

Ask HN: Other careers for a hacker? - ouch

Every day, I code for seven to ten hours in pain (edit: Not carpal tunnel!). The last couple hours are the worst. For whatever reason, my body's had it with typing and mousing all day, and after two years of trying all sorts of things to remedy it, I'm out of ideas.<p>I'm trying to figure out what to do now to support myself as I go knock out the last few semesters on my degree, which seems like the next logical step here. What can a hacker do to eat when he can't type all day? I personally love teaching and I understand that people are really trying to acquire the skills I have right now, so maybe that's an option.<p>So as to not ramble here, I'll keep this short and answer any questions in the comments.<p>These are the skills I've had to demonstrate on the job, so the BS filter is on:<p><pre><code>  * HTML, CSS, web design
  * JavaScript (libs: jQuery, ExtJS)
  * Python
  * Ruby (mainly Rails)
  * PHP (Drupal, CakePHP)
  * MySQL
  * ColdFusion
  * Linux and Solaris server admin (+Apache, MySQL, Postfix, Dovecot, mainly)
  * AWS configuration/deployment
</code></pre>
I've only been in the field (resume-wise) for a few years so it's unlikely I'd be able to move to any sort of position managing other devs, although I do manage one dev right now.
======
mahmud
Sales and marketing. There is no rush like the rush of money, real, serious
money.

Everyone you see programming is like a medieval craftsman, good at one thing
and one thing only. As a salesman, you're the top dog, you have an eye for who
is good and who is bad, you can choose whose products to sell, who to make
rich, and who to work with. You're a phone wielding king-maker.

If you love thinking, that's all you will do. You will try to understand
_everyone's_ business, what they do, who they sell to, how much, how often,
and under what restrictions. You take your work with you, to the pub,
restaurant, street, gym and home. You will be taking notes when others are
talking. You will go over your girlfriend's browser history to learn what she
shops for. You will be opening your parent's credit card statements to see
where the money goes. A day at the mall will be like heaven to you; you will
get a rush from seeing people spend. Information will fucking nurture you.

You do that so often you can see trends before they hit the press :-)

Nothing like being able to give your friends and family business, real solid
leads, and all others will have to contend for your attention and rolodex.

Sales makes bull-fighting look boring. It's as if the newspapers were
published for your own amusement. Every little column brings in an idea, a
lead, a name, an opportunity.

P.S. and on good days you will be too thrilled that you end up talking like
this. Guess who closed today? ABC :-)

------
thaumaturgy
I have no idea what'll work for you.

For me, I started in I.T. at 16, did the corporate thing by 19, and at 24
became a climbing instructor.

It was great. The pay was crap, but I learned a lot about people and group
management and all kinds of other things that I just don't think most hackers
ever have to deal with. I mean, how often do you get to practice talking to a
6-year-old that's climbed to the top and refuses to let go?

After a few years in the outdoor industry I returned to computer systems, much
more well-balanced I think.

I don't see much personal value in moving from programming to something
tangential to program. Diametric opposition, now that's much more fun.

~~~
nailer
What do you do now? Do you work for yourself or someone else? What do you
enjoy about it?

~~~
thaumaturgy
I'm currently 100% self-employed, working on two businesses: one in IT
consulting for individuals and companies, and one in news aggregation and
publishing (which has been suffering lately but is about to get a shot in the
arm again).

First, the bad stuff that I don't like: I haven't had a real vacation in quite
a while; any money that I make has to go back into the business, so I'm
perpetually poor; I work long hours and most days of the week; I am on the
front-lines, dealing with the frustrations that various technologies bring to
the people trying to use them.

So it's not all roses, but I do still prefer it to a regular job. For one
thing, if I make a stupid decision -- and I often do! -- I can clean it up. My
businesses are limited only by what I'm willing to achieve. I have done some
pretty good things for my clients, and that's rewarding by itself.

The one advice-y lesson I've learned so far: GET HELP. I was struggling with
the consulting business, and then Leslie (my girlfriend) started helping out,
and it's made a tremendous difference. Now my billing is mostly on time,
there's someone that knows what my expenses and revenues look like, and she's
running around behind me keeping my head screwed on straight. :-)

Additionally I've hired a tech (twice), and it's valuable getting someone
else's point of view and experience involved, so long as you're willing to
give them some pretty clear rules at the beginning and then get out of their
way.

------
blhack
I know that this wasn't your question, but I was having this same problem for
a while... My wrists and arms hurt like hell while I was at work, it was
really awful.

I get made fun of for it now, but what I did was take two keyboards, and use
one for each hand. Spreading my arms apart so that my wrists weren't cocked
out _really_ helped me...so much so that I've been able to go back to one
keyboard (my trusty IBM model M). Think more about hugging your monitor than
poking it in the stomach (if that makes any sense...I mean the orientation of
your hands).

The other thing that I did was replace my regular mouse with a trackball. (A
kensington expert mouse [[http://blog.nongraphical.com/wp-
content/uploads/2008/08/expe...](http://blog.nongraphical.com/wp-
content/uploads/2008/08/expert-mouse.jpg\])).

I really _enjoy_ coding...so it wasn't so much a "what else can I do"
situation for me, it was a "how can I keep doing this".

~~~
ouch
> same problem for a while... My wrists and arms

Neck muscles, shoulder, upper back. The problem derives from starting in one
direction and needing my arms to be braced enough to be quick to the keys.
I've tried all sorts of different postures and what not, seen my chiropractor
a few times, etc., but nothing helps the problem other than being away from
the computer for a while.

~~~
blhack
Please don't take offense to this, but what kind of shape are you in? I found
that losing some weight really helped my back problems.

~~~
ouch
I'm 5'11" and ~150lb and I get exercise regularly. I've tried all sorts of
things to further strengthen my back and upper body over the past couple years
(and to improve its flexibility), but judging by the enduring pain, fitness is
not a factor here.

~~~
wallflower
> Neck muscles, shoulder, upper back.

I have the same problem. My wrist/forearm problems are symptoms of a problem
that starts up at the shoulder and back.

One thing that has helped me tremendously is a foam roller. I have one that
allows me to lie on it with my spine parallel to the roller length. I use it
in the morning before work and in the evening after work (for about 10 min.)
and I find it really helps release built-up stress and fatigue in my back and
shoulders.

[http://www.healthyback.com/products/glidepoint/foam-
rollers/...](http://www.healthyback.com/products/glidepoint/foam-rollers/486)

------
liquidcool
The pair programming idea got me thinking - what about hiring someone for half
days doing your typing for you? This seems economical, esp. in this economy.
Maybe a local CS student who would see this as an internship, or at least know
the syntax well enough to make your dictation efficient. Since you have your
own business you'd just treat it as an expense.

I think the speech to text suggestion is also worth investigating.

Since you've tried a bunch of things, I assume you've read up on ergonomics. A
previous employer forced me to take an ergonomics evaluation when I wanted a
new chair. I thought it was going to be a waste, but it was really useful and
helped me improve my home office setup as well.

------
abyssknight
I guess to approach this from another angle, I just had a chat with one of the
senior tech leads at the corporation I work for (140k+ employees). He said
that several of the developers he worked with moved on to do completely
different things in the years following a project built about a decade ago.

One went on to be an instructor of some sort, another a farmer. My realtor
worked in the same place I did writing HTML and Cobol before she got so burnt
out she became a realtor. That was 8 years ago.

There's no limit to what you can do, both as a developer and outside the tech
realm. Hackers are not just technical. Hacking can be anything you make it.

Good luck, and I hope you find your passion. :)

------
kabdib
A cow-orker of mine (now at Google) moved to Dragon Naturally Speaking, and
also became a product manager. He changed from writing code to writing specs
and emails.

It seemed to work out, though he was a good writer of prose to begin with.

------
jrockway
The syadmin stuff, the HTML, and the PHP/ColdFusion tend to be pretty hard on
your hands. Lots of typing to not say very much. Maybe you'd like a concise
language with a good IDE, like Common Lisp, instead?

I find that most annoyance while programming comes from things like switching
from the editor to the terminal to the documentation and back to the editor.
As I bring more and more functionality into Emacs, I find myself typing less
and thinking more (and generally being less annoyed). I have never experienced
pain while keyboarding, though, and I am flexible enough to elicit grimaces
from people watching my normal movements. YMMV.

~~~
garnet7
CL is concise? I hadn't heard it described that way. Now, I've certainly heard
[Arc](<http://www.arclanguage.org/>) described as concise.

~~~
jrockway
Maybe try it out and see for yourself. Arc is a domain-specific language for
building Hacker News, not a general-purpose programming language.

~~~
garnet7
Yes, I plan to (at some point), thanks, but it will probably take me a while
until I get experienced enough at CL to be able to judge how concise it is.

------
wglb
I had severe finger pain two years ago and went to a chiropractor but none of
that helped. I got a Kinesis keyboard and a good chair and the pain slowly
subsided and is now gone. I find that the worst thing is the mouse, so I have
a kensington trackball and switch hands. It really could be just a
keyboard/mouse/posture thing.

------
roundsquare
Hmmm... no idea if this will work, but can you find a place that does pair
programming? Maybe you could spend most of your time being the person not at
the keyboard.

------
mattm
Have you tried reducing your hours? I find it difficult to concentrate after 7
hours. If you can reduce to 35 hours a week, you might notice drastic
improvements.

~~~
ouch
Unfortunately this has nothing to do with the mind, I could easily hack for a
day straight with some good coffee, barring the pain. You do bring up a good
point however...I'd gladly work twenty hours if I could support myself on it,
but in this industry I've never come across such a thing except for interns
and such.

Now what I'd love to do is go live somewhere cheap overseas if I could get
interesting work outsourced (esp. development of significant JS software), but
that sounds like a pipe dream.

~~~
andreshb
Teach english abroad, and do some freelance here and there for extra income

~~~
ouch
Everyone says this, how does one pursue it? I speak Spanish very well.

~~~
andreshb
If you speak spanish very well, I would suggest Chile. Though not the cheapest
place in S. America, cheaper than the U.S. and Europe, most of Asia, and rent
could be ~$220-$300 month, you could live well with <$800 (single, no kids),
$15/day food (eating out)

Its safe, more organized than most of the US cities ive been to, and it has a
thriving and friendly tech community if you dont want to completely remove
yourself from it.

If you seriously want to pursue this, let me know, I lived there for some time
and have very good contacts w/ the startup/tech community and in education.

I suggest you read this article: [http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/10/chile-
wants-your-poor-y...](http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/10/chile-wants-your-
poor-your-huddled-masses-your-tech-entrepreneurs/)

(I'm not Chilean, no agenda here)

~~~
ouch
Thanks, what would be a good way to reach you? I considered the contact form
on your website, but I don't know if you'd receive that directly.

~~~
andreshb
andres barreto + gmail + com @andresbarreto

------
formerO
Purely anecdotal, but I had fairly severe wrist Tendonitus on and off. I
starting taking vitamin B-6 (and occasionally B-12), haven't had trouble
since.

------
Mz
Nevermind. Not relevant. Thanks for the clarification.

~~~
ouch
I appreciate the thought regardless, I'm sure 95% of problems like these are
wrist/hand-related.

~~~
Mz
FWIW: I did cure my dad's incapacitating back problems when I was 17 using six
months of daily massage and some aggressive gymnastics-based stretching
techniques to get his flexibility within normal range of motion in about 2
weeks. Just mentioning it in case it sparks a new thought for you. Otherwise,
carry on and good luck in your job hunt.

------
dnsworks
Have you considered Dragon Naturally Speaking? Ask @benjyfeen about it, he
works in SRE at Google. My understanding is his carpal tunnel got so bad that
he had to stop typing 4 or 5 years ago, and went through some intensive
training with Dragon Naturally Speaking. Now he's able to do all of his work
without a keyboard.

------
access_denied
there are some sites marketing paid video tutorials, maybe you could team up
there?

~~~
jasonlbaptiste
do you have a list of those sites?

~~~
jmonegro
peepcode.com is one.

~~~
jasonlbaptiste
i really like their design and the content focus is niche, but a good one.

~~~
jmonegro
if by niche you mean general dev niche, then yes. They cover a wide range of
topics, ranging from iPhone development to Productivity.

------
TheSOB88
How about taking a break at work? Or four?

~~~
ouch
I do, and I do.

