
Philadelphia Is First U.S. City to Ban Cashless Stores - eplanit
https://www.wsj.com/articles/philadelphia-is-first-u-s-city-to-ban-cashless-stores-11551967201
======
deuslovult
A personal anecdote:

At Joe & the Juice in Palo Alto (cashless), I was buying a drink with my
friend, and a clearly homeless man in front of us was trying to buy a coffee
with cash. They refused and he got upset, so my friend paid for his coffee to
de-escalate.

We were outside when the cashier ran up to us in the street, explaining
"Please don't buy drinks for these guys, they come in here and get a drink and
use that to stay all day. It's not the look we're going for, and it's one of
the reasons why we have this cashless policy."

Cashless stores are convenient and I understand the arguments for them (as
well as the arguments for not buying homeless people free stuff), but as long
as cashless can be used to disenfranchise lower income people, I'm opposed to
it.

~~~
xoa
> _" they come in here and get a drink and use that to stay all day."_

Not wanting this behavior is absolutely reasonable, but what I'd find
suspicious and don't understand is why cashless would be the method. I know of
plenty of places that have policies along the lines of "during regular hours
15 minutes per drink, 40 with drink & food" or whatever is appropriate to the
location. It's private property though a public business, and they can set
non-discriminatory customer neutral policies for free use, particularly around
interfering with other customers. It also doesn't seem like it'd be at all a
class thing, I know lots of cafes around here have had issues sometimes with
someone coming in and getting a single coffee then pulling out their high end
notebook and using a table as a free internet accessible office for an hour or
two. They are not even slightly poor, they've got credit cards and
smartphones, they're just rude.

But the result was just that businesses instituted policies and simply ask
such people to leave if it seems to be deterring other customers, and that
also seems like the obvious general solution. I'm honestly curious about why
in Palo Alto that wouldn't be true too, is there some local law/ordinance that
prohibits asking a customer to leave or the like? If there is no such thing it
does seem more likely they were just lying, and the real truth was that they
want customers who meet some specific level of dress code and also don't want
to be honest about it (for legal reasons or just plain PR or both).

There are plenty of real reasons for a business to want to take the hit to go
cashless (managing significant amounts of physical cash is a genuine expense,
and in some places raises the attractiveness for robbery too). This really
doesn't seem like one of them though.

~~~
etrautmann
Paying for a coffee and sitting in a cafe for an hour is rude? I try to be
conscious of being a responsible customer by this is completely normal and
reasonable in the majority of cafes I'll frequent, like Philz in Palo Alto, or
any Starbucks anywhere.

~~~
lhorie
An hour seems fairly reasonable. I've seen groups of four people doing
business meetings at coffee shops. Where I've heard staff complain is when
someone buys a coffee and then stays for 4+ hours on a regular basis in a high
traffic shop (like near the touristic cable car stops in SF).

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superkuh
This is excellent news. I hope other municipalities and states follow. The
exceptions for 'memberships' is a cop-out and hopefully this will be changed
in the future as well.

Cash must be accepted. It is the only form of payment (besides
cryptocurrencies) where the individual does the payment. Other forms are
merely large corporations/institutions using their financial clout to signal
that they will pay for something in the future. And those corporations always
have perverse incentives to both sell your purchasing history to anyone that
wants it as well as enact financial embargoes against arbitrary
people/companies whenever even slight political or social pressure is applied.

Only accepting corporate or institutional payments is racism against non-
corporate persons (humans).

~~~
swiley
Most cryptocurrencies someone else is still doing the payment, they're just
selected in pseudorandom way that's waited by their ability to complete a
proof of work.

~~~
penagwin
Unless you're using an exchange (admittedly most are) for your trading then
it's still your machine telling the network it'd like to do a transaction -
somebody is selected via proof of work to confirm it - and then you're on your
way. Only you can start the transaction, and it can only be received by the
one you addressed it to.

The way credit/debit cards work is far different IMO.

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dsl
Any establishment where you pay after you receive goods or services (post-pay
gas stations, restaurants, etc) must accept cash by federal law. If you are
paying for something you have not yet received (grocery store, movie tickets)
the business can refuse cash, unless a state or local law requires it.

Honestly, I'd like to see universal acceptance of cash extended into federal
law.

~~~
Simulacra
Do post-pay gas stations still exist?

~~~
sverige
Yes, but they're generally in rural areas where people know each other.

~~~
taborj
Or, ya know...the entire state of Oregon.

~~~
mnm1
And New Jersey.

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yingw787
I don't get why there aren't any laws formulated at the federal level to ban
cashless stores. Not accepting the U.S. dollar as direct payment is pretty
much refuting the sovereignty of the U.S. government, no? It also concentrates
financial leverage in a few payments companies rather than direct consumers,
which may incentivize anti-consumer behavior like adding/raising credit card
rates (what are you going to do, use cash in a cashless world?).

~~~
icebraining
They still accept US dollars, just not in physical form. Most money created by
the government is virtual.

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UweSchmidt
I'm impressed that such a move is even possible, considering the powerful
interests that must be in favour of cashless. Cashless stores could be a
stepping stone in the abolishment of cash.

The main issue for me is that if society is cashless, we could get negative
interest rates, and we would be at the mercy of banks. All kinds of offers and
conditions could be tied to and bundled with an increasingly abstract concept
of money, credit and income.

~~~
mikeash
Is there much difference between a negative interest rate on a bank account,
and holding cash in an economy that experiences inflation?

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pariahHN
I think it's important for there to be options - if you are reliant on the
payment network, what happens if it goes down? What if someone for whatever
reason is unable to use their card?

Having cash as a universally accepted backup is a good thing. That being said,
I can see all the issues with the implementation - I've experienced some of
them myself. But, why have we not seen any improvements? We already have
mechanisms for processing cash and change automatically, vending machines do
it all the time. Self-checkouts seem to manage cash just fine.

Just a speculative idea, but why not an automatic cash processing machine on
the side of the main line? Tell it what the amount owed is, person can move
over there and take all the time they want digging through wallets without
disrupting the main flow. Possible issues with employees having to take time
out for fixing issues with the machine, but then you have that problem with
card processing machines anyways. Some Walmarts have both cash/card machines
and card only machines - seems like a reasonable compromise.

There are clear benefits to being able to process both card and cash - why are
we so fixated on getting rid of cash instead of bringing the process to the
same level as card?

~~~
mnm1
I bet these non cash businesses start taking cash right away of their card
reader goes down. Either that or close for the day? No way. They will change
their policy temporarily because keeping poor people out is less a priority
than making money. Still a priority, just less of one.

------
valleyjo
I enjoy cashless stores. A few bars in Seattle are card only and it’s a lot
more efficient. I understand that there is potential impact to low income
people who don’t have credit but isn’t it kind of up to the store owner to
decide what they want to accept?

~~~
hocuspocus
> low income people who don’t have credit

I know that banking in the US is both weird and antiquated compared to the
rest of the developed world, and I also know that the unbanked population is
relatively high, but surely most low-income people can own a debit card and
pay without cash, no?

~~~
maemilius
Might depend on where you are. With the exception of Food Stamps, pretty much
every transaction I've seen from lower income people in my area is cash based.

I usually feel like an outsider since I generally carry no cash in an area
where it feels like everyone pays for everything with cash.

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neonate
[https://outline.com/cFvdFF](https://outline.com/cFvdFF)

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skizm
This doesn't sit right with me. If someone comes in with thousands of pennies
am I allowed to refuse that type of payment? As a business, if I don't want to
deal with the overhead of handling cash, I shouldn't have to. It feels like a
law where websites are required to render correctly on all browsers or
something. The right to refuse service to people should also extend to the
right to refuse types of payment.

~~~
djsumdog
"This note is legal tender for ALL debts, public and private."

A state must have a monopoly on its money. We don't let people print money and
cards are an indirection, but they must still deal in US currency. The note is
the most basic form of that currency.

So yes, you should need to count 1,000 pennies. You might not like it .. it
may be abused, but those are the rules of the system we currently have.

~~~
skizm
True, but that's why I'm saying it doesn't sit right with me. I'm not debating
what the law is. I'm saying, in my opinion, businesses should be allowed to
refuse types of payments.

~~~
bootlooped
You can probably refuse any type of payment you want... except cash.

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diebeforei485
Card payments are so much faster for everyone involved in my experience at
bars, nightclubs, event venues (sports, music festivals, concerts), and
coffeeshops.

Other groups to consider (not mentioned in this article) are foreign visitors
and kids.

Foreign transaction fees on each transaction can add up, so it's often best to
get local currency at an ATM or a bureau de change. As for kids, parents often
give kids cash as a budgeting mechanism.

~~~
derekp7
With chip based cards, cash has become faster. At least this is the case with
the card reader at the cafeteria at work, where you can hum most of the
Jeopardy theme while waiting for the machine to do its thing. Whereas cash
customers move along in a few seconds.

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gambler
Good for them. Cashless stuff sound cool and progressive in the short run, but
it's is a horrible idea in the long run. It's a privacy nightmare and gives
disproportionate power to a few middlemen entities that usually have zero
obligations to anyone. Also, it's a great stepping stone towards centralized
control over all transactions.

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classichasclass
Going back to largely cash transactions not only reduced my paper trail, but
it's much easier to keep to a weekly budget. And, hey, cash price at gas
stations!

~~~
hitpointdrew
> cash price at gas stations!

I avoid all gas stations that have a "cash" price.

~~~
klodolph
On average, you're not saving money that way. The cash price reflects that
you're not paying as much in bank fees.

~~~
cobbzilla
Sure, and if you pay cash anywhere that accepts cards but has no cash
discount, then you are subsidizing the bank fees (gotta get those points!) for
all card-paying customers.

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vineyardmike
Pretty sure all of MA banned cashless stores in the 70's. Guess this is the
first _city_, but still not the "first" to make the move.

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Animats
Cash is so much faster. I'm frequently stuck behind someone who has card
problems, or is using some affinity card, or mistypes their PIN, or is mucking
with their phone to get it to interact with the reader. Cash and you're done
in 15 seconds.

Worst case is someone who actually accepted the clerk's sales pitch to sign up
for an affinity card. That takes forever.

~~~
skizm
In NYC I have had the exact opposite experience. Cashiers routinely process 2
or 3 card payments while they politely ask the odd person rummaging around
their wallet for cash to step to the side. Plus they have to mess around with
change once the person does finally get the correct bills together. In the
morning when I'm in a rush I get anxious if I notice someone start reaching
for cash and I'm behind them in the line.

~~~
ericd
Random idea, and I know this is unlikely to come to pass, but this could be
largely mitigated if stores listed all-in prices (including tax) and made
those relatively round figures so that people could figure out how much to get
out while in line.

~~~
bobthepanda
The problem is that sales tax varies wildly according to your local
jurisdiction, and prices, particularly for chains, are not set at that level.

~~~
ericd
Maybe, but that doesn't seem like an intractable problem if you're willing to
take some fluctuation on margin from region to region. Which corps do already
due to differences in minimum wage, suppliers, etc.

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soulnothing
I posted this in the article about NYC going cashless as well. The thing that
I find interesting is the lack of septa key being mentioned.

Septa key is their new transit card. But it can act as a debit card with money
loaded via cash. No bank account required. Caveat that the kiosks aren't
spread every where. But they are in enough locations.

Despite that I have barely heard mention of it during this cashless
discussion. The whole crux is allowing underprivileged to access stores. Which
was one of the reasons for the Key card as well.

[https://billypenn.com/2018/08/28/your-septa-key-is-now-a-
deb...](https://billypenn.com/2018/08/28/your-septa-key-is-now-a-debit-card/)

~~~
joekrill
It's not mentioned because SEPTA still accepts cash. You aren't required to
buy a Septa Key card to ride.

~~~
soulnothing
I understand that. But the Key card can act as a debit card / electronic
payment. Without a backing bank account. The whole complexity add of turning
it into a debit card. Was so that people without banks could shop at card only
stores.

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goscots
The whole argument for this doesn’t make sense. Cashless payment systems are
ubiquitous across socioeconomic lines in China and other countries. The
problem is specific to the US and can be solved in a less destructive manner
to businesses. Instead of punishing retailers, the city should create an
incentive system to help people from less privileged backgrounds obtain access
to banking systems and electronic payment systems.

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ChrisArchitect
I was thinking about this recently when news broke that Atlanta's Mercedez-
Benz Stadium (home to MLS's Atlanta United, NFL Atlanta Falcons, recent
superbowl host) was going cashless too. While technologically 'neat' or
whatever, it always also feels just like a flashy move and definitely a slight
against the poor. Sports entertainment doesn't have to be only for the rich, a
trend that always creeps

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ChrisArchitect
I was thinking about this recently when news broke that Atlanta's Mercedez-
Benz Stadium (home to MLS's Atlanta United, NFL Atlanta Falcons, recent
superbowl host) was going cashless too. While technologically 'neat' or
whatever, it always also feels just like a flashy move and definitely a slight
against the poor. Sports entertainment doesn't have to be only for the rich, a
trend that always creeps

~~~
LanceH
My first move would be to eliminate the ability to write off tickets/boxes. I
can't count the number of people I know that have corporate tickets that are
90% for personal use, but written off because they take the occasional client
to a game/show.

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walterbell
[https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/03/cashless-cash-free-
ba...](https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/03/cashless-cash-free-ban-bill-new-
york-retail-discrimination/584203/)

 _> In February, New York City Councilmember Ritchie Torres introduced
legislation that would prohibit retail establishments from refusing to accept
payments in cash. The council hasn’t made a decision on the bill yet, but
Torres is confident that it will pass by mid-year. If it does, cashless
businesses could face fines of up to $500 for every violation ... Also in
February, both houses of New Jersey’s state legislature passed a similar bill
and are only awaiting the governor’s signature. San Francisco has recently
proposed a similar ordinance, and Washington D.C. and Chicago have also
introduced legislation that would make it illegal to discriminate against cash
as a form of payment._

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danielfoster
>Philadelphia City Councilman William Greenlee, a Democrat, >said he was
inspired to introduce the bill after noticing >some Center City sandwich shops
had gone cashless.

>“Most of the people who don’t have credit tend to be lower >income, minority,
immigrants. It just seemed to me, if not >intentional, at least a form of
discrimination,” he said. >Now, he said, stores will be required “to do what
businesses >have been doing since Ben Franklin was walking the streets of
>Philadelphia.”

Shame on Philadelphia for punishing innovation instead of helping low income
families access banking and credit cards.

~~~
dkhenry
There is no one in Philadelphia who does not have access to the banking
system, or have the ability to pay cash for a prepaid debit card. After
dealing with people in Philadelphia who are "unbanked" it was never because
they couldn't get access, it was a choice they made to avoid having assets in
the regulated banking system

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mnw21cam
I'm not entirely sure why the article is conflating credit with this issue.
Card != credit. There are debit cards too, and you don't need credit for one
of those.

~~~
dragonwriter
The same factors that lead to being denied credit also result in being denied
access to banking, so, sure, the problem is really for the unbanked and not
those simply lacking credit, but those groups have a deep and fundamental
link, not a mere casual correlation.

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novacole
As a Philadelphian, I find this odd and backwards. It’s cash only stores
(Chinese food stores, corner stores, etc) that are annoying to me since I
almost never have cash on hand and prefer to pay with my card. Plus I’m sure
the city is bringing in far less tax revenue from cash only stores than a
cashless store since there’s no paper trail with cash.

~~~
novacole
However, I am aware Philadelphia is a poor city, with around a 20%
unemployment rate so, and many unbanked/underbanked ppl I can see the other
side.

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upofadown
Weirdly, the idea of an entirely cashless store strikes me as sort of last
century. I do most stuff online now. There is no point in bothering with a
special payment method for offline stuff. It is easier to just use cash for
everything.

Perhaps some day the government might come up with some sort of usable
electronic cash system, but until that day I carry around bills and coins.

------
zachguo
Meanwhile, "Danish government wants to allow petrol stations, stores to refuse
cash" [https://www.thelocal.dk/20190227/danish-government-wants-
to-...](https://www.thelocal.dk/20190227/danish-government-wants-to-allow-
petrol-stations-stores-to-refuse-cash)

------
deckar01
> ... shall not: ... Charge a higher price to customers who pay cash than they
> would pay using any other form of payment.

[https://phila.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=3710586...](https://phila.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=3710586&GUID=FD85947F-8151-4DB5-9949-AF6FEF14A9C9)

Businesses are also prohibited from charging a cash processing fee higher than
the processing fee of any other type of payment. Depending on how this is
interpreted you could introduce an alternate form of payment that carries a
high processing fee and charge the same amount to pay with cash.

Edit: Replaced joke with the technical insight it was meant to suggest due to
downvote.

~~~
icebraining
"Any other" is not "some other". I don't think that's ambiguous, you can't
charge more for cash than the cheapest alternative payment method.

~~~
deckar01
It sounds like it might also require a company to give cash purchases the same
discount they offer to consumer credit card purchases.

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swasheck
i thought that because cash was "legal tender" it was required by law to be
accepted but the second paragraph disabused me of that.

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draz
Is it just about purchasing access to certain consumer groups, or also a
defensive move to preserve human cashiers jobs?

~~~
maemilius
Unlikely. Self-checkout kiosks can process cash and give change just fine.

My assumption is that this is to protect the buying power of the unbanked -
which are predominantly low-income, as I understand it.

------
kbutler
Ars Technica has a non-paywalled article: [https://arstechnica.com/tech-
policy/2019/03/sorry-amazon-phi...](https://arstechnica.com/tech-
policy/2019/03/sorry-amazon-philadelphia-bans-cashless-stores/)

And notes that Massachusetts has banned cashless stores since 1978

------
maerF0x0
IMO the whole cashless/alt currency movement indicates to me that the
Government failed to innovate to the benefit of it's citizens.

~~~
jeffchien
Sorry, how is this relevant to this article? Banning pure cashless stores for
the benefit of low-income or young customers seems reasonable to me. I think
my takeaway is, what can the cashless movement do for low-income or young
populations?

~~~
thegayngler
Their money is arguably safer and they have recourse if their card is stolen.

------
basseq
I'm conflicted in how I feel about this.

On one hand, cash is legal tender. If you're a business charging money in that
currency, _not accepting that currency_ seems wrong. Even moreso given some of
the socioeconomic impacts of people not able to have bank accounts / debit
cards.

On the other, this is capitalism. As a consumer, innovating towards a cashless
society is a good thing, and I would be afraid that such legislation would
have a chilling effect on innovation in this area. As a business, if
eliminating the requirement to deal with cash makes business sense, go for it.
If you're a consumer that wants to make cash transactions, or feels that
others should have that ability, _vote with your feet_ and take your business
elsewhere.

At the end of the day, I'm more concerned about businesses that _only_ accept
cash. That's annoying to me as a consumer, but I wouldn't suggest legislation:
I might just vote with my feet.

(I do think that public/government entities should be required to accept
credit cards, though. Toll plazas, for instance. I don't always carry cash in
this... increasingly cashless society.)

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rospaya
Good. I prefer paying with my phone/card, but cash should always be an option.

------
Scoundreller
Some politicians work some deals cash-only by necessity.

