
Zendesk CEO calls Freshdesk a freaking rip off - Freshdesk responds - girishm
http://ripoffornot.org
======
hajrice
Disclaimer: I'm the founder of Helpjuice.com. We compete with Zendesk's
knowledge base.

This is so rude from Zendesk. In case you think someone has ripped of your
product, in any way, you (as the CEO of a 30+ company with 10,000 customers)
SHOULD NEVER, EVER write something like that.

I'm 100% with Freshdesk on this one specifically because of the tone of
Zendesk and Freshdesk. The way Mikkel responded to Freshdesk is silly and
childish.

If someone were to make a knock off of my product, I wouldn't tweet at them
like Mikkel did. Or support one of my buddies (who is perhaps disguised as a
blogger for blog XYZ) that's trolling a company's image, saying that they're
the same as Zendesk. Or calling them Indian cowboys.

Zendesk, I hope you understand that you've turned me (an actual person who
supports everything you do, and someone who talks to the folks at Assistly
with a great and friendly tone) into someone who honestly hopes you loose this
"battle" and have left a nasty look in a lot of people's eyes.

I don't know much about Freshdesk's product, but I know the way they reacted
was nice and professional (exactly the opposite of how you responded). +1 on
that.

Lesson learned: You don't do marketing by bashing on someone's product without
looking like an ass (and perhaps loosing a couple customers).

P.S.: (to the Freshdesk folks) Congrats on stepping up and putting time in to
create a page like this. I would have maybe included screenshots of the
product to further help your customers understand that you're not a knock off
of Zendesk.

~~~
nodata
> I'm 100% with Freshdesk on this one specifically because of the tone of
> Zendesk and Freshdesk.

Why would you decide who is right based on tone?

Why not on the validity of their argument?

~~~
hajrice
There isn't too many arguments in play. One thinks Freshdesk is knockoff of
Zendesk, the other one makes a website describing how it isn't. The real play
is the choice of words and how Mikkel("Indian cowboys", the RIP OFF comment,
etc.) went on about this, and how Zendesk responded

The customers are there to tell whether they're a knock off or not. I don't
want to say anything as I'm not a customer.

~~~
nl
I don't think Mikkel called them Indian cowboys - that was someone else.

~~~
ecaron
Correct, it was @cloudgroupsyd (Christian Marth), who promptly apologized and
explained what message it was trying to originally say.

Though he should've learned from Michael Richards and never said something
that stupid in the first place. He had plenty of characters to phrase it right
in his original tweet. But you know what they say about hindsight...

~~~
nl
It wasn't an apology at all. This is what he said:

 _@mrgirish not attacking your nationality only your lack of innovation for
product development, if you were offended in any way sorry_

Let's parse that.

 _@mrgirish not attacking your nationality only your lack of innovation for
product development_ \- here he attempts to justify himself, by trying to
explain what he meant.

 _if you were offended in any way sorry_ \- here he says he is sorry if
@mrgirish was offended - NOT that he was sorry for offending.

That's like me saying "Please come out and have Thai with me and my friends.
Oh - you don't like Thai food? Sorry to hear that - will I see you there
anyway?". In both cases there is no acknowledgement of wrongdoing, and in both
cases the other person is effectively blamed for either being offended or for
not liking Thai.

------
teyc
HackerNews readers, watch and learn. I'm about deconstruct what is going on.

Anybody who brushes off FreshDesk because of its Indian roots is doing
FreshDesk a favour. This is a sharp mind at work and it is lethal.

FreshDesk is executing the standard modus operandi of upstart against an
incumbent.

Jobs is a master at it (I'm Apple I'm Microsoft), Calacanis too (remember the
SEO controversy, and then the Angel controversy?), and Girish is in the same
league. The idea is to frame everything as a controversy, and linkbaits people
into discussing it.

Notice how a custom domain is used and it is a mini website, not just a blog
post? It is a custom website intended to fuel controversy and will drive a lot
of SEO juice from bloggers all over the world. Sit back and watch its PageRank
explode.

Girish is also running very hungry by executing a social media campaign.
People may not buy from Twitter, but it buys mindshare. It will be a matter of
time before FreshDesk gets a good recall rate, as long as it acts heads above
other people. The name itself enjoys co-recognition from Freshbooks as well as
ZenDesk.

Don't forget, Girish comes with a Zoho pedigree, and this is a company that
has bootstrapped itself in India and no one would say the software is anything
but world-class.

As for ZenDesk, Girish has stuck a fork into Ben Keepes for the lack of
disclosure (by the way, I've been a long time reader of CloudAve, always
insightful, even if [I now have to perceived it as potentially] biased), and
then masterfully weaves ZenDesk CEO's twitter reply with the overtly racist
overtone that cloudavesyd (onya Aussies) "Indian cowboys"-tweet. Note that
mikkelsvane wasn't party to the "Indian cowboys" comment, but the way it is
put, mikkelsvane sounded like he was in agreement (although to anyone who pays
close attention to this type of things, he clearly was talking about something
else).

Girish, if you are reading - I'm in Australia, if you could - please don't
turn this into a wider "Australians enjoy India bashing meme". We already have
a hard time here, and race doesn't factor much if at all in business.

As for ZenDesk, the important thing is to stay above the fray, establish their
incumbency, but emphasize their own underdoggedness. Both can play the
jingoist game and appeal to emotions.

~~~
luciferous
> Girish, if you are reading - I'm in Australia, if you could - please don't
> turn this into a wider "Australians enjoy India bashing meme". We already
> have a hard time here, and race doesn't factor much if at all in business.

Aussie here. Australia has in the recent years acquired a bad reputation when
it comes to its treatment of immigrant populations, for e.g.:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Indians_in_Aus...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Indians_in_Australia_controversy).

If you truly care about avoiding an "Australians enjoy India bashing" meme,
then make sure to hold Christian Marth (@cloudgroupsyd) accountable to his
tweet, and other Aussies who say things like this. It belies an insensitivity
toward other cultures, and we should really address this seriously.

~~~
benkepes
Guys - as it happens I'll see Christian in Sydney next week and I'll be sure
to tell him that his comment was insensitive and racist...

My original tweet was an off the cuff remark, I didn't like Freshdesk's choice
of name and I still don't. It's nothing against the founders, the product or
anything else. And it sure as heck isn't some dodgy conspiracy aimed at
ensuring that Zendesk succeeds....

~~~
teyc
Bear in mind, it is very difficult to convey tone in a tweet. The larrikin in
Australia gives a lot of colour to life here, and I'm sorry to see it go if
all communication go electronic.

There used to be a time when a gentle jibe in the ribs between friendly groups
included off-colour remarks making fun of race. I grew up in that environment
in Malaysia. The only problem is on the internet, you are not anyone's friend,
and there is no nuance at all.

------
ecaron
As much as I'd like to side with the guy getting picked on (Freshdesk),
Zendesk is completely right. Ignoring the interface and naming similarities,
you can't complain about ZenDesk on Twitter without multiple Freshdesk
spammers bombarding you. Sure there's nothing illegal about it, but they're
obnoxious with the "a customer of a rival is complaining, I MUST CONVERT
THEM!" concept.

(I called them a rip-off of Zendesk back in late October -
<http://mobile.twitter.com/ecaron/status/123594375560302592> \- and it took
several days for @vshankar90 and @mrgirish to stop harassing me on Twitter...)

~~~
shakes
Something about the whole freshdesk attitude really rubs me the wrong way. Not
saying zendesk is in the right either. I just feel like I read the whole
ripoffornot page and cringe. Definitely doesn't seem like the type of company
I would want to give my time or money.

A couple people complained about their product on twitter and they built a
whole page responding to it? In it, they respond to the criticism by making
personal attacks against those who complained about them? Really weird.

Stop starting flame wars, start making a decent product.

~~~
mfjordvald
How on earth did you get to freshdesk making personal attacks based on this
page? I'm gobsmacked you managed to so severely misread the whole thing. The
entire point of the page is to point out personal attacks made against them
and then respond to the rip-off comment. Supposedly they did make a decent
product already.

~~~
shakes
My point is, they respond to the personal attacks by making personal attacks
against the people who made them. An eye for an eye. In my opinion, they sunk
down to the level of the people who were criticizing them. Making a good
product speaks for itself, you don't have to have this petty back and forth.

~~~
chairface
Where are the personal attacks on that page? I see none.

~~~
shakes
Taking a tweet from someone with 73 followers, throwing it front of thousands
of people (maybe more) and saying that the tweet "reflects poorly on the
intellectual ability of the person making the judgement" is a personal attack
to me. You can argue that they're right, but does the punishment really fit
the crime? It seems in poor judgement to publicly shame some dude who's
comments would of otherwise gone unnoticed.

~~~
shadowsun7
The someone with 73 followers made a racist comment. Calling a competitor
"indian cowbows" _does_ reflect poorly on the intellectual ability of the
person making the judgment.

Don't throw all the blame on the Freshdesk people. Everyone is responsible for
what they say - and it appears to me that you're eager to let the 'someone
with 73 followers' off the hook.

------
sunir
Christian Marth (@cloudgroupsyd) has a lot of explaining for that ridiculous
and risible "Indian cowboy" dig. Twenty times worse because he doubled down on
it while backpeddling.

~~~
j45
Normally comments about someone's perceived race (I didn't know there was more
than one human race) is reserved for idiots who get their education about the
world from tv.

The indian cowboy slur against Freshdesk is beyond ignorant. Especially for a
technie. They're usually pretty good for researching.

Maybe Christian Marth should learn indians invented counting, the pentium
chip, hotmail, fiber optics and lots of other things without which our ability
to bask in our own glory is not as possible.

If they're not perfect, but as we can see from Zendesk, neither are others.

~~~
j45
Thanks downvoters, your hatering feeds my loving. :)

~~~
pelemele
Wikipedia: Smith came up with the idea for anonymous web-based email in 1995,
and worked with his colleague at Apple, Bhatia, to found the company.

~~~
j45
Here? <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotmail#History>

------
omfg
Zendesk should've left this alone. I can't even fathom why they'd start. The
products don't look alike. They are takes on the same name, help / support
desk, which is a standard name.

I don't want to rag on Zendesk. I've been using them for years. But with
stupid remarks like this, their incredibly slow / almost non-existent
development on the product, and lackluster support have me keeping an eye out
for replacements.

Kind of dangerous with stuff like Assistly looming out there.

That said, I'm not sure an entire domain name was warranted for this. I
thought it was just a blog post at first.

------
jen_h
If you're on the right track, competitors are going to rip you off.

If you're on the right track, competitors are going to try to poach your
customers.

If you're on the right track, some competitors are going to talk trash about
you when they think no one's looking. Or even when everyone's looking! Using
profanity in their Twitter feeds, even!

But just because you're on the right track doesn't mean you can't derail; take
the high road and let your customers decide. How you deal with unethical
competitors is just one mettle-proving battle in a much larger campaign.

I sympathize with Zendesk, but there are times where it's wiser to just let
your tongue bleed out. Let that extra salt sustain you for the more important
battles ahead.

~~~
omarchowdhury
How is FreshDesk ripping off or poaching the customers of ZenDesk?

Last time I checked, it was people connected to ZenDesk who are the one's
talking trash.

~~~
Stormbringer
Last time I checked, having a feature list where you compare your product with
theirs, complete with little green ticks and all, it probably means your
software is playing in the same space as theirs. That's the real essence of
the "rip off" portion of the accusation.

Copying your competitors features... well, that happens a lot. Copying their
name and their features, and then acting surprised when people call you on it?
That's pretty much textbook douchebaggery.

But the copying doesn't stop there, because they even copied the pricing
structure!

And then they act all upset when they get accused of copying.

As for the racially inflamatory remarks... go check the last big discussion on
hacker news about the state of the Indian education system. The Indians
themselves say that cheating is blatant and pervasive. So while that kind of
strawman argument doesn't do much for the intellectual quality of the
argument.... you shouldn't complain about being stereotyped if what you are
doing conforms exactly to the stereotype.

In other words, if the shoe fits, wear it. If not, then throw it.

~~~
techhacker
"The Indians themselves say that cheating is blatant and pervasive." - how
does that give one a license to call someone a 'rip-off'. Aren't americans
cribbing of 'lack of culture' in America? So shoudl the world start calling
them names,. "In other words, if the shoe fits, wear it. If not, then throw
it." - But DO NOT throw it on other's face.

~~~
Stormbringer
You don't get it. That they were blatantly ripping off someone else's
software, and THAT is what gives them the right to label them a rip off.

Everything else is just smoke and mirrors, where the Freshdesk guys are trying
to pretend that it is all about name calling, it isn't. Based only on what
they themselves say, it is obvious that Freshdesk is a copy of Zendesk.

------
tzs
The help desk field is crowded. A quick search reveals that at least half a
dozen of the large number of companies in that space have "desk" in their
name. Any analyst that thinks that putting "desk" in the name of a help desk
product is a "blatant attempt to piggyback" off of another help desk product
with "desk" in the name is an idiot or is being paid to make that observation.
(In this case, it was the latter, although that doesn't preclude the former).

------
j45
This might be a good lesson in don't feed the monster so it gets more
attention.

When the big guy talks smack about a presumably smaller guy, it's because
they're threatened?

Who cares if their pricing is a rip off, it's good for Zendesk if Freshdesk is
a ripoff, because no one will use it. By saying and doing nothing Freshdesk
could spiral into a blackhole of me never hearing about it.

Instead Zendesk put Freshdesk on it's own level by talking about it as an
equal.

Zendesk used it's brand power to legitimize Freshdesk as an option just by
talking about them like this.

Instead of never seeing Freshdesk, I checked out a Zendesk competitor because
of Zendesk, with more than normal scrutiny. One feature I now like about
Freshdesk is that it manages multiple SLA's.

P.S., I use neither Zendesk or Freshdesk.

~~~
tingletech
>Who cares if their pricing is a rip off

yea, I read it that way at first but I don't think that is what they are
saying. "Knockoff" is probably what they meant.

~~~
j45
Fair, but we could find things zendesk is a knock off of, no?

Maybe some folks start to believe their own legend too much. Originality and
innovation is far rarer than we'd like to think.

------
bjtitus
Looks like I won't be using either of these products.

Think of all that could have been accomplished on the product had they not
been squabbling and setting up websites to argue with one another.

No one comes out on top in situations like this. I think it's best to end it
with something like: "I'm sorry you feel that way. We'll let the customers
decide."

~~~
maushu
Actually, this should increase the number of trials and customers for
Freshdesk.

It's like playing chess. Zendesk made a bad move and Freshdesk used that move
to respond brilliantly.

~~~
bjtitus
I'm sure it will. It doesn't change my perception of them. In my opinion,
anyone who thinks taking the time to create a web page for an argument or who
thinks a product in the same field with a similar name is a copycat doesn't
care about me, the customer.

They should be spending their time improving the product, coming up with new
ideas, or responding to legitimate support inquiries.

Neither of these companies showed any "brilliant" response. Both end up
looking bad.

~~~
melvinram
You realize that it probably took FreshDesk maybe 2 hrs to create that page
with the intention of defending the credibility of their reputation?

And at the same time, by picking (or rather extending) a fight with the
industry leader, they are gaining lots of visibility for their product.

Was it worth it for FreshDesk to put in the 2 hours to defend their
reputation? Of course. How is that not brilliant?

~~~
bjtitus
Sure. You can argue the publicity was worth something but I am certainly
turned off by the way they went about it.

They could have mockingly made a fo-ZenDesk logo or any number of other things
that didn't make it look like they are on the defensive.

Either way, as a customer I am more concerned about either of these companies
using ANY of their time on this. Regardless of how much time they spent, it
reflects on where their priorities lie.

------
yangez
This whole thing is really juvenile. The Zendesk guys look a lot worse here,
but by making such a big deal out of it and turning it into an obvious PR
stunt the Freshdesk folks aren't doing themselves any favors either. I
understand it's difficult and highly offensive when a competitor blatantly
bashes you but don't overreact and bring yourself down to their level.

------
mmaunder
Regarding the initial dispute over trademark: The "desk" part of the name is
'descriptive' and so isn't the strong part of each trademark. The "zen/fresh"
parts are arbitrary so are the strong part of each mark. These are distinct,
so I don't think there is a valid claim to trademark infringement here. One
could argue that "desk" is 'suggestive' in trademark law which makes it a bit
stronger, but I don't think that would fly.

If one of the companies can show actual instances of customer confusion, then
there may be a case as this is an important test in a trademark case.

The fact that zen haven't filed suit speaks volumes.

~~~
diamondhead
It's not all about a name. Freshdesk is an embarrassing copy of Zendesk.

~~~
chairface
A lot of successful products are copies of something else, and more power to
them. The company I work for* had a competitor make an "embarrassing copy" of
our flagship product, and they managed to get acquired because of it. But you
know what? I don't hold it against them, in fact, congrats to them. If
anything it validates the space we're in.

* I'm deliberately not mentioning the company or product by name, because I don't particularly want to start a subthread about this situation - the particulars would detract from the point I'm making.

~~~
diamondhead
Does your company's competitor copy even your visual design? What I see here
is some bullshit makers trying to promote their product by trolling. This is
not the common case.

By the way, I'm not against copying. I distribute my website,
multiplayerchess.com with WTF License to let people clone it easily.

Again, what I see here is bullshit. It's unethical, it's not honest.

~~~
chairface
Yes, the copying was primarily of visual design. Of course, in our opinion,
it's a poor copy, but they got acquired and we didn't, so who's to say? I just
don't see how it's unethical to try to improve on what someone else has done,
which I'm sure is how companies in these situations think of themselves.

------
preek
Quoting Mahatma Gandhi and then immediately writing your name and title under
it just seems wrong.

~~~
senthilnayagam
It is just a closing argument, I don't think it went through multiple
iterations

------
coryl
This is some sort of PR stunt marketing ploy?

Either way I'm not really impressed (I'd guess most consumers aren't
impressed) by pointless personal bickering. Marketing based on negative
sentiment is not effective.

~~~
zecho
If negative marketing didn't work, we wouldn't have negative campaigning. The
point of it isn't to boost your brand so much as it is to suppress your
opponent's.

However, it alienates the undecided. Mudslinging works best when targeted to
base voter blocs. We rarely see it in product advertising, though, because of
this fear of alienation. It takes a very well-put-together campaign to attack
your competition without giving them too much exposure. The last effective one
in recent memory is probably Mac vs. PC, and that focused on targeting the
frustrations of current PC users. Often you see it set up in that David vs.
Goliath light, which is what I think Freshdesk is trying to do here.

This however, isn't marketing. Or, at least, didn't start that way. It started
with what you said: pointless personal bickering. There's no reason for it and
Zendesk should probably have never have brought up Freshdesk in the first
place, negative comments or not. Freshdesk took it as an opportunity to do a
compare/contrast while people were paying attention. I'm guessing it has zero
effect on sales in the long run, though.

(Personally, I'm now even more glad with our choice of using Assistly.)

------
dotBen
Just to point out this was posted to HN by Girish Mathrubootham himself (the
Founder/CEO of FreshDesk).

It's worthy of debate, but we'll all feeding this PR stunt (and if some people
feel Girish is a troll, then you're feeding a troll too).

And usually it's considered 'poor form' to submit your own stuff to HN.

------
mstroeck
Being first is worthless in and off itself. Execution and customer service are
what counts. If you are:

a) an entrepreneur; and

b) think that "rip-offs" like this one are in some way unethical...

... you need to get your head out of your ass, ASAP!

Taking other peoples' great ideas and applying them to make your own product
even better is not called "ripping somebody off". That process is called
"business".

------
stfp
Interestingly enough, Freshdesk apparently got started when Zendesk raised
their prices - and a comment on HN about how this created a market for a
cheaper competitor gave them the initial idea. So, at least partly a rip-off
in my book.

Source: [http://blog.freshdesk.com/the-freshdesk-story-how-a-
simple-c...](http://blog.freshdesk.com/the-freshdesk-story-how-a-simple-
comment-on-h-0)

------
benkepes
OK - here goes....

My tweet, "“Seems to me that #Freshdesk is an unethical troll trying to cash
in on #Zendesk‘s good name. But that could just be me….”" was an off the cuff
remark. I still think Freshdesk is trying to leverage Zendesk's brand but hey,
hat's just my opinion. I do note that other folks in here have commented on
the similartiies between the two products, I've reached out to Freshdesk
asking to ommuncate with them to review their product - am looking forward to
comparing them with Zendesk.

The image on Freshdesk's site showing a Zendesk post with my name on it
actually relates to a CloudCamp that Zendesk was helping to spread the message
about earlier this year. I run CloudCamps in aus/nz (for free, as in gratis,
voluntary, unpaid). So that image is kind of irrelevant - it's kind of like
saying that a Red Cross volunteer is somehow in the pocket of a large
corporate that sponsors the Red Cross.

That said I did do some writing for Zendesk for their blog - around a year or
so ago and not since then. So saying I'm a paid blogger for zendesk is kind of
like saying I'm an advocate for mcdonalds since I worked there when I was 15.
And for anyone who really cares, I have possibly the most complete disclosure
statement of current and past engagements - feel free to cross check any other
comments I make...
[http://www.diversity.net.nz/diversity_analysis/ben_kepes_dis...](http://www.diversity.net.nz/diversity_analysis/ben_kepes_disclosure/)

Finally, in relation to the comments from Christian Marth about he country of
origin of the Freshdesk founders - that I obviously don't condone. Those who
know me will see (from the size of my nose if nothing else) that I'm Jewish.
My mother spent time in a concentration camp and my Grandfather was murdered
by the Nazis because he was Jewish - with that background it's unlikely that
I'd be a candidate for pulling the race card.

/out

------
polemic
This whole spat just highlights one of those truths that's evident to those in
the industry:

There is no such thing as a good idea, only good execution.

Being first doesn't count for anything. Having a vaguely similar name doesn't
count for anything. In the end, only how well your product works, how many
users you can attract and retain, and how much value it provides matter.

~~~
ericd
There is such a thing as a good idea, it's just not very defensible, because
once it appears to be working well as a business, the copycats come out of the
woodwork.

------
jmedwards
The whole thing is completely overblown (intentionally so and calculated, of
course, by Freshdesk) and was very unnecessary to begin with (on Zendesk's
part).

As an Indian-started helpdesk software company ourselves, the 'Indian cowboy'
comment raised our brows a bit. It was very unfortunate. But then I realised
it was said by a relative nobody. That didn't stop it being used to inflame
the situation, though.

Disclosure: I'm from Kayako.com, competitor, the original Original helpdesk
and bemused bystander ;-)

~~~
adriarichards
We all should realize it's Twitter, home of public flame wars.

Agreed. That comment was from a bystander and Freshdesk pulled it into the
story to sensationalize.

Yes, I remember back in 2005 when there was Kayako, Cerberus, Activecampaign,
Request Tracker and PHP Ticket. All required self-hosting of files and
maintenance. A cloud based helpdesk just wasn't an option.

In the end, customers will select technology that fits their needs. Those
needs may be completely technical in nature but more and more, customers are
making decisions about technology vendors based on the ethics and relationship
with that company.

Nice to see you contribute this thread.

~~~
jmedwards
Ditto! I seem to bump into you everywhere. The Internet is a small place.

> customers are making decisions about technology vendors based on the ethics
> and relationship with that company

Indeed. In such a crowded space with plenty of the same feature-wise, there is
no doubt that the personality of a company (in this case, conveyed over social
media) is going to play this kind of role.

PS: We were doing SaaS in 2005 :-)

------
DevX101
Hey girish,

Can you write a post in a week to let us know how many customers you gained
from this? If you can find out how many came from ZenDesk, even better.

~~~
girishm
If you think that will help the HN community,I will. I have another post
almost ready where I wanted to share my Series A fundraising experience . But
then this happened!

------
kevingadd
Hey, look, Ad Hominems on a domain name registered for the express purpose of
an internet flame war between two competitors! It must be Sunday.

I wonder if these tactics actually have a measurable impact on sales?

~~~
lucisferre
Even if they did it will simply be a short lived bump unless the product and
service is measurably better. If it is then in the long run it shouldn't
matter either way.

However, I do think their criticisms of Zendesk and their paid blogger's
method of product 'evangelism' are fair and they have every right to take
their shot and fire back a bit. It's all good, the better product development
team will most likely win either way.

------
lucianomt
"Rip-off"? It's a help desk service for Pete's sake, not the Xerox GUI or the
Page-rank. If Freshdesk can deliver the same value to customers for a fraction
of Zendesk's cost, kudos to them.

------
wildgift
They're all freaking rip offs of Request Tracker. :)

~~~
j45
I wonder if Zendesk wants to reply to that. :P

------
chintan100
Great response. :)

I will be reminded of this incident every time i see the Zendesk logo when i
submit a ticket on a site that uses them.

What an awful way to lose respect and damage credibility.

------
paraschopra
As CEO of another Indian startup, I am furious that anybody would drag
nationality into this. There are no boundaries on Internet, and certainly
Girish rightly says that commenting on nationality simply reflects poorly on
his own maturity level.

Aren't most of the products rip-off in some sense? Take Apple, Google, Yahoo
or any other company out there. Rarely, if ever, a company comes up with
something totally new and innovative that it doesn't resemble anything else in
the market. A new category, that is. ZenDesk didn't invent helpdesk system.
Instead, like all other companies, they are evolving and perfecting helpdesk
systems. FreshDesk is also an attempt at this, (and so is our product Visual
Website Optimizer for A/B testing tools).

I wish companies compete in a professional and respectful way, this war of
words simply disgusts me.

------
kumarm
If desk part of the name is Zendesk's issue. There exist multi billion
companies with desk in their name (Autodesk) much before anyone thought of
Zendesk. Freshdesk really did good with their response. I never heard of them
before and now anyone talks about Zendesk, I will remember Freshdesk.

------
freejack
All I want to know is how this got to be the top story on HackerNews. Its a
blatant PR grab on one side, and borderline infantile on the other.

Yuck on both counts.

------
alex_c
All I see are a bunch of self-promotional trolls, on both sides of the
"issue".

Is setting up an entire website really a proportionate response to a dumb
tweet? (Obviously, it is if you're stirring up controversy).

Seriously, guys... don't feed the trolls. You should know better than this.

~~~
dools
What's wrong with self promotion? Who else is going to promote you for free?

~~~
alex_c
_What's wrong with self promotion?_

It can make the signal-to-noise ratio unbearable. It cheapens the community,
and makes it less interesting and useful.

 _Who else is going to promote you for free?_

People who genuinely like your product. It's even better than free, they're
paying _you_ money.

------
taylorbuley
Related discussion from when this company launched almost a year ago:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2341454>

------
smoyer
I like how MRGirish admits that FreshDesk wouldn't exist if it wasn't for
ZenDesk. Doesn't that prove the point?

So my question for FreshDesk is this ... How is your service more innovative
than ZenDesk?

~~~
girishm
smoyer - When I said that, I was referring to this
[http://blog.freshdesk.com/the-freshdesk-story-how-a-
simple-c...](http://blog.freshdesk.com/the-freshdesk-story-how-a-simple-
comment-on-h-0) HN Discussion is here -
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2340732>

------
vbrendel
Freshdesk is a cheap clone. I've tried it.

Once all the dust settles, it will be clear that Freshbooks IS a complete rip-
off of Zendesk. 'RipoffOrNot.org'... errrm yes. You could think of worse
products to rip off, so in that sense they've done well.

I'm not going to point out the obvious stolen elements. Anyone can see the app
is not just inspired, but clearly deliberately copied. They've also spent a
lot of time reading all the feature requests on the Zendesk forums. There is
also an import feature from only one competing helpdesk product. Guess which
one.

At the end of the day, Freshdesk is built exactly like any Zoho product
(Girish worked for Zoho). And based on how it feels it might as well be a Zoho
product: feature wise it ticks a heap of boxes and it's low cost. But to live
with it has many limitations that won't stand up in actual real life, as in
this case, the running of a help desk. It's seriously lacking workflow, custom
widgets, the 100+ 3rd party integrations, and plenty more settings and
customizations that make Zendesk what it is.

Zendesk has many decent alternatives but Freshdesk isn't one of them. If
you're actually considering Freshdesk there are a huge amount of alternatives
including freemium ones. Mojo Helpdesk comes to mind but really the web is
full of them.

------
kennystone
Absolutely a rip-off, but Zendesk was stupid to comment on it.

------
gws
Very well executed response. If they can execute that well on this I can
imagine that they are even better on product development and customer service.

I don't understand the comments against their response. I find shameful that a
paid blogger tweet against a competitor with a subjective attack without
disclosing the conflict of interest and that the guy paying the blogger chimes
in insulting the competitor.

And Ghandi's quote at the end fit so well, I am still smiling :)

~~~
Luyt
Gandhi, not Ghandi ;-) A very common mistake.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhi>

------
foobarbazetc
It's kind of irrelevant, since both services are handily beaten by Assistly.

Well, Assistly before they got bought and couldn't keep their service up.

------
techhacker
Any startup worth its passion will use these opportunities to grab attention
(you will be a dumb fool if you don't). So arguing whether Freshdesk is right
vs. wrong in putting up this site doesn't really mean a lot. The only person
who has lost credibility in this entire episode is Ben Kepes (ofcourse he
started the fire).

------
tbrooks
There's a political saying that should be heeded, "never attack downward."

You risk more by attacking downward and you have less to gain.

------
jerhinesmith
I was with them up until the quote at the end. At best, it's disputed[1]. It's
strange how one small oversight took the wind of the entire argument's sail
(so to speak).

[1]
[http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi#Disp...](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi#Disputed)

------
nickpp
Zendesk CEO was stupid for paying them attention.

Freshdesk is SCUM. This kind of strategy, of generating controversy and
creating "noise" around your company is rooted in the "there is no such thing
as bad publicity" belief. It's immoral, and ungentlemanly.

And yes, it is very common with 3rd world companies. I've seen it before. Very
often their products ARE rip-off of established market products as well (no
idea if this is true in this case though). I suppose it comes from the social
corruption and "everything goes" that surrounds life around there. Basically
lack of civilization.

It would be very sad if the market rewards them instead of the companies
focused on developing a good product, improving it and keeping an atmosphere
of cooperation and civility in the industry.

~~~
middus
So without knowing _if this is true in this case though_ you call them _SCUM_?
Way to go...

------
WestCoastJustin
You know you are doing something right when people hate you.. Seems like a odd
thing for them to get into a pissing contest with these guys. First of all,
you're acknowledging their existence and what can you do to prevent them from
doing what they're doing?

------
therandomguy
You must be awfully naive to think that there will be no competitors (with
similar features) when you build a product which is relatively simple. If it
wasn't listed in bold under the "threat" section of your business plan then
something is off.

------
marcamillion
This is a stroke of PR genius.

Agree or not, look at the attention they are getting.

The sales numbers will tell whether or not it was worth it - given that this
is essentially free...I can't see how it won't be worth it.

As for Zendesk, anyway you take it, they have a crisis on their hands.

------
avlesh-singh
Blame it on me being a dyslexic kid. What is there to rip-off? I fail to
understand what is rocket science in Zendesk that any other customer support
tool _should not_ have? Zendesk's reactions are uncalled for.

------
blissofbeing
I have used both freshdesk and zendesk and have to say I prefer zendesk,
freshdesk offers nothing substantial over zendesk.

Having said that I am grateful freshdesk is there to spur some innovation.

------
jtchang
Wow what a craptastic response from Zendesk. I think it is fine to have a bit
of a spar over features in competing products but you have to keep it civil.

------
collypops
I think everyone's still getting caught up in the Steve Jobs-ness of the past
couple of months. CEO's are acting cocky, cause that's what Steve would have
done. They're calling out people who they think have stolen their ideas, cause
that's what Steve would have done.

What they're completely missing is Steve's greatest lesson: If you want to
trample your competitors, just build a better product.

------
nethsix
I'm not arguing for either but trying to state a point. Putting a side-by-side
feature list face-off showing you have more features than the incumbent does
not in anyway, prove that you are not a rip off. In fact, it probably proves
that you are and just trying to outdo the incumbent. There would be little to
compare if both were playing in a different area.

------
haxplorer
<http://fakeoffice.org/> \- This is how Zoho took advantage of the words of
Ron Markezich to get some good publicity and recall against MS Office.

No wonder Girish who is an ex-Zoho did the same with this tweet.

Seems to be a nice way to market your product as a replacement to the current
market leader.

------
dools
Man this is classy. Well done Freshdesk.

------
viveksec
I am Indian and I wish we would lighten up. Things aren't pure as milk here
either. There are quite a few Indian companies which ask their employees to
use Western names while creating online content such as on support forums,
twitter accounts, etc.

------
sarahsflowers
An obvious PR campaign that damages Freshbook's brand perception in my mind. I
had no opinion of them before, but this sleazy tactic creates a negative
image. I think it helps them to build awareness, but at what cost...

------
yogrish
A fitting response from Freshdesk.Zendesk has to pay for its badmouthing. They
started it and Freshdesk is milking the controversy surrounding. May be FD
scripted this long before, expecting this attack from zendesk.

------
orthecreedence
TL;DR: Nu uh!!!! ='''( [Quote comparing us to Gandhi]

I think their response was a bit too involved. They were insulted by some
blowhard (CEO or not) and instead of rolling with the punches, they write an
emotionally-charged, whiny blog post. Not to mention a name is the stupidest
thing to fight over. If you want to see a real rip-off, check out github vs
bitbucket.

Just focus on making your product. If you're doing well, some people may turn
into little girls and get jealous and throw tantrums. Ignore them and focus on
your goals. Engaging in back and forth like this shows nothing but weakness.

EDIT: Just noticed they actually bought a domain for this. Even worse. I don't
see good things in the future for Freshdesk if this is how they respond to an
affront. Also, why are they comparing themselves to Gandhi? You've got to be
kidding me...?

------
eduardordm
Both sides look silly to me. That's exactly the type of emotional reactions
you get from young, technical entrepreneurs. EQ is just as important as IQ if
you really want to be relevant in business.

------
tlrobinson
I'm less likely to give my money to either of these companies now.

I hate when companies publicly bash each other, even if it's in retaliation.

------
keeptrying
There's nothing like bad publicity. I never heard of freshdesk before this.

Use the publicity That you've been given freshdesk but don't overdo it!

~~~
andrewfelix
_"There's nothing like bad publicity."_ Carrier iQ might have something to say
about that.

I agree though, this is great publicity for FreshDesk. May the best service
win.

------
omouse
It's funny because they could be co-operating instead of competing and be
making much more money by targeting different markets.

------
jblow
Why is this here? How do I downvote the post or recommend it for the "stupid
twitter he-said-she-said" category?

------
Krish123456
I started the day off sympathizing with them because I thought Ben was not
right in saying they ripped off the name. But now Freshdesk has proved that
many of the commentators here are right. They are spammers and they even spam
your Google Docs. See the screenshot here. <http://twitpic.com/7p0m3o>

~~~
Krish123456
Looks like Freshdesk is not the culprit but Google. It automatically adds docs
I visit on the web to my list. I think I owe freshdesk an apology for thinking
that they are spamming me.

------
therandomguy
Without much research it sounds like Kepes and Svane got pwnd hard.

------
BadassFractal
Delicious drama. Go on.

------
nemik
YSoapOperas.

------
szcukg
Yawn

------
billpatrianakos
This is going to hurt Freshdesk more than help. Creating that site was an
immature move. They're framing it like this is an issue that anyone besides
the guys at Freshdesk cares about. And calling the site "ripoffornot"? Cheap
move. I honestly thought I was about to visit a website dedicated to comparing
products and deducing who is ripping of who. Then I saw it and I thought
"damn, what a cheap, crybaby, attention whore move".

Freshdesk is playing dirty all while trying to convince us that it's the other
guys that are playing dirty. I hope we all see through the BS. You don't win
hearts and minds by being a bully and they're being bullies while trying to
look like victims.

When I see a company do something like this, that's so cheap and obvious, I
immediately wonder how desperate they are. They're also doing themselves a
disservice by calling attention to the fact that they've been called a ripoff.
People's first reactions will be to wonder why they feel the need to defend
themselves so vehemently against that sort of thing. If they're not a ripoff
then why do they have to work so hard to convince me otherwise? Am I saying
they're a ripoff of Zendesk? No, but their actions have now put the idea in my
head. Major backfire.

------
diamondhead
What Freshdesk tries to do is redirecting your attention to the similarity of
the names. If you really check out Freshdesk, you'll see that they copied
Zendesk with no piece of difference!

------
diamondhead
If the Hacker News people need a guide to notice how FreshDesk guys are
motivated to draw the attention of people by making bullshit, I'm going to
stop reading HN. Shame on you the readers voted this article up.

This is completely bullshit. If you take a look at the website of Freshdesk,
you'll see that they stole the design of Zendesk. They probably did it to draw
the attention of Zendesk and gather some angry tweets that can be used in such
a way you see.

This is the last article I've seen in HN. I'll never enter this website again.
Seriously, enough bullshit for a coder.

Time to leave HN alone with the embarrassing promoters and gossip girls.

~~~
ceejayoz
> If you take a look at the website of Freshdesk, you'll see that they stole
> the design of Zendesk.

Are there _that_ many different possible designs for a helpdesk system?

~~~
diamondhead
Did you checked out the designs of two website? Freshdesk even copy the
buttons of Zendesk's homepage. What the fuck are you talking about?

------
itmag
Slightly off-topic: anyone got any ideas on how to innovate in this niche? I
am always looking to add to my idea pile :) (See here:
<http://ideashower.posterous.com>)

