
Groceries and Delivered Goods Decontamination Station Instructions - McKayDavis
https://www.colorado.edu/mcdb/coronavirus-information/professor-sara-sawyers-decon-station-instructions
======
swasheck
The narrative is that the virus stays alive for up to three days on surfaces.
My understanding of viruses like this would make that an extreme outlier. Do
we have any conclusive data on the duration of virus viability outside of the
host?

~~~
adventured
Detectable in aerosols for up to three hours. Up to four hours on copper. Up
to 24 hours on cardboard. Up to three days on stainless steel and plastic.

The visuals:

[https://www.nejm.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/mms/jour...](https://www.nejm.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/mms/journals/content/nejm/0/nejm.ahead-
of-print/nejmc2004973/20200317-01/images/img_xlarge/nejmc2004973_f1.jpeg)

The study (published March 17):

[https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMc2004973](https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMc2004973)

~~~
ch4s3
Does detectable mean likely to cause infection or just that if can stills be
found in a lab setting?

~~~
adventured
Detectable means it can still be found in a lab setting. However I'd go ahead
and treat that as the infection line as well for safety reasons.

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gjstein
I have yet to find clear guidance on how to handle _perishable_ food that
belongs in my refrigerator or freezer and cannot be left out on its own for a
day or two if I lack the cleaning products recommended in the article. Does
anyone have any reference material on whether "isolating" such things in my
fridge for a period of time might be effective?

~~~
devit
The simplest solution is to not buy it, and only buy non-perishable food
instead and multivitamin pills if necessary.

~~~
david38
When I lived in a country without clean water, lettuce, etc was washed in
diluted bleach.

You then put the lettuce in a spinner to get most of it off. Then you wait a
while for most of the rest to evaporate.

We have clean water so I expect we can use clean water to rinse the bleach
off.

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enitihas
Is decontamination really necessary? Can't you just ensure that you wash your
hands after handling any delivered goods. For example, after receiving a
delivery of something, you wash your hands after opening it. After receiving a
food delivery, you heat the food and again wash hands before eating. Is this
not sufficient?

~~~
tmh88j
This has been on my mind periodically today because I ordered takeout for
lunch for the first time in a couple weeks. Aside from not all takeout foods
requiring to be heated thanks to wider options from services like Favor and
Uber Eats (deli sandwiches, sushi, salads, etc...), quite often it's food
eaten with your hands out of disposable containers/packaging handled by
someone else, rather than utensils preventing additional touching of the
packaging it came in.

~~~
enitihas
How can one decontaminate ordered salad?

~~~
tmh88j
You can't, that's the point. Take all the precautions you want, but it's just
impossible for some things (sushi also included). It's not like you can wash
bread either.

~~~
Lucadg
Exactly. I started baking my own bread and when in pass in front of a bakery I
wonder how long it will take for people to realize it's not 100% safe.

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pengaru
No mention of hydrogen peroxide...

I've been using it to disinfect supplies I bring home and don't want to
quarantine for a day before bringing inside, as well as washing my hands.

Is there a reason it's not mentioned? Am I misinformed on its effectiveness as
a disinfectant vs. viruses?

It's always been my goto for disinfecting surfaces... it's nice in that it
decays into harmless water, and it's not really an issue if you get small
quantities of 3% in your mouth, even if swallowed.

~~~
zbjornson
Hydrogen peroxide is excellent for many viruses, including coronaviruses.
There's a "new" generation of disinfectants based on hydrogen peroxide (search
for Clorox or Diversey brand) and they list a 30 second contact time for human
coronavirus inactivation. It's an oxidizer like bleach, but like you said
degrades to water and oxygen, making it safe and residue-free. I use it
regularly to disinfect lab equipment that would get destroyed by bleach.

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mhb
Where are the references? What concentration bleach?

From TFA: "Unfortunately, bleach solutions need to be made fresh every day"

From CDC[0]: "If chlorine solution is not prepared fresh daily, it can be
stored at room temperature for up to 30 days in a capped, opaque plastic
bottle with a 50% reduction in chlorine concentration after 30 days of storage
(e.g., 1000 ppm chlorine [approximately a 1:50 dilution] at day 0 decreases to
500 ppm chlorine by day 30)."

[0]
[https://www.cdc.gov/infectioncontrol/guidelines/disinfection...](https://www.cdc.gov/infectioncontrol/guidelines/disinfection/index.htmlhttps://www.cdc.gov/infectioncontrol/guidelines/disinfection/index.html)

~~~
amluto
As I understand it, chlorine loss is not a first order process like this. The
more concentrated the solution, the shorter the half life.

It may well be that there is a first order effect as well, and the 30 day
half-life is a conservative estimate when diluted with worst-case impurities
in tap water.

~~~
mhb
I'm curious how this applies to the bleach sold in stores. Are they doing
something to make that last longer? Otherwise it sounds like they should be
treating it with perishability similar to milk.

~~~
amluto
It’s not _that_ bad. Look at the bottom of this page:
[https://www.odysseymanufacturing.com/ultrachlor-
bleach](https://www.odysseymanufacturing.com/ultrachlor-bleach)

A few things here are worth noting. Highly pure bleach is more stable. And
chlorate is undesirable and mildly toxic. You don’t want too much in your
drinking water.

From experience, one should only buy bleach from stores with decent turnover.
Bleach from the corner store may well be dead.

------
tptacek
I wonder if the "dilute to 70%" rule for isopropyl applies to coronavirus. My
understanding is that you dilute 99% because you need the water to catalyze
action on bacterial cell walls. But that wouldn't apply to virions.

~~~
McKayDavis
It's my understanding that its also necessary to dilute to slow down the
evaporation rate. At above 90%, it simply evaporates too quickly to have
effect.

~~~
tptacek
Doesn't it also denature proteins very quickly at 99%?

(I ask because I worked a polling precinct on Tuesday and 99% isopropyl was
how I disinfected the smartcards that unlocked the BMDs for voters and then
got passed back to us; it definitely _did not_ evaporate instantly on those
cards).

I'd be interested in knowing whether anyone with expertise on this subject has
thoughts on it. The boy is a biochem junior (and in my living room, because of
coronavirus) and he doesn't have a firm answer on whether it would or wouldn't
work.

~~~
tptacek
I got word back from a infection disease pathobiologist (through her husband,
a friend): 70% for surfaces, because it takes longer to evaporate, 99% for
instruments.

~~~
pvg
Does that mean the thing about the water needed is just wrong (chemically, I
mean, not as practice)?

~~~
tptacek
I understand it to matter a great deal when you're trying to get rid of
bacteria, but it is a little tricky to square with the "we use 70% for
surfaces and 99% for instruments" thing I got from the professional.

------
Unknown_Unknown
Isn't the article forgetting the biggest factor: The human delivering your
food?

They will be delivering for hundreds of people and may well be infected. Do
you need to hide behind the door and ask them to leave it there and hand them
a tip somehow. Because holding a 6 feet distance while they hand you your
grocery/food is not gonna work.

I asked the same from the delivery guy Yesterday, he threw everything he had
and run away like I had the plague :D. So be careful.

~~~
bragh
One of the food delivery apps available where I live initially started
offering no-contact delivery as optional, after a few days no-contact was
default and I think now it's the only option for delivery.

You can't fully reduce the risk from aerosol, as who says that in an apartment
building someone didn't pass by 5 minutes before and went all disciple of
Nurgle by coughing their lungs out, but that is that.

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IdontRememberIt
Has someone seen data of virus life expectancy outside its host on surface in
a _realistic_ scenario (no nebulisation)?

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fasteddie31003
I gotta plug my favorite Youtube channel right now with this video
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLWBG_fbJR0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLWBG_fbJR0)
on the disinfectant subject.

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earthtourist
Not an expert but shouldn't reheating be suggested for takeout/delivery food?

It seems like a good idea to reheat food to 165F (74C) which is likely
sufficient to deactivate the virus.

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hkchad
This is stupid, it's a respiratory virus, it needs to enter your lungs. Get
your stuff, wash your hands. Done. This is why restaurants are still open for
takeout.

~~~
pengaru
> This is stupid, it's a respiratory virus, it needs to enter your lungs. Get
> your stuff, wash your hands. Done. This is why restaurants are still open
> for takeout.

Why is washing your hands appropriate but not washing the contaminated items
you'll touch with your washed hands afterwards?

Your comment strikes me as stupid.

~~~
jMyles
> Why is washing your hands appropriate

Sadly, it's not entirely clear that washing hands makes a difference either.
It might, but it also might not. Michael Ostermholm, director of CIDRAP,
explained, 'One of the things, people want to do something. They want to feel
like they’re doing something, and so we tell them, “Wash your hands often to
prevent this disease.”' [0]

There has been one study showing that SARS-CoV-2 can remain viable, albeit
exponentially degraded, for 72 hours on certain hard plastics or metals, in
ideal conditions in a laboratory. [1] So there's that.

We don't know whether fomite transmission is possible yet. It's probably not
the best idea to spend a lot of time or mental anguish scrubbing and
sanitizing everything, but obviously simple easy steps like washing hands with
non-antibacterial soap can't hurt.

0: [https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/joe-rogan-michael-
oster...](https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/joe-rogan-michael-osterholm-
podcast-transcript-infectious-disease-expert-talks-coronavirus)

1:
[https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973?query=fea...](https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973?query=featured_home)

~~~
ornornor
I assumed the wash your hands thing was so that when you inevitably touch your
face you’ll do so with cleanish hands and avoid depositing the virus near your
nose or mouth where it could then go to your lungs.

~~~
jMyles
Yes, that is true. And also preventing exposure to conjunctiva (thought
conjunctival transmission hasn't been shown yet either).

It's just not 100% clear whether this form of transmission is actually
possible.

The surprising part to me is that Osterholm was so candid on the topic.

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madengr
I have not been in a grocery store since the SHTF, but I’d be particularly
concerned about the produce isle, specifically leafy vegetables.

~~~
adrr
Wash your vegetables. You can also use a citric acid spray on them which has
been shown to be effective on some viruses.

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triyambakam
Hmm very interesting. As a paranoid germophobe I've already been following
such guidelines

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anonuser123456
You don't need to disinfect anything, you can just wash stuff with soap and
water.

~~~
dredmorbius
Paper and cardboard wash poorly.

For glass, metal, and plastic, as well as vegetables, soap should be fairly
effective.

