

Don't hire a programmer if they don't code for fun - signa11
http://jdconley.com/blog/archive/2009/01/19/dont-hire-a-programmer-if-they-dont-code-for-fun.aspx

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TomOfTTB
Having been responsible for a team of developers I can honestly say I don’t
agree with this. At least, not entirely.

Every team needs a few "Rock Star" programmers (to use the author’s
terminology). When hiring those folks I think his advice is spot on. But the
reality of programming a project is that there will be some tedious work that
the "Rock Stars" will find boring. In my experience those types of developers
actually do pretty mediocre work when forced to write no-brainer code.

So I’ve found the best mix is to have a few of these rock star developers
mixed in with folks who enjoy development and are hard workers but who are at
a point in their life where they don’t have time for side projects. These are
the guys who were probably rock stars in their younger years but now have
spouses, kids and all the trappings of that (soccer practice, dance recitals,
et al). Since they aren’t looking to work for the majority of their
fulfillment they tend to be ok with the tedious stuff and since they are still
decent developers they turn in solid code.

~~~
ardit33
But in a early stage startup you better off with few of the rockerstars types,
then a lot of average coders.

You can really do more, with less.

In a early stage there is probably a lot of stuff to do, lots of features to
keep the smart people engaged, and with fewer more productive people you have
less overhead, less meetings, less political bs.

~~~
mechanical_fish
_in a early stage startup you better off with few of the rockerstars types_

Sure, but the article should make a point of including this qualifier.
Because, of all the teams of programmers in the world -- even if you just
count the competent ones! -- a very very small percentage are involved in
early-stage startups, despite PG's best efforts. And a lot of those teams
benefit from a mix of personalities, ranging from the energetic free electron
to the dedicated day worker to the manager who actually kind of _enjoys_ all
those tedious meetings where (s)he evangelizes your work to upper management.

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iamdave
_We just call them rock stars._

No we don't. We stopped doing that when other folks who were hiring "rock
stars" failed to get a product off the ground, and proved their salaries
couldn't live up to the livelihood of what a _rock star_ expects to be
compensated, thereby making the phrase "rock star" in any sense other than
someone who does what Jimmy Buffet did overwhelmingly kitschy, and anyone
using the phrase mind-numbingly foolish.

Thanks for playing.

~~~
thorax
I prefer "silly" to "mind-numbingly foolish", but I don't think he does
himself any favors by using the term.

~~~
Retric
Yea, silly works.

If we really want to give programmers silly names fine I am a "Professional".
Aka the movie "the Professional" where you have a problem, you pay me money, I
solve the problem. Rock Stars are just another silly name people give out so
they don't have to pay you what your time is worth. Look up actual rock stars
they tend to end up broke because while it might look like the are making a
lot of money most of the time they are getting peanuts.

~~~
jacquesm
if I correctly remember that movie it didn't end too well for the professional
;)

~~~
aaronblohowiak
I respectfully disagree. He died protecting someone he loved, taking out an
evil guy in the process. Thats as good a death as I could ask for.

~~~
jadence
Dude! Why do you have to post spoilers like that? Yeah it's far from a new
release but still!

I haven't seen it yet and it's on my Hulu queue. Thanks!

Argh!

~~~
aaronblohowiak
It's fifteen years old now. That's probably older than some of the people who
post to this board. I'd have more sympathy for the 'spoiler' effect if the end
wasn't also as obvious as a nail in the foot, even though its obviousness
doesn't detract from the strength of the story.

~~~
jadence
Who moderated you up here? You give away the ending of a movie and then
figuratevely give me the finger with a too-bad-for-you response and you get
applauded for it.

Sheesh. Would it kill you and jacquesm to put a courtesy "spoiler alert"
notice at the start of your messages?

(This is all incredibly off topic so this'll be my last post on it.)

~~~
jacquesm
apologies, I thought it was so old a spoiler alert would not be required.
Carelessness on my part for sure, it's just that to me it is like discussing
the ending of 'star wars' or 'the french connection'.

Great movie though, The Professional, go see it anyway, in spite of the
spoiler and enjoy the music too.

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pclark
> The guy that takes a 10 minute set of verbal requirements, extrapolates, and
> builds a Web 4.0 Whooziwhatsit in a day, before you even know what Web 4.0
> is.

I can't think of anything worse in my team than someone that just constantly
dives head first into code. Great coders stop and think, discuss, then code.
IMHO.

~~~
lbrandy
I can. The guy who is always listening for chances to jump in and prove how
smart he is, instead of actually hearing what the other person is saying.

~~~
msg
We have both of those guys on our team. But hey, they do usually get stuff
done.

The guy who is not interested in good software design, can't learn or pick
things up for their job, who requires constant repetition and babysitting, and
finally breaks your software out of ignorance is worse than both of these.

------
gaius
You should never hire a secretary who doesn't type for fun.

You should never hire a caretaker who doesn't mop floors for fun.

Doesn't actually work, does it? Why are programmers "special"?

~~~
yummyfajitas
You should never hire a musician who doesn't play for fun.

You should never hire an artist who doesn't paint/draw/whatever for fun.

Seems to work ok for creative professions.

~~~
Retric
Trying to lump all of programming into the types of things you have worked on
is a narrow view of the field. Programmers produce everything from high art,
to plumbing but it's much closer to engineering than a musician. While some
parts of programming is creative as a profession you get the full range from
creative work to simple trial and error.

EX: There are a lot of programmers who spend a lot of time interfacing with
buggy API's which is soul sucking work, because the bugs are random.

PS: If you are building a boy band you probably don't are about artistic
talent. It might be useful but it's far from the most important trait.

------
barrkel
You know, it really is possible to be working on something which _is_ the "fun
code" in your life. I try to avoid jobs where I don't have real passion for
the thing I'm creating.

Now, some of my "fun" might be in prototypes or similar concept testing or
learning - lately it's been parser combinators - but ultimately it's all
applicable to my day job, working on compilers.

~~~
plinkplonk
"to my day job, working on compilers"

This is the kind of day job one doesn't see here in Bangalore! Hereabouts
everything is enterprisey this, soa that. :-(

~~~
Xichekolas
For what it's worth, you don't see many of those jobs in the midwest either...
It's all SOA/six sigma/RUP madness here too.

To top it off, I have to update three timesheets daily.

~~~
plinkplonk
"To top it off, I have to update three timesheets daily"

Ouch!

------
nihilocrat
This is a good example of an article whose entire worth lies in the headline,
and there is no real reason to actually read it.

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Jem
I think it's the passion for what they do that differentiates a "rock star"
from someone who just does it for the pay. You can have passion without being
holed up in your bedroom programming 24/7.

~~~
cracki
holing up and hacking away is more likely though, if you have passion.

~~~
Jem
Oh yeah, no disputing that, I do it myself :)

------
stuntgoat
What if their idea of fun is taking slime samples from ancient damp caves in
Northern California and graphing the mold contents compared with other similar
caves in Oregon?I am just joking.

I think any employee that you hire should be questioned regarding what project
they have been inspired by. I would ask something like: "Talk about the last 2
or 3 projects you worked on ( personal or work-related ) where you felt
'extremely' to 'incredibly' inspired"

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw

      Dr. Egon Spengler: I collect spores, molds, and fungus. 
    

From the classic _Ghost Busters_.

------
DaniFong
I think that fun is the wrong word. Fun would imply laughing and smiling, I
think.

Many works of creativity happen when there's ideas or feelings inside that are
dying to get out.

------
bl00m
Just like photons, "Rock Stars" emit light but don't have substance. I'd
rather have a look at a programmers code samples to see if it's elegant, clean
and efficient.

~~~
ardit33
absolutely not. The rockstars I know (3 on my life), do really produce a lot
of code, and get done things quickly (and two of them had to leave early from
work, as they family and children to take care off, yet they could produce
almost twice the amount of quality code from other people and that's why they
are so impressive.

There are people that are all talk, and no game, but then they are people that
can really produce code faster than you can think about a feature. Also, some
of these people are able to do things that are too complex for any average
programmer to even grasp. Things like implementing a very efficient
interpreter, parser for a dynamic language, it top of something else, is only
domain of people that really know their stuff. Sure, I worked on a
interpreter, for a fictional language in CS class in college, but doing it for
a production level language, is a totally different ballgame.

As I said, management might be impressed by people that know how to talk, but
a good programmer will only be impressed by people that really can code and
get done things better then them.

The only way to recognize one, is to work with one.

------
LostInTheWoods
If a programmer codes for fun, he probably doesn't have a good idea of what
real fun is.

Secondly, not all things that need programming are "fun". Some are downright
tedious, but nevertheless important.

------
gcheong
Don't ever work for a place that doesn't have fun things to code?

------
known
And don't join companies that seeks references ( != back ground check ) for
programmers.

~~~
brl
Why not?

~~~
known
The interviewer has failed to assess the candidate in the interview.

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phil_collins
Just because a programmer codes something for fun on his own time doesn't mean
he's going to have fun coding your app too.

