
Ask HN: Why aren't there many credible online bachelors programs? - non-entity
There are swaths of masters programs out there that can be completed online, and are backed by legitimate, well respected institutions.<p>bachelor degrees, on the other hand, seem to be pretty desolate. There are a handful of well known, decent schools that offer online bachelor degrees, but majority seem to require existing credit or offer non-sense sounding degrees in favor of normal ones (i.e. I&#x27;ve seen schools offer degrees in Professional Studies, Organization studies or Interdisciplinary Studies vs. Computer Science or Physics). Occasionally, you can find a legitimate looking CS degree from a legitimate school, but the programs still seem be below what you would get in-person.<p>I imagine there has to be a number of uneducated, working people who want to achieve more, or who&#x27;s career progression many be held back because they don&#x27;t have that credential, but the only schools advertising to them are the for profits, who charge exorbitant amounts for what seem like below average programs.
======
JediTrilobite
I used to work in the higher-education field for a respected private
university, and I think I know part of the answer to this: institutional
momentum.

This university launched an online MBA program early on, and built it out with
a bunch of other offerings as well. We were genuinely ahead of the curve on a
bunch of things, but we were also pretty separated from the rest of the
university, physically and culturally. We had our own building removed from
campus, and we did things a little differently. Not quite Silicon Valley
agile, but comparatively. Meanwhile, the rest of the campus was adamantly
against online learning, for years.

I think a big part of this is that we had an older faculty and institutional
culture that was pretty set in its ways: they didn't see or recognize the
value that the internet afforded their classrooms, and weren't set up to
implement them. That's begun to change a bit as we got younger faculty, but
there's still a tendency towards in-person learning, because of the tradition
and training behind it.

I don't think this is necessarily malevolent on their part: they just haven't
thought deeply about it. Plus, there's a lot of infrastructure that you'd have
to build out to provide online learning: there are a lot of logistical
obstacles in the way. You need to select a CMS, hire course developers, train
reluctant faculty and staff, figure out how to make it accessible and ADA-
compliant, design courses that make sense for online learning, then market to
students who are willing to go up online to take their classes.

Those are a lot of hurtles to overcome for an institution, and it requires a
lot of willpower and political wrangling within the institution in order to
make sure it gets done. As a result... it just doesn't. I think it'll change
with time, but it's like turning an aircraft carrier: you can't do it
overnight.

~~~
impendia
I wrote a long-winded, somewhat ill-tempered response, and then quickly
deleted it. But in brief --

I _have_ thought semi-deeply about teaching online. I _do_ believe it can be
done well, but only with a _lot_ of effort, and (at least in my department) I
don't think it would save the university money, if done well.

Personally, I'm not terribly eager to invest this effort. I've had a poor
experience with our university's training, and also I just like interacting
with people in person better. Maybe I'm just being selfish, but there are a
lot of other things I can do to benefit my university and my students, which
I'd enjoy more, and I'd rather invest my efforts there.

That said, I do think that universities who are willing to hire faculty for
remote work could develop fantastic online programs. There are tons of dual-
career academic couples that don't get jobs in the same city, and try and make
some crazy commuter marriage work. Hire them.

~~~
andy9775
> I don't think it would save the university money, if done well.

IMO universities these days are mainly in the real estate business. The
maintenance on a building with multiple 1k person lecture halls isn't cheap.
Faculty are underpaid. And yet it's more and more expensive.

~~~
bluGill
Most universities don't pay property tax (maybe not most, but many are public
and don't). They all have owned most of their land for over one hundred years.
Buildings are expensive, but those are "one time capital expenses) and just
plain don't add up.

What I'm saying is there is no obvious reason why a university costs more to
run today than 1990,but tuition has gone up far more than inflation.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Guaranteed loans and other subsidies.

~~~
bluGill
Those are enablers for sure, but not causes

~~~
mixmastamyk
What's the difference?

~~~
bluGill
If students can't get the money prices cannot go up without a drop in
enrollment thus students need a way to get money. That is why more money
enables prices to go up, the alternative of going without becomes forced if
students (other than the rich) cannot raise the money.

However the ability change more doesn't force it. Administration could
presumably keep prices down instead of - here I have no idea what they are
spending it on.

This lack of knowledge means that I cannot comment more. My opinion on using
the money to pay more teachers thus reducing class size is very different from
my opinion on private jets to some exotic vacation. (I don't think either of
the above are the case but I could be wrong)

~~~
mixmastamyk
Yes, many folks comment on administrative growth and lavish student services
to compete.

~~~
bluGill
Those are commonly blamed, but I don't have enough information to know if they
are right or any reason to believe they are experts who know what they are
talking about. It isn't something that I reject, but I am careful not to
believe it as well.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Aka, grain of salt. Well, at least there are only a few places they could be
socking away the money.

------
pyuser583
Part of the issue is that BA programs are supposed to transition students from
high school to the “adult world.”

The is very, very hard to do.

Look at how many BA students wash out at respectable institutions. At least
50%.

It required more than classes. It requires mentoring, encouraging, and shaping
students to a degree that’s hard to do online.

Graduate degrees are different. They take in people who have already
graduated, and who are more adapted.

Not many Ph. D students throw keggers five times a week.

~~~
mrosett
How much mentoring do you think goes on at your average school? My assumption
is the motivated students seek it out, but the 5x/week kegger types probably
get very little.

~~~
Retric
My experience is it’s struggling students who seek out mentoring. That may be
because their holding down a job while in school, have kids, or dug them
selves a hole by spending to much time playing video games / at parties etc.

Around 70% of students who graduate high school are going to collage. That’s a
huge swath of people who are dealing with a huge range of issues.

~~~
mrosett
> That may be because their holding down a job while in school, have kids, or
> dug them selves a hole by spending to much time playing video games / at
> parties etc.

Interesting. I saw the opposite; people who are struggling don't always have
the time, energy, or skills to build relationships with potential mentors.

------
dcminter
The Open University is pretty well respected:
[http://www.open.ac.uk/](http://www.open.ac.uk/)

~~~
toomuchtodo
Would one recommend this for someone in the US who is already decades into a
career and just needs the checkbox checked and their employer will pickup the
tab?

~~~
chrisseaton
I hear OU is surprisingly hard work and surprisingly expensive.

You think you'll do an online degree in your spare time and it turns out it's
a decade of work and costs thousands of dollars.

~~~
wiredfool
My wife is doing an OU degree, outside the UK, but in Ireland. (So, testing
centers are available, but we’re paying the non uk/ni/Scotland rates). At
current prices, an undergraduate degree from the OU is on the order of $20k.
It’s nominally a 3 year degree, and at a full time class load, it’s supposed
to be a full time experience, I.e. 40 hrs a week.

Of that, there are probably 4x 30 credit classes in first year, 2x60 in each
of second and third year. For a degree in a specific subject, these are all
going to be “in major”.

My read of it is that it’s a more focused, less all around degree than what I
remember of an undergrad degree, where I had 4-5 classes 2x per year for 4
years. I can’t speak to the technical level, as she’s doing languages, which
are all Greek to me.

------
mmmBacon
Arizona State seems to have some good online bachelor degrees. They don't
offer CS but they do have software engineering.

[https://asuonline.asu.edu/online-degree-
programs/undergradua...](https://asuonline.asu.edu/online-degree-
programs/undergraduate/bachelor-science-software-engineering/)

------
_eht
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I finished my last year of AA (psych)
with University of Phoenix after starting at my local community college. Side
by side I wouldn’t hesitate to say that while the data transfer medium was
different, the work and testing was on par with the community college
curriculum. I would note that there was a lot more written work than lecture
at UoP, but that could be a discrepancy between first and second year studies.

The stigma for attending one of these schools is terrible. Not undeserved, as
they are predatory and for profit. But so are community colleges, in maybe
different ways, but for the same reasons.

I keep it on my resume even though I work in IT. I’m personally proud of it as
an accomplishment despite the crap I catch whenever it’s brought up.

~~~
ipince
I never knew community colleges were predatory and for profit. Aren't they
public institutions? Do you have any good references you can share? Thanks

~~~
birdyrooster
Where I came from (NE Ohio) most of their students took longer than 4 years to
graduate with a 2 year degree and many more never finished. The quality of
curriculum and teaching was typically poor and the equipment was only
adequate. It was and probably still is, for the average customer, a waste of
money.

~~~
JamesBarney
This is the complete opposite of what my friends and family have experienced.
Many of their favorite teachers worked at community colleges. Specifically at
Austin and Houston community colleges. And many got their undergrad at more
prestigious universities like University of Texas at Austin.

~~~
_eht
Nobody here is saying the teachers were bad.

~~~
JamesBarney
That's how I read

> The quality of curriculum and teaching was typically poor

------
sloaken
I think this is a good one: [https://www.wgu.edu/online-it-
degrees.html](https://www.wgu.edu/online-it-degrees.html)

~~~
50208
Agree. I completed 2 years at 2 different "brick and mortar" Universities in
the past, took a long hiatus to build a career in IT, then went back to school
(WGU) to complete a BS in IT-Security last June and am now back again and
enrolled in the Masters in Cybersecurity and Information Assurance program. I
/ we haven't missed a beat with the onset of this pandemic (unlike almost
everything else in my life) and that's saying something.

Just like the "B&M" classes I took previously, some classes are great, some
less so, some hard, some less so. Anyone who thinks a school like WGU is "less
good" probably has not actually experienced it and / or has a reason to
protect the status quo. A student does have to self direct more in online
programs, for a fact. But with that comes much more flexibility and scheduling
freedom. And the price, at least for WGU, can't be beat.

~~~
non-entity
My biggest worry is the aggressive advertising ministry that of for-profit
degree mills. Even just filling out an interest form leads to a mass of spam
email, phone calls and even snail mail.

~~~
50208
WGU is non-profit.

------
runawaybottle
It might be as simple as there as tens of thousands of 18 year olds ready to
fill existing Bachelor’s programs straight out of High School. The financing
for that is low hanging fruit, they can use their federal aid or loans to pay
for several semesters (whether they pass or fail). This stream of cash is easy
money, new adults and their parents are expected to spend their time and money
on this from a cultural standpoint. There’s nothing to switch up in this
business model.

Now take a Master’s program. Most people are done with college and are working
full time. If you seriously want their business, you better offer them every
flexibility in the world. It’s a whole different game.

One group is literally groomed to hand you money, often not even their own.
The latter is a group that is no longer part of that setup and will make an
independent decision based on a variety of factors.

------
verdverm
Self study is never going to be as good as immersion in an academic
environment. The impact that ad hoc conversations and events with peers and
professors have is profound. You just don't get this with online or remote
learning.

~~~
andy9775
My undergrad is very focused on self-study. Prof's have gone the the extent of
saying, "I won't waste time showing you this, you could just go on youtube".
Flipped classroom models are increasing and the focus is again, on self study.

I'd say online doesn't work for all programs or courses. But do you need to
sit in a room with 1k people in order to learn calc 1? It's just the prof
going through some examples on the powerpoint/overhead nothing more. Asking
questions isn't easy either.

Upload some lecture videos and then hold office hours instead of lecture
hours. It's not like what you taught in psyc 100 last semester is much
different than this.

~~~
ardy42
> My undergrad is very focused on self-study. Prof's have gone the the extent
> of saying, "I won't waste time showing you this, you could just go on
> youtube". Flipped classroom models are increasing and the focus is again, on
> self study.

What university is that? It sounds awful.

> But do you need to sit in a room with 1k people in order to learn calc 1?
> It's just the prof going through some examples on the powerpoint/overhead
> nothing more. Asking questions isn't easy either.

> Upload some lecture videos and then hold office hours instead of lecture
> hours. It's not like what you taught in psyc 100 last semester is much
> different than this.

That's only kinda true of 100-level courses and massively popular generals,
and quickly becomes false the farther you advance.

And even if it is a 100-level general, you can still ask questions if you're
motivated and curious. When I was considering a career change, I retook
general chemistry and a few other lower-level science courses as an adult. I
asked a lot of questions, though many were picking at things that were too
advanced for the course. You can't do that with a recording.

~~~
andy9775
> What university is that? It sounds awful.

Rather not say, but a few do that. Plus in something like CS there's an hour
long wait for office hours which are 2 hours twice a week with maybe 3 profs -
so 6 hours for 500+ students - not much opportunity to ask questions.

> That's only kinda true of 100-level courses and massively popular generals,
> and quickly becomes false the farther you advance.

Absolutely. Get rid of the 1k lecture theatres for the undergrad courses and
build some labs. Get some 3D printers/CNC machines for the Engineering
students. A mock court room for the Law department? Some chemistry labs? Move
the "I don't need to be here to learn" courses online and expand office hours,
TA availability and provide more hands on experience.

Ya, I wouldn't want to see a doctor who learned online. But one how took some
calc or basic med courses online but has more hands on/practical experience?
Sure!

------
mlthoughts2018
I speculate this is because specialized higher education is less valuable, in
all senses, than well-rounded general education at the bachelor’s level.

A bachelor’s degree is valuable to the student and to society as a
transformative period of time when someone can study a wide range of topics,
especially topics that focus on large-scale world ethics, and integrate the
moral and social maturity imparted by it via social networking within and
across universities.

The particular domain knowledge or training in eg math or computer science,
pre-med, sociology or psychology, music, education, etc., are not very
valuable. Employers don’t really care about any of that, apart from virtue
signaling to weed out mass candidate pipelines. The actual knowledge itself is
just table stakes and pretty worthless; companies will have to train you to do
jobs that have effectively zero to do with acquired skills like programming.
But general well-rounded cultural appreciation of a base foundation puts
everyone into a level playing field to be fit for plugging in as an employee:
basic understanding of how to work in groups on projects, managing
interpersonal relationships even when you don’t like them, having a common
standard of collegiality and “how things are done,” common understanding of
academic/liberal social norms.

While possible, there has not been created an online bachelor’s program that
successfully replicates anything like this yet. They all focus on skill
building and curriculum, as if that was any part of the purpose of college.

Master’s degrees are quite different. They are a pure credential kind of
thing, a certificate of advanced training. It’s assumed you already have the
social norm education and that’s not the goal. The hard skills of the training
still don’t actually matter to anyone in master’s degrees (nor even PhDs), but
they can be used for clout or authority or stack ranking in terms of how
decision-making ranks are established. This is much more amenable to online
courses because all that matters is the certificate at the end, nobody cares
how you got it. With bachelor’s degrees they actually do care that you
physically attended “intellectual workforce finishing school” at a physical
campus, because the social norm / behavioral training is the only part anyone
cares about.

------
atlasunshrugged
That's a great question that I've wondered myself - a part of it (in the U.S.)
I think is the belief that a huge part of the value of a bachelors degree is
growth you get living alone, in dorms, learning how to be an adult, etc. that
aren't really part of a curriculum and would be hard or impossible to do
online. In addition, I know that a massive number of people who take online
courses (just the individual ones from Coursera and the like) tend to drop
out, so maybe they colleges think that if they had an entire 4yr degree online
almost no one would actually graduate (which may hurt their rankings or they
dislike for some other reason that doesn't bother for profit colleges).

~~~
leetcrew
> I think is the belief that a huge part of the value of a bachelors degree is
> growth you get living alone, in dorms, learning how to be an adult, etc.
> that aren't really part of a curriculum and would be hard or impossible to
> do online.

a counterexample would be the existence of respected schools with a large
amount of commuter students, many of whom continue to live with their parents
while going to school. I graduated from such a place. if you really wanted (in
cs at least), you could only show up in class for exams and still get an A if
you did all the homeworks and projects. this school is one of the most heavily
targeted in the state for tech recruiting.

> In addition, I know that a massive number of people who take online courses
> (just the individual ones from Coursera and the like) tend to drop out, so
> maybe they colleges think that if they had an entire 4yr degree online
> almost no one would actually graduate (which may hurt their rankings or they
> dislike for some other reason that doesn't bother for profit colleges).

this is a bit more convincing. online schools already have a stigma since the
originals were almost (or actually) scams. probably no one want to take the
risk of offering the first online degree.

------
evolve2k
My partner works for an Australian university, she had this to say when I
shared this article with her:

"From my understanding Bachelor degrees are much more regulated (in Australia
anyway). Private Colleges can offer Grad Cert and Grad Dip and Master degrees
but not Bachelor degrees, which make me think the government has highly
regulated Bachelor degrees. I think that there must be a certain percentage of
face to face, practical subjects, mentoring and industry placements, but I
imagine in the current environment that this will be all up for discussion."

~~~
fungi
Got my Bachelors from Charles Sturt University. 100% online (not counting the
1 networking elective i took that had a 2day school playing with network gear,
and international study tour i took in China for a couple weeks).

[https://study.csu.edu.au/courses/technology-computing-
maths/...](https://study.csu.edu.au/courses/technology-computing-
maths/bachelor-information-technology)

You have to sit exams in person at the end of each semester. There are exam
centres all around the world
[https://exams.csu.edu.au/dist_students/centrelist.php?intern...](https://exams.csu.edu.au/dist_students/centrelist.php?international=international&action=All+Centres+Outside+Australia)

------
tinkrr
This course is offered by a reputable university and is supposed to be
equivalent to it's on campus course.

[https://www.coursera.org/degrees/bachelor-of-science-
compute...](https://www.coursera.org/degrees/bachelor-of-science-computer-
science-london/)

------
gwillz
Recently, I've had the strange privilege to teach for two very different
education groups at the same time. One, a traditional university that includes
online interaction but definitely not adept at it. The other offers intensive
bootcamps that offered online or in-person.

I began this year teaching both as in-person classes. When restrictions from
COVID-19 the bootcamp quickly responded and converted all of it's classes
online with relative ease. It already offers these classes online with great
success and the content has converted into the virtual world _very_ well.
Students are completing their work just fine.

The university on the other hand was somewhat slow to respond. The faculty I
work for reacted much faster and jumped into virtual classes asap. Even then,
the content just isn't designed for online classes. I don't have the tools to
properly communicate or provide help. The students don't have the etiquette
for it or the motivation.

The cohorts are quite different too - mature students vs. high school
graduates - so I guess the compared experiences are muddled by that also.

Overall, I've found the university just hasn't invested in its content. Not to
say the program content isn't valuable - I completed it myself years ago. The
educators there don't have the drive/need/want to create content that works
virtually. They're comfortable where they are, and to be fair, I honestly
think in-person teaching can be more effective. However, you can get damn
close - virtually - if you can write good content.

I think this echoes other comments here. It's hard and they don't have the
resources to get everyone on-board with making online-capable content.

~~~
protomyth
Traditional Universities were going to be slower because they need permission
from the accreditation agency before going fully online. We got word last week
that they would expedite requests because of the COVID-19.

~~~
epicureanideal
Excellent! Let's hope there is at least some lasting good that comes from the
current terrible situation.

~~~
protomyth
Currently, its a temporary waiver, so I wouldn't be too hopeful. Plus, I can
see it at the state schools, but if we are talking the "prestige" schools then
I would be damn mad because their biggest value is the contacts you make (or
so I am told and observed).

------
gumby
Apparently Coursera manages online degrees that are "real" degrees for some
schools. Like U of Illinois: if you get your degree online you get a regular
diploma, not one marked that you pursued your studies online (and you qualify
for the alumni assoc etc).

The implication I read from this is that online degrees are not taken as
seriously. And the fact is there's a lot you get from school beyond the
lectures; the interactions with other students and with faculty and just being
out of your usual zone all make a big difference.

It's also a lot of work I imagine to get on a platform like Coursera's, and
while it's the only one I've really found useful (I've tried a few for a class
here or there) I still didn't like it much.

Note: my gf used to work there which is why I tried one course on their
platform and why I even know about this at all. Which is another sign that
online degrees are still considered marginal.

------
munin
Teaching classes effectively is very hard and very few people can do it. It
also doesn’t pay that well and is draining and often times not that rewarding.
Universities try to get people that are good at it as professors by bribing
them with the respect and autonomy that the title “professor” confers. Outside
of the classroom, the professor does whatever they want to advance their own
agenda.

I would think online only programs would have a hard time competing with
universities for people that can design and execute effective courses. There
are so few that most universities don’t even employ many of them. Why would
someone like that work for an online school when they could work for one that
would give them tenure, funding, lab space, grad students, etc?

~~~
foldr
>Universities try to get people that are good at it as professors by bribing
them with the respect and autonomy that the title “professor” confers.

Generally speaking, universities don't care much about teaching ability.
Hiring decisions are based almost entirely on research profiles (except where
the institution itself has a clear focus on teaching over research, as at e.g.
some liberal arts colleges). There are two main reasons for this. First,
research brings more money and prestige. Second, student satisfaction has
little to do with teaching quality. You can make students happy just by giving
them a light workload and good grades.

So in fact, there are lots of people who are good at teaching who universities
have no interest in hiring.

------
ilaksh
I think universities are protecting their turf, and people who spent quite a
lot of money and effort for in-person college are also to some degree. There
are a significant number of people who do not want online bachelor degrees to
become credible.

~~~
electriclove
Not sure why you are getting downvoted. Just like other industries, there are
people who benefit from the status quo.

What does a reputable university have to lose by offering equivalent degrees
online? Quite a bit actually

------
michaelbrave
It's because the purpose of college is more about signalling than about career
training. The things that keep people out are what make it valuable. If you
make it more accessible then it loses it's value.

~~~
vecter
I see this trope oft-repeated on HN and I just don't think it's true. I
certainly hope that that wasn't your college experience. My experience was
incredible, both academically and socially, and it truly changed the way I
think. The level of abstraction with which I approach the world now is way
higher than when I entered college, and I credit that to the math classes I
took.This abstract thinking makes me a better problem solver in every part of
my life. I also walked away with a handful of friends that will be my best
friends until the day I die. College was the crucible that forged those
friendships, and I haven't found a substitute for that since.

To you point about "career training", I don't see college as a vocational
school. The best point of college in my opinion is to learn not only a lot of
facts and specialize in an area of study, but more importantly, to learn how
to think and solve problems.

If you learn a lot of facts and rely solely on the facts that you've learned,
then obviously you won't adapt well to the real world where most of the
problems you encounter are situations with imperfect information and no clear
best solutions. However, if you choose your college degree wisely and learn
how to learn, then you'll be able to tackle most challenges that come your way
later on in life, both in your job and outside.

------
symplee
What we need is a credible credentialing system where you can demonstrate
you've acquired knowledge comparable to a bachelors degree. Instead of just
adding more walled gardens of degree granting institutions.

~~~
Buttons840
How would that be different than a "learn at your own pace" school?

~~~
symplee
It would be a separate entity, whose sole job is verification, not education.

------
fapi1974
This is an interesting question and one I hadn't thought of before. In the
market for talent, degrees are just a signaling device. They help employers
identify "the good ones." So schools build their signal by making it hard to
get in, doing the prework of identifying the good ones. MOOCs, on the other
hand, do the opposite - they let anyone in, so there is no signaling. It does
seem like you should be able to create an online degree that mirrors this
signal by marketing the hell out of how hard it is to get in and complete.

------
malandrew
I would say that it is because a bachelor program is a system that needs to be
born at scale to be useful. With most online education, it's a single course.
With a bachelors program, it's many curriculums, which is many courses in many
areas of study. I don't see how you get to that and preserve quality. The only
thing you may not have to scale is having all four years worth of courses on
day one. You do however need all courses for the first year of study on day
one and a commitment to provide subsequent years of study as students advance.
But then it's chicken and egg. What student will pay for a bachelors program
that has no guanrantees of the remaining 3 years of the degree.

The only way I see a credible one existing is if people focus on just
coursework for one area of study, each of these being a startup, and then
later on down the line, consolidation through mergers and acquisitions starts
to produce a multidisciplinary program.

The only other path I see is a credible meatspace bachelor program moving
entirely online.

I suspect the idea of a bachelors program will die before any of this happens.
The increasing focus on indoctrination in higher education is destroying the
credibility of the humanities departments. I'd personally be more interested
in hiring someone that spent two years doing a focused engineering degree than
someone that spent 4 years pursuing a bachelor degree that contains 2 years of
engineering and 2 years of indoctrination and brainwashing.

------
makecheck
Comparing my engineering BSc and MSc experiences, there were significant
numbers of “labs” during the BSc years that would be difficult to replace in
an online course (and I think I would have regretted not having those
experiences). Conversely, MSc courses didn’t have labs; even the big projects
were things that could be done at home (e.g. programming, hardware kits) and
while the classes usually had TAs, the TAs were rarely present for any in-
class components.

------
MistahKoala
Somebody else has already mentioned The Open University
([https://open.ac.uk](https://open.ac.uk)) and I happily recommend them, as
one of their alumni.

Another established and well-regarded institution is the University of London
International Programme ([https://london.ac.uk](https://london.ac.uk)). The
courses are relatively low cost, but rely a lot on self-discipline.

~~~
barry-cotter
I’m doing a Master’s with the University of London. I can recommend it though
as with anything else you get out what you put in. I’ve found my course,
Finance (Economic Policy[1]) interesting and reasonably rigorous.

[1] [https://www.cefims.ac.uk/programmes/economic-
policy/masters/](https://www.cefims.ac.uk/programmes/economic-policy/masters/)

------
ineedasername
Someone eligible for a Master's has already demonstrated the ability to
complete a time-intensive course of study that requires a decent level of
self-efficacy and advocacy.

In contrast, a typical middle of the road University might only see 60% to 75%
of its original freshmen class students graduate in 6 to 8 years. 40% in 4
years is common. So, a majority of undergrads do not, for one reason or
another, stay on the recommended track for graduation.

A big part of this is supper resources: many\most schos are under staffed in
academic support services. Now consider, in that context, an online course: it
is even more the case that such students are further removed from the support
structure provided by the college.

Finally, there simply isn't strong demand: most students are looking for the
traditional undergrad experience, which is at least as much a social
environment as a learning one. You don't get that online. Contrast that to
post grads looking for a Masters, which tend to be a group much more focused
on the nuts and bolts of completing their program.

Source: I work in Higher ed analytics, focussing quite a bit on success
factors in persistence and completion rates.

------
bertr4nd
I would guess that the difficulty of preventing cheating in an online setting
discourages institutions from going fully online.

For masters work and above I suspect this concern is less prominent because
it’s likely to be a smaller student pool (easier to police per student), doing
higher level work (harder to cheat successfully), and to be less accessible to
would-be cheaters (due to filtering at the bachelors level).

~~~
galimaufry
This. Preventing cheating in an online-only course requires meatspace
infrastructure: testing facilities where students can be monitored. That
infrastructure is still patchy.

~~~
jki275
Not really. They mostly use proctortrack these days, along with algorithmic
analysis of the answers.

------
epicureanideal
Part of the problem may be the accreditation process. For federal student aid,
and also professional licensure for certain occupations (psychology for
example), you need to attend an accredited program. But the accreditation
process is controlled by existing institutions and people who work at existing
institutions.

One way to open up this market to innovation would be to try to get the laws
changed about accreditation. Make it so it's much easier to objectively prove
that the institution is providing ongoing value to its students, and receive
accredited status without significant involvement by people who are not
incentivized to encourage innovation.

People might be involved in the process, but rather than making subjective
judgements about whether the program is good enough, make the measures
objective. Then the person involved is really just checking boxes. If they
refuse to check the boxes despite evidence, there should be an appeal process
with civil damages for any clearly unnecessary delays caused.

~~~
TrinaryWorksToo
wgu.edu pushed accreditation laws to change:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Governors_University](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Governors_University)

------
Merrill
By the time they reach the Masters, students should know how to learn
independently. Masters students often have some work experience as well.

The Bachelors is the period where students go from being taught in High School
to learning on their own. It probably is harder to implement effectively
online than the Masters.

------
jsntrmn
I have been enrolled in classes at The Pennsylvania State University's (PSU)
World Campus[1] since the spring semester of 2014. This is PSU's fully online
offering. I first earned an AS in Information Systems Technology (IST) en
route to continuing for my BS in IST. I will graduate this fall.

I took my sweet time because, alongside my studies, I've maintained full time
employment in industry (first as an SE and recently moving into cloud
architecture). I share this to highlight that, although I've been in it for
the long haul, the quality of the education (e. g., course design, instructor
engagement, CMS quality, etc.) has kept me thoroughly rapt along the journey.

[1] [https://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/](https://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/)

------
lcall
One excellent option is BYU Pathway Worldwide and associated programs. It
requires a Church affiliation but not necessarily membership (I think) or the
same standards for on-campus BYU attendance. I think tuition is lower,
bachelors programs (like business) are available, and the programs are
excellent, and can be done entirely on-line, and is also suitable for those
who need to become qualified for entering a university, then provides that
university. More info is in Wikipedia and I have gathered a bit of info
including linking to a news article that explains it well I think, here:
[http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854578440.html](http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854578440.html)
.

~~~
lcall
Looks like there are ~40 bachelors degree programs including in tech,
business, family something, and professional something.

The WGU (wgu.edu) mentioned elsewhere here is also probably very good.

------
ph0rque
To follow up with this: is there a good online community college anyone can
recommend?

------
weston
I didn’t see it mentioned yet, but Oregon State has been running an online
Post-Bacc in Computer Science for the past several years. They also just
started doing a standard bachelor’s program 100% online for CS.

------
jccalhoun
I've been teaching at a community college for a few years and online classes -
at least in my field - tend not to be great. There isn't a lot of "teaching"
that goes on in them. While students may learn it is largely up to them. I
have made up the assignments and I have recorded some mini-lectures but I feel
like I'm a grader not a teacher of online classes.

(Of course right now with the virus we are trying to do as many regular
meetings online at the scheduled class times as possible and I feel it is more
similar to face to face teaching.)

------
tinyhouse
The same reason why it's very hard to find high school programs online.
Academically, many degrees you can study online and be as successful as the
non-online students, as far as passing tests goes. But bachelor studies unlike
masters is not viewed as a professional degree. Like high school it's an
important phase in one's development - in all aspects, not just socially. And
in the US at least it's also a pretty important money maker for many schools.
You cannot charge $30K/year for an online degree.

------
smoyer
There are quite a few at Penn State's world campus:
[https://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/](https://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/)

------
aaron695
Have you ever said screw it with your online mates and skipped classes and
gone to the pub and ended up being chased down by the police after stealing
traffic signs?

For young people universities decide their cohort for life. This determines
success.

Like you say, masters online is more common, cohort's by a masters are often
already decided.

------
naveen99
Well all credible universities are going to have to enable online bachelors
programs if we are going to properly deal with infectious diseases moving
forward. If most companies become remote first, it’s not much of a stretch to
make college remote first.

~~~
mayneack
It's way too early to assume that the current pandemic will cause such drastic
changes to society. Even if it turns out to be close to the damage as the 1918
flu, that was still more than 100 years ago. My guess is that the rise in
remote work will be due to people being forced to all try it now more so than
because they'll be preemptively trying to prevent this from happening again.

------
dannykwells
I think Minerva has a big online component:
[https://www.minerva.kgi.edu/](https://www.minerva.kgi.edu/)

Fully accredited by the KGI so also has some legitimacy.

------
pcvarmint
Thomas Edison State University has been online for over 20 years:
[https://www.tesu.edu/](https://www.tesu.edu/)

------
SubiculumCode
Just wait after this year. Spring quarter at UC Davis is purely online because
of the COVID-19 outbreak, for example.

------
austenallred
The real answer isn’t as logical or rational as most of us would like to
believe. It’s a combination of inertia and fear of cannibalization.

Most Universities want the high price/high value programs to remain on campus
and don’t want to undercut themselves by putting them online.

------
projektfu
That fact is because the bachelor degree no longer has any particular value.
It’s the new GED. It’s required for jobs that do not need that level of
education. It rarely is enough to qualify for a job that needs a university
education.

------
GcVmvNhBsU
This article mentions one possible factor:
[https://www.huffpost.com/highline/article/capitalist-
takeove...](https://www.huffpost.com/highline/article/capitalist-takeover-
college/)

------
drpgq
Probably worth reading Bryan Caplan's The Case Against Education for some
insight on why.

