
No, Linux won't be easy to run on a Microsoft Surface - Garbage
http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/21189.html
======
mediocregopher
> Booting Linux on these devices would involve finding a flaw in the firmware
> and using that to run arbitrary code

Considering there hasn't been a major console (including xbox) that's been
immune from crackers running arbitrary code, I'm pretty confident that we'll
be seeing linux running on the surface at some point. Unfortunately the
article's title is probably accurate; It's probably going to be too difficult
for someone who's not a very-motivated linux fan to do it.

It's a shame too, when I first saw the surface my initial reaction was "Holy
crap, if I can wipe it and put Arch on it it's the perfect mobile laptop
replacement, I'll buy it for sure". Oh well, guess I'll have to wait to see
how easy the jailbreak is.

~~~
mjg59
Nobody's broken the AppleTV v3 yet, despite v2s going for well above original
sale price on Ebay due to their hackability. Sometimes the difficulty/payoff
ratio isn't sufficient for anyone to find a flaw.

(Or maybe everyone who could produce a jailbreak for the v3s is engaged in a
lucrative business selling v2s on Ebay)

~~~
Xuzz
The reason the Apple TV 3 hasn't been jailbroken is because it provides a tiny
attack surface. There's no web browser to exploit, and there's no iTunes
syncing. So even when exploits have been found in various parts of iOS, most
of those parts either don't exist or inaccessible on the Apple TV.

~~~
killahpriest
As chpwn, are you still involved in the jailbreak community?

(btw sent from the news:yc app).

------
joenathan
There is no such thing as the Microsoft Surface, there is the Microsoft
Surface RT(ARM) and the Microsoft Surface Pro(x86). The Surface RT, like most
ARM devices(Android & iOS included) has a locked bootloader. The Surface Pro
on the other hand will have the option to "unlock" the bootloader by disabling
secure boot.

I do wish Microsoft would take the "high road" and offer the same option to
disable secure boot on the Surface RT.

~~~
marshray
Or retain secure boot with a method for a knowledgeable user to install an
additional trusted master key.

------
sown
I get the impression that in the future I'll be the old UNIX beard guy telling
youngin-s and interns that one time I could just throw Gnu/Linux or BSD on
just about whatever hardware.

~~~
sown
Or better yet, you could even write your own OS on new hardware and not have
to get permission (or whatever it is we have to do in the future).

~~~
betterunix
Write your own OS? How about writing software at all? The future will be a
world where "consumer" computers will not be allowed to run software that was
not approved by some corporation, and where programmers will have to pay an
annual fee just to have the ability to program (which could be lost without
notice and without any refund).

"Back in my day, we learned to program by just programming! I used to practice
my programming skills on whatever computer I could get my hands on when I was
your age...you kids will never understand how much the world has changed..."

~~~
sown
I think I need to learn about hardware design.

I hope we don't end up like gaming console ecosystem: developer machines cost
3x-10x what a consumer version

------
jeswin
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that MS is doing the right thing
by insisting that hardware makers give users a choice. Microsoft _requires_
that Windows 8 certified devices have an option to disable Secure Boot. They
still get blamed though.

Surface RT doesn't have that option, because it is exactly like the iPad
except that it is going to be far less popular. To be fair, if there is anyone
to be blamed for this alarming trend of locking things down, it is Apple.

~~~
jacquesm
You can't really blame Apple for something Microsoft does. Microsoft is large
enough to buck the trend.

~~~
jeswin
I am not blaming Apple for something Microsoft did. I am blaming them for
making it acceptable to lock things down.

~~~
jacquesm
It's not acceptable, it is just that the people in the target audience don't
care.

~~~
Paradigma11
I see, it's not acceptable. It's just that most people accept it.

~~~
jlgreco
The majority accepting something has nothing to do with whether or not that
something is acceptable. This is the concept behind the idea of the tyranny of
the masses.

The tyranny of the masses has traditionally been held back by enacting rules
of law that the masses have no interest in. In this particular case, that
would be consumer protection laws that the majority of consumers would not
care about.

------
rizzom5000
This is one business decision I fail to fully comprehend.

First of all, the number of people interested in dual-boot or otherwise are
likely to be small. But even so, why drive away potential customers and
business? If the hardware is what people want, isn't it your goal, as a
business, to give them the hardware; and to give your shareholders the profits
from the sale of said hardware?

I don't see the win in a decision like this. It's a lose lose situation that
could be a win win.

~~~
forgottenpaswrd
"I don't see the win in a decision like this. It's a lose lose situation that
could be a win win."

Well, they want the alternatives to their product to be difficult to install
so people remain in the Windows world or MS ecosystem.

When there is no alternative, there is a monopoly and you could raise your
profits as much as you want, they will pay, econ 101.

Microsoft had been reaping a 90% and 95% margin from their Windows and MS
Office products just because of their monopoly, and +30% in their global
business(after spending billions on "me too" projects like bing, zune, winmo,
lumia or xbox, witch lost billions before getting profitable).

------
primitur
I think the only way forward is for some manufacturer to step up and design
hardware that will run Linux, yet be competitive with the features of Surface.

We're only worrying about this entire issue because the mass market,
presumably, will adopt Surface - and thus Microsofts standard lockout policies
- and thus 'all the cheap hardware wont be available to us'.

But, there is absolutely nothing stopping a hardware manufacturer from
stepping up and saying - well, here's a laptop that is just as nice, but no
lockout. Companies like Always-Innovating ( _shudder_ ) have attempted it in
the past - sure, its not easy, but it may be easier than getting Surface
cracked, or the US/EU/Chinese Governments to apply anti-monopoly legislation
to Microsoft/et al.

I know, its expensive to get this done properly, but if there is an
opportunity here, its in the Hardware Startup realm. It is fraught with danger
and problem at all fronts, but then again .. people said that the raspberry-pi
project wouldn't work. They said it about the Open Pandora. They said it about
Always Innovating. It really is just a matter of pushing harder, persisting
through the storms, and I believe the market is there.

In fact, OpenPandora2 could very well be the solution to this entire dilemna.
The OP guys have had a rough time of it, but they're still in the ring .. if
only someone like Valve or so on would get a bit more muscle behind them, we'd
see the OpenPandora2 (or whatever) step into the ring and start competing just
fine, methinks ..

EDIT: Take a look at this thing and tell me its not a few small hardware-
revisions away from being an ideal Surface competitor:
<http://www.openpandora.org/> It may well be 5 years behind the tech curve,
but the damn thing works so well, and yet was created by VOLUNTEERS and
PIONEERS who, indeed, have emerged from the Linux/OpenSource eco-sphere, under
the radar of the mainstream to start actually delivering. I know, the numbers
aren't there (they haven't hit 5000 users yet), but just imagine what it could
be if a little more muscle were put behind this project from someone like
Valve ..

~~~
lucian1900
That's basically the Asus Transformer. Or some other Android tablet.

------
Xuzz
This is no different than on the iPad. And as with the iPad, finding a
security hole to work around the signature requirements is very simple
compared to actually porting Linux. Indeed, as the Surface is a new product,
I'd guess it might actually be much easier to find such a flaw than it has
been on the iPad — which has had multiple such flaws discovered and exploited
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#Recent_release...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#Recent_releases_of_jailbreaking_tools)).

~~~
daeken
There's an amazing lack of interest in Surface jailbreaking, though. I was
running a Chip-in to pick up a Surface RT (primarily to gauge interest). Even
with you, comex, and a bunch of other people retweeting it, it ended up
getting a grand total of $80. And that was from a demographic that's deeply
interested in such jailbreaks.

The likelihood of a device being broken is almost purely a function of
interest; the interest just isn't there for the Surface, which is why the
money I got is going to the EFF rather than buying a device (my contingency if
the project didn't raise enough or raised too much).

~~~
Xuzz
There's just an amazing lack of interest in the Surface altogether — except,
apparently, from the freedom groups still upset about Microsoft while mostly
ignoring the rest of the industry.

------
orionblastar
How about a Boycott of computer devices that you cannot install an alternative
OS on like Linux?

This new Firmware is designed to keep Malware off PCs, but it also keeps
competition to Windows off PCs as well. Time for another DOJ investigation of
Microsoft for locking out competition?

~~~
w1ntermute
> How about a Boycott of computer devices that you cannot install an
> alternative OS on like Linux?

You couldn't get most of HN to do something like this, let alone the general
public.

~~~
sounds
Sad but true.

On the other hand, the average customer doesn't even want to go through the
trouble of buying a device and then having to load the OS on it. Arguably it's
a red herring to worry about the Surface. Let it succeed or fail. But you can
be sure I won't buy one.

~~~
rayiner
What's sad about it? I can't replace the OS in my car after all. I can replace
the OS on my cell phone now, but it used to be the case that you couldn't and
that was just peachy.

~~~
jlgreco
Maybe it is sad from his perspective because it is something he would be
interested in doing?

Just because it is an appliance that _you_ are not interested in modifying
doesn't mean that _he_ should not be disappointed...

~~~
rayiner
At least how I read it, the "sad but true" was in reference to the fact that
people on HN didn't care that you couldn't modify it, not his personal
disappointment.

~~~
jlgreco
Right.. he is personally disappointed that others do not share his interests.
He isn't suggesting that you should be similarly disappointed.

Obviously if he thinks the general HN crowd isn't interested he doesn't expect
the general HN crowd to be saddened by that fact.

------
meaty
Just don't buy one then even if you want one. Oh wait, that's exactly what
people are doing already :)

~~~
orionblastar
People are buying them in big numbers because they don't know any better.
Those buying the Windows RT device can't seem to figure out why it won't run
their Legacy X86 Windows apps. There is a sucker born every minute, PT Barnum.

