
Young and unafraid of the pandemic? Good for you. Now stop killing people - pseudolus
https://www.newsweek.com/young-unafraid-coronavirus-pandemic-good-you-now-stop-killing-people-opinion-1491797
======
34679
If Merkel's assertion that 60%-70% of the population in Germany will be
infected is accurate, and we end up with similar numbers in the US, the math
is pretty stunning.[1] With a US population of 330,000,000, we end up with
198,000,000 infected, using the lower estimate of 60%.[2] A study in China
concluded a 2.4% mortality rate and the WHO reported 3.4% among reported
cases.[3][4]

Using a (hopefully not) conservative 1% mortality rate, we're talking about
1,980,000 dead Americans. That's more than the American Revolution, the Civil
War, WWI, WWII, the Vietnam War, the Middle East wars, and indeed every other
military conflict the US has engaged in since 1775.. combined.[5] And not just
a bit more, it's roughly 3 times as many as all US combat fatalities since the
beginning of our country.

[1] [https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/11/angela-merkel-most-people-
wi...](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/11/angela-merkel-most-people-will-get-the-
coronavirus.html) [2][https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-
population...](https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population/)
[3][http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-
perspective/2020/02/study-720...](http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-
perspective/2020/02/study-72000-covid-19-patients-finds-23-death-rate)
[4][https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1234872254883909642](https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1234872254883909642)
[5][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualt...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war)

~~~
Balgair
That's ~670 9/11 attacks' worth of dead.

~350x the number of deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan.

~10x the Civil War.

~3x the yearly heart disease deaths.

~1 death every 0.75 seconds

And this'll occur before June, and something like this will reoccur every year
(is that right?!).

If this thing is anywhere near 1% mortality, the US really is in for a tough
time.

Yeah, you're right, that is _stunning_

I really need to call my folks now.

~~~
kilotaras
> and something like this will reoccur every year (is that right?!).

No. Once you are one of those 60% you either die or get immunity.

~~~
tsbinz
It depends. The seasonal flu mutates enough between seasons that last year's
immunity doesn't help you much. If we're lucky, this one doesn't do that, or
it mutates in a way that symptoms aren't as severe (since causing the host to
die or to be isolated in ICU is also bad for the virus, so there's
evolutionary pressure towards less severe symptoms).

~~~
sgt101
This isn't flu, Corona's don't mutate in this way.

~~~
mpol
There are many weaker coronaviruses floating around that give the common cold.
We are still getting the common cold from those, so apparently it mutates in a
way that our immmunesystem can't stop it.

~~~
bmn__
It's complicated.
[https://doi.org/10.1093/nsr/nwaa036](https://doi.org/10.1093/nsr/nwaa036)

------
sli
This is real easy to say to people who largely don't get sick days, oftentimes
don't have PTO, and are far more likely to be unable to absorb a week without
pay. If I take off work because I'm sick, I simply lose that money. Young
people continue life like nothing is wrong because doing otherwise is not an
option.

~~~
volkk
you're focusing only on one uncontrollable thing. the point is to be
responsible and lower as much as possible the daily contact you have with
people for a while. there are plenty of yuppies where I live who still dont
mind going to extremely hot and packed yoga classes, or going out to bars or
partying, etc etc. none of that is required, at all, in your daily life.

~~~
manicdee
This article is exclusively about young people, not middle aged folks with the
money for things like yoga classes and a social life outside the workplace.

------
pengaru
It does seem kind of karmic through the lens of NIMBY older folks have been
making it impossible for younger generations to buy/build homes near them, and
now they want the young whipper snappers to care about their welfare.

Maybe the best way to become a home owner in SF in the near future is to run
around infecting everyone there ASAP.

(In case it's not obvious, I'm mostly kidding)

~~~
Nuzzerino
> Maybe the best way to become a home owner in SF in the near future is to run
> around infecting everyone there ASAP.

Maybe this outbreak is the first of more to come and that this is actually a
wake-up call that we _shouldn 't_ be glorifying or desiring residence in such
densely populated areas like we have been.

~~~
Consultant32452
People comparing it to the flu do have one thing right. This will likely be a
new ever-present thing in our lives with rapid mutation and seasonal
outbreaks. USUALLY these things get less deadly over time due to evolutionary
pressures. It will be interesting to see if this has lasting impacts on our
social norms and, like you mentioned, desire for high density living.

~~~
atomi
Edit: I just looked this up and MERS is still around as well. 2019 had 212
confirmed worldwide cases.

Epidemiology:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_respiratory_syndro...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_respiratory_syndrome#Epidemiology)

This is from 2015: [https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-33042036/south-
korea-...](https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-33042036/south-korea-starts-
mers-containment-strategy)

------
kick
Modern _Newsweek_ is just the print-equivalent of a radio station that only
features shock jocks.

They weren't always this bad: they used to be quite good. At some point within
the past twenty years, they got restructured pretty heavily. Now it's more or
less the same as any old rag.

They're at least willing to air views on any side of the aisle; they'll take
anyone, as long as they're as simple-minded and as vitriolic as the average
_Newsweek_ reader.

Actually, it _is_ just like radio.

~~~
dv_dt
Newsweek is a dead, empty brand at this point. A badge that gets passed from
owner to owner.

[https://nypost.com/2020/02/14/ex-newsweek-owner-dodges-
jail-...](https://nypost.com/2020/02/14/ex-newsweek-owner-dodges-jail-after-
pleading-guilty-in-money-laundering-scandal/)

------
stetrain
Lots of reacting to the title here. Which, granted, is sensationalist.

I think this nicely sums up the article's point:

"It's the civic and moral duty of every person, everywhere, to take part in
the global effort to reduce this threat to humanity. To postpone any movement
or travel that are not vitally essential, and to spread the disease as little
as possible. Have your fun in June, July and August when this—hopefully—is
over. Stay safe. Good luck."

In other words, it's not "this is young people's fault" but "just because you
are young doesn't mean you should ignore this"

~~~
maerF0x0
> civic and moral duty of every person

According to which canon? I find it slightly narcissistic to claim that I
would have a moral right to someone else's behavior when it's well within my
ability to take preventative steps for my own safety (Wash my hands, dont
leave my house, and in between as my risk tolerance allows).

It's a little like someone saying "You all owe me X because I exist". Do we
also owe it to the immunocompromised?

~~~
r3xpi
This feels like a knee jerk reaction formulated from a privileged perspective
that believes that all beings’ lives are the same- or have the potential to be
the same- as your own.

Do you owe it to the immunocompromised? As such an individual, I do not
believe I am owed anything of any stripe by anybody.

However, as a human being and good citizen, I do believe I owe it to those in
my community to do my best to ensure we have a safe, healthy, and thriving
community. Rampantly- or willingly to use less charged verbiage- spreading a
novel virus that is extremely deadly to certain segments or demographics of my
community seems antithetical to that.

As a contra argument, I am capable of reliably and safely operating a vehicle
at 95 mph- why should I be expected to observe speed limit laws that are
intended to protect those that cannot? Does that make the law abiding drivers
narcissistic?

Lastly, have you considered the impact on community services that widespread
disablement of the workforce due to illness could have?

It may very well touch your life in a big way.

Edit: grammar.

~~~
maerF0x0
> I do believe I owe it to those in my community to do my best to ensure we
> have a safe, healthy, and thriving community

This is a collectivist morality that not everyone shares. I would argue that
American culture is fairly anti-collectivist (at least as I've observed today)

I, however, agree with the general sentiment that others' welfare may be in
the individual best interest so maybe that's the avenue to persuade
individualist.

------
dengul13
To the people here with older parents (70+), there's another thing you can do:

Call your parents. Tell them they need to take this seriously, because they
are the ones most likely to die from this virus.

Tell them that while average mortality rates may be low, it is highly
dependend on age. Dr. Drosten of Charité in Berlin estimates mortality from
corona in people aged >80 to be around 25%.

Tell them that exponential growth always looks harmless at first but that this
exponential growth is also what makes atomic bombs explode.

Tell them that dying from Corona means dying alone.

The last point finally convinced them to stay at home.

~~~
3JPLW
> Tell them that while average mortality rates may be low, it is highly
> dependend on age.

Mortality rates are also highly dependent upon healthcare system capacity —
especially so for elderly and at-risk, because they're the ones more likely to
require hospitalization to survive.

------
cadence-
It would be worth mentioning in the article that in the US your sick off days
usually are deducted from your vacation days. This makes many people reluctant
to stay home if they cannot work remotely.

~~~
Frost1x
That's only the tip of the iceberg.

So many people don't even have sick leave and are working paycheck to paycheck
drowning in debt.

People in the US are essentially doing what they're told to or permitted to
under their current financial and employment situations from my anecdotal
observations. Very few have the option to forgo their work activities (public
transit commuting, wide exposure in service industries, etc.).

Don't point the finger at the US at large, point the finger at US leadership
that's more concerned about next quarter's ROI and less on the health of the
country. Most people I've talked to have been limiting their exposure and
intentionally distancing themselves from the more elderly and or
immunocompromised population when they can.

------
eranima
Blaming young people seems stupid considering that everybody can spread the
virus. This ageist nonsense isn't going to help stop the virus.

~~~
stetrain
The point is that young people are more likely to think "Oh this won't affect
me, I'll continue as normal" because the severity and mortality of this
illness is statistically higher for older people.

I don't see it as blaming young people, just pointing out that even if you
aren't in the statistically "at risk" part of the age curve, you can still
play a part in the spread and effects of this epidemic.

~~~
antonzabirko
The article should've shed light on what govts can do better, not what
individuals can. That's where the blame lies.

~~~
lostcolony
Who is more likely to read and listen to a Newsweek article, an arbitrary
individual reading the article making a decision for themselves, or a
governmental policy maker when deciding what to tell the country?

~~~
antonzabirko
You can choose to be a part of this, but it's the same logic as blaming the
poor for societal issues or Muslims for terrorism.

~~~
stetrain
If not being poor was as simple as washing your hands and avoiding necessary
travel then that might have more merit.

It's quite possible for both "the systemic response is inadequate" and "we
should not take personal actions that cause unnecessary risk for others when
possible" to both be true and fit in one's head at the same time. One does not
negate the other.

~~~
antonzabirko
Agree, BUT the media only has so much attention. Use it for chastising the
govt.

------
swayvil
We are telling a billion impoverished millennial-somethings that they can
murder their wealthy elders with minimal risk and guilt.

Heck, there's a whole generation of food-service workers who couldn't take a
sick-day even if they wanted to. Will they weep if that pizza kills a retired
plutocrat?

~~~
mercer
I'm not even entirely unsympathetic to that line of thought, but the big
problem is that my parents and grandparents are in the risk group too, and
they're in no way in the 'I got mine', 'Ok Boomer', 'fuck your future and fuck
the environment' cohort.

And I suspect many of the 'elderly' that I don't personally care about are
similarly innocent.

~~~
swayvil
Well ya, of course, many that we care about and/or innocent in that group.

But among the young we will see a lot of, "I'm pretty stoned, working a double
shift and got the sniffles. Did I remember to wipe that pan? Ahhh fuck the
boomers!"

This isn't a clear-thinking kind of situation.

------
dallas_
The title of this is clearly supposed to be clickbait but what I find
interesting from personal (23, London) experience is that most people my age
are taking this seriously in the sense we recognise it can get worse and are
taking sensible precautions (hand sanitiser, I know a few people self-
isolating just in case).

While a few days ago I was speaking to a Primary school teacher friend of my
parents, who claimed that because the UK "only has a couple hundred cases,
it's not worth worrying about at all" the angle of "Oh i've seen virus' before
and it was okay" was very apparent.

Now I know these are 2 personal anecdotes but I do wonder if generally it
could be the opposite of what the title suggests, people my age have faint
memories of Swine Flu but not much before that so I feel like we could be
taking it more seriously

Of course there are "Well it'll kill all the boombers so it's good" jokes
going around, but they're exactly that a joke, for the generation that called
millenials snowflakes some (I believe a minority personally) can't really take
a joke

------
glouwbug
Auto play videos make me instantly hit the back button

~~~
samschooler
Firefox auto blocking of video and audio is one of my favorite settings

------
tra3
> Do not go to places where you are more than 20 people in the same room. It's
> not safe and it's not worth it.

Why 20? Is this simply about reducing exposure to potential carriers?

~~~
lostcolony
Arbitrary number, but yes. Network effects. The more people, the more likely
one has the virus, and the more people likely to be affected by it, and thus
carry it to still more places.

~~~
logfromblammo
If the virus has spread to 0.01% of the population (33k cases), a stadium with
6932 people in it has a 50% chance of having at least one infected person in
it (assuming uniform distribution).

If the virus has spread to 0.1% of the population (330k cases), an auditorium
with 693 people in it has a 50% chance of having at least one infected person
in it.

If the virus has spread to 1% of the population (3.3M cases), a cafeteria with
69 people in it has a 50% chance of having an infected person.

If the virus has spread to 10% of the population (33M cases), a house or
office with 7 people in it has a 50% chance of having an infected person.

If the virus has spread to 50% of the population (165M cases), a fortified
secret bunker with 1 person in it has a 50% chance of having an infected
person.

But if that bunker dweller hunkered down back when the spread was only at
0.01%, not only would they have less chance of being infected themselves, they
would also not be potentially spreading it to others. So it pays to start
limiting contacts earlier.

~~~
lostcolony
We don't know the actual number, and the minimum (i.e., the number we know of)
is constantly in flux, so any number derived from those is wrong. The 'safe'
percentage chance of someone with the virus being in the room with you is
definitely arbitrary. So...arbitrary. Yes, you can run statistics to say that
"well, we made a bunch of assumptions and came up with a specific number", but
most of those assumptions are arbitrary.

------
LordHumungous
Old people still need a functioning society and economy right? So therefore
maybe it makes sense for the less vulnerable people to keep doing things.

~~~
jeffadotio
This is the exact attitude described as being destructive in the article. It
is also plainly illogical. It is so obviously illogical that it is boring. By
doing normal things one spreads the virus, killing people and grinding
businesses to a halt. This argument boils down to stopping deaths by
increasing infection rates.

~~~
LordHumungous
If the economy collapses our ability to contain the virus will be severely
diminished.

------
earthwrldshaman
28 yr old here, I work in the valley, havent been to work since last monday.
And starting this monday, have only gone out one time, for a jog at the local
track, where social distancing I guess more or less upholds itself amidst
maybe 10 - 15 people max, spread out while walking or running the track.

------
aazaa
It's easy to understand how Europeans look at Americans is if they're brain-
dead. However, the article does nothing to support the thesis that young
people in particular are killing other people.

It may be true. If so, including evidence to that effect would make a better
article.

~~~
acqq
> the article does nothing to support the thesis that young people in
> particular are killing other people.

It is very simple: from the pool of "all people" in any big enough area (e.g.
a small city) those who will catch the virus, be able to spread it to others
and will not develop significant symptoms, most of them will be very young.
The older one is, more chance is that he _will_ have strong symptoms (like not
being able to breathe).

So any young person which doesn't "feel" being ill who continues to live
"normally" \-- meaning contacting other people like always, as in "going out"
at the evening or whatever -- is a strong transmitter of the same virus that
is actively killing older people.

Which all doesn't mean that _older_ people who also behave like "nothing is
happening" aren't also spreading the virus... and also, effectively, killing
people.

The biggest point is: please don't behave like "it's nothing."

~~~
paulmd
Disproportionately, it is the olds who are behaving like nothing is happening.
They are the ones consuming the cable news that is framing it as "wash your
hands and everything will be fine!".

Youngs generally accept that these large-scale phenomenon are real. We are
just also powerless to change them, because politics are dominated by centrist
olds who just don't want their 401k to go down too much.

Yes, you should wash your hands, but that's not going to have much of an
impact on an aerosolized respiratory virus. Individual action has a very
limited impact on these giant, planet-wide phenomena. A very large number of
people are going to get coronavirus unless there are state or country-scale
interventions like mass quarantines. It's not our fault that the bigger
actions aren't being taken. Youngs wield extremely little political power (in
significant part thanks to ourselves and our own unwillingness to vote).

See also: climate change, gun violence, pollution, etc etc. These are large
problems that youngs accept and olds stonewall collective action on, instead
pushing bullshit "individual responsibility" narratives with no realistic
chance of solving the problem.

~~~
acqq
> the ones consuming the cable news that is framing it as "wash your hands and
> everything will be fine!".

It was sad to watch that: both sides of political spectrum have had their own
motives to downplay the issue and therefore postpone the necessary political
actions -- and for these, obviously, the youngest can not be responsible.

Both sides behave so, of course, "because economy" but there are other motives
around as well.

In reality being complacent seem to already result in bigger problems than the
isolation measures alone would. Italy is an obvious example.

I agree, there are indeed some similarities with the climate change problems.

------
maximente
why isn't the author pointing fingers at the EU?

Italy cannot control its own currency so it's at the behest of the ECB when it
comes to supporting banks, citizen bail outs, etc. the ECB is still in
"monitoring mode", whatever that means. also recall Italy has been in various
austerity-like periods for some time now. is Brussels sending in staff and
building emergency facilities to help out its struggling member?

so what gives? is the ECB going to backstop Italian banks/businesses? directly
inject capital a la what the US Federal Reserve ostensibly could (will) do?
how about other member nations e.g. Germany?

------
antonzabirko
Those damn poor people at it again! They should be ashamed!

At the rink of someone missing my message: blame the causes, not the victims.
Govts and certain individuals are to blame for killing the old ladies, not
some college student.

------
haunter
Brought you buy the Newesweek of "OK, Millennial: Boomers Are the Greatest
Generation in History" [https://www.newsweek.com/2020/03/13/ok-millennial-
boomers-ar...](https://www.newsweek.com/2020/03/13/ok-millennial-boomers-are-
greatest-generation-history-1490819.html)

~~~
yellowapple
God damn. I've seen some pretty thoroughly wrong articles before, but that one
takes the cake.

------
cadence-
All the “rich media” on that website makes me cringe. And I think I just blew
past my monthly mobile data limit just to read this article. Horrible.

~~~
x3n0ph3n3
Newsweek is garbage, and has been at least since they "outed" "Satoshi
Nakamoto".

------
starpilot
Switzerland is currently ok, but now I am thinking of canceling my trip.

~~~
bkyan
Depends on your definition of okay, I suppose, but 75 cases per million people
seems pretty high to me. China is only at 56 cases per million people. Source:
[https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/)

------
Combatvetelvbra
I just spent alot of my time reading the thread here, it's 3:10a.m. here in
the Midwest. I gotta say, some get it, some simply want to put heads in the
sand. My own brother, me being the oldest of 8, has a kid on the way, is a
paramedic, lives in our home state of GA. He's a paramedic. I called to let
him know my concerns and he brushed me off. Let's say it bugged me abit. My
grandparents are innocent, in their late 70's and early 80's. Here locally, in
MO, in my area, I've tried to tell people to do this/that, be reasonable, help
out if possible, etc. Hoarding is ridiculous though, stealing, only the
beginning. I was in the service for 8yrs, 2 deployments, seen the worst in
people in war. I gotta say, at my point in life, at the early years of my
middle age, I've got kidney problems so my doctor told me to stay indoors
which I usually do anyway, had to stop working for myself so it's just my wife
making most of the money right now. It's hard on everyone. When I hear the
term "young & old people" I roll my eyes, it's everyone, younger, middle, old
folks. If the U.S. where I live, loses almost 2 million people, and many of
them are oldest, well, I can't lie, those who have the money/power who've been
doing us in before even I was born, for too long, for those types, good
riddance. For those like my grandparents and others I don't know, they're
innocent. Just as the rest of us are who are being cautious, like I am. My
wife has a protocol I've given her, something similar to how the military does
things. Hard to let go of many years doing things a certain way with vet's
like myself. Whether or not things are followed or not, if we lose that many
people, we'll see what we see. I see it day/day. And I got no proof, just a
theory, based on what I've seen in the field by merc's, and then the Chinese,
some of them, blaming our U.S. Army when some went to an event there in China
back late last year for doing this to them, I hold down my stance that the
U.S. Govt did this by sending a team out there dressed in our uniforms, but
them being merc's, they don't care, they'll still be safe and secure for the
money. No ROE, nothing. I've seen it too much. For the rest of everyone, just
stay safe and try to minimize contact. Washing hands alot, etc. My life is
mid-way over and I'd like to make it to 50, if I can. I'm not far from that.
We live paycheck to paycheck as most do here, but, at least the electric
company here is suspending and forgiving late payments and so on. Then we're
about to hit flood season here, it's already rising. It happens alot here,
it'll make this worse too. My neighbor, one of several, lost his job for the
time due to it being in the restaurant business. My wife's job has cut out all
70+ patients and instead, are doing things over the Skype and stuff for
visits. Everyone else is being tested for fever as they come there before
entering. Smart. Yet, no security. I'm speaking more about localized issues
here, but we just got 10 new cases confirmed nearby in the county my wife
works in. The Rolling Stones aren't coming here now, for now, because of this.
All things considered, my theory, my position to be safe and smart and not be
ridiculous when it comes to buying products, which we're already experiencing
a shortage of, is to ration and keep those hands and feet clean. Keep uniforms
from work separate from your people at home as my wife is doing now. We'll see
what we see, as another put it, it's a number's game, time will tell, the
virus will eventually burn itself down to a point that normality, whatever you
want to call that, will come back. The Guard has been on alert, as all states
here are on state emergencies. I've been hearing of forced removal though,
some being asked to leave too, don't know all the facts on that yet, but I'm
tracking this. I see locally how some people think this is just a "cold" &
nothing more. Okay, well, we'll see. I already know it's not, so at least here
locally some folks are listening to people like me. I am no scientist, but,
I'm not stupid, been in the field, had to help injured folks from the enemy
trying to kill us, etc. I expect the worst, hope for the best. Stay safe
everyone.

------
atoav
Please note: this isn't my own opinion, read this as you would a dystopian
science fiction lore

A month ago when I read that the Virus improportionally affects older people,
I had a short thought about a movement of young people who embrace the virus
against the Boomers. This doesn't exist to my knowledge, but it wouldn't
surprise me if it would.

If I follow that strain of fantasy for a moment, a cynic would argue: only
once the old, many and poltical established Boomers are affected drastic
measures happen. That is why the climate crisis didn't produce tangible
results. As a rich person you can mitigate against many problems a climate
crisis brings, that is harder with a virus. As a old person you will be dead
once the most disturbing consequences of global warming start to really hit
home, but a virus that can end your life right now is something different.

If we take a utilitarian perspective and do what prevents most suffering. And
the empathic and intuitive thing is to avoid as much human suffering as
possible _now_ , but what if our inaction today creates magnitudes more
suffering tomorrow? Wouldn't it then be justified to view it as some sort of
poetic justice when a virus specifically hits the older generations who's
political interests prevent real solutions to even bigger existential
questions that are _global_ in the truest sense of the word?

------
frozenlettuce
Ok, so the pandemic became a Boomers vs Millenials issue?

------
vernie
Is this from the same issue as the "OK, Millennial: Boomers Are the Greatest
Generation in History" piece?

~~~
XorNot
Wait is this a real article? Because wow...

~~~
keeganjw
Yep, it read like an Onion article and they made it the cover of their
magazine.

------
keeganjw
They make a good point in this article, I just wish Newsweek and other media
outlets would get this pissed off about climate change. "Old and unafraid of
the climate crisis? Good for you. Now stop killing future generations." If
we're mobilizing to stop a pandemic, why the hell aren't we mobilizing to stop
climate change?

I know this is going to get downvoted into oblivion, I just wanted to say it.

~~~
cmrdporcupine
I was making a related comment to my coworkers earlier this week: if the stock
market is this freaked about covid19, just wait til investors realize climate
change is real and it will be hard to make money while NYC is flooded and
nobody wants to buy oil anymore.

~~~
travisoneill1
At this point we have had 1C of warming, and the economic effects have been
minimal. The most aggressive IPCC model shows another 1C by 2050. So that's
double the warming. What will the economic damage be? Probably more than 2x,
but almost certainly not 100x, which is what it would take to have a
meaningful impact on the economy. This is why the market isn't worried about
it.

------
throwaway1777
Ok boomer.

~~~
dang
Please don't do this here.

