
Smashing Eggs, Dumping Milk: Farmers Waste More Food Than Ever - danso
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-18/smashing-eggs-dumping-milk-farmers-waste-more-food-than-ever
======
LB232323
When people talk about food costs in America, an extremely crucial element is
often overlooked.

For all the moral posturing about animal treatment in factory farms and
sustainability, which I can sympathize with, there is a massive army of
illegal migrant workers that are invisible both legally and socially.

These migrant workers grow and harvest the food that Americans survive on
every day. Not to mention cleaning homes, landscaping, and even raising
families.

This is a major factor in why food is so cheap and abundant in America.
Illegal migrant workers who are paid sub-minimum slave wages to feed the
citizens of the United States.

Until we take a hard look at this labor system and widely acknowledge its
economic role, these debates are empty. If you know your history, you
understand why this system exists.

~~~
simmanian
Is there a source that describes just how dependent we are on slave labor for
food? I think some numbers would do a lot of good here.

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fasteddie31003
I imagine some of this comes from the waste of the restaurant system. So far
in the lockdown, I've made every meal I've eaten and I have only wasted a
couple of sweet potatoes and some onions that went bad. And seeing those
ingredients go to waste really upset me. From my past experiences working at
restaurants tons of food goes into the garbage every week.

~~~
cdubzzz
As an aside -- don't let "bad" vegetables go completely to waste. Compost them
and grow new ones (if you have the space)!

~~~
0xffff2
Sure, let me just set up a composting and hydroponics operation in my 400 sq.
ft. apartment...

~~~
korethr
I'm not sure the snark is warranted. If you're truly living in 400 sq ft
apartment, you're probably already used to thinking of your space utilization
in a manner akin to 3-dimensional tetris. If that's the case, I'm sure you can
find space for a small vermicomposting bin and one of those vertical planters.
Even better if you have a small balcony or patio that gets some sunlight. When
I was living in an apartment, more than one unit in my building would set up a
small garden on the patio using various planters to host tomatoes, peppers,
herbs, etc. No, that won't replace your need to go to the grocery store for
fruits and veggies, but it will compliment it.

~~~
0xffff2
My lease specifically forbids putting any plants outdoors (I don't have a
patio to put them on, so they would be taking up space in shared walkways).
And yes, space is limited, which is exactly why unless I want to start
throwing away furniture I can't in fact find the space inside.

There was no "snark" intended. My response is just as serious and practical as
"Compose [sic] them and grow new ones!".

~~~
korethr
Fair enough. It came across as snark to me on my first read. And if you're
under tight restrictions on what you can or can't do in your apartment (been
there, done that, don't envy you), and have already reached a high level of
3-d tetris in your current layout, then yes, composting food scraps and using
the compost to grow herbs or vegetables is going to be impractical.

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nostromo
We need to end the lock downs. It's time we did what we should have done after
two weeks of quarantine: open back up, encourage social distancing,
sanitation, masks, temperature checks, and encourage the very old and ill to
self-isolate (with financial help if needed).

~~~
christophilus
Shh. You're not allowed to think that.

In all seriousness, I've been really disappointed with people who I respect
who have consistently belittled anyone who questions the prudence of the
lockdown. "Covidiot" is thrown around indiscriminately.

The other thing that has surprised me is how many people use absolute numbers
rather than per-capita numbers in order to prove their points. I even found
Neil deGrasse Tyson doing this on Twitter.

~~~
asveikau
Well, a lot of people feel, I think accurately, that the lockdowns are what
are or were keeping the case load relatively low.

Regarding absolute numbers, in the early phase when we had a 2-3 day doubling
rate, per capita numbers didn't matter very much because you only needed ~2
days for it to double, so any difference in per capita cases saw that gap
closed pretty quickly. So for instance, I saw people downplaying the danger by
saying "sure Italy has it bad, but the US has 5x the population". That missed
the point a bit. It didn't take _that long_ for the US to become the leader in
absolute number of cases, then a bit more for it to exceed per capita rates of
Italy. Probably both would have happened sooner had there not been any
intervention.

~~~
mandelbrotwurst
Sure, but certainly it's a complex enough scenario with enough variables that
we should be able to at least have a conversation around what to do without
resorting to name calling, yes?

~~~
Spellman
Sure, and many are. Economists, Epidemiologist, and many in the science and
political communities _are_ having these conversations.

It's just that opening the economy has also become politicized and the
armchair social media "experts" have begun chanting "OPEN UP!" without any
sort of nuance repeatedly multiple times a day and overwhelming the
conversations and suggestions of the reasonable folks with data. So, by
default, the initial reaction is assume someone making that suggestion is
they're more likely to be an emotional appeal than a rational discussion
partner.

~~~
joshuahughes
> without any sort of nuance

I think this accusation is equally applicable for politicians though. There
has been precious little nuance in blanket lockdowns that don’t acknowledge
how vastly different in risk different activities are (e.g. sunbathing in a
park vs clubbing). Seems to me like the shouts of “OPEN UP!” are simply a
response to the knee-jerk “SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING!” that everyone has had to
live with for the last few months.

~~~
arrosenberg
Except it's not "SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING". It's shut down all non-essential mass
gatherings until we can get a handle on the situation. All of the governors
who implemented strict shelter-in-place orders have also released detailed
plans for re-opening safely.

~~~
joshuahughes
Where I am (Scotland) it WAS pretty much everything. Only shops selling food,
medicine, or maintenance products are allowed to open. All others have been
shut for ~2 months now. Driving is strictly forbidden unless you’re travelling
to one of these stores that have been ‘deemed essential’. We’re not allowed to
meet anyone outside of our household, even in a socially-distanced outside
context. I have friends unlucky enough to be living alone and single, and the
lockdown is destroying them, to the point that they’re secretly meeting other
single friends to stay sane. All of this is in spite of the fact that there
are thousands of jobs and activities that can be EASILY done whilst also
socially distancing. Of course, it requires vastly more thought and effort to
come up with rational guidelines that take into consideration all of this
nuance, and governments (mostly because of shortsightedness) haven’t had the
time to create more humane lockdown solutions, hence the indiscriminate
restrictions that have been brought in by countries the world over.

------
lcam84
We need to understand that this large scale economy is very fragile. We need
to reinvest in antifragile local communities. And no, I'm not talking about of
going back to dark ages just to reduce the scale, maybe to the levels of 30
years ago.

~~~
throwaway0a5e
That optimization that makes everything fragile is why people can afford the
quality of life that they do. You can't have a serious discussion about buying
local at a macroeconomic level without an accompanying serious discussion
about cost.

~~~
tw04
I hear about the cost rising but I guess it still doesn't compute for me. My
mom paid for college by having a side-job working at the phone company back in
the 70s. There's no planet on which a student would make the money required to
pay for college in-full with a part-time job.

Outside of the bubble that is HN tech workers - wages have stagnated. The
wealth being generated is severely concentrated at the very top. I think your
average person walking down the street would gladly exchange their $2 gallon
of milk for a $4 gallon of milk if they had a $40k/year salary vs. their
current $7/hr.

~~~
toss1
Part of this is that before the 1970s, the US minimum wage was set so that a
full-time job would keep you above the poverty line. People could raise a
family, pay a mortgage, etc. on a minimum wage job.

That relationship was broken, but not the assumption that if you are poor, you
are lazy.

What this is really doing is providing welfare to all the companies paying
below-poverty wages - the taxpayers pay for benefits to allow the workers in
those positions to live, while simultaneously increasing corporate profits.

The portion of GDP going to wages has almost never been lower than it is now
[1]

It is about corporate regulatory capture redesigning the economy for corporate
wealth extraction and not for the benefit of the citizens.

[1]
[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/W270RE1A156NBEA](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/W270RE1A156NBEA)

~~~
smegger001
I will never understand why we don't just set a minimum wage then index it to
rate of inflation then automatically update it annually.

~~~
Izkata
Didn't one of the dropped-out democratic candidates propose something like
that?

I swear I've heard this before.

------
rednerrus
We can't possibly have enough overhead in our system to accommodate this,
right? Eventually this is going to lead to shortages in grocery stores, right?
This has to be our number one priority.

~~~
topkai22
From my understanding, the shortages have already happened or are already
happening. I was able to buy flour at my grocery store for first time in 2
months yesterady, I haven't seen a sale on meat since March, up till May we
still had buying limits on milk and eggs.

From my understanding, the bottlenecks are in the processing plants due to
massive shift in demand preferences. Restuarants take their orders differently
than consumers, often buying whole sections of an animal or at different style
cuts, or in the case of flour buying it in 25-50 lbs bags. Consumers widely
prefer more processing of their meats (meaning boneless skinlesss chicken
breast rather than a whole chicken) or smaller purchases sizes.

Honestly, I don't think this will get worse in the US in the short of mid
term. The biggest issue is that the food prices being offered farmers/ranchers
right now are terrible, so if we see a demand spike post recovery (due to
restaurants reopening) we may not have the supply.

~~~
microcolonel
> _I was able to buy flour at my grocery store for first time in 2 months
> yesterady_

The experience for consumer-packaged flour differs a lot by region, but it
seems it was mostly about the capacity of consumer flour packaging facilities
than the capacity of flour mills or wheat farmers. Similar thing with toilet
paper: people were pooping at home more, so they needed consumer-packaged
toilet paper, thus there was a temporary shortage of consumer-packaged toilet
paper while facilities adapted to demand.

RE flour: here in Hamilton, Ontario, flour in consumer packaging was a rare
find for about a week, until retail prices rose slightly (10%?) and now things
are basically back to normal in terms of availability.

~~~
topkai22
It is still tough to find toilet paper at retail here (Reno, Nevada), but
manageable. The lack of commercially packaged TP being sold at retail or
alternative market mechanisms remains one of the greate mysteries of the
crisis for me. I know plenty of people who would have bought the big rolls
just have something.

There was a real demand issue on TP as well- lots of people who used to only
buy 1-6 roles at a time started panic buying 4x the amount.

~~~
microcolonel
Part of problem with retooling for consumer TP is that a lot of commercial TP
is lower grade than consumers are used to at home; often barely meeting the
definition of “two ply”, not soft or doped with humectants.

It is not simple to retool a commercial bulk TP supplier into a consumer TP
supplier, they at least need some different inputs.

~~~
topkai22
All true, but I was surprised I never saw a guy selling bulk rolls of TP in
the parking lot (or I guess never heard how to buy it on the internet via
eBay). I'm sure it existed somewhere, but it wasn't prominent enough to supply
my brother and his roommates when they ran out.

------
gpsx
I expect people leave a lot of food uneaten at restaurants. The times I
completely clear my plate, which should be the norm, I often get the same
comment from the waiter, "Wow, you really liked that."

~~~
viklove
The problem isn't uneaten food on your plate. Just think about it, if you
finish the food on your plate, how is that going to help someone that is going
hungry and can't afford or access groceries?

~~~
gpsx
True, this was just an observation that, as the article said, there probably
is more waste when you eat at a restaurant as compared to eating at home. They
have a one-size-fits all problem in portion serving.

------
save_ferris
Fresh Air recently interviewed a chef, Tom Colicchio (sp?) and he had what
seemed like a novel solution to this problem.

Since suppliers to commercial kitchens aren’t able to easily switch production
to support consumer-facing customers, he argued that the Federal Government
should subsidize restaurants based on a percentage of typical revenue (say
80%), and then use the kitchen staff to make prepared meals that can be sold
via takeout, or CSA-style boxes that customers can take home and cook
themselves. This way, restaurants get to employ staff while using their
commercial kitchens to process food that consumers/food pantries could
actually use.

This would help stabilize the restaurant industry while we wait for a vaccine
and keep at least some staff employed while performing an essential task
(converting food for consumers)

~~~
jcims
How is this different than just allowing restaurants to sell curbside?

~~~
save_ferris
Not all restaurants have menus that are able to easily translate to takeout,
and restaurants don’t currently coordinate with producers on what food is
backing up in the supply chain.

For example, say that the chicken supply has outgrown its demand. A
coordinated food production effort between suppliers and restaurants could
ensure that supply of chicken is sent to a restaurant to be processed and sold
directly as a raw ingredient, which isn’t something you typically see in a
takeout situation. Or the processed chicken could go to a community kitchen or
something. Either way, the food is successfully processed and sold/donated
instead of being wasted.

~~~
irrational
What is an example of a restaurant that can't do takeout? Even ice cream
places around here are doing takeout, and I would have thought that something
like ice cream would be the last thing that I would see available by takeout.

~~~
azinman2
Fine dining doesn’t translate in the same way, yet their fixed costs don’t
change. They also likely aren’t selling liquor which often is the big money
maker that subsidizes everything else.

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kwhitefoot
Why is this happening? Farmers dumping food at the same time that supermarkets
are unable to supply basics like flour and chicken.

Does anyone know why this is happening in the US and whether it is also
happening in other countries? It certainly isn't happening here in Norway. We
had short term shortages of flour and yeast but that is over and now there
seems to be no shortage of anything else.

~~~
eqdw
The intermediates between the farms and the grocery stores were closed by law,
for the most part

~~~
vonmoltke
Eh, what intermediaries between farms and grocery stores are "closed by law"?

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LockAndLol
40% of food in American homes lands in the trash? They only have themselves to
blame.

The demand was artificially inflated and now that it's dropping due to lower
waste at home, because people are afraid stores won't have what they need,
what was made expecting inflated usage, can't be delivered and used.

We brought this upon ourselves. Even worse, we won't learn from it. Once
things are back to normal, the rest of the world will copy / continue copying
the american gluttony making us susceptible to another situation like this.

~~~
viklove
Not just America, Europe as well!

------
ars
Would it be so terrible to just sell food in commercial packaging to
consumers?

I wish stores like Target and Walmart would stock pallets of 40lb flour sacks
and just sell them like any other product.

Even things like 50lb sacks on onions could be sold, and let people figure out
how to split it up with neighbors, etc. People are smart, they'll figure out
what to do.

------
beervirus
Simpsons did it.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qibFvDOrOjI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qibFvDOrOjI)

