
Coding bootcamp broke the law. How to get into tech? - thatdeafcoder
Got accepted to a coding bootcamp. Deaf, asked for ASL interpreters.<p>“We can’t.” I said, that&#x27;s illegal. (I live in the US. ADA mandates compliance.)<p>“OK, we will work on getting you access.” So I paid them.<p>“lol, kidding! No interpreters - voice-to-text software instead!”<p>Oh hell no. But I had already paid. &amp; maybe I was wrong?<p>Nope. First day of class, four hours of this:<p>&quot;GodzillaYeah crazy Yeah like the class What are you going to Google Good morning Would you park music So I can count fast But just in case Or have an hour and a half two hours I think it&#x27;s healthy right now near me Safe mode emails or talk to each other on slack make friends you guys help each other out the if you want to talk to me&quot;<p>Tried two technologies: Google Docs voice-to-text &amp; Dragon NaturallySpeaking. Dragon was a lil better; both were awful for someone relying on them to understand speech.<p>Other problems:<p>* Needed to keep window focus on the doc that the software was transcribing into. If tabbed away, software would a. stop transcribing (Google Docs) or b. transcribe into the new window (Dragon). So couldn’t work along w&#x2F; exercises.<p>* The software did not pick up what other students said; they were out of range of the mic. This is a participation-based class.<p>* Dragon is designed for blind people, so it can execute commands on their behalf. Great for them. Not so great in this situation. Remember how I said we were working in the command line? The instructor was reading out very basic but very dangerous commands such as `rm -rf.` Thankfully, nothing happened, but ugh.<p>~<p>tl;dr I had to drop out of bootcamp because no interpreters. Money refunded but I am filing complaints. They’re partnered w&#x2F; a university; fairly strict rules around ADA + funding.<p>Now I&#x27;m trying to figure out what to do. Have you ever been in this situation? What did you do? And how the hell can I get into tech?
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amorphid
I'm not deaf, but if you'd like, I'd be happy to do some pair programming with
you over a chat client. We could come up with something appropriate for your
skill level and see how it goes! I'm more of a back-end developer, but I do
know a bit of front-end stuff. If interested, my email is in my profile.

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neoburkian
Sounds like you had an unpleasant experience, but there are a few things here
that make it seem like the bad experience is clouding your judgement.

1) It isn't the bootcamp's fault that speech to text software sucks. 2) What
is the state of affairs that would have made the situation better for you?
Either (1) they write their own non-sucky speech to text software or (2) they
hire a whole new interpreter just for you and only for the duration of the
camp. Neither of these things are financially or logistically reasonable
expectations. 3) Bootcamps aren't a golden ticket into tech. Build your own
portfolio of projects and you will be just as hirable as fresh bootcamp grads.

UC Berkeley had an online public library of lectures but it wasn't subtitled.
When someone used the ADA to sue, Berkeley was faced with the enormous cost to
either subtitle their entire library or take it down. Of course, they took it
down, and now nobody can access the lectures. Don't be the person who burns
down someone else's house just because you don't have one.

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sterlind
As a title III entity serving the public, the bootcamp is obligated to provide
an interpreter:

 _" For people who are deaf, have hearing loss, or are deaf-blind, this
includes providing a qualified notetaker; a qualified sign language
interpreter, oral interpreter, cued-speech interpreter, or tactile
interpreter; real-time captioning; written materials; or a printed script of a
stock speech (such as given on a museum or historic house tour). A “qualified”
interpreter means someone who is able to interpret effectively, accurately,
and impartially, both receptively (i.e., understanding what the person with
the disability is saying) and expressively (i.e., having the skill needed to
convey information back to that person) using any necessary specialized
vocabulary."_

Source: [https://www.ada.gov/effective-
comm.htm](https://www.ada.gov/effective-comm.htm)

They could have complied by hiring an interpreter or even simply writing
captions for the lecture, but they decided to violate the law instead.

Also,

> _Don 't be the person who burns down someone else's house just because you
> don't have one._

is absolutely disgusting. The ADA exists because, as a society, we decided to
make life accessible for disabled people. One day you'll get hurt, and you'll
learn how important reasonable accommodations are.

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neoburkian
I'm accepting that the bootcamp is legally required to provide an interpreter.
I'm questioning whether or not that requirement is a 'reasonable'
accommodation. The bootcamp probably graduates around 60 people per year, this
is the first deaf applicant they have likely ever had.

It may be reasonable for large institutions to have dedicated personnel for
less than one percent of their customers given that their customer base is so
large. That calculation becomes financially unworkable in smaller
organizations.

The fact that you resort to ad-hominem without addressing the example is
telling. It terrifies me that people endorse the de-facto destruction of a
commons just because a tiny fraction of the population can't use it.

EDIT: Some have pointed out that saying an argument is disgusting is not ad-
homanim. This is correct, and I was wrong to use it in that way. However, I
stand by the second part of the last paragraph.

~~~
mundo
1) You can hire ASL interpreters by the day

2) "Your argument is disgusting" is not ad hominem

~~~
neoburkian
1) This is the best argument I've heard so far and has come the closest to
getting me to change my mind. Conditional on ASL interpreters being reasonably
priced and getting them to show up requires a minimal amount of bureaucratic
rigmarole, then my above sentiment was wrong and ill informed.

If, however, this is prohibitively expensive then things change. E.g. A quick
google search led to the hourly cost of an ASL interpreters being between
$50-$145 per hour. Assume $100/hr, 5 hr days, 5 days/week, 4wks/month, for a 3
month program and the cost is $30,000 which significantly higher than bootcamp
tuition. I don't think it is a trivial thing to force small companies to take
customers that create losses in excess of 10K.

Of course, this also depends on how "small" the bootcamp is. If, e.g. it is a
huge machine with thousands of students then this could be a reasonable
expectation.

2) Yes you are correct. See my above edit.

~~~
codyogden
Take it from someone who graduated with a degree in ASL and worked in the
industry for a few years. That price is sticker shock for someone looking to
schedule weeks of ongoing work...but hear me out.

90% of appointments booked through interpreting agencies are a two hour
minimum. They don't usually have reliable, ongoing, weeks-long, scheduled work
for interpreters.

Agencies are businesses. They will wield and deal to lower their price to make
the sale. If you go through an agency, you can bet they have interpreters that
are qualified. When you have this amount of work, you can strike deals that
can lower that rate pretty significantly.

~~~
neoburkian
Assume that the median bootcamp price is something like $15K. Can you get an
ASL interpreter for 3 months and 5hr days at that rate?

If it turns out that this can be done, I'll concede that the bootcamp was in
the wrong and my arguments in this case were incorrect.

~~~
codyogden
I was directly responsible for negotiating prices for ongoing engagements just
like this (even more long term). For an engagement like this, we'd probably
agree to $40 per hour. At 25 hours per week for 12 weeks, that's a $12k for a
single interpreter for that engagement.

The interpreter we'd send would be qualified, but may not be licensed (which
is fine and legal under the ADA definition).

You mentioned "reasonable accommodation" earlier, and I think what you're
trying to argue is "undue hardship." So, you're the one that gave me
numbers...

If a bootcamp charges $15k per student, and they graduate 60 people per year
(you mentioned in another comment), that brings a revenue to $900k. Even if
the bootcamp needed to pay $30k for one student to have a contracted
interpreter, that's only 3% of their yearly revenue. I'm not a tax law expert,
but I'd imagine you can also write off the cost of interpreting services as a
business expense. It'd be pretty difficult to look at those numbers and see an
undue hardship on their business.

~~~
neoburkian
Alright, given this argument, I am now convinced that it was in fact
reasonable for the bootcamp to hire an interpreter, and the fact that they
didn't do that justifiably opens them up for some kind of legal action.

I would like to edit my original post to reflect this, but unfortunately it
seems like I can't edit it anymore.

~~~
sterlind
Sorry to be hard on you, but thank you for listening to the debate and
changing your view.

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whb07
What about a bootcamp is enticing you? Why don’t you do this at a university
in which it could provide for your needs? It would also provide for stronger
credentials for you in your search for a job.

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toomuchtodo
Have you found an ADA attorney yet? If not, I’d encourage you to do so.

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chatmasta
If they’re partnered with a university, you could make a big stink and drag
the university through the mud. I’m sure some media outlets would love to
write about this. Start with an op-Ed in the university newspaper.

If you put the pressure on right, the university will drop the coding bootcamp
partnership as quickly as possible, with a nice letter about how “deeply
troubled” they are. Then file suit against the bootcamp and collect your
settlement money.

Now, that’s not to say I advocate this approach... but it seems to be the MO
of “activists” everywhere nowadays and it clearly works.

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mabynogy
Never pay for education (for yourself). OK, for your kids.

