
Ask HN: Why do no other laptop manufacturers get it? - SandB0x
I don't own a Macbook, but when people ask me what they should get it's hard to recommend a good alternative.<p>For every other manufacturer - do the model names and numbers have to be so opaque? They could all cut it down to 5 or 6 well designed, sensibly named models and still sell more units.<p>Whenever a friend is looking for a machine they try and wade through the HP, Dell and Sony websites. Eventually they give up trying to decipher the model names, and whether they should be looking iin "Everyday", "Performance", "Thin &#38; Light" or "Business" categories and end up ordering a Macbook.<p>The HP G62-105SA? The Dell Latitude E5410? HP you also sell the Compaq Presario CQ61-406SA? What are these machines? What the hell is wrong with you?<p>I've owned the 13 inch Dell XPS machines. They were pretty good, but are apparently discontinued.
======
old-gregg
I am surprised nobody mentioned the disappearance of usable LCD panels from
the laptop market. As far as I know there aren't any true 16 million color IPS
models out there and nobody sells normal aspect ratio laptops either: they're
all chopped off at the top, hence only 900 vertical pixels instead of 1024,
including all Macbooks.

Yesterday I bumped into a person in the office with an oldie 15" IBM Thinkpad
with 1440x1024 resolution true-color IPS panel with 174/174 degree viewing
angle: it was gorgeous. That's the machine I want. And IBM used to market them
simply too: TXY where X and Y were used to represent panel size and the
generation.

My $900 TV beats the hell out of my laptops as far as picture quality is
concerned (I own a matte screen MBP and a latest Thinkpad). And that's just a
TV! When I get to work and stare at a proper IPS-equipped Dell I wonder if I
ever see a picture that good on any laptop again.

I also don't get those "98% color gamut" 6-bit laptop panel ads: they're using
18 bits per pixel, who are they kidding?

~~~
acqw
I agree! The 4:3 screens are much more useful for programming and reading the
web, the "chopped off" are good only to watch wide videos. Are notebook users
really mostly buying the notebook only to watch videos?

"There's simply no choice" -- I'd say of course, since consumers didn't care
when they started to buy the worse ones, the manufacturers rightly concluded
that they can kill the more expensive variants completely.

I've read more critiques of iPads that stated: "it doesn't have a wide
screen." Were they written by competitors? Or are consumers really already
trained to actually desire the worse?

~~~
chairface
I hate "wide screens" with a passion - I call them short screens instead. My
pet theory is that the LCD manufacturers like short screens better because
they can sell fewer pixels while still advertising the same diagonal length.

~~~
Qz
That's not a pet theory, it's simply true.

~~~
chairface
Heh, well, I can't think of a good way to prove that one, so I thought I'd be
careful not to overstate my case. :)

------
gfunk911
Agreed. There are two problems that compound on each other but are somewhat
distinct

1\. Excessive models. They make this look work than it is by essentially
having 2-4 customizations of the same model and presenting them as different
models.

2\. Confusing attempts to segment. Having the first step on the website be
choosing which "segment" you want confuses the user. I'll pick a segment, then
be unsure if I'm not seeing models that I'd like to see. Savvy consumers
assume that "Home" mean "crummy," but "Business" isn't exactly right either.

~~~
napierzaza
I think these companies thrive with a confusing market. If you can easily
compare two products then the purchase is muddied. I've seen this often with
different grocery store products in regards to volumes and masses on sale for
fungible items.

I think it's best to have confusing figures and specs when you have all these
manufacturers who are really trying to produce the cheapest of something (in
this case PCs or cellphones). You put the money and the marketing in maybe one
overworked detail (big screen, big HDD, fast video card) and then cheap out on
everything else. So if they want a certain user to buy their product, they
emphasize what they think that user wants.

~~~
mattmillr
It is especially infuriating in the grocery store when they "go to the
trouble" of adding conversion information to the shelf label but then aren't
consistent with the units on similar products. Thanks HEB, since you did the
math I know that this juice is $0.03/oz. and that juice is $0.79/liter. That
helps alot.

~~~
danudey
I once saw a (pre-packaged, junk food) product that was priced at "$0.35 per
100g" or some such, when the individual portions within the box were 75g each.

This is much more frustrating when they do it with nutritional information,
showing you the nutritional values for 0.87 individually wrapped jam cakes.

------
nihilocrat
I have an idea about model numbers involving gross overgeneralization:

Asian cultures have a fetish for numbers. When working with a Korean company
in the past, they would list their questions/answers in email in numbered
lists; never bulleted or simply segmented in paragraphs, always numbered. In
Mandarin, not only are the months simply numbered (it's not "June", it's
"Month 6"), but extended family get the same treatment ("13th Aunt"). Goku and
Vegeta (yeah, great example) keep blathering about numbered Power Levels.

Like I said, overgeneralization, but it's just a thought.

As for the original question; as most people say, the other laptop
manufacturers provide a wider set of choices, and they offer them at prices
people can actually afford.

~~~
rglovejoy
I always thought that they did this as a courtesy to their dealers, to prevent
price comparison. This has often been the case with stereo components. You
might go into Store A and see that the Brand X 5667 preamp is going for $499.
The photo store in New York's catalog has the Brand X 56672 preamp costing
$449.

"Wait a minute," you ask the salesman, "this preamp is fifty dollars less if I
order it from the photo store catalog."

"No, no, no," the salesman replied smoothly, "they're selling the Brand X 5667
_2_. This is the 5667. It's better."

~~~
joshwa
Mattress manufacturers are even worse about this-- they create entirely
separate model names for each retailer-- Macy's sells the Serta Supreme but
Sleepy's sells the Serta Deluxe and 800-MATTRESS sells the Serta Max, all of
which are exactly the same mattress.

Of course, mattress manufacturing is a swindle on a whole other level...

~~~
zimbu668
Build your own mattress, it's cheaper. <http://www.ehow.com/how_4809580_own-
foam-mattress.html> And it's a fun geek project.

------
grandalf
Most laptop manufacturers constantly update the hardware that is in each
model. When they do this they change a number or a letter somewhere.

Apple only updates the hardware in its machines about once a year. You could
spend $1300 on a new laptop only to learn the following week that Apple is now
selling a significantly better machine for that same price.

Traditionally Apple has appealed more on the basis of emotion and design
rather than hardware specs per dollar.

Most people don't care what video card is in their laptop, so Apple's approach
seems to be better. The danger to Apple is that people would put off purchases
while waiting for the newer model. This surely occurs, but to date Apple has
offered enough other advantages (case design, OS design) to minimize the
impact of this on sales. The commodity PC firms compete only on the basis of
hardware, so a few hundred megahertz or gigabytes make a difference in their
ability to differentiate.

~~~
thunk
Well, I ordered a 15" MBP about a month before this year's line came out. It
was my first one, so I was unaware of their typical upgrade cycle, macrumors,
etc. I was well past the return date and feeling like shit. I called them up
and they RMA'd it, waived the restocking fee and paid the return shipping, no
questions asked. I got a significantly better machine for about $300 cheaper.
I was giddy like a schoolgirl.

~~~
dasil003
Yeah they can do this because A) most people don't care enough or even think
to try this and B) at the end of the product cycle, the original one was so
overpriced that they can still make a profit off selling the refurb.

~~~
younata
and then you have those of us who buy the refurb, because it's not that bad a
machine, especially when compared with the newer one in price per what you
get.

It benefits all of us.

------
e40
Not just model #'s. Try and find a good and reliable 1900x1080 laptop. I tried
and ended up getting a MacBook Pro. I've used a lot of laptops over the years
(all Windows based), none of which were Macs. The build quality of this thing
is amazing. Yes, it was expensive. Was it worth it? I think it's easily 2x
better than the ASUS I almost bought--ASUS and Sony were the ones that had
1900x1080 or higher res. I never buy Sony because of the bad experiences I've
had with their hardware. The ASUS got too many bad reviews on New Egg... hence
the Mac purchase.

No wonder everyone wants a Mac laptop. They are simply the best.

And, I use Linux and Windows mainly, though I have a Mac mini as a media
center. I own an Android phone. I am in no way a fanboy.

~~~
eli
Thinkpad t510 does 1900x1080 if you get the upgraded video card

~~~
nailer
> 1900x1080

1900?

20 horizontal pixels short of full HD?

Why?

~~~
eli
My guess is that they used to be 1900x1200, but someone got the clever idea
that they could save a few bucks and market it as HD (it does have the number
1080 in it!) at the same time.

------
jhancock
My #1 reason to buy Apple laptops: keyboard. All I want is a simple keyboard
layout, like Apple's...no extra keys...no numeric keypad...no page-
up&down...no custom keys to control media...oh yeah, and also drop all the
extra ways to click the mouse...just give me a big touch area and drop the
three extra keys and eraser-knob.

If anyone knows of a manufacturer doing it right, please let me know as I am
tired of paying a premium to get a sane keyboard. At the moment going Apple
for both desktop and laptop allows me to use the exact same keyboard whether
I'm at home or on the road. So bonus points to a laptop manufacturer that also
sells an external keyboard to match my desktop same as embedded in the laptop.

Seriously, there has to be a market for this!!! The keyboard is the single
most important input device. Build it right and they will come.

~~~
fragmede
Wow, I'm the complete opposite. So much so, that I bought an external keyboard
with the 3 keys and eraser-knob for my desktop system. Damnit Apple, I'm USING
those function keys, Fn-F7 for mute is no good; give me a single button for
mute so I can make it shut-up! PLEASE give me a page-up and page-down, for
when I need to go up a page and down a page, I also want a home and an end
key. (Don't want a numeric keypad though.)

I do, however, very much want the same input - and the closest I've found is a
Thinkpad w/ an eraser-knob and an external Thinkpad keyboard w/ the eraser-
knob.

I wonder how hard it would be to build an external keyboard with 'a big touch
area' out of mac parts - they're both usb to begin with, all you'd need is a
sleek enclosure for it.

~~~
fragmede
(Roughly $130 + labor, judging from this part -
[http://www.powerbookmedic.com/MacBook-Keyboard--Top-Case-
Tra...](http://www.powerbookmedic.com/MacBook-Keyboard--Top-Case-Trackpad-
White-13-New-p-16958.html) )

------
leftnode
It's brand reinforcement. Notice, each time you typed those, you typed the
name of the manufacturer.

Not saying it's a better approach than the Macbook, but high end car
manufacturers do it too. It's why Lexus and Mercedes have cars named like
LS400, S500, etc. You have to say the brand name with each model, reinforcing
the brand.

~~~
enjo
Just as apple does with Mac*....In their case "Mac" IS the brand.

~~~
leftnode
Good point, they were just a bit more creative in their method of brand
reinforcement.

------
stcredzero
The 17" Dell XPS were just as good in terms of design as Apple, just with
different goals. They are also fairly easy to maintain. I saved money by
buying the "multimedia" model Inspiron with the same chassis. (And yes, I've
replaced the keyboard and screen on my Dell. Straightforward and quick
operations. I also own a Macbook, and let me tell you, the take apart is a
_lot_ more complicated.)

You will get good value, solid build, and maintainability at the expense of
aesthetics and portability.

EDIT: FWIW, Dell have had a history of using standard parts, so Linux
compatibility has been very high as well.

~~~
pragmatic
Interesting. Any other brands/models that have this modular design? I bought a
Gateway (super cheap for the features) for work/gaming. Unfortunately, the
build quality sucks. I should have known better, but I thought I was getting a
bargain.

I must say the HP's that dayjob hands out are pretty darn tough, but also
super expensive.

~~~
jarek
I don't know about the other manufacturers, but I'm ready to sing praises for
Thinkpads here. Every single part inside has a part number and pretty much all
of these parts are orderable online. Many are interchangeable between models,
though the information on that can be a bit difficult to find. There are PDF
service manuals that describe in detail how to completely strip down the
machine piece by piece available for pretty much every single model since at
least ten years ago if you know where to look (Thinkwiki).

It's not really the Apple way, but it's pretty awesome if you're the type of
person who's into lots and lots of information about everything.

------
bmj
Apple offers a rather limited range of laptops. Other manufacturers are
attempting to offer a greater range of options for all consumers (and consider
for companies like HP and Dell, their largest customers are corporations). The
codes allow for easier differentiation in a given product line.

That said, Dell seems to have the sanest conventions, with HP/Compaq offer
nothing more than product codes.

~~~
SilianRail
And having too many options is what is killing these companies compared to
Apple. Quite frankly people don't care that you have XYZ mobo processor or
graphics card inside. They just want the dam thing to work.

"Tyranny of Choice" at its best.

~~~
rimantas
Wasn't that the lesson Apple learned the hard way? IIRC one of the first thing
Jobs did on his return to Apple was to trim the product line.

~~~
whogivesashirt
Yep. Pre-Jobs, the Apple offerings were as muddled as the PC examples given
above, especially with the introduction of the PPC boxes, which were all
assigned names like 7200/75 or 7215/90. Steve did away with all of these and
offered only four core products (iBook, PowerBook, G-series and iMac) until
the intro of the Cube, which nobody remembers, and the iPod, which nobody can
forget. :)

~~~
__david__
It was even worse than that because they had the Performa (low end) and Quadra
(high end) lines and certain models were identical. Also at different times
they had the "LC"(Low Cost) series and just plain "Power Macintosh" series.

Read this and try to keep it straight:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_5300>

------
JoachimSchipper
I bought a Thinkpad not too long ago. Thinkpads have a good reputation, their
new cheap(-ish) "SL" models are very affordable, and their website makes sense
(just select a few things you want and they'll present you with a sensible
list of options).

Of course, every country seems to have their own range of models, so Lenovo is
not free of suck either.

~~~
jbarham
I'll admit to being biased since I'm waiting for my new Thinkpad T410 to
arrive, but I think the Thinkpad line is pretty logically segmented and named.
The current convention is that each segment has a common prefix ("T" for their
standard workhorse line, "X" for the ultra-portable line, "SL" for the more
affordable small-business line etc.) w/ the suffix indicating the screen size,
e.g., T410 for the 14", X201 for the 12". Of course there are exceptions such
as the Thinkpad Edge, but generally it's pretty easy to compare the various
models.

While Apple's practice of not publicizing their model names in their
advertising might superficially make things simpler, it means you have to
explicitly list the model year w/ specs to do a meaningful comparison between
current and older models.

~~~
rdtsc
I have a T60 and love it. It's built like a tank. Has a good keyboard and the
"stick" mouse pointer (which I really like). It is a bit heavy to lug around,
but it is my only machine and it is a good compromise between portable and
usable.

~~~
AdamN
Lenovo (IBM) has the best naming convention of the ones I've dealt with.
Dell's site is so confusing and abyssmal that I simply could not help a friend
buy a PC - had to go with HP.

This will be the last Windows PC I help somebody buy.

------
rit
The Sony Vaio Z series is a freaking awesome device. A friend got one recently
and it's making me rethink getting another mac for my next laptop:

[http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryD...](http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=8198552921644570897)

Core i7, 8 gigs of ram, I think he's got THREE SSD drives in Raid 0 in there (
I know you can buy outright with a 2 ssd raid 0 config but I found an engadget
article referencing QUAD ssd - [http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/19/sony-vaio-
z-brings-quad-s...](http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/19/sony-vaio-z-brings-
quad-ssd-drive-and-dynamic-graphics-switching/)). It's a 13" machine and
weighs 3 pounds.

It doesn't run Mac OS but I find myself needing Linux more often these days
than Mac. It's hard to say no to a beautiful piece of hardware like that.

To be fair though - nothing beats walking into the Apple Store when my macbook
breaks and having them do an overnight repair.

~~~
illumin8
That's a great looking machine, and the specs are awesome, but I refuse to buy
Sony Vaio. They have some of the worst driver support ever, supporting the
exact version of Windows shipped and nothing else, ever. Forget about Linux
support, it doesn't exist. Forget about even supporting future service packs
of the Windows release.

When Windows 7 SP1 comes out and Sony refuses to update your drivers, enjoy
your $3,000 paperweight. Been there, done that, refuse to buy a Vaio ever
again.

~~~
carmen
linux support doesnt exist? i plugged in Arch USB key and and wiped Win7 first
thing - GMA500 is the only problem, but that effects so many devices these
days that its inevitable a working driver comes out some time

~~~
illumin8
Uh... without GMA500 support you're running Linux in either text only or
800x600 with no hardware acceleration. You call that usable?

------
indy
Totally agree, it's almost as if the HP, Dell and Sony websites are
intentionally designed to drive any potential customers to Apple.

------
danieldon
There's a class of people who just don't get that this is an issue. You can
see it in the comments here. These model numbers are an opaque code that needs
to be deciphered. Just because you happen to have learned how to decipher them
doesn't make them any less opaque and cryptic.

~~~
markkanof
Your comment is spot on. I am really amazed at some of the comments here that
are attempting to explain in one way or another that all companies except
Apple need to have dozens of different models. It's great to offer the
consumer choice, but that's not really what is happening here. These companies
are offering confusion. Apple also offers choice, but it's a choice between
only three models and a few different configuration options. I could see other
companies having maybe six or seven models and still being able to have
something for pretty much any type of customer.

I was recently looking through the laptop section of ASUS's web site. I would
estimate that they must have somewhere around 100 different models. Then they
further compound the problem by making it hard to navigate between the pages
for the different models. I just totally gave up. It seems like they might
make some nice stuff, but figuring out which one is right for me is way too
much effort.

------
follower
That and the whole design issue.

I want to buy a laptop that looks nice, so sue me. Actually I had a discussion
about this very topic today with someone.

Any non-Apple laptop suggestions that don't look ugly and will run some *nix
variation?

~~~
steverb
Thinkpad. You can't beat the Darth Vader styling.

~~~
gxti
Absolutely. My brain must just not be wired right to appreciate Apple's
designs because I think MacBooks aren't all that pretty. I liked the look of
the iPhone when it first came out because the rest of the cellphone market was
hideous, but by now Apple has fallen behind and even with the 4th gen phone
the look is somewhat stale.

ThinkPads, on the other hand, have barely changed at all but still look like
you can sit down and get some bloody work done.

------
S_A_P
Furthermore, why is it that until recently you could not get a non-apple
laptop that looked like they actually tried to design the case to be even
remotely aesthetically pleasing. The smooth contours of my macbook pro totally
outclass winbooks in this aspect. The Dell Adamo series is really the first
non apple product Ive seen that comes close, but its still not there.

~~~
bitwize
Agreed, virtually all modern notebooks are nasty and blingy, not to mention
coated in gloss that seems custom-formulated to maximize fingerprint
appearance.

The best looking winbook I've seen in a while was a deliberate MacBook Air
clone by MSI. It was so well done as to be indistinguishable from the real
thing at a distance of five meters or more.

~~~
rradu
I really don't understand glossy screens. I can't work anywhere with a light
source behind me.

Why have they overtaken the PC laptop market so much?

~~~
wmf
Higher contrast ratio.

------
MikeCapone
That's the same problem that General Motors has (had?).

Too many sub-brands and models that are almost all the same (lots of badge
engineering) and are renamed constantly, nobody knows exactly what's what, and
so they go to Toyota or Honda and pick one of the few models that everybody
can immediately recognize.

------
Goosey
I almost feel like I should do a separate 'Ask HN' for this but..

Does anyone else really want a netbook equivalent in a laptop sized model?
When it comes to my development environment, especially with dynamic
languages, I don't really NEED Core i7s and high end video cards. RAM size
seems to matter much more as does HD speed.. But really, if I am using the
computer for work I only really need it to run Chrome, Vim, and maybe Eclipse.
My little EeePC netbook hand handle that quite easily.

The problem for me is the form factor. I love my EeePC to death for it's
battery life and portability. It was a life safer for me on my vacation to
S.Korea last year (small enough to easily slip into my day pack for regular
access at Wifi hotspots). But I simply CAN NOT program on it. The screen is
too small, the resolution is too small, and the keyboard is too small for me
to type easily.

What I REALLY want is a super light laptop with a gorgeous 15/17 inch screen
and a netbook-like 10+ hour battery life. The closest thing I know of toward
my ideal is the Macbook Air, but even that seems to have a different design
goal in mind (and is far too pricey).

Does anyone know any manufactures or models that fit this profile? I feel like
there isn't anyone really focusing on providing a good "hacker's laptop"

~~~
Artagra
MSI X-Slim and Acer Timeline are both available as 15" CULV machines - not
sure if they are available in the US, but they are about as close as you get
to a 15" Netbook.

Otherwise, a 13" Macbook Pro is also an option - 13", amazing battery life,
only a bit heavier than a Macbook Air - and much cheaper.

[http://gizmodo.com/5158557/msis-x+slim-x340-x600-are-two-
mor...](http://gizmodo.com/5158557/msis-x+slim-x340-x600-are-two-more-
sub+1000-macbook-air-lookalikes)

<http://www.acer.com/timeline/spec/spec.html>

<http://www.acer.co.za/timelinepro/home.html>

------
mithaler
You can't out-Apple Apple.

It's been tried many times. No personal computer company besides Apple has
succeeded at selling a lifestyle like they do. That's what product names like
that are for--describing the sort of person a product is intended for. Since
non-Apple laptop manufacturers don't aim their products at specific enviable
lifestyles and instead try to market to everyone, they don't use names like
that and instead opt for nondescript numbers.

~~~
stcredzero
I think Apple is picking out demographics/cohorts that are the most
profitable, then marketing directly to _them_. It makes perfect sense for them
to market to the style-conscious. Style-conscious demand gives the producer
the opportunity to make a profit through the value-add of design.

This isn't shallowness. It's very smart economic thinking.

------
jhuckabee
System76 does a great job of this. 6 laptops, 6 desktops, and 5 servers. They
lay them out on a page so you can make a fairly quick guess about which one or
two you want. They come with Ubuntu and seem fairly reasonably priced too.

------
dalore
I like my indie laptop manufacturer:

<http://www.rockdirect.com/notebooks.php>

2 models, no confusion. And it's just upgrades on those models as in you
customize those how you want it.

------
pcunite
I have been using laptops since 1997, many different brands, shapes and
colors. The one that I had stayed with the longest is ThinkPad. Very simple
lines, non-descript raw functionally, the TrackPoint, and up until recently
IPS displays. I was forced to buy a new laptop a month ago and went with the
ThinkPad SL510. Installed an SSD myself. Very nice build quality, even the
slightly less matte casing is an okay compromise to get the price to $680 in
my option. The only thing is the pure crap TN panel in the thing and 16:9
ratio is not made for getting work done.

If the reason for crap laptop panels is the big three (Samsung, etc) making
crap TN panels then lets get together and do something about it. Lenovo said
that if they had only 15,000 confirmed orders they would make an IPS model to
spec.

------
lr
Many people believe that the sole reason the Japanese car companies started to
beat the American car companies in the late 80s was because of quality. I
think that is only part of the reason... To me, the biggest reason was choice
and the purchasing process. When you went to buy an American car you literally
had about 1000 options (and that might be too low of a number). When you went
to buy a Japanese car you had like 3 options: SL, GL, SE (as an example), and
about 3-5 colors to choose from. That was it!

We can see the same thing with computers today, and Apple is the equivalent of
the Japanese car makes in terms of choice. Guess what, it works!

------
secos
One of the reasons for model # segmentation amongst the laptops sold in retail
stores: price competition offers ie: "If you find this model cheaper somewhere
else in the next 14 days and we'll beat the price"

------
tzury
I have had a macbook. after 3 weeks with it, I gave it to my wife, and
switched back to thinkpad.

She's happy with the mac, in fact, she can't use windows ever since she
experienced mac, and I just missed my linux box, so were quite happy back
home.

two weeks ago I purchased ThinkPad X200, it is loaded with the latest ubuntu
and work like a charm.

I consider this set up far better than the Macbook in all terms. I am not
familiar with the models you have mentioned though I only had two laptops
(gateway and dell around year 2000) before I understood that thinkpad is the
way to go.

------
melvin
I recently bought my first MacBook and was wondering exactly the same thing.

How can all of the other manufacturers miss the point to this extent?

Simple branding. Simple model distinction. "15 inch". Elegance. High quality.
Visual appeal. No wonder Apple has been so successful... everyone else is so
poor, and so caught up in the middle of the pack. Sony is the only other
company offering laptops to appeal to the high-end and theirs are kind of a
joke.

~~~
watmough
Just so you know, my 'sofa laptop' is my wife's old 'day 1' 13" MacBook.

Still trucking along! Great little machine. 4 years of use for $1099, and
still runs XCode decently. Incredible value.

Tip for people with multiple macs. If you want to use two at once, download
'teleport' which allows one machine to cursor surf into the adjacent machine.
I have a 20" iMac, 17" monitor, then my MBP parked on the end, with the mouse
happily roaming across all 3 screens!

------
mburney
I also agree, but I have a feeling that at some point in the 90's when "tech
geek" stuff was cool, the model numbers actually helped their marketing.

------
r0s
I know this will seem quite elitist but here goes...

 _Eventually they give up trying to decipher the model names, and whether they
should be looking in "Everyday", "Performance", "Thin & Light" or "Business"
categories and end up ordering a Macbook._

The thing is, if you don't know exactly what features you want(clock speed and
manufacturer warranty on the RAM for instance), you will most likely be sold
snake oil.

The model numbers on most OEMs are so complex because they are superfluous.
After weeks of comparison shopping on motherboards, I can tell you the
features and specs of my final purchase offhand, but I'd need to search for
the model number simply because I don't _need to know it_.

Honestly that's what it comes down to in my opinion, you don't care about
learning model numbers. I don't blame you, they are relatively meaningless.
But you also don't want to learn about the hardware you're buying, and I
assert this leaves the buyer at a disadvantage.

I know not everyone cares weather they are actually getting what they need for
the best price. Many would rather not take the time, and are looking for a way
to make smart purchases without bothering to understand what they buy.

It's just not possible, the compromises shift around from high price for high
quality(apple) to good quality, good price and no service(oem brownbox) and
everything else.

Again informed shopping isn't for everyone. When comparing laptops, the actual
brand is almost the least important factor for me, above shipping costs but
well below the manufacturers warranty(which is different on every unit).

The best, most popular brands sometimes ship crappy or broken products, this
is a fact. How are you protected from that? Trust in a brand?

This is the same for anything really, from food to cars to USB drives.

------
smackfu
There are advantages to a good naming system, but I don't think the MacBooks
have a great one. Sure it is simple today, but their support pages end up a
bit of a joke because of it, talking about late-2006 models and such. They end
up abstracting away relevant distinctions.

------
jph
The Thinkpad T60p is superb. I have an excellent screen that is 1600x1200 and
large enough to run a 2x2 grid of SSH sessions. And the ultrabay is great for
a second drive, second battery, or DVD. Very highly recommended.

~~~
whakojacko
My T60p's screen died (sob Im gonna miss that 1600x1200 IPS) and I recently
replaced it with a new 15" MBP and find it better in almost every way except
the screen (even with 1680x1050, its not same quality) and the excellent
Lenovo/IBM CS where I now have to deal with the joke that is Applecare.

------
brmore
If you must do windows, do Sony Vaio + Windows 7 ... Might have to de-crapify
depending on how you buy, but when done you'll have powerful, stylish machine
that pretty much "just works".

------
Artagra
I think the one factor is purely volume. Apple has a very small range of
laptops, compared with other manufacturers. And they have a relatively large
market share for the segment of the market they compete in ($1000 plus
laptops). Hence, for x dollars of sales, they sell 1 model - compared with
their competitors, who all have to sell many more models. So they can spend
significantly more on the R&D and design for each model, and still be
profitable. This shows in their systems.

------
lhorie
They are geeks. Geeks like customization and will talk about gadget specs for
hours. If one really cares about specs, then I'd argue the countless codes
make it easier to shop among the hundreds of selections. You can quickly
figure out what is "technologically superior", without derailing into an Mac-
vs-PC sort of debate.

Most normal people just want a simple computer that works (tm). For them, a
Macbooks is probably just fine. Anything else is probably equally ok too.

~~~
orangecat
As a geek I'd like to be able to easily compare specs across a manufacturer's
product line, and for some reason only Apple does this. Meanwhile Dell has
taken to hiding the resolution of their displays, which is somewhat
understandable since they're often the horrible 1366x768 at 15" or 1600x900 at
17". (Apple also gets credit for resisting the 16x9 trend for laptop screens.
Note to everyone else: almost all documents are taller than they are wide).

~~~
lhorie
Manufacturers generally do have very detailed spec pages for their products
(e.g.
[http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdet...](http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=dhs&cs=cadhs1&sku=320-7825))

Are you talking about side-by-side comparison pages? I'd imagine that if you
only have so many products, having a page like this
(<http://www.apple.com/mac/whichmacbook/compare.html>) is pretty much a no-
brainer, but I'm not sure this would work so well when you're a manufacturer
with several dozens offerings, dealing with people that care about what type
of RAM they're getting, or what particular video card gives the most
performance for their specific (limited) budgets.

~~~
silencio
But Apple gives you _that_ level of customization once you select a general
size and tier of computer type based on your needs and price - and they don't
have to segment a single model as though they were all totally separate models
to meet the needs of multiple audiences, cause it's pretty obvious the
distinctions between all their models. No one model of 15" MacBook Pro but
rather fifty different configurations of a 15" MBP with 2-8GB RAM, half a
dozen HDD capacities, a couple of SSD options, a few more video cards....."oh
the 8gb ram+SSD option is great for you, Pro User!" vs "As a casual home user,
you should get this Super Basic Model!" where they're both basically the same
except one's got more ram, a slightly better processor, and an SSD.

The really odd thing is that all these manufacturers like Dell let you further
customize the laptop you're looking at once you actually manage to find one
you want. But they don't make it easy to figure out what exactly you're
getting in the very beginning, and the process to get started has never been
less convoluted as far as I can remember.

I may be a geek, but that doesn't mean I have half an hour to dig through ten
thousand useless configurations when all I want to start with is a very, very,
very basic laptop and just customize it a bit. I very much like the way Apple
makes it so braindead easy (and a _lot_ cleaner). All I went was "I want a
mid-size display", "I want a half decent spec" and ended up with a mid-2009
midrange 15" MBP with my own SSD installed. Perfect. The whole purchase took
less time than looking for the right "audience" I fit into to get the best
models+prices on other sites.

~~~
lhorie
>> they don't make it easy to figure out what exactly you're getting in the
very beginning

I've bought computers from both Dell and Apple, and I think their sites are
about the same. If you go to the Dell site, right off the bat, you can choose
whether it's a home or a business computer. Then you can pick based on rough
specs and price, and then customize from there. Which is not to say you _have_
to customize. You don't. Same with Apple.

The main difference was _my_ mentality when choosing who to buy from. With
Dell, I wanted to customize. With Apple I wanted to not have to care. I think
generally that's the main determining factor when people choose a
manufacturer.

~~~
orangecat
_If you go to the Dell site, right off the bat, you can choose whether it's a
home or a business computer._

Not only "can", but "must", which is really obnoxious. If I pick "business",
are they going to try to rip me off because they figure I'm not spending my
own money? If I pick "home", are they only going to show me the cheap stuff?
There's no reason (that benefits users) to segment their products like that.

~~~
lhorie
>> If I pick "business", are they going to try to rip me off because they
figure I'm not spending my own money? If I pick "home", are they only going to
show me the cheap stuff?

That's a strawman, considering Apple computers generally cost way more than
the PC equivalents, and that Apple can be quite the cheapskate in components
also (e.g. when i bought mine, it had a crappy the-sort-of-thing-you'd-see-in-
a-HP video card and no upgrade options). Also, if the wizard-style sites bug
you, retailer sites are often more "window-shopping" oriented.

(On a off-topic side note, I just noticed you can search Dell laptops by
screen size, by weight and some other parameters. That's pretty cool
[http://search.dell.com/results.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=gen&...](http://search.dell.com/results.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=gen&cat=prod&k=laptop&rpp=12&p=1&subcat=sys%2fnotebooks&rf=all&nk=f&sort=K&ira=False&~srd=False&ipsys=False&advsrch=False&~ck=anavTop))

------
masklinn
Panasonic does it nicely with it's "Business Rugged" toughbooks (though
they're in the same range as Apple's stuff in the price/perfs ratio):

* F-series for the high-rugged 14' high mobility (Qualcomm Gobi option) * T-series for the lightweight, 12", touchscreen * W-series for the more consumer oriented with DVD drive * The new C-series for the tablet convertible

Series letter comes with a digit (the generation) increased by one each time
(F7, F8, F9). There, done.

------
sandGorgon
The good laptops (often classified as gaming laptops) are made by ODMs (like
Sager, Clevo and MSI) and resold by small boutique laptop sellers
powernotebooks, xoticpc, etc are the ones with good reputation on
notebookforums. Typically these sellers allow you to customize down to the
thermal compound on the processors.

The VoodooPC notebooks a.k.a HP Envy is quite good too - check out the 16GB
RAM capacity for future-proofing.

------
ImFatYoureFat
Lenovo is still pretty solid, though decreasing is quality pretty rapidly. I
could probably name for you their 5 or 6 thinkpad brands (s,w,t,r,... well
apparently I can only name 4) but I couldn't for the life of me tell you the
difference between any of them.

But I don't think the branding is the primary problem.

------
pcarmichael
Just out of curiosity (as it is closely related to a side project I'm working
on), would you find utility in a listing of laptops across a range of
manufacturers arranged in a way that would make comparisons of CPU/LCD/hard
drive(s)/memory/etc painless?

------
gte910h
Fujitsu makes great ones:
[http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8...](http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=fujitsu+laptops)

------
kashif
13 Inch Dell XPS suck, I have one. It gets too hot. I don't like the poorly
finished silver on the black. The screen is too glossy.

I hugely recommend the Lenevo X200. Awesome build quality.

------
rai
APPLAUSE! APPLAUSE! APPLAUSE!

Name-friendly, not just user-friendly needed.

------
napierzaza
Here here. The same for the iPhone. It's better this year because of the
features, it's tiered because of storage space! That simple.

When I first got a cell phone I was pretty frustrated. There wasn't even any
sort of good, better, better still. One phone had a camera, one could play
music, another had some other shitty feature. What the hell? It seemed to me
that a lot of those options could somehow be bundled together? I was never
happy with any of the choices I made.

I think the philosophies of these companies is just to make a new model to
"capture" a certain market sector they identified. So if they identified many
different niches then that's what they build. Not to mention the fact that
they keep old models around for years at lower and lower prices. Why
discontinue it if they were able to lower the cost so much that they can maybe
sell more?

Kind of stupid.

------
c00p3r
Only top-tier, status goods could be sold with a boutique system as a
collections, like fashion clothes, elite cars and so on.

Apple got it years ago, almost everyone else are lagging behind.

The manufacturers of a cheap consumer goods must use appropriate strategies.
Creating a mess with model numbers to puzzle a customer and promote them in
terms of marketing slogans instead of actual specifications is the one of the
most popular in consumer electronics.

