
Prototype ergonomic mechanical keyboards - obrajesse
http://blog.fsck.com/2013/12/better-and-better-keyboards.html
======
unwind
That was a very inspiring project, and read. Always impressive with people
doing "all trades": from pure ergnomimcal to mechanical design, to keyboard
driver firmware, to PCB design. Awesome!

I was happy to see the author settle for KiCad, having made a micro version of
the same journey I've settled for KiCad too, it's pretty nice once you start
getting going.

I was surprised to not see any mention of OSH Park when it came to board
manufacturing, I thought they were the default for small-scale prototyping,
and they're certainly competetive when it comes to price ($5 per square inch,
for threee boards). Being in Europe the shipping delay is intensely
frustrating, but otherwise OSH Park is like a dream come true.

Keep up the good work!

~~~
obrajesse
Thanks! OSH Park isn't a great deal for keyboard production. my keyboards are
on the order of 60 square inches. Ordering from Seeed, I get 10 copies of my
board for $200 in about a week.

------
eitally
I don't know if you contacted any of the big EMS companies, but they all --
with the possible exception of Foxconn -- take small projects and prototype
runs. Generally speaking, it's as part of a DFM engagement. For example, my
employer, Sanmina, streamlined Bloom Energy's functional prototype design from
5 PCBs down to 1, and cut overall complexity (and cost) by a large fraction in
the process. Flextronics opened their Lab IX in Milpitas, CA, to focus on
hardware startup development, too. If you think you might need real
engineering help and not just "dumb manufacturing", it may be worthwhile to
consider the big guys, too.

[http://sanmina.com/end-to-end-services/design-
engineering/in...](http://sanmina.com/end-to-end-services/design-
engineering/index.php)

~~~
obrajesse
I haven't, mostly because this is all out of pocket and I've been operating
with the assumption that larger vendors aren't going to be willing to work for
peanuts for an 'unstartup'

I'd love to find out I'm wrong. If you want to point your salesfolks at me,
I'd be happy to chat. I'm jesse at keyboard.io

------
pjungwir
I would love to find an ergonomic mechanical keyboard. I tried the Truly
Ergonomic but sent it back because it hurt my wrists. I'm not sure I'd like
the Kinesis bowls; perhaps I'll try it eventually. What I'd really like is a
Microsoft Natural keyboard, but with mechanical switches. Is there anything
like that out there?

~~~
jseliger
_I 'm not sure I'd like the Kinesis bowls; perhaps I'll try it eventually_

I got a review copy of the Kinesis Advantage, tried the keyboard for a while,
wrote a review ([http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2009/07/20/kinesis-
advantage/](http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2009/07/20/kinesis-advantage/)),
sent back the review copy, and, a couple weeks later, bought the Advantage.

YMMV, but I think they have a somewhat long return period in part to assuage
people in your situation.

~~~
mtrimpe
What would you use as a pointing device with the Kinesis though?

I've grown quite attached to the RollerMouse classic over the years as the
ultimate pointing device but I'm wondering how that would work with the
Kinesis.

Hacking a trackpad in the middle also seems like an odd compromise ...

~~~
Adrock
It's a shame that the images were lost after geekhack.org was hacked, but the
most compelling solution I saw was the mod to add a trackpoint:

[http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=32232.0](http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=32232.0)

You can see some attempts here:

[https://www.google.com/search?q=kinesis+trackpoint&tbm=isch](https://www.google.com/search?q=kinesis+trackpoint&tbm=isch)

When I first got my Kinesis Advantage, I secured the Adesso Smart Cat trackpad
to the middle:

[http://www.amazon.com/Adesso-Button-Glidepoint-Touchpad-
GP-4...](http://www.amazon.com/Adesso-Button-Glidepoint-Touchpad-
GP-410UB/dp/B000FVIHY0/)

It's what the other Kinesis users around me were using and it's the only wired
touchpad that could fit. It's a piece of garbage and I've given up on it. I've
fallen back on using my Evoluent Vertical Mouse, as it's the only mouse that
doesn't leave me in pain.

The real answer is that I've adapted my tools and workflow to be as keyboard
operational as possible, using a tiling window manager, Emacs, and Conkeror
for everything.

------
josh-wrale
As a sufferer of carpal tunnel syndrome, I can tell you that this palm rest
design is a bad idea. You're focusing the weight of each hand on a pressure
point which is sure to contribute to pinching the median nerve.

Also, separating the left and right hand boards from one another really helps
with joint stress. I saw one of the designs has a axle. Why not just split the
keyboard in two completely? I vote for each half of the keyboard having a
velcro strap that I can comfortably attach just above each of my knees. For
most people, this would be a very neutral posture. In fact, it may even
inspire better posture as folks would reach for the keys on their knees.. You
know.. You could call it KneeKeyboard or Keys-4-Knees. Then again, I'm sure
someone has already done it, but I'm too lazy/busy to look into it right now.

Other than those comments. Awesome stuff.

Edit: I'd like to add that the wrist pad suggests to me wrist movement is
required to reach all of the keys. Again, the carpal tunnel gnome tells me
that pivoting my wrist is painful. Why not strive for very little wrist
movement. Once you get there, the surface is it's own support, and it would
support more than just the wrist; it would support the forearm, too (see knee
keyboard suggestion above).

I also noticed one of the designs recessed the keys below the face of the
keyboard. I think that's a good way to get away from the vertical wrist
pivoting. Still, you'd need to mind the lip of the recess, so it's not a high
impact point on the wrist.

------
SmileyKeith
I've been looking to create a ErgoDox[0] which is a two part mechanical
design. Not sure I could deal with the split layout but I'm willing to try. It
looks pretty similar to the ones in this post and you build it yourself.

[0]: [http://ergodox.org/](http://ergodox.org/)

~~~
obrajesse
Yeah. That's where I started last year. (I 3D printed one before the PCBs were
done.) - blog.fsck.com/2013/01/pinkies-and-your-brain.html

~~~
SmileyKeith
Nice I really want to build one but I think I'd much rather buy the parts in a
kit than separately. I saw this wooden case[0] in a tweet and I think I'd want
to try my hand with that instead of the 3D printing.

[0]: [http://cl.ly/SvPT](http://cl.ly/SvPT)

~~~
lowboy
That's the ErgoDox, which is periodically sold in a parts kit by MassDrop
[https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox](https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox)

Registration is required for MassDrop, which is unfortunate - but they have to
do that to be classified as something other than a retailer so they can offer
lower prices.

I did a write-up of my year with an ErgoDox here:
[http://jjt.io/2013/11/25/why-any-developer-should-check-
out-...](http://jjt.io/2013/11/25/why-any-developer-should-check-out-the-
ergodox-keyboard/)

~~~
epsylon
Unfortunately I haven't seen it for sale on Massdrop since I've registered
months ago... Of all the mechanical keyboard designs I've seen, that's the
only one that makes sense to me ergonomically.

~~~
SmileyKeith
Yea I've been on the request list on this site for a few months as well. Would
really love it to happen.

~~~
lowboy
They _just_ finished a round a couple of weeks ago. Seems to come up every
couple of months.

Maybe you're just not getting notifications?

------
Alex_MJ
Out of curiosity, was there anything wrong with the two handed design (like
intrinsically/ergonomically, not wiring-related) that caused you to switch
back to a one-piece design after the Mark 9?

I've been wanting for years for the monitor-keyboard setup to be replaced by
something that's set up to a human body and not a table. Screen is set to your
head and not vice versa. Manual input devices are physically based on your
hands and not to a table. You don't have to lean forward to look at a screen.
You don't have to hunch over (or even tend to hunch over) to type and mouse.
Ergonomics problems vastly go out the window because you don't have to conform
your body to a machine built for compactness and manufacturability.

On the monitor front, once somebody mods the Oculus Rift for non-gaming [read:
programming etc] use, I'll dance an embarassing unskillful engineer jig and
then buy one immediately.

On the input (mouse/keyboard) front I'd love to have two devices attached to
my hands instead of having to reach forward to a keyboard (dual myo bands?
some kind of handheld gig?) so the two-handed keyboards are always intriguing
to me and I'd love to hear more about your experience with designing them.
(and in general).

Rock on!

~~~
obrajesse
The split design is..not great in my lap, which is usually where I rest my
keyboard. With better mechanical design, that could be better. But no, it's
mostly about manufacturability and simplicity for what will be my first
physical 'product'

------
analog31
I'm almost ready to say that "ergonomic keyboard" is an oxymoron.

Thinking outside the box: Some musical instruments have a small number of keys
for a large number of notes. Playing for long time periods without injury is
now part of the basic training that all musicians receive.

Maybe a model for an ergonomic keyboard would be something like a saxophone.

~~~
obrajesse
You want to look up 'chording keyboards' \- They're one of the few things from
Engelbart's 'Mother Of All Demos' that's not now a standard part of computing.

~~~
clarkm
Unfortunately, designers these days seem to hate modal interfaces because they
detract from "walkup usability", so I doubt we'll see these making a comeback.

Then again, maybe Apple's multi-touch gestures are close enough to chording
that they'll be rediscovered and become cool again.

------
pjungwir
Reading the story of your keyboard iterations was a lot of fun, and I'm very
interested in finding a mechanical keyboard that works for me. But I have to
ask: how can you possibly type with all those keys under your wrists? Am I the
only one wondering this? What am I missing?

~~~
sliverstorm
Those keys are not under the wrist, they are under the thumb. See the two
lonely rectangles, that are next to no other keys? The 2nd joint of the thumb
hovers right about there.

~~~
pjungwir
Thanks, that's reassuring! When I imagined putting my hands over the keys, I
couldn't figure out how my wrists would miss the "lonely rectangles," but
perhaps I'm visualizing it wrong.

------
daragh
I'm currently awaiting delivery of components to assemble an ErgoDox. The
later variations show here display an encouraging similarity to a lot of the
ErgoDox's features, although perhaps most interestingly a move away from
independent positioning of the two halves.

~~~
obrajesse
Actually, I _started_ from an ErgoDox. :) (
[http://blog.fsck.com/2013/01/pinkies-and-your-
brain.html](http://blog.fsck.com/2013/01/pinkies-and-your-brain.html) )

The ErgoDox is really the two halves of a Kinesis flattened.

Keyboard.IO is a little bit different. There's a splay of a few degrees
between the columns that map to each finger. A bunch of the work you do with
your pinkies on the ErgoDox or just about any other keyboard moves to your
thumbs. And yes, it ended up as a single keyboard. I really, really wanted to
do something that was two separate pieces. Between the risks it would add to
the mechanical design and the fact that I found myself intensely frustrating
that the two halves of the ErgoDox were never in quite the places I expected
them to be, we've decided to run with a single-piece unit, at least for the
Model 01.

------
brendoncrawford
"Ergonomic" has become a great buzzword. These keyboards are not ergonomic.
While they protect against ulnar deviation, they do not protect against
pronation and dorsiflexion. Note that you WILL still get RSI from using these
keyboards.

~~~
dpark
> _" Ergonomic" has become a great buzzword. These keyboards are not
> ergonomic._

"Ergonomic" is not a binary switch. A thing is not simply "ergonomic" or not.
And more importantly, what is ergonomic varies based on the user. For the
author, these keyboards are presumably more ergonomic than alternatives. For
you, they might not be.

> _Note that you WILL still get RSI from using these keyboards._

That's a rather strong claim, especially considering that many people never
get RSI even from standard keyboards.

~~~
brendoncrawford
Good points. This is a very cool project, and it will be fun to watch it
progress.

------
julianpye
As someone who has sworn by Microsoft's Natural Keyboards, you're on the right
track! Regarding the Datahand and Kinesis, which I just discovered in this
discussion - how would one be able to get their hands on them to test them?

~~~
obrajesse
It depends. Where do you live?

(And yeah, I spent a decade carrying a MS Natural Elite with me all over the
planet. I used to order 'em in four-packs.)

~~~
julianpye
Munich... I guess when I am in the US next time, I will send out a request
beforehand... But yeah, the MS Natural Elite is the keyboard that I have
ordered in bulk, too :)

------
X4
A list of all kinds of keyboards:
[http://asanisembiring.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/](http://asanisembiring.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/)

 _I think the SenseBoard Keyboard is the best amongst these._

------
maheart
I wish you'd kept with Mark 8/Mark 9 style (allowing you separate the two
halves of the keyboard). I find this the one killer feature of the Kinesis
FreeStyle. Unfortunately Kinesis Freestyle does not use mechanical keys.

~~~
obrajesse
I do too! And we'll get back to it. But I know that if we tried to ship a
splittable keyboard as our first product, we'd fuck it up. And I really don't
want to fuck this up.

------
taternuts
Cool! I've never tried the ErgoDox though I've been halfway wanting one for a
year or so. I think if I didn't have to jump through geekhack groupbuy's and
assemble it myself I may have made the jump. I noticed that the Mark2 was
closer to a HHKB or 60% layout and it does look quite a bit smaller than the
next iterations - is that just the pictures or is that true? Do you find the
split ErgoDox-like layout is better than a more compact keyboard, even if you
don't suffer from wrist pain?

~~~
obrajesse
It was very close to a 60% keyboard. It just wasn't better enough than a 60%
keyboard to really be worth my while. I find the split layout to be a lot more
comfortable. And I didn't even touch-type when I fell down this rabbit hole.

------
melling
My finger tips sometimes are numb. Personally, I'd like a virtual keyboard
where I don't need to touch anything. Any advanced Leap Motions or laser
keyboards being developed?

~~~
obrajesse
If your fingertips get numb while typing, STOP TYPING AND GO SEE A DOCTOR.
Ideally a doctor who specializes in Sports Medicine. I'm not kidding. This is
_not_ something to screw around with.

And there are all sorts of reasons why zero-feedback keyboards are a bad idea,
but that's a whole separate discussion. If you REALLY want a laser keyboard,
...aw [http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/laser-keyboard-
kit-p-1638.h...](http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/laser-keyboard-
kit-p-1638.html?cPath=85_108) is out of stock. There are plenty like it,
though.

~~~
melling
Isn't the usual solution to stop doing whatever causes the pain? There isn't a
known cure (ie pill, exercise, etc). If the impact of my fingers on the
keyboard is causing the numbness then my best option Is to find a way to
minimize the impact?

~~~
obrajesse
What's actually causing the pain could be any number of things, which is why I
was shouting about going to see a doctor ;)

------
rietta
Nice! I have not made the jump to ergonomic though I do have both a Unicomp
Model M and a DAS Keyboard (Cherry Blue) that are my prefered. Though neither
keyboard is ergonomic, its use is because it allows me to place my laptop on a
stand and use a second external monitor. This and switching to the Dvorak
keyboard layout has made a huge difference to me personally in terms of hand
comfort.

------
RexRollman
I like it. It looks a bit minimalist.

This makes me wonder what the most minimalist keyboard available currently is.
The Happy Hacking keyboard, I am guessing.

~~~
TacticalCoder
The HHKB (on which I type this) is kinda minimalist but it's still a "60%"
keyboard (no numpad, no functions keys and no arrow keys for the HHKB but some
60% have dedicated arrow keys). There are people who have custom 40% keyboards
(you simply use a modifier to access the "missing" numbers row).

The most minimalist has way less keys than that and is probably the DataHand
(or something close to it, like a one-handed DataHand if such a beast exist?).

I like the look of the keyboards he realized, reminds me of the ErgoDox. Not
that contrarily to the HHKB the keyboards in the blog aren't "staggered" and
are all split. The HHKB appeals to many because it has incredible switches
(Topre) yet stays very close to traditional keyboards that people have been
using for years and years. It's not easy to adapt to a non-staggered layout
and some people are allergic to split layouts.

If you're into that sort of thing, GeekHack.org and Deskthority.net are good
places to hang out on.

~~~
obrajesse
The most minimalist thing currently in production is probably:
[http://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/](http://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/)

~~~
TacticalCoder
Hey obra,

good to see a GHer on the front page of HN... It's a nice board you made there
and I prefer your thumbs key placement than the one on the ErgoDox, which I
find to be too a bit too close one to another.

~~~
obrajesse
Thanks!

The ErgoDox layout is nearly identical to the Kinesis and Maltron layouts, so
it's not exactly without precedent, but yeah. I think we can do better :)

------
kross
How is this better or worse than the Kinesis contoured keyboard? I've been
using one for more than 10 years.

~~~
obrajesse
I think the thumb layout is more comfortable and easier to use.

Kinesis users I've put in front of my prototypes come up to speed pretty
quickly.

Non-kinesis users seem to come up to speed a lot faster than they do when
confronted with the kinesis' bowls.

Also, it's a lot more portable.

And it's really, really fully programmable.

------
samstave
Why are they flat? you have a 3d hand and a 3d printer... would a curved
cylindrical/spherical setup.

~~~
obrajesse
Manufacturability. Something curved/contoured would be better, but I would
rather make something good than fail to make something better.

------
Arelius
This is awesome, I'd love to do it. I type on a Kinesis most of the time, and
it's great.

The one thing I wish I had though, was a laptop with a split space bar. Thumb
delete is the best keyboard innovation in like 20 years.

~~~
wtallis
Meanwhile, most keyboards (especially desktop boards) have spacebars so wide
that none of the modifier keys are easily reachable by thumb. C through M
should be the widest allowable spacebar, and splitting it is great.

~~~
dsr_
I'm typing this on a Unicomp Model M-compact clone, an Ultra Classic. The
spacebar goes from C through just past M and into ,. Buckling springs and a
reasonable ($79) price.

------
tuananh
I look at some of the prototype and I don't know how exactly how i'm going to
place my hands on that.

Like this one

    
    
        https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3666/11330346296_f2c62e4250_c.jpg

~~~
to3m
The four keys arranged in a circle are for pressing with the tip of your
thumb. I imagine the one in the centre of the circle is for use with the base
of your thumb.

~~~
tuananh
that one in the center of the circle is what making me confused.

if i can't rest my hands on the keyboard, what's the point of ergonomic!

~~~
obrajesse
You can. If you're resting the outer sides of your palms on the keyboard and
resting the heel of your thumb on the palm keys, they won't activate. you have
to push down slightly to get them to.

------
hansstam
huge disclaimer: i work for a company that is about the be aquired by primax.

As you can see above, I'm working for a company that is currently being bought
by [http://primax.com.tw/](http://primax.com.tw/) . I went on a factory tour
of their facotry here inb China a few days ago. They are basicly the biggest
keyboard-producing factory in China/ the world. I love the mark 13, and it
would be awesome if it could be mass-produced. Primax might be the right
factory for that.

~~~
obrajesse
Have your sales folks reach out to me? jesse at keyboard.io

~~~
hansstam
Can't really do that, cause I'm new and working on the engineering side of
things. We don't usually communicate with sales people. Shoot them an email
yourself.

~~~
obrajesse
'k

------
urza
Somebody please do microsoft's Natural keyboard with Cherry MX Clear keys. And
fixed transceiver. That would solve it for me.

------
tlarkworthy
put a trackball in the middle near the thumbs, that switch to mouse control
from keyboard kills me

~~~
obrajesse
That's what the Maltron does. I don't find it all that comfortable.

I've actually got something better up my sleeve, but I'm still working on
sourcing the parts.

~~~
cgh
Which switches do you plan to use? Really like the sounds of this (I read your
entire page, sorry to hear about your printer catching on fire!).

I looked for an ergo mechanical keyboard but couldn't find one to my liking so
ended up with a Filco Majestouch 2 with Cherry Blue switches. Really love it
except for the whole lack of ergonomics thing. The Cherry Blues are fantastic.

~~~
meowface
I have the exact same keyboard (Majestouch, with Cherry Blues). Been using it
for the past few years, and I love it.

Do ergonomic keyboards allow you to type faster? Or do they just let you rest
your hands more naturally?

~~~
obrajesse
That is a matter of some debate. Even in the scientific literature. But I do
know that when it hurts less for me to type, I can type for longer stretches.
And that's way more important to me than typing faster.

------
prehkugler
And here I am, just trying to find notched Dvorak replacement key caps for my
MacBook Pro...

~~~
obrajesse
Tiny dots of Sugru.

(Alternatively, many folks recommend you _not_ relabel your keys when trying
to learn a new layout.)

------
shellehs
I think it would be very helpful to prevent twisting my wrist as QWERTY
standard keyboard.

~~~
obrajesse
Exactly.

------
fsckin
Jesse: what is your ideal retail price on these, if you had a good number of
preorders?

~~~
obrajesse
I don't have a number I'm ready to share in public. That's the big thing
that's holding up a Kickstarter. Once we've got a manufacturing partner and
know what our costs are, I'll be in a better place to give you a number.

We're working to build something that's going to work well and look gorgeous
for a really long time. It's not going to be cheap, but I don't think we could
justify charging more than Kinesis do for the Advantage.

------
DonGateley
Iteration is the child of patience. Patience is the child of passion.

------
efnx
I swear by my datahands.

~~~
daeken
I really wish Datahands were available for purchase. No one gets rid of them,
and they aren't produced anymore (I tried emailing them numerous times before
their site disappeared -- nothing). If anyone wants to sell a set, I'm buying!

~~~
ne0phyte
Good luck with that. Depending on the condition they go $1500-2000+ on eBay
these days.

------
scoofy
If you are going to spend this much time on ergo keyboards, please just learn
Dvorak. The comfort improvement alone is one reason (of many) to switch.

~~~
obrajesse
"Just" learning Dvorak isn't necessarily going to help people. For me, the
angles I need to keep my wrists at to type on a traditional keyboard are a
showstopper, no matter what layout I'm using. I've previously taught myself
Dvorak. And Colemak. Both are, indeed, clearly better than QWERTY. They're not
better enough to justify continuing to use a physical layout designed around
130 year old mechanical constraints.

Please note that I'm not saying people shouldn't ditch QWERTY. They should.
But that alone isn't enough to just declare the battle won and go home.

(While the keyboard.io prototypes are labeled in QWERTY, the firmware speaks
Dvorak and Colemak as well. As of last weekend, it also speaks Workman and a
variant of the Maltron layout.)

~~~
scoofy
I'm certainly not saying ergo keyboards aren't useful. It's just that
dedicating dozens of prototypes that will always float hands up and to the
right (to get at the vowels) seems a fools errand. Ergos are great! I just
think, in the same way a cyclist can buy a $4000 bike to save 10 lbs, when a
moderate diet would achieve the same weight reduction, that it seems a bit
misplaced resources.

~~~
sparkie
I'm a dvorak user and I agree with others that while it is useful, it's not
sufficient alone for a good typing experience. Typing x, z, f is still more
awkward than it needs to be, enter/backspace etc is difficult, and ctrl is in
a really awful position on standard keyboards. (I'm sure every emacs user will
agree.)

The difference is more like using an off-road bicycle to travel on flat roads.
It's just the wrong tool for the job. The standard keyboard layout was
designed how it is for a specific purpose: to allow physical parts to move on
old typewriters. The placement of keys serves little purpose to the typist.

In our collective madness though, we have adapted ourselves to typewriter
layouts, rather than adapting the layout to fit our hands when the requirement
for moving physical parts disappeared.

The higher price of ergo keyboards is mainly a consequence of a much smaller
market. Standard keyboards are only so cheap because they're mass produced,
and have had countless iterations to simplify the production process over the
years.

I'm in desperate need of a better ergo keyboard and I find projects like this
one fascinating. I tried designing one myself a while back, but I don't have
the skills to make it happen.

