
Not your Tibetan Buddhism - YeGoblynQueenne
https://aeon.co/essays/what-lies-behind-the-simplistic-image-of-the-happy-buddhist
======
zdw
This is an interesting article because it exposes how little most Westerners
know about non-Western thought and history. Most westerners can probably name
dozens of western countries that rose and fell, but are unlikely to be able to
name more than one or two of the Chinese dynasties.

To provide a parallel to western culture, the view most westerners have of
Buddhism is like if Christianity was portrayed purely as a well sanitized Joel
Osteen prosperity gospel book, ignoring the entire history of violence in the
old testament, the east/west catholic/orthodox split, upturn of the protestant
reformation, and all the other "historical nasty bits".

And with Buddhism being offered based on that pop-culture sanitized version,
no wonder people are surprised when they dig deeper (as would be the case with
any long-standing religion).

~~~
gcb0
the funny thing is that this is the way japanese people see Christianity. in
most japanese literatute and anime, cristians are always persecuted and pure
of hearth and whatnot. oh and also not a male dominated religion at all, they
even have women leading mass in some cases.

~~~
digi_owl
Speaking of Japanese, i ran into a claim some time back that the view of
Bushido that we have now is one fabricated by a Japanese writer. That
effectively transplanted European chivalry over long after the samurai had
turned into career bureaucrats, and was called out on it by his
contemporaries.

~~~
krapp
You may be referring to the Tofugu article Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit[0],
also discussed on HN two years ago[1].

I don't know why you've been downvoted - your comment brings up a good point,
that no culture exists in a vacuum. Japan was being influenced by Western
culture even during the Sakoku period when the entire country was locked down,
albeit in a very controlled way.

[0][https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/](https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/)

[1][https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11990721](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11990721)

------
tombh
Glad to see this article getting some attention. My university training is in
Religious Studies and it became clear pretty quickly that Buddhism suffers
just as much as any other religion from the pathologies of global institutions
of power.

The one that always gets me, as it's so glaringly obvious, is that Buddhism is
so audaciously and unapologetically male-dominated. It just seems embarrassing
to me that on the one hand the teachings place so much emphasis on kindness to
all living beings, yet none of the major lineages (until recently under
Western influence) have female lineage holders - therefore those that are
considered worthy enough to pass the teachings on to the next generation.

~~~
KingMob
When I became a monk in Burma, sayalays (sort of like female novitiates) in
the monastery were expected to show respect to me, even when they had been
there for 30 years, and I had only been a monk for two weeks.

A western monk friend and I discussed it a lot, and we concluded that the
rules of the sangha (the monastic community) ensured it would be roughly as
sexist as the society around it.

See, one of the rules of the vinaya (the ancient monastic code) is that monks
are forbidden to grow their own food; all food is a gift from someone. This is
an interesting rule, with both good and bad consequences.

The beneficial aspect is that it keeps the sangha tied to the lay community;
it prevents Theravadan monks from disappearing into the forest with no ties,
and is probably crucial to maintaining the existence of a religious order for
over two millennia.

The detrimental aspect is that it punishes sanghas that are too progressive
for their community. Every morning, we would walk out at 6:00 for alms. If the
townfolk were pissed at us, we'd have starved.

One of the things western buddhist communities have done better is gender-
inclusion. In fact, most of my teachers in both zen and theravada have been
women.

~~~
potatote
I grew up in Myanmar until 23 and know what you're talking about. Those
'sayalays' follow a less stricter rules/precepts than a fully-ordained monk.
That's why they are expected to pay respect to the male monks. Of course,
there is no denying that it's a male-dominant religion, but it is no worse
than Catholicism. Buddha, according to the Buddhist legends, appointed his
step-mom to be in charge of female monks and they have established their own
structure, which follows closely to the one established by male monk's
structure (but with slightly less strict rules).

As an atheist, I am not going to defend Buddhism (be it Mahayana, Theravada or
Tibetan) because they all have major flaws, and aren't very practical--in my
opinion--for the modern society. As with most religions, there are good and
bad parts in Buddhism and a lot of original teachings by Buddha have been
'tainted' by cultural reasoning (not to mention that even Buddha himself
likely got a lot of influence in his philosophy from Hinduism and other
mainstream religions in his time). Overall though, I have to say that Buddhism
at its core is fairly benign (no eliminate-those-who-don't-believe-in-our-
god's-teachings that can be found in old testament or Koran).

~~~
movedx
Interesting comment.

I consider my self an atheist too. I've done some reading on Buddhism (online
and offline, and at my local temple) to learn more about it. I found that a
secular approach to Buddhism ("Secular Buddhism"?) is what works best for me.

I don't believe in myth or fairy tales. Nor do I believe in sky Gods or the
after life. To me Buddhism, when stripped of all of this, becomes The Four
Noble Truths, The Eight Fold Path, and meditation. Or put another way: a
simple guide to understanding the mind, our attachment to worldly possessions,
life, how to do well by others, and so on.

What's your take on this?

~~~
cko
I was all in on Theravada Buddhism for a while. Until I realized I only
believed in a small subset of it - cherry-picking, if you will. Anything that
my western sensibilities don’t find appealing, like nagas and devas and stuff
I just conveniently filtered away.

Cherry picking gets a bad rap in religion as being arbitrary, but in the
Kalama Sutta, which to me is an epistemological treatise, Gotama (or some
other guru, who really knows?) says:

> "So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by
> scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement
> through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This
> contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These
> qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are
> praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to
> welfare & to happiness" — then you should enter & remain in them.' Thus was
> it said. And in reference to this was it said.

Cherry-picking.

~~~
potatote
This! The Kalama Sutta was broadcast on national TV every night (around 8-9pm)
when the military junta was in power. It is their way of saying, "Don't
believe in what you heard about our evil doings from outsiders--such as the
western propaganda". So almost everyone in the country is aware of that.
Ironically speaking, that Sutta really became my go-to philosophy for life.
Never believing everything taught by anyone/any being UNTIL it fits my
experience/goals. That Sutta, if it was really said by Buddha, is one of the
most powerful and most empowering statement he made of all his teachings (in
my humble opinion).

------
zenbai
The way this article talks of Tibetan Buddhism without comparing it or
contrasting the teachings in it to the Theravada school of Buddhism practiced
in Thailand and Myanmar is very disappointing. It is painting another wrong
image of Buddhism as a whole.

It is almost like if someone never knew what Christianity was about and after
learning about a sect (church) with strange practices proceeds to write an
article talking about it using the name of the church interchangeably with
Christianity as a whole- to a group that knows nothing about Christianity.

This is especially disappointing because the Theravada school is the school
that emphasizes philosophy more than rituals (other than meditating) and is
thus actually closer to the Western idea - even though it is not exactly the
same, because again Westerners including the author of this article mostly
know nothing about Buddhism.

The result is this articlle paints a picture that Buddhism as a whole isn't
really worth learning about.

Yes the author says he is talking about 'Tibetan Buddhism' but he doesn't
inform the reader of other schools of Buddhism that may be more interesting to
learn about and that don't have an emphasis on tantric rituals and mysticism
that he is complaining about.

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spicymaki
“Buddhist-based mindfulness practices are used to teach dissatisfied cogs in
corporate systems to suck it up”

Mindfulness practice like everything else is much more complicated. It is more
than a management tool for complacency. There are times when you have to
really just have to suck it up and times when you don’t. The overall goal is
to stop torturing yourself about things you cannot control even if you are
trapped with no options. The more you peer through delusion the less you need
to suck it up. You might even start to see new possibilities where none were
apparent.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
There is a big difference between an individual using it as a tool to cope
with the difficulties of corporate life and a business using it to try and
improve their bottom line.

~~~
Erlich_Bachman
How do you differentiate between a business using it to "improve their bottom
line" vs a business that is trying to provide their employees with some
increased life quality? Is everything a business does evil just because they
are a business?

~~~
tonyedgecombe
_Is everything a business does evil just because they are a business?_

If a business really wanted to deal with the excess stress in their
organisation then they would start with the causes rather than trying to treat
the symptoms.

~~~
Erlich_Bachman
As someone who has done extensive mindfulness training and recommends it to
others, I would actually argue that lack of mindfulness, of other emotional
and psychological skills is the source of the problem many times. If you look
at foxconn or some other slave-ish companies in China then yes, perhaps
conditions are really harsh. But for most western companies it is not the
case. People are not stressed because the life is somehow very complicated -
they are stressed because in our culture they are not given proper tools in
the childhood: very few families have this in their ethos, and public
education is completely lacking in this regard.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
I don't think so, that sounds like blaming the victim, it's more to do with
long work hours, office politics, poor workstation ergonomics, open plan
offices, dysfunctional management, long commutes, etc.

------
Zyst
This article is, from what I can tell, genuinely well informed.

Throughout the last few years I've read around 8 books on Buddhism, Meditation
as a practice, and Zen Buddhism. And some of the differences that popped up
were bizarre to me. Incredibly so in the Tibetan side of the literature. Even
more so because I started with a very westernized view: The Zen Programmer.

It took me over a year of some non-focused research to get a general idea of
what was going on, and I feel this article actually summarizes, and ties it
together pretty well. It is fairly simplistic of course, but you can't go too
in depth in a handful of pages.

I do feel they explained the situation more eloquently than I would have.

------
est
In Chinese internet pop culture, Tibetan Buddhism == 密宗 == having sex with
your master.

~~~
volgo
Wouldn't be surprised if it's scandal filled like the Catholic church. When
you combine mysticism and people in position of absolute spiritual leadership
and people who willingly believe it, you get some interesting relationships...

~~~
tombh
It very much is scandal-filled. Just take the recent coming to light of Sogyal
Rinpoche's abuses of power: [https://www.lionsroar.com/letter-to-sogyal-
rinpoche-from-cur...](https://www.lionsroar.com/letter-to-sogyal-rinpoche-
from-current-and-ex-rigpa-members-details-abuse-allegations/)

Not to mention the extraordinary mess that was Chögyam Trungpa.

~~~
thanatropism
I enjoyed reading Lions' Roar until Trump won the election.

------
dvfjsdhgfv
I fail to see the conclusion of the article. Yes, Buddhism is much more than
most people think. Yes, it's much different than most people think.
Nevertheless, if someone gets interested in it, they should do some background
research - and very often do. After that, when you deepen your knowledge, you
naturally learn much more about the history and culture. In the case of
Tibetan Buddhism, it's also a bloody and unpleasant story, with all kinds of
degeneration, also of religious nature. It would be naive to expect that one
religion would be magically devoid of these.

For example, the famous yogi Drukpa Kunley sings about nuns who have sex, and
then, ashamed, bury their newborn so that the walls of the monastery are
filled with their corpses. Similar things were happening everywhere.
Nevertheless, this has nothing to do with the essence of the religion, which
in the case of Tibetan Buddhism is Dzogchen and Mahamudra, and which can be
practiced without any monasteries, complex rituals, and other elements of
Tibetan culture.

------
flyingcircus3
Anyone who lives near mountains long enough understands cabin fever. Is it any
wonder the humans that live in the Himalayas experience cabin fever to a
greater extent?

Stoicism, or Buddhism, in my view, is simply the most efficient ideology for
surviving in dangerous environments.

~~~
qntty
Can you explain what you mean by cabin fever? Is it just boredom with being
inside? And if so, how does it relate to being near the mountains?

~~~
flyingcircus3
Just watch The Shining. All work and no play made Jack a dull boy. All play
and no work is just as bad.

Cabin fever is extreme introversion, to the point that you have cut off social
contact with most people for an extended period of time. You effectively
create an echo chamber of one.

I have found it to be prevalent in areas of rugged natural beauty, such as
mountainous regions. As an introvert, one can fill all of their free time
exploring this paradise forever.

But as you get better at seeking out more rugged and wild adventures, it
almost serves as a positive feedback loop for your introversion. Thus, when
you are in a stressful situation, the escape hatch is to get out in nature
away from all those pesky humans.

The "logical" conclusion is that you should just buy a cabin in the woods.
Then you don't have to deal with any people, and your already in your comfort
zone 24/7.

The downside of all of that is you eventually become singularly focused on
whatever your echo chamber has reinforced. And when you live among mountains,
without focussing on all of the immediate danger that constantly surrounds
you, that danger has extreme consequences.

------
justicezyx
Good to see such articles from western writers, as the same content from
anyone with a Chinese heritage would be easily labeled government sponsored
propaganda (most of it is, but that's not the reason to dispute their
validity).

------
TACIXAT
This is very similar to what happens to Daoism. You have this rich esoteric
tradition, a monastic and religious tradition, and people in the west labeling
it a philosophy. Since I practice esoteric Daoist meditation I'm interested in
other traditions. I've heard cool things about Tibetan Buddhist practices, but
as the article said, it's really difficult to find the esoteric stuff in
English.

------
Jeaye
Hitchens has a section on Buddhism in God is Not Great[1] wherein he discusses
some violent atrocities in which Eastern Buddhism has taken part (Japanese
Buddhism during WWII, for example), as well as the malevolent sex acts forced
upon female practitioners.

Worth a read.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Is_Not_Great](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Is_Not_Great)

------
amriksohata
I've always wondered why abrahmaic religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism)
never question why they came after Eastern religions (Buddhism, Sikhism,
Hinduism, Jainism)

~~~
mythrwy
Buddhism is more recent than Judaism though and Sikhism is a lot more recent
than Judaism, Christianity or Islam.

Other than that, probably for the same reason Hindus don't question why
Hinduism came after tribal shaman religions.

Because in the believers mind maybe age doesn't matter and if it does, it's
simply that people were foolish before religion X appeared.

------
fsiefken
also see the chapter on the dalai lama in 'stripping the gurus' by geoffrey d.
falk for that other side of buddhism
[http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/dalai.htm...](http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/dalai.html)

------
jackstraw14
Buddhism originated from a man sitting very still under a tree for a while.

The core issue I think this article ignores, is a Western buddhist's need to
identify their spiritual life with a specific geographic region across the
globe. The goal of Buddhism is not to create an alliance to eventually rule
the world and compete with evil Western forces, but to develop a way of life
through personal enlightenment that allows a better world to emerge.

These constructs in between us and enlightement only have life because of the
energy we give to them. When the Dalai Lama talks about ways of finding
personal peace, that's because it's the key point that you need before you can
even know if your calling is to put your energy toward saving the Tibetan
Buddhists.

~~~
est
> Buddhism originated from a man sitting very still under a tree for a while.

Buddhism originated from a wealthy prince, who enjoyed every aspect of upper-
most human life, began to ponder why there miseries exists among humans.

~~~
hliyan
And then he spent the next decade studying with every philosopher he could
find, from theists, atheists, agnostics to materialists and then finally
decided to figure things out on his own. Only during the last period before
his enlightenment did he sit under a tree. His meditations would not have
borne fruit without all the experiences that preceded it. Source: raised as a
Buddhist.

~~~
gerbilly
I second this.

And let's not forget he pursued ascetic practices for six years and nearly
starved to death[1], _then_ he sat under a tree with a very particular goal in
mind.

[1] He would later characterise these practices as a false path.

------
Noos
I hate how westerners view Religion. "Oh, Buddhism is a thing of peace an
enlightenment, as opposed to Christianity, which a vicious God condemns people
to hell." Never mind the fact that Buddhism has multiple hells whether its
Chinese or Japanese (possibly in the hundreds where the tortures to people are
all described in glowing detail.) We're talking about the faith that gave us
Sokishinbutsu, self-mummification while alive.

Most folk Taoist and Buddhist beliefs would probably horrify people who tend
to think New Age bowdlerization of eastern faiths is what really goes on.

~~~
eeZah7Ux
The "facebook motivational quote" approach to spirituality is naive and
romanticized as many other topics.

You are vastly generalizing "how westerners view Religion" while, at the same
time, cherry-picking and oversimplifying facts about Buddhism.

