
Ask HN: What is the difference between Burnout/Depression/Laziness/Wrong job? - throwaway130119
Burnout gets a fair bit of discussion here on HN, but I&#x27;m wondering what the community thinks are the differences between a few subtly different challenges:<p>1) Burnout<p>2) Depression<p>3) Laziness<p>4) Being in the wrong job<p>Given that they all have very similar symptoms, how would you determine which one an individual is dealing with?
======
tomhoward
Burnout is your mind/body's way of telling you and/or signalling to others
that you've been stuck on the wrong path for too long.

Depression is a clinical condition that arises when your mind/brain is unable
to cope with the experiences/environment it's been in for an extended period
of time, and is a signal that a change is needed in the brain/mind (medication
and/or therapy) or in the environment (changes to e.g., lifestyle,
relationships, job, location) - and likely both.

Laziness is a lack of motivation that could be caused by any number of things,
but is generally a sign that your current life situation doesn't inspire you
into positive action. But it could also be related to an undiagnosed mental
and/or physiological illness that impedes your energy production/utilisation.

Being in the wrong job is a common sentiment, and may or may not be a problem
depending on how empowered someone is. An empowered person (someone with
enough qualifications/experience/confidence/energy/etc) will negotiate better
conditions for their current job or find a new job that they're better suited
to. A disempowered person will stay in the job due to lack of other options,
and after long enough may end up being affected by one or more of the first
three conditions.

Background: experienced it all over 15+ years and researched far and wide.

~~~
bergerjac
Jobs are like clothes. There is no "wrong job". There are jobs which _fit now_
, and all other jobs.

A job may fit, then as we grow, we get new ones that fit better.

I would say the stages are usually:

#1: Grow out of the current job

#2: Still working same hours, but tasks become boring, therefore instead of
the job fueling us, it drains us... causing Burnout.

#3: Then Laziness settles in, because putting energy into boring tasks only
leads to Burnout.

#4: Spiraling down the Laziness slide, into Depression. Simply, Depression is
a loss of interest in activities once enjoyed. The antidote to Depression is
doing... Doing new things we enjoy.

Therefore, take up an entirely new, and different practice. Perhaps move up to
management. Or go to a new place, around new people.

TLDR: Do new.

~~~
benj111
I don't agree with laziness leading to depression.

Laziness stems from not caring, depression stems from the opposite.

I think what you've labelled as laziness could better be labelled as something
else. Apathy perhaps?

~~~
username90
The constant criticism lazy people often face can easily lead to depression.

~~~
benj111
That isn't what the parent seems to be suggesting.

~~~
username90
Ah, you are right! Sorry, I am too lazy to thoroughly read long comments...

------
lr4444lr
I think the OP is looking for a differential diagnosis. Here is my 2 cents:

Burnout: taking time off is a sufficient cure.

Depression: you cannot feel pleasure even at points of success when everyone
else is, and it won't be so if you changed anything else about the job.

Laziness: you are not unhappy or unwell but notice other people with roughly
your skillset and responsibility are more productive.

Wrong job: you are arguing a lot with people or taking a lot of criticism for
having legitimately valid alternative opinions or ways of doing things.

~~~
dnautics
I disagree about burnout. Taking time off could possibly be the worst thing.

In my experience personally and observing others, burnout is most often caused
when you have a disconnect between expected reward (monetary, status, _or_
emotional) for labor and actual reward for labor, effectively negatively
reinforcing labor. It's especially bad when the miss is uncorrelated to
performance, e.g. political or business decisions derail your e.g. promotion
or payoff.

Taking a break to mitigate burnout can thus make the next cycle worse. A
better choice is to take structured vacations at set points in the future, and
when you feel like a missed expectation is likely or has happened, reinforce
the work-reward relationship by doing little work things that create pops of
success. The counterintuitive thing is that a strategy to counter burnout is
_more work_ (but carefully curated to nearly guarantee success)

For programming, I find going into an intense refactoring or debugging cycle
is helpful (making green dots out of red ones is immensely satisfying)... When
I was a biologist, I found doing routine "never fail" procedures like
molecular biology to be helpful after an experimental failure or catastrophe,
like staying up on an all nighter and coming back the next day to find a
procedural error had ruined the whole thing

~~~
maceurt
> For programming, I find going into an intense refactoring or debugging cycle
> is helpful (making green dots out of red ones is immensely satisfying).

For me personally whenever I have felt burned out by programming I just went
over to one of those competitve programming sites and solve one of their
problems. It is also cool seeing your rank move in correlation with others. I
know if I quit peogramming for a week then I will actually feel less motivated
to code.

------
jjk166
Burnout is the mental equivalent of an athletic injury: you might love what
you do, but you've been going at it too hard and need time to recuperate. A
burnt out person was previously happy doing what they were doing but just now
can't go on.

Depression is a mental health condition that can cause lethargy and can be
brought on by stress, but it is chiefly characterized by extended and repeated
periods of sadness and self loathing and can be brought on by many causes,
including traumatic events, changes in hormone balance, or environmental
factors. Simple rest and relaxation will not, at least on its own, make
depression go away. While a depressed person is having a depressive episode,
they may find it very difficult to work, but in between episodes they will
work normally.

Laziness means you don't like to work, or at least can't motivate yourself to
do the tasks you need to do. It is a character trait that neither starts nor
goes away suddenly. Instead it something that must be routinely overcome. A
lazy person may have a lower baseline level of motivation than a non-lazy
person, but their motivation level should remain about as consistent as a
normal person's; they won't have sudden unexplainable drops in productivity.

Being in the wrong job means something specific to the job itself is
problematic but the person is otherwise an enthusiastic worker. Instead of
sudden dips in enthusiasm, or consistent low performance, they will likely
show a slow but steady decline as the negative aspects of their job takes a
toll. Often the person in the wrong job actually likes the work itself, but
other aspects of the working environment such as coworkers or organization
make them unhappy.

Finally, these cases are not mutually exclusive. A lazy person can find
themselves in the wrong job, get burntout trying to do it anyways, triggering
the onset of depression. Luckily, the remedies for each challenge are very
unlikely to have a negative effect on someone who is actually facing one of
the other challenges.

------
JakeAl
This video is a good primer on burnout by an expert.

"Understanding Burnout," Prof. Christina Maslach (U.C. Berkeley)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kLPyV8lBbs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kLPyV8lBbs)

This article is a summary of what's in the above speaker's book

Recovering from Burnout
[https://kierantie.com/burnout/](https://kierantie.com/burnout/)

I also want to mention the article above has a link to Mind Tools, which is a
web site that has a test you can take but I recommend reading their articles
on leadership as it helps one understand their place and the direction they
need to take as leaders of their own life as well as leaders in the lives of
others, which is an interesting perspective in the context of the listed
topics.

~~~
spurgu
>a web site that has a test you can take

Yay, 60 points!

------
n1000
ADHD is missing in the list. Many undiagnosed adults with ADHD consider
themselves lazy and / or stupid. However, the disorder has important impact on
the executive function of the brain and also on emotional regulation
(depression is a common comorbidity and is often falsely diagnosed as bipolar
disorder). Oh and ADHD makes people more prone to burnout.

~~~
bluntfang
I scared to label laziness or stupidity as undiagnosed mental
illness/disorder. People with ADHD are valuable to society and have different
strengths, weaknesses, and perspectives than those without, although they may
not be best suited for jobs that require high levels of executive function.

~~~
tw1547405389
I think you got the exact opposite meaning of what the parent comment wanted
to say.

Assuming you're not trolling: if you think you have ADHD and are telling
yourself "may not be best suited" etc I strongly recommend looking into this
in more detail. At its root, ADHD is a "hardware problem" in one part of the
brain and can occur independent of other attributes of a person. So a highly
intelligent and not-so-intelligent person can both have ADHD.

If you _DONT_ think you have ADHD, educate yourself and stop saying ignorant
stuff. Do you think near/long sighted people should not wear glasses too, and
that people with depression should not get treatment?

You can start by watching Dr. Barkley's videos on youtube.

PS: Every time ADHD is mentioned someone pops up with an ignorant comment. You
win this thread!

~~~
bluntfang
I disagree with your notion that ADHD is a problem at all. It's just that
societal norms value people who don't have ADHD at this time.

~~~
smoofles
Ugh, that’s a bit of a catch-all arugment, though. Acohol addiction? Societal
norms problem. Education? Societal norms problem. Going or a killing spree?
Societal norms problem. Bad teeth? Societal norms problem. Having to listen to
everyone’s opinion out of being polite? Societal norms problem.

Maybe you should find someone with severe ADHD and try to convince them it’s
not a problem at all, see how that goes.

------
jm__87
I think I would start with the easiest one, which is whether or not you feel
like you're in the right job. Just make a list of what you like about your job
and what you don't like. If the dislike category is large, you need to ask
yourself some more questions. Are you likely to find employment elsewhere in
your field without all those cons? This may require some research. If not, are
there other fields of work that may be better suited to your preferences?
Again, got to do some research here.

I'm just going to ignore the laziness point since I don't really like that
word. You can dislike an activity and avoid it, that doesn't make you lazy. If
you need to still do something regardless of whether you like it or not, you
need to change how you think about that activity or find a way to enjoy it,
otherwise you're just needlessly torturing yourself. Or you just avoid
thinking about how much you dislike something and just do it instead. Either
way, saying someone is lazy carries both a negative judgement and a lack of
insight, so this word I think is best avoided. If you feel you're being
"lazy", best to try to understand why you're avoiding what you think you
should be doing and fix it.

Lastly, if you're depressed or burnt out, there will be some obvious signs.
You'll be tired, have a hard time focusing, you may have muscle aches or
headaches all the time. You may see nothing positive in your future and may
ruminate excessively about your perceived shortcomings or problems. You may
also find it difficult or impossible to react emotionally to things (e.g.
being excited or sad). Basically, you'll feel terrible all the time.

------
me551ah
1) Burnout - When you first start doing something, like a new project or a new
technology you end up enjoying it since there is so much to learn and do. Over
a period of time you end up doing the same mundane tasks and have to exert a
huge amount of effort to do something which you could earlier do in a short
period of time. Usually only limited to work. Switching projects/jobs helps.

2) Depression - It is a state of mind where you do not have the energy to do
anything, not only in office but also in personal life. Usually characterized
by lack of enthusiasm in anything and a lingering feeling of sadness.
Switching jobs won't help, consulting a psychiatrist will.

3) Laziness - A state where you have been doing the same thing for so long
that you have gotten good at it and do not feel panic anymore. If you do not
have any aim in life and just want to cruise along ( and have the ability to
cruise along while getting good reviews in office ) laziness is a valid
choice. It might not get you promoted or noticed at office and you will
stagnate. IMO it is not a negative state to be in, but not positive either.

4) Being in the wrong job - Two types that I can think of

1\. You have tons of energy, you have tons of enthusiasm and want to do tons
of work but still you seem to be going nowhere, is a sign of being in the
wrong job.

2\. You have low energy, you don't enjoy what you do while at your job. At
home you have high energy, contribute to projects and can work on stuff which
interests you and can get you paid. In burnout, depression and laziness
people's ability to do side projects is markedly diminished. This is not the
case with being in the wrong job.

~~~
Noumenon72
4 sub 1: Exactly what happened to me at the plastics factory. So much better
off programming.

4 sub 2: I think I have the right job but the wrong home.

------
anujsharmax
> how would you determine which one an individual is dealing with?

The individual needs to talk to an expert (a doctor or a therapist) to find
this.

Many medical issues show similar symptoms - we go to a doctor for a physical
issue, then why do we think we know enough to diagnose mental issues?

These things are complex, and it is okay to ask for help.

~~~
keratin7
I'm not saying that we're, by any means, qualified to self diagnose. The
problem with your analogy is there are physical attributes/tests that tell
doctors what is wrong when dealing with physiological problems. Even when the
methods rely on us telling the doctors, it's usually a binary choice. On the
other hand, it gets a lot more subjective when it comes to mental health.

------
throwaway3912
The list is mixing apples and oranges.

In psychology, laziness simply does not exists as a mental health issue or as
a personality trait.

It's a vague and judgemental word used to describe a behavior while the real
cause might be burnout, depression or many other.

~~~
bergerjac
OP doesn't mention "psychology", nor "mental health issue", nor "personality
trait"

Laziness isn't vague, nor judgemental. Laziness is marked by non-production.
Which can be measured by simple time-tracking. How many hours a day is he
coding/writing vs. on YouTube "passing the time".

Moreover, the post specifically says "symptoms". And he's attempting to
discern between the words, specifically asking "What's the difference
between..."

~~~
jm__87
I've always viewed laziness as a word that people use to describe behavior
when a person didn't do what they were supposed to do, but they dont care or
don't know how to investigate why.

What you described is not laziness but either a lack of focus, a lack of
awareness of how you are wasting your own time or a conscious decision to not
do your work in favor of something else. Both depression and burnout make it
hard to focus on tasks that are going to move your life forward, so you could
easily be depressed or burnt out AND waste hours on Youtube as a result of it.
You could also just be a distracted individual who is not burnt out or
depressed and still waste time on Youtube. You could be too tired to devote
your mind to coding, so you waste time on Youtube - this is just biological
reality, and I dont think we would normally call someone lazy if they can't
code anymore after a 12 hour day. Perhaps the act of coding brings about some
negative thoughts (e.g. why am I doing this, my colleagues are just going to
criticize my commit) so you're actively avoiding it in favor of another
activity. This is not necessarily lack of focus but maybe a lack of awareness.
Perhaps you are feeling stressed and watching Youtube helps you relax, so it
is a strategy to help you avoid burnout in the long run. Basically, I don't
think laziness exists, its just a word used to describe something you don't
understand.

------
WestCoastJustin
> how would you determine which one an individual is dealing with?

It really depends on your relationship with this person. If you are peers, it
is really none of your business, they need to chat with their manager or HR
(if they want too/have too). You have no idea what they are going through at
home, it could be some health issue, and none of these things, or all these
things. If you are managing someone who is going through this, you need to
support them, what can you do to help/understand? Likely this starts with a
coffee and a chat on how's things going? Do they need time off, are they over
worked, work on what a path forward looks like. If you are friendly peers,
chat with them in a non-weird way. Take them for coffee/beers, ask how are
things going, how's work?

Just a heads up, don't ask someone who is burnt out or depressed, why they are
lazy or lagging behind, this is extremely out of touch with what they are
going through. I'm sure they are already hyper aware.

------
MrTonyD
Kinda off-topic, but I've had jobs where I've been considered incompetent, and
other jobs where I've been considered gifted and visionary. Other jobs have
considered me lazy, a hard worker, smart, and dumb. My point is that often we
are given labels in contexts - and those labels are totally unrelated to
reality except by the specific people in those contexts. So we need to be
careful - none of us are perfect, but that doesn't mean that we should believe
what we are told.

------
ak39
My 2c from personal experience (n=1):

1) Burnout is acute exhaustion caused by successive days of lack of sleep,
successive weekends of working late with long delays in launch, feedback or
project completion.

2) Depression (not the clinical kind) is chronic exhaustion and chronic
depletion of dopamine. No hope. No care for the project, product or for
completion because you know it doesn't matter. This is caused by poor
feedback, rejections, project failures (product does not work) but mostly
because of running out of money.

3) Laziness is when your subconscious is too smart for yourself about the
prospects of success resulting in inaction. For example: you may be outwardly
excited about a project/product but your internal subconscious mind has
already doomed it as a failure therefore you find all sorts of excuses not to
start or finish the project. Your subconscious has already done FWIW a cost-
benefit and SWOT analysis and judges the project as a no-go or no-continue.

4) Being in the wrong job is the number 1 reason for the causes of all 1), 2)
and 3) above.

------
lsc
Burnout is what we call this thing when we try to solve it by taking a break

depression is what we call this thing when we try to solve it via medical
intervention of some sort.

Lazyness is what we call this thing when we try to solve it through force of
will and/or shame, or when we don't try to solve it at all.

Being in the wrong job is what we call this thing when we try to solve it by
getting a different job.

~~~
lsc
for that matter, it might be more useful to s/try to solve it/solve it/ \- I
mean, clearly, different solutions work in different situations.

I'm not trying to say they are all the same thing; just that the only way _I_
can tell the difference is what therapies work.

------
sologoub
Burnout and depression may seem similar on the surface, but burnout frequently
starts from resentment and essentially having to “force” yourself through that
resentment. Heavy physical and/or cognitive workload usually goes hand-in-hand
with the said resentment.

For burnout, rest is important and structuring your work/life systems
defensively can help prevent it. Some interesting studies exist on this:
[https://hbr.org/2014/03/googles-scientific-approach-to-
work-...](https://hbr.org/2014/03/googles-scientific-approach-to-work-life-
balance-and-much-more)

Depression may or may not be tied to anything a person can control. This is
where medication and therapy are very important. Like with most serious health
issues, self-medicating and self-treating serious depression can be extremely
hazardous.

------
Walkman
Depression is a serious mental illness, in which 7-10% of the patients die
(because of suicide). Not kidding. It is caused by the imbalance of serotonin
and readrenalin neurotransmitters.

Depression is NOT a synonym for "bad mood" or "being tired", it's much more
serious than that.

~~~
JamesBarney
> It is caused by the imbalance of serotonin and readrenalin
> neurotransmitters.

Totally agree depression is a serious mental illness, but this description is
like describing bugs as a "debugging deficiency". We know depression and bugs
can be fixed with debugging/ssris but just because we can fix them with it
doesn't mean the opposite is the cause.

For instance in addition to serotonin and nor-epinephrine we also know
glutamate (nmda and ampa) is involved, as well as opiates, gaba, bdnf,
dopamine, and inflammation.

~~~
luigibosco
I just finished reading Lost Connections: Uncovering the Real Causes of
Depression – and the Unexpected Solutions - Johann Hari which may be of
interest. Our bodies are complex systems who are sending us messages and
sometimes patching them with chemicals may or may not be the right thing to
do.

The chemical imbalance explanation is a very simple and convenient one. It
pairs nicely with the don't like the situation, apply a patch (pharmaceutical
or not), repeat. The patch mutes the signal and the theory is that since the
system is functional everything is fine except we haven't dealt with the
underlying emotional issue. It makes sense to me given this situation why some
patients have trouble staying on medications. We can list as many substances
as we want, but to me these solutions pair best with lifestyle changes which
are more hard to implement/navigate which most likely why we default to
patches when maybe what we need is a full version update.

------
estebandalelr
As I see it, they are a package. The wrong job takes you to burnout, which
causes perceived laziness (I'd say it's inability to work), and, if fired,
might end up in depression. It's a deep hole that requires noticing early.

~~~
hoffs
Combination of burnout and wrong job can definitely lead to a person feeling
like his work is useless and causing depression. Don't think you need to get
fired for that.

~~~
Jaruzel
I went through this process exactly a few years ago. After a major breakdown
(my third), my therapist kept telling me to change jobs, but I was too
scared/depressed to make any sort of large change in my life.

After six months of weekly therapy, I finally felt well enough to hand in my
notice. Once I'd done that I felt a huge weight lift off me. It still took
several more months to get back on an even keel, and I'm still popping happy
pills. The moral I guess here is... if people are telling you over and over
again that your job is a major [bad] influence on your state of mind, then you
should probably listen to them.

------
eecsninja
I've always been an optimistic and motivated person, so I can't speak for
depression and laziness. But I can speak for burnout.

For me, burnout is the result of a long period of intense work and effort that
accomplishes little. I experienced this in my last job, where I was brought in
to a specific purpose by a motivated boss who quit the company a few weeks
later. The rest of the org was too bogged down with politics, lack of tech
leadership, and other organizational issues. I put in a lot of effort as an
individual SWE to fix bugs and help other teammates when they got stuck, but
nobody else was putting in so much diligent effort for the sake of the team. I
burned out and a t the same time realized that I was on the wrong team, when
(1) people kept coming to me for help with the same things I'd already taught
them in the past (2) I had way too many moments teaching other people how
their own code works (code that they own, that I'd barely looked at) (3) too
much energy was spent dealing with other teams rather than on our own team
getting work done (4) I had three managers in 18 months (5) everything was
owned by multiple teams, and I wore myself out working with too many
components that should have been strictly divided between teams.

I have since moved to a new team. This is a much better team -- no politics,
no BS, just a few diligent individuals getting things done.

But being on the right team doesn't fix burnout. I'm still burned out from my
last job. I took the last six months to ramp up on my current job but I need
to take time off soon.

------
pasbesoin
One question, is whether the designation is objective or projective.

There are a lot of "lazy" people "doing the wrong thing", whom closer analysis
-- or just actually listening to them -- indicates are actually acting
rationally, within their circumstances, and doing the best they can.

In part, the question for me comes down to: Are you going to label? Or are you
going to do something about it?

I see and hear a lot of the former. Much less of the latter.

Yet those same people would hate to be treated as they insist others be
treated.

So, I don't listen to them, too much.

For years, I made myself ill dealing with tremendously distracting and
counter-productive open-space work environments. From college onward, I was
told -- encultured -- that "this is the future" and that I'd better learn to
cope with, err "thrive", in it.

Now, finally, the cultural dialog is turning the corner on this. They really
are horrible, not just in terms of personal welfare but also productivity.

So, what really changed? I was "contrary"; well, actually, I wish I had been
more so and actually acted against my circumstances.

Now, it turns out, I was "insightful".

Who really failed? The bozos who stuffed us into cattle pens and couldn't even
perform decent metrics against their claims, let alone look at the welfare of
their employees.

So, "burnout", "depression", "laziness"? Just words.

Find something you enjoy doing. Some place you enjoy living. And stuff the
"opinions" about it.

------
tomohawk
Burnout is often the result of stress. One of the main causes of stress is
lack of control of your situation. When you are in a job where you are not
empowered, then it is likely the wrong job. This can lead to burnout. One
symptom of burnout is depression.

If you feel like you are in a situation where you have no control and are
feeling stressed, find someone to talk to. Take some serious time off. Gain
some perspective.

------
apohn
All of this is in my experience. I'm not a psychologist.

I think it's easier to point to the cause of burnout. Too much
pressures/stress at work/home for a prolonged period of time, a bad work
environment, the loss of an expected reward after a long period of extended
hours, etc. Identifying the root cause won't cure burnout, but you can at
least take steps to change it. When you're burned out you may feel like you'll
never climb out of it, but at least you can identify steps (e.g. new job) that
may help in the long term. Burnout can last a while (1 year+) after a really
bad experience.

Depression is harder (impossible?) to point to a single cause. You can feel a
completely loss of feeling, or even just one feeling (sadness) and not really
know why you feel that way. Depression can go on for a very long time.

I think a lack of motivation and creativity is there with both burnout and
depression.

Being in the wrong job is when somebody is highly motivated and has a lot
ideas, but their work environment kills that motivation or inspiration
completely.

------
vinayms
For me, laziness is a symptom of burnout, and burnout indicates that I have
been over indulging in my work, which, to me, happens only when I am really
into it. So, over the years, whenever I encounter an interesting idea to
pursue, instead of going at it with everything I have got all day long, I have
learnt to force myself to take breaks. I have found that, just like the
Judgement Day, I can't stop the burnout but only delay it. Burnouts typically
lasts for many weeks, and if its severe I experience general ennui, which is
the worst kind. During normal burnouts I engage in my other interests and
allow the mind to recover at its own pace.

I never had depression in the medical sense, only a few days of feeling that I
am worthless after failures. Oddly, I like this feeling. It keeps me grounded.

------
betterapps
IMH

\- Burnout is happing when things you're most fighting your self take to much
on your plate get frustrated and not able to get release. Continuous inner
battles and frustration not being able to do things. No able to set barriers
in a work environment. Normally people can recover from this over time. \-
Depression is the state where u end up where nothing brings you joy art all.
Depression is the state when you end up if you're not able to bounce back or
come out the other end of a misery or something bad that happend in your life.
\- Laziness is just not being able to do something. but can be a result of
things above. \- being in the wrong job. not a problem if you have a mechanism
to change the job, if you don't have a mechanism, above things can happen by a
lot of frustration.

------
quantification
Seems like a psychological probe. Bait, in a sense. Enough rope to hang. But
okay, I’ll bite.

Burnout: After all the effort you’ve expended, you never got anything in
return. Like chasing unrequited love.

Depression: In a word, hopelessness. An inabilitity to fantasize about the
potential for a better tomorrow. With an emotion so broad, any cause is on the
table. Grief for dead loved ones. Crippling physical disabilities. Consistent
general rejection by any and all total strangers throughout the world at
large.

Laziness: As a qualitative word for external behavior, inner state cannot be
discerned by this behavioral attribute. As an internal behavior, sometimes
even _we_ don’t know why we’re unable to summon motivation for something we
cognitively know we should not procrastinate. Sometimes, at it’s core, once I
get past a rough patch of avoiding something, I realize that my intuition was
waiting on other cues. A subliminal signal was not yet present. Looking back,
it was only until someone threw those final switches that my entire psyche
agreed that the time was right to swing into action. I’m still not sure how
that works, but I’ve seen it enough times, that by now, I’m usually able to
interrogate my uncooperative subconscious to discover the things I’m sometimes
left waiting on.

Being In The Wrong Job?

This presupposes a “right” job. As if we’re supposed to be wage slaves, living
paycheck to paycheck, under pain of death or firing for the entirety of our
youth, and productive adulthood, until we retire at an age too old to have
fun.

All jobs are the wrong job. This becomes obvious during periods when you don’t
have to work.

But, hey, let’s be realistic, right? We just _have to_ be good little
employees, right? It’s the way to world works. Can’t have too many chiefs and
not enough Indians, can we?

Well, sorry, but the sad fact is, this one’s not a one-size-fits-all kind of
answer. The the others are adjectives of character or psychological state. But
“fitting in” has no simple description. You could blame talent, mixture of
personalities, or the resources supplied by the employer.

Mostly, this thread seeks to lay blame. It smells like a manager looking to
cut heads. And I think that’s the real problem.

------
vkaku
1) Burnout - When you've done too much work and it affects your productivity.

2) Depression - When you have a chemical imbalance or got hit by a traumatic
event that chances the way you perceive things.

3) Laziness - When you do not want to work. It could be due to any reason. You
may be mindfully doing it.

4) Being in the wrong job - Actually happens to a lot more people than 1 & 2\.
But it could lead to 1 and 2. Maybe 3 but then you're getting paid for it.

For 2) you may need to go to a doctor or therapist. Everything else you can do
something about. Hope that helps!

------
melbourne_mat
I'm an occasional sufferer of depression and I know a few people who suffer it
to varying degrees. For me there are a set of symptoms which are always pretty
much the same and nowadays I notice pretty quickly when it hits me. It can
definitely be a driver of the other things you mention. It might be good to
start there

------
CyanLite2
Burnout to me is a sign of extended stress... whether you're in the right job
or not. This just means you need a break. Even Michael Jordan needed a break
from basketball.

------
danieltillett
My cynical experience would suggest that 3 is the most likely by a country
mile, but the indvidual will always think it is either 1, 2 or 4.

------
more-entropy
In many cases the fourth one is the case of the first three

------
rblion
Conviction would be my answer

------
billconan
depression is a physical condition where you won’t be able to sleep. Like five
days in a roll and because of it, you can’t improve your work performance even
if you want to. The only wish you have is a good night sleep.

~~~
GavinMcG
That is not at all the experience that quite a few depressed people have.

~~~
billconan
Seriously? [https://www.sleep.org/articles/depression-affects-
sleep/](https://www.sleep.org/articles/depression-affects-sleep/)

I had it, couldn’t sleep well for a month. My ex girlfriend had it, she
couldn’t sleep for 5 days.

~~~
depressed
My experience was erratically alternating between not being able to sleep
(sleeping less than four hours per night) and sleeping 12-18 hours per day.
Either mode could last half a week, or a whole month.

Many (most?) depressed individuals do experience sleeplessness, but that's not
at all universal.

------
pagade
1.5) Stress

------
throwaway3912
Don't ask HN for psychological support. Talk to a professional.

~~~
betterapps
Why not? I don't see the guidelines that say that it can't be done. I think
people reading this are a super audience prone to the above due the coolness
and hypeness of the startup world having to move ever more. If anything, I
think it should be talked about on channels like this. And yes, also a
professional is necessary.

~~~
WestCoastJustin
At some level I agree with you. You can learn tons from folks that are in
similar situations or have gone through similar things.

But, if you are really burnt out or depressed, this could quickly become a
life or death situation, so seeking professional help in a timely manner, is
the best option. Your life could literally be at stake. Reason is, HN lacks
context and any sustained attention/followup. Take this thread for example. OP
has not provided any comments or followup. We have no context on _why_ this
person is asking this question. Are they going through this personally, asking
about a co-worker, a spouse? We have no idea. Their question and following
discussion could come back to haunt them via a search if they give enough
details. We are not experts with context, sure we can offer advice on
something we might have gone through, but that is not expert advice tailored
to their situation.

So, it is really a good idea, to seek professional help if you find yourself
in this situation vs asking random strangers on HN. Chatting with a
professional is confidential, they will ask and gather the correct context
(with local customs, current medical practice, and laws in mind), and
hopefully give you a good path forward.

Your advice might be different on where you are located too. Do you have the
same options if you live in the US, EU, or Asia? I have no idea on what your
situation is, what your support network looks like, what your resources are,
how bad it is, etc. You are much better off chatting with a professional.

~~~
maxxxxx
Don't forget that a lot of professionals in the psychology area are not very
good. Some years ago I had severe depression and a lot of other problems and
finding a professional who would actually listen was a really difficult and
frustrating experience. So I think there is a lot of value in discussing
things on a forum like this in order to get multiple opinions and especially
hear from people who have gone through this.

You shouldn't take information in a forum at face value but also don't trust
blindly the advice from "professionals" be it doctors, surgeons, lawyers,
consultants or others. A lot of them suck.

~~~
DanBC
Right, but no-one is complaining about the "how to find a good professional"
advice. People are complaining about the fact that these threads often have a
mix of useful, actionable, advice that is somewhat evidence based, and then a
bunch of horseshit.

~~~
maxxxxx
You will get the same mix of somewhat useful information mixed with horseshit
from professionals especially in not so clear cut areas like mental health or
nutrition. I went through five therapists without improvement to end up with
picking up a meditation practice together with some behavior and attitude
changes. All these suggestions came from online forums and made a huge
difference.

As with everything else, gather as much as information as possible and make up
your own mind. Don't believe anything blindly but try it out and see what
works for you.

It's the same in tech. I get better information in online forums like this one
than I get from most highly paid consultants my management likes to hire.

