
Refugees Detained at U.S. Airports, Prompting Legal Challenges - bko
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/28/us/refugees-detained-at-us-airports-prompting-legal-challenges-to-trumps-immigration-order.html
======
wheelerwj
> "Mr. President... Call Mr. Trump."

Having been detained by CBP several times I can see the smug look on this
officers face. Like, "It's not my policy but I'm happy to do my job."

You see, this is the biggest problem that no one is talking about. Sure, these
policies (mass surveillance, unlawful detention, violation of human rights)
are handed down by edict by a powerful faction at the top of the food chain,
but they are enforced by every day people. People against people, that's what
this is about. Its our friends, our colleagues, and neighbors that are doing
this. People, the people who have these jobs, have the moral right to resist
these policies. They must fight their supervisors or they must resign if they
cannot fight. We as a society have to agree that we won't mindlessly follow
such ignorant leaders.

Do you know why we still hunt down Nazi's 80 years later? Because "I'm just
doing what I'm told" isn't a good excuse.

~~~
gotchange
That's why I'm in favor of the RW libertarians view of big government and how
it's in the best interest of society to have as much small a government as
possible to avoid situations like these as large bureaucracies tend to corrupt
over time and when they turn evil, they hurt innocent people that come close
to them.

~~~
otalp
The original Libertarians were left wing anti-government anarchists. The word
was appropriated by the far right in the US, and The ones today are Ayn Rand
fanatics- the likes of Paul Ryan, who are anti-labour and pro-business.
Reducing the power of the government - an institution in which people have
some kind of say in - while allowing corporations to flourish - institutions
where citizens have absolutely no say in - leads to oligarchy.

There are interesting approaches to reducing government size from left-
liberterains(Libertarian socialist and Anarchists) but they are not mainstream
in the US, which has shifted so far right over the last few decades that
Eisenhower would in many policy matters be considered a far-left unelectable
today.

~~~
meanduck
> _while allowing corporations to flourish - institutions where citizens have
> absolutely no say in_

Wrong. Corporations are the one of most sensitive organisation types. Stop
giving them money, see how soon and peacfully they die. Remind me a state that
has given its power peacefully ?

~~~
otalp
Difficult to stop giving them money when they sell products billions use, and
also employ millions. It's probably easier to overthrow the half the states in
the world than to bring down Apple.

~~~
meanduck
Oh cmon at least be realistic. Are you sure, 5 years from now, Apple is going
to be as powerful as today ?

Market always tend toword decentralisation. More so in AnCap one.

------
aphextron
>According to the filing, Hameed Khalid Darweesh was granted a special
immigrant visa on Jan. 20, the same day Mr. Trump was sworn in. He worked with
the United States in Iraq in a variety of jobs — as an interpreter, engineer
and contractor — over the course of roughly a decade.

This is completely insane. Not only is it a blatant violation of human rights
and our treaties regarding refugees, but this is going to be a major blow to
our national security. The promise of American citizenship is one of the major
driving factors for informants and interpreters around the world that help our
armed forces. Trump seems hellbent on making life miserable for anyone tasked
with actually protecting our country.

~~~
WildUtah
So we should invite traitors and collaborators into the USA? Those are the
last people we should allow to join us here. That's the thing about cheaters:
They cheated on their last partner with you and they'll cheat on you soon
enough.

If we'd keep our noses out of nation building where it's none of our business
we'd need a whole lot less of these people. Let that be a lesson to us the
next time a fool president wants to invade a new Iraq.

~~~
aphextron
>So we should invite traitors and collaborators into the USA?

I'd like to see you call the Kurdish interpreters I served with in Iraq
traitors. Do you actually have any idea what you're talking about, or just
spouting nonsense? These people are fighting for their lives against
terrorists, too. And at _much_ greater risk than we did.

~~~
WildUtah
Of course the USA should support the recognition of the Kurdish state and its
success and freedom. And that is where Kurdish aides to the US have a right to
live.

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zymhan
This is disgusting. To show such blatant disregard for civil liberties and
human rights and a dozen other pinnacles of developed/western/first world
countries is an affront to what we've accomplished and supposedly learned from
the past.

I mean seriously, barring refugees on Holocaust Rememberance day, and then
only describing those killed as "victims", seems like it should be a very,
very dark SNL skit.

~~~
polotics
Trump is putting the lives of soldiers who have to rely on these interpreters
and local fixers at risk. It's now clear to anyone in Irak that whoever works
for or help the Americans takes risks on all sides, and will not be supported.
Just grrrrreat.

~~~
rl3
I found this article very informative:

[http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/01/28/trump-
refugee-...](http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/01/28/trump-refugee-rule-
block-military-interpreters-us.html)

The tl:dr is that interpreters are already vetted to an extreme degree before
they can receive visas under the SIV program, and that this order may in fact
cost lives.

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csomar
Imo, this is another show of why politics doesn't work. Or maybe why politics
is not efficient.

Somebody does something (an act of terrorism). Instead of fixing the issue at
its core, a politician will, instead, do something that is completely
unrelated, random and inefficient but that looks like he is doing real work
(banning muslims from entry).

A terrorist going on a killing spree is not different than a destabilized
white American 30-something going on a killing spree. Both are destabilized
(mentally) but for different reasons.

Most people would not care because it doesn't affect their bottom line.
Banning muslims isn't an issue for your average American family, even if it
doesn't stop terrorism.

~~~
zo1
This is the same line of reasoning that prevents valid use of profiling. Until
you can clearly identify and prove the "issue" that you mention then we have
to make do with half-solutions that may be the wrong answer in some instances.
As an engineer/problem-solver I find this perfectly logical and reasonable.
You can't just throw your arms up and say "sorry" when it could very well mean
people dying and the dying of people is exactly what you're trying to prevent.
If this blanket policy saves even one life I would find it justified.

Either way... It doesn't sound like the two individuals in the article are
actual persecuted refugees. The article doesn't elaborate on that. We're just
expected to assume that. But we're told what amazing humans they are and how
much they helped the US. That sounds more like a dishing out of green card
favors in return for services.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Its always "anything to save a life!" when its nobody you know. But take away
_your_ liberties in the interest of lifesaving, and its a different story.
That's called hypocrisy. And in this case its very harmful.

~~~
zo1
I never said I would oppose it if it affected me or someone I know. Even
though from that position I might think the response is overdoing it, I still
think that they could have logical justification for it.

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becarefulyo
This is absolutely ridiculous. Nationalism needs to be nipped at the bud
before it spirals out of control.

These orders should not be followed. Nuremberg defense doesn't hold up.

~~~
throwawayish
Remind me, who exactly voted the narcissistic nationalist into the executive
office controlling the worlds largest surveillance and secret service/police
apparatus?

Small Government is a nice, and good, idea, but history shows us that neither
surveillance apparatus (pl.) nor secret police (pl.) relinquish power, ever,
within existing in the same continuum of legitimation (ie. state). There has
been no previous instance where either were reduced; they only grow until
chopped off entirely.

It's an infestation of the state. There is only one - proven - cure. (And I
think it's naïve to assume that those who built and grow these structures are
not aware of this)

~~~
gotchange
> Small Government is a nice, and good, idea, but history shows us that
> neither surveillance apparatus (pl.) nor secret police (pl.) relinquish
> power, ever, within existing in the same continuum of legitimation (ie.
> state). There has been no previous instance where either were reduced; they
> only grow until chopped off entirely.

Is there a book or article that I can read about this point?

I'd really appreciate it if you could show me a few examples.

~~~
throwawayish
I think the most prominent examples would be: Nazis (obviously), Stasi / DDR /
GDR, Chile (Pinochet) and the dictatorship in Argentina; but in the last
century there were many more examples, be it in South America, Africa or
eastern Europe.

Wikipedia has a list of historical secret police:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historical_secret_poli...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historical_secret_police_organizations)

\--

Current examples that are still alive and well could be the various GCC
states, but especially Saudi Arabia there; the UK and the US to some degree
each (both are obviously full-blown surveillance states at the very least; and
it can be reasonably argued that (divisions of) the FBI and some other
agencies qualify as a secret police) in the western hemisphere; Russia.

------
baytrailcat
To me, what is striking is that USA has always been glimmering example of a
civilized society. An asymptote, if you will, of the curve of human progress.
It showed other countries what laws are logical ("self-evident"), what is the
best way to run an economy and what is the distilled essence of western
civilization. Sure, when you look closer, you can always find flaws and
internal-struggles. But the principles were always there as an inspiration.

Regardless of the geopolitical situations, it is fair to say that USA is
rapidly reaching a point where it can no longer lay a claim on those
principles. And I am not claiming that this happened on Nov 8, 2016. This has
been happening steadily since the beginning of this century (Iraq War, Abu
Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay etc.). And simultaneously it comes at a point where the
long term sustainability of its other important contribution (free-market
capitalism) is brought to question.

We are really living in an inflection point in history (Like end of European
imperialism, fall of communism etc.)

~~~
laretluval
> An asymptote, if you will, of the curve of human progress.

The curve of progress according to one faction, which it turns out has a lot
less popular support than it thought.

~~~
baytrailcat
Sure, ethno-nationalism has a claim on this mantle. But is it curving it
towards the right direction? Remember, we have been here multiple times before
(like the pre World War I world order). We had to suffer through a lot of
carnage to reach here. As a species, we reduced the total human suffering,
improved our lives, developed technology to overcome our ailments, began to
adopt reason over organized religion and we are almost figuring out how to
live with each other in spite of our genetic and cultural differences.
Centuries from now, when we are cruising towards stars (if we are lucky
enough) to spread through the galaxy, can we look back and say that this step
was in the right direction? I don't think so.

I think it of as more as an over-correction, an exploitation of the flaws in
the system which unfortunately will bring more bloodshed and suffering to get
through before getting replaced.

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thogenhaven
This is most of all a story about instability in Western societies. In my 34
years on this planet, I cannot remember any time where one would enter a plane
with a valid visa, only to realuze everything changed so swiftly.

I'm concerned that this will be the trend many places in society now.

~~~
grappler
Just imagine what classified orders are being worked on, or already signed,
right now. I wouldn't hold out much hope for any of the limits that have been
in place regarding surveillance, foreign or domestic, on citizens or
noncitizens.

~~~
hedora
Yeah, based on public executive orders (like no privacy unless you have a
green card or are a citizen), I've given up on the idea of privacy from law
enforcement at work. There are people with visas in ear shot, and on many of
the pull requests I send out.

Presumably it will be slurped real time into some NSA data center. Thanks to
that thing Obama did in the 11th hour, it will then be streamed back to local
law enforcement for data mining.

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coldcode
Orders such as these will cause people in foreign countries to no longer
support or trust US soldiers. Imagine what a storm this will cause when troops
start dying because they have no intelligence as to who is friend or foe and
what the situation is. Anything you do to people in the US risks having the
same happen to Americans in general and not just soldiers in other countries.
Note Google is trying to get their people who happened to be traveling in
those countries home as soon as possible. I also find it amusing that none of
the countries Trump does business in are affected.

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gorbachev
It's amazing to see policy making without any planning whatsoever.

~~~
hedora
This seems well planned to me. We were told it was coming (not in this exact
form) throughout the campaign. Trump has also promised to arrest millions of
immigrants in the next four years.

He has to start small. CBP already operates in the constitution free "border
zone". It's a perfect way to normalize larger scale unlawful detentions in the
public eye and set legal precedents.

Put another way, Oakland and San Francisco airports are almost certainly
illeglly detaining innocent people that are in the country legally right now.
If the feds started by pulling people with visas and green cards from desks in
Silicon Valley or SF there would be riots in the streets.

I am talking about two groups of people within 50 miles of each other, which
(until the executive order) had the same legal status.

This is not OK, and it is naive to think it is poorly planned. (I hope you're
right though, and trump tweets an apology/release order this weekend.)

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hedora
Protesters should swarm these airports until the prisoners are released.

~~~
hedora
Instead of down voting, could you present a better idea? Spouses of American
citizens on legal visas are being indefinitely detained without any cause.

So are members of the US government. They did nothing at all to provoke this
reaction from the authorities. Some of them even actively "kept their heads
down".

If people do nothing about this now, where will it end?

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Cursuviam
And students too. :P

