

Sexism in the tech industry - it's not just the guys - Typespace
http://typespace.co/13-Sexism-in-the-tech-industry---It--39-s-not-just-the-guys

======
parfe
"What About The Men!" cries a man who takes insult at the idea of a space he
isn't welcome. An exception to the rules of society!

And his point about all-woman hackathons is kinda refuted by his own banner
image. A room full of men with three women. People don't like feeling exposed
and isolated. Just maybe if events weren't a super-majority of young white
males then minority groups wouldn't need to create a safe space for themselves
to not feel like outsiders.

To that the brave Male Rights Warrior says "Well people are just people! They
should just get over it and fit in." Well they are getting over it, by hosting
their own events where they feel comfortable. You just aren't explicitly
invited.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
I think it is less about taking insult at the idea of a space he's not welcome
and more about taking insult at hypocrisy that seems to be around the "It is
bad when YOU do it. But not when we do it" type of stuff. The equality that is
being sought is not really a true equality. That's my 2 cents.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
But that's not really true. If equality is achieved, there's no need for such
"safe space" events and they'll likely disappear. But at the moment we are far
from equality, so there is a need for it.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
So until this all gets sorted out, you'd be fine if an all-male event was put
on so men could feel safe from being publicly shamed by an overreaction to
overheard comment? Everyone has an equal right to feel safe, right?

~~~
alxjrvs
Yes, they do. It's just that Men have no reason to feel unsafe, because they
are in the majority, Indeed, the large majority of coding events, seminars,
lectures, terminology, etc - are geared towards men. This is the same argument
as someone loudly asking "Why isn't there a White Entertainment Television
channel?"

There is. It is every other channel on TV, where the default assumption of an
audience member is a white (and typically male) human in their 30's. We have
no reason to feel unsafe.

~~~
manicdee
"Men have no reason to feel unsafe, because they are in the majority"

Prey animals don't share your optimism. They live lives of eternal vigilance.
To a gazelle, the price of failure in vigilance is death.

In a world where it is increasingly becoming more dangerous to step out of
line. Racist, sexist or otherwise offensive jokes will cost you your job,
regardless of how "safe" you thought the joke was: it only takes someone to
interpret the joke as offensive and report it to an authority, and you end up
out of a job.

The person taking offense is the lion. The person unwittingly causing offense
is the gazelle who let down their guard for five seconds.

Men have every reason to feel unsafe: because they are in the majority (in
certain environments) it is easier to assume that a particular joke will be
acceptable to any gathering. The more people are in hearing range of that
joke, the more likely it is that someone will regard it as offensive and take
disciplinary action.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance and continual self censorship.

------
gcv
This Lulu thing _is_ fairly controversial, judging by App Store reviews. A
previous attempt to do this moved away from posting reviews of men:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DontDateHimGirl.com>

~~~
kyllo
Not to mention their possible trademark infringement, as there's already a
book self-publishing company with the same name: <http://www.lulu.com/>

------
roc
The problem with this line of argument is that while technically correct, it
completely lacks the context that underpins the entire _problem_ of
discrimination against women.

Men discriminating against women is a problem because of the _effects_. The
lesser rights. The lower pay. Being passed over for advancement. The
dismissive treatment. etc.

Until men are being systematically disadvantaged by the discrimination they
receive from women, trying to equate our hypothetical hurt feelings at being
excluded from the tiny minority of women-only events, to their very real
career barriers is just adding insult to injury.

------
jstanley
For anyone else who hasn't heard of it, this is Lulu: <http://www.onlulu.com/>

------
jack-r-abbit
It is a double standard for sure. But we are not allowed to talk about that
right now. We're busy trying to solve the problems that women are having.
We'll get to our man problems after. :/

------
anon987
I'm surprised this "men's rights" trash made it to the front page.

~~~
zemo
this isn't at all about defending men's rights to have a site like lulu, it's
about saying lulu is bullshit and we should call a spade a spade. It's not
saying that sexism is OK or defending sexism against women, what it's saying
is that yes there is a legitimate problem, but behavior that is diametrically
opposite of anti-female sexist behavior is a faulty solution. E.g., those
"all-female" hackathons are clearly bullshit, but things like Hack and Jill
(fixed at 50% female, 50% male) are very cool.

------
olgeni
Author: please remember that race and gender are just social constructs. I
usually refactor myself into a Straight White Male when going to conferences,
just to get along.

So far so good, but one day at the zoo I got distracted and turned into a
panda by sheer willpower. After that it took a while to wean off bamboo
leaves.

If you see anybody gnawing on a bamboo stick at PyCon, please _do not_ post
any pictures on Twitter. Thanks.

------
sp332
Mz pointed out one reason you might want a women-only event.

 _a good reason to have some "ladies only" groups is because of the way a lot
of women behave around men, not because of the way men behave around women or
because "men are all sexist pigs"._
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5272532>

------
jellicle
Yeah! White men have been getting the short end of the stick for too long!
Preach it, brother!

We need male-only events!

<http://swiftstack.com/images/posts/pycon-paul-graham.png>

------
Millennium
Prepare for a deluge of "it's not wrong when WE do it."

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
The concept of a "safe space" isn't discriminatory, it is a reaction to
discrimination.

~~~
Millennium
The fact that it's a reaction to discrimination is irrelevant. It's the same
act, just with a different target, and changing the target does not change any
reasonable value judgment that can be made about the act itself.

------
sbhere
The simple fact that the author posted anonymously demonstrates two things: 1.
Whomever wrote it isn't proud enough to put a name to it. 2. It's a problem
enough to warrant anonymity.

~~~
omonra
I see another simple fact - the author does not feel comfortable posting his
views under his name because he fears retaliation.

And that's a problem.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
And why shouldn't he fear retaliation? The suggestion that women having safe-
space events is sexist is outrageous.

~~~
omonra
I don't know if you are serious or are being sarcastic.

Assuming the former (rather sad state of affairs), this short interview with
Steven Pinker should explain why a society where people fear retaliation for
voicing 'outrageous' views is fucked:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0W9sSqeJnA>

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Actually, nevermind. Sure, they shouldn't fear retaliation, I'm not quite sure
what I was going for.

~~~
omonra
Cool :)

------
yarrel
"Is that all you've got?"

