
Space uses neuroscience and AI to help you kick app addiction - arikr
http://youjustneedspace.com/
======
ruytlm
Some previous discussion here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15648746](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15648746)

I agree with the top comment there; it's unsettling to see one company pushing
the disease and the cure at the same time; their other product (Dopamine) is
literally marketed with "Dopamine makes your app addictive." \-
[https://usedopamine.com/](https://usedopamine.com/)

~~~
scotty79
It's like making guns and guns.

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egypturnash
Site: You don't really want to dump Facebook: you just need SPACE.

Me: Ha ha no actually I kinda do wanna dump it and have kept it as arm's
length for its entire existence, and I'm currently dumping Twitter for a
Mastodon instance I run.

Site: "Apps use advanced software tools that shape and control user behavior.
We know because our company, Dopamine Labs, sells it to them."

I suddenly _really_ do not trust this app to do what it says it will, given
that there are two links in this page to their site for their make-your-app-
more-addictive consultancy. Is this app them trying to do some kind of penance
for their work in their day job, or is it actually a stealthy way to try and
_keep_ people stuck in these ad-impression-generating feedback loops?

~~~
tdaltonc
We don't see it as penance; We see it as part of the same mission.

Sometimes, you wish you did something more (or more regularly). The Dopamine
API helps you do that. (go to the gym, pick water over soda, ect)

Sometimes you wish that you did something less. Space helps with that.

They're both tools for making change easier -- for making it easier to be who
you want to be.

~~~
QAPereo
Or maybe you’re hoping to demonstrate how accurately you can push both classes
of buttons, and them license the tech? Or hope to be acquired?

Time will tell, although personally I doubt the efficacy of both apps before I
doubt your intentions. The language used trips my pseudoscience alarm,
although that is just a heuristic. Still, lofty promises in the absence of
commensurate evidence, plus a potential profit motive... oh my.

~~~
tdaltonc
Interesting -- What is it that you doubt? That interactivity can be addictive?
or that the formula for making interactivity addictive can be distilled and
packaged as AI SaaS?

Also, you can check out our case study deck here:
[http://usedopamine.com/assets/pdf/Dopamine%20Labs%20Case%20S...](http://usedopamine.com/assets/pdf/Dopamine%20Labs%20Case%20Studies.pdf)

~~~
QAPereo
I doubt both the veracity of your claims as regards the efficacy of your apps,
and I doubt your stated goals/intentions. As I said, time will tell. I will
say that you’re doing yourself no favors by selling this here. Call it
cynicism, skepticism, or just experience... you need more than a too-slick
pitch and a sketchy product stuffed into a “sciency” skin.

Edit: DoreenMichele’s post should be your bible.

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DoreenMichele
Constructive feedback:

The site is trying way too hard. So is the guy posting in comments here on HN.
It just screams _insecurity._

If you really have a great solution, and maybe you do, you want _other people_
saying the over the top things about you. You should not be the one doing
that.

I like the name, but you need to ditch the addiction language, the
Neuroscience references etc. Come way down to something along the lines of
"Feeling jerked around by social media apps? Get some Space. Our app gives you
a moment of Zen to take a deep breath and decide whether or not you really
want to check FB _again_."

Don't mention Dopamine Labs up front and what it does. That information should
be available, but not emphasized.

If you wrote the copy "yourself" (in house), hire someone to rewrite it. Also,
get someone to coach you a bit about basic PR. Your HN comments are less than
stellar.

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cleandreams
I use Space and I like it. It diminishes the kick of Facebook and Instagram. I
check them less often as a result. I do like esp Instagram and I keep in touch
with friends with Facebook so I do want to use these apps, and this dulling of
the instantaneous gratification aspect via Space is positive. (I never was
anywhere near an extreme user of FB/Instagram.)

The reality is that many people like and dislike social media at the same
time, and the dopamine triggers is an issue for many people. Hence, Space.
Thanks Space developers!

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lerie82
I find it fascinating that people spend so much time on social media, however,
I don't really think you can consider it an addiction. If social media can be
labeled an addiction then can we not also say socializing is addicting and we
should limit our social interactions with people so we don't become addicted
to socializing?

~~~
tdaltonc
One of the critical things about an addiction (maybe _the_ critical thing) is
that you want to stop or cut-back, but you can't, and it's interfering with
you life.

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throwaway010718
"a new app icon that will replace the app you'd like you use less (e.g.
facebook). When you click on the new icon, it will load facebook..."

I had previously thought that iOS prevented an App from launching another App.
IFTTT and Tasker both seem to have limitations because of this. Did Space have
to create a novel work-around ?

[edit]Come to think of it, the URL Scheme of the "app to launch" would have to
be published as part of the Space App in advance. Meaning that I can't use
Space to block arbitrary Apps. Is my understanding correct ?

BTW, I think it is great the founder is replying to questions. Thank you.

~~~
tdaltonc
That's basically right, we use the same system that IFTTT and Tasker use. So
we have to specify the URL schema ahead of time, and we are bound by the 50
app limit. Sometimes we have to spend a bit of time discovering an apps URL
scheme.

On Android, we're a lot less limited and can service all apps. We also have a
programatic way of discovering URL schemes on Android.

------
fogzen
The name Dopamine labs reinforces a popular-science myth that dopamine is
addictive. I want to use this opportunity to point out that this is not
supported by research in psychology/neurobiology and demonstrates an incorrect
understanding of the role dopamine plays in the brain:
[https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-
stray/201701/...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-
stray/201701/no-dopamine-is-not-addictive)

------
3131s
This is like a bad parody. If you are seriously considering downloading
another app to control your app addiction, maybe it's time to just get a dumb
phone or no phone whatsoever.

~~~
jayshua
As the site says, for some people this really isn't an option.

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arikr
Highly recommend the iOS app here. It's free. I use Twitter and Reddit much,
much less after installing Space (free) a few weeks ago.

~~~
tdaltonc
Thanks for the endorsement and the HN post arikr!

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dpflan
I think this is interesting:

"We [Dopamine Labs] use AI and neuroscience to find the perfect moment of zen
to give you. It's the same math that we use to get people addicted to apps,
just run backwards."

~~~
kfreezen2
Maybe, just maybe, they want to get you addicted to that Zen moment. And then
they want to make sure that you can only get that Zen moment on their app.
Third step? $$$?

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tdaltonc
Hi HN, thanks for having us back!

I'm the coFounder and CEO of Dopamine Labs, the company behind Space. Happy to
answer any questions!

~~~
kenning
Pretend I'm a stockholder/investor, what are the benefits of Space to the
bottom line?

~~~
tdaltonc
That's a really great question! A few of our investors actually found us
though Space (Esther Dyson and Howard Morgan among others) -- They got the
"whole mission" stuff before we spoke. I'll assume your one of our other
investors.

We're leading a mission and a movement -- That technology powered by AI and
neural-modeling can "make change easy." That these technologies can make you
whoever you want to be. We're telling people that behavior design should be
respected, but not feared. There are parts of our mission that show up on the
profit side of P&L, and there are those that don't. But the movement we're
creating, the whole story we're realizing will succeed or not as a package.
Without Space, and what it says about who we are and what we're doing, our
hiring pipeline would change radically -- our PR strategy would have to change
radically. By taking the time to communicate the larger vision through
products like Space, the profitable products we make won't be seen as one in a
sea of competitors, it will be accurately seen as the product of a team of
larger mission to "make change easy."

Hope that helps, and I hope I didn't get to "cult leader" for you!

~~~
kenning
OK, i understand. I'm pretty surprised at how jumbled this message came across
here on hn, can't tell if the blame lies heavier on hn cynicism or on a
problematic pitch. Could be because your company is so provocatively named. I
wish I could get to see if this move is treated as a success or failure a year
down the line.

~~~
tdaltonc
We've been on HN a few times. The public reaction (in posts) is always very
cynical and there are some very hateful emails. But we just hired someone who
found us though an HN post and believed in the mission. We always get a lot of
good customer inbounds with each HN post.

When people like you ask the questions like you did, it gives us an
opportunity to get this larger mission statement out where the people who need
it can see it.

Thanks for the question!

I also don't know if this is going to work out (That's Startups!). We're are
being honest and optimistic about technology that everyone else in the
industry is ashamed, underhanded, and small-minded about. I'm betting a few
years (and counting) that this is the right way to be in the world, and the
right way to build a billion dollar company. Consider following us on twitter
to see how to turns out!

~~~
smt88
You should consider whether the cynicism is just HN's personality or whether
your marketing needs a lot of improvement.

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nurettin
This is great, I am already addicted.

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Waterluvian
This entire Dopamine Labs thing looks and feels like a really good parody.

~~~
hellbanner
I agree. Their website boasts "Praised and Feared on (Graphic of news
outlets)"

~~~
tdaltonc
We get a lot of strong reactions to our work. ;)

~~~
hellbanner
Way to dodge the question of parody or not ;)

------
hellbanner
Ok, "App Addiction"? Snapchat isn't heroin.

~~~
tdaltonc
No, but behavioral addictions are a real thing, and (by some measures) they
are much more common than drug addiction. As Technologies get better at
targeting our learning systems, the promise and parol of these technologies is
only going to increase.

------
portlander12345
Can someone explain what it actually does?

~~~
tdaltonc
CoFounder here!

It guides you though designing a new app icon that will replace the app you'd
like you use less (let's say facebook). When you click on the new 'facebook'
icon, it will load facebook . . . but first, it will load a 3-12 second
breathing exercise. That does two things -- 1) it breaks your flow state, so
that you have a minute to ask if this is what you really want to be doing, and
2) weakens the stimulus-->response loop that made you open the app in the
first place.

How do we know how long to make the pause? By monitoring your past engagement
with that app and the other apps you're trying to use less, Space tries to
guess if you're being "deliberate" or "compulsive." Deliberate opens get a
shorter break, compulsive opens got a longer break.

Does that answer your question?

~~~
portlander12345
Yep, thanks!

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cryptozeus
Top 5 star Comments on iphone app store seems totally fake and all start with
same note. Can't trust it

~~~
tdaltonc
I wish I had the time to fake app store reviews.

