

Why Publishing on the Windows Phone is Like Walking Barefoot On Broken Glass - Beat-O
https://toshl.com/blog/why-publishing-on-the-windows-phone-marketplace-is-like-walking-barefoot-on-broken-glass/
Our story of why publishing on the Windows Phone Marketplace is horrible in many, many ways. How arbitrary and moralistic is the certification policy, the numbers are low, international developers ignored... The list goes on. We'd be happy to hear about your experiences.
======
rogerbinns
What I find fascinating is the app store URL. It includes en-US and the app is
identified by a GUID so you have no chance of working out what it is other
than clicking on the link. Locales of fr-CA and fr-FR worked but not en-UK or
en-GB.

Apple has a country code, the app name and a numeric id. But the app name is
just decoration and is ignored, so you could easily mislead by putting in
anything you want. From the country code it looks like they believe only one
language is spoken in any country (eg I couldn't select between French and
English for Canada). The ids aren't in numeric order - probably some sort of
timestamp instead.

Google uses a descriptive URL without country or language parts, and then the
app is identified by package name (bundle id equivalent for the iOS crowd)
which looks fine to us techie folk and mostly follows being the DNS name with
some extra gunk such as com.rovio.angrybirdsspace.ads

Amazon Android URLs are amazon.com/<App Title>/dp/<ID> where the app title is
just decoration and can be changed to anything and ID is hexadecimal(ish).

They all have various issues. I think locale information as part of the URI
path is silly. Titles in the URLs is nice but open up social engineering
attacks. As a techie I like the Google approach of identification, but that
too is prone to social engineering (to my knowledge they do not verify a
correspondence to the publishing organization DNS). But it is prettier than
random numbers. A GUID is Microsoft's hammer and solution to everything. In
this case it just makes the URLs unnecessarily long.

~~~
jimueller
I disagree that the long URL is a problem because I don't see people typing in
mobile app store URLs. Either they search on the name or click a link. I do
agree that it would be nice to have an app name that matters somewhere in the
URL.

~~~
rogerbinns
I'm betting you are on iOS :-)

Links come from all over the place such as email and websites. I hope people
have got into the habit of checking links before clicking on them!

In any event on Android from a web browser not on your device you can go to
the Play store web site and install apps on your device.

It looks like you can do the same thing if you are on a system that has iTunes
installed for iOS although it is more clicks and possibly involves cables.

~~~
jimueller
Actually, I'm one of those Windows Phone guys and I run CyanogenMod on my HP
TouchPad, so I am familiar with the web versions of the Play store and Windows
Marketplace.

I find I usually click on App URLs from sites like Engadget, that I trust.

~~~
rogerbinns
On Planet Android there are frequent posts along the lines of "10 best apps
for X" (where X is something like exercise, cooking etc) or roundups of new
games for week. It is reasonable to assume the posts are written because they
are read.

Can you get an install to happen to your device when going to a Windows
Marketplace page on a desktop (without tethering your device etc)?

------
nnq
"Offensive" context example: Imagine you're a woman in some mostly-islamic-
and-not-so-women-rights-friendly country, you use this app on your phone and
bang, your husband sees the loading screen joke about "other toys" (and of
course he has an iphone and doesn't know about this app and the joke) ...only
he can't remember seeing those toys himself so... who did you buy them for
then? ...nex: let your ultra-violent imagination run wild

~~~
facorreia
I can see how this would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the
old ultra-violence.

------
dnuggets
Horrible article. As someone who has created and published a Windows Phone app
before, let me say that it is a pretty smooth experience. Developing with
C#/Silverlight is a breeze, and MS has a good developer portal set up. The
majority of the problems described in the article sound like the fault of the
developer, not Microsoft. If an app ever gets rejected during the submission
process, they list out all the reasons why it was rejected, along with the
parts of their guidelines which detail out the rules.

Also, "the page is confusing and the statistics poor"? I don't understand how
you could get confused by anything in the developer page. And how are download
numbers from any desired time range considered poor statistics?

It's frustrating that an article like this could get so much attention on HN.
If you want to have a nightmare of a time developing apps, try developing for
BlackBerry. Or deal with Apple's multi-week process of app submissions.

~~~
CWIZO
Have you even read the article? Most of the problems they had was because
Microsoft refuses to acknowledge my country. And there exists Microsoft
Slovenia FFS!

Also he clearly describes what's wrong with Silverlight and app submission
form (can't use space, only works in Safari, etc).

He also said that they didn't get any specific reasons as to why the app was
rejected.

~~~
the0x
Maybe it was rejected because your 'quip' sounds like your scanning a users
data for juice?

~~~
DejanPelzel
<https://toshl.com/privacy/>

~~~
the0x
I know you have a privacy policy; but I'm just saying someone in certification
could take it the wrong way.

------
latch
I'm not sure why they don't just pull the app. They admit that it's bringing
them virtually no users and it's a frustrating experience. With only a 1.3%
market share (1), what reasons can there be to bother with it?

(1) <http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/?p=32494>

~~~
pooriaazimi
Funny thing is that the ancient, discontinued Windows Mobile has 2.9% market
share, more than twice of that of Windows Phone 7 Mobile Pocket edition,
released October 2010 (21 months ago)!

~~~
Mythbusters
It took android a couple of years after it was launched to actually take
off...

~~~
SwellJoe
That's inaccurate. HTC had a record-setting quarter with the introduction of
the G1 at the end of 2008, and the Dream was also a bestselling device. By the
second year Android was outselling iPhone (which had been the fastest selling
phone in history up to that point). Android was, by all reasonable measures,
an explosive and rapid success. One could argue it took a few months to "take
off", but its sales numbers have vastly outpaced Windows Phone, even from the
very first months. By the time we were 21 months into the story it was obvious
to anybody paying attention that Android was going to be Apple's primary
competition in the smart phone market.

Windows Phone is a flop. It may be good (I wouldn't know). But it is
demonstrably not popular.

~~~
majormajor
It's fantastic.

Either it'll eventually take off, or else either Apple or Google will copy all
the good ideas and I'll switch back. Either way works for me, frankly.

(Well, no, that's not entirely true. I'd prefer it take off next year and
Nokia survives intact, because nobody else is making hardware that isn't
hopelessly bland looking.)

~~~
tluyben2
What's fantastic about it? I have a new Lumia (I make apps) and it's really
not very great. The hardware is nice, but the software... It looks nice at
first but it happens to annoy me no end compared to iOS / Android after a
while. I still cannot put my finger on it what that is. It's also massively
instable for me; someone here told me that must be hardware issues so I had it
replaced; same issues. 3 out of 5 times when someone calls me and I decline
the phone simply reboots. Two different phones, latest OS version. Metro is
very inefficient with screen space (I'm a coder, so 'normal' folk might not
care about that) and it feels very awkward and instable; I see the Vodafone
logo far too often (which happens after a reboot, if you have Vodafone).

Anyway; what do you find fantastic about it?

~~~
majormajor
Comparing my Lumia 900 to my old Evo (HTC):

I greatly prefer the look of the tiles to the widgets/apps mismatch on the
home page. And the ability to be able to pin so many different things to the
home page from inside of apps, instead of going to a separate "add widgets"
section, is very useful... I don't have to think about "oh I should see if
this app has a widget I can pin."

I've found the Skydrive Office integration to work much better than the Google
Docs app Google provided for Android. Faster loading, better controls, and the
ability to pin stuff to the start page with ease. OneNote is also the best
note management app on a phone I've ever used.

I really like how they did the "people hub" thing of centralizing all the
info/connections you have about someone in one place. (Though it's annoying
that the messaging app doesn't support FB "messages", just FB "chat", so I
also have the FB app installed in case someone sends me one of those.)

The overal design language is great. (For a good example of a third party app
getting it, compare the Android Weatherbug app's UI with the WP7 version.)

I really prefer the use of vertical scrolling on the home page to swiping
left/right to get to other home pages—I always forgot about stuff that wasn't
on the home page with Android, and find a quick flick to scroll down my whole
home page a much better way of seeing everything I want in front of me.

And in my case, it's been far more stable than my Evo ever was.

My biggest complaint is that the gmail client isn't as good.

~~~
tluyben2
I agree about OneNote; I always liked that. I'll check out weatherbug.
Vertical scrolling versus swiping I guess is taste; I find it very annoying to
do that quick flick for some reason. But that's just taste.

The email client (the native one; i'm not sure if you mean another one?) is
horrible. And that's one of the things I cannot wrap my head around; this is
the company who makes the most sold email client/server software in the world
right? The native email client is simply buggy and when used as gmail highly
instable (I have over 100.000 mails in my inbox; it just crashes randomly). I
drank the gmail koolaid and i'm used to it now; I never throw away and I don't
use folders. The WP email client really doesn't like that...

------
jpxxx
It know it's one of those irrational "the things you can't say on TV are the
things you can't say on TV" kind of situations, but sexual innuendo and
financial software don't mesh.

~~~
sp332
I know, I thought it was a bit too much. They really can't see how some people
might be offended?

~~~
amishforkfight
Who would get offended by that? It's not even close to offensive.

~~~
jpxxx
No, it's not offensive at all. But software can cast a net across seven
billion people and there are plenty who would be upset at the idea of even the
slightest innuendo. It's irrational, it's not fun, and it's kind of a sad
commentary on humanity, but these are the rules of the game.

~~~
ralfn
The rules themselves can also be offensive. I know Apple blocked the free
streaming app of the public tv here in holland originally.

The government was pissed, and considering legislation because the fact the
app was not allowed was considered to be offensive. The app is allowed now, as
an 18+ app.

And honestly, thats what we should do. Sue, legislate and full out war of the
whole concept of these kind of policies. Stores playing culture police sounds
like part of a dysotopian nightmare.

And the rules are so so so American. Sex is bad. Violence is good. Lying about
products is allowed, but oh dear if kids get to see a niple.

The weird thing is, i doubt Apple realizes just how offensive their guidelines
are themselves. Ah well, thell have their day in court.

------
ChrisNorstrom
Windows might not be worth it for most developers. But it can be very worth
while for a few.

Some months ago we had someone post how well their app was doing on Windows
Marketplace vs Android's and Apple's simply because there's so little
competition. In Apple and Andriod's marketplaces their app was just one out of
thousands but it was so much easier to find and advertise on Windows'
Marketplace that the Windows phone sold the most units of all 3. Their windows
phone app made the developer more money than the other 2 combined.

So it all depends on what you're developing and who your target market is.
Despite the tiny market share and other problems, Windows Phone users aren't
app-phobic. They want apps too.

I am envious of your patience and persistence. However, I'm confused about
your refusal to censor yourself.

Rather than get rid of unnecessary syncing messages referring to sex toys you
instead refused to publish the app in China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Saudi
Arabia, Qatar, Iraq, United Arab Emirates? All because you didn't want to
censor yourself? Who are you trying to impress? You're a business, not a
freedom fighter. You're preventing people in other countries from enjoying
your app. Why punish the people of a country based on the controlling
manipulative laws their politicians put in place. Everyone's country is
imperfect.

~~~
LancerSykera
Chris, I think you missed the part that _they don't know_ why the app is
considered immoral. They're just making a guess that it's that particular
message. If they take it out, and the app is still immoral, then what?

~~~
yen223
I can't speak for other countries, but for Malaysia, that sentence alone
probably won't get the app into any trouble.

I have a feeling this is a case of somebody at Microsoft erring too much on
the side of caution.

------
Metrop0218
So I posted an app in the market place that got rejected the first time
because I didn't include a privacy policy. I forget how much detail was
included in the feedback when they told me this but it didn't take long for me
to fix it and resubmit it. While I will agree it'd be nice if they sped the
process up, its not slower than the competitions and it seems be about on par.
Being on par isn't great though, and they should seek to excel and be better
than apples process. Not sure how much that would help but its definitely a
place to start. Anyways I'll be releasing another major update for my app soon
so we'll see how it goes.

------
BadassFractal
Does anybody have a positive experience with publishing to the Windows app
store that they'd like to share?

~~~
recoiledsnake
Here's one
[http://www.fourbrosstudio.com/taptitude/post/2012/04/17/Tapt...](http://www.fourbrosstudio.com/taptitude/post/2012/04/17/Taptitude-
a-Windows-Phone-Success-Story.aspx)

~~~
tysonjennings
That's a pretty worthless example with nothing to compare it against. Had the
developers released it on iOS or Android and had more success on Windows Phone
then you would have an argument otherwise you really don't.

------
deerpig
So much for Balmer's "developers developers developers developers developers
developers developers developers developers developers developers developers
developers developers...."

~~~
Mythbusters
Windows Phone 8: Gaining Apps, Software Developer Support:
[http://www.thevarguy.com/2012/07/12/windows-phone-8-apps-
mob...](http://www.thevarguy.com/2012/07/12/windows-phone-8-apps-mobile-
software-developers/)

~~~
Tloewald
Windows 8 -- sorry if you bought into WP7... But this time...

------
batgaijin
They say it's the same problem they would have with the apple/andorid store.

Big corp doesn't have nice ways of changing shit, this isn't specific to M$.

~~~
mcantelon
android ecosphere's pretty light-handed.

~~~
batgaijin
I think the exemption of GPL'd apps because of how they modify them is the
primary one that makes me so angry...

------
roxtar
To me it looks like when they published their app from the US, they got all
valid reasons for a rejection. The fact that Toshl's app was present for an
year with all these faults is not a good argument for being automatically
accepted.

~~~
facorreia
Remember it was first published under local Microsoft's own account. It
probably wasn't even subject to the same review process.

------
siger
Not impressed by this rant. The author admits some of the problems also
happened on the App Store, and complains MS won't help them promote the app at
this time. The reasons for which the udpated app was rejected at first seem
valid to me (though specific info should have been given for the inappropriate
content...).

Is it really expected that a developer should be able to move an app between
accounts? Were they not aware of the limited audience of WP users? This should
not come as a surprise after the second version of their app is done.

I will however agree the publishing portal is poorly implemented.

------
ginko
Walking barefoot on broken glass actually isn't that hard.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQIVPonHhx8#t=7m59s>

------
SlipperySlope
Could it be that the trouble with developing for a mobile OS lumped in the
'other' category is that it is not a major ecosystem?

iPhone and Android app stores are well-worn paths for hundreds of thousands of
developers world wide - right or wrong?

------
msh
Its not true when they write: World outside the few largest markets does not
exist

I am from denmark (hardly a large market) and had no problems creating a dev
account and publishing apps but they are correct that not supporting as many
countries as apple or google is wierd, but in the beginning android did not
want to sell apps to danes either.

------
errnoh
To be honest the app itself looks rather awesome.

Not sure what's the best way to generate users on WP but I do hope you get
enough users and continue to support the platform.

Probably one of the most aesthetic apps on WP7, I for one will be using this
from now on.

------
mihahribar
VP of Windows Phone at Microsoft just responded to the article in the
comments. Looks like the blogpost made quite a splash.

------
alexeiz
What's "Windows Phone" and why should anyone care?

------
1010011010
Have they decided to drop Windows Phone yet?

~~~
spaghetti
At least when they do the screen won't shatter!!!!1

------
mkramlich
Link title should add "in Slovenia". It's more accurate, and it will save
HNers time by giving a clue as to probable major contributor to the issues
experienced.

~~~
jsnell
Sorry, but that's just totally wrong. They had 1 or 2 issues caused by being a
Slovenian company (not being allowed to publish apps, and the inability to
switch the owner of an app). All the other complaints would apply to any new
developer.

\- Even after registering a US company they couldn't make an account for it,
even with a US credit card.

\- The certification process was horribly broken. The app had already been
approved once, but now it suddenly got into a vortex of rejections. One reason
at the time, rather than an up front list with everything wrong with it.

\- They report the publishing tools as being crap.

\- Microsoft just fucked over their WP7 developers and users by making sure
that WP7 apps can't get any visibility in the app store.

That last point should be particularly chilling. Some people have argued that
the horribly mishandled WP7->WP8 migration isn't that big a deal for existing
WP7 users. They'd say that developers will continue targeting WP7 for
everything except games that need native code, or apps that need hardware
features like NFC. Well, clearly it's not so. If you want an app to have any
visibility, you'll need to target Windows 8.

(This also looks like yet another giant middle finger directed at Nokia.
They're going to be forced to sell WP7 on low end phones for years, since the
minimum hardware specs of WP8 are just too high at the moment. And now it
becomes clear that MS is actively trying to drive developers off these devices
onto the non-existing ones.)

