
Judge Sentenced to 28 Years for Selling Kids to the Prison System (2013) - emhart
http://blog.blacknews.com/2013/05/judge-mark-ciavarella-sentenced-selling-kids-prison-system101.html?m=1#.U_tBa_mwIZ7
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jacquesm
What really really bugs me about this case is _how little money he got_. I
mean, come on. Judges earn a pretty good living, this guy sold his soul and
thousands of real people for a bit over a million. Incredible. I can see how
some people might be tempted to do something as bad as this for 100's of
millions (they obviously still should not do it, it is just as bad in every
other way). But a mere million dollars for the lives of thousands of people?
That makes a human life worth < $1000 per head to this judge.

I have similar feelings about how cheap politicians are to bribe.

~~~
click170
What really bugs me is that we're all focusing on the judge, not about the
fact that there are for-profit prisons. Is that not going to lead other judges
to the same corruption over time?

To me, the idea of a for-profit prison is just backwards, there should never
be an incentive for them to incarcerate innocent people, and if it is that is
a symptom that the system is broken.

~~~
jacquesm
Oh, absolutely. But this case is against a judge, someone normally beyond
suspicion. If a judge says 'a' and you say 'b' it's 'a'. For a person in a
position like that abuse trust at this scale is absolutely incredible (well,
no longer incredible I guess, it happened).

The US prison system is rotten to the core, there is no doubt about it but
this is one is beyond what I ever considered possible, even in the US system
as it is today.

I'm trying to imagine how the approach would have gone. Hey Judge, how about I
give you some money if you send more inmates (children maybe?) my way?

The expected answer is "How about you end up in jail yourself", not a
discussion of terms.

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spacefight
There must be monentary incentives somewhere else too, otherwise the US
wouldn't lead the world on the list of imprisoned population:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcerat...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate#United_States)
(juveniles not in the list)

~~~
mcv
There's certainly more monetary incentives. Some private prisons have an
agreement with a state where the state guarantees a certain numberof inmates.
So even if crime were to stop, the state would be legally requires to fill up
those prisons. So there's very little incentive to prevent crime, and a lot to
lock people up for fairly minor offenses (like owning a small amount of pot).

Police departments are also often rewarded based on how many people they get
locked up, rather than how much they reduce crime. So there's little incentive
to pursue hard-to-prove crimes (like rape) and lots of incentive to lock
people up for minor but easy to prove charges, or even charges for which it's
easy to fake evidence.

~~~
admax88q
"state where the state guarantees a certain numberof inmates."

That does not sound true at all. Source?

~~~
Someone1234
It isn't untrue but they are mischaracterizing it.

The current agreements state that a certain % of the prison will be occupied
and the state will pay $x/prisoner/day.

Now what you have to consider is two things; first "what happens if the %
isn't met?" simply put the state pays for "virtual prisoners" between the
actual % and the agreed upon % (e.g. 100 non-existent prisoners will be paid
for as if they existed).

So it isn't like the state is going to go roaming the streets and picking up
random people for littering just to meet the % just because the contract says
to. It still ultimately saves the state money to be below capacity as they can
sit right at the agreed upon lower % indefinitely (plus other costs for
prisoners are still met by the state: like transportation, medical, and so
on).

Do I think private prisons try to promote laws which lock more people up? Yes,
absolutely I do. But I don't think the % minimums within private prison
contracts are a massive problem, and are only there to give both the state and
the private prison more consistent financial obligations. It actually /looks/
worse than it is in this specific case.

However the private prison industry is a blight on the US and the US legal
system is pretty well broken at this stage (e.g. innocent people pleading
guilty because they cannot get real representation and it would bankrupt them,
plea deals which are immoral, prisoners testifying against each other for
reduced sentences (which incentivise lying, politics playing too large a role,
money playing too large a role, mass corruption at every stage, etc).

~~~
icebraining
_Now what you have to consider is two things; first "what happens if the %
isn't met?" simply put the state pays for "virtual prisoners" between the
actual % and the agreed upon % (e.g. 100 non-existent prisoners will be paid
for as if they existed)._

Not to mention that if there are public and private prisons in the same state,
they can always move them.

------
rdebeasi
The New York Times has more detailed coverage of this case:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/28/us/28judges.html?_r=1](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/28/us/28judges.html?_r=1)

[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/books/review/kids-for-
cash...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/books/review/kids-for-cash-and-the-
injustice-system.html)

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spacefight
I wouldn't be surprised, if this judge is just the tip of a very large big and
still floating iceberg.

~~~
revscat
This iceberg is still there, and it is right in our faces. The drug war has
made a lot of people very, very wealthy at the expense of millions of first-
time drug offenders who have been slapped with punishments far outweighing
their crimes.

------
buf
I am disgusted at how little time he got.

He knows the full extent of what he is doing, as he is a judge. As a person
who has seen what prison can do to a person, I feel this is unjust.

~~~
fixermark
There's very well an argument to be made that this level of subversion of the
United States's legal system should really be considered to rise to treason.

If you want to kill a nation, shake people's faith in the function of its
legal institutions.

~~~
spacemanmatt
In this modern context, a terrorism prosecution seems appropriate.

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billmalarky
I remember this guy. I'll never forget this short video that came out during
the case. It does a really good job of portraying just how despicable this
man's actions were.

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8JRMGP2hg8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8JRMGP2hg8)

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marcinx27
I'm from the area that was under Ciavarella. I remember being in middle school
and having him say in an assembly "If you get in a fight, you're coming to me
and you're going away. Miss too much school, you're coming to see me and
you're going away."

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patrickg
I am always astonished (not in the positive meaning) by the length of theses
sentences. The maximum sentence in Germany is 15 years (except for a life long
sentence for murder, which could be longer).

(disclaimer: I am a volunteer/part time judge)

Edit:

I'd like to add that I will not comment in public whether I think the sentence
is appropriate or not, as I don't ever want anybody in a trial to accuse me of
a biased opinion, although I highly doubt that anyone of "my" indicted people
will ever read HN.

~~~
phpnode
What do you think would be an appropriate sentence for a crime like this?
Society's most vulnerable betrayed by society's most trusted.

~~~
Karunamon
As someone who's fundamentally opposed to prison for white collar crimes like
this, I could suggest:

* The felony record he's going to have for the rest of his life

* Massive monetary fine, to be automatically garnished from (and only payable by) any wages earned, leaving him with the equivalent of the local minimum wage until the fine is paid.

* Permanent banishment from any kind of justice system work, even as far as being a janitor in an administration building.

* Community service, on the order of weeks/months of time for each person who was unjustly sentenced.

~~~
Bud
* Felony record? He's an older, privileged white male. The only substantive effect on him will be loss of voting privileges.

* Only payable by wages earned? He's already earned a lifetime's worth of money. Why are you opposed to taking the money from his bank accounts, his house, and his net worth? Seems to me you're trying hard to put up a shield for the wealthy.

* Cynical to suggest permanent "banishment" from the justice system. I doubt there was much danger of him being appointed a judge again.

So. Why are you opposed to prison for white-collar crimes?

~~~
Karunamon
Background figures into a lot more than employment and voting, for one.

I hadn't considered his current financial situation - I'd be perfectly okay
with taking his net worth for damages.

 _In case it wasn 't blatantly fucking obvious, this was a list of ideas, non
an exhaustive compendium of possible penalties!_

Cynical? It's an assurance that he never ends up in a position to do this
again.

I'm opposed to prison for white-collar crimes because I see prison as a place
for segregation from society when there is no other option; specifically for
violent and dangerous criminals. I don't see how locking this guy up serves
any kind of justice other than the poetic type.

------
Fastidious
It should be noted that this is a year old news.

~~~
splintercell
And that only 3% of our prison population is in private prisons.

~~~
CoachRufus87
That's 68,000 people. A lot of people.

~~~
sschueller
It's more. Corrections Corporation of America alone has "90,000 offenders and
detainees"[1]

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrections_Corporation_of_Amer...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrections_Corporation_of_America)

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architek1
Original article from Reuter's in Aug 11,
2011.[http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/11/us-crime-
kidsforca...](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/11/us-crime-kidsforcash-
idUSTRE77A6KG20110811)

------
petilon
The real scandal here is the privatization of the prison system. Had the
prison not been a for-profit corporation this kind of thing would not have
happened.

This story shows that some things should not be privatized. Some people (Rand
Paul) believe the Iraq war would not have happened had the US government not
relied on for-profit corporations (Halliburton) for war-related contracts.
See: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-
politics/wp/2014/04...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-
politics/wp/2014/04/07/rand-paul-in-09-cheney-pushed-iraq-war-to-benefit-
halliburton/)

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slowmotiony
What kind of a website is this? A couple of lines for an article, no sources
and some shitty "how to get benefits" ads on the sidebar? Come on now.

------
cmdrfred
If you think the current state of affairs in America isn't a problem you
simply need to look to the above article. Disgraceful, hopefully he dies in
prison.

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owenjones
I'm not a really vindictive person, but I'm so glad this guy is going to jail;
hopefully for the rest of his life.

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thomasvendetta
His sentence should have been longer, but why are we giving this guy any more
time of our day? This happened last year.

~~~
icebraining
Three years ago, actually.

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pan69
Welcome to the world of privatisation. When you privatize institutions which
should be run by the government in the first place (health care, public
transport, prisons, etc..) then you obviously open up the door for all sorts
of corruption since now suddenly all these systems need to make profit.

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_pius
Should have been life.

~~~
cmdrfred
Should of been death really, It should be treason to tamper with the criminal
justice system in a manner that puts innocent people in prison.

~~~
thisjepisje
How barbaric of you.

~~~
fixermark
While it's reasonable to ask whether the death penalty is appropriate even in
cases such as treason, there's a fair case to be made that this level of
subversion of the legal system is treason.

~~~
thisjepisje
Isn't it also clear that the legal system is pretty broken in this case?

Edit: I could be wrong, only judging from 2 articles about this case.

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cyanbane
Is there an aggregate source for sentencing data per state? I understand
sentencing varies per judge and in accordance with state laws, but you would
think this data exists at the state level and abnormalities (like this judges
history?) might bubble up.

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ddoolin
I'm shocked but also feel like I've seen something like this happening before,
or at least some source speculating on it's possibility. Is there a precedent
for this kind of corruption in the U.S? Elsewhere?

~~~
warfangle
Yep, though not as illegally done.

The for-profit prison industrial complex spends millions of dollars lobbying
for lengthier prison sentences.

Every bed they fill is money the state pays them.

Prisons pay politicians to get beds filled for lengthier times, so they can
make more money from the states that convict and send them prisoners. It's a
disgusting immoral racket.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I'm not finding anything online about what money private prison lobbyist spend
on tougher sentencing. Folks claim 'millions of dollars' but this could just
be hot air. Any references?

~~~
warfangle
CCA (Corrections Corporation of America) has scaled down their lobbying in
past years; it peaked in '05 with $3.38m. Since '04, they've spent $2.3
million in campaign contributions and $21 million in lobbying [0].

The GEO group spends much less (but they are global, serving Australia, South
Africa & the UK as well): $1.143 million in campaign contributions and $3.56
million in lobbying since '04 [1].

0\.
[http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000021940](http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000021940)
1\.
[http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000022003&cy...](http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000022003&cycle=A)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Well, lobbying for private corrections is a different animal that lobbying for
harsher sentencing. Without understanding where the dollars went, its hard to
paint them with the evil brush.

~~~
warfangle
The point is, simply by having both 1) lobbying by for-profit corrections and
2) the ability to influence sentencing guidelines with lobbying money create a
significant moral hazard.

They don't even have to specifically lobby for tougher sentencing - they can
just contribute to choice A of [A,B], where A is the candidate pushing for
harsher sentences.

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lasermike026
This is a decent sentence. I hope it sticks. I suspect there is more of this
kind of the thing in the courts. The entire police, prison, and court systems
needs to be disinfected. Reorganize the whole thing.

------
devalnor
I can only suggest you to watch the PrisonValley documentary (2009) about the
prison industry.

[http://prisonvalley.arte.tv/?lang=en](http://prisonvalley.arte.tv/?lang=en)

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boards2x
What's disgusting is that he gets 28 years and not life, or better, death
prbalty. If there was ever a justified reason (ie Israel executing Eichman)
this is it.

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JoeAltmaier
That article is hardly informative. What did he do wrong? Sentence juveniles
solely to a single contracted prison? So were his decisions actually
compromised? Or was it just the kickbacks that are at issue.

There's a sad state of affairs on the internet, where a couple of paragraphs
of slanted commentary are called an 'article'.

~~~
FireBeyond
Given that thousands of juvenile detentions were overturned, it was shown that
he interfered with things beyond a reasonable doubt (though I agree that this
isn't the best article).

For one of the more egregious examples (though there were several things wrong
with this - this was just the last link in the chain) was the extended
detention of a child whose 'crime' was insulting his school principal on
Myspace.

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colinbartlett
Can a mod please add "2013" to the end of this? It's pretty old news.

