
What Ancient Romans Used Instead of Toilet Paper - dnetesn
http://nautil.us/blog/what-ancient-romans-used-instead-of-toilet-paper
======
firekvz
Funny story, as a Venezuelan and having toilet paper shortages I was forced to
go water and soap.

Never comming back, not even with all the toilet paper in the world

The feeling is shared with alot of friends (we joke about this as a way to
keep the good mood agains the crisis) but a lot of people have realized that
toilet paper is not the correct way plus a huge waste of money (we have to pay
around 0.5$ per roll nowdays)

Bidets are not a thing here but since alot of Venezuelans are on my same
position and also alot of venezuelans have migrated to Argentina, a country
where bidets are pretty common, I foresight it becoming a thing in the next
few years.

Invest in bidets!

~~~
Aeolun
Forgive my ignorance, but how does ‘water and soap’ work?

I can immediately see the application of a tersorium, but not water and soap.

~~~
firekvz
Just shower after you do your business, you can imagine the rest.

~~~
solipsism
And how do you get dry after showering at a friend's house?

~~~
Guereric
I imagine the underwear will absorb the excess water and evaporate it over
time.

------
nobodyandproud
Americans don't have a high ground here.

The first time I used a modern bidet was eye-opening.

It eliminates the funk. It's environmentally friendly. It's easier on the bum,
if you have hemmaroids (I don't, but this is the report from friends and
family that do suffer). And it just feels refreshing.

The toilet paper is only needed to sanity check cleanliness and dry out.

The American squeamishness over the bidet is irrational and overdue for a
change.

~~~
thatoneuser
OK I've seen the bidet crowd grow for years. Never used one but how does it
actually remove all the filth? If I got shit on my arm or something I wouldn't
be satisfied squirting some water on it - I'd scrub scrub scrub. I just can't
see how it does as good a job. Any input?

Also - how do you prevent the bidet from becoming a fecal squirtgun? It sits
inside the toilet no? Aren't you in effect washing off with everyone's shit
mixed in?

~~~
maktouch
If you had shit on your arm you'd just scrub it without water?

Filipino uses a system called tabo, or sometimes a hand hose bidet (I call it
the bum gun). If the pressure of bum gun is strong enough, well, it's like a
pressure gun. You shoot it at 45 degrees angle (cause 90 hurts lol).

If the pressure is not strong enough, then use it like tabo. Tabo is a water
scoop. You water your hand, you water your butt, then you soap both of them,
and wash it out. It's a shower but just for your butt.

This sounds a little bit weird and disgusting but it is the cleanest since
it's like a shower. Nothing beats a soap and scrub.

If there's tissues, take a tissue, pat down your butt so it's dry, put it in
the bin.

Hope that explains it!

~~~
thatoneuser
I also wouldn't just rinse it with water.

And what of the fecal aggregate?

------
chiph
Importantly, if you're a world traveler, is to know if the culture uses toilet
paper at all, and if they do, is it safe to flush or do you put it in a nearby
trash bin?

[https://wheredoiputthepaper.com/](https://wheredoiputthepaper.com/)

Memorable advice:

> Loving your work, not many people go to Myanmar (Burma), and if you happen
> to find a toilet (and these days they tend to be Western-style sitters
> rather than squatting over hole sorts), put the paper in the basket or bin
> provided. It's worth noting here, that if you're caught short on the road,
> it's best not to go too far off track to find a bush as there are an awful
> lot of landmines littered about.

~~~
cheerlessbog
A can for TP next to the toilet seems the default all over the developing
world, assuming TP is used. I guess the plumbing is fragile.

------
tasty_freeze
I have read the glowing endorsements of bidets on reddit and HN for a long
time. I've researched after-market bidets that would be suitable for my
bathroom. I've bookmarked a few that seem suitable and have good reviews.

But there is one thing which stops me. I'm not sure of the exact details. Even
in this thread, I don't know the brass tacks of using one. Do I turn on the
sprayer and that is that? Or do I mechanically rub my ass with my hand
during/after the anus gets wet? Then do I use toilet paper to dry? Just how
much of my ass is going to get wet? Then of course I need to use soap and
water to clean up my hands. But someone else below said they use soap and
water on their butt. Too much is left to the imagination.

Does anyone want to provide a detailed, step-by-step process of what I should
do once I install one?

~~~
igammarays
Yeah, if you just spray and pray you’re going to have a bad time.

The way I was taught as a Middle Eastern man was: first use toilet paper at
least three times to remove the majority of the material. Secondly, hold the
spray hose or the bottle in your right hand and point downwards towards your
perineum from the FRONT of your legs. Use your left hand to lift your junk and
have two fingers down there. Now pour water over your left hand towards the
perineum, and let the fingers carry the water and rub to clean out the ass
crack. Usually a single litre water bottle is enough to feel extremely clean
and refreshed. This method obviously works better if you’re squatting, but I
use it with western toilets too. The most common mistake people make is to try
and put their hands behind their back or pour the water from behind - makes a
mess and doesn’t clean right. The imagery of the cleaning motion is like a
woman fingering herself.

~~~
thatoneuser
...so you have to use your hands to clean shit out of your ass? This does not
sound like a good thing.

~~~
crankylinuxuser
They wash their hands. What's so gross about them going extra lengths to
cleanse themselves? Its not like they're going to then ignore their very
hands, considering for many, its a religious law to be clean.

It seems like bidet fear but 10x. For no good reason.

~~~
frosted-flakes
Have you ever got poop on your hands? That smell does not go away with just
soap and water.

~~~
CaptainMarvel
I think for millions of people around the world who get poop on their hands
daily, the smell does go away.

------
doc_gunthrop
There's a YouTube channel, called Invicta, that produces videos that cover how
ancient civilizations handled commonplace tasks; their "How They Did It"
series includes videos on things like how ancient Romans ran elections, paid
taxes, and went to the bathroom.

Not part of that playlist, but a beginning recommendation of mine is their
video "Everyday Moments in History - A Roman Soldier Prepares
Dinner"([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-l_EbXE3LU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-l_EbXE3LU)).

------
speakeron
> Speaking of which, it’s high time that we consider changing how we clean
> ourselves after we use the toilet. Tersorium, anyone?

Rather than the Tersorium (basically a shitty sponge), the answer is the bidet
or the bidet shower[1] which is common in the Middle East and Asia.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidet_shower](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidet_shower)

~~~
bangonkeyboard
Just two degrees of click separation to
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_stick](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_stick)

~~~
whenchamenia
That was way more enlightening than a wiki page on excement wands ought to be.
A gem hidden in the muck so to speak.

------
pkd
I'm still surprised how many people here get defensive when it gets pointed
out that toilet paper is not the best solution for cleaning up. Everybody
should try using a bidet sometime and see the difference for themselves.

~~~
blub
It's not the best, but it works pretty great in the end: one is reasonably
clean until one can properly clean themselves. It's available everywhere (not
just at home), easy to carry and easy to dispose of.

Wet wipes are a nice upgrade for those that can't stand the thought of TP,
although they're usually not that easy to dispose of when not at home.

~~~
beatgammit
And wet wipes are kind of expensive and wasteful. A bidet is just so much
simpler (jet of water cleans you, washable rag dries you).

Honestly, I don't get what the big deal is. People latch on to a solution that
still leaves something behind, when another solution is both cheaper and more
effective (and eliminates the occasional itching you get if you didn't do a
good job with TP). My only complaint is that there not common.

------
rayiner
When we moved from Bangladesh to the US in the late 1980s, there were a couple
of things that made us go “WTF?” One was the taste of chicken. In Bangladesh,
you go buy a scrawny live chicken from the market and butcher it. It took me
the better part of a year to be able to stomach American chicken, which tastes
like wet cardboard in comparison. The other “WTF” thing was toilet paper. In
Bangladesh, you rinse with water and soap after doing your business. The idea
of just dry wiping was...

(To this day, whenever I go to Japan and sit on a bidet, I can’t help but
think “ahh, civilization.”)

~~~
throwmex
As an Indian, I too had this WTF moment. It makes me wonder why paper is still
used in the western world. Makes one wonder if there is a TP lobby out there ?
We used to make jokes what if a TP user have diarrhea, how many trees will
that be ?

If a bird shits on your hand will you use paper or water to clean it ? Its
just that simple to comprehend. Just use water damn it. Cheap, hygienic, no
left overs and green too !

~~~
icebraining
> green

Well, increased water consumption has a lot of ecological problems as well.
Plus most of us westerners would probably balk at using cold water, so we'd
waste a lot of energy heating it up too.

~~~
pksadiq
> Well, increased water consumption has a lot of ecological problems as well.

Well, using paper costs more water than using water itself. Also, the
ecological problems of using paper is far worse than using water alone[0][1].

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_paper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_paper)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper#Environmental_con...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper#Environmental_considerations)

~~~
fulafel
Water has a really high heat capacity, meaning that it takes a lot of energy
to heat.

Intuitively, how much water do you think the toilet paper of one bathroom
visit would heat, if usef as fuel? (Answer: much less than what you would use
to replace TP)

~~~
lostapathy
How much energy is used to make TP and transport it to your local store?

~~~
fulafel
Sure, there's that. Otoh the water will alo have a big energy footprint before
heating in the avg municipal water service case. But these things don't really
change the order of magnitude energy difference that exists in the setup.

I got curious and did a napkin calculation.

A sheet of TP weights 1.5 grams and you might generously use 10 sheets per
visit. Assuming fuel properties of wood, that's 250 kJ of heat energy when
burned. That's enough to heat only 1.5 kg of 10C mains water to body
temperature.

~~~
lostapathy
There’s a lot of water and energy used turning trees into paper as well that
this neglects.

Also just thinking about how much energy is in the TP doesn’t account for
shipping it around at all.

I have no idea what the energy balance is, i just think this thread had vastly
oversimplified.

Even the water volume may or may not be an issue. If you live somewhere that
water is precious it’s a much different concern than if your location uses
surface water that just ends up back in the same river downstream after a trip
through your plumbing, for example.

------
asimpletune
Maybe it’s possible that the shared poop cleaner had some unknown health
benefits as well. Obviously we all understand the risks, but there are
potential upsides as well. I’m not familiar what they could be precisely, but
I know there’s a lot of ongoing research into stool transplants and other
poop-related remedies.

------
c3534l
I can't imagine living in a society before they invented the three seashells.

~~~
marci
All the unecessary swearing...

------
RandomInteger4
Not sure, but ...

Pro-Tip: If you come to the US, please throw poopy toilet paper in the toilet
and not the little trash can next to the toilet which is meant for women's
hygiene products.

~~~
whenchamenia
This is not true in all cases, if unsure, ask, or look for any helpful hints
(signs, presence of tp in garbage) Its really fine either way. Many places not
in large cities are on well and septic and perfer you not flush tp unless
absolutely needed. "If it didnt come out of your body, it does not belong in
sewage" is a better rule of thumb. Just because many americans harmfully use
their toilet as a trash can does not make it correct to do so.

~~~
debatem1
Note that OP was specifically referencing America. If there is anywhere in the
US where leaving toilet paper in the trash can is the cultural norm I haven't
been there, and I've lived with septic tanks for probably half my life.

------
microwavecamera
_Human urine is full of ammonia and other chemicals that are great natural
detergents. If you worked in a Roman laundromat, your job was to stomp on
clothes all day long—barefoot and ankle deep in colossal vats of human pee._

It gets worse, the ancient Romans also used urine as a mouthwash to whiten
their teeth.

~~~
ravar
wait, our urine doesn't contain ammonia, we convert nitrogen to urea as it is
far less toxic than ammonia.

~~~
spurgu
> Because urea in urine breaks down into ammonia, urine has been used for the
> cleaning properties of the ammonia therein. In pre-industrial times urine
> was used – in the form of lant or aged urine – as a cleaning fluid.[25]
> Urine was also used for whitening teeth in Ancient Rome.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine#Cleaning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine#Cleaning)

------
cdelsolar
The most annoying part about this article is that he never specified how they
cleaned his son’s butt.

~~~
cafebabbe
[Narrator voice] They didn't.

------
tres
_Today, toilet paper is ubiquitous in Western cultures; it’s a US$9.5 billion-
a-year industry in the United States. Americans, in their typical excess, use
more than 50 pounds per person per year! About 1.75 tons of raw fiber are
required to manufacture each ton of toilet paper. That doesn’t seem
sustainable, and frankly, I’m surprised that people haven’t protested more as
a result._

 _Given these numbers and the marketing efforts behind them, it’s hard to
argue that the use of toilet paper is somehow natural. On the contrary, toilet
paper is nothing more than a technology. So the next time you’re enjoying a
morning constitutional, think about the fact that defecation and urination are
more than biological functions; they are cultural activities that involve
artifacts and technologies that change through time._

My takeaways:

* Lots of opportunity in taking on the "dirty jobs" that don't get the glamor.

* Something so ubiquitous and integral to our daily lives is a relatively recent introduction... It's not "perfect," nor "finished;" thinking about this mainstay as a piece of technology that can be made better holds opportunity.

~~~
Retric
“One tree produces about 200 rolls (100 pounds (45 kg)).”
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper)

Now, how much land each tree needs, and how long it takes to grow is not
exactly easy to calculate. But, something like 2 * 200 trees per acre / 20
years for fast growth forest ~= 1/20 acre of forest per person for sustainable
production does not sound bad.

And that’s assuming you can’t use waste streams from some other processes like
sawmills.

------
SECProto
That article links at the bottom to the original source,
[https://www.sapiens.org/column/curiosities/ancient-roman-
bat...](https://www.sapiens.org/column/curiosities/ancient-roman-bathrooms/)

------
foxhop
I pee in a sealed orange juice jug. It takes me about 3-4 days to fill it, at
which point I take it with me during my morning garden walk about and pour it
on top of my compost pile.

The resource is too valuable to piss away.

------
mmwelt
Very similar article by the same author a year ago:
[https://www.sapiens.org/column/curiosities/ancient-roman-
bat...](https://www.sapiens.org/column/curiosities/ancient-roman-bathrooms/)

There was even a HN discussion about it:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16757044](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16757044)

------
vagab0nd
Just try a bidet, please. It's so worth it.

I had a "itchy butt" for the longest time. Tried many methods, saw many
doctors (not fun!). Found no real solution. Flushable wet wipes helped
somewhat, but didn't completely solve the problem and it would come back from
time to time. Plus I was seriously concerned about clogging.

Then tried a bidet for a week, and... years of pain (I mean, itchiness), gone,
just like that.

------
njharman
Great documentary I watched today that touched on this very subject "Toilet
the Unspoken History"

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZHm3vkavgM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZHm3vkavgM)

------
ramon
Here in Brazil is chuveirinho, we used to use the bidets but it just takes up
took much room and it looks ugly after usage. Inside the toilet the
chuveirinho works well then we use the paper to finish the cleanup.

------
fouc
I really like the water gun next to the toilet in Thai bathrooms. It's multi-
functional, not only can you use it as a bidet, but you can use it to wash
other things.

~~~
latchkey
It is called a 'bum gun'. =) So much better than paper!

------
nobrains
Toilet paper vs. water.

The decision is clear, at least in my opinion: Water.

Water, by far.

And from so many angles (hygeine, cost, ecology, availablity, ikkiness, etc.)

------
stoppergoo
seems like the sponge can spread disease.

------
spacedog11
an ancient Roman would often grab a tersorium (or, in my technical terms, a
“toilet brush for your butt”).

Picture:
[http://static.nautil.us/16038_96fb9b48825b741083d35b0137af1b...](http://static.nautil.us/16038_96fb9b48825b741083d35b0137af1be0.jpg)

------
MobileVet
I thought they used the 3 shells...

~~~
bangonkeyboard
One up, one down, and one to polish?

------
em-bee
"no business is complete until the paperwork is done" (author unknown)

------
xchip
TL;DR: An ancient Roman would often grab a tersorium.[...] A tersorium is an
ingenious little device made by attaching a natural sponge (from the
Mediterranean Sea, of course) to the end of a stick

------
adminu
I wonder why so many articles today have so many words but yet so little
content? This one has a mile-long introduction. The headlines question could
have been answered in rather few words. I feel a short answer had satisfied
me. To make it even more frustrating to me the article teases different but-
wiping techniques used today without telling me which ones. Thanks for that...

I said I wonder why, I guess that was a lie. It's about having marketable
content, "making the reader feel related to the situation", etc. It does
strike me as bad practice though, especially when it comes to actual news.
Sometimes I read an investigative piece and think to myself that it might be
over soon, after all what could the author possibly have left out at this
point, only to take a look at the scrollbar and realize I am at 50%. I wished
for a bit more brevity, not the brevity of leaving out facts for the short
clickbaity stuff but leaving out all the unnecessary filler material.

~~~
ubittibu
For real, I can’t stand this kind of longform. They take three simple facts
and write an article that is more a short essay. And when the write starts
with an accurate description of weather, place or person, “It was a foggy
winter day in …”, “we reached a hidden part of the shore”, “is a tall woman
with bright expressive eyes" you know you’ll be stuck in a fifteen minutes
reading without learning anything.

~~~
eevilspock
Not all writing is utilitarian.

People in tech, on average, prefer the utilitarian. They also, _as a whole_ ,
_on average_ , are considered to have below average social skills and below
average art skills. Their coincidence is not a coincidence.

> To make it even more frustrating to me the article teases different but-
> wiping techniques used today without telling me which ones. Thanks for
> that...

For an introduction to South Asian "toilet technology", both very accurate and
very humorous:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKkryfdtMNQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKkryfdtMNQ)

[EDIT: also quite humorous is how this is getting down-voted into the toilet.
Is it defensiveness? Angry denial?]

~~~
nyolfen
most people don't click on something titled "What Ancient Romans Used Instead
of Toilet Paper" to read an anecdote about a stranger's vacation to denver or
the history of toilet paper, hn audience aside

~~~
eevilspock
> most people

or, perhaps, most tech people. Not all tech people, of course, as is evident
from other comments on this page.

The article was on _Nautilus_ , not _The New York Times_ or _Scientific
America_ or _Linux Journal_.

