
Hidden motors in cycling: Van den Dreissche banned for 6 years, titles stripped - buro9
http://cyclingtips.com/2016/04/hidden-motors-van-den-dreissche-banned-for-six-years-stripped-of-european-and-belgian-under-23-titles/
======
buro9
This is a follow-up to discussions on "mechanical doping" in cycling.

The first story I recall on this topic was in 2010:
[http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2010/may/19/cycling-
motors-...](http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2010/may/19/cycling-motors-
mechanical-doping)

This is now 6 years later, and we finally have the first pro cyclist banned
based on being caught red-handed at an event with a motor in her bicycle.

The type of motor she used was a Vivak, one of these: [http://www.vivax-
assist.com/en/produkte/vivax-assist-4-0/viv...](http://www.vivax-
assist.com/en/produkte/vivax-assist-4-0/vivax-assist_4-0.php) though probably
with a slightly modified button to make it more discreet.

~~~
Xylakant
"It was controlled by a Bluetooth switch installed underneath the handlebar
tape." (in the article)

~~~
shpx
They should install Bluetooth sniffers before steep sections, it would be cool
to see a little ping on the radio and then watch one of the racers magically
pull ahead.

~~~
fahadkhan
Cyclist also (legally) use wireless candance, speed, power, gear ratio, heart
rate sensors, etc. Though they're normally ANT+ and not Bluetooth.

~~~
matthewowen
BTLE is becoming increasingly popular (eg Polar has moved entirely to using
it).

------
giarc
>She also said that this bike was taken by accident by her helpers to the pit
area.

>She claimed that he had put a motor in unbeknownst to her

What is with athletes and never admitting their mistakes. You were caught, I
would have much more respect for someone if they just came out and said "Yes,
I did it, I take full responsibility." Instead they come up with these
ridiculous excuses that do nothing but continue to degrade their integrity.

~~~
darkerside
Marion Jones is the only person I can think of that has actually done this.

[http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/05/jones.doping/index.html?ere...](http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/05/jones.doping/index.html?eref=time_us)

~~~
giarc
I seem to remember Andy Pettitte immediately taking responsibility, as opposed
to Roger Clemens who denied it for awhile. However, I'm not positive.

------
bodyloss
How does the UCI enforce a fine? When you race do you have to sign a contract
stating that you will pay any penalties, or can the fine be seen as "must be
paid before competing again"?

~~~
mikestew
You don't have to pay it, but you won't be racing again. As a former USA
Cycling official, I'd occasionally fine riders for infractions (usually $20-50
payable to the youth rider fund). They didn't have to pay it, as I had no
enforcement authority outside of bike races. However, if I saw you next week
and you hadn't paid the fine, you won't be at the start line. I couldn't make
you pay it, but I could prevent you from racing.

------
atom-morgan
I don't see it in the article but I heard it recently so I guess I'll share.

Lance Armstrong was on the Joe Rogan Experience and discussed doping within
the sport. He said at one point in time, people would thread fishing line
through a wine cork. They'd tie the line to the tail of a car and stick the
cork in their mouth. As the car starts moving, the cork pulls against your
teeth giving you just enough pull.

~~~
WalterBright
Sounds like a fine way to lose your teeth.

~~~
soperj
pretty sure the cork would break before your teeth.

~~~
WalterBright
I wouldn't want to test that theory.

~~~
Bootvis
Then you're not a professional cyclist ;) The lengths they will go to for a
small advantage...

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larrydag
Infrared FLIR cameras are being used to help spot the cheaters.

[http://hackaday.com/2016/04/25/cyclists-use-tiny-motors-
to-c...](http://hackaday.com/2016/04/25/cyclists-use-tiny-motors-to-cheat/)

~~~
huphtur
That news article may not be entirely correct: [https://www.eptc.co/watts-the-
deal-with-motors/](https://www.eptc.co/watts-the-deal-with-motors/)

~~~
rasz_pl
This guy analysed a control image - image taken of a KNOWN bike with a vivax
motor - and came to a conclusion there is no motor in that picture.

~~~
mrob
What's more it claims that friction is the biggest source of losses in an
electric motor, when it's actually a very minor source of losses. The biggest
losses are from resistive heating. See section "Motor Efficiency" at:

[http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/products/reference/15297](http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/products/reference/15297)

------
jschwartzi
If the motor was installed by a family friend, why would that person need to
conceal the switch?

~~~
commenter1239
It was alleged, that the bike with the motor, was not her bike but a friend's
bike, that was left in their tent, and mistaken to be the althlete's bike. But
also supports your statement, if this wasn't the athlete's bike, why go
through the effort to hide the switch or mechanism at all if you're not
competing?

On the flip side, if the bike was actually a friend's bike, what do you say to
that friend that got you banned?

~~~
Someone1234
More convoluted than even that.

She admits that it WAS her bike. But that she sold her bike to a friend who
then installed a motor, brought it to her event, then her "helpers" mistakenly
brought it out to the pit area.

See, her original explanation that it was just a friend's random bike didn't
wash with it being painted like her other race bikes are. This new explanation
of it being one of her bikes that she sold to a friend, now fits in with the
narrative she is trying to spin.

Honestly the whole story is nonsense.

------
SkyMarshal
What's interesting to me is that these folks, from Lance to moto-users, think
there's a reasonable chance they won't get caught cheating at one of the most
observed, recorded, scrutinized events in the world. They're playing a
delicate game of signaling and information theory.

Either they're right and the ones who were actually caught were only the tip
of the iceberg, or they're making what should be a blatantly obvious
miscalculation of the odds of getting caught. Not sure which yet.

------
KON_Air
It makes me wonder if the engines would be this sophisticated if they weren't
for cheating?

~~~
maxerickson
Even rather casual cyclists will want something as light as possible and the
in-frame hub drive arrangement has nice aesthetics.

~~~
celticninja
Yes but casual cyclists will not pay €2499 for the pleasure of doing so

~~~
alistairSH
It depends how you define "casual". I tend to think of casual cyclists as avid
cyclists who don't race. Anybody who isn't avid is just a guy/gal on a bike.

By that definition, casual cyclists spend ridiculous amounts of money on
cycling kit. $2000 for a set of carbon fiber wheels. $1000 for a power meter.
Trek has a custom line of bikes (Project One) that retail in the $7000-$15000
range (US).

~~~
zyxley
By my thoughts, somebody who's spent more than $1000 or so on bike and gear,
maximum, isn't a "casual" cyclist.

If they're buying individual parts that cost more than an entire road bike
that would be recommended by a store clerk to some guy walking in off the
street, they're well beyond "casual".

~~~
exDM69
That isn't too much to spend on a bike. My bike is more than that and isn't
special in any way, just a good regular bike. And I just use it to ride to
work, this isn't anything I'm enthusiastic about.

Add the bags/panniers, lights, pump, clothing and other accessories on top.

I get about 100 miles a week, 8-9 months a year so it justifies the
investment.

~~~
Symbiote
I'd say anyone who has special clothing for cycling is an enthusiast,
particularly if it's more than $50 worth.

~~~
exDM69
I don't have that either. Just some gear to withstand light rain and cold.
Nothing that's especially made for cycling, I use this with other outdoors
activities too. My way to work is too long to comfortably ride in work
clothes. Imagine riding 8 miles in your jeans and sweater and then sitting in
front of the computer all day in the same clothes after that.

You're trying to label people "cycling enthusiasts" in your heads (and I know
_exactly_ the stereotype you're thinking of). They do exist, but for most
people riding a bike, it's just their daily commute. It might need a decent
bike and a few items of clothing.

You don't call every car owner a "car enthusiast" even though taking the
train/bus is a viable option in many places of the world and owning a car is
much more expensive than a bike.

------
e40
_“I was stood in the pit next to Femke’s entourage,” he said then. “I don’t
quite know what it was, but something seemed a bit weird there. The whole team
had walkie talkie radios, ear pieces and seemed pretty anxious and, overall,
just a bit odd. I’d never seen that before and it kind of stuck in my head.”_

Very clear that everyone knew about it.

~~~
huuu
No it's not.

The quote and your command are all based on feelings and assumptions.

------
altotrees
Being a cycling fan and rider, and reading quite a bit about the various
allegations and methods of cheating over the years have led to me becoming
quite jaded — and not surprised in the least at this announcement.

Thinking of all the ways riders have cheated, from Lance's blood-doping to the
Festina Affair to Marco Pantani...it just seems like many of the icons of the
sport are mired in cheating and doping scandals, and this story is further
evidence that while testing may have evolved, so too have the methods of
cheating.

This leads me to wonder why cheating is so rampant in the sport? I used to
think it was only due to lax testing policies, but now think it is more a
product of the insane amount of stress the grueling courses put on a rider's
body, along with the likelihood that anyone in this very individual sport is
probably more competitive than most other people by nature.

It just disheartens me as a fan. I truly wonder sometimes if the testing and
oversight can ever catch up with all the cheating. A part of me wants to think
yes...but stories like this continue to make me think otherwise.

~~~
tmptmp
>>This leads me to wonder why cheating is so rampant in the sport?

May be one of the major reasons is money involved. Cheating is one side the
other is fixing: with aim to get more and quick money. In first case, i.e. of
cheating, you aim for money by becoming famous and then grab advert contracts.
In the other case, you get direct money to lose.

Money and advertisement are destroying many a sports. Sadly, it seems to go
worse.

------
mirekrusin
Why do they care about such a niche/illegal market, this idea is fantastic,
imagine Boris bikes in London for example - they could recharge batteries when
docked, it would be awesome to have this kind of engine in those tank-bikes.

Extra points - please distribute heat on the handles because it's often cold.
Thank you.

~~~
shawabawa3
Apparently they were trialling/planning to trial electric boris bikes in some
parts of London in 2013. I've been googling and can't find any follow up to it
though

~~~
Symbiote
The hire bikes in Copenhagen have electric motors. And ipads mounted on the
handlebars.

I don't know why, the system doesn't seem especially useful in a flat city.

------
VeejayRampay
What about Ryder Hesjedal's bike spinning on itself a few years back?

Are we addressing that as well? It feels like the UCI is only going after easy
pickings to prove a point and not doing its best to actually to fight
mechanical cheating in fear of yet another scandal.

~~~
jokamoto
That's already been demonstrated to be a side effect of a still-spinning rear
wheel:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak7xP8eghog](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak7xP8eghog)

It should also be noted that "incident" occurred on a fast downhill section
while Hesjedal wasn't pedaling so even if there were a motor it is exceedingly
unlikely it would still be engaged at the time of the crash.

With a plausible physical explanation and no way to go back in time to check
the bike for a motor, there's not much for the UCI to go after even if it felt
the need to.

~~~
BoppreH
I'm not convinced. Compare:

[https://youtu.be/ynLMfzLTc8M?t=8](https://youtu.be/ynLMfzLTc8M?t=8)

and

[https://youtu.be/Ak7xP8eghog?t=13](https://youtu.be/Ak7xP8eghog?t=13)

That was the best run in that video. The wheel spun less than 180 degrees
after being carefully placed on the ground. In the original video the wheel
was in contact with the ground for _seconds_ before it got free to spin. It
then spun for more than 180 degrees and seemed to be accelerating.

I know such motors are supposed to stop when you stop pedaling, but it could
be a different one. There's still enough evidence to look damning.

------
justinator
Has this specific bike in question been show to the public?

I'm very much aware the technology exists where this can realistically be a
problem, but I'm surprised that the actual smoking gun has not been shown.

------
skybrian
Are there any competitions where this sort of motor assist is legal? It seems
like that might be an interesting sport.

~~~
tlrobinson
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_sport](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_sport)

~~~
zyxley
Yeah - if you allow any kind of motors as a standard part of the ruleset,
you've basically got 'lightweight motorcycle racing'.

You can get something like this already with trial riding or motocross races,
where having a lightweight motorcycle is essential for handling in rough
terrain and to take falls and jumps without breaking the suspension.

------
fiftyacorn
Did anyone listen too the Telegraph Cycling Podcast - they were talking about
respected journalists being convinced some of the big names have been using
motors. They expect any revelations to come before the tour of italy or france
- as is normal for big cycling stories

------
davidw
Yeah, but that's yesterday's news.

Today had Marcel Kittel winning a snow-shortened stage in the Tour de Romandie
and Sacha Modolo winning in the Tour of Turkey.

Also, the guidebook for the upcoming Giro d'Italia has been published:
[http://static2.giroditalia.it/wp-
content/uploads/2016/04/Gar...](http://static2.giroditalia.it/wp-
content/uploads/2016/04/Garibaldi-affiancate.pdf)

Looks to be a great race, although I think there's a risk that stages 19 and
20, which thread their way through the Alps on the French-Italian border will
get cancelled or rerouted due to snow.

The stage in Friuli looks like it could be particularly good, and the Dolomite
stage is going to be awesome!

On a personal level, watching the Giro will make me nostalgic, I'm sure. One
stage, Modena-Asolo even goes over some of the roads that I used to ride on
near Padova.

~~~
waynecochran
I used to really like to follow cycling -- I have now concluded it is the
dirtiest sport there is. They are the original dopers -- note that the list
starts in the 1800's:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cyclin...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling)

    
    
        e.g. 1930 "The acceptance of drug-taking in the Tour de
        France was so complete by 1930 that the rule book, 
        distributed by Henri Desgrange, reminded riders that 
        drugs would not be provided by the organizers."
    

Now their "doping" the bikes.

~~~
davidw
Oh, bullshit.

Look at how rotten soccer is from FIFA on down. Look at US sports where those
guys were oozing steroids out there ears with basically no consequences.

It's just that cycling is kind of a working man's sport in Europe and is sort
of caught in a no-man's land: it's not wealthy enough to buy its way out of
trouble like soccer and US sports, but does have enough money to attract
cheaters.

When the scandal linked below hit, all the cyclists got caught and punished
(rightfully so!), but people in other sports? The judge has ordered the
evidence destroyed!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Puerto_doping_c...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Puerto_doping_case)

This was roughly the time period when the Spanish soccer team was running away
with all kinds of international success.

Cycling has surely had its share of problems, but it is also making a big
effort to clean things up, with fairly draconian out of competition testing
that would no way, no how be accepted by stars in other sports.

See also:
[https://twitter.com/veloropa/status/725359244443262976](https://twitter.com/veloropa/status/725359244443262976)

And like the response says, the only reason soccer doesn't have a bunch more
is because they don't test well. If there's doping in cycling, you can bet
that, at 10X (at least) the money in soccer, there's some serious doping going
on there too.

~~~
waynecochran
I get it -- you like cycling -- I do to. I think the races are so grueling
that it was the first sport to find methods to endure the inhumane distances
and terrain. But if you really like cycling you got to come to grips with how
dirty the profession is -- real change won't happen until the organizers pull
their heads out of the sand.

Take a look at the leaderboards at the Tour de France -- these are just those
that are caught:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France#2...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France#2008_Tour_de_France)

It doesn't do any good to point at FIFA soccer... their dirt is more in the
power and financial aspect of their sport -- and its horrible. Cycling has far
higher demands on the human body in terms of endurance and a willingness to
suffer -- thus drugs (and hidden motors) will always be a real temptation.

~~~
davidw
I like cycling, and I like clean cycling, and it does not do any good to smear
the whole sport with "dirty!".

What's that do to the guys who are competing clean? It pisses all over their
efforts is what it does. It's not fair, and it does not help.

Soccer is certainly not as hard as cycling ( [https://s-media-cache-
ak0.pinimg.com/736x/55/b5/51/55b551bfa...](https://s-media-cache-
ak0.pinimg.com/736x/55/b5/51/55b551bfa7e05c39e32972920940e16c.jpg) ) , but
with that much money involved, being relatively fresh after 80 minutes can
count for a lot.

~~~
mikestew
_What 's that do to the guys who are competing clean?_

And just who would be on that short list? Like the commenter to whom you
reply, I too used to be into cycling. Paid for streaming all the races. Used
to race myself, and was a race official. But one after another got popped. I
used to say that if Jens Voigt ever tested positive, I'd quit watching the
sport, because I thought him to be the epitome of the hard-working rider who
gets by on hard work and talent. Now I'm pretty sure Jens is on the juice,
too. Hell, amateurs are getting popped for doping in Grand Fondos, where
there's no money and no one gives a shit. Yeah, I'm going to smear the whole
sport, because it's demonstrated to be dirty top to bottom. Go read _A Dog in
a Hat_ , about an American's time low-level racing in Europe. In that author's
experience, _everybody_ dopes. Doping _defines_ cycling, IMO, and it's been
that way for years.

So I don't pay any attention the sport at all and watch MotoGP instead.
Because playing the game of "who's clean and who's not" is not why I watched
the sport. Sure, the sprinkling of clean riders get caught in the downward
spiraling revenues, but that's not my problem.

~~~
davidw
I'd bet good money that Taylor Phinney competes clean.

Also: Jens Voigt retired a few years ago.

~~~
mikestew
_I 'd bet good money that Taylor Phinney competes clean._

There was a time I'd bet good money that a number of riders competed clean. I
no longer hold that opinion. Not to disparage Mr. Phinney; if I had to bet,
I'd put money on him. Seems like a stand-up guy, tech inspected his bike once,
really nice and down-to-earth. But I'd still only bet money I could afford to
lose.

 _Also: Jens Voigt retired a few years ago._

Shows how long it's been since I've paid attention. :-)

------
dghughes
I've seen videos of this it's got to be one of the lowest things in a sport
you could do.

But I had to laugh out loud when I saw a video bikes crashing yet the back
wheel was still spinning.

~~~
adimitrov
> But I had to laugh out loud when I saw a video bikes crashing yet the back
> wheel was still spinning.

Was that the old chestnut with Hesjedal's crash? Com on, that's just nonsense.
The wheel was spinning after the crash from inertia — that is not only
plausible, it's entirely expected, and the case in major crashes all the time.
There's absolutely _no_ reason to believe that this was caused by a motor.

Besides most of these motors (including the one just found) spin the _pedals_.
So if the pedals continued rotating after the crash, you'd have a point. The
ones that propel the wheels directly with neodymium magnets cost like 50k a
wheel and are probably a lot less common to begin with, if they're even being
used at all.

~~~
dghughes
I don't know who it was I'm not into cycling or its famous athletes I saw a
few crashes on an Italian investigative TV show with French subtitles. I don't
read or speak either language so I have no idea who they were talking about.

------
Bootvis
Small note to dang about the title: here and in the original title is wrong.
The name is 'Van den Driessche' so with the i and e switched.

------
OneOneOneOne
Part of me wonders why only 6 years.

It doesn't seem like someone who would do this has much respect for the sport.

~~~
poooogles
It's enough to destroy her career which is all they really needed to do.

To do it you have to have no respect at all. Sure EPO is awful, but an extra
200 watts for no extra work is a different level.

~~~
soperj
It's really not. At least it doesn't fuck her body up for the rest of her
life. Because everyone was taking EPO, to compete you had to take EPO.

------
Mikeb85
Just be like formula 1 - create passing zones where they can use the motors (I
know it's DRS and not the motor, but that concept) remotely disable them
otherwise. Regulate everything.

Cycling needs a shake up, way too many scandals recently...

------
ars
This is unrelated, but that has to be the most confusing way to write a price
I've ever seen: 2.699,00 - a period for the thousands separator, and a decimal
comma for the cents.

I am aware of decimal commas - but a period for the thousands? I thought they
used a space, or an apostrophe? 2'699,00

It must be tough writing code in Europe - computers only use decimal points,
not decimal commas. And how do you make an international interface for money,
when you never know how people will enter things?

~~~
dang
We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581036](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581036)
and marked it off-topic.

~~~
Karunamon
Out of curiosity, what does marking a subthread off topic entail?

~~~
dang
It makes it rank lower.

