

Don't Drop Out to Do a Startup - cyang08
http://blog.christianyang.com/2013/01/02/dont-drop-out-to-do-a-startup/

======
diego
Anecdotal evidence + overgeneralization + bad usage of statistics. For
example:

 _"If we use wealth as a measure of success, Forbes’ January 2012 edition
reveals that about 85% of America’s 400 Richest People (shown left) do, in
fact, have a college degree."_

So there is a correlation between extreme wealth and college education. What
does that show? Do you account for the fact that rich families have a much
easier time sending their kids to college? If you flip it and say "15% of
America's 400 richest people don't even have a college degree" that sounds
impressive as well. What did you expect? What does that have to do with
startups?

I abhor these empty advice posts based on a single data point. I wouldn't give
out generic advice about whether to stay in school or not, that's a personal
decision that completely depends on the circumstances.

~~~
cyang08
Fair point about a single number not painting the whole picture. Any thoughts
on what stats might show a better correlation?

Another datapoint was an informal one-year follow-up to the first wave of
Thiel's 20 under 20 (<http://qr.ae/14o5S>). Of the select few that were chosen
based on their skills/ideas/potential and given access to Thiel's network,
quite a few ended up actually going back to school.

~~~
webwright
I'd love to see socioeconomic status pulled out of the equation.

i.e. Take 1000 offspring of middle/upper class folks. Measure the difference
between those who chose to go to college and those who did not.

Measuring the economic success of people who don't go to college is (most of
the time) measuring the success of people who can't afford to go to college.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Ok, so lets say you did that. Do you have a hypothesis about what might be
different?

College is actually reasonably affordable, there are accredited four year
university degrees that cost about $25K over four years. Generally those are
'state' schools but still $25K it what it costs to buy a car, so if one can
choose between buying a car and going to school we could do some interesting
comparisons there.

In every survey I've ever seen, whether it was done by the Census bureau or
the chamber of commerce, people with college degrees were more likely to have
better economic success than someone who had not completed college. The
numbers are quite skewed toward college graduates with STEM [1] degrees.

By and large, today, for the general case, if you want to increase your
chances for economic success, getting a STEM degree from an accredited college
is your most highly leveraged investment.

[1] STEM - Science Technology Engineering Mathematics

~~~
webwright
Coming at this 7 days late, but...

The median household income in the US is $49k, I believe. 40% of households
spend more than they bring in and have considerable consumer debt. Of course,
50% of households make LESS than $49k income and 2+ kids.

Here's a list of state schools with instate and out of state tuition:
<http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/colleges/>

This is their "best values" list. Nowhere is a $25k over 4 year school that I
can see.

You'll need to account for living expense, textbooks, etc., for those 4 years
as well (or maybe you're assuming that our hypothetical student can find a
supporting job while going to school-- note that youth unemployment is approx.
2X the national average, and that the cheaper schools here are in states with
generally higher unemployment).

Saying that college is reasonably affordable for most americans is just crazy.

All that aside, my hypothesis is that college impacts success (STEM-degrees
having a higher impact), but that socioeconomic starting point has more of an
impact. When you have three things that are highly correlated (success,
starting point, and education) it's really hard to argue for causation with
controlling for the third variable. When I look at all of my high-school peers
who didn't finish college, they're all employed and making great money (I went
to a mediocre private school in Maryland), but half of contemporary college
grads (presumably most near the median background) can't find jobs
([http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57434159/half-of-
colle...](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57434159/half-of-college-
grads-cant-find-full-time-jobs/) ).

------
keiferski
I have absolutely no evidence to back this up, but: I feel as if the
"shallowness" of recent SV-culture startups can partly be attributed to the
glorification of what I'll call "dropout culture," that being a subtle anti-
intellectualism and an acceptance of the idea that only technical knowledge is
valuable.

University forces you to be exposed to a lot of different fields (that you
would never see otherwise).

~~~
tedkalaw
One of the top three classes I took at my university (next to "Algorithms" and
"Data Structures") was "Introduction to Drawing." It's changed the way I look
at aesthetic beauty. I would have had a hard time motivating myself to have
that experience otherwise.

~~~
cyang08
I couldn't agree more. Steve Jobs is an interesting example in this case -
although he dropped out, he credited a random calligraphy class as the
inspiration for some of the Mac's beautiful typography:

"Because I had dropped out and didn’t have to take the normal classes, I
decided to take a calligraphy class to learn how to do this. I learned about
serif and sans-serif typefaces, about varying the amount of space between
different letter combinations, about what makes great typography great. It was
beautiful, historical, artistically subtle in a way that science can’t
capture, and I found it fascinating.

"None of this had even a hope of any practical application in my life. But 10
years later, when we were designing the first Macintosh computer, it all came
back to me. And we designed it all into the Mac. It was the first computer
with beautiful typography."

[http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/06/steve-jobs-
designer...](http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/06/steve-jobs-designer-
first-c-e-o-second/)

~~~
enraged_camel
My sister is currently in college. The other day she was complaining about
having to take classes outside her major to graduate. I made her watch the
video of that speech and her opinion changed completely.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc>

------
prostoalex
Steve Jobs is definitely an outlier on this, but worth pointing out that Bill
Gates and Mark Zuckerberg didn't drop out of "a college", they dropped out of
Harvard, an institution with some of the toughest entrance requirements.

I'm far from being a fanboy (and went to a no-name state school), but
admittance to Harvard is a high signal of intellect and self-discipline.
Paired with lax return policy (you can extend a personal leave pretty much
indefinitely) it makes sense when highly disciplined and hyper-productive
young students decide to pursue a project they consider a chance of a
lifetime.

Moreover, both billg and zuck used their Harvard connections to their
advantage, by bringing in Steve Ballmer and Dustin Moskovitz respectively.
Dropping out of Podunk State College and HVAC Repair Clinic just doesn't bring
those advantages.

~~~
felipe
It's also important to note that Bill Gates' high-school was private and very
rigorous. In fact, it was one of the first high-schools in the US to make
computers available to its students.

Excellent point about connections... Also note that Paul Allen was BG's high-
school friend.

~~~
prostoalex
Same for Mark Zuckerberg's school
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_Exeter_Academy>

------
yesimahuman
I personally think the biggest reason to go to college is that it's just plain
fun. A rare chance in your life to have very few responsibilities and explore
being yourself.

Unfortunately, add mounting costs, difficulties of finding jobs, and debt, and
I'm not sure college is the perfect answer for long term success.

I wonder if many hot startups would rather hire someone that dropped out to do
their own thing vs. someone who finished their degree? There is no replacement
for real-world experience.

~~~
mikevm
>I personally think the biggest reason to go to college is that it's just
plain fun. A rare chance in your life to have very few responsibilities and
explore being yourself.

Doing a CS major (or probably any other science) barely leaves you with any
free time, and let's face it, it's not exactly the pinnacle of fun.

~~~
prawks
As a CS major, I agree with your first statement, but wholly disagree with the
latter. I thoroughly enjoyed my studies, even though they were rigorous. I
majored in CS because I enjoyed it. It was plenty worth it at graduation when
I could look back and say I actually accomplished something as well.

~~~
mikevm
I'm currently in my 2nd year, and from what I gather most of the people aren't
enjoying it so far. The first year was mostly pure math (Mathematical Analysis
I & II, Linear Algebra I & II, Discrete Math, Intro to Probability) + a few
comp sci courses (Scheme, Java and a very abstract Data Structures course).

I came to computer science from a software engineering perspective and less
from a theoretical one, so that is probably why I'm not having a ball ;-)
Hopefully in the 3rd year, once I get to pick electives I will enjoy it much
more.

------
gjulianm
About the numerical argument, that's not a good argument. The fact that 92,5%
of the people on the Forbes 30 Under 30 for Tech list did not drop out is
meaningless by itself. Why?

Imagine that 92,5% of all population had degrees. Or even better: that 99% of
all population had degrees.

It'd be more meaningful if you added the percentage of the population with
degrees, the % of people without degrees who created failed startups...

But, anyways, I don't think that having/not having a degree is a fundamental
factor in the success of your startup. Maybe you're already good enough to go
forward. Maybe your idea is so great it compensates your lack of technical
knowledge. Frankly, I think that dropping college to do a startup is neither a
good or bad idea. It depends on you, your circumstances and the startup
itself.

------
cyang08
Hi all. What sparked this post was the release of this year's Forbes 30 Under
30 for Tech. Turns out almost everyone on the list (92.5%, check article for
more stats) did NOT drop out, so thought the numbers + anecdotal + personal
experience would make a good case for sticking to school.

~~~
pitt1980
want to guesstimate how many people on the Forbes 30 for 30 list had private
college paid for by their upper middle class (if not better parents)?

I think it makes sense to think seriously about the restrictions taking on
education debt will place on your life in the future, and to think seriously
about if that's the best use for the resources it takes to go to college

different viewpoint on ROI calculations:

The average tuition cost is approximately $16,000 per year. Plus assume
another $10,000 in living costs, books, etc. $26,000 in total for a complete
cost of $104,000 in a 4 year period. Some people choose to go more expensive
by going to a private college and some people choose to go a little cheaper by
going public but this is an average. Also, a huge assumption is that its just
for a 4 year period. According to the Department of Education, only 54% of
undergraduates graduate within 6 years. So for the 46% that don’t graduate, or
take 10 years to graduate, this is a horrible investment. But lets assume your
children are in the brilliant first half who finish within six years (and
hopefully within four). Is it worth it? First, let’s look at it completely
from a monetary perspective. Over the course of a lifetime, according to
CollegeBoard, a college graduate can be expected to earn $800,000 more than
his counterpart that didn’t go to college. $800,000 is a big spread and it
could potentially separate the haves from the have-nots. But who has and who
doesn’t? If I took that $104,000 and I chose to invest it in a savings account
that had interest income of 5% per year I’d end up with an extra $1.4 million
dollars over a 50 year period. A full $600,000 more. That $600,000 is a lot of
extra money an 18 year old could look forward to in her retirement. I also
think the $800,000 quoted above is too high. Right now most motivated kids who
have the interest and resources to go to college think it’s the only way to go
if they want a good job. If those same kids decided to not go to college my
guess is they would quickly close the gap on that $800,000 spread. There are
other factors as well. I won’t be spending $104,000 per child when my
children, ages 10 and 7, decide to go to college. College costs have
historically gone up much faster than inflation. Since 1978, cost of living
has gone up three-fold. Medical costs, much to the horror of everyone in
Congress, has gone up six-fold. And college education has gone up a whopping
tenfold. This is beyond the housing bubble, the stock market bubble, any
bubble you can think of. So how can people afford college? Well, how has the
US consumer afforded anything? They borrow it, of course. The average student
now graduates with a $23,000 debt burden. Up from $13,000 12 years ago. Last
year, student borrowings totaled $75 billion, up 25% from the year before. If
students go on to graduate degrees such as law degrees they can see their debt
burden soar to $200,000 or more. And the easy borrowing convinces colleges
that they can raise prices even more.
<http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2010/02/dont-send-your-kids-to-...>.
<http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2011/01/10-more-reasons-why-par...>.
<http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2011/01/8-alternatives-to-colle...>.

~~~
varjag
> want to guesstimate how many people on the Forbes 30 for 30 list had private
> college paid for by their upper middle class (if not better parents)?

But the origin of the college funds is irrelevant to the authors point. And
say in Gates case, he wasn't really born on a farm either, would that mean
that dropping out is only an option for wealthy kids, or..?

~~~
pitt1980
as best I can tell, the orginal point is, go to college, its great, you'll
learn alot of stuff, and you'll get marketable credentials

which is all obviously true, and not neccesarily determinate to the decision
as to whether or not to drop out of college

those same points could be made about alot of activities you could engage in
between the ages of 18-22

cost and roi are relevent to how you spend that time

------
glock_coma
As someone who dropped out of college to start a company and successfully
exited, I wanted to give my personal perspective on this.

Dropping out of college made me more successful than I would have been in the
short/medium term, but closed a lot of doors for in the long term which I
spend a lot of time often thinking about. Although it's quite possible I could
go back to college and finish my degree, the opportunity costs for me now are
a lot higher; I will most likely never go to grad school. I was quite
fortunate to create a business with a great idea and an easy execution;
however, looking back, I could of easily chosen something that wouldn't of
worked. It's only with my greater maturity now that I can see how lucky I was.

On the flip side of the token, if I hadn't dropped out of college, I probably
would be slaving away in a consulting/investment banking role and never would
of gone down the startup route. I would not be as happy/wealthy as I am today
and I probably wouldn't be as mature as I am now. I understand my
limitations/vulnerabilities and strengths better as a result today.

Although I'm happy with my decision, I have been having a sort of a midlife
crisis at this point.

All through life, there's always something ahead. In middle school, you have
high school. In high school you have college; and theoretically in college,
you have some kind of first job. After your first job, you get
promoted/transfer to higher paying jobs etc….

For someone who drops out of college, the path can be a bit ambiguous. I've
sold my first company and I'll most likely start another company soon, but
what happens after that? Do i continue starting/selling companies for the rest
of my life? Do I end up just becoming an angel investor/partner at a vc firm?
Or do i just retire now and do all the fun/creative projects that I wanted to
do as a kid? I guess I'm still searching…

I'm still searching because the toughest problem of my life wasn't to drop out
or stay; that decision was easy. The toughest problem of my life is something
I've been delaying solving and which I should of tried to solve sooner and
which I may never solve.

The toughest problem of my life will be to learn and choose what makes me
happy.

~~~
2pasc
You have the toughest problem in life - which is choice. You have an advantage
- you have time (in money). Surround yourself with a diverse group of people
from different age groups (people in their twentys, in their thirtys, in their
fourtys) and use them as mentors and peers. it will be extremely useful. If
you live in Silicon Valley, it should be pretty easy to find a diverse group
of good people.

------
Sakes
The advice someone should consider when trying to determine if they should go
to college or start a company is this.... take advantage of opportunities!

Do you have an idea? Have you validated this idea in some form? Do you have
access to funds? Do you have the skills necessary to execute the idea? If not,
do you have access to people who can make up for your shortcomings? In other
words, do you actually have an alternative opportunity to college.

Life is long for most of us, be optimistic and bet on it being long for you
too. Don't be in a rush. While the college degree itself does not hold the
value that it once did, the experience of college for those who truly take
advantage of it will find it to be an amazing period of self growth. College
has true value for some, even if society does not know how validate its value
on an individual basis.

I went to college, I dropped out senior year, 8 years later I am working on my
startup full time. My conditional blanket advice would be this, if you don't
have a clear opportunity then go to school. It is that simple. If you spend
half the time your friends' spend partying on your idea, you will have more
than enough time to vet your dream as a true opportunity. After which you can
justifiably quit college and start your company. Just because you start your
undergrad does not mean you have to finish it.

Like I mentioned, I don't have my degree because I personally don't value a
degree. But I highly value my college experience.

------
xentronium
Isn't it sad, that there is still no giant database filled with numbers to
solve all arguments?

One column would be university. Another column would be course. Third column
would be price. Fourth column would be field of working. Fifth column would be
median salary (monthly earnings for entrepreneurs). Ideally that would be
lifetime earnings instead, but it's really hard to do.

There probably should be a column for employment ratio or one extra entry per
(university, course).

Then we can easily query such database to measure impact university has on
financial success. And stop muttering. There still would be people who don't
act rational, but at least we can mark it as such — _irrational_ , instead of
_wrong_. What I'm afraid of is that people will still act irrationally while
thinking they are acting rationally (e.g. "of course they never succeeded,
they were not as talented as me!")

I think someone would even pay to have access to such database, so there is
probably a business opportunity here. Although, even more probably most
university will disagree to disclose/outright falsify income numbers, because
they are not interested to tell the truth.

~~~
cyang08
YES! This was exactly what I was looking for while writing the post. A decent
portion of this information is even available publicly for certain demographic
slices (like the education for the 30 Under 30s).

Startup idea? One that you could drop out of school for? _wink_ _wink_

------
jasonmw
It's always presented as one or the other: Either do a startup or stay in
college. Why not both?

I've managed to continue my undergrad education while co-founding an angel
back startup. Although I didn't intentionally plan it, doing both at the same
time as really helped me learn. What you learn in school can instantly be
translated back to your startup, instead of waiting several years after school
when you have forgotten much of it. It goes the other way too, lessons I've
learned in my startup help me focus on what matters in school and "project
manage" my course-load and homework.

It's not for everyone, and I am not saying that you have to start a company
while in school. But at the very least, consider joining a startup while in
school. Most startups are very flexible to where you work and what hours you
work. It's usually a great fit while in school.

~~~
BobWarfield
Amen!

If we can bootstrap on 10 hours a week with a day job we can do same from
college.

------
tedkalaw
I planned on dropping out and found myself back at school - we had on path to
profitability and California costs a lot more than Illinois. When my parents
started getting collection letters from my university and we were running out
of money (strange how $20,000 doesn't get you that far), I knew it was time to
go back. Of course, my family couldn't afford to send me to school without
loans, so ymmv.

I found that the time I spent in the trenches actually made me appreciate
school MORE. When I got back, my desire to learn was back. I don't think I
would have appreciated school as much if I hadn't just gotten out there.

I've decided to count my time in the valley as "studying abroad" ;)

------
northisup
Don't let somebody else tell you that your square peg needs to fit in that
round hole over there.

I have a B.S. and a M.S. in computer science and I am 100% confident that it
was the right choice /for me/. I also work at DISQUS with some of the smartest
best systems engineers I have ever known, none of them took computer science,
only some graduated college, and some never even finished high school.
Education is a very personal thing and America's system works for most people,
but when it feels wrong go find something else that feels right.

~~~
jmcdonald-ut
I couldn't agree more. As a current student, dropping out doesn't appeal to
me. I enjoy the structure presented by my classes and the college social life
outside of classes. This has been the right choice for me, but for others it
most certainly would not be.

Do what you feel is right. When it comes to a big choice like this I feel like
subconsciously you just know what is right for you.

------
kyle_t
Solid advice. If it doesn't work out and you quit your job to pursue the
startup you might have a smaller bank account but you will have another solid
item for your resume and it shouldn't be too hard to find a new job. If on the
other hand it doesn't work out and you dropped out of college, you are in a
much worse spot. Failed startup wont do much for getting back into school and
now you still have to fund the schooling. You could get a job but it wont pay
much without a college degree.

~~~
__abc
This doesn't necessarily hold true for technology.

In fact, the longer in the field the the more dated the education becomes. Our
field is changing and knowledge is turning over so fast that a ten year old
degree is borderline irrelevant vs someone who has experience in "today's
technologies, methodologies, etc".

There are fundamentals which hold true from college, but a large majority of
the technologies, techniques, etc are no longer relevant.

~~~
amputect
This would be true if you got a degree in FORTRAN or Java 1.5 (and if you did,
then that's a bummer!) instead of Computer Science. The vast majority of
things I learned with a computer science degree are language-agnostic, and the
only reason we used any language at all was because pseudocode is hard to
compile.

~~~
cyang08
Agreed. For me, it was a big shift at first transitioning from a more
vocational mindset (learning the language/framework of the day) to the
theoretical (design patterns, paradigms, architecture).

As an aside, just got through Martin Fowler's musing on architecture
(<http://martinfowler.com/eaaCatalog/>). Highly recommended!

------
ollidorn
As a med student, never in my life have I had the slightest provocation to
consider dropping out of school to pursue a startup. I know that I am
extremely unfamiliar with the complexity of the choices involved, but having
read this piece I'd be shocked if any prospective entrepreneurs were not
strongly persuaded to take this man's advice. This is wisdom without the
ostentatiousness of a NYT opinion.

~~~
michaelfdeberry
There are different risk dynamics between someone that is studying medicine
and someone studying computer science. The major one being that if you drop
out while studying CS you could still likely get a job as developer if you are
able to prove you are capable.

------
neilk
"college also teaches the life skills needed to succeed"

Whoa. Is this subtle irony? I can't believe anyone who isn't actually a
college admissions person wrote this.

College can teach you some practical techniques, it can be broadening, and it
can be a place to build relationships. But life skills? If that's what you
want, you really would be better off dropping out.

~~~
cdcarter
College gives you the opportunity to live in an apartment with real people and
real bills while still under the protective umbrella of being a student. In
the US, going to college means you have health care (you are paying for it,
but you don't have a choice), you have access to fairly inexpensive food, and
a lot of advisors who can help you and WANT to help you while you fuck up.
That really does help in the transition from living with parents or in a dorm
to having a place of your own.

------
michaelochurch
I was a math major in college. I also spent 25+ hours per week on creative
writing, although I took few classes in it and was mediocre in all the English
courses I took. I'm very glad I got the mathematical background, and the
creative writing experience (mostly frustration) made me a better software
architect. It's harder to get that sort of out-of-band stuff once you're out
of school.

Using Coursera and various textbooks to take some of the CS courses I missed
in school, and doing this as an "adult student" (29) I've had a couple of
insights...

* Autodidacticism (reading the texts and papers without a structured online course) is hard. How do you know if you're learning the right stuff, or how deep to go? Which exercises in your ML textbook do you do? (You won't have time to do all of them, unless you want to spend 2 years.) It is worth doing, but it's not easy. There's a reason why autodidacticism is rare and impressive.

* College wasn't _that_ hard. It's a combination of (a) trying to do a zillion things at once, (b) having mediocre study skills on account of having not needed them before, (c) all the hormonal volatility, and (d) damaged long-term-planning facilities until age 25, that make it hard. After a few years of cubicle hell, college coursework is relatively easy for most people, _if_ you have discipline (which very few 18-year-olds do; cube hell will help you get it). Of course, most people don't have time for more than 1-2 courses once they start working.

The problem with the "dropping out is awesome" mentality is that it's unclear
what people are to be dropping into. I had that fantasy of dropping out to
become a novelist-- who doesn't?-- but enough realism to know it wasn't a
credible plan.

I think that most people (Zuck and Gates excluded) who drop out for a startup
are actually running from something, and the thing they're running from isn't
college, but the fact that 18-24 is a difficult age, especially in the
neurotic U.S.

~~~
cyang08
Great insight about autodidacticism - sometimes it's just really hard to (1)
even know what to do in the first place and (2) do it without structure or
extrinsic motivation.

I think in an ideal world, self-study and maintaining an ongoing education
while out in the field are great. Unfortunately in a practical world, finding
that motivation intrinsically is pretty difficult. There's actually a great
video by Dan Pink delving into the specific components of motivation:
<http://reelsurfer.com/watch/share/22832>

(credit a forum post on improving at StarCraft for this actually, haha:
[http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374...](http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374400))

------
kloncks
Don't drop out just to drop out. There's no statement to be made.

Sometimes dropping out makes sense; other times it doesn't. It's based on that
unique situation. Dropping out isn't a matter you can over generalize with
blanket statement advice.

------
samsolomon
I don't see the harm in dropping out.

If your startup is gaining traction, take a semester off and try and make it
work. You can always go back to school if the business doesn't work out.

------
carbocation
Until you find a substantial group of talented students whom you randomize to
college vs non-college, the question of whether or not to complete college
will remain open.

------
smiddereens
I wish I'd done a startup before going to college. I would've had a better
sense of what to focus on.

------
kayoone
if you drop out to start a startup just be sure its really what you want as
you will most probably fail!

