
Ask HN: Why are we (developers) way overpaid for what we do? - bsvalley
Why would I make $200k&#x2F;year working as a developer at company, when all I have to do is to close a few tasks, fix a few bugs and make sure I&#x27;m not a jerk with my teammates? Meanwhile I get free food, free transportation, full health benefits, stocks, 401k and the list goes on...<p>Am I a fraud? Are we a fraud to the system?<p>I had a chance to work on the entrepreneurial side and it&#x27;s the complete opposite. You work extremely hard for free. Sure, the reward could be huge, but you&#x27;d fail 99% of the time. Which is why I&#x27;m really wondering if we (developers) are living in a bubble that is about to burst?
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corporateslave2
The real issue is people thinking that they arent valuable enough to make
200k. Most other professional careers reguarly have this level of comp,
doctors, lawyers, any job in finance, consulting, higher level management. Yet
the value an engineer can provide is high levels of automation, they can build
the backbone of a company. If anything, engineers are underpaid. At my current
job, I tweeked a major Fortune 50 companies email marketing algorithm, gaining
them an extra 1% in marketing engagement, generating easily in the tens of
millions in revenue. Any other field would see a massive bonus for that. If
anything, we are underpaid.

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rprospero
It's true that devs provide massive value to an organization. However,
organizations spend less on things that provide more value. For instance,
Amazon spends a lot on devs. Imagine that they had to go a year without any
devs in any of their offices or warehouses - they'd be hurting pretty badly.
Comparatively, Amazon spends next to nothing on oxygen. Yet, I would wager
that, if Jeff Bezos was given the choice, he'd much rather run a year without
devs than a year without oxygen.

The basic problem is supply and demand. Oxygen provides more value than devs,
but the supply is huge, so we don't spend that much on it. Devs aren't as
plentiful as oxygen, so there is less supply. They do provide significant
value to companies, though not as much as oxygen, so there should be demand.
What the op and I are confused by is how, given the fairly copious supply of
devs, why are some firms still shelling out 200k? I've seen other
organizations paying $40k and having no troubles filling their positions with
commensurate levels of talent.

You say that people are underestimating their own value when they work for
$40k. I believe that firms are significantly underestimating the supply when
they're paying $200k. I'm not sure which of us is correct.

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corporateslave2
The supply of people who want to be investment bankers is massive.

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codegeek
"All I have to do is to close a few tasks, fix a few bugs..."

This reminds me of a joke (or real event??) where an expert sent an invoice
listed with the following items:

\- Item: Fix xyz part : $50

\- Item: Knowing what and where to fix: $1000

So as developers, we supposedly create value. Yes all jobs create value but
the argument is that to become a good developer, it takes a lot. So you get
paid the big bucks for knowing what to do. Same with any high skilled
profession.

On a different note, I will actually argue that we are not as well paid
generally. Yes compared to a receptionist, we get paid a lot more. But
compared to the C levels or execs, we get paid peanuts. So, it depends where
you see it from. Tons of good developers never get to 200K (even in places
such as CA or NY). I know a lot of them personally.

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CM30
Well, we're not all like that. The average wage for a developer is far lower
in much of Europe or Asia that it is in North America, and in North America
it's far lower outside of Silicon Valley.

Most of us won't get $200K a year as a developer regardless of what we do.

As for why people in Silicon Valley are overpaid for this work? Well, I
suspect it's partly down to a bunch of factors.

For instance, things like rent are pretty high over there, so someone being
paid a normal wage couldn't really afford to live in the area. So any Silicon
Valley that can afford to pay its employees high wages will, just so they're
not commuting miles into work every day.

Competition is important here too. If your competitors pay high wages, you'll
also need to pay them in order to lure in employees. So with many Silicon
Valley companies pay hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, their
competitors have to follow suit not to lose their entire workforce.

Same with a lot of things like free food, transportation, etc. They know
people look for perks when choosing a job, so offer them in order to be
overlooked for a company that does.

That said, those things are not uncommon in other industries or companies.
Whether a company offers free food, charges you for it or tells you to get it
yourself from the local high street depends on the company. The latter is
admittedly a tad more common outside of the Valley and US in general though.

And yes, there's likely a bubble aspect here too. Startups in the Valley are
often flush with cash and finding it very easy to raise capital. So it almost
encourages them to splash out money on things like wages and office perks.

Hope that helps!

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BjoernKW
Supply and demand. As an employee you very likely still get paid a lot less
than the value the company you're working for extracts from your work or
otherwise that company wouldn't be around for long.

It's a common fallacy to think that people - regardless of income bracket -
are paid for their time and inconvenience rather than the value they create
with their work.

This widespread attitude in turn probably is at least partially responsible
for a lot of waste: Things like excessively long but utterly unproductive and
meaningless meetings. Activities like answering emails all day while really
accomplishing nothing.

Work is often perceived to be something that has to be cumbersome and awful in
order to be real, worthwhile work. If it doesn’t suck it can’t be work, can
it? Conversely, if it feels like 'work' it must be work, even if you're not
creating any value in the process.

So, no unless you're cutting corners by intentionally creating low-quality
work you're not an impostor.

Judging from the parameters you mentioned I presume you live in the Bay Area.
Keep in mind that's probably one of the most expensive places to live in the
whole world. A developer elsewhere might not earn half of what you make but he
or she probably also has a much lower cost of living.

Finally, everyone who has the opportunity to work as a developer in an
industrialised country certainly is very lucky but that doesn't mean you're
overpaid or your work doesn't matter.

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jklein11
>It's a common fallacy to think that people - regardless of income bracket -
are paid for their time and inconvenience rather than the value they create
with their work.

>Judging from the parameters you mentioned I presume you live in the Bay Area.
Keep in mind that's probably one of the most expensive places to live in the
whole world. A developer elsewhere might not earn half of what you make but he
or she probably also has a much lower cost of living.

This is a contradiction. Does working in an expensive location provide more
value to the business?

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BjoernKW
You're right. In principle this shouldn't matter, especially in today's world
where as a developer you can essentially work from anywhere.

However, many companies still - and often almost obsessively so - insist on a
specific location for work to happen. Ironically, this attitude seems to be
particularly widespread in Silicon Valley companies.

You could probably create the same objective value in another location. For
these companies however location seems to be an important component of their
value creation equation, which is why they have to pay a premium for it.

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AnimalMuppet
A developer can in fact be worth $200K without being a fraud. They have to
actually create value, though.

Is your team delivering value to the company (or, even better, to the
company's customers)? Are you doing your part to help the team? If so, you may
actually be worth that amount of money, without your employer being a fool,
and without you taking advantage of anyone. (If not, try to make it so that
you are.)

Note well: QA, for example, still delivers value to the company and the
customers. "Create value" is not the same as "deliver features".

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AngeloAnolin
That is not really the case for each and every developer though.

The premise is that we seem to see things from our own bubble - like for
example, in your case, you were lucky enough to land a great paying job and
you correlate the amount of work you do with the amount of compensation you
get and seem to think it is not balanced.

I know a lot of developers who are paid in the mercy of a whole lot of
economic factors, and who are probably doing a lot more things than what their
compensation pays them.

There's also the factor of the work itself - doing/making stuff that has never
been done before, pushing technology capability to the limits, negotiating
with your stakeholders, people and users. This is a whole ecosystem, where
stress and pressure are the norm and that we as developers needs to be
constantly learning and applying those learning every single day.

P.S. You might as well donate portions of your earnings to causes you believe
in. Or save up for the rainy days. Or build a business where you can provide
opportunities for others.

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taylodl
It's called a labor market. Currently the demand is outstripping the supply
(more demand for developers than there are developers) and so the cost of the
product (labor) is rising. The rising costs (wages) should encourage more
folks to become developers and thus stabilize, or even lower, the wages. But
as it turns out, it's not that easy to become a good developer so it's been
difficult to increase that supply to meet the demand and this has been the
case for forty years now - so I wouldn't worry about this being a "bubble"
that's about to burst.

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Powerofmene
In short, the market drives prices. Remember, it is about supply and demand.

Also you say, you have to close a few tasks, fix a few bugs, and make sure I
am not a jerk to teammates.....

Fixing a few bugs could make the company hundreds of thousands of dollars or
even millions, it could protect trade secrets or protect personal information,
it could make the jobs of others in the company faster or simply easier. It is
all a matter of perspective. And doing it while not being a jerk is a plus.

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PaulHoule
I don't see it that way.

When Walt Disney became the highest paid executive in the U.S. a reporter
asked him what he thought of that and he said "It's about time."

Many developers perceive they are underpaid, certainly many of us face
competition from people who get paid $35k a year in developing countries.

The deeper problem in the industry is a rabid antiprofessionalism that means,
among other things, you won't get anything consistent out of a $20k or $200k
developer.

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harrisreynolds
Every company is a software company now (some way better than others, but the
point stands). And there aren't nearly enough developers to fill all the jobs.
So there is a basic supply and demand answer here.

Other factors like the importance of very high levels of skill for companies
like Google make great developers even more valuable. Which gets you into the
six-figure incomes we currently are seeing.

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JSeymourATL
Some perspective: the average NBA Player makes $5M a year, arguably overpaid >
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeYmY83QXOk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeYmY83QXOk)

Relative to the bubble. The market has been long overdue for a correction.
Squirreling away cash is a smart play.

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saluki
Well I wouldn't say overpaid.

You know a lot more than you think you know.

You have more experience than you think.

Fix a few bugs probably takes way more skill and knowledge than you give
yourself credit for.

Software and the Web is an amazing tool and generates lots of value.

You have to skills and knowledge to build/improve it, that's amazing.

I'm not sure it's a bubble but enjoy the ride, nothing is forever.

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steven_braham
I think your mindset is a symptom of imposter syndrome. This is a common
problem for developers. It makes them think that they are unworthy of their
rewards or that most of their achievements are insignificant or fraudulent.

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owebmaster
Because a lot of people make billions with software so it's an easier lottery
ticket if you can afford it. You just happen to be part of a system that is
running outstanding well this beginning of century.

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sharemywin
Cause you probably live somewhere where the cost of living is astronomical and
by 50 you can't find a job because your skills are obsolete.

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k__
Maybe because we sell dreams?

Many people think they will get damn rich with their app idea, but not so many
can really build it.

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SirLJ
I am always feeling underpaid, so everything is supply and demand... enjoy the
ride while it lasts..

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burntrelish1273
0\. Automation.

1\. Owners earn much more money than in the past that they're not sharing with
ordinary workers.

