
Gruber on the Macbook Pro Keyboard - nikon
https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/04/25/johnston-mbp-keyboard
======
welly
I'm struggling a bit on what my next laptop will be. Apple owner since I don't
know when, currently on a late 2013 MBP. It's still going but I suspect it
doesn't have a vast amount of life left. Every few months I lose another
pixel.

I certainly wouldn't upgrade to the current range so they're going to have to
do something special in the next 12-18 months or I'll be taking an Ubuntu
desktop crash course and getting a Lenovo or similar.

~~~
preek
I’m in the same boat and use the same MBP.

The MBP is by default already booting into Debian and its so much better than
macOS. Every time I go back, it’s a nightmare.

My best bet (after looking around a lot) is the newest Lenovo x1 Carbon.

~~~
vldx
Do you miss the macOS shortcuts? I’m in the same boat as you (early 2013) and
starting to looking more and more to X1 Carbon. The emacs-like system wide
shortcuts is what I’m afraid of missing mostly.

~~~
preek
_hihi_ , funny that you would mention that you're afraid of the emacs-like
shortcuts, because I gave this week a talk called "Play Emacs like an
instrument"[1].

Honestly, under Linux, I'm using i3wm[2] as a Window Manager and Emacs (with
evil-mode) for mostly everything else. Everything is accessible with
shortcuts. I don't miss macOS for those and not for a whole lot of other
things. The only thing I haven't found a better (that's subjective, of course)
alternative, yet, is HDR photography editing.

1\.
[http://200ok.ch/posts/2018-04-27_Play_Emacs_like_an_Instrume...](http://200ok.ch/posts/2018-04-27_Play_Emacs_like_an_Instrument.html)

------
linguae
I'm wondering if anyone else here thinks that the time is ripe for a
competitor to Mac OS X given Apple's missteps regarding the Mac as of late?
I'm in the market for a new laptop to replace my dead 2013 MacBook Air, and
I'm not pleased with any of Apple's laptop offerings at this time. I've been
thinking about buying a ThinkPad 480 or HP EliteBook 830 G5, but this will
mean transitioning to Windows 10 or Linux, which are still a step or two down
from Mac OS X for me.

I wish there were an workstation-focused operating system out there that had
the polish of Mac OS X but can run on a wide range of PCs. Since the demise of
BeOS there hasn't been any new commercial operating systems for personal
computers; it's just Windows, Mac OS X, or commercial Linux distributions.
Personally it should be inspired by some of the best ideas of computing, ideas
that were ahead of their time back when they first appeared but may be
successful today if reimplemented and reintroduced the right way. I'm talking
about some of the ideas of Smalltalk that didn't make its way into
contemporary GUIs. I'm talking about Lisp machines such as the ones Symbolics
made that ran the Genera environment. Take the ideas of such systems, then add
something like Apple's OpenDoc to encourage the construction of small,
composable GUI tools that developers could write, and then use tried-and-true
UI guidelines like those from the Mac OS 8 era, and we would have an operating
system that is extensible, has a consistent user interface conforming to
tried-and-true guidelines, and supports programmable GUI workflows while also
supporting the command line via some sort of REPL.

~~~
scroot
I feel you man.

There is a guy working on his own "open source" laptop, and his eventual goal
is to have it run lisp all the way down:

[http://mntmn.com/reform/](http://mntmn.com/reform/)

------
wintorez
I hate to be that guy, but in my opinion, Apple has completely changed
direction from the business of building general computers, to the business of
building mobile devices. Also, it's a shame that they are sacrificing
usability and durability to build the thinnest and lightest eye candy for
coffeeshop crowd.

~~~
solomatov
Apple pivoted their business to a business of luxury devices. Great tools
isn't a target anymore unfortunately for professionals.

------
notadoc
You know the MacBook Pro situation is bad when even the biggest cheerleaders
of all-things-Apple say it's bad.

The now three year old 2015 model remains the best Mac laptop available, it's
an upgrade in every way; a wonderful working keyboard, a hardware escape key,
hardware function keys, no annoying Touch Bar, ports, MagSafe, no dongles
needed, did I mention ports?

I genuinely hope Apple scraps the current models entirely and starts anew with
the MacBook Pro, with the professional user actually in mind. They already
have two consumer focused laptops, why did they screw up the pro?

~~~
finaliteration
I got a new laptop for work about 2 months ago and opted for the 2015 model
MBP (mostly due to “legacy” external devices and not wanting to spend a bunch
of money on dongles).

After all of these reviews coming out I’m really happy that I did.

~~~
snuxoll
Same here, bought a Apple refurbished 2015 15” last month - but now I have to
worry about the display separation issue instead of the touchbar, keyboard and
ports.

------
lynndylanhurley
I had to use my old 2012 MBP the other day after using the 2016 MBP since it
was released, and the 2012 keyboard was a stunning improvement over the 2016.

Which is strange because I never thought the 2012 keyboard was exceptional.

Do any of you prefer the new keyboard?

~~~
danieldk
I like the new keyboard, they keys feel more stable and I can generally type
faster due to less travel.

However, the problems are real. My ‘t’ key gets stuck regularly. Some other
keys have had problems as well. And I rarely use the keyboard (at work I
connect a Microsoft Natural Keyboard). I have also heard that colleagues have
stuck keys.

I think it is absolutely inexcusable for a laptop that was 1699 Euro new. I
have been a Mac user for 10 years. But Apple’s inability and unwillingness to
address the problem leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I am now also unlikely to
recommend MacBooks until they fix this issue.

~~~
dzhiurgis
I do like the new keyboard too, but I think older was waaay more accurate.

Mine got replaced after one year use (and I got AppleCare immediately after
that). Unfortunately after less than a month keys started to get stuck again
and I do keep quite good hygiene around my computer.

------
sathomasga
Folks may make fun of me, but I'm still pleased as can be with my 2016 MacBook
Air. Maxed out on CPU, memory, and disk, it's plenty powerful for front-end
development, and since I'm almost always connected to an external monitor, the
lack of a Retina display is of little consequence.

~~~
Dunedan
You could've also chosen a non-Touch Bar MacBook Pro 2016/2017: Same weight as
the MacBook Air, but smaller size, a Retina display, faster CPU, twice the
amount of RAM possible and the option for a larger SSD. Downside is of course
that it's more expensive than a MacBook Air.

------
solomatov
The same stuff happened to me. I had stupidity to try to clean it myself and
all this resulted in pricey repair and having to cope with a temporary laptop
for a week.

My next laptop probably will be Dell.

P.S. For now, I use MacBook Pro 2015 but it getting more and more out of date.
Especially after release of hex-core processors.

~~~
ajacksified
I thought I was going crazy, or maybe I was just messy or something. I've got
a 2017 (maybe 6 months old), and I've lost 'u', 'c', and a couple other keys -
they only work if I press down hard. I usually dock it, but it's super
frustrating to use it _like a laptop_.

------
tankerdude
It's miserable, the new keyboard. 30+ years of having the escape key in the
upper left hand corner for me, and for them to switch it over to an _offset_
touch escape key has driven me a little insane.

------
svdr
I have both a MBP and a Macbook, and the Macbook (2016) is even worse. Keys
get stuck all the time, I get them lose using compressed air. Apple even has a
page on it: [https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT205662](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662)

PS: I like the feeling of the MBP keyboard.

~~~
bischofs
> Apple even has a page on it: [https://support.apple.com/en-
> us/HT205662](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662)

If you have to hold your 15" computer like a restaurant menu with one hand and
a compressed air tank in the other - it is a very bad design.

Jobs would not tolerate this.

~~~
jonknee
> Jobs would not tolerate this.

He's the guy who blamed a customer for holding the iPhone wrong instead of
admitting the antenna design was poor, I could definitely see Jobs not
accepting that people live with dust.

------
Dunedan
Keys stopping to work is one thing, but for me the Touch Bar and the screwed
arrow keys are similarly disappointing. Apple should've seen this coming. What
were they thinking?

~~~
mFixman
I never understood the hate for the touchbar. I found no decrease in
productivity after remapping Escape to Caps Lock, and both the special options
for applications and the more granular volume and brightness controls make it
more enjoyable than having F-keys.

~~~
cschep
I find that having to look down at it to hit any of the "buttons" accurately
is a huge decrease in productivity. I loved having play/pause right where it
goes. Now I have to look at it, hit a button to go to a second level menu,
then hit the button. AND it costs more money. That's not good.

------
faramarz
I have a MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Late 2013) and the 'E' key has stopped
functioning altogether.

I've been quoted between 15-250 to replace the keyboard. I haven't been able
to leave the notebook at a shop yet but my workaround is to use it stationed
connected to a Bluetooth keyboard.

I wonder if this issue is common with my model as well (not the butterfly
mechanics i beleive)

~~~
micv
I have the same MBP and the keyboard is still working great despite my taking
exceptionally poor care of it (multiple drink spills). I've not heard any buzz
about HW failure rates with that model so I think you might just be unlucky.

------
tvmalsv
I still keep holding out for the MBP that probably won't appear (with lots of
ports and a magsafe charging connection, and while I've never tried the newest
keyboard, I love my current one). My current MBP is a mid-2010 (2009? maybe?
can't remember), and it still runs great, especially after replacing the HDD
with an SSD several years ago.

However, El Capitan is the last OSX that will install on it, and this year
even the Turbotax software gave me a warning that their software for next year
will not run on my system and I'll have to either get a newer one or use their
web product.

------
twodave
I got a new, maxed MBP about 4 months ago. I hate the keyboard, and typically
hook it up to my DAS Keyboard 4 Professional at work, but when I work from
elsewhere I am constantly resting my fingertips on escape and “hey Siri” touch
bar buttons, or the point that I’ve developed muscle memory to close Siri
whenever I open it by mistake. Worst keyboard layout I’ve ever experienced.
Not to mention there’s hardly any feedback in the switches (especially
compared to my cherry Browns).

------
hexsprite
It happened to me. They had to replace the whole top case under warranty
because a crumb got into the keyboard. And since I got it back I have been
pretty careful but still it seems like one of the keys is starting to go.
Thank goodness for AppleCare. Hope Apple fixes this in the next release.

~~~
shabble
As long as it's covered, I'd hope everyone is bringing them in for servicing
and repair as often as necessary, since that seems like the only way they'll
take any action, if it costs them enough in support and refurb costs.

Public outcry is nice, but unless it's actually stopping people buying them,
I'm not sure it helps.

------
maurits
I absolutely loved my 2011 Air which always was a great combination for me
with a linux server for all the heavy lifting.

This week I will somewhat begrudgingly swap out the Air for a 2015 15 inch
MBP, hoping it will last me long.

------
haubey
One of my shift keys doesn't work reliably. I'm just waiting for the day when
the other key and the caps lock also go dark and I won't be able to log in to
my computer.

------
georgehaake
Curious to hear from anyone who has used these directly, not clamshelled for
several months or more and have been keyboard issue free.

~~~
whitehouse3
Daily use since July 2017 without issues.

------
snissn
My keys were getting stuck, but spraying a can of compressed air underneath
the keys opened them up again

~~~
cdolan
So in addition to a pack of dongles for basic connections, do you carry a can
of compressed air in your pack as well?

Give me a break, Apple

------
yarrel
Wow it must be bad.

------
sp332
Please link to the original article. [https://theoutline.com/post/4277/dont-
buy-the-new-macbook-pr...](https://theoutline.com/post/4277/dont-buy-the-new-
macbook-pros-even-on-sale-in-my-opinion) Linking to Gruber instead caused a
bunch of confusion last time.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15499536](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15499536)

~~~
Analemma_
I think it's nortable and worth linking to the Gruber article, because he's
usually a reliable apologist for any Apple screwups. When even he's saying
it's bad, it's real fuckin' bad.

