
Making Millions by Distributing Pirated Movies - user5994461
https://thehftguy.com/2017/12/20/how-to-make-millions-by-distributing-pirated-movies/
======
qwerty456127
The problem with legal movies are DRM, vendor/device lock-in, forced ads,
regional policies etc.

You can just download a pirated movie as a plain MP4/MKV/AVI file in the
language you want (not necessarily the official language of your region) and
the quality you want (some people like 30+ gib HDs, many prefer 5 of less gib
per movie) and play it forever everywhere, including unsupported platforms
(namely huge number of TVs and no-name set-top-boxes with USB ports, old PCs
with exotic OSes etc). This (besides visiting cinemas, these 2 things don't
really affect each other, people often do both for the same movie) is what
almost everybody does in the eastern Europe. People don't really mind to pay
some bucks for a movie/song/book/etc. but nobody in sane mind wants the crap
I've mentioned in the first paragraph. Sell plain DRM-free standard-format
multilingual downloadable files for humble prices (under $5 per movie) and
you'll have almost all the audience pirate sites attract.

~~~
pizza234
DRM, lock-ins etc. are a problem for sure, but this is a narrow view.

It's disingenous to depict torrents ("download a pirated movie") as a
problems-free, conventient, alternative, since there is a certain set of
associated problems.

There is malware lingering at each page. The movies are typically in english.
Torrents may be very slow at certain times. Subtitles needs to be searched,
generally separately, and generally, are available only in english. Subtitles
may even be malware (happened a few times to me).

For a part of the audience, using torrents is worth the compromise, but it's
not the very convenient and generic option that is generally depicted.

In addition, most of the people I know switched to streaming long ago; those
who are willing to pay, use Netflix, the other ones, use streaming websites.

~~~
jonknee
> There is malware lingering at each page. The movies are typically in
> english. Torrents may be very slow at certain times. Subtitles needs to be
> searched, generally separately, and generally, are available only in
> english. Subtitles may even be malware (happened a few times to me).

These problems are [mostly] solved for private trackers. It always amazes me
that a group of volunteers can do a better job than huge companies that are
dedicated to the same thing. I'd love to be able to pay for stuff with the
same ease of use as a good private tracker.

~~~
zerocrates
The little guys can do it where the big companies can't because the little
guys can break the law and not get caught or sued into oblivion (for the most
part).

It's a theme that appears a lot in these pages: you can do all sorts of neat
things when you ignore the rules.

~~~
jonknee
There's nothing stopping a company from distributing non-DRM files with an
easy to use interface and fast download speeds...

~~~
coldtea
Did you miss the part above about the law?

Content providers don't allow companies to ship non-DRM movies, so unless that
changes...

~~~
oarsinsync
I think GP was referring to content providers who distribute their own
content, e.g. HBO, Disney, etc.

------
dumbfounder
I don't think reputable ad networks would advertise on pirate sites. The
disreputable ones don't get you $2 cpms. Period. I think he is off by at least
an order of magnitude, maybe more.

Source: I run twicsy.com, which major networks avoid because of nsfw content,
and only get about 12 cent RPM (revenue per page per 1000).

~~~
user5994461
Author here. The estimates could go either way. Kindly note that the stats are
incomplete, notably the welcome page is missing.

Some ads are cheaper, some countries are cheaper. Put 3 ads per page from 3
different networks to counter balance. Then force the page to refresh once or
twice. There are many ways to optimize revenues when one really care about
revenues.

I hate to break it up to you but your site is picture hosting, it's low
engagement and low value. People will not try the wrong "download" button 3
times until they find the right one, only to do the same thing again next week
for the new episode of games of thrones.

~~~
jedberg
As someone who ran a fairly large, mostly reputable website (reddit), I agree
that you are off by an order or magnitude or more. There is no way they get
close to $1 CPM. They'd be lucky to get 10 cents, probably closer to 1 or 2
cents.

They most likely barely break even after paying themselves a modest salary.

~~~
heyalexej
I run a network of a handful of sites that amass roughly 1MM hits per day.
Over the last 14 days, my Ø CPM for pops is $2.74 across all countries, with
the top CPMs being:

    
    
       Country	CPM
       US	  $11.175
       Nigeria	$5.519
       Italy	$4.104
       Iran   $3.636
       Japan	$3.596
       Grenada	$3.591
       Australia	$3.217
       Canada	$3.198
       Egypt	$2.459
       Panama	$2.384
       Germany	$2.244
       France	$2.199
       Israel	$2.146
       UK	  $2.109
       South Africa	$2.035
       Denmark	$1.733
       Finland	$1.732
       Sweden	$1.617
       Portugal	$1.579
       New Zealand	$1.545
       UAE	 $1.528
       Korea	$1.480
       Switzerland	$1.476
       Norway	$1.354
       Latvia	$1.233
    
    

EDIT: formatting

~~~
dumbfounder
What network do you use? Are you popping every page? What is the nature of
your content?

~~~
heyalexej
The nature is very similar to yours, except I use another social network as a
content provider. I use a combination of the top ad networks and optimize
placements based on payouts for a particular country. I do try to pop every
page.

------
t3ra
There are a few things you forgot

$2 CPM!! That's not even close to what shitty ad networks pay. Majority of
traffic comes from countries with < 5 cent CPM

HOSTING COST It's not just about running a wordpress website here. Most decent
site run auto uploaders which need decent size seedboxes. Easily hovering
around a thousand dollars

Sources/runners: If its a scene pre-d site you need access to some runners.
Scene access isn't cheap

Changing Domains & black hat seo: These sites are constantly loosing domains
and almost all google ranking ones are using black hat seo to get their
ranking. Usually means paying someone to do the dirty work.

\-- Some revenue streams you missed

\- Pay Per Link (aka locked/paid link shortner) things like AdFly

\- Background Crypto miners (becoming rather popular on streaming sites)

-'FTP ACCESS' / paid subscriptions

Still millions? Not by a long shot.. Few thousands.. Probably yes

~~~
user5994461
It's really just about running a wordpress site. My blog is a wordpress so I'm
pretty familiar with it. Just need a good theme.

It couldn't be further from being a scene site. The content is limited and
most of it is published late compared to some other sources available.

AdFly is a mix of pay per view and pay per click. Didn't think it was worth a
specific category but why not.

Crypto is a new thing, that certainly wasn't available a year ago. That's a
very interesting point though, shady sites will probably be the first ones to
have a good use for it.

------
CaptSpify
I've said this before on HN, but we _really_ need to get away from the idea
that distribution is hard. Distribution is basically a Solved Problem. We
don't need gatekeepers telling people what they are and aren't allowed to
consume.

What we do need is better economic models that allow the creators to get paid.
People are _clearly_ willing to pay for content, but I don't know of anyone
who wants studios/companies/lawyers/etc to get the money rather than the
artists themselves. This old world way of thinking about content funding
really needs to die off already.

~~~
tfha
What's hard is distribution without allowing redistribution, which is what
traditional companies consider a mandatory prerequisite for distribution

~~~
CaptSpify
And that's what I mean. It's stupid that disallowing redistribution is even a
concept. We have data that can immediately be duplicated infinitely for free,
why should anyone be barred from re-distributing it?

~~~
turc1656
Because property rights exist to allow the owners of intellectual property a
wide ability to legally control the (re)distribution, ownership, and/or
licensing of their creation.

~~~
CaptSpify
And that made sense back when distribution and funding the creators was hard.
That is no longer the case today.

~~~
turc1656
My point was more that it's not the issue of difficulty or whether or not it
could be done, but rather that each property holder has different wishes, and
many times their wishes don't conform to the model which you are suggesting.
They don't really seem to want a consume-all-you-want because that hasn't
proven to be able to replace the income from the classic distribution chain.
Look at Spotify as an example.

~~~
CaptSpify
Oh yeah, I'm not trying to argue against what you are saying, I'm arguing
against the model we are using to monetize. You are absolutely correct.

IDGAF what the property holder wants, unless it's the creator themselves. Even
then, if you don't want it redistributed, maybe don't put it in a format that
is trivial to redistribute in. Just because they've been making money because
of the old model, doesn't mean they have the right to keep making money once
we've automated that away.

------
kapad
I want to add that I subscribe to Netflix, prime and some HBO content via a
local partnership in my country but still regularly watch pirated copies of
content available via my subscriptions for the following two reasons.

1\. Netflix/prime/hotstar(HBO) content is often not in HD while the pirated
content I stream is always HD. 2\. Pirated sites give me a kind of federated
search/browsing for all the content in one place.

The second point I fell is key and will remain even after the subscription
services have improved their CDNs near where I live.

------
polkathrowaway
I know of a few teenagers who do this. Their sites have been taken down
multiple times, but they never seem to stop. I completely understand that
internet forums are no place for seeking legal advice, but I would like to
know what can I do to thwart/report these people (in the United States).

(My real concern is that the money they are generating is being used to fund
illegal activities in the neighborhood -- which I can not tolerate. I have
lost a close one to a drug crisis already, cannot take it more).

~~~
groby_b
Talk to your government about their drug policies enacted at the behest of the
pharmaceutical industry. That's a much bigger problem than the teenagers in
your industry.[1]

Of course, that'll also mean actually getting out the corrupt autocrats
currently in charge. So... get politically engaged. (And by that I mean, do
real work. Posting on social media is not getting politically engaged. Get
out. Organize. Hold your politicians accountable. Run yourself.)

Going after the teens in your neighborhood might feel more satisfying, but the
drug problem is a _systemic_ problem. It's not caused by a few teens, it won't
be fixed by locking up a few teens.

[1]
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/investigations/...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/investigations/dea-
drug-industry-congress/?utm_term=.34c660a4fc92)

~~~
NegativeK
If someone says that they're trying to deal with local drug deaths, telling
them that their local problems aren't worth their time isn't the right answer.

~~~
groby_b
It's convenient to have a local scapegoat. It feels good to inflict pain on
people you perceive as the guilty party. I certainly understand that. I've
lost more than one friend.

But that convenience has brought us to where we are right now. If we continue
to close our eyes to reality, preferring to go after scapegoats, guess what -
nothing is going to change. We _need_ to channel our anger into more
productive channels.

You don't solve a systemic problem by attacking symptoms.

~~~
NegativeK
You also don't keep things healthy by ignoring the symptoms.

------
dmitriid
Oh wow. So piracy. Such millions.

Here's a novel idea that will let you win those "lost" millions back: provide
a legitimate service that beats pirate sites at:

\- content can be easily found

\- content can be easily viewed

\- no arbitary restrictions (oh, you are watching from Sweden? Oh, you only
get a downsampled version with baked in subtitles covering half of the screen
etc.)

Update: Relevant Oatmeal comic
[http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones](http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones)

~~~
sverhagen
After reading discussions on this for years, I feel now that only a small part
of piraters would now still go for that. A lot of them would argue that the
price point is still wrong, or whatever restrictions are left are still
unreasonable.

~~~
mentos
Yea I think I agree with this, most piraters are doing so because they are so
used to the idea of FREE that the idea of spending any money at all on content
is a disaster to them.

~~~
FRex
That's bullshit and hearsay. Until content is provided in convenient standard
formats, DRM free (it does fuck all beyond annoying paying customers already),
offline friendly, region lock free, etc. it's an apples to oranges comparison.
An often offline/mobile binge watcher's only choice for watching conveniently
is piracy or paying way more than the price of the content itself his in
mobile data fees due to streaming enforcement. You can't even rip your own DVD
or BluRAy legally due to DMCA supposedly.

I wanted to get my favorite anime ever legally and this is the end result
(TL;DR; - I _maybe_ could get an Amazon Fire TV and pay 20 dollars to stream
into it in SD quality while BluRay 1080p rips mp4s are floating around
torrents):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15989321](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15989321)

Or are you going to tell me I should get a Fire TV and watch in half the
quality and only on it, or hunt and get that DVD or BluRay from a private
person on an auction site, just so I lose money and not get stuff for free,
despite the studio not getting any from that purchase?

Not everyone is streaming the latest Game of Thrones or something. Niche stuff
goes out of print, into copyright hell (NOLF game series), studios go bust (so
no one who produced the content gets compensated for it, thus moral argument
is gone), there are region locks (and Poland is no small or poor market for
anime), arbitrary restrictions (on what languages and subs you get, on
quality, on devices you can use, stream only enforcement, etc.) and then it's
"theft" to want something you actually can't buy (and that would be feasible
to be available with 0 impact on profits, and that's is actually available
illegally and conveniently).

~~~
s73ver_
Not being available in exactly the way you want it is not an excuse for you to
pirate.

~~~
dmitriid
Copyright holders sell you crap despite non-crap being readily available.

Copyright holders have no intention and have made no moves to replace carp, or
to make non-crap readily and legally available.

Why should I buy crap from copyright holders?

Netflix, Steam, and Spotify have shown that once you provide people with non-
crap, people are more than happy to pay you, and piracy all but disappears.

~~~
s73ver_
I'm not saying you should buy it if you don't like it. I am saying that you
are not entitled to just take it if you don't. You go buy something else that
is provided as you want.

------
revelation
Netflix is at 9 billion, this is a million with some optimistic numbers on
CPM. If piracy is about making money then it seems to be a bad business to be
in.

------
rammy1234
"Did you know that Google pay cash for every new installation of Google
Chrome? Yes, they do." , Is it for real ?

~~~
throwaway1892
Yes, they are paying software creators to add a chrome install in the
installer, usually with a checkbox that's enabled by default. I remember the
creator of VLC saying that refusing Google's offer was the hardest decision
he's taken, so the money offered must be good.

------
LV-426
Given the state of the front page/s of HN now, and lately, I expected the
answer to be coin-hive or some other crypto-currency related thing.

Instead the answer is simply the rather more mundane "advertising".

~~~
user5994461
Don't forget affiliations and subscriptions.

At the height of their time, the likes of rapidshare/megavideo used to pay a
lot.

~~~
LV-426
I've heard that some forums which are dedicated to linking to copyright
violations are owned by the file hosting site they use for the files.

------
RileyJames
Selling traffic via background pop ups is a common method for streaming sites
to make money, likely they kick back some of this revenue to feeder sites like
the one mentioned. See here: [https://www.buzzfeed.com/craigsilverman/porn-
runs-the-intern...](https://www.buzzfeed.com/craigsilverman/porn-runs-the-
internet)

Previously discussed:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15915564](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15915564)

~~~
craftyguy
I hate pop-unders (background popups, whatever you want to call them) with a
passion. When a website I visit spawns one, I immediately blacklist the entire
domain. It's a losing battle through.

~~~
skc
I still don't understand why browser makers can't make this sort of
interactivity impossible to implement.

I can't think of a single good use-case for pop-unders (or pop-ups even)

~~~
jedberg
There two good use cases I can think of.

When you do a captive portal with some sort of timer (hotel, airplane, etc),
they will sometimes do a pop under with a timer that has the option to pay
more to renew. That can be slightly useful.

Or when you visit a site, and it does a pop under of a survey about that site.
Then you see it when you close the window and maybe fill out the survey. That
one is less useful but at least legit.

~~~
s73ver_
I feel there are plenty of alternatives for those legit uses, that getting rid
of the ability to do that won't hurt.

------
lunulata
It's super ironic how many ads "attack your mind and computer" on your site.
You must have like 10 ads on this one blog post... hypocrisy is a tricky
bitch.

~~~
user5994461
There is one banner on the bottom that's added by WordPress. Maybe in you
meant 10 in binary?

------
giarc
I don't understand this section.

>What’s so special about this site? They made one mistake. They opened some of
their analytics statistics in the period 2014-2015, probably not something
they intended to do.

Does the author mean they made available their stats for the period of
2014-2015? The last sentence seems to imply it was a mistake? I'm not sure how
the author got access to the page view data.

~~~
user5994461
Yes, the statistics were available publicly for a short while.

------
tmaly
Who pays for the video storage and streaming costs? The same person with the
site?

~~~
ceejayoz
There's a section titled "Streaming and Hosting Affiliation" in the article
that answers that. Fly-by-night file hosts that pay for hits and serve a
billion malware popups to visitors.

~~~
sandworm101
Except that some of them (rapidgator, keep2share, mega, ul.to etc) have legs.
They've been around a while now and dont use ads, at least not ads that arent
easily blocked by 99% of users. They are shady, but thepiratebay is still a
thing. Being shady doesnt mean you are unreliable or your existance fleeting.

~~~
user5994461
That's doubly wrong. The sites cycled between subscriptions and ads,
historically. None has been around for a full decade in the same form.

------
TheYcMaster
Come'on..they are nothing compared to the massive volume of money the
producers are earning with streaming services and cinema ticket prices. In
2017 we are seeing the average price of 10€ for a 2D film and of 14€ for a 3D
one..that is robbery

------
j_s
Perhaps not millions, but some charge money to host the torrenting and then
streaming of the resulting files.

[https://alternativeto.net/software/bitport-
io/](https://alternativeto.net/software/bitport-io/)

