
Indian technology talent is flocking to Canada - RachelF
https://www.economist.com/business/2018/12/22/indian-technology-talent-is-flocking-to-canada
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jbarham
This article reminds me why I cancelled my Economist subscription years ago.
But gotta love the obligatory shout out to Richard Florida that pops up
whenever the media covers the tech sector in Canada!

Question: If there will supposedly be 200,000 tech vacancies in Canada by
2020, why are tech salaries in Canada so low compared to the US?

Another question: If the Canadian government is serious about developing the
high tech sector, why doesn't it reform the absurdly overpriced telecoms
oligopoly? See e.g. [https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/low-cost-data-
crtc-1.494942...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/low-cost-data-
crtc-1.4949421) that reports on the imminent introduction of $30/month for 1
GB of wireless data as "low-cost" with a straight face. That's literally 10X
what I pay here in Australia ([https://www.optus.com.au/shop/broadband/mobile-
broadband/dat...](https://www.optus.com.au/shop/broadband/mobile-
broadband/data-sim-card)) never mind what it costs in Europe!

I think the primary reason Canadian policymakers want to juice immigration to
Canada is to delay the real estate bubble from popping on their watch...

~~~
cauldron
From my understanding, jobs in Canada are scarce, at least for new immigrants,
it seems most of them can only start off of menial jobs.

Since Canada is relatively easy to immigrate to, newcomers have to stay within
the country to compete for scarce and low pay jobs, while citizens of Canada
can pursue high salaries abroad.

~~~
kankroc
This is only true for refugees, economic migrants usually have a wide range of
good jobs to choose from.

And unemployment is at its lowest point in year in Canada.

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throwaway1219
I am an Indian, living in US for the last 8 years, my I-140 was approved 7
years ago and I am at least another 10 years away from my green card. I don't
to be working on H1B for the next 10 years worrying about my immigration
status.

I want to start my own company, I thought H4EAD would work out for me to do my
startup. But for the last 2 years I could not risk move into H4EAD because the
administration keeps saying they will cancel it "soon".

I am looking to move to Canada in 2019 (scheduled my IELTS and getting
educational credentials evaluated for applying for Canadian PR). I love living
in the bay area, but unfortunately things are not working out for us.

Thanks to the economic boom, the money I saved up over these years should help
our family settle down in Canada when we move.

~~~
throwawaymjabba
Another Indian with a similar mindset (not wanting to be on the h1b leash
until I may or may not get the green card in another 10-20-30 years).

Lived in US for 6 years. Had my i140 approved a few months ago and got H1B
approved for 3 more years. Was finally in the middle of getting a promotion to
an architect role after 6-7 years working for the team. Literally threw away
all of it and came back to India 2 months ago. Haven't even started looking
for a job.

They gave me RFE for my H1B extension. I saw the RFE document and it was just
a copy paste from some template. They didn't even have my employer name
correct. And since I was in a state where they give driving license based on
h1b, I couldn't drive for 3 months because of the RFE delay.

I am finally at peace after spending the last 6 years on the h1b leash, always
living in uncertainty. There is no way I would have lasted while I wait for
the green card. On some days, I used to cry while driving to work. I used to
feel really strong emotional pain on most of the days. I haven't experienced
any of that since I came back.

I think quality of life is not just a higher salary or a clean environment or
better job opportunities. Part of my brain must have been seeing all this
uncertainty as life threatening and pushed me away. I don't know how else to
explain it. Sometimes I wonder if this is one way US is filtering out people
because they want only the most mentally strong to be part of their society.

~~~
masonic

      They gave me RFE for my H1B extension
    

Who is "they"?

~~~
throwawaymjabba
As deanmoriarty mentioned, this "request for evidence" is issued by USCIS when
we (employer) apply for a visa or an extension. In the last 1 year, RFE was
more or less certain if one is working for an Indian employer. I had never
even heard of that term before 2017.

[https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/25/h-1b-visa-rfe-trump-
admini...](https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/25/h-1b-visa-rfe-trump-
administration-india/)

------
ziont
its already happened here in Vancouver, BC.

indian tech workers make up a huge part of startups to pre-IPO companies.

having said that glassdoor reviews show them to be awful places to work-shit
pay, shit code, that turns to overtime.

I know one friend who was pretty much ousted by indian managers.

just don't expect new arrivals to respect or even be conscious of Canadian
cultures or customs.

i hope they eventually learn and integrate here however.

not so great for tech workers already in canada.

~~~
truncate
Plural of anecdote is not data, and certainly not when you are insinuating
"indian managers" in particular to be worse than others and "indians" in
particular creating toxic work environment.

~~~
sonnyblarney
No, even a singular anecdote is data.

Having worked for a 99% Indian/Pakistani company in tech myself, I can confirm
that 'it's really different'. We were treated well, but when we were not ...
it was in odd ways. And can confirm salaries were generally lower as so many
people were in visa-limbo or migration situations, the company used it to it's
advantage. It was a slide on the deck to investors. Which is maybe not so
nice, but the logic makes sense: company of largely newcomers, lead by
newcomers, uses cultural aspect of migration sensitivity to their advantage.

Also, curiously, though the notion of Indians and Pakistanis coming together
to form a successful enterprise is amazing and progressive ... a lot of the
'class based' issues were imported as well. The execs were all from elite
Indian Subcontinent families.

~~~
riskneutral
I don’t think hiring based on ethnicity is a legal investment strategy in
Canada. Even if it was written down by some idiots on a slide.

~~~
deanmoriarty
Not ethnicity, the slide would say more or less "we have a deep network of
foreigners who are thrilled to come here and work for very competitive
salaries, so our burning rate will be lower than the competition".

I've seen this happen also in Silicon Valley, I've personally participated in
conversations with startup founders quoting their ability to tap into cheap
labor under the form of "talented, naive and visa-handcuffed immigrants" a
major competitive advantage.

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devereaux
Considering the startup ecosystem in Canada, I fear much of that talent will
be wasted.

We really need to fix immigration laws to make recruiting foreign IT
professionals easier. The H1B system and the years of waiting is a disgrace.

~~~
brianwawok
H1Bs don’t work at startups. They work at BigCo doing Boring Stuff.

~~~
wenc
The H-1B is a specialty occupation visa that spans more occupations than most
people are aware.

Most people associate it with IT workers, but many accountants, research
scientists, engineers, and other professionals also hold H-1Bs. Where I work,
it is the latter categories of professionals that dominate. Many of them have
degrees from schools (e.g. MIT, CMU, etc.) much better than schools most of us
went to.

And yes, some of them work at startups. They usually start out with an OPT
after graduating and then convert to an H-1B.

IT worker and H-1B are not synonymous -- the former is a subset of the latter.
It's unfortunate that the latter is used as shorthand for the former, and the
two categories are conflated.

~~~
purple_ducks
> Many of them have degrees from schools (e.g. MIT, CMU, etc.) much better
> than schools most of us went to.

Explain to me how a degree from schools "much better than schools most of us
went to" indicates the person is more competent or intelligent than anyone
else? "better" should be subbed out for "prestigious".

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tphan
This is just an anecdotal alternative but a lot of my Australian co-workers
are eschewing all the US political turmoil and are still choosing to emigrate
to America.

~~~
ianhowson
Australians get easy access to the US through the E-3 visa.

For countries that need an H1-B, Canada's visas are much easier to obtain and
live with.

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abhinai
To be honest, if we can stop the abuse of H1B visas by Indian IT firms, the
H1B program will be in a much better shape. A separate visa category for
Indian IT firms will fix this problem.

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m0zg
Wouldn't this, as a logical consequence, lead to Canadian technology talent
"flocking" to the US due to the wage depression created by the influx of
foreign workers? I mean, it's a lot easier for a Canadian to come work here,
and they are paid easily twice as much as in Canada. And in the long run,
isn't this kind of "native" brain drain counterproductive for Canada?

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asianthrowaway
Thanks Trump?

