
SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas - subsystem
http://mashable.com/2013/03/21/sendgrid-fires-adria-richards/
======
blhack
I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with
Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired _has_ already
publicly apologized]).

It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody
had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a
developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of
performing anymore.

I would feel _really uncomfortable_ if I was in the same room as this person.
What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next?

And honestly, she can't even function as a sort of "women's tech evangelist"
anymore. Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are
_furious_ with her over how badly this portrays women.

It sucks...but this is on par with firing a dev who can't program.

~~~
ericabiz
> "Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious
> with her over how badly this portrays women."

Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not
for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly
Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that has
spewed forth online _to her_ is what takes my breath away. Comments calling
her a "cunt" and saying she should be raped (this I found on her blog,
presumably before she had a chance to delete it.)

As a woman in tech, I deal with sexism all the time. And it's usually not
blatant, "blah blah a woman's place is in the home get out of my office" type
of stuff. That's egregious and I would shut that down. It's usually less
obvious. Like the guy at a conference I went to recently (with my fiance,
Brian) who asked me my name, asked Brian his name, and then proceeded to spend
10 minutes talking to Brian and trying to figure out why he (who is a front-
end developer at a startup) was at an entrepreneurial conference.

My fiance: I'm here because of Erica. (points at me)

Guy: Oh. But I don't get it. Why are you here?

Brian: She comes here because she's a successful entrepreneur and likes to
hang out with other entrepreneurs. I'm tagging along with her.

Guy: Oh. But you're not an entrepreneur...so why are you here?

This went on like this for several minutes. Dude never said a single word to
me, and finally wandered off, confused.

Or a more recent scenario at SXSW where I was talking to a huge, well-known
tech big-wig (founder of a multi-billion-dollar tech company) who proceeded to
make a flippant, condescending remark about his wife--and then stared at me,
the only woman nearby, to gauge my reaction. Borderline sexist, but definitely
unprofessional. What do I do? Do I call him out by name? Right now it's been a
week and I'm still working out the best course of action. I'm horribly
disappointed because this is someone I looked up to and hoped to have as a
mentor.

These are just recent examples. I am hard-pressed to name a conference I've
attended where one of these "borderline" sexist issues hasn't happened. Oh,
wait, I can...the coworking conference I recently attended, where nearly 50%
of the attendees were women.

Was Adria's reaction, to _this_ as an isolated event, out of hand? Yes. But
when this happens to you every single day--and in her case, multiple times a
day!--sometimes you can't take it anymore and you just snap. I get where she's
coming from, even if I wouldn't have done the same thing in her situation.

This doesn't portray _women_ as badly as it portrays our entire tech culture
badly. It's as frustrating to me as it is to anyone else. The blatant sexism
is mostly gone, but the undertones remain. And that makes it harder than ever
to gauge what the "right" reaction is as a woman when one of these events
happens around you.

~~~
camus
You think women are having hard time in tech ? then you sure dont want to be
black like me ,with people refusing to work with "niggers" ...

~~~
knowtheory
Discrimination is not a zero-sum game.

Just because people are talking about the way women are treated doesn't mean
that people don't care about or are ignoring how black people are treated.

Your experience does not negate the offenses directed at women, nor does their
experience negate yours.

It's unacceptable to treat people like this full stop, whether you're in tech
or not.

~~~
s_baby
A) 2nd wave feminism is a zero-sum ideology. Try talking about the education
gap in public education or male rape and see how fast it turns into a victim-
hood pissing contest.

B) 2nd wave feminists see gender as the most fundamental form of
discrimination with economical and ethnocentric discrimination being
derivative and secondary. I can see why an African-American individual would
be offended by middle class white women portraying their victim-hood as equal
in severity to his.

Not that the OP is guilty of either offense but it's cliche behavior in
feminist circles.

~~~
knowtheory
Which feminist circles are these?

How many 2nd wave feminists do you know? The only ones i know of live in all
female enclaves in rural areas.

I kind of regret the knee jerk posting, because i think camus intent wasn't to
convey what i was accusing him of conveying. I think it was just a poor choice
of words.

But I do think that equal attention isn't necessarily paid to issues of
discrimination against white women vs women (or anybody) of color. But that
doesn't negate the legitimacy of the offenses that folks have to bear.

But solidarity in the face of discrimination is like one of the most important
things for actual equality. If those who believe in equality don't support
each other, then we're all really up shit creek.

~~~
s_baby
>How many 2nd wave feminists do you know? The only ones i know of live in all
female enclaves in rural areas.

I live next to a women's college and my ex-gf comes from a family of 2nd wave
feminists.

>But I do think that equal attention isn't necessarily paid to issues of
discrimination against white women vs women (or anybody) of color.

That's an understatement. Look at the aftermath of raising rape awareness in
America. Majority of the resources have gone to college campuses and middle
class white areas. Even though these are the groups of women least likely to
be the victims of abuse. Feminists have monopolized these resources to women
of their own class and ethnicity.

------
gkoberger
Whether you agree with what she did, she was their "developer evangelist", and
there is no chance she'll ever be able to effectively do that job for them
ever again.

~~~
meritt
Or any company for that matter. She's alienated herself among the developer
community at this point.

------
Joeboy
Given the way this has escalated I'm expecting it to have engulfed the entire
civilized world by the end of the week. You Americans are crazy.

~~~
mkr-hn
We didn't invent sensationalist media.

~~~
natrius
There's only five things we do better than everyone else: music, movies,
microcode, high-speed pizza delivery, and sensationalist media.

~~~
dsirijus
For the ones in the unknown, it's a quote from Snow Crash. Liberal one.

------
zshprompt
I feel that all the threats and horrible comments she received are disgusting.

I didn't find their joke offensive. But thats irrelevant. She had a right to
complain. But not by posting their picture on twitter.

Posting that picture was a really rotten thing to do. Its an act of bullying.
I can take a picture of anyone and they would have said whatever I put on the
caption. And its up to them to prove to the internet that they didn't do it.

~~~
seivan
She had a right to complain, but not like that, not with a smug attitude, the
oddity of taking a photo of two guys having a private conversation (although
she heard them, does not make it a open conversation).

Those two guys could easily be and my partner making silly phallus jokes
because we fucking like to.

You have no right to be offended. Which is why KKK and Westboro has freedom of
speech.

What she did was beyond that, it was publicly hang two guys who did not even
speak to her, or about her. For her own amusement and branding. Good riddance.
People like that are scum.

~~~
blindhippo
"Those two guys could easily be and my partner making silly phallus jokes
because we fucking like to. You have no right to be offended. Which is why KKK
and Westboro has freedom of speech."

Sure, you can make jokes about wangs as much as you want. Do so in a public
setting and yes you can and will offend people. And yes, they have a RIGHT to
be offended by it.

It's inappropriate behavior in a public setting ESPECIALLY when you're
representing your employer at a conference.

However, frankly, the resulting firing's on both sides of the table
demonstrate the immaturity of each sides employers - and that is what people
should be raging about.

~~~
seivan
Sorry I wasn't making my point across. Lets put it this way, taking a photo of
two guys (probably geo-tagged) and uploading on internet because they said
something you generally don't like.

_That is what happened_

How does she know those two guys aren't on protected identity, or have issues
with being online on social media? I don't have Facebook because I don't want
to be tagged on anything.

She had no fucking right to do so. And it's incredibly offensive. Some asshole
turns around and takes a photo of you and uploads it, even though you had
_NOTHING_ to do with that asshole.

There was no bi-directional communication between them. No argument. In fact,
there wasn't even a path of communication between them. She heard words that
triggered her and decided to act on it.

Not to mention.... it was not an insult towards her or about her. It was an
immature joke. I personally _LIKE_ immature jokes, so does my partner. I don't
say them about other people. I have a penis, and I reserve the right to make
penis jokes.

You can move to a different chair. Or you can tell him to stop for a moment.

She fucked up, not a little, but big time. She's the fucking "villian" here.

I am OK with her getting fired, but not the other guy. He seriously did
nothing wrong and got hatched for something as trivial as a fucking joke.

I can't post this enough: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gciegyiLYtY>

You have no fucking right to upload a photo of two people that LITERALLY did
nothing to you.

~~~
blindhippo
I agree with you that her actions were a bit on the obscene side.

However, you are failing to see the import here.

"because they said something you generally don't like. _This is what
happened_"

No, this is not what happened. The developer said an offensive joke, as a
representative of his employer, at a conference full of his peers. He behaved
in a disrespectful and unprofessional manner and deserves all the shame heaped
on him (aside from being fired).

Dick jokes are not something that people "generally don't like". They are
inappropriate in this setting. Joke around with your buddies at the bar all
you want, but on company time and when you're in a professional setting, SHUT
UP.

~~~
seivan
I really don't agree. The jokes (I read them) are not offensive. Even Github
sells <http://shop.github.com/products/fork-you-shirt-mens-medium>

And I really dislike the Python Goons for kicking those guys out.

It would be one thing if they said something about gender or racial stuff that
actually targets people.

I can fork both genders, especially if one of them has a big dongle, so
forking as a joke, is gender-free.

But this was just fucked up. I am glad she got fired. People like that are
jaded and will be difficult to be around. I would not want to be around
someone I need to tip toe around.

Dongles für alle!

------
Irregardless
After reading her full explanation of the "incident" and the PyCon code of
conduct, I have to disagree completely with what Adria did.

Two guys were making some silly, completely non-sexist jokes between
themselves that mixed 'dongles' and 'forking' with a bit of innuendo. Despite
the fact that they weren't directed at her -- or anyone, for that matter --
she took personal offense and decided the best course of action was to
publicly shame them (picture and all).

Her reaction was far more immature than the humor that triggered it. If you're
30-something years old and still can't handle overhearing a bit of
lighthearted middle school humor, it's probably time to move into a cave and
cancel your internet service.

------
tomp
Although this would seem to be another knee-jerk, exaggerated reaction, and I
personally believe that she shouldn't have been fired (and that the first guy
shouldn't have been either), we should also consider the SendGrid CEO's
position; his company is under attack, might fail, so getting rid of the
person whom this attack is targeting seems like the obvious thing to do.

I'm guessing that SendGrid will loose some other customers now, as a result of
this last action. Suspending her would be more reasonable.

~~~
canttestthis
The DDOS attack on SendGrid's web and mail servers stopped about an hour and a
half after they announced that they were firing Richards. Also the community
backlash against Richards was huge, while there weren't many supporting her
actions. From SendGrid's point of view, this was a good business decision.

~~~
blindhippo
No, it sure as hell was not a "good business decision".

They got attacked by errant children expressing sad rage at something that
while bad, was not deserving of retaliation against the company. So the
result: the company ditches one of their employees for very dubious reasons.

Basically they caved to internet bullying and validated every sexist moron on
the internet. Well done Sendgrid. Well done.

~~~
nettdata
No.

She made a big stink about what she overheard in a private conversation
between two friends, and posted it on Twitter. Probably would not have been a
big deal except that one of them, a father of three, was fired as a result.
Not her direct doing, but seemingly a consequence of her actions.

She then was found to be a bit of a hypocrite, based on her own tweets:
<https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425> (she makes her
own dick joke)

Some more digging found that she's made some strangely bizarre comments about
racism, saying "Black people can't be racist".
<https://twitter.com/adriarichards/statuses/6039856858>

She then says that her company stands behind her, bringing them into the mix.
<https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/314452708549603328>

That was her undoing.

She made a big deal out of something that shouldn't have been, handled it in a
totally unprofessional manner, brought a bunch of unwanted attention to her
and her employer, and made her association to her employer a problem for her
employer.

She was the author of her demise, nobody else.

EDIT: Edited to better reflect the timeline, which I totally mis-tense-ified
initially.

~~~
tomp
> She then makes some strangely bizarre comments about racism

Actually, that was not "then", that was 4 years ago. Doesn't make it any less
wrong or racist, just saying that it's not connected to this scandal.

~~~
nettdata
True. My bad, and edited previous comment appropriately.

Seems that she got the attention she sought, but it quickly became a case of
"be careful what you wish for". A little bit of digging into her tweet history
brought some real gems to the forefront which didn't help her current
situation.

------
m4re
The way heads are rolling, I wonder if I'm next?

I'm the guy in green in the center of the photo (completely oblivious to this
whole situation).

~~~
wilfra
Did you notice this whole thing going on while it was happening? Did you hear
the jokes? Where these guys obnoxious etc? Or was she?

~~~
m4re
I didn't hear a thing. The keynote and/or lightning talks that were happening
during this were pretty loud, and I was paying attention to those (although it
certainly doesn't look it from this snap, heh).

~~~
jessaustin
Yeah, maybe it's because I'm hard of hearing, but I find that I _never_ hear
inside-voice comments from the audience when I'm listening to a presentation.
I actually have some pity for those whose hearing is so acute that they suffer
from such distractions.

------
Aloisius
I can't help but feel that if I, as a male, had posted the same tweet in
response to some obnoxious guys behind me making situationally inappropriate
comments and I was in her shoes as an evangelist at the time, no one would
have batted an eye.

Granted, I probably wouldn't have written a long blog post about it, but I've
certainly talked to event organizers in the past about obnoxious people before
and had them ejected.

~~~
joshdotsmith
Talking to event organizers is an order of magnitude different from what
happened here. I'd like to believe the same outcome would have happened in
this instance even if it were you.

~~~
ceol
It most certainly wouldn't have. There are legions of morons shouting about
feminists in almost every discussion about these events, even when Adria said
she doesn't identify as one.

After this whole debacle, I've given up hope for both the self-proclaimed
"hacker" community and the tech industry at large. The response to a woman
posting a photograph of two people and reporting them to convention staff
should not be "send her death and rape threats," "dig up every bad thing she's
ever done in an attempt to discredit her," and "DDoS her employer."

It's disgusting, and I'm not going to cop-out and say, "Well both sides were
at fault!" No, the side that stirred this non-story into a full-on witch hunt
resulting in her harassment and termination is the side at fault.

------
Ensorceled
One thing I'm really trying to fathom here is that people really think the
dongle joke, in this context, was sexist and not just mildly so.

Let's say a presenter put up a slide where Florida was pink and and somebody
said to their buddy, "Ok, now it really looks like a penis."

Are large numbers of us really taking the side that this joke would be
incredibly offensive, abusive and oppressive to women and should result in the
pair being ejected from the conference.

Because that _seems_ to be the stance many are taking. And I'm bewildered. To
be clear, it's juvenile. I'd personally say "Are you guys 12? Cut it out."

Can we reserve our moral outrage for the people saying "That's so gay." or
"She wants the 'D'" or "At least it's not black" in the same situation? You
know, things that are actually offensive and problematic.

------
gregd
Does it really matter _why_ she was fired? I don't understand why these two
companies, SendGrid and PlayHaven couldn't have gotten together, with these
two employees, and communicated about the entire incident and publicly come to
an amicable resolution over it.

It seems that knee jerk reactions from everyone has done little to foster
workable environments for anyone. I will say this though, it's out of control.

Firing employees on either side just screams of "we don't know how to deal
with this..." All of this has descended from a fucking private dongle joke
amongst peers.

------
danso
This post contains no more information than did the other deleted threads. The
past threads were deleted because HN mods think that the announcement is fake.
This Mashable story adds no new reporting.

~~~
anigbrowl
Yeah, a verbal confirmation seems justified under the circumstances.

~~~
militiaman21
From SendGrid's Facebook
<https://www.facebook.com/SendGrid/posts/10151502570463967>

Effective immediately, SendGrid has terminated the employment of Adria
Richards. While we generally are sensitive and confidential with respect to
employee matters, the situation has taken on a public nature. We have taken
action that we believe is in the overall best interests of SendGrid, its
employees, and our customers. As we continue to process the vast amount of
information, we will post something more comprehensive.

~~~
anigbrowl
By verbal I meant spoken, in person or over the telephone. there was some
confusion earlier about the authenticity of the FB posting.

------
gaoshan
She could have simply turned around and told them that she found what they
were saying offensive and that would have been the end of it. Instead she
choose to publicly humiliate and shame them, at the cost of one man's job, and
that was going to far. Frankly, she acted like a bully.

When I saw some other post she'd made on Twitter where she joked about telling
a guy to stuff a sock in his pants for TSA searches I really felt like she was
the bad actor here... it made her seem more than a little hypocritical.

------
zopticity
<http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c>

~~~
paranoiacblack
I don't understand what's wrong with this. This is quite literally the
definition of racism in a sociological context:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Sociological>. You're going to need to
disprove a lot of social science before you tackle this definition.

~~~
josh-j
That's all a bit silly. We have a common understanding or definition of what
racism is and it connotes something immoral. _Some_ sociologists define racism
as something else which also connotes something immoral. The common thread is
that both definitions connote immorality, and so if something falls under
either definition, it's still bad and so the whole arguing over which
definition to use is moot.

For example, if an organized group of American Asians began touting their
superiority over other races and advocated and lobbied for more Asians in
positions of power because they're superior, wouldn't you still consider their
actions to be immoral?

People can use whichever definition they like, but they need to be open about
it, and they need to realize by using another definition they're not also
redefining or constraining the connotation -- that's begging the question.

So, black people cannot be sociologically-racist-therefore-immoral against
white people, but they can be common-usage-racist-therefore-immoral against
white people.

(I should also note that labeling something with a word that connotes a
negative or positive affect isn't much of an argument for the applicability of
that connotation to that something. It's a heuristic more than it is an
argument.)

~~~
paranoiacblack
No, you're missing that racism is a systematic oppression of a certain group
or people. HN isn't the best place for speaking about social issues, so I
won't write you an essay about what's wrong about what you're saying. I'll
just say I believe you and others are conflating the terms prejudice and
racism. I'm guessing that's what you're describing by "common-usage-racis[m]."
Indeed, black people can be prejudiced against white people, and that
prejudice can be because of race. Racism, however, needs a little bit more
than that. Particularly, institutionalization.

~~~
josh-j
You're lacking an understanding of linguistics and philosophy. Both usages are
no more correct than the other, and the point of such usages is to ascribe a
connotation to a cluster of things along a continuum. Arguing over definitions
is pointless (I can create my own definition of racism and it will be equally
valid), the point is what they connote.

~~~
paranoiacblack
We'll never agree because I'm arguing about what racism is (a semantic
argument) and you're arguing about how racism is defined (a pedantic
argument). Perhaps my original post was a red herring. I was merely justifying
that what she said lines up with a known definition, not that it is the ONLY
correct definition.

Also, your definition of what racism connotes is severely lacking as well.
Simplifying racism to "something that connotes immorality" is a gross
oversimplification.

~~~
josh-j
You have it backwards. I don't care how racism is defined. I care about
whatever the word "racism" points to in the real world. But you have to
realize that a word can point to anything you want it to point to.

And not only that, but words have denotations and connotations. "Ugly", in
common usage, denotes and points to a set of subjective physical
characteristics. "Ugly" also connotes and points to a negative affect that
isn't explicit in its denotation.

I'm not simply saying that racism is "something that connotes immorality", but
that is what we're connotating when we use that word in its various
denotations (although, it's not necessarily the case). Racism's denotation can
be literally anything. I can say, for example, that it's racist to call
Canadians effusive pushovers even though "Canadian" is a nationality rather
than a race.

And people do exactly that. In the U.K., for example, it's common for people
to call people that insult the French "racist."

Language is fluid.

So, I think you can see why people are affronted when someone says "black
people cannot be racist" without putting it within a certain context. The
implication is that it's not immoral for black people to act denotatively
common-usage-racist.

------
pclark
The internet does a lot of good but times like this it can be scary – or just
plain wrong.

Once the wheels of motion are turning there is _nothing_ anyone can do, even
the way Hacker News behaved with it's mob mentality was absurd – two people
got fired, SendGrid was brought offline, some poor lady received death
threats, everyone was humiliated in some capacity, and by the looks of the
comment thread on the SendGrid facebook page, equality in tech has been
notched back a few decades.

Talk about blowing something out of proportion: some guy made a _dongle_ joke
to a friend of his at a conference. It's kind of terrifying if you think how
easily you could have been one of the characters in this. You see so many
times when some poor person has his personal details spread over the internet
based on a rumour. What do you even do when this happens?

Mountain. Mole hill.

------
onemorepassword
In events like these I'm glad I'm living under protective labor laws and not
in the US. That would have forced all parties involved to talk it out like
grown-ups instead of resorting to terminating those involved.

Now there is no kind of resolution, but two people are unemployed and two
companies are damaged. Nice going.

~~~
jakejake
This is the second post I've read recently about the US having no labor laws.
Is that what everybody outside the US thinks?

There's tons of laws and certain types of jobs are very difficult to fire
people (unionized industries and govt. jobs). And there are laws and lawsuits
for wrongful termination.

Private companies still have labor laws they have to obey. Except for certain
types of issues employees can be fired. Depending in the size of the company
things may be more or less formal.

~~~
jamesaguilar
If I had to guess, Adria at least has a pretty easily won harassment lawsuit
against SendGrid for this. She was fired for speaking out about an instance of
sexually inappropriate humor while she was acting in a professional capacity.
Um? Even if you think the _way_ she spoke out was not appropriate, you can't
fire someone for this without running some serious risks of large lawsuits.

For anyone who's curious, the texts I'm working off of are
<http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/retaliation.cfm> and
<http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/facts-retal.cfm>. It seems pretty clear that
Adria is a covered individual and that an adverse action has been taken.
SendGrid is almost certainly a covered entity. The remaining question is
whether Adria has engaged in a protected activity and if that is what she was
fired for.

The protected activity I think most closely matches what she did is,
"Complaining to anyone about alleged discrimination against oneself or
others." Now, in the case of this document, what they mean by alleged
discrimination is any harassing behavior. But, I believe it is also typically
only such behaviors by someone working at the covered entity. So the open
question in my mind is whether the law covers adverse actions for complaints
about harassment by third parties. I guess we'd have to ask a lawyer.

To the question of whether that is what she was fired for. If it isn't, it's
quite a coincidence. I think it would be hard for SendGrid to convince a judge
that she was fired for something other than her complaint.

~~~
miql
It's retaliation if Adria filed a charge against SendGrid and _then_ was
fired.

"because they filed a charge of discrimination, because they complained to
their employer or other covered entity about discrimination on the job, or
because they participated in an employment discrimination proceeding"

I don't think this holds water.

~~~
jamesaguilar
Yeah, if this is a total statement of the law's provisions, then it is
probable that this is not retaliation. However, if discrimination covers
making complaints about the discriminatory behavior or harassment of third
parties (i.e. the gentlemen she posted the picture of), then it would. I would
be interested to find out.

------
blindhippo
One thing that I haven't seen anyone here comment on: so much for company
loyalty.

Say or do something wrong and your company will not even remotely try to get
your back. You will be dumped as soon as feasibly possible.

Both companies involved here are disgusting.

~~~
fatjokes
On the upside, this means that employees don't owe their companies any loyalty
either. Fair play, and all.

------
beebs93
When the dust settles, all that will have really changed is male workers being
even more overly-sensitive to every syllable they utter when a female
colleague is within earshot.

I've personally said "Just fork her" many times at work in front of my female
co-workers without an afterthought. While I will continue to do so, if a new
female employee starts after today I may just wait for her to make a penis
joke before I feel comfortable enough to suggest copying someone's repository
to their personal one for the sake of code contribution and/or modification.

Sweet cake-frosting-Christ - this all could have been avoided with a head turn
and a "Hey, do you guys mind not speaking like that here? It's making me
uncomfortable".

------
edderly
This reminds me why I hate real names on public social networking when talking
about these types of issues.

Whatever this woman's original motive was got immediately lost in the shallow
exchanges which follow, but the commentary becomes important because it is now
personal.

I feel more contempt for the real name trolls now gloating over her firing
too. None of whom I assume were present at the original event. The internet is
full of bile, but I'm happier with anonymous bile.

~~~
subsystem
It does work fairly well as a honeypot though.

------
shawn-butler
Can you imagine how bad this is going to get when Google glass is on every
nose?

I'm usually the guy seeing opportunity in every "doomsday" prediction but, I
really see no upside for most people in being recorded all the time.

This is going to compound cyber-bullying effects by orders of magnitude.

I find the focus on her gender irrelevant. Is the story any different if it is
a man vilifying and excoriating women he overhears? No. She is/was basically
incompetent. A tech evangelist is basically a salesperson, her job is to
create goodwill. You don't report your customers as offensive even when you
think they are. And you especially NEVER bring bad will on your company brand.
You deal with it and move on.

------
zimbatm
This is bad. How many people really care about the story ? The culprits aren't
either parties but the people who helped to blow that story out of proportion
and the companies who doesn't have the guts to stand behind their employees.

We should be allowed to express ourselves and to make mistakes in the process.
More tolerance please. I don't want to live in a world where we can be
threatened by a virtual mob for 140 characters that we wrote.

------
HiroProtaganist
I wonder if you could re-create this whole debacle in 3 months with fake
people; you could use your post-mortem to tell people that you faked them out
and announce your startup PR firm.

------
peripetylabs
Keep in mind that Adria Richards was acting in an official capacity as a
representative of SendGrid at PyCon. SendGrid's business is transactional
email, and one of their public spokespersons happily outs private
conversations on social media, even distributing photographs of people without
their permission -- as a SendGrid customer who takes privacy _very_ seriously,
I found this concerning, and I have been looking at alternatives since this
fiasco.

~~~
obviouslygreen
It _is_ concerning, but it's concerning about Adria and people like her, _not_
about SendGrid. It's irresponsible to assume that, because someone has
represented a company poorly, that that is a poor company.

People mess up, and in this situation either Adria messed up or whoever hired
her did. That's not to say either party is stupid or a "bad person" or any
such thing... it's to say that Adria did something that most of us consider
clearly wrong/unprofessional, and if there was a clear indication that she'd
do such a thing, the hiring manager should not have brought her on. I'm
inclined to think there was no such indication and this is just her personally
doing something irresponsible, but then we don't know.

Immediately making that a reflection on her employer is invalid and makes
things worse than they already are.

------
sirrocco
Right now it looks like SendGrid fired her because of the DDoS they suffered a
few hours ago. Once you can blackmail a company into firing someone like this
.... I think it's dangerous for the company.

~~~
fatjokes
> Right now it looks like SendGrid fired her because of the DDoS they suffered
> a few hours ago.

Do you have evidence for this? If it were me, I'd fire her because she caused
a huge wave of negativity toward the company. I don't know what an
"evangelist" does, but I'm pretty sure this is the opposite of it.

~~~
sirrocco
I don't have evidence but the timing speaks for itself - in the middle of a
DDoS because of recent events they fire her.

I'm not saying they weren't right in doing so, but _it looks_ like they cave
to blackmail.

~~~
burntsushi
> but it looks like they cave to blackmail

I'm sorry, but there is zero reason to believe this over other plausible
explanations given in this thread.

------
pbreit
If SendGrid did not offer to let Adria resign, shame on it. If she refused,
shame on her.

Shame on her for not apologizing immediately when the firestorm broke out. I
suspect this would have preserved two jobs.

------
zshprompt
The worst part is that she will now become a spokesperson or write a book
because of this. There is a #teamadria on twitter.

So sad...

------
windexh8er
Well played SendGrid, well played. Evangelist she was not.

------
anonfunction
Let's not forget she wasn't the only one who lost her job because of this
whole debacle.

<http://blog.playhaven.com/addressing-pycon/>

------
dobbsbob
this is exactly why I dont use any social media in my real name, and I
especially dont ever reveal who I work for. the moment you stick your company
name on your twitter/fb profile you are now their spokesman and they can
legally fire you for just about anything.

media will make this a womens rights false argument and she will get a book
deal plus her 15mins.

glad my 3 contractors i hired are remote, degenerate neckbeards who dont use
anything besides degenerate filled IRC channels. media doesnt give a shit
about IRC

------
gregd
Did not expect this outcome. Live by the sword...die by the sword.

------
aheilbut
All of this absurdity is why we have a legal system, not mob rule.

~~~
knowtheory
Except that what we really have is like 50/50 legal system / mob rule.

The legal system isn't protecting Sendgrid from having the awesome day they're
enjoying right now.

~~~
aheilbut
And that's why there's the computer fraud and abuse act...

------
kunai
While misogyny has gone on for centuries and needs to be stopped, obsessing
over two (relatively) harmless jokes that aren't sexual in the _slightest_
pales in comparison to the genuine problem, which is verbal abuse and sexism,
as clearly evidenced on Richards' blog.

Sorry to say, but forking and dongles are just bad jokes. Not sexual or
inappropriate ones. If Richards wished to take action against sexism in the
technology field, she could have spoken out against it with proper evidence,
because getting fussy over harmless fun is not the way to deal with it.

I understand her predicament. Sometimes you have just had enough to deal with,
and you can't stand it. You have to release. But reason triumphs over emotion.
You can't just go completely nuts over the wrong problem. Calculate your
objective and create a plan; if you can't do that, honestly you don't deserve
to be in the software field.

------
plainOldText
I think the end result is so dumb. People from both sides got fired, a lot of
angry tweets and comments, DOS attacks, etc. I think the whole thing could
have been avoided by 1) Not making a private conversation public 2) Solving
any issues privately between the involved parties.

------
jetsnoc
I shared this on a previous thread that was removed:

Wow, just wow. Five wrongs don't make a right.

    
    
      1. Two men make crude jokes to one another at conference.
      2. Adria shames them.
      3. PlayHaven fires one of them.
      4. Internet goes berserk and threatens her.
      5. SendGrid fires Adria.
    

I bet all parties wish that either these men didn't joke around like this or
that she would have simply turned around and said "Y'know, boys, I'm trying to
watch this lightning talk can you keep it down or keep your jokes to yourself
for now?" Or, even kept her twitter posting to simply asking Pycon to take
care of it.

Sad. This is a net negative.

------
marcusfrex
I think she got the "evangelist" word wrong since the beginning. And well
deserved at the end. Congrats sendgrid.

------
rburhum
Please let's just let this topic die. I think I have seen 4 high-ranking HN
threads about this already. Probably, this comment of mine is not helping the
situation either. sigh.

------
edgesrazor
I think Playhaven owes everyone involved with this a better explanation on
exactly why this employee was fired. Were they just looking for a reason to
get rid of him in the first place, or did what happened at PyCon really
justify his termination? Let's not forget - there's a lot of Sendgrid
customers who have become collateral damage in this fiasco who have nothing to
do with any of it, and probably still have no idea what's going on.

~~~
saurik
If PlayHaven had reasons to fire someone, that is private between them and
that person: just because it affects you does not mean it suddenly that person
should have to lose their privacy. PlayHaven should not divulge any more
information than they already have on this matter: it would be up to the
person fired to authorize that and provide an explanation.

------
sanli
None of them could have got fired in Sweden. Do you think as an american that
US should have stronger protection for the employer?

~~~
craigyk
Is that true? I recently listened to a story about one of the Nordic
countries, it may have been Denmark?, and how employers can easily fire
employees. They argued that this, along with really good unemployment
benefits, actually helps the economy by making the work force more fluid.

~~~
p0ppe
Probably Denmark. They call it flexicurity.

------
noonespecial
Lets play my favorite game: _How should it have happened?_

Acceptable case: Adria turns around to the guys in question and politely lets
them know that she is not cool with middle-school humor at a professional
event. They are embarrassed, and think twice about it next time.

Best case: The _guys_ around them do this first.

What actually happend: A chain-reaction of explosive over-reactions.

------
salman89
Smart move by SendGrid. The short term windfall for having ditched her is
easier to swallow than having your brand name attached to this whole fiasco.
After the DDoS attacks I am sure they lost paying customers, and as a startup
they cannot afford to continue to take a hit like this.

------
zivir
The voluminous Internet reaction is an example of bike shedding, I think. We
don't have strong opinions on a given topic that we don't know much about, but
we all know what it's like to be ourselves in social and professional
situations, and we all have strong opinions about that.

------
djd
I don't understand why this whole issue is being looked at from a feminist
Angle. What would the reaction be if a guy has tweeted the same thing? I am
not sure if what she did was right/wrong. deciding if she is right or wrong
considering it a action of a women saddens me.

------
hawkharris
There seems to be a massive trend of people getting in hot water because of
Tweets, then going into damage control mode to provide context for their
remarks. Part of the problem is the medium itself. Arguments, especially those
that are interesting and meaningful, aren't always meant to be condensed into
140-character snippets.

Take this story, for example. While I'm not taking anyone's side, I think that
if Adria had been able to provide context for what happened (i.e. saying more
about the nature of the employee's comments and why it offended her), this
discussion would have been more meaningful from the get-go. Maybe it wouldn't
devolve so quickly into speculation.

------
imallforfair
1) Dongle, penis, vagina, balls, etc are NOT SEXIST JOKES. "Get in the kitchen
and make me a pie." is an offensive and sexist joke. 2) She was not fired for
standing up, she was fired for dragging her employer into the fight on
twitter. 3) What can you tell me about her before this incident? 4) She
sensationalized the incident in ways that Fox News couldn't even top. 5) SHE
IS AN EVANGALIST/communicator. Are you telling me she is intimidated or
doesn't know how to converse with people?

"Yesterday the future of programming was on the line..."

In the end, everyone lost here, but she did start the fire.

------
vertis
I'm late to the party, but I feel the need to put my voice on the other side
of what seems to be prevailing opinion.

She was not wrong to mention inappropriate jokes. Anyone that has done sexual
harassment training will know that ANYTHING that can be taken the wrong way in
not acceptable. Because of the nature of sexism and sexual harassment you have
to have a zero tolerance policy.

Going out with pitchforks regarding this incident is sending an absolutely
terrible message to current and future generations of women in tech.

------
SODaniel
I just hope this 'story' ends here. Both parties having learned a lesson and
walking away a little bit humbler and thoughtful.

I would absolutely HATE to see this become a drawn out legal battle comedy.
And I would hate it even more to see Adria end up playing the victim and
become some sort of 'women's advocate' showing up in some morning show couch
crying and blaming 'the male tech industry'.

Then again, no high hopes on it being over.

------
Mahn
This thing is completely ridiculous. Dear PlayHaven and SendGrid, hire both of
your ex-employees back, publically apologize, and start making sense.

------
themartorana
Statement on their website: <http://blog.sendgrid.com/sendgrid-statement/>

------
foohbarbaz
Huh? WTF?

My impression is that inappropriate jokes were specifically targeted at a
woman seated nearby. In an all male company (of 13-year old youths) it just
does not happen.

The people that did this deserved to be reminded that it was not acceptable
(although not by firing).

Now, firing Adria Richards is entirely beyond my understanding. Seriously,
WTF? Well, this whole story is sad. Blame the messenger now?

------
scotty79
It would be extremely cool if now it turned out that Adria and this guy were
actually friends who came up with a plan how to troll everyone who has stick
up their ass and/or is afraid of his/her own shadow when it comes to gender.

------
zozu
I followed the whole thing and however I am sad that this stuff still happens,
it was inevitable that she was fired. I do hope people got more aware what
social media can do now..

------
mladenkovacevic
This is a situation where somehow EVERYONE managed to over-react.

------
supergirl
as someone else said, they better call their lawyers. if adria is really the
stereotypical hyper-feminist she seems to be, she's gonna sue them soon.

------
davidrudder
We had some emails delivered yet. While the drama was fun to watch, I'm a
little annoyed with the kiddies who decided a DDOS was a good idea.

------
pagade
tragedy of overreactions?

------
jagermo
So, both companies lost valued employees. All over a penis joke - i think it
is just stupid.

------
pla3rhat3r
A joke that gets 3 people fired and blows up the internet!?! I GOTTA HEAR THIS
JOKE!!

------
ternaryoperator
One over-reaction lead to another, which lead to another.

------
slake
That is just wrong.

------
dutchbrit
PG, please don't delete this submission.

------
seivan
Github sells "fork you" shirt. <http://shop.github.com/products/fork-you-
shirt-mens-medium>

Can someone please fire whoever is responsible for that? I am offended.

------
drivebyacct2
I'm guessing it was related to her invoking her employer publicly and saying
they support her.

~~~
uncoder0
I suspect the same thing. I appears that the DDoS started after she claimed
they supported her. This could be a coincidence though.

------
andyl
"@SendGrid supports me" Goodbye Adria. Welcome to your new career as a
blogger/muckraker.

------
DannoHung
Why were the three previous HN items about this deleted?

~~~
Goronmon
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5416908>

~~~
DannoHung
Thanks.

------
niggler
I for one am glad that everyone overreacted and the situation blew up. If this
was swept under the rug or if there was an apology, this would have been a
one-off event. The fact that people are overreacting, I hope, forces the
community to have a larger discussion regarding gender issues.

