
My "Ember" Job Posting on Hacker News - floydpink
https://gist.github.com/Blackshawk/5308087
======
Hayvok
Hey all, Jarrod Nettles here (hayvok - OP).

The original code base was in PHP. Very, very terrible proceduralish PHP.
Since we have to continue to maintain the current system while we rewrite we
can implement once and port that code (if necessary) to the new system with
minimal effort.

Could I switch us to Rails? Yes, but I don't see the point. We're a PHP shop
and in my professional opinion (having used both extensively) Symfony 2 is
virtually on-par with something like Rails and switching at this stage of the
game would be project suicide.

* If you're using Rails, and like it - stick with it.

* If you're using a good PHP framework like Symfony 2 or Zend Framework, and like it - stick with it.

You'll be just as productive and successful either way.

~~~
Osiris
I agree. My primary languages are C# and PHP. My C# background heavily
influences the way I write PHP code using heavy OOP principals and even type-
safety (using instanceof) where needed.

I avoid using associative arrays as return objects when arrays of real objects
(or type-safe collections of objects) are better suited.

So I think that you can write really nice code with PHP and a good framework.
It's more about the software architecture than the language.

------
onemorepassword
Sounds like a perfectly normal professional stack to me: solid tried and
proven technology at the foundation for the generic solutions, more hot new
stuff around the edges to optimize for specific cases (and let's face it,
sometimes just for the hell of it).

It's only the inexperienced unprofessional wannabees that bitch about anything
that doesn't use all the cool new toys top to bottom, and try to solve every
problem using the coolest tool instead of the most appropriate.

And the only thing "wrong" with PHP is that it's inelegant and inconsistent as
language. 90% of the people bitching about PHP couldn't put two solid
arguments together.

The argument that it attracts the worst programmers is no longer true since
Ruby's "coolness" started attracting large numbers of less than mediocre
programmers, proving publicly on Github that you can write crappy code in even
the most elegant of languages.

~~~
obviouslygreen
Even if it were true that "90% of the people bitching about PHP couldn't put
two solid arguments together," not only is that irrelevant to PHP's merit or
lack thereof, it leaves a whole lot of people with valid arguments.

Further, "the only thing "wrong" with PHP is that it's inelegant and
inconsistent as language" is your opinion. It is most certainly inconsistent,
yes. It also grows and changes in strange, illogical ways, has a history of
horrendous built-in defaults and security practices (e.g. REGISTER_GLOBALS,
which had a very long life and is likely still enabled on a whole heck of a
lot of servers). There are many reasons to avoid PHP.

There are also reasons to avoid most other languages. I and many other people,
however, believe that PHP is so far ahead on that list as to be a liability in
and of itself.

You're making even more unsupported assumptions regarding what attracts people
to Ruby, and I don't know whether this is false dichotomy or some other
logical fallacy, but "you can write bad code in Y as well as X" says
absolutely nothing about X.

In the end: Yes, if you're careful and skilled, you can probably write solid,
secure code in PHP. However, there are more roadblocks to this pursuit in PHP
than in any other language I've worked with (9 years of experience in PHP, 6
in Python, less in various other relevant languages).

~~~
phereford
Thank you for your reply!

I had written one vaguely similar to yours but ended up not posting it because
i was seething with anger.

I just don't understand how so much vitriol continues to bubble up on HN posts
like these.

------
ebbv
You can tell someone who hasn't had broad professional experience when they
are aghast at the idea of a multi-technology stack like this. The reality is
any company bigger than startup size is going to be using lots of different
technologies for lots of different things, for a variety of reasons. Hopefully
all good but sometimes not so good.

I'm curious about the choices that lead to doing the API in PHP/Symfony as
opposed to Node, though. I've written APIs in both PHP and Node and it seems
to me that Node has the advantage in terms of being more lightweight for the
task. So I'd love to hear what Jarrod sees as the advantages PHP presents that
make it a better fit.

EDIT:

Got the following response to the question on Twitter, for anyone else
curious:

> I have but honestly I'm just not comfortable enough yet w/ Node to a jump.
> :) We're capable and productive w/ PHP. Maybe in time.

So, totally solid reason. :)

------
danso
> _We're rebuilding an internal app from scratch and it needs to be blazing
> fast and real-time._

At risk of dragging the OP into a framework/language war...if you're building
an internal app from scratch...why use Symfony? Is it because the rest of the
Apple internal apps are in PHP/Symfony and it doesn't make sense to have the
internal app group write in different frameworks?

(I'm assuming different languages isn't a huge deal, since the OP mentions
using Ruby to handle deployment)

~~~
rramsay
OP commented here, but didn't respond to you. They most likely went with
Symfony since the original codebase was PHP. Porting to Symfony2 gives modern
MVC web app framework tools and structure but has the same environment
requirements. So there is very little cost as opposed to switching languages.
The Ruby deployment methodology most likely uses Capifony a special extension
to the Capistrano ruby gem for deployment built around Symfony and Symfony2.

------
pdog
_> In my opinion [Ember.js] the best client-side MVC framework out there._

How does Ember.js compare to AngularJS and Backbone.js?

~~~
otikik
It's yehudized.

------
qdog
Interesting. I don't work for quite so sexy a company as Apple, and positions
aren't going to get you working on much hot new tech, so I'm not sure I'd post
"we're hiring". I assume most people here have no desire to work at boring old
companies, hence the "Wtf php? Are you a noob?" type comments.

~~~
epoxyhockey
_I assume most people here have no desire to work at boring old companies_

That's a really bad assumption. It's actually very difficult to find jobs with
established companies because they maintain such a low profile. I wish they
would be better at promoting themselves.

~~~
qdog
Monster.com and the company website usually have a bunch of job listings for
the older companies. If you want to work at IBM, Intel, Comcast, Microsoft,
Oracle, HP, etc. it isn't hard to find job listings. I'm not sure if if
posting on HN is going to attract more applicants for them.

Perhaps those weren't the type of companies you thought I meant, but I work
for a company in that category. If you like c#, c++, or Java and love rain 8
months out of the year, we might have a place for you in Oregon...

------
sudonim
I must've missed the who's hiring thread. I'll tack it on here.

If you want to get in to Ember, we've been using it in production since 0.6.
We'll be actively hiring people pretty soon.

Deets are: We're in Manhattan, NYC. We're a team of 3. Use Ember.js, Rails,
D3.js and a bunch of crazy backend things including custom stuff. Have lots of
paying customers. Lots of money in the bank and we're on our way to be cash
flow positive this year.

My contact info is in my profile. We hire opportunistically so while we're not
actively looking to fill a position, if you'd be an amazing person to join us,
I'd hire you.

------
Morst
+1 for polyglot, but I find PHP in the mix strange though. Is there a reason
why you think PHP/Symphony2 is the best choice?

~~~
Hayvok
See above. :)

------
skeletonjelly
> The thing that amazed me the most - virtually every applicant was downright
> giddy at the opportunity to work with Ember.js full-time.

Of course people want to work fulltime on the latest hotness in javascript.
I'm surprised that you're surprised.

------
riggins
interesting contrast to the recent HN post about how poor the responders to a
'HN: Who's Hiring' post were.

------
auggierose
That job posting couldn't be more boring. You'd have to kill me to get me to
consider that job.

~~~
ovi256
Be careful with that edge, son, you may cut yourself.

