
How Microsoft made it harder to create Windows 10 local accounts - mancerayder
https://www.pcworld.com/article/3409788/how-microsoft-made-it-harder-to-create-windows-10-local-accounts.html
======
godshatter
Interesting that my main reason for wanting a local account was not mentioned.
Privacy. I simply don't want my files saved on Microsoft's servers. Some
files, sure, I can put those in the cloud to make life easier. Other files,
no, not unless I can ensure they are encrypted and I'm the only one with the
key.

It's not like I'm doing illegal things. I just don't trust corporations and I
feel that they shouldn't expect to see everything I do.

~~~
alxlaz
It's not even "just" about privacy. I find the idea that "preferences,
password, and files are stored in the cloud and carry over to new devices" a
bit unsettling in terms of security and trust.

I am reasonably convinced that Microsoft isn't snooping on me, not at a level
of detail that would bother me anyway. I'm sure they have the tools to do so
if they want, but I'm not an US citizen, not doing anything illegal, not
involved in anything shady or uncomfortable for the US government or its
allies (which includes my country, for that matter) -- I think it's unlikely
enough that I'll ever be a target.

 _But_.

Microsoft, and its cloud servers, are a really big target. It's the holy grail
of ID theft. Do I trust Microsoft to safeguard my passwords, preferences and
files against attacks, not just today, but over the next ten or twenty years,
at a time when Windows isn't really the focus of their business anymore? I'm
gonna say a pretty big no to that.

Even if I were convinced they had only good intentions (let's say they do)
about this stuff, so did Yahoo, and LinkedIn, and Adobe and countless other
vendors who eventually ended up with huge data breaches.

Do I have any guarantees that, twenty years from now, Microsoft's personal
data storage systems won't give way, between budget cuts, incompetent
management (twenty years is a long time, maybe Satya Nadella's successor is
going to be worse than Steve Ballmer...), technical debt and increasing
capabilities from malicious actors? Can I be sure that Microsoft is never
going to lower their security standards? That they won't make any compromises
that they aren't willing to do today, even, say, if they were on the verge of
bankruptcy?

Granted, I have neither the budget, nor the security know-how that Microsoft
does, but I'm not that big a target, either, nor do I store my data on systems
that are accessible 24/7 from anywhere in the world. My passwords aren't too
valuable -- for all the reasons that make me unimportant to Microsoft + a
bunch of other ones (I'm not that rich, I'm not friends with any celebrity
etc. etc.). The costs involved in getting access to my data remotely far
outweigh any benefits -- which can't be said for Microsoft's treasure trove of
personal data.

~~~
la_barba
I appreciate your point, I really do, but I think that ship has sailed a long
time ago. Your password to that website? If the website is popular and has
some financial value, its on the shortlist too. They're not only going after
microsoft cloud servers. Yes, a central location makes it easier to get a
large dataset, but then again, penetrating some random e-commerse website is
way easier than hacking microsofts cloud servers. Your personal data and
billing info is already in tons of places, and all those places - are not
using the best security engineers to secure it. Your documents? Well unless
you're not sending those documents out, they're already on the cloud in some
form, everytime you email them to someone, or hand them on a usb drive. The
network effects of this are so strong that its simply impossible to escape any
of this. Without regulation, there is little chance of reversing these
worldwide trends.

>Do I trust Microsoft to safeguard my passwords, preferences and files against
attacks, not just today, but over the next ten or twenty years, at a time when
Windows isn't really the focus of their business anymore? I'm gonna say a
pretty big no to that.

>Do I have any guarantees that, twenty years from now, Microsoft's personal
data storage systems won't give way, between budget cuts, incompetent
management (twenty years is a long time, maybe Satya Nadella's successor is
going to be worse than Steve Ballmer...), technical debt and increasing
capabilities from malicious actors? Can I be sure that Microsoft is never
going to lower their security standards? That they won't make any compromises
that they aren't willing to do today, even, say, if they were on the verge of
bankruptcy?

Do any businesses exist that you can apply this guarantee to?

~~~
krageon
"It's too late not to want your life to be spied on, so you need to accept it
whenever you see it happening to you. Otherwise you are being naive."

Is that a fair summary of your point?

~~~
la_barba
Well, thats a fair criticism. But I'm saying its like trying to avoid being
kidnapped when you're already in the trunk of someones car. Sometimes the
trunk is nice and large and roomy... :)

------
chucky
This article has found fascinating new levels of click-baiting. The title is:

> How Microsoft made it harder to create Windows 10 local accounts

The faded out subtitle is:

> The company eases up a bit with the May 2019 Update, however.

The article then goes on to describe at length how complicated the process
used to be, and how evil Microsoft is for how having it so complicated. Then
suddenly it ends with a few lines describing how it is much simpler now.

I guess the amount of clicks on the article "How the latest Windows 10 update
allows for easier creation of local accounts" would be much lower.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
The real question is, why wasn't this article written three months ago? Maybe
it was reported at the time, but I certainly never heard about it.

Even now, I think it's more than worthwhile to look at what Microsoft did in
version 1809. Completely removing the option to create a local account at
setup without disconnecting from the internet is clearly user-hostile. That
Microsoft would ship Windows in that state is abhorrent, even if they're
fixing it now.

~~~
jimmaswell
I've set up Windows 10 computers multiple times spanning the past two years or
so and making a local account was never hard or complicated. With the ethernet
plugged in each time. Strange that what the article shows never happened to
me.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Are you sure you were using a non-enterprise edition of Windows 10 1809?

~~~
jimmaswell
I must have never ran into 1809, though every time I downloaded a fresh
installation media image.

------
danShumway
Another downside -- creating a Microsoft account means agreeing to more
arduous terms than you would if you only installed Windows locally.

Just as one example, a Windows EULA (last time I checked) does not include an
arbitration agreement, and a Microsoft account does.

Using an online account isn't just an inconvenience or a privacy risk for the
"paranoid" \-- you're just flat-out giving up your rights by signing up.

------
izzydata
I noticed this just the other day when I reset a windows 10 PC I obtained from
someone and tried to make a local account.

I made the mistake of connecting to the wifi and even after restarting the
computer in an attempt to restart the initial setup process it refused to take
me to the internet connection screen so that I could tell it to not connect to
wifi.

I could have possibly taken my internet offline entirely, but I ended up using
a fake Microsoft account and then switching to a local account after the setup
was complete.

This change really needs to be reversed. Forcing Microsoft accounts on people
is unacceptable.

~~~
jimbo1qaz
You can disable the network adapter from the setup screen.

On the setup screen, press Shift+F10 to open cmd.

netsh interface show interface

netsh interface set interface "YOUR-ADAPTER-NAME" disable

------
Trias11
+1

Microsoft needs to be publicly shamed for dark patterns like these.

No MSFT or AAPL or GOOG clouds for me.

Allow me to choose my own cloud setup.

This will be automated local encryption, versioning, compresion and Wasabi
cloud. And yes, local admin account on Win 10 Pro

------
Neil44
It's easier on Pro, you get a Domain login option which just creates you a
local account for you to use to get your machine domain joined, even if you're
connected to the internet already.

The main reason for me to use local accounts is as an IT professional I'm
often setting things up for other people who aren't present at the time.

Also if I set a Microsoft account up for someone then in their mind I am
usually then the contact for any and all issues around that account forever
which creates tension in my customer relationship.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
This is the source of another huge peeve though: Microsoft's developers have
largely forgotten local Windows domains exist, as selecting that the computer
belongs to an organization defaults to Azure sign-in, and then dumps you off
on creating a normal local account if you say "local domain instead".

The OOBE doesn't help with local domain setup _at all_ for no conceivable
reason.

Similarly, if you look at the new Settings app, it's support for domain PCs is
close to nonexistent. Out of disk space, and going to the storage tab? Great,
it'll tell you 50 GB of data is used by other users, but you can't see
anything about who they are. Need to manage other users? No can do, Settings
app doesn't even see domain accounts.

You have to go to the legacy Control Panel, System, Advanced Settings, and
then User Profiles (a Windows 98 era dialog) to see domain accounts and their
local storage use.

~~~
Neil44
Yep it's a pain to go and find your way to the join domain options these days.
It certainly shows you the way Microsoft is thinking about these things.
Domains with GPOs were a really sweet way to manage everything but MS have
realised they can nickel and dime you to replicate the same functionality on a
subscription model with Azure ADDS, so bend over boys.

All MS's stuff feels half finished these days. I believe they call it 'high
feature velocity'.

------
alteria
That whole flow is one of the insistent dark patterns I've seen so far.

I mean providing barely visible text that masquerades as an opt-out button is
one thing, but only allowing local account creation if you're offline is a
next level.

------
Stratoscope
I use a Microsoft account and OneDrive, but when I set up a new machine, I
always create a local account first and then later connect it to my Microsoft
account.

The reason I do it this way is so I can choose my own home directory name. I
want it to be C:\Users\Mike, not something based on my email address.

------
AlexandrB
Another example of “nonconsensual computing” from Microsoft. I don’t know what
I’m going to do once Windows 7 reaches end-of-life next year.

~~~
mschuster91
Hmm. Is there any comparison in features between the "normal" w10 and whatever
the latest version of Windows Server is? At least a server shouldn't nag its
admins with crapware and ads.

~~~
Neil44
You're not going to believe this but it's broadly similar, you get Candy Crush
etc. preinstalled on Windows Server 2019. Yes you read that right.

~~~
stallmanite
Only a matter of time before Linux starts losing market share in servers
because they can’t run Candy Crush. FOSS always playing catch up. Big /s

~~~
bitwize
WORKAROUND: apt-get install gweled

------
graycat
I've been using Windows 10 for about 18 months now and, really, from the
article, I have NO idea what the heck they are talking about. The problem is
typical: The article uses ordinary words from a standard English dictionary
but uses them in new ways not in the dictionary and not yet common. A word
used in this way is a _term_ and needs motivation, explanation, discussion,
examples, and, at the least, definition -- and the article has NONE of these.

So, to start, in what sense is a "local account" or "Microsoft account" an
_account_ at all? Does it cost money? Do I get account statements? Do I get
invoices? Are there return privileges? What products or services are involved?
I'm about totally to blow my stack in frustration -- what the heck is an
"account"????????

Then let's continue with "local" and "Microsoft" ....

In particular, with a "Microsoft account", what passes between us, from me to
them or from them to me? What the heck is going on? Me to them? Of COURSE, I
want Microsoft to know as little as possible about what I am doing in life,
computing, with Windows 10, etc. -- all that is just NONE of their business to
know.

Does someone actually understand what these "accounts" are all about?

The article is less clear than mud, and apparently it is clear as air compared
with Microsoft. Soooo, I canNOT be nearly the only one who doesn't know. So,
can someone explain and get the rest of us caught up?

------
thom
I’ve been logged in with my son’s email address attached to my local account
for almost a year. I get weekly screen time emails from Microsoft about
myself. Apparently I am supposed to create a new account and delete this one
after copying everything over. I feel at a certain point with Windows you just
have to let it wash over you, like a force of nature.

------
oscargrouch
The current trends on Browsers and OS´s is one of the things that drive me to
try to create first what the next iteration over a platform like browsers,
based on organic p2p tecnologies should look like, and then iterate a little
more and create a optional OS on top of it.

I hope that in a couple of months i can launch this platform here on HN so i
can see what you all think, as i have a great respect for the community formed
here.

But we need to not rely on companies that tend to make a profit from the cloud
computing, analitics, big data and of what people make and publish for free,
if we really want to have our privacy and our freedoms in general, respected
in the end.

Anyone that can sum 2 + 2 can see how this can lead to severe consequences
into our private lives, and civil liberties in the end if we keep following
this path. As we might be only depending of the good will of the status-quo
that can change depending on the political context of du-jour. (And i must
remind you all that this good will and the more generous environment might
reach to an end, as the circustances may lead to economical and political
crysis, environmental crysis, shortage of primary resources, political
instabilities, war, or just a simple power-hungry drive to control all things)

The problem is that only the political/social point of view is not enough, as
we need to respond with a technology good enough, or even better, in a way the
end users, and the devs will be naturally inclined to use the platform to
reach their own personal goals.

And it´s my believe that organic, p2p forms of content distribution and
communication in general, can deliver a superior environment compared to what
we have today with browsers. And even if the big players could create
themselves this kind of platform, they would not want to, because in the end
they are trying to reach absolute control of our data, and our digital
representation of life.

The trick is to have the right building blocks carefully combined to make it
work in a way that it will make people want to develop for it from the
perspective of the devs, and to use it as a medium from the perspective of the
users.

------
antif
Can Chrome OS get some of this criticism too??

Trying to setup one of those without a Google account taking 'ownership' of
the machine first... isn't possible.

~~~
_trampeltier
Android too. I can't make guest accounts on my phone .. the menu for it is
just missing on my phone .. no idea why

------
starsinspace
I really don’t understand Microsoft on this and related stuff like the forced
telemetry.

Why are they doing it? Is the little bit of user data really _that_ valuable?
Is it worth it to piss off so many of their users? Are they aware how it makes
privacy-focussed Apple and Linux alternatives seem more appealing?

It’s sad because from a technology and UI perspective, I really like Win 10.
But they just _have_ to ruin it somehow...

~~~
seieste
The user experience doesn’t matter that much, because the primary target of
Windows is businesses, governments, etc. who buy in bulk and can be persuaded
by Microsoft sales teams.

Considering that Mac systems (the only alternative with support for Excel and
Word) are so much more expensive than comparable Windows systems, and it’s
clear why companies use Windows.

And that doesn’t even take into account that most consumers are entirely
unaware of the privacy implications of telemetry and online accounts.

So, Microsoft can just get away with this kind of stuff.

------
vbezhenar
Just turn off the Internet while you're installing Windows. No Internet, no
clouds.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
According to the article, this was quite literally the _only_ way to create a
local account at setup in 1809. That shouldn't happen.

------
ape4
What happens to a Microsoft login when you aren't online?

~~~
withinrafael
A local account is still created and used to log into the machine.

------
KayL
And they asked you to set a 4-numbers PIN to login. (nums by default)

------
temac
Is forcing the use of online account compliant with GDPR?

If not (or unsure), how do we report it?

------
jackewiehose
Windows 10 is a sad joke of an operating system. It does not even deserve the
name "operating system".

An operating system should be able to operate the system for weeks without
automatic reboots.

An operating system should never ever just wake up from sleep on its own to
install updates (with the potential to set my house on fire if the laptop is
in a bag or something).

An operating system should not lie to it's users and trick them to sign up for
online-cloud-stuff.

~~~
pmelendez
That's a very unusual definition of OS. Last time I checked the operating
system was any piece of software that worked as an abstraction for the
underlying hardware. Your list looks more like a wish list instead of OS
requirements.

~~~
jackewiehose
It was more a list of expectations I have from a desktop-OS.

Those expectations arose because since I was a kid on DOS or Amiga, this is
what I learned what an OS is: You turn on your computer, the OS lets you run
an program. You exit the program and turn off the computer.

Windows 10 broke this simple contract.

