
Everywhere and Nowhere: A Journey Through Suicide - gringoDan
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/02/18/everywhere-and-nowhere-a-journey-through-suicide
======
UI_at_80x24
To be human is the ability to defy our instincts. From the simplistic "I
choose not to eat", to the extraordinary "I choose to end my life."

I strongly believe that suicide is only a cultural taboo, and thus it is
'safe' to label it as a mental illness.

I have struggled with wanting to end my life for 35+ years. "Talking about it"
does not work. Medication/Meditation/Mediation has not helped. To put it
simply; I do not wish to exist.

I tried to kill myself once. [Dammit i suck at everything! /joke] Not a single
day goes by where I don't think about doing it again. I regret failing.

And yet I get up and go to work every day. There is a momentum to living. It
is just a habit. I take no pleasure from my hobbies. I no longer have solace
within peace and quiet. I am unable to escape in the written word.

If I could end my life and know my family would be cared for financially I
would in a heartbeat. My obligations keep me alive, and it is a torture.

I am surrounded by people who love me, and would be devastated by my death.

As near as I can tell, this is the meaning of life; and I want it to end.

~~~
umvi
I believe there is still hope for you to enjoy life and experience joy again.
I'll stop short of recommending things to try since I'm assuming you've tried
it all already, but you never know what the future will hold.

~~~
chris_wot
After I felt suicidal, I was abused by people in Liverpool hospital in NSW.
Three years later and I still feel suicidal at times, and I have not for a
single day felt or experienced joy. Literally every day since then I have felt
anger, shame and depression at what happened to me. I don't sleep well (I get
nightmares), and nothing (and I mean _nothing_ ) is helping - not exercise,
medicine, family, therapy, friendship - nothing.

~~~
UI_at_80x24
Fuck, that is shitty. I really wish that hadn't happened to you.

------
Razengan
I believe suicide should be seen as a beautiful release for some people.

It's twisted and bizarre that this is such a taboo in human society, almost
globally (I appreciate exceptions like Dignitas [0] in Switzerland.)

Why do we endorse "My Body, My Choice" when it comes to decisions like
abortion, but take that choice away when it comes to suicide?

Why is the termination of life support for terminal patients seen as a mercy,
but vehemently denied when someone who is otherwise healthy rationally chooses
to die?

What if someone is simply bored with life? Would you force someone to play a
game they don't enjoy, or can't ever win at?

I'm afraid suicide may never be universally accepted as a human right, for
primarily these two reasons:

1: It acknowledges the possibility that life is pointless, which threatens
many of our entrenched belief systems.

2: Money. If people could cleanly (without pain, guilt, taboo etc.) end their
life anytime they want, it could seriously disrupt the economy. When people
are no longer forced to live, many industries would make less money than they
do (finance, healthcare, therapy, anything that relies on cheap labor, and so
on.)

[0] [http://www.dignitas.ch](http://www.dignitas.ch)

~~~
staticautomatic
Most non-terminally ill people who attempt suicide aren't making a rational
choice to die at the time they attempt it.

~~~
throwaway34985
Anecdotally in my experience there are three categories of people who wish to
suicide:

1\. People with a terminal illness. Enough said.

2\. People acting on impulse and/or not getting proper help. Sure they need
some crisis intervention to offer a chance for them to receive proper help.

3\. People who have been getting proper help for a long time. They simply lose
hope. They view the long time they have been getting proper help as seeming
proof they will never feel life is worth living. They dispassionately read
coronial reports and suicide methods, carefully put their affairs into an
orderly state (in particular financial arrangements for dependents), acquire
the required resources to execute a painless while assured lethal plan that
imposes no safety risks to others, then go off and do it.

I was in the latter group, but I messed up by saying goodbye to my wife after
a little wine (combined with Effexor) and that resulted in the full force of
the law whack the shit out of me (and the fact it's obvious you're in this
latter group means they take it far more seriously than if it seemed a
fleeting impulse).

Anyway by any objective measure the third group are making a rational choice
to die. It should not be the community's right to dictate they should
indefinitely live in pain.

~~~
staticautomatic
It sounds like you still want to die. Is that the case?

~~~
throwaway34985
I am currently hopeful given a new treatment that's care-focused.

I'd also add that discontinuing antidepressants (with the associated emotional
blunting, at least in my case) means I am more empathetic to the impact on my
wife and kids.

It's when there's no hope you want to leave the world. Especially when you
have means that are painless, assured and safe to everyone around you. Plus
you can use logic like financially your kids are better off with you dead due
to testamentary trusts and the lack of your resource consumption (I had a
startup exit, so retired long ago).

While I still hate living, I'm not actively planning to die at present.

~~~
staticautomatic
This is purely for my own curiosity but did you try electroshock? It seems to
have no effect on some people but work wonders for others.

------
jf
A list of suicide hotlines are available here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/wiki/hotlines](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/wiki/hotlines)

Here are the numbers for the United States:

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255 (TALK) Veterans press 1
to reach specialised support.

Online Chat:
[http://chat.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/GetHelp/LifelineCh...](http://chat.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/GetHelp/LifelineCh..).

Crisis Text Line: Text "START" to 741-741

Youth-Specific services (voice/text/chat/email) from the Boys' Town National
Hotline: [http://www.yourlifeyourvoice.org/Pages/ways-to-get-
help.aspx](http://www.yourlifeyourvoice.org/Pages/ways-to-get-help.aspx)

Spanish: 1-800-SUICIDA

~~~
AndrewKemendo
Despite almost everyone who has made an attempt on their life saying it's
counterproductive and patronizing, this is consistently the first response on
any thread or discussion about suicide.

I think this is symptomatic of the broader total failure to understand what
could lead someone to suicide, and the tendency to assume what someone in
crisis knows or just ditching them off. Maybe just accept that suicide is a
human right and engage individuals in crisis as individuals with unique
problems.

~~~
chris_wot
It's worse than that. Lifeline in Australia claim they have a confidential
service, but in fact if you call from your mobile phone, don't give your
details and turn off caller ID they still have systems that can identify who
you are.

I should know - I was trying to talk myself down from suicide by calling them,
and the next thing I know (hours after I had stopped having those feelings)
the police forcibly took me to hospital where I received no treatment
whatsoever.

~~~
throwaway34985
The NSW Mental Health Act is an appalling instrument. I've been highly
suicidal and scheduled via so-called "crisis intervention teams" (invoked by
my wife) and all it achieves is reinforcing to a suicidal person just how
utterly powerless they are and how grossly dysfunctional and incompetent the
mental health system is. Locking up law-abiding people only lasts so long,
then they leave far, far, far worse than if you had never done that to them.

Support services like Lifeline are a waste of time if you've already been
plugged into medication and talk therapy for a protracted period. You don't
need some well-meaning volunteer to state the obvious that there is help.
You've been getting professional help for years. It's losing hope that leads
people to suicide.

In my case finding a clinical psychologist who prioritises mind-body therapy
(with a strong focus on trust and non-violence) made a large difference.
Unfortunately it requires far more sessions and a "follow your nose" approach
based on the individual client so it doesn't have the empirical robustness of
mainstream therapies. But it changes your outlook completely when it's a care-
focused therapy (ie the complete opposite of what the Mental Health Act
smashes you beyond recognition with).

------
Simulacra
Related, something that really hit me and this community hard on suicide:
[https://gizmodo.com/the-agonizing-last-words-of-
programmer-b...](https://gizmodo.com/the-agonizing-last-words-of-programmer-
bill-zeller-5726667)

~~~
pdfernhout
Bill Zeller talks about difficulty overcoming early childhood trauma in his
last words. He perhaps could have benefited from the techniques described in
this book: "The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of
Trauma" by Bessel A. van der Kolk [https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-
Healing-Trauma/dp/01...](https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-
Trauma/dp/0143127748) "Trauma is a fact of life. Veterans and their families
deal with the painful aftermath of combat; one in five Americans has been
molested; one in four grew up with alcoholics; one in three couples have
engaged in physical violence. Such experiences inevitably leave traces on
minds, emotions, and even on biology. Sadly, trauma sufferers frequently pass
on their stress to their partners and children. Renowned trauma expert Bessel
van der Kolk has spent over three decades working with survivors. In The Body
Keeps the Score, he transforms our understanding of traumatic stress,
revealing how it literally rearranges the brain’s wiring—specifically areas
dedicated to pleasure, engagement, control, and trust. He shows how these
areas can be reactivated through innovative treatments including
neurofeedback, mindfulness techniques, play, yoga, and other therapies. Based
on Dr. van der Kolk’s own research and that of other leading specialists, The
Body Keeps the Score offers proven alternatives to drugs and talk therapy—and
a way to reclaim lives."

------
towaway1138
If this is a problem for you, as it is for me, you might find the depression
and suicide groups on reddit to be some solace.

Beyond that, I think of suicide as more of something to put off than something
to "cure". What can you do to put it off for a bit longer? Sometimes
distraction, sometimes drinking, sometimes just getting out into nature
somehow.

There's a lot to be said for detaching completely from poisonous people and
environments. You might think that you can't leave your awful job, declare
bankruptcy, or never talk to your mother again, but you can. And maybe you
should.

One thing to consider is the subjective acceleration of time. We all
experience that each year seems to pass quicker than the one before, for the
most part. I realized at some point that this makes suicide a lot less urgent,
at least at my age (50s). Putting it glibly, we'll all be dead soon enough--
what's the hurry?

~~~
goldfeld
Patience to live and die is the finest of arts.

------
chris_wot
The problem with recovering from suicidal thoughts is not the fact you wanted
to commit suicide. It is how the emergency and health services treat you.

For a long time now, they have been putting people in seclusion, traumatizing
a lot of people. They take away any autonomy, and the ED staff literally don't
care about you - they are too busy dealing with critical cases and they see
you as a waste of resources and an annoyance to be dealing with. Ironically,
if you want to leave you won't be allowed to.

It's perverse and disgusting. I strongly recommend speaking to family and
friends and do NOT call the police, ambulance or any other official service.
And whatever you do, you do not call suicide hotlines - they must call the
police if they think you are about to commit suicide so they aren't
confidential, despite what they claim.

------
the_jeremy
Also pro-suicide legalisation, also recommend anything but telling authorities
(hotlines, therapists) about a full suicide plan. Being stuck in a mental
health hold for a week does nothing to help anyone, especially given the
abysmal state of many of these facilities.

~~~
throwaway34985
Even telling psychologists partial plans will cause them to freak out. Here in
Australia they do have professional association guidelines (which boil down to
there must a realistic, specific plan with timing to warrant breaching
privacy), and the Privacy Act has provisions as to when privacy can be
violated (also very narrowly permitted), but you're talking about
psychologists here as opposed to engineers or lawyers. So they will break the
law, you will end up scheduled, and your mental health will end up an order of
magnitude worse than at any point in your life.

I'd suggest if you are suicidal and you have already been seeing a specific
psychologist for a while, the best thing to do is stop seeing that
psychologist as their approach is not offering you hope. Switch to someone
with a completely different treatment modality. Psychologists are as varied in
quality as any other profession, but if you are increasing losing hope and
thinking about suicide, it's time to switch.

~~~
the_jeremy
Sure, I should have been more clear. I meant that you can tell a therapist
that you are having suicidal ideation (thoughts about suicide) without a
problem, as long as it's clear you don't have any specific plans or timelines
to act on them.

I agree that a partial plan could possibly trigger a "better safe than sorry"
approach to putting you in emergency detainment.

~~~
throwaway34985
My experience was I had a full plan, but deliberately avoided disclosing the
legal triggers, expecting the law would apply on two levels: (a) the
psychologist did not meet the threshold to breach privacy and (b) even if
scheduled the legal requirement to only provide treatment in the least
restrictive environment would ensure I am released given I have a demonstrable
level of compliance in the community.

What actually happened was the psychologist violated the law by telling them I
had unusually strong legal knowledge of the Mental Health Act and as such I
would say whatever is required to not be scheduled. So I got scheduled on
information they should not even have, and did not assess the minimally
restrictive criteria competently because they had reason to believe I was
unusually knowledgeable of the legislation.

These days I have a mental health lawyer ready to call the moment these people
look at me the wrong way and I'll send him in. My level of cooperation with
mental health will be zero in the future. At least in NSW the requirements to
be scheduled are not strictly followed, so having a lawyer on retainer is the
easiest way of dealing with these lawless do-gooders.

------
cleandreams
Nobody seems to have read this article although many people seem to identify
with the topic because of their own suicidal feelings. I found the article
very moving and I learned a lot about suicidal illness. The article is
brutally honest. I understood how it could be that a person would not think
about the pain their suicide would cause. I appreciated the amount of
hopelessness and pain the author was in. One thing that is clear is that his
pain is his mother's pain is his sister's pain is his family's pain... It's a
large and complex family system, that has beget this suicidal person. It gave
me a lot of compassion.

------
pdfernhout
See also: Out of the Nightmare: Recovery from Depression and Suicidal Pain by
David Conroy [https://www.amazon.com/Out-Nightmare-Recovery-Depression-
Sui...](https://www.amazon.com/Out-Nightmare-Recovery-Depression-
Suicidal/dp/0595414974/)

"Out of the Nightmare. An all-out assault on the barriers that stand between
you and recovery from depression and suicidal pain. decomposes recovery from
depression into recovery from envy, shame, self-pity, grandiosity, fear,
stigma, social abuse, and the double binds and vicious circles of the
mythology of suicide. A drug-free approach to getting better and staying
better. This book provides counselors with a bold new non-technical framework
that is free from the prejudices that deter the suicidal from seeking help. It
provides those who have lost a loved one to suicide with a broad array of new
conceptual tools to understand the tragedy and to find help for stuck
positions of bereavement. Most importantly, it provides all those who suffer
from depression with hundreds of resources to find their way out of the
nightmare."

A suicide by an employee or within the families of employees touches many
lives and can significantly impact productivity. Along with advice for
suicidal individuals, the book includes suggestion for first responders,
counselors, friends, and those who sadly are survivors of someone else's
suicide. A major focus of the book includes deconstructing harmful ideas
surrounding how people often think about or respond to those who have suicidal
ideation and suggesting a more effective way of thinking about suicide
prevention called the aggregate pain model.

Some key ideas from the book are summarized here:
[https://www.metanoia.org/suicide/index.html](https://www.metanoia.org/suicide/index.html)

"Suicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds resources for coping with
pain. That's all it's about. You are not a bad person, or crazy, or weak, or
flawed, because you feel suicidal. It doesn't even mean that you really want
to die - it only means that you have more pain than you can cope with right
now. If I start piling weights on your shoulders, you will eventually collapse
if I add enough weights... no matter how much you want to remain standing.
Willpower has nothing to do with it. Of course you would cheer yourself up, if
you could. Don't accept it if someone tells you, "That's not enough to be
suicidal about." There are many kinds of pain that may lead to suicide.
Whether or not the pain is bearable may differ from person to person. What
might be bearable to someone else, may not be bearable to you. The point at
which the pain becomes unbearable depends on what kinds of coping resources
you have. Individuals vary greatly in their capacity to withstand pain. When
pain exceeds pain-coping resources, suicidal feelings are the result. Suicide
is neither wrong nor right; it is not a defect of character; it is morally
neutral. It is simply an imbalance of pain versus coping resources. You can
survive suicidal feelings if you do either of two things: (1) find a way to
reduce your pain, or (2) find a way to increase your coping resources. Both
are possible."

One of the fundamental challenges in an organization or society is to
destigmatize asking for help to avoid the classic dilemma those with suicidal
thoughts face when they expect asking for help will only increase their pain
from whatever reactions occur -- such as job loss or being ejected from a
university community. By reconceptualizing suicide as an involuntary action
that occurs when total pain exceeds resources for coping with pain, David
Conroy provides a morally neutral way for organizations and society to think
about suicide prevention in a productive way. Rather than focus mainly on
intervening in a crisis, organizations can rethink their operations to reduce
participant pain and to increase coping resources. This helps everyone in the
organization, not just those who have reached a threshold where pain is very
close to coping resources. Early intervention is much cheaper and more
successful than waiting for a crisis. This model shows how organizations can
approach suicide intervention in hundreds of way. One of those ways is also
making people aware of success stories where individuals overcame depression
and related suicidal thoughts.

Aggregate pain includes physical pain, emotional pain, and social pain.
Reducing pain in any area by even a small amount may bring a person below a
threshold for suicide. Similarly there are many types of coping resources from
interacting with a friend, to going to a funny movie, to receiving adequate
health care, to interacting with a pet. There are also some short-term coping
strategies like denial or drinking which may have long-term negative
consequences that become new sources of pain when done to excess.

More coping methods for transcending depression can be found in books listed
here: [https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-
Organizations...](https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-
Organizations-Reading-List)

(Posted in memory of Robin Rochlin Cooperman -- a good friend from college who
became a psychiatrist to help people who had mental illness and related
challenges. I dearly wish she was still around for many reasons -- including
to discuss such books with.)

~~~
jf
Thank you for posting this.

