
Fuck The Vessel - portobello
https://thebaffler.com/latest/fuck-the-vessel-wagner
======
walterbell
From [https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/hudson-
ya...](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/hudson-yards-is-the-
hotel-california-of-new-york)

 _> Hudson Yards is a private space masquerading as a public one ... In
reality it is an enclave, a high-end corporate park buoyed by six billion
dollars in tax breaks—an amount that dwarfs the subsidies offered to Amazon
for its scuttled Queens headquarters—and designed as a kind of amenity-stuffed
Hotel California that its residents never have to leave ... The only thing
that Hudson Yards is missing is its own weather ... what Hudson Yards really
feels like is a nice airport terminal, with the High Line as its moving
walkway"_

~~~
caprese
> an amount that dwarfs the subsidies offered to Amazon

one thing I really love about NYC is how easy it is to deflect attention and
get what you want

exhibit A: "tech workers" make the same amount in NYC as they do in the Bay
Area, they fly completely under the radar and the inequality warriors point
fingers at finance instead, serving to highlight the fickle nature of an
unorganized protest where the cause/perpetuator of inequality is so easily
interchangeable to whoever is the richest. Granted, these cities don't really
know much about each other's struggles, so you see a lot of the same arguments
rehashed and evolve in different ways ie: Austin recently dealt with a
cultural appropriation uproar over a "Bodega", and not cultural appropriation
from NYC lol, its just whoever is the loudest.

exhibit B: Walmart is practically banned from NYC in an effort to save/protect
local businesses, while every major, minor, and luxury retailer enjoys larger
than life flagship versions of their stores positioned in space constrained
Manhattan.

exhibit C: The way tax breaks are made relevant news at all. Hudson Yards
isn't the only place getting it.

~~~
cgb223
> "tech workers" make the same amount in NYC as they do in the Bay Area

Is the housing any cheaper? If so I'm moving

~~~
notyourday
2400 sq feet two story 3 bd/2ba apartment with 30 minutes commute to Google
via subway $4k/mo

~~~
caprese
maybe in Hoboken on the New Jersey side??? I mean its a viable option but
people don't generally talk about it like its a viable option in public?

Maybe the west side of the Bronx on the express train?

~~~
notyourday
Brooklyn. Off the L.

------
crazygringo
I mean, I'm not a big fan of Hudson Yards...

...but this piece doesn't seem to make any coherent argument. Nowhere does she
explain _why_ she dislikes it aesthetically.

She simply seems to dislike that it was designed to be Instagrammable (is that
so bad for art/sculpture which is inherently visual?), has some bizarre
thoughts on climbing staircases (she's against climbing the Eiffel Tower as
well, does she hate exercise?) and using elevators, and was unhappy with an
attempted policy on photo usage that has now been changed.

Feels like fake outrage to me.

~~~
CptFribble
(one of) the other layers is that its only purpose is to inflate real estate
values of luxury apartments that already were built only to be sold to the
criminally-wealthy international investor class that uses luxury US real
estate as a form of international banking/money laundering, while masquerading
in the press as a "community" and the Vessel itself as a "public space," when
in reality it is anything but.

The comparison to the Eiffel Tower is to say at least that structure has a
restaurant and a shop at the top, so there's a reason to go up there.

The author does not seem to have special hate for elevators, only that an
elevator for a sixteen-floor staircase that doesn't actually have anything at
the top further reinforces the cynicism behind the design, which is in fact
the major thrust of the article.

~~~
mcguire
See also the Gateway Arch in St. Louis and the Statue of Liberty.

~~~
frozenport
Except those aren't decorations to inflate property values.

------
yathern
I visited Hudson Yards and the Vessel on the opening day. I don't find the
Vessel itself to be as architecturally offensive as others, I think it's a
fine idea. A seven story mall, however, is a preposterous idea. In a day and
age when malls are dying. Especially in a city! Malls were made to emulate
city centers, and Manhattan already is great to wander around.

The whole experience is just so very clearly synthetic. There's no unifying
theme or feel, other than that of "we spent a whole lot of money making this
place, it can't fail".

I imagine I'll continue to see lots of marketing about it over the next 10
years, desperately trying to make it a tourist attraction. Maybe they'll
succeed.

~~~
whistlerbrk
I work at WTC and this is exactly how I feel about the area under the Oculus
connecting the Brookfield Mall. It's like a scene out of Gattaca, a massive
dizzyling underground mall/complex with no natural light filled with luxury
shops that no one appears to actually shop at. Everyone walks through in a
daze, seemingly impressed by the magnitude of the cavern but at the same I
can't help to think they feel as equally empty and drained by it as me.

Developments like Hudson Yards seem to be cargo culturing culture. If we build
a public arts space, offices, restaurants, shops, and a playground then surely
people will arrive, right?! Feels very weird.

~~~
walterbell
_> luxury shops that no one appears to actually shop at_

3D walk-in billboards.

~~~
caprese
Exactly, I think of them as exhibits. I've looked at brick and mortar as
museums for a long time and I'm not the only one.

My wonderment and praise for the gallery curator shattered by the clerk trying
to upsell me on a store credit card or data mining loyalty program.

"Why are you talking?"

Must be the quizzical expression my face makes as I take slightly too long to
reply.

For actually purchasing something going into a retail store is basically a
game of "how is the sales person going to lie to me today". It should come
with a laugh track streamed live on twitch.

------
Nelkins
Well at the very least one thing it has in common with the Eiffel Tower is
that both were initially met with universal derision. The Eiffel Tower is now
one of the most iconic and beloved landmarks in Paris...time will tell if the
"Vessel" gets the same treatment.

~~~
SiempreViernes
The things met by universal derision then kept that reputation is by far the
larger set.

Additionally, the Eiffel tower mostly drew criticism during its _construction_
[0], not once it was finished. If the vessel could muster the "it's not
finished" defence, then that would probably settle people down. It does look
like a cool _start_ on something impressive, but the vacuousness that Wagner
objects to _shows_ : the thing looks unfinished, a cool 3d printed prototype
you made to look at and then put on a shelf after 10 minutes.

Frankly the pictures form the actual construction were more impressive than
the finished things, just because before completion you could always try to
imagine it completed as something _more_.

[0]: [https://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chapter-and-
verse/2015/1120/...](https://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chapter-and-
verse/2015/1120/How-the-Eiffel-Tower-outlasted-its-critics)

------
leftyted
It's not that I think this building (or attraction or whatever) is beautiful
and worthwhile. It's just that I don't care that much and I'm a bit skeptical
of people who do. I don't think it would matter what kind of
sculpture/attraction/landmark/etc was built here -- people would still be
criticizing it because there are a lot of people who pour derision onto
everything the ultra-rich do. It's like a hobby.

I think the two main motivators of this behavior are 1. jealousy and 2. a way
for middle class people to distract themselves from the emptiness of their own
lives: "Look at those rich people, their lives are so empty! They are so
tasteless and they don't understand what _really_ matters." Little do they
know that rich people are distracting themselves from the emptiness of _their_
lives by building this kind of stuff in the first place.

Me personally, I find it hard to criticize people who are building things. I
wonder what the thousands of people who built these buildings think of them.
I'm all ears if someone wants to make a serious case about what should have
been built here instead and who should have paid for it. But this isn't that.

~~~
icebraining
> I'm all ears if someone wants to make a serious case about what should have
> been built here instead and who should have paid for it.

One of her main points is that this discussion should have been had _before_
The Vessel was constructed. The article as a whole is more of a criticism of
the whole system that spawned it than of the construction itself.

------
pesmhey
Classism works both ways. I can’t fucking stand poor people who have nothing
more to hate on rich people about than that they have money. And the converse
is true, rich people who think poverty is some moral failing. This article is
riddled with, fuck people who have more than me. Ugh, get the fuck over
yourself, no matter what social position you may have happened to find
yourself in. Not ‘Fuck The Vessel’ just ‘Fuck You’.

~~~
scandox
> no matter what social position you may have happened to find yourself in

People don't "find themselves" in a social position. It isn't like they
wandered into the wrong part of town. People suffering poverty are angry about
wealth because it represents something withheld from them by an opaque and
unfair system (how opaque and how unfair is the only thing under debate). Rich
people who think poverty is a moral failing are afraid of losing what they
have and in need of a feeling of intrinsic superiority because their greatest
anxiety is that they don't deserve what they have.

~~~
presscast
I'm not sure how this contradicts, or even has anything to do with the parent
post. It seems like you're reading excessively far into a turn-of-phrase.

~~~
geofft
It is relevant to the parent post because there's legitimate reason for the
poor to have animus against the rich, and not vice versa. The parent post is
attempting to treat "poor" and "rich" as something like rival sports teams
that are on equal footing, because that's required to criticize the poor mad
at the rich in the same way you'd criticize the rich mad at the poor.

~~~
presscast
>It is relevant to the parent post because there's legitimate reason for the
poor to have animus against the rich, and not vice versa

The parent poster is specifically referring to a specific type of _unfounded_
animus. Namely: having no argument other than "they have more money than me"
to justify said animus.

~~~
geofft
The parent poster wrote " _poor people who have nothing more to hate on rich
people about than that they have money_ ", which sounds like well-founded
animus to me.

Here's a way to think about it - what is the corresponding thing for the rich
to hate on the poor for? Are the rich jealous of not having money? Are they
envious of those who cannot pay more for housing simply because a building of
questionable merit faces it (one of the examples given in the article)? How is
that founded? The rich can easily get themselves into that position, should
they be desirous of it.

There is an arguable parallel in the rich who see the poor as being a moral
failure for merely not having money and the poor who see the rich as being a
moral failure for merely having money, but a) I think the poor have a better
claim to well-foundedness there, even if it is slight, in that the rich quite
clearly have the ability to stop having money with a snap of their fingers
where the poor do not obviously have the ability to start having money, and b)
the article does not seem to say that merely having money is a moral failure -
at best it says that misusing money is a moral failure.

~~~
presscast
>The parent poster wrote "poor people who have nothing more to hate on rich
people about than that they have money", which sounds like well-founded animus
to me.

Let me make sure I understand, because I fear we may be talking past each
other.

Are you suggesting that the simple fact that one has more money than you is
sufficient to justify animus?

(I'm happy to discuss the rest of your post once we clear up this particular
point; it seems fundamental.)

~~~
tobr
> Are you suggesting that the simple fact that one has more money than you is
> sufficient to justify animus?

Not if the difference is trivial, but absolutely when it is as enormous and as
unmotivated as it often is. Why would it be strange that obviously unfair
inequality would be a source of animus?

~~~
Thriptic
Saying "I hate you for having more than me and I want your stuff" is just
straight up jealousy, and it should be easy to understand why wealthy people
respond with hostility to this, creating a negative feedback loop.

~~~
tobr
Your quote is a straw man, but what does it matter if jealousy is involved or
not? You can disregard any animosity stemming from social injustices with that
logic. Women are just straight up jealous because men are paid more. Blacks
are just straight up jealous because whites have longer life expectancy. LGBTs
are just straight up jealous because straight cis people don’t have to conceal
a central part of who they are.

~~~
Thriptic
I think my interpretation of the thread was that anger towards people with
money just for having money was legitimate. If your thought is that those
people are actively retarding the ability of the poor to improve their
situation, then I think you have some ground to stand on, but otherwise I
don't think it is reasonable. I think it's ok to wish things were different; I
think it's ok to be angry at a system; I think it's ok to be angry at people
who have personally done you wrong; but I don't think it's ok to be angry at
people who haven't personally done you wrong just because they have something
you don't. I actually happen to fall into one of those minority groups that
you mentioned, and I don't hate the other people that can do things that I
can't; I hate the system and the people perpetuating the stupidity. That may
predominantly be composed of people in that other group, but it is certainly
not anywhere near all of them, and I have the ability to make that distinction
and avoid prejudgements. That being said, all of that nuance went unstated in
my original post, so my bad.

~~~
rosser
When (enough of) the people who benefit most from a system that's already
biased in their favor unironically tell the folks on the far end of that
benefit curve that they just need to work harder, they had the same
opportunities as anyone else, it's their own fault, or whatever, I don't think
it's terribly unreasonable for the people on the receiving end of that
"wisdom" to develop a general sort of resentment for their "betters."

"Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing
exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-
housed, well-warmed, and well-fed." — Herman Melville

EDIT: Phrasing.

------
whack
This article is a perfect encapsulation of our current culture of contempt. It
is no longer sufficient, or even possible, to just disagree or have different
tastes.

 _" I'm personally not a big fan of that building's aesthetics, but maybe
there are others who do like it."_

That would have been a reasonable opinion to hold... instead we have: _"
Designed by Thomas Heatherwick, one of architecture’s premier grifters... The
depth of architectural thinking at work here makes a kiddie-pool seem
oceanic"_

I hope to God I never have to work with someone like the author.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/opinion/sunday/political-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/opinion/sunday/political-
polarization.html)

~~~
ilovecaching
I think you missed the crux of the argument which is that it’s very
proletariat. It does nothing for the community and is designed to benifit the
criminally wealthy.

Also it’s ugly af. I hope I never have to work with someone with your tastes
if you think that’s what beauty is.

~~~
jhbadger
To be fair, I'd say that that is is better than any of the 1960s-1990s
"Brutalist" style stuff that reminds me of Communist-style nonsense. That
being said, given that that the average inhabitant isn't working class but a
professional, why? Aren't there better alternatives at your price level?

~~~
fishnchips
Whatever can be said about the Soviet Bloc architecture, those projects were
always either utilitarian or served some propaganda purpose, and a staircase
to nowhere would be neither.

That said, I dislike the tone of the article.

------
dluan
This article is a criticism of capital, which is what The Baffler does.

The fact that comments here are pearl clutching over "tone" or "author's
apparent empty life" is kind of amusing to watch. Partly because HN commenters
and hackers would presumably agree with the article's criticism of something
like IP-selfie ownership for the sole purpose of advertising and inflating
value of nearby condos. But I think most folks here are triggered by the whiff
of marxist tone.

Hudson yards is a project by real estate developers targeting other
speculators, so it's not as bad as say gentrifying incumbent locals, or it's
not necessarily about the opportunity cost of having a green park there
instead.

It's just a fish-bowl example of how capital can work in its own world and
feel so out of touch with the rest of the city. If you've ever walked around
new CBD's in China in the 00's, you'd often find similar high rises flanked
with empty luxury stores and it was just really obvious what the point of it
was. Only there, there's no false pretense of high art or design, just money.

------
iandanforth
"We were on assignment. We were supposed to kill 2 birds with one stone.
Destroy a piece of corporate art...

Operation Latte Thunder, go.

and trash a franchise coffee bar."

Let's hope they put a starbucks in the thing.

------
slyall
The work reminds me of this young adult Sci-Fi story I read when I was a kid:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Stairs_(Sleator_novel...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Stairs_\(Sleator_novel\))

------
milemi
I've never seen it called "a receptacle for Godzilla's egg", so I thought I'd
contribute that here.

------
quickthrower2
“Fuck the vessel” can be taken more than one way. But that aside, I think is
is great to have something weird in a city you can go visit. Something unusual
that isn’t a business or a residence or a road. I think people stuck in a city
all the time are missing out on nature, but something like the Vessel is an
opportubity to escape and do something pointless for a few minutes.

~~~
logifail
> I think is is great to have something weird in a city you can go visit.
> Something unusual that isn’t a business or a residence or a road

In my experience of _walking_ around cities I visit, you find this kind of
thing just as soon as you stop(!) following your tourist map and/or blog post
listing "20 best things to see in Florence/London/Paris/Berlin/$wherever".

"Weird" things are - and have _always_ been - there just waiting to be found.
We really don't need Heatherwick to build them.

~~~
quickthrower2
I agree. I used to follow the “Lonely Planet” guides but now I’d rather plan
as little as possible. You’ll bump into people to recommend stuff. There are
exceptions e.g. long hikes need some planning.

------
sigmaprimus
Personally, I like the look of it and the idea of walking around it whilst
taking pictures. I can appreciate the argument that it may descriminate
against people with disabilities due to lack of elevators (if that is true).
To be fair I also think it looks somewhat shwarmaish, but really what is wrong
with that? After all its in the "Big Apple"!

------
csomar
NYC has failed to cultivate and maintain public spaces. Its' parks sucks, its
subway is dirty and old, it has tons of poor and homeless people. I'm
certainly comparing to other cities (like London or HongKong) for its size and
importance.

Hong Kong has much nicer public spaces. This means the public go to these
public spaces and people socialize. That's not possible in NYC. Because the
city public shared space is a piece of junk. People avoid it and segregate in
select clubs/bars/restaurant. That means they don't go alone but with friends.
So NYC is very circle based.

As the city public services gets shittier, the city becomes more like Paris
and so are the people: Rude. The massive inflow of tourists doesn't help
either. The article is just symptom: It just shows how frustrated Yankees are.

The city needs more spaces like the Hudson Yards. Spaces that integrate with
the subway. Enable easy transfer, offer nice sitting areas, and let people
socialize.

------
voldacar
>It is a Vessel for the depths of architectural cynicism, of form without
ideology and without substance: an architectural practice that puts the
commodifiable image above all else, including the social good, aesthetic
expression, and meaningful public space

or maybe it's just some staircases

------
acomjean
I get all my NY news from the "gothamist" (I miss NY snark sometimes). They've
had good "Vessel" coverage: Including that the name might change: And the
controversy over who owns the images you take of the sculpture (or whatever it
is).

[http://gothamist.com/2019/03/21/vessel_name.php](http://gothamist.com/2019/03/21/vessel_name.php)

[http://gothamist.com/tags/vessel](http://gothamist.com/tags/vessel)

also somewhat relevant:

[http://gothamist.com/2019/03/22/native_new_yorkers_complain....](http://gothamist.com/2019/03/22/native_new_yorkers_complain.php)

------
booleandilemma
Well, at least it's better than Metronome.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronome_(public_artwork)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronome_\(public_artwork\))

------
camdenlock
The phrase "criminally wealthy" used by the author is a dog whistle for class
supremacy, a destructive ideology that we need to be talking about a lot more.

It's about as helpful an ideology as white supremacy, just with different
variables: instead of wanting to destroy other people along racial boundaries,
the class supremacist wants to destroy people who aren't members of the
sanctioned economic class.

Fuck class supremacy. Let's collectively ignore this kind of hateful screed so
we can focus on reducing suffering for all, not just for members of some
arbitrary group.

------
cwp
I can't make heads or tails of this. The author clearly has an ax to grind,
that much is clear. But since she dislikes—no, hates—everything about this
project, it's kinda hard to tell what the actual issue is.

It feels tribal. This thing is associated with a group I hate, so it's ugly,
shallow, stupid, pointless, corrupt, and in every way unclean.

Yeesh.

------
dwighttk
If you take a selfie on top of The Vessel while drinking from your Vessyl do
you unlock an easter egg?

------
module0000
>> Fuck the Vessel

Or, the author could do something about it other than whine. Make an ADA case
regarding the limited floors accessible by elevators for instance - that's a
freebie.

------
Zigurd
It's a shawarma. Try to unsee.

~~~
partisan
Saw the pine cone, but I don’t see the shawarma.

------
0db532a0
TLDR:

The author has still to come to terms with the meaninglessness, contrivance
and absurdity of her own life and of everything around her, and has been
pushed by a meaningless, contrived and absurd building to write a similarly
meaningless and contrived article. Oblivious to this, she is pushes herself
even further into the void of meaninglessness, contrivance and absurdity. The
capitalist pigs score yet another goal against Kate, her thoughts enslaved
within the confines of The Vessel.

~~~
pesmhey
Exactly.

------
Siederwehen
The article is hilariously wasteful with words as that thing is of land.

Calling it a giant waste paper basket is wonderfully apt.

