

Textbooks must die - niyazpk
http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2009/06/textbook-rant.html

======
Maro
Here in eastern Europe, university is somewhat different then in the anglo-
saxon world. We don't have homework problems (homeworks are never part of the
final grade), and exams at the end of the semester are usually oral where the
student has to prove theorems/algorithms or in general present some kind of
theoretical framework. There is usually a problem-solving exam mid-year, but
it only makes up 0-25% of the grade. It's usually managable to pass the
problem-solving exam, the real _Suck_ is the oral examination at the end when
you're face-to-face with the professor.

As a result of this skew toward the theoretical side, our textbooks are light
on problems and practicalities and full of theories, proofs, derivations, etc.
(Even a Calculus 101 textbook.) They look more like upper-level textbooks in
the anglo-saxon world. As a result, these "textbooks" are usually kept around
for later reference.

This is currently changing with the introduction of the so-called 'Bologna
process', which basically transforms our systems to more closely match the
anglo-saxon world for compatibility reasons. Eg. before we only had 5 year MSc
degrees, now we introduced the 3+2 Bsc/Msc system, which is a Good Thing.

Just because a (text)book is kept around for later reference doesn't mean it
should be printed, as an electronic version is actually more searchable. The
main obstacle is the 'reading off an LCD screen sucks sitting at the desk'
issue, which once solved with a good DRM-free paper-like device will do to the
Book Industry what MP3 has done to the Music Industry.

Already you can torrent almost any book, even ones that only interest a
handful of people in the world, such as research-level physics books (example
from my field: search for 'darksiderg cosmology'). The fact that these highly
specialized books are torrented a few months after their publication date is
pretty puzzling to me =) But I don't complain, as I can preview before I buy
(we don't have bookstores selling english-language books, so checking them out
at the bookstore is not an option). But once people can copy these to a book-
like device, publishers will have to look for another revenue stream.
Fortunately, with research-level books, the answer in theory at least is
pretty simple: just cut out the publisher, researchers already generate print-
ready Latex files anyways. In reality it will be a long struggle; a good use-
case is research journals where the publisher is completely unnecessary but is
still holding on, researchers are still signing over publication rights of
their papers to companies like Springer.

------
alexjmann
I had a similar conversation with the Dean of my business school the past
semester, basically telling him that physical textbooks lagged the available
technology. He didn't want to hear it because "the number one seller of
textbooks on campus WAS the university."

~~~
azanar
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends
upon his not understanding it!"

It seems your Dean would've been good friends with Upton Sinclair.

Although, it does raise what I think is an interesting question. It has been
said on here a lot that markets tend to see monopolies as market damage, and
route around them; this isn't quite that severe, but seems to be a vertical
monopoly to a certain degree. How would one route around this? The obvious
option would be "go to school somewhere else," but this seems endemic in
academia as a whole.

~~~
johnnybgoode
_this seems endemic in academia as a whole_

Yes, because this is not even close to a free market. See
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658165>

------
russell
Seth is right on. Textbooks should be gone within ten years, especially the
college introductory and public school pablum. I expect there will be some
resistance. Textbooks probably count for a lot in the publish or perish race
and they bring a nice side income. But decades ago other professors were
putting together xeroxed collections of articles. Students are demanding some
relief. I cant see anything but the trend snowballing.

I cant help but wonder if the demise of textbooks will lead to other
significant revolutions. I remember sweating through problem after problem in
calculus so I could do problem after problem on the tests. Wouldnt it be
better to give the students Mathematica or similar software? It could do the
work, while giving them a tool to get a deeper understanding of the underlying
problem.

~~~
caffeine
_Wouldn't it be better to give the students Mathematica or similar software?
It could do the work [...]_

This is really a tough one. My opinion is no - the sweat _is_ the learning.
Skipping the problems would just lead to knowing a lot _about_ math, without
actually knowing any math.

On the other hand, it's tempting - and in the Real World (tm), people do just
plug their giant, buck-nasty equations into Mathematica and avoid doing all
the book-keeping.

I guess the question is: should pilots all just train on auto-pilot, while
having only a conceptual understanding of what piloting is about? Or should
they learn to pilot manually first, and then use the auto-pilot judiciously?
There are legitimate points going both ways - but I vote for the 2nd.

------
credo
>>"A textbook author in Toronto made enough money from his calculus textbook
to afford a $20 million house."

Let us see, many movie stars, many wall street bankers, many atheletes, many
businessmen etc. make far bigger amounts of money.

...and Seth Godin has a problem with the author of one testbook making money

~~~
martey
Except that it is difficult to take a class without buying the textbook, and
they are expensive. When was the the last time your professor mandated that
you see a certain sports team play, but base tickets cost $100?

~~~
petercooper
It's difficult to take a programming class without owning a computer and they
are expensive too.

High fixed costs relating to an academic activity do not provide indicators to
the ethics of the people who produce the required items.

~~~
nova
Yes but the professor is not the only provider of the required computer.

~~~
petercooper
Serious question: Is it common for professors to require the purchase of their
own titles for a class?

------
gamble
>> "Professors should be spending their time devising pages or chapterettes or
even entire chapters on topics that matter to them, then publishing them for
free online."

Some of the worst classes I had as an undergrad were the ones taught with a
professor's class notes instead of a proper text. It's true that texts are
overly expensive, but the amount of work that goes into a good text isn't
trivial.

I'd recommend to anyone that if they don't like the text their class is using,
find another one and just photocopy the problem sets from the library's copy
if you need them. There's an excellent text available for almost every
subject, if you look for it.

~~~
Avshalom
>> "Some of the worst classes I had as an undergrad were the ones taught with
a professor's class notes instead of a proper text. It's true that texts are
overly expensive, but the amount of work that goes into a good text isn't
trivial."

For two reasons at least. One: the amount of effort that goes into a good text
and Two it means that every one taking the class from a different teacher is
either getting taught something different or being taught from some one else's
notes. Same with anytime a new teacher takes over the subject.

A couple years of this and suddlenly people are being taught with error ridden
cryptic notes from a teacher who retired years ago but the course material is
now so different than the text book that upper level classes relying on what
you learned from the teachers notes would need to be restructured so you can
change the low level course.

which is exactly what happened at my school, NMT, with the sophomore level
physics courses and it's been a 4 year head ache so far.

All of which to say is that the text book industry sucks, not necessarily the
text books themselves.

------
ig1
This post just seems tacky, complaining that because marketing textbooks don't
mention his own concept of "permission marketing" that they're out of date.

Also complaining that Stewart making 20 million for text book is unreasonable,
when he himself has made a substantial amount of money from writing
educational books. Not to mention the 30 million he got for his games site
Yoyodyne. Obviously that was completely reasonable.

~~~
anigbrowl
True, but not referencing Google? I think a marketing 101 text probably needs
to say something about the importance of having your website be discoverable
in an internet search, or at the very least review how the commoditization of
online advertising has led to a shift in the landscape.

~~~
ori_b
Or maybe the textbook could focus on the important theory that needs to be
covered, and leave keeping up to date with the newest fads up to the students
and the professor teaching the course?

The theory is what gives the textbooks value. It's the timeless and constantly
useful material that makes a textbook worth referring to decades later.

------
tokenadult
"A textbook author in Toronto made enough money from his calculus textbook to
afford a $20 million house."

I know that calculus textbook.

[http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Early-Transcendentals-
James-S...](http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Early-Transcendentals-James-
Stewart/dp/0495554650/)

It's workmanlike, but certainly not inspiring like Spivak's textbook.

<http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Michael-Spivak/dp/0914098918/>

------
johnnybgoode
The real problem here is that the textbook industry is being propped up by the
government, and I'm not just talking about copyright laws.

People are placed at a serious disadvantage if they don't go to a government-
approved university and get a degree. To do this, they have to take certain
classes. To take those classes, they have to buy certain textbooks.

If people could learn however they wanted without being at a legal
disadvantage, even if that just means attending a truly private university,
the textbook extortion scheme would be competed away. Why would you tolerate
$200 textbooks if you didn't have to get your hands on that legal credential,
which can only be offered by certain institutions?

------
waratuman
I love my textbooks, it will be sad to see them go if they do. I've always
preferred paper to pdf.

~~~
omouse
The reason you prefer paper over PDF is because PDF merely imitates paper.

~~~
sketerpot
I prefer hypertext over both of them, especially now that we all have tabbed
browsers. There's a reason why people will voluntarily spend hours learning
things from Wikipedia.

<http://xkcd.com/214/>

------
stavrianos
I've come across a handful of textbooks good enough to keep. It's rare,
though. First year university, made the mistake of buying all my texts- first
years, don't do this! Now, I ask around one year up, see if the books are
worth anything at all. If they are it's easy enough to borrow one from someone
else how bought it. At the end of the year, if it was actually exceptional,
I'll return the borrowed and buy my own copy.

------
lowe
combine these points with public high school budget cuts and it just gets
worse. i still remember how demotivating it was being handed a heavy chemistry
textbook from three decades ago on the first day of my junior year. the first
5 minutes alone flipping through those pages was probably what killed all
interest in science for 19/20 in that class...i mean the authors were out of
touch with teenagers even back in the 70s. so my biggest problem with
textbooks has been their age: that has been the most significant in making a
subject seem static and dead.

i've had CS and foreign language profs who used their own course notes updated
yearly, and i ended up relying on these more than any prescribed textbook. the
freshness made a big difference. the profs were also more invested in the
material because they either wrote it themselves, or at least took the time to
assemble. as such they were clued in to the contents and focused on them in
lecture. a batch of notes also has less perceived authority than a textbook,
which i think is a good thing, as it encourages questions and challenges.

~~~
zck
It always is nice when a professor takes the time to put together a course
packet, but sometimes it can be frustrating when you don't understand
something in class, and go to the course packet to find it explained the same
way.

~~~
sketerpot
Internet to the rescue! Steal somebody else's course packet and direct your
students to it. Maybe have a couple of course packets. Variety helps, and
students these days are (or should be) good at ignoring vast amounts of
irrelevant material.

------
FrankBlack
According to the notes from a hearing held in February 2008, the average cost
for textbooks in the State University of New York system (SUNY) is $900 per
year. If we are conservative and say that $300 of those $900 dollars are for
things that cannot be easily replaced (lab books, workbooks, CDs, unique
books, etc.) that still amounts to $2400 over the course of four years that
could be saved if the text books were made Open Source. For that price the
student could buy a laptop capable of everything they'd need over four years
at school (a Macbook with bumped up memory and Apple Care protection plan is
around $1200 after the student discount, Dell would likely be less for a
comparable configuration) and a Kindle and still have money left over for
beer. Link to SUNY Investigation:
[http://www.suny.edu/files/sunynewsfiles/txt/TextbooksTestimo...](http://www.suny.edu/files/sunynewsfiles/txt/TextbooksTestimony.txt)

------
froo
Seth is usually a bit hit and miss, some things he says are interesting,
other's are just not.

This post is the latter - yes it's a rant, but it's completely way off base.
If he doesn't like the current textbooks, like any good entrepreneur, he
should write his own.

This particular line I found hypocritical.

 _Professors should be spending their time devising pages or chapterettes or
even entire chapters on topics that matter to them, then publishing them for
free online._

In my window, that particular line is being rendered just above where the
adverts for his books are on the left.

Yes, people should give away their work for free... I mean, you're doing it,
aren't you Seth?

Hypocrite.

~~~
hexis
How much did you pay to read the blog post?

~~~
froo
_How much did you pay to read the blog post?_

Ok, well seeing as you're trying to be a smartass, let me answer you.

Using rough calculations... I use my internet for about 6 hours a day x 30
days a month so I get approximately 180 hours of internet usage a month or
10800 minutes.

Since that blog post took me about 2 minutes to read and I pay $170 a month
for my internet access (which includes telephone line rental), then I guess it
cost me about 2 cents to read that blog post.

So his 2 cents, cost me 2 cents.

Now we've gotten semantics out of the way, let me answer you properly.

Seth uses his blog as a marketing tool to both sell his books and to promote
his "Seth Godin" brand which helps him get his consulting and workshop gigs
too.

So yes, he might give away snippets of information on his blog, but make no
mistake, he doesn't do it free - he has other outcomes in mind.

~~~
GHFigs
_he doesn't do it free - he has other outcomes in mind_

How is this hypocritical, though? _Anybody_ publishing anything for free has
access to these benefits.

~~~
froo
_How is this hypocritical, though?_

It is hypocritical because on one hand, he's saying that those professors
should create content of the same scope that you would find in a text book and
put it online for free - meanwhile he's got adverts for his books just to the
left of that exact same statement.

Don't write text books, give away all your knowledge, but it doesn't apply to
his books?

If he gave his books away as ebooks and just worked on the assumption that his
income is coming from consulting/speaking then I wouldn't have a problem,
since he's not, he's a hypocrite.

~~~
GHFigs
_but it doesn't apply to his books?_

You just read that post on his blog, where he gives away his knowledge for
free every day. That he also sells books is irrelevant, because there is
nothing stopping professors from selling books too. You seem to have the idea
that the ideas of giving away and selling knowledge are mutually exclusive,
even when the thing you're complaining about is evidience that they are not.

~~~
froo
Did you even read the same post that I did?

He's complaining about text books...

He complains about the price and then later advocates that professors should
give away their content online for free instead of in textbooks. Yet he does
exactly the same thing, has content in his books that he charges for.

I'm not suggesting that the price for textbooks isn't outrageous, While doing
my double degree I felt like I was getting ripped off left and right, but the
fact is - saying "give away your content instead of writing a book" and not
doing it yourself makes you a hypocrite.

Sure, Seth blogs about his ideas, but generally they are collection of random
thoughts, not complete contextual subjects laid out in concise logical order
with examples... like a textbook.

I'll also note that his blog posts often allude to ideas that he covers in his
actual books (eg, the Guy #3 post talks about Tribes and guess what one of the
title of his books is called?). So my assertion that his blog is a marketing
channel for his paid-for content is correct.

~~~
GHFigs
_"give away your content instead of writing a book"_

You've used quotation marks, but what you've but between them is not a quote.
As I said before, giving away knowledge and selling knowledge are not mutually
exclusive. Unless you believe that textbooks are the only possible way to sell
knowledge, there is no way to read the post as suggesting that selling
knowledge instead of giving it away is verboten.

 _generally they are collection of random thoughts, not complete contextual
subjects laid out in concise logical order with examples... like a textbook._

First of all, they are not "random", they are the same thing he suggests
professors spend their time on and publish for free: "pages or chapterettes or
even entire chapters on topics that matter to them".

Secondly, nowhere doe he suggest giving away textbooks for free. You're
grossly distorting the text by implying that. That he describes _assigning_ a
textbook as "academic malpractice" strongly indicates that his position is
_not_ that textbooks should be freely available.

 _So my assertion that his blog is a marketing channel for his paid-for
content is correct._

How is that relevant? I never disagreed with that assertion. Nor would I,
because it is transparently obvious. Are you saying that selling books is
inherently hypocritical?

~~~
froo
_First of all, they are not "random", they are the same thing he suggests
professors spend their time on and publish for free: "pages or chapterettes or
even entire chapters on topics that matter to them"._

Umm, he writes

 _"They are incredibly impractical. Not just in terms of the lessons taught,
but in terms of being a reference book for years down the road....The solution
seems simple to me. Professors should be spending their time devising pages or
chapterettes or even entire chapters on topics that matter to them, then
publishing them for free online. (it's part of their job, remember?) When you
have a class to teach, assemble 100 of the best pieces, put them in a pdf or
on a kindle or a website (or even in a looseleaf notebook) and there, you're
done."_

That explicitly states, instead of writing a text book - professors should
publish their content for free, online.

 _Are you saying that selling books is inherently hypocritical?_

You've missed my argument...

I'm saying that arguing that he doesn't practise what he's preaching, which
makes him a hypocrite.

He plainly states (which I have quoted for you, verbatim since you can't seem
to see it) that text books are impractical and that instead of writing a text
book, those professors should put their content online for free.

You mentioned that there is nothing stopping professors publishing books,
which I agree - there is not, yet Seth is saying that they shouldn't publish,
instead give away their content online, for free as it's part of their job.

Yet, despite that, Seth is doing the complete opposite of what he's saying.
The vast majority of his content isn't free - it's in a book that you buy,
seminars that you attend or you can purchase his time in the form of
consulting.

The fact that he occasionally blogs snippets of information is irrelevant,
since you also agree that he uses the blog only as a marketing channel.

 _Are you saying that selling books is inherently hypocritical?_

No, I think you perhaps don't quite understand the meaning of the word
hypocrite. I'll paste a definition in for you.

 _Hypocrite - a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious
beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a
person whose actions belie stated beliefs._

There, by definition, a person who's actions belie states beliefs.

Seth believes that professors (who's job it is to impart knowledge) should
give their content away online for free instead of writing a book is a
hypocritical statement given part of his job is the imparting of knowledge. He
does not give away all of his content online, for free, instead, it can be
purchased in one of the many books he has for sale.

The fact that he's made this assertion that that content should be available
online for free, instead of being purchased in a book is especially humorous
when you see the adverts for his book just to the left of that exact same
statement.

~~~
froo
@yungchin - but teaching IS part of Seth's job, he gets paid to speak and to
do consulting, just because the job title is different, doesn't necessarily
mean aspects of the jobs are any different.

As for some textbooks being out of date, that is really a matter of context.
For example, textbooks on marketing or other such fields that move fast there
are definite advantages to having material that is up to date.

However, let's look at the flipside, textbooks on renaissance period art.
There really isn't much that hasn't already been written on the subject, so
there really is little point in having "up to date" materials when there are
probably many definitive works on the subject.

I agree that there's little point in paying inordinate amounts for out of date
text books that are assigned to you - but that being said, suggesting that
those same people who write these books should distribute the same materials
for free is also preposterous, given Seth himself doesn't do it.

If Seth gave away his books and focussed on making money from his
speaking/workshop/consulting gigs, sure - I wouldn't have batted an eyelid,
but the fact is he doesn't, so that part of his argument reeks of hypocrisy.

~~~
GHFigs
_just because the job title is different, doesn't necessarily mean aspects of
the jobs are any different._

Actually, I think you missed an essential point. In academia, publishing is
usually a job requirement and key part of career advancement. This is what
Seth means when he says it's part of their jobs. He is not saying it's part of
their job just because they teach, there are plenty of people who teach things
but are not required to publish.

 _distribute the same materials for free_

Seth is not saying this. He is emphatically not suggesting that texbooks
should be distributed for free. There is no "same materials" stated or
implied.

------
htsh
I just wanted to say that this price-gouging is most egregious in the legal
world, where the textbooks are full of case-law that is legally required to be
freely available. The prof's add their notes at the end of each case and then
sell the book for $200. They could simply give you a link to cases & a little
pamphlet with their notes.

What bothers me most about this whole setup is it makes a legal education even
more expensive than it already is for lower to mid-income students.

------
sqs
Why don't more young professors release free textbooks online as a way of
raising their profile in the field? Seems to me that should be a great way to
advance on the tenure track, but is it actually? Certainly it's not the same
as publishing original research, but it ought to at least help out in showing
an interest in pedagogy.

~~~
neilc
Publishing a full textbook would probably take too much time away from
focusing on research, which is the real currency you need to make your tenure
case on. Online publication of a cleaned-up course notes and the like would
probably make sense, though.

------
Raphael
Eliminate copyright laws and books should soon become available at about cost.

~~~
Raphael
Is this inaccurate?

~~~
htsh
Why would this be inaccurate? If there were no copyright laws, anyone could
print a popular textbook and hence the market would drive the price down to
just above the cost of printing it. What's unlikely is that we'll eliminate
copyright laws.

------
Confusion
The problem is the lack of an open market. Amazon has provided more
transparancy through reviews, but there still is no freedom of choice for the
consumers when a textbook is _assigned_. There is virtually no competition on
price possible.

Moreover, you can't just choose another textbook, as the topics that are
covered may differ slightly. Even in math, when you use another Calculus book,
there is a reasonable chance you miss out on some stuff, that just happens to
be on the exam.

I'm not sure Seth's solution will work and I would rather propose that
teachers should be clearer on what kind of problems the student should be able
to answer/solve, while keeping in mind that the student should be able to use
any in a range of at least six books to study the material.

~~~
JimmyL
The presence of "freedom of choice" for the consumer depends on how you look
at the industry. From a student's perspective, there is no real choice - you
use the textbook you're assigned. Some professors will offer a few
alternatives, but unless they're very diligent about always giving references
to each book (and I had a few professors who did this well), the students who
use the number-one book - the one the professor uses when he's lecturing and
doing examples - will generally have a better idea of the material and the
standard they'll be evaluated on.

From the professor's point of view (considering them as the consumer),
however, there's quite a free market. They can get free evaluation copies of
any textbook they want, and most schools give individual professors the choice
of what book they use for a given class. So the problem then becomes getting
professors to switch textbooks, which is tough. Most professors - especially
in things like science - will teach the same courses year-on, and will become
very comfortable with the material in a given book. They'll know what to skip,
what to supplement, and what to offer additional comments on.

------
hs
my junior+senior high school lent me old books so students didn't have to buy
new inferior books

we had to summarize the books because at the end of the year, they are
returned. the next year, we continued with our notes and loaned old books for
the level

and no, it's not a poverty-stricken school. in fact it's the best in the
nation (out of tens of thousands), producing dozens of ministers, governor,
entrepreneurs, artists, etc

bad textbooks must die, good classics must live

------
TweedHeads
There is a textbook maffia that will put some resistance. Specially those who
make a fortune every year with the same scam of changing a word or two in a
book and selling it (forcing it on students) as a new updated edition.

Resistance is futile.

------
Rod
Seth Godin is a 2nd class thinker. His shallowness and vagueness impress only
the gullible. When will people stop listening to him as if he were a god??

~~~
anigbrowl
I'm not a fan of Seth Godin either, and my first instinct was to comment that
'Godin linkbait must die'. But I do agree with his points, although as usual
the analysis is shallow.

Something that deserves more attention is the fact that the textbook industry
in the US runs like a cartel (as alluded to above, with professors _requiring_
a particular book for which they get free copies, and the proceeds from which
help to pay their salaries).

In Europe I preferred buying college textbooks to learn programming, because
they were cheaper and better value than the commercial offerings, without the
fancy graphic design covers and marketing outreach.

~~~
Rod
I am a grad student. I hate the textbook cartel as much as any other grad
student who needs to spend 5%-10% of his salary in expensive textbooks.
However, this whole "textbooks must die" is _linkbaitish_ and stupid. They
don't have to die. Don't shoot at the books, shoot at the cartels. In any
case, I read this post and learned zero. Godin is preaching to whom exactly?

Saying that textbooks must die reminds me of the Nazis burning the books they
considered _un-German_. Textbooks can be wonderful when they're really good,
and no Kindle or anything will kill the joy of reading a book in paper. Of
course, if one looks at marketing books, it's clear they're mostly junk and I
would not mind if they were replaced by e-books at all. However, the same does
not apply to math / physics books, which tend to require a lot of effort and
time to be written, plus the illustrations, etc. This hard work needs to be
paid for, and I am willing to pay for it just as long as it's more like $30
rather than the obscene $150.

