
Ask: Has Microsoft spent your trust - davidgrenier
Microsoft has spent the little trust they had earned from me with this KB in particular: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;support.microsoft.com&#x2F;en-us&#x2F;kb&#x2F;3035583<p>No matter if I hide it from the Windows Update list,  it comes back as it just did.<p>I ruined one installation with this shady update and I&#x27;ve started checking every single update something I used not to do in the past.
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meric
Microsoft has not spent my trust.

I was born in a Mac OS household. By the time I was born, my parents used
Apple II clones and Macintoshes for over a decade. I have used Macintosh my
whole life, except for the time before I was computer literate.

There was a time when I played Lord of the Realms on hand-me-down Windows 3.1
greyscale laptop I got for free in 2005, and a time when I played Age of
Empires on another hand-me-down Pentium I desktop I bought for $99 in 1999.
Those were the best times. I also used PowerPoint during primary school and
high school.

Having no other experience with Microsoft software, I cannot emphatically say
Microsoft has spent my trust.

On the other hand, I have a huge degree of trust in Apple software, which, I
must say, has been slowly eroding in the years since the passing of Steve
Jobs.

------
duncan_bayne
A long, long time ago:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish)

------
Artlav
Quite a while ago. There never was any alternative as comfortable as the GUI
tools people make of Windows, so i kept putting it off for a while.

But somewhere around the start of the Win 10 malware i decided to bite the
bullet and moved my work environment to Linux for good.

Looking at where MS was going it would have happened anyway, so better sooner
than later.

------
chrisbennet
Kb3035583: _Update installs Get Windows 10 app in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7
SP1_

Yes, they spent my trust. I switched my settings so updates aren't installed
automatically because now I can't trust them not to perform some unwanted
upgrade. Running "Never10" (disables Win10 update) seems to have fixed the
immediate problem but not the lost trust.

------
sirn
I'm actually OK with Windows 10 (with Telemetry off), but still think the GWX
overstepped the line. I'm sure they started the program out of good will (make
people aware that you can upgrade), but the later practice is nothing but
malice.

However, my little bit of trust in Microsoft was spent after I bought their
hardware, in particular the still-running Surface Pro 3 Battery-gate[1] (I'm
the person who started the thread in Microsoft Answer forums.) Microsoft lied
about battery replacement cost, keep treating that the battery problem didn't
existed, and insist it's a $560 replacement instead of the promised $200. I'm
lucky that media outlet picked this up otherwise I probably won't even get the
"we're aware of the issue" response.

That pretty much stop me from ever thinking about being their customer again,
for anything ever.

[1]: [https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/73079/surface-
pro-3s-simpl...](https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/73079/surface-
pro-3s-simplo-batteries-responsible-microsofts-newest-surface-headache)

~~~
bwackwat
"Telemetry off"

Haha... Right.

------
Piskvorrr
Yes. The GWX program, in my opinion, is malware (especially in its blatant
disregard for lack of consent); the fact that it's the OS vendor pushing such
stuff makes matters _worse_ , not "okay".

(I'm not going to recount the man-hours and lost revenue we got from "admit
it, you know you want WinX, and we'll give it to you NOW; it's not like you
actually _use_ the computers for anything")

------
romanovcode
Not really, I also don't get what's the big deal about forcing you to upgrade
to Win10. It seems that some people just cannot be satisfied no matter what
they do. WinXP lockdown = bad, automatic (and free) upgrades = bad. Than what
is good?

I use both Windows and Mac. I have no problem with both of them. Also, C# and
VS rocks.

~~~
Artlav
The big deal is that it does not ask whether you want to upgrade or not. It
just did, whenever it damn pleases, regardless of whether you have work to do
or whether your computer/work environment can handle it.

That's the trust-killing dick move, not the Win 10 itself.

------
RUG3Y
I tried out Windows 10. I lasted 5 days, I think. I signed in to a Microsoft
account, and the password on my PC was changed without my permission. That
password was only saved in Lastpass. It's 16 digits of random characters. I
eventually accessed my computer and immediately reverted to Windows 7.

I still haven't switched to Windows 10 on my home PC. I won't use Windows for
anything work related but I need it for gaming. The day Linux is good enough
for gaming, I'll say goodbye to Microsoft forever.

~~~
anonbanker
if that's all that's keeping you from linux, install Windows in KVM/Qemu and
use GPU passthrough for graphics. full-speed gaming in a linux-owned sandbox
will change your life.

~~~
RUG3Y
I'll have to look into that setup. Thanks.

------
brudgers
If I didn't have a smartphone, I suppose it's theoretically possible the
Windows 10 upgrade could be my greatest privacy/anonymity concern. That theory
however depends on a a universe in which I never browsed the web with cookies
enabled, never played Flash content that I wouldn't want to watch with my
mother, and never typed anything into the Mountain View company's search box.

In this universe, I actually have less concern about Microsoft doing something
creepy with my keystrokes than I do about Canonical doing so. I run Ubuntu and
it wants to send my keystrokes to Amazon and whichever search engine has the
current paid placement in Unity. At least with Microsoft it's not continuous
direct monetization.

If Windows 10 was a big concern, I wouldn't install it or run it on any of my
computers. But that's just me. I run Ubuntu for other reasons. The machines
I've upgraded to Windows 10 have had most of the crap turned up except for the
peer to peer upgrades. It's right there in the install.

~~~
Piskvorrr
"But everyone and their dog is doing the same" is just a sophisticated synonym
for "meh." If everyone jumped off a bridge, would that make it okay for each
of the participants?

Plus, the "privacy and anonymity" angle is just one of the facets;
"unconsented install of whatever" goes beyond privacy (availability, anyone?).

------
codeonfire
A while back. It was fairly clear to me that they thought they were going to
herd everyone into a walled garden with their surface/ windows 8 RT strategy
which obviously did not work. They had planned to muddle the market so
customers would accidently buy an RT table instead of a full PC tablet. RT
tablets could only install from an app store. That didn't really work and
about that time is when Ballmer said fuck it and handed the company over to
people who have no comprehension of western ideals about what is culturally
acceptable when it comes to privacy. Original Microsoft was built from an
environment that grew up with the fourth amendment, a valid functioning legal
system, etc. Current Microsoft culture is wholly international and reflects
the lack of privacy culture, civil rights, and government restraint in many
countries represented in large numbers at Microsoft.

~~~
WorldMaker
The RT tablets were created because ARM processors were the only ones at the
time hitting the benchmarks for tablet power consumption and form factor. It
was entirely a play to get Intel to spend more money on x86-compatible tablet
and mobile processors and it worked. The lockdown on the RT tablets was the
simple basics of different processor architecture and very few Windows
applications with working ARM builds.

------
Sylos
For me their new privacy policy was already enough. A company, which actively
worked with the NSA in the past, asking me to sign a document which would
allow them to access any of my personal data whenever they have a "good faith
belief" that doing so is necessary. What could possibly go wrong?

~~~
DKnoll3
Well, glad you asked.

The part that goes wrong is that you don't have to view a Privacy Policy
behind a tiny poorly colored hyperlink before clicking "I Agree".

------
ankurdhama
Few years ago I bought Windows 8.1 from some online store. Used the activation
key, worked fine, after few months needed to format the system and reinstall
windows. Activation key won't work anymore, called the MS support, told them
the key, found out that the key was from some "student/education program" and
is no longer valid... WTF.

For last 2 years I have been using macOS (osx) and no crap of activation there
and most importantly once you understand the abstractions of UNIX you wouldn't
want to use any other architecture :)

I guess some major problem with Windows is the business model of OEM around
the OS.

~~~
TheAdamist
Maybe your issue should be with the online store who sold you a bad key? I
don't see what microsoft has to do with this.

The police coming to take away a stolen macbook after you buy it from a dodgy
site is going to make you mad at apple?

~~~
ankurdhama
My point is that they MS business model is responsible for these problems. Yes
the store is selling keys that are not meant for selling but the whole key
thing is in the place because of the business model. There are ways to figure
out that the a macbook is stolen and you can avoid it but how are you going to
figure out if the key will give you problems later before using the key?

------
tinus_hn
My trust in Microsoft was always limited because they have been behaving like
crooks for as long as I remember. They have stooped to new lows though with
the "Get Windows X" program and even more with Windows 10 itself. I do not
trust them at all anymore. I actively avoid handling my personal data on
devices running Microsofts software.

------
titanix2
Yes it did. I start using a lot (as a student) Visual Studio and Windows 7
after a year with Linux. By this time products were good. I got a Windows
Phone 7 and developed some app on it.

After that Microsoft release Win8 with its insane UI that make me loose time
compared to previous versions and it was mandatory to develop for WP8. Then it
release WP8 with no upgrade for existing phones. It purposely "uglify" VS 2012
removing all color and using CAPS menu which I found more difficult to use.

Things got even worst with Win10 where they actually didn't listen to feedack
and release an OS with start menu not really usage. And forced people to
migrate by changing their whole system! Also bugs, bugs and bugs with both the
system, new version of Visual Studio. And on the phone side they kill the
entire Nokia line-up and still no manage to release a usable version of Win10
for phone in on year. The insider builds each broke more stuff than they fix
even to the point you cannot even deploy an app.

I franckly tired of this cr*p. Promises not kept. And the fact Microsoft had
cards to do great stuff but self destroy them. Many times. I'm still using VS
and C# because that's awesome but I will not change my system for Win10.
That's why the .net core stuff is interesting.

------
ionised
What litle trust they had from me was obliterated by their practices over the
last year.

Never buying anything Microsoft again.

I will begrudgingly continue to use W10 as I am a heavy-duty PC gamer but I've
locked that shit down as tight as is humanly possible.

All my personal computing and development will be done solely on Arch from now
on.

------
WorldMaker
I've been happy with Windows 10 on all my devices. I didn't have any issues
with GWX, because I switched over early on, at my convenience. What I hear
about it since doesn't sound all that different from what I remember of iOS
upgrade nags.

~~~
Piskvorrr
iOS nags. GWX oversteps the line and installs regardless of consent. _That_
was the breaking point for me. (Win10 clean install is reasonably usable,
although the mix of not-Metro-nooo and old Windows GUI style is weird)

~~~
WorldMaker
The buttons are "Update Now" and "Update Later"; "Update Later" is a sort of
consent. I do think there was an issue with it using the window close button
as an implicit "Update Later" and that is a bad UX they should have tried to
avoid.

I don't mind the mix of app styles these days. I realize it will take a lot of
effort for developers to modernize some old applications and there are many
old applications that will never be modernized due to disinterest from
developers or no active development or too big of a code base.

(I also like that modern apps can run on all my devices, including my phone,
as I'm one of the few weird Windows 10 phone owners.)

~~~
Piskvorrr
And if you are not present at the screen, it ass-u-mes "where do you want to
go today? Wait, that's not up to you: Windows X it is!" Very useful when
employees turn up for morning shift to find a Brand New Os. Which doesn't play
well with hardware (because the HW vendor is still working on a WinX driver).
Which was the reason the upgrade from Win7 had not been greenlighted _yet_.
But hey presto, all great and good; never mind that a company can't do its
business; that's not a problem for MS, here's your bunch of broken boxes, and
_that 's your problem now_. We got what we wanted, screw everything else:
[https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hkAhasCtTg8/Tny1nldYIFI/A...](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hkAhasCtTg8/Tny1nldYIFI/AAAAAAAAAGc/KcSFrDNv2xs/w506-h419/computer%252Cdesign%252Cimages%252Cphilosophy%252Ccomputers%252Ccartoon-c020938493360a30c06cc73132112e7d_h%255B1%255D.jpg)

And yes, this is exactly what "spent trust" is: orders came from On High to
take off, nuke the site from orbit, repave with Win7 images, and never ever
let Windows Update touch the boxes again (!): MS is now, by executive fiat,
considered rogue ("we literally cannot afford another Windows X infection, WU
is now an attack vector"). Everybody loses (except for that guy at MS whose
bonus hinges on number of finished WinX installs; btw if he's reading this:
you are, personally, a reason why we can't have nice things): security is
undermined by no more patches, man-months are wasted on getting stuff to work
again, there's plenty of MS-directed anger, customers are angry at company,
not to mention we won't get WinX anytime soon, if at all. Whether anyone is
willing to convince the mgmt that they've overreacted over MS's overeager
installer is left as an exercise to the reader.

(The "close-as-yes" is also not "an issue", it is not mere "bad UI" \- that is
black-hat UX (and oh, very much against MS's own UX guidelines, hello
hypocrisy!); deception, plain and simple.)

((The mix of app styles is but a minor quirk; and for really oooold apps,
there's Virtual PC anyway.))

~~~
WorldMaker
«The "close-as-yes" is also not "an issue", it is not mere "bad UI" \- that is
black-hat UX (and oh, very much against MS's own UX guidelines, hello
hypocrisy!); deception, plain and simple.»

I don't attribute that to malice but an honest mistake. I think there was a
combination of engineering pride involved ("Why wouldn't people want to
upgrade as soon as they could?") and engineering obstinacy ("We don't want
another XP!"), perhaps even more than that marketing metric everyone thinks
they were focused on.

As for the anecdote of the business outage. My condolences. It sounds like the
HW vendor should have done a better job at messaging to Microsoft that their
existing hardware driver was not testing compatible with Windows 10 (and maybe
a better job at their driver in general). Also, companies had the options to
use System Center and Group Policy to drive GWX away, and admittedly that's
not an easy admin task, but generally something companies should do for
mission critical PCs anyway. (Not to mention that GWX is/was different on
Enterprise SKUs and possibly a sign your anecdotal company was using not
properly licensed Home or Pro SKUs on mission critical machines.)

~~~
Piskvorrr
See? "Blah blah blah not MS problem (plus a poorly veiled accusation of
piracy, to add insult to injury)"

Anyway, doesn't matter now if the GWX fiasco was malicious or not. Damage is
done.

~~~
WorldMaker
Sorry, was not accusing of piracy, only possible ignorance. I've worked with
companies that didn't know the difference between Home and Pro and Enterprise
SKUs and I don't think everyone realizes how many small and medium sized
business run on Windows Home editions.

Windows is a huge ecosystem and there is a lot of blame to pass around in
every direction. I admitted that it was an MS problem, but I was also trying
to point out that it was an ecosystem problem too. (There hasn't been a major
driver architecture change between Vista and 10 and it blows my mind how many
drivers needed new releases every Windows version between Vista and 10 and
weren't just magically compatible.) Apologies if that point did not come
across well.

~~~
Piskvorrr
Thank you for the clarification; my apologies for venting at you as if you
were MS. There were ways that the organization should have blocked the upgrade
better; and I agree that the need for new drivers where old ones ought to be
fine is definitely not MS's fault.

------
anonbanker
Microsoft spent my trust with the Palladium incident, but I left beforehand
for greener pastures/uptimes.

\- Linux-only since 1999.

