

Microsoft U-turn sees Start button back on Windows 8 - pmjoyce
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22714048

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MichaelGG
It's like MS is being obtuse on purpose. People complain about having the
entire focus of the system switch to tablet mode, just to find a document or
launch a program. Not because of the few pixels representing the start menu.
They obviously know this.

At first, I thought Win8 start screen would be nearly equivalent to the start
menu. It is not. First, on RDP, it is an utter and total nightmare. Whoever
thought Windows Server should use the start screen should be sacked. Last week
I lit up 2012 servers for a client, and they thought the shell was a joke,
literally. Even MS TechNet admits that doing things might be a bit of a
hassle.

On normal desktop, it's extremely distracting to flip to start screen instead
of opening the start menu. Also, the search feature is broken. Instead of
having one global search, you need to type the query, then arrow down a few
times to select the kind you wanted (like settings).

Finally, even when you get results, they're in tablet-tile mode, which is an
annoyingly cartoonish way, and in case of long names (as MS likes), you get
the name clipped.

If MST3K was reviewing it, this would be a part they just sorta chuckle and
say "They really did that."

~~~
ishansharma
I second this. Main reason I switched back to Windows 8 was broken search. MS
just broke something for sake of change.

In Windows 7, to change proxy settings, I just write proxy and hit enter.

Windows 8, write proxy, hit down/move mouse and then do it.

For someone who routinely changes system settings, this is a nightmare.

~~~
skrebbel
That said, the settings search did actually become much better. You can search
not only for the names of control panel screens, but for _what_ you want to
do. I've been pretty impressed, they've had somebody enter giant lists of
weighted keywords somewhere.

~~~
wvenable
Searching for what you want to do seems to work pretty well on Windows 7.

~~~
drharris
I think the difference is that Windows 7 has easy search for what you want to
_execute_ , where 8 allows you to search for _intent_.

~~~
MichaelGG
Searching for things like "Change network" in Windows 7 seems to work just
fine - you get a list of common tasks. They might have added more aliases in
Windows 8 based on feedback or research. I don't think it's anything
fundamentally new.

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lakerz16
The Start Button is just a symbol for the larger issue, which is the shafting
of Desktop users. There were only a small handful of things in Windows 8.0
that I felt offered an improved Desktop experience, whereas there were tons of
things that I felt required more buttons clicks, more steps, etc

I hope 8.1 addresses the Desktop users in more ways than just the Start
Button.

~~~
adamman
What requires more steps?

~~~
jamesgeck0
Powering down

In Windows 7: Start > Shutdown In Windows 8: Charms > Settings > Power >
Shutdown

~~~
Too
Who uses power down anyway? Just close your lid or press the power button
once. The type of power down can be configured for both these actions.

I maybe shut down fully or restart once every second month and then i actually
don't mind if it takes one click more.

~~~
WiseWeasel
Desktop users.

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
Press the power button.

~~~
WiseWeasel
Madness!

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grannyg00se
"In the 8.1 update, the area will be more visible. A left-click on the tip
will bring up a tile-based Start Screen - formerly known as the Metro
interface - designed for touch-screen users, while a right-click will display
a small menu of other options such as Event Viewer, Device Manager and Disk
Management."

It already behaves that way.

Also, searching to launch an app isn't that much different than the old start
menu. Mouse to the bottom left, left click, start typing.

~~~
wvenable
I don't run Windows 8 at home (still on 7) but I did encounter an eye-opening
experience when I visited my father-in-law last weekend. He used the start
screen to launch the apps that were immediately there, but when he needed to
find a non-obvious application he opened explorer and navigated to the Program
Files folders!

I thought Microsoft always heavily user-tested their UI changes but I can't
see how that was possible at all with Windows 8 and Metro.

~~~
iamshs
Same way as before, open start screen and type the program name.

~~~
wvenable
You know that and I know that but I know a lot of people who never thought to
type in program names even on Windows 7.

The big flaw in Windows 8 is that you have to already know how to use Windows
8 in order to use it. It gives you almost no hint on how to do anything or
where to find anything.

~~~
iamshs
True. A tutorial other than two screens at the beginning would have saved a
lot of hassle. I learnt a lot of shortcuts through Yash Tolia's blog.
Regarding programs, every program installed leaves a clutter of things on the
Start Screen, that is one major annoyance for me too. Among the main shortcut
will be, read me's and other nonsense.

~~~
wvenable
If you need a tutorial, you've already lost.

~~~
iamshs
What is this kind of thinking? Really? It is better than fiddling around. Let
me not read books/manuals on how to make iOS apps, general relativity, and how
to set cruise control on KIA Forte since wvenable says I have already lost.
There is an adaptability curve, and it is important to list all the
improvements in one place through a tutorial rather than finding new things
after two months of using OS in old way.

~~~
wvenable
You might need a tutorial to build a nuclear reactor but you shouldn't need a
tutorial just to launch applications on a desktop OS that has been around for
20 years.

------
freehunter
>However, it will not offer all the functionality previously associated with
the feature. Instead it will bring users to the recently-introduced "Metro"
interface.

I don't understand how bringing users to the Metro interface is not offering
all the functionality of the previous start button. The old start menu was a
list of shortcuts. The Metro interface is a list of shortcuts. It might look
different, but where is the loss of functionality?

~~~
NamTaf
You could argue that the disorientation and loss of context caused by
completely replacing the entire desktop with a list of shortcuts is a loss of
functionality. Previously the start menu was kind of like looking at the index
in a corner of a map that gives grid references for every location, in that
you still could keep your location on the map (and thus understanf the context
of your surroundings) in view. The new start menu is more like having to
completely flip off the page with the map on to look at the index on another
page. It's vastly more disruptive to a continuous workflow.

Edit: real-world example: I'm on a web page with a list of prices and want to
do a quick sum. On 7, I'd hit win-key, type 'calc' and then enter the prices,
all the while keeping my eyes on the numbers I want to add so I don't lose
track of them. On 8, it will flash my entire screen full of icons. I lose view
of the numbers and therefore may lose track of the numbers I want to add up.

~~~
freehunter
I wouldn't consider that to be "not offering all the functionality" like the
article suggests. It's merely a different way of getting around.

If your anecdote is true in the spirit of the original complaint, then Windows
7 doesn't offer all the functionality of Windows XP. I recently got upgraded
at work from Windows XP to Windows 7. I've been so used to hitting the windows
key, pressing R to open the run menu, then typing 'calc'. Now when I do that,
I get distracted when a window pops up searching for something names 'rcalc'.
In 7 I don't need to hit 'R', which breaks my workflow and I guess that is a
loss of functionality.

~~~
Osiris
Hold WIN and press R to bring up the Run menu (Win+R). Win+D, Win+E, Win+Left,
Win+Right, etc. are all global shortcuts I use all the time.

~~~
freehunter
I'm not being serious in my complaint, I'm trying to highlight the absurdity
of "breaking workflow" being linked to "removing functionality".

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smoorman1024
This is still less than optimal. Just give the desktop users what they want.
To me Windows 8 is a half baked attempt at striking a balance between desktop
users and tablet users. Combining these interfaces is not going to work well
no matter which way you try it. Its actually awfully reminiscent of using an
old windows phone that essentially brought the desktop user interaction of
Windows to mobile.

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kamjam
The first thing any technical person I know that uses Windows 8 on a desktop
does is install Classic Shell: <http://www.classicshell.net/>

I still can't get used to that metro interface and switching between the modes
in desktop mode.

~~~
jorgeleo
I prefer <http://startisback.com/>

~~~
beefman
Why do you prefer it?

~~~
jorgeleo
I look at start 8 too... I choose start is back because it uses as much of the
ms api that are already installed, so is the one that produces the closest
start button... now they even have a xp mode with the cascade menu... I missed
that, I really don;t like the scrolling because the cascade allows me to point
and click without having to search first.

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ladzoppelin
I love Windows 8 and hope they leave the option to keep the task like it
currently stands. The negativity is bloggers, using Macbooks, trying to
rekindle the Vista days for page views.

~~~
eddieroger
Bloggers, regardless of what of laptop they have, have a platform to voice
their legitimate gripes about an operating system, where consumers only have
the power of their purse, and can choose to not buy - which is happening. It's
not like their making up their grievances, and many are in alignment with my
usage of Windows 8, despite my lack of status as a blogger.

~~~
freehunter
>can choose to not buy - which is happening.

Except that Windows 8 is selling in massive numbers.

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Fauntleroy
I wouldn't hate re-learning the Windows interface if they had actually
improved the experience.

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runjake
The Start Button wasn't a big issue to me, as I long ago moved to a keyboard-
centric workflow -- using the Windows key, typing a few letters of whatever I
wanted to open and hit ENTER.

The big problem here is that this no longer works in Windows 8. Now you hit
the Windows key, type a few letters of whatever you want to open and you have
to arrow or tab a few times to get to the actual item you cared about.

For those complaining about the cumbersomeness of getting to system settings,
I agree. That's why I urge users to learning about the Windows key+x keyboard
shortcut.

More excellent tips from Scott Hanselman at:
[http://www.hanselman.com/blog/Windows8ProductivityWhoMovedMy...](http://www.hanselman.com/blog/Windows8ProductivityWhoMovedMyCheeseOhThereItIs.aspx)

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jumblesale
It's funny to see two threads on the front page contrasting 'continuing the
Windows 8 vision' with 'Microsoft u-turn'. I doubt many outside of Redmond are
going to conform to the former viewpoint.

~~~
Avshalom
On the other hand "returning a single visual affordance" is a hell of a cry
from a u-turn.

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antonapa
My grandpa and grandma bought a Win8 machine. Worst day of my life - trying to
explain to them how EVERYTHING worked was/is impossible. They don't even
understand basic navigation since they switched computers. I've been using
computers for roughly 20 years and still haven't found an effective way to
make use of Metro. I just go win+d and use keyboard commands.

Metro is okay on mobile devices but laptops and other computers should have
the option to boot directly to desktop.

~~~
assemble
My grandma loves her new Windows 8 computer. She hasn't called me for help at
all since she got it--a vast improvement over her old Mac laptop and XP
desktop.

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mtgx
I don't get it. Why are they doing this? This is not what people have been
asking for. Are they just doing this so the headlines say "Microsoft brings
back the start button" and trick people into buying Windows machines again?

Because it's clearly just for show, and doesn't resolve any of the issues
people have had with Metro on a desktop PC.

~~~
pixie_
Everyone is asking for it. The entire Metro UI is one gigantic design mistake.
Hell people were complaining about it an entire year before Windows 8 was
released. Since then it's been like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

~~~
jamesgeck0
This isn't exactly what people are asking for. While showing the start button
at all is an improvement, most people would prefer that the mode shift from
desktop to metro didn't happen.

