

NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of gun permit holders - ronnier
http://www.lohud.com/interactive/article/20121223/NEWS01/121221011/Map-Where-gun-permits-your-neighborhood-

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protomyth
Despite recent events, the worst year for mass gun shootings was 1929. Looking
at the 2011 preliminary data[1] death by Assault (homicide) dropped out of the
top 15 causes of death in the USA. It is still more dangerous for parents to
own a swimming pool as opposed to a gun. We don't teach actual risks and pay
for it daily.

Stunts like this just paint targets on people. Gun owners will be targets for
theft of guns. Non-gun owners will be targeted by other types of criminals.
Neighbors might learn some things about their neighbors. Overall, the
incentive to register anything goes down.

edit: add footnote 1) <http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf>

~~~
AnthonyMouse
> Gun owners will be targets for theft of guns. Non-gun owners will be
> targeted by other types of criminals.

And let's not forget the corollary of the first one: It's not just that gun
owners have their property stolen. It's that criminals (who may be felons
ineligible to purchase them from legal channels) come into possession of those
firearms.

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droithomme
This will be really helpful for those that want to steal and resell guns on
the black market.

Hopefully the newspaper will follow up with a list of the addresses of those
with costly jewelry, and narcotic pain medication prescriptions, along with
schedules of the times they are at work.

And yes, perfect example of the dangers of registration.

~~~
rorrr
This was public information before this interactive map.

~~~
maratd
Sure, but the criminal element isn't exactly known for its high IQ. By making
it easily accessible, you are inviting abuse and ultimately, the political
will to make that public information private.

On top of everything, the law of unintended consequences is at play here. I
wouldn't worry about somebody breaking in to steal your gun ... I would worry
about the neighbor who doesn't show up on the map. I can rob him without
worrying about being shot.

~~~
rorrr
You're basically arguing against the visualization of information.

Just think of how dumb that is.

You might as well argue to publish all government data in Klingon, it will
make the life of dumb criminals even harder.

~~~
maratd
> You're basically arguing against the visualization of information.

Not really. The data isn't online. If anything, I'm arguing for keeping it
analog?

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bmmayer1
In theory there should be nothing wrong with putting already-publicly
available data online in a format digestible by the general public. The issue
is that we put permit holders on a public list in the first place. These are
law abiding citizens who have registered their guns legally. Making the
information public, especially in stunts like this, does nothing but dissuade
people from registering their firearms to avoid being targeted like criminals
by overzealous neighbors and overeager journalists.

~~~
edj
What's more, this may well provide data for would-be gun thieves to use to
acquire illegal weapons.

Now that they have a convenient list, they can stake out these locations, wait
for the residents to leave, and break in to begin their search for guns they
_know will be inside._

~~~
danso
Ok, ignoring the fact that this is a map of permits, you do realize that there
are different kinds of permits, right? Someone's permit could be for business,
which means the handgun,if they even have one, may not even be at the house.
Or worse, it's conceal and carry, which means if the owner comes home when the
burglar is vainly trying to find the gun, that burglar is in trouble.

I know burglars may be low lifes, but they're also kind of lazy. The time it
would take to thoroughly research a gun burglary could be sent going to
another state and buying legal guns by the bundle.

~~~
edj
_Ok, ignoring the fact that this is a map of permits_

Why would you ignore that this is a map? That's the point - the data is now
conveniently visualized as a map...

 _Someone's permit could be for business, which means the handgun,if they even
have one, may not even be at the house._

True. And your argument would be further strengthened if you pointed out that
some of these are 5-year permits and some are lifetime permits. So, many of
these individuals may have sold their guns, died, moved out of state, etc.

 _Or worse, it's conceal and carry_

CCW permits are very, very difficult to get in New York.

 _I know burglars may be low lifes, but they're also kind of lazy. The time it
would take to thoroughly research a gun burglary could be sent going to
another state and buying legal guns by the bundle._

I have no idea how _likely_ it is that criminals would use this data, only
that it's now much more _convenient_ for them to do so.

Obviously non-felons have a much easier time getting guns. People who steal
guns or buy illegal guns usually aren't allowed to buy them, most likely
because they are already felons.

~~~
danso
\- I said "ignoring the fact that this is a map of permits" because you seemed
to be under the impression that this was a map of guns. Or even a map of _gun
owners_. It is neither. You can get a license and not own a gun.

\- As you said, CCW is hard to get in NY, and many other states that are not
shall-issue. In fact, to get a CCW permit in such a state, you often need
political or business connections, which is why an accounting of who gets
these favors is sometimes called for.

\- _I have no idea how likely it is that criminals would use this data, only
that it's now much more convenient for them to do so._

Hello, you have just used the line of reasoning used by virtually every public
information officer concerning virtually every type of public record: _We
don't know exactly how criminals will use it or have any empirical evidence
showing that they systematically use such information, but just to be safe, we
will not release this information_

David Simon, a former cops reporter and creator of The Wire, wrote an
excellent piece a few years ago about how the police hiding public records
under the guise of safety helped cover-up a police officer's incompetence:
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2009/02...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2009/02/27/AR2009022703591.html)

------
jkubicek
This is absolutely terrible. This is a perfect example of the persecution gun
owners fear when they're asked to register their weapons. We need more gun
registration and exposing data like this does nothing but hinder that goal.

~~~
genwin
Not if criminals use the data to avoid these houses. Then people might
register in greater numbers. They might buy a gun just to get on the public
list.

~~~
gojomo
This may be an effect, but while some criminals want to avoid a confrontation
with a gun-wielding resident... others want to steal guns. By helping
criminals self-sort to the right targets for the risks they prefer, the net
effect on crime/safety could be negative, by shifting break-ins to where they
are most likely to succeed.

~~~
rhizome
Is gun theft ever really that much of a specific goal? Seems guns are easy
enough to get on the street that breaking into a house just to steal guns has
a much higher risk than is normally necessary.

EDIT: Well that didn't take long to acquire a silent Reddit-style
"independent-thought downvote."

~~~
Anechoic
You'd be suprised:
[http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/11/thieves_break...](http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/11/thieves_break_into_springfield.html)

~~~
rhizome
That's one instance with a very large (no?) safe. I was asking about the
prevalence of that kind of crime, not whether it had ever happened before in
the history of weapons, or theft itself.

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randomchars
The gun scare is getting ridiculous.

Things like this make people think that anyone who owns a gun might just walk
into a crowded place and start shooting.

~~~
mkarazin
And makes it easier for criminals to avoid houses with guns, thus putting the
non gun population at risk.

~~~
coryl
Is there evidence or any cases of criminals doing informational background
searches on their targets?

~~~
jacquesm
Burglars routinely monitor the obituaries for dates of funerals to break into
houses while the funeral is taking place.

For instance:

<http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20120330/NEWS01/703309874>

But there are many more examples of that. For criminals information is a
competitive edge, just like for everybody else.

The safe bet is that they exploit that edge to the maximum of their abilities
to increase their rewards.

~~~
droithomme
This is definitely a huge problem in many areas. I've known around a dozen
people whose houses were robbed while they were at a funeral. Last funeral I
went to, recently, the funeral director told the family members they needed to
arrange for people to housesit during the services. They did and two of them
were then faced with burglars trying to break in.

There are organized crime gangs that read obituaries and make it their
business to take your stuff.

If you are flying out of state to bury your spouse or parent, the risk is
greater. In two cases I know of, a moving truck arrived as soon as they left
for the airport and took absolutely everything.

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danso
So here's an explanation of why these stories have been done...this is not
unheard of open records project and several have been done before...

1\. The accountability angle is that this allows the public to see who is
allowed to own guns. In some jurisdictions where regulations are strict, these
stories have exposed how gun permits go to those with political favor or to
those who aren't legally permitted to have a license.

2\. It's hard to see how this puts the gun owners in extra danger. You really
think there's a subset of crooks who desperately need a gun yet have no other
legal or illegal means to attain one except to break into an arms household?
Is that really the path of least resistance for burglars?

3\. Wouldn't burglars look up county assessor records in order to rob the most
wealthy people?

4\. Ok, I'll pose the question: many other types of licenses are public
record...such as who is qualified to be practice medicine or deal in real
estate. Why doesn't a neighbor have the right to know if their neighbors are
allowed to have firearms? (The records are for permit holders, not gun
ownership) Gun permits are issued via government action...I have the right to
know why police arrested my neighbor...why wouldn't I have e right to know who
the police is permitting to own a handgun (especially if I have been denied a
permit?)

~~~
waterlesscloud
How about a map of compact items with a high street resale value?

That's what this is.

~~~
danso
Which kind of compact items do you have in mind that are regulated by police
bureaucracy?

Also, read the OP. This is a map of permit holders, not of gun owners.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
>This is a map of permit holders, not of gun owners.

Let's hope for a moment that you have some evidence that some nontrivial
portion of the people who pay hundreds of dollars for a permit do so without
then subsequently purchasing a firearm, so that we can't just facially dismiss
your distinction because of the effective 1:1 correlation between permit
holders and gun owners. Perhaps a lot of people hold permits so that they can
possess guns they don't actually own, for some reason.

There is still a bit of trouble. It's a permit to possess a gun. Even if the
permit holder doesn't _own_ the gun, it would be totally irrational to even
get the permit unless they were going to possess one. And the thief is looking
to steal it from the person who possesses it, not the person who owns it (when
they aren't the same person).

So I guess I don't understand your point.

~~~
danso
Sorry, but the onus is on you to prove, or at least argue, that burglars use
this information to raid houses at a higher rate than they would otherwise do
so. This is how the law and public records work. Keep in mind using the "it
puts people at risk" argument is basically the stock argument for preventing
the disclosure of many, many types of public records.

But since we're talking hypotheticals, my main point is this: you've imagined
a savvy burglar who apparently has no easier means of getting firearms than to
burglar a home. That being the case, this burglar has to weigh a number of
specific factors, including the possibility that said home may not actually
have a handgun (nevemrind whether it's easy to find).

At what point does the burglar make his/her burglary decisions based on other
factors: such as, how obvious it is that someone is home, and how rich that
person is (easily judged by looking at the home or consulting
business/assessor records)?

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dfc
Title should be: "NY newspaper runs interactive map with names, addresses of
_handgun_ permit holders"

You do not need to read beyond the first ten words to realize this:

 _"The map indicates the addresses of all pistol permit holders in Westchester
and Rockland counties. Each dot represents an individual permit holder
licensed to own a handgun — a pistol or revolver"_

In order to have a rational debate on improving gun control we need to use
words correctly...

~~~
3825
Are assault rifles licensed separately?

~~~
icegreentea
True assault rifles are some of the most difficult things to get your hands
on. All automatic (which include burst fire) weapons count as machine guns
under the National Firearms Act, and are highly regulated. No machinegun made
and registered after 1986 can be legally transferred between civilians.
Amongst other difficulties and regulation, that restriction means automatic
weapons typically sell for enormous amounts.

The term you're looking for is 'assault weapon' which is a generally poorly
defined term. Under the terms of the previous federal assault weapon ban, an
assault weapon (rifle) is any weapon that has in addition to detachable
magazines (a "clip" in popular culture), has at least two of the following
features: a folding or telescoping stock, pistol grip, bayonet mount, flash
suppressor, and/or muzzle mounted grenade launcher, as well as AR-15s, TEC-9s,
Uzis, and AK-47s - those models being specifically named and banned.

Since we are looking at New York specifically, then the following apply.
Rifles and shotguns ("long guns") do not require a state permit for purchase,
nor registration, nor a license. Handguns require all three. There are
additional restrictions on handguns that will typically limit their licensees
to using and carrying them for sport. New York has an assault weapon ban in
place, effectively continuing the expired Federal ban.

~~~
3825
Thank you. Does the NRA not consider the (effective) ban on machine guns a
violation of the second amendment?

~~~
icegreentea
Not really an authority on this issue, but regardless of the feelings of their
current members, it's really not a battle worth fighting. The amount of
financial and political capital required is staggering.

That said, at the time, the NRA supported the both the laws that effectively
ban machine guns. The NRA's stance on gun control, as well as what the NRA
itself stands for has changed throughout its history.

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diego_moita
This is irrelevant. The really dangerous ones are the video-game players.

~~~
enraged_camel
I don't know why you got downvoted, as I found your sarcasm humorous. :)

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DioJenny
Here's the reporter's info; he has a carry permit too:

Dwight R Worley 23006 139 Ave Springfield Gardens, NY 11413 (718) 527-0832

(718) 527-0832

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learn
This is absolutely sad and pathetic.

