
My dad got scammed for $3k worth of gift cards - prostoalex
https://thehustle.co/phone-scam-gift-cards/
======
djflutt3rshy
A lot of failures here:

1) Caller-ID spoofing. It straight out should not be possible to spoof
government phone numbers, 911, etc. My Android has "Scam Likely" show up when
a scammer calls (I believe this is part of the STIR/SHAKEN protocol), this
should be expedited, expanded, and improved upon.

2) Someone should not be able to buy $3000 of Target gift cards without doing
a lot of explaining. Personal experience: The grocery store I go to; the
registers will straight out refuse to ring up above $500 of gift cards, you
have to use the Customer Service desk where their agents grill you (and I do
mean _grill_ you, their default mode seems to be "You're being scammed",
especially if you're on the phone with someone).

3) If I buy gift cards in New York, there's zero reason someone in Bangalore,
India should immediately be able to redeem those gift cards. Perhaps Target
could should spend some of their data collection techniques on this instead of
trying to figure out if your daughter is pregnant so they can send you
maternity coupons.

4) Is there a reason unused gift cards bought within a certain amount of time
shouldn't be refundable?

~~~
Spooky23
The whole gift card game is a big scam.

Between lost cards, the obvious money laundering and tax avoidance grifts,
etc, it's a pretty absurd instrument.

~~~
nitrogen
I'm familiar with a story of an ecommerce site that offered a discount on
digitally delivered gift cards to encourage holiday gifting. But they didn't
think to prevent people from buying more gift cards with those gift cards.

~~~
ux-app
Sorry, i must be slow, what's the scam here? If I buy a $10 gift card with a
$10 gift card, aren't we just swapping $10?

~~~
gbrits
It's the discount. E.g.: $10 buys you a $12 gift card .. buys you a $14.4 gift
card... ad infinitum

------
techsupporter
I've told both of my parents--in their 70s--that I will never, under any
circumstances, ever call them for money and that any call they might ever
receive claiming to be me asking for money or asking for it on my behalf is
guaranteed to be a scam.

Yet it still happened that, during the exact week my family was on a Caribbean
cruise that included a stop in Mexico[0], scammers targeted both of my
parents' mobile phone numbers insisting that they were alternatively Mexican
authorities demanding bail money for me or that they were my spouse sobbing
over the phone that I'd been in a tragic boating accident and needed money for
the hospital.

This was before international roaming was included with my mobile phone plan
so when I got back to port a few days later I turned on my phone that morning
to several voicemails from my parents, starting out panicky then realizing
what was going on then positively jovial at how they'd played the scammers
along for almost a full day.

They didn't send any money but both of them said it was incredibly difficult
to keep what I'd told them in mind because "what if it _really was_ you
needing help?"

0 - We think the scammers got the information off of the Facebook pages of one
of our related family members who posted publicly about "being envious of [my
name tagged] going to Cozumel" next week and then trolling linked family
members for people who appeared older.

~~~
fortran77
I also warn my mother not to think she's clever and talk back to the scammers.
"Don't tell them off" I tell her. Just hang up. Say nothing.

> then realizing what was going on then positively jovial at how they'd played
> the scammers along for almost a full day.

...because once they realize they're talking to an old lady, they may realize
the "kidnapping" story may not work, but a call verifying something for a
Stimulus check might (for example).

Just hang up. You won't outwit them.

~~~
selykg
I love talking to them because it's time they aren't talking to someone else.
My goal is to waste their time, not "outwit" them.

I'd like to think that if enough people did this they wouldn't make any money.

~~~
ceejayoz
There are a few Twitch streamers doing this. I saw one that had a VM set up
with all sorts of fuckery built-in to mess with them.

~~~
greycol
Yeah one guy has sound effects (such as driving for going to the store to buy
the gift cards) and voice modification set up.

There was a video that he kept the scammer on the phone for 6+ hrs then at the
end when he was giving them the apple cards was "confused" and redeemed $20000
dollars onto "her" "own" account to send them a computer all on a vm where
they could watch her putting in the cards codes and go through the checkout
but the control software "was broken" so they couldn't interfere.

edit: Youtuber/twitch streamer is mentioned below, Kitboga

------
pengaru
> My dad is not a gullible man. He grew up low-income at the border of
> Brooklyn and Queens, where street smarts were a survival mechanism. A
> 30-year career teaching high school students trained him to sniff out
> bullshit from a mile away.

Your dad _was_ not a gullible man.

My dad was a very aggressive and assertive person throughout his life, didn't
trust anyone, lived through some very hard times like post-war Italy where
apparently even the feral cats vanished for lack of food.

Then in retirement it's like everything experienced which conditioned him to
be that way just faded away. His edge dulled substantially.

The last time I traveled with him we were approached by someone on the streets
of Palermo who was obviously (to me) sizing us up. Within minutes of talking
with this total stranger my dad had revealed where both his money and passport
were kept on his person. I had to abruptly intervene and remove us from the
situation by insisting we enter the restaurant we happened to be passing. When
I explained to him what had just transpired, he was in complete disbelief at
how easily he had been tricked. The whole thing surprised me because my dad
was the one objecting to our exploring the south of Italy the entire trip
because of the crime and poverty!

Even with him _expecting_ we were going to have such problems he didn't catch
it. A previous version of my father would have not only seen it coming, he
likely would have escalated it with violence, he's a gruff old Italian sailor.
This was like taking candy from a child.

It's incredible how much people change in old age.

~~~
tropdrop
In regards to this topic, the "gullible" line of thought misses the forest for
the trees, because it still operates in the mode of "it was your personal
responsibility [to not be scammed], and if you were, it is because you were
gullible." This means the elderly are particularly vulnerable, as per your
account, but it also means that there's less inclination to push for change
and protection against scams like this from the general public in America. (I
feel that in other cultures, such as Japan, the elderly tend to be regarded
with respect for their wisdom rather than derision of their "regressing"
minds).

My anecdotal story to the contrary of yours: I have a friend who graduated
from a top 10 US college a few years ago and couldn't find a job. Right when
they were desperately filing for applications and feeling very worried about
their future (as recent college graduates are wont to do), this person
received a call from 911 that fell exactly into this class:

>Impersonations of government employees accounted for ~60% of these cases.

The "911" was from the local police department of the city where they lived.
The person was told that a warrant for their arrest has been issued - that 3
years before, there was a particular document to be filed with the IRS that
had to declare all scholarship money awarded for a particular scholarship, and
according to their documents, that document is three years overdue and has
already incurred $700 in fines. The amount of time elapsed since the due date
warranted x many jail days without immediate payment, and a mark on the
criminal record... additionally, since this involves defrauding the
government, their freshly minted university degree was about to be revoked.

My friend is an immigrant. They didn't know that university degrees couldn't
be revoked, nor that no such thing as "government vouchers" bought from a
grocery store existed (this was the trick - when the person arrives looking
for the vouchers at Target or Office Depot, the agent on the phone says that
some gift card can be an acceptable form of payment instead).

I took note of this scam both because of how elaborate it was, how
_believable_ it was (especially to someone less than familiar with the US
government), how the person on the "911" call used psychological tactics to
continue to make this vulnerable person more and more panicked about their
future particularly at a time when they were already financially insecure. My
friend was not gullible. But my friend did fear repercussions from the US
government enough to completely fall for this scam.

~~~
ciguy
This worked because you can actually buy government revenue vouchers or stamps
to pay for official fees or transactions in many countries. I could definitely
see this being believable to someone coming from a country where this is a
thing.

------
Pfhreak
If you aren't already familiar, check out Kitboga:
[https://www.twitch.tv/kitboga](https://www.twitch.tv/kitboga)

He live streams calling scammers that are running exactly these sorts of
scams, tries to tie them up for as long as possible, wasting their time. It's
super educational as well, showing how these scammers try various tactics to
keep people afraid.

~~~
outworlder
There's also Jim Browning (not his real name)-
[https://www.youtube.com/c/JimBrowning/videos](https://www.youtube.com/c/JimBrowning/videos)

Although his practices are more... grey hat, he's managed to successfully
shutdown whole companies. He provided content for a BBC documentary too:
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000fzx2](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000fzx2)

Even though he regularly sends information to authorities, it is very rare
that they will do anything.

~~~
sprokolopolis
One thing that I enjoy about Browning's videos is that he often will be
proactive in helping victims. Sometimes he will catch scammers in the middle
of scamming others and either call the victim to educate them about what is
happening, sabotage the scam by reversing what the scammers are doing on their
computer, or just refunding the funds with the scammers' own systems.

He might not be as "fun" and whacky as some of the other baiters, but it his
videos can be quite interesting. He will sometimes figure out the hierarchy
and layout of their company and network, their physical locations, business
fronts, etc so that he can methodically take down the company.

------
cvg
If you’re in a store and see someone acting odd with gift cards, it’s ok to
say something and try to help out.

I recently encountered an elderly woman fiddling with some purchased gift
cards (at CVS) while talking to someone on her cell phone. They threatened to
disconnect her power immediately if she didn’t pay for a new meter
immediately. Luckily I convinced her to not share the numbers and hang up on
the scammer. It took her a while to even trust me. Poor woman had no idea who
to trust. I had her call the local utility who was super patient explaining
the situation and consoling her.

------
pwython
> "My dad is not a gullible man."

This article attempts to blame Target a couple of times for not doing enough.
But this guy was also sitting in another store's parking lot, Safeway, reading
off gift card codes to the "DEA."

No matter how smart you think your loved ones are, placing scrutiny on the
stores the scammers have chosen (especially as a journalist) is going to do
little except to add purchasing restrictions for everyone. A 17-year-old
minimum wage cashier isn't going to save your dad, it's the last place to look
to combat these "psychological tactics."

~~~
atomon
There's a reason these scammers choose gift cards as their preferred way to
get your money: gift cards have become the easiest way to move large amounts
of money while minimizing the chances of getting caught.

Every other business that deals with the transfer of money (banks, for
example) is expected to put strong measures in place to make sure that the
money is traceable and that they're not helping criminals. Why shouldn't large
companies like Target be held to a similar standard?

Moreover, the incentives here are very worrying. Yes this guy got scammed out
of $3k, but Target also got $3k in revenue. Without some sort of
penalty/punishment, Target is incentivized to do the bare minimum to minimize
their PR exposure (which they can do by saying "we take this very seriously
and have adopted some new policies" but not really acting on it) but to
otherwise allow this to keep happening. As the prevalence of these gift card
scams has skyrocketed, so have gift card sales for these large companies.

~~~
boyesm
From what I understand, a retail store doesn’t make any profit selling gift
cards for other stores.

The Safeway in this story didn’t make any money off of that $2k purchase of
Target cards and it could’ve saved/boosted its reputation if it had some
better protective measures in place. It also means that maybe people who
would’ve spent money at Safeway now can’t because they’ve lost several
thousand dollars.

~~~
newacct583
> From what I understand, a retail store doesn’t make any profit selling gift
> cards for other stores.

That seems dubious, considering they dedicate precious shelf and display space
to selling them. Accounting can get crazy in the real world, but clearly they
have a motive to move these things. The cards are on the shelf because the
cards make money for the store, somehow.

~~~
thatguy0900
I know that I have a lot of gift cards that go unused for months, or never
used at all. Probably a lot of profit in interest on holding all the money and
keeping anything not claimed after a few years.

------
Anthony-G
Excellent article – particularly for showing how powerful the limbic system is
and how it can completely overwhelm the neocortex (logical, rational part of
the brain) – a phenomenon referred to as _amygdala hijack_ [1]. The article
shows anyone could fall victim to such a scam – not just those who are stupid
and/or greedy. I was also struck by how the article detailed – in addition to
the monetary loss – the longer-term emotional consequences of being deceived
by scammers.

> My dad had received robocalls in the past and ignored them. But this one was
> different: it was a real, authoritative person on the line who knew his full
> name and address.

Earlier, the article reported that scammers get this personal information from
data brokers and it struck me that this is a reason why people should care
about privacy and who they trust with their personal data. This data could end
up being used against them – or their loved ones.

1:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdala_hijack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdala_hijack)

~~~
BLKNSLVR
> Earlier, the article reported that scammers get this personal information
> from data brokers and it struck me that this is a reason why people should
> care about privacy and who they trust with their personal data. This data
> could end up being used against them – or their loved ones.

This is a key point worth mentioning in any "nothing to hide, nothing to fear"
discussions about online tracking and the dangers of giving away private
information to websites, big or small. Once the data is out there, it's
available to any company with deep enough pockets to purchase it.

------
JackFr
My 84 year old mother got a message from the State of New York saying she had
unclaimed funds and should fill out a form to claim them. She quite reasonably
assumed this was a scam and ignored it. A few months later she mentioned it,
and my brother who was familiar with the actual process looked on the website,
saw that she did have unclaimed funds, and he filled out the form. Turns out
the initial message was completely legit. There was a brokerage account which
had fallen through the cracks when her own mother had died, and she got a
check for ~$20,000.

~~~
paultopia
This ^^^ is a big part of the problem right here --- legitimate messages from
government authorities are so totally non-credible that it makes the scammers'
jobs super easy.

Same is true of banks and such. A few months ago, I got a mortgage, and I was
totally blown away by how much profoundly suspicious shit that was actually
legit happened. Like, I'd get calls from totally random new people from the
mortgage company, no warning by anyone who I actually knew that this new
person was calling, often from their personal cellphones---and it would turn
out that the call was totally legit, and I actually was supposed to send more
sensitive financial documents to this random new person. Totally bonkers.

~~~
malwarebytess
I feel like some kind of PGP authentication system would be very useful for
private government to citizen communications. It would require some training
on users parts however.

~~~
lmm
The problem is that governments, banks etc. don't and can't credibly commit to
doing the right thing. E.g. banks in my previous company are furious because
just when they'd finally managed to convince most people to never open a link
from a text message, the government sent out a text message with a link to a
COVID-19 information page.

------
Areibman
This happened to my elderly neighbor last week. The scammers claimed to be
from Apple, ran a fake script, did the whole jig and dance, and demanded
immediate payment. She lost $8,000. These scammers are relentless and abusive.
They're still harassing her even 1 week later.

I'm shocked that Target just simply allows people to purchase so much in gift
cards all at once. I'm even more shocked that banks and transaction processors
don't mark this as suspicious or fraudulent.

But this isn't just a function of irresponsible companies. The elderly are
overwhelmed by technology, and it's too difficult to know what's real and what
isn't. After the scam, my neighbor had a near panic attack when she received
an innocuous Google security checkup email. How was she supposed to know it
was authentic or not?

~~~
flamtap
About the purchase of large amounts of gift cards; it’s not as uncommon as
you’d think. I worked at a grocery store customer service office and it wasn’t
uncommon to have people buy thousands of dollars in gift cards as giveaways or
prizes for events. No questions asked, really. The store was very eager to
pocket that money.

There should certainly be more checks and balances around that. Perhaps a
personal limit, and requiring a registered business to be the purchaser above
that. Or perhaps a redemption system.

But the incentive is not there for the stores. It’s of course better to sell
gift cards than the equal amount of merchandise for them

------
thrownaway954
i said this once before and it bears repeating...

Ask HN: How do you protect your parents from tech scammers?

simple... they call me first.

if there is one thing i have _never_ done to my parents, or _anyone_ for that
matter, is make fun of them if they call me and ask me for my professional
opinion in tech matters. this has extended to situations when they think the
situation is shoddy like they are being taken in a scam. i think _this_ is the
single reason why my parents have never fell victim to scams. i feel that
_most_ parents, or elderly people for that matter, fall victim cause they feel
pressure from both ends... the first being the scammers themselves, the second
being scared to ask _anyone_ if the situation is legit for fear of being made
fun of.

_noone_ should feel scared of being ridicule when asking any question
regarding their safety or well-being.

~~~
tialaramex
Yup. My sister too.

I had a text from her when I woke up the other day, she'd bought a new phone
and now the company was asking weird questions.

I figure for sure it's a scam and I phoned her immediately. But I gradually
realised it's actually not what I thought. I normally buy phones by just...
buying a phone, like a cheeseburger or a T-shirt, cash or card. But she's got
a new phone on contract, so that's a credit deal and the questions they're
asking, though prying, are credit agency ID confirm questions. Where you've
lived, photo of a passport, stuff like that. The firm seems legit, they're not
new to the business, they have a relationship to a Credit Reference Agency
that I've worked with before, so it's probably fine.

She seems reassured that I'd actually thought through why this might be OK,
and so long as her new iPhone shows up in the next few days all is good,
otherwise I guess I need to walk her through anti-fraud processes in case
somebody got all that as precursor to taking out credit in her name.

With my mother I got a call from her one day because her PC was literally
screaming. She'd clicked a link or visited a web site or something and now it
was constantly loudly demanding she phone the scammers and give them money to
"unlock" it. She'd had the peace of mind to instead walk into another room and
call me. I talked her through switching it off, bringing it up in safe mode
and forgetting the (hijacked) default page on the browser. Relatively simple
scam, but I expect it's effective on too many people.

~~~
skocznymroczny
Non-scam related story, but my mother called me once panicked, saying the
computer is on fire and she's worried it will burn. It took me some time to
understand what she meant by the computer is on fire. I had Linux installed on
her PC, I think Xubuntu, and it's running xscreensaver by default.
xscreensaver logo looks like a computer on fire. My mother thought that she
has to react quickly otherwise the PC will burn.

------
flerchin
I feel bad for the victims. It's almost always the elderly and they're
relentlessly pursued over the phone. You basically have to remove their
phones, or remove their capability to ruin their finances. I imagine that day
is coming quite soon for my in-laws.

~~~
A4ET8a8uTh0
I agree. My friend got scammed with a variation of the gift card scam. The
main difference in his case, fear was not exploited, but rather the search of
an amazing deal ( $100 for a new ipad or something like that ).

I probed a little bit since I was curious how he perceived it and he
effectively said the idea of getting a deal took the best of him.

~~~
sq_
At this point I just assume that any deal that looks too good to be true
probably is.

There's been a few times where I've found out after the fact that the deal
really was real, but I'd rather miss out on a good deal than get scammed.

~~~
tartoran
All phone solicitation is scammy, I think the government should advertise that
to old people.

~~~
sq_
For sure. I was mostly referring to online "deals" with my comment, but it
definitely applies to phone solicitation, too.

I personally ignore almost any phone call from unknown numbers these days
because so many are scammy or robocalls. I figure that if anyone really needs
me, they'll leave a message.

~~~
tartoran
I keep on getting robocalls from a Chinese scam for more than 1 to 2 years
now. I don't understand Chinese but asked a friend to translate and it's
obviously a scam aimed at older chinese expats. They always leave the same
message. Im surprised it still works after all this time.

------
mpap
This is an experience my parents experience on a regular basis. Unfortunately,
my father, who used to be very tech savvy - worked for Control Data for all of
his career - is suffering from mild dementia and my mother doesn't know up
from down on the computer. My father still loves to sit at his computer
putzing around but too often gets sucked into some kind of infomercial / scam.
As an additional example, we were recently charged over $1800 of overage fees
when my dad kept backing up his entire harddrive to a cloud service not really
knowing what he was doing.

It has gotten to the point where they really need me to assist them with all
most everything related to managing their computers. Unfortunately I am 1000
miles away so we struggle on the phone to get things sorted out.

What recommendations do people have for being able to remotely manage windows
machines. I am on windows 10 and they are still using w7. I'd like to be able
to remote into their machine with admin rights so I can manage software,
finances, etc.

thanks for any advice.

~~~
unnouinceput
VNC. Put a server on their computer and through a VPN you can safely do and
show them what you meant.

Or switch them to Linux. For browsing/mail it's perfect. And if they want to
have Windows games then make a separate partition where they play there and
cut access to internet for that Windows installation.

~~~
catalogia
> Or switch them to Linux. For browsing/mail it's perfect.

My dad switched to Xubuntu a few years ago and has been singing praise of it
ever since. It's a pretty straight forward desktop environment that isn't
prone to frequent radical changes like some other DEs. I think it's an ideal
DE for somebody with basic browsing/mail requirements.

~~~
walrus01
Seconding this. Literally 99% of what many old people need to do with a
computer can be accomplished with xubuntu/xfce desktop environment (which is
now a traditionally comfortable GUI similar to windows 98/2000), and inside a
browser like Firefox. Install ublock origin and a few other common sense
plugins.

~~~
mpap
Thanks. This makes a lot of sense. Hopefully they will go for it. Next time
I'm down in the Bay Area I will definitely try converting them and it sounds
like it might be the best solution for me to be able to remotely assist with
their computing needs. With the aging demographic in this country, I'd imagine
there is some real opportunity for someone to create more tools to help those
of us looking for solutions to help our parents navigate their safe computing
/ IT needs remotely.

------
AdmiralAsshat
I noticed the last time I tried to buy a PSN gift card at CVS (which I do
because I don't trust Sony to store my credit card information), the terminal
actually flashed a warning about gift card scams.

It's sad that this has become so common as to actually need these kind of
warnings. I understand if you're paying a ransomware threat and _know_ that
the guy on the other end of the line is a scumbag, but, I can't imagine how
someone gets fooled into thinking the FBI/IRS/other three-letter agency would
accept iTunes gift cards as tender, much less demand it.

~~~
gambiting
Tbf when you are sending a Western Union transfer, the form that you fill out
has a very specific warning, in bold, saying that WU is commonly used for
scams and to never ever send any money to someone you don't know. I imagine
the effectiveness of these warnings is near zero.

~~~
walrus01
Anecdotally the WU customer service agents (usually at third party check
cashing/money service places that) are much, much less suspicious of
questioning people on money transfers when the ethnic appearance of the person
matches the destination. Since sending money to family members and friends is
one of the most common uses of WU. For instance a person who looks south asian
sending money to Pakistan. Or a person who looks Filipino sending money to
some small town in Palawan.

------
tartoran
I think a solution to this is for all the giftcards to add a delay of one week
in order to cash in the points. This way the scammed would be able to get some
money back once they realize it was a scam.

~~~
mynameishere
Or even 24 hours. It seems like a lot of people get off the phone and
immediately realize they've been scammed.

...I'm curious about how many people however, are totally fooled by the
scammer--everything is very realistic up to a point--but then get to the part
about paying the IRS in...iTunes gift cards. "Like, what?...[click]". 90
percent? 10 percent? Maybe no one.

~~~
tartoran
We are talking about seniors who get scammed here, it looks like it's not as
obvious to them

------
uptown
This seems like as good a place as any to discuss. What steps have you taken
to protect your parents from these and other scams? I'm looking for both
technological and non-technological ideas and any info on what has or hasn't
worked.

~~~
defen
I've told my parents and in-laws (mid 70s) two things (they're cognitively
with-it as far as mid-70s people go, I don't know what advice would work for
people who are losing their mental faculties). The things I told them are:

1) Gift card = scam. Always, 100% of the time. No government agency and no
legitimate company will ask for payment via gift cards, ever. My in-laws
nearly got scammed by "Apple support" calling to say their router had been
hacked and was being used for illegal activity and that they needed to pay
using iTunes gift cards to have "Apple support" "clean out their router".

2) Nothing is immediately urgent. Unless someone is dying in front of you, the
problem can be solved later. Banks, government bureaucracies, lawsuits, etc
all work via snail mail and lawyers and paperwork, not by calling you up and
telling you you're going to jail and are going to lose all your money unless
you do something immediately.

~~~
grecy
This is great, and I'll add:

3) Never, ever, ever tell anyone anything if they contacted you. If it's the
bank calling, or the government, or insurance, or the power company, or anyone
else, say "Thanks, I'll call you back". Hang up the phone, wait an hour then
find the phone number yourself (look on your bank card or whatever) and
initiate contact with the company.

Same goes for emails. DON'T click links in emails. Delete the email. Wait an
hour or two then research the phone number to call and initiate contact.

I will never even have a phone conversation with someone that called me (other
than friends, of course)

~~~
wolco
You could just use thunderbird as your email client and don't click the links
in the emails. No 2 hour wait required.

Unless you are in England I don't believe they can hold up your line for
minutes after you hang up.

------
fortran77
Target was too lazy to check all the gift cards to see if they were redeemed
when he called them. 4 out of 6 weren't. That's outrageous. Target should be
on the hook for any unredeemed cards from the time he called to report the
scam.

BTW: I recommend Maria Konnikova's book "The Confidence Game"

[https://www.amazon.com/Confidence-Game-Fall-Every-
Time/dp/01...](https://www.amazon.com/Confidence-Game-Fall-Every-
Time/dp/0143109871)

------
pain_perdu
My friend's 68 year old mother lost $118,000 to a similar scam:
[https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/local/consumer-alert-
ocean...](https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/local/consumer-alert-oceanside-
woman-loses-119k-in-gift-card-scam/509-7478ed04-28c6-44a1-9488-adaed158e646)

Fortunately, her daughter was able to recoup the funds from the banks.

~~~
missedthecue
Unreal. What is the thought process through which one thinks it is perfectly
fine and reasonable to buy 6 figures in gift cards from a department store.

------
kirillcool
Retail stores make tons of money on gift cards - specifically, when people
don't use the balance or lose them. See
[https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/10/3-billion-of-gift-cards-
go-u...](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/10/3-billion-of-gift-cards-go-unused-
each-year-dont-let-them-go-to-waste.html). It's like the stores are
essentially minting their own money at this point. They have zero incentive to
put "checks and balances" in place, unless they start losing money on it from
some king of federal penalties tied to cases like the one in the article.

------
rdiddly
Whether you're dealing with actual law enforcement or someone pretending, the
procedure is the same: Say nothing, tell your lawyer and wait patiently to be
arrested. Assuming it's real, it's the action of a court, and court
proceedings are routine, slow, procedural, and consist of paperwork. And
somebody has to show up physically with a warrant. For chrissakes, make them
work a little for it. If they can cow you without even getting up from their
chair, you're making it too easy. This just happens to deflect scammers too.

------
umvi
What kinds of people are running these scams? Are they just normal Indians
that think they are playing "Robin Hood" with the rich Americans? I would like
to see "a day in the life of an Indian scammer"... are these scammers poor
and/or desperate? Are they desensitized psychopaths? Are they mainly teenagers
who think it is a game? Are they adults who are fully aware of how criminal
their acts are?

~~~
zevyoura
There's a great episode of the podcast "Reply All" which digs into some of
these questions: [https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-
all/6nh3wk/](https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/6nh3wk/)

------
mathrawka
After an aunt of mine got scammed just like this, but to a lower tune of
money, I got so sick of this happening to vulnerable people. I went ahead and
made an app and put it on her phone.

The other apps and services out there operate on a blacklist model. They block
calls they know to be bad. My app turns that around and operates on a
whitelist model.

That being said, I had to help my aunt out some in getting it working, but now
I am confident that she won't be scammed again.

Despite all the normal warnings we give our elders, in the heat of the moment,
the scammers know how to take advantage of them. The best thing is to not
allow them to ring their phone.

If anyone cares, my app is in the app stores, and available 100% free for
basic usage.

[https://apps.apple.com/us/app/robostopper-block-spam-
calls/i...](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/robostopper-block-spam-
calls/id1468855457)

[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.codeheadla...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.codeheadlabs.robostopper)

~~~
thehashrocket
I know on iOS you can just block any calls from contacts that are not in your
list. It's pretty easy. My phone just won't ring. They'll be sent to voice
mail instead. In my voice mail greeting, it says that I won't listen to the
voice mail, and if they're trying to get in touch with me, hang up and text
me.

~~~
mathrawka
Yeah, that is great that iOS did that! They released that last summer I think.

There are times that you do want anyone to call you, or you don't even want
unknown callers to leave a voicemail.

My friend's mother would freak out with every little thing always, including
the voicemails from robotic voices saying their SSN will be invalid unless
they call back at some weird number.

So my friend got the app on her mother's phone and set it to the strictest
mode, and her mom hasn't freaked out anymore. This only works because she uses
her phone for talking with family members and a few doctor offices.

~~~
thehashrocket
My mom is the same way, she has really bad anxiety and things just really
bother her or she obsesses over them.

------
Gunax
How about not redeeming gift cards for 24 hours?

Basically gift cards are unspendable the same day they are purchased, giving
people q day to cancel.

I would think most legitimate gift cards are not spent the same day they are
purchased.

~~~
paultopia
this seems like a very sensible idea, and easy to implement via legislation---
make the companies liable for all losses if they violate

------
chiph
Dad got taken for $300 from the fake "Microsoft Support" people. And then had
to pay a local firm to fix & remove all the stuff they changed when he allowed
them remote access.

He was a smart man. But as he got older he would lose patience with websites
and just click on anything .. ANYTHING to get the popups to go away. Which had
the inevitable result.

This is despite me telling him not to do that. And if his computer started
acting up, just mail it to me and I'd reload it for him. But he didn't want to
"be a bother" and his pride meant he would refuse to admit to himself that he
had been taken.

Talk to your parents, be patient and explain it's not a bother, that everyone
eventually gets affected by the scammers. And that you're more than willing to
help them.

------
aclatuts
I feel like it would help a lot to require cashiers or gift cards give
warnings, something like, "gift cards should be bought for people you know and
not as payment." Sort of like the "Don't drink and drive" at liquor stores.

There are no legitimate businesses that take gift card payments. Even
trading/buying gift cards locally is risky because one could take a picture of
the gift card and use the code before the buyer.

~~~
reaperducer
_I feel like it would help a lot to require cashiers or gift cards give
warnings, something like, "gift cards should be bought for people you know and
not as payment."_

Apple does this at its stores. I bought a gift card there just before the
pandemic, and the clerk read me disclaimer text about scammers and gift cards,
and then I had to sign the statement on his iPhone before I could pay.

------
paultopia
Psychology aside, I find it really difficult to understand how someone
rationalizes to themselves the idea that some government official calling them
wants gift cards to pay their fine, or restitution, or any other legitimate
payment. I mean, I wish I could pay my taxes in gift cards---you can often buy
them at a discount!

Maybe they convince themselves that the supposed law enforcement officer is
actually asking for a bribe?

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
For many immigrants, it seems quite probable that they came from countries
where bribery is totally normal every day behavior, so it is plausible that it
might not be much of a stretch for them.

------
golem14
[https://egbg.home.xs4all.nl/counterscript.html](https://egbg.home.xs4all.nl/counterscript.html)
has a decent resource on how to handle these kinds of calls (if you choose to
engage at all). One should really have a printout ready to use at all times.

------
JackFr
When I read about these scams, I always wonder how do the scammers justify
this to themselves? I can’t believe there are that many true sociopaths
completely lacking in empathy. And I believe no one is the bad guy in their
own narrative. Do they convince themselves that they’re not really harming
“rich people who don’t need all that money” or that their own situations are
so extreme that they “need” to steal for their own survival. Or they just
don’t think of stealing as an act with any moral weight.

Or possibly I just have too sanguine view of humanity.

~~~
outworlder
> I always wonder how do the scammers justify this to themselves

Scammers rarely work alone.

For most, it's just a job. One that pays decently well. In most cases the
companies(yes, companies) involved maintain the appearances of a normal call
center, with sales targets and everything.

One such scam company was even providing Japanese language training, so they
could target a market that's less disputed.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Indeed, and commission sales is a heck of a drug. If you need money, and a
company is paying you to sell people a product... you may find yourself
selling products you don't really believe in in a call center, where you know
the person buying isn't really getting a good deal. Only a tiny step further
to actively trying to take their money for a nice bump in your commission
check.

Add that your scam call center employee might have family to feed, and
suddenly scamming the rich senior's retirement fund seems like a minor
transgression...

~~~
outworlder
You do have to have a skewed moral compass – to the point that they will
continue the scam even if the learn the victim has disabilities.

But not as skewed as the ones running the whole operation.

------
joshstrange
I could see myself falling for something like this up to the point I was asked
to buy gift cards. I feel like that would set off all the BS detectors in my
head.

I rarely answer my phone if it's a number I don't know (if it's important it
will come in the mail or they will leave a message) and always call back a
number I lookup online to handle things like CC Fraud calls.

I'm not trying to pretend the manipulation isn't effective or say this person
should have seen through the scam but I just cant see myself buying gift cards
and reading them out over the phone to a "government agent" no matter how much
info they had on me.

I would love to listen to a successful scam phone call (not one where the
person being scammed is trolling them but a real case of getting scammed) to
better understand this.

------
codegeek
I know it is difficult for older/elderly/less tech savvy people but we have to
keep trying to educate whoever we can.

First, if someone asks you to make ANY payment through Gift cards, assume it
is a scam and move on. Hang up. Even if tehy are claiming that you
son/daughter just had an accident or was arrested.

If you do get someone to tell you that your family member is arrested/in an
accident and needs immediately help, tell them to txt you the address of where
they are and you will take care of the rest. Hang up then.

The Govt. never calls and asks for money on phone. They do call sometimes but
will always send paper mail when it comes to money matters.

If you are not sure, hang up and call back yourself after checking the legit
number online through the main website. Never call a number that is from your
voicemail etc.

------
raldi
Just like the post office asks if your package contains anything hazardous,
and the liquor store asks to see ID, you shouldn’t be able to buy a gift card
without being asked, “Did someone you’ve never met tell you to do this?”

------
syshum
My question is how was he even able to do spend that much in one day? did he
spread it out over several accounts or something? Or did he pay cash he had
under his mattresses?

I have all my accounts locked down to a reasonable daily spending limit (far
lower than $3,000) , if I have a large expense then I have to call my credit
union or credit card company to to a temporarily increase on that spending
limit.

Also why do people still answer unknown numbers. I NEVER answer a number that
is not in my phone already. If I don't know you, you can leave a message and I
might call you back maybe (unlikely)

------
thehashrocket
I'm a big fan of kitboga, he's got a twitch and youtube channel. The scammers
constantly ask for gift cards. It's amazing to listen to, especially when you
think about the vulnerable segments of our population who fall for these
scams.

There's websites where you can buy "used" gift cards and I wonder how many of
these are cards from scammers that are now turning them over for cash.

------
alacombe
Happened to me twice in the past couple of weeks (minus the "being scammed"
part). Once claiming to be from the CRA (Canadian's IRS), and once obvious
fake impersonating the IRS on a text app. In both case, the initial message
was a text-to-speech intro which claim to be followed up to an "agent"... I
guess to filter out the large amount of people hanging the call.

------
wmeredith
I want to the script on how to convince a rational thinking person that paying
the government in Target gift cards is a thing. That's nuts.

~~~
phaus
Its not that people are dumb, they usually target the elderly. Senility is a
real thing that can happen to anyone no matter how smart they were when they
were young.

------
neom
If you're in the mood to watch something pretty sad, check this out:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1Bu034pGdc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1Bu034pGdc)
\- This group goes around scam busting, in this instance they end up at the
house of an old lady who has been scammed, it's pretty crazy.

------
acomjean
People want to believe.

I got a voice mail from the IRS literally days after I got a letter from them.
It was hard not to panic, and google the number.. Then

I get chinese phone scam voicemails all the time. Its clever because I can't
understand them, but if I was a Chinese speaker, it would seem like it was for
me.

I like to think I'm savy, but these tales serve as a cautionary guide..

~~~
cortesoft
My solution is to never answer or listen to voicemails from unknown numbers.

The system works, except when my kids are at school and my paranoia makes me
assume every call is about them.

------
aquabeagle
Seems like the FTC or some other government agency could save a lot of people
a lot of heartache with a PSA targeted at elderly people. Commercials during
daytime TV basically saying no one will ever legitimately call you and ask you
to buy gift cards as a method of payment.

------
megablast
> My dad is not a gullible man

I don’t think you get to say that anymore. It is hard to judge the people we
know correctly, but of the many steps, thinking the government would want
payment immediately in gift cards must be the biggest gullible jump.

~~~
tfe
> thinking the government would want payment immediately in gift cards

But this is not what happened.

~~~
megablast
> According to Grubbs, there was only one way out: my dad had to convert the
> money to “government certified gift vouchers,” or gift cards.

Yes it is.

~~~
tfe
My understanding is that the father was paying off a corrupt individual agent,
not making payment to any government agency.

~~~
cmckn
Isn't that just as ridiculous of a notion? A DEA agent shaking down an
identify theft victim for Target gift cards, calling from a government phone?
It's a hell of a yarn, no matter how you read it.

~~~
perl4ever
No? You're saying that someone shouldn't have believed that one kind of scam
was happening, because only the _other_ kind of scam is real. That's a _much_
more subtle distinction than just "payment in gift cards is a scam". It also
doesn't seem like a thing that can really be supported with definitive
evidence or authoritative decree.

------
boyesm
The font on the sign warning about gift card scams seems pretty small. Given
that most of the targets of these sort of scams are people who likely need
reading glasses, these signs and the font should be bigger.

~~~
Keverw
I know some stores also put the warnings on the credit card machine you got to
accept too. I know CVS does this, not sure others but people probably just tap
away. I think they do that even if paying with cash, not sure...

------
malwarebytess
I don't understand how someone could believe a federal agent wanted to be paid
in target gift cards. Why would any official, for any reason, request gift
cards as payment?

Cognitive decline must surely play a role here.

------
spiritplumber
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CsEuJNSnh8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CsEuJNSnh8)

This is a nice and simple scammer-time-waster script.

------
gbraad
Support people like Jim Browning who identified and goes after scammers, and
Kitboga who, although more show, eats there time and does there tactics.

------
zmix
What still escapes me, even after reading the article:

What dots do you need to connect to feel it is totally neccessary to buy gift-
cards for the FBI?

------
neskiredk
Was rudely interupted half-way through the article. Shame i wasnt allowed to
finish reading it due to overlays upon overlays.

------
subaru_shoe
”My dad is not a gullible man” -yes he is. who would think a law enforcement
agency would want target gift cards?

------
dorkwood
Why don't we just ban gift cards? They're a scam by themselves, anyway.

------
ycombonator
These people are from India who say they are from IRS and usually target
seniors.

------
jariel
Someone called me this morning impersonating the financial investigations unit
of the 'Bank of Canada'. Literally. I hung up immediately and called back, it
was a spoofed number.

We need better controls over calling, source numbers etc..

~~~
wizzwizz4
Don't call back. Sometimes it's _not_ a spoofed number – and if it's the
scammers' _actual_ number, you're calling back the scammers. Look up the
number online (preferably after a 1–2 hour wait, because sometimes they can
keep your phone connected after you hang up, so new calls just go straight to
them).

------
sylvainr65
Greet post, thanks!

------
electro_blah
Shout-out to scambaiters like Kitboga, ScammerRevolts, Jim Browning and
Lewis's Tech. you can find their videos on YouTube. jim browning recently
closed down one of the scam call centers with the help of Karl Rock (popular
vloger in India) and ofc Indian police. they also arrested the owner.

------
downshun
Shoot the scammers

------
throwaway0a5e
Leveraging these sorts of "I or someone in proximity to me did something dumb"
stories into clicks/likes/virtue points just rubs me the wrong way. If I want
to hear about how your grandma got phone scammed by Nigerian princes or how
your coworker fell off a ladder because he neglected to follow safety proceure
I want to hear it from someone with relevant professional experience and
qualifications on the matter, not some internet rando who's looking to pimp
out others misfortune for clicks. IMO that just adds insult to injury.

And since I know this is an unwelcome opinion here would anyone care to tell
me why I'm so wrong or why they disagree?

