
Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city - blue_devil
https://www.carbonbrief.org/solar-now-cheaper-than-grid-electricity-in-every-chinese-city-study-finds
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B2oka
Fundamental problem of this type of article: comparing $/kWh across energy
sources without accounting for energy dispatchability.
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispatchable_generation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispatchable_generation))
See people commenting on Germany and Portugal situations or articles by this
man ([https://medium.com/@oliviercorradi](https://medium.com/@oliviercorradi))

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stefan_
Yes. There are times in the German power grid when you can get paid for
consuming (green) electricity!

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llampx
Charging an EV sounds like the best way of taking advantage of that.

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Scoundreller
Too bad the grid is too dumb to let end-users actually get these prices.

And the distribution and transmission prices are usually fixed. But I think
they should float with supply and demand too: the drivers of upgrades and
failures are the peak-time users of capacity.

That’s what we do with data, don’t know why we don’t do it with electrons.

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toomuchtodo
Some EV manufacturers are ahead of the game.

[https://electrek.co/wp-
content/uploads/sites/3/2017/02/contr...](https://electrek.co/wp-
content/uploads/sites/3/2017/02/controllable-charge-laod.png)

~~~
Scoundreller
My fear is some grid will sign an exclusive deal with XYZ company when they
should really just expose the prices and markets to end-users.

Why yes, my intelligent electricity agent would like my dryer to book 2 kWh at
4AM-5AM with a 4cent penalty to me if you cancel.

Most of my loads are thermal, and I have lots of thermal banking available. If
electricity prices are negative, run my A/C full tilt.

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toomuchtodo
I encourage you to engage with and work with legislators in your jurisdiction
to ensure open market exchanges exist, and that utility and consumer signaling
are open standards.

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perfunctory
> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the
> time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save
> money, but people are not jumping to do it.”

That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be
a little nudge from the government.

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piotr1212
I live in a large apartment building in the Netherlands, during the last home
owners association meeting we discussed installing solar panels. The problem
is the huge uncertainty the government creates. At the moment it is allowed to
just deduct the amount of power you create from the amount you use and pay for
the remainder. This way the government does not collect energy tax on the
energy you create from your solar, thus they treat this as a subsidy. They
announced that this subsidy will end by 2023, it is not clear how things will
be after that time. Most of the home owners agreed that the risk they will
change it into a regulation that will be (financially) bad for us is too large
so we are not installing them until there is more clear.

But even then, the government changes at least every 4 years, how am I
supposed to make a long term investment - (solar takes about 10 years for
return on investment around here, with current regulation) - if I don't know
if I will be screwed by the next administration? Especially now that the
support for the "climate change denial party" is growing.

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ollie87
A climate change denial party in the NETHERLANDS OF ALL PLACES?!

Wow, I hope they like being under water.

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krageon
It is a strategic denial. The Dutch government is (and has always been) as
underhanded as possible when it can bring them profits. In this case the
profits are in ignoring what is right and exploiting everyone else, a
tradition that they have embraced for a very long time.

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concerned_user
From engineering standpoint it is not an easy task to balance random load that
comes and goes from solar, centralized solar plants is one thing but panels on
the roof is another. While electricity is abundant running the grid is not
such an easy task as it may seem. So this might explain why there is such push
back from utility companies against uncontrolled user solar devices connected
to their grid.

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supermatt
what does "balance the random load" mean in an engineering context? i would
have thought electricity would balance itself?

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cogman10
Solar does weird things to the baseload.

Before solar, utility companies would install baseload plants (nuclear, coal,
AFAIK) which output power at a constant rate for cheap. The idea is that your
baseload plants would provide power right up to the trough of the demand
curves.

Solar causes that trough to deepen but doesn't get rid of the peaks (see duck
curve). That forces power companies to close down baseload plants, but add
peaker plants (usually natural gas) which are generally more expensive to
operate.

This is where grid storage enters for a green grid. It brings two benefits, it
can raise the demand trough making baseload plants attractive. It can also
drop the demand peak, decreasing the need for additional peakers plants.

The problem is that we don't have a lot of viable storage options. Best case
for a region is having a lot of hydro available. Pumped hydro would make
sense, but there aren't many places where you can install it (it requires a
lot of water, land, local buy-in). Batteries work, but have cycle limitations.
You could do flywheels, but they are expensive for the power stored. Heck, one
even seen "fill a pit with gravel, heat it up, boil water during peaks to
generate power". Which may make sense, particularly for colder regions where
that heat could also heat housing.

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bamboozled
This little gem has been exceeding expectations from the day it went into
service: [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-
australia-42190358](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-42190358)

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chiefalchemist
This isn't meant to be troll-y / snark-y, but if the USA factored out
subsidies for Big Oil, and then added in the military costs associated with
keeping the oil flowing, that would make solar look much more attractive.

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mc32
Even if we become energy independent from ME oil, which we’re net independent
I think, (and about 90% on the crude side?) then we still have Japan, Europe
and many parts in Asia which need uninterrupted oil supplies from the ME.

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angstrom
It's easy to ignore. Just as easy as 2003 when the American empire secured the
ME oil unilaterally from Iraq by ousting Saddam while all other powers made no
retaliation for the move other than strong condemnation which is really the
same thing. No one liked it, but no one was really going to lift a finger to
prevent it.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Off...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Official_condemnation)

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consumer451
Even that purported rationale for the second invasion of Iraq was false. “We”
secured that Iraqi oil to export it mostly to Asia.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry_in_Iraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry_in_Iraq)

~~~
chiefalchemist
It doesn't matter where it goes per se, as much as who controls it. Oil (read:
the price of) is a weapon. Look what the crash (of the price of crude) did to
Venezuela. If energy (read: oil) is essential to your economy then you can't
let someone else yo-yo the price at will.

And thus, the first foreign country for POTUS DJT to visit was Saudi Arabia.

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microcolonel
This is the framing chosen by state propagandists.

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rolltiide
Nothing in China is real and all the citizens are brainwashed about every
topic with no accuracy whatsoever.

Remember when it was leaders from communist countries believing the US
supermarkets were fake?

I think it would be more productive to dissect the particular nuances of this
issue, as other comments have

