
Rock climbing and the economics of innovation - evilsimon
http://www.softmachines.org/wordpress/?p=2388
======
SethTro
I loved this article.

One other aspect I think it omitted, likely to balance brevity with scope, is
about standard deviations.

When you only have the most rich and privileged doing a sport (e.g. travelling
to summit mountains) the "best" will be selected from a relatively small pool
of candidates. As an activity gains popularity, and as more people have the
means to pursue it, the pool of people for "best" grows and it's no surprise
that the max of the distribution increases.

There world's population has grown 2x since 1957 when El Capitan was first
submitted. The number of people doing fitness in their free time, I'd suspect
is up 10x or 100x. This is double true for activities like Chess or Olympic
sports where nation states have started searching for talent in wider and
wider ways.

~~~
rozab
I think the main innovation is actually climbing gyms and their popularity,
and I'm surprised they weren't talked about in the article. For instance, Alex
Honnold replicated many of the difficult moves of Freerider in indoor gyms,
which makes it logistically possible to train far more often and intensely. It
also serves to further democratize the sport because you don't need the
unlimited funds to travel to these spots in the middle of nowhere.

The campus board was only invented in 1988 by Wolfgang Güllich while he was
training for Action Directe. Now there's one hanging in every gym in the
world.

And I think Lynn Hill has said that one of the things that made her first free
ascent of the Nose possible was new climbing gyms, that let her train more
intensively than was possible before.

So yeah, as the sport grows we also get more gyms, which further grows the
pool of potential record breakers to those who can't travel as much.

------
ezoe
The very interesting trend right now is there are so many new climbing shoes
vendors start appearing within a couple of years. I suspect it's because the
Olympic accepted free climbing.

I was skeptical at first on these freshly new shoes vendors, but when I tried
out their products, it's on-par quality with the existing vendors. Even more,
often time, these newcomers has far durable product than the traditional
vendors.

My guess is, traditional vendors aimed for the too high end product and losing
the durability. They aimed for the high friction and more natural naked foot
feeling, resulting their sole ever softer rubber and thinner. Usual climbing
shoes sole has 4mm thick. But these high end product go as thin as 2.5mm.

If your weight isn't less than 50kg, you'll wear it out in 3 month.

My other complaint for a particular famous Italian climbing shoes vendor is,
that they don't use strong glue. Perhaps, Italia is less humid than Japan so
their glue doesn't need to be that strong, but this particular Italian-made
shoes has serious issues on their glue so the shoes start to disassemble
itself before the sole wear out.

~~~
necubi
My primary shoe for bouldering is the Scarpa Drago, which has 2.5mm rubber.
The toe rubber wears out after ~3 months. That's pretty fast for a $200 shoe,
but it can be resoled several times (~$40 for a pair) for a total cost of
~$320/year. To me, that's worth it for the comfort and performance.

But I'm not sure this is really a trend overall; there are still plenty of
high-end shoes from Scarpa, La Sportiva, etc. with thicker rubber.

Definitely great to see all of the new entrants though. It's amazing how much
climbing shoes have evolved even in just the past decade.

~~~
ezoe
If you want the absolute best to win the climbing competition, that's a viable
strategy and totally worth the money for.

But for a casual climber like me whose best grade is 3級(Japanese grade
standard, equivalent of 6a+/6b or V3) and climb once per week in a indoor gym,
it's a diminishing return.

I want my shoes to be durable enough for at least 9 months. The resole is
cheaper but necessary effort for the resole(bring shoes to the resole service,
negotiating how I would like to be resoled) is a quite hassle for me. So I'd
rather buy a new shoes.

~~~
laxatives
Think you're putting too much focus on the shoe. I've had a $40 pair of shoes
for nearly 8 years without a resole for when I want comfort. Climbing V6
without issues (at least not because of my feet).

------
jasonkester
It still amazes me how climbing gear continues to find ways to improve every
year. The pads I land on and the shoes I climb in today are undeniably better
than the ones I was using just five years ago.

Take shoes. Here's what the brand new Scarpa Instinct looked like nine years
ago:

[https://www.climbing.com/gear/new-and-notable-scarpa-
instinc...](https://www.climbing.com/gear/new-and-notable-scarpa-
instinct-2010-gear-guide/)

Notice the tiny scrap of rubber they stuck on to the top of the thing. That
was revolutionary at the time. Today, that rubber takes over the whole upper
surface of the shoe. Here's a pair of mine in action last year:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcN3WETCDzM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcN3WETCDzM)

Trust me, I tried that problem quite a bit harder back before rubber-topped
shoes came into vogue, and there was no holding that toe hook. The method of
the day was to use your heel, which was, well, harder.

If you check out the shoe range of just that one company, you'll find that
this is like their fifth most technical shoe. Kept around because old timers
like me still like them.

~~~
justinator
What's funny is that I feel somewhat the opposite. Most revolutionary things
were developed right when I started (1996?) and now it's just incremental
changes. To wit: my favorite climbing shoe, the Sportiva Miura VS came out in
1996! They're still used for cutting edge climbing. The rubber was what was
really important to the shoe.

------
diego
Someone should invite that economist to a modern rock climbing gym. Then
explain every piece of technology that made those wall designs affordable and
commonplace in most major cities. Being able to train in state-of-the-art
facilities, focusing exactly on the moves you need to make, day and night,
rain or shine, that's crucial.

~~~
ummonk
Eh, I'm not too sure about that. Plastic is a poor substitute for real rock,
and seasonal climbers experience a noticeably marked atrophy of outdoor
climbing ability during the off-season when they are limited to gym climbing.

~~~
fingerlocks
Especially true if you predominantly climb cracks.

~~~
a1pulley
Username checks out

------
justinator
I surprisingly agree with the opinion put out. Shoes have made a night-and-day
difference. Also Alex was able to practice climbing indoors on artificial
walls no matter the weather outside, starting from an early age.

And also Alex is the very definition of an Outlier. Everything kind of came
together.

~~~
justinator
To maybe give an idea on how important those shoes that Alex wore were - or at
least how perfect they were for the ascent: the athlete that designed them
w/Sportiva, Tommy Caldwell put up all but two of the free routes on El Capitan
(so only 8 or so in total), including the hardest free route on the wall. The
shoes were effectively made for that one area.

~~~
aynyc
Huber Brothers did more than 2 (Freerider, Golden Gate, El Nino, Zodiac).
Skinner and Piana freed Salathe, Lynn freed the Nose. Most repeats aren't done
in TC Pros.

But yes, TC Pros are great.

------
WhompingWindows
Scale, scale, scale. There are FAR more rock climbers, and FAR more people
climbing El Cap than in the past. With ALL of those rolls of the dice, you're
bound to find a prodigy like Honnold (or Beethoven or whoever, pick your
field+prodigy).

More people, more scale, more chances at finding prodigious talent.

------
scarecrowbob
I think that the most recent reelrock with AH and TC speed climbing the nose
gives way more context on the same topic.

The technology really is the same in both the speed climb and the solo,; the
ability to catch long falls without much human intervention is the big deal in
being able to rehearse the moves at a point where they can be done "safely".

You can try to divorce technique (knowledge) from technology, but how we use a
tool is so much of what a tool is.

------
X6S1x6Okd1st
Not to mention that the sheer amount of people exposed to climbing is at least
10,000 times higher than it was when the first ascent took place.

------
jlittel
I think the fascinating takeaway from Cochrane piece, and this response
article, is how much innovation improves a person's performance, even if
indirectly. It's a great reminder of how hard it is to measure the effects of
technical innovation.

It's also amazing that even before some of these innovations (dynamic rope,
cams) how many people were able to climb incredibly tough routes. The
technology has opened the sport to people who enjoy the it but aren't so
interested in risking their lives on a second-by-second basis.

And as an aside, having climbed the Salathe route featured in the Free Solo
movie, I can't even begin to imagine the mindset you would need to consider
climbing it without protection.

------
kyleblarson
The comma between 'free' and 'solo' in the first sentence is unnecessary and
could actually imply a different style of climbing, rope soloing. see
[https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/keita-kurakami-makes-
fi...](https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/keita-kurakami-makes-first-all-
free-rope-solo-and-fifth-free-overall-ascent-of-the-nose/)

~~~
perfect_wave
On the top of solo, free climbing:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CikzYN0z4zU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CikzYN0z4zU)

Pete Whitaker's 1 day solo, free ascent of Freerider, the same route that
Honnold free solo'd in just a few hours.

------
tomxor
Not this again... flawed ideas built on an an extremely narrow and false
premise.

Previous discussion regarding the blogpost referred to in this article:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19914023](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19914023)

------
a1pulley
"And to return to Alex Honnold, perhaps the most important lesson a free-
market loving economist should draw is that sometimes people will do
extraordinary things without the motivation of money."

My dad likes to visit the same coffee shop every morning, where he sees more
or less the same people. He likes to show his friends pictures of his son on
big routes in Yosemite or the Andes, preferring the ones with dangling-
portaledge or freezing thousand-yard-stare shock value. They almost invariably
ask, "does he get paid for this?" I ask him how he restrains himself from
asking, "have you ever done anything for fun?"

~~~
Mikeb85
> sometimes people will do extraordinary things without the motivation of
> money

Spending money and doing things will always be more fun than earning money.
People earn money to spend it on pursuits like rock climbing, even if climbing
the rock itself is free, buying the equipment and taking time off to climb it
costs money, so those extraordinary things were done thanks to an earlier
motivation to make money.

~~~
nlfwhulsdhouv
Rock climbing has a very long and storied history of climbers living on
absolute scraps to get by, just so they can climb more. This persists in the
culture to this day. Yvonne Chouinard, depicted in the article, was one of
those climbers. He tells stories of eating catfood and stealing leftovers from
the hotels in Yosemite Valley to survive.

While you're right that making money helps people live an easier life more
able to do extraordinary things, climbing culture exemplifies those
extraordinary things are possible without it. Much of the development of
modern climbing was done with almost no money.

Read Steve Roper's "Camp 4".

~~~
justinator
I think the myth of the dirtbagger is a little played out. It makes for great
marketing though.

Post War America was a time of relative easy living, especially if you were
born in America, white, and a man (and were dodging the draft, too!)

~~~
ericmcer
It is a much different world now, My friends who did the dirtbag life are now
finding their hens coming home to roost in a major way as they hit their late
20s/early 30s. If you don't have wealthy parents or connections it is going to
be very difficult for someone with no degree and little work experience to
catch a break at that age.

The freewheeling artist/hippy lifestyle of that time period was probably
partially encouraged by how strong our economy was. Almost anyone could take
the "risk" of dropping out of the workforce for a time to explore their
spiritual side.

A white dude in his 30s with a high school diploma in the 70s-80s still had
plenty of opportunity to jump into the workforce and start down the road to
home ownership and family life.

~~~
mgfist
It's funny because the economy is currently in one of the longest bull runs
ever, and yet the above is no where near possible. The income inequality today
is staggering.

------
ct0
A lesser known free solo in El Potero Chico, Mexico done by Alex many years
back:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phl82D57P58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phl82D57P58)

~~~
jointpdf
Another great one is this documentary of the Fitz Roy Traverse by Honnold and
Caldwell. It’s a high alpine adventure rather than a free solo, but it’s a
different sort of amazing achievement to watch unfold.

[https://www.redbull.com/int-
en/episodes/AP-1MQAPEZX91W11](https://www.redbull.com/int-
en/episodes/AP-1MQAPEZX91W11)

~~~
_eric
Another one, even though it's not about Alex per se, but about Brad Gobright
(another great climber who loves to free solo) I'd recommend watching "Safety
Third". It's on vimeo[0] if anyone is interested.

[0]
[https://vimeo.com/ondemand/safetythird](https://vimeo.com/ondemand/safetythird)

------
natejenkins
An interesting point to note is that one of the world's strongest climbers,
who recently put up the hardest problem in Fontainebleau, is Charles Albert,
who spends most of his time climbing barefoot:
[https://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/climbing/charles-
albe...](https://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/climbing/charles-albert-at-
fontainebleau-climbs-world-s-second-9a-boulder-problem.html)

------
michjedi
A great article and a lovely author - he helped me develop some ideas on my
final year essay while I studied at the University of Sheffield, even though
he wasn't lecturing me.

------
nitwit005
Great article. I hadn't considered the physics of friction with rubber. I'd
known about the temperature link with other uses such as rubber bands.

------
hogFeast
Has anyone else found that people who are really into rock climbing always
feel the need to bring climbing up?

~~~
shantly
It the new skiing. Or maybe sailing and golfing, to a smaller extent. A thing
well-off professionals go do (and yes, not _just_ them, same as the other
things) then come back and talk about.

~~~
majos
But climbing’s a lot cheaper than those things. If you’re in a midsize city
you can get an unlimited gym membership for maybe $50 per month. Shoes,
generously will run you $200 per year. That’s $800 per year all-in. The
equipment alone, even without the travel or membership expenses, seems higher
for the other hobbies listed.

~~~
patejam
I agree with you as far as startup costs go.

But your example is only if you only boulder indoors. Costs add up quickly if
you want to move outdoors and want the flexibility to do a variety of climbs.

You can easily have a couple thousand dollars in gear.

Harness $70 Belay device $20-150 Rope $150+ (possibly multiple) Quickdraws
$10-14 each, you probably want a dozen or so. Some slings Some carabiners

That'll get you outside and working on bolted routes.

Then you get into climbs that don't have man made bolts that you can clip into
(trad climbing).

Each piece of protection at this level costs $60-80 new, and you'll probably
want like 10 of them at least.

And it goes on and on.

~~~
scarecrowbob
Yes and no. You can go a long time with very little gear.

I have a pretty nice trad rack, but most of the time I could get by with
shoes, harness, belay device, etc. just because I'm typically climbing with
other folks.

If you're learning to climb, then you really don't need the equipment beyond
personal stuff at all because your partners will have it.

Like, I haven't had to use my rack for about the last 3 months just because
the guy I was climbing with liked his better.

Not to mention that I have cams in my rack from the 90s... a lot of this stuff
lasts a very long time and has a reasonable used market.

IME, it is way cheaper than, say, lift-serviced skiing or golfing.

It's like anything else, you could spend a lot. You could also live in your
car and still afford to do this stuff.

