

TSA searches valet-parked car - uptown
http://www.whec.com/news/stories/S3101080.shtml?cat=566

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jonhohle

      > Iacuzza said she doesn't mind the security measure.
      > She just wants to be told if her car is getting searched.
    

vs.

    
    
      > The right of the people to be secure in their persons,
      > houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches
      > and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall
      > issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or
      > affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be
      > searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    

IANAL, but it seems like there is so much precedent against vehicle searches
that it's staggering that TSA thinks this is acceptable. Every case I've read
related to vehicles indicates that probable cause is required for a car
search. Due to mobility, car searches are often exempt from requiring
warrants, but even in cases where a person is arrested for a crime unrelated
to their vehicle a car search can be considered unreasonable

If the TSA was really concerned with cars being parked for extended periods,
it seems the more reasonable thing to do would be to move the valet parking
drop off. My feeling, however, is they were just excited to get easy access to
a lot of cars.

~~~
ethomson
IANAL either, but there's a obvious difference between a vehicle search
without your knowledge and you knowingly handing your vehicle to someone who
acts as an agent of the government in performing a search:

> We also noticed a large sign that alerts customers that their vehicle will
> be inspected.

I think the reasonableness of these actions basically boils down to:

> Iacuzza says it [the sign] was not there when she dropped off her car.

~~~
roc
> _" knowingly handing your vehicle to someone who acts as an agent of the
> government in performing a search"_

That's the part I really don't understand about this: [1]

Is the TSA hiring and managing valet attendants now? Or do they have some
authority to direct arbitrary airport staff to perform 'security' tasks?

What are the odds these valet attendants receive any training in identifying
potential explosive devices, let alone methodical search?

And what's next? Are the janitors going to start poking through the trash bins
looking for bombs as part of their regular duties? Are the curb-side check-in
attendants going to start rifling through luggage? (those bags can linger at
least as long as a car) And if not those things, why valet attendants?

[1] That the TSA would seek to ratchet up their presence and staff in response
to essentially arbitrary hypothetical threats is, sadly, unsurprising.

------
Supermighty
> Iacuzza's car was inspected by valet attendants on orders from the TSA.

They are turning ordinary citizens into spies and informers. Soon we won't be
able to trust the person next to us in a line. Or look our neighbors in the
face without suspecting them of something.

~~~
fvox13
This is the sad foundation of "If you see something, say something" as well.

~~~
roc
I thought that was more about making people aware of the bystander effect and
urging them to err on the side of being the fifth person to report a strange
bag, rather than assume someone else will get it?

Notably "if you see something, say something" isn't encouraging anyone to pro-
actively rifle through any and all unsecured items within reach, as is being
done here by the TSA and valet attendants.

------
DanBC
It's bizarre that they're using valets to search cars.

i) People aren't allowed to take some items onto a plane. One option is to
leave those items in their car. What happens when valets find inert hand-
grenades or training knives or whatnot? (Legal items that can't go on a plane)

ii) What happens if the valets find illegal items? Do they then call police?
Isn't this the kind of thing that US defense lawyers love?

~~~
a3n
Bizarre indeed, they're even less professional security people ( _no_
training) than the TSA.

And what happens when you give a valet the, er, _valet_ key, the one that
won't open the trunk? Do they break in? If not, what's the point?

~~~
ihsw
It stands to reason that they follow the same policies that apply to law-
enforcement agents -- they are compelled to break in and you are on the hook
for any damages resulting from this 'lawful' search.

------
segmondy
"So if security feels it is necessary to search some cars in the name of
safety, why not search all of them?"

This is exactly the question they want people to ask, then TSA will come back,
that they will. Maybe they will cry and moan about how they don't have keys to
other cars and force the auto industry to provide them with a way to unlock
any car. We should stop asking why not search all of them, but why are they
even searching valet cars?

------
woah
The entire premise of this is ridiculous to its core. The reason for
suspension of the 4th amendment before boarding a plane is that the plane
itself could be used as a weapon to cause disproportionate damage, like on
9/11.

The reason for 4th amendment suspension on airport premises is... what? The
parking area in front of an airport is no more or less vulnerable than any
other parking lot in front of any other building. I suspect that the real
reason is "because we can".

~~~
amirmc
> "The parking area in front of an airport is no more or less vulnerable than
> any other parking lot in front of any other building."

Careful, you might give them ideas. The way things are going I wouldn't be
surprised if some variant of this argument was used to expand powers/reach
further. Maybe starting with schools ("think of the children!").

What should worry us more is the number of people who seem to be _okay_ with
things like this. _That 's_ terrifying.

------
jcromartie
This is pretty incredible. Why are they doing this? Even if there's a bomb in
a parked car, does it really pose a safety threat? Who is going to bomb an
empty valet parking lot?

Obviously the answer is "because they can". There is no grounds for suspicion,
just their assumption that they might find some kind of contraband, etc.. This
is 100% pure inexcusable overreach.

~~~
uptown
"Even if there's a bomb in a parked car"

Is a valet driver qualified to deal with that situation even if they found
something like this?

~~~
jcromartie
I just don't see why anybody would bomb a valet-parked car. It would not make
for very good terrorism.

------
ratsbane
What happens if you lock the trunk and glove box and then give them the valet
key? Do they break the locks?

~~~
canvia
You must have something to hide! If you're innocent, why not let them check?

[http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/06/why-i-have-nothing-
to-h...](http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/06/why-i-have-nothing-to-hide-is-
the-wrong-way-to-think-about-surveillance/)

~~~
ratsbane
It's true... I _do_ carry subversive materials in the trunk of my car: books
on Bayesian reasoning and risk management. If they found a chapter on prior
and posterior probabilities they might well question their purpose in life.

~~~
akama
Those are some very dangerous materials, I hope you take the proper
precautions.

------
01Michael10
I am confused... Valet attendants are bomb searching experts now?

Assuming they got a nice pay raise for this new job responsibility.

~~~
jamieomatthews
I have a friend who works as a valet to this Airport, and I can confirm there
was no pay jump for this. Just a surprise extra duty

~~~
01Michael10
I should have used the sarcasm tag on that...

~~~
jamieomatthews
Well considering he already practically works on only tips, I do think its
messed up that he has to do the NSA's bidding for free

~~~
magicarp
I think you meant TSA

------
Shivetya
and who is responsible to ensure nothing of value leaves the car during
inspection? I do not believe the car should be subject to inspection without
the owner being on hand.

Are there details on how they conduct a search? Are we crossing the 4th again?

What is next, having to show up for your flight another half hour earlier so
your car can be frisked?

~~~
ealexhudson
Presumably, since it's the valet doing the search not a TSA officer, the 4th
doesn't come into it.

Pretty sure the police (for example) can't just stop cars and search them
without probable cause, but the standard for vehicles is lower.

~~~
uptown
"Iacuzza's car was inspected by valet attendants on orders from the TSA."

United States v. Jacobsen, 466 U.S. 109 (1984): "This Court has ...
consistently construed this protection as proscribing only governmental
action; it is wholly inapplicable to a search or seizure, even an unreasonable
one, effected by a private individual not acting as an agent of the Government
or with the participation or knowledge of any governmental official.".

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#cite_note-17)

Wouldn't the 4th still apply since the valet attendants are acting on the
direction of government agents?

The flip side of the argument is that the vehicle's owner has already
consented to provide access to the valet driver - and it's the valet driver
that has abused that consent.

------
CrunchyJams
Coming up next: TSA searches homes of everyone who books a coach ticket before
they're allowed to depart for the airport.

------
gadders
Coming from the UK, where we had a long history of car bombs (and even bicycle
bombs) I can understand this.

However, I'd expect the TSA guys to be able to report a cause for why they
searched a vehicle (EG low on axles suggesting carrying a large weight,
alerted a sniffer dog, etc) and not just search all cars.

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jeffasinger
What really surprises me about all this, is given the sign, what person would
possibly use valet parking, over the less expensive and no searching lots
farther from the airport, if they had anything to hide.

------
achalkley
How do they "scan" I hope they're not using those ADE 651s?

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at-fates-hands
I remember seeing a Dateline episode where they went around showing all the
huge holes in airport security. One of them was were you could go to the top
of a parking ramp which overlooked the tarmac. The "consultant" said it would
be easy for any terrorist to lob grenades or launch an RPG at one or several
planes parked on the tarmac.

My point here is most of these holes existed pre-9/11, but now trying to close
these loopholes isn't so easy. I mean, how do you move an entire parking ramp?
While I think the searching of vehicles is sketchy, I believe a lot of these
places are doing their best to mitigate threats and close some of these huge
security holes.

------
supergirl
land of the free (tm)

------
Daniel_Newby
Yet another manufactured "security" controversy. Valets abuse cars regardless
of the TSA.

~~~
wavefunction
So because valets sometimes "abuse cars," a government agency forcing private
citizens to unlawfully search private vehicles is "manufactured?"

There is no rigorous or coherent logic in what you've posted.

~~~
Daniel_Newby
Exactly. If a manic depressive is holding drag races with your car, or
shagging his underage girlfriend in the back seat, the TSA is not an issue. In
fact, the involvement of a valet would create serious problems with a
prosecution, owing to their unreliability, total disrespect for documentation,
and confused chain of custody.

~~~
dnautics
And those people are not bound by a little thing we call 'the bill of rights'.
Moreover, if you find out that happens, you can quit using that valet service.
You can tell others that that valet service is crap, and they too, will quit
using it. There is a generally easy 'opt-out' of the valet service. Not so
much with your country.

~~~
Daniel_Newby
You cannot opt out of crazy valets at airports. One company captures the
parking concession, hires the cheapest (i.e., crappiest) valets they can find,
and said valets do appalling things with/to your car.

So now after they finish joyriding, if they are not too hungover to remember,
they leave a TSA card to keep their boss from bitching at them. Theoretically
that card is an incremental infringement of your liberty, but in practice you
have already been reamed out so hard by the valets that you won't notice.

