
A focus on elite schools ignores the issues most college students face - kelukelugames
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/shut-up-about-harvard/
======
spyspy
I've found this type of attitude to be a huge problem at my company that no
one wants to admit. We only recruit from top tier schools because we only want
top tier talent, while at the same time and with a completely straight face
complaining that we can't fill positions fast enough.

~~~
muddyrivers
This is bewildering to me as well. There are many talented students in second-
tier (if we have to use ranking to define them) public universities. For
example, many kids in small midwest towns didn't know much about the
prestigious private colleges, and if they heard of them, they were scared off
by the expensive tuitions. They didn't know a large part of the expenses would
be taken care of by need-based financial aid. In many cases, that kid is the
first in the whole family who got into college. Naturally, they enroll the
state's public universities.

I met several students like this. In one project for an advanced AI class, I
was awed by a student's code written in SML. It was his first experience using
a functional programming language. He not only grasped the concepts but also
applied it in coding exceedingly well. I talked to him a few times. Very smart
and a nice guy. If he didn't even get an interview opportunity just because he
went into a second-tier public university, shame on the hiring managers.

~~~
bpchaps
It's much worse if you don't have ANY sort of degree, despite having skills.

I once applied for an internal job at a major options exchange to go from NOC
to app support and managed to get an interview with HR. When I got up there,
the HR person looks at my resume, notices a lack of degree and says "Sorry, we
require that you have a degree." I quit about a month later to do a near
identical job for higher pay and aced it. Their loss.

Lesson learned? If a company requires a degree, permanently refuse to work
with them in the future, since, for some reason, they love calling back a year
later with a great opportunity I can "learn" at.

~~~
atemerev
Got to a job offer once as a software engineer in a US-based high frequency
trading company, without any degree. Say what you want about "greedy
financists", but they really don't care about anything except getting the job
done.

~~~
bpchaps
Hah, yep! I'm now doing freelance remote Linux work for HFTs because of that
fact. :)

Another guy I know wrote a hugely profitable HFT equity system without a
degree at 20 years old.

------
stcredzero
The population of the educated 1st world offers higher education as an
invitation to, "Join us! It's great in here!" So it behooves us to make sure
this pathway is genuine, not filled with traps and fraud, and doesn't exploit
or drain the participants.

From what I have seen, though, we are failing. When a regime fails, it's not
visible from the centers of power and the shiny hallways. It's first visible
in the periphery, amongst the least powerful.

~~~
keithpeter
Quote from OP

 _" Barely half of first-time, full-time bachelor’s degree students graduate
within six years; for part-time or community college students, that share is
even lower."_

Observation from UK: that just _would not fly_ here. Including mature/part
time students.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
I have a vague memory of being told by someone that the US system is slightly
different, because it includes a year or two of what we'd consider A Level
content in the UK.

So you get more people panicking in the first year or two when they find they
can't hack the basics.

Or they just don't care, because daddy's trust fund awaits.

Tangentially, the subject with the worst drop out rate in the UK is CS, at
around 11%. It's also the subject with the worst employment prospects.

That could be because it's hard, but it could also be because the pay here can
be terrible compared to the US.

~~~
keithpeter
Or possibly because the jobs are going to eastern Europe/India. Some very
clever and effective people out there and, you know, the Internet.

But seriously, 50% drop out? We should export OFSTED. That'll sort them (I
work as a teacher).

------
shockzzz
Love it. fivethirtyeight++. We should totally be talking about how to improve
college for the vast majority of students, not the ones who basically made it
already.

~~~
akhilcacharya
I'm just elated to see that 538 was able to see the own bubble that they live
in and comment on it.

I've had it with the Ivy talk, given I have no chance at that sort of prestige
now.

------
oldmanhorton
Are selective schools overrepresented, or are nonselective schools
underrepresented? I don't think these two ideas are the same, because I think
there is room for discussion about both.

Also, the article seems to imply that discussing selective institutions on a
national stage is like discussing which Ferrari to purchase at a soup kitchen,
but in reality, so few students attend selective institutions _because theyre
selective._ A significantly larger number apply and are waiting for those
decision letters, even if they recognize that it will almost certainly be a
rejection. In the grand scheme of things this point doesn't really matter, but
it was something I noticed.

*Disclosure: I attend a large, public research university

~~~
whateveridunno
>"Are selective schools overrepresented, or are nonselective schools
underrepresented?" Those aren't the same ideas, but they're both true.

>"A significantly larger number apply" True, but that number is still
vanishingly small relative to the number of college applicants as a whole.

------
dominotw
I interviewed at airbnb in 2012 and the very first interviewer started with
"your degree is not from a good school" like the very first sentence right to
my face. He just seemed insulted that he has to spend time with someone lesser
like me.

I've never applied to any other sfo startup after that but won't be surprised
if that attitude is common at other places.

Complete sob story here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11291155](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11291155)

~~~
Retric
I had someone ask that once in an interview. My response was I got into a
better school, but sitting in classes I was less than impressed.

This seemed to upset them, but I may have accidentally dissed their school.

Honestly, I think it's mostly insecurity on their part. If you spend 3+ years
going somewhere you like to think it was a good 'deal' even if you overpay for
a sub par education.

~~~
eastWestMath
I'm at a Canadian school and work for a pretty well known prof (well known in
my field, at least). The more I've encountered people who've always been in
"elite" institutions, the less I've been impressed.

~~~
stuxnet79
Computer Science or Mathematics?

------
imh
>“Ninety-five percent of the newsroom probably went to private institutions,
they went to four-year institutions, and they went to elite institutions,”
said Jeff Selingo...

This right here is why. The narrative goes that if you don't go to an elite
school, you won't get an elite job. (Let's not argue about how true that is,
but I think we can agree it's a common narrative.) People want elite jobs, so
they want to go to the elite schools. The article points out that most
students don't go to selective schools, but this sounds to me like, when
discussing wealth inequality, pointing out that most people aren't
billionaires. When talking about selectivity and competition in trying to get
good schools/jobs, the fact that most students don't make the cut is the whole
point of the conversation.

------
ryandrake
Wow, today I learned that there are colleges that accept >50% of their
applicants. I guess I just kind of assumed that most colleges and universities
were bloodbaths of competition, requiring the whole array of essays,
interviews and letters of recommendation. Interesting article.

~~~
jofer
I can't imagine that most state universities accept less than 50% of their
applicatants.

For example, my undergrad has an acceptance rate of ~95%, but it's still a
regionally very well-respected school.

State schools, particularly the "non-flagship" state schools have a _very_
clear mission of educating the local populace. A low acceptance rate is in
direct opposition to that.

All that having been said, with a high acceptance rate comes "weed out
classes". People who went to high schools that didn't prepare them for college
will struggle _much_ more than people from suburban/wealthy areas. A high
acceptance rate usually implies less individual attention until you get past
the intro classes.

~~~
jsprogrammer
Indeed, low acceptance rates are a failure metric. It indicates that the
institution cannot meet demand and is leaving many in the community behind.

~~~
nostrebored
That's a strange way to define failure. If you think that a student cannot
make it through your curriculum why drain your available resources and waste
their time? Should schools have sub curricula with different rigor?

~~~
jsprogrammer
I assume the acceptance rate is calculated only from those who meet the
requirements. Why would you apply to a school you do not qualify for? I don't
doubt it ever happens, but it would not account for the very low acceptance
rates at many schools.

~~~
protomyth
Also, your talking about students from the state that graduated from state
high schools. It would be a failure of the state educational system if they
weren't qualified for college.

Dealing with reality, most state colleges have a program to bootstrap students
or it is heavily hinted they should attend community college for the first
year or two to get their skills up.

------
randomgyatwork
I've been told that Harvard Law is pass/fail, so you can be a crappy student
(as long as you can get in) and still get a degree. Thus, firms that focus on
top-tire schools get lots of bad lawyers who went to the right schools.

I sort of see top-tire schools like I see fake doctors wearing lab coats, if
you want a lazy signal go for it, but it shouldn't be more than an ok and move
on.

~~~
w1ntermute
It's not pass/fail - there are grades (high pass, pass, low pass, etc.), and
top law firms certainly take grades into account during the interview process.

~~~
maxerickson
high pass, pass, low pass really make me wonder what's buried in the etc?

What's left for someone that still graduates?

------
acconrad
_> FiveThirtyEight is just as bad: The vast majority of our editorial staff,
including me, went to elite, selective colleges. (I went to Columbia.)_

What an ironic article, given that most of the article doesn't stop talking
about elite colleges. I thought the rule was if you wanted to tackle something
like this, you just don't write about them.

~~~
bencasselman
I think this is an important issue that's worthy of coverage. I also thought
it was important to disclose that I'm not innocent/unbiased in this. FWIW, in
my own higher ed writing I try to emphasize more representative schools. (I'm
the author of this piece.)

------
graycat
The 538 OP is saying that the mainstream media (MSM) has been over simplifying
the college admission process. Yes.

Ah, since when has the MSM let the truth complicate a good, simple, formula-
fiction style _story_?

Or the MSM needs to pay the bills, which with the Internet has gotten more
difficult. Then, sure, to pay the bills, grab eyeballs for ad revenue.

How to grab the eyeballs? Grab the readers with the sure-fire technique for
getting and keeping the attention of an audience, discovered already by the
ancient Greeks, that is, by _formula fiction_. So, the content is a take-off
on formula fiction, not passing out solid, important information about
reality.

In particular grab the readers by the heart, the gut, or below the belt,
always below the shoulders, never between the ears. Grab them one of these
three ways, and their eyeballs will be sure to follow!

So, in formula fiction, there is a _protagonist_ , that is, central character,
the reader is supposed to _identify_ with. Next, the protagonist has a
_problem_ , enough to get us concerned enough to keep reading. So maybe there
is a threat, maybe from some scandal. So, we're into _scandal_. Uh, we're into
the E. Fromm human anxiety from the human realization that we are vulnerable
to the hostile forces of society -- callous college admissions committees
seeking $10 million donations.

Then, with high irony, we have 538 writing about the scandal of the MSM
writing about the scandal of the college admission process. Hmm ....

If readers have not yet figured out much of how the MSM works, then before
they assume that they can trust the MSM to be factual and objective sources of
information and, thus, get manipulated, they need to hear a more skeptical,
realistic, and appropriate description.

And the MSM manipulations can also descend into propaganda: Some of the
propaganda can be paid. And a media source can pass out propaganda because
they can, thus, attract an audience that likes to see their view of the world,
the one given in the propaganda, the same as their own -- such readers feel
better seeing the agreement. So, when the media sets aside facts and
objectivity, we get manipulation, readers with unnecessary anxiety, and maybe
also propaganda, some of which can be dangerous.

"More formula fiction, Ma!"

