
Covid-19 in Hungary: Viktor Orbán pursues dictatorial powers - nanna
https://hungarianspectrum.org/2020/03/21/kim-lane-scheppele-orbans-emergency/
======
pezo1919
Hungarian here. We are totally fucked.

Many people want the gov to make quarantine real but it's not happening yet.

The old people (they are mostly Orbán voters) are on the streets. When I look
out to the window I rarely see a mask. 10-15% of the people. Elderly people
and many others still claim C19 is fake. Orbán already has the whole control
of the country, now with that we're going to stay here for a dozens of years.
Good bye EU, good bye civilization. I'll leave to a better place as soon C19
will go away in the world - if there will be a chance for that, not sure.

Hungarian health is shit. Lombardy has something like 9.3/10 in terms of
peoples health, Hungary has 2.2 (higher is better). My estimation is 500k
deaths (10 million population) in my country in 3-6 months - based on data
from Italy and South Korea plus health data.

The worse thing is our sociaty. We don't have. There are mostly poor, stupid
people with no ability to even read, understand, etc. I am not kidding. I know
it sounds harsh. That's fckin hungarian culture based on our sad history.

It's done.

~~~
imjustsaying
Hungarian here.

Goodbye civilization? Most people can't read? It's done?

No my friend, isolation seems to be getting to your head. "When I look out the
window, only 10-15% are wearing masks". That's far more than many other
places.

~~~
dpc_pw
That top level comment is such a typical somewhat smart central European
youngster (now maybe in their 30s, like me) that was heavily brainwashed the
whole childhood how UE is soooo much superior and civilized, and the their own
culture and people are so inferior because of backwards religion and backwards
conservatism. For them, the unelected officials ruling UE is a pinacle of
democracy, while lawfully elected politicians at home are dictators, and so
on.

I was raised in the same environment in Poland, was a subject of the same UE-
love brainwashing most of my youth, and have/had plenty of friends with the
same view.

~~~
jsjddbbwj
I am Spanish and I see exactly the same thing here. How it's okay for Germany
to rule over us because locals are so convinced our own country and its
citizens are inferior. It's so sad, especially since it ends as a self-
fulfilling prophecy.

~~~
nutjob2
These sorts of claims are standard fare for divisive far right parties.
Apparently they work quite well given their political rise and the prevalence
of that sort of rhetoric even in forums like this.

~~~
zpeti
Funny how the left-wing Yanis Varoufakis probably agrees with that statement.
But yeah, why don't you far right anyone who disagrees with the mainstream.

------
burnaway
Also Hungarian here. The article summed up the law under debate correctly. Its
a slippery slope that we've seen happening in other countries (Russia, which
is a kind of a blueprint for this government in many respects, comes to mind).
Carte blanche to do anything they please in the name of Protecting The People,
suspending constitutional rights and silencing all dissenting voices, this
time with jail sentences. Whenever the Covid situation gets better it's easy
to make up a new national emergency with a different threat - immigrants,
again, attack from EU, again, or something else. The 60% plus rural voters
whose main news source is the captured state media (Russian style, again)
won't really mind. Then we can stay in this "emergency doctrine" forever. No
wonder why wannabe/actual dictators love crisis...

Author makes a good point at the end - it can go another way as well. Let's
imagine, what if the country starts to crumble? As pezo1919 pointed out,
health/healthcare is in deep trouble. What if tens of thousands die and
everyone turns against Orbán? These changes will come very handy as well,
won't they?

I'm trying to finish this comment real fast before they pass this law and a
black car takes me away for spreading f

------
Maultasche
I spent about six weeks traveling in Hungary in the summer of 2000, enjoying
the great food and wine and practicing my rudimentary Hungarian skills. At the
time the country seemed to be a place with crappy past and a bright future.

I even was in Budapest during the celebrations of the 1000 year anniversary of
the founding of the Kingdom of Hungary (which was really just the anniversary
of the Christianization of the country and the Pope tossing a crown to King
Istvan). The fireworks were great and the I stood in the square in front of
the Parliament building and watched a then much younger Viktor Orban giving a
speech.

At the time, I was under the impression that Orban was viewed as a vibrant
leader committed to democracy and modernization. Oh, how times have changed.

He's now a wannabee dictator, stomping on democracy and free speech, and
taking the country on a reverse course back to the darker years of Hungary's
past.

What the hell happened to you, Viktor? Did you grow to like power too much?
You were so promising, but turned out to be so disappointing. Another Mugabe.

Now I feel sad when I think of Hungary and the nice people I met there. I also
marvel at the inability of the people to learn from their past. Hungarians
always seemed very well-informed and knowledgeable of their history.

------
cs702
From the Wikipedia page on demagogues
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue)):

\-- begin quote --

Demagogues usually advocate immediate, forceful action to address a _crisis_
while accusing moderate and thoughtful opponents of weakness or disloyalty.
Once elected to high executive office, demagogues typically unravel
constitutional limits on executive power and attempt to convert their
democracy to dictatorship.

...

Methods [used by demagogues]:

* Scapegoating

* Fearmongering

* Lying

* Emotional oratory and personal charisma

* Accusing opponents of weakness and disloyalty

* Promising the impossible

* Violence and physical intimidation

* Personal insults and ridicule

* Vulgarity and outrageous behavior

* Folksy posturing

* Gross oversimplification

* Attacking the news media

\-- end quote --

~~~
lostmsu
This post along with this very comment do at least:

* fearmongering

* Accusing of disloyalty

* Personal insult

* Gross oversimplification

If the media law has a clause about being active only in national emergency,
it might be OK (not that I'd vote for it).

------
jasonv
My parents fled Hungary in '56 and landed in the US, on the west coast. I
spent a lot of the last decade in Europe, and a lot of my free time in
Hungary. Loved it, enjoyed it, thought a future me could retire there.

The parallels between US right now, and Hungary right now, are alarming. It's
overtly called out in the press... so it's part of the conversation, but we're
full circle on what my parents (and grandparents) went through and how a
redemptive arc is, or is not, available.

------
vearwhershuh
Compare and contrast with the highest voted comment here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22663106](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22663106)

 _" If there’s anything the current debacles in Europe and the U.S. has taught
us, it’s that selfish and/or irrational jerks abound, and asking nicely
doesn’t work at all."_

Who, whom?

------
tomaszs
It is a long article without any sources

~~~
G8WyaX
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/hungary-to-
con...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/hungary-to-consider-
bill-that-would-allow-orban-to-rule-by-decree)

~~~
tomaszs
This is a little bit more truthworthy. But still there is no sources, Just
opinions. By sources i mean documents. Legislative documents. They can be
interpreted in various ways based on who reads them

------
magduf
People complain about dictatorships, but the absolute best form of government
is actually a dictatorship, because it's efficient and looks out for the
interests of the people. Of course, this means it has to be a "benevolent
dictatorship".

The problem with dictatorships is either your dictator isn't benevolent, or
you have a great dictator but then he dies and his son takes over and he's
terrible. There's lots of examples in history of excellent
dictators/authoritarians: Marcus Aurelius of Rome, and Elizabeth I of England,
for example. Of course, with Marcus Aurelius, there was a movie made about
what happened there (Gladiator, 2000) when he crappy son took over.

~~~
jariel
No, your first premise is false - even a 'benevolent dictatorship' is not 'the
best thing' for the people in most situations. In certain times of crises,
maybe, but otherwise, no.

~~~
curiousmindz
GP gave some good points about benevolent dictatorship. Can you elaborate on
why it wouldn't be "the best thing" in general? And ideally weight that
against all the other scenarios where it is.

~~~
TeMPOraL
One other thing that makes dictatorships inferior and democracy preferable
over all other systems of governance is transition of power. In democracies,
it's encoded in the system in such a way that everyone seeking power wants to
play ball. In dictatorship, if someone wants the power, they usually take it
by force, leaving a lot of bodies behind - and the very _threat_ of that is
already a force making dictators increasingly paranoid.

That said, I think every western country could use a temporary (say, 6 months)
switch to dictatorship, because I worry we won't deal with this effectively
otherwise. I have no idea how to ensure such a dictatorship would be
temporary, though.

~~~
jariel
No - we do not need dictatorships in these crises.

The notion of handing Donald Trump the ability to rule by fiat, let alone
other national leaders, is beyond rhetoric, it's not even contemplatable.

We need coordinated, responsible leadership. Most governments have all of the
constitutional powers they need at this time.

~~~
magduf
What we "need" isn't important. Coordinated, responsible leadership sounds
great, but that's up to the voters to decide. If the voters don't want that,
then why should it be forced on them? Who are you to tell the voters
otherwise?

The people elected Trump, so why not give him a dictatorship for 6 months?
After all, it's within the President's power to declare martial law for times
of emergency. It's the job of the voters to make sure they don't elect someone
who can't be trusted with the awesome power available to that position. The
same goes for any democratic country.

~~~
jariel
One of the more scary things I've ever read :)

The powers of the Executive, Legislative and Judiciary exist to balance one
another out _especially_ in times of crises when some dictator could come
along and declare himself ruler.

The people didn't vote for a Dictator, they voted for a President with very
limited constitutional powers.

