
Cat vs. panel heater: which is better? - sillybilly
https://www.oneroof.co.nz/news/38319
======
reaperducer
I was once desperately poor. Too poor to turn on the heat. But I did have
access to friendly cats, so I've been through this experiment in real life.

One cat stuffed under the blankets at night is a significant improvement. But
as you add more and more cats, the improvement becomes only incremental.

I eventually learned that two cats was really the best one could hope for.
Best positioning is between the legs, and with the blankets pulled up over my
head with a little crack for breathing. After that, adding more cats doesn't
help much.

If I was still cold after two cats, I had to break down and turn on the heat.

~~~
Polylactic_acid
Have you tried just adding more blankets. I never run heating at night because
I find that even at 0c outside I can just stack up 4 blankets and still be
warm.

~~~
Legogris
Having slept outdoors a lot in the past, I think many people underestimate the
importance of the ground/floor/bed in keeping from freezing.

If you have excess blankets, it could make more difference to put them under
you as opposed to above you. Even spruce branches or cardboard will lift you
from the ground enough to make a difference in a pinch.

~~~
Torkel
I agree - I packed an air mattress to sleep on during camping when it was cold
on the ground. The air didn't insulate as well as I expected so I was freezing
from below.

There are so many things around us that are such incredible achievements in
comfort over not having them. It is a good experience living without some of
them for a while to get appreciation for it:

\- electricity \- heating \- beds \- running water \- showers \- drains
(sewer? I mean being able to pour out water in the kitchen, not having to
carry it out) \- washing machine \- (etc)

~~~
thaumasiotes
> I packed an air mattress to sleep on during camping when it was cold on the
> ground. The air didn't insulate as well as I expected so I was freezing from
> below.

No sleeping bag?

~~~
Torkel
No, for some reason I decided to use a regular duvet. With a sleeping bag it
would probably have been less of an issue.

~~~
Cthulhu_
I was going to say, I never really understood why sleeping bags seem to be the
default for camping but I get it now.

~~~
thaumasiotes
They're warmer, more comfortable, easier to carry...

------
xoa
An interesting study, but spatially non-uniform dynamic thermal location and
local partial biomass availability seem like factors here. While direct
heaters, ground source heat pumps in particular, can be exceptionally
efficient and functional year round, they ultimately have fixed exchange
locations and must bring the whole house volume to temperature. Whereas a cat
heater is dynamic: for example while I am sleeping the cat is liable to apply
all 15 watts directly to my face. I can anecdotally report a significant
insulation effect as well. Or while I'm desperately trying to complete a final
sprint the cat may decide that my keyboard is the ideal radiative location. A
proper heating model probably needs to take this into account albeit with a
lot of chaos and quantum theory mixed in as the cat may or may not be
providing heat until observed. And cats in general are equipped with local
biomass harvesting and conversion capabilities that may further alter
supplemental fuel costs.

Never the less I certainly look forward to continued research on this topic!

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
Are you aware of Nathan W. Pyle?

His Strange Planet comic is written a bit like this

------
guycook
Sorry to be the downer on this article, but if you head to oneroof's "news"
page [0] you'll see their entire raison d'être is to push out articles for
NZ's media outlets to reproduce in the hopes of encouraging the continued
misallocation of capital into residential real estate. So them making light of
the house heating situation is in extremely poor taste considering such issues
as NZ being the only developed country in the world with significant instances
of rheumatic fever [1] and a quarter of South Island renters being stuck with
cold and mouldy accommodation [2] (which they couldn't leave for weeks due to
the pandemic).

[0] [https://www.oneroof.co.nz/news/latest-
news](https://www.oneroof.co.nz/news/latest-news)

[1] [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/122260447/we-have-
to...](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/122260447/we-have-totally-
failed-rheumatic-fever-the-third-world-disease-entrenched-in-new-zealand)

[2] [https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown/warmth-
issue-25-ren...](https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown/warmth-
issue-25-renters)

~~~
xsmasher
Can you connect the last dot for me and explain why "(mis)allocation of
capital into residential real estate" is bad for warmth, affordability, and
fighting rheumatic fever?

~~~
potatochup
Presumably, high rates of investment drive up prices (since supply is somewhat
constrained). High prices reduce the ability for people to purchase, so they
have to rent, but then higher purchase price means the investors have to
increase rent too. This means there is a lot of demand at the low end of the
housing market, where houses aren't as well maintained/insulated/upgraded

~~~
mleonhard
Investing in housing should lead to building more housing, which will lower
prices for everyone. Is the investment only used to renovate existing housing?

~~~
potatochup
Buying a house (in NZ) is a liquid investment with better returns than the
stock market and no captial gains tax. Building involves much more risk,
nimbyisn, geographic constraints. The cost of building is more closely related
to the cost of labour than it is materials, so even at higher prices margins
aren't nessecarily better.

------
rurp
The first time I took my cat camping it was much colder than expected. At bed
time I filled a bottle with hot water and wrapped my cat up in a blanket with
it. Being a cat, he immediately squirmed his way out of it and started walking
around the freezing tent.

I was starting to get worried until the little guy realized he could just
barely squeeze into my zipped up sleeping bag.

It was a big mess of fur and limbs all night, but we both managed to stay warm
enough.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
You took your cat camping?

~~~
Cro_on
'take' would appear to be the correct tense – this is apparently just about
_the first time_. i recently discovered that cats can actually be trained, to
a certain extent (mostly behavioural tricks as opposed to commands). i wonder
if it's possible to guide certain cat traits for your own benefit. imagine Cat
goes out hunting and returns, leaving a rabbit at your feet, while you are
preparing the campfire. my guess is that it would be possible to encourage,
though not so to choose your dinner.

~~~
rurp
I actually did train this same cat in a lot of the classic dog commands. He'll
sit, shake, lay down, and roll over on command. It's certainly harder to train
a cat on commands but it ended up being a little easier than I thought it
would be going in.

I think it helps to have a cat that's highly food motivated. While following
orders comes naturally to a lot of dogs, training a cat feels more like a
bartering system. He'll put up with my silly requests in exchange for treats
that he likes. If the treats stopped coming I doubt he would keep following
instructions for long.

------
pugworthy
Bertha's Kitty Boutique was already on this in 2005...

> Bertha's Kitty Boutique reminds you that heating bills are going to be high
> this winter and on these cold winter nights, there's nothing more comforting
> than a warm cat. (PURRING) And if one cat can warm you up, think of what 6,
> or 10 of 'em could do. These are skinny designer cats, these are big heater
> cats (MEOW) who use tuna for fuel and produce enough BTUs to heat up your
> whole bed and your bedroom too. And we have them in all styles to go with
> your bedroom decor -- tabby cats, angora, Siamese, orange cats, black cats
> -- anywhere from 30 pounders up to the family size. Heater cats from
> Bertha's (MEOW) Hurry in while supplies last.

[https://www.prairiehome.org/story/2005/10/01/berthas-
kitty-b...](https://www.prairiehome.org/story/2005/10/01/berthas-kitty-
boutique.html)

------
TaylorAlexander
“ A 3kg cat has a heat output of 14.8 watts, or 129.65 kilowatt-hours...”

Playing fast and loose here. That’s 129.65 kilowatt hours per year. 14.8 watts
is 0.0148 kilowatts of course. Kilowatt hours are a measure of total energy
output over a given time not instantaneous output.

~~~
viraptor
Also that's kWh summed up over the year. Cats have constant output, but for
house heating you'd want to concentrate it to just ~3-4 months. So we're
closer to 50-60 cats at that point.

------
rjmunro
I was put off by the following sentence:

> ... 14.8 watts, or 129.65 kilowatt-hours - the metric commonly used by power
> companies ...

It should say 129.65 kilowatt-hours PER YEAR. Without the time, it's like
saying "a car goes at 50mph or 1000 miles". It's just nonsense.

~~~
dhosek
I briefly found myself thinking that the cat was the metric commonly used by
power companies.

~~~
jonnypotty
Now you're talking sense

------
emmelaich
Reminds me of the story of how Three Dog Night got their name.

Apparently it referred to Australian Aborigines using three dingos to sleep
with on very cold nights.

~~~
simonsmithies
Since getting a dog I’ve learned dogs and cats both run a degree or two hotter
than we do — 38-39 C as against our 37. Noticeably adds to the comfort level,
even if there’s only one under the covers.

------
dkersten
Not sure where they got their cost estimate from, but I spend a lot more than
$250/year on each of my two cats (and 250 NZD is only ~160 USD). Still, fun
article :)

~~~
BLKNSLVR
I recently had to choose between these two options:

    
    
      1. Removal of splinter from pet cat's eyeball: $1,650
      2. Removal of cat's eyeball: $1,400
    

Blew out my pet budget for a long while. I have the photo that the vet
ophthalmologist took - they were cool enough to send it to us.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Apologies if it's insensitive, but I'm curious what the financial cost of
"putting cat down and acquiring new cat" would be; mere intellectual
curiosity.

~~~
BLKNSLVR
$50 to get a vet to put a cat down. And roughly the same amount to get a
desexed, flea-treated moggy from a shelter.

------
carabiner
Definitely noticed a difference in getting a cat on heating requirements in
Seattle. I got two cats now, and my heat is turned off year round.

------
bitwize
The ideal number of cats per home in New Zealand is zero. Cats prey on local
wildlife, much of which is near extinction as it is because of introduced
predators including humans. Those who advocate for banning cats in New Zealand
have a pretty strong case.

~~~
dundarious
Is there an argument against indoor cats? That is now the recommendation in
the US, as far as I know.

~~~
bacon_waffle
I live in NZ and my partner has an indoor-only cat. It's considered a bit
weird here, we've had friends politely suggest that keeping a cat indoors is
cruel. In principle indoor cats are just as good for bird life as no cats, but
either is a tough sell.

~~~
randallsquared
Considering longer lifespan, better health, and seemingly equivalent
happiness, it's arguable that _not_ keeping a cat indoors is cruel.

~~~
smabie
Just like how it's arguably cruel to _not_ move all wildlife into zoos and
cages.

~~~
randallsquared
Assuming we're agreeing to use QALYs, I think that's unlikely, but don't let
my skepticism stop you from arguing it. :)

------
dfox
As for the title itself (and probably my understanding of NZ english), for me
“panel heater” means one of the modern electric powered planar sources of IR
radiation and after living for few months in flat heated by only such things
I’ve found that only reasonable way to use such electric heaters is that these
things somehow warm up your cats and nothing much else in the room ;)

------
throwanem
I had to dry out my boots once with a panel heater, after a passing driver
decided to enliven my rainy-day walking commute by driving through an
overflowing gutter and drenching me from head to toe.

I wouldn't have liked to try it with a cat instead...

~~~
desultir
Use enough duct tape and a cat would be fine for this

~~~
throwanem
Wow, for real? What a fucked-up thing to say.

~~~
NateEag
There is a thing called sarcasm you may want to look into.

~~~
throwanem
I mean, I get that it's _trying_ to be a joke. But it's not trying very hard.

------
jefftk
_> as cats cannot be used for cooling, you would also have to introduce an
alternative cooling system such as lizards or other cold-blooded animals_

Even cold blooded animals produce more heat than they consume.

~~~
eloff
It was a joke.

------
dandare
> A 3kg cat has a heat output of 14.8 watts, or 129.65 kilowatt-hours

I don't get it, how is 14.8 watts equal to 129.65 kilowatt-hours?

~~~
kwhitefoot
They forgot to specify per year.

(129650 WHr/14.8 W)/24 hr = 365 days

------
steadicat
Unfortunately, in my experience, cats are endothermic. Give a cat a heat
source – a sunny patch, a heated blanket, or a warm belly – and they will
cling to it until all the heat is absorbed out of it. Cats need heat sources
to thrive, so they will be very unhappy if operated as a heat source.

~~~
mark-r
Some cats recognize that the benefit is mutual. I have 4 cats, and 1 of the 4
will lay with me in a way that we provide a warm surface for each other.

------
superkuh
Tough to say. All I saw was a blank white page with no text or images. After
jumping through some hoops I saw all that javascript was for a couple
paragraphs of text. So I'll just mirror it here for others.

As an aside about the actual content: cats come with vet bills you have to be
able to pay if you want to ethically own one. That's a huge expense.

    
    
        Cat v panel heater: Which is better?
        6:34 AM, 24 Aug 2020 James Powers
    
        Cats are affectionate, panel heaters are not.
        How many cats do you need to heat an energy-efficient home?
        It’s the question on everybody's lips. Well, maybe not everyone's lips, and it's possible this is a niche topic, but it is relevant.
        A 3kg cat has a heat output of 14.8 watts, or 129.65 kilowatt-hours - the metric commonly used by power companies to show you how much energy you're using.
        These numbers are important when it comes to the design and building of energy-efficient homes, as the heat output of random things like cats can lead to overheating.
        For example, to be certified Passive House, a building must have an annual heating demand of less than 15kWh per square metre to maintain a comfortable temperature.
        For a typical Kiwi house of 150sqm, the annual energy demand would be 2250kWh. The number of cats required, therefore, would be 17.35, but let's avoid chopping cats and round up to 18 whole cats.
        This equates to 1 cat per 8.33sqm.
        Easy as. Let’s bulk order a cat litter.
        Cats cost about $250 per year to ‘operate’ which equates to a total running cost of $4,300 per year*. This is a bit more than $475 for gas or $675 for electric, although the installation cost is less for cats.
        * The calculations have used an average heat load. In reality, the heat load will vary considerably throughout the year. You will need significantly more cats in colder weather and less during mild weather.
        In hot weather, you can, of course, let the cats out, but this represents a significant waste of resources if you continue to feed them. And as cats cannot be used for cooling, you would also have to introduce an alternative cooling system such as lizards or other cold-blooded animals.

~~~
pugworthy
In addition to vet bills there is grief at their passing. Nobody talks years
later about that wonderful heater they had back in 1998 and how despite the
furnace repair bills, they’d do it all over again just because of how it made
the most pleasing sound when it ran, almost like a cats purr.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I wouldn't be surprised if someone does reminisce about such a thing!

Bizarrely I was thinking recently about an extremely lamentable performance of
a storage heater 20years back. It wasn't even my heater!

------
nkoren
This surely should give some credit to the venerable old Solar Cat Book:

[https://www.amazon.com/Solar-Cat-Book-Jim-
Augustyn/dp/089815...](https://www.amazon.com/Solar-Cat-Book-Jim-
Augustyn/dp/0898150183)

(Which would evidently make me an alarming amount of money if I could find my
old copy of it...)

------
cafard
Then there was the couple who got a kitten. The first night it woke up down
around the husband's ankles. It started to walk forward until it found its
path blocked. It then dug into his thighs to climb out, and found itself
launched from the bed along with husband and blankets.

(Source: the ex-wife. I don't think the kitten contributed to the breakup of
the marriage, though.)

------
jonnypotty
Panel heaters don't spew up on my laptop or piss on my £1500 TV, so I'd say
pannel heaters are.

------
bluedino
A bullmastiff easily puts off as much heat as another human (maybe two) and
doubles as an alarm clock.

~~~
BLKNSLVR
Our cat acts as an alarm clock. Pretty close to 5:30 every day. The problem is
that no one in the house needs to get up at 5:30 (except the person that
doesn't want the cat to shit inside).

~~~
mark-r
We have litter boxes that operate 24/7\. The problem is when the cats run out
of food at 5:30.

~~~
arethuza
Our cat gets me up at about 6:30 just because he can.

------
LinusS1
I wonder... if you feed a cat more, it will become bigger, and so it will
produce more heat.

~~~
lambdatronics
Assume a spherical cat. As the cat gets bigger, the surface to volume ratio
goes down, so the cat gets hotter. This will lower its metabolism, which means
that the food calories increasingly go toward storage, which makes the cat get
even larger. Asymptotically speaking, the cat tends to become a furry blob of
melted lard.

~~~
theandrewbailey
Can you come to my farm? I have a problem.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow)

------
4x5-Guy
Cats, definitely.

Friendlier then a panel heater, and contrary to popular opinion they are
social animals.

~~~
MaxBarraclough
> Friendlier then a panel heater

Depends on the cat, no?

------
CPLX
But what happens if there's an unlimited supply of mice?

~~~
p1mrx
Smaller animals produce more heat per unit volume, and meat isn't a very
efficient form of energy transfer, so you're probably better off filling the
house with mice.

------
garmaine
Cat lady was on to something.

~~~
glouwbug
I assume you are referencing The Simpsons. If so, you shouldn't be down voted.

------
gpm
$675 for 2250kWh of electricity? They're doing something wrong.

That's 30 cents per kwh of _heat_. Even if you just use resistive heating you
beat that in every state, and probably most of the rest of the world.

But it's better than that, because that's heat not electricity. 4 watts of
heat transfer for 1 watt of electricity is reasonable with a heat pump, so
it's $1.20, or if you consider that co-efficient of performance (COP) is
typically measured for cooling and we should be counting the electrical waste
heat here a COP of 5, which makes their number $1.50 per kwh.

~~~
Polylactic_acid
>Even if you just use resistive heating you beat that in every state, and
probably most of the rest of the world.

New Zealand does not have states. You are likely also confusing NZD with USD.
The price listed seems entirely reasonable when you understand this.

~~~
gpm
Ah, good point. I just assumed that unqualified dollars on the internet meant
"USD"...

