
A Typical Day for PFC Bradley Manning - MaysonL
http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.info/2010/12/typical-day-for-pfc-bradley-manning.html
======
iuguy
I can't help but feel that while the treatment is severe and terrible that
this isn't an appropriate post for Hacker News. This type of thing is a
shining example of something that belongs on Reddit, where there's greater
exposure and it's more on-topic. Is it interesting, yes (to some, although I'm
sure there's plenty that could say not on hacker news as it's tied to
wikileaks).

I would say that while the treatment of him is terrible, it meets the off-
topic criteria (crime, politics, TV news). I'm posting this separately to my
engagement in the discussion.

~~~
lotusleaf1987
I'm so so so tired of people complaining about what is and what isn't HN
relevant. Yes maybe the topic is not technology but isn't this something that
effects us (Americans mostly) regardless of whether or not it's HN news?

I welcome the news because how else would I have the time to find all these
articles on my own? I wouldn't, so I actually appreciate that someone posted
it here.

If you really don't have interest in the article then just don't click it,
move along. It seems like you're putting in more effort complaining than it
would take to just skip to the next HN news article.

~~~
lambda
The problem is that when a forum like Hacker News loses its focus, it loses
its value.

I've observed this as Reddit has expanded. /r/programming used to be a good
source for learning about neat new technologies and programming techniques.
Now, in part because it's one of the default front-page subreddits for an
expanding user base on Reddit that mostly aren't programmers, the programming
content gets buried beneath jokes, general technology or computer related
articles that aren't about programming specifically, and the like.

If Hacker News loses its focus on programming and startups, it risks this
happening as well. The detention conditions of PFC Bradley Manning may be
interesting, but they are not on topic for a site like Hacker News. There are
many other places you can read about and discuss that topic. There aren't many
places where I can read about and discuss a broad range of programming and
startup related information like I find on Hacker News.

~~~
lotusleaf1987
Let's have that discussion when it's actually a significant problem, but it's
not right now. Every time I load HN I find 10-15 relevant tech articles and
maybe 1-2 articles like this. I'm fine with that ratio. Everyone seems to be
making a bigger deal out of this than is justified.

------
philwelch
Most of this is fairly standard solitary confinement/suicide watch procedures,
frankly. There are thousands of prisoners receiving comparable treatment who
are not part of some politically trendy Wikileaks controversy. If you find any
of this outrageous, don't think Bradley Manning is a special case in the
slightest.

~~~
hugh3
Exactly. How many people cared about the plight of people in solitary
confinement and suicide watch _last_ week?

There are people in prison having a far worse time than Manning. Come to think
of it, if I were in prison I'd much rather be in solitary confinement like
Manning than in with the general prison population (where my options would
presumably be either to join the Aryan Brotherhood or get beaten up every
day).

~~~
maxawaytoolong
_where my options would presumably be either to join the Aryan Brotherhood or
get beaten up every day_

He's in a military prison , not Riker's Island.

~~~
philwelch
That's exactly the point. There are 14,000 prisoners at Riker's Island, and
many of them live in similar or worse conditions than PFC Manning.

How do prisons become HN-worthy content just because someone involved with
internet drama just happens to be in the prison?

------
joakin
All this feels like 1984... While reading it I got anxious,stressed and
wanting to exercise. It has to be horrible that the only hour a day that you
can really move the only thing to do is walking.

FREE Manning, innocent until proved guilty

~~~
Confusion
The point most people want to make is not that he may be treated in this way
if he has been proven to be guilty, but this is exactly what you are doing in
the eyes of people that consider the treatment acceptable. The constant calls
upon the 'innocent until proven guilty' mantra are a huge red herring. If you
want to argue the treatment is wrong, you should argue exactly that and not
argue against the treatment based on the current circumstances.

Effectively, this argument achieves the exact opposite of what you want: it
strengthens the other side in their belief that Manning may be treated in this
way. This is because of two things:

\- he's in the military

\- he's pretty much confessed

People feel that 'innocent until proved guilty' is not really an issue because
of those two things and arguing against that feeling is a colossal waste of
time, when what you actually want is to convince people that Manning shouldn't
be treated like he currently is, period.

~~~
arethuza
While I can't comment on the details of this case, it is perhaps worth noting
that lots of people confess to crimes they didn't commit for a variety of
reasons including coercion and/or mental illness.

~~~
ugh
The grandparent doesn’t express any personal belief about the veracity of
Manning’s confession.

Her or his last sentence is the important one: “ _People_ feel that ‘innocent
until proved guilty’ is not really an issue because of those two things (i.e.
because Manning confessed and is in the military) and arguing against that
feeling (i.e. the feeling of people that Manning is guilty) is a colossal
waste of time, when what you actually want is to convince people that Manning
shouldn't be treated like he currently is, period.” (Emphasis and annotations
in brackets mine.)

------
plinkplonk
"The guards are required to check on PFC Manning every five minutes by asking
him if he is okay. PFC Manning is required to respond in some affirmative
manner."

If true, this is terrible.

~~~
Confusion
My initial reaction was the same, but on second thought I think it may not be
that bad. I agree that it would initially prevent the subject from
concentrating, but he might get used to it in such a way that he can
acknowledge the question with a 'yes' without breaking concentration.

Some people can work with the radio on, others only when it doesn't contain
commercials, others can't work with any music. I can sleep virtually anywhere,
while others, in the same room, can't stand a certain buzz, regularly
recurring electromechanical noises or other sounds. However, with prolonged
exposure, I think anyone would start to be able to work and sleep in
environments with intruding noises.

~~~
mwg66
Isn't interrupted sleep (arguably sleep deprivation) a questionable a form of
torture?

~~~
Confusion
They are not waking him every 5 minutes: that only happens during the day. At
night he is awakened under some circumstances, but whether that constitutes
sleep deprivation depends on how often it happens and there is no report on
that.

~~~
cjdavis
"The guards are required to check on PFC Manning every five minutes by asking
him if he is okay. PFC Manning is required to respond in some affirmative
manner. At night, if the guards cannot see PFC Manning clearly, because he has
a blanket over his head or is curled up towards the wall, they will wake him
in order to ensure he is okay."

~~~
hugh3
Right, so he's not woken at night _unless_ they can't see him. Kinda like how
the flight attendants will wake you if there's turbulence and they can't see
whether you've got your seat belt buckled or not.

------
MoreMoschops
An awful lot of that does sound like psychological torture dressed up to just
about make it possible to present some kind of legal argument that it's for
other purposes, and the damaging effects on the detainee are an unfortunate
by-product.

------
jrockway
I don't understand the use of the word "force" and "require", as in "required
to respond every five minutes". What if he doesn't? They'll send him to prison
where he'll be required to respond to their questions every five minutes? Oh
wait.

(I understand that in "regular" prisons, there are privileges, like
socialization, that can be taken away to coerce you into following the rules.
But in this case, it seems like there's nothing left to take away, so what's
the incentive to follow the rules?)

~~~
rms
>But in this case, it seems like there's nothing left to take away, so what's
the incentive to follow the rules?

Minor beatings from angry guys with guns.

~~~
tptacek
At extreme risk of sanctimony, but worth it to me because I follow your
comments:

Maybe consider whether you want to be this glib about military prison guards.
MCB Quantico is presumably staffed by the USMC. As I understand it:

(1) People don't join the USMC and then get to choose to work as a brig guard
stateside; these are people who volunteered to serve at an extremely difficult
time.

(2) The people who land in stateside posts tend to have first done a tour
overseas; the "angry guys with guns" administering "minor beatings" are likely
to be people who have already served their country in ways I can't possibly
imagine doing myself.

I might consider giving these people the benefit of the doubt. (I'm anti-war,
a liberal dem, but I have a healthy dose of respect for people who volunteer
for the armed services.)

If you disagree, that's fine, I won't have a temper tantrum, but I thought it
was worth saying.

Incidentally, there's a Reddit AmA with an MCB Quantico brig guard running
right now.

~~~
MichaelSalib
_The people who land in stateside posts tend to have first done a tour
overseas_

Actually, that's less likely than one might think. Deployments to
Iraq/Afghanistan are distributed in a very non-uniform manner throughout the
military. See [1].

 _the "angry guys with guns" administering "minor beatings" are likely to be
people who have already served their country in ways I can't possibly imagine
doing myself._

I don't think the implication was that the guards would abuse him because they
were in the military -- but rather because they were in a position of power
that tended to turn people into violent crazy people. Power corrupts and all,
to say nothing of the Stanford prison experiment.

[1]
[http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/03/18/puzzlements_...](http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/03/18/puzzlements_why_have_so_few_soldiers_and_marines_deployed)

~~~
tptacek
If you look at the crosstabs for those numbers, you find that the number of
Marines in the "Corrections Specialist" MOS that haven't deployed at all are
absolutely dwarfed by people with MOS like "Personnel Clerk" and "Finance
Technician" and "Administrative Clerk" (and, "Combat Illustrator"? Really?).

One gets the sense that "Corrections Specialists" do in fact deploy.

The Stanford Prison Experiment is probably not a license to assume that anyone
working as a prison guard is breaking the law and their own honor code. But,
who knows.

------
jeffreyrusso
Glen Greenwald's salon.com piece on this is also a worthy read; it discusses
the irreversible physical harm to the brain these conditions have probably
already caused Manning. They also have him on a steady dose of
antidepressants... All this makes me sick to hear about.

~~~
Jd
Link:
[http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14...](http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14/manning/index.html)

------
steve19
That must be hellish. It seems a lot of these restrictions were intended to be
for his own good to prevent him from causing himself physical harm. What good
are they if they are causing him psychological damage?

~~~
Alex3917
"What good are they if they are causing him psychological damage?"

Their goal isn't to just cause psychological damage, it's to cause physical
brain damage through controlled sensory deprivation.

~~~
steve19
I am disappointed your comment is being upvoted. Just because the conditions
are terrible, outright and false hyperbole should not be used on the site like
HN. We don't need propaganda here.

Being in regular contact with people (every 5 minutes), being able to watch TV
for hours each day, corresponding via mail and being able to read books means
he is not even remotely in the same league as people being tourtoured with
_real_ sensory deprivation [2]

While the military can do and has done [1] sensory deprivation , this is not
it.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
[0]

It sounds to me like they are trying to prevent him from committing suicide.
But the prevention is probably doing him a lot of damage.

\---

[0] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor>

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jose_Padilla_at_the_Navy_C...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jose_Padilla_at_the_Navy_Consolidated_Brig.jpg)

[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation>

Edit: formatting.

~~~
Alex3917
That's why I said controlled sensory deprivation. It's a spectrum. Just
because it doesn't involve ketamine and float tanks doesn't mean they aren't
trying to destroy his brain. First of all there are no indications that he is
or has ever been suicidal, so that explanation is laughable. And how exactly
is preventing him from doing any exercise supposed to keep him from committing
suicide anyway?

Even relatively mild sensory deprivation can cause fairly severe depression,
as I make the case for here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=948637>

And what they are doing to him is way more extreme than what most people with
depression are accidentally doing to themselves.

~~~
hugh3
What makes you think there's no indication that he's been is or has ever been
suicidal? Why would we know about it, if there had been? Is it not plausible
that a kid who was pretty screwed up in the first place, who committed treason
on a lark, and who is now facing life in prison for betraying his country,
might turn suicidal?

The only indication we have one way or the other is that he's on Prevention of
Injury watch, which is a pretty good sign that somebody thinks he is.

~~~
Alex3917
From MSNBC:

"When he was first arrested, Manning was put on suicide watch, but his status
was quickly changed to "Prevention of Injury" watch (POI), and under this
lesser pretense he has been forced into his life of mind-numbing tedium. His
treatment is harsh, punitive and taking its toll, says Coombs.

'There is no evidence he's a threat to himself, and shouldn't be held in such
severe conditions under the artifice of his own protection.'

"The command is basing this treatment of him solely on the nature of the
pending charges, and on an unrelated incident where a service member in the
facility took his own life," Coombs said, referencing the February suicide of
a marine captain in the Quantico brig. Coombs says he believes Quantico
officials are keeping Manning under close watch with strict limitations on his
activity out of an overabundance of caution. Both Coombs and Manning's
psychologist, Coombs says, are sure Manning is mentally healthy, that there is
no evidence he's a threat to himself, and shouldn't be held in such severe
conditions under the artifice of his own protection."

[http://bltwy.msnbc.msn.com/politics/bradley-mannings-
prison-...](http://bltwy.msnbc.msn.com/politics/bradley-mannings-prison-
hell-1669811.story)

C.f. also Glenn Greenwald's column from the other day, where he says:

"From the beginning of his detention, Manning has been held in intensive
solitary confinement. For 23 out of 24 hours every day -- for seven straight
months and counting -- he sits completely alone in his cell. Even inside his
cell, his activities are heavily restricted; he's barred even from exercising
and is under constant surveillance to enforce those restrictions. For reasons
that appear completely punitive, he's being denied many of the most basic
attributes of civilized imprisonment, including even a pillow or sheets for
his bed (he is not and never has been on suicide watch). For the one hour per
day when he is freed from this isolation, he is barred from accessing any news
or current events programs."

[http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14...](http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14/manning/)

Greenwald is currently addressing the perceived discrepancies between what he
wrote and what Coombs said on his twitter account:

"@jon_persky Quantico is emphatic that he's not on suicide watch. And what
would that have to do with 23hr/day solitary?"
<http://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/16417820896141312>

"@sivavaid "His treatment is harsh, punitive and taking its toll, says Coombs.
<http://is.gd/iYYbv> "
<http://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/16297100627156992>

"@jsb (1) He's not on suicide watch & Coombs didn't say he was; (2) Combs: "he
is not allowed to have a pillow"; (3) 23/hr/day solitary"
<http://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/16249290229809153>

So possibly he was on suicide watch for a couple days, but they quickly
determined he was not suicidal and have since been taking punitive action
against him.

------
rsanheim
"He is prevented from exercising in his cell. If he attempts to do push-ups,
sit-ups, or any other form of exercise he will be forced to stop"

I think this would be the worst for me, along with the checks every 5 minutes.

------
mwg66
Land of the free.

~~~
maresca
Home of the brave.

~~~
lotusleaf1987
I'd vote for Manning for President if he ever gets out of jail. The guy
obviously has morals, integrity and a spine. I really think he's a hero. The
government should be accountable to the people.

Think about Iraq/Afghanistan if there were WikiLeaks in 2001 would Bush have
been able to get away with all the lies he told to push us into two wars? I
really doubt it.

The world is safer with WikiLeaks. WikiLeaks ripped off the clock of secrecy
and now they have to operate in public as it should be.

~~~
mwg66
It's worth remembering (I think this has been forgotten) that the original
leak Manning is suspected for is the "Collateral Murder" video.

That is very much of public interest and a prime example of what whistle
blowing is for.

~~~
lotusleaf1987
Also, if Julian Assange were say a Chinese citizen and this were happening to
the Chinese government he'd be cheered on, called a dissident, and given a
Nobel Prize.

------
spindritf
There's one thing I don't understand -- why he isn't allowed to exercise. I
thought that would actually be required from a soldier.

------
iuguy
Is this terrible treatment? Yes. Is it inhumane? Possibly. It's important to
bear in mind several factors:

* PFC Bradley Manning signed up to all of this. He will have been aware of the treatment he should expect in this situation if he was exposed.

* He confessed. Innocent until guilty in a military scenario is different to a civilian scenario. Given that he's confessed guilt, there's little to defend.

* This is a military case, not a civilian one. Things are different. You might not agree with the way he's treated but there are specific rules and those rules are in place for a reason.

~~~
danenania
So to restate, he's being held without charges and psychologically tortured,
but it's okay because he's in the military and the rules of the military say
that's okay.

Would you support a military rule that required officers to eat ten newborn
babes apiece to be eligible for promotion? Let's say it's a specific rule and
it's in place for a reason.

~~~
iuguy
> So to restate, he's being held without charges and psychologically tortured,
> but it's okay because he's in the military and the rules of the military say
> that's okay.

That's not what I'm saying. It's not psychological torture against someone
who's completely unprepared for it and never signed up for it. It's
imprisonment under the terms of a contract he willingly signed up for. He is
being charged with breaking that contract in a manner where the rules and
consequences are clear. That's the call he had to make, that's the trade-off
he had to make and that's something he must've known before he did what he
did, otherwise he's taken a massive uncalculated risk without thinking about
the potential consequences.

------
bhickey
What's the rationale for prohibiting exercise in his cell? Manning hasn't been
convicted, so now isn't the time for punitive measures.

~~~
iuguy
He's on Prevention of Injury watch in a Supermax prison. I'm not familiar with
US rules, but on suicide watch in a high security UK prison you're not usually
allowed to exercise. This is partly because there's a risk you may be able to
overpower guards, but also because you can injure yourself if you over-
exercise.

Whatever the reason in Manning's case, it'll be more to do with bureaucratic
rules than any particular desire to torture. If they wanted to torture him
they'd submit him to the treatment signed off by the Bush administration.

~~~
hugh3
There's no need to torture him. He doesn't have any information that's of any
use.

------
RexRollman
I am sorry, but having been in the military myself, I cannot feel sympathy for
a serviceman who intentionally leaked classified material. And if found guity,
he should spend the rest of his life in prison for doing so.

------
jwr
While I am in general rather critical of most methods employed by the US in
recent years, in this case the situation is quite different.

If you sign up for the US military and then as a soldier commit what may very
well be seen as an act of treason, you can't really expect great treatment.

Mind you, this is very, very different from what goes on in Guantanamo, for
which there is no justification.

------
jey
Why isn't this "prevention of injury watch" considered cruel and unusual
punishment?

------
schwit
If Manning had given the data to Al-Qaeda would we feel the same way?

------
HNer
Id love to be able to hack a solution to injustices like these.

------
scrod
Is long-term solitary confinement torture?

[http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_...](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande)

The answer: Yes, it is.

