
Returning Due Process to Campus - jseliger
https://www.city-journal.org/john-doe-v-purdue-univ
======
leepowers
It's a moral panic, at least in part. Panic explains why due process is
ignored and why accusations are considered unassailable. But questioning
accusations is not the same as denying them. And while reliving trauma is a
risk it can be mitigated by using an intermediary like a lawyer or therapist.

Another piece is the increasing insular nature of some institutions. Ideas
ricochet within the walled gardens of higher ed, gain momentum, and lead to
results that appear zany to the outside world. Focus is needed to study; but
insular practices are creating campuses that are worlds unto themselves.

That's not to say we shouldn't agitate against bad practices in society. Real
progress is being made in the real world to combat sexual assault and sex
crimes.[1] But it's hard to see how campus protestors are having any positive
impact outside their hallowed halls.

[1]
[https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2019/07/nati...](https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2019/07/nationwide-
epidemic-of-untested-rape-kits-atlantic-daily/594046/)

~~~
cheez
Glad to see that this type of thing is getting reversed. If you believe all
accusations without the most basic of investigations, you are on the edge of a
very slippery slope.

It's generally very simple to find out if someone is lying: just question them
5-6 different times about what happened. No one who is lying or exaggerating
keeps their story straight.

I had a friend who was the victim of a false allegation but he fought very
hard and people lost their jobs over it because they didn't follow basic
investigative procedures. In the end, he was out time, money and peace of mind
because someone was vindictive - he wanted to break up with her. It of course
helped that he was rich enough to fund a multi-pronged attack.

The woman received no repercussions.

~~~
EliRivers
_It 's generally very simple to find out if someone is lying: just question
them 5-6 different times about what happened. No one who is lying or
exaggerating keeps their story straight._

I understand that the same can be true of people who are not lying or
exaggerating. Every time we remember something, the memories change. I'd be
surprised if someone managed the exact same story when questioned 5-6
different times.

~~~
cheez
That's why you don't talk to the cops, guilty or innocent

------
jMyles
I know a lot of people here already know this story, but it's worth
mentioning: while in college, I was railroaded through the judicial system in
political retaliation after winning the Presidency of the Student Body. This
was 13 years ago now. Crazy story.

Here's a documentary that a bunch of us put together about it:

[https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL11F04BB4661C2CC3](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL11F04BB4661C2CC3)

Some aspects the Purdue case resonate with mine. Others not so much.

I did learn a lot about how little oversight there is over these processes and
how much corrupt officials count on the qualified immunity doctrine.

~~~
twic
Is this written up anywhere? I'm not about to watch an 85-minute (!)
documentary.

------
hermitdev
I was nearly involved in a sexual assault case in college.

7 of us were in my dorm room, watching a movie on my computer. 3 girls, 4
guys, including myself. My roommate and I had our beds bunked, him on the
bottom, me up top. The accuser was laying next to my roommate on his bunk, I
was laying on mine, everyone else was in chairs.

The accuser, like halfway through the movie abruptly gets up and leaves
without saying a word. Not a "no", "stop" or anything. Just silence and left.
The 6 of us remain were like wtf? Then finished the movie and watched another.

The next week, one of the other girls told us guys something to the effect of:
"you won't believe the shit I'm hearing. (Accuser) is saying she was sexually
assaulted by you guys the night we were watching movies. And I know that didnt
happen, I was right there."

We knew we didn't do anything, but we're scared shitless. One of the guys was
an international student and was worried about being deported if expelled
while on his student visa.

We nipped it in the bud by the lot of us going immediately to the Dean of
Students to address it. He hadn't even heard the accusation yet. He believed
us that the accusation was bullshit (the accusation was that somone unhooked
her bra without her consent). 6 people vs 1 helped a lot. This was in 2000 and
Universities assuming guilt was already prevalent then. We were pretty
terrified.

I dont know what the accuser's thoughts were. Maybe she was seeking attention.
I just dont know and nearly 20 years later, don't care. But she traumatized 6
people with a false allegation spread by rumors.

All of that said, it's important to investigate ALL allegations of
assault/abuse, but it's simultaneously important to not rush to judgement and
assume guilt. Due process is prescribed in the US Constitution for a reason.
(Admittedly this might not hold for all private schools, but it should still
be a guiding principle.)

~~~
crimsonalucard
There's always motive when someone does something. People don't do things for
no reason or just because they are crazy. The question is why did she do the
thing that she did. When I look at all realistic scenarios someone may have
unhooked the bra.

But I'm also thinking it's not big enough a deal to report it either. I mean
come on, my ex punched me (hard) on the shoulder before, that's enough to put
her in jail.

------
sverige
Maybe someday we can find the middle ground between railroading undergrads
with no evidence and taking decades to stop predators like Jeffrey Epstein and
Bill Cosby and probably countless others.

~~~
ultrarunner
I wonder what the qualitative differences between Epstein/Cosby and college
undergrads could be.

~~~
pmiller2
Do you really? You don’t know what the difference between rich and powerful
men and a bunch of mostly no-name nobody young adults?

~~~
0-_-0
I wonder what the qualitative differences between sarcasm and a genuine
question could be.

------
bootlooped
It has always struck me as a very weird practice for colleges to be
adjudicating criminal matters like rape.

~~~
jnwatson
Part of the problem is the abdication of most police forces and DAs to
prosecute rape, date rape in particular.

The university system fills the gap, sometimes poorly.

~~~
cascom
I’m not sure it’s an abdication - but rather the result of the “beyond a
reasonable doubt” standard being hard to overcome in a “he said she said”
situation.

~~~
exolymph
I'm sure that's part of it, but police departments have an atrocious record
when it comes to investigating sexual assault:
[https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2019/07/nati...](https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2019/07/nationwide-
epidemic-of-untested-rape-kits-atlantic-daily/594046/)

------
pyuser583
Here’s the thing - universities can’t compel people to testify. And there are
no consequences for retaliating against witnesses.

Until universities can compel testimony and subpoena evidence from everyone,
including non-students/employees, they can’t have fair proceedings.

Until they have that power, they should be severely restricted in what
negative negative findings they can make.

An accuser/accused who had to beg people to testify in their support isn’t
likely to get justice.

~~~
pmiller2
Here’s the thing, too: sexual assault is a crime. Universities shouldn’t even
be investigating crimes at all. That should fall to law enforcement. And, if a
conviction is obtained by the appropriate authorities (who do have the power
to compel testimony and such), then the university should impose appropriate
punishments, up to, and including expulsion or revocation of degrees.

------
cannonedhamster
Not sure why the article had to bend into politics. There was more than enough
evidence to support their position without going into a Democrats versus
Trump/DeVoss angle to make a claim that this was somehow Democrats doing. I
think it's fair to say that _any_ time you're having an adversarial process
it's going to be difficult on both parties, there's clear cases of abuse that
are missed, cases of poor/missed communications between people, cases of
anger, cases where both parties were in a bad state to make adult decisions.
College campuses in particular are, in America, the first time that real
responsibilities of the world are levied at many young adults.

When it comes down to it, in cases of date rape, awkward sexual encounters,
spousal/lover abuse, and all the messy areas of humanity in between, there's
no way to get every bad actor, sometimes there's not enough evidence, and
that's a terrible place to have to be. Sometimes the courts and tribunals are
going to get it wrong, and that's another terrible place to be. That doesn't
mean that we don't do everything within our power to make places of learning,
both inside and outside the classroom, as safe as possible. That doesn't mean
we ignore our responsibility to each other to attempt to make right cases of
provable injustice. That also means that we don't destroy lives without
evidence. Difficult decisions are the cornerstone of adult lives.

------
throwaway3627
There's two double-standards at play:

\- victimhood hierarchy - prioritizing obscure identity attributes over the
person.

\- elite apartheid - celebrities, rich, popular, beautiful don't have to play
by the same rules or receive the same punishments as everyone else. Also, the
very bottom of society receives far more punishment than the middle.

Furthermore, there are several ambiguous, likely unknowable by anyone else,
situations in the case of rape, because it's often a s/he-said situation due
often to a lack of unbiased witnesses or solid evidence:

\- Whether there was force or not

\- Whether there was explicit, implicit or no consent

\- If there was consent, was it later revoked or not, explicitly or weakly

\- Is the allegation for actual harm or
ego-/guilt-/remorse/-alleviation/revenge/enjoyment/attention

Actual rape isn't good, but an unfair/unnecessarily unpleasant process to
suss-out what may/may not be possible to discover doesn't help either. It's
very tricky.

------
dillonmckay
At least public universities have some accountability to the law.

~~~
barry-cotter
Any university that takes federal funds is amply exposed to the law of an
administration wishes to so expose it.

~~~
dillonmckay
However, a state university is also bound by the laws of the state, and are
responsible to the voters at some basic level.

------
voodootrucker
According to the policy, I'm going to interpret this in the most generous
light, but:

1\. At 15:12 MT, this had 11 votes and was on the front page 2\. Almost
immediately after, this was flagged 3\. The comments that say "56 minutes ago"
where already there 4\. It is now 16:54 MT (1:52 ago)

I think there is a bug in HN timestamps, and also (subjectively) the
moderation.

~~~
dang
We turned off the flags on the post and rolled back the clock on it by about
an hour, since that's about how long it was flagged.

