
India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps - samdung
https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/29/india-bans-tiktok-dozens-of-other-chinese-apps/
======
saltedonion
India is absolutely right in banning TikTok as it is a significant national
securities threat.

As long as the platforms recommendation and ranking algos are a black box,
there is no guarantee that China isn’t conducting misinformation campaigns via
the platform.

At the very least, the government should audit the algos and make sure China
can’t arbitrarily alter ranking results.

~~~
ianleeclark
Are YouTube algorithms open? I don't really see a difference here. Nation
state vs. private corporation is different on paper, but I don't see why.
They're both going to react to material stimuli to increase their standings.

~~~
saltedonion
You have a good point. But TikTok is much more risky, and as as such requires
much more scrutiny given existing body of knowledge between how chinese social
media / chat companies such as WeChat enforce government censorship and aid in
propagating misinformation.

This might be a shock to most people in the western world, but if you go on
almost ANY news website in china, the headline news is dedicated to government
propaganda.

The reality is that Chinese firms and government operates together intimately.
Nearly all sizable firms have a party secretary that is involved in board
level decisions, and steps in when things get political. You can ponder who
has the final say.

~~~
ianleeclark
> The reality is that Chinese firms and government operates together
> intimately

No, I get this, but here's the thing: YouTube and, more specifically, it's
advertisers do everything that you're accusing China of. There are material
consequences if YouTube doesn't keep in line. What this means is that a status
quo that pleases advertisers will be maintained.

It's every bit propaganda as dropping leaflets, but you can't point out a
boogeyman pulling the strings.

~~~
pyuser583
The concern is the coordination between Chinese foreign affairs/security
services and the commercial sector.

For US-based firms, that’s simply not the case.

Yes, YouTube needs to make sure Nike is happy. But Nike didn’t just kill two
dozen Indian soldiers.

Certainly there’s privacy related concerns with US companies - as with Chinese
companies. But nobody had accused the DoD of manipulating YouTube search
rankings.

If the DoD wants to conduct a YouTube propaganda campaign, they can buy
advertising like everybody else.

~~~
RobertoG
I don't know, I still remember how, in a poll before the invasion of Iraq, a
majority of Americans though that Saddam Hussein was connected to the 11S
attacks.

~~~
gruez
What are you trying to say here? That the DoD somehow was able to pressure the
US media into supporting the Iraq war? Funny how they were able to do that,
but wasn't able to get the "MSM" to get off Trump's back during his term.

~~~
RobertoG
Actually, from my readings I have the perception that the DoD was against the
invasion of Iraq. But some elites decided that Iraq was going to be invaded
and invaded it was.

Now somebody has decided that China is very bad, and here we are discussing
how bad they are. Despise that in 1989 they massacred their population
literally in the center of their capital, a few years later and until recently
the investment in China grow exponentially. But, they are starting to be too
powerful, so, they are not funny anymore. Now, we have to block their mobile
apps.

What happened to Saudi Arabia by the way? Why are not the independent media
talking about the relationship with them in the same way they talk about Iran?

~~~
Udik
And why a country that puts snipers to shoot on protesters and is planning the
annexation of territory belonging to others (after several other illegal
annexations) is the US's best friend?

~~~
alasdair_
I assume you are talking about Israel? There are quite a few countries that
fit this description however.

------
mathnmusic
I think this sort of response was inevitable and will be seen in more and more
nations. China bans most of the popular websites and apps (including
Wikipedia). The most recent trigger was the border standoff between India and
China where Indian citizens could see and read both governments' responses,
but Chinese citizens were only told Chinese govt's talking points.

This seems like yet another instance of the paradox of tolerance (reciprocity
is a must have for a tolerant/liberal/globalized society):
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)

~~~
bad_user
The paradox of tolerance is bullshit though, as it's not based on empirical
evidence.

It's just armchair philosophy used as justification for intolerance by
intellectuals, the mental gymnastic people need to get over their cognitive
dissonance.

AFAIK Plato came up with it to justify autocracy. That says it all actually.

~~~
jjoonathan
> The paradox of tolerance is bullshit though

So _do_ you tolerate intolerance?

~~~
bad_user
Sorry, not falling in that trap ;-)

~~~
zem
et voila - we have a paradox

~~~
bad_user
No, just a logical fallacy.

------
krn
A reddit user, who claims to have reverse-engineered the TikTok app[1],
concluded:

> TikTok is a data collection service that is thinly-veiled as a social
> network. If there is an API to get information on you, your contacts, or
> your device... well, they're using it.

> For what it's worth I've reversed the Instagram, Facebook, Reddit, and
> Twitter apps. They don't collect anywhere near the same amount of data that
> TikTok does, and they sure as hell aren't outright trying to hide exactly
> whats being sent like TikTok is.

It doesn't seem surprising now, given that Zoom, which is also being developed
in China, acts like a malware application, too[2].

I'm glad, that India is more aware of the possible consequences of using any
software made in China than, for instance, the government of the UK is[3].

[1]
[https://old.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news...](https://old.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news_but_tbh_if_you_have_tiktiok_just_get/)

[2]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22748204](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22748204)

[3]
[https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52126534](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52126534)

~~~
kanox
> > If there is an API to get information on you, your contacts, or your
> device... well, they're using it. For what it's worth I've reversed the
> Instagram, Facebook, Reddit, and Twitter apps. They don't collect anywhere
> near the same amount of data that TikTok does, and they sure as hell aren't
> outright trying to hide exactly whats being sent like TikTok is.

I find this unconvincing and reddit comments are not trustworthy at all.

Wouldn't data collection be limited by the mobile OS anyway? I actually have
TikTok on my phone and it requested no special permissions, compared to most
other apps which don't even let you view content without validating a phone
number.

~~~
krn
> I find this unconvincing and reddit comments are not trustworthy at all.

You should probably read the original comment on reddit, not just my summary
of it. I found it to be extremely detailed and technically convincing, even
though it's still hard to determine the level of its trustworthiness.

~~~
moreorless
The fact that his computer conveniently crashed and cannot backup his claims
is pretty convincing?

~~~
OGWhales
Well since that edit of his was from 1 day ago, hopefully he does show the
little proof he has remaining soon.

I am wary of his claims too.

~~~
krn
Yes, that part about not being able to back up his claims wasn't there, when I
first read that comment yesterday. And I also don't like that he mixes the
technical critique with the moral critique of TikTok, which makes him look
biased.

Still, it's a well known fact that authoritarian regimes tend to use all the
tools available to them for spying in foreign countries. That's why Russia's
Yandex, VKontakte, and Mail.ru are banned in Ukraine since 2017.

------
baybal2
Almost all (except 1) are Chinese made.

I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with this
[https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/china-has-
intruded-423-metre...](https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/china-has-
intruded-423-metres-into-indian-territory-in-the-galwan-valley-2253916)

~~~
chrisco255
Yeah: [https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-india-china/indians-
hold-f...](https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-india-china/indians-hold-
funerals-for-soldiers-killed-at-china-border-burn-portraits-of-xi-
idUKKBN23P0SS)

China is basically using these apps as spyware.

~~~
dheera
I run WeChat on a separate phone with LineageOS and monitor its actions via
the XPosed framework. It regularly scans my Wi-Fi network, checks the list of
installed apps, randomly accesses sensors, and does plenty of other dubious
things.

There was also a period of time where if you didn't give it Location
permissions, it wouldn't let you login to WeChat. With LineageOS I was able to
"give" it the permission but hand it fake sensor data instead of actual
hardware data from the OS side.

I'd never think to run WeChat on a closed-source OS like iOS that doesn't give
access to these kinds of introspection.

That said I don't necessarily think Facebook's or Google's set of apps are
necessarily better in terms of spying, but at least it's possible to message
people using a pure web interface without downloading anything, which WeChat
doesn't let you do.

~~~
kalesh
Do you know Android tracks your location even after turning on Airplane mode?

~~~
shripadk
GPS tracker works via satellite and is a receiver. It is not a transmitter.
Airplane mode turns off cellular services. So realtime tracking is not
possible unless Airplane mode is turned off. Android can record tracker
information but it has no way of transmitting it if the phone is in Airplane
mode.

~~~
kalesh
Yes & it immediately transmits once it comes back to cellular service.

~~~
lern_too_spel
You're confusing Android with iOS. Android builds with Google services let you
disable A-GPS (and in fact ask you if you want it on initial setup). iOS does
not.

------
kumarvvr
This is a right move, in my view.

Chinese infiltration takes a myriad of forms and data collection is one of the
biggest.

And those apps form a basis for click-of-the-button hacking.

And ordinary users will find it very very difficult to determine if an app is
Chinese made or not.

And the Chinese govt. will have it's fingers in everyone of them, one way or
the other.

What I do worry now is that since China has been exposed, it will resort to
even elaborate deceptive methods to hide itself and it's infiltration.

China is not to be trusted.

~~~
hatenberg
You'll see the same attitude to the US from the rest of the world too

~~~
kumarvvr
Yes. Especially in South America.

However, US is not about expansionism.

Its about trade and control. It wants markets, trade and resources.

China is about expansionism and lacks moral or ethical compass.

~~~
puranjay
> However, US is not about expansionism

I love how the world paints China as an aggressive power while conveniently
forgetting the completely unjustified and unwarranted invasion of Iraq by
America.

From a neutral POV, China has only 'invaded' some islands. America has toppled
governments and literally occupied sovereign nations - all under the guise of
"national security".

And it all happened in the distant past of just 17 years ago

~~~
swatkat
>> From a neutral POV, China has only 'invaded' some islands.

You should read about China's antics in African countries.

[https://qz.com/on/china-in-africa/](https://qz.com/on/china-in-africa/)

~~~
puranjay
Remind me when they drop bombs on an African country's capital and hang its
leader, all on a false charge of possessing WMDs.

I see absolutely no way that any American can ethically justify the invasion
of Iraq.

~~~
jryle70
> Remind me when they drop bombs on an African country's capital and hang its
> leader, all on a false charge of possessing WMDs.

They didn't. On the other hand they were the master of Khmer Rouge, who
carried out a genocide killing millions of Cambodians in 1970s - [0]

> In April 1975, Khmer Rouge seized power in Cambodia, and in January, 1976,
> Democratic Kampuchea was established. During the Cambodian genocide, the CPC
> was the main international patron of the Khmer Rouge, supplying "more than
> 15,000 military advisers" and most of its external aid. It is estimated that
> at least 90% of the foreign aid to Khmer Rouge came from China, with 1975
> alone seeing US$1 billion in interest-free economics and military aid and
> US$20 million gift, which was "the biggest aid ever given to any one country
> by China". In June 1975, Pol Pot and other officials of Khmer Rouge met with
> Mao Zedong in Beijing, receiving Mao's approval and advice; in addition, Mao
> also taught Pot his "Theory of Continuing Revolution under the Dictatorship
> of the Proletariat（无产阶级专政下继续革命理论）". High-ranking CPC officials such as Zhang
> Chunqiao later visited Cambodia to offer help

You should also check out the short war with Vietnam in 1979, where atrocious
crimes were committed against civilians.

You should finally read about Chinese's systematic effort to suppress Tibetans
- [1], or more recently, Uyghurs

[0] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge)
[1] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet)

~~~
puranjay
If we're going to talk about countries using their proxies to control and
suppress native populations, then we can have an entire discussion about
America's role in South America.

I'm not condoning China's past at all - I condemn what they did, and what they
are doing right now. But any criticism of China can't come from a position of
moral superiority, as it often does from western critics.

------
amrrs
Covid cases are on rise in India. Government didn't handle lockdown well to
accommodate guest (migrant) workers and they were stranded. On top of all
these, lives of Indian soldiers died recently in a clash with Chinese soldiers
and China is continuously testing limits at Galwan Valley. You need a
disruptive breaking news to crush all these and prove Government is in
control. This is simply that. This is nothing but fueling the anti-China
sentiment growing in the country. This will temporarily relieve government
from answering the other growing concerns.

It's also quite ironic that so many companies with strong Chinese funding are
still operating. Chinese smartphone makers are also doing great in India
despite economic slowdown. OnePlus recently did a flash sale and sold out.

It'll be interesting to see what's going to happen in Long term. But this one,
it's just a spicy headlines.

~~~
mratsim
Seems like they learned from Trump and the change in visa/immigration to
distract the public.

~~~
baybal2
People downvoted you unjustly. Your position is substantiated.

The amount of actual impact on trade in between China, and USA is completely
microscopic in relation to the amount of noise, and commotion.

One can not believe that sides genuinely oppose each other, rather than doing
a theatrical performance with unspoken mutual understanding.

------
riverlong
I'm seeing lots of comments about national security-style concerns, and
framing this in terms of the recent India-China skirmishes. That all makes
sense.

Where I think a lot of folks are missing the point is that this is also a
tremendous boost to local Indian entrepreneurship. One of the really clever
aspects of China's Great Firewall is that it keeps out international
competition, which would crush local startups. By banning more advanced,
foreign competitors, India gives its local entrepreneurs a chance to grow
hugely successful domestic apps, which can then compete internationally.

~~~
systemvoltage
While I agree about symmetric response to China, here is the problem:

> By banning more advanced, foreign competitors, India gives its local
> entrepreneurs a chance to grow hugely successful domestic apps, which can
> then compete internationally.

If India bans international apps from competing within India, wouldn't Indian
apps from these new found enterpreneurs expect the same response from other
countries? There is a paradox here.

Why should any country allow Indian apps if they cannot compete in India? You
realize this is the exact same situation as what India is doing with China.
Now replace China with India.

What hypocrisy!

~~~
affb-4d68-a85
>wouldn't Indian apps from these new found enterpreneurs expect the same
response from other countries?

I am from India, and I don't think this would matter a lot if the company
doesn't suffer from grand delusions of trying to go global etc. There are a
lot of very idiosyncratic things about the culture here (just as in other
countries) where it makes a lot of sense to develop India specific apps.

Also, the nature of innovation itself would change if an app is developed to
cater primarily to people in India. A perfect example of this is the recently
introduced UPI payments scheme, which if I understand correctly is already far
ahead in terms of convenience when compared to payments services in developed
countries. And I am very thankful neither Facebook nor TikTok controls it in
any way, shape or form!

Otherwise, I agree with your sentiment, as it applies generally to trade
policies between true allies. The only problem I have is that China is an
exception when it comes to these bilateral trade policies, because they have a
long history of bullying [1] smaller neighbors, and they can rarely be trusted
when it comes to any kind of neighborliness. People who are pro-China should
come and live a few years in these regions, and I expect they won't remain
pro-China for very long.

And then throw in the rampant IP theft, and it seems to me that pro-China
advocates are acting like useful idiots.

I will add a very ironic thing I read recently by one of those useful idiots,
who said "Thank God this didn’t start in somewhere like India, because there’s
absolutely no way that the quality of Indian governance could move to react in
the way that the Chinese have done" [2]. The irony of course is that China is
trying to convince the world that the virus didn't even _originate_ in China.
In other words, Mr. Jim O'Neill would likely be in Chinese prison if he had
made that statement from inside of China. I bet the heavy-handedness wouldn't
taste so good if you become one of the victims. Nassim Taleb would have mocked
this as the statement of a guy who "has no skin in the game".

[1] [https://news.usni.org/2020/01/27/panel-china-now-well-
positi...](https://news.usni.org/2020/01/27/panel-china-now-well-positioned-
to-bully-neighbors-in-south-china-sea)

[2] [https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/11/thank-god-this-didnt-
start-i...](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/11/thank-god-this-didnt-start-in-
india-jim-oneill-praises-chinas-coronavirus-response.html)

~~~
stevens32
I was glad that finally someone provided some sort of reference, but the
article's title turned out to be "China Now Well Positioned to Bully Neighbors
in South China Sea". I don't doubt what you're saying, but it hardly supports
the bully accusation. It was an interesting read, I had no idea that the host
countries of US bases had to help pay for them.

Speaking of state victims, here's a fun fact - India rounded up all of its
ethnic Chinese residents (including Indian citizens) and put them into an
internment camp for 5 years with no apology or compensation.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Chinese-
Indians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Chinese-Indians)

~~~
affb-4d68-a85
Here is Wikipedia's version of the story:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Reed_Bank_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Reed_Bank_incident)

"On 13 June 2019, a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman pronounced the incident
and "ordinary maritime accident".[10] The following day, the Chinese Embassy
in Manila released a statement via Facebook claiming that a Chinese fishing
boat, Yuemaobinyu 42212, "was berthed near Reed Bank when it was suddenly
besieged by 7 or 8 Filipino fishing boats". In attempting to evade the
Filipino boats, the Chinese vessel's lightning grid cable dragged into the
Filipino boat's pilothouse, causing the boat to tilt and founder.[11] This
Facebook post however, was later deleted.[12]

China released a revised statement on 18 June 2019, this time omitting the
narrative that Yuemaobinyu 42212 had been besieged by 7 or 8 Filipino fishing
boats. The statement referred to the incident as an "accidental collision"
between fishing boats and offered sympathies to the Filipino fishermen.[13]

In August 2019 Chen Shiqin, the president of the Guangdong Fishery Mutual
Insurance Association sent a letter to the Philippines apologizing for one of
its member's ships sinking F/B Gem-Ver and subsequently abandoning its
crew.[14] It was initially reported that the apology was accepted, but this
was later refuted by the Philippine Department of Foreign Affairs.[15]"

The initial reaction to the incident certainly looks like bullying. What would
you call it?

>>Speaking of state victims, here's a fun fact - India rounded up all of its
ethnic Chinese residents (including Indian citizens) and put them into an
internment camp for 5 years with no apology or compensation.

There was an actual war going on at that time. There is a perception in India
that China backstabbed the Indian prime minister of that day. I am fairly
certain not one person in China would agree.

Isn't that exactly what USA did to its Japanese citizens during World War II?
Is that supposed to prove anything one way or another? Yes, during war lots of
ugly things happen. But that's why nobody likes to go to war, isn't it? The
first casualty of war is the truth.

~~~
stevens32
Thanks for providing more references. Maybe I'm dense, but where exactly is
the bullying by the Chinese side? It seems to have gone from a claim that 7-8
Filipino fishermen besieged them, to them saying it was an accident and
apologizing.

> Isn't that exactly what USA did to its Japanese citizens during World War II

It was, but eventually they got the dignity of an apology and a check to get
their lives in the USA back on track.

The war in India also only lasted barely 2 months, to be held for 5 years
seems excessive.

> But that's why nobody likes to go to war, isn't it? The first casualty of
> war is the truth.

Sometimes the loss of truth is placed before the lead up to war. I'm seeing a
lost respect for truth (I'm not directing this at you) and I find it very
concerning.

------
solutron
I don't wanna sound like "that guy" but we have to take a step back and ask
ourselves how we got here. The entire software industry has it's roots in
espionage and war, even though the past 30 years have seen a massive expansion
of consumer technology that, on the surface, completely removes us from that
history. Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say. It's a wonder that
we have consumer tech for entertainment and enhancing our lives and that we've
built vast markets on it. But, we can't forget the fact that our experience on
that end of the technology spectrum doesn't negate where and when we fit into
a broader timeline spanning generations. If the doers, the technologists and
creators forget this, countries like China are going to run roughshod over the
United States, and use what they've learned from and about us against us and
against democratic ideals abroad. I've been telling people for the past year
or more to stop using TikTok and I get mostly snickers or "that's
interesting". American hubris leads us to think we'll always be "on top" and
that discoveries like this are fundamentally inconsequential. There's larger
plays in flux at the geopolitical scale and it'd be a mistake for Americans to
ignore it and pretend it's "no big deal." India has it's own reasons to
conduct the ban, right or wrong, but American's should really consider
following suit, especially as we head into election season and as social
unrest and loose ends continue to shape America's future.

------
pvelagal
Everyone questioning India, should first Question China ! Why does this
country ban these services ?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China)

~~~
hnarn
> Everyone questioning India, should first Question China

Or, you could question both. Whataboutism isn't a valid argument, so
censorship of the Internet can still be wrong at the same time as China is a
malevolent force both on the Internet in general terms and for specific pieces
of software or services in more concrete terms.

~~~
pvelagal
Well, You have grown comfortable with double standards , somehow equating
China with rest of world. Please spend sometime questioning that delusion.
China is NO WAY QUALIFIED to question any country ! Western decency has been
exploited by China for sometime.. But, For Indian politics it is payback time,
killing innocents means crossing a red line...it will trigger response ! btw,
US senators did introduce a bill way back in march to ban tiktok
[https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senators-hawley-scott-
introduc...](https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senators-hawley-scott-introduce-
legislation-ban-tiktok-government-devices)

------
raghava
This news must be seen along with what happened early this year.

[https://www.medianama.com/2020/01/223-the-great-indian-
firew...](https://www.medianama.com/2020/01/223-the-great-indian-firewall/)

A Great Indian Firewall is shaping up. Now that the sentiment is all "anti-
China!", people would celebrate instead of protesting the great firewall.

"Masterstroke!"* - Indian public.

*Basically, anything the current leader does, his PR team and his party spokespersons end up terming "unprecedented" / "masterstroke" / "genius move". Everything seems headed towards hardcore Soviet scheme of things.

------
OkGoDoIt
So if WeChat is basically the only messaging app allowed in China, and WeChat
is not allowed to be used in India, is there any widely available platform
that Indian citizens can use to chat with Chinese citizens? Making it
impossible or at least very difficult to communicate with people in another
country seems like it’s only going to make any divide even worse in the long
term. Think of the fallout of Facebook filter bubbles but to an extreme, by
making it very difficult to even communicate with someone in a different
culture with different viewpoints.

~~~
ketzu
> So if WeChat is basically the only messaging app allowed in China

How did you get that impression? There are a ton of chinese messanging apps,
e.g., QQ, which is also on the list of banned apps.

~~~
technobum
Great job refuting your own point. QQ is owned by the same parent company as
WeChat (Tencent). Tencent is also implementing the Chinese Social Credit Score
system, and so in my humble opinion, is the tech arm of the chinese
government.

~~~
ketzu
It really comes down to what "basically the only one" means. But I wouldn't
aggree that "google hangouts is basically the only messaging app" would even
extend to all the other messaging apps google ever produced. (Please note that
this is an example of formulation and what I consider that encompasses, not
that hangouts is the only messaging app in any context.)

But besides that: There exist further chinese messengers and non chinese
messengers that are not blocked in china.

The rest is, in my opinion, irrelevant to the topic of wechat being the only
chinese messaging app.

------
sanmon3186
This ban is primarily to satiate anti-China sentiment.

The global economy is too interwined with China. No country can afford to put
a blanket ban on things that matter, without a viable plan-B.

~~~
cm2187
Overnight, I agree. But I think the decoupling will happen. The outsourcing to
China took about 10 years (mid 90s to mid 2000s). It will likely not take a
lot longer to decouple. 10y is very rapid.

~~~
chrisco255
We in the U.S. should have partnered more closely with India in the first
place. India is democratic and hold values closer to our own. The CCP not so
much.

~~~
blackoil
International Partnerships are not based on values or Democracy/*cracy. China
moved to market based economy earlier then India and being an autocratic
country the move was swift and efficient. US wanted to befriend China against
Russia in 70s/80s. India started late and kept struggling internally because
of the democratic values.

If values were such important, Saudis wouldn't have been your best buddies.

~~~
ciarannolan
>[not all] International Partnerships are not based on values or
Democracy/*cracy

FTFY.

Think about the "special relationship" among the UK/US that is (definitely
was) primarily based on values.

The Saudis are a pragmatic ally, not a values-based one. Both exist.

~~~
Udik
> Think about the "special relationship" among the UK/US that is (definitely
> was) primarily based on values.

Which values? Atheism? The welfare state? Well defined social classes? The
royal family?

~~~
ciarannolan
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Relationship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Relationship)

It's always disappointing commenting on HN only to get reddit/twitter "zinger"
replies.

~~~
Udik
You entirely missed my point: I'm not questioning the existence of a "special
relationship", I'm asking if it's based on "values". What values does the US
share with the UK more than with most other western countries?

~~~
ciarannolan
I don't think there was really a point to be missed.

If you have a point, go ahead and make it.

~~~
Udik
Strange, because the question I asked and you didn't answer was pretty clear:
"What values does the US share with the UK more than with most other western
countries?".

My point (implicit, but obvious) is that "values" is a weasel word used to
justify power alliances under the pretension of some shared positive ethical
trait.

For the specific case, I feel that the UK and the US have very different
values, as it's easy to see comparing the society and recent history of the
two countries.

~~~
ciarannolan
Thanks. I didn't answer because it common for people making a lowest common
denominator comment to just pepper you with questions that never land on a
final point.

I think your point is interesting. What do you mean by "power alliances" in
this context? Do you mean that they're mostly (or entirely) allied for their
combined war making power?

For my part, I think the relationship is based on a general understanding that
their people are alike in custom, beliefs, traditions, geopolitical place,
etc. After all, America is the troubled child of the UK that grew up to
dominate the world.

~~~
Udik
Sorry, I know "power alliances" wasn't too clear, but it was just a way to
stress that these are in effect temporary, shifting alliances between powerful
organisations (such as nation states are).

> For my part, I think the relationship is based on a general understanding
> that their people are alike in custom, beliefs, traditions, geopolitical
> place, etc

Yes, and this is what I was sceptical about. Just to give a few examples, the
UK society is extremely secularised, with more than 50% of the population
declaring itself non religious; nobody thinks it's a right to carry firearms;
police itself is mostly unarmed; politically, there's a strong labour party
that is way to the left than the US political mainstream, a welfare state and
universal social security and health care. The demographic composition is much
more homogeneous than that of the US, with a large indigenous population and
relatively recent immigration. There is a lot of value put on tradition,
social classes and social order. There is a hereditary aristocracy that holds
reserved seats in a branch of the parliament. Etc.

> After all, America is the troubled child of the UK

Yes, and they share a language. But the US is an entirely different place: a
whole continent with deserts, mountain ranges, tropical beaches and freezing
wilderness. A huge amount of space that for centuries has attracted immigrants
from all over Europe and the world; the US culture is a mix of many
conflicting cultures released in a colonial setting where conquering and
settling was for centuries the way forward.

Imo, the relationship of the US with the UK is mostly sentimental, while that
of the UK with the US is one of subalternity.

------
kalesh
I have a conspiracy theory here. Alibaba & AliExpress are missing in that
banned list. This seems more like a direct hit on ByteDance rather than China.

Facebook recently invested in Reliance Jio. There have been other investments
from Silver Lake, Vista Equity Partners etc.

TikTok is a big threat to FB, Instagram & YouTube. ByteDance apps TikTok, Vigo
Video, Helo have around 300 million users in India. Facebook user base is 280
million. ByteDance had more apps planned for this year.

Banning BD is a big win for Facebook & Reliance. Government also get's to
score a few points in this coronavirus mess.

~~~
mav3rick
Its more to do with the border skirmish.

~~~
kalesh
I don't understand what's the objective here. Banning these apps will have 0
or little financial impact on China. This seems more like a publicity stunt.
Banning Alibaba would have been a bold move.

~~~
quantummkv
> I don't understand what's the objective here. Banning these apps will have 0
> or little financial impact on China

The intent is not financial. The intent is to block the direct access that
China has to manipulate and shape opinions inside India. It's to prevent China
from opening another front in it's ongoing war with it's neighbors.

------
x87678r
India smartphone marketshare:

Xiaomi 30%

Vivo 17%

Samsung 16%

Realme 14%

Oppo 12%

Others 11%

[https://www.counterpointresearch.com/india-smartphone-
share/](https://www.counterpointresearch.com/india-smartphone-share/)

~~~
bg24
Curious why can't India learn the lesson that China uses to change these
statistics in 3 months? Of course, if it is related to long-term national
security.

\- Ban the companies for 3 months. Then allow selectively. \- Reduce the tax
from South Korea and Japan.

~~~
minusSeven
Because of trade deficit that is already in China's favour. I assume banning
these companies means further actions on China's part that will impact India
even harder.

~~~
yinyang_in
Would deficit reduce if we ban mobile providers, since deficit is more on side
of India.

Doesn't china comparatively has lesser moves than india as it enjoys trade
benefit far more than India.

~~~
minusSeven
No here we don't know what steps they would take, they could block trade of
things we need. Its not just about the trade deficit itself.

------
koopuluri
I'm curious how this will affect the local startup scene. There's definitely a
great demand for these products that now needs to be fulfilled by local / non-
Chinese international players.

If this ban lasts:

My concern is that Facebook will introduce India-specific products to fill
this void, while my hope is that local players significantly up their product
quality and reach to build a strong domestic tech scene - the way China did a
decade and a half ago w/ Tencent, Baidu, ByteDance, etc. This domestic talent
expansion will help build a stronger domestic tech ecosystem.

Why the concern w/ Facebook? They already have a deathly grip on Indian
consumers w/ WhatsApp, Facebook, Instagram. Tik Tok was the only major social
platform used by Indians that wasn't owned by Facebook, and now they have a
chance to potentially grab that as well. I'm not comfortable with one company
owning that much attention, I don't trust their privacy policies with their
data privacy track record and they don't iterate quickly enough on localized
product-features meaning Indian users lag months / years behind western
regions (e.g. Instagram in-app shopping experience).

~~~
searchableguy
What do you think the local market needs right now?

Can you give some example?

------
sloshnmosh
To be clear, India has banned most of the apps listed for the members of their
army years ago.

Also, many of the apps listed have been removed from the Google Play store
several times for violating Googles developer policies and user privacy.

Anyone familiar with Android knows to avoid apps made by DU and CM.

Another little known factoid is that the “Beauty camera” line (Mitu?) has an
admistrative level person that used to work at Cambridge Analytica.

~~~
balola
Surprised a free tool app would want that guy.

------
sameerds
What surprises me is that the discussion here is taking the original article
at face value. Sure, the Indian govt is citing national security as the reason
for the ban. But take a slightly cynical view, and focus your attention on
this sentence:

"Jayanth Kolla, an analyst at research firm Convergence Catalyst, told
TechCrunch the move was surprising and will have huge impact on Chinese firms,
many of which count India as their biggest market."

That's the real reason. This is just posturing between two neighbouring
countries who are currently involved in a border dispute. There is already a
lot of military posturing, a lot of diplomatic posturing and now a lot of
market posturing, which includes the Internet.

~~~
rsanek
It's probable that the border issue made them more willing to take actions
that they might normally avoid in fears of unnecessarily angering China. I
think of it less as pure posturing and more as, if we're already in a border
dispute we might as well take the opportunity to do some things we planned to
but put off.

~~~
4BxHkLgUVBG
Yup, this border issue may well be a good thing for India. New Delhi can now
officially treat China as an adversary nation and take steps towards securing
its national interest without any moral dilemma and without any care as to how
CCP will perceive such steps. CCP is now considered hostile so there’s nothing
to lose for India.

------
tech_dreamer
It has everything to do with current border skirmish. Also, 44% percent of
tiktok users are from India.

~~~
qeternity
Source on the demographics? That’s really interesting.

------
privacywiki
I hope many countries to follow this example, not by banning and censorship
but actually banning the botnets that are no good and just for mining data.

------
sbmthakur
For context, India and China are currently locked in a border conflict and
both sides are building up[1]. There is also the issue of PRC's National
Intelligence Law, which mandates every Chinese company's assistance and
cooperation with the state intelligence[2].

1\. [https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/satellite-
images-s...](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/satellite-images-show-
buildup-on-india-china-border/articleshow/76666203.cms)

2\. [https://www.lawfareblog.com/beijings-new-national-
intelligen...](https://www.lawfareblog.com/beijings-new-national-intelligence-
law-defense-offense)

------
dang
We've changed the URL from
[https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetailm.aspx?PRID=1635206](https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetailm.aspx?PRID=1635206)
to an article that adds a bit of background. If there's a better article, we
can change it again.

The site guidelines call for original sources, of course
([https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)),
but press releases are a bit of a grey area because they tend to leave out
important context, if not outright mislead.

------
president
Glad to see India understanding the threat to national security posed by these
apps. I would like to see the US do the same.

~~~
markovbot
I would find it very problematic if the US government attempted to interfere
with it's citizens downloading whatever software they want. I absolutely do
not trust the US government to be the arbitrator of what app's are "safe".

~~~
ppeetteerr
This is a common sentiment: distrust in the US government. Given that 30% of
income goes to the feds, might be time to change the government to be more
trust worthy. Good thing elections are coming up.

~~~
markovbot
This is a pretty common response: just vote for the other guy. Too bad no one
trustworthy is running for the executive office.

~~~
arcticbull
So it's time to change the system. Ranked choice voting and a third party
could make a world of difference. Continuing to give all your money to an
entity you don't trust isn't a working plan. It leads to, for instance, the
COVID response.

Defeatism around something so critically important to the success of a country
isn't a plan.

~~~
markovbot
I was not trying to suggest defeatism, just sick of hearing voting in the
current system as a reasonable response to anything. Not saying don't vote,
just saying stop suggesting it's the way to fix specific problems. Voting
probably won't fix most problems.

Absolutely, one of the big systemic changes we need to effect is a switch to
ranked choice voting. There are several other significant changes to the US's
voting system that would also be needed. Things like a complete elimination of
voting machines, and honestly a full switch to vote-by-mail would probably
help.

Of course, the voting system in this country isn't even the biggest problem,
some how. Things need to change before next election, not in a few election
cycles.

------
didip
Well.. besides the blatant privacy concerns, it seems fair to ban Chinese apps
since they themselves also ban foreign apps.

~~~
scarlac
I strongly disagree. We should prefer to not divide the world if we can. The
sentiment "If they can be bad, so can I" is not the recipe for a world I want
to build. I believe the world would regress if we kept acting like that.

~~~
Knuthtruth
It's easy to be idealistic while sitting at home comfortably . These 2
countries are currently at the brink of war, when one country attacks you, you
need to defend yourself anyway you can. I don't see anything wrong in Indias
actions. China has long asked for such rebuttal from its neighbors.

------
entha_saava
I am an Indian and here is my perspective.

A significant portion of Indian smartphone users are not technically literate.
Lot of shady adware developed in China is ubiquitous in India, due to inertia
and network effects, as well as lack of awareness about security / permissions
given to apps etc..

For example, that file sharing application called ShareIt. That's a piece of
shit. But people used it and if you wanted to share some movie / song /
something like that with other people, you would've needed that crap. I have
refused to use such adware since an year and it worked for me because content
I consume was different, there was cheap Jio internet and I didn't need to
share much files with others. The technically educated of us used Google Files
or Xender which were better than ShareIt. And most people don't own PC/Laptop
thus Pendrives are out of question.

Similarly people used browsers like UC browser without concerns, because they
didn't know better.

Now there is friction between China and India, the ubiquity of Chinese apps is
a threat, and Govt. has taken right step. But more stuff needs to be banned,
and the danger needs to be clearly communicated instead of a blanket ban,
which leads people to think it is just an act of patriotism.

------
zachguo
Surprisingly HNers are embracing the concept of cyber sovereignty that China
and Russia are pushing.

~~~
sergiotapia
money makes it easy for them.

------
jialutu
For anyone interested, here is the US National Security's view on the current
standoff between China and India, from China's strategic perspective:

[https://warontherocks.com/2020/06/chinas-strategic-
assessmen...](https://warontherocks.com/2020/06/chinas-strategic-assessment-
of-the-ladakh-clash/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB)

Seems these repercussions are already put into consideration.

------
nitrobeast
Slightly off topic. After the Covid-19 masks are not useful / we must wear
masks fiasco, if you are willing to think it through, it is painful how most
media are not independent at all. At best they are beholden to group thinks,
parroting government officials. At worst they are just instruments of
propaganda. I believe it is time for each person to control the information
they receive, just like diet. AdBlockers are a good first step.

------
affb-4d68-a85
I am from India, and I don't understand this. Why are people comparing TikTok
to Facebook and Google? Facebook and Google do horrible user tracking, but
there is a big difference.

There is such a thing as _real_ dissent in the country where Facebook and
Google are headquartered. It actually matters to people who use these
services.

Do you doubt it? A Twitter account like this cannot be run from _inside_ of
China:

[https://twitter.com/Project_Veritas](https://twitter.com/Project_Veritas)

If you disagree, please comment with a Twitter profile (preferably written in
English, but I can also use Google Translate if it is written in Chinese) and
change my mind.

What about all the naysayers about a LOT of America's policies who still have
a public platform? Here is an example:

[https://www.lewrockwell.com/](https://www.lewrockwell.com/)

By the way, just because I am linking to it doesn't mean I agree with
everything on that website, which is sort of the whole point isn't it? I am
still able to read and then think about dissenting voices.

Can someone show me the Chinese equivalent of that website?

------
zxienin
India China have military asymmetry, in favor of later.

In such scenario, it is not difficult to imagine, that India use whatever
strengths it has, to compensate for this asymmetry.

India is a big digital market. Consumerism is being weaponized. One can debate
if this indeed is the driver or not. Yet, a statement has been made.

Boycott of Chinese physical goods is not as straightforward as digital ones.
Low hanging fruit, to make a statement.

------
kumarski
Disclaimer: This is not investment advice, this is lunatic gambling advice
from a systems engineer with a background in polymers who is an American born
Indian.

Tibet quenches the thirst of 3Bn people through ~10 rivers in SE Asia.

Kashmir and Tibet are red hot conflict zones and this is through and through a
contest of freshwater.

This is a powder keg unlike any other and this scenario is collateral
shrapnel.

China has 5% arable land and its water becomes more putrid by the day. 20% of
industrial waste water pollution is from textile dye that's dumped into water,
and China has cornered the textile manufacturing market.

China uses water for dams. They built something like 20k+ dams in 70 years.

China uses water for agriculture, extremely inefficiently.

China weaponized water data on the Brahmaputra river and it caused downstream
deaths in India.

I'm aggressively invested in $DFEN and $BA.

Boeing has 400 vendors in Inda. This will heat up.

MOD and DRDO ain't no joke.

If you were a murderous dictator like Xi Jinping, it would be prudent to kill
the muslim minority to ensure a long and stable CCP indoctrinated control of
Tibet and all the water brouhaha.

~~~
pm90
Yes, obviously, long term intense military conflict between nuclear powers
leads in incredible security.

While both countries engage in Sabre rattling, its inconceivable that there
would be an arms race of the kind that would cause a significant change in the
stock price of defense contractors.

A more likely scenario is the upcoming Biden administration steps in and
bullies China and/or India into backing down. The hollowing out of the US
State department has probably been one of the most underappreciated casualties
of the Trump administration.

~~~
el_dev_hell
> A more likely scenario is the upcoming Biden administration steps in and
> bullies China and/or India into backing down.

Australian here wayyyyyy out of the US political loop. Is Joe Biden looking
likely to win? Has he been promising a hard-line stance on China?

~~~
pm90
He’s up by wide margins in the polls so statistically, yes.

Although, as the 2016 election showed, polls may not always be reliable.

------
TLightful
Everyone is kissing China's netherlands for their hardware, and suddenly
becoming precious over their software.

Hippopotamuses!

~~~
stevens32
Hardware is also getting a fair share of international bans

------
stevewodil
How does this ban actually get enforced? How are the apps blocked on devices
which already have them installed?

~~~
khuey
Sounds like it'll be a combination of pulling them from the app stores in
India and ISPs blocking connections to the relevant server IPs.

~~~
YetAnotherNick
Any sources? I am also curious about this.

------
wsc981
Not completely related I guess, but ...

I recently bought an LG phone for mobile dev (LG V30). I need to enable
developer mode to properly use this device for development. I am able to set
the device in developer mode, but there is no way to select transfer protocol
over USD with connected computer.

I worry this device might be hacked and this device is modified to prevent
people from removing any hacks. I am also not able to do a hardware reset
using the instructions I can find on internet.

On the other hand, this could just be some weird Android bug. But I think it's
all quite suspicious.

By the way, part of the OS (e.g. the first menu shown after doing a soft
reset) are not in English, only in Korean (I think). Also a bit weird imo.

Either way, these weird experiences with this device made me a lot more
worried about security.

------
abrbhat
An aspect that most people seem to be missing is that this gives the Indians
an opportunity to create their own apps and social networks. This has two
benefits, it is a safeguard against information propaganda, and it gives
protection to the Indian software industry to grow.

------
op03
The kids are going to be pissed with Mr. Modi :) I hope he has a plan of where
this goes.

~~~
yyhhsj0521
Kids can't vote.

~~~
vulcan01
And parents will appreciate that their kids are spending less time on social
media (hopefully) :)

------
gopiandcode
While there may be a legitimate discussion to be had about the dangers of
foriegn-state controlled mass social media, it is rather disheartening to see
so many cheer the restriction of user freedom and increasing censorship.

------
systemvoltage
I just noticed that the link to the official Indian gov press release was
modified to TechCrunch.

@dang - why was this changed, do you know? May be the Indian Gov Press release
site hit hard by HN?

------
sradman
> The 2020 China–India skirmishes are part of an ongoing military standoff
> between China and India. ...numerous Indian government officials said that
> border tensions will not impact trade between India and China despite some
> Indian campaigns about boycotting Chinese products. [1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_China–India_skirmishes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_China–India_skirmishes)

------
leozhi2
I run a hard tech product team, our product is moving from prototype to the
alpha stage in the next three months. Lots of components come in from China,
because they cost twice as much in this country. WeChat is how we (or anyone)
talk to Chinese vendors. No Canton Fair, no China travel, communication cut
off at its knees, and issues with customs' clearances - this is going to be a
brutal time for strained budgets and timelines.

------
mappum
This is fascinating - I have been quantitatively tracking TikTok trends and
Indian songs consistently top the charts on TikTok by view counts. This will
displace many Indian TikTok users and either a new platform will spring up, or
Indians will get slightly better at using VPNs (just like internet users in
China).

(For the curious, my TikTok data is shared here:
[https://tiktometer.com](https://tiktometer.com))

------
linsomniac
This weekend "someone" was asserting TikTok was extremely malicious, but a lot
of things in it raised red flags for me. I wrote up details about the supposed
malicious action, and got a little discussion going over on this thread, but
it hasn't gotten traction so far:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23679649](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23679649)

TL;DR: A tweet posts photos of "someone on reddit" saying they had analyzed
the TikTok client and it was sending all sorts of data and able to execute
.zip downloads, etc. Reddit thread has the poster saying "I'd provide proof,
but it's in a soldered on SSD in a broken computer."

------
vgchh
With the recent killing of 20 Indian soldiers, conventionally India would’ve
responded militarily. Though the reality is India can’t afford a military
conflict with the much more powerful China. Thus banning the apps is a good
response. You kill our 20 people and alter boundaries, we cut off your
businesses from our markets at the very least.

------
kabacha
None of these apps are essential or especially unique so they'll be replaced
by some local clone few weeks later. Funnily enough that's exactly how it
works in China itself — they ban stuff and then replace with local clones
which sometimes end up being even better than original except for the spyware
bloat.

------
pvelagal
I am thinking why does China ban Google, Facebook, Twitter and Youtube ? What
are they afraid of ?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China)

------
known
Evidence suggests Modi regime was receiving Chinese donations for many years;

Recently TikTok donated 30 crore rupees to
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PM_CARES_Fund](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PM_CARES_Fund)

Will Modi regime return these funds ?

------
phoe-krk
Clash of Kings? That online game? Why?

~~~
dmix
Clash of Kings is owned by a Chinese company called Elex-Tech aka "Beijing
ELEX Technology Co".
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Kings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Kings)

Not to be confused with the more popular "Clash of Clans" which is owned by a
Finnish company
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Clans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Clans)

~~~
em500
That Finnish company is now owned by a Chinese company.

~~~
dmix
Ha, you're right Supercell is 81.4% owned by Tencent. It's hard to keep up
these days.

------
rammy1234
This is going to empower startups in India. To create things in India. Every
country needs to go product route. Create more than consumption. we will get
variety as well as fosters creativity. One thing for sure empowering startup
culture is a game changer for india IMO

------
korginator
It's funny looking at the responses bashing India's decision here. With the
current geo-political climate, and China pretty much swallowing up and
controlling all of India's neighbours - Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Nepal,
I'd say this decision is long overdue.

In more recent months, China's military has become increasingly aggressive
against India and in the South China Sea, and they've just recently passed a
draconian 'national security' law in Hong Kong which pretty much allows them
unlimited control over the territory.

With this in mind, China is starting to look like a grave threat to the peace
and stability of Asia and beyond (apropos their recently influencing the
elections in Kiribati and having a puppet leader installed).

India welcoming Chinese made software is like the US deploying Iranian or
North Korean origin software. Tell me how that works out.

------
tksb
I've been passively thinking about this recently. Is there any pathway for
individual users to (effectively) do the same for their devices or network, or
both? Is IP blocking via hosts or otherwise still effective enough to be
useful?

~~~
quantummkv
For networks, a Raspberry pi with pihole would be great starting step that
still works

------
Nginx487
Absolutely right decision. There are no private companies in China, all of the
corporate entities directly or indirectly depend on CCP, which uses every
opportunity to damage national security of enemies.

------
bobbydreamer
Tiktok is a happy app. It make you smile, laugh and relax. Ofcourse India will
ban it.

Next will be zoom why there is JioMeet. Can anyone find 5 differences between
JioMeet and Zoom app.

------
seesawtron
I am not sure when and how this ban will take into effect because right now it
is still available for download in playstore. So it seems to be more of a
strategic move in response to the border issues.

------
robofanatic
It would be interesting to see Tiktok's usage chart today

------
knolax
This comment might be too meta/off topic but..

This thread is hilarious. You have people spamming the same link over and over
again and not be greyed out, but if you look into their comment history you'll
find dead comments with such controversial opinions as "spice was lucrative
during the age of sail" and "Vegan Italian food is possible". HNers are a
mercurial lot.

I'm looking forward to see the reactions of HN once similar bans get enacted
closer to home. The free speech and free market absolutists have been silent
so far, let's see how long they can maintain the cognitive dissonance.

------
chvid
Sad to see India degenerating into nationalism and populism.

~~~
stevens32
I feel like this could be said for the rest of the world as well

------
jb775
There's an active border dispute currently going on between India and China.
Probably equivalent to early movement of a pawn in a game of chess.

------
amriksohata
China bans far more stuff, anyone questioning India doesn't realise what China
bans.

TikTok and a lot of some Chinese apps are seriously untrustworthy

------
sadfev
It was brewing for a while. I am surprised that so many apps got b&. I was
sure weChat and TikTok were gonna get axed but not others

~~~
geekrax
> "b&"

wow!

------
scared2
With recent developments, even during covid we can see that trump visit is
paying off. And India is officially trump ally.

------
1024core
If China can ban websites and apps (for whatever reasons), why can't India?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

------
ekianjo
That's pretty fair seeing that China bans a lot of content/apps/sites that is
not produced in China.

------
neximo64
Are any of you afraid it'll happen to your app? today its China tomorrow it
could be another country

~~~
zigh
Any of you afraid that the once unconceivable WWIII is gradually become
possible because of the irresponsible politician trying to mitigate their own
misconduct/misjudgement by instigating hate and xenophobia.

------
ryanmarsh
The public health toll of social media will not be fully understood for
another 30 years it seems.

People with adolescents and teen daughters please chime in here. The rates of
suicide, cutting, and psychological problems are climbing. My wife and I find
a charity that offers counseling and therapy to young girls. What is common
place now was nearly unheard of in my generation (X).

~~~
yellow_postit
Just because it was “unheard” of didn’t mean it wasn’t happening in GenX. I
don’t know if there’s a way to ever fully compare them but there are panics
that accompany every new medium of communication.

------
john4532452
Did the ban go through court process or its imposed by ruling party decision ?

------
wogong
Finally Chinese companies know the feeling of being banned in another country.

------
cmonnow
How long will it take China to rebrand these apps under a different name ?

------
scared2
A one billion market loss

------
rezeroed
What about Chinese phones and their customised Android?

~~~
suyash
Lot of countries are banning Chinese 5G hardware for the same reasons. Trump
also issued ban on mobile device makes like ZTE etc for the same reason.

------
zandroid
InShot is missing.

~~~
eqtn
Resso is missing

------
SmokeyHamster
Good on India. They're smarter than we are.

------
euix
I rather look at this from a rational pov then moral grandstand from one soap
box or another, since I have no dog in this fight.

My thinking is, this would be a good casus belli for India if they have the
national ability to develop home grown alternatives.

If you look at the evolution of the Chinese market, one of the key reasons
China was able to develop a vast and independent internet ecosystem was its
ability to ban the U.S. based groups such as Youtube, Google, facebook all at
select political moments. Had the Chinese never done this, there is no way its
domestic eco-system would have developed the way it has. At best foreign firms
would own a substantial minority share, instead the Chinese firms like Alibaba
and Tencent were able to consolidate monopolistic positions at home and then
use that as a base to expand outwards into SEA, India and other developing
markets, thereby challenging what would otherwise be a U.S. based monopoly on
leading information technology.

From a nation building and state capitalist perspective it was actually quite
a smart move. At the time, the western content providers were all banned at
one point or another based on individual political reasons (Google hacking,
arab spring..etc) and while there were political reasons to do so (censor and
control the discourse of Chinese popular opinion) there was vast economic
benefits down the road. I am sure the high level thinking in policy making in
China recognize this "two birds with one stone" aspect.

I suspect India would like to do something similar. Right now the "foreign
barbarians" in India are not the technologically more advance American firms
like in China's days in the 90's. It's cash rich and state backed Chinese
firms (Alibaba, Tencent, Xiaomi, Douyin, and the like).

So seizing this as a good excuse to maybe not outright ban (we don't know if
the TikTok ban won't be reversed at a later time) but even to throttle and
restrict them in the domestic Indian market, provided there are domestic
alternatives that can built up would be a good move 10-20 years down the road.
Or even better, use the opportunity to shake down and force more technology
transfer from the Chinese firms in return for market access. India like China
has a sufficiently large population and thereby potential domestic market to
pursue this strategy.

------
Darmody
I'm absolutely against banning things but TikTok should be banned until we
figure out how to protect ourselves from bad actors like the CCP.

~~~
unishark
I'm not sure that "absolutely" is the right word for you here.

------
nobrains
I don't see how Chinese apps are somehow bad, while the equivalent American
apps are not bad. That's being naive.

------
qserasera
The US should at least consider banning TikTok for its predatory practices as
well as other apps on its level posthaste.

------
ausjke
Please ban them in US too. WeChat in particular is used to train their
censorship AI engine.

------
happppy
yeah, block apps when you can't win a war.

------
jdkee
Your move Apple.

------
tomohawk
The Chinese government moved in martial artists and elite alpine troops to the
area. Shortly there after, a number of unarmed Indian soldiers end up dead in
the same area.

[https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/china-sent-
marti...](https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/china-sent-martial-
artists-to-india-border-before-deadly-clash-state-media)

This is small potatoes compared to the concentration camps and genocide and
ethic cleansing being forced on Tibet and East Turkistan (what CCP calls
Xinjiang). Or to the forced harvesting of organs from living political
dissidents.

[https://chinatribunal.com/](https://chinatribunal.com/)

What will it take?

~~~
stevens32
I read through the tribunal report expecting some sort of evidence, instead it
uses guestimates to arrive at numbers for transplant volume then says there's
no possible way the organs could've come from volunteers due to that volume.
China has 4 times the population of the US, and right about 4 times the amount
of transplants claimed in the report.

------
HariPavan
does banning these apps do any good for the Indian Government? It just like
taking revenge on Chinese companies rather than china gov.

------
ericls
US should’ve done this months ago.

------
Learn2win
mega censorship!

------
femg
like this kind of bans so I know with Apps are good. haha.

------
tivonn
god bless

------
electro_blah
Yeah, I'm sure this has nothing to do with them killing Indian soldiers. it's
sad how this is more bigger news than that.

------
notsag-hn
I am really amazed to read so many people talking of chinese companies as the
greatest threat for our privacy as opposed to american tech companies, do you
guys even read the news or just Trump's Twitter account? This is not about the
US or China, they are part of this game but (illegally) harvesting data is a
global trend that most likely includes you and the company you're working for.
Do you want to change the world? Challenge your boss on the information you
collect on your users and the practices you use to facilitate them being
tracked instead of fighting China 24/7 on the internet, be smarter than a
20-lines-of-code bot, please.

------
blunderkid
You'd imagine the Chinese communists would be smarter having been in business
for 50 years now. But when pushed into a corner on taking the responsibility
for the deadly virus, all they can think of is grabbing land and starting wars
with their unfortunate neighbors. But better sooner than later. Now you know
that when the dragon becomes a super power, it will be nasty, petty,
manipulative, bloody, totalitarian & downright ugly. American capitalism
propped up CCP. But CCP covets land and power more than money. And they'd
rather go to war with their neighbors than accept that they were responsible
for the breakout and the spread. The only fault of TikTok, just like that of
Huawei and every other Chinese company is that their ultimate masters is the
CCP. And yes that's enough reason to ban them.

------
hnal943
People seem to be missing the point that Chinese Apps are literally spying on
their users. iOS just released a patch to keep TikTok from scraping users'
clipboards.

------
abinaya_rl
All other democratic countries should join India in banning Chinese apps

Don’t allow Chinese apps until they open their own market to freely allow
foreign apps like Google, Facebook, Youtube etc to function

------
dqpb
I wonder if/how China will use the tiktok data when all these teens are
adults.

------
sloshnmosh
Here in the USA, Android phones with pre-installed Chinese malware and
unremovable rootkit (fota/Over-the-air firmware update app) is given out to
our most vulnerable citizens and disabled veterans through the government
assistance “Lifeline” program.

------
pmarreck
Good.

Free societies should be completely isolated from societies without remotely
the same liberties, human rights or sense of ethics.

If you make money off a country because it permits its workers to be enslaved
and paid a pittance, you both support the ongoing enslavement AND reward the
leaders of that country. This is a devils' tradeoff.

------
shaan1
I think this is a good move. With China banning apps from other countries, its
right for India to do. We should be doing the same thing in the US

------
vijaybritto
China moved into Indian territory and has killed 20 Indian soldiers and this
is how India is retaliating. The prime minister is not even mentioning China
in his speeches or tweets. This has been a disaster for our country.

~~~
stevens32
Don't worry, apparently India has "snapped the necks of at least 18 PLA"

[https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/indian-soldiers-
merciless...](https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/indian-soldiers-mercilessly-
killed-chinese-pla-troops-after-their-co-fell-report)

~~~
vijaybritto
swarajya mag is not a news source. They're blatantly biased.

Also this news is not confirmed. Just speculation which is enough to make the
public feel good.

~~~
stevens32
This is super late, but if you see this - care to clarify what the bias is?

------
ipiz0618
Considering the recent crisis that's brewing between the two, it's a rational
move for India to not let China get more intelligence data so easily.

From a humanitarian point of view, everyone in the world should uninstall
these apps as they help collecting data for censorship in China [1].

Also, apart from being a spyware, TikTok is simply a dangerous app which
brings much harm to society [2].

[1] - [https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/we-chat-they-
watch/](https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/we-chat-they-watch/)

[2] - [https://nypost.com/2020/02/13/the-dumb-dangerous-
challenges-...](https://nypost.com/2020/02/13/the-dumb-dangerous-
challenges-..).

------
Andrew_nenakhov
This should have been done a long time ago. Chinese services have an
unrestricted access to their local user base + users of the whole world, while
services from any other countries might easily be blocked in China for one
reason or another, thus reducing their potential user base by several hundred
million of users. Even without the sinister political reasons behind the
censorship by the CCP it would be an unfair competition.

------
bitstorm999
Is it me or does this domain fail to resolve via cloudflare?

[user@host tmp]$ nslookup pib.gov.in 8.8.8.8 Server: 8.8.8.8 Address:
8.8.8.8#53

Non-authoritative answer: Name: pib.gov.in Address: 164.100.117.99

[user@host tmp]$ nslookup pib.gov.in 1.1.1.1 Server: 1.1.1.1 Address:
1.1.1.1#53

 __server can 't find pib.gov.in: SERVFAIL

------
SoulMan
Interestingly even before this ban, there has been a movement (at least by
armchair critics in Social Media) to uninstall Chinese apps. People started
installing this unknown app "Remove china apps" to get rid of the apps that
Chinese phone makers like Xiomi does not let you remove.

People started removing Chinese apps not because of national security but
because they thought it would stop boosting Chinese economy which in turn will
come as defense budget

Bigger question is how do you stop the market penetration of mobiles like
Oppo/Vivo/Xiomi etc and all the Startups like Ola/Flipkart which is backed by
Chinese investment.

[https://www.indiatvnews.com/technology/news-remove-china-
app...](https://www.indiatvnews.com/technology/news-remove-china-apps-removed-
from-google-play-store-how-to-install-android-623335)

~~~
Avamander
That "Remove China" app was also removed from Google Play:
[https://gadgets.ndtv.com/apps/news/remove-china-apps-
google-...](https://gadgets.ndtv.com/apps/news/remove-china-apps-google-play-
android-suspension-2239810)

------
factorialboy
Am I the only one concerned about how TikTok is promoting child pornography by
serving as a gateway for young girls and boys to prostitution apps such as
OnlyFans?

I think this is a bigger concern than loss of privacy.

Those comparing loss of privacy for Indians on US apps / platforms compared to
Chinese apps / platforms, China and India are openly hostile.

US and India are not. This is a big difference.

~~~
crispyporkbites
I wouldn’t compare onlyfans to prostitution, it’s not the same as going out on
the street. If anything it’s empowering.

~~~
factorialboy
Not for a 9 yr old.

~~~
crispyporkbites
I guess we should ban all adult apps and services. Think of the children.

------
bg24
From the page: "At the same time, there have been raging concerns on aspects
relating to data security and safeguarding the privacy of 130 crore Indians.
It has been noted recently that such concerns also pose a threat to
sovereignty and security of our country. The Ministry of Information
Technology has received many complaints from various sources including several
reports about misuse of some mobile apps available on Android and iOS
platforms for stealing and surreptitiously transmitting users’ data in an
unauthorized manner to servers which have locations outside India. The
compilation of these data, its mining and profiling by elements hostile to
national security and defence of India, which ultimately impinges upon the
sovereignty and integrity of India, is a matter of very deep and immediate
concern which requires emergency measures."

Thank you, India, for keeping national security first. Hoping it is for the
long haul and the decision should not change in a meeting.

