
London to deploy live facial recognition to find wanted faces in a crowd - pseudolus
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/01/london-to-deploy-live-facial-recognition-to-find-wanted-faces-in-crowd/
======
101008
They deployed something like this in Buenos Aires a few months ago (or maybe a
year?). It worked mostly in Subway stations, where there is a lot of people
every day passing by.

Although it catched a few fugitives - it triggered a lot of horror stories. A
lot of false positives - which in an ideal world wouldn't be that bad. A
police man would stop you, asking you a few questions and once he confirms you
are not the guy they are looking for, they would leave you free. But it wasn't
like this - even when the police man recognized you weren't the one looking
for, they have to take you with them to the comisary, and spend a few hours
here until a judge can set you free. Worst of all, there are a few stories of
people being false recognized on a Sunday afternoon, and had to spend in the
comisary until Monday when the Judge could go. Very very sad.

~~~
ghostDancer
I's like to read more about that, do you have any good link about it, English
or Spanish it doesn't matter.

~~~
101008
[https://tn.com.ar/policiales/de-un-dni-mal-cargado-una-
cara-...](https://tn.com.ar/policiales/de-un-dni-mal-cargado-una-cara-
parecida-las-victimas-del-sistema-de-reconocimiento-facial-en-buenos_980528)

and

[https://www.nueva-ciudad.com.ar/notas/201905/40692-los-
error...](https://www.nueva-ciudad.com.ar/notas/201905/40692-los-errores-del-
sistema-de-reconocimiento-facial-detuvieron-a-una-mujer-por-su-parecido-con-
una-profuga.html)

~~~
ghostDancer
Gracias.

------
Lio
This is deeply disturbing.

The current government recently placed Greenpeace, Extinction Rebellion and
cycling advocacy group Critical Mass on a terrorist watch list (even though it
admits they aren't terrorist groups). [1]

Previously we've had a situation where a cartel of 14 large construction firms
operated a blacklist of workers with political opinions they disagreed with.
Some were on the list merely for being members of trade unions.

This blacklist was compiled illegally with the help of UK police's Special
Demonstration Squad. [2]

There seems to be a feeling that this sort of technology won't be misused but
you can already see the signs that is exactly what will happen.

[1] [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/critical-
mas...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/critical-mass-cycling-
group-terror-watch-list-home-office-a9301516.html)

[2] [https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/27/on-the-
black...](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/27/on-the-blacklist-
building-firms-secret-information-on-workers)

~~~
djmobley
> The current government recently placed Greenpeace, Extinction Rebellion and
> cycling advocacy group Critical Mass on a terrorist watch list (even though
> it admits they aren't terrorist groups).

No they didn’t. They placed their symbols alongside many others in a document
which aids police forces in identifying both left and right wing groups of
various persuasions [1].

Would you rather the police were ignorant of these groups and their associated
symbols, such that they mistook peaceful protestors for terrorists?

[1] [https://rebellion.earth/wp/wp-
content/uploads/2020/01/Counte...](https://rebellion.earth/wp/wp-
content/uploads/2020/01/Counter-terrorism-poster.pdf)

~~~
Lio
That document makes no mention about which groups are peaceful protestors and
which are terrorists. So no one working solely from that list could make that
judgement.

If it really was just a list of symbols for groups that might hold a peaceful
but potentially disruptive protest then I would expect to see the Countryside
Alliance or London Taxis Drivers Association on there... but they are not
present.

------
mosselman
Sounds pretty dystopian to me.

When talking with people they sometimes say 'I did nothing wrong, this is just
for the bad guys'. But what people fail to see is that 'bad guys' is a pretty
fluid concept and it depends on the nature of the current government and who
decides which people are on the lists.

Looking at the current British government it isn't even that hard to imagine
the wrong hands that this technology could get into and cause damage.

Who maintains the databases with 'wanted faces'? Imagining a some corrupt
corporation that just puts their enemies on these lists, think union leaders,
critical journalists, etc, again, isn't that hard.

Never mind that this tech, being tech, isn't perfect and there are probably
false positives that lead to very annoying situations.

~~~
shadowgovt
The converse scenario is also bad. Imagine an organized government subversion
cell that is willing to harm civilians to further its objectives and is
skilled at hiding in public (one doesn't have to try very hard given the
nature of asymmetric warfare in the 21st century). Surely, we want the ability
to locate their members as efficiently as possible?

Considering the dystopia 1984 predicted is a good idea, but one should also
consider the failure mode of "Snow Crash" anarchic dystopia, where
sufficiently-organized individuals use modern technology to harm innocent
people and government cannot stop them. The mafia stories in the US stem from
the era where city organized crime had firepower that out-gunned the police.

~~~
snarf21
No, I want locating those members to be hard. I understand human nature and we
know that no one will watch the watchers. There are lots of avenues for
tracking these groups but it requires real work. You have to infiltrate and
investigate.

You are also missing something. It is really about civilians being harmed? How
many people died last year from terrorism in the US or the UK? How many died
because people were texting and driving? Or drunk driving? Should we track
when you text and drive the same way? Should we have police sit outside of
every bar testing people to prevent harm? I think we all prefer to have the
presumption of innocence and to face consequences for our mistakes and crimes,
not to be tracked _in case_ we do.

~~~
shadowgovt
I think the UK is providing a very useful example of how one watches the
watchers. The government is accountable via elections and their power seems
held in check pretty well.

> I want locating those members to be hard

I respect your opinion, but the people who have lost loved ones to "random"
attacks don't generally share that view. Hell, part of the purpose of building
a society and a government is to minimize that kind of personal violence
against people.

~~~
Lio
The problem is that neither the government or police are really accountable
for abuse of these powers.

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, the police have admitted previously they’ve
abused surveillance powers to blacklist innocent people from construction jobs
simply for being members of trade unions. [1]

No body went to prison for that or lost their job and no governments were
brought down because of it.

A few companies paid compensation but some are still fighting it in court.

Until we can point to examples members of the police or security service being
in someway sanctioned for privacy abuses I don’t think anyone can say that the
system is working.

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/06/trade-
unioni...](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/06/trade-unionist-
refused-job-after-police-passed-details-to-blacklist)

~~~
shadowgovt
Sibling to this thread, it was noted that HUDOC has oversight and can fine a
government for human rights violations.

[https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/09/uk-surveillance-
regime...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/09/uk-surveillance-regime-
violated-human-rights)

~~~
Lio
Leaving aside any fallout from Brexit, there’s a world of difference between
“can” and “has”.

Until safeguards are proven to work and we have examples where they actually
haven’t been applied then they effectively don’t exist.

~~~
shadowgovt
""" Holds, by six votes to one,

(a) that the respondent State is to pay the applicants, within three months
from the date on which the judgment becomes final in accordance with Article
44 § 2 of the Convention, the following amounts, to be converted into the
currency of the respondent State at the rate applicable at the date of
settlement:

(i) to the applicants in the first of the joined cases: EUR 150,000 (one
hundred and fifty thousand euros), plus any tax that may be chargeable to the
applicants, in respect of costs and expenses;

(ii) to the applicants in the second of the joined cases: EUR 35,000 (thirty-
five thousand euros), plus any tax that may be chargeable to the applicants,
in respect of costs and expenses; """

[https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#_Toc524359882](https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#_Toc524359882)

One can debate how effective a EUR 185,000 fine is in restraining the UK, but
it strongly indicates the behavior was unacceptable and will be considered
unacceptable moving forward. Seems safeguards work.

------
thepete2
Anyone remember this guy [0] being fined 90 pounds for covering his face?

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oJqJkfTdAg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oJqJkfTdAg)

------
monkeynotes
The UK is one of the most surveilled countries in the world. Growing up in the
90s I began to see cameras appear in public spaces. By the time I emigrated to
Canada you could basically be tracked from town to city, cameras on the
street, on public transit, and on the motorways.

In Canada I rarely see any evidence of surveillance outside of the cities.
Public transit being the exception.

~~~
mayniac
I'm probably slightly younger than you, and I barely notice the CCTV cameras
anymore.

Weirdly, the one time I genuinely felt uncomfortable was last week. I saw a
traffic camera* swivel across a junction. Actually seeing a camera move in
such a way that it was clearly being operated by a human was genuinely
unnerving. I took a wrong turn so it wouldn't see me, for no real reason.

*One of these things: [https://d1ix0byejyn2u7.cloudfront.net/drive/images/uploads/p...](https://d1ix0byejyn2u7.cloudfront.net/drive/images/uploads/panel-images/Traffic_camera.jpg)

~~~
pbalau
> I barely notice the CCTV cameras anymore

Maybe because, as most UK citizens (at least the ones I've spoke to about
this), you know that most non traffic cameras are not under police control,
but under the control of the establishment that installed them, bars, pubs,
stadiums, office buildings etc and the police has to provide a good enough
reason, via a warrant, to actually see the footage.

There is also the matter of logistics, to connect every camera in say, London,
to a central location to process the data, you would need a crapload of infra
that doesn't exists at the moment. Not to mention how much processing power
you would need to use this tech for every camera.

I believe the most vocal voices to sort out the false positives will be the
police themselves. Deploying the stormtroopers for false positives, a few
times per day, is not going to sit well with them.

------
wuschel
Scary developments when it comes to state control. I wonder what the rest of
the EU is going to do [1] - we have to wait until February to find out.

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jan/17/eu-
eyes-t...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jan/17/eu-eyes-
temporary-ban-on-facial-recognition-in-public-places)

~~~
raverbashing
I just find it funny how the "concerned brexiters" that are always decrying EU
regulations are curiously absent from these discussions about face recognition
overreach.

~~~
gdhbcc
The EU has funded research on mass surveillance that use facial recognition
for decades.

------
sixothree
I have a doppelganger very close to my same age. We would often meet out and
about since we were in similar circles. People would always remark about our
similar looks. We would find out girls had sometimes dated both of us. It was
fun and quirky when we were young. But as an adult, I can't help but think of
it every time topics of live facial recognition come up.

------
thescriptkiddie
In a couple of years:

> London to deploy live facial recognition to find _unwanted_ faces in a crowd

~~~
Lio
One wonders if the populists will offer this a panacea for fear of illegal
immigrants.

If they sell it like that I could see the tabloids foaming at the mouth with
glee. :(

------
Ididntdothis
I wonder how much of this data is being used by politically motivated
operators to surveillance their opponents and other inconvenient people. In
the US there are a lot of partisans who will do anything that benefits their
party (or their own wallet) and will happily pass the data on. I bet a lot of
this is already going on with NSA and other agencies’ data without nobody ever
knowing.

Pretty scary future we are walking into and it seems there is no way to stop
it.

------
tomatocracy
Policing, by and large, relies on a high degree of consent from the population
- you need people who are willing to provide evidence, report crimes, etc.
Leaving civil liberties issues and effectiveness in a direct sense aside,
doing things like this which don't appear to have public support will result
in the loss of a chunk of that consent and make policing harder. This feels a
bit short sighted to me.

------
yesenadam
Gee, just tonight I finished _The Capture_ (2019), which features..London
police deploying live facial recognition to find wanted faces in crowds, and
numberplates on roads, and the secret service (and a protest group) faking
CCTV footage with deep fakes to put anyone they want in prison. I guess I
thought the London facial recognition was already a thing. Very good series,
by the way.

------
angry_octet
I wonder how well this works if people start wearing particulate/surgical face
masks. (Wearing masks in public is technically illegal.)

Also wondering if you can jam it by holding up printouts of people in front of
cameras.

------
DrOctagon
Privacy essentials 2020:

1\. Use a VPN when connecting to public WiFi

2\. DuckDuckGo for web searches

3\. Use cash where possible

4\. Billy Porter hat

------
spicyramen
Cloud companies definitely will be interested in continue monetizing this.
Would be interested to see if Google will finally do it after missing all
these juicy government contracts

------
tu7001
1984 is not an instruction manual.

------
lotux
China, China, China, China, China, OH UK too?

------
microdrum
This is why facerec is so important -- it, unlike any other technology yet
developed, can find abducted people. One suspects there's a silent majority
applauding these facerec companies. That majority is defined as anyone who has
been a victim of crime.

~~~
HarryHirsch
The near ubiquitous camera coverage in city centers has done _nothing at all_
to decrease the amount of late-night assaults and robberies. More foot patrols
when the lager palaces turn out would help, but we can't have that, it would
make sense.

~~~
microdrum
That is because the cameras haven't been connected to facerec AIs until now.
Now they will be.

~~~
zepto
Most crimes are against the state, and have gone unpunished until now.

