
Creeping on You in the Cold Drinks Aisle - sundaeofshock
https://onefoottsunami.com/2019/02/27/creeping-on-you-in-the-cold-drinks-aisle/
======
Simulacra
Related for those that want to learn more about how retail establishments
track you: "No Place to Hide" by Robert O'Harrow Jr. Details the marketing and
retail industry's use of camera, AI, and customer tracking. The really scary
part is that it was written in 2004.

~~~
sphinxpy
Thanks for the recommendation. As for the year it doesn't shock me in certain
aspects. The camera data in the early 2000's is something I didn't consider
though.

I notice many people don't know or think that corporations use customer cards
for more than a discount. I worked for one of the largest retailers in the
U.S. and learned how far the "Plus" card data really goes. All of that data is
sold as very in detailed profiles of customers to brokers who sell the data to
other corporations and institutions.

I worked for them for 10 years and watched it evolve from data harvesting
through rewards cards to utilizing the checkout as an avenue of further data
collection through facial recognition cameras and even heat sensors throughout
the store building heat maps of customer flow.

I am not sure exactly about the heat map data being sold or not, however, I am
sure some broker could find a market for it but I do know the checkout camera
data was sold.

The company started utilizing the card system in the 90's and its checkout
camera with heat mapping in the early 2010's. Personally, I never used a
customer card with my name or address just to maintain some privacy level.

~~~
propogandist
There's an increasing amount of companies that are unfortunately using credit
cards to track consumers. The only reliable option to 'opt-out' of tracking
these days seems to be paying with cash.

I'm interested in hearing more about the point of sale tracking and facial
recognition though. Was face recognition just being used to track customers
around the store through to checkout? Or are you suggesting that 'face id'
data was captured and shared alongside purchasing activity, tied to the
individual to a 3rd party??

~~~
sphinxpy
At the time I left, which was 4 years ago roughly, the facial recognition was
used at the checkout area only. The perational area going from the beginning
of the gondolas (aisles) that are where you might say the back of a line would
be, all the way to the exit doors.

This covered a large area but the only area using this at the time. The face
ID system worked with the thermal mapping, which was used throughout the
store, to create a projected customer volume for the front end management to
prepare for. For instance the system tells the team that they have 1 register
open but need 3 open now and 5 in 1 hour.

The data from the facial recognition cameras was sold, this I know for
certain, however, I do not know to what amount that data was put into the
specific customer profile being built. My honest impression is it was being
sold in a package with card profiles to make a better product for brokers.

I've gone through meetings of how much this company wants to track you, how
granular the specific customer profile was before the face & heat map system
and the companies drive to find a place in the newer data markets that its
competition was dealing in, in order to stay in business.

~~~
propogandist
this is facinating information. I hadn't thought retailers were this
sophisticated with tracking users in-store, let alone few years ago. That
said, the use case you've noted, like alerting where more registers are
needed, make perfect sense.

The face recognition piece is something I'm still trying to wrap my head
around. If they were selling facial recognition data to a 3rd party, and this
is a common practice within the industry, there is (presumably) an
intermediary that has a very comprehensive view of all consumer purchasing
behavior in a given geography and can (potentially) track people in real-time.

Can you comment on some of the data brokers / tech players in this space [?]
Is it the likes of acxiom? I've seen data being purchased where there's
mastercard & visa purchase information, but it was all in aggregate and for
silly things like banner advertising. I'm curious at who's in this space and
how they're monetizing this data. It sounds like a (potential) goldmine for
market researchers, marketers and manufacturers.

Also, were there any mechanisms to stop competing retailers from buying this
data and luring away loyal customers?

~~~
sphinxpy
I'll do my best to with the information I have to answer.

Can I name specific players who are brokers/buyers?

To put it simply no, I was never made aware to whom the company sold this
information to exactly. I would be highly interested to know the specifics of
this part of chain as well. I was lower in the totem pole with friends and
good relations further up that made me aware of the practices.

In my role, we were told details on the collection of information and how the
company used it in house. Those higher up were made aware of the practices I
mentioned earlier and through conversations with multiple people who would
know, it was made abundantly clear that this was going on and our competition
was participating in similar practices as well.

How was it monetized?

So specifically, I can speak to the rewards card aspect and what the profiles
looked like to us and what I was told happens to them when sold. Although I'm
sure you probably know, when I say "plus" card or "rewards" card, I am
referring to an in-house system that the customer signs up for in the store
with personal information which they are then given a card for that retailer
which gives lower prices and "bonus" coupons sent by mail, until coupons moved
to a digital format. Some retailers do it differently but with ours, it was
almost a necessity to have it just to shop there due to price differences. It
would be much more expensive to not use our card system .

When the customer signs up, they are asked Name, Age, Address and Phone
Number. Scanning the card at checkout gave the customer those possible savings
advertised on shelf as well as later on in its role, the customer would have
E-coupons loaded directly on to the account that this card was tied, which
were based off of the buying habits and influenced by seasonal changes.

It put a list of everything you ever bought and applied that to the
information given upon signing up such as age and where you lived which gave
information on the demographics of the customer(I am not sure if it was in-
house or if this was a third party's work).

It was shortly before I left in about 2014 that we had meetings discussing
just how much data was in the card holder profile. Again not sure if all this
was done by them but we talked about buying habits, health and wellbeing
status based on diet, income, frequency of trips, gasoline purchases in our
fuel centers and major gasoline player who had a partnership with us and there
was specifically a push for the card system to be moved over to an app that
gave the company location data. This was something they really were pushing
for at the time.

So these profiles of a customer were sold in bundles of groupings.
Demographics of a certain type would be in this group or that group based on
what they could ascertain through your buying habits and social standings with
groups of similar incomes.

From my understanding people in multiple industries were buying this so that
could utilize a subset of the data within the profile to target certain people
or build a profile of a certain area to get better ideas of future business
opportunities possibly coming to those locations and how to maximize their
profits by tailoring the services to that area.

How it got to them and how it was applied with facial recognition data, I was
not aware of, only that it was also being sold in some way. I did not know
what if any rules there were on competitors data and how that was handled once
it went to those buying this information. I know our competition had many of
the same practices that probably built similar data sets but I am thinking
there were ways to mitigate anything being given out that would give an edge
to competition. I say that based on how we viewed and interacted with those
other stores and my employer were obsessive of getting the smallest of
advantage over everyone around them.

I am sorry this is so long but I wanted to give what I could in as much
details as I had. Its a very interesting topic that people are shocked by when
they learn about it. I also wish I could give exact players further along the
supply chain but I don't have the facts on that specific although, as I said,
I would be very interested to know myself.

------
whoisjuan
For anyone wondering, this is how they look:
[https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/737135814.webp?mw=1000&mh=562&q...](https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/737135814.webp?mw=1000&mh=562&q=70)

~~~
exodust
And if your browser doesn't like the Google Chrome-only webp image format...

[https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/737135814.webp.png](https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/737135814.webp.png)

~~~
gglitch
It's amazing that the blurry interstitial text visible between two shelves
reads, "We'll help protect you." How did that get past the Orwell filter?

------
mathgeek
> Depending on the jurisdiction, the software may process facial images of
> consumers in real-time ...

Perfect example of how there will always be a company that will do whatever
they want as long as local laws don't prohibit it.

~~~
OldHand2018
> do whatever they want as long as local laws don't prohibit it

Both Walgreens and the company making the technology are based in a place
where this is illegal.

------
akamoonknight
I see something similar to this in the testing done for self driving cars.
There's a lot of cars driving around that have a lot of sensors, sometimes on
my 15 minute drive I see 5 or more. I'm sure that these cars are tracking
information about the cars they drive past and have enough resolution to
uniquely identify drivers. The fact they all share information with each and
can aggregate that into a cohesive picture feels like an extreme invasion of
privacy, even though I'm theoretically driving around in the public domain.
Now, I still use Google maps to navigate around, so they know my location
anyways, but I guess my fear is that more and more, even if you were able to
totally 'disconnect', there's still no way to keep yourself private. This has
probably always strictly been the case, my movements could always
theoretically be tracked, but the capabilities are just becoming more and more
clear to me.

It really feels to me like the line between public and private needs to be re-
evaluated, and even though life will go on anyways, the future worries me
quite a bit.

------
tomatotomato37
Honestly my biggest frustration with this is how much a complete waste of
resources this is. The same practical effect could be achieved by installing
the trackers/whatever on the outskirts of a standard door, replacing the price
labels with 7 segments LEDs, and beefing up the glass insulation a bit;
instead we are slapping a giant custom screen that has to be powered 24/7 over
the mess that's probably going to end up more fragile than the average phone
and uses more rare-earth's than the tesla parked outside.

~~~
cr0sh
> replacing the price labels with 7 segments LEDs

I recently went into a local Best Buy location after not having stepped inside
one in about 10 years...

...aside from being impressed at how low the price was for a Samsung 85" QLED
4K television (about $3k USD - dirt cheap IMHO) - I was more intrigued by the
price labels on the racks and such.

It was something I only noticed after being there for 30 minutes or so, which
either shows my age, lack of awareness, or something like that - or it shows
just how things now blend in.

All of the labels were some kind of "e-ink" based wireless tagging system.

They had fooled me for a good while that they were the old-style paper labels
that BB used to use, stuck in slip-case transparent windows on or near the
merchandise. To my eyes, they were almost flawless. Looking closer, I could
see certain issues that (besides the fact of the electronic frame they were in
- which was really thin and subtle) revealed their true nature: Missing
pixels, jaggies (like a bad fax), etc.

Best Buy used to be "the place" I went for electronics, when they first came
to the Phoenix area (early 90s). I helped to establish my credit using their
in-store credit card system.

But that recent experience of visiting them left a bad taste in my mouth. It
wasn't the price labels, or even really their prices (which really weren't too
outlandish) - it was just the whole feel of the place. Something seemed off
about it, like it was trying to be something that just wasn't "it" any longer.

Kinda like how K-Mart felt when places like Target and Walmart became "big" (I
find both of those places, though, to feel similar to BB as well).

The only thing I can attribute this to is how easy it has become to shop
online for stuff, and the fact that I do most of my shopping online period.
The only stuff I don't shop online for has been groceries and other food
items. I expect that to change in the future, though.

My only other shopping experiences - and the ones I enjoy - have been at what
can only be described as "second-hand marketplaces" \- used book stores,
surplus electronics outlets, junkyards, hamfests, etc.

Strangely, I prefer "shopping" at these places more than the general
"commercial" outlets. For some reason, they are more comfortable to shop
at/with - they feel less sanitized and more personal to me...

------
blue4
Walgreens probably still does those late night stickers for price changes, if
anything needs to be digitized it would be that. For the benefit of the
employees that have to do that painful mess of a price change constantly. Next
time you visit a Walgreens or similar store and see tags everywhere just
consider how much waste there is to do that every week, sometimes with the
same prices just a new colored sticker.

~~~
heywire
We've had digitized (eInk, LCD) price tags for well over a decade now. They
just haven't seemed to take off anywhere except for Kohls (at least in my
area).

~~~
cr0sh
I noted in an earlier comment that I recently saw virtually complete usage of
e-ink price tags at Best Buy (some fairly large - like tablet display size).
But Kohls is where I first encountered them in the wild - they seem to be one
of the earlier adopters.

------
huffmsa
> _We do not save the videos or images beyond this processing._

So they're just going to magically improve their models with zero real-world
data?

I can hear the noses growing.

~~~
everdrive
I assumed they were playing the old Facebook trick. "We don't save the images,
just the data model that our computer builds from the images, so it's totally
ok."

~~~
huffmsa
Going back and re-reading the excerpt that does appear to be what they're
doing.

------
technobabble
If anybody wants to see them in person, they are being tested in the Chicago
Walgreens on Michigan ave. by the Chicago theater.

~~~
glup
Anyone who wants to be seen by them in person can go to the same location.

~~~
mastrsushi
The store has cctv's, so you're going to be captured regardless.

------
spectramax
The whole advertisement industry and everything related to it is rotten. Why
is today's marketing so filled with vile psychological tricks, creepy things
like these coolers, always on mics, analytics about EVERYTHING, store smells
and "branding, profiling and recommendation engines...I could go on and on
about how advertisement is infuriating today. In old days, you might see ads
in a magazine or a newspaper in the same way we see ads on Google, but they
didn't have the kind of people coming up with insanely creepy ideas like
today. I don't want to hang out with these folks. Who are these people?

It is infuriating.

Are there any sane alternatives to advertisement today? I don't want banners
and flashing ads. Is there a model of advertisement which is "pull" instead of
"push"? Kind of like trade shows but for the internet? I LOVE going to trade
shows. There is so much value as an industrial consumer (I am an engineer) in
attending trade shows - they provide real life demonstrations, new technology,
latest methods and processes, face-to-face with people and I honestly don't
mind people scanning my badges because there is _consent_.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
> Why is today's marketing so filled with vile psychological tricks

Because we didn't outlaw them, and mostly liberalised regulations around
advertising. If they can, they will. It really does seem to be as simple as
that.

~~~
grkvlt
You say _today 's marketing_ but this has been going on for a while now...!
It's been at least sixty years since Vance Packard's [0] 1957 book, 'The
Hidden Persuaders' was published, which was probably the first time the public
learned about these tricks.

0\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vance_Packard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vance_Packard)

~~~
NeedMoreTea
I was quoting parent, but the worst tricks have mostly been enabled by tech -
the sixties through the millennium seem quite benign compared to today.

------
mastrsushi
I think we are mistaking creepy for analytical visual profiling and database
management. The idea of physical customers being captured as users with
records of personal sales trends based on demographics, social behavior, and
appearance is interesting. Ads will exist whether we like it it not. If
tracking software can at least make these annoying ads more accurate, why not?
Not to mention, the survelliance will reduce shop lifting and provide more
details to authorities by pinpointing suspects.

~~~
taneq
The focus on "advertising" in all of these discussions is misleading. It's not
about ads. It's about creating an information asymmetry in the market in order
to exploit people.

The market is a hidden-information game. If you know that I _need_ the
medicine or I'll die, you can charge me every cent I own for it and I have to
pay. If I know that you _need_ to sell to make your monthly repayments, I know
I can lowball you. The party with the most information is at an advantage. And
invading peoples' privacy puts them at a commercial disadvantage.

~~~
mastrsushi
We all read about Martin Shkreli, but this is about convenient store products.
The worst case being Plan B pills, which I don't see being any more exploited
than their current outrageous $50 value.

~~~
perl4ever
Once you have entered a grocery or convenience store, you are fairly
committed. That is, if you notice something is priced outrageously, you could
conceivably get mad enough to walk out, but an awful lot of things could have
their price doubled and you would still buy it _if_ it is what you came for
specifically and you aren't paying attention. Even if you are paying
attention, it costs money and time to drive elsewhere. If someone knows that
you are thirsty and only came in for a cold drink, they could increase its
price. If someone knows you are late for something, they can probably increase
the price of what you need to buy even more. People vastly underestimate the
manipulative power of information.

------
reidjs
Don't see the big deal about yet another screen/ advertisement platform,
especially in a public convenience store. The fact that 'it watches you' is a
creepy for sure, but don't forget they've already got video cameras in most
these stores. Admittedly the intent is different (crime prevention vs
marketing), but I couldn't care less if they know what kind of soda I like.

~~~
jamestanderson
I just hate the feeling that we're moving towards a world where you can't go
anywhere without being sold something or having your thoughts manipulated by a
carefully crafted advertising campaign. I can control to some extent what I
see online, not so much in the "real world".

~~~
morpheuskafka
> you can't go anywhere without being sold something

Hmm, that's so different from what the purpose of a grocery _store_ is
supposed to be right?

~~~
lmitchell
Aren't they different, though? When I go into a grocery store, the deal is,
they put out a selection of things, I pick the ones I want, then I go home.
This is actively trying to manipulate me _personally_ into buying something
that _is not_ one of my original desires.

I mean, I guess grocery stores already do this in some ways, in choosing what
to feature... they do effectively 'advertise' certain products. But this seems
more like it's trying to manipulate my behaviours, rather than trying to
fulfill my desires as well as possible. I'm not sure how different it is...
but it feels a lot different to me.

~~~
jack_h
A grocery store already manipulates consumers though, e.g. they put the milk
at the very back so you have to walk through the store which increases the
chances you'll buy something else.

~~~
cr0sh
They also place things up high on shelves, or down low - depending on what the
item is, what the manufacturer or reseller has purchased in space, who it is
marketed to (for instance, certain cereals are placed lower for kids to see).

Part of this is why I prefer to shop at Business Costco for a lot of things.
While I am sure a similar tactic is being done, it is being aimed at other
businesses - and since I am not a business, it doesn't affect me as much
(though it does confuse me why they place certain things side by side - but if
you think about it like what businesses are looking for and the type of
business - then the placements make more sense).

