
Ask HN: I'm Tired of Hacking. What Do I Do? Please Advise. - TiredOfCoding
I have been developing web apps for almost 8 years now. I worked at agencies, development shops, I freelanced, I was CTO of an startup, had the six figure salary, etc. I just can't do it anymore. I hate sitting on my ass all day writing some code. My neck has been hurting for two years for spending so many hours in  front of the computer. I kind of have been hating my career for a couple of years now and I have no clue about what I should do. I'm in my late 20's and I don't have a lot in savings left (six months of living costs at the most). I quit my job last year to work on a webapp of my own. I finished about 50% of it and haven't been working on it since. I got some freelance web maintenance work just to help cover some of my bills I get paid monthly and it's really easy stuff but I find it very boring as well and I wish I didn't have to spend any time working on it. I'm not lazy I just got tired of writing code and this industry in general. I always delivered the best work. In all of my previous jobs and was usually the best developer, engineer, etc.<p>Has anything like this happened to any of you?<p>What do you recommend I do?
======
mahmud
Take one month's expenses, move out your pad if you're renting and go teach
English overseas until you get your senses back.

Everyone needs their 2-years of fucking around backpacking before they hit 30.
I am just coming back from mine; 20 countries in 2 years and stories for a
life time. Cost me less than 10k a year to live like that.

Cheers!

~~~
wallflower
> I am just coming back from mine; 20 countries in 2 years

I'm curious. 1) Did you bring your own netbook/laptop along and 2) How well
are you handling your "re-entry" (e.g. hanging out with friends who knew you
pre-travel)?

~~~
mahmud
I took a laptop and a digital camera with me and ended up hating them every
step of the way. My first travels I did Africa and the middle-east, the second
I did asia.

In countries where I have "based" myself, anything more than 4 weeks; the
laptop has been a good useful distraction. When you're shocked by a local
culture which you have to deal with for extended survival (anything more
substantial than a western-style hotel and continental breakfast) you will end
up missing speaking your familiar language, eating familiar foods, or just
walking outside without a guide at hand (printed or in-flesh.) Also there is
that strong sense of alienation when everybody around you is _looking_ at you,
even you have been with them for weeks. In these times, firing up your
slackware box and seeing what you used to work on in more homely times is a
good psychological aid.

Cameras I didn't like. I hated being looked at and treated as a "foreigner",
and I feel like I am doing the same when I point a lens at a "local" person,
building or artifact. It felt like I was capturing their soul to take back
home with me as a novelty. I have no photos of my travels, but I have friends.
Hundreds of good friends from all walks of life; fishermen, priests, pimps,
students, political activists, drug traffickers, aid workers, moms, bicycle
repairmen, white-house staffers, journalists you name them.

Coming back was hard. I have lost 80lbs and came back with more street-sense
than I could imagine. When I landed at Dulles Airport I had $60 to my name and
I had the photo of a new girlfriend in my wallet. None of my family or friends
had the time to give me a ride home, so I took the bus, for the first time in
the U.S. Before then I have taken the bus a few times on nights-out when I
knew I wouldn't be fit to drive. This time it was just what I was used to do.
My instincts where different; I took a window seat in the way back that was
close to an exit door. Something that you do when traveling in dangerous
places (you don't sit in the front, or police and bandits will pull over the
bus and shake you up for bribes; and you don't sit sandwitched between two
locals, unable to escape.)

I also came back with 2pack a day cigarette habit. Hi alcohol tolerance. A
very unprofessional appearance. An appetite for anything served to me on a
plate. A habit of carrying a bag with basic survival necessities. Indifference
to crashing anywhere. Hitching rides with total strangers. And finally, a
weird ability to connect with people in the underworld.

My first few gigs have been freelancing gigs doing anything and everything. It
took my girlfriend the last few months polishing up back to shape; I don't
think I would have come back if it wasn't for her, actually. I have seen many
long-time Western expats dying in local hospitals of controllable diseases;
the ex-military Americans are most prone to this. Diabetes, high-blood
pressure, liver problems; I have pitch in $5 donations to so many expats in
hospitals I didn't want to be one of them.

Allot of stuff, most of it unfit to print.

~~~
yan
That's beautiful. Are you still in the DC area? We should get a few people
from HN for some beers.

~~~
RKlophaus
You have inspired me to create a Hacker News meetup group:

<http://www.meetup.com/Hacker-News-NOVA-DC/>

Get on board if you live in the DC metro area.

~~~
mahmud
Nice! just replied to your email as well :-)

------
larsberg
Find a place to work where you're _not_ the best developer, engineer, etc.
It's more fun when you're learning.

~~~
lallysingh
Agreed, boredom comes from lack of challenge. There's lots of non-challenge
available in day-to-day web development.

------
edw519
"My neck has been hurting for two years for spending so many hours in front of
the computer."

Is is possible that you feel crappy and are blaming your work environment?

I've been sitting in front of a computer for 30 years and my neck _never_
hurts. In fact, nothing does.

No matter what you decide, you _must_ take care of yourself. If you don't feel
well, you won't be happy doing anything. There are many references on the web
on what to do, some excellent and some horrible. I'd be happy to share what I
do to feel great if anyone is interested.

~~~
TheSOB88
Yes, share what you do to feel great.

~~~
edw519
Exercise:

I have scoliosis and I've tried everything for sore back and neck. Nothing has
worked as well as the 5 Rites every morning before breakfast. I think #3 has
helped me the most, but who knows. I'll leave the secret with the ancients. I
do these _every_ day.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Tibetan_Rites>

In addition to that, the usual:

\- get my heart rate into the training zone (140 to 170 BPM) for 30-40 minutes
3 to 6 times per week (jogging, stairs)

\- heavyhands

\- shovelglove <http://www.shovelglove.com/>

\- chin-ups, pushups, dips

\- Hindu squats <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuyAdr4RKsY> Do 500 of these
every day and you'll be in the best shape of your life

That's it. I don't spend much money, but I do _something_ every day.

Eating:

This is more (un)common sense that anything else. My 2 favorites:

[http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020121horne/02...](http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020121horne/020121toc.html)

[http://www.amazon.com/Eat-Live-Revolutionary-Formula-
Sustain...](http://www.amazon.com/Eat-Live-Revolutionary-Formula-
Sustained/dp/0316735507/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1243470286&sr=8-1)

~~~
hs
i got scoliosis too, and i went to chinese medical master (he also does
accupuncture) that specializes in massaging and bones structure

he didn't use any equipment. i was to sit on a chair, knee/shin next to each
other. an assistant locks the knees by hugging using both hands so my body
cannot move easily.

he then 'measured' my backbone and then stretched my arm, twisted my back
based on his initial estimate and then do the measure-stretch-twist loop. it
took him quite considerable force (he's sweating)

the whole process took about an hour and must be done in many visits (mine's
3), depending on severity

i felt better but cannot provide statistics/numbers; however, my cousin can.
her father is a modern doctor who cannot believe ancient chinese methods. he
took x-rays after each visit. he told me that during 2 weeks of therapy, her
scoliosis improved from 40deg to 20deg.

i want to visit the chinese medical man again, it's been more than 2 years.
there's no 'cure' or 'pills'. i believe if i do better pose i won't need to go
visiting him again ... but i'm as uneducated as layman about correct posture
so i always revert back to old problems

if you have resources on this please share. the hindu squat looks very tiring
-- 500 of these in one go?

btw i'm now using stand-up desk (like a week or so) and my back, heel, ankle
and toes are aching and cramping. is it to be expected especially for
scoliosis guys? after feeling pain, i just sit for a while. i guess after a
while i'll develop endurance

thx for the links

------
uptown
Get a:

a) Girlfriend b) Dog c) A hobby that doesn't involve electricity

Allow your job to become just one part of your life ... not what defines your
life.

~~~
chez17
Getting a dog has completely turned my life around. I wasn't uber depressed
before, but I had some days where basically looking at the news made me so
disgusted to be a human, I could hardly work. I was working at home, living at
home, hanging out at home, etc... Get a dog, get outside 3 or 4 times a day.
Having a little creature be so happy to see you every time you walk through
the door he can barely contain himself ALWAYS puts a smile on your face.
Obviously, you know yourself better than I do, but a dog would be my
suggestion. It makes everything better, life and work.

~~~
PStamatiou
Well put!

I adopted a black labrador puppy last thursday. She's 3 months old and she's
pulling me outside 6 times a day! We spent 2 hours at the park today because
she kept laying down on the grass during the walk home. Quite a difference
from those "err i havent been outside in 3 days" scenarios.

pics here: <http://www.flickr.com/photos/pauls>

~~~
uptown
Cute pup ... Good luck with her. Here's mine:
[http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3014/2759237541_1d360e7795_b....](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3014/2759237541_1d360e7795_b.jpg)

------
Adrenalist
Sounds like a case of burnout to me. I think a lot of people would envy your
position, especially given today's economic climate. Without knowing anything
of your situation, except that you don't want to work on computers any longer,
I'd suggest taking a step back and really analyze your situation. Have a
serious conversation about your immediate future with someone that you respect
(parent, mentor, older friends/siblings, fellow hackers) and see what they'd
say about your life, in general. Also, get out and socialize more. You
obviously have a knack for putting together successful projects, so use those
skills to help other people out. You will feel better about lending your
skills and time to someone less fortunate.

Also, read some books? The 4 hour work week comes immediately to mind. You
haven't defined success for YOUR life yet, it seems to me.

~~~
swolchok
I find it interesting that "spouse" or "significant other" was not in the
"someone that you respect" list.

~~~
Adrenalist
For some reason, I pictured the original poster as single.

------
tjic
It's spring.

Go hike the Appalachian trail all summer.

You living expenses will be food + replacement socks + fuel for your camp
stove.

Four months from now, you'll be wonderfully destressed, and will have barely
touched your savings.

~~~
spoiledtechie
Awesome Idea!

~~~
huherto
Yes! Anything closer to El Paso TX?

~~~
Xichekolas
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Divide_Trail>

Also useful: [http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/Backpacking-and-
Hiking...](http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/Backpacking-and-Hiking-
documents/cdt_doc.html)

~~~
huherto
This is why I love HN.

Last weekend we went to Matacanes near Monterrey, Mexico. It was a great trip.
I went with a group of 8 hackers from work. Turns out the other 10 people in
the trip were also hackers.

------
haseman
Go to the gym every morning. Ride a bike, get active. For some reason an 8-10
hour day in a chair is nearly unbearable unless I've done some sort of
activity in the mornings. It may be a low risk thing to try.

------
oliverkofoed
You're gonna live a long time, you've got time to change direction. Find a
junior job doing something completely different, or even start studying
something, anything.

Only things that can happen are that you become happy for you new job, or you
fall back in love with programming.

Another option: I know an illustrator who was getting tired of the endless
line of demanding clients wanting the same old work, so she decided to spice
it up by taking internships one week of every month. She tries to make the
internships as different as possible, examples being a baker, a clothing shop,
some print/dtp shop, etc.

Maybe that could be a less radical way of getting some fresh perspective.

~~~
jganetsk
Yes. Most of the people giving advice on this thread assume that programming
is, ultimately, the right choice for this person. It might just be the case
that programming is the wrong profession.

------
mattdennewitz
welcome to burnout. its absolute hell. before depression sets in and you
become irreversibly emotionally detached and drained, you _have_ to branch
into hobbies that bookend your life as a hacker.

personal advice: buy a synthesizer or a nice digital camera. or a bike (but
you have to use it though, that part is _key_ , my friend. _key_.)

professional advice: use a reasonable chunk of your vacation time and money
and get out of town for a week or two, sans computer. dont stop thinking about
what you want to accomplish with hacking away, just learn to prioritize
thinking about it, and to be a little more clear-minded. i find walking about
from something for a week both annoys the hell of out everyone around me (not
so good) and gives me the presence of mind and matured sense of whats do to
and how to do it that i can walk back in and, well, do it.

just find the hobbies and then find the balance.

~~~
mattdennewitz
something i forgot to mention the first time: i started playing fantasy
baseball with some friends who are really into it, and its been a blast. its
also a huge stress reliever for most of the folks involved. definitely not for
everyone, but it works for us.

------
synnik
Yes, this has happened to me. I found a part-time gig, and worked 20 hours a
week, while hiking in the Rockies with all of my free time. I then
disconnected completely, and did manual labor for a year.

In short, turn off the computer. Find other interests. Determine your true
priorities. Once you have done that, you will likely be able to come back and
enjoy technology again because it will be supporting your true self, not
defining your self.

------
kingkawn
Do Emergency Medical Technican Basic training at your local community college.
Most places have night classes that can be completed in about 3 months.
Usually you can find a job or volunteer, and before you know it you'll be
faced with life or death situations. Its much easier that going to Iraq to
escape it all.

------
keefe
Dude, it sounds like you are really stressed out. Consider the situation you
are in (eerily similar to my own, but I haven't left to work on my webapp yet)
: lots of job hopping, obvious talent for CS, staring in frustration at being
unable to execute a dream, bit of money saved up. I think you need to
recognize that you are in a transition period in life and that life is about
your emotions and your body as well as your intellect and your wallet. First
off, take a yoga class TOMORROW and learn to relax and look at ergonomics info
to learn how to avoid neck strain. You're unlikely to make your way out of a
desk job if you want a decent life in this day and age. Allow yourself to be
completely passive, to attain the beginner's mind and look at the world with
no judgement or preconception. You don't need to make a decision now or
tomorrow. I think you're burnt out. Relax for a month and do nothing but take
things IN don't try to put anything OUT. Rejuvenate and refresh, think about
your life. Have a few drinks or whatever turns you on. After a few weeks, take
stock and realize you only have so many options ahead of you to make money and
live a nice life. Pick the best one, make a plan and then execute on it. Make
sure it is realistic and can be pulled off (at least a visible stage 1) in 3
months. If you go back to CS don't be afraid to watch some lectures on
academicearth to make sure your bases are sound. Good luck!

------
caffeine
If you play an instrument, then make music! It's time for you to join a band
and hit the road, my friend.

If you have a passport, as others have said, get the hell out of dodge. Get
your shots though, you don't want to come back with broken kidneys.

Have you considered attending Hedonism II? It's a lot of fun...

~~~
J_McQuade
I can't recommend this first point enough - keeping a banjo next to my desk at
all times has done wonders for my mental wherewithal.

It is impossible to feel frustrated while playing a banjo - FACT.

~~~
philwelch
Even if you suck at playing banjo?

------
sri
Try something totally different. It could be a totally different technology:
say Ruby on Rails or maybe Flex/Flash & Actionscript. How about becoming a
designer? Something you have never considered before or never thought of as
worthwhile. Something that brings back the "lightness" feeling you seem to be
missing.

~~~
matth2
I think change is certainly key as the catalyst for a turn around your state
of mind.

That said, from my experience, I wouldn't expect to ever have an immediate,
deep psychological turn around in response to any particular change, even a
radical one - it always takes time. But change is key.

Some common wisdom: It's easy to be scared of change - often easier to deal
with a bad situation - not even really realize it's that bad - than face the
unknown. But the unknown is almost always not as bad as you think.

------
logic
I was, and still am, in a similar situation.

I picked up the requisite non-tech hobby that I'm now quite passionate about:
in my case, it was automotive modification and racing. I have a veritable
performance shop in my garage now: I taught myself welding and metal
fabrication, aerodynamics, fluid dynamics, engine performance, fuel delivery,
and a host of other skills. I even came back around to the tech side of things
by getting involved in electronic engine management (reflashing and
reprogramming OEM ECUs, logging, performance tuning, etc). It's exciting
stuff, and introduced me to a very different community of people than I'd
previously known.

Echoing some of the other comments here: I married a woman who is possibly the
perfect companion for me, something I try very hard to be for her. We also
have two dogs, another item I saw mentioned, and they've been a joy.

After all that, I still spend 8 hours (minimum) each day doing work that has
lost it's lustre. When I started my career, there was exciting work to do: in
1994, my cohorts and I started an ISP. I did work in that vein for about six
years, and it was some of the best years of my career (my personal life was a
shambles, but the work was incredible). Today, that's reversed: I have a rich
private life, but the work is dull.

So, my long and winding road to a point: the suggestions to get a "significant
other", pet, and non-tech hobby, while well-intentioned, won't actually fix
your problem. Certainly, take a bit of time off and decompress to make sure
you're not just in need of a vacation, but that's essentially what you've
already done. And the fact that you have neck pain is significant: you should
certainly get that addressed before making substantial changes that might not
be necessary afterward.

But, at the end of the day, you'll still have a problem with being bored of
the work you're doing, and you can only fix that by finding new work to do:
either new problems/niches in your current field that you haven't tackled
before, or start looking in the direction of fields that you can get
passionate about.

------
icey
Do you know what you'd rather be doing instead of writing software?

Because, if you do, then you should probably make a list for yourself. On that
list you do this:

#1: Job I don't like.

#10: Job I want.

Steps #2 through #9 should be the next N things you need to do to do whatever
it is you'd rather be doing.

Software is not the only place for smart people to work, a lot of people burn
out or discover that it's just the wrong career for them.

Don't force yourself to work in an industry that you don't like. You're young,
and it's far better to work towards something different now instead of wasting
away doing something you hate.

Fortunately for you, the world rewards smart people these days; regardless of
the field. You'll do fine anywhere if you did fine in software.

~~~
warfangle
It's good to do this in opposite order. IE, list "Job I Want," and then list
the steps you need to take to attain it, backwards. It's easier to start from
the end and work backwards, when planning, than starting from a blank slate.

------
pkaler
Start by fixing the physical pain. I started getting pain from sitting 12+
hours in a chair, too.

I improved my posture by taking Alexander Technique classes.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Technique>
<http://www.vancouveralexandertechnique.com/>

Then I improved my flexibility by taking up yoga. I've dropped 25 pounds since
last summer.

Figure out the "mental" stuff and existential angst after you get physically
healthy.

~~~
pageman
and do some PNF stretching :) <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNF_stretching>

------
jlees
Totally second the travel, move to a strange place, do something random like
work in events, theatre, a coffee shop, meet new people, get stories. I was in
a similar depressed/burnt out situation & moved and it totally rebooted my
life.

Could also try moving away from CTO to a CEO type role if you want to stay in
web/startups without the coding. Loads to learn, plenty of cool people to meet
and very intellectually stimulating.

------
revdmv
I'm certain you'll get this comment in spades, but as a relatively young an
unencumbered person you should go away and do something else.

I spent a year on "sabbatical" in my mid-20's after being laid off from
another company with a great future that didn't quite get there. Best thing I
have done.

Did traveling, volunteer work, odd jobs to earn extra cash.

There is nothing as refreshing as not only not knowing the date, but what day
of the week it is.

------
imd
Sort of a meta-comment, but why do "Ask" threads on websites like HN rarely
have the OP participating in the discussion beyond the original post?

~~~
pageman
maybe the OP is taking everything to heart? :)

------
delano
Don't burn your bridges and get a manual labour job for a few months.

------
taelor
Well I personally like to bartend when I'm not hacking. I find it really helps
me reload. It's great, I get to be super social and make money. Its not even
really like work.

And its great when your talking to girls cause you can make yourself sound
like a super hero, "Yah, I'm a hacker by day, bartender by night!" Chicks dig
super heroes.

------
dlevine
I was in a similar situation a few years ago. I worked for a couple of top
software companies, and had a job that most people would have loved. But,
somehow I was unsatisfied. It got harder and harder to do productive work.
After some soul searching, my conclusion was that I just didn't want to be an
engineer.

I decided to go to business school. Two years later, I'm graduating and
starting a software company. But I have a new set of tools and contacts that I
didn't have before, as well as a different perspective on business. I'm
looking forward to doing things other than just coding (although I'm going to
have to write some code, since there are only three of us).

Have you considered grad school? A lot of ex-engineers do well in finance or
law. Business school in particular gives you two years to explore potential
job options and figure out what you want to do with your life.

------
quellhorst
Quit hacking? You should know better what to do with your life than anyone
else. Find what you love.

------
zenocon
Yea - so, I have a family which eats up a lot of my time, but beyond that, not
long ago I would spend all my living free minutes reading tech books and
writing code on projects I never finished...really just to keep myself sharp.
I've done this for 10 or so years. It was a passion/obsession, whatever. In
some strange twist of events, I've been listening to a lot of dubstep lately,
and I just decided I wanted to create my own for fun. So, instead of reading
textbook X all day, I bought some music software and now I'm trying to learn
how to create my own musical compositions on the 'puter. It is the most fun I
have had since I can't remember when.

------
charlesju
This is such an awesome post!

I am doing fairly well too and I have hit this exact same problem. My plan of
attack is 5 prong, feel free to use any of them.

1\. Minimize visual stimulation outside of work hours. No computers, no
reading, no tv.

2\. Pick up hobbies that require you to socialize or be active. My personal
ones are; golf, tennis, basketball, yoga, running a marathon.

3\. Dog! I just put a deposit on my own labradoodle, I think it will help me
get out more.

4\. Study happiness. Just the act of reading self-help books actually makes
you more happy. I'm almost done with the Happiness Hypothesis and I'm about to
start Feeling Good.

5\. I just started dating a girl, and that has been nice too. Just stray from
the dinner and a movie dates.

------
aditya
Go to school, and learn a new skill, something that has always fascinated you
but that you've never pursued. Meet new people, expand your horizons. Defer
your student loans.

Also, if you're good at what you do (and it seems like you are) - you'll
probably end up coming back to it, but just need the time out to recharge and
refresh, or maybe you'll just become a painter because of all the talent you
had that you never discovered earlier because you were too busy writing code.

Best of luck.

------
bjmarte
Stop

------
kqr2
Recent thread of burnout may have some helpful advice:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=626616>

------
jonah
A List Apart just posted an article on burnout:
<http://www.alistapart.com/articles/burnout/>

[edit: dupe sorry.] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=626616>

------
chanux
Happened to me, though I'm not having a long history like you. Every once in a
while I get that exhausted feeling. But fortunately my mind says what should I
do. Mostly it's going to parents, go & meet non-techy friends, going on a trip
to countryside etc.

------
vorador
How about learning something else ? You've got time, why don't you learn a
musical instrument ?

------
juliend2
1-Take a long walk (walking helps a _lot_ to think about problems)

2-If you find a library, stroll inside

3-Find a book or two by using your immediate taste/intuition. anything will
suffice.

4-Let it flow. You will eventually find something to do.

I would be very surprised if you don't find anything this way.

------
progLiker
I'd recommend some hard physical work, be prepared not to work amongst your
peers, but do level with them. It can be most rewarding doing physical work,
and see society through different eyes for a while.

------
Dilpil
If you want to apply your quantitative skills to a more active outdoor
environment, you could consider some type of structural or civil engineering.

------
jtuyen
make random things. use your creative side and have fun with it. I do it all
the time when I'm struggling with a problem or taking a short break.

------
jokull
Read "Scar Tissue" (Anthony Kiedis' autobiography)

~~~
njoubert
I'd actually second this. He faced several periods of pretty intense change in
his life, and he was battling his drug addictions, and his experiences are
pretty ridiculous and very inspiring. Also, when it comes to living on a
shoestring, this guy's got it down.

------
khangtoh
Work on an IPhone game instead :)

------
ahoyhere
Take a break, dude. You don't have to backpack around questionable countries
but 6 mos of living expenses will give you a comfy stay in lots of places.

I spent 6 weeks in New Zealand last year, almost totally offline. NZ is super
cheap right now, safe, and they speak English... not a huge culture clash, but
still different, and most importantly, far away.

If you're constantly cramming your life up with things and activities, you
can't hear the little voice inside you that is trying to guide you. You need
quiet, space, a break.

You might come back feeling rejuvenated and excited to do what you've been
doing (altho perhaps a different approach). You might realize finally that
it's really not for you, and get an idea of what might be.

Either way, it's scary but worth it.

------
sarvesh
Travel, take a break. Seems like burntout and you need to take a vacation and
then decide whether you really want to quit this industry.

------
symlogic
I don't think you were as successful as you made it out to seem. Shouldn't you
have a nice cushion to sit upon and practically retire (:

