
Student Debt Dodgers: Americans Who Moved to Europe - kushti
http://www.vice.com/read/talking-to-american-debt-dodgers-who-moved-to-europe-to-avoid-paying-off-their-student-loans-111
======
kin
I'm not pro-student debt, but all of the stories in this article are super
irresponsible to me. All of my friends and I graduated at the worst time
possible, shortly after the 2008 crash. It was a terrible time to enter the
job market (unless you were a developer, but still, salaries were low and I
worked hard to earn what I do now which apparently is now just considered
market-rate).

Anyway, all the english majors and political science majors etc struggled to
find jobs, but they found shitty jobs nonetheless. They chipped away at their
loans, changed it to lower payments, or just paid interest for a while. Where
are they now 5 years later? Their loans are mostly paid off and they're in
better jobs.

My point is, yes our education system is backwards, but millennials need to
learn some form of hardship or hard work. The stories where their parents have
to deal with phone calls are especially bad.

~~~
unclesaamm
> "Their loans are mostly paid off"

I'm not sure what bubble you're living in, but some of my tech colleagues
(making six figures) have enough student debt that they'll be paying it back
for the rest of their working lives.

For less well-off people, a single misstep (or illness) can throw them into
insolvency. This is an insane price for individuals to shoulder just to get on
a level playing field (aka getting an education).

~~~
tropo
They are "making six figures", yet "they'll be paying it back for the rest of
their working lives"? How did they end up with over $2 million for debt? (half
of $100,000 times 40 years is $2 million)

Suppose they took about 7 years to get both BS and MS degrees. (the PhD is
normally "free") This would amount to about $300,000 per year. That is
overpaying for school by a factor of 6 to 100, depending on the school.

~~~
iskander
$100k - taxes = ~$65k.

Now subtract rent, which in most tech hubs is at least $1500 / month. Now
you're left with ~$47k. After the cost of food, transport, and a little travel
let's say you still have ~$35k. So each year of working pays for one semester
of NYU. Not "the rest of their working lives" but even a generous salary takes
a while to chip away at the loans students are currently taking out.

~~~
tropo
Living within your means could involve Texas.

No, I don't mean Austin. I mean real Texas. Actually, it seems the better deal
is Florida. (for example, Palm Bay is an easy commute to companies like
Harris) You can eat non-organic food, including beans and rice. Do not travel.
Carpool with your spouse. Do not buy furniture.

Consider the tax advantage of buying a home and having kids. Your taxes
plunge. You can end up paying nothing, even with a 6-figure salary. Kids and
houses are way more affordable than you might think.

~~~
x0x0
Sure, you can live in rural tx, but good luck getting a job that pays $100k
there. Remote employees can do it, but you're almost certainly not going to
get that straight out of university. And this is the first time I've seen
someone claim kids net save money =P . That would be, ah, different from the
experiences of everyone I know.

Also, your calculations ignored interest. Even 5-8% interest on private
student loans adds up in a hurry.

------
edko
As a European, I am starting to think that we should build a wall, and make
the US pay for it, to prevent all of these people from coming in. It is not
their best people they send us: it's the ones that default on their loans!
Wake up Europe! Let's make Europe great again!

~~~
centizen
I have to wonder how these debt refugees are getting their requests approved.
Is German border policy lax enough that "I don't want to pay my debt" is
enough to get citizenship?

~~~
yardie
Live there 2 years, problem free, and have a decent understanding of the
German language and citizenship is almost guaranteed. Also helps to be from
the right countries (US, Can, Aus, NZ, Western Europe).

~~~
unprepare
Can you just live there for 2 years with no prior authorization?

Dont you need an extended work visa in order to work for that long?

~~~
yardie
No. You need an immigrant visa. These aren't impossible to get just most
Americans don't want to do the research or jump through the hoops to do it.

Just like the US, most of Europe does not want new immigrants to be a drain on
their social services. If you can find a job before you apply or have a very
large bank account it's almost a give they'll give you a visa. A popular
option is to get your TOEFL certificate and become an english teacher. Others
are get a student visa or marry a EU citizen.

------
joesmo
I agree with the student who says it's an act of civil disobedience. Many of
these companies should not exist after fucking up our economy, yet it's the
students who have to pay them back? That bailout money could have gone to
education, yet it went to prop up these criminal entities. And the federal
government? Like they give a fuck about anything but money. Please. If they
cared about the actual people living in this country, education would be free.
Nothing is owed. Not to mention the absurd amount of taxes everyone pays for
war and other bullshit that's unnecessary. The people want education, not war,
and the government and our society has failed them. I understand there's a lot
of stupid people in this country, but there's also a lot of people who want to
actually make something of themselves and they shouldn't be held back by the
idiots.

------
wrong_variable
This is a good thing.

Its going to put downward pressure in the price of education. We really need
an international market for education.

------
jboles
The sense of selfish entitlement shown by these people is simply staggering.

~~~
at-fates-hands
I have relegated myself to thinking this is another generational shift.

I see it across the board with my nephew, his friends and the young people I
talk to everyday. At first I really felt like I was just being the "old guy"
and thought my parents probably said the same thing about me. Now, I just
accept this as the new normal for this generation.

To me, it's sad when you see kids with no sense of responsibility and have no
drive to earn anything in their life.

EDIT: Yes, I know most generations usually give off an air of irresponsibility
(baby boomers, hippies, Gen X, Gen Y) but this generation is so inwardly
focused and lacks any kind of responsibility, it's borderline alarming.

~~~
HelloMcFly
The only difference between this generation and the last is that there is more
visibility into creative opportunities you can make to benefit yourself, and a
louder platform to stand on once you've made those decisions. Thinking that
this is the generation that truly - for real this time - is just so much more
flighty and irresponsible than the others is simply narrative fallacy.

And in response to your other reply noting this is a "cultural (American)"
thing: well yes, because American student debt is not common in other
countries. I'd argue it's likely more national than cultural, as it's driven
by external context.

That's my two-cents, and they come from someone who naysays most of the non-
evidenced-based comments spouted about Millenials.

------
mywittyname
> "The federal government doesn't have really strong tools for collecting debt
> from people who move overseas,"

For now...The US government successfully pressured foreign governments into
adopting banking reforms that make it a significant burden for an American to
control a foreign bank account. So, it's safe to assume that the USG is
capable of compelling foreign banks to hand over the assets of persons in
default of their DoE loans.

Private loans are another matter, but I wouldn't be surprised if private
lenders find a way around this. International banks have deep pockets and can
probably buy up the debt of these fleers for pennies on the dollar.

------
dragontamer
The guy with $160k in student loans had his parents cosign his student loans
and then left the country. What a jackass. Leaving all of that debt for his
parents to figure out, while he ran away from it all.

~~~
Someone1234
I have to say I don't even understand how one could amas a small house worth
of student debts.

In the article it hints at $30K a year. That sounds like a LOT of money, and
then five years of education give you the $160K.

I can kind of understand medical school costing that kind of figure, but I
cannot see how an undergrad degree could cost that.

Mine was approx $8K/year or $24K over three years. Still a LOT of money, but
compared to his $30K/year, $160K total it is chump change.

~~~
douche
My alma mater has climbed up to nearly 70k/year as of this year... It's
completely nuts, but if you didn't get that chopped down by financial aid
grants and had to pay it all via loans, it wouldn't take long to get
ridiculously in hock.

Even better, it's up 20% from when I graduated, just a few years ago... Gotta
pay those six-figure salaries for assistant deans of XYZ, $25/hr cafeteria
workers and security forces to make sure adult students aren't drinking hard
alcohol somehow.

I laugh and hang up the phone when they call up and dun me for alumni
donations.

~~~
maxerickson
Is it remotely worth it to take out $50k a year in loans to go there?

~~~
douche
I would say no... It's a prestigious name to have on the piece of paper, but
I'm not sure that's worth starting out in life with a full mortgage-worth of
debt... I think I'd have had to double down and go through the
I-banking/consulting/doctor/lawyer track to try to dig out, rather than go
into something I actually kind of enjoy.

I was poor enough that the financial aid made it a better decision - something
like 3-5k more per year than going to my state university, which doesn't look
anywhere near as good on a resume.

------
charlesdm
If these are federal, government issued loans, can't those be collected via
the IRS? And can't the IRS block renewing your passport when living abroad?
Some countries have those kinds of laws. That seems like an effective way to
collect on the debt.

(Not that I'm pro student debt: I live in a country with free higher
education, and I don't think it's healthy to have to start your life with
massive amounts of debt. )

~~~
at-fates-hands
Yes they can.

Usually this is done by taking your tax refund to pay off tax debts you may
have. They can also garnish your wages to pay the debt off. There are also
professional boards that can/will revoke your professional license if
necessary.

This is a type of loan that can't be discharged through bankruptcy either.
Best plan is to contact the Dept. of Education and set up a payment plan. Even
if you're paying $20/month it will keep you off the radar of the government
looking to collect on your student loans

~~~
toomuchtodo
No, they can't. The IRS will turn over any funds due to you to the DOE, but
they won't pursue the debt itself for them (a collections agency does so), nor
will the IRS prevent you from renewing a passport over student loans.

Disclaimer: Helped a friend negotiate ~$100K in defaulted student loans down
to ~$10K while he was out of the country.

~~~
charlesdm
Smart move - better to take the $10k than never to see the $100k! That's
essentially what all these people should be doing.

~~~
toomuchtodo
This is exactly how all creditors work.

You approach it as such: "I have X for you now (with X being about 1/10 of the
total obligation). You either take that, or you get nothing."

To be able to do this, you must have X, and you must be able to negotiate from
a position of power (it has to be very difficult for them to collect).

~~~
MrMullen
How do you ensure that they will take X and wipe the loan instead of take X
and then tell you that you still owe X x 10?

~~~
toomuchtodo
Signed contract/agreement. Try to default on that and I'll have my attorney
take you to court and report you to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.
The protections afforded by the FDCPA [1] against debt collectors are
significant (although, in my opinion, do not go far enough).

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Debt_Collection_Practices...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Debt_Collection_Practices_Act)

------
thisone
It would have been more interesting to interview those of us who live in
Europe and still manage to pay our US student loans.

It's a giant pain in the ass, from lenders who have no way of taking payment
from anything but a US bank account, lenders who's systems can't handle a
foreign address, and lenders who you can only pay via PayPal.

I think my favourite was the lender who told me to wire the money to a friend
in the US and then they could pay my loan for me...

------
draw_down
When corporations move across state lines to avoid their tax burden, it's good
business. When people move to avoid a debt burden, it's deplorable.

~~~
damptowel
Laws don't apply to you if you're wealthy enough.

It gets especially fun geopolitically. You can force countries to take out new
loans to repay older ones, even when they cannot meet their interest payments,
paint them in the media as lazy, ignorant and irresponsible. Why invade a
country when you have the IMF?

------
jkot
Article is missing the main point: in Europe student loan can be legally
discharged through bankruptcy.

~~~
yardie
In "Europe" student loans are almost unheard of. Some of "Europe" will pay for
tuition and living expenses like its your full time job.

Student loans in "Europe" are treated like any other line of credit. You walk
into a bank and ask for one. If it doesn't work out you can discharge it
through bankruptcy like any other loan.

~~~
jkot
Student loan from US.

------
pklausler
Whiny deadbeats.

------
marknutter
But how will they vote for Bernie if they're living overseas?

~~~
dragonwriter
Overseas absentee voting. In done states, you don't have to have ever lived in
the US (the exact rules differ, even among those states.)

[https://www.fvap.gov/citizen-voter](https://www.fvap.gov/citizen-voter)

