
Is Anyone Good Enough for an H1-B Visa? - KKKKkkkk1
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/23/opinion/immigration-visa-h1b-trump-.html
======
Daishiman
The message from the US administration to skilled migrants is loud and clear:
you're not welcome to the US, don't waste your time, don't commit yourself to
a country that has no interest in treating you like anything else aside from
an expendable resource with no promise of a future.

Use your skills and intellect and go to countries that value talent. There's
excellent job opportunities in Canada, Western Europe and even many of the
originating countries for a lot of potential migrants nowadays. Venture
capital is starting to realize this and slowly but surely they'll fund efforts
in startups outside of the US.

I looked into opportunities in the US and the uncertainty of the migratory
status is way too much, combined with the horrendous cost of living in coastal
American cities. I'd rather look into German or French companies, or just work
remote for a fraction of an American salary but with much greater
opportunities to save money.

~~~
brogrammernot
I really really want my message here to be clear. I do not support this
nonsense but I would love for people to start very successful businesses in
their own respective countries.

One, I am tired of the notion you have to be in a coastal city to be
successful (SF, LA, Seattle etc).

Two, as a tech industry we need a wake up call that a tremendous amount of
talent comes from foreign workers and we should be more thankful of this.

Three, further competitive wages. I believe that the visas hurt the
competitive market for tech talent. Yes, at the expense of foreign talent this
will happen. It’s shitty, and I’m really sorry that it will take a tweeting
fool of a POTUS encouraging xenophobic behavior to have this happen.

Fourth, I think as a country we have to understand the real economic pain
experienced when we no longer have access to overseas talent.

Again, I hope my post doesn’t come off wrong but it can be hard to post on
this subject without pissing people off.

There will be shorter term benefits to US workers but ideally this has some
economic pain to US Tech companies and we open our borders to overseas tech
talent with a more friendly visa program and improved wages.

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
> One, I am tired of the notion you have to be in a coastal city to be
> successful (SF, LA, Seattle etc).

Economic growth has not been equal, though. I live in Springfield, MO. I have
plenty of certifications, a degree, and a year of tech support experience, yet
it's been extremely tough to find a job that I could find in a heartbeat in a
tech hub.

> Two, as a tech industry we need a wake up call that a tremendous amount of
> talent comes from foreign workers and we should be more thankful of this.

Shipping in foreign workers(and outsourcing) is part of the reason it's tough
for me to find a job. The labor market has been kept artificially loose, which
removes the incentive to develop the economies of more "rural" areas of the
country. (I live in the third largest city in my state, so it shouldn't really
be considered rural, but I digress)

> Fourth, I think as a country we have to understand the real economic pain
> experienced when we no longer have access to overseas talent.

Wages have been stagnant yet return on capital has been increasing massively.
It seems to me like our problem isn't economic growth, it's distribution of
that wealth. When Americans compete with people in lower costs of areas, lower
expectations for their quality of life, and less leverage, it hurts American
workers just so the owners can maximize profit.

Middle class jobs have been shipped overseas and lower class jobs are being
displaced by illegal immigrants in many states. At what point should we do
something about that?

edit: to those downvoting me, can you please explain why? What in my post was
inaccurate?

~~~
Daishiman
Your post is inaccurate because your belief that competition within the local
American market distorts prices is somewhat misplaced, IMO.

Talent is global. Large corporations have satellite offices, and there's a lot
of nice places to live outside of the US. If people aren't going to the Bay,
then they're going to London, or Berlin or Frankfurt or Paris, because costs
in those cities are ultimately similar. Good devs want to go to interesting
places.

And if you can't pay for those places, there's a lot of alternatives in
satellite offices in countries with a lower cost of living but incredibly
talented engineers. Argentina, Poland, Czech Republic, Romania, all have their
own hubs with substantially lower costs.

No amount of visa restrictions in the US is going to change those variables.
And if the engineers can't go to the US, American companies just open
satellite offices; Amazon has just opened an important AWS office in Madrid
and it's attracting a lot of smart devs of Latin American countries who would
be interested in immigrating to places with much different cultures or who
can't be arsed to go through the pains of the American visa process.

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
> No amount of visa restrictions in the US is going to change those variables.

Hence the growing disdain for globalization, particularly in the parts of the
country that _haven't_ been growing economically. Americans' wages have been
stagnant or growing lower than inflation for decades. When that has been
occurring, it doesn't make sense for workers to be pro-immigration or pro-
globalization, because that would increase labor competition.

If we compete against developers in other countries that have subsidized
education, free healthcare, and a lower standard of living, how is that fair
to American workers?

Should we _lower_ American standards to compete with them, even though
corporate profits are through the roof? Personally, I don't think so. At some
point, quality of life needs to be prioritized over return on investment.

Before you say "but it increases the quality of life of that foreigner," we
don't live in a global government. I feel that our economy should be
controllable by our government, and our government has no control over the
economy or laws of another country.

~~~
addicted
Yeah. Clearly the way to improve this situation is to get rid of the
immigrants and reduce taxes on the corporations and the richest. Clearly.

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
I said nothing about taxes. Also, sarcasm does nothing to advance the
conversation. If you see logical flaws in my thinking, please teach me.
However, snide comments do nothing but reinforce preexisting thought
processes.

------
addicted
I am not sure I understand why the HN commenteriat believes that reducing
immigrant software developers will raise wages while it simultaneously
believes that remote work is as good, if not better, than working in an
office?

Some possibilities I have thought of: 1) The people responding in both cases
are different 2) Cognitive dissonance 3) They think companies are irrational
and so will not opt for remote work even if it's better and several times
cheaper

Basically I don't understand why people think a company will be willing to
hire person A at a salary of $150k + Benefits cost + office space + 20k direct
legal fees related to immigration (+ additional fees to now needing a legal
department), but not be willing to hire the exact same person for $50k total
except have them work remotely. And that same worker is actually happier with
a better standard of living with the 50k.

~~~
hkmurakami
The inconsistency in the logic is accompanied by a consistency in self
interest.

------
bjourne
The Americans have choosen the xenophobic route. As is their right. We who are
not Americans can complain, but in the end it is their country, their rules.

~~~
keiferski
As an American, please don’t hold fast to this opinion. Yes, a significant
portion of the population is sympathetic to such ideas. But only 19% of the
population voted for Trump, and a significant amount of that 19% voted for
reasons that have nothing to do with immigration.

So yes, the ~10% of the population that is anti-immigrant is in power. It’s
unfortunate, but it will get better

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
There's varying degrees of "anti-immigration." I'd be very willing to bet that
there's a larger support for deportation of illegal immigrants than 10%, and
those who know anything about H1-B visa issues would mostly be for reform of
that program at very least.

When forming political generalizations of the country, keep in mind that there
are massive cultural differences between regions of the country. Just because
you don't know of many people against illegal immigration doesn't mean other
states don't have that majority opinion.

~~~
keiferski
I'm from a small town in rural Pennsylvania ("conservative territory"),
subsequently lived in NYC, LA, SF, and other cities scattered around the
country ("liberal territory"), and now live in Europe. I'd say I have an
accurate opinion of the general lay of the land.

But yes, in general you are right. There is no "America." NYC is as different
to rural Oklahoma as Paris is to Odessa (Ukraine.)

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rurban
Those earning >90k are, which includes all Europeans to chose that historic
adventure, whilst all Asians who will earn less are excluded. Which matches
the demands of the American workers, who don't want to replaced by cheap
unskilled labour from overseas.

>60% of H1-B visas are a fraud and the new limits try to catch the
fraudulents.

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win_ini
Uh, do you know how to mine coal? Do you have a new way of making it "clean"?
Because those are the people we are looking for to make us great again...
we're smart enough already, we don't need "artificial" intelligence. Thanks,
bye.

/s (I too had been denied an H1-B visa many years ago, but now have Permanent
Residency - I empathize with the writer's frustration)

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goldensnit
Tech is one area in which young people can generally make a good living,
sometimes without the need for significant college education. While I am
sympathetic to immigrants (sometimes I want to move to America) I also
understand that people do not want people from overseas gunning for their job.

------
known
Is H1B reserved to Einsteins and Torvalds?

~~~
NTDF9
Why would Einstein and Torvalds go through this nonsense bureaucracy?

When those guys came, the process was smooth and welcoming. Not anymore.

~~~
rdtsc
> When those guys came, the process was smooth and welcoming. Not anymore.

In 1930s immigration was capped immigration to 150k. All immigration from
Asian countries was barred (with few exceptions). Oh and US deported 400k
Mexicans, as well.

I think we'd want to pick a different time period to show the friendliness of
US immigration. Otherwise we are proving the opposite argument that even with
an unwelcoming and xenophobic policy the best and brightest were still able to
immigrate.

~~~
NTDF9
AFAIK, Einstien was neither Mexican nor Asian.

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j7ake
Would it be possible to get statistics of people of similar application
strength and see if they separate by certain factors such as sex, nationality
, or race ?

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didibus
I'm really not in favour of these initiatives, but I'd like to posit maybe
it's because he was skilled in law and business?

What are others thoughts?

~~~
dmode
Skilled in business is a valid H1B category.

~~~
rdtsc
It's a category, but was there a shortage in US at the point in time when the
application was made.

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danjoc
Spys always have impeccable credentials. Think of how much damage one Chinese
Anthony Levandowski could do.

