Ask HN: Does one feel they are contributing positively to society? - moretai
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throwaayaya
I don't know what society is. I don't think there's been a society for me to
contribute to. All of us have our group of friends maybe, and our work life.
But the rampant individualism and abandonment of the family unit leads us to
no dialogue between peoples. Things just happen and we react to it. Go
accumulate money and take vacation. I can't remember the last time I've seen
more than three neighbors within a year time span. So no, I don't think I'm
contributing to society. I'm only a student, after all.

~~~
ElatedOwl
>But the rampant individualism and abandonment of the family unit leads us to
no dialogue between peoples.

It's not like that everywhere. I live in a midwest metropolitan area (~230k
people), when I walk passerbyers always say hi or wave. People are relatively
friendly by default. Yesterday an older lady I'd never met before told me
about the pace maker she had put in the Friday before.

I'm rambling, but if you desire a sense of community or whatever there are
parts of the US where this is very much a thing.

~~~
nicolashahn
I live in San Francisco. Grew up in the South Bay. Last month I took a
motorcycle trip up to Seattle along the California and Oregon coastline. I
took my time, stopped a lot along the way. I was shocked at how friendly and
inquisitive the people from the <5-digit-population towns were. Everyone was
polite, seemed genuinely interested in conversation with me (a lot of
questions about my motorcycle, but other topics too). Completely the opposite
of the urban/suburban areas I was used to. This began immediately outside the
greater Bay Area and let up only when going through medium sized towns or
larger. Portland and Seattle were much like being back in SF.

Anyways, I'm also rambling, but just wanted to add another piece of anecdotal
evidence to yours. It's almost enough to make me want to try living in one of
these towns for a while, which never really occurred to me before (at 25 it
seems like everyone I know wants to be as urban as possible).

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Pica_soO
Im working in automatization. So no! Im a wrecking ball to societys
foundation, im taking peoples jobs away or prevent those from existing in the
first place. I secretly wish this whole Ponzi scheme would come crashing down
to bury this nightmare.

I wish i could dress up in some delusional ideology, like others can, that
this is for some greater good and 72 virgins after the singularity hits, but
logic, that cruel mistress wont allow those too last.

~~~
samueloph
Automatization is one of the best contribution to society that can exit, i
can't wait to live in a world where we all acknowledge that not everyone needs
to work and we can focus on really important things like NOT reinventing the
wheel and spend life on useless jobs.

That is at least if everything (or almost) goes as planned and things like
universal income become a reality.

Also, i thought everyone from hackernews thought this.

~~~
logfromblammo
The benefits from automation still exist, even if currently the only way to
realize them at scale is to steal from the rich robot owners.

Thus, working to increase automation is still useful, because it is likely
that we will soon either tax the owners of automated capital more, or
economically disenfranchised people will have a bloody revolution, and the new
owners of the automated capital will be slightly more inclined to voluntarily
share for the next 70 years or so.

The end result is that mopping floors and cleaning toilets becomes a robot
job, and no human anywhere does it, freeing them up for tasks that actually
require human brainpower. I think everyone needs to work, but the BS jobs we
have been inventing are not fit for that purpose. Everyone needs to _do_ a
thing that is productive by the loosest definition and makes them happy. Like
jarring your own pickles. Or making an online comic with stick figures. Or
domesticating foxes. When freed of the requirement that people have to do work
to perform certain critical functions that keep civilization running, like
growing food and paving roads, people can instead put more effort into things
that are niche interests.

It might be playing video games for 12 hours a day. That's okay. You don't
need that guy to raise chickens for your dinner. But you might need him later,
when you decide to spend 4 hours every week to play a video game, and you
don't want to waste your time on one that is not fun, or too deep for that
level of time commitment. That guy will soon become an subject matter expert
on video games, and you can trust him to blow away the chaff, because he
_loves_ video games.

Some people still do the niche stuff even after working 40 hours or more in a
week. If you think about what they can do in their leisure time, just imagine
what they would accomplish if their hobby was their full time job.

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mezod
Thanks for bringing up this nice discussion.

My answer right now would be a timid yes. But in no way in an impactful way,
even to very few, so I still feel I need to work on this regard.

Now, I want to merge this topic with one that comes naturally to HN: startups.
I keep feeling like the projects that are for the good make no money, and that
the easy money is to be found in negative or maybe irrelevant solutions. I
know this is not 100% accurate, and that's why I keep trying to think of
projects I can pursue, make a living on, that feel just RIGHT. But hell is
this hard.

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FLGMwt
I struggle with this.

I work for a company which is owned by a big health insurance company and we
make consumer-facing applications. Our products have a varying degree of
public benefit from online insurance open enrollment (turbotax for benefits)
to provider transparency (find doctors and see how much common services cost).

In general, I'm glad I'm working on improving consumer experience in one of
the more stressful human experiences, but I know at the end of the day, I'm
still improving the bottom line of a huge company and enabling the propagation
of a broken system.

Having things like Juicero exist gives me a little bit of relative ethical
reprieve: "at least I'm not wasting a ton of money to make an elitist,
wasteful food fad product".

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dangom
I believe that simply treating others the way we'd like to be treated is a
positive contribution to society. Treating others with respect, and trying to
keep common places clean already goes a long way for society as a whole.

~~~
afoot
I guess sometimes it's the smallest of things that can make a genuine
difference.

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dm319
This is a such a great question. I find it fascinating that 'contributing
positively to society' is not necessarily related to; financial compensation,
legality or societal status.

Not implying it should of course, many of us don't have the option to choose
our jobs too easily. But some of us certainly are in a position to choose a
job which pays higher but has less moral standing.

My next door neighbour works for a pay-day loan company, and seems to be well
rewarded. I don't know if he considers this question. Another friend of mine
moved from accounting into private equity, with much higher pay. Similar to
the high-achieving doctors who go into cosmetic plastic surgery.

Is there any incentive to consider your contribution to society?

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cpjfox
Assuming of course you mean contributing positively...

I felt that way for dozen or so years I was in our Airforce, less about
fighting down under, more about helping out.

But then...

I left for money, now I have a fancy business card, a house, more cars than I
can drive at once and habits I couldn't have sustained in uniform, now if I'm
contributing, it's not positive, and sleep, it was easier before.

~~~
dontJudge
Spending your money on that stuff is contributing. By purchasing a house you
contributed to the housing workers. And contribute more property tax. You
supported the salaries of people in the automobile industry. You are literally
contributing by consuming.

Don't apologize for it. Every idea about society has been tried a dozen times
over. Capitalism has the best track record. Some of the worst hell holes on
earth had great intentions in the minds of their leaders.

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j2bax
It's a mixed bag for me. I work in children's entertainment and educational
apps. While I feel quality fun educational experiences on devices are
positive, I also feel like they are contributing to kids getting addicted to
these screens at a young age which concerns me deeply. I'm not really sure
where to go from here to address these concerns.

~~~
telebone_man
Out of curiosity, from someone in the education arena.. Would you think
augmented-reality style apps would be a step in the right direction?

I remember being told it would bring forward the 'outside world' to people
otherwise glued to their phones. But then, I drove past a pokemon go party the
other day and the only difference was they were all stood outside...

~~~
j2bax
I think AR and VR have incredible educational potential, but I don't know that
it will do anything to decrease screen addiction in children. It will likely
only increase it.

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JetDogRush
Yes! I'm the lead developer for the ground control software for the Mars
rovers. The missions are expanding the bounds of human knowledge, and doing my
job right means we get more/better science data back from the rovers!

~~~
FLGMwt
That's fantastic! Could I bother to ask if you write at all about it or if
your team has a blog or anything like that? I'm quite interested : )

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robin_reala
I did for the last couple of years, working in the public sector for GDS.
While personal circumstances changed and I’ve gone back to agency life again,
I’d recommend digital transformation of government services to anyone who’s a
bit burnt out on the steady diet of startups destined to fail and brochureware
sites. The USDS even advertise their open positions as ‘tours of duty’:
[https://www.usds.gov/join#tours-of-duty](https://www.usds.gov/join#tours-of-
duty)

------
jqbx_jason
I think there are a lot of cases where people (likely yourself) contribute
positively to society but don't realize it. There are so many facets to how
technology can interact with someone's life during some circumstance. Some of
these positive circumstances may not be obvious or frequent- but that doesn't
mean your efforts aren't worthwhile or that you shouldn't look at your work
from different angles and appreciate your positive contributions. IMO
affecting one stranger's life positively is worth celebrating.

Ex. I work on on a social music app[1] in my spare time. From my perspective
I'm just making it easy for devs to share music while they work: marginal
contribution to society at best. But a little while ago I got an email from a
father who thanked me for the building something which gave him the
opportunity to reconnect with his daughter across the world. Remembering nice
stories like that help keep me motivated and hopefully you can find some nice
stories in your line of work as well :).

[1] [https://www.jqbx.fm](https://www.jqbx.fm)

~~~
suff
It is true that contribution can often seem intangible. However, if you lower
the cost of goods, or increase productivity in any way, you have helped large
numbers of people. Repeat that for 20 years and you have probably helped a few
million, or if you are lucky a few hundred million people.

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Tomminn
It's funny. I have a philosophy that work at its core should be viewed a
generous act for society so work-wise that's all I've cared about doing for
years.

And yet, I've found it hard to actually contribute positive tangible things.
The only thing that philosophy has brought me is a kind of smugness about my
unnecessary poverty.

Honestly, the whole experience has given me quite a reverence for capitalism.
At it's best, it helps direct a human being toward a path of contribution.
There are problems[1] but I think the thing I've learnt is that the task of
finding and following through on something that _actually contributes_ to
society is hard, and the fact that capitalism makes it easy is kind of
amazing.[2] Left to your own devices you tend to massively underestimate the
difficulty of whatever scheme you come up with, and burnout/get demotivated
without others around you who are doing the similar work.

Ahh well, hopefully I figure how to properly do this "contribution" malarky in
the next ten years.

[1] Apart from avoiding externalities, the other major issue is that
capitalism serves dollar-weighted humans, and with the current wealth
distribution that is vastly different from serving humans.

[2] Find a job that isn't obviously evil. If you succeed, you're probably
contributing positively to society.

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makmanalp
I work in international development - studying why some developing countries
prosper, learning lessons from that, and seeing if it can be applied
elsewhere. We do a mix of theoretical paper-publishing and also small policy
engagements. Nothing _I_ do (data munging / backend / ops / web dev / bit of
data visualization) single handedly saves anyone or improves anything, but I
think it helps the people actually working on this stuff, so there's that.

------
occultist_throw
In a way, I am through my work. However it is primarily from doing tickets of
people complaining about $feature or $bug or $access_rights. It certainly
feels soul-sucking doing it. And most certainly does not _feel_ like positive
contributions. But I know that what I work on, many millions of people count
on in the end. And my hands are a small part of that.

In the grand stream of things, I've done more actionable and powerful work
outside of my job I attend 5 days a week. If I had more time, I could push
more innovation in many areas. The money would be nice as well. It's a hard
choice, balancing money and time.

I yearn for the days when we finally have UBI or something guaranteeing us the
rights to live without being coerced into selling our bodies and minds.
Because right now, I feel there's little between me selling my body and mind
and that of a prostitute selling theirs. I just don't do sex as work, so it's
somehow "better".

And having rights to live for everyone would allow me to work much more in
automation tech without the ethical qualms that I am putting many more people
out of work - and thusly depriving them of living. Automation tech can work
for a limited amount of people (now), or it can work for everyone.

Perhaps I'm just an idealist.

------
logfromblammo
That is heavily dependent on what you think "society" means.

Is it the entire human population of the Earth? Just the people of your own
nation? The people in your hometown? Just rich and influential people?

Most of the time, I'm contributing to my own nuclear family by exporting my
labor and importing other people's money. And that's "society" enough for me.

Other people can derive some ancillary benefit from what I do, but for the
most part, the majority of them have been quite rude to me for no readily
apparent reason beyond my general homeliness, so I stopped trying to satisfy
them a long time ago.

The only contributions I feel are valuable in the ultra-long term are
development in more efficient space launch technologies, space habitats, space
propulsion, and ecological remediation here on Earth. But I don't do any of
those things, so I don't value my own work very highly. I'm just workin' for
The Man, and he doesn't love anybody or help anyone except Himself.

------
Dayshine
Working in public health research, absolutely.

I don't save lives myself, but I help collect the data that's used to do so.

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thraxil
Spent the last 17 years working for a university, writing custom code to
support teaching, learning, and research programs. I've written code for
projects related to climate modelling, tracking polar ice movement, studying
traffic related air pollution, optimizing electrical grid construction in
developing countries, helping law practitioners understand collateral
consequences, improving counseling for domestic abuse victims, supporting HIV
counseling (deployed in a successful study in clinics in South Africa), and
teaching world leaders to detect and properly react to pre-genocidal warning
signs.

Currently looking for a new gig and wondering whether I'd be able work on
shitty adtech and still look at myself in the mirror.

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elevensies
Yes. I'm working to advance technology. Technology creates the economic
surplus that makes everything good possible, it is the reason the old aren't
starving and children aren't working the fields.

Also, I'm part of a country that has one of the highest standards of living in
human history which was built on immense toil over thousands of years by my
ancestors and millions of others, which only continues to exist based on
mutual support between myself and many others.

I may question the value of what I'm working on at the moment, but I don't
question the value of knowledge, technology, and the society that allows me to
pursue it.

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afoot
No.

Like many, I help in a number of small ways I'm sure, and perhaps I've even
made a big impact on a few lives for the better, but I can't help but think I
should be able to scale up and do more for a far, far greater number of
people.

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hacker93
Hell yes, Jacques Fresco and his project Venus definitely fit to this
category. They contributes by educating the world the ill effects of current
monetary system infers we all are circling our way slowly to destruction. He
calls for change to the resource based economy and envisions a great future.
It is not an Utopia as many think so. But it is feasible when we push our way
to it collectively.

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BetaCygni
Yes, at least I hope so. I've done my fair share of volunteer work, am
involved in politics, and at work we build software for high schools.

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protomyth
Well, yes. I am currently working at a Tribal community college. We're trying
to help the next generation get a start.

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m_ke
Yeah. I'm working on an app that helps people manage their diet (for weight
loss and dietary issues).

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d--b
Working for hedge fund here: nope, I don't feel like I am improving society in
any way.

~~~
FLGMwt
No judgement intended in asking, but does the contribution question factor
into you deciding to work for a hedge fund? If it does, what keeps you there?

I'm curious because I've had a few coworkers come from hedge funds and they
left for a lot of reasons.

~~~
d--b
Sure no problem. No the contribution question was left aside. I went to work
for a hedge fund because I wanted to live in NYC and go through the
immigration process easily (I'm French). It turned out that the people I work
with are very smart and super nice. So overall I don't feel like contributing
much, but I kind of sorted the money issue and I work on challenging problems
with a bunch of smart guys, so I feel fine.

~~~
FLGMwt
Thanks for the answer! That's great that you've found work and people you're
happy with. Best of luck to you.

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anovikov
Not really. I am doing custom software development, and it is clearly a zero
sum game.

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lightbyte
Not really. If I were to disappear forever the company I work for would easily
continue on with all current work with probably no noticeable change.

~~~
dx034
That can be a very good sign. People like to feel important but it's very
dangerous to be irreplaceable. Key man risk is often underestimated and can
kill companies.

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RightMillennial
Of course I do. I work, pay my taxes, donate some to charity and fundraisers,
and contribute to the economy as a consumer.

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tudorw
yes, I help individuals and small businesses build sensible web strategies and
mentoring where required, my clients are nice people running socially
conscious enterprises in interesting and progressive fields, that's positive,
for me anyway.

------
zie
There is a reason I work in public government, and it isn't the pay. :)

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jonkiddy
Yes. My job is to automate tasks at a cancer research institution.

------
hprotagonist
basics science researcher. Yes, but in an abstract sort of way.

~~~
fifnir
You are directly contributing to humanity's knowledge, I can't imagine many
way in which someone could be positively contributing more concretely !

(That's what I tell myself about my phd anyway)

~~~
hprotagonist
well, it's work that is several steps removed from directly impacting an
individual. Nobody's ever come to my lab to tell me I saved their life. (but
if our work bears fruit, everyone will have better hearing aids!)

I worked EMS in undergrad; none of my patients ever found me afterwards to
thank me, but we _probably_ saved a life or two. (narcan is magical)

it's a fun conversation to have over a few beers.

------
ameliaquining
I'm a software engineer at a very large adtech vendor.

The basic argument for display ads not being evil is that they give
journalists and other content creators a way to get paid for their work. A lot
of people, concerned about incentive distortion and other problems with ads,
would rather see this happen through alternative models like subscriptions or
microtransactions, but it's not clear to me that that can work. In particular,
the amount that publishers would have to charge in order for such models to be
revenue-competitive with ads far exceeds the average reader's willingness to
pay—which suggests that ads provide a significant consumer surplus.

The question that currently worries me a bit is where that surplus comes from.
One possibility is that the cost to consumers of being shown ads is much
greater than it appears, because ads strongly influence consumers' behavior in
ways that directly oppose their own interests. (Note that this is different
from the hypothesis that publishers manipulate readers' behavior to maximize
ad revenue; this is about the what advertisers do directly.) Obviously there's
some of this going on; the question is whether it's enough to negate the
consumer surplus. (Some also argue that there should be zero tolerance for
this, even if the consumer comes out ahead, because it undermines their
ability to navigate the tradeoffs in their own interest; I won't get into that
argument here.) I think this hypothesis can't yet be ruled out, and if true
certainly means that I'm making the world worse, but I'd like to see stronger
evidence for it before I believe it with much confidence. In particular, lots
of people who argue strongly for it seem to be basically motivated by their
own aesthetic revulsion towards ads, and rarely present much real evidence.

Another hypothesis is that advertisers are basically engaging in a dollar
auction against one another, paying more than they should for ad inventory
because if they don't their competitors will, and/or because they can't
measure the effectiveness of their ad spend well enough. (Obviously we try to
give advertisers the tools to measure and understand the effects of what
they're doing, but some argue that it still doesn't work well enough for that
purpose.) The proceeds from this dollar auction effectively wind up
subsidizing publishers, readers, and me. If this is true, then I think I'm
making society better, by moving wealth from things like consumer product
marketing (less socially valuable) to things like journalism and content
creation (more socially valuable). Such an arrangement may not be stable in
the long term, as greater competition increases selection pressures against
companies that waste money like this, but I'm okay with crossing that bridge
when I get there.

There are likely other possible explanations that I haven't thought of.

Two other relevant factors in defense of what I do: 1\. My job in particular
is significantly about defending users' interests. As HN readers are well
aware, there are a lot of ways that display ads these days just plain suck for
users, and much of what I work on is about finding ways to make that less
true. 2\. I donate a significant fraction of my salary to the most socially
valuable causes that I can find, and I intend to increase that amount a lot
more once I've got a financial safety cushion built up for myself.

I don't think I could do much more social good than this while still working
on pure technology. I do think I could do a lot more social good if I took a
job that involved significantly less programming and more of other kinds of
less-pleasant work that I'm worse at. I frequently feel bad about not doing
that, but it does seem reasonably likely that I'd burn out if I did.

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snambi
Too philosophical for HN...

~~~
tudorw
I was not aware of degrees of philosophising, is it not binary ?

