
Tesla Motors inks $100M deal with Toyota - evo_9
http://venturebeat.com/2011/07/20/tesla-toyota-100m-rav4-deal/
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rch
I realized recently that I know exactly Zero engineers working in the
automotive industry.

Granted, I live in Houston, but I do know enough people that I could produce a
stack of business cards for any other major industry. In fact, I know more
people who build satellites, stealth fighters, or submarines than consumer
vehicles.

What is the state of automotive R&D in this country anyway... has the industry
been turned over to the marketing department wholesale or am I just in the
wrong spot?

~~~
wisty
Maybe the problem is, they stopped making parts and focused on "system
integration".

It sounds wonderful and high-level. Faced with hordes of competitors from
overseas, people in developed economies tell themselves that they excel at
higher order skills, like management and leadership, and big picture thinking.
This is especially popular with managers. So things like "vison", "systems
thinking" and "the big picture" become your priority, not the nuts and bolts.

But in reality, you become like Dell, rather than Intel. In a vertically
integrated market; system builders are the kings, and parts makers are small
players trying to get their foot in the door. In a horizontally integrated
market; system builders compete on margins, while parts builders compete on
quality. And competing on margins is a good way to make peanuts.

~~~
jroll
Disclaimer: I'm a software developer at GM.

That was once true.

Since the bailouts, the company has shifted it's focus back to quality. Many
more components and parts are developed and manufactured in-house. See battery
systems. With this comes an increase in part/component testing and validation,
as well as complete control of quality and behavior of the component. IMO,
this is the biggest factor in our quality improvements that have saved us
boatloads in warranty costs.

The majority of R&D is done in SE Michigan, with additional small labs located
around the world. We also do vehicle testing and controls development globally
to validate our assumptions wrt climate/elevation/terrain changes. It's true
that you won't meet many automotive engineers that live outside of Michigan.

~~~
rch
Thanks for the reply -- interesting stuff.

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watchandwait
This deal is being underwritten by U.S. taxpayers, who have given Tesla
several hundred million dollars in loans (in exchange for zero equity). I
suppose there's now a slightly better chance that some of those loans will
actually get repaid...

~~~
jbooth
How much did the taxpayers give the oil industry last year again? Pretty sure
the number starts with a B, and >10 of them.

Meanwhile, I love the idea of us selling electric power trains to the
Japanese, rather than them selling them to Detroit. Makes me feel like we're
doing something right.

~~~
forkandwait
In the last six months, I shifted my loyalty to Toyota from lame US car
companies. I respect Toyota -- as a maker of fantastic cars, a moderate-
thinking and compensating long term business, and as a good employer of US
citizens. US car manufactures make shitty cars, sell out their future for
bonuses for their shitty executives, and treat their unionized employees like
shit (and according to NPR more of a Toyota is built in the US than a US car).

I am proud to support Toyota, and the sooner the Big Three are forced to sell
out out to "the japanese" the better.

~~~
smhinsey
For what it's worth, Toyota built a plant in my hometown and of the 4 people I
know who got jobs there, all of them eventually quit due to the anti-union
shenanigans pulled by management. They are a good company, but not without
their flaws. (And to be fair, I'm not sure how much of this behavior was
influenced by corporate policy vs. typical small town closemindedness.)

~~~
forkandwait
You know, I don't support unions as automatically as I used to. From my
amateur interest in Toyota and industrial management, one of the major
problems with unions isn't wages but inflexible work rules, seniority attached
to certain very minutely defined jobs and no accompanying cross training/
rotation, and general bad attitude.

~~~
smhinsey
I've never worked for one, but it wasn't an ideological thing. If you worked
with people for more than 6 months or so, you'd get your team broken up. If
management found out that you were friends with a group of coworkers and were
getting together outside of work, you'd get reassigned so none of you were
working together. It was the harassment to prevent people from unionizing that
that made it a bad working environment.

~~~
forkandwait
Yeah, that is sort of weird if it is like that. I don't have any personal
experience at all, not even secondhand... but I know Toyota rotates people
around all the time according to the books I am reading about them (which do
have rose colored viewpoints). I hate to say it, but I have worked with
production factory workers who would whine about anything -- having to do
inventory, learn a new skill, meet a new person; I am a bit cynical about
their complaints. Does "getting reassigned" == "harassment" ? maybe...

~~~
smhinsey
This was pretty specifically anti-union behavior, although obviously nothing
was done that would generate any paper trail. I am sure there was some
exaggeration due to human nature, but it is basically an open secret that
large non-union shops will do just about anything to prevent unions from
forming.

It may be different for line employees, the people I knew worked skilled
trades, electrician, hvac, etc.

~~~
forkandwait
Interesting. I am not sure I blame them for fighting the unions, honestly, but
there you go.

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mcphilip
Sensible move by Toyota considering it owned a 2.9% stake of Tesla as of last
year.

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erickhill
I love the Tesla cars and nearly twist my head off whenever I see one, but
can't help from wondering if they will eventually be viewed in the future much
as the Delorean is today. Without the epic collapse of the founder, of course,
but purely due to economics.

~~~
rglover
You make a good point. If they go the route of just selling the technology to
existing car companies, then it's very likely that they'll spend more time on
those efforts than producing their own vehicles. If they can get the price on
their cars to match that of the average vehicle, they'll be a staple for sure.

~~~
sliverstorm
Remember that even with the Tesla roadster, they still pretty much only made
the power train. The rest of the platform was basically licensed from Lotus.

[http://www.carsconcepthub.info/images/lotus-
elise%20%281%29....](http://www.carsconcepthub.info/images/lotus-
elise%20%281%29.jpg)

Notice the similarity?

~~~
pbreit
They weren't getting much more than the shell from Lotus.

~~~
bigohms
And chassis/space frame

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13ideas
I remember reading the wired magazine article for this. Some people can
actually benefit from an economy like this. You can buy things for a fraction
of a price they were before. Although, that is a double edged sword. In this
economy, your own money falls as well.

