
Employers say more workers are leaving without giving two weeks’ notice - walterclifford
http://www.wsj.com/articles/is-it-ever-ok-to-quit-on-the-spot-1466531589
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careersuicide
A couple of jobs ago I didn't give any sort of notice when I quit. I waited
until the CEO and CFO (a husband and wife duo) left for the day, said my
goodbyes to my coworkers, and left a note with my office key under the door of
the CEO informing him that I was quitting effective immediately and requesting
that they do not contact me for any reason whatsoever. Frankly I'm inclined to
think I was too polite. The way they treated their employees (not so much me,
but the others) was cruel. A textbook example of psychopathic tryanny writ
small. I wish them nothing but the worst.

My last job, however, I gave my employer three weeks notice. I cried when I
had to tell my boss I had taken a job elsewhere. It wasn't the hardest thing
I've ever done, but quitting that job definitely cracks the top five most
emotional moments of my life. I'm happy where I am now, but I was happy there
too, surrounded by good people and working under a manager I not only
respected but admired as a person. I am keenly aware of how rare a thing that
is. The only reason I left was because of the company policy that allows
people to leave and then come back no questions asked if they left on good
standing. I needed to take a personal risk and they actually encourage that.

The point of my anecdotes is: you reap what you sow. Treat people like shit,
pay them poorly, humiliate them publicly and they will quit the moment they
can with spite instead of hesitation. Show people kindness, pay them what
they're worth, and give them chances to learn from their mistakes and you will
routinely have people work for you for decades. If more people are quitting
without notice then employers need only to look at how they treat people to
see why.

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mikeash
Slavery has been illegal in the US for about a century and a half. The answer
is, of course, "yes." If an employer doesn't like that, then they should make
sure their people are motivated to stay. Warning: this may involve paying them
more.

Certainly you _shouldn 't_ unless you have a really good reason. If you just
can't agree about the new product name, you should definitely give notice. If
they handed you a gun and ordered you to kill a customer, quit on the spot.

A lot of employees are loyal to companies, not so much the other way around.
They're both quite similar: when a loyal employee thinks about quitting, they
worry about the impact it'll have on the company. When the company sees
someone quit (or fires them), they too worry about the impact it'll have on
the company.

~~~
alva
'A lot of employees are loyal to companies, not so much the other way around.'

Recognising and then losing this mindset is so important. Many of my younger
friends who have only been employed a few years appear to have fierce loyalty
to their employers. So many have sacrificed salary for essentially worthless
options. They appear less likely to ask for a raise, assert their rights to
reasonable work hours, dissent to a bad work environment.

The best way I have found for avoiding this is reducing the idea of your job
into a very simple transaction, taking the view of a consultant. You have
problems that need solving and will pay. I will solve those problems for pay.
When seen as purely transactional, I believe the individual feels more
empowered and avoids the loyalty trap.

~~~
dpc59
I lost jobs as a teenager because I had that "transaction" mentality.

~~~
yardie
Most of the jobs I've lost as a teenager were because of normal teenage things
like SAT/ACT/AP exams. Like they really wanted me to value the job more than
my future.

Another thing they liked to do was change the schedule after publishing it.
But it's my fault for not checking the schedule everyday.

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Aloha
I've always given notice, but over time its been much more acceptable for
employers to lay people off without notice/let people go without notice/walk
people who give notice - in that environment, I feel no loyalty, nor
obligation to give notice myself. It's also perfectly acceptable to quit
without notice in the first two weeks of work. Quitting because of severe
malfeasance on the part of the employer is also somewhat obviously OK.

~~~
jboy55
You should give two weeks notice, but be financially prepared to have to leave
immediately. However, if a company does ask you to walk instead of notice,
they've pretty much given up on ever getting any notice from any of their
other employees.

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trowawee
If you flipped this and asked all these people arguing that it's never ok to
quit on the spot if it's fine to fire someone on the spot, do you think a
single one would say no? Of course not. Employers wanted right-to-work laws to
make it easier for them to fire workers at will; workers should feel free to
return the favor and leave when and if they want.

~~~
chris11
I do think that it matters how someone is fired on the spot though. I'd say
firing someone on the spot is about the same as giving them a few weeks notice
if you also give them full pay for those weeks and also officially end the
employment after that period. I'd rather take a few days off and get extra
time to look for a new job instead of coming into work at a company who is
letting me go in a few weeks.

~~~
gk1
It's also usually in the company's best interest to _not_ have you continue
coming in for two weeks. Too much risk of sabotage.

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kagali
> “Well, good for you,” Mr. Tremblay says he thought at the time. He could
> understand wanting a vacation, but felt “you’re also screwing our business,”
> leaving the company short-staffed at a busy time.

Turned around that becomes "You're laying me off, in exchange for higher
corporate profits, when I have bills due".

~~~
jedberg
Any decent company would give you a severance payment of at least two weeks
when laying you off.

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zzalpha
Given the total lack of loyalty given to employees by employers, combined with
an unwillingness to give references (limiting the impact on professional
reputation), why would anyone be surprised by this?

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nickpsecurity
What's interesting about this article is I saw only two parts where it
mentioned critical, employer behavior. That behavior is treating people like
disposable objects with no concern for their pay or well-being. Also,
reinforcing it by pushing for "at-will" employment where they can even drop
good workers without cause. Lots of layoffs of loyal employees at the big
firms over the past decade just reinforce this issue.

So, after all that crap, they want to say a person is doing a disservice to
the company to quit without two weeks of extra benefit to the company? Funny
stuff. They keep forgetting that capitalism says that _everyone_ , not just
business owners, should act in their self interest. Truth told, unless it's a
stakeholder-oriented business, then everyone should be giving the company as
little as possible. Like the company does them.

Companies that want loyal employees that will make sacrifices for them know
what to do. They can go back to old IBM Watson or current, Publix Crenshaw
approach of taking care of workers along with incentives for them to improve
bottom line. Then, the workers will take care of them and much less likely to
disappear in a day. That simple. My money says they won't do it, though. So,
ditch them the second you get a better offer much like the CEO or board
members would.

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alva
It appears from across the pond that the US heavily favours employers when it
comes to workers rights. I could be wrong, but I believe in most states you
can be fired even without a reasonable cause. This is extremely different from
the UK, at least for full time workers 1-year+ at the company.

As this is the case, I don't think quitting on the spot is an unfair use of
the system.

~~~
switch007
In the UK it's usually only after 2 years at a company can you go to an
employment tribunal for unfair dismissal. (You can go to a tribunal however
claiming discriminatory dismissal/whistleblowing/H&S (and a few more
categories) under 2 years.). AFAIK there is nothing special about 1 year (and
probationary periods ending are merely contractual. What usually changes is
benefit entitlement, notice periods etc)

Also, tribunal fees are also quite expensive: £390 for unpaid wages, £1,200
for unfair dismissal.

Further, employers can just make you quit through a series of changes in your
job. Constructive dismissal I imagine is quite difficult for the employee to
prove.

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cwkoss
Giving notice is a courtesy. I think it's the 'right' thing when you think you
and your employer have mutual respect for each other.

However, if you feel you are being underpaid, under-appreciated, or asked to
do unethical things, why do you owe them anything? Just get out! Maybe if it
stings a bit, they'll treat their remaining/future employees a bit better (or
go out of business).

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billmalarky
"Others cite an increased tendency among employers to rescind job offers"

I was under the impression an employer could get in litigation trouble for
rescinding a formal job offer that costs the employee significantly (ie moving
across country, losing their old job, etc).

At the very least I'd imagine they would get one hell of a glassdoor black
mark pulling a stunt like that.

~~~
HappyTypist
Depends on intent, if you gave two people offers for one position just to see
which one would accept the fastest you'd have a lawsuit. If there was a
genuine reason then it's fine. Just like how a company can't sue you if you
recind after signing a contract, even if the company stopped hiring and had
monetary damages as a result.

~~~
khedoros
>Just like how a company can't sue you if you recind after signing a contract

How would that work? Wouldn't that be a breach of a binding contract, or is
there usually some kind of exit clause to account for specific circumstances?

~~~
billmalarky
Well it is "at will" employment, so you're more or less quitting the new job
immediately. Most people would of course not turn down a job immediately
_after_ signing a job offer. They just wouldn't sign the job offer.

What I was getting at, is I had heard somewhere that companies can be liable
if they extend a job offer then rescind it causing the employee considerable
harm. Sounds like it is a "it depends" type of situation.

~~~
jimmydddd
Sometimes, while interviewing for multiple jobs, the window to accept an offer
for job A ends before you receive an offer for (preferable) job B. So you
accept job A as a hedge, and then immediately rescind job A if you get the
offer for job B.

~~~
fdsaaf
And there's nothing wrong with that, since if you view A and B as actors,
they're both (because they're inhuman corporations) psychopathic monsters who
will fuck you over in an instant

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beamatronic
I think many of us have probably felt the temptation, but please do realize,
you are building a reputation over time, and it is probably best to be
remembered as someone who acts like a professional. If you work in the Bay
Area, it is really common to reconnect with past co-workers years later at a
different company.

~~~
p4wnc6
Assuming there is a justifiable reason behind it, quitting on the spot is not
at all unprofessional, and may even be the most professional thing you can do
in a given circumstance.

When I meet people who have quit on the spot, I always assume it was for a
reasonable, professional reason. Unless I am somehow presented with evidence
suggesting otherwise, there is no reason for that to have a generic stigma of
unprofessionalism. It's just a normal part of business life.

The same is largely also true with employment gaps. Too often people make
unreasonable assumptions about why someone has a gap. For example, in my own
case I have had a big unemployment gap due to a severe family problem that was
truly unavoidable and required full-time effort from me for around 8 months.
I'll never know how many hiring managers saw the gap on my resume and elected
to reject me solely based on that, assuming it was a negative mark regarding
my skill or job performance, without ever asking me to find out. I definitely
don't want to make that same mistake by unfairly making premature assumptions
about other people I meet who have gaps on their resume.

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fdsaaf
Good. You know what? In a world where overzealous HR departments can fire
valuable contributors out of the blue for infractions only HR is responsible
enough to know, fuck a two week notice. If HR is going to make employment
adversarial, let them reap what they fucking sow.

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exabrial
Totally fine with this.

Put it this way, if a manager has this happen more than twice, fire him.

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rdoherty
This is one of those 'it depends' questions (like most important ones are!).

I've quit on the spot once and I think it was ok. I was consulting (paid
hourly), had multiple disagreements with my 'boss' (CEO) about major work
behaviors (wanted to literally sit behind me while working and watch,
critiqued my work despite not being technical and tried to control
everything). No loss, had plenty of work elsewhere, wasn't going to use him as
a reference.

Other times I've quit from places I've worked at for > 6 months I gave at
least 2 weeks notice.

So, use your judgment :)

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bpodgursky
A lot of people are approaching this as an employer/employee relationship,
which is fair, but I think it's more important to understand how quitting on
the spot affects the employee - employee relationship.

If someone I work with quits day-of, and there's no obvious signs that it was
over an ethical no-go, I'm going to conclude that it's someone I don't want to
collaborate with in the future.

If you can't make the effort to spend a week cleaning up loose ends, document
your projects, and pass on knowledge to the rest of the team, you are
certainly not someone I want to work with in the future -- much less ever
consider having as a co-founder. It's just basic professionalism.

Obviously not the case if the employer asked you to do something unethical,
but you need to make that clear to the rest of your team if it happened, in
order to reasonably retain their respect.

~~~
maerF0x0
> If you can't make the effort to spend a week cleaning up loose ends,
> document your projects, and pass on knowledge to the rest of the team, you
> are certainly not someone I want to work with in the future -- much less
> ever consider having as a co-founder. It's just basic professionalism.

Why would you accept the same case from a company? ("at will employment")

~~~
cinquemb
Why would I wanna work for free for a "for profit" company (or any
organization for that matter that doesn't at least value my time I may spend
with them to at least compensate for such labor to the extent I feel its
worth), esp when they couldn't even give the time of day to ask for that stuff
while one is still being compensated by them (or make a better offer than
leaving cold turkey, "at will employment" remember)?

Fuck whatever kind of "professionalism" that is lol I'll keep it movin. Plenty
of other people want to work with me :D

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zem
i agree with one of the points the article made - in any company where
employees are routinely fired/laid off without notice, quitting without notice
is implicitly acceptable.

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slackstation
Why is it that there is a cultural meme and expectation for an Employee to
give notice to an Employer but, none the other way around?

In fact, it largely happens only because it's mandated by law.

If I have loyalty to an organization and I don't want to hurt the people who
keeping that organization running, then yeah, I'll give notice but, that is a
gift.

No one has ever told me that the company is going to be downsizing in two
weeks; an exit interview and an escort out of the building is the only thing
I've gotten.

------
thegayngler
I usually try to provide the courtesy of a 2 week notice. I've even stayed 3
weeks at a previous employer's request and found them a suitable replacement.

However, at one of my jobs a COO yelled at me in front of everyone over an
issue he could've resolved himself by sending out a well written email like I
had done.

He thought I should just start tearing code apart to "find" a solution until
12am if that's what it took. I told him that I was not doing anything until I
spoke with our vendor and that he will just have to wait until the vendor
responds as 24 hours had not even passed since I sent the email. The CTO
didn't even defend me. Well the next day it turns out that I had done the
write thing and that the COO and friends had changed the admin settings and
broke the system. No code needed to be changed like I suspected. They just
needed to use the admin settings correctly.

The COO did not even apologize for yelling at me in front of everyone. On top
of that he still owes me $400. So yea... Three weeks later I had an offer in
hand and a vacation starting the next day that I had already paid for the
month prior. What do you think I did? I gave my two weeks notice and hopped on
the plane.

I can think of a time when I probably should've quit on the first day. It was
right after they told me they use SVN and half of their code base was located
in their content management system which was comprised of some messy jsp files
some html css and a mountain of horribly written javascript (This javascript
had one letter variable names everywhere that were not the result of a build
tool and not simply located in for loops). I hated every second of it. Yet, I
still managed to work there for a year and I gave a two week notice.

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wrong_variable
_" Is It Ever OK to Quit on the Spot?"_

The title reminds me of Bill Burr's sketch about "You should never hit a
women".

I though the default was to quit using email the evening you found a better
job ?

Maybe its just the Millennial in me talking.

~~~
quantumhobbit
The Millennial angle is interesting. The comments and to a lesser degree the
article itself imply that millennials are the ones quitting without notice.
However in my personal experience, I have only ever seen boomers quit on the
spot, whereas millennials and genXers have gone above and beyond by giving 3
or more weeks. Younger workers seem much more afraid of the potential damage a
negative reputation can do to their future careers.

------
mark_l_watson
About 30 years ago I had a boss (who I liked) ask me for 7 weeks more work,
after I gave notice. I gave him the 7 weeks (new company was OK with that; I
had worked for them before), even though it was a personal hassle. Fast
forward to 5 years ago: same ex-boss and his wife visited my wife and I when
they were traveling through Arizona, and we had a great time.

That said, now in most cases, everything is at-will and neither side really
owes the other anything, although it is good to be polite and not burn
bridges.

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thefastlane
from a game theory standpoint, giving two weeks notice should be considered
from the perspective of managing your reputation with your peers in your
industry, not about whether we 'owe' something or not to our employer.
teamwork, communication, cooperation (see Stephen Covey) are as important as
technical competency.

it's a bit like the mark twain quote: "never argue with a fool, onlookers may
not be able to tell the difference."

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ryandrake
The huge down-side risk when giving notice is that the company can take
advantage and fire you as soon as you give notice, cutting your paycheck,
health insurance, etc. that day. I've seen this happen on more than one
occasion, and have since been extremely wary of following the "tradition" of
giving notice. When you're living paycheck to paycheck or close, you don't
need that kind of risk.

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reboog711
I quit my only professional 'full-time' job on the spot. It was a very
emotional decision. However, even then I gave two weeks notice. After a week
off, they hired me back as a consultant [which was a bit rocky; but at least I
got sent home after 8 hours]. Since then they've hired me as a consultant
multiple times and I'm glad I didn't burn that bridge.

------
Cozumel
You can walk out on the spot and should if you really have to, but it's been
my personal experience that if you do then the employer just doesn't pay you
what they owe!

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joe563323
To those who have quit on spot, Bravo and i envy you really. Not many have the
luxury to do it.

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dang
We changed the title to the subtitle, which is more substantive.

