

Ask HN: Anyone read Tibetan Book of Living and Dying? - rblion

Just curious. I've met a lot of interesting people through this discussions about this book.
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kunley
This book is actually a tibetan manual for a dying person on how to proceed
with his mind during the process. It's not a poem nor mystical metaphore about
anything not related to dying.

One of the translations of the original sub-title is: "the precious way of
liberation through listening", meaning that the purpose was to read it to the
dying person in order to liberate his mind from the subconscious baggage which
resurfaces and takes over during dying.

The images, scenes and dramatis personae (including gods, demons and stuff)
occuring in the text are all projections of the subconscious impressions in
mind, accumulated during a life and resurfacing when dying. The fact that this
is not explained in the book is because every tibetan buddhist knows / takes
for granted that mind works this way, so there's no need to explain it
additionally.

The other funny thing and a source of misconception is the translation: while
tibetan culture was perceived inferior, mystical and over-religious by
westerners, it was actually discovering lots of stuff about consciousness and
subconsciousness since centuries, same as the whole buddhism. But the western
discoverers couldn't believe that tibetans, being technologically inferior,
were able to make a progress in different areas, so when translating they
didn't used then-new terminology like counsciousness and stuff, but used
church-like terminology like if they were translating european middle-ages
material. This trend, though diminishing, continues to this day.

My advice is to remember this book was written for different people and then
translated using language and metaphors the translators could bear. Yet since
70s some people made a huge advance of making a connection between asian and
western way of thinking in order to bring the buddhist methods to the west,
cutting off the misconceptions and cultural baggages. Such teachers, whether
would they be Zen or Diamond Way representatives, can teach practical stuff on
what to do during dying or how to help dying people in our modern world. If
anyone's interested I'd reach such teachers instead of taking such books too
seriously.

~~~
rblion
Nothing is permanent and we are all dying people, if you really think about
it.

The book is about shedding all the layers of delusion that separate man from
the universe.

Einstein believed Buddhism would be an ideal candidate for a universal
religion for lifeforms outside of Earth too.

What I got from the book is a simple way to focus on the immaterial instead of
the material. To see the entire universe with consciousness and compassion
instead of an expanse to be colonized and conquered.

I think the world is just reaching a point where the Eastern and Western
perspectives are starting to become one. The 21st century is the dawn of the
universal age where we all start to realize we are made of equal atoms and
cells striving for survival and transcendence.

This book seems to be in tune with modern science journals too.

~~~
kunley
I'm happy this book inspired you into some thinking. The question is, how is
it going to practically change your life in a long term?

I'm making this point just to strike a common misconception, not that you're
certainly in it, but for anyone reading this thread. People often have an
impression that buddhism is mystical, it says about all things being one and
that if they got into it seriously they would be given next levels of
beautiful thoughts and ideas up to the final nirvana.

It's not like that at all. Buddhism is practical. Deadly practical. Meaning
one has to fight his own limitations first. You get some meditations and
instructions from a teacher, usually tied specifically to you, and you do
meditate. It changes you. Ego fights back. But if you continue the practice
you loose some previous obstacles and in general you see a new value in your
relations with people, your view, in everyday things. Then another obstacles
come, and so on.

The crucial are meditations from a teacher - it all makes sense only when you
trust him. The trust must be earned somehow, it's not measurable. One of the
meditations is a conscious dying meditation which I for example relearn every
year. Others work best if you repeat them every day. It changes you
inevitably. There's no warranty it will change you for the good, but you
observe yourself. You observe the mind. It's a constant work, meant to finally
relax you not tire you, though.

All this sweat is for understanding that everything we feel and see, including
material world, is only a projection of the mind, so it's best to focus on
mind itself instead of images which it mirrors. And keep this view possibly
all the time.

Of course this view is kinda related to recent discoveries of science, esp.
quantum physics and so on. But what does it mean in an everyday life? Did
Einstein had a hunch buddhism is related to physics and is probably very
useful? Yes. Did he follow that path? No. Did he remember in every minute of
his life that things are impermanent and world is a dream? Probably not. Was
he impervious to anger because of that understanding? Probably not. Some
people say he was terrible person, others say he was excellent and nice.
Whatever. Einstein's words may be a trampoline for someone to become
interested in buddhism but he's no expert on the topic.

So, to really judge if it works it'd best to actually find the people who do
it, or even know such people and compare how they behaved in the past and how
they behave now. I know it's not easy. But Einstein, well, is dead... We're
not, yet.

edit: Thank you HNers if you read this, these are important things and it
seemed urgent to share my few cents.

~~~
rblion
I'm 20 and I have been interested in science, technology, and spirituality for
as long as I can remember. I've seen a lot of life and a lot of death in my
years of wandering in the West. I guess that's why this book resonated with
me.

To me, Buddhist thought just makes logical and intuitive sense with everything
I have studied about astronomy, physics, biology, and chemistry. It just feels
natural and has no arrogance about it, just a gentle affirmation of life and
love. It also shows the darkness inside us and how to conquer it with mental
force, not physical force.

Buddhanature, from my experience, is about fully embracing life and
transforming your suffering into potential. And the most practical way to
achieve this goal is to have a clear vision of reality, live in accordance
with natural principles, and keep developing your mental capabilities.

I fully agree that Buddhism is not about anything mystical and that people
overthink and project a lot of madness into it. The only thing people can do
is keep striving, there is no higher goal than enlightenment.

------
rudin
Just a warning who anybody thinks the book is ancient and "gutenbergable" (as
the name kind of implies). Don't bother, it is only 10 years old.

~~~
rblion
the ideas are ancient and they still resonate today. the author never claims
they are all original either.

------
pavlov
I haven't read the book, but I've seen the new movie _Enter the Void_ by
Gaspar Noé, which pretends to be a kind of dramatization of the Tibetan post-
death myth. One of the most unique films I've ever seen.

~~~
rblion
sounds interesting. ill look that up.

------
GiraffeNecktie
Just wanted to note that some people are confusing the recent _Tibetan Book of
Living and Dying_
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tibetan_Book_of_Living_and_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tibetan_Book_of_Living_and_Dying)
with the ancient _Tibetan Book of the Dead_
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_book_of_the_dead>

~~~
rblion
The latter is the source of the material covered in the first. Dalai Lama
introduces the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying.

------
hunterjrj
After reading it I began to research Sogyal Rinpoche and came across the
allegation that he had abused his position and assaulted a woman.

[http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6...](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6638586.ece)

Definitely tainted the advice presented in the book: "Do as I say, not as I
do", etc.

~~~
rblion
the message, not the messenger.

you didn't gain anything positive from the book?

~~~
hunterjrj
Tricky question. The sections that describe the process of dying were
fascinating, especially those sections that describe the grand luminosity. I
found the message behind the ideas and processes he describes very positive.

However, Sogyal Rinpoche's message about compassion seems a little thin to me
in light of the allegation. He is accused of abusing his position to coerce
followers into a sexual relationship. Doesn't seem compassionate to me.

I'll admit that I've judged the man based solely on accusations and
intimations. But the accusations are strong and are repeated. I encourage you
to read the article I linked in my original response.

~~~
rblion
I wouldn't doubt it if he did fall to his primal urges. It's the human thing
to do. The predator and prey games play out everywhere in society and in most
instances, no one is really thinking about it.

~~~
hunterjrj
Thats an interesting argument. Let me apply it to a different situation: A
priest coerces an altar boy into a sexual act. The priest will certainly argue
that he succumbed to a primal urge, that he is only human, etc. Can you attend
his Sunday mass and digest the message that he is sending strictly in context,
completely ignoring what the man has done?

I'm not trying to provoke with the above, I'm just pointing out that the
argument doesn't hold water if you look at it in its strictest terms and apply
it universally.

This is what turned me off the book and its also what turned me off the
writings of Jiddhu Krishnamurti (accused of committing adultery with his best
friend's wife).

I'd be glad to continue discussing this with you outside of HN. Feel free to
email me at jrhunter at hotmail dot com

~~~
rblion
It's not an excuse to do whatever you want, I just meant it as people get into
odd situations and strange things happen.

I just think about the message and let people be people. human nature is a
wild elephant.

~~~
hunterjrj
"Human nature is a wild elephant."

Agreed.

I also like, "“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do
not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do
not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious
books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and
elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for
many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that
anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one
and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

~~~
PemaChotse
Hello -- I am the journalist who wrote the feature in The Guardian newspaper
in 1995, following the Janice Doe lawsuit against Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche .
Since then I have been assembling evidence of Sogyal's promiscuous, sadistic
sexual depravity and now have an extensive dossier of corroborated
testimonies. There is not a scintilla of doubt that the allegations you see on
the internet are truthful and accurate.

------
jasonwatkinspdx
Once a long time ago. I recall some of being quite striking, but these days
I'm (overly?) cynical about things that have the scent of mysticism.

~~~
rblion
Me too. I avoid New Age-y books altogether. This is one gem in a pile of
rhinestones. This wisdom in this book seems to be in universal in nature and
applies to all atoms, cells, being, and stars.

~~~
naradaellis
I also think that the Tao Te Ching (and Chuang Tzu in the same vein, and Alan
Watts for a modern take) is amazingly applicable to life today and is
surprisingly not that New Age-y.

~~~
rblion
Read this book: [http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Physics-Exploration-Parallels-
Myst...](http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Physics-Exploration-Parallels-
Mysticism/dp/1590308352/ref=pd_sim_b_16)

~~~
naradaellis
I got very excited a while a go when I found out that this book existed, and
that it was Capra who wrote it (the Web of Life was great), but the top amazon
reviews at the time were pretty disparaging. Looks like the top reviews have
shifted since last time I was there though, I'll probably give it a try.

------
mindcrime
Not yet. I bought a copy over a year ago, but it's still in my queue. My only
real exposure to Eastern thought, Buddhism, etc. have been the books
"Introduction to Zen Buddhism" and "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind."

------
codedivine
Yes I did. Fantastic book.

edit: Has been some time though.

------
eof
I read it years ago in college and took it as a metaphor for a psychedelic
experience. No surprise I was having a lot of psychedelic experiences at that
point in my life.

To be clear, I don't think that it was literally meant for tripping folk, but
I also think kunley (top rated comment at the moment) may have missed
something fundamental maybe due perhaps to not grasping a fundamental part of
tibetan and buddhist culture.

To the Buddhist, the whole of existence is a struggle between experiencing the
perfection of the cosmos as your bona fide identity and your mundane ego.
Liberation is not something for those on their death bed, liberation is _the
thing to strive for._

\-- well I was writing about 'The tibetan book of the dead' I have never heard
of this particular book, I just realized. I figure I will just leave this here
in case anyone is interested rather than just delete it.

~~~
rblion
I think Steve Jobs, Jason Fried and many other design geeks can relate to this
experience in their developing years.

It is what it is. Psychedelic means mind-manifesting so the two should go hand
in hand anyways. I think people just overthink enlightenment and miss how
simple the universe really is. Ancient wisdom and modern science are coming
together and revealing the same truths.

Read this book: [http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Physics-Exploration-Parallels-
Myst...](http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Physics-Exploration-Parallels-
Mysticism/dp/1590308352/ref=pd_sim_b_16)

~~~
eof
I'll try and get a copy of that locally and add it to my list in any case.

I have read a number of books trying to tie the link between ancient
mysticicsm and modern physics. I am not a physicist and have only the most
basic understanding of the maths involved in quantum systems.

However, without fail, these ideas seem pretty much universally dismissed by
the graduate level math and physics students I have had the opportunity to
talk with these things about.

No one wants to let go of determinism it seems.

