
US burns through all high-skill visas for 2015 in less than a week - sbashyal
http://techcrunch.com/2014/04/07/us-burns-through-all-high-skill-visas-for-2015-in-less-than-a-week/
======
tokenadult
What is that makes the United States such an attractive place to immigrate to
for people whose skill sets could take them almost anywhere in the world? (In
other words, why is that successive sessions of Congress can basically count
on lots of people desiring to live in the United States, thus setting up an
environment in which immigration regulation is restrictive rather than open?)

(I'm genuinely curious about this, as an American who has lived overseas--with
the proper visas of course--for three years in the 1980s and for three years
spanning the turn of the last century. I've only lived long-term in one other
country, so I still could learn a lot more from all of you who participate
here on HN about why people leave their country of birth, which is surely
disruptive, to go to another country to live. What's the big deal about living
in the United States?)

~~~
ebiester
There are only a few really good places to live for an educated worker. Japan,
Australia, Western and Northern Europe, Canada, and the US. I will
operationalize "good" as "an intelligent worker can make an exceptional living
relative to their country of origin."

Each of these places only take a limited amount of immigrants each year. Some
are more difficult based on the national language -- learning Danish isn't
more difficult than English or French, but there are fewer learning resources
to do so.

So, your best options for the greatest amount of opportunity is to learn
English -- you have the UK, America, Canada, and Australia as potential
landing spots. (This is, of course, not universal. Developing countries with
French as a national language will prefer France, for example.)

So, the answer is that it's a way out.

~~~
lolwutf
With the advent of remote work upon us, I find it hard that you'd be limited
to those countries.

In fact, literally the ENTIRE WORLD is your oyster, assuming you can reliably,
regularly find power, wifi, and a team that'll work with you on your
timezone's timeframe.

~~~
potatolicious
Remote work is lowering some barriers, but others aren't so easily fixed.

I'm a first-gen immigrant. My family originally moved because of rampant
pollution due to unrestrained industrialization, as well as geopolitical risks
(having air/bomb raid drills in school isn't really that fun). Telecommuting
doesn't really fix these.

Suffice it to say, emigration/immigration is a Big Deal for the people who do
it, and for the most part it isn't being done simply because the jobs are
better. There are usually far more fundamental concerns behind the decision, a
better economy is just one factor out of many.

------
fsk
They really should call them "indentured servant slave visas". The H1-B visa
holder has to leave the country if he gets fired (and doesn't find a new
employer quickly), and if he switches jobs the green card process has to start
over.

Because the H1-B visa employee is legally bound to the job, he becomes more
attractive than hiring a US citizen, (assuming equal salary and
qualification).

~~~
malandrew
The H1-B visa really needs to be completely divorced from the company that
originally applies for it. At the end of the day, the US government makes a
decision if an individual adds value to the country by working for a US
company. Which US company shouldn't matter. The only time the visa should be
re-evaluated in a way that the employer may be deported is if the worker is
fired for cause. Beyond that the visa should belong to the employee, not the
employer.

The fact that the green card process resets if the employee switches jobs is
crazy. That really does make it an "indentured servant slave visa".

~~~
fsk
I'm in favor of immigration. I'm saying give them an unlimited work visa,
instead of making them a slave to the employer.

Also, H1-B visas get 50%-150%+ raises when they get their green card, which
proves that the H1-B visa suppresses wages.

~~~
gdilla
Quite right. It's not a free labor market if laborers aren't free to move
around! H1Bs keep wages down for that very reason. If they were attached to
the worker, not the company, H1B wages would rise overnight.

------
nairteashop
Does anyone know why the number of visas isn't capped on a per-company basis?

Last year, apparently 40,000 of the 85,000 available visas went to outsourcing
companies, and one outsourcing company, Cognizant, got 9,000 visas!

[http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/04/03/176134...](http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/04/03/176134694/Whos-
Hiring-H1-B-Visa-Workers-Its-Not-Who-You-Might-Think)

At my last job, we tried to get an H1 for just _one_ person, and failed in the
lottery!

I feel there would be much less abuse of the H1 if each company could receive
only say 100 visas a year max, or a % of their US workforce size max, or
something.

~~~
JOnAgain
Or just rank em by salary/comp. More skilled people => more valuable to the
economy => receive higher salary => more likely to get visa (=> pay more in
taxes).

~~~
nostromo
I think they should be auctioned off. (Either the company or the individual
could pay the final auction price.)

The end result is the same: the most valuable workers are let in. It'd also
have a small, but nice benefit: a voluntary revenue stream for the US to spend
on whatever it would like (perhaps improved education and training for
citizens).

~~~
tarikjn
This is one of the things I proposed in a comprehensive high-skilled visa
reform proposal:
[https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_yEsHOtzN3yZ3JoYXlTdDh0R0k...](https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_yEsHOtzN3yZ3JoYXlTdDh0R0k/edit?usp=sharing)

Never really got around finishing it and pushing it out tough, although I am
curious to see what the feedback is on it.

~~~
tarikjn
I just made a separate post for discussion on it as it goes a little out of
scope of the subject of H1-Bs:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7550560](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7550560)

------
lmg643
i recently saw a table of firms awarded these visas. it seemed nuts to me that
a large proportion of the visas go to firms whose primary business line is
outsourcing in one form or another.

i typically think of visas as fulfilling unmet hiring needs for domestic US
firms - like Facebook! - but instead see they are largely squirreled away by
firms whose primary function is overseas labor cost arbitrage.

I would be interested to hear informed opinions as to why so many visas go to
these firms. i thought the stated objective is to help american firms meet
their hiring needs where the local work force is deficient.

instead, it seems like all the demand is corralled into a few firms which do
the dirty work for everyone else. if your primary purpose is outsourcing, how
can you plausibly claim to be searching for qualified workers inside the US,
and thus deserving of access to these visas?

~~~
derefr
The visas _are_ helping american firms meet their hiring needs... through the
outsourcing firms. The people who want to hire don't want to be burdened with
the paperwork of actually keeping track of work-visa'ed employees; the
outsourcing firms are willing to take that burden on for them. Everyone wins.

~~~
bdavisx
The "real" (as opposed to outsourcing/staffing) companies that want a visa for
an employee and don't get one because of the cap aren't winning. Plus I'm
guessing the pay / benefits would generally be better at many of those places
as well.

------
firstOrder
> Does turning away highly skilled and educated people due to an artificial
> cap on visas sound silly?

This is a false way of framing things on many levels. First, as Norm Matloff
has extensively documented, they are not all "highly skilled and educated
people". Secondly, they can be given green cards and other such things, why is
this specific visa necessary?

Also, if there's a shortage of talent, then the Silicon Valley CEO's can put
an end to things like their conspiracy to drive down tech wages that is
playing out in the courts, which is something that would obviously depress the
number of engineers applying for jobs. Instead of the federal government
cutting loans and grants to college students, they could expand them if they
want more engineers.

And if there is some humanitarian concern for immigrants, there are waiting
applicants from Africa who have far more of a humanitarian need to get into
the USA then an Indian IIT graduate.

~~~
diegomcfly
If the supply of "highly skilled" people could not keep up with demand (which
is what these companies lobbying Congress for uncapped H1Bs are effectively
saying is the case), then salaries would be rising.

They are not.

/end of story. All other propaganda and testimony by these companies that say
otherwise is bullshit.

~~~
dragonwriter
That's not really true; if the supply could not keep up with demand, the
companies would throw more resources at the problem of meeting their labor
demand -- that might be raising wages (in the most simplistic economic models,
that's the obvious thing), but it might equally be putting resources into
lobbying Congress to allow increased immigration. If they expect lobbying to
pay of greater returns for the investment than higher wages will, then that's
where you'd expect them to put the resources.

~~~
diegomcfly
Sorry .. that is totally disconnected from reality. Not only have wages NOT
risen, they have stagnated (and not kept up with inflation). Further, if you
look at the list (link is in this thread) of the companies along with the #
H1Bs allocated to them/their ranking ... you'll see a certain big blue company
in that list who is in the Top 5. They have been doing layoffs by the 1000s on
a regular basis for years. I know. I work for them. I have seen personally at
least 10 people on actively billing customer engagements (i.e., they were
billing the customer, not riding the bench or working internally, etc.) layed
off. These were highly skilled professionals with good reviews that were doing
great work.

Further, I've seen many dozens of "replacements" come in in the form of H1Bs.
These were literally DIRECT replacements. They were inexperienced and WORSE at
the job.

This is no longer anecdotal. This is happening NOW. All over this country in
the IBMs, Microsofts, etc.

It does not take a genius to see what is going on.

------
fitzpasd
I'm going to be in this lottery and it's unnerving thinking about how
different my life could turn out if I get this visa vs. don't. Young male,
can't imagine I'd try again next year so it could be the difference of a much
higher paying job plus living 5+ years in America vs. staying in my home
country probably for life. Nothing wrong with my home country, but I'm excited
of the prospect of living in America and the experiences that go with.

For people in the same boat: I think it's easier to cope with this if you take
the view that you have to be lucky to get the visa, not unlucky not to. No one
complains of ill-luck when they buy a lottery ticket and don't win millions.
Positivity folks! :)

------
tn13
I am in USA on H1B.

A lot of American problems seem to be around the thinking that there is some
kind "fixed" number of jobs, misery, poverty, disease etc.

A lot of welfare systems here seems to assume that there is a fixed number of
single mothers, disabled etc. without acknowledging the fact that the more
incentives you give to them more people will try to get into that category.
For example more dole you give to disabled I would assume more people would
try to get themselves into disabled bucket than in healthy.

Similarly the H1B cap seems to have an assumption that there are some fixed
number of STEM jobs out there and if Indians fill it up, somehow the Americans
will not get it. I would assume a higher concentration of Engineers in USA
would only lead to more innovation, more engineers trying to earn more money
by being far more creative and so on.

In India a typical outsourcing giant pays somewhere between $5K to $10k per
year to new engineers. The only way I could break such low pay was by getting
a master degree, being an excellent coder and joining a more tech focused
company in Silicon Valley. After reaching Silicon Valley I realized the tech
giant I was working for did not pay me enough. So I changed the job and joined
a start-up which eventually did far well making me richer.

Also the Democrats which beat their chest in the name of poor are actually
those who treat poor the way a Dog treats a lampost. The lampost helps the Dog
navigates but only after it is soaked in his pee.

More engineers would mean cheaper engineering services which means more money
saved for rest of the non-engineering Americans which a overwhelmingly high
population. By putting an artificial cap on H1B American government is forcing
the poor American citizens shell out more money.

~~~
geekam
There is another important point of outsourcing. If there is more competition
here, in the US, then chances of outsourcing to India, China (where pay is
substantially low) will also reduce. That might mean more jobs here, in the
US.

Take Cognizant Technology solutions for example. I know a friend who works for
the company. They are a US company (NJ based) but the majority of their life-
sciences projects are outsourced to India office. They pay my friend one-
thirds of what they charge the client for him in the contract. Him and about 5
other people who work here for the client, send work off-shore to India office
to about 50 people. This model of outsourcing the majority work to India suits
the client because the total costs about one-tenth of what they'd actually pay
if everyone of those employees was hired here, in the US.

Not only is this model hurting jobs in the US, it is bad for the employees
here well. For my friend, he has to work during the day, and then spend most
of the night delegating tasks off-shore. He practically sleeps only over the
weekend.

This might be a one-off example with this specific client only for Cognizant
but I am aware that the profits from pay-scales are company-wide.

------
emdowling
Good to note that this does not include the E3 visa available exclusively to
Australians. Australia never uses its full allocation of 10,000 E3's each year
and they are incredibly easy to get. the candidate simply needs a Bachelor's
degree or higher as well as a job offer. If approved, their spouse is also
instantly eligible for a E3 visa entitling them to work too.

Generally, it takes 2-4 weeks to get one from start to finish if you have a
good immigration lawyer.

This sort of visa should not be exclusive to Australia. As an Aussie, I get
the benefit from it but at the same time, I feel everyone should have access
to it. I hope visa reform comes soon!

Anyone struggling to hire, big or small, should market to Australians. Its
very cheap to fly out and interview a heap of smart candidates who would love
to work for startups in the Bay Area.

~~~
anakha
Are you aware of the details of the free trade agreements Australia signed
with the US? We paid our dues to the US, has to be some reciprocity.

~~~
markdown
> We paid our dues to the US

Indeed. You gave them a base from which to spy on Asia and Oceania. Should
have negotiated visa-free entry for that alone.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Gap](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Gap)

------
ori_b
This article is slightly misleading, IMO.

The agency working on my application specifically timed it so that my
application was submitted on April 1st, when the applications initially
opened, instead of in November when I submitted the paperwork. If all agencies
time applications this way, then the reason that all applications were
exhausted within a week is because the entire year's applicants queued up
until their requests were submitted this week.

This does not detract from the fact that there are too few visas granted,
however, the situation isn't quite as insane as you would expect from reading
this article.

------
lifeisstillgood
A good friend of mine works in the US under a high-Skill visa - as a tenured
professor at Cornell, with oh, the Presidents medal for something very clever.

I think high skilled is a term that we coders are happy to apply to
themselves, but really folks we are not compared to a genuine elite. The
future will be invented by a very small number of brilliant people - the rest
if us are just here to fill in the gaps behind them.

let it go, start building a remote-working-orientated company and hire people
wherever they live. Stop worrying about the country's tax take.

~~~
johngalt
Exactly. Sure _some_ H1-b visas might be used to just increase programmer
supply, but many are like the professor you're talking about. Even catching a
few geniuses in an extremely broad net is an invaluable boon to our country.
Our concerns should be that we are missing some.

~~~
hatu
There is a visa for that.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa)

------
suyash
I"m surprised only 124,000 applications were received. I was expecting the
number to cross 200K. It gives more 85,000/124,000 probability which means
slightly more than 68% of the people have chances of getting the H1B Visa.

~~~
fitzpasd
Not quite 68% because there are two categories: 20,000 for advanced degree
holders and another 65,000. There is an initial lottery between the advanced
degree holders for the 20,000, and then the unsuccessful people go into the
regular lottery. Don't know if the figures were released for the number of
advanced degree holders who applied, but assuming the cap here was also met,
the chances in the main lottery would be 65,000/114,000 = 57%

~~~
suyash
Ok that makes sense but then it's not 57% either for all of them since some
people would end up getting a shot at the lottery twice.

------
bertil
If this is genuinely an issue (I never really tried, I just asked a handful of
interesting offers if they'd consider making the effort and never really
received a positive reaction), why haven’t more companies tried to set up
large teams in Europe and Asia?

I never heard anyone say that Google Zurich (a terrible location, work-visa-
wise) or Sidney didn't fit the bill. Remote work appears to be common practice
— a third of offers consider it, and cools start-ups advertise not having an
office.

------
jrockway
Does it matter? Canada is much more liberal about giving out work visas, so US
companies just open offices in Canada and hire the employees there. Meanwhile,
Canadians can come work in the US under the TN status, which has no quotas.

All the US gets is less tax revenue.

~~~
serge2k
No quotas, but some disadvantages too.

------
blub5
"In 2013, 124,000 people applied for the combined 85,000 slots in the first
five-day period."

Considering that Americans seem to have little difficulty affording computers
and software, yet continue to bankrupted by health care costs, wouldn't it
make a lot more sense to give those 85k visas to cheap doctors from overseas
to drive down medical costs, instead of giving them to cheap foreign
programmers to drive down the wages of American developers?

~~~
serge2k
Except that won't work because they will just come over and charge the same as
every other doctor.

~~~
markdown
Until their second week when they discover that due to increased competition,
they have to lower their rates.

------
mildtrepidation
I can't help seeing this as a higher level in some grotesque cultural fractal
that, somewhere along the line, also involves ticket middlemen monopolizing
admittance to most concerts and shows.

I don't know if they're part of the same problem or the same problem
expressing itself in different ways, but I have a hard time calling this
coincidence.

------
josephschmoe
This is just companies trying to get cheap labor. Work visas are modern
indentured servitude.

------
duaneb
Maybe companies will have to look domestically....

------
norswap
FYI those visas are not the only way to get foreigners to work in the US. But
it is one that is very interesting for companies.

------
ajg1977
Next year they should let people apply for the chance to be randomly selected
to receive a visa.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
That's what they already do. Anyone who applies in the first five days has a
chance of being randomly selected.

------
suyash
Companies who scooped up most the Visa slots last year (2013) are
Outsource/Consulting companies by far:
[http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2013-H1B-Visa-
Sponsor.aspx](http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2013-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx)

------
diegomcfly
Are salaries rising for "high-skilled" domestic workers?

------
huherto
Does anyone have more information ? That article seems to be talking about the
numbers last year.

------
BenefitOfDoubt
>"In the United States, nine percent of computer science graduates are
unemployed, and 14.7 percent of those who hold degrees in information systems
have no job. Graduates with degrees in STEM - science, technology, engineering
and medicine"
[http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/11/surviving-p...](http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/11/surviving-
post-employment-economy-201311373243740811.html)

How does opening up more visas help this? It is not about helping the people
of America. It is about corporations getting richer. There are plenty of
people already here to fill tech jobs.

------
NextUserName
> _124,000 people applied for the combined 85,000_

So if we gave them all Visas - we'd be good for less than two weeks?

Sounds like a bigger problem here.

On a related note, how many _highly skilled and educated people_ live here
already who are currently unemployed?

Two observations.

* Immigrants will go to where the work is. They will live almost anywhere the work is, they are moving already so it is easier than for someone who has roots somewhere.

* Immigrants will work harder and for less money. This is like starting a new job x10. Typically starting a new job - people work their tails off (for the first year or two at least). Think about that plus moving half way around the world just for personal achievement. Imagine the motivation that would give you. You would want to prove yourself, get permanent status, make a lot of money to bring family here ETC. And the money? think about it. Would you take less money for a huge opportunity in life?

Here is the thing though. Bringing in skilled immigrants is great for greedy
capitalism, you get talent, hard work, and for cheap. The problem is - we are
just working around a growing problem. What about the people who already live
here. Not just the adults, but the kids who will be in high school and college
in a few years. Why can't they be the ones who fill these jobs?

Bringing in immigrants is a short term moneymaker for corporations. Longer
term, and in a couple of generations, these immigrants grand kids will be the
ones who don't have a job. Let's put more focus on that aspect rather than
always rallying behind opening the floodgates without properly considering the
ramifications.

~~~
tommu
Einstein, Tesla and Musk. None of those guys would have ended up in the US if
you had any power over immigration policy. Oh.. and are you native? Genuine
question as I have no idea.

~~~
BenefitOfDoubt
What kind of argument is this? You can't argue fate. You could also say that
without the level of immigration we have, the world trade center would never
have been attacked, we would have never invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. Millions
of lives would be saved.

One could say that Einstein changed fate such that a certain person was never
even born who would have surpassed his achievements. This is nonsense and
illogical.

 _In the United States, nine percent of computer science graduates are
unemployed, and 14.7 percent of those who hold degrees in information systems
have no job. Graduates with degrees in STEM - science, technology, engineering
and medicine - are facing record joblessness, with unemployment at more than
twice pre-recession levels. The job market for law degree holders continues to
erode, with only 55 percent of 2011 law graduates in full-time jobs._

[http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/11/surviving-p...](http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/11/surviving-
post-employment-economy-201311373243740811.html)

~~~
tommu
The argument is that if you deny people entry you miss out on talent. It is
that simple. Now you want to deny people with proven talent who's abilities
will further the interests of the nation state. Some of those you deny will
have exceptional abilities. The nation as a whole loses.

It is very sad that nine percent of computer science graduates are unemployed.
Why is that? Why are they not fulfilling the already critical need for skilled
IT workers? A clue - it's not because the immigrants are taking all there
jobs.

Love the quote BTW - from and immigrant news service.

------
zpk
The same company that has a press release that they do not wage collude:

"Not everybody took part in the no-hire agreement: last week, Facebook's
Sheryl Sandberg said the social network rebuffed Google's approaches."

[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/03/30/tech_giants_fail_to_...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/03/30/tech_giants_fail_to_get_hiring_collusion_case_tossed_again/)

Is the same guy pushing for visas to drive down wages:

"Fwd.us, a group founded in part by Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg, has pushed for
immigration reform. Joe Green, another Fwd.us founder, lambasted current law
regarding the cap structure of high-skill visas in an email to TechCrunch,
calling the current set of regulations “dysfunctional.” "

I guess being a prick knows no bounds.

