
Problems with Remote Learning - miles
https://www.wsj.com/articles/schools-coronavirus-remote-learning-lockdown-tech-11591375078
======
DrPhish
I can't read the article since I don't have a subscription, but I wanted to
share my experiences anyways.

I have 3 boys, one each in elementary, junior high and senior high.

The remote learning experience has been dramatically different for each. Our
school district has every student on Office 365, so we're in good shape
technology-wise.

The senior high student has been able to just go through his texts, work on
the assignments, do the tests and continue on mostly as normal. He gets
through an 8 hour school day and seems to be better for it at the end.

The junior high-school student is having much more trouble. There is less
material to study, and what there is is filler-heavy. He _maybe_ has 3 hours a
day of actual work and is then at loose ends. I have been pulling more
advanced material for him to work to keep up his education during allotted
school hours, but he also doesn't have the more developed focus and discipline
of his older brother.

The elementary (grade 6, so almost junior high) student has the least amount
of actual work. Maybe an hour a day from his teacher. He's lucky that his
teacher is accommodating and allows him to e.g. document his progress to the
mun through Kerbal in career mode for the space module they're doing instead
of reading a few NASA pamphlets and being bored.

The big takeaway I've had from this whole thing is that each student will only
get as much out as they are willing (or forced) to put in. The opportunity to
explore avenues of learning beyond and outside the established system is
immense, and will probably grow some already latent educational gaps between
kids.

I have a feeling a lot of parents are throwing their kids at video games and
youtube, or just ignoring them altogether, whether through lack of time and
resources, or lack of interest.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
This is more-or-less exactly what I would expect: the younger you are, the
more in-person learning matters. At the extreme end of the spectrum, imagine
attempting remote preschool for a toddler (or maybe you don't have to imagine
it these days). It clearly wouldn't work!

Adults are able to learn from mostly independent study. Teenagers are able to
learn somewhat from independent study. Elementary school kids can maybe do
some independent study, but not much.

Unavailable parents are part of the problem—but another way to phrase that is,
the parent isn't available to act as a teacher (albeit one heavily aided by
online resources).

~~~
poulsbohemian
>This is more-or-less exactly what I would expect: the younger you are, the
more in-person learning matters.

Yes, but I think there's something else more subtle happening - younger kids
have a lot less to do. I originally wrote a long diatribe with lots of facts,
but it comes down to this: programs like No Child Left Behind et al. have
actually lowered standards, especially by decreasing the subjects encountered
at younger ages. Things that might have been taught at that age in the past
have been pushed up or out.

On the other hand, re: in-person learning... watching my ten year old lap her
class because she's on Khan Academy told me what I had long suspected: All of
the _academic_ things we are teaching at the early grades _can_ be automated
away. In fact, I'm fairly convinced she picked up the material better that way
than the classroom approach because she had fewer distractions.

So, yes - my high schooler is even more nominally self-sufficient than my
younger kids, but I think it has more to do with the amount of material she
has to cover rather than age or aptitude related.

------
rootusrootus
Agreed, the schools were not well-prepared for this style of learning and so
it has not been particularly effective. We still participate with our kids'
classes and teachers, but we rely on Khan Academy, augmented by Adventure
Academy, among other things. Even so, we are not professional teachers, so I
look forward to them returning to class next year.

~~~
freehunter
I agree that the lesson learned here is that _emergency remote learning_ did
not work. No one was prepared for it, teachers did not have training or
materials needed, students were not expecting it, it was a mess. But that
doesn't mean it can't work, just that it didn't work _in this emergency
situation_.

~~~
thehoff
To some extent I agree. But some districts/schools seemed to really have
thought through how to deal with this quickly.

Our child's district did a horrible job, from our viewpoint and from the few
other parents I've talked to in the same district (public).

Up the road is a private school that I hear from their parents did a fantastic
job. As well as another parent in a district (public) further from us.

Edit: I'm curious to see how this affects the online schools (especially high
school and below).

------
zebnyc
This is definitely an issue for families which don’t have access to computers
& broadband internet. For the rest, I wonder if the results would have been
better if there had ideas from the home-schooling community which could have
been incorporated. Granted, this would require way more effort from the parent
and a different mindset. However a primer on what to expect, how to overcome
obstacles, keeping kids on track, etc. Traditional schools are totally
unprepared for this scenario in a remote world.

Storytime, a few years back one of my ex-colleagues decided to buy a ranch on
the outskirts of Seattle to work remotely. What made the decision easier was
that A) his pre-teen kids were already being homeschooled B) his spouse was a
stay at home mom who spent a significant amount of time keeping the kids on
track.

He showed me pictures of the house which looked beautiful. Sat on the edge of
a lake with a backdrop against the mountains and came with a stable for horses
and livestock.

------
cortesoft
K-12 schools serve two purposes - to educate students and to provide child
care during the day.

Clearly remote learning isn’t going to work when it doesn’t solve the second
need.

~~~
poulsbohemian
There's a third leg to the stool: Food and general welfare. Our local PTA has
long put together meal / clothing care packages to send home with kids in
need, but even before our distance learning program kicked in, the schools
made sure to be open to provide meals for kids in need. Maybe this isn't the
case everywhere, but in districts like ours with a high number of kids at the
poverty level, schools are a significant provider of meals / health and
welfare checks.

------
neonate
[https://archive.md/peiyp](https://archive.md/peiyp)

~~~
momothereal
I haven't been able to access archive.is and archive.md in Firefox because of
a Cloudflare error, "Please enable cookies.". It works on Chrome however.

~~~
samschooler
In case you haven't seen, this is probably the reason for the error: You're
using 1.1.1.1 for DNS which is not supported by archive currently.
[https://twitter.com/archiveis/status/1018691421182791680](https://twitter.com/archiveis/status/1018691421182791680)

~~~
momothereal
Specifically, it seems to be the new "DNS over HTTPS" feature in Firefox, with
the default Cloudflare provider. I guess 1.1.1.1 will cause the same issue.

Interestingly, without TLS, the error is "Please enable cookies", whereas on
HTTPS it's "403 Forbidden" after passing through an invalid cert.

------
jseliger
I just re-read "Why technology won't fix education" and find it germane to
many conversations going on right now:
[https://jakeseliger.com/2020/05/26/why-technology-will-
never...](https://jakeseliger.com/2020/05/26/why-technology-will-never-fix-
education/)

------
paulus_magnus2
I think what we did during the lockdown doesn't count as a proper test of home
schooling / remote working.

What we did here in Belgium is to force kids to stay at home and force parents
to work from home WHILE the kids are there. I have 3 and none of the teachers
throughout 3 months of confinement had a single Skype session with any. We're
talking about <10 years old so a single teacher is normally dedicated to the
kids. In effect on top of working from home we have to do the job of 3
teachers. Actually make it 6 teachers because the normal school lessons are
half-day between 9 and 12 noon and in the afternoon another teacher is taking
over or they just throw the pupils into a playground. So yes, it doesn't work
under these circumstances.

------
wdb
There are kids who thriving by studying from home compared from
studying/lessons in the traditional school environment. At least that has been
reported on the radio/news in The Netherlands.

Fully depends on the students what kind of learning/teaching is best for them
when they are allowed to plan which tasks they do instead of following the
schedule of the teacher.

------
op00to
My (mixed income but weighted towards wealthy) community schools did excellent
remote instruction, and at no time have I seen academic rigor reduced or
compromised. I wonder if this is the educational equivalent of needing a
product pivot and just totally doing the same thing, just with a different hat
on.

------
Hydraulix989
Is this because there is no effective way to do "remote learning" or just
because of poor execution?

~~~
mrcartmenez
Research from the university sector in the US and Europe — who invested
heavily in remote learning in the past decade to try to increase their reach —
is unfortunately that distance learning is an order of magnitude worse in
terms of outcomes than for traditional teaching.

~~~
dredmorbius
Any references you could share?

------
EmilioMartinez
Archived link: [https://archive.vn/cm9I5](https://archive.vn/cm9I5)

------
stephc_int13
Is it an involuntary illustration of the "jumping to conclusions" fallacy?

------
dgrin91
Headlines like this are probably the worst possible way to do reporting. It
tells you what it wants you to think right up front. There is no room for
critical thought or debate. There is no possibility for them to be wrong. It
implies the full authority of the entire scientific community and if you
disagree in the slightest you are a heretic.

This is why I like hackernews. There is much less of this crap (though
obviously as we can see in this case it still happens).

~~~
erichocean
> _This is why I like hackernews._

HN guidelines mandate "the worst possible way to do reporting" by not allowing
submitters to alter headlines that are obviously bad.

Most HN readers wouldn't even click on the article, or even click on the
comments page. _But they see the headline._

~~~
dredmorbius
The guidelines specifically encourage substituting for clickbait or
thoughtstopping headlines:

 _If the title begins with a number or number + gratuitous adjective, we 'd
appreciate it if you'd crop it. E.g. translate "10 Ways To Do X" to "How To Do
X," and "14 Amazing Ys" to "Ys." Exception: when the number is meaningful,
e.g. "The 5 Platonic Solids."_

 _Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or
linkbait; don 't editorialize._

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

Often a subhead or lede is a vast improvement. Here I'd argue for "The
pandemic forced schools into a crash course in online education."

(Submitting to hn@ycombinator.com)

~~~
erichocean
Are you honestly suggesting that applies to WSJ headlines in general, and this
specific instance in particular?

I suspect not. In which case, what—exactly—are you trying to accomplish with
your comment? Muddy the waters? Convince people there's no problem? Waste
people's time on irrelevant info?

~~~
dredmorbius
The guidelines are absolutely general, not merely the WSJ.

I'll let you work out the applicability of my suggested alternate, possibly
comparing it with dang's editorial choice.

I'm not sure what your specific beef is. The article, regardless of merits,
would be better discussed with ... (checks and sees a changed title on HN) ...
something other than the originally-submitted, WSJ-provided, headline.

I'm distinctly not a fan of the WSJ. The argument that the recent, global,
crash-course on distance learning has ... proved uneven ... should hardly be
controversial. It deserves a fair hearing, whether the WSJ has done so or not,
and the topic seems well within HN's remit.

------
29athrowaway
Technology is not an emphasis in teacher education.

If engineers were teachers, in one week you would see them creating github
repos with reusable TeX material for every possible class that exists, and
then finding a way to evaluate and rank the best material.

In contrast, every teacher creates their own material that rarely gets reused,
evaluated or ranked in any way, resulting in suboptimal material and wasted
effort.

~~~
wongarsu
Computer Science professors are well educated in technology, yet I see much
more sharing of material between primary school teachers than among computer
science professors.

Teachers know how to use photocopiers, if material isn't shared and reused the
reason isn't lack of sophisticated technology.

~~~
29athrowaway
I am referring to teachers in general, including elementary/middle/high school
teachers, for every subject, not only computer science.

You can use computers to teach almost anything.

~~~
reidjs
I'm curious to know how much classroom teaching experience you have? I agree a
motivated person can learn almost anything from an internet enabled computer,
but I disagree that you can teach almost anything. In my experience they're
not useful for teaching children fundamental skills like math, writing, music,
etc.

~~~
29athrowaway
I am not saying we should put each kid in front of a computer, at least at the
beginning.

I am saying that the educational material that kids are learning from could be
produced in a smarter, more reusable way so that it can be objectively
compared and improved.

