
Why It’s Easy for a Bounty Hunter to Find People - pseudolus
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/02/opinion/fcc-wireless-regulation.html
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wedn3sday
I think the comments in this thread are somewhat missing the point. Its not so
much an issue that bounty hunters can track you anywhere, its that anyone with
a little money can access the same databases. Given the actions of the
US/foreign intelligence agencies over the last couple decades, it would be
foolish to think that they wouldnt be keeping their own copy of all this data.
Even if you're OK with your own government having access to your current
location at all times, would you also be OK with the Saudies or the Russian
FSB knowing this? I think we're all past the point where the idea of
individually targeted misinformation campaigns are out of the realm of scifi
and are very much a real thing. Location data alone is enough to create an
extremely accurate demographic/psychological profile for a person.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> Even if you're OK with your own government having access to your current
> location at all times, would you also be OK with the Saudies or the Russian
> FSB knowing this?

I see this sentiment a lot, and I've never understood the thought process that
leads to it. Your own government is the _worst possible party_ to have
information on you, because they have a lot of power to do things to you. They
are also much more likely to care about your activities or other things that
concern you.

By contrast, the Saudis are way the hell over in Saudi Arabia, have very
little power over Americans in America, and don't care what Americans in
America do. In the immortal words of Achilles:

> I came not warring here for any ill the Trojans had done me. I have no
> quarrel with them. They have not raided my cattle nor my horses, nor cut
> down my harvests on the rich plains of Phthia; for between me and them there
> is a great space, both mountain and sounding sea.

You can change whether the Saudis care about what you're doing, if you try
hard. But you can't bring them up to the level where they care more or have
more power than your native government already does.

~~~
wedn3sday
> By contrast, the Saudis are way the hell over in Saudi Arabia, have very
> little power over Americans in America, and don't care what Americans in
> America do.

I dont believe this is true, the Saudi's very much care about Americans in
America. See their extensive lobbying efforts to effect American policy, and
the possible hacking of Jeff Bezos (no way to know if this is real or not). I
also think its somewhat of a red harring to say, "since country X doesnt care
about us, we're safe from all countries." The difference between a foreign
country and my own government is that in some respect I have the ability to
change my own countries policy, I can vote people out of office and email my
senators (who are supposed to have my well being in mind when making laws),
however I have no control whatsoever over a foreign governments decision
making and they probably dont care about my well being.

~~~
dclowd9901
Sorry, but it just doesn't gel. You are not important. Jeff Bezos might be
important, but I really couldn't give two shits if the Saudis know where Jeff
Bezos is at all times. They're not going to expend real or political capital
to worry about Joe Whomever.

Certainly, if you're Jeff Bezos, you may have something to worry about from
foreign governments, but you are also only .000000000167~% of people. Forgive
me if I don't have the concern to expend on that proportion of people,
especially when they are rich enough to buy a country.

Contrarily, I am terrified that in the event I am somehow wrongly charged of a
crime, or rightly charged of a wrong crime in the United States, that my
entire history of movement will be used to exploit me. The FBI and CIA have
run many discrediting campaigns in their histories, to speak nothing of the
McCarthy era.

~~~
magduf
The main reason to worry about a foreign government knowing too much about you
is if they might use it against you. When they're far away, that's extremely
unlikely, however if you travel there, it suddenly becomes a real possibility.
Bad things have happened to Americans who visited Iran and North Korea, for
instance.

However, if you don't plan to visit countries like this, this isn't something
you should probably worry about. I have no plans to visit either of those
countries until they have completely different governments, so I really don't
care if they don't like me.

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foxyv
There is a really interesting podcast about this subject. It's called the
Privacy and Security Podcast. They talk about how you can get actual privacy
in the modern world. Hint, it's a PITA and is really not worth it for most
people.

[https://inteltechniques.com/podcast.html](https://inteltechniques.com/podcast.html)

~~~
scandinavegan
Thanks for the suggestion, I'm interested in checking it out!

For anyone else searching for it in your podcast app, it's actually called
"The Privacy, Security, & OSINT Show".

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ams6110
Not that I condone the wireless companies selling this kind of data, but if
you're in a situation where a bounty hunter is after you, step one is don't
carry a mobile phone.

~~~
moate
Replace "bounty hunter" with "random jerk who is aware of these channels and
how to use them," as the person who's after you. That group is small, but non-
zero.

The issue is that these tools 1- exist 2- aren't kept under the tightest lock
and key possible. Because any schmuck can get access to them for the right
price, nobody should have a cell phone if we put the onus on the victims.

~~~
craftyguy
> Replace "bounty hunter" with "random jerk who is aware of these channels and
> how to use them," as the person who's after you. That group is small, but
> non-zero.

Or an abusive partner..

~~~
anitil
That is terrifying

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OJFord
Article is quite US-centric (not a criticism, it is after all the NY Times) -
can anyone comment on similarities or not around the world?

~~~
distant_hat
Speaking for India, this kind of data is even more easily available. The
general concept of privacy is nonexistent. You can get massive amounts of data
for nothing at all and just some targeted Google searches. For example,
searching "PAN card filetype:xlsx" will get you files from financial companies
having addresses, taxpayer ID, phone numbers and more.

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trixie_
Is there a source? Where can I pay a few hundred dollars to get someones
exactly location?

~~~
wedn3sday
You have to sign up for one of the several data subscription services that
provide this. There are special ones for private investigators or bounty
hunters which have contracts with the telco companies. Once you subscribe to
the service its a fee per lookup, but getting the subscription is somewhat
involved.

~~~
trixie_
I guess you could probably sign up online somewhere. Any idea where that is?

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JeffL
Would a person have any legal standing to sue their cell phone company for
violating their right to privacy, assuming that the Bill of Rights could trump
whatever license agreement we all agree to without reading?

~~~
fixermark
It feels like that'd really boil down to whether identifying a fugitive's
location based on signal from the location-broadcaster they're carrying
voluntarily on their person, connected to a distributed service network shared
by customers of a private company, could be considered "unreasonable search
and seizure."

To a first approximation, my guess would be "probably not." No more so than,
say, a train station dropping a dime on you if you try and buy a ticket on a
train and your name comes up as wanted.

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andrewtbham
Does anyone know how to actually get this data yourself? Where do you buy it?

asking for a friend :-)

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kevinventullo
This guy works for the FCC. Seems like he's risking his career by writing
this.

~~~
tzs
He's an FCC Commissioner, whose term lasts until June 30th, 2022, and can only
be removed before then via impeachment, and making public statements on policy
matters is perfectly normal for FCC Commissioner, even if those statements
disagree with the policy positions of whatever party controls the FCC.

Indeed, the structure of the Commission is designed for that. Although
Commissioners are appointed by the President and approved by the Senate, by
law no more than 3 of the 5 can be from the same party. Traditionally for the
two Commissioners not of his party the President nominates whoever the Senate
leader of the other party recommends, and traditionally if that party is the
minority party in the Senate the senators from the majority party pretty much
rubber stamp it, so in practice the party that controls the White House gets a
pretty free choice for three of the seats, and the other party gets a pretty
free choice for the other two seats.

~~~
kevinventullo
Thank you for the edification!

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sg0
May be off topic, but is this the reason why BoFA does not need us to issue a
travel advisory? Because they are getting our location data and can flag
fraud?

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swarnie_
Surely the first thing you do while trying to hide is ditch the GPS enable
microphone and camera you carry everywhere?

~~~
soneil
That does seem to rather miss the point.

What if you substitute "bounty hunter" for "the private investigator your ex-
wife hired". "The stalker who's willing to put a couple of hundred dollars
into an internet grudge", etc. At some point you have to realistic that
perfectly innocent people can care about their privacy too.

~~~
swerner
And those are still the harmless examples. Look at it from the female
perspective: Got a violent ex-husband? A stalker? Are you a teenager who’s
walking home alone after school? You have done nothing wrong, but you have a
lot to hide.

~~~
hdfbdtbcdg
Sex/gender doesn't really come into it.

A male with a violent ex wife should be just as afraid.

Or indeed anyone of any gender with a violent ex of any gender.

