
Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi - SQL2219
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/01/09/think-debtors-prisons-are-a-thing-of-the-past-not-in-mississippi
======
ShroudedNight
> The Mississippi Department of Corrections, or MDOC, repeatedly declined our
> requests to visit the restitution centers and to discuss them with state
> officials. But in a statement issued in late December in response to our
> findings, the department noted that it follows state law when operating the
> restitution program.

If this program were one of integrity and justice, it should not have a
problem exposing its complete workings to its citizens. Notwithstanding the
possibility of unreported history here, this stinks.

>Darrell Bridges says he earned almost $2,000 working at Checkers during his
stint in the Pascagoula Restitution Center in 2013. But the money was never
applied to the $3,403 debt he owed from an attempted robbery when he was 17,
records show.

>As a worker makes money, the corrections department takes the first cut in
room and board, then usually holds the remaining earnings until there’s enough
to pay the entire debt. When someone leaves the program, the corrections
department sends their earnings to the court to cover its costs. It
distributes the rest to victims, then to pay criminal fines.

Indefinite debt bondage is unjust in any form, but the state and its agents
reserving for itself the lion share of this feast of blood and life is
especially reprehensible.

~~~
Clubber
Sadly, this happens in a lot of states. If you owe a fine and don't pay it
because you can't, they'll keep tacking on interest until it reaches a certain
limit, then throw you in jail.

Our current state of government scares the hell out of me.

~~~
csense
What's the alternative? Fines and jail are basically the legal system's two
main options for punishment.

If a poor person commits a crime, that's not serious enough to throw them in
jail, what should the legal system do?

It seems like "If you're poor, you can commit non-felony crimes without
consequences" seems like a REAL bad policy idea.

~~~
Clubber
Depends. If it's car related, revoke the license until the payment is made.
Maybe do what the debt collectors do and harass them on the phone or garnish
wages. Another thought, maybe we shouldn't make so many things crimes. We only
do it to pay for the obscenely large justice and policing system. To me it
just seems like a jobs program with a very steep societal cost.

I would think throwing someone in jail who owes money for a fine is very
counter productive, considering how much it costs to incarcerate and jail
someone. It's like spending $5000 to not collect a $500 debt. We aren't very
good at government.

------
rayiner
> A judge sentenced Husband to the restitution center in 2015 to pay off
> almost $13,000 she owed from an embezzlement conviction in 2009.

> The State of Mississippi had locked Husband into a modern-day debtors
> prison.

Let’s agree that this sort of punishment is potentially not conducive to
restorative justice.

But what justification is there for the article to deceive the reader with a
comparison to debtors prisons?

The EU Convention on Human Rights bans debtors prisons. It states: "No one
shall be deprived of his liberty merely on the ground of inability to fulfil a
contractual obligation." Restitution as punishment for a crime does not arise
out of a “contractual obligation.” It arises out of a criminal conviction.

~~~
romwell
Potato potato, that person would not have been in _prison_ had they paid off
the _debt_.

Where the debt comes from matters why exactly?

The prison should be for one purpose only: to make society safer. If someone
is dangerous enough to be in prison, they should not be out regardless of
whether they owe money or not.

In other words, if you can't buy your way _out_ of prison, a debt should not
bring you _into_ one.

~~~
rayiner
> Potato potato, that person would not have been in prison had they paid off
> the debt.

No. The meaning of words matters. Words, used precisely, are how people with
different values and beliefs can communicate and reach agreements in a
functioning society. When journalists, who are supposed to inform and educate
the public, twist the meaning of words in order to make a point, that’s wrong.

> Where the debt comes from matters why exactly?

Because a debt arising from a criminal conviction requires the convicted
person to have engaged in a wrongful act in the first place. Mere failure to
pay a civil debt does not.

> The prison should be for one purpose only: to make society safer

Views about the proper role of prisons vary widely. Most people believe that
prisons are for punishing people for doing bad things. Note that by your
reasoning, many people who do very bad things should not be imprisoned because
there is no risk of recidivism. Women who murder their abusive husbands, for
example, are almost never going to go and murder someone else. By your
reasoning, they shouldn’t go to prison to punish them for their murder.

~~~
a_t48
> Women who murder their abusive husbands, for example, are almost never going
> to go and murder someone else. By your reasoning, they shouldn’t go to
> prison to punish them for their murder.

That's a reasonable position to take, actually. Depends on the level of abuse,
I'd say. [https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/07/europe/uk-sally-challen-
intl-...](https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/07/europe/uk-sally-challen-intl-scli-
gbr/index.html)

~~~
klipt
The thing is, jail also acts as a deterrent to the first murder. If it's
common knowledge that everyone gets one "murder your abusive spouse"
consequence free, a lot more people might commit murders in cases where a
divorce might have worked out better and less deadly.

~~~
geofft
Then that's about jail as a deterrent (making society safer by discouraging
_future_ crimes), not as a form of punishment for someone who did a bad thing.

It may be true that the deterrent is justifiable because it's also a
legitimate form of punishment (for instance, saying "If anyone kills their
spouse this year, I'll skin this puppy alive" might be a deterrent, but it's
probably unjust), but it's not acting as punishment alone.

~~~
mendelmaleh
Aren't all punishments deterrents tho?

~~~
Normal_gaussian
No.

A punishment fails as a deterrent if:

\+ it is not expected \+ it is not understood \+ it is not net negative

The first, not expected, fits when; one believes their actions are legal and
then they are found not to be (correctly or incorrectly); one expects a
different punishment to the one given, and the expected punishment was not a
deterrent (often seen in fraud cases).

The second, not understood, fits when one expects the punishment but failed to
understand its impact on them. For example, those incarcerated may
misunderstand the lasting trauma of loss of privacy, agency, and family.

The third, not a net negative applies in cases where the punishment is deemed
an acceptable risk or cost, or even desirable. Desirable has repeatedly been
the case for the extremely impoverished or ill. Acceptable cost is seen in
many corporate dealings, but mainly speeding and parking tickets for the
individual. Acceptable risk is even more the corporate case (legal departments
evaluate legal risk constantly) but is also the case for career criminals and
moonshot criminals.

~~~
FireBeyond
I'd argue that you often only need one of those criteria.

Witness Vinod Khosla and his battles: he has expected fines, understands them
(though disagrees), and the net negative is (in his case) so trivial as to be
negligible.

"Oh, you want to fine me $10,000/day? Well, go for it. By the end of my life
that might amount to 3% of my net worth".

~~~
Normal_gaussian
That was in fact what I was attempting to convey. It was unfortunate that each
point was formatted onto one line - I forgot that HN does not use markdown!

------
TomMckenny
The "except as a punishment for crime" in the 13th amendment was not in the
first drafts. But less progressive minded forces got in the final version with
the obvious intent of using it[1]. And it has certainly gotten a lot of use in
spite of occasional whack-a-mole attempts to moderate it.

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Peonage_law)

------
pasttense01
"Looking back, Husband said she was punished for being poor..."

Nonsense: she was punished for embezzling $11,000 from her place of
employment.

~~~
jdsully
At first I nodded in agreement. Then I wondered if someone had the $11,000
would they still be in jail?

~~~
rayiner
Convictions for theft and embezzlement usually have two separate punishments:
imprisonment and restitution (give back what you stole). As to the restitution
part only, being able to pay back the money can avoid imprisonment related to
the restitution judgment. But there is nothing unfair about that.

~~~
jdsully
Paying restitution is one thing, being forced to stay in jail while paying it
back is quite another. Normally these cases are handled with garnished wages.

~~~
JamesBarney
The idea that if you give back what you stole your punishment will be lessened
is as old as theft.

~~~
FireBeyond
To be clear, there wasn't _only_ restitution (center) punishment. She was
placed on probation for 5 years of a 7 year sentence. Except she was also
being "held" at the restitution center while that part of her sentence was
being carried out.

------
rubyn00bie
Yeah, this is fucking insane, from top-to-bottom... left-to-right... inside-
and-out... fucking insane.

This is quite literally forced indentured servitude, or what I normally call
"slavery." This is fucking slavery.

At no point should one be forced to work before or after they've already paid
their "debt" to society; extreme circumstances not withstanding (i.e. you
still have a billion dollars after serving your time and can easily afford to
pay back your debt). At no point, should ANYONE, be required to be imprisoned,
worked, and have daily wages withheld for the "cost" of that imprisonment,
furthering their imprisonment-- this is straight up a fucking violation of
human rights and theft, the interest rate on the withholding is very likely
not paid back, but I'm 100% sure they (prison owners or faction in that
industry) profit on it.

Where can I donate what little money I have to stopping this fucked up
practice and making it illegal? Maybe I missed it in the article due to the
increasing amounts of (naive) disbelief and (pure) rage I encountered as I
read it.

~~~
paulddraper
> At no point should be forced to work before or aftere they've already paid
> their "debt" to society

Weird wording. The fact that the debt has not been paid is why they're
working, no?

My dad's accountant embezzled from his business.

The person spent all the money over the years and by the the time they were
caught, there was little left. And unfortunately, that's a pretty typical
story. (FYI, business insurance may or may not cover internal theft; that's
often a separate policy or a rider.)

In the end, the crime netted a hefty sum at the expense of the victim.

If you take something, you should have to give it back.

IDK what this vague "debt to society" is; I just know my dad is out $100k+.

~~~
Zenbit_UX
That really sucks for your dad and this may be hard for you to answer
objectively given your proximity to the situation but imagine if the guy who
robbed your dad got tossed into this place with $100k + court fees and maybe
child support if he had kids.

At minimum wage pay, with ~20% of his earnings going to pay down the debt
that's effectively a life sentence. My question to you is, does that seem fair
for what is essentially a white collar, non-violent crime?

~~~
MikeAmelung
Where does it say they have to make minimum wage? If someone was stupid enough
to hire the guy again as an accountant, he could make whatever he made before.
Hell, like most of the geniuses in this story, he could embezzle from the next
guy to pay the last one!

Edit: I do think the system they have going on is absolutely ridiculous,
especially considering the infrastructure costs when it's only being used for
"more than 200 people" (which I'm assuming means less than 300). But some of
the responses here from bleeding hearts are insane.

------
Nextgrid
The more I read about "justice" in the US the more I realise how fucked up and
perverted the concept of justice is in that country.

We're always quick to criticise other countries for the failings or bad design
of their justice system and lack of respect for human rights, but are we much
better? We might be better on paper, but is that actually reflected in
reality? I'm not so sure.

~~~
SamReidHughes
If you get convicted for _embezzlement_ , as in the first example in the
article, and don't pay your fines and restitution, what do you think the
courts should do?

~~~
rtpg
Wage garnishing is easy? If you have an employer then now they are on the hook
for following through as well.

Hell, shut down the restitution centers and use that budget to help cover
court fees instead!

Think about it: if someone gets fined $10,000 and is working minimum wage, is
there really anything good accomplished by trying to recover that much? Just
cap out some wage garnishment scheme if you want to fine them.

~~~
SamReidHughes
The criminal has an actual victim who needs his money back. It's pretty
important to him (or her) that he gets his money back. Maybe she could pay the
restitution with the money she embezzled.

She also skipped her meeting with her probation officer, more than once, and
she didn't report to the probation officer (or the court, whatever) that she
got an increase in income, when she got her job at Harrah's. Funny, that.

They don't mention that in the article, do they.

Here's the hearing transcript:
[https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6598211-Annita-
Husba...](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6598211-Annita-Husband-
Revocation-Hearing-Transcript.html)

~~~
FireBeyond
Absolutely they mentioned it in the article.

~~~
SamReidHughes
Where do they mention that she didn't report an increase in income?

------
Hydraulix989
They aren’t a thing of the past. Debt related criminal offenses are just
charged differently as contempt of court or fraud:
[https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/debtors-prison-aclu-
rep...](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/debtors-prison-aclu-report-
details-criminalization-private-debt-n849996)

------
throwaway838475
The US has the highest real incarceration per capita on the planet except
Seychelles, mostly for nonviolent crimes that were instituted (War on Drugs)
by Nixon to attack the poor, minorities and other “opponents.” Also consider
the number of for-profit prisons and the prison industrial complex that runs
transportation, staffing and internal services for the public prisons.

It’s also worth carefully re-reading the text of the 13th amendment. The giant
slavery loophole is as-intended. The Union lost the Civil War while it got to
declare “Mission Accomplished” because Abraham Lincoln sold-out civil society.
Slavery continues as corporations profit by exploiting cheap labor paid on
average under $1/hour. Systematic disenfranchisement is profitable.

~~~
toasterlovin
Your comment is incredibly hyperbolic. The Union won the civil war. Slavery in
its most overwhelmingly common form was ended. Millions of black Americans
were freed. Whatever his other faults and shortcomings, Lincoln presided over
the sacrifice of many men’s lives to bring about that momentous change.

------
bigcohoneypot
How is this constitutional?

~~~
apocalypstyx
13th Amendment

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, _except as a punishment for crime
whereof the party shall have been duly convicted_ , shall exist within the
United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

~~~
thaumasiotes
I don't think failing to pay a debt is a "crime" under American law.

Edit: reading the article, these people have failed to pay the fines
associated with criminal convictions.

~~~
alphabettsy
People are regularly jailed for civil infractions such as traffic tickets, and
failing to pay fines from such infractions.

They are also held on bail when they cannot afford to pay, this is before
found guilty of any crime.

~~~
rayiner
Traffic tickets in many states are criminal violations. Here in Maryland, for
example, there are no civil infractions except for automated red light
cameras. Even a normal speeding ticket is a misdemeanor criminal conviction.

~~~
whiddershins
A speeding ticket is a misdemeanor criminal conviction.

This beggars belief. Can you provide sources or citations. Quick googling
finds no references to this absolutely implausible scenario.

~~~
rayiner
[https://www.atlantaduilawyer.com/blog/is-a-speeding-
ticket-a...](https://www.atlantaduilawyer.com/blog/is-a-speeding-ticket-a-
misdemeanor-in-georgia/)

------
loblollyboy
Embezzlement

------
catalogia
From what I understand there are a metric fuckton of people imprisoned for
inability to pay child support, so I'd say debtor prisons aren't limited to
Mississippi.

~~~
teachrdan
People in other states who are imprisoned for inability to pay child support,
etc. are released at the end of a finite sentence; they are not held
indefinitely until they pay off an ever-increasing debt to the state at a low
wage job. That's what defines debtors prisons.

~~~
catalogia
One is certainly more severe than the other, but in either case if people are
getting imprisoned over debts, it seems like a pretty shitty situation. Do you
disagree?

~~~
BubRoss
That's not what this article is about. It's about "How the state’s
“restitution program” forces poor people to work off small debts."

------
motohagiography
The scandal is the mainstream press hasn't raised this and related problems in
the justice system. They really only have one job, and no amount of "concern"
for political issues is sufficient to compensate for the shameful oversight of
issues like this.

I'd argue any writer with a Pulitzer should hand it back until they have
personally effected change in justice and prison reform. I'm angry that the
system works this way, but I'm even angrier that people who do nothing but
write for a living get to do so without making this a national priority.

~~~
mikeyouse
This is silly. The "mainstream press" is nothing more than a mirror. If there
were widespread outrage about justice and prison reform, there would be much
more coverage of it. There really just isn't much interest, and it's honestly
as fervent on the pro-punishment side as the reform side (e.g. Jeff Sessions'
disastrous but celebrated term as Attorney General in rolling back progress
made at the Federal level: [https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jeff-
sessions-is-trying...](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jeff-sessions-is-
trying-to-take-criminal-justice-back-to-the-1990s/))

