
What if everything you know is wrong? - gruseom
http://20committee.com/2013/02/24/what-if-everything-you-know-is-wrong/
======
sbirchall
One interesting book I picked up a few years ago and dip in and out of from
time to time seems of relevance here: Everything you know IS Wrong[1]... a
somewhat hyperbolic title and read at the best of times, but it's always got
me thinking at least. One of the articles (it's a collection of such by many
authors) claimed that the caricature of "Hannibal Lecter" was in fact an overt
cover for actual events (ritualistic murder and the occult) which seem to be
linked to the super rich and powerful and may have had links to the Vatican.

I'm not saying anything is true or not, but those that like the fringe
thinking that Conspiracy Theories (non pejorative) incline one towards may
like this book.

[1: [http://www.amazon.co.uk/Everything-Know-Wrong-
Disinformation...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Everything-Know-Wrong-
Disinformation-ebook/dp/B0042RUF7A/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1361797540&sr=8-2)]

------
e3pi
Last lines:

"A brilliant op, clearly."

"...Not to mention the irony noted by many that both Kurras and the radicals
his criminal act gave birth to in the form of terrorism, were under the
control of the Stasi. A brilliant op, clearly. And a good reminder that some
things are not quite what they seem to be."

If this be a brilliant op, why aren't there Kurras copycats at our newsworthy
protests gatherings? Say for example, at last year's Occupy Movement, a
`double-agent' NYC cop shoots a young anti-capitalist on Wall Street, or a
banker is similarly murdered by an ancap, could it be today the `blowback' has
proven to become indeterminate, counterproductive, and recklessly dangerous
for any interest considering criminal foment?

~~~
silvestrov
Because that action would help no one in power.

The shooting of Benno Ohnesorg helped an existing power which had a long
tradition of successful CI.

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randomchars
I wonder which current conspiracy theories will turn out to be true.

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lifeisstillgood
Whaddaya mean _if_ ?

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martinced
_"The man that Germany’s baby boomers loathed as the archetype of fascism, a
living symbol of the evil Nazi-ish past, actually was a Stasi hero, a loyal
servant of Communism"_

Two sides of the exact same coin. Hitler himself repeatedly stated that
communists would make perfect nazis once he'd have conquered russia.

National socialism and communism really aren't that far apart: Hitler did
adopt 8 of Marx's ten major points of communism.

That an ex-nazi in free western germany would actually be a Stasi agent is
really not surprising at all.

These kind of person are the ennemy of freedom and the ennemy of individual
liberties. They'll do anything they can to work for an ever bigger and ever
more restrictive state.

Socialists refuse to admit that national socialism was actually an ideology
from left and keep telling that if Hitler was allied with Italy and Japan
nazis were right-wing fascist. But that logic has its limits.

Statism is statism. Planned economy is planned economy. An article like this
one only reinforce the notion that what I know is not wrong: communism and
national-socialism are two sides of the same coin.

Hitler wanted to rule alone, hence his wish to annihilate Stalin and to
convert russians into nazis. But it's not because Hitler wanted to replace
Stalin that nazism suddenly becomes a free-market, liberal, ideology where
individual liberties would be the most important thing.

~~~
raphael_kimmig
> Socialists refuse to admit that national socialism was actually an ideology
> from left

Sounds great if you don't let facts get in the way of your world view.
Communists, socialists and social democrats (read: the left) where fighting
the Nazis in the streets before Hitler even came to power, they were the ones
who openly resisted in parliament and they were the first to be cast into
concentration camps when Hitler came to power. All while the right readily
embraced the Führer...

~~~
Turing_Machine
"Communists, socialists and social democrats (read: the left) where fighting
the Nazis in the streets before Hitler even came to power"

Sorry, that's not persuasive.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives>

Internecine wars are always the most bloody. Ask the ghost of Leon Trotsky, or
are you going to argue that he wasn't a communist? Maybe Ernst Röhm wasn't a
Nazi?

~~~
rmk2
This is utter bullshit. It is hardly a war if only one side is doing all the
murdering, incarcerating and driving people into exile.

The political right had a _long history_ of political murder and prosecution
all throughout the Weimar Republic, long before 1933, which just intensified
afterwards. The murders auf Jaurès in France, of Luxemburg and Liebknecht in
Berlin, Eisner in Munich, the extrajudicial killings (and subsequent dismissed
court cases) by various Freikorps were _all_ aimed at leftist activists. The
expatriation lists of the German Reich were also further acts against the
political left, especially its intellectuals and journalists. Ossietzky's
incarceration and Tucholsky's exile were further indicators, alongside the
exile of many other prominent intellectuals, among them Brecht, Adorno,
Horkheimer, Benjamin (whose suicide is a direct consequence), Marcuse, the
Manns, A. Zweig, S. Zweig and many, many more.

The National Socialists were from the very get-go utterly opposed to any form
of leftist political activity, and many paid the price.

~~~
Turing_Machine
"It is hardly a war if only one side is doing all the murdering, incarcerating
and driving people into exile."

Losing a war doesn't make it not a war.

So you're arguing that Communists don't do exactly the same thing when they
take power?

~~~
rmk2
Please read my comment and the part quoted again. I have made no such claim,
and I have, in fact not even touched upon such arguments.

My whole argument is based around the fact that you are trying to equate
things that are in fact very distinctly different. The whole point is that the
history of Weimar Germany is everything _but_ an internal fight, unlike both
historical events you mentioned.

The German Left and the German Right leading up to 1933 are very distinct
groups, with specific affiliated cultures, outlets, forerunners etc. Equating
the events leading up to fascist rule in Germany with the in-group fighting
you mention is a) misleading and b) void of any historical precedent. The two
distinct blocs have _never_ been a coherent group that then splits into two
factions. They have never been united and have always been very easy to tell
apart. Bismarck's Sozialistengesetze are just one of the many examples of the
clear and effective divide between the Left and the Right, both in the
Kaiserreich and subsequently during the Weimar Republic.

I know you are trying to make an overly generalised point equating left and
right, however, this does not make your view any more substantiated.
Historical evidence, recent (and not-so-recent) scholarship, as well as
cultural history suggest that the equation you make is a crass reduction --
and thus oversimplification -- of the actual, very complex historical process
for the sake of the popular argument that left and right are _the same_ , and
that any conflict between them is an _internal_ conflict.

~~~
Turing_Machine
"the popular argument that left and right are the same, and that any conflict
between them is an internal conflict."

They are, and it is.

The only useful distinction here is that between liberty and slavery.

~~~
rmk2
If you selectively quote, why not at least make an effort instead of just
quoting what seems to reinforce your point of view, ignoring the critique of
your standpoint?

There doesn't seem to be a point trying to argue with you, since you already
decided that you are right and therefore beyond critique.

If you can actually argue your point instead of just off-handedly quoting
wrongly equated wikipedia articles then please do, since I'd be interested in
hearing you out. Otherwise, what's the point?

------
nacker
The more information is available, the more conspiracy theories are found to
be true. Here are 33 of them:

[http://www.infowars.com/33-conspiracy-theories-that-
turned-o...](http://www.infowars.com/33-conspiracy-theories-that-turned-out-
to-be-true-what-every-person-should-know/)

And before anyone sniffs about linking to Infowars, let me ask you, looking
back 15 years, who was right in predicting our current dystopia, Alex Jones,
or his critics?

' "Conspiracy theory" is usually used as a pejorative label, meaning paranoid,
nutty, marginal, and certainly untrue. The power of this pejorative is that it
discounts a theory by attacking the motivations and mental competence of those
who advocate the theory. By labeling an explanation of events "conspiracy
theory," evidence and argument are dismissed because they come from a mentally
or morally deficient personality, not because they have been shown to be
incorrect. Calling an explanation of events "conspiracy theory" means, in
effect, "We don't like you, and no one should listen to your explanation."

In earlier eras other pejorative labels, such as "heresy," "witchery," and
"communism" also worked like this. The charge of "conspiracy theory" is not so
severe as these other labels, but in its way is many times worse. Heresy,
witchcraft, and communism at least retain some sense of potency. They
designate ideas to be feared. "Conspiracy theory" implies that the ideas and
their advocates are simple-minded or insane. '

<http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/old/conspiracy.htm>

Many conspiracies which have been irrefutably _exposed_ continue to operate,
simply because the majority of people dislike acknowledging uncomfortable
facts - for example, Operation Gladio:

<http://www.corbettreport.com/mp3/episode256-lq.mp3>

~~~
CodeCube
Current Dystopia?? I don't know where you live ... but if you're in the US
(and the kind of person that would frequent this site) I assume that what you
are living in is far from a dystopia. Let's keep some perspective in the
conversation please.

~~~
nacker
Born in the US, left permanently in 2007. The US is absolutely a dystopia.
Opening your eyes helps perspective:

<http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/02/constitution.html>

~~~
CodeCube
I'm curious where you emigrated to, and how it compares to the US ... if you
don't mind sharing.

~~~
nacker
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_traveler>

39 countries so far. Plenty of perspective...

