
Librem 5 Shipping Announcement - gnufx
https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-shipping-announcement/
======
smacktoward
This is a... puzzling announcement.

It certainly reflects a departure from their previously announced shipping
window, which back in May they "adjusted" (the word they used at the time)
from Q2 2019 to Q3 (see [https://puri.sm/posts/massive-progress-exact-cpu-
selected-mi...](https://puri.sm/posts/massive-progress-exact-cpu-selected-
minor-shipping-adjustment/)). And certainly back then they weren't saying
anything about Q3 2019 being the start of a year-long iterative release cycle,
it was just that the product would ship in Q3 2019, full stop.

A cynical interpretation: it sounds like all the batches until "Batch
Evergreen" (due Q2 2020) will be of less-than-general-release quality, with
each batch getting a bit closer to what the average person would consider a
finished product until Evergreen reaches that mark.

So one reading of this announcement would be that release of the actual,
finished Librem 5 product has now slipped again, this time to mid-2020 -- but
they didn't want to just come out and, you know, _say_ that. So instead
they've created this "iterative release schedule" so they can say they're
shipping _something_ in Q3 2019, even though the actual _thing_ they'll be
shipping then isn't going to even be close to what the average person would
consider a finished, release-quality product ("loose fit, varying alignment,
unfinished switch caps... basic web browsing, early power management").

I like Purism and am generally supportive of what they've been trying to do
with this device. But this persistent pattern of (1) slipping deadlines and
then (2) announcing that the deadline has slipped in ways that seem calculated
to obscure that fact is really troubling.

Missing deadlines, by itself, isn't that big a deal on a project like this --
they're trying to do something big and unique, it's understandable if that
takes longer than expected. But if you're going to miss a deadline, I'd rather
you just say you missed it and give updated guidance, rather than trying to
convince me that isn't what actually happened. It just leaves a bad taste in
my mouth.

~~~
Vinnl
I guess it might be necessary for marketing reasons, but I'd prefer if they'd
just _not_ announce deadlines. You know you're not going to make them, these
things always slip, again and again.

I also do not really expect them to be "what the average person would consider
a finished product" by Evergreen either. As far as I understand it, this is
really aimed at power users and enthusiasts willing to suffer some pain for
the ability to tinker and the feeling of control over your device. Which is
great, but they might've been a bit clearer on that.

But ah well, I suppose mistakes are inevitable, and there'll be many more -
it's a young company.

~~~
smacktoward
Even for enthusiasts, who I agree can be willing to forgive a lot of fit-and-
finish type issues, the first couple of batches seem really underwhelming.

I've never seen any statement from them that the current state of the software
for the device is at the level of "basic web browsing, early power
management," for instance. That sounds like an early alpha at best.

Software issues are less concerning, though, since those can always be
fixed/improved with updates. Accepting alpha quality _hardware_ if you're in
an early batch seems like a bigger deal. If you're in an early batch and get a
hand-assembled box with parts rattling around inside, is that just what you're
stuck with forever? When all the previous guidance was "this thing you paid
for will ship in Q3 2019," why do you now have to make a choice between
accepting an unfinished device now or getting a finished device sometime next
year? I can see how offering that choice benefits Purism, but I can't see how
it benefits the Purism customer.

A lot of this just boils down to expectations management, which Purism hasn't
been great at.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
And it sounds like most of the hardware in early batches is exterior hardware
that won't be ready, so I almost wonder if it could be upgradeable later
(perhaps for free/cheap?) if the internal hardware is all there. But they
don't really clarify whether or not that will be the case.

~~~
seba_dos1
On Matrix it was mentioned that a FAQ that answers questions like that is
coming.

~~~
jethro_tell
Probably, should have seen this coming and had that ready with today's
announcement. I actually find this concerning because it's a glimpse at the
bubble they must be in if they thought this announcement would stand on it's
own, or if they thought that it would be welcomed with applause.

------
negative_zero
I think there is an unfair amount of negativity in here and would like to
offer an insiders perspective:

I have worked 11 years in product development in various roles (Hardware,
Test, Production, Firmware and Mechanical often simultaneously). I can
confidently tell you that this is how product development is in the real world
(even amongst the big players). This schedule puri.sm publised is something
you would never normally see, but I guarantee you exists for every product.

This is why, even though I am a lover of technology, I am _not_ an early
adopter. I normally buy a product when it has been on the market for 6-12
months as, in my expirience at least, you are on about revision 3-5 by then.
The last minute changes for compliance are no longer done by hand, the first
major issues from the field are fixed, mechanical tools are stable etc.

I know this place is majority software engineers so here's an analogy I'm sure
many can relate to: How often have you shipped software to a customer that is
beta? Or even alpha? Product development is no different :)

~~~
sulkie
The expressed negativity is not directed towards hardware development process,
rather towards what ended up being insincere promises the team gave about the
state of the product that would be shipping in Q3 2019.

~~~
negative_zero
Oh I understand that. I was just trying to communicate that: their latest
promise was to start shipping final hardware to people Q3 2019 and Bach Aspen
is exactly that.

I actually give them kudos for allowing people to choose what batch they
receive. I specifically did not pre-order because I don't want an early batch
of hardware of any product. Had I know I would get a choice I would have pre-
ordered.

~~~
ncmncm
You still can.

------
letstrynvm
Wish them all the best, but I tried the latest firmwate image on my dev kit
last week and although there's plenty of progress, many things are not there,
at least on that image + platform combination.

No lte, no wifi, browser scrolls at ~10fps, browser crashes, display has some
hw jittering if you look closely.

I guess some of these are solved on the production hw (they use a different
lte module) but still, only consider it if you have a pain threshold or have
booked to go into hypersleep for 18 mo.

~~~
seba_dos1
But LTE and WiFi work just fine on my devkit?

~~~
letstrynvm
What did you do to get them working? I flashed the latest image and no sign of
them, even with a valid SIM.

~~~
seba_dos1
The UI is being reworked right now to better fit the screen, but it's
generally there in GNOME Settings (latest changes broke the password field and
I think it's not restored yet, but you can fill it in by editing
NetworkManager's config anyway). For LTE you just have to set the correct APN.
I've just connected to the internet with LTE to test it and it worked; and I'm
using WiFi connection daily.

Make sure your kill switches actually turn WiFi and LTE on. Also, the modem is
generally way more stable when used with battery inserted, as USB might not be
able to supply enough current.

~~~
ncmncm
Turning on power switches to the chips is pretty important!

It gives a hint about how manufacturing is, that the switch tops come out so
late.

------
tcd
One of my concerns about this is fragmentation. They've essentially announced
6 different phones released over a staggered time period.

Will all batches get updates for the same duration? Will they all get same day
software releases? How about support? Will there be subtle differences that
cause headaches? If you opt for one revision over another and that has issues,
what's the process going to be to handle that case?

Rather than just having a single shipping device with a fixed design they're
going to incrementally change it, and I fear it's going to be an absolute
disaster.

I think if you visit this comment in exactly a year's time I'll probably be
right, and it'd hardly be a surprise.

I absolutely agree with smacktoward, they're doing this to hide the fact
they're simply not ready, but instead opening a can of worms that could
devastate the entire project.

Not a fan of this, you can only hope this is the right move forward.

~~~
seba_dos1
Most phones are incrementally changed like that (aside of the case maybe,
that's unusual), it's just usually not announced publicly. Aside of the v2 at
the end of the schedule, this is all about multiple batches of a single model
(and even v2 probably won't have a separate software distribution - I would
expect just a different bootloader to flash).

~~~
tcd
That still doesn't answer the question of the fact there _will_ be different
models and how that affects software support.

For example, Chestnut says: "improved power management", will all previous
models get that?

In Birch it says "Next run of board", are there changes that change the
software in any way?

Evergreen is the "LTS" release, do the others not get "LTS"?

In Q4 2020 there's a new CPU, does that affect drivers or software in any way?
Will they provide software updates for all devices for a number of years?

You'd hope opting for Model 1 2019 doesn't punish you but I can't see how they
have the resources for testing every single model for every single software
release.

It's not a good idea in the long run. Not even Google would do something like
that and nor should a smaller company, it's idiotic.

~~~
seba_dos1
> That still doesn't answer the question of the fact there _will_ be different
> models and how that affects software support.

There will be different revisions, not models. It doesn't affect software
support.

> For example, Chestnut says: "improved power management", will all previous
> models get that?

Yes (unless there's some serious hardware bug fixed in Chestnut, which is
unlikely).

> In Birch it says "Next run of board", are there changes that change the
> software in any way?

No.

> Evergreen is the "LTS" release, do the others not get "LTS"?

You just apt-get upgrade to LTS. It's listed in the milestone because, well,
it's not going to arrive before that.

> In Q4 2020 there's a new CPU, does that affect drivers or software in any
> way?

Unknown at this point, but even if yes, then today with kernel device trees it
shouldn't be any issue.

> Will they provide software updates for all devices for a number of years?

This software is made to work on GNU/Linux. You can already run it on other
devices, even your laptop. Just look at GTA04 - it's also kept close to
mainline and in turn, it's still being supported.

> Not even Google would do something like that and nor should a smaller
> company

Google does something like that. Apple does as well. There are multiple
hardware revisions of single iPhone models, some even include as big changes
as different LTE modules.

------
RandomBacon
I'm tempted to get the earliest batch I can, and then purchase a second phone
for v2.

I'm a little disapointed the process hasn't been as smooth as I would have
hoped, however I feel that is completely offset by the new type of product
we're getting.

~~~
fractalf
I was thinking just the same! :) My main reason for buying this phone (which I
have) is to support this movement. To support a hope that the phone platform
(which arguably will grow grow grow to be the main future platform) can have a
proper FOSS platform. I HATE that all I can choose from is iOS (apple) and
Android (Google). Just imagine where the world would be without Linux.

------
Vinnl
Some pictures (/mock-ups?) here:
[https://social.librem.one/@purism/102740815257018934](https://social.librem.one/@purism/102740815257018934)

~~~
saagarjha
Looks a bit chunky…does anyone have a good side view shot?

~~~
kd3
Looks chunky indeed but I like it. Tired of the fucking thin and light phones
everyone else is selling that easily want to slip out of my hand. I hope this
has a heavy and metal feel to it.

~~~
stronglikedan
For those of us suffering from Noassatall, who cannot comfortably carry
anything in our back pockets, a thin phone fits nicely in the same front
pocket as a wallet, without getting scratched up by the keys in the other
front pocket. I too would like a heavy phone, but I think it could be thin
_and_ heavy if made from the right metal, instead of glass and plastic.

~~~
aidenn0
I carried a palm pre in my front pocket 10 years ago, it was probably thicker
than this phone (though also much smaller diagonally).

~~~
stronglikedan
That, and my Treos before it, went in my pocket with the keys, but that was
the last one to do so. They didn't build it as tough as the Treos, so it
didn't last long.

------
kungito
I guess this is both a way for them to pressure themselves to finally release
no matter the cost because with a thing like this I believe they could go for
years without considering it "ready ready". They have way less resources than
other big corps when they entered the business. Also I guess this will provide
many new testers to make the repro-identify-fix loop.

------
bhhaskin
I am very excited for this phone, but I am not sure about this approach. I
think it will cause a lot of people to wait for the v2 release.

~~~
katmannthree
As someone who placed their order recently, I am totally fine with that if it
opens up the possibility of people who ordered late to get their hands on one
sooner. I don't mind having to tweak component alignment and update via the
terminal (and maybe update keycaps?).

I think people who are afraid of effectively being beta testers are going to
have a tough time with a full-on linux phone whether they get one now or after
another year of development.

~~~
bhhaskin
I am perfectly fine tweaking software, but getting an unfinished hardware
build is pretty hard to swallow for the price. This isn't a dev build either,
it is supposed to be the final end product. To me it sounds like they are
trying to release an unfinished product so they don't miss their ship date
again. I would much rather have the ship date pushed out and get the finalize
hardware.

~~~
katmannthree
>I would much rather have the ship date pushed out and get the finalize
hardware.

Then isn't this the best of both worlds since they give you exactly that
option?

------
Lex-2008
I find it amusing how perfectly they align with PinePhone[1] - first batch in
September (with some drawbacks), final product Q2 2020, both blog posts
released on Sept 5th.

[1]: [https://www.pine64.org/2019/09/05/september-update-the-
pinep...](https://www.pine64.org/2019/09/05/september-update-the-pinephone-is-
real-shipping-soon/)

------
squiggleblaz
So much negative in here! I mean, anyone who thought these were going to hit
the market like an iPhone was always in for a rough surprise. We're talking
small companies trying to run in a marketplace almost exclusively occupied by
mega multinationals.

I'm really excited to see not just one but potentially two open phones around
the corner. I really wish I wasn't about to move overseas so I could buy one
(more likely, both), but as soon as I know where I'm living I will!

------
m0zg
Protip: when putting out a shipping announcement, put some product shots
somewhere near the top. Attention spans on the Internet being what they are,
I'm not reading three screenfuls of text to find out what it is you're
shipping.

------
tdewitt
Well, I'm out. This is disappointing and is starting to have a pretty bad
vapor smell. I shelled out the change for a presale but thevpruce difference
isn't worth it for unfinished hardware. I'll check back in for v2 but for now
I'm thinking a dumb phone will be the way to go. I with them all the best and
appreciate the announcement but with all the delays and now a timeline showing
just how far from a finished product they are, my confidence is low.

~~~
mike-cardwell
"vapor" ... they just said they're shipping the first phones in 19 days...

~~~
tdewitt
I'll clarify:

The batch of phones going out in 19 days is not a finished product. It's
expected to be loose fitting, not have endcaps on the switches, not have
properly functioning power management and updates have to be done using a
terminal. That's beta hardware, at best.

The next few iterations are improvements on the beta hardware but still not
yet a finished product until Evergreen. That speculatively Q2 2020 but they've
been off by miles with all the previous delivery dates so I won't hold my
breath. Until that hardware comes out, which is what a consumer grade product
should be, the only hardware delivered will be various levels of beta/release
candidate.

By then, you might as well wait a few months for the hardware refresh. I
appreciate the goal and the work done and if the hardware was polished and all
the pain points were software, I'd be singing a different tune. Software can
be fixed after the fact but poor fit and finish on hardware is forever. (And
I've been Linux-as-a-desktop since the latter half of the 90s, so I can take a
lot of pain. I'm all in on a Linux phone but I'll go buy a dumb phone while I
wait for v2.)

------
mattl
I fear this is going to be OpenMoko all over again.

------
buzzert
Funny coincidence (?) naming the first batch Aspen, which was the code name
for iPhone OS 1.0.

~~~
saagarjha
Unfortunately it looks like they picked Aspen, the wood, rather than Aspen,
the ski resort. (Also, wasn't iPhone OS 1.0 code-named Alpine?)

~~~
katmannthree
Iirc Alpine was the default root password on early versions of iOS

~~~
saagarjha
"alpine" is actually the current password for root (and mobile) on iOS. The
earliest versions of iOS used "dottie" as the password, AFAIK.

------
teddyh
> _And we are compliant with, and submitting for, the “Respects Your Freedom”
> certification from the Free Software Foundation._

This is huge. Let’s see if they get certified.

------
balaksakrionon
does the contacts app support carddav?

I am thinking birch or chestnut sounds fun

~~~
seba_dos1
It's just GNOME Contacts. Yes, it does.

