
A Typology of Dumplings (2019) - nkurz
https://borstell.github.io/dumplings.html
======
CoreDumpling
Interesting to see where the zeros show up on the distance matrix (aside from
the diagonal). The similarity between _manti_ and _shumai_ ( _siomay_ in the
article) was quite a surprise:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manti_(food)#/media/File:Ouzb%...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manti_\(food\)#/media/File:Ouzb%C3%A9kistan-
Ravioli_\(1\).jpg)

vs.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shumai#/media/File:%E7%83%A7%E...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shumai#/media/File:%E7%83%A7%E9%BA%A6.jpg)

But that's also where I noticed both _guotie_ and _wonton_ were on the list,
although _guotie_ is basically a generic term for "potsticker." It's usually a
fried _jiaozi_ although sometimes a fried _wonton_ is also called a _guotie_.

~~~
hcheung
Traditionally Guotie is different from Jiaozi, it is a long roll with both
side open, often with the same ingredients as jiaozi (cabbage with pork or
mutton), but nowadays people are lazy and made guotie using jiaozi. You still
be able to find traditional guotie in Taipei, but sadly seldom in China.

------
mozz100
Love this. Reminds me of when I tried a git-based taxonomy of sauces a while
back.

[https://www.rmorrison.net/mnemozzyne/2019/01/20/saucy-
chat/](https://www.rmorrison.net/mnemozzyne/2019/01/20/saucy-chat/)

Here’s the diff between tartar sauce and mayonnaise

[https://github.com/mozz100/sauces/compare/mayonnaise..tartar](https://github.com/mozz100/sauces/compare/mayonnaise..tartar)

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hcheung
It is quite a comprehensive list. But for Chinese varieties, it missed Har Gow
(Pronounced as Ha Gau in Cantonese or Xia Jiao in Mandarin) - Shrimp and
bamboo shoots with wrapper made from Wheat starch), it is key Dim Sum dish
from Cantonese cuisine, it looks like Jiaozi but different in both how the
wrapper is made and the ingredients. Jiaozi is available only in North China,
but Har Gow is only available in Cantonese cuisine. If you want to know if a
Cantonese restaurant is good or bad, taste and inspect their Har Gow.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Har_gow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Har_gow)

------
tomo-makes
Great article. I am really interested how those dishes look like and
quoted/mapped pictures from Wikipedia to the original graph. Want to
experience all the tastes some day.
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ecng5g0U0AAY_8c?format=jpg&name=...](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ecng5g0U0AAY_8c?format=jpg&name=medium)

I could not catch what are "British" "American" "Cotswold" such location
names. Do those point local style dumplings?

------
1propionyl
> However, in the case of German Knödel and Czech knedlík, I decided to
> include both simply based on the fact that whereas the former was listed as
> potentially being served with a sweet filling, I did not observe this with
> the latter.

There are absolutely sweet Czech dumplings. Many kinds, usually with some sort
of stone fruit (cherries, whole apricots, peaches, etc) but any kind of berry
will do. They are also boiled, but they tend to have a different thinner dough
that is farmer's/curd cheese and flour based, rather than being bready. They
take a lot of practice to make well. If you're using smaller fruits like
cherries or blueberries, they're near impossible to form without the trained
hands of a Czech grandma.

Apricot ones are my favorite. You slice them in half, take out the pit, and
dress them with grated/crumbled farmer's cheese, melted butter, and sugar.

~~~
dsdkglskd
Ahoj

1\. What you call "farmer's cheese" is "tvaroh" which is called "quark" in
English. It's not cheese, that would be gross.

2\. Leaving the pit inside of the fruit that you wrap in a dumpling is
sacrilegious. The fruit should be pitted!

~~~
1propionyl
In the US, you have to make do with what you can get... and "farmer's cheese"
differs a lot throughout the US. In many places, it's pretty close to quark
(when crumbled and with a little hydration added, at least).

The only big difference in preparation in many parts of the US (especially
those with Eastern or Central European heritage) is how long it's pressed.
It's otherwise the same thing: acid-curdled dairy with most of the moisture
removed. A little Wondra or 00 flour helps if it won't take the right
consistency.

As for the pit, it'd be fine either way. It's a bit easier to form with the
pit in, and won't hurt the flavor at all, but removing it would be just fine
too.

------
nkurz
Since this is getting a few votes, I might as well ask the question that led
me to this page: How do Belorussian Kalduny differ from Polish Pierogi,
Ukranian Vareniki, and Russian Pelmeni?

~~~
wiremaus
To steal mercilessly from Wikipedia:

 _The most important difference between pelmeni, varenyky, and pierogi is the
thickness of the dough shell—in pelmeni and vareniki this is as thin as
possible, and the proportion of filling to dough is usually higher. Pelmeni
are never served with a sweet filling, which distinguishes them from vareniki
and Polish pierogi, which sometimes are. Also, the fillings in pelmeni are
usually raw, while the fillings of vareniki and pierogi are typically
precooked._

Those distinctions seem about right in my experience, and I eat all three
fairly often, since I go to a lot of cultural festivals.

~~~
nkurz
This seems like an accurate description. Unfortunately, these three are the
ones I'm more familiar with, and I was hoping to understand how Kalduny
compare to these. The Wikipedia article for them
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalduny](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalduny))
basically says they are similar, but doesn't really get into the differences.

------
dhosek
The article on knödel on wikipedia
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knödel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knödel)
is a hot mess. I was curious to see a distinction between knedlik and knodel
so I looked at this and, aside from its over-reliance on German terminology,
it seems to contradict itself internally. I grew up with English terms for the
dumplings that I ate, which were primarily plum dumplings (very rarely with
other fruit) and bread dumplings. In my limited experience, knödel is just the
German word for what Czechs call knedlik, but I just eat them, I'm not an
authority.

~~~
eru
In German, Knödel can be both a generic term for some class of dumplings or
mean something more specific. There are regional differences and a lot of
context.

Lots of dumplings also have multiple names in different regions.

One of my favourite names is Dampfnudeln.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dampfnudel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dampfnudel)
The names means steam(ed) noodles, but they are a kind of dumpling.

------
ccktlmazeltov
This lacks a huge amount of variety from Asian dumplings. What about
xiaolongbao? Or shengjianbao? Or shuijianbao?

~~~
tasogare
Agree. In fact before clicking the link I thought it was about Chinese
dumplings. There a probably enough variety to warrant a whole separate
article.

------
baby
If you live in SF, you have the chance of tasting one of the best dumplings in
the world: “dumpling specialist”.

I hate giving out this gem because it’s such a small place and it sucks when
these places go popular. But holy shit this is next level.

~~~
raywu
Are they open during the pandemic? Oh man, gtg.

~~~
Redoubts
If not, there are a few dumpling wholesalers in the area. Great way to stock
up the freezer.

~~~
sowbug
Do you have specific recommendations? Our freezer is nearly empty.

~~~
Redoubts
"Asian American Food Company" / Kingdom of Dumplings, and Yummy Dumpling.

~~~
raywu
Is Yummy open atm? I used to live down Irving, but have only tasted their
dumplings at King of Noodles across the street.

------
staycoolboy
I think this is great because it invites discussion. As an Italian, I'd like
to point out that tortellini can be fried, shallow, in a skillet, and tossed
with hearty greens.

~~~
eru
You can fry almost any kind of dumpling, and get something interesting and
tasty.

------
zubi
Fun article indeed but the data the author has collected, however, is sloppy.
Being Turkish, I needed to verify "mantı" on the binary coded features table I
and saw, to my dismay, that only the "steamed" is marked "1" among the cooking
options, which is wrong even if you consider all variations. Even the
wikipedia page correctly states that it is usually boiled or baked.

~~~
grenoire
I was just about to reply saying this, I'm a little disappointed in the
author's misunderstanding of our dumpling :'(

------
gfaure
I had no idea khinkali were so similar to xiaolongbao!

------
stared
The next step: dumplings2vec, or some other dimensionality reduction.

BTW: I am curious about word vectors for dumplings. For each dumpling kind,
there is some variation of servings, size, culture and everything. I guess
that the word usage tells a lot. For general food quantification, see
[https://www.nature.com/articles/srep00196](https://www.nature.com/articles/srep00196),
[https://jaan.io/food2vec-augmented-cooking-machine-
intellige...](https://jaan.io/food2vec-augmented-cooking-machine-
intelligence/) and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingredient-
flavor_network](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingredient-flavor_network).

(A personal note: a strong fan of "pierogi ruskie" here.)

------
buss
The unanswered question is: is a jelly donut a sweet dumpling?

~~~
082349872349872
By commutativity of the copula, a jelly donut is a former US President. Now
the remaining question is: was JFK a sweet dumpling?

(guess someone with better connections will have to ask this no-longer-little
girl: [https://i1.wp.com/jfk.blogs.archives.gov/wp-
content/uploads/...](https://i1.wp.com/jfk.blogs.archives.gov/wp-
content/uploads/2020/03/JFKWHP-KN-22363.jpg?w=723&ssl=1) )

------
strogonoff
Is Korean “mandu” (만두) listed under some other name? Can’t spot it in the
dataset.

------
chaonaut129
In my 20 I travelled the world when people asked me what I learned from it I
always replied : There is no place in the world without dumplings

------
bestest
I noticed there's a Lithuanian "Cepelinai" mentioned there. "Cepelinai" aren't
dumplings in a traditional sense, mainly because there's no flour used for the
outer shell - only potatoes.

The real dumpling in Lithuanian is "Koldūnai".

------
mcnamaratw
Very good, but they left out quenelles!
[https://www.frenchcountryfood.com/recipes/fish-or-
seafood/qu...](https://www.frenchcountryfood.com/recipes/fish-or-
seafood/quenelles.html)

------
dukoid
Would be nice if the properties would be ordered by diversity (most
homogeneous leftmost, most diverse right), and then the whole list ordered by
binary values O:)

------
Konohamaru
Wonderful! But now how would one organize it into a coherent structure like
the Köppen climate classification?

------
red_admiral
Made me smile. Also a lot of interesting words that could be used for future
startup companies here :)

------
raywu
As a dumpling enthusiast, thank you OP. @OP noodles are deconstructed
dumplings. What do you think?

------
joshu
IHNJ, IJLS "eigendumpling"

------
mrpetruccio
It's good that it has pierogi, but it miss varenyky and also paliushky

------
perl4ever
No spaetzle?

~~~
eru
Spätzle are great, but calling them dumplings would really stretch the
definition past breaking.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sp%C3%A4tzle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sp%C3%A4tzle)

~~~
paranoidrobot
There are things called dumplings that don't have a filling. Both sweet and
savoury.

Eg Golden Syrup Dumplings, and what we call a British or Irish Dumpling served
atop a stew.

We also called Spätzle 'dumplings', too, and usually served with a
Austrian/Hungarian style goulash.

I think the key differentiator from pasta is that they're a thicker item
rather than thin-walled tubes/shapes or strands.

~~~
rswail
If Spätzle are dumplings, then so are gnocchi. Fight me!

~~~
082349872349872
TFA has gnocchi and matzo balls, so I think spätzle ought to be admissible as
0-dumplings (where a filled dumpling is a 1-dumpling). Proper dumplings would
then be those dumplings with at least one layer of filling. Are there any
2-dumplings or higher, the dumpling equivalent of turducken?

(future work: classification of dumplings with handles, immersions of Klein
Dumplings in cooking oil, ...)

~~~
Scarblac
In the North of the Netherlands, there exists the _eierbal_ - a hard boiled
egg, with a layer of ragout, and then a crust. Then deep fried.

I love that I can mention it and be on topic on HN. I now live in the middle
of the country and miss it.

------
gambiting
How the F do you not have "Pierogi" on this list is beyond me. It's basically
Polish national food at this point. And who calls Pierogi "Kluski" lol.

~~~
thiht
Pierogi is in the list, did you try to ctrl-f?

