

Startup in Europe? - loxs

We have all read Paul Graham's writings about why the USA and Silicon Valley are the best places to start business. I have no troubles believing him. But some of us are less lucky to have been born in Europe (although it could be far worse). 
And I know it's possible to start an American company, even if I have no US passport, but still, that involves traveling to the USA (with all the hindrances like visas etc.). I live in one of the newer (cheaper) members of the EU and with the money needed for such a journey, I could easily live for months (and maybe even a year) while developing my product.
So I guess, I'll first try doing it here.<p>Could anyone suggest better (or less worse) European country for starting an IT company? I'm talking about the legal part only, not living there.
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patrickk
Here's a great spreadsheet comparing a lot of countries around the word:

<http://www.doingbusiness.org/documents/Simulator_2010.xls>

It's from the World Bank, comparing how easy it is to do business in different
countries. Last time I checked, US was 4th, the UK was 5th, and Ireland (where
I live) was 7th.

If you want to consider Ireland, it's got a very 'pro-business' attitude,
strong US connections, well-educated, English-speaking workforce, political
stability, little bureaucracy, many grants and supports available from state
agencies to promote entrepreneurship, and a very low corporate tax rate of
just 12.5% (there's further tax breaks available if you are doing R&D).
However, it's expensive here.

As regards taxes, Accenture moved their Global HQ here from the Bahamas
because of tax advantages, and many multinationals have their European HQ here
also (Microsoft, IBM, Google, Apple, Pfizer & most of the Big Pharmas). Also,
from what you have said, I'm guessing you are Eastern European - well there
are many of your countrymen here, so you won't feel totally homesick ;-)

Despite all that, I'm actually considering travelling to Silicon Valley in
September to scope it out, and to try to determine if I would like working in
a startup (i.e. if I would be suited to doing my own startup at some point).
My work contract expires then, and I've taken on board some good advice from a
successful American entrepreneur who strongly recommended it.

So I'm in a somewhat similar position to you. I'm seriously considering moving
to Silicon Valley to at least give it a shot, the odds of success are much
higher for all the reasons mentioned in pg essays and the articles on 'moving
to Silicon Valley' that appear from time to time here on HN.

~~~
loxs
Thanks! An English speaking country is certainly a good idea (as I am most
comfortable with English, not counting my native Bulgarian). And you are right
:), I have friends working in Ireland, so it won't be a problem to come there
and stay at their place while working on initiating a company.

I agree with all you said about Silicon Valley. But we are already a nice team
here. We have several "hobby" projects (which all failed back then) behind.
And now we are going to do it "for real". Of course, we may be moving
somewhere else in the future, especially if we come to the need to hire more
people. But for now we are just going to live cheap in Bulgaria and work :).

~~~
patrickk
You're welcome. The very best of luck to you!

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bcurdy
In my opinion, if you're looking only at legal requirements, the Valley is an
awful place to start a company as an European entrepreneur. I explored a few
years ago the opportunity to start a business there and it didn't take me long
to realize that legal fees would eat up all my capital before I had even a
chance to start writing a line of code. Moving your business there once it
gains a bit of traction (and funding) is probably a better idea if that's what
you want to achieve.

Now, legal issues are tricky everywhere. But one thing you need to think about
is how labor intensive will your business be ? Some countries like France or
Spain make it almost impossible to fire people whereas countries like Ireland
or Switzerland offer much more flexibility.

But chances are high that you won't start by hiring a lot, right? Then, what
you need to focus on is: how easy is it to grow a business and what would
happen if you fail. You want to be able to add shareholder easily, while
keeping administrative duties under control and you don't want to get into too
much trouble if you need to file for bankruptcy. I heard Germany and the UK
might be good choice if that's what you're looking for (not very sure though,
please check ;)

Finally, if your startup will not be labor intensive, nor capital intensive at
first, my advice is: don't overthink legal aspects. Go where you have the best
networking opportunities while being able to hire great people at best cost.
And that might just be exactly where you're living now...

Oh, one last thing. Europe has everything you'll ever need in terms of talents
and capital. So I don't agree when you say that you're "less lucky to have
been born in Europe". But that's another story ;)

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_delirium
Just staying where you are now seems like the best default option, unless you
have a particular reason to believe you'll be better off elsewhere. What kind
of business? My impression is that regulation varies quite a bit by type of
business. For example, if you want to sell a new piece of hardware, some
countries are nearly impossible, while others are somewhat easier. But if you
just want to put up some webpages and make income from AdSense, most countries
don't care much at all.

~~~
loxs
I am talking about SaaS web application. Where I am now (Bulgaria) is not
necessarily the best option. We have lots of leftover laws (from the communist
regime) which make life hard, especially for a "modern" company. For example I
have to pay to an accountant (the government requires it), so that he can sign
up my tax declarations. Of course, Bulgaria is not too bad. I'm just trying to
find some better place.

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ecaradec
It would be great to have a google maps of location of hacker news members
world wide, so that we could engage in local communities

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ablutop
For western Europe I would also suggest Luxembourg. Living there is also quite
expensive ( but you may live in one of the neighbouring countries)... European
HQ of Ebay,Skype,Paypal,Amazon,ITunes are all located in Luxembourg for IP,
tax, regulatory (e-commerce) reasons.It's also easier to find motivated
multilingual people.

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drKarl
Best European country for starting an IT company? Are you talking about taxes?
If your question is not related to taxes I don't know why a country would be
better than another, specially if your company is all about developing a
product and then selling it either as a product or online as a service.

~~~
loxs
I am talking about less taxes, less beaurocracy, less stupid artificial
hindrances.

~~~
dotcoma
I would go to Estonia.

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loxs
Why?

~~~
dotcoma
Low taxes, little bureaucracy, good programmers, good startup culture (skype,
for example, was programmed there), business-friendly place, good ties with
Finland and Sweden, wifi everywhere, widespread use of the web.

The thing that impressed me most, however, was when I read that they are a
nation of only 1.4 million people, so they have to go after every opportunity
they have in order to make things more efficient. The Government's goal is
actually to make the public sector so efficient that they can fire state
employees and "free up resources", i.e. workers, for the private sector. Of
course, this policy must have created some problems in the last 2 yeas, but
overall the impression is that they are a country on the right path. Finally,
the three Baltic Republics - I have visited Estonia and Latvia, but not
Lithuania - are countries that share many traits with Scandinavian countries
and that look up to Scandinavian countries. I personally expect them to do
very very well.

~~~
loxs
Thanks, I'll certainly investigate further

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c1sc0
Does Switzerland count? Pro: stable economy, access to capital, beautiful.
Con: expensive

~~~
loxs
I don't know. "beautiful" doesn't count for sure :).

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c1sc0
What about this:

1) get a high-paying job in a European country 2) after 6 months, start doing
a lousy job & get yourself fired. 3) Leach on generous social security until
your startup takes off. 4) ... 5) Profit!

~~~
pwim
I've heard in France, you don't even need to do a lousy job. You just need to
ask to be "voluntarily fired", and you can receive benefits. If you have a
startup, you can receive those benefits indefinitely.

~~~
ecaradec
Some companies would agree to fire you on your demand, but it not very legal,
so bigger one might not do it. You'll have to get good relation with your
management to do it.

You can received unemployement help for 2 years, given that you worked enough
before (it is roughly 70% of your salary, but decreasing over time ). You can
also ask a part of that money up front, but that will cut your right.

There is also an interesting "autoentrepreneur" status that is nice if you
want to boostrap something that allow you to be registered as a company but
ask you minimal accounting, simplify registration and only tax you if you earn
anything. It's important because company are taxed more than in the US.

Salaries are lower too (it's not very easy to accumulate 6mo/1year of cash in
advance ), few peoples speak english, so you really need to speak french to
start something in France.

