
Pen and Paper - zds
http://plc.vc/pen-paper
======
spacemanaki
"I’ve found that having a pen and paper that you enjoy actually makes you use
them both a lot more."

This is exactly why I experiment with pen and paper combinations every now and
then trying to find something I like. I find the act of note-taking very
beneficial, both for work and for self-study of math, CS, programming, etc.
Just writing my thoughts down solidifies things a bit better, so encouraging
that by making the writing enjoyable is what I've strived for.

I don't even spend that much, just allowed myself to pitch what didn't work
and find something I like. My current favorite combination is National Brand
Computation notebooks ($12) which I like for being quite large at nearly
12"x10" and having thick smooth paper and the largest (08) Pigma micron pens
($2) which are almost like felt tip markers. It almost feels like writing on a
whiteboard.

Of course, what I like specifically isn't that important, but I definitely
recommend experimenting with pen and paper if note taking is something you
want to encourage yourself to do.

~~~
stephengillie
_This is exactly why I experiment with pen and paper combinations every now
and then trying to find something I like._

I tried many combinations of pen and paper in my early 20s, but I never found
one I preferred to a keyboard. And not the fancy keyboards either, as my
favorite keyboard is a laptop keyboard. The most important feature is that I
don't have to think about my input device, my writing surface, or how to draw
letters -- only on the message I'm writing.

~~~
spacemanaki
I agree that you can't beat the keyboard for some things. But there are a lot
of things I find easier to do with pen and paper than type: almost any and all
math and any kind of drawing at all. Doing that with LaTeX or the mouse or
something like GraphViz instead of pen and paper would require a lot of
thinking about the tool, at least for me.

~~~
stephengillie
Oh, that's where tablet input is perfect. Just pick up the stylus and turn on
drawing tools. Or mspaint.

------
casca
TL;DR: OP finally bought an expensive pen on Kickstarter; they like it.

~~~
grimgrin
"I’ve never been able to prototype product on the computer; it always felt too
clunky, too slow. Similarly, if you are in a meeting or—as I noticed during Y
Combinator at a talk—typing on a laptop seems like a sure way to miss 70
percent of the content. I think typing encourages you to write more, to write
for the sake of writing rather than for taking notes."

Your TL;DR skipped over a possibly important thought to many people.

~~~
Tichy
Do people need to be told everything? I mean, they really can't figure out for
themselves if they should rather use pen & paper or a computer for
prototyping?

Even if somebody tells them, shouldn't they still try for themselves? Maybe it
works for the person who tells them, but not for them?

~~~
graeme
No one needs to be told everything. But everyone needs to be told something.

It was only a couple of years ago that I discovered the benefits of writing on
paper vs. computer. I needed to be told, back then.

------
mosburger
This reminds me of sunglasses. Never understood spending over $100 on them as
I always lose them - so I'd get crappy $10 drugstore sunglasses and lose them
in a week.

Then I got my first pair of Oakleys before a vacation and not only do I love
them, I don't lose them anymore, and I take very good care of them 'cuz I
actually 1.) care about them (they're super-comfy!), and 2.) care about the
investment I made in them.

Not saying they'll ever pay for themselves (unlikely), but I probably had them
in the same time span I would've had four crappy pairs that would've been
scratched before now.

I imagine pens are very much the same - buy a crappy ten-pack of disposable
pens and you'll lose them all in a month. Buy this titanium thing and own it
for years.

~~~
cglace
My dad has used the same Mont Blanc pen since I was old enough to notice him
writing. Probably 21 years.

------
larsberg
> what is the deal with Moleskine notebooks

For better or worse, if you write in a Moleskine with either a fountain pen or
a Pilot G2 ink pen, you will probably find that it bleeds through so much that
you can only really write on one side anyway. I'm not sure that addresses his
concern with thread-bound notebooks and writing on the "back" page, but that's
been my experience with them.

~~~
jseliger
Try a Rhodia Webnotebook. Stupid name, nice product, and availability in
retail stores is improving.

~~~
dekz
One of the best papers to write on with any pen (including fountain). But if
you're interested in fountain pens you probably already know about it and
which inks bleed more than others.

Moleskine's are pretty average quality, Rhodia and Lichtenstein 1917 are great
papers and notebooks. Lamy Safari is a great starter fountain pen.

------
xfax
I've tried fountain pens and have never been satisfied. Perhaps it's my left-
handedness or the inferior quality of the paper I use, but it never felt
"natural".

I frequently purchase ballpoint and gel pens from JetPens.com and am
particularly fond of the Pilot Hi-Tec-C: [http://www.jetpens.com/Pilot-Hi-Tec-
C-Gel-Ink-Pen-0.4-mm-Bas...](http://www.jetpens.com/Pilot-Hi-Tec-C-Gel-Ink-
Pen-0.4-mm-Basic-Colors-Black/pd/82)

What are some of your <$10 pens that you frequently go back to?

~~~
dekz
Not exactly sticking to your criteria here, but what combinations of pen, inks
and paper have you tried? If you ever want to get back into trying fountain
pens, then you are unfortunately going to have to find quicker drying ink and
paper to put up the with potential smudges.

Fountainpen-network is a great resource where members frequently post reviews
of various inks and papers, incorporating drying time for lefties.

I have been using a Lamy Safari with J Herbert ink for the past few months and
it has been great.

~~~
adventureloop
I have to chime in and exclaim the brilliance of the Lammy Safari. I asked on
app.net for a fountain pen to replace my cheap old parker pen.

The only stipulations that it is long enough for my giant hands without the
lid and that it not be made of metal. (I have trouble holding metal pens)

After getting the Lammy Safari two months ago I find my self writing much
more. My notes are much more useful and are a pleasure to write.

------
lucb1e
I myself type much faster than I write, so it's personal I guess.

One thing that I don't understand is why people start kickstarters for pens.
I'm honestly curious here because I can't understand it: The market for pens
is saturated, and 3000 people apparently back a pen kickstarter (for a non-
remarkable pen) for an average of $98. Why?

I understand the value of having something special, but I fail to see what
makes it more special than some expensive pen that you can get in shops.

~~~
BCM43
It sounds like you're more confused about why people back it then why the
start it. They start it because 3000 people backed previous ones.

------
habosa
I spend a lot of time in front of the computer, but I am also very particular
about my pens and paper. When I want a pencil, I only use a Pentel P205 0.5mm.
I've had a single P205 for over 4 years now and it's never been lost or
broken. For pens I've finally settled into the Pilot Hi Tec C 0.25 or 0.3mm in
blue or black. I have two all-metal bodies for the cartridge I got from
Kickstarter, the Render K by KarasKustoms and the P1 by PremierePen. I find
that having a nice pen encourages me to write down my thoughts more often and
makes my notes much more organized. For paper I'm less picky but I like Muji
products for random notes.

TL;DR get a nice pen, it's the best.

~~~
siganakis
+1 for the Pentel P205, it's by far the nicest pencil I have written with, and
for well under $10.

Writing with pencil, especially when working through a problem, lets me work
more effectively. Knowing you can erase something gives you a sense of freedom
to explore ideas that I don't get when writing with ink. Kind of like having
an "undo" feature in an application lets you be a little more cavalier with
your experimentation.

------
k-mcgrady
>> "I do not understand why you’d want a notebook that was not spiral bound."

I don't like spiral bound and I have several different types of Moleskine. The
spiral bound break too easily on me and the pages often accidentally tear out.

~~~
ganley
Also, good luck putting a spiral-bound notebook in a tight pocket.

------
ruswick
To me, writing has always been an exercise in utilitarianism, and is done out
of necessity. I can't comprehend why having a nicer pen would cause one to
write more. Writing is not some sort of art that one is meant to appreciate
(not that it can't be, but most people don't consider marking a sheet of dead
tree matter with ink to be some sort pleasurable experience unto itself.)
Writing is something that has to be done (generally because typing is
inappropriate or impractical) regardless of one's enjoyment of it. I would
write just as much even if I hated my pen, just like I would travel as much
even if I hated commuting or I would wear my shoes just as much even if I
hated shoes. All of the aforementioned things are things that life requires
you to do, regardless of how one feels about them. Certainly, one can strive
to maximize their enjoyment of those things, but a lack of enjoyment doesn't
compel one not to do them.

Moreover, if he continues to use the .38 inserts, (which, I might add, are
great) the only added utility of this $60 pen is that it has greater mass and,
because it costs more, has some sort of innate "fanciness" value. I just don't
understand why one would pay $60 for a metal shaft whose utility doesn't
extend beyond making the user feel important or opulent. After all, he lauded
this pen not because of its objective superiority, but because it made him
_feel_ good.

I just don't get it. I think I'll stick with my Pilot G2s.

~~~
xfax
Your argument applies to eating as well, yet people derive pleasure from food
that goes beyond the act of nourishing their bodies.

Beauty, as they say, is in the eyes of the beholder.

~~~
ruswick
You don't understand my point. I agree that one can try to derive pleasure
from such things. I know I do. But that pleasure doesn't encourage people to
eat more, and a lack of pleasure doesn't compel you not to eat. The pursuit of
pleasure exists independent of necessity.

Even if you couldn't afford lavish meals, you would still eat what you could
afford, because eating is a necessity. You wouldn't starve yourself just
because you couldn't eat at at 4 Star Michelin restaurants every night.
Conversely, you wouldn't gorge yourself just because you were at a 4 star
restaurant.

So yes, my argument does apply to eating as well. In fact, eating is a pretty
excellent example that proves my point.

An obligation can also be subject to hedonistic intent. What is you point?

~~~
xfax
Well, you made two points. One is that having a nicer pen wouldn't (shouldn't)
make you want to write more. Two, that a $60 pen has no value besides making
you feel opulent.

My response was to your second point where I assert that some people derive
pleasure from things that others perceive as mundane. Eating at a 4-star
Michelin restaurant for example can be loosely (very) compared to writing with
a $60 pen. So it's not bizarre.

To your first point, deriving pleasure from doing something does indeed
encourage you to do more of it. Even eating - compare eating a mediocre meal
at a food court to a scrumptious meal prepared by your mother (or whoever
cooks well in your family!). Sure, writing is not an infrequent exercise, so
perhaps the analogy goes only so far, but the point remains that if you enjoy
it, you are likely to do more of it.

~~~
ruswick
It does not encourage you to do more of it when it is solely an obligation. I
think eating is a bad example because people eat for pleasure, whereas people
only write for utility. People rarely if ever write simply because they enjoy
writing. They write to convey or record information, If you remove the
utilitarian obligation from writing, and make it solely an exercise in
enjoyment, you have to disassociate the obligatory aspect of writing, as well
as the functional result. I don't know about you, but I don't really see
people transcribing the alphabet 1000 in a notebook for pleasure (or other
such trivial applications of writing). When people write, they do it because
they have to achieve some end. This is different from fine dining, where there
is no end. You don't eat because you need nutrion, but because the meal brings
pleasure.

My second assertion was not dismissing the pleasure found in using an
expensive pen and feeling good, but merely an explanation of why I think it's
silly. If one cares about having profligate writing instruments, more power to
them. I, however, just want something that works well. In a pen, that is
usually determined by the insert, which is why a $60 shell isn't important.

~~~
Jtsummers

      > whereas people only write for utility.
    
      > When people write, they do it because they have to achieve some                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
      >  end.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          

I write stories for fun. There is no obligation to do so. Anecdotally, I'm not
alone in this as several of my friends do the same. The only utility we ever
get is that occasionally we turn these stories into games for each other or
backgrounds for characters. So again, no obligation since a game ceases being
a game when you _must_ do it, and none of us are obliged to run or play in
them.

In that context, I've found that some writing instruments simply feel better.
The Pentel Sharp mechanical pencils are particular nice -- for me -- vs other
pencils, like the cheap Bic mechanicals. Same for pens, there are some 5-10$
pens that write so smoothly it's like they're gliding along the page versus
many ballpoints that seem to drag along. Having a pleasant writing experience
with good paper and pen leads to more nights or lunches spent just writing to
write.

------
possibilistic
I'm incredibly persnickety about my pen and paper. I just don't feel as
creative when I'm using writing instruments that don't "work" for me. Plastic
pens just don't feel right; they're too lightweight and kind of clammy when
you write for extended periods. (As far as plastic pens go, the only model I
could really adapt to was the Office Max Tul line
[http://www.officemax.com/brands/tul/tul-pens/product-
prod226...](http://www.officemax.com/brands/tul/tul-pens/product-prod2260004)
)

For awhile I used the steel-bodied Zebra 701 and 301. I preferred the gel ink
option of the 301, but I liked the heavier body of the 701. (There are guides
online for modding the 701 to accept 301 refills, but I never gave it a try.)

I ultimately stumbled on this pen/ink combo that I'm absolutely in love with:

1\. Rotring Rapid Pro. [http://www.jetpens.com/Rotring-Rapid-Pro-Ballpoint-
Pen-1.0-m...](http://www.jetpens.com/Rotring-Rapid-Pro-Ballpoint-Pen-1.0-mm-
Black-Body-Black-Ink/pd/8162) It's small, lightweight, and feels adequately
balanced. The knurled grip is perfect, too.

2\. Parker Gel Ink. Gel is much smoother and starker than ballpoint. It does
smear if you're not careful, though.

3\. 20 lb legal pads, eg. Docket Gold. [http://www.amazon.com/63950-Docket-
Letter-Canary-Sheets/dp/B...](http://www.amazon.com/63950-Docket-Letter-
Canary-Sheets/dp/B00008ZPKT) Heavier paper feels kind of like writing on
parchment. The pen glides better, and the paper won't tear when you remove it.

It's an investment, but it works for me. Also, I never lose my pens. Once the
initial cost is sunk, it pays for itself in terms of daily contentment. I
enjoy writing and drawing much more.

------
CKKim
At first this looks like another submission about the value of objects, a la
"The Best" <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4755470>, "The Worst"
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4838109>, and countless others in
between.

However, it's really a (roundabout) way for Peter to tell us how much he likes
using pen and paper, and what advantages he sees in them over the
alternatives.

This is the right way to look at objects: suitability. Not best, not cheapest,
not highest-quality, but _most suitable for the job_.

Crucially, by the end, the strongest point made in the first 80% of the
article has not been addressed:

"The problem with pens that cost more than a dollar is that, well, you lose
them at the same rate you lose pens that cost less than a dollar."

I look forward to a follow up post when he has misplaced it, given up using it
for fear of misplacing it, or perhaps treasured this wonderpen so much that it
is still faithfully by his side after 6 months of note-taking. In short: how
_suitable_ really is it?

------
kondro
For those wanting more info about fountain pens (the most superior writing
experience in my opinion), check out the following links:

<http://fpgeeks.com>

<http://www.inknouveau.com>

<http://www.youtube.com/user/sbrebrown>

------
dowdyism
What Peter has actually discovered is that the pen market in the US is
severely lacking compared to markets like Asia. No major US pen manufacturer
is willing to step up and expand their offerings in office supply stores to
match what they offer in Japan, despite the fact they are all subsidiaries of
Japanese companies. Pilot, Uni-ball, Pentel, Zebra are all based in Japan and
offer much superior products across the Pacific.

This is why 95% of my pen and paper shopping is done online with vendors that
import products from around the world. Going to Staples or Office Depot is
like watching Groundhog Day. There is zero innovation, just the same old
office supply cabinet stuffers that we have been stuck with for years.

------
Shank
"But why bother? Why bother spending any money or thought on pen and paper?
Because, I’ve found that having a pen and paper that you enjoy actually makes
you use them both a lot more."

I found that about instantly after I bought a Moleskine reporter notebook. If
I enjoyed using it, then any use case I'd delegate to something inferior (i.e.
quick note taking on paper versus a smartphone or tablet) suddenly
transitioned quite easily to pen & paper. I don't have any special pen, and I
rock the pilot G2 Peter says he's switched from, but the notebook quality
balances it out fairly well in my experience.

------
pmccool
Some things I just find easier with pen and paper. A pilot V-Pen (disposable
fountain pen) and standard printer paper does me just fine. If I want to keep
something for posterity, my mobile phone camera has plenty of resolution. If
it's something ephemeral like editing I don't bother. I used to carry a
notebook, but much prefer scrap paper + nice, scrap-paper-friendly, pen +
camera.

------
d0gsbody
Using a paper + pen definitely forces you to focus in on the most essential
points of whatever you're listening to. Good observation, OP.

------
niggler
Fell in love with the .3 mm lead drafting pencils and the blue books from
college -- the notebooks are so small that the traditional resistance to
wasting a notebook are negligible, and the pencil is so fine that I can write
and doodle without worrying about varying intensities.

------
fogus
An observation that I made recently during a multi-day brainstorming[1]
session. The managerial attendees were, in every case, decked out with
multiple high tech gadgets while the technical types all used pen and paper
for note taking.

Just saying.

[1]: I hate that term

------
solox3
"I did not really understand the allure of having high-end pens. Don’t you
just lose them?"

Yes and No. All my cheap pens get lost in a jiffy, and all the expensive ones
are kept in their shiny boxes, waiting to be polished every new year.

Perhaps we should develop a "magnetic pen and shirt pocket" combo.

~~~
lallysingh
You tend to lose things you don't care about far more often than things you do
care about.

I've had a lovely mont-blanc fountain pen for some time now, in my shirt
pocket every day. There's a real effect on how much I write with it, and how
much that helps me get my thoughts together, versus a regular ballpoint.

------
pmrondon
To write on both sides of difficult notebooks, I flip the book upside down
(i.e., rotate the writing surface 180 degrees) when writing on left-hand
pages. It's much easier to write that way with a fairly small loss to
readability.

------
bryogenic
A nice non-spiral notebook that is easy to write on from both sides:
<http://fieldnotesbrand.com/> This plus a the same .38 Pilot G-2 is my
pen/paper stack :)

~~~
alexpopescu
That has been my combo for a long time. I've switched though to the uniball
sign 0.38mm and zebra sarasa 0.4mm which I seem to enjoy more (non scratchy,
nice ink flow)

------
Apocryphon
I prefer pencils to pens. Certainly, pens are more theatrical, with the
finality of ink, but pencils allow for more mistakes to be corrected, and
graphite smudges are less annoying than ink ones.

~~~
buzzkillr2
I do as well. This past semester I switched to using Generals brand cedar
point #333 2HB pencils and they are great quality I recommend trying them out.

------
zinssmeister
LAMY makes beautiful pens.

~~~
lallysingh
They're gateway drugs to other fountain pens :-) I had a lamy fountain pen,
tried with noodler's ink, and eventually gave up on the fiddliness of it. It
was always dry.

~~~
fusiongyro
I had the same problem with Lamy, but not other brands. But it had a plastic
nib, and that was probably 10 years ago.

~~~
Centigonal
A _plastic_ nib? Are you sure that's possible?

~~~
fusiongyro
It wasn't awesome but I'm pretty sure that's what it was. $20 would have been
a bit cheap for carbon fiber.

------
morganwatch
my marine friend introduced me to write in the rain,
<http://www.riteintherain.com/>

the reporter notebook is perfect and you can dump the notebook in a pool, and
the paper will still be dry.

------
jpswade
I'm done with paper like I'm done with pens.

------
xrt
Bic, Med, Blue, 29c. Best pen ever.

------
Tichy
Congrats, you are on HN. Marketing mission succeeded...

