
Brain-Gut Circuit Lets Microbiota Directly Affect the Sympathetic Nervous System - bookofjoe
https://www.technologynetworks.com/tn/news/brain-gut-circuit-lets-microbiota-directly-affect-our-sympathetic-nervous-system-338082
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Vaslo
The brain gut connection is incredible. For years I suffered with terrible IBS
where I would almost always get nauseous after eating and would often need to
immediately go to the bathroom. I also had a very difficult time gaining
weight. I tried all kinds of drugs - prescriptions to treat nausea,
malabsorption, even gastroparesis (slow emptying of the stomach). Nothing
worked and a few of the prescriptions were nerve wracking. One was the
original synthetic THC medicines that came out in the 80’s. Another one called
reglan can give you something called Tardive dyskinesia which is horrible and
incurable. All to just be able to eat normally and go to a movie afterwards.

I saw a doctor at one of the major medical centers and he knew my issue
immediately. After ruling out a few things via tests, he started me on a small
dose of very old tricyclic antidepressant called Nortriptyline. 25mg vs the
therapeutic dose of ~150-200mg. It almost instantly stopped my issues. They
cannot explain why it works, but he says it helps 2/3 of his fast gut patients
without the mood effects or other bad side effects that have made them fall
out of favor for newer drugs.

Just the idea that a simple pill can affect the gut by affecting the brain (or
is it vice versa?) is really profound and tells us how much more we need to
understand in the brain gut relationship.

~~~
nikkwong
Would you mind disclosing who the doctor was? I have been dealing with this
for years and it's been wreaking havoc on my personal and professional lives.
Doctors in my area are not familiar with my condition and don't have a
solution. I'm especially tired of the malabsorption, dietary restrictions,
sleeping issues, inability to gain weight, edema.. a whole laundry list. Would
love to hear your doctor's opinion.

I am not surprised that the brain-gut circuit affects the sympathetic nervous
system. I find that when my symptoms start getting very bad my heart rate
variability drops basically to 0 (with loud, thunderous heartbeats). When
things are good I don't notice my heartbeat whatsoever. Symptoms improve
basically when I stop eating.. which is not a treatment plan.

I find it strange that my gastroenterologist does not even contemplate cases
involving gut dysbiosis. I ask all of the relevant questions and the answer is
"dysbiosis is not something we treat". And he's a gastroenterologist for
christ's sake. He literally said to me "Get used to it. Some days you will
have good days and some days you will have bad days". Modern medicine for you.

~~~
starfallg
I had similar experiences, but with amitriptyline at the lowest dose of 10mg
taken every night. At 25mg I was too drowsy. It drastically improved all of my
chronic problems almost immediately - gut problems (IBS-D), inability to sleep
more than a few hours, and issues with peripheral nerves.

Amitriptyline has a slight sedative effect compared to nortriptyline, which is
good if you suffer problems with sleep, but has slightly more side effects.

I'm in the UK, and a GP at my previous clinic prescribed me this. Your doctor
should be able to also, there shouldn't be a need to see a specialist.

~~~
nikkwong
Wow that's so interesting. What problems were you experiencing with peripheral
nerves? I have also developed these problems recently. I had a colonoscopy
where I had to chug a bunch of polyethylene glycol and after that I've had
fluctuating levels of numbness (peripheral neuropahy? I am assuming) in both
of my hands. I have no idea the pathology here.. electrolyte problems? Docs
aren't even investigating.

My GPs seem to think I am insane and that this is all induced by "stress and
anxiety" since my bloodwork is for the most part normal—although in the past
months it's been teetering on the verge of becoming problematic in some areas.
Because of this, they write most of my symptoms off.

Was there something that you said specifically that caused them to prescribe
that or it was just after describing your symptoms? I feel like if I go in
saying "well I read about this SSRI on the internet"... instead the psych ward
is going to be their next prescription for me.

~~~
starfallg
I had those same issues with first numbness, then progressing to sore joints,
in the fingers and toes. Then it progressed to sore joints around the body.

It seems that the flare-ups heighten pain sensitivity in the peripheral nerves
in addition to the gut problems. My whole body feels 'raw' when it happens.

I have no idea on what the pathology is, but I expect it has a genetic
component. It seems that my gut has issues with the self-regulation of certain
neurotransmitters.

Over the past decade or more, I've tried nearly all of the other treatments
for IBS and none of them work. The peppermint oil capsules were the worse. It
was a complete waste of time and you walk around with the smell of toothpaste,
at least that's how it felt to me.

You can refer back to some credible information for patients like this here
from the NHS -

[https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/irritable-bowel-syndrome-
ibs/f...](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/irritable-bowel-syndrome-ibs/further-
help-and-support/)

Amitriptyline is clearly a treatment option for IBS there. Insist on it and
your doctor should have no reason to deny it to you unless you have a
contraindication.

If you're not in the UK, then there are other sources like this -

[https://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-
professionals/digestive-d...](https://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-
professionals/digestive-diseases/news/current-and-future-treatments-for-
ibs-d/mac-20429499)

Key takeaway from that article -

>In one trial, nearly 70 percent of patients receiving 10 mg of amitriptyline
experienced a complete loss of IBS symptoms compared with 28 percent of those
on placebo.

I guess I'm lucky and in that 70%. I hope you are as well. It's such a big
effect on my health, I wish I knew how to deal with it sooner.

~~~
nikkwong
Wow. Thank you. This is enlightening in ways that you cannot even imagine. For
example I thought maybe the gut problems had been causing other complications
which resulted in the neuropathy. Now, I can _maybe_ begin to look at the gut
issues as the sole catalyst here.

Anyways thank you so much. I will run this buy them and see what they say. Now
I have a new path to explore and some new found hope as my options were
running out.

~~~
starfallg
Hope everything goes well. IBS sucks but what sucks more is that a lot of
doctors still treat it as an inconvenience as opposed to an actual illness
that deserves proper attention.

~~~
nikkwong
Man, I've been taking Trazodone as per this comment for the last week (had
some extra laying around), and my IBS-C is basically gone. I've tried
everything and this is the first thing that has worked. Thank you so much for
your comment; this is a truly life changing paradigm for me. I hope it
continues, but I am feeling so much better than I have in a long time. I can't
thank you enough.

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ljnelson
Looks like the original story is here:
[https://www.rockefeller.edu/news/28643-bacteria-in-the-
gut-h...](https://www.rockefeller.edu/news/28643-bacteria-in-the-gut-have-a-
direct-line-to-the-brain/)

------
throwfaraway99
I've been having symptoms for years that have confounded all doctors I have
been to.

About 30 - 60 mins after eating (anything), in addition to bloating and
discomfort, I feel the most extremely incapacitating lows. We are talking what
I can only assume a depressive episode feels like.

Its like a wave comes over me, I have no joy in my head, no passion, no desire
for communication, I simply have to wait for it to pass, and eventually it
does, and I feel normal again in a few hours. There is nothing I can do to
make it pass earlier. Its as if the food's passage is causing it.

I don't have a eating disorder, ie I like food and comfortable with my body,
but really struggle with this. If anyone has had any thing similar I would be
very interested in communicating more.

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readthenotes
That little voice in your head begging for sugar? It's not in your head...

~~~
BLKNSLVR
18 months off sugar and I still have to consciously view dessert items as akin
to poison to quell the desire to eat all of them.

~~~
msandford
My dad's dad had a sweet tooth, my dad has one, and I do too.

About a month ago I resolved to eating at least 100g of protein per day
(1.2g/kg) to see if that wouldn't help me with some recovery and healing. It
was a real chore to eat that much. I would eat three eggs and black beans for
breakfast to get ~30g, then shoot for 30-40g for lunch and another 30-40g for
dinner. I was eating a lot of cottage cheese to make up the extra protein I
wasn't getting.

I was constantly so full I lost all desire for sweets. Not eating dessert is
effortless, probably in part because I'm beyond satiated.

~~~
andai
I tried eating just steaks for a few days, and it absolutely blew my mind (1)
how stable my energy was, how energetic I felt (2) how I wouldn't get hungry
at all for 8-10 hours. Normally I start thinking about food an hour or two
after eating!

~~~
pfundstein
The key to a good diet is balance. Too much red meat has equally severe health
implications, leading to a higher risk for heart disease, cancer, diabetes,
and premature death.[1][2]

[1] [https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/whats-the-
bee...](https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/whats-the-beef-with-
red-meat)

[2]
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26780279/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26780279/)

~~~
chrisco255
Mankind evolved to eat red meat. We developed fire for it. We invented spears
and bow hunting for it. It's one of the healthiest foods you can consume, has
been part of the human diet for over 2 million years... and besides the noted
protein, it contains B12, Zinc, Selenium, Iron, Niacin, B6, Phosphorous and
many other valuable nutrients. You can live exclusively off a diet of just red
meat and live a long, healthy life. Many tribes do, including the Maasai in
Kenya, the Sami in Finland, and the Inuit.

~~~
pfundstein
Mankind rarely lived beyond 25 until very recently so the long-term effects of
high red meat consumption have never been part of the evolutionary equation.
There have been numerous long term studies that have found strong links
between diseases, esp. heart disease, diabetes, cancer. These diseases take
years to manifest normally thus wouldn't have existed then.

Edit: s/didn't live/rarely lived/

~~~
phonypc
Life expectancy being 25 doesn't mean nobody lives past 25. Estimates that low
for early humans is skewed by huge infant mortality rates. IIRC living into
the 40s or 50s was typical for an early human that survived to adulthood. 60s
or 70s not uncommon.

~~~
pfundstein
>IIRC living into the 40s or 50s was typical for an early human that survived
to adulthood.

>60s or 70s not uncommon.

I would love to see the evidence you're referencing.

> Life expectancy being 25 doesn't mean nobody lives past 25.

You're absolutely right.

~~~
chrisco255
We can't actually tell the age of death of human fossils past the time that
wisdom teeth grow in. There's no way of telling whether a fossilized skeleton
was 30 at death or 50 at death. Even then, we don't necessarily have a
representative sample.

The Sami, as I mentioned, have been studied. They are a tribe of reindeer
herders in northern Scandinavia. They eat a diet consisting of almost
exclusively reindeer meat. They have lower cancer incidence than Finns
([https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ijc.10486](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ijc.10486)).

Hong Kong consumes more red meat per person than the U.S. and they have the
highest life expectancy in the world: [https://beef2live.com/story-world-beef-
consumption-per-capit...](https://beef2live.com/story-world-beef-consumption-
per-capita-ranking-countries-0-111634)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy)

~~~
tuukkah
_> They eat a diet consisting of almost exclusively reindeer meat._

Very far from a typical meat diet (quoting from your link):

" _The dietary habits of the Sami differ from those of the other Finns.
Reindeer meat (low in fat) and fish have been important foodstuffs in the diet
of Sami people. Intake of vegetables and fresh fruits has been low, but
berries were eaten, especially by the North Sami. Although nowadays dietary
habits have become more similar to that of the rest of the population, still
more than 90% of male Sami reindeer herders eat reindeer meat at least 3 times
a week and almost 50% eat fish at least twice a week. Reindeer meat and fish
contain high concentrations of healthy lipids, trace elements (e.g.,
selenium), minerals and vitamins. Arctic people usually rely on blood, liver
or kidneys from animals to obtain adequate nutrition._ "

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amai
That should go into the headline : "The research, conducted in mice..."

