
Why some Japanese pensioners want to go to jail - pmoriarty
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-47033704
======
jshprentz
The 1904 O. Henry short story "The Cop and the Anthem"[1][2] tells of a
homeless New York City man who commits small crimes, preferring arest and jail
to charity handouts.

"But to one of Soapy's proud spirit the gifts of charity are encumbered. If
not in coin you must pay in humiliation of spirit for every benefit received
at the hands of philanthropy. As Caesar had his Brutus, every bed of charity
must have its toll of a bath, every loaf of bread its compensation of a
private and personal inquisition. Wherefore it is better to be a guest of the
law, which though conducted by rules, does not meddle unduly with a
gentleman's private affairs."

Soapy's many attempts fail, but the story ends with a typical O. Henry twist.
No spoiler here.

The story was filmed in 1952, one of five stories in "O. Henry's Full House."
Charles Laughton played the vagrant. He briefly meets Marilyn Monroe. Watch
this segment on YouTube[3] or enjoy the entire film.

[1] [https://americanliterature.com/author/o-henry/short-
story/th...](https://americanliterature.com/author/o-henry/short-story/the-
cop-and-the-anthem)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cop_and_the_Anthem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cop_and_the_Anthem)

[3] [https://youtu.be/temSJCZwUlU](https://youtu.be/temSJCZwUlU)

~~~
close04
This is a common theme especially in any country with cold winters. People
will commit low level crimes that will ensure just enough prison time to
survive the winter when they're either homeless or their home offers little o
no guarantee they will survive a very cold night (no money for heating).

Sometimes the prison system is bad enough that most people wouldn't resort to
this unless it's a life and death situation. So probably nothing of principle
(not wanting to take pity money) or not just as a method to save some more
money for a few years.

~~~
Fjolsvith
Saw this in Alaska when I lived there.

------
ekianjo
> Japan is in the grip of an elderly crime wave - the proportion of crimes
> committed by people over the age of 65 has been steadily increasing for 20
> years

Journalist does not get stats. Its increasing in absolute numbers because the
population over 65 is exploding as baby boomers come in that range. In
relative proportion its not increasing at all.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
Seems like the article caters for it well enough. In relative proportion it's
increasing:

 _" In 1997 this age group accounted for about one in 20 convictions but 20
years later the figure had grown to more than one in five - a rate that far
outstrips the growth of the over-65s as a proportion of the population"_

~~~
ekianjo
You missed the next sentence:

> nd like Toshio, many of these elderly lawbreakers are repeat offenders. Of
> the 2,500 over-65s convicted in 2016, more than a third had more than five
> previous convictions.

Those are not unique offenders. Somebody who commits multiple infractions is
counted several times.

~~~
mattmanser
Yes, some of the explanation is an increased population, but it's also clear
they're committing more crime than they did.

The graph in the article (1990-2016) looks like the proportion of offences
committed by pensioners has roughly risen from 3% to 20% (6.6x increase, maybe
5x if it's 4% to 20%), yet the proportion of over 65s (1990-2016) in Japan has
risen from 11.9% to 26.6% (a 2.2x increase)[2].

The source of the BBC graph is in Japanese[3], so I can't get exact figures
for the crime and papers I found that did have exact figures only went back as
far as 2005.

[1]
[https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/B06F/production/...](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/B06F/production/_105376154_japan_crime_full_edit-
nc.png)

[2]
[https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.65UP.TO.ZS?locat...](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.65UP.TO.ZS?locations=JP)

[3]
[http://www.moj.go.jp/housouken/houso_2008_index.html](http://www.moj.go.jp/housouken/houso_2008_index.html)

------
whitepoplar
My parents are set to turn 70 next year and I worry so much about their
wellbeing when they get older. My dad, in particular, is a generally happy
person, but doesn't have many friends. I worry that if my mom passes before
him, he's going to have a rough time. I feel guilty because I'm one of those
children described in the article who moved to another city to chase economic
+ social activity.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
We've all done it, and often had to, which is the root of the problem.

When I was under 10, both sets of grandparents and four of five aunts and
uncles were within 10 miles, most under 3. Now we're all over the place and a
visit isn't a regular frequent thing but a major, rarer, trip.

As I'm in my mid fifties some of the future looks rather bleak. Add longer
life expectancy after retirement and for most, better mental and physical
health, and you end up with many more years to contemplate your loneliness.

I saw one story a few years back of a retirement home that combined a nursery.
Which turned out to be a huge boost for both the kid's development, parents,
and the old folks. Every day they would have joint activities. Sounded a great
idea that we need far more of, rather than occasional novelty worth reporting.

~~~
slavik81
Last I'd heard, American labour mobility had been declining for decades. In
2011, the percentage of US residents who moved to a different state for work
was half the rate from 1991 [1]. Though, I'd be curious to see what the data
looks like beyond those dates.

[1]: [https://www.economist.com/finance-and-
economics/2012/07/07/m...](https://www.economist.com/finance-and-
economics/2012/07/07/move-over)

~~~
NeedMoreTea
I'd be interested in similar for the UK, but can't quickly turn up a similar
graph or stats for here. I'm now curious of the picture since the war, as the
picture for families seems to have changed quite significantly.

------
tsukikage
A relative who is a court interpreter assures me we have exactly the same
problem in the UK. The popular approach with her clients here is to smash a
car window, then turn themselves in.

With temperatures below zero, right now is a particularly busy time.

~~~
LeftTurnSignal
I've seen this happen in the midwest US too.

Given the choice between jail, being outside, or maybe a shelter if you live
around a bigger city, I know what i would pick for the winter.

------
devereaux
1) human contact

2) room and board

When pensioners or just any adult prefers jail to freedom, it makes you think
we failed something as a society.

~~~
moltar
I kinda agree but it also depends on the jail. I imagine Japanese jails are
nice, esp for small crimes.

I’ve seen Nordik jails in a documentary and I’d totally pick that over many
other places to live, if I was not able to afford living.

~~~
rfw
It really doesn't depend on the jail, at all. Having to be incarcerated to
have a good livelihood is unforgivably disgusting.

~~~
dmos62
Some people seek a different kind of freedom, that that which is taken away by
some jails, or maybe they don't seek freedom at all, rather comfort. Which is
very sad and normal.

I sometimes think that I'd find it therapeutic to stay in a fitting prison.
Some maybe relevant characteristics of mine are that I often seek isolation,
and my creative activities are fully isolated of any direct social contact.

------
Tyrannosaur
I've imagined a world where prisons and homeless shelters look almost
identical, save the prisons don't allow you to leave.

~~~
ljf
Look into prisons in Denmark - far closer to hostels or even universities
halls of residence. So much so that they encourage you people to live in them
too.

~~~
beaconstudios
this seems more humanitarian, but doesn't it reduce the disincentive to commit
another crime, especially for people from unstable or low-income backgrounds
where the prison may be more pleasant than home? Most prisons around the world
seem to be far too inhumane but I can't help but wonder if you can go too far
in the other direction.

~~~
pluma
Please watch this video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYj_FPT90cM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYj_FPT90cM)
(it's about Norway, which has very humanitarian prisons)

The short version is that a naive comparison shows that recidivism in Norway
is much lower than in the US, a more thorough comparison shows that recidivism
is actually not so different. But either way, making prisons worse _doesn 't
actually help fighting crime_. So the decision whether prisoners should be
treated humanely or not is more about ideology than effectiveness.

And personally I think humans should be treated humanely, no matter what they
did.

~~~
beaconstudios
I think you may have missed my point. What I'm saying is, between a horrible
prison and the Ritz, what's the optimum point so as to treat prisoners as
humanely as possible without becoming an actively inviting environment? It's
only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human dignity
with the risk of creating perverse incentives.

~~~
pluma
> It's only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human
> dignity

I don't know, the American prison system doesn't seem to consider that a high
importance. The problem in Japan seems to be that the not-even-actually-nice
prison system still trumps the conditions under which those pensioners
apparently live.

If your prison system is not a complete nightmare and people seem to be
intentionally getting themselves imprisoned the right solution isn't to make
the prisons worse, it's to fix the social problems that are making people
prefer going to prison (i.e. in this case: loneliness, societal neglect,
poverty and shame).

~~~
beaconstudios
> I don't know, the American prison system doesn't seem to consider that a
> high importance.

I'm not here to defend the American prison system - I'm talking more
generally.

> f your prison system is not a complete nightmare and people seem to be
> intentionally getting themselves imprisoned the right solution isn't to make
> the prisons worse, it's to fix the social problems that are making people
> prefer going to prison (i.e. in this case: loneliness, societal neglect,
> poverty and shame).

Obviously that's the ideal, but it's literally impossible. How is the
government (or whichever organisation) going to solve all its citizens'
personal problems? If we lived in a world where all people's personal problems
were taken care of, prisons would be barely needed.

~~~
Tor3
> Obviously that's the ideal, but it's literally impossible. How is the
> government (or whichever organisation) going to solve all its citizens'
> personal problems?

If we are still talking about poverty, loneliness, etc, then the solution is
to build old people's homes. As a lot of countries do, so it's clearly not
impossible. The residents pay a percentage of their pension and/or fortune, if
you're poor you pay little, of you're well off you pay more. But everyone can
get a place to live.

The specific problem in Japan as described in the article is that the basic
state pension is too low to live off. And with no alternatives you end up as
Toshio. The retirement age is also very low in Japan, which doesn't help -
you're supposed to live off your pension from you're 60 or even younger.
That'll be several decades of very poor economy for a lot of old people.

~~~
beaconstudios
I think a large part of the problem is that Japan is experiencing generational
shrinkage. It doesn't matter which way you slice it, when people over the age
of 65 make up 1/4 of the population and many need significant care it's going
to be impossible to do so without redirecting a sizeable share of their
economic output to elderly care. Taxes are just an indirection for directing
labour towards social projects so they're not inherently able to overcome
constraints like this.

------
Tsubasachan
Assisted suicide is a big trend in my country for old people who want to check
out. But I know that in many countries that's not an option due to religious
beliefs.

~~~
ezoe
Religious belief? It's more like moral and constitutional basic human right
issue.

~~~
dmos62
Are you saying that it's a basic human right to choose whether or not to live,
or that it's a right to not have a right to choose? The former would be a very
weird statement.

~~~
NikolaeVarius
I subscribe to former and I have no ides why you think its weird. The choice
of continued concious existence is literally the only real natural right we
have.

~~~
dmos62
There's an issue of terminology here. What you describe is not a right, it's
an obligation. If some action is a right, you can choose not to do it.

So you're saying that a human is obligated to live for the maximum span of
time possible. Does it still not sound weird?

Rhetorics aside, the power to turn yourself off is very important. Taking away
this power has been used throughout history as a means to intensify torture.
For someone in suffering, the power to end your life can literaly be the
difference between complete powerlessness and empowerment. I've been through a
few bouts of depression and can confirm this first-hand.

------
StillBored
This sorta reminds me of the stories of homeless people committing minor
crimes to get off the street during bad winter weather.

------
innocentoldguy
When I lived in Japan back in the 80s, doctor visits were basically free. They
took all day though, partially because the elderly would go to the doctor to
interact with other people, rather than for a real medical need, thus clogging
up the system.

~~~
rangibaby
it's the same now, clinic visits are very cheap but you will end up waiting
for 1-2 old people (if you are lucky!)

~~~
ekianjo
1 or 2 old people? You must be kidding. In a normal sized city where most
people live you have at least 10 people in the waiting line every single day
of the week and saturday too. Clinics and hospitals and Japan are completely
inadequate and doctors mostly spend just 5 mins per patient which is
ridiculous.

------
labster
We talked about this a bit last year with a different article:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16603343](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16603343)

------
expertentipp
Just wait to see Central European countries in 15-20 years. Prisons are quite
rough though, it’l rather impact suicide rates.

~~~
distances
Care to expand a bit for us not familiar with the situation there?

~~~
ivanche
Not the OP, but maybe I can give opinion. A lot of young (and often well
educated) people are leaving to USA, Canada, Germany etc, taking their
families with them too. For example, there are about 30K immigrants from
Serbia to Germany each year. From Croatia to Germany it's about 50K per year.
Significant number of them are doctors and nurses. Average salary (and
consequently, pension) in most of central and eastern European countries is
quite low, making nursing homes unaffordable. This, combined with the fact
that a lot of children/relatives now live 1000+km away and that the prisons
are, say, not well known for friendliness there makes situation quite dire for
current and future pensioners there.

~~~
mschuster91
> Significant number of them are doctors and nurses.

I'm half-German, half-Croat. Our excuse of a health minister (Spahn) actually
thinks that the solution for the utter lack of staff in the German health
system is to bleed the Balkan totally dry... as if that hasn't been going on
for decades!

All the people coming here to work in the health sector drop out after a
couple of years due to horrible payment and labor conditions, thus leading to
more recruiting in ever more remote countries, it's a vicious cycle. The
obvious solution would be to massively increase pay to increase retention, but
for unknown reasons no one wants to do this...

------
onetimemanytime
Retirement planning on $1200 SS: Go to jail for half of the time, plead guilty
so no lawyer expenses, and when out, live on $2400 :)

Sad way, but it's a way of doing it. Can't blame the newer generation as they
can barely manage for themselves. Add mental illness that starts in a lot of
older people and professional care is needed.

~~~
gruez
that doesn't work in the US because you'll get charged court/jail fees that
will wipe away any money you saved.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Only in certain circumstances can Social Security benefits be garnished.

------
socalnate1
Everything about this story is heartbreaking.

------
benj111
So can anyone shed any light on why they're jailing people for such low value
items?

~~~
konart
Because stealing a car and stealing a pen - is the same thing. A pen given to
me by my father 20 years ago can be of a bigger value for me than a fucking
Porsche.

~~~
ndnxhs
I don't think personal value counts in the legal system otherwise people would
claim everything was a priceless family item.

~~~
konart
That's not my point.

------
ToFab123
In other news. It is cheaper to stay on a cruise ship than in a nursing home.

[https://www.reshareworthy.com/old-lady-alone-on-a-cruise-
shi...](https://www.reshareworthy.com/old-lady-alone-on-a-cruise-ship/)

~~~
_Nat_
Seems like the lady in that story was telling a joke, as the services offered
by a cruise ship wouldn't be comparable to an assisted-living facility, let
alone a nursing home.

Not to ruin the joke, just, if she merely needed food delivered and chores
done with someone to take her to the doctor, she could live in a normal
residence and hire that help for much less. Assisted-living facilities would
provide a step up, then nursing homes provide support a level beyond that.

