
About the future of Thunderbird - ttaubert
https://blog.mozilla.org/beyond-the-code/2012/07/09/about-the-future-of-thunderbird/
======
ChuckMcM
I find this fascinating because it speaks to the challenge of software that is
'done'.

Most people are familiar with software that is 'good enough to ship, could do
more' where the software goes through release cycles and gets features added
Etc. But sometimes, and this more common with embedded programmers, the
programming is 'done.' All the features you could reasonably want are
implemented, bugs as they come up are swatted, but basically the software
itself is as it is and will be forever. Its done.

I expect to see more of this over the coming decade. While it is certainly
true you can reimagine and reimagine, and of course you might want to port
from form factor or OS to another, but the kinds of things that non-
developer's do with computers is like a monte carlo plot getting more and more
samples.

Personally I think its a Good Thing, as it might stem some of the gratuitous
changes we see on things. It also has the chance of making the world a bit
more stable.

~~~
bane
_software that is 'done'._

Kind of interesting that this doesn't appear to have explicititely happened
very often before with email software -- but intuition might imply that it
_should_ have.

~~~
antidoh
It should have happened with Thunderbird some time ago. Thunderbird is one of
those programs where my heart would sink as soon as I learned there was a new
update queued up. They _always_ break something.

~~~
rhizome
Oh come on, you _love_ the multi-tab whatever that was forced on everybody.
Thunderbird has definitely had some Gnome3-caliber failures.

~~~
antidoh
The problem with their tabs is that they put different things on the same
sized window. I like my overall Tbird to be almost full screened. But I like
messages relatively narrow, because I (and people) generally read less
efficiently if the lines are really long; it's harder to track back to the
beginning of the next line accurately.

I like tabs in urxvt, vim, Firefox, etc. But they don't work well for me in
Tbird.

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acabal
I'm pretty happy with this actually, but still a bit worried.

Happy, because for once a company didn't see a perfectly good--but decade-old
--piece of software and think, "Gee, this has been around for a decade and it
hasn't changed, let's _RE-INVENT EVERYTHING!!!_ " (See: Gnome 3, Windows 8).
Thunderbird is stable, works, and does its job excellently; no need to turn a
wheel into a square just because it's old.

On the other hand, there is still some room for improvement in Thunderbird:
Gmail integration is kind of hacky and gross-looking (A "[Gmail]" folder?
Really?), it could use better Linux desktop integration (notification icons,
OSD bubbles, etc.--all of these kind of work, but in half-assed way, I've
found). And of course, the ever-important security updates. Even stable
software needs security updates on occasion, and someone has to provide that.

So with that said: kudos to Mozilla for not undertaking change just for the
sake of change like so many other big software projects have of late; but I
hope Thunderbird gets just a little more polish before it's placed atop its
permanent pedestal, and I hope someone sticks around to keep it secure for its
second decade of life.

~~~
dfc
The gmail folder is not thunderbird's fault. Its google's imap implementation.
If you configure it correctly you should not see it.

~~~
bhrgunatha
How do you configure Thunderbird to remove the [Gmail] folder. I can select
which subfolders I subscribe to - but still the root [Gmail] folder is always
there.

~~~
mmacaulay
You can configure Gmail to not display certain folders in IMAP.

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BasDirks
"To be more specific, Mozilla will no longer focus on developing innovations
for Thunderbird but will keep it safe and stable."

I am quite content with Thunderbird as it is and welcome this news.

~~~
dfc
I think the chat integration is the last remaining puzzle piece. If
thunderbird had builtin chat and _builtin gpg support_ I'd be content. I have
never understood why smime was baked in but gpg was not. Enigmail should not
need to exist and unlike any other ff/tb plugins it used to be a pain with
amd64...

~~~
cookiecaper
Enigmail works great here. I don't really see a need to bring it mainline,
perhaps other than encouraging adoption. I use 64-bit and have used Enigmail
for 3+ years without issue now -- I think it's probably safe at this point,
especially if you can install from your package manager (as I can with an AUR
helper on Arch).

~~~
dfc
_"Enigmail works great here"_ that's good to know I never said it did not. We
can agree to disagree about it being in mainline and receiving the same
attention and support as the rest of thunderbird. I don't think your _"+3
years"_ have really exposed you to all the growing pains enigmail has had.

~~~
cookiecaper
I agree, Enigmail has been around longer than I've actively used it (for the
record, I had installed it occasionally before, but hardly used it). The point
I was making is that it seems to be stable and mature software _now_ , and
that maturity has existed for a reasonably long time. Surely there's not much
point in holding a grudge against software with a buggy past; that'd severely
limit the pool of available software...

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ori_b
So, in other words, they don't care about it. However, enough people need it,
so they can't kill it yet. For now, they have it on life support.

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jaylevitt
That's some serious newspeak, Mozilla...

"Thunderbird is not dead. We have announced a change in the way we develop new
features for Thunderbird."

... in the sense of "not doing that anymore".

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cleverjake
"We have a solid plan to support Thunderbird until the second half of 2013 and
are discussing how we support it beyond that date"

Kindof glossing over the issue, no?

~~~
omh
Exactly. If the answer is "Thunderbird is alive for about another year" then
we may as well start looking for replacements now.

~~~
beagle3
Because, you know, the day they stop committing, is the day that thunderbird
stops working and takes all your mail store with it.

Oh, actually, that's not true! I'm still using TB3 installed with my Ubuntu
10.10, and there's nothing missing there. I'm sure that the latest 2013 TB is
going to be usable through 2015 at least. No need to look for replacement now.

------
sciurus
The original post announcing the change in Thunderbird's status, written by
the Chair of the Mozilla Foundation:

[http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2012/07/06/thunderbird-
stabil...](http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2012/07/06/thunderbird-stability-
and-community-innovation/)

~~~
acqq
And the most relevant:

[https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/Proposal:_New_Release_a...](https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/Proposal:_New_Release_and_Governance_Model)

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Pelayo
I know their strategy is "everything online", but if 20+ million people are
using it (from the article) then that market doesn't look like such a waste of
time, does it?

~~~
beagle3
I suspect that unlike Firefox, which actually brings in money (mostly from
search engine referrals, specifically from Google), Thunderbird doesn't bring
in any significant money, if at all.

Mozilla is a non-profit (or is it a not-for-profit?), but I guess they're
trying to make each project self-sustaining, and if thunderbird doesn't
provide any bacon (pure speculation on my part here), then -- yes, that market
might look like a waste of time.

~~~
asadotzler
Money is not why Mozilla made this decision.

For anyone working on software at the scale Mozilla is, this truth will be
recognizable: focus can be a lot more important than financing.

Mozilla has and will continue to invest heavily in projects which have no or
minimal revenue associated with them. Sustainability matters, of course, but
there is no rule that every project or product must be individually
sustainable.

------
melicerte
I'm cross-posting here the comment I added to the mozilla blog:

[quote] Firefox went to live because of the IE dominance in the corporate and
private world. In the same idea, Thunderbird went to live to offer an
alternative to the Exchange/Outlook pair domination (and is still widely used
in the corporate world).

We have a few very good alternative to Exchange outside (Kerio and Zimbra for
instance) but Thunderbird lacks good Card/CalDav support which is a feature
request that Mozilla has completely fail to deliver. And that’s were the real
innovation was (think about it twice, please). Instead, we are seeing
Thunderbird chat coming in. “Great”. Are you kidding?

Furthermore, I don’t get Mozilla communication ATM. When I hear “What
Thunderbird users have in common is the need for a very stable and secure
email product – first and foremost.”, I just think the guy saying that is
making fun of the users.

Finally, as I said yesterday on Baker’s blog (comments), Mozilla should remove
the Donate link on its website, as long as the long term goals are as unclear
as they are now.

[/quote]

I also think that the decision to stop Thunderbird is based on a falacy:
WebMail does not make e-mail clients obsolete, or even less important.

------
johngalt
What are the good alternatives for a lightweight IMAP email client? Outlook is
pudgy and wants Exchange too badly.

~~~
jeltz
There is Evolution that is worth taking a look at. But it was buggy and had
problems with large mailboxes last time I used it (2 years ago?).

~~~
cookiecaper
Even Ubuntu, which replaced Pidgin with the very inferior Empathy so they
could be more "Gnomey", gave up on Evolution. I don't know that there's too
much hope left for that one.

~~~
jeltz
It was very promising at first. A simple no-nonsense IMAP client. But the
buggyness is what killed it for me.

------
wmf
It seems like the spin is just making the situation worse.

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conradfr
Ok, Thunderbird is dead :(

sooooo please can someone at Mozilla fixes this YEARS old bug
<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=531002> before TB's funeral ?

Also, thread conversations sucks and don't properly show new mails.

------
noselasd
Are there any stats around on how many people are using Thunderbird ? There
really arn't that many usable email clients around - yet, perhaps next to the
phone, email is really a primary way of doing business. It seems Outlook got
most of the business users..

~~~
5teev
Outlook has a captive audience. I suspect email in non-business contexts will
fade from common use before a decent email client comes along. Or maybe it
will be for "fmail" instead.

------
webwanderings
At the very least it confirms that their email client is not going to be part
of their Social Browser:

[http://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2012/07/06/bringing-s...](http://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2012/07/06/bringing-
social-to-firefox/)

------
cpeterso
If Mozilla is looking to reallocate R&D resources, I would suggest retiring
SeaMonkey.

~~~
Wilya
Given that SeaMonkey was initially (and still is, as far as I know) a
community-driven effort to keep alive Mozilla-the-browser after the foundation
had decided to stop supporting it, I suspect there is very little to be gained
on that front.

~~~
cpeterso
I didn't know that. Thanks. <:)

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SmileyKeith
Seem's like they're trying to back peddle because they realize how many people
like Thunderbird.

~~~
mbrubeck
Back-pedal on what? Both the original leaked email and the official blog post
said that Mozilla would "adapt the Thunderbird release and governance model in
a way that allows both ongoing security and stability maintenance..."

It was TechCrunch who somehow translated that into "So, that's it for
Thunderbird." :/

~~~
SmileyKeith
You're right "back-pedal" was not the correct wording. More like address how
it was received.

------
gavinlynch
Thunderbird has been dead to me ever since they completely botched search in
Thunderbird 3.

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combataircraft
The real question should be: Where the hell is the open source alternative of
Gmail?

~~~
jeltz
The most advanced open source IMAP based webmail was RoundCube last time I
checked. Not really gmail, but works well enough at least for small to normal
sized mailboxes.

<http://www.roundcube.net/>

~~~
asadotzler
How does roundcube compare with Zimbra?

~~~
zobzu
it does not. rc is a light web client. its fast, its reliable and doesnt 6ave
so many features. zimbra does a million thing. calendaring for starters.

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ibotty
interesting article. it does not really convince me though. very nice to get
an official but informal statement.

