
India's farmed chickens dosed with world's strongest antibiotics, study finds - Gupie
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/01/indias-farmed-chickens-dosed-with-worlds-strongest-antibiotics-study-finds
======
nonamechicken
This article has more info: [http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a-game-of-
chicken-how-...](http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a-game-of-chicken-how-
indias-poultry-farms-are-spawning-global-superbugs/article22597845.ece)

Some highlights:

"In India, at least five animal pharmaceutical companies are openly
advertising products containing colistin as growth promoters.

One of these companies, Venky’s, is also a major poultry producer. Apart from
selling animal medicines and creating its own chicken meals, it supplies meat
directly and indirectly to fast food chains in India such as KFC, McDonald’s,
Pizza Hut and Domino’s."

"McDonald’s, KFC, Pizza Hut and Domino’s said the chicken they sourced from
Venky’s is not raised on growth-promoting antibiotics and their suppliers
follow their policies controlling their use of antibiotics.

McDonald’s has pledged to phase out the use of critically important
antibiotics by 2018 for markets including the EU and the U.S. — with an extra
year for phasing out colistin in Europe.

KFC has made a similar promise about its U.S. supply chains. They have
promised to do the same in India, but without giving any timeframe.

Jubilant FoodWorks (which owns Domino’s) has set a date, of 2019, to start
phasing out the drugs."

From Venky's wikipedia
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_H_Group](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_H_Group)):

"In December 2010, the group launched Venky's Xprs, a fast food restaurant
specializing in chicken. The first outlet opened in Pune, India."

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Curiously, antibiotics were used widely in the USA for weight gain in
agricultural animals. It go to the point the sales agents would take them too,
and have annual 'weigh-ins' at the sales conventions!

Here's an article about it (if you can fight past the popup ads):

[https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2014/03/14/are...](https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2014/03/14/are-
antibiotics-making-us-fat)

~~~
michrassena
Could someone tell me how antibiotics promotes weight gain in livestock? Is
the use of antibiotics only a necessity because so many animals are kept in
close quarters? What about antibiotics causing weight gain in humans?

~~~
Retric
The immune system is reactive and takes both energy and nutrients. Antibiotics
reduce this expenditure which adds up over time.

Consider how many of these steps involve cell growth and or tissue damage that
needs to be repaired:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQGOcOUBi6s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQGOcOUBi6s)

TLDR; Low dose antibiotics don't eliminate infections, but by reducing their
growth the immune system puts far less effort into defense.

~~~
benaadams
Wouldn't low dose antibiotics be more likely to create antibiotic resistant
bacteria than high dose?

~~~
cratermoon
Precisely. Constant exposure to less-than-therapeutic doses of antibiotics is
a huge source of resistance. The bacteria in an animal with low doses or
antibiotics are not exposed to enough of the drug to outright kill them, but
the bacteria start to develop defenses. Bacteria can evolve extremely rapidly
-- they don't even need to reproduce, as bacteria can exchange DNA
horizontally[1].

Also, this is why if your doctor prescribes a course of antibiotics you should
always complete the entire course, even if you feel fine. Stopping the
antibiotics early can select for resistant strains.

1\.
[http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/microbiome/resistance...](http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/microbiome/resistance/)

~~~
mrob
>Stopping the antibiotics early can select for resistant strains.

Some people are claiming this is not supported by evidence:
[http://www.bmj.com/content/358/bmj.j3418.full](http://www.bmj.com/content/358/bmj.j3418.full)

Previous HN discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15311274](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15311274)

~~~
Retric
Depends on what you do with the 'saved' medication.

If you get 5 day subscription stop on day 3, then take the rest next week
that's bad.

------
ollybee
From [https://aphascience.blog.gov.uk/2016/11/18/colistin-an-
antib...](https://aphascience.blog.gov.uk/2016/11/18/colistin-an-antibiotic-
of-last-resort/)

"Colistin is considered a drug of last resort in human medicine" but also "It
has been used in Europe for decades to treat intestinal infections in farm
animals, although in the UK, it has only more recently been used to treat
infections in animals"

The Guardian article paints a picture of developing countries irresposibly
using colistin for animals, but I dont think that is the full story here.

~~~
zo1
I don't think it really matters how it's being painted. If it's true/fact (and
we are here discussing it), then it's a problem that needs solving, period.
Let's not devolve this into "but you did it first so I can do it too"
detractions that won't help prevent biological consequences for the rest of
society.

~~~
vikiomega9
I think it's also important to understand historical context. The "painting"
make it seems like the "others" don't know what they're doing

~~~
etiam
If they understand what they're doing, why are they doing it then?

This is grossly irresponsible. People will die over it.

~~~
vikiomega9
Indeed people will die over it. But you have to make a convincing argument
about changing behaviour as opposed to playing a variant of white man's
burden.

------
vanderZwan
While not quite the same thing, this reminds me of that time when tramadol was
found in tree bark in Cameroon and misclassified as a natural product for a
while:

> _[You] can indeed extract tramadol from the stated species – there’s no
> doubt about it. You can extract three of its major metabolites, too – its
> three major mammalian metabolites. That’s because, as it turns out, tramadol
> is given extensively to cattle (!) in the region, so much of it that the
> parent drug and its metabolites have soaked into the soil enough for the
> African peach /pincushion tree to have taken it up into its roots._

[http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2014/09/15/wei...](http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2014/09/15/weirdly_tramadol_is_not_a_natural_product_after_all)

------
0xmohit
Research by the Centre for Science and Environment revealed that 70% of the
milk sold in India is adulterated [1]. Unfortunately, there are little or no
checks by the government agencies and businesses continues to sell adulterated
products. People sell milk prepared out of refined oil and detergents. It has
been covered widely [2], but the practice continues unabated.

It becomes hard to trust those selling organic stuff (milk, vegetables or
chicken) as they are practically willing to supply as much quantity as one
wants to procure.

Even vegetables sold in India are dangerous [3].

[1] [http://www.cseindia.org/content/adulterated-milk-what-
indian...](http://www.cseindia.org/content/adulterated-milk-what-indians-are-
drinking)

[2] [https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012/01/10/most-
indian-m...](https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012/01/10/most-indian-milk-
adulterated/)

[3] [https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/City/Lucknow/Veggies-
on-...](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/City/Lucknow/Veggies-on-steroids-
are-softly-killing-you/articleshow/4717994.cms)

~~~
pvelagal
"Adulterated" mostly means "diluted with water".To be honest "diluted milk
from milk man" is not news to Indians :) Also, only 8% had residue of
detergents mainly due to improper cleaning of the containers (if you buy loose
milk instead of packaged). Most families in India make yogurt at home and the
typical way to gauge the dilution is to look at the thickness of the yogurt
made out of the milk.

~~~
reaperducer
> Also, only 8% had residue of detergents

Only 8%? Well, then it's all fine then. Nothing to worry about at all.

~~~
pvelagal
Original poster didn't make any mention of water in the 70%, but quoted
detergents. I quoted the real value, which is 8%.

------
mschuster91
I wonder how much corruption is at play here - normally it would be the
primary job of a food safety agency or the agency controlling medical
supplie(r)s to prevent colistin going into farming.

And that's not an Indian (or Chinese) only problem - pumping up livestock with
antibiotics is common practice. I wonder when I won't go to a doctor to get
antibiotics, but to the next butcher...

~~~
goatlover
I wonder if Libertarians incorporate into their economic view that companies
tend to do whatever they can get away with if it helps the bottom line, even
if this is ultimately harmful?

~~~
minikites
I've never seen a libertarian answer to how that philosophy would solve global
climate change so I very much doubt it.

~~~
clarkmoody
> solve global climate change

Does anyone have an answer to this question?

> libertarian answer

Property rights in the land, air, and water.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-
market_environmentalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-
market_environmentalism)

~~~
Daishiman
Assigning economic value to every natural resource is not only stupid, but
immoral.

------
kbhn
It's not a popular opinion to share online due to how ingrained food choices
are into our lives (memories, communion, celebratory meals, etc), but if this
development concerns you I highly recommend exploring a plant-based diet. I've
been meat/dairy free for about a year now and it's been one of the best
decisions I've ever made.

~~~
djsumdog
Keep in mind that vega/plant based diets are purely political diets. I mean if
you want to do them, that's fine, but there's not a huge health aspect.

A lot of studies are showing the largest factor in heart disease and obesity
is not fat, but carbohydrates (specifically starches and sugars, not dietary
fiber or sugar alcohols).

A lot of people today still think Adkins died of heart disease because of a
(later rededicated) Reuters article with bad information (he was old, slipped
on a piece of ice and bused his skull). I wonder had the Adkins diet movement
not died off, if we'd see a significant reduction in obesity today.

It might be difficult to eat vegan, but it's much more difficult to eat low
carb. Look carefully at everything in your pantry.

~~~
cageface
There is an extensive disinformation campaign going on, largely funded by meat
and dairy companies, to confuse people about this. Refined carbohydrates and
sugars are not healthy, it’s true. But the idea that saturated fat is safe is
not supported by any solid science.

Summarized here: [https://www.libertariannews.org/2016/03/07/dr-peter-attia-
re...](https://www.libertariannews.org/2016/03/07/dr-peter-attia-readdressing-
dietary-guidelines/)

[https://nutritionfacts.org/2015/05/19/low-carb-diets-and-
cor...](https://nutritionfacts.org/2015/05/19/low-carb-diets-and-coronary-
blood-flow/)

~~~
brucephillips
Since the title of your first source is "Hack, Liar and All Round Disgusting
Individual", I'm not inclined to trust it or investigate further.

~~~
cageface
What else can you call somebody peddling pseudoscience that's horrifically
damaging to individuals, animals, and the planet?

~~~
brucephillips
You don't call them anything. You address their arguments and methodology. All
the axe grinding in that article makes it read like a tabloid, and I don't
trust tabloids.

~~~
cageface
Try this instead then:

[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/well/good-fats-bad-
fats.h...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/well/good-fats-bad-fats.html)

Or this:

[https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-saturated-fat-
studies-b...](https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-saturated-fat-studies-
buttering-up-the-public/)

------
mofeien
How big of an influence towards not eating cheap chicken anymore should the
overuse of antibiotics be in your ethical framework? Relating to "buying fair-
trade coffee for the plantation worker's sake", "not driving (combustion) cars
because of environmental impact", etc. I find it hard to estimate.

For me, the antibiotics situation had only sub-conscious influence; the
concrete, formulated reasoning was more like this: Before becoming completely
vegetarian, I started preferring big animals like beef and pork over chicken
because their amount of meat per animal killed is higher. Then I stopped
eating beef because of its climate implications. Finally someone told me pigs
are actually quite intelligent so even though it's just few animals per kg of
meat, their ethical weight weighed more heavy again. Luckily at this point it
was not a big step anymore and pretty easy to stop eating meat altogether.

~~~
spraak
By completely vegetarian do you mean vegan? Because if you've come this far
but still consume dairy or eggs, you might consider how the milked cow or egg
laying chicken still lives a horrible life and eventually is slaughtered, too.

Edit: I'm vegan, for some of the above reasons, but also for other reasons.

------
mixas
Factory farming was literally non-existent in India about 15-20 years ago. And
when it started it was advertised and promoted as a "cleaner" alternative to
buying from traditional sources.

When morality and responsibility is moved away from the individual, the
unscrupulous rise up to dominate the market.

Europe isn't as rosy either as it is often painted. The supermarkets (near
duopoly), would sell anything at any price as long as they can get away with
it.

------
biztos
This is why I was so impressed with the roadside sellers of live chickens I
saw in Pune.

In a place where the climate is unfavorable to the freshness of meat, and
(just like in the USA) the big producers have strong incentives to sell you
crap, how do you know the animal you're going to eat is healthy? Observe it
alive!

Probably not a foolproof method, but better than you're getting at Whole
Foods.

~~~
reaperducer
Alive != healthy, sanitary, or suitable for consumption.

~~~
vickychijwani
Yes, but GP never claimed they're equal - instead the claim is that seeing the
animal alive and talking to its seller to get more info is a _better_ proxy to
judge those things you listed (healthy, sanitary) than Whole Foods'
endorsement is, the reliability of which over time depends strongly on their
financial status, management ethics and a number of other variables outside
your control. The Whole Foods approach is definitely more convenient for the
buyer, at the cost of assurance.

Also, it's going to be a lot more difficult for a street-side vendor to cheat
you compared to a behemoth like Whole Foods with deep pockets, the latest and
greatest preservatives etc at its disposal to make meat _look_ healthy, and a
large, existing customer base that implicitly trusts its products.

------
azureel
There are 2 questions that are missing in the article.

\- Who is producing and selling this antibiotics, in a scale of hundreds of
tons?

\- Is it produced in India or another country?

~~~
urlwolf
Is it crazy to think that other nations may feel threatened by the potential
epidemics of antibiotic resistant bacteria? If so, could they (1) stablish
sanctions (2) invade or in worst case (3) nuke, a country that is actively
provoking a worldwide crisis?

~~~
cageface
Yes, nuking a country for putting antibiotics in chicken feed is crazy.

------
drak0n1c
There's a bit of a Trolley Problem here. 194,000,000 Indians experienced
starvation and malnutrition in 2014-2015. If antibiotics greatly speeds animal
growth, aids reproductive success, and increases muscle mass perhaps it's a
necessary temporary risk in order to increase the food supply and drive down
food prices.

Antibiotic resistant diseases claimed around 700,000 lives in 2014 according
to the CDC. Animal feed is unproven to be contributing factor, and only a
partial one if so.

~~~
jlamberts
By the utilitarian argument, wouldn't the answer just be to stop eating meat
and eat whatever we're feeding to livestock (or some other food grown in its
place)? Meat is a pretty inefficient source of food compared to large scale
agriculture.

~~~
drak0n1c
True, and it helps that India has a large religiously vegetarian population.
But that's not everyone. Government policy can only do so much - it can
enforce a ban on large farms using antibiotics with some effort and resources,
but it's nearly impossible to prevent people from eating meat entirely. Total
prohibition of consumer goods doesn't have a good track record.

~~~
sevenfive
So what is the trolley problem? People who are starving don't buy meat.

~~~
drak0n1c
If there is a supply glut of a staple food, the prices of food in general,
even not of that type tends to driven downward - because to some extent foods
are interchangeable. Similar to how an overabundance of residential
skyscrapers has a downward effect on the price of less attractive homes.
There's a lot of history on food shortages and prices that can be found with a
cursory level of searching. Each person can only eat so much in a day.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand)

~~~
sevenfive
Thanks for linking me to an article about Supply and Demand. I hadn't thought
about that. You are still wrong.

The problem is that factory farmed animals usually eat grain which could be
used to feed humans. Even if only 10% of their feed is suitable for human
consumption, it's still a net loss of food, because meat is an extremely
inefficient source of calories.

------
yeukhon
When I shop, I want oragnic meat. But it remains a myth to me whether one
brand is “more organic” than others. Can I trust the simple “organic approved”
stamp? What’s in theirs anyway? What about the organic soil in my backyard I
use to grow my delicious tomatoes? Free range chicken are completely organic?
Not necessary, a misconception. What exactly is “organic”?

Antibacterial resistance is becoming more evident. Beside regulate the use of
antibotics (and pesticide) in food source, we should not overlook the overuse
of antibotics in medical treatments [1][2][3].

Patients often do not understand what antibotics are for, and they would ask
their doctors to prescribe antibotics even when antibotics are absolutely
unnecessary. Some doctors will give in because the prescription would avoid
confrontation with the patient and therefore will give the patient an illusion
he/she is receiving the full treatment.

Antibacterial resistance affects now and our future generations. Look up
“antibotic resistance” in Google News and you will find hundreds of news
articles over the years.

[1]:
[https://www.cdc.gov/features/antibioticuse/index.html](https://www.cdc.gov/features/antibioticuse/index.html)

[2]:
[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/05/170509121924.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/05/170509121924.htm)

[3]:
[http://www.utswmedicine.org/stories/articles/year-2017/antib...](http://www.utswmedicine.org/stories/articles/year-2017/antibiotics-
evidence-based-medicine.html)

~~~
spraak
Simplest (not easiest) personal solution is to not eat meat (or any animal
products)

~~~
aiCeivi9
Pesticides overuse is also very common and that is the same class of problems,
though it doesn't threaten whole humanity like antibiotics do.

~~~
spraak
So what? I shouldn't eat anything? I mean yeah, I could try that. But what is
your point, that nothing should be done because it's useless to do anything?

~~~
Momquist
The GP is simply suggesting that you're selective and biased in the issues
you're trying to solve. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing: you have to
choose your battles.

But someone else could propose only eating meat to solve the massive use of
pesticide. Apart from the possible health issues, he would be as right in his
position as you are.

~~~
vickychijwani
I appreciate your point and I learned something new from it, but I disagree
with the last part. By your GP's own admission, pesticide overuse doesn't
threaten all of humanity like antibiotic overuse does. So no, they are not "as
right as" someone trying to avoid contributing to the antibiotic overuse
problem. Not all problems are equally important.

------
goalieca
Who are the pharmaceutical companies selling to for this to happen??

~~~
tobltobs
This article has some more info:
[http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a-game-of-chicken-
how-...](http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a-game-of-chicken-how-indias-
poultry-farms-are-spawning-global-superbugs/article22597845.ece)

One paragraph: "One of these companies, Venky’s, is also a major poultry
producer. Apart from selling animal medicines and creating its own chicken
meals, it supplies meat directly and indirectly to fast food chains in India
such as KFC, McDonald’s, Pizza Hut and Domino’s."

------
nnain
Gosh, I hate how organised, and lethal Venky's and similar companies are. They
need to be checked in news, ALL the time. (Just shared this on all my social
media. I hope the news spreads far and wide.)

------
known
They're talking about
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broiler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broiler)

------
perseusprime11
Is this one of the causes as to why humans are developing resistance to
antibiotics?

------
nofilter
So, birds that can't fly very far, are very high. Interesting.

------
veeragoni
Next time I feel sick, I will eat non organic chicken to get some antibiotics.

