
Record Industry: Limewire Could Owe $75 Trillion - nikhilpandit
http://www.crunchgear.com/2011/03/24/record-industry-limewire-could-owe-75-trillion-judge-absurd/
======
grellas
Bad lawyering here: as an advocate, it is good to assert every valid legal
position that makes sense for a case but it is always bad to cast your
client's position in a light that holds it up to ridicule and mockery. When
that happens, any valid claim that might exist gets caught in the downdraft
caused by your bad judgment and the whole case is compromised.

I feel for the judges trying to apply 1976 statutory law to modern technology.
The 1976 revamp of the Copyright Act was the last comprehensive one and its
major purpose was to account for the effect (since the enactment of the 1909
Act then in effect) of motion pictures, sound recordings, radio and other
then-modern forms of communication on IP laws. Common law is made by judges
case-by-case and it is by nature slow and evolving, as is a parallel type of
judge-made law based on case-by-case interpretation of old statutes. It is
precisely the vacuum left by this case-by-case handling of an antiquated set
of statutes that creates the problems today. What is needed is a comprehensive
statutory enactment by Congress to bring these laws up to date and to make
them fair. Even if that means keeping copyright under the rubric of "property"
and defining wrongs in that area as "thefts," this can still be done fairly by
defining sensible penalties that are commensurate with the scope of any wrong
committed.

Of course, to do this, you need Congress to break free from the grip of
lobbyists whose influence would inevitably distort the amending process. Good
luck with that.

~~~
bane
One thing this _will_ shed light on though is how absurd the current laws are
w/r to damages.

------
mixmax
Being a businessperson I really don't understand the recording industry's
strategy.

They know that their industry is under heavy disrpution and that their old
income model is increasingly obsolete. Thus they need to innovate and find new
sources of income, while milking their old sources for all they're worth. This
much everyone agrees on, including the recording industry.

They have done no innovation, and I can't point to any serious attempts. They
must have seen this coming but it took Apple and their Itunes to implement a
system that actually worked. Before Itunes there was no easy legal way for me
to download music. The recording industry did nothing. At the same time
they're using their resources to alienate their customers as much as humanly
possible by suing them and harrassing them at every turn. Not a day goes by
where I don't see some kind of bad press for the industry, ranging from
articles like this to takedown notices on youtube.

Go to the local mall and ask the cool kid who hangs out with the cool girls
what he thinks of the recording industry. He'll tell you that they're
bloodsucking maggots because he's seen the same articles and takedown notices
that I have. And he'll tell you that there's noway he's giving them money, and
that you shouldn't either. He's the opinion leader that all industries need to
be friendly with.

A whole industry whose best idea of making money is to sue their customers
needs to seriously rethink their strategic stance.

~~~
wmf
Their behavior may be rational if they believe that no new business model can
work.

~~~
mixmax
Interesting point, but I don't think that's what's happening. If it is then
some people need to be fired.

Apple is raking in _billions_ from itunes that could have gone to the
recording industry.

~~~
wmf
The labels are already getting 70% of every sale; it's hard to imagine that
getting 80-90% would save the industry.

------
smhinsey
You owe the bank $10,000 and don't pay, you have a problem.

You owe the bank $10,000,000 and don't pay, the bank has a problem.

You owe the RIAA $75,000,000,000,000 and don't pay, who has the problem?

This seems like a great example of what I am sure will be an increasingly
common problem as more and more laws are written by lobbyists. What do you do
when they don't make any sense and were clearly never thought through?

It's so hard to be optimistic about the world in the face of this sort of
thing, especially when there are instances of it everywhere you turn.

~~~
jerf
Your analogy doesn't hold, because the first two are debts and the third is
compensation for damages. You owe $75 trillion in illusory damages to a party,
it's still _you_ who has the problem. If we were talking real damages it might
hold, but we're not talking real damages. And of course you can't pay $75
trillion, but you sure can be driven bankrupt.

------
cheald
I think that when you ask for more money than the GDP of _the entire world_
you should be laughed out of court and then slapped with a punitive judgment
for wasting the court's time and resources.

But that's just me.

------
lmkg
The real story here is that the RIAA's claims finally got so ridiculous, the
judge called bullshit and is suggesting a different way of calculating
damages. Specifically, for the law that assigns a $ value per work infringed,
he's suggesting interpreting that value as per distinct work infringed rather
than per individual copy made.

~~~
sambeau
The judge is a 'she'

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimba_Wood>

------
sambeau
I was a young music fan who taped music because I loved music and had no
money. I now buy lots of of music because I love music and have money.

I do not pirate music and I buy (or legally stream) TV and video. But I
clearly remember and resent the late nineties and early 2000s when a CD was
£15.99 in HMV or Tower (close to $30 in old money).

(I am also fairly convinced that there was price-fixing and monopolistic
behaviour then)

Now we have a more open, fairer system for artists and consumers - yet rather
than accept that they have been caught-out and the world has moved-on without
them the record companies are lashing out at young music fans rather than
nurturing and encouraging them.

If you ever needed a reminder of the greed of the recording industry here it
is.

~~~
stanleydrew
"(I am also fairly convinced that there was price-fixing and monopolistic
behaviour then)"

There was a class action lawsuit in the US covering exactly that back in 2004
or so. I think I got about $7 from the settlement.

------
timsally
The Judge noted in her opinion about this that $75 Trillion is more money than
has been printed since Thomas Edison invented the phonograph. Your first
reaction may be to rail against the lawyers of the record industry, but
realize they are just asking for the maximum allowed by federal law ($30,000
per infringement). Indeed, one might argue it is a lawyer's duty to seek the
maximum amount of damages allowed, just as it is your accountant's job to
arrange your taxes so you pay the minimum allowed by law. The real problem is
the disconnect of the law itself with reality. I'm in no way endorsing the
behavior of the record industry (imagine how well they'd be doing if they had
bought Napster instead of suing it?). I'm merely seeking to point out the root
of the problem. If the law was written more intelligently, dying industries
wouldn't be able to get life support from the courts.

~~~
fleitz
Judges don't have a problem with absurd penalties. US Judges routinely hand
out multiple life sentences served consecutively. Or life sentences for
victimless crimes.

It doesn't matter how the law was written take something simple that anyone
could understand like the Interstate Commerce Clause. Now put it in front of
the supreme court all of a sudden growing plants in your closet is interstate
commerce. Even though the person had no intention of selling it, let alone out
of state. The law will be contorted by those in power to serve exactly what
they want to do.

~~~
timsally
Do the drug laws in this country need reform? Yes. Are the penalties for non-
violent drug crimes particularly harsh? Sure. Is the entire system of law so
contorted and corrupt that it's completely the control of "those in power" as
you call them? I rather doubt it. Such an extraordinarily claim requires
extraordinary evidence and you've provided none. You've simply waved your
hands around and grumbled about how judges "routinely" hand out multiple life
sentences, without including any proof, context, or analysis how this alleged
fact supports your argument.

Clearly the angle you're approaching this issue from is that of marijuana
legalization. Consider this: the fact that you are unable to have a rational
view of our justice system is one reason why decriminalization/legalization is
taking so damn long. Remember Prop 19? It is one of the most incompetent
pieces of legislation I've ever read, mostly in part because of attitudes like
yours that the justice system is completely broken and out to ruin the lives
of every pot smoker in the US. A good summery of some of the more fundamental
issues with Prop 19 here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1864578> and
here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1865987>. Point is that the justice
system isn't the boogie man, and the thought that it was is what caused Prop
19 to be such garbage. I honestly have no idea where the idea comes from. Last
time I checked weed was decriminalized in 12 states and many townships in the
US. I'm not trying to convolute the main line of discussion here, but the
subtext beneath your post needs to be addressed.

Finally, if you actually believe the rather macabre view of the justice system
you're espousing, you should pack up and move out of the country. I for one
couldn't live in a country with a justice system like the one you describe.
There's a world of difference in believing the justice system in imperfect and
in need of reform (my personal view) and your view which seems to be that it's
completely broken.

~~~
Retric
No individual or group in the country has all the power. However, most of the
power is split up among a minority of players and corruption and abuses of
power run rampant.

Small scale: I know someone who did serious time because he picked up some
drugs for a old friend who was trying to get a lighter sentence. This is
someone who had never sold drugs, and stooped using a while ago. But
transportation = distribution and "entrapment" does not count when the cops
use a third party.

Large Scale: UBS whistleblower Bradley Birkenfeld is the only person to due
time over a multi billion dollar tax fraud.

PS: Don't forget the recording industry is only worth 12 billion a year, yet
protecting that tiny cash flow is worth more than pissing off all those
pirates.

------
yannickmahe
That's actually more than the Gross World Product...

~~~
dibarra
The CIA Factbook cites the 2010 estimate for GDP at $74.48 trillion:

[https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/...](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/geos/xx.html)

Also of interest, another number close to this is the world's stock of broad
money, at around $75.86 trillion. Because this is comprised of all money in
circulation, plus the total quantity of money in money market funds, credit
union deposits, and other liquid assets, the top end of what is being asked
for is almost literally, all of the money in the world.

~~~
quickpost
> the top end of what is being asked for is almost literally, all of the money
> in the world.

LOL, now THAT is awesome. The RIAA would be the perfect villain if they
weren't so ridiculous.

~~~
kenjackson
I wish that's how the RIAA did the calculation.

Judge: "What are the damages?"

RIAA: "How much money is there in the world? We'll start with that. No,
seriously."

------
chrismealy
If there's really that much value in free music then there's a heck of a case
for making music a freely available public good.

~~~
bane
The good news is that there is _tons_ of legally free music available these
days. The internet has let lots of hobbyists, some pretty darn good, publish
music that would have otherwise languished in their home studios.

------
olivercameron
Assuming the damages Limewire will have to pay total an astronomical amount,
who on earth pays for it? Do the founders take on the debt for the rest of
their lives or what?

~~~
redthrowaway
I'm assuming that Limewire is an LLC, which means its debts (don't always)
transfer to its principals. This would likely mean Limewire is liquidated and
the plaintifs get dibs on whatever is made from that.

~~~
mnutt
LimeWire is incorporated as an LLC but plaintiffs are trying to pierce the
corporate veil and name the founder personally.

~~~
redthrowaway
>plaintiffs are trying to pierce the corporate veil

They're also trying to get a $75 _T_ judgment. I'd suggest what they are
seeking and a likely reality don't overlap much.

~~~
mnutt
In this case, the court gave them exactly what they asked for:

"As a result of the actions and benefits described above, Lime Group and
Gorton are liable for LW’s inducement of infringement. See Capitol Records,
Inc., 218 F. Supp. 2d at 284-85; Blum v. Kline, 1988 WL 52916, *2 (S.D.N.Y.
May 17, 1988) (finding that president of defendant corporation could be found
liable for infringement because he “owns all of [the corporation’s] shares and
is responsible for [its] daily activities.”)."

(full summary judgement here: [http://www.scribd.com/doc/31272055/Arista-
Records-Summary-Ju...](http://www.scribd.com/doc/31272055/Arista-Records-
Summary-Judgment-Opinion))

~~~
redthrowaway
Well that's mildly disappointing. I guess he'll have to declare bankruptcy.

I still think the judgement should be payable in mass emails of pictures of
$20 bills.

------
narrator
This is the record industry's inflation adjusted Doctor Evil moment.

~~~
daniel-cussen
Roughly the same amount too.

------
impendia
Simple. Just dig out your checkbook, write out a check for
$75,000,000,000,000, sign and date it, smile, and invite RIAA to take it to
the bank and see what happens.

~~~
VladRussian
knowingly passing a bad check is a crime.

A bit modifying your idea, the Limewire LLC should just accept the 75T debt or
even willingly accept another couple hundred T on top of it. Let it be round
1000T to cover any future violations.

------
helwr
Dr. Evil: "Here's the plan. We get the warhead, and we hold the world ransom
for.....One MILLION DOLLARS!!"

No.2: "Ahem...Don't you think we should maybe ask for _more_ than a million
dollars?"

------
jason_slack
$75 Trillion..

Apparently the RIAA has figured out how to get blood from a stone?

------
csomar
Actually the judge is looking to help them by suggesting that their estimate
is bullsh*t, since they are very unlikely to get $75 Trillion.

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vain
just curious here, but how much money has the record industry made since the
beginning of time?

~~~
Dramatize
Not much with Limewire stealing $75t worth of music from them.

------
maeon3
I think its high time that the RIAA should be referenced by its members rather
than the face-less acronym.

Imagine how much it would hurt someone like Sony if each time a bad article,
comment or story reached the masses it had the words representing Sony in the
title.

The largest and most influential of the members of the RIAA are the "Big Four"
that include:

    
    
        * EMI
    
        * Sony Music Entertainment
    
        * Universal Music Group
    
        * Warner Music Group

~~~
mnutt
And rightly so; as far as these cases are concerned the RIAA is merely a PR
instrument. The plaintiffs are the record labels, not the RIAA.

------
TheSwede75
Do we really need any further evidence of the desperation and general
incompetence of the entertainment industry.

Never have I seen an entire industry act so horribly wrong to technological
advances as the music industry in the face of Internet.

