

Kinect by Microsoft Keeps You Entertained Hands Free - carterac
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/04/arts/television/04kinect.html?_r=2&hpw

======
sriramk
I'm a MSFT employee but you guys have to take my word that this is a purely
unbiased review. :)

I just played the Kinect all evening for the first time. And I'm still in
shock - that thing is magical, like the first time I played with the Wii,
flicked on an iPhone or got search results instantly from Google.

Few things blew me away

\- How intuitive the controls (or lack of thereof) are. You just 'do'. The Wii
was like this too but this felt more natural

\- Being able to talk to my Xbox. I've never felt voice recognition was ready
for mainstream. I was wrong - talking to my TV felt a bit like Star Trek
modulo the computer voice.

\- How much fun it was. My wife and I had as fun much goofing off by dancing
around and playing around as much as competing.

I can't wait to see more games for it.

~~~
henrikschroder
"How well doeth Xthboxth Kinect'th voith control handle thpeech impedimenth?"

~~~
lini
There will be a special "Igor" version for that. But yeah, I have bluetooth
voice integration in my car and I have a tough time trying to make the voice
commands work ("call", "setup", etc.), because I am not a native English
speaker and have an accent.

------
markbao
I want to see this hacked and be able to connected to my laptop so I can write
programs using the Kinect sensor as an input. Think about how wild it would be
to write software using a Kinect input as a sensor. For example, you could sit
there and wave your hand to move through your email or music or something.

I'm not the only one; Adafruit Industries has a $2,000 bounty for the first
Github repo submission that can grab input from the Kinect device and output
depth. [http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/11/04/the-open-kinect-
proj...](http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/11/04/the-open-kinect-project-the-
ok-prize-get-1000-bounty-for-kinect-for-xbox-360-open-source-drivers/)

~~~
andrewacove
I suspect that Microsoft would love to leverage the Kinect platform as a way
to reclaim relevance in mainstream computing. I'm sure that, with enough
success, they'll productize it beyond XBox.

I've thought for a long time that a successful Kinect would likely lead to a
Kinect-optimized version of Windows.

~~~
mahmud
_reclaim relevance in mainstream computing._

For a certain definition of "mainstream computing".

Since when is MS' platform a niche and its tools marginal? We just had two
front-page stories about google suing the U.S. government for its explicit
demand for MS technologies.

This is like saying "Toyota better work hard on autonomous vehicles to reclaim
relevance in mainstream auto-mobile industry."

~~~
andrewacove
Yea, I knew I'd get stung by this. Should I have gone with "consumer" ? Or
"mindshare" instead of "relevance" ?

What I intended to get across was that I think Microsoft would love to use
Kinect as a platform to recover some of its losses in the mobile, search, and
cloud computing spaces, essentially to establish it as the new Microsoft
platform to lock in users.

Not exactly a crystal clear explanation, admittedly.

~~~
mahmud
What you wanted to say is that MS is and has been uncool to developers and no
one would touch their shite unless coerced by bills or held captive by an
employer visa.

(no need to mince words)

Microsoft Sucks(TM) but they have never been good at, or even wanted, consumer
lock-in. Microsoft Sucks(TM) but they're not evil, not by a long shot, or at
least not good at it.

To us, developers, they're Useful Idiots[1] who do pro-developer things
inadvertently, while trying to be evil. Case in point, they made their entire
platform COM-enabled in order to ensure Office interop and "invite" people
into VB. Really, they had the Web flashing in bright neon and all the dotcoms
of the late 90s for omens, and all they thought was "yeah, the future is MS
Office, let's just make Windows super accessible" ..

What happened is that the entire MS platform became "callable" from other
stacks and people built their own stacks on top of MS'. Flash, Mozilla, Java,
Open Office, VMWare, etc. None of them could have existed if MS was
"competently evil" at locking down the win32 platform as Apple is at locking
down the iThing.

Really, Microsoft sucks at being evil so bad that they're actually benevolent.
If I was Roger Corman, shooting a cheap horror flick, I would yell at MS and
tell it to get its act together, or get back to Denny's for their shift (most
of Corman's lead actors were wait-staff); that's not a way for a proper
villain to behave. Truly, the Eric Cartman of bad guys.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot>

~~~
varjag
I see more and more people view Microsoft as a harmless, disoriented giant,
just like IBM. Thing is, both were actively evil in their heyday. They killed,
raped and pillaged until they become granddads and settled.

------
mjfern
I am hopeful that Kinect is a successful product for Microsoft, but I have
some questions.

The Nintendo Wii found success in the market, not solely because of its
simple, easy to use controls. In addition to the innovative Wii UI, Nintendo
launched a variety of family oriented games that took advantage of the Wii
controllers, it had a brand and bevy of characters that it could leverage that
resonated with families and kids (e.g., Mario), the Wii console was small and
quiet, and the Wii was priced well below the competition.

For Kinect to succeed in the market, Microsoft must introduce a variety of
complementary (and compelling) games, it needs to develop a collection of
characters and stories that resonate with target customers of the Kinect, and
it needs to carefully consider pricing, given that the price of the Xbox 360
plus Kinect (+ additional accessories) could overshoot the comfort level of a
majority of consumers, especially in view of the economic recession.

Ultimately, the success of Kinect hinges not only on the Kinect hardware but
also on Microsoft's ability to develop a coherent "Kinect strategy" that
includes games, characters/stories, branding and marketing, pricing, and so
forth. And a key issue is developing a "Kinect strategy" that does not
alienate Xbox 360's most important customers, which at present are hardcore
gamers. These are the gamers paying for Live and providing the Xbox 360 with
the highest (game) attach rate among 7th generation consoles.

~~~
Encosia
> For Kinect to succeed in the market, Microsoft must introduce a variety of
> complementary (and compelling) games, it needs to develop a collection of
> characters and stories that resonate with target customers of the Kinect,
> and it needs to carefully consider pricing, given that the price of the Xbox
> 360 plus Kinect (+ additional accessories) could overshoot the comfort level
> of a majority of consumers, especially in view of the economic recession.

Considering how much people continue to spend on the Rock Band accessories -
for _one_ game - I don't know that the Kinect's price tag is that significant.

~~~
chopsueyar
I purchased a Rockband set for 360 from Wal-Mart last Thanksgiving/Christmas
sale, brand new, with game, corded drum and mic, and corded guitar for $59.

YMMV.

------
makmanalp
I've actually had the chance to play with one of these firsthand, and I must
say, I'm quite impressed. The only basis for comparison I have is the wii.

Initially, there is some confusion as to what it is you're supposed to do but
after a minute of awkward movement you get the hang of it. This feels much
more natural than the wii, and the lack of controller is freeing. The full
body movement detection is fun and really encourages you to move around. On
the other hand, the sensitivity is not that high. It's okay with the casual
games it comes with, but I'd like to see some more examples of, say, shooters.

~~~
epochwolf
You could always give the player a plastic gun with tracking dots and a
trigger. :)

------
necubi
For dissenting opinions, check out Ars Technica's [1] and Engadget's [2]
reviews. Both are less enthusiastic, with Ars complaining that the lack of
buttons (compared to the Wiimote or Sony's Move) greatly limits gameplay
potential.

[1] [http://arstechnica.com/gaming/reviews/2010/11/buy-a-house-
cl...](http://arstechnica.com/gaming/reviews/2010/11/buy-a-house-clean-your-
floor-move-your-butt-ars-reviews-kinect.ars)

[2] [http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/04/kinect-for-
xbox-360-revie...](http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/04/kinect-for-
xbox-360-review/)

~~~
henrikschroder
More dissent also at Eurogamer:

[http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-11-04-kinect-
reviewed...](http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-11-04-kinect-reviewed-
review)

They bring up the point that you need quite a lot of room for the device to
work, you need 2,5m of clear space between the TV and the sofa for two
players. And if you don't have that much, don't buy the thing because it won't
work well for you.

------
pyre
Apparently if you try to create an open-source driver for this, Microsoft
thinks that it's a safety hazard....

    
    
      > But Microsoft isn't taking kindly to the bounty offer. "Microsoft does not
      > condone the modification of its products," a company spokesperson told
      > CNET. "With Kinect, Microsoft built in numerous hardware and software
      > safeguards designed to reduce the chances of product tampering. Microsoft
      > will continue to make advances in these types of safeguards and work
      > closely with law enforcement and product safety groups to keep Kinect
      > tamper-resistant."
    

'product safety groups?'

1: [http://www.boingboing.net/2010/11/04/2k-bounty-for-
freeop.ht...](http://www.boingboing.net/2010/11/04/2k-bounty-for-freeop.html)

2: [http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/11/04/the-open-kinect-
proj...](http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/11/04/the-open-kinect-project-the-
ok-prize-get-1000-bounty-for-kinect-for-xbox-360-open-source-drivers/)

3: <http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-20021836-52.html>

~~~
ghurlman
Lawyers. Sooner or later, someone will plug it in while it's open.

------
JesseAldridge
My roommate bought it and invited a bunch of people over. It's actually a lot
of fun. More than I thought it would be. Most people seemed hesitant to
play... probably because the majority of the games involve waving your arms
around like an idiot. It's not quite as bad as that infamous video suggests,
but it's still pretty bad.

The motion detection technology is really good. You walk around the room and
your avatar moves along with you. You scratch your cheek with your right hand
and the character on the screen makes the same general motion.

Voice recognition was mediocre. Had to repeat ourselves a few times, and
background noises seemed to screw it up.

Thumbs up, overall.

~~~
jonhendry
"Voice recognition was mediocre. Had to repeat ourselves a few times, and
background noises seemed to screw it up"

Since you're supposed to recalibrate the microphones if you move the furniture
in the room, I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of people moving around the
room could cause problems.

------
autarch
Kinect sounds like some impressive tech, but it doesn't really sound _fun_ to
me. Obviously I'm not the target audience, but I wonder how many people out
there want to play games in this manner. It might be a cool novelty, but is it
a lasting interaction paradigm?

~~~
AndrewS
I think plenty of people said the same thing about the Wii. It is fun so long
as games use the interaction as a constructive part of the game. There are
plenty of fun multiplayer games on the Wii that just wouldn't work with
traditional controllers.

~~~
autarch
I had a Wii for a while, and the motion control thing was fun at first, but it
wore itself out pretty quickly. I think the thing I appreciated most was the
ease of aiming when playing Metroid.

------
nlawalker
Kinect suffers from the same problem that all motion controls do: the
technology isn't there to make it really precise and low latency, and that's a
big problem for people who have been playing games for a long time and who
have come to expect that precision, even for casual games.

It doesn't matter if the games are casual or not - the games aren't fun to me
if I feel like I have to devote even a modicum of thought to compensating for
the control scheme, or if I feel like there's even a little bit of "luck"
involved. It's like how people complain that Mario Party isn't fun because you
don't really feel like your skill has much of a bearing on what's going on - I
doubt that most people care about being masters of Mario Party, but with even
a little bit of luck, it invalidates the experience. It's not about being
competitive, it's about the satisfaction of improving and applying a skill.
Sure, if I'm drunk and just waving my arms around and my avatar is doing the
same, of course it's fun, but without that precision, it's not a "game," it's
a "toy." Toys are fine, but I prefer games.

It's crazy to think that we've got these awesome ideas for motion controls and
some fairly impressive implementations that were unimaginable even a few years
ago, but no way to make them even as close as precise as the control pads,
buttons and joysticks that we've had for decades simply by virtue of the fact
that they rely on simple digital technology.

EDIT/ADD: What I'm excited for is when the year-long honeymoon period is over
and developers start moving beyond the obvious applications. I want to see
stuff like two player games where one player has a controller and the other is
using their arms to tilt the playfield or control something else, or a game
where you have to stand in front of the camera with a controller in your left
and and use your body and the stick at the same time.

------
mhb
Specs of interest from <http://www.primesense.com/?p=514>

Field of View (Horizontal, Vertical, Diagonal): 58° H, 45° V, 70° D

Depth image size: VGA (640x480)

Spatial x/y resolution (@ 2m distance from sensor): 3mm

Depth z resolution (@ 2m distance from sensor): 1cm

Maximum image throughput (frame rate): 60fps

Operation range: 0.8m - 3.5m

Color image size: UXGA (1600x1200)

Data interface: USB 2.0

Power supply: USB 2.0

Power consumption: 2.25W

Dimensions (Width x Height x Depth): 14cm x 3.5cm x 5cm

------
dave1619
My wife and I got this today and it's lots of fun. The motion sensing is
really incredible technology, and there could be lots of uses in the future.

------
tobtoh
So I guess if you combine Kinect with iOS touch/swipe gestures, you can get
the Minority Report interface (without the gloves)!

Not to mention that if Kinect can recognize your face well enough to log you
into Xbox Live, then those customized interactive wall adverts from Minority
Report can't be too far away either.

~~~
tassl
Even though the global idea sounds great, according to the sensors that they
have I don't think that such precision is possible. I am based only in
guesses, but with a normal camera, and CMOS sensor (for depth sense using a
infrared projector) that have not been calibrated, the software can be able to
determine different shapes (bodies) that are moving (background subtraction to
detect the velocity, for example) but is not able to have enough precision to
even distinguish the different fingers of a hand.

As I said I haven't played or used Kinetic, nor I know the software that is
running, but it seems to me that they are parameterizing estimated movements
and mapping them into the space of allowed movements of your "avatar".

~~~
jonhendry
I've seen a claim of 2 cm resolution.

------
cyanbane
I have been playing with one for the past 2-3 hours and one thing I am REALLY
impressed with is the level at which they have the voice recog. It may just be
lots of data they have analyzed from their car kits, but the voice recognition
is amazing (no training, multiple people, etc) and much better than I have
been witness to inside other auto systems and with Goog411.. As for the visual
component, the sensor is already able to pick up minor movements of the hands,
if they can get down to finger movements etc I could see this being a huge
helper in their auto realm (small distinct finger movement on the steering
wheel for channel changing/navigation, etc) . It is an amazing piece of
hardware.

------
grigy
Turns out the technology is not developed at Microsoft. They are using the
PrimeSense chip, which gives the 3D sense to Xbox. Details here:
<http://eceplayground.com/2010/09/18/how-xbox-kinetic-works>

~~~
varjag
The chip is just a sensor to get the earliest stage of scene decomposition
quick. There's tremendous algorithmic work to be done beyond that.

------
tocomment
Will they be relaesing 3rd person shooter/rpg games where your character makes
whatever movements you do? You could even walk in place to make him move.
Actually pick things up etc.

I think that would be amazing.

~~~
icegreentea
Unfortunately, kinect isn't sensitive enough to detect grasping. You'll notice
that kinect navigation, hitting a button relies of hovering your arm in place
as a bar fills (there are variations), but there's no 'poke' or 'detect fist'
there.

You can dream though.

------
InclinedPlane
Kinect is definitely disruptive. Which is all the more impressive considering
the Wii has been on the market for some time, yet Kinect is not just a Wii
motion control imitation (as the Playstation Move is), it's something similar
but very different.

It's probably too soon to tell how significant Kinect will end up being, it'll
probably be follow-on generations of Kinect games which will prove whether
it'll be a game changer or a dud.

------
tta
I almost thought this was going to be about Office 2011.

~~~
bayareaguy
I was hoping it was about <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1871608>

