
How “Legal” Are Seed Libraries? - nkurz
http://www.postcarbon.org/article/2339769-just-how-legal-are-seed-libraries
======
nickthemagicman
WTF?! Didn't realize this was even a thing.

Honestly reeks of agribusiness lobbying.

Seeds are a fundamental requirment for human existence and should be free to
sell, save, use, give away.

Next thing you know water will cost $15.00 a gallon and only be sold through
authorized sources like Monsanto and Coca-cola for "QUALITY CONTROL" purposes.

~~~
freehunter
To me it didn't sound like lobbying, but laws that didn't take into account
that people might give away seeds for free. It's a good law for knowing that
the seeds you buy are good quality, but poor for centralized community seed
exchanges, which are a pretty new thing. In the past you would just go to your
neighbor and get some seeds (which is still legal).

~~~
mmanfrin
It's not legal to get seeds from your neighbor if your neighbor is using seeds
with any patented genes (a la Monsanto Soy beans). In fact, if seeds from your
neighbor's field _are blown over by the wind_ to your field, and you harvest
those, you can be sued for patent infringement. Monsanto has done this and
won. They even (in)famously hired Academi (nee Xe nee Blackwater) to find
'patent violators'.

~~~
freehunter
>Monsanto has done this and won.

Well that's just not true.

[http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/10/18/163034053/top-
fi...](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/10/18/163034053/top-five-myths-
of-genetically-modified-seeds-busted)

~~~
thaumasiotes
According to your link, seeds from Schmeiser's neighbor's field were blown
into his field by the wind, he harvested them, and was successfully sued for
patent infringement. So everything your parent comment stated was correct.

There is an element omitted, which was that he harvested those seeds (in
accordance with his established business practice of keeping seeds from his
field) in the knowledge that they were Roundup resistant, since he had sprayed
his field with Roundup to see what would happen, and what happened was some of
his wheat lived.

Roundup isn't patented or controlled in any way. So what would happen if I
took up the hobby of growing a few patches of wheat every year and spraying
them with Roundup? Over time, the magic of selection should produce Roundup-
resistant wheat, which would be free of any Monsanto influence. Would I be
violating Monsanto's IP?

If you think I wouldn't be violating Monsanto's IP by growing, and selecting,
my own Roundup-resistant wheat, take note that Schmeiser didn't do _anything_
I didn't describe myself doing in the thought experiment.

~~~
freehunter
He wasn't sued because the seeds blew into his yard. He was sued because he
collected the seeds and grew nothing but those seeds, even knowing what they
were.

>Schmeiser didn't do anything I didn't describe

Yes he did. He didn't develop his own Roundup resistant seeds, he grabbed them
from Mansanto plants.

>the magic of selection

It doesn't work like that. What you would end up with is years of nothing but
dead plants until you get bored and forget about it.

I don't want to defend Mansanto, but you're being ridiculous. This argument is
repeated over and over and it's just not true.

~~~
thaumasiotes
Sorry? That is precisely how selection works. Ever heard of herbicide-
resistant weeds? Desirable crops can develop resistance the same way weeds do
(that is, by coincidence).

The additional "action" you ascribe to Schmeiser is purely metaphysical. In
the thought experiment where I grow wheat as a hobby, I do the following:

    
    
        1. Purchase, and grow, wheat seeds, not from Monsanto.
        2. Spray my wheat with freely-available Roundup.
        3. Harvest and replant whatever happens to survive.
    

There's also an expected step

    
    
        4. Purchase additional non-Monsanto wheat in the case where I don't get any seeds in step (3).
    

Step (4) is just a repeat of step (1).

There are two things we can say about Schmeiser:

1\. Schmeiser took steps 1-3 above.

2\. Schmeiser didn't do anything other than steps 1-3 above.

There was reason to believe that they'd work for him faster than they would
work for me. But all of his actions were unquestionably above-board. What
produced the ruling against him wasn't anything he did -- it was something his
neighbor did.

Consider a different scenario. Schmeiser, the eccentric farmer, decides to
devote a patch of his land to independently developing Roundup-resistant
wheat. He does exactly what I described, seeing little success. Three years
later, his neighbor starts purchasing and planting Roundup-ready wheat.
Schmeiser continues to do the same thing he's been doing for three years. Is
it now illegal?

~~~
freehunter
>That is precisely how selection works. Ever heard of herbicide-resistant
weeds?

And if you want to bet your farm on you being the one to magically find
Roundup resistant wheat, you go right ahead. But no farmer is going to do
that. and Schmeiser certainly didn't.

You want to argue, go argue with the judge who heard all of the facts. But
please, don't spread false information like "Monsanto sues farmers for
accidents". It's not true.

~~~
thaumasiotes
You seem to have reworded "Monsanto will sue you for your neighbor's pollen
blowing into your field" into "Monsanto will sue you for accidents". We know
they didn't sue him for using Roundup, because Roundup isn't controlled
(rather, it's controlled in the normal way, by charging money for it). We know
they didn't sue him for harvesting and replanting his own wheat, because,
again, that's legal.

------
smsm42
I think this is crazy that people are prohibited from giving away things that
belong to them - and to avoid opening a can of worms, we're not even talking
about drugs or something like that - because of bunch of government busybodies
worrying about imaginary dangers that never happened like terrorists putting I
don't even know what in the seeds.

I wonder what if they would one day discover that there are millions of people
on internet giving away code which is then being used in most critical
infrastructure projects. By their logic, they should ban all open-source
projects until they undergo rigorous (and hugely expensive) compliance
testing. And cyber-terrorism is a real threat too! So I hope they don't read
HN, would not want to give them any ideas...

~~~
mindcrime
_So I hope they don 't read HN, would not want to give them any ideas..._

Seriously, don't give the nanny-state, collectivist, big-gov, we-need-more-
regulations crowd any more ammunition or ideas! That crowd of kooks do enough
harm on their own, no need to help them.

------
conradfr
There is the same problem in Europe, I think it has even already been posted
in HN. I guess it's the same lobby that got success on both sides of the
Atlantic.

[http://www.saveourseeds.org/en/dossiers/eu-seed-
regulation.h...](http://www.saveourseeds.org/en/dossiers/eu-seed-
regulation.html)
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_Kokopelli](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_Kokopelli)

------
driverdan
> Agri-terrorism is a very, very real scenario

No it's not, especially in this scenario. Anyone who espouses this BS should
be removed from their position.

------
Houshalter
Has anyone commenting actually read the article? Giving away seeds isn't
actually illegal. This is overzealous law enforcement and hopefully won't
stand up in court.

The regulations for selling seeds may be unreasonable, but they are at least
understandable.

------
tlrobinson
So what's the BitTorrent equivalent of a seed library? (no pun intended, but
amusingly apropos)

~~~
flavor8
r/seedswap on reddit.

~~~
1qaz2wsx3edc
Risky click of the day...

------
sharemywin
Here's Ohio's laws I don't have access to me email to login at work:

[http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/907](http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/907)

------
Tyrant505
Dumb question.. How long are seeds able to be preserved without a (reup?)

~~~
Retric
In theory thousands of years. [http://www.non-hybrid-
seeds.com/VAULTlongtermseedstoragesyst...](http://www.non-hybrid-
seeds.com/VAULTlongtermseedstoragesystem.html)

In practice you lose more over time so it greatly depends on how many you
start with. However, you could encode the DNA in another format which
effectively means unlimited shelf life assuming you a reasonably close species
to work with.

[http://genetics.thetech.org/original_news/news129](http://genetics.thetech.org/original_news/news129)

~~~
smsm42
Another format would actually be a problem - finding a format that would be
readable in 10K years is a huge challenge, since all current languages,
semantic systems, etc. may be completely forgotten by then. Check out this
one:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Interference_Task_Force](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Interference_Task_Force)

about trying to solve how to say "dangerous radiation" so people in distant
future would understand. Not trivial task at all.

~~~
Retric
Persionaly, I suspect a scale model of a DNA strand + it's encoding would be a
strong enough hint for any society capable of using that data to build a life
form. As up you only need 4 symbols for the encoding. Then just repeat that at
ever smaller scales.

The real issue is you need to encode a lot of data in a stable form for a long
time for cheap enough someone would pay for it. Pluss, the cost of actually
sequencing 10K+ plants * a few examples so you have some genetic diversity.

------
lotsofmangos
Is regulated standards for foods pushed to the logical position from a
bureaucratic standpoint, but mindbogglingly insane position from a biological
one, that all inputs to the system must be on the official list of defined
things, otherwise the entire process of insisting that we know what is going
on falls down.

------
noonespecial
"After the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture cracked down on a community
seed library, hundreds of seed libraries in the U.S. are suddenly wondering if
they are breaking the law"

Sadly, the answer to this question these days is nearly always yes, no matter
what you are doing. You are pretty much one overzealous act of selective
enforcement away from federal crime. 3 felonies a day and all that yap. Do
remember that sensationalist stories aside, its exceedingly unlikely to happen
to you. Not that we shouldn't try to fix it, but its not worth worrying about
to the point that it alters your daily life with paranoia.

------
tomphoolery
The fact that this is at all illegal is a testament to the shitty situation in
the United States with regards to both intellectual property and food
production. I'm ashamed of my country, and my state, because of this.

------
A_COMPUTER
Can someone explain to me how you commit agri-terrorism with unregulated
seeds? What is the government's argument for this?

