

Idea that intestinal bacteria affect mental health gains ground - whyenot
http://www.nature.com/news/gut-brain-link-grabs-neuroscientists-1.16316

======
eande
About 5 years ago I stopped eating gluten. For me it was mostly some
intolerance and skin reaction. Needless to say how well I am doing now
compared to before. Finding the link was the hard part and took decades.

A side effect I noticed was the disappearance of allergies. I had some level
of pollen allergies and can't recall to have any reactions anymore, which is
part of having a improved immune system function.

This is where it gets interesting to that article. I also noticed my general
far better mood stability. I never had much of a problem, but like any human
some ups and downs. Being more energetic I recognized also that I am far more
upbeat. I do have no real explanation and it is only my case, but I can see
the link between the digestion and depression.

~~~
akg
I read somewhere (references below), that most "gluten sensitivity" cases in
the US is actually sensitivity to certain pesticides that are used in wheat
farming. That's why most people who suffer from gluten sensitivity in the US
do just fine when they eat bread in Europe. Have you considered moving to non-
GMO certified organic wheat products and seen any difference in your health?

[http://sustainablepulse.com/2014/02/19/roundup-linked-
global...](http://sustainablepulse.com/2014/02/19/roundup-linked-global-boom-
celiac-disease-gluten-intolerance/)

[http://www.alternet.org/food/meet-controversial-mit-
scientis...](http://www.alternet.org/food/meet-controversial-mit-scientist-
who-claims-have-discovered-cause-gluten-sensitivty)

[http://www.gmwatch.org/index.php/news/archive/2013/14764-com...](http://www.gmwatch.org/index.php/news/archive/2013/14764-comment-
on-critique-of-samsel-and-seneff-glyphosate-review)

Here are some that refute the above: [http://www.examiner.com/article/bogus-
paper-on-roundup-satur...](http://www.examiner.com/article/bogus-paper-on-
roundup-saturates-the-internet)

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar-haspel/condemning-
monsan...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar-haspel/condemning-monsanto-
with-_b_3162694.html)

[http://ultimateglutenfree.com/2014/02/does-glyphosate-
cause-...](http://ultimateglutenfree.com/2014/02/does-glyphosate-cause-celiac-
disease-actually-no/)

------
cpncrunch
The article claims that we now have evidence that the gut influences the brain
(rather than just correlation), but the evidence isn't exactly compelling.

GABA doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, so the fact that bacteria in the
gut release GABA won't have any effect on the brain.

A caesarean will be a huge stressor, and cortisol in the mother is known to
affect the brain of the child, so why do they think the bacteria was causal in
making these changes when they didn't actually do any controlled tests for the
bacteria?

Similarly for autism: we know the brain is different, so it seems more likely
the brain changes are causing the changes in the gut bacteria rather than the
other way around, as we know for certain that brain changes will affect the
gut (stress), but there is no evidence that gut bacteria can make these kind
of changes in the brain.

~~~
Lambdanaut
> GABA doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, so the fact that bacteria in the
> gut release GABA won't have any effect on the brain.

Yet tons of people take it as a supplement regardless. Maybe it's just
placebo?

I feel like we should hold out judgement on this. I wouldn't be surprised if
GABA somehow affected us in other ways even if it doesn't get into the brain.
But yes, as far as we currently know, it shouldn't affect our mental
performance.

~~~
cpncrunch
Any pill you take to improve your performance or health will have some sort of
placebo effect. Whether it has any actual effect over and above placebo
requires a double-blind RCT. As far as I'm aware, there is no evidence that it
has any effect over placebo, and the science says it shouldn't.

People take all sorts of dubious supplements...

~~~
undersuit
What pills should I take to get the most positive placebo effects?

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hoopism
My daughter is 17 months and recently diagnosed with Autism. For the first few
months everything was bout getting a diagnosis so that we could begin therapy
asap.

Since then I have spent more time trying to see what some of the research
suggests in terms of biological and genetics causes. There's a huge community
out there experimenting with their children's diets and exposing them to a
number of vitamin and drug therapies. I haven't been sufficiently convinced
that the risks of many of these therapies outweigh the reward. We did start
her on a gluten-free diet (she has digestion issues and gluten intolerance
runs in my family) but only because it wasn't risky to try.

I don't really KNOW anymore than I did before my daughter's diagnosis... but
the lack of substantial research in some of these areas is concerning as a
parent. I can understand why a parents may seek to implement some of these
drastic changes to help their kids... but I fear that we know so little that
it may cause more damage.

~~~
djokkataja
Have any doctors been recommending these kinds of dietary changes to you?

~~~
hoopism
No.

Our pediatrician is not a developmental specialist but is of a similar mindset
that there is just not enough evidence to support a lot of the mind/gut
theories. Same goes for the metal toxicity and vaccination links. She's not
dismissive of diet having a link, but does not feel the risk in the more
extreme cases is worth it.

She also mentioned that many families experience a great deal of stress as a
result. Autistic kids can be difficult when it comes to feeding (textures and
sensations can be an issue)... so introducing more restrictions causes the
family to have to spend more time on diet and potentially more effort in
getting their child to eat... Everyone gets more stressed.

That would all be worth it... if it was clear it was effective. Unfortunately
often times it turns a difficult situation into a more stressful environment.

We deal with many other specialists but they are mostly physical and speech
specialists... they are by no means trained in dietary issues.

I find a lot of the information out there overwhelming. There's no shortage of
claims (both from doctors and parents). It's tempting to latch on to cutting
edge studies... but sadly very few have very comprehensive studies.

------
flavor8
Making your own ginger beer using a starter that you maintain (google "ginger
bug") is an easy way to get into DIY probiotics.

And, the book "The Art of Fermentation", which promotes fermenting beverages,
vegetables, etc using wild yeasts and generally yielding foods with various
Lactobacillus, is a fantastic read.

------
jhulla
It seems there are people who are DIY fecal transplants in the hopes of
addressing various maladies and illnesses.

[https://www.google.com/search?q=diy+fecal+transplants](https://www.google.com/search?q=diy+fecal+transplants)

~~~
1qaz2wsx3edc
There are some links/searches on the internet I don't want to click. This is
one of them.

I have no problem with others looking at this, I think it's probably great,
but for me this is where I nope out.

~~~
josefresco
While you have been down voted for expressing your "nope" opinion. I think a
proper way to handle this would be to add some sort of warning/tag before
posting links to content which may shock/offend etc.

~~~
pessimizer
It's a google search. Warning people that searching for 'fecal' on google
might return discussions of feces is unnecessary in my opinion.

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hliyan
More importantly, article also mentions that Caesarean births, due to non-
exposure to maternal vaginal microbes, might result in lifelong mental health
changes.

~~~
jmnicolas
It's not the first time I read about this.

Both my sister and I were born through a cesarean birth and we both suffer
from depression. Nothing really bad in our lives to justify these depressions.

Here is my sample of 2.

~~~
return0
me and my brother do not suffer. n=4

------
nashequilibrium
Anybody here has done first hand experiments on themselves care to comment?

~~~
dlss
I'm the CEO of GeneralBiotics.com, we sell a probiotic created using Human
Microbiome Project datasets (our CTO did his postdoctoral work there).

The product is not a DIY FMT, but serves a similar function (restore missing
aggregate metabolic pathways).

Personally, from generation 1 of our product onwards I've felt considerably
less stressed, more upbeat/happy, and haven't had diarrhea (I have IBS-D, so
that's a huge one for me personally). Our pilot study has offered us
preliminary confirmation of this, so we're paying for a 200 person placebo-
controlled follow up study.

Early versions did have hiccups, but IMO gas is FAR preferable to diarrhea.

I don't personally think DIY is worth the risk, as there are a lot of things
you'd absolutely need to screen for if you're considering that route (see
[http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/776501_4](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/776501_4)
for a minimal list). I think you should also screen for mental disorders,
stress disorders, mood disorders, etc. Basically anything known to be
correlated with the microbiome at minimum.

Assuming you've screened for those things (which is to say basically a pro-
level FMT), I think it's basically safe -- there are a lot of FMT procedures
performed every year with minimal side effects.

#include disclaimer: obviously not medical advice, etc, etc

~~~
lunarcave
Very Interesting. I'd be willing to give a go, but I don't think you ship to
my country.

~~~
dlss
Alas. Shipping microbes across borders is a tricky business.

It takes about 30 days to get a decision one way or another, we are
prioritizing lawyer time using the wait list:
[http://eepurl.com/5qS9z](http://eepurl.com/5qS9z)

~~~
deskamess
I signed up and curious how high Canada is on the list... I see a lot of
pro/pre biotic products in the store so it is certainly not banned.

Another question... what is your take on the fecal transplant process and do
you ever think it could end up in a "pill format"? Are you aware of any such
pills in the North American market?

------
83457
My wife was a psychology major at Marymount University like 15 years ago and I
joined her for a talk by a researcher who was promoting the idea that vitamin
deficiencies affected mental illness. It has been a long time so I don't
remember the details. I just recall specifically that throughout the whole
talk everything sounded straight forward, evidence was intriguing, etc and
then at the end someone asked how many other psychologists look at vitamin
deficiencies, who else is doing research, etc and he said he was the only one
he was aware of that did so. Was very surprised. I wonder how much that has
changed over the years.

------
Energy1
Any studies being done on sinus related problems? Nasal cavities are hard to
reach to deliver medication or to just flush the debris out. Nasal bacteria
that fight/feed on mold/fungi?

~~~
toddh
Silent GERD can be related to sinus problems. Acid irritates the sinus and
sometimes the ears. Some think the use of antibiotics brought on their
problems so it makes sense to think tending to your gut biome might help.

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mjklin
In _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_ the author stated that his son
suffered from stomach aches and was told it was a sign of possible mental
illness. This was back in the 70s, but could there be a connection?

~~~
toyg
The stomach is well-known to suffer from problems when stress levels are high
(nervous gastritis etc), something that mental health problems usually produce
as side-effects.

Here they are claiming _microbes living in intestines_ (which is a different
thing) actually _cause_ mental illness. It's a very different thing.

------
return0
My mental health is much much better than my gut bacteria's (based on the
horrible stuff that i feed them). Just my n=1.

------
ganzuul
The intestinal lining contains a large portion of the bio-available
serotonergic compounds. That gluten & related grains cause inflammation of the
intestinal lining is gaining notoriety.

There may be hope that a drop in wheat production leads to a drop in mental
health issues.

~~~
ars
Do you think there are more mental health issue now, or 500 years ago? (I
don't mean active untreated cases, I mean cases that occur.)

You might be interested to know that it wasn't that long ago that humans
typically got up to 80% of their calories from wheat in the form of bread.

Today it's about 30-40% (in the US anyway).

So there ALREADY has been a _huge_ drop in wheat production. If anything it
might be time to reverse that, not extend it.

PS.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seitan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seitan)
is quite yummy, it's almost pure gluten and is a wonderful source of
vegetarian protein.

~~~
ddebernardy
Note that we're not eating the same wheat as our ancestors though:

[http://authoritynutrition.com/modern-wheat-health-
nightmare/](http://authoritynutrition.com/modern-wheat-health-nightmare/)

~~~
ars
The differences are tiny, and they ate white flour back then too. I don't
agree that most wheat was sprouted - before refrigeration this would just
cause the flour to spoil.

That article did not exactly strike me as very credible. It basically took
every single possible thing it could find and included them, no matter how
credible or not credible the source.

People will look for any excuse to justify their behavior. But really gluten
is perfectly fine for 99% of people and saying "the wheat changed" does not
change it.

Yes, the wheat did change, but the differences can hardly be enough to say
"that's the cause of mental health issues".

