

How Debt Has Defined Human History - jsherry
http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2011/08/06/how-debt-has-defined-human-history/

======
rfugger
My take on this is that the ethic that enables credit to function sustainably
is incompatible with the corporate culture we've created. Value judgements in
our economy are increasingly made by corporations who can only value what they
can measure numerically, and incapable of valuing humanity.

That's why I'm working on a scalable system of interpersonal credit money:

<http://ripple-project.org>

~~~
lionhearted
I think the problem is less "corporate culture" and more "human nature."

This is what the socialist/communist movements didn't understand - some people
are individually ambitious at all costs. In capitalism, they can start
businesses. In communism, they join the Party and work up the ranks. The
difference is, in capitalism, you theoretically have different people
controlling the guns and prisons and courts. In socialism, the ambitious
people control the economic production but also everything else.

Anyways, this is a tangent from your project. But I think it's less business
culture and more human nature. In a system where you can't generally
build/invest/enterprise individually, people who want power don't shrug and
say "oh well, I'll work for the common good I guess" - instead the start
gathering power through whatever is available.

~~~
sudoman
I wouldn't necessarily say that it's human nature, but Western culture. Yes,
there are those who most value surpassing others at any cost, but that is
their personal culture, and not the singularity of human nature. I think that
people choose which roles of their multi-faceted human nature to act upon and
which ones to avoid.

It's possible that an education that teaches the values mentioned in the
article would give similar advantages as those in the past. The difficulty is
that a large source of people's education is the surrounding culture itself,
so people pick up values that they see others pursuing. So if young people see
the example of adults endlessly accumulating wealth and spending frivolously,
then those observing think, "hm, maybe this is a good idea," and so they
emulate, and the problem continues. And for those who have been doing and
valuing the same the same thing as their neighbours for so long, just assume
that it's "human nature," and not some human choice with many advantages and
disadvantages.

------
chrismealy
Debt is the same as savings. "How Savings Has Defined Human History" somehow
doesn't get people worked up.

~~~
jhancock
I started reading Graeber's book [1] 3 days ago. I'm only about 1/3 into it.
The author is an anthropologist and tells his story from this perspective. So
far, If I understand correctly what I'm reading, I think the author would not
agree that 'savings' is the opposite of 'debt'. I also don't see the author as
trying to get the reader worked up. Its a very interesting and though
provoking read thus far.

[1] - <http://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1933633867>

~~~
chrismealy
I regret sounding critical. The book looks really interesting.

------
wallflower
> “I’m really scared of what could happen, because I bought property here,”
> said Sofia, who asked that her last name be withheld because she is still
> hunting for a new job. “If I can’t pay it off, I was told I could end up in
> debtors’ prison.”

[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/12/world/middleeast/12dubai.h...](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/12/world/middleeast/12dubai.html)

~~~
hugh3
What's the point you're making by pasting in this quote? That we should bring
back debtors' prisons?

~~~
wallflower
That debt is such a part of most people's lives that the idea of being jailed
for not currently having the means to pay it back is literally out of the
Western world of thought.

Borrowing against future earnings is so accepted that to pay cash for
something substantial is seen as an exception.

~~~
sliverstorm
I don't know that I agree with you entirely. Debt prison just seems kind of
dysfunctional to me; if you imprison me because I'm late paying you back...
there's no chance I'll be able to pay you back!

~~~
skm
The threat of prison is supposed to make people more likely to pay back their
debts.

~~~
OstiaAntica
And not take on too much debt to begin with.

