
Sleep Is the New Status Symbol - misnamed
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/08/fashion/sleep-tips-and-tools.html
======
FabHK
Leisure as a status symbol of the upper classes is nothing new though - it's
what's required for the Good Life according to Aristotle, and it's long been
the aspiration of the English upper class: a marker of nobility.

The famed Keynes biographer, Robert Skidelsky (The Right Honourable Lord), has
an intriguing book with his son, Edward Skidelsky: _How Much Is Enough? Money
and the Good Life_.

Starting point is an essay by Keynes from 1930, _Economic Possibilities for
Our Grandchildren,_ in which Keynes predicted that 100 years from then,
economic progress would have improved productivity and real incomes so much
that everyone (in the developed world) would only have to work 2 days a week
and be free to enjoy their leisure otherwise.

Now, it's still a few years until 2030, but it doesn't really look like that
prediction will come true - and the book is an examination on why.

Makes you think. (And sleep. And take time off :-)

[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/books/review/how-much-
is-e...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/books/review/how-much-is-enough-by-
robert-skidelsky-and-edward-skidelsky.html)

~~~
mseebach
Keynes was right on the fundamental analysis, but wrong on how much people
appreciate the luxuries that the extra money from working three days more than
you need to can buy (plus, something about the satisfaction that many people
derive from working). Most people lower middle class and up could easily get
by on 2/5 of their current salaries _if they made the necessary adjustments to
their lifestyles_ \-- including moving to a low-cost probably non-urban area.
But that's simply not an attractive proposition to most people.

Now, of course, there's a chicken-and-egg thing going on where two-day-jobs
largely aren't on offer, but I'd argue that's largely because there just
aren't that many takers. Especially in IT, especially if you're above-average
successful, it's conceivable that you could find and negotiate a two day a
week remote position -- but even among the population that probably could do
that, it just doesn't seem a lot are, or are even trying.

~~~
dikdik
There's very few people that would not be deep in poverty if they only
received 2/5 of their wages.

I spend 1.25 days a week working just to afford rent (roommates, very crappy
construction, no AC, no central heat, semi-decent area... ie can't find
anything cheaper unless I were to add at least 2 hours to my commute every
day).

These are the types of comments I just can't relate to on HN. I do not have
many luxuries in my life (due to lack of funds) and I know I'm hardly doing
poorly in modern America.

~~~
mseebach
You're confusing not being able to with not wanting to. You seem to live in a
high rent area: that makes sense if you're optimising for career/lifetime
earnings - but in this hypothetical you're not, you're optimising for leasure
time.

Adding two hours to your commute matters less when you're only doing it twice
a week. Also, anyway, I'll bet that you can buy food for a week on less than
0.75 days wages. You could, if you wanted to, if five days of leisure a week
was actually your life goal, most likely make a number of changes and achieve
that. But it's not going to be a life of very many modern luxuries.

People on two days a week will generally be (money) poor, but they can live,
and have a lot more leasure time. But that's the point: they don't want to,
they want luxuries more, and that's fine.

Remember that Keynes was writing a century ago: two days a week can buy you a
decently comfortable 1910s life, but that looks a lot like poverty today (you
mention your lack of AC and central heating - well, Keynes never had any of
that) - _because we 're spending our money on luxuries rather than leisure
time_.

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pavlov
Donald Trump claims to sleep 4-5 hours per night. According to reports, he
also watches cable TV news for several hours every day (including Sean
Spicer's press conferences -- which is a strange thing for a president to do,
as the whole point of having a press secretary was to free the president's
time to do something else than meet the press).

Perhaps Ivanka could convince him to watch less TV and sleep some more...? An
article equating sleep with status symbols is certainly a good start.

~~~
dohertyjf
Some people honestly just need 4-5 hours of sleep. I used to work for Zillow
and their CEO Spencer only sleeps 4-5 hours a night. It's all he needs and all
he's ever done, according to people who have worked for him for a long time.

But these people are the exception not the rule. I think the reason they tend
to be successful is because they are up before everyone else and have time to
get a lot accomplished before they are thrown into the day with everyone
else's schedules pulling on them.

~~~
coldpie
> I think the reason they tend to be successful is because they are up before
> everyone else and have time to get a lot accomplished before they are thrown
> into the day with everyone else's schedules pulling on them.

Whenever the daydream talking point "what superpower would you have?" comes
up, my answer is to not require sleep. I love sleep and I get seven to eight
hours of it every night. But imagine what you could do with another _eight
hours_ of waking activity every single day. I think you're right that people
who can get by on less have an advantage. But I'm not one of 'em.

~~~
rubber_duck
I'm not experienced in this but from what I've read you could just take stuff
like modafinil and sleep way less while being productive longer so it's not
really a daydream scenario - there will probably be trade-offs but it's
achievable.

~~~
germinalphrase
The "4-5 hours a night" story is so prevalent among government and business
leaders that I've always assumed that they are A) lying, or B) medicating to
reduce their sleep needs.

President Obama was reported to have regularly taken Modafinil to reduce jet
lag while on international trips. He's also reported to only sleep five hours
a night. Why not just medicate to increase your productivity for a few years?

~~~
dTal
Because Modafinil is a Schedule IV controlled substance, and "I want to be a
productive superman like President Obama" probably won't fly with your doctor?

~~~
germinalphrase
I was suggesting that _he_ was medicating to keep those hours.

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mettamage
That sleep impairs learning is something I notice as well. For someone who
can't sleep well, it feels like a cognitive enhancer. What I find hard to
reconcile nowadays in my life is how to go out with friends, stay up until 4,
wake up at 12 and then go to bed around 11 again (only being awake for 11
hours). When this happens I can be assured that I can't sleep well, but I have
to go to bed around that time to have a shot at getting 8 hours of sleep.

How do other HNers deal with this?

~~~
r00fus
Melatonin. It's considered safe, normally produced by your body and there's
very little tolerance (i.e., diminishing returns over time):

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12546989](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12546989)

~~~
krzyk
Watch out for melatonin, it might cause/increase depression (or depressive
thoughts).

Source: Safety instructions on a box of melatonin pills.

~~~
mettamage
Isn't it also the case that after 3 days of taking it that your body will
produce it less? Or is that not true?

~~~
fb03
That is certainly the case with almost all hormones and compounds that are
produced endogenously when they are supplanted: Down Regulation.

Always take the smallest dose of whatever you need to supplant in your body,
for the effect you need to achieve :-)

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madaxe_again
I think the article is interesting, but the headline is wrong. Sleep _is_ a
status signal, but it isn't new and it isn't positive. Think about how many
idioms and colloquies connect sleep with sloth, licentiousness and shame.

No, the status symbol of sleep is how _little_ of it you've had.

Admittedly it'd probably be harder to sell sleep deprivation than something
that ostensibly helps with the problem.

~~~
bryanrasmussen
Both are status symbols - how little sleep you are getting but still managing
to perform is an often macho status symbol at a certain middle class level.
You are living the life and doing big work on very little sleep because you
are just that tough and smart. wooooo.

however it is only a middle class status symbol. And in quite a lot of middle
class jobs it seems required that you do this to stay in the middle class,
because if you do take the time to sleep how will you keep up with the Jones'

On the other hand if you're poor there is no status symbol associated with
getting little sleep, it is just something you often have to do.

And if you're rich there isn't any need for you to brag about how you stayed
up late on the Andersen case for 4 nights this week, and got that out the door
yeah.

When you're rich you can afford to sleep as much as you want, and that is the
real status symbol.

~~~
B1FF_PSUVM
The really powerful people get a nap after lunch.

~~~
bryanrasmussen
Oh yeah I've totally hacked my sleep patterns with the IRON MAN method!!

------
ivanche
For anyone seriously interested in the nature of sleep (and consequences of
lacking it) this is mandatory read "Good sleep, good learning, good life" by
dr Piotr Wozniak [http://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm](http://super-
memory.com/articles/sleep.htm)

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r00fus
It's important to remember that late night LED screen usage (and overall usage
of high-contrast displays like in tablets and phones) prevents generation of
melatonin which promotes sleepiness.

It's great that iOS/macOS now have night shift (and I've been loving F.lux for
years), but it would be intersting to see how sleep patterns have been
impacted by overall tech adoption.

~~~
LostWanderer
I travel regularly to tribal places! Some of them dont have electricity and
they sleep at around 8pm and wake up early at 5 am. But the people who go to
cities and come back sleep really late! The shift has been very dramatic and
the more technology is adopted there seems to be an increase in discontent in
an otherwise peaceful life.

On a side note: Earlier the tribals used to negotiate when there was a fight
or crime,But once the police station opened the people seem to netgotiate less
and use a third party to resolve the issue

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thinkMOAR
As i understood from a recent trip to Chichén Itzá, Mexico. The maya indians
already had classes where the ones with status only had to sleep drink eat and
watch the stars. So there (and then) it was a status symbol already too.

~~~
Cthulhu_
Everyone needs to sleep, drink and eat, it's just that these guys didn't need
to do anything else. The status symbol in that case is to have no obligations
and a lot of spare time.

~~~
thinkMOAR
What difference do you see in 'obligations' vs 'things you need to do'?

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mark_l_watson
I have been partially retired for almost 20 years, and one of the many
benefits is getting 8 solid hours of sleep every night as well as time for
exercise.

We all need money to live, but also optimizing for leasure time is important.

