
Ask HN: How friendly is Berlin for startups? - betimd
How are procedures to open a startup in Berlin &#x2F; Germany? What about taxes? Is it generally a startup friendly environment?
======
WordSkill
The complexity of German taxes and all the other red tape seems to be the main
reason why people change their mind about starting up in Berlin but,
personally, it was the rudeness that wore me down.

Berliners can be very nice in certain situations, such as the people you work
with, but they have a hostile service culture. Not every time, or in every
service situation, but you will have enough bad experiences in shops,
restaurants and trains to find it annoying, especially if you are accustomed
to the more positive service culture in the US, UK and Ireland.

The other problem is that many Berliners regard young foreign workers as being
the reason why rents are increasing and this became a political issue a few
years ago. I'm not sure what the current situation is but, at that time, you
would see graffiti around town, letting you know that you were not welcome,
and you would frequently hear the same sentiment expressed in social
situations. Ironically, the people who were quickest to let you know that the
foreign tech workers were not welcome were the same "anti-fascist" trendies
who call everyone else racist.

This hostility wasn't something I experienced when living in other German
cities, it seems to be a Berlin-specific phenomenon.

~~~
shostack
>"Not every time, or in every service situation, but you will have enough bad
experiences in shops, restaurants and trains to find it annoying, especially
if you are accustomed to the more positive service culture in the US, UK and
Ireland."

Can you elaborate on this? Is there an underlying reason for it? Lack of
demand for better service from consumers that might cause companies to compete
on service? Is there an opportunity to differentiate on service over there?

~~~
sedachv
Many European cultures consider the inauthentic cheerfulness that is expected
as part of emotional labor in Anglophone societies distasteful (I have been
living in North America for many years, and still find it distasteful), and
workers in those cultures rightly recognize these demands for emotional labor
as being harmful to their mental health (see for example Hochschild's seminal
The Managed Heart: Commercialization of Human Feeling).

~~~
Turing_Machine
What makes you think that the cheerfulness is "inauthentic"?

Some people actually do genuinely like other people and enjoy helping them.

That you find it "inauthentic" may say more about you than it does about the
service workers you're encountering.

~~~
stevekemp
Enter a Disney shop, in many parts of the world and somebody will say "Hello,
how are you?" Leave the shop and that same greeter will say "Have a great
day!"

That always feels incredibly forced, and very very fake.

But what do I know, I'm British ..!

~~~
Turing_Machine
Disney stores are...ummm... not a representative sample. :-)

~~~
stevekemp
Very much so, but its a good example of fakeness/insincerity that matches the
topic.

~~~
Turing_Machine
Maybe in the sense that Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany would be a good example
of "European politics".

The OP was making a general observation about the United States as a whole.
Picking an extreme example like Disney is a Hasty Generalization fallacy.

[https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFalla...](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/100/Hasty-
Generalization)

~~~
stevekemp
I was trying to suggest that those stores, here in Europe, have greeters and
those greeters are the very epitome of fakeness - which the parent was
referring to.

I suspect the confusion comes because people assumed I meant Disney stores in
the states.

------
kinnth
I lived in Berlin for 3 years, but I didn't found or form a company. I do have
a friend who has just done it. I wouldn't want to comment on the specifics but
the basics are this.

1\. Very easy to form a company in Germany as a foreigner 2\. You will need a
native german speaker, it's beauracratic and you need to speak solid German to
deal with it. 3\. Taxes are higher than the US, but they are fair. You pay
more as you earn more. 4\. There are many taxes as an individual you can claim
back, such as clothes, travel to work, space in your house etc. If you get a
good accountant they can really help. 5\. Berlin itself is very cheap to get a
great location, good tech talent but not overflowing, incredibly decent
lifestyle, lots of space, lovely place to live a chilled out vibe.

I'd say if you've lived in Germany and Berlin and like it, you can do it. If
you have never lived there you should move their first and see if you like the
German way of life first, it's not like US or UK.

~~~
good_vibes
How is the German way of life different from US/UK?

I've been thinking about living/working in Berlin for some time now. I've
always respected German engineering, one of my favorite authors is Herman
Hesse, I enjoy the nature photography I've seen of the German countryside, and
I've heard amazing things about their beer/food.

~~~
telesilla
How are you with bitter, bone-chilling cold during the winters? Which is
offset by pleasant (though short) summers, where you can ride your bike as far
as you please or enjoy the excellent metro system, and partake of the
extensive creative and social events. I've only spent short periods of time in
Berlin but it always struck me as having a significant amount to offer, if you
can deal with the winter.

~~~
good_vibes
I don't actually mind winter after living an entire year in Northern Utah.
It's refreshing after growing up in the Southeast where it's 100 degrees and
humid in the summer and there is a very mild winter with no snow.

Are people in German nice to Indian people? Not sure with all the politics of
the EU at the moment, the media makes things confusing. Utah was a little
weird for anyone who isn't LDS AND white or married to a white person. There
is what I call a fake niceness about many people there, a few are genuinely
nice though.

I've heard German people are very friendly and intelligent, what was your
experience?

~~~
majewsky
> Are people in German nice to Indian people?

If you have an Indian accent, that should be pretty recognizable. If you don't
speak, though, expect people to think that you're from the Middle East, a
region that's (to say it lightly) not that popular with a certain part of
Germans.

Which isn't to say that you won't be able to make friends. Quite on the
contrary. The outspoken racism of a small part of the population (catch
phrase: "I'm not a nazi, BUT...") has made another part of the population even
more willing to embrace multiculturalism.

~~~
good_vibes
I speak clear English, as I was born in the US. However, all my friends have
called me Kumar for the longest time. I can talk about music, film, books,
tech, science.

I think Berlin will be okay for me because I'm working on a platform that aims
to solve a few environmental issues. Germany is very progressive in that
arena, Utah has been in the news around the world for the whole Public Lands
fiasco.

------
philippz
There was enough said about taxes.

The procedures to open a startup in Germany are complex. This is the cheapest
way: Go to the notary and create a "UG" after "Musterprotokoll". Create a
company bank account, transfer the minimum amount of 1€ (plus the costs for
founding, so you better transfer ~500€). This the fastest way and costs you
together with an entry the commercial register (150€) around 500€ (300€ for
the notary, depending on how many founders). This is followed up by stuff like
"Körperschafts Anmeldung @Finanzamt", "Gewerbeamtanmeldung" (25€) and "IHK
Gebühren" (80€/yr) and "VBG Anmeldung" (costs vary by the amount of employed
persons). Don't forget the contract for the CEO as employed person.

As already told by others: You need to have a native speaker on your side to
deal with the bureaucracy. Is this a startup friendly environment? Does it
sound like? Hell no.

On the other hand: You can live in Berlin really cheap if you want to.
Infrastructure is great and you don't need a car. There are a lot of meetups
and startup events to get around people like yourself. Programmers aren't
payed that well. Fundraising is a matter of network and traction like, i'd
say, everywhere else.

~~~
BjoernKW
I'm not saying it isn't bureaucratic. It is. However, I suppose you need a
native-level proficiency speaker everywhere when founding a company.

~~~
8draco8
It is. In UK or Poland you can open company online in a matter of minutes if
you have all necessary documents. If not it should take you around week (maybe
little bit longer in Poland because you have to wait for decision, which
sometimes takes time)

~~~
BjoernKW
Fair enough. The process definitely is a major pain in the arse. However,
founding a company shouldn't be something done lightly. After all, it'll be a
major factor in your life for the next few years at least. On that timescale
the complexity of founding the company doesn't matter all that much.

Moreover, yes in the UK you can register an Ltd. entirely online. However, you
still need to complete the required legal paperwork and register with Her
Majesty's.

------
manggit
When I worked at a cleantech startup in the summer of 2010, the culture was
less favorable to employees than in the bay area. For example, it seemed that
the cultural norm was to give none, or very little equity, thus reducing the
upside for any early employee.

In recent years I have interviewed as a Software Engineer and Senior Product
Manager at a couple startups in Germany. However, after receiving a couple
offers, I found that the costs of living in Germany as an American (US Taxes,
Visa, USD -> Euro exchange rate) were not sufficiently covered by the
salaries, even on the high end.

For American companies looking to hire talent in Germany, I have heard that it
is was less competitive, lower cost per engineer and the talent top notch.

~~~
majewsky
Yeah, the US making you pay taxes as a citizen while working abroad is pretty
cruel. I had a colleague from America who was sitting in our German office for
some time, who didn't know about this rule and was utterly shocked when the US
told him he'd have to pay some 20k dollars or so in taxes. He flew back to the
US within a day or so to avoid any additional taxes.

~~~
Bombthecat
It is not cruel,

he needed to have earned a shit ton of money (I think right now around 120K? a
year for the need to pay taxes in US, if he not a CEO it is quit hard to get
that payment even if you are a pro programmer)

------
sultanofsaltin
I'm moving to the Berlin in the fall myself. Planning to use it as our home
base for work/ exploring Europe from early Oct '17 to late Aug '18\. I
freelance as a software dev (primarily Python, JS and PHP work) in the US now
and would love to hear if anyone has tips on picking up clients as an
foreigner. I've been studying German daily (15-30 mins) for the past 1.5
months, hoping to be near fluent by the time we arrive, so hopefully I can
minimize the language barrier.

Are there any good resources people have used for finding freelance work
internationally or that are even specific to Berlin/ Germany?

~~~
csa
> I've been studying German daily (15-30 mins) for the past 1.5 months, hoping
> to be near fluent by the time we arrive, so hopefully I can minimize the
> language barrier.

Assuming that you are an American with little or no prior language learning
experience, you may want to adjust your expectations.

It seems like you will have ~75 hours (5 months at 0.5 hours per day) of study
by the time you leave. That should get you to a basic beginner level (CEFR A1)
-- maybe A2 is you are really good. 5 months of full time study might get you
to a minimal level of professional competence (CEFR B2).

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_R...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages)

Of course, if you speak a language that is linguistically closer to German
and/or if you have learned foreign languages before, then the expected time to
reach a level can be shortened.

Regardless, I encourage you to keep your expectations reasonable.

If you have any questions, I will be glad to answer. This is an area in which
I have quite a bit of theoretical and practical knowledge.

~~~
sultanofsaltin
Yeah, definitely had the rose color glasses on for that one. CEFR seems like a
really good benchmark, I've been using a combination of the Assimil method
(books/ tapes) and Duolingo just for the benchmarking / competing with my
girlfriend while we learn together.

The CEFR seems like a great reference point though that I wasn't aware of so
that could be a great more objective measure.

We're hoping to add a few shows/ podcasts to our regime this summer to get our
ears more accustomed.

~~~
piva00
I'd suggest listening to audiobooks of simple children books instead of
shows/podcasts that might be too complex for you now. Also get a German-German
dictionary and use it to read simple news websites (reading the definition of
a word you don't know in German will help more than translating all the time),
listen to radio news as normally the hosts will speak with a more clear
intonation and you can pick up words instead of a stream of sounds.

That's at least what is helping me with Swedish.

Realistically if you want to get to at least a B2 level you are going to need
much more than 15-30 min daily, even more because you aren't immersed in the
culture and German is, frankly speaking, a quite hard language to learn.
Sentence structure looks quite foreign if you only know English, grammar is
complex, you have 3 different genders, etc.

Not trying to discourage you, much the opposite, go harder and you can do it
but be realistic about it.

------
mkreis
I'm German, moved around quite a bit and spend two years in Silicon Valley.
After moving back, I worked for a startup in Berlin and eventually founded
(with two other guys) my own startup beginning of 2016, which we sold one year
later.

Berlin is certainly the best place to found in startup in Germany. The
ecosystem is huge and a large portion of people are from other countries, thus
it is very international (and english speaking).

Of course there is a lot bureaucracy in getting the company started, but you
are not the first one to do that and there are people helping you. German tax
law is complicated, thus it is definitely worth hiring an accountant to do all
the paper work for you (if you run a proper business with customers, not just
a stealth startup). We did some price comparison, in particular for lawyers to
draft some contracts, which revealed a huge difference (range between 100 -
350 euros/h) and helped us save a lot of money (we even got a fixed price).
Same for tax accountants. I strongly suggest picking small offices, not the
ones with fancy offices in expensive locations. You'll pay for that and the
service is almost identical.

Depending on the legal entity you choose (UG, GmbH, ...) the costs vary. GmbH
are most common and have a good reputation, but are expensive if you have
multiple owners. Also you need to invest at least 25k upfront (therefore the
good reputation). UGs are cheap and you can do business as well, it just looks
cheaper on your business card. Of course there is more to take into account,
but that would lead too much into details.

To get more information about founding in Berlin, there are plenty of meetups
for all kinds of topics and the state Berlin as well as the board of trade
(IHK) are very interested in helping founders (they are their future members).
There you'll find even more fairs and events for founders.

------
charlesdm
I'm not based in Germany / Berlin (great city though!) but I wouldn't exactly
call German taxes simple or low. Germany has one of the most complicated tax
codes in the world, obviously written in german.

If taxes are mostly what matter to you, then there are probably better places
to relocate to.

~~~
manggit
The one nice thing about German taxes is that, although complicated, they make
it very easy for you to know how much you owe. They essentially obfuscate the
complexity from the citizens.

Also, consider what you are getting for your German taxes, and it may very
well be worth it. If only the MUNI in San Francisco ran like the U-Bahn. You
really have no reason to own a car in Germany.

Also note, as a Software Engineer living in California, your income tax (State
and Federal) is probably close to 40%.

~~~
closeparen
Why do German automakers thrive there, then? Always found it odd that some of
the most sophisticated cars in the world are made in a country where
supposedly no one has any use for them.

Is it just cities vs. small towns?

~~~
goerz
Yes, 90% Of Germans live in small- to medium-size cities (I.e., not in Berlin,
Cologne, Hamburg, and Munich). Berlin in particular has exceptional public
transport.

~~~
germanier
Don't forget the Ruhr area on your list which has another 8% of people. I
would say you could live without a car in most major cities (these are the 79
with more than 100k inhabitants). About a third of Germans live there. When it
gets smaller than this relying on public transport is getting more and more
inconvenient. The third that lives in small towns or rural areas definitely
needs a car — or rather two — per household.

------
sultanofsaltin
Some more meta-questions: are there some HN-esque sites that are more popular
in Europe/ Germany? Even between major cities in the US I've observed a lot of
variability in job postings/ language usage trends, services used, etc. Has
anyone found that to be the case in international work? How have you dealt?

~~~
mkreis
Not HN-esque but worth mentioning: A popular job page is berlinstartupjobs.com
and the xing.com, the LinkedIn competitor in German speaking countries.

