
Delta to start scanning faces at airport check-in - wglb
https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/20/delta-to-start-scanning-faces-at-airport-check-in/
======
mosselman
More scary: They are just using the information that identifies you, that they
already have, and are tying it to your face in a 100% verified way. By which I
mean that they now have a database of people’s IDs along with what is most
certainly a scan of their face.

Now other companies will offer large amounts of money for this data because
they can identify you when you enter stores, walk by things, have your picture
online, etc.

This is different to let’s say Facebook because the scans are made at a booth
with professional scanning equipment, not some person’s crappy holiday picture
with too much backlight.

Also, there is no doubt about who is scanned while on social media you might
get on someone’s pictures and Facebook will ask “is this James?” Ehm maybe.
Not with delta though.

In a few years you will get extorted for this info bacausenif you don’t let
your face get scanned, you can’t fly. Complete distopia.

~~~
rosser
How do you imagine they aren't scanning your passport and driver's license
photos, which you _also_ need to fly/drive, and are also "100% verified" —
because they _are_ people's IDs — already _anyway_?

EDIT: Re: the "quality" of those photos: Because "they" _already_ have the
original image that was printed on your license or passport. Images really
don't need to be that big or high quality to identifiably determine your
facial features.

~~~
Pietertje
This is Delta which do not have a copy or scan of your passport - just your
textual info..., different to customs which do have this.

Also note that quality of Delta's photo booth will be much better than a copy
of your passport.

~~~
tjohns
This system was designed by CBP, not Delta. So yes, it has access to the
passport database. (See my other post here for details.)

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fzeroracer
Nice to know that we're just barreling ahead towards a cyberpunk future. I've
been meaning to get a mohawk anyways. Shame about neon lights dying off
though.

More seriously, the amount of security theater going on at airports is getting
out of hand. It's obvious that this is intended to start off optional,
gradually warm people up to the new norm and then ramp up the data collection.

~~~
closeparen
The airline isn't learning anything from this that it doesn't already know.
Flight reservations are decidedly not anonymous, and the TSA already checks
photo ID.

~~~
scottLobster
Yes, and I fully trust Delta to properly secure my facial recognition data
such that the odds of any malicious actor getting such data are negligible.
Large old "we are not a tech company" corporations and government agencies are
just amazing at that :P

~~~
WalterSear
Don't worry, I'm sure they outsourced it to a 'we are totally a tech company',
son-of-a-friend-of-a-guy-on-the-board's shiny new 'cyber' startup.

~~~
robk
Nah just Indian outsourcing

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tjohns
Title is slightly misleading. This is only for for international departures,
since it's tied to the passport + immigration databases. It's not for _all_
Delta flights, since domestic flights are excluded.

It's a CBP-operated system called Biometric Exit, and from what I've heard is
being rolled out at other airports, including Boston [1], San Jose [2], and
Orlando [3]. So it's not exclusive to Delta or ATL... though this might be the
largest deployment so far.

[1]: [https://www.airportfacescans.com/](https://www.airportfacescans.com/)

[2]: [https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/06/san-jose-airport-
show...](https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/06/san-jose-airport-shows-facial-
recognition-international-flights-google-apple/)

[3]: [https://www.futuretravelexperience.com/2018/08/five-
examples...](https://www.futuretravelexperience.com/2018/08/five-examples-of-
biometrics-in-action-at-us-airports/)

~~~
raverbashing
"Biometric exit"

As if in the past this wasn't done by handling back the I94/I94W to the
airline or done automatically through passport numbers in more recent times.

~~~
gergles
It is the law of the land since shortly after 9/11 that CBP is required to
have _biometric_ evidence that the person has exited the country. In some
airports, the I94 dropbox was literally just a dropbox in the secure area, and
there was nothing stopping you from leaving as many I94s as you wanted to
there, or even just dropping in yours and leaving.

The fact that CBP is just now bothering to comply with the law should be more
alarming.

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joewee
Just rode regional Air China flight, they were kind enough to announce at the
start of the flight “Please notice, we consider airplanes to be a public
space, and for security purposes we may record audio and video during the
flight.”

Interestingly enough, that same announcement wasn’t made on the China -> USA
leg of the flight. I don’t know about airplanes being a public space, but it’s
definitely private property and companies can and do record on their property
for all manner of reasons, marketing will be the primary driver I awesome.

What would audio analysis tell an airline about additional products / services
they could be selling customers that are currently untapped?

I for one tend to complain about my seat, mainly mumbling to myself, but if I
had a offer to move to any open seat for a $20 fee. I’d take it in heart beat.

~~~
throwawaycanada
>if I had a offer to move to any open seat for a $20 fee. I’d take it in heart
beat.

That's free. Just move once the plane is in the air. You are free to do so on
any plane I've ever been on.

~~~
raverbashing
As long as it's in the same class as you bought and not a "premium seat"

But yes, it's usually not a problem

~~~
chii
it's a problem if it affects another passenger (such as moving to an aisle
seat that blocked the "free" access to the aisle from a window seat).

Otherwise, of course there's no issue.

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holografix
I can’t remember where I saw this burn apparently there is a group of people
in the US who called themselves Juggalos or something similar and they where
clown make up as they go about their businesses.

It’s common for them to paint their chins black and this affects the ML which
assesses your facial proportions throwing it off the scent.

I wonder if it’d be possible to design makeup that’s subtle enough to fool the
naked eye but that would alter your facial structure when viewed by a camera?
Maybe some type of reflexive make up that might make your irises look much
further apart?

~~~
mpalmer
Yep:

[https://cvdazzle.com/](https://cvdazzle.com/)

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jMyles
I'm wanting to express a slightly different view from most of the other
comments:

My face is not a secret. The photons that bounce off my face in all forward
directions are not my property. _Anybody_ is welcome to capture these photons
if they come into that person's possession, whether it's a camera on the
street of a facial recognition system in an airport.

I'm very concerned about security and expression in our world, but I think we
need to notice which things are _naturally_ public (such as the likeness of
our face) and which aren't.

~~~
walterbell
Are photo databases naturally public, e.g. can anyone create a photo database
and _publish_ it like wikipedia? How about storing for private use against a
public facial recognition cloud service? Do citizens have a right to be
forgotten in such a database? Do different countries legal systems, precedent
case law and constitutions have the same answers to these questions?

~~~
rosser
> _e.g. can anyone create a photo database and publish it like wikipedia?_

I believe there's a site somewhere on the internet that was originally
premised on being "a book of faces"...

~~~
walterbell
They usually depend on users to upload photos.

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anoplus
Some people don't realize what terrible things are done "in the name of
security". I learned about a couple of environmental projects in my country
that caused fatal pollution for residents, + ones in the making. And what is
the number one official excuse to build them all in such sensitive areas? For
security reasons.

Many people blinded by "security". Should be aware of this phenomenon.

~~~
chii
> Many people blinded by "security"

it's because the authorities prey on fear. It stops people from thinking
rationally.

Security is always a trade off, but what is getting traded off for having some
security is never clearly laid out.

------
icelancer
This is extremely common in Australia already. It is required when you check
in through customs. I assume they'll use similar vendors.

~~~
walterbell
Do Australians have the same laws and rights as Americans?

~~~
AmericanChopper
No country in the world has the same level of rights as America.

~~~
fiblye
Not even remotely true. America is ahead of some countries in some aspects and
behind in several others.

~~~
kaybe
You're not saying a different thing here.. even though the parent comment can
be read to _imply_ that America has the highest level, they didn't explicitly
say so.. </nitpick>

~~~
AmericanChopper
Sorry, correction: The USA guarantees its citizens more rights and to a higher
standard than any other country on earth.

~~~
fiblye
My original reply to you is just as relevant. This isn't true.

~~~
AmericanChopper
It absolutely is true. The US has the strongest free speech and freedom of
association laws in the world. There is no country in the world that has
anything that even comes close to the protection offered by the Bill of
Rights. The copyright law Europe passed last week would require a
constitutional amendment to be legal in the US.

~~~
hef19898
That is a very American comment. I, as a European, really have to disagree
completely. I have yet to see any cases in which anywhere in Europe free
speech is limited. Or association, in fact there is party litterally called
The Party that got elected last time around into the European Parliament. That
party is an off-shoot of a German satirical magazine. And the last time a
political party was prohibited in Germany was the communist party in the 50s.

~~~
sneak
Racist speech that is legal in America is prohibited in Germany.

Additionally, many video games have had to release versions with reduced blood
and gore in Germany, due to laws prohibiting the uncensored original versions.

[http://www.dorkly.com/post/80945/germany-
censorship](http://www.dorkly.com/post/80945/germany-censorship)

There are lots of examples of the German government restricting free
expression.

~~~
hef19898
Holocaust denial is probibited for, rather obvious, historical reasons. Same
for Austria by the way, for agin the same reasons.

Freedom of speech and art was, indeed, circumvented for games in Germany, but
not Austria.

And whether it is such a great thing to allow racist speech without
consequences is everybody's guess.

~~~
sneak
> _I have yet to see any cases in which anywhere in Europe free speech is
> limited_

I gave you several cases. Now you have.

------
walterbell
How does the technology, false negative and false positive rare compare to
Apple Face ID? How quickly will the system hardware, firmware and software be
upgraded in response to vulnerability testing and reports? Will there be
security bounties and legal shields for white hats who can perform security
tests?

------
salawat
Maybe I've been asleep for the past few decades, but when did it become vogue
to implement corporate Stasi-like surveillance infrastructure?

I keep seeing the sentiment pop-up that as long as it isn't the government
building the dossier directly, everything is a-ok.

 _Regardless of the fact that most nations have begun ignoring any claim of
privacy being at stake by mere virtue of doing business with someone else._

The lack of follow-thru on the sentiment, and the danger it poses to far more
fundamental societal building blocks (good treatment of guests and strangers,
trust, forgiveness, willingness to live and let live on an individual basis).

Seems like someone's driving out on some pretty thin ice with one heavily
laden forklift.

Nevermind the behavior grossly violating classic human social norms. If I went
to someone's door, and started rifling through their house and person to build
up a dossier on them, before even bothering to say "hello", I'd likely be shot
(not that I would blame them). Same thing if I made the presumption I could do
it in a public space for my own self-enrichment (again, would not blame them).

I'm a bit of a stickler for privacy in that regard. If you want info for your
own edification, that's fine. If you start sharing it without my informed
consent, free of such compulsions as "every actor in this sphere is doing it",
I've got issues with that. Especially if a State actor is one of the
beneficiaries, directly or indirectly. It's a really bad door to open that I'd
prefer stayed where it belongs. In the history books.

------
avinashsonee
Hyderabad (India) Airport is also going to start this soon:
[https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyderabad/rgia-to-go-
fo...](https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyderabad/rgia-to-go-for-
biometrics-do-away-with-check-in/article19927362.ece)

------
moonka
>Delta said that travelers who don’t want their faces will be given several
opportunities to opt-out, Delta spokesperson Kathryn Steele told TechCrunch,
and can continue to “proceed normally” through security.

>CBP spokesperson Jennifer Gabris said that only US citizens can opt out, and
will have their documents checked manually.

>Homeland Security, which oversees border security, struck a different tone
when last year it said that anyone who wanted to opt out of having their faces
scanned should “refrain from traveling.”

Found the different responses interesting.

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expathacker
To one-up themselves, perhaps Delta could also scan faces immediately upon
arrival, with a focus on sentiment analysis to get an idea as to how satisfied
their customers are at the end of the trip?

~~~
newsbinator
Then you're dealing with the Heisenberg uncertainty principle of sentiment
analysis in face-scanning: person may have been pretty happy, until they
noticed you face-scanning the people ahead in line.

~~~
sand500
s/Heisenberg uncertainty principle/observer effect/

~~~
newsbinator
Appreciate the correction!

Always glad for an assist from a Heisenberg compensator.

------
savrajsingh
Aside from the privacy concerns, what happens when it doesn’t work — when it
doesn’t identify my face due to problems in the sw or my face is too similar
to someone else. What happens?

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coin
> CBP spokesperson Jennifer Gabris said that only US citizens can opt out, and
> will have their documents checked manually.

Why do I need my documents check to _leave_ the country?

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makkesk8
They do this in Copenhagen airport already, it's pretty scary.

~~~
jobigoud
I've been through face scanning for several years in CDG, AMS and LAX, during
the immigration check. Not sure what's new.

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torgian
Damn. They don’t do this in China unless you are leaving/entering the country.
At that point they take your photo and fingerprints.

If America is starting to do this, then for sure China will at some point.

~~~
jarboot
They've just (last year or so) started doing this for chinese citizens when
boarding trains. They place their ID card and ticket on a scanner thing and
look into the camera to let them into the terminal. When you check into a
hotel, get a visa within china, or make some larger purchases like residential
internet, they also take your picture. I've also seen it being used for
smaller payments (ie at institution canteens or through alipay at KFC), but
that's still not too widespread or mandatory.

As another posted noted they're also running facial recognition on security
cameras for "public safety" and there's some propaganda about them finding a
wanted criminal in the crowd at a concert and arresting him there using this
tech. But I think a lot of the time there's too much bureaucracy to get this
system to run efficiently unless the scope is within a certain, limited area
(like Xinjiang) or a major crime was committed.

~~~
kaybe
That.. is horrible.

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sidcool
What are the use cases of such feature?

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Tongueincheek
So when are they selling our information to the highest bidder?

