

The Fridge (YC S10) Takes The Privacy Headaches Out Of Sharing - daniel_levine
http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/23/the-fridge-facebook-sharing/

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cmelbye
Another one of "these" sites? If I want to share photos with a small group of
people, I'll upload them to a Facebook album and specify the exact names that
should see them. If I want to send a message to them, I'll use email, Facebook
messages, Twitter DMs, or SMS. I don't need yet another site that friends need
to learn about, sign up for, etc before it's actually useful.

~~~
kordless
Yup. From 2003 to 2007, I spent an enormous amount of brainpower thinking
about different ways to share photos. In the near term, I failed at it.

Here's what I learned:

1\. your everyday photo taker won't pay for using a photo sharing site

2\. little revenue means assets are measured in the number of users

3\. viral adoption is needed to get to a large number of users

4\. certain features limit viral adoption

5\. people hardly ever upload private photos

6\. private photos are only shared with a handful of people

7\. photos suck up bandwidth and hard drive space like none other

8\. there are lots of other photo sharing competitors

Based on all this and about a 100 other observation points (like nobody was
going to acquire the current offering) I considered doing a simple offering
called FotoFluff. The idea was to create a 'fluff', a collection of photos,
and then assign three URLs to it. One to view, one to allow adding, and one to
allow edit/delete. You'd only need the URL to do stuff to it, so you could IM
it around, or post it in public if you dared. Propegation and commenting was
left to the linking sites. Viewing privacy was only as good as the users kept
the URL to themselves. Display of the photos was all on one page, with an API
to do more if you wanted. Like Imgur, without logins. Delete stuff that never
got viewed, or was older than X many days.

I just don't think I'd try this again. I'd say it's a damn tough nut to crack.

------
malloreon
I'm confused. The article suggests the site is for private groups of people to
share things among themselves, free from privacy concerns.

Then the cofounder is referenced (not quoted) saying their goal is to create a
social graph across groups by interest.

To me that sounds like a contradiction. How is this not selling users on
privacy at the outset while intending to "convince" them down the road that
privacy was never what they wanted?

~~~
austinchang
It isn't actually a contraction because people create groups or join groups
based on a real relationship whether a common interest, common event, or
common context. Each group is silo'd from the others and if you aren't in any
other groups you won't know about them.

The connections between groups only happens when people you get to know in one
group start to build a real relationship that expands outside of that current
group's context and lead to the creation of another group whether for another
shared interest, or temporary event.

As people create more and more of these groups and these "mini-Facebooks"
start to overlap users a new social graph starts to take shape not based on a
1 to 1 friend request but on real relationships, topics, and events.

~~~
riffer
That's a good explanation of what your startup is, and I wish you the best of
luck, but you did not answer his question.

~~~
austinchang
We aren't changing any privacy settings with a bait and switch approach but in
fact every group that someone is part of is something they either were invited
to and joined explicitly or started themselves and invited others. every group
is still private and you only know about the groups that you are in.

As more of these groups are formed we aren't exposing what groups you are in
to other people joining. In fact other people joining don't know who else is
on the platform unless they are in a group with them.

So this social graph that is being built isn't based on friend requests that
have little inherent value but on the different groups you are part of that
are based on specific relationships.

~~~
studer
So what's your definition of "social graph"? In what way is "my list of my
group subscriptions" a social graph? Is there a bigger graph? Who has access
to that?

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panic
I'm glad somebody went and did this. Fundamentally, humans structure their
social relationships in terms of groups, though the groups may not have names
or be disjoint, and membership may not be binary. I think you guys are on the
right track.

The biggest question I have is, how do you get people into your site in the
first place? I would love to use The Fridge, but if my friends don't, what's
the point?

~~~
austinchang
Exactly and thanks for the feedback!

We have tried to make it super easy to start and join a Fridge. Just enter
your email to create a group. To invite folks send them the group invite URL.
All they have to do to join that group is click on it and enter their email
and create a password. Hopefully this is a first step in making it dead simple
to bring folks in to join or crate any group that needs a bit more privacy or
is just a temporary network around an event so you don't have to friend people
on facebook.

~~~
tomjen3
Three things:

1) Where is the link to the tour of the the fridge? I can't seem to find it.

2) Is there an RSS feed? Otherwise I will just forget to go there

3) Why didn't you make this 4 years ago?

~~~
jacquesm
(3) is nonsense.

You could ask that same question about anything ever created.

~~~
lionhearted
> (3) is nonsense. You could ask that same question about anything ever
> created.

He wasn't being literal - he was saying, "This seems awesome and I wish I had
this four years ago." Is this an American thing? I see it all the time in the
States, but after thinking about it I don't think I saw it in Europe or Asia.

~~~
jacquesm
/me bashes head against wall. Yes, of course, you're right, I should have seen
that. Thanks!

------
johngalt
If someone besides me is the gatekeeper to the group, then how is this helping
privacy issues? Seems like I would be losing control not gaining it.

It does make sense to classify relationships and share based on those
classifications, but I bet there is a better way.

~~~
amalcon
If you don't trust someone to be the gatekeeper of the group, you logically
should not trust them to view your information at all: they could always copy
it and forward it on to other parties.

Maybe there's a difference if you do not trust their competence, rather than
their intentions. You have recourse there, though: it's easier to test (or
improve) someone's competence than to do the same for someone's intentions.

------
ars
Suggestion:

Place a demo group on the home page. It's very hard to figure out what this
site does from the minimal home page.

Make a single click demo group with full functionality, (but reset it every
hour or so to avoid it collecting too much spam). Or even better, set a
cookie, and new users will always get a fresh demo, which those with a cookie
will be able to keep modifying their private demo for a while.

~~~
austinchang
That is a great suggestion and we just hacked one together. When someone wants
to leave the demo group (too much spam or tired of the group) anyone can leave
a group in Group settings and click leave group.

Thanks for the suggestion!

~~~
ars
You should make the demo group visible without needing to register first.

Or supply a demo email address.

------
todayiamme
I wonder how they are generating value? The funny thing is that it appears the
group based social network idea is in the air right now, and there was even a
post on HN by someone trying to make something rather similar (see:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1579400> ). Unless they move in first and
fast this space will get really crowded.

They could make something that exploits their social graph, kinda like
Aardvark, but that again is something really long term. So, what is their
value proposition in making users join _right now_?

~~~
austinchang
That is the cat and mouse problem we are trying to solve. For private networks
what is the immediate value if no one is on it?

We have tried to make the sign up and group creation as simple as possible so
any event or social gathering can be another use for the fridge. A crazy frat
party, potluck dinner, family vacation. anything where you have a temporary
social network for people to come together around, start socializing and if it
dies ok. but if you make a few new relationships and create a new group or two
with them that is the goal...

We know we need better tools to bring people in. But we are noticing once
people are in with a few friends and groups they love our platform.

~~~
mikegioia
Why wouldn't I just make a Facebook event?

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pwim
Privacy and sharing are opposites of each other.

When you share something on the internet, you are relinquishing control of it.
Someone can always manually redistribute content you create (for instance,
saving a photo you share with them). As such, you should never put content on
the internet you never want being made public.

~~~
metamemetics
I disagree. Privacy concerns are not over intentional sharing but over
unintentional sharing.

Unintentional sharing on facebook is solely caused by its horrendous
interface. The interface makes it too hard to precisely determine what is
being shared to whom. Given that cognitive faculties and time are limited
resources, the average user will not have time to decipher facebook's sharing
settings. The result is they have a high likelihood of unintentionally sharing
information, resulting in privacy concerns.

In real life, if I tell something to a trusted former high school friend
living in a different state, I can assume at over 98% confidence that my boss
at work will never know the content of the conversation. They are two
completely distinct social circles, or groups of friends. The channel of
communication is different for different groups of friends. This is how real
life works.

People expect a well designed website to work in the same way.

~~~
austinchang
Yes. This is how we designed the Fridge. Each group is an intimate circle of
people coming together around a shared context. Could be very large like an
event or could be small like a family network.

But because each is separate and you can communicate freely within each group
and not worry that it might accidentally get shared to another group you start
to see more meaningful engagement.

Now no one can prevent someone from taking a screen shot and sending it out
but like hosting a house party you trust that your guests won't be jumping on
your furniture or tearing down the wallpaper (unless it is that kind of
party...)

------
nopassrecover
I was working on something like this until BrainTrust.io revealed itself on
HN. How do you guys differ from BrainTrust.io or DropBox if you are going more
file focused?

~~~
austinchang
Braintrust seems to be more company and enterprise centric which is a great
market to grow in. Dropbox doesn't have the social component, group feed, and
conversation around the media. Soon enough we will allow people to upload any
media type and share it with the group and perhaps partner with a dropbox or
dropio around hosting and serving the files.

However we are going to stay focused on the socialization aspect of groups and
try to address this notion of simple, private, and/or temporary. Definitely
more to come!

~~~
nopassrecover
Great to hear but BrainTrust (and perhaps the creator can step in and clarify)
was focused around groups of people originally until A/B testing and the ever-
present need to make some income pushed it towards companies/project teams.
BrainTrust has group feeds and per file discussion which DropBox does not as
you've said (different focuses). Nonetheless I look forward to seeing how you
guys overcome these barriers so I can selfishly learn from your approach.

------
robryan
If your going to go down this road having an open link in which anyone can use
sounds like it could cause trouble. Another good option would be to have a
list locked down at the start of the group and then require group members to
ok people being added. Another idea would be people joining can only see new
content.

I know this doesn't completely solve the problem but to me unless it was
really locked down somehow it doesn't differ enough from what facebook are
offering.

~~~
austinchang
Well the invite links for each group can be reset or killed at anytime and the
group owner can kick out anyone that doesn't belong at anytime.

Like i said earlier these groups are like a themed house party or potluck
where you only invite your friends you know are interested in the theme and
trust them to bring a good dish and not jump on the furniture.

~~~
newchimedes
i like the idea, but do have a few reservations/questions. I am thinking about
using this for my family (cousins, aunts, etc...). Is there only one group
owner? Or can there be multiple owners/admins? I'm thinking like how yahoo
groups works where different users do have different permissions. Also can
anyone add photos to an existing album? So let's say we all attend a family
wedding and we each have photos, can they all upload to that same album? Or
does it not do that...couldn't tell from the demo group.

Other than that I like the idea and fact that this type of system helps
facilitate more conversation than a traditional "group" site.

------
KevinMS
Props for not having the usual tired glossy design, or as I call it "page
frosting". I don't see any drop shadows or gradients, and just slightly
rounded corners :)

~~~
austinchang
Thanks! We have a few new site coming out soon that "polishes" this up a bit
but still keeps it super simple. nothing wrong with a gradient or two?

------
Raphexion
I just tried it out a bit and I must say that I think it has potential.

Small change I recommend: make the "Add photos and post" button more visible.
Now you have to put the cursor in the post field for it to become visible.

I wish you all the luck.

~~~
austinchang
Thanks! This was a preview version to get the site out and bang at it. We have
a new version that will address a lot of these interface on ramp issues.

------
ars
Does this site have a backup/export?

I might be interested in using it, but startups fail sometimes, and I would
not like all my info to be lost if this happens.

~~~
austinchang
At this moment it is on the list! We had a file export to download all media
by post or by group which we are bringing back to include all posts.

Hopefully we don't go down before we get that up...!

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Debugreality
Any plans to make this an openid server? It would be a good way to validate
groups that other applications that require validation could leverage off.

~~~
blasdel
For it to work at all, each user would have to have a different URL for each
group they were in.

Along with nearly every other SSO solution short of LDAP, OpenID infuriatingly
_only_ authenticates the username — it provides no means whatsoever for
context about the user, much less group membership.

Brad Fitzpatrick (the creator of OpenID and founder of LiveJournal) has been
working on a new protocol called WebFinger to add context to usernames, but so
far they've avoided trying to codify a mechanism for group membership.

------
eli
Seems like FB could just make it a teensy bit easier to create and manage
groups and there's no longer really a problem to solve.

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csmeder
Are you guys sharing any invites on HN?

~~~
austinchang
it is actually up and open to the public now. you can create a group by simply
entering your email and click "get started". Share the invite URL with your
friends or input their email addresses to send an invite.

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mike-cardwell
Please make this work without javascript enabled. Even the simple login form
doesn't work without it...

~~~
mike-cardwell
Also, please make it 100% https.

Or at the bare minimum, secure the login so password details aren't sent as
plain text over an unsecured channel

------
revorad
Serious question: How will you make money?

------
strick
austinchang - Are you working on an iPhone app? android? blackberry?

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u48998
Seems they broke the fridge!

~~~
metamemetics
Yeah I would definitely try this out if it was working.

Facebook started to deteriorate when they made it even harder to group
friends. Before it was really simple to assign someone to a certain friend-
group at the same time you accept their friend request, this functionality
appears to have been removed.

Facebook would be vastly better if the interface was simply more group
oriented. If grouping friends as you add them was front and center. A group
list, where each friend-group element contains links to functionality such as:
what you share with this group, news feed\number of new posts of this group,
number online to chat in this group.

Would be vastly better than having a list of groups for newsfeed, list of
groups tucked away under privacy settings, list of groups tucked away in chat
box. Friend Groups are parents of features rather than Features being parents
of friend groups. It just plain psychologically works better.

I think facebook is a genuinely useful site compromised by a shit interface.
The facebook interface is like urban sprawl: an uncontrolled expansion that
ocassionally gets band-aids rather than a centralized plan based on User
Experience.

~~~
austinchang
Yes! we are up and running at www.frid.ge

this is one of the reasons why we build the Fridge. It is hard to filter and
organize your friends into lists, keep track of the privacy settings for those
lists and then hope that the people you are friends with have done the same
thing on Facebook. People are either not posting real content anymore, not
using their real name or are just boring on Facebook

The Fridge interface organized not by friend requests but by groups. Each
group is completely private from any other group with it's own news feed where
everyone can contribute whether it is for a personal and private conversation,
common interests of a specific group, or temporary networks that come together
for events, parties, or any social gathering.

People are invited to groups and people follow groups. If you get bored of a
group you can leave. If the event or activity is over you can start another
group around another event or activity based new or on going relationships.

