

Ask HN: Is it ok to interview with other companies after accepting an offer? - atarian

Hello HN,<p>I'm a college senior who recently accepted a full-time position at a tech company after I graduate, but was interested in interviewing with some of the other companies like Amazon and Google just for the hell of it to see if I can pass. I'm actually interested in moving into these companies in the future, but I was wondering if this is considered to be bad practice or unethical? Thanks.
======
djb_hackernews
Whenever we made offers to students who hadn't yet graduated we all made it
very clear that they are free to interview and accept other offers and we
should be prepared for that situation (not in any particular way, but
mentally). They didn't owe us anything.

Of course we made attractive offers to candidates we thought were a great fit
and where we thought that feeling was mutual. and we never had a candidate
accept and then take another job.

to mathattacks points:

\- You are young, and your career will be long.

\- No one is going to blame you for looking out for yourself.

\- No one is going to go out of their way to black ball an anyone over an
entry level position. You are not that special.

\- strong developers have the world by the balls. There is no reason to play
loyalty to someone who isn't even paying you. It's time to get yours.

If it were me I wouldn't have accepted the offer. Assuming you are graduating
in May, it'd be way too early for me to make a commitment. But thats me.
However, it wouldn't weigh one gram on my conscience if I accepted the offer
and kept interviewing to find a better fit. I'd probably use the offer as a
bargaining chip.

~~~
mathattack
DJB - I greatly respect what your company is doing, but I think your firm is
in the minority. This is why most college placement offices suspend campus
recruiting for people who reneg on offers. I cite MIT Sloan only because I
found their policy by accident when I couldn't find their undergrad one. This
is consistent with what I've seen at many other places. (I have no link to
MIT) From <http://mitsloan.mit.edu/cdo/policies.php>

"We expect that all offers and acceptances be made in good faith. Students are
obliged to honor accepted offers. Reneging on an acceptance is a breach of MIT
Sloan's Student Recruiting Policies. If a student reneges on an offer, the
recruiter should notify Jackie Wilbur at 617-258-6492, as soon as possible. We
will review the situation and follow up on your behalf."

~~~
djb_hackernews
It works both ways. According to that link they also require offers to be open
offers until January or February (depending on the position).

Interesting link. But I'm still not convinced the circumstances of an MIT MBA
offer are similar to an entry level software developer offer.

Let me ask you a question. If it is his ethical duty keep up his end of the
acceptance, how long must he stay at the job before it's ok to leave? When
does the at will employment argument enter the picture?

Bottom line, the market for software developers is too hot right now to
settle. Who knows when these conditions will happen again, if ever.

~~~
mathattack
I pulled the MBA link only for convenience. In my experience competitive
undergrad programs are similar. Certainly companies have responsibilities too.
In general I think a year is the right period to stick something out. If you
hate the industry you hired into, backing out isn't awful.

Let's take a step back and go the case in question. Here the individual just
wants to see if they could get accepted later by interviewing now. In my mind
that is both unethical and carries negative consequences.

I promise I'm not this preachy in person!

------
jburwell
Generally speaking, you should stop interviewing once you have accepted an
offer. Your soon-to-be employer has moved from decided to give you job to
planning how you will contribute to the company. It is extremely poor form to
back out post offer acceptance (exceptions would be some kind significant life
event). On the flip side, if you are planning to interview with no intention
of accepting a job from a company then you are wasting their time and
potentially depriving a viable candidate of an opportunity to interview. If
you get a call from a Google or an Amazon, explain your situation, and use it
as opportunity to cultivate a network. They will appreciate your ethics, and
if you don't like your job, you can reconnect in 6 months or a year. The
bottom line is that you have accepted a job -- relax and enjoy your remaining
months of little to no responsibility.

------
bayouborne
At first reading, Mathattack's response seems obviously the most appropriate
(Unethical - presenting yourself under false pretenses, possibly breaking the
rules of your placement office, lacking integrity, endangering your
reputation, etc), but upon further reflection, Horofox's observation has
currency also - in a world that now seems totally lacking in corporate
responsibility to the worker (intentionally unfunding/underfunding pensions,
layoffs of real people that occur strictly as a 'this quarter' response to
share price, layoffs that happen as a result of offshoring _every single
function possible_ in order to maximize shareholder profit, prole/CEO pay
ratios which haven't been seen since the Emancipation Proclamation, and on and
on ad nauseum) why shouldn't each of us behave in a purely rational/self
interested way?

Is there a reason to have regard for the corporation in today's world? Odds
are the company you accepted the offer from was very likely one which has no
notion of a social contract - they need you today and if they don't need you
tomorrow you'll surely be gone without a second thought, and if that's the
case shouldn't we behave in a similar manner? Or does personal integrity still
matter?

~~~
mathattack
Bayouborne-

Relevant points, but a couple thoughts:

\- For better or worse, work is like the prisoner's dilemma game. Some people
assume, "Screw everyone else" because they view the game as just one play. In
the reality, we have long careers. Companies that routinely take advantage of
their employees don't stick around forever. In most fields being known as
someone who will take the short term selfish path every time will eventually
hurt you.

\- The obvious second point is of course you should avoid companies that have
too crazy a CEO to workerbee pay scale, and that treat their employees poorly.

\- Most of the great success stories in technology are build on loyalty. Ron
Conway commands great personal loyalty. (And goes the extra yard for his
firms) Many of the legends of Silicon Valley are mentors to large groups of
people. Not everyone acts selfishly. But if you do act unduly selfishly,
you'll turn off even the most magnanimous people that can help.

Just my 2 cents, but I do see this as black and white. I've seen many people
take short cuts, and seen many people become highly successful. The two groups
don't overlap.

~~~
bayouborne
It appears (from my vantage point 1300 miles away) that the Valley is somewhat
different what a lot of America has become. There may still exist in
Cupertino, Los Gatos, etc, an enlightened collegiality, but what about the
rest of non-startup America?

I think we've again become the proverbial _Cog in the Machine_ , actually
worse than that, not even a cog, just the bloody goop that's unfortunately
still needed for the time being to keep the machine running - and as the
machine inevitably becomes more efficient, fewer cogs and a hell of a lot less
lubricant will be needed. Again, in this new Brave New World, why should we
care about the corporation? Sorry if I sound like a '20s Marxist, but [it's
my] natural reaction everything I've seen happen in the last decade.

~~~
mathattack
Bayouborne-

I respectfully disagree. I don't want to beat a dead horse too much since I
usually protect my wallet when I hear folks preaching about ethics. (Why is it
that ethics discussions usually follow people's economic position?)

That said... I view it as the Golden Rule.

Imagine you're heading to Tulane or Cal Tech or Stanford to recruit. It's
taking a day off your schedule, but it's important to bring new folks in to
the firm. You screen eighty resumes to interview twelve people, two of which
you will bring back to your office for a full day of visits with your team and
management. One of the two will get an offer. That's a lot of work. How would
you feel if someone was just using this as practice because he would want to
work for you later? If you found out, you would blacklist him from your
company.

Imagine you are one of the students at Tulane, CalTech or Stanford who doesn't
have an offer yet. One lucky guy did. So you are trying hard to get on the
interview list at Google, because that would certainly be a great first job
out of school. Unfortunately you don't get chosen for the interview. Who does
get chosen? Your classmate who already accepted an offer from somewhere else.
How would that make you feel? What would you do? Talk to them? Talk to the
company?

In the latter case, it's not "Us against evil companies" it is being selfish
at the expense of one's peers. In both cases it backfires.

This is about people being professional with one another.

Again - I don't want to rant too much on this, as most folks who lecture on
ethics usually have hidden agendas. Thanks for listening. :-)

------
mathattack
Completely unethical, and may come back to bite you.

Unethical because you are presenting yourself under false pretenses, taking
interview slots from people who don't have jobs yet, and are possibly breaking
the rules of your placement office.

It will come back to bite you in may ways. If your current employer finds out
what you're doing, they may go back on your offer. (How would you like it if
they kept interviewing people after they offered you the job?) If Google or
Amazon find out, you may get blacklisted in the future. Classmates who see
what you're up to will not trust you in the future.

Net - protect your integrity, as it takes years to make a reputation, and
minutes to break it.

EDIT - fixed spelling, and add one more point - If you want to work at one of
them in the future, get to know the HR reps, and keep contact with your
classmates that are going there. Let them know what you're up to. They're the
ones most likely to pull you through in the future. (And block it if they see
you behaving poorly in the meantime)

~~~
wavephorm

      Completely unethical
    

Wrong. Unless the company is paying him a retainer he is unemployed and
therefore can entertain offers.

~~~
mathattack
Wavephorm,

I respectfully disagree. He may legally entertain other offers, but that
doesn't make it ethical. If it was ethical, and wouldn't cause residual harm
to his reputation, there would be no issue telling the world he was doing it.

------
okuzmin
The way you put it (and that's an important condition!), I wouldn't call it
unethical. However, if you go to an interview knowing you won't accept the
offer even if you get it, you're effectively wasting the interviewer's time
(and there may be more than one person involved in assessing your skills). I
was in a similar situation about 3.5 years ago when I scheduled interviews
with three different companies, and I accepted the offer after the first one.
I called and canceled the other two interviews for the same reason: I'd rather
have those interviewers working with other prospects.

------
nostrademons
It basically is the same situation as continuing to interview once you have a
job. It's not unethical, it's how the labor market works. However, you
probably don't want to let your employer know about it, and they probably
won't like you very much if you take another job.

------
Joakal
The inverse perspective works too:

An employer hires you. Then they come across more candidates. They continue
interviewing for the same position. You then find out that they have been
interviewing, your loyalty is shaken and you know that the employer can fire
you within the trial period which makes the feeling worst.

New applicants will not know that the position was filled and get formally
rejected if they are not significantly better than you. If they do find out
about position being pre-filled, they'll resent the employer for continuing to
interview them.

Please note that employment culture is very different in many companies and to
not take things for granted. Look at Steve Yeegee's recent post regarding
Amazon vs Google.

------
horofox
It's ok, they are BUYING your lifetime. So get the best deal.

Work ethics? Why should work ethics exist when companies threat people like
shit?

------
wavephorm
Until you receive a paycheck don't think owe them anything.

Go for the interviews. Very few corporations these days have any sense of
ethics or even common decency anymore (which is why so many people build
startups) so there is no reason not to decline their job offer should a better
one come up.

