
Where Boeing’s 737 Max Planes Go When They’re Grounded - pseudolus
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-boeing-737-max-map-where-planes-went-after-grounded/
======
Animats
A fix is being flight-tested.[1] The authority of the auto trim adjustment
system is being limited. All planes that don't have it already will get the
"AoA Disagree" detection, and a disagree will lock out automatic trim
adjustment. Pilots will get more training on handling the aircraft with that
system inoperative.

How bad is the handling with that system inoperative? The need for this came
from adding bigger engines to a small airframe, which required putting them
too far forward so they'd clear the ground.

[1] [https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-plans-fixes-to-
make-737-...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-plans-fixes-to-make-737-max-
stall-prevention-feature-easier-for-pilots-to-control-11553373777)

~~~
Scoundreller
> All planes that don't have it already will get the "AoA Disagree" detection

It makes me wonder... if all planes had 2 Angle of Attack sensors, why was the
disagree indication an extra option?

Was it almost pure price discrimination on the part of Boeing? A $4
light/buzzer for equipment, wiring and firmware already present, but only
wired in for clients willing to pay an extra $10k per plane for the safe
version?

~~~
londons_explore
I imagine after the design of the 737 Max was completed, some customers
requested that feature, and Boeing said "For just $100k extra, we'll design
and build it for you". They then set an engineer to build and test the
feature, probably costing nearly $100k. That airline then got the feature
they'd paid extra for, and other airlines/groups of airlines didn't get it
because it isn't officially part of the design.

~~~
jacquesm
Any proof for this interesting theory?

~~~
megablast
I imagine not.

------
joezydeco
There are 5 Southwest MAX8s parked at Chicago Midway (MDW). I took this photo
of them just the other day:

[https://imgur.com/a/NRUUdLE](https://imgur.com/a/NRUUdLE)

~~~
inferiorhuman
Southwest is in the process of moving all of its MAX8s to the Victorville, the
airplane graveyard in the desert. I doubt they'll scrap them but it smacks of
long-term parking.

~~~
jonknee
> I doubt they'll scrap them but it smacks of long-term parking.

Oh please, they're not being scrapped. But a working airport is not a proper
place to store large jets.

~~~
inferiorhuman
_Oh please, they 're not being scrapped. _

Which is what I said.

 _But a working airport is not a proper place to store large jets._

Short-term it's fine. If the expectation is that the MAX will be allowed to
fly in a few weeks it makes sense to keep the airplanes at strategically
chosen airports. This'll make it easier to bring them back into service. If
the assumption is that the MAX will be grounded for a long period of time it
makes more sense to stash them at a graveyard like Victorville.

~~~
hitekker
The weird thing is that the GP quoted your comment that the planes won’t be
scraped, and then he tried to one-up you... by agreeing that the planes won’t
be scrapped.

Utterly bizarre.

------
Stratoscope
Even if you're not interested in the story itself, this is worth a quick look
just to see the way they present the information. It's very nicely done.

(Scroll down to see the graphics.)

~~~
tinbad
Totally. Reminded me of that addictive flying game where you have to land
airplanes when the first iPhone just came out.

~~~
captn3m0
This one:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Control_(video_game)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Control_\(video_game\))
?

~~~
ListeningPie
Successful small studio, bought by EA, and never heard from again.

~~~
stordoff
They were merged into Firemonkeys Studio, and are still a going concern (their
last three games - Real Racing 3, The Sims Freeplay, and Need for Speed: No
Limits - are still getting updates).

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firemonkeys_Studios](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firemonkeys_Studios)

------
ohashi
That is a beautiful data visualization. I'd love to see more articles with
that level of quality

------
supernova87a
6 Southwest planes have gone to storage at VCV:
[https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KVCV/arrivals](https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KVCV/arrivals)

~~~
dingaling
KVCV, to be pedantic. Flightplans are filed with ICAO codes.

Without any passengers or baggage the IATA code VCV would not have been used
at any point of their flights.

------
joering2
If you want to see the one still flying:
[https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/B38M](https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/B38M)

~~~
teh_klev
That'll be a Boeing test flight. Their Max's will likely be up and down all
the time.

~~~
tzs
Well, the one shown up near Seattle is a Boeing test flight.

I have my doubts about the other 13 it currentlu shows around the world,
especially the ones whose flight plan calls for landing far from where they
start, like the Norweigian Air flight from Dublin, Ireland to New York, or the
Globus one on the way from Russia to Hong Kong.

What's going on here? Airlines still working on getting their grounded planes
to where they want them to sit things out?

Looks like by far the most of them are Southwest, flying from a variety of
airports (Baltimore, Los Angeles, Oakland, San Jose, Chicago), which is what
one would expect for a "move planes to storage" operation, but the
destinations are also all over the map, too (Victorville, Burbank,
Indianapolis, Houston, Dallas, St. Louis, Denver). Stashing a few at each of
their smaller airports?

~~~
xvf22
It's a data problem on flightaware. Check swa2738 on flightaware [0] and then
check on flightradar24 [1]. It's being flown by n8648a which is not a max.

[0]
[https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA2738/history/20190324...](https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA2738/history/20190324/1925Z/KSTL/KOAK)

[1]
[https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/wn2738](https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/wn2738)

------
exabrial
I _highly_ recommend everyone suggestion engineering solutions to watch this
video from an actual pilot performing a runaway stabilizer procedure in a 737
simulator.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xixM_cwSLcQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xixM_cwSLcQ)

What happened is a series of failures; this video frames it perfectly.

------
psKama
I wonder if the pilots had the right to refuse to fly them after the official
announcement was made. Regardless of the criticality of the flaw, there is one
flaw causing the planes to crash and even one flight is 1 more than you should
fly with them.

~~~
jhayward
Every pilot has an absolute right, and responsibility, to refuse any aircraft
they deem "not safe for flight in all weather and conditions". Period.

Of course, you may have a long and uncomfortable conversation with your chief
pilot regarding the nature and quality of your judgement, but every single
pilot is supposed to make an informed and independent evaluation of each
aircraft before every flight.

------
doggydogs94
The 737 Max saga reminds me of the hazards of flying on third world carriers.

~~~
quink
The only difference between the North American carriers and the overseas ones
is that they sprung for the option that tells them that the MCAS is about to
point the nose at the ground hard by displaying a warning in relatively small
writing on a screen somewhere near the middle.

Apart from that, which may not have made much difference there is no overall
difference in terms of safety or training that would have prevented the
Ethiopian crash.

Ethiopian is a state-of-the-art operation with a modern fleet. Lion Air is a
bit more questionable, but their 737 crash appears to have nothing specific to
that airline or being based in Indonesia.

You may have other evidence of hazards, so might I. But the 737 MAX saga isn’t
it.

------
turtlegrids
I feel like there could be a good amount of hollywood usage of these idling
planes to make some thrilling media for us to consume.

~~~
quink
There would be many, many more not that old aircraft out there in storage that
will be much, much cheaper to organise and insure a film shoot for.

------
trhway
Now that everybody, even non-pilots on HN like me, know how to turn MCAS off,
it doesn't really make sense to keep them grounded.

~~~
sokoloff
Everyone who earned a type rating to fly 737s also knew how to turn it off, by
following the non-normal (aka "emergency") checklist memory items for
stabilizer runaway.

It is shocking to me that the second crash happened, if they both turn out to
be MCAS and stab trim sourced. How could you step into the cockpit of a
737-Max that day and _not know_ about the MCAS issue and be primed to respond
according to the checklist?

I have to add that I'd be happy to put myself or my family onto a 737-Max
flown by a US-flag carrier (Southwest, American, United [Delta doesn't fly the
-Max]), as I believe there's a significant variance in crew training
worldwide.

~~~
jrockway
Bad sensor data was represented as accurate sensor data. It is easy to solve
some problem you know is occurring, it is hard to solve a problem where
something weird happens and the data in front of you is telling you that what
you think is happening is not what is happening. ("I think we're stalling."
"Nah, the sensor that directly measures that says we're not." "Hmm, what else
could it be? Get me the checklist" _crash_ )

It shocks me that the redundant angle of attack sensor and the "disagree"
light is not standard equipment. Who is buying multi-million dollar airplanes
and cares about the cost of an angle of attack sensor and a lamp? Not people
that care about safety, that's for sure. I know the airline industry loves
nickel-and-diming their customers, but safety equipment is a little more
important than priority boarding and a checked bag. It is shameful that Boeing
adopted that business model.

More on angle of attack sensors: [https://www.flightliteracy.com/angle-of-
attack-indicators/](https://www.flightliteracy.com/angle-of-attack-
indicators/). If you fly GA, you should get one. Having a readout of the
flight energy you have available is one of the greatest safety upgrades you
can make.

~~~
sokoloff
Agreed on the value of AoA; it’s a toss-up whether we’ll be upgrading in the
next couple years. Not much sense in adding it to a plane we might be selling
shortly as it doesn’t bring much increase in resale. Next airplane is likely
to have it as OE.

