
Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly - pinars
http://www.mercurynews.com/peninsula/ci_29110712/mountain-view-google-self-driving-car-pulled-over
======
finnn
They didn't link to either of their sources, so I went and found them:

Mountain View Police Department blog post:
[http://mountainviewpoliceblog.com/2015/11/12/inquiring-
minds...](http://mountainviewpoliceblog.com/2015/11/12/inquiring-minds-want-
to-know/)

Google Self-Driving Car Project Google+ post:
[https://plus.google.com/+SelfDrivingCar/posts/j9ouVZSZnRf](https://plus.google.com/+SelfDrivingCar/posts/j9ouVZSZnRf)

~~~
declan
Thanks! That MV police blog post says the traffic officer stopped the car to
"educate the operators about impeding traffic per 22400(a) of the California
Vehicle Code."

That section of the vehicle code says, emphasis added: "No person shall drive
upon a highway at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and
reasonable movement of traffic, unless the reduced speed is necessary for safe
operation, because of a grade, _or in compliance with law._ "
[https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d11/c...](https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d11/c7/a2/22400)

If Google's self-driving cars are limited by law to 25mph, and the car was not
exceeding 25mph, then it was "in compliance with the law" and 22400(a) doesn't
apply. It would be allowed to impede or block traffic, even if we human
drivers would really prefer it to be going 45mph.

~~~
kissickas
Is that required by law? FTA '"We've capped the speed of our prototype
vehicles at 25 mph for safety reasons," the post explained. "We want them to
feel friendly and approachable, rather than zooming scarily through
neighborhood streets."'

Sounds like Google's decision to me. Either way, it's not a highway, so that
section seems irrelevant. And "in compliance with the law" is quite a broad
redirect.

~~~
deathanatos
> Either way, it's not a highway, so that section seems irrelevant.

(IANAL) "Highway" means road or street[1]:

> 360\. "Highway" is a way or place of whatever nature, publicly maintained
> and open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel. Highway
> includes street.

(I've never actually heard highway used in common speech that way; only in the
vehicle code, but that I think is what would count here.) The article also
seems to indicate this was El Camino Real, which is also CA State Route 82.

[1]:
[https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d1/36...](https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d1/360)

It should also be here[2], but that page is blank for some odd reason.

[2]:
[https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayexpand...](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayexpandedbranch.xhtml?tocCode=VEH&division=1.&title=&part=&chapter=&article=)

~~~
DonHopkins
According to Woody Guthrie's fairly common usage of the term, you can walk on
a highway in the United States of America, and nobody living can ever make you
turn back or stop you. [1]

[1]
[https://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/This_Land.htm](https://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/This_Land.htm)

------
jws
The Google cars are licensed as Neighborhood Electric Vehicles.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicl...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle)

This means they are legally limited to 25mph and legally allowed to drive on
roadways with speed limits up to 45mph.

NEVs let you have very light weight, inexpensive vehicles with exceptional
economy… that would be instant death traps in a high speed collision. They
don't undergo ordinary crash testing. Think of them as posh golf carts.

I looked into getting an NEV, but most of my local streets are 30mph and I
can't in good conscience drive down them at 25mph.

~~~
Joeri
It's no more dangerous than driving a motorbike. People do that all the time
without worrying about the risk.

~~~
alistairSH
While they may not "worry" about the risk, they are certainly cognizant of it.
Most wear helmets and gloves, many wear armor and leathers.

In the case of a NEV, it's a 4-wheel car with doors... Unless told otherwise,
most drivers are going to assume they meet passenger car safety standards.

------
mberning
I think about this often. Every day in rush hour traffic I have to take a
number of calculated risks in order to get to work. This usually crops up when
making a turn onto a highly congested road. I could easily see a self driving
car being too conservative to find a gap and pull out, leading to a furious
string of drivers behind it.

~~~
sundvor
The problem would be resolved quite nicely if _all_ cars were self driving,
interconnected, and could be governed by a master plan.

~~~
ajmurmann
The possible improvements would truly need mind blowing. I can't even think of
a reason why those cars would have to stop asking the way if everything goes
right. There would be no more need for traffic lights or stop signs to
coordinate traffic between cars. You would still need them for pedestrians.
However, if the traffic lights are integrated I the same system as the cars
then the cars can just adjust their speed to not have to stop at the light.
Their gain in fuel efficiency would be huge! As long as nobody jaywalks or we
have cross walks without traffic lights or bicycles..

~~~
laichzeit0
It would also be great when a traffic light turned green that all cars started
moving at exactly the same time, as opposed to the delay where every car waits
for the car in front of them to start moving with human drivers.

~~~
executesorder66
Fuck I hate it when people do that i.e. 99.99% of the time. Just go as soon as
the person in front of you starts going and build your gap by accelerating
slightly slower than the person in front of you _after_ you are on the other
side of the traffic light.

~~~
Symbiote
Without having a gap before you start, how do you plan on stopping in time if
the car in front stops suddenly? Which they might do if they see someone
running the red light, or a pedestrian thinking there's just enough time to
run across.

~~~
lsaferite
The needed gap is proportional to your speed. Starting speed from a stop is
quite low so the gap needed is low. As you gain speed you expand the gap.

~~~
undersuit
You can't all accelerate at the same rates and expect the distance between the
cars to increase. The slow trundle off the starting line is needed to
establish following distance.

~~~
executesorder66
That is why I said accelerate _slower_ than the person in front of you to
build a gap. (Once you are on the other side of the traffic light)

When the light goes green everyone should go at the exact same time and
acceleration. Because you just started moving your speed is very low, so you
don't need a large following distance.

You are clearly one of the millions of people that doesn't understand this.

------
sundvor
Well I for one would find a vehicle travelling at 40km/h in a 60 zone
incredibly annoying, even if they're legally allowed to travel that slow.

~~~
raldi
How do you feel about cyclists on 35mph (60kph) roads?

~~~
samcheng
I hate seeing cyclists on the very same road in question (El Camino Real in
Mountain View). There is a substantial bike 'boulevard' network of side
streets made safer for bicyclists, so it's mostly ignorance that brings people
to bike down El Camino.

Check out the line of red dots in this accident map:

[http://www.mv-voice.com/news/2012/09/13/over-200-bike-
relate...](http://www.mv-voice.com/news/2012/09/13/over-200-bike-related-
injuries-in-five-years)

Considering that cyclists are expressly encouraged to use other roads, this
thoroughfare is MUCH more dangerous to a cyclist than most of the rest of the
city.

~~~
DrScump
_There is a substantial bike 'boulevard' network of side streets made safer
for bicyclists_

NOT that is segregated from through traffic (as opposed to Bryant St, in Palo
Alto, on which car through-traffic is blocked every couple of blocks.

Best route I found parallel to El Camino was Church/Latham to the Palo Alto
border, then a slight jog over to the pedestrian/bike bridge behind the
shopping center (was Tower Records for years, forgot what it is now). Then,
work your way to Bryant.

~~~
samcheng
Yeah, actually, the bike route network for Mountain View is really terrible in
comparison to Palo Alto! But that's a different discussion... I see bicyclists
on El Camino in Palo Alto at night without lights all the time!

~~~
oceanpumpkins
I'm really excited that the towns around here are contemplating making the
bicycle boulevard network easier to use AND making El Camino safer to bicycle
on.

Right now there's often an unpleasant choice when traveling by bicycle: take
stressful main streets or spend 50% more time navigating complicated winding
side streets. Making the main streets less stressful and making the side
streets more direct should make both choices better.

It'll probably take many years but the local governments are really starting
to think about it a lot and there's even some funding appearing.

------
RobotCaleb
In autonomous mode do they pull over properly if A. getting pulled over and B.
emergency vehicles are whirring about doing their thing?

~~~
gcr
I can't wait for a hacker to make a "Get-out-of-my-way" gun out of blinking
lights that makes all the Google cars in front of her pull over.

Maybe she could build it out of IR LEDs, so it's not obvious to humans. :)

~~~
wpietri
Impersonating a police car is, unsurprisingly, already a crime:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_impersonation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_impersonation)

States have similar laws for other emergency vehicles. E.g.:
[http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/2...](http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/28/00947.htm&Title=28&DocType=ARS)

~~~
anon4
Does this apply when you're not fooling any person? As in, you're not trying
to impersonate a police officer per se, you're fooling the vehicle's police
detection into assuming a police vehicle is coming.

~~~
hinoka
> you're fooling the vehicle's police detection

Sounds like impersonation to me.

The "person" in impersonation refers to the entity being imitated, not the
entity being deceived.

~~~
anon4
Yeah, but is a couple of infrared lights enough to be considered "police"?
What if I yell "VWEEEWOOOWEEEOOO" and someone mistakes that for a legitimate
police siren -- am I still impersonating police, or is that person incredibly
stupid?

~~~
DanBC
intent matters.

If you say "Here's some infra-red lights. They simulate enough of a police car
for other cars to change their behaviours" you're not going to have a fun time
in court.

~~~
brazzledazzle
Why does everyone think that the entire law system is like tax code and
finance laws? You (usually) can't just break a law because you found a
technical loophole.

------
Broken_Hippo
This car was driving a bit too conservatively: However, this highlights my own
experience trying to follow traffic laws. First, speeding: I figured out that
the time saved speeding wasnt enough to actually help - theoretically, I could
save 2 minutes if things went well. It is upsetting when people follow laws
and safety instead of normal local social driving standards.

So long as we are mixing drivers and driverless, I think we'll need to close
the gap while the problem exists. Laws that reflect driving and better
enforcement paired with continual updating to driverless cars so that they can
safely manuever in traffic without causing problems.

~~~
ubernostrum
Safety and posted speed limits are often not super compatible; the _safest_
thing, in most road conditions, is to be driving relatively close to the speed
of the surrounding traffic, even if that means exceeding the posted speed
limit.

(in other words, speed itself is not dangerous except in certain situations --
like sharp curves or wet/snowy/icy roads -- speed _differential_ is dangerous)

~~~
nshepperd
You're basically saying that everyone should defect because everyone else
does. Which may well be true for a single human driver, but is probably not
how autonomous cars as a whole should be programmed.

Nor does it support the claim that "speed itself is not dangerous". If
everyone were driving slower, everyone would be safer (which we may actually
be able to achieve once a sufficient number of law-abiding robot cars displace
human drivers).

~~~
Dylan16807
>If everyone were driving slower, everyone would be safer

But that's always true. All the way down to 10mph speed limits.

The job of speed limits is not maximum safety at the cost of everything else.

In practice, people can tell the design speed of a road and mostly follow
that, no matter what the signs say. Defecting or not doesn't matter very much.

~~~
Robin_Message
> In practice, people can tell the design speed of a road

I think there have been quite a few studies showing most people think they are
above average at driving. I don't think people do this at all. I think they
are overconfident, hurrying apes, with no real conception of stopping distance
or kinetic energy, aiming to just miss each other with these multi-ton
projectiles. It's sadly not surprising how many people are killed on the
roads.

~~~
terryf
> It's sadly not surprising how many people are killed on the roads.

In 2013, US, total number of traffic deaths was 32719. Total number of miles
driven: 2,946,000,000,000.

Miles driven per one death: 90,039,426

It's not even one-in-a-million chance of dying. It's one-in-90-million chance.
That is really very good odds. Driving is really quite safe and getting safer
all the time. Cars manufactured today have safety systems and braking ability,
traction control and other safety measures that are basically incomparable to
cars made 20-30 years ago. The speed limits are still the same for everyone
though. The whole point of a car is to quickly get from one location to
another.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _It 's not even one-in-a-million chance of dying. It's one-in-90-million
> chance. That is really very good odds._

For you individually. Multiply that by the amount of drivers and the average
amount of miles driven, and you get multiple deaths per day - almost one
hundred a day, actually, in 2013.

The individual odds make drivers feel safe - and thus behave like idiots - and
the result is tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths annually.

------
jrapdx3
Going at an unusually low speed can attract police attention up here in
Oregon. The legalization of recreation cannabis has increased the number of
non-alcohol intoxicated drivers. Apparently one sign of DUI of cannabis is
going too slow for traffic conditions.

AFAIK no driverless cars around here (yet), but there are plenty of other
potential hazards for motorists, like pedestrians and bicycles on narrow,
twisty, dark and wet streets this time of year.

Ideally it calls for everyone to be patient, careful and vigilant. Above all
be thankful if born with great reflexes, on the road alas only a few are so
gifted.

------
callesgg
Personally i think it is quite obvious that a self driving car a tool that you
use. And therefore you as a user is accountable for the actions/damage you
inflict with your tool.

No different that using a gun and shooting someone by accident.

~~~
jfoster
A gun isn't very autonomous, though. As tools become increasingly autonomous,
it might not always be fair to place blame on the end user rather than the
manufacturer.

~~~
amelius
I agree with this. But why use a gun-analogy when you can use a car-analogy?

~~~
callesgg
Did honestly not think of it :O

But i like to go with stuff that is emotionally loaded when i compare stuff.

------
nisdec
I'm curious how it works. How does the Google car know that it's getting
pulled over?

~~~
dheera
It probably doesn't. Google doesn't let their cars roam freely yet; they
always have someone inside the car.

------
Animats
I thought Google was building the little 25MPH self driving cars for senior
communities, campuses, and such. But they're running them on El Camino Real.

They apparently registered the small self driving cars as what California
calls a "Neighborhood Electric Vehicle".[0] A NEV is limited to 25 MPH, and
cannot be operated on a road with a speed limit above 35 MPH. It's one step
above a golf cart. Local municipalities can limit their use on faster streets,
if they so choose, but they don't have to.

There's a related flap over high speed electric bicycles. They're supposed to
be limited to 20MPH, but some can reach 40MPH, and a few can reach 50MPH.[1]
They only have bicycle-grade wheels, brakes, and pothole tolerance[2], which
is a problem. At what point is a driver's license, or a motorcycle license,
required, what's allowed on a bike path, and do you have to have pedals?[3]
There are now three classes of electric bikes in California, one of which
doesn't have pedals but is still considered a "bicycle". There are also
electric mopeds and electric motorcycles.

Trying to fit all these vehicles on the same road and bike path system is
difficult.

[0]
[https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1dmy&urile=wcm:path:/dmv_...](https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1dmy&urile=wcm:path:/dmv_content_en/dmv/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/ffvr37)
[1] [https://www.electricbike.com/stealth-bomber-
review/](https://www.electricbike.com/stealth-bomber-review/) [2]
[http://www.levassociation.com/worldwide-
legislation](http://www.levassociation.com/worldwide-legislation) [3]
[https://www.electricbike.com/california-ebike-
laws/](https://www.electricbike.com/california-ebike-laws/)

~~~
darkr
I regularly exceed 40mph on my road bike, on downhills at least. It's fine.

I'd agree that you shouldn't be in the bike lane at those speeds (though in
much of the UK they are few and far between and mostly consist of a bit of
paint on the side of the road). That's what roads are for.

~~~
anon4
40mph? Really? Not 40kph? Because holy fuck -- once I managed to go 50kph for
a minute and that's incredibly FAST.

~~~
darkr
Yeah. I hit 46mph the other week on a long fast descent. That's nothing
particularly out of the ordinary; especially compared to pro cyclists - Fabian
Cancellara reportedly exceeded 80mph on the Tour de Suisse in 2009.

Here's a fun video of a 2011 TDF descent:
[https://youtu.be/MSmhgOFGl_M](https://youtu.be/MSmhgOFGl_M)

------
rubyfan
What's more interesting is they purposefully made it look like that. /ot

------
chillingeffect
Speaking of which, how does a fully autonomous car know it's getting pulled
over? Does it have some algorithm to detect police lights?

------
sjclemmy
So how does a police officer stop a self driving car?

