
Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out - nashequilibrium
https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313417655879102464/photo/1
======
mr-hank
Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to
say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret
the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to
staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this
story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware
that identified as male, no sexual jokes were made about forking. My friends
and I had decided forking someone's repo is a new form of flattery (the
highest form being implementation) and we were excited about one of the
presenters projects; a friend said "I would fork that guys repo" The sexual
context was applied by Adria, and not us.

My second comment is this, Adria has an audience and is a successful person of
the media. Just check out her web page linked in her twitter account, her hard
work and social activism speaks for itself. With that great power and reach
comes responsibility. As a result of the picture she took I was let go from my
job today. Which sucks because I have 3 kids and I really liked that job.

She gave me no warning, she smiled while she snapped the pic and sealed my
fate. Let this serve as a message to everyone, our actions and words, big or
small, can have a serious impact.

I will be at pycon 2014, I will joke and socialize with everyone but I will
also be mindful of my audience, accidental or otherwise.

Again, I apologize.

~~~
adriarichards
Hey,

Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking
me.

I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I
hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively.

For context, I'm a developer evangelist.

That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou
demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launches, I also hear
about the experiences of women working at startups.

In both cases I offer suggestions, ideas and mentoring to help the developers
become problems solvers. Sometimes the answer is our API or not answering
email after 7pm while other times it about being assertive and shedding
impostor syndrome.

The forking joke set the stage for the dongle joke.

Yes, this time I decided I didn't want to argue my perspective. I decided
instead to accept it bothered me and took action based on the PyCon Code of
Conduct. It sounds like if I'd said something about the forking you would have
denied it having a sexual association. Not sure if I smiled but I'm also
unsure what facial expression you would have expected.

I just got done writing my blog post you can read here:
[http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-
dont...](http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-
at-tech-conferences/)

See you next year.

~~~
cheez
Your inability to take a joke is dangerous for the public image of whichever
company you're evangelizing for.

And this after you make "sock down your pants" jokes on Twitter. The irony is
delicious.

I hope the OP sues you for reproducing his likeness without his permission.
PyCon is, after all, a private gathering.

~~~
askien
She NEVER had to take a joke. The joke wasn't directed at her and she wasn't
part of the group talking.

She OVERHEARD them talking. Completely different matter.

I, for one, am offended when people eavesdrop me.

~~~
sp332
They were sitting in the middle of a packed conference hall. It was not a
private conversation.

~~~
cheez
In case you still don't understand why she did what she did:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY>

------
fingerprinter
I just happened on this thread, even if a day old. Un-fucking-believable.

I'm disappointed nearly all around here. Disappointed in pycon for actually
kicking them out. Very disappointed that some would say posting their picture
was fine (hint: it was not). Utterly disappointed they lost their jobs over
this. I still can't believe they lost their jobs over this. What a sad state
of affairs the world is in when someone's twitter rant (with no proof, mind
you) gets someone canned.

Additionally, I'm flabbergasted that so few seem to think that Adria is, of
all things, NOT the bully in this situation. The way she handled it was
sensationalist, abusive, slimy and, most of all, cowardly.

Look, I get it, Adria was offended. We've all been there. I hear someone say
something racist around me, I offer up a "not cool, dude" and move on. Handle
it maturely, rise above and walk away. Or better yet, explain it. Too
intimidated to explain it to them? Fine, write about it in the abstract. What
Adria did was as low as it comes.

Could those guys have used some better judgement? Sure. Were the alleged jokes
appropriate? Mildly not appropriate (but lets not get hyperbolic here...they
were MILDLY not appropriate). Should they have been kicked out of the conf?
No, someone should have talked to them about code of conduct. Should they have
been fired? WTF? NO!

And, lastly, Adria's hypocrisy would be amusing if not so sad.
<https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425>

Freakin' absurd.

~~~
mr-hank
The PSF did not kick us out, they pulled us from the main convention and got
our side of the story. I gave a statement, apologized and thanked them for
upholding the cons integrity. They felt I was sincere and let us leave of our
own accord. I was also the only one who was let go.

~~~
selenamarie
Thanks for continuing to speak in this thread. As someone who has not spoken
up when I felt objectified or uncomfortable in the context of sexual jokes at
technical conferences, I am relieved by how you've handled this. I wouldn't
say I feel suddenly comfortable with speaking out to someone directly, but
let's say that I feel a bit more like if I did speak to someone directly, they
might not attack me.

It's an unfortunate fact that speaking up often has far more downside than
upside for women professionally. It's only recently I think that women have
had enough status in the tech community to speak up and not be a) blacklisted
or b) harassed by whoever they spoke up to. Clearly, this thread demonstrates
that lots of people still feel that their ability to say whatever they want,
whenever they want, trumps all. It makes me sad, to say the least.

This is a big community, and I hope you find a new job soon. If there's
something I can do to help, you can ping me on twitter or gmail.

~~~
mr-hank
Unfortunately in this case there were more downsides than could have been
predicted. I personally helped recruit 2 young women over the course of the
weekend who were looking for junior/intern positions. They both seemed very
passionate about development and well qualified. Before I lost access to my
corporate account I was able to get one of their resumes to my manager but I'm
afraid the other might have gone down with my inbox. I've been imploring my
boss to forward my address or look into my closed account to see if he can
find her response. I know how hard it was for me when I was first starting
out, how scary it can be, you're putting yourself out there hoping someone
will see just how awesome you are. I can only imagine it's more difficult
coming in as a minority to the field.

Thank you for your support and I'm glad my response to this incident has given
you pause. I don't feel like my reaction is extraordinary, so that's been a
bit of an eye opener.

I've already got a few leads, I met with a local start-up guru who's going to
introduce me to some CEO's. I feel confidant I'll be employed very shortly. I
don't feel comfortable reaching out to you privately based on your contact
with Adria over twitter but we do run in the same circles and I will reserve a
righteous high five for if/when we meet.

~~~
theorique
_Appropriate reaction:_ slap on the wrist, "hey dude, that joke's not cool -
consider your audience next time", maybe _at most_ a little note in the old HR
file.

 _Inappropriate reaction:_ what actually happened.

FWIW, I deplore the high-tech lynching that has taken place, and I'm sorry you
lost your job over this drama. I know that my sympathies and $4 gets you a
Starbucks latte, but I just want to add my voice to the chorus of people
saying that this situation sucks.

~~~
mjn
I agree, though I've got to say, I blame the employer the most here. Unlike in
a real "lynching", the internet mob did not kill anyone, or even cost them
their jobs. Some HR person at a company decided to make an employment decision
based on some internet controversy, and I think they need to own that
decision.

In this overall controversy there is a strange amount of blaming two people,
on either side, who did _not_ make the decision to fire someone. The people
who own that decision are whoever it is at PlayHaven and SendGrid who call the
shots.

------
ianschenck
What just blows my mind, is that Adria keeps referring to this as an issue
against females. The comment (as clarified by the terrible perpetrator
elsewhere) was about a part of male physiology and not directed towards any
person, male or female. She just keeps repeating how this is some sort of
female issue. I frankly don't see the connection. I do see how some
puritanical folks could be upset, because you know, sex is terrible. I could
see how the humor is crass. Adria didn't rescue some poor downtrodden female
in distress, she took a sexual innuendo that offended her and blew it up
publicly.

She mentions a few times playing cards against humanity at Pycon.
<http://instagram.com/p/W3htw7gaR5/> I'm not sure how "mecha-hilter", "dead
babies", "afterbirth", or "eating all of the cookies before the AIDS bakesale"
are less offensive than "big dongles". I guess I have to trust her as a the
"Joan of Arc" that she is.

I will be honest with you, she scares the crap out of me. Who's next? What's
the next juvenile comment that ends someone's job with a publicly posted
picture? I don't want to work with her - how do I know my picture won't end up
on twitter with some "This guy was talking about mounting his scsi" caption.

This isn't activism, this is emotional terrorism.

As an aside, I feel like the women in tech might misunderstand a lot of us -
which is nothing new, who DOES understand us. We didn't grow up the jocks, the
cool kids, or the prom king. We larped. We played D&D. We played MUDs. We sat
up late coding. We were the dorks. We got wedgies and swirlies. Our chocolate
milk was constantly taken by bullies. We got knocked out cold in dodge ball.
We were tread on for most of our lives. I think coming into the tech world
with the attitude that men need to be stood up to and knocked down is just
going to come across to many of us as the same bullying attitude we grew up
with. I think if most women in tech sat down with just about any neckbeard I
can think of, they would be amazed at how friendly and awesome we are. We are
not "the man" you're trying to overcome. We're simply people, who program, and
we are happy that other people are entering the field. And really, we don't
want to be crass or offensive. We are actually well known for our extremely
awkward social skills. Just pull us aside and ask us kindly not to do that -
you'd be surprised how nice we want to be.

But what do I know, I'm no longer an engineer, I'm just a (male) housewife. My
(female) partner is the software engineer.

~~~
colabug
Cards Against Humanity is irrelevant to the issue. Also it's not about being
puritanical and easily offended.

Being a male geek/dork/nerd/outcast in school doesn't excuse behavior that
causes a hostile, sexualized, or otherwise unwelcoming environment. I, a
female geek, was an outcast too and participated in many of the activities you
mention, yet I came out mature.

You claim that male engineers (which you referred to as neckbeards) just need
to be told that their behavior isn't OK and that everything will work out
fine. You know what, I've tried that approach many, many times and it always
backfires. The first reaction is quite similar to what you have above. Blame
the person for being oversensitive and blowing things out of proportion. Then
other defensive reactions ranging from yelling to ostracizing the female from
the group follow. Rarely, after lots of back and forth emails and other
draining communications (where I have to do tons of research in order to
educate them about male privilege and other concepts), the issue is resolved.
This successful resolution has happened maybe three times in my career.

Guys, if you are faced with a complaint that something was sexist, not cool,
etc., please, don't let your first reaction be the defensive reaction we see
all the time. Take time, think it over, ask for more information so that you
can understand her position. You might just find an opportunity to grow as a
person.

~~~
antihero
Forking and dongle jokes are benign. Unless you are basically a mormon, I'm
not sure how being a woman gives you a "right" to be offended by something
like this.

~~~
colabug
Check out this blog, does a great job of explaining the frustrations of subtle
sexism.

"You, person who told me to lighten up, saw one little thing. It didn't seem
like a big deal, did it? One little line! One joke! One comment! But it's not
just one thing to me: it's one of thousands that I've had to endure since I
was old enough to be told that 'X is for boys!' It's probably not even the
first thing I've had to deal with that day, unless you've gotten to me pretty
early.

That's the main problem with subtle discrimination. It leaves those that it
affects the most powerless against it, quietly discouraging them. If they
speak up, they're treated to eye rolls at the least, and at the worst, are
called oppressors themselves. We're accused of not wanting equal rights, but
of wanting tyranny."

<http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/>

~~~
zellyman
So someone making a joke about sex is exclusionary to you? Why so sex
negative?

~~~
colabug
I'm sorry, but this makes no sense.

~~~
sha90
Here let me help:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_movement> \-- "sex-positive" is a
term describing a movement meant to embrace rather than repress sexuality. The
play on words of "sex-negative" refers to the opposite of sex-positive, ie.,
sexual repression.

OP is saying that you are sexually repressed because sex jokes make you
uncomfortable. This is a good point, because dongle jokes are actually not
"sexist", they are simply sexual. Men hold no exclusive territory over dick
jokes, or sex jokes in general. Women can tell dick jokes too. They can also
joke about vaginas (Sarah Silverman much?) and both genders can appreciate the
humour EQUALLY (yay equality!). Those who don't find it funny are NOT victims
of sexism-- they are victims of a shitty sense of humour.

~~~
truthtacular
Do you make sex jokes at work?

------
nnja
As a female attendee of Pycon this year I was overwhelmed by all the friendly
people I met. Now maybe my sense of humor is juvenile or coarse but what was
overheard is a joke I'd probably make myself.

Keep in mind Pycon was attended by plenty of minors so making adult themed
jokes in a crowded room was really not the smartest move. Regardless it
clearly states in the Code of Conduct
(<https://us.pycon.org/2012/codeofconduct/>) that the correct action is to
find a staff member and report it and NOT post someones picture on twitter
attached to hearsay.

If the comments were directed at OP that's a different story but that doesn't
seem to be the case. When I go back to Pycon next year I don't want to be
treated differently and as a sound minded adult I certainly don't need people
to censor themselves around me.

~~~
zshprompt
Thank you. I agree with you 75%.

Just because you would make this joke does not mean that someone cannot find
it offensive. Adria was offended, and good for her for speaking up.

~~~
ianschenck
Yet later she posts about playing cards against humanity. So Hitler, dead
babies, and afterbirth are hilarious but a sexual innuendo is not. Got it.

~~~
colabug
The card game didn't have the same audience as the comments made. Also you are
making assumptions about how she plays the game and what she would find funny.

~~~
ColdFingers
I do believe the person intended the joke to be private. It wasn't smartest or
most mature thing to do, but I don't think it's much different from a couple
guys texting each other jokes and Adria just happened to caught a glance of
their cellphone screen.

------
Xanza
Honestly, as a male developer, it's incidents like this that fully and
completely turn me away from taking any form of misanthropic misogyny
seriously (aside from the obvious). You're attending a public function with
hundreds, if not thousands of people and you truthfully believe someone,
somewhere, is not going to say something to upset you or to say something you
disagree with?

No, stop it. Just grow up or get out; you're actions are not akin to that of
Joan of Arc as you so blasphemously decided that they were (who by the way
changed the course of history as we know it, you arrogant git), instead they
are more akin to that of a bickering child who wishes to see their sibling
'get into trouble' because something they said didn't sit well in your own
opinion.

The skinny of it is he said something you didn't like, you blew it out of
proportion (remember, you're supposed to be an adult and have the ability to
process things accordingly) and this man lost his job; yet you're trying to
convince me that you're the victim here?

Just leave.

~~~
thisiscrazy
It defiantly makes me want to avoid PyCon with a 10 foot pole from now on,
lest I get fired for joking around near a women.

------
MrScruff
As a non-American who occasionally attends conferences in the States, this
entire incident is rather frightening. I really could not imagine a similar
reaction in Europe. It reminds me of the situation last year where a British
ruby conference had to be abandoned after negative publicity resulting from
tweets, made by non-attending Americans about the entirely white male lineup
of speakers.

I don't think this cultural difference is because women and minorities are
more oppressed here. I think it's more a result of the simplistic view some
Americans take on issues of discrimination.

Or maybe I'm wrong, maybe people do feel oppressed here and there's just less
of a culture of complaining. I'm not convinced though.

~~~
Argorak
Actually, brit ruby was initially called out for calling themselves a "diverse
conference", which was a very valid point: they had nothing to back that up.
The resulting shitstorm was inappropriate, though, and I am very sad that it
got cancelled.

~~~
MrScruff
Ok, that's possibly unfortunate wording but it could have referred to the
attendees rather than the presenters.

At the time the complaint was that they hadn't applied quotas to the
presenters which is not the same thing as discrimination.

~~~
Argorak
Not wanting to discuss that in detail (again), but the initial complaint about
brit ruby was okay and also accepted by the conference. The whole thing
afterward was sadly very messy. This blog post sums it up quite good:

<http://testobsessed.com/2012/11/diverse-discussions/>

In my opinion, its not a good example, as it is a relatively civil discussion
about an important topic gone horribly wrong.

------
bradhe
Wait wait, so this chick finds something that she thinks is inappropriate,
takes a picture of the "offenders," and puts it on Twitter? Even if the
comment in question was derogatory towards women in the first place (it
wasn't, unless sex and big dicks are automagically offensive to women), how
are people OK with that?

BTW, this quote is gold:

> As an advocate for digital equality, my actions today at #pycon made me feel
> like Joan of Arc, minus the visions

~~~
nashequilibrium
I think this is becoming a much harder area for guys to navigate, in the sense
that, are all sexual jokes off the table if females are present? I don't know
the answer, hopefully there will be more dialogue around this so that everyone
can understand general etiquette rules when in such an environment. I believe
that some guys can just be dicks but some might just not be aware that they
are being offensive.

~~~
ternaryoperator
> are all sexual jokes off the table if females are present?

Honestly, I wish they were off the table regardless of who is in attendance.
They're rarely funny, and they add nothing to the conversation.

~~~
Argorak
Full ACK.

Sexual jokes can be very funny if told correctly, in a non-discriminating
fashion, in the right context to the right people. That also means that they
can backfire horribly, especially if random people around. To me, thats not
even a question of sexism, many feel uncomfortable if that happens, regardless
of gender.

An open space conference certainly never is the right place. Also, cheap jokes
about "dongles" are never worth it... please, keep it classy...

------
kanja
Two men were victimized. Full stop. This doesn't help end victimization of
women. This is insane because it's so self defeating. All this does is give
ammo to the people who were against the changes being made this year.

------
johngalt
Time for the bigotry test:

Lets reverse the genders. It's a woman making the sexualized comments to a
friend, and a male attendee eavesdrops. Then he takes a picture her without
her consent. Immediately posts said picture online. She loses her job.

What would the response be?

~~~
antihero
Reversing the genders doesn't really work because they come from an unequal
footing in the first place. Of course, if you reversed all of history and they
were female dominated events with a long history of intimidating an harassing
males, perhaps the test would stand up.

That said, this woman's behaviour is a massive overreaction and exceptionally
irresponsible, and has led to something horrible happening. If I were here I'd
be doing everything I can to make it right.

~~~
claudius
Not allowing to reverse the genders implies treating them differently. That’s
sexist.

------
Arrow198
<https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425>

I guess it's only not okay when men do it, huh? Adria, you are a bigot and a
hypocrite. A generally vindictive, petty, spiteful child.

------
bobwaycott
Seriously, Adria (and all of you who are defending her actions)--you got this
one wrong; it was a false positive on your sexism scale.

As a philosophical Marxist, I count myself among those who not only inherently
support gender equality, but are from the thought tradition that started the
damn movement. In graduate school, my thesis focused on the Southeast US from
Reconstruction through the Civil Rights Act of 1964, investigating the role
religion played in the development, acceptance, and perpetuation of the
South’s attitudes and behaviors toward race, class, and gender. I get on guys'
cases all the time when they're being obliquely and overtly sexist,
_especially_ in mixed company. I also point out to women when they're putting
up with sexist behavior, because it's so ingrained in our culture that too few
even recognize it properly. To say I'm pretty well steeped in both the
academic and practical sides of gender politics, identity, and sexism would
put it rather mildly.

However, I don't go ape-shit and publicly humiliate someone for making a
potentially sexist joke among friends, because I have spent years rationally
and academically evaluating whether or not someone is actually attempting to
propagate bigotry and discriminatory behaviors-- _and this is the baseline for
sexism_ , not whether or not a person approves of a statement that includes
anatomical or sexual content. To reiterate, years of studying gender issues
from a historical and philosophical perspective have shown rather conclusively
that not everything sex-related is sexist.

The "big dongle" statement was _not_ in any way a 'sexist joke'. It was an
anatomical joke, albeit a childish one on the level of potty humor. Anatomy !=
sexism.

The forking comment, as explained by mr-hank, was not in the slightest bit
sexist. Forking is the sincerest form of flattery (short of implementation,
that is). People talk about forking repos all the time. I ask people if
they've "forked [person's] repo" on the regular. I honestly don't even care if
the guy said, "I'd fork his repo" in that typical, suggestive tone-of-voice.
Why? Because for all I know as an outsider, the guys having the conversation
could be homosexual, and not to put too fine a point on it, but homosexual men
have been the victims of some absolutely disgusting and horrific sexism and
discrimination (and much worse). Also, homosexual men don't heavily trend
toward making lewd comments that are directed at women, especially where dick
comments are concerned.

But even beyond trying to keep that consideration in mind, dick jokes or
comments that are made between men without any obvious sign that the
potentially offending comment is intended to be overheard ought to give
everyone pause before sounding the Sexism Alert. Yes, guys talk about dicks at
times and in places that are probably not appropriate. Kind of the way
children talk about poop and farts and pee at times and in places that are
probably not appropriate.

You know what else I hear a fuckton of at times and in places that are not
appropriate? Breasts. Penises. Sluts. Periods. Boyfriend issues. Husband
problems. Boob jobs. Male celebrity fantasies. _50 Fucking Shades of Grey_.
All of these from _women_. All the time--in offices, conferences, churches,
cafes, restaurants, bars ... you name it. You wanna know how frequently I hear
women talk about breasts (theirs or someone else's), or periods (theirs or
someone else's), or the ways in which [insert body part] is changing during
pregnancy, or how hot [insert attractive male celebrity] is, or how juicy _50
Shades_ is? It's _everywhere_.

Moreover, I can't even count the number of times I am in professional meetings
with clients and notice [mostly younger] women adjusting their bras right in
the middle of the meeting. Hey, I know those things get damn uncomfortable,
ladies, but it also gets uncomfortable sitting through a meeting for two
hours, crossing and uncrossing my legs to give my dick some space to not be a
total pain _just for existing between my legs_. And guess what I _never_ do?
Adjust in the presence of women. Ever.

And to be perfectly transparent, I usually ignore it all. I'm one who pretty
much defaults to giving women a pass because of all the stupid shit they've
dealt with over a long history of men being complete assholes. I mean, really.
A woman could make the most sexist comment I've ever heard and I'd just give
it a shrug; but I'd say shit to a man if he was even obliquely offensive.

And yet, on this one, sounding the alarm was wrong. This wasn't sexism.
Inappropriate? Sure, I'll grant Adria that. There were way too many people
surrounding the exchange that it would have been better to not make the dongle
comment--especially given that there was a woman in close proximity (and
that's not a sly way of suggesting they should have made the comment if a
woman was not in close proximity). It was an improper forum for such a
comment. But to turn around and smile and take a picture, post it to Twitter,
and then continue on calling oneself Joan of Arc? Christ, that is beyond the
pale.

Just as the men who made the childish dongle comment agreed to a Code of
Conduct, so did Adria. And just as she wanted them to abide by the Code, so
should she have. I don't recall there being anything in the Code of Conduct
that said one had the option to A) inform conference staff, or B) post a
person's picture to Twitter if they say something you don't want to hear.

[edit: spelling errors & wording]

~~~
savagedm
While I am only a visitor from Reddit on this website and I will likely not
post on here again, I felt compelled to make an account and reply to your
post. You sir, win the internet award for 3-20-13 for your outstanding
writing, cogent points, and social awareness. One does not often see this
quality of writing and thoughts combined into a singular document on internet
sites, and for making me think at the end "oh man, I really enjoyed reading
this", I thank you.

As an aside, you were dead-on with your points. Women frequently engage in
behavior that, when mirrored in men, would be called out for sexist. One point
I was discussing with the girl I currently am dating is that there needs to
now be a "mens' rights movement" similar to what women have accomplished for
their gender. We are all equals, but men seem to be content to sit back and
let the outside world badger us into a box of "manliness" and double standards
that negatively affect us based solely on our gender. That is not to say the
reasons we were put here in the first place are not completely valid, but that
does not mean we should stay there now that we have multiple generations that
get it.

I think if want to push true equality, it must acknowledge that both sexes
have unique hardships, it must encourage equality for both sexes, and it must
be supported by both sexes.

I could go on for hours about the double-standards both men and women place on
each other, but I'll stop here and just reiterate my thanks to you for giving
me something enjoyable to read on the internet today.

~~~
bobwaycott
Hey, thanks for the compliment and kind words. I appreciate that.

However, I must emphatically and proudly express that I do not support the
negation and devaluing of women's (as well as ethnic, [other] cultural, LGBT,
etc.) rights by way of reactionary countering with a "men's rights" movement.

One of the most pressing reasons is that such a movement would likely result
in a majority of white, heterosexual male adherents (at least here in the US).
From a historical perspective alone, males of nearly all notable ethnicity
have dominated the world stage in terms of rights, privileges, and power--and
white, heterosexual males in particular. This undeniably central component of
human history (especially as it leads to Western modernity) is a primary
motivator on my part to refrain from supporting an ideological, social, or
economic (read: material) crusade that would pose a serious threat to the
hard-won and valiantly fought-for progress that has been made in the human
condition over the past century+. It could be possible that a notable minority
male demographic would join such a movement, but at least in the US, such
calls for "men's rights" are typically laden with reactionary white men who
feel somewhat despondent at figuring out how to navigate in a world that, at
least in words, tries very hard to no longer privilege that genetic
inheritance.

More abstractly, a "men's rights" movement would, I think, offer very little
gain to humanity as a whole, and would threaten to destabilize and retard the
advancement of human rights and greater gender and sexual equality in social
relations. This would be a terrible regression to allow to happen. Even when
people like Adria raise the red flag in a moment of haste that, I think, will
later be reflected on as regrettable, it is still done (I hope) from a
position of sincere concern for protecting those who are actual victims of
bigoted, discriminatory behaviors.

On this particular issue, I am disheartened to see the fallout from her
overreaction, especially as her actions have affected three children, their
father, and (assuming she is present) their mother. One woman's dislike of a
comment that she mistook for sexist antagonism (or some emotional reaction in
the same vein (also: I'm not using 'emotional' in a pejorative sense here))
has now affected five lives. Moreover, in reading her blog post on the
subject, it threads through a story of a person who has been hyper-traveling
from conference to conference, is exhausted, has already dealt with a person
_on the same day_ making a completely inappropriate and objectifying
joke/comment that is absolutely inexcusable, and _then_ she basically takes it
out on a couple of guys who said something which, given their own statements
and the available evidence, bears every indication that she basically went in,
guns blazing, to the wrong fight. What is most important is this: the guy who
made a comment _directly to her_ about looking under a [table] skirt and
finding it "bare, just the way [he] liked it" DID NOT have a picture posted to
Twitter and a massive call-to-the-carpet moment. She talked to him. She even
told him the comment could be funny in a different venue (her own admission).

The evidence available leaves the distinctly bad taste that the punishment did
not fit this crime, while a much more serious issue in which she actually
spoke to the offender directly was apparently cause for discussing the comedic
appropriateness of a shaved vulva at a tech conference.

Moreover, to go back toward the philosophical end of things, this brief quote
from Wikipedia provides a decent enough look at exactly what is meant by the
Marxist understanding of gendered disparities in social equality:

> _Marxist feminism's foundation is laid by Friedrich Engels in his analysis
> of gender oppression ... a woman's subordination is not a result of her
> biological disposition but of social relations, and that men's efforts to
> achieve their demands for control of women's labor and sexual faculties have
> gradually solidified and become institutionalized in the nuclear family.
> Through a Marxist historical perspective, Engels analyzes the widespread
> social phenomena associated with female sexual morality, such as fixation on
> virginity and sexual purity, incrimination and violent punishment of women
> who commit adultery, and demands that women be submissive to their husbands.
> Ultimately, Engels traces these phenomena to the recent development of
> exclusive male control of private property and the attendant desire to
> ensure that their inheritance is passed only to their own offspring:
> chastity and fidelity are rewarded, says Engels, because they guarantee
> exclusive access to the sexual and reproductive faculty of women possessed
> by men from the property-owning class._ [1]

We are, on even our worst days as a society, nowhere near a state of affairs
in which that synopsis can swap the gendered pronouns and hold true.

I hope that provides a bit more context, as well as a decent enough grappling
with why, given how much social inequality actually still exists to be
eradicated, a "men's rights" movement is nothing that needs to be on the
table.

[1]: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist_feminism>

~~~
nawitus
"However, I must emphatically and proudly express that I do not support the
negation and devaluing of women's (as well as ethnic, [other] cultural, LGBT,
etc.) rights by way of reactionary countering with a "men's rights" movement."

Then you don't support equality. Men have the same amount of gender equality
issues (maybe even more) than women in Western countries.

"From a historical perspective alone"

History has no relevance to the fact tha men today have about the same mount
of gender equality issues. In addition, just because the majority of rulers
and people in power were men, that doesn't mean the majority of men were in
power. In fact, rulers, politicians and CEOs constitute less than 0.1% of the
population. You cannot prove anything about the average man by talking about
an extremely tiny minority. Meanwhile in history men have been forced to fight
bloody wars, work to death in horrible conditions etc.

"More abstractly, a "men's rights" movement would, I think, offer very little
gain to humanity as a whole"

It would gain a huge amount of well-being. Such a movement is required so
politicians will also try to fix gender equality issues that men face.

List here:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/uwekw/facts_and_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/uwekw/facts_and_statistics_detailing_male_oppression/)

~~~
bobwaycott
I do, in fact, support equality for everyone, regardless of gender, ethnicity,
sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, religion, etc. However, you are very
selectively choosing facts to draw a picture in which men " _have the same
amount of gender equality issues (maybe even more) than women_ ".

Sorry, but you are severely mistaken regarding the relevance of history. It is
of primary relevance, because without properly understanding how we arrived at
this point in history, you couldn't possibly evaluate the actual scale of
gender disparities in social relations.

The percentage of male rulers as a total percentage of the human population is
not a valid metric. When you study history, and the impact of rulers, you
evaluate their impact on the subject population, the society and culture, as
well as the world around them. History, because it is ever so relevant, shows
a rather stable trend in which one can chart the increases in social
inequalities in favor of one gender at the expense of another, or of one (or
more) ethnicities at the expense of others, etc. So far, we are looking at
about a century of social justice being established to improve the standing of
women in relation to their historical subjection by men.

Once you have an adequate grounding in history, you can then start thinking
philosophically through how best to proceed without retarding equality. While
there are, of course, contemporary social imbalances and inequalities where
men are concerned, what we do not need is more gendered lines being drawn in
the sand. Moreover, we do not have a social structure in which men's labor and
sexual faculties are institutionalized in a form that is under female control,
which would be a _huge_ red flag that the pendulum has swung too far.

One can advance equality and be vigilant against sexism, racism, and other
forms of bigotry and discriminatory behaviors without resorting to more of
this us vs. them bullshit that "men's rights" evokes. But understanding the
root causes of inequalities--as opposed to merely pointing out instances of
what appears to be inequality--is where the real work lies. Not a masculinism
cult that establishes its identity as the negation of feminism.

In sum, a "men's rights" movement is not going to increase equality, because
it is only going to codify more gendered division in the social fabric. If
you're really interested in enhancing equality as a social good, you would do
better to champion the cause of equality that is blind to biological and
socioeconomic factors, and works instead to specifically eschew attempting to
define equality as inversion of a movement whose existence required the
specificity of gender because history had only ever concerned itself with the
rights of _man_.

~~~
nawitus
"However, you are very selectively choosing facts to draw a picture in which
men "have the same amount of gender equality issues (maybe even more) than
women"."

I'm not, really. Feminist discourse is based on the claim that women have more
gender issues. They never really argue for that position. I've linked a list
of gender equality issues (though my primary source is unfortunately not in
English).

Here's a book on the subject if you're interested:
<http://granum.uta.fi/granum/kirjanTiedot.php?tuote_id=18450>

"It is of primary relevance, because without properly understanding how we
arrived at this point in history, you couldn't possibly evaluate the actual
scale of gender disparities in social relations."

Yes you can. We can look at metrics for gender issues: e.g. do women get paid
less or more (they get paid the same per hour), do women get raped more than
men (not in USA), is the majority of violence made against women (it's about
50:50). It doesn't matter if women were discriminated against more in the
past, if empirical evidence shows that they're not.

"what we do not need is more gendered lines being drawn in the sand."

Agree. Many men's rights activists agree on that point, and are against gender
roles that hurt both men and women.

"Moreover, we do not have a social structure in which men's labor and sexual
faculties are institutionalized in a form that is under female control, which
would be a huge red flag that the pendulum has swung too far."

Your sentence implies that men's labor and sexual faculties are under male
control, that's not true. Women decide who wins the elctions - majority of
voters are women: <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20231337>

"One can advance equality and be vigilant against sexism, racism, and other
forms of bigotry and discriminatory behaviors without resorting to more of
this us vs. them bullshit that "men's rights" evokes."

That would argue that we only need men's rights movement, not a women's rights
movement. Since the women's rights movement doesn't concern men's rights, we
need a men's rights movement.

The biggest feminist organizations do not accept me as a member because of my
gender. Their organization discriminates on the basis of gender. That's not
equality. I cannot take part in the women's rights movement because of my
gender. That's why we need a men's rights movement - so that men's gender
equality problems are also taken care of. Currently 90% of the gender equality
resources in politics is used for women's rights. That number should be 50%.

"In sum, a "men's rights" movement is not going to increase equality, because
it is only going to codify more gendered division in the social fabric."

You make the implicit claim that men's rights movement is for gender roles.
That's not true. In addition, you can use your own argument against women's
rights movement, as it 'codifices a gendered division'.

"If you're really interested in enhancing equality as a social good,"

I'm really interestd in equality, and men's rights is the most important
movement in recent years. Almost nobody used to talk about gender equality
issues concerning men. In recent years, after the men's rights movement was
formed, there have been small mentions of men's rights in official statements
in the country I live in. Without a men's rights movement all the gender
equality policy would say would be about women. Therefore, it's pretty clear
that the men's rights movement increases equality.

I cannot link sources because they're not in English, but it used to be that
only representatives from women's rights organizations were given
representation in the official gender equality council of my country. They
only talked about women's rights. Now a few seats have been given to the
representatives of the men's rights movement.

~~~
tylerhwillis
>do women get raped more than men (not in USA)

This is very wrong.

The link you provide in the original comment is for violent crimes (including
rape), not for rape alone. There is little doubt that women are more likely to
be raped in the US than men.

Here's a relevant study from the Bureau of Justice Statistics:
[http://bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1146](http://bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1146)

"Overall, an estimated 91% of the victims of rape and sexual assault were
female."

~~~
pbhjpbhj
>" _Overall, an estimated 91% of the victims of rape and sexual assault were
female._ " //

It may not change the ratio but of course one must remember that is "victims
of rape and sexual assaults that were reported and recorded as such".

The study linked, (text version <http://bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/SOO.TXT>)
says only a third of the rapes reported to them were reported to police and in
my cursory glance I couldn't see how many of those reported led to a
conviction and how many led to a dismissal of charges, etc..

However I did notice this:

"In 1994 victims reported about 1 rape/sexual assault victimization of a
female victim for every 270 females in the general population; for males, the
rate was substantially lower, with about 1 rape/sexual assault of a male
victim for every 5,000 male residents age 12 or older."

It's often joked on certain forums, eg reddit, that men who're incarcerated
are likely to suffer rape (I'd guess women do too but the jokes are always
concerning men it seems). I wonder how true that is and how well these figures
reflect those crimes.

~~~
hopeless_case
Men are less likely to report sexual assault and rape against them than women
are, for a number of reasons. One being that rape is defined as being
penetrated against your will, and not being made to penetrate against your
will.

Any study that counts convictions, or even complaints, it going to
underestimate male victimhood.

You need to look at victim surveys to have any hope of estimating how many man
are raped, and how many women rape.

See my other post in this thread for details on that.

------
pixiegod
Adria, I am a big supporter to equal rights. I am of hispanic origin, and even
raised catholic, i believe in gay rights, womens rights, and am as big a tree
hugger that you will ever meet. I actually stop to confront people who protest
day laborers (while Adria combats her demons behind a blog/twitter etc), and
have stood toe to toe with minutemen, and multiple groups of not so happy
looking skin head tattoed guys...

when my daughter tries to quit anything, i p;ush her just as i would any child
of mine, regardless of sex...and as such she is a four year old who is ahead
of her class mathematically, uses a computer (i cant tell you how happy i am
when i saw her boot her machine, log in, and launch firefox and type in "p",
found "pbskids.org" and proceeded to play her game....at age 3 and a half)...

I am philisophically on Adrias side, but i do break on one count...when sexist
talk and sexist ideas are actually used to hinder a womans rights and hinders
a womans progression in ANY way, i will roll up my sleeves, jump into the
foray and defend any abused person, whether or not its "my fight" to get into.

Adria, sorry...i dont know you...but this was over the top. There are many
things we men get blamed for that are truly just over generalized jokes, but i
dont anyone to town over it...being forgetful...not being able to
multitask...not being clean...all of these things dont mean anything unless
they are being used to really abuse you...

my wife shoulkd be brought up on charges for all the "male bashing jokes" i am
subjected to...and sadly, i hvae known women like you...the jokes against
males, against whomever you see is a target of your angst is ok...but god
forbid if anyone who has no control over you at all makes some sophmoric poop
joke...then we must have his head on a platter for opressing your delicate
sensibilities...

------
zshprompt
Its a tough call, but I will say that it is not clear who the bully is in this
situation.

If the comments were made directly at someone, I am sure all will agree that
this is grounds for consequences.

However is it really a "safe space" if people are shamed publicly for what
someone finds offensive BEFORE the matter is brought up to STAFF? I mean the
two dudes in the photo may have grounds to say that they are the ones being
harassed.

~~~
colabug
It's not about her being offended by a particular comment, nor is it required
that said comment be directed at her. The issue is the environment that is
created when such things are quietly tolerated.

Sure staff could have been involved, but then it's not a teachable moment,
just another moment suffered in silence while the "authorities" handle the
situation for her.

It may seem like a small event to you, but I'd suggest reading about what I
like to call "death by a thousand papercuts" (via @skud). There are TONS of
"little" things that happen everyday that can be dismissed as insignificant,
but they add up to an unwelcoming environment.

~~~
zshprompt
I read that article when it came out. This is not a "lighten up honey
situation". Adria has every right to be offended and absolutely every right to
call out their bad behavior.

I just feel in hindsight it would have been better if she gave the PyCon staff
a chance to address the matter before posting pictures of people on twitter.
It was her right to take a picture of those guys, its the posting before doing
anything else that I humbly disagree with.

~~~
oh_sigh
> This is not a "lighten up honey situation". Adria has every right to be
> offended and absolutely every right to call out their bad behavior.

Ah, so the only two choices are 1) condescending, sexist down-talk to a woman,
or 2) a woman being rightfully offended.

What about 3)a woman being non-rightfully offended?

------
adriarichards
Here's context:

The guy behind me to the far left was saying he didn't find much value from
the logging session that day. I agreed with him, turned around and said so. He
then went onto say that an earlier session he'd been to where the speaker was
talking about images and visualization with Python was really good, even if it
seemed to him the speaker wasn't really an expert on images. He said he would
be interested in forking the repo and continuing development
<https://us.pycon.org/2013/schedule/talks/>.

That would have been find until the guy next to him...

began making sexual forking jokes

I was going to let it go. It had been a long week. A long month. I had been on
the road since February and PyCon was my 5th and final conference before
heading home.

I know it's important to pick my battles. I know I don't have to be a hero in
every situation. Sometimes I just want to go to a tech conference and be a
nerd.

But...

like Popeye, I couldn't stands it no more because of what happened next:

Jesse Noller was up on stage thanking the sponsors. The guys behind me (one
off to the right) said, "You can thank me, you can thank me". That told me
they were a sponsoring company of Pycon and from the photos I took, his badge
had an add-on that said, "Sponsor".

They started talking about "big" dongles. I could feel my face getting
flustered.

Was this really happening?

The rest of the story I've posted on my blog:
[http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-
dont...](http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-
at-tech-conferences/)

~~~
ianschenck
Can you please explain, because it seems obvious to you but not to me, how a
crass joke about male anatomy is inherently anti-female.

Can you also please explain why going public was the best immediate course of
action.

Lastly, would you have been offended if the joke came out of a female's mouth
(as asked below)?

I've been in a situation where a young female engineer was in a very abused
situation, and it took me a much thought to figure out how to handle it, but
immediately going public was definitely not the right choice.

Thank you.

~~~
chrisfs
I am NOT the OP but I think the answers to your questions are pretty clear.
Crass jokes about in the anatomical parts male or female are not appropriate
in a professional setting where you don't know everybody who is sitting
nearby. There's no need to go into complex discussions about sexual or power
dynamics. Immediate action is needed because unlike the workplace there would
be no opportunity to speak with these people later

~~~
jorgenev
How fragile are women, really? It seems amazing to me that they don't all just
shatter the day they are born (from what I read on the internet at least).

~~~
dodyg
Your comment is stupid. Sexual jokes made by strangers create a hostile
environment for women. Don't do it. Period.

If you are among friends, go crazy and nobody gives a damn.

~~~
oh_sigh
> Sexual jokes made by strangers...

Is a joke about a 'big dongle' a sexual joke, or an anatomical joke?

Is a joke about someone having fat fingers a sexual joke, since fingers can be
used in sexual acts?

> ...create a hostile environment for women

And not men?

~~~
andrewdupont
_Is a joke about a 'big dongle' a sexual joke, or an anatomical joke?_

I feel like you're being willfully obtuse here. The penis is commonly used for
exactly two things. Sex is the _only_ reason why anyone would consider it
advantageous to have a large penis.

 _And not men?_

Sure, men too. Let me repeat that: _you are "allowed" to be offended about
this if you are a man_. People tend to say "creates a hostile environment for
women" not because of assumption or stereotype but because of _many personal
accounts_ of _specific women_ who say that this sort of joking makes them feel
like they're in a hostile environment.

------
alukima
My first reaction to this was that she was being overly sensitive. As several
others pointed out she admits that she played Cards Against Humanity while at
the conference and obviously that seems far more offensive to most than
dongles and forking.

Any girl that works in a place with a highly skewed male to female ratio has
to have a cut off. While working at a game company I let little jokes like
this slide because I thought they were funny and they didn't offend me at all.
Then it got a little worse and it eventually turned into "Oh alukima is grumpy
today, her boyfriend must not have given her any dick last night" and when I
told someone no, we couldn't do x "on your period?, I'll just take this up
with [male supervisor]." I eventually quit.

I don't think it's like that in every unchecked environment but in the future
I will speak up much earlier. I'll probably be called overly sensitive then
and I'll probably agree with that. But it's worth to keep it from escalating.

~~~
thisone
From my experience, there can be a lot of one-ups-manship in the office.
Between men or between women.

If your environment has this type of atmosphere, it probably will escalate
until you make it known where your line is.

I don't think it's a problem to make your line known. People, men and women,
interact with others differently. Some of my coworkers are massive flirts for
example, I'm not.

Their line is different from mine, and that's okay as long as we respect each
other.

------
peterhunt
This was a private conversation between two individuals. This reeks of a witch
hunt to me.

------
scman
Who's worse in this situation, the men having a private conversation, or the
woman who was eavesdropping and decided to make this into her personal witch-
hunt? Posting their pictures online was far worse than what they said. The
fact that she sees herself as "Joan of Arc" just shows how self-righteous she
is. I would be very concerned if I were working with her.

~~~
oh_sigh
I'm not on the side of Adria in this fight, but I don't agree with your
points. First of all, they were not having a private conversation. Presumably
Adria wasn't utilizing some telescopic microphone to record their whispers.
She was just sitting near them, and heard them speaking. That is not
eavesdropping.

------
wazoox
What I'll remember from all that: you can lose your job and be publicly
smeared and shamed by joking with your friend at a conference. I certainly
wouldn't ever want to come at any such conference, at any price. This is
political correctness gone completely crazy.

------
RougeFemme
It sounds like it was so crowded that it was hard to have a conversation that
could be considered "private", that is, not easily overheard. To me, this
would be like saying something offensive at work while on an elevator or in
the corporate cafeteria. I may be looking directly at someone else while
saying it, but if others can easily overhear it, is it really "private"?
Having said that, I would not have tweeted their photos, but I _might_ have
said something directly to them _without_ or "before" involving staff. .
.which might also be considered a violation of the Code of Conduct.

------
selenamarie
I hope people here realize how far some people will go when they feel they are
given permission to harass others:

<https://twitter.com/jessenoller/status/314417532842950656>

This is just awful. And the people who are taking part in the harassment are
responsible, not anyone else.

~~~
lawnchair_larry
Being that you "thanked" Adria for her deplorable behavior, I'm not sure that
you're in a position to speak out against harassment on this issue.

~~~
flaviusb
Adria's behaviour wasn't deplorable - it was fine. The response of the two men
involved's workplaces (ie firing them for essentially bad PR) was less than
fine, but not deplorable. The response of the hordes of screaming shitbags
making death threats has been deplorable. Fucking deplore the actually
deplorable, not the fine.

------
yaelwrites
Asa woman who hangs out at tech events, I've had people make all manners of
offensive jokes around me. And a really great way to handle it is to talk to
them about it. Or ignore it. Or talk about it loudly in front of them with my
friends. Putting someone on public blast for something overheard, and then
writing a douchey post about how you're creating safe space for future
generations... is just pathetic. Be a !@#$ adult about it.

------
beigelightning
It's interesting how Adria attaches the importance of dealing with these men
since they were sponsors, but then when dealing with it went completely from
her personal platform. As SendGrid, her company is a sponsor, shouldn't she
have run her response/reaction through the proper channels? This of course had
an effect (hopefully short term) on the comment maker, but I think Adria will
find in the long run she just shot herself in the foot in the tech space as
far as further employment is concerned.

------
Sasha_
What an outrageous, holier-than-thou, nasty, self-righteous woman this is.

------
Pinatubo
Firing someone for saying something mildly offensive within earshot of a woman
is not going to make the community more accepting of female colleagues.

------
ipsocannibal
It seems from the comments from the individuals involved in the incident that
the "perpetrators" of said offensive have been genuinely apologetic and
remorseful. While Ms. Richards although apologizing for the fact that one of
the jokers lost their job has not really apologized for making this a big
stink over social media. I agree, if you have a concern use the Code of
Conduct to your advantage or talk to them directly but why take their picture
and post it on twitter with some vague description what you think they said if
not to shame or humiliate them publicly. Well, why would she apologize? Being
a media personality, (that what she is, a tech PR person that gets in front of
people and talks for a living, ignore the Tech. Evanglist BS), using social
media effectively is probably integral to her business model. If she admits
that the original posting to twitter was uncalled for then its akin to saying
she can't do part of her job in an ethical manner. So what is she to do,
double down of course. Instead of being an adult and admitting she made a
mistake as well, she needs to play the "Joan of Arc" card in order to garner
more sympathy and divide the audience. Sure she makes herself look like an
asshole to some but doing it but at least she saves face with a lot of people
she hopes to potentially sell her services to. Instead she should admit that
she got ticked off and decided to use her considerable PR skill to make an
example out of two people. Well guess what, pay back is a bitch. I just
checked your blog and it's down. It seems cloudfire isn't helping you, and by
the Out of memory error message that's returned, (which by the way, if you are
a "tech evangelist" you should know is incredibly insecure to display error
messages like that on a production website) it seems like that DDOS is
working. The internet is a double edged sword and it seems like it's swinging
back her way. From my point of view, this is the ultimate in fairness. Her
actions caused a person to lose their job, (I don't believe for a second that
if she had not posted to twitter, if she had gone to the con staff or directly
confronted the jokers, that anybody would have lost a job.) so she should lose
an equivalent dollar amount in lost job opportunities and page views.

------
swhitt
Didn't GitHub's progress-bar screen while you were waiting for a fork used to
say "Hardcore forking action!" or something like that? I think I have a shirt
that says something along those lines too. Weren't those guys celebrated for
their incredible humor?

------
nnnslogan
She posted a picture of two guys and made public allegations about their
conduct which resulted in their termination. To me this looks like grounds for
a defamation lawsuit. Did they give permission to use the image of them? Did
they admit to making these alleged jokes that she took offense to? There's
something seriously wrong with this. I could take pictures of any two guys at
an event and put it on Twitter and say they were gay bashing or using racial
slurs, and they have no opportunity to defend themselves.

This is seriously messed up.

~~~
andrewdupont
You could've read this thread to find the answers to most of your questions.
Yes, the two gentlemen in question did make these jokes; one of them admits as
much in this thread, and said so to the PyCon organizers when they
investigated the incident. Yes, they had an opportunity to defend themselves.

You might not be familiar with defamation law in the United States, but
understand that truth is an absolute defense against defamation. Nobody is
disputing the facts of the incident (the actual content of what was said), and
Adria's interpretation of the jokes (whether you agree with it or not) is
clearly in the realm of opinion.

 _I could take pictures of any two guys at an event and put it on Twitter and
say they were gay bashing or using racial slurs, and they have no opportunity
to defend themselves._

Yet ask yourself: does this happen in the real world? Is there an epidemic of
false, Twitter-aided public shamings? We've already established that this
_isn't_ an example, since no facts are in dispute. Maybe the implications of
this incident aren't as far-reaching and scary as you think.

~~~
Smudge
You're right about the defamation. However:

> Yes, they had an opportunity to defend themselves.

That is to say, they had an opportunity to defend themselves to the PyCon
organizers. Who, subsequently, did _not_ kick them out. From what I
understand, after discussing the situation and hearing both sides (and,
presumably, their apologies), PyCon issued them a warning. At least one
individual then left of his own accord.

Where they had no opportunity to defend themselves was against the public
shaming (and subsequent outcry) brought about by Adria's twitter post. At
least not immediately, and by then the damage was done (I see that later one
posted a comment on HN).

Regardless of what the law may or may not say, or whether or not they crossed
any lines (and I believe they must have, to at least some degree, for Adria to
have felt so strongly about it), Adria really did not give them any
opportunity to even apologize, let alone present their side of the story.

Perhaps their jokes were truly indefensible somehow. But it hurts the
community when, instead of affording each other some form of due process and
making an effort to raise awareness and education, we choose arbitrary
scapegoats and pursue vigilante justice.

------
zshprompt
Now here is someone who deserves to be banned:

compare and contrast <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5402826>

~~~
kstrauser
Yeah. They were sitting a few feet from me. I caught a whiff of the smoke and
my first thought was "are you freaking __kidding __me?" I don't care what you
do in your own home, but toking up in a crowded room at a tech conference is
just jackassery.

------
vr6
Honestly, I cant speak to what happened here as Im not sure what to think
other than both US government and now its citizens are working to maintain
police state rather than a free country. Beyond that, I happen to work in an
environment where women are not treated fairly or given the same opportunities
as male sw developers. I survive it, try not to be part of the problem, but it
sucks! There really is a gender inequality problem in the tech industry and I
think both sides are part of the problem. Both sides conduct themselves in
ways that propagate the issues. Beyond that, even tech woman within their own
gender group become more detrimental to each other than the males. It's
sickening!

How do we truly begin to solve this on all layers? I guess the first step is
awareness within all layers of the issue, and agree on all sides there are
problems that cut both ways, and then we must be willing to resolve it on all
layers. We cant just hold one gender responsible, we all are responsible. But
really how best to do this???

Single White Female Systems and Sw Developer

------
CitizenTekk
Full disclosure: I'm a girl with three older brothers and have been around a
ton of guy-humor.

\---

Hey everyone, I do feel really bad for "mr-hank." I personally would not have
been offended by his comments ... I probably would have found them funny. I go
to a lot of tech conferences (and I have 3 older brothers), but girls joke
about things, too. I'm just not one to freak out about the word "dongle" or
"fork." The implications seem fairly innocent to me.

But listen, it was Playhaven who sparked this controversy. The funny part ...
is that Anonymous touts freedom of the internet ... their founding principle
was to be against internet censorship. They attacked the Westboro Baptist
Church for taking down a YouTube video of Tom Cruise. So, I'm really surprised
they went after SendGrid over a freedom of speech case on Twitter. There's no
doubt that Richards has the right to report on something that happens in real-
time. That's a basic right for citizen journalism. I come from a journalist
and analyst background, so am pretty passionate about the freedom to report.

Long story short, I think there's a lot of attention on the gender gap in
technology right now and it's feeling very forced and uncomfortable ... i.e.
lots of press and publicity.

I think empowering, rather than squabbling, is really important right now.
This gender gap change has to come from the top (as Cisco pointed out recently
in their awesome statement about not being very supportive and dedicating to
doing better).

<http://dthin.gs/Z1yKQC>

It's the long-standing corporate powers who need to be symbolically "fired"
(or otherwise reprimanded) - not mr-hank.

And it was Playhaven who started this unjust controversy - not citizen
journalism by Adria Richards.

------
skwulf
I've been nerding it up my whole life. (And pretty much still giggle every
time I hear the word "dongle." Come on! It's just a funny word.) The sexism I
have experienced has less often come from men in tech, and most often been
from the general population - men and women alike. That's just an aside. I'm
not gonna comment on the specifics of this situation because I'm not sure any
of us will ever have the facts. All I ask is that people don't use this as an
opportunity to spew aggressive, hate-filled hyperbole. It doesn't help
anyone's arguments. Let's try to rise above the estimation that the internet
is nothing but a cesspool of angry trolls and shut-ins, and use situations
like this to have open, practical dialogue. Who wants to cumbaya with me? (No,
that's not a euphemism, and I will socially shame anyone who claims
otherwise.) (Oh, god, this just went full #meta.)

------
spocktacular
The question of what is "appropriate" behavior is not something that has an
objective definition. It is a subjective judgement which depends on the
participants involved. If someone in a conversation is made to feel
uncomfortable by the conversation, it is incumbent upon the participants to
understand why, and make an informed decision on how and whether to modify
their behavior.

Rejecting a person's objections to a given behavior out-of-hand is tantamount
to telling that person "we don't care whether you stay or leave."

We can foster an inclusive industry by instead saying "we want everyone to
participate, and we want to understand what you're saying when you say what
we're doing makes you feel uncomfortable."

In the end, it's not a male vs female or race vs race thing - it's just a
question of adopting essential patterns of civil collaborative engagement.

------
jaja911
So what if you offended? Why should anyone have to worry about offending
everyone? I find your assertion that because I am a white male I somehow have
more privilege and my accomplishments are somehow less significant then a
women offensive. Why are you offending me please stop! Seriously i'm sure
Christians are offended by openly gay couples, should a gay person be fired
for "offending" someone by his lifestyle? Muslims are offended by seeing a
uncovered women, should they be allowed to fire her because they are offended?
What makes your definitions of offensive anymore valid then theirs? I also
find your belief that somehow your opinions on what is offensive is more valid
then other peoples.

------
herdrick
Hey everyone - before commenting, please notice how many people have already
commented with essentially your opinion. No need to pile on.

What we have here is a cascade of overreaction. HN and other communities are
overreacting too. Think how much better it'd have been if, for example,
PlayHaven had waited a day or two to think through this (assuming we've
already got the story right, which is unlikely). That applies to you too.
Let's just take it easy for the time being. Probably by tomorrow we'll have a
clearer view of the facts.

Don't try to hurt someone on the internet, especially when others are doing
the same.

------
einjen
[http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/skiskyting/artikkel.php?artid=101...](http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/skiskyting/artikkel.php?artid=10114996)

Americans are crazy. Look to Norway.

------
ewitch
What a bunch of melodrama (on all sides, but the anti-Adria faction is
definitely uglier). These are adults? Glad I never got into Twitter, what a
waste of time and energy.

------
Macsenour
I don't know if I'll ever go to PyCon. But if I do, I'm not saying anything
but "hello" and "good bye".

------
dc0de
What's next, are they going to go out and get the news, television
programming, and all other media outlets to stop the sexism? Why are they
trying to ruin all conferences? Why does the court of public opinion not
target those outlets?

Oh, because they can't get any traction. That's why.

------
annasaru
From what the guy has said (one of the two guys), there was no warning, no
complaint at the time. Just a picture taken. This lady had a size-able twitter
audience that she tried to exploit. So it was unfair to the male who got let
go for what seems a very minor thing.

------
etherael
I got downvoted for saying it at the time and later quoted out of context on
shithnsays, and I wish I wasn't in a position to say I told you so, but:
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4982330>

------
lsiebert
You can debate whether she should have been offended, but it's clear that she
was offended. It's possible to offend people unintentionally.

Given that, her actions are totally understandable. I doubt that she intended
to get the guy fired.

------
dmishe
Nice image for sendgrid, they should be thankful. Although SES is faster
already.

------
alison_lowndes
I think you all need to spend a few weeks in rural Africa and realise how
fuckton crazied we westerners can get at times. (Am nicking that phrase if
thats ok, @bobwaycott?) Word!

------
thelarry
I snicker every time i hear the word dongle in a meeting...

------
xxxxxxxxxxx
Petition: [http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-
hi...](http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-his-job-
back/)

------
tripleggg
By the way, let's not forget that besides Adria Richards, there is another
party to be shamed and boycotted: PlayHaven.

I am pretty good at what I do and I would never ever in a million years work
for them or anyone like them. Good engineers are in demand and thus in a
position of some influence.

Don't take the victim mindset. Your employer needs you at least as much as you
need them. Boycott PlayHaven. They need to know there are consequences. It's
the only way anything is going to change.

I saw a petition to re-hire the guy who got fired. Fuck that. I know I
wouldn't want that job back.

~~~
tripleggg
This goes for Adria Richards' employer SendGrid as well. Andria has publicly
embarrassed you and put on the blacklist among many good engineers. I would
never work for you or any other company that has position reserved for
"developer evangelists."

------
tripleggg
OMG I just read the comment from the real victim, the guy who got fired and he
is apologizing!

DUDE what are you apologizing for? She should be apologizing (will never
happen). Your employer should be apologizing as well. But YOU have done
absolutely nothing wrong.

At the very least I hope your apology in insincere and you're only doing it to
get another job, which is somewhat understandable.

------
IsaacSchlueter
So, some people were acting immaturely at a tech conference, violating the
CoC. They offended someone with their antics, and most likely embarrassed
their employer, a sponsor of said conference.

The employer might have been a bit knee-jerk in their reaction, but maybe not.
No matter how many children you've got, publicly embarrassing the company at a
sponsored event is certainly ample grounds for termination.

I am not a member of the python community. But I've gotta say, it's nice to
see that it was handled in the way that it was.

And then you people. This Hacker News crowd. Jesus H Christ. You're talking
about how Adria failed to use her power responsibly? Give me a break. If I was
sitting where she was, I might have done the same exact thing. When you are
childish in public, and behave in a manner that the organizers of a community
event do not want you to behave, you get kicked out. When you make an ass of
yourself while waiving a company logo around, you can expect to have your
career impacted.

It's unfortunate that such an example was made of them. It is not a wise
strategic move, clearly, because doing so mobilizes the asshat army, as we're
seeing.

The non-apology <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681> is just
disappointing.

My hope is that the boys involved in this incident can learn from it, and
behave more appropriately when in public.

~~~
law_mclawyerson
how about this?

[https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-
conduct/harassment-i...](https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-
conduct/harassment-incidents/)

Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community.
PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect.

She violated such a code of conduct herself and didnt actually report to
staff; even by her own admission. This was twitted out and an army of angry
whiteknights informed someone on staff.

~~~
IsaacSchlueter
> army of angry whiteknights

Please refrain from racist comments.

~~~
vacri
'white knight' has nothing to do with racism. It evokes the mythical imagery
of the paladin, whose surcoat is clean and white because he is so pure and
uncorrupted.

~~~
IsaacSchlueter
Just because you're not offended by a racist comment doesn't mean it isn't
racist.

------
rmrfrmrf
Thank you, Adria, for fighting the good fight. I hope that the voices of
support for you drown out the rampant hate that you're receiving. Seems like
HN turns into a complete shithole the second a woman "has the nerve to choose
to be offended" or whatever bullshit these misogynist assholes peddle.

The benefit that I always see from situations like this is that it empowers
the women who, in the past, have been too nervous to call people out on their
shit. Just know that you're doing amazing work and are paving the way to
creating an environment of gender equality.

~~~
truthtacular
I second rmrfrmrf here. People are acting like it's easy or fun to be the one
to stand up and try to do what's right. It isn't easy or fun and part of the
reason people don't do it is that when you stand up, you become a nice visible
target.

