
Ineligible Bachelors: Indian Men Living in U.S. Strike Out - rglovejoy
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123896998996190775.html
======
plinkplonk
A more sensible interpretation is that marriage and courtship rituals
("courtship" extended to include "casual" relationships) have a heavy culture
specific component to them.

I had a Canadian manager (tall handsome intelligent guy) who tried applying
his knowledge of how "dating" worked when he was posted to Bangalore for a
year and "struck out" all the time until one day, at a party, he got drunk and
asked me "Dude, how the [expletive] do you get laid hereabouts? I've been
trying to get a date for 6 months and every girl says "No Thanks". I am going
crazy! ".

So I gave him a 20 minute crash lecture in how these things worked in India
(and specifically Urban India) and the appropriate moves and counter moves and
what they mean and how to interpret and act on them. Needless to say these
"rules" are very different from the Western "dating". To his credit he picked
up the 'rules of the game' very fast and soon managed to get what he wanted.

When any bunch of people get dumped into a new culture, it is fair to expect
that a few of them never quite pick up these nuances. Whether that is worth an
article in the wsj is a different matter ;-). I could conclude (if had never
been in a Western country) "These Canadians strike out all the time hyuk
hyuk",and it might even make a popular article in the local paper, but then
I'd still be the idiot.

To summarize, the Indian "dating game" has very different rules, and they
don't work in the USA (and vice versa). For Hackers an analogy that works is
submitting perfectly valid Haskell code to the javac compiler ;-)

Due Disclosure: I am Indian, have lived in the USA and had no problems
"decoding" how courtship, sex and marriage worked there.

~~~
falsestprophet
Please share the rules you are talking about. I think a lot of us Westerners
would be interested to read about this foreign world.

~~~
plinkplonk
"Please share the rules you are talking about."

When I have the time I'll probably write it up as a blog post (or a series of
posts! 20 minutes of conversation is a lot of writing!) and submit the link
here.

------
zaidf
If I have learned one thing about arranged marriages from my close-knit
extended family of 100+, it is that no two arranged marriages are same.

The ONE element that almost all arranged marriages I've seen do have in common
is SOME strong referral or existing friendship between the two families. In
that sense, they work a lot like VC referrals:)

The type of arranged marriage most common to my larger family is a love
marriage. Oxymoron you say? Well, not really. What happens is the girl and guy
meet(usually at school) and gradually word starts spreading. When the news
makes its way to the parents, if the parents know the other family and approve
of it, you are _usually_ good to go. The "love marriage" is smoothly converted
into an "arranged marriage". All my uncles(and my father) got married through
this route.

I guess I am just not sure of how common the stereotype arranged marriage
where a dude is forcefully dumped on a girl is. Notice all the negative
connotation that is assumed by the stereotype.

All the while I have a few aunts who got married without having seen the guy
until wedding day. This was may be 30 years ago. They are all still married
and pretty happy. Lastly, with 50+ couples in my extended family in last 40
years, there have been fewer than five divorces(credit to Geni for handy
stats).

So does this process seem weird? Hell yes. Could it result in happy marriages?
Seems like it, at least for one family.

~~~
niyazpk
"All my uncles(including my Dad)"

I think the statement is mathematically incorrect.

~~~
qw
Not necessarily. If his parents were brother and sister, his dad would also be
his uncle.

But the OP most likely meant "All my uncles AND my dad"

------
randomwalker
Or, maybe, here's a radical thought--the next time one of these men meets
someone he likes, he could ask her out.

The whole arranged marriage nonsense is a blight on the Indian community.
Needless to say, it often leads to loveless marriages; further, the fact that
you're making life decisions based on scant information results in bizarre
situations like the consultant in the article who can't find a wife because
they all think consultant means unemployed.

I can only welcome any development that forces people to change.

//Indian person. Fortunately distanced from the absurdity.

~~~
param
I think you generalized a lot of things there. I personally am arranged
married, and I couldn't be happier. I have a lot of friends who are in the
same situation (even ones who are 10+ years into marriage). I also know people
who married in 'love' that are not so happy today.

Additionally, arranged marriages need not be 'see someone for 10 mins and say
yes or no'. There is a large variation in how the whole thing can potentially
be set up. See
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arranged_marriage#Arguments_for...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arranged_marriage#Arguments_for_and_against_Arranged_Marriage)
for a list of pros and cons that gives you both sides of the story.

~~~
Hexstream
"I think you generalized a lot of things there. I personally am arranged
married, and I couldn't be happier. I have a lot of friends who are in the
same situation (even ones who are 10+ years into marriage). I also know people
who married in 'love' that are not so happy today."

Of course. If you didn't have the choice of who to marry then you resign
yourself to the notion. But if you made the decision yourself then you'll
always wonder if maybe you could have chosen someone way better for you. There
was a TED presentation about this some time ago...

(Not saying it's not possible that the particular arranged marriage may have
matched you with the best person for you anyway)

~~~
dkarl
You're right; nobody would ever suffer long-term anger and resentment at
decisions that somebody else made for them; it doesn't make sense. It was out
of my hands, so I'm totally okay with it! That's why teenagers and their
parents get along so well, why women didn't really want the vote, and why
working in a bureaucracy is so good for your mental health.

~~~
Hexstream
No no, seriously. There was a TED presentation about this unintuitive
phenomenon. It was posted here a while ago.

[http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_...](http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.html)

edit: Fixed the link, it wasn't the one I meant to link to.

~~~
dkarl
Yeah, I know you're serious. I'm just pointing out that there's a difference
(and evidently one that is important psychologically) between a situation
where there is only one possibility and a situation where there are many
possibilities, but somebody else chooses for you. I know people who stayed
angry for years because their parents made them go to a certain college or
their boss canceled a product line they created.

------
blizkreeg
I don't quite understand this attitude I've often found here of people to
dissect, "try to understand", and take a swipe at what's wrong about other
cultures, point out how some attributes of other cultures are so deviant and
then take a higher stand, a higher ground on those issues.

Frankly, if you haven't been born and/or brought up in a certain culture, you
simply will not be able to understand some peculiar aspects about it. Yes,
there are good and the not-so-good aspects and takeaways about every culture
on this planet. But I sometimes find the tone of such articles and some of the
comments in this discussion not only mildly condescending but also biased. I
was born and brought up in India by fairly open-minded and unorthodox parents.
And so were many of my friends.

Correct me if I'm wrong. This is not an intelligent article, or discussion.
It's in fact a very superficial look at the best. This is just an informative
article and in no way representative of the large group of "Indian Men" living
in the states. It beats me how the writer takes a few examples and on a
respected daily as the WSJ blatantly labels it as "Indian Men Living in US
Strike Out.

Why are we even discussing this here?

~~~
jibiki
> Frankly, if you haven't been born and/or brought up in a certain culture,
> you simply will not be able to understand some peculiar aspects about it.

A true statement, but not necessarily relevant. For instance, I cannot
understand Aztec culture, because I have not experienced it. I condemn it
nonetheless.

~~~
blizkreeg
Your condemnation does not really have any place in the scheme of things,
history, or a bearing on that culture for that matter. I'm not trying to be
harsh here. I hope you understand my fundamental point. A culture is a
culture, it's a consequence of history, time, and innumerable subtle things
and relationships. Just as the American culture is, many aspects of which
people outside America condemn. But it doesn't matter.

Outsiders attempting to generalize, analyze, dissect, and fix things about
cultures they barely understand more often than not cause historical and
irreversible damage.

~~~
jibiki
> Outsiders attempting to generalize, analyze, dissect, and fix things about
> cultures they barely understand more often than not cause historical and
> irreversible damage.

Maybe it can also cause progress? For instance, the condemnation of Apartheid
by the western world probably helped end it.

(I don't mean to say arranged marriage is the same as Apartheid, obviously.)

~~~
blizkreeg
The concept and system of arranged marriages is not something that needs
fixing. It has evolved and will continue to evolve to adapt to changing
conditions and attitudes among the youth and parents in India. A marriage is
much larger than whether it was arranged or born out of
(fleeting/puppy/divine/heavenly) love.

~~~
jibiki
The concept and system of _Apartheid_ is not something that needs fixing. It
has evolved and will continue to evolve to adapt to changing conditions and
attitudes.

~~~
blizkreeg
Well, obviously I didn't mean that Apartheid was a concept or system. And you
know that.

~~~
jibiki
My point is that your argument validly defends Apartheid. It is a standard (if
somewhat impolite) rhetorical technique to parrot your opponent's arguments in
a way that makes them seem obviously flawed.

~~~
sharkbrainguy
I should probably be downvoted into oblivion for this but...

Is this actually a valid use of "Reductio Ad Hitlerum"? Surely such a thing is
rare and beautiful.

------
Mgreen
I live in the South Indian state of Kerala. Here 'arranged marriage' means
parents and relatives get a chance to background-check the future partner
before you do. So for a girl, this means your parents check on the boy's
character , his earning potential , the way his parents made money and other
related aspects. If parents are happy, a meeting is arranged.If the girl and
boy likes to go forward with a relationship, they can take time to know each
other.If everything goes well, proceed to marriage.

In short, its like dating with the fittest. All marriages in my family
happened this way, and we dont have even a single case of divorce in my
family.

~~~
kurumban
poda pulle nayinte mone. The sick orthodox views of the people of Kerala is
debilitating to the modern man. One is expected to stay celibate till the age
pf marriage which tends to be around age 25. Suppression of hormonal urges has
a crippling effect on the mind. College life in Kerala is the worst all over
India. Apart from the impossibility to have sex thanks to the conservative
views of the mallu girls, there's also a phenomenon called ragging which makes
life even worse. I for one hate Kerala and call it the Devil's own country.To
MGreen, you need some introspection; the culuture of Kerala is one that I
despise beyond all. patti chetteh kazhidhe thendi

~~~
Mgreen
I was just trying to explain how 'arranged marriages' work in my family and
that the success rate of the system is pretty good in my experience.

Sex at college is a different aspect. Its true that the social setup doesn't
encourage sex while you are at college. But i think the reason is not just an
'orthodox view' of Keralaites. Males mostly stay with parents until they
finish college(&& get a job) and are fully dependent on parents
financially.'Work while you study' is almost non-existant here. Perhaps girls
just dont want to take the risk of hanging out with someone who doesn't have
any proven earning potential(yet). At the end of the day, getting a girl
depends on how you approach the girl !

Sorry to hear that you had bad experiences with 'ragging' at college. I never
had any such issues. Infact, my seniors were very helpful throughout my
college life.

I see that you created an account just to make that comment with personal
insults against me. Try sticking on to the guidelines and keep HN a nice
place: <http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

~~~
GeneralMaximus
I know a few guys who have a lot of sex in college - all of them are already
making more money than one usually makes working for one of those so-called
tech giants (HCL, Wipro, blah).

Earning potential = sex. No, seriously.

------
mynameishere
_In contrast, in the U.S., "people have to even clean their own toilets,"_

You know, I could easily afford to have someone clean my toilet. In fact, our
receptionist offered to be my housekeeper, at good terms. But...I don't
know...I just don't want 3rd parties involved in the matter. I guess it's my
lower-middle class heritage thing.

~~~
patio11
Partially a cultural thing, too. Americans don't do "servants", for certain
values of "servant".

Similarly, if you come to Japan and try to explain babysitting, you get looks
of total horror.

"Yes, I think its perfectly normal to talk to a mother I know, get the name of
a 13 year old girl who lives in the neighborhood, pay her $20 so that I can
have an evening out with my wife, and entrust my home and infant child to her
within 5 minutes of meeting her. You find this odd?"

~~~
plinkplonk
"if you come to Japan and try to explain babysitting, you get looks of total
horror."

My (Indian) mother was horrified when an American woman told her she(the
American) was paid by her daughter to babysit her grand kids. The idea of
turning baby sitting grandchildren into a "commercial transaction" was a
horrifying thought to her.

just another example of "different folks, different strokes".

~~~
netcan
it is

------
geebee
A lot of people forget how recently westerns imported brides of their own. My
family arrived in San Francisco from Quebec in the mid 1840s, but my
grandfather (married in the late 1930s) was the first to stop importing french
speaking brides. It went on for generations. Sheesh.

That said, I'm really, really, really glad he put an end to this little
tradition of ours.

------
deepakjois
I find it shocking that some Indian men have such attitudes, despite having
spent time in places like the US.

<quote> Given the difficulty in finding matches for Indians abroad, some
matchmakers are now charging them more. Mr. Dave of Klassic Match charges a
minimum fee of $100, versus $50 for candidates living in India. He charges
more for specific requirements. For instance, he says some overseas Indians
want a bride who is smart, fluent in English, and "simultaneously, docile in
the house." He says such women are now harder to find, so he bumps up his fees
for some searches. </quote>

~~~
cglee
Another explanation could be that the Indians in the US are mostly engineers,
who skew towards being introverted. I'm guessing wildly here, but my point is
that it could be more than cultural factors at play.

------
DannoHung
India has some weird cultural aspects that I do not find appealing personally.

I had an Indian friend on a H1-B who talked a lot about getting a wife that
cooked and cleaned and stuff and I always asked him, "Why not just hire a
maid? Probably be cheaper." He could never come up with a good response.

I guess these attitudes come from being raised in a culture where it's the
norm. I've got another few friends who are first generation and they never
talked about anything like that at all. Makes me wonder what fundamental
change in Indian society will disrupt those attitudes; will a simple increase
in per capita income and an equalization of the labor pool do it, or is it at
a more ingrained level?

~~~
petercooper
_I guess these attitudes come from being raised in a culture where it's the
norm._

I don't know where you live but the "woman as homekeeper" thing is the norm in
most Western societies too. Women have, of course, worked throughout history
but, culturally, it's been more the norm so far that women have taken
housemaker and child raising roles. My mom left her job when she met my father
and she has never been employed since. The same applies for about half, I'd
say, of my friends' family situations.

It is not unrealistic or old fashioned for people who agree on their roles to
settle into those roles. There is nothing wrong with anyone looking for
someone who complements them as long as the intentions are good. Indeed,
finding someone who doesn't complement you is more likely to result in
disastrous relations.

~~~
deepakjois
It is an interesting point you raise. It is perfectly acceptable to agree on
roles and settle into them.

But in this case, my guess is that these attitudes have more to do with
holding onto a traditional belief in male-dominance than with any concerns for
having different roles in marriage. And if I am guessing correct, such beliefs
should not be encouraged and nor is it in the interest of any woman to seek
out such a partner for herself.

~~~
petercooper
Oh, totally. The issue, for me, is when society _demands_ people act in a
certain way. If my mom, my wife, or whoever, _wants_ to be a house wife, I'm
all for that. But if they wanted to be an artist, rock star, or whatever, no-
one should stop them (well, except in my wife's case because she's tone deaf).

All that said, I don't see a problem in people specifying a "docile" housewife
as a preference, no more than someone might want a "blonde" wife, a
"nymphomaniac", or any such thing. Just because you prefer something doesn't
mean you have the right to get it but nor does it mean you're "wrong" for
having that preference as long as you don't force it on anyone else.

------
muon
The article is full of typical stereotypes attributed to Indians.

------
tokenadult
The submitted article mentioned an ad describing one prospect as a "brahmin
boy." How pervasive is caste as a selection criterion for arranged marriages?

------
sethg
Coincidentally, the _Boston Globe Magazine_ 's "Coupling" feature just ran an
essay by an Indian attorney living in DC, who has been ashamed to admit that
her parents bought a newspaper ad and arranged an introduction to the man whom
she will marry this summer.

[http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/magazine/articles/2009/04/...](http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/magazine/articles/2009/04/05/help_wanted_after_all/)

------
whacked_new
Anybody have more stories to share about this? I am wondering how difficult a
problem this is. Most of the Indians I have met in the US are all extremely
competent with very good looks to match; this article was very surprising.

~~~
menloparkbum
It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a guy's looks or competence.
In an arranged marriage the practical factors take precedence. Marrying a guy
who is supposed to support you and your future family, but only makes
$80K-$100K a year in the Bay Area simply isn't very practical.

------
whacked_new
Fascinating article. I read a report about Chinese brides recently that found
a huge dip in interest of marrying overseas. Something like 20% or 40%. I'll
dig up the article if anybody is interested.

