
Tuv sees black for Tesla: Cybertruck would not get approval in Europe - the-dude
https://www.en24.news/2019/12/tuv-sees-black-for-tesla-cybertruck-would-not-get-approval-in-europe.html
======
yreg
There is no way this vehicle will get approved in Europe. I don't think the
design is even salvageable. The folded stainless steel unibody goes
fundamentally against our expectation of both passenger and pedestrian safety.

Since virtually no one drives gigantic american-style pickups in EU, it makes
no sense for Tesla to develop a separate alternative EU-regulation-compatible
version based on totally different manufacturing design.

I think it's pretty dishonest that Tesla asks for deposits for Cybertruck over
here, since I believe they don't plan to ever sell them to us.

And I'm saying that as a person who likes Tesla, Inc. very much.

~~~
nimbius
I know this is a little pedantic but this article reads like a trainwreck to
start with.

>According to a TUV expert

for anyone reading this outside Germany, thats a Technical Inspection
Association. pretty vague as to what it does in the 21st century pertaining to
vehicles specifically
though...[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technischer_%C3%9Cberwachungsv...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technischer_%C3%9Cberwachungsverein)

>because the inmates were not safe.

the nearly unilaterally agreed upon english definition for an inmate is not
the same as passenger.

>sees black

in english, seeing black is a finance colloquialism at best. at worst, its a
pejorative for racist tendencies. im guessing its a different sentiment in
Germany entirely.

>Nothing is deformed in the event of an impact, instead enormous forces act on
the occupants," says Teller in the "Automobilwoche". "Airbags will no longer
help."

This is wildly speculative conjecture based on a single marketing event. No
technical authority would ever dream of basing their evaluation on it...unless
you wanted to get your name in the press alongside a hot new vehicle.

The concept we're trying to get at here is called a crumple zone. Tesla S,
tesla 3, and virtually every other mass produced vehicle on the planet have
them as part of a standard safety requirement. There is no reason to propose
teslas new truck would not include them.

The article also completely ignores the long standing tradition of safety
approval for bullet-proof vehicles. Mercedes G500 and BMW 7 series fitted with
rigid armour plating and bulletproof glass are all approved for use in the EU
and US. As for unibody vs body on frame construction, youre wrong. body on
frame vehicles cannot BY DESIGN have crumple zones to protect pedestrians, and
often score lower on crash tests as a result.
[https://autoreviewhub.com/unibody-vs-body-on-
frame/](https://autoreviewhub.com/unibody-vs-body-on-frame/)

~~~
pasabagi
>in english, seeing black is a finance colloquialism at best. at worst, its a
pejorative for racist tendencies. im guessing its a different sentiment in
Germany entirely.

Are you a native speaker? I've never heard 'seeing black' said in a racial
sense. It is however colloquially used (in the UK at least).

I think it's also an idiom in German (my wife, a German, uses it often). Also
not in a racist sense - also simply meaning, to 'see nothing good about'
something.

~~~
ksaj
Indeed. I thought "seeing black" simply means "profiting," especially after a
period of being "in the red."

Eg: a company might "hope to see black by then end of Q3."

So the headline baffled me.

------
kayoone
> Because passive safety and pedestrian protection are very important in
> Germany. The body must therefore be designed in such a way that it
> deliberately deforms in an accident and absorbs the energy of the impact in
> order to minimize injuries.

This is exactly what I was wondering about the minute I saw the Cybertruck
presentation. In the event of a crash, the stiffness would be horrible for
people in or outside of the vehicle.

~~~
accurrent
Wonder how firefighters/paramedics would try to extricate casualties from a
cyber-truck in the event of an emergency. Usually the standard practice
involves tearing the vehicle down.

~~~
dharmab
Vehicles with gull-wing doors have doors that automatically detach after a
rollover crash since they cannot be opened if the vehicle is upside down. A
similar emergency release could be used?

------
vasco
There's a clip of Elon driving one in public roads and the truck is so large
that while performing a left turn it bumps over a cone in the center lane.
It's really a massive car, just crazy to picture it in a regular road in most
European cities.

The video:
[https://mobile.twitter.com/langejanne/status/120377531270789...](https://mobile.twitter.com/langejanne/status/1203775312707895299)

~~~
sschueller
5.88m, longer than a Chevi suburban or a Ford excursion.

------
rikkipitt
Sounds like my father talking about his Land Rover series IIA: "The crumple
zones are cunningly built into the other car.".

------
cygned
I am wondering how you get out of it in case of an accident. I’d expect Tesla
to take precautions, but at this point in time it seems like people could get
seriously trapped in there.

------
et2o
This baseless speculation is rather silly until it’s closer to actual
production. We have no idea how it will do in crash testing. It’s not hard to
imagine they’ve taken engineering steps to help with this. Tesla has an
excellent record in crash testing with the Model S, X, and 3; in my opinion
they deserve some benefit of the doubt.

~~~
chris_engel
A for-profit company never deserves some benefit of doubt. Thats why we have
and need all those regulations.

~~~
perceptronas
You make it sound like customers don't care about safety. If company will
deliver better customer satisfaction they will get more profit. If anything I
would trust a for-profit motive more than a feature forced by regulations.

~~~
ProblemFactory
Very few customers care about _pedestrian_ safety, and pedestrians can only
control what sort of cars other people buy with regulations.

~~~
perceptronas
I would argue that more innovations and overall safety for passengers
increased more due markets than it did due regulations. While it might not be
the priority, but more pedestrian safety is still a nice thing to have.

------
grecy
Given that Tesla have designed and currently sell the three safest vehicles
ever produced in the history of the world, I think it's safe to say they
thought a little bit about crash safety on the Cybertruck.

In fact, I'm willing to bet they thought about it a hell of a lot more than
people speculating who were not involved in the design process.

let's wait and see what happens, rather than through out wild speculation.
(but then, the internet would be pointless I guess)

EDIT: See my reply further down with links to all the safety records Tesla
have set.

Also, my point still stands. It's almost a certainty Tesla have spent many
millions of dollars and thousands and thousands of design hours on the safety
of the Cybertruck, while literally everyone commenting on it (including this
expert from Europe) has spent zero.

~~~
masklinn
> Given that Tesla have designed and currently sell the three safest vehicles
> ever produced in the history of the world, I think it's safe to say they
> thought a little bit about crash safety on the Cybertruck.

What's your evidence for this extraordinary claim?

IIHS rates the model S as acceptable to good, the model 3 rates good across
the board and is a top pick _alongside dozens of others_ , and with six
vehicles above it for year 2019. IIHS CRO stated unambiguously:

> I don’t think that our results bear out that it’s the safest car ever

Going with EuroNCAP instead and looking at just 2019 large family car[0] the
model 3 does stand out in "safety assistance", it's on par for occupants and
non-occupants, and widely beaten by the BMW Series 3 in that latter category.

[0] [https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-
ra...](https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-
ratings/?selectedClasses=1201&allProtocols=false&selectedMake=0&selectedMakeName=Select%20a%20make&selectedModel=0&selectedStar=&includeFullSafetyPackage=true&includeStandardSafetyPackage=true&selectedModelName=All&selectedProtocols=34803&allClasses=false&allDriverAssistanceTechnologies=false&selectedDriverAssistanceTechnologies=&thirdRowFitment=false)

~~~
grecy
The three vehicles (S, X, 3) by the NHTSA (look at the graph of the best 50
cars they have ever tested)

[https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-3-lowest-probability-
injury...](https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-3-lowest-probability-injury-any-
vehicle-ever-tested-nhtsa?redirect=no)

Model X first and only SUV to get 5 starts from the Euro NCAP:

[https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-x-earns-5-star-safety-
ratin...](https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-x-earns-5-star-safety-rating-euro-
ncap?redirect=no)

Model X first SUV to get get 5 stars in every category from NHSTA:

[https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-model-x-5-star-safety-
ratin...](https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-model-x-5-star-safety-
rating?redirect=no)

Model S best safety rating of any car ever tested:

[https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-model-s-achieves-best-
safet...](https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-model-s-achieves-best-safety-
rating-any-car-ever-tested?redirect=no)

Quote from Euro N-Cap themselves: "The stand-out performer of this round is
undoubtedly Tesla’s Model X, scoring 94 percent for Safety Assist, the same as
the Model 3 scored early this year. _This makes the two Teslas the best
performers in this part of the assessment against Euro NCAP’s most recent
protocols_ "

[https://www.euroncap.com/en/press-media/press-
releases/best-...](https://www.euroncap.com/en/press-media/press-
releases/best-in-class-battle-heats-up-in-latest-batch-of-results/)

I could keep Googling... I'm sure there's an award they got for one of the
vehicles being the first ever to get 5 stars in North America AND Europe. I
think it was the X or the S.

~~~
masklinn
> Model X first and only SUV to get 5 starts from the Euro NCAP:

It's not even the only SUV to get 5 stars _from 2019_ :
[https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-
ra...](https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-
ratings/?selectedClasses=1197&allProtocols=true&selectedMake=0&selectedMakeName=Select%20a%20make&selectedModel=0&selectedStar=&includeFullSafetyPackage=true&includeStandardSafetyPackage=true&selectedModelName=All&selectedProtocols=34803,30636,26061,24370,1472,5910,5931,-1,14999&allClasses=false&allDriverAssistanceTechnologies=false&selectedDriverAssistanceTechnologies=&thirdRowFitment=false)

You managed to out-shill _tesla 's own marketing copy_, your link merely
states that it got 5 stars from NCAP and outlines points they think are of
interest. At no point do they state it's the "first and only SUV" to get 5
stars from either NCAP or NHTSA (they do state it's the first and only SUV to
get 5 stars _in every single category and sub-category_ which is an impressive
claim but much less so than your statement).

> Quote from Euro N-Cap themselves: "The stand-out performer of this round is
> undoubtedly Tesla’s Model X, scoring 94 percent for Safety Assist, the same
> as the Model 3 scored early this year. This makes the two Teslas the best
> performers in this part of the assessment against Euro NCAP’s most recent
> protocols"

I don't know if you can't read the quote you provide or you don't remember
your original statement: this praises _safety assistance_ , it doesn't say
that it's "the […] safest vehicles ever produced in the history of the world".

> I could keep Googling…

Yes I'm sure you could keep shilling, and, frankly, lying.

I don't even understand why you keep doing that, Tesla absolutely does get
impressive results and are at the top of the pack, had that been your
assertion that would've ben fine, and would have supported your point
(regardless of your point being somewhat off from the article's explicit
concerns about _pedestrian_ safety on which Tesla scores are generally good
but in the low 70s where other cars manage 80s and even the rare low 90s for
the Z4[0] and the CLA[1]).

[0]
[https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/z4/38091](https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/z4/38091)

[1] [https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/mercedes-benz/cla-
class/...](https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/mercedes-benz/cla-class/38093)

~~~
grecy
> _they do state it 's the first and only SUV to get 5 stars in every single
> category and sub-category which is an impressive claim but much less so than
> your statement_

If it's the first and only SUV to get 5 stars in every single category and
sub-category.... doesn't that make it the _safest ever_ , by ver definition?

If not, why not?

Also it's odd you use the word "claim". There are no "claims" here, there are
factual safety ratings by independent government bodies. The NHTSA is not
"claiming" it gets 5 starts in every category and sub-category, they are
factually stating that it does. It sounds like you're trying to use language
to make facts seen less like facts and more like opinions. Please don't do
that, it's very dishonest.

~~~
masklinn
> If it's the first and only SUV to get 5 stars in every single category and
> sub-category.... doesn't that make it the safest ever, by ver definition?

Ah I see we've gotten to the "moving the goalposts" part of your refusal to
ever acknowledge your lies.

> Also it's odd you use the word "claim".

I fail to see how, though not being a native speaker I'm sure there are better
synonyms available.

> The NHTSA is not "claiming" it gets 5 starts in every category and sub-
> category, they are factually stating that it does.

The subject of the phrase is Tesla not NHTSA. NHTSA gave Tesla the score,
Tesla states the score they got, it's a claim.

> It sounds like you're trying to use language to make facts seen less like
> facts and more like opinions. Please don't do that, it's very dishonest.

I guess we can tack on a complete lack of honour to your repeatedly
established lack of honesty, and with that I'm done with this "discussion".

------
anotheryou
Well if the outer layer does not deform that's not generally bad, no? It could
still crumple behind that and the structure could move like scales when hit on
the edges. I'd guess it depends a lot on whats underneath, after all it's not
an exo-sceleton (or is it?).

edit: thanks for the replies. I somehow thought if you get hit as a pedestrian
it's super bad anyways... didn't know the crumple zone does much for you
there.

~~~
yreg
>if the outer layer does not deform that's not generally bad, no?

it is generally very bad for the person who gets hit by the car

~~~
kinghajj
Does it make much difference if a car can crumple or not when it's hitting a
sack of flesh? I don't think my skin and bones are going to stand up well in
either scenario.

~~~
zwaps
Honestly, have you seen a rigid car hitting a crumply car going full force?

In a situation where maybe both would have survived otherwise, now at least
one party is goo.

It's a Prisoner's Dilemma. If everyone drives fat, rigid SUVs, I gotta do to.
That's why there is a law

~~~
ZeroGravitas
I agree, but you can also crash into concrete walls and bollards where you'd
want a crumple zone.

A crumple zone in an EV is pretty simple though, since you don't have to worry
about the heavy engine getting shoved into the front passengers.

I'm not sure why it's such a popular notion that the cybertruck won't crumple?
It's literally got a big empty space at the front as a feature.

Ordinary cars crumple but they don't fall apart if you lean on them or drive
down a bumpy road. They have strength in some situations and specially
designed failure modes in others.

It could be as simple as putting some scores in the metal so that it folds in
a particular way when sufficient force is applied.

~~~
masklinn
> I'm not sure why it's such a popular notion that the cybertruck won't
> crumple? It's literally got a big empty space at the front as a feature.

Because it's supposed to be bulletproof and have a virtually indestructible
surface which you cannot dent or scratch. It's possible that this was meant as
nothing more than resistance to minor assault but taking the statement
literally and assuming a completely rigid reinforced frame makes a lot of
sense.

> Ordinary cars crumple but they don't fall apart if you lean on them or drive
> down a bumpy road.

Ordinary cars are not billed as bulletproof and virtually indestructible.

~~~
viraptor
> bulletproof ... cannot dent or scratch

Different properties. Bulletproof vests are flexible and distribute the force
rather than being just hard and heavy for example. Diamonds are scratch
resistant, but shatter.

Until we see the actual tests, it's all just speculation with minimal
information. Resisting a hammer does not prove anything about collisions.

------
ashildr
So the article basically says that it will be interesting to see what Tesla
comes up with to give this car passive safety for passengers and pedestrians.

Given the fact that the rest of Teslas fleet has excellent ratings in that
regard Ì‘m quite sure that this concept is not exactly new for their
engineers.

I‘m again not impressed by TÜV.

------
krilly
Is this article computer translated from the German source? It seems like it's
barely even been proof read.

~~~
flopp
The article seems to be a "translation" of
[https://www.n-tv.de/auto/Cybertruck-bekaeme-in-Europa-
keine-...](https://www.n-tv.de/auto/Cybertruck-bekaeme-in-Europa-keine-
Zulassung-article21457784.html)

~~~
yorwba
That explains the strange usage of "sees black":
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schwarzsehen](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schwarzsehen)

~~~
mkl
Also "the inmates were not safe"!

~~~
tempodox
LOL! They probably meant “passengers”.

------
chrisseaton
> While the launch of the electric pickup proudly demonstrated that even a
> strong blow with the sledgehammer does not leave a dent on the car door,
> this would pose a security risk in Germany.

A _security_ risk?

~~~
detaro
I suspect mistranslation from the German "Sicherheit", which can be translated
as "safety" and "security". The translation generally seems pretty bad.

~~~
tastroder
Yeah, all mentions of "Sicherheit" in the linked source (which is just a
mainstream news channel transcribing some car magazine interview btw) would
best be translated with safety, rather than security.

------
webpraktikos
I think the plan is to release cybertruck at the same time when fully-
autonomous driving is predicted to be ready. In that scenario, it would be
significantly less likely to crash and cybertruck wound be safer car than the
ones with different materials, but dumber.

The key to safety is human error prevention, not materials. It’s like
preventing illness vs. treating the symptoms.

On the other side, It’s very questionable when the fully-autonomous driving
will be ready.

------
Tepix
I wonder when we will see laws for pedestrian safety in the US. What are the
arguments against such a law?

~~~
Gwypaas
No need for them when jaywalking is a crime. Just blame the pedestrians and
call it social darwinism.

------
megous
Looks like a SVBIED to me. Maybe Musk got inspiration from ISIS.

Do an image search for "svbied".

------
the-dude
Just a couple of minutes ago, this article was on #2, now on #19.

It must have been flagged or triggered something.

------
Giorgi
title should read: TUV seeks so somehow justify its existence

------
_trampeltier
This car is of course not build for europe or asia. Here are also almost no
large pickups like Dodge Ram or the F150. A friend had for a short time such a
car in switzerland. It was fun, but just to large for any public parking and
such. But yeah the european companys don't even have small electric cars, so
they just complain about everything.

~~~
foepys
> But yeah the european companys don't even have small electric cars, so they
> just complain about everything.

I don't know where you got this idea. Renault makes the Twizy and the ZOE,
both small electric cars. BMW makes the i3.

~~~
solarkraft
While the i3 is pretty much discontinued, BMW has more EV plans for the
future. The Nissan leaf and Hyundai Ioniq also sell pretty well in Europe.

The automotive press is traditionally very biased against electric vehicles,
which might have contributed to this article.

