
Dear AirBNB, No Thank You for the XXX Freak Fest - nkrumm
http://dearairbnb.tumblr.com/post/120063930038/i-am-homeless-because-of-airbnbs-xxx-freak-fest
======
onewaystreet
This happened a year ago and AirBNB paid him $23,000 for the damages at the
time. His new complaint is that he has been blacklisted from renting in NYC.

~~~
underwater
Leaving that out from the post is pretty misleading. He keeps saying "you need
to fix this". What else does he expect them to do?

~~~
_ak
Get him to get unblacklisted so that he can rent in NYC again, maybe?

~~~
thaumaturgy
He was renting an apartment and he listed it on AirBNB, which was almost
certainly a violation of his lease agreement (and poor judgement on his part).
The blacklisting, if it exists as he says it does, is entirely his own fault.

~~~
akshatpradhan
AirBnB doesn't seem to take reasonable steps to protect either side. I
remember I rented out a place and I had no hot water for a week and the place
was filthy. AirBnB's response was along the lines of, sorry, good luck finding
a better host next time!

Maybe AirBnB needs to create educational video instructions on how to act as
both a Host and a Guest. Hosts and Guests seem to be uninformed on how to
behave and these common sense practices don't really seem to be common, for
whatever reason.

~~~
7Figures2Commas
Videos would be great. Suggestions:

For Hosts:

 _How to Violate Your Lease Agreement by Renting Out Your Apartment the Right
Way

Dealing with Cockroach Infestations_

For Guests:

 _How to Clean Up Properly After an Orgy

How to Blend In at an Apartment Community You Don't Belong At_

~~~
akshatpradhan
This is a start and better than what they have right now. :D

------
marcoperaza
I don't understand how AirBnB is responsible here. You're obviously taking a
risk when you hand over the keys to your apartment to a stranger. This is the
same risk that landlords take when they lease the unit in the first place;
hence why these blacklists exist: to minimize risk. The difference is that the
landlord is at least leasing what is his to lease. Renting your apartment on
AirBnB is prohibited by just about every lease, and is flat-out illegal in
NYC. He broke the terms of his lease and the law to make hundreds of dollars a
night, trusted a stranger that a website connected him with, and got busted.
He could try to sue the guy that threw the orgy, just like landlords can try
to sue deadbeat tenants; but just like the landlords, he'll probably get
nowhere. The law can't protect you from your own poor decision-making. Would
you want to rent your property to this guy?

~~~
belorn
If its illegal by practically every lease out there, are AirBnB then
encouraging people to break the law?

There is this site where people put movies and films they have got a license
to see but not a license to distribute. That site got busted for assisting in
the illegal activity that their users did, primary because they turned a blind
eye to the problem.

~~~
jahewson
A lease doesn't get to make the law, so it's not "illegal", it's simply "non-
contractual". Breaking the contact means you'll get evicted, but there's no
law-breaking occurring.

~~~
marcoperaza
In this particular case it is also against the law of NYC, which prohibits
short-term rentals like AirBnB.

~~~
jahewson
Yes indeed, and while it's not "practically every lease" it's obviously highly
relevant. It's worth noting that subletting a room is legal in NYC providing
the actual resident is present in the apartment too, so it's certainly
possible to have legal AirBnB in NYC.

~~~
marcoperaza
If you search AirBnB for rentals in New York City where you have the whole
place to yourself, you'll find thousands of listings for unquestionably
illegal rentals. I wonder whether it's legal for AirBnB to do this, and I have
mixed feelings about whether it should be. By taking a commission and
providing insurance, they're involving themselves intimately in clearly
illegal transactions. I'm guessing it would hinge on the exact way NYC law is
written and on jurisdictional issues. Either way, this doesn't absolve people
violating their leases by subletting on AirBnB. You're responsible for abiding
by your contracts the same way that you're responsible for abiding by the law.
The fact that someone helped you carry out your malfeasance doesn't change
that.

------
viraptor
I'm not sure why he wants AirBnB to fix the blacklist issue. I mean, sure, the
situation sucks for him and he was put there partially because of renting his
place via AirBnB. But he can't realistically expect AirBnB to fix this issue.

According to this [1]:

> The blacklist is actually a database of suits filed by landlords and
> compiled by tenant screening companies.

So it's basically the same as Experian, Equifax, and other credit rating
agencies. And it's the same kind of scam in the end.

What AirBnB could potentially do is get together with him to figure out how to
appeal the entry based on the applicable regulations. But that's not what I'd
call them fixing the issue.

[1] [http://www.npr.org/2014/12/14/367833532/tenant-blacklist-
can...](http://www.npr.org/2014/12/14/367833532/tenant-blacklist-can-haunt-
new-york-renters-for-years)

~~~
gyardley
He wants AirBnB to fix the blacklist issue because he can no longer rent an
apartment after an eviction caused by his AirBnB guests.

I'm not sure why you find that hard to understand. It was obvious from the
post.

Not that I would ever let strangers stay in my place, but I would expect the
same thing.

~~~
notdanariely
Hmm, an interesting and different perspective! Thank you for sharing.

If I were to consider renting my place on AirBnB, I would consider the people
staying here to be my guests, not ABnB's. While I believe there is some
concern with how the company represents themselves, the fact remains that it's
his apartment he chose to rent out. Illegally, I might add.

If you rented a room to someone referred by a friend, and that guest trashed
your place... would you expect your friend to make restitution? (Personally, I
would downgrade my trust in that friend's opinion, but I don't think I would
hold them _liable_...)

~~~
gyardley
A friend?

No, I wouldn't expect a friend to make restitution at all - unless, of course,
my friend had done this sort of thing millions of times, knew I was likely
subjecting myself to the risk of eviction (probably completely inadvertently),
and didn't bother to say a damn thing to me.

If, instead of warning me about the stupid risk I was taking, my friend
highlighted things designed to make my behavior _seem_ risk-free (like, say, a
million-dollar property damage guarantee), well, then I might feel a little
differently. If my friend had built a multi-billion-dollar business off of the
risky behavior of me and others like me, then I _know_ I would feel
differently.

But this is a moot point, because friends don't let their friends engage in
risky behavior without at least making them aware of those risks. Someone that
does that isn't your friend at all.

------
jmcgough
Anyone who googles him (or does a background check) will see a ton of red
flags, including being involved in several lawsuits over the last few years.
I'm not shocked no one will let him rent a place - I sure wouldn't.

[http://nypost.com/2014/11/11/embattled-manhattan-doc-
faces-a...](http://nypost.com/2014/11/11/embattled-manhattan-doc-faces-
accusation-of-quackery/)

[http://nypost.com/2014/03/28/comedian-outs-pr-execs-
affair-a...](http://nypost.com/2014/03/28/comedian-outs-pr-execs-affair-as-
payback-for-bad-real-estate-deal-lawsuit/)

[http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2012/03/23/the-strange-
tal...](http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2012/03/23/the-strange-tale-of-
nextgen-and-nextgen/)

[http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/airbnb-orgy-victim-
sues-...](http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/airbnb-orgy-victim-sues-nyc-
condo-super-comments-article-1.1957128)

------
thekevan
He acts as if he had no part in signing up to be an AirBNB user and just came
home from work one days to find his apartment trashed by the freak fest.

~~~
recursive
He doesn't seem to act like that at all. He's acting like signing up for
AirBNB doesn't mean you expect this to happen. He refers to some AirBNB
guarantee, although I'm not sure what it says. In any case, I think it's
reasonable to assume that signing up for AirBNB won't make you homeless.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Signing up for AirBnB exposes you to the same risks as if you sublet your
living space the same way it would in a traditional transaction. Rent to
shitty people? You're responsible. AirBnB does not guarantee a pleasant
experience, nor is it required to make this person whole by getting them
removed from whatever tenant blacklist they're on.

Welcome to bumps on the "sharing economy" road.

Edit: it appears property management companies are using public court records
to screen this person, preventing them from renting. That's not an AirBnB
problem, that's a fair housing legislation problem.

~~~
ghughes
Is it really a problem? I'd argue that it _should_ be a matter of public
record that this guy was evicted for (indirectly) causing $23k in property
damage, and it seems entirely reasonable for landlords to screen tenants based
on prior evictions and other housing court judgements.

~~~
toomuchtodo
I don't think it shouldn't be public record, but I do believe you shouldn't be
able to reject someone outright due to one event.

I foreclosed on my underwater town home. Should I need to live in my car
because my credit report has one negative item on it in 16 years? (Rentals of
course pull your credit)

Housing is a regulated industry for good reason. Property managers are free to
use data sources such as in this case, but there needs to be an appeal
process. Otherwise, we'll start to have a class of people who a defacto
homeless due solely to historical data.

------
planetjones
Was the author sub-letting his apartment on a temporary basis via air bnb?
Would that be legal in NYC? Maybe the fact his landlord found out and
blacklisted him for illegal sub-letting is the bigger problem...

~~~
MichaelCrawford
I was once an illegal subletter. The actual tenant moved out, and so notified
me that I was being evicted. I protested to the apartment manager, who told me
that I could not possibly be subletting, because subletting was contractually
forbidden.

"That may be true, but even so I was subletting."

The tenant left a huge mess when he moved out. I told the manager that I
removed everything from the fridge, cleaned it thoroughly then put back in the
fridge everything that did not belong to me.

I was invited to rent some other apartment in the same complex but oddly was
not permitted to stay in the apartment I was subletting.

A couple weeks later the tenant called me on the phone to demand compensation
for all the cleaning, hauling and dump fees he had to pay.

"I had to sell my truck," he said.

"I removed everything from the apartment that belonged to me," I replied.

"I understand" he said woefully. I never heard from him again.

This experience made me a lot wiser about how I search for housing. There were
many red flags such as his response to my requirement that my new place be
near public transit.

"There's a bus stop nearby, I'll pick you up in my truck."

"nearby" in truck miles is a lot closer than in walking miles.

------
mschuster91
Here's a link to Gawker, first hit for "xxx freak fest" for those doubting the
story, including a statement by Airbnb where they promised to help the host:
[http://gawker.com/man-unwittingly-rents-out-apartment-on-
air...](http://gawker.com/man-unwittingly-rents-out-apartment-on-airbnb-for-
xxx-1544961941)

------
Rainymood
While I agree with the tone of the message, I don't agree with how he tries to
spin the ball. The constant repetition of 'You need to fix thix' feels really
childish and finger-pointy.

Does anyone exactly what AirBnB's legal requirements/jib-jab is on this stuff?

~~~
dragontamer
AirBnB probably doesn't have any.

Now the question is why hasn't he sued the crap out of the tenant who lied to
him and decided to have a sex orgy in his apartment?

~~~
hvidgaard
He probably doesn't have legal ground to stand on. I mean, every single place
I've ever rented, write in bold that I cannot, without explicit accept from
the owner, rent it to other people.

I understand why he was blacklisted, and if his contract is anything like I
suspect, it's his own fault. He can buy a place and rent it out instead, but
doing it with other peoples property without their concent is asking for
trouble.

~~~
dragontamer
Your experience matches mine as well. Hell, my current home doesn't allow
subletting. (I'm only allowed to lease the _whole house_ as a unit, and it has
to be for a full year minimum). Local laws, zoning... and all that good stuff.

------
gyardley
AirBnB could easily prevent such issues by explicitly requiring people to
confirm they're not subject to a lease that prohibits short-term rentals and
therefore not at risk of eviction -- before they can list a property for rent.
No doubt they'll get right on that.

Kidding aside, not making people aware of these risks and trumpeting a
'$1,000,000 Guarantee' (that only happens to cover property damage) just
creates an _illusion_ of risklessness -- one that takes advantage of the
greedy and stupid.

Normally when a company takes advantage of the greedy and stupid, most of HN
pitches a fit. What's different this time?

~~~
marcoperaza
This guy had a duty to his landlord to abide by his lease. The fact that
AirBnB helped him violate his lease does not give him any cause of action.
That would be like suing The Pirate Bay because the MPAA sued you for
downloading movies through them. The landlord could perhaps sue AirBnB for
tortious interference, but they probably don't care enough to go through the
trouble.

------
aheilbut
The poor guy seems to have a remarkable knack for accidentally stumbling into
all kinds of drama.

[http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2012/03/23/the-strange-
tal...](http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2012/03/23/the-strange-tale-of-
nextgen-and-nextgen/)

------
biturd
Does anyone know how he plotted where he slept on a map like that? I am
assuming he did not hand enter it into some API maps tool, but rather, an app
he has marks his location.

I would like an app like this in the event I ever need to prove my location.
And I think it would be cool to see where I go on a map.

~~~
mschuster91
In case you know a bit of javascript, such a map is trivial to do in
Javascript.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Google "github location history". Should be first result.

------
makeitsuckless
People who rent out apartments they don't own fully deserve to get
blacklisted.

The author dares to call it "my apartment", but you don't get evicted from
your own apartment. He is the one who abused someone else's property in the
first place.

 __Edit __: I truly don 't understand all the downvotes. Here's someone who
illegally exploits someone else's apartment for profit, and clearly feels no
responsibility for his role in the whole affair. What is so abnormal about the
fact that no one wants to rent to this person anymore?

If I borrow your car, rent it to someone I don't know who then proceeds to
crash it, would you then consider met the victim or the a-hole who abused your
trust to make fast buck and got your car totalled?

~~~
omegaworks
Confusing abusing someone else with abusing someone else's property is the
reason for so much pain and evil in this world.

Thanks for propagating the mythos.

~~~
dragontamer
Unfortunately, there's a reason why subletting for less than 30 days is
_illegal_ in New York City. Because you attract a crowd of people who like to
do Sex Orgies in stranger's houses.

At the end of the day, it was a mistake for the author to use AirBNB, and now
he is paying the price.

~~~
rosser
I'm pretty sure "people who like to do Sex Orgies in stranger's houses" wasn't
on _anyone 's_ mind when New York made short-term subletting illegal.

~~~
dragontamer
They probably weren't thinking "sex orgies", but they probably were thinking
"illegal prostitution".

There's a reason why zoning laws exist. In particular, hotels and other
temporary arrangements attract drug deals, prostitution, and other unsavory
characters.

I can guarantee you that "illegal prostitution" was on the mind of city
planners when they zoned out the place. Maybe not quite "sex orgies", but it'd
be within the neighborhood (oh I'm so punny...)

------
wodenokoto
Isn't this exactly why you are not allowed to use your private apartment as a
hotel?

------
ivv
The guy has reportedly received $23k from Airbnb following the orgy, sued his
condo for its super's disparaging comments, a doctor for misdiagnosing him,
and is sued by some other guy for defamation in an unrelated issue.

~~~
beedogs
...and?

It seems as though he's in the right, and that AirBNB is still screwing him
over, so why mention those things?

~~~
dragontamer
How is AirBNB screwing him over?

The AirBnB _Tenant_ screwed him over. Why would AirBnB have any responsibility
over the tenants?

~~~
IvyMike
> Why would AirBnB have any responsibility over the tenants?

They may not have any legal responsibility.

But consider the message sent to potential renters. Does AirBnB really want
this horror story out there, scaring away customers?

~~~
tsotha
So he's blackmailing them, essentially?

~~~
IvyMike
That seems pretty harsh--another way of framing it is that he's spreading the
information about a potential risk.

In the end, AirBnB's message _has_ to be "we make renting to strangers safe"
or else nobody would rent with then. But a lot of people in this thread are
saying "he took the risk and paid the price". So which should a potential
renter believe?

------
issa
I feel like the real problem here is the same problem that exists in all of
these situations where the law hasn't caught up to technology: someone is
being made an example of.

When a few people pay a huge price for something that "everyone" is doing, it
is simply unfair. The people who have been sued for downloading music are a
similar example.

In my opinion, AirBNB should fix this situation because they can. It isn't
fair for one renter to bear the brunt of the pushback while the company
continues to make huge profit.

It isn't about blame, it's about each side's ability to right what is an
unfair situation.

------
pistle
He obviously made a bad decision to rent out his apartment. This isn't
AirBnb's problem.

Look through my previous comments. I'm no fan of AB or most of the sharing
economy's big players, but this is the sort of thing that will continue to
happen and why basing a business model on the backs of people's bad risk
evaluations is tenuous. These models won't hold up without the downside being
felt directly by the app providers. But, then where's the fun/money?

------
thewhizkid
As the occasional host in SF, I do get extremely paranoid about guests, and
only accept requests from guests who have had an account for more than a year,
who have 100% positive reviews, and has at least 2 reviews in the last 6
months. Obviously I reject a lot of requests. Even then I did have one
unfortunate incident involving a guest bringing home another guest that stole
something even though I explicitly said "no guests."

My perspective from the host POV is that you really have to do your own
vetting of guests beyond anything AirBnB will provide. AirBnB provides
barebones proof of ID, but that's it.

Ultimately, I find AirBnB's business to be 100x "crazier" than other "sharing"
companies like, say, Uber. At least with Uber there is a more regimented
process for vetting and onboarding drivers. With AirBnB it is still a free-
for-all on both sides.

At the end of the day, you're letting a total stranger into your house. Where
you sleep and have all your things. It's a risk and everyone who uses AirBnB
should be aware of it.

------
stevecalifornia
What are the arguments for and against AirBNB being responsible for the
behavior of the people using AirBNB?

~~~
jlawer
Well Airbnb claim to cover hosts :
[https://www.airbnb.com.au/guarantee](https://www.airbnb.com.au/guarantee) and
market themselves as such.

~~~
stevecalifornia
It says they cover property damage and doesn't mention other things like
eviction.

~~~
Xylakant
Is eviction not a form of property damage? In the best case a move costs
money. In the worst case it's not even possible to find an appartment at
comparable prices.

~~~
saryant
How is that _property_ damage?

------
chkuendig
Background/original post: [http://dearairbnb.tumblr.com/post/79657042387/dear-
airbnb-no...](http://dearairbnb.tumblr.com/post/79657042387/dear-airbnb-no-
thank-you-for-the-xxx-freak-fest)

------
zeeed
Why is there such a shitstorm going on here?

Here's a guy who is now living on the street and, for all that is known, has
his private life shaken up. I for my part can understand that he would like to
have at least his reputation restored, i.e. be taken off the blacklist.

------
stretchwithme
One should always weigh the most one could profit against the most one could
be harmed. Don't do it unless that loss is not very likely and one can be
tolerate it or buy insurance for it.

This fellow's loss of reputation was one of those harms and you can't buy
insurance for that. AirBnB didn't even know the terms of the lease he signed
so why should they fix the consequences of violating it?

~~~
eropple
AirBNB does know that it's illegal in the overwhelming majority of NYC
apartments (like, 99+%) to short-term lease. And yet they keep operating
uncritically in NYC. Almost like they don't care about the illegalities they
participate in. Strange.

------
xcyu
Well at least he did a great job making the most out of this incident.
[http://www.inc.com/will-yakowicz/how-to-make-the-most-out-
of...](http://www.inc.com/will-yakowicz/how-to-make-the-most-out-of-an-
orgy.html)

------
6t6t6
What I cannot really understand in the first place is why it is legal for the
companies in the US to make (Black-)Lists of citizens.

Isn't it any law that regulates that?

------
u04f061
My sympathies for him. AirBNB should help him to get out of this blacklist.

------
soroso
Sorry for my lack of knowledge. What is it "XXX Freak Fest"?

------
omegaworks
He should just find an AirBNB :D

...oh wait

~~~
princeb
this is tongue in cheek but given that airbnb does not concern itself with the
NYC tenant blacklists this might be one of few viable options for this guy.

------
benchoud
What is the xhamster link to URL of the video?

------
tiatia
Well, he could rent a place through AirBnB...

------
beedogs
I really won't miss AirBNB when the inevitable blizzard of lawsuits destroys
it.

What a terrible company.

~~~
dylanjermiah
Why will they be sued into oblivion?

~~~
toomuchtodo
Housing/hoteling ordinance violations, similar to how one by one, local
governments are banning Uber from operating in their jurisdiction.

------
Dramatize
This doesn't seem legitimate. Not sure why, but it seems fake.

~~~
mschuster91
It is legit and it was on HN when it happened. I'm on mobile though so I can't
really search for the first submission.

~~~
minimaxir
HN thread:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407796](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407796)

------
cloudsloth
It seems like the issue here should be that rentals/hotels are discriminating
based on whether someone operates as an AirBnB host or not. Other renter's who
do the same without such a notable 'incident' are the same level of risk. It
is quite unfair I believe that this person is unable to find a rental. Rental
agencies should figure out their stance and make it clear and unilateral.

~~~
marcoperaza
He broke the terms of his lease so he could make hundreds of dollars a night.
Rental agencies aren't in the business of leasing to people with a record of
violating lease agreements.

