
Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says - imartin2k
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/business/pakistan-fake-pilot-intl-hnk/index.html
======
sitic
From the preliminary report:

'At 500 ft, the FDR indicates: landing gear retracted, slat/flap configuration
3, airspeed 220 knots IAS, descent rate 2000 ft/min. According to the FDR and
CVR recordings several warnings and alerts such as over-speed, landing gear
not down and ground proximity alerts were disregarded. The landing was
undertaken with landing gears retracted. The aircraft touched the runway
surface on its engines. Flight crew applied reverse engine power and initiated
a braking action. Both engines scrubbed the runway at various locations
causing damage to both of them. [...]'

I'm amazed that the airplane managed to become airborne again despite the
engines being dragged down the runway with reverse thrust selected.

~~~
VBprogrammer
The fact that they where around 80 knots faster than they should have been
probably helped a lot. That's a heck of a lot of excess energy.

~~~
craftinator
The excessive speed helped? Can you explain, I would imagine that going faster
would cause more engine damage while being dragged.

~~~
VBprogrammer
Helped is probably the wrong word. I mean't that the aircraft had a lot of
excess speed to get back into the air again, had it been at a normal approach
speed you would probably have slowed down enough that it wouldn't have been
possible to get it flying again.

------
teruakohatu
"PIA has grounded all its pilots who hold fake licenses, effective
immediately."

I would have thought anyone with a fake license was already grounded. It
sounds like they knew this was an issue and just looked the other way.

~~~
abdullahkhalids
It is a power issue. Everyone was aware, but the remaining pilots refused to
let the authorities do anything.

The only reason this is happening is because of Covid-19. No flights, so
pilots can't threaten to boycott flying. Let's see if the authorities have
enough political capital to follow through with firing them all.

~~~
SamuelAdams
Couldn't these companies just sponsor the pilots to complete their pilot
training program? If they really do need the pilots that badly, and the fake
pilots demonstrate an interest in the job, why not just pay for their flight
training directly and keep them grounded until that training is complete?

~~~
t0mas88
That training would probably fail. I've seen a few licensed pilots with a real
license from a country that isn't ICAO standard (and I'm going to guess
Pakistan is like that as well) sit in flight training. They didn't do very
well, lots of bad habits, not a very enthusiastic attitude towards a training
they think they don't need.

~~~
redis_mlc
> Couldn't these companies just sponsor the pilots to complete their pilot
> training program?

Well, that training costs close to $100,000, takes up to 2 years, the fake
pilots would have to pass several written, practical and medical tests.

> They didn't do very well

In Asian culture, staff only get promoted (one-way up) over time. So the
concept of failing one of your pilots is a hard sell for local examiners - it
would be scandalous behavior to flunk their sim ride.

S. Korea rotates in US CFIs until they find compliant ones that will endorse,
otherwise they're sent back to the US. Or they just use locals to rubber-stamp
logbooks.

One of the few recent US airline accidents was the SFO Asiana crash, which is
the poster child for "not doing very well." (although why SFO turns off their
ILS all the time is bizarre.)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214)

~~~
wishiwasoutside
"in Asian culture"

why are you using Korean anecdotes to explain a Pakistani problem?

~~~
1024core
Last I checked, Pakistan was in Asia....?

~~~
skissane
I think the point is, that Pakistan and Korea are culturally very different.
Different languages, different religions, different traditions, different
histories, etc. So claiming they both share "Asian culture" is rather dubious
since it isn't very clear what is this "Asian culture" which they allegedly
both share.

Some Asian countries do have some common cultural heritage. Japan and Korea
were both heavily influenced by Chinese culture, for example. But, Pakistan
and Korea, what common cultural heritage do they have?

~~~
selimthegrim
Well to be fair, S Korea did copy Pakistan’s five year economic plan in the
sixties.

------
yingw787
Older article, but apparently Pakistan carts its nuclear weapons around in
regular delivery vans: [https://www.wired.com/2011/11/pakistan-nukes-delivery-
vans/](https://www.wired.com/2011/11/pakistan-nukes-delivery-vans/)

I personally think this is a bad idea.

~~~
walrus01
It's not a completely illogical approach. An armored convoy stands out like a
sore thumb in Rawalpindi. An ordinary slightly beat up, 6-8 year old Suzuki
Bolan does not. Maybe send out a few decoy high security vehicles with
uniformed crews going in a few different directions, and then send out the
Bolan going elsewhere.

Bolan:
[https://www.google.com/search?q=suzuki+bolan&client=ubuntu&h...](https://www.google.com/search?q=suzuki+bolan&client=ubuntu&hs=KEu&channel=fs&sxsrf=ALeKk02P_bWoqZRjBByUP7SnTCmnTSXJwA:1593107959045&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiT4fLPxZ3qAhXQv54KHa_XBrsQ_AUoAXoECEsQAw&biw=1524&bih=1451)

~~~
haram_masala
If an armored convoy is not enough to protect your nuclear weapons, then you
have an entirely different problem that needs solving first.

~~~
ceejayoz
> If an armored convoy is not enough to protect your nuclear weapons...

The concern appears to be, at least partially, "the Americans will watch the
convoys via satellite and know where we've got them all stored".

~~~
seppin
Considering the article it looks like they know either way.

~~~
ceejayoz
The idea is not perfect secrecy, but plausible "we might have one more than
you think you know about" that matters.

------
seesawtron
On a smaller but more widespread scale is the issue of fake licenses for
driving automobiles. It is common knowledge how you can get these licenses
easily in "some" (similar) countries without ever giving a driving test and/or
going through any sort of written exam where you have to go through the rules
of the road.

Some argue that they are only endangering their own lives on the road but one
can see how that is complete BS when you are on the road and come across such
drivers.

If people were put through an extremely arduous journey to get their driving
licenses with the possibility of them being taken away when you break a
certain degree of rules, people would have a strong motivation to not be
negligent on the road.

~~~
throwaway0a5e
Adding big hoops to jump through and lots of ways to lose the ability to
legally do something that is more or less required to be a functioning member
of society in many places does not seem wise to me. People wouldn't be
breaking the law in order to drive if being able to drive wasn't a really big
deal.

~~~
albntomat0
I understand the point you're trying to make, but being given the ability to
pilot a multi-ton vehicle at 70+ mph clearly needs testing requirements. They
needn't be overly burdensome, but absolutely need to consistently apply. If
someone has to search out a place with no literally requirements, as the
parent comment states, they really should not be driving.

------
rwc
Start at the 4 minute mark here:

[https://youtu.be/oUOn6FrDPwg?t=240](https://youtu.be/oUOn6FrDPwg?t=240)

Infuriating series of events. It's not simply a matter of pilot error, it's
criminal negligence.

~~~
bayesianbot
There's an updated video from the same channel:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO5rXxJRmf4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO5rXxJRmf4)

I'd start at 4:50.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Why doesn't ATC demand they come in to line, the copilot didn't appear to
explain the very high approach (7000ft when they should be 3000ft) ... is
there a benefit to it??

First thing I learnt on a flight sim: slow down or you can't extend gear.

Is the co-pilot allowed to smash the pilot in the face and take over when they
realise they're ignoring basic instructions?

~~~
tialaramex
They're both pilots, or, if you want to put it that way, both co-pilots. The
ranks are typically "Captain" and "First officer" and what _ought_ to matter
in a well-trained team is Pilot Flying versus Pilot Monitoring (sometimes
other phrasing is used but that name scheme is pretty clear what's happening).

It takes explicit training to overcome a human tendency to defer, and that
means training for all crew and especially cockpit crew. This is called Crew
Resource Management and it involves learning interpersonal skills that enable
the team to prevent individual human errors from having grave consequences.

CRM is most often important in the cockpit, in this example to get the pilot
flying the plane to agree that this approach is bad and they need to try a
fresh approach.

But CRM extends beyond the cockpit because in some incidents it's vital to
remember that the rest of the crew are experts too, just not in flying a
plane.

~~~
numpad0
It took me too long to get this so I’ll leave it here:

Colloquially we call all aviator people as “pilots” but technically the person
on the left seat is Captain and to the right is First Officer/Pilot/Co-Pilot.

Like on marine vessels, the original idea is that the captain has the full
authority to his ship and his first officer steers it under his order.

That extra hierarchy lead to several accidents so newer concepts such as PM/PF
or CRM rules were conceived, but as far as terminologies go that’s what
captain/officer stands for.

------
andrewksl
I'm genuinely, in a completely non-judgmental way, interested to understand
what systemic forces lead to such a staggeringly high percentage of this brand
of fraud.

~~~
kbash9
I grew up in Pakistan. Simply put, this is due to a culture of nepotism and
corruption.

There are thousands of credentialed pilots but very few pilot jobs in
Pakistan. A job with the PIA is highly coveted and ensures life-long financial
security and social status (this perhaps explains the overconfidence of the
pilots when dealing with ATC). These jobs are usually handed out to people who
have the right connections with the right people in power. Some of these
candidates with the right connections only needs one of those thousands of
desperate licensed candidates to sit in an exam for them. PIA is also said to
have thousands of ground staff hired as favors by the ruling politicians all
around the world.

Also worth mentioning that it wasn't always like this - pilots and executives
from PIA were behind the launch of Emirates which is one of the most
successful airlines in the world. So it is really a sad story of decay and is
a representation of the deterioration in other parts of the country's society.

When the pilots fail to lower the landing gear, perhaps it is time to shut
down the state-run airline that runs on a huge loss and serves the top one
percent of the most poor populations in the world.

------
BurningFrog
Maybe I'm weird, but my first thought is that this is a great opportunity to
compare accident rates between licenced and unlicenced pilots.

------
tw1912112
The one thing I have noticed about the PIA air crash is the effort some people
have put into trying to explain the crash. Some of them have simulated the
whole trip! It's quite depressing, especially since the errors are quite
bizzare and the plane crashed into a residential area but thankfully no
casualties in the areas.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUOn6FrDPwg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUOn6FrDPwg)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM9ZrliDkNA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM9ZrliDkNA)

~~~
kayfox
One ground fatality and 7 ground injuries, so not good, but not horrifying.

~~~
tw1912112
oh wow, ok, didn't know that there was one fatality.

------
tux1968
The fact that the landing gear lever was pushed down into the extended
position, and then the plane decided not to deploy the landing gear because of
the overspeed issue is a horrible UI.

The lever should refuse to budge unless moving it will in fact deploy the
landing gear. These pilots are horrible, but that doesn't mean we can't
improve the controls still.

~~~
anon102010
Uh? The UI was giving them plenty of warnings and alerts. They have supposedly
been trained thoroughly on all of this.

~~~
tux1968
They were distracted. Why on earth would you object to the idea of better
feedback? If the lever is locked until the plane is willing to engage the
landing gear, it's more safe than the current UI.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Shouldn't it be more like you get rumble feedback and the stick pushes back
against you, hard, if there's an overspeed warning? But if the stick is pushed
again, all the way, requiring considerable manual force, then landing gear
extension is attempted?

Why do I say this? Well then the pilot has autonomy, if the overspeed warning
is an error, or you have a problem reducing speed you can still attempt to fly
the aircraft?

I mean sure, there'll be a speed at which gear extension just causes a crash,
but there's also presumably mid-ground.??

Edit: total armchair aero engineering it; also in this case it might just have
caused a problem at greater altitude ... but then at least there's time to
correct things.

~~~
qtplatypus
A stick shaker for over speed on the landing gear lever (much like the stick
shaker for stalls) seems a good idea.

------
yalogin
This is quite scary actually, something I didn’t think would happen. I can see
people faking engineering degrees or even medicine as they can then try to
evade all work and get away by relying on the team. Pilot is not that, they
have to fly it and they kill themselves too if things go wrong.

~~~
kakwa_
The Pakistani situation is actually not unique.

There are precedents, for example:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mexico_City_Learjet_crash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mexico_City_Learjet_crash)

A Mexican government Learjet plane carrying the Secretary of the Interior
crashed in Mexico city due to a mishandling of the landing approach by the
pilots (they flew to close to a 767 and got blown away by wake turbulence).

The pilots were in fact not qualified, and in fact got fake licenses to
operate the Learjet from corrupt flying schools.

> Pilot Martín Olíva and co-pilot Álvaro Sánchez, were not certified to
> operate the Learjet 45. The investigation concluded that both pilots had
> received fraudulent certifications: Captain Olíva lied about the number of
> training flights he had made, and had issues on the few training flights he
> did complete, while Captain Sánchez lied about being a Learjet 45
> instructor. Both men had taken advantage of a corrupt system to get false
> training documents and some unsigned Learjet 45 certification forms from
> their flight schools. These revelations led Mexican authorities to suspend
> the licences of both flight schools.

~~~
easytiger
Also in SA: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-
africa-47420515](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-47420515)

------
sriram_malhar
I heard this anecdote in India, and I'm not sure if it is apocryphal. There
was a small airline flying turboprops to service a Himalayan region. Someone
asked whether it was safe to fly these planes and the response was as
hilarious as it was scary: "Yes, sir. It is very safe. They used to have 11
planes, 10 of them crashed and now they are really really careful with the one
left" :)

~~~
umeshunni
Reminds me of a story I was told while learning how to design experiments and
a/b tests.

In World War 2, some company was experimenting with the kind of material to
use for combat aircraft wings. When they did their initial trials, they saw
that the planes coated with the new material came back with more bullet holes.
Off hand, that would seem like a reason to dismiss the new material. But,
digging into the data, they realized that planes with the old material were
actually crashing when they got their first bullet hole and the planes that
were making it back, even with bullet holes, all were coated with the new
material.

~~~
ardy42
I think that account gets it a bit wrong. Here's what Wikipedia has:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias#In_the_milit...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias#In_the_military)

> During World War II, the statistician Abraham Wald took survivorship bias
> into his calculations when considering how to minimize bomber losses to
> enemy fire.[10] The Statistical Research Group (SRG) at Columbia University,
> which Wald was a part of, examined the damage done to aircraft that had
> returned from missions and recommended adding armor to the areas that showed
> the least damage, based on his reasoning. This contradicted the US
> military’s conclusions that the most-hit areas of the plane needed
> additional armor.[11][12][13] Wald noted that the military only considered
> the aircraft that had survived their missions; any bombers which had been
> shot down or otherwise lost had logically also been rendered unavailable for
> assessment. The holes in the returning aircraft, then, represented areas
> where a bomber could take damage and still return home safely. Thus, Wald
> proposed that the Navy reinforce areas where the returning aircraft were
> unscathed[10]:88, since those were the areas that, if hit, would cause the
> plane to be lost. His work is considered seminal in the then-nascent
> discipline of operational research.[14]

~~~
ringshall
That's coincidental; according to Wikipedia, Wald and his wife perished in a
plane crash in India.

------
alkonaut
You'd assume that licenses are centrally managed, and always given out by
authorities with good credentials that are hooked to the central database, and
that this becomes even more true the "higher up" you get, e.g. for
certifications on bigger planes.

------
thev4lley
I don't think most people appreciate the level of regulation that ensures
safety and quality of life in Western countries. Go to many countries outside
of that spectrum and you may still see beautiful architecture and more. Now
did the team that worked on that project have the necessary experience to
drive a safe and long lasting solution? Does the concrete and steel used
follow good standards? This means that it may not have critical structural
problems today, but in 5 to 10 years, you may have to reconsider your
infrastructure. By doing shoddy work, you have a higher rate of catastrophic
failure, larger carbon footprint and many other issues.

~~~
awakeasleep
I believe regulation is an essential tool for society, but it is not the whole
story- morality plays as large a part.

Once the regulation is set, it can easily be undermined. BPA was banned by
regulation, so industry developed analogue chemicals with the same properties
and began using them.

Certain aspects of concrete & steel are regulated, so unethical effort goes
into subverting the idea of the law while following the letter. Or they start
sourcing the steel from outside the jurisdiction of the regulation (eg
radioactive material is disposed of in China by mixing with steel made for
export [https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/the-growing-
global...](https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/the-growing-global-
threat-of-radioactive-scrap-metal/))

Not trying to be disagreeable, it's just a thought that has been bothering me.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
I used to work in a very process-heavy industry: control software for Medical
Devices. People would ask about the benefits of following a rigorous process
and my answer was always the same: Process sets a minimum standard, but unless
people believe in producing a quality product, that minimum is all you'll ever
get.

~~~
brnt
Oof, that hit close to home. In fact, even when people want to create a
quality product, management will find someone who'll just do the minimum
faster and for less.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Which is exactly why any Quality initiative has to be supported by management,
or it's a waste of time.

------
m3h
A better coverage of this news and the initial report presented by the
aviation minister for the PIA accident can be found here:

[https://www.dawn.com/news/1564911/initial-report-finds-
human...](https://www.dawn.com/news/1564911/initial-report-finds-human-error-
on-part-of-pilots-atc-officials-in-pia-crash-aviation-minister)

------
numpad0
The use of the word “fake” is misleading, they seem to mean genuine
certificates issued illegally, not downright Photoshop’d documents.

~~~
emiliobumachar
I disagree. Paying someone else to take an exam in one's place definitely
makes the resulting license fake, and definitely makes it not genuine. They
just used a different process than Photoshop to produce the false document.

Semantics. I must disclose that English is not my first language.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Yeah, they're genuine licenses obtained by deception. Not fake licenses.

Perhaps aeroplane manufacturers should have a "pilot test" when booting up ...

------
ketanmaheshwari
They also let passengers stand in a flight once:
[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/pakistan-pia-
probes-s...](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/pakistan-pia-probes-
standing-passengers-incident-170225201715193.html)

------
danielschonfeld
A better question to ask is how many of those pilots have progressed in their
careers and moved on flying as captains for other world airlines. Having based
their privileges on fake foundations.

This problem is ripe in aviation and it’s all over the world except mostly for
western countries even though some Eastern Europeans countries have some
variation of this.

------
amingilani
Almost every time I see Pakistan on the first page it's because of something
bad. Also not surprising because almost every time I submit something about
tech related to Pakistan myself it's usually horrifying. It just makes me sad.
Hoping it'll be better at some point.

------
737min
Professional and academic credentials in developing countries are often
unreliable or outright fake. If this happend with pilot licenses, imagine CS
degrees or medical schoold... Any immigration and H1B reform will need to
address this while being fair and free of prejudice.

~~~
nradov
The US doesn't accept medical degrees from Pakistan, or most other countries
either. Immigrant doctors have to redo much of their training which is why
many of them choose to switch careers instead.

~~~
selimthegrim
Weird, I’m pretty sure I’ve run into residents here from India and Pakistan.
What you mean is that they have to take USMLE and have to redo their
residencies.

------
rjsw
TBF, Pilots not being qualified to fly commercially happens elsewhere too [1].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_English_Channel_Piper_PA-...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_English_Channel_Piper_PA-46_crash)

~~~
ciarannolan
Does it happen at a rate of 30% of pilots not even taking the certification
test elsewhere?

------
Neoxy
Whoa.. I heard the pilots were disusing Corona. how the license thing
connected to license 'to kill'?

------
elchin
Yet he doesn't do anything about it? Hmm...

~~~
hugh-avherald
They have been grounded.

------
camelCaseCamel
This is pretty racist not to mention Islamophobic.

~~~
dang
Trolling HN will get your main account banned as well, so please don't do this
any more.

------
catalogia
Unlicensed pilots are very common in Alaska. There's an old joke that the FAA
hopes to get at least 50% of the pilots in Alaska properly licensed.

~~~
8ytecoder
Alaska the state or Alaska Airlines?

~~~
excerionsforte
Commercial pilot license is required for any pilot looking to fly for a
business operating aircraft for a profit.

~~~
thrill
This gets frequently abused in the US. Some of the abuse seems trivial on the
surface - for example a friend can't legally pay you to fly him to a meeting
far enough away to make driving undesirable on a clear pleasant day, even
though you both frequently fly together personally on the weekends. However,
there's no legal surprises on the FAA regulations and no excuse that a pilot
can make that it seemed ok, as the regulations are quite clear that any
compensation of any kind is illegal without holding a commercial certificate.

~~~
ryandrake
14 CFR 61.113 (c) allows the passenger to compensate the pilot so long as the
pilot is not paying less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses.

~~~
redis_mlc
No, there's many more restrictions than that, including common purpose, and
not being a scheduled flight.

------
econcon
Yea how are they even flying? Haven't read the article but I guess it's one of
those things where the operator had the skills but isn't getting official
stamp from some institution because of some agenda of creating artificial
shortage or asking for money for stamp?

These guys probably know how to fly right? Is flying very small part of
overall pilot certification?

~~~
rwc
"Haven't read the article" That's your problem right there.

~~~
avgDev
At least his honest and it comes up in the opening statement, therefore, it
can be ignored :).

