
Provo-Orem area ranked 11th for high-tech startups - vyrotek
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/moving-up-provo-orem-area-ranked-th-for-high-tech/article_0561db21-7dd1-52a8-a14d-7c41a223aade.html
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Dobbs
The problem with the Orem Provo area isnt the jobs but the fact that you then
have to live there.

The food choices are sparse and honestly compared to places like Seattle,
Chicago, and SF down right terrible.

Shopping is mostly limited to big box shops like Target, Macy's and the like.

To be completely frank the biggest issue is the monoculture. If you aren't
white and Mormon you don't fit in and it is very obvious.

Granted there are upsides like the mountain sides for camping and skiing. Also
Harmon's is an extremely nice grocery store.

~~~
jaytaylor
I lived in Provo and Orem for a number of years while I was attending
University, and I feel you've nailed some of the major issues. Life was
drastically different there compared to where I grew up (and now live) in the
Bay Area.

One on-topic aspect I appreciated about Utah was the quality of the Computer
Science program at Utah Valley University. The chance to learn from experts
like Chuck Allison [1] and David Heldenbrand truly expanded my mind and was an
incredible opportunity. Really, all the CS faculty was excellent and
commendably eager to do the teaching themselves rather than offloading the
most critical parts to TA's. Given the high ratio of religious fanatics in the
surrounding region, the school is a remarkably open and progressive
institution.

As soon as I finished school I moved back to Palo Alto and would never
consider returning to Utah other than to visit friends, go
skiing/snowboarding, or go to hike at Moab or Zion National Park.

I definitely wouldn't recommend going to Provo or Orem to start a tech
company.

To put things in perspective: Provo is 29 short highway miles from Eagle
Mountain, which is primarily composed of polygamist compounds. I'm not saying
there is anything wrong with being a polygamist; it was just a surprise to
find out about it only after several years of living in Provo.

There is a reason that Provo and Orem often referred to as the "Utah Valley
Bubble". It is an isolated community and if you aren't Mormon you will likely
pretty strange when you discover how poorly you fit in with the homogeneous
culture.

With that being said, there are some upsides to operating a business in Utah
Valley:

You can hire high-quality engineers for pennies (or perhaps a quarter) on the
dollar compared to other places. At one point I interviewed at Omniture, and
they scoffed at the salary I asked for.

People who live in Utah Valley are also less likely to move away as much
compared to other places, because their immediate and extended families tend
to live nearby. This means that it is possible to expect to retain employees
for much longer period of times than in a place such as Silicon Valley.

Finally: If you are into discriminating against people for their sexual
orientation, it is completely legal to do so in Utah. There is no legal
protection from sexual orientation discrimination in Utah.

[1]
[https://www.google.com/search?q=chuck+allison](https://www.google.com/search?q=chuck+allison)

~~~
casualcomments
Mind if I rearrange your enlightened comment?

 _If you are into discriminating against people for their sexual orientation,
that is actually completely within the bounds of the law in Utah (if that 's
what you're into).

I definitely wouldn't recommend going to Provo or Orem... where there are many
polygamists._

Keep in mind that, until relatively recently, homosexuality was as socially
taboo, if not more so, than polygamy. Now, I won't weigh in on whether it's
fair to group the two; perhaps it's not. But before you publicly castigate a
community for their views on a particular sexual orientation, you should
refrain from committing the same offense.

~~~
logjam
Mind if we ask you to rearrange your own comment, or at least clarify any
differences, if any, you may happen to see between....oh...innate sexual
orientation... and the historic and recent practice of polygamy in Utah. Maybe
you'd comment on anything you know about the leaders of recent polygamist
"churches" and their treatment of women and their attitude toward and/or
behavior around sex with children.

You know. Since, yeah, you not-so-disingenuously went ahead and grouped
polygamy with homosexuality as both somehow innate "sexual orientations", as
you groped toward analogy.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Polygamy is very damaging to the community. The boys they have to kick out to
support the high female/make ratios become wards of the state, have little
education, and it's just a sad state of affairs. This and the pervasive child
rape going on, there are good reasons for the UT AG to be harsh on this.

------
antics
A lot of the comments here claim that the deal breaker here is the culture.
This could come off as glib, but is Silicon Valley really in any position to
be complaining about another culture being too homogeneous, or too exclusive
of "different" demographics (e.g., I dunno, women)? Don't make me laugh.

This is particularly disappointing because there are much better reasons to
justify your decisions to not found your startup in Utah. Let's start with the
fact that the investment scene, and in particular, the angel scene, is
completely and utterly toxic.

I won't go into specifics, because badmouthing people on the Internet is mean,
but most of funding (especially angel funding) in Utah is structured as a
competition, where startups compete for money. The result is that there is no
camaraderie between companies in the way that there is in, say, NYC or the bay
area. People are friendly, but there is not really any knowledge ventilation
because the angels cultivate this atmosphere of competition. The result is a
divisive and poisonous atmosphere that is antithetical (IMHO) to hacker
culture. In my experience, this lack of sharing knowledge makes it quite hard
to build things. You're extremely unlikely to find a successful coworking
space here, for example.

So ultimately, the talent pool here is deep, but until this cultural problem
is fixed, Utah will always be a distant 11th to other venues.

EDIT: and before we all jump on the hate train, I'm an avowed atheist who left
Mormonism. I don't _like_ the culture here either, but let's not forget that
Sili Valley needs to pull its head out of its ass on a pretty regular basis
too.

EDIT 2: and for reference, I graduated in CS from the University of Utah this
year (2013). So my experiences are pretty fresh.

~~~
letney
I'll give another good reason to avoid living there: The air quality along the
Wasatch Front (Ogden, Salt Lake, & Provo) is among the worst in the nation.
[http://www.stateoftheair.org/2013/city-rankings/most-
pollute...](http://www.stateoftheair.org/2013/city-rankings/most-polluted-
cities.html) ranks the Provo-Orem area as the 11th highest nationwide for
short-term particle pollution (SLC being #6 and Logan being #10).

I left Salt Lake City 6 years ago. I miss many aspects of life there and have
considered moving back. But the air quality there is an absolute deal breaker.
The winter inversions are absolutely miserable.

~~~
dmgrow
The good news is that this has become a forefront issue. Governor Herbert has
started making air quality a priority, but also key local groups like Envision
Utah.

Fixing the inversion problem though will take active involvement from the
community. If we could get 1/3 of the cars off the road on the 10 days/year it
mattered the most, it would be a game-changer. The tech companies in the area
could make a big difference in this effort if they let their collective
thousands of employees work from home on those days.

~~~
letney
While I think its wonderful news that it has become a priority, I remain
pessimistic. The geography of the valley cannot be changed and combined with
the common high-pressure weather patterns the air is trapped for weeks at a
time.

Even with massive cut-backs in emissions our industrial economy and expanding
population ensures this will remain a problem long into the future.

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morgante
The problem with the methodology is that it's based on density, which is far
from all that matters. The fact that a startup industry exists within a larger
industry doesn't really detract from the vibrant startup community. If
anything, it enhances it.

It's pretty telling that New York isn't even mentioned in that report despite
there being areas in the city where every other office is a startup.

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ortusdux
The actual study:

[http://www.kauffman.org/uploadedFiles/bds-tech-starts-
report...](http://www.kauffman.org/uploadedFiles/bds-tech-starts-report.pdf)

~~~
generj
Reading the full study, I was surprised how big Colorado was in startups,
especially areas like Boulder.

I anticipated moving out to the Austin TX area after college for a startup
experience. I can't afford the California tax, both the government and other
cost of living expenses.

Colorado is gorgeous, and so is the Wasatch front. I'll be looking more
aggressively for jobs in those areas.

~~~
dekayed
Do you not feel like you can get a good startup experience in Austin?

~~~
generj
No, I absolutely feel I can get a good startup experience in Austin.

I just prefer skiing over humidity :)

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nostromo
Being 11th on a power law distribution with so few samples isn't a good place
to be.

Even being 2nd means you'll have to fight more than twice as hard for
resources.

------
diziet
If we were to think about the distribution of companies and opportunities, I
would think that the power law distribution would be most appropriate. Being
#11 when even #2 and #3 just don't match up isn't exactly something to be
proud of.

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blackaspen
Good to hear that other areas are growing.

Boulder has the same issue of people leaving though. Both because of a lack of
money and because of a lack of physical space for companies to move to. Rally
Software manages to find space inside Boulder, but it's difficult.

So, then companies that incubate here leave and make it seem like startups
aren't flourishing. Like Next Big Sound or PlaceIQ. Investors sometimes need
to help companies stay where they are from instead of artificially
perpetuating the idea that small startup communities exist solely for feeding
the Silicon Valley brain pool. The valley is an awful place to actually live.

------
jjindev
I drove up the I-15 a couple weeks ago, and was surprised that when I hit
northern Utah I saw a couple tech-recruitment billboards. We don't have those
down in Orange Country.

------
jergason
I am biased since I am a local, but Utah Valley is on the cusp of recognition
as a tech hotbed. Just in our office park in the corner of Provo, we have

    
    
      1. http://www.ancestry.com/
      2. http://www.qualtrics.com/
      3. us, http://i.tv
      4. http://www.moneydesktop.com/
      5. http://www.vivint.com/en/, recently bought for $2 billion[0]
    

There are also a bunch of other smaller tech companies.

[http://www.domo.com/](http://www.domo.com/) and the Adobe campus are also
about 10 minutes away, and there are various tech companies scattered all the
way up through Salt Lake.

[http://www.ng-conf.org/](http://www.ng-conf.org/) is coming to SLC next year,
and the local tech meetups are active and widely attended. Combine the good
tech scene with the extremely low cost of living and it is a great place to
be.

    
    
      0: http://seekingalpha.com/article/878211-blackstone-buys-vivint-what-you-need-to-know

~~~
saosebastiao
I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that vivint is a tech company.
They are a sales company that sells technology that is entirely developed out
of house.

~~~
jergason
I'm familiar with Vivint's history. They are in the midst of an attempted
transition towards becoming a tech company, partially to escape the terrible
reputation they developed when they were APX.

------
oscargrouch
I think this type of "next sylicon valley" stuff pretty misleading..

SV is what it is because of its pionerism.. after the first seed give its
fruits to the world, the tendency now is people for different places and
backgrounds start their own things in their own countries.. so we gonna start
to see the next microsofts , googles and apples comming from other places as
well.. without any connection between those places..

the infrastructure of course is essential.. so those SV wannabes will need to
have and provide a fertile ground to those tech seed have some growth..

the word is multipluralism and descentralization.. the internet have started a
true globalization movement.. and lets recall that SV started to grow and
became what it is before this phenomena..

it was a flower in the desert.. but for now on, big things will start to
happen in unespected places..

no need to search for the next silicon valley.. it will pop everywhere now

------
jwarkentin
As a developer here I'm constantly getting contacted by recruiters. I live
half way between Salt Lake and Provo so I can go either direction, but there
definitely is a lot going on in the tech industry here.

~~~
vyrotek
Lehi? That's where I'm at :)

~~~
jwarkentin
I'm in Herriman. I almost bought a house in Lehi :) I currently commute to
Downtown Salt Lake for work though. It's about a 30-35 minute drive for me in
either direction.

~~~
vyrotek
Ha, I was just the opposite! Almost bought a house in Herriman. This is as far
south as I'll ever move though :P

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naiyt
This would be great for me, except I've lived in Utah my entire life and
really want to leave the state once I finish school.

~~~
Jach
I left as soon as I could go to school out of state. :) Occasionally relatives
will tell me of the booming tech economy and point out Adobe's "big building".
It's hard to describe just how much bigger Microsoft's offices are and the
land mass they occupy. (Also I don't know anyone who works at Adobe but I
suspect there's a pay gap too.)

~~~
vyrotek
Definitely! Microsoft invited my startup out to Redmond for a week (Azure beta
stuff) and I couldn't believe how huge that campus is! I would move to Seattle
in a heartbeat if the cost-of-living difference wasn't so shocking. I'd also
love to work at Microsoft someday too. We'll see... :)

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vyrotek
Now we just need to work on the funding part. Lots of startups still leave
Utah when they need to raise anything larger than $500k+. Our startup went
through an incubator and then raised a seed round from Angels just fine but
there seems to be a serious lack of larger funding around here.

~~~
dmgrow
I agree that this seems to be one of the major lags. Though we are based in
Utah, my company raised our seed round entirely from investors outside of Utah
(Google Ventures, 500Startups, etc.).

We only had to do one thing to double our valuation -- book a plane ticket
from the Salt Lake airport to San Francisco.

------
grahamburger
I live in the area and I'd love to be more involved in the startup scene here.
What do we have going on? Anyone looking for a 30 year old computing polymath
to join your Utah startup?

