
World's first electrified road for charging vehicles opens in Sweden - rb808
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-first-electrified-road-for-charging-vehicles-opens-in-sweden
======
acd
I hope Sweden and Germany can make a common DIN Deutche industri normen
standard for charging electric vehicles on roads. There would be an added
benefit if we could build rail tracks among the electric guidance line. Rail
tracks to lower the rolling resistance, metal on metal vs rubber on asphalt.
We would then have a hybrid car rail track which should make it easy for
autonomous driving. The aim would to bring down the total co2 emissions of
transportation. Building both in ground and above ground electrification of
cars would be the best system as then cars can charge during good weather
conditions and trucks can always charge even during winter time. A system with
electric guidance in the ground is a bit vulnerable to snow during winter
times.

Here is another more rail like track which can be used by trucks but not by
cars. [https://www.scania.com/group/en/worlds-first-electric-
road-o...](https://www.scania.com/group/en/worlds-first-electric-road-opens-
in-sweden/)

Rolling resistance coefficient c of rail c=0.001, dirty tram rails c=0.005,
car c=0.02. Ie rails resistance is at least 25 times lower than rubber on
asphalt 0.005/0.02.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_resistance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_resistance)
[https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/rolling-friction-
resistan...](https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/rolling-friction-resistance-
d_1303.html)

~~~
stefan_
Let's just only have train tracks? We can still have electric trucks for the
last mile, but then they won't need electrified roads.

Long-distance goods transport with trucks is such a ridiculous concept, it's
really time we just face it: it only ever made sense because the state funds
the roads and road repair from general taxation, we have ridiculous subsidies
for the fossil fuels that make it run and trains had the misfortune to be
invented such a long time ago that the government has suffocated the industry.

Rolling resistance is somewhat of a rounding error, by the way. The big killer
is aerodynamics: the power needed to push air out of the way increases
quadratically with speed. But there is a cheat code: if you make the vehicle
longer or add something to the back, it can ride in the slipstream. Only you
can't make trucks very long at all because they need to work on public roads.
Trains on the other hand can be made ridiculously long, saving massively on
energy - multiple miles of wagons if you so wish.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Moving goods from the train to the truck is not a negligible cost. Also, you
have to move lots of things in batch with the train, which makes product and
supply chains unless nimble. Perishable agriculture products, for one thing,
benefit greatly from truck transport.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> Moving goods from the train to the truck is not a negligible cost.

Really? I was under the impression that this was one of the primary benefits
of standard shipping containers.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
That goods transfer costs would be negligible?

~~~
andrewwharton
Between shipping modes, yes. Hence the name "Intermodal Container".

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_container](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_container)

------
notatoad
This doesn't make much sense as an urban project, where chargers are close by,
lane-switching is frequent, people are likely to be on the road, and which the
article invites you to think about by comparing the cost to an urban tram.

but it makes ton of sense for long-distance highway journeys, which is a
problem that really needs solving before electric vehicles can be practical.

~~~
Nition
Although if you had this _everywhere_ , you could probably do away with most
of the batteries on electric cars, making them a lot cheaper and lighter.

~~~
wil421
It would never be everywhere at not in somewhere as vast as Europe or US.

To jump on OPs bandwagon. It would make sense to have this on highways as
opposed to surface streets. Distance is one of the limiting factors for a lot
of people buying electric.

In the US interstates are at least maintained by the Feds and are pretty
standard in look and feel. It would probably be easier to implement
nationwide.

~~~
dragonwriter
> In the US interstates are at least maintained by the Feds

No, they aren't. States are _encouraged_ to focus federal funds given to them
for road maintenance on the National Highway System, which includes the
Interstates, but the maintenance is done by the states.

EDIT: missed responding to this bit—

> and are pretty standard in look and feel.

The look and feel is due to the AASHTO [0], on which the federal government
(via DOT) has only non-voting membership, the same as a number of _foreign_
transportation authorities.

[0]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Association_of_Stat...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Association_of_State_Highway_and_Transportation_Officials)

~~~
wil421
You’re right. What I meant was funded by a federal program.

------
jacquesm
Slotcar track that has been scaled up, so: arcing, dangerous, will wear,
finicky as hell and impossible to change lanes without losing contact.
Probably not the best idea but props for trying.

~~~
rb808
I'd like to see how it works with a salted wet road too - do they turn it off?

~~~
ConceitedCode
Apparently they tested just that -

Säll said: “There is no electricity on the surface. There are two tracks, just
like an outlet in the wall. Five or six centimetres down is where the
electricity is. But if you flood the road with salt water then we have found
that the electricity level at the surface is just one volt. You could walk on
it barefoot.”

They also mentioned they turn off each segment if there is not a car on it.
Each segment is 50 meters.

~~~
verandaguy_alt
That's actually reassuring, I'm glad they looked into this.

My follow-up concern is, what if, under these salty and wet conditions,
something causes a short circuit between the powered rails?

e.g., either a defective vehicle-side contact where the anode and cathode
allow for the water and salt to close a much smaller gap, or if someone
deliberately sticks a piece of metal on there.

~~~
jacquesm
You'll get a small steam explosion but there are lots of ways for the pressure
to escape, and if the circuitry protecting the 50 meter stretch is fast enough
that might not even happen.

------
thedirt0115
Why is this considered "the world's first electrified road for charging
vehicles"? Compared to [https://www.wired.com/2013/08/induction-charged-
buses/](https://www.wired.com/2013/08/induction-charged-buses/) for example.
Does induction based charging not count as electrified? Is it that the Korean
one was for their buses only, not general passenger cars?

~~~
TheForumTroll
The difference is that the one you link has a few induction plates along the
route while the other has rails from one end to the other. It's like saying
"why do we need electric cars? We already have hybrids!" There are also buses
around here that charge at special points along the route. That doesn't make
the roads electrified though. Great job from Sweden, no matter if it is world
first or not.

~~~
thedirt0115
That's fair, thanks for the explanation. I legit didn't know the specifics of
the Korean technology, just that I had heard the bus can get charge from the
road while driving on it.

------
rb808
Wow I always assumed plugin batteries would be the only way to run electric
cars, this is great.

Also searching I saw these trucks using overhead electric lines, also in
Sweden

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27100u7IcII](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27100u7IcII)

~~~
azernik
A lot of electric busses in San Francisco also use pantographs, though usually
without a substantial battery, meaning they can't disconnect and reconnect
like these cars could.

~~~
Animats
Many of the electric buses in SF do have a backup battery. Not much range, but
enough to get it back to the wire if one gets out of position. The older buses
needed a tow truck if they became disconnected from power.

------
rhodrid
When I saw the title I thought it was going to be the first deployment of the
Qualcomm system featured on fullycharged[1] back in November. What they've
actually done looks... kinda flakey.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t0E4AcVu6o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t0E4AcVu6o)

~~~
markgavalda
Yeah I hoped for something like that too :(

------
ubittibu
And wet become fantastic skating slopes for motorcycles.

------
timonoko
Why cant they just supply kinetic energy? Cars have electric generators
themselves. It would be cheaper and safer, just basic cable-car technology.
The end-product is kinetic energy, anyway, so basically lossless.

We could have cable-slots at every uphill, and if there is too much traffic,
all energy goes just to moving cars. But they have now acquired kinetic energy
and can harness it at next downhill section with breaking generators.

~~~
dx034
I guess this would be very costly and have too many risks of damaged cars
and/or injuries by a broken cable.

~~~
timonoko
SanFrancisco-style cable-car has a cable in a slot. It is 200 year old
technology, safe to pedestrians and horses.

It could be made even safer with magnetic coupling. The cable has strong
permanent magnets and you can attach to these or use alternating magnetic
field to generate energy.

~~~
dx034
Yes but they were all built for that system specifically. And they are
significantly slower than cars on a motorway.

I don't think cars going 70mph and frequently linking in & out of the cable
would be safe.

------
John_KZ
This is probably the worst idea I've seen materialize in a long time.

------
dest
What is the voltage of the track?

If filled with salt water, 1 volt at the surface, but beneath?

------
blackrock
Cool, now I can play F-Zero in real life.

------
animal531
I am somehow reminded of when I was a kid playing with my Scalextric and I'd
get some no-name brand of car that would be used on a different circuit and
voltage, then suddenly having it run 5x as fast as normal on the Sca. track.

------
hndamien
Is fast charging and short periods of stopping really that much of an issue?

------
pankajdoharey
What happens when the tracks are flooded by rain water. Would it not
shortcircuit the tracks? How does one get rid of rain water filled in the
tracks to make them operational again?

~~~
newman8r
Sounds like it's a low voltage system with recessed terminals. The article
claims that if the road is flooded with saltwater, it's only ~1 volt at the
surface.

------
wolfpwner
Next step: wireless induction charging in parking spaces

~~~
hvidgaard
Unless a revolution comes along in the field, it's too inefficient. Best
condition inductive chargers can yield 90% efficiency, and that is not too
bad. But that require perfect alignment, and no distance between the coils.
Neither is realistic in a "park and charge without doing anything" scenario.

------
vesinisa
I wonder what is the charging power with this? Can the car sustain its battery
infinitely if you drive over electrified highways only?

~~~
rcthompson
Yes, but it's still not enough to power your smartphone while it's doing turn-
by-turn navigation.

------
hyuibg
This isn’t all that new - in fact London’s tram system was using it c100 years
ago:

[http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UIyXE_Fv3vA/TkLYU8vbHRI/AAAAAAAALb...](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UIyXE_Fv3vA/TkLYU8vbHRI/AAAAAAAALb8/WKjHa5zGNcs/s640/London+trams+c.1950s+%25288%2529.jpg)

~~~
TheForumTroll
Try taking that off the rails and go shopping and see how it works. No
comparable at all.

------
kwhitefoot
It would be cheaper and more easily scalable to fit more charging points in
parking spaces at shopping centres, motorway service stations and so on.

Why do we keep on inventing new complicated ways of doing things instead of
standardising and exploiting the things that we already know work?

~~~
rsynnott
If electric vehicles only had to have a range of a few tens of km (similar to
many existing plugin hybrids) they could be built dramatically cheaper. This
would also be ideal for buses, lorries and similar.

~~~
hndamien
Something like this? [https://www.micro-mobility.com/en/experience-
micro/microlino](https://www.micro-mobility.com/en/experience-micro/microlino)

------
hyuuu
is this the actual real world implementation of SOLAR FREAKIN ROADWAYS?

------
yodon
I can’t help but be amused at the way people fear cell phone towers but love
wireless charging devices

~~~
bluGill
I'm sure people will fear this too. Driving by the same people who probably
will make a ton of money speaking about how bad it is for you. Of course in
both cases that science says there is no harm is best shouted down.

~~~
JPLeRouzic
I would comment only about the wireless charging case: In medicine there is a
wireless device to treat an aggressive form of brain cancer: TTFields. It is
approved by the FDA [0]

It works by disrupting microtubules in the cell, a kind of micro-skeleton that
gives its shape to the cell.

The TTFields electrical fields have a low frequency, very similar to the Qi
wireless charging standard.

[0]
[https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cdrh_docs/pdf10/p100034a.pdf](https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cdrh_docs/pdf10/p100034a.pdf)

------
joering2
Sun can charge battery thru solar panels we all know that. Can Musk use his
sattelites network to shoot down a precisely guided laser to charge your Tesla
i.e. thru roof/hood made off of solar panels?

------
bitwize
"The Deliverator's car has enough potential energy packed into its batteries
to fire a pound of bacon into the asteroid Belt. Unlike a bimbo box or a Burb
beater, the Deliverator's car unloads that power through gaping, gleaming,
polished sphincters. When the Deliverator puts the hammer down, shit happens.
You want to talk contact patches? Your car's tires have tiny contact patches,
talk to the asphalt in four places the size of your tongue. The Deliverator's
car has big sticky tires with contact patches the size of a fat lady's thighs.
The Deliverator is in touch with the road, starts like a bad day, stops on a
peseta."

