
Should We Torture Suspected Terrorists? - davidf18
http://www.paulekman.com/blog/torture-suspected-terrorists/
======
krapp
Let's not pretend that the arguments around torture actually have anything to
do with interrogation - the value of torture in providing accurate information
has been roundly and thoroughly debunked by now.

Some people want to torture terror suspects because they want suspected
terrorists to suffer, and they want the government to be willing to make them
suffer. Let's just admit that - it's about nothing more than the desire for
simple retribution and sadism.

------
davidf18
Disclosure: At the last minute I escaped a terrorist attack in Israel when I
purchased a candy bar at a local store.
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Jerusalem_vehicular_attac...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Jerusalem_vehicular_attack))

Dr. Paul Ekman is a worthy researcher, who studied facial expressions and has
worked with the Dali Lama. The TV series, Lie to Me (now on Netflix) is
wonderful and fun.

I was at Columbia University when the World Trade Center was struck. I used to
work in a building across the street from the WTC. I could see the smoke down
Broadway (Ave) from the WTC. Now there is a memorial (and an Apple Store will
soon be on the site).

So, if torture would have prevented 9/11 should we have done the torture or
should we have let 9/11 happen?

To me it is simple. Every single life is important. Ekman argues that while
torture may prevent some terrorism it is not perfect. But, no intervention is
perfect. Because surgery is not 100% in saving a life from a traffic accident,
does that mean we don't do the surgery?

Instead of writing a blog post about torturing to save lives from terrorism,
Dr. Ekman should visit with loved ones of victims of 9/11, and of terrorist
attacks in Israel, France, ..... After speaking with 9/11 loved ones of
victims, he could visit the loved ones of about a dozen teenage girls that
were killed waiting in line to go dancing.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphinarium_discotheque_massa...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphinarium_discotheque_massacre)

Empathy is really important. I'm surprised at this blog post.

~~~
dragonwriter
> So, if torture would have prevented 9/11 should we have done the torture or
> should we have let 9/11 happen?

The problem with these kind of "if torture would prevent..." scenarios is that
there is generally no way of every being in a situation where you know that
torture _would_ prevent the harm that is hypothesized to justify it. (And,
I've yet to see anything indicating that, even in the case where you somehow
_know_ that there is an imminent harm and _know_ that a particular person has
information that would allow you to prevent it, that there is any basis on
which one could ever reasonably conclude that torture would be the most
effective method of extracting accurate information.)

Even leaving aside the moral argument that torture is never acceptable
_whatever_ the benefits, none of the torture that has ever been done, no
concrete policy allowing torture that has ever been adopted or proposed, and
no approach to torture that is even _conceivable_ given the information that
appears to be available would ever be able to limit torture to situations
where the kind of "if torture would prevent < _specified class of harms_ >"
scenarios that are frequently cited to justify it.

~~~
davidf18
>> So, if torture would have prevented 9/11 should we have done the torture or
should we have let 9/11 happen?

> The problem with these kind of "if torture would prevent..." scenarios is
> that there is generally no way of every being in a situation where you know
> that torture would prevent the harm that is hypothesized to justify it.

Just as in my example of a surgical intervention after a traffic accident,
this is no guarantee of 100% success. The question to ask is not will every
time be successful, but _statistically_ will it be successful.

Just because you aren't 100% certain that torture would prevent a 9/11, or any
other terrorist attack doesn't mean one shouldn't try the intervention.

Also, the fewer successful attacks, the less likely terrorists will keep
attempting them, so it has a form of community effect _when you prevent any
victim from terror_.

Empathy is key. Talk with victims of terror who have survived, but are
injured. Speak with loved ones of terror victims. Get to know them and their
feelings.

The problem with those who criticize interventions that can save lives from
terrorists, is there lack of empathy for the victims that survive and the
loved ones of those who don't.

The child without the parent. The parent of the child. For example, an
American 13-year-old girl was recently killed by a terrorist in Israel. If
torture could have saved her, then it should have been used.

Palestinian Man Stabs and Kills 13-year-old Israeli Girl Asleep in Her West
Bank Home [http://www.haaretz.com/israel-
news/1.728013](http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.728013)

~~~
davidf18
That's right. It is easier to down vote my posts suggesting empathy for terror
victims than to think about a conversation with them. Try to imagine talking
to the parents of this 13 year old American girl.

While one can't show 100% causation, statistically you can prevent these
attacks and if you can, you should.

~~~
casiotone
Statistically, how many attacks have been prevented by torture?

~~~
davidf18
Well, that's a good question, but I might rephrase it: How many _lives_ and
injuries have been saved.

Also, there is the situation of "the ticking bomb" where an appropriate
intervention to get information could save lives.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Also, there is the situation of "the ticking bomb" where an appropriate
> intervention to get information could save lives.

The idea that you know for a fact that a ticking bomb exists and know for a
fact that a particular target has information about it which could save lives,
but don't know enough to act without information from that subject and don't
have a more reliable way of extracting information from the target than
torture is implausible on a whole number of levels.

