
Loneliness Is Deadly - mmq
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2013/08/dangers_of_loneliness_social_isolation_is_deadlier_than_obesity.html
======
nemo1618
For the last week I've lived utterly alone. I didn't leave the house or
interact with other people at all, except to buy some groceries on the first
day. I didn't even have internet access until yesterday.

As a 15 year old I'm sure this would have sounded like a dream; I get to do
whatever I want, and there's no one around to bug me? Sign me up! And yet,
when I actually lived it, it felt more like a kind of personal hell. I became
depressed, anxious, and apathetic within just a few days. Turns out human
contact is a lot more important to me than I would have guessed. I won't be
repeating that experience any time soon if I can help it.

The scary thing is that there are many, many people who have lived this way
for years or even decades, and will probably continue to do so for the rest of
their lives (see [http://www.wizardchan.org](http://www.wizardchan.org)). I
can't imagine how a person could stay sane.

~~~
danieldk
_And yet, when I actually lived it, it felt more like a kind of personal
hell._

I have done two eight day meditation retreats in complete silence (except for
a short conversation with the mediation teacher once a day). The first time,
after about one day, I was 100% sure I was going to give up that day. I missed
sounds, listening to music, social interactions, etc. and ended up in a circle
that slowly turned into hell (as you described).

After that day, during my daily conversation, I told my teacher that I
couldn't bear it anymore and was going to leave. He kind and jokingly fashion
said (I am paraphrasing): "we'll prepare the refund". Somehow that clicked and
I realised that my mind had been running in circles, magnifying emotions of
boredness and craving step by step. After that I had an excellent retreat,
understanding a tiny bit better how the mind works.

We are social beings and social contacts are essential. However, silence can
also help us every now and then.

~~~
nisa
While I attended a retreat I somehow never felt lonely. I was around other
poeple all the time, we ate together and of course meditated together, despite
not sharing eye contact and staying silent. After the ten days on the last day
everyone was allowed to talk and it was a It is a very moving experience.
Everyone felt connected.

Not feeling connected, feeling isolated amongst other poeple, beeing unable to
make meaningful connections is lonelyness for me.

For me it really comes down to a mutual feeling of acceptance. I've spend some
nights with some punks, watching movies and going to town. We did not know us
before hand but I felt accepted not lonely. Meeting with other students from
my university? Felt lonely and disconnected. Your brain is a strange device...
or I am just having problems dealing with big egos and "alpha male" bullshit.

------
hkmurakami
_According to Cacioppo the key is in the quality, not the quantity of those
people. We just need several on whom we can depend and who depend on us in
return._

This really should be called the quality of our _relationships_ rather than
this so called "quality of people", whatever that means.

but more importantly...

 _In one study, Cacioppo measured brain activity during the sleep of lonely
and nonlonely people. Those who were lonely were far more prone to micro
awakenings, which suggest the brain is on alert for threats throughout the
night, perhaps just as earlier humans would have needed to be when separated
from their tribe._

I experienced exactly this during the worst period of depression a few years
ago. In a foreign country for work, I had many friendly colleagues but no one
whom I could truly trust and could lay out the whole truth with. During this
period, I would wake up at night 1 after going to sleep, ever night, without
fail. (I'd eventually have mental breakdowns every 2 months, until I finally
mustered the courage to resign, pack my bags, give away all my stuff, and
leave the country)

It was a brutal time in my life and every time I think back to it, I'm
thankful to be back home where I grew up amongst my closest friends.

~~~
Joe-Z
I've been going to a simliar phase as you and the author in the last year
(mentally I labeled it as "the loneliest year in my life (so far)"). My
solution, as yours and the author's, is also to go back where my home and my
friends are (this is still a month from now though). I pretty much had the
same problems too: meeting new people, having new colleagues and also do stuff
with them, but never feeling quite connected.

So I've been wondering lately what this has to say about my personality. Am I
just not ready yet to just leave what I call home now (and my friends and
family) and start somewhere else again (maybe for a really worthwhile job in a
cool city)? Or am I just the kind of person that is not cut out for doing this
kind of stuff? This uncertainty is also amplified by the fact that I have a
friend who is about the same age as me, mid-twenties, who just last year left
to live in L.A. and seems quite happy there.

Maybe you'd like to elaborate on how your life changed after you decided to go
back and if you think you will ever try to live somewhere else (wherever that
may be) again? I'd really appreciate it!

~~~
hkmurakami
Hey Joe, unfortunately I've only sporadically written about it on HN and on my
blog, but I'm in this weird limbo state where I want to spill all the beans
but I know that putting it on my blog would damage my professional future
(since I am in the business side of things these days where machisimo and
type-A ism is the norm). Not sure how best to communicate, but if you do see
this by chance, shoot me a email (it's in my HN profile) and we can chat :)

------
justanother
Much as I seem to recall this feeling from childhood through my early
twenties, surely I'm not the only one actively trying to avoid social
interaction later in life. My wife and I have charming friends that we visit
from time to time, and sometimes I attend business-related meetup.com events
and conferences, but as a general rule, we go for months at a time without
outside contact (I don't even bother with social networks), and are even
considering moving to the middle of the woods. It isn't that we aren't nice or
friendly, we'd just rather be left alone with our projects and animals.

Surely being a happy hermit isn't deadly; We find it quite gratifying.

~~~
bnegreve
Hum, the fact that you live "alone" with your wife _might_ make a little
difference :)

Quoting the article: _According to Cacioppo the key is in the quality, not the
quantity of those people. We just need several on whom we can depend and who
depend on us in return._

~~~
sliverstorm
Also, pets help fill that role, which your parent mentions having.

------
reinhardt
I don't really know what loneliness means, despite being more socially
isolated than most. Boredom, fear, hopelessness, existential angst, I get
them; loneliness, not so much. It's probably because I don't see social
interaction as an end in itself, only as a means to something else, be it
playing a game, solving a problem or having a debate. Someone on a forum wrote
something that was an "aha" moment for me: "Social interaction is mainly about
people stroking each other, the same way that you stroke a dog. The content of
the interaction is unimportant, most people just need to be stroked and to
stroke others". I guess people without such a need are less susceptible to
loneliness.

~~~
practicalpants
Until recently, I also never thought loneliness was something that applied to
me. I'm someone who experiences relatively long periods of isolation, whether
its hacking on a project, reading, or as others have mentioned just
interacting with co-workers or people you feel somewhat required to meet up
with... because they're someone you knew from college, someone from your
professional network, or a friend of friend, yet you don't really quite
connect with them. I went on like this for years, but I never felt bad about
it, or felt any sense of lack or nonfulfillment on a deeper level. FYI, mid
20's here.

But then I got a girlfriend, and soon after she moved in with me. She lived
with me for an entire year. Every day I'd wake up with the same person and go
to sleep with the same person. Anytime I wanted to go out and do something
where you wouldn't want to do it alone, like people watching at parks, the
beach, movies, new restaurants, road trips, new bars, etc., she was there and
we would do it. I took up some new hobbies. We vibed really well for the most
part, so lots of good and spontaneous interactions on a daily basis.

Then a couple months ago we broke up and she moved far away. Now I actually
experience loneliness. I can't just go back to the old way, and isolate myself
for a week at a time for some project or to learn a new technology.
Viscerally, my body can't put up with it. I used to sleep incredibly when she
was there. I could easily crawl into bed way before midnight or take naps
during the day. Now I'm up late reading stuff or working on something every
night, and I don't feel that great about it, physically. I have lost the
desire to continue any of the hobbies. I feel a constant subtle pressure like
something is wrong and I need to do something to fix it. It's not because I'm
butt-hurt about the breakup (it was welcome at the time), it's just not having
a person like that in your life anymore.

I think the only reason I was able to go on the way I did prior to the
cohabitation, was because I'd simply never experienced such raw, intimate
human connection before, like the kind that comes with living in the same one
bedroom apartment with an SO for a year. It felt like it awakened a truly
human need that perhaps had been long suppressed or I had rationalized a way
to keep a distance from.

At any rate, the experience will hopefully make it easier for me to find
another gal out there, now that I recognize, or rather "feel", the importance
of deeper human connections.

~~~
mercer
Heh, very recognizable.

I _do_ think you will acclimatize to being alone over time, and it gets easier
and perhaps almost back to 'before'. But I also agree that once you've had a
taste of good partnership, it changes your perspective permanently, and you
don't want to settle for 'before'.

------
pessimizer
"Manley was twice divorced. He had no children, no nieces or nephews. His
parents had both died: his mother in 2002, then his father in 2007. He had one
sister and one brother and neither lived nearby or visited much.

"Almost all of the recent photographs of him on his website appeared to be
'selfies.'

[...]

"He ate one meal a day, sometimes nothing at all, and had 'consistently
inconsistent' sleep habits. At one point, he experimented with staying awake
36 hours at a time, then sleeping for 12.

"He had a collection of 25 fedora hats, boasted about wearing the same pair of
$12 Wal-Mart shoes for 12 years and played a monthly game of dollar poker that
welcomed obscure variations of the game with names like 'Three Turds' and 'No
Peak.'

"He had a collection of more than 1,000 movies on VHS tape, along with a
computer database that would sort them by title, rating, year and genre. (He
had his own rating system for them, too. He only handed out 21 perfect '10'
scores over the years and his absolute favorite film was the 1986 adaptation
of 'Little Shop of Horrors.'"

[http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/23/tech/web/martin-manley-
suicide...](http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/23/tech/web/martin-manley-suicide-
website/?hpt=te_t1)

~~~
nilkn
To be fair, he insists on his site that he was not lonely or depressed. It
seems his motivation for suicide was that he found the idea of growing old and
incapacitated to be the scariest thing he'd ever imagined, and he wanted to
end his life before that happened, while he was still able to do so. He
mentions he'd planned this out since he was young, but didn't put a date on it
until a year or so before he committed suicide.

------
JoeAltmaier
You can be married and lonely; one of 6 kids and lonely; part of a team and
lonely.

But consider: meaningful relationships take effort from everybody, including
you. All the advice about learning to trust first, then you can trust others,
etc, is right on target here.

~~~
rickenharp
But sometimes (at least in my case) it seems that even if you put in all that
effort, most of it just vanishes into some kind of void. You try to stay in
touch with people, but no matter what you do, they keep drifting away. Which
then leads to thinking "Why even bother putting in the energy, if I'm the only
one trying".

It's a vicious cycle.

~~~
LogicX
Where do you live?

I found living in the northeast, USA -- so many were so focused on things they
were told to do: Get education, work hard to start your career... that
friendship building was not part of the equation.

Very different after I moved to Myrtle Beach, SC last year. 'Southern
Hospitality' also helps: Its infectious. And the fact there are so many
transplants from the North that everyone is looking to make new friends.

~~~
rickenharp
I live in Germany. And beeing a freelance developer, I get to hop around the
country quite a bit, switching cities every few months.

What I find interesting is, that I have less of this feeling when I'm in the
south here as well (Bavaria). It's easier to connect there. There must be
something about the south.

~~~
speeder
Here in Brazil, that is in the south hemisphere, people are nicer as you move
north, toward the equator.

Or southmost state instead is famous for having some xenophobic people,
separatist movements, and triggering a huge civil war in the past.my guess is
that in colder environments people are very distrustful of newcomers because
they are a new risk in a already risky environment

~~~
dhughes
Could it be culture?

I used to know a girl (surname Britz) from Porto Alegre and her family was of
German descent and seemed like she had no Brazilian features from what I could
see.

When I see pictures and video of people in Rio it's like different country.

~~~
kroger
Brazil is such a big and diverse country that any state seems like a different
country. We have influence from Portugal, Holland [1], France, Germany, Italy,
Africa, Japan and many other places. Some would argue that there's no such
thing as a "Brazilian feature". That's one of the reasons I always have
trouble filling the "race" form when I travel.

[1] The Dutch actually invaded Brazil for a few years:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Brazil](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Brazil)

------
Claudus
I think this is why some very high iq people aren't more productive... it's
not easy to find high quality relationships.

~~~
salemh
One can have too high of expectations of social interactions. I find this
leads to angst.

It's ok if this or that person is "only" a drinking after work friend, or
this/that person is "only" a weekend friend, etc. While difficult, it is
important to expand your social circle if you do not feel fulfilled. And, that
can be difficult, but necessary.

~~~
dclowd9901
Indeed; I feel like potential is always there to expand comradrey into a
proper friendship -- it's up to the individual to put his or herself on the
table. Definitely not an easy thing to do. The rejection from such a measure
is akin to romantic rejection.

------
awjr
One thing I recently discovered when moving to a new area is
[http://www.meetup.com](http://www.meetup.com) . It works on so many levels,
both socially and work related.

Not sure it's for everyone as it can be hard initially going to a place to
meet a group of strangers, but then you have to realise, they really want you
there. You're key to their continued existence. It works both ways.

~~~
paulhauggis
+1 for this. I moved to a new city about 5 years ago (100 miles from my home
town) and I now have a whole new group of friends that I met on meetup.com.

------
uladzislau
I believe that it depends on the location much. People in some places are more
easy going and welcoming to strangers while in other places they are very
closed and cold. Sometimes what it takes to solve the loneliness problem is to
move to different region.

------
liquidcool
As someone traveling abroad solo for 8 months, [1] I can relate. I had
romanticized such travel for years, in part because of the connections I'd
seen travelers make. However, I was basing a lot of this on people who studied
abroad when they were half my age. Or at least working in an office. If you're
working from home, it's way harder, even if you attend every expat meetup
there is. As others have said, a lot of the connections there are superficial,
or "professional," which is often the same thing. Dating helps, but the pool
is rather limited if you're not fluent in the local language, or they know
you're a short timer.

Another misconception is that traveling solo takes you out of your shell, and
maybe I'm wasn't that introverted to begin with, but I don't feel any more
extroverted. I was always comfortable chatting with people at a tech function
or dinner party, but a generic cocktail mixer in a bar feels like hitting any
meat market in any city, and it's still not something I'm comfortable with.

1\. Details for the curious: [http://philip.yurchuk.com/2012/12/07/basically-
im-just-gonna...](http://philip.yurchuk.com/2012/12/07/basically-im-just-
gonna-walk-the-earth/)

------
morgante
Definitely falling victim to this. And I think making a little money makes it
even harder... when the fight/flight kicks in I flee to another country,
thinking I'll somehow be happy there, but end up even more lonely.

------
einhverfr
One of the interesting opportunities there is IMO in this area is to recognize
that what we have done with our anti-poverty programs, in liberating people
from family and community, is as oppressive as anything we have solved. I
think there is a major opportunity to sit down and help rework charity and
government programs so that they help with this issue.

We are social animals and disrupting this I think is something which causes
all manner of problems from inner city violence and gangs to founder suicides.
If we start changing our thinking about the problems we are solving, and start
thinking about households and communities, and helping these thrive, then I
think those solutions can be monetized just as much as the so-called "social"
apps, which aren't really social at all in the same way.

------
polskibus
What about starting a family? Of course you shouldn't do it just because you
feel lonely from time to time, but if you need strong social bonds, then why
not? Instead of analysing the shit out of the problem, just do what people
have been doing for ages.

~~~
philwelch
If you have kids just so you have someone who will be around and like you,
you're not going to have a good time when they become teenagers.

~~~
polskibus
I think I was misunderstood. If someone needs others around him then he should
work towards fulfilling that need. In most cases he won't be able to somehow
expell that need from his ego.

------
fractalsea
I can relate with the author's experience of moving to a new city, knowing no
one. A year ago I moved from England to Sydney. Like the author, I also went
heavily out of my way to take part in social activities that would help me
meet like-minded people.

What she says is true: it is so hard to build up a social circle from scratch
that way, while also working a full-time job. Seeing the same people once
every couple of weeks is not enough. There were a number nights where I felt
very lonely. It really made me realise how easy it is making friends through
school/work/housemates/mutual friends.

I lived in share houses as a means to meeting people, but it is complete
potluck who you end up with. The first house I lived in was with people who
were very different to me, so after a few months I left. I finally found a
house with a decent set of people dropping by, however I always felt like I
was on the fringe of the group -- they had all been friends for years.

I believe another problem is the fact that even between countries like Britain
and Australia (and even cities within those countries) there are subtle
differences between the types of people in each place. These small differences
from what I was used to also contributed to my feelings of isolation.

For these reasons, countries like India -- where people tend to live in much
closer proximity -- really appeal to me. In most Western countries we have a
very isolationist culture, i.e. big fences, not knowing your neighbours etc.
and I think this makes loneliness more of a problem on quite a deep level in
society. Having said that, the initial language barrier would make things hard
in countries such as India.

Having said all that, I don't think that these feelings of loneliness were
particularly serious in my case. I am a melancholic person, but pretty far
from being depressed. I tend to think of these experiences as "character
building" \-- this puts it in quite a positive light for me. If I really am
unhappy with a situation, then I will work towards doing something about it,
which makes me feel more positive as I look towards the future. So I have my
ways of dealing with this, but I can sympathise with anyone who has these
issues, and understand how it can very easily become a serious problem --
given the right ingredients.

~~~
mercer
I think a big problem lies in the individualist approach combined with a
reserved attitude toward others. When you start a 'new life' in a new place
where you cannot rely on massive amounts of free time, or structured
'community' (university, high school, church), you have to find shortcuts to
making 'significant' connections.

I've done okay on that front, having moved to a completely new place very
often in my life. I find that one of the secrets is being extra honest, and
extra open, instead of waiting for 'organic' moments of connection. These
moments happen if you have loads of time to spend with people. If you don't
have the time, too much can happen to get in the way of making such a
connection before it is too late.

I rather like this quote in the context. Can't remember who wrote it:

"We waste so much energy trying to cover up who we are when beneath every
attitude is the want to be loved, and beneath every anger is a wound to be
healed and beneath every sadness is the fear that there will not be enough
time.

When we hesitate in being direct, we unknowingly slip something on, some added
layer of protection that keeps us from feeling the world, and often that thin
covering is the beginning of a loneliness which, if not put down, diminishes
our chances of joy.

It’s like wearing gloves every time we touch something, and then, forgetting
we chose to put them on, we complain that nothing feels quite real. Our
challenge each day is not to get dressed to face the world but to unglove
ourselves so that the doorknob feels cold and the car handle feels wet and the
kiss goodbye feels like the lips of another being, soft and unrepeatable."

------
EGreg
I think people have needs (such as being loved and understood, by people that
they love and understand, fulfilling their ambitions, etc.) and if they aren't
surrounded by others who satisfy those needs then they feel lonely, even if
there are lots of people who would be with them.

So loneliness may be about taking are of our desires and needs. Sometimes it
actually is borne out of what society has conditioned us to believe and to
want.

------
johnchristopher
Isn't what the author is descibing known as homesickness ? Not denying the
feelings of isolation he is experiencing but loneliness in your usual
environment and loneliness in new environment doesn't seem the same to me.

------
christianc750
I've actually just moved to NYC and I'm still feeling lonely. It takes a long
time for me to turn an acquaintance into a friendship and I'm really not sure
the best course of action to take, help?

~~~
billpaetzke
I recently moved there, too. What I did was go to social meetups (meetup.com)
every evening for two weeks until I clicked with someone. That person hangs
out a lot with a co-worker, with whom I also clicked. And we all happened to
live within a few blocks of each other (gotta love NYC for that). Now we're
three best bros and all go out at least twice a week.

Also I slammed OkCupid and Tinder for dates. I think I went on 15 first dates
my first month here--some back-to-back on the weekend. Beware though: hitting
the dating scene hard is superficial social interaction until you start seeing
the same person repeatedly.

~~~
AznHisoka
did you get lucky with any of those dates? :P

------
hcarvalhoalves
It's actually good to be alone when you're out there, in contact with nature
and with plenty of occupation. Shutting yourself inside your house and
watching TV is another story.

------
aaron695
This I believe is a good reason why not to allow employees to work from home
or even remotely for extended periods.

Remote you could mitigate issues by making sure they go to shared offices
where people tend to stay a while.

This isn't the best article in the world on the issue, but it certainly needs
looking into.

~~~
__--__
I'm an introvert. Working from home and remotely for extended periods is
actually good for me, psychologically. I don't rely on work for my social
interaction. I also worked with a remote employee who was very, very
extroverted. He lived with his family, had several video gaming leagues and
several in-person RPG groups going all at the same time. Oh, and he also had a
dog and a cat.

I guess the moral of the story is, prescribing general office policies under
the assumption any work from home employee is a potential suicide risk is
misguided. People are responsible for looking after their own mental health,
not the company.

------
baali
Just a few days back I saw this short in same lines "The Innovation of
Loneliness" [http://vimeo.com/70534716](http://vimeo.com/70534716)

------
asdkl234890
Why is this news? Seriously, haven't we known that social isolation results in
depression since.... for ever?

------
djhworld
I moved to London 3 years ago and I'm still lonely, I've not really made a
friend here.

------
lutusp
"If you really want to be lonely, get married." \- Gloria Steinem.

~~~
commanda
For what it's worth, Gloria Steinem did not marry until she was 66 years old.

~~~
lutusp
That's interesting, didn't know that. It might be interesting to hear her
personal reflections on that choice.

------
mera
one of the main problem i felt is that once you become more lonely, you
ability to socially interact with people reduces.

------
unz
This is a huge opportunity for startups.

Online dating is still not as successful it could be because all data is not
used. Everyone has smartphones, partners could be matched up based on the
generated sensor data. There's also the low cost gene sequencing services,
daters could be matched up using it.

The friendship problem cannot be tackled the same way. Women might be more
open to actively seeking new platonic friendships in dating service kind of
fashion, but they are less likely to be lonely anyway.

To solve the male loneliness problem would require focusing men around an
issue. Men build good friendships over shared forced activities (school, work,
military, political meetups, dinners with their wives's friends husbands).

To solve the loney man issue requires more of the same. Greater efficiencies
in organizing economic/volunteery groups.

Crowdsourcing and crowdfunding is the answer here. Sites like mechanical turk
and kickstarter with better social networking features, and finding ways to
physically get people meeting together. For example, a component of
kickstarter campaign might require doing a thousand man march in the capital
city. Part of a mechanical turk task would require holding a protest. Similar
ideas to get people excited about a shared cause meeting up at the same place.

Also, governments should consider creating an army units for elderly or
otherwise lonely men. If your old and you're wife/husband died, you should be
able to join the army to help in some capacity, even sitting at a desk at the
barracks and filling in mechanical turk tasks.

~~~
unoti
I just moved to San Francisco a year ago. I know no one any more since I quit
my last job to do my own business. I've been feeling really lonely, so I
googled "finding friends in San Francisco." This lead me to Craigslist, and
soon I was reading ads in the strictly platonic section where men are looking
for other men to hike shirtless together. Hiking is cool, but it didn't take
me long to realize this wasn't really what I was looking for.

So I've been scouring Meetup, and I've been having a lot of trouble finding
things there, too. Here I live in the East Bay, literally I'm at the most
ideal place on Earth for finding the kind of people I'm interested in, and
struggling. The problem is me, of course! But still, there is opportunity here
for the right kind of startup or community.

~~~
mahyarm
[https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/SFredditors](https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/SFredditors)
& [http://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea](http://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea) is pretty
friendly, check it out! There is also
[http://sf.funcheap.com/](http://sf.funcheap.com/) . There are also singular
startup & tech industry events and such that pop up all the time in SF.
Usually although I find those through friends since I'm not actively looking,
there is probably some directory website having it. Most of them seem to be
scheduled through eventbrite, so you can just look at the eventbrite directory
here:
[https://www.eventbrite.com/directory](https://www.eventbrite.com/directory)

~~~
unoti
Hey thanks for taking the time to post these amazingly great resources. I
really appreciate it!

------
mumbi
Oregon, huh? I suggest you get a medical marijuana license and meet some
people at the shops. Instant connection when you're smoking.

