
Chinese Media Warn WeChat Admins: "You Can Be Arrested for Group Chat" - cow9
https://www.whatsonweibo.com/chinese-media-warn-wechat-group-admins-you-can-be-arrested-for-what-happens-in-your-group-chat/
======
thaumasiotes
> YOU are of opinion it would be proper to establish a company of firemen in
> Nicomedia, [similar] to what has been practised in several other cities. But
> it is to be remembered that societies of this sort have greatly disturbed
> the peace of the province in general, and of those cities in particular.
> Whatever name we give them, and for whatever purposes them may be founded,
> they will not fail to form themselves into factions, assemblies, however
> short their meetings may be. It will therefore be safer to provide such
> machines as are of service in extinguishing fires, enjoining the owners of
> houses to assist in preventing the mischief from spreading, and, if it
> should be necessary, to call in the aid of the populace.

( Plin. Ep. 10.34;
[https://www.bartleby.com/9/4/2043.html](https://www.bartleby.com/9/4/2043.html)
, or in the original at
[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:19...](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0139:book=10:letter=34)
)

That's the Roman Emperor Trajan denying the administrator of the province of
Bithynia permission to establish a fire department. If you let men get
together, for any purpose, they'll start talking about politics. It's better
to let things burn.

~~~
paavoova
What happens if you get women together?

~~~
dang
Please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
paavoova
I have posted and do frequently see "unsubstantive" comments, but somehow the
mere connotation of gender is a flag.

From a historical perspective, such a question in even its simplest form is
entirely valid given the nature of gender roles in societies. Are/were
conspiring women's groups more or less feared than men's? I don't know myself,
and my comment was sincere in that regard.

~~~
jjjensen90
Both you and pmontra above are completely misreading thaumasiotes's comments
in a knee-jerk reaction. They were simply paraphrasing the intent of the quote
from Trajan... If you have an issue with it, bring it up with Trajan.

~~~
pmontra
So thaumasiotes was sarcastic here

> Women getting together is fine. Not once have groups of women ever been
> known to rebel against the government.

I agree with the sarcasm. Women are generally less problematic than men but
they rebel when it matters. Another example, Rosa Parks.

~~~
thaumasiotes
Speaking for myself, no, that statement is entirely serious. Women are not now
and never have been a direct threat to any government. They don't fight wars.

Would Trajan have known this? Of course.

Compare your descriptions of suffragettes' terrorist activities with the
research on how effective terrorist campaigns are at even getting their
favored policies implemented. (And then, of course, ask yourself whether
Trajan could have been aware of a 20th-century women's movement.)

~~~
drb91
Women work. Withholding labor is a threat to the state. Women were a crucial
part of the civil rights movement. Women are absolutely a threat to the state.

------
dev_dull
The extremely strong freedom of speech laws we have in the US is definitely
something we got right. Reading things like this make me really grateful about
those protections.

~~~
HNthrow22
except at the moment we're dealing with highly organized paid misinformation
campaigns and widespread propaganda under the guise of free speech. This will
not be popular on Hn but in my opinion holding users and platforms responsible
for the messages they distribute to millions is the inevitable evolution and
future of social media, society has demonstrated the inability to responsibly
handle anonymous unchecked mass communication - anti vax is just one example
and those consequences (Measles is back) are just the tip of the iceberg.

~~~
DevKoala
I strongly disagree. There are many ways to combat misinformation that do not
involve censorship. There is nothing to applaud about oppression driven
government censorship.

~~~
yifanl
If I may use a bit of reduction, isn't the logical conclusion of freedom of
speech that truth simply doesn't matter?

If every idea is acceptable, and I cannot face consequences for anything I
say, then what difference is there between the statements "Apples are fruit"
and "Apples are the square root of 45"?

Certainly, that's not the level of free speech we're at, but all this
clamouring for unrestricted free speech makes me almost as worried as the
threat of censorship.

~~~
kelnos
You can certainly face consequences, just the government cannot be responsible
for imposing them. I'd much prefer that bad and dishonest ideas be dismissed
and the speakers censured by their community rather than jackbooted thugs
forcing silence at gunpoint.

It's obviously not a perfect way of going about things, but I think it
definitely errs in the right direction.

~~~
yifanl
It's just that on the scale of the internet, the breakdown tends to be: 3X of
people come out in support of your ridiculous idea, X people actively disagree
and 100% - 4X ignore it, where X is some small number.

To an outside observer, you must have a good idea, after all, you have so many
more people in agreement than detractors!

Which basically makes it impossible for "the community" to hand you any
consequences.

------
dead_mall
This makes me think of this Reddit meme I saw in the Gaming section, the gist
of it: if you mentioned some specific chinese massacre in a game with chinese
players, they would all leave the game.

~~~
_iyig
There is a large copy-paste block with English and Chinese spellings of
“Tibet, Xinjiang Autonomous Region, Tiananmen Square Massacre 1989” that also
frequently gets posted on sites like 4chan and YouTube to ward off Chinese
commenters. I imagine it’s not very effective, however, since these sites are
blocked on the Chinese Internet, so any Chinese users would by default be
posting via an encrypted VPN.

~~~
colanderman
That's… one of the more interesting things I've read today.

~~~
dang
The parent referred to "Chinese commenters" (and "ward off" was bad enough),
but your comment seems to imply that they're all "CCP astroturfers". That's
against the site guidelines. Would you mind reviewing them?
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

Obviously there are real issues to be discussed here, but to do so well means
we have to get good at not doing things that kill real discussion, and
denigrating large groups en masse is one.

~~~
_iyig
I don’t know what the comment to which you’ve replied said originally, but
it’s true that China pays thousands of people to astroturf comments on the
Internet. This fact has been established by the international press and also
by the Chinese government. Furthermore, people in China aren’t stupid, and
many are aware of this phenomenon as it is quite prevalent on the domestic
Chinese Internet (Weibo, WeChat, etc).

Are all positive comments about China made by the “wumao army?” Of course not.
Are many such comments astroturfed (Edit for clarification: speaking of the
broader Internet)? Absolutely. Would it be racist to point out the existence
of the large and well-funded groups paid to make such comments? I don’t think
so.

Obviously, this isn’t a cudgel to be used against any pro-Chinese government
comment or argument. “Wumao” is often employed as a slur. But it is 100% a
real phenomenon.

[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-
pacific/7783640.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7783640.stm)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Water_Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Water_Army)

[https://youtu.be/yCnnPf2OnHo](https://youtu.be/yCnnPf2OnHo)

~~~
dang
Everyone knows that's a real phenomenon. The issue I was addressing was
people's tendency, unfortunately very common, to conflate every Chinese
commenter, indeed anyone advocating a Chinese perspective, with CCP
astroturfers. That's a serious problem on HN. (I don't think it was
colanderman's intention to do this and I'm sure that's why he edited his
comment after I replied to it.)

The temptation is strong, when encountering views one dislikes, to regard the
person expressing them as disingenuous and pushing some sinister agenda. This
is why the site guidelines explicitly say " _Please don 't impute astroturfing
or shillage. That degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're
worried, email us and we'll look at the data._"

As geopolitics between China and the West heat up for reasons totally beyond
this site, users here need to remember that HN is an international community
where all are welcome. Being welcome, among other things, means not being
slurred because of your national origin, language, race, and so on. It's nice
that HN feels like a small and intimate place, but it's not a living room—when
you post here, you're broadcasting to an audience of millions. Many come from
very different backgrounds than you or I or any of us does, and they have just
as much a right to be here as you and I and any of us does.

The image of "warding off Chinese commenters", which you invoked in your
comment upthread, is dismaying and exactly what we don't want here. People
need to listen to each other more, not less, when there is distance between
them. I don't want to be part of any site that works against that.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
_iyig
Perhaps my initial word choice evoked the wrong assumptions. Allow me me
rephrase.

I’ve related a dismaying image because the reality is dismaying. One group of
(mostly awful and hateful) Internet users “wards off” another by copy-pasting
what are to them, for all intents and purposes, magical runes. Scribe them
down and the others disappear, banished by some arcane and unseen force. The
crazy thing is that these runes may _actually work_ , because the targeted
users live under a system of censorship and surveillance unprecedented in its
scope, scale, and level of detail.

That’s nuts. It’s utterly fascinating. It’s (the block-text posting) not
behavior to be emulated anywhere on HN. It is absolutely dismaying. And as a
story, it’s also completely on-topic and within site guidelines.

~~~
colanderman
For context, the comment I edited out was a joke on the "magical runes"
aspect. But, thinking it in poor taste to use the Chinese people in general as
the butt of the joke, I framed it specifically about astroturfers. In context
(and, given that said "runes" don't recognize such a distinction), the joke
did (unintentionally) read as an implication that all Chinese are
astroturfers, as dang rightfully indicated; hence my redaction.

------
jjcc
I guess:

1.Most people who can not read Chinese believe "detained" or "arrested" is on
the photo of the newspaper as a proof. Is it true? Ask your friend who can
read Chinese what the head line says. If the author was honest, she should
explicitly stated that "detained" or "arrested" is from other source but not
from the image. She is manipulating readers perception while she can claim she
didn't lie.

2.No body notice the date of the newspaper is missing. If I say this is quite
old news , would anybody be supprised? Is the missing date accidental?

Here's my anecdonal experiance:

It the photo true? Yes.

Is CPP tighten the control of WeChat? Yes, Just as the photo shows. a while
ago. There's no warning of arrest though.

Are there any WeChat admin arrested that public know? Yes, somebody selling
pornagraphy content.

Are there any trouble with WeChat groups because of politics? Yes. I have been
inside at least 2 groups with many members havning strong anti-government
sentiments. The consequence is the groups were shut down because of many anti-
CPP content. The admins openned another group , hand picked up all the old
members into the new group because the "shut down" was that anybody in the
group can only see his/her own words but not others. The admin can still
access all the members information.

What do we behave in the new group? Still the same but use twiseted expression
that anybody knows meaning while avoid automated censorship. No human really
read messages to detect sensitive word but robot. Usually replace some words
sounds the same but wrong characters.

What if you can not help expressing anger against government? Don't do it in
group but in your "Moment" and use images with text content instead of text
that robot can detect. Even most Chinese believe this can cause trouble from
government but one of my friend did this all the time. Nobody from government
pay attention to him.

I totally against censorship. But I also don't like media selling their own
ideaology with disinformation. Tell truth please.

~~~
echevil
> No body notice the date of the newspaper is missing

The article itself mentioned a date, Oct 8, 2017, when the "new" regulation
come into effect. So yes, this is old news.

Reading the article in Chinese, I do understand that the main focus of the new
article is cracking down illegal activities like distributing pornography
(which is illegal in China), gambling, scamming, etc, which are problems on
the social networks that are quite important to solve.

I didn't see anywhere in the Chinese article that mentioned "politically
sensitive information", "bring news about Hong Kong, Macau or Taiwan that has
not been reported by official news channels", publish “military information.”
The sentence "spread rumors" is mentioned in combination with "scamming" and
should be focusing on "scamming" part.

But again, there's nothing surprising that western media interpret this in a
completely different way. That's just one thing they all love to do.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> illegal activities like distributing pornography, gambling, scamming, etc,
> which are problems on the social networks that are quite important to solve

Distributing pornography happens all over, right on the street. And on the
regular internet, outside of chat groups.

I would not say that distribution of pornography through private chat groups
rises to the level of "important to solve" given the infinite other very easy
ways to get it.

~~~
echevil
Well, different country, different laws

~~~
thaumasiotes
Different country? I'm talking about China. And you?

------
Teknoman117
> it is not allowed, as this article lists, to post “politically sensitive
> information”, “spread rumors,” “bring news about Hong Kong, Macau or Taiwan
> that has not been reported by official news channels,”

Well that's just Orwellian...

~~~
tonylinn
Those words are never in the Chinese report being referenced, and I have to
call out this article being just a lie

~~~
yorwba
Maybe they changed the link, but now it's definitely there:

1、政治敏感话题不发 don't post on politically sensitive topics

2、不信谣不传谣 don't believe rumors, don't spread rumors

3、所谓的内部资料不发 don't post so-called internal information

4、涉黄、涉毒、涉爆等不发 don't post content involving pornography, illegal drugs or
explosives etc.

5、有关港澳台新闻在官方网站未发布前不发 don't post news about Hong Kong, Macao, Taiwan before it
has been reported by official websites

6、军事资料不发 don't post military information

7、有关涉及国家机密文件不发 don't post state secrets

8、来源不明的疑似伪造的黑警辱警的小视频不发 don't post suspected fake videos of unclear origin that
smear the police (search 南应 on YouTube for a recent example of what's probably
meant by this)

9、其他违反相关法律法规的信息不发 don't post other information that violates related laws or
regulations

------
ycombonator
Censorship coming soon to a neighborhood near you. You don’t have to look too
far to point fingers at censorship. Our Social Media overlords just banned
“conspiracy theorists”. What if I like watching conspiracy theories for the
heck of it because the MSM is nauseating merchant of “truth”.

~~~
im3w1l
My rule of thumb is that people who get banned for saying "out there" stuff
are controlled opposition and people who get banned for saying common sense
and obvious stuff are real opposition.

~~~
antepodius
What's common sense and what's out there depends on the reader.

~~~
im3w1l
That's by design. By keeping it vague it becomes more broadly applicable.

------
Causality1
Man am I glad I live in a country with strong freedom of speech protections.

------
fadzlan
There is something like this in Malaysia as well, under the previous
government. The way that some people deal with this is make everybody admin.

------
potatofarmer45
It's basically another way to spread fear to encourage self censorship. If
admins believe they are liable for anything non-kosher, then they'd actively
censor it themselves to avoid potential wrath.

Throw in a few news articles of someone being arrested for a trivial group
post, and it becomes an example of 杀一儆百 which translates as "to kill 1 as a
warning to 100"

~~~
jakeogh
Predictable consequence of the GDPR:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18863496](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18863496)

~~~
unimpressive
Sorry but, what does the GDPR have to do with this story about China? China
doesn't care what laws Europe writes.

~~~
jakeogh
I didn't mean to imply they are subject to it. It's another example of
something new assisting the self-censorship trend (as noted in the story the
commentator I linked to gave).

------
ummonk
If you run a group and allow criminal activity to continue on that group
without moderating said activity, why wouldn’t you be held responsible?

------
chii
This is why full end to end encryption is required.

~~~
acchow
How do you know someone in the group chat isn't a spy for the government?

~~~
wangchungtonite
How do you know the government does not already have the root cert anyway

~~~
TaylorAlexander
I hope some day we have RISCV phones where you can swap processors and all
software is auditable.

------
real-hacker
A few years back, some software is banned from Chinese internet because its
release number is 6.4

~~~
jeromegv
Source?

------
mensetmanusman
We are biased on HN to consider technological solutions to an ideological
problem: there are powerful people who benefit from sowing distrust. Ideally,
the Chinese leadership wants each citizen afraid of their neighbors.

This is easier to do in a society when large family ties are much weaker (due
to one child policy).

~~~
saagarjha
From my experience, China and most of Asia has _very_ strong family ties as a
core tenet of their culture.

~~~
mensetmanusman
Yes, very strong small family ties.

------
atemerev
So, no Winnie the Pooh fan fiction groups? Damn.

------
nhylated
Make everyone an admin of the group!

------
barkingtoad
In the UK you can be arrested for teaching your girlfriend's pug to heil as a
joke.

~~~
astonex
While the prosecution was dumb (it was clearly a joke), he did turn out to be
a huge right wing racist anyway

~~~
dev_dull
Is it an American thing to not care if someone is a “______” when talking
about their protected rights?

~~~
astonex
Im far from American however

~~~
ummonk
Hence the question.

------
thewhitetulip
This has already been happening in India under the current govt

Any Anti PM post gets the Whatsapp admin arrested under National Security Act!

Of course, there must be some stupid party supporter who probably had to file
a case or something.

This will be worse as it'll be automatic as China MITM's everything

~~~
doorbellguy
Pretty interesting comment. Let me see a reputable source which backs up 'anti
pm message arrest under national security act'. I googled those and found just
one arrest in a state which said

> Asked why Shinde had been suspended, Sharma said, “He has not been suspended
> just for the message. In the past, too, complaints were received against him
> for favouring certain political party person and showing political
> inclination. The WhatsApp message he posted is one of the reasons why he has
> been suspended.” Asked what exactly did he mean by showing political
> inclination, Sharma said, “I won’t be able to give all the details. But the
> past complaints and WhatsApp message are the reasons he has been suspended.”

source: [https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/mumbai-
const...](https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/mumbai-constable-
suspended-for-sharing-anti-pm-message-on-whatsapp-4892293/)

~~~
nanokilo
Forgive my naivety, but aren’t Whatsapp messages encrypted? If so, how can the
authorities see what’s written in them?

~~~
fouc
I thought only 1-to-1 messages were encrypted and group chat wasn't.

~~~
aitchnyu
Whatsapp does E2E for groups, which have upto 256 members. A Matrix dev said
they scaled E2E to groups with thousands.

------
tus87
British media: you can be arrested for makes jokes on twitter or calling a
woman a woman.

