
Snowden ally Appelbaum claims his Berlin apartment was invaded - pantalaimon
http://www.dw.de/snowden-ally-appelbaum-claims-his-berlin-apartment-was-invaded/a-17315069
======
grey-area
For some background as to why people like Appelbaum or Poitras might be so
paranoid, here he is describing the harassment he has suffered at the hands of
US border agents in the past (because of being involved in the Tor project):

[http://www.democracynow.org/2012/4/20/we_do_not_live_in_a](http://www.democracynow.org/2012/4/20/we_do_not_live_in_a)
[http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/17/long_before_helping_ex...](http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/17/long_before_helping_expose_nsa_spying)

This sort of impunity to harass civilians who have not committed any crime is
something you'd expect in a police state, not a functioning democracy. Sadly
it seems the UK and US have now joined the ranks of countries who employ this
sort of harassment routinely at the border.

~~~
foobarqux
It's not paranoia when it's actually happening.

He purportedly has video of the bag men. When he was in the US his girlfriend
woke up to another bag man watching her through night vision goggles,
presumably while his partner installed bugs in the apartment while Appelbaum
was out of town.

~~~
justin66
> bag man watching her through night vision goggles

Pretty sure the "bag man" idiom doesn't mean what you think it does.

~~~
foobarqux
My mistake. I meant something along the lines of black-bag-job-man.

------
wreegab
Stasi's Zersetzung: "The Stasi perfected the technique of psychological
harassment of perceived enemies known as Zersetzung. ... This often included
psychological attacks such as breaking into homes and messing with the
contents – moving furniture, altering the timing of an alarm, removing
pictures from walls or replacing one variety of tea with another"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi#Zersetzung](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi#Zersetzung)

It's just history repeating itself.

~~~
themodelplumber
The Stasi perfected the technique, but that doesn't mean that anybody who uses
it is on par with the Stasi. Psyching people out is natural human behavior.
Heck, even Arnold Schwarzenegger figured out that stealing Mike Katz' lucky
shirt before a competition might take off a few points.

Applebaum is probably less worried about his stuff being moved around to
harass him and more worried about obtaining new computer hardware and a new
place to live at this point. I really doubt that the main purpose of this
attack was harassment.

~~~
PavlovsCat
> Psyching people out is natural human behavior. Heck, even Arnold
> Schwarzenegger figured out that stealing Mike Katz' lucky shirt before a
> competition might take off a few points.

Arnold Schwarzenegger?
[http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1002-01.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1002-01.htm)
You cite _that_ guy as some kind of super centered human? ("even Arnold
Schwarzenegger")

Also, where does the power differential come into play? Arnold snagging the
shirt from a competitor, that's cute; but try an adversary with a near
unlimited budget and arsenal, and many, many, many people. Try being one
person, living in a foreign country because you would feel even more unsafe at
home.

This, is being a bully. Not as a "human", but as a machinery built of humans
(which can take on radically different properties btw). To bring up Arnold is
correct in a way, but not because it's "normal" in any sense other than
chimpanzees hunting others for fun and profit is "normal". Fuck normal. The
question is, do we at this point in time and going forward want that. That is
always the question. Some call it civilization, or decency.

And as for being on par with the STASI: [http://apps.opendatacity.de/stasi-vs-
nsa/english.html](http://apps.opendatacity.de/stasi-vs-nsa/english.html)

Your argument is kinda that it's not being the STASI because it's being a
normal human being. Just pause and think about that. By your logic not even
the STASI Zersetzung was actually STASI Zersetzung, because it's just normal
individuals doing what normal individuals do. There is nothing you could not
justify with that.

Fact is, if you were the target of this, you'd appreciate support, you'd
_love_ to see a change. But since you're not, you tell us what Appelbaum
probably cares most about. He talks about how he realized how surveillance
kills human relationships, how he lost many friends and even his girlfriend
because they could NOT stand that pressure.

And you tell us it's not harrassment... just astonishing. Just no.

~~~
themodelplumber
>You cite that guy as some kind of super centered human?

Where did I do that?

>And you tell us it's not harrassment... just astonishing. Just no.

Again you misread me. It may be harassment, but what was my point about
harassment? Read again please.

~~~
PavlovsCat
> Where did I do that?

by saying "even Arnold Schwarzenegger". What does the "even" mean, then?

Another interesting thought is that he actually stole the shirt to demoralize,
so for Zersetzungspurposes.

> what was my point about harassment?

That's it's "natural", and therefore not Zersetzung. Not really much of a
point if you ask me.

------
salient
They pick on this guy and harass him with every chance they get to "send him a
message" (they should know by now that doesn't work on him, but anyways). The
US government really is extremely petty and vengeful. And that's just one of
the many reasons why letting it have so much power over anyone in the world at
anytime through mass surveillance is so dangerous.

~~~
teddyh
The message is not meant for him, but for us. He is made into an example for
others.

------
TillE
There's quite a lot more in the original article, if you read German (or use
Google Translate):

[http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/spionage-skandal/jacob-
appelb...](http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/spionage-skandal/jacob-appelbaum-
zur-ueberwachung--eine-taktik-der-zersetzung-,23568638,25682272.html)

~~~
rurban
Interesting interview:

\- He obviously speaks german now quite fluently, so I assume he will stay in
Berlin, in a much safer country.

\- Obviously the CIA still tries to get hands on the Snowden data to know how
much and what exactly the journalists have, to be prepared. So they still
don't have this information. This could eventually lead to better NSA reforms,
as they still have to fear the worst.

~~~
TillE
> He obviously speaks german now quite fluently

I don't think so, it's probably a translation of an interview conducted in
English. Based on what I've seen of him in videos just a couple months ago,
he's learning a bit (he did use and mispronounce the word Zersetzung), but
probably nowhere near fluency by now.

He applied for a residence permit, but I'm not sure if he has it yet. It's
kind of interesting that he and Laura Poitras and a few others have all wound
up in Berlin. Obviously it's no perfect sanctuary, but it's probably still one
of the safest places to be for people doing this kind of work.

~~~
grey-area
Riiis you have been hellbanned. Contact admins and perhaps ask them what rule
exactly you contravened with this one comment - the hellbanning system here is
truly kafkian!

~~~
SamReidHughes
> Contact admins and perhaps ask them what rule exactly you contravened with
> this one comment

Being genuinely bad at posting would be one.

~~~
grey-area
Presumably you don't have show dead turned on, here is their only post (just
below here):

Why is this, when forces working with the German government itself can
apparently swoop in unannounced? How is there any advantage to living in
Germany? I'm genuinely interested in understanding.

~~~
SamReidHughes
I read the post. It's a bad post, and it could be a precursor to a toxic
account. It's got the tone of a bad attempt at trolling. (It's at least clear
the poster is either a bad troll or can't apply a modicum of critical thinking
of their own.) HN has other information it can take into account when hell-
banning somebody, like IP addresses, too. Go ahead and try making new accounts
and see if you get hell-banned. Set them up from cafes and the like if you're
worried about it being correlated with your IP address (and thereby treated as
less likely to be a bad account). I've done this quite a few times recently
and those accounts making one or two comments have never gotten hell-banned.

~~~
grey-area
Couldn't disagree more.

~~~
SamReidHughes
Of course not, I wouldn't have replied in the first place if I agreed with
you.

------
colanderman
Given his level or paranoia, I'm surprised he wouldn't have set up some sort
of security camera that continually uploads to Amazon S3 or something. Video
of these thugs would be much more valuable than the single bit of information
that an alarm gives.

~~~
sneak
Because S3 is totally out of the reach of these adversaries.

~~~
colanderman
That requires they (a) notice the camera, (b) dissect the software running it
to determine to where it's uploading (which might be a more secure
intermediary), (c) take action to delete the video, and (d) hope that he
doesn't have another service running which backs up the video _from_ S3 in
realtime.

Yes, the NSA _can_ do that, but it takes time and effort, and given that they
couldn't even find/disable one of his mundane alarm systems, it's likely that
the wouldn't have disappeared the video evidence.

~~~
dsl
...or have a small power outage or internet outage lasting a few hours.

------
atmosx
Probably US agents were trying to get access to some of Snowden's archive. I'm
not sure harassment was intended either.

I'm keen to say thought, that Snowden is _winning_ this as the time goes by
and NSA is loosing ground time and again. I just don't know how this whole
surveillance thing, will work out on the next elections. You have the Obama
administration clearly embarrassed but ultimately unwilling making any
substantial change in the patriot act or it's powers. On the other hand,
Republicans are the ones usually advocating greater surveillance, more police
state, etc. It's a full-frontal battle of central authority (Congress vs
Population) vs democracy.

Accepting the fact that NSA is _wrong_ would be admitting that Snowden's
ultimate sacrifice[1] was justified and welcomed, and that's even more
_expensive_ than putting an end on NSA's surveillance for a political team,
government or party.

[1] IMHO The guy did a huge sacrifice. I understand the controversy by some
overzealous _patriots_ to treat him as a traitor, but in my view he screwed
his life over something he believed.

~~~
venomsnake
It won't have any effect on the next elections except maybe a few people here
and there to be elected to champion for the rights.

The majority of the NSA programs were operated with both Republican and
Democratic blessing.

------
minimax
_A US Internet activist and one of the people with access to Edward Snowden 's
documents, has told a Berlin paper that his apartment was broken into, saying
he suspected US involvement._

GMAFB. The Snowden documents would be hugely valuable to _any_ government or
large criminal organization (think drug cartels) that could get their hands on
them. If you admit you have access to them you are painting a target on your
back for groups beyond just the US government.

~~~
ceejayoz
Large criminal organizations don't have to stick to the "sneak in and try to
be unnoticed" tactic as closely.

~~~
minimax
I'm not sure of that. One big theme in intelligence / counterintelligence is
that it isn't necessarily what you know. It's how you know what you know.
Secretly having a copy of the Snowden documents is much more valuable than
having a copy of the Snowden documents and everyone knowing that you have
them.

E.g. If I am the U.S. and I want to manage some agents in Iran, I might have
to alter my strategy if I know Iran has the Snowden docs. I think you can
s/Iran/Sinaloa Cartel/ and it still makes sense.

~~~
Crito
Is there much evidence that large criminal organizations care about the
standard themes of intelligence / counterintelligence?

~~~
dsl
The leadership of the Los Zetas Cartel, the largest and most powerful cartel
in Mexico, comes almost exclusively from special forces and intelligence
backgrounds.

According to a number of leaders of the Sinaloa Cartel that have been charged
in US courts, the CIA has been providing material support and training to The
Sinaloas since 2008 in an attempt to offset explosive growth of the Zetas.

~~~
Crito
Los Zetas are hardly famous for a subtle approach. Are they actually operating
like intelligence agencies?

It seems to me that even if they have the knowledge, they don't think it is
worth the effort in practice.

~~~
pkinsky
Los Zetas have built a country-spanning network of radio repeaters using
kidnapped engineers. They are clearly cognizant of information security.

[http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/11/zeta-
radio/](http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/11/zeta-radio/)

------
biafra
When I was looking for a flat in Berlin in 2003. I was given a key and the
address of an obviously not empty appartment. When I opened the door that was
clear immediatly.

Since then I alway change the lock in the main door. This has also the
advantage that I can go for something better than what the landlord deems
apropriate. Last time I went for EVVA 3KS. Is that still state of the art?

I am not saying this happened here.

~~~
nwh
> _Since then I alway change the lock in the main door._

I'd check your tenancy laws, that's certainly not legal in some countries. I
would be evicted if I did that.

~~~
biafra
Interesting. And frightning. So your landlord always has access to your home?
That is certainly different in Germany.

Are you allowed to install an alarm system and not give him the code?

He is not allowed to enter any time, I guess? Or is he?

~~~
nwh
Entering without my permission (or 2 weeks notice) is grounds for immediate
termination of my lease (see the link below). Installing an alarm system and
not giving them the code isn't covered, but I would be extremely unwise to do
that. There's a lot covering the tenant if the landlord does enter without
permission, and the only time I've had a problem with it lead to a lot of
voluntarily refunded rent. It's not really thought of as strange, though I
would prefer to have my own locks personally.

[http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rta1997207...](http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rta1997207/s70.html)

------
x0054
So, he had 4 alarms and not a single camera that streams video to an offsite
server? I am not saying he is lying or anything like that, just find my self
saying "WTF" when I read that.

~~~
PavlovsCat
Where did you read he _doesn 't_ have such a camera/stream?

~~~
x0054
The english article mentioned nothing about it. I can now see that there is a
German article with a lot more info. Sadly I do not read german and google
translate is a poor substitute. If he does have a stream, can some one link to
it, if it's public.

~~~
jlgaddis
It is not mentioned (in either the English article or the original German)
exactly what his "alarms" are. It is quite possible that (at least) one of
those involves recording video but we can't know for certain. In addition, I
certainly can't blame Appelbaum for not publicly describing just what his
"alarms" are.

Just because the article doesn't say that he has video does not mean that he
doesn't have it. In other words, as the saying goes, "Absence of evidence is
not evidence of absence!".

------
antocv
There are people who think they are doing a good job breaking and messing
people up.

Well payed people too, some are probably reading hacker news. Still working
and toiling at NSA/FRA whatever, and thinking "damn those plebians why cant
they understand what we do is cool is good, we mighty advanced than our
enemies"

------
tlrobinson
Besides intentionally sending a message, what were they thinking? This is the
guy who crosses borders with no hard drive in his laptop and the Bill of
Rights written to the block device of his USB thumb drives.

------
NoPiece
I would think, in addition to governments, organized crime would literally
kill to get their hands on the information that Snowden has. Not only to
resell, but to understand the threat to their own livelihood.

------
powertower
So basically what he has access to every single government on this planet
wants access to. Not to mention a number of criminal or opportunist
organizations.

~~~
grey-area
Given the incredibly bad security at the NSA, and the number of contractors
with access, I think you can take it as given that Russia and China already
have access to these documents.

------
ams6110
I'm shocked--shocked!--to find gambling going on here!

------
codex
Snowden indiscriminately leaked a huge trove of classified information to the
press. Governments desperately want to know what has been compromised and what
has not. What Snowden stole, they want to steal back, or at least catalog. Is
there honor among thieves?

~~~
rch
So, arrest Snowden then, if that becomes possible. Invading the home of
someone who is not guilty of a crime is an unacceptable escalation by the
governing state.

~~~
codex
Appelbaum is in possession of stolen information. He is being surveilled and
surreptitiously searched like any common suspect might be. The FBI conducts
secret sneak and peaks all the time, legally. Public arrests may or may not
happen, but that's not the game right now. The first order of business is
identifying who has what information and with whom they might be sharing it.
An arrest would cause any extant network or conspiracy to go further
underground.

~~~
patrickg
I doubt that the FBI (or any other US authority) is allowed to operate in any
state outside the USA. Similar with all other countries.

~~~
codex
It's easy enough to engage the local authorities, but if they won't cooperate,
a unilateral op. in the name of national security is not unheard of.

~~~
patrickg
"Easy enough?" I am also not sure if that is really so easy. We are not
talking about a terrorist here.

