
‘This is crazy,’ sobs Utah hospital nurse as cop arrests her for doing her job - dankohn1
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/01/this-is-crazy-sobs-utah-hospital-nurse-as-cop-roughs-her-up-arrests-her-for-doing-her-job/
======
cyberferret
Saw this on earlier news reports and am flabbergasted at the police response
to this.

IMO the nurse was trapped between a rock and a hard place - she had to comply
with hospital policy, as well as HIPAA standards or risk losing her licence
and/or her job versus complying with a police command.

I'm not a lawyer, so can't comment on whether the request from the police was
legally valid or not, but the reaction to grab her and cuff her like that when
she was not showing any signs of outward aggression or threats is beyond the
pale.

I also heard that the officer has not been disciplined or stood down from
duty, only been restricted from collecting blood at the hospital in person
again, which doesn't go towards solving the power imbalance and ethical
problems here.

~~~
Mithaldu
It is important to note that the police officer arrested her because his
supervisor ordered him to do so if she refuses.

Due to that it is possible that the officer, seeing his job threatened, did
not feel he had another choice.

Source of this information: [http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/08/31/utah-nurse-
arrested-af...](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/08/31/utah-nurse-arrested-
after-complying-with-hospital-policy-that-bars-taking-blood-from-unconscious-
victim/) \- "Payne [...] said he was advised by Lt. James Tracy, the watch
commander on duty that night, to arrest Wubbels for interfering with a police
investigation if she refused to let him get the sample [...]"

Pretty sad that the washington post would fail to report such a crucial
detail.

~~~
pskocik
The cop's behavior was inexcusable. Even if he had those orders, he could have
informed her and arrest her calmly without unecessarily escalating the
situation. The loss of temper is a clear sign of him being unfit for duty.

~~~
Mithaldu
In an ideal world, yes. In practice, in the USA? This is what your policy
makers deem "good enough".

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soreq
Let us not mince our words. This has a name. More than one. It's called
wrongful arrest, wrongful imprisonment and assault, she may (per laws of Utah)
very well even have had the right to forceful self defence against the police
offer but wouldn't have stood a chance. The perpetrator should be charged and
convicted according to the full force of the law, the mayor's apology is
meaningless, as it does not compensate for the crime, and is a tactic to
prevent a wholesale pitchfork-bearing protest against law enforcement. Paid
leave is theft of tax payers money, a compounded obscenity and effectively an
evasion of justice and, frighteningly, for the need to state the bleeding
obvious, law enforcement is not above the law. The police force conducting an
internal (as opposed to an independent commission appointed by the DOJ)
investigation adds insult to injury. What is needed is deterrence, i.e. costs
for action of this kind. In fact it may be legal for someone to hypothetically
with a spine, torque and some unusual but lawful requisite authorisation to
arrest the police officer in question for the above crimes. The nurse was
manifestly in the right legally, ethically and should be given an award for
courage to stand up to someone bigger and stronger than her, who clearly lacks
the judgement required for his office, to defend an unconscious patient in her
care. This incident portends fascism, which always begin with arbitrary
arrests. Dear nurse, let us applaud you for your professionalism, ethics and
courage, and let us stand by you as you see the wrongs done to you made right.

------
stupidcar
Just another cop on an insane power trip, driven to apoplectic rage by the
idea that he cannot do whatever he wants to whomever he wants, whenever he
wants.

I look forward to his union standing squarely behind him and insisting he did
nothing wrong.

------
randlet
"Salt Lake police spokesman Sgt. Brandon Shearer told local media that Payne
had been suspended from the department’s blood draw unit but remained on
active duty."

Constantly reading things like this makes it _extremely_ difficult to believe
the "it's just few a bad apples" comments we always hear.

~~~
ajmurmann
Cops constantly protecting each other instead of reporting each other makes it
very hard to trust the system.

~~~
Overtonwindow
The Blue Wall of Silence

------
rayiner
My hopes and prayers are with this lady’s attorneys. May she get a comically
large settlement.

~~~
RandomInteger4
To be honest, I don't think we should be seeking monetary settlements in cases
like these, but rather criminal prosecution.

Large settlements are about as good at deterring cops from committing crimes
as they are at deterring bankers from committing fraud in the name of the
bank, because in either case the "principal" \-- person paying the penalty --
is neither the cop nor the banker. Police departments don't care because the
money is coming from the taxpayers and not the cops. The banks don't care,
because the fine they pay for the fraud is less than the profit taken by the
fraud.

~~~
uoaei
Why not both?

Send a message loud and clear that roughing up well-meaning and innocent
citizens shall never be tolerated and will be prosecuted with a great risk to
one's personal accumulated wealth.

------
ajmurmann
I'm always more than disappointed by who generally becomes a police officer. I
dream of a world where police officers are obsessed with justice and have book
clubs in which they discuss Peter Singer and Kant like software engineers
might do with GoF for example.

------
ReedJessen
Sometimes, it's the right thing to do to allow yourself to be arrested if it's
in defense of others. Especially those who can't defend themselves under you
care.

~~~
wyldfire
She might have felt strongly -- or she might have been well trained by
hospital administrators and legal staff.

~~~
dba7dba
And disciplined. The nurse competed in 2 separate Olympics as an Alpine skier.
You can get to that level only with some insane amount of discipline and will
power.

------
lewisj489
On a unrelated note: Glad to see the hospital is using a modern OS (Windows
10) and not stuck on XP.

------
cup
More proof that it takes a white victim for the general public to start
noticing abuses that have been standard for minorities.

~~~
adventured
Your premise doesn't hold up very well. For example, in a given year over 50%
more white people are shot and killed by police than eg black people. There's
a sizable population difference, which points to the obvious imbalance of
abuse by police toward black people, however that's still an immense number of
white people getting shot. It would be considered insane in almost any other
country. You're underestimating the awareness of the problem by white people,
they've noticed the substantial amount of abuse & police militarization going
on (which is why so many white people now support doing something about it,
from ending the war on drugs to body cameras etc, the majority of white people
support these changes).

------
temac
Can hospital security neutralise the rogue cop in a case like that?

~~~
adventured
Legally there may be grounds to attempt it for safety reasons for patients
(would have to look at state law most likely); I'm skeptical though, the
police seem to always have overruling authority in such instances (for example
they can dictate the actions of firemen, arrest them at the scene of a fire if
they don't obey commands, etc). In practical terms, either way, trying it
could likely be a death sentence (multiple cops were on the scene).

~~~
codewritinfool
There was an incident here in St. Louis years ago. A fire truck blocked one
lane of a major highway to prevent anyone from rear-ending the accident scene
and the first responders. A police officer ordered the fire truck driver to
move the truck. A fire officer then told the fire truck driver that he was to
leave the truck right where it was because it was a safety issue. The fire
officer and the police officer exchanged words and the fire officer was
arrested and taken away from the scene of an active rescue. So yeah, police
arrested the fireman, but later a court case ruled against the police officer
and awarded the fire officer $18000.

------
junkculture
That cop belongs in jail. People who enforce the law should be held to higher
standards.

But he'll get paid leave, and will be back once it all blows over.

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zsleps
Why does this belong on HN?

~~~
dankohn1
Because body cams are the most important technology for freedom of the decade.

~~~
zsleps
This article isn't about body cameras.

~~~
dankohn1
You think any of us would ever have heard about this is the cop hadn't been
required to wear a body camera?

~~~
jdironman
I want to understand the protocol for body cam footage and how it becomes
released. Seems like this puts the officer in a bad light, so who released the
footage and why? Is there a standard in place for releasing body cam video?
How does it normally come into the hands of the public?

I am not defending or praising the officer...I am genuinely curious.

EDIT: Thanks, guys. I read up a bit on FOIA and have a much better
understanding about that now.

~~~
cabaalis
Having worked for a local municipality IT: All the electronic information held
by the city is public property. Emails, documents, videos; everything. When
asked to release information, they are allowed to redact certain personal data
points about citizens (such as SSNs) but they are obliged to release the
requested information. This is because the public bought those servers, pays
the employees, pays the bills to keep everything running, and therefore owns
it all.

------
0xBA5ED
Well gee, I'm thoroughly outraged. Anyone else totally outraged right now? I
am. Good job, Washington Post. See everyone back here tomorrow for more
outrage? Okay then.

~~~
mcphage
Why get outraged, when you can just stick your head in the sand?

~~~
0xBA5ED
Because outrage is viral. Don't you know?

~~~
mcphage
So is sticking your head in the sand—everyone is doing it!

~~~
0xBA5ED
Really?! I'm always out of the loop. Thanks for pointing me in the right
direction!

