
False memories, or why we’re so sure of things we’re wrong about - Hooke
https://today.duke.edu/2018/03/what-im-working-why-you-didnt-do-thing-youre-sure-you-did
======
lsc
The interesting thing is that society really strongly rewards confidence, even
when you are wrong... but having a certain amount of self-doubt, I think, is
fundamental to sanity for all the reasons in the article; sometimes, even when
I'm really sure, it turns out that I'm just... wrong.

~~~
B-Con
People like certainty. It's why someone who is 100% reliable is generally
perceived as far more valuable than someone who is merely very reliable.
People are far happier to follow a leader that has 95% chance of succeeding
than someone who has a 75% chance.

Confidence is basically just a word for "projecting one's own certainty".
People like certainty, so they favor the person who knows what they're talking
about over the person who's not quite sure.

But unfortunately, confidence isn't a perfect signal. Some people actively
exploit the general human bias to find certainty to their own advantage by
falsely projecting confidence.

This is a topic I find interesting. And to be fair, not everyone who projects
false confidence is doing so maliciously, some (it seems to me) simply have a
hard time holding things that aren't absolutes in their head and they tend to
round certainty on things to 100% or 0%.

~~~
jamesrcole
> unfortunately, confidence isn't a perfect signal.

I think that's a major understatement.

There's the Dunning–Kruger effect
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect)

and the world is complex and it's very difficult to get a clear and definitive
picture of it. The better your understanding, the more hedged and less
definitive it will tend to be, and that does not tend to come across as
confidence in your understanding.

~~~
xg15
I think the problem boils down to how to take meaningful action without
confidence.

E.g., if I admit that, not only am I not confident, but I see the world as so
complex that I can't be possibly confident about it, how can I decide what to
do?

If my view of the world is correct than my actions would at best have
unpredictable results and at worst would be reckless. So the best course of
action would be not to do anything.

However, would strip me of all agency and any ability to do anything about
things in the world I see as problematic.

~~~
cableshaft
> if I admit that, not only am I not confident, but I see the world as so
> complex that I can't be possibly confident about it, how can I decide what
> to do?

You get input from others with knowledge, consider things as much as you can,
and recommend a course of action / make a decision based on what you know,
understanding that it might not end up being the right one.

I've seen it happen often in small businesses and startups I've worked with,
and I've seen people make what in hindsight were the wrong decision. But
that's just the way things are for everyone, really.

You can't see the future but have to make a decision anyway at some point.

------
TipVFL
The scariest thing about false memories is that police interrogation
techniques are great at planting them.

Yet another reason to never talk to the police.

[https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/people-
ca...](https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/people-can-be-
convinced-they-committed-a-crime-they-dont-remember.html)

------
madamimadam
"Every time you recall a memory, it becomes sensitive to disruption. Often
that is used to incorporate new information into it." That's the blunt
assessment from one of the world's leading experts on memory, Dr. Eric Kandel
from Columbia University.

[http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/scientists-explore-the-
illusio...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/scientists-explore-the-illusion-of-
memory-1.1353905)

~~~
switch007
Yes but is he recalling his research correctly?

------
saheb37
An Indian Bollywood movie comes to my mind, the hero recreates an entire day
by planting false memories in the minds of people around him, he exploits the
power of visual sense to do so, which sticks quickly to your mind.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drishyam_(2015_film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drishyam_\(2015_film\))

------
oceanghost
My mother in law is a master confabulator. She makes up stories out of whole
cloth and absolutely believes them. They range from the mundane to the
fantastic to the impossible. Some examples:

One year she was disappointed that we didn't come to spend Christmas Eve with
her. She never called to make plans because she imagined we'd just come over
because "that's what we always do." In reality--we have never spent xmas eve
together-- ever.

She insists there was a ghost in her house which played pranks on her and-- in
full view of two other people levitated a potted plant and threw it at her.

and her masterpiece-- blaming me for her husband's death (of cancer) because I
asked him to come to his daughter's graduation ceremony. I don't even know
what to do with this one.

The maddening thing is, these people absolutely believe these things. They
will argue until they are blue and tell you that you're crazy. It's hard to
even blame them in the end.

~~~
mehrdadn
Regarding the ghost thing, I assume it wasn't the case here, but it could be a
life-or-death situation... see this video (I don't want to spoil it so I won't
say more):
[https://www.ted.com/talks/carrie_poppy_a_scientific_approach...](https://www.ted.com/talks/carrie_poppy_a_scientific_approach_to_the_paranormal)

~~~
dEnigma
Just in case anyone is interested (spoilers!): the talk is about a woman who
thought her house was haunted, but it turned out she was suffering from carbon
monoxide poisoning, due to a leak. Carbon monoxide can cause auditory
hallucinations and feelings of dread and pressure on your chest.

Edit: added spoiler warning

~~~
mehrdadn
You just spoiled the whole thing...

~~~
hyperdimension
For n=1, at least, _I_ appreciated the summary (even though I understand what
you meant about spoiling it).

I habitually avoid videos on the internet, and with the summary, I was able to
at least get the gist of the video, whereas otherwise, I would have never
watched it.

~~~
mehrdadn
> I habitually avoid videos on the internet

Even TED talks? :(

~~~
kstenerud
Yes, even TED talks. They're not magically better. If I can't read a summary
to judge the quality of information, it's likely I can just skip the whole
thing and save myself from having my time wasted.

~~~
felcori
i like transcripts some discussion boards that post videos also post
transcripts summaries are cool too though depending. works best with videos
that are just talking..

~~~
pluma
There's a transcript on the same page as the video, even with translations.

------
snarfy
When I was young I had reoccurring dreams for a few months about a domestic
violence issue. Years later after my parents had passed, the stories started
to come out. It turns out that incident was real. My mind completely blocked
it out and turned it into a dream. It was then I knew to not trust my
memories.

------
GenYCubeJockey
I'd like to see a cross-section of data and metrics that acknowledge that some
human beings lie. I searched the article for any mention of lie or untruth or
manipulation and found nothing. Why is that concerning to me?

> _Ultimately, we want to understand the psychological mechanisms underlying
> these kinds of cognitive processes to generate models that can contribute to
> computer programs and artificial intelligence._

"I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that." \- Hal

A great start would be to use the espoused rubric on Duke students and/or
faculty to see if they are willing to lie about bribery in NCAA Basketball
recruiting vis-a-vie success.

~~~
sdrothrock
I agree, especially in this kind of study, where it's been acknowledged (e.g.
[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09658211.2017.1...](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09658211.2017.1340286))
that lies contribute to the formation of false memories.

For example, another commenter reports that his mother seemingly remembers
things that never happened; the first thing I thought (because of similar
experiences) was that perhaps his mother had lied to friends about family
coming over to visit.

------
SubiculumCode
The classic Deese–Roediger–McDermott false memory study paradigm:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deese%E2%80%93Roediger%E2%80%9...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deese%E2%80%93Roediger%E2%80%93McDermott_paradigm)

Basically, semantically related lures can lead to false memories for items not
actually presented.

Interestingly, younger children do not have this type of false memories as
frequently. That is theorized to be because a)a reliance on verbatim memory
traces, an b)under-developed semantic knowledge

~~~
adventured
I'd argue a strong impact for young children, is that they haven't formed but
a small fraction of the concepts that adults have. They simply are unable to
generate as many or as elaborate of false memories because they lack the
necessary array of concepts required for a higher level of creativity an older
human can put together.

Simply put, if you're aware of seven concepts, that's a hard limiting wall for
your creativity when it comes to inventing false memories. What would the
false memories consist of? They can only consist of what you know. And further
restricting that limited set, is the ways in which you understand to
arrange/rearrange what you know.

You understand the concept table. You know the generally defining
characteristics visually of a table. You know _some_ of the ways a table is or
can be used, however you only possess a limited knowledge of tables and how
they can be used. That limited knowledge set of "table," restricts your
ability to utilize the concept "table" in your false memories.

~~~
SubiculumCode
I'm using 'semantic' as an umbrella term to include facts AND concepts. So we
are saying very similar things.

------
bloak
Almost every time I watch a film for the second time I encounter a scene which
seems to have been mysteriously messed up. I remember precisely how it was the
first time I watched the film, but on the second occasion the dialogue and
actions seem to have been changed so as to give an inferior overall result. I
used to think that perhaps there were multiple versions of all these films,
but every time I investigated I failed to discover any evidence of the
existence of an alternative edition containing the details that I clearly
remember, so I now think it's just the way my memory improves things.

On the other hand, perhaps in some cases there really are different editions
of the film that use different takes for certain scenes, though the films I
watch twice are not usually the big-budget productions that are well-known for
having multiple editions.

Anyone else experience this?

~~~
js2
Sometimes I re-watch classic sports games that didn’t end well for my team
hoping my memory was wrong and that the game ends differently than I
remembered. It never has. :-(

------
danieltillett
When I was younger my memory was rock solid in that if I recalled something it
was 100% true. As I got older my memory is not as certain, but at least I know
my memory is not always correct.

The loss of the reliability of my memory is probably the thing I most about my
youth.

~~~
anvandare
But how can you trust your memory when it tells you that your memory was once
better? :>

~~~
danieltillett
Yes an interesting question. I do have written evidence from the time, but I
also have a whole lot of independent memories of having a rock solid memory. I
don’t seem to have false memories, just incomplete memories.

It is not like my memory is bad now (it is still better than nearly everyone I
know), it just is not as good as it used to be. I have to write things now in
my diary and use bookmarks when I read, rather than just remember which page I
was up to.

------
Jedd
> I’ve been interested in memory for as long as I can remember.

Eeh, so a wise-arse, eh?

Great interview. I'm reading Kurt Anderson's 'Fantasyland (How America went
Haywire)' ... and the idea of false memories features large.

I wonder about the mentality or outlook of people who approach any session of
false memory exploration with a 'too open' mind.

------
creaghpatr
The past is a faulty memory and the future is an illusion of ego.

------
Isamu
The vividness of a memory is also misleading; people are always sure some
memory is accurate because they can vividly recall every detail.

Except that the brain often will generate vivid details to replace or fill in
gaps.

E.g. I had extremely vivid memories of a movie I hadn't seen for years, so I
was surprised when I watched it again and I was very wrong in those vivid
details. I had only retained the outline of things, some snapshots of things.

------
Ritsuko_akagi
Personal story: I once remember seeing a spider in my childhood, as huge as an
elephant, with its web spanning two large trees. I am sure I saw it, without a
doubt. But my conscience says that it's simply impossible.

I kept on telling my dad this story when I was a kid and he didn't believe it.
But when I told it a long time later on, he too thinks he might have seen it.

Maybe he formed those memories from my story.

~~~
moccachino
is that you Frodo?

------
BadassFractal
Elizabeth Loftus work on the subject is super interesting too, definitely
recommended if you like the topic.

------
Anon84
The mengle effect ;)

~~~
cJ0th
No, it's the Mandela effect. Either that or some weird parallel universe
stuff.

~~~
pluma
Weird, I'm pretty sure it was always called the Mengele effect but all Google
results indicate it's always been called the Mandela effect.

/s

