
Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason - guybrushT
I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason except  being told that &quot;our plans changed&quot;.<p>I joined as employee #1 of a YC startup. I spent a week working with them before joining. They liked me, and I liked them. I officially joined as the COO. Deal was to work remotely, till we all figured out the visa.<p>And then, suddenly I was told over a ‘catch-up call’, that they have to rethink the hiring decision because they really needed someone with a different skill set. The conversation was friendly and polite.<p>Now <i>finger snap</i> - just like that – I am out! Specifically, I was politely asked to leave. Its the strangest experience of my life. They keep reiterating that its not performance related. I believe it.<p>The problem is:  
- I let all job offers go (I had a few good ones)  
- Told my friends&#x2F;family about the job, and that I will be moving to America  
- Reached out to all my contacts (including everyone who was trying to hire me) and attempted to sign them up for this YC service  
- I reached out to several people (e.g. at Google, FB, Partners at a management consultancy (i.e. my former employers)) asking them for a potential   investment into this company (&quot;Use our personal networks&quot; was a key strategy), some of these helped me find a job that I turned down<p>I like the founders - they are good guys. I may even understand that they need someone else, but personally that has left me with few options and in a bit of a depressed state! For my wife, this was such a huge decision (to join a startup and move to another country), and it was just awkward to convince her first, and give her the news.<p>I am not being very articulate about why this sucks – but any help&#x2F;advice would be awesome. I have a masters in CS, a failed startup and 6 yrs of management consulting behind me.<p>Edit: Thank you. Thank you for the wonderful support and advice. I called my wife and showed her this thread! We are going through every word. We are very touched by the amount of concern and positivity here! Thanks.
======
jvagner
I've been a CTO/CEO and have hired many people over time. Some of this has
already been said, but:

1\. Those jobs may still be open, reasonable people wouldn't hold taking
another job against you. Work is work, and those who step back into discussion
with you will show you a reasonableness that you will value more than before.

2\. Situations like this is why sign-ing bonuses were invented. If you're COO
of anything, you should also be able to negotiate a proper separation
agreement, something like 6 months severance after 6 months of service. The
signing bonus covers the initial bump, and then everyone has a window to see
if things are copacetic. After that, it's a real relationship with
consequences for dissolution.

3\. You should be interviewing and considering companies as much as they're
evaluating you. There's gotta be more to this story, some of which may be
evident as you ponder what really happened. You've gotta develop that
antennae. Asking to speak to a company's founders or advisors is a reasonable
thing to do, certainly for a COO role that involves international relocation.

4\. The "best guys" I've ever worked for f*cked me or our companies over. It's
an important qualification to an extent, but character and vision and
stability are secondary factors that will wag the dog, so to speak. Especially
in startups. Startups are risky, and not always due to market forces or the
brilliance of the business idea. Give yourself a good long notch in your work
belt.

~~~
danielweber
This might be a derail, but what is the normal procedure by which one
negotiates for a signing bonus or a severance package? Some sample verbiage
would be nice.

~~~
mbesto
Depends on the country (UK for example, severance is more or less required by
law). In the US, I would suggest something along the lines of: (if it's in
written form)

Signing bonus: [brackets is some notes]

 _" Dear CEO,

I appreciate the offer of COO for X amount. [be polite] I've taken some
careful consideration over the role and what it entails for me personally.
[remind them you're a human] I've reviewed not only this offer but many others
that have come as a result of my merit, ambition, and drive to enable the
success of any organization. [remind them why they hired you and why its gonna
change their world] I am prepared to move forward with you and your team,
however ask that a bonus upon signage be applied to my overall compensation
package. [in general, I would suggest leaving out the "why" \- let them ask
you personally and then go into convo]"_

Severance: [brackets is some notes]

 _" Dear CEO/HR person,

I appreciate that a decision was made regarding the future of my relationship
with the business and you've done everything in your power to ensure that I
walk away standing proud of my merits. [be polite and thank them for being
nice people] Unfortunately, as demonstrated by your actions to let me go, I am
not a match for the future success of XYZ company. I would, however appreciate
some form of severance upon my departure. As you can imagine, having
unexpected circumstances can lead to personal hardship. This situation is
clearly not ideal in the short term for me and my family. [remind them you're
human] Any appreciation and goodwill you may have towards my situation will go
a long way. Thank you for your time"_

Note - these are nowhere near perfect or will ever be contextually correct,
but are a good starting point.

------
fpgeek
I'm a bit surprised no one has suggested what I consider the most likely
possibility: They had no idea what getting you a visa actually entailed and
bailed once you started and they discovered how hard it would be. I'm leaning
that way because most people don't understand how hard visas actually are, the
way they were vague about their reasons and the timing. Of course, if that's
what actually happened, not telling you the truth would immediately take them
out of "good guy" bucket.

Other than that, I agree with everyone who is saying to get back in touch with
the offers you turned down. Even if they've all hired someone else already,
talking to people who wanted to hire you in the recent past is a great way to
kick off a job search.

~~~
yardie
I also believe it is the visa issue. You're the COO and they are just going to
figure out the visa situation, eventually? A small company doesn't have the
money to get an E-visa and as COO you probably wouldn't qualify as H1B nor
would you want to be when they start doing funding rounds.

~~~
troebr
What kind of visa could you qualify for as a COO?

~~~
tonyhb
It's not necessarily based on your title. When I went through the process, it
boils down to:

\- Do you have a degree, and experience? Great. Is someone willing to
advertise the job to American citizens for a month or so, interview good
potential candidates beforehand, and still want you? Even better. Now, just
wait for next year's allocation of visa's and you might grab one on the day
they're released. Then, wait between 1 and 8 years for your visa to be
processed (while the job is still available) and you're allowed to work here.

\- Are you an exceptional alien? Well, do you judge other's work, have papers
written, have competed in a globally recognised event for your work, or some
other proof of your excellence? Yes? Great, we can apply, but there's only a
limited number of visas. Wait a year.

It's really, really tough. Not many of us make it. I had a few job offers
moving over here but was only able to move here because my wife was American.
And getting her back to the UK is also no easy feat.

Despite being globally connected the visa process still sucks.

~~~
potatolicious
> _" Is someone willing to advertise the job to American citizens for a month
> or so, interview good potential candidates beforehand, and still want you?"_

You're confusing H-1B visas with green card applications.

This isn't relevant to work visas, only relevant to permanent residency
applications. The H-1B visa does not require exhausting locals before hiring
foreigners, all it needs is to demonstrate competence and education.

Ditto the waiting years part, work visas do not take years, permanent
residency permits do.

The H-1B visa is very, _very_ easy to apply so long as the candidate has at
least a recognized bachelor's degree. The real downside to H-1B is that it's
subject to annual caps, and therefore timing is inconvenient. The visas are
valid starting October of that year, but must be applied for before the quota
is exhausted. This historically is somewhere between April and August of that
year.

Not to mention once you have it the visa is portable between employers with
none of the above restrictions. It's definitely not ideal, but working in the
US is not nearly as hard as you're making it out to be.

~~~
tonyhb
Ah yeah. The advertising isn't, you're right. The wait is, though; visa
allotments run out fast. Apologies for getting confused.

In some cases you're not applicable for a H1-B (I was a dropout) so my only
route was another type which had a several year waiting list. Can't remember
the visa name right now, I'll do some googling though.

------
itodd
You are not fucked. Just breathe. Think about it this way, It's likely that
this start up will not be around for long if they make such poor decisions
with their most important asset. No matter how you think about it, a very poor
decision was made.

You have a masters in CS and 6 years of management experience. You are so far
from fucked.

~~~
rubiquity
This. You'll have another job sooner than you think. A lesson that I picked up
from some people I respect is that they don't announce big life/job changes to
non-family/extremely close friends until they've already been in that change
for 1-3 months.

Also I wouldn't give the Founders the benefit of the doubt of being "good
people." Even if they are a YC startup, morons come in all shapes and sizes so
even YC isn't moron-free. And yes, only a moron makes decisions to hire people
that will have to go through a lot of change to take the job without being
absolutely positively sure that they are the right person.

This sounds like an episode of "Hire Slow, Fire Fast", which is a cool way of
saying: "We fucked up. Abort! Abort! Abort!" Despite how nice they are being
to your face, they've realized for some valid-to-them reason that they made a
mistake in hiring you. Don't take it personally, just get back on the horse.

------
zetazzed
(1) Be very happy that this happened before you actually uprooted your life
and moved to a new country, only to find yourself jobless there!

(2) Reach out again to the managers behind some of your past job offers. We
have hired people who previously passed on us then had the other gig fall
through or run out of funding. Many of those old offers will reappear and
you'll be fine.

~~~
danielweber
I'll repeat (2). Assuming you politely declined, those bridges are still
around. People get things yanked out from underneath them through no fault of
their own. If they went through the hiring process enough to decide that you
are a good candidate, the fact that they were your second choice shouldn't
upset them.

------
jbarmash
I am surprised nobody mentioned the YC Founder Code of Ethics from earlier
this year.

    
    
       http://www.ycombinator.com/ethics/
    

I'd argue these four bullet points are relevant:

\-- Treating co-founders and employees with fairness and respect.

\-- Not behaving in a way that damages the reputation of his/her company or of
YC.

\-- Keeping your word, including honoring handshake deals.

\-- Generally behaving in an upstanding way.

The OP made a serious accusation against a YC company. I assume YC can pretty
easily figure out which company this is. I would expect that YC would
investigate and take action if warranted.

~~~
poof131
I agree, especially based on pg's past comments on VCs and handshake deals.[1]
This was a handshake deal for employee number 1 and they screwed him. Why it
happened we don't know and it could be the right call for both parties. But
the manner it happened in is not acceptable behavior. The OP should be
compensated appropriately, money and equity.

[1]
[http://www.ycombinator.com/handshake/](http://www.ycombinator.com/handshake/)

------
festivusr
They are not good guys. They might be good guys in their personal life, but
hiring someone from outside the country, letting them cut ties, and then
laying them off immediately is not something a "good guy" does.

------
untog
If this is how the company goes about employing their first employee, I don't
think they will be around for long. You might have dodged a bullet.

If you got this job, it's extremely likely that you will get another. Don't
get me wrong, it's going to suck to explain to people you promoted the startup
to that you actually don't work there after all, but it's not the end of the
world.

~~~
bdcravens
_If this is how the company goes about employing their first employee, I don
't think they will be around for long._

Yes, if he truly wasn't a good fit, it sounds like they hired too quickly.

------
angilly
This happens a lot.

Mentor whiplash gets the founders all frothy that they need to do X, Y, and Z
_immediately_ or their company will fall apart. Unfortunately, it changes to
A, B, and C a week later after meetings with another 30 people. These founders
aren't bad people. They just have no idea what they're doing. They got shoved
into this crazy new accelerator experience, and they're being told by their
heroes that they need to XYZ and ABC immediately, and they freak out and they
make decisions too quickly.

Founders joining accelerators, do yourself a favor: the minute you think you
NEED to hire one of those first employees, wait a week. Wait 2. Chat with some
people informally. Don't setup a coffee meeting and ambush them with your
whole team. Just breathe and take your time. Building your team is the most
important thing you are ever going to do. This is not cliche. The process of
building one, especially that initial core team, should be respected. Talk to
some people. Do some contracts with them. Take it slow.

guybrushT, this sucks for you more than most given that you (and your wife!)
were moving from another country. The founders should have been more careful.
If you still wanna move to the states, I'd more than happy to introduce you to
a bunch of startups in Boulder. We're always looking for developers here.
Shoot me an email: ryan at ramen dot is.

------
mcguire
You _absolutely_ need to go back through your contacts and explain exactly
what happened. Especially to those who you advised to use this startup's
service and those you asked about potential investments. After hearing this
story, they may reconsider such involvement---I certainly would.

These are not "good guys". They are _at best_ short-sighted, unprepared, and
unprofessional. Hiring decisions are important and difficult; the best spin I
can see is that they do not know who they need and are very unprepared for
this step. (Want a worse spin? Someone they know has suddenly become available
and they wish to give them the employee #1/Coo badge.) This behavior is a big
red flag.

(I've been in similar situations before---I'm thinking of a research group at
ORNL right now---but rescinding an offer is significantly worse.)

As other people have said, don't worry about your personal situation. Most of
your contacts will likely have understood your original decision and find the
thing offensive as well.

On the other hand, I don't think you'll be able to convince your wife to move
to the US again. Tell her we're not all assholes, though.

------
balls187
Hypothetical to the larger HN community:

If you got accepted a job offer, and within 2 weeks got a job offer for more
money, and at your dream company, would you feel obligated to stay with your
initial decision?

If you made the rational (but arguably unethical choice), do you think your
reputation should be tarnished, and future employers think hard before
extending an offer?

I know it's not the exact situation as the OP, but situations are rarely so
straight forward, and often have nuances that we aren't aware of.

To the OP, at the very least, you probably dodged a bullet. So blessing in
disguise.

~~~
bjourne
No the situation isn't analogous at all because unexpectedly losing a job has
a much higher impact on a person than for a company to unexpectedly lose an
employer. A person is made of flesh and blood and can have his or her life
shattered. A company is an abstract entity defined by laws.

~~~
balls187
> losing a job has a much higher impact on a person than for a company to
> unexpectedly lose an employer

This is true, but not without context.

In my scenario above, the circumstances were similar. 2-3 weeks into a new
job.

Excluding someone who has been unemployed for an extended period of time, it
seems odd that in 2-3 weeks, losing your job would shatter their life.

\---

And I wouldn't exclude companies for being "shattered" either. It's very
possible for companies to be formed around the reputation of a single
individual, and if that individual left, would be shattering. Especially in
early stages of a financing round.

------
petercooper
_I officially joined as the COO._

So did you have an official contract, equity deal, etc? I doubt there's much
you can do about these decision not to take you on after all, you probably
need to grieve for the job and move on, but you should certainly hold them to
their legal obligations, especially if they had to give you notice (which they
should be paying you for).

~~~
danielweber
Even with an official contract, unless he was explicitly promised certain
things, he can still be let go.

American companies generally don't have any notice requirements. The fact that
he's overseas may create a liability for the company in that country, but they
probably don't care about that.

( _edit_ : They must absolutely pay him for hours worked.)

Assuming his options had vesting (which 'tptacek will remind us to always
have, so the YC company probably knows about that advice), he doesn't have any
equity.

I've seen this problem from a few sides, so OP has my sympathy, for whatever
it's worth. I've seen people laid off a week after joining when the adults
suddenly realized they were bleeding money. I very very recently saw someone
approved for a job and accept it, told to wait a few days while internal
funding moved around, and then suddenly the entire project was cancelled.

------
vuldin
While everyone understands there is an added level of uncertainty when taking
a start up position, your situation sounds more unusual than most considering
that it does little more than screws up your career and short term family
plans. You can't really say you worked at this company, you've already gone
through what sounds like a lengthy job search and turned down all positions
that came up besides this one, made plans with your family to move to the
States, and then a week after getting 'hired' you had to make other plans.

I'm not sure why you say you like the founders when they treat people like
this. This is a serious blow to your life that they are responsible for.

~~~
marauf
hmm .. I don't know. I feel differently. They may be nice people. But hiring
and firing is a purely business decision. It might be that they needed a
different skill set. Or had another candidate who was a lot cheaper. Investor
money drying up, lots of things. Its a job at the end of the day and he was
let go.

~~~
eropple
_> But hiring and firing is a purely business decision. ... Its a job at the
end of the day and he was let go._

I have a serious beef with this mode of thinking. Nothing that you do to
another human being is a "purely business decision." And from a practical
perspective it's better, in the long run, for you too to be remembered as
having owned your mistakes and done right by the people you wronged.

Of course, there is the line of thinking that, hey, this guy won't ever help
me later, so I can screw him and skate. And that is entirely too common in
startupland. But that speaks to the poor humanity of its thinker more than
anything else.

~~~
zem
agreed, "just business" is a horrible cop out, and it's sad that so many
people buy into it even when they are on the getting screwed end of the
equation.

------
balls187
> I let all job offers go (I had a few good ones)

Hopefully, when you turned down the job offer, you did so in a classy way. As
a hiring manager, if a candidate I extended an offer to, reach back out to me
after declining, and said their situation changed, I would consider making a
new offer. True you lose negotiating leverage, but I would expect a percentage
greater than 0 of companies that would re-engage with you.

> Told my friends/family about the job, and that I will be moving to America

This is a minor issue. Plans change. They'll get over it. Hopefully they
didn't throw you a going-away party yet :)

> Reached out to all my contacts (including everyone who was trying to hire
> me) and attempted to sign them up for this YC service

No good deed goes unpunished. But seriously, you did the right thing by trying
to help out this company. I don't see this as a problem.

> I reached out to several people (e.g. at Google, FB, Partners at a
> management consultancy (i.e. my former employers)) asking them for a
> potential investment into this company ("Use our personal networks" was a
> key strategy), some of these helped me find a job that I turned down

I'm sure those same potential investors will circle back around to you, and
decline investing, given that you are no longer with the company.

------
stevebot
Not to sound trite, but I wish I was in your shoes. You have a masters, 6
years of mgmt exp., and most importantly a wife that is _willing to pack up
everything and move_. That's awesome man, best of luck to you, you will be on
your feet soon.

~~~
guybrushT
Thanks! This is my wife's favourite comment. I wonder why. :)

------
TheMagicHorsey
Job offers don't disappear. Just go back to the other ones and see what is
still open.

~~~
wspeirs
Yea, in most cases a recruiter would be VERY happy to not have to try and find
someone else to fill the position. Granted, you're going not going to get the
same salary as before, but it's a start.

~~~
waterfowl
You're not going to get the same salary? Really? has the amount of value he
can provide decreased after his failed YC backed COO stint or is it just some
petty 'loyalty' thing? That would be insulting, especially because the
recruiter tends to get paid more if you do(so why would they do that?). I
don't doubt that there are people who would do that, but idk how they can they
get away with it in such a hot market for technical talent.

~~~
crpatino
Not his objective value (if there is such thing), but his sense of self worth
has. Recruiters are trained and drilled into exploit this kind of weaknesses.

~~~
notahacker
Your sense of self-worth (or solvency) has to be pretty shattered to accept
that you're worth less to a company than they offered you mere weeks ago.

If recruiters are trained to insult potential employees by making lower offers
than they earlier rejected, they deserve all the unfilled vacancies they're
going to get.

------
simonebrunozzi
Besides all the nice advice that others have added, I'll give you mine: talk
to a lawyer, and have him send physical letters to the company, and to YC.

The lawyer gives you two things:

1) He knows if you can be compensated for the damage;

2) It would give YC an opportunity to take care of this matter.

Oh, and by the way: I don't know their side of the story, therefore I don't
want to judge; however, it is very likely that they lied to you - letting
someone go after two weeks is weird, and I don't believe that "it's not about
you".

------
davemel37
Lots of back and forth about appearing like a bridge burner.

In truth though, regardless of the appearance, bridge burning is never a good
idea. NEVER.

I personally know a nursing home company that fired an employee in an
unprofessional way. 20 years later she became the person in charge of nursing
home licensing in that state. Guess whose licenses got revoked?! 20 years
later, millions of dollars in losses.

That story may be an outlier, I don't know... but a simple evaluation of the
risks and benefits of burning this bridge indicate very strongly that you
should not burn it.

The argument people make about "having the right to know." to be able to avoid
that company is really just self-serving curiosity. I am curious too.
But...it's really only appropriate to share that info. to an individual, in
private, if you feel they are truly at risk of the same unfair treatment.

Just my two cents.

------
smileysteve
Hey Man, that short term action on a perceived long term decision is rough.

Suggestions:

Know exactly what skill-set the founders were looking for; what lifestyle
choices they were looking for is probably also related. You can turn this into
a conversation that helps both parties ask better interview questions.

Ask that you stay on, making your salary for several weeks as a contractor. If
this isn't possible ask that you get paid reasonable living expenses for a few
weeks. This provides a little runway for your job search. (Be wary though that
this might raise your hopes.)

Always ensure that you get paid. For that one week before they hired you, for
the two weeks you were on.

For your network that you asked for investment from, you need to secure that
a) you are no longer part of that company b) if an investment is made, you
deserve an advisor's fee (5-10% pre round is typical)

------
tedchs
Sorry to hear about your situation. Unfortunately, this likely happens more
often than you'd like to think.

If I were in your shoes, I would immediately re-establish contact with the
recruiters who previously made you offers, and let them know you were
grievously misled by this other company, and you are interested to know if
their offer is still available.

You may also consider engaging a lawyer. If it were me, I would demand payment
for all time worked, plus additional monies to compensate you for your
opportunity cost of turning down these other offers, especially if you left a
previous job to work for these guys.

------
sama
hi there. could you email me? maybe i can help. sam@ycombinator

------
viggity
well, at the very least, I think it isn't out of the question to be asked to
be paid for those two weeks. If they made a mistake, shit happens, but they
should still be on the hook for it. I'd even consider asking for severance of
a couple weeks. They've hosed you, they should try to offset it a little bit.
I understand that it probably isn't about the money, but I would hope they at
least offered you that.

~~~
guybrushT
They have offered to pay me for the two weeks.

~~~
dragonwriter
They owe you pay for the two weeks plus penalties (equal to one days pay for
each day of delay) for not paying the final pay immediately at the time of
termination, so they are "offering" for you to forgo pay to which you are
legally entitled. See California Labor Code Secs. 201, 203.

EDIT: Though, the remote working arrangement and lack of US visa, even with
what appears to be, from the given description, a valid employment contract
(with offer, acceptance, and performance all having occurred) likely makes
this less clear cut and, in any case, makes _pursuing_ it more difficult,
costly, and time consuming.

------
felixbraun
"I decided to not participate in the startup I mentioned longterm and instead
reconsidered your offer from (a few weeks ago?). Coffee?"

------
comeonnow
What are your thoughts on not uprooting before you have a formal offer of
employment, and a contract signed. Personally, I wouldn't put any wheels in
motion until I had a contract in case something like this were to happen, and
then if it did they'd be breaking it.

I'm not saying it's this persons fault, but I don't necessarily think saying
the founders are not good guys (aka bad guys), I think it's more about being
assertive and protecting yourself.

In my experience, I've never handed in notice without a formal offer and
that's for local jobs. If you add moving abroad to that, then there are
definitely some extra steps needed to protect yourself.

I sincerely wish you the best in finding somewhere else, and it's a horrible
situation, but if you had a similar offer in a month, would you do it
differently?

~~~
guybrushT
_I sincerely wish you the best..._

Thank you!

 _if you had a similar offer in a month, would you do it differently?_

You know thats such a good question. There are many excellent suggestions in
this discussion. I would definitely add a _cost_ in the contract - a cost
(e.g. severance etc.) in case I am asked to leave for reasons other than
performance. This should mitigate the casualness which hurt me last time.

What won't change is that startups are looking for great people, and some
people are looking for great startups :) But I would definitely structure the
deal with a startup very differently, as a result of this discussion.

------
bengali3
Sorry to hear that!

What the consensus on the best way for someone to avoid this? Immediate
vesting if let go? Some predefined severance agreement? 6 mo/12 mo contract? I
understand it's a big decision for a startup to hire employee #1, but how can
I protect myself in such a future case?

~~~
wspeirs
You can always ask (accelerated vesting, golden parachute, etc), but it's
doubtful you'll get anything.

Joining a startup is a risk, period. Part of that risk is that the company (or
your job) will be gone in weeks/months/years. However, the upside is usually
there. So if you can tolerate the risk, go for it... but always have a plan B.

------
uptown
I'd seek compensation for whatever time you were formally employed by the
startup. I'd also reach out to some of the other companies I'd passed up job
opportunities with to see whether they're still willing to discuss working for
them. Be open, and honest as to why you're getting back in-touch with them,
and perhaps explain why you chose the US startup over their opportunity to
completely clear that question-mark in their minds.

Your situation is frustrating, but there's plenty of opportunity for smart,
motivated, talented people. To help with your frustration, try to flip the
story in your mind. This company is going to have to find a way to succeed
without your knowledge, experience, and help. That's their problem now.

Good luck to you.

------
julie1
Life sux. And being a nice person with good intentions does not mean you are
unlikely to do no harm to anyone.

That is the major reason why I first learnt to avoid «charismatic/nice»
employers; I was fed up of being f*cked in the ass nicely. Then I matured and
learnt to trust but check.

------
DanBC
A little humility and self-awareness should go a long way when talking to
people about getting jobs. It seems form your post that you're worried that
you may have "burned your bridges". But, really, so long as you weren't rude
you should be okay.

------
zerr
Founders think they did nothing wrong or something to be hidden. So please
share more details and save some of us from similar perspectives. Thanks!

------
jebus989
Sorry to hear your story. IIRC the lean startup differentiates a "start-up"
from a small new business by the idea that the former operates under gross
uncertainty. Generally HN smoothes over this but stories like yours help keep
things in perspective.

------
throw4323
> I joined as employee #1 of a YC startup

Which one is it?

~~~
wlesieutre
Since he was clearly avoiding saying who it was, I think he probably doesn't
want to say who it was.

------
striking
Startups are dangerous business. As much as I understand why you'd be chasing
the American dream (I too am an immigrant, first generation off the farm) I'm
sure you understood the risks of leaping before you looked. Good luck.

~~~
guybrushT
I did plan for a lot of scenarios - except for the one that happened. For
example, I planned running out of funding (in which case we discussed a viable
bootstrapping strategy). All my planning assumed that I would be part of the
team.

------
gdilla
how fucked can you be really after only 2 weeks? You didn't move yet, you
haven't burned any bridges in your network, you have skills that are in
demand, you have not uprooted your life for them.

------
reality_czech
Well, I'll probably be hellbanned for this, but I don't blame the founders.
it's a tiny company with probably a few thousand dollars between them. They
made a bad decision, obviously. Does that mean they should go under with the
weight of an employee they don't need?

You even said that you "found a job that you turned down" earlier. So it
sounds like things worked out fine. Of course it was hard on you. But changing
a job always is.

I don't know what your home country is, but I do know that there are millions
of desperately poor unemployed people in India, 25% youth unemployment in
Spain, and a pretty tough labor market here in the US for some low-skilled
workers. We should be thankful for what we've got. And part of the reason
we've got what we have in Sillicon Valley is a culture that allows
experimentation. Quickly setting up a company is only possible if you can
quickly tear it down or retarget it when things aren't working out.

You mentioned that you have a postgraduate degree in management. Well, you
should know that what you're getting into when you join a startup is different
than if you join a big, established company. Be a man (or woman) about this.
Don't ask for special treatment.

And for the record, I had an employment offer yanked during the crash of 2001.
Fun times.

------
segmondy
You are not fucked. Do not say that again, do not repeat it, do you even think
it! Pick yourself up as fast as you can and get going. Start hunting again,
don't take too long and get back in the groove. The worse period of my life
was the moment I made the mistake of thinking "I was fucked" took too long to
come out of it, and all it took was starting to think, "I'm not fucked, I can
do better, it's possible" Best of luck.

------
hpagey
OP, I wanna give you some advice regarding this visa thing, for future
reference. As a rule of thumb never resign from your previous position until
your visa has been processed. You can always apply for premium processing
which is guaranteed to give you results within 15 business days.

For example,if you are doing a h1b transfer, please wait for the h1b transfer
to complete before you resign from your previous position.

------
reon_wi
I can't exactly feel what you feel but I share my story anyway as I think it's
related albeit less cruel.

I was offered a job in Singapore by a start-up. I filled all the legal
documents required including the employment pass application that I sent them
back. Weeks later I got a standard email from HR saying they offered the job
to another candidate. I was shocked they eventually withdrew their offer.

The problem was I talked about my friends, family, that I'm moving to
Singapore (from Europe). My girlfriend who is living in Singapore was happy,
along with me, till the point I told her the offer has been withdrawn.

It is interesting to mention that the CTO of the company is the one who had
approached me first whether I'm interested in exploring positions with them.
However when it comes to withdraw the offer he never turned up.

I'm happy I didn't make business with them. I found a much better company to
work with and moving to Singapore next week.

I wish the best to you, it's for sure you'll overcome this with favorable
outcome.

------
freejack
What kind of help or advice are you looking for specifically? Your post
doesn't make it clear what you'd like help with. i.e. finding a new job,
negotiating a severance package, revenge, moving on, how to best pick up the
pieces with your professional network, etc. I'd like to help, but I'd be
guessing if I offered any specific guidance.

------
bussiere
Yeah it happens to me, and now i don't refuse other offer as long as i haven't
signed anything.

In french we say "un tiens vaut mieux que deux tu l'auras". "One given is
better than you'll get two."

Bref, you have opportunity and to your wife telle the things frankly and
breath you'll find job soon.

I wish you well for the next things.

Regards.

~~~
raverbashing
The equivalent saying is "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"

------
Veus
That does suck! I'm not familiar with the law in the USA but in the UK you can
be let go for very little within the first 2 years of employment. You don't
have a right for unfair dismissal for the first two years. The notice period
is 1 week for anyone that has worked less than 2 years.

~~~
walshemj
Only up to a point in the UK the race and gender discrimination laws still
apply for unfair dismissal.

------
TheGunner
No extra advice here but didn't want to read and run, good luck to you on
finding something new. Like others have said, I'm sure there are a few doors
still open if you're willing to get back in contact

------
dinkumthinkum
I'm going to tell you this. All those trying to scare you into being a good
little child and not "burn" any bridge, I think are being very simplistic. It
may show up as some "drama" or it may not but let's be honest people with much
more drama in their past than exposing shady business practices are able to
have functioning careers. It's your choice but I think the fear is just knee
jerk reaction from simple minded thinking.

Some potential companies may look favorably on it. Companies are staffed by
people, people are diverse in opinions.

------
jusben1369
It sounds like you're more embarrassed than anything else. Ask yourself what
your life will look like in just 6 months from today. I suspect just fine. At
worst you'll still go a bright red color when you think about this after a
couple of drinks. Chalk it up and be glad you didn't make the move and then
find this out. I have no idea about the circumstances but it's possible these
guys need to be commended for moving very quickly to stop you in your tracks
once they determined that for some reason the fit wasn't right.

------
dxbydt
Was in your shoes two years ago, coincidentally this exact month.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4567857](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4567857)
Since then, I've met several people who were in the same boat. This sort of
stuff seems to happen with regular frequency but is swept up under the rug as
if its no big deal. Props for being bold & writing about it. Good luck to you
sir! More than the subsequent job-hunt, it was the memory of all those false
promises that hurt the most.

------
nilkn
[I've deleted the contents of this post. I apologize to readers for the
inconvenience and confusion. I related a story similar to that of the OP but
decided I shouldn't post about it here.]

~~~
TheGunner
Bloody hell, that is horrible, do you mind me asking, if there were
performance issues bad enough to pick up on in the first few weeks how were
they not picked up on in the interview?

~~~
nilkn
That's sort of what I was trying to get across in my last paragraph. I
consider it a failure of the interview process.

Granted, keep in mind that I'm not privy to all the details. He very well may
have been granted a generous severance pay-out to ease the burden -- I
honestly don't know.

------
meritt
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8120070](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8120070)

There's 500+ other jobs available, you can just as readily find another one.

------
trmchale
To me this is really simple. You should tell Hacker News who the company is.
An employee has the right to leave whenever he wants and a company can
terminate you whenever it wants.

Big companies usually do not fire for no good reason because of liability.
Small companies don't have to worry as much because they don't have any money
to sue for.

However these "good guys" are establishing their corporate culture now, and we
hacker don't want to get dicked over too.

------
dinkumthinkum
I think you are being too nice. They have served you very poorly and I don't
know if it is helpful to make any excuses or tell everyone how you are. This
should have been figured out before they hired. Now, maybe you should not have
put all the eggs in this startup basket. I hope you are able to find another
position in the area, do t stop trying. Next to e, give yourself time to be
"excited" and tell everyone about a new thing.

------
koliber
If you are on good talking terms, and it seems like you are since you
mentioned the word "polite" a few times in your post, I would politely ask
them for a severance package, in case one is not included in your contract.
They can of course politely not give you one. Depending on how the
conversation goes, you will be able to recalibrate the "nice guy" stick you
are using to measure the founders.

------
JackFr
> I officially joined as the COO.

What precisely does that mean?

IANAL, but I know that if you and they signed on the dotted line, apart from
the ethics, you have legal rights. Probably fewer in the US than other places,
but some protection.

If nothing was signed, then I don't think you "officially joined" as COO. From
their perspective, it might simply be more of an episode of serious
miscommunication, than any untoward behavior on their part.

------
free2rhyme214
Hi Poster,

No you're not. There are no positive or negative events in life. All events
are neutral. It is within your power to see them as positive. Reality doesn't
care about your "destiny."

So besides my airy fairy comment above what I mean is when something bad
happens you have to take massive action to get the result you want. So when
young founders make DUMB decisions that screw you over you apply to 40-60 jobs
a day and find a better job. You take MASSIVE action to make the situation a
positive one.

You have NO time to waste complaining about what happened. Your time needs to
be spent working your butt off finding new work. That means 40-60 jobs per
day. That also means you should look at investing in assets so your income
isn't reliant on an employer or anyone for that matter.

Life will always do this to you. Always. How you react to situations like this
is what defines you. Nobody can escape this. Everyone will have ups and downs
in life.

Now. Right now. Today is your time to take massive action. Not sit on hacker
news or the internet all day. Not complaining to your wife. Now is your time
to make this a positive situation.

If you don't believe me don't do what I say and see what happens.

~~~
free2rhyme214
Last comment: Right now it seems bad because you are all caught up in your
emotions. When you start thinking logically you'll realize what I'm saying is
true. Also with a masters in CS and 6 years of management experience you can
earn more than $100k easily. How is that being fucked? Many people in the
world would kill to be in your position, living in the silicon valley and
being able to find jobs like you can. You are blessed with this education and
probably a beautiful wife. Make the most of your time and be grateful.

------
salahxanadu
F them. Those guys are jerks. Make sure you get your pay plus your vacation
pay plus a severance.

------
alexholehouse
Please someone correct me, but assuming you didn't sign anything, I suspect
your recourse beyond "AGRGRGRHRGRHGRGHRHGRRHGR" is limited (not that this
posts suggests you're looking for vengeance or anything).

That really really sucks.

------
bjliu
Do you have a green card? Is there legal issues with staying in America? I
think this would be helpful information; otherwise, getting a new job in
Silicon Valley (or America) should be fine for someone as capable as you.

~~~
AhtiK
"hired and unhired in 2 weeks."

"Deal was to work remotely, till we all figured out the visa."

Looks like the "visa issue" remained to be solved.

------
bdcravens
You're embarrassed, not fucked. You work in a high income industry, and even
if you went without work for 6 months, you're not fucked. Seriously, this
crisis pretty much epitomizes "first world problems". It stings, but you'll
build up tougher skin and better business sense as a result.

"Deal was to work remotely, till we all figured out the visa." Honestly, that
was the problem. You were dispensable, in the mind of the founders. Lesson:
iron out all details before starting.

"I joined as employee #1 of a YC startup." The founders know this. If they
become the next Dropbox, employee #1 becomes a millionaire or better. Even if
it fails, it prestigious. Do you think that caused you to take a job that may
otherwise have not taken?

------
digitalzombie
It's like that in start up in california.

Got interviewed, he wanted contract. I told him I'm only looking for
permanent. 2 months later, project got cancelled and I got the boot.

------
alexyes
Go ahead and explain the situation to the employers whose offers you turned
down. Especially in the US, people will understand, and the offers should
still be valid.

~~~
bdcravens
"It wasn't a good fit" is always a great way to describe it, and is fairly
neutral from both sides. Whatever he does, he shouldn't bad-mouth the company.

------
vincentleeuwen
Launch a competitor.

~~~
guybrushT
So in my interview, I mentioned that I had thought of launching the exact same
company about a year ago - and one of the reasons why I took this role was
because the idea for this service is very close to my heart! I like how they
were executing, so I decided to join them instead of competing.

~~~
xvolter
You've had many past ideas, such as:

[http://www.scatter.fm/](http://www.scatter.fm/) (and a mobile app) - a
location based deal site and mobile app for hunting deals from nearby shops.

Or [https://yenbe-beta.appspot.com/](https://yenbe-beta.appspot.com/)

Seems like your ideas are generally around finding good deals, price hutning,
so my guess is that the YCombinator startup that hired you is around the same
idea. There are a few YCombinator startups that deal with simialr things; I
don't have the time to find the entire list. Maybe someone else can do that
and the HN community can figure out which company did this.

------
sergiotapia
Name and shame these guys, totally not cool.

------
ilaksh
Ask them if they would rather pay what they owe you or have the name of the
company public in this context.

~~~
jerven
Don't ever do this. It is blackmail and will get you into a whole lot of
trouble!

~~~
ilaksh
Is it blackmail or is it giving them an opportunity to see one reason why they
should pay him what they already owe?

For context, try to imagine if the company had offered him a "legal agreement"
where he was payed a few extra weeks' salary and in exchange agreed not to
discuss anything.

~~~
jerven
Asking for what they owe you is fine, even asking for more is acceptable. It
is the threat of an unrelated negative that is blackmail. And that the
quickest way to make people unhelpful and if you leave a trace of it, its
going to ruin your chances in court.

So no upside just downsides, so don't do that part of "else I am telling the
world".

------
jheriko
did you sign a contract?

most standard contracts would be being broken by this behaviour. if i were you
i'd squeeze them for having dicked you over...

------
JackK
The startup life means there's a lot of legal and financial roiling going on
at the management level that Employee #1 and below aren't allowed to see.

Probably a visa issue. Maybe a money issue (they don't dare admit that to any
outsider, and employees are outsiders, so get the polite happy faced response
management gives the rest of the world). Probably the all-too-typical
inexperienced management issue most startups have.

When you choose to join a startup, you have to have a strong tolerance for
surprises, some good, many bad. ALL of them are nice-seeming guys (nobody'd
work for them otherwise). ALL of them have cool-sounding projects (will they
work? Will they step on Big Legal's toes and die in deposition-induced agony?
Will another 100 companies jump on the bandwagon before you can get it out
there?)

It's a VC-self-serving myth that startups are succeeding at an increasing
rate. See: [http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/corporate-america-
hasnt-...](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/corporate-america-hasnt-been-
disrupted/) for the actual stats.

Keep in mind that chasing startup dreams may not be healthy for family life,
especially given that the failure rate for startups has been increasing, not
decreasing.

Of course, it's always made to sound like success is just around the corner,
but your most recent experience should give you a good idea whether your
family's risk tolerance makes it worth it to you and those you love. The odds
of dreaming turning from a bunch of extreme hidden hard work into extreme
hidden burned-out failure are high. The startup world's only prescription for
that is that you rest up a bit, then do it again.

There's a reason some people take the corporate jobs, save up, and only then
follow their dreams.

Too many people are wasting their precious youth following the "fail early,
fail often" mantra that is counterintuitive for a reason.

VCs make their money on the ones that succeed. The ones that fail don't cost
VCs all that much, once you start counting actual funded startups that have
passed all due dilligence and cashed the check. It's hard to filter out all
those who are really only braging about funding on the way, because they've
got to be convincing about already having it to have any chance of getting it.

But a steep price is being paid in wasted best years caused by startup
failures. I count as failures, even these smaller "pivots" such as one where
an employee is let go because different talents are needed (their stated
reason to you). You wasted your time? No skin off their noses, they get to be
the nice guy to somebody else they can use.

The startup world's harm is as cruel as any harm the corporate world can do.
The startup world is just far less honest about the harm that it does to
individual startup employees, preferring to say whatever they need to, keeping
everybody's dreams alive until they absolutely can't anymore.

------
jowiar
> I like the founders - they are good guys.

No. They're not. You don't get to screw around with other people's lives and
continue to possess the title of "good guy". If they were good guys, you would
be receiving tens of thousands of dollars for your difficulties, and such
would have enough of a runway on that such that you wouldn't need to ask us
for advice. Please do us all a favor and let us know who they are beyond "a YC
startup" so that none of us find ourselves in your shoes.

As it stands, if you had one of the other offers you were interested in, let
them know that the company that you had taken reneged, and that you would love
to work with them. Hiring good engineers is hard (and expensive) enough that
any decent company won't mind being your second choice.

~~~
JasonFruit
I'd say you did the right thing in not saying what the startup was — it isn't
wise to look like a bridge-burner when you're looking for work.

~~~
hacknat
Why is the burden always on the individual to not "burn the bridge"? I'd say
that this startup has burnt this bridge pretty well. It would have been
perfectly reasonable for him to tell us who they were and for us to avoid them
like the plague.

~~~
Liesmith
Because the individual needs something, and the startup does not. what do they
care if he is pissed? He's some unemployed dude they'll never have to deal
with again. Meanwhile potentially having them as a resource who will say 'oh
yeah Ex Employee was a really great guy, we regret losing him, definitely hire
him if you can' is pretty much the only positive he's gonna get from this
experience. Complain about them and you don't even get good word of mouth from
the, just a ton of wasted time and an angry story to tell.

YCombinator people talk to one another. they go to meetups. San Francisco is
an incestuous little town. It's hard to break into and having bad blood with
people on the inside can make it harder.

~~~
poof131
_YCombinator people talk to one another._

They should talk to each other about why this was bad behavior. If the OP
mentions the name, the company can respond with their reasons in an adult and
professional manner, explain why they needed someone else, and how they are
going to make this right. Then they look like smart, grounded pros willing to
admit a mistake and will get some free marketing.

------
michaelochurch
_I like the founders - they are good guys._

No, they're not. "Good guys" don't fire someone without a severance after 2
weeks for no reason, especially not after you've put your reputation on the
line as you have.

 _I let all job offers go (I had a few good ones)_

Try to get those offers back. Explain what happened. If there's another solid
option you can take, then you don't need to worry. Try to get a month or two
of severance from the YCs but don't worry too much if you can't, and don't
jeopardize success in your next gig by putting your energies into an all-out
legal fight. If you're turned down, however, _document it_. This is going to
help you make a case against the YC founders. The words you want are
_detrimental reliance_ , and to make that case, you need to establish damages.
A job offer you had, that you lost, constitute damages. You relied
detrimentally on the offer (later rescinded) from the YC company. That's a
stronger case to make than wrongful termination, which often involves
venturing into the undefined behavior of at-will employment.

Then-- if you can't get a severance on the order of 3-4 months, plus
reimbursement for any relocation (both ways) or visa costs you've-- get a
lawyer involved and sue.

~~~
maerF0x0
Worst YC investment ever? We took $20k investment, hired someone for one week
and then fired them, got the $20k sued right out of us.

~~~
michaelochurch
If personal cash flow isn't an issue for him, he could forgo cash severance in
exchange for some equity, or strike a deal with an AoI (Agreement of
Introduction) which means they agree to introduce him on positive terms to all
future business contacts.

------
icantthinkofone
This almost happened to me twice in a four month period.

I was given a job offer at Pixar (back when Pixar made their own hardware). I
really wanted to go there but my first son was born and I just didn't feel
Pixar was quite stable enough so I turned the job down. Turned out I was right
because, if I had taken the job, I would have learned Pixar was getting out of
the hardware business and I would have been let go two weeks after starting.

The job I took instead was with Silicon Graphics. I was hired for my video
expertise. Was sent to training, set up in a local office, and then the
company did a re-organization and my new boss was in Dallas instead of
Detroit. My new boss decided he wanted a Fortran programmer and not a video
expert so, three months after hire, I'm gone.

------
menriquez
your not fucked...there is basically an unlimited amount of opportunity out
there for what we do.

trust me...i KNOW fucked...i got caught with some recreational substances a
few years back and am probation for three felony possession charges. 25y+ of
software development and it's impossible..IMPOSSIBLE..for me to get past any
HR for ANY decent job.

so chill out...enjoy a week off...and get hired next.

------
dontbeabitch
Out them. Now.

------
eleitl
Did you receive a copy of signed work contract? If not, you have no case.

------
epx
Like soccer players, good people should be paid a "fix" in order to change
jobs, so they would not starve when something like this happens.

