
Biggest amateur-built sub sinks – owner is suspected of killing passenger - revelation
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/08/biggest-amateur-built-sub-sinks-owner-is-suspected-of-killing-passenger/
======
mikeyouse
There seems to be a lot of confusion about what's implied and what's known. I
think I've IDed an accurate timeline:

19:00 - Madsen and journalist depart for a trial run for a story that she's
writing.

22:30 - Madsen claims he dropped the journalist off at this time, at a
restaurant at the North end of the island.

02:30 - Journalist's husband reports her missing.

02:50 - Repeated attempts to reach the sub via radio are unsuccessful.

03:40 - Sub is reported missing by the police.

07:00 - General alarm set for Baltic, instructing all vessels to look for the
sub.

10:15 - Sub spotted by Harbor Master in Koge Bay, South of where it was meant
to be. Harbor Master talks to Madsen who claims he hadn't been in contact due
to technical issues but is heading for harbor.

11:00 - Passing vessel sees the sub with Madsen on the tower. Madsen
disappears below deck, then returns to the tower and the sub begins to sink.
In 30 seconds, it's completely submerged and Madsen is rescued. Madsen tells
the rescuers that he was the only passenger.

17:45 - After interviewing the journalist's family and Madsen, Madsen is
placed under arrest for the death of the journalist. Madsen maintains that he
dropped her off near a restaurant at 22:30 the previous day.

It's indicated that the location where Madsen claimed to drop her off is
blanketed with security cameras (whose footage the police have). The sub has
been raised and will be inspected shortly. This isn't at all a case of "he
panicked when the sub sank", there's a nearly 12-hour gap in his known
location and even if you believe his story, the journalist that he dropped off
at a restaurant hasn't been seen in a few days now.

~~~
wodenokoto
This story is developing extremely fast and is ripe for an episode of a crime
show.

The sub now been initially inspected and the police reports that nobody - dead
or alive - was found inside.

To add to the mystery, police reports that Mr. Madsen has changed his
explanation, but the police will not clarify in what way.

Management of the restaurant say they have not noticed a submarine (!) but
have handed over all surveillance recordings to the police.

~~~
passivepinetree
Do you have a source for this? I'm interested in following along as well.

~~~
wodenokoto
Like sibling I'm keeping up to date via the Danish National Radios (think BBC)
news site.

Here's the latest development: Sub was sailing around without lights on in
heavily trafficked water, causing a near collision [1]

[1] [http://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/fragtskib-kolliderede-
naest...](http://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/fragtskib-kolliderede-naesten-med-
ubaad-sejlede-uden-lanterner)

------
_delirium
Given the fairly clear-cut factual dispute, I can't imagine this won't be
resolved one way or another fairly soon. Madsen claims he dropped off the now-
missing passenger at 10:30pm before going back out on the sub. Investigators
suspect that he didn't, and she sank with the sub. Since the sub's been
located, and in fairly shallow water, investigators should be able to
determine whether there's a body inside it or not soon.

~~~
loeg
Really shallow! 22 feet. That's within the range they let uncertified divers
scuba at.

~~~
ramses0
"Uncertified divers escorted by an experienced, certified diver / instructor
and after a safety and equipment briefing."

You probably meant "divers with a basic SCUBA certification" (open water,
~30ft depth and conditions similar to your previous dives)

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
I think most _Open Water Dive_ certifications are to a recommended depth of
about 18 metres / 60 feet, and _Advanced Open Water Dive_ certificates are to
a depth of about 30 metres / 100 feet.[1]

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Open_Water_Diver](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Open_Water_Diver)

~~~
ramses0
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diver_certification#European_a...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diver_certification#European_and_ISO_standards)

12m and 20m are basic recommendations listed here. I seem to remember 30ft and
100ft (plus following tables / computers) as the recommended limits.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
Thank you for linking to that. It would seem my knowledge is outdated by 17
years. I've noticed recently I've claimed knowledge of something only to
realise it was circa 20 years ago, at which point I then loudly blurt out
"Back in _my_ day!".

I have a recreational dive certificate issued by NASDS Australasia in 2000.
Looks like NASDS Australasia has since faded from view, and NASDS USA joined
with SSI around 1999.

It appears SSI adhere to ISO 24801[1]

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuba_Schools_International#Re...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuba_Schools_International#Recreational_diving_certifications)

------
jacquesm
I posted this yesterday when the news first broke
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14993089](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14993089)),
it looks quite bad, what are the chances of the journalist going missing
within the same 24 hours of the sub sinking in front of a bunch of witnesses
_after_ the guy goes back down to reappear just as it sinks. Subs are after
all _made to sink_ , it should be pretty easy for the designer/builder of the
sub to make it sink on command, the hatch being open will do the rest.

At a guess they won't find the journalist inside, Madsen is way too smart to
not realize that the sub was sinking in shallow water and would be lifted
promptly, but in spite of that I don't have much hope of her still being
alive.

It's a real pity, Copenhagen Space Orbitals and Madsen as a person were quite
the inspiration source for many and to see it end like this is harsh. Reminds
me of the Reiser case, it took a while for the truth to come out there too.

~~~
oh_sigh
If he claimed that he dropped her off at the restaurant, why would he even
bother sinking the sub?

~~~
jacquesm
At a guess because he didn't? If there is anything that would prove a crime he
might hope submerging the boat would erase the evidence. It's all way too
reminiscent of Hans Reiser trying to erase evidence of murder and pretending
he was smarter than the investigators. That did not end well.

~~~
pvaldes
There is not clear purpose in sinking it deliberately with the woman inside in
front of a lot of people and say that she was not here. Bones will remain and
everybody knows where is the sunken sub. Lets suppose instead that there was
(hypothetically) a lot of blood in the sub. To what extent would the evidence
be erased in salt water? could you find blood remains in sea lice/other
invertebrate's guts or in trapped water bags?

Going further in the idea, could the researchs analyze the biocenosis of
animals trapped inside the sub in search of an anormal number of species of
animals atracted by corpses? If there was blood or organic remains or a
missing/hidden corpse a lot of scavengers will detect it from Km and came in a
hurry.

~~~
jacquesm
How about electronic evidence? The previous locations of the sub for instance,
indicating where a body may have been dumped. There are many kinds of
evidence.

~~~
pvaldes
It would be circumstancial evidence only. Unless you find a body, traveling to
the points X, Y and Z is not a proof of murder. And even if you find it,
another person could have done this to incriminate this man or for unknown
motives. We don't know if the journalist had enemies.

Of course such info would be really useful to start a searching but a dumped
body can move with the sea currents so if is found in point X could have been
dumped (or drowned accidentally) in the point W in fact.

------
interfixus
Actually, there are _two_ amateur spacelaunch projects working out of
Copenhagen - both of them because of Peter Madsen. Copenhagen Suborbitals was
his original setup, from which he was ousted several years ago, reportedly
after repeated clashes of opinion and personality (Madsen is known to have a
temper which occasionally flares out of proportion).

Copenhagen Suborbitals and Madsen's new venture, Madsen Spacelab, were set to
perform test launches in the Baltic later this month - both having been
assigned the same area and different timeslots on the same day. The sub was
planned to sail towards the site - based off the island of Bornholm - this
weekend. It is now probably safe to assume that only the Suborbitals launch
will be going forward.

~~~
xorcist
Also interesting is this submarine's home page. It used to be owned by an
association of enthusiasts headed by Madsen, by earlier this year there was a
prolonged conflict regarding ownership which led to everyone else surrendering
their claims and transferring complete ownership to Madsen. The difficulties
look similar...

~~~
wutwutwutwut
Their page says 2015, not 2017. I assume you are talking about
[http://www.uc3nautilus.dk](http://www.uc3nautilus.dk).

------
danso
Someone I follow on Twitter [0] had tweeted about their missing colleague,
journalist Kim Wall, and I assumed it was connected to the this case. But I
didn't know that none of the current news reports had her name. I assume
that's a policy of the Danish police but it seems like that information could
aid the search for a missing person.

[0]
[https://mobile.twitter.com/Charress/status/89613387205167104...](https://mobile.twitter.com/Charress/status/896133872051671040)

~~~
cjg_
Her family has confirmed it is her that is missing. (Swedish source:
[http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/nqdMn/journalisten-
kim-w...](http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/nqdMn/journalisten-kim-wall-ar-
forsvunnen-efter-ubatshaveriet))

------
erowtom
Here is a live video of the sub:
[https://tv.aftonbladet.se/abtv/articles/1245?broadcastId=768...](https://tv.aftonbladet.se/abtv/articles/1245?broadcastId=768eea519f17a33705a81f6ea501cd3776ebe47d)

~~~
erowtom
Update: They are finally trying to breach in.

~~~
Animats
\- Looks like some guys are lowering the business end of a submersible trash
pump into the conning tower. There's a flat hose attached, but it hasn't
filled yet.

\- Flat hose just became round, so they're pumping out the sub. All this is
happening leisurely; looks like they're trying to do this with minimum damage.

\- This is just some of the port crew and a crew from a heavy crane company
preparing to move the thing. No emergency crews. They put the sub on a truck,
using a huge dockside crane, and towed it away. Any investigation has already
taken place or will be done elsewhere.

~~~
tyingq
No body on the sub: [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-
europe-40916787](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40916787)

------
chvid
Very sad if it turns out that he actually killed the woman. Peter Madsen is an
unofficial national hero.

------
kodis
This sounds a bit suspicious, but I can't imagine what motive Masden would
have for killing a journalist.

~~~
userbinator
I think the headlines are a bit sensationalised. I can't imagine he directly
killed her either; it's probably more likely he paniced when it started to
sink and fled, shortly realised afterwards that he had a passenger, and tried
to cover it up. I'm not saying he's innocent, but people in states of panic
can do very irrational things.

~~~
towb
The woman was reported missing to the police early morning when she didn't
come home/was heard from the night before, so she was reported missing hours
before the sub sank.

~~~
dmix
Police are asking if witnesses saw her after 16:00. The submarine set sail
3hrs later around 19:00. It sank the next day at 11:00.

That means she was probably last seen or heard from that afternoon a few hours
before the sub launched.

~~~
lillesvin
There's an image floating about of her in the sub with Peter, so there's no
doubt that she's been on the sub.

Edit: Here: [http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/kim-isabel-forsvundet-i-
ubaadsdra...](http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/kim-isabel-forsvundet-i-
ubaadsdrama/6775956)

------
dghughes
I guess since the sub was only 40GT (gross tonnage) it didn't have an
Automatic Identification System (AIS) on it only ships over 300GT require an
AIS.

Even if it did I wonder if an AIS operates separate from the ship's radio
system.

You can track ships by their AIS and some website sell historical data to show
where a ship has been.

[https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:10.2/cente...](https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:10.2/centery:56.1/zoom:6)

------
Iv
Fuck.

Copenhaguen Suborbitals was a fantastic item to talk about to convince people
that hobbyists can do great things. Now there will be a crime investigation
linked to it? Damn.

That feels like when I read about Pistorius crime...

~~~
adamtulinius
CS and Peter Madsen split up ages ago, and have been working on separate
rockets ever since. So no, this isn't in any way related to Copenhagen
Suborbitals.

~~~
discodave
Just because you're innocent doesn't mean you won't get dragged into the mud
when somebody else does something dumb.

------
dogma1138
Isn't this the same guy who want's to launch private/amateur suborbital
flights with human passengers?

~~~
clan
Yes. With himself as the first passenger.

------
mongol
This is one of the weirdest news stories lately.

~~~
ajross
There are almost 2000 nazis holding a protest in Virginia as we speak. The
president threatened a nuclear first strike last week, then figured he's
threaten a "military option" against Venezuela (Venezuela!?) yesterday just
for kicks.

This bit of weird comic relief doesn't even make the top ten, sorry.

~~~
mschuster91
>There are almost 2000 nazis holding a protest in Virginia as we speak

Said nazis actually murdered one protestor and injured multiple others by
mowing them down with cars. What happened there is bordering on insanity...
and Trump didn't even try to distance himself from the nazis who voted him in
in the first place.

~~~
tpallarino
Pretty sure he did: [http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/22/politics/donald-trump-
disavow-...](http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/22/politics/donald-trump-disavow-
groups-new-york-times/index.html)

~~~
ajross
That's a link from almost a year ago. The complaint yesterday was that Trump
engaged in a series of "bothsidesism" tweets condemning the violence but not
the racism. He kept going back to the well over the day because he'd forgotten
stuff (e.g. he talked about the dead cops in the helicopter crash but not the
dead woman killed by the driver) without actually addressing the root cause.
And one of his comments had a bleedingly obvious dog whistle ("we should
cherish our heritiage" or the like) which called out his _support_ for the
white nationalists (and yes, they got this message: multiple posts on e.g.
stormfront celebrated this).

------
burntrelish1273
IANAL: How culpable are the authorities for certifying this craft, ie,
reviewing engineering designs, inspections during build and post-build
verifying control systems' fail-safes functionality, for passengers?

------
hellbanner
I hate "is suspected" \-- without saying _who_ suspects. It's a weird kind of
programming, expecting readers to trust the authority of the publication
without all of the facts.

~~~
darkstar999
It is explained in the first paragraph. You can't expect the headline to have
every detail.

------
zapperdapper
"amateur-built sub". It was always going to end in tears...

------
pvaldes
Another hypothetical explanation could be the woman boycotting the sub and
them fleeing the area

> he said that he had dropped the woman off Thursday evening near where they
> had departed from, around 10:30pm. But no one had been able to reach the
> woman or establish her whereabouts.

I said nothing, them. Different situation.

------
juiyout
What a good way to sabotage a project. Not only destroy the product but also
the reputation of the owner.

Why did the journalist lie about writing for Wired again?

Could it be someone other than the journalist who got onboard with Madsen? How
would we verify?

Could we determine that the tank failure was not a sabotage?

Is it possible we eventually find the body of journalist neither in the ocean
nor in the submarine?

~~~
tyingq
>Why did the journalist lie about writing for Wired again?

She probably didn't lie. She's a freelance writer that has written for many
notable publications.

Many freelancers write "on spec", meaning they intend to submit it somewhere,
but don't have a contract to do the work. So "writing a story for wired"
wouldn't be an odd thing to say if that's who you intended to push it to.

