
Crush Point: When large crowds assemble, is there a way to keep safe? (2011) - gwern
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/07/crush-point
======
kodis
It's a very long article, and the closest it comes to answering the question
of "is there a way to keep safe" are these two sentences: "Keep your elbows
akimbo, to protect your chest and give yourself enough breathing room. Don’t
fight against the flow of the crowd if you’re trying to get out of it; rather,
go with it, and during lulls try to work your way diagonally through the crowd
to the perimeter. If you feel faint, grab on to someone, and, if you do fall,
try to protect your head."

~~~
IvyMike
> Keep your elbows akimbo, to protect your chest and give yourself enough
> breathing room.

I don't understand this part. Maybe I'm misunderstanding 'akimbo' but what I
see in google image search doesn't seem useful to me:
[https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=elbows+akimbo](https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=elbows+akimbo)

~~~
pacquiao882
"When people die in huge crowd 'stampedes', it's rarely from being trampled,
it's from being crushed and suffocated (while still standing) by densely
packed bodies."

[https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3oqcp4/til_t...](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3oqcp4/til_that_when_people_die_in_huge_crowd_stampedes/)

~~~
evandena
It wouldn't take much to lose that stance and have your elbows pushed inwards.

------
Roodgorf
Alternatively, a Reddit post describing essentially the same thing, but in
fewer words, that is a good read and has some good advice on
avoiding/surviving these situations.

[https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3pcvfb/saudi_arab...](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3pcvfb/saudi_arabia_hajj_disaster_death_toll_at_least/cw5vxtm?context=3)

------
eterm
In case anyone else was like me in wondering what the outcome of the Walmart
case was, it looks like they finally accepted the fine in 2014:
[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/19/walmart-black-
frida...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/19/walmart-black-friday-
death_n_6904604.html)

------
djthorpe
Speaking of Music Festival crowds, having worked at Love Parade a few years
back where there were fatalities due to lack of crowd controls and at
Tomorrowland last year, I was really impressed with the Sendrato bracelet that
Tomorrowland use ([http://sendrato.com/](http://sendrato.com/) ) which can be
potentially used to determine densities of crowds in a particular area, and
allow controls to be put in place before problems arise.

~~~
nosuchthing
Here's a documentary/analysis on the circumstances that led to Germany's 2010
Love Parade disaster:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y73-7lFBNE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y73-7lFBNE)

Basically, exits were blocked off on both ends and the crowd was large enough
that people trapped in the middle were crushed by enough force to led to
suffocation. People attempting to move caused compression waves to ripple
through the crowd which injured hundreds.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Parade_disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Parade_disaster)

------
BillTheCat
The article mentions the Jamaraat Bridge which just a few months ago had it's
deadliest crush yet killing over 2,000 people.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Mina_stampede](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Mina_stampede)

------
LoSboccacc
article is old and problem is older, research is there if you look hard
enough, but until egress and crowd safety gets into building codes don't count
on architects to implement the known solutions

[http://arxiv.org/pdf/0906.0224v1.pdf](http://arxiv.org/pdf/0906.0224v1.pdf)

[http://www.pmcorp.com/Portals/5/_Downloads/Simulation%20of%2...](http://www.pmcorp.com/Portals/5/_Downloads/Simulation%20of%20Pedestrian%20Crowds%20in%20normal%20and%20evacuation.pdf)

~~~
jessriedel
Got a link to any cost-benefit calculations? Every new restriction made
nationwide to the building code undoubtably costs society many millions or
even billions of dollars. (Something like a trillion dollars of housing is
built in the US each year.) I couldn't even find any news stories about people
getting killed by being crushed by crowds in buildings in the US in the past
couple years.

My suspicion is that building codes should be relaxed rather than tightened.

~~~
gwern
I don't think that the necessary changes apply to very many facilities at all.
Maybe a few thousand buildings countrywide need to worry about crowd crushes.
These sorts of crushes happen in predictable circumstances involving hundreds
of people; and there are not _that_ many concert amphitheaters. Or consider
the Jamaraat Bridge - how many crushes is it, by itself, up to now?

~~~
jessriedel
Agree with the general line of reasoning, but I'd guess more people are
crushed by small crowds in the US than large ones, exactly because the low-
hanging large-crowd fruit has been picked. Would need to see some numbers.
It's easy to imagine that changing a concert amphitheaters costs of order a
million dollars, so you're already talking about order billions of dollars
nationwide.

To be sure, less developed countries have all sorts of fixes that ought to be
made.

~~~
gwern
On the other hand, the value of a life is $10-20m these days and a crush or
fire can kill hundreds at a stroke, even in a small venue like the infamous
Station fire. So a single incident could easily go into the billions.

------
ck2
With a phobia of large groups of people, I cannot even fathom how people allow
themselves to get into such situations.

That mecca thing recently blew my mind, they just all crushed themselves to
death and kept going.

The mecca death toll is now near 1500 people I believe. 1500!

~~~
BillTheCat
Imagine there's a place you want to get to along with a lot of other people.

It starts as a nice queue and is pretty orderly but then some people start
pushing in and trying to jump ahead in the line. Other people see this and try
the same thing. If there's no good exit or crowd control then the back of the
crowd slowly pushes against the front until disaster occurs.

People in the back have no idea that there is nowhere to go but they've been
standing for hours and want to keep moving forward.

~~~
ck2
Yeah except for me, the sheer existence of the crowd makes my brain go "avoid
avoid avoid at all costs".

I even go shopping in the middle of the night or very early morning when
stores first open. I don't mind a few people but a crowd will make me turn
around immediately. It is some kind of primal fear to me that shouts danger.

Apparently a great many people don't seem to have that survival instinct.

~~~
Johnny555
It's not necessarily a survival instinct, crowds aren't inherently bad, and
they rarely result in death or injury -- what if the crowd you're avoiding is
the big line for fresh water after a disaster, waiting around until the crowd
dissipates may mean that supplies run out.

------
Floegipoky
"Employees asked the police for help. According to a court filing, the police
responded that dealing with this crowd was 'not in their job description,' and
they left."

Does anyone know if the officers initially on scene here ever faced
disciplinary action?

~~~
PhantomGremlin
I don't know details of this case, but in general the police don't have a duty
to act in specific circumstances. They're more for our overall well being:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-
pol...](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-
not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect-someone.html)

At the risk of being "someone is wrong on the Internet"[1], I'd venture that
the police did not face disciplinary action.

[1] [https://xkcd.com/386/](https://xkcd.com/386/)

------
shabble
Having had some personal experience in hugely dense crowds (like the Edinburgh
Hogmanay Street Party[1]) it does indeed feel exactly like being carried along
in a shoulders-deep irresistible flow of people. There were actually
perceptible currents & flows, areas of turbulence around obstacles, and many
other things that suggest they behave something like a fluid.

Resistance is, as explained elsewhere, extremely challenging. The sheer force
of a column of people and lack of any sort of feedback means it's quite
dangerous and uncomfortable. A friend and I had to rescue several people who'd
fallen and were struggling to get back up, or who were being forced into
obstacles. The solution was to surround them and form a sort of rugby-huddle
that left enough space in the middle for them to get back up or catch their
breath.

They might have better crowd management measures these recent years, but I
haven't been tempted to go back on new years.

[1]
[http://www.edinburghfestivalcity.com/assets/000/000/264/Pack...](http://www.edinburghfestivalcity.com/assets/000/000/264/Packed_Street_Party_-
_credit_Chris_Watt_gallery_detail.jpg?1411140230)

------
Domenic_S
Update on the OSHA vs Walmart appeal case: looks like Walmart finally gave up:
[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/19/walmart-black-
frida...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/19/walmart-black-friday-
death_n_6904604.html)

I guess even the largest retailer on earth can't fight The Man forever.

------
jhallenworld
Immediately this makes me think of nightclub fires. If you are willing to
chance self-induced PTSD take a look at the uncensored videos from the Station
nightclub fire. Crowded nightclubs are deathtraps.

~~~
__david__
Last time I was at a show it was particularly crowded (no seats) and I started
thinking of that video as I stood there waiting for the band. I could see the
3 exits of the venue from where I was standing but I had this sinking feeling
that if something happened there would be no way I'd get to any of them in
time. I could feel a sense of claustrophobia rising and I had to actively put
it out of my mind so I could just enjoy the show.

------
footiethrowa
Related:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster)

------
logfromblammo
On Mythbusters, in their zombie myths episode, the elder duo put their crowd-
crush volunteers in torso-length segments of large-diameter drainage tile, and
had everyone hold their arms up above their heads while attempting to crowd-
crush through a barn door.

It looked like the zombies had all gone broke in the 1920s and were wearing
barrels for clothing.

But no one was apparently injured. So I guess shoppers and concertgoers could
all wear crush-resistant chest armor?

------
amelius
I wonder if tall people have a significant advantage here.

