
Show HN: I built this notifying device – electronics, code, design, marketing - clement87
http://www.notifon.net
======
thechut
You've made some interesting choices here. Lots of people here are questioning
using a gateway, but I think this is a great choice for what you are doing,
and required to get decent battery life. However, I think using ZigBee will
end up pricing you our of most markets in the long run. Especially if you
elected to go with the very pricing Xbee modules from Digi. These are
developer friendly, but way to expensive. If you are serious about building
this as a product, I would investigate alternative RF solutions, there a lot
of good ones out there.

Check out the 6lowpan standard, which is specifically designed for this kind
of communication. Dust Networks
([http://www.linear.com/products/smartmesh_ip](http://www.linear.com/products/smartmesh_ip))
has a good implementation. The other alternative would be to go with some of
the proprietary RF standards, I know this sounds prohibitive at first but will
end up saving you money on your BoM in the long run. Check out Atmel's
LightWeight Mesh
([http://www.atmel.com/tools/lightweight_mesh.aspx](http://www.atmel.com/tools/lightweight_mesh.aspx))
which is based on 802.15.4, the same as Zigbee and BT, so if you want you can
even run ZigBee on the same hardware. Linx also makes a great proprietary RF
module
([https://www.linxtechnologies.com/en/home](https://www.linxtechnologies.com/en/home))
which is extremely cheap even at low quantities.

If you are using Xbee (which it seems like you are) then you are likely not
using a SoC, so designing in a different radio may still be relatively easy.

PM me if you have any questions, I've been working on this IoT stuff for a
while now. Congrats on the crowd funding campaign and best of luck.

~~~
johnm1019
As an outsider to the space, your comment makes it sound like ZigBee is never
a good option. Is this so? Is there a 'target market' for ZigBee?

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Industrial.

You'll probably find that most price-sensitive consumer devices that don't
need to interface to a standard protocol like WiFi will use very basic RF
communication with a homebrew protocol. It makes the engineering cost much
higher than using more complex devices, but spread over hundreds of thousands
or millions of units, that cost vanishes.

OTOH, industrial markets are a lot less price sensitive. Also, quantities sold
will be much less, so the device's unit price has to be higher to make
building it worthwhile.

~~~
thechut
Exactly, it is till good if ease of use and time to market is the major goal
and price isnt a big question, which is certainly true in many markets.

However, I think we will see it fall out of favor in consumer markets unless
thye drastically reduce the license fees.

------
abcd_f
Congrats, this is an interesting project and props for doing it all on your
own! I thought our kind has gone all but extinct these days :)

That said, here's a problem from just watching the video - all the focus on
the design of the device assumes that it should be on a display. That's the
domain of the home automation market for passionate amateurs - "Look, look, I
automated my door!" A proper installation is _always_ discrete and does not
clash with existing interior design of the space. It would be something that
blends in easily and, ideally, paintable over. Definitely not a computer-mouse
like puck that just screams "look at me!". Your whole point of this being
"technology that is not worth hiding" is way off for practical applications. I
realize that you probably trying to pull Nest here, but this is an utilitarian
_non-interactive_ device, it has no business being visible in my space. I
would strongly suggest adding an "OEM" model that is just a flat white box.

------
namenotrequired
That sounds cool! I do recommend you highlight a few practical use cases, i.e.
what benefits does (or will) it provide? Try to lead with _why_ rather than
with _what_. It took me a long time to realise they're all the way at the
bottom.

I also recommend not repeating the words "notifying object" so often - right
now my eyes might go from: "Notifon, the notifying object." (1st headline) to
"Transform any object into a notifying object!" (2nd headline) to "Notifon /
Transform any object into a notifying object" (video) to "Preorder now" to
"Notifon is a wireless Internet-connected device that sends you instant
notifications based on real life events." and I've learned little more than
the 1st headline told me.

Thanks for sharing this and good luck with your crowdfunding campaign!

~~~
clement87
Thanks for those good recommendations, I think you're so right with the
"notifying object" words! I think the Indiegogo page is better, I'll merge it
with the main website.

------
aalpbalkan
This is cool marketing but it is way _expensive_ than I expected. I am not
sure pricing is DIY-friendly but you would certainly find people to buy that.

~~~
clement87
I use a technology called ZigBee. It's a wireless protocol made for Internet
of Things devices. This part represent about 60% of the production cost. This
chip is expensive but gives years of battery life. Curious about what price
did you expected?

~~~
zapt02
I expected this to work through either wifi or a very cheap USB dongle. The
price point for a base station with one device should be 49.99 and each
additional device should retail for 14.99. That's my honest opinion.

~~~
clement87
Thanks for the reply. This kind of price can be reach using Bluetooth Low
Energy. Those chips are really cheap but as you might know, the range is too
low.

~~~
zapt02
BLE doesn't sound too bad? 100 meters according to WikiPedia:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_low_energy#Technical_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_low_energy#Technical_details)

This can of course be far from the effective distance, but since the data
being communicated is so small it should be possible to keep sending the data
until you can acknowledge that it has been received.

Also, you could look into creating a mesh network between all Notifons, so you
could extend their range.

[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14136218/bluetooth-
mesh-n...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14136218/bluetooth-mesh-
networking)

~~~
clement87
You can't build a mesh network with sensors on idle mode.

------
jpwright
Looks great! Out of curiosity, why go with the hub/node approach using ZigBee
for sending such a small amount of data? There are WiFi modules like TI's
CC3000 ([http://www.ti.com/product/cc3000](http://www.ti.com/product/cc3000))
available for very low cost that would make separate hub hardware unnecessary.
This is the product used in Spark Core
([https://www.spark.io/](https://www.spark.io/)), for example. I imagine there
are a few different reasons why you might spring for a hub-based solution
despite the higher cost, but just wondering what your thinking is.

~~~
swamp40
We use a wifi module in a battery operated environment (we kill power to the
module when it isn't in use).

It uses about 225mA @ 3.2V.

The connection/handshaking take about 5-7 seconds to talk to a local server,
plus the time for whatever data you are sending.

When talking to an internet based server, the connection time can extend out
to 20+ seconds.

So you can see wifi isn't the greatest choice for low power/battery operated
environments.

(Now on something you don't mind recharging a few times a week, it is
perfect.)

~~~
clement87
Exactly, for Notifon the transmit time is 40ms. That's why it can run on a
small and sexy coin battery (CR2032).

~~~
mkesper
I much prefer standard mignon types. They are an ubiquity.

------
itafroma
Interesting. Seems similar—complete with slightly creepy base station—to
Sen.se:
[https://sen.se/store/cookie/#mother](https://sen.se/store/cookie/#mother)

(Though it appears Karotz is a separate thing:
[http://store.karotz.com/en_US/](http://store.karotz.com/en_US/))

There's also Electric Imp, but it's a bit more of a platform/DIY:
[https://electricimp.com/](https://electricimp.com/)

~~~
barbs
My first thought was that it looked very similar to Ninja Blocks:
[http://ninjablocks.com/products/ninja-blocks-
kit](http://ninjablocks.com/products/ninja-blocks-kit)

------
exodust
How do you know the garage door is "open"? If you receive an identical
notification whenever the sensor is triggered, the door could be open or
closed.

With something like a garage door, knowing its state is very important,
perhaps more important than knowing when the sensor has been triggered. When
someone leaves the garage door open (kids), this is what we need to be
notified about. Is the Notifon up to this task?

Also, range might be a real issue when the nodes are placed outside or in the
letterbox.

One more thing, and this is just a personal preference in response to the idea
that I "won't want to hide the device". I don't understand why people think
white plastic is the best choice of color. So many cheap kitchen appliances
are white plastic. If you have floorboards and warm living areas with warm
tones everywhere, shiny white plastic objects are an eyesore. IMHO.

~~~
clement87
Of course the Node can trigger two states. So you know when it's open or
closed. You can set a different message for each state.

~~~
exodust
Sorry, but just saying "it can do it" without explaining how, is not
convincing!

The magnetic switch in the video - I have used before, and they do not
distinguish between "open" and "closed".

When someone opens the garage door, a notification is sent: "garage door
open".

When someone CLOSES the garage door, a notification is sent: "garage door
open".

Unless you can provide further explanation, the device only notifies of
"activity", not specific activity such as open or closed. In which case,
you're being a tad misleading.

~~~
clement87
I think you should try again to play with your magnetic switch. Here is some
help:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_switch](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_switch)

~~~
exodust
Ok, thanks for the useful link (I think). When I played with wireless door
sensors and Arduino, detecting door state reliably wasn't happening. Maybe
it's the wired vs wireless factor that gives yours the edge. Maybe that's the
trade off to know open/closed state with certainty, is to use wired sensors.

------
dmritard96
Been working on overcoming some similar issues for another IoTs project.

The wireless chipsets for IoT are really limiting IoT because there are so
many tradeoffs. Zigbee seems to have most of the technical challenges solved
yet have such a high cost. Raw rf/radios require custom (error prone )
software stacks but are super cheap, wifi uses TONS of power and BLE is fairly
limited in range even if it in theory can get better range... I think as soon
as someone solves the chipset for the IoT, its going to be as simple as
slapping I2C sensors/actuators and 3d printing mechanical parts for fast
innovation.

------
lnanek2
Wow, Amazed someone used ZigBee instead of Bluetooth Low Energy. There's just
so many more BLE chips out there and Android and iOS phones are even
compatible nowadays.

~~~
clement87
The key is to get notifications when you're away. BLE don't have a good range
(about 10 meters). ZigBee is more like Wifi (about 50/100 meters).

------
pdx
That you managed to do everything is impressive, especially given the costs
involved in production tooling for plastics. I assume you had to build a large
quantity of PCBA's as well, to get your per unit cost down to something you
could actually make a profit on, which means that was another large check you
had to write for components and assembly.

Can you give a ball park figure for how much you invested, bringing this
product from concept to market?

~~~
clement87
Thank you. In fact, I haven't yet launch the mass production. I'm running a
crowdfunding campaign on Indiegogo to have at least 400 preorders. As I have
done a lot myself, I didn't had to invest so much. The only part that was done
outside is the design of the plastic enclosure. I found a good designer in
china, it cost me only 700$ for both Node and Hub with 3D printed prototype.
In total, I think I spent about 1500$. I had to buy an oscilloscope, some
componants and others tools...

~~~
mik3y

      The only part that was done outside is the design of
      the plastic enclosure. I found a good designer in china
    

Would you mind sharing how you located this designer/plastic shop? I've had
mixed results with mecheng partners outside of my personal network, so I'm
always curious about how others do it..

~~~
clement87
I found him on elance.com

------
sunkay
This is pretty cool. Can you describe how you went about designing the slick
outer packaging? Did you use an external vendor to design & produce? I am
doing a DIY project with my kids and wondering how to get the outer packaging
for the arduino board inside. Any pointers appreciated...

~~~
clement87
The best way is to found a freelancer in China. I used elance.com

------
HeyLaughingBoy
This is brilliant!

I'm right now looking into building something similar but for
industrial/agricultural applications in unattended machine monitoring. I'm
planning to prototype using a similiar Digi device: the 900 series with 1 mile
range.

I would never have thought of a consumer version. Fantastic idea.

------
dantiberian
This looks really cool. Just a side note, you might want to update your
website to use screenshots from iOS 7. The current screenshots look a little
dated because they are from iOS 5 or 6.

------
johansch
The web page gives me pretty much absolutely no idea what this product does,
except for the abstract "notify me of things". How does it do it, how do you
interface to it, etc?

~~~
clement87
In fact there are more details on the Indiegogo page. Can you take a look and
tell me if I have to add some details?
([http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/notifon-the-notifying-
obje...](http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/notifon-the-notifying-object/))

~~~
johansch
The key thing is what you wrote there:

"Sensors

Notifon is universal. You can use any sensor that has two states, such as a
switch, a push button, a magnetic door switch, a relay... Notifon allows you
to predefine a set of actions for each state."

Just put that (or a simplified form of it - a graphical illustration is
helpful) somewhere quite visible on the actual product page?

------
erikano
Looks very nice. When I went to the page, I wondered, "notifying about what?"

Your video did a great job at presenting the product and explaining what it's
good for.

Good luck with your crowdfunding.

~~~
clement87
Thank you, I wanted the video short and demonstrative

------
Pyrodogg
You've got precious little runway left on that campaign, which launched in
early March. What other promotion have you been doing to get people to buy in
to Notifon?

~~~
clement87
That's the point, I think I launched the campaign too soon. I didn't had a
good press coverage on the launch day. One week later, I got answers from
Mashable and Techcrunch reporters, they seemed very interested by Notifon,
until I sent them the campaign link (with only 3% of the financial goal
reached).

~~~
Pyrodogg
Good luck with the rest of it. I like the idea and it's definitely clear you
have the tech down.

------
Balgair
Good first pass. But the page you link to needs copy-editing. There are a few
sentences that don't have agreeing verb tenses. Not much, but it is there.

------
edwhitesell
1) All screenshots are of iPhones, is there Android compatibility? 2)
PushingBox only allows login with a Google account.

Both of these mean I could never be your customer.

~~~
clement87
My main phone is an iPhone but of course Notifon is compatible with Android
and Windows Phone. For now PushingBox require a Google account, I plan to do a
lot of development to make PushingBox even better. So don't worry, you can be
a customer ;)

------
smni
What do you need to do for FCC compliance? Is it all taken care of because
you're using ZigBee?

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viggity
interesting, it looks like you spent a lot of time on it, congrats on
launching. Did you also consider using zwave over zigbee? I've been looking at
installing a zwave hub and a few light switches, motion sensors and
thermostat. Care to compare/contrast?

~~~
clement87
Thanks, Z-Wave is also a good technology but I hate the "association" part,
when you need to be at least 3 feets from the Hub. I don't think Z-Wave will
survive in the next 5 years. Look at Philips Hue, they also chose ZigBee.

------
motyar
I really need to understand and learn how it works on such less power. Kudos.

~~~
clement87
Simple, when you open your door, the Node wakes up during 40ms, transmits at
40mA to the Hub and goes back to sleep consuming less than 1uA. You can
calculate the battery life yourself:
[http://oregonembedded.com/batterycalc.htm](http://oregonembedded.com/batterycalc.htm)

------
phmagic
This is really awesome. Great work.

