
Why do you grab your bag when running off a burning plane? - hhs
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/11/sunday-review/plane-accident-psychology.html
======
michaelt

      Why would anyone evacuating a
      plane waste precious moments
      retrieving his Sudoku book
    

I think part of understanding this is replacing "Sudoku book" with "Passport,
travel insurance documents, money, and return plane ticket"

Everyone's heard the Kafkaesque stories of people getting stuck living in
airports for hundreds of days [1] or having to pay huge sums for hotels and
different flights out of their own pockets. Not that I imagine that would
happen if you fled a burning plane - but who'd be calm enough to reason that
through while their plane was on fire?

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_lived_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_lived_at_airports)

~~~
jrs235
When traveling, I keep those important and valuable belongings
(identification, money, life sustaining meds) on my persons either on inside
pockets or a holder on a lanyard tucked inside my clothes. The only time I
might be separated from them is when going through airport security. Typically
I'll hang onto my ID though and carry it through the body scanners (unless
they tell me not to).

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I don’t do this anymore ever since my passport fell out of my pocket onto the
airline seat after a long haul. I was able to get it back, but lesson learned:
passport goes into my carryon after the secondary visa check before boarding.

~~~
ohaideredevs
People who don't check their pockets every time they get up blow my mind.

~~~
kalleboo
I check them every time I get up...

except for that one time I actually dropped something

------
lisper
I used to think that if I was ever in a plane crash I'd want to save my
laptop, so now I've gotten into the habit of carrying a small SSD drive with
me whenever I travel. I use it to image the hard drive on my laptop. I keep it
in a ziploc bag in my pocket. Other than that, I never take anything with me
on a trip that I'm not willing to lose. That way if I am ever in a plane
crash, the drive, already in my pocket, is all I need to save from among my
belongings. Keeping it in a ziploc means it will be OK even if we go down over
water. (And, of course, I've got backups at home too.)

~~~
spectramax
Planning for a plane crash is probably the most ridiculous, insane thing one
can do. There is a benefit trade-off of preparation time and being worried all
the time. It bothers me when I see people always in “guarded” mode - these
people seem to never live freely, enjoy the moment and they constantly worry
about someone stealing their wallets or their car. I had a manager at work who
would steering lock with a giant steel rod on his brand new Mercedes which has
a number of safety/anti-theft systems.

I go to the other extreme which is probably also insane. I never use a phone
case, put a leather cover on my passport or any of these things. I’ve realized
that I have so many years to live and enjoy the products as they’re designed.
If I were to buy a Ferrari, you bet your bottom dollar I am driving the shit
out of it.

Edit: I want to clarify: I wear seatbelts, safety glasses (even when frying
something in the kitchen, yes your kitchen is essentially a chemical lab with
a Bunsen burner), sunscreen, regular health screenings, go to the dentist,
shower, etc. I think people are totally missing my point if your argument is
about ignoring safety, sanitation, etc.

~~~
jdavis703
We plan for car crashes by wearing seatbelts, buying insurance and some even
buy cars based on safety features. Carrying an SSD seems a little over the top
to me when there’s cloud backups, but perhaps there are reasons the poster
doesn’t trust cloud services.

And FWIW when I fly I keep my passport, phone and medicine on my body at all
times. While the odds of a crash are low it’s better to spend 15 seconds
preparing (especially since there’s barely anything else useful to be doing
while in the terminal or airplane).

~~~
fhbdukfrh
Carrying your passport on your person has nothing to do with planning for a
plane crash. You probably carry your phone in your pocket walking down the
street just in case of... meteor strike? Godzilla attack?

~~~
hyperman1
Correct but missing the point. Passport on your person is a small and easy
precaution for tons of unknown unknowns while travelling. A plane crash being
one of them.

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_red
This probably has a large amount of 'survivorship bias' embedded in it (no pun
intended).

People who are frantic, time-critical, but not immediate life-threatening
situations probably grab their bag (ie. the landing gear on plane has failed,
but plane has stopped on runway intact and not on fire).

This probably differs significantly if the plane was ripped in half, or people
were choking from thick toxic smoke. Those people probably don't even think
about grabbing their bag because they are in active severe pain / dying.

Point is, people are making a rational decision that "This is a dangerous
situation and I need to get out of here, but I will probably survive",
therefore they take their stuff with them.

~~~
dorfsmay
I'm not sure humans are very rational while in a panic. You hear a lot of
stories of people being in life threatening situations and make irrational
decisions, and the ones who survived saying they cannot explain why, but this
one stupid thing they focused on was somehow extremely important to them at
the time.

~~~
tyingq
Similarly, I find it odd in those "real life crime" TV shows when cops comment
on how someone's affect and demeanor "aren't right" following a murder.

------
js2
Because you don’t act rationally in a disaster:

 _In moments of total disaster — plane crashes or terrorist attacks —
something happens in our brains that affects the way we think. We behave
differently, often irrationally. Consider the World Trade Center workers who,
on Sept. 11, dithered at their desks, calling relatives, turning off computers
and pondering which mementos to rescue from their desks even as the doomed
jets burned above their heads.

In The Unthinkable, Ripley cites a National Institute of Standards and
Technology study that showed that those who made it out of the WTC waited an
average of six minutes after the plane hit their building before heading for
the exit and walking slowly — not running — down the stairs.

Ripley searches for patterns in human behavior by interviewing hundreds of
people who lived through catastrophes. Quick-witted survivors are surprisingly
anomalous. One fellow who made it through a horrific aircraft disaster in 1977
happened to be sitting on the runway reading an in-flight safety instruction
card when another plane crashed into his. He grabbed his wife, leapt through a
hole in the fuselage, and turned to see his fellow passengers remaining
docilely in their seats, immobile. Most of them died within minutes as fire
swept through the wreckage.

The author concludes that all of us undergo a three-stage process when we find
ourselves in mortal peril: denial, deliberation and the "decisive moment,"
during which the survivor buckles down and acts. The trick, she says, may be
to understand our instincts, which, in a crisis, may betray us. Some people
run toward infernos, not away, and even in the face of obvious impending
disaster, some people just won't move._

[https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=930339...](https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93033947)

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blensor
When I am on a plane. Especially on foreign trips, quite a substantial amount
of thoughts goes into not leaving anything behind, and thinking about
scenarios what would happen if I lost or forgot something important. Of course
everything of those items would be less important in a life and death
situation but as my brain is already trained for holding onto my stuff I can
understand why this happens.

I am not saying that this is a good thing but I think ingrained habits are
hard to break.

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xondono
What I’m wondering is how many of those people complaining on the Twitterverse
did so while driving or otherwise putting others at risk.

We live to think we’d do otherwise, but if we are honest with ourselves, we
know we’d do the same..

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sideaccount
What if my bag contains my identification, prescriptions, inhaler? there are a
lot of reasons to want your bag. What if you are a parent who carries things
to maintain the health/safety of a small child, does your 2 year old take
responsibility for their asthma medication?

~~~
megous
Then you can carry it on your body while being on a plane. Would that be worth
the inconvenience to you?

~~~
Mirioron
An inhaler and other medication along with your wallet, phone, and passport
would pretty much completely fill your pockets. Also, better hope that nobody
pickpockets you because you can't get refills for certain medication.

~~~
megous
So perhaps you can carry it only on takeoff and before landing, when there's a
higher chance of survival/emergency evacuation anyway.

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Waterluvian
I think it reveals that we should relieve people of the choice.

If it's not feasible to train and educate people until the proper behaviour is
a muscle memory, then maybe we need to find a way to eliminate choice.

~~~
freedomben
what do you mean? like lock down the overhead bins so people can't get to
their stuff?

~~~
gotts
Exactly. It could have saved someone's life.

~~~
Zealotux
I thought about this solution as well and I came to the conclusion that it
might worsen the situation even more: people panicking trying to force the
overhead compartment could slow the evacuation even more. You need just one
panicked passenger trying to force the lock to block a whole plane.

It would also be a quite challenging technical problem: are compartments
locked the whole flight? Are they locked only on emergencies? If so: who
thinks of locking them when an emergency occurs? I admit I don't know much
about emergency procedures for flight attendants.

~~~
Waterluvian
It's far too premature and ill-prepared to armchair solution workshop. My
point is that maybe the solution is to funnel humans towards a behaviour
rather than hoping for rational behaviour

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amelius
Because it is not fined?

I mean, if the options are a 20k fine or leaving your bag, then for most
people the choice is simple.

~~~
dingaling
It'd probably work better as an incentive: $20k compensation for everyone who
leaves _without_ a bag.

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gist
Article did not breach a few points.

First, why is there no law or clear punishment against grabbing your luggage
in an emergency or otherwise obstructing the safe exit from the plane? If
someone were intentionally obstructing others in this or in another situation
(burning building) that would clearly be most likely seen as some type of
crime. Why not here?

Why no announcement on the plane? (Back up by the 'federal crime' as they do
with smoking in the lavatory).

> Psychologists caution, though, against being too quick to judge.

The fact that there should be no judgement or we should not think we would do
different does not detract that people might have to get drilled into them not
to follow some particular behavior. It's almost as if the psychologists and
trying to give the behavior a pass.

> That passenger reaching for the bag with his favorite sweater or maybe a
> present for his kid? He’s probably just acting human.

Not really. What is human about prioritizing a 'present for your kid' or 'your
favorite sweater'? That's irrational. Non adult. And actually child like.
People should not get a pass for doing stupid things.

> grabbing for possessions is more common than one might think

Actually what is probably happening is people see other people grab things and
then mimic that behavior. You see the same type of thing with traffic. One
person does a u turn and then a bunch of people follow.

> “We have in the past publicly commented on the need for passengers to leave
> carry-on items behind during an emergency,” said Christopher O’Neil'

I wish there were no speeding laws and tickets and the state just gave that
type of friendly reminder!

~~~
oarsinsync
> The fact that there should be no judgement or we should not think we would
> do different does not detract that people might have to get drilled into
> them not to follow some particular behavior.

> I wish there were no speeding laws and tickets

I understand what you’re saying, and as a driver and frequent flier,
appreciate both points.

Unfortunately, the reality is in absolute numbers:

There are large numbers of people speeding daily, and large numbers of people
dying on the roads daily, globally.

There are orders of magnitude fewer numbers of people flying on planes that
perform emergency disembarking events, and more orders of magnitude fewer
people dying in these instances.

Given the frequency of reminders getting drilled into drivers that speed
kills, who continue to speed frequently, how frequent would reminders to not
grab possessions in an emergency situation actually have to be in order to be
effective?

The base premise of the point to not judge is that in an emergency situation,
some people are acting on instinct.

Meanwhile people who speed are more often making a conscious decision to do so
based on their own view of road conditions.

~~~
gist
The main idea is law and punishment not just reminders. And the punishment
needs to be done in a way that people take notice not slap on the wrist
(because in some cases that can and would backfire). If it's important (and it
is) it's important to insure a big enough punishment (at the discretion of a
judge) to make people completely not even think of doing it.

~~~
oarsinsync
> it's important to insure a big enough punishment (at the discretion of a
> judge) to make people completely not even think of doing it

So what punishment would keep people from speeding? The best I can think of
that would be effective on me would be to immediately suspend my license for
some period of time, and potentially immediately impound my vehicle too. Maybe
1 week per % caught over the speed limit? The current system doesn't stop me
speeding (as demonstrated earlier today) when there's a nice big gap between
me and the car in front. Plus I'm gonna learn those repercussions faster than
my car's going after that's impacted me, anyone I know, or even seen on the
news that it's actually being enforced. It's in my interests to now learn this
and stop misbehaving, as it's something that impacts my day to day life.

Meanwhile, how do you now find a way to educate people about a punishment that
has a tiny percentage chance of being relevant to them twice a year? And how
do you hold it up in court, when the entire defence is then predicated on
"they weren't thinking, it wasn't a conscious decision, they were in a state
of fear?"

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maxxxxx
There are a lot of things that, if done individually, make sense, but if the
whole group does it there is a problem. Leaving your bag behind means that you
have to replace it later which costs a lot and takes time. So it makes sense
to avoid this trouble. It also makes sense to rush to wards the exit if there
is a fire but if everyone does it you have a problem.

------
amelius
Perhaps the overhead bins should be lockable from the cockpit?

~~~
VectorLock
This is the same thought I had as well and when I thought about it a bit and
although it does have some utility draw backs (have to ask the flight
attendant to open the bin to get something from your bag) it seems like it
would also have some other benefits for safety as well such as preventing
people from opening the bins when the fasten seatbelts sign is on, or popping
open during turbulence.

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simplicio
I'm pretty forgetful, and so over the years I've trained myself to
automatically keep a list of stuff I have on me, and do a quick check whenever
I move from place to place to make sure I'm not leaving anything behind. Over
the years, this has become an almost subconcious process.

So I suspect in a similar disaster I might be one of those people grabbing
their luggage, just because in a panic I can see myself mindlessly
"defaulting" to my usual routine as I get up to try and escape.

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alex_young
Does the shift to charging for checked bags make this worse? I suspect this
choice is new to most people since they used to have that stuff locked away
from sight.

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chrismcb
Why? I can think of two reasons. Habit. This is pretty powerful. I've deplaned
a normal plane at least a hundred times. I've deplaned from a burning plane
zero times. Second is, especially in the digital age, my laptop, phone, go
pro, all have digital data that is irreplaceable that I may not have backed up
yet.

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booleandilemma
Because I didn’t push my code yet, obviously.

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a-b
This is a well-known post ussr feature "do not give a #it about anyone but
yourself".

~~~
Mirioron
I wonder why you're downvoted. I live in a former Soviet state and my
impression is that the Soviet era taught people to always prioritize your own
stuff, because nobody else will care about it.

~~~
freedomben
I spent some time in Azerbaijan and I was amazed at how much the locals helped
us out. We had a mechanical break down and random strangers stopped to help us
out. They actually fixed our car and got us back on the road! It was mind-
blowing, genuine love for fellow humans and it deeply affected me.

That said, of course that's a microscopic sample size in a vast empire. No
doubt it's not representative.

~~~
sakopov
That is very typical in the Caucasus. I have countless of stories of people
going completely out of their way to help out and requesting nothing back in
return, but instead maybe even invite you for a dinner with their family.
Incredibly hospitable region.

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bartimus
I often have my backpack stowed under the seat in front of me. I could
theoretically put it on while still seated. But I'm sure I'll be fractions
faster if I'm not wearing it.

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baconhigh
i'm first aid / pre-hospital rescue trained and i carry a small first aid kit
in my bag at all times.

I'm going to be more useful if I take my bag, and I can have it out from under
the seat in front of me and around my body in seconds.

So yeah, I'm taking my bag.

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smbullet
Paywall and outline doesn't seem to work with NYT.

