
Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can? - protomyth
http://www.usatoday.com/story/driveon/2013/12/26/ford-f-150-aluminum/4203935/
======
listrophy
Aerospace engineer here, weighing in...

I have two areas of expertise on this matter. First, I was on UW-Madison's
competition-winning FutureTruck team about 10 years ago. We were, IIRC, the
only team of about 15 other universities that replaced our competition car's
(a Ford Excursion) entire frame with aluminum. In addition to replacing many
other steel parts/assemblies with aluminum equivalents, we managed to bring
the newly parallel hybrid SUV under stock weight... despite adding a large
battery pack and motor. The thing I learned from this experience was: even
though aluminum has about 1/3 the density of steel, your parts end up being
about 50–55% of the steel weight because you need to add more aluminum to
maintain equivalent strength. Basically, given the same tensile strength
properties of a part, an aluminum one will be about half as heavy.

Second, I worked as a payload mechanical engineer for a number of spaceflight
systems. Suffice to say, our base material for consideration was aluminum.
Sure, we deferred to steel for certain applications (e.g., ball bearings, rat
cage bars, fasteners, etc) and to myriad materials in others, aluminum was the
standard. It has a tremendous strength/weight ratio, can be alloyed in many
different ways to get different characteristics, is non-magnetic, is
relatively cheap, and can have a number of interesting surface coatings
applied. About the only major systemic problem aluminum has is that it is
difficult to weld. Not impossible, as my FutureTruck experience tells me, but
difficult. It didn't matter to us, though, since NASA generally frowns upon
welded joints anyway. Too much strength variation due to heat stress and
potential for FOD if not ground properly.

Anyway, I've been waiting for the auto industry to catch up to a bunch of
college students for 10 years now. Nice to see one of the Big Four finally
getting it. And cheers to the smaller car companies that have been doing it
for years.

~~~
dded
Since you seem to have some expertise, maybe you can answer this question: Is
there a work function difference between steel in contact with aluminum, and
does it accelerate corrosion in the steel?

~~~
listrophy
The three main things to be concerned about are corrosion, galvanic
corrosion[1] and galling[2].

Corrosion is more commonly known as rust, but that's technically reserved for
steel (or, more accurately, iron) oxidation. Aluminum certainly corrodes, but
it corrodes into aluminum oxide, or alumina, which is actually a ceramic that
is stronger than aluminum. In fact, good luck using aluminum without a coating
of alumina... it naturally occurs on the surface of atmospherically exposed
aluminum. As a result, when a chunk of aluminum is broken off of a larger
piece, the material almost immediately forms a protective layer of alumina.
It's almost like aluminum self-heals in the presence of oxygen.

Galvanic corrosion occurs when dissimilar metals come into contact amidst an
electrolyte solution. In the case of vehicles, that's usually seawater/sea-
mist or salted winter roads. While saltwater is also responsible for
accelerating normal corrosion, it also plays a part in galvanic corrosion. So
yes, having aluminum and steel touching is a recipe for galvanic corrosion,
but galvanic corrosion is not black-and-white. Each metal has an anodic index;
a high or low anodic index doesn't matter all that much. What matters is the
difference between the anodic indices of the touching metals. For aluminum and
steel, that difference is quite small, so galvanic corrosion isn't a huge
issue, but it's not negligible either.

Galling occurs when the sliding friction of two parts, say a screw and its
threaded mate, results in plastic deformation, usually in the more ductile of
the two pieces. This generally doesn't come into play in the construction of a
vehicle because many parts are attached either by welding or by a bolt-nut
combo. Choosing the correct materials for the bolts and nuts (basically, just
use hardened, but not stainless, steel) gets rid of this concern in most
cases. In cases where one must screw a steel fastener into a threaded aluminum
piece, a helical insert is usually prescribed. While many manufacturers make
these, we typically used Helicoil for spaceflight ops because they're tested
and rated for spaceflight (batch traceability, proper composition docs, etc).

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling)

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douglasfshearer
The Land Rover has had an aluminium body since 1948, plenty of time to figure
out if it's a good or bad choice for an off-road vehicle.

There seems to be a lot of FUD around the new F-150, and as a European, it's
hard not to see the similarities with U.S reactions to small turbocharged
engines, and smaller vehicles in general.

* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Series](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Series)

~~~
draker
The series LR's had complete Birmabright (aluminum/magnesium alloy) bodies;
though the more recent models Discovery I/II, LR3, Range Rover have used only
aluminum body skins.* Meaning the structural body is steel, though the outward
panels are aluminum.

The 2013 Range Rover has a complete aluminum body (skin and structure), with a
700lb weight reduction for US models.[1]

1\. [http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2013-land-rover-range-
rover...](http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2013-land-rover-range-rover-photos-
and-info-news)

* Various differences among models some have steel roofs, doors etc.

------
Theodores
I am glad to see that trucks are catching up with bicycles!

The bicycle business moved to aluminium a generation ago. For at least a
decade carbon fibre has been the material of choice for road bikes. Nowadays
if you are from the school of 'steel is real' then you are going to have to
buy a cheap 'bicycle shaped object', get something custom handmade or go for
something deliberately hipster-retro.

Clearly there have been aluminium bodied cars for some time, even a 'truck' if
you count the Land Rover. However, there is aluminium and there is aluminium.
I suspect that the new Ford truck has a bit more to it than the Land Rover (or
even the Audi A2) has.

In the bike business there is 6 series aluminium and 7 series aluminium, to
name the most popular alloys. The original aluminium frames were welded
together tubes, for a while 'bonding' was experimented with but that proved to
be unreliable. The current state of the art is 'hydroformed' aluminium,
welded. The 'hydroformed' frames are works of art, with the metal where you
need it for strength, the grain structure also aligned for strength. The tubes
are anything but plain cylinders and much more useful for design than was
possible in the days of steel.

Does anyone have any more technical information on what the processes and
alloys are going to be on this new-fangled truck?

~~~
snth
> Nowadays if you are from the school of 'steel is real' then you are going to
> have to buy a cheap 'bicycle shaped object', get something custom handmade
> or go for something deliberately hipster-retro.

Not entirely. [http://surlybikes.com/](http://surlybikes.com/)

Steel is still cheaper, easier to fix, and more comfortable.

~~~
Theodores
As it happens I ride steel, primarily for the first reason you mention! I am
also from the UK and I was over-generalising about what is available. There
are plenty of people that still prefer steel, this is something I like about
bicycles, there is a lot more individuality going on with bikes than you get
(generally) with motoring.

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recursive
No. It will not. But it may be made of aluminum. What's with this headline?

~~~
dded
The headline addresses the very real concern that Ford has with the _image_
their customers might have with an aluminum truck. They're concerned that
people might equate aluminum with flimsy. Expect competitors to encourage this
thinking (till their own aluminum designs are ready). Image is very important
in the pickup truck market.

But to give potential critics some credit, aluminum can be made very thin,
like a beer can, in which case it _is_ flimsy. It can also be made thicker,
like the aluminum siding of the 60s and 70s, in which case it may still ding
easily and lose its appearance.

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geoffeg
Many cars prior to the F-150 have had aluminum bodies (Land and Range Rovers,
for instance) that sold well. I would think that many truck drivers are more
concerned with towing capacity, power and fuel economy than the specific metal
the body is made from. Besides, the aluminum won't rust!

~~~
protomyth
If you're buying a F-150, you are more concerned with it holding up[1]. This
is the vehicle of construction sites and farmers. It is truly the vehicle of I
need to haul that stuff over there where they might not be a road. The concern
is that the 2014 F-150 will not hold up and be more expensive to repair.

This is Ford's flagship vehicle. It cannot just sell well, it must put up
amazing numbers. Its the iPhone of the car world.

1) the F-150's gas mileage isn't stellar, but it does even out when hauling.

------
dded
Car and Driver once had a piece about a largely aluminum Audi that they were
reviewing [1]. They got into an accident (not terrible--no one hurt), and the
$30,000 repair took months at the only facility in Michigan that could repair
aluminum-built cars. Now the Audi used aluminum in its frame, and maybe that's
all the difference in the world, but I'd like to see Ford address
repairability.

Otherwise, I'd welcome not only the weight reduction, but the avoidance of
rust and body rot.

[1] [http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2007-audi-s8-long-
term-r...](http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2007-audi-s8-long-term-road-
test)

~~~
Gravityloss
I have an aluminum Audi A2, and it's great! The fuel economy is good, and it's
perky because of the lightness. Also happens to be one of the most reliable
vehicles in it's age group. It drives really well because of the low center of
gravity and thoughtful suspension, even if it is narrow and tall on the
outside. It's actually a car that has been coherently designed.

[http://www.motormobiles.de/motor/a2i.jpg](http://www.motormobiles.de/motor/a2i.jpg)

The model was too expensive to produce and was cancelled by Audi in 2005. No
aluminum Audis after that except some sport models. It's sort of a hidden gem.

To an outsider, making a big pickup truck from aluminum is like creating a
paperweight out of some expensive lightweight material. Isn't the whole point
of a pickup to most people (not all) being imposing and bulky? They even
mention the 5000 pound weight in advertising, I assume they try to impress
that it weighs a lot.

~~~
blt
Cool photo. Bare aluminum is really shiny and attractive compared to mild
steel. What are your maintenance costs on the A2? I need a new used car...

~~~
Gravityloss
The windshield wiper motor died and I ordered a new one from a German web shop
Audi Zentrum Göttingen for 100 euros (payment with Paypal), and a small town
VAG specialist changed it. There are lots of repair shops around here that fix
these cars just fine, even when they weren't imported here when they were new.
So all cars are second hand imports. The wiper motor part cost would have been
more than double locally. It helped to know some German. :)

Then the rear brakes also had to be fixed for the yearly checkup, normal
wearing parts. And the internal heater had a connection problem, discovered
when it started being cold enough that it was used (it's an aftermarket job
anyway, to connect the car to an electricity outlet and warm up the engine
block with a resistor and the interior with a resistor+fan).

I've had the car for six months and from rough memory, spent maybe 400 euros
for maintenance.

------
ericcholis
Wouldn't the lack of weight be a factor in snow, or generally poor-traction
situations? Being in Buffalo, NY I already see plenty of trucks fishtailing as
it is.

Disclaimer: Truck !== Good in Snow

~~~
discardorama
Whatever happened to putting sandbags in the back of the truck? When I lived
in Buffalo, that was the preferred method of adding extra weight in the
winter. Bonus: free sand in case you got stuck somewhere :-D

On the flip side: how will the ever present salt affect the aluminum body?

~~~
ericcholis
Yea, sandbags are the preferred method. Problem is, there are quite a few
people that still think having a truck makes you impervious to poor driving
conditions...and they skip the sandbags.

All metals will corrode in the presence of salts. Though aluminum does not
exhibit rusting like steel does, it will develop a chalky film and pitting in
the metal surface when exposed to salt for long periods. I believe that this
is aluminium oxide.

Some reading: [http://www.boatingmag.com/how-to/maintenance/protecting-
alum...](http://www.boatingmag.com/how-to/maintenance/protecting-aluminum-
boats-salt-water-corrosion)

~~~
sejje
So then the lack of weight won't really be a factor in the snow. The ignorance
of some owners will be.

~~~
protomyth
The ignorance is often cured by the tow truck driver explaining what you did
wrong, sometimes the police if you are particularly unlucky.

------
gyc
The Acura NSX had an aluminum body back when it was first introduced in 1990.
I'm glad to see aluminum bodies now being used in more mainstream vehicles.

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blt
All pickups use body-on-frame construction (image:
[http://bit.ly/1cFsxn2](http://bit.ly/1cFsxn2)). The backbone that bears most
of the load remains steel. It probably always will, because the strength
requirements would necessitate a huge, expensive chunk of aluminum.

If the bed interior is aluminum, they will have to increase the thickness
compared to steel, but it will do just fine at distributing the load to the
frame.

Aluminum has a softer surface and will scratch easier. I'm guessing the
Aluminum F-150 will come with a bed liner from the factory.

~~~
dded
> All pickups use body-on-frame construction

Including the Honda Ridgeline? I thought that was an exception. In any case,
you're mostly right, and that design is unlikely to change. Folks who actually
use trucks in their work often bolt on various different styles of body:
contractor bodies with large storage cabinets on the sides, enclosed van-like
boxes, dumping beds, etc.

But frames can certainly be made of aluminum. The East company, which makes
flat-bed and dumping trailers for semis, makes frames from aluminum. An
unloaded, aluminum-framed flat-bed is very noticeable for its pronounced arch.

The scratchable surface of the bed will be paint, just as in the steel models.

~~~
bradleyland
The Honda Ridgeline is generally classified as a "sport utility truck", a
category in which you'll also find vehicles like the Chevrolet Avalanche and
Ford Explorer Sport Trac. It's basically an SUV (which are commonly unibody)
without the rear enclosure. The distinction is that their primary design
purpose is aligned more with that of an SUV than that of a pick-up truck.

I'm not aware of any true pick-up that uses a unibody design, and probably for
the reasons you've stated.

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dhughes
On PBS where I saw a brief description of aluminum and how difficult it was to
refine and even when abundant supplies were available it's a soft metal if not
an alloyed with copper or other metals. And the alloy is still soft unless
it's forged correctly it takes time and heat, or so the show indicated, it was
quite interesting.

For all that work you'd think these days carbon fibre would be just as good,
economically-wise.

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cpfohl
Who knows. It _will_ make firefighters' jobs a lot more interesting at
accident scenes:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z2uwC4mvoY](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z2uwC4mvoY)

~~~
al2o3cr
If you've hit something with enough force to turn the body panels into powder,
they won't need firefighters - just a MOP...

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auctiontheory
_F-150 will blaze the way._ Ha. The first time one of these catches fire, it
will put the Tesla to shame.
[http://www.g2mil.com/aluminum.htm](http://www.g2mil.com/aluminum.htm)

~~~
cpncrunch
If you look at the wikipedia page for that ship, you'll see that is isn't even
built from aluminium! Really, that link is a bunch of crap. When was the last
time you heard of a plane's aluminium skin catching fire (apart from when
there is a bunch of avgas or jet-a on fire?)

