

Depression and feeling like an outsider - depreseddev
http://blog.jonathan.sh/depression-and-feeling-like-an-outsider

======
trustfundbaby
I can speak to you as a black guy in tech ... and just let you know that what
you're feeling is not weird. Being black in tech can be very isolating, and
being an entrepreneur can be much much worse, I know because I've been there.

I've know the feeling of going to conferences and having to be super friendly
and way more jovial than you feel is normal just to get conversations going,
all the while feeling like a phony inside. I know how it is to have coworkers
stop inviting you to lunch after a while not realizing, that from the outside
you've been excluded from a 'clique'. I know the feeling of people either
thinking you're not friendly and avoiding you, or that you don't know shit and
avoiding you, or worse being patronizing to you.

I remember trying to be friendly with everyone and having people kinda just
... ignore me. It hurts and can make you retract into a shell. At work, that
makes things worse, because then you get tagged as "not a team player"

It can really really suck, but what you have to do is not let that beat you
and make a strong effort to go and find people that you can get along with and
cleave closely to them. The gift of the situation is that you can actually get
some really close friends, because people that vibe with you probably don't
vibe that well with others in your field. They'll probably share the same
frustrations and fears as you and they'll look out for you.

So pick your head up and go back out there and do it all over again, don't
stop doing what you're doing, but instead of spreading yourself thin trying to
befriend everyone, think of yourself as an acquired tast. Be more selective
with the people you approach, try to build the deep friendships that will
first help you not feel isolated. then from there you can go on to just be
yourself, and everything should just work out.

cheers

------
jokoon
1\. try an antidepressant, keep taking it without changing the dosage. try
this for at last one year.

2\. when you feel down and you're feeling worse and worse, try going out and
walking for at least 15 or 45 min, or find something to do. breathe. don't
stay in one place. don't let immobility and routine drown you. if you can do
something that can make you move and make memories, you should do it.
depression is a brain which is being less and less active. make it work and
sense stuff.

3\. try to see the good sides of your situation. you live in a developed
country, you eat every day, you have a minimum of education. in many
countries, people don't know what the Pythagorean theorem is.

4\. if you're young, feeling down is normal. be thankful you're not part of
the people who are diagnosed with major depression, or with veterans who have
PTSD or any other trauma.

5\. depression is normal in our era. there was a recession, and the economy is
going towards less human contact. that should mean bigger opportunity for
people who have the courage to seek human contact.

~~~
agumonkey
Walking 45 minutes is a free medicine. Hills especially, by the time you reach
the top, the euphoria may already be there, in sync with the view. Quite
pretty. Forests aren't bad either.

~~~
goshx
My cardiologist once said that simply standing up for 30 minutes would do
better than any SSRI. I didn't get it at first and ended up taking SSRI for
almost a year due to panic attacks, until I managed to replace it with surf
fishing. I'd wake up early, go to the beach, watch the sunrise and stay there
for a few hours standing up...

------
jrapdx3
Having treated thousands of patients with depression, I appreciate the courage
it takes for the author to "open up" about his experience during an episode of
depression.

Adding to the other comments made, I'd emphasize major depression is a serious
illness, every bit as "physical" as other diseases. It's a leading cause of
disability worldwide, and affects >8% of the American population any given
year. The economic burden of depression in the US is truly staggering: costing
the nation nearly $200 billion a year.

Depression often responds to one or more forms of treatment. Medications can
often help but significant side effects are a risk. Psychotherapies, CBT and
interpersonal therapy have proven effect. Exercise, nutritional factors, light
exposure, social support have all been shown to be beneficial to some degree.

The most important thing to do is seek competent help from one or more
resources. There is no simple or singular "answer" to a hugely complex
problem. There's no recipe or formula that will work the same in any two
people.

Treatment has to be "custom fit" for each person, that is the art of medicine
in the real world. Finding what works may not be quick or easy, but the effort
usually pays off. No cure is promised, but most patients do make progress.

Success may not be easy, but I am stubborn, insist on keeping at it, using
every tool at our disposal, and say "it's not a failure until we stop trying".

------
sramsay
The OP actually has an extraordinary amount of what psychiatrists call
"insight" concerning his condition. That is to say, he is not only depressed,
but knows he is.

It might sound utterly implausible that someone could be clinically depressed
and not know it, but I think that's the more common circumstance. People
experiencing depression very often can't see that _depression_ is the problem.
They think the reason they feel worthless is because they're worthless; the
reason they're listless is because they're lazy; the reason they don't want to
be around people (when they normally would) is because people don't like them.

So to be able to put a name to this -- to say, "Wait. This isn't right. None
of this is normal" is _huge_ step forward. Same goes for mania (which can make
you feel euphoric or angry and irritable).

Some never get to the point of realizing that there's something wrong and it's
not their fault (any more than having asthma would be their fault). And some
of those people die from this potentially deadly illness.

~~~
jamesdelaneyie
How can you help people who don't realize this and would refuse any suggestion
to seek advice? I fear my mother might be struggling with this since she was
laid off last year but actively refuses to have conversations about how she
might feel. 1/4 of my blame lies in Irish culture however :/

~~~
sramsay
It's tough! (And I can relate to you on the Irish cultural issues as well,
since my mother is from Ireland and I grew up mainly around Irish people).

Mostly, it's a matter of getting them through the psychiatrist's door.
Hearing, "I think you might be depressed" or "Why don't you go see someone"
\-- however you frame it -- is going to be tough to hear from a son. A
therapist, though, knows how to ask the right questions, and since they're a
neutral third party, they're much more likely to get a person to admit that
there's a problem, and that the lost job may have been merely the catalyst for
what is now a medical problem.

Depression is less and less stigmatized in the US (I don't know about the
situation in Ireland). But in a sense, that doesn't matter. It's the person's
own self-stigmatization that is the problem. They don't think they have a
medical problem; they think they're worthless, sad, listless, and perhaps
"crazy." Going to a psychiatrist will automatically mean that they _are_
crazy.

I am not a mental health professional, but in my view, it's worth trying any
trick you can think of to get them through the door. Maybe that means a
group/family intervention (and maybe _that_ means she's angry at the entire
family for some period of time). Maybe it means cutting deals ("If you just
make this one appointment, I'll never mention it again."). Maybe it means an
emotional appeal ("Please, please do this for me.").

Whatever the case, extreme measures sometimes are necessary. Because -- and I
don't mean to frighten you -- this is a _deadly_ illness. People commit
suicide every year because they see absolutely no reason to go on. A
heartbreaking number of those people were suffering from a treatable
condition.

------
jonalmeida
First of all, you're just plain fucking awesome you don't know it yet. I feel
like I've meet the exact same people who aren't welcoming to people who are
new and learning. The solution is simple, leave and find a different set of
people/meetup. I've gone for meetups that are plainly a bunch of people in
suits looking to make money of someone else's idea, and I've never returned
again. Be courteous and leave, because they aren't looking out for any else's
interest except their own.

I just got back from a hackathon myself, and I was lucky enough to meet a
majority of people that were just excited to met others and learn new things.
Look for people similar to yourself in those situations and try to start with
small amounts of positive "what if?" questions to yourself when you get
questions like that OR teach yourself to plain ignore that memory of your
interactions with those people - it's not worth your time caring about it.

Good luck and hope to hear more from you!

------
subdane
The post is ostensibly about depression and race, but this quote really stuck
out for me, "All this happened simply because, for once, I felt that there was
someone who didn’t treat me the same way everyone else did." Who hasn't longed
to feel that same connection? I've always loved the outsideriness of hacker
culture and I hope we don't lose it. What potential would we unlock if we
embraced our differences instead of policing the border?

------
felixrabe
My 2 cents Jonathan - I've done this, and it might help, but I don't know you
(yet) so maybe not:

There's people who make you feel better, and others who make you feel worse.
Spend more time with the former, and less time with the latter. One by one,
more people like Michael will help you realize you that you belong.

Yes for screaming! There was a super-dark time in my life where I literally
did not know where to go. I was in my car, on some off road, being totally
crazy and screaming and crying out loud. Did I have a choice? Actually no, it
was unbearable. I don't know what would have happened if I didn't have a safe
place to go wild in this way. After this, I was glad to know someone to call
then.

------
websitescenes
This is a serious issue with our "industry". Too much ego and dogmatic belief.
Many developers keep to themselves and don't share for the fear of someone
else knowing more or to maintain some perceived edge.

------
d0ugie
I am bipolar. Right now I am in a fluctuating depressive episode I am trying
with my several drugs to escape without, and this is tricky, without flying
into mania. Usually I am on top of this - happily married, good job, good
life, haven't been psychotic in many years. Episodes generally minor in depth
or elevation, brief, and few and far between.

But right now I am not on point and it's affecting my job, and my perception
of how good it is and possibly a major decision I might make under the
influence, if you will, of too little or too much serotonin, whether or not to
jump ship in pursuit of greener pastures or some strong paranoia that I will
be fired or that my team's project will get canned.

I am disengaged, not enjoying it, disengaged socially from my team, I am way
behind in my email (work and personal), I ducked out at 2pm today to go lie in
bed, I am unsure if I am dissatisfied because I have good reason to be or if
my perception is distorted by the depression.

My Zoloft kicked in last week and I felt as though I had the best and most
productive two days in a row, following two sick days I felt compelled to
take. So another challenge is to figure out whether my suddenly improved
impression of my job was distorted by hypomania. Bipolars need to be careful
with SSRIs, but a calculated risk for me now.

Bipolar is dangerous to disclose. But I fear I may be testing my boss's
patience and disclosure would buy me latitude _but_ I'd only do that
concealing that I am struggling with manic depression, rather just garden
variety depression. Or with levity, that I have a tummy ache, but in my mind.

I guess I'll try to correct myself medically and keep my mouth shut, and
consider having this in my back pocket if I leave early one too many times.
Though my boss and team are smart people, and many people have some
familiarity with mental illness, so my money's on his already knowing I have a
few screws loose. Which might be why he didn't inquire about the nature of my
sudden illness, instead being quite accomodating even on my request for second
day. I'm grateful for that, though I can't help but read into that.

One thing I envy about gays, in addition to their charisma and fashion sense,
is how much less trapped in their closet than I am in mine (or so I suspect).
Gays don't have a reputation for going postal. People fear bipolar folks even
if they are "high functioning" and treated enough to blend in. I guess I would
too in their shoes.

Wow that was long, sorry, but my sudden loquaciousness is a sign I may be
escaping my depressive episode in this therapeutic comment box. Thanks, Hacker
News! ;)

~~~
pajaroide
Tianeptine might help:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianeptine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianeptine)

------
depressedtoo
I really identified with your post. And I'm jealous of your courage.

I had a lot of crappy stuff happen when I was younger, and I still struggle
with depression and anxiety from it.

I wrote about it once. But anonymously:
[http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/pedagogyofthedepressed.html](http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/pedagogyofthedepressed.html)

I don't think I could succeed, professionally, if I had that kind of thing out
there under my real name. And it really hurts, to feel like you have this
secret you have to carry around lest people refuse to hire you.

I can't begin imagine what it must be like to also then be part of an
underrepresented group. But I admire your bravery.

------
rdlecler1
I'm not black. I'm a white male. I have five degrees including a PhD from an
Ivy League school, I've been published in nature twice, Harvard Business
Review, bla bla bla. All great on paper. But if you meet me in person, you'd
never know that. I come across as a person of average intelligence (at best!),
and I can tell you that I've always (at least at first) been treated like an
outsider in high performing circles. I remember my second year of computer
science when we had our first big group assignment, and no one wanted me in
their group because they assumed I was a slacker of low average intelligence.
Little did they know at the time that I was one of the top programmers in the
class. Eventually everyone found out, and you know what, they liked me even
more for it. But it's an uphill battle whenever you are different.

That said, I'm not walking in your shoes. Maybe it would be the same, or maybe
it would be 10x worse or 100x worse. What may help is two pieces of advice:
(1) when you're in high performing circles if you don't talk and act like
others in your group they'll assume that you're an outsider. Ironically,
humans are simply not smart enough to look beyond the first set of superficial
data points before they make a decision and so people react according to their
experience. It may not be right, but it is. So if you're entering a foreign
group and you WANT to be accepted, then you're going to need to act in a way
that is familiar to them. (2) Something I heard once from Indra Nooyi: "Always
assume positive intent". That is, sometimes people think negatively about us,
and sometimes we read into things. If you think that people have good
intentions then try to make the second your null hypothesis. Even if you're
wrong you may win some of these people over, and when you're right you may
give people important benefit of the doubt.

~~~
justguessingbut
I see that one of the Nature publications was the endometrial cell transposon
work in Nature Genetics - may I enquire as to the other publication?

~~~
rdlecler1
Survival of The Sparsest, in Nature's Systems Biology.

------
frontline
it's kind of telling that he posts about alienation rooted in this community
excluding him and most of the responses here are telling him how he can change
himself

------
jgrowl
People that become programmers have a tendency to have very poor interpersonal
skills. Some of us gravitate to programming because it lets us limit our
amount of human contact, for others it gives us something to feel superior
about.

I can't claim to fully understand what the author is feeling but I can
empathize. I am an average looking white guy and I also feel like a complete
outsider.

I guess I've mostly given up on fitting in at this point. I rather be alone
than feel the anxiety of trying to fit in with a group. I want people to be
happy, healthy, and successful... just at a distance.

------
namuol
Here's a trick that has sometimes helped pull me out of ruts:

Once a day, find three _new_ things to be grateful for or about.

These things don't need to be anything monumental -- the idea is to force
yourself to _search_.

I'll admit that at first, this can feel self-condescending or humiliating --
but bear in mind this is between you and yourself. Treat it like a game; try
approaching it tactically. After a few days of trying it, it seemed to work
for me. Some studies have found that keeping a journal[1] enhances the effect.

This shouldn't be confused with incessant "positive thinking" (which is
generally bad advice[2]). The key difference is that you're not suppressing
negative thoughts or trying to "drown them out" with positive ones; it's
merely a brief, daily exercise.

Of course, this obviously isn't a cure-all for depression; just another tool
for your toolbox. You should seriously consider therapy if you haven't tried
it yet.

[1]
[http://lesswrong.com/lw/i0c/for_happiness_keep_a_gratitude_j...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/i0c/for_happiness_keep_a_gratitude_journal/)

[2] [http://www.forbes.com/sites/janbruce/2013/11/19/how-
positive...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/janbruce/2013/11/19/how-positive-
thinking-creates-more-problems-than-it-solves/)

------
aaron987
I have mild depression, and one of the best treatments I have found is martial
arts. Physical activity in general is helpful, but martial arts in particular
has a very calming effect. Most people assume it has something to do with
pounding the crap out of a punching bag, but it is more than that. There is a
big emphasis on overcoming your limits, and this has a very positive effect on
self-esteem.

It also teaches you how to look inward at your own flaws. In martial arts, if
you can't do a technique, there are no teammates to blame. It's on you to
persevere and keep trying until you get it right. But you don't want to hurt
your training partner, so you have to stay calm and focused no matter how
frustrating it gets. And when you do get it, it feels amazing. That confidence
and calmness carries over into other areas of your life, and you feel like a
million bucks.

A few other students in my class told me that it had a similar effect on them.
To be clear, it won't replace proper medical treatment, especially for severe
depression. But I highly recommend it as an additional form of treatment.

------
paulwithap
Blaming your lack of fitting in on being black, and buying into this bullshit
your head is telling you is your real problem.

I've felt the exact same way you describe in this post, but instead of
"black", insert "short", "ugly", or any number of excuses I can come up with
for why I don't fit in, and people don't like me, and it's not fair, and it's
everyone else's fault. Bullshit. People aren't friendly to you because as a
severely depressed person, you're probably a real bummer to be around. You
probably look awkward, uncomfortable, and generally unapproachable.

You need to stop blaming society for your isolation and start working on
shifting your shitty perspective. Some things that have helped me immensely
are exercise and mindfulness meditation. Talking about your feelings helps too
- as long as the people listening aren't just going to co-sign and feed into
the depressive, self-pitying garbage that you're spitting out.

P.S. Feel free to contact me if you want to change.

~~~
jimmynotjim
Wow, all this time, all these people that have been suffering, they could have
been cured with some positivity. We should probably start telling everyone and
put a stop to all that "self-pittying garbage". If only they knew this crazy
secret, maybe we wouldn't have lost so many amazing people to suicide.

Yes, "shitty perspective" doesn't help the way people treat you, but that's
exactly why depression is so dangerous. It's this inward spiral of worsening
and worsening conditions and no matter how "positive" you try to stay, there's
no chance of swimming against that current. I mean, did we learn nothing from
Robin Williams. Dude was nothing but positive on the outside, while inside he
was obviously suffering horribly.

How about instead of blaming Jonathan (or anyone else suffering from
depression), you acknowledge the real danger that depression presents. Shit,
that's half the problem right there. There's such a large stigma surrounding
depression that people are afraid to even try to open up never mind getting
treatment. Your comment only proves those inner fears are true, which
ironically makes it that much worse.

Lastly, just because someone co-signs your depression, doesn't mean they're
feeding in to it or even that they're opinion will even have any affect on it
worsening or improving. You know what does make it worse though, ignorant
comments on the internet telling you it's all in your head and there's this
"one simple hack" to eradicating it.

~~~
paulwithap
I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who has actually suffered from
severe, crippling depression, and in my experience, the greatest danger is
feeding into this fantasy world the depressed mind conjures. My post is
acknowledging this "real danger".

I also never claimed there was "one simple hack". As someone who deals with
depression on a daily basis, I offered what I think are a few of the most
important tactics for keeping it at bay.

I speak from experience, so please don't write off my comment as "ignorant".

------
golemotron
This is one of the most important things a person who feels like an outsider
can read. Even people who are not depressed fell that way. It's a basic part
of the experience of being human - but you can see past it.

C.S. Lewis - The Inner Ring

[http://www.lewissociety.org/innerring.php](http://www.lewissociety.org/innerring.php)

------
ytNumbers
Generally speaking, tech groups are not as friendly as non-tech groups. I'd
recommend getting involved with some non-tech groups. There are so many worthy
causes to volunteer for. And, if that's not your thing, there are plenty of
groups that are all about having fun. In any case, don't rush to judgement on
any group. I've found that if you show up enough times to a group's events,
then you will be seen as a "regular", and that means many people in the group
will be much friendlier towards you. I'm suggesting that you try lots of
things, and don't rush to any conclusions. There have been plenty of instances
in my life where I thought about quitting an activity, and today I'm so glad I
didn't. Our world contains people who are able to climb Mount Everest. You
might be shocked to find out how vast your capabilities really are.

~~~
mjcohen
Three things which I like: dance (my favorites are west coast swing, waltz,
foxtrot, and salsa), poetry (even if you don't write, go to readings), and
improv. Lessons are important both for learning and becoming part of a group.

------
depreseddev
Those of you writing messages to the OP - I'm not the OP. I followed his feed
after his last depression post because I deal w depression too. I sent him a
note to let him know I posted to HN - dunno if he saw it. He's usually active
on twitter so I would message there if you want to reach out.

------
beering
Sounds like there's a mix of imposter syndrome and minority status somewhere
in there, and each can make the other worse.

And attitude can really affect how we perceive ambiguous reactions from other
people. If you think you're a ninja rockstar, you're going to ignore the tepid
responses that might discourage someone with a weaker ego. I think we could
all do well to be more inviting and encouraging, especially if we organize or
attend meetups. Meetups in my area each have reputations for how friendly or
how stuck-up they are: Ruby is pretentious, JavaScript is welcoming, PHP is
warm and casual, Python is somewhat neutral. But sometimes it's just one
person who tilts the entire meetup.

------
andersthue
Feeling like you belong/the sense of belonging is a very powerful feeling that
is hard to find, especially if you haven't learned it as a kid.

Brene Brown has some excellent advice on this, watch her TED talks, they are
rather good!

------
crazypyro
As someone around the same age, this problem of depression seems to have
affected almost everyone I know our age at some point. It is normal to feel
depressed and down, especially at this age. I don't claim to have any answers,
but as my best friend is going through a similar depression episode at the
very moment, the article stuck a chord with me. My only advice is just to
remember your situation can be changed in a short amount of time. People tend
to get stuck into routines and not realize the vast amount of freedom they
actually have, especially when they are young and free to do almost anything.

~~~
alexanderss
Yes, you're right. Depression is more common than AIDS, cancer, and diabetes
combined; and nearly 400,000 people attempt suicide in the US every single
year. Those are only the cases medically documented. Depression and suicide
are more prevalent in high socioeconomic environments and nations with higher
quality of life. Depression is actually more likely to make you an insider
than an outsider.

This author fixates on his local software developer and entrepreneur peers
(depression can make it difficult to perceive interpersonal interactions
objectively) but what he doesn't realize about them is that if you're lucky
enough to be born in a country where you can pursue software and
entrepreneurship as a teenager (especially in a world-class city full of
opportunities like Boston where he lives now) you're MORE likely to be
depressed or suicidal than the majority of the world's population who could
only dream of having the life and access he has. They experience the same
thing, and he is far from alone.

------
rubyfan
I haven't been black but I have been an entrepreneur and I have been depressed
(at the same time). Being a hacker and an entrepreneur is extremely isolating.
You are literally forging a path forward and everyone is a doubter and a hater
and you'll find very few people who will believe in you. Don't let that stop
you - build something you believe in, solve a problem, find someone who will
pay you and then do it again faster.

It sounds like you know this already but you _must_ hang in there. The feeling
will pass with time... let it pass.

------
chmike
You are fully right that a good relationship is what makes you feel you exist
and that life is worth it. Sometime you are lucky and find excellent
relationship partners and sometimes it's so so.

There is something you wrote in your text that caught my attention. What do
you mean by feeling exploding inside ? Is this like a strong tension inside ?
Like the opposite of depression ? Could it be a light form of bipolarity ?

------
pnathan
It can be very hard sometimes to separate out the "Reality" thoughts vs.
"We're all doomed" thoughts. There is a difference, often.

------
nyxtom
I wonder which community he was referring to that he felt so alienated from.
Some communities have a lot of cynicism built into it for some reason.

~~~
jkym
I recognize the writer from an excellent talk he gave on C extensions at
BostonRB not too long ago. He struck me as a really talented and smart guy.

------
DanBC
It's always weird to see the amount of well meaning but misguided medical
advice tossed out by people who have no medical training and who probably
haven't been reading the research.

Here's what should happen if you were in England:
[http://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg90](http://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg90)

------
xutopia
I'm glad I got to read this. People should see the struggles others have to go
through. Thanks for sharing!

------
brogrammer90
You shouldn't care about the egos you run into at these meetups and
hackathons. The majority of them were the beta males of their high schools and
haven't accomplished anything other than having 50 followers on github.

------
mindcrime
Sorry to hear about your situation. If it helps, I can relate somewhat, as a
founder who has struggled with depression at times. I wish I had some magic
incantation to give you to help, but unfortunately I don't. I can say this
though:

1\. If you ever just need somebody to talk to, feel free to give me a shout.

2\. Fish-oil is widely considered to be an effective over-the-counter /
natural supplement that helps with depression. I've used it before and seen
noticeable results.

3\. Regarding feeling like an outsider: Maybe you _are_ an outsider. And maybe
that's not a bad thing at all. Maybe consider a worldview where your outsider
status is irrelevant or even a positive. Try reading _The Fountainhead_ or
some Nietzsche for inspiraton?

4\. You may find some value in reading the philosophy of the Stoics[1]. _The
Meditations_ [2] by Marcus Aurelius might be a worthwhile read.

[1]: [http://www.iep.utm.edu/stoicism/](http://www.iep.utm.edu/stoicism/)

[2]:
[http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html](http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html)

~~~
benaiah
I'd be cautious recommending Nietzche to the depressed.

~~~
frontline
or the fountainhead to anyone

