
My experiment with smart drugs (2008) - pw
http://www.johannhari.com/2008/05/06/my-experiment-with-smart-drugs
======
jrockway
Why do articles about any drug that affects the mind always have a section
about, "what if I used this during exams?"

Who cares?

School is an anomaly that's not worth discussing in the context of "mental
enhancement". Exams make you do the exact same thing as everyone else to see
where you rank relative to them and produces no actual value. Computers do
this sort of work much better than humans, so there is really no _actual_
point (except to assign rankings to individuals so the Corporate World doesn't
have to come up with tough interview questions, or whatever.)

The real world is not like this; the game is not zero-sum. When you write an
article, it doesn't directly make someone else's articles more or less
valuable, it merely adds to the sum total of human work. Anything that allows
the sum-total of human work to increase at a faster rate is good. It doesn't
matter if you opt-out of taking "viagra for the brain", your contribution is
still just as valuable as before. But if someone else does choose to take
drugs, then they may be able to add value more quickly, which is as good for
you as it is for them. Now you have more stuff to build off of, which is
always going to get you farther than any drug would. (Try discarding 5000
years of human experience and seeing if a drug gets it all back. It won't even
come close.)

In the real world, artificial performance-enhancers don't matter. And we
shouldn't ignore their possible benefits because someone might get a higher
test score if they take them; school is not so important that we should throw
the rest of the world under a bus to cater to its strange needs.

~~~
WilliamLP
What comes to mind is Paul Erdos being jacked up on Benzedrine and Ritalin
nearly every day for the last 25 years of his life and undoubtedly
contributing a massive amount to modern mathematics. (There was a life hacker
in every possible sense.)

~~~
kwamenum86
"You shouldn't have mentioned the stuff about Benzedrine. It's not that you
got it wrong. It's just that I don't want kids who are thinking about going
into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed."

Paul Erdos, re: a 1987 Atlantic Monthly article profiling his work

~~~
andreyf
Isn't that quote a bit hypocritical?

~~~
VMG
He started taking it it because of his depression, not because he wanted to
boost his productivity - he was devastated after his mother died.

~~~
gcanyon
At some point he was bet that he couldn't go without it; he did, but then said
that doing so had set back mathematics for as long as he had been off the
drugs. So I'd say he thought it boosted his productivity.

------
hotpockets
One interesting thing I learned by getting my genes sequenced is that provigil
would apparently have no effect on me. This would probably account for why a
lot of people think provigil/modafinil didn't do anything for them.

About 25% of people of caucasion decent are (A,A) at rs4680, which is in the
COMT gene whose enzyme degrades dopamine/epinephrine. Modafinil probably works
by raising these catecholamines (at least in part). I haven't read it but the
study is here: <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19037200?dopt=Abstract>

~~~
DavidSJ
Where does one go and how much does it cost to get your genes sequenced these
days?

~~~
zemaj
$400-$500 US at <https://www.23andme.com/>

They had a special deal for $99 when I got it, but that was very limited and
they haven't done it since. Still I'd say if you hold out for a year that
price will be halved. I generally recommend people to wait unless they're
really interested in these things. The industry is still in its infancy. Cost
is going down quickly and quality is going up just as fast.

~~~
DavidSJ
Ah, interesting. It's not a full genome sequence, just a sequence of
strategically important loci, I see.

~~~
hotpockets
Yes, you get about 570,000 single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs).

~~~
c1sc0
And as far as I know, the value of SNPs is debatable at best.

------
jawngee
I take provigil, or I should say I have a prescription for it.

I typically only take it:

a) Have to write a lot of boring code that has already been mapped out, ie I'm
not solving any ridiculous problems that require imagination and/or being
clever.

b) Learning a new technology I'm not entirely interested in.

c) Learning Japanese

d) Playing poker. I'm a little iffy on this one though. Without Provigil I can
play a good 12 hour session no sweat. I have a really shitty short term memory
so most of my game consists of the social aspects and the math aspects and
reading people, which I'm very good at. I have a general impression of how
people play, but I couldn't tell you about a hand I played 30 minutes ago or
what anybody did in the hand exactly. On Provigil, however, the game becomes
absolutely crystal clear and I can tell you what hand you played 4 hours ago
or 4 minutes ago in striking clarity. Really creative playing goes out the
window though and I become a very ABC player with the advantage of total
recall. I've never had a losing session on Provigil, but I've also never 4x or
5x buyin session on it either (making 4x or 5x my initial buyin) which is
probably due to the fact that I play smaller pots because I'm not taking as
many risks.

I can stop taking it for months, go on a "binge" and then stop taking it
again. It's a lot like marijuana in that regard. I've never mixed the too,
btw.

~~~
seldo
What is the prescription for, if I may ask? You told your doctor you were
having trouble concentrating?

~~~
jawngee
I have/had anxiety disorder, so I used to take a klonopin every morning when I
woke up which causes me to be drowsy all day long. I rarely take klonopin
these days though, and haven't had a major panic attack in several years.

I also went through some intense burn out when I was at a former job (17 hour
days, 7 days a week), so I had a hard time concentrating at my new job.

There is also a family history of narcolepsy. My dad was famous for falling
asleep while chewing food.

------
jawngee
One thing to note, Provigil has a very nasty side effect called Stevens-
Johnson Syndrome.

It is pretty rare, but f*ck all if I'd ever want to get it:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevens–Johnson_syndrome>

~~~
adg
Yet another Wikipedia article with graphic pictures that I agree should be
there, but are not something I want to see while eating my morning bowl of
cereal...

~~~
schammy
Heh... agreed.

------
proee
The author should do a placebo test on himself. Find an identical looking
sugar pill and put them in one of those small film canisters - one pill per
canister. On the bottom of the canister write if its real or placebo. Wake up
and grab a canister out of a hat at random. Down the pill with a glass of
wanter and begin your day. After the next day (or number of days) go back and
determine if you were on the drug or not.

~~~
CamperBob
Trouble is, modafinil's metabolites include at least one, um, "aromatic"
sulfur compound that is excreted in the urine. If you want to run a single-
blind test, you'll need to hold your nose while you pee.

~~~
nooneelse
Couldn't the sugar pill be dosed with something to reproduce that effect?

------
Groxx
> _I paced and agonised and finally concluded that taking narcolepsy drugs
> when you don’t have narcolepsy is just stupid._

While I don't disagree with the overall choice here, I must point out: _WHAT?_
And _how_ many drugs have found alternative, sometimes better uses than the
ones they were originally advertised for? This includes drugs re-branded,
minor non-functional changes to avoid copyright / patent laws of another
company, and damn near every plant-originated drug in existence.

Drugs have side effects, and sometimes different ones when used to treat non-
existant symptoms (like this situation), but that has nothing to do with
marketing.

------
metastew
I'm thinking of asking my doctor to put me on Provigil because I have Shift
Work Disorder due to the nature of my jobs (one in the early morning, one at
late night).

Also, I followed the link at the bottom of the article, which stated that the
possible tax of using Provigil is the loss of creative thoughts (or
distractions). I may be the only one who thinks this, but I think that's also
an upside. I consider myself a very creative person but I rarely commit any of
my ideas into reality, so I perceive 99% of them as distraction and harmful to
my focus.

Now if I'm reading this right, Provigil supresses the distractions in the
brain, which allows you to the ability to clear up the backlog of creative
ideas you've thought up (I assume this because Hari says that in an evening,
he read a book cover to cover and finished an article he's been mulling over
in the last couple of months.)

I don't know if Provigil permanently stifles your chances to have creative
thoughts after you stop taking it though, but it would be nice to be
uncreative for a while and just get down to the dull grunt works and actually
produce results.

Just my two cents.

~~~
goodside
I'm usually a fan of Jonah Lehrer's writing, but his reasoning on this point
just doesn't follow. He writes:

"However, the same thoughts that can be such annoying interruptions are also
the engine of creativity, since they allow us to come up with new connections
between previously unrelated ideas. (This might be why schizotypal subjects
score higher on tests of creativity. They are less able to ignore those
distracting thoughts, which largely arise from the right hemisphere.)"

This is a testable hypothesis: Give low doses of amphetamines to
schizophrenics and see if they get better or worse. This has been done, and
they clearly get worse. In fact, you can induce schizophrenic symptoms (that
is, psychosis) in normal healthy adults by giving them sufficient amounts of
amphetamines. Furthermore, the effect of amphetamines is known to be reduced,
if not eliminated, by simultaneously administering dopamine antagonists, which
are typically used for the treatment of schizophrenia. All of this adds up to
amphetamines being promoters of creativity (whatever it means, so long as it's
something associated with schizophrenia) rather than inhibitors.

------
barrkel
I've tried it, but it doesn't substantially affect me. Mainly, I don't get
sleepy as soon, and I sleep worse. Then I crash for the next couple of days,
feeling a bit like I had a glass of wine the previous night (I don't drink
often), and sleeping sooner and longer than normal. Overall, a definite net
negative to performance, except with a deadline looming and you can afford the
down time on the other side.

Like very strong coffee that gives you a mild hangover but no jitters etc.

------
adbge
I took 250mg of Provigil daily for almost a year and it's nothing like what
this Johann fellow describes it as. You cannot get an accurate "feel" for
Provigil over one week.

I've taken a lot of drugs. Dozens. If you're looking for "brain viagra", it's
not Provigil. Amphetamines are much more effective for that kind of thing.
Provigil is good at keeping you awake and preventing you from "winding down".
It does not improve concentration beyond that point, in my experience, and it
seriously impairs creativity.

Honestly, you're better off just drinking a coffee.

------
stretchwithme
Inability to focus is worth treating, but why not look at potential causes
instead of potentially risky substances that cover up the problem?

Too much sugar in the diet, persistent muscular tension and the stress
hormones it produces, and lack of sleep are all problems that impact our
ability to think clearly.

~~~
rdtsc
> Inability to focus is worth treating, but why not look at potential causes
> instead of potentially risky substances that cover up the problem?

Because we grew up in a culture where doctors fix problems with a pill. Too
depressed ? - Take Prozac. Can't have sex ? Take Viagra. Can't fall asleep ?
Talk to you doctor about Lunesta.

Now it's "can't think", so sure there is a quick fix -- Provigil. Some HN-ers
already ordered it, according to their comments on this post. Perhaps, they'll
get further ahead of the pack using it. Perhaps their startups will launch
faster. Or perhaps they'll suffer from long-term effects of the drug that
nobody has studied yet. Who knows...?

I certainly don't want to gamble with my brain. I'd rather accept my
mediocrity, struggle with lack of attention, anxiety and other issues, than
suffer possible long-term side-effects later.

~~~
kurtosis
Yeah but what about the long term side effects of "lack of attention, anxiety
and other issues", which aren't just possible, but probable!

------
mmaunder
The most valuable data in this discussion is how interested we are in
improving our intelligence and our ability to apply it.

------
DanielBMarkham
I am currently taking provigil (the drug in the article) because I have a
sleep disorder. Not just insomnia or some bullshit like that, but a serious
medical condition. During the consultation with my doctor we decided on using
the drug, partly because I had heard about it here and then ran across it
again when researching my condition. It seemed like it could both help my
medical problem and also more directly help me in my job performance, so it
was a double-win.

After 60 days, off and on (I discontinued use at random intervals to make sure
I wasn't becoming a junkie), I have a mixed bag to report. On the good side,
there is no doubt in my mind that for folks who have sleep problems or are
ADHD that this is a really good thing. It improves both focus and creativity,
it allows you to be more in control of what you are doing. Best of all, it's
not speed.

For regular people? I don't know if I would mess around with my brain
chemistry so much if I didn't have to. I found the drug to be so effective --
and with a very slight worrying hint of euphoria attached to it -- that it
really continues to bother me about addiction and side effects. There is no
such thing as a free lunch.

Which brings me to the bad part. After several weeks of stopping and starting,
I found the stop-go process was introducing terrible nausea and headaches. So
a couple of weeks ago we sat down and decided that it's either all-in or
nothing-in. Since the difference with the drug was noticeable and needed, I am
taking it continuously for a month or so and then we'll re-evaluate.

There _is_ a bounce-back with provigil. You stop taking it after prolonged
use? Be prepared to spend a few days under-stimulated and in a fog while your
brain chemistry re-adjusts. If I didn't need the drug for other reasons, and
if I were of a mind to take brain-enhancers, this bounce-back alone would be
enough to give me serious pause. My advice for a 20-something is to learn to
exercise everyday and control what you eat -- I know from experience that a
normal person can gain this same effect through hard work.

Couple of notes. First, if you buy this drug in the states be prepared to get
screwed by Big Pharma. They charge something like 15 bucks for a pill, simply
because they know lots of knowledge-workers can afford it (in my opinion). Buy
overseas and the price drops to a couple of bucks. The markup here is crazy
high.

Second, as noted, there is a mood-elevation effect with provigil. Not a
peaking/tweaking/euphoria kind of thing, but a long-term I'm-happier-now-in-
general kind of thing. If you're older than 25 or so, you might experience a
slow, growing bit of low-level depression that occurs very slowly over many
years. I know many of my friends have. I never thought I did. But after taking
provigil for a couple of weeks, I realize that my mind is performing now in
the same way it used to, many years ago. I guess the change is so slow over
the years that it is unnoticeable for some? So it makes for a great A/B test
of where your mood is.

Also, I _suspect_ that provigil is the best adult ADHD drug on the market
today for knowledge workers, hence all the interest. But it's not been tested
in this role, so you're just on your own. Not a good spot for somebody with
serious ADHD to be in, but there it is. (and that's just my guess, like I know
anything)

------
markbao
Previous discussion on HN: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=190676>

More about Provigil and other nootropics from my personal experience in
researching about them: _modafinil_ (the non-marketing name for it) is under
Schedule IV in the US and is prescription-only. However, there is an
unscheduled drug called _adrafinil_ (marketing name Olmifon), which directly
metabolizes into modafinil (though it does take longer and has a higher risk
for liver damage.) It is also considerably less expensive (though you have to
take a multiple of a dose to receive a similar effect.) Here are some reports
from individuals that have used it from Erowid's Experience Vaults, including
those who compare it to modafinil.
<http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Adrafinil.shtml>

Adrafinil isn't readily available in stores in the US, but is available by
mail order by vendors such as QHI and the like. You can also get modafinil
this way as this guy did, but it runs the risk of getting caught at customs,
so I can't suggest it.

As for other nootropics, some people have gotten results form the racetam
class of drugs (which include, in rough order of intensity, piracetam,
oxiracetam, aniracetam, pramiracetam, and others) that some users have
reported benefits from and that have extremely few reports of side effects,
even with high doses. Some side effects include headaches from (primarily)
piracetam (aka Nootropil), which is usually solved by taking it with choline.
Some sellers sell gelatin tablets with piracetam and choline. Piracetam and
all of the other racetams are relatively inexpensive and obtainable without a
prescription, i.e. it is unscheduled. However, the general consensus is that
the effects are rather subtle and the tolerance builds up quickly, though some
people have experienced significant gains from it.

There are always, of course, drugs like Adderall and Ritalin which are under
prescription that also have various side effects but are effective for an
enormous amount of those who require it. There are also other OTC products
like vinpoectine, which is a vasodilator which is an ingredient in some mind
supplements such as Think Gum and others.

There are a lot of nootropics and it's fascinating to read and learn about
them and their mechanisms of action.

EDIT: here are some more interesting things you might want to read. PubMed has
a long document about modafinil, precautions, guidelines, and its side effects
[1]. Quora also has some information (some first-hand experiences as well)
[2].

[1] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000196>

[2] <http://www.quora.com/Nootropics> | <http://www.quora.com/Modafinil> |
<http://www.quora.com/Productivity-Drugs>

~~~
Alex3917
"Drugs like Adderall and Ritalin which are under prescription that also have
various side effects but are effective for an enormous amount of those who
require it."

At least in the short term. The long term picture seems to be less positive:

"Medication use was a significant marker not of beneficial outcome, but of
deterioration. That is, participants using medication in the 24-to-36 month
period actually showed increased symptomatology during that interval relative
to those not taking medication." In addition, those on stimulants had higher
"delinquency scores, and they were also now shorter and weighed less than
their non-medicated counterparts.

At the end of six years, the results were the same. Continued medication use
was "associated with worse hyperactivity-impulsivity and oppositional defiant
disorders symptoms," and with greater "overall functional impairment."

source:
[http://www.madinamerica.com/madinamerica.com/Home/AB86250A-A...](http://www.madinamerica.com/madinamerica.com/Home/AB86250A-AE47-4FDC-B9DA-024F2F802BC4.html)

~~~
commandar
I can't speak for your source, but as somehow that was on adderall through
much of my middle and high school life I can speak from experience.
Amphetamines do a great job in the short term, but most people do find that
after a couple of years the benefits recede and the side effects kick up in
intensity.

I finally had to go off adderall while I was in college because I got to a
point where I was only sleeping a couple of hours a night and I was having
mood swings that resembled manic depression. It sucks because I'm certainly
not as productive as I was back then, but I'm generally a much happier person
all the same.

~~~
Mz
I have two ASD kids and a serious medical condition. I took a lot of
medication for a few years and ultimately concluded that the drug side effects
were more impairing than my illness. I've worked extremely hard to get off the
drugs. I resisted suggestions to put my oldest on Ritalin (by a teacher, who
apparently just didn't want to deal with my highly energetic, inquisitive kid
and wasn't qualified to diagnose anything).

Stuff I have seen suggests that nutritional supplements generally work better
and without the drug side effects. Having gotten off of a bunch of medication,
I have found that my need for nutritional supplements has gone down. It is
well documented that some drugs cause deficiencies of specific nutrients. I
sort of suspect that part of the way these drugs get the initial positive
impact is by squeezing the body for use of these nutrients, thereby giving a
short-term boost but, in the long term, using them up and resulting in worse
problems. If that suspicion is at all accurate, finding the right nutritional
supplements should be generally more effective -- and, in fact, for me and my
sons, that has proven to be true. (Deeper still is finding the roots of such
issues and addressing those, but probably not really within the scope of this
discussion. :-))

------
metamemetics
Reposting here since this one is more popular.

My ranking in order of both effectiveness and least physical-harm\withdrawal
for stimulants:

2,5-dimethoxy-4-iodophenethylamine > Desoxypipradrol > Modafinil\Provigil >
Adderall

For me, Adderall and to a lesser extent provigil are better for repetitive
motor tasks like cleaning an apartment but inhibit creativity.

------
teoruiz
Does anybody know whre to get Provigil (or modafinil, for that matter)
anywhere online that ships to Europe?

------
fmora
I cannot believe that anybody would recommend a drug to be able to stay awake
longer or work longer (with the exception of coffee). Any drug that is able to
do this to your body will probably decrease your health drastically. If you
really do have to work a lot the best way that I have found is to sleep 8
hours and work 16 hours. Unfortunately shower time will probably suffer so use
plenty of deodorant. You will also be eating junk food for a couple of weeks
but believe me, it is a much better alternative than using drugs. A cup of
coffee would be the strongest drug I would use but that is it. Taking drugs
like the ones mentioned is an extremely bad idea. You can end up being
addicted to them.

~~~
gwern
>Any drug that is able to do this to your body will probably decrease your
health drastically. ... Taking drugs like the ones mentioned is an extremely
bad idea. You can end up being addicted to them.

Modafinil has been in use for something like 30 years now, and has been taken
on and off prescription by millions. Thus far, there are no reports of
addiction, and just the usual rare nasty side-effects (which seems to be true
of pretty much every drug in existence, and modafinil is better than most in
having a really huge LD-50).

If you are going to scaremonger, then provide some studies.

~~~
fmora
Is common sense that if you drive a machine harder than its specifications
then it will break a lot sooner. Why don't you drive your car at its maximum
revolutions per second often enough and notice how fast it breaks down. Even
too much caffeine is bad for you. Although comparatively speaking is a much
reduced risk. Also, many of these drugs take years for the effects to show up.
Just because you are able to use it for months or years does not mean that it
is not damaging to you.

~~~
gwern
> Is common sense that if you drive a machine harder than its specifications
> then it will break a lot sooner.

It is also common sense that if you do something, and you do it a lot over a
long time with a lot of people, and you don't see anything bad happening,
nothing bad is probably going to happen!

Which is better, a universal weak probabilistic statement made in ignorance of
specifics, or a narrow statement about one thing based on specific evidence?

> Also, many of these drugs take years for the effects to show up.

Again, provide numbers. I will grant that 'some' - as in, a non-zero number -
drugs have long-term side-effects. However, I dispute 'many', or 'most'. There
are many thousands of drugs which the FDA has approved, most of which do not
turn up with horrible thalidomide-like long-term side-effects.

~~~
fmora
The same way that a lot of people used to swear that there was nothing bad
happening to long term smokers?

~~~
gwern
Why do you think modafinil is equivalent to tobacco?

------
nicpottier
I've used Provigil a few times, mostly when there has been some fantastic
deadline and I know I need to be working long hours and remain focused.

For that, at least for me, it works wonders. I can work 16 hours and just be
insanely productive, my ability to focus and work through problems at least
feels way better. It could be all placebo, pretty impossible to judge that,
but whatever causes it makes me write a lot of (generally good) code very
quickly.

That said, it scares me a bit, mostly because I worry about getting addicted
psychologically to that focus. So I use it very rarely, basically only when
absolutely necessary. Maybe two or three times a year.

But a fun thing to experience for the geek in you.

------
ww520
Ahem, I notice most people here wrote lots of text for their posts. Is that
the effect of Provigil?

------
throwaway25
I'm on 200mg of Modafinil right now, so let's see how it affects my ability to
contribute to a HN post. This is obviously a throwaway account, since I'd
prefer not to be terribly public about using it (although I'd be more than
happy to talk about it in person). Note that I'm not really the best writer in
the world normally, and you'll probably find that this writing is similar -
despite being "boosted" with "mind-enhancing" medication.

Some highlights: I've been taking it off and on for almost 2 years now. The
first stint was for a length of about 3 months back in 2008/2009. When I first
started taking it I was affected so dramatically I routinely paused using it
to make sure it wasn't something I was going to become dependent on, or would
have a noticeable cumulative damaging effect upon discontinuation of use. I'm
the founder of a technology startup (which I won't name so don't ask) and so I
was immediately intrigued by the possibilities when I read about the drug. At
that time I had just started on a massive code rewrite project that had to be
done as soon as possible (since every day this project wasn't finished we were
losing potential revenue). One of the other members of the team estimated the
project would take around 3 months, and we couldn't avoid doing it. I was able
to finish the project in 1 month. However, I should admit that I had a lot of
things going for me besides the medicine - it was a new code base and a new
language that I had wanted to learn, so that combined with the urgency and
reward of increased revenue was a huge motivator. I will say that the focus
that the drug gave me was probably a significant factor in getting it
completed as fast as I did. I'll explain why I think it's a perfect compliment
for this kind of project by talking about all of the "features" of the drug
below. Other notable effects of my use which I will expand on include loss of
about 15-20lbs (205-185/190), a much improved social life, enhanced/stabilized
mood, and the ability to be alert and awake and mostly functional at any
conceivable time of day or night, regardless of the amount of sleep achieved
in the previous day. This is not to say there aren't any downsides of
tradeoffs, there definitely are - it just turns out that for me, I find that
the benefits so far outweigh the consequences.

This comment was too long, so I continued this here: <http://throw-
nhnzo.posterous.com/>

------
donaldc
_It seems to work by restricting the parts of your brain that make you
sluggish or sleepy._

Since good sleep is needed to solidify learning for the long term, I
personally will be unlikely to ever try provigil, at least not for more than a
couple-day sprint. Getting a good sleep when my brain is full is an investment
in long-term productivity (better retention of learning) over short-term
productivity.

~~~
mst
Oddly enough, I found I had next to no effects from the stuff except that I
could pull an all nighter via too much caffeine, sleep six hours, and wake up
feeling like I'd not skipped a night's sleep.

Should probably get some more sometime and do a more disciplined test though.

------
whalesalad
Just ordered some online. We'll see how this goes.

~~~
ashot
where?

~~~
icey
I've ordered adrafinil through <http://www.antiaging-systems.com/> and had
good success. They sell modafinil as well, but I didn't like adrafinil so I
never bothered.

~~~
aspiringsensei
Can you possibly link modafinil? I tried looking around the site and couldn't
find it through the product list. Perhaps I am navigating wrong, as is common.

Also, what didn't you like about adrafinil?

~~~
icey
Ah that sucks, it looks like they've stopped selling it. I'm sorry for the bad
link.

Adrafinil helped my focus but totally destroyed my sense of humor. Nothing
seemed funny at all and I missed a bunch of subtle jokes. It was kind of like
medically induced Aspergers for me.

------
gwern
> It was originally designed for narcoleptics in the seventies, but clinical
> trials had stumbled across something odd: if you give it to non-
> narcoleptics, they just become smarter. Their memory and concentration
> improves considerably, and so does their IQ.

Wikipedia links these studies in its modafinil entry; it's worth noting that
'considerably' is something of an exaggeration. The boost is perhaps on par
with piracetam, which is to say, noticeable & measurable but not massive.

------
hippich
Not sure if it's valuable for anyone. At some point I tried Modapro - generic,
containing modafinil - same stuff in Provigil.

I do not have any sleep disorders, so it was pure experiment about getting
more productive/etc.

In short - it didn't worked for me at all. I tried it in different dozes,
different conditions - same no effect.

There is two possible reasons for this: 1) This modapro is fake 2) Modafinil
affect only people with some sort of sleep disorders.

------
jsean
Regarding creativity; It'd be interesting to see what happens when one mixes
Provigil (+focus, -creativity) with something that boosts creativity.
Marijuana for instance (-focus, +creativity)?

------
nhnifong
What we have is a vocabulary of mental qualities (intelligence, creativity,
stubbornness, etc..) and a collection of mind-altering drugs. And there is no
one-to-one mapping between these sets.

------
nhnifong
I think additional intelligence only makes moral dilemmas (Should I or should
I not do X) harder to cope with. So the drug that makes you smarter also makes
you less sure you should take it.

~~~
barrkel
But if you're intelligent, you can see the obviousness of getting caught up in
moral dilemmas, and you can counter that by adopting a moral system - e.g.
utilitarianism, deontological ethics, etc. - and evaluating the action
thereunder.

But I don't think there's much of a moral dilemma in using drugs that don't
usually have permanent or damaging effects. And even when they're damaging or
permanent, you need to differentiate between self-harm and harm to others, how
well informed the person is, the degree of dependency introduced, the
soundness of mind and understanding of consequences, etc.

And then you need to look at second-order effects of these moral choices. For
example, even though heroin is generally agreed to be a bad thing,
particularly with addictive dependency and the need to feed the habit, that
doesn't necessarily mean it should e.g. be made illegal to take, as that
criminalizes the victims who don't have the same degree of independent control
over their actions.

Much of drug policy in many democratic countries is driven by short-term
political dynamics spurred by parental hysteria, often based on just a handful
of well-publicized misadventures. Some kid dies doing something stupid, or is
unlucky; people say something must be done; so we send in men with guns and
throw people in prison by the thousands, but likely not actually saving many
people's lives - very probably a net negative in terms of lives ruined.

Very important consequence to keep in mind: when you make something illegal,
it means you want to send in men with guns to break into people's homes, split
up families and ruin lives. It's a very heavy-handed and blunt tool, and it's
ill suited to dealing with consensual crimes.

~~~
rdtsc
> But I don't think there's much of a moral dilemma in using drugs that don't
> usually have permanent or damaging effects.

I think in this particular case there are no long-term (20 years+) studies. It
is still unclear how exactly Modafinil works. And no long term studies have
been done _.

_ This is according to : "Pharmacotherapy for excessive daytime sleepiness" by
Banerjee D, Vitiello MV, Grunstein RR. Published in Sleep Med Rev. 2004
Oct;8(5):339-54). (See last sentence in the abstract).

PUBMED: <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15336235>

~~~
barrkel
For sure; but it's not exactly a new drug, and the probability that a long-
term problem exists decreases over the lifetime of the drug's active use.

But this still doesn't point to a _moral_ problem; it is a lack of
information, or conversely, an element of risk. Can the risk be quantified,
compared, and put in perspective with the other risks we take in our daily
lives?

------
nivertech
You can overclock your CPU, but it will last far less, than non-overclocked
one (a one third?) If you want your brain to last only 3o years instead of 90
- then take the drugs ;)

~~~
patrickk
You can simply buy a new, better CPU for less money after a few years if
something goes wrong (Moore's Law), and from what I've read from those who do
overclock their CPU...quote:

.... _"I'm being particularly doomsday here to emphasize that things could go
wrong. If done correctly, overclocking is generally a pretty safe endeavor
(I've never damaged my gear), but if you're not willing to risk damaging your
processor, you may want to skip it."_ from
[http://lifehacker.com/5580998/a-beginners-guide-to-
overclock...](http://lifehacker.com/5580998/a-beginners-guide-to-overclocking-
your-intel-processor)

So your comment is both incorrect and misleading. Also, who is to say that
"using drugs" will reduce the lifespan of your brain by two-thirds? When you
drink coffee (caffeine), tea (tannin), alcohol, Panadol (paracetamol) you're
not thinking "oops my brain is slowly dying". Just because something is
prescription-only (or illegal), doesn't necessarily mean it's any safer or
more dangerous than over the counter drugs. Examples: Coca-cola once contained
cocaine as a 'pick-me-up' before cocaine was outlawed, and George Washington
once grew marijuana on his estate
([http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/thepresidentandcabinet/a/gwthe...](http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/thepresidentandcabinet/a/gwtheman.htm))

~~~
nivertech
Good luck buying a new brain ;)

Brain transplants is the area of Sci-Fi for now. Coffee at least preventing
liver cancer and some other diseases. Check why Sergey Brin drinks coffee
every day, even if he hates it.

I don't drink Coca-Cola because I don't like it's taste. But coffee is like
blood in my veins. I work in bursts and prefer this way. Better bursts, that
work fulltime but slowly.

~~~
patrickk
I wasn't implying that you can buy a new brain, that was the point of me
saying you can buy a new CPU - i.e. it doesn't matter if you overclock your
CPU and wreck it because you can replace it easily.

------
cwilson
Can anyone comment on how Provigil has effected a relationship? Are you so
focused on work you ignore your significant other? Does your sex drive go
away? Does it increase?

------
BrandonM
So really, what's the difference between this and, say, cocaine? The effects
seem pretty similar to me.

------
MrSafe
How does he get Provigil without a prescription? Shouldn't he see a doctor or
something first?

~~~
zyb09
You'd be surprised what kind of things you can order on the internet.

~~~
axod
You'd be surprised at what sort of crap they put in things idiots order on the
internet.

------
pclark
Where can i buy this from the uk?

------
clistctrl
While reading the description of him on the pill I couldn't help but realize
that It seemed very much like my own behavior . I've always been an extremely
finicky eater where one persons half (or sometimes less) portion would be more
then enough for me. I can think back to multiple nights where I'd get the
picture of a system in my head. I could sit down, and code all night. The next
morning I'd wake up feeling great, and my apartment would be sparkling clean
(I had this habit of roaming the place cleaning while I considered the best
ways to write a component) Anyways that was before I turned 21. After I turned
21 I started to slow down, where as I used to get into that "zone" some times
4 times a week, i'm lucky to get it once a month. I always seem to walk around
feeling as if my head is filled with air, but yet still feels like an extra
50lbs. In addition I also gained 20lbs, my appetite changed dramatically. I
went from easting only because I have to, to becoming obsessed with it. There
is some good news though, I recently started to drastically reduce my beer
consumption at the beginning of July. The last 2 days I have enjoyed 2 very
productive days, I have also lost about 10lbs, and I'm almost back to my old
low appetite self.

On the note related to the thread below, my rs4680 is AA.

~~~
eru
Have you tried doing some exercise? I heard that it may also have positive
effects on mood. Any experience?

