
Introducing JetBrains Toolbox - blacktulip
http://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2015/09/03/introducing-jetbrains-toolbox/
======
lol768
One of the things I liked about the previous model was that I could continue
using an older version of the software, assuming it met my needs and evaluate
future planned features and future versions before deciding to purchase an
upgrade or new license. If I don't renew, I don't get support and I can't use
the new features in the new version - but I can still use the software I
purchased in the state it was in.

If I'm understanding correctly, there's no option not to upgrade and continue
using an old version of the product under the new model - the instant you stop
paying, the product can no longer be used (after the month has finished).
Personally this makes me feel like I don't 'own' the software anymore -
instead, I'm just renting it.

I'm also interested to see if IntelliJ IDEA Ultimate will continue to offer
the other language plugins (PHP, Python etc) that allows it to do what the
other IDEs do under this pricing model.

I'd have no problem with this pricing approach if it was available alongside
the existing system - so developers who use many different languages can use
the subscription service if they feel it offers better value for them.
Developers who prefer the previous model can opt to continue renewing annually
to receive support and updates. I'm somewhat surprised and disappointed to see
JetBrains forcing everyone down this path once their existing licenses have
expired.

~~~
gorohoroh
If you have an existing perpetual license, you can use it infinitely, just as
the license agreement stated when you purchased it.

We do however offer a switch to the new model if you like it and if you're
interested in new versions that your perpetual license doesn't cover. If you
do switch to the new model, you pay as long as you need to use a tool, and you
always get the latest version.

IntelliJ Ultimate will continue to offer language plugins, nothing changes in
this regard.

~~~
drivingmenuts
Adobe did this - I adapted to alternative tools, which also turned out to be
cheaper in the long run.

I love PHPStorm, but I'm not married to it. Once this rental plan goes into
effect, it will be time to find something else.

~~~
thawkins
Agreed

------
coldtea
I'm already in 10 subscription services, from Dropbox and iCloud to Abobe,
music plugins, etc. How much worse would it be in the future, when we'd
regularly have to fork $500 per month or so (rent money in most of the world)
just to keep using our software?

The situation reminds me of this part from Ubik by Philip K. Dick:

Back in the kitchen he fished in his various pockets for a dime, and, with it,
started up the coffeepot. Sniffing the - to him - very unusual smell, he again
consulted his watch, saw that fifteen minutes had passed; he therefore
vigorously strode to the apt door, turned the knob and pulled on the release
bolt.

The door refused to open. It said, “Five cents, please.” He searched his
pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the door.
Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. “What I pay you,” he
informed it, “is in the nature of a gratuity; I don’t have to pay you.”

“I think otherwise,” the door said. “Look in the purchase contract you signed
when you bought this conapt.”

In his desk drawer he found the contract; since signing it he had found it
necessary to refer to the document many times. Sure enough; payment to his
door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip.

“You discover I’m right,” the door said. It sounded smug. From the drawer
beside the sink Joe Chip got a stainless steel knife; with it he began
systematically to unscrew the bolt assembly of his apt’s money-gulping door.

“I’ll sue you,” the door said as the first screw fell out. Joe Chip said,
“I’ve never been sued by a door. But I guess I can live through it.”

A knock sounded on the door. “Hey, Joe, baby, it’s me, G. G. Ashwood. And I’ve
got her right here with me. Open up.” “Put a nickel in the slot for me,” Joe
said. “The mechanism seems to be jammed on my side.”

A coin rattled down into the works of the door; it swung open and there stood
G. G. Ashwood with a brilliant look on his face. It pulsed with sly intensity,
an erratic, gleaming triumph as he propelled the girl forward and into the
apt.

~~~
farmdog
On top of the money going out periodically, it's about the cognitive load it
places on the customers. I have enough decisions to make every day; additional
services to consider adds the amount of time I need to think about writing off
certain subscriptions from my taxes, whether or not I renew, time to make sure
my credit card is up to date, check to make sure my subscription doesn't
require when I'm on vacation without Internet and want to code, etc. A one-
time purchase loads all of that into a single occurrence where I need that
product instead of bringing it up at a calendar-determined interval.

My company uses WebStorm regularly because it's a solid IDE for Linux; I've
heard of Visual Studio Code running on Linux; have people found that
comparable?

~~~
Notre1
Visual Studio Code isn't an IDE. It's a text editor, similar to Sublime Text
and Atom.

Your major options for a web development IDE on Linux would be Aptana/Eclipse
and Netbeans.

------
jaboutboul
"Will I be able to upgrade my perpetual license to a new perpetual license or
renew my upgrade subscription? No. Major version upgrades for perpetual
licenses to new perpetual licenses will no longer be offered as of November 2,
2015. As an existing customer, you will be able to switch your perpetual
license to our new subscription based model with a discount."

Well let me be the first to say, this sucks. As a user (and lover) of
Jetbrains products (pycharm, IDEA, phpstorm) over the years, I never though
they would ever go down this path.

~~~
gorohoroh
Let's discuss. Why do you think this is bad?

~~~
anu_gupta
Because right now, we can pay a one time fee and use the software as long as
we want, without incurring any more cost in return for not getting updates or
imposing a cost on JetBrains.

However, from November, that will no longer be possible. If Jetbrains decides,
in 2016, to increase the license fee to $300 per year, or $500, then we will
have 2 options: Pay it and continue to have access, or don't pay, and lose all
access to the tools, despite the fact that we have already given you money. If
I have a cashflow problem, I can no longer decide to stay with last year's
version for a while, instead I lose access.

I'm sure you know this, I'm sure everyone at JetBrains knows this.

~~~
s73v3r
The license seems to say that if you stop paying, you can still use the most
recent version as of when your subscription expired. So technically you could
subscribe for one month, get the software, and keep using it until you saw a
version that was compelling enough to upgrade to.

~~~
anu_gupta
That's not how I'm reading it, and I'd be amazed if that was the case, because
then, you literally could pay £6 and get PHPStorm to use forever.

~~~
s73v3r
That's according to a post earlier in the thread from the guy I presume is
from JetBrains. It's also similar to the license Epic had for Unreal Engine,
before they got rid of the monthly fee.

~~~
anu_gupta
You seem to be conflating the perpetual licence, which is what we have
currently and will stop being available in November with the new subscription.
If I do not move to the subscription model, I can continue to use my current
version of PHPStorm, in perpetuity.

However, I cannot subscribe under the new terms, and keep using the software
if I decide to stop subscribing. Earlier in this thread you suggested that we
could subscribe for a month and keep using the software afterwards. This is
incorrect. Once you stop subscribing, you lose the rights to use the software

------
shrugisor
I'm actually quite upset about this. I love PyCharm and I've always upgraded
to most recent major version because even though I didn't necessarily need all
the new features, I wanted to support JetBrains for making such great
software.

So now I'm stuck using PyCharm 4.x forever unless I pay a monthly fee to
upgrade. And if I stop paying I lose access to my IDE? Truly an awful way to
treat loyal customers.

I can only hope that JetBrains abandons this new SaaS model or has some plan
to allow users to purchase either a perpetual license or a subscription a-la
Microsoft Office.

If not, then I hope Atom or Sublime Text get some robust debugging plugins for
Python like PyCharm has.

~~~
thawkins
I agree, im a cLion and a PhpStorm licensee, and this is a disaster. Im going
to have to start moving back to netbeans.

We where about to kit out our entire department with phpstorm but now its
going to be really really hard to justify this. This is nothing about being
more convient for customers, its about screwing more money out of people. I am
very very disapointed.

~~~
gorohoroh
For commercial PhpStorm licenses a rough comparison would as follows.

Before November 2: First year: $199 a seat Each subsequent year: $129 a seat

After November 2: First year and each subsequent year: $119-149 a seat
(with/without a promotion available)

~~~
lol768
Except that before November 2nd a company could pay $199 once and never again
until they felt the need to upgrade.

Following November 2nd, a company has no choice but to cough up the yearly fee
or the software stops working and the developers can't do any work without
changing the software they use.

~~~
timv
_cough up the yearly fee or the software stops working and the developers can
't do any work_

Yup, and all it takes is for an invoice to get misplaced or delayed in your
accounts payable team and development grinds to a halt.

------
tomku
If you want to fix this and regain some of the respect that you've lost in the
past few hours, here's my suggestion.

Keep the subscription model. Set the non-discounted prices for a year's
subscription at the same price level that perpetual license upgrades were. The
monthly prices can be higher, maybe 20% more for a year billed monthly than
annually. Offer a 10% grandfathered discount to apologize to your current
customers for forcing them onto a subscription model. Don't offer any kind of
promotional discount on the "all the Jetbrains" package deal - it's already
underpriced. I think that this is a reasonable compromise that allows
switching to a subscription model without screwing over either old or new
customers.

Additionally, be honest. Many of your customers and most of your users are
developers. We understand the upsides and downsides of a subscription model
from both perspectives. Trying to spin away those downsides will backfire and
leave us feeling taken advantage of. You've spent many years building up all
this developer goodwill, it would be a shame to lose it over something like
this.

~~~
gorohoroh
That's a great comment, thank you. Let me check how all the prices relate once
again and come back to you.

------
mkaziz
If they're interested in doing this for the customer's sake, they should offer
the customer a choice. If they're ramming it down people's throats, then
they're really just doing it for their wallets.

------
hoopism
I am struggling to see how this benefits the consumer.

I read that whole release wondering if they actually believed that this was
some sort of reaction to consumer demand or if they just think people are
incredibly ignorant.

No thanks.

Surprised I didn't see a tweet that read:

"Dear JetBrains. I loved buying your product so much I want to do it EVERY
month!"

~~~
snuxoll
Personally, as a polygot developer who works a lot in both Visual Studio with
ReSharper and IntelliJ, this is an overall cost savings for me and simplifies
things a lot. Instead of paying my $99/yr to renew IntelliJ, and another
$129/yr to upgrade ReSharper - I can switch to the $149/yr 'everything
included` plan and get a couple tools I don't already have (CLion being a big
one).

If you're the kind of person who doesn't maintain their existing S&M
subscription then it will end up costing you more, but typically this will
break even for people that do regularly maintain them.

EDIT: Am I honestly getting downvoted because I'm not hopping aboard the wold-
is-ending-because-subscriptions-are-bad circlejerk? I expect this kind of
behavior on Reddit, not HN.

It's not like I'm telling anyone "you're wrong" for not liking the changes,
but I certainly hope I'm allowed to state my opinion too.

~~~
teacup50
This is a short-sighted view. JetBrains now controls pricing, and the
relationship itself is coercive.

This means that you have no control over pricing, and that JetBrains doesn't
need to worry about whether you'll renew year-to-year if they don't produce
upgrades that make your renewal worthwhile.

Long-term mutually beneficial economic relationships are rarely built on top
of coercive models that give one party such an enormous advantage.

~~~
cscharenberg
I am having trouble understanding this viewpoint. For my position, I buy
PyCharm Professional license, paying about $50 for each one year license. I
plan to keep buying that license every year to get upgrades. To me, I end up
paying the same price every year. If I want to try a tool for a month I can
pay a few dollars for it, then let it go. To me, that's an advantage.

I am curious about "JetBrains now controls pricing". Haven't they always? If
they raised their price outrageously for yearly upgrade model, they would lose
customers, so that's true of new and old system. I have control of whether I
pay their price or not, but they get to control the price, as always.

I understand to some degree that losing access to a tool is an inconvenience,
but it doesn't strike me as a terrible burden. It's all just a view into the
code, there's nothing irreplaceable about it. So renting compared to having
guaranteed permanent access is a loss, but it doesn't seem that awful - but
that's very different person to person.

Anyway, I am legitimately curious to hear more about this viewpoint. I _kind_
of get it but don't have the strong visceral reaction to it as many others on
here. Is it a use case difference, of people who skip upgrades versus those
who don't and pay every year? Or is it fundamentally a philosophical stance on
own versus rent?

~~~
thawkins
If you are on the subscription and jetbrains sudenly hikes the price beyond
your pain point, then you lose the tool completly, you cant even run the out
of date versions. Under the old scheme you could just stop paying the upgrade
and not get any new versions, but still carry on using the product.

~~~
snuxoll
> If you are on the subscription and jetbrains sudenly hikes the price beyond
> your pain point

Certainly a reasonable concern, it'd be nice if they implemented some kind of
pricing guarantee. It sure wouldn't alleviate the concerns of everyone, but I
think it'd go a long way towards showing goodwill.

------
mekael
My department (for the most part) has a "no subscription" policy when it comes
to most things, especially tools. I love using ReSharper and 0xDBE (possibly
the number two application in my toolbox), but it will be hard to justify this
to management. If you offered a perpetual license after 12 months, or kept
both SAAS and the perceptual license(you could charge quite a bit more in this
case) it would be excellent.

Edit: If you charged me 10 bucks a month for 0xDBE I wouldnt be able to get it
approved even on a good day. Charge us 500 a year then the check would be cut
that afternoon.

------
wildmXranat
Dude - just no! Stop making me rent desktop tools which ought to be just there
after I pay for them. I will not be upgrading PyCharm and PHPStorm annual
after this. It will happily stay in the old version. Even though my cost of
$49 that I paid last year is still the same in this pricing model, but instead
of that price being the norm, it is qualified with a double asterix.- as in
for existing users.

So new users are getting shafted an extra 30 bones on top of what I pay. So in
solidarity with new users, thanks but no thanks. Pretty bogus if you ask me.

------
dump100
if anyone from jetbrains here, in India it is showing prices using hindi
(devanagari) numerals which are no longer in common use, even when text is in
Hindi, most people will not even understand it. Would recommend to regular
numerals.

~~~
caio1982
Hey, that's quite funny if you consider these "numerals" were actually
developed in India eons ago. That's full circle enough to me:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu%E2%80%93Arabic_numeral_s...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu%E2%80%93Arabic_numeral_system)

------
ddorian43
tldr: We learned that we can charge much more for our products and we're doing
just that. Here are some useless tweets.

------
Stratoscope
From the FAQ:

> 9\. Can I use my personal license on multiple machines?

> You may install the license on more than one machine but it may be used on
> only one machine at a time. To run multiple installations simultaneously,
> each instance requires a separate license.

[https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb](https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb)
(#9 under License Types and Users)

Will I still be able to run multiple instances of ReSharper on the same
machine? This is pretty essential to my workflow. For example, I have three
instances of VS2015 open at the moment: One for my Unity project, another for
a C# plugin, and a third for the installer. ReSharper runs fine in all of
them.

I can also run these on my Windows machine while having IDEA open on my Mac.
(Actually the Windows machine is a Parallels VM, but same difference.) Will
this capability go away? That would be unfortunate.

~~~
cscharenberg
This is a good question. I usually have multiple PyCharm instances running and
have never had a problem. I never thought about it until my wife started up
PyCharm on my other computer and I got a notice saying another computer on the
network was using a license and one of us needed to quit.

JetBrains needs to reassure us multiple instances are ok on same machine and
across VMs. Will running the IDE in OS X and also a guest Linux VM look like
multi-machine use? If so, that's really a bad flaw in licensing.

~~~
Stratoscope
I was under the impression that they treat a VM like a separate machine - but
now I'm not sure. I started IDEA in OSX and a Windows 10 VM on the same
machine ten minutes ago, and so far neither instance has complained. I know
IDEA has complained when I've run it on the Mac and my ThinkPad.

If this is legit and I can run IDEA on the host machine and in one or more VMs
on the same machine, that would be a very good thing for multiplatform
developers.

------
brianwawok
I really really really hate renting software.

On the flip side - IntelliJ comes out with a new version every single year,
and if you don't upgrade you are kind of screwed (At least as someone who
codes latest cut of Scala)

So not a big change to my wallet, but it does make me sad a little.

------
anu_gupta
Odd that this is suddenly on the 3rd page of HN - has it been flagged or
attracted some kind of penalty?

~~~
noarchy
I was suspicious of this, too, as I am anytime a seemingly-popular article
suddenly vanishes from the front page.

------
redwards510
I understand that people wouldn't like the idea of not "owning" their copy,
but is this really that much different than what we're doing already?

current model: purchase new upgraded version of resharper every year (or two).
abandon old version.

new model: subscribe to resharper. upgrade when new version comes out. abandon
old version.

Is anyone really using a copy of resharper 6 right now? and VS2010?

~~~
bobcostas55
The difference is that the new purchases provided a strong incentive to
JetBrains to make their software better. If the new version doesn't add
anything useful, people wouldn't upgrade.

Now you have to keep paying whether they add features or not.

~~~
dragonwriter
OTOH, if the subscription price is substantially lower than the pre-
subscription purchase price, JetBrains has to keep improving faster than the
competition long enough to get you to keep buying the subscription for several
cycles instead of switching to a competing option or they are losing money
from going from outright purchase to subscription.

~~~
Aldo_MX
But it isn't unless you purchase the bundle with every application, the worst
offender is WebStorm, with a price of 99 USD/year vs the price of 29
USD/upgrade it had in the past.

~~~
dragonwriter
> But it isn't unless you purchase the bundle with every application

The initial buy-in is cheaper for many products than it was previously, so for
_new_ developers they have to have some ability to retain people to even break
even with subscription licensing.

The annual subscription seems to be more expensive than the current per-
upgrade add-on price for most products, though. And, of course, there are
some, like WebStorm, where the annual subscription price is more even the new-
purchase price under the old model.

So, its kind of a mixed bag.

------
endijs
If this change is so beneficial to users - lets put it to the test. JetBrains
- put up public voting (which you do not have control over) and let us vote on
which licensing deal we like more: old one or new one. Then we can talk if
this is really something that developers really want.

~~~
wvenable
Honestly if the pricing was better and some of the smaller tier plans let me
use more products, I might be good with it. But this is literally the same
cost for less product unless I want to pay more to get everything.

------
fiveoak
It's pretty cool to finally have a discount option to subscribe to all of the
JetBrains products. When my existing IntelliJ license free upgrade period
expires I'll probably subscribe to the "all products" option. That said, it's
a bit upsetting they don't seem to offer corporate perpetual licenses anymore.
It's a lot easier to justify the expense when it could be a one-time expense.
Suddenly having your critical work tools stop working (for instance, during a
budget freeze) is somewhat unacceptable.

~~~
gorohoroh
Yes, the change applies to corporate licenses, too. As a bonus for them,
there's a transparent model of discounts based on number of licenses and term
of payment
([https://www.jetbrains.com/toolbox/#commercial](https://www.jetbrains.com/toolbox/#commercial))

We're used to helping users of commercial licenses who are faced with delayed
payments in their companies, and I'm sure we'll be doing this with the new
model as well.

------
selleck
Better buy Webstorm now so I can get it as a perpetual license.

I can see October being a huge month where people buy perpetual copies of
tools they were thinking about buying in the past.

------
beagle3
I can find no mention about what happens to the community edition. Will it
still be available, or is it going to disappear?

~~~
gorohoroh
IntelliJ IDEA Community Edition, dotPeek and all other free tools stay free as
before. Nothing changes in this respect.

------
acveilleux
As someone who mostly uses PyCharm and doesn't do web work, I guess this will
have no effect on me for quite a while. Almost all the new PyCharm features
I've noticed in 4.5 have had to do with web frameworks, none of which I use.

------
slccsoccer28
This came up earlier and I ended up writing a lettering to Jetbrians.

If you are upset by this change, please let Jetbrains know! Customer input has
helped companies reverse similar policies in the past.

You can quickly customize and send it out here (this site has been a side
project for me): [https://www.sincerelyme.org/everything-else/jetbrains-
subscr...](https://www.sincerelyme.org/everything-else/jetbrains-subscription-
based-model_i50)

\------

It's also copied into the post below:

Email at: busdev@jetbrains.com

Facebook at:
[https://www.facebook.com/JetBrains](https://www.facebook.com/JetBrains)

More at:
[https://www.jetbrains.com/company/contacts/](https://www.jetbrains.com/company/contacts/)

\----

Dear Jetbrains,

I am writing to express my thorough disappointment with the decision for
Jetbrains to switch to a subscription based model. While I understand the need
for businesses to monetize, I feel that this monetization strategy is
completely over looking the needs and desires of your historically loyal user
base. I could understand this decision if your products were serviced-based or
hosted (i.e. cloud) solutions, but as a stand-alone, desktop software this
decision only serves to benefit one party.

Not only are you questioning historically loyal users by continuously asking
them to show their support for your product, you are literally devaluing your
product by requiring me to repurchase it on a recurring basis. No longer do I
have the option to purchase a high-value, life long, perpetual license for
your product. I do not understand how Jetbrains can drag themselves to the
ranks of often, lackluster subscription based software.

I have long been a loyal and vocal advocate for Jetbrains software and
customer service. Your software does make my job easier and I do enjoy using
it. Your customer support and involvement with your loyal community has long
been top notch. I often go out of my way to explain why I love using your
products, like Webstorm and PHPStorm, and have convinced many people to switch
to Jetbrains. After this decision, I have no desire to continue advocating
your historically incredible software and intend to make it very clear to
potential users of how you’ve decided to treat loyal users.

This decision shows a lack of empathy for the community you have worked so
hard to build and I am extremely concerned about your future considerations of
myself and the rest of the community. Unless Jetbrains decides to amend this
new policy with consideration for traditional, perpetual based licenses, I
will no longer be purchasing new offerings. I will use the current version of
software. When I feel they are no longer suitable for use, I will look for
alternatives offering perpetual licenses or simply use a text editor.

Again, your software does make my job easier and I do enjoy using it, but I
want to make it clear that I do not need to you your software. There are
plenty of acceptable alternative IDE's and, of course, I can always use a
standard text editor.

I hope Jetbrains can recognize the error of their ways and address this issue
in response to the community. I want to continue enjoying your products and
advocating for a historically incredible brand.

Sincerely,

{Your Name}

------
TheLoneWolfling
I do not "rent" software. Full stop.

