
The Students Who Discovered Dieselgate - tomohawk
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/the-three-students-who-discovered-dieselgate-a-1173686.html
======
gpsx
I had a different reaction to this article than the other commenters so far. I
think it did a very respectful job of describing the incredible effort these
guys put in. I had no idea it wasn't just some guys in a lab turning on a
switch.

I also come from a different perspective on this article because I actually
grew up in Morgantown, WV, where my dad was a professor. Looking at WVU as the
middle of nowhere, along with some of the other mentioned comments, is pretty
reasonable. And the article seemed to have no bias about the quality of work
done be these students and their lab in general. If the right people read
these articles it would probably give these guys' career a big boost.

~~~
gm-conspiracy
I live in WV and work for a startup in Morgantown, and I disagree with you,
and agree with the other comments.

 _In the U.S., West Virginia is associated mainly with forests, the heroin
epidemic in its cities and its backwoods population, who refer to themselves
as hillbillies. West Virginia is definitely not associated with environmental
protection. "Rolling coal" is a popular hobby in these parts - it involves
removing the particulate filters from a diesel pickup truck, driving to the
nearest city, waiting until a Prius or a cyclist goes by, gunning the engine
and roaring off, leaving a cloud of foul-smelling exhaust in its wake. That's
what passes for humor in West Virginia._

Plenty offensive.

~~~
dvdhnt
As an outsider, those are exactly the things I associate with WV (I'm from
Texas). Additionally, there are plenty of similar things I associate with
Texas. While I dislike those qualities, that doesn't make them less true or
offensive. I suppose, those observations made about where I live could be seen
as the first definition of offensive, "causing someone to feel deeply hurt,
upset, or angry". However, that doesn't automatically qualify them as fitting
the second definition of offensive, "actively aggressive; attacking".

~~~
gm-conspiracy
Associating, agreeing, and promoting things that are simply not true, are
offensive. I am sure there are worse terms to describe your stereotypes.

I have yet to meet anyone refer to themselves as a "hillbilly" in WV.

Most people outside of WV I have met associate it with coal, or white-water
rafting, not forests.

"Rolling coal" \- I have never heard of that term, nor have I seen this
behavior. Nor would I agree that this "passes for humor".

Heroin is a problem, yes. However, that is not limited to WV.

~~~
syntheticnature
I wonder what prompts the differences in my experiences versus yours. I live
in a rural area near WV, and not only have I heard the term "rolling coal"
from multiple sources, I've seen it done a number of times (not necessarily in
cities). In fact, I tend to close my car's vents as a matter of course when I
see a truck that looks outfitted for it, as it can be a bit noxious no matter
what, and even when they aren't trying for the black cloud the exhaust is
worse than usual.

A few links referencing rolling coal and its origins:
[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/jmb4d8/nothing-wrong-
with...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/jmb4d8/nothing-wrong-with-rolling-
coal-711)
[http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/201...](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/07/rolling_coal_conservatives_who_show_their_annoyance_with_liberals_obama.html)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal)

I've met self-identified rednecks many times, but only one self-identified
hillbilly (lives in VA). I think the former term has more memetic potency at
the moment; hillbilly seems more outmoded (probably why they used it), and
even seems to conjure a more hippie aesthetic, somehow.

I'd agree on coal or white-water rafting as stereotypes over forests. WV does
have some nice parks and forests, though.

~~~
gm-conspiracy
So, I had read through the wikipedia references listed in the footnotes (prior
to your comment), and came across the Vice article, which if you read (not
you, specifically), says it is a minority of diesel vehicle owners (all over
the US).

Reviewing the other linked articles from Wikipedia (the majority of which were
from 2007), I could not find one referencing WV, but multiple other states.

Not to get into a Virginia versus West Virginia debate (Virginia != West
Virginia), are the "rolling coal" experiences of yours because you are driving
a Prius or bicycle?

I agree about the "redneck" term, but that is associated with any area, and
often embraced, "hillbilly" is considered derogatory to many folks I know.

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condescendence
The tone of this article seems to particularly demean the students in the
beginning; I understand it's supposed to bring them to light but holy shit:

>They all ended up in West Virginia, not exactly the America you dream of when
you come from Chennai or Bangalore. Probably not even when you come from Biel.

>Since then, their careers haven't really advanced in any significant way

>he looks less like an emissions specialist and more like a South Asian IT
expert

~~~
vikiomega9
> They all ended up in West Virginia, not exactly the America you dream of
> when you come from Chennai or Bangalore. Probably not even when you come
> from Biel.

I find these type of statements pretty racist. I mean what does it have to do
with the reporting? I'm not sure it adds to the dramatic narrative/buildup.
Having said that, I suppose for most people who move to the US, there is a
certain picture in mind of New York and LA among other things, so there's
that. But it sounds racist in the back of my head, not to mention the IT part.

~~~
usrusr
There is nothing strictly racist in those statements, nothing strictly racist
as in "humans of ancestry X are inherently inferior to humans of ancestry Y".
But as the reaction here clearly shows, the writing touches some trigger
patterns: the article seems to say things that in America, only a racist would
say. But these triggers are completely cultural and since this is a text from
Germany you should be very careful to make assumption based on cultural
"don'ts" from a different background. There is nothing in the article that
would qualify as racist according to german standards. Many statements that
scream "racist" to an American would seem perfectly all right even to a German
who hands teddy-bears to refugee children by day and hunts nazi hooligans by
night.

As a German, it is one of the most interesting things that I have ever learned
from reading hacker news: according to American standards, _all of Germany_
would be considered racist, even Baader/Meinhoff-worshipping leftists. The
same insight helps me immensely in accepting that all those things in America
that trigger German "this is terribly, terribly nationalist!" sensibilities
probably do not actually mean that the USA are gearing up to annex some
neighboring countries by force. Because that is what we think of when we see
flags over factory floors, hear the "USA! USA!" chant or someone raising from
their seat upon hearing their national anthem and maybe even -gasp!- put their
right hand higher than the waist line. Here in Germany, only a racist would do
that (because nationalism and racism are inseparable in countries that do not
share America's long tradition of immigration).

In short: our cultures are full of shortcut heuristics for the kind of
dangerous group-chauvinism we want to avoid. It's usually not a problem to
have them (I'm not here to rally against "PC crap"), but they absolutely don't
translate across borders.

~~~
vikiomega9
I certainly concede the cutural context, and wouldn't care much if the article
we're written in German and I were reading a translation, but I assume this
article is written for consumption by an English population, which means
barring regional difference in English there shouldn't be much ambiguity in
interpretation for that population.

Your anology doesn't quite line up. What you point out are specific actions of
people. You are now easily empowered to go ask that person why they stood up
to the national anthem or ask someone else. The line quoted here is an
impression of a German author of what an other culture percieves. This just
doesn't sound like good reporting. Is the author projecting third world
impressions or projecting what _anyone_ reaching America would feel about non
costal cities? The tone of the rest of the article suggests the latter, but
what really stood out was the added impression of someone from Switzerland.
Growing up in a culture with with tons of colonial baggage, I don't see why I
shouldn't feel offended.

~~~
germanier
The article was originally published in German in their print magazine about a
week before the linked translation.
[http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/dieselskandal-drei-us-
studente...](http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/dieselskandal-drei-us-studenten-
kamen-dem-vw-betrug-auf-die-spur-a-1172839.html) (paywalled)

------
wruza
>25 billion euros

Pretty much to buy anyone, any 25, any 250. It is interesting if Volkswagen
was ready to pay for the silence, or was it just unnoticed low-level decision
that allowed misbehaving vechicles to the market?

------
0898
The book 'Faster, Higher, Farther: The Inside Story of the Volkswagen Scandal'
is a good account into the cheating that went on at Volkswagen.

------
spark3k
This article is written badly. Especially the ending with regards to how real
world testing and lab testing revealed the dupe there is hardly any revealing
connection.

~~~
alexeldeib
Could you elaborate? The author says it was a software defeat based on
detecting simulation conditions. The students rigged up a portable tester
which did not trigger these conditions. An official saw a presentation on the
paper results and got involved in investigations, which demonstrated that the
results were accurate. Where's the missing connection?

~~~
gm-conspiracy
The last paragraph is not a conclusion.

It reads like there is additional content missing at the end.

It is nice for WVU and those students to receive recognition via the article,
but the article leaves much to be desired.

~~~
alexeldeib
Ah, yes I agree the writing style is a bit awkward especially at the end. I
think the story itself is pretty compelling. The style does (somewhat
awkwardly) parallel the story itself: these guys weren't looking to get VW
into trouble, they were fascinated by what they thought was a technical
solution to a hard problem.

