
Howard University opens a new campus at the Googleplex - petethomas
https://blog.google/topics/diversity/howard-university-opens-new-campus-googleplex/
======
misterbowfinger
I want to comment on the anti Affirmative Action arguments here.

I went to a really prestigious high school in New York City. For the summer of
my junior year, our AP Computer Science teacher hooked up a few of us with
internships at the finance firms, specifically in tech (Goldman Sachs, Morgan
Stanley, etc.). Now, sure, I did really well and studied really hard to get
into my high school. However, I did practically nothing to earn that
internship besides taking AP Computer Science. My Computer Science "expertise"
was hardly valuable. I knew just about as much as any other AP CS kid in the
country.

In the end, that internship did wonders for me getting into college and
getting future jobs. And plus, I made 3k that summer. And yes, I finished a
useful project at the firm. But the reason I had that opportunity was totally
orthogonal to _earning_ the opportunity. I know we like to boast about being a
meritocracy and all that, but this is one of those cases where it was
correlation, not causation.

~~~
reader5000
Because you're not the person AA hurts. AA doesnt hurt top 1% people, it hurts
say top 10% people who are in the wrong ethnic group and lose out to people in
the correct ethnic group. Just ask a lower class Asian person with top 10%
MCAT scores, and why he lost a med school spot to a middle class URM person
with top 20% scores.

~~~
cercatrova
But isn't that how you achieve systematic equality? For example, say there are
two races X and Y. X is the overachiever (doesn't even have to be a majority,
there could be a 50/50 population), while Y is the underachiever, for whatever
historical reasons these two groups faced. So, to get Y on the same level as X
and restore a meritocracy, you must admit more of Y, even if X does better in
some cases. Meritocracy only makes sense if everyone starts off with the same
advantages. Otherwise, the populations must converge until such a point is
reached. It becomes an argument for shortchanging certain populations for the
greater good of society, to undo the disparity of the past. Is that not why AA
exists?

~~~
srssays
It's absolutely fine to give extra advantages to people with low incomes.
That's economic progressivism.

It's wrong to give extra advantages based on genetics, essentially saying that
some people "genetically poor" or "genetically rich", which is what
Affirmative Action does.

~~~
tomlock
That's exactly why affirmative action exists:

It's wrong to give extra advantages based on genetics. Therefore, giving an
extra advantage to someone who is not given those other extra advantages,
evens the score.

~~~
srssays
Affirmative action will prefer a middle-income black person to a low-income
white person. It 'evens the score' for _some_ poor people, but not for others.

~~~
tomlock
There are plenty of systems that benefit some areas of society and not others.
It sounds from your comment that you're all for an even distribution of
rewards across society. Is that a fair characterization? Why is this case
particularly egregious to you compared to other inequalities?

------
throwa34567
I'm very happy to see this. I grew up in a town that, before I was born,
decided to actively integrate (from being an historically all white, wealthy
suburb) and I'm certain I'm better off for growing up in a diverse community.
I'm in mountain view now and it's all "silicon valley white", and something
actively needs to be done. I worry when I realize my kid can go a week or more
without seeing a black person, and I'm disappointed in myself when I realize I
have no black friends (when as a kid they were my neighbors).

~~~
xienze
So, let's say you were born in China. Would you have a similar level of
anxiety about never seeing anyone outside of your ethnic group? I find it very
odd how white people are seemingly the only ethnic group so hung up on seeing
people of different races one day-to-day basis.

On a related note, if being around so many white people bothers you so much,
why aren't you living in, say, East Palo Alto or Richmond?

~~~
djtriptych
Buuuut this isn't China. It's America. Ethnic diversity is part of the DNA
here.

~~~
monkmartinez
Where are the "all" hispanic outreach programs in tech?

~~~
thelock85
I think the appropriate dig is "where are the Hispanics in tech" and "where
are the Hispanics in tech building explicit bridges to their communities."
HBCUs are the result of affluent blacks fighting for land grants at the turn
of the 20th century since many states refused to grant land for the formation
of integrated colleges and universities. This program, love it or hate it, is
100+ years in the making.

------
tabeth
One thing I struggle with is measurement of progress. For example, what Google
is allowing here with Howard U is obviously good for the AA community.
However, is Google in general doing things that are good or bad for AAs in
general? It's difficult to say.

Excessive advertising can be used to poor people's disadvantage by creating
more debt by encouraging more unnecessary expenses. AAs consist of a
disproportionally large percentage of poor people and have chronically low
wealth levels [1]. One could argue Google is _bad_ for AAs by making
advertising more mainstream and accurate.

In any case, at least they're trying, PR or not. Some companies do nothing. I
do feel strongly about this because the amount of segregation in Boston is
ridiculous.

[1] [http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/27/news/economy/racial-
wealth-g...](http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/27/news/economy/racial-wealth-gap-
blacks-whites/)

~~~
bpodgursky
Wow, seriously? Google is out to get poor people?

Let's not talk about how Google made access to an entire world of information
100x easier and cheaper, so anyone with a cheap tablet or phone can get
information you used to need a $1k encyclopedia for.

Let's not talk about how Google drove Android, a platform which gave a huge
number of people internet access by giving them $100 phones or tablets.

Let's not talk about how Google has (done its best) to scan every book ever
written to make books available online and free.

Google has done vast amounts to level the playing field, making top-tier
services like Gmail and Google maps free, where previously people had to pay
for Garmin navigation or Outlook or w/e.

The kind of argument the OP makes is shallow, petty, and out to use a hammer
for every grudge. Yeah, Google makes money via ads. No, that doesn't mean they
are racist, sexist, or whatever the hell you feel like making up just to
complain about advertising.

~~~
greglindahl
Do you find that using words like "shallow" and "petty" to describe arguments
that you disagree with fosters good conversation?

~~~
bpodgursky
The top comment was a hit piece, not an attempt at honest conversation.

It's whataboutism, to distract from the actual conversation. "Oh, Google is
doing a good thing, but what about all the bad things they do"

If you feed it, you talk about what they want you to talk about, which is
inherently negative about Google in this case. It's a standard tactic of
state-sponsored propaganda machines (not that I think it is in this case).

------
downandout
Programs like this promote the very discrimination that they are intended to
counteract. People of all other races will see this and argue - correctly -
that black students at Howard now have an advantage over them at one of the
premier employers in the tech industry. This is wonderful for Howard students,
and probably for black CS students looking for employment at Google in
general, but not so great for everyone else.

You cannot fix racism by implementing racist programs. You do it by removing
race from the hiring equation to the maximum extent possible, and making it
known that applicants of all races are welcome and that they will be judged
based solely on their skills and qualifications. The kind of program announced
today will, and should, backfire on Google.

~~~
burkaman
The point of affirmative action is that it's impossible to remove race from
the hiring equation, because race affects your applicants right up to the
point they send in an application. If you say "I'm colorblind", you're also
pretending that everyone else in the world is colorblind, and race had no
impact on your applicants' resumes.

Race is a society-wide issue, and it's not possible to solve without
recognizing and correcting for it. If you close your eyes and ignore it,
racism will still exist and continue to affect people. Even if racism
disappeared from America overnight, the issue would not be solved because
there would still be lingering cyclical effects from past racism. Parents with
fewer opportunities raise kids with fewer opportunities because we live in an
imperfect world, and these things require active correction.

~~~
jza00425
Today companies say that they only hire diverse people. Who is getting
discriminated? Pls tell me

~~~
burkaman
I'm describing how affirmative action should be used, not how it always is.
Certainly there are plenty of companies who just want different colored people
in their website photos so they don't look bad.

------
nether
This is unfair. It is also unfair that blacks receive harsher punishments,
_starting in preschool_ , and that this prejudice follows them their entire
lives. Can you imagine that? Being told by society that you are bad and
predisposed to being a criminal, probably every fucking day? In small and
large ways. Learned helplessness is _real_. I may not see the injustice
vividly, because I am not black nor do I have any close black friends (I have
a college bud that I hardly talk to, that's it). But it's _everywhere_. Google
knows the inequity exists and is taking a step to address it.

[http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/03/21/292456211/...](http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/03/21/292456211/black-
preschoolers-far-more-likely-to-be-suspended)

[https://newsone.com/1859475/black-people-
receive-60-longer-s...](https://newsone.com/1859475/black-people-
receive-60-longer-sentences-for-same-crimes/)

------
FT_intern
I think we are in need of an open discussion on redefining "diversity".

Race is not a good metric for diversity. Nationality completely trumps it.

People of the same nationality with the same primary language have much more
in common with each other. You can actually see this dynamic play out at work
where people hang out with others from the same nationality. Americans hang
out with Americans, Mandarin Chinese hang out with Mandarin Chinese, Indians
with other Indians (don't know enough about Indian culture to split this group
up further), Germans with Germans, etc.

Cultural_Difference(random_nationality1, random_nationality2) >
Cultural_Difference(same_nationality_different_race1,
same_nationality_different_race2)

With this metric, tech is one of the most diverse fields in the world.

Seen through this new point of view, the racial categories are very
shortsighted. The difference between Indian and Chinese (or even Chinese and
Korean) cultures is immense, yet they are assigned as part of the same
category. African Americans have their own category, yet they are culturally
and linguistically(same native language) very similar to white Americans.

Now let's move onto the controversial "disadvantages" discussion.

African Americans generally have family whose native language is English and
who understand American culture and can impart these skills and knowledge to
their children. They have the language and cultural knowledge to fight for
their interests and a powerful organization (NCAAP) to back them up. With
these advantages, African Americans are basically seen as honorary Americans
similar to white Americans. These advantages even put them in a better
position than white immigrants (and sometimes their American born children who
have a harder time assimilating).

With these advantages and affirmative action based advantages(educational
programs, scholarships, diversity internships and hiring, easy access to
colleges/universities from affirmative action[works out to something like
+150/2400 SAT and +0.2 GPA which is huge when competing in top percentiles])
middle class and upper middle class African Americans are very privileged.

Edit:

And on disadvantages in the workplace.

Americans are the largest group and the language spoken is English, so
Americans (of any race) and native English speakers are privileged.

~~~
and0
It's kind of wild you think the NAACP is this huge factor tipping the scales.
I'd guess that's a product of consuming alt-right news, which tends to
massively amplify organizations and figures within the black community that
can be smeared as corrupt, but who knows.

Every study I've read relating to economic mobility points to having economic
leverage in the first place as the greatest factor. Blacks have a
disproportionately low share of wealth ownership in America (can't cite this
atm), which combined with systematic biases puts them at a pretty significant
disadvantage. Speaking English isn't enough to counteract that.

You make some interesting points re: how to categorize diversity, but it
sounds like you're just moving the goalposts.

------
nybbler
If this succeeds, how will Google and Howard keep whites and Asians from
taking too many positions in the class? Outright racial discrimination in
university admissions is still illegal, and Howard couldn't seriously argue
that they're engaging in affirmative action (their student body is over 90%
black)

------
komaromy
Good. I hope they're looking into a pipeline that reaches these students
before they're junior- or senior-aged as well.

~~~
harryjo
[http://www.gettingsmart.com/2011/03/jordan-lloyd-
bookey-k-12...](http://www.gettingsmart.com/2011/03/jordan-lloyd-
bookey-k-12-education-outreach-at-google/)

Examples of Google’s programs include:

● Google’s Computing and Programming Experience (CAPE): This four-week
experience is for 8th graders to gain exposure to CS. This summer we will have
around 130 students, and we hope to further expand this content to
organizations and schools around the country. We are looking to test this new
model with MS2 in Washington, DC this summer.

● LEAD Program for Computer Science: This is a rigorous and exciting summer
residential program for underrepresented minority students in grades 9-11,
held at four universities in its upcoming inaugural year..

● Trailblazer Award: This is an award (in Europe) that is given
internationally for participation in national science fairs. Winners are all
treated to a 2-day Trailblazer retreat with fellow winners to learn more about
the possibilities of a career in CS.

● Counselors for Computing: This program trains counselors to teach their
fellow guidance counselors the benefits of CS degrees. Through our partner
members at NCWIT, we are hoping to scale impact through these critical
influencers.

● CS4HS is an initiative sponsored by Google to promote CS and Computational
Thinking in high school and middle school curriculum by hosting CS teachers at
campuses worldwide to learn about leading edge practice in the field.

● Computer Science Teachers Association: We are an ongoing supporter of the
CSTA and, in particular, recently hosted their CS&IT symposium for 200 CS
teachers at our Mountain View campus.

------
gumby
I know this doesn't add to the conversation but I'm really excited by this and
had to say so.

------
swframe2
I want to suggest a naive way to reduce the effect of affirmative action.

1) Join forces to donate to educational institutions specifically to increase
the number of students they enroll. If there are X spots being reserved for
AA, then ask the school to add X additional spots not usable for AA. Donate
specifically for them to build additional dorms, classrooms, etc.

For some schools, their endowment is so large, they don't really need the
donation, they just need pressure. I think pressuring them to expand should be
more likely than pressuring them to end AA.

2) Invest in poor communities. AA stems from the desire to end a cycle of
poverty. If we worked to "upgrade" poor communities then the need for AA would
greatly decrease. So invest to improve K-12, housing, and businesses in poor
communities.

I use the word "invest" because real estate in poor areas is usually under
market. I think you can make a really good return if you build high quality
housing. Just make sure you are willing to sell/rent to the current residents
at below market prices. You should still be able to make a profit from the
housing you build that is sold/rented to the middle class looking for better
deals in your "upgraded" community.

There doesn't have to be a zero-sum battle between those who benefit from AA
and those who don't.

~~~
Kalium
> There doesn't have to be a zero-sum battle between those who benefit from AA
> and those who don't.

When resources (jobs, college admissions slots, government funding for
programs, etc.) are scarce, there often will be.

When I was in college, one of my classes included a unit on public speaking.
We were encouraged to speak on a contentious topic and attempt to be
persuasive. On the day I presented, I sat through multiple presentations on
the subject of affirmative action. All of them were against it on the basis
that it hurt certain ethnic groups. None of the people presenting on that
subject were white.

(Me? I was ranting against DRM. Not important.)

------
twunde
I have to say just how excited I am about this. I know two black developers.
TWO. I've worked with numerous female developers and know plenty more. I've
worked with hispanic, asian, white and european developers (no native american
that I know of). I think that this is a great move to help bring in more
diversity (and certainly a very different perspective)

------
Animats
That's an effective bit of action by Google. Three months at Google will do
wonders for anyone's early career opportunities.

------
thex10
This sounds really cool to me just because of the novelty of having a campus
at a megacorporate site. I would've loved to work at the Googleplex as a
college student! I think it's really cool that kids these days can have that
opportunity, and hope more companies will follow suit.

------
startupdiscuss
This is exciting for a simple reason: it might actually work.

------
HillaryBriss
Google is trying to bring good jobs to people in the US who need good jobs by
helping to develop their talent and match it to a role within the company. i
don't think that's a bad thing. i think Google will be happy to see how well
this approach works.

------
nsxwolf
Is this legal? Is this really a school that only allows people of a certain
race? I don't mean scholarships or other affirmative action type stuff. An
actual entire school that excludes based on race?

Where is my misunderstanding?

~~~
CoachRufus87
> Is this really a school that only allows people of a certain race?

No.

~~~
nsxwolf
Ask an honest question, get stupid one word non answers and downvotes.

~~~
oh_sigh
Your honest question got an honest answer - NO. Anyone can apply to Howard,
anyone can get accepted to Howard.

~~~
nsxwolf
I know that is true of the regular Howard University campus, but what about
the new program that's the subject of the article?

~~~
CoachRufus87
Did you bother to read the post?

> Rising juniors and seniors in Howard’s computer science (CS) program can
> attend Howard West, for three months at a time.

------
protomyth
It would be cool if some tech company did this with a school like
[http://www.haskell.edu/](http://www.haskell.edu/)

~~~
startupdiscuss
Let me guess: it is a purely functional university?

~~~
nybbler
Yes, instead of the students learning anything, when you send a student to the
university you're returned a new student which is almost the same only with
more knowledge.

~~~
startupdiscuss
Thanks. I thought the (in my opinion, very funny) joke was getting lost based
on the down-voting.

------
WillyOnWheels
[http://n-gate.com/](http://n-gate.com/) is going to have a lot of fun with
the comments here

------
Zigurd
If you build a company without thinking too much about diversity and it finds
itself unbalanced in race and sex when it has thousands of employees, the math
becomes daunting. 10% set-asides would take _decades_ to get you near balance.

This is why extraordinary efforts have to be made, and made at scale.

------
komali2
It's nitpicky and maybe trivial, but I'm happy to see them use the word
"Black" so prominently. I always got peeved at "African American." If we're
going to discuss _race_ , nationality doesn't really figure into the equation.

Then again, if you start talking scientifically, the concept of "race" is
shaky at best, but there's no denying the cultural implications of the idea.

~~~
uncletaco
It is nitpicky but not so trivial. As I understand it, once upon a time you
would have German Americans and Italian Americans as distinctive subgroups in
the United States with their own unique cultures. But Negroes couldn't really
say they were Nigerian-American or Angolan-American, largely because most
colored people did not know exactly where in Africa they came from. In a
historical context it makes sense that a subgroup defined by both culture and
appearance would be intentional in adopting a name. This is especially true
when the names given to them: negroes, colored folk, and even _black_ had
racist baggage associated with them.

I personally don't mind African American for the same reasons I don't mind
Asian American. Both subnational groups are comfortable with their designation
I believe.

Speaking of Asian Americans, are you peeved with the term "Asian American"?
Would you rather them self-identify as "yellow"? I ask because I like
consistency.

~~~
komali2
Hm, good point regarding Asian American. Using "yellow" seems ridiculous but
is value-wise the same as saying "black." And I can't just claim "just get rid
of it all and call'm people!" because there are very useful reasons to be able
to define general race (for example, when reporting a crime, you give gender,
race, hair, clothing, approximate height). Even that though will become
trickier as the genetic pool equalizes.

Dunno man, good point. I hadn't thought of it because all of my "Asian-
American" friends have very distinguishable country-specific characteristics
that they can identify because their family migrated more recently than your
average Black family's, and they don't have a history of slavery obfuscating
their origins.

EDIT: Thinking more on it, I believe I'm used to hearing "Asian" to describe
race, as opposed to "Asian-American" to describe _heritage_ or nationality.

EDIT2: And also thinking more, I believe my friends use "FOB" to describe an
_actual_ Asian, i.e. someone born in Asia. Which probably will be a horribly
offensive slur one day and I'll be the 2060 equivalent of "the grandpa that
says 'negro' way too much."

~~~
uncletaco
I've been told that FOB is offensive and is rarely used in a positive, or even
neutral, manner. I mean it hasn't become taboo like nigger has but I've been
told its not a polite thing to call someone.

But my larger point is African American "works". Its not offensive, speaks to
a unique identity the same way Italian/Jewish/German American does, and for
the most post is accepted by the black American community.

Also the genetic pool won't equalize anytime soon. Admixture leading to a near
homogenous population of humans outside of small sparsely populated areas is
millenia away.

------
Blackthorn
Nobody's really worried about competent students not being able to perform.

~~~
lr4444lr
Very inaccurate statement.

[http://www.apa.org/research/action/stereotype.aspx](http://www.apa.org/research/action/stereotype.aspx)

~~~
SamReidHughes
You're talking about this phenomenon?
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat#Failures_t...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat#Failures_to_replicate_and_publication_bias)

~~~
lr4444lr
Well, I am surprised to see that pretty much every study I have seen
confirming the phenomenon had been conducted before those meta-analyses, and
is in fact almost 10 years old or more. Healthy skepticism created. Thank you!

------
wehadfun
Is this a way to use blacks to increase the supply and decrease the salary of
software engineers?

Regardless the people that go to Howard are pretty well off anyway. Its a
private U so either you have money or enough educations/connections/... to get
a scholarship.

Edit: Im not criticizing this. I think it is great.

~~~
John23832
Howard is prestigious for an HBCU, but it's not Harvard. HBCU's deal with a
notorious lack of funding, so the connections that you assume are not always
there. I can say this specifically applies to Howard.

------
monkmartinez
Where are the all Hispanic Schools? How about some Hispanic related
"campuses?"

~~~
harryjo
Since the USA does not have a long history of legal segregation against
Hispanics, there are no Hispanic colleges.

However, there are Hispanic Serving Insitutions:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic-
serving_institution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic-
serving_institution)

I also wonder how much you cared about Hispanic schools before you heard about
someone helping a Black school. Why the sudden interest?

