

Show HN: Ernie's, Click & Collect Groceries - rsbrown
http://erniesgrocery.com

======
retube
This is an interesting concept. But I see a couple of issues:

\- You need physical stores. These take a lot of money and expertise to set up
and run. And to expand/scale in any meaningful way will take a LOT of money.
Plus of course you've got the added expense of having to actually do the
shopping on behalf of your customers (ie walk round your inventory and fill
the basket). Kind of the opposite to the Ikea model. As Ryan Air have
conclusively proved, people will put up with ANYTHING if it's cheap(er).

\- Your stores are going to have to be as big as a supermarket to really be of
use to people.

And on the competition side:

\- What's the advantage over just ordering my goods online from a supermarket?
I don't even need to go to the store then, they just get delivered to my front
door. Or do supermarkets not do this in the US? IN the UK at any rate you can
choose very specific delivery times as well.

And on the marketing side:

\- 40 minutes in a grocery store? You can easily spend this much time online
filling up your basket. Personally I've never felt that online ordering has
saved me much time. The USP of online shopping is not time saving, it's "when"
saving - I can do it during a quiet time at work for example. But with Ernies
I still gotta go pick it up...

\- 73 hours per year? Doesn't sound like much to me. And walking round the
store is healthier than sitting in front of your PC :)

~~~
rsbrown
Good feedback, I appreciate it.

 _"You need physical stores"_ : Sort of. We need physical _warehouses_. The
core of the Ernie's business model is that these locations will be _much_
cheaper to operate than the traditional grocery storefront, therefore
increasing net margins. They will take expertise to operate; luckily, this
expertise is well-established and readily available.

 _"Your stores are going to have to be as big as a supermarket"_ : Not
necessarily. Our SKU count will have to be big enough to be compelling. But
Trader Joe's has proven that a very low SKU count can still be compelling if
the value proposition is there. Trader Joe's value prop is low prices. Ernie's
is convenience. On top of that, we're cramming our SKUs into a warehouse
layout. Our real estate footprint will be much, much smaller than a
supermarket.

 _"What's the advantage over just ordering my goods online... ?"_ : The
advantage is in the operations model. Home delivery will always be a much more
expensive grocery offering. This results in some combination of fees and/or
higher prices. _Ernie's is not price premium offering_. No fees. It's
_cheaper_ for us to sell the same can of beans to you than it is for Safeway.
Much less than a home delivery offering.

 _"40 minutes in a grocery store? / 73 hours per year?"_ : We'll just have to
agree to disagree on these points. Those folks that hate wandering around the
grocery (or have small children, or are physically challenged, or have better
things to do with their time) are who we are marketing to. I, for one, look
forward to getting 3 days of my life back every year. :)

~~~
retube
Thoughtful responses. I am looking at this from a very UK perspective, so much
of what I've said maybe (and indeed sounds like it is) not relevant to the US.
Over here UK supermarkets have matured their online businesses very well. It's
no more expensive than in-store and delivery is free to cheap depending on how
narrow a delievry window you can handle. Plus of course the US is much larger
geographically and much more car-focused, so it might be a much more viable
business model.

Either way - it's a big project. Good luck!

~~~
rsbrown
As I've done research for Ernie's, I have been extremely impressed with what
the UK grocers have accomplished (led by Tesco). If I had to pick a single
grocery supply chain as our "gold standard" to emulate, it would definitely be
Tesco.

~~~
tooba
I'm in the UK and would love click and collect groceries. Shopping online is
the easy bit. Waiting around for a two hour delivery window is the problem
especially when I drive past the store on the way home.

Something like Ernie's would be ideal. It'd even be worthwhile for collecting
a few day to day items. I'm surprised Tesco hasn't done this already.

~~~
JonWood
Where do you live? If you're in East London you might want to give
hubbub.co.uk a try (disclaimer: I'm there lead developer).

We do really good food, 1-hour delivery windows, and same day deliveries for
no extra if you order before noon.

------
rsbrown
We are actively seeking additional investors to help us open our first
location. We have commitments from local investors that have us 25% towards
our fundraising goal. I have yet to seriously pitch any investors outside the
mid-south, which is one of my reasons for posting here on HN. I would dearly
love to give my brief investor pitch to anyone seriously interested in the
concept.

The consumer value proposition is covered in the video linked above. The
business value prop boils down to this: double-digit net margins. Seriously.

I can be reached at scott@erniesgrocery.com

------
wccrawford
I hope you manage to run with this. I'm sick of wasting so much time in the
grocery store and I've been willing to pay to avoid it for a while now. Of
course, there are some requirements:

Excellent interface. I have to be able to browse your selection as easily as I
can browse in a store. This means I can find things I didn't intend to find.
(That's good for you and me, both.)

Fast service at the curb. There's no point in saving the time inside the store
if I just waste it sitting in the parking lot.

Reliable time estimates. (Actually, this dove-tails with the last one, doesn't
it?)

Selection. I know you said you have selection, but I've yet to find 2 stores
that had the same selection. I'm not terribly set on brands, but it does
matter sometimes.

Stock. As in, things had better be in stock. Nothing makes me angrier than
when the store is out of something I need. Yes, not even long lines.

Deli/Bakery/etc. When you've just dealt with a shopping trip, you don't feel
like cooking that night. Bringing home something delicious and/or hot is a
must.

And you should seriously consider delivery, and not just curb-side. I know
it's a logistical nightmare, but it eliminates 2 of the things above quite
neatly.

I also love the possibilities for the store itself. Because the customer never
enters the store, all the standard storefront stuff is eliminated. You can use
portable tablet registers to let the customer pay, and standard shopping carts
are eliminated. You can use whatever is most efficient, or even invent
something to make it better. And you can start off with people plucking things
from shelves, but it may become economical to have robots doing that. (I
believe Amazon does that, but they're pretty big and centralized.)

In short, do it right and you'll make me (and a lot of other people) really
happy.

~~~
rsbrown
Spot on, my friend. To highlight a few items:

"Excellent interface"

We have built a streamlined interface that is uniquely designed to handle
grocery shopping. We believe that there is a fundamental difference in
shopping for groceries online and the way we shop for other consumer
merchandise (such as clothes or books). Being fast, intuitive and discoverable
are the overarching goals.

"you should seriously consider delivery"

At a later date, perhaps. "Logistical nightmare" is absolutely right. When/if
we do delivery, I want to treat it as an outsourced add-on priced at/near cost
(which will still mean a hefty delivery charge in low population density
areas).

"I also love the possibilities for the store itself"

Absolutely. In addition to your suggestions, consider the long-term
opportunities related to merchandise packaging and private label goods.
Customers are no longer walking the aisles making buying decisions based on
physical packaging. The right packaging/private label strategy (think Trader
Joe's on steroids) could eventually lead to some amazing gross margins.

~~~
billybob
Actually, I like the fact that this _isn't_ delivery. I would expect to pay
more for that, and driving to the grocery store would be no big deal if I
didn't have to go in.

One thing that could make things speedier would be something like an RFID tag
in my car that gets scanned as I enter the parking lot, so you'd know what
customers were about to pick up their groceries. (You'd have to carefully
consider the privacy implications for people being tracked elsewhere, though.)

~~~
openczun
Having worked with warehouses and warehousing systems, this is actually a real
problem.

A normal non-refrigerated warehouse can pick items (grab from the shelf) well
in advance of the "pick up" time for carriers, so orders are ready to go when
the truck arrives.

In Ernie's model, it becomes a challenge having items ready when customers
arrive, yet minimize the amount of time perishables are out of refrigeration.

This could be addressed a few ways : 1\. Asking the customer roughly when they
expect to pick up their orders 2\. Staging orders in refrigerated and non-
refrigerated sections for quick final assembly at pick-up 3\. A mechanism like
you've described to give some advanced warning to the warehouse.

Very interesting stuff indeed -- I'm envisioning some wicked cool cross and
upselling opportunities with punchfork.com's API.

~~~
rsbrown
Option number 2 is what we have planned. We have been working with a warehouse
engineer that worked for a failed grocery delivery service. Note: it was
delivery that killed them, not the challenges of warehouse management.

------
oldgregg
I like the concept. My wife used to work for plumgood food in nashville and
the infrastructure build out seemed really expensive... seems like you may be
able to avoid that with this if you partner with a local grocery store so you
don't have to manage inventory. I would start there and put all my focus on
creating a killer shopping experience online-- there are a lot of intangibles
of just cruising through a grocery store that have to be rethought when you
take it online. Best of luck!

~~~
rsbrown
Thanks! I have actually been working with some of the principals from Plum
Good (including Eric, the CEO) on the Ernie's concept. I've learned a lot from
their experiences.

------
yock
I think this works well for processed foods and non-perishible items, but I
see a real problem with meat and produce.

Shoppers are accustomed to doing their own quality control when shopping for
fresh items. In a real grocery store it takes real effort to choose the best
meat and produce from what's available, and that decision might just be to not
purchase something. Do you intend to provide this as part of your service? If
so, what controls will you have in place to guarantee quality?

~~~
rsbrown
Granted, not everyone will want to shop at Ernie's. Our plan is to stay
focused on our target market: anyone who values the time-savings, convenience
and quality above everything else.

(also, anyone who doesn't relish picking veggies that have been handled,
sneezed on and who knows what else by the hundreds of other shoppers that came
through the supermarket before you)

------
edw519
I love that you're going after a market so ripe for disruption, appreciate
your coming to Hacker News for feedback/community, and I wish you the best.

But I think you have it backwards...

The real problem is _not_ the time spent in the supermarket, it's getting
there and back. You're addressing the wrong issue.

Many people want their groceries delivered for all kind of reasons:

    
    
      - They have small children they don't want to take with them.
      - Weather.
      - Traffic.
      - Health issues, elderly, shut-ins, etc.
      - They don't have a car.
      - They work and can only go the same time as everyone else who works.
      

On the other hand, if they are going to the trouble of driving all the way to
the supermarket, then they might as well go inside:

    
    
      - to examine and choose their own produce
      - to examine and choose their own meat
      - to examine and choose specials (which can be done well on-line)
      - to handle and compare similar items
      - to consult with the butcher/deli manager/etc.
    

The negative attitude of employees you cite in your video has never been an
issue for me. The only real issue has been the check-out lines: there are
never enough, the lines are too long, and they are expensive to operate.

If you are seeking large amounts of investment, why don't you just attack the
real problem: getting out of the supermarket without waiting in line. All the
necessary technology is already available. I just want to fill my cart and go
home.

Please don't become another Webvan. Take that money and leverage current
technology to eliminiate check-out lines in _existing_ supermarkets forever.
_That's_ what people really want.

We don't need more infrastructure. We need better use of technology in
existing infrastructure.

Bar codes dragged us that industry into the 20th century. RFID can drag it
into the 21st.

~~~
dmix
Completely agree. I never had a problem with rude checkout staff and I found
that this site stressed that very heavily.

The reason I use Grocery Gateway (our local online grocery store w/ delivery)
is because I live in a city and don't need a car. So I get all of my non-
produce stuff delivered.

It's $8 for delivery vs a $15 taxi + the time it would take for me to get
there and back.

~~~
rsbrown
Keep in mind that you are a patron of a niche offering. I'm happy that it
works well for you, but grocery shopping still sucks for the vast majority of
shoppers in the United States. Ernie's aims to address that need.

~~~
DanielStraight
I'm wondering on what you base the claim that grocery shopping sucks for the
"vast majority" of shoppers. Honestly, I can't remember a single time in my
life someone has complained to me about grocery shopping.

~~~
nolemonplease
I don't really hear people complain about grocery shopping either.

 _But_ there are countless times where I've needed to do some serious grocery
shopping, and I plainly just don't feel like going to the store. I've avoided
the grocery store for weeks, because I just don't enjoy being there. And I'd
rather spend that time doing other things. Which, is my problem, yeah, but if
someone is offering a solution...

------
brianbreslin
Here in Miami we have these drive through convenience stores called Farm
Stores. They just recently rolled out FarmStores.com which lets you order
online, then schedule a pickup, and roll through and get your stuff. Very
convenient, the $5 service charge I could do without, but still convenient.

The concept of only having a limited set of distribution/pickup points makes a
ton of sense, much cheaper than home delivery. You are effectively offloading
2/3 of the delivery cost to the customer themselves.

Things I think this could miss out on: \- Impulse shopping \- higher margin
items added \- psychological benefits of grocery experience (ooh that'd be
tasty, let me buy that).

fascinating marketplace to be in IMO. I'd pay not to have to wait 10 minutes
in the deli counter for some sliced turkey.

~~~
camtarn
That's what upsell ads are for ;)

"Why not treat yourself? Instead of Own Brand Generic Turkey Slices why not
try Bernard Matthews' delicious Wafer-Thin Turkey Slices, with meat from free-
range turkeys, for only 20c?" "Having a BBQ? You bought barbeque sauce - what
about some premium BBQ sausages and a chef's hat to grill in style?"

------
nihilocrat
Here in Montreal (perhaps also in other large cities) I can order groceries
online from any of the major supermarkets and have them delivered to me (mind
you, I don't have a car) for a reasonable minimum order value and a mere $2-3
extra. Maybe you are intentionally not targetting these cities, otherwise the
idea is not really new at all.

You want to see a grumpy clerk? Go to Switzerland and forget to put the little
sticker on your bags of produce. Damn.

~~~
halostatue
Italy, too. I didn't know that's what we were supposed to do when we went into
a supermarket to buy a couple of peaches (or something) on vacation last year.

------
eggbrain
I'll be honest, I'm skeptical. And I'm sure investors are skeptical too after
spectacular failures like WebVan and Kozmo.

Sure these sites were different than what you are trying to accomplish (Online
--> Deliver to your door vs Online-->Pickup at local store), but they still
have similar problems. Groceries operate at razor-thin margins, and being a
warehouse of food will only take you so far (just ask WebVan). How do you know
if your "Ernies" associate will pick a ripe apple vs a bruised one? How can
Ernies be "friendly" if all the interaction is ordering online/pickup at the
store?

The biggest question for me is, what is to stop the competition from
implementing this if it sees initial success? Order online --> Pick up at
store already exists for many types of businesses, if Meijer or Publix or Acme
Grocery co sees success, they'll probably add this to their options, at a much
easier cost than you will (as they will already have retail stores). What
competitive advantage can you use that can fight against this?

~~~
ghotli
The competitive advantage I see is rooted in the background of the individual
corporations. The user interface involved is the dealbreaker and I generally
have little faith in large, culturally non-software companies getting user
experience right.

------
dugmartin
A chain here is Western Massachusetts does this:

<http://www.bigy.com/bigy2go/>

It works pretty well and we use it a few times a month. The problem we have is
that shopping online is like ordering at a closed stack library - browsing the
aisles in person lets you see deals for similar items.

------
cliftonmckinney
You might consider hitting up Angel List if you haven't done so already. If
you're trying to raise for that first store - "proof of concept" before you go
after more funds - it seems that might be a good avenue to raise those funds.
Good luck to you!

Edit: it will probably help a lot that you've already got a portion committed,
btw.

------
bentoner
We already have this in Australia:

[http://www.colesonline.com.au/wcsstore/ConsumerDirectStorefr...](http://www.colesonline.com.au/wcsstore/ConsumerDirectStorefrontAssetStore/images/catalog/Click&CollectPages_v04/Click&Collect_Melbourne_Brunswick.html)

~~~
rsbrown
Indeed, there's also Chronodrive in France: <http://chronodrive.com>

And soon there will be Ernie's in the U.S.A.

------
colinsidoti
It's a location thing. A number of stores have tried this by me, but only one
has really pulled it off. People often use it for their big family orders that
are well upwards of $100. In general, the place also has better prices than
other stores. There are repeat customers, but shopping online certainly
doesn't account for the majority of their grocery store runs. That said, the
place constantly has a line of cars with huge orders being loaded into their
trunks. Never small orders.

Make sure you're in an area that's largely populated by families, and make
sure your prices are already good.

------
rnernento
I like it. One think to take into consideration is people's relationship with
food. It's going to be a hard sell for some people to buy produce or meat
sight unseen when selection can have a huge effect on quality.

That being said I think you could build a really interesting interface. Also
tremendous overhead savings, no cashiers, baggers, carts, storefront.
Basically just a refrigerated warehouse and limited staff.

Awesome.

------
peteretep
I'm at work, and so don't really want to watch the video, so I'm going to ask
directly:

What does this give me over Ocado (or their many many many competitors - I
mean, Asda deliver?!), who I order from, and then they deliver? This sounds
like it just adds an extra step of my having to show up, rather than just
agreeing that I'll be sat at home in my PJs watching Jeremy Kyle at the right
time...

~~~
cjrp
From the video, it seems like the main advantage is cost. Then again I happily
pay the £50 (or whatever it is) for my unlimited Ocado pass, to avoid having
to own a car in London, take the time to pick up the groceries, etc.

~~~
JonWood
Where abouts in London are you? You might like to take a look at Hubbub
(www.hubbub.co.uk). Depending on where you are the most you're going to pay
for delivery at the moment is £3.50, which includes same day deliveries, and
we deliver from proper food shops, rather then a soulless warehouse filled by
the lowest bidder ;)

~~~
dotBen
Forgive me but one of the main benefits I saw with Ocado when I lived in the
UK was that deliveries were fulfilled from a Waitrose distribution center,
rather than a store.

That means fresher food then what is available on Waitrose's shelves. For
people who are not primarily cost-sensitive (ie Ocado/Waitrose shoppers)
that's a significant advantage.

In fact I don't see any advantage with a store-fulfilled solution - the
overheads are greater because the good had to be delivered from the
distribution center to the store and put on the shelves, and there is a risk
that the store picker will give me food with the shortest sell-by date to
encourage stock rotation (Sainsburys do that all the time).

I can see in your instance that you are trying to offer fulfillment from
independent retailers and so I guess your USP is that they are offering more
unique food I can't get elsewhere - but I think that's a tough sell to make it
worth my while to buy from you when most of my needs can be met from Waitrose
via Ocado.

------
massarog
Who made your video on the homepage? It is nicely done.

------
jmjerlecki
I think its an interesting approach setting up physical storefronts. Has this
been thought about as a "drive-thru" add-on for existing grocery stores
managed by the ernie's software? I think the number one use case is the quick
trip – I need milk, eggs, bread etc. on my way home for breakfast tomorrow. I
think this is really neat and I wish you complete success.

------
flurie
Sam's Club has been offering something like this for at least a few years by
my recollection.

[http://www.samsclub.com/sams/pagedetails/content.jsp?pageNam...](http://www.samsclub.com/sams/pagedetails/content.jsp?pageName=howToCnP)

------
paraschopra
This is one of the ideas that make you kick yourself and say _why did I not
think of it first?_

Good luck to you and I hope it succeeds!

