
Judge rules that Amazon isn't liable for damages caused by a hoverboard it sold - abduhl
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/02/amazon-not-liable-for-exploding-hoverboard-marketplace-argument-wins.html
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crazygringo
Forget about the main focus of the article... (I would prefer liability to lie
with the manufacturer, no store online or offline is equipped to expertly and
independently analyze and judge the safety of all the things they sell, but
whatever.)

But how on earth can Amazon sell something and then lose track of the
merchant, _especially_ a foreign one? There seem to be _so many_ necessary
guarantees this breaks, not just product liability but obeying import/export
laws, handling taxes, financial regulations preventing money laundering, and
so on.

How is it legal for an American company to sell, or even _list_ foreign
products to American consumers where the "manufacturer is unknown"? Is there
some kind of loophole in the laws?

~~~
awat
That was my first takeaway too. It’s one of the biggie no-no’s in banking to
not know the customer. I’m at a loss on why that would be ok here.

I’m also fine with the manufacturer taking the liability but for the retailer
to say we don’t know, is at best incompetence and at worst a middle finger to
the US consumer.

~~~
dd36
The manufacturer should have to be required to maintain liability insurance
with a claims process. If Amazon doesn’t enforce that standard, it should have
to stand in.

~~~
CamelCaseName
They do require it:

[https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/help.html?itemID=20...](https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/help.html?itemID=200386300)

However, they do not enforce it (IME) until you break $10K/mo

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mikeash
Sounds like there needs to be a “know your merchant” law. It makes sense to me
that Amazon might not be liable, but it makes no sense at all that people
can’t get in touch with the actual seller.

~~~
josephh
1\. A seller rents some storage space from a landlord to store the products he
wants to sell 2\. He uses a cloud provider to set up his website for customers
to shop 3\. He also uses a payment processor to process customers' orders 4\.
He then uses a shipper to ship them

In this case, should the landlord/cloud provider/payment processor/shipper be
liable for defective products that the seller sells? There's a plethora of
companies that play one or more aforementioned role(s), and it so happens that
Amazon assumes all of them.

~~~
mikeash
Sorry, you probably caught my post before I added the "not" I managed to miss
the first time around. I meant to say that I see why Amazon should _not_ be
liable, but they should at least be able to get you to the right people.

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guelo
I'm so done with Amazon, it's all shady Chinese companies selling counterfeits
and knockoffs. I was blown away when I bought fake Dove soap the other day in
perfect looking packaging. It's impossible to trust anything on there.

~~~
astura
What gave it away that the soap was a knockoff? I can't say I'd know how to
identify counterfeit soap other than maybe extremely low quality packaging.

~~~
guelo
I happened to have the same soap bought at a Walgreens to compare it with. It
smelled much worse, an unknown chemically smell, and it was about 30 percent
smaller, though it still had the characteristic Dove oval shape.

~~~
jokh
Interesting. Were you able to get it refunded?

~~~
guelo
Not worth it.

~~~
azinman2
You should, or at least report it. That’s how it continues.

~~~
throwaway59928
Reporting doesn’t work. I reported a counterfeit item and amazon apologized
and refunded the money and promised to go after the seller. In the end they
removed all of the seller’s negative feedback since it was “fulfilled by
amazon”. What a joke.

~~~
throwaway59229
Is this something that would be worth reporting/forwarding to the
manufacturers of the soap (Johnson and Johnson?). It seems that they would
have a stake in preventing counterfeits of their products being sold and
Amazon might be less willing to blow off complaints that come from the legal
team of a multinational.

If you still have the counterfeit item and a copy of the correspondence
between yourself and Amazon, it might be worth forwarding...

Edit: I realise I have responded to the wrong person. The point still stands,
however.

~~~
astura
The already know...

What are they going to do?

Sue Amazon? All legal precedents indicate Amazon will win

Sue the fly-by-night Chinese company? How?

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master-litty
Rightfully so, how can this be seen any other way? It's the manufacturer's
responsibility to make a product that doesn't burn down your house.

~~~
buckminster
The consumer has no contract with the manufacturer. It is the vendor's
responsibility. Of course, the vendor can sue the manufacturer but that's a
separate thing.

However, Amazon is successfully arguing that they are not the vendor. The
vendor is a third party using Amazon's platform.

Edit: that said, I think this needs to change.

~~~
c2h5oh
Following the same logic eBay would be liable for anything anyone sells on it.
And Etsy too.

Expanding even further next in the line would be Craigslist, with the defense
hinging on argument they don't facilitate payments like etsy, amazon or ebay.

So where do we draw the line?

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yardie
Let’s keep it simple. Whoever takes the money is the vendor. Amazon lists it,
amazon fulfills it, and they get paid for it. Sounds like the vendor to me.

~~~
Fjolsvith
Except Amazon doesn’t list it. The vendor does.

~~~
acct1771
...except the listings that are "Fulfilled by Amazon"...no?

~~~
Fjolsvith
Amazon doesn't add the items to their inventory. Someone who has one to sell
(a VENDOR) lists the item for sale with Amazon. If it is "Fulfilled by
Amazon", that just means that the vendor sent the item to one of Amazon's
warehouse, and then Amazon send the item to the buyer after the sale.

If it isn't "Fulfilled by Amazon", when the item is sold, the vendor ships the
item directly to the customer.

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mikestew
I’ll be curious to see what happens when Amazon sells a fake Apple iPhone
charger, which subsequently burns a house down. The difference here is that
Amazon advertised it as Apple brand. Or is that going to be on the shoulders
of the wholesaler^W”seller”, too?

~~~
takeda
I would assume that all iPhone chargers on Amazon are fake. Would Apple be ok
selling their products through Amazon?

~~~
scarface74
I know that all "Apple" wired headphones on Amazon are fake. The AirPods are
probably genuine.

~~~
ikeboy
I know this not to be the case. Many of them are but there is some legitimate
inventory there, I know several people in the industry.

~~~
scarface74
I just searched on Amazon for "Apple headphones". On at least the first page,
all of the reviews stated they were fake.

Can you find a link for genuine Apple headphones from Amazon?

~~~
ikeboy
The first link has almost 11 thousand reviews and currently 34 sellers. 44% of
those reviews are 5 star. 34% are 1 star.

It is certainly the case that some of those sellers are selling fakes. It is
also likely that some are selling authentic products.

~~~
scarface74
This is the first link

[https://www.amazon.com/Apple-MD827LL-EarPods-Remote-
Mic/dp/B...](https://www.amazon.com/Apple-MD827LL-EarPods-Remote-
Mic/dp/B0097BEG1C)

The Q and A section and many of the reviews are saying that they are fake.

They are $13.99. The real Apple headphones are $29.99

[https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MNHF2AM/A/earpods-
with-35...](https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MNHF2AM/A/earpods-with-35-mm-
headphone-plug)

Apple never sells anything at wholesale at over a 50% discount. Where would a
third party company be getting new Apple headphones from where they could sell
them profitably at $13.99?

~~~
ikeboy
Carrier auctions, mostly.

Anyway, if many of the units sold are fake and some are real, you'd expect a
large number of reviews both ways, which is what you can see.

~~~
scarface74
Some wouldn't know they were fake and others wouldn't care.

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VectorLock
Couldn't Walmart also say they're just a marketplace and abdicate
responsibility the same way Amazon did?

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hiisukun
I understand that making the shop rather than the manufacturer liable for such
a thing would prima facie seem strange.

But since amazon profited from the sale, where I'm from (Australia) they might
need to show they weren't recklessly indifferent to the safety standards of
the manufacturers they stock - especially this one, but also as a policy in
general.

Perhaps there is some useful question here, seeing the number of comments
regarding fake, counterfeit or unsafe products. Might these outcomes be
"reasonably foreseeable"? Again, where I'm from this could cause Amazon some
issues - I only hope other legal systems have similar principles.

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vinceguidry
This is just going to make me more and more wary of buying through Amazon.
Good companies aren't afraid of accountability.

~~~
takeda
I learned that a friend was (maybe still is) selling vitamins and probiotics
through Amazon. I wasn't able to learn who was producing it only knew that it
was made in US and most likey a neighbor.

He also was selling vitamin K, when asked my doctor about she said she would
recommend not to take it, and the daily dose suggested is typically prescribed
and usually taken one time.

That seriously made me cautious about it, literally anyone can start selling
on Amazon and there is not easy way to figure out where things come from.

~~~
scarface74
Well seeing that most experts think that taking vitamins and are worthless
anyway, it wouldn't really matter if they were fake....

[https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-
supplements/news/20131216...](https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-
supplements/news/20131216/experts-dont-waste-your-money-on-multivitamins)

I'm not convinced that taking probiotics isn't junk science.

~~~
astura
It would matter if they contained unlisted ingredients that were allergens or
worse, toxic. It would also matter to someone like me - I take vitamins
because of measured vitamin deficiency that I wasn't able to correct with diet
alone. If my vitamins did not contain vitamins I would start to have
deficiency symptoms again.

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jacob019
Since a year or more Amazon is tough on vendors in regards to safety issues.
More products require regulatory approval and a single product review
mentioning safety problems can get a product pulled.

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xstartup
If Amazon can profit off a listing then why shouldn't it be held liable for
the damage caused due to the listing? If Amazon has already put up an
agreement which frees them from liability then it sounds like, "Ok, I'll be
with you in your good time but I'll walk away as soon as you have a
misfortune" like an unfaithful life partner.

Of course, I know this is by design. But is it ethical?

~~~
GhostVII
Shouldn't the liability be placed on the company actually selling the product
through amazon? Amazon is a marketplace, not a manufacturer, in most cases I
think

~~~
xstartup
Amazon does profit off the listing is my assertion. Without Amazon, listing's
ability to damage at scale is limited. Can't we argue that it is one of the
partners in crime?

~~~
GhostVII
Amazon profits off of it, but so do the shipping companies and payment
processors that helped sell the product and increase its sales. I don't think
a platform that provides a service should be responsible for those that use
the service, unless they explicitly claim responsiblity by saying they
guarantee quality of their merchants or something. If amazon is responsible
for the damage caused by their products, than so are places like Craigslist
and eBay.

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nimish
Surprised Amazon even allows you to sue it, what with mandatory arbitration
being all the rage.

Welcome to America. Corporate power rules.

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crazybit
It makes sense for Amazon to not be liable for damages caused by the
manufacturer (should eBay be liable for everything sold on its platform?).

But doesn't it also make sense for Amazon to be liable for allowing 3rd
parties to sell counterfeit or not-as-advertised items?

Also, how far does this go? Where is the line crossed?

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ada1981
I heard an argument once that said basically almost all tech companies are
just profiting off the arbitrage between the developed and the developing
world.

Cheap goods make in China are facilitated by Amazon, and all media and content
companies are basically just advertising for those products.

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dd36
I wonder how this will apply to solar glasses. Amazon has to require standards
and insurance from sellers.

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mnm1
By this reasoning no merchant is ever liable for any of their products because
they all come from third parties. Tablet blows up? Don't blame Samsung or
Apple, blame the supplier in China. This is all part of the trend over the
last few decades of removing any accountability, responsibility, or liability
big companies might have towards people so they can profit more and never be
held responsible for their actions. This also follows the same trend in
government itself where public officials and servants themselves are no longer
held responsible for their actions even when their actions cause the loss of
human lives. In a culture that loves nothing more than to blame others and
never accept blame, this leads to government and companies that respond to no
one, are not regulated or overseen by anyone, and eventually commit atrocities
including maiming and murdering people for profit and advancement. We really
should start to think as a society about holding these entities responsible
for their reprehensible actions. Otherwise what is the message we give as a
society? That it's ok to hurt and kill others as long as you do it as part or
a company or government. Is that the type of society we really want to be?

