
Amazon's Chinese Counterfeit Problem Is Getting Worse - dforrestwilson
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/08/amazons-chinese-counterfeit-problem-is-getting-worse.html
======
macNchz
This has become a frustrating part of shopping on Amazon, to the point that I
typically filter to only show things sold by Amazon themselves. Too many of
the marketplace items are fake crap with paid-for reviews. Since they're mixed
in together by default, the effort in trying to discern good from bad makes
for a pretty crummy experience overall.

~~~
syshum
This will not always save you. If a company uses the "Fulfilled by Amazon"
service they ship their stuff to amazon and it is co mingled with all of the
other SKU's purporting to be the same item, including Amazons own stock

~~~
manyxcxi
Exactly this. The article mentions that they basically take all the same
products and put them together. So seller B's fake item may be sold as seller
A's real item and seller A gets blamed for their fake stuff.

It's gotten so bad with certain groups of items I don't even try. Sunglasses,
handbags, all the usual stuff you'd expect.

My anecdote: I like gold colored Ray-Ban aviators with a brown or dark
polarized lens. The two stores near me didn't have them in stock, I couldn't
find my old pair and I was leaving for a week long motorcycle ride in two
days. I ordered them up and immediately knew they were fake. They were too
light, the nose pads weren't right, all the usual tells. I returned them 3
different times until I just cancelled.

~~~
WillPostForFood
I understand the frustration, you can easily end up buying from a chinese
seller if you aren't playing attention. But I have a hard time understanding
how you were fooled three times.

[https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-
listing/B000EYP57K/ref=dp_ol...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-
listing/B000EYP57K/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=new)

Buy from Amazon - the second choice. Pretty sure that is the default purchase
option on the main page as well.

~~~
syshum
Clearly you do not understand how Amazon Warehouses work

Just because you buy someing from Seller A, even if Seller A is Amazon LLC,
you may not be getting stock from Seller A

If I am A retailer selling SuperWidget 55, and I ship Amazon 100 Genuine
SuperWidget's to store in their warehouse for amazon to ship to my customers
(aka Amazon Fulfillment Service) . Then another competitor ship 100 Fake
SuperWidgets to amazons warehouse. All Amazon records is they have 200
SuperWidgets.

When a Customer orders a SuperWidget, they will get what ever SuperWidget is
closest to their location, and a random one from that location, it may not be
my SuperWidget but one of the 100 fake ones, even though the customer selected
to order from me.

So then the next question is why would a retailer use Amazon Fulfillment, well
if you want to get any Prime buyers you must, as if you do not use Amazon
Fulfillment your orders are not "Prime Eligible" which eliminates a huge
number of consumers.

~~~
ikeboy
You can choose whether to turn on comingling when using FBA.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
That only matters if you can choose to exclude comingling when buying.

~~~
ikeboy
"So then the next question is why would a retailer use Amazon Fulfillment"

You implied that sellers are required to use it.

Edit: it's a different user that replied to me, my mistake.

Also, Amazon tracks which order came from whose inventory, so if it's reported
as fake they can punish the right seller. Any system of that size is going to
have some slip through, but Amazon does a lot to vet sellers for specific
products, categories, and so on. Just recently certain iPads were restricted,
and I couldn't get approved with retail receipts, they wanted invoices from
authorized distributors, for example.

As a buyer you can't do much about comingling, but that shouldn't be relevant
except for products with an abnormally high counterfeit rate. And you will get
your money back with very little hassle when buying FBA (they refund you
immediately and then require you to return it), and it helps hurt the bad
seller. The fact is the vast majority of purchases on Amazon are legitimate. I
agree Amazon needs to do something about their image, but it doesn't seem to
be hurting their sales. And who else are you going to go to? eBay is even
worse, and retailers are more expensive most if the time.

------
iandanforth
I get the feeling that Chinese businesses (who are making the real products as
well) are shouting to the American consumer "you are getting ripped off,
here's how much these products cost without a _huge_ profit margin."

There are plenty of low quality fakes, but as Jack Ma said, some are better
than the licenced versions.

~~~
kazinator
Some system of clamps and shock cords for holding down a fitted bed sheets can
hardly _be_ fake. Anyone's implementation is likely as good as anyone else's.

Though Whalley has a patent on it, the article claims, prior art for the basic
idea can be seen on any truck that has a tarp tied down over a bunch of cargo.

~~~
eli
The knockoff razor blades, however, are not nearly as sharp as the real ones.

~~~
seanp2k2
I've purchased Feather and Derby blades on Amazon and they're stupid sharp.
Which brands have you had bad luck with? Assuming DESR here.

~~~
eli
I mean actual counterfeits. Like the packaging _says_ Schick but they are much
worse quality and clearly not authentic if you look closely. I got my money
back easily, but still an unpleasant experience.

------
dharmon
The book _The Everything Store_ talks about how Amazon uses counterfeit goods
to sort-of blackmail high-end goods to letting them sell.

I think the book gave the example of a high-end kitchen knife brand, maybe
Wüsthof, that would not allow Amazon to sell their knives. Before you know it,
cheap knockoffs appeared claiming to be Wüsthof knives. When they let Amazon
sell the real deal, suddenly the knockoffs disappeared from the store.

I have a feeling the same thing is happening with the high-end perfumeries,
like Creed. Everything sold on Amazon is a knockoff because the company
doesn't sell there. I bet if they did, the fake stuff would magically
disappear...

~~~
cstejerean
I don't think it's blackmail. I wonder if brands like Wüsthof got exclusive
agreements as part of selling on Amazon so that nobody else is allowed to list
their product, therefore eliminating the knockoffs. But without an official
listing then Amazon would have to sort through every reseller to see if they
are selling legitimate products or not, and what incentive would Amazon have
to do that?

~~~
tehwebguy
Amazon does make deals like that. GoPro, Sony, Samsung, Nest and tons of other
brands are (for the most part, at least) locked down.

------
Udo_Schmitz
Every time I see counterfeit power adapters/chargers on Amazon I wonder why
the original maker–e.g. Apple–doesn’t lean on Amazon to stop the sale of
those. Additionally, if someone dies or a house burns down[0], couldn’t that
open Amazon to lawsuits? [0] [http://www.righto.com/2014/05/a-look-inside-
ipad-chargers-pr...](http://www.righto.com/2014/05/a-look-inside-ipad-
chargers-pricey.html)

~~~
imaginenore
Because there's no easy way of telling if they are fake. What if they bought a
bunch at the Apple store and are selling them at a lower price to get rid of
the inventory?

~~~
Udo_Schmitz
Sometimes it is very easy to tell but Amazon will ship it to customers anyway.
Imagine you are looking for a "85W MagSafe 2 Power Adapter" for a MacBook Pro
at Amazon.com. First link after search for "apple power adapter for macbook
pro" goes to:

[https://www.amazon.com/Apple-MagSafe-Adapter-MacBook-
Display...](https://www.amazon.com/Apple-MagSafe-Adapter-MacBook-
Display/dp/B008ALAAV0/ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1468194829&sr=1-2&keywords=apple+power+adapter+for+macbook+pro)

Now read this review (verified purchase):

[https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-
reviews/RNA9AYHGA5JG0/ref...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-
reviews/RNA9AYHGA5JG0/ref=cm_cr_getr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B008ALAAV0)

------
kelukelugames
Chinese counterfeit Magic cards are a disruptor.

Wizards of the Coast, Magic's parent company, maintains a reversed list of
historic cards. Listed cards can never be reprinted to protect their prices on
the secondary market for collectors. Many players complain this is a bad for
the game. As the counterfeits are getting better, more players buy them,
pressuring Wizard to act. Maybe Wizards will abolish the reserved list.

Reserved list: [http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/official-
reprin...](http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/official-reprint-
policy-2010-03-10)

More links: [http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27693_Counterfeit-
Cards...](http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27693_Counterfeit-Cards.html)

[http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/how-to-dismantle-
the...](http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/how-to-dismantle-the-reserved-
list/)

~~~
stephengillie
The argument could be made that players are simply trying to play with cards
they can't normally obtain. Obvious counterfeits have often been allowed in
unofficial games "by proxy" \- allowing players to construct more powerful
decks than they could afford.

It would then come down to how much the counterfeit is worth to the player. So
long as these aren't being passed off as legitimate cards, I don't see an
issue.

~~~
epimetheus
Do most places allow this proxy card without owning the actual card these
days? Back when I played in 93-97 you could use proxy cards, but it was
usually a land card marked with an indicator of the real card, and the person
had to pull out their real card (usually in a plastic case) to show they
actually had it (and show the stats).

I had a friend with a color printer that tried to make counterfeit cards to
use as proxies (not to try and sell, the printer he had back then was not very
good), he got caught at a game night at a shop (unofficial tournament) and was
actually banned from there.

~~~
bpicolo
Sometimes a store will hold proxy tournaments for certain formats, but not for
the standard format, and they can't be officially sanctioned events.

There was a big deal about it recently with relation to counterfeiting.
[http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/proxies-
po...](http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/proxies-policy-and-
communication-2016-01-14)

~~~
seanp2k2
I don't play any card games, but what's honestly the big deal? Is the game
about card-collecting skills, or deck-building and play strategy? It's hard to
argue the latter and ban people for not having an original version of a card.
I guess I don't really "get it", or I had way too much fun playing ridiculous
mods (where it was fair because everyone had equally ridiculous stuff) for
games (Mr. Pants Excessive Overkill for Quake 3 comes to mind). IMO it'd be
fun to play some Magic tournament with all fake cards, so everyone could build
their dream decks, then see who was better at building the best deck and
better with play strategy.

~~~
CamperBob2
This. In addition to card games that intentionally reward skilled
counterfeiters, there should be MMO games designed to reward the best hackers
and botmakers. Also, there should be an "unlimited" category in real-life
events like the Olympics and Tour de France, where the team with the best drug
lab wins.

I think we'll start to see more and more games like this emerge over the next
few years/decades, as the possibilities of traditional sports and games (and
the humans who play them) are exhausted.

------
etrautmann
A coworker just spent three days debugging a new server build, and it turned
out to be a fake Xeon processor purchased from Amazon. Absolutely unbelievably
executed fake, but the machine wouldn't even POST.

------
novaleaf
Ironic anicdote: I order a cheap ($50) generic waterproof jacket from Amazon
and got what was obviously a counterfit Northface (with branding and
everything). Thankfully they sold and priced it as a generic so I knew what I
was getting. Overall a reasonable coat but the detail elements (velcro and
straps) were of poor quality.

~~~
dfc
You ordered a cheap jacket and the quality of the jacket you received was
commensurate with the price and met your expectations. What is the irony?

~~~
novaleaf
the irony is that I ordered a cheap __generic __jacket and got a cheap
__counterfeit __jacket.

meaning I was OK with generic Chinese merchandise, but it is more convenient
for them to supply counterfeits than to produce something actually white-
labeled.

~~~
dfc
Why would it be cheaper to design, make and sell two different jackets versus
one?

~~~
oldbuzzard
Well Yes. That's the irony. If you had even minimal trademark enforcement, the
risk ratio would encourage you to manufacture and sell white label and
counterfeit jackets as separate firewalled vendors. So one could be shut down
without effecting the other. Here the risk is clearly so low they don't even
bother... or maybe they have firewalled vendors and the cost of setting up a
generic vendor is so low that its less than the dual manufacturing pipeline...
either way that's the irony.

~~~
dfc
Irony != Counter intuitive

------
jeffdavis
This can be solved by requiring higher-risk merchants to put money in escrow
for a while (maybe an initial amount plus some fraction of revenue). If they
turn out to be selling counterfeits, amazon could use the money to set things
right. Otherwise the merchant gets the money.

~~~
stordoff
Don't Amazon already do this? IIRC from the few things I have sold on Amazon,
I had to wait 2-4 weeks after an order for the money to be paid into my bank
account.

~~~
ikeboy
Yes. For the first six months after you start selling there's a two week
reserve (plus the standard settlement wait). Every time you have a significant
increase in sales they'll apply a reserve and monitor your metrics before
removing it.

------
kakuri
It's infuriatingly difficult to buy anything of quality on Amazon. I really
hope they improve the situation.

~~~
blantonl
Their EC2 servers are pretty good quality.

~~~
carterehsmith
This reminds of something I read - apparently, for whatever reason, not all
EC2 instances of the same class perform the same. So, some large AWS customers
(like Netflix) keep spawning instance, run some benchmarks on them, then if
the instance is in top X% as far as performance goes, they keep it; otherwise
they drop it. Which means that, what a regular customer gets, is an instance
that someone (or multiple someones) found not good enough and dropped ;]

~~~
superuser2
Do we have reason to believe low performance is an enduring property of the
instance, or could it just be that instance performance varies over time (i.e.
when neighbors are hungrier)?

------
KKKKkkkk1
My problem with Amazon is not that it sells cheap low-quality stuff, it's that
the cheap products are not really cheap. I buy off-brand Chinese stuff on
AliExpress and could not be more happy with them; the prices on Amazon can
easily reach 10x those of Ali.

~~~
awqrre
But there is more bad sellers on aliexpress... so you have to make sure that
you check sellers reviews...

------
discardorama
The biggest problem with Amazon reviews is that they'll _let you post a review
of something you never bought!_ Sure, they do add the "verified purchase" tag
for things you bought; but for calculating the aggregate stats, etc. Amazon
will cleverly ignore the fact that you could just be talking out your ass (or
selling reviews). I find this very dirty on their part, and it's something
that can be fixed with 1 line of code.

~~~
techthroway443
This seems like the most sensible solution and would easily weed out 99% of
these fake paid for reviews. Is there a way to filter ratings by verified
purchasers?

Why don't they do this by default?

~~~
tombrossman
This isn't automatically a good thing. Let me give you an example. I had a
very persistent Amazon Marketplace seller who kept deleting and re-posting a
listing for a specific mobile phone dock I was trying to find. They were
selling a fake phone dock using the image and details of a hard to find one I
really wanted. I ordered it several times and they shipped a completely
different product - different look, color, brand, it was the cheapest garbage
ever. Amazon refunded all my costs each time, and because the seller was a
punk and refused to pay return shipping I threw them all away. No money out of
my pocket.

The reason they would keep deleting and re-listing the item is because I would
leave bad (but factually correct) reviews when I kept trying to find the phone
dock and seeing their new listing in Amazon's search results. Their re-listing
action caused my reviews to disappear because it was a 'new' product listing
with their same fake photo every time. I flagged this repeatedly to Amazon as
fraud via chat, email, and telephone and they never took any action. This went
on for months, and Amazon never addressed it.

So my point is that by allowing anyone to post a review, you give consumers
one more tool to warn each other about fraud and unethical sellers. Yes there
are a lot of fake reviews, but there are also legit buyers out there too and
we are willing to pester fake sellers for months and cost them a fair amount
of losses (postage, abandoned fakes because they don't want them back).

Sellers know they can delete & re-list fakes all day long to disassociate
negative feedback for an item , and they know Amazon will never ban them.

~~~
tabio
> and because the seller was a punk and refused to pay return shipping I threw
> them all away

That's not "punk" \-- the seller doesn't want the garbage anymore than you do.
Most vendors of inexpensive products don't want you to mail back returns. It's
not worth it.

------
hobaak
AliExpress is increasing serving more US customers for looking for bargain
price. I guess that Amazon is aware of that so they take blind eye for the low
priced counterfeits.

------
shostack
For some categories where Amazon sells its own brand (which keeps growing), I
wonder if this benefits Amazon.

------
jgalt212
I bought a new "Sony" universal remote from Amazon. It came wrapped in a clear
plastic baggie with no box or instructions. It worked and looks legit, so more
likely this item was stolen or sold as new when it wasn't more so than a fake
from China. But maybe it was a fake, just a very good one probably made at the
same factory that makes the "real" Sony remotes.

As Brexit has shown us, there are plenty of downsides to Globalization. Amazon
needs to get better at KYC, but Jeff's growth at any cost mantra just won't
embrace that and his lieutenants will find it's hard to argue with results.
Until this sort of stuff makes a dent in Amazon's top line, I believe they
won't really crack down on this.

------
kev6168
My anecdote: more than a few times I was asked by small Chinese sellers on
Amazon and Ebay (introduced by mutual acquaintances) to help them write emails
to press unhappy customers to remove their negative reviews left on Amazon or
Ebay, in exchange for freebies and credit. The sellers would ask me to write
all sorts of fake sad stories like some poor girl would lose her job or the
company had to shut down if the negative review was not turned into a positive
one. I was really disgusted and turned them down each time. The moral: in most
cases don't believe those fake stories. The review system needs to be
protected for everyone's benefit.

------
davidf18
Firms should start using serial numbers for their products that can be
verifiable on the web and in fact could be registered with the manufacturer.

A totally different and important problem is counterfeit drugs. There are ways
to battle counterfeit drugs.

~~~
ikeboy
Most items aren't expensive enough to be worth it.

------
dmritard96
Its interesting how much sympathy is expected for these people who make a
silly little product and have foreign competition, but would a reaction be
similar if it was an Amazon Basics product?

~~~
dmritard96
Not sure I understand the downvoting here but fine. perhaps clarifying my
question would help.

Today:

Brand 1 makes product and sells on Amazon. Files IP to try and prevent others
from copying their idea.

Brand 2 (Chinese company) makes similar product and sells through amazon -
results in headlines like - Amazon has a Chinese problem.

Brand 3 (Amazon Basics) - makes similar products and has Chinese supplier add
logo to their generic product. Even though brand 1 has the same problem
(arguably worse), because Amazon does it instead of a Chinese company it is
seen as less problematic.

~~~
detaro
Are there Amazon Basics products where IP is an issue? I only know them from
USB chargers, cables, rechargeable batteries, …, stuff where there is little
innovation.

~~~
dmritard96
[http://www.geek.com/news/amazonbasics-is-copying-all-the-
bes...](http://www.geek.com/news/amazonbasics-is-copying-all-the-best-
products-on-amazon-and-selling-them-for-less-1652879/)

They had a design patent (basically meaningless) and amazon just modded and
started owning them.

------
vorotato
It sounds like what the real issue is, is a lack of designers. Counterfeiting
is what you do when you are great at making things, but don't know how to make
something that people want to use. A good designer (and a little marketing)
could fix this.

------
double0jimb0
Amazon sellers could stand to look at their collective bargaining power.

------
kazinator
And of course Jamie Whalley has nothing Made in China in her home. Just "real"
stuff.

> _Her patented product called BedBand consists of a set of shock cords,
> clamps and locks designed to keep fitted bed sheets in place._

All these parts made in USA?

~~~
xienze
People are downvoting, but if her product is manufactured in China that's
pretty much the reason her product was copied in such short order.

~~~
WillPostForFood
It isn't manufactured in China, that's one of their main selling points.

------
berntb
The product I've seen crash and burn in quality on Amazon UK is Koss PortaPro
headphones. Loved those for many years, but the last few broke inside weeks.

I am wondering if I should try to buy a last pair directly from the
manufacturer. I am quite happy with my new Sennheiser, but they don't feel
right...

Anyone in the US with recent experience?

~~~
kawsper
I bought a small "SanDisk" branded USB-storage device, I plugged it in, and
started transferring files to it while I went to lunch.

When I came back, the transfer was complete, I unplugged the device, and I
burned my fingers!

So now I have a broken USB-port in my Macbook, because I trusted Amazon to not
sell me a fake product. I wrote a review, and rated it poorly, but they are
still selling it[0], and most reviews are positive. They even write "by
Sandisk", and "Dispatched from and sold by Amazon".

[https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005FYNSZA/](https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005FYNSZA/)

