

Nathan Barry’s $5k App Challenge: My Seasoned Bootstrappy Advice - route3
http://unicornfree.com/2013/difficulties-for-nathan-barrys-app-experiment/

======
SMrF
"I know Hacker News types think that’s a great list of niches, but it’s
actually a really terrible one. You can’t sell to ANY of those people."

This piece of the conversation really left me wanting more, especially since
I've been using that very same list with no success over the years. What are
some good niches? Better yet, what's a heuristic for picking good niches? She
seems to suggest we should focus on an audience we already have, as Nathan has
with web developers (designers?), or that we could easily build. So I am the
local corporate javascript expert: perhaps I could rally that into an audience
of javascript developers or maybe even people that really need javascript
developers?

~~~
SMrF
"Not only do those audiences not buy things, not only are they scattered and
incoherent and unprofessional and in many cases incompetent and/or broke…"

Ok, so to perhaps answer my own question I'm just going to reverse this. A
good niche buys things (specifically software if you're selling it). A good
niche is well defined, easy to find and filled with competent people with
money to spend.

I think it's interesting that we are defining a kind of person, not a job
description or industry.

~~~
klaut
the keywords here are audiences vs niches. See, audences are made of people
with worldviews. Niche is.. well, impersonal agregate, an industry - without
any beliefs, pains, dreams...

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charlieirish
This seems to be a fairly common problem amongst developers and designers.

The first problem is actually shipping something that customers can buy. I'll
skip over this because both Nathan and Amy have certainly been able to do
that. So the next step, the 'white whale' project is the infamous second
project.

The advice out there suggests either:

1) Outsource Development (it certainly helps if you're a developer)

or

2) Learn it the hard way and do everything yourself

Rob Walling has certainly had fantastic success himself - all by outsourcing.
In fact, if I remember correctly, Rob struggled to successfully launch
countless products before he chose a different route. Rob chose to purchase
existing businesses (HitTail, Beach Towels etc.) and then started marketing
them . I don't believe he had any success before that.

Amy Hoy has had great success with building everything herself - Freckle being
a great example. However, Amy has also failed with Charm: "It ended up with me
spending 2 years and $200k on something I had to shut down."

It seems like it's not just as simple as choosing either option 1 or option 2.
There are examples and counter-examples to both options.

~~~
rubeng
I'm a big fan of outsourcing development as that was the route I chose to
launch my product (<http://www.bidsketch.com>) in a much shorter time than it
took when I was doing everything myself.

I outsourced the early code and design. Quality of both was shaky, but I only
had $3,000 to put into it so I wasn't working with much. I later picked up on
the last 25% of the development to get into a beta (since my cash ran out),
but I was very glad I took this approach.

I've since been able to work with higher quality of developers and designers
and improved both areas, but when you have a product that's solving a real
problem, customers will be more than happy to pay for that shaky 1st version
(as they did with mine).

That said, I have a dev background and learning Rails before outsourcing it
was a big help. I know people that don't have a dev background and
successfully outsourced dev of their products (I even helped a couple pick
their developers), but it's a bit tougher and it helps if you have at least
someone with a dev background that can help you pick the right developer.

~~~
ahoyhere
Ruben, thanks for chiming in with your experience!

You had development experience and could tell what was going on… and Nathan
didn't, which is why I was discouraging him from that route.

I personally don't know anyone w/o dev chops who fully outsourced the
development of their product, with success.

I'd love to hear about how your friends made it work. Was it with your help?

~~~
rubeng
You know, after I helped them out with picking a developer, they didn't ask
for help once development started. I offered to help but they either didn't
run into problems or didn't come to me when they did.

These are the ones that were successful at it...many more were not. But I
don't know if the ratio is the same for people with/without dev experience
(plus sample size is too small).

What I do know is that most:

1\. Got help picking a developer initially

2\. Had some guidelines on how to work with a developer

3\. Had no development experience

4\. Had to get learn how to outsource and made some mistakes (but eventually
made it work)

Outsourcing is tough at first but it gets easier. Like any skill, you have to
get better at it.

In any case, I do think it's a great idea to learn how to program so you're
not so helpless if/when problems come up.

~~~
rwalling
Ruben nailed it with this list. In my experience outsourcing is a continuum;
it's not a never/always situation. Meaning you can increase your chance of
success by having the factors Ruben mentioned above in place. I would also add
that these factors make it easier to outsource your app:

1\. Having dev skills

2\. Building a mobile app or WP plugin (i.e., something simple) vs. a SaaS app
(i.e. tons of moving parts and more ongoing maintenance)

3\. Experience outsourcing in the past. It is absolutely a learned skill and
the more you do it the better you get.

If you have none of the things Ruben and I have listed (so you're not a dev,
you're building a SaaS or other complex app, it's your first time outsourcing,
etc...) you have a very, very low chance of succeeding. And if you have every
single one you're on the opposite end - IMO the swing could literally be from
10% chance to 90% chance of success depending on the factors you have in
place.

~~~
charlieirish
Rob, rubeng, this is fantastic insight. It sounds like you have to start small
to learn the ropes however ambitious you are. i.e. even if you want to build a
SaaS app, if you've got no experience, you will likely fail.

So, if you're new to development, it's probably best to build small products
(wp plugins, niche sites etc.) to build your portfolio, earn a little cash and
more importantly increase your knowledge and experience. Amy, I'm not sure you
would agree with this but I'd love to hear your views.

Aside: Rob, you mentioned that outsourcing is a continuum and something that
needs to be learned. Is it possible that some people just get lucky with a
great outsourced developer? For example, you've said on various podcasts that
you're an advocate of VAs but have you had more than 1 or 2? Presumably, as
soon as one works, you stick with him/her - perhaps that's luck rather than
learning?

~~~
rwalling
>>So, if you're new to development, it's probably best to build small products
(wp plugins, niche sites etc.) to build your portfolio, earn a little cash and
more importantly increase your knowledge and experience.

Yes, this is the tact I would take. I talked about this exact topic in-depth
on a recent episode of Foolish Adventure:
[http://foolishadventure.com/audio/how-to-market-your-
softwar...](http://foolishadventure.com/audio/how-to-market-your-software-
with-rob-walling-fa128/)

Early successes are huge not only for you learning the ropes of
outsourcing/marketing and giving yourself a small financial cushion, but also
for building your confidence that you can make this happen.

>>Rob, is it possible that some people just get lucky with a great outsourced
developer?

Good point. This is definitely possible. In my list of the 3 factors above I
should have added a 4th: You find an awesome developer, whether through luck,
having a great network, or knowing how to hire.

But it's just another variable that impacts that continuum I mentioned and
pushes you more towards that 90% or 10% end.

>>For example, you've said on various podcasts that you're an advocate of VAs
but have you had more than 1 or 2? Presumably, as soon as one works, you stick
with him/her - perhaps that's luck rather than learning?

My success rate at hiring and managing VAs, developers, designers, writers,
etc... is waaay better than it was when I started (at least 2x better, maybe
3x). I attribute this to getting better at both hiring (i.e., choosing the
right fit) and managing/delegating (i.e. having more skill with outsourcing).

------
mijustin
Nathan and Amy: this is awesome. By letting us “listen in” on your dialogue
the lessons in here feel genuine. Great work.

To add a little fuel to the fire, I’ll make a few comments:

> Amy: "I’ve never seen anyone do successful presales for a software product,
> for the record."

I guess it depends on the definition of “successful” – Jason Cohen had 40 pre-
sales before he started building WPEngine: <http://blog.asmartbear.com/stop-
customer-interviews.html>

> Amy: "I don’t know ANYONE… ANYONE… who outsourced their product and made a
> success out of it."

Again, it depends on your definition of “success” but I personally think Rob
Walling is pretty successful, and he outsources almost all of his development:
<http://www.softwarebyrob.com>

~~~
ahoyhere
It depends more on your definition of "know." :)

Serious question: Isn't Rob originally a developer?

We outsource a lot of our development too, but outsourcing part (even if it's
a large part) as a developer is very different than outsourcing all of it, or
outsourcing the "core competency" of your product/business, or outsourcing all
the code from day 1. Which I still find sketchy and predict will land a person
in trouble if they are unable to work on their own product, just as I describe
in the transcript!

As for Jason, I didn't know that, that's great. He does write that 40
promised, but only "20 actually did before launch." What I meant, in my terse
way, was "presales to fund the development," which is what _I_ understood
Nathan to mean because of his only-$5k budget. Jason had some proof of concept
in 20 people but that probably paid for just about nothing :) Or… he was able
to get a significant pre-sale $$$ by reaching larger, institutional clients
with his connections and track record! Which isn't something a bootstrapper
starting out should count on.

Thanks for clarifying!

~~~
revorad
In the comments of his post, Jason wrote:

"Customers are bad about figuring out features, but good about explaining
their pain or what they'd like solved."

In your chat with Nathan, you said that people are _not_ good at explaining or
even noticing their pains. I guess your experience differs from Jason's in
that respect. Mine is probably somewhere in the middle :-)

So, if your prospects are not aware of their pain, how do you sell them your
solution?

I expect you have to educate them. It's probably unlikely that you just build
something, unveil it, and they go "Of course I need this! Why didn't I think
of it?! Silly me! Here's my money."

But then how long do you spend on educating them? Is this why you recommend
info products? So that you don't waste time educating for free?

Or do you recommend doing landing page tests?

This is turning into an interview, so I'll stop here. I don't expect you to
give away all the secrets you teach in your courses, but would appreciate
anything you can share. Thanks!

~~~
ahoyhere
We have to draw a line between "Customers" as in "Customer interviews" as in
"People I want to learn about to maybe build something for who MIGHT become
actual customers with money later" -- and actual customers, who are already
paying you money.

It's easier to get actual information out of actual customers, because they
have something concrete to start with (your existing product).

Speculating about potential problems with Customers™ of the first kind doesn't
work so well.

I don't think any of my products were products people would have complained
about to start with, but once we (yes!) educated them, they were excited.

Part of education means clearly showing the potential customer what pain
they're in that they're currently ignoring. Most people block out daily pain &
annoyances… even big ones. After all, if they haven't seen hope that it'll get
better, why constantly be upset by it? Natural human coping mechanism. I think
this is where big wins exist.

~~~
revorad
I agree with you that that's where the big wins exist. But, there also lies
the eternal tarpit of dead products - email software, project management apps,
to-do list apps, etc.

