
Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety - ingve
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2251840-mindfulness-and-meditation-can-worsen-depression-and-anxiety/
======
dTal
It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice
specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice
(before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding
mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the
acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they
describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). This whole idea of it being
a casual activity that's good for the soul, or that it can make you a more
effective person (on this plane of existence) is 1) new and 2) only modestly
supported by the science.

It may hold some value, but it strikes me that there is more pro-meditation
dogma than anti-. Scientists will hold an open mind, but "gurus" who charge
money for fancy retreats will insist in its value without evidence. As a
general rule, there are no panaceas - major changes in cognition can go either
way. Be careful!

~~~
mtalantikite
“which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being.”

This is very important to point out and I think is actually the big trap when
approaching meditative practices. I fell into this nihilism trap when I was
starting meditation in college and I abandoned my practice almost completely
for the next 10 or so years.

It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self.
The latter is an extreme view that leads to nihilism. At least in the Buddhist
traditions I’m aware of, nihilism is a wrong view and the teachings are
explicitly not nihilistic.

Yet it’s exceptionally easy to get confused and fall into it if you’re just
meditating without any real notion of what the teachings are. All the
corporate “meditate for productivity” that has invaded the dialogue in the
west I find at least misguided, and at the worst actually harmful.

For anyone that is interested I’d suggest reading Thich Nhat Hanh’s
translation and commentary on the heart sutra called “The Other Shore”. It
clears up a lot of the teaching on emptiness and will help you not fall into
the nihilism trap.

(It’s also useful to note that the modern vipassana movement that is so
popular in the west comes from a tradition that doesn’t emphasize the
teachings on emptiness, even though they are in fact there in the Pali
cannon.)

~~~
Igelau
> It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of
> self.

I think part of the issue is that the words/concepts really don't translate
into modern english well at all. Another example is how frequently the first
of the Four Noble Truths is misrepresented as "Life is suffering". We don't
have good ways of saying or explaining shunyata or dukkha that preserve the
nuance of the concepts.

Edit: Thich Nhat Hanh is always a solid recommendation. I'll have to find his
commentary on the heart sutra.

~~~
tyre
Is there a longer translation that gives more nuance than "suffering"? Often
times we settle for less precise words in favor of pithiness/conciseness.

~~~
hvs
I prefer "unsatisfactoriness" rather than "suffering".

"The word is commonly explained as a derivation from Aryan terminology for an
axle hole, referring to an axle hole which is not in the center and leads to a
bumpy, uncomfortable ride."

~~~
taneq
Sounds like a better translation would be ‘slipshod’.

------
Pyramus
Reading through the comments I'd like to help clear up some of the
misconceptions/confusion when it comes to the use of the terms meditation and
mindfulness:

There are different meditation practices, mindfulness meditation is a special
type of meditation (popular are Headspace, Calm, the work of Jon-Kabat et al.
and many more).

There are other types of meditation not aiming primarily at mindfulness,
popular examples being Transcendental Meditation, visualisation type
exercises, and many more.

Mindfulness (in the scientific sense) refers to a state of mind characterised
by various qualities (which are slightly different depending on the author),
in short being in the present moment, or "not on auto-pilot".

In a mindfulness course, meditation refers to the formal practice of catching
your inner auto-pilot. This is usually complemented by applying mindfulness to
every-day situations as well as some form of psycho-education.

As a last comment, a 10-day Vipassana retreat is a completely different beast
than doing a 10 minute guided mindfulness meditation every day, especially in
terms of risks. As has been mentioned by variosu posters, there is a small,
but real risk, that the retreat can trigger psychosis. In my understanding
this is significantly different to the worsening of a pre-existing condition
as described in the article.

~~~
lewispollard
The free 10 day vipassana retreats are really quite dangerous IMO. They're
often attended by complete beginners with no prior knowledge, since they're
free and sort of marketed as a boot camp. The actual instruction is given on
decades old tapes and videos. The "instructors" there are given explicit
instruction not to advise anyone and just get them to listen to the tapes
(which are very much steeped in religious Buddhism). So anyone who's
struggling, in a weird mindstate, and unsure what's happening to them, and
goes to a course leader for advice, won't get any advice other than to buckle
down and listen to the tapes, and that often results in misapplying the
technique, buckling down too hard, and not relaxing enough, which can cause
the mind to... snap, I guess.

Goenka's method is very inflexible and quite divergent from his lineage and
peers. The method of insight meditation outlined by Ledi Sayadaw, Mahasi
Sayadaw, etc, is really quite simple, but there's a lot of misinformation,
marketing, and fraudsters out there trying to convince people it's more than
it is.

> In a mindfulness course, meditation refers to the formal practice of
> catching your inner auto-pilot. This is usually complemented by applying
> mindfulness to every-day situations as well as some form of psycho-
> education.

This is true and about as far as most people will get or want to get with it,
and it really does have that benefit. You're right, these longer retreats are
designed to essentially deconstruct your self-world boundary, and that isn't
usually disclosed to people, there isn't much informed consent. The people who
are seeking that usually know what they're getting into.

~~~
spaetzleesser
When I did the 10 day I found it interesting that on the tapes Goenka told
stories about how he interacted with people and gave them detailed advice
during their sessions with him. But the retreats that are run in his name are
totally cookie cutter and you get no individual advice other than basically
just to keep going.

When I lived in Maryland I attended classes with Tibetan teachers for a few
years and they always pointed out that you need guidance through the tough
spots or either your meditation effort is often wasted or even harmful.

I guess us Westerners have a tendency to simplify everything to make it easier
to sell. Sometimes it works but often it gets simplified too much as it
happened with yoga (our "yoga" is basically just a milder form of aerobics
without any depth) or now with mindfulness. There is some benefit but we
completely miss the big point.

~~~
lewispollard
I have been told that the same thing happened to Goenka himself: he and his
peers all got personalised advice, and so his particular body scanning method
was what worked _for him_ , while his peers were given other techniques. So
the dogma of the Goenka method is based on the assumption that you have the
same kind of character as Goenka himself.

~~~
dbtc
Daniel Ingram said this (dharmaoverground, mctb) in a recorded conversation on
youtube a few months ago.

------
r34
I've been practicing meditation for several years now.

The phenomenon described in the article is very obvious to every practitioner
- it can happen that for some time you will feel worse (actually I'm surprised
that it's only 8%).

It is related to psychological mechanisms of repression, which is weakened
during meditation practices. That is why during serious meditation retreats
(like 10 days vipassana) some people freak out and they aren't able to finish
the retreat. It's perfectly normal and usually has positive effects in the
long run. Although sometimes meditator is not able to work through the
energies released - he should seek (any) professional help then.

~~~
nabla9
I just want to add that for some people the 'freak out' is psychosis, or other
serious mental condition that needs immediate treatment.

There are many people who come into meditation to fix something because they
have a sense that something is going wrong with them. Meditation has become
very popular and there is strong incentive to avoid mentioning possible
negatives. Then you just ship out damaged people from the back door and make
them think it was their fault.

Meditation if practised as designed brings also negative mental states as part
of the process. It's not just feel good hum-hum. People should seek
professional mental help if they need and not to try some intensive meditation
retreats that drive them into the walls.

I go to long meditation retreats regularly, but I don't recommend them to
anyone. It's not the same for everyone. It can seriously harm some people.

~~~
pvarangot
Psychosis triggered by a very unexpected and emotionally strong event doesn't
need immediate treatment. You may put yourself back together in a short amount
of time and actually getting help may be worse in the long run as you will
probably start adjusting variables in your life, like taking meds or getting
closer or more distant to particular people, that not necessarily lead to the
self-improvement you need.

The whole point of those long retreats is to be able to push yourself to those
limits knowing that you will have some days to rest after and that people that
are used to handling psychotic people after they had a reveal or something
will be around to help you.

Of course as mostly everything that involves a 10 day long gathering with
idiosyncratic strangers you need to be careful.

~~~
nabla9
> Psychosis triggered by a very unexpected and emotionally strong event
> doesn't need immediate treatment.

People may come back without treatment but once you had a psychosis the
propensity to get it again has increased. That's why it's usually good to seek
help even if the symptoms go away.

------
dx87
This is the equivalent of saying exercise is bad because "People who engage in
physical activities sometimes experience unwanted muscle soreness and joint
pain". Dredging up old repressed emotions is one of the first things I learned
about meditation, and you're supposed to learn to deal with them instead of
keeping them buried in your head forever.

~~~
viburnum
What percentage of articles about mindfulness tell you that you’re going to
recall terrible memories and have to work to overcome them? Do the human
resource departments that advocate mindfulness tell employees about this?

------
dusted
This is probably oversimplified, but it does make some sense. Some people are
happily trotting about in their objectively miserable lives. Sit them down and
let them think on it, and they just might realize how empty their lives are
and how little control they have over their situation.

I've always been very "mindful" and depending on your inclination to cynicism,
that inevitably means finding out that life is what it is.

~~~
culopatin
Thinking about every aspect of my life in a very deep and logical way is what
got me depressed. And what got me out of it was being busy enough that I
didn't have time for that.

~~~
ntsplnkv2
This is no different than using alcohol, drugs, etc.

AKA Workaholic. Just another way to distract oneself from the existential
dread.

~~~
chasd00
what's so great about existential dread? If you don't have it then you don't
have it.

I read a book on Zen Buddhism once about 20 years ago and it made sense to me.
I've never read or practiced anything related since which makes me a constant
practitioner in a way. Maybe i'm blessed or cursed but, to me, the endless
pursuit of meditation/mindfulness is the same as the endless pursuit of
anything else.

~~~
ntsplnkv2
> what's so great about existential dread? If you don't have it then you don't
> have it.

Not sure what you're even asking here - everyone has problems. Would you
advise them to ignore their problems and instead distract themselves with
something else?

> Maybe i'm blessed or cursed but, to me, the endless pursuit of
> meditation/mindfulness is the same as the endless pursuit of anything else.

So, in a word, nihilism.

------
no_gravity

        They found that about 8 per cent
        people who try meditation experience
        an unwanted effect
    

What does that even mean?

That 8 percent of people who try meditation experience something "unwanted"
within a certain time afterwards?

Is that different from a control group? Which control group? When you look at
100 random people people with the same situation and instead of letting them
meditate let them go for a walk instead - what percentage will experience
something unwanted?

We would need to look into the study to figure out if it has more info.

But the article seems to provide no link to the study. No DOI, no nothing.

Based on the name "Miguel Farias" mentioned in the article, it might be doi
10.1192/pb.bp.116.053686 from 2016:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5353526/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5353526/)

~~~
tokai
At the end of the article it says:

"Journal reference: Acta Psychiatrica Scandinavica, in press"

So its not available yet. You'll find it here when/if its accepted.

[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/16000447/0/ja](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/16000447/0/ja)

------
submeta
Mindfulness meditation is not about negating ego, but about observing, seeing
what is in front of you, not judging, it is about perspective, about patience
(sitting in silence, not running after every thought or desire you have),
about learning to be gentle and patient with yourself and others. It is about
waking up to your current reality, to the present moment. About coming from an
illusionary state of mind to an accepting, seeing-current-reality state of
mind. It’s also about realizing that you are not your thinking mind (alone).
Your thinking mind is a tool, and your thoughts are notions and models about
the world. But there is also a level of perception that is meta-mind. A level
that is beyond that. A mind that observes your thinking mind. When you don’t
equate yourself and the world with your thoughts. Call it intuition if you
will. But it’s more than that. Not dichotome as the thinking mind makes it.
But holistic. - The Western notion about mindfulness practice is very
distorted. Sometimes simplistic. Sometimes negative: „Buddhism is about
killing your ego“. No it is not about killing anything. It is about observing
it, in a non-judging, patient way. - Mindfulness meditation is about
practicing being in the present moment, nothing more than that. And about a
set of principles that‘ll help you practice being in the present moment: Being
patient, being non-judgemental, perspective, breathing, sitting in silence,
observing the breath, observing the thoughts that come and go, not attaching
to them, letting go, being in the present moment.

~~~
brainless
I find this subject very interesting. I'm an Indian with a typical
understanding of the concept of meditation being about perspective, patience
and such ideas.

But I have seen multiple times that Western culture somehow seem to try to
extract something out of it. As if trying to commercialize meditation.

Peace with oneself, at one's current state is perhaps the only thing I relate
with mindfulness. I have been in depression for years, have anxiety. And I
started investing more into mindfulness recently, realizing I lost my roots.

The mind is a powerful tool, more so in silence. That's what I feel
personally.

~~~
0xdeadbeefbabe
> I have seen multiple times that Western culture somehow seem to try to
> extract something out of it.

I wonder what you think about yoga in the West? I think it gets competitive.

~~~
5rest
Western yoga has been evolving over the last couple of centuries. An age-old
proverb says - Truth is one, wise express it in many ways. Indian teachers
came to the West and Westerners went to India to learn about Indian Philosophy
- Yoga. Ideally speaking, Yoga is free for all. Some teachers started charging
a fee for making a living, which may be fine. Slowly dilution of purpose
occurred and some worst-case teachers turned to be opportunists. The result is
most of the Western Yoga schools/studios focus on postures, yoga pants for
flexibility a few raise to teaching breathing techniques for a calmer mind,
and _rarely_ few pickup the actual spirit of Yoga described in original texts
Bhagavad Gita or Patanjali yoga sutras.

" The total structure of life requires of our total being to be united with it
in a practical demonstration of thought, speech and action – this is yoga."
[[https://www.swami-
krishnananda.org/patanjali/raja_01.html](https://www.swami-
krishnananda.org/patanjali/raja_01.html)]

If you want to know what yoga is, a good starting point is Aurobindo's "The
Synthesis of Yoga
"[[http://www.sriaurobindo.nl/docs/Sri%20Aurobindo/23-24TheSynt...](http://www.sriaurobindo.nl/docs/Sri%20Aurobindo/23-24TheSynthesisofYoga.pdf)]

Lastly, it is a happy coincidence people (including Indians) like _yoga_
exercises. Most of us will be happy with the results of the exercises
resulting in flexibility and transient calmness in mind. Real seekers go after
_Yoga_ for years and it is not available down the street or online. In
reality, ultimate Yoga - a union of gross, subtle, and causal bodies - is very
high-bar to reach.

Hopefully, it gives some people a glimpse of the original idea of Yoga. I'm
sorry if this is too wordy and preachy.

------
jrochkind1
"Mindfulness and other types of meditation are usually seen as simple stress-
relievers"

That's the first problem. They are powerful "technologies" (okay, that's just
a fancy way of saying "tools") of mind and self, not "simple stress-
relievers".

Possible "negative" outcomes are not unknown in the cultures that originated
these tools. Any powerful tool will have some potential metaphorical sharp
edges.

Over 20 years ago, I took a yoga and meditation class (before or near the
beginning of the U.S. cultural rise of non-spiritual "mindfulness"), and the
instructor told us on the first class, something like:

"Sometimes people doing these techniques can experience odd things. You might
have a negative reaction. Or see or experience something odd or scary. Or even
think you are interacting with scary beings who aren't there or another plane
of existence or something. I don't say this to scare you, it doesn't happen to
many people. But so you can recognize it if it does, and just come talk to me.
It happens sometime, it's not a big deal, but it's important you come talk to
me if it does, left unattended/unguided it can become a big deal."

Because there are teachings/techniques from the traditions these tools
orginate in to deal with some the sometimes negative effects too, that were
also developed over generations in tandem with the tools. This is the danger
of extracting "mindfulness" from it's cultural context, as just a "simple
stress-reliever".

------
ericmcer
Early in quarantine, I basically roasted my mental health with wellness
practices. Strict diet, running, yoga, breathing exercises, strict sleep
schedule, no alcohol, etc. etc. I felt great and in control for a few weeks
and then slowly got more and more anxious, which is compounded by the
helplessness of 'doing everything right' but not getting the desired result.

Last night I played video games and ate ice cream while watching a movie. Feel
pretty good today :).

~~~
devmunchies
A couple years ago I moved to the mountains with my family and cutback on
mindless tech consumption (social media, Netflix) and started reading more
books and working out (power rack in my garage).

I feel my IQ has gone up a few points and I’m more in control over my
behavior/emotions but my anxiety is worse. I’m plagued by my thoughts of the
shortness of time and the temporary relationship I’ll have with my children.

I think it’s a natural part of the human condition and people escape for a
reason.

Historically, religion remedied that in a lot of ways, which is why it was
called “opium of the masses”. People need a worldview-framework to overwrite
their base firmware.

------
jayd16
I must be taking meditation way less seriously than most of the other
comments. I thought it was basically quiet reflection; a chance to calm your
body (with breathing exercises). I had thought it was a chance to see if that
reveals something you've been ignoring or to help you ignore something
momentarily so you can decompress and evaluate your well being more
objectively.

That's how I've been treating meditation anyway. I thought zen ego death was
just overzealous marketing but from the comments its fairly common?

~~~
twblalock
Meditation in the way western people think about it is kind of like shopping
mall yoga: it's a tradition with a long religious history that's been turned
into an anodyne "healthy" practice for American consumers.

------
rdiddly
Given that every time I've been depressed it has consisted precisely of
detaching from the quotidian world somewhat, sitting still a lot, thinking,
being aware of thinking, I'm not surprised by this result. It's too much
'yin'. I notice when the diagnosis is depression the first thing doctors reach
for, before pills or anything else, is exercise, movement of any kind, which
not coincidentally is a 'yang' thing. (Doesn't always work on its own since
the patient has to have enough motivation to go do it.)

When your world is all crazy and on fire with hectic activity, that's when
it's the most beneficial to stop and meditate. I think some of the meditation
stuff as it's marketed in the West, is first of all done without much regard
to the needs of (or actual effect on) those who buy the book/class/etc., and
is secondly based on the implicit assumption that "our modern lives" are
filled with too much activity - errands and dropping-off-the-kids and whatnot.
But if you're depressed the opposite is usually the case.

------
LisperFan
For a couple years I practiced meditation from 30 minutes to a couple hours
per day. I was introduced to it when I started practicing the Wim Hof method
for health reasons. I tried to adhere to a zen style of emptiness. It made me
extremely happy, greatly increased my satisfaction with life and improved my
relationship with my wife.

The downside for me came when I was driving or in public. I became very
anxious because I would sometimes feel my thoughts drifting away as they did
when I meditated and I feared I would lose my ability to control myself. I had
some mild anxiety prior to meditating (never while driving tough) but it was
greatly amplified during this time. I eventually stopped meditating due to
some unrelated circumstances (basically not having enough free time), and my
anxiety virtually disappeared. My overall happiness has decreased and I have
resumed some self destructive behaviors (such as occasional binge drinking) .
Not sure if I will ever pick it up again. I would probably be much better off
if I had some actual instruction and someone to discuss these issues with.

~~~
volume
Since you mention your happiness a coupe times I wonder: Can you explain how
you go about gauging, assessing, calculating or feeling how happy your are?

Since you have practiced meditation regularly for a couple years, what do you
think about the idea that chasing happiness is also something to let go of?

------
loxs
Exactly how it works for me. I tried meditation and my anxiety became much
worse. Somehow the meditation itself unlocks many more things to worry about.

Conversely, I found out that doing things that are exactly the opposite (of
mindfulness) do great for me to not worry that much: Play computer games, go
to "pointless" parties, "waste" some money... and of course, physical
activity.

Meditation centers my mind squarely at the things that I worry about the most
(and I don't have great influence on): politics, diseases (like getting
cancer), what people think of me, etc.

~~~
hitchhiker999
.. many would strongly advise against avoiding those emotions, and possibly
getting help / ideas / guidance on how best to defuse their affect on you.

There's a significant difference between understanding the political horrors,
or knowing that cancer is a problem - versus being terrified of thinking about
these realities.

~~~
loxs
Well, yeah, I hear you. But for the past 5 years I have progressed from panic
attacks and benzodiazepine dependance... to mostly "nothing" by just
"avoiding" the anxiety. I sleep all night, I am much more happy with my work,
etc. All of this, just because of taking the "right" decisions, which are
mostly avoiding stress, like switching jobs, improving my physical fitness,
allowing myself to be lazy etc.

Yeah, it may backfire in the future, but I am not going back there, if I am
allowed to choose.

~~~
chasd00
you are allowed to choose, don't let this thread or anything/anyone else
convince you otherwise. ever.

------
Dowwie
Correct if wrong but this study sample included people who meditated at least
once a week for at least two months? There's the problem. Meditation is a
daily exercise conducted for at least 20 minutes. You won't be able to apply
meditation-acquired skills, such as anxiety reduction, until a foundation is
established-- at least 2 months, but probably more. Just as the benefits of a
diet and exercise take time to work, so too does a disciplined meditation
regiment.

------
NoOneNew
Yea... you know, surgery is extremely painful. It can sometimes be worse than
whatever is the reason you're getting cut open. The recovery period is a
nightmare too sometimes.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

Non-religious meditation is sort of the same for your psyche. You bring things
to light that have been plaguing you in the background. Once in the light, you
have to painfully deal with it. Make peace with it, make amends, or corrective
course of action. Over time, such actions become less painful and future
issues affect you less because you have the experience and maturity to deal
with them swiftly.

This article just spins it all towards negativity. That last cop-out paragraph
was a joke. A guided meditation app? I am all for a pro therapist to help
people talk through their problems and help better explain their own thoughts
and actions... but an app? Seriously? The whole point to meditation is for you
to have better understanding of yourself. Not for someone else to dictate your
own thoughts. A good therapist doesn't guide you to a pre determined path.
They push you to walk your own path.

Damn, these things piss me off so much. This whole article feels like the
opening pitch to some asshole's self help app that they're going to charge a
monthly subscription for.

~~~
troughway
Your ire is misplaced. This article is talking about the minority of people
for whom meditation does the opposite of what it's supposed to do.

This reminds me of study done where, again, a small percentage of people who
were exposed to sounds that are typically used to reduce anxiety had the
opposite effect to. I am trying to dig up this study but it was posted to HN
close to a decade ago, so who knows what happened to it. I think a number of
HNers expressed the issues they faced listening to these samples as well.

~~~
blaser-waffle
I mean I've known people who took LSD and instead of a fun trippy experience
they had a really bad time. Totally shook them up.

In the long run it was good for them, spooked them enough to stay away from
drugs permanently and, ultimately, turn their life around.

Meditation, like LSD, is only going to get you to a place -- what you find
there is on you. If you blot out all distractions and look deep inside
yourself... you may not like what you see. If you get someone with deep
seated, repressed anxiety and make them bring it to the fore via meditation
it's not going to make them less anxious, it's just going to make it more
noticeable.

------
spicymaki
I was part of a Zen meditation group for about six years. I did not personally
notice members having psychotic breaks during retreats. What I did notice was
that people were coming in with depression and anxiety, and that the
mindfulness practice was not helping to drive people to manage the issue. They
were just comforted by being in the presence of other people who had similar
issues they could relate to.

What I found upsetting was that the leaders of the group were not interested
in actually solving these issues either and were perpetuating the state of
being present with the problems the meditators had. This created a vicious
cycle of dependency. Anxiety and depression are not things you can just figure
out and snap out of.

As a commenter mentioned earlier, the point of meditation (in the Buddhist
context) was to facilitate ego death. Watching the self, knowing the self, and
extricating the self, in order to be freed from the problems of self (which is
thought to be causing the depression and anxiety). In our modern context most
of us can't go into a forest refuge and isolate ourselves to do this practice.

------
stabbles
Today on Hacker News: "Not everyone needs 8 hours of sleep: new research" and
"Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety".

Or more generally: "Exceptions to the rule exist".

What's the value of these articles?

~~~
pessimizer
Self-improvement clickbait works as well on HN as anywhere else. I do think
that all of the orthorexic diet stuff has been downmodded over the last year
or two, though (or the OCD weather in silicon valley has shifted.) It's been
worse.

------
ryaan_anthony
When i exercise or try to meditate i just wind up thinking about things i need
to do, and i typically abandon my workout to go do it. It can be as simple as
picking up a dirty sock or putting away a coffee cup.

~~~
cagenut
That is textbook ADHD.

My apartment is never more spotless than when I have to tackle some
hard/complex piece of code that requires my undivided attention for a long
stretch.

~~~
tikhonj
It's a pattern that is common for people with ADHD, but it's also pretty
common for everyone else—just maybe not _as_ common. I'm sorry if it wasn't
intentional, but your comment reads like you're saying that the above comment
is a sign the commenter might have ADHD and that seems unwarranted.

------
davesque
Meditation is ridiculously oversold as a magical solution to all of life's
problems. The whole question of the relationship between meditation and the
ego just strikes me as irrelevant if not made up entirely in the way that
religions make up stories about the spiritual benefits that their
practitioners can enjoy.

The most use I've gotten out of meditation is as a simple cure for habitual
thoughts and behaviors. And I think the logic is incredibly straight forward:
if you find yourself suspecting that what you're doing is not helpful and/or
not deliberate, what better thing to do than to sit down and take an honest
look at your thoughts and impulses? It's not rocket science and I don't think
it's fundamentally a religious practice either (as some here have suggested).

Coming to the practice with an overinflated sense of what's possible will
certainly lead to disappointment and maybe even depression.

~~~
ngold
If you are an awful person, it must be depressing to come to grips with that.
But worth a try.

------
dkarl
Presenting meditation as something you can do every once in a while when you
are feeling bad emotionally and want to feel better is like telling somebody
that if they wake up feeling tired and out of shape, they should go for a
quick three mile run and then they'll feel great for the rest of the day. It
only works for people who are in decent shape already, and not only is it
terrible advice for people who are looking for help, it's also presented in a
way that makes people feel like something is wrong with them if it doesn't
work for them like it supposedly does for other people.

------
hdfhu
The term "meditation" has such a fuzzy meaning these days. It really refers to
prolonged concentration on something. We do this all the time. Yogis or
occultists refine the term further into 3 stages: a brief concentration, a
prolonged concentration (i.e. meditation) on something real and tangible like
a symbol, and meditation on the idea behind that something real and tangible.
Knowledge workers are very familiar with meditation, although they don't
recognize it as a special activity. However that 3rd stage is unattainable for
most people today: ideas are qualitatevily different. Mastering meditation on
ideas switches mind into a special state. From that point directing mind at
things like sun, moon, light or more abstract ideas like the relationship
between space and sound produces significant effects or just summons ideas and
thoughts about them. This is how great scientists make discoveries: they
direct their mind at some topic and summon ideas about it (they don't produce
ideas with induction or deduction) and then they materialise ideas into more
tangible math.

------
rvn1045
Meditation will make you more sensitive to whatever you are feeling. If you
are anxious or depressed you will feel it significantly more strongly and it
will be extremely uncomfortable. As you continue the practice you will become
desensitized to the negative aspects.

The whole point of vipassana is to break down what exactly is happening into
its component parts. If your feeling anxious then you try to break that down
into mental imagery, bodily sensations, mental chatter etc

You are essentially exploring your depression, anxiety or whatever else you
are feeling and over time you'll be able to handle all these states of minds
calmly.

One positive aspect of meditation is that it can start to make you feel very
good. You can start off your meditation session with extreme states of anxiety
and as you explore what it means to be anxious - anxious feelings all over
your body can suddenly turn into extremely pleasant sensations sliding up your
body. The more you do it the more persistent this feeling becomes.

------
cultofmetatron
I liken it to exercise. Too much and you strain your brain past its ability to
repair. Yes you can overtrain your brain. You also need to take nutrition into
account. You can hit the gym every day but if you don't dial in your
nutrients, you won't see any improvement or worse, a degradation.

------
chives_yo
I started meditating weekly with a Zen Buddhist group about 4 months before I
started taking medication for depression a couple years ago.

Mindfulness is emphasized in CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy). The idea
behind this is that depression manifests as distorted thoughts (e.g. "Everyone
hates me, I should die."), and the goal is to notice these thoughts and learn
to substitute them (eventually automatically) with thoughts that are more
productive/positive.

From what I've seen, most meditation practices are very helpful for the
"notice the thoughts" part, but, especially in non-religious settings, tend to
neglect the "substitute the thoughts" part. Usually what I hear is something
like "notice the thought and let it go."

So if the thought "Everyone hates me, I should die" comes up during
meditation, you just notice it and let it go. That often provides some relief
in the short term (you're no longer actively thinking about dying), but you've
done nothing to prevent it from arising again later, and you haven't learned
any coping techniques for when similar thoughts _won 't_ go away (which can be
a symptom during severe episodes). If you have depression or anxiety and want
to get into meditation, I would strongly suggest at the very very least
researching the principals of CBT in case you find yourself in this situation.
I would recommend an app called Woebot. Even better would be to try some
actual CBT if you are able.

All that said, I think that for me joining a meditation group was beneficial
for me because of the social aspect more so than the actual meditation. This
group emphasizes community (sangha) and service pretty heavily. A lot of
people get social benefits from other religious communities, but as someone
who didn't grow up in a religious household, I find Buddhists super easy to
get along with. They tend to be very accepting, especially to newcomers, since
they are taught not to make judgements of others. It's comforting to know if
I'm going through a rough patch that at least I don't have to worry about
people judging me for missing meditation that week.

------
projektfu
This website appears to be infested with ads that take over Safari on iOS,
requiring closing the tab.

------
rv-de
Seems like every hacker and his uncle came to collectively share their
unknowledge and misinformation about this subject. Please, _downvote_ this
comment, go ahead - but I refuse to invest any more time in attempting to
change this - this is just ridiculous.

------
bump64
I don't have experience with meditation so I can't comment on that but
personally I have been though some very tough periods in my life, battling
with depression and anxiety and what has helped me a lot during those periods
is physical exercise and eating healthy food. Even better if I manage to join
a group sport or activity. It is sometimes hard to find the motivation to do
it, doesn't provide immediate gratification and relaxation but if I keep doing
it is much more rewarding to my mental health compared to all other stuff I
have tried.

------
Areading314
I couldn't find the referenced paper anywhere, so the entire thing is probably
made up by the writer.

Specifically I could not find any recent publications by a Miguel Farias in
Acta Psychiatrica Scandinavica

------
naruvimama
There is rampant commercialization and distortion of powerful techniques. It
takes a lot of experience and hands on training, and years of observing the
guru teach others before one does it themselves.

So much so that there exists a term guru-sishia parampara, when the teaching
of a school are perfected and handed down through the generations.

Another factor is a lot of us are perfectly aware of the pointlessness of our
day to day activities, but are very frightened to break out of it. It gives us
a kind of familiarity and is "normal" to be that way.

------
gojomo
That some people have negative reactions – including anxiety, hallucinations,
& seizures – to intense meditation has long been recognized. Here's a story
from 18 years ago in the SFWeekly:

"Bad Vibes- Warning: Meditating may be hazardous to your health" SFWeekly,
2002-08-28

[https://web.archive.org/web/20091114023754/https://www.sfwee...](https://web.archive.org/web/20091114023754/https://www.sfweekly.com/content/printVersion/313883)

------
lorthemar
This is similar to how yoga affects your body. The first step of mending
something is awareness. If you know what's broken you can fix it. Many people
who start doing yoga start feeling worse at the start, they realize what's
wrong with their body, but if they push on, it gets better. Perhaps something
similar can be said for meditating. Also, just blindly trying to meditate or
other online ways are not actually meditation, but that's another discussion.

~~~
Igelau
> The first step of mending something is awareness. If you know what's broken
> you can fix it.

That leans toward something I was wondering about as I read the article. One
of the things that was noted was "thoughts of suicide". Is the meditation
causing that, or was it a thought pattern that was already going on made more
obvious by practice? Not trying to diminish the danger of ToS or practicing
without guidance and support, but I don't think there's quite enough to
establish causality here.

------
stevebmark
The end goal of mindfulness is to make you realize you have no free will and
that you don't exist. I wish more people understood that. Losing the illusion
you have free will is the real danger behind mindfulness, because the practice
leaves you there with nowhere to go.

Having your mind "run away with bad thoughts," while it sounds bad, isn't
directly related to the fundamental issue of mindlessness, and could happen
with any type of meditation.

------
king_panic
Meditation and mindfulness practices reconnect you to your feelings. Fear
(anxiety) and apathy (depression) are feelings. We disconnect from them
through repression, suppression and escape. To move beyond any obstacle, you
must first confront it. I wouldn't let the pain of feeling low vibration
emotions discourage your meditation or mindfulness practice. When you confront
and accept these painful feelings, there are greater, lighter emotions beyond.

------
hexsprite
As one begins meditation one becomes more aware of their thoughts and
feelings. If one has been suppressing "negative" thoughts and feelings those
will start to come to the forefront and may seem overwhelming. As a potential
solution the article recommends working with a guided meditation either live
with a teacher, or a recorded one. This is a great ideas as one develops the
capacity to become comfortable with discomfort.

------
setnone
It's not a cure or a treatment in the first place. Like one teacher said:
meditation is just a shower for the mind, simple hygiene.

------
olesho
"when people are trying to still their thoughts, the mind can “rebel”, she
says"

Who told them to "still their thoughts"? Sure thing it will rebel since it's
impossible task. One can't "still the thought" since at exact moment you FIND
yourself thinking it means the thought has already GONE!

------
softwaredoug
The lesson here is all in the “CAN worsen anxiety”.

Even if a study shows statistically significant result that meditation helps
on average, the tails still matter. That is in health, individual responses to
an intervention matter a lot. Sometimes a treatment helps most people a modest
amount, but makes things much much worse for a small minority of people.

------
sii
This is a quite well documented phenomenon:

[https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-
insight...](https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-
insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/5-dissolution-entrance-to-the-dark-night/)

------
98Windows
There are lots of ways to do "Mindfulness and meditation" so I'm not
surprised.

I've always found group meditations to be the most beneficial for me while
solo meditations are harder and less likely for me to feel better afterwards
(although I've had some really good ones)

------
emmanueloga_
Heard about this before from this ppl [1]. As it appears, even meditation
needs to be done in moderation...

1: [https://www.cheetahhouse.org/](https://www.cheetahhouse.org/)

------
ntsplnkv2
Another meta-study on other studies, which probably have many flaws (like
almost all psychological studies.)

This is what passes for science these days. You can't draw any realistic
conclusion from this, one way or another.

------
viburnum
I used to have mild tinnitus that I completely ignored (actually had to try to
notice it) but after doing mindfulness it’s loud constant ringing that’s
driving me insane.

------
bluewavescrash
If you are feeling more fully, through removing your mental blocks, then the
fear is going to increase. That is necessary for it to pass through and
eventually go away.

------
gentleman11
On safari, you can’t reject the tracking cookies on that site. The only button
that works is accept all recommended. Anyone have a link that lets you avoid
that?

------
Le0n_
Meditation is a powerful tool that probably most of the world can't use to its
full potential, otherwise they'd be a literal saint, like Maharaj-ji.

------
dorkwood
This is anecdotal, but I feel that learning to meditate has caused my mind to
go blank much more easily during conversation.

Before I ever knew about meditation, it felt like my brain would always serve
up whatever words and ideas were needed to keep the sentence going. I even
felt like I was quite a quick-witted person. But now I'll often lose my train
of thought and suddenly be left with a completely empty head. I might be
wrong, but I'm pretty sure this didn't happen in the pre-meditation days.

~~~
hdfhu
Meditation is prolonged concentration on something. Perhaps what you practiced
was exactly "thinking about nothing and keeping your mind blank"? That would
be the opposite of meditation and could be harmful, I guess. There are very
subtle objects used in meditation, like light or space, but it's definitely
not nothing.

~~~
dorkwood
> Perhaps what you practiced was exactly "thinking about nothing and keeping
> your mind blank"? That would be the opposite of meditation and could be
> harmful, I guess.

I mean, it requires prolonged concentration to clear one's head -- but I'll
admit that I'm not a meditation expert. Perhaps I was taught incorrectly.

What thoughts should be running through your head while you meditate?

~~~
hdfhu
There should be no usual analytical activity in your mind during that time.
Meditation is a lot like watching a still thought with your mind. Beginners
pick simple objects like a black triangle on white background and try to keep
their mind completely still, but with eyes open, with no other thoughts for 5
mins. People here that do software can easily achieve photographic quality
meditation on simple shapes like that triangle. Then you increase complexity
and start choosing proper objects like a little Buddha shape. The added
complexity makes meditation difficult: the 3d image (which is a reflection of
the object) gets blurry, dim or the attention is outright dragged away by
other thoughts. It's like trying to balance on one leg with strong
unpredictable winds. The goal is to develop strength to balance the mind and
properly reflect complex static objects.

Then you switch from objects to ideas and that's a lot harder, but that's the
actual goal. For example, you think a lot about the nature or idea of
software. Once you think you've found this idea, you sit and spend 5 mins
meditating on this idea. Ideas can't be drawn, they don't have shapes and our
mind is not really suited for dealing with ideas.

Meditation is addictive. Even at the early stages you'll notice the flow of
something thru your body during meditation and the weird, but pleasant feeling
of physically stretching out your brains. This addiction is considered an
obstacle, so the usual advise is to do a few short sessions that stop once you
start noticing that feeling.

Your daily thinking will become sharper as you progress, and you'll get this
feeling of physical balance. If it's not the case, you're doing something
wrong and you'd have to seek an in person advice.

One particularly dangerous mistake is trying to clear mind of thoughts and
make it blank. Tsong-kha-pa wrote a good deal about this mistake in his books
to warn people.

~~~
dorkwood
Thanks for this reply! I never quite understood what people meant when they
said they were going to meditate on a thing or an idea. This clears things up
a lot.

------
trabant00
The only tools/processes that can't do harm are the ones that don't do
anything. Knifes cut stakes but also fingers.

------
kumarvvr
Meditation is a process to calm the mind. Make it more lucid and reduce
thoughts.

It's a tool to discover the inner self, one of the first steps in self
realization, as per Hindu scriptures.

It has been studied for millennia and it's methods fine tuned.

The reason for meditating is not to improve productivity, solve depression /
anxiety issues, and all the issues related to modern living.

It is a first step towards God Realization.

But why is it used so widely for the above mentioned reasons?

\- The initial stages of meditation bring about a calm and peace. Many people
find health benefits to such a process. It might as well be true.

Meditation is supposed to be done and progressed under a realized guru. It's
not a vocational course that someone takes and becomes an expert in it.It is
not a tool to solve anxiety and depression. It is not a tool to improve the
life we experience with this body. It is a tool to discover our true nature.

Of course you are going to get results that fall into a wide spectrum if you
do it wrongly, under no proper guidance and with no clarity as to it's true
purpose.

You cannot expect a person with depression and anxiety to sit alone in a room
and meditate and not expect an aggravation in such thoughts.

To live a happy and healthy life, Hinduism promotes a way of life for the
householder (one who is married and has a family)

\- Get up early. \- Exercise (This includes preliminary forms of _Hatha Yoga_
) \- Eat healthy food \- Spend time with family \- Teach your kids \- Avoid
vices \- Have a healthy sex life \- Spend some time contemplating the true
nature of the world. Just thinking, no meditation, no process, no nothing. \-
Sleep well \- Have a good circle of friends and keep good relations with
extended family, to share your joys and sorrows.

In India, for every one of the above activity, there are a myriad of books,
anecdotes, stories, proverbs, etc. A householder is never told to do
meditation or try to be in peace by such methods. To glue the society
together, there are festivals, rituals, cultural activities that are to be
followed both by the individual and the society. Some by men, some by women,
some by rulers, some by priests, etc.

Meditation and other related yogic methods are only taught to a person who has
developed a certain aversion to the ways of this world and wants to advance
spiritually. That too, a qualified guru will test him in all aspects and only
then start training in meditation and yoga. Until then, no such methods are
taught.

Western nations have misused and misconstrued everything about Yoga and
Meditation, and then put out such articles.

Unfortunate.

------
viburnum
“Once the researchers had excluded those that had deliberately set out to find
negative effects” they did what?

------
stimur
Kind of reminds me of Murphy's law:

1\. Things get worse before they get better. 2\. Who said things would get
better?

------
moron4hire
I remember reading something a long time ago about a study that showed that
people suffering from depressive episodes made more accurate assessments of
the true state of their finances, their relationships, etc., than people who
were always happy.

What if, in the process of meditating, you've thought long and hard about your
lot in life, and have realized that it actually is shit?

Maybe it's a mistake to strictly focus on the "depression is a disease"
narrative. Maybe a lot of people actually do have a lot to be sad about _while
also_ having nothing they can realistically do about those things. If a person
is stuck in a dead-end job, in a place with no opportunity, with
responsibilities that prevent you from taking risks, with no savings, then
it's really hard to see how that person can be "happy".

I've struggled with depression for most of my adult life. The absolute worst
period of depression I went through was when I was single, living alone,
working a job I hated, in a city that was far too encouraging of drinking as
the only viable past time (Philadelphia). I was very fearful of medication at
that time. I had heard a lot of bad stories, not just about side effects, but
about _effects_ , like the medication removing both the lows _and_ the highs
of their emotional state. There were also stories of negative consequences for
people's jobs: losing security clearances and the like (which are very old
stories by now, but such rumors don't have a lot of respect for changing
times).

I was able to get out of that state through career coaching. I was feeling bad
because I hated where I was in life. Fixing that, I got a lot happier. It felt
really good to put form to my woes, to put a target on them, and eliminate it,
one by one.

I got married. I had kids. And then I hit another, big, depressive period.
Work had been a mess going on 5 years by that point. My wife gently pressured
me into going to see a doctor and get medication.

I did the medication for a while, and it helped at first, but I think it
mostly just confused my own, internal understanding of my emotions. I started
it about 2.5 years ago, in the middle of a hellscape of an office. After a
year, it just stopped working. The doctor increased my dosage levels, but
things never went back to square. I think what happened was that I just
recalibrated my understanding of my emotions. I had physical cues before the
medication: heart racing, running thoughts, a physical feeling of the floor
dropping out from under me. Now, I lacked those feelings, but I actually
recognized situations in which I should have felt them, and in some ways the
lack of the feelings felt like stumbling, like taking a step for a stair that
isn't there. I spent another year on the medication, under the belief that
things would be a lot worse without it. There were some negative side effects
that were also having a bad impact on my mood.

But I think the biggest positive impact on my mood was getting a good job
where I'm respected and nobody brow-beats me over made up deadlines. Halfway
through that last year of medication, I changed jobs. I noticed things getting
better. I got so sick of not feeling like I was in control of my body,
listening to doctors who had no clue what was going on just make guesses at
what to do, that I told my doctor I was going to make my own guesses and quit
the medication.

I've now been off of it for 6 months and everything is... as good as the best
days when I first started the medication, minus the negative side effects, so
better in every aspect.

------
milin
Nice try. Still going to be mindful and meditate.

------
nisa
If you are stressed out from your job and turn to some capitalism mindfullness
sponsered by Google(TM) with the (of course) unstated goal to have you
functioning again I'm not surprised.

Meditation can be a delicate thing that has positive great effects if applied
correctly but it's also a tool for sects since forever.

I really like the vipassana medition approach but the whole ideology around it
and the things they'll tell you on the retreat turned me off.

Even if you do it for yourself without any objective target it can get worse
as you may realize it's actually like in your surpressed fears.

Be careful what you subscribe to.

------
256lie
They meta analysis only found 8% with negative outcomes. What is the base rate
for comparison for the current standard of care?

------
cvaidya1986
Depends on your object of meditation

~~~
r34
No. For any meditation object one can have pleasant and unpleasant
experiences.

~~~
elbear
Well, kind of.

If you do metta (loving kindness) you can cultivate equanimity and other
positive qualities. These can act like resources that can help you deal with
trauma resurfacing in a healthier way. They can also reduce the aversion
towards the parts of you that carry the trauma and this can be beneficial.

------
0xdeadbeefbabe
Mindlessness can be bad too.

------
tmaly
These meta studies always seem suspect.

The conclusion does not seem to have any provable basis.

------
inscionent
I suggest that 12th person get a therapist

------
imvetri
That's the point of meditation.

Depression makes you think clear.

Anxiety pushes you to snap out of mediocrity and spark creativity.

