
The Drug Cartels' IT Guy - jgrahamc
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/radio-silence
======
Animats
That article is mostly a rehash of a 2011 NPR article.[1] More technical
information is available in Popular Science (I know, bad source) [2]. Here's a
video of some captured gear.[3]

From the video and descriptions, it looks like they're using walkie talkies
with repeaters, like a police radio system. They used some minimal scrambling,
just enough to prevent people with scanners from listening in. That's cheap,
easily available gear.

[1] [http://www.npr.org/2011/12/09/143442365/mexico-busts-drug-
ca...](http://www.npr.org/2011/12/09/143442365/mexico-busts-drug-cartels-
private-phone-networks) [2] [http://www.popsci.com/article/technology/radio-
tecnico-how-z...](http://www.popsci.com/article/technology/radio-tecnico-how-
zetas-cartel-took-over-mexico-walkie-talkies) [3]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT9-dDxkbJc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT9-dDxkbJc)

------
ufmace
I think the interesting question here is to what extent are the personnel
responsible for building this comm infrastructure kidnapped/enslaved/coerced
versus being there mostly voluntarily. There's some merit to the argument that
it's much riskier and probably more expensive for the cartels to kidnap and
hold these people than to pay them enough to work voluntarily. The main
argument against that is how many people have disappeared with no contact with
their families, and that the families aren't getting any money. But then, we
don't know where these people are, what they're doing, and what degree, if
any, of coercion is being applied.

The wild card is the Governments' unwillingness to even acknowledge the
problem. That suggests that it embarrasses them. What's more embarrassing to
the government, though? That the cartels might be powerful enough to kidnap
people at will all over their country? Doesn't sound particularly newsworthy
or worthy of suppression, considering what else is going on there. How about
the extent to which upper-middle class educated people are willingly working
with the cartels to build high-end infrastructure? I could see that being very
embarrassing indeed. It makes it seem like the cartels are inching closer to
being the legitimate government of major parts of the country. That sounds
much more like something worth denying and suppressing. I have no idea if
there's any truth to it, but the motives seem to line up in that direction.

~~~
smacktoward
In the case of the cartels there's varying degrees of "voluntarily." Mexican
and Colombian cartels have long been able to coerce "voluntary" cooperation
from people they need by posing them a choice: _plata o plomo_ , "silver or
lead." In other words, you can cooperate with the cartel and be rewarded with
cash, or not cooperate and be "rewarded" with bullets. It's your choice! But
it's not much of a choice, of course.

What's interesting here (to me, anyway) is the need to physically kidnap and
hold the person, rather than just coercing the behavior the cartels want via
the _plata o plomo_ approach. The cartels certainly have enough _plata_ to
hire talent, if it's needed; and once hired, the threat of the _plomo_ should
keep them quiet, right? So what would the cartel gain by enslaving the person?
I'm not sure.

~~~
IndianAstronaut
> plata o plomo, "silver or lead."

Cartels have stopped this. Now there is simply no reward. It is simply just
lead. This is especially true with the ultra-violent Zetas cartel where you
pay them and do their bidding so that they don't kill you.

The brutality of the Zetas knows no end. All this just a few hours drive from
the US.

[https://news.vice.com/article/how-a-mexican-cartel-
demolishe...](https://news.vice.com/article/how-a-mexican-cartel-demolished-a-
town-incinerated-hundreds-of-victims-and-got-away-with-it)

~~~
MichaelGG
But _why_ are they so uncivilized? The main mission, supplying medicines in
the face of oppressive government regulations, is a noble one, one that people
can get behind. Just look how the alcohol gangsters of the 20s are idolized.

If they were focused on the core mission of delivering and only killing people
as needed, they'd probably have a stack of resumes metres deep. I'm sure Silk
Road had its pick of candidates if it needed to hire for a sysadmin position.
And you can always remind people you'll kill their families if they snitch.

Is it just a shitty cultural thing? Or is there an actual plan behind being
savages and basically making the entire world think they're just untamed
animals?

~~~
wtbob
> The main mission, supplying medicines in the face of oppressive government
> regulations, is a noble one, one that people can get behind.

I think drug prohibition is stupid and wicked, but let's be honest: this is
not about supplying medicine to patients but cocaine to users. That use should
be lawful, but it's certainly no noble mission.

> Or is there an actual plan behind being savages and basically making the
> entire world think they're just untamed animals?

Every law is backed up by fear of violence. The cartels can't go to a
legitimate court to enforce their contracts and settle their disputes, so they
fall back on raw force. Over time, the sort of people who enjoy that sort of
work do better than those who don't. There are evil people in the world who
enjoy inflicting pain and suffering, and I daresay they do very well in such
organisations.

Genghis Khan annihilated cities which didn't cooperate with him; the Turks
raped and murdered for three decades when they conquered Constantinople; what
the Russians did in Berlin isn't fit to be printed; what happened in Allende
is really no different.

~~~
MichaelGG
> medicine to patients but cocaine to users ... no noble mission

I wouldn't say it's ignoble, though you're right, their case would be far
stronger if they were supplying a more varied product.

Your explanation of violence doesn't explain why other groups get by with less
violence, and otherwise appear to be respectable members of society. Look at a
Chicago Outfit's massacre[1] and the Zeta's[2].

I know, I'm abusing the word massacre, but in one case, notoriety is because
of the killing of a few rival criminals. In the Zetas case, they just rape,
torture, and murder hundreds of innocent civilians.

That seems very shortsighted and not beneficial to business. Unless it's a
tactic to raise the barrier to entry by making the whole area just terrible to
work in, overall.

1:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Valentine%27s_Day_Massacr...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Valentine%27s_Day_Massacre)
2:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_San_Fernando_massacre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_San_Fernando_massacre)

~~~
dragonwriter
> In the Zetas case, they just rape, torture, and murder hundreds of innocent
> civilians.

> That seems very shortsighted and not beneficial to business.

An organized crime group that engages in this kind of behavior may, within a
reasonable approximation, be rationally focused on maximizing their own
experienced utility [0], but even if they are, their utility function may not
weight financial returns as highly as, say, yours does.

[0] I should emphasize that I am not _at all_ taking the position that this
_is_ the case.

------
huherto
Not only IT professionals.

My family knew a young man who did contracting work on a small town. Very hard
working. They took him, and no one has heard about him ever since. The rumor
is that they use them to build the facilities they need. He left a young wife
with small children. Really tragic.

------
_cudgel
At some point, you'd think we'd have the sense to legalize all these
substances that the cartels trade in to cut crime and drain them of their
money and power.

~~~
a3n
Too late. As the article says, they're into much more than drugs now. The
problem is no longer drugs, it's cartels.

~~~
MichaelGG
Yeah, like Google is into much more than advertising now. Taking out drug
money would be a massive crimp in their style. In fact, I'd be surprised if it
wouldn't pretty much destroy their style, and suggestions to the contrary are
just given by the government to continue the drug war.

~~~
btian
Should we also legalize protection racket, human trafficking, kidnapping,
contract killing?

~~~
click170
No, of course not. But choosing to smoke a joint is a victimless crime, as is
choosing to abuse cocaine or any other substance. Most of the problems with
these substances are caused by the fact that they are illegal and are forced
into black markets.

We could discuss the social harms of substance abuse all evening, but at the
end of the day I'm not harming anyone when I take a puff in the comfort of my
own home.

~~~
a3n
> But choosing to smoke a joint is a victimless crime,

Well, except for all the murder involved in growing and shipping it. But
except for that, yeah. I guess if you live in a legal or medical state it's
possible to get murder-free pot. But I haven't smoked pot for 25 years for
this and a small handful of other reasons.

~~~
click170
> except for all the murder involved in growing and shipping it

Those are artifacts of it _being illegal_ , if it was legal those wouldn't be
problems.

------
S_A_P
My first thought about the enslavement is that the threat of killing their
family would be a powerful disincentive to turn on the cartel. Either way this
is tragic, I feel for all those affected by this.

~~~
wahsd
I also don't agree with the sentiment that the intellect of these people would
lead them to turn the tables on their captors. Are you really going to risk
having your whole family eradicated? I think it would only take a couple
surveillance pictures of all of their family members for them to cooperate
even if they realize there is no way they will make it out alive.

~~~
whyaduck
Yes - Bunker's commentary (he's the War College professor) seems overly
generalized and a bit weird. "Prima donna's"? How does he know know "hacker
types" don't function well in captivity? Was there a study?

------
rwallace
Have any of the missing people ever been seen alive again? This article and
the previous one on the topic posted here both seem to be saying no, the
mortality rate is one hundred percent. If that's true, it suggests a personal
rule for anyone living in or visiting that area: if the cartels come for you,
fight to the death on the spot rather than let yourself be taken.

~~~
smeyer
Assuming you only care about your own life. If the two alternatives are (1) be
kidnapped, do some work, then murdered vs (2) fight to the death and have your
family killed in retaliation, I could see how your suggested personal rule
might be suboptimal for a lot of people living in that area.

~~~
rwallace
True enough. Is that the actual state of affairs?

~~~
jpatokal
Yes.

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mexican-militiaman-
and-h...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mexican-militiaman-and-his-
family-killed-after-speaking-
out/2014/06/27/16072be6-3dbb-4076-8da8-9ed0a3c8ccda_story.html)

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375578/Drug-
cartels...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375578/Drug-cartels-
murder-children-scare-rival-gangs-Mexico.html)

------
grecy
These "be afraid of the outside world" articles are getting less and less
subtle.

> _It’s a story that’s common across Mexico. People vanish_

Statements like that are so misleading.

More people are killed in NYC and Chicago than Mexico city, but you never see
headlines about that.

~~~
hondje
No, its not misleading. These dudes do NOT fuck around.

I live in Pueblo, Colorado. To be exact, I live in the East Side in whats
known as a barrio/ghetto/hood. If you google Fearnowville Colorado you'll see
my home. I also have a LOT of experience in hospitality and F&B and have had
regular personal contact with a wide variety of immigrants. My homie Santos is
an illegal from Neuvo Leon. Marianna grew up in Sonora. When I was 18 I went
to prison for drug charges and made real friendships with mexican and american
criminals of all stripes. I learned about ejidos, jesus malverde, mis
animales, and I am intelligent. Now don't get me wrong, I'm clean and totally
legit. I got kids and I don't roll with gangsters. I am respected by my peers
and I earned that respect. So that's where I'm coming from. Now I gotta say
you don't know much more about being a criminal than I do about Haskell.
People DO disappear, and it happens a LOT. Here and there both. Here in my
small southwestern town of 100,000 I can think of multiple black baggings....
once in the parking lot of a walmart, even. I know there's stats about Mexico
DF that look good, but you believe the Mexican feds?

Personal anecdote: my wifes grandpa was a man named Jan Bonte. He was born in
.dk, his dad was killed by nazis and he was placed in a camp. He immigrated
after the war, first to .nl where he met and married his wife, and then to the
US. They had a family in Colorado and after a late-life divorce he moved to
Kino in the Sonoran desert for winters and came back to Colorado for summers.
Because he routinely crossed the border he was ordered to mule something, and
he declined. After a month of no contact we received news he died. We went to
clean his remains from his house, which was gruesome after spending October in
the sonoran heat after being chopped up by an axe.

Day 1 a duece n half came up with a gaggle of Mexican troops. Green uniforms,
M-16s, idk if they were cops or 'cops' or what, but they gave us 3 days to
gtfo.

Day 2, we picked up his ashes and had a small ceremony. He had local friends,
who told us what happened and who did it.

Day 3, we were on the road

I put so many personal details because seriously: dox it if you'd like. You'll
see Jan isn't counted among the victims of the drug war but it doesn't matter.
The important thing is "this is how it is" and to hope it never happens to me
or mine. Aqui hubo una mano negra

I don't have a point at all, I just feel I see/know an entirely different
world from the average HN poster. You see alarmists clutching pearls and
spreading tales - part of a bigger trend to spread fear and exagerate dangers.
I see people I know and love suffer....and hope that black hand doesn't visit
me.

~~~
gaelenh
So much truth to this. Hang out with enough Mexican immigrants in the US and
you realize the danger there is real for civilians in MX and not much of an
exaggeration. Members of my wife's family have been drugged and robbed. Last
month a friend told me her nephew was kidnapped and they were gathering ransom
money for his release stateside (he is safe now). Not that these were cartel
related, but the situation in Mexico is much worse and real than say, the
scare stories about "bad" neighborhoods in NYC.

------
33W
In regards to finding the narco radio stations, wouldn't it be trivial to
triangulate their location and destroy them?

~~~
avn2109
I thought this too, since as far back as the 1940's the Nazis could put the
necessary radio triangulating hardware in a van.

But then I realized that the people tasked with doing the finding are on the
payroll of the Cartels, and will therefore go to great lengths to never find
any transmitters.

~~~
sliverstorm
I don't think you have to be on the payroll of the cartel to want to never
find the cartel.

~~~
cheepin
yeah, not wanting to die is probably enough incentive for whoever replaced the
last guy who found a cartel.

------
superuser2
When the cartels have state-level resources, at one point do we stop treating
them like criminals and start treating them like enemy states?

------
walshemj
so your'e a Telco guy going into bandit country why the fuck wasn't he
escorted by a couple of bricks (fire teams).

From what I know of telecoms during the troubles that is how it worked in the
border areas between Eire and NI in no way did one engineer (lineman) drive in
his van to a site in the more dangerous parts of the contry

------
pakled_engineer
There was a guy here who provisioned 'secure phones' to a bunch of gangsters
and they shot him when they turned out to be not as secure as advertised.

------
hackuser
Previously:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8568394](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8568394)

------
wyck
Robert Bunker's opinion is the only thing that makes sense in that article.

