
Software certifications; a waste of time and money (2018) - mothsonasloth
https://tomaytotomato.com/certs-waste-of-time/
======
beardface
What I like about some certifications is that they're effectively a learning
path. Even if you don't take the exam, after going through the curriculum,
doing labs to cement the knowledge, and practiced sample exams, your knowledge
of the subject improves dramatically.

Learning on the job, you learn solutions to your own problems and
architectures for your own use-cases. You're not exposed to all areas so
remain naive about some features. A good certification will give you a much
more holistic view of the platform.

This is all through the lens of Elastic Certified Engineer and various AWS
certs though, instead of software development.

~~~
rootsofallevil
The problem I see with certifications is that a lot of them tend to have
trivia questions that are easy to look up but relatively unimportant, e.g.
naming restrictions on azure resources is one the comes to mind.

I'm currently following a couple of certs for the learning paths, might even
take the exam for one if my employer pays for it and the time off

~~~
bjornjajajaja
I find the systems oriented classes like RedHat Linux admin, Network+,
security+, etc are really nice. Lots of stuff in there to build skills in
generally useful topics.

As for cloud stuff, haven’t really done them but I can’t say I’d bother
personally. If you know the above topics well it’s easy enough to RTFM and get
up to speed.

Edit: perhaps “cloud stuff” too much of a blanket term. For instance, more
complex cloud stuff like Kubernetes probably worthwhile certifying in. But
that’s useful in multiple cloud environments, as opposed to cloud specific
things like AWS.

Again, I haven’t don’t those certs si someone else probably has better idea
than me.

~~~
scarface74
And people who think “cloud stuff” is just mirroring networking infrastructure
on AWS/Azure is how the world ends up with “consultants” who just passed a
certification, and know how to do a lift and shift and end up costing their
clients more than just staying at a colo.....

------
Spooky23
Big companies and government hire armies of cheap contractors to do the grunt
work that keeps the company growing.

A tax collector doesn’t want creative programmers. They want a repeatable
process that meets their procurement rules. They may even deliberately choose
to make sure that nobody knows how everything works! They boil down a process
into functional components, and hire cheap labor to fill in the blanks.

When you’re paying a body shop $40 an hour to have someone move across the
planet to sling J2EE or whatever, you’re getting what you pay for. (Remember
the contractor would probably get a raise working the night shift at Taco
Bell) These certifications boil down to a third party attesting that you sat
down somewhere and wrote hello world. In that market, it is valuable.

~~~
throwawayjava
What you're saying is _so_ true, but it's worth saying: it doesn't work.

This is exactly how once-great tech companies die. This is how governments
lose the faith of their citizenry.

~~~
adrianN
I suspect that a large fraction of the software in use is written at least in
part using that method. Now you can debate whether that software actually
works or not, but I think that its value is not net negative.

~~~
Aeolun
But does the software work _because_ of the body shop? Or _despite_ it.

~~~
adrianN
No, the question is whether a competitor that doesn't use a body shop can make
software that provides more value to customers.

------
mrits
I don't mind sending my engineers off to work on certs. It seems like a
plausible way to get someone interested in learning some aspects of a tech
that they might not otherwise run into -- since a cert covers more things than
one would actually use. However I don't consider it in hiring. It's not that I
don't value the knowledge that comes from prepping, it's that I believe the
long term success of an engineer has little to do with what they are currently
working with.

------
kureikain
I had all the AWS certs and I can say it's a total waste of time. These
certifications (AWS) probably is for sale engineer than a engineer that really
do the works. But I had to get the certs in order to become an AWS partner :(.

~~~
acvny
Yes AWS certs are so dumb, it is a certification of how to use the UI of a
website which will change in several months.

~~~
scarface74
The AWS certs have nothing to do with “how to use the UI”. How do you propose
that they would even test on using the UI?

------
BitwiseFool
In my experience certificates don't matter to project managers and other
programmers, but they are a factor in getting noticed by HR during the
hiring/recruiting process.

Granted, they don't matter as much once you get to the in-person interviews,
but during the screening stage they are helpful (in my anecdotal experience).

------
CrankyBear
Cute, but here's the bottom line. Some certifications show you really do have
a clue. Some don't. But, all of them open HR doors, which would be otherwise
closed.

~~~
LaGrange
...and, in case of IT, it's a great example how some doors are best left
unopened.

~~~
ygra
Why? You can always reject a job offer, but you can't materialize one out of
thin air when there is none.

~~~
JanisL
On occasion I've worked with people who honestly value certifications more
than actual competence and if I'm considering working with them this is
something that I'd like to know about ahead of time. The cost of finding this
out later can be quite high.

------
lutorm
I thought the article would be about certifying software, not software
developers. That would have been a more interesting topic to me... ;-)

------
timwaagh
A OCA certificate (like the author holds) isn't actually that easy to pass.
You sit through a 2 hour multiple choice exam. Maybe it was easy for him, but
that says more about him. I had to study for a month to get up to a sufficient
level to pass. I learned quite a bit, even though i had two and a half years
of experience as a java developer. Someone who passes that has healthy enough
brain cells and knows java well enough to be a valuable team member. Of course
certificates aren't the be-all-and-end-all, but if i was hiring another Java
dev and one of them held an OCA, then i wouldn't need to check his java
knowledge. If he did not, I would need to look at his code, at least. Of
course, not every cert is as well recognized in the market as the OCA and some
or even most of them might well be useless.

~~~
commandlinefan
I took the Sun certification for Java 2 about 20 years or so ago. Actually I
took two: the programmer certification, which was a multiple choice exam, and
the developer certification that required you to develop an app, turn it in,
and then answer some questions about some of your design decisions (I assume
to prove that you really wrote it yourself). My overall experience was
similar: I spent about a month studying on and off, learned a lot, and felt
like I was a better Java developer for it.

------
croo
The world of certificates is not as black or white as the post suggests. I
have a few useless certificates too but if I will ever interview a person with
a Java8 OCA exam I will not bother him/her with java tests thats for sure.

------
nikanj
See also all the various "cloud security assessment" certificates for
organizations.

They require you to burn a ton of money drafting policies, writing TPS
reports, and generally just pushing pencils. Ostensively to improve the
security of your SaaS, but really mostly to work as a barrier to entry.

The cost of a full-time compliance officer is minuscule for well-funded
startups, but a massive challenge for a bootstrapped business of two people in
a garage. Hence well-funded startups do their best to encourage regulation
that asks for as many certifications, trials and tribulations as possible.

------
29athrowaway
Among certifications, the most absurd one is the Scrum one.

A random guy with no exposure to software whatsoever can spend a few hours
become a Certified Scrum Master (tm).

Unlike CSM, there are certifications that matter, have weight and at least
have basic prerequisites.

~~~
stanferder
It's not Certified Scrum Master™, it's Certified Scrum Master®. That trademark
is _registered_.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
I really feel like they missed out the opportunity to create Scrum Lords.

~~~
commandlinefan
My wife and I were talking at dinner about a problem she was having with a
Scrum Master at work, and our son, who was probably about 12 at the time said,
“Scrum Master? That sounds like something a third-grader would call another
third grader as an insult! You’re such a … Scrum Master!”

And I’m not sure he was that far off.

------
jariel
It entirely depends what you're getting them for.

For certain kinds of contract work, and specific things within IT it's one of
those 'checkmarks' that can really help, or be essential in some cases.

They don't necessarily make you better at this or that.

Should note: after a very long time in software, I'm still embarrassed at some
'little things' I should know, but don't.

In electrical work, they have _apprenticeships_ and tests for certification.
They have apprenticeships in carpentry as well.

I suggest the software world would be much better if we had such a thing. The
basics of computer science, plus the basics of _applied_ knowledge in one or
more established languages where you learn how to write idiomatic code, basic
architecture etc. - and - basic software communication, code reviews etc..

If you have a degree in CS you can skip the first part, but even so many of
those spend years without knowing how to write SQL, do basic things on linux,
write idiomatic code etc..

I wonder why Google doesn't publish an online course and say 'you need to know
these basic things to be a pro dev'.

------
colecut
Software certifications - waste of time and money.

College - waste of money.

Working - waste of time.

haha

~~~
vkou
My university education cost me ~$30,000, and it has directly paid for itself
many-fold, by making me eligible for a work visa.

I have a hard time calling that a waste of money.

People vastly underestimate how many doors not having a degree closes for you.

~~~
blackearl
I know someone who got a $200,000 philosophy degree and now works in retail.
It's not as simple as you're implying.

~~~
vkou
And even then, they can go out and apply for something like an office manager
job, which has advancement prospects, that their degree-less peers, who have
been working retail for the past 20 years, and will be working retail until
the day they die, _can 't_.

I don't judge them for not exercising this option, as I don't know them,
everyone's life situation is different, etc, etc. But they at least _have_
that option, should they [choose to/end up in a position to] work towards it.

A degree doesn't magically open doors for you. But in 2020, not having a
degree will actively _close_ doors for you.

To put it another way: A seat belt does not guarantee you will survive a
serious car crash, but not having one is not going to help your prospects.

~~~
blackearl
It can close doors on certain life events. Buying a house, being financially
stable enough to have kids, living without the burden of a massive debt. I
think I'm not against degrees overall, but it's almost predatory these days. I
remember my high school counselor filling my head with these ideas of becoming
an MD and how much money I could make. Don't recall ever asking if I liked
that sort of stuff. I dropped out early and went into IT and have been pretty
successful. There are folks where a degree is really just a debt and they'd be
better off learning a trade.

~~~
vkou
> I remember my high school counselor filling my head with these ideas of
> becoming an MD and how much money I could make. Don't recall ever asking if
> I liked that sort of stuff.

Not liking your job is the most normal thing in the world. It is incredibly
privileged to have a job that you actually like doing.

> There are folks where a degree is really just a debt and they'd be better
> off learning a trade.

There are large problems with going into a trade, too. It's hard work, your
body is destroyed after 15-20 years of it, you are incredibly vulnerable to
economic cycles, you don't make much money in most of them, unless you become
a business owner. It's better than stocking shelves, but that's a pretty low
bar to clear.

To tie back to your earlier point, tradespeople almost universally hate their
jobs. Most of them like the money, but hate the job.

------
Bnshsysjab
I’ve also come across a few that seem to be downright scams. CREST security
Cerys are ~$6k AUD, but from people I’ve spoken to they’re largely irrelevant
to modern day security practices but required for various work in certain
fields such as finance.

I imagine the people who run the cert board are making a fortune at least.

~~~
rtempaccount1
My anecodotal info. on CREST, as someone who's been in the industry a while,
and has a CREST cert.

The exams (like any) aren't perfect, but if you pass the CCT, you need to at
least be pretty familiar with common pentest tooling and able to use them
quickly and under pressure of time.

They're not perfect and some have said they could use some updating.

As to CREST being rolling in cash, you'd be surprised to find out that, as far
as I can tell, that's not the case.

The main org. is incorporated in the UK, so you can see their financial
statements for free
[https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09805375/filing-h...](https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09805375/filing-
history) is the list and from a look at their latest accounts, you can see
it's not big business...

~~~
Bnshsysjab
Does knowing some obscure nmap flag _really_ make you a good baseline
candidate? Aptitude tests are hard, but CRT was silly things like ‘what
normally runs on port 1433’. I don’t care. I have 2 devices that can google on
my person at anytime when the question is relevant. I’d prefer to see MCS*,
OSCP, OSCE, hell even pentesterlabs stuff. Anything that runs at or near
actual cost of development.

I also don’t take financial reports as gospel. I’m no finance guru but assume
it’s possible / easy to hide money, or it gets reinvested into marketing the
notion that crest actually matters, the former at which doesn’t make the thing
a giant scam at least.

~~~
rtempaccount1
Any multiple choice exam is going to not necessarily mimic the real world, but
doing exams that do is pretty tricky, and I can't think of one in the pentest
world that gets it right (e.g. OSCP can't think of any time I've had a 24 hour
window for a pentest, whilst sitting in a single room with no assistance and
someone watching me from a webcam).

CRT has a practical element which demonstrates knowledge of tools, and the CCT
bumps that up quite a bit.

On the second point, I think accusing CREST of financial shenanigans is a bit
of a stretch given you think they should make more money than their public
accounts show they do.

------
int_19h
I don't know if this is still true today, but software development
certificates certainly helped me find the first jobs to bootstrap my career.
Granted, this was because I could get them relatively easily back when I was
15 - so before even getting to college. And later I dropped out of college, so
I needed something in lieu of a degree to get past that initial HR screen and
into the interview, where actual knowledge and skills mattered.

I don't think there was any practical value in a sense of skills learned while
preparing for the certification exams. But it was very low cost - I didn't
take any courses, only the exams themselves, and self-studied for them; so
mostly it was a time investment, and spare time is plentiful at that age. So
I'd say they paid off handily.

------
frausto
Software ones can be good or bad, but software adjacent ones can be downright
ridiculous.

A running joke at my last role was that I would keep trying to get the company
to pay for my Scrum Master Training, which conveniently had a Hawaii option.

But in all seriousness, what a silly "Certification".

------
commandlinefan
> If you can pass them, that's great but does it prove you can work and handle
> complex business problems, probably not.

No, but neither does anything else. We (as a civilization) have settled on
using tests as an objective proxy to measure knowledge. Although I generally
agree that software certifications don’t mean much, saying that they’re
useless because they’re tests dismisses almost all forms of education. Lawyers
have a bar exam that, if passed, tells you a lot about that person’s knowledge
of the law. Just because current software certification exams are relatively
easy to pass and don’t tell you much about a candidate, that doesn’t mean that
a decent test couldn’t be put together.

------
disconnected
Software certification matters in certain industries.

In automotive and airspace, you will find that being certified opens a bunch
of doors for you.

From a company's perspective, these certification don't PROVE that you know
what you are doing, but at least they prove that you aren't completely in the
dark with regards to all the annoying processes that exist in the industry
(stuff like MISRA-C, Automotive SPICE and so on). Or at the very least, you
aren't lying when you say that you've TOTALLY heard of them, honest (un-
shockingly, people lie on their resumes, even about things that can be easily
checked).

This might not get you hired, but it will make them consider you.

~~~
_spoonman
I agree. To add another industry, with government and/or defense contractors,
certifications matter immensely - sometimes more than actual work experience.

~~~
jswizzy
this is unfortunately true. I meet one too many people who had the
certifications for a job but not the skills when I worked as a government
scientist. Some people can pass any test you throw at them without retaining
or learning a thing.

------
dartdartdart1
Did a google cloud associate cloud engineer cert, nothing really came out of
it. Not postings are looking for it, maybe it's different for AWS certs, but I
don't think recruiters or HMs care at all

~~~
tecleandor
IIRC, when you're a Google Cloud Partner, you're required to hold a certain
number of Google Certified Engineers in your team, that number varying
depending on you Partner Level, BUT, the associate certification doesn't count
for that number.

Because of that reason, I got the Google Cloud Architect certification that
was paid by my, then, company.

If I were screening people for a Cloud Sysadmin job, I would appreciate the
associate certification as it would prove that you are, at least, familiar
with the platform. Higher level certifications may help to maintain partner
status, and also, in Google Cloud, they're not the classic "memorize the
answers" type of exam, so I feel like people going through them have some sort
of real life experience.

Anyway, I probably wouldn't use ANY kind of certification as a final decision
for hiring somebody, unless we're required to hire a certificated person for
any reason. I value experience, interest and learning abilities before
certifications. I'd rather hire someone very skilled on googleing solutions
than a classic certified guy who memorized a Cisco book.

~~~
henryfjordan
What do you get for being a "Google Cloud Partner" that makes it worth jumping
through those hoops?

Edit: It looks like the Partner program is aimed at consultants looking to
prove to clients they know how to use Google Cloud

~~~
tecleandor
It's mostly commercial stuff. For the lower levels:

You show you're 'friends' with Google. You miiiiight get some work through
them. You get to show interesting business cases on their conferences. You get
to know their timelines a bit before the general public. You can consult them
on products when you're getting a bidding ready for a client.

That kind of stuff.

------
raslah
Certifications were key to my career in tech since I transistioned late from a
totally unrelated, blue collar field. For me they were a way for me to
convince myself it was okay to apply for a job doing something I was new at.
What's weird is I see many of those who tout hands on experience and
'projects' as the only true mark of competence who routinely apply for and get
jobs that they aren't exactly qualified for. I never had that kind of ego.
Certs were my confidence.

------
thrownaway954
i'm calling BS on this one. i personally worked with a dude who had both his
cissp and oscp. he told me that _the_moment he put cissp on his linkedin
profile, the doors opened for him. i know in my former life my mcse cert
helpful me tremendously.

~~~
blackrock
It’s been known that the Cisco CCIE certification is useful, because companies
get purchasing discounts from Cisco if they have someone on staff with that
certificate.

So for the company, it’s cheaper for them to buy Cisco equipment by just
hiring a CCIE guy, and just letting him sit in the corner and play video games
all day at work.

If that’s what you want your career to be about, then I guess getting a CCIE
certification is worth it.

Edit: Fixed it.

~~~
somurzakov
the only reason they provide discounts is because Cisco is more likely to
upsell more stuff and more frequently to a company that has CCIE people. CCIEs
themselves would advocate from inside to purchase the entire ecosystems from
Cisco, rather than from multiple vendors, because of integrated ecosystem,
"smaller tco", single-pane-of-glass, blabla, and other reasons

------
kube-system
The real value in certs is from a business partnership perspective. It's a
measurable way to coerce your business partners into RTFM for your product....
and collect a bit of revenue as their operation scales.

I think too many people think certs are for _them_. Rarely are companies going
out of their way to build a certification program for your personal benefit.

~~~
em-bee
that is only true for company specific certifications.

independent organizations providing certifications may either profit from
selling training. (which is fine if the training is good) or the profit comes
from the fees to take the test.

linux processional institute for example is not profit oriented and provides
the LPI certificates for the benefit of the community. and it's one of the
better certificates out there

------
FpUser
There is a difference between general education and those software
certifications. I have masters in physics and had never really studied
software formally. Having studies in University I believe had set me up for
life, very grateful. However I've switched from science to being a programmer
fairly quickly for financial reasons. I've never taken any software course and
in my about 40 years long stint I was never asked about any software
certification.

What did happen instead 2 or 3 times when I was getting some consulting gigs
was that the client would try to have me pass some IQ / Aptitude / Whatever
else test. I already have a reputation for delivering solutions and whole
bunch of nicest references. So I just apologized and walked away. Not playing
these kindergarden games.

------
jones_linkkpro
Certifications are like a goal post it helps us to learn something with a
target. It becomes a trend nowadays Udacity Nanodegree, Upgrad and ... I
attended certain courses in Udacity I feel certifications from certain vendors
(Udacity, Springboard) are worth to get it.

------
cafard
Over 20 years ago I got an Oracle Certified Professional card, I think as a
DBA for version 8. Had I ever been tempted to boast about it, a conference or
two of listening to what veteran DBAs said about OCPs would have cured the
temptation.

------
caconym_
It's not clear to me whether these certifications can actually help one get a
stable, well-paying, unshitty job.

If they can ... don't hate the player, hate the game. There are certainly more
damaging examples of rent-seeking behavior all around us.

------
ViPrLa
Certifications can be abused when incentivized incorrectly.

Our company has a specialized product that offers multiple certificates with
names like Core, Advanced, Expert, etc. The Core and Advanced are free
certifications. We provide free access to prep guides, videos, and a community
forum.

These two exams are not easy and many fail the first time. But they are free
and designed to help identify weak areas while learning the product and its
resources. Fortunately our users love our product and many retake a second
time.

It has helped create a community within our industry to learn and help each
other. It's been wonderful.

------
bor100003
Last year I took a software certificate, my last employer demanded it. The
experience was miserable. It was memorizing trivia and in the end, you are
watched by some pervert though the laptop camera.

------
craig_asp
Certs are maybe one of the last things my colleagues and I look for on a CV.
However, in many cases, it does help a bit to have some relevant certificates
listed there, especially if the candidate is applying for a junior position,
or a position which does not explicitly require a tertiary degree, since it
shows that they have made some effort in the right direction. Unfortunately,
very often they had gone through some brain dumps and cannot demonstrate even
basic subject matter knowledge in person.

~~~
isbvhodnvemrwvn
When I worked for a company which tracked this religiously, an average junior
candidate with at least one certificate listed on his application had a lower
score than an average junior candidate. The observation was the same, people
frequently sunk time into some cert which taught them some syntax quirks, or
were so shallow that the basic concepts behind what they (supposedly) learned
were totally foreign to them. Too little practical knowledge for it to matter.

------
badrabbit
Certs are not a qualification to hold a job titlez they simply show you passed
an exam on a subject matter, they are for the job interviewer to let them know
you know enough to pass that specific exam so thay they can inquire and focus
on more complex/intricate technical questions about your skills and
experience. They get a candidate an interview,not a job.

If you hire people simply because they hold certs,that's your screw up for not
holding a more thorough technical interview.

------
acvny
Programming certifications are very useful and important for one thing at
least - unless you learn for a certification and pass the exam, you cannot
tell that you really know something well.

As for the non-programming like AWS or Scrum Master (WTF) - it's loss of time.
Especially Scum Master - it's a scam and it is designed to squeeze you of
money by having 3 levels :)

------
commandersaki
Certifications* are glorified vendor manuals.

They limit your understanding of the field the certificate pertains to. The
value it brings is the things you learned __and companies continue to accept
and validate it as some useful token. Outside of that it is near worthless.

* Software & IT industry certifications. __You could have learned the same things outside of a certification.

------
redwine2020
Agree. I had bunch of certifications but could not help me to secure better
job. Therefore I'm no longer pursue any certification.

------
smitty1e
In a watered-down way, certifications are to people what logging is to the
server: a way to communicate information about state that could prove useful.

Certifications are a little bit better than certifications.

Without them, we'd be forced to rely even more strongly on interpersonal
relationships than we already do.

------
fred_is_fred
The cert isn't useful but the forcing function of studying for the exam can
be, especially on practical exams like the CKA. At least for me, when I know
that I have a test coming up it's very motivating and helps me focus.

------
d4mi3n
I think this really depends on the job and industry. AWS certs, for example,
while not generally sought after, are generally positively viewed for
companies that are trying to fill out devops and/or cloud security teams.

~~~
isop
I just got an AWS cert myself (Solutions Architect Associate) and while I
don't have any experience with other certs, I do feel like studying for it
helped me get a better understanding of what AWS services were available and
how to better design systems using the AWS services. There weren't really any
"memorization" questions, the questions were more scenario based - like a
customer wants to do X, which one of these services/configurations would make
the most sense given their needs for high durability/reliability/cost
saving/whatever.

Are certifications a perfect way to judge someone's competence? definitely
not, but at least in the case of that certificate I think it'd be hard to pass
the exam without having at least some decent knowledge of which AWS services
are the best to use in different business situations.

------
truth_seeker
Doing the certificate isn't bad at all. It gets you informed about many things
in disciplined way. But preferring the candidate during the interview based on
just certificate is plain stupid.

------
somurzakov
it depends, some vendor certificates are highly valued and signal your
expertise, for example CCNP/CCIE. Cisco does a pretty good job here

------
znpy
Meh, another piece of trash writing.

I literally wrote a longer comment and erased it three times... Meh, don't
bother getting certified if you can't see the value of it.

Some certs are more useful than other, of course, my experience getting
certified in Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL - RHCSA) was immensely positive
though: I was forced to do a thorough learning and to level up under many
aspects. I'm using a lot of that knowledge everyday even though I don't always
use RHEL anymore. And for the ROI... It has paid itself almost immediately and
with very good interest.

