
Apple has removed us from the App Store - jorymackay
https://blog.rescuetime.com/rescuetime-for-ios-removed/
======
stordoff
I do appreciate the irony of a popup dialog covering the article promising to
"fight[...] distraction"

------
SQL2219
Baqend - CEO Felix Gessert:

“Our take is that, eventually, all native apps will disappear and be replaced
by web-based tools. This trend is just getting started and it might well be
that, in a few years, there won’t be any app stores and we’ll be back to how
it’s supposed to be in the first place: open web applications.

Now there are these gatekeepers, such as Apple, who have a hold over how the
technology works and how the marketing channels work, but once we are back to
some sort of open Web, other players such as startups will get fair chances
and space to grow.”

[https://thenextweb.com/entrepreneur/2018/11/06/8-tech-
predic...](https://thenextweb.com/entrepreneur/2018/11/06/8-tech-predictions-
that-will-define-2019-eit-digital-challenge/)

------
CodeSheikh
"using the persistent location API also allows us to use an acknowledged
acceptable way to capture when our users have active screen time." I am
confused, how is screen time correlated with user location? If you want to
check if a user is on the go and not using screen then there are other iOS SDK
API that you can use to determine that. Are you trying to determine if a user
is spending certain time on hhis/her phone during transit? Well, what if my
phone is on a holder while I am backing and it is showing me the route? What
if I am listening to Youtube videos while I am transiting with my eyes closed.

I am sorry, but location data has become a really hot topic to come in digital
privacy related debates. And your usage is not justified. I would love to use
your app but with "Always" flag off.

~~~
pedalpete
For example, if you regularly check app A from the coffee shop and spend x
amount of time in it vs checking app B at the bus stop and spend y amount of
time.

I don't know the people to whom this is a valuable bit of information, but I
don't know of the people who really want to know how much time they are
spending in different apps either.

------
SQL2219
It seems to me that you can't build a viable business and be so vulnerable.
Apple or Google can pull your plug anytime they see fit, for any reason they
want.

~~~
consultutah
RescueTime was originally a desktop app and works really well there. I can see
why they’d want to work on mobile as well. Hell, I’ll bet customers requested
it, but you can never forget whose garden you are playing in.

------
ccantana
I realize this would probably be a last resort, but I’ve heard success stories
of companies rallying their user bases to personally email the App Store on
behalf of the company (“hey, I love x app. It makes my experience with Apple
products so much better...”).

This could be a call to action included in the Rescuetime newsletter.

Despite their occasional authoritarian moments, Apple generally listens to
enough frustrated customers.

------
azdacha
Why is Google punished for forcing some of their tools in, and not Apple while
it is literally playing a market god ?

------
oakesm9
A related story:

Mute App: Startup to Shutdown by Nick Kuh
[https://link.medium.com/GVbEIzHhIR](https://link.medium.com/GVbEIzHhIR)

~~~
gnicholas
Yes, but also note the follow-up post, after Mute was reinstated:
[https://medium.com/@nick.kuh/apple-
called-a229d86ece30](https://medium.com/@nick.kuh/apple-called-a229d86ece30)

------
xte
AppStore is not a democracy, they decide to keep the power and people working
with them accept that Damocle sword.

Closed source comprehend such situation, FOSS does not.

------
kevsim
Can someone explain how this worked in the first place? I’m missing how
enabling location services helps them gather info on screen time spent

~~~
detaro
I'd guess the location tracking means their app is waken up regularly to
process location data. During that awake period, they can then check the
screen status, while otherwise the app would stay suspended and unable to
record this?

------
gnicholas
Out of curiosity, how much does it drain the battery to use this API? I
remember a period a few years ago where my battery was draining much faster
than normal, and eventually I realized it was because I hadn't properly ended
a workout on RunKeeper, which was tracking my location.

This was years ago, and probably on an older phone. Perhaps the newer phones
handle this more efficiently? I ask because I'd love to use one of these apps
but am wary of the battery impact.

~~~
laohu
It is not recommended to enable this capability on iPhone 6 generation and
older. Devices after that have on chip acceleration that makes it a minimal
drain... it was one of the big hardware advancements a few years back.

You can go download Moment from the App Store right now and find out :)

~~~
gnicholas
Yeah I'm going on a downloading spree to get all the ones that haven't been
yanked yet!

Related question: now that apps are not backed up when an iPhone is backed up
to a computer, is it possible to keep a removed-from-App-Store app when
upgrading from one iPhone to the next? Or will I lose all these apps (if they
are removed) when I get my next iPhone?

------
smurfdog
This is why we've stopped developing iOS apps years ago. Happened to us once,
won't ever happen again. Developing for iOS is extremely dangerous for your
business, as Apple may kick your app out any moment for _insert random reason
here_. I couldn't justify exposing my company to this risk anymore. History
shows, my decision was perfectly right. Luckily, there are plenty of other
business models that don't depend on Apple.

------
amelius
Just remember that being an iOS/AppStore developer is a lot like being a
driver for Uber. Your rights are close to zero.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
That’s a lazy comparison. The only meaningful choice you have with Uber is
when to drive.

A better comparison would be a general contractor in your city. You can build
for yourself, for others on spec, custom per customer, tract homes, etc. The
rules for where and how you can build are clearly laid out in advance in the
building code. You’ll need inspections and sign-offs from the building dept
that you’re following the building code. It’s sometimes annoying, and
occasionally unfair. But if you want to build in their jurisdiction, you play
by their rules. You’re welcome to go build in the middle of nowhere where
building codes are lax or non-existent, but guess what, there are no customers
there.

~~~
lazerwalker
I don't know why you're getting so heavily downvoted.

The only subtle tweak I'd make to your comparison is that Apple's rules are
_not_ clearly laid out in advance. In this specific case, Apple had previously
approved the same app for literally years, without a change in the relevant
rule they claim to now be enforcing. That same rule Apple claims they're now
in violation of is intentionally vague — it sort of hand-waves away what
behaviors Apple wants to allow or disallow location tracking for, giving
editors lots of leeway to turn a blind eye or not.

------
eklavya
Whether they are right or wrong in doing this, both play store and App Store
have too much power and govt/legal regulation of some kind is drastically
needed.

~~~
bigiain
To be fair - they're using the background location feature in a way that sucks
your battery flat much more quickly than normal.

Apple are most likely to cop the flack for that, and given a few recent poor
choices on Apple's part regarding making un-acknowledged changes to try and
maintain appearance of good battery life, it's not _too_ surprising they're
choosing to more heavily enforce rules in that area to reduce the number of
complaints that hit _their_ support lines which are directly attributable (but
not to the majority of iPhone owners) to people bending or breaking app store
rules...

~~~
eklavya
Please don’t get me wrong. I am absolutely “for” all the quality assurance and
privacy work done by Apple. But both the stores have become a very big part of
digital life everywhere. Google and Apple as gatekeepers have a lot of power
and decisions seem arbitrary and unfair a lot of times. I am pretty sure
everybody dealing with the stores have themselves experienced it first hand
and not always through their own faults. There needs to be at least some
regulation or legal framework for impartial grievance redressal.

------
ancorevard
Slightly related. Only a month ago I deleted my RescueTime account and the app
from my Mac. With all the privacy issues lately, I finally realized how much
data I'm sending RescueTime, and a made a decision.

I don't have a reason to mistrust them, but I also don't have a reason to give
them this much of my trust either. A breach of the RescueTime database would
be insanely invasive.

~~~
Avamander
Could someone please recommend a cross-platform self-hosted alternative to
ResueTime?

~~~
craftyguy
I'm not sure I'd even trust a self-hosted alternative. Presumably this would
need to be exposed to the internet, and would be a nice target for someone to
break into given how much information it collects.

~~~
exolymph
Wouldn't they have to target you personally, though? (I may be wrong about
that.) If so, doesn't factor into most people's realistic threat models.

~~~
craftyguy
Not necessarily, just need to find an exploit and start scanning for folks
hosting the service. Most would probably use some standard/default port for
it.

------
laohu
It is of note in this case that "misuse" is perfectly arbitrary. The
RescueTime app did use location, only locally on the device, to enrich the
information provided to users. It also happened to capture screen time,
obviously important to the app. Be clear here: Apple _has not said this aspect
is misuse_. Screen time recording is blessed by Apple. There are at least
three other apps active in the app store that do the same thing, and advertise
themselves as screen time management tools. It cannot be argued that location
is the primary reason the api is used for any of these, but it can be argued
that it is an important aspect. Just like RescueTime claims.

Apple's issue here is there is no consistency for "misuse" where misuse is
defined as location being secondary or primary to the API use. That is what
their review board is claiming, and it so far used in a capricious and anti-
competitive fashion.

Note: this is Mark from RescueTime.

~~~
mcfedr
Hi, I'm the lead developer of another app in the same space, we've also been
blocked from updating our app for several months now. Interesting to see that
this is happening to the the whole community of apps that compete with apples
own screen time.

The worst answer we've had to our use of the APIs has been "the API might
change in the future and your app might stop working" \- about the location
API

~~~
js4ever
This remember me when my free music app was kicked out of the store with 17
other free & legal music apps ... the exact same day when Apple music was
published... This is why I hate so much Apple and all their products now.

~~~
saagarjha
What reason did Apple provide when they pulled your app?

~~~
js4ever
If my memory is correct it was something like "low quality apps are not
allowed on the appstore" ... Even if I didn't submitted an update since months
and everything was running smoothly with 200k happy monthly users and very
high review ratings...

------
aaaaaaaaaab
You were misusing background location updates to periodically run your app in
the background. I bet you were also misusing some keychain API or similar, to
determine whether the device is locked or not, because there’s no official API
for that either.

You were misusing multiple APIs and hoped that the reviewers won’t notice.

Facebook used to play silent audio in the background to prevent their app from
being suspended. They got found out too and had to stop doing it. Suck it up!

I hope Apple would one day reject those apps that misuse silent push
notifications for uninstall tracking too.

~~~
leereeves
I haven't used this app, but it sounds like people who installed the app knew
about those features and wanted them.

If Apple is preventing developers from providing useful apps for arbitrary
technical reasons, that's Apple being bad, not the developer.

That's different from uninstall tracking that surprises users in a bad way.

~~~
aaaaaaaaaab
It’s not about surprising the user or not.

Ultimately, Apple gets to decide what is allowed and what isn’t. If I make a
handwarmer app that purposely runs the CPU at 100% I’m pretty sure Apple would
reject that too, even though it would be useful for users.

~~~
leereeves
Why should Apple be allowed to decide what runs on phones owned by other
people?

That's like letting appliance makers decide what food people can store or
cook, or letting phone makers decide who people can call.

I understand this is the status quo, we can also discuss whether it's right,
even if it's currently technically possible and legally permitted.

~~~
aaaaaaaaaab
Actually you can run anything you want, just can’t distribute it via the
AppStore. Anyone with a Mac can compile any app themselves and install it via
Xcode.

And it’s not like iPhones are being forced onto people. People go out of their
way to buy iPhones... Maybe there is some merit to these Draconian rules? Just
look at the sorry state of the Google Play Store with all the low-effort
adware or outright maliscious crap.

~~~
leereeves
Being able to put any food you cook yourself in a refrigerator isn't the same
as being able to put any food you want in it. Nor is being able to run any
code you write yourself the same as being able to run anything you want.

~~~
aaaaaaaaaab
You can run pre-built binaries via Xcode. You just need to re-sign it with
your developer certificate and voila, you can deploy whatever you want on your
phone.

------
CharlesW
> _Critically, using the persistent location API also allows us to use an
> acknowledged acceptable way to capture when our users have active screen
> time._

They're admitting to using background location to infer screen time, which is
clearly "misuse" according to section 2.5.4. Whether the decision is right or
wrong, I find it hard to believe that the developer is actually confused by
this.

~~~
rando444
The app has a feature that allows you to see _where_ you are spending your
time on your phone. This could be helpful to get an idea about time wasted at
work vs. commuting by train or whatever.

I'm not going to say it's super useful, but it has a use.. I would categorize
this in the same bucket as Snapchat needing your GPS.

Anyway, the complaint is that they are using this data for more than features
and functionality.

Their side of the story leads me to believe this is not the case, and only
Apple knows why they think this company is abusing the data they are
collecting.

~~~
tptacek
You can almost always make that claim about any sneaky use of a platform
feature. The test that will be used to determine compliance is whether the
intended, expected use of the feature complies, not with whether there are
_any_ compliant uses.

~~~
privateSFacct
Exactly this. App developers are constantly saying, I need all your location
data for one tiny sliver of a reason or another.

If you are a map app, location data is fine.

If you are tracking screen time, then no.

Apple's is targeting folks like my parents here. They love that apple just
works, no crazy secret battery drains etc. Even the subtle prompts apple gives
(the little arrow outline etc) is NOT ENOUGH for folks like my parents. It
needs to follow logically from what they are doing (no buried menus / advanced
features). Apple largely delivers on this. Check out an older person using an
android phone with a total ton of apps (and android 3-5 years old, older folks
upgrade MUCH more slowly). It's a honking mess. Seriously the battery life
goes into the trash, the phone has got a billion things running on it.

Apple is making BIG money focusing pretty strictly on privacy. The idea that
they are doing this to avoid competitors to screen time (which they make no
extra money on) is ludicrous.

------
debt
Apple has a very interesting approach to these type of app monopolies.

It "nationalizes" the monopoly app by creating a generic version of the same
app.

The problem is, the generic app versions are exceptional in that they have
much deeper access to the phone than a traditional independently built App
Store app.

Seems unfair.

~~~
petepete
Apple aren't interested in an even playing field, this type of muscling in is
possible by design. There's a risk they'll turn developers off their platform,
but providing they don't piss off too many at once, barely anyone will notice.

~~~
OedipusRex
I mean both iPhone and Android do this but Google won’t pull competitors.

~~~
pmontra
Even if the did, we can still sideload apps by sending the apk to the phone
and installing it. No root/jailbreak needed.

------
lostmsu
I still wonder how is this legal.

~~~
whalesalad
How could it be illegal? If you sold bread in a grocery store and the grocery
store decided they preferred their own brand and didn't wanna sell yours
anymore... would that be illegal?

~~~
lostmsu
It should be if there are 3 grocery stores in the country, and your bread
can't be sold by other 2. This is a great case to be a precedent.

~~~
akmiller
Really only 2 grocery stores in the world! The other stores are rare places
that not many visit.

~~~
anoncake
In fact, it's just one grocery store, and it owns the country. You're "free"
to use any other store, you just have to emigrate first.

------
writepub
Time for some anti-trust regulations on the app store.

In the "mobile apps" market, Apple is an overwhelming monopoly with 66% market
share [1]. Some stats:

\- Total app store market revenues for 1st half (1H) of 2018: ~$33B

\- Apple's app-store revenue for 1H-2018: $22B

\- Apple's market share: 66%

They constantly abuse their power and stifle competition by:

1\. Banning apps (this app, steam streaming, ....)

2\. Stifling the iOS browser's compliance with W3C spec, to force developers
into their app store.

The EU and FTC should have ample data to stop this abuse.

[1]: [https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/16/apples-app-store-
revenue-n...](https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/16/apples-app-store-revenue-
nearly-double-that-of-google-play-in-first-half-of-2018/)

~~~
ancorevard
This is not an abuse of power. This is looking out for their users' privacy.

I would have thought most people at this time would know that Apple does not
take lightly a situation where an app is sending lots of privacy related user
behavior to some kind of server somewhere. At a minimum, store this analytics
on the phone only. But then again, you may use APIs for reasons other than
their intended purpose.

~~~
cromwellian
Shouldn't I have the choice? If you paid $1000 for a phone, and were using and
enjoying this app, and suddenly, it can no longer be updated, because Apple
says they want to 'protect' me, why can't I be given the control to decide
whether or not I want this protection?

After all, there are permissions dialogs. If an app needs location data, and
asks me for it, why can't I decide to grant permission of the app to use it
for _novel_ new use cases like screen time management?

This not only inhibits innovation, it takes away my own agency and ownership
of my, very expensive, device.

This kind of nanny state, closed source, locked down stuff used to cause
everyone to rebel on HN. We'd have people quoting Richard Stallman, etc.

These days, it seems like HN has abandoned a lot of its original culture, and
is totally willing to cede control of computing to a proprietary, locked down,
centralized control mechanism that permits no exploration or hacking, and
certainly no forking.

Can't we protect users AND allow them to make informed decisions? What if I
_want_ to use a battery draining service? There's lots of games that will nuke
your battery very fast. Hell, the Camera app on my iPhone 6 used to drain my
battery fast.

And hanging over this is the spectre that once again, this is Apple killing
off third party apps that compete with iOS 12's own built in screen time
management features.

~~~
saagarjha
> Can't we protect users AND allow them to make informed decisions?

Unfortunately, the answer to this question currently seems to be “no”. I have
not found a system that both allows people to have “choice” and also prevents
the average user from messing up their device.

~~~
cromwellian
The OpenWeb seems to work pretty well, at least from the standpoint of not
getting viruses or malware from it. You could argue about tracking users, but
it’s not like the native Facebook iOS doesn’t collect lots of data on you.

~~~
monocularvision
The app pulled is impossible on the web.

