
Ask HN: Working in Sweden? - throwy667
Hi HN! 
this is a throwaway because job hunting reasons.<p>Im from EU and currently looking for a new job. I&#x27;ve reading good things about working in Sweden as Stockholm is rising as a tech hub.<p>I&#x27;ve lined up some interviews (software engineering) and I&#x27;d like to know how is like to work and live there.<p>Anything from salary, quality of life, job market or things I should be aware before jumping.<p>Anyone working in Sweden?
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jseban
Also a native swede, worked as a software developer in Stockholm for 6 years.

Outdoors, yes, and especially the closeness to the sea and ocean. If you like
boating or kayaking this is a huge plus, and you can also rent boats if you
don't want to own one.

Housing market is crazy, you definitely have to buy an apartment and be
willing to make a big investment in this, renting is basically not an option.
The city also gets suburban and quiet very quickly as you move away from the
inner parts, so if you want to live in a lively neighbourhood it's going to
cost a lot.

Lifestyle is quite wholesome, punctuated and routine, and suits sporty people
very well. On the social side swedes are reserved and private and the
financial and social pressure to start a family is quite high.

Nightlife is a bit on the snobby and expensive side, with fancy restaurants
and champagne.

The winter is dreadfully long and dark, and the summer is gorgeous. Many
people go to Thailand in the winter and enjoy the beautiful archipelago
outside Stockholm in the summer.

If you are a sporty person who enjoys boating, and/or wants to start a family,
go for it. If you are looking for a fun place to stay for a shorter time and
want to have a spontaneous social life, I wouldn't recommend it.

~~~
SmellTheGlove
Wow, you could find+replace Sweden for Maine in that and it would still be
pretty accurate. I live in Maine and Sweden sounds awesome!

Our housing market itself isn't crazy, but the rental market is so tight that
you're better off buying. Vacancy rates are so low that finding a decent
rental is hard, and it's not inexpensive.

------
drakonka
You have gotten good feedback on what it's like to live in Stockholm here
already.

I moved here four years ago from Australia. The worst part about relocating
here is finding housing. We ended up just buying our own apartment and that
ended up being much cheaper and less stressful than continuing to rent. Other
than that for me personally there hasn't been much to complain about. People
tend to regard Stockholm as an expensive city. Coming from Western Australia I
didn't feel that much of a difference. My salary isn't huge, but make enough
after the hefty taxes to have spending money left over. Public infrastructure
seems great, it is safe, bike paths everywhere. People _are_ reserved yes, but
there are many Meetup groups where you can socialize. The nature is beautiful,
and how close it is to more urban areas is a big plus. Very pet-friendly -
pets are allowed on subways, in many stores, etc (although the level of
veterinary care and approach here varies, but I could write an entire separate
novel on that).

I would ask your potential employer if they can help line up housing for you
for some time after you move - larger companies often help with that and have
their own contacts.

Also the games industry is booming here. I don't know what it's like compared
to your current EU country, maybe quite similar. But after having lived in
Ukraine, the U.S., and Australia Sweden is definitely my favorite.

------
hankmander
Stockholm native working as a dev for 5+ years here. I'll just add the only
two things I see missing from previous posts:

You won't make any friends among the natives. We'll have a beer with you after
work but don't expect anything serious. None of my friends have foreign
friends. Can't really say why this happens though. We are pretty reserved.

Nightlife is not snobbish as somebody else said. There is the whole range from
dive bars to upscale to any kind of nightclub you can think of. It's similar
to most bigger western cities. Also, I've noticed the variety and quality of
restaurants are outstanding in Stockholm when comparing to most places I've
been.

~~~
wingerlang
> You won't make any friends among the natives. We'll have a beer with you
> after work but don't expect anything serious. None of my friends have
> foreign friends. Can't really say why this happens though. We are pretty
> reserved.

I think I want to chime in here that this makes it sound like some form of
xenophobia. I suppose this -is- prelevant in Sweden (especially for the last
few years with the rise of Sverigedemokraterna), but I would also assume that
in this scenario, it has more to do with the fact that working people are in
their mid 20s and up and their social circles are quite knit together already.
Combining this with the reserved nature of Swedes (as you say) is not the best
combination for getting "new friends" more than (as you say, again) beers
after work.

For some perspective though, I am Swedish but I work abroad. Even when there
have been other Swedes working here, the same would apply to them. I'll have a
beer with them, but other than that, unless something clicks, it is merely a
colleague.

------
johapers
Native Swede here.

Stockholm is quite dynamic in terms of its start up culture. There are a
number of ways to network within the industry, most prevalent way to do so is
Sthlm Tech Meetup.

Salaries are relatively low for engineering jobs (compared to ex Germany), but
should be ok in the software space. Ok in this case would be
~4000-4500k€/month for a relatively experienced software engineer. Do note
that tax levels are rather high once you reach higher levels of income
(50%-55% marginal tax rate). The tax is a pain until you have kids and you pay
almost nothing for daycare and schools.

The main thing to be aware of is that the housing market in Stockholm is
completely crazy. It is very difficult to find somewhere to live. If you
manage to get relocation support this should not become an issue for a while.
Be ready to pay ridiculous money for second hand rentals (compared to salary)

~~~
bogomipz
I am curious. Sweden is a very practical and policy driven place, is the local
government addressing those housing issues in some form? I know this has been
an issue for some time now. I'd be interested to hear what the local discourse
is on that.

~~~
TotallyHuman
No, they're completely sweeping them under the rug and are determined to
worsen them even more by importing as many economical "refugees" as possible.
The country is doomed.

~~~
kpil
Why is this downvoted?

There is a predicted shortage of up to 1,000,000 residences In a market of
4,500,000 or so, and a population of 10 million, recent refugees not included
(yet).

The last 'fix' to the problem in 1960-1970 was building brutalist suburbs that
turned into high-crime areas, and eventually into 'no-go' zones, fuelled by
the virtually unlimited immigration. This is now not limited to the (three)
larger cities as there are about 150 areas around the country where gang
(mostly immigrant or descendant) criminality is a significant problem.

In some areas, like Södertälje and Alby- clan structures are starting to
corrupt parts of the local government, giving political power to family heads
while welfare systems are abused with the help of relatives working in the
social services.

Grenades are thrown into apartments in gang wars, recently killing an 8 year
old boy visiting from UK, and just yesterday one grenade exploded on someone's
balcony just because he happened to live next to a gang member.

Meanwhile, nicer neighbourhoods have some of the highest prices in the world,
except Monaco and other outliers. 1000000 USD is not much for a house in my
area which is close to Stockholm but not special in any way and is within
shooting range from one of those no-go zones.

This is fuelled by unlimited length mortgages with the extreme rate of around
1-2%.

The previously strong industrial economy is crumbling slowly.The largest
companies listed at the Stockholm stock exchange are banks, not industrial
export as for 15 years ago.

High tech jobs, like software development, are moved to neighbour countries
like Estonua or Lithuania were the salary is 50%. Lower skilled jobs like call
centres and backoffice jobs are going there too at a higher rate.

Is the government concerned? There are plans for an _extra_ employment tax on
banks, which will only make offshoring more attractive.

The unemployment rate is going down right now, but because there are 100,000
less young adults entering the job market than 5 years ago, unfortunately not
because there are more jobs.

Meanwhile, the majority of the 1,000,000 immigrants (from the last few years)
that could fill the vacancies will never find a job when they eventually enter
the job market as many have almost no education, and are not skilled nearly
enough for one of the most demanding job market in the world.

There are no plans whatsoever to address any of these problems as far as i can
tell, except the emergency stop in the refugee policy, much too late.

Even discussing a few of them is considered racist, and instead both the
government and media is doing a fair deal of spinning, like highlighting the
100 or so doctors and dentists from Syria that might get a certification
within 10 years, which is as close to irrelevant to the problems as anything
can be.

The central bank is balancing and trying to help the exports and the slow
industry without blowing up the house market even more. The head of the
central bank, Ingves, looks more and more like an angry gnome trying to
highligh the risks, but no one listens.

So the downvoter is either a Swedish hipster in denial, or a troll.

~~~
throwy667
Can you point me to some readings about the suburbs crime situation?

~~~
uola
Even the "worst" neighborhoods are calm in Stockholm. It's nothing compared
to, say, Paris or Brussels. Living in the suburb, you're far more likely to
get hurt by boredom than anything else. A lot of people in Stockholm (like in
other cities) are bitter of how things have developed in recent years with the
financial crisis, youth unemployment and housing situation while at the same
time many people have been profited of real estate and consulting. Then they
extrapolate this to mean that everyone is doing badly and the country is
"going down the drain". I put no judgement in that it's just not particularly
relevant for you. Your personal situation is going to overshadow the other
factors.

The $100k USD figure is low, it's more like 10x that for a family sized house
or apartment in or close to the city. People don't really buy apartments so
much as rent them from the bank.

~~~
drakonka
We ran into this issue when looking for a place to buy. Options were either
super expensive tiny apartment in the center or something cheaper but bigger a
10-15 minute train ride away. We looked at a place in "Enskededalen". Googling
revealed people talking about how horrible it was, the crime that goes on, how
unsafe it is, how they would never move here, etc.

Go to visit the place...and it seems perfect. In a block of houses facing a
nice yard and playground as opposed to the road, large space with a porch and
balcony, plenty of room for our cats, etc. But I was suspicious. This place
was meant to be so bad!

After getting some more opinions we went for it and can honestly say I have no
idea what people were so afraid of. The neighborhood seems very safe -
children play outside alone, it's quiet, each little house block area takes
care of their yard, etc. It is a more multicultural area than say Södermalm,
but that is a positive. The most "unsafe" thing I've seen here is groups of
teens on walks or having a smoke in the evenings (I was wary of them at first,
but have since learned they're harmless) or local toddlers leaving their toy
cars underfoot in the shared yard.

~~~
kpil
Enskede (next to it) is one of the better areas in Stockholm so it's less
expensive neighbour Enskededalen is perhaps bad only in comparison.

I think I've might have seen some druggies in the area a few times more than I
would expect but that was 15 year ago... But maybe those things stick.

It's definitely not one of those no-go zones.

------
manarth
I spent nearly a year as a contractor (for Ericsson) in Stockholm.

I found it difficult to rent a flat, and I got the impression that this was
fairly common. Be prepared to hunt through adverts, and respond as soon as you
can after its published. If you leave it much more than a day, you'll probably
get ignored. My Swedish colleagues told me that even if there's a phone number
on the advert, don't ring it, email instead. And reply in Swedish - have
someone translate your reply for you. But be prepared for lots of frustration
when house-hunting.

In general, language wasn't an issue - although I knew no Swedish, _everyone_
spoke excellent English. Not just work colleagues, but coffee-shop waiters,
supermarket clerks, bar staff, pretty much everyone I met.

Financially, there were few surprises. Housing was expensive, just like any
other major city. Alcohol's a little pricier (taxes), and you can only buy it
in a chain of government-run shops, which have limited opening hours…you can't
just pop to the supermarket for a bottle of wine. As for the rest: coffee,
eating out, groceries, were all on a par with western Europe prices.

Speaking of coffee, the culture of Fika is a great Swedish institution, and
should be spread worldwide :-)

I love extremes of weather, so a very snowy winter and a gloriously hot summer
were great for me, YMMV.

I ended up coming back to the UK, but some of my contracting colleagues from
other parts of Europe decided to stay. They've since settled down in
Stockholm, and easily found another project at the end of the contract.

Ericsson's taken a fairly hefty hit this year, and are planning another round
of significant layoffs, which may have a short-term impact on the tech market
around Stockholm.

~~~
wingerlang
I don't think "fika" should be capitalised, although I see why you did it.

Anyone here knows if it should or not in a situation like this?

~~~
dalke
It should not be capitalized.

------
adamwi
Also native Swede so might be a bit biased.

If you enjoy the outdoors Stockholm has a lot of accessible nature just around
the corner with large parks in central city as well as accessible and clean
water ways as large parts of the city is located on islands. Within weekend
trip range you have alpine skiing and wilderness in the northern parts of the
country.

When it comes to job hunting there are a number of larger incumbents such as
Ericsson that currently is struggling a bit. But there is also a number of
larger "start-ups" such as Spotify, Klarna, King, iZettle, etc. These
companies are very used to relocate new employees and have a structured
process for everything from housing, to tax admin, even initial social
activities.

------
elias12
Have you seen
[https://teleport.org/cities/stockholm](https://teleport.org/cities/stockholm)
?

Pretty much gives you roughly the things you asked above.

You can also post a question on their "Ask A Local" board, if you are up for
more specifics... [https://teleport.org/community/c/ask-a-
local/stockholm/](https://teleport.org/community/c/ask-a-local/stockholm/)

------
sheraz
As a foreigner in Sweden you will face the following problems:

\- most of your friends will be other expats. Swedes, at least in Stockholm,
do not seem very keen to open their social circle to you. Language is
certainly a part of it, but there is a darker cultural side to it that neither
myself or others have been able to crack.

\- As others have said housing is a shit-show. Fortunately public transit is
quick and makes long commutes tolerable.

\- If you have a foreign-sounding name, then you will want to change it.
Swedes love to play the multicultural card all over the place and virtue
signal at every level, but facts are facts. Your CV/resume is passed over by
recruiters and HR people if it not Swedish enough. Indian, Muslim, and African
names go to the bottom of the pile or are never called. Seriously, take a
Swedish name when you get here.

\- Working in the tech sector, there is little incentive to learn Swedish. The
amount of time it takes you to become proficient is not worth it. Worse, if
you are dark-skinned and speak broken Swedish it only hurts you more socially
and professionally. Best to keep it in English. Save Swedish for social
things.

\- Quality of life by many measures is high, but there is a depressive
darkness here. Strangers don't chit-chat. I've never seen a subway car so full
of people be so quiet. Everyone is silent, and that makes it incredibly
lonely.

\- Customer service sucks. I mean it is pitifully bad in Sweden. From
restaurants to banks it seems that there is no training or appreciation for
customers. This is where Americans really kick ass, and I wish Swedes could
take a couple of notes here.

\- There is no 24-hour culture. Strange that a place claims to be the capital
of Scandinavia, but literally everything shuts down before midnight save a a
couple of bars.

\- Gypsies everywhere panhandling, but you are from EU -- so nothing new
there.

\- Drinking culture here is strange. People are absolutely hammered by 10pm

\- The tech scene here is nascent and lacks the pay-it-forward attitude that
you might find in the US, Berlin, or London. There is an American guy here
named Tyler (@steepdecline) who has worked his ass off for 3+ years to make
something happen. However, I fear that if/when he leaves, this scene will die.
He might be a good resource to ping.

All in all, quality of life in Sweden is high (clean, healthcare, etc).
However, there is a cultural darkness/sadness/loneliness that touches
everything -- and I think Swedes would agree with me here.

~~~
toddan
Don't forget to mention the racism that is getting bigger and bigger here in
sweden. I am a native swede my self and i know how we talk and think. The
swedish democrats are real proof of how the whole population is starting to
show its true face.

If you are white sweden will be great, but if you are anything other than
white you will be in a quite cold hell where people do not like you.

------
pzh
I recommend watching "Welcome to Sweden" ;)

------
throwy667
Also is the 6 month probation period everyone is offering me common? Looks a
lot to me, I'm not a new grad without experience.

~~~
dagw
Yea, pretty much. You have to take into account that after those 6 months it
will become very difficult/expensive for the company to get rid of you so they
want to make sure you're 'worth it'.

