
What's a $4000 Suit Worth? - gphil
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/09/magazine/whats-a-4000-suit-worth.html?pagewanted=all
======
patio11
_Frew, who apprenticed with a Savile Row tailor, can — all by himself, and
almost all by hand — create a pattern, cut fabric and expertly construct a
suit that, for about $4,000, perfectly molds to its owner’s body. In a city
filled with very rich people, he quickly had all the orders he could handle._

You don't have to be Wall Street to figure out the bleedingly obvious solution
to being a starving artist who has so much work they have to turn work away.
Raise the prices. Then raise the prices. Then when you're done with that,
raise the prices.

At some point you'll be too expensive for the typical businessman, which will
make you absolutely crack for a certain type of person common in New York,
thus defeating all efforts at being less busy. So it goes. I guess you will
have to raise prices.

~~~
asr
No offense, but this could be really bad advice. Maybe the customers who'd pay
10k for a suit won't go to some guy's living room for fittings. Or maybe the
price of top bespoke tailors in town is comparable, because they make better
use of lower-paid assistants. Or maybe, to convince a bank to make the loan he
needs to move into a nicer place, he needs to show the bank he has a large
backlog of orders. Or maybe he's in the middle of following your advice, just
raised his price, and will shortly raise it again because he's still getting
enough orders.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying we don't get nearly enough
information to decide! And that's ok, because that's not the point of the
article.

~~~
patio11
Totally not offended by that comment, but I strongly disagree.

It is entirely possible that he's found the correct price for a suit: two
hours' labor for his core customers. It is entirely possible that the devs who
tell me their clients won't pay more than $20 an hour for Rails programming
are accurate, and that they're correct in thinking that they're not skilled
enough to work for better clients. It is entirely possible that the Rampaging
Monster of Doubt actually understands how banks do loan underwriting better
than e.g. the banker who you could confirm or reject that hypothesis in a five
minute phone call.

But _that is not the way I will bet_. We're pathologically bad at this. Hiya,
freelancer on HN: to a first approximation, you don't charge enough.
Seriously. No information required to make that call. (This is said from a
place of love. I don't charge nearly enough, either.) This guy, who produces
things which rich people love and try to shove money at him for, so much so
that _he cannot afford to even talk to the rich people to take their money_
because he is so busy? This guy has our problem, too.

Starving artists who are starving because they produce something nobody wants
to pay for are one problem. Starving artists who are starving because they
think that they are a precious snowflake immune to Microeconomics 101 are an
entirely different problem. They just need business sense.

The point of the article is to cry a bit about how the market economy is
making true craftsmanship economically non-viable. (It practically tries to
club you over the head with that conclusion.) The article _is wrong_. It has
identified a problem to which there exists a _trivial solution that will
work_.

~~~
wolfhumble
From the last part of the article I quote the following: "Even the richest
customer simply has to wait — sometimes months — before the new suit is
finished. No wonder so many pass up a $4,000 bespoke suit for a ready-to-wear
Kiton version at twice the price."

So customers are clearly willing to pay more, but they are not too keen on
waiting two months for the suit.

I guess there are clients that buy a given amount of suits every year and have
time to wait, but there are other clients that buy a suit when they need one
and do not think 2+++ months up front.

The question is if the former group is large enough to sustain his business,
and if they are willing to pay more than $4,000. The latter group have clearly
the dough, but don't want to wait, so they are really not a segment he can
focus on.

So while hiking the price might work, it might be that the real problem here
is time to market.

Edit: Spelling

~~~
tptacek
Direct benefit of drastically increasing pricing to best fit offering to
profit curve: ability to hire skilled labor to accelerate delivery of offering
to customers.

~~~
wolfhumble
Without going to full automation I guess there are basically two process
options here: 1) Add more tailors that work with the suit from start to
finish, thus duplicating the work of the lone tailer Mr. Peter Frew in the
article.

2) Split the process of Mr. Frew's work among different tailors.

One other company mentioned in the article, Greenfield, is implementing option
2): ". . . there are huge efficiency gains when one complex process is broken
down into constituent parts and each worker specializes in one thing. At
Greenfield, one worker sews pockets all day long, and another focuses entirely
on joining front and back jacket pieces."

According to the article their suits sells for $2000.

Without testing it out it is hard to say if process option 1) will necessarily
be seen as more valuable than process option 2) from the customers
perspective. It is also hard to say if Greenfield's suits are of lower quality
compared to those of Mr. Frew.

At the end of day the story the tailor(s) can create about their workmanship
are as important as the prices and processes they put into action. Price is
just one element in the marketing mix and can't been seen as separate from the
rest, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing_mix>

------
graupel
One of the first things I did when I got my first 'real' job was get a custom-
made suit from a place in our neighborhood; it was $1000 and he did like 25
measurements and said it would be 2 weeks until it was ready.

Turns out he was sending the measurements to Korea where the suits are custom
made then shipped back, and then they do final alterations in the US.

I've ordered 3 more since then by just sending an email & choosing a color -
don't think I could ever go back to an off-the-shelf suit - custom fit is so
much more comfortable.

~~~
lanstein
Could you say, are you in SF? Also, your email isn't visible in your profile
unless you put it in the 'about' box.

~~~
dredmorbius
What I'd kill for isn't a suit, but a decent set of casual clothing that
actually fits (see my post elsewhere on this post). I rarely-to-never wear
suits. While not completely fashion-averse, I'm pretty pragmatic when it comes
to clothing: it should cover my nakedness, not be uncomfortable, be easy to
care for, and look reasonably well.

Jeans or khakis and button-downs work well for me, a washable wool could also
work (dry cleaning really isn't an option). Contemporary clothing styles
simply don't agree with me, and the made-to-measure and bespoke alternatives
are still rather steep.

Though I'm increasingly tempted.

~~~
pclark
Chinos from ten years in the future:
<http://shop.outlier.cc/shop/retail/chino.html>

~~~
dredmorbius
... at 4.5x the price of an OTR pair of slacks.

Really?

Even counting a nice (but not extravagant) pair, easily 2x the cost.

~~~
potatolicious
Yes, and so what?

A legit ergonomic keyboard is also easily 10-15x the cost of a no-name USB
keyboard that "works just as well". A MacBook Pro is easily 2x the cost of
something that has the same specs on paper. A pro-grade DSLR is 4-5x the cost
of a consumer-grade DSLR but in principle work the same.

I've gone from wearing random cheap jeans to wearing $150-200 fitted jeans,
and the difference is immense. It's comfortable, almost scary comfortable, the
fabric are _very_ noticeably nicer, the fit feels great, and people around you
think so too.

That's not worth 2x the cost?

~~~
dredmorbius
The question is: can I find something equivalent for less cost.

My experience has been, with sufficient searching (and yes, there's a time
cost to that), yes, I can.

The upsides: I can see, feel, and fit the garment before buying it. When
committing to tailored items, particularly online, no such luck. Clothing's
pretty personal, I've never much been a fan of the online or mail-order
experience. Their only advantage is that the in-store experience is rapidly
getting to be as bad or worse.

~~~
redbad

        The question is: can I find something equivalent for
        less cost. My experience has been, with sufficient
        searching (and yes, there's a time cost to that), yes,
        I can.
    

As far as I'm aware, there is nothing equivalent to Outlier on the market
today, much less anything at a lower price point. If you have information to
the contrary, please do share.

~~~
blasdel
I love Outlier, my first two pairs of their pants are almost clapped out with
at least 5000 miles apeice in them, and I recently got another two pairs.

Surface Clothing is closest to being Outlier at a lower price point.

You're right that there's noone else in direct competition, but they do have
siblings in converging verticals. You should definitely look at Rapha, nau,
and Bonobos, each of which overlaps in a different way. You should also look
for RRL shirts in boutique fashion stores, they've got some insanely great
merino button-up shirts (they're never listed online).

------
dredmorbius
Yet another submarine: <http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html>

The suit is dead for any number of reason, dittos bespoke clothing.

$4000 is several times what I spend on clothes in a year. It's several times
what I spend on clothes in _several_ years. There's a far less expensive
option that's highly satisficing. Suits, once an inexpensive, practical,
standardized alternative to more ornate and expensive clothing, are now the
expensive, frequently impractical attire. The lead time to purchase is too
long. And a far lower grade of tailoring is more than sufficient for virtually
any occasion. That's basic facts.

There are exceptions -- people for whom the expense is neither extravagent nor
unneccessary. It's a pretty small crowd, well within the top 1%, and probably
more like the top 0.01%. Then divide by two, because, well, very few women
wear suits (though women's fashion is its own discussion).

As TFA notes, bespoke tailoring doesn't scale. And it strongly suggests a
rather fragile relationship between the garment and the wearer -- I can change
in multiple of 25 separate measurements within a few months to a years time --
does this render a suit poor-fitting?

The made-to-measure alternative exists, and for many or most, it's a more-
than-acceptable alternative for either formal or casual clothing. With
correctly chosen measuring points, and if necessary, some additional
tailoring, garments can be made to fit quite well. Cloth is pretty fungible.
Sticking to conservative fashions, styles, and cuts means you'll have
something that will wear well for years. And in a world in which off-the-rack
sizing is increasingly problematic (aggressively styled cuts with little
sizing leeway result in more frustrated customers), it's increasingly an
option. There are a few vendors in the space, though I feel it's still waiting
for its true visionary.

~~~
nl
_The suit is dead for any number of reason, dittos bespoke clothing._

Why do you think the suit is dead?

I wear a suit (not always, but often enough to have an opinion).

I've never bought an _expensive_ suit, but I nor do I buy cheap suits. I guess
I generally spend around $500.

I work with people who spend $2000 on suits though. These aren't bespoke, but
are from nice fabrics and cut very well (eg, Hugo Boss etc). I'm no suit
expert, but I can tell the difference.

I can't say I've seen any particular decrease in suit wearing over the past 15
years I've been working, although ties are less common that they used to be.

In my experience location and field of work makes a bigger difference to suit
wearing than anything else.

~~~
pfedor
_Why do you think the suit is dead?_

Don't know about other places, but at least in NoCal high status people don't
wear suits. Since the only function of a suit is status signaling, it seems
just a matter of time until everyone else catches up and suits will be
replaced by bike jerseys or whatever.

~~~
bradleyjg
I know it may not seem that way sometimes, but NoCal is not the entire world -
nor does the entire world take their cultural cues from NoCal.

The suit is very much alive in NY, in London, the entire legal world, and in
many other places. That's just during the day.

For formal events / outings it is SF that is the extreme outlier. In the rest
of the country if you are going to a fancy restaurant, a wedding, an awards
dinner or the like you wear a suit. The original rational for the suit
actually still holds for these occasions - it removes the need to constantly
chase the latest fashions, as many woman and all hipsters must.

~~~
fusiongyro
"Extreme" outlier may be going a bit far. I live in the Southwest (NM). I
found myself at a formal, Conservative Jewish funeral a couple weeks ago and
half of us were wearing jeans. I was slightly overdressed just in slacks and a
nice button-up. One out of the last four job candidates that's interviewed
here came in anything fancier than that. I've been to four or five weddings
out here, and never seen a shortage of bluejeans; seems like only the people
in the wedding are expected to dress up out here. The only people I see
consistently dressing in suits are lawyers, but they can waltz into court
wearing cowboy hats and bolo ties with their suits without arousing a weird
look.

We all have different experiences I guess, but the further West you go, the
less formal the attire, and California isn't really as "extreme" as you may
think.

~~~
pc86
Maybe it's just me, but wearing jeans to a wedding or funeral and _not_
wearing a jacket and tie to a interview immediately signal disrespect and that
the guest/candidate is too lazy to put in the requisite effort.

~~~
fusiongyro
It's not just you, but it's also not everyone else. It's a regionalism.

~~~
pc86
Maybe the weather has something to do with that as well? I live in a very
temperate part of the Northeast.

~~~
fusiongyro
It might. But out here in the Southwest, we don't dress like Saudis even
though their garb is better suited to the climate. For a lot less than $4000
New Englanders could wear mountaineering suits and that would probably retain
heat and repel the elements better than a suit, but I doubt that one's coming
around either.

Ultimately it's just a cultural difference, and searching for rationality
behind it isn't going to bear fruit.

------
nl
_Even the richest customer simply has to wait — sometimes months — before the
new suit is finished. No wonder so many pass up a $4,000 bespoke suit for a
ready-to-wear Kiton version at twice the price._

Isn't it pretty clear here that he should _raise_ prices _dramatically_?

Clearly the demand is there (people spend twice the price on a inferior
product).

~~~
mikescar
Huh?

The whole point of paying twice as much is that you spend a fraction of the
time defining product specs, and don't have to wait.

If so many pass up a 50% discount to get immediate satisfaction, they aren't
likely to change their preference for waiting once the product they already
didn't buy becomes dramatically more expensive.

~~~
nl
_The whole point of paying twice as much is that you spend a fraction of the
time defining product specs, and don't have to wait._

Raising the price stops you competing in the whole "I need a new suit" market.
Now you are in the custom luxury good market, and there the time to buy isn't
an inconvenience, it is a feature.

The whole _pay-to-pick-my-Ferrari-up-in-Maranello_ takes a lot longer than the
normal Ferrari ordering process (and is hugely inconvenient) and yet still is
used by a reasonable number of orders.

You don't buy a Ferrari for transport, nor do you buy a luxury suit to cover
your nakedness.

If people can sell $500,000 watches[1], then a $20,000 suit seems reasonable,
especially when it comes with custom consultations etc..

[1] [http://www.luxist.com/2010/04/10/richard-mille-
rm027-rafael-...](http://www.luxist.com/2010/04/10/richard-mille-rm027-rafael-
nadal-watch-is-ultra-light-weight/)

------
T_S_
Why can't the TSA make me a suit? They already have the measurements. I'm
barely half joking here. Seems like this is one of those unsolved "solved
problems".

~~~
stcredzero
You may have something here. You wouldn't even need millimeter waves to do it.
Just a 3D scanner setup, which can amount to an old projector and some
webcams. We should be able to use technology from 3D motion capture to build a
physical model of someone's skeleto-muscular system. The hard part would be
the domain knowledge. Someone would have to work closely with a tailor to
convert his/her specialized knowledge about fabrics and seams and how clothing
hangs off the body into algorithms. (And even then, you'd probably need a
trained operator with a sense of design.)

~~~
lancewiggs
X-rays used to be very popular for shoe fitting. I strongly suspect that
millimeter waves have similar long term health issues. And I don't see many
getting naked in front of a 3D video camera set-up.

~~~
nitrogen
Millimeter waves are not ionizing, while the x-rays used by TSA backscatter
machines and medical x-rays are.

~~~
dredmorbius
The question isn't whether or not they're ionizing. The question is whether or
not they have adverse biological actions.

~~~
noonespecial
Its highly likely that those are in fact the same question.

~~~
dredmorbius
Not when asked by me.

[http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=physiological+effects+of...](http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=physiological+effects+of+non-
ionizing+radiation&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=SqxGULLLN8OziQK7zoGQBw&ved=0CBkQgQMwAA)

My general sense: any health effects are likely to be weak at levels typically
encountered, but I'm holding as plausible that thee may be _some_ effects.

~~~
aortega
Microwave oven radio waves are non-ionizing 2.4 Ghz and I suspect they cause
several health issues to any living organism exposed to them, even for a short
time.

~~~
lawnchair_larry
They aren't, unless you're in the oven. And that's different.

~~~
dredmorbius
For some people, there's a risk on the outside as well. Pacemakers.

Less so these days, but still.

My understanding is that there's a possibility of creating induced current in
the pacemaker. Which is to say, the non-ionizing radiation has an effect at a
distance, albeit in a manufactured artifact, not (in this case) organic
tissue.

~~~
noonespecial
It is not the 2.4Ghz radiation that causes the trouble with pacemakers. Its
the plain old magnetic field generated by the inductive inrush from the giant
coils that convert the power to feed to the magnetron tube in the microwave.
Any large inductive load poses the same risk.

~~~
dredmorbius
I'm getting slightly different information. The best "how do Microwaves
interfere with pacemakers" info I could find was from The Straight Dope, which
indicated that it was actually microwave leakage, not the coils themselves,
which induced the current. And I'm aware that among the reasons you don't nuke
metallic objects is because of the charges induced. Another source showing
effects of various EMR frequencies indicated that induced currents were among
the effects of microwave and other longer-wave radiation.

That said, other risks for pacemakers include store anti-theft devices, most
of which are also inductive coils so far as I understand.

------
HairyMezican
If he really does have mow siting list of months, you would think he'd raise
his prices. He would make more money, some people wouldn't go to him for suits
anymore, but that would just mean that others would get their suits more
quickly

~~~
runT1ME
I agree, unless he loses more than half his business, why not double his
prices? Maybe he only makes one suit a month that way, but he would sure have
a lot more free time...

~~~
heretohelp
Some people just really love what they do, love being busy, and want to be
able to share their gift with more people.

The certainty of constant sales/deal-flow has a value all its own too.

But don't let that stop you parroting the same advice to every self-
employed/contractor/business-person who claims to be popular/keeping busy that
we see on every. single. thread. on. HN.

------
joewee
Please do not order a suit off the internet. That is the worst idea ever.

I own eight suits and half dozen blazers. My first suits and blazers were all
off the rack, including the high end brooks brothers. And they all fit me
horribly. I never wear them now.

I didn't realize how horrible they fit until I went to bespoke suits and
shirts. So from someone who wasted a lot of money do yourself a favor, go to
the best shirt maker in your city and have a custom shirt made. Be prepared to
spend up to $300 for the shirt (though $200 is more reasonable). Then use that
as your template and send it to a tailor in hong kong who will make duplicates
of the shirt with the same measurement for $30 each in the fabric selection of
your choice. Best investment ever. I recommend <http://www.jantzentailor.com/>

For suits, I can't help you if you are in America. But if you are going to
order a suit in the USA try to get a british cut, the style that Frew uses.
Just don't order something off the internet. Lots of factors that go into what
makes a quality suit that can't be expressed online.

------
lancewiggs
In my opinion it's a lot of money, but can be very well spent.

A fantastically fitting and well designed suit is a powerful weapon in
business, politics and life. Trends come and go, but suits always seem to come
back into vogue, and you can really tell the difference between the highest
quality bespoke suiting and shirts that the CEO/HNWI/high ranking politician
wear, and the ones that lower levels are wearing.

Like it or not I've found that suits really work to project "rank" (whatever
that means) - working on me and (sometimes) for me. So it's worth the money to
invest in at least one very good one. Some say we should dress for the job we
want next, or in ten years.

Add-ons beyond the initial investment can add up, including a range of shirts,
ties, multiple work suits and suits for other purposes such as formal events
and outdoor events in summer. However purchasing well means that these can
last for years and years. Suits for men are a lot easier, cheaper and last
longer than business clothing for women, who have another order or two of
complexity to deal with.

It's the same with "casual" clothes. Some people wear casual clothes that are
not so casual or cheap on closer inspection.

------
gjm11
From <http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html> ...

 _Why do the media keep running stories saying suits are back? Because PR
firms tell them to._

~~~
fecklessyouth
It's not the suits are back...it's that they never really left.

~~~
emmapersky
this.

------
pessimist
This problem is as old as the Industrial Revolution, not exactly news.

I moved to India and here I can afford tons of household help. For example, I
have a chauffeur, who comes from a community of highly skilled weavers who
make traditional fabrics like this:
<http://bannacreations.blogspot.in/2012/02/ilkal-story.html>.

Basically, there is simply not enough demand for those skills. So he chucks
his skill - handed down from father to son for generations - learns English
and driving, and moves to the city. He now hopes to soon move out from his
slum to a real house. I wish him luck - he is ambitious and hard-working, and
is making a niche for himself in a challenging world.

------
nicholassmith
My Dad is a tailor, from ye olden days as well and cut his teeth measuring,
marking and cutting. Yes, you can get a made to measure suit that's pretty
much damn near perfect but when a truly experienced tailor works to produce a
suit it's essentially a hand-crafted, one of a kind piece of art.

And oddly given my love of tailored suits I generally buy off the peg ones as
I'm _way_ too hard on clothing to justify the outlay (even with a family
discount).

~~~
tomkinstinch
Beyond the skill of art, I would imagine that an advantage of a practiced
tailor is also that you get to benefit from their knowledge of which styles or
cuts would work well for your particular features, intent, and life story.
Software can get the geometry right, but it's hard to program taste.

------
lmm
Would we really be better off in bespoke suits? It doesn't sound like this
Frew has a very good life if he's having to work in his living room and can't
afford his own suits. Wanting to have a someone personally spend 75 hours on
your suit seems terribly egotistical; if they do it for the love of it then
fair enough, but honestly I'd feel more comfortable in a suit I knew hadn't
consumed so much human life energy.

~~~
gdubs
Right, because the clothing industry at large has always been good about how
it 'consumes human life energy'. While I get where you're coming from, I think
it's more egotistical to deprive someone of their job because you think it's
too hard for them, or that they'd be better off doing something else. It's his
job. Plus, he's making 50 grand a year. Which is more than most teachers in
the U.S.

------
waterside81
Indochino.com is your friend. Bought a few suits there, and two shirts,
fantastic fit & quality. You take about 20 measurements yourself at home (you
need a partner to help) upload your details on their site, and boom. Free
shipping, free alterations. Not affiliated with them, just a happy customer.

Plus Steve Nash is an investor; an NBA MVP can't be wrong, can he?

------
misterbwong
Interesting. I wonder how the foreign suit makers affect this business. I have
a few friends that visit Thailand regularly and get custom suits made (cost is
<$200 USD). For the price of one of these suits in NY, you could fly to
Bangkok (in Business Class!) AND get a few custom made suits.

~~~
gtuckerkellogg
Those <$200 USD suits made in Thailand are unlikely to be top shelf. There is
a huge business in southeast asia on rapid turnaround custom suits. It's not
targeting the same market as real bespoke tailoring.

I have a weakness for bespoke suits. I live in Singapore, and have gone to the
same tailor for seven years. He's superb, but you can tell from working with a
great tailor why even "made to measure" suits can be disappointing. When I
started with this guy, I would go back for two fittings after my initial
measurements, and before the suit was done. The fittings would be done with
the partially constructed suit. Many details were checked and little
adjustments made: asymmetry in my body, the sway in the back, where I pocket
my phone, how to adjust the jacket for my wallet, and making sure the right
sleeve accomodates my watch (I'm left handed). I thought it was overkill. But
worn, his suits are flawless and so comfortable the idea that a suit would be
uncomfortable is a distant concept.

After the first few years we reduced it by one fitting.

------
mbell
I bought a suit when I graduated and was looking for a job, wasn't custom
tailed just off the shelf. It worked (I guess) I got a job as employee 4.

I haven't worn a suit in _years_. In fact if someone were to judge me by my
uniform I'm fine with saying "sorry, this isn't a fit" (pun intended).

------
jonnii
My best friend from highschool has ended up in this world through his passion
for all things sartorial (<http://www.thearmourystore.com/>).

He was involved in creating a wonderful documentary that follows suit makers
of Naples called O'Mast (<http://vimeo.com/16443611>), which even for someone
like me who knows nothing about suits was really interesting. I suggest
checking it out as it'll give you an idea of the kind of skill required to
make a custom made suit.

No matter what you may think about spending $4000 on a suit, it's a shame to
see this kind of craftmanship dying out =(

~~~
exhaze
Is Mark your best friend? I had the pleasure of seeing the documentary when it
was screened in San Francisco and meeting Mark and Gianluca. It was pretty
eye-opening to talk to people who really live and breathe men's tailored
clothing.

~~~
jonnii
Indeed. I was the best man at his wedding.

------
xlevus
To me, my $4000 Savile-Row suit is worth twice as much. It's not bespoke, it's
made-to-measure. Sort of half way to bespoke.

I don't need to wear suits, I never really have. I've always worked for
relaxed companies, never been to a wedding (well, apart from the one I bought
the suit for).

But I'm a skinny guy. Even the slimmest of fitting shirts and suits on the
rack didn't really fit. My suit? It's like a glove. I put it on and feel
awesome. And this is why my suit is worth every penny.

------
stupandaus
Spending a significant amount of time in Shanghai the past few years, I've
frequented the Shanghai fake market many times. While some portions sell
knockoff goods, the fabric section is quite spectacular. I can get a bespoke 2
piece suit for $100 or 3 piece for $150. I get custom dress shirts for $10.
The material and craftsmanship is high and the primary market is expatriates
(read: non-Chinese) living in Shanghai.

The way it's set up, is there are maybe 50-100 booths set up in the fabric
market area. Each of the booths is rented out by a proprietor, and they are in
business for themselves. Most operate by relying on an economy of scale behind
the scenes. The sole proprietor would take your measurements in the shop, then
send them to a behind the scenes system which processes hundreds of suits a
day.

It is not uncommon to have your custom clothing done within 24 hours and
shipped directly to wherever you are staying. Very interesting way to manage
the economy of scale.

------
noonespecial
"...there is now a large difference between what is monetizable and what is
actually valuable."

There's my gem of the day right there.

------
jcampbell1
This article is offensive to me. Frew is a talented craftsman and a recent
immigrant who single-handedly makes more than the average household in the US,
and is in the top 1% of the world in terms of income. He has his own business
that is all his through hard work, and has aspirations of becoming a famous
designer.

There is no need to insult Frew about his work clothes or his choosing not to
make a suit for himself. Frew is rich, and should be applauded.

I don't pay attention to politics, but I used to roll my eyes when right-
wingers would talk about "new york times liberal elitism", but in this case I
agree with the rednecks.

~~~
jacques_chester
Revenue != Net Income.

------
BrianGaffney
If you're in Australia Vinspi.com.au are an online tailored/bespoke suit shop.

You provide the measurements and build a suit design online. 2 week
turnaround.

They only ship to Australia at the moment and suits themselves are made in
Bangkok.

------
Tichy
So what is it that makes the tailoring impenetrable to automation? For example
why couldn't pieces be cut with a laser cutter? Why can Chinese workers create
a suit in 30 minutes and US workers only in 10 hours?

I wonder if modern machines wouldn't be able to do completely different
things, too. Why does cloth have to come in flat sheets? Maybe modern machines
could produce cloth that already has shapes (like knitting machines, only more
fine grained?). No more sewing required?

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rhplus
Not mentioned in the article, but if you're willing to wait, some of those
Saville Row suitmakers will produce a bespoke suit for much cheaper than
$4000. The trick is to add a 4 week wait time and ship the measurements off to
India. And of course, if you can make the trip to India yourself (or plenty of
other countries in SE Asia), then a bespoke suit will cost you less than $100.

~~~
shimon_e
Bespoke and a made to measure pos for a $100 are two completely different
things.

------
kamaal
There is huge demand for special clothing and believe it or not Suit today is
a special clothing. The point is really people's idea of dressing has changed.
There were times when costly clothing automatically meant something. Those
days are gone. I find it difficult to imagine, people wearing suits to work
these days. Most of them look like 'Odd ones out'.

I don't like to wear a suit, nor does anybody around me unless they are
getting married or they are about to meet somebody powerful and rich. There
fore clothing industry is 'optimized for the common case'. The only clothing I
find worth buying these days is rugged jeans and polo T-shirts. Anything else
and I find that to be focusing on ornament more than the substance. Therefore
the demand and supply moves in that direction.

The place for bespoke suits today is the distinction that tailored clothing
carries. So they continue to remain clothing for 'special occasions'. Needless
to say if you want to maintain that sort of distinction, you can't use
machines to scale. Because that would mean you that sort of clothing no longer
carries that distinction.

Its not that these artists/tailors can't make money other way. They can
probably get a job else where and live in better conditions- if they want to.
But sometimes people stick to what they do and how they do for unexplainable
reasons.

------
Game_Ender
There is one economy of scale which eventually hit the bespoke suit industry:
robotics/automation. Eventually you will be able to make tailoring robots to
do each step of the process, much like they do in car factories. With the
proper software you could step into a booth, get a 3D body scan and have the
suit finished in hours or minutes.

~~~
christensen_emc
This may work for crude made to measure suits, but bespoke is often more about
trial and error than incredibly precise measurement. It also has a lot to do
with the preferences of the client, particularly with regards to the shoulders
and armholes.

As for automation, a large number of MTM tailors currently email the
measurements to a factory in Asia where the suit is cut by a worker getting
paid pennies. The cost isnt necessarily in the making of the suit, its more
the measuring and interactions between the tailor and the client that can take
hours. For this reason alone I dont think we will see tailoring robots anytime
soon.

------
marcamillion
I wonder what would happen if he created a marketplace for his services. So
rather than taking orders, people would bid on his time.

I guess the downside to that is he is still fighting the 'time to delivery'
problem - of people wanting it now.

------
ghshephard
If there was _every_ a task ideally suited (no pun intended) for automation,
this is it. Plunk the 16 measurements required and you should have a high
quality bespoke suit.

~~~
stusmall
That's slightly different. That's called made to measure. Its where you have
one stock design and then its custom made to your body. For every M2M suit of
a style, the patterns will match, label style will match, pockets will match.
Its just the size that is different. I hear indochino does a pretty good job
of making affordable M2M suits. For their prices I'd imagine a lot of the
process is highly automated.

When you get a bespoke suit made, you walk in and sit down with consultant and
you figure out every little detail. He helps you pick a pattern that matches
your coloring, label width that matches your body size, number of buttons that
match your personality. You end up with a suit that is 100% unique to you.

~~~
philh
> number of buttons that match your personality

I'll bite: what correlation is there between your personality and the number
of buttons on your ideal suit?

~~~
stusmall
So think of how conservative it is. Someone older, and more conservative could
pull of a double breasted suit jacket where someone younger would look like
they are wearing a costume. Where something like a single button jacket would
is a bit flashier and would fit someone who is much more out going and
confident. There are a lot of variations on the same thing. I can just think
of styles that run the scales of traditional vs modern and flashy vs
conservative, but with those 2 axises you can do a lot to find something to
really accent someones personality and style.

~~~
thesilentist
Buttons have to deal with the level of formality.

Single buttons have their roots in the single-breasted dinner jacket or
tuxedo. If you want your jacket to have an increased level of formality, you'd
go with a single button.

Two-button suits are more standard, common for business and every-day suiting.
Formal enough for the majority of situations when you'd wear a suit, but not
quite "after six" level of formality for an evening event or dinner.

Three-button jackets should be left to casual suits or odd-jackets. Adding
more buttons on the single-breasted suit adds an increased level of
informality. Works best on casual, seasonal fabrics like seersucker, linen,
tweed, corduroy, etc.

Double-breasted jackets have their roots in the military and are often paired
with peak lapels, which are more formal than the notched lapels of most suits.
So, a double-breasted suit would be definitely on the more formal end.

So, I wouldn't say that buttons are about "personality" as much as it is the
situation in which you'll be wearing the suit.

------
matthiasb
The shoemaker's children always go barefoot. Les cordonniers sont toujours les
plus mal chaussés.

------
mrinterweb
Not directly related to the article, but I was immediately reminded of the
Arrested Development episode where the value of Gob's suit kept going up.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Nl7VYFEaI>

------
astrojams
A $4000 suit is worth $4000. No? Oh wait, this isn't Reddit.

------
williamle8300
"Oh yea, me! The guy with the $4000 suit! C'MON!!"

------
leothekim
$4000.

------
jcromartie
Come on!

(sorry)

~~~
dag11
I get the reference, but I think this better belongs on Reddit.

~~~
westicle
For a reference that good, maybe he considers it karma well spent.

~~~
jrockway
Gob never refers to the entire suit as costing $4000, so the reference is not
that good, actually.

