
Robocalls are overwhelming hospitals and patients - jmsflknr
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/06/17/robocalls-are-overwhelming-hospitals-patients-threatening-new-kind-health-crisis/
======
kurthr
What I suspect the phone companies didn't plan on is the complete devaluing of
one of their only distinguishing features (over cable/ISP), the ability to
deliver phone calls reliably. Nobody wants to get a phone call now... they are
90% spam!

I wonder if in the future people will wonder why they are called phone
companies? Maybe this is all part if their plan to move us to paid SMS or some
other thing, but it seems more like an oops.

~~~
standardUser
I'm intrigued by the idea of simply not having a phone number, but it doesn't
seem like we've reached that era yet. My grandparents would have no way of
contacting me, nor the doctor's office or any number of other businesses.

But it's still a nice dream.

~~~
fossuser
A contact based whitelist would solve this immediately for personal phone use.

There was a single throw away line in WWDC that suggested they may have
finally added this (depending on what they mean by “unknown” caller).

All I want is a contact based whitelist with an API endpoint that allows calls
for a small time window (for doordash and Uber to use).

This would solve 99% of the spam issue. All other calls can go straight to
voicemail. Allow an option for repeated calls to get through if you must.

Apple’s current call kit api only allows blacklists which work poorly and are
a lot less elegant.

~~~
cameronbrown
This isn't really feasible right now. Your bank, your doctor or a potential
employer may all have different numbers each time they call you. Some critical
calls may be unexpected and need the immediate attention a phone call gives
(example: friend on somebody else's mobile)

~~~
cheerlessbog
I let them leave a message, then skim the transcript. So far it's 100% spam,
but I only lose 5 seconds checking and if it's important, I'll see it. I never
pick up unrecognized numbers.

~~~
soulofmischief
If you are receiving transcripts it means your private voicemail data is being
harvested. Even if you may not care, this is a violation of privacy for your
friends and family.

~~~
cheerlessbog
Is that fundamentally different to the calls running over someone else's
network in the first place? But, good point.

~~~
soulofmischief
Yes, I long for encrypted voicemail built into Signal et al. One can only
hope.

------
AnssiH
Robocalls were in the news a couple of days ago here in Finland as well.

The Finnish Competition and Consumer Authority has started receiving reports
of marketing robocalls being made, and they issued a notice noting that such
robocalls made without the customer's consent are illegal and that they and
the Data Protection Ombudsman are currently investigating a case where a
company has been using marketing robocalls: [https://www.kkv.fi/en/current-
issues/press-releases/2019/14....](https://www.kkv.fi/en/current-issues/press-
releases/2019/14.6.2019-robots-cannot-make-telephone-sales-calls-without-
consumers-consent/)

~~~
Scoundreller
Legality doesn’t matter when the callers don’t care about the law.

What I don’t understand is how providers haven’t a clue which providers are
even sending the calls. We know of rogue servers or countries, but not phone
numbers.

~~~
jcranmer
> What I don’t understand is how providers haven’t a clue which providers are
> even sending the calls.

This is how it works. The scammers are using $SCUMMY_VOIP_PROVIDER, which is a
service that's pretty much marketing to illegal robocallers and making money
off of it. The recipient phone companies only know that the calls are coming
from $SCUMMY_VOIP_PROVIDER, and are unable to do anything about it because...
they don't want to. They're not suffering from it, it costs money to build the
systems to work out exactly how scummy $SCUMMY_VOIP_PROVIDER is, and trying to
refuse calls from $SCUMMY_VOIP_PROVIDER might land them in legal hot water
(which would cost them money even if they won).

There is a very effective solution, reputation, which is how spam mail exited
the picture (from most users' perspective). Essentially, you rate your
counterparty provider based on what fraction of their userbase is spam and
make life worse for them the higher it is. The big email providers worked out
the technical solution largely because spam is actually rather expensive to
deal with (storing all spam email would increase your capacity requirements by
~10×), and the solution of screwing spammers over incrementally is easy to
implement (effectively, you can throttle email since retry is builtin).

~~~
amluto
This is why my personal preference is to make the telcos more liable. If you
get a spam call, I think that your telco should pay up under the TCPA if they
can’t collect from the next company in the chain, etc. All these companies
will shape up very quickly.

~~~
bredren
I could barely care a rats ass for telcos. I want internet provider I can
trust. I have very little use for a voice phone provider except for
authentication.

If I could transfer my main number to something that only accepted sms and
voicemail I would immediately and move my iCloud account to an email address.

I don’t believe in at&t, Verizon it any of them. Something better is coming.

~~~
lotsofpulp
ATT and Verizon (and T-Mobile and Sprint) own all the mobile communications
infrastructure. ATT and Verizon own a lot of the wired communications
infrastructure. They are not going anywhere.

------
techsupporter
There's already work underway to authenticate the actual source phone number
of a caller: [https://transnexus.com/whitepapers/stir-and-shaken-
overview/](https://transnexus.com/whitepapers/stir-and-shaken-overview/)

And to make sure the source is set to a value that the caller is allowed to
possess. The problem isn't spoofing of numbers--because the utility is quite
high for legitimate uses, like PBXes and after-hours doctor return calls for
two examples--but the ability to spoof _any_ number, not just numbers a caller
is permitted to use.

~~~
mikeash
I don’t see the utility being very high.

PBXs? Surely you can get a block of numbers you’re allowed to have and use
those.

After hours doctor return calls? Route the call through the physical office,
or just call from a different number.

A system that’s overrun with spam is as useless as having no system at all. We
got close to that with email in the late 90s and we’re getting close with
phones today. Requiring some minor, inconsequential changes to how a few
people use the system should be easily acceptable.

~~~
PenguinCoder
I have a PBX (Asterisk) I setup as my main/primary/only personal number. That
number is given out to anyone who needs it. The beauty of this is, no one has
my personal cell (or other) numbers. This makes it very easy for me to block
any spam numbers. In fact, I inject the FCC telemarketer spam caller list into
the system blacklist. I also have it setup that the caller needs to 'press 1'
to reach a human. It's not exactly hard to setup, but is certainly not for
non-technical folks. However this system has given me the control over my
phone number, callers, and spammers.

~~~
zyberzero
I've been looking in to doing so myself; but then the hassle (for me) is all
test based communication. How can you keep your personal cell number a secret,
while having access to texts? (I need to give my phone number to a number of
companies so that they can text me)

------
Wowfunhappy
So, when are we going to actually take away the ability to spoof your phone
number?

Whatever utility that feature may have is clearly outweighed by all the harm
it's causing. It's past time we get rid of it.

~~~
metahatem
> Whatever utility that feature may have is clearly outweighed by all the harm
> it's causing

I'm curious. What utility does spoofing a phone number have?

~~~
viraptor
People calling from company phones, but wanting callbacks to the switchboard.

People with multiple phone cards, but wanting callbacks in one place.

People with phone numbers belonging to another country.

Doctors responding to out of hours requests, but not wanting to share their
direct contact.

------
pessimizer
Odd thought, but I wonder if the current robocall plague is (and will be)
affecting polling during this election cycle? The result of relentless
robocalls for me has been that I simply never answer calls from unknown
numbers anymore. When unknown numbers were telemarketers and telephone survey
people, I'd answer unknown callers because I could politely decline.

~~~
Balgair
538 did some good analysis and explinations about this exact issue, but the
articles that I can quickly google are from a while ago [0][1]. You can look
over their analysis of different pollsters that they use and get a feeling for
what 538 thinks is bias [2]. Despite some negative press in some circles, they
tend to do a very good job of making sense of the maddness that is polling and
they are very upfront about their own biases and issues.

[0] [https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/study-excluding-
cellpho...](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/study-excluding-cellphones-
introduces/)

[1] [https://fivethirtyeight.com/tag/polling-
bias/](https://fivethirtyeight.com/tag/polling-bias/)

[2] [https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pollster-
ratings/](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pollster-ratings/)

------
frankydp
While the desire to enable carrier level and carrier determined blocking of
calls seems appealing for functionality, make sure to strongly consider the
significant power that such authority would create. As a change would revert a
base requirement of being a carrier which is connect all calls, in the same
vein as net neutrality.

~~~
m463
I wouldn't mind if each call had a connection fee, such as a penny to try to
connect to a number. That would (might?) align the carriers with the changes
necessary.

I also find it really annoying how cellphone and smartphone companies don't
give individuals the tools to redirect unknown callers to voicemail or do some
sort of basic algorithmic/call screening things. On iphone the most beginning
programmer could come up with something better than do not disturb.

~~~
test6554
I would mostly disable my inbound calling capability altogether if I could.
There is just ever so slightly more than zero benefit to receiving voice phone
calls.

------
Scoundreller
What I’ve found with the Mandarin calls is if I press a number (usually 0), I
get connected to someone.

But I don’t speak Mandarin, so all I can let out are some Nihao’s and can only
waste up to 15s of their time.

I really need a Mandarin soundboard on a webpage to do some It’s Lenny time
wasting.

~~~
mehrdadn
Anybody know what these calls are even about? I'm curious.

~~~
aatharuv
Harassing people into giving out their personal details by claiming they're
from immigration, at least according to some articles on the subject.

~~~
mehrdadn
Calling from immigration... in Chinese?! This is supposed to be US
immigration?

~~~
jessaustin
One must look under the lamppost. This is a sales funnel, and the undocumented
Chinese immigrants who fall out because they can't understand English will
outnumber those who don't believe immigration can speak Mandarin.

------
caymanjim
I'm not sure why they singled out hospitals (and particularly patients) for
this article. This is a problem for any business and indeed anyone with a
phone. I get the calls constantly. While a hospital emergency line getting one
of these calls is annoying, and perhaps more detrimental than another business
getting calls, it still doesn't stand out enough to warrant any specific focus
like this. Police, fire, and ambulance services are all affected as well.
Aside from the hospital's emergency number, they're just a big business, and
the disruption to their administrative staff is no more harmful to society
than the disruption of any office's administrative staff. And the patients are
irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

The FCC just last week started tackling this. They're working on allowing
telco providers to implement blocking and also whitelisting. I haven't read
all the details, but it seems like there were regulations preventing them from
acting, and they're trying to remove those regulations.

In the end, this is a technical problem. It simply shouldn't be possible to
spoof phone numbers this way. Surely the major telcos know where these calls
are originating, at least on a network level. If they're all coming from
China, clearly they're not going to block all of China, but they could ensure
that calls coming from China's telco(s) are not routed if their source caller
ID info is spoofed to indicate a US network. That might not stop the calls,
but at least they wouldn't show up as coming from US numbers.

If you've never been a recipient of one of these calls, one of the hallmarks
is that the caller ID will show it coming from the same area code and exchange
as your number. So if your phone number is 917-555-1212, the calls will
usually appear to come from 917-555-XXXX. Surely the phone company has a way
to identify and handle this situation, at least better than they do now.
Mobile phones probably complicate this. Maybe someone who knows how the
networks operate can speak about the technical barriers?

[1]:
[https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-19-51A1.pdf](https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-19-51A1.pdf)

~~~
bredren
It isn’t that I disbelieve you. But why do you think they originate from
China?

Almost all of mine are related to health insurance or small business loans. Is
this what you think comes from China?

~~~
caymanjim
Literally all the spam calls I receive are in Mandarin. I don't speak
Mandarin, but from what I've read, it's a scam targeting Mandarin speakers,
telling them that they or their loved ones back in China are in some legal or
immigration trouble, and demanding that money be sent to someone in China.

As I don't speak Mandarin, I can't confirm that all my calls are this specific
scam, nor does that necessarily mean that the calls originate in China. The
"block China" comment was more of an example. For all I know, it's a scam
organized and operated from inside the US that just happens to target Mandarin
speakers.

My comment was for illustrative purposes, with some assumptions backed by
various news articles (a few random ones linked below). I should note that I
have a NYC phone number and this specific Chinese-targeted scam is the source
of basically all spam calls to New Yorkers (anecdotally, but strongly so based
on everyone I know in NYC getting the same calls, and on the reporting
indicating that SF and NYC are the prime targets).

[1]: [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/whats-behind-all-those-
chinese-...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/whats-behind-all-those-chinese-
speaking-robocalls/)

[2]: [https://www.pcmag.com/news/367491/chinese-embassy-
robocall-s...](https://www.pcmag.com/news/367491/chinese-embassy-robocall-
scam-rakes-in-40m-from-victims)

[3]: [https://www.npr.org/2018/05/10/609117134/chinese-
robocalls-b...](https://www.npr.org/2018/05/10/609117134/chinese-robocalls-
bombarding-the-u-s-are-part-of-an-international-phone-scam)

------
Scoundreller
I feel bad for the hospitals that replaced their pagers with on-call phones
for their staff.

Should’ve stuck with the pagers.

------
fnord77
> For most Americans, such robocalls represent an unavoidable digital-age
> nuisance,

No, I'm pretty sure this is very avoidable if phone companies put some effort
into it.

~~~
Barrin92
Or if the practice was simply banned. In Germany companies cold calling
private individuals carries a heavy fine (up to several hundred k), and I
haven't had a robocall in 20 years.

~~~
paradoja
Having a German (as parent poster) and Spanish phone for many years, I have
never had a robocall. It's really surprising to me that this is a problem at
all.

------
themagician
I think it’s interesting just reading this thread how everyone gets different
types of calls. Mine are almost exclusively either: 1) Hilton/Marriott/Hyatt
scam calls from Mexico trying to get me to give up a credit card for a “free
vacation”, or 2) lower your interest rate on your credit card scams from
India. Every now and then there’s a social security scam from I’m not sure
where.

Sometimes I just google “test credit card numbers” and read them off the dev
documents for various processors. They almost always hang up the second it
validates. I wonder if they realize the transaction won’t actually go through.

------
OskarS
I'm surprised this isn't a bigger issue in the election, actually. I realize
that there are bigger issues at stake, but robocalling seems like a tangible
thing that basically all Americans deal with every day and absolutely loathe,
across all party, class and racial lines. It's also something that politicians
actually can do something about. I figure the first candidate that goes up on
a stage and says "I will end robocalls" will get massive applause.

------
b_tterc_p
In previous threads people have mentioned implementing captchas that require
users to input a number. This feels like a great solution that should be
implemented at the os level.

~~~
Jessie_James
This is called an IVR, and any company that uses one blocks 100% of spam
calls. The robots simply cannot dial the extension to get through.

Almost any company can get one, and any person can get one on a VOIP line.
(Yes, ironic.)

------
jeffdubin
Legitimate use for spoofing: A call from outside the office comes into the
company phone system and my extension is set to ring multiple phones
simultaneously, some external to the phone system (e.g. mobile phone). I want
the caller ID info coming into my mobile to be that of the original caller,
not that of my phone system. If I couldn't spoof the caller's number, I would
see the phone number of my office.

~~~
caymanjim
This is something that is already easily be handled by the office PBX system.
The call coming into the PBX from the phone company should be unspoofable to
the extent possible.

------
AtomicOrbital
after I starting using the Google Fi phone service I have never received a
single spam phone call Period. ... evidently Google has mastered art of
shunting spam calls ... its an incredibly valuable benefit and my bill is half
it was with ATT or similar ... so this problem is solvable given sufficient
tech savvy ... Google should peddle this service to land lines too so places
like hospitals can benefit

~~~
SeanLuke
I'm on Fi and get them all the time.

~~~
tfha
Yeah same. Tons of spam calls on my fi number.

------
S_A_P
I know the proof is the simple fact that the robocalls exist, but I can’t
imagine a situation where people gather in a meeting and say “I know how we
can make money! We will set up a call center and sell fake car warranties!!!”
When I think about it I hear Brian Regan’s voice. Probably the bit he did
about kidnapping Russell Crowe.

------
S_A_P
I just looked at my call log. It ranges from around 90% real calls to 90%
spam. The net effect of all of this is that I never answer a call that isn’t a
contact anymore. It’s kind of hilarious that my Smartphone is now mainly an
answering machine.

~~~
albeebe1
you'd love ios13

------
thebooglebooski
Is this not just an alternate form of DDOS? Imagine if you're operating
emergency services, and your phone rings non-stop.

When someone actually has a legitimate emergency, the emergency service
provider is essentially overwhelmed by the volume.

------
fearface
I live in a central European country and receive 0-2 spam calls per month. And
that's because my phone number was used by someone else before (it's a company
phone).

Why is this such a big problem in the US?

~~~
05
US has a lot of rich old gullible people speaking the same language. Central
Europe doesn't, so it's not as cost effective to target. It doesn't help that
you can hire a lot of English speaking people for pennies in India to staff
the call centers.

~~~
dredmorbius
Legibility-as-weakness.

[https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/07/26/a-big-little-idea-
call...](https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/07/26/a-big-little-idea-called-
legibility/)

------
tomcam
Because of robocalls I normally ignore caller IDs I don’t recognize, which is
a disaster when my home alarm goes off and they notify me. The alarm company
has some numbers I haven’t noted yet.

------
islon
If someone creates an adBlock/uBlock for phones (s)he will get rich.

Imagine having a community-curated whitelist of numbers (plus the ones from
your friends/family).

~~~
hollerith
How would the adBlock-like software obtain the real phone number of the
caller?

Serious question.

~~~
dredmorbius
Wrong problem. Only needs to determin intent and spamminess.

Most calls are known. Good calls can be classed at aggregate (for crowdsourced
tools). Bad or suspect calls are either known or unknown and can be subjected
to workfactor remedies.

------
TheLuddite
How about we separate the phone network from the Internet. I see no reason why
VoIP should exist to be honest.

~~~
test6554
How about we make phone calls a whitelist-driven system with cryptographic
tokens and use software to give your phone number to others. When this
exchange happens, it comes with a token, and your phone does not ring if the
token is not included.

So when someone calls you and you expect it to be bob, but it is steve the
scammer, you can revoke bob's token and text him with WTF bob? How much did
steve pay you?

~~~
dotancohen
I already do this with email. Anything send to @mydomain.com gets to my catch-
all, and the token is whatever is to the left of the @ sign.

I've caught so many companies either breached or selling data that it is not
funny.

------
andrewstuart
There needs to be ReCaptcha for inbound calls.

~~~
jacobsenscott
Google rolled out a call screening service for android that is basically that.
But I don't use it much. If it happens to be a legit call it is a fairly
awkward interaction - just letting it go to voicemail and calling back seems
nicer, and less surprising to the caller. If it is a robocall it really isn't
better than voicemail.

------
mdrzn
Now I can't even use Incognito to surf the WP or I get blocked? Man, this
website may as well die.

~~~
dredmorbius
Disable JS.

------
mirimir
Anyone have an archive link?

~~~
Wowfunhappy
The Washington Post offers a limited number of articles for free, have you
tried a private window?

~~~
mirimir
> You consent to the use of cookies and tracking by us and third parties to
> provide you with personalized ads

But I don't.

~~~
roywiggins
If you're worried about tracking, just disable scripts and cookies on that
domain. Much less tracking, and as a side effect, the paywall stops working.

~~~
mirimir
In Firefox with NoScript, that gives me a black page, headed with their
name/logo and (ironically):

> Democracy Dies in Darkness

~~~
roywiggins
Well, there must be some combination of subdomains and assets to block to get
it to mostly work, at the expense of running some JavaScript, as it's been
stable and working for me for at least a year. It even works on mobile.

