
Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease And You Can’t - joshfraser
http://www.wbur.org/2012/06/27/lyme-vaccine
======
newbie12
There are actually clinical trials underway for a new Lyme vaccine:
[http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/260471.php](http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/260471.php)

The core problem with the original vaccine is that 80% effectiveness is
terrible-- that's not sufficient, you still need to take all normal
precautions. The second problem is that many people at high risk for Lyme may
already have it, or have other tick-borne diseases that are difficult to
diagnose and can be chronic-- that probably explains the "side effects"
problem.

Lyme is at the center of a number of nasty bacteria and parasites that you can
get from a deer tick. The most effective thing we can do is reduce deer
populations.

~~~
Alex3917
> The most effective thing we can do is reduce deer populations.

The disease comes from mice, not deer. Deer do help spread the ticks around,
but reducing the deer population wouldn't significantly help with lyme disease
prevalence.

I'm actually currently on roughly day 14 of doxycycline for possibly having it
or some other tick infection. I got bit on the shoulder by a nymph, found at
somewhere between 18 - 24 hours later still unengorged. I then got the 200mg
prophylaxis later that day, meaning that my odds of getting anything should
have been less than 1%.

I never developed a lyme rash, only a local rash, but my shoulder and arm
started hurting within a couple days. I tried to convince myself it was just
from using my laptop even though I've never had any RSI problems, or else just
from being tense from worrying about it, but it was still sore on and off for
the next 20 days. Finally woke up and my whole arm was burning, so I drove
down to the pharmacy and had the scrip filled within the hour. It's
frustrating though because there's really no way to know if you have it in the
first place, and also no way to know if you're actually cured once you finish
the treatment. The symptoms did go away pretty much as soon as I started
taking the meds, but who knows what that really means.

~~~
johnthedebs
While mice spread the bacteria to a new generation of ticks, reducing deer
populations apparently does have a dramatic effect on their ability to spread
the disease. I'm on a mobile device, so the best I can do right now is
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_disease#Management_of_host...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_disease#Management_of_host_animals)

~~~
Alex3917
Ahh interesting, I did see a bunch of sites/studies suggesting otherwise, but
looking at them again they seem somewhat dubious. My bad.

------
BorgHunter
The New York Times wrote an article about the Lyme disease vaccine in 1999. It
gives a bit of a different perspective. The long and short of it is, it seemed
too new and too much of a pain, and a lot of people didn't see a benefit due
to the presence of other tick-borne diseases that necessitated the same checks
for ticks even with the vaccine.

[http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/13/nyregion/lukewarm-
response...](http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/13/nyregion/lukewarm-response-to-
new-lyme-vaccine.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm)

~~~
_delirium
An interesting feature of lyme disease specifically (unlike some other tick-
borne diseases) is that tick checks are very effective, because it doesn't
migrate from the tick to the human bloodstream in sufficient quantities to
produce infection until around 36-48 hours after attachment.

(Source:
[http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/transmission/](http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/transmission/))

~~~
tocomment
Hmm, so I wonder if short term tick exposure actually functions as a
rudimentary vaccine then? It would expose your immune system to the bacteria
in very small quantities?

------
evincarofautumn
When she was in high school, my girlfriend contracted Lyme disease
unknowingly. By a mad stroke of luck, it was soon killed by a round of
antibiotics for an unrelated illness. However, she still suffers from nightly
joint pain; having seen the suffering (relatively minor, thank goodness)
brought on by such a simple thing to prevent, I would like nothing more than
to see a human vaccine become widespread.

~~~
newbie12
A friend of mine in college suffered terribly from Lyme in the early 1990s,
when the disease wasn't as readily diagnosed and treatment protocols weren't
established. He lost 100 pounds and dropped out of school. Lyme today is the
most common infectious disease in New England.

~~~
616c
I knew someone similarly in my youth, when he was between 10 and 13 years old.
He would walk around with a gas nebulizer that would give him the necessary
meds intravenously, and get the stint in properly I was told by him and his
mother was an experience filled with pain, screaming, and terror. Even with a
friend who mostly able to live a normal life, the pain difficulty of the
disease and treatment literally scared me for years after.

------
WillyF
My Dad was part of the Lyme Disease vaccine trials. He ended up receiving the
placebo, but was then given the option to get the actual vaccine and he took
it. If I remember correctly, it didn't last that long, so it has almost
certainly worn off by now.

------
fnordfnordfnord
> _" But then opponents spoke out: self-described ‘vaccine victims’ — perhaps
> similar to people today who claim the MMR vaccine causes autism. Back then,
> they said that the Lyme vaccine gave them arthritis."_

Okay, vaccines _can_ harm people. It's a fact, get over it, now let's see an
honest discussion with more facts and less name-calling.

> _" There were a number of East Coast lawyers who started putting together
> class-action lawsuits."_

So? Vaccine manufacturers are immune from lawsuit. Cases are tried in vaccine
court[1]. Awards are paid by the gov't.

> _" many drug companies say not they’re not interested in working on one."_

There is no excuse for this. If we have to suffer the perversion of market
forces seen in our vaccine industry, there should be no excuses for companies
who don't want to produce an existing product merely because it isn't
profitable _enough_.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_court](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_court)

~~~
jussij
> Okay, vaccines can harm people. It's a fact, get over it

It's also a known fact Andrew Wakefield’s 1998 research paper, that tried to
discredit the MMR vaccine by linking it to other complications is fraudulent
and wrong.

That research paper was nothing more than a work of fiction.

The problem is, decades on _' vaccine victims'_ still quote Andrew Wakefield’s
research paper as a reason to not vaccinate.

Those are the 'vaccine victims' he was referring to and they are alive and
well, working hard to bring back the iron lung hospital wards of the 1950s
with their stupidity and ignorance.

[http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/goldenage/wonder/Archive/Images/Ir...](http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/goldenage/wonder/Archive/Images/Iron%20Lungs.jpg)

[http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/01/what-
ame...](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/01/what-america-
looked-like-polio-children-paralyzed-in-iron-lungs/251098/)

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
>It's also a known fact Andrew Wakefield’s 1998 research paper, that tried to
discredit the MMR vaccine by linking it to other complications is fraudulent
and wrong.

1\. Straw man

2\. The paper didn't "try to discredit the MMR vaccine" it said: _" We
identified associated gastrointestinal disease and developmental regression in
a group of previously normal children, which was generally associated in time
with possible environmental triggers."_ and recommended/asked for further
studies. It may have been dead wrong. I don't care. It was never the sort of
thing that a reasonable person would base a decision to vaccinate solely upon.

>That research paper was nothing more than a work of fiction.

Did you _read_ it? It's a pretty low quality paper, it was a "study" of 12
patients. Hardly enough statistics to make any strong conclusion. No
reasonable person would consider it such a strong statement.

>The problem is, decades on 'vaccine victims' still quote Andrew Wakefield’s
research paper as a reason to not vaccinate.

They don't need to do that. They can just use the CDC data or the NVIC data.
Or the drug companies' own data (when they've been forced to release it)

>Those are the 'vaccine victims' he was referring to and they are alive and
well, working hard to bring back the iron lung hospital wards of the 1950s
with their stupidity and ignorance.

I like your links to photos of Polio victims. Thankfully, people back then
weren't afraid to notice that the first generation of Polio vaccines actually
gave Polio to some who took them. Instead of denying the possibility that
their vaccine was imperfect, or telling everyone "our vaccine is good enough!,
sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet", they
improved/perfected the vaccine. Good for them. Shame on their successors.

~~~
jussij
> The paper didn't "try to discredit the MMR vaccine"

Smells like an attempt to discredit MMR to me:

 _According to a major investigative feature by Brian Deer, in 1996 Dr
Wakefield was retained by the solicitor Richard Barr to carry out
investigations on a number of children with autism and bowel problems (1). The
object of these investigations was to confirm parents ' claims that their
children's behavioural and digestive symptoms had been caused by the MMR
vaccine, so that they could claim compensation from the vaccine
manufacturers._

 _It appears that four or five of the children included in the series of 12
cases reported in the Lancet were in the group represented by Barr._

[http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CA40D.htm](http://www.spiked-
online.com/Articles/0000000CA40D.htm)

> Thankfully, people back then weren't afraid to notice that the first
> generation of Polio vaccines actually gave Polio to some who took them.

I'm sure they knew. I'm sure they also knew that for children Polio caused
paralysis in about 1 in 1000 cases.

They may well have feared the vaccine, but I suspect their fear of the
consequences of Polio were far greater.

The simple fact is vaccination works. Just look how Polio has been effectively
irradiated thanks to vaccination:

[http://www.post-polio.org/ir-usa.html](http://www.post-polio.org/ir-usa.html)

Edit: Statistics below from page above

Total Polio Cases

From: 1937 - 1997 = 457,088

From: 1998 - 2008 = 1

To decide whether to use a vaccine that can eliminate 40,000 annual cases of
Polio and the only side effect might be it _could be harmful_ to a few people
is a no brainer.

To use your own words, sure _vaccines can harm_ a very small number of people,
but that same vaccine will be extremely beneficial to huge numbers of people.

People need to _get over it_ and get vaccinated.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
>Smells like an attempt to discredit MMR to me:

 _" We have identified a chronic enterocolitis in children that may be related
to neuropsychiatric dysfunction. In most cases, onset of symptoms was after
measles, mumps, and rubella immunisation. Further investigations are needed to
examine this syndrome and its possible relation to this vaccine. "_

It was a study of twelve (12!) children! To credit Wakefield with sole
responsibility of the "MMR scare" over that simple statement is crazy. There
is no way that Wakefield's paper single-handedly sparked and sustained this
debacle for some fifteen years now.

What really smells in this affair is Brian Deer, a journalist in the employ of
a director of GSK (James Murdoch), who himself _made_ the initial report
against Wakefield et al to the British GMC while simultaneously reporting on
the scandal (while denying that he had anything to do with the initial
report). As bad as Wakefield's paper was, it was nothing compared to the farce
that followed in the form of the GMC hearings, BMJ's character assassination,
and later retraction[2] The whole thing is a farce from one end to the other.

>The simple fact is vaccination works.

Of course it does. Stop with the straw man already. But, vaccines aren't
flawless. They aren't perfectly safe, and in some cases the risks outweigh the
benefits. Effort should be concentrated on perfecting vaccines, not denial of
fallibility. Until then, a proper weighting of risks and benefits is required.

>People need to get over it and get vaccinated.

Shall we sign you up for Gardasil, and perhaps the new Acne vaccine? Have you
had a Rotavirus booster? Of course you have. Better safe than sorry!

[2][http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d1678.long](http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d1678.long)

------
balqan
Those that oppose the vaccine are not forced to get it. They should stop
messing with those that want it.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
The reason for the suit was that SmithKline allegedly knew that 30% of people
were predisposed to having an incurable adverse reaction, and failed to
disclose or warn of that fact after it became known, and that SmithKline also
failed to disclose the fact that (frequent) periodic boosters were required to
maintain immunity.

[http://www3.jsonline.com/bym/news/ap/jul03/ap-lyme-
vaccine-s...](http://www3.jsonline.com/bym/news/ap/jul03/ap-lyme-vaccine-
se071003.asp)

------
fenugreek
Does the dog vaccine work in humans?

~~~
Qantourisc
I'm no medical expert (of any sort), but my gut feeling says yes. Why? You are
trying to learn your immune system to fight of something. This is usually
learned by adding a dead(ish) infection.

Possible problems are: A) Not being tuned to humans. B) The method of
immunising doesn't work for humans. C) The lymes aren't dead enough for humans
and you get lymes deases.

Ow: and ask a fair, honest, open-minded and well educated doctor who will do
the research on it.

------
lnanek2
As someone from a high Lyme area, this doesn't really matter, because any
doctor I've met will just give you an acne antibiotic prescription to prevent
Lyme if you ask.

------
tocomment
Has anyone tried making a tick trap? I read once that you could build
something simple with dry ice on a piece of cardboard surrounding by double
sided tape. The ticks are attracted to the CO2 and get stuck on the tape.

I wonder why there are no simple commercial products like that?

Other ideas I've had is a company that runs dogs or horses around your
property for a few days hopefully to pick up all the ticks. They obviously
then carefully remove the ticks from the animals.

~~~
DennisP
Along those lines, someone's making a tick-killing robot:
[http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-07-10/local/40575624...](http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-07-10/local/40575624_1_ticks-
lyme-disease-carbon-dioxide)

------
cantankerous
The ticks are so terrible this year in Missouri. It's not clear if we have
proper Lyme disease here. They call it "Lyme-like" diseases. It's relatively
uncommon, still, I think. Lyme disease hasn't been isolated here in a
replicated study.

I sure am glad of this. I'd never go in the woods (brambles) if that were the
case.

I'm also glad you can't get any diseases from the chiggers. Damn those
chiggers.

------
pathy
I truly wish that a lyme disease vaccine gets released in the near future. I
got it twice (!) within two years when I was younger and boy was I sick. At
least the first time. It is not fun at all, though I seem have managed without
any permanent problems as far as I know.

I did not get sick until something like 4 months after getting bitten, which
lead in turn lead to the diagnosis being delayed a lot. Not fun at all.

------
tocomment
From my personal experience places I go will either have lots of ticks or
none. The best explanatory variable I can come up with is the deer to human
ratio. In places with a lot of deer but few humans the ticks are all just
waiting around to bite people that come by. But I'm guessing in places with
lots of people, other people have already come by and "used up the tick
supply".

~~~
gaustin
Climate plays a big role too. Ticks have a pretty narrow band where they are
active. We have ticks in my area for a couple of weeks in the damp, cool
spring. After that it's too dry and hot.

------
tieTYT
Off topic, I know: This site is driving me nuts because the up/down arrows
don't scroll. Anyone else having this issue?

