
China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations - abc-xyz
https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/04/01/china-warned-countries-not-attend-un-meeting-xinjiang-human-rights-violations/
======
oxycontinOD
A painful but important reminder about Lu Guang, a photojournalist captured by
the goverment for taking photos of the damage suffered by countryman (and
nature) due pollution from chinese factories:
[https://imgur.com/gallery/XwzByK7](https://imgur.com/gallery/XwzByK7)

Something needs to be done, I'm not sure what but inaction will only aggravate
the situation.

~~~
simonh
I really do appreciate the sentiment, but with an authoritarian regime like
this there's isn't an awful lot other nations can practically do that would
actually make a difference. Just look at North Korea, it's under total
economic lock-down but still continues along on it's brutally oppressive way.
It's not that I'm happy about it, any suggestions welcome.

~~~
yumraj
While it is true the economic sanctions didn't work in NK and Iran, similar
conditions worked in former-USSR and they can and will work in China for a
simple reason: Folks in NK never experienced economic propsperity and were
brainwashed from day one, people in China are experiencing economic bounty and
as such are at the moment willing to overlook their government.

The day this economic progress slows down, the masses will turn and hopefully
revolt against the system. The only fear is that China is militarily very
strong and I believe that Western nations are probably afraid that this may
lead to WW-III, but in the absence of that, in the case of China economic
sanctions can indeed lead to internal revolt and collapse of the CCP like that
happened in former-USSR.

~~~
rohit2412
I keep on seeing this opinion that if China doesn't grow at 8%+ rate, there'll
be a revolution. Where does this idea come from?

China went through not just minimal growth, but policies that killed tens of
millions in the 1950-70s. I think the CCP is going to be very stable, and the
current technological surveillance infrastructure has only strengthened it.

------
FabHK
By the way, great to see the Hong Kong Free Press on the HN front page. It's
an independent, non-profit newspaper financed primarily by reader donations.

Hong Kong has basically only 3 English-language newspapers left: South China
Morning Post ([1], since 1903, but now owned by the mainland Alibaba group),
The Standard ([2], free, ad-financed), and HKFP.

Given the encroaching Chinese influence on HK (contra the Sino-British Joint
Declaration and the "One Country, Two Systems" principle [3], which specify
wide ranging autonomy of HK on internal matters until 2047), a free press in
HK is enormously important to safeguard HK's freedoms.

(If you care about it, please support the HK Free Press! (I'm not affiliated.)
Here:)

[https://www.hongkongfp.com/support-hong-kong-free-
press-2019...](https://www.hongkongfp.com/support-hong-kong-free-
press-2019-hk1-2m-funding-drive/)

[1] [https://www.scmp.com](https://www.scmp.com)

[2] [http://www.thestandard.com.hk](http://www.thestandard.com.hk)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems)

EDIT: typos, add "One Country, Two Systems"

~~~
jplayer01
Uh, wait. What happens in 2047? Is HK screwed then?

~~~
FabHK
It reverts wholly to China, and becomes a Chinese city like any other. No more
separate economic system, political system, currency, immigration, press, etc.

But China is basically pre-empting that by gradually tightening the screws
already. One of the factors (together with massive inequality and diminishing
economic opportunities) leading to the 2014 umbrella protests.

------
endorphone
China has begun quite a campaign of rogue diplomacy, a good example being the
continued saga of Canada abiding by its treaty with the United States and
holding Meng Wanzhou for due process of an extradition for charges laid in the
US.

In retaliation China has jailed a number of Canadians on invented charges and
are now leveraging trade in a farcical manner, claiming that Canadian products
are contaminated (which is rich coming from China) to try to lever the
government.

~~~
zanny
Rule of law vs rule of Xi Jinping.

~~~
mips_avatar
China is rule of law when convenient.

------
pleasecalllater
I'm wondering if people in China can see this website in Google.

Edit: to people who are downvoting this... check this thread
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19540562](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19540562)

~~~
chapium
People aren't downvoting this within 7 minutes of you posting.

~~~
thrwwy190401
>People aren't downvoting this within 7 minutes of you posting.

Obviously they are, or OP wouldn't have added that edit. You can see your
comment scores (as you know.)

Interestingly, I just read that China employs people to influence social
media. (Which Hacker News would fall under, I guess.) What I read was this,
I'll quote it in full:

    
    
       >China does this with its 50
       >Cent Party: people hired by the government to
       >post comments on social networking sites
       >supporting, and to challenge comments
       >opposing, party positions. 
    

This is from a book on privacy by a famous author. It would be interesting to
know if the people mentioned post to HN.

~~~
dang
Please don't break the site guideline which asks you not to insinuate
astroturfing on HN. See my recent explanation at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19538691](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19538691).

Plenty more at
[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20astroturfing&sort=by...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20astroturfing&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0).

~~~
thrwwy190401
my apologies. thank you for the informative link.

------
Brain_Thief
I say this kind of thing a lot, but I feel compelled to repeat myself. It
seems like every week brings more evidence of oppressive governments edging
ever closer toward a full-on 1984 nightmare scenario.

At this point the decision tree facing privacy activists, those concerned with
human rights, and those who support the expansion of western moral aspirations
is unambiguous.

Are you uncomfortable with China's aggressive censorship, human rights abuses,
and surveillance? Stop buying shit from them. Stop using their software. Nine
times out of ten you don't need it. Don't support corporations that enhance
the efficiency of the Chinese government's oppression in the name of profits.
Don't accept the idea that it's okay for giant corporations to bend to
whatever demands (however ominous) an authoritarian government hands to them
in the name of profit.

Exceptions arise, and no one's behavior is perfect. But the 1/10 case where
you absolutely MUST use a certain surveillance app or buy a certain widget
made by slaves in another country is not an excuse for throwing your hands up
and capitulating in the other nine cases you encounter every day. Many of us
on HN have the option to not support oppressive systems - I implore you to
exercise that option so that others may gain the ability to choose as well.

~~~
kuzehanka
> Are you uncomfortable with China's aggressive censorship, human rights
> abuses, and surveillance? Stop buying shit from them.

China is buying up realestate and farm land in every major western nation.
China is buying critical infrastructure across the globe via the Belt and Road
initiative[1][2]. China has become too big and too powerful to be stopped by
mere consumer action. They are not planning to wage a war on democracy,
they're planning to simply subsume it with soft power and emigration.

To stop China's hellish vision of the future from becoming reality, the
leaders of the developed world need to hit it with trade controls as hard as
they did Cuba. But so far it seems that everyone is choosing to sell out their
own country for those sweet Chinese RMB[3].

I see the sign of the times when I go to the largest shopping centre in the
Southern Hemisphere (Chadstone, Melbourne, Australia) and see little stands
advertising AU realestate in all-Chinese banners, staffed by Chinese agents
who don't even speak English. The citizens of the country they're selling are
not worth talking to.

[1] [https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-
la...](https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-lanka-also-
handed-over-port-to-china-to-pay-off-debt/)

[2] [https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-
africa/2016/04/16/...](https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-
africa/2016/04/16/a-despots-guide-to-foreign-aid)

[3] [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-08/chinese-
billionaire-h...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-08/chinese-billionaire-
huang-xiangmo-wants-political-donations-back/10794726)

~~~
Brain_Thief
While I understand your point, I strongly disagree with the implication that
individual actions are meaningless. People should not accept a "death by a
thousand cuts" behavioral paradigm when it comes to moral decisions in the
realm of consumption. Voting is a part of the situation, but voting is an
individual choice just like purchasing decisions.

~~~
skybrian
The thing is, spontaneous order mostly doesn't happen. You need organized
campaigns to make voting meaningful; if everyone votes for a different
candidate you're not going to get anywhere and will usually lose to parties
that are organized. The same is true in the market; individuals can't make
good buying decisions about things that aren't visible without labeling by
standards organizations or stores that set standards themselves.

While having popular support is essential, an organization is more than just
the sum of individual actions and this is what leadership is about.

------
sleazy_b
I think we will see what is happening to the Uighurs now as a genocide in that
it is an intentional destruction of a culture and people. I'm not sure what
can be done when a country so powerful as China is the perpetrator but it's
pretty terrible to watch as it is happening.

~~~
chaostheory
What is happening in Xinjiang is terrible, but let's be more specific. What's
happening is a more intense version of 'reverse genocide' and NOT ethnic
cleansing (which is what a generic label of 'genocide' implies). What's
reverse genocide? It's when you when you proactively encourage assimilation by
intermarriage with Han Chinese (where the family will become Han in culture &
treatment by Chinese society) and through the encouragement of mass migration
of Han Chinese. This is what has happened with both Mongolia and Tibet and
it's worked. When that doesn't work or is too slow, what you get is what's
happening in Xinjiang where people are either 'assisted' to assimilate with
the help of Han babysitters, or put in brainwashing camps which echoes the
Cultural Revolution. As horrific as it all is, it still not as terrible as
past campaigns of trying to achieve some form of "genetic purity" that's
happened in other countries outside of China.

> I'm not sure what can be done when a country

What are you willing to personally give up? Are you willing to pay more for
trinkets and electronics? e.g. A very conservative estimate would probably add
another $100 to the price of an iPhone. See a similar increase across many if
not most products. Are you willing for our economy to take a hit (i.e.
financial instability, temporary job losses, ...)?

As much as I dislike and disagree with Trump & his policies, I may disagree
with his execution of confronting China, but not with its general idea.

~~~
yorwba
> It's when you when you proactively encourage assimilation by intermarriage
> with Han Chinese

How is it encouraged? I was under the impression that Uyghurs and other
minority peoples aren't considered to be desirable marriage partners by most
Han Chinese.

~~~
chaostheory
Right now there's still a huge imbalance between men and women. While not
ideal for Han Chinese, just being able to marry and have children makes
intermarriage between other ethnic groups a necessity. When the end result is
you have a family that more or less looks Han and is culturally Han, no one
cares really about the means.

------
mirimir
As much as I tend to hate on China for its extreme policies of government
censorship and social control, it's somewhat disingenuous to tar them for
lobbying (even ~threatening) other UN diplomats.

I mean, doesn't ~everyone do it? Having been interested in the Palestinian
issue, and the build-up to the invasion of Iraq, it's pretty clear that Israel
and the US have done just what China is doing. And no, this isn't
whataboutism. I'm calling bullshit on the US etc for "pot calling the kettle
black" bullshit.

Also, although I'm not a huge fan of cultural relativism, it is true that
Chinese culture is _very_ old, and _very_ different from European culture.
Including the US and other former colonies, obviously. But maybe not so much
from India and other former colonies in Southeast Asia.

But anyway, given that, what's the argument that we're "right" and they're
"wrong"? Because God said so? But which God, then?

~~~
confusedhnguy
Obviously nobody cares about right or wrong. The average westerners only want
to accuse China so they can feel good about themselves for a while, and their
leaders only want to secure world domination.

Look at some of the comments here, people have no idea what they are talking
about. Seriously? A civil war is good in his/her book? How many people do you
think is going to die? And would the US and the Europe happily accept Chinese
refugees? It is fine for millions of people from other parts of the world to
die, billions to suffer, as long as it is for western values. Just look at the
Middle East.

Also, an unbaised standard does not exist when it comes to international
affairs. Do you think the billions of poor people in India are enjoying their
lives? How come the west always focus fire on the Chinese when they talk about
human right issues? Have you heard of the caste system?

About culture, as a Chinese living in the US, many Americans have asked me
whether I eat dogs, or do I have microwaves/tap water back in China. Do you
think they will change their minds even if I try my best to explain my
experience to them? Americans want culture diversity as much as kids want to
visit a zoo: lol look at these barbarians, now let's go back to our modern,
superior way of life.

Edit: People read several biased articles online and think they know
everything about China, because why would the media lie? We obviously do not
need to set foot on this huge country to see it for ourselves, a few news
reports are all we need.

~~~
guitarbill
> and their leaders only want to secure world domination.

projection?

> the west always focus fire on the Chinese when they talk about human right
> issues?

we don't. maybe you just pay attention to those stories more though.

> Also, an unbaised standard does not exist when it comes to international
> affairs.

i'll agree with this, however it doesn't make morally wrong things less wrong,
or mean people don't suffer.

> as a Chinese living in the US, many Americans have asked me [...] do I have
> microwaves/tap water back in China

this could just be a weird thing Americans do, even in Canada or Europe
they'll ask if it's safe to drink tap water.

out of interest, how many of your countrymen to have access to clean tap
water?

~~~
confusedhnguy
Judging from how active and well-received Dalai Lama is in the west and how
many westerners have bothered to go to Tibet to see it for themselves, I would
say yes you focus too much on our human right issues for how little you care
about what's really happening.

Right or wrong do exist, I also think Xi is an a-hole. But people ignore
issues that are "inconvenient" for them and their allies is what drives me
crazy. I would prefer people put their own oxygen masks on before helping
others.

For the southern parts of China, I would say almost all the countrymen have
access to tap water. For the northwestern parts, it is still pretty bad, a lot
of them still rely on rivers/wells, although I don't have numbers. As for how
clean the water is, that is something I have no idea about, and I am not
optimistic.

Edit: grammar.

~~~
mirimir
I used to be a total supporter of the Dalai Lama. I mean, great philosophy.
Great clothes. Great ritual. Great sand paintings. And so on.

But then I starting thinking about what life would have been like in Tibet,
under the Buddhist theocracy. Maybe benign enough, but not so much freedom for
the serfs.

