

Programmer search engine - babakian
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2009/12/02.html

======
KirinDave
In the spirit of XKCD Explained:

Joel Spolsky thinks we should all hire people who regularly use his software.
He thinks those people are cool and he really likes how their time, effort and
reputation on his site are something they can sell to recruiters for
additional revenue. This is literally his dream come true.

~~~
drp
You're right. I wonder if this was part of the plan for stack overflow from
the beginning. This is an ingenious way to monetize its existing user base
while creating incentives for stack overflow users to keep creating valuable
content for free.

~~~
breck
Speaking of, I wonder how many millions an open HN job board could make? The
people I'd like to hire are stackoverflow, github, and HN users.

~~~
3pt14159
PG can we please do this? We're looking to hire 15+ people right now and we
are running out of good people in Toronto.

~~~
nuclear_eclipse
If you're willing to work with telecommuters, I'm still looking for a job,
with no luck, in the Cincinnati area...

~~~
3pt14159
Unfortunately, not yet. What type of work do you do though, I may know some
people looking for someone with your skills. See my above comment for my
email.

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earle
This is interesting Joel is just now discovering this.

As the co-founding CTO of Hotjobs.com, we provided this functionality on the
very first version of Hotjobs in 1996, and subsequently ended up purchasing
Resumix to provide a very in depth technical solution to allow employers this
exact functionality you're describing.

Of course, we had tens of millions of resumes in every possible industry
imaginable all searchable through a very robust search interface that did all
sorts of fancy lexical analysis and data extraction from random resume
formats.

Over the last 13 years, thousands upon thousands of people have been hired
through the exact mechanism you're describing.

~~~
mgrouchy
Not to take anything away from hotjobs, but I would argue that the real value
Stack overflow careers offers is the fact that an employer can not only see
your CV, but at least somewhat determine your level of expertise through your
stack overflow account/reputation.

I imagine Joel believes this has more value then just the data extracted from
a resume.

~~~
freetard
> I would argue that the real value Stack overflow careers offers is the fact
> that an employer can not only see your CV

What stops people from linking to their stackoverflow accounts? Many people
already link their CV to their github accounts.

~~~
mgrouchy
nothing at all, but sadly, I know some employers(HR people, etc) probably
don't even go through that much trouble in the screening process. If you are
paying for stackoverflow to list you you know the employers on the other end
are discerning enough to actually care about your stackoverflow rep. This is
the same value provided by GitHub's job profile.

------
richcollins
I would prefer a programmer search engine based on Github, where people write
code, to StackOverflow, where people talk about code.

~~~
paydro
I think it should be a combination of both GitHub and StackOverflow. GitHub is
great to see if the person can code, and a very crucial part of hiring.
StackOverflow is great to see if a person can communicate, which I think is as
important as having the ability to code.

I've come across many programmers that can code well, but had horrible
communications skills. It's always difficult to interact with these
programmers. I spend more time extracting the meaning of what they're saying
rather than getting work done.

~~~
blasdel
StackOverflow primarily exposes their addictive game-playing, not their
communication skills. The rep/badge bullshit encourages inane responses, and
the wiki aspects cover the tracks.

~~~
robryan
It seems to be more about the detailed and correct answer voted up the most
that you find from searching something on Google, for that it works really
well, not being part of the community there I don't care about that other 10
half assed replies for badges/points

~~~
blasdel
They have a very visible group of users that post a no-assed answer as fast as
possible and start doing the same google searches the asker did to pad out
their answer. Their bullshit answer will be at the top initially, so they'll
have the means to cannibalize the knowledgeable users who follow.

------
nhashem
I said it before and I'll say it again -- charging people looking for jobs is
ridiculous. I don't know who the kid in Houston looking for an OCaml
internship is, but how the heck does he have $100 to spend on this?

~~~
gizmo
Considering the job you have has a massive impact on your personal happiness
it makes a lot of sense to improve your odds of finding the right company to
work for. The cost of careers.stackoverflow is nothing compared to the cost of
actually taking an interview (easily 8+ hours). If because of stackoverflow
you can get by with one interview less it's easily worth it.

Besides, if you have 3 great offers on the table I'm sure you'll be able able
to negotiate a $100/year raise to recoup the careers.stackoverflow investment.

------
marcell
Technical recruiters make ridiculous amounts of money for moving people
between companies. If this is successful it will be very lucrative for
FogCreek.

~~~
kqr2
But that's because traditional recruiters usually take a % of the person's
salary.

Stackoverflow only charges a subscription fee for searching the database so
they probably won't make as much.

    
    
      If you are a hiring manager, you can test-drive our search interface any time and get an idea of how many matches you'll find. No surprises here. But if you'd like to view candidate details and make contact, you'll need a subscription:
    
        * 1 week subscription is $500
        * 1 month subscription is $1,000
        * 6 month subscription is $3,000
        * 1 year subscription is $5,000

~~~
brown9-2
Perhaps it will be so lucrative because employers will get sick of paying
percentages of salaries in recruiter's fees and so many of them will sign up
for this more-modest subscription fee?

~~~
clutchski
Roughly how many points does a recruiter get?

~~~
brown9-2
I've heard 10% at my current company.

~~~
byrneseyeview
20% is standard. Companies with high standards will often pay more. (One
company offered 50% for a very high-level position).

------
amichail
So these are people who are unemployed or risking getting fired by looking for
a job in public?

Isn't it better to find people who already have a job they like and try to
convince them that they would be even happier in your company?

~~~
mustpax
Posting you resume on a jobs site does not necessarily mean you are actively
looking for a job. And I highly doubt an employer would fire someone just for
having their resume publicly posted. Besides, if you’re employer is that
fickle, maybe you should have your resume out there, just in case.

~~~
staunch
What would you think if you saw that one of your employees recently started
paying money to receive offers for a new job?

~~~
Nogwater
I would think it's time to have a conversation. If they're worth keeping, find
out how. If not, wish them luck.

------
ig1
Won't this have the same problem as linkedin, programmers will delist
themselves when they started getting daily calls from desperate recruiters ?

~~~
100k
Stack Overflow charges quite a bit of money for the right to search for
candidates (plans range from $500 for one week access to $5000 for a year) so
that should limit the number of inquiries.

Also, you can easily remove yourself from the search results.

~~~
ig1
In the financial sector recruiters can typically make around $50k for placing
a single senior dev, paying an annual 5k fee is nothing

------
storborg
He says, "It would show you CVs right away", but I can't find a way to search
candidates without signing up. Am I missing something?

~~~
ojbyrne
It's implied by the last paragraph (the bit about test-driving) that you have
to sign up to see the actual CVs.

------
Aegean
500$/week just to see some 900 CVs is a highly offensive price. He should have
started low and increased the price gradually.

~~~
kgrin
I've heard somewhere (possibly from Joel himself, to be fair) that it
typically costs a company around half a year's salary to hire an employee
(between recruiting costs, etc.) $500/week is a drop in a very large bucket
for most employers - at least the kind that are doing active recruiting.
They're probably spending _way_ more than that just in personnel time to
review resumes - and in fact, being able to filter a bit better by quality
will save them that much more in the screener's time.

~~~
liquidben
I can't provide episode number, but I can concur anecdotally that this was
discussed on the Stack Overflow podcast. It was probably at or around the
debut of the jobs subdomain.

------
ct
Why would I pay $100 for this instead of using a free website like
ComputerJobs.com, Dice.com, Monster.com etc? I'd think the quality of
employers would be about the same.

So far I see zero benefits for me but lots of moola for JoS.

------
benmathes
Yeah, charing for participation is silly. It reduces the number of potential
candidates. Headhunters have the equation right: Charge when you actually hook
people up.

Not sure how you'd solve the problem of people finding each other on
Programmer Search and then just emailing each other externally.

~~~
chollida1
> Yeah, charing for participation is silly. It reduces the number of potential
> candidates.

I'd call that a feature. It cuts down on the resume spam. By charging $100 you
create a filter to reduce the noise. It makes the people with jobs happier
because they don't get as much crap and you make he job hunters happier as
it's now easier for them to find jobs.

Everyone wins by charging.

------
benatkin
I tried the free trial search, that he uses in his OCaml/Houston example. I
find it quite hard to believe that there is a Common Lisp programmer in
Bagdad, AZ and a Clojure programmer in Window Rock, AZ.

~~~
spolsky
Well, the OCaml kid is legit, but, no, there are no lisp programmers in Bagdad
or Clojure programmers in Window Rock... did someone say there were? Do you
need one? Window Rock is a dusty tiny town, seat of the Navajo Nation--I've
actually been there, it has one grocery store and a single strip mall.

Maybe you did a search that had 1 result, and then you edited your search, and
the Ajax refresh didn't come back fast enough so it still showed one?

~~~
benatkin
No, I'm not looking for a programmer in either of those cities. I was just
testing it out, to see if I could give it anything that wouldn't invite me to
sign up and search.

I just didn't notice the number to the right, and clicked the "Show Results"
button each time. After I read your reply I tried it again, this time looking
for AJAX updates across the entire page, and I saw it. I think I would have
found it on my own had the "Display Search Results" button been disabled or
hidden when no results were found.

------
jrockway
There should be something that can be added to each user's icon that indicates
their hire-ability. Perhaps only for users above a certain reputation.

------
ed
Ah, it's literally a "Search engine for programmers."

~~~
krallja
Yeah, the results of the search are programmers. The search engine is not
necessarily for programmers to use. Bad title.

~~~
sireat
"Search engine for forty programmers"... my one little digression on HN.

------
dnsworks
This site was clearly developed for large companies having problems hiring
because of their size. The lack of an even remotely useable demo made me
snicker at the minimum $500/week price point.

------
prewett
I'm too lazy to look at the site, but I'm wondering how they are solving the
problem of people forgetting/not bothering to uncheck the "available" option?
I suppose if they charge a small fee, people would have an incentive to delist
themselves after they find a job.

~~~
cruise02
I suppose if you're still getting phone calls and emails, you'll be reminded
to go uncheck the available box.

