
Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out About Lack of Gear - Reedx
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/hospitals-tell-doctors-they-ll-be-fired-if-they-talk-to-press
======
Reedx
There's also this: "Many hospitals bar doctors and other staff members from
wearing protective masks in public areas. Some have been disciplined for
pushing back."

[https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/health/hospitals-
coronavi...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/health/hospitals-coronavirus-
face-masks.html)

How do we put a swift end to this nonsense? Surely the public will be
overwhelmingly on the side of doctors, nurses and other healthcare workers.

~~~
save_ferris
I don't see a solution that puts a swift end to this. The power asymmetry
between employers and workers is so vast that situations like these are
inevitable.

We can't continue to live in this fantasy where companies have so much power
over workers and their futures. But changing this involves organizing labor,
which is deeply stigmatized in the US.

~~~
lonelappde
Doctors are the strongest guild in USA. They have the legal power to enforce a
chronic shortage of doctors. That's why why PAs were invented.

~~~
save_ferris
You're proving my point. If one of the most powerful labor groups in the
economy is being subjected to ruthless firing for speaking out on critical
health issues during a national crisis, then what does that say about the
state of labor in the US in general?

~~~
deskamess
Are they (Doctors) misunderstanding the environment? Surely in this particular
case, firing the Doctor looks bad on the hospital. Leverage/PR is with the
Doctor. Perhaps I am reading it wrong.

~~~
save_ferris
Negative PR is a poor tool to bring about meaningful change as it works very
inconsistently. Zoom, Facebook, Equifax, etc. have all experienced sustained
negative PR with little effect to their bottom line or operational structure.
PR is also purchased, and companies spend heavily to rehab their image online.

Hospitals also are fairly well insulated from negative PR as well since they
don't operate in a free market, which prevents patients from being able to
choose to go elsewhere.

------
throwawaylalala
Isn't this a violation of OSHA safe workplace conditions?

It's a known, lethal, virus, and they're not letting people protect
themselves, especially if they aren't providing that protection themselves.

They must "Provide a workplace free of health and safety hazards that can
cause death or serious injury;"

[https://employment.findlaw.com/workplace-
safety/protecting-y...](https://employment.findlaw.com/workplace-
safety/protecting-yourself-from-unsafe-working-conditions.html)

Perhaps they'd rather get a call from OSHA? Would they perhaps prefer their
nurses call OSHA first?

In Florida, there's a law for whistle blower healthcare workers.
[https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/whistleblower-
protectio...](https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/whistleblower-protection-
laws-for-healthcare-workers)

If the choice is be fired or die (or have a better chance of dying), they
should file an OSHA violation and call out.

~~~
joshstrange
> Isn't this a violation of OSHA safe workplace conditions?

The practices nurses/doctors are doing _today_ are in violation of OSHA
(mask/shield re-use and the like) and they would have been fired or strongly
reprimanded just a few months ago for doing what they are being told to do
now. To add insult to injury they aren't letting them protect themselves
because it would further prove how unprepared these hospitals were.

------
quercus
A friend is an MD at a large Bay Area hospital. He actually quit his job over
this situation, just didn't feel safe going to work. I can't imagine being put
in that position by an employer.

------
jacquesm
It's not hospitals that do this. It's management, and management has names and
faces, they're people. Expose the fuckers.

------
Der_Einzige
The publicity alone from something like this will backfire so so so hard.
Those doctors or nurses fired will have no problem getting jobs. The people
who do the firing will be roasted over a metaphorical fire for this.

No, keep yelling about it loudly to everyone! We get that a hospital can't
magically fix PPE issues - but that doesn't mean that you can just suppress
stories about it.

~~~
defterGoose
Exactly. If there's ever a time for propaganda, it's _not_ now.

------
dublinben
This is probably illegal retaliation. Organizing with coworkers about
workplace conditions is a protected activity.

~~~
frandroid
You're probably right that this is technically illegal, but talking to the
media is a different action than organizing with coworkers...

------
frandroid
This is a self-solving problem for the doctors speaking out. If the hospital
would rather fire them than ensure their safety, then getting fired can save
these doctors' lives.

~~~
save_ferris
It might be hard for them to get jobs after, though. I'm not in healthcare,
and I know that doctors are always in high demand, but we can't ignore the
cost to those protesting by risking their careers. So many whistleblowers face
intense retaliation and career problems after coming forward, and I'm sure
being perceived as a snitch wouldn't do one any favors down the road, even if
you're a doctor.

------
wayanon
It's weird that if anyone's being fired it's the doctors - who needs them
afterall !

------
polotics
In practical terms: is there any way to short / defund / LBO / reorganize the
NYU Langone Health system. Who runs this?

~~~
mancerayder
Can you kindly wait a few months first? Pragmatism before virtue.

~~~
noad
We already shut down our entire civilization so that the healthcare status quo
could be maintained and bills can keep getting sent to the correct address.
How on earth is that pragmatic?

We could open up massive free clinics in every city tomorrow morning. Nothing
is stopping us.

~~~
Loughla
>We already shut down our entire civilization so that the healthcare status
quo could be maintained and bills can keep getting sent to the correct
address.

What a garbage interpretation of what is going on. Jesus Christ, I'm jaded and
cynical, but that's just too much.

Saying that we don't want to overwhelm our medical capacity because of the
billing, versus the actual reason of human deaths. Too much. That's just too
much.

~~~
zozbot234
The amount of medical capacity around is very much a function of "status quo"
institutions and frameworks. Maybe not billing per se, but plenty of other
stuff that's nonetheless quite relevant.

~~~
chongli
No, the medical capacity is limited by equipment and training. The medical
status quo is based around normal, everyday life, where a wide variety of
conditions and diseases need to be treated. It’s not an institutional problem
that we don’t have the capacity to treat millions of people with pneumonia, as
all of that capacity would be wasted during normal times.

------
davidg109
Former PM for a hospital. Listen, I have a lot of trust and respect for
physicians, moreso now than ever.

Unfortunately, there are some bad apple physicians who are very aware of the
power they wield and if they feel something needs improvement, they will be
extremely vocal... Sometimes at the detriment of the truth.

I've been subject to the spread of misinformation by a couple of physicians
related to some past projects, and it's not pretty. All you can do is try to
re-educate these same physicians who are misunderstanding some facts, and as
you can imagine, it's an uphill battle.

I would make the effort to understand both sides of the coin before assuming
these "big, bad" hospitals are in the wrong. As they say, the truth is often
somewhere in the middle.

~~~
vsskanth
The ask in this context seems to be simple - adequate PPE while treating a
highly infectious virus.

Evidence from Spain suggests medical professionals on the frontline are at
very high risk.

maybe you can share why you think it is unfair on the hospitals in this case ?

~~~
verylittlemeat
I'm not the OP but I have read a bit about how "adequate PPE" can be
controversial.

It really boils down to how long certain ppe can be used, what is the risk of
infection from reused ppe and how to sanitize ppe effectively.

I'll leave the dispute over the facts to the experts but from my understanding
that is the source of the conflict over ppe.

------
k__
Friend of mine, a nurse, told me she shouldn't get herself tested so she could
keep working and don't get isolated at home.

~~~
stallmanite
Can we agree that that is severely misguided?

------
vkou
Remember when authoritarian countries were punishing doctors for whistle-
blowing?

Anyone who has ever worked for a living should not be surprised that this sort
of behaviour is alive and well here, too.

~~~
lonelappde
In the USA we have free market oppression, not State-controlled.

~~~
kwhitefoot
Presumably that makes it much more efficient and cost effective.

------
covid_stassi
Anonymous new profile, my apologies. My partner wasn't comfortable with me
saying this stuff in a public way. They work in the emergency department of a
hospital in North America.

It's not just that they'll be fired if they speak out...

The hospitals are also threatening to withhold worker's compensation payouts
if a staff member is caught using anything brought from home, even if it's
real, name brand equipment. Got some N95s leftover from that home improvement
project? Leave them at home and use this surgical mask instead (still better
than nothing, to be fair). They are asking staff members to inform on other
staff. To be clear: these policies were in effect for an area with coughing
COVID patients. They do put surgical masks on the patients, which is very
helpful, but I'm livid that they then ask the nurses to NOT use N95s in this
scenario.

They are also undertaking dubious re-use and cleaning procedures that are not
scientifically proven. For example, masks (both surgical and N95s, which are
only for workers doing things like intubation) are being used for an entire
day (also not correct usage) and then placed in paper folders for a week. At
the end of the week, the masks are deemed 'clean' and reused by the same staff
member. Kind of like a mask for each day of the week. There is not strong
scientific evidence this is an effective or safe procedure. These procedures
might work, but there isn't testing proving that fact.

I understand hospitals are in a bind here. There are simply not enough masks
available (both surgical and N95) in the world. If the hospitals admit their
ad-hoc procedures are ineffective they risk short term mutiny in their staff
ranks. They also risk long term litigation by admitting they can't protect
staff. Unfortunately their approach of 'clamp down hard on dissent' is
preventing the real message from being broadcast loudly enough: It should be
blindingly clear we need a crash program to ramp domestic PPE manufacturing by
an order of magnitude (or two).

As an aside, please call your senators and representatives and ask them to
force the Trump administration to use the DPA to bring more PPE capacity
online. It's really too late now, but better late than never. We'll need to
establish permanent manufacturing capacity for this anyways so we never get
caught out like again.

~~~
op03
What is the rationale for not being allowed to bring stuff from home?

~~~
covid_stassi
I think officially it is that they don't know what the employees are bringing
from home. They could be bringing some knockoff mask that offers very little
protection. But come on, you can't use a mask with 3M stamped on it that you
bought at Home Depot?

I'll also speculate that it could create friction between staff - How come you
get protect and I don't? It could be a problem.

~~~
quicklyfrozen
If you allow it, then it could also be seen as a tacit acknowledgement that
n95 masks are really the proper equipment. Logical, in a terrible way.

------
thebiss
This will not prevent professionals with strong morals from speaking out.
Instead of giving their names, they should carefully proceed as confidential
sources or anonymous sources.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reporter%27s_privilege](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reporter%27s_privilege)

------
freepor
What an empty threat. A hospital is not going to fire staff at the moment of
greatest demand, and a doctor with an intact credential can get hired anywhere
they want in a split second. Maybe the hospitals can bully the nurses
assistants and support staff, so the doctors need to step up and speak on
their behalf too.

~~~
segmondy
but they are, search the news.

~~~
freepor
Yeah, and a doctor can get a job anywhere else in a heartbeat. Doctors
effectively do all their “whiteboard interviews” up front and don’t have to
deal with it later in their career.

------
ashildr
Well, what do you expect from China? They are not exactly known to value human
rights and safety of their workers...

------
Shorel
I am no doctor.

But if I have to choose between speaking out and dying, I would probably speak
out.

------
anorphirith
I hope they get fired, it'll save their own lives

------
artur_makly
someone just spin up a whistleblower site/twitter account ;-)

------
java-man
we need to start firing administrators who issue these orders.

~~~
tandr
Would be interesting to hear how would you propose to do so during on-going
emergency?

~~~
java-man
@tandr: let's start with the government and other administrators listening to
the experts in the field, instead of covering their a __es.

when the medical professionals who are fighting in the front line trenches say
we don't have enough PPE, react by providing the said PPE to said medical
professionals.

when medical professionals say things are going to get worse exponentially,
provide them tools to fight the contagion instead of proclaiming "it's a hoax"
on the national TV.

