
They’re Talking Behind My Back: Remote Workers Feel Unsupported - apress
https://www.wsj.com/articles/theyre-talking-behind-my-back-remote-workers-feel-unsupported-1509541381
======
kemiller
Remote work works best when _everyone_ does it in the organization. Most of
these kinds of complaints come from the fact that a mixed org will tend to
treat remote workers as second class citizens, even with the best intentions.

~~~
falcolas
I agree. Within the same company, I felt much more connected to my co-workers
when there was an no more than two in any given location. On a new team, I'm
the only person remote from the others, and I feel sooo out of the loop.

It's also impacting my ability to network and display technical competence;
It's been... frustrating... to watch someone become the product tech lead
solely because folks could walk up to and interrupt them.

~~~
dogma1138
Being available for your coworkers is as important as pure technical
competency even more so in a corporate environment.

~~~
toomuchtodo
The idea of a raw meritocracy dies quickly when faced with reality.

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drraid0
I'll take more time with my family and a little ostracism over a 80 minute
commute on BART and an open office any day of the week.

~~~
HumbleGamer
Ditto. Im at the same point.

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kemiller2002
We had this problem, so we decided to make everyone be remote part time now.
It forced us to rethink communication on a daily basis, and everyone is much
more cognizant of leaving people out of the loop.

[http://structuredsight.com/2017/07/02/practice/](http://structuredsight.com/2017/07/02/practice/)

~~~
socialist_coder
That is really cool. Forced remote part time. I like it!

Is it still working well for you? How much remote work do employees usually
do?

~~~
kemiller2002
Quite a bit actually, and it works really well for us. It has honestly gotten
to the point where I don't know when most of my staff is in the office. I just
don't worry about it. The communication is so great between things like Slack,
Skype, and even phone calls that being in the same office provides really no
major benefit. (In truth we all like being in the office every once in a
while, because it's nice to get the entire group together, but it's not
necessary.) It really forced us to restructure how we worked for the better,
and people love it too.

When we have code reviews and people aren't in the office, we just do it using
screen sharing, and everyone being out part of the time ensures all of our
requirements for projects are online and available to everyone. One of our
biggest benefits is surrounding the daily stand ups. We have them everyday,
because we like to get together briefly to socialize a little bit and to make
sure that there isn't anything that we really need to discuss, but really we
know everything that is going on before the scrum. With this, people who are
remote don't call in, and this saves us a ton of time and effort. Between
finding a room with a phone and calling into a conference number, we realize
that it's completely not worth it and it's not necessary.

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greedo
Our team is split over two locations; one is the home office, the other is a
smaller company we merged with. That part of the team doesn't have any on-site
management, so they are in effect remote users. They seem to thrive well
without the extra supervision, but they suffer from a lack of visibility from
their immediate reporting chain.

One issue with remote work is that it can be pulled back. Our company used to
have a very friendly policy towards it, and people got used to working remote
for a few days a week. Then there was a change in mid-level mgmt, and boom, no
more remote work. That can be hard to adjust to; no one likes to have a
"benefit" taken away. Our company is now one that tends to focus on the
"optics" of things instead of how they really are, so working outside the
office is detrimental to both career and job-security.

~~~
dudul
Out of curiosity, what reason was given for this policy change? Did you have
any full time remote workers who was forced to relocate or leave?

~~~
maxxxxx
I have seen this at another company and I believe it was due to the fact that
management wasn't very tech savvy. So when projects started to slip the only
thing they could do was to call a lot of status meetings and make sure people
are at the office working visibly. It's hard to judge if a remote worker works
on a problem for two weeks or just does nothing.

~~~
greedo
Exactly. Our company has installed the equivalent of TPS reports so that
middle mgmt can feel good about themselves. They stack rank the teams, and
ticket count and closure is a "vital" metric. If you do something important
that isn't easily measurable (in an automatic fashion), you better be putting
in a lot of face time. Oh, and we have 4 trouble/bug/task tracking systems in
place...

~~~
toomuchtodo
Its never been a better time to job hunt.

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angarg12
This is a real concern for me. I got contacted for a position that sounds
really good, but would require me to relocate to another country.

They give the option to work mostly remote with some travel, but I'm concerned
that remote work may impact my career, future promotions, etc.

Anyone got any experience with this?

~~~
itake
been remote for about 2 years.

career impacts have been:

    
    
      - no raises.  When I left SF, they didn't adjust my comp. Because I pay no state and very low federal taxes (FEIE) adding (~$30k after tax) into my pocket at no cost to my employer and because my cost of living is lower, no raises.
    
      - promotions within this company I think will be limited for me.
    
      - if your comp isn't adjusted to your city, then it can be more difficult to find another remote position where you live.  Companies tend to price you at the city you live in, not the value you provide.
    

benefits:

    
    
      - co-working spaces mean I can network with other people at other companies.
    
      - no commute means more time to work on side projects or personal goals.
    
      - less "water cooler" distractions.  I can turn off Slack and just focus on coding. makes it easier to get things done.

~~~
dozzie
> Companies tend to price you at the city you live in, not the value you
> provide.

People tend to price a glass of water at how expensive drinks around the place
are, not the value this glass provides (crucial for life). Do you find this
irrational or otherwise wrong?

~~~
itake
Remote companies frame the comp problem as: we want to be fair to our
employees such that our dev in SF doesn't feel "poor" compared to our devs in
middle America.

My opinion is living in an expensive city is a life choice. Just like choosing
to purchase a BMW or a new home. You should not be paid more because you own a
BMW and your co-worker drives a 10 yr old Toyota.

I have been told no by several companies when they found out I live in abroad
and make "SF money", because it wouldn't be fair to their existing remote
staff despite having the budget if I lived in SF.

~~~
cannonedhamster
That kind of policy is stupid. Is it fair to pay people for more experience in
coding if the younger person has more experience in that literal language?
Life isn't about being fair it's about making sure everyone has the same
opportunity to succeed. If they aren't willing or able to negotiate that is on
them. I negotiated/job hopped my way from below 30k to six figures within 5
years. What your compensation is shouldn't matter to what someone else is
being comped. What about all the snacks, parties, etc you're not invited to?
Do they factor that in?

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Uhhrrr
I work in a different office from the rest of my team, and you definitely have
to be more proactive about communication. Otherwise you slowly get further out
of the loop.

~~~
Boothroid
There's a danger some of this is intentional. Being remote can generate
resentment in those without the perk, and efforts to level the score. You can
only accept being told 'oh, we just happened to bump into each other and talk
about it in person but you weren't here' so many times before you start to
recognise a pattern.

~~~
Uhhrrr
I haven't gotten that, although it's perhaps because I'm just in another
office. But I think it helps that the rest of the team is small (3 other
people), and we do scrum and have scheduled meetings for design issues.

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dep_b
Remote for a few years. Some organizations cannot get anything done without
people physically getting up from their seats and kicking the seat of the
person that's blocking. People will simply do whatever the most annoying or
dangerous person coaxes them into doing.

This doesn't work well as a remote peer as they know you'll never be within
punching distance, can't fire them and E-mail messages and IM's can always be
ignored. But this kind of organization actually also never worked really well
for me being inside an office like that as well, to be honest.

If all or most of the technical staff works remote then people tend to work
together the best. Still, sometimes I have no idea what's actually happening
in the company while I'm churning out features. And perhaps for the better.

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technofiend
At one time you could sit in the middle as a 1099 or W-2 subcontractor; sure
you didn't necessarily get a raise unless negotiated and promotions were
unlikely due to contractors typically not leading teams unless they too were
contractors. But it also removed you from all the office politics, employee
reviews and the general hassle of being full time, and you got 100% of your
equity from any company up front: they paid by the hour for every hour worked,
no more no less. Much better (IMHO) than throwing the dice and hoping for a
buyout or IPO on options that 9 times out of 10 are worthless.

Unfortunately due to misuse of contract labor on both sides the IRS cracked
down to the point where it's now rarely feasible.

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pinewurst
I've been a remote worker for about 5 years now and I really enjoy the
flexibility (and the savings in commute time and energy). There are times when
I've felt alienated, but I don't think that would be any better in the office
given the geographically dispersed nature of my organizations. I greatly dread
the prospect of returning to a butts-in-seats position.

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pmoriarty
At some companies you're likely to be passed over for promotions if you work
remotely.

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PatientTrades
I would happily work from home in exchange for feeling unsupported, Man some
people just don't know how good they have it...

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delhiitem
lets face it, there are problems with all company cultures. Remote has its
problems too. Interacting with a lot of people just inheritably presents
problems.

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ajr0
for some reason the usual bypass of wsj is not working, can someone assist?

I tried the ole paste link into google trick.

~~~
jasonkostempski
This is exactly why I've blocked all wsj links in my browser, unfortunately,
the add on I use doesn't work on mobile Firefox yet. Can't HN just ban these?
It's clear they don't want nonpaying users, we should respect that wish.

~~~
com2kid
> Can't HN just ban these?

If we are going to decry the loss of quality journalism due to the loss of
funds to pay for newsrooms, shouldn't we be supportive of those outlets who
are unafraid to ask for quality?

To make an analogy, people here are free to do Show HN's with commercial
products. Apps don't have to be free (and comments often complain about free
apps that don't value users!)

In other words, if the WSJ is consistently providing high quality content, why
not pay for it?

~~~
Aloha
Because I also read the Washington Post, NY Times, LA Times, Seattle Times,
USA Today, Christian Science Monitor, and others - its unreasonably for me to
have to get a subscription to each, while I'd quite happily pay maybe 10-20c
per article to read.

~~~
techsupporter
Why is it unreasonable? You are, after all, using the product those outlets
provide.

~~~
sxates
Imagine if you had to buy a whole album every time you wanted to hear a song.

~~~
vertex-four
You used to. People did. Now most people stream on Spotify for free, and the
hardcore listeners buy albums, and practically nobody buys singles.

~~~
Aloha
That made sense with the distribution medium of the time - much as a newspaper
subscription made sense for a dead-tree medium of distribution - we've not
been there for a long time.

~~~
vertex-four
Perhaps. Though you'd think there's been more than enough research to show
that people don't buy individual articles. People don't even really buy
individual movies any more, in my experience.

Anyway, Blendle exists now, so we'll see in a couple of years whether this
actually does become the standard way of reading the news. I somehow doubt it.

