
Ask HN: Are you happy, well-rounded? (dealing w/ depression/lack of motivation) - asym
HN, I ask this question here as I'm unsure of where else to go with it. I'm sure a lot of people like myself are members (mid-20s, striving to be self-actualized and think about life goals and happiness, or went through this before) and I'm sure <i>someone</i> dealt with something similar. I have basically lost the motivation to do anything, in my professional and personal lives and am sure it's something akin to a quarter-life crisis.<p>More importantly, I have lost the ability to tell if and what I want anything from life. I have been a few years out of grad school; the train tracks of school/first job are fading. I have no idea where I want to live, no idea what I want to be doing, no idea where I want to be doing it and no idea what will actually make me happy. Or if I do know exactly where I want to live, I'm always terrified that I'll regret the move later.<p>This is affecting me emotionally, hurting my relationship with my long-term girlfriend (hopefully soon fiance), and is much more severe than what I've experienced before. I am going to make an apointment with a psychologist, but after a few unsuccessful attempts to appeal to parents and friends, I'm not sure what else who else to turn to or how to proceed.<p>Some people say this is what entering adulthood's like, but everyone around me seems to be perfectly fine.<p>Thank you in advance for any advice and I hope it helps someone else who's going through something similar.
======
edkennedy
I have felt something similar in the last few months, and have been feeling
the repercussions since then. Everything around me in my life was wonderful,
in fact it was the best it's ever been. Deeply in love, working at a highly
paid highly skilled job, enjoying my free time and continuing to improve my
living situation. However, I felt a sincere lack of motivation and my results
had started to decline.

Recently I have gotten back on track. What assisted me in that process was:
1\. Talking about my feelings and listening to the life experience of my
partner. This is humbling. You are not alone. 2\. Getting back to the gym.
This was a huge motivating force, getting your blood pumping makes you feel
alive and is the quickest way to get to where you want to be. I also changed
my diet (no more coffee, alcohol, junk food). This takes self discipline. 3\.
Lastly I remembered to have fun. The most stressful times for me was when I
forgot to do the things that made me happy. Celebration is another part of
being alive.

~~~
asym
I agree with you on #2: going to the gym and traveling to work on my hobby
(travel for rock climbing) has helped me feel a lot better in the moment, but
ultimately feels like I'm putting off what's actually bothering me.

My diet is good already, but I feel like I should relax it a little bit (more
social drinking, maybe a little more junkfood) as it will help me be less pre-
planned and more free-flowing and social. I consider myself introverted (as
many guessed and seemed clear), but am not stereotypically introverted: I have
many close friends and don't have ridiculous anxiety attacks when meeting
people. (Sometimes I do though).

~~~
mistermann
Just relax more, if you frequent places like HN, you can easily get a feeling
of inadequacy, don't fret about it. You're in your mid 20's, lot of people her
are in their 40's and 50's. As for the occasional anxiety when meeting people,
just do your thing, become truly competent in the things you consider to be
important....once you have this, the anxiety will disappear I suspect.

When you get older and things like family start to pull on your attention,
you'll realize that if you really gave it your best shot, that's good enough,
whether you were a famous smashing success or not. Just work towards being
happy for yourself, not towards what you perceive the community expects you to
achieve.

------
johnnyg
I'm 28, own successful businesses and have plowed this ground. These aren't
going to be standard answers, but its what has helped me. YMMV.

1\. Get in a situation where you can balls out fight. I prefer jiu-jitsu but
did TKD for a while too. We live in a controlled, over analyzed society. You
talked about going to a shrink. That's valid but consider the alternative -
you are so controlled and repressed that what you need is to get on the mat
with someone else and just struggle/wrestle/fight. You'll know inside 1 minute
if this is what was lacking. If its wrong, you are bruised but only out a free
class.

2\. Plant roots, literally. I live in suburbia. A little "grow your own veggie
by the window" kit was more depressing than fulfilling. I'm not sure what it
was, but something inside me snapped. One too many fake plastic meals out
perhaps. I bought $1000 worth of dirt and had it dropped on my driveway. I
went to home depot and with the help of my lovely wife, measured out and
bought wood and stakes. I worked all weekend outside, in the sun, in the rain,
hauling dirt, figuring out how to plant stuff without killing it (mixed
initial results). It was a lot of time to think. It was also hard and frankly,
it was very nice to sit back down to work on redmine tickets. Best of all, a
whole garden sprouted up and we had food for weeks that WE grew. Since then,
my backyard has become a huge orchard as well as a home owners association
show down in the making. It makes me feel connected to life and growth. It
makes me feel like I stake my rugged individualist claim. Likely its more me
playing in the dirt in the back yard, but it settles me down and centers me.

3\. Catholic mass. I was raised Baptist and am now agnostic. As a kid, I
attended three churches destroyed by infighting and backstabbing. I'm not
really thrilled with Christianity, or at least Jesus's current merry band of
salesmen. None the less, go sit in a Catholic mass once a month on a random
week night. Its great. So peaceful. It gets you out of your shell. Best part,
no baptist style "welcome the guests" stuff at most masses. Just a bunch of
people running through the ancient traditions and singing nicely. I would
advise you pass on the free bread and wine though, in case it turns out its
all true.

4\. Your Relationships. Are they solid? Are they long term oriented? I'm not
sure if its a skill or a choice or what, but everyone I know that's happy is a
long term relationship builder.

My sincere best wishes to you. Push on!

~~~
ddemchuk
For the love of god yes, everyone here, start a garden. When you find yourself
pissed because ssh is taking too long, being able to go outside and water your
plants that won't be flowering for another two months is a welcomed slap back
into reality. I can't believe how much it keeps you grounded, it's crazy.

~~~
tmsh
It's funny how much founders like gardening. I wonder if there's something to
that.

~~~
oscardelben
Gardening is an activity that involves a lot of thinking and more importantly
it's not a quick fix. You learn to value your time and expect results after
months.

------
yummyfajitas
I went through this a couple of years ago. I got out of grad school, and
started my postdoc. For the previous 8 years (undergrad + grad school), I had
a well defined track: grad school -> PhD -> postdoc -> research professor ->
tenure. During my postdoc, I realized I didn't like a great deal of the day to
day work of academia: teaching, writing papers, applying for grants, hyping
your work. The job I succeeded in getting was not the job I thought it was. I
went through the exact stage of uncertainty you are describing.

Then I decided to forget about a long term plan and focus on day to day
living. I took up Eskrima (Filipino martial arts), something I wanted to do
for a long time. I broke up with my long term girlfriend and decided to leave
the academic track. I still don't know where I want to live or what I want to
be doing (in the long term), but I don't need to know that.

Yesterday I went for a run (my first this year). I found a new job (trader at
a hedge fund) which I enjoy day to day. Most tuesday nights I fight with
sticks. I drink more beer, am in better physical shape and am simply happier.
I don't have the answers to your big questions (where to live, what to do),
but I don't need answers.

So, my suggestion: don't worry about the future, focus on things right now.

~~~
wallflower
Read this post by fiaz about trading sometime:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=121413>

------
dotBen
I started to go through this a few years ago and I'm slowly recovering from it
(I'm 28 now).

The experience cost me my marriage (although that may have been a good thing,
looking back on it) but it also cost me a lot in terms of opportunity cost.

You could write a book on this subject but my advice in a nutshell is to find
a therapist. If you are like me (and most HN'ers) - highly logic brained -
then it can be hard to grasp by yourself the mixed emotions you are feeling in
sidw. If, like me, you are really only surrounded by loads of other geek logic
brained folk, then there can be few people to really talk this stuff through
with - which is why I found informal therapy (counseling, not heavy going
psychotherapy) useful rather than chatting with friends, etc.

I worked with my therapist on getting beyond my logic-orientated
rationalization thinking and getting a much better understanding of who I am
and what I want.

If the original poster wants to drop me an email to chat more, I'd be
delighted to talk more.

~~~
nosse
This helped me a lot, and has worked for my friends.

In my case it was more about illogical sabotage of my own work. I thought I
was just lazy, but when I started to realize I was using more energy avoiding
my work than doing it would have required. Going to therapist may seem stupid
at first, but it starts working only after you've done it couple of times.

------
figured
"I am going to make an appointment with a psychologist"

Make the appointment tomorrow morning! The people here not advocating seeking
professional help, are the same people who have never received help. Trust me,
seeing a psychologist is the single best thing you can do. If you had a
physical illness, this type of question would not even be asked, mental health
problems are just as serious and should be treated that way.

Also if it doesn't work out with the first psychologist, don't get
discouraged. Just make another appointment, and find one that fits your style.
Dude, lots of people have been in your position, but the ones that are happy
today are the ones who treated it as seriously as they treat all other aspects
of their health.

Good luck,

Edit: as much as it is good to talk about this with friends and family, they
really don't have the tools to help you overcome this. People think you just
need to cheer up, or pat you on the back. Happiness is journey, for some its
easy and for some it takes time and effort.

~~~
philwelch
I have received professional help myself. I would not necessarily recommend it
--I've been in a similar situation and it did next to nothing for me. I
wouldn't necessarily recommend against it, either--I'm just not "advocating"
it, in your words.

~~~
figured
point noted, I just thing like most things in life you have to find something
that suits you. But I would recommend that if you don't have a pleasant
experience the first time out switch doctors. I think sometimes people forget
that not all care is the same, and your health is your responsibility. So find
someone that fits you, instead of sticking with someone even though you are
feeling that you are not getting anything out of it, or quitting altogether.

------
raganwald
Well, if you're feeling depressed, I can only tell you about something that
helped me: Dr. Martin Seligman's book "Learned Optimism." I wrote a little
about my perspective on it about a year ago:

[http://github.com/raganwald/homoiconic/blob/master/2009-05-0...](http://github.com/raganwald/homoiconic/blob/master/2009-05-01/optimism.md#readme)

I'm sorry that isn't a grand, unified answer to everything, but if it helps
you even a little I would be delighted.

~~~
tokenadult
_Dr. Martin Seligman's book "Learned Optimism."_

Very useful, a suggestion well worth following up on.

------
Groxx
Typically, when I edge down this path, I de-clutter my life. Stuff weighs you
down more than anything else, and it's a constant drain on your energy and
money. Stop doing things that are unnecessary, get rid of some stuff you don't
/ won't use, and generally purge your life of everything that really doesn't
matter. It'll free up a lot of free time, and likely money-pressure too.

Once you've got that, take your new-found free time, and do some experimenting
/ soul-searching. Odds are you "know" what you want, you just don't "know" it.
And if you don't, maybe you'll discover it. Take each day as it comes, and
_don't re-clutter_ until you've figured things out.

I've also found that music typically helps me _a lot_ , so I make sure to get
some frequently. And no, everyone is _not_ handling it "just fine". Everyone
struggles at some point, you may just be hitting it earlier / later than those
around you. Or they're just hiding it, which is likely more harmful than
seeking help, so congratulations. You're already part-way down the correct
road.

edit: mimicing what edkennedy says, I've also found that decent exercise and
good food are very important. Food's extremely responsible for well-being, but
it's easy to devalue.

~~~
asym
> Typically, when I edge down this path, I de-clutter my life. Stuff weighs
> you down more than anything else, and it's a constant drain on your energy
> and money. Stop doing things that are unnecessary, get rid of some stuff you
> don't / won't use, and generally purge your life of everything that really
> doesn't matter. It'll free up a lot of free time, and likely money-pressure
> too.

Thank you for confirming what I was already going to do. I am planning to
donate or sell everything I don't absolutely need.

~~~
failquicker
I agree that this is a most beneficial/therapeutic exercise. I started doing
it 5 years ago, and it has helped immensely. I am much more agile now.

Something else that I have done is keep a "junk journal" where I have taken a
picture of all of the stuff that I have sold/donated/given away. After a few
years you can look back and go "Wow...I really had a ton of crap"

It's funny how we think we own stuff, but it can really own us.

------
njl
I've been dealing with what you describe for most of my life, and I've been
actively attacking it for the past fifteen years.

If I had one thing I could get across to anyone, it's that happiness is a
state of mind and a habit, not the result of outside factors. You choose to be
happy or unhappy. It's all in your head, although it's a good idea to adjust
your environment to ensure happiness. Exercise, happy entertainment, and happy
friends all help.

I refuse to accept that adulthood is about acknowledging limits and settling
into a static and subtlety unsatisfying existence. I believe I only have one
life to live, and I refuse to waste it. I want to add value to the world, and
I am frothing at the mouth to do so. That's what I believe being an adult is
-- accepting responsibility for my own life, acknowledging the values of
other's lives, and then doing my best to add as much value to the world as
possible.

As for your fear of making real decisions about where to live, your
uncertainty about what will make you happy... Risk is an essential element of
being alive. Very few choices are reversible; you don't have kids. Make some
bold choices, make some stupid choices, but be alive. Move somewhere and take
a weird job. Try a start up. Take a chance at something, anything. That's what
being alive _is_.

Realize that everything ends up working out in the end, give yourself a kick
in the ass, and go have a life that fucking matters.

Good luck.

------
hesdeadjim
First off, re: the "but everyone around me seems to be perfectly fine" line.
Everybody may _look_ fine, but what is going on under the surface might be
entirely different. When I was in the darkest depression of my life only a few
select people close to me even knew how I was feeling. To the rest of the
world I put on a good display of acting happy and motivated, but on the inside
I felt directionless and... empty.

Anyways, after reading your post and comparing it with my experience I would
say you sound depressed. Life seems to have lost meaning, the things that once
gave you pleasure no longer do, etc. If you see a psychiatrist they will most
likely recommend an anti-depressant. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. I
take a small dose of Celexa that leaves me feeling no side effects whatsoever
and removed the suicidal thoughts and feelings that used to wash over me like
a tsunami.

However, in my opinion (and let me stress that it is an opinion, I am not a
doctor or psychotherapist), drugs alone don't seem to work well. Things didn't
change that much for me until I was forced to face my alcohol problem. As a
consequence of doing a 12-step program and facing my fears, insecurities, and
resentments, I began to find some measure of peace and fulfillment that I had
always found lacking. My life began to change, I began to feel a sense of
purpose and excitement to life, and my depression eventually lifted
completely. I have also discovered a spiritual side of myself that I never
expected to find.

I'm not sure if that helps at all, but at least know that you aren't alone and
that things will get better if you are willing to make changes. Hope the road
is easier for you than it was for me!

------
niels_olson
Lots of good comments. Some consistent themes:

1) physical labor (gardening, kitesurfing, etc): provides endorphins you're
not going to get from a desk, and Vitamin D from the sunshine. Both are needed
for a stable mood.

2) Socialization (mass, relationships, travel): plus-minus. Without some
retooling of your thought patterns, more talking with the same people isn't
necessarily going to help. Regarding travel, I wonder if there is an element
of physical labor and sunshine in that as well.

3) therapy: the standard for depression is cognitive-behavioral therapy, which
has two main components: a) identifying problems and making concrete progress
on resolving them b) re-tooling your automatic thoughts: "If A then B". Andy
Thompson, a U of Virginia psychiatrist has a very provocative theory making
the rounds, which I'm somewhat partial too: the analytic rumination
hypothesis. Fits in well with the effectiveness of the first part of CBT.
([http://andersonthomson.com/wp-
content/uploads/2009/10/Andrew...](http://andersonthomson.com/wp-
content/uploads/2009/10/Andrews_Thomson_PsychReview_2009.pdf))

4) meds: he SSRIs appear to be not so helpful for mild-to-moderate depression
(<http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/303/1/47>). Different story
for major depression. If you don't remember 8 months of your life, then Prozac
may well be for you. Regarding Omega-3 fatty acids: yeah, they raise your HDL
a little bit, and maybe they're ok for maintaining optimal complex fats for
the nervous system (myelin, etc), but few Americans have any problem with
adequate fat intake :-)

Finally, I'm starting to wonder if depressive tendencies are a recurring theme
in the HN population in particular. Certainly negative thinkers are well
positioned to identify new problems early and work on fixing them. How would
one test this hypothesis?

------
rjurney
Travel. Leave the country for a good long while. Go to India. Go to Russia. Go
to Africa. Go to the middle east. Go to asia. Save $5K and live on $3 a day
for a while. There's a long list of cheap countries where you can just hang
out. Pick the one that interests you, and start there.

Nothing gives you perspective and connects you with real life than... real
life, as most of humanity lives it. Get out there and spend six months or a
year just floating. I think you'll find that eventually you see the point of
things back home, that you'll remember what is important to you.

And when you come back, everything will be new, and you'll be you.

That, or get yourself some Paxil.

------
rphlx
Mid 20s extroverts appear to punt these kinds of concerns by drinking and
sleeping around shamelessly. I'm still investigating if that really works.

~~~
ErrantX
Meh. It doesn't work so well, you realise they are just constantly on the game
to avoid the same problems.

Eventually it got boring too; I figured out that there was actually no real
challenge in it.

However, short term it might be useful. It helped me grow - but I wouldn't say
it is sustainable long term.

------
smachimo
I am mostly an on-looker during these discussions, however I had somewhat of a
similar situation myself awhile back. I've ran a company for several years
now, and although I am still in my early 20s, I hit somewhat of a similar
hurdle. At the time, nothing seemed to really interest me within my everyday
life, but along came something that would change my entire life thereafter -
KITESURFING.

One of the common quirks of a kitesurfer is their passion and "stoke" for the
sport. And today, I would probably be that same kiter, setting up at the local
spot grinning like an idiot just waiting to get out on the water or snow. My
life took a complete 180 when it came to what I thought was important in life
- going from always concerned about work and the future to just living in the
moment and enjoying myself now. I literally plan my weeks around the wind
forecast now, but as far as right now, I wouldn't want it any other way. I
understand that my attitude might be a typical phase coming from a young guy,
however, the fellow kiters that I've met over the years who are all 40+
usually share this same attitude and most of them couldn't be happier. Today,
this entire experience has taught just to do things that I enjoy and not worry
so much. Although somewhat hippyish, it does not mean you can't be successful
and live like this - I still have strong ambitions to get my startups off the
ground among other things - I just sneak out when the wind picks up :)

Kiting will never be the right sport for anyone and maybe not the answer to
your situation. But if anything else, I would recommend you figure out your
safe-zone, define it, and than, take a step outside it just to see what
happens. And even if that first step doesn't change your situation, it will at
least provide the grit to take another. I would recommend kitesurfing being
your first step, but that might be a bit biased :P

And I guess that concludes my first post on HN. Hope it helped!

Dominic

~~~
endgame
I'm also early 20's, just moved out from home, but I discovered tall ship
sailing instead of kiting. (Actually, I'd done a 10-day voyage on the Sail
Training Ship Young Endeavour before that and that's what made me keen for
more.)

I'm (trainee) volunteer crew of a replica tall ship called the Enterprize.
She's a replica built with period techniques and materials as much as
possible. Tarred hemp ropes, hand-turned belaying pins, hand-sewn sails, that
sort of thing. The ship's mission is to maintain a piece of living history
that the general public can access.

It sounds like kitesurfing grabbed you like the Enterprize grabbed me: the
major consideration when I'm planning a weekend now is whether or not I can
sail.

I've found that I've met an entirely different class of people in tall ships
than most other things I've done. There's a real difference in the
interactions, like the forcefield that people put up when they're in
commute/work mode is gone. It's not just the crew, either. The sort of people
who sign on as passengers are often easy to talk to and have fascinating
stories to tell.

Perhaps it's the wind? Keeping lookout while the wind's blowing through you is
a fantastic feeling. Perhaps it's the chance to do something physical and
immediate? Working together to get a sail set right is extremely satisfying.

I guess that concludes _my_ first post on HN.

------
tumblen
Great question and the fact that you are coming here to seek help is a great
sign, I'd say.

I'm in a different situation: 22, dropped out of school to start a company,
etc. But, I have committed myself to developing a satisfying general lifestyle
(getting there) so, maybe there are some overlaps.

Here are some thoughts:

1\. In the moments when I feel most stuck and unmotivated it is usually
because there is something looming over me that I "have to do."

It's taken time, but developing the mindset that I truly do not _have to_ do
anything has allowed me actually drop the anxiety and become truly excited
about my work.

What are your expectations about what you _should be_ doing? Maybe if you ease
up on them, you'll find a new wave of motivation along a new path.

2\. It sounds to me like you, more than anything, need some exploration in
your life. But, you are afraid of the risks.

My suggestion here is to take time to define clearly what you are afraid of,
what the worst case scenarios are and how to sidestep them.

Additionally, lighten physical and mental load. Can you and your girlfriend
sell the bulk of your stuff, tie down any loose ends and explore the World
without making any living commitments for a few months?

3\. Set small challenges daily (2-3), write them down every morning along with
the very specific next action that you need to do to get the ball rolling.

When you complete all your challenges, put a big red x on the calendar. With
each challenge, you will feel better and better and as the red X's grow, it
will be clear how much you've accomplished.

(Someone else suggested exercise, that is a great daily challenge.)

4\. I write ~1600 words daily in MacJournal, just a total brain dump. I don't
worry about spelling, grammar or paragraphs I just type. I very rarely go back
and read old ones.

Somehow, just the act of typing through my thoughts, getting them out and
throwing them around has had an incredible impact on my mood, motivation, etc.
I feel like my own therapist.

5\. I think Steve Pavlina's book, Personal Development for Smart People, is
one of the most complete and impactful books on improving your lifestyle. In
particular, there are some great thoughts on finding your purpose on life.
Highly recommended.

Again, props to you for grappling with these emotions and talking about them
publicly. Keep exploring them with others.

Feel free to get in touch with me to discuss more, I'd love to hear how things
pan out!

------
rlt
If it helps, you're _definitely_ not alone.

I'm 25. By all accounts my life is pretty good. I've got a fairly promising
startup going. And yet I feel like I haven't matured _at all_ since midway
through college. I don't feel like I imagined I would at 25.

~~~
Cyranix
Another 25-year-old in the same situation (not leading a startup,
participating in one). Many thanks to the OP and all commenters; it seems like
there are a lot of eyes on this thread.

------
yeeyay
I am paraphrasing what a wise man has said,

the best way to get into a depression is to constantly think about "me,me and
me" AND the best way to snap out of it is to start thinking about others, how
can I help others.

~~~
keeptrying
This may sound really shallow at first but seriously this does work. I would
recommend taking baby steps in this regard. Start with opening doors for
elderly people etc upto helping a co-worker on some work who isnt doing too
well at work. Small measured goals which eventually change your thinking.

------
iambvk
My situation was also something similar, but not quiet the same. I live in
India with relatively simpler life style, and had a high paying job, but I
always felt something was lacking in my life and was not happy (i don't think
i felt depressed.) What I did was:

I quit the job and went back to my college and asked my professor to let me
stay in the college for some time. I had some savings that i can live by for
an year or two (with my simple life style.)

With all the free time I got, was finally able to contribute to an interesting
free software project, that matched with my skill set. This made me feel a lot
good, my stay enjoyable and busy.

At the same time, i started attending interesting courses in the college (for
free), learning new stuff, have technical discussions with students, etc. I am
also taking care of my health and fitness in a much better way. Its been just
5-6 months and I feel a lot energetic and useful now.

I don't know how long i could stay like this; I don't know how far i can stay
unmarried (remember, i am an Indian and 29). I have absolutely no idea what
future holds, but am having fun right now :)

~~~
luckystrike

      I don't know how long i could stay like this; 
      I don't know how far i can stay unmarried (remember, i am an Indian and 29).
    

I can relate to that .. :-). I think you are doing great, and am sure this
would turn out really well for you.

------
jolie
Most adults go through something like this. You start to realize you're not as
successful/confident/responsible/etc. as you thought you'd be by now, and you
kinda freak out about it.

Losing motivation and feeling lost -- just about everyone I know has been
there both personally and professionally at least once in their mid-20s.
Seeing a psychologist might be good, but if I could give you a word of advice,
I'd just tell you to start expressing bits and pieces of these feelings to
others you trust. Chances are, everyone else has dealt with or is dealing with
similar issues and will know what to say about your specific situation and
personality.

I wish you lots of luck in your "striving to be self-actualized," as you put
it, and I truly wish you happiness! Being ambitious is tough; the flip side of
that coin is never being satisfied. Sounds to me like you have a little bit of
both going on.

------
froo
Go see your doctor. You can confide in him/her and never underestimate the
wonders of pharmaceuticals.

I became severely depressed as a result of a combination of things. Studying 2
degrees at once was fine, however in the last 2 years of my university work my
father died from heart attack and my brother committed suicide shortly after.

I'm pretty sure I had a breakdown at one point, there is about 8 months of my
life I don't remember living.

Anyway, I spoke to my doctor, he put me on Prozac which I've been on ever
since. Magic stuff.

That combined with taking care of myself both physically and emotionally has
kept me going.

Also, I found that it is true, talking to friends about your troubles does
help. You might be too proud to do so, but trust me, the alternative is far
worse.

------
NEPatriot
Read the War of Art by Stephen Pressman. He puts a name to this beast and
calls it resistance. Most of us have gone through it. He openly discusses it
and talks about the battles against it.

~~~
pushingbits
s/Stephen Pressman/Steven Pressfield/

Also has a blog: <http://blog.stevenpressfield.com/>

The Writing Wednesday section contains the pieces related to resistance.

------
imperator
You have to be careful with something like this because you might be
clinically depressed.

I developed anxiety and depression when I was in college. Part of that was a
feeling I wasn't achieving anything of note, or learning anything worthwhile.
I had thought undergraduate education would be a splendid ivory tower, but it
turned out most of my peers did not prioritize a sense of adventurous learning
or a delight in knowledge. I learned a mismatch between reality and
expectations can drive you, but also cripple you if it is to great.

I think your decision to see a psychologist is a good one. I saw a
psychiatrist and it helped me recover and develop a functioning and enjoyable
life. Also, make sure it's a psychologist you work well with. Don't settle for
one that you don't work well with.

Also, it is difficult to know if a decision will make us happy in advance. We
can develop a feeling of knowing in advance, but it's not always there to
guide us.

A lot of people will say, exercise, go to therapy, take a vacation. The thing
to remember is that you are unique and your solutions will be unique. And that
you are not alone. We all get lost.

------
lallysingh
I've been pretty deep in depression before and am only a few years (2?) out of
it.

First, what you're going through is, no matter how shitty it feels, a good
thing. You're starting to notice that most of the things you thought were
important were actually important to other people you listen to.

Here's a start (atop of whatever else you see that you like in the comments
here): write a list of priorities, eyeball 10-15 of them. Then cross off all
but 2-3. See if you'd be happy ( _not_ what makes other people, their, or your
expectations happy, but _you_ happy) doing those. If you're unsure. Make
another list, and cross off another bunch, and see if you'd be happy with that
list. See what bubbles up.

Iterative development for figuring out what's important to you.

Btw: you're not supposed to have a right or final answer for this. Only
psychotics and morons do. Go after what you think is best now, and plan to
change later. If something sucks, fuck it, try something else.

Take an experimental approach, expect to blow large amounts of
time/money/energy on this -- it's the basis for how you live your life, it's
_important_.

Don't forget to party.

------
swombat
Try this:

[http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/01/how-to-discover-
you...](http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/01/how-to-discover-your-life-
purpose-in-about-20-minutes/)

~~~
Groxx
"Kick ass and chew bubblegum"

* cries __* it's so _true!_

~~~
GeneralMaximus
Turns out I want to be Gandalf. Who knew?

------
KevBurnsJr
A family friend committed suicide on Saturday.

Admittedly I'm not in a position to fully empathize with her plight, but I'm
pretty sure it was a poor solution.

------
thaumaturgy
I've known a lot of people like this -- a lot of them young, and some of them
much older. Some people seem to just have a lot of drive and always too many
ideas about what they want to do, and others don't have much of any at all.
I've never been that way, so I can't really relate.

But, I have seen that nobody else can really seem to tell someone how to live,
or what to do, or how to be motivated. That part is all up to you; I could
say, "go backpacking for a week", because that's what I do to clear my mind
and re-focus, but that's something that works for me and probably would have
no impact on you.

You're looking to everyone around you for some advice that can only come from
within yourself. You're the only person that can decide what you want your
life to look like.

------
lionhearted
When I get into a funk, I travel. It always snaps me out of it.

How much are you spending per month, in what country? Because it's actually
cheaper, including airfare, to live for a couple months in somewhere
inexpensive. You can live an extremely nice in Chiang Mai, Northern Thailand
for between $150 and $500 per month. It's $5 a night for a crummy room, $10
for a pretty nice room, $1 per meal for decent local food, $2 or $3 for higher
end Thai food or Western food. Massage $5 to $10. Fairly cheap to go swimming,
free to visit temples, short taxi ride $1. $20 for the weekly Thai boxing
match if you're into it.

I spent three weeks in Chiang Mai, and think I spent $500 all-in. That's $200
for my room, maybe $10/day for food and tea is another $200 (was having lots
of really nice tea and lots of fruit shakes, the actual meals and snacks
weren't expensive, a bag of roasted peanuts is like 20 cents for instance),
then maybe $100 for a few taxi rides, a boxing match, and a few massages.

Traveling breaks me out of a funk, helps me get a perspective. It's good
because just being in another culture I feel like I'm "doing something" -
learning some of the language and customs, constantly doing math for
conversions on the currency, and so on. It carries pretty well into work and
is good for getting inspiration to do more creative/speculative work that's
not on a deadline or straightforward.

Most inspirational places I've been, not in order - Tokyo, the rest of Kansai,
Taipei, Barcelona, Amsterdam (if you like art or a party scene, and can handle
bad weather), London, New York, San Francisco, the more remote provinces of
China, Chiang Mai in Northern Thailand, Dubai, Toronto, Florence, Southern
France. Some of those are cheaper than others. If I had a gun to my head and
absolutely had to get something creative done in the next 30 days that was
important, I'd head to Barcelona or Taipei I think.

Different places appeal to different people, but hitting the road's frequently
been the answer for me when I've been confused. I usually buy a one way ticket
and just work my way around a part of the world, taking trains and boats
whenever I can instead of flying, eating where local people eat, trying to
stay away from tourist areas, getting into nature or the local art/culture,
making friends, and so on. But the best part of all is you can actually save
money while doing it if you don't mind slumming it, eating cheap, living
somewhere not nice - I'm fairly simple, so I wind up spending less money when
I'm in most places than I would've spent living in New York, Boston, Los
Angeles, or London, which are the main cities I've hung my hat over the last
five years. If you're somewhere a bit expensive, it's pretty cool to save
money by subletting or ending your lease, and then spending a lot less
somewhere else. Feel free to drop an email or post here if you've got
questions - I recommend kayak.com for flights, and hostelworld if you're
looking for cheap accommodation. Get a private room if you can afford it
though, it's bloody miserable when you've got people who are
drunk/sick/coughing/oblivious in a dorm room with you, but hey, I did plenty
of that when I was younger, and you'll still survive...

Edit: I'll also second the recommodations for cleaning up a diet, exercise,
and martial arts, all of which are good. Inspirational books are good too - I
just finished "Open", Andre Aggassi's autobiography, which was pretty
incredible and highly recommend. Easy, very exciting reading.

~~~
portman
_"long-term girlfriend (hopefully soon fiance)"_

Propose, then ask your finace to take a three-month leave of absence from her
job so you both can volunteer in a developing nation.

Use idealist.org or a similar website to find a location and organization that
appeals to both of you. Then spend 3 months helping, learning, and
"resetting".

There are a few reasons why _volunteering_ is like "travel++"

1\. You can take time off from work. It's almost impossible for a
company/manager to deny a request to volunteer overseas. Denying that request
is like saying "No, our widget factory is more important than
{poverty|famine|oppression}" and there is massive social stigma that prevents
that from happening. Both of you will be able to take the time off. Yes, this
is a travel hack.

2\. You need three months in a place to really experience it.

3\. Helping others is one of the oldest, and most universal, ways to produce
happiness. It's like a nuclear power plant for self-fulfillment.

4\. Seeing poverty up-close will annihilate any Westerner's malaise. It's
suddenly very, very hard to get into a funk about your career when you're
watching a family live on $2/day.

Normally I would add the "YMMV" disclaimer, but I think you will find that
this prescription has a 100% success rate. Everyone I know who's spent time
volunteering overseas describes it as a life-altering experience.

~~~
mistermann
"Propose, then ask your fiance..." Judging by the OP's question, and that he
seems to be a bit "out of it" generally speaking, I don't think getting
married at this point in time is the best idea, especially when he's so young.
Marriage is the most important decision you'll make in your life, and speaking
from the man's side of it, you should likely anticipate serious modifications
to the formerly implicit agreements decided upon before marriage....just fair
warning.

~~~
portman
You're right, that was too flippant. I also hope people didn't stop reading at
that point, as what I'm really advocating is the volunteerism.

If I had edit powers remaining, I would remove that line.

------
floodfx
Try living in the present and not stressing out about the future or past... I
recommend you read (or better yet listen to the audio book version) Ekhart
Tolle's "The Power of Now". From the Amazon description: "the author describes
his transition from despair to self-realization soon after his 29th birthday."

~~~
KevBurnsJr
I also highly recommend this book.

You can get it in audio format.

<http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002LYTNR4>

------
ChRoss
I'm also mid 20s, and feel about the same. You should discuss with your
girlfriend, what kind of life you two wanted to live. Plan carefully, and
don't think too much, it will stress you instead.

~~~
asym
This is a huge issue in its own right. She knows exactly what kind of life she
wants to live, I think I know (and is inline with hers) but can't feel sure
about _anything_.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Don't let her tie you down to a life you don't want to live. You can't live
your life for another person.

I almost made this mistake.

Refusing to make this mistake ended the relationship, but it was well worth
it.

------
neodude
@asym - are you in San Francisco? I've gone (and am still going) through some
similar issues. I see you rock climb too, we should hit the gym together
sometime and chat face-to-face.

~~~
asym
I'm not, but I am around SF a few times a year and would love to belay or
spot. I'll contact you off line. I'm usually bouncing between crags in the US
(mostly east coast) so we should keep in touch if anything.

------
csmeder
>"I have lost the ability to tell if and what I want anything from life."

Read Robert A. Johnson's [http://www.amazon.com/Transformation-Understanding-
Levels-Ma...](http://www.amazon.com/Transformation-Understanding-Levels-
Masculine-Consciousness/dp/0062505432/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_10)

From the Amazon.com description: "Using quintessential figures from classical
literature--Don Quixote, Hamlet, and Faust--Robert Johnson shows us three
clearly defined stages of consciousness development. He demonstrates how the
true work of maturity is to grow through these levels to the self-realized
state of completion and harmony.

In Johnson's view, we all reach the stages depicted by Don Quixote, Hamlet,
and Faust at various times of our lives. The three represent levels of
consciousness within us, each vying for dominance. Don Quixote portrays the
innocent child, while Hamlet stands for our self-conscious need to act and
feel in control though we have no real connection to our inner selves. Faust
embodies the master of the true self, who has gained awareness by working
through the stages."

Then read [http://www.amazon.com/New-Earth-Awakening-Purpose-
Selection/...](http://www.amazon.com/New-Earth-Awakening-Purpose-
Selection/dp/0452289963/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1270616065&sr=1-3)

The coolest thing about being at this point in life is that: the greatest
texts human kind has produced actually make sense now. The bad part is that it
can be a lonely place to be: to realize everything everyone else seems to care
about obviously doesn't matter (on the grand scheme of things). Being the only
person you know that sees this can be hard. But if you make it to self
actualization it supposedly is very much worth the negative your feeling now.

------
pgbovine
(apologies in advance if someone else already mentioned this ... i haven't
read any of the replies yet)

i would recommend thinking intensely about ways you can serve others (not just
your girlfriend or immediate family, but strangers in your community and even
beyond). volunteering at local non-profits, hospitals, or other organizations
where you can _directly_ impact people's lives might be able to mitigate this
quarter-life crisis of yours. and by volunteering, i _don't_ mean volunteering
to make a website or install Linux for your local organization ... i mean
doing something _in person_ to directly interact with people in a helpful way.
if you can selflessly give your time and energy to directly helping others
without expecting anything in return, then you might be able to expand your
mental horizons and get 'un-stuck' from this local minimum that your current
mood is on.

------
rs
Remember, you're not alone - it is something like a quarter life crisis, and I
did (still going?) go through it for the past couple of years, and here's what
I did to solve my problem:

1\. Pick up a hobby that can really consumes your focus - I've started doing
some photography (I'm horrible at it, but learning)

2\. Travel - see places and meet people. I know a person who went through
something similar (but in his 30s) and went backpacking for 6 months in
Australia. You might not want to go to that extent, but even a shot break away
from everything does help (I recommend a beach resort, but YMMV)

3\. Reconnect with old friends (college, high school) - always a laugh, but
more importantly, might open up doors (work and non-work related) that might
have been shut a while back.

One thing I've observed is that while most people look fine, some of them are
going through what you're experiencing, but don't really show it. Remember,
you're not alone.

------
buzzzlight
I have always been in a different boat (I'm 32 now). I always knew precisely
what I wanted to do, and knew it would be something nontrivial
and...transcendent I suppose is the word. Life always stops me, whether it's
work, money or relationships. You may have think of the future, how you want
it to be, think of things like solar powered bikes you can ride for free
forever, or computers writing their own programs, or imaginative ways of
meeting other people whose dreams exceed even your own vast expectations, to
find your own path. Maybe those are just things I'm interested in. But I know
that the world as it exists right now at this moment is so profoundly
underwhelming that it can't be the basis of my own enlightenment. Although HN
has sure blown my mind this last year.

------
S_A_P
I pretty much felt lost until my late 20s. I finished college and worked at a
few large companies, doing mostly unrewarding work and not really challenging
myself. By age 30 I felt I was at an impasse, and needed to either apply
myself or drift along from job to job. I think the final tipping point was the
arrival of my first son. The combination of wanting to do better and provide
for my son was a powerful one. I ended up losing 50 pounds, getting back to my
highschool weight, and working on projects that interest me. That was almost 4
years ago, and can say that Im as happy as I have ever been. For me, exercise
and enough sleep are crucial, I can get depressed and demoralized without both
of them. I dont know that this will help you, but it worked for me.

------
chriseidhof
A book that really helped me is Flow by Csikszentmihalyi. You probably can
recall a moment (for example, when programming) where you were in a state of
flow, you were solving difficult problems (but not too difficult) and
everything just went naturally.

His book is about this state, and about how to reach happiness in general. The
key point is not only to depend on happiness as told by external people (e.g.
parents, girlfriend, government, boss) but also create your own triggers. It
might be making music, looking at a sunset, etc. In other words: be in control
of your own happiness.

That being said, I think it's wise to see a professional. Ultimately, you'll
have to do it by yourself, but they can help you get back on track and provide
guidance and pointers. After all, it's their job.

Good luck!

------
_throw1
Same situation as you, also in my mid-20s. Neuroticism seems to go hand-in-
hand with high-IQ, introverted people. Just don't let that potential
instability build-up into extreme actions that you might regret later...and
perpetuate that vicious cycle of self-critique.

------
travisjeffery
First off -- addressing: "Some people say this is what entering adulthood's
like, but everyone around me seems to be perfectly fine." Have you spoken to
others publicly in this same manner that you have privately, behind your
username? Just because people don't talk about it publicly -- like you didn't;
doesn't mean people don't feel the same way.

You didn't give any useful information about what you could do; you must have
some hobbies or activities that you enjoy doing and one of those must be able
to provide you with some money to live off of -- even if it be humbly.

In the end you have to make your decisions on what you know now and if need be
you can always educate yourself to make a more informed decision.

------
Teef
Things I am doing to recover from a failed startup I was working on.

1\. Do something impossible! I rode my bike to work 25 miles in the morning
and 25 miles at night. This was something I thought was impossible, and I only
got to do it a couple times a week but it gave me lots of time to think and
work though my issues. Find your impossible task and do it.

2\. Learn something new. When I teach myself something new it is a very
euphoric experience and after I then want to do something with that new
knowledge.

3\. Lots have been said about gardening and yep it is all true do it now!

4\. Exercise for 30 minutes first thing and your day will start out much
better.

5\. Eat local/healthy food. Good food makes you feel better.

------
dschobel
The best antidote I've found to the hamster wheel of achievement for
achievement's sake is Eastern philosophy.

In particular, Alan Watts has been a revelation for me as he has a really
jocular and irreverent view of life which is a great counter-point for super
analytical types (like those which inhabit HN) who think everything can be
resolved with logic.

Watch this short clip from one of his talks and see if it doesn't strike a
chord.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGoTmNU_5A0>

PS: Figuring this out in your 20's puts you way ahead of the game.

------
nlwhittemore
I think the advice you're getting here is great, but I'd for sure add a big
validation of therapy, and should it be right, medication.

Therapy is one of those things that, if you find the right therapist, sort of
becomes like "why WOULDN'T I have a professional to help with this?" I saw
someone in Chicago on and off for about three years post college to help with
transitions.

I'm an extremely self-reliant person who doesn't ask for help, so it was a
weird thing at first, but it became something I ended up really looking
forward to. It was a place where, each week, I could dump anything and
everything without any pretense, exchange, or fear of judgement. Your friends
and family can and will always be willing to help, but frankly, it can put a
lot of burden on those relationships to have it all on them, and I've found
therapy to be extremely helpful.

I've also seen an extraordinarily high number of people successfully add
medication to their regimen to really help. For some, anti-anxieties that can
be used when needed make a world of difference. For others, SSIRs can really
help with certain transitions. For still others, SSIRs and similar drugs are
just something that become a permanent part of their life - my dad is like
that and the whole family has been reaping the rewards of him "feeling like
himself" again for ten years.

Honestly, it sounds like you are a super high functioning dude, and that's
great. All I'd remind you is that just because you're high functioning and
still able to keep moving, doesn't mean you don't want to leverage the full
slate of available resources.

Always happy to talk about my experiences with therapy/meds. Info in profile.

~~~
ApolloRising
SSIR should read SSRI (Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor). Only adding
this comment to be helpful to anyone that needs to Google it for help.

------
cesart
My mentor, who's a wildly successful and brilliant entrepreneur and about
twice my age said this to me today: your 20s are like Puberty 2.0. We had a
two hour conversation and he's seen the same thing in his nephews and his
students and former students (he was a b-school prof for a while before
retiring).

My biggest problem seems trying to find what excites and motivates me and not
feeling apathetic about all this web shit. I'm workin' on it.

------
gsk
A friend of mine who may identify with your situation recently quit his job
and has gone to volunteer full-time to help recreate a forest in the
Pondicherry, India (Sadhana forest). Cliché but absolutely true: The world is
a big and exciting place. Look out to immerse yourself in something completely
new. Don't worry too much about the choices. Pick the first sensible choice
(use stochastic efficiency).

------
scottallison
Difficult to add anything to the superb advice already given but I want to
endorse:

\- overseas travel (go to a completely different culture than your own) \-
exercise (even just going for a walk round the local park while listening to
some music) \- de-clutter (this is really, really beneficial - I've just moved
house and the feeling of throwing out years of accumulated crap was fantastic)
\- socialise with some new people

Finally, be wary of books and seminars, etc - sometimes I find if someone is
so completely off the scale in terms of achievement rather than motivating me
it has the opposite effect. Don't be afraid to stop reading/leave an event if
you find you're not getting energised by it.

A good book that's easy to read is The Magic Of Thinking Big. Nice, simple
advice and a good pick-me-up. It's full of common sense and useful steps you
can take to get re-energised.

Finally, I just want to echo what others have said: there's no rush; don't
pressure yourself. There's a great quote on PG's website... "Your twenties are
always an apprenticeship, but you don’t always know what for."

Good luck.

------
confoocious
I can totally relate to what you're saying.

My story: I found some professional success (atleast monetarily so) early and
in parallel through college-life. I thought there wouldn't be much to the
transition to pursue a bigger goal post-academics.

Seems like I was totally wrong. Ever since, I've been facing a huge
motivational crisis, total mismanagement of time, Unkept promises in my
professional as well as personal circles and most of all, to myself.

Currently, I still stand potential with whatever I thought was my biggest
chance to make it big in life professionally. However, the only thing that can
seem to provide me any kind of respite / mental peace is slacking off on
junkie travel-getaways.

Personal-life has hit new lows. Complicated-relationships turned irredeemable.
Finally, there seems to be a self-imposed lethargia to any kind of social life
(when not travelling); Life, monotonously so has boiled down to some work -- 8
hours a day, and IRC (with other minor randomities) the rest of the time.

------
awongh
This is a bit of a tangent to your question, but I've been thinking about this
a bit too. I've been depressed lately as well, and this ted talk [
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgRlrBl-7Yg> ] was really interesting. It has
nothing to do with being more happy, but has to do with how we define
happiness and how we experience it... (being over-analytical and also unhappy,
I thought it was quite good)

It basically says that the concept happiness as we think of it is really two
things, the "experiential self", which is happy when we're snowboarding or
whatever, and the remembering self, which is happy when we're deploying some
code that's going to take over the world or whatnot.

It seems to me, from observation, that unless you are the rare .01 percent who
really, really, gets paid well to do the things you want, (I'm not counting
Tim Ferris types- that's just a hack) that life is a dissapointment, and at
some point you just get over it and live your life and try not to stress out
too much about your remembering self, and try to pay some attention to your
experiential self. Or, that is to say, that at a certain point, people stop
worrying so much about their remembering self's expectations of their future
memories... err, that is to say that it's not that you want to be happy, it's
that you have an expectation to be satisfied at a later time with your choices
and actions. And then at some point you have to change those expectations.

This may sound like pyscho-babble at this point, but it really gets to
something I've been thinking a lot about lately, namely "am I happy?". Should
the question be... "am I satisfied with my life?" or... "am I having fun?"...
well, this concept of the two selves really helps defines what you mean when
you talk about happy.

Of course, completely satisfying one self or another isn't a solution, but
generally I feel enlightened for having been exposed to this concept.

------
stretchwithme
Maintain commitments to others that place demands upon you on a regular basis.

One strives to simplify, to avoid conflict and to eliminate dependencies and
if successful, we can create a bubble we live in where we don't have to do
anything or satisfy anyone but ourselves.

But we are not wired to live that way!

Just as a muscle shrinks and weakens without demands, our brains shrivel up
too!

------
foleyfoley
I'm currently going through the same thing, its not over but I've realized a
couple things

My philosophy is start to do something, if it something you realize is not for
you, you cross it off and do the next thing on your list. It doesn't matter
what you do as long as you are doing something. For me this has narrowed down
and grounded my interests, and has given me an idea of what to do with myself.
This idea will obviously change with time, but for right now it is a start.

Or when I feel like I cant think, or am not in control of the way my life is
heading. I stop, and simplify my life. whether this is a day to lay in the
park and read or just look at the sky. Or something more drastic. It is
backing up from your own life and editing it to whatever degree you want. For
me it was really empowering to be in a place of my constructing after I threw
away all the metaphorical clutter. It let me breathe and start again.

------
ithayer
I struggled with a something very similar (complete inability to work, not
knowing what makes me happy), a few things I learned seem relevant: 1) Don't
assume what other people are thinking or feeling (about anything, but in this
case, many other people do go through similar things) 2) Happiness and
fulfillment has a lot to do with expectations (intrinsic as well as external).
Understand what those are and where they come from. 3) Talk to people, read,
and if that's not enough, get help (seems like you're doing that). You'll
probably learn something about yourself.

I can recommend "The Feeling Good Handbook" by David Burns (Stanford), which
is about cognitive therapy [also described in other places]. It may not be
exactly accurate for your situation, and those types of books may sound silly
(I thought so before reading it), but I've found some of the techniques
useful.

------
grilo
I hope this article can help you.

[http://artofmanliness.com/2010/04/06/modern-maturity-
create-...](http://artofmanliness.com/2010/04/06/modern-maturity-create-more-
consume-
less/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheArtOfManliness+\(The+Art+of+Manliness\))

~~~
endgame
There's some interesting stuff on that site, thanks for the link. I read their
bedmaking article last night and put it into practise this morning. My bed has
never looked better.

------
neilk
As for your concern that other people "seem fine"; how many people in your
life know how badly you're hurting? I bet you're doing a good job of keeping
up appearances. Well, so are a lot of other people. So, of your worries, you
can eliminate the one where you're worried that you're alone or self-indulgent
or otherwise unusual.

I wish I had some concrete advice for you. A psychologist may be able to help,
but don't fall into the trap of focusing too much on how you _feel_. You have
to also focus on who you _are_. At the very least, it sounds like you don't
quite know yourself.

I am interested by the fact that you have a block about trying new things,
when it's the one thing you should be doing to figure out where your talents
should be applied. Perhaps you should talk that over with a psychologist.

------
missizii
I second (or third) the recommendations of seeing a psychologist and upping
your level of physical activity. Try to find a psychologist who isn't a pill-
pusher. I also recommend the books "Feeling Good" by David Burns and "The
Highly Sensitive Person" by Elaine Aron. One thing that helps me figure out if
I'm ok with where I am and what I have is imagining that I'll lose it tomorrow
(not in a bad way). If I'm tired of where I live, I imagine I'm moving
tomorrow, if I'm unsure about my job, I imagine it's my last day here. It
helps me appreciate the good things about my situation. However, I'm
definitely one of those people who doesn't appreciate what they have until
it's gone.

------
bballant
There are a lot of good suggestions here.

Reading religion and philosophy definitely helps. A good way to get into that
is to find a writer you like (can be anyone) then find out who their
influences were. I've enjoyed reading Joseph Campbell and Alan Watts.

Exercise is a great thing as well. It's surprising to me how extremely
positive a force daily exercise is in my life.

Writing, therapy... all really good things to consider. You have to find
what's right for you. That's a hard thing to do when you're in a slump.

You need a challenge or, even better, a challenging journey. Have you traveled
seriously or lived in another country? If not, do it. Go with your fiance,
spend at least a year in a foreign place.

Good luck.

~~~
peregrine
Can you suggest some good reading? Watts has a ton of stuff out there..

~~~
Estragon
Watts is fun, but not very practical or informative. The anti-intellectual
tendency of Zen makes it relatively difficult as field of self-study. All
schools of Buddhism necessarily rely on teacher feedback, but the dependence
in Zen is particularly acute.

The book I learned from is _Wake Up To Your Life_ , by Ken McLeod.
_Mindfulness in Plain English_ is also excellent, and available for free
online.

------
blizkreeg
I'm almost 30 now and my 25 yr old self went through this, word for word. If I
had to go back and give one piece of advice to that boy, it would be - Relax a
little and don't be too harsh on yourself, especially with those expectations.
There is _no_ rush. You have much time ahead of you.

Quarter-life crisis is more common than you think. While the reasons do not
matter much, in my view, high expectations (not bad) and impatience are the
culprits. Life is a long journey and learning to navigate the ups and downs is
a skill learned only through experience.

In many ways, this is what entering adulthood really is about :) You no longer
have the structure of school, and as you said yourself, the highs and novelty
of grad school, your first job have started to wear off. It happened to me
too. You are lucky to have a girlfriend who has known you for long. Don't let
this feeling affect a precious relationship, first and foremost. If you have a
right-brained friend, a guy, who has known you for a while, talk to him. Male
camaraderie & bonding is something different altogether.

I hate giving you a list of "things-to-try" but this is what I've learned -
"changing things up" is one of the most effective ways of pulling yourself out
of this. Your mind needs fresh fuel. It needs to see and experience new
things. It is a feedback loop. Your mind will automatically give back to you
great motivation, new ideas, and happiness if you feed it with something new.
Soon after I turned 26, I backpacked by myself for a bit around Europe. It was
one of the most defining and amazing experiences of my life. Take your
girlfriend along and go travel a bit if that seems possible. My travel
energized me so much that soon after I returned, a new venture idea dawned on
me and gave me a strong purpose.

It is difficult to find meaning and purpose in modern life. Expectations are
high, and we see media-fueled stories of 20-something millionaires all the
time. That's a rarity.

Most importantly, let life unfold. Life is long (no matter what you hear
otherwise). It is a journey. Embrace the uncertainty of what is yet to come.
If you stay on your feet, let yourself gravitate towards new experiences, and
let them permeate you, the flow will be smoother. Remember that there is no
rush. There is no deadline to get to a certain place. There should be no
I-must or I-have-tos, especially in this phase. You don't absolutely _have to_
find a strong meaning and purpose to everything just yet. It will come. The
20s are some of the most wonderful years of our lives. Take a few risks, have
new experiences, form some amazing memories.

You seem like a fairly cheery guy prior to feeling like this. I see what you
are feeling as more of a transient phase in the journey of life. It happens to
all of us. Everyone. I speak from experience, too. And believe me, when this
phase passes, you will have been glad you went through it. It will define the
man you become. It will be good =)

Good luck!

------
samratjp
What you need is a Pensieve (like the one from Harry Potter where the
characters can take out their memories to analyze). OK, Just Kidding!

But, do go for a walk by a quiet lake or body of water. Take a notebook with
you. Spill your thoughts on the paper and don't actively think about it. It's
hard to look at oneself "passively" and this helps immensely. There is no
shortcut here. Keep doing this everyday, you will find that negation helps.
This is the closest you will get to a pensieve :-)

This may help: <http://www.selvesandothers.org/article16383.html>

------
blender
You have what Sally Hogshead calls "Tourist Indecision": Anxiety resulting
from a sense of being lost or proceeding without clear direction.

Basically indecision causes stress.

Ever taken a Myers-Briggs personality test? I'm a big believer in it.

Check out "What's Your Type of Career?":

[http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Your-Type-Career-
Personality/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Your-Type-Career-
Personality/dp/0891061541/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1270611242&sr=8-1)

Reading that book was a real eye opener for me. It was like someone was
reading my thoughts. This book will help you determine what kind of
environment you thrive in.

Cheers

------
blizkreeg
>> Some people say this is what entering adulthood's like, but everyone around
me seems to be perfectly fine.

Your foray into adulthood does not have to be like everyone else's and around
the same time. Some of your friends may mature and go through this later in
life. Some will face a stronger mid-life crisis, having never gone through
something like this.

Here's the transition all males have to make, at one point or another in their
life. Boy => Guy => Man.

What you feel now will certainly pass, and you will be all the more stronger,
and a man with purpose because of these (20s) formative experiences.

------
edeion
I see this thread draw many clever and dynamic people. I'm afraid I can't help
in any way since many have already given clever, inspired, positive advice.

Anyway. I'm 28 and I have been struggling almost forever to find something
captivating. In recent years, solving useless problems helped
(<http://www.caesum.com/game/index.php> in case you'd like it) but oddly
enough I don't manage to play this more than one week a year. Generally
speaking, I try to get interested in some things but I soon feel indifferent
to it. (I guess I'm just describing a depression symptom.) Anyway this doesn't
make a living.

I've read people around here (including PG) writing they were poor employees
and it reassured for some weeks since I really am a pitiful one (to say the
least). But since then I came to realize that comparing myself to this kind of
people was outrageously pretentious. I may not be stupid but I can no longer
do anything. I have long liked to blame school and parents for this since it
was not the same in my early childhood. But blaming does not help.

The most awful thing I sometimes come to think is exactly what people
suggested to you: it's what adulthood is like, you are through some age
crisis. If that's how life is, I should have hanged long ago. (But that's not
good karma. etc. -- Nicely put.)

I guess, like others suggested, a key point is finding something valuable to
do. Anything you feel rewarding. Especially if it may have measurable success,
I would say. Helping others is good provided either these people do not
overlook your efforts or you are confident enough to value your efforts by
yourself. Actually, do anything you can achieve now with the energy you have
in store. I can testify that the more you wait the less energy you have. (But
this doesn't prevent me from still waiting.)

The best would be to find a field in which your efforts can add up. Founding a
startup may be captivating and hence a therapy. But how could people like me
(I wouldn't ) show the needed strength? My last effort to be on topic
shamefully fails. Anyway, I took for granted that your problem comes from your
job which is far from being clear.

Sorry for the English (or for telling nonsense (which is almost the same in my
case)).

------
gcheong
One book that I have gotten help from recently is "The Happiness Trap" by Dr.
Russ Harris. (www.thehappinesstrap.com). It is a basic introduction to a
recent form of cognitive behavioral therapy based on mindfulness called
Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. The main difference between this and
regular cognitive behavioral therapy is the idea that instead of trying to
change your thoughts, you change the way that you engage with them and by
doing that you can get away from the constant struggle with them.

------
3dFlatLander
You may joke about the phrase 'quarter life crisis', but that's what it feels
like for me as well. I've found some peace of mind from letting things evolve
over time instead of putting my all into a project/goal/relationship/whatever
and then becoming frustrated when it doesn't succeed when and how I want it
to. Eating well, exercising, and meditating also helped me feel more positive.

I hope you get back into the groove soon. Just stick at it, and eventually
you'll get there. Hopefully we all will. :)

------
xenophanes
> Some people say this is what entering adulthood's like, but everyone around
> me seems to be perfectly fine.

Are you broadcasting not being fine to anyone but your closest friends? No?
Then it means nothing that they aren't either.

Anyway, learn philosophy. You're asking philosophical questions. Most
philosophy is bad and makes no sense. However, good philosophy is very useful.
See Karl Popper. And you might try www.fallibleideas.com

------
groaner
Are you me? I was actually going to post this question myself sometime this
week! For the moment, let's say that you've just contributed something
valuable to the community that I really wanted to see. I'm still reading
through the responses, but I want to take this opportunity to thank you for
this right now.

It takes guts to take the first step and seek help. I'm still trying to muster
up the courage myself.

------
spaceman77
I am 46 and had something similar happen twice in my life and it usually
preceded a huge change, for the better.

tricky waters to negotiate they are (yoda)

------
stener
I am more attentive. You can start to hear bird singing, smell the wood or see
the night sky. The difference is in the details; you can be astonished by the
nature, explore it and so appreciate own life. And good diet is amazing.

Lately I climbed the tree, watched the sky and hills from the top, washed in
the cold mountain brook. And I was grateful for every minute of my time.

------
herdrick
Sounds like a pretty typical case of depression. Take it seriously, it's not
just "feeling down" or something, it's a serious problem. Luckily it's
treatable with meds.

However, I'd try some of the other ideas seen here first. Especially intense
exercise. That's a powerful antidepressent.

Good luck my fellow HNer!

------
nfnaaron
"Or if I do know exactly where I want to live, I'm always terrified that I'll
regret the move later."

I was almost literally born moving. Dad was in the Army with orders, and they
let him/us stay where we were until I was born, then two weeks and go. I moved
with my parents a lot in the Western US and Hawaii. The I joined the Navy, saw
the world from Virginia to Hawaii to Kenya, and moved duty stations with my
first wife a lot in the process.

I did all that by the time I was 24, lived in Seattle 15 years then moved to
Denver, where I've been another 15 years. I'm in my early 50s now. Besides the
moving, I've lived what I think of as four fairly different lives, different
friends, jobs, interests, relationships.

I say all that partly to acknowledge that I look at moving and changing
differently than a lot of people. It's not a big deal to me, and I usually
look forward to it. It's difficult for me to understand what it's like to live
in one place most of one's life, so my perspective is probably different than
yours.

All that said, when I look back at how much I've moved and settled
comfortably, I think at your age you have more than enough time to move
somewhere, decide you don't like it, and move again. And maybe again. Moving
at all is something of an existence proof: if it doesn't work out, _you can do
it again_. Nothing needs to be permanent. If you want permanence, it's OK if
you don't get it the first time out.

I have liked and profited from everywhere I've lived, everyone I've known and
everyone I've been. Most types of change are a gift. No choices have to be
100% correct, which is good because they won't be.

"I have no idea where I want to live, no idea what I want to be doing, no idea
where I want to be doing it and no idea what will actually make me happy."

Suggestions, tailor as needed. Try stuff. Treat your career as necessary but
secondary for awhile, as something to support everything else. Focus on fun
things outside of work. Outlandish things. Go skydiving. Go skydiving in a
foreign country. Go skydiving naked. (I can enthusiastically recommend all of
the last three.)

Get yourself into really, really good shape if you aren't already. Become a
gym rat. (I recommend Crossfit, sometimes discussed here, but anything that
isn't 24 Hour Fitness/Big Box will do.)

Learn to fly, models or full sized. Get really good at Bridge. Get good enough
at Poker to make a living at it. Form a startup around Poker or Bridge or
flying or naked skydiving.

Travel as much as possible, short and long trips, with and without your
girlfriend.

Learn a foreign language, and go live and work where they speak it. Immerse
yourself in your favorite instrument. Take up a martial art.

Try stuff, lots of stuff. Be like that guy in that Jim Carrey movie and say
yes to (almost) everything.

Open up to the world, and let the world show you what interests you.

Or as my aunt says, rise up, go forth and fake it. You don't have to know that
whatever you try next is going to be "it," you just have to try it.

When you get to the other end you'll have a lot of cool pictures and stories.

------
projectileboy
It's hard to be happy if you haven't defined happiness for yourself. I once
took the time to explicitly write out my values and their relative priorities,
and now every time I think about major decisions in my life I have a
meaningful frame of reference.

------
holdenc
This happens to me sometimes, and my personal solution is: 1) Sit in a
comfortable chair 2) Put on a nice pair of Bose headphones 3) Blast Kanye
West. If that doesn't work, blast Glenn Gould. (Music and art are the cure for
a bleak world.)

------
bpourriahi
It took me a very long time to realize this:

-Confidence is the defining quality in success.

Be confident at any cost. This will help you focus on what you want most right
now in this moment, and moving towards what you want will lift your
depression.

------
Tichy
I think often the only way to figure out if you want something is to try it.
Traveling seems like a good idea, or other things to get some exposure. Do you
want the same things as your stb fiancee?

------
fdschoeneman
Whatever you do, do something different. Join the Army. Move to Thailand. Dump
your girlfriend, if you have to.

Good luck.

------
vicutoru
im in the same fucking situation dude, and i have no fucking clue what the
fuck to do.

------
lotharbot
A lot of people have posted good advice about motivation. Rather than
duplicate that, let me give some alternate/additional thoughts:

1) Pay attention to your diet. Make sure you're getting enough water, and make
sure you eat enough veggies and get enough protein and calories overall.
Screwed up body chemistry can make you feel unmotivated and disconnected.
Carry a water bottle (I've got a nice quart-sized stainless steel bottle) and
make sure you drink several full bottles a day.

2) Pay attention to your sleep schedule, as well as your sleep quality.
Getting not-quite-enough sleep of not-quite-good-enough quality can leave you
just a bit lethargic, or over time build up to major apathy.

3) Get a physical as well as a psych evaluation. Don't settle for one or the
other. There are lots of little conditions that can drag you down and leave
you with vague emotional weirdnesses. If the docs find something awry, get it
treated, and don't be afraid to go back and ask for changes if the treatment
doesn't work; sometimes certain meds just don't work right for certain people.

4) Keep exercising. Sounds like you do some rock climbing; don't give it up
without replacing it with something else challenging.

OK, so with all that physical stuff in mind -- getting your body right so it's
not a drag on your brain -- you might still have a problem. In large part,
"this is what entering adulthood's like", but there are still some things you
can do to smooth the transition:

A) Have a good, long, serious heart-to-heart with your significant other. Be
totally honest with yourself and her. You might find some lingering resentment
over something you had written off as insignificant, and that can affect your
overall mood.

B) Remember that the decisions you make now aren't necessarily permanent. You
can change jobs or careers; you can load up the moving truck and head
elsewhere; you can start or end various extracurriculars (others have
suggested gardening, martial arts, etc.) Don't be afraid to just try something
and revisit it a year down the road (and set yourself up for it -- rent, don't
buy, or as lionhearted suggested, travel somewhere cheap and spend a couple
months there.)

C) Pay attention to the things that make you happy. Elsewhere on HN I saw a
suggestion to make happyfile.txt on your computer and write down things that
make you happy each day. My sister carries a paper notebook and does the same.
Remember, anything that makes you happy goes in the Happy Book -- something a
friend says, time spent writing or reading, minor or major accomplishments,
religious pursuits, tasty meals, enjoyable HN posts. The mere act of writing
the things down means you think more about them, and over time you may notice
patterns and find you really want to make some specific change in your life.

For the record, I was 28 and had a pregnant wife when I finally realized the
thing I wanted to do most was to be a stay-at-home dad. I didn't keep a "happy
book", but I did pay attention to the amount of joy I derived from working
with kids and thinking about family.

~~~
abas
Along with the advice about diet and a physical, you might consider taking a
multi-vitamin and talk to your doctor about your energy/motivation when you
get your physical.

I used to be puzzled as to why people would take vitamins in general, thinking
that if you need vitamins, you should adjust your diet. I still think that
more or less, but started taking vitamin B when I had some nerve issues and
noticed my energy, mood and motivation was for sustained periods of time
better than it had been probably since I hit puberty. I later went to the
naturopath for other health issues and blood work showed I was borderline
hypothyroid and had very low vitamin D levels. I have been taking supplements
for both of those (stopped taking vitamin B awhile back because it started
affecting my sleep for some reason) and they have also helped with my mood and
motivation.

------
known
You'll be happy if you plan your career so that you can retire by 40.

------
cominatchu
I highly recommend The Art of Happiness by Cutler.

------
ddemchuk
I am in the same boat, have been for about two years now. The thing that has
worked briefly for me but I haven't been able to stick you yet (I plan on
doing it, eventually) is to tire yourself out every day.

You sound like me, where we think too much, never finish projects because of
new ideas, and am always falling short. You're trapped in your own head. You
need to go exhaust yourself every day, physically. Go run, not just a jog, go
fucking sprint until you're barely able to breath. Lift weights as hard as you
can. Run some stairs. Get tired.

Also, do those things outside. Go sweat everyday. Just sit in the sun if you
have to. Remind yourself that there's an actual world behind your monitor.

I sleep terribly, night terrors a lot, wake up screaming, scare the hell out
of my girlfriend, bad news stuff. When I exercise hard during the day though,
I sleep like a baby. Just food for thought.

Keep a journal, write down all new ideas, and put them away. Review it every
few days, and only then decide if it's really something you want to pursue.

Try blogging. I just started again, it feels good to have readers, to think
about how to teach people what I know, to PARTICIPATE in the world and give
back, even if it's techie niche stuff.

In regards to psychologists, I haven't decided if they help me or not yet. I
found myself in a situation one day where I realised that my therapist worked
off of and knew only what I decided to tell her. I had complete control over
the situation. That can be a dangerous realisation; I haven't been back.

I'm broke, if I wasn't, I'd go travel. To somewhere very remote. And just sit
outside. Probably Ireland or Switzerland. Just sit on a grassy hill and look
at nothing in particular until I knew what I wanted.

Until then, just go run your ass off and get tired. You'll sleep a lot better.
Your body will thank you too.

------
pw0ncakes
Entering adulthood is difficult because even though the challenges are
(usually) much milder, the stakes are much higher. If you get a C on your
final, it doesn't matter much. If you get passed over for a promotion, it's
the first sign that you need to be looking for another job.

My experience is that the happiness range of college is 4-8, with a peak
around 7, and that of adulthood is 2-9, with a peak around 4.5. The range is
much wider and the peak of the curve is lower, but there's much more potential
upside. In college, the star performers have as good a life as the average
students. The "real world" has the potential to be really amazing, but for the
median player, it's pretty shitty. The fact that even the most talented
25-year-olds live in fear of being in the latter category creates a lot of
anxiety, and it can be overwhelming.

Some advice: Definitely see the therapist, assuming you can afford it, and
make sure that you're taking care of basic needs (exercise, nutrition, sex).

You said: _Or if I do know exactly where I want to live, I'm always terrified
that I'll regret the move later._

Remember that you can always move back. No one's expecting you to buy a house.
People who leave New York come back, and people who come to New York from
Chicago, Minneapolis often go back. As scary as "starting over" socially is,
it's a smaller cost than the upside of living in the right place for you.
Besides, you probably only have 3 to 6 real friends in your city at this
point, and those you'll keep regardless of your move. (New York may be a
special case; it's easier and cheaper to live elsewhere and visit 2 weeks each
year, which a lot of people do, than to live here, because of the massively
overpriced housing).

------
c00p3r
<http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Intelligence-Daniel-Goleman/>

------
locopati
Step away if you can - take a trip, do something unrelated to anything you
usually do - give yourself some space to clear your head and maybe you'll see
what it is you really want.

------
hernan7
It may be depression; it may be a brain tumor... seriously, consult with your
physician ASAP.

------
3eye
Try Ayahuasca. Its legal 100%, you can get components on ebay.com. Motivation
guaranteed.

Watch The Blueprint by Real Social Dynamics - how to get girls.

Listen to some good trance music: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkITM2UIYoU>

Read Tim Ferris book "Four Hour Work Week"

~~~
natrius
WARNING: According to the Wikipedia article, this concoction contains
monoamine oxidase inhibitors. Pretty much every commercial I've seen for an
antidepressant says to be talk to your doctor if you're on any MAO inhibitors.
Don't mess with this stuff if you're taking an antidepressant without doing
further research.

~~~
Alex3917
Despite the fact that the parent comment is getting downvoted into oblivion,
it's not completely off base. Dennis McKenna did some preliminary research
which suggested that when done in a religious setting, long-term use of low-
dosage ayahuasca may increase the density of serotonin receptors. And
anecdotally there are stories about former meth addicts going down to South
America and coming back all serene and mellow.

Now it's definitely not the best option, or even one of the top twenty best
options, but I think there's enough there that it makes sense to keep it in
the toolkit for future consideration. (But obviously don't go out and try it
yourself without doing the research and without proper psychological/medical
supervision, that's just a recipe for inducing permanent psychosis.)

~~~
KevBurnsJr
> there are stories about former meth addicts going down to South America and
> coming back all serene and mellow.

I've met at least a dozen. Coke, meth, pills, booze, herb, cutting, you name
it.

