
Can You Locate Iran? Few Voters Can - vo2maxer
https://morningconsult.com/2020/01/08/can-you-locate-iran-few-voters-can/
======
verganileonardo
Not sure if only taking into account the % of voters that precisely mapped
where Iran is located is enough, as it would put someone that selected Egypt
and South America in the same group (wrongly identified the location).

I would prefer an 'average distance from the border' analysis, in which we
would be able to compare which group is clearly unaware of Iran's location
(selecting Europe or even North America, for example) and which group at least
has a basic idea of the location (Middle East).

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tyingq
_" Men were about twice as likely as women to be able to identify Iran on both
maps"_

Wow, that's unexpected. Is there some credible source on why this is the case?
Also curious if this is generally true...would you get the same result if they
were asked to identify Belgium on a map?

~~~
op00to
Scientific studies suggest men generally have a better sense of direction than
women, and use that sense of direction more effectively. Kind of makes you
wonder where the "fails to ask for directions" trope comes from! :)
[https://blog.education.nationalgeographic.org/2015/12/10/do-...](https://blog.education.nationalgeographic.org/2015/12/10/do-
men-have-a-better-sense-of-direction-than-women/)

~~~
op00to
And yes - I know it didn't PROVE men have a better sense, it suggests that
based on the effects of hormones administered to women.

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magicalhippo
Back in late 2003 I was visiting a friend in Florida. News was filled with the
war on terror, with the invasion of Iraq starting a few months earlier.

He introduced me to his neighbor, who asked where I was from. Norway I
replied. "Oh, hmm, we haven't bombed Norway yet... where is it?"

After a moment he added that he was only half joking, as a reference to the
geography lessons he had received at school and the news coverage.

~~~
amflare
"God created war so that Americans would learn geography." \- Mark Twain - The
Innocents Abroad

~~~
dang
That doesn't appear in the Gutenberg.org version of the text [1], and
according to the Quote Investigator, Twain didn't say it [2].

1\.
[https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3176/3176-h/3176-h.htm](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3176/3176-h/3176-h.htm)

2\.
[https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/05/19/geography/](https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/05/19/geography/)

------
hinkley
I've gotten to observe some tutoring recently and it gives me a different
perspective on this than the typical "Oh look how stupid people are" reaction
than probably got this post flagged.

Some people, when faced with a problem they can't answer, respond with a glib
answer, or a panicked one. I propose that when you ask someone where Iran is
and they don't know, they click on Northern Africa not because they think it's
in Africa but because as soon as they give any answer they can be done. "Fuck
it, I'm choosing North Africa."

It's like that kid who answers '5' when the teacher asks what 2x4 is. How the
fuck could five be the answer? It's not even an even number! Are you stupid?
No. You've given up, and you think guessing will get you out of this
experience. Many of the teachers I knew would double down in this situation.
Yes, you should not condition the child to get out of things by doing them
badly, but now they're the focus of everyone's attention which is also
detrimental to the process.

I would like it if education focused on making people more resilient and
empowered to figure out what they don't know instead of trying to get out of
the uncomfortable situation. If people can learn on their own you don't have
to min-max education to help the most people with a single process (leaving
both the gifted and the slow kids in the dust in the process).

I've said before that I think physical education should focus on how to do
physical things without hurting yourself (ex: how to fall properly).

Now I'd also like it if academic education focused not on how to cram things
into people's heads faster but how to keep from getting frustrated or panicked
when facing adversity in learning.

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juped
This sort of poll is perennial but never says anything interesting, imo.

~~~
mc32
It’s akin to asking Iranians, can you point out Missouri [or Texas or Calif]
on a map?

~~~
thoughtleader31
No, because Missouri is not a country. I'm always puzzled by this attitude
that individual US states should have the same hierarchy in knowledge of the
world as actual countries.

~~~
mc32
US states are like Chinese provinces. We know about our states, they know
about their provinces and we both know a little bit about the countries we
have ties to. US and Europe and the Americas, China and East Asia/pac rim and
a bit of Africa.

Basically, smaller countries study more about their surroundings more and
bigger countries have more internal stuff to learn.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
A lot of Americans have trouble locating Nebraska or Kansas on a map. I’m sure
a lot of Chinese might get confused about where Shanxi is, especially since
many of them have never left their own counties before.

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smcl
There are a lot of comments here relating this to the escalation in tensions
in the region - making very strong arguments for and against the idea that
because 77% of the US could not place Iran on the map it is ridiculous that
they should consider going to war.

Let me clear this up: it is ridiculous _regardless_ of this statistic. Sure it
might be a little embarrassing for Americans that there are so many people
fired up to declare war on a country they know precious little about, but war
with Iran would still be terribly wrong even if they _could_ pinpoint Iran on
the map and draw a little dot exactly where Tehran is.

And for those suggesting that this exercise is like asking Iranians to pick
out Wyoming or Missouri on a map ... I _really_ don't think you want to open
that can of worms.

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jlangemeier
I came to complain about the graphs...

Their 38%s don't line up; like at all.

Also, they don't go into what they mean by "unlabeled" in either the current
methodology or their previously linked North Korea methodology either for how
the people selected where Iran was. With the datapoints on the map, I'm
wondering if they even had country borders; otherwise I'd think a heatmap of
the selected countries would be a better telling of the data.

In general, their visual representations of what was produced was, in short,
hot freaking garbage. Which may mean that the data is; and kinda throws the
entire survey into question.

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deno
Maybe unpopular opinion: Most people don’t have any reason to look at maps
beyond local area and it doesn’t automatically mean they’re stupid.

Middle east is not a continent and if you look at a global map without country
lines then you might not notice it in relation to any point of reference, and
as such have trouble locating it.

Knowing where a place is on map is not necessary to participate in democracy.
Most people vote instinctively and just have a mental map that there’s a
potential external threat and how should we respond to this threat. It’s about
liberty vs. safety. Maps offer no help in this whatsoever.

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coldcode
I remember writing a report about Afghanistan in middle school (long before US
involvement). Other kids thought I made the country up. But I always loved
history and geography so I guess I am not typical.

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webdva
And yet Twitter is the becoming-heroic war machine of the ordinary citizen,
because it and other armaments of information allow a person to independently
participate in information warfare on rival states. Just like the capsuleer
pod technology found in the lore of the futuristic space setting massively
multiplayer online roleplaying game Eve Online. It's safe to conclude that
generally Twitter democratizes power.

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vo2maxer
The poll is telling given survey findings of only 36% correct answers on
geographical knowledge among high school students:

[https://calgeography.sdsu.edu/wp-
content/uploads/GeoEduRepor...](https://calgeography.sdsu.edu/wp-
content/uploads/GeoEduReport_Final_web.pdf)

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mullingitover
To paraphrase what wise people have warned for millenia: Democratic government
by an ignorant populace is a recipe for disaster.

We get the government we deserve, but that same malfeasant government we
deserve is responsible for educating us.

~~~
andrei_says_
I’m not sure we “deserve” the unprecedented propaganda efforts, the
weaponization of social media, the think tanks that have been iterating more
and more sophisticated manipulation methods, gerrymandering which makes voting
useless in key districts etc.

Also see the work of George Lakoff. Enlightenment thinking is a myth. We’re
super easy to manipulate and that’s where the effort and money goes.

Confident good looking people on tv repeating carefully constructed lies with
authoritarian voices and straight faces. It is impossible to argue with their
viewership.

Propaganda works.

Do we _deserve_ this almost impossible to navigate environment where it’s hard
to tell what’s real and what’s not?

In my opinion this is the result of criminal efforts to normalize crime.

------
csours
47% supported the strike? How could they possibly have had enough information
to support it?

Iran = Bad

Man from Iran = Bad

Kill Man from Iran = Good???

~~~
throwlaplace
“Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts
as a last resource pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and
happy to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing
himself for his own inferiority.”

― Arthur Schopenhauer

edit: it's easy to read this pridefully yourself ("i have other things to be
proud of and therefore i'm immune from such petty things"). i think the most
significant part of the quotation is the last part - you can derive pride in
direct proportion to how invested you are. most people (those that aren't
nihilists) have such things that function for them in exactly the same way.
it's ultimately a sublimation urge -- we prove ourselves insofar as we
sacrifice. if nationalism vexes you then i challenge you to reflect on your
own loyalties/commitments.

~~~
danans
> if nationalism vexes you then i challenge you to reflect on your own
> loyalties/commitments.

I agree, but just because the psychological mechanisms that give rise to both
humanism and nationalism are related, doesn't mean that we can't make
reasonable judgments about which is better than the other, especially when the
nationalism is of an ethnic or racial variety.

~~~
throwlaplace
>doesn't mean that we can't make reasonable judgments about which is better
than the other

i'm not advocating for reserving judgment. i'm simply saying that being proud
of yourself for not being nationalist is pointless and if you want to
understand nationalists (to whatever end -- even eradication of nationalism)
then study yourself in analogy as a proxy for the other.

~~~
acephal
Or simply, be self-critical, which is the number one trait disappearing from
public conversation, if not for the fact that being self-critical is seen as
weakness, perhaps the reason you're reiterating yourself

------
refurb
I would take the results of this poll keeping "Boaty McBoatface" in mind.

------
yutuytuyt
Huge majority of them was decently close, what's wrong with that?

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hinkley
Can we talk about how the map they chose doesn’t show Kuwait?

~~~
smcl
But ... they do. It's right there where it's supposed to be.

[https://morningconsult.com/wp-
content/uploads/2020/01/2020-P...](https://morningconsult.com/wp-
content/uploads/2020/01/2020-People-Identifying-Iran-on-regional-map-
scaled.png)

~~~
hinkley
Oh my, you are correct. The southern border is obscured by dots. On my screen
I couldn't see it at all. It looked like Saudi Arabia had absorbed Kuwait.

My brain zeros in on irony, and I thought it was funny that we're talking
about not finding things on the map and the map was wrong.

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aazaa
Why is this flagged?

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whoisjuan
How the heck someone put Iran in South America? Just a little exposure to
everyday media should give you enough to rule out that completely. That's such
a basic geography understanding.

This completely blows my mind.

~~~
m00x
I'm pretty sure this was just an internet survey that people didn't answer
seriously. About 1% of the clicks are in the water and a lot of answers are in
North America. I have trouble believing anyone is _that_ ignorant.

~~~
pochamago
Lizardman's constant [https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/noisy-poll-
results-and...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/noisy-poll-results-and-
reptilian-muslim-climatologists-from-mars/)

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throw0x1away
Everyone who knows how to read and know an approximate location of the middle
east will be able to locate it.

Not sure what's the point though? Is it to highlight how stupid average
American voters are? That's a broad generalization and just a blunt offense.

Also how is it an indicator of anything? 99% I Iranians wont be able to locate
Wyoming. So what?

~~~
jiveturkey
> Wyoming

Wyoming is not an international political entity. I also wouldn't expect
americans to reliably locate Montreal, but they damn well better know where
Canada is.

It's an indicator of the sad state of affairs, that _most_ "voters"
(presumably those that voted in the presidential election) cannot locate a
country as important as Iran. Are you kidding me that you think someone voting
for president should have such little knowledge of the world?

This is why (eg) climate change is an insoluble problem. The masses don't know
and don't care.

~~~
thoughtleader31
It's an extravagant view to say the least. Iran is one of a series of major,
independent, influential polities that have succeeded one another since 550 BC
in the same region with a degree of continuity, with an immense historical
impact.

Knowledge of it is being equated with knowing about Missouri or Wyoming,
seriously?

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rasz
To be fair most of the dots landed in what Trump and his demographic call
"Shithole Countries", you couldnt make a better move to stay in power than
this new war.

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jiveturkey
Not at all surprising. Sad, but not surprising.

How many voters know who the Secretary of State is? How many voters know who
their local congress critter is? I guarantee the numbers are similarly dismal.

~~~
jandrese
It's pretty typical for the kind of answers you get from polling people
walking around the mall in the middle of a weekday.

~~~
jiveturkey
aka voters

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dmitriid
"Ah, war. It's God's way of teaching Americans geography" [1]

And not just Americans. Anyone, really.

[1] Attributed to many people,
[https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/05/19/geography/](https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/05/19/geography/)
I heard it from in a Daily Show segment on Russia-Georgia war in 2008.

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mnm1
Not being able to identify Iran is one thing. But it takes a special kind of
stupid to think it's in Australia or the Americas. I was going to comment that
we don't need yet another article pointing out the stupidity of Americans. I
was wrong. This points out either stupidity beyond any comprehension or that a
lot of people did not take this seriously. I hope it's the latter. It's
embarassing to me to be a part of a society that is this stupid otherwise.

