
Neom – an entire new land, purpose-built for a new way of living - renke1
http://www.discoverneom.com/
======
eduren
From their FAQ:

>THE TERM “INDEPENDENT SYSTEMS” IS A LITTLE AMBIGUOUS. WHAT EXACTLY WILL THE
PROJECT BE, A FREE ZONE, TRANSIT ZONE, ETC.?

 _The project will be developed within a specialized zone, independent of the
Kingdom’s existing governmental framework, excluding sovereign laws, in
regards to taxation, customs, labor laws, and other legal parameters
pertaining to business. As such, a zone within an independent system gives
industry the ability to manufacture and provide, goods and services at
globally competitive prices._

>WHAT DOES “EXCLUDING SOVEREIGN” MEAN?

 _“Sovereign laws” refer to everything related to the military sector, foreign
policy, and sovereign decisions – all of which will remain at the government
of Saudi Arabia’s discretion._

Yeah, that'll be a no from me dawg. It's certainly an interesting project, but
I doubt it will draw the kind of international appeal they are hoping for.
Dubai 2.0 basically.

~~~
jstanley
Agreed. The only thing interesting about the project would be the opportunity
to live somewhere that doesn't have traditional attitudes towards having a
military, dealing with foreign countries, etc.

Completely uninteresting otherwise. Just go to any trendy city.

Where's my libertarian utopia??

~~~
cannonedhamster
Depends, which version of libertarian do you believe in? The ultra-right
libertarians that align with Christian conservatism and the prepper ethos
or...uh...the ones who are big on Porcupines. I think the first group far
outweighs the second group as a voting block. If the former I'd say the U.S.
is right what Ted Cruz and the Tea Party crowd want right now. Environmental
regulations, social safety nets, and public institutions are getting rolled
back so that taxes can go down. Texas seems to be a hotbed for this. If you're
for the latter, New Hampshire is probably okay, but you'll still get quite a
few of the former.

~~~
jstanley
I'm a lowercase-l libertarian, not a right-wing American trying to avoid the
stigma.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism)

~~~
cannonedhamster
I'm not judging either way. My political leanings tend to fall under the frame
of left-libertarianism.

------
jpm_sd
Since the linked site contains almost no information, please read the
Bloomberg article: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-24/saudi-
ara...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-24/saudi-arabia-to-
build-new-mega-city-on-country-s-north-coast) "Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin
Salman announced plans to build a new city on the Red Sea coast, promising a
lifestyle not available in today’s Saudi Arabia as he seeks to remake the
kingdom in a time of dwindling resources."

~~~
whipoodle
Thanks. I was wondering whether this would be some neoliberal hellhole or
something actually interesting.

~~~
pmarreck
Tell me more about this "neoliberal hellhole in the heart of Saudi Arabia"

~~~
ShabbosGoy
Isn't that redundant? Saudi Arabia is the poster child of the Washington
Consensus.

------
jasim
Call it Kinakuta, untangle it from religion and misogyny, have more
universities than mega-malls, and setup a democracy.

"“Perhaps I can make an analogy to Go—though chess would work just as well.
Because of our history, we Kinakutans are well-versed in both games. At the
beginning of the game, the pieces are arranged in a pattern that is simple and
easy to understand. But the game evolves. The players make small decisions,
one turn at a time, each decision fairly simple in and of itself, and made for
reasons that can be easily understood, even by a novice. But over the course
of many such turns, the pattern develops such great complexity that only the
finest minds—or the finest computers—can comprehend it.” The sultan is gazing
down thoughtfully at the Go board as he says this. He looks up and starts
making eye contact around the room. “The analogy is clear. Our policies
concerning free speech, telecommunications, and cryptography have evolved from
a series of simple, rational decisions. But they are today so complex that no
one can understand them, even in one single country, to say nothing of all
countries taken together.”" \- Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon.

------
L_Rahman
Since the person behind this project is the sovereign of a nation-state,
perhaps they should build a new way of living in their existing cities and
society.

A good place to start would be enshrining basic civil liberties and not
bombing civilians in a neighboring country.

~~~
derefr
Even a dictator still rules at the whim of the people charged with
implementing their rules. Sometimes it’s impossible to get the power structure
below you to change, even when you can order executions, because the
incentives are broken and will keep installing people with desires contrary to
your own.

The point here, then, might be to build an “insulated” city with a more direct
power structure, without the involvement of consolidated power-bases like
ministries or civic departments. Immigration to the new zone could be filtered
to only allow in people that believe more in the lawful rule of the sovereign
themselves (maybe with something like a democratically-elected governor in
between) than the rule of government as a whole; and then, eventually, a
military et al could be raised from that power-base to convert the rest of the
country to the “new” model.

~~~
L_Rahman
This is a fair response and one that lifts from "disruption" like thinking
processes.

I've made a personal decision however to retreat from "realpolitik" like
political analyses because it requires me to play mind games about the
probable intentions of the decision maker, their constraints, and the possible
outcomes of the decision they made.

Holding people to a set of normative values that I believe to be meaningful
has been a more useful (if more blunt) meta-construct*

* this conversation has me wondering if it might be time to revisit that position

------
checker
It's conveniently not mentioned in the marketing that it's being established
in Saudi Arabia. It will be interesting to see what culture is established
when/if the city becomes legitimate.

~~~
Danihan
100% libertarian, I'm sure.

------
forkLding
But its in Saudi Arabia, excuse me for saying this because I have lived in
Bahrain where certain youtube channels are censored but still considered more
open than other gulf countries, how do you access an open internet in neom?

~~~
microcolonel
Not to mention, if there are any women in your life, they will be treated like
children who must be under the constant supervision of the men in your family.

~~~
rtkwe
So the FAQ does give a little hope for that and stuff like gay/trans rights.

> WHAT IS THE NATURE OF THE JUDICIAL AND REGUL ATORY FRAMEWORK THAT WILL
> GOVERN ALL CIVIL AND COMMERCIAL AFFAIRS IN NEOM?

> NEOM will be the world’s first independent special zone spanning three
> countries, with a regulatory framework designed to adopt world-class
> investment laws that support the livelihoods of residents and the
> development of targeted economic sectors. The special zone will also adopt
> an autonomous judicial system subject to independent regulations and
> legislation, which will be drafted by investors in accordance with
> international best practice. The zone will be independent of the Kingdom’s
> existing governmental framework, excluding sovereign laws. Social norms in
> Neom will adopt leading practices to improve standards of livability for its
> residents and visitors.

and clarifying 'independent systems' a little later:

> The project will be developed within a specialized zone, independent of the
> Kingdom’s existing governmental framework, excluding sovereign laws, in
> regards to taxation, customs, labor laws, and other legal parameters
> pertaining to business. As such, a zone within an independent system gives
> industry the ability to manufacture and provide, goods and services at
> globally competitive prices

So it sounds like they at least want to shed the more regressive parts of the
traditional Islamic culture in Saudi Arabia to bring in international visitors
who are reticent to visit or invest in Saudi Arabia because of the way the
laws treat women/homosexuals/etc.

~~~
microcolonel
> _So it sounds like they at least want to shed the more regressive parts of
> the traditional Islamic culture in Saudi Arabia to bring in international
> visitors who are reticent to visit or invest in Saudi Arabia because of the
> way the laws treat women /homosexuals/etc._

It seems more like they're just dancing around the issue to me. Neom is still
under the full control of a Sunni theocracy, it just has separate regulatory
structures, like a SEZ in China.

~~~
Udik
Is it easier to change the culture and the way of life of a country by
introducing changes at a slow, steady pace, over a long period of time; or is
it easier to do it by introducing abrupt changes in a small area, and then
extend the area progressively until it covers the whole country? Might be what
they're trying to do?

~~~
forkLding
Like in Hong Kong? In the end, its up to the government, and I dont think they
want to abolish the absolute monarchy and introduce in democracy yet as it
takes away the power of the Al-Saud family and might leave them vulnerable to
political enemies

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
I don't believe absolute monarchy and liberal society are necessarily mutually
exclusive.

------
nategri
I see the new Bioshock is coming along nicely.

~~~
rishabhd
BioShock:Saudi Edition

------
orasis
As someone who lives semi-arid, good luck growing abundant food on this land.

I have 12 acre feet of water rights on 58 acres in Montana and its still a lot
of work.

(For sale btw: It's fun as a giant playground
[http://www.eralandmark.com/listings/view/307976](http://www.eralandmark.com/listings/view/307976))

~~~
redblacktree
> 12 acre feet of water rights on 58 acres

Could you explain these terms better? How does that work? Thanks!

~~~
danielvf
An acre foot is a volume of water one acre, one foot deep, used over a year.
In gallons, that’s 325,851 gallons per year per acre foot.

The poster then can use about 4 million gallons of water per year for his
land.

When spread out over this amount of land, that’s about 66% of the amount of
water needed for a suburban grass lawn in a hot climate.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
Not parent, but thanks for the detailed response.

One thing though:

> that’s about 66% of the amount of water needed for a suburban grass lawn in
> a hot climate

I'm not sure how to related to this. If a person wanted to grow food in a hot
climate they'd probably build tunnels or shaded houses or some such, or grow
olives or some other food plant suited to the conditions, using drip
irrigation. Where as a suburban lawn is typically exposed to direct sun light
and watered in a typically less than optimal way.

------
mcrowson
Welcome to Zombocom [http://www.zombo.com/](http://www.zombo.com/)

~~~
pmarreck
The impossible IS attainable at neom.com

------
rkwasny
Is it only me looking for an ICO details at the bottom of the page? :)

~~~
ktta
Well, here's the whitepaper -
[http://www.discoverneom.com/content/pdfs/NEOM_FACT_SHEET_ENG...](http://www.discoverneom.com/content/pdfs/NEOM_FACT_SHEET_ENGLISH.pdf)

------
zokier
Does anyone know why Saudi Arabia does not have a big space program? Seems
like more reasonable way to spend exorbitant amounts of money than building
paradise cities in the middle of a desert.

------
davidcollantes
Question:

\- Which religion will be NEOM's?

Everything else comes down from it.

~~~
pmarreck
I think "secular humanist" is a good start (and compatible with atheism as
well as a number of other religions to varying degrees)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism)

EDIT: Not sure why I'm being downvoted here. The linked site is absolutely
ridiculous in its lack of information which is a hallmark of concepts that
overpromise via marketing and underdeliver by not shipping

~~~
cwilson
I think you are being down-voted because others have pointed out this is a
venture by the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, so it will most definitely not be
Secular humanism or anything close to it.

~~~
pmarreck
Well then it's doomed to fail, frankly, because 1) it's an extra limitation on
the behavior of people in their target market of "free thinking, creative
individuals" (who will not appreciate arbitrary constraints on their behavior
that are not based on secular ethical established facts), and 2) there is no
rational evidence that living that way is somehow superior to something like
secular humanism, in fact the evidence seems to indicate the opposite

[https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-
life/201410...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-
life/201410/secular-societies-fare-better-religious-societies)

But I was not here to argue that. If this new "nation" wishes to be forward-
thinking and open-mind-inviting, it needs to shake off the religion
requirement.

------
dabbledash
I guess I just missed the section on 'how you will be governed' and 'how will
we care for the old / poor / infirm'.

------
jshaqaw
This looks like the Fyre Festival of country startups

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
The video on this page had some eerie similarities to the Fyre Festival deck.

------
manyoso
So essentially it sounds like an experiment:

Does a place designed for the rich and privileged, by the rich and privileged
equal a rich and privileged utopia?

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
In Utopia there are no poor people.

------
mempko
Society run by technocrats using state capitalism. I've think I've seen that
before... Is this Soviet Union 2.0? Maybe we have the technology to build it
now?

~~~
fortythirteen
> Society run by technocrats

More like a society run by theocrats, allowing technologists to live and work
there, with a handshake promise to be "more socially open minded".

~~~
mempko
I think you are right. Soviet Union was an atheist society. What would the
marriage of ruling by theocracy and managing by technology be called?

Let's call it Theotechnocracy?

~~~
fortythirteen
That's pretty much what communism/stalinism is. The party leader is the
godhead and everything is managed by technology (aka, bureaucrats).

Being arrested for blasphemy is really no different than being "re-educated".

------
andrepd
Plenty of grandiose claims but little substance. What is this about? A pilot
city for testing next-gen infrastructure technologies built from scratch?

------
DubiousPusher
I think there's a pretty good chance that this succeeds wildly at everything
it advertises.

Unfortunately it doesn't advertise democracy, equality, upward mobility,
stability, justice, diversity or even freedom.

But in this world, are there enough rich, heteronormal, globe trotters that
fetishize clean energy, "clean" food and electric cars to make something like
this a success? Probably.

~~~
xg15
Indeed. The whole thing sounds less like Dubai 2.0 and more like Singapore 2.0
to me.

------
azinman2
An entirely new city, centrally planned from scratch by developers and
investors without any organic growth, no history, no culture, an initial
population of zero, in Saudi Arabia that costs half a trillion to make.

What could possibly go wrong?

------
dreamcompiler
The Arab countries are not stupid; they know the oil is going to run out and
they're trying to plan for the future. Nevertheless this sounds like yet
another Masdar City, which has been mostly a failure [1]. (One of the many
problems with MC is that PV panels in a landscape of blowing sand have to be
swept daily or they stop working.)

[1]
[https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/feb/16/masdars-...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/feb/16/masdars-
zero-carbon-dream-could-become-worlds-first-green-ghost-town)

------
weego
It's amazing how quickly the mind absorbs trends and makes assumptions. From
the moment I started reading the top of the page I assumed this was going to
be publicity for a new ICO raise.

------
ythn
The quality/success of a future project is inversely proportional to the
glamour of its initial marketing.

The marketing seems just a little too polished on this one. Reminds me of a
kickstarter scam.

------
immutable_ai
Fascinating. It is good to see that some people are actually dreaming and
acting on a bigger scale than rent seeking mobile apps.

------
Apocryphon
Will it be a rival to the new Cairo mega-city?

[http://www.cnn.com/style/article/egypt-new-
capital/index.htm...](http://www.cnn.com/style/article/egypt-new-
capital/index.htm..).

------
mapcars
Everything looks perfect, we only need to find perfect humans to complete the
project.

------
narvind
Thanks but no thanks, crown prince. Good luck with your project!

------
dcre
It took me a long time to figure out whether this was a parody.

------
tahw
LMAOing at the idea of a "free nation" in which saudi arabia--one of the most
insanely conservative nations on earth--has total sovereignty.

------
philippnagel
The website of their PR firm greets me with this:
[http://archive.is/B7aUx](http://archive.is/B7aUx).

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
Are you claiming that it is NOT important to have the latest version of Adobe
Flash installed....

That's a bold move Cotton.

------
egd
So where the folks who haul the garbage get to live?

------
bitwize
"Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...
NEOM."

------
d--b
This looks like the Saudis want to have their own Qatar-like state...

------
pmarreck
They should have called it LOTF
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Flies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Flies))

Or perhaps MUDW ("Muslim Utopia Doesn't Work")

------
bluetwo
A fool and his money...

------
mozumder
Not going to work without major university presence nearby.

~~~
kissickas
KAUST is nearby. Founded in 2009 so it's still new but it has the sixth-
biggest endowment in the world.

From
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Abdullah_University_of_Sc...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Abdullah_University_of_Science_and_Technology)
:

"It was founded in 2009 and provides research and graduate training programs
using English as the official language of instruction. It was announced in
2013 that KAUST had one of the fastest growing research and citation records
in the world and in the 2016 Nature Index Rising Stars was ranked #19 in the
world of the fastest rising universities for high quality research output.
KAUST was ranked as the world's top university in citations per faculty
ranking indicator as per QS World University Rankings for 2015-2016 and
2016-2017."

~~~
mozumder
940 students and 1200 alumni.

Meanwhile, a public university in the US might typically have 40,000 students,
and there are tons of them.

You really need a major university presence for this to work. If Saudi Arabia
wants to compete economically, they need a good half-million university
students.

------
nikolay
I don't think Saudi Arabia and innovation can exist in the same sentence!

------
Nux
Stopped reading at "Saudi Arabia", what a pile of &%#+.

------
neom
Hmmmmmm.... :|

------
nkkollaw
Is this a startuptorship, then?

One startup (read corporation) that rules a whole country.

Finally! /s

------
newobj
A new land wherein your browser scroll is overridden.

~~~
dekken_
I hate that place!

------
fortythirteen
The last person I would trust to build the free, open society of the future is
the monarch of a country that still executes people for being gay.

~~~
jackjeff
Apostasy and consuming any kind of drugs is also punishable by death. Drinking
alcohol and having sex outside marriage are severely reprimanded.

And you also have all the vexations of "normal" regular life. Women were not
allowed to drive at all until recently. Movie theaters simply do not exist in
Saudi. Movies that you can legally watch (at home) are heavily censored (so
piracy is your only option). And you have segregated areas for males and
females in restaurant and most shops...

A project like Neom would totally work if they promised the locals that none
of the bullshit rules would apply. Young Saudis would just swamp the place and
work their asses off to make it happen... but I doubt the old religious guard
would like that. Just marketing BS. They'll just build fancy buildings in the
desert at great expense, and nothing will come out of it.

