

Building 'From Holden', an apparel manufacturer, from the ground up - freerobby
http://blog.fromholden.com/post/35254471808/building-from-holden-an-apparel-manufacturer-from

======
callmeed
I'm really bullish on lean manufacturing and vertically integrated startups,
and I love that their using CA cotton (my family owns a ranch in the valley
that grows cotton) ...

but I'm really skeptical of these startups that say _"we're going to disrupt
[Luxury Designer Brand X] because we can make the same shirt and charge
less"_. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of these brands are riding on their
brand equity, _not_ the superior quality of their apparel.

It just seems like a bad way to position yourself, IMO.

~~~
jonnathanson
Quality seems to be making a comeback in the US, especially in menswear. We've
entered an age where trial is cheaper than ever, and many online sellers offer
nearly unconditional return guarantees.

The reason large luxury brands compete on image, and not necessarily on
quality, is because they can. They've taken years to get there. Many of them
are also public companies, so they're under intense pressure to expand profit
margins and tighten costs. If Ralph Lauren can make a shirt for $5 and sell it
for $50, and could make the same shirt for $2 and sell it for $50, they will
take the latter option. Likewise, if they can make it for $5 and sell it for
$100, they'll take that option. And if they can make it for $2 and sell it for
$100, even better. They're creating shareholder value by doing so, and doing
so at scale.

Conversely, startup clothing brands typically begin by addressing a specific
niche, and addressing that niche's dissatisfaction with the status quo. A
friend of mine runs an extremely successful tie company by following this
strategy. You might think: why ties? Who actually wears ties these days, and
does anyone actually care about their quality? Well, it turns out that, of the
set of all people who _do_ wear ties every day, some of the deepest-pocketed
and most frequent purchasers of ties care a great deal about quality. Luxury
brands have been pissing these people off by cutting corners on quality and
coasting on brand image. So...enter my friend's startup, addressing this small
but lucrative customer base. Bingo.

(Incidentally, Ralph Lauren himself started off selling neckties).

~~~
malandrew
A friend of mine from high school started Collared Greens (
<http://www.collaredgreens.com/> ) which already focuses on neckties made from
organic fibers. They aren't my style, but if you wear neckties, bow ties or
polo shirts, they have great colors and patterns.

~~~
wsul
Definitely agree, you should make an intro!

~~~
malandrew
Send me an email. Email is in profile.

------
SeoxyS
This is something I've been waiting for for a while. Quality American-made
basic clothes at reasonable prices is an incredibly compelling offering. I
usually shop from a mix of H&M for basic nondescript items (shirts, polos,
socks) and reasonably-priced premium brands for the rest (Calvin Klein,
Levi's, etc.).

Count me in for The Early Bird! :)

~~~
wsul
Thanks so much for the support! Make sure to stay in the loop and let us know
what things you'd like us to work on next!

~~~
jseliger
>Make sure to stay in the loop and let us know what things you'd like us to
work on next!

I just went to the original link to sign up for your e-mail list, but . . .
there was no signup box. You should really have one in the top right of every
post and every page. Wordpress.com does this automagically with a check button
(you can see an email signup page here: <http://jseliger.wordpress.com/>), and
it's a pretty easy to drive engagement, especially for people from HN.

~~~
wsul
Great point, adding it soon. We hope you'll follow us at
twitter.com/fromholden and facebook.com/fromholden for now.

(we have a really nasty contest launching next week that I think you'll like.)

~~~
jseliger
That's a good start, but I don't really use either Twitter or FB. It's
possible that I'm coming from a very minority position, but I've seen a bunch
of HN posts about how e-mail lists drive more engagement than any other form
of electronic contact.

------
dbul
The focus seems to be on pricing, and understandably so considering the nature
of people. The implied ethics behind the manufacturing is something I
appreciate: I've bought clothing from only countries with better than not
labor laws for the past several years. Recently, Burberry has retired their
UK-made products in favor of more dubious manufacturing locations; so I've
stopped buying Burberry.

I hope this becomes a mainstream designer brand. American Apparel had their
own target audience. But I just couldn't understand why no one was able to
develop aesthetically pleasing clothing made in the US on par with other
designers you may find in Saks.

~~~
tjic
> I've bought clothing from only countries with better than not labor laws for
> the past several years.

This has the effect of giving employees who already make, say, $100 / day more
options as to where to work, while refusing to give those who make $10/day (or
$1/day) workers oversees choices like this.

I find this effect to be stunningly at odds with most of the stated political
goals that usually correlate with this opinion.

If redistribution from the $100/day person to the $50/day person is good, why
is redistributing employment options from a $10/day person to a $100/day
person a good thing?

~~~
dbul
In theory, I absolutely agree; however, in reality I disagree unless you can
show some data that indicates money being spent this way is more ethical than
inhibition. Considering the competition for apparel, ample supply of workers,
and what actually goes on in factories, if I have the option I will buy from a
place that is more likely to uphold human rights.

If you would like a glimpse into my position and haven't already watched the
PBS documentary _China Blue_ , I recommend it.

~~~
wsul
I think there are opportunities for a company to do an incredible amount of
good in other countries as well, like we hope to do locally. But at our stage,
we don't have the leverage to vet or monitor contractors in a way we'd find
acceptable. We aspire someday to make our apparel available outside the United
States with manufacturing in the respective areas! We don't think transporting
inputs/outputs across the globe multiple times is fair to our environment.

------
nostromo
American Apparel had a real novelty value when they launched. Not only was it
made in the US, it was made in LA! It struck a chord with hip urban audiences.

So I'm left wondering how From Holden differentiates itself with AA. Pricing,
branding, location and fit seem roughly equivalent. Would love to hear from
the founders on this.

My gut says that it may have been better to stay in Boston and be (for all I
know) the only men's apparel company in Beantown; the East Coast AA.
Currently, in my below-average monkey brain, From Holden has been classified
as "that other LA clothes company."

~~~
wsul
Hey nostromo, I'm one of the founders, William.

We love a lot of what American Apparel has done. We've certainly taken a lot
of plays from their book.

That said, we think there are a lot of ways we can improve on the model:

1\. Price - we think $25 for a tee shirt and $50 for a hoodie is too
expensive; at scale we want to be lower on our basics. We won't be supporting
retail stores, so this is very feasible. AA can't come down anymore in price,
they've had a rough couple years as it is.

2\. Quality - we're confident we can make consistently higher quality
garments; more consistent in quality and fit, and better fabrics.

3\. Style - on items outside their basics, we're not big fans of AA's fit or
style. That is personal preference, of course.

4\. Focus - we're only focused on men and will keep a very small line. Instead
of millions of colors and styles, we're going to focus on delivering things
every guy should and can wear. We want to be a safe bet so dudes can trust us.

LA and NY are really the only two places you can live if you want to be down
the street from where your production happens. This is important if you are a
micromanfacturer and want that kind of control for quality.

~~~
malandrew
Make sure your shirts are able to get as many washes out of them as the AA
ones. I've owned a lot of different brands of shirts and one of the ways in
which AA has surpassed many other brands is in the number of washes you can
get out of a shirt before it looks and feels like it should be replaced. Many
cotton shirts end up with a very rough hand after only 5-10 washes. ELS cotton
also makes sure that the shirt resists pilling.

These days 95% of the time I can be found wearing the AA "Track Shirt" in
multiple colors because it's got great color fastness and maintains a smooth
hand. I'd say each of my shirts have 20+ washes and don't look much different
than the day I bought them.

~~~
MartinCron
I just recently realized that I've had a few AA shirts through multiple years
of heavy rotation, and they still look and feel like new. Whatever it is that
they're doing, it works.

------
wsul
Thank you everyone for the support! We're so stoked to be taking this step.
Please feel to drop us any questions any time!

~~~
aes256
I like the "straight from the factory" idea. That said, I have two issues with
this:

1\. Comparing prices with designer brands such as Lacoste, Ralph Lauren, and
Burberry is disingenuous. Consumers are paying for much more than the physical
product when they buy goods from those brands.

Your real competitors are companies like Hanes, Gildan, Fruit of the Loom,
perhaps even Uniqlo and American Apparel. All of these sell basic garments, of
reasonable quality, at mostly reasonable prices.

2\. There is no such thing as the "perfect" fit. Everyone has a different body
shape. In fact, this is one of the reasons retail clothes shopping continues
to thrive. People want to try things on, to check the fit, and assess the
quality before buying.

~~~
wsul
Great points.

1\. We think in the categories we compete -- polos, tee shirts, etc, we are
comparable (and strive to be better!) in quality and style to Lacoste, RL,
James Perse, etc. These companies use great inputs, and the biggest difference
in the actual design will be our lack of logo. We think that, in itself, makes
a statement, and we hope there are a lot of people like us who appreciate the
statement that it makes. We aspire to have higher quality and more consistent
style than Uniqlo and American Apparel.

Yes -- people are paying premiums to other brands, and some of it, for some
people is aspirational. We hope people will pay for quality, and if anything,
vote with their dollar for a company that reflects their value. We don't want
to charge a premium for that though. Our values will be present in the brand
by necessity, because we're going to be detailing all along the way of how
we're building our company.

2\. To us the biggest problems with fit are intra-brand consistency and intra-
style consistency. Many manufacturers have poor quality control and a single
shirt in the same size will come off with vastly different measurements. ex:
[http://reviews.urbanoutfitters.com/5309/15787476/bdg-v-
neck-...](http://reviews.urbanoutfitters.com/5309/15787476/bdg-v-neck-tee-
reviews/reviews.htm?reviewID=24255028) we'll never, ever have this happen.
Quality & consistency is of utmost importance to us.

We want you to find the size that works best for you (they all have an inch or
two leeway) and once you know it, you can order without worry. Even before
then, you can, because we offer free returns, paid postage both ways, but we
want the experience to be pleasant from day one. We're pioneering a bunch of
ways to make the experience as easy as possible including FitPaks, true-to-
measure sizes, questionnaires we've devised, accurate photos of real people,
and many, many other things -- but we're always open to ideas!

We hope you'll follow along and continue to give us candid feedback. We are
confident that our success will depend on the support and feedback from people
like you!

~~~
_stephan
This all sounds great! I hope you'll be able to offer fine-grained sizes (e.g.
something in between S and M) and fits (e.g. something in between normal and
slim-fit) and maybe even different colar widths and neckline sizes.

~~~
wsul
We have fine-grained sizes and fits (especially for the traditionally
overlooked audiences like the tall and lean, as well as those that lift
weights). We're a manufacturer that is member-driven though, if you have
thoughts, shoot them to us, we'd love to hear them!

------
garmentguru
TRADEMARK VIOLATION Holden limited is a car manufaturer. Are you sure you can
share their name and fame with no consequences ? They have a mens apparel line
which is merchandised quite close to your concept. Adding a "From" might not
be acceptable to Holden Ltd., and you might also be in violation of USPTO
rulings.

BUSINESS PLAN I have worked with Lauren and Oscar knit product from inception
to delivery. There are some serious holes in your business model, if you are
planning to sell a comparable product, made in USA, delivered by mail, at
$8.00.

Your management team has impressive credentials but very little hands on
knowledge of the apparel industry. Simply stated, The Devil Fears Prada.

1\. The minimum wage in CA is $8.00. The effect of the minimum wage kicks in
twice when costing your product, first at the stage of fabric manufacturing
(where it is built into the fabric price) and than at the cut and make process
of garment.

2\. Knit fabrics can be a nightmare at the finishing stage. If not finished
correctly you will get : a) Skewing in the garment (when garment is laid flat,
side seams move to the front or back). b) Shrinkage from 7% - 14% resulting in
pukering problems also. c) Color variations in bulk fabric lots. d) Color
fastness issues. e) Variation in feel after wash and hiking of garment (riding
up)

When working with factories in Asia, if fabrics fail testing protocol we issue
a "refinish fabric" and sure as hell they refinish. However, given the minimum
wage in USA and the price you intend to market your product, refinish will not
be an option, so you leave no margin for error. That is if you are aiming for
a fabric comparable to the brands you are trying to compete with.

3\. Unfortunately, vanity creates brands and brands have become smart enough
to offer basics at low prices. That is where they make their big dollars. Men
do like to sport the logos too, and will pay those few extra dollars for it.
Also, the money back guarantee on brands you are looking to compete agianst
make them attractive. Do you accept returns ?

Looking at the Timeline you have posted on KickStarter, your garment gets dyed
after construction. The finish will never be uniform in this case, certainly
not like the pics you have posted or a Lacoste product; in which case your
site should project an Abercombie and Fitch or Urban Outfitters image.

Also, since you are planning to sell by the piece, have you accounted for
postage ? Warehousing and projection of units are a dangerous territory too.
Many established companys have sunk with their inventory.

A garment comparable to Lacoste or Burberry, by mail at $8 for a T shirt, with
all components and construction made in USA, in the absense of a sweat shop is
not possible !! If you can manage it, hats off to you !!

Your basic idea is to supply a comparable product at a cheap price. However,
you are working with knit fabrics which when finished to meet standards you
are aspiring for cost muchos $$$$.

------
dustinupdyke
There is already a clothing manufacturer "Holden".

<http://www.holdenouterwear.com/>

I immediately assumed this post was related.

~~~
wsul
Holden is the town we grew up in, in Maine. This company appears to make only
snowboard gear. We hope people won't be too confused!

~~~
mthoms
They make casual wear as well. See
[http://www.holdenouterwear.com/store/mens/shop-by-
category/t...](http://www.holdenouterwear.com/store/mens/shop-by-
category/teeshirts.html?___sid=u)

Expect a Cease and Desist in 3....2....1....

~~~
hornbaker
Yep. Founders, to save yourself potential headaches in the future, do a USPTO
trademark search _before_ settling on a name:

Word Mark: HOLDEN

Goods and Services: IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: clothing, namely, jackets,
sweaters, sweatshirts, pants, t-shirts, shirts, vests and outerwear, namely,
snow pants, snow jackets, snow suits, insulated and thermal pants, jackets,
and shirts; headgear, namely, hats, caps. FIRST USE: 20020000. FIRST USE IN
COMMERCE: 20020000

------
jusben1369
Quick question. Why move to California? I think everyone knows it's one of the
most expensive states in the country. I sort of imagined you moving from CA to
somewhere much cheaper with access to more economical space/employees.

~~~
wsul
All our partners (dye houses, sewers, pattern makers, mills, etc.) are
in/around Los Angeles. I had to learn apparel manufacturing from the ground
up, and this isn't an industry where I could just read, Google, and make phone
calls. I've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours side-by-side with all our
partners making sure our process is as perfect as we can make it.

I moved from Boston -- LA is cheaper for me, but that is a pretty small part
of our overall costs. We're all tech guys and are used to living on ramen. :)

~~~
jusben1369
Ok. Thanks a lot for the explanation. Figured there was one.

------
antr
Of all products I only like the polo. The only way to buy one is by spending
$65 on an additional v-neck and crew neck - that to me is a flaw: wanting to
push/x-sell unwanted product doesn't work now a days.

~~~
wsul
antr, the first pledge level is for a single polo. Granted, it is a bit more
expensive than we'll sell via fromholden.com in the future, but we need to
cover initial costs; we hope the bring all prices down in the long run. That
said, if you'd like some other package put together, I'd be more than happy to
accomodate!

~~~
antr
Has it changed? Didn't see polo before on the $29 pledge. Thanks for pointing
it out!

------
TechNewb
I wonder what the final prices will be, because $30 for a polo is not a 90%
reduction in price. Having said that, I would not buy a polo for over 25
dollars, and would try and get a discounted american apparel polo, or even a
thrift store. Best of luck to him though, looks like he has almost already met
his goal on his kickstarer campaign.

~~~
wsul
If you can find a nice polo at a thrift store, go with that! We shop
thrift/vintage ourselves, and love re-use vs. new manufacturing.

We're going to strive to hit price points that the average American (US!) find
reasonable. As we build the company we'll have an increasing ability to do
this.

Our first run, however, just isn't feasible at the quality we are holding
ourselves to (plus Kickstarter and Amazon both take a cut).

I think we'll hit $25 for a polo quickly. We hope you'll follow the progress
and buy when you're comfortable!

~~~
charliepark
Really impressed by this answer. And really hoping you guys blow it out of the
park. (Congrats on hitting your goal so early.)

~~~
wsul
Thank you so much! So awesome to have so many people genuinely supportive of
what we're working on!

------
bbalfour
I've had the luxury of seeing the initial prototypes of at From Holden and was
impressed. I feel like a fool buying $100+ shirts from places like Rag & Bone,
but I do it because of the style + quality + fit. Looking forward to the first
official run of From Holden so I don't have to feel like a fool again :)

------
dhyasama
Hey William, I saw the name "From Holden" and knew right away this must be
someone from Holden, Maine. I'm from Brewer and just wanted to say congrats on
getting the ball rolling on your new venture. There aren't many people coming
out of Central Maine doing this type of thing. Hats off.

~~~
lukethomas
Woah, a fellow Central Mainer on HN. Unreal!

~~~
dhyasama
Hey Luke. Always good to see another Mainer here. What town are you from?

~~~
lukethomas
In Orono at the moment for school, from Orrington originally. Let's connect!

------
mmanfrin
This reminds me a lot of the Flint and Tinder kickstarter (locally sourced and
manufactured clothes).

I'd recommend you (they?) take a look at the issues that arose during F&T's
fulfillment.

~~~
MartinCron
I second that recommendation.

Flint and Tinder was the first thing I ever backed on kickstarter, and even
though there were some production issues, they managed to pull through with
some pretty darn nice underwear.

Experience was a big part of it, too. The package came with a beautiful map
illustrating where the fabric was grown, processed, and assembled. It also
came with some matches, which I don't have an immediate need for, but are cute
nonetheless.

------
shanecleveland
It's great to see the interest in made-in-the-USA physical products. I work
for a small family-owned US manufacturer. We make neoprene medical and
athletic devices, with a focus on custom, and we've been around for 30 years
with steady growth. We definitely serve a niche. As some have already pointed
out, that is likely where upstart US manufacturers will have success. I
believe there are markets for people doing one thing really well and building
a reputation in that space.

------
caycep
This is similar in concept to Everlane? I am not sure if they are
manufacturing domestically, but I think the idea is roughly similar (based on
their prior posts here on HN).

------
malandrew
2 issues:

(1) What about determining the right size? What if the size I ordered doesn't
fit? Are you prepared to to take back the wrong size and cover the shipping
costs for an exchange?

(2) What about more colors? One of the big advantages of AA is the color
selection. What kind of selection can we expect with From Holden?

~~~
wsul
1\. We guarantee absolute satisfaction. We also have a secret incentive that
we want you to find the perfect fit so you keep ordering and being happy with
us. We'll refund or exchange (and pay all shipping, regardless) for anything,
anytime. That said, we've developed what we're calling microsizes as well as
fits for other body types -- tall and lean vs. weightlifters, who have been
traditionally overlooked in the marketplace.

2\. We will expand the colors, and, in fact, will be using our members to help
guide us. So shoot us an email and let us know what you want! That said, we'll
definitely be more conservative than AA. A lot of the time more choice is not
a good thing -- AA has some colors that no guy should wear.

~~~
malandrew
The idea of microsizes is great. I often find it difficult to wear v-neck
t-shirts from Armani Exchange they are too short on my 6'5" frame.

As far as colors are concerned, a deep red, like the red in the basic armani
exchange v-necks is essential. Regarding the colors AA offers, I'm not sure I
totally agree. It's some of my off-the-beaten path shirts from AA that are
most likely to get me compliments.

------
acdanger
I wonder if the founders are aware of this other USA-based clothing
manufacturer that shares a very similar name:
<http://www.holdenouterwear.com/>

------
malandrew
Check out this Q/A on Quora [http://www.quora.com/What-are-the-best-designer-
t-shirts-for...](http://www.quora.com/What-are-the-best-designer-t-shirts-for-
men)

~~~
wsul
Great Q/A! We're big fans of James Perse and a bunch of the other brands
listed. Biggest complaint for JP is that nothing they make is athletic fit and
downsizing doesn't work well with length.

------
breckognize
If you decide to do footwear and need help with the sizing (or want to help
your customers switch from other brands into yours), we're happy to help!
(www.shoefitr.com)

~~~
wsul
We will definitely reach out! Thank you.

------
garmentguru
Hey William, Have you had the time to look into the possibility of Trademark
Violation ? Have you had your label registered with the USPTO.gov ?

------
saosebastiao
Really cool. As a fan of high quality classic fashion, and as a Supply Chain
professional, I have been waiting for this. I hope for the best.

~~~
wsul
Thank you! You should reach out, we're always looking for advice on making our
supply chain more efficient and would love to hear about your experience.

