
Malawi app 'teaches UK pupils 18 months of maths in six weeks' - pinkyand
http://m.bbc.com/news/technology-29063614
======
hariharan_uno
Not related to the app, but I wish people stop measuring education with time.
In my opinion, kids must spend quite a bit of time understanding basic stuff.
Information overdose reduces the quality of understanding. So, the metric
shouldn't be "18 months of maths in 6 weeks". A child who learnt the same
stuff in 18 months is able to comprehend advanced stuff in the later stages
than a kid who learnt it in 6 weeks. Again, this is not a criticism about the
app. We just need to give time for kids to learn stuff.

~~~
robert_tweed
There's no evidence that is the case though. This app is highly interactive
and provides immediate feedback, so the child knows whether they are doing
things right or wrong.

The fact that it's more like a game means it's much more geared to the way
that children learn than just working through a bunch of problems from a book
or on a blackboard. It also allows the kids to progress at their own rate:
spending more time on bits they don't understand until they do understand
them. Class learning tends to be subject to the lowest common denominator, or
conversely some kids at the lower end of the scale get left behind.

There's significant evidence that learning by interacting is the best way to
promote retention. It's probably also fair to assume that the app itself does
not simply promote rote learning of facts either, but rather understanding how
the concepts work and repeatedly applying them to unfamiliar problems.

That seems to me to be far more optimal use of the time and creates a solid
foundation for going on to understand more advanced concepts later.

Alternatively, why not simply spend 18 months working through even more
problems on the app to get better and better? I suspect that the law of
diminishing returns kicks in pretty quickly and you don't get much benefit
simply through longer exposure at the same level. Instead, you can just
introduce more advanced concepts earlier and keep on learning. That doesn't
necessarily result in information overload, so long as you are continually
building on top of a foundation of throughly understanding the simpler
concepts and continuing to use them.

For example, once you understand addition you don't really ever stop using it
and forget how to do it. Rather, you go on to learn about multiplication,
exponentiation, etc. and hopefully, do so realising that they are all just
fancy kinds of addition. I think it's much better if teachers can focus on
ensuring that their pupils have that kind of understanding and are capable of
applying it, than for example making sure that they can recite all the
multiplication tables.

Of course, how you should learn maths differs a bit depending on whether your
ultimate goal is to be a greengrocer or a computer scientist. Hopefully we're
mostly focusing on the latter now.

~~~
e12e
Indeed. If we had unlimited resources, the best way to teach would probably
one teacher per one (or two-three) child(ren). When you're working closely
with one student, you can focus on just what _that_ student needs to
learn/needs help with. That probably doesn't scale up to the wide level of
schooling that a modern industrialized world needs though (Maybe we should
leverage that wasted extra efficiency we've picked up to recruit _everyone_ in
the work force to work 4 days at their job, and 1 day as a teacher?).

It sounds like this kind of computer-assisted learning might be able to
increase teaching/learning efficiency similarly to what can be achieved with
good one-on-one tutoring.

------
ern
I have these apps, my kids love them,and they do get many concepts across very
quickly. It's good to know that they are part of a bigger cause.

However, if the apps described in the article are the same as those in the App
Store, then some of the concepts are very simple (the early levels can be done
by a 2 year old) so it isn't surprising that older children do very well after
they are exposed to them.

The later levels on number-lines and fractions are a bit more challenging, it
will be interesting to see how well children do on those.

Regardless, even though some of the exercises seem boring and repetitive to an
adult, they do seem to have the knack of holding children's' attention.

------
ook
[https://onebillion.org.uk/apps](https://onebillion.org.uk/apps)

~~~
DanBC
Holy moly - the "maths age 3 to 5" app is expensive. £15.99 for "all topics".
That's $25.

~~~
Silhouette
So these apps reportedly get a child the equivalent of 18 months of
mathematical development in 6 weeks of short, fun sessions? In that case, it
does seem the £15.99 price is off by at least an order of magnitude, but I
suspect we disagree on the direction.

~~~
vidarh
For comparison, there are UK private primary schools that will cost you about
GBP 12k/year that deliver far less measurable benefit (if any) than that, that
are still wildly successful at attracting students.

~~~
makomk
The benefit of those is generally teaching kids how to pass the entrance exams
for good secondary schools.

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OoTheNigerian
If they intend to reach a billion people especially in Africa I'd say Android
should be the priority platform.

~~~
coob
If you read one billion's materials, iPads are used as they last longer in the
environment they're kept in and get better battery life. When you're charging
for a day's use from solar, that matters.

The apps are also written in a cross platform framework. If a good enough
Android tablet comes along, it can be used. Their Maths age 3-5 app is
available on Google Play.

Disclosure: I'm familiar with the team.

~~~
OoTheNigerian
>If a good enough Android tablet comes along, it can be used.

You have made valid points. However, the fact on ground shows that this a
continent powered by Android in the smart device category. It used to be
Blackberry but that is on the way out.

People should be able to afford the device before thinking about how long the
battery will last. And I see the apps are available on phones. There are great
Android phones that last quite long.

Do you know you need a credit/debit card before you can access the itunes
store? How many people have access to that here?

Can you give be a link to the Android app I cannot see it on the website.

~~~
mamcx
So the inner idea is that poor people must buy poor devices and higher quality
is not for them. I have this discussion _a lot_ with my customers about why
give a more costly iOS device instead of android to their employers.

iOS devices are more higher quality, more durable, more up-to-date in matter
of software and have better app selection, quality and less prone to be
invaded by virus and that kind of stuff. And yep, if you let people choose
only for price them will NOT buy the best best best android device.

Specially because somebody is cash deprived is why the one with most quality,
most durable, more long-lasting life is the smart choose, because we don't
have money for replacement (We, because I know what is be in that situation).

So, if a charity wanna help poor people, is smart that they choose the best
available option, not using the criteria : Poor people? Low-cost for them!

~~~
judk
Or you can actually ask a bunch of people in your target market what OS their
current device runs. The answer is Android, in this case. In much if Africa,
cheap and long life is the way to go, and local variations on worldwide tech
reflect that.

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doctorpangloss
> And after 30 minutes, she told us, most of the children have had enough and
> want to go and play outside. Reassuring for anyone who, like me, would
> rather not have a child who prefers apps to apples.

But why? Faced with straightforward evidence of better performance, even for
UK children, why should we be relieved that the app fails at 30 minutes?

We should be talking about making games that teach kids for hours! That little
tablet is way more engaging than 99% of the experiences impoverished Malawi
children are going to have. Perhaps sadly, the tablet is way more engaging
that some large majority of experiences UK children will have too.

It's obvious to anyone who plays video games that achieving that level of
attention is possible. And with games like Civilization and Europa
Universalis, you can certainly make a long-play game that teaches kids
traditional educational knowledge.

I hate the conspiracy idea that educators are opposed to this technology out-
of-hand because it threatens them as an institution. And I'm relieved that
there are researchers with government backing showing games teaching kids in
rich Western countries.

At some point though, parents will have to confront teachers to do what
improves performance. The question is not, when will games be capable of
improving educational performance? That has already happened, and the evidence
will mount inevitably.

The question is, when will we abandon the pastoral fantasy of today's
schooling? When will parents have no opinion whether a child "prefers apps to
apples," whatever that means?

The dark-age Carolingians made the template for today's public schooling. If a
magic book capable of delivering all the world's knowledge (i.e., an iPad)
were available to them, don't you think they'd make a very different education
system?

~~~
beaner
You make it sound like they use it once and put it down forever. They don't.
They put it down to go play (which, at that age, is another type of learning).
Then they come back, maybe later that day, or the next.

Haven't there been studies on this? The human brain is not good at absorbing
information after durations longer than this. It has to have time to process
information before it can build on top of it. This is why khan academy and
duolingo are so effective, too - you consume little bites of knowledge, go
away and process them, and then come back.

Entertainment is not the same thing as learning. Videogames and movies are so
completely different from the learning process. Yeah, you can learn from them,
but for that amount of time not to be taxing you have to fill it with other
stuff. Like a storyline and action and drama. They have passive elements which
constitute most of their length.

The constant force-stream of modern classrooms is what makes them so dull and
tiring, and gives us stupid kids and disappointing graduates. I think it's
pretty awesome that they get to focus for half an hour and _learn at their own
pace_ (the most critical part), then get to enjoy being kids for a while.

~~~
AJ007
And 30 minutes is about the point where sitting stationary becomes physically
bad for you. To the previous poster, try sitting and playing a strategy game
for 6 to 10 hours. You should feel like shit afterwords.

Putting my adult body through sitting in a school desk 5 days a week, my
health would be in serious trouble within a few months.

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pinkyand
I wonder: In the article they mention that the reasons for such effectiveness
are "rapid personalized feedback" and "entertaining content keeping kids
focused".

Those reasons could apply to many educational fields. So i wonder: are there
any other apps/sites showing very strong gains versus standard teaching?

~~~
akbar501
> the reasons for such effectiveness are ... "entertaining content keeping
> kids focused"

I'd be interested to see studies emerge on the value of entertainment in
educational content as the child ages.

In my direct experience with my own children, entertainment provides value due
to engagement as mentioned in the article. But, entertainment switches from
engagement to distraction around age 5 or so.

My 2 year old definitely stays more engaged with the alphabet app and basic
counting apps when they are entertaining.

However, entertainment is highly distracting to my 6 year old.

I've found at 6 she's more interested in how the learning actually applies to
the real world, so she engages with educational apps as a means to an end. For
example, she likes to write stories. So, she asked me to download spelling
apps so that's its easier for mom and dad to read her stories.

With all of that said, I'm a huge believer in the potential of technology to
improve education. IMHO, education is no where near optimal.

~~~
mcintyre1994
I think this could just be a question of implementation. For example,
Duolingo's gamification is fantastic as an adult.

~~~
watwut
My personal experience is that Duolingo is fun for two months maximum and then
it becomes an equivalent of any other exercises sheet.

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jacquesm
This strongly reminds me of my favorite Derek Sivers post titled 'There is no
speed limit'. If you haven't read it please do:

[http://sivers.org/kimo](http://sivers.org/kimo)

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norganic
Aside from the issue of the teaching methods being compared through
measurements of time, can we discuss what, if anything is lost through this
teaching platform? While it is not being suggested as a teaching replacement,
does the lack of social engagement or the confusion on real world applications
have any bearing on the way this material is stored inside these young minds?
Perhaps if a portion of the lesson included participating as a group, or if
the system switched from a lesson guide on the screen to a few remarks from
the educator as a back in forth it may better incorporate both the advantages
of technology and the advantages of a caring educator? I am curious to read
more articles or research on such combinations if anyone can point me in the
right direction. Thank you.

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NKCSS
Cool, I think this is the first positive article I've read about tablets at
school.

And if you want, you can get the apps for your child for free at
[https://onebillion.org.uk/apps](https://onebillion.org.uk/apps)

~~~
skyshine
Shame they are only available for iPads and not androids. The app might be
free but iPads are expensive, especially for poor families.

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allegory
I really don't like commenting on these threads but I had to bite here.

I call bullshit on this. 18 months of maths is a completely vacuous measure of
anything and this is pandering to teachers getting even more lazy and
dependent on technology as a magic bullet.

As a parent in the UK with three children at school, I can safely say that the
problem is that mathematics teaching is just totally shit. The methods are
totally ineffective and the fundamentals just aren't taught. It's about
teaching the mechanics of passing tests, particularly at primary level which
is about the SATs and nothing else. That's why this seems like such a
wonderful headline and the BBC sensationalises it.

Teachers buy in every technical measure and scheme that avoids introspection
and looking at the real problem.

~~~
coob
Have you read the study?

[https://onebillion.org.uk/downloads/unlocking-talent-
final-r...](https://onebillion.org.uk/downloads/unlocking-talent-final-
report.pdf)

Would be interested to hear your comments on what you think is wrong with the
methodology and conclusion?

~~~
allegory
I'll read this today in detail and reply later.

I've read similar studies before (I'm on the chair of governers for a school)
and will approach with an open mind.

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dharma1
downloaded the apps, will test these with our 4 year old over a few days.

What mobile apps that effectively teach kids programming would you recommend?
I have seen Scratch mentioned, and some Minecraft mods, any others that would
actually work? The UK has an initiative to teach primary school kids
programming, but I dread to think what the quality of teachers or children to
teacher ratio will be.

~~~
julius
If your kid likes wizards. This looks like fun:
[http://codespells.org/](http://codespells.org/)

They claim to have tested this with kids at their university with great
success (watch the video).

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ddebernardy
Immediately after high school, we got a "revision" class on maths. We did
12-years worth of it in 4 hours.

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guard-of-terra
Math is not measurable in weeks.

~~~
DanBC
England has a common curriculum so you can measure maths in months.
[http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Curriculum_(England,...](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Curriculum_\(England,_Wales_and_Northern_Ireland\))

~~~
e12e
The only gripe I have is that they say the kids are using the apps for 30
minutes every day, for six weeks (presumably, that's 5 _6_ 30minutes, not 7
_6_ 30) -- but I don't know how much math kids that age get in school? Is it
45 minutes a day? Every other day?

~~~
lutusp
Put spaces around your asterisks, to prevent their other interpretation in HN
posts (i.e. markdown italic).

~~~
e12e
Thanks for pointing it out (for posterity, and new users) -- I really do know
better, but I always forget, whenever I try to write some math in-line in a
comment... now the edit-window for parent was closed.

