
India set to start massive project to divert Ganges and Brahmaputra rivers - nafizh
http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/may/18/india-set-to-start-massive-project-to-divert-ganges-and-brahmaputra-rivers
======
whack
Before people start engaging in fear mongering and doomsday prophesying,
please spend a little time researching this issue further.

This isn't the first time a project of this scale has been done successfully.
Germany has already done something similar with the Rhine-Main-Danube
canal[1]. 3 similar projects have been conducted in America, involving over
2500km of waterways[2][3][4].

There are indeed some concerns over the environmental impacts that this will
have, just like with any major infrastructure project, but no scholar has
forecast the kind of doomsday rhetoric that people here seem to be spouting
just from reading the headline.

If you're going to make the argument that such projects should be reflexively
abandoned because of "unintended/unpredictable consequences", any and all GMO
agriculture practices should also be abandoned immediately by the same
reasoning. And yet, reasonable people have come to agree that blindly standing
in the way of progress, especially when it stands to benefit hundreds of
millions of people, is just silly.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine%E2%80%93Main%E2%80%93Dan...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine%E2%80%93Main%E2%80%93Danube_Canal)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Waterway](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Waterway)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee%E2%80%93Tombigbee_Wa...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee%E2%80%93Tombigbee_Waterway)

[4]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Intracoastal_Waterway](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Intracoastal_Waterway)

~~~
kchoudhu
The difference here is that Germany and the US could be counted upon to
negotiate in good faith with their riparian neighbors.

India... not so much.

~~~
shripadk
I call BS on this. India has always been a good neighbor. If that wasn't the
case we would never have been able to resolve the long standing border dispute
that existed between India and Bangladesh:
[http://www.news18.com/news/india/prime-minister-narendra-
mod...](http://www.news18.com/news/india/prime-minister-narendra-modi-signs-
land-boundary-agreement-with-bangladesh-pm-sheikh-hasina-1002466.html)

The question that really needs to be asked is: Does India have good neighbors?
China and Pakistan illegally occupying lands in Kashmir and Arunachal Pradesh,
illegal immigration from Bangladesh into North-eastern Indian states, Sri
Lanka capturing and killing Indian fisherman, the list goes on and on.

EDIT: There is already a Water Treaty between India and Bangladesh over
sharing of Ganges waters at Farakka:
[http://www.jrcb.gov.bd/attachment/Gganges_Water_Sharing_trea...](http://www.jrcb.gov.bd/attachment/Gganges_Water_Sharing_treaty,1996.pdf)

You still have doubts over India having bad faith in negotiating with it's
neighbors? Give me one instance where India has broken a pact with it's
neighbors?

~~~
ramgorur
what do you mean by "india being always a good neighbour"? yes it used to be,
long ago, but not any more. You have no idea how this country is pushing
around it's neighbours.

[http://www.felanicamp.com/](http://www.felanicamp.com/)
[http://www.thedailystar.net/country/felani-killing-
justice-d...](http://www.thedailystar.net/country/felani-killing-justice-
denied-border-killings-continue-198391)

and what do you actually mean by "illigal immigration from bangladesh"? It's
actually the both way around. In fact, bangladesh is the biggest and the only
destination of all the cow smugglers from india's eastern border.

[http://www.thequint.com/india/2015/10/12/cow-smuggling-
pay-5...](http://www.thequint.com/india/2015/10/12/cow-smuggling-pay-500-taka-
and-your-cow-is-legal-in-bangladesh)

During the spring/summer, you can cross the Ganges river by walking, if you
ever come to rajshahi, chapai-nawabganj border, you will be able to see it
yourself.

edit: typo

~~~
shripadk
> what do you mean by "india being always a good neighbour"? yes it used to
> be, long ago, but not any more. You have no idea how this country is pushing
> around it's neighbours.

Both examples you cited are of illegal immigration. There is absolutely no
reason for the BSF to kill anyone crossing the border legally.

EDIT: Yes we used to be a good country as long as we allowed illegal
immigration and illegal cattle trade. The moment we prevented it we naturally
became the bad guys.

> and what do you actually mean by "illigal immigration from bangladesh"? It's
> actually the both way around. In fact, bangladesh is the biggest and the
> only destination of all cow smugglers from india's eastern border.

Those cow smugglers are illegally immigrated Bangladeshi's themselves. Read
about your smugglers here: [http://www.ibtimes.com/cattle-smuggling-dangerous-
illegal-hi...](http://www.ibtimes.com/cattle-smuggling-dangerous-illegal-
highly-profitable-trade-between-india-bangladesh-1553155).

Specific quote: "However, the Telegraph noted that even when soldiers from
India's Border Security Force (BSF) seize stolen cattle, they are often
attacked or even killed by mobs of people led by the smugglers themselves.
Lawmakers fear that the depletion of local cattle would also hurt the farming
economy on the Indian side of the border if police do not crack down on
smuggling. Putul Chandra Roy Pradhani, the organizing secretary of the All
Assam Students Union (AASU), which is better known for campaigning against
illegal immigrants from Bangladesh, warned that strict legislation must be
passed against cattle raiders as well. “[Cattle] smugglers are taking
advantage of flexible laws,” he told the Telegraph. “In 2009 and 2010, [the
local government] enforced rules and regulations that almost stopped the
[cattle] smuggling. But those rules and regulations are not being strictly
imposed now.”

Read about the illegal immigration of Bangladeshi's into India here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_India#I...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_India#Illegal_Immigration)

Approximately 3 million illegally crossed over to India. How many Indian's
crossed over illegally to Bangladesh?

~~~
ramgorur
well, it turns out that it's not that small !

[http://scroll.in/article/664305/dhaka-has-a-question-what-
ab...](http://scroll.in/article/664305/dhaka-has-a-question-what-about-the-
illegal-indian-immigrants-in-bangladesh)

As for the cow smugglers, you can find gazzilions of exact the opposite
stories elsewhere. Also looks like india has Rs 12,000-crore of beef industry,
only targeted to bangladesh.

[http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-
india/bang...](http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-
india/bangladesh-raises-concern-as-rajnath-singh-order-hits-beef-supply/)

let me give you a small example, those crappy TATA cars/trucks only sell in
bangladesh, nepal and bhutan (may be?), and no where in the world.

~~~
shripadk
Are you seriously this ignorant about TATA group? Go and find out who owns
Jaguar and then come back to me with real facts.

~~~
ramgorur
well, this used to be a story long time ago. I think, like 8 years ago, in
2008-09. Jaguar went bail-out, and TATA acquired it. Do people still buy
jaguar cars? I doubt.

So, you mean now are we going to see those jaguar "trucks" on the streets of
bangladesh? holy crap.

You missed the point, could you please name a single country (other than
bangladesh, india, nepal, bhutan, srilanka, and pakistan) where those TATA
cars run ?

~~~
shripadk
> You missed the point, could you please name a single country (other than
> bangladesh, india, nepal, bhutan, srilanka, and pakistan) where those TATA
> cars run ?

If you don't like the fact that TATA owns Jaguar/Land Rover, you'll also be
interested in knowing that it owns a South Korean car company called Daewoo
which is the second largest heavy commercial vehicle manufacturer in South
Korea.

TATA also owns Hispano Carrocera which is based in Zaragoza, Aragon, Spain
which is one of the largest manufacturers of bus and coach cabins in Europe.

~~~
ramgorur
I failed to understand, why a giant like TATA keep acquiring all these bailed
out companies

[http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1122730](http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1122730)

I know nothing about hispano carrocera (or whatever), if TATA can save these
"bailed-out" brands, hope that's good for them.

~~~
shripadk
If a company can save "bailed-out" brands that is a good thing isn't it? I
don't see why you have a problem with that.

------
hellyeasa
Before any Southern Californians object, remember that almost all your clean
water comes from snowmelt diverted through hundreds of miles of aqueducts.
Draining lakes such as Owen's Lake to a dusty dry alkali bed.

Who are we to condemn India's actions? Let's just hope the project minimizes
ecological impact.

~~~
whyenot
> Who are we to condemn India's actions? Let's just hope the project minimizes
> ecological impact.

I think Californians have every right to condemn this project. Not only have
we experienced the benefits of huge water projects like this, but also the
costs. The disruption of the delta (take note Bangladesh), Owens Lake that has
been turned into stinging alkali sands, a Colorado river that rarely makes it
to the sea, Hetch Hetchy, a beautiful valley in Yosemite that a century ago
was sacrificed in order for San Francisco to have clean water (not a judgement
call, the water in SF is fantastic, but there is a price..) and so on. Now we
are gearing up to tunnel around the delta so Southern California can suck even
more water out of the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers; there will be an
environmental price for that as well.

My concern with this project is that Bangladesh will get the short end of the
stick. They already are in a difficult spot with the sea level rising, and, if
a reduction in water flow also reduces the amount of silt reaching the delta
there will be more subsidence and an already difficult problem will be made
even worse.

------
jessaustin
Decades hence, the ensuing disasters will be considered inevitable. Of course
there would have been bad science. Of course there would have been shoddy
construction. Of course the scale of the project would have been matched only
by the scale of corruption. Of course most stakeholders' interests would have
been ignored. Of course it would have been more practical for people to move
away from the desert than for the desert to be somehow reincarnated as
habitable.

Looking forward, however, one can almost justify some measure of hope.

~~~
Hondor
What won't be inevitable is whether those disasters are worse than what would
have happened otherwise. People are already running out of drinking water!
Contemporary western morals put the environment first at all costs, even ahead
of human life. That's only a position you can take after your humans already
have a good quality of life. Developing countries still need to improve on
nature to help their people.

Would you instead like to return the Colorado river to its original course
where it dumped most of its water into the sea, leaving desert all around it?
Never have built all the many canals around the world? Just crammed all people
into the few naturally fertile areas and left the rest as a giant eco-tourism
park for the wealthy?

~~~
jessaustin
Like most people who know anything about the Colorado River, I do wish it were
not depleted as it is now. I wish that wasteful subsidized alfalfa cultivation
in Arizona would cease and therefore that dairy production would return to the
Midwest where it sustainably belongs. I wish that the riverbed at the Gulf of
California weren't dry every day of most years, and that native wildlife could
recover. I wish that the cities of southern California and Arizona would try
harder to live in a sustainable way.

With respect to TFA, I wish India-first commentators would realize that this
project threatens hundreds of millions of Indians and Bangladeshis, a number
that dwarfs former populations of the North American southwest.

------
ashwinm
Inter-linking not diverting, BS western media!.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Rivers_Inter-
link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Rivers_Inter-link)

~~~
kchoudhu
There's a set volume of water in these rivers. If you "interlink" the rivers,
some of the water that would go to Bangladesh will go elsewhere, depriving
downstream consumers of water they were expecting.

It's a dick move by India. Calling it something else does nothing to change
that.

~~~
ashwinm
Dude, go through the wiki link once. Also we already have a water treaty with
Bangladesh.

~~~
kchoudhu
According to the wiki, Interlink has been deemed to be potentially beneficial
to Nepal and Bangladesh assuming proper water management treaties are
negotiated with those countries.

Please point me to these properly negotiated agreements.

And pointing to the existing water sharing agreement with Bangladesh is
dishonest. Putting aside the fact that it only lasts for 30 years and makes no
mention of Interlink, everyone agrees that the treaty is inadequate, as
evidenced by the massive tracts of arable land in northern Bangladesh that
have fallen out of cultivation over the last 40 years due excess salinity
caused by poor flow out of the Farakka Barrage.

So yeah: dick move.

~~~
shripadk
TREATY BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF BANGLADESH AND THE
GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF INDIA ON SHARING OF THE GANGA / GANGES WATERS AT
FARAKKA:

[http://www.jrcb.gov.bd/attachment/Gganges_Water_Sharing_trea...](http://www.jrcb.gov.bd/attachment/Gganges_Water_Sharing_treaty,1996.pdf)

~~~
kchoudhu
As I said above: it's not in effect after 2026, and makes no mention of
interlinking projects, and doesn't say anything about the Brahmaputra.

Given current events, it is a woefully inadequate guard against abuse.

~~~
shripadk
Circumstances keep changing and treaties will be modified for the better. You
can't reasonably expect treaties to exist forever? All treaties are meant to
lapse and be replaced by better ones.

~~~
kchoudhu
On matters of existential import (and riparian sustainability is definitely
one of these for Bangladesh), I absolutely would expect to have in place a
binding agreement in perpetuity.

This is _serious_ business for Bangladesh: without the rivers, the flooding
they cause and fluvial sediment deposits that come with the floods, Bangladesh
ceases to exist just as surely as if the sea swallowed the entire country.

~~~
shripadk
> On matters of existential import (and riparian sustainability is definitely
> one of these for Bangladesh), I absolutely would expect to have in place a
> binding agreement in perpetuity.

Of course you can expect a lot of things. But expectations cannot be
unrealistic. A binding agreement in perpetuity is impossible. None of us,
India or Bangladesh, know or can predict the future. No treaty/agreement has
ever been signed between any two countries in this World with an "in
perpetuity" clause. You can always revisit treaties and improve upon it. If
you consider India as a friendly neighbor you (i'm guessing you are from
Bangladesh) should not distrust our ability to negotiate a good treaty.

> This is serious business for Bangladesh: without the rivers, the flooding
> they cause and fluvial sediment deposits that come with the floods,
> Bangladesh ceases to exist just as surely as if the sea swallowed the entire
> country.

And India recognizes that. I have seen the documentary on eroding coastline of
Bangladesh and it is of concern to Indians. If you don't believe me you can
read my comment that I wrote 146 days ago regarding erosion of the Bangladeshi
coastline:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10804361](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10804361).
We are more sensitive to our neighbors problems than our neighbors being
sensitive to our problems. This is unfortunate reality.

------
yread
Water disputes are becoming increasingly common it seems, see [http://www.al-
monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/03/egypt-ethi...](http://www.al-
monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/03/egypt-ethiopia-renaissance-dam-water-
storage-nile-dispute.html#)

~~~
sametmax
This is actually something you can start war on, since people can not live
very long without water.

The situation of India is critical: most water source are heavily poluted, the
population is as big as China's, but China has way more space and invaded
Tibet, securing the montains water.

Now add the following facts:

    
    
        - India has a class system generating a lot of social tensions, and it's getting worst as a small super rich class is booming.
        - A lot of different cultures and religions are mixed, sexual restrictions are still in place and they don't get along with some countries at their very border.
        - They got the nuclear weapon.
    

And you got a cocktail for a Michael Bay movie.

~~~
prawn
A cocktail without ice.

------
minipci1321
Can't help but think about:
[https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4637-russia-
reviving-...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4637-russia-reviving-
massive-river-diversion-plan/)

~~~
jessaustin
The 'stans seem to have backed the wrong horse in Luzhkov. Probably for the
best, since it's difficult to imagine Russia completing a project of that size
with recent oil prices.

------
cheriot
Areas immediately around the Ganges are already experiencing drought because
so much of the river's water is already used for irrigation.

Is North India and Bangladesh as screwed as this makes it sound?

~~~
ramgorur
yes, during the spring/early summer, on the bangladesh side, you can cross the
ganges river on foot.

in the mid-monsoon, the river floods like crazy and washes away millions of
settlements in a snap.

this has been going on like 40 years, just because of the farakka barrage,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farakka_Barrage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farakka_Barrage)

------
seanmcdirmid
The next wars will be fought over water, not oil. We are already seeing
pressure in India, heavily dammed China, SE Asia, not to mention smaller
problems between the US and Mexico.

------
enugu
Desalination is also being considered, though it is expensive.
[http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/aurangabad/Govt-
mull...](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/aurangabad/Govt-mulls-
desalination-plant-to-fight-regions-water-crisis/articleshow/51589150.cms)

There are some projects running in Chennai, currently.

------
casouniquo
Now china should start diverting Brahmaputra river, or build more dams

[http://www.hindustantimes.com/world/china-s-largest-dam-
in-t...](http://www.hindustantimes.com/world/china-s-largest-dam-in-tibet-on-
brahmaputra-river-switched-on/story-NuZapXFhCSkHlCyRbXiRJK.html)

~~~
ramgorur
they have already started it, now it's time to see how india reacts.

------
arvizard
What other alternatives exist for dealing with the issue of water shortage
with 200 billion dollars?

How about desalination of sea water? Costs seem to be getting lower. What
risks does this pose compared to inter linking of rivers?

------
Grue3
Reminds me of Soviet plans to divert Siberian rivers to the south (deserts in
Kazakhstan etc.). It's quite wasteful that these rivers flow north, where
nobody lives, when you think about it.

------
openfuture
Given how confusing the HN discussion is I can only imagine how misinformed
the people who this actually affects are.

------
kinai
"Hey lets divert 2 huge natural rivers, I bet there won't be any unforeseen
consequences if you really really just put enough thought into it"

~~~
thaumasiotes
Diverting huge rivers is a project people have engaged in everywhere for
multiple thousands of years. We do it because it's useful.

~~~
Aelinsaar
Killing someone for their possessions and meat has been done for thousands of
years, and is useful.

------
known
Why not Nationalize river waters?

------
photonwins
I am sure there is a perfect recipe book for solving fresh water problem for
millions of people and animals that India is not following.

------
sizzzzlerz
The Law of Unforseen Consequences cannot be ignored and a full accounting of
its costs will be paid.

This will not turn out well.

~~~
Gustomaximus
I'm not so pessimistic. While absolutely there could be problems I think of a
similar Australian scheme that has been largely successful.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_Mountains_Scheme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_Mountains_Scheme)

------
kchoudhu
RIP Bangladesh.

