
Apple Said to Fire Maps Manager After Flaws Hurt iPhone 5 - tatsuke95
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-27/apple-said-to-fire-maps-manager-after-flaws-hurt-iphone-5-debut.html
======
mey
My take from the outside. Senior management decided to ship an incomplete
project, and this manager is taking the fall. They could have evaluated the
offering, made the hard decisions that they shouldn't remove Google Maps yet,
and delayed the release.

Thing is, there wasn't much interesting meat on the iPhone 5 release, so I'm
sure they were scrambling for any sort of "feature" to pad out the release.

~~~
mdasen
Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure how much better Apple could have made
Maps before launching it. The thing that gets me is that I can only view
driving directions fully zoomed out or fully in (rather than being able to
zoom in and out). However, in terms of map accuracy, their data is coming from
TomTom/Tele Atlas. Google's data is better. Not only that, but Google has been
working hard on local search. Apple simply doesn't have that data. I've really
yet to hear how Apple could have launched a better product. Google has been
getting data for many years now and when Google Maps launched, it didn't have
nearly as complete data. As users used it, data improved. Apple has less
chance for improvement because Apple doesn't do local search and non-phone
maps in the way that Google does.

It's why I think Apple should make a web interface to provide an easy way for
people to add businesses and make corrections via their browser.

I mean, I vaguely remember when Google Maps switched from Navteq to Tele Atlas
for a while and users disliked the Tele Atlas data. However, if you don't own
your own mapping data, you need to buy it from someone selling. Given Nokia's
ownership of Navteq, it seems unlikely that Apple would have gotten that data.

Other than improving the data over time, what else was egregiously wrong? On
the data side, I think it takes time with the app being used by the public to
correct that. If they were to make the hard decision not to ship Apple Maps,
would the data be in pretty much the same situation a year later?

~~~
mootothemax
_Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure how much better Apple could have made
Maps before launching it._

I stopped trying to use Apple Maps here in Warsaw, Poland, simply because they
get so many of the basics wrong.

Any official document lists my street name as _Skorochód-Majewskiego_. Even
Nokia's new offering can find it. Apple though? Nope, not even anything in the
autocomplete list. The only match occurs if you type in the full _Walentego
Skorochód-Majewskiego_. This is true for many streets here. So on that level,
their offering is useless.

There were loads of other bizarre issues at launch - loads of parks had their
names written in what looked like Chinese characters. Out of sheer annoyance,
I went through and marked them all, not expecting much, and sure enough, three
weeks later, the names started to clear up.

And this is without going into how obscenely ridiculous it was to see Warsaw's
main airport being marked with the German word "Flughafen" in its title.

~~~
mikeryan
_Even Nokia's new offering can find it. Apple though? Nope._

Nokia owns Navteq, which is one of the premier providers of GIS data. They're
actually better positioned then Apple in this space.

~~~
mootothemax
_Nokia owns Navteq, which is one of the premier providers of GIS data. They're
actually better positioned then Apple in this space._

I'm not sure that the data's to blame. For comparison, I've just given CoPilot
Live a try with a couple of other streets (Korotyńskiego and Dickensa to be
precise), and the UI presented them to without any difficulties.

These aren't new streets, they're on every map out there, and I'm convinced
that this is a programming issue of not handling the data correctly. It's not
even a case of doing cleverness with letters such as ń or ó - it's a complete
failure altogether.

------
frogpelt
Apple is a victim of its own success and its marketing of that success.

Google doesn't try to make every product they announce seem like the greatest
innovation since the wheel lost its corners.

Apple does. They release a video of Jonny Ive talking about how Apple had to
"rethink everything" to produce their latest gadget or idea.

This causes the average consumer to be far less forgiving of Apple's mistakes
or shortfalls.

I love my Apple products but they are not flawless and there are many other
products on the market that do many things better or just as well as my Apple
products do them. I am not delusional.

~~~
dakrisht
I love Jony Ive but I'm getting sick and tired of those videos, the same shit
over and over again.

I agree with your comments - Apple is definitely a victim of its own success.

Recently, Apple products have not been as innovative as before (mainly just
refreshed and updated product after product) and while I love Apple products,
they're just running out of steam.

iPhone 5S in June? What on earth are they going to update it with? An A6X and
Siri 2.0? They're out of ideas.

~~~
rahoulb
But this is the same plan Apple has followed for over ten years - the plan
that's taken them from "Apple is dying" to "Apple is the 800lb gorilla".

Compare an iPod Classic to the original iPod - it's just an iteration on the
same design.

Compare a MacBook Pro to a TiPowerBook - it's just an iteration on the same
design.

Compare an iPhone 5 to an iPhone 1 - it's just an iteration on the same
design.

Apple's innovation comes when they enter a new market (and the innovation is
in packaging existing features together in a way that makes you wonder why no-
one did it that way before). They don't really do major revisions of existing
product lines - not since they scrapped the plastic Macs.

EDIT: just thought of the exception: the small iPods (Nano and Shuffle) - they
don't really seem to know what to do with those.

------
jarjoura
Richard was in charge of the entire Maps project (client and server). His
decisions were mostly pressure from Forstall, but that's how things were
always done under that organization. Apple's magic always seems to fall out of
the chaos from it all, and client side, the app is worlds better than anything
else out there. Proof that formula still works well client-side.

It's the data everyone is upset about and it can't be fixed under the same
chaotic management style that Richard and Forstall were in charge of.

Sad really, Richard was a good guy that simply took the fallout that
executives are using to brighten Apple's image. Plus I assume it was a mutual
departure as Richard was also in charge of several other iOS groups that he
would have lost during the recent reshuffle.

~~~
taligent
I think you are spot on about the reason for change in management.

What Apple has needed and needs more in the future is partnerships. It is the
ONLY real failure of the entire Maps project. There are plenty of data
providers around the world who Google relies on for mapping data that Apple
simply never approached before launch but have started to reach out to now.

I suspect you're going to see a rapid improvement in the quality of the data
over this coming year.

~~~
yellowbkpk
While it's true that there are "plenty" of map data providers, there are _very
few_ that deal with wide swaths of the world. Navteq and TeleAtlas were the
go-to providers for worldwide coverage, but you've seen what TeleAtlas data
looks like and Navteq isn't going to sell their data to Apple for any amount
of money with Microsoft (via Bing) and Nokia backing them.

No, the magic is that there are tens of thousands of excellent data sources
around the world. Google has spent the time and money pulling those data
sources together into the best geographic database in the world.

Sure, Apple can reach out to regional data providers and try to merge the data
into their own dataset (which is what they have done so far -- look at the
legal notices for the Maps app to see all the sources they've got so far), but
it takes a lot of time to call up each state, county, province, city all over
the world and ask or buy every last drop of geodata they have. Once they have
it, they have to merge it into their existing data. Google does this with the
help of fancy algorithms and boatloads of volunteers and relatively low-paid
laborers in India. They also have related products to trade for geodata. Want
a discount on your city's Google Apps for Domain? Send us a DVD full of your
land records and we'll give it to you for free! Already have Google Apps? How
about a free license to Google Earth Enterprise?

Bottom line: Google has spent the time and built the technology to beat Apple
to the geodata punch. Google is at least 3 years ahead of Apple and Apple
can't catch up with money alone: dealing with governments (for their data)
will simply take time.

------
georgemcbay
Seems like a good old fashioned scapegoating. The problem with Apple Maps is
entirely at the marketing and corporate decision making level.

I was an employee at Vicinity Corp (the first provider of Yahoo Maps back in
the olden days) and can tell you from experience that good mapping software
(and accumulation of good map data) is an extremely difficult problem.

Apple Maps is actually quite decent if you view it as a 1.0 product. Anyone
expecting it to be truly competitive with Google Maps on the first go needs to
reread Joel Spolsky's old essay on the 10 year rule for good software.

The failure of Apple Maps is that the execs made the decision to replace a
superior product with it while simultaneously messaging that the new software
was actually superior to the old one, when it clearly wasn't.

While I know nothing of the real story behind this, I suspect the guy who was
let go here wasn't the guy who made the actual bad decisions.

~~~
rorrr
Agreed, Apple Maps are pretty much 7-8 years behind Google Maps. Money can't
solve their problem. They need to do so much:

1) Build and train huge team to update the maps, stitch imagery, correct
mistakes

2) Build tools for that team

3) Either buy the cutting-edge data, license it, or build it themselves. I
don't see a point of licensing, since they might as well have used Google
Maps.

4) Build the website. A maps app without a web interface is a lot less useful.
They are basically sending their desktop users to their competitor.

5) Rebuild the brand. Right now Apple Maps is a joke, it's synonymous with bad
directions. Nobody takes it seriously.

~~~
michaelt

      I don't see a point of licensing, since they might as 
      well have used Google Maps.
    

Google only release their map data as slippy map tiles - they don't release
the underlying data required to implement turn-by-turn directions.

Navteq and Tomtom will let you do essentially anything with their data for the
right price.

------
tptacek
Bona fide question: if this is some manager "taking the fall" for Maps, why
would it just now be happening? Tim Cook is said to be one of the best
operational managers in the world; surely it's obvious to everyone there that
collecting a scalp over Maps in December 2012 just puts Maps back in the news
cycle during Xmas shopping season?

Personal belief: no discretionary high-level firings of any sort are going to
happen during Xmas shopping season; Xmas is to consumer electronics what
benefits enrollment is to health insurance companies: total operational
lockdown.

~~~
gojomo
Apple staffing decisions at the level of individual projects are pretty deep
"inside baseball" for us technology-folk.

The average Xmas shopper isn't going to notice this; on the off chance they do
notice it won't figure into their iOS6-device purchasing decisions; on the
tiny chance it would affect their decision it might be a positive -- "Apple is
actively cleaning up the mess!".

~~~
tptacek
No shopper cares who Apple fires, but the trade press runs stories about the
firings, and those stories include how the Maps app isn't great, and consumers
_do_ notice that.

~~~
bitcartel
Credit to the Bloomberg reporter.

Aside: Why is that popular Apple bloggers who claim to have inside sources are
never able to break a story?

~~~
tptacek
Maybe it sounds like I'm doubting the veracity of the story. I'm not. Credit
to Bloomberg! What I'm skeptical of is the interpretation on HN, that this guy
is a sacrificial lamb. If they were sacrificing him, they'd have done it
months ago, or they'd do it after the holidays. November-December is bad time
for human sacrifice.

------
RexRollman
In my opinion, this is Apple's attempt to avoid taking responsibility for the
product it approved and shipped. I find it disturbing that Apple will accept
the credit and not the blame.

~~~
taligent
They fired the people responsible, wrote a public apology letter and have
actively promoted third party map apps in the store.

What more exactly do you want them to do commit seppuku ?

~~~
smackfu
Do you really think these guys were the guys who decided to ditch Google Maps
and then sell Apple Maps as better than Google?

~~~
taligent
What exactly is your point ?

The person who decided to ditch Google Maps is dead and the person who tried
to sell Apple Maps as better than Google has already been fired.

~~~
smackfu
My point is that at some point you are firing people just because you can leak
it to the press, which is bad mojo.

------
melling
This story reminds me of Steve Job's take on the difference between a Vice
President and a janitor.

[http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-on-the-
difference-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-on-the-difference-
between-a-vice-president-and-a-janitor-2011-5)

~~~
drzaiusapelord
Jesus is that supposed to be inspiring? It sounds unbelievably dick-ish.

------
allsystemsgo
This manager is being thrown under the bus. Senior management approved the
product and pushed it into production.

~~~
jamesaguilar
Welll . . . it's hard to say. I mean, it's definitely possible that this is
the case. But on the other hand, if the manager was pushing for release and
won senior management over on incomplete or misrepresented data, then it would
make sense to take out the trash.

------
antidaily
Let us have Google Maps back and all is forgiven.

------
amartya916
Not sure if firing the manager is going to help matters. Here are the main
pain points as I see them, purely personal take, feel free to add points or
correct me:

a. No transit data. Recommends apps from the App Store instead. There are a
few good ones (like Transit, from a Montreal based company), but I personally
rely on transit data a lot and any ad hoc solution is not good enough.

b. Missing/Incorrect Data. Specially outside North America.

c. Flyover looks good, but not as useful as StreetView.

d. Search - Yes, better data, transit data etc. are all well and good, but
searching that data is the key. Apple's search is quite terrible. This is
Google's bread and butter and they do such an amazing job that I don't think
Apple can catch up with them. I don't think throwing a ton of money is going
to get them out of this hole.

Again, can't see how firing a manager can even begin to tackle those issues.
Unless that person was actively trying to thwart Apple's efforts.

------
eungyu
My first reaction was "At least give the guy credit for the Flyover feature".
But I just found that the feature came with the acquisition of C3 Technologies
(2011). Looking at other aspects of the Maps app, I have hard time convincing
others there are innovative components that originated from the team.

~~~
jarjoura
The C3 acquisition provided only the raw data. A _lot_ of sleepless nights
were spent turning that data into a major feature of the application.

~~~
eungyu
Thanks for this insider knowledge (I assume you work at A). It feels better to
know that my initial assumptions were incorrect.

------
DannoHung
Is it the manager in charge of the back end or the actual app? Because while
the backend is shit, the app is really great.

~~~
kalleboo
Back end? I thought the only problem was the data. I associate "backend" with
server-side code, not actual raw data.

~~~
taligent
Weird that people are voting you down. I develop backend systems for a living
and also would separate a data problem from a backend problem.

Let's be clear here. Apple has a data problem.

~~~
DannoHung
I develop backend systems too. The data is not separate from the system. No
one gives me a pass when the data is bad.

~~~
smackfu
Even if the data is provided by a third party and you have no control over it?

~~~
Gigablah
You do have some control over it, by choosing which third part(y|ies) you work
with.

------
trendspotter
Bloomberg seems to be the real source. So this is the more import link. But it
was posted elsewhere on HN, too. See:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4837902>

------
basseq
All this is rampant speculation. I'd say it's clearly not because iOS 6 Maps
was met with such criticism: as others have pointed out, they've already fired
Forstall for that (and other issues).

I'd say it was probably a combination of issues that led them to think that it
wasn't a fit.

------
tambourine_man
Didn't he get the Cue? Sorry, lame joke.

I hope Apple doesn't enter this soccer team emulation mode, where by firing
the coach and keeping all else the same is supposed to mean things are
changing.

------
mydpy
In my opinion, it depends on how much responsibility was in the hands of the
manager. If this person failed on those responsibilities, then he deserves to
be let go.

------
gojomo
Map service data quality improves with more users: more problem reports, more
implicit data collection, more incentive for points-of-interest to improve
their own listings.

So we'll know Apple is prioritizing service data quality above all else when
they come out with an Android client, to get the most possible eyes on their
data.

~~~
batiudrami
I don't see why an Android client would work. Android users already have the
best maps experience (aside from Nokia Maps, depending on where you live).

There's no incentive to switch to a worse app - it'd be like when Apple
released a (very substandard) version of Safari on Windows.

~~~
gojomo
If you (and Apple) assume that the Apple Maps app will always be 'worse' than
Google's, then they've already lost. Their sights are too low; they've decided
to accept being a distant 2nd place also-ran in quality and features.

If on the other hand the goal is to have the 'best' mapping app and location
services -- to spend whatever billions are necessary, because it's
strategically necessary for the mobile world -- then they should have an
offering everywhere, showing off whatever they're best at.

ITunes on Windows, especially as a client to Apple's content store and as an
enabler for their mobile devices, is a better analogy than Safari. If Windows
users couldn't have easily used iPods, iPhones, iPads, and the ITunes Store,
Apple could not have achieved their current profitability.

(I believe the same logic applies to Apple Passbook. If its usage is capped at
whatever Apple's device market share is, it won't achieve the ubiquity
necessary for greatest success in the mobile wallet wars.)

~~~
batiudrami
I think you missed my point - more users does equal more data, but there's no
incentive for Android users to instal land use Apple Maps if they already have
Google Maps on their phone. It'd get so few users that it would be a waste of
time.

The introduction of iPod (and iPhone/iPad) compatibility to Windows is
different because at the time, the iPod was by far the best MP3 player - this
just made it usable to more people.

------
JuDue
They just needed to out put the word Beta in there.

------
sami36
is Apple maps problem strictly an international issue or do most people find
it lacking in the US too ?

~~~
saturdaysaint
Not to minimize other people's issues, but in (public transport-poor) Michigan
it's been an _almost_ unmitigated win. The vector-based maps load instantly,
the UI is fantastic, it's beautifully integrated with the OS (in the
lockscreen, with Siri, etc.), and %98 of the POI's and pathfinding are great.
I've run into a handful of bad POI's and/or buggy pathfinding, but many of
those were fixed. There's _no way_ I'd want to go back to iOS 5's maps, and I
imagine most people in suburbia, at least, feel the same way.

~~~
danso
To be fair, google maps has had vector maps but did not get to implement them
in their iOS version.

In any case, Apple is in the Bay Area, where they were presumably testing the
product on a continual basis. There's no excuse to have the metro view be a
shitshow and tell consumers that they're getting a better product

------
ankurpatel
They fired him probably because of this <http://i.imgur.com/vSJTQ.jpg>

