
Isdal Woman: A mystery death haunting Norway for 46 years - happy-go-lucky
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39369429
======
ggambetta
Wearing my fiction writer hat - I found this fragment fascinating:

 _DNA analysis is now one of the key tools police use in forensic analysis and
identification cases._

 _It didn 't exist back in 1970._

 _But it turns out several tissue samples from the woman 's organs, including
from her lungs, heart, adrenal gland and ovaries, have been stored at
Haukeland University Hospital._

Makes me wonder what kind of "perfect crime" may be committed today, where the
criminal literally achieved technical perfection, only to be caught 40 years
later by a forensic technique that doesn't even exist today.

~~~
jamesbowman
This happened to Lance Armstrong. As one investigator put it, his 1999 urine
was meant to pass the drugs tests available in 1999. But when subjected to
tests developed 5 years later, it failed.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong#Tour_de_France...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong#Tour_de_France_urine_tests:_2005)

~~~
nawitus
This is quite common these days, e.g. many atheletes lost their 2008 Olympic
medals due to retesting in late 2016.

------
owenversteeg
The multiple passports are fascinating, and that's probably the best thing
that limits the search space.

The number of white, brown-eyed, 164cm tall women between 25 and 40 with many
fake passports is very small: almost certainly with a state-sponsored
intelligence service. Add in the gold crowns, and you've got a pretty good
profile of this woman.

You can rule out small countries and countries with bad intelligence services
at the time. With her European ancestry you can probably rule out her working
for African, South American, or Asian governments. That leaves European and
North American governments.

The list then is pretty narrow: America, Canada, USSR/East Germany, West
Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain. Canada, Spain, Italy, and France almost
certainly wouldn't be spying in Norway.

Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, and Denmark are all unlikely, as she seemed
"foreign" to the Nordic region. Belgium and the Netherlands don't have much of
an intelligence service to speak of, especially during the time, and almost
definitely wouldn't be spying in Norway.

That gives the final list of America, USSR/East Germany, West Germany, and the
UK.

"English with an accent" (probably) rules out the UK and America. So that
leaves us with the USSR/East Germany or West Germany.

Anyone on HN want to solve a murder? My email's in my profile :) I feel like
that'd be a really interesting group, even if none of us could put much time
into it.

~~~
Theodores
I don't think Israel can be ruled out due to 'European ancestry'. Israel did
not exist until WW2 and in those post war years anyone in Europe with Jewish
ancestry could migrate to Israel and get citizenship, complete with a
passport. The 'English with an accent' would fit with Israel too.

Around twenty years ago I did have some friends where all kinds of unusual
contraband items were exchanged, up to and including passports. I was not in
the market for buying one myself, however, this just seemed to be standard
capitalism as applied to the black market - you could get a good fake passport
or pay more and get an even better fake passport, i.e. from a decent country.
I doubt that the lady was an international cocaine dealer on the run and in
need of lots of passports to get across Europe but stranger things have
happened and you cannot just assume the lady was a spy.

I have not studied the story any more than the article, however, the travel
pattern is that of someone on the run. If you are up against a police (or
intel. service) that has proper resources to track you then you are obligated
to move every day. This is the most expensive lifestyle to have, not a
sustainable existence. In this existence you need to be totally unpredictable,
so where you stay may not have much significance other than a need to hide. In
this mode of existence you also run out of friends quite quickly so staying in
hotels becomes how it is done until the money runs out or you get caught.

------
DonaldFisk
NRK (the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation) have a web site about this case:
[https://www.nrk.no/dokumentar/gaten-i-
isdalen-1.13182053](https://www.nrk.no/dokumentar/gaten-i-isdalen-1.13182053)
(English version: [https://www.nrk.no/dokumentar/xl/the-isdalen-
mystery-1.13249...](https://www.nrk.no/dokumentar/xl/the-isdalen-
mystery-1.13249066)).

There are a few other mysterious cases of unidentified people, the most famous
of which is the Somerton Man
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamam_Shud_case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamam_Shud_case))
(warning: contains mortuary photograph).

There's also Peter Bergmann
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Bergmann_Case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Bergmann_Case))
(warning: contains mortuary photograph) and Lyle Stevik
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyle_Stevik](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyle_Stevik)).

Two recent British cases have been solved, Emmanuel Caillet
([https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2002/jan/05/weekend7...](https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2002/jan/05/weekend7.weekend1))
and David Lytton
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lytton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lytton)).

------
Mtinie
Here's a related HN discussion from earlier this year about a story published
on nrk.no:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13309624](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13309624)

~~~
atomical
[https://www.nrk.no/dokumentar/gaten-i-
isdalen-1.13182053](https://www.nrk.no/dokumentar/gaten-i-isdalen-1.13182053)

------
oliyoung
Adelaide, Australia has a similar story “Somerton Man”

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamam_Shud_case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamam_Shud_case)

------
vocatus_gate
I remember reading about this a few years ago when I somehow ended up on the
Wikipedia "List of famous unsolved murders" or something like that, and went
down the rabbit hole. It's an eerie, creepy story, one of the few that left me
feeling genuinely creeped out.

~~~
Boothroid
This is a weird one:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_Masks_Case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_Masks_Case)

~~~
Mediterraneo10
The explanation on that Wikipedia article sounds convincing for me. Brazil has
a lot of spiritualism cults and movements that few foreigners hear about and
which can seem pretty weird.

------
arghimonmobile2
The thing that strikes me is that she used American date notation on the
"coded" note -- AFAIK no Europeans put the month first. Probably a red herring
though ;)

~~~
malydok
That's not the case here. The only way America differs from Europe in writing
the date is when you include the year. She didn't do that on the note, so
whether it's "October 22" or "22nd of October" carries little meaning. I'd go
for the shorter O22 myself as well.

------
INTPenis
Disappointing end of the article, real cliffhanger. I wonder if there will be
a part 2.

------
discardorama
SO many fake passports... I bet she was an East German spy. People in such a
line of work usually don't have labels in clothes, because the labels might
not match the rest of the story.

~~~
dvtv75
To be fair, I don't have labels in my clothes because they irritate me so
much. Oddly, it never used to be a problem but it has become one in the last
five or six years.

(I don't have any fake passports, though, and my medications do have their
printed labels.)

------
roman_savchuk
I thought gold teeth were so Soviet/Eastern European thing at the time, that
it should be an immediate giveaway of woman's origin.

~~~
ginko
From the image, these are gold crowns with porcelain fronts, safe for the ones
in the back. In countries were gold teeth are/were a status symbol, these
would be made to be blatantly visible, so no porcelain fronts.

~~~
reducesuffering
But if she was a spy, she would have a reason to not blatantly show the gold
crowns.

------
jlg23
Can anyone tell me what "ACI"[1] stood for back then? I wonder why Lafayette
had/has an "ACI Liaison Officer".

[1]
[https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/B443/production/...](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/B443/production/_95974164_dsc_0607-copy.jpg)

------
qubex
Aside: I find the pervasive use of the present tense throughout the article to
be bewildering and quite inexplicably sinister.

~~~
to3m
I don't know about sinister, but I'll go with bewildering. I also find it
rather distracting.

(I've seen narrators of history programmes on TV do this sometimes. It's
annoying then too.)

------
louithethrid
I read recently that by some DNA Samples you can trace your origin back to
certain local groups- shouldnt that be possible with the sample taken here.
How accurate would this be?

Example: [https://www.ancestry.com/dna/](https://www.ancestry.com/dna/)

------
Boothroid
A question that occurred to me a few years ago: how many murderers get away
with it, and are out there walking the streets like normal people? And bearing
this in mind, how many murderers have I walked past on the street, blissfully
unaware of their heinous crime(s)?! Creepy!

downvote?! wtf?!

~~~
moomin
Never mind murder. Murder's pretty uncommon. On the other hand, 1 in 5
American women report having been the victim of either rape or an attempted
rape. Even more report some incident of domestic violence so I can assure you
that you walk past some pretty awful people every day. You probably work with
some of them too.

~~~
valuearb
Yea, that's not true.

You are conflating a university study with all women. And the 1 in 5 number
comes from a study with a strong self selection bias, and also conflates
drunken sex and unwanted kissing with rape. Better studies produced a 1 in 40
estimate.

~~~
moomin
Yea, my information's from the CDC (with a précis by the NYT)

[https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/index.html](https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/index.html)

[https://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/health/nearly-1-in-5-w...](https://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/health/nearly-1-in-5-women-
in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html)

But by all means produce your better studies than a comprehensive one by the
CDC.

The figures are accurate, but there's a lot of people with an emotional
investment in not believing the numbers. This phenomenon is a symptom of
patriarchy, btw. Ask your feminist friends about it, you'll be amazed.

~~~
valuearb
Again you used the word "rape" which isn't what the CDC measured.

It was a telephone survey dependent upon what the respondent regards as rape.
Nearly half of what they counted as "rape" were categorized "drunk/drug
facilitated penetration". So they count anytime a man drugs a woman and has
sex with her against her consent (which is clearly rape), as well as if a
woman drinks too much, has sex, regrets it and later answers a survey that it
was rape because that man should have known better.

Rape is a horrific crime. But trying to pump up the statistics by using vague
and overly broad definitions isn't right either.

~~~
moomin
OK, so your source is not believing victims. I'd rather stick to science,
thanks.

~~~
valuearb
What is science without rigorous definitions? Imagine you ask 100 women if
they were ever raped and 25 say yes. You ask each for details, and twenty
describe horrific encounters that were clearly rape. Five say they had drunk
sex against their better judgment with a persistent suitor who claimed he
loved them, and then he never called again and they felt violated.

What would be the scientific measure of rape in this survey, 20 or 25? Do you
let the victims decide what the definition of rape is, or does the scientist
have a reasonable definition of rape that they apply to the victim's
experience?

~~~
moomin
Except that isn't rape and only stupid men think women believe it is. However,
what definite _is_ rape is sex without consent due to alcoholic incapacitation
of the victim. This gives you victims who would have great difficulty proving
a damn thing in court. Victims who get their attack consistently
mischaracterised by men who prefer to believe a man's version of events over a
woman's.

Now, if you're asking me how many women have been raped in a fashion that is
likely to result in a conviction, I'll agree that the number is much smaller.
But let's not confuse a failure in society with a society where this stuff
doesn't happen.

You talk about a "scientist", only all these reports are stuck together by
actual scientists, and all you've managed to produce is some flimsy MRA
talking points.

TL;DR; Try believing women for once. It's surprisingly informative.

~~~
dvtv75
It's curious that you define rape as something that happens to a woman,
whereas "sex without consent due to alcoholic incapacitation of the victim"
can happen to a male, too. I've had male friends raped in that way, and the
only one who tried to report it to the police was disgusted by the officer's
response: "Score!" He outright refused to take a complaint from my friend.

Rape is also defined (by the Rape Crisis Centre in New Zealand) as sex where
one party has pressured the (unwilling) other into it, pressured the other
into sexual acts, used alcohol or drugs to generate compliance, or even simply
used force. Each and every one of those can be applied to a sexual encounter
between a male and a female, with a non-consenting male. Would you just
believe the women in those cases, too?

Something that's quite interesting to note, I've seen a citation of "The
Gender of Sexuality" by Rutter and Schwartz for a claim that lesbian women
reported rape by their partners in 1 out of 3 relationships, double the rate
claimed for heterosexual relationships. (I haven't read the book, and the
citation was quite some years ago.)

~~~
moomin
You make some good points and you're right, men can be victims and women can
be perpetrators. And yes, women can be liars. But liars to the extent that it
invalidates the CDC's preferred methods? I'd need to see some hard proof of
that.

------
pleboidal
Everything about this says dead spy caught by other spies. The interesting
part won't be her real identity, even though that would be a critical window
into the things that are actually interesting.

No theft, no sexual abuse, no emotional yarns, bloodless, no noise yelling or
fighting, drugged and burned, and obscured identity, effective for decades.
The murderers were professional state operators, so whoever did it, collects a
paycheck for killing people like this woman, above all ordinary law and order.
Some of the rival operators may have been women, staving off sexual
transgression, since that doesn't always remain professional on its own.

What was she trying to do? How did her cover blow? Whoever killed her, they
had clear understanding that she wasn't who she claimed to be, and no one knew
who she really was. Once they discovered mystery girl, if they weren't ordered
to take her out, all they had to do was phone home and ask if they were
supposed to have peers in the vicintity, if not, she's the enemy.

Based on this, you can assume by geography that she was a cold war spy,
attractive, with money heading into Eastern Europe, not westbound out of
Europe. If she were sourced from Eastern Europe, she wouldn't have been caught
and erased so quickly while still mainland. Closer into Eastern Europe, she'd
have had more protection. Operating alone like this, she may have been a
canary. Bait, doomed from the start, but unaware of her role in the operation
she proved as hazardous.

~~~
jamespo
Why all the pills in the stomach AND set her on fire?

~~~
pleboidal
Takes her out of the game. The pills don't produce a conclusive casualty in
under an hour. She might survive by incidentally vomiting, recover and fly
home. There might be others, undercover, tailing the kidnapping, and waiting
to rescue. Rescue might simply be incidental first responders. Since she
wasn't rescued we might assess there were more layers of interference in the
murder. Lookouts, participating as accomplices.

The burning kills quickly (minutes or less of smoke inhalation), and even if
ineffective in killing due to interruptions, certainly produces scars that
won't be easily hidden in the future and puts someone on the sidelines.

It also sends an unpleasant message to everyone who didn't bring her home, and
we still don't know who that is. Given that she wasn't even recovered, one
might presume her original identity was marked deceased in a contrived
accident, conincidentally, thousands of miles away. Maybe her family already
knows the real story, and remains quiet.

------
bingomad123
Good one but not as mysterious as Tamam Shud case.

