
The rituals we perform and the games we play - BafS
https://anargumentfordeliberation.wordpress.com/2016/04/11/the-rituals-we-perform-and-the-games-we-play/
======
cortesoft
I always wonder with these "nothing we do has meaning" pieces... what WOULD
give life 'real' meaning? As in, what alternate reality would provide meaning?

I can't imagine a universe where things would have 'meaning' in the manner the
author of this post seems to desire. Even if you believe in a God that gives
our lives meaning, doesn't that just push up the search for 'meaning' one
level? How is God choosing an arbitrary meaning for our lives any different
than some other human choosing a meaning for your life?

I can understand being frustrated by the drive for status and recognition, but
that doesn't have to be the source for meaning in your life. We can find
meaning in all sorts of things in our lives. We can find it in our
relationships with our loved ones, in our enjoyment of our favorite
activities, in our striving to advance human discovery and understanding of
our world. These are things that can have intrinsic meaning, not things that
only have meaning in the way they increase our status or grant us some
secondary benefit.

I would really suggest reading "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl

~~~
kough
I rather like Camus' treatise of the subject. The wikipedia article serves as
a well-written summary
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus)

~~~
maxerickson
The summary nearly matches the essay for length. It seems the text is
available:

[https://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/hell/camus.html](https://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/hell/camus.html)

edit: (looking more closely that is probably only 1 of the 4 chapters)

------
sethc2
I enjoyed his points. I've often thought of the meaningless of things, but I
like how he called them rituals.

“Vanity of vanities!” says the Teacher, “Vanity of vanities! All is vanity!”

The above is a quote from Ecclesiastes, which, even if you're not religious,
is a pretty interesting book, and it seems to sum up pretty much what he is
saying.

Fitting enough, shortly after that opening statement in Ecclesiastes this is
said.

"What has been—it is what will be; what has been done—it is what will be done;
there is nothing new under the sun. There is a thing of which it is said,
“Look at this! This is new!” But it already existed in ages past before us."

~~~
jasode
_> his points. ... , but I like how he _

I don't know the writer but there's a good chance the author (HN userid
Jasamba) is a "she".

~~~
cortesoft
I don't know, this line seems pretty male-centric:

"It’s as if you are now in the elite of the elites of the monkeys, in the good
part of the forest where the trees grow bountiful and most female monkeys
would kill to be considered a worthy partner by you, so that they too can
perform the successful monkey rituals with you"

~~~
Jasamba
Female monkeys can be conscious of the ongoing situation you know ;), plus it
could be the other way round as well if not for the centuries of 'I is man, so
I is provide for family' prevailing expectations.

~~~
cortesoft
Yeah, but the 'you' is clearly referring to a male (who the females are going
to 'perform the successful monkey ritual with), so the target is a male
reader.

~~~
Jasamba
Or Lesbains? As the author, I guess I just wanted to go for the more relatable
situation.

------
dragontamer
[http://xkcd.com/220/](http://xkcd.com/220/)

[http://xkcd.com/167/](http://xkcd.com/167/)

Yeah, sometimes you lose sight about what's beautiful in life. But its the
human inside of you who determines whether life is beautiful or not.

Why does anything matter? Is it all just a meaningless "ritual"? Maybe, if you
don't care. But that doesn't seem like a very healthy mindset to keep yourself
into.

Life only has the meaning that you assign to it. Others will judge you for
"meaningless" tasks, or you yourself may feel like things are meaningless at
times. That's normal. Congratulations, you've rediscovered existentialism. Now
either play the ritual of philosophy and find meaning in that discovery, or
play something else.

In any case, seeing life as a serious of "meaningless rituals" ignores the
beauty and discovery that life gives us. We all have that phase in our life
where we lose meaning, but one day you'll come back around and discover the
reason why you continue to march forward.

And at that point, you'll rediscover beauty and adventure. Life will be
interesting. Today is not that day for you yet however.

------
reasonattlm
You are in a desert of dunes. The day to day is between two dunes. You look
up, you see sand.

There are mountains in the distance. If you never walk up to the top of the
dune, you won't know that, and if you don't make it a habit, you'll quickly
forget that you saw them.

Your life can be a procession of views of sand grains in between a few dunes,
or it can be a deliberate migration towards the mountains.

We are not terribly far from an ascension that will completely change the
human condition, make it irrelevant as to what we our ancestors were in the
evolutionary past, and make it possible to choose everything about what we
will be. The future is glorious, golden, and accelerating. You can work
towards that, or you can choose to ignore it.

~~~
nosuchthing
You are on a planet flying through space. The day to day is somewhere in
space. You look up, you probably see sky.

There are things that will happen in the future. If you always think about
living for the future instead of the present, and you don't make it a habit,
you'll quickly forget that you're living in a dream.

Your life can be a procession of day jobs, food, media ad infinitum ad
nauseam.

We're not far from all the angels, demons, cyber raptures, and myriad of
dogmatic ideologies we want to believe in, if we do, and it makes it possible
to choose everything about what we choose to do each day. The future is
unwritten.

------
resu_nimda
I was with you right up until the last line. I don't understand why most
people view nihilism as bleak and depressing. Why do we crave meaning to give
us direction?

Nihilism feels so _liberating_ to me. I have thoughts like these daily, they
serve to remind me that we don't have to do the rituals if we don't want to.
We can do _whatever we want._ At any moment. And nobody can say it's "wrong"
or "bad," because those concepts don't exist in the universe at large. There's
no point, there's no meaning, there's no goal - it's an open sandbox. Go play,
while you still have the chance!

~~~
resu_nimda
The article seems to have been edited, previously it ended with "It makes me
want to not keep living" or something to that effect, instead of the quote
from Ecclesiastes.

~~~
Jasamba
Yeah, I didn't expect it to blow up that much, and that line left me feeling a
bit too vulnerable than I would've liked to be.

~~~
resu_nimda
No worries, though I would be interested to hear your thoughts on my
position...do you see yourself ever "embracing nihilism" as another commenter
put it, and using it as a source of encouragement rather than depression?

~~~
Jasamba
Hum, I think I do interpret it in a positive way most of the time, though
there are other times, esp when I see otherwise fine people struggling to get
this badge or that validation(plus comparing it to other people's), and
beating themselves over it. Its less me having difficulties embracing nihilism
but more wishing that it was a more accessible and talked about idea, so that
you wouldn't see these amazing people killing themselves over a failed exam
and falling into depression comparing themselves to others who seemingly have
'made something of their life', good for them. It's like the race has become
the existing reality that we forget it's just that. I was inspired to write
the article just after this conversation with a friend, who is an insanely
talented coder, who has decided that since he was already 25, it was too late
for him to 'accomplish' anything, and he was thereby a 'loser'. I find my
brother in a similar situation of angst for not 'accomplishing' something
(he's 22). Countless otehr very close friends echoing similar sentiments
(maybe it's a 20's thing?). I understand wanting to discover cool stuff,
getting closer to the absolute truth, but I don't understand beating yourself
up because you did not meet a randomly assigned deadline, and assuming that
some-one is a loser by default unless they can prove otherwise (Remonds me of
how religion works, you are a sinner now do these things and give us all this
money). That's what takes me down in the end.

~~~
resu_nimda
Fully agreed there. It's easy to get caught up in the rat race when everyone
around you is doing the same, and it can make you feel crazy to be the only
one saying "guys, what are we actually doing all this for?" But ultimately,
you can't beat yourself up over others beating themselves up.

Another way to think of it is: I don't like Donald Trump. I think what he does
is wrong and bad, and it saddens and angers me if I let it. But, if I hold
true to my beliefs, then he's just another part of the universe playing itself
out, which will continue inexorably regardless of how I feel about it, so
there's no sense in getting mad about it.

------
woodchuck64
The use of the word "ritual" seems to imply behavioral patterns done without
fully understanding them. But a full explanation for human behavior requires a
lot more than just understanding monkey behavior (why stop there rather than
at mammal behavior, or tetrapod behavior, or RNA replicator behavior), it
requires a perfect model of the universe extrapolated over 14 billion years
which is forever beyond our grasp.

"Ritual" also implies behavior that is done by rote or under duress. But that
leaves out behavior that is done because it is desirable or an expected end of
it is desirable. The drive to pursue pleasure does not require an explanation,
it is its own explanation, much like the drive to avoid pain requires no
explanation either.

> It makes me wonder what would happen to us if we didn’t have any more
> rituals to perform or standardized games to wake up to.

You describe the absence of all drives, a very unusual state. Sounds like
depression, frankly.

------
sliverstorm
_It makes me wonder what would happen to us if we didn’t have any more rituals
to perform or standardized games to wake up to._

We'd develop them again. We didn't get the set we have by accident.

Some variation would be found, certainly, but cultures around the world
converged on many similar notions reaching where we are today.

~~~
Joof
How many of those cultures evolved in isolation?

------
cpr
A mighty prolix way of saying "what is the meaning of life?"

~~~
Jasamba
Agreed, but then that's literature's way of saying anything, the more prolix
the better.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Only within limits. And those limits are as defined by the audience, not by
the author. (Or rather, the author, by setting the verbosity, _determines_ the
audience. If you want to reach the New Yorker audience, use lots of words. If
you want to reach the average HN reader, not so much.)

------
twinkletwinkle
A little too self-indulgent for my tastes. Any time someone refers to humans
as upgraded monkeys I have the same reaction ... "yeah, I get it. Now get over
yourself".

~~~
Jasamba
I agree and thank you for the feedback, for its defense, this was barely the
first draft and really skims over the thoughts and follows them as they
arrive. It is by no means a revised and generalized piece.

------
jacobolus
My two favorite books on this subject:

1) James Carse, _Finite and Infinite Games_ ,
[http://amzn.com/1476731713](http://amzn.com/1476731713)

2) Antoine de St.-Exupéry, _Wisdom of the Sands_ (Fr. _Citadelle_ )
[http://amzn.com/0226733726](http://amzn.com/0226733726)

~~~
Paul_S
Russians do it better. Gulag Archipelago, War and Peace. OK, so they use more
pages...

~~~
jacobolus
These are both great books, but they aren’t really the same subject per se.

------
RangerScience
[http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2394](http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2394)
[http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2871](http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2871)

But I think between these two concepts:
[http://www.alexwg.org/publications/PhysRevLett_110-168702.pd...](http://www.alexwg.org/publications/PhysRevLett_110-168702.pdf)
[https://www.quantamagazine.org/20140122-a-new-physics-
theory...](https://www.quantamagazine.org/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-
life/)

there might be an implied purpose to the "universe".

~~~
Jasamba
I like that you linked a journal article, thanks! And SMBC is just great, I'm
constantly surprised that the creator started out with a literature degree,
and ended up writing such relatable jokes for the academic community.

Entropy maximization sounds about just as appealing as an answer as 42.

------
digsmahler
An oblique point, but we apparently have more in common with apes than
monkeys. Admittedly, you could have just as easily compared us with
wolverines. Nicely written!

------
hosh
Well... yes. There's more to it than that. The author pretty much stopped when
he could keep going further.

A lot of our identity is attached to these meaningless rituals and games.
However, the one constant in all of it is Awareness. It's here that when one
starts trying to find just "who" is aware that things get interesting again.
It leads to some place much deeper and goes beyond the existential dread.

~~~
Jasamba
That was a point I wanted to dwell upon. Awareness while committing the
rituals indeed changes the game but that would be incomplete without including
free will and the concept of consciousness (giving rise to awareness) in
general. But then going into successively deeper arguments endangers the
article ever seeing the light of day.

~~~
hosh
You ever looked into the philosophy of non-dual Shaiva Tantra? Well, actually,
just about any non-dual philosophies...

Here, consciousness and awareness is not a concept, but the first principle of
the universe -- from which the _concept_ of consciousness reflects upon the
first principle (without actually being the first principle). It's a key
insight that breaks out the nihilism.

\-- By "consciousness", I am speaking of awareness, not the constructed
identity that most people calls "consciousness".

------
elsurudo
Yes, we are animals. That much is obvious. Yes, we are predictable animals.
What is the point of it all? I think those that have found the courage to
break free of the shackles of these "games" have found it. I hope to be among
them one day, but right now, I am here, seeking freedom like the rest of us.

~~~
nosuchthing
Oh the woefulness of existential crisis...

Go for a walk in the park. Go for a bike ride. Talk to new people, hang out
with them. Play some games, don't be a jerk or else people will return the
favor.

Embark on an exuberant hedonistic adventure and when you burn out, swim into
the ocean and begin an alternative life style.

~~~
Jasamba
But what's the poooiint..

~~~
ZenoArrow
The point is to enjoy it. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Here are a couple of my favourite songs that I think put it well:

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OvMoRVrqx_I](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OvMoRVrqx_I)

[http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2z46va](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2z46va)

Here's one of my favourite stories about the same thing:

[https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/02/25/margaret-mead-
meani...](https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/02/25/margaret-mead-meaning-of-
life/)

Sometimes it can be fun/stimulating to consider the nature of existence, but
if it isn't taking you to that place, why do it? I half remember a story about
a famous mathematician who drove himself mad trying to solve a problem
regarding infinities, to me this is a great example of the difference between
intellect and wisdom. If you're driven to understand something, I'd suggest
that tells you something that's interesting in its own right, so to turn it
back on you, why do you want to know?

~~~
Jasamba
Thanks for the links! I guess I'd like to know because without it, there's not
much else I can do except wake up/eat/take s shit/go back to sleep. We are
even able to have this conversation because someone somewhere wanted to go
deeper and know more. About mathematicians, as a physicist, I'm no better
myself and don't see why the possibility of going crazy should stop you from
going after a problem you think you just need to know and are uniquely
equipped to find the answer to, especially if you happen to be a famous(so
probably a very talented) mathematician.

~~~
ZenoArrow
You're welcome. :-) Thank you for your answer, I think I understand your
reasoning a little better.

With the example of the mathematician, you can read it a number of different
ways, but one of the things I took from it was the difference between a
healthy curiosity and an unhealthy curiosity. It sounds to me that you have a
healthy curiosity, and enjoy the mental stimulation of exploring the big
questions. As long as it remains something you enjoy and you're still open to
enjoying other things then you can't really go wrong. If you'd like to find
kindred spirits that also enjoy thinking about the big questions, you can find
plenty in the world of philosophy. I can recommend The School of Life as an
enjoyable way to explore philosophy. As some examples, here are a couple of my
favourites from TSoL:

[http://youtu.be/fI1OeMmwYjU](http://youtu.be/fI1OeMmwYjU)

[http://youtu.be/WLAtXWaz76o](http://youtu.be/WLAtXWaz76o)

Learning can be done for your own enjoyment, but what I would suggest is the
mindset that many of us used to get us through school isn't likely to help
with that. I think this video puts it well:

[http://youtu.be/ERbvKrH-GC4](http://youtu.be/ERbvKrH-GC4)

Related to this, here's a discussion about deschooling you may find
interesting:

[http://youtu.be/Avd1EgAHnD8](http://youtu.be/Avd1EgAHnD8)

One last thing...

[http://youtu.be/KgzQuE1pR1w](http://youtu.be/KgzQuE1pR1w)

Best of luck!

~~~
Jasamba
Thanks! Loved the songs you had linked, esp the drums. Deschooling sounds very
close to what I assume will be required to cope and thrive with nihilism. We
are given some very shallow arguments to 'keep going' mainly centering around,
'You need to be successful/find a succesful partner/Be the next einstein'.You
only need to go a couple of steps deeper, to realise that these statements are
hollow and incomplete. I'm not saying one needs to have a why to do anything
at all, just that it needs to be understand that there is no answer to that
why. Otherwise it is no different from religious dogma that crumbles at the
slightest questioning. Thanks for the aweosme links, gonna check them out one
by one!

~~~
ZenoArrow
Glad you liked the songs! Would be interested to hear what you thought of the
other videos too (even if you didn't like them).

Whilst I can see that you're looking into nihilism, it's worth knowing that
nihilism isn't the only alternative to conventional views and religious dogma.
To start this exploration, let's look at reincarnation. My favourite way to
look at this is... If you eat an apple, has that apple been reincarnated as a
human?

------
Paul_S
When you remember that we are evolved monkeys it all makes perfect sense. Not
saying it's somehow gratifying or inspiring but leaves little mystery.
Probably not the answer you were looking for.

------
graycoder
Embrace nihilism! (if you want)

But definitely read Camus and Nietzsche.

Camus is particularly good if you'd like to be exposed to philosophies/ideas
that result in happiness, rather than ones that demand you just have it.

~~~
Jasamba
Thanks, I started them at some point, but had too much at hand to really get
into them. I basically wrote the article in under 15 minutes in a mildly
depressive/ruminative state. Apart from the 'Gah, Get over it!', I now have
all these awesome book suggestions to indulge my existential crisis in.

~~~
graycoder
Haha, I know the feeling well. So much to do. Hard to really get through one
thing before finding an awesome next story or idea.

I don't think I've personally ever "gotten over" existential angst. I don't
think I've ever tried because it's been with me for a while and I somehow came
about experiencing it without hitting a deep depression. It's just there.
Could have been the sets of fantasy books I read as a child/teenager allowing
me to step outside myself mentally, or maybe it's a quirk of my upbringing. I
was able to, and still am able to, think about suicide, the meaning of life,
and how pointless it all is, while maintaining a relatively normal life.

I often explain to friends and/or family about how my logical/conscious self
defaults to existential nihilism and they either go, "Uhhh, ok..." or say,
"That's impossible. You care. You can't act the way you do and not care."

They're confused that I chose to live, I guess. So many people bias themselves
towards a positive answer of the question: Does life have a meaning?

Many say, "Of course it does. If you really thought otherwise you wouldn't be
alive."

For them it's: "Life has meaning... so I must live" "Life has no meaning... so
I must die"

I think there's a funny middle:

"Life has no meaning... I... Well, I've got no idea, but I'm sure as hell not
going to make a choice with no idea... I guess I'll see how it goes."

------
spdnr
seems to devalue the practice of ritualism, while mocking the social
constructs of presumably a city. maybe try reflecting on one or the other
instead of devaluing the potency of each.

------
fffrad
Sure this kind of posts get pretty annoying. As the author keeps repeating
"existential longing" I want to yell "get over it already" or "stop smoking
pot".

But then I remember that I have my moments too. It's not everyday, but I
definitely have times where I look at the mundanity of programming. Today,
making these pages render in a few milliseconds gets me excited, but the other
day I was watching a live feed from the international space station and simply
switched the channel. Because what's is the damn point.

I don't find these posts meaningless. And don't be too quick to judge. Today
it is him/her, tomorrow it is you!

~~~
Jasamba
I swear there was no pot involved whatsoever, though if there had been, I'm
certain you'd have been spared of the annoyance of yet another 'Why am I
here/Everything is meaningless' piece.

~~~
fffrad
I'm not saying writing this kind of piece is bad. I want to read them, and
they are a good reminder that sometimes we get caught up in our little rituals
and take it way too seriously.

The fact that I was annoyed was exactly the point. I have my own days where I
feel like all I am doing is meaningless, and in those days reading a post like
this actually inspires me because I know I'm not alone in this feeling.

Maybe I didn't express myself correctly on the previous comment, but in no way
telling you to shut up. Just saying that today you are the one feeling like
this. Tomorrow, it will be me.

------
bwackwat
Sex!

~~~
Paul_S
Bacon!

------
ycombosnator
was this written by an adult?

~~~
Jasamba
Author here, half an adult i'd say. It was meant to be a stream of
consciousness unloading exercise, my first one at that. I have no idea why
people are upvoting it.

~~~
mordocai
I upvoted it because, as another commenter said, I have had much the same
thoughts before. Some weeks/months I'll have these thoughts everyday.

So basically, I upvoted because I identify with what you wrote.

~~~
Jasamba
Glad I could do that. I wrote it in a pretty down state, so it pretty much
wrote itself albeit the imperfect language and structure.

------
Paul_S
This teenager will be singehandeldy (maybe with help from voters) responsible
for several onsets of midlife crises. Words can be dangerous.

~~~
maxerickson
That's a bit over the top. Any mid life crisis that is one essay away from
happening is pretty close to happening regardless.

