

Ask HN: Gave loan to startup which is now profitable. What should be repayment? - kennethologist

Hello HN, I am a small time angel investor and roughly 7 months ago I gave a long of $50K USD to a startup with no terms other than when the company is profitable the company will pay me back.<p>Now this is the second month that the company is now thriving and have Net Revenues of $1 Million USD.<p>It's time for repayment. What should I ask for? 2x, 5x, 10x loan amount?<p>I don't want to be outrageous or undervalue my investment. Just want to be fair and need some help in this area.<p>Thanks in advance
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tomfakes
I think you may be overvaluing what you have here.

For a loan, under a year, my first thought is a percentage - maybe 5-10%.

If you purchased equity, then you'd be looking at getting a multiple of your
money back - but not necessarily on your schedule.

Next time, get the terms up front.

If someone offered me a loan with the terms of 5X on payback, I'd walk away
immediately. You need to find out that both sides are not on the same page
before the money changes hands. Now that you are in a relationship, this could
get quite messy if the expectations aren't similar

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tptacek
Something in between $50,250 and $60,000. Loans earn interest. Investments
2-5x because they take a percentage of the upside of the company; loans don't
do that.

With no terms whatsoever, the obligation is probably just $50,000.

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benologist
5x or 10x seems ridiculous, they have revenue not an exit, you have to ask
yourself if they would have accepted that when you made the deal. Loan sharks
give better terms than that.

Since you didn't do it under any terms I'd suggest using either one of the
'standard' convertible debt termsheets floating around that YC etc use, or
picking the highest reasonable interest rate they might have gotten if they
went to a regular lender.

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kennethologist
Thank you for your input. Just a little more information don't know if it
changes anything but the startup came to me with nothing but an idea. No proof
of concept only an excel spreadsheet with potential revenues etc. The money I
loan them gave them the necessary finances to start the company and I would go
out on a limb to say without the money the company wouldn't be in existence
today.

Ps. I also purchased equity initially with an investment of 75K for 30% of
company. 3 months in the company needed additional funding as development of
the application went over schedule and budget.

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benologist
If the 75k was done under specific terms why not use them for the additional
50k?

That would give you 50% of the company, a valuation could be calculated based
on their profit they can use to buy you out?

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kennethologist
I felt that would not have been unfair. Also I felt that owning 50% of the
company wouldn't give the founders enough skin in the game to really give the
idea their all.

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benologist
It's not really about taking the extra 20% it's just easier to value what that
contribution was and is now worth that way.

I also think one last thing to consider: was this money lent with the
possibility of it never being repaid, or was this a loan that the founder/s
would have carried with them if the business failed?

If there was never any risk that you would lose the money then I think that
lessens what you should expect to receive for it.

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kennethologist
I agree with you in retrospect and most certainly if make an investment in the
future will structure it much better. With regards to the repayment of the
loan. No. If the the business had failed I would have written off the money.

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frendiversity
Ask them what they think is fair, and also give them the option to wait
longer. They may be willing to give 10x if you are willing to wait until they
are at $10m revenue.

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shail
Obviously the founders has a reason to borrow money from you (second time) but
you too were already 75k down and would have wanted it all to succeed. So my
guess is that your 50k further investment was partially in your favor too. So
I think if you get back 2-3 times, that should be good enough and you should
give them a fixed time frame to pay you back (nothing less than 6 months and
nothing more than 1.5 years).

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orangethirty
Fair? That will get you sued. Sit down with them, and ask for what you want.
Next time, don't lend under those terms. It doesn't make sense, and you are
opening yourself to a lawsuit. Hopefully, you have a good enough relationship
with them that they won't weasel out. Money changes people.

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cobrabyte
Terms at the time of investment would have been ideal but, if I were in this
situation, I'd probably consider the number of unsuccessful investments I had
made and work to recoup some of those funds. Obviously, you won't want to take
so much that it leaves the business in a tight spot. 2x-3x seems fair, since
you stated you're an angel investor. I suppose you might convince the company
to pay more if you intend to reinvest those funds into one or more angel-type
investments.

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basdevries
If you didn't disclose any terms, and feel bad about asking any percentage,
just tell them how you feel about it, tell him that from his perspective it's
smart to just pay the 50k back, but you think it maybe was kind of an
investment because it gave brith to the company it is today. I suppose you
have a good relationship with the founders and you could easily discuss this
over coffee. A convertible note would be an option too

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Mitchella
You should not be 'angel investing'. Here is why: you don't have pre-
established terms and contracts that state the exact terms.

If you gave me money with the only requirement being that I 'pay you back',
all that means to me is. Give me $XX... I'll give you EXACTLY that amount back
later on. No more, no less.

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centdev
If you make an investment into a company of $50k with no terms than do no ask
for nor expect a repayment greater than your investment. It is your
responsibility to lay out terms as part of an investment rather than make the
assumption of your return based on their perceived worth.

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kennethologist
So I've asked for 5x loan. After several phone calls this afternoon we've
agreed to 2.5x with payments to start next week for 9 months ($13.8K per
month).

Thanks to everyone who took the time to give feedback.

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thesmileyone
You are very lucky. From the terms you laid out in your OP you are only owed
$50k, seperate to your equity in the company.

If I lend someone £5 I cannot then expect someone to pay back £25. I expect
£5.

If you are going to continue to invest in the future I really recommend you
have signed documents with a contract, because not all business owners are as
friendly as the guys you lent money to in the OP!

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schoash
If you didn't discuss terms you cannot ask for more than what you gave.

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sharemywin
do you ever see the company being sold or ipo? if so, why not see abou
converting to equity?

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kennethologist
No. I don't see it IPOing as don't think it can no more than 20-30 Million
Revenue Company. Don't see it being sold as it's very specific to a particular
subset of people.

