

You're still legally dead, judge tells Fostoria man - bsullivan01
http://www.thecourier.com/Issues/2013/Oct/08/ar_news_100813_story2.asp?d=100813_story2,2013,Oct,08&c=n

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grecy
> _" I don't know where that leaves you, but you're still deceased as far as
> the law is concerned," Davis said._

When even a Judge recognizes that common sense should prevail, but isn't
willing to do anything about it, courts start to be pretty useless.

~~~
javajosh
I was prepared to think that before reading the article. However, after
reading it, I understand:

Reversing the man's death status will hurt innocent people badly. In
particular, it would force his abandoned wife and children to pay back the
Social Security benefits they claimed after he disappeared.

The real problem is with the Social Security Administration rules. They should
not force the woman and her children to give back the money. I suppose the
ideal situation is that the man is dead as far as the SSA is concerned.

Honestly, I am totally unsympathetic with this man. He abandoned his family.
He abandoned them and was dead to them. He should have just stayed dead. No
driver's license? Tough shit, asshole.

~~~
pekk
I don't see how you are blaming the government for this. Why not just give out
the same social security benefit any old time to anyone who asks? That's what
you're going to do when you formalize this as a loophole for getting benefits.

When someone is discovered alive, obviously that should automatically reverse
their 'death status' \- not to mention that they do not forfeit rights as a
citizen because they were thought dead.

Instead of even thinking about the legal issues you are making this about your
own emotional reaction to what a bad man he is and how bad the government
supposedly is.

~~~
aquark
I don't think I'd characterize it as a loophole per se, since it requires
being legally declared dead in the first place.

That is a pretty big hurdle to have to jump through!

~~~
rprospero
Agreed. My father was in the reverse situation, where he spent several months
legally alive in the coroner's office. We're still running into issues with
agencies refusing to believe that he passed away.

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sparktherapy
This would cause all sorts of complications. I think the three-year limit
should have an exception for mysterious reappearance, this man given his
"life" back and be demanded to repay child support.

What happens if this man gets murdered? Can you go to jail for killing a dead
man?

~~~
RokStdy
If his being dead exempts him from paying child support, does that also mean
he can't be convicted of a crime?

This guy has inadvertently circumvented the legal system! He is currently
robbing a liquor store while streaking and littering.

He's untouchable.

~~~
nextw33k
Its probably the opposite.

Police pick him up for any crime, take him to a cell, look him up on the
police database. Find out he's dead and decide not to feed him and just leave
him in his cell. He's dead so no need to grant him bail.

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peterkelly
Imagine all the crimes you could get away with.

"What is your defence sir?"

"I'm dead, so I couldn't conceivably be guilty of doing any of these things"

~~~
krapp
On the other hand, if you're dead they wouldn't really have to bother with a
trial, would they?

~~~
soneca
If someone kills him, is it not murder?

~~~
krapp
That depends on how far the state is willing to entertain the farce that you
were "dead" to begin with. They may just declare you "guilty in absentia" or
just say "nope, turns out you're not dead, goofball."

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ryusage
Weird. Why is there a three year limit anyway? If the guy is standing in front
of you and it's pretty clear he's not dead, why insist that he's dead?

~~~
HarryHirsch
This is about the guy's Social Security money. You could argue that he shows
up with unclean hands at court, after all he knew he had been declared dead
since 2005 and did nothing about it in the intervening years.

The obligatory references are Le Gentil
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_Le_Gentil](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_Le_Gentil))
and the Uttar Pradesh Association of Dead People
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_the_Dead](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_the_Dead))

~~~
TheSwordsman
Maybe he didn't have the money to try to appeal this in court. The original
article makes it seem that money was a factor here.

I guess it makes sense, but weird that you need to pay a nice chunk of money
for someone to determine you are indeed actually alive...

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jonnathanson
This is an extremely weird and interesting case, and it'd be especially
curious if he's no longer afforded the Constitutional protections of a
natural, living citizen.

The closest legal analogue I can think of is the (now outdated) concept of
"outlawry," whereby an "outlaw" was someone legally excommunicated from a
society. An outlaw could be deprived of property, liberty, and even life by
any legal citizen of that society.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw)

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DanielBMarkham
_" He asked the court to reverse its 1994 death ruling so he can reinstate his
canceled Social Security number and driver's license.

The court said no."_

I don't think he's legally dead, I just think he's not going to be able to get
his old identification back.

Sounds like a civil rights problem, as this man is being refused access to his
own identity and rights.

In particular, I think if he commits a crime, like spitting on the judge right
after his announcement, he'd certainly be found "alive" enough to incarcerate,
so really the only thing the judge is doing is preventing him from accessing
the _services_ of government, although he's imminently liable for abiding by
the strictures of government.

Heck if I wouldn't be tempted to break a law if I were him. Then appeal it as
undue process because the officers of the court refused to identify him.

I am definitely not a lawyer, but I feel certain this man is not legally dead
in the way most people think of it.

~~~
rprospero
> Heck if I wouldn't be tempted to break a law if I were him. Then appeal it
> as undue process because the officers of the court refused to identify him.

Of course, the simple solution there would be for the cops to just shoot him.
File in the police report that the suspect was "Dead on Arrival".

There's not enough information in the store to tell, but I think that he is
not being held liable for abiding the strictures of the government. There was
no comment about him being asked to pay the back child support he owed. I
wouldn't be surprised to learn that he's been working off the books and not
paying into Social Security (hence remaining dead for so long).

I'm not saying that this ridiculous legal status is a good thing. I've been on
the reverse side of this - we're still getting various agencies to recognize
my father's death, despite his cremation. However, my suspicion is that he'll
find legal resurrection far less enjoyable than his current state.

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peterkelly
Not the first time a dead person as been put on trial...

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod)

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jyz
This is why I'm an engineer instead of a lawyer

