
Are Flat-Earthers Being Serious? - samdunne
http://www.livescience.com/24310-flat-earth-belief.html
======
titzer
I've been perversely interested in this Flat Earth movement for a few months.
There are a lot of long, stunningly stupid, vehemently argued YouTube videos
out there from flat earthers. There are a couple of basic science-minded
people who take them on, often with some pretty entertaining results. But one
thing is clear is that the flat earthers simply aren't listening. It goes a
lot deeper than misunderstandings of facts or what they see when they walk
outside. It's really hard to explain such weaponized ignorance. They aren't
asking questions, they don't want to know, they just want to tear down the
establishment (by exposing secret inside knowledge) in whatever way they can.
It's psychological and goes much deeper than beliefs.

~~~
gliese1337
It's not just flat-Earthers. I suspect this is reflective of some broader
psychological phenomenon- what the article calls "conspiracy-theory
psychology", but I don't think that quite covers it. I recently came across
someone who was just as religiously convinced that JavaScript was not Turing-
complete. No amount of mathematical argument could convince him otherwise. He
didn't claim any conspiracy, just had an utter refusal to consider any
evidence. It was surreal.

~~~
brianclements
This is an interesting topic on it's own. I think it has to do with the hyper-
connectivity that our modern digital world provides that allows us to self-
segregate and form self-supporting echo chambers for just about anything we
want to believe. So while the psychological underpinnings for people
preferring their beliefs over objective truth is just human nature, I think
the _potency_ of modern day conspiracy-theory thinking is because we really
can form an entire world ourselves, (print/visual media, online communities,
higher ed) that supports our own thinking and it gets further embedded.

~~~
marcosdumay
Well, the association on the article was founded at the XIX century.

I don't think it's our modern hyper-connected world.

~~~
brianclements
I wasn't focusing on the genesis of these ideas, which frankly have always
been around in every technological era, I was talking about how such ideas can
persist in the age of limitless information, education, and technology. And my
answer was as stated above. The curious thing is that as information and
access to information has increased, the "intrenchedness" of some of these
fringe ideas has increased as well; like an opposite and equal effect. I would
have expected the opposite. So I'd say that hyper-connectivity has made
community ties stronger for believers in order to survive the information
onslaught. Nothing binds a small community more then direct opposition from,
well, everyone.

------
Xcelerate
I find these people particularly interesting, not because of the absurdity of
their belief, but because of the _certainty_ they have in their belief and how
difficult it is to convince them otherwise.

The article points out that "many Americans" hold some kind of wacky belief
and strongly resist attempts to challenge it: vaccines cause autism, global
warming isn't real, the moon landing was faked, the earth is 6,000 years old,
dinosaurs drowned in the Great Flood, ghosts are real, etc...

So rather than the Flat Earthers being anomalies, I actually think they
represent the general public quite well; it's just that their crazy belief is
different from mine or yours.

What I am really curious about is: what would it take to successfully convince
one of these people that they are wrong? Because if you solve this problem,
then you solve the problem in its generality, and you can apply the technique
to the vast number of people who still believe the earth was _literally_
created in 7 days.

My best guess? Ask them, "What would it take to convince you otherwise?" The
problem isn't that most people are incapable of learning the truth — it's that
they don't _want_ to learn the truth. Take for instance someone who believes
dinosaur bones were planted in the earth by the devil. I have a hard time
imagining that if you handheld them and took them step-by-step through the
scientific method (e.g., starting with archaeological sites), that by the end
of a year's worth of research, they would still disagree with the mainstream
scientific view.

And that's the cool thing about science: you don't have to take anyone's word
for it! You can check what people are saying all by yourself. Go out there
with ice core machines, thermometers, and satellites, and trace through the
same steps that the climate experts have taken. After years of following their
own work for yourself, there's no way you _couldn 't_ believe in global
warming.

I think what it really comes down to is that most people would rather live
with a comforting or reassuring lie than an uncomfortable truth, and even
given the opportunity and resources for discovering the truth themselves, they
would prefer not to.

~~~
jandrese
The big thing is you can't convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced.
They have already made up their mind, dug in their heels, and are willing to
fight to the death.

In some cases they would consider themselves a bad person if they didn't
defend their ideals to the death. This is especially true if there is a
religious aspect to their view. They don't call it a "reasoned position" on
religion, it is belief. Belief is strongest when you keep it despite
overwhelming evidence to the contrary. This is a core tenet of Christianity
and I suspect most other religions as well. Your faith will be tested by
"deceivers" constantly and you must keep it.

It's impossible to use logic or science to convince someone of something when
they think logic and science are tools of the devil.

It's also the Amiga effect. When a community grows smaller the remaining
members are the most ardent. Once you are down to just a handful of remaining
members all that is left are the die hard fanboys. All of the reasonable
people left a long time ago.

~~~
socalnate1
"Belief is strongest when you keep it despite overwhelming evidence to the
contrary. This is a core tenet of Christianity and I suspect most other
religions as well."

Huh? This isn't true at all.

~~~
sevensor
"Core tenet" overstates the case a bit, but _credo quia absurdum_ has a long
history in Christian apologetics.

------
FussyZeus
The explanation is a lot more simple I think.

Back in the old days, the way you showed you were better than everyone else
was owning the nicest car, having air conditioning, or having a powered mower.

Now that more or less everyone has more or less everything, the only ways we
can fulfill the basic instinct to be better than our neighbors is engaging in
these kind of "all the sheep think this happened, but really..." ideas.
Psuedo-intellectualism at it's finest.

You could show these people facts all day, it doesn't matter. Hell if you took
one of them up in one of those Space Jets they'd probably swear you were
faking it somehow, because the longer you hold onto a belief, the more
invested in it you are, the more it's going to wound your ego to admit you're
wrong. Most people would rather take a bullet than admit they were wrong
(especially Americans and Brits) so that's how we end up with the Flat Earth
people.

~~~
lordnacho
I think you're onto something. Most people I know who want to appear smart
find it necessary to be contrarian. Most of what they say is can be rephrased
as "ordinary people just believe everything they're taught, but I've learned
how to think so (9/11, illuminati, global warming, anti-vaccine, and so on but
only one madness)".

------
jonjacky
I have always suspected that the Flat Earth society was a put-on - a joke.
There is a certain very British kind of humor where you assume some absurd
position and stick to it with a straight face no matter what - you never crack
a smile or break character. The pet store owner in the Monty Python parrot
routine is a good example.

I recall when I was a kid, a Flat Earth guy was interviewed on TV after John
Glenn's orbital flight. The interviewer pointed out that Glenn could see the
round earth out his window and he could see he was passing over the entire
circumference of the Earth every ninety minutes and ground stations around the
world could track him coming over the horizon and passing overhead and ...
etc. etc. The flat earth guy earnestly explained that Glenn was just circling
around the edge - the perimeter - of the flat Earth, don't you see? - all the
while making circular hand motions around the edge of the the flat table top
where he was seated. I figured even then that the flat earth guy was just
putting on the interviewer, daring him to say what he was no doubt thinking:
"Oh for pity's sake, come off it". But both of them played along, neither of
them let on that he thought the whole interview was just a joke.

------
api
I've been getting a kick out of the flat Earth thing. I've figured it as a
"guerrilla ontology" or "alternate reality" prank in the tradition of Robert
Anton Wilson, the Church of the Subgenus, the Incunabula Papers, etc. Either
that or it's a skeptic troll of the "alt media" community.

------
FreedomToCreate
Why don't they all just get together and walk over to the edge of the planet
and see if there is a cliff or not. Seems like a really easy "theory" to
prove. A coupe hundred people walking together while live blogging there
attempt to the world should be save from secret NASA police.

~~~
lucozade
Why bother? why would they want to prove themselves wrong?

Why don't you keep walking in one direction then tap them on the back when
you've gone the whole way to prove tou're right?

When you argue against people who have no interest in evidence, it's really
very tricky

------
DarkTree
I am trying to think of a way to prove without a doubt that the earth is not
flat. I thought about sending them into space, and having them look through a
window at the round earth suspended in the black. But then I almost know what
they would say; the window is somehow distorting the true appearance of the
earth. If it doesn't conform to their view, they will create reasons as to
why. There are so many similar examples of people rejecting new
information/evidence within our world now.

~~~
BlackFly
Measure your shadow at solar noon, fly south and measure your shadow at solar
noon there. (Solar noon may differ from 1200.)

Essentially, just repeat this ancient experiment:
[http://www.juliantrubin.com/bigten/eratosthenes.html](http://www.juliantrubin.com/bigten/eratosthenes.html)

~~~
tzs
That only works if the people you are trying to convince believe that the Sun
is far enough away for its rays to be essentially parallel at the two
measuring locations.

Do flat Earth believers believe in a sufficiently large solar system for that
to be true?

------
DanBlake
Is this not easy to prove its false? Just take a flight from the southern tip
of Chile to South Australia. If the earth is indeed flat, the flight would
take 24+ hours. But since they would fly over Antarctica, it only takes ~10.

I suppose one explanation could be that the 747 flight they are in somehow
gained the ability to go faster than a F16 at maximum thrust.

~~~
shmageggy
FTA:

> [The theory is that] "GPS devices are rigged to make airplane pilots think
> they are flying in straight lines around a sphere when they are actually
> flying in circles above a disc."

~~~
DanBlake
my reply has to do with the unexpected time difference, not the GPS. When a
flight (according to the flat earth) should take 24 hours and only takes 12.

~~~
aidenn0
A circle is longer than a straight line, so it would explain the time
difference too.

------
teh_klev
If you fancy a trip down this particular rabbit hole:

[http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/03/flat-earth-
societ...](http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/03/flat-earth-society-
controlled-op.html)

[http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/search/label/Controlled%2...](http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/search/label/Controlled%20Opposition)

[https://www.youtube.com/user/ericdubay77/videos](https://www.youtube.com/user/ericdubay77/videos)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5i_iDyUTCg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5i_iDyUTCg)

------
danharaj
It's interesting to me that they use language superficially similar to the
language of rationality and science to justify their beliefs. The belief is
ridiculous, but how many people have opinions that they rationalize as
scientific that aren't so ridiculous but still unjustified? It's easier to
convince yourself that you're 'rational' than it is to be 'rational'.

~~~
Grishnakh
The entire field of "alternative medicine" is just like this: scientific-
sounding, rationalized as scientific, but in reality not at all.

------
oxplot
The absurdity of this intrigued me and I dropped by their site. Read a few
threads and it seems like they're not fond of satellite photography and rely
on their senses almost exclusively. So here's a little question for them: why
does a ship seem to "sink" into the ocean the further it gets?

~~~
lordnacho
It practice ships disappear into optical obscurity before you can see that
only the top half is visible. And even that could just be a big wave, right?

~~~
oxplot
Not really. A big enough ship combined with a clear day and a set of
binoculars works pretty well. As for the big wave, repeat the experiment
enough times to filter out the noise.

------
pklausler
I love that there's a Flat Earth Society of Australia and I wonder whether
they think they're on top or below the disk.

In short, we have a crisis of epistemology in our culture, and facts
(empirical, repeatable, independent measurements) don't win arguments any
more.

~~~
Grishnakh
Yes, and that's why western (or at least American) civilization is likely
doomed to being eclipsed by the Chinese before too long. Irrationality like
that just isn't compatible with being a leading, technological society.

~~~
winfred
What makes you think the Chinese aren't equally irrational?

~~~
Grishnakh
Because I don't see a Creationism Museum or a bunch of megachurches over
there, or a bunch of loony conspiracy theorists, flat-earthers, moon-landing-
deniers, etc.

------
coldcode
I've always said there are people who are so set in their wrong beliefs about
something that if they believed the sun rose in the west you could point them
east in the morning and they would still persist in ignoring the reality.

------
guard-of-terra
Their model is surprisingly waterproof for tinfoil hatters. Genuinely elegant.

~~~
marcosdumay
I just loved how, instead of simply rejecting gravitation (why would they need
it?) they rationalized an incredibly more contrived explanation out of General
Relativity.

I'm still not convinced they are serious.

------
seanieb
I find Flat-Earthers belief as surprising as an educated person believing in
God.

~~~
iLoch
-1 for steering this towards a religious debate.

I'm not religious and don't believe in a god, but who's to say there isn't a
god? We still don't have an explanation for how we're here. Until then, I'd
say it's as fair a theory as any. Folks who believe in a god simply have a
reason to believe, and that works for them.

~~~
seanieb
I'm not making any judgements either way. I simply stated and the other
commenter agreed that there are similarities.

