
Taken - zt
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/08/12/130812fa_fact_stillman?currentPage=all
======
mratzloff
Interesting article. Here's the conclusion, from Wikipedia:

"In late 2012, the ACLU announced a settlement in the case, under which police
must now observe rigorous rules during traffic stops in Tenaha and Shelby
County: traffic stops will be videotaped, and the officer must give reason for
the stop and for suspicion of criminal activity. Drivers are to be advised
that they can refuse a search, and dogs will no longer be used in conducting
traffic stops. Property determined to have been taken improperly must be
returned within 30 business days. Also, asset forfeiture revenue from traffic
stops must be donated to non-profit organizations, or used to pay for the
officer training required by the settlement."

For once, the good guys won, although (like usual) no one was charged
criminally in connection with it.

~~~
ceol
Everyone should donate to the ACLU, but try to give them a PO Box or
something; their donation calls have crossed the line into "frustratingly
annoying" more than once.

~~~
jeremybencken
And Institute for Justice. They fight more of these on a pro bono basis than
the ACLU does. [http://www.ij.org/executive-
summary-2](http://www.ij.org/executive-summary-2)

~~~
temp453463343
Hey thanks for sharing that. Glad to see there is some diversity when it comes
to civil liberties advocates. (not that there is anything wrong with the ACLU
as far as I can tell)

"Our four pillars of litigation are private property, economic liberty, free
speech and school choice." \- their website

What's the deal with school choice? Seems kinda random

One thing I wish advocacy groups allowed is donating towards narrower goals.
For instance I support most of what the ACLU does, but I don't really care for
their views on gay marriage and don't particularly want to fund that part. It
would be great if I could donate to more specific parts of the organization
(same goes for public radio, haha)

~~~
Amadou
> What's the deal with school choice? Seems kinda random

There is a religious subset of the libertarian crowd that is all about those
four issues. School choice means religious and/or home schooling (which tends
to also be religion centered).

Their intersection with the civil liberties crowd is pretty small - they
dislike acknowledging that there are systemic problems beyond their main
issues. For example they don't believe in anti-discrimination laws because
they say the market place (private property and economic liberty) will sort it
all out - despite all historical evidence to the contrary.

For me, seeing that list would make me wary. My impression of such groups is
that there are indeed some people who truly believe that but there are plenty
for which it is simply cover for bigotry.

The enemy of my enemy isn't necessarily my friend.

~~~
danielweber
_home schooling (which tends to also be religion centered)._

Please look up home school resources in your area.

I can pretty much guarantee that you have at least two: one that is explicitly
religious, one that is explicitly secular.

Lots of people have gotten fed up with their public schools for secular
reasons.

------
john_b
> _" Were there any drugs in the car? When Henderson and Boatright said no,
> the officer asked if he and his partner could search the car.

The officers found the couple’s cash and a marbled-glass pipe that Boatright
said was a gift for her sister-in-law, and escorted them across town to the
police station."_

The article doesn't say it outright, but does imply that they consented to the
police search. Never, ever, under any circumstances whatsoever, should you do
this. Even if you "have nothing to hide." These two thought they had nothing
to hide too. But what you think doesn't matter when the officer's opinion on
what is "suspicious" is all that matters. There is nothing whatsoever for you
to gain from agreeing to a search of your property.

Don't give them probable cause and make them get a warrant. If you agree to a
search you might as well hand your rights over at the same time. Depending on
the officer(s) to exercise sound judgment and restraint when they have little
to no incentive to do so is simply foolish.

~~~
lukifer
How to decline a search without getting hostile or "looking suspicious" (pick
one, or invent your own):

\- "I'd really prefer not to, if that's okay. It just makes me uncomfortable,
it's nothing personal."

\- "I have a cousin who's a lawyer, and he said I should never let myself get
searched or questioned without a lawyer. I feel like I should take his advice.
I'm sure you understand."

\- "I watched a video on the internet saying it's a bad idea to consent to a
search, even for innocent people, and it made a pretty convincing case. Sorry
to be so difficult, I know you're just doing your job."

Above all, stay calm, friendly, and respectful, all while standing firm.

~~~
steveklabnik

      > "Liscense and registration and step out of the car"
      > "Are you carryin' a weapon on you I know a lot of you are"
      > I ain't steppin out of shit all my papers legit
      > "Well, do you mind if I look round the car a little bit?"
      > Well my glove compartment is locked so are the trunk in the back
      > And I know my rights so you gon' need a warrant for that."
      > "We'll see how smart you are when the K9's come."

~~~
ubernostrum
[http://slu.edu/Documents/law/Law%20Journal/Archives/LJ56-2_M...](http://slu.edu/Documents/law/Law%20Journal/Archives/LJ56-2_Mason_Article.pdf)

~~~
HNaTTY
I was surprised to read that arresting someone and impounding the car (and
checking it with a drug dog during inventory) is legal for any traffic
offense, including speeding by 1 MPH.

------
eldude
The sad thing is that people on both sides of the political spectrum complain
only about the other side, failing to realize that their own side is equally
responsible. I see a lot of people declaring, "This is not the country it used
to be," but it's in regards to __both __PRISM, civil forfeiture, and the
Patriot Act; and Obamacare, FHA Loans, and Welfare.

The true problem though is government, both altogether and the increase in the
__Federal __government at the expense of __local __or __State __governments.
Both the Democratic and Republican parties stand only to lose power by
embracing either libertarian or state values. Consequently, a party that
weakens itself with its own values, will always fail against a party that
strengthens itself. Additionally, when the backlash from Bush 's increase in
government became too severe on the right, Obama stepped in to increase the
size and reach of the government on the left. Until Democrats and Republicans
acknowledge this, the political system will continue to _use_ us against each
other to enrich themselves and rob us of our liberties.

This is __the __issue of our generation: the gross overreach of government
institutionalized by politicians pitting opposing mass ideologies against each
other while empowering themselves. Neither Democrats nor Republicans will ever
surrender their party values for fear the other will abuse the opportunity to
seize more power.

We need a pro-state or libertarian party. I suspect a pro-state party would
generate far greater support, likely because it is part of our
historical/constitutional DNA.

EDIT: Sorry for the seemingly tenuous relation to the article. The reason this
relates is that all of the justification given by local law enforcement for
violating our for Fourth and Fourteenth Amendment rights were Federal
precedents and Executive Orders. In other words when the Federal government
consistently violates federal (constitutional) laws, local governments are
emboldened to do the same. Additionally, the size and power of the federal
government itself emboldens it to violate its own (constitutional)
accountabilities to the people.

~~~
rayiner
The relation to the article isn't just tenuous, it directly contradicts the
story. The civil forfeiture examples mentioned in the story are all examples
of state and local governments abusing their powers. And historically, it's
been state and local governments that most abused peoples' rights, whether it
be their due process rights or their property rights.

~~~
fallous
Except for the part where it was the Federal government and it's "war on
drugs" that established the civil forfeiture laws.

~~~
makomk
So basically what you're saying is that it was the federal government's fault
for giving states the ability to carry out civil forfeitures, therefore we
need to transfer more power from the federal government to states.

~~~
fallous
No, "basically" I'm saying the first and am silent on the transferring of
power since in this particular case I disagree with the power regardless of
which level of government is involved in exercising it.

------
jfb
This has been an ugly and shameful aspect of the "War on Drugs" since day one.
I like that people are surprised that if you create an incentive structure, it
encourages a specific behavior. Well, no kidding -- if law enforcement funding
is dependent on civil forfeiture, civil forfeiture goes up.

You can get the good of the forfeiture (expeditious seizure) without the
perverse actions by decoupling the proceeds. More training isn't going to work
on its own.

~~~
hackinthebochs
Exactly. Wherever perverse incentives exist, exploitation will inevitably
follow. Just imagine how much better this country could be on all levels if we
eagerly stamped out these types of perverse incentives. It wouldn't even take
a huge overhaul of the government: simply don't allow people to benefit from
their own position of power. Such a simple concept, yet we keep moving in the
exact opposite direction.

Casually, it seems like this trend can be traced to our need for "efficiency",
and the proliferation of business concepts into government and public
institutions. Incentivize behavior that you want and you'll get more of it,
etc. Makes sense in business contexts, but in public services it is
detrimental.

------
noonespecial
_Owners who wish to contest often find that the cost of hiring a lawyer far
exceeds the value of their seized goods. Washington, D.C., charges up to
twenty-five hundred dollars simply for the right to challenge a police seizure
in court, which can take months or even years to resolve._

 _Trolling_ seems to have become the 21st century's biggest problem facing the
"rule of law". I suppose once law became expensive relative to the median
income, it was inevitable, but it really seems to have become the dominant
emergent behavior of today's unsavories nearly overnight.

------
mschuster91
Oh god, is this really happening? The US devolve more and more into a
totalitarian regime, from an European viewpoint.

Makes me worried for the poor (literally) people in the US. We in Germany have
at least the "Prozesskostenbeihilfe" and mandatory attorneys as soon as you're
arrested.

Compared to this, US system looks like 3rd world and it's sick to see this
happening.

~~~
david927
People never live in today, but in the afterimages from different times in the
past. Your friend from college has changed; that little town you visited near
Prague years ago is quite different now.

The America most people see in their mind is the one of decades ago; it's not
the America of today. The America of today is quite poor, with around 40%
making below the minimum wage of 1968. While there's still a lot of wealth
there, it's heavily concentrated into the hands of a few, as is typical in
second-world and third-world countries. And it's difficult to reconcile that
image with the one in our minds.

~~~
brianlweiner
Do you actually believe that 40% of America live in worst conditions than
1968?

~~~
sophacles
Do you have any evidence to the contrary. Other than TV technology improving?
I mean, aside from some consumer goods, what hasn't gone up in price out of
proportion with wages?

------
bluedino
I have no problem with this being done with legitimate drug dealers. A real
bust, where the cops are shown standing behind a table with a half of a
million in cash stacked on the table, a small arsenal of firearms, and couple
kilos of drugs on the table. They auction off the house and luxury cars and
the expensive electronics etc inside.

But taking someones car because they were driving it while buying $10 of pot?
Absolutely ridiculous. I'm sure with a lawyer you can get your car back and
charges dropped but if you don't have the money for that, it's simply not fair
to take someone's vehicle for recreational drug use.

There's no arguing that it's against the law but you don't get your vehicle
taken away for speeding or driving away in it while shoplifting or writing a
bad check.

What's the difference?

~~~
burntsushi
I honestly can't tell if you've RTFA. The main victims described in the
article were carrying no drugs. Makes it all the more shocking.

> I have no problem with this being done with legitimate drug dealers.

Yes, well, that is the point of the War on Drugs, yes? And yet........

------
jasonwatkinspdx
For people who haven't been in Texas lately, particularly south Texas... this
isn't unusual or an exaggeration. It really is that bad.

~~~
cobrausn
I dread seeing a cop on the highway when driving from Houston to Dallas and
back, and I'm a law-abiding college graduate. The drug war is not being kind
to the relationship between civilians and law enforcement here.

~~~
jasonwatkinspdx
Yup, even if you're totally innocent you can be held in jail for 3 days if a
cop decides they don't like you. Once you get before a judge, the pretext
charges are dropped and you're free to go. This happened to a friend.

At that point you can counter-sue and you would eventually win, but not
without a potentially expensive legal battle. Organizations like the ACLU can
only work so many case, so they're pretty ruthless about prioritizing the ones
likely to make a media impact.

The worst thing is you can't avoid the police in Texas if you need to drive
for work/life. There are mandatory immigration checkpoints miles away from the
border. Everyone is stopped and questioned.

It's not just Texas. I was illegally detained and had my car searched despite
refusing on the interstate in KS. But it seems to get progressively worse the
closer you get to the border with Mexico.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
>Yup, even if you're totally innocent you can be held in jail for 3 days if a
cop decides they don't like you.

Yup. Happened to an acquaintance who was in town for a charity event. He was
arrested in Fort Worth, and when we tried to post bond for him, the jailers
"couldn't find" him. Went on for 3 days. The ironic part was that the guy was
a prosecutor (from Mass.)

See also: [http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2005/12/tarrant-
county...](http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2005/12/tarrant-county-bail-
politics-keeps.html)

------
secstate
I wonder what the average citizen can do about this? I feel awful for these
folks, and wish more people could become educated about their civil rights
when faced with the legal system.

EDIT: Sounds like the ACLU (+1) already followed through with the
embarrassment that was Tenaha, Texas. But it makes you throw up a little to
hear the Wash. D.C. attorney general try to justify the importance of ill-
gotten funds to prop up corrupt police :(

~~~
ethanhunt_
> I wonder what the average citizen can do about this?

Donate to the ACLU.

~~~
cstavish
I donated to the ACLU once, and after a couple months, I was convinced that at
least half of what I donated was spent on routine mailings and phone calls to
my home. I support their work, and I understand that outreach is crucial, but
I can't be the only one who was put off by that.

Ideally, I could donate and NEVER receive any communication from them. Same
goes for the blood bank I donate to at my university. I'll give blood whenever
there is a drive on campus (very often), but I don't need to be called every
two weeks and read a script for 10 minutes.

~~~
mcguire
Oh, hell, yeah. I stopped donating to the ACLU for similar reasons. I've since
moved twice, once across several states, and I still get phone calls and
mailings.

~~~
e12e
So, there's a business opportunity to accept (anonymous) donations on behalf
of good causes? Interesting...

~~~
toomuchtodo
I just send money orders with the return address and the destination address
the same.

------
mmaunder
At DefCon 2013 on Friday the ACLU described a disturbing trend of local law
enforcement emulating the feds in their overstepping the boundaries of our
civil liberties. The ACLU and EFF are doing great work - particularly the ACLU
and I strongly recommend you become a member or give them an anonymous
donation if you'd like to help fight stories like this.

[https://www.aclu.org/donate/join-renew-
give](https://www.aclu.org/donate/join-renew-give)

PS: I'd like to see a kickstarter for dashcams that stream in real-time so
even if they're seized the record persists.

~~~
jaxbot
+1 to the Kickstarter, or any product reco. I suppose even having an audio
recorder that streams from your phone to a server would be trivial, and very
valuable.

~~~
e12e
This should be pretty easy to set up with a cheap android phone, and some
server software. Having it mounted in the vehicle means no need to worry about
battery power; the only hard part is how to deal with spotty/poor/low
bandwidth reception.

Unfortunately sat phones are still expensive for this sort of thing, although
I suppose it might be feasible to do low-frame rate black and white shots.

~~~
greedo
Streaming video, even compressed will eat up your data plan pretty quickly.

------
InclinedPlane
The apotheosis of the ridiculousness of forfeiture exists in the case "United
States vs. $124,700 in US Currency":
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U....](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U.S._Currency)

In this case a large amount of money was taken into custody by the Nebraska
State Police. It was found guilty of being the proceeds of illegal drug sales
and confiscated by the state under asset forfeiture. The human being who had
previously been in possession of this currency was neither convicted of nor
charged with any drug crime. The US Supreme Court upheld the conviction of the
defendant currency.

I wish I was making this shit up.

~~~
rosser
I don't know, I think _State of Texas vs. One Gold Crucifix_ might be a little
closer to the apotheosis of this nonsense...

It's at least _conceivable_ how $125k USD could have been involved in The
Drugs. But a _crucifix_?

------
arjn
It seems every day we hear about things in the US getting worse for the
average citizen. Is it a case that it was always like this and we're only just
finding out or are these more recent happenings ?

~~~
geuis
Things are getting worse. This is not the country I expected to grow up into.
People here grumble a lot but don't do anything about it. Most people are only
passingly aware of things like government spying, police excesses, etc. Except
when it happens to them. All I can hope is that it gets bad enough that enough
people collectively say "Enough" and things get better again. It's a long
road.

~~~
rocky1138
"If there was hope, it must lie in the Proles..."

~~~
geuis
I feel like I should know that. Where is it from?

~~~
jfb
_1984_

------
azernik
_“What stands out to me is the nature of how pervasive and dependent police
really are on civil-asset forfeiture—it’s their bread and butter—and,
therefore, how difficult it is to engage in systemic reform,” Vanita Gupta, of
the A.C.L.U., says._

What is this, some medieval state? Are the local lords so unable to fund
themselves through taxes that they extort passing travellers?

~~~
seszett
That is exactly what I was thinking. This whole thing just looks like what
used to happen in medieval times, with military forces living on the money of
commoners, local communities extorting money from travellers, laws and law
enforcement practices being different from one county to another... I don't
understand how a modern country could come back to this situation.

------
steveax
I'm surprised that nobody (not even the article) has mentioned the
militarization of police as a symbiotic factor. Surely the desire for SWAT
units (and all the fancy toys that go along with them) fuels this practice --
and in return, the practice fuels the growth of police militarization.

~~~
danso
FWIW, the OP does allude to the militarization of the police when describing
the violence used in their cash-grabs:

> _In the midst of festivities one evening in late May, 2008, forty-odd
> officers in black commando gear stormed the gallery and its rear patio,
> ordering the guests to the ground. Some in attendance thought that they were
> the victims of an armed robbery. One young woman who had fallen only to her
> knees told me that a masked figure screamed at her, “Bitch, you think you’re
> too pretty to get in the mud?” A boot from behind kicked her to the ground
> "_

While the militarization of police is a huge issue, it's one that is
orthogonal to the one the OP tackles. A system in which police can confiscate
property -- with very low risk of being called out for it -- and share a cut
of the seized goods (with the prosecutors) will quickly lead to a very bad
situation. It doesn't matter if the money goes to buying more commando gear or
towards a prosecutor's vacation home.

------
qq66
I hope that some business model survives to ensure the production of long-form
journalism like this. I fear the longer-term effects on society if journalism
like this disappears in lieu of purely user-generated content or blog posts
that earn $50 for the author.

------
kghose
This article just made me angry. Very, very angry. I'm inspired that there are
lawyers who have the patience and determination to counter the cynicism and
corruption of some police and government departments in the country.

------
pje
United States v. Approximately 64,695 Pounds of Shark Fins

~~~
squozzer
Good use of the word approximately.

------
Gravityloss
This is slightly off topic, but I find the writing style in the article odd,
though this kind of writing is common in supposedly good newspapers and
magazines with long winded stories:

"Outraged by their experience in Tenaha, Jennifer Boatright and Ron Henderson
helped to launch a class-action lawsuit challenging the abuse of a legal
doctrine known as civil-asset forfeiture. “Have you looked it up?” Boatright
asked me when I met her this spring at Houston’s H&H Saloon, where she runs
Steak Night every Monday. She was standing at a mattress-size grill outside.
“It’ll blow your mind.”"

What does the grill have to do with this? Why does every story have to have
adjective laden filler how the people's hair looks like and where the
interviewer meets them?

~~~
gyepi
Discussing the grill serves to provide a context for their meeting and to
establish character, in this case, by describing what she does. I imagine most
American readers can relate to someone who knows their way around a grill;
especially a "mattress" sized one.

It's called Litery Journalism.

As I recall, Gay Talese and Joan Didion, among others, helped to popularize
it.

------
MichaelGG
"The basic principle behind asset forfeiture is appealing."

No, no it's not. It's flawed and messed up intrinsically. The fact that even a
story covering this would say something to the effect of it's OK just
abused... sigh.

------
wisty
Later in the article, it gets even worse. And old couple had their _house_
taken, because their son had sold a small quantity of marijuana from their
porch.

------
BWStearns
IIRC it is the legislative branch of the government that is responsible for
raising funds. So when I see this defense "It’s definitely a valuable asset to
law enforcement, for purchasing equipment and getting things you normally
wouldn’t be able to get to fight crime" I get concerned. There is a very good
reason that those with the monopoly on the legitimate use of force are not
intended to self-finance.

------
mathattack
Wow - this is amazing, "Can it really be happening in the US?" corruption. Is
this also an offshoot of a no tax policy in Texas?

~~~
anigbrowl
_" Can it really be happening in the US?"_

I hate to tell you this, but as a non-American I've always had the idea that
rural cops and sheriffs are likely to be corrupt in this manner, especially
'good old boys.' I don't mean that as a slur on rural people and think there's
urban corruption too but it takes different forms there because of population
density v. isolation.

 _Is this also an offshoot of a no tax policy in Texas?_

In both Texas and DC, I think it's very much a side effect of politicians'
unwillingness to raise taxes. There's a vicious circle of ever-increasing
pension obligations, stagnant revenue, and voter apathy that allows this and
other sorts of corruption to flourish. Most people are not that interested in
politics, but they get annoyed when their taxes change (hell, I'm liberal and
I get annoyed about my taxes). It's one of the few issues that can mobilize a
majority of voters. In this political calculus, corruption has a lower cost
because although the effects are more severe, they're not as widely
distributed.

~~~
mathattack
My impression is this happens in Russia a lot. They can't afford to pay the
police, so the police find a way to prey on the weak. It's a sign that
underfunding is getting extreme.

------
clarkmoody
"...and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed
to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing
the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses..."

------
fnordfnordfnord
The article mentions Barry Washington, but I suspect that may be a mistake[1],
and that they may be referring to Barry Cooper who after years of making lots
of dodgy drug arrests and training other LE officers the same; infamously
changed sides and now sells DVDs to the public that teach how to avoid
"getting busted"

[http://www.texasobserver.org/gone-rogue/](http://www.texasobserver.org/gone-
rogue/)

[1] edit: I'm the one who is mistaken, see frogpelt below. Leaving it up
because I think it adds more to the conversation regarding the practice of
police work as it relates to drugs and property seizure.

~~~
frogpelt
From the article you linked: "Cooper says one mentor was Barry Washington, who
is named in a class-action lawsuit that’s been filed against the city of
Tenaha, Texas."

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
Rats, I should have read that more carefully! Thanks for catching it.

------
ohashi
I noticed it was published in the future (August 13, 2013). I wonder how that
happened?

------
noir_lord
They can take your property based on nothing more than probably cause.

It's a good job that American Law Enforcement has shown itself over and over
again to not abuse the powers granted to it then.

------
frankblizzard
I feel sorry for the honest and good american people that have to suffer from
this power abuse, which seems to be a very real and common threat. It must be
horrible to live in constant fear from your own government. :(

~~~
anigbrowl
Government _s_. The reason it's so hard to weed out this sort of thing is that
the business of government is so fragmented in the US due to both geographic
and historical factors. I have separate and distinct relationships with the
city I live in, the county that city is in, the state, and the federal
government, plus quasi-governmental organizations like some utilities
providers, intergovernment groups and so on.

------
mcv
If there was ever any remote chance of me visiting the US, this definitely
kills the last remains of it.

Please, please fix your country. (Because I really do want to visit. Just not
while it's this broken.)

------
speeder
I wonder that when (it is a when, not a if) several someones consider a cop a
intruder and kill it, people will start to wake up that things are getting too
far.

------
chflamplighter
America is a Business and not a country. Profit motive will always rule; good
for managing a business in most cases, bad for managing a society in all
cases.

------
smrtinsert
State rankings: [http://www.ij.org/part-ii-grading-the-
states-2](http://www.ij.org/part-ii-grading-the-states-2)

------
donaldc
Sounds like unreasonable seizure to me. The search didn't sound all that
reasonable either.

------
speakr
Anyone else noticed that the article was written next week?

~~~
thehigherlife
When the New Yorker publishes an article it always uses the date for the print
magazine.

~~~
speakr
Ah, thanks.

------
api
Combine this with the DEA / NSA data sharing and you have a recipe for the
devastating financial harassment of dissidents.

At this point the USA is not far from Putin's Russia in terms of
totalitarianism and corruption.

------
AsymetricCom
Well, we wanted privatized services, right?

------
mkramlich
completely off-topic for HN -- and yet 151 points. please somebody save this
site. it's spiralling out of control. pg, please

~~~
icebraining
_In China, toddler left for dead sparks debate about society 's moral health_
(654 days ago)

 _Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is Warning to Cities and States_ (956 days
ago)

 _More Struggling Borrowers Face Pay Garnishment_ (1221 days ago)

 _Millions of Unemployed Face Years without Jobs_ (1260 days ago)

All submitted by pg himself over the years. How is this story so different?

~~~
derefr
The latter three articles are _economics_ pieces, which tend to spark good,
scientifically-minded debates on HN.

The first article _is_ political, and I would hope that pg would think better
than to post if he was given the same decision over again. It probably felt
"less dangerous" to post it two years ago; back then, HN didn't have nearly so
many people _interested_ in discussing the political side of an issue--you
know, the people you see in this thread :)

~~~
icebraining
What about _Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from the Feds_
(4 days ago)? It's very much a political article, even if it include a
technical side. We all know what would be discussed.

------
kelvin0
Say what you will, but at least most US citizens have cheap access to quality
medical services. You can also buy as many guns as you like or sell them to
known criminals, how sweet is that?

~~~
geuis
Cheap access? Are you insane? Health insurance is incredibly expensive. Even
with it, medical costs are through the roof. My ex girlfriend was pregnant
with our kid 7-8 years ago and she miscarried. After the hospital procedures
and one night stay, the bill was over $32k dollars. Great, we lost our kid and
are now more in debt than what we both spent on college. Not a fun time in
life.

~~~
ultimatedelman
easy there, he's clearly being sarcastic.

~~~
kelvin0
Indeed

