
Hong Kong Baffled by Snowden’s Hideout - nir
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2013/06/10/hong-kong-baffled-by-snowdens-hideout/
======
uvdiv
This is contradicted somewhat by a different source. This one says Hong Kong
is a very good place to seek asylum right now, because there is a moratorium
on deporting asylum-seekers:

 _But there is at least one reason it could be incredibly shrewd: Hong Kong 's
asylum system is currently stuck in a state of limbo that could allow Snowden
to exploit a loophole and buy some valuable time._

 _Simon Young, director of the Centre for Comparative and Public Law at the
University of Hong Kong, told GlobalPost that a decision delivered by Hong
Kong 's High Court in March of this year required the government to create a
new procedure for reviewing asylum applications._

 _Until the government does this, he said, asylum seekers are allowed to stay
in Hong Kong indefinitely._

[http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-
pacific...](http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-
pacific/china/130610/why-edward-snowden-hong-kong-extradition-asylum)

~~~
laureny
The difference here is that Snowden is going to be wanted for criminal
charges, not political ones, so his case for pleading asylum is very, very
weak.

It's like someone being accused of murder and trying to seek asylum in another
country (I'm not saying that what he did is identical to murder, just pointing
out what "criminal" means here).

~~~
alephnil
Most oppressive regimes will make sure that dissidents also get criminal
charges (fabricated or not), so then you could just as well remove the concept
of asylum entirely. Hardly any country has political charges after all.

The concept of murder may not be as obvious as you think. If an American
murder fled to Norway, he will likely not get asylum, but Norwegian
authorities can't extradict him to the US, because they are not allowed to do
that when there is a possibility of capital penalty. The same is the case for
many other European nations.

------
tokenadult
Have we seen a news report yet about how Snowden traveled to Hong Kong? His
choice of destination may have been dictated by where he could fly on a
nonstop airline flight from Hawaii, where he was last based. His travel
documents, because he was contracting for the NSA, may already have had
restrictions on which destinations he could fly to. (Such restrictions have
been routine for NSA employees for more than a generation. Airlines check
travel documents before you board a plane on an international flight, because
the airline is responsible for returning you at no charge to you if you are
denied entry for lack of proper travel documents at the border of your
destination.) He may simply have had no better choice when he had opportunity
to leave work and leave home.

~~~
wanderingstan
A few years ago I was cutting it close for a flight from New York to Maine.
Everyone else had boarded when I got to the gate. When my wrinkled, self-
printed boarding pass threw error noises, the agent told me just to go, "and
run!" I breathed a sigh of relief when I was on the plane, but puzzled that a
French tourist was in my seat. When we saw that both our tickets had the same
seat we called over a flight attendant. "Wait, where are you flying?" she
asked. "Portland, Maine?" With this comment I now fully understand the terror
came to her face as she exclaimed, "This plane is going to Paris! Sir, you
have to get off this plane immediately! Run, sir, run!" They shut the door
behind me as I left.

So yes, always double check your gate assignments at the airport, as they may
have changed.

~~~
segmondy
you missed a free trip to paris! what an adventure that would have been. well,
not if you can't leave the airport.

------
wallawe
This guy is not dumb by any stretch of the imagination. He also didn't make
this decision overnight. If I had to guess, he planned this all very well with
all considerations in mind .

The fact that he noted his location at all is interesting in that he obviously
doesn't want to get caught. So why bring it up? He could have just as easily
left that detail anonymous. Makes me wonder if there's a tactic in mind that
we might not have seen just yet.

~~~
CaveTech
It's unlikely that he'd be able to hide anywhere in the world at this point
without at least _someone_ finding him. At least by saying where he is people
will notice if he goes "missing".

~~~
codesuela
Also consider, if he hadn't shared his location he might've just disappeared
as soon as he made an anonymous statement over the internet. This way he gets
to talk to the press and establishes his location clearly.

------
_k
He might have an insurance policy. After all, he had access to other data so
if they lock him up, they risk problems bigger than they could ever imagine.
He may have written a program that releases the information on a certain date.
Or someone else has a backup and knows what to do with it.

Either that or he's no longer in Hong Kong, sort of like what McAfee did, tell
everyone where he's at when he's really no longer there. So when Snowden tells
the CIA their office is across the street, it's no more than a tactic to
mislead the CIA.

Either that, or he hasn't thought this through at all and I find that hard to
believe.

~~~
jckt
I find it hard to believe that he can be anywhere so easily. The NSA isn't
omniscient, but certainly it keeps close tabs on people that work with/for
them?

~~~
JamisonM
I would suggest that tracking former employees or contractors that had
security clearance and did not misbehave while working for the NSA would be a
pretty low priority to keep track of - and fairly numerous. Particularly since
any information they did have that was sensitive would generally lose value
over time. I would expect that most of the NSA's resources directed at
specific individuals are directed at individuals that they have reason to
believe are up to no good, not just tracking low-risk folks for the sake of
tracking them.

~~~
cpleppert
He wasn't an NSA employee he was a contractor. They don't even know how many
contrators they have working for them.

------
tomelders
> Hong Kong is the worst place in the world for any person to avoid
> extradition, with the possible exception of the United Kingdom

I'm British, and this both saddens and angers me. It's time for a change.

~~~
kombine
I wouldn't worry too much about it, it is all politics and all selective. A
lot of Russians fled to the UK to elude justice in Russia. Whether they are
political refugees or indeed committed crimes back home is another matter, but
London is certainly a safe harbour for many of them.

~~~
pekk
For which crime is polonium poisoning a legal sentence? Because if it's not a
legal sentence, then it is not a matter of eluding "justice".

~~~
kombine
That is just one example, others are Berezovsky, Chichvarkin, Akhmed Zakayev
to name the few. You should know who Berezovsky is, Chichvarkin created a
retail chain for mobile electronics who had his business expropriated by some
high ranking cops and Zakayev is a former Chechen rebel. This is what I can
bring on top of my head, but I'm sure there are a lot more.

~~~
dreamfactory
Berezovsky is also dead

------
cryptokill
This stuff proves to me that these programs have no value in stopping things
that have not yet happened. Like the boston bombings and this guy, I sure
there was a huge trail of evidence that didn't get identified in time to stop
the actual act.

~~~
joonix
Or that the programs are not being abused widely for surveillance outside of
their stated purpose?

~~~
revscat
Not worth it. The risk from totalitarian regimes is far greater than the risk
from terrorism. Governments have more resources, by far. Even if we assume
that PRISM is being used completely above-the-board the potential for abuse is
still large enough to warrant reconsideration.

------
grandalf
China would turn Snowden over to US authorities only in exchange for the
return of Chinese protesters given asylum in the US.

The "China is an oppressive regime" meme makes up a lot of US propaganda and
is used to justify all kinds of policies. So the US is put in the awkward
position of not being able to engage in the usual diplomatic trade.

Hong Kong is useful b/c it represents the future of Chinese society and is a
concentration of wealth and influence. By letting Snowden stay in HK, China
can appease its own population while also appearing to stand strong against
the US government's demands.

The best hope for the USG is that this blows over. Snowden seems fairly savvy
about the media's role and if he's able to continue to shape the discussion
there might actually be meaningful outcomes.

~~~
rayiner
> The "China is an oppressive regime" meme

It's not a meme. It's fact.

~~~
cloudwizard
This brings up the idea that Snowden fled the US to a place that he felt would
be more free.

~~~
chatmasta
HK != China

~~~
mhurron
Hong Kong is China and has been since 1997.

~~~
seclorum
One country, two systems.

------
rayiner
> According to an interview with The Guardian, 29-year-old Edward Snowden,
> whose revelations have created a political uproar, has stashed himself in an
> unidentified luxury hotel in Hong Kong, a city he said he chose as the best
> place to hunker down given its “spirited commitment to free speech and the
> right of political dissent.”

You mean the place that has no political freedom to speak of and exists under
the PRC's thumb?

~~~
pyre
HK has more political freedom than the rest of the PRC. I've heard of protests
there that would be illegal anywhere else in the PRC. IIRC, you also need
special travel papers to go to HK from the rest of the PRC.

------
AhtiK
Isn't a luxury hotel the worst place to hide?

I'm sure there are cameras and one is easily recognized when getting out of
the room.

Or is this just a 48h maneuver to clear up the political situation and then if
needed move to one of the embassies in HK that is more supportive?

~~~
EthanHeilman
>I'm sure there are cameras and one is easily recognized when getting out of
the room.

All those cameras and employees become a protection. Remember when Israel
assassinated that arms trafficker in a luxury hotel and all the video footage
was released to the internet. It blew ~10+ operatives cover and caused a major
diplomatic row about the fake passports used.

If the US took action at the hotel the cost in terms of US covert operatives
in China blown would be in 10-100s of millions of dollars in training and
recruitment. If the US used a third party they would expose that third party
to Chinese intelligence. Not including the media firestorm such an action
would cause.

All security is about raising the cost to the attacker, he has raised it
significantly but the US still act if Obama so choose. From the US perspective
the damage is done, why bring more negative PR at such a high cost?

------
barredo
Maybe he was ignorant, maybe he was spot on.

Maybe his hypothetical extradition will cause a sort-of diplomatic "mess"
between Beijing and Honk Kong, leaving him a limbo where neither HK nor China
will grant him total asylum but wont extradite him either

~~~
latch
There are two areas where SAR have little independence: defense and foreign
affairs. Hong Kong will have its own money, postal service, justice,
environment ministry, police, ....but it doesn't have a military and its
foreign affairs tends to be limited to economic matters.

------
macspoofing
Here's a cynical interpretation: Hong Kong makes zero sense given that they
are a) within Chinese sphere of influence and b) frequently extradites to the
US. He's go other sensitive documents he may sell to the Chinese in exchange
for money and sanctuary. So maybe that was the plan all along. Everyone
focuses on the NSA wire-tapping scandal (which, honestly, I think everyone
assumed was happening for years), and he gets a payout and some cover.

Too cynical?

~~~
resu_nimda
I don't think it makes sense. Like he said in his interview, he could have
just sold the stuff he already leaked. Why then would he bother with the whole
trouble of very publicly becoming America's Most Wanted? He sounded pretty
sincere about doing this for the good of the American people. He claims he
made a concerted effort to not reveal any information that could harm
individuals, which appears to hold up.

I would think (hope) he has some cards up his sleeve to protect himself, but
at this point I think all the double-agent/working with China talk is wild
conjecture.

~~~
macspoofing
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing to go on. Edward's disclosure was
responsible, and certainly served a public good, and so far he should be
lauded for it. It was a brave act. I understand him fleeing and seeking asylum
in another country given that there is little chance he would get a 'fair'
trial here (as has been shown by the way Bradley Manning and Aaron Swartz have
been treated)... but of all places ... China??!? He's not an idiot, so he must
have thought this through but it makes no sense.

~~~
slygent
HK != China. How many times should we do this?

~~~
macspoofing
China can veto any extradition.

HK and US have a mutual extradition treaty for actions that are illegal in
both countries. Presumably leaking state secrets is illegal in HK.
Furthermore, HK is quite willing to extradite to US and does so on regular
basis.

So the question of why China (or HK if you prefer), remains.

~~~
dlitz
I think it's been answered here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5853901](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5853901)

Hong Kong currently has a moratorium on extradition of asylum seekers.

------
mikegioia
I would guess that he's not even in Hong Kong anymore, nor at the time of his
interview.

~~~
_k
I think he was in Hong Kong for the interview. If he wasn't, the government
would use it against him in an attempt to make him look like a liar, an enemy
of the state.

------
JonnieCache
Maybe he knows something we don't? Just a guess.

------
tungwaiyip
All the press and comments assume his ultimate goal is to avoid extradition,
which has not been requested so far. I think he know the consequence of his
action very well. He wants to expose the government surveillance program and
draw public outrage. If US government do request for extradition, this will go
through the court system in Hong Kong. Hopefully it will be a fairly
transparent system and give him another chance to raise the awareness of this
program. He might end up in jail, but this would fulfill his goal, that is to
expose the surveillance program to the greatest extend possible.

------
chris_mahan
Maybe because he knows what the NSA capabilities are in Hong Kong?

------
arbuge
I'm also surprised he chose HK - it seems dicey to me. Off the cuff, there are
other places that come to mind as being more promising spots. Having followed
the Roman Polanski saga a few years back, for instance, I would have thought
France would be a proven destination for anyone seeking to avoid US
extradition.

------
JamisonM
I am baffled too, given that Ecuador offered Assange asylum wouldn't that be
the most logical choice? I quick "vacation" down to Costa Rica and overland to
Ecuador if you want to avoid raising suspicions and travel restrictions.

~~~
jjs
> down to Costa Rica and overland to Ecuador

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_Gap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_Gap)

~~~
vinceguidry
Most people cross the Gap by boat. It's 'overland' in the sense that you don't
have to get on a plane.

------
uvdiv
Then again, if Snowden were hypothetically spying for the PRC, Hong Kong would
be the _most_ logical place to seek protection. In this scenario the PRC would
credibly protect him from the US, and European liberal democracies would not.

~~~
Spearchucker
If he was spying, then why Hong Kong, and why not Beijing directly?

~~~
liotier
Protection, balanced with plausible deniability.

~~~
fab13n
Once you're protected, there's no more need for denying.

~~~
liotier
I mean deniability for the Chinese : Hong Kong is independent enough that they
can claim powerlessness to their American partners, but they are the elephant
in the room and can ensure that they keep actual control of the situation.

------
alex_doom
I've been doubting that he actually IN Hong Kong at the moment. He may have
been there at some point and did the interview there, but I would have hoped
he burned his location and is currently in another country.

------
chiph
Note to journalists: Please stop using the Orwellian term "Rendition". The
proper term for bringing a suspect back to face a judge is "Extradite"

~~~
aidenn0
Actually Extradition is subset of Rendition (which involves any transfer
between jurisdictions), which is not at all an orwellian term.

It has only taken on its more negative connotations since the use of
"Extraordinary Rendition." Had the term used for that behavior been
"Extraordinary Extradition" then you would be complaining when journalists use
the term "Extradition"

------
joeco
Too many batman movies

------
kombine
So why didn't he go to Iceland in the first place? And would Hong Kong let him
out if he decides to leave right now, before the US issued any warrant?

~~~
tracker1
The cover was medical tourism... HK is known for it, Iceland isn't... Also HK
is currently in a state of flux in terms of it's asylum process... So he can
stay while they even sort out the process of applying/approval etc... it's
rather brilliant.

------
7952
A more interesting question is why he made himself public at all.

------
brianbreslin
what would really be the best place to hideout? are there any countries where
he would be free of us extradition threats given his high profile nature?

~~~
cglace
My guess would be Venezuela or Cuba.

------
kghose
Who is funding him?

~~~
junto
He earned $200,000 a year. Maybe he has some savings.

~~~
kghose
To me, the real story is possibly how the government over pays contractors.

The other real story is not that the government does this, it is that the
government did not tell us it did this. THAT makes it underhand.

If the government came out and said, look we are storing who calls whom and
asking telecos to store that information and, with judicial oversight, we will
access that information, and we had a debate about it, that would be the
proper way.

The government is taking the course "It is better to ask forgiveness than
permission".

Obama is going to take the rap for this, and I therefore wonder at the timing.
I think it is important to realize two things

1\. Obama continued the Bush era policies 2\. Obama continued the Bush era
policies

Either that is the ONLY way security can be done, or there is some powerful
faction within the bureaucracy which has gotten used to working in the
shadows.

I think that there is some bunch of bureaucrats who have gotten too used to
having information at hand.

I think we as a community need to keep using the regular methods offered to us
via democracy (like posting on this online forum) to express our wish that

a) We be told what the government is doing b) Express our displeasure at the
direction the style of governance is going

~~~
trotsky
There is so much demand in maryland for IT that has a clearance that it bids
up the price of anyone reasonably competetant.

~~~
JPKab
He lives in Hawaii....

~~~
gknoy
And cost of living there is ridiculous.

