
Are you like me? Or do you have discipline? - kcurtin
http://www.kevinjcurtin.com/home/2011/9/18/are-you-like-me-or-do-you-have-discipline.html
======
aaronbrethorst
Learning Ruby on Rails is a means to an end, not an end unto itself. How do
you know when you're done? When you've finished reading through a book? When
you've launched a web app built with Rails? When a bug fix of yours is
accepted into the Rails project? When you're hired for a job on the strength
of your Rails experience?

Perhaps if you set yourself more measurable goals, it'll be easier for you to
finish. I know this is the case for me.

~~~
kcurtin
This is a great point. I think goals can be an incredibly powerful motivator
and can help with accountability - especially when shared.

I have been setting weekly goals (get through x amout of lessons and complete
x amount of excercises). Daily goals are tougher due to work and an
unpredictable schedule but so far for me it has been to do something RoR
related each day.

I need to think more about long term, but in general I want to be able to
prototype and have built a simple web app within 6 months.

------
bennyfreshness
I find keeping my eyes on the prize motivates me. I like watching interviews
of people who've been successful its inspiring. ThisWeekInStartups has plenty
of this. Keep long term benefits in mind, like having the freedom to do what
you want, whatever that is. Combine that constant enticement with a regimented
schedule and things begin coming together, at least for me they did. Plus once
the ball gets rolling its hard to stop!

~~~
kcurtin
I like the idea of a regimented schedule. You are right, as soon as I begin to
see progress and things start rolling it instantly becomes MUCH more fun.

For me, reading/watching inspiring stories helps briefly, but the initial
impact quickly wears off.

------
eykanal
I've recently also started learning RoR. For me, the best motivator is to have
_something_ in my head that I want to accomplish as soon as I finish the
"learning" phase.

For this language, I have two projects - one as a "I just learned this, and I
want to make my first app using RoR" project, and one as an actual product
that will generate income. The first project is a pretty important part of my
learning process, because I know that it's going to take a while to accomplish
as I learn all the little things that I didn't pick up in the tutorial.
However, hopefully that exercise will make the second project go smoother.

One particular problem for me is when I get to the part of the learning
process where I have to deal with things I don't do well. I know that doing
actual site layout takes me forever, as I'm a developer and not a designer, so
I always end up dragging my feet at that part. If you find yourself quitting
then, pay someone to do it for you. Seriously. Even if you're just making the
project for fun. Consider that investment as part of the learning process...
you'll be much better off having completed the whole project than if you
abandon it in the middle.

~~~
kcurtin
I really like the idea of having 2 projects to work on. Also agree about
reaching out to people so that you dont end up getting bogged down with areas
outside of the "core" of your project/learning process.

Keep us posted on your progress!

------
democracy
I jump from project to project, but I stop doing things after I solve the
problems I thought were interesting. After all uknowns become resolved knowns
and there is no more technical challenge, I quit. I know you can't build a
business without dedication of another kind that's why I work for someone
else...

------
kiba
You may benefit from reading a pyschology book on willpower and how to reach
goals.

My recommendation is this book:

[http://www.amazon.com/Succeed-How-Can-Reach-
Goals/dp/1594630...](http://www.amazon.com/Succeed-How-Can-Reach-
Goals/dp/1594630739)

It cited real world scientific research and gave practical advice on how to
set goal and to succeed at one's goal.

Disclaimer: I am only aware of such knowledge, not actually putting into
practice said knowledge. Currently, my only implementation of scientific self
improvement is spaced repetition, which simply exploit the fact that we retain
more information learned over a long period of time.

------
chegra84
1\. It takes on average 66 days for a habit to be formed.[1]

2\. The intensity need not be there to form the habit. After a habit is formed
you can increase the intensity of the activity. Start small like reading 2
pages a day and add a page every two weeks. This is probably the most
important step.

3\. Willpower is at a maximum right after waking, so whatever you are trying
to accomplish do it first thing in the morning.

4\. Stop dieting. It will burn through your willpower.

[1][http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5857845/It-
take...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5857845/It-
takes-66-days-to-form-a-habit.html)

~~~
kcurtin
Interesting article.

Making incremental increases makes sense. I can see that helping with the
issue of getting overwhelmed by details and frustration from getting ahead of
yourself.

~~~
chegra84
I wrote about it here like a year ago:
[http://chestergrant.posterous.com/consistently-
underperformi...](http://chestergrant.posterous.com/consistently-
underperforming)

------
astrofinch
Everything takes longer than expected. That's why you should choose projects
carefully--don't just jump into stuff. Here's a somewhat nerdy treatment of
these topics:
[http://lesswrong.com/lw/600/heuristics_for_deciding_what_to_...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/600/heuristics_for_deciding_what_to_work_on/)

~~~
glimcat
Not too carefully, or you'll end up not doing much.

------
chubs
Thanks for your brutal honesty.

It's difficult, but that's why its valuable. Build your character, it'll serve
you well.

Overlap your skills when learning new stuff: Eg it seems you're great at
photography, so make a simple rails photo slideshow.

Start small, and build. Don't bite off more than you can chew: Eg don't try to
learn anything more than the absolute minimum between each time you ship.

Learn to SHIP. Eg build a small site or open source project, and ship it! This
will keep you motivated.

Find your intrinsic motivation. For me, it was when i had an awful soul
sucking job and just HAD to do something to improve my lot in life.

Find friends to walk the journey with and keep each other accountable. Eg i
started a book club.

~~~
kcurtin
Some really great stuff here. Thanks for your feedback. I like the idea of
starting small - I can imagine getting ahead of myself and setting unrealistic
expectations. Also, the idea of overlapping your skills is great. It would
definitely help to see my progress in another area to remind me what I can do!

The bit about intrinsic motivation is spot on.

------
darylteo
On the topic of discipline, yesterday I tried a new way to work.

I placed a few large boxes on my regular desk, and placed all my peripherals
and monitor on an elevated plane (too cheap to get a standing table :D). Then,
turned on some good dance music.

Funnily enough, I found that by dancing (in my own awkward way) to my
favourite music I actually stayed on track with what I was working on instead
of procrastinating by visiting HN or Reddit :)

Well, bring on day 2.

(solo-ing a project for 6 months now.)

~~~
kcurtin
hahah.. wasn't expecting this. Interested to hear how this turns out.. I
think. Whatever works right?

------
liquidcool
You're right, you're not alone, I've had the same realization. These skills
aren't obtained through sprints but through marathons.

I find accountability is my biggest motivator, so if you can gain it (via
class or job) or fake it (study partner or collaborator) it will be easier to
stay on the wagon.

You might also get some ideas or methods out of this post:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2983834>

------
gavanwoolery
I jump between a few projects but my bigger problem is running out of money.
Sometimes I have enough money saved that I can quit "real" work for a while
and focus on projects, but usually I run out of money before I am anywhere
near finished with any given project. Most areas I work in are also too
obscure/risky/complex to obtain funding for.

------
winsbe01
i am very much like you :)

"learning" something, i'm finding, is very hard to do outside of a school
setting, so i've been trying to think of why that is. what i've found is this:
in school, you're given _assignments_ , little (or sometimes not-so-little)
programs to write that do something. of course, the assignments are designed
to illustrate a point, something you've learned recently. but it can serve the
same purpose in real life. think of something (doesn't have to be a novel
idea), then try to build the functionality of it. it'll be frustrating working
through finding bugs and learning how to do xyz, but you'll find that you've
_learned_ to use your tools, even if the project doesn't ultimately get
finished.

good luck with RoR!

~~~
kcurtin
I like this approach.. It seems to be what people say about learning to
program in general. There's no substitute for just diving in I guess.

------
stuffihavemade
Looking at your previous post, it might be overly ambitious for you to jump
directly into Rails. How much have you played around with Ruby by itself?

~~~
kcurtin
I don't think so. I spent around 2 weeks going through a serious of 10 or so
lessons just to get familiar with the syntax and basic elements. I'm
interested in web applications so the sooner I can begin building the basics
the better (from a motivational and practical standpoint).

There are a ton of great Rails resources out there for beginners you don't
need to know alot of Ruby to get started. I do think it will be worthwhile to
revisit Ruby outside of the context of Rails after I make some progress and if
I think it is necessary for what I am trying to do.

------
suyash
It happens to everybody, like you mention dedicated discipline makes the
things a piece of cake next time.

------
cheez
If you don't have this habit by the time you're a teenager, you're never going
to get it.

Please, do your kids a favour: have them learn an instrument to an "expert"
level by the time they're 13. Do not let them quit. If not an instrument, then
_something_ else.

If it's anything I see around me in my daily work, it's a bunch of people who
never get shit done.

~~~
geuis
I don't agree with your first statement in the slightest.

"If you don't have this habit by the time you're a teenager, you're never
going to get it."

Habits are learned patterns habituated by positive or negative feedback cycles
throughout life. Habits range from social skills (are you the social butterfly
or the quiet kid who keeps to himself), to health (exercise a lot and eat well
or lounge around watching tv and eating Doritos), to work ethics and more.

We are all, as individuals, the collection of habits that we have learned over
the years. A frequent topic here on HN is how you can go about hacking
yourself to change your habits. A popular one is to force yourself to talk to
random different strangers every day in order to 1) break the habit of being
shy, and 2) learn the skills necessary to make friends with people easily. For
many people, this is successful.

Being a teenager is only the first small part of a person's life. We continue
to grow and mature and have new experiences all throughout our life. Those are
much more important than the awkward and often painful childhoods we all
endure. Even when we're on our death beds, we still learn new things.

I myself was an introverted kid. As a teenager, I was an arrogant s.o.b that
thought I was better than most people around me. When I was 17, during that
summer I played baritone in a drum corps and had such a set of experiences
that even then I could viscerally feel the change in my outlook on life and on
others. Throughout my 20s I began to get more perspective on life and bad
habits I had growing up melted away.

Now here I am in my early thirties (31 at the time of writing this), and I can
feel my perspective on life changing again. I stopped getting angry about
things a couple years ago. Literally when everything seems to be breaking and
failing around me, I just find it funny and keep working through it. That
happened again a few weeks ago. I'm at a point now where if I am getting
depressed, I can rationally sense where my emotional state is heading and most
of the time do things to bring myself out of it early.

I'm able to recognize my bad and good habits and I'm able to make conscious
choices now to change what I want to change. Its not easy, but I'm able to do
it.

So I hope that for everyone else that I'm not unique, and that your statement
is untrue. Else its a sad life that human beings are meant to lead.

~~~
cheez
I think for the majority of human beings, it is true. For people on this site,
it may not be.

The point is really the following: * Pick a long-term thing * Finish it * Do
this a lot of times * Get good at finishing

It's a really hard thing to learn post teenage years. I had the same problem
but started fixing it in my mid-teens. I couldn't finish anything before then.
But then I started a couple of music businesses which were very interesting to
me and I learned to finish what I started.

Compared to my 10 year old daughter who can now zip through many long-term
projects with appropriate levels of planning. At her age, I remember basically
not finishing any school work. She started out the same but working on a lot
of projects, she's learned to finish what she starts.

The natural state of a human being is to be stagnant. It's very few people who
continuously try to improve themselves. Therefore, get the continuous
improvement habit as early as possible.

