
Mercedes-Benz will electrify its entire car lineup by 2022 - prostoalex
https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/11/mercedes-benz-will-electrify-its-entire-car-lineup-by-2022/?ncid=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Techcrunch+%28TechCrunch%29
======
tinbad
Actually there's nothing new here, many manufacturers are moving to the 48
volt system[1], which you can classify as a mild hybrid system of some sort.
Many flagship cars already have it or will come out with it soon (new Audi
A8).

In my opinion, calling your whole line up of cars "electrified" is a bit
misleading. But I guess that's just how PR/marketing works.

[1] [https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/247889-cars-
moving-48-vo...](https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/247889-cars-
moving-48-volt-electrical-systems)

~~~
ProfessorLayton
It should be noted that a not-insignificant amount of a vehicle's emissions
come from idling. Simply reducing the time a car idles can reduce its
emissions by 9%[1].

[1] [http://www.urbanemissions.info/wp-
content/uploads/docs/SIM-1...](http://www.urbanemissions.info/wp-
content/uploads/docs/SIM-18-2009.pdf)

~~~
jacobush
Yes, but I find I disable it in my car every so often, so as to not loose air
conditioning. Even on not especially warm days, the more humid air when the AC
is off, feels uncomfortable.

~~~
LeifCarrotson
This is one of the reasons why a more thoroughly electrified car, which uses a
compressor driven by an electric motor rather than by a pulley off a
serpentine belt, will be more efficient. Baby steps!

~~~
jacobush
Indeed. In fact, I have not kept up very well with how cars are constructed
and I was surprised to learn that there is a pulley in my car. (Volvo V60
2016.) I had assumed it would be a small electric motor powering the
compressor.

------
samcheng
This is the company that pioneered the automotive gasoline engine.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottlieb_Daimler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottlieb_Daimler)

It's pretty clear (once you drive an EV) that a sea change is coming - they
have reached the point where they are a superior driving experience most of
the time.

As other evidence, Tesla announced today that they are planning a major
expansion of their supercharging network.

[https://www.tesla.com/supercharger](https://www.tesla.com/supercharger)

I wonder if we'll be talking about Tesla in a hundred years the same way we
talk about Mercedes today?

~~~
wil421
What has Telsa done that is completely novel? Telsa looks just like another
car company. You mentioned Daimler pioneering the ICE but where are the Telsa
inventions?

I think Telsa's greatest contribution will be moving the electric car and
renewable markets. Whether or not the company itself will be successful is yet
to be seen. To me they only make products that are affordable by the rich but
they've certainly been successful in moving markets.

~~~
kjksf
They made the first fully electric sports car (Roadster).

They made the first fully electric luxury car (Tesla S).

They created the first super-charger network. It's still the largest network
of its kind.

They are the first car company to also be a large-scale battery manufacturer.

They are the first car company that pre-sold half a million cars.

They are on track to deliver fully electric mass market (as defined by volume)
car. Tesla 3 is expected to reach production/sales of 0.5 - 1 million a year,
easily surpassing any single competing, fully electric car.

Yes, Tesla is a car company but they already did plenty to deserve a little
more than "just another".

~~~
wil421
Your statements read like a Tesla marketing pamphlet.

In 1900 28% of the cars produced in the US were electric. Albeit only a little
more than 4,000 were produced. In those days all cars were luxury items, a
horse was non-luxury. They also held the land speed records vs ICE prior to
1900.

Didn't Telsa partner with Panasonic to build the battery factory? Panasonic
has been making batteries for years.

They've only built 200k cars total! Probably more since March.

On track to deliver...let's see if they can meet their target.

[http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/electric-car-
timeline.html](http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/electric-car-timeline.html)

~~~
drcross
>Your statements read like a Telsa marketing pamphlet.

You asked a question and they directly answered it for you.

You probably also have a similar opinion of Apple then because they were not
the first company in the world selling an MP3 player?

~~~
wil421
Apple has proved itself over the past 3 decades with everything from PCs, MP3
players, and now phones.

I could afford the later 2 devices on a sub 20k a year college restaurant jobs
salary. At the time I bought both of them.

Telsa is not affordable by the majority of people with their currently
available models. While a Nissan Leaf is pretty affordable especially adding
in the tax break the government and my state used to offer.

~~~
majewsky
> I could afford the later 2 devices on a sub 20k a year college restaurant
> jobs salary.

> Tesla is not affordable by the majority of people with their currently
> available models.

By that standard, the company who invented fidget spinners made a bigger
contribution to society than Tesla because more people can afford their
products.

~~~
wil421
I'm not the one claiming Tesla or fidget spinners are revolutionary devices.

~~~
jl6
Fidget spinners are literally revolutionary...

------
odammit
This would be great. I have a 2014 Volt and I love-ish it. I live close enough
to the office that and can charge in both locations so I've gotten up to
5000MPG. I'd like to buy a more luxury electric car but refuse to drive that
weird blue embossed BMW.

nb4 Wut about Tesla? I ain't made of money, son.

~~~
josefresco
You can't afford a Tesla, but can afford a Mercedes Benz and considered a BMW?
- huh.

~~~
robterrell
MB B250e lease is around $400/mo. BMW i3 lease is under $300 right now. Tesla
lease starts at $1,000.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Knock about $200 a month off the Tesla lease for TCO based on Delta between
electricity cost in petroleum fuel cost.

Edit: i'm wrong. See below.

Edit 2: In quite a few places, you can get time of day metering, where you pay
lower rates for electricity at night.

In Chicago, I pay $0.01/kwh between midnight and 5am; its essentially free to
charge my Model S (it's slightly more at my place in Tampa, ~$0.06/kwh at all
hours).

~~~
fps
The national average cost for gas is $2.67/gallon, Electricity $0.12/kwh.
Based entirely on fuel costs, the Model S 85 costs $0.04/mile and the 20 mpg
BMW M4 costs $0.13/mile. In order to save $200/month on fuel with the tesla,
you'd have to drive 2200 miles a month. In the area I live, where gas is
cheaper than average and electricity is almost twice as expensive, that number
is 5000 miles/month.

~~~
adventured
That gas price should be closer to $3.16 at the moment. If we're talking about
the luxury car market, it's far more likely the vehicle is going to be
consuming premium gasoline.

------
csours
To be clear, just like the previous Volvo and Lincoln announcements, some
version of each line of car will be available with a hybrid or all-electric
propulsion system.

~~~
bryanlarsen
Is this announcement a total cop-out like Volvo's was?

Volvo's announcement was that all cars would be electric or hybrid, but their
definition of hybrid is very broad. It includes a "mild hybrid" system which
can never run on pure battery. It's pretty cool, but more like a fuel
efficiency improvement than it's like a Prius.

~~~
mixedbit
No, unlike Volvo, Mercedes is still going to have combustion engine only
versions.

~~~
YSFEJ4SWJUVU6
Which wouldn't come as a surprise on any other community that wasn't as
obsessed with Tesla as HN is.

Mercedes (or other German manufacturers) aren't doing this lip service because
of Tesla (not everything revolves around them) but because of the situation in
Germany. It's a broader topic, but in short the big manufacturers are working
together with the government, and making some concessions in exchange for no
diesel bans of any kind.

~~~
majewsky
> making some concessions in exchange for no diesel bans of any kind.

It's more complicated than that. Diesel bans (when they come) will be declared
by courts, not by politicians or officers in the executive branch. The purpose
of said concessions is to calm German customers.

------
S_A_P
So this headline obviously has broad room for interpretation. It is simply not
feasible to dump the ICE in 5 years across the lineup. I would guess that a
sizable percentage would be mild hybrid, which is kind of the only way to hit
some of the forthcoming emissions/MPG/Km/L targets while maintaining the type
of "performance" that ICE have given in recent years. Im not sure how I feel
about it, as it really just means that cars are going to get a lot more
difficult to fix and possibly end up in the junkyard sooner. If battery tech
improves enough to allow for a near "refuel" experience, that is the sea
change. I am all for this, but if this never comes, the switch to electric
cars will likely either be forced by legislation or end up a 30-50 year
process.

~~~
volkl48
It'll be a 30-50 year process. I don't even think that's a question. Look at
the phase-out of leaded gasoline, it wasn't fully banned from sale for on-road
vehicles in the US until 1996. The phase-out began in 1976.

And that was a lot more clear-cut "this is terrible!" to the average person.

\-------------------------------

Personally, I expect most countries will never fully ban or need to ban ICE-
powered vehicles, just as we don't ban you from driving a Model T or horse &
buggy around today.

New sales will be required to meet strict efficiency and safety standards and
once electric becomes a cheaper option (perhaps with taxes/subsidies to hurry
that), new ICE-powered vehicles will become a specialized niche rather than
mainstream. They'll probably retain various niches for a long time, but
that'll be a tiny fraction compared with current use.

Already on the road average ICE-powered vehicles will rapidly taper off in
demand as they cycle into wearing out and winding up in the junkyard.

------
anu7df
By 2022 all Mercedes-Benz car lines will have electric or hybrid options
available. Now that is not very catchy. The article itself does not do any
better, seeming to suggest the demise of ice by 2022 while the actual
announcement only promises hybrid versions or electric versions ALSO for all
car lines. So.. ICE only cars will be available, hybrid will be available and
electric too. I am speculating that as usual gas price is going to determine
how many of each they will sell.

~~~
phkahler
>> I am speculating that as usual gas price is going to determine how many of
each they will sell.

That seems like a perfectly reasonable plan to me. If everyone went all-
electric, the price of gas would fall through the floor making high demand for
gas powered cars. Make them all available in various forms and let the market
decide what it wants.

------
567arlo
Once consumers become aware of the true differences between ICE vehicles and
EVs, most auto manufacturers will need to do this, as the simple economics of
owning an EV is so superior to an ICE vehicle, all else being equal. It
remains to be seen however if the established manufacturers can match Tesla's
lead in supply chain and battery production capacity relevant to EV
manufacture.

~~~
alkonaut
This is mostly about hybrids though (near term), and it's not obvious that a
hybrid at $50k or an Ev at $60k is more evonomical than the ICE at $40k (say).

So long as the premiums are very steep it's still a hard sale so tax breaks
are absolutely necessary. There is a one time credit of $9k here now for EV's
and the yearly tax is almost zero (compared to upwards of $1k/yr for ICE) but
I still can't get the math to quite add up. The game changer will be more mass
produced modestly priced models. Right now it's often sold as a luxury with
added performance. Look at Volvos T8 drivetrain - it's pure luxury. No one
will buy it for economy.

------
mverwijs
Oddly enough, I read that they killed their only electric car only this July:
[https://electrek.co/2017/07/31/mercedes-kills-electric-b-
cla...](https://electrek.co/2017/07/31/mercedes-kills-electric-b-class/)

------
snowmaker
Does this mean that they will offer electric versions of each model of their
cars, or that they will not sell any gas powered cars at all?

~~~
adrianN
This means that every car will have an (additional) electric motor.

~~~
YSFEJ4SWJUVU6
This means that you can have any model with an electric or a hybrid
powertrain. If it helps you to grasp it, consider the current situation: you
can have most of their cars with a a petrol engine (several variants), or a
diesel (several variants) – in the future that list will include either hybrid
or EV versions, or both, for all models.

------
digibat
Why are companies not announcing auto-pilot? I think the most attractive
feature of Tesla is auto-pilot (more than it being EV).

~~~
foepys
Mercedes and BMW had autopilot-like features for longer than Tesla. They just
don't advertise those features as aggressively as Tesla because they are more
conservative. Tesla has the start-up bonus that Mercedes does not have and if
there was an accident, Mercedes' reputation would take a bigger hit than
Tesla's.

------
Sami_Lehtinen
On electric vehicle you can have on-board charger. There's no need to connect
the gasoline (or other fuel) unit to the traditional power train (if it exists
at all). The charger can run on only one optimal power setting and that's it.
Therefore there's no need or reason to run the engine on wide range of engine
speed at all. Either the charger is on, or off. That's it. It's only used if
the battery is low and extra power is required. And of course it's possible
heat emissions can be used for extra heating power.

------
lysium
This is just in five years. Considering that new models take about that amount
of time to be designed (on known combustion platforms), that sounds like high
speed to me!

Does that include their cargo line, too?

------
princeb
Over the last few years BMW strategically chose to shift investment away from
their current line-up into their electric line (and I think Germany's and
Europe's charging infrastructure, which they have a standard for and are
backing). They had nothing to show against MB's 2016 generation and haven't
had a good year for car sales in comparison. Now that MB has got that '16
release out of the way looks like they're going 100% into competing with and
catching up to BMW's electric line up. BMW already has the super-hyped up i8
and the i3 (and depending on your taste they may the most beautiful or the
most ugly cars ever designed). MB just discontinued their only electric. BMW
should have one more ICE refresh 2018-2020 and then it will be electric/hybrid
all the way.

they are probably concerned too about tesla but at the moment bmw, mb and vw's
audi are probably the three auto marques who can each crank out a couple
million electric cars a year by 2020 if they wanted to. it's that volume that
makes them competitive.

------
choxi
If 100% of cars on the road (globally) were electric, how much would that
impact global warming?

~~~
r00fus
According to the Union of Concerned Scientists, 20% of all emissions are
tailpipe from cars. Maybe 30% for all vehicles including trains etc.

That's a significant percentage. If the oil demand drops, theres probably
another 5-10% that could reduce.

So we're looking at probably a 30-35% drop in emissions.

As an owner of an electric (recently bought), I'm fascinated by how amazingly
agile my relatively-inexpensive Ford Focus is. If everyone drove an electric
for a day, many would likely decide to go electric purely for performance
reasons.

~~~
smitherfield
But you have to account for the fact that much/most of the electricity used by
EVs is generated in ways that produce carbon emissions. And even if we specify
that it all comes from "zero-emissions" sources there's still an environmental
cost that comes with manufacturing, and mining/processing materials, for cars,
batteries, wind turbines and solar panels, nuclear and hydropower, etc.

Which is not to say it isn't an improvement, just that it oversimplifies
things only to look at one side of the balance sheet.

~~~
danans
> much/most of the electricity used by EVs is generated in ways that produce
> carbon emissions

This is _highly_ dependent on where you live. At the extreme, North Dakota [1]
gets 75% of its electricity from coal burning. But in California, the mix is
35% Natural Gas, 25% Renewable, 10% hydro, 10% nuclear [2], so nearly half of
the electricity is carbon-neutral. If huge places like California go electric,
they will take other places along with them.

But even in the unlikely scenario of a primarily coal-based grid in the
future, the efficiency increase that comes from the centralization of
combustion at the coal plant (as opposed to in the vehicle) still results in
lower well-to-wheels CO2 emissions [3].

[1] [http://www.ndenergyforum.com/expert-
facts/](http://www.ndenergyforum.com/expert-facts/)

[2]
[http://www.energy.ca.gov/almanac/electricity_data/total_syst...](http://www.energy.ca.gov/almanac/electricity_data/total_system_power.html)

[3]
[http://mydocs.epri.com/docs/CorporateDocuments/SectorPages/P...](http://mydocs.epri.com/docs/CorporateDocuments/SectorPages/Portfolio/PDM/PHEV-
ExecSum-vol1.pdf)

------
mixmastamyk
Are there any electric cars that offer privacy? I don't want driving stats
sent to the cloud or even stored locally. I would never buy a car that's
remotely controllable either.

Front collision avoidance would be nice, but won't give up privacy for it.

~~~
bborud
You could ask the same thing about most cars with an internal combustion
engine as well. Most of them do store _some_ key data inboard. Some already
push quite a lot of data to the cloud.

The biggest reason most car manufacturers are laggards in this respect is
because they mostly don't make the onboard systems themselves. As opposed to
manufacturers like Tesla, which understand that making the onboard systems is
important both from a practical and strategic point of view.

I don't think privacy will be respected unless there are strict regulations in
place that are taken as seriously as, for instance, cheating on emissions
tests. But in recent years there has been a keenness in government to harvest
this data. So I wouldn't hold my breath.

~~~
mixmastamyk
I've got a circa 2000 manual until the privacy option arrives.

------
peterwwillis
This is nice for car owners, but public transit users will continue to get the
shaft for another 20 years. The only innovations in transit seem to be of the
mode of fuel. It's still too expensive and politically inconvenient to build
out new train service, and electrified city buses don't seem to be getting any
cheaper. Unless something changes, we're going to end up with a public-
subsidized automatic-pilot public transit network of Uber cars.

~~~
efsavage
> we're going to end up with a public-subsidized automatic-pilot public
> transit network of Uber cars.

Yes please! It seems obvious that this would be the most efficient mode of
transit, effectively turning streets into point-to-point conveyor belts.

~~~
peterwwillis
Moving individual people is insanely inefficient compared to moving large
numbers of them. It would completely immobilize roads used for daily
commuting, and it would take much much longer, not to mention it would take so
many cars as to require massive investment in additional vehicles. I mentioned
it as a sort of unlikely worst case scenario; buses will stay in some form or
another for the forseeable future. They just won't get any better.

~~~
efsavage
Having a robot car pick me up at my house and drop me off at work is far more
efficient than me having to drive to a train station, wait for the train,
switch to the subway, wait for that train, then walk to work. It could be
picking up an dropping off people on the way, it doesn't have to be a solo
vehicle. If you think about congestion as the number of people in transit at
any point, this should reduce it.

It would also reduce concentration because you wouldn't have people clustering
homes and work around transit stations, it would be more spread out.

------
arcanus
Will this be followed by large-scale lay-offs of mechanical engineers? I would
gather a large portion of the workforce (those working on ICE) are ill-suited
to electric.

~~~
c06n
No, why should it? First, apparently they mean they will offer an "electrified
version", additionally to the combustion engine models. Second, electrified
can mean a hybrid, which still has a combustion engine.

~~~
Matthias247
And third: "Will electrify" will most likely mean "will also offer at least
one electrified version of each model", and not to get rid of the gasoline
variants immediatly.

------
vadym909
Did anyone tell the Arabs yet? Qatar wants to spend $200B to host a few week
long soccer championship in 2022
[http://gulfnews.com/business/economy/blockade-vexes-
qatar-s-...](http://gulfnews.com/business/economy/blockade-vexes-
qatar-s-200b-in-world-cup-projects-1.2040993)

------
jakelarkin
also probably playing a role ... toyota hybrid patents starting to expire

------
AcerbicZero
Seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do, since MB only makes ~2
performance oriented cars at this point, and neither of those are particularly
strong competitors against the other other options at those price points.

Overall, no big loss for the car community, and maybe a little more
competition against Tesla directly will help.

------
lowglow
The move to electric vehicles is great. They certainly are fun, but as a car
guy, I'll miss the experience of filling up the tank and feeling the rumble of
the engine roaring down the road with the pedal to the floor.

Small experience to give up for the sake of the planet and future generations
though. <3

~~~
r00fus
Heh, I don't miss it at all. Especially when I out-accelerate a car likely
double or triple my car's cost without any effort.

Smoking ICE cars off the line is one of the most enjoyable things about
driving my electric.

No oil changes. No transmission replacement. No smog checks. Likely never
replace brake pads (due to regenerative braking). Only real maint left is
tires/wipers.

Seriously, if I was an auto mechanic I'd be worried about my business/career
if EV (or even hybrids - they get 50% of the reductions) went into full swing.

~~~
nilkn
Out of curiosity, which electric vehicle do you drive?

~~~
r00fus
2017 Ford Focus Electric. Listed at $31K, I got it on lease (with federal tax
credits adjusting lease price down) for $16.5K (50% financed on lease). I
probably could have gotten a better deal, even.

------
nerpderp83
High voltage, instant start systems have been talked about since I was 14, I
am over 40. This is bullshit.

------
tomohawk
Until there is a proven 450 mile range on 5 year old batteries, in the middle
of the winter, I would not consider an EV. Oh, and this should be after 5
minutes of charging.

Any old gas powered car will do at least this on a 5 minute fill up.

------
rightbyte
Well, "hybrid" in this case is a bigger engine starter and battery, that also
can propell the vehicle for a while, I assume.

This could be done with old manual cars without fancy security checks so, we
have been there, done that.

------
nopinsight
Meanwhile, India is pushing to electrify all new vehicles by 2030.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15220137](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15220137)

------
doener
Volkswagen, too:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15220405](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15220405)

------
melling
Are the hybrids like a Prius or like a plugin hybrid where you have an
electric motor where you can drive a certain distance with only the battery?

------
randyrand
Its amazing to me that Mercedes-Benz still has some non-electrified cars. How
do these non-electrified cars run their headlights or trigger the airbags?

/s

------
ant6n
So when can I get an electric Sprinter?

------
jasonmaydie
How many countries will have a grid capable of serving an electronic fleet by
2022? 5 years is very optimistic.

~~~
hospes
Entire fleet is not going to switch to electric in 2022, Mercedes-Benz will
start offering electric versions of their models in 2022, some other
manufacturers are targeting to switch to EVs around the same time span. So in
the beginning of 2020s we'll see gradual process of switching to EVs for all
car manufacturers. 5 years is plenty of time for electricity providers to
prepare their grids, especially considering that their investments will
probably pay off with an interest, since they are gonna increase sales as more
cars become electric.

Plus most of the charging probably will be scheduled at the time when
electricity usage is less and providers offer better pricing. For example in
some areas in US you can get free nights rate, at night there is less strain
on the grid and abundance of wind power makes it possible.

------
grandalf
Wow, this shows that Mercedez-Benz is terrified of what Tesla's ramp up will
do to its market share.

