
Ph.D. recipients in computing fields are primarily non-US residents in the US - ra7
http://cra.org/crn/2015/10/ph-d-recipients-in-computing-fields-are-primarily-non-u-s-residents-in-most-states-in-the-u-s/?utm_source=Computing+Research+News&utm_campaign=6c070b446d-October_2015_CRN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_26c4052606-6c070b446d-40722449
======
crayg33k
The comments in this discussion that talk about how foreign nationals look at
a PhD as a short-cut to getting permanent residency infuriates me.

I have a CS PhD from a reputable mid-west school. I am also not a US citizen.
When a person is considering investing 5-7 years of his/her life into a PhD
program, I am quite certain the US immigration policy is not a motivating
factor by any measure. You can apply for permanent residency under the EB-2
quota even with a Masters. The EB-1 quota is for "outstanding researchers"
with truly exceptional skills, and who have made significant impact in their
field of research. All the non-American PhD students I have met in my life
(and I have met a LOT of them) have a real drive to innovate and be someone in
their field of research. Sure, higher salaries (if they decide to enter the
industry, as opposed to academia) are a strong motivation to some of them, but
I doubt if permanent residency is.

~~~
geebee
I agree that it's possible to overstate the influence of immigration policy
but I really don't agree that it is "not a motivating factor by any measure".
When I was in grad school at Berkeley (didn't finish, dropped out with an MS),
many international students were quite open about the benefits of a grad
degree in gaining US residency, and expressed irritation that other fields
weren't as open as STEM.

These are just our anecdotes, but there is some data to support this.

Take a look at this study from the RAND institute (historically a very pro-
immigrant think tank) that compares STEM PhD programs to other options
available to highly educated people _with choice_ and concludes that the
decision to avoid STEM graduate programs (PhD in particular) is a rational
response to market conditions relative to the professions.

[http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html](http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html)

A more general audience report on this research:

[http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/2009-07-08-scien...](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/2009-07-08-science-
engineer-jobs_N.htm)

Here's the thing - those "professions" are much more closed off to
international students than STEM graduate programs. This absolutely influences
choice!

It's pretty clear that some fields and paths to graduate study in the US are
far more open to non-citizens than others, and that visa programs targeting
STEM fields do provide an extra incentive for non-citizens to go into STEM
graduate programs rather than other study paths. This doesn't make it the only
reason, or the main motivation, but I'd say it is a motivating factor to go to
grad school.

I tend to agree with you that once the MS is achieved, the motivation would be
lower, but it still influences the field of study.

~~~
shas3
> It's pretty clear that some fields and paths to graduate study in the US are
> far more open to non-citizens than others, and that visa programs targeting
> STEM fields do provide an extra incentive for non-citizens to go into STEM
> graduate programs rather than other study paths. This doesn't make it the
> only reason, or the main motivation, but I'd say it is a motivating factor
> to go to grad school.

What? This is the weirdest reason I've seen about why foreigners do STEM. Are
you suggesting that it is because it is easier for them to get visas in
STEM?!?

You are clearly ignorant of the gaping difference between STEM and non-STEM
education in India and China. There are too many good STEM schools and too few
non-STEM programs in these two countries for there to be any other reason for
people doing STEM in US grad schools.

I continue to be surprised by the casual anti-immigrant bigotry on HN. Stating
that they choose STEM because it is easier to get visas sure is an unfair
stereotyping and second guessing of someone's motives based on their
ethnicity.

~~~
lucozade
You appear to be assuming either all non-US grad students are from China and
India or that geebee was only writing about them. I see no reason to believe
either is true.

I read geebee's comment to mean that it is possible that citizenship may be a
factor. I happens to know someone, from Europe, who attended grad school in
the US who also wanted to get his green card.

On that basis is it not conceivable that geebee may have a point?

~~~
shas3
India, China, and South Korea (all countries with heavy STEM emphasis)
together make up close to half of all foreign students in the US [1]. At just
the graduate level, India and China contribute ~70% of all science and
engineering students [2]. It would be disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

[1] [http://www.iie.org/Services/Project-Atlas/United-
States/Inte...](http://www.iie.org/Services/Project-Atlas/United-
States/International-Students-In-US) [2]
[http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind12/pdf/c02.pdf](http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind12/pdf/c02.pdf)

------
brightball
This is because of the field itself more than any other policies. I have an
undergrad degree in Computer Information Systems. That was VERY appealing when
I knew nothing about programming, the field, etc.

After having been in the field for 15 years, there are a few things that
become very clear:

1\. I did not need an undergraduate degree to do this. Some fields you need
formal education in a controlled setting. This isn't one of them.

2\. There is virtually nothing in this field that I feel I couldn't learn
given books and free time

3\. I am married with 2 kids and a good job. To pursue a PhD I've got to
either put my job and my income on hold to go pursue it (while taking on the
expense) OR pursue it in my spare time and encroach on my children's
childhood. Neither are worth it.

4\. Virtually nothing to gain FROM the PhD

I also have a Master's but I got that in a business field instead, which is
tremendously harder to just get from books. Experience and connections in
business are huge and that degree was worth every penny.

At this point, if I went back to school for anything it would probably be Law,
Statistics or Finance. There's just nothing in the field of computing that I
believe couldn't be better learned by experience.

~~~
yid
> There's just nothing in the field of computing that I believe couldn't be
> better learned by experience.

The rest of your post makes sense, but you lost me at this sentiment. There is
a lot more to computing that information systems and programming. I'm glad
your career worked out, but there is certainly much in CS that you will simply
never learn in the field.

~~~
outworlder
My thoughts exactly.

The worst part is: you don't even know what you are missing in the first
place.

Since we are all into anecdotes today, let me give you mine:

My co-founder once called me with some aggravation, because he was developing
a feature for a client that needed, in a nutsheel, to figure out which points,
out of a few million, were inside some arbitrary geographical boundaries.

His naive algorithm was taking minutes to process all the data, but the
requirement was for real-time(ish).

Turns out I didn't even get to apply the space partitioning techniques that I
learned in class. Just explaining to him the concept of pre-calculating
bounding boxes was more than enough for him to implement a solution in less
than an hour.

Since he had not even heard of them, he didn't know what to look for, or that
there was an entire class of algorithms and data structures in computer
graphics dedicated to that sort of problem.

Don't even get me started with things like dynamic programming, or
mathematical logic. Are you seriously going to study something like that for
months, if there's no-one pushing you?

~~~
icebraining
That's a lack of higher education... or of Google-fu:
[https://www.google.com/search?q=algorithm+find+points+inside...](https://www.google.com/search?q=algorithm+find+points+inside+geographic+area)

------
spacehome
This is primarily a problem with immigration policies and bureaucracy that
make it difficult to remain in the U.S. after graduation. Rather, the U.S.
should be actively recruiting such high skill people and trying to handhold
them through the paperwork.

I went through this process with my wife (who also holds a Ph. D. in a
technical field, though non-computing), and even being married to a U.S.
citizen, the process is so opaque and convoluted and petty, that only the most
dedicated would-be immigrants follow through with it.

~~~
johnward
I work with some very capable foreigners. Some of them have been here for
almost 10 years and still haven't gotten through the citizenship process.
There is something wrong with that.

~~~
djb_hackernews
> There is something wrong with that.

To your employer the system is working as designed.

~~~
johnward
What is the benefit? When I look h1b salaries they seem higher than normal but
do they no include benefits or something?

~~~
djb_hackernews
I couldn't really say anything about the H1B program that hasn't already been
said (you can see my post history as I've posted about it a few times myself)

Basically the way the program is run gives a lot of power to employers and
very little power to employees.

In terms of salaries there are a few tricks employers use to suppress wages.
Wages are set* by the department of labor but the data is very inconsistent
which means you can hire someone as a level 4 software engineer with a market
salary of 130k or you can hire her as a level 1 systems analyst at 65k...
which do you think the employer picks? A big problem besides the nebulousness
of it all is there isn't anyone responsible on the other side to verify.

* actually employers can submit their own wage data to support the wages given, which is just insane.

------
marme
This is a major reason for reform of the visa system. If you get a US PhD you
should be guaranteed a US visa. Studying a STEM PhD is free and mostly paid
for by public grants aka tax dollars. If you force these people to leave you
are using tax dollars to train them to go back and contribute to another
country's economy. Instead they should be heavily incentivized to stay in the
US and grow the US economy since we already wasted time training them.

For years China and India have been suffering brain drain to the US with their
best researchers and engineers coming to the US but at least in china there
has been a shift with more and more Chinese PhD grads choosing to go back most
of which is because it is just too hard to stay in the US. They go back and
work for upcoming tech giants like alibaba and other companies that are
competing with US companies. So US companies are facing more competition from
companies whose workers are trained in the US with grant money from US tax
payers

------
chrisbennet
Isn't one of the drivers of this something to do with it being a path to work
in the US after they (non-resident) get a degree?

I could be wrong, but I don't think a PhD is as attractive to people who are
already residents. (Generally poor ROI, lack of job prospects, etc.)

~~~
coherentpony
> Isn't one of the drivers of this something to do with it being a path to
> work in the US after they (non-resident) get a degree?

This applies to undergraduate degrees, too. Therefore the argument that
restricts it to Ph.D degrees is moot.

Furthermore, the 'path to work' is temporary. You still need a a work visa to
work once your OPT has expired.

~~~
wtetzner
>> Isn't one of the drivers of this something to do with it being a path to
work in the US after they (non-resident) get a degree?

>This applies to undergraduate degrees, too. Therefore the argument that
restricts it to Ph.D degrees is moot.

You seem to have ignored his second point. Yes, it applies to undergraduate
degrees, but undergraduate degrees are attractive to residents as well. An
undergraduate degree is helpful for getting a good job, whereas a Ph.D doesn't
doesn't do much in that regard.

~~~
coherentpony
> You seem to have ignored his second point. Yes, it applies to undergraduate
> degrees, but undergraduate degrees are attractive to residents as well. An
> undergraduate degree is helpful for getting a good job, whereas a Ph.D
> doesn't doesn't do much in that regard.

That's a fair point but I'm not sure the conclusion is necessarily the right
one. The US has some of the best universities in the world. It makes sense, if
they're unattractive for residents in terms of job prospects, for most of the
clientele to be foreign nationals. My point was that it's essentially no
easier to get a job (not on OPT) in the US because you were a student in the
us. H-1B applicants go through the same process either way, the only
difference being that applicants on OPT are already in the country which, I
reiterate, doesn't really make the H-1B application any easier.

------
wang_li
When you start enrolling more foreign students, is it a surprise when more of
your graduates are foreign students?

During the recession colleges and universities focused on non-resident student
enrollment as a way to sustain budgets.

[http://www.bing.com/search?q=ratio+of+foreign+to+native+in+c...](http://www.bing.com/search?q=ratio+of+foreign+to+native+in+college)

~~~
sackofmugs
You're talking about undergrads. PhD foreign students are paid by the
university, not payers into budgets. So it's actually the opposite effect.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
The recession was 6+ years ago, perfect timing for those undergrads to become
grad/phd students. I think his point still stands.

------
tosseraccount
"an internal report in the National Science Foundation, a key government
agency, actually advocated the use of the H-1B program as a means of holding
down PhD salaries, by flooding the job market with foreign students. The NSF
added that the stagnation of salaries would push domestic students away from
PhD study, which is exactly what has happened".

[http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b10min.html](http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b10min.html)

------
robotresearcher
Many of the best research universities in the world are in the US. 95%+ of the
world's population is not. The best schools have access to the global talent
pool, so if the system is working even fairly well to identify great students,
you would expect most PhD candidates to be from elsewhere.

------
guelo
Good thing immigrants go to graduate school or CS research would completely
cease in this country since everyone else is trying to cash in.

------
calcsam
There was a joke in the Stanford economics department a few years ago: "There
are two American professors in the department, and one of them is named
Bhattacharya"

------
raincom
It is not just Ph.D; it is the case in M.S in STEM fields. 99% of Masters
students in STEM are foreigners, most of them are Indians and Chinese.
Usually, these foreign master students puzzle why American citizens don't
pursue masters.

~~~
munin
Because masters degrees are for suckers? Especially paying for one?

~~~
jerf
Really, really unconvinced that's the case for computer science. Graduate
level classes are definitely yet another cut above undergrad classes, and a
lot of the sub-fields that are heating up right now are currently graduate-
level only, and in many cases, likely to stay that way. You just aren't going
to get into serious machine learning or computer vision in an undergrad
course, without rewriting the entire required curriculum for that explicit
purpose. (The prerequisites for those things are already considered senior-
level courses.)

Disclaimer: I have one, but they paid me for it. I got it 2000-2002; a
moment's thought will reveal why I thought that was a good way to spend those
years.... (Spoiler: Which is better, being paid to get a grad-level degree or
unemployment?)

~~~
munin
in my experience the grad classes are whatever the professor can slap together
at the last minute. the reason to get a graduate degree is for the research
and mentorship and maybe you can get that out of a masters degree but probably
not most of the time.

edit: if you can get paid to get a masters, then why not. support is usually
tiered so that phd students are covered and whatever is left over can go to
masters students though...

------
blackguardx
From my anecdotal evidence in grad school, this is largely true across many
other engineering fields as well. I think some of it is driven by immigration
policies and some by culture. A Ph.D. in the US doesn't get you as much
respect these days as it used to. Other cultures place more value on higher
education.

Also, in a lot of other countries, you can't do much with just an
undergraduate degree.

~~~
HLRoku
This is pure speculation, but I think the devaluation on PhDs in America might
have to do a lot with the large of influx of people in college just attending
to "get a degree". I feel this made colleges more of a business than a place
of learning with the large increase in revenues, and thus leading to PhDs and
fields that aren't as respected or really don't have a basis for being around
other than people are willing to pay for it.

------
lighthawk
Interesting data, but it seems like the CRA could use some data visualization
help.

Instead of a rich gradient of color to indicate percent, it chooses a small
subset of shades (and texture). I know- this is common, but since many
percentages are close to 50%, it makes them stand apart too much. And then
there is the mostly useless indicator of metric distance: the U.S. uses miles
as the standard not km, and if you don't know how big the U.S. is, then the
data in this map is probably of no use to you. Finally, a dotted texture was
used that looks pretty 1990s, so it stands out too much with the others being
solid colors. The colors aren't even in the same palette or color family. And
the orange dots seem too fat and clash with at least one of those greens.

------
Taylor_OD
As a tech recruiter this does not surprise me. I have met exactly 1 CS PhD in
the last 9 months that was a US born Citizen.

~~~
santaclaus
That is a bit surprising. When pursuing my CS PhD the breakdown felt closer to
60/40 non-US vs. US citizens. US born citizens were certainly outnumbered, but
not to the degree that you observed. This was in NYC, however, the breakdown
could vary geographically, perhaps?

~~~
pincubator
I did my PhD in mid-west, and I literally only met 2 American PhD students
during my entire PhD (majority was Chinese and Indian students who pursue a
PhD as a gateway to a top job). I guess location is a big factor.

~~~
sjg007
Mid-west is probably a good choice since you can afford to live there on a
stipend. Other coastal places not so much.

~~~
pincubator
It also makes sense why there are less American PhD students in those kind of
locations when you look from their perspective. If I were an American, there
was no way for me to spend 5+ years of my life in mid-west with 1500K a month
(instead, I could just lend to a top company in a good location with $$$$).
But for most of the foreign nationals, such an experience is OK to bear with
in return for a better life standard.

------
donatj
I'd imagine it's at least in part cultural. I got a job developing after
receiving a two year degree almost ten years ago now, and have felt almost
zero pressure to pursue further degrees. My career has grown beyond what I
ever imagined too. American development shops and developers in my experience
value degrees far less than actual experience and ability. You can jump right
in and start having actual experience or you can spend 6 years in school and
come out behind your peers. My 2¢ anyway.

------
revelation
Something that wasn't mentioned here: a Ph.D. in the US is a great way to
increase your chances for an offer for professorship back home in Europe (or
anywhere, really). That will skew the number towards people who fully intend
to leave after getting their Ph.D. as naturally US naturals can derive no such
benefit. In fact, if we imagine the opposite holds, they might well be
penalized for getting their Ph.D. at a US university.

~~~
robotresearcher
This effect could be explained by the international standing of the university
without recourse to inverse-nationalist bias. A Stanford degree is better for
an Italian than a Sapienza Rome degree. But a Cambridge degree is better for
an American than a Georgia Tech degree. Since the US has lots of top-tier
universities, you see lots of American-trained professors in European schools.

------
samfisher83
A reason why some people get PhD is it makes it easier to get residency.
Citizens don't have the same incentive.

------
digitalzombie
I've seen people arguing that you don't need a degree.

I think getting a BS in Comp Sci was the best decision I've made.

It made me well rounded and I've done many different things within the field
of comp sci (web dev, full stack, mobile, etc...).

But I'm going back for a master in statistic so I can do data science. I don't
believe a master in comp sci would help much because I have the foundation of
BS in Comp Sci to pick up most comp sci book and further myself in CompSci.

------
gjkood
A study forwarded by another HN member in another similar discussion. Very
interesting statistics.

[https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/07/12/new-report-
sh...](https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/07/12/new-report-shows-
dependence-us-graduate-programs-foreign-students)

------
dopeboy
Not surprising. I went to a public (UC) school for undergraduate and a private
school for a graduate degree. > 90% of my TAs (who were on the PhD track) in
both programs were from abroad.

------
PaulHoule
I think this is true for PhD's in all male-dominated fields. (And it has a lot
to do with male domination because the foreign students lean strongly male)

------
sjg007
One factor is the hot job market which US citizens have direct access to.

------
johnward
I don't know much about the doctorate process but do these people get
scholarships/sponsorships? Most of the time those appear to be favored towards
foreign students.

~~~
pgbovine
The opposite is true. Many federal research scholarships are open only to U.S.
citizens or at least permanent residents.

