
Ask HN: How do those eMMC Windows laptops work? - _bxg1
I was just shopping around for a low-end Windows laptop and discovered a new trend: machines that have 64gb or 128gb internal storage on &quot;eMMC&quot;, which research suggests is similar to what&#x27;s used in phones, and then they have a micro SD card slot for expansion (also like phones).<p>I take it the OS lives on the eMMC and not something even weirder like a ROM chip? Do user programs and files go there too or can they only go on the SD? How does it all affect things like partitioning?<p>Presumably this is a response to the Chromebook-pocalypse but it still feels very strange and mysterious to me for now
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swiley
I bought one and used it for a year in college and ran a custom Linux ramdisk
OS with a few different chroots on the EMMC. A lot of these things can’t
really run Windows (I never tried but I’m told they can boot into the copy
they ship with a few times but probably don’t last and certainly can’t
update.) setting up Linux on them requires a lot of care (I had to build a
custom kernel to get graphics on mine to work at all.) It’s better to think of
them like a weird embedded device that happens to be mostly compatible with
desktop computers.

Yes it’s EMMC (think SDcard but without a socket, it’s not super fast) and
most OSes let you use that as a block device (and most of the firmware will
let you boot from it.) Mine had an SDcard socket that I used for really big
stuff (anything closed source, any builds so I didn’t burn the EMMC out, and
anything I needed to run in wine.)

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_bxg1
> A lot of these things can’t really run Windows (I never tried but I’m told
> they can boot into the copy they ship with a few times but probably don’t
> last and certainly can’t update.)

You mean just because there isn't enough space? Some of them go up to 64gb or
even 128gb, but a lack of OS updates would be a non-starter.

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stefan_
eMMC is just another name for soldered on flash storage. Its no different than
a SSD.

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steve19
The interface is slower.

[https://www.howtogeek.com/196541/emmc-vs.-ssd-not-all-
solid-...](https://www.howtogeek.com/196541/emmc-vs.-ssd-not-all-solid-state-
storage-is-equal/)

~~~
waspleg
The school system I work for has thousands of devices with these. They're
basically like an SD card for a camera soldered to the board. They do not have
the wear leveling and other shit a real SSD has.

They're slow, (comparatively) unreliable and small. Because they're on the
board a bad one means a new mobo which is generally not cost effective so it's
done. I hate them and the cheap shitty hardware that they come with.

I'd like to point out that these came before Chromebooks but Chromebooks are
also using them because they use the same shitty hardware as the cheapest
Windows devices.

~~~
Marsymars
Even high-end, well-regarded Chromebooks use eMMC storage - e.g. the “base”
$1k+ Pixelbook models.

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kn0where
It shows up to the PC just like any hard drive.

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skocznymroczny
It's not bad. It's slower than SSD, but much faster than a HDD.

The main issue is limited storage space. Some low-end laptops sell with 32GB
space, and it's so low, you can't even update Windows properly on that one.
Having at least 64GB gives you some breathing room.

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WheelsAtLarge
I bought a very cheap one with 32 gigs a few years ago. I love it. It's fast ,
light and runs windows 10. It's good for email and browser stuff. My problem
now is that i can't update the OS. It doesn't have enough memory. It still
functions but i run the risk of not getting the security updates. It gave me
about 3 years of great use. I would definitely buy another one.

~~~
_bxg1
32GB definitely seems cramped for Windows. 64GB would probably be safe going
forward for at least OS updates

~~~
Koshkin
It does not cease to amaze me how bloated Windows is (compared to any Linux
out there, anyway), and how it gets more bloated with each update.

~~~
Fr0styMatt88
The bloat in Windows is an interesting issue. I put together Windows OS images
and a freshly-installed, before-updates Windows 10 image might be around 2
gigs (maybe a bit more or less, I’m going from memory here). Granted, a Linux
distro may hit that size with a lot more preinstalled software, but I haven’t
paid much attention.

Windows starts bloating when you apply updates. It keeps a lot around to
facilitate rolling back updates if needed; this gets cleaned up over time but
it can be an issue on a small disk. There’s ways to get the size back down
(while sacrificing the ability to roll back updates that you’ve applied), but
you don’t regain all the space.

I get the feeling the Windows Update mechanism is a large legacy mess that is
stuck having to account for corner-cases that have built up over time.
Microsoft are improving it; I think it’s just a really big engineering task
that they’re having to slowly work through. I vaguely remember something about
the way Windows handles overwriting open files in-place which makes this
worse, but I can’t remember the specifics off the top of my head.

~~~
_bxg1
> I get the feeling the Windows Update mechanism is a large legacy mess that
> is stuck having to account for corner-cases that have built up over time.

I get the feeling that Windows itself is a large legacy mess that is stuck
having to account for corner-cases that have built up over time. Of course
this facilitates its impressive degree of backwards-compatibility (one of its
most desirable features), but still.

~~~
Fr0styMatt88
Every time I try to play a game that I paid for on iOS that no longer works
because Apple doesn't care about backwards compatibility, I'm reminded of how
thankful I am for Microsoft's efforts here.

I really think the amount they've improved Windows under-the-hood over time is
impressive, especially taking into account the constraints they've had to work
within.

On a related (though somewhat tangential) note I must say that I think MS
tying WinRT (which as I understand it is the clean rewrite of the Windows API)
to the Microsoft Store initially was a massive mistake. I still don't have a
clear, confident impression of where I can or should use WinRT, even after all
these years.

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rektide
You are super overthinking this. It's a lower tech ssd. It's nand storage just
like a sata ssd would be. It's rw just the same.

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equalunique
In the mid-2000s I once tried installing Windows XP to a 16GB eMMC drive that
was in a PCI slot adapter on my main PC. It did install successfully, just as
it would on a normal hard drive. It did boot. The only problem (besides it
being only 16GB) is it took forever. The PCI slot transfer speeds were slow.
The eMMC card itself was slow. I can't recommend doing it, but it does work.

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minieggs
Picked up an Asus E203MA last month. I treat the eMMC just like I would any
SSD/HDD and slap Arch on it all the same.

Any specifics you care to know?

I wouldn’t expect the heavier windows managers (and Windows) to perform at an
acceptable level. Gnome sure didn’t. Tiling windows managers and mate/xfce
have been great. It handles light web dev pretty fair as well.

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juangacovas
I bought a HP stream with 128GB internal storage for 199 € and it's serving me
well because of weight (1 kg) and purpose (writing, connect to remote servers
via ssh). Being a Celeron you can't do fancy things but it's ok. You can
extend the storage capacity with microSD cards.

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countername
funny, I could rescue an small laptop with 32GB eMMC and 2GB RAM from been
thrown away just a day ago

i did a fresh win 10 install and it works amazing fast but I have just around
5 gigs left after updating and i want to work with linux as well

does somebody has some tips for slim it down and get the most out of it?

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Anarch157a
Can it boot from the microSD card or USB? If it can, you can install Linux on
a card or USB Drive just like you do on a HDD or SSD.

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countername
yeah, it can! thanks!

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shrubble
If you are careful/lucky, some of them have an unused SATA port and then you
can add a separate SSD to it.

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papermachete
Windows has bad filesystem support, let alone trying to efficiently run eMMC.
f2fs has many advantages.

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sys_64738
It’s very slow. Think of SD RaM access speed. Avoid.

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neilalexander
Slower than a typical SSD maybe, but 400MB/s isn’t “slow” by any means - not
compared to a spinning hard disk which is probably maxing out at 100-125MB/s
if you’re lucky.

