
Juul is reportedly laying off 800 to 950 employees - prostoalex
https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/29/juul-is-reportedly-laying-off-800-to-950-employees/
======
clomond
It makes sense to me that their business specifically would be impacted here
by corona. With Juul use being impacted with the lack of social
outings/nightlife eliminating many social use cases. Anecdotally, most
consumption I've seen has been within contexts which have since been
restricted.

As well, given people's concerns about keeping their lungs healthy, I imagine
'discretionary' consumption of vapes would be down as well.

~~~
013a
Anecdotally, the few vapers I have spoken to have, actually, substantially
increased their consumption. At home all day, nothing to do, vaping is
something you can pair with anything else. This has been corroborated with
casual conversations with a local vape shop owner; they've never done better
business, at least until the actual "shut your in-person shops down" a couple
weeks ago here. People want to stock up, and they're consuming more.

People quitting with the goal of keeping their lungs healthy may have an
impact, but you could similarly move up the "addiction" chain and reasonably
say that there's got to be a decent number of smokers who are looking at this
coronavirus as the sign from god they needed to begin quitting. Juul, and
vapes in general, are that next step.

My suspicion is that this has little to do with the coronavirus, and more to
do with lingering effects from the government pressure months ago. Juul
stopped production of every decent flavor they had. Even long time Juul users
I know have moved on from Juul and on to other products. They're, in essence,
the lightning rod of the industry. Kids don't vape Juul anymore; they haven't
for months. They're on cali bars, or even devices like the suorin air. Are
those going to get the same pressure Juul did? Probably not. The zeitgeist has
moved on.

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black6
All part of the plan following their acquisition by Altria (Phillip Morris).
Altria already had the IQOS in development and the vape companies were eating
into their customer base. By purchasing Juul Altria could publicly act as a
vaping proponent while working behind the scenes to maintain Big Tobacco’s
control over nicotine. Small, bathtub style operations locally cranking out
custom vape juice flavors had to be shuttered. Enter the rash of negative
press surrounding vaping and government intervention in the market (vitamin E
acetate as the carrier for illicit THC and CBD vape juice was the ultimate
culprit, not “e-cigarettes”). The small operations are not able to afford the
expensive licensing required for each flavor, and states really aren’t
interested in giving up the future money from Big Tobacco, against which
they’ve issued bonds. This is a long play made by Altria, and watching it come
to fruition has been amazing.

~~~
asdff
You can actually make your own e juice pretty easily. Lots of guides and a
huge community online.

~~~
catalogia
You can easily make your own beer at home, yet I doubt AB InBev is worried
about that. I don't think DIY hobbyists are relevant to companies operating at
this scale.

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adaisadais
Wild, typically during economic downturns companies that sell things like
alcohol and nicotine see an uptick.

But as a millennial myself I do see fewer and fewer of my friends purchasing
Juul / pods.

~~~
TaylorGood
From what I've seen lately, the JUUL crowd has moved to disposables, one brand
called PUFF.

~~~
adaisadais
I think the horror of “popcorn lung” and other maladies have also scared many
away.

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trekrich
Juul was sold to a big tobacco firm, cannot recall the name now. But they
bought it to rid of it so they sell their new ecig machine.

~~~
catalogia
The tobacco company formerly known as Philip Morris. (Altria)

~~~
asdff
They are mutually exclusive. Altria is the parent company. Like Alphabet and
Google.

~~~
catalogia
> Altria Group, Inc. (previously known as Philip Morris Companies, Inc.)

The distinction you're making is meaningless because it's all the same group
of assholes. They decided to play cute tricks with their branding because the
general public came to recognize them as assholes. It's no different than the
mercenary company 'Blackwater' rebranding itself to 'Academi' after it became
notorious.

~~~
EForEndeavour
> It's no different than the mercenary company 'Blackwater' rebranding itself
> to 'Academi' after it became notorious.

Wow, I'd totally missed that. Going full 180 from the comically evil-sounding
_Blackwater_ to the modern and vaguely nerdy Academi, complete with hipster-
friendly spelling variant, sounds like something straight out of a comedy
sketch.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi)

------
xiaolingxiao
How does this affect employees who have options but have yet to fully vest?
Under standard terms, can they sell their options immediately assuming the
have cash on hand and there is a market?

~~~
chimeracoder
> Under standard terms, can they sell their options

Under standard terms, options can't be sold, ever. Shares that were purchased
from options that were early-exercised and have not vested can be forcibly
repurchased at the company's choice (not employee's choice) upon termination.
Shares that were purchased from options that had already vested can only be
sold if there's a secondary market at that moment, but presumably Juul is not
laying off a thousand employees at the same time as it's raising external
money, so no.

~~~
xiaolingxiao
My apologies, somewhat new to the details of this.

> ... can be forcibly repurchased at the company's choice ...

For the sake of argument, what is the repurchase price here, and if the
company "repurchase" it, does the money go to the employees?

~~~
drfuchs
I think a bunch of the replies are missing out on the "why". Somewhat
simplified:

Employer: Welcome aboard. You get 1000 shares vesting over 4 years. They're
currently worth $1 per share, which will be your price no matter when you buy
them from us. You can buy the ones that have vested at any time until you
leave, but you can't sell them until we've gone public.

You: Great!

Employer: You know, there's a tax trap you could fall into when you leave,
whether that be before the 4 years are up, or after. If we haven't IPO'd yet,
but we've done a series C at $10/share, you will surely want to buy them as
you leave. But you can't sell them yet, and the kicker is that the IRS says
that the act of buying them for $1,000 when they're worth $10,000 means you
have a $9,000 profit in the transaction, and they'll want to collect taxes on
that (say, $3,000). And you may not have the cash to manage that. Even if you
do, and then the stock craters later, and you've already paid the taxes, you
don't get a refund of the $3,000 in tax the next filing season; rather, you
get to subtract $3,000 from any other stock gains you have (in any subsequent
year), should you be so lucky. Oh, and even if we have gone public by the time
you leave, if you want to hold onto your shares, you've still got exactly the
same problem: pay tax now, be out the cash, and lose big if the stock tanks.

You: Fooey.

Employer: But! Have we got a deal for you! It turns out that the IRS says it's
fine if you kind-of buy your shares from us now, for $1,000. (Frequently at
startups: We'll even give you a bonus to cover it!) Then, when you leave after
5 years, it's a no-op as far as the IRS is concerned, and you can hold the
shares until you want to sell, and at that point you have a gain that you pay
taxes on, which you can certainly pay out of your cash profits!

You: Super!

Employer: The only thing is, if you leave, say, after 3 years, really you
would have only vested on 3/4 your shares, so what we'll do is only hand you
750 shares (that you vested on), and a $250 refund of the rest of the $1,000
you gave us.

You: Yes, that's more than fair!

~~~
drfuchs
Fooey: Make that "... you get to subtract $9,000 from any other stock gains
you have..."

------
ars
I used to see adults smoking these in order to quit regular cigarettes. That
stopped a while ago, and now I only see teenagers using them.

~~~
alexandercrohde
A hundred times better than teenagers smoking.

~~~
elliekelly
I used to think that, too. Then I read this post[1]. JUUL has _more_ nicotine
than a cigarette and there’s less friction to using it: a 10 second hit
instead of a 10 minute cigarette and there’s no need to find a lighter or go
outside. It also doesn’t really smell so it’s easy to use discretely.

All of that adds up to people who think JUUL is safer or can help them quit
but it actually gets them hooked even more.

It’s like trying to cure a coffee addiction by switching to a shot of
espresso. It might look like cutting back but it’s really doubling up.

[1][https://gen.medium.com/confessions-of-a-juul-
junkie-6b5ce4a8...](https://gen.medium.com/confessions-of-a-juul-
junkie-6b5ce4a8b92e)

~~~
dlivingston
What you're missing is that nicotine is harmless on its own; in fact, it's
commonly used as a "nootropic" (cognitive enhancer) [0].

The true danger of smoking cigarettes is not the nicotine - that's simply the
vessel by one gets addicted. The true danger is the tar and other carcinogenic
by-products of inhaling a combusted tobacco plant.

Anecdotally, I started smoking cigarettes as a university undergraduate. I
used Juuls (and other e-cigarettes, both disposable and refillable) to help me
quit, and I'm now nicotine and tobacco free.

When I smoked cigarettes, I would wake up every morning hacking my lungs out.
I smelled awful. I couldn't engage in cardiovascular exercise for longer than
a minute.

With e-cigarettes, my coughing went away and my lung capacity returned to
approximately normal. In fact, I competed in two Spartan Beast races while
addicted to e-cigs.

Juul is an awful company for marketing towards children, but it's no
exaggeration to say that e-cigarettes saved my life.

[0]:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1579636](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1579636)

~~~
elliekelly
> What you're missing is that nicotine is harmless on its own

So if middle schoolers everywhere suddenly started chewing nicorette gum you
would think it’s totally harmless? I suspect not.

~~~
dlivingston
I must say that I’m a little bothered that that’s all you appear to have
gotten out of my comment.

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ChrisArchitect
what do <puff> all these <puff> employees do?<exhale large cloud of gross
sweet smoke>

Sorry I can't stop puffing on this thing while I type.

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burmer
good.

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notRobot
They targeted children with their flavors, colors, branding and
advertisements. They are responsible for countless teenagers getting addicted
to nicotine.

I couldn't care less about anyone who helped make that happen. Scum of the
earth.

~~~
bananabreakfast
They're also responsible for countless smokers quitting cigarettes for
something far less carcinogenic.

It is very reductive of you to just group people into being comic book
villains.

~~~
gpm
This argument is akin to saying "sure, he murders people by night, but he's a
fire fighter by day so it's ok".

The kids being addicted to nicotine weren't even collateral damage. They were
being explicitly targeted. Doing good doesn't excuse doing evil.

~~~
asdff
Where is the evidence that kids were explicitely targeted? Kids can't buy
these unless some adult consumer or a shop clerk is breaking the law. Flavored
vodkas aren't treated with similar scorn, but you know 14 year old kids are
getting faced off of blueberry smirnoff and not rye whiskey.

~~~
sandworm101
>>The Food and Drug Administration on Monday came out swinging at e-cigarette
giant Juul over a variety of its unproven safety claims and startling
marketing practices—most notably saying without evidence that its products are
safer than smoking traditional cigarettes and giving presentations directly to
kids in schools—in at least one alleged case, without teachers present or
parental consent.

[https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/juul-gave-
presentati...](https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/09/juul-gave-
presentations-in-schools-to-kids-and-the-fda-is-fuming/)

The were speaking directly to students inside schools. Kids. They were telling
them that their products were safe. You don't see toy companies doing that.

~~~
Apocryphon
That's cartoonishly exploitative. Juul should be fined for this predatory
marketing.

~~~
titzer
They should face jail time.

~~~
Apocryphon
Even better. Prosecute 'em.

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BubRoss
Good god, does anyone at techcrunch ever turn their phone to the side? Even
with ad blocking their site is straight up unusable.

~~~
artificial
Let them eat ads.

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philtar
The most surprising thing here is that they had that many employees to begin
with.

