
Germany's Vanishing Monasteries - hecubus
https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/vanishing-monasteries-in-germany-the-last-of-the-monks-a-1287265.html#ref=rss
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lukebuehler
Great article, but I think it misses one key aspect of why monasteries are
dying out: the lack of lively church communities which used to encourage
dedicated people to join the monastic life. Monasteries don't exist in a
vacuum, they have an intricate interdependency with normal parishes of
families and, more generally, people "in the world." It should not really be
the responsibility of monastics to do public relations to get people to choose
this kind of life. A good example is the abbot from the article, he grew up a
parish, was an altar server, etc., that made it possible for him to even
conceive of this kind of life style--something that is just too big of a chasm
for most non-church people nowadays.

~~~
twic
Wasn't it the case that a lot of second sons became monks because they weren't
going to inherit the family title/land/business/farm, and they had to find
some way to survive? For the upper classes, monasteries were replaced by
militaries, when second sons could go off and have adventures, and perhaps win
a fortune of their own. For everyone else, the advent of wage economies did
the job.

~~~
lukebuehler
There were and are many reasons why people became monastics. But to think that
the only reasons were inheritance and property laws shows that someone only
knows about monasticism from the perspective of modern medieval histories,
which tend to present it this way. Not to deny that these reasons existed and
made many consider monastic life as an option, but it can't be the whole
story.

Think about it, monastic life _really_ was and is monastic. It included many
hours of prayers and other contemplative practices (and other minor
inconveniences like celibacy). Yes, there was great variance in different
orders, but many people (if not most) chose this life because they were true
believers. The only way to prepare them for this life was that the church as a
whole was universally present so that monasticism became just one option
between many different ones within the church, albeit a quite intense one.

~~~
idoubtit
I agree that many people chose to become monks "because they were true
believers", but I know two facts that show that religious belief was not the
only factor for living in a monastery.

First, monks were not the only men to live and work in monasteries. There were
many "sub-ranks" (for instance "frère convers" in French, someone that shared
most of their life without taking the religious vow) as well as external
workers (for centuries, many monasteries had vast domains where monks ruled
over peasants, at various degrees).

Then, becoming a monk was a social ascension for many. This was still true a
few decades ago. My peasant grand-mother had ten children over twenty years,
and the only ones who did not stop their studies early, were the three boys
who wanted to become priests. The will to study and to change their way of
life was a strong incentive. Times changed, and they all found other ways.

------
mgnn
The Concent of Saunt Leibniz.

We can try turning old monasteries into concents à la Neal Stephenson's
Anathem. People can go for a year in a unarian math to just study. Maybe a
four consecutive years in such a math get equivalent recognition to a
university degree. Whether it is the traditional monastic discipline or the
Cartasian discipline, the required basic infrastructure is probably similar.
Jeejahs stay outside, of course.

Particularly determined professors can populate a decennarian, maybe even a
centenarian. Also, isn't there only about 9 years before our scheduled visit
by the Icosahedron?

~~~
sdenton4
My thoughts exactly! I don't have a whole lot of patience for prayer, but
near-infinite time for mathing it up sounds amazing...

------
gtycomb
Recently I was in India and certain circumstances connected me with a facility
for the elderly run by an order of Catholic Nuns. I visited them quite a few
times and while inside those closed gates there was this sense of reverence,
peace, and shall I say holiness in many ways truly tangible. And when they bid
me goodbye at the main gates, even as we stood there chatting a little while,
the town or village people walking by outside the gates would smile and one of
the sisters would call out to ask something about them. These sisters were
involved with this outside world, and knew them and their needs so intimately!
Yes, there is so much to understand about these areas of life us software
engineering types seldom think about, it seems.

~~~
mantoto
By being social you mean?

I also know my neighbors and I'm friendly with them.

~~~
gtycomb
more than that, I'd say. The young auto-rikshaw man on my way to the bus
station from those gates was telling me about his kidney disease and how those
sisters helped raise the substantial money for a transplant ...

~~~
mantoto
That's called community and we as a society should try to create that without
religion.

Also such stories exists

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rpmisms
For all those in this thread talking about monasteries without having ever
been in one, please try the experience. If there's an Orthodox monastery near
you, try seeing if you can stay for a few days. They generally aren't rich by
any stretch of the imagination, but even staying for a few days and following
the lifestyle will give you insight into why the monastic life is a valuable
and valid choice in our increasingly chaotic and bombastic society.

The peace you feel when in one and the sinking feeling going back into "the
world" are both experiences everyone should have.

~~~
telesilla
Actually it seems to be a growing industry: monasteries are opening up their
rooms to paying guests.

We stayed in one in Italy recently, south of Napoli. It was like a very, very
quiet hotel with a peaceful garden and a resident cat. I'd have happily stayed
longer. I was also in one last year in Belgium, it was part of a larger church
establishment but the location was so central it was like staying in a nice
hotel. Again - quiet. Both were without luxuries of a 4 star hotel but very
well appointed and with excellent breakfasts, and locations.

~~~
tathougies
Monasteries have always opened their rooms to guests. Its part of the rule of
Benedict to offer hospitality, including food.

~~~
idoubtit
You seem to have missed an important word in the grand poster's story:
monasteries are opening up their rooms to _paying_ guests. Sanctus Benedictus
never set any rule about renting rooms and selling breakfasts.

By the way, monasteries existed long before the Benedict order, and other
orders existed in parallel. Some monasteries did not welcome visitors,
especially women and couples.

~~~
tathougies
> especially women and couples.

You're making this seem misogynistic, but indeed, typically female monasteries
were not (and are still not) open to men.

You're not wrong I was incomplete in my previous statement. Monasteries would
often try to render assistance to the exceptionally needy, but have
historically operated as regular inns only for those who could stay within the
convent walls. This was basically restricted by sex. Even today, if you're
going to do a retreat at a monastery, couples typically would have to stay
away from the cloister (many monasteries - but not all - offering retreats
typically have a separate house for these individuals, a short distance from
the main cloister). Only single men would be permitted into a male monastery
(behind the cloister for the night) and single women to a female one.

Re the paying stuff. As far as I'm aware (and I've researched a few
monasteries in my area and know several monks), the payment is a suggested
donation, not a requirement. Of course, that's my own anecdata. I would be
interested in knowing if there is a monastery charging for the actual stay,
because typically they're not supposed to.

------
recursinging
The village I live in has a "Kloster", with nuns making up about 15% of our
population. The article is accurate in that the number of practicing nuns is
sinking and certainly not sustainable.

Here they have diversified in a number of directions. There is a school, an
old folks home, and a hotel. The picturesque location, combined with the
historic buildings makes all these quite competitive, and successful. I'd go
so far as to say the church here is thriving despite the declining popularity
of dedicating your life to it.

~~~
pluma
Keep in mind that in Germany these "church operated" services are heavily
subsidised by the German state via regular taxes (not the "church tax"
registered church members pay directly to their church via the tax office). In
some cases this can be as much as 100% of the operating costs and salaries
(although the business is operated in accordance with church labor laws rather
than secular laws, allowing e.g. certain forms of discrimination and removing
certain protections).

Maintaining churches, monasteries and church operated services is almost never
about finances.

~~~
wsy
This description is a bit misleading:

\- School: Germany mostly has public schools. If you have operated a private
school for a few years, you can apply for subsidy. You will receive roughly
the amount per pupil that would otherwise be needed to fund the pupil's place
at a public school. So this is more or less a zero-sum game for the state. All
schools have to obey public school regulations (e.g., on curriculum and exams)
regardless who operates them.

\- Elderly home: there is no direct subsidy by the state. Germany has
established a mandatory insurance ("Pflegeversicherung", nursing care
insurance). This insurance will pay for nursing care, regardless who operates
the elderly home.

\- Hotel: no subsidy by the state at all.

Summarized, there exists no special deal by the state for church operated
services, with respect to funding/subsidy.

~~~
idoubtit
From Wikidepia
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax#Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax#Germany)

About 70% of church revenues come from church tax (Kirchensteuer). This is
about €9.2 billion (in 2010).

~~~
wsy
This is correct, but also needs to be put into context. You only pay church
tax if you are member of one of the churches eligible to collect taxes via the
German state tax system. Non-Members don't pay church taxes. So there is again
no subsidy involved (except that churces save administration costs because
they can use the public tax collection system for free).

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dschuetz
Is there any possible modern approach to a traditional catholic monastery? I
think, they are dying out, because of their rigid traditions which rarely make
sense in our modern world anymore. The idea of a monastery is to dedicate
yourself completely to introspection and philosophy, and serving the monastery
with its inhabitants, no matter what religion or philosophy. Why are they
having so much trouble to keep up with changes? They just accept the changes
without adapting? Why?

~~~
incompatible
We could try science / engineering monasteries as described by Neal Stephenson
in Anathem?

~~~
cat199
this is what the 'univerity' is or was intended to be, at its base.

there is a reason universities have 'faculties' (e.g. 'faculties' of the 'body
of knowledge') and that key persons are called 'deans'

~~~
incompatible
They would be somewhat different to a modern university. In the monastery, you
don't get paid, you just get free accommodation and food (and presumably
electricity, computer and Internet access, in the tech version). The monastery
would perhaps also attempt to be self-sufficient as far as possible, by making
its own food and electricity, perhaps taking in materials for recycling.

------
hos234
As membership declines, just wondering what happens to all the cash the
Churches are sitting on, from property, to art, to chuch tax collections.
Going to be interesting to see what the next (younger) gen of church leaders
do with it...maybe they need an innovation center to modernize the useful
aspects of religion.

~~~
skissane
But will the membership decline continue in the long-run?

Within the Catholic church, there is a traditionalist/conservative minority,
who are growing basically through having a high birth rate – rejecting
contraception and pre-marital sex, they tend to marry young and have lots of
kids. Not all of those kids will follow in their parents' footsteps, but the
majority of them probably will. Though these conservatives/traditionalists are
a minority now, as the decades pass by their numbers will grow and grow, and
may eventually grow to the point of no longer being a minority within
Catholicism[1], but instead becoming the new majority. At that point, the
decline may rebound into a new period of growth.

[1] a minority in wealthy countries like Germany. Leaving Catholicism in
places like Africa out of the discussion, because the situation there is very
different

~~~
avar
Europe has entire countries where pretty much 100% of the population were
extremist Catholic zealots with huge families by modern standards just a
couple of hundred years ago.

Today those countries have some of the lowest birth rates in Europe, e.g.
Spain and Italy[1] pretty much trail the pack. The data suggests that your
hypothesis is false.

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_U...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_Union)

~~~
skissane
I'm not sure the idea that "100% of the population were extremist Catholic
zealots" is really true. Rodney Stark [1] argues that people overestimate the
religiosity in past decades and centuries. The genuinely devout have never
been the majority. The difference is, that even if the average person back
then wasn't hugely interested in religion, there was strong social pressure to
give the appearance of caring about it. Nowadays, that social pressure is
gone, in many countries, and people who are disinterested in religion are free
to be honest about their disinterest.

And should big families in Catholic-majority countries 100-200 years ago be
attributed to Catholicism? Well, other countries, with completely different
religious beliefs (e.g. Muslim-majority countries, India, China) also had big
families. Most people back then, whatever their religion was, had big families
due to primitive contraceptive technology, high infant mortality, economic
value of child labour, less years spent in education, lack of educational and
career opportunities for women, etc. Nowadays, there is a correlation between
religiosity and family size, but that link is historically novel; for most of
human history, the devout and the non-devout had big families alike.

[1]
[https://www.jstor.org/stable/3711936](https://www.jstor.org/stable/3711936)

~~~
danans
> Most people back then, whatever their religion was, had big families due to
> primitive contraceptive technology, high infant mortality, economic value of
> child labour, less years spent in education, lack of educational and career
> opportunities for women, etc.

It's interesting that religion has remained relevant for many whose lives
today match what you describe. This isn't to blame religion for those
problems, but it doubtless plays a role as both cause and effect, especially
when the state is unable or unwilling to provide an adequate level of life
security for the populace.

------
keiferski
I would love to see old monasteries turned into various kinds of retreats. The
idea of spending a week or a month with no electronics, all my meals prepared,
and quiet time to just read, study and think sounds fantastic.

~~~
dagw
Don't retreats like that already exist. Why does it have to be an old
monastery. And anyway I thought the whole point of a monastery was that
everybody helped out with the cooking, gardening, chores etc. not that you had
servants waiting on you.

------
xxxpupugo
> Religious orders in Germany are disappearing because so few people want to
> dedicate their entire lives to God anymore

Is there anything weird about this? Entire life is a pretty hefty price to
pay, what needs to be changed is religion itself, if it wants to find more new
believers to keep itself from disappearing.

~~~
bakuninsbart
I honestly think the acceptance of homosexuality in the mainstream is having a
huge influence. A hundred years ago when society would tell you that what you
want to do is wrong - and you might even believe it yourself - then choosing a
life as a priest or monk was a serious alternative. - You would have a way to
paradise and nobody would question you not marrying.

It is of course complete conjecture, although more and more info is coming out
on the "homosexual lobby" in the Vatican.

~~~
usrusr
Absolutely. And I consider it a general principle, not limited to
homosexuality at all: in preindividualistic times (pretty much coincides with
preindustrial), if you were in any way unfit for the path laid out for you by
birth, the monastery might be an option. Simple rules and low expectations
(industrial armies often fill a similar role during peacetime). Getting into
good terms with your imaginary friend would be mostly a rationalisation/excuse
for bailing out.

------
k__
The just have to stell themselves better.

Living in a monasteries is strongly coupled with a long and healthy life.

Most nuns look at least 10 years younger than they are.

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Krasnol
30 years might be enough to become a popular retreat from technology. They
just need proper online marketing.

~~~
wolfgke
> 30 years might be enough to become a popular retreat from technology. They
> just need proper online marketing.

Was the contradiction between these two sentences an actually intended
stylistic device ("retreat from technology" vs. "proper online marketing")?

~~~
homonculus1
The stylistic device in question is known commonly as a "joke".

------
theqult
Thanks God ! /s

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_pmf_
Mosques are thriving.

~~~
neuronic
And this is bad how?

I live in a German population center with many many mosques and it affects me
in exactly zero ways. I know _no one_ who regularly visits a mosque, let alone
trying to convince others to join.

We have religious freedom in our constitution. Aside from some stupidly minor
exceptions, Germans aren't somehow converting to Islam. They are leaving
religion _in general_.

~~~
_pmf_
Do you know how little boys, from age 3, are disciplined even in moderate
mosques (specifically, Palestinian) in Germany? That was enough reason for me.

Glad you are not affected.

------
interactivecode
I guess it's difficult to manage church finances when it doesn't control
government(s) anymore.

------
fit2rule
All over the Netherlands and Germany, and Austria, old churches are being
converted into homeless shelters and co-working spaces .. and clubs.

I think this should be applied to the cloisters, too. I look at some of these
800 year old buildings and marvel at what they could provide, in terms of
startup-hub scene.

