
Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ - whocansay
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/world/europe/france-roman-neighborhood-sainte-colombe-vienne.html
======
cpr
Some beautiful timber-framed tithe barns from the 800's survive in England.

[https://www.google.com/search?q=english+tithe+barns+timber-f...](https://www.google.com/search?q=english+tithe+barns+timber-
framed&source=lnms&tbm=isch)

Build with massive timbers (no nails), keep the wood dry (and watch for
beetles), and your beautiful, practical structure can last many centuries.

[http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/oak-beams-new-college-
oxf...](http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/oak-beams-new-college-oxford)

A friend of ours recently built a large tithe barn replica (including the
masterful traditional English joinery, more complex than American) in North
Guilford, CT at the Dominican Sisters' convent (unfortunately, can't find it
on the web anywhere), and it's truly an eighth wonder of the world (at least
in the timber framing business).

(Timber-framing is my (somewhat now dormant) hobby, and also a convenient
hobby-horse here. ;-)

~~~
beat
Timber framing is beautiful and long lasting, but _expensive_ , requiring fine
workmanship and specialized skills, and more importantly, high quality wood -
long, straight trees for beams.

It was more or less obliterated in the late 19th century with the arrival of
inexpensive machine-made nails. Cheap nails allowed a shift from timber
framing to balloon framing using 2x4 boards, using both cheaper wood and less-
skilled labor. Until manufactured nails came along, nails had to be made one
at a time, by hand, by a blacksmith. Nails were _expensive_. That's why 19th
century and earlier furniture has such beautiful joinery - it was cheaper to
hand-carve dovetail joints and other woodwork than it was to nail it together.

The history of architecture is a history of economics. Fascinating stuff!
(None of this is meant as a knock on timber framing, btw - it's superior in
every respect but cost.)

~~~
Houshalter
There's also survivorship bias here. Perhaps there were a lot of poorly made
9th century buildings and barns that didn't survive.

~~~
freehunter
There are an absolute ton of poorly made 9th century buildings that did not
survive, which is why it makes news when one is found and ones that exist are
tourist attractions.

~~~
13of40
If our ancestors were anything like us, a lot of those got torn down because
the needs of the community changed.

~~~
beat
Read _How Buildings Learn_ , by Stewart Brand, for more on that subject.

------
Koshkin
I wonder if anything from today will still be around in 2000 years, it is such
a long time by today's standards.

The humankind progressed very slowly from the early time of Babylon (some five
thousand years ago) through the time of Rome - both civilizations seem equally
ancient to us. But today, even one hundred years seems an incredibly long
time.

On the other hand - and somehow it is hard to believe - hundreds or thousands
of years ago people were the same as now, with the individual and cultural
differences from us probably being smaller than the differences that exist
between us right now.

~~~
netule
I think it's incredibly optimistic to think that there will be people around
in 2,000 years to analyze our remains. The way things are going, I can't help
but to lose faith in our species.

~~~
simias
It seems hard to imagine that humanity could be completely wiped out. Billions
dying in a huge catastrophe? Maybe. Terrible survival conditions for the
survivors? Possibly. Complete annihilation? Improbable.

We're quite tough at a species and now we have the technology to make even the
most terrible environments survivable.

That's why I find plans to colonize Mars as a "backup" in case something
terrible happens on Earth rather ridiculous. It would be incredibly difficult
to make Earth more inhospitable than Mars is right now. Nuclear winter Earth
would probably be paradise compared to normal Mars.

If you're worried about humanity's survival build underwater cities and
bunkers in the arctic, Mars isn't worth it.

~~~
Houshalter
If our civilization falls, it will be difficult to rebuild. We've exhausted
many of the easy to get to minerals. The conditions that let us bootstrap the
industrial revolution won't exist again.

But more than that, technology improves every day. The only reason we aren't
extinct _now_ is because nuclear weapons happen to be very difficult to build.
Imagine if the materials required to build them were common, and any idiot
could do it with some parts from the hardware store. How long do you think the
world would last?

Well who is to say the next world destroying technology will be the same?
Maybe there's a reason the sky is empty.

~~~
njharman
Exhausted all the minerals? Pfft, who cares about minerals when refined alloys
and other recyclable materials are all over. The parking lots of one USA town
has more metal than the (few) survivors of any civilazation collapsing level
event could even use.

Also, civilization existed before the industrial revolution. In fact that
would be a good point to mark the start of the fall. Giving the rate of
increase in pollution, overconsumption, climate and environment destruction
since and before then.

~~~
Houshalter
We've taken concentrated deposits of minerals and scattered them widely. And
exposed them to the air where they quickly corrode away into nothing useful.

Sure, digging up landfills for a handful of aluminum cans might meet the needs
of a small primitive post apocalyptic town. But that's not enough to sustain
an industrial revolution.

Preindustrial civilizations are nothing to aspire to. By all measurements the
quality of life was abysmal and almost not worth living for the majority of
the population. I'd rather our species just go extinct than endure that
forever.

------
RubberMullet
Every time I read about one of these discoveries I'm reminded of Zeugma[1] and
the effort to save the artifacts and mosaics[2] discovered there before it was
flooded. The BBC made a great documentary[3] about it.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeugma,_Commagene](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeugma,_Commagene)

[2] [http://cdn.sci-
news.com/images/enlarge/image_2307_1e-Zeugma-...](http://cdn.sci-
news.com/images/enlarge/image_2307_1e-Zeugma-Mosaics.jpg)

[3]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkluUBePzNc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkluUBePzNc)

------
erikpukinskis
Better link with more pictures here:
[https://hyperallergic.com/394056/archaeologists-discover-
a-l...](https://hyperallergic.com/394056/archaeologists-discover-a-little-
pompeii-in-southern-france/)

------
hourislate
I find it amazing that you can find Roman mosaics that have survived 2000
years without any significant damage but the tile installation in your
bathroom barely last 10-15 years without maintenance or renovation.

In 2000 years they will still be finding Roman Ruins but nothing from the 20 +
century will survive.

~~~
ashark
Modern construction, even when it uses good materials, is shit-tier, (I think)
because labor's so expensive.

For a while we lived in an upper-middle-class house (at the time it was built)
constructed around the time of WWI. National historic registry, the whole
thing, but little reno or updating. The hardwood floors were intact but in
terrible shape. Siding probably needed to be replaced. No air conditioning
(Iowa, so summers hot enough for at least a month or so that you _really_ want
AC) inadequate gas heating, no insulation, etc. Point being that, even when
occupied, the house experienced swings between ~55f in the winter and ~100f in
the summer.

The remarkable thing? It had _incredible_ woodwork, just... everywhere.
Bannisters, fireplaces, big wooden pillars with accompanying massive trim
between rooms, _everywhere_. The doors were all custom built, paneled, and
solid wood—they'd be considered top-end luxury today. It'd cost a fortune in
material to do that now, the lumber was so good, but the really crazy part?
The intricate joins and such were so tight you couldn't fit a piece of paper
between them. I mean _perfect_ , despite ~100 years of temperature swings like
that. Good freakin' luck finding anyone who can do that today, and if you
manage it, good luck finding enough money to pay them to custom-trim an entire
house that way. It'd be off-the-charts expensive.

~~~
Sleeep
With changing technology, I think we've actually sorta lost a lot of the early
methods of construction. The world's last remaining whaling ship the Charles W
Morgan, took 7 months to build in 1841 but 5 years to restore in 2008-2013
using the original shipbuilding tools and techniques (when possible).[1] I
just imagine the craftspeople restoring the ship were learning the old
techniques for the very first time.

Ironically, she was supposedly built to only last 25 years. That might be just
an urban legend tho.

[1] [https://www.newbedfordguide.com/charles-w-morgan-whaling-
shi...](https://www.newbedfordguide.com/charles-w-morgan-whaling-
ship/2014/02/19)

~~~
lostlogin
Last remaining whaling ship? Unfortunately the Japanese whaling factory ships
that come done this way are very real.

~~~
Sleeep
Oh, I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant the old school,
obsolete, 19th century-type "golden age of whaling* ships, certainly not
contemporary whaling.

In my mind I (rightly or not?) consider that in a different category
altogether.

------
soufron
The oldest timber-frame that I have seen was in France at the Hotel-Dieu in
Tonnerre, Burgundy. With 90m meters long, it's a sight:
[https://hoteldieudetonnerre.jimdo.com/](https://hoteldieudetonnerre.jimdo.com/)

------
blahman2
Such discoveries (yes, of similar or greater quality) are made so frequently
in the southern parts of the Balkans / Italy that they are almost skipped in
the news. Yet, when it happens in France it makes the NYT and the event is
'exceptional'.

~~~
bogomipz
The NYTimes didn't call them exceptional, the French Culture Ministry called
them an "exceptional discovery", as did an archeologist working on the
excavation.

If you read the article what makes this "exceptional" is the fact that the
fires which destroyed the place actually had a preserving effect:

'The fires essentially froze in place much of the neighborhood’s architecture,
including even the artifacts left behind by residents fleeing the blazes,
“transforming the sector into a veritable ‘little Pompeii’ of Vienne,”
according to Archeodunum.'

So no its not just any old Roman find.

A culture minister seeing a marketing opportunity for tourism likely had their
office issue a press release and as stated in the article invited journalists
to come to tour the site this week.

Similarly the archeologist from Archeodunum likely put out their own press
release as it's good for business.

Perhaps those parts of the Balkans/Italy you mention should have their
respective cultural minister to do a better job marketing their finds.

~~~
kweks
This is very likely a "lost in translation" or "false friend" moment. The
French "exceptionnel" means: one of a kind, typically due to extenuating
cricrumstances. (When your local bakery is closed because the baker broke his
leg, the note on the window will say "fermeture exceptionnel"..

The Culture Ministery's comments are therefore quite accurate for this case,
and not so much pomp.

~~~
bogomipz
It means the same thing in English:

[http://www.dictionary.com/browse/exceptional](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/exceptional)

------
coss
I wish I could go and help at an excavation. Anyone know if there's volunteer
programs?

~~~
njharman
Yeah it's called being a grad student pursuing masters in archaeology.

~~~
coss
:/

------
spodek
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!

~~~
abiox
relevance seems unclear.

~~~
slau
Not the OP, but it's from Ozymandias, by Percy Shelley.

It's a poem inspired by some archeological discoveries in Egypt, whose main
message is that no matter how vast or powerful an empire is, all that will
remain---over time---are ruins, if at all.

Not entirely irrelevant; although maybe not quite in line with what this board
usually discusses.

~~~
abiox
i get where it's from - i guess to me the theme is more about hubris. in the
sense it was quoted here, it could apply to basically any artifact one
encounters.

------
HelloNurse
I don't get how this excavation is exceptional, compared to sites like Veleia
or Barcelona with similarly buried buildings or really well preserved sites
like Pompeii.

~~~
AlexeyBrin
> probably the most exceptional find from the Roman era in years

Pompeii was discovered more than 200 years ago.

