
Web browsers need to stop. Enough is enough - pabs3
https://drewdevault.com/2020/08/13/Web-browsers-need-to-stop.html
======
blub
This is a vicious cycle of Google pushing new APIs to cement their grip on the
Web and the web developers chasing fads to reduce their permanent sense of
inferiority compared to native developers.

You can see that this is the case when you look at Safari which tried to limit
features. It's arguable whether that's because Apple limits the best APIs to
native apps, or those features don't make sense or because of a combination of
the two. But it's undeniable that web developers mercilessly criticized Apple
and relentlessly put pressure on them to keep adding all sorts of nonsense to
the browser. Ironically this is why today Safari has a partially negative
reputation, which the author seems to be unaware of.

To put it bluntly, the web as shaped by these two forces is fucked. There is
no one that matters which still cares about the idea of a user-focused,
privacy-respecting web. There's too much money to be made in an ad and
tracking laden, kitchen sink APIs web.

~~~
ecf
> to reduce their permanent sense of inferiority compared to native
> developers.

On the contrary, you make it seem like native developers all have a
superiority complex.

The world of already filled with people wanting to divide us, can we please
not try to ostracize one group of developers?

------
lolsal
From the article/rant:

> Safari is a joke.

Why? I use it daily as my primary browser. I am a software developer.

Anytime I enter a discussion about this, I get a lot of responses that are
_completely irrelevant to me_ about plugins or ... rendering? or whatever
other stuff I honestly can't even remember. None of that stuff matters to me.
Safari is a great browser - it's simple, fast, and the only annoying thing
about it is there are sites that will display modals saying I should use a
modern browser like Chrome. Get real.

If you dismiss Safari as a 'real' browser, your opinion loses credibility to
me. I honestly wonder if you've ever used it, or are hopping on some bandwagon
about it.

~~~
SergeAx
The problem with Safari from the web developer viewpoint is that it constantly
doing something different. There was a horrible time back in early 200x years
when we needed to check our HTML and CSS in all the browsers. Today this is
mostly over: 99% of layout and scrips are behaving the same in Chrome, Mozilla
and both Microsoft IE and Edge. Except for Safari. It is especially annoying
for devs working on Linux or Windows machines: we need to have a separate Mac
machine to debug Safari issues, and it is twice annoying to be forced to deal
with MacOS/Apple special ways of implementing UI/UX.

~~~
lolsal
You helped illustrate my point though - I don't care at all what you have to
do to do your job as a user using a browser. Sort of like how I don't care
about how the engine in a Subaru works compared to the engine in a Honda.

------
galonk
The argument that browsers should stop trying to become an OS on top of the OS
(e.g. webUSB) deserves better than this overly emotional rant.

The browser that has been holding the line in this respect, Safari, is
dismissed without explanation.

~~~
m463
Mobile safari has intimate links into the OS, intercepting links and sending
them to apps, and no real ability to filter content.

(content blockers are opt-out - and you have no ability to even know what is
loading)

~~~
sthnblllII
Browsers should be linked to the OS. The problem is that Google is trying to
replace your OS with Chrome so they can track everything you do. Apple has
resisted implementing a lot of bad stuff Google is trying to push, and made
serious, if insufficient, attempts to stop tracking.

------
colesantiago
> Enough is enough.

What I don't like about this post is too much emotion, not much action.

> If you’re a Google engineer who is still working on AMP, you are a disgrace
> to your field.

Really? Career shaming? That's very low of the author to do. Why are they a
disgrace?

~~~
blub
Silicon Valley is a really nice club with zero consequences for those that
have been screwing up the internet and online privacy for decades. Therefore I
don't think it's appropriate to now complain that somebody's calling these
people a disgrace to their field.

Recently we learned on HN of the revolving door between Mozilla and Facebook,
straight from the mouths of former Mozilla/current Facebook employees. They
were even proud of helping the people that were recently let go by Mozilla
with jobs at Facebook, as if it were totally normal to switch from privacy and
open web defender to privacy and open web villain. I mean it _is_ totally
normal apparently.

And really, I think that the moment of shame those people will feel at being
called a disgrace, if they're even capable of feeling that any more will go
away latest at the time that their fat paycheck hits their bank accounts. To
be fair, they probably don't even read HN, Drew's blog or give a crap about
any of this.

~~~
type0
Speaking of Web Browsers, I won't be surprised if FB introduces their own
browser, this could potentially be so much more dystopian than Chrome it's
scary that's a possibility. Chrome is already de facto mandated by some
government agencies across the globe by virtue of that their authentication
doesn't work in other browsers (not even Chromium in some cases).

~~~
AndrewThrowaway
In a way they already have:

[https://www.stateofdigital.com/facebook-browser-biggest-
brow...](https://www.stateofdigital.com/facebook-browser-biggest-browser-
ignore/)

------
mark_l_watson
I would argue against the comment in the article that Safari is a joke.

It is a fair criticism of Apple that they limit new experimental features to
promote native apps, but looking at this a user perspective (OK, just my
perspective) is that I want functional web apps that perform a service (good
examples our the web interfaces for ProtonMail, FastMail, and Gmail) for use
cases that truly need a web app, but for most "content centric" web sites I
want great content and pleasant looking layout - things that can be achieved
with HTML and CSS.

To continue my little rant, the noise to signal ratio is getting so bad on the
web that I now try to find people who really have something useful to say
(Ryan Holiday, Azeem Azar, Matt Taibi) and pay for content.

I think tech like WASM is cool, but its proper use cases are few and far
between.

------
Justsignedup
What I dislike about these rants:

\- the web is technically open but the browsers are the gatekeepers.

\- browsers are FUCKING HARD to build. Very very hard. So many details. And
you are the #1 target for malicious hackers.

\- Rewriting the renderer for things like Firefox Quantum takes a lot of work,
because every freaken webpage has to work on firefox. Every single one ever.
That has been a HUGE challenge.

So at the end, yeah, lots of companies are trying to make money making a
browser that everyone else (especially google) is giving away for free. So of
course they are gonna try to do anything in their power to make money. Of
course Mozilla is gonna start positioning themselves as the "privacy focused"
browser and sell a VPN. The list goes on.

The question is: What can we do differently?

------
tibbydudeza
Chrome and it's bastard stepchildren like Electron is an OS upon themselves
using Windows just as a glorified launcher and then sucking up all possible
computing resources to render web pages.

Older versions of I.E are nimble and fast compared to it.

------
adam_klein
Just curious, why the author thinks that Safari is a joke?

~~~
ralls_ebfe
Is safari free software? I can't seem to find it in f-droid.

~~~
xet7
Newest Safari is only available for macOS and iOS.

There used to be Windows version of Safari, but it is not updated anymore.

Safari is based on Webkit/KTHML/Konqueror source code, some of the source code
is public and has been contributed back from Apple to Webkit. But full source
code of Safari is not public.

------
sally1620
If Microsoft cannot stand up to Google, what do you expect from individual
developers?

Google has monopolized the power over the web. And soon they are going to use
it to their advantage.

~~~
bishalb
What do you mean soon? They have been doing so for years now.

------
kennethh
This is the same rant one said about windows many years ago, one should not
bloat and add more and more features. The answer is still the same, things
need to evolve if it gives meaning and give improved user experience and
value. It is only natural to bundle more and more functionality in a product.
Many years ago IE 6 won the browser war and was set in maintenance mode for
many years, but no progress made it easy for someone else to take over. First
Firefox and then later Chrome. I think the Chrome team have learned their
lessons and will continue to improve the product and make everyone else follow
as long as there is user demand for the features and it gives strategic sense
for Google.

~~~
boomlinde
_> The answer is still the same, things need to evolve if it gives meaning and
give improved user experience and value._

I don't think critics disagree with this notion. Rather they disagree that the
bloat gives meaning/improved user experience/value. It admits the existence of
incompetence and perverse incentives. The latter seems like a natural
consequence of profit-driven development when user satisfaction is only
loosely and partially tied to profit.

------
ben_utzer
We should start from the foundation and rewrite the specifications for CSS.
Once that is made more human, more rendering engines will pop up.

------
alpineidyll3
It's undeniable that someday chrome will end, and when it dies several
Manhattan projects worth of work will die with it, with very few positive side
effects besides V8.

But hey I guess serving ads is really important?

------
MaxBarraclough
Thought that name sounded familiar, and sure enough, this is the Drew DeVault
behind SourceHut, a project very much in keeping with the ideal of a web that
is both usable and technically simple.

------
michaelhoffman
> Mozilla just fired everyone relevant to focus on crap no one asked for like
> Pocket, and fad nonsense like a paid VPN service and virtual reality tech.

Not disagreeing with the rest of this, but I love Pocket.

~~~
grayhatter
I hate that something which only exists to data mine, or serve ads is enabled
(by default) in my web browser.

~~~
dgellow
Serious question: would you pay for an equivalent service that doesn't mine
your data?

~~~
grayhatter
If I actually believed that I was the customer, and not the product; yes _.

_ Obviously, that depends on a lot of things, but something that would
recommend, cache/archive, catalog things I find interesting/care about. I
would be willing to pay for something like it. I already pay for pandora, I'd
absolutely pay for something that expanded my knowledge base.

------
Havoc
This does ring true but stop everything isn’t the right answer either. Maybe
rather a slowdown and less niche stuff. I mean the whole point of a browser is
that it’s pretty generic and universal.

The trend to make everything an app annoys me more (ie each news service,
Reddit etc). Whole point of a browser is to avoid that.

------
pellaeon
This is definitely something that should be fixed by the vendor, but as a
(Firefox) user if you want a quick fix you can use
[https://github.com/pyllyukko/user.js](https://github.com/pyllyukko/user.js)

------
MavropaliasG
Lets hope that Falcon can serve as a good alternative in the future
[https://www.falkon.org/](https://www.falkon.org/)

------
imvetri
We can stop complaining about them and start creating an interface that
abstracts web APIs.

------
dsleno
Long live gopher space. Gopher://magical.gopher

------
the_hoser
Mozilla fired the XR team.

