
North American versus European distribution systems (2011) - nabla9
https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/north-american-versus-european-distribution-systems
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the_mitsuhiko
I think from a practical perspective the biggest advantage of the European
system is that every household gets three phases. This is I guess likely the
reason you have many more gas stoves in the US than in Europe where you can
easily install a high power electric/induction stove instead.

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GordonS
> This is I guess likely the reason you have many more gas stoves in the US
> than in Europe

Is this true? Either way, gas stoves are _so_ much nicer to cook on than
electric hobs - electric ones take forever to heat up and cool down compared
to gas.

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consp
Pure resistive heated stoves yes, most inductive ones are actually quite fast
and nice to use.

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jwilliams
I was pretty against electric stoves, but just moved into a place with a
modern induction setup. Extremely impressed. It can boil water amazingly
quickly and the exact heat control is great. I do miss the ability to char
things, but not massively.

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saberdancer
Few other benefits of induction are easier cleanup (you can wipe it down) and
no long term "soot" accumulation around the stove.

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vonmoltke
> Few other benefits of induction are easier cleanup (you can wipe it down)

With the downside that the surface is more fragile and susceptible to
permanent damage, particularly if you have heavy cookware.

> no long term "soot" accumulation around the stove

I have lived extensively with propane, natural gas, and electric
ranges/cooktops. I have never seen a "soot" accumulation, or really any
difference in discoloration between any of those fuels.

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close04
> I have never seen a "soot" accumulation

You're just generalizing your individual experience and it's just plain wrong.
Very few people dismantle gas burners after every spill to properly clean
around and under the burner plate so eventually there will be a burnt layer of
soot. The uneven surface of a gas stove doesn't make cleaning too easy either.

A perfectly flat and smooth glass surface it's a lot easier to clean. It's a
matter of wiping it, especially on induction stoves that don't really heat up
that much. And in case of more serious neglect you can use a cooktop blade to
scrape this soot.

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GordonS
> You're just generalizing your individual experience and it's just plain
> wrong

That's unfair, and TBH a bit rude - they didn't generalise, they explictly
stated "I have never seen...".

Another data point here, from someone who's been cooking with gas for a looong
time, and who does regularly take the burners to piece and clean them well.

I've also never seen any soot accumulation. Maybe it varies and happens on
some models ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

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close04
> That's unfair, and TBH a bit rude

You are correct but I'm sure OP didn't mind and might even agree with me.
That's quite literally a quote from one of their comments responding to a
similar assertion.

> Maybe it varies and happens on some models

I think it's mostly because of people's cleaning habits. Since cleaning a gas
stove is a lot more involved it's likely that more people are putting it off
until the soot is there. Old stile electric stoves (with elevated burners, no
glass plate) are in a similar situation, albeit still easier to clean than gas
stoves. I assume that if you're cleaning it thoroughly after every spill (or
just don't spill) this wouldn't happen.

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alkonaut
Having 400V 3-phase is excellent for EV charging. Guessing any new garage
construction in europe makes sure to put in a 3-phase socket.

Lots of older houses like mine have their Tesla socket beind the stove and
only 230V in the garage unfortunately.

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Tharkun
I'm seeing some broad generalizations in this thread, and some downvotes in
disagreement. Please remember that Europe is a big place, and is not
necessarily homogeneous. There are large differences between countries, and
sometimes between smaller regions within countries. Just because A has 3-fase
power cookers, doesn't mean B does too, for example.

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adev_
When you say "European", please also say "excepted UK" who (like usual) does
things differently. E.g ring cabling.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring_in_the_Uni...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring_in_the_United_Kingdom)

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sametmax
Maybe the article is trying to stay relevant in a few months :)

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cameronbrown
Last time I checked UK will still on the European continent for the
foreseeable future ;)

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mcv
It's always been just off the continent. I think they'd sail away if they
hadn't been tethered to us by that tunnel.

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swebs
Japan is also an island, but you don't see anyone trying to make the claim
that it's not part of Asia. I wish people would stop conflating Europe and the
EU.

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mcv
From the UK, "the continent" refers very specifically to continental Europe,
which means Europe without the British islands.

While Japan is an island, I would not consider it part of continental Asia,
although that might be less of a common concept than continental Europe.

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korethr
This article seems to only cover the residential distribution system. I say
that, because it covers the single phase, center-tapped 240V
(120V-Neutral-120) that's conventional in North American residential circuits.
However, in commercial buildings, I've seldom seen single phase 240/120V
service from the utility. Rather, I've seen 3-phase 480/277V. If 208/120V is
to be used, there's usually another transformer on premise to step down the
voltages.

I wish the article covered how the secondaries for commercial distribution was
done as well, but at least its coverage of residential service is informative.

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punnerud
And Norway (+Albania?) mostly have a system totally different than rest of the
world called IT-system where there is no ground. This require two errors to be
present (on different wires) to give a problem. It’s the same systems as used
internal in hospitals.

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bognition
> For urban systems, the European system can take advantage of the ﬂexible
> secondary; for example, transformers can be sited more conveniently. For
> rural systems and areas where load is spread out, the North American primary
> system is more ﬂexible.

I’ve often wondered how many of the differences between Europe and The United
States are the result of population density.

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decasia
Consumer-facing question:

Does anyone know if the higher European voltage at the socket produces
statistically more severe or more frequent injuries among consumers? The 240v
plugs themselves are designed differently (wider spacing between prongs) which
I imagine is partly because they're supposed to safely handle higher voltages…

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iikoolpp
The UK plug causes far less injuries than any other plug due to its incredible
safety design.

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nabla9
Type F and E plugs in Europe have the same safety as the UK plug but they are
less bulky.

The reason why F and E have similar safety but don't require fuse as UK plugs
have is the use of ring circuits in the UK.

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Someone1234
F and E don't have switches on the wall, and don't have the same shutter-safe
design. They're likely closer than some even worse plugs, but the UK plug
(aside from bulk/cost) really is the safest plug in the world.

~~~
welterde
The sockets are however not recessed making them less safe than type E and F
as it now becomes possible touch the the live conductor if the insulation at
the base is damaged (or is completely absent for some cheaper cables).

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Someone1234
> now becomes possible touch the the live conductor if the insulation at the
> base is damaged

If the UK plug isn't pushed all the way in the contacts aren't live. So, nope.
The insulation is an extra safety measure on an already over-engineered plug.

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welterde
That's not actually true. The pins mate on the side and have quite a bit of
play when they make contact (otherwise the connection would be quite
unreliable and might even be a fire-hazard). The insulation is _not_ an extra
safety feature.

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kwhitefoot
Good to see, at the end of the article, that there are people thinking about
different voltages and more sophisticated systems for transforming voltages.
Now that so many devices are capable of running at quite low power it might be
worth using USB-C alongside the usual power outlets for more than just
computers.

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zzzcpan
Not really, just like it's not worth it having any power supply embedded into
a power outlet. It's also a bit dangerous, it can malfunction and burn your
place to the ground without triggering circuit breakers. Also USB-C power in
particular is pretty inefficient by design, as having say a 150 watt power
supply to efficiently deliver 5 watts of power is rather complex and expensive
to achieve.

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mikeash
What makes the risk of malfunction higher compared to a standard power supply
plugged into an outlet?

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tomatocracy
As sibling says, no cooling but also no easy way to disconnect the supply eg
if it gets hot or starts smoking or sparking.

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LIV2
From what I'm currently experiencing here (Sweden) three phases also allows
for interesting issues like partial power outages that take down only some of
your house... Never saw anything like this in Australia where it's probably
the US style

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dillonmckay
There was a sponsored ad below the article, ‘How to Make Electricity for
Free.’

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bantunes
I block ads, but that kind of "chum" is horrible - here's an article with some
info on it [https://www.theawl.com/2015/06/a-complete-taxonomy-of-
intern...](https://www.theawl.com/2015/06/a-complete-taxonomy-of-internet-
chum/)

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danielneri
"Reference" is a little conservative. A majority of this post is copied right
out of the Electric Power Distribution Handbook by T.A. Short.

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mariuolo
Does having a higher voltage make a substantial difference in the quantity of
copper used?

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ajuc
Twice the voltage - four times the power with same loses and same wire.

And resistance is inversely proportional to the area of the cross-section of
the wire.

So, if you want the same power - you can use 2 times less copper with 2 times
higher voltage.

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mariuolo
I understand that. Does it have a particular meaning on a large scale?

I mean, is infrastructure overall cheaper in that regard? Are wires less
likely to be stolen? Things of that sort.

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Glawen
For sure it is cheaper. On the scale of a house, it is not so much, i spent
maybe 300€ of wires alone for my house (mix of 1.5 and 2.5mm2).

But you need also to add the manpower cost. With 240V 16A (standard for a 5
plug circuit) breaker you can wire your house with 1.5mm2 wires. For 20A you
need 2.5mm2 wires, and for stove (32A) you need 4mm2.

By experience, I can tell you that wiring your house with 2.5mm2 is way harder
to manipulate (bending, taking turns etc...) than the flexible 1.5mm2, and you
need bigger enclosure in the walls. Your electrician will charge you higher
because of this.

Edit: section for copper, with aluminium you need a higher cross section

Edit 2: my god, in the US you need a wire awg12 (4mm2) for a 20A 120V plug, to
have a mere 2400W. This can be wired in europe with 1.5mm2 wires on 16A
breaker, and you have 3800W of useful power ! It must be a pain to be
electrician in the US

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_trampeltier
I think it is great to have everywhere a 3-phase system here in europe.

