
Why Continuing to Work Is Good for a Man’s Health - _of
https://features.wearemel.com/ill-retire-when-i-m-dead-why-continuing-to-work-is-good-for-a-man-s-health-c3053052d136#.2lm80j3kp
======
andyjdavis
>“You go from working 50, 60, 70 hours a week to zero,” Moen says. “And it
very much affects your identity. Who am I? For men, the answer usually is
their job.”

I feel like this is a problem our whole life however it is only once we retire
that we are forced to confront it. Until then we are able to avoid dealing
with a lack of fulfilling activities outside of work, limited social
connections and a weak sense of identity outside of work by simply working
more. When we retire that coping mechanism goes away and you are left with no
hobbies, a weak social network and a weak self image.

Personally, I strongly recommend trying cutting your work commitments to
something like 20 hours per week. Do this for a year or so. It will give you a
chance to realize that many of the things you previously did whenever you got
the chance (sleeping in etc) become extremely boring when you can do them all
the time.

After a while you will likely start to crave some sense of structure and
accomplishment and the sooner you start filling the void outside of your work
the better. Having a meaningful existence outside of your job will make you
happier both now and in retirement.

~~~
tajen
I recognize I'm in this situation, but I have no idea what one could do to
make a life meaningful, outside of good work or raising great kids, hopefully
with a loving partner. I have already tried many things: Living in 3 other
countries for 4 years in total (but I was missing family and friends support),
being self-employed (I do B2B software like P.McKenzie), learning to dance (3
times, but I feel crap at it), music, judo, hundreds hours of volunteering
(social, like activities for kids or refugees or mid-suburbs, or climate) but
at one point it feels like cheap exploitation of underpaid workers, ... My
sister climbs summits or goes to the end of herself (6000km biking anyone?)
but I don't see the point. Those experiences never made me feel happy or
fulfilled with my life (I'm 33). Only having a girlfriend once fulfilled me
(until she dumped me like "you don't have leadership with your life") but you
didn't count "partner" among things that fulfill your free time, did you?
Let's be honest, I find life a bit boring ;) So what do you mean with
"structure and accomplishment"? Do you have examples?

~~~
cko
I'm like you, but I'm 30 and don't want a family or kids. And travel sounds
incredibly boring. I've been investing 90% of my income the past five years.
When the article or any coworker says "enjoy your hard earned money" it makes
no sense to me. What does spending money have to do with happiness? And yet,
more money is all I want. If you gave me a billion dollars tomorrow my first
thought would be "how do I turn that into two billion?" I might become a monk.
Serious. Ever thought of that?

~~~
jventura
There are some studies out there (too lazy now to go search for any) that
mentions that money is related to hapiness up to a point that it can get you
out of poverty and make you stop thinking about it.. Then, the relation is
mostly none.

Seriously, what would you do with those 2 billion?

~~~
mastry
That research has been called into question [0]. In my opinion it's like
anything else...there is no absolute answer. Some people will be happier with
more money. Some won't.

[0]
[http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2013/...](http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2013/04/subjective%20well%20being%20income/subjective%20well%20being%20income.pdf)

------
jaggederest
As they say in the article, I think many people approach retirement as a
cessation.

From what I've seen of my own parents, I hope that retirement for me will be
more a change of _what_ I'm working on, and _how_ I work, rather than whether
or not I work.

I'm also trying to make those changes now - working on what I want to work on,
at a reasonable pace, at the level and times I'm interested. I'd quite happily
keep doing this forever.

It's a little frustrating that we reserve "living well and enjoying the fruits
of your labor" for aged people - I'd rather enjoy it while I'm still
relatively young and healthy, and mix it into my life rather than setting it
aside as a separate thing.

~~~
brandon272
I view retirement mostly as financial freedom. I have every intention of
working after retirement as I get personal enjoyment out of doing what I do. I
just haven't decided what "work" will look like.

~~~
ergothus
This. I am baffled by friends and family that talk about how they couldn't
retire because what would they do? My response is to list the many, many
things I want to do that I can't because I 'have to work': read more, learn
new languages (spoken & computer), take up the piano/guitar, try new games
(board, tabletoprpg, computer), write, program, etc.

The only reason I ever get bored is because I don't have the time, resources,
and/or other people to do what I want. The thought of not having to rely on a
work schedule to provide necessary resources sounds wonderful, not
threatening.

~~~
maroonblazer
My problem is similar but different.

The last couple of vacations I've taken have been staycations. Even though I
have many hobbies and interests - several musical instruments, writing music,
drawing, dabbling in code, reading - not having the structure of a job and
expectations of others weighing on me to 'be productive' I procrastinated
quite a lot. I frequently felt anxious and unfulfilled. I took this experience
as a glimpse into what retirement might be like.

In retirement I think I'll need to create a schedule for myself that includes
having others depending on me to 'show up'. E.g. doing volunteer teaching,
etc.

~~~
cableshaft
I've noticed it's really difficult to work on side projects also when you're
in between jobs (especially if you don't have much saved up) because the
looming threat of financial ruin never lets you forget it, and you just get
too distracted by it that it's hard to be productive even though you have so
much more time, and every moment you spend on side projects your brain goes
"you could be putting this energy into looking for a new job right now."

I know that's probably different than your staycations, but it's for that
reason that I don't think I will be as bad at working on my personal projects
once I've retired (if I ever can retire).

------
matt_wulfeck
I'm reading "Letters From a Self-made Merchant to his Son"[0] and this
particular passage stuck out at me (keep in mind the author/merchant was very
rich for his time and ran the business):

> I hear a good deal about men who won’t take vacations, and who kill
> themselves by overwork, but it’s usually worry or whiskey. It’s not what a
> man does during working-hours, but after them, that breaks down his health.
> A fellow and his business should be bosom friends in the office and sworn
> enemies out of it. A clear mind is one that is swept clean of business at
> six o’clock every night and isn’t opened up for it again until after the
> shutters are taken down next morning.

I think this really is something that's lost in our time. I know that 90% of
the people reading this comment take their laptops home with them after work.

[0]
[http://www.gutenberg.org/files/21959/21959-h/21959-h.htm](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/21959/21959-h/21959-h.htm)

------
jasonkester
A better takeaway from this is to make sure that your Job is not the most
important thing in your life.

If your Job is the thing you do as little of as needed so that you can afford
to spend time doing the really important things that give your life meaning,
then having your Job go away isn't anywhere near as devastating as this
article suggests. It's only because people tend to put so much of their
identity into their career that this is an issue at all.

I "Retired" from the 9-5 world last year, and my quality of life has seen a
noticeable spike ever since. I have always prioritized climbing and other
outdoor pursuits, travel and (more recently) raising kids over working, so
dropping work down to near zero just let me turn all those other knobs up to
where I think they should naturally belong. There's still a "work" knob in the
form of the product businesses that bring in my income, and it too is dialed
way down to where it belongs. Just enough to keep the mind sharp and diverted
with a few hours of geekery each week.

So the key, in my mind, is to arrange things so that you honestly don't miss
your job once it comes time to give it up. It's cool to work hard and all. But
there's a lot more to life than just work. If you wait until you're 65 then
are suddenly forced to go find out what those other things are, it's going to
be a lot less fun than if you start introducing them at age 25 and have them
ticking away ready to take center stage as soon as the opportunity arises.

------
gozur88
I wonder if this article isn't putting the cart before the horse. If you're
not getting just older but also _sicker_ it gets harder and harder to drag
yourself to work each day.

Or, to put it another way, maybe you're working at 75 because you're not sick
instead of not being sick because you're working.

~~~
cableshaft
I'm in my thirties, and already have some mild chronic health issues that make
me not really want to go to work some days. I imagine at 75 it's going to be
nearly impossible to get me to go in to work most days. Hopefully everyone
lives 24/7 in a VR pod by then.

------
nevster
I'm thinking I'll code till the day I die. So much cool tech is always coming
out - so much to play with and invent! I also have very time consuming hobbies
- reading, playing video games, pen and paper role playing games, board games.

~~~
ams6110
I don't know if everyone is this way, but at 50 I am losing a little of the
starry-eyed excitement. I've seen a lot of the same ideas come around again
and again as a new great thing. And yet the pace of change is so fast, if you
try to stay current you feel like you never really become an expert in
anything. You get jaded.

If and when I "retire" I would not see myself not working, but I do think I
might do somthing completely different and new.

I could see walking away from computer tech entirely. In fact that idea is
pretty attractive, honestly. I'm old enough to clearly remember the days
before the internet, before mobile phones, before being constantly connected
to everything 24x7. When you would leave the house or office, nobody would be
able to get in touch with you and you could do what you wanted to do without
interruption or distraction. It was nice.

~~~
somethingsimple
I'm 28 and have lost all the starry-eyed excitement :(

I was top of class in college, then advanced in huge strides in the first
years of my career; now I just want to go home and read a non-technical book.

I might be burnt out.

~~~
andyjdavis
Entirely possible. When I was about your age I wound up taking off and
teaching English to little kids in Thailand. That was a great experience that
involved a refreshing amount of time away from a computer.

I was able to pick up my career afterwards easily enough. I actually wound up
working on education related software so my little teaching experience may
have even helped.

The only lasting (sort of) negative was that I met so many people in Thailand
who were living dramatically different lives that the idea of living out the
rest of my days in a cubicle become less palatable.

~~~
dcw303
I did the same at the same age as well, except I was teaching English in
Japan. After only a few months of that, I had a burning desire to be back in a
coding career, and to be as far away from eikaiwas as possible.

If you've never worked outside the tech industry, you would be _amazed_ at how
good we get it.

~~~
andyjdavis
Lol. Very true. As much as I enjoyed teaching 6-8 year old and essentially
playing games and singing songs all day having to clock in and out, a strict
dress code and having to complete vast volumes of dead tree paperwork wasn't
super fun. Especially when compared to software companies I have worked for.
Flexible hours, free snacks, and wear whatever you want.

------
p4wnc6
I am only 30 but have been unemployed for about 15 months, due to a
significant family health and legal situation.

I can definitely say that not working, even if other life needs are met, has
had a hugely adverse affect. I definitely need to feel proud of what I am
working on to feel whole and well.

Ceasing to work and then resuming a new job search is also demoralizing. Most
people will not even consider hiring you unless you are already working, even
if you can ace the code tests, point to open source or publicly available work
samples, and explain your tech skills in extreme detail.

Few people seem to earnestly care what you can actually do technically.
Ironically, I've found it's the ones who are hyperfocused on things like
HackerRank tests who are _least_ likely to care. Sure, you aced our HackerRank
test, but after we thought about the fact you're not already employed we just
decided no.

I've even had recruiters and hiring managers get irrationally angry at me via
email feedback or in phone interviews just for being unemployed, like they are
personally mad at me that they have to come up with a reason to reject me.
Even when I explain it has been an unavoidable and quite severe family
problem, they are still mad.

In a few cases it was even borderline verbal abuse. One recruiter took a very
condescending tone with me and said something like, "it sounds like you don't
even want to work" when I told him some of the things I was searching for in
my next position. Then he proceeded to pressure me on several jobs that were
clearly not at all appropriate for me.

It's incredibly demoralizing, and I am even quite good at what I do. Just
tonight I am hacking away at some stuff involving integrating the Postgres C
API with the NumPy C API so that I can easily call NumPy array functions on
Postgres arrays, as a C extension. It involves knowing a lot about CPython,
NumPy, the Postgres C API, Postgres arrays, and a mix of other stuff. My plan
is to ultimately compare it with MonetDB, which has tight integration with
NumPy arrays natively (whereas, for plpythonu functions, Postgres arrays are
converted to Python lists, which is horrible).

This is not easy stuff, very advanced CPython stuff and I feel it shows I'm a
fast learner too (I've only been using Python for a few years).

Doesn't matter. I don't have a job, so nobody looking to hire for the
positions I'm seeking will even consider it.

It makes it very hard and depressing to continue trying (seemingly in vain) to
keep my coding skills sharp.

~~~
Kluny
You've got to learn to avoid telling them that you're unemployed. Best way is
to work for yourself. Assign yourself a project, pay yourself in equity, and
work on it for a few hours each day. Rehearse telling people about it in such
a way that it sounds like a legit job. That will be easier if you take it as
seriously as a legit job.

~~~
p4wnc6
In my case, I was required to relocate from a large east coast city back to my
family's home in the rural Midwest, where I perform functions to care for a
family circumstance and they take up effectively a full-time job's worth of
hours every week. It's all I can do to continue exercising and cooking healthy
meals. "Working" a full-time side project that yields no short-term income is
wholly and entirely physically intractable in my current situation.

Besides that, it would be very dishonest of me to downplay or fudge the
explanation of my current period of unemployment. The family problem has been
severe and required me to leave from a job, dedicate huge amount of time and
money, and many other sacrifices. The only reason I could consider taking a
new job is that the income would allow me to pay for people to take over the
care duties I am currently personally performing. So the exact, real reasons
for my unemployment are actually very relevant, important things for my next
employer to understand and fundamentally be OK with.

~~~
Kluny
Ah, I see. I think that still counts as work. If you've been saying "I've been
off work" in interviews, that might not work, but it would be just as true to
say "I've been working for my family."

~~~
p4wnc6
Yes, I do say this. Obviously you can't just vaguely say "I've been working"
\-- they will ask exactly what "work" you have been doing, which is when I
explain just the bare minimum details of my family situation necessary for an
employer.

Most people interviewing me express a lot of compassion, say it's admirable to
see someone sticking to help their family as I have, and then promptly reject
me for not currently being employed.

~~~
slantedview
I don't know why this happens, but some thoughts:

a) it's complete and utter bullshit

b) any company that rejects skilled people for petty reasons doesn't really
want or deserve skilled people

c) our industry has a lot of growing up to do, which unfortunately, is a
reflection of its leadership

------
jeffdavis
I view retirement (distant future for me) as a chance to do unappreciated
work. Does the world need a new birdhouse? Who cares. When I retire, if I want
to spend 100 hours on a birdhouse, then I can, and I don't need to justify it
to anyone.

I'll even say it's worth $5000 because I spent so much time on it, and put it
up for sale on eBay. If nobody buys it, then who cares?

But sit around and do whatever the default thing is (watch TV, etc.): No
thanks.

------
ChuckMcM
I'm not sure why "retire" is equated with sitting on the porch doing nothing.
Perhaps that is the image that some folks hold but I know lots and lots of
people who fund their own existence through passive income (savings, etc) and
do all sorts of interesting things. I need a different word for that state,
perhaps self employed might be more accurate since at that point you are
paying your own "salary".

~~~
girvo
My Grandfather retired at 45, after becoming the head-banker for a large bank
in the north island of New Zealand. Got his gold Rolex and everything. He then
proceeded to start, fund and get involved in a number of businesses, owns
race-horses, has a massive social circle and is still going strong at 75. He's
my idol, for good reason :)

------
reasonattlm
Studies of health and activity have started to use accelerometers over the
past decade. This has shown that even very modest levels of activity - on the
order of washing dishes and puttering around the garden - have a meaningful
correlation with health. This is causing something of a rethinking of the
lower end of the dose-response curve for exercise.

So when looking at the correlations between retirement and health, I'm
inclined to think that physical activity level has a lot to do with it.

------
up_and_up
This literally just happened to my Dad. He went from working fulltime to being
retired. He has completely lost his sense of purpose in life, mopes around, is
becoming depressed. I feel bad but its also kinda pathetic. I mean c'mon dude
you have decades of time to do whatever the fuck you want to.

To me this is a symptom of men who do not find any other purpose in their life
besides working and providing. We need diversification of interests and
activities for our long-term wellbeing.

~~~
sosuke
I hope you're trying to do something to light a fire for him. This happened to
a relative of mine and I still am trying to get him into more hobbies. He has
more free time than he knows what to do with.

~~~
up_and_up
I have been trying for years but he lives far away so its hard to encourage
beyond words and trying to pay for activities etc.

------
ensiferum
I despise the use of the word "work" here. Basically any activity that you
find rewarding and that keeps your body and mind moving will have the same
effect.

I.e. getting out of the bed and doing stuff helps you not to become a senile
cretin. It doesn't have to be _work_

~~~
tluyben2
Indeed. But for some reason people connect work with self worth. I have that
the same with my hobbies but apparently a lot of people do not; it needs to be
work to get that same feeling.

~~~
digi_owl
The proverbial "protestant work ethic". It may not be codified, but it seems
to exist to some degree.

------
xirdstl
This is a concern for me as I consider "early" retirement. I'm not sure what I
would do with all that time.

I took a bit of a sabbatical a few years ago and ran into some of the problems
described in the article. After a few months, it did have some pretty negative
effects on my mental health.

~~~
bpchaps
Find a problem to solve in your local community and do what it takes to fix
it, no matter how small. You'll learn, do good and get involved with your
community more.

I recently took six months off to try and solve some local problems. There
hasn't been a dull moment. :)

~~~
wonder_er
Please expand on some of what you're working on! I've been thinking about just
this sort of "work" to start dipping my toes into, don't quite know where to
start.

~~~
bpchaps
A lot of it is me getting annoyed at something that certainly impacts many
others. It's gone down some interesting paths. What I've found in general is
that the small things not only add up, but they help find where the root
causes are. So, if you can help fix the small things and enough people do it,
the better the world becomes in general.

Things like, "Why has that lamp been out for a month?" can become very
interesting if you pursue them to a certain depth. :)

~~~
rosstex
You sound exactly like my mom, and I mean that in an incredibly positive way.
She has fixed so many issues in public facilities just by picking up the phone
and persisting. She can expedite anything, and she'll go to great lengths to
help others. Her social network is massive as well. She hasn't worked in
years, but I have insane respect for her and I envy her a lot!

~~~
bpchaps
Hah, thanks. She sounds like she's had a lot more success than I have, though.
:)

------
d99kris
I'm not sure it's related at all, but anecdotally I found myself often falling
sick after completing a crunch period at work, or taking a 1-2 week off from
work. Nothing serious, but a cold/fever typically.

As if being busy forces the body to not allow any sickness.

~~~
withdavidli
Let down effect: [http://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-
wellness/article...](http://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-
wellness/articles/2016-01-06/the-let-down-effect-why-you-might-feel-bad-after-
the-pressure-is-off)

In psych class we were given the analogy of people getting sick right after
mid-term/finals (after a period of sustained high levels of stress)

------
WalterBright
Some years back, 60 Minutes interviewed a research chemist who was over 100,
tottering around in his lab. They asked him why he didn't retire, and he
replied that research chemistry was fun.

~~~
fuzzfactor
If you're the kind that has breakthroughs with equipment or chemicals,
sometimes it takes more than a decade of use for this to occur.

Does seem to get exponentially more fun each decade, so many more
breakthroughs to be made, so little time.

------
ovt
This is certainly a big issue. In the comments, I see of course how it's so
vital for all of us, and yet our problems and our advice...varies because
we're all different and it's hard to express what we are and what we love in
two paragraphs. We can't help but talk past each other somewhat with
strangers.

Maybe what is best to take away from advice is less the specifics and more to
take heart that others want to communicate and share and help.

For my part, I'll say that "work" as such is not the place to seek meaning
unless...unless it's right there for you, isn't hurting anything or anyone,
etc.

------
firebones
FWIW, I started this thread
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12013621](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12013621)
with the hope that we could collect some good examples of how people stay busy
after retirement.

A great example for me is Don Melton, formerly of Safari and WebKit, who
tweets routinely about his work on video transcoding [1]. I follow him on
Twitter (@donmelton) and he gives me hope for any future retirement I might be
lucky enough to have.

[1]
[https://github.com/donmelton/video_transcoding](https://github.com/donmelton/video_transcoding)

------
hordeallergy
Developers are mostly anonymous among the millions - they have no identity
there. This is the point of stickers on laptops, as with music shirts, a
shortcut to identity.

------
gerbilly
I always say that it's best to retire every few years.

If I wait till I'm 65 (or 70 now) will I be be able to mountain bike, surf,
rock climb and do all the other activities I enjoy?

If I wait till I'm 65, I'll be too broken to do any of that.[1]

[1] I know that my interests will change by the time I'm 65, but that doesn't
mean those interests aren't worth pursuing now, while I do enjoy them.

~~~
CuriouslyC
If you take care of your body there is no reason you can't mountain bike,
climb or surf at 65. I'm willing to bet there are people over 65 doing all
those things much better than you are currently able to.

~~~
gerbilly
> I'm willing to bet there are people over 65 doing all those things much
> better than you are currently able to.

Of course this is true, but my chances of being fit enough to engage in those
activities at 65 go down with the passage of time, and from many factors
outside of my control (accidents, major illnesses, something else...)

But there's a more subtle point. By the time I'm 65 I may not want to surf or
mountain bike, but I do now.

I need to retire the 20 year old me, the 30 year old me, the 40 year old me
.... so that I can enjoy some freedom at each stage of my life.

By the time I'm 65, I literally won't be the same person anymore.

~~~
heartsucker
Then decide right now that you want to be fit enough 30 years from now to
mountain bike <insert local singletrack here>. What does that take? Probably
the ability to pedal a bike with a heart rate of 150 for 3 hours. What does
that take? You going out and riding a bike for 3 hours per day 2-3 times per
week, every week until then. There ya go.

Not saying don't take the time to enjoy life now, but don't sell your future
self short. Especially on fitness. I feel like it's "ok" to be unfit after 35
the way it's "ok" to be bad at math. Like somehow society agreed that both of
those just don't matter.

~~~
mike4ty4
The real problem is we have mechanized so much. Granted, machines can let us
do so many things that would be utterly impossible without them, but the
problem is we've allowed them to _substitute_ our natural labor and not to
just _extend_ it.

------
DominikR
Continuing to work is probably good for a man's health if he has no (physical)
activities he enjoys and no or very few friends. I agree with this.

That men end up in such a situation is probably due to the fact that too many
of us focus obsessively on a single relationship to one person and then give
up in the process their social life, their activities and hobbies.

And when the relationship ends for whatever reason you'll have nothing left in
your life. That seems dangerous to me.

Instead I try hard to keep my social network alive and meet new people just as
hard as I try to keep my relationship alive.

I believe this is what most women are doing anyways. It's also telling that
this article is only about men. It's as if men are following subconsciously
some kind of misguided role model that will get them to a point where it is
most likely even better to continue working into their 70ties or 80ties than
retiring.

------
JustSomeNobody
It's been forever ago, but I recall someone making one of those jokes that are
not really. He asked, "What do men do when they retire? They die!"

------
ww520
Continue to work on your terms is good for your health.

------
chadcmulligan
most people work hard for many hours a week, give up lots of stuff, so they
can retire. The trouble is doing this means you give up having a life, and so
when you retire you have nothing else. What's even worse is if you do this,
then your health suffers. I don't know how many people i've known who do this
and then get really angry that they're retired but don't have the health to do
the things they always waited for.

Me I work a reasonable number of hours have holidays and breaks, I'm middle
aged. I'm not planning to retire, in many ways I sort of am. I do the work I
like, have people around me I want to keep. Look after my health, know what my
kids are doing. I'm lucky that I can do the work I like, and get paid for it,
but I've made choices to avoid the soul sucking super highly paid stuff. I'm
pleased with my choices, I'd recommend them to anyone younger.

Saying this, there are times I've worked hard, and times I've had in between.
Just working then retiring, then dying sucks imho

------
k__
I think it is sad that so many people grow up without learning what to do with
their time besides working.

------
amelius
> Why Continuing to Work Is Good for a Man’s Health

This title strikes me as overly sexist.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
In your experience do you find retiring women equally struggling to adjust?

In part in the UK it may be that men have to work until later in life but it
appears to me that men struggle much more than women with old-age retirement.
That's based on observations of my parents and their group of friends, a
disproportionate number of whom were teachers.

