
Monks Who Spent Years Turning Themselves into Mummies While Alive - Thevet
http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/sokushinbutsu
======
biot
This was discussed a few times earlier this year in an article that contains
pictures of the monks:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10892556](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10892556)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10650278](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10650278)

Actual article: [https://www.damninteresting.com/sokushinbutsu-the-ancient-
bu...](https://www.damninteresting.com/sokushinbutsu-the-ancient-buddhist-
mummies-of-japan/)

Curiously similar wording too. Original article:

"Some of the monks drank tea made from the bark of the urushi tree during
their fast. Also known as the Japanese Varnish Tree, its sap is normally used
to make a lacquer varnish, and it contains the same abrasive chemical that
makes poison ivy so unpleasant. Urushi is so toxic that even its vapor can
cause a rash, and it remains in the body after death. Drinking urushi tea
served to hasten the monk towards death as well as make his body even less
hospitable to insects."

This new article:

"A kind of sumac, the Japanese lacquer tree is called such because it is used
to make traditional Japanese lacquer, urushi. Its bark contains the same toxic
compound that makes poison ivy so poisonous. If ingested by these monks,
urushi tea would have both hastened death and made the body even less
hospitable to the bacteria and parasites that aid in decomposition."

~~~
kuschku
> Curiously similar wording too.

That happens quite often with such articles, they’re usually cross-licensed,
and just slightly rewritten.

If you really want to be freaked out, read gaming journalism – they all just
copy the original press statement and slightly adapt it.

~~~
rand_r
I thought "gaming journalism" was a book you were referencing about this
practice and it sounded like a good read.

~~~
kuschku
Ah, sorry. That was a bad choice of words.

There was a time when, to do let’s plays on YouTube, you had to still get
written approval from publishers, and back in the day, that meant getting into
their press contacts program.

Which in turn meant I got their press statements, half pre-written articles,
phrases that should be used in articles, etc.

When reading gaming magazines after that I always noticed the exact same texts
being used, often only minor alterations being made.

Sometimes they even suggested a range in which the rating for the game should
be.

------
jdironman
_At the completion of a thousand-day cycle on this diet, practitioners were
considered spiritually ready to enternyūjō. However, most monks completed two
or even three cycles to fully prepare themselves._

Oh, come on. You know they just backed out like anyone would a couple times.

------
sadgit
Is there any real spiritual value here? It appears to me to be misguided if
the objective is to preserve oneself for later reanimation.

~~~
javajosh
At it's core, Buddhism is about learning non-reaction to both pleasure and
pain, treating both as mere sensation. I suppose this practice could be
defended in that vein. However, it reminds me more of the Buddha's early
ascetic practices, that he himself renounced, declaring that there is no point
in actively harming oneself, and that one should instead work to reduce
craving and aversion (the two fundamental types of reaction).

There was another article about a small sect of Japanese Buddhist monks that
had some horrible practices, like screaming at each other in the morning, and
so on. Even stranger (and more horrible) practices exist. But I would not call
them Buddhist.

~~~
contingencies
Shingon is a Vajrayana-style mystic tradition of Buddhism: more similar to
Tibetan Buddhism than more popular East Asian forms. Also, it has been
basically isolated in Japan since about the year 800. Although there is a
Chinese school, contact was apparently limited.

------
code_sardaukar
As someone who grew up in a Christian culture that cherishes life, I find this
sort of thing deeply disturbing. But I don't want to dismiss Buddhism. Even
though I'm an atheist, I admire Buddhism's focus on compassion, and I think it
has a beneficial effect on Buddhist cultures.

~~~
sixdimensional
It's my opinion that most humans have to really try thinking outside the box
to understand this particular case.

Western culture, for example, has this innate fear of death. This is not a
fear that other cultures share.

One could call what these monks were doing mental instability, lack of
education or being suicidal. However, from another perspective, one could call
what these monks were doing an incredible act of mental strength, self-control
and devotion, following their beliefs wherever they lead, for what they
perceived to be a selfless act.

I prefer to think that these are people who had a different way of thinking,
they lived (and died) ascribing to that, without seeming to cause anyone else
harm in their lives. Death was part of a bigger picture for them, not
something they feared (or they taught themselves not to fear it).

While I certainly don't ascribe to the belief system these monks shared, there
is something that we can learn from this alternative way, and respect in its
own way.

Ultimately, I think that's what all compatible belief systems enable... a way
of living peacefully and honorably allowing people to explore their own
beliefs from life through death, and who knows, potentially beyond.

~~~
ZanyProgrammer
"Western culture, for example, has this innate fear of death. This is not a
fear that other cultures share." This seems incredibly broad and...just very
off.

~~~
acqq
I also have this "off" feeling, but I have at least one specific example:

[http://news.nationalpost.com/holy-post/we-love-death-more-
th...](http://news.nationalpost.com/holy-post/we-love-death-more-than-you-
love-life)

"These grisly words are as foreign to Western sensibilities as they are all
but sacred dogma for Muslim radicals at war with the West—and with Western
sensibilities.

The sentence originated with a 7th-century Muslim commander who threatened his
enemies with the prospect of “an army of men that love death as you love
life.” As if to prove that, at least in the Middle East, there is nothing new
under the sun, Hassan Nasrallah employed the phrase in a 2004 interview to
explain why Hizballah, the organization he heads, is destined to prevail over
Israel"

"How to understand this macabre sentiment? Martyrdom has played an important
role in Islam since its inception, and a number of chapters in the Quran
mention the rewards of those who fight and die for God."

~~~
geofft
That's for armies, though. The West is the culture that produced "I only
regret that I have but one life to lose for my country" and "Dulce et decorum
est pro patria mori," both in the context of war.

And there have been many, many religious martyrs in the history of Western
civilization, and lots of veneration of those martyrs, mostly in the context
of battle. Not just in Christianity - the Eddas say that all who die in battle
will be guaranteed a place in Valhalla (or either Valhalla or Folkvangr,
depending on the source).

I think the interesting distinction here is that my examples and yours are all
related to battle, and the context here isn't about battle. Is some culture
unique in its lack of fear of death _outside of battle_?

~~~
acqq
> That's for armies, though. ... Is some culture unique in its lack of fear of
> death outside of battle?

At least staying with my example, there's an explicit "duty" for the "jihad"
(which can also be translated as the "battle"
[http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/struggle](http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/struggle)
and which is exactly so understood by the majority of scholars) to be
performed by every believer:

[https://www.al-islam.org/a-muslim-in-society-al-
balagh/jihad...](https://www.al-islam.org/a-muslim-in-society-al-balagh/jihad-
holy-struggle-obligatory-duty)

"a holy duty made obligatory upon all Muslims by Allah"

"Allah made jihad obligatory, in all its forms"

~~~
ameen
Jihad isn't obligatory, that's a perversion of the verse. The only obligations
are the 5 pillars of Islam - Belief in the Oneness of God, Salah (Prayer),
Hajj (Ritual Pilgrimage), Charity and Fasting during the month of Ramadan.

Also, Jihad doesn't refer to a violent battle. Jihad means struggle, struggle
to follow their faith. Violence is only the last step and often only in self-
preservation. Even then there are rules of engagement and not a barbaric
manner as depicted.

Struggle for self-preservation to follow Islam is no longer applicable IMO.
The West doesn't limit their citizens or visitors from following their faith.
Freedom of religion is a fundamental right, and as such no Muslim can claim to
be fighting for their religion when killing Innocents which is one of the
biggest sins.

~~~
mamon
Jihad was invented by Muhammad who was political and military leader in need
of big army to enable his conquest of Arabia. So when Muhammad spoke about
Jihad he meant it quite literaly: kill the infidels.

That "spiritual struggle" interpretation was invented later, by some imams,
who turned out to be better, more peaceful and compassionate human beings than
the prophet himself.

------
elcct
If time can be divided infinitely you can live any moment forever

~~~
sixQuarks
I forget the man's name, but he died a couple of years ago and was an amateur
chemist who used himself to test a bunch of different psychedelics that he
discovered. In one case, he swore that him and his wife spent an eternity
within one second. They were looking at a clock and the second hand was
frozen, they both confirmed this happened independently of each other. Take it
for what it's worth, but the mind may control time.

~~~
fsloth
There is nothing exceptional in having the perception of time altered. This
happens usually in accidents and such
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_motion_perception](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_motion_perception)

I felt this in a car crash once. It feels really strange.

To have this same experience triggered by a chemical is not hard to believe.

------
cairo_x
I'm doing something similar, but with cigarettes and coffee.

~~~
mark_edward
Amen

------
dogma1138
Jesus this is freaking morbid, I can understand suicide(side note: Apple won't
auto fill/correct suicide this is interesting) but how can you mummify
yourself pulling organs and draining blood sounds messy as hell.

~~~
e40
_but how can you mummify yourself pulling organs and draining blood sounds
messy as hell._

I read the article and I didn't see anything about that. It was more about the
diet before death that allows the mumification.

~~~
dogma1138
Ok so it did end at starvation and poison tea then, slightly relieved, I had
the image of egyptian mummification in mind in addition to that.

------
amitbr
I can understand why many would fail to see the value of this or classify the
practice as morbid, most of the people here are from a capitalist upbringing.
Here you are taught materialism is eveything. The idea to disconnect from the
material and ultimately release yourself from your ultimate possession (your
body) is an interesting spiritual practice undertaken by many ancient
philosophies. In fact, in India, there is a law that prevents devoted monks
from fasting to death for that very reason.

~~~
Noseshine
You fail to show that it _has_ any value.

    
    
      > disconnect from the material and ultimately release yourself from your ultimate
      > possession (your body) is an interesting spiritual practice
    

Humans have done that to each other since the very beginning, usually to
others but also to themselves. Why you would see that as something of value
would surely be interesting for us to read here, also what the difference is
between doing it to yourself compared to doing it to others.

I would like to point out though, as a mere materialist but with Eastern Bloc
communist upbringing instead of a capitalist one actually, I won't see a
reasoning that is based on some state changes happening inside the person's
brain as a useful justification, unless that has a (demonstrable) influence
beyond that person.

It's not that I'm greatly concerned about what people do to _themselves_ ,
just that you say we fail to see the value, which is very different and goes
far beyond arguing for letting people do what they want if it only affects
themselves.

