

What’s Your Permanent Age? (2007) - suprgeek
http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/03/whats_your_perm.html

======
DanielStraight
I almost didn't post this because it's (extremely) long, rambling, and sounds
more dogmatic than intended. But if anyone can get anything at all from it,
then I'll be glad I posted it, so I'm going to take that chance. I'm just
trying to start a discussion, not convince anyone of anything.

First, no matter how much you press me, I'm not going to say I have a
permanent age. I recognize far too much change in myself in just the last 5
years to assume that anything will stay constant for the next (hopefully) 50
or more.

More importantly, the comment that Scott Adams is trying to shove people into
categories is missing something fundamental: People willingly assign
themselves a permanent age all the time.

As a commenter on Scott Adams post hinted at, this question is really about
our biases of particular ages and how we want to position ourselves relative
to our chronological peers.

I think there is something narcissistic about saying you aren't really the age
you are. You're saying that you're different. That you're really more mature
(if you're claiming an older age) or that you've hung on to more of your youth
(if you're claiming a younger age). Almost everyone feels that they're mature
or youthful or both. Thinking you're different is perhaps the least different
thing you can do. See: <http://xkcd.com/610/>

The article Advice For Young People linked by itmag resonates with me too,
but...

"If I was young today, I’d commit to spending a couple hours every single day
on building something."

No you wouldn't. If you were young today, you wouldn't know what you know now,
so you'd probably spend your youth exactly as you spent it the first time.

And yet even with your misspent youth, you turned out fine. Apparently fine
enough to offer advice on how to spend your youth. So why would others with
misspent youths not turn out just as well as you did?

In fact, maybe not spending a couple hours every single day building something
in your youth is what made you so passionate about building something now.
Maybe, paradoxically, not building something in your youth is precisely why
you're recommending building something in your youth.

See also, this post (
[http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/12/whats_the_difference_...](http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/12/whats_the_difference_between_a.html)
):

 _"'Good' parenting, apparently, is trying techniques on your kid that were
never used on you, even though you still turned out just fine. 'I think TV is
bad, I won't let my kids watch it.' Outstanding. But how do you explain how
you watched 5 hours of TV a day for thirteen years straight and still turned
out ok? Think it over for a moment. You'll never admit the answer: because
you're different. You succeeded despite the TV.

But look around: everyone you know over 30 also did fine despite the TV, no
lawyer ever says, 'Your Honor, my client saw every episode of Bosom Buddies
and McHale's Navy, I move for dismissal.' Which is why I am telling you: TV is
bad for the kid, but that thinking is much worse.

So too: sugary cereals, bullying, Playboys. None of those things are good for
kids, I am not saying to expose your kids to them. But thinking that they will
be worse for your kids than they were for you is the fundamental, narcissistic
error of parenting. 'My kids are weaker than me.' Then humanity is doomed."_

No one likes making mistakes or missing opportunities, but even with your
mistakes and missed opportunities, you're smart enough to recognize your
mistakes and missed opportunities and learn from them. Maybe even _because of_
your mistakes.

I've drifted from the original topic, but what I'm trying to say is that
distancing yourself from your chronological peers because you feel you're
different could be harmful.

If there is one universal truth I can recognize in my life, it is that
assumptions I make about people are wrong. I assumed people who partied all
the time in college were immature, but drunks and druggies (intentionally
referring to them in the way I first thought about them) have often ended up
being the people I relied on in one way or another.

People I've assumed would never fall have fallen. And then when I assumed they
were actually bad people, they turned out to be good people just with faults.

People I've assumed would never get their act together have left me in the
dust... and then fallen again and shown that they still have faults.

We all deal with balancing youth and maturity. We all have things about our
past selves we regret and things we wish we could get back. We all have things
we hope for the future and things we fear.

Think holistically about the claim of being 18 or 35 or 70 permanently. Those
claiming to be 18 forever aren't claiming everything about 18. They're cherry-
picking. It's just like what came up on HN before about why Europe sometimes
seems to Americans to be better in every way. Because we cherry-pick. We take
the best features of each country and ignore all the bad ones. People claiming
a particular age are taking the best features and ignoring all the bad ones.
But the good and the bad are equally part of being that age.

I guess what I want to leave with is this:

We have more in common that different. All of us. From a 4-year old Japanese
kid to an 70-year old tribal leader in the Amazon.

And more importantly, we all have something to offer each other. If you give
them a chance, most people will turn out to be better, or at least more
interesting and nuanced, than you first imagined.

~~~
hrktb
Just resonating on one point

 _> I think there is something narcissistic about saying you aren't really the
age you are. You're saying that you're different. That you're really more
mature (if you're claiming an older age) or that you've hung on to more of
your youth (if you're claiming a younger age). Almost everyone feels that
they're mature or youthful or both. _

I would read the OP rumbling more as "Everyone has an age it longs to match"
and not as if you fooled yourself thinking you're not your age.

Having your eternal age at 40 would mean, holding yourself to the standard of
your ideal 40 something man/woman for the most of your life. That would also
mean trying hard to meet this standard for 40 years, swallow your
disapointment when you reach your 40s and are still far from the image you had
of it, and using the rest of your years to reach this ideal afterwards.

This is of course an naive and exagerated view, and as usual with Scott Adams
the idea is just to have thoughts provoked by the assertion. But the idea of a
"perfect" age you long to match rings true enough to my ears.

------
suprgeek
How about a fun little App based on this idea? Inputs: Things that you enjoy,
your leisure preferences, What instinctively draws you etc.

Outputs: Your permanent age (in a humorous way) + Share on FB/Twitter

~~~
DHowett
I'm sure you've been preempted by about fourteen different quizzes on three
different quiz generator services. :P

------
itmag
I'm 25 but I feel alienated from my age peers. Probably not uncommon here.

I resonate well with this kind of thing: <http://tynan.com/youngpeople>

------
akg
Interesting, but not sure I agree. I find that life changes in unexpected
ways. As humans, we adapt to those drastic sudden changes and learn and grow
from that experience; and as your perspectives change so do you.

I know for me, my "permanent" age changed quite a bit when I started traveling
to other countries and interacted with people from other cultures. The world
is so full of enriching experiences, why limit yourself to the ideologies of a
single age?

~~~
SatvikBeri
There's an idea called "Self-concept", which is basically the collection of
thoughts that make up your core identity. Eg "I am an American, Democratic
Stanford Graduate." Note that these attributes don't have to be comprehensive,
or even true-they're just the core beliefs you have about yourself.

Self-concept changes, but rarely, and usually more due to a few big
experiences than over time. So in "permanent age" terms, you're more likely to
go from 42 to 18 or 12 to 26, than you are to go from 42 to 43.

------
jhamburger
I'm 29 right now, and that feels about right for my permanent age. I always
felt a little out of place with the pace of life when I was younger, I like
having stable relationships and a reasonable balance between career and social
life. I like being comfortable with money and being able to travel and do what
I want. At the same time, I'm not anxious to have a family and sacrifice so
much of my time.

------
janus
I'm in my twenties but I feel much older. I've been working in software
development for a few years, part time, earning a good salary for my age and
area, and dreaming of going solo and being independent.

The only problem with my current life is that even though I can say I'm happy
(with my family and girlfriend), I can't socialize with most people my age,
because they are in a different state of mind (only thinking about partying,
the girl they hooked up last weekend, etc)

~~~
guard-of-terra
That's not the problem with people of your age. That's the problem with the
people you picked up as your friends.

Consider changing them to another set, you might be happier. Try choosing
people with a serious hobby, they tend to be deeper.

~~~
philbarr
I've seen this "change your friends" thing before, when it is perceived that
they are holding you back. Is it me, or does this not seem a little callous?

I've worked hard to get where I am now, and I've got a good s/w dev job, and
am working towards having my own s/w company etc. And it takes a long time and
it's hard but I still do it because I've a clear vision of where I want to be.
But my friends aren't like that. Mostly they have jobs that they do only for
the money, and aren't driven to put the extra effort in outside of work in
order to get where they would prefer to be.

I have quite a few friends (I like to think!), and I'm not friends with them
because they further my own selfish ends, I'm friends with them because
they're good people to be around, they're funny and witty, and we're pretty
much guaranteed a good laugh when we get together. I couldn't imagine
deliberately splitting away from them in order to meet more business-minded
people.

Surely if you "choose" friends (because making good friends is really as easy
as saying, "I'll have you, you, and you") solely for selfish means then you're
not being a good friend to anyone. Although I do want to make money and be
rich and run my own company, I have no interest in being the next Tim Ferris
(author of The 4 Hour Work Week), who I see as being the personification of
self-interest.

This is not meant as a criticism, only that I think that we should be careful
with the "change your friends" advice. Good friends are as much an investment
of your time and energy as anything else.

~~~
anamax
> Good friends are as much an investment of your time and energy as anything
> else.

Absolutely. So, what is the ROI on your investment? And, do you understand
what "sunk costs" means?

> I couldn't imagine deliberately splitting away from them in order to meet
> more business-minded people.

Then don't. However, the consequences of your choices don't depend on whether
you want said consequences.

While you're at it, look up "false dilemma". Your current friends and
"business-minded people" aren't the only options.

~~~
philbarr
Is it really necessary to look at friends in terms of "ROI"? Should I
calculate the ROI for each friend? And if a particular friend falls below
his/her expected "return" (however that's calculated) then do I ditch them?

> Your current friends and "business-minded people" aren't the only options.

I agree, I inferred that these were the only two options from the "change your
friends" advice. I wanted to highlight the importance of having a good set of
people around you, and that aiming _only_ for business-minded people is
probably a bad idea (in my opinion). Especially since I've seen this advice
handed out more than once on this forum and others.

~~~
drumdance
How about HOI - happiness on investment. If you're happy with your social
life, don't change it. If you aren't, then why the hell are you repeating the
patterns that got you there?

------
grusk
I often feel like I'm a 12-year-old trying to operate an overgrown body. Youth
has passed me by. My intellectual prime was when I was 12-14. That's when I
started questioning the concept of god, contemplated existence, the universe,
the purpose, function, and meaning of life, and made up my core philosophical
and political beliefs influenced by John Lennon. I still secretly read young
adult fiction from time to time.

I don't think anyone really grows up - people just get older. Adults are just
kids with money. The difference between men and boys is the price of their
toys, as the saying goes. I never feel any different on my birthday.

“I don’t know if I’ve come of age, but I’m certainly older now. I feel
shrunken. As if there’s a tiny, ancient Oliver Tate inside me operating the
levers of a life sized Oliver-shaped shell. A shell on which a decrepit
picture show replays the same handful of images.” — Oliver Tate, Submarine

~~~
tete
I just wanted to say that I really liked that sentence:

"Adults are just kids with money."

It's funny, yet true.

I also think my intellectual prime was around that age, even if I never read
young adult fiction. Well, in school maybe.

------
drumdance
When I was in my early twenties people said they thought I was much older
because I came across as very mature. I liked being told that.

Now I'm 43 and I feel like I'm 25. I'm much more likely to go out and do stuff
that 25 year olds do than guys my age who are married and have kids.

It's partly a function of being single, but it's also because a few years ago
I realized there were a lot of things I still wanted to experience and I was
letting life slip me by.

Also, I've seen a lot of people my age start to let themselves go physically,
which is having an impact on the way they go about their lives. I committed
seriously to fitness a couple years ago and am amazed at how much more
energetic I am, even though I was in decent shape before (decent enough that I
could play indoor soccer every weekeend, go skiing etc).

------
arien
Interesting. I always thought I'm quite the child (although I can act mature
when needed). I never thought of it as a permanent thing, though.

And I don't live in the past and I think partly is because of this childish
point of view to life I have. I would think older types tend to look back
more?

------
whileonebegin
For the Twilight Zone fans, there is an episode (Queen of the Nile) where an
immortal Egyptian princess is alive, in the modern day. She lives off of male
souls to continue her immortality. She mentions to one of her victims that
she's 38. If she's immortal, why choose 38 to live forever? She explains she
chose it because any younger, and others consider you too inexperienced to
take seriously; any older and you lose attractiveness/health. Perfect age?
Maybe. Granted, this is a tv show from 1964. Food for thought.

------
lysol
This is pretty terrible pseudo-scientific rambling. People change, for better
or worse, all the time, and vary much more than the narrow band of categories
he's trying to shove people in to.

~~~
astine
It's not scientific at all and it's not meant to be. It's a question you can
ask friends to try to get to know them better.

------
zerostar07
That's an interesting subject to me, because i found myself constantly working
with different age groups (i was 21 when i was working in a company where
everyone was ~10 years older than me, now that i 'm 31 i 'm doing some
postgraduate work where i get to be with ~25 year olds). I was always
considered "too serious" for my age group as a kid (and frankly i still find
my age group annoying). My permanent age must be 35. Would be interesting to
see what's yours.

------
dkokelley
I think he nailed it with the past, present, or future orientation. My mood is
almost always set by what is planned for the near future, and I know people
who very much exist in the present or past.

This is all my own anecdotal observation though. I would love to read studies
done to explore this area of human psychology. Could there be a link between
optimism and tense-orientation?

------
herval
I'm permanently 45, since I was 15 and started worrying about my first
"investment" (rare comic books). I'm 30 now, but still feel like a very young
45 years old...

edit: oh jeez, I've read the article after I posted my comment... almost same
age as Mr. Adams.

------
Bootvis
Odd, maybe I should press myself harder but if I have to choose a permanent
age I would say it always has been a few years in the future.

Luckily I'm an optimist.

------
nilchameleons
I don't get why this is a clever observation in any way. Nothing defines an
"age" except the people that happen to be it, so if everyone's "real" behavior
is determined by a different permanent age what is left to define the age they
actually are?

Cute, I guess, and I know I'm biased towards thinking anything out of Scott
Adams' mouth is worth less than the dirt on my shoe due to his proud misogyny,
but this reads like an uncomfortable attempt to find an extrinsic reason why
he feels alien amongst his peers (and always has, apparently).

~~~
zerostar07
The latter.

