
Chelsea Manning's 14 days in solitary for suicide attempt is 'cruel and inhuman' - robin_reala
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/chelsea-mannings-14-days-solitary-suicide-attempt-cruel-and-inhuman
======
beloch
Cases like those of Manning or Snowden present an perplexing conundrum for
governments. If you do evil, scummy stuff and want to keep it hushed up, you
need to make an example of leakers, no matter how well meaning they may be, in
order to discourage further leaks. However, by abusing what the public sees as
whistle-blowers, you lend credence to their accusations (You wouldn't bother
to punish them if they were just making this stuff up, would you?).

It's a catch-22. If you don't punish the leakers, you'll look bad when more
whistle-blowers reveal more of the evil stuff you've been up to. If you do
punish the leakers, you confirm your guilt. The only way out seems to be to
_not_ do evil, scummy stuff in the first place!

In a few hundred years Western civilization has gone from enjoying bear-bating
and cat-burning as popular forms of entertainment to being shocked when
somebody is strapped to a board with a wet cloth over their face. This is a
fundamentally _good_ thing. The public's steadily decreasing appetite for
cruelty and violence is what has made things such as Gandhi's use of passive
resistance possible. Had Gandhi been born a century or two earlier, things
would have gone much more poorly for him!

The notion that the world is a cruel, evil place and that states must, at
times, act without moral compunction is a popular one. However, this notion is
out of step with the reality that the human race is gradually becoming less
tolerant of brutality and that secrets are becoming increasingly hard to keep
secret. It is not naive idealism to expect our governments to hold themselves
to a higher level of conduct. What few gains the U.S. may have realized from
NSA's surveillance program pale in comparison to the loss of confidence U.S.
citizens have in their own government and the increased distrust of U.S.
institutions and even private companies worldwide.

The U.S. government needs to become more open and more idealistic in order to
regain the social license it has lost. The Stasi approach to enforcing citizen
loyalty is less viable today than ever.

~~~
ekianjo
You say that cruelty is slowly decreasing in the public, yet there is still a
widespread lust for war and a glorification of soldiers.

------
eth0up
It still sears my mind that someone could be locked in a cage by our own
government for exposing this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0)
(Collateral Murder video)

People actually died in that example. I am unaware of anything but
hypotheticals regarding anyone killed as result of Manning's "leaks".

~~~
brownbat
It's a controversial video. Additional context:

[http://gawker.com/5515720/stephen-colbert-grills-
wikileaks-f...](http://gawker.com/5515720/stephen-colbert-grills-wikileaks-
founder-on-helicopter-video)

[http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-
meter/statements/2010/apr/...](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-
meter/statements/2010/apr/14/julian-assange/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-
tells-colbert-per/)

[http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-
meter/statements/2010/apr/...](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-
meter/statements/2010/apr/12/robert-gates/gates-said-leaked-military-video-
shooting-iraq-doe/)

~~~
eth0up
Although the links are interesting, my general sentiments on the subject hold.
I more than suspect this particular event (Collateral Murder) was but one of
far too many and remains a common theme. I am reminded of
:[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm6hC2oW5P8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm6hC2oW5P8)
\- Blackwater drive-by recreational shooting spree. There are others too.

The military, notably with its cozy relationship with private contractors, has
created a substantial rift between itself and civilians. Arguably no longer
having much to do with defense, its occupations are highly dubious and without
the support of many (the majority?) who involuntarily fund it. The DoD has
exclusive exemptions from auditing and maintains a hefty black budget. If it
intends to bleed the nation dry without reasonable transparency and
accountability, I'm willing to pardon a margin of error among whistleblowers.

------
throwaway420
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

------
dilemma
... is torture.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Should countries let military prisoners kill themselves?

~~~
DanBC
Solitary confinement probably doesn't prevent death by suicide.

Solitary confinement and 24 hour arm's length supervision might, while it's
happening. But it doesn't do anything to prevent the desire and probably makes
the thought worse.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
There are probably stats on it. I'd have thought solitary would reduce
immediate success in suicide and hence also reduce immediate desire. But yes,
it's going to be very bleak to be under that sort of regimen and I'd also
expect the thought to be worse.

------
sugarfactory
It might be the right thing to do to torture, to add more pain to, someone who
already feels so much pain that she attempts suicide, by some standard that I
cannot comprehend. We might have to accept such a standard as the cost of
diversity.

However it seems obvious to me that it is impossible for any sound-thinking
person to argue that it is justifiable to obstruct suicide attempts. One of
the values upon which capitalism society is based is the notion of private
property, which entails that we have exclusive control of things we _own_. If
it is justifiable to obstruct suicide attempts, that would imply that we do
not own our bodies. Well, there's a name for such people: _slaves_.

~~~
horace123
What do you mean by "as the cost of diversity"? What does diversity have to do
with it?

------
striking
I can't believe this is flagged. Absolutely astonished. Why can't I vouch for
a post?

~~~
robin_reala
I posted it knowing it might end up being flagged. It probably falls foul of
“Off-Topic: Most stories about politics”

------
0xFFC
American democracy! And yet they want to export it to other countries too.

After recent wikileaks leaks, I think we can all agree how deeply corrupt
system is.

~~~
criley2
It's rather ideological and hilarious for you to use the United States Armed
Forces non-democratic and non-civilian justice system to criticize the
American democracy.

In one tiny post you demonstrate sad ignorance to the subject (anyone with
even a -passing- knowledge of civilian vs military justice is laughing at you)
as well as the sad bias which empowers your triumphant ignorance, so bravo.

Out of curiosity, which nations Military Justice System do you prefer?

~~~
whamlastxmas
To be fair, the premise of losing your rights as an American (or as a human)
because you decided to serve your country is a fucking joke.

~~~
criley2
A) You don't lose your rights by being a soldier, but you do face military
based restrictions and fall under the jurisdiction of the Uniform Code of
Military justice.

B) The premise of operating a successful military is more important than
operating a, uih, civilian military.

~~~
0xFFC
I asked a simple question, I don't know why people tries to ignore it, or
start throwing everything they got other than giving answer.

In which logic putting an unstable person who committed suicide recently in
solitary, is acceptable?

My question maybe hurt's so bad, since your have thrown everything you got at
me, otherthan giving simple answer.

Your military justice system is fucking worse than terrorist.

~~~
criley2
"My question maybe hurt's so bad, since your have thrown everything you got at
me, otherthan giving simple answer. Your military justice system is fucking
worse than terrorist."

I apologize -- I suspected and but didn't fully realize I was dealing with
someone who was unhinged.

I have thrown basically _nothing_ at you, and your ridiculous defensiveness
here is suspect.

And to call the Military Justice worse than terrorist [sic] exposes you as
non-English.

Your rabid bias against America is evident, your overwillingness to use rather
petty and ignorant hyperbole is evident, and when someone _dares_ not agree
with you, you become unhinged and defensive and quite nasty.

Have a good day, Hater, but know that your immature nonsense does nothing but
embarrass yourself.

P.S. will you watch a video of ISIS beheading people as they scream and blood
squirts? Will you watch ISIS dropping 24 children into a vat of acid where
they scream for HOURS? Your knowledge of military justice and terrorism makes
me wonder your allegiance. One would have to support ISIS to find the acid-
torture of children to be better than solitary confinement.

~~~
0xFFC
I am so glad, you fell into that.

You finished your answer with comparing your military system with ISIS
beheading. That was what I looking at. Your comparison standard for your
military system is ISIS, Wow. You literally proved my point.

Have good day. BTW It is not secret. I am Iranian. But I don't believe in
nationality. I am kinda extreme anarchist.

~~~
criley2
"You finished your answer with comparing your military system with ISIS
beheading. That was what I looking at. Your comparison standard for your
military system is ISIS, Wow. You literally proved my point."

No, it's not, I was mocking you by engaging in the same ignorant and low-
effort hyperbole that sadly makes up the bulk of your contribution here. I
suppose your limited English skills prevent you from understand ridicule and
mockery, so I'll spell it out for you.

Don't you see how you just "fell for it"? How I used outrageous hyperbole to
literally make fun of you, and you took it seriously?

------
DominikR
Strange how Manning has to suffer without end but Hillary Clinton could be
rewarded with the presidency for leaking state secrets all over the world.

~~~
0xFFC
It is called power.people tend to ignore it, and if you talk they will down
vote you. It is as simple as that.

