
Java 4-ever - sbt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrfpnbGXL70
======
bd
Quote from my friend (who earns his living doing Java development):

 _"Java is COBOL of nineties. Future generations of programers will fly here
from the Moon to piss on our graves for inflicting it upon them."_

~~~
rbanffy
You can always run more... civilized languages on top of the JVM, talking to
Java classes without problem.

~~~
openfly
Or we could not use the JVM, because it's antiquated and never worked. I
mean... that seems to be where everyone went five years ago.

~~~
abstractbill
In what way does the JVM "not work"?

~~~
stcredzero
I remember the days when the JVM only had mark and sweep GC and it interpreted
bytecodes. I remember when the JIT kept on crashing, and Java apps were
catching up to Smalltalk VMs on benchmarks, but wheezing on real apps because
of poor GC. Then there was generational GC, but lots of real apps were still
wheezing because no one knew how to tune the GC settings. It took a decade for
the JVM to cover the same ground the Smalltalk VMs had covered 4 or 5 before
it.

Now the JVM is mature, and it fricken kicks ass! Really, for a high-level OO
language supporting VM, the thing just screams. It's still unwieldy and much
better suited to server stuff, but as a Smalltalker and therefore a former
longtime Java detractor, I have to say, I am really impressed.

~~~
rbanffy
So, putting it shortly, it does work.

I agree completely Smalltalk 80 kicks Java 2010's ass, but, still, saying Java
does not work is kind of exaggerated.

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strlen
If Microsoft didn't use the excellent CLR (which is much more friendly to non
C# languages than the JVM is to non-Java languages see e.g., F#) as a way to
sell their crappy systems software, they'd have crushed the JVM: both in
enterprise world (C#, while still a blub compared to OCaml, Scala, F# etc...
it is a much better language than Java and has excellent tooling for the
"large teams of average or inexperienced developers, lead by a competent
architect" use case) and amongst technology companies (while J2EE is not used
very frequently amongst them -- because of its association with moronic
garbage like EJB 2.x -- plenty use standard Java or other JVM languages).

Dear Microsoft, Mono project has in fact already done the hard work for you.
Why can't you embrace it (sponsor their developers, help them implement the
latest specifications) and bless it as the "official" CLR for Linux and Mac or
"alternative" CLR for Windows (much like Blackdown JDK was on Linux or the
situation viz. IBM's JDK).

Sun has used this strategy in the past: use their excellent OS as a way to
sell their crappy hardware ( _flame retardant suit donned for the Niagara and
UltraSparc-IV fanboys_ ). They realized it's the wrong strategy, but it was
too late.

------
martinkallstrom
My general mindset about programming languages is that it doesn't matter much
what toolset you use as long as it is one you know in and out.

Still, for some reason I personally wouldn't consider using Java for any
programming task, ever. And I'm very curious about where this sentiment comes
from. Java was my main programming language in the nineties, but the last five
years I've avoided it like the plague. Whenever I hear about Java (like when
seeing this clip), my spontaneous reaction is "Do people still use Java?". And
that is with my wife working at Ericsson using Java as one of their main
environments in huge projects alongside with C++ and Erlang. Still, it is as
if I've been burnt by it. I don't want anything to do with it.

All I can come up with is that I maybe never fully grasped the build tools.
I've worked in fairly large Java projects. But always with a feeling of not
being fully in control, of relying on trial and error in some situations. With
other toolsets I feel fully in control.

It's not you Java, it's me. But I still don't trust you. You never let me in
on your secrets.

~~~
Tichy
Most of my professional work life has been developing Java, and my feelings
are similar to yours. I really can't stand it anymore.

However, I wonder if part of it is the experience that "most Java jobs suck",
whereas in reality most jobs suck. So had I been a Ruby developer for the last
10 years, maybe now I would be sick of Ruby.

That said, there also a number of evident things that annoy me about Java.

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spivey
Has the Java the brand completely evolved from a enterprise Sun product, into
a counterculture language? With GWT and other JVM languages, Java is starting
to look cool again.

~~~
hello_moto
not cool, just mature/polished/stable.

~~~
rbanffy
Come on... The JVM is cool.

~~~
wvenable
The JVM is the x86 of the VM world. Ugly, used for things it was never
designed to properly handle, but also heavily optimized.

~~~
rbanffy
No way it could be as ugly as an x86. The x86 has been with us since the 8080
days (the 8086 was a 16-bit 8085, done in a hurry because the i432 flopped).
It's a kludge wrapped in a another kludge.

Or, as people say, it's kludges all the way down.

~~~
wvenable
It's not a generic VM. Sure it's got a lot of basic instructions for adding
(signed) numbers together but a lot of important instructions are very high-
level and very specific to Java. It was never designed to run anything else.
So non-Java languages ported to the JVM do involve kludges. The comparison to
x86 isn't far off.

~~~
rbanffy
It's improving. Java 7 is much friendlier to dynamic languages and, with it,
many of the kludges will be a thing of the past.

It would need to be _really_ inelegant to warrant a comparison with the x86...

~~~
bad_user
> _Java 7 is much friendlier to dynamic languages ... it would need to be
> really inelegant to warrant a comparison with the x86_

Not that much, and not that inelegant ... at least x86 evolved a lot since
8086. The JVM itself evolved only in the internal architecture, but the
bytecode itself is almost the same since Java 1.

The best VM for multiple language will soon prove to be LLVM, only because it
makes your code cross-platform, while being low-level enough and not being
strangled by a standards body.

It's actually easier to build a compiler for LLVM than it is for the JVM ...
you might not go at first with a generational GC, and the speed might be
terrible ... but at least you have room to grow ...

I have yet to see a language on top of the JVM beat LuaJIT2 (even Java itself
can hardly beat it in simpler benchmarks). And the optimizations in Java7 can
be achieved today in Java6 (with lots of workarounds, of course).

~~~
rbanffy
Saying the x86 evolved is like saying that, it would be evolution if I grew
half a dozen tentacles, wings, two more unconnected brains, an exoskeleton and
poison bags.

If you start with a can opener and attach it seats, engine, wheels,
transmission and a steering wheel, all in ways it can still be in your kitchen
and open cans, is it a car or a can opener? That's an x86.

I am not saying the JVM is the VM to end all VMs. It's just that it's nicely
done. Much unlike the x86.

------
ukdm
I think I just found my perfect stand-up/kneel-down laptop stand

~~~
ZeroGravitas
Yes, I was just about to comment that there's a comedic but still NSFW scene
near the end.

~~~
wlievens
The entire video is NSFW if you work in a .NET shop. But then again, those are
likely to have YouTube blocked! :-)

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norswap
I laughed, but I don't think it was in the way intended by the authors.

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d0m
It's insane how a good music background can make a difference.

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soyelmango
ha, genius sound editing at 1:22!

~~~
tricky
i thought one of my vm's had shut down.

------
ary
NSFW. A little courtesy next time.

~~~
igorgue
you work at a .NET shop?

~~~
zephjc
Or maybe a company full of boring, humorless teetotalers.

~~~
ary
Not everyone has a boss that will casually look over their shoulder and laugh
at the sex scene they're watching at work. Bully for you though.

------
l0nwlf
I wonder what was Apple's Macbook Pro doing in that .net fanboi/freak house.
They should be using windows on some dell/hp machine.

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adamilardi
Wow that was funny! All roads lead to the JVM.

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jncraton
This is precisely the type of content that shouldn't be here on HN. Sure, it's
funny, but it doesn't help to facilitate intelligent discussion or add value
other than humor.

~~~
zyb09
You know having humor is actually considered a good character trait.

~~~
rbanffy
Not only that, but one of the best ways to achieve enlightenment.

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mkramlich
Funny! And the best humor usually has elements of truth to it as well.

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c00p3r
The one of the main activities of a man is to support their own [de|i]llusion
and avoiding to see things as they are. ^_^

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d_c
Hilarious.

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nerfhammer
A for effort.

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openfly
Heh if it wasn't for google Java would be completely dead.

~~~
keytweetlouie
Java is everywhere. You wouldn't see it on hacker news but rest assured major
corporations around the world are still using java and will still be using
java for years to come. I do acknowledge some may switch to dot net.

~~~
philwelch
s/Java/COBOL/ig on your comment and it's just as true.

~~~
openfly
And COBOL is a horrible language.

But, I still think Fortran was pretty sweet. Also still has a pretty large
user base. Especially among engineers.

