
How bathroom posture affects your health. - carnevalem
http://www.slate.com/id/2264657/
======
pbhjpbhj
>sitting on toilets—a recent phenomenon, stemming from the invention of the
flush toilet in 1591—might be unhealthy

There's a Roman museum near here that has a model barracks toilet which is
basically like a modern compost loo - it's like an enclosed bench with holes
to defecate through. I guess you might be supposed to stand on it but it's
certainly not presented that way.

I've seen toilets in medieval château and castles with wooden seats on a knee
height enclosure too. Doesn't appear to be an invention that followed the
flush toilet. Nor can I see how a flush toilet would need a change in posture.

~~~
angusgr
>Nor can I see how a flush toilet would need a change in posture.

You're definitely correct. South East Asia (at the minimum) has millions of
flushable porcelain squat toilets. :)

------
strebler
This article speaks the truth. I was traveling in China last year and was
averse to pooping in the squat toilets there (they're generally quite filthy).
In any case, eventually push came to shove and I had to bite the bullet.

It was like an awakening, I had not realized how uncomfortable are our western
toilets until this experience.

~~~
jyothi
Here in Asia, you most always find both western and squat toilet in houses,
hotels and public toilets.

In public toilets squat toilets are still more hygienic to use than sitting on
the western toilet seats.

Moreover if the flush doesn't work, which usually would be the case, you can
always pour a bucket of water.

~~~
elai
Pouring a bucket of water also works with western toilets. Try it one day.
You'll probably have to do a few buckets but it works.

~~~
henrikschroder
You would only need to use a few buckets on an American toilet. European ones
use a lot less water.

~~~
elai
The bucket size is a small one, about 1L

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moultano
Sorry, but I don't know a polite way to ask this. How do you urinate while on
a squat toilet without peeing all over your pants?

~~~
moultano
Found the answer to my own question:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilets_in_Japan#Squat_toilet>

Turns out, you only pull your pants down to your knees, so the area between
your feet is unobstructed for peeing.

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autarch
"My 10-minute routine dropped to a minute ..."

Jesus, what the hell is wrong with this guy? Or maybe I'm the freak, but I
don't spend ten minutes on the toilet. Usually it takes 30s-2m to do my
business.

Maybe he should consider a change in diet?

~~~
hugh3
Yeah, it sounds like this guy has some kind of specific problem, which maybe
squatting can relieve.

I looked him up, assuming he might be an old guy, but he appears to be early-
to-mid 20s, meaning that spending ten minutes just to take a crap on a regular
basis is not normal.

~~~
sliverstorm
What if he has a good book on hand? I've been known to spend hours in there
due to good books. It gets very uncomfortable, but you just can't put the book
down!

~~~
loewenskind
If you think it's uncomfortable now, wait until you get hemorrhoid surgery to
undo the damage you're doing with this.

~~~
sliverstorm
I was a little kid at the time. I haven't had enough fixating books since
then.

Thankfully, I don't think children are especially susceptible.

------
antidaily
_six subjects had their rectums filled with a contrast solution and then
released the fluid from a squatting or a sitting position while being filmed
with X-ray video._

yikes.

~~~
angstrom
Science!

~~~
trafficlight
Only if they were wearing lab coats.

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jbrennan
Kudos to those who participated in the studies (particularly the Japanese
study). They sounded extraodinarily uncomfortable. As odd as it sounds, I'm
thankful for the lengths some will go for science (I'm going to pretend this
was the motivation).

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Qz
Can't you just lean forward on the toilet to achieve the same result?

~~~
jharrison
If you're removing your rear from the seat while leaning forward, then maybe.
The point of squatting, besides the angle of the innards involved, is the
pressure on your bum. Leaning forward, or raising your feet of the ground, as
is mentioned, won't decrease the pressure. That motion is more likely to
increase the pressure. There are a number of articles regarding this rectal
pressure as it contributes to hemorrhoids. IANAD...just my 2 cents.

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snprbob86
I've been perching for 2 years and subjectively recommend it.

~~~
naner
The logistics of this baffle me. Do you have the seat up? Any problems with
splashing? Do you do this in public restrooms? Friends' houses?

~~~
snprbob86
Seat down; no splashing problems really, you are only 2 or 3 inches higher;
only at home.

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tomwalker
There is something else to through into the argument- flexibility.

The use of western toilets reduces our ability to reach the full squat
position and some reckon this is why pulled hamstrings and achilles injuries
are more common.

When western people squat, we tend to go up on our toes to reach full depth
due to our inflexibility gained from using toilets.

This inflexibility changes the way we do things- when a western adult wants to
pick up something from the floor they bend over at the hip. Watch a young
child that has recently started to walk do it- they do a full squat with their
heals on the ground!

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kingkawn
My grandfather, a physicist, had many odd friends. One of them was a Brit who
in the 1950's invented a toilet that permitted squatting. He said of the work,
"I believe the savages had it right all along."

The toilet was never produced.

~~~
frossie
_One of them was a Brit who in the 1950's invented a toilet that permitted
squatting_

I do believe I have seen somewhere a flyer by the British National Health
Service advocating putting one's feet on a (step)stool in order to achieve a
more optimal position when using a traditional toilet. So perhaps his legacy
lives on.

(I am too scared to try and google for proof).

~~~
RossM
> advocating putting one's feet on a (step)stool in order to achieve a more
> optimal position when using a traditional toilet

I haven't seen the NHS flyer but I have seen a photo of a sign from Japan
indicating that this is a good idea (also that you should rest your elbows on
your knees and bulge your stomach out). I think it certainly helps things
(this has got to be the oddest thread I've seen on HN in a while).

------
walkon
News the laxative industry doesn't want you to hear!

------
RK
The study claims squatting is better than sitting for hemorrhoids, but what is
the effect of squatting on the knees?

~~~
eru
Deep squatting is good for the knees.

I do it as a weight lifting exercise three times a week. Please squat below
parallel (i.e. hip below knees, the bone in your leg should be below parallel
to the ground). High squatting above parallel can wreck your knees.

------
RyanMcGreal
I'm still holding out for the Three Seashells toilet.

~~~
rudyfink
Technically and nerdily, I believe that was a form of toilet paper and not a
toilet.

------
chrischen
Squat toilets are also more sanitary. I'd much prefer public toilets in the US
be of the squat variety.

~~~
gojomo
The public squat toilets I've seen have been more of a mess than public sit
toilets, and the standing area can be as bad as the porcelain rim of a sit
toilet -- a place I would not choose to step. So while more sanitary under
ideal proper use, in public places they appear to me less sanitary, at least
in their effect on all floors nearby.

I wonder if this contributes to the higher rates of hepatitis and related
illnesses in Asia -- and that in turn to the custom of removing shoes before
entering households.

~~~
munchhausen
> I wonder if this contributes to the higher rates of hepatitis and related
> illnesses in Asia -- and that in turn to the custom of removing shoes before
> entering households.

Removing shoes before entering households is standard practice in quite a few
(most?) European countries as well, so I imagine it is not related to higher
rates of hepatitis and subsequent fear of infection.

(Frankly, from a subjective viewpoint, I consider this custom to be related
mostly to common sense. It seems mind-boggling to me not to remove shoes
before entering your home. Not only does it keep your home cleaner, but it is
more comfortable to boot.

The only valid exception would be not asking guests to remove shoes, since
they may not be comfortable with that.)

~~~
eru
It's customary to remove your shoes in at least Germany, Sweden and
Switzerland. British people are strange. They keep their shoes on.

~~~
oihuyjfrgtdfghj
Until they move to Canada - then they remove them again. I always got looks
for removing my shoes at work, it's much more comfortable to wear socks.

~~~
eru
I often remove the socks, too. Depends on the temperature.

~~~
oihuyjfrgtdfghj
It's very good if you are handling static sensitive electronics. Sweaty feet
and a concrete floor is much better than nylon carpets and plastic shoes.

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djburiedalive
For what it's worth, I've been squatting since preadolescence. As a
counterpoint to the experience of the sitters in the study who rated their
experiences squatting "more comfortable" than sitting, I've tried going back
to sitting from time to time to no avail; I find it unnatural and difficult.

I always figured it was because I was used to doing it my way, not because it
was easier. I didn't switch for comfort reasons, and certainly I never dreamed
it might prevent hemorrhoids later in life!

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hasenj
Besides sitting vs Squatting, the other (and more important) issue with the
western style toilet is the use of "papers" instead of bidet (water hose) for
cleaning after oneself.

At home we always install a home-made bidet: usually a water hose connected to
the shower somehow with a mechanism to turn it on/off.

When I'm in a public place, I try to avoid using public bathrooms. Sometimes I
can't avoid it, like when I'm at work.

------
edanm
I was told once that in China, people squat a lot more than in the West. Both
for toilet use, but also just for "sitting down" somewhere.

Example: I was told that upon seeing a bench, whereas westerners would
normally sit on it, a Chinese person will squat _on_ it. This supposedly also
makes their legs much stronger.

Can anyone confirm this?

~~~
kranner
Squatting trivia: South Asians do squat in repose, but notice that the heel of
the foot is in full contact with the ground.

I read somewhere that the typical Westerner, or someone not used to squatting
for extended periods, will squat on the balls of their feet. Apparently this
can tire you out quickly.

I'm embarrassed that I can't quite manage to squat on my heels either, despite
being South Asian.

~~~
sliverstorm
IMHO it's because they are two different kinds of squats. On the balls of your
feet, you a ready to spring into action at any second- it is more like a quick
breather than a resting position. It comes much more naturally. On your heels,
you can't exactly break into an instant run.

~~~
kranner
That was just my point - it comes naturally to Westerners because they are not
used to squatting. South Asians can execute either stance equally naturally.

I've seen people go from standing to squatting position (not in a toilet) and
they don't go through an intermediate ball-of-foot-squatting phase.

~~~
eru
Yes. But sliverstorm wasn't saying that they go through an intermediate ball-
of-foot-squatting.

By the way, practice makes perfect in squatting as in every thing else.

------
TGJ
If your interested in outfitting your own house with something else,

<http://www.naturesplatform.com/index.html>

I've tried myself to squat while hiking outdoors and I keep falling over.

~~~
jseifer
And how can you argue with those endorsements!

 _I've been balancing on toilet seats for twenty years. I've broken a few, and
dislodged my share of toilets from their anchors to considerable expense. The
stability, comfort and ease of Nature's Platform is a great relief._

Charlie Walters, M.B.A. Boone, North Carolina

<http://www.naturesplatform.com/testimonials.html#Walters>

------
stackthat
I lived in Turkey for a while and almost every house has one normal toilet and
one old school toilets (hole in the floor) which hasn't got a place to sit so
you have to squat.

AFAIK also muslims prefer squating over sitting as it's the suggested
practice, also they don't pee standing up (I think this is due to health
reasons as well but can be about being clean,not sure).

I always prefer squating over sitting however when you get old generally you
need to sit as squatting is literally requires effort, many elderly people
sits due to this.

I can't imagine squating in a normal sit toilet, that's just dangerous.

~~~
rue
> _I can't imagine squating in a normal sit toilet, that's just dangerous._

Only if you have trouble supporting your bulk, be it due to obesity or lack of
muscle conditioning. Or balance issues, obviously.

~~~
khafra
Are you imaginining standing on the seat, standing on the rim, or standing on
the ground in a martial arts horse stance? Because I can see significant
possible problems with all of these. (technically, problems with the last
would be due to "lack of muscle conditioning," but not many people are
conditioned well enough to stay in a horse stance for long).

~~~
rue
The rim. The seat, provided it is solidly built and attached. Anecdotally I
feel quite stable either way.

 _Edit: the trick to perching on various narrow surfaces, for me, is to have
the heel on one side an the ball of the foot on the other. "Gripping" as it
were._

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andrewheins
Let's just say that this squatting thing really does have all the benefits
that the article says it does.

Does is occur to anyone else that instead of squatting precariously on a sit
toilet, risking a fall and backsplash on the feet, one could simply put a
stack of phonebooks or a kiddie stool in front of the toilet, and then put
your feet on it while you take a dump? Same angle for the core/legs, but less
danger.

~~~
Twisol
One of the commentators on the original article suggested using a stool. It's
a good idea, but what a choice of words!

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tdfx
I haven't sat on a toilet in years. I spend less time in the rest room and
I've also got some good quad muscles to show for it.

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talbina
The article probably should have mentioned that squatting is still common in
Muslim dominated countries.

We squat because that's the cleanest way to release waste. We also squat when
we urinate, that way no urine is splashed back to your pants, which happens
when you stand and urinate.

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drivebyacct2
I believe I saw a diagram once of one's internals in both postures. The
squatted one looked more "natural" or at least less... _"tangled"_. I had no
luck finding that picture to share though. Can anyone assist?

