
Apple censors song about Tiananmen Square protests - _bxg1
https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/12/18305087/congress-apple-criticism-china-communist-tiananmen-pro-democracy
======
abalone
Worth noting that Apple "gets away" with more in China than most:

\- iMessage, one of the only end-to-end encrypted messaging systems widely
available in China.

\- iCloud Keychain, which they've designed to work securely on "adversarial
clouds"[1]

(Of course this may only be because not many people actually use these
features versus WeChat...)

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLGFriOKz6U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLGFriOKz6U)

~~~
cletus
> \- iMessage, one of the only end-to-end encrypted messaging systems widely
> available in China.

And those encryption keys are stored in China because the Chinese government
demanded it be so [1].

I believe it's also more subtle than that too. For example, if you (a non-
Chinese iMessage user) send a message to a Chinese iMessage user the key to
that exchange is now stored in China.

[1] [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-
insigh...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-
insight/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears-
idUSKCN1G8060)

~~~
Despegar
What? The point of end-to-end encryption is that Apple doesn't retain the
keys.

iMessage and FaceTime are end-to-end encrypted. And after Messages in iCloud,
you get the benefit of E2E while everything stays in sync across all your
devices [1].

It won't be long until this dumb narrative that ignores Apple's leverage in
China goes away. Once there's a trade deal they'll be allowed to own data
centers without JVs again [2].

[1] [https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/29/17405420/messages-
icloud-...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/29/17405420/messages-icloud-
ios-11-4-imessage-syncing-apple-iphone-feature)

[2] [https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-sweetens-its-cloud-
offer-...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-sweetens-its-cloud-offer-in-u-s-
trade-talks-11554976562)

------
caymanjim
I'm so sick of this story. Essentially the same story comes around once a
month. Apple is following the laws of a country they do business in. Full
stop. They are not censoring anything. The Chinese government is censoring.

There are plenty of things that the US government wouldn't let Apple publish.
We may all agree that they shouldn't be allowed to publish those things, but
it's not like China is the only country with laws.

It's naive and childish to expect a corporation to ignore the laws of a
country they operate in and forego a billion-person market over something as
petty as this. It's not Apple's job to fight your social justice battles. Quit
whining and take China on directly.

~~~
scarhill
The US has the first amendment. Can you give an example of something the US
government wouldn't let Apple publish?

~~~
caymanjim
Classified information, threats, bomb making instructions (borderline),
categories of pornography, pirated media, libelous statements, trade secrets.
Like I said, we may all agree that those things shouldn't be published--almost
the entire world would--but some of them may be legal in some jurisdictions
and not others, and there's a whole lot of grey area around the edges.

~~~
javagram
Classified information is regularly published in the news media, including
through Apple News.

Bomb making instructions are available in books on the iTunes Store.
[https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/u-s-army-special-forces-
gui...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/u-s-army-special-forces-guide-to-
unconventional-warfare/id1448347645?mt=11)

In general you can legally publish pretty much anything in the USA besides
child porn or copyright infringement, everywhere else has stricter laws
though.

------
gigatexal
They have to to appease the next big growth market: China. Courage would be
not doing business with China and their abhorrent government but alas even
Apple fears its shareholders more than its laurels.

------
eridius
What would you prefer?

* Apple censors a song to comply with Chinese laws, so you can't hear that song

* Apple doesn't censor the song, China blocks Apple Music, so you can't hear that song

Either way, you can't hear that song. Apple has to follow the laws of the
countries they do business in, and in China, that unfortunately sometimes
means censorship. This way people in China still have access to the rest of
Apple Music.

------
mikenew
It is interesting that Apple will take such a strong stance on privacy (Apple
vs. the FBI, for example), but they simply won't make a stand on censorship.

In fact I'd argue that censorship is part of their DNA. They've always removed
controversial apps from the app store [1][2], they've always deleted forum
threads that they don't like [3], and they're taking a very heavy handed
approach to their new TV service [4]. And, of course, they've never really
pushed back against China's demands. I admire their stance on privacy but they
don't seem to have any issue with censorship.

1 [https://www.digitalspy.com/videogames/a655089/games-that-
dis...](https://www.digitalspy.com/videogames/a655089/games-that-display-the-
confederate-flag-are-being-pulled-from-the-app-store/)

2 [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/30/apple-
rem...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/30/apple-removing-
drone-strikes-app)

3 [https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-defensive-over-consumer-
repo...](https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-defensive-over-consumer-reports-
findings-deletes-forum-threads/)

4 [https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/10/apple-will-
invest-1-b...](https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/10/apple-will-
invest-1-billion-in-tv-but-dont-expect-game-of-thrones/)

~~~
melling
What’s interesting is that people like yourself think the world is the same
everywhere.

China has a different culture and different laws that we do not control.

Companies have two choices: play by the rules or don’t play at all.

~~~
ardy42
> China has a different culture and different laws that we do not control.

That's true, but it's also not that simple. That different culture is not
uniform, and those laws may be illegitimate from many perspectives.

> Companies have two choices: play by the rules or don’t play at all.

The two choices company should have is play by _moral_ rules or not play at
all.

------
daeken
Is there a way to see what else is accessible from the Chinese iTunes store?
I'm curious if "Hypnotize" by System of a Down is accessible; the first line
is "Why don't you ask the kids at Tienanmen Square?"

~~~
yorwba
[https://applecensorship.com/](https://applecensorship.com/) currently only
covers the app store.

EDIT: There's a Chinese iTunes page for Hypnotize, and GreatFire's test
indicates that the same response is served to users in China as in the US
[https://en.greatfire.org/https/itunes.apple.com/cn/album/hyp...](https://en.greatfire.org/https/itunes.apple.com/cn/album/hypnotize/159457194)

EDIT 2: Actually, that GreatFire check would have been unnecessary, since the
censorship appears to be applied depending on the display language. Note the
conspicuously absent song #14 here, then change "cn" in the URL to "us" to see
it
[https://itunes.apple.com/cn/album/%E4%BA%BA%E9%96%93%E9%81%9...](https://itunes.apple.com/cn/album/%E4%BA%BA%E9%96%93%E9%81%93/41760298?i=41760411)

------
doe88
The price of doing business in China is losing his soul.

------
Razengan
Apple has also apparently disabled ratings on an official Chinese propaganda
app that is used against its citizens:

[https://imgur.com/a/60gdRZs](https://imgur.com/a/60gdRZs)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19603668](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19603668)

