
Toronto is poised to become a producer of tech startups - jonathanehrlich
http://techcrunch.com/2016/06/12/toronto-is-poised-to-become-the-next-great-producer-of-tech-startups/
======
lcc
Not if Toronto keeps hemorrhaging talent. I graduated from the University of
Toronto last year and can only name 2 of my classmates who are actually
working in Toronto now. The rest are in SF, Seattle, and NYC - including many
people who have family in Toronto, like me. All of my friends who were
seriously working on a startup have moved it to the Bay Area.

Many of us would love to move back to Toronto 'eventually', for family reasons
and because it's a great city overall, but for now the money and opportunities
in the States are too good. In SF I'm making 2-3x what I'd make in Toronto and
get to work on a globally-relevant system. And 80% of my social network is
here now, too.

~~~
arez
do you get a green card easier as a canadian than people from europe for
example? I'm from germany and know many people who would like to work in the
states, but it's really a big problem to get the green card. It takes
companies much effort and money to get you in the states for more than 3
months.

~~~
mahyarm
You have to immigrate like all the other immigrants, but since you are German,
the permanent resident quota is barely used for your nationality. The USA
creates a quota system for green cards and then splits them up on a
nationality basis. India, China and the Philippines have a long lineup for
visas.

The USA creates a quota/lineup system on a per country basis.

You have 3 basic options:

1\. Work at a European office for a year, transfer on an L visa, apply for a
green card once your in the USA.

2\. Apply for an H1-B around march/april, see if you made the lottery, get
your visa in october, apply for a green card once your in the usa.

3\. Work at a European office for X years, apply for a green card outside of
the USA, starting immediately while your working there, wait until you get a
green card, move to the USA. It took about a 1 year to 1.5 years for a former
coworker to do it this way.

O-1 & E visas are too special case to think about for the most part. And there
is always getting married to a US citizen.

~~~
lewisl9029
#3 is an interesting option that I hadn't heard of until now. Would this
option be available to remote workers? Or is it reserved only for those
working with companies that have a physical office in their country as well as
the US?

~~~
mahyarm
Actually you don't have to be working for the company at all for #3. I think
he wasn't working for the company until his green card came through.

Basically it's like applying for a green card normally, except your out of the
country and you get the visa with "consular processing". I'm not sure if you
can work remotely for the company or not while the green card process is
happening.

I think most employers don't want to do it although because your not working
for them while it's processing. With a dual intent visa you can work for the
company while the green card is processing and your in the US office.

This outlines it: [http://www.path2usa.com/employment-based-green-
card](http://www.path2usa.com/employment-based-green-card)

*Note: I know technically employers apply for you, not you yourself independently. It's just easier to write it that way.

------
stuxnet79
Eeh ... as a Torontonian developer I don't buy it. Most of the good graduates
we have move to Bay Area or Seattle. If you want your career to progress
meaningfully you pretty much have to move to the states.

Maybe this might change in the future but the story on the ground is very
different.

Also nitpick - we are the fourth most populous city in North America, and only
_Mexico City_ , New York and Los Angeles have a larger population. As of mid
last year, Toronto contains more people than _Chicago_.

~~~
amscanne
> Also nitpick - we are the fourth most populous city in North America, and
> only Mexico City, New York and Los Angeles have a larger population. As of
> mid last year, Toronto contains more people than Chicago.

Ugh, this is a pet peeve of mine. The city limits are drawn in such a way that
Toronto _technically_ edges out Chicago. Torontonians seem to feel this is a
meaningful point of pride.

Get real. The metro Toronto area is 7 million people. The metro Chicago area
is nearly 10 million.

~~~
rapind
Huh? Get real? The 10 million "Greater Chicago Area" you're referring to is
10,857 miles. The 6 million Toronto area you're referring to is only 2,751
miles. That's almost 4 times the size but only 1.6 times the population.

I think the sizes are in reality pretty close and figuring out which is bigger
seems very nuanced depending on where you draw the lines. That being said I'll
go along with you and say Chicago is probably bigger for the most part _right
now_. Chicago definitely feels like a bigger city when you're downtown
anyways.

The numbers you're using for comparison though? C'mon, who's being prideful?

[http://www.canadianbusiness.com/blogs-and-comment/so-is-
toro...](http://www.canadianbusiness.com/blogs-and-comment/so-is-toronto-
really-bigger-than-chicago-its-complicated/)

~~~
amscanne
You can include the entire "extended" golden horseshoe area (all the way to
K/W and Peterborough) and you've still got only 8.7 million people in 12,185
square miles [1]. By the way, I was already using the golden horseshoe area
already (Hamilton, etc.) since I used _seven_ million, not _six_.

There are simply more people in the Chicago area. By a decent margin. There's
nothing wrong with that. I think this is a thing for Torontonians because of
the perpetual inferiority complex we Canadians [2] have with respect to the
U.S. :)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe)

[2] I am from Toronto, so it's weird to accuse me of being prideful? I'm
guessing you think I'm somehow "defending" Chicago? My point is that having
more city in your city is nothing to be proud (or ashamed) about.

------
psycr
So this article is about people like me. I went to school in Toronto and
stayed. In the > 5 years since:

\- I joined a seed stage startup

\- That startup raised a series A ($N millions in total financing)

\- Was then acquired by a Fortune 500 company, which has kept the business as
a separate unit for > 1 year

\- I was a party to the deal :)

I have found salaries to be competitive when total cost of living adjustments
are made (even despite the currency value). Importantly, the labour market
here values skills over credentials - so there's a distinct pragmatism in the
air.

So as far as _startups_ go - not the publicly traded and pre-series-G-mega-SF-
corps - I think there's a vibrant opportunity and reality.

------
clutchski
"Toronto is already home to a number of successful venture-backed businesses,
such as Shopify, KIK, ..."

Fact check time. Shopify's headquarters is in Ottawa. Kik is in Waterloo.

~~~
kenrose
Don't know about KIK, but Shopify has a large development office in Toronto
near King and Spadina.

~~~
anatoli
They also just invested in a huge space (King Portland Centre) that won't be
built until 2019.

~~~
astrodust
Huge is putting it mildly. This is a pretty major campus.

------
mabbo
Odd they didn't mention Amazon Toronto or IBM. Amazon has 300+ SDEs here
(myself included), room for 800 developers in the new office that just opened.
Not sure how big IBM is, but I've heard it's fairly big operation here.

It's not that Amazon is a startup itself (what, 100k+ employees worldwide
doesn't count?) but that when you have a big company like that you often see
people leave to make startups. Young guys spend a couple years being mentored
and becoming great developers, then leave to go pursue their passions.

I have two former managers that are both very senior people in local Toronto
startups, plus a number of friends who've left to hit up the start-up scene
both as founders and early hires.

~~~
gabbo
How is the pay at Amazon Toronto and what are the projects like?

I work in tech (not Amazon) and live in Seattle, and given the reputation I
don't think I'd really want to work for them in this city given the other
options we have here.

But if they paid top-notch salary and had great work, I'd seriously consider
it as an option when moving back to Toronto. The employment options seem quite
limited and I have a hard time justifying a move home if I end up working on
less interesting technology and make less than half of what I do here. I'm
afraid of my only options moving home being a massive pay cut, boring work, a
terrible commute, and being priced out of real estate anywhere appealing in
the city. :(

RE: IBM, if I recall most/all of their engineering is in Markham, they don't
treat their employees particularly well, and the pay is so-so (though maybe
market rates given Toronto).

~~~
mabbo
Re: pay- It's less than in Seattle, it's "competitive" for Toronto (ie: few
companies pay this much, but then few companies need to here). Never heard of
anyone leaving for better money unless they were headed for Seattle or the
Bay.

Re: projects- there's lots going on in Toronto. Depends what you're interested
in.

Toronto: housing is overpriced. Just a fact of the city. No one under 30 is
ever going to own a house in the city, but there's lots of decent condos going
up. Find a place on the subway or Go lines and your commute is pretty
painless. And the Amazon office is 200m from Union station, don't need to go
outside. That was nice in the winter.

------
aj0strow
I moved to Toronto from Seattle.

If you value street fashion, nightlife, music, no driving, etc then the bay
area isn't very appealing. I wouldn't move back west until I'm married with
kids.

I'm 22, rent a huge apt with two friends for ~$900/m each, live on the main
subway line (15 min to work). I couldn't spend more than $4k/m if I tried
(bought a roomba, tom ford shades, eat steak and berries).

Some toronto companies I admire:

\- [https://www.wealthsimple.com/](https://www.wealthsimple.com/) \-
[http://www.uken.com/](http://www.uken.com/) \-
[https://shoeboxapp.com/](https://shoeboxapp.com/) \-
[https://www.opencare.com/](https://www.opencare.com/) \-
[https://tophat.com/](https://tophat.com/) \-
[https://www.pagerduty.com/](https://www.pagerduty.com/) \-
[http://www.eventmobi.com/](http://www.eventmobi.com/)

------
6gawd
I worked in the SF Bay Area for ~4 years. After wanting to re-visit life in
Canada for personal reasons, I ended up in Toronto last year. With no
expectations, but some sense of understanding that Toronto is Canada's best
tech hub, I made a move and worked at an early stage tech consultancy. A lot
of smart and talented people from local schools (e.g. Waterloo/UofT). But like
most have mentioned, you still see a huge migration of that talent going to
US-based tech hubs as the opportunities are more favourable (career-wise and
financially).

After a year (and luckily meeting my significant other) we've decided to
explore opportunities in the Bay Area again, and will be moving back this
summer.

There really isn't anything quite like the SF scene at the moment for tech
startups.

This article is great in championing what the city can aspire to, but there is
a lot of room left to become a contender.

Can't wait to see what Toronto's tech scene will evolve to in the next 5-10
years. Hopefully in time for when I want to settle down again in Canada.

------
robertelder
Waterloo has been investing heavily in improving their public transit
infrastructure in recent years:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_rapid_transit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_rapid_transit)

[http://rapidtransit.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/projectinformatio...](http://rapidtransit.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/projectinformation/transithub.asp)

Once it is completed, I think this will make Waterloo and Toronto feel a lot
closer together. Note that the 'transit hub' mentioned above is a 2 minute
walk from communitech
([https://www.communitech.ca/](https://www.communitech.ca/)), Google, Shopify,
D2L etc.

~~~
jessriedel
Those are local projects (Waterloo/Kitchener/Cambridge), right? Are they
actually planning on improving the very slow and intermittent rail connection
to Toronto?

~~~
robertelder
Yes, these are local projects, but with the amount of chaos they're creating
with construction, I'm willing to believe that once it's finished they'll make
much more frequent trips to Toronto. I believe there would be demand for it as
the King/Victoria area is changing rapidly. Google just took over a building
that was an old derelict factory with broken windows 2 years ago. This
building is within feet of the proposed transit station. Lots of new apartment
buildings going up in the area. The communitech hub has also been getting much
more busy in the last few years.

~~~
jessriedel
OK, so they might have a few more frequent trips, but the train itself still
takes an hour and a half. And even if you assume this horrendous construction
makes traveling within the KW region magically fast, you're still talking a 1
hour 45 minutes commute, each way.

I think Toronto will still be pretty far away.

------
matt_wulfeck
Ultimately if Toronto wants to be the best they will pay the best (adjusted
for cost of living). They're best bet is that the bay cost of living becomes
so unbearable that they can be competitive in take-home dollars.

As it is, the money for developers is in the bay by a _huge_ margin.

~~~
alexc05
Yeah, the pay here in Toronto is much lower, even when you account for cost of
living vs. San Fran.

One consideration that offsets that is medical insurance. If your health care
is not fully covered by your employer.

I ran some numbers once and the "rent difference" was roughly $3k (typical 1 -
2 bedroom apartment at $4k vs. The roughly $1k I spend) and the platinum
medical looking like roughly $500/mo

Add in a car, ($0 in Toronto, $1000 in The bay w/ parking, insurance, gas &
the vehicle)

All said and done, $55k appears to make the cost of living difference "break-
even"

If I'm on roughly $100k in Toronto, $155k would be even. Now that doesn't
adjust for exchange rate, so you might get ~20% play there. Maybe the $135k
median I've read about is roughly on target in terms of total food cost,
etc...)

I think there'd be some cachet to having a "big five" employer on your resume,
so a year or two in one of the mega-shops would add value to future earnings
if you started looking elsewhere, or a handful of other unicorn-class names
might have a similar impact.

All in all, I'm not convinced that taking a San Fran gig would necessarily
feel like streets paved with gold and scooping up baskets of money (which
grows on trees), so much as it'd be a nice, sunny, ultra-nerdy town in the
heart of movin' & shakin'

Incidentally, if anyone would like to disabuse me of any errors in my napkin
math, I would welcome it. I'd love to get a more realistic idea of the
difference.

~~~
shurcooL
> Add in a car, ($0 in Toronto, $1000 in The bay w/ parking, insurance, gas &
> the vehicle)

My observation is that's great to not have a car in SF, I prefer not to. But
it's impossible not to have a car in Toronto.

Why is it $0 in Toronto?

~~~
alexc05
Great to hear you can go without a car in SF I'm a 20 minute walk to work in
Toronto with a large grocery store across the street from home. Basically
everything can be done on foot. Add in a bike and a nice transit system and
no-car is pretty easy here.

Are you in SF? Does $4k for a 1 bed+den seem to be in the ballpark?

~~~
mrgordon
Rents can vary widely but I think $3000 is probably a more reasonable
estimate. The transit estimates also seem too high - I spend almost nothing
because I can walk to work and take a Lyft Line for $5 or a bus for $2.25 if I
need to. Many people bike. Overall it would be fairly easy to only spend a few
hundred a month on transit for many people if your apartment isn't too
isolated.

~~~
acchow
You cannot get a 1BR+den for $3000 in SF. It'll be just over $4k since it'll
be similar square footage to a 2BR but discounted for not having the proper
second bedroom.

~~~
mrgordon
I pay less than $3000 actually and see similar listings

------
Apocryphon
I think if any city/region wants to be a future Silicon Valley (given the
rents, why would you?), first focus on being the next Seattle/Austin/Portland.
You can't beat NY in terms of having access to capital, but then NY (and LA)
is its own world with its own dominant industry, so I'm not sure if it's
comparable as to SAP in terms of "the next SV" talk. But you can do what those
three cities have and have access to affordable (if increasing) housing, good
business environments, and the standard of living that would draw in potential
tech folks.

Maybe I should replace Portland with Boulder, in which case it'd be SAB. (Or
with Denver but that's just SAD.)

~~~
lifeisstillgood
Boulder Austin Denver Atlanta Seattle Salt-Lake?

Really stretching my US geography to get anything close to a decent acronym

~~~
Apocryphon
I think Boulder/Denver should be regarded as one market. SLC is definitely hot
for tech, but is it for startups? Atlanta I'm not too sure of.

~~~
lifeisstillgood
I was just aiming for BADASS I am afraid.

Salt lake only came to mind thanks to salt stack. Atlanta - well, as I said,
limited geo knowledge. Ironic really

~~~
Apocryphon
Swap Boston in for Boulder, and you've got your acronym.

------
redtrackker
Waterloo is far better then Toronto in terms of startups and tech talent.
Toronto is riding our coat tails :)

Worth mentioning that Waterloo has the world's largest startup
incubator/accelerator (physical space wise) via Velocity.

~~~
alexc05
and Sudbury has the world's largest nickel...
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Nickel](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Nickel)

It doesn't really follow that they're going to be more successful because of
it. World's largest is a bit irrelevant in this case.

------
jacquesm
If only. The draw of SV on young Canadian talent is just too large. Some of
the smartest people I know hail from that region and most of them ended up
working in SV.

Sad, but it's not happening unless Canada will find a way to balance out the
enormous difference in pay between working in Toronto (or any other major
Canadian city) versus the Valley.

~~~
increment_i
Would have to agree there. The salaries in Toronto are far, far lower than a
comparable on the US West Coast. If you can get a public sector job at a
university though, you might be laughing. Although, public sector jobs will
suck the creativity right out of your veins like a vampire..

------
cmrdporcupine
I almost spat my glass of wine out my nose when I read "Delightfully efficient
transport"

The GTA has some of the worst sprawl and traffic problems in North America,
and its transit system has been neglected since the 80s and the politicians
are only starting to get their heads out of their asses on this in the last
few years.

~~~
overcast
Seriously, the 401 is horrific. I've spent a great deal of time in all of the
major Canadian cities(offices), and the traffic situation is the same. I don't
know what the deal is with Canada, but they REALLY need to clean up their
transit.

~~~
guyzero
The Bay Area has no place to criticize anyplace else for bad transit
infrastructure. Toronto's infrastructure has issues, but it beats most US
cities.

~~~
cmrdporcupine
Not sure I agree. Having spent plenty of time in the Bay Area for work I'd say
that yes it's "transit" infrastructure is garbage on account of it being
suburban sprawl. But Toronto's highway network is worse, and in reality the
bulk of tech employment in Toronto is out in the suburban sprawl of Markham,
etc. where the transit system does you no good.

There are more jobs now downtown than there was 10 years ago for sure, with
companies like Amazon having moving in there. But the transit system itself
has fallen on hard times. Taking the King streetcar is a disaster, the subway
is highly unpleasant at peak hours, and in any case housing is unaffordable in
the downtown core so many transit trips are an hour long. The system has aged.

The Eglinton Crosstown will make a huge difference for sure. Would have helped
me a lot as I lived in one of the last affordable neighbouroods in Toronto
(Oakwood & Vaughan). But my employment has moved to Waterloo, and I'm living
rural now, and the quality of life is much better for me :-)

I hope Toronto can get its infrastructure issues sorted. But I don't think it
compares well to the Bay Area. Or to NYC.

------
uiri
This article is poorly fact-checked:

"Queens College" is, I'm guessing, referring to Queen's University in Kingston
(since the attendance number cited also matches), which is over 150 miles away
from Toronto. I'm surprised the author didn't include the 25,000 students at
McMaster and the 20,000 students at the University of Guelph which are both
much closer than either Waterloo or Queen's. And if the author is going to
include the University of Waterloo, why not also include Wilfrid Laurier
University which is also in Waterloo? It is totally nonsensical. Kitchener-
Waterloo is very distinct from Toronto and its various suburbs.

The support provided by the government does not begin to make up for the lack
of support provided by local angel investors/VCs. It is much easier to go
through the government grant process and get funding for a startup that way
than it is to get Angel or VC money in Toronto.

BlackBerry has been dying a slow death for over 4 years at this point.
Whatever talent they once had has (hopefully, for their sake) long since moved
on. If the author's claims of a diaspora injecting additional talent into the
local startup scene are true, we should already be seeing it. I don't.

Shopify's HQ is in Ottawa. They are sucking up a lot of the local CS talent in
Ottawa since they are a big fish in a small pond. They aren't going to move
their HQ ~200 miles to Toronto any time soon, even if it means avoiding -40
degree winters.

~~~
kogepathic
> even if it means avoiding -40 degree winters.

Oh come on, winter in Ottawa isn't that bad. I can't recall many days that
were below -30 when I was living there.

Although I hear Toronto barely has snow in the winter time, must be heaven not
to have to shovel your driveway.

~~~
halostatue
Oh, come on. I had to shovel my driveway at least twice this past winter.

(I was able to bike to work throughout most of the winter, even if some of the
rides were abbreviated because I can use the GO train as well.)

------
justinlaing
Who is going to move to Toronto to join the tech scene? If given the choice
who is going to choose Toronto over Bay Area or Seattle?

Without it having a massive draw it won't even register compared to Bay Area
or even Seattle.

~~~
jacques_chester
If someone made me choose between the Bay Area and Toronto, I would pick
Toronto. Every day of the week. Toronto's great.

Sure, it's like the planet Hoth for a third of the year. But in every other
way it's a more liveable city. The public transport in the core of the city
exists and works, rather than being a cobbled-together mishmash of
uncoordinated systems of which 2 out of 3 seem to be broken at any time.

The rent is a shit ton cheaper, the people are much nicer, the food is more
varied, the city is _gorgeous_ in summer, it's big enough to have serious
amenities, small enough to be walkable and the people who look like
lumberjacks probably _are_.

I live in NYC, because I prefer it to SF as well. As an Australian citizen I
find it significantly easier to work in the USA than in Canada. But if
Toronto's scene were on a rough scale with NYC's and if the immigration thing
could be sorted, I'd be tempted to move.

~~~
forgetsusername
> _and the people who look like lumberjacks probably are._

As someone who grew up in a forestry town in Northern Ontario...Toronto is a
world away, and much more similar to the Bay Area than where I grew up.

~~~
jacques_chester
Oh, for sure.

But there's Brooklyn hipsters, and SF hipsters, and Toronto hipsters, and then
there are actual forestry workers who come into town.

~~~
MustardTiger
No they don't. Toronto is two plane rides away for them.

------
DeBraid
Toronto and Kitchener-Waterloo are both healthy, vibrant startup hubs, but are
distinct regions IMO. They are 120km apart and it takes ~90min to drive from
Communitech to MARS
[https://goo.gl/maps/vRJqc7JsNcp](https://goo.gl/maps/vRJqc7JsNcp).

Both positively influence each other, compete for resources. Waterloo has some
more affordable suburban housing, and less vibrant city/'downtown'. Toronto is
more expensive, is bigger and better in many respects.

Vancouver and Montreal are also decent startup ecosystems. I've been writing a
researching Canadian cities/startup ecosystems for a book. Lots of stats and
resources here if you're really into this topic:
[https://github.com/DeBraid/ham-innov-essay](https://github.com/DeBraid/ham-
innov-essay)

~~~
emilyfm
There's also Victoria BC. A smaller city, but that makes the tech and startup
scene more important locally: by some measures, tech is now the biggest
"industry" in the area, beating tourism. Plus, it's got the best weather in
Canada.

------
faramarz
My money is on Canada!

Look, our culture, the geo-political environment, the general tolerance level
of an average Canadian, all of these play a factor and when given a choice,
people would easily Canada as their home base.

This is where you want to start a family and grow your kids. The tech scene
has always been miniature compared to SF or NYC, but the high caliber of
talent and expertise is the same if not greater than those cities.

The more reports like this come out, I believe the more of the current
Canadian Diaspora living and working in the US will be swayed to move back
here, bringing their talent, their money and their valley connections with
them.

This country is already winning with it's social policies and adopting
multiculturalism, anything else is really icing on the cake. The tech sector
picking up is icing on the cake. Choosing to live here is a no-brainer for
anyone given the choice.

~~~
jklinger410
Too bad it's so cold.

~~~
faramarz
No colder than Chicago or New York, and on most days, it's no hotter or colder
than the Bay Area. really.

~~~
rrdharan
I strongly disagree. I grew up in Toronto. Moved to New Jersey at 17, San
Francisco at 21 and NYC four years ago at age 32.

Toronto's weather is definitely the worst of the four, no question.

~~~
James001
Those places must have great weather, because Toronto is mostly sun and
climate is moderated by the lake

~~~
antoniuschan99
2 years ago we had the polar vortex where the groundwater froze and when it
cracked sounded like someone kicking tour front door open.

I doubt there was a polar vortex in the bay area.

~~~
James001
That's just a good storm. The normal day-to-day weather is very nice and
usually sunny. Of course we have winter, but it is mild with the occasional
extreme storm. I guess it just depends on how much you like the cold.

------
johan_larson
The main complaint I have heard from Toronto entrepreneurs is the difficulty
of raising capital. You pretty much have to get on a plane to raise a series
A, apparently.

~~~
tomnewton
and you have to do that once... big deal.

------
anthony_barker
Canada has lost engineering talent to the US for 149 years...

In the old days (pre WW2) you just hopped in a car and moved down. Well over a
1 million Canadian born people live in the states including about 70,000
illegals..

That said there are about 200,000 immigrants coming to Canada per year many
who have stem backgrounds. Quebec has an open immigration policy for French
programmers moving to Quebec. And for all those of you comparing salaries -
low salaries are generally good for startups..

WEF ranks canada 4 in the world for human talent
[http://reports.weforum.org/human-capital-
report-2015/report-...](http://reports.weforum.org/human-capital-
report-2015/report-highlights/)

------
sotojuan
Depends on the salaries they offer, doesn't it?

~~~
adaml_623
I don't know how to upvote this subject enough. All these places wanting to
compete with Silicon Valley do not compete on the salary they are willing to
pay software development.

London has this problem. I'm sure anthropologists could study it and say it
has something to do with where software engineers sit in the pack hierarchy in
each community. Whatever it impacts the ability of businesses to execute.

------
dcwca
I agree with the article, it really does feel like something special is
happening in the city. I work at TWG, a software dev agency in Toronto and
we've worked closely with many of these startups and are pretty well connected
to the startup culture. Happy to answer any questions you might have about our
local scene!

------
ZainManji
Toronto is indeed up and coming like every major city, as tech continues to
become more essential and dominant. My company, Fiix (www.fiix.io), is an
example of a company based out of Toronto, that actually just got backed by
YC. Ideally we'd love to stay in Toronto, but the valley continually entices
us and a lot of startups to eventually transition there because of their
abundance of top talent. The main reason we are in Toronto is because our
current market consists of only Torontonians. As we look to expand our
services, staying in Toronto might become very difficult. I think once Toronto
has a huge surplus of tech talent, then it will be very interesting... Maybe a
first mover advantage works in the valley's favor here ;)

------
overcast
Toronto can't even handle getting the current population on time to work.
Their highway congestion is horrendous. I can't imagine it transitioning to a
major tech startup center.

------
FollowSteph3
The article mentions government grants, does anyone know of a small software
shop that has been able to get one? We looked into it at one point and its
next to impossible. Our advisor told us we had to modify the product in weird
ways to maybe get a grant some years later. In other words getting a grant was
nice for the media outlets to report but in reality impossible for a small
startup...

------
tn13
How many times have we heard that City X has poised to become "next tech
capital" ? Austin, San Antonio, London and which not.

Building a specialization is far more complex. It might seem unrelated but I
think the SF's historical openness for all sort of "weird" people have played
a big role in its emergence as Tech capital. It would take years for nay city
to beat it.

------
kinj28
About 6 months back - we and five other startups were invited by federal
government with a pitch that operate in canada & win North American market.
They toured us to almost every happening startup place in the city of Toronto,
Montreal and Waterloo. Only thing that we couldn't do because of our tight
schedule was meet the talent and figure out for ourselves.

------
baybal2
Doing an employee transfer to Canada is like playing a lotterey.

My past employers had documents returned to them 4 times in a row for: 1.
assumed type (s vs z); 2. unclear signature; 3. ESDC called them, but they
missed the call; 4. person's passport was about to expire. The regulations
never mentioned anything about this.

------
467568985476
I'd love to see some comments on what it's like raising money in Toronto. Is
there a local investor ecosystem? Do companies raise a series A led by a
Toronto firm? Do they fly to NYC or SF and hope to find investors who don't
want them to move?

------
rmason
They mention KIK as a Toronto company. Isn't KIK in Waterloo ninety miles
away? That is a pretty elastic definition of greater Toronto isn't it?

~~~
robbbbbbbbb
Yep Kik is in Waterloo, and Waterloo is actually 70 miles away.

I've lived in both cities and I have never heard anyone refer to Waterloo
being in the GTA. They are both very distinct cities, and even on good days it
takes about 90 minutes to drive between them, and it is even worse during rush
hour.

------
nathanvanfleet
California is really unliveable if Toronto is able to keep and capture talent
now. Honestly it has to be really bad living in Silicon Valley at this point.

~~~
Apocryphon
Isn't Toronto very similar to NY, except with worse traffic?

------
gozur88
I can't count the number of times I've seen the "[INSERT CITY NAME HERE] is
poised to become the new Silicon Valley!" headline.

------
fingerprinter
I moved to Victoria, BC from the states. There is zero chance anything in
Canada can compete with SF for quite some time until a few things change.

I actually get asked this question quite a bit being here. I have many long
and drawn out thoughts having lived in SF and now Victoria, but I'll try to
condense them.

First, if any place in Canada will start a tech boom, it isn't Toronto. It's
not Vancouver. It's Victoria. Why? Victoria is close to SF, where the VC money
is. The life and cost of living in Victoria is dramatically better than either
Toronto (high cost, terrible weather) or Vancouver (high cost). And tech is
already one of the bigger industries in Victoria. Victoria has the added bonus
of already having a vibrant start-up scene, albeit mostly local and under 20
people and on the very young side.

Second, even with the above, Victoria (which I consider the most likely, so
that means even less for other cities) is highly unlikely to get any major
traction for a few reasons.

1\. Canada is very conservative with money. Canadian banks, angels and VCs are
all pretty conservative. They are not like SF VCs and do not want to make 10
bets to get one win. Canadian startups typically have to bootstrap well beyond
what any in the states would ever have to do. Sometimes this is ok, but for
the most part it shows that Canadian startup scene doesn't quite understand
risk and reward well. And, the majority of VCs are still out east in Canada,
though they are even worse in this regard because they simply don't get the
modern internet. In Toronto the tech industry was telephony and devices and it
seems that most of the VCs are so old school they still think this way.
Canadian VCs need to modernize their thinking quickly.

2\. SF VCs are not forward thinkers. At all. SF VCs continually say to
Canadian companies "you need to move to SF", which of course in 2016 is
complete and utter bullshit. Most VCs are actually not inventive or
progressive. Instead, they are followers of a few stronger VCs. And by a few,
I mean a tiny minority. Being followers, they have playbooks and patterns they
follow. It's basically scripts. SF based VCs want to invest in SF based
companies. This is a 1990s model that doesn't matter in 2016 and, much like
Canadian VCs, SF VCs need to update their thinking and look beyond this. They
might not feel they have to because there are so many people willing to live
and work in SF, but SF based VCs, the progressive ones, look for good ideas
and good teams. Location is not important. SF based VCs should adapt to the
brave new world and expand from a single geo.

3\. Salaries. Canadian salaries in tech are low. So low that many that live
close to the states and are young would simply move to the states. Now, this
sometimes works out, sometimes it doesn't. It works in places like Toronto and
Vancouver when the cost of living is awful (worse than SF when you factor in
housing with salary, IMO). It doesn't work when it's places like Victoria (at
the moment). This could actually change if salaries go up, ironically, though
it's unlikely for quite some time.

4\. Cargo Culture. Most techies in Victoria view SF as the mecca of tech. I
mean, it is, but not the way they idolize it. Smart and stupid have no geo
lock and many in Victoria/Canada have a bit of a complex when SF comes up.
Canadians need to stop looking at SF for inspiration and instead build the
local community up, make it a vibrant scene of their own and own it all.
Forget what SF is doing. Don't chase trends and build things of value.

~~~
AzzieElbab
great summary. two things to add: 1) with commodities prices falling, some
less risk adverse canadian investors(read mining) might change the situation
with vcs, and 2) silicon valley would be way to big for canada, canada only
needs about 10% of it

------
RUBwkVjwLsDKgPw
I bet $500 USD it doesn't become bigger than the bay area in the next 10
years.

~~~
astrodust
Good. The last thing needed here is a town full of jackasses creating the next
unicorns.

------
gregoreous
Toronto actually recently passed Chicago in population.

------
ianpenney
The deafening silence of polite Canadians up in here. I love it in Toronto.
YC:HN has taught me a lot so I hope you allow me to share the reasons why
Toronto is a phenomenal city in which to be a Hacker.

I've been a sysadmin for 16 years. My experience, is that Toronto is extremely
liberal and militantly tolerant. A bigoted insult upon someone on public
transit or in the streets will not go without being criticized by the public.
Even if you cast it in french.

We are proud of welcoming and integrating people.

[https://nulogy.com/who-we-are/careers/](https://nulogy.com/who-we-
are/careers/) \- Here are my company's core values. I think they're uniquely
Canadian, in a way. Empathy is pretty much #1. Our HQ is downtown. I've never
been happier and further from burnout as the ops manager at this gig.

Check out our local music scene
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IWZWo6IByM#t=53m44s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IWZWo6IByM#t=53m44s)
techno
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPZvNqNFaU8#t=50s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPZvNqNFaU8#t=50s)
hip hop
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uev2J_cBHjQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uev2J_cBHjQ)
rock

Lots of people want to live here, evident by rising rents :(.

The OP highlights an up and coming tech sector.

Kitchener-Waterloo (KW)... Yeah... The University of Waterloo has a great
funnel system for cooperative intern students in Ontario. They put a lot of
effort towards a kind of Mittelstand model. I'm nonplussed. Better self taught
hackers are drawn to the urban core after failing out of post secondary.

RIM was a thing, once. Now it's a joke. I heard someone throw shade about
RIM's big brother nature the other day.

I've coded puppet & chef for over 200+ startups. Startups are huge here and
the culture is very social and enjoyable! Meetups are big! I regularly run
into other new hackers in unrelated social settings. It's fun that way.

Uber is big. Dispensaries are big. Nightclubs are great. You can get food of
any origin.

Cycling is huge here. Incorporating cycling into your transportation means
living downtown is affordable, if you plan.

OH! Speaking of incorporating, in a business sense, it's trivial. You can do
it in 30 minutes at city hall.

Toronto, in my experience, has been the most exciting, happy and loving city
to call home. I'm truly in love with this city. It's safe, fun and full of
opportunity. I love walking down the street and hearing eighteen different
languages in one hour. I love seeing any world famous artists who would drop
by Canada.

Anybody who's seriously interested in the Toronto scene should drop by
[http://techmasters.chat/](http://techmasters.chat/) and talk to us. The tech
scene is on fire here! It's so exciting! ...and very welcoming!

------
fatdog
Seconded on risk aversion. Toronto is just not sexy. When you go to pitch a
client in a top tier city and you are from one, the client assumes that if you
can survive in SF/NY/DC/LON etc, that they should hear you out.

In Toronto, it's like you can't type 'hello world," without some cringeworthy
reporter going on about how it's by a sparky _canadian_ startup taking on the
big bad world with their local blend of quirky charm and _moxie_.

I'm sure that's warm and fuzzy to people who live on grant money, but to the
rest of the world it means "derivative and subsidized."

Toronto is a good place for dev shops, but innovation needs to be in places
where it is valued by people who actually pay for it. If you are doing
enterprise dev, it's great.

But nobody here is going to Mars, except maybe a scrappy group of girl
engineers who take no guff, and are writing codes with a critical take on
whether colonizing other planets is problematic in the face of our own
colonial history and need for healing and reparations...

~~~
minikites
I'm not sure what happened in that last paragraph, can you elaborate?

~~~
fatdog
What precisely could benefit from clarification?

~~~
pyre
You're obviously referring to something very specific, while being vague
enough that people that are not 'in' on it don't understand.

------
serge2k
That's gonna be quite a feat with absurd real estate prices, a weak dollar,
and lower salaries than the US even before you take into account the weak
dollar.

------
X86BSD
I thought that was supposed to be Austin? Silicone valley of the prairie or
something.

~~~
namenotrequired
This kind of thing is said all the time of different places :)

~~~
cbHXBY1D
I still haven't seen any of the places that are described as being the "next
Silicon Valley" actually become a huge tech hub organically.

------
locacorten
20 bucks says it won't.

~~~
coredog64
20 USD or 20 CAD?

------
cheez
Bullshit.

