

Do You Really Have to Go to College? - danso
http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/07/do-you-really-have-to-go-to-college/?src=recg

======
xarien
I met the love of my life and the mother of my child in college.

The problem with these articles and the types of comments on sites such as HN
is that people neglect the fact that college is an experience, and a highly
subjective one at that. Too often do technocrats forget that college isn't
simply an investment, but for many, it is also a consumption good, and THAT IS
OK.

Sure, college isn't necessarily going to make you the best programmer in the
world. But, if one looks past the facade of a pure investment brought upon by
our economy and media, there lies a rich experience in diversity and the
exposure to the liberty of choice (at least in America).

~~~
w1ntermute
You can easily be exposed to diversity and choice without going hundreds of
thousands of dollars into debt.

~~~
billeh
The best I've heard is "At least you will be able to think critically." Was
that really left out of the previous 12 years' curriculum?

~~~
RougeFemme
Unfortunately, in the US, with so many public schools striving to meet
benchmark scores on standardized tests that require little critical thinking.
. .the answer is yes, that's increasingly left out of the previous 12 years'
curriculum.

~~~
w1ntermute
This is largely FUD in well-to-do districts. Having gone through the public
school system after NCLB was passed in a district consisting primarily of
upper middle class students, I rarely heard NCLB or the related standardized
tests mentioned. And when I did, it was in the form of a derogatory remark
from the teachers.

Of course, things may be very different for people from other socioeconomic
backgrounds.

------
klibertp
A quote from "Coders at Work" - one that I read every time I feel scared or
not "good enough".

Seibel: And you very briefly went to CMU after you finished high school.

Zawinski: Yeah. What happened was, I hated high school. It was the worst time
of my life. And when I was about to graduate I asked Fahlman if he’d hire me
full-time and he said, “No, but I’ve got these friends who’ve got a startup;
go talk to them.” Which was Expert Technologies—ETI. I guess he was on their
board. They were making this expert system to automatically paginate the
yellow pages. They were using Lisp and I knew a couple of the people already
who had been in Fahlman’s group. They hired me and that was all going fine,
and then about a year later I panicked: Oh my god, I completely lucked into
both of these jobs; this is never going to happen again. Once I no longer work
here I’m going to be flipping burgers if I don’t have a college degree, so
what I ought to do is go get one of those.

The plan was that I’d be working part-time at ETI and then I’d be going to
school part time. That turned into working full-time and going to school full-
time and that lasted, I think, six weeks. Maybe it was nine weeks. I know it
lasted long enough that I’d missed the add/drop period, so I didn’t get any of
my money back. But not long enough that I actually got any grades. So it’s
questionable whether I actually went. It was just awful. When you’re in high
school, everyone tells you, “There’s a lot of repetitive bullshit and
standardized tests; it’ll all be better once you’re in college.” And then you
get to your first year of college and they’re like, “Oh, no—it gets better
when you’re in grad school.” So it’s just same shit, different day—I couldn’t
take it. Getting up at eight in the morning, memorizing things. They wouldn’t
let me opt out of this class called Introduction to Facilities where they
teach you how to use a mouse. I was like, “I’ve been working at this
university for a year and a half—I know how to use a mouse.” No way out of
it—“It’s policy.” All kinds of stuff like that. I couldn’t take it. So I
dropped out. And I’m glad I did.

Then I worked at ETI for four years or so until the company started
evaporating. We were using TI Explorer Lisp machines at ETI so I spent a lot
of my time, besides actually working on the expert system, just sort of
messing around with user-interface stuff and learning how those machines
worked from the bottom up. I loved them—I loved digging around in the
operating system and just figuring out how it all fit together. I’d written a
bunch of code and there was some newsgroup where I posted that I was looking
for a job and, oh, by the way, here’s a bunch of code. Peter Norvig saw it and
scheduled an interview. My girlfriend at the time had moved out here to go to
UC Berkeley, so I followed her out.

------
chacham15
I understand and possible agree with the general idea, but I feel that this
article takes it way overboard. If you want to talk about coding use
statistics relevant to coders, not general statistics.

> Furthermore, some recent college graduates are not faring too well in the
> job market.

This is not true in my experience for coders. Go to silicon valley and therell
be many startups vying to get your attention.

> If you’d like to learn how to code, you don’t need a $150,000 piece of paper
> to tell you that you can.

That isnt what the paper signifies. It signifies that you have reached at
least a certain level of education in the field. More importantly, it
signifies this to other people who dont know you at all. Even pg wants to know
what school you went to on the yc application. (you might argue that people
who drop out still get in, yes, but if they had had that credential, their
likelyhood would probably have increased, otherwise, why would yc ask?)

~~~
AutoCorrect
yeah, that piece of paper is kinda like the HS Diploma that those 80% of
graduates who can't read received (NY article earlier in the week). The
college degree is just as useless. How many people remember everything, or
even a large portion of what they read in college? Or still remember all of
the lectures? Even going to college and getting a degree is no guarantee that
the person will be capable of doing the job.

~~~
chacham15
What is the probability that a person without a diploma can read? You see, its
a credential that means something to people who do not know the person. Even
if the difference between the probability a person can read given a diploma
and one without is shrinking, it still has value. Furthermore, I remember a
lot of what I learned in college. What I dont fully remember, I still remember
the basic concept. This aids me in a general understanding of what is
possible, knowledge of possible solutions, and furthermore, if I actually need
to know more detail about it it would be very fast to learn what I had
forgotten (like a cache miss).

------
NateDad
Stop with this no college crap.

Here's the facts: if you have no work experience and no college education,
you're not even going to get a phone interview with any software company.
You're just not. None of the companies I've worked for (from tiny startups to
1000+ person software companies) would look twice at your resume. They
wouldn't even get so far as printing it out so they could throw it away.

You are not Mark Zuckerberg. You are not Bill Gates. Don't try to pretend you
are. If you're incredibly lucky, you'll get a job as an unpaid intern at a
medical device company writing Delphi for their internal systems. You may be
able to work your way up from there... but it'll suck.

College was FUN. I learned a lot there. I wouldn't skip it for the world.
Hell, for much of my 20's I wished I could go back to college to do it some
more.

I went to a private, expensive technical school, and graduated with, yes,
$30,000 in debt. If you're as smart as you think you are, you can get grants
and scholarships to reduce the cost of college. And then you can pay it off a
few hundred dollars a month like everyone else does... and you'll laugh,
because a few hundred dollars a month isn't that bad when you're getting paid
$70k+

I promise you, you'll learn a lot in college. You'll have fun. Don't listen to
all the statistics about not being able to get a job or pay off loans... those
are general statistics for all graduates that include all the philosophy and
English and history of music majors.

You'll be graduating with SKILLS and KNOWLEDGE that can be directly applied to
the JOB that you get because you are QUALIFIED, and because software companies
troll job fairs at technical colleges looking for bright stars like you that
will work their butts off for half the price of the old neckbeards with kids
that want to go home at 5pm.

GO TO COLLEGE. IT'S AWESOME.

~~~
quesera
Working within the system is always the easiest approach, but it produces very
predictable results. Some people don't get the same affirmation from following
the expected path.

There are very strong arguments for and against college. The right choice
depends on the temperament of the person. Unfortunately that person is rarely
equipped with all of the information/maturity to make a good choice for
themselves. This is a failing of parents and schools, who themselves generally
don't know any better.

But the crux of the argument is that the default choice is very very often the
(or a) bad one. It's an important conversation to have.

Edit: your "here's the facts" line is overemphasized, and demonstrably
incorrect.

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gkarthik92
I'm from India and I personally feel that India is not yet ready to accept non
college graduates. No one acknowledges a non college graduate here. College in
India is pretty much mandatory. In such an environment even though college
education doesn't make a very big practical difference, it is important for
one to go to college to achieve some kind of a footing for future ventures,
either a job or a start up. Although this trend is slowly changing with
students starting up at the college level and below. Wherever the students
feel that the college material they are provided with is not sufficient enough
they are looking out for online courses and other material from the internet.

~~~
dinkumthinkum
Well, India has a real cultural issue with regard to education. There's just
something odd about the idea that a child or young teenager that does not get
the very top grades in sort of a "scary" educational system being basically a
loser at life. There seems to be very little room for people to either
reinvent themselves at, even, 16, let alone in their 20s.

------
ldrex
That's especially true for Russia. The quality of russian university education
is extremely low. Youngsters go to uni in order to avoid mandatory enlistment.
Indeed, russian army is hell, composed of criminals. So, in some countries
(like, Russia) you really HAVE TO go to uni.

~~~
10098
> russian army is hell, composed of criminals

I wouldn't generalize like that. Russia is a big place. There are all sorts of
things happening, and it heavily depends on where you serve. My friend is in
Russian army right now, he has access to internet and posts on facebook
occasionally. He's doing pretty good and the people surrounding him are all
right.

~~~
oinksoft
_Kremlin Rising_ , slightly dated now (2005), has a very good chapter on this,
and I expect there are other more detailed works on the topic. For many
enlistees, it seems the Russian Army (I don't know how this is in other
branches) is a terrible place with a culture of physical and sexual abuse, not
unlike a good chunk of the US prison system.

------
radh
I think this really only applies to coding and other skill-type jobs. This
wouldn't work for finance, law, and other lucrative fields -- yet.

I'd like to see some case studies on someone who walks into Wall Street
without a degree. That'd be interesting.

~~~
jurassic
In some states it is still possible to sit for the bar without attending law
school. But who would hire you, when there's a glut of credentialed attorneys
with no job?

~~~
geebee
You pose a reasonable question - and I would agree that the ordinary path of
getting hired into a well paid first year associate job at a law firm would
probably be off the table.

But I also suspect a lot of people would hire you. The US has a glut of
lawyers, no doubt, but also a huge number of people who can't afford lawyers
(and are pretty screwed without them). If you were willing to work for $50 an
hour or less, I suspect you'd be booked up pretty quickly.

Another thing to keep in mind - I'm actually skeptical that law school is the
only good path to become a lawyer. Keep in mind how talented people from non-
CS fields can become at programming. A lot of people with degrees in math and
physics, or no degree for that matter, who study intensely can become truly
exceptional programmers.

Some people learn much faster than others, and some people are extremely good
and disciplined at self-study. Abraham Lincoln is probably the most famous
lawyer who never went to college or law school. Keep in mind, you still have
to pass the bar, and there are often apprenticeship requirements or other
educational requirements for the non-law school route. And (like the math or
physics major who becomes a programmer), many of these non-law school lawyers
might very well have impressive academic credentials in other fields.

------
busterarm
Also, if you have any interest in relocating to other countries, a degree is
in most cases a requirement.

~~~
stormbrew
This. Especially if you're a citizen of a country other than the US and hope
to have the career mobility to work in one of the American hotbeds. It will
severely limit your career for a very long time if you don't, especially if
your work history is difficult to prove.

~~~
contingencies
Utter rubbish, in my experience: I've done it with no degree, and ~7 years out
of the western workforce.

The US was OK but I much prefer Asia and Europe (for quality of life,
languages, art, history and conversation).

------
csomar
_The connection economy we live in today has had drastic effects on the
incentives and economics of education — yet it seems that colleges haven’t
really taken notice._

Obviously, Colleges didn't take notice because enrollment is still high and
people still bet on their degrees.

What I think colleges should do, is not reduce their tuition, but improve
their brand. It's not the degree that matters, it's the college that you
graduated from. If the quality of graduates of a certain college drops
significantly, this will affect the whole college graduates credibility.

If you are looking for a JOB (at a company), go and get a DEGREE. That's it.
The typical path. There is no creativity in this path. If you are looking to
become an ENTREPRENEUR and start businesses and stuff, I'd say give college a
shot (maybe a year or two) and then drop (if you don't like it).

There are many other ways to network beside college. But I'd say, give it a
shot.

------
jgh
What is with all of the anti-college articles that the New York Times
publishes? Almost every time I see one come up it's inevitably a NYT article.

~~~
jurassic
No doubt the scions of many middle and upper-middle class NYT readers are
having a hard time seeing the ROI on their liberal arts educations. It's sad
how many people I know who finished college, moved back home, and ended up
with the same waitressing job they had in high school. And misery loves
company.

------
M4v3R
I was disappointed with the article, because the title led be to believe, that
there is some college that will teach Go in their classes.

~~~
zanny
Many colleges in the upper level electives will let you use whatever language
you want, but if the prof doesn't know it don't expect help. I was using Scala
in my game programming class instead of Java like everyone else (since the
projects were targeting the JVM, I couldn't assume any other environment be
present, and I had done plenty of C/C++ elsewhere and wanted to try something
new). I got an A, and the prof only once read my code and said "I really need
to read some documentation on Scala!"

~~~
dinkumthinkum
Students, and others in this industry in general, tend to make such a big deal
about using the latest hyped languages. I think too much so. It's
"impressive," I guess. Having a foundation in computer science means you
understand that most of the concepts in these "new" languages have been well
worn since the 60s, just packaged in new ways, incremental improvements.
There's also something to be said, in my view, for Turing completeness. This
is not anything about your story, just a related tangent.

~~~
Arelius
I love the serious response to a comment posed as a joke due to the poor
capitalization of the original title. So much so that I feel on the fence
about even pointing it out.

~~~
dinkumthinkum
Well, nerds can find interesting discussions in almost anything. :)

~~~
zanny
Sometimes I see :) and think it is the mast of a sailboat. Discuss!

------
dinkumthinkum
We sure never see this topic on HN. :) Of course you don't have to go. And of
course, getting stuck working in the restaurant business until you're 40
because you started working their because it was quick money out of high
school and easier than going to college is always an option too.

Now, lest anyone get the wrong idea I do not mean to imply that one path leads
to the other. But also, please let's not pretend that Gates and Zuckerberg are
"typical" college dropouts either. Maybe, the restaurant kids are more common
than Gates type people, eh?

\-- Anyway, seriously, if you are a recent HS grad and choose not to go to
college and instead decide to give Devbootcamp $12,200 for an RoR course ...
I'm sure they have a nice product ... But I will also like to contact you
regarding the small matter of a bridge I would like to sell.

~~~
revuniversal
You can learn quite a bit from just the Internet, a bit of ambition, and a
willingness to say "I don't know, but I will figure it out." Sure, there are
foundational concepts that you will miss, but I haven't noticed their absence
yet. Besides, if I'm missing some kind of CS knowledge I will buy the book,
ask the web, and take the heat. I'm sure college is great, but is it necessary
in this field, at this time? My personal experience says no. I'm not the best
dev, and I have some things to learn, but so do the guys with papers.

~~~
Arelius
Agreed. As an interviewer, I'm constantly disappointed with the skills of CS
grads. Many years in industry show me that if there is anything to be learned
about programming in college, it in a field other than CS.

Now, that's not strictly true, but the fact that we've accepted more non-CS
grads, or non-grads than CS grads I think says something about the state of
our CS education.

