
Ask HN: How to help get more women in tech as a male? - tobz
There&#x27;s been a groundswell over the past few years of organizations dedicated to helping get more women into tech, along with other STEM fields.  Usually, though, these organizations are for women BY women.  As a male, it feels like it would be considered white knighting, or condescending, to try and offer help to these organizations, or to attempt to start something on my own.<p>I&#x27;m looking for your thoughts on what I can actually do to help this movement.  Any real-world experience would be greatly appreciated.
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seekingcharlie
I'm a female designer/dev. I got my diploma in design & then I went back & got
my bachelor in CS (Maths).

Some here have mentioned interest & I agree. I think being a dev in general is
a pretty lonely world. Multiply that by about 100 if you're a female dev. This
is the same for anything STEM-related. I was the only girl in my high school
physics class of 40+ boys, then 20 girls in 400 for CS & most dropped out by
the end. I think you have to have some kind of underlying "geekiness" that
makes you prefer looking at a screen vs anything else.

Most females that I know either A) don't know what a startup is at all or B)
would love to learn to code, but shake it off as something they could never
do. In the case of B), it would really only take one male/female to invite
them to a meetup, hackathon, coworking session (or whatever) & perhaps that
would be enough. I guess what I'm trying to say is, work out a way to make
"tech" seem like something other than what non-tech females probably think it
is - White men, incapable of non-awkward conversation, playing WoW on a Friday
night in a dim-lit room.

~~~
marquis
Also female dev here - I think we all have our unique story about how we
stayed in tech against the odds, rather than going with the flow. It might be
helpful if we could, as women still working in the industry, compile a proper
set of documents about the challenges we faced. It might help if there were
just more details out there rather than the few stories we pass along when a
post like this comes up.

Definitely easier now for the kids though - I've met 9 year old girls lately
who are rocking python/robot dev and if they can stay in all-girl schools
through secondary school (or have a very female-supported CS dept if mixed)
they'll have good chance of staying in STEM.

I also have to say, because this is fairly recent for me, I've become less and
less of a dev myself and more management and I'm having a blast. My years of
dev has really gelled with the demands on product development and I very much
enjoy the dynamics of running a team - something I never thought I'd find
interesting. So it's something quite new for me, and as I know it's more
common to see women building a career in management rather than thank of
themselves as part of the coding team but I can see clearly how having more
dev experience just makes you all the stronger. Might be a compelling argument
for those going through school with their eye on an executive position for
their future.

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oppositelock
The problem with getting women into tech is that so few women finish school
with a tech degree, so no matter what you do, there's going to be a huge
imbalance until this changes. It's very difficult to change career later in
life, for both men and women.

I think the greatest benefits come from getting girls excited about STEM
careers, but this is a much longer term approach. I'm really dismayed at the
peer pressure I see in school that steers boys and girls in different
directions, since this is something you have to fight at home and de-program
your children. Get your daughters a microscope, telescope, computer, whatever.
Use it with her, show her all the cool stuff in the world and talk about how
it works. Don't go for "girl-friendly" approaches, since IMO, those are
condescending. Treat her like a curious little scientist, not little Suzie
homemaker with a science hobby.

Having kids, it really pisses me off that people say boys are "smart, strong",
and that girls are "cute, friendly". Freaking double standard.

~~~
tptacek
I'm not sure why this is such a problem; a tech degree isn't necessary to be
successful as a software developer. It may not even be all that helpful.

~~~
tryanother
Agreed. I am only one data point, but i have no degree and I am a female dev.
We're out there.

~~~
tptacek
As data points go: male developer, serious systems programming background, 1
semester of college.

Maciej Ceglowski is, I think, even worse off than I am. He went to art school.
Now he controls the Internet from his perch atop Pinboard.

~~~
oppositelock
I've worked in this industry for a long time, and while I have worked with
fantastic self-taught developers from non-tech degrees, it seems to me that
they're the exception rather than the rule. I would not hesitate hiring
someone without a tech degree based on their experience, but they seem fairly
uncommon. Most of the developers I've worked with seem to come from CS/EE
backgrounds.

~~~
tptacek
Good developers are _all_ exceptions, not the rule. The majority of CS grads
are not in fact effective programmers.

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loumf
1\. Give money to organizations that are doing the work you want to support

2\. Get your company to give money

3\. Speak out when you see sexism

4\. When you are hiring, specifically reach out to women tech organizations (I
have a women's college in my town with a CS dept -- I made friends with the
Dean and some profs -- I send intern and job openings to them)

I think that there's work that you can do to increase the number of women
applicants, so I do it. By the way, these things help to increase diversity
along other dimensions, which you should also do.

~~~
tobz
#4 is a really great idea, and something I'll have to try and research. #1 -
#3 are very good, too, but #4 hits a chord with me for some reason.

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edoceo
I'm a male, I attend three Meetup events that are focused on
Women/Entrepreneur. I asked the organisers first if it would be cool to attend
- to avoid whiteknighting, I've been declined permission from others.

When attending I work hard to spend more time listening, hard for me, I love
my voice. Sometimes I relate stories how I would handle jerk coworkers or push
for things I want in the workplace. Feedback shows me that assertive women get
called names :(

This condescending behaviour is core issue that keeps women as 2nd class. You
don't need an organisation to work on the solution.

My new favourite hobby is to clown the shit out of males when I hear their
verbal diarrhoea. It works great. I get to take the moral high-road and insult
some dumbass for the entertainment of those around me. Win,win,win.

In our office gender, religious, ethnicity insults, or condescending actions
or language is taken seriously. Eg: telling someone to "stop being a bitch" or
a "that's gay" comment means you're buying lunch - a $200 offence. 3 strikes
and you're out.

So basically I'm saying: be excellent to each other and mock ignorance at the
top of your voice.

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hnal943
Get married, have kids, invest in their lives and share with them your passion
for technology. If you have daughters, they may choose tech.

~~~
tobz
My wife and I have chosen not to have children - for reasons personal to us.
That's why the outreach aspect (if I can't pass the torch along to my own, I
want to pass it off to _someone_ ) is big to me.

~~~
lobotryas
You can always adopt. That's a double-win: improve lives without growing the
population of Earth.

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nanoscopic
To get more women seriously involved into technology, you realistically need
to get more women to be unsocial and spend the majority of their lives planted
in front of a glowing computer screen.

The reality is not that "careers in computers" are too hard to get into, or
that we need them to be friendlier. In fact, I have personally found working
in computers to be generally unfriendly across the board. I welcome any
changes to make working in computers more attractive to women, because it
would make it appeal more to myself as well. Since I already work in the
field, it would just make the field better.

The fact is that a majority of women don't realistically want to be in the
field once they know the full story of what is required to succeed in it.

I am aware of the people who have had computer careers and found them
generally cheery, friendly, and easy, but I don't think this is the common
case.

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cmdrfred
I really think the key problem is interest. My girlfriend got her degree in
human resources for example while I didn't graduate high school and got a job
in IT. Most of the people in her class were women by a decent majority. They
could of went for computer science degrees, they prefered human resources,
Maybe its sort of a non-problem.

~~~
tryanother
This is an important point. While the industry isn't always super welcoming to
women, that isn't the whole problem. Lots of women just have other interests.
We'll probably see gender parity in IT when we see gender parity in nursing.

~~~
lobotryas
I would rephrase that further to say: are diverse interests between the
genders a problem?

I have never heard anyone complain that we have too few male teachers, nurses,
or airline attendants.

~~~
DanBC
> I have never heard anyone complain that we have too few male teachers,
> nurses, [...]

You haven't looked. Programmes exist to increase the number of male teachers
and male nurses.

~~~
tryanother
interesting. i'm guessing from your spelling of "programmes" that you are not
in the US - where are these programs you speak of? i'd be very interested in
reading about them.

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JSeymourATL
Mindset is important, shift your thinking from White Knight to Strategic
Agility.

Recruiting women to your team or company can be a huge competitive advantage,
especially given the growing importance of diversity and global markets. Keep
an eye out for the most talented women-- they will be your secret weapon.

~~~
tobz
(Full disclosure: I'm not part of our talent coordination / hiring efforts,
everything is anecdotal here)

A predominant amount of the applicants we see (we, as in, the people who are
told that there's a phone screen or interview to be done) are male. It feels,
strictly from my limited experience, that a big chunk of the problem is
finding qualified female applicants.

I'm not sure if it's a lack of female applicants period, or a lack of
qualified ones. This also goes back to me asking for real-world experience,
because I'm not even sure where to best focus my donations / efforts.

~~~
JSeymourATL
If you met someone who could use your company's product/service-- wouldn't you
put them in touch with the appropriate sales people?

Same applies to recruiting talent. If you recognize a high-potential
candidate-- help them connect with a hiring executive. You'll be seen by the
higher-ups as a Big Picture thinker. Unfortunately, myopic corporate HR staff
often fail to enlist the broader networks of existing employees.

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mgirdley
The best thing is to insist your tech employer interview female candidates.
Speak out if they don't.

The NFL has the "Rooney Rule" that has been instrumental in generating more
african american head coaches. Make your company have the same.

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jagawhowho
Retire to create less competition for them. Then spend money on software
contracts to create new seats.

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kj0das
Is this serious?

