
ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard - olivernn
https://zsa.io/moonlander
======
ahelwer
I've been getting deep into the home office ergonomics hole now that I'll be
working from home indefinitely. There's a real danger here - I generally pride
myself as someone who is conscientious of consumerist tendencies, but it's
become clear that my drive for better ergonomics is no longer about the actual
facilitation of work or avoidance of injury. I have spent more time
researching ergonomic setups than could ever be saved by marginal improvements
in productivity, and my poor posture is by far the greatest risk for injury.

It's become about completing myself. Filling the void. Materialism: the belief
that acquisition of something outside myself will finally bring me permanent
satisfaction. But if you'll excuse the metaphor, the void we try to fill is a
black hole of the cosmic variety: its pull grows as it is fed. Shoveling in
expensive ergonomic equipment is little different from shoes or bags or guns
or radios or funko pops.

Anyway, this _next_ $250 I spend on an endlessly-adjustible retractable
keyboard tray & fancy ergonomic keyboard will surely address all my
complaints...

~~~
billman
The best keyboard I can think of is one that tells me to get my butt out of
the chair and go for a walk every two hours.

~~~
Timothee
You can probably make that happen with the QMK firmware: make the whole thing
stop two hours after being plugged in. Or have a key sequence to restart the
timer. (so that you don't have to unplug and plug it all the time)

That'd be an interesting feature honestly.

~~~
autocorr
The keyboard in the submitted post comes with a buzzer built-in. I think they
had one in the Planck that beeped when it turned on or connected to bluetooth
or something. So you could program QMK to do this almost certainly! :)

------
tom_
I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better
keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a
different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this
type of device relies on muscle memory to work.

(Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys,
standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they want their
devices to be less useful, not more!)

Particularly annoying when there's such a wide range of non-split keyboards
with nice keyswitches. You've got all the bizarre layouts you can eat, but you
still get the option of a more standard one too.

~~~
nextos
I love mechanical keyboards. My favorite switch is ALPS.

But IMHO, the most ergonomic switches are low-travel ones. They increase my
typing speed, reduce latency and make long sessions effortless.

Luckily, low-travel versions of many good quality keyboard switches are being
produced and developed more often now to cater the gaming market.

For a simple, readily available option, I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more
than good enough. It has really low latency [1]. I wonder if other low-travel
switches are the same or if it has a particularly speedy firmware.

[1] [https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/](https://danluu.com/keyboard-
latency/)

~~~
Too
For a low-travel and ergonomic keyboard, check out the Microsoft Sculpt
Ergonomic. It's wireless and has a standard layout which doesn't require any
learning, including a real row of function-keys, full size arrow-block and pg-
up/down. And it just cost 1/4 of the Moonlander. No per-key dedicated
backlight, no programmable ARM Cortex or any other thrills, it's just a
simple, comfortable, plug in and start using keyboard. I wish they offered an
even cheaper version without the silly Mouse in the package.

It has a reputation for bad build quality but i've been lucky with mine. Also
be careful to not loose the wireless dongle as the keyboard becomes a brick
without it.

~~~
nextos
They do offer a version with OEM/business packaging and no mouse.

------
rayshan
I've been eyeing the Ergodox-EZ for a few months and this was an instant buy
for me. Lately I've been rotating between TKL keyboards and the Microsoft
Sculpt Ergonomic, but my right wrist is still getting worse.

I looked at over a dozen split keyboard options. Seems like no matter if you
build or buy, it'll cost around $300. I decided I didn't want to also buy a
soldering kit and wait months for parts to arrive.

Here's a comparison site between all the known split keyboard layouts (no
moonlander yet though):
[https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/](https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/)

~~~
walkingolof
Try the Kinesis Advantage, got one with red switches, I do not type faster,
but it’s very comfy for my old wrists and I do not make many mistakes. Bonus,
the configuration is stored as text files that shows up in a “usb drive” on
the desktop.

------
andrewla
One thing I have never been able to understand about split keyboard designs is
why they don't put the characters on the split ("Y/T G/H V/B/N") on _both_
sides of the keyboard. I mean, are key caps a high cost? There's a correct way
to type, but it doesn't need to be so strict. Sometimes (often) the natural
use of a keyboard (like holding down a control character for a sequence of
keys) makes it so that we type on the wrong side because one hand is badly out
of position.

~~~
samgranieri
This keyboard, and the Erdogox EZ I bought a month ago are reprogrammable!
There's a slick web UI that can generate firmware for you so you can reflash a
keyboard's firmware.

You can also download the source code of your keyboard;s layout, program it
and flash it yourself. It's called QMK

Here's mine: [https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-
ez/layouts/64YXl/la...](https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-
ez/layouts/64YXl/latest/)

Last but not least, on this keyboard and most mechanical keyboards you have
the ability to change keycaps to whatever you want.

I'm a touch typist, so i switched to blank keycaps
[https://pimpmykeyboard.com/dcs-blank-
keysets/](https://pimpmykeyboard.com/dcs-blank-keysets/)

~~~
andrewla
But the keys in the middle are differently sized; there are two of them for
the three rows of keys. You can reprogram, but you can't just add a regular
"Y" key on the left and a "T" key on the right that are where they are
supposed to be.

~~~
dharmab
The hardware is open; you can build or modify the keys as you please. There a
number of variants with different key layouts:
[https://deskthority.net/wiki/ErgoDox](https://deskthority.net/wiki/ErgoDox)

------
arka2147483647
The thing i like best about ZSA, is that they are selling products. Just buy,
configure with a nice web tool. No soldering, assembly or programming required
to make it work.

All other Ergodox, or Ergodox alternatives, seem like much more work to get
working the way you want.

Anyway, the thumb clusters were my primary annoyance with my Ergodox, so i
ordered a Moonlander. I hope it works out.

~~~
benji-york
For another take on thumb clusters, check out the Diverge:
[https://unikeyboard.io/product/diverge/](https://unikeyboard.io/product/diverge/)

~~~
arka2147483647
Honestly, the three-normal-buttons thumb cluster seems worse than the three-
long-buttons in Moonlander. But would be nice to try it if i get the chance.

~~~
Symbiote
You press the key on or close to the the near edge using your thumb either
way, so it really doesn't matter.

(This comment typed on an Ergodash:
[https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash](https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash) It
would be possible to press the key labelled with the noodle bowl using my
thumb, although I'm not in the habit of doing so. I might try and make it a
habit, now I think about it. The top half of the "Enter" on the right side is
pointless; my keyboard has 2 small keys instead of the large one.)

------
nandkeypull
For similar ergonomic keyboards (mostly DIY), there's of course a GitHub
awesome list: [https://github.com/pvinis/awesome-split-
keyboards](https://github.com/pvinis/awesome-split-keyboards).

My personal favorite is the Lily58:
[https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/d9g3qe...](https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/d9g3qe/the_build_is_done_lily58_pro_mt3_devtty_halo_true/).
It avoids having a preposterous number of thumb keys and has a number row. And
the OLEDs are a nice touch.

~~~
Symbiote
I recently forked the "awesome" list as it seemed a bit abandoned, but I
haven't added anything to it just yet.

[https://aposymbiont.github.io/awesome-split-
keyboards/](https://aposymbiont.github.io/awesome-split-keyboards/)

(If anyone actually enjoys writing JavaScript, or can do it in their sleep,
feel free to take over. I'm 95% a backend dev, so I was just aiming for
something easy to maintain, ideally generated from something like a CSV file.
The intention is to link to it from Reddit's /s/ErgoMechKeyboards.)

~~~
nandkeypull
Nice visualization! I like how you added filters for all the different
options. The repo I linked to is a fork of the original abandoned one; it
seems to be being updated regularly (last merge 8 days ago).

------
RedBeetDeadpool
This is pretty cool. I was thinking about ordering and building a dactyl
manuform [1] after my latest upgrade, the kyria [2] which improved the
inflammation in my index fingers, failed to truly solve my issues because they
put my thumbs in a very contorted position. I love how you can rotate the
thumb keys as its unnatural to have your thumbs press keys in the same
direction as the rest of your fingers.

Having started with very generic ergonomic keyboards, and now progressing to
hand built keyboards have taught me that if you are experiencing some sort of
tendon, nerve, or joint issues from standard keyboard use, you really need to
dive into the deep end and get the most ergonomic thing out there even if $300
for a keyboard, when you can buy one for under $20, sounds incredibly
expensive. If you don't, you'll likely end up paying that much to just keep
fixing or improving the situation. And if you don't try to fix the situation
you'll pay for it in damage to your hands which to me has no monetary value* .

I might still choose to build the manuform, but it's nice that there's an
option out there with adjustable thumb keys, I've never seen that before and I
hope it becomes a trend in the split ergonomic keyboard world.

[1] [https://tomoakley.me/article/2020/01/1-month-with-the-
dactyl...](https://tomoakley.me/article/2020/01/1-month-with-the-dactyl-
manuform)

[2] [https://blog.splitkb.com/blog/introducing-the-
kyria](https://blog.splitkb.com/blog/introducing-the-kyria)

* _okay, maybe there is an exact amount in terms of how much money you can no longer make through typing ability that is lost, but my point is there is an intrinsic value to having fully functional hands._

~~~
johnm
Can you add more details about the problems you had with the Kyria thumb
positioning? Too much usage of the inward thumb keys? Angles?

~~~
RedBeetDeadpool
Its the angle of the thumb keys, which is the restriction of printing all the
keys for one hand on one board. I like the keyboard linked here because the
thumb keys are at a different angle. I really like the kyria though because of
the aggressive staggering. It resolved a lot of issues I got because my middle
finger is so much longer than my index finger. But in order to take advantage
of the stagger, I have to keep my wrists at the same angle of the plate, and
if I keep my wrists at that same angle then my thumbs have to hit the keys
with their side and tuck to the side of my palm like a trex because there's
not as much space between the thumb and the keys. The ideal angle that the
thumb bends is roughly perpendicular to the angle the rest of your fingers
bend. The thumb cluster though is a fantastic improvement over pinky
modifiers, that's not my complaint.

~~~
johnm
I see. Yeah, sounds like a one of the Dactyl Manuform's is in your future. :-)
Given the parametric nature, it seems like you be able to tune it to your
specifics.

For me, on the existing flat thumb ergos, hitting the thumb buttons with the
side of the thumb actually feels normal to me in terms of thumb & wrist
motion. The primary issue is the angles and arc of the splaying of the thumb
to hit the keys without having to contort my thumbs any. This is my biggest
issue with the Kinesis Advantage and ErgoDox.

The second biggest factor is that the tall Cherry style switches and keycaps
requires a lot of travel distance for activation. One the more recent ergo
boards, I've switched to lower profile switches and that makes a non-trivial
improvement as well. My upcoming build is with the choc minis + low profile
keycaps but with heavier springs so they feel more like the last generation of
the 17" MBP keyboard (as opposed the crap that's Apple's done with their
recent keys).

------
indentit
I like the idea of it, it's different enough from the standard design that it
seems well thought out - but it's one of those keyboards/products I would love
to be able to try for a while before committing myself to a purchase, to
ensure I can get used to it and would enjoy typing on it. It'd be great to see
some kinda local computer hardware/keyboard store open up for this purpose,
but I guess it'd be too niche really to be profitable/popular...

~~~
Milank
That's one of the reasons I said in mu post that I'm happy that split
keyboards are getting more attention.

Most of the people still don't know about them. If more people knew about the
benefits they bring, problems they solve, they would be much more popular.
That would bring the price down, increase the choices available, bring them
closer to the users. So you could probably go to a local shop and test it.

But they would lose the exclusivity feeling they have now. Which one do you
choose?

~~~
indentit
I think it would be better for the health of the population if split keyboards
were less exclusive, along with different keyboard layouts like Colemak
instead of most people being stuck on Qwerty which was designed to be awkward
to slow down the typist to prevent typewriter jams.

Sure, it would be harder to tell who the early adopters are, in case it is any
measure of skill or determination, but that's a trade-off I would be happy
with - instead of being the odd ones out, we'd be pioneers setting the trend
;)

~~~
Milank
I think it's coming. More and more people are having problems caused by the
position used with standard keyboards. But it will take some time to educate
everyone, starting with doctors who need to keep up with 'modern health
issues' caused by using the computer whole day.

Let's be philosophical: A journey of a thousand miles begins with a first
step. We'll get there.

------
cuddlybacon
This is interesting.

I have an ergodox, well two of them, and I think this does improve on the
design. I read a user comment somewhere that said that the ergodox seems like
the design got solidified when there were still improvements to be made, and
for me that has been true.

Let's talk about some changes they made that I really like:

* The left side is the primary. If I ever want half a keyboard, I'll want just the left side. On the ergodox, the right side is the primary side.

* It's thinner. The bulkiness of the ergodox ez makes it look cheap, which it very much is not.

* The tilting of the thumb cluster might make that 3rd key accessible to me. On my ergodox, my thumbs can only operate two of the buttons.

* They tried a new layout on the thumb cluster.

Some other thoughts I have:

* I find it strange that the default layouts for both keyboards split the arrow keys. Some games use the arrows for moving the viewport, and I find split arrow keys unworkable for that.

* The rotating hinge for the thumb cluster is neat, but what about just moving them closer? The keyboardio Model 01 manages to get 5 workable thumb buttons with this. But it did sacrifice the rows beneath zxc and ,./ Maybe that is inevitable.

* The site is responsive, loaded fairly fast (550ms, which is good considering I'm on my work VPN. HN takes 250ms), and is smaller than I expected considering all the images (1.6MB).

* I find it hard to come up with uses for the fancier things the keyboard firmware can do (eg dual purpose modifier keys, space cadet shift, macros etc).

* EDIT: I have been curious if a design where the thumb buttons push inward is workable. That direction seems more suitable to the thumb. Again, I think the issue is being able to fit the buttons without affecting the keys for the fingers.

Still, I'd probably give this a try if I needed a new keyboard.

~~~
MivLives
There's defiantly layouts that have been made with the thumb buttons moved in.
The Iris[1] or Corne[2] for example. Though you're now in custom keyboard
territory which means you're either building it yourself, or finding a
person/company to assemble it for you.

[1] [https://alexjj.com/images/iris-
example.jpg](https://alexjj.com/images/iris-example.jpg)

[2] [https://alexjj.com/images/iris-
example.jpg](https://alexjj.com/images/iris-example.jpg)

~~~
cuddlybacon
Mhm. Mhm.

I ended up looking at the options in [https://github.com/pvinis/awesome-split-
keyboards](https://github.com/pvinis/awesome-split-keyboards) based on your
comment. I noticed all the ones that moved the thumb cluster in, also don't
have the bottom row that the ergodox does.

~~~
Symbiote
The ErgoDash[1] has 7 keys along the bottom, of which either 3 or 4 are thumb
keys (the 4th key can be soldered in two positions).

At least the way I set up my ErgoDash, either side can be primary. I think
this is now standard.

> I find it hard to come up with uses for the fancier things the keyboard
> firmware can do (eg dual purpose modifier keys, space cadet shift, macros
> etc).

\- I have[2] a simultaneous press of T and 5 set to be F5. Similarly for the
whole top row.

\- A short tap of my media key is "Media Next". A solid press is "Media
Play/Pause". A long press is "Ctrl + Media Stop", which my media player
recognizes as "Stop after current track". Something similar for the volume
key.

\- Enter is a thumb key, but when held down it's Ctrl.

\- I have a window switching key, which holds down Alt and presses Tab, but
keeps Alt held down for 0.5s in case of subsequent presses.

\- I have single keys for Ctrl+PgUp and Ctrl+PgDown, which switches tabs in
many applications.

[1] [https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash](https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash)

[2] [http://www.keyboard-layout-
editor.com/#/gists/501437fce9123e...](http://www.keyboard-layout-
editor.com/#/gists/501437fce9123ecdaa15e9d15ec325b4)

------
Milank
This doesn't feel like a big step forward, like something new and
revolutionary.

It's more like an iteration of previous models, with some small tweaks and
perks.

But I'm happy that split keyboard market is getting more and more attention.

~~~
wy35
Yes, I'm disappointed to see that this isn't a contoured keyboard -- still
waiting for a contoured keyboard (e.g. Advantage2) with the customization of
the ErgoDox without having to build it myself (e.g. Dactyl Manuform).

~~~
johnm
Do you only use the Advantage at home/work? I.e., what do you do when you're
traveling (or just using your laptop away from you desk)?

~~~
wy35
I don't bother traveling with the Advantage2 at all... it's a bit too big to
do that comfortably.

I find it pretty easy to switch between laptop keyboard and Advantage2, so no
problems there. So the Advantage2 remains on my desk while I just use my
laptop's keyboard for meetings/on-the-go. I think the layouts are so
different, my brain processes them separately.

~~~
johnm
Indeed. I started with the original Advantage a long time ago. After getting
used to it, switching back and forth with the laptop keyboards doesn't
scramble my brain.

But making the jump to the modern, smaller splits + multiple layers, etc. is
another huge jump in ergonomics... and they are portable enough to travel
with.

------
rkagerer
Neat! If you're interested in this kind of thing, I recommend also checking
out the Kinesis Advantage.

~~~
SloopJon
I used a Kinesis Advantage for a few years before switching to the Kinesis
Freestyle Edge RGB.

My main complaint about the Advantage is that I kept hitting the arrow buttons
in the bottom row unintentionally. Partly poor typing form, I'm sure, and of
course I could have remapped them.

The other thing is that the Advantage is tall, so it's not great up on a desk,
and it's not that comfortable on your lap. I think it's best in a tray,
although some trays may not be tall enough for it.

As for the Freestyle, I like the split design, the customizable layout, and
the customizable lighting (I have a different color for QWERTY and Dvorak).
Add a couple of USB ports, and it would be nearly perfect. The "6" key is on
the wrong half, and I might experiment with a layout that isn't staggered
typewriter style.

I do tend to fidget with the position of the Freestyle throughout the day.
This is another keyboard that might work better in a tray.

I don't know if I'd call this Moonlander "next generation," but it's an
intriguing combination of what I like in the Advantage and Freestyle.

~~~
azinman2
I have an advantage as well, and I've never accidentally hit the arrow keys or
any other keys to be honest. How are you doing so? They're in a pretty out of
the way location if you let your hands rest on the home row.

------
edanm
I recently bought and Ergodox-EZ, after previously getting my first mechanical
keyboard (the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard, which I love).

I'm not a huge fan of it. So far, it seems like it's been a lot of work
relearning habits, for little gain.

But oddly enough, my biggest gripe with the Ergodox isn't something I've heard
people complain about - the lack of an extra column of keys on the right part.
Basically, on a normal keyboard, to the right of the "l" key, you've got
another 3 keys - a ;, a ', and the enter key. They're all pretty important.

But on the Ergodox, you only have 2 more keys. Meaning you either have to move
the return key to somewhere else, or move the "'" key somewhere else. Both of
them break tons of muscle memory, and for no real benefit IMO.

In addition, the lack of that extra column means that symbols like [], like
-=, etc can't be in their regular locations. Obviously, as a programmer, these
are all keys I use a _lot_.

I don't know that much about mechanical keyboards, but I really don't get why
this choice was made. It seems like a completely self-own here, making it _so_
much harder to get used to this keyboard.

~~~
victoriasun
Those far keys are usually triggered by your weakest fingers -- return, for
example, is triggered via your pinky and can often require you to stretch your
pinky (and ulnar nerve) in unergonomic ways, leading to Cubital Tunnel
Syndrome.

I find that a good introductory layout to this kind of keyboard is the Kinesis
Advantage 2 [1]. As you can see a bunch of common keypresses usually delegated
to the pinkies have been set on the thumb clusters. On my Ergodox, I also have
symbols layers that allow you to reach common symbols without moving my
fingers significantly from the home row. It definitely takes an adjustment
period but my RSI definitely thinks its worth it!

[1]
[http://xahlee.info/kbd/kinesis_keyboard_howto.html](http://xahlee.info/kbd/kinesis_keyboard_howto.html)

~~~
matttb
This is exactly why I love my Ergodox. My biggest hand issue was pinky pain,
and with the ergodox I've moved basically all of the 'stretch' pinky keys to
thumb/index finger. In particular moving backspace/enter/ctrl to the thumb
cluster makes me feel like I can never use a keyboard without one again. It's
completely eliminated pinky pain on both of my hands.

------
ohazi
The columnar layout thesis ("your fingers move vertically, not horizontally!")
is wrong. Your fingers can move both vertically _and_ horizontally, but moving
them vertically requires tensioning and releasing the tendons that travel
through the carpal tunnel, while moving them from side to side does not. It's
the exact opposite of what you want to be doing if you have wrist RSI.

I got partway through an Ergodox build before realizing this and will probably
never use this thing.

~~~
erikerikson
> It's the exact opposite of what you want to be doing if you have wrist RSI.

Do you have a reference for this? I don't have it but use ergonomic tools to
avoid such in the long term.

------
kelp
I badly want this, but with Topre keys. I have a couple of Topre FC660Cs and
absolutely love the feel, durability and quality of the keyboard. A split
would be really nice though.

~~~
anctualprzn
I'm with you. I have the FC660C. Loved the feel and sound, but the tiny form
caused my RSI, which prompted me to buy an ErgoDox EZ. Had to go back to
Cherry switches, but I would love some CYO Topre switches to throw in there. I
wish there was a bigger market for CYO switches, but I haven't found anywhere
to get them.

~~~
bllguo
CYO meaning choose your own?

I wouldn't hold my breath on the Topre front, the company is notoriously
conservative in their offerings. They're also not mechanical switches; there's
really no way to offer hotswap Topre switches. But there is a whole world out
there other than Topre and Cherry. And you can swap them out easily since you
have an ergodox ez. You can buy mechanical switches from several hobby sites
like
[https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches](https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches),
it's pretty much plug and play

------
thefounder
Already had somwthing like this. The wires made it useless for me.

~~~
mohaine
I never understood the appeal of wireless keyboards. Sure I understand for
mobile but for a primary workspace the wire has never bothered me on the
keyboard. I mean it just sits there and replacing batteries is a pain. Mouse
is a different story since it moves. Is it just mobile or is there some other
reason you hate wires on a keyboard?

~~~
GordonS
2 reasons why wired keyboards are annoying:

    
    
      1. Aesthetics; the wire looks ugly on an otherwise clean desk
      2. The wire takes up space that could be used for a notebook, coffee cup, mobile phone or whatever
    

I've had wireless keyboards at home and wired at work for years - wireless is
much better IMO. On the batteries, they seem to last a very long time - I
guess I change them once a year, or possibly 18 months, and that's with me
using it all day, and then someone else often using it for a bit in the
evening too.

------
egypturnash
_Hyper is Ctrl+Shift+Alt+Win /Cmd, while Meh is Ctrl+Shift+Alt. No sane
application on your machine uses these, which means you get free system-wide
shortcuts._

Ugh I wish Illustrator would let me use these, it only lets me assign
shortcuts to cmd, cmd-shift, cmd-alt, and cmd-alt-shift. I would be so happy
if I could add ctrl I to the mix, I have about thirty keypresses left
unassigned and they are all kind of terrible choices.

I guess this means my setup is insane. I’m fine with that.

~~~
ghufran_syed
What OS do you use? Could you use something like Karabiner on OSX, I'm not an
expert but I _think_ it allows you to map arbitrary key combinations to other
key combinations that the program will accept

~~~
egypturnash
I'm on OSX and am already using Karabiner to remap capslock to cmd-alt-shift
and fn to cmd-alt! The problem is that Illustrator only has so many key
combinations I can set up, and I have all but thirty of them allocated.

I suppose I could do something terrible like have Quicksilver grab shortcuts
that involved control and make it press menu items for me, I already have a
couple of keypresses that invoke scripts to make AI do things that way, but
that has complications like "now my key shortcuts are managed in two places"
and "some of these shortcuts don't show up in the menus, which makes things
complicated when I am doing a less-frequently-used shortcut".

(Now that I think about it I could maybe solve the second issue with OSX's
keyboard shortcuts settings... oh, nope, "you cannot add keyboard shortcuts
for the application Adobe Illustrator 2020". Also I'd have to remake them
every time there was an update that changed the name.)

------
nine_k
My take:

\- It's basically Ergodox EZ for the main part, from the same company.

\- The thumb block is more comfortable now, but 2 keys smaller.

\- The position of wrist pad is adjustable.

\- Backlight, legs, and wrist pads are included in the base set.

\- The price of the whole thing is about the same as of Ergodox EZ in a
minimal set, without backlight and wrist pads.

Still not barrel-shaped as e.g. Kinesis Advantage; you can put the parts quite
far aside, though.

Looks like a buy if you were planning to buy a mechanical ergonomic keyboard.

------
1MachineElf
Unfortunatley, I believe it's a mistake to move away from the 1.5u outer
column used by the ErgoDox, since the pinky is a less accurate finger and
benefits from the extra key width.

There isn't anything this does that the ErgoDox-EZ doesn't do, besides the
adjustable thumb cluster and apparent build quality.

I wouldn't call this a next-generation ergonomic keyboard unless it also had
integrated pointing device options like the UHK has.

~~~
CarVac
My take after building my own fully-custom board is that the best ergonomics
is had by ditching the outer column entirely to completely remove pinky
reaching.

The thumb clusters need to be bigger and closer to the alphas so they're more
powerful and more easily reached.

My board: [https://flic.kr/p/LJdbeC](https://flic.kr/p/LJdbeC)

~~~
1MachineElf
You are a legend, sir! I recall this being posted to reddit years back. I
upvoted it then, and do so again now.

I started out with an Atreus42 in 2016 and really loved it, so I totally get
that outer columns are superfluous in most circumstances. The same could be
said about most extra features on this ZSA Moonlander board overall, although
I think there's some utility in being able to leverage the non-essential keys
when it's convenient, especially when it costs that much. Say for example one
wants to use it for gaming - most games expect there to be an outer column.

(Shameless plug) Here's my keymap. It doesn't require outer columns, and needs
just 34 keys:
[https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/sb4dv/planc...](https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/sb4dv/planck/keyboards/planck/keymaps/sb4dv)

------
Tepix
Looks interesting. I think the Keyboardio Model 01 (or its successor) appears
to be higher quality (an perhaps ergonomics) for slightly less money.

------
127
As split keyboards go, there's a lot of different ones developed by the semi-
pro community. Like for example Quefrency
([https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9jl46t...](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9jl46t/yaqb_yet_another_quefrency_build/))

------
_ink_
Is there a similar keyboard in the $100 range? I do not need changeable
keyswitches or an ARM processor in my keyboard. Currently I have the Microsoft
natural ergonomic keyboard 4000 and I am quite happy with that. I just do not
need a num block and think a split keyboard is easier for travelling. Are
there any good split keyboards with hand rests in the $100 range?

~~~
StavrosK
You do need an ARM processor, though. It's fantastic to be able to remap the
keys to anything you like. I didn't think I'd need it until I tried it, but
now I can't live without it.

I wonder if you could put an Arduino into the MS Sculpt and get the best of
both worlds. Or maybe you could make an Arduino with a USB port and just have
it remap keys on the fly.

~~~
least
There is such a device. Hasu's USB-USB converter works with qmk/tmk and will
work with (almost) any keyboard.

[https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69169.0](https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69169.0)

[https://www.1upkeyboards.com/shop/controllers/usb-to-usb-
con...](https://www.1upkeyboards.com/shop/controllers/usb-to-usb-converter/)

~~~
StavrosK
That looks great, thanks!

------
Theodores
I appreciate that there is a market for ergonomic fancy keyboards, but can't
we just get the standard keyboard right?

I wish that there was a keyboard company out there that focused on standard
keyboards with attention paid to supporting all locales. Choice for the US
consumer might be great but elsewhere in the English speaking world you start
getting compromises. Essentially you can get a US keyboard with a few of the
keycaps moved around. What you actually want is more than that, things like a
double height enter key.

I dread to think what keyboard layout crimes go on outside the English
speaking world.

Now, tenkeyless. Having the number pad is great if you do a lot of book-
keeping but for most people it is not needed. If you are left handed then it
makes as much sense as a fish with a bicycle.

But getting to know the jargon - 'tenkeyless' and 'tkl' is a journey in
itself. If you are using your keyoboard to type words then you do want the
keys for navigation - Page Up, Page Down, Home, End, Delete - plus the arrow
keys. But mini keyboards just mess with the layout to maybe give you half the
standard keys in non-standard places.

So, effectively 'tkl' plus a non-US locale means you are going to have a
limited choice.

Now let's put in a few other common requirements - backlighting, wireless and
wired operation, coffee proofing and silent operation. You can't get all these
things with a non US locale and a 'tkl' keyboard. Sure there are many switch
variants and fancy LED lighting schemes with ghastly keycap designs, but if
you just want standard layout then it isn't going to happen.

It is sad to see Logitech, Microsoft and others offer us compromised designs
that cost either a pittance of serious money. Why can't there just be a
manufacturer that goes for the niche of standard ISO rather than ergonomic, or
with too few keys, or with some emphasis on buckling spring style feel?

~~~
wy35
> Why can't there just be a manufacturer that goes for the niche of standard
> ISO rather than ergonomic, or with too few keys, or with some emphasis on
> buckling spring style feel?

Those features are what the mass consumer market wants. Also, I'm sure
Logitech and Microsoft have always offered a standard ISO keyboard.

> Ergonomic

People value the long-term health of their wrists.

> Too few keys

Usually to reduce desk space. In the case of the Planck, it's also to reduce
finger travel.

> Emphasis on key feel

If I'm typing at my job all day, I want the thousands of keypresses I do to
feel good.

> niche of standard ISO

Honestly, I think standard ISO/ANSI is awful -- the vast amount of design
decisions are a relic of the typewriter age.

The rows are staggered because typewriter keyboards had physical vertical bars
under the keys that would otherwise overlap. An ortholinear solution makes
much more sense in the modern age.

The second most-used key, backspace, is positioned in the far right corner of
the keyboard. One must move their entire right hand (or have a long pinky) to
hit it. The spacebar, on the other hand, is wasted real estate because it
completely occupies two of the strongest digits -- the thumbs. Thus, a better
solution would be to split the spacebar with one half being backspace.

This isn't even going into the nightmare that is QWERTY. Regardless of
keyboard, almost everyone is using an inefficient layout designed to place
common keys away from each other.

Conclusion: just because it's standard doesn't mean it's the best choice. IMO,
when it comes to keyboard layouts, the standard is the worst choice.

~~~
Theodores
The ISO layouts for the UK have a two-row enter key.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards)

US keyboards don't. There is a backslash key above the single row enter key.
Which is a key I have no real great use for. Maybe it rocked in the MS-DOS
days but backslash doesn't really need that priority place.

So look at the Logitech keyboards for the UK. They offer one model with the
true layout, i.e. a double height enter key. The rest have some US keys with
UK labels on.

Now look at Microsoft. Again there is some massive backslash key instead of an
ISO UK keyboard in all its glory.

What happens is that they take the US board and change a few of the key caps.
They do not go to the effort of doing it properly.

There are other layouts, for example, German, that should have the big enter
key.

Standards might not be optimal solutions. But at least you know where you are.
You know what to expect. But with keyboards nobody sticks to the standards. If
you look at the Logitech ones for instance they all have different fudges,
such as arrow keys mangled together differently, just enough to trip you up if
swapping between Logitech keyboards. Then things like rounding off the corner
keys including escape. They do these awful design decisions on far too many of
their keyboards.

The tenkeyless requirement is reasonable, laptops don't tend to have the num-
pad. But is there a tkl keyboard out there with a standard ISO layout? Not if
you combine that feature with wireless or a desire for backlighting. Nevermind
switch choice.

Some people struggle with an Apple keypad due to the different modifier keys.
God help anyone having to press a few keys on any of the ZSA boards. Might as
well learn Dvorak keyboards. Or go all the way with a chord keyboard. QWERTY
works and we all know it is not the best. But standards are not kept to when
you move out of the US layout.

------
ceocoder
Ah this is really cool, quite similar to a keyboard I’m designing -
[https://imgur.com/a/z31Zfoa](https://imgur.com/a/z31Zfoa) \- haven’t designed
a case yet.

They have taken an interesting approach with thumb cluster, single key on
farend and 3 on near end of thumb. I did the opposite of that, on account of
thumb being not that flexible in bent position.

Over the years my daily driver has been kinesis advantage2. I tried ergodox
but really disliked thumbcluster placement and additional middle keys. I made
a keeb.io Nyqist recently and got a few pcbs printed for Redox, need to build
that out.

It is really hard to go back to non-split keyboards after using split for a
while, and kinesis advantage is still the gold standard imo, concave keywell
alone is the reason to spend north of $350 on it.

------
lowbloodsugar
I am at the point where I like to move my fingers minimally and with very low
force required. I have an Apple wireless keyboard and I love the switches.
Even my 2018 15" MBP is great.

I also desperately need a split keyboard. But these are dealbreakers:

* Requires me to learn a different finger pattern than the Apple keyboard (even ones with the Fn where "the control should be" are a problem for my muscle memory). I use the MBP too.

* Requires a lot of vertical movement, i.e. big deeply depressed keys

* Tall keys that require my wrists to hold my fingers in the air, or for my wrists to lay on supports which put all the weight on my wrists instead of my arms.

I have a Kenesis Freestyle for Mac, and I don't use it for these reasons, even
though it relaxes my wrists rotation around the vertical axis.

~~~
johnm
I don't know of one that exactly fits your constraints. But there are so many
and more being created all the time. Trying asking on
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/)

In terms of the tall versus short keys... Look for one that you can get/build
with either Kailh low profile "chocs" or their even lower profile "choc mini"
switches. The "linear" versions will be most like the feel of the Apple
keyboards.

------
tokamak-teapot
My wrists ache badly if I type too much, despite all the adjustments I’ve made
over the years.

I’m currently using an Apple wired keyboard angled so the front edge is
higher, with my hands floating above it or sitting on silicon rests.

I also use Filco tenkeyless mechanical keyboards - one with blue and one with
brown switches. I prefer the feel of these and make fewer mistakes, but I’m
convinced they make my wrists worse.

I think the next options for me to try are split, tenting and staggered
columns.

Is there a chance of trying these out without spending this kind of money? I
don’t think I’m up to the task of soldering switches, unfortunately.

~~~
nico_h
Depending on the number of rows and columns you want there is quite a cottage
industry of ergo keyboards.

I think the main ergo flat keyboard (staggered columns) with 3 rows 6 columns
are the Gergo / Kyria / Corne depending on the number and placement of thumb
keys (they can be found assembled to order).

For 3d / sculpted keyboards, this person is selling assembled to order Dactyl
manuforms: [https://dactyl.bigcartel.com/](https://dactyl.bigcartel.com/)

A good reference for flat boards is
[https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/](https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/)

via
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/f5h3d6/s...](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/f5h3d6/split_keyboard_layout_comparison_site/)

Then for the sculpted keyboards, mostly the Dactyl/ Dactyl Manuform families
there are a bunch of vendors. The cheapest one is in the first link. Otherwise
one guy is currently selling some of his split on reddit's mechmarket.

~~~
tokamak-teapot
Brilliant thanks! That top link looks like it might be exactly what I was
hoping to be able to buy

------
sawaruna
If anyone is interested in building their own split ergo:

[https://blog.splitkb.com/blog/introducing-the-
kyria](https://blog.splitkb.com/blog/introducing-the-kyria)

~~~
wishinghand
I think the Kyria would be perfect for me if it had individual RGB backlit
keys. I love the idea of the rotary encoders.

------
mopsi
Very interesting design. The page could really use a video of someone using
it.

------
k_sze
Anybody else thought this is about a spacecraft when they saw the first two
words of the title? For a moment I thought ZSA referred to some little-known
space agency. Maybe Zambia or Zimbabwe Space Agency.

------
splitpremium
Why do split keyboards charge a premium? Microsoft makes contoured keybords
for 100usd. In India great quality mech keyboards costs $40, you bang it all
day on games and it lasts.

I can pay for innovation but this style is old

~~~
ahelwer
There are only a couple competitors that are split, ortholinear, and
mechanical (ergodox and some small custom others). They all charge over $300
afaik. You can get decent split/standard/membrane keyboards for $80-120 from
goldtouch or kinesis.

------
yepguy
Stop making split keyboards! You don't need 2 separate pieces; all you really
need are slightly angled keys away from the center. See the Truly Ergonomic
keyboard[1] for example.

That layout also has the advantage of being a design you could use for a
laptop, if only manufacturers put actual effort into their laptop keyboards.

[1]: [https://trulyergonomic.com/ergonomic-
keyboards/](https://trulyergonomic.com/ergonomic-keyboards/)

~~~
least
There's room in the world for both designs; it's not really a zero sum game
(unless you consider that people designing truly split keyboards would
otherwise spend their time designing angled keyboards). Split keyboards can
help accommodate people with different body types from yourself. I have a
Kinesis Advantage 2 and it is ever so slightly too narrow for what i'd prefer
for comfort with regards to my shoulders. When a keyboard is truly split you
can adjust each side to be placed where it is best for you.

------
sawaruna
Split keyboards are really popular amongst the Japanese mechanical keyboard
scene for some reason. Tons of people making and selling DIY split /
ortholinear split kits.

~~~
_ink_
Sounds interesting, do you have some links?

~~~
sawaruna
There isn't a great single resource I can point to, but try the twitter
account Yusha Kobo[0], which is a keyboard shop in Tokyo. Not just their
posts, but if you look at the feeds or likes of people they retweet, you
should be able to find a bunch of examples.

[0] [https://twitter.com/yushakobo](https://twitter.com/yushakobo)

------
skocznymroczny
Is there any science when it comes to ergonomy and tall keys? I would expect
tall keys to be more damaging to wrists over time due to awkward position and
longer travel time.

~~~
mofeien
I learned that the proper way to type is with your hands floating above the
keyboard, and resting your hands on a wrist rest when not typing. I don't
always do it, but when I do, the height of the keyboard relative to the table
becomes irrelevant, instead it's more about height of keys relative to my
shoulders and maintaining right angled elbows.

Also, to me the Moonlander keyboard and its keycaps do not seem particularly
tall.

~~~
m463
I use a wrist rest as well.

It's hard to get a good wrist rest - they seem to last for a month or a year
on amazon, and when I want to re-order, they are unavailable.

I have a memory foam one about 3-4" deep and the width of the keyboard. It is
soft enough, lifts and supports my wrists and keeps them warm.

I think the wrist support on this moonlander keyboard is a good idea, but
making it out of cold, hard plastic does not make it look comfortable.

~~~
me_me_me
I find gel wrist rest better. It has less give while still feeling soft to my
wrists.

~~~
m463
I used to use a gel wrist rest but the one I bought disappeared. I tried a
plain foam one (glorious gaming), but it was too hard.

------
jtmarmon
I've had the EZ for a while now and my only gripe has been how much of a pain
it is to travel with. The folding and carrying case made this an instant buy
for me.

------
P4wl0w
When I see this I am really looking forward to just talking to my computer
like to a real person :P

Keyboards are nice and in many cases a far superior input interface compared
to a mouse/touchpad but in my opinion it is just a stepping stone towards "the
real deal".

After voice interface there will be thought interfaces and then we can be
productive if the hardware, apps and os-es are good enough.

------
xellisx
I've been working on redesigning one of my own.
[https://gitlab.com/EllisGL/glt-
esokb1/-/tree/development](https://gitlab.com/EllisGL/glt-
esokb1/-/tree/development)

I do plan on making a normal staggered version of this, along with the other
40% in both normal and staggered columnar.

------
gregwebs
I highly recommend the kinesis freestyle edge keyboard which costs around $200
but has roughly all the same features besides the thumb module.

I also highly recommend a split keyboard in general: my shoulder issues are
noticeably better when using them.

A split keyboard may not help with wrist pain. Personally I was able to get
rid of any wrist pain by strengthening through climbing.

~~~
wy35
I'm not sure if I agree with the Freestyle being an equivalent alternative.
The Freestyle uses a traditional row-staggered layout while this keyboard uses
a column-staggered layout. A column-staggered layout IMO is much more
comfortable since your fingers are given their own dedicated column without
having to awkwardly twist your wrist.

~~~
gregwebs
I agree this might be significantly better for some. The tenting is probably
also better than the Freestyle Edge (which has only a couple settings).

If someone wants a first split keyboard though I think the Freestyle Edge is a
much better starting point given the price difference and the fact that the
non-letter/number keys don't have normal placements on the Moonlander.

Personally I tried the ErgoDox EZ and had to return it because it damaged my
productivity since it doesn't support just using a normal keyboard layout.
With a closer look this keyboard seems fundamentally the same actually so I
wouldn't recommend considering to try it unless you use a keyboard all day
long and even then be prepared to return it if it doesn't work out. The
Freestyle Edge on the other hand is a sure bet.

------
jerezz
Has anyone come across an ergo keyboard like this that has a mouse roller on
the thumb pad? I think my arms would appreciate a way to interact with the
mouse without moving my hands away from the keys.

I'm using a Kinesis Advantage2 right now, but I still need to move my hand to
get to the touchpad.

~~~
wishinghand
The Kyria keyboard has sockets for rotary encoders on it, but that's more like
a scroll wheel than a trackball. I've seen some folks hack them so that they
can use Playstation style joysticks or thumb trackballs instead.

------
wl
Next-generation? What separates this from Ergodox or Keyboardio? And all of
the above seem to be a step backwards from the Maltron and Kinesis Advantage
which have been around for decades. Dactyl and the like are the only ergo
keyboards I might label "next-generation."

------
drewm1980
At that price it's in competition with fully contoured (i.e. not flat)
mechanical keyboards.

~~~
Red_Leaves_Flyy
Yeah. It Looks cool, some nice features. But splits with most of these
features can be had for $150 or less, so I don't really see the appeal of
spending 200 more without a commensurate doubling of functionality,
ergonomics, etc.

~~~
ledauphin
can you provide some examples?

------
LibertyBeta
If it's built as well as my Ergo from them. I look forward too it. They make
some very refined and well thought out implementations of otherwise obvious
keyboards. And they're open source firmware support is amazing.

------
jakecopp
It still doesn't compare to a Kinesis Advantage 2 [1].

It’s concave!

[1]: [https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/](https://kinesis-
ergo.com/shop/advantage2/)

~~~
torartc
Woof that thing is huge.

------
Chris2048
If it was 150Eur I'd go for it, 300+ is beyond my keyboard budget.

------
spalynx
Is there something like this that is wireless between the two halves? Split
ergo keyboards look really neat, but like to keep my desk as clean looking as
possible.

------
charlieo88
No video of someone using it, at speed? Seems a bit sketchy.

~~~
wishinghand
I mean, it's a keyboard. Are you expecting the flux capacitor to get backed up
and thrash the alluvial dampers or something?

------
hbogert
a serious problem with these exotic keyboards is, you need two. They're too
big to take with you to work.

I would not have coped well if not for Covid-19. When I am at the office im
just there for meetings, because getting things done now on a normal keyboard
is frustrating.

But really, my shoulder pain is so much less, it's ultimately relaxed being
able to work both arms on shoulder width. Ban the mouse as well, and no more
arm-swinging.

------
nwah1
Why does it need to contain an actual ARM processor?

~~~
steveklabnik
Need to? It doesn't. Why might users care? Well, the kinds of people who are
into custom keyboards often use custom firmware too... while this keyboard
advertises QMK support, if I don't like QMK and want to use something else,
which chips are inside matters.

Making this even more concrete, I am in the market for some new keyboards, and
at least one of them is one I'd like to write my own firmware for. Rust is far
more supported on ARM chips than on some of the other popular chips that are
used to build keyboards, and so knowing this has one makes me more likely to
buy it than others. I don't want this specific keyboard, so it isn't a win for
me, but there are surely dozens of folks like me, dozens!

~~~
fluffything
I think OP meant "Why does this keyboard need so much computing power". Most
keyboards you can program use an AVR chip, which is more than enough, and you
can also program that from Rust.

The jump from that to this ARMv5 CPU is similar to that from this ARMv5 to an
Intel Xeon. And sure enough, if someone were to build a keyboard with an Intel
Xeon, you could also program that from Rust. But the question still remains:
why would anybody do that ?

~~~
steveklabnik
So, this is 100% speculation, but....

Specifically, this has a STM32F303xC. Looks like (depending on quantity, of
course), you're looking at $3 to $5. Their other well-known keyboard, the
Ergodox EZ, uses an ATMEGA32U4-AU. It's also $3 or $4 on Mouser. I don't know
what the actual BOM looks like in total, but it seems like this isn't
significantly different in price? Especially at the likely volumes here?

I'm still new to this game, so maybe I'm missing something.

~~~
fluffything
Thanks, this is an interesting discussion. I thought the arms would be much
more expensive:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/6wt6mi/evaluating_mcu...](https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/6wt6mi/evaluating_mcus_for_a_custom_build/)

~~~
steveklabnik
Nice, thanks for that link!

------
VectorLock
This looks like a modest step back from the Kinesis Advantage with dishes
keys, so not so much 'next-generation'.

------
bllguo
there are quite a few ortho split ergo offerings out there now. but still just
one with curved key wells (as far as im ware) in the dactyl manuform, and that
generally requires self-assembly. wonder why that is - manufacturing
difficulty? lack of interest?

------
simonebrunozzi
$365 for a keyboard? Not sure I really need something like this for that
price.

~~~
jtdressel
You probably don't, they are certainly not for everyone.

I have two of the earlier keyboards (ergodox ez). I gladly paid the price
because it makes me more comfortable. I find it similar to a nice monitor or
chair.

I don't know if my performance is better, but it's a nice piece of gear that's
a joy to use.

------
replwoacause
Looks nice, but good luck getting me to part with my Kinesis Advantage 2!

------
evan_
this looks really cool but I'm not sure I can get used to the arrow key
layout. I suppose I could do some kind of mapping to turn IJKL into an
inverted T arrow key bank.

------
bambataa
Awkward timing for me. I recently bought an Ergodox EZ and the main problem I
have with it is that many of the thumbpad keys are too far away to comfortably
use. I never thought of myself as having Trump-like tiny hands before but this
keyboard looks perfect.

------
cfontes
I swear I don't mean to offend anyone, but it's insane that people pay this
much for a keyboard, mouse, headphone, an so on. You can literally feed a
family for a whole year in some countries with this money.

Good ergonomics are awesome, macros are cool, but this is like a Channel Bag
for nerds, if you like it awesome but don't deceive yourself into needing it.

I love tech as everyone in here, I like my gizmos as well (Oculus quest being
the most beloved one) so I understand, I just hate the consumerism that this
type of item needs to survive, phones being the prime example of this, but a
good keyboard ($100 range maybe) is probably marginally worst at it's task
than this thing is.

Again, don't take it as a personal offence.

~~~
victoriasun
I used to think the same way as you. Then I got RSI and the only thing I can
type on now without excruciating pain is my $250+ ergonomic keyboard. The
other day I typed a short password on my Corsair gaming keyboard (standard
layout, full size) and I literally sprained my left wrist immediately.

Honestly, after how much money I’ve spent trying to deal with my RSI (doctors,
exams, physical therapy, home workout items and programs) the 250 is nothing
for something that isn’t exacerbating my injury and in fact reducing
inflammation enough that things are finally healing.

~~~
cfontes
Good to know! Fair point!

~~~
victoriasun
FWIW, I think the commentary around pricing is totally valid. Ergo keyboards
are absurdly expensive; not everyone can drop the necessary 2 to 400 USD to
acquire one of these. I don't know the economics but I'm sure part of it is
driven by demand; there's a lot less people concerned with ergonomics than
there should be, so no one's really incentivized to figure out how to mass
produce these.

I would love it when an entry level ergo keyboard could be had for under 50.

