
Study suggests that the “brain training” industry may be a placebo - Aelinsaar
http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/06/billion-dollar-brain-training-industry-a-sham-nothing-but-placebo-study-suggests/
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serg_chernata
Maybe it's just me, but I've always thought that being "smart" has everything
to do with having a wealth of information and being able to draw connections
between various facts and ideas.

Repeatedly solving a simple puzzle only makes you good at repeatedly solving a
simple puzzle.

~~~
ProAm
If most people solve a problem by going from: A -> B -> C

'Smart' people will consistently go straight to: A -> C

It different than just having access to information, speed and how it's
processed makes a significant difference.

~~~
dragonwriter
> If most people solve a problem by going from: A -> B -> C

> 'Smart' people will consistently go straight to: A -> C

Cutting out intermediate steps in a chain of analysis is more typical of
people with applicable, domain-specific expertise than general smarts. Being
smart isn't the same as being an expert.

General smarts is reflected more in a reduction in the average number of dead-
end side paths pursued before making the connection from A -> B and again
before making the one from B -> C.

~~~
ProAm
Im not talking about being an expert, Im talking about intelligence.
Intelligent people tend to 'see the forest through the trees' on a grander
scale than average or unintelligent people (you can tell Im less than
intelligent by my over use of bad analogies) . They don't need to go A -> B
because they already know that A -> C is correct. It's a lousy example because
everyone here is looking at it like its a procedural problem being solved and
it's not. It's about individuals having greater cognitive ability.

~~~
dragonwriter
I know what you are talking about intelligence, I'm disagreeing with your
description and saying it doesn't capture the advantage intelligence provides,
but more accurately captured what expertise provides. Now, I'm not clear
whether it's just a bad articulation of what you are trying to illustrate or
if your underlying concept is wrong, but your description doesn't, IMO,
accurately portray the difference that intelligence creates.

~~~
ProAm
Its the most generic explanation I can use in the shortest amount of text that
generally gets the point across. It is a lousy example. It's obvious when
people are smart/intelligent and also obvious when the are not, I believe its
largely genetic and out of people's control so discussing it or creating
websites to better your 'IQ' are mostly a waste of time.

~~~
dragonwriter
I don't think it's obvious at all, and I think people often mistake a number
of other things in others (philosophical agreement, expertise in a domain,
certain social skills, among others) for general intelligence.

There's also considerable evidence, IIRC, that, while the upper limit a person
can reach in intelligence is genetic, that environmental factors play
significant roles in both how closely that limit will ever be approached and
how well/long what is achieved will be maintained.

~~~
ProAm
Well we'll just agree to disagree on this one :) At the end of the day though
it doesn't matter if either one of us is correct, nothing really changes
either way.

------
bjourne
Even if you can't "train your brain" what you can train is your ability to
focus at a task. For example, if you play chess you probably do not "get
smarter." All you get is better at visualizing future board positions and
maybe you learn some general strategy and opening theory. But 99% of chess is
raw calculation.

Most people when they begin playing can't stand games longer than fifteen
minutes or so. They have not trained their brains to focus over extended
periods of times. But the more you play, the better you become at sitting
still and concentrating on the position on the board. Eventually after years
of practice, you'll be able to play games where both players have 120
minutes+increment and use your time without getting bored.

Replace chess with any other brain teaser, like a quiz or an iq test. If you
can sit and stare at the same problem uninterrupted for hours trying to work
out a solution, then you will condition your brain to be able to do just that.

I firmly believe that is useful in all parts of life. Random example, you are
thinking about divorcing your wife. Now if you are able to spend several hours
analyzing the possible ramifications of that decision you will be better of
than if you can only think about it for twenty minutes without losing your
train of thought.

So I don't think it is all placebo. Ability to concentrate and perseverance
through difficulties are two very important skills to have.

~~~
ss248
It's not only chess, meditation, for example, works on the same principles.

------
TheSisb2
I've read of some people who were finally set free after a long stretch in
solitary confinement, and many of them attributed the preservation of their
sanity to simple math or word exercises. I believe one would just count
exponents of two as far as he could go and another would try remembering every
word in every language they knew.

Not sure of similarities to brain training games, but I would bet there is
something there.

~~~
executesorder66
You just gave me an interesting idea. Manually writing down my vocabulary
(grouped into passive and active) for every language I know. Counting up the
results and comparing would be rather interesting.

After that diffing it with a dictionary file for each language to see the
gaps.

This will probably take forever, but it could be worth the time.

------
CharlesMerriam2
This study argues that people recruited to use Brain Training score higher on
fluid intelligence than people recruited to participate in a study for a
reward. That is, Brain Training works for people who believe it works.

So, shouldn't it be used by people who believe it works?

~~~
jerf
I think that's a reasonable question. The answer is that there are much
cheaper ways to obtain the placebo effect here than to give these companies
your money.

I also guess without immediate proof that the placebo effect is likely to be
temporary and represent no real, _persistent_ change to intelligence at
all.... another reason to not give them your money. There are cheaper and much
more entertaining ways to obtain "no change to your intelligence".

~~~
ladon86
> The answer is that there are much cheaper ways to obtain the placebo effect
> here than to give these companies your money.

There _might_ be cheaper ways, but paying money has an impact too. That's why
more expensive painkillers often work better than generic ones, despite having
identical ingredients [1].

[1]
[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080304173339.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080304173339.htm)

------
matznerd
What really matters is cross-over. Does the skill you are training have
application to what is being simulated? It's kind of like you get what you
measure, in that you get what you train. For example, through training head-
to-head in math based games where speed is important, I have noticed that I am
much more able to do quick calculations on checks more easily. There is a game
in Elevate where you are shown avatars of people then told information about
them and their names. You have to remember what they look like and basic
information about them through various rounds and comparisons to the other
players. I have noticed that when I play that game frequently, it helps with
memorizing names of people. Dual-n-back is said to help increase working
memory and I believe it because in that game you are having to constantly keep
in your head the last auditory and visual records at the same time and
integrate new information with them. I am annoyed by people constantly saying
this type of training does not work...

------
gabe_smith
At least to me, it seems like doing repetitive puzzles isn't likely to do much
more than make you good at that type of puzzle, rather than building actual
problem-solving skills. I used to play these games with pretty little actual
impact outside of my score...

In math and logic, I've found a pretty great resource in
[https://brilliant.org/](https://brilliant.org/) with many quizzes and wikis
that focus on the underlying connections and general problem-solving
approaches, which has made me better at solving actual problems.

------
ultramancool
I seem to remember studies from a few years back showing Lumosity as less
effective than World of Warcraft at "brain training". At least WoW can engage
a few social and competitive aspects rather than just mindless puzzle solving.

CBC's Marketplace also did a show about this, pretty much crapping on the
evidence for the whole thing:

[http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/episodes/2014-2015/brain-
train...](http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/episodes/2014-2015/brain-training-
mind-games)

------
andriesm
"Dual N-Back" remains one of the best - it may be the only one that really
works, unlike the bulk of other brain games that truly are scams.

This one has extensive research literature, and many free/ad-supported and
cheap ones on android and iPhone app-stores.

For a critical discussion of the research see: [https://www.quora.com/How-
does-dual-n-back-actually-increase...](https://www.quora.com/How-does-dual-n-
back-actually-increase-IQ)

It seems to be one of the best if you interested in this sort of thing.

Claims include: improved working memory, improved executive functioning (great
for ADHD/ADD), improved emotional control, self control and regulation,
_minor_ bump in IQ.

~~~
fizzbatter
Can someone explain the downvote? Please don't downvote without explanation,
i've got no idea if this persons claims are suspicious or false or etc.

 __edit __: Also, to this thread 's OP; Doesn't your link's accepted answer
claim n-back doesn't work? There is critical discussion there sure, but the
consensus seems to be that it doesn't work. No?

~~~
dragonwriter
> Please don't downvote without explanation,

Downvotes exist to improve the signal to noise ratio on HN: please _do_ ,
generally, downvote without explanation. If something is productive and worth
discussing, that's a sign that its not worth a downvote.

~~~
fizzbatter
Hmm, i guess i just don't understand the downvote though. Ie, clearly the
person who downvoted knows something i don't. I'd like to understand that!

It seems the person downvoting would rather me not view it (as it's not
"constructive"), but i can view it.. and i am, yet how am i to know why the
downvote was given? Is the author lying? Is it a spam link? Is the author
wrong? etcetc

------
jrockway
Yeah, the human body seems to be very good at doing the minimum required to
meet the provided training stimulus. Ride a bike fast, you get better at
riding a bike fast.

I started doing crossword puzzles a few months ago. Mainly I've gotten better
at doing crossword puzzles. When I started, I had to think about each clue,
but now I know the common words that always show up and don't even have to
read the clues to get those. Meanwhile, as I never write about "MDs" or the
"EPA", this has had no useful impact on my life.

~~~
sliverstorm
Right, which is why training specificity is a thing. You can train different
than you play/compete, but you have to target very carefully, especially as
you progress.

------
zizzles
The only real "brain training" is reading, learning practical and technical
skills, and perhaps living a healthy lifestyle.

Other than that, forget it. Brain power and being a quick-witted genius is all
about GENETICS (like most things in this life)

~~~
eagsalazar2
Couldn't disagree more. I guess intelligence might be an exception but most
outcomes in life are not about genetics but are about circumstance, passion,
and hard work.

~~~
Someone1234
That's a rather strawman response. You say you "couldn't disagree more" then
state a position that the person you're replying to never stated they hold
(about life outcomes).

They were talking about cognitive decline and "brain power," not life outcomes
as you seem to think.

~~~
eagsalazar2
(like most things in this life) doesn't imply to you they are extending this
POV beyond the discussion of brain power?

------
Madmallard
I've had sharpness and focus improvements taking energy metabolism
supplements. Could be that I'm deficient here or that it could also help
others.

CoQ10, Nicotinamide Riboside, L-Carnitine, Magnesium Malate, B complex,
N-Acetyl Cysteine

In terms of just being smarter and quicker to learn I'm not really sure that
seems to be a combination of experience and natural factors. The experience
part you can obviously change but the other one who knows.

~~~
sliverstorm
I think in general if a supplement has a positive result on health/cognition,
that means you were deficient. CoQ10, for example, is produced by your body.
You would think then, it would produce as much as you need.

------
hmahncke
This research article and the arstechnica commentary are examples of exactly
the overreach that they aim to criticize.

A number of large-scale multi-site randomized controlled trials have shown
that specific types of brain training generalize to untrained measures of
cognitive function and real-world activities. Here's two examples:

ACTIVE:
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934012/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934012/)

IMPACT:
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4169294/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4169294/)

Some brain training works, and some doesn't. Of the ones that work, some show
certain types of benefits; and others show other types of benefits. Throwing
the whole field out is like saying "laetrile doesn't treat cancer, so no
molecules treat cancer."

disclosure: I was an investigator on IMPACT; and I work at a brain training
company (Posit Science)

------
bunkydoo
Well this doesn't really come as a huge surprise. these brain training apps
seem to target logical repetitive tasks that would only train your brain to be
better at doing just that - logical repetitive tasks. I do however think it is
very possible to train the brain, it just hasn't been put in the form of an
app or autonomous computer software yet.

------
nxzero
An interesting thing about placebos is that all placebos are not equal, which
to me calls into question what a placebos really is.

------
gtrubetskoy
Unlike "brain training", good old "learning" and "education" are definitely
_not_ placebos.

~~~
1ris
Learning a language might increase your overall intelligence, but mostly you
"just" learn a language - like solving puzzles makes you better at solving
these specific puzzles.

------
GoToRO
"brain training" industry may be a placebo but brain training is real. I have
yet to understand why people think that you can have a very good brain if you
don't train. In sports it's a given: if you want to run fast, you have to
train, you have to eat right, you have to sleep rigth, you have to take breaks
to not destroy your body.

But somehow people that work with their brain think that the brain, the organ,
does not work like the rest of the body and that you are smart no matter what
an so on. You are smart if you trained, if you sleep right, if you eat right
and in general if you take care of yourself.

People say "it's just a puzzle". It's like a football player would say "why do
I have to do squats?! I never have to do one while I play". Sure, at some
point the puzzle becomes too easy. Thats why they do squats with weights.

~~~
chrisfosterelli
Keeping your brain fit is important, and the study isn't arguing that. The way
that these games do it is not useful.

Just liking training running will make you good at running, training those
puzzles will make you good at... those puzzles. That's not what those game
companies sell it as, people want better general intelligence and instead they
are just getting really good at matching shapes or solving crosswords.

In your football example, a squat is full body exercise that strengthens
numerous different muscle groups. These "brain training games" are not full
mind exercises.

------
Cacti
I thought it was well-proven a year or two ago that these apps/offers/classes
were a scam?

~~~
c3534l
It was. And at any rate claiming your app is scientifically proven or whatever
was a lie from the beginning.

------
Hondor
Chewing gum can also increase intelligence. So it's easy to see that the
effect of games can be hard to isolate from other factors.

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19356310](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19356310)

------
dredmorbius
This has been both obvious and revalidated numerous times.

I'd like to know why public broadcasters, particularly PBS and NPR in the US,
aren't called to task for advertising this crap heavily during their
sponsoship drives.

Associating yourself with crap spreads the stains.

------
kingkawn
Isn't the point of brain training sort of to intentionally induce placebo?

~~~
tmalsburg2
No. A placebo effect is fleeting but training is supposed to have long-term
effects.

~~~
kingkawn
If a placebo is an effect that requires no training, being able to induce it
would seem superior to training.

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davycro
Studies show that surgeons who play first person shooter video games are
faster and better with laproscopic and robotic procedures. Does that not count
as brain training?

~~~
JulianMorrison
Seriously, all training is brain training, if it isn't weightlifting. What
else are you gonna train?

~~~
minikites
Exercise is great for cognitive development/maintenance and weight training in
particular involves more math than an outsider may realize so even that is
brain training.

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elcapitan
Brain suggests that the "study" industry might be a placebo.

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mattfrommars
I find N Back training to be actually effective from personal experience.

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BurningFrog
The intelligence is all in my mind?

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arkj
The funny part is why does the placebo work? I know, there you go again....

