
Airline revenue from extra fees increases - petethomas
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/as-airline-revenue-from-extra-fees-increases-so-does-consumer-ire/2017/11/01/6f14e874-bb43-11e7-a908-a3470754bbb9_story.html
======
alsetmusic
The nickel-and-diming of airlines has been clear to me for ages, but I found
what I considered a surprising new low last year. I bought round-trip tickets
but missed my outgoing flight. I booked a one-way trip for later the same day,
reasoning that I would use my original return flight to come home.

Surprise! I found out (at the airport, trying to fly home a few days later)
that because I hadn’t boarded the first flight, the airline had resold my seat
on the return flight. I was not credited for the seat on the return flight
(which was now unavailable to me). I wasn’t even notified that it was
forfeited when my trip was cancelled. Pressed for time, I had to purchase an
additional one-way ticket home.

I understand the motivation to resell an unused seat at flight time in the
event of a no-show. This, however, struck me as a deliberate predatory theft
of my reservation, a sort of loophole to deprive me of my reservation without
recompense. I don’t think a scenario such as this is unforeseen by the airline
(an honest misunderstanding); rather, I think it is exploited.

The airline may have a clause somewhere on their website explaining that the
above is to be expected. That doesn’t make it square for me. The behavior of
the airline was, IMO, unethical. If I ever face a similar scenario in the
future, I will know to communicate explicitly with the airline about my
intention to use my return ticket. However, I shouldn’t have to do so or risk
finding myself stranded away from home.

~~~
robteix
I have a relative who moved to the US a couple of years ago. A one-way ticket
costed _more_ than a round-trip, so he and his family bought roundtrip
tickets. They flew normally but obviously never caught the flight back.

The airline later cancelled his platinum frequent flying status and charged
him with the difference threatening to sue for fraud.

EDIT: typo

~~~
test1235
why would an airline care if the passengers caught their flight or not? The
tickets are already paid for.

~~~
ghaff
Because (in their eyes), you're gaming their fare rules. That said, I don't
know how common this sort of action is. At various times, I've had to change
flight plans and it was cheaper just to burn a booked return leg than pay the
cancelation fee. And I've never had an issue doing so.

------
njarboe
Southwest Airlines does not play these games (the first 2 checked bags are
free and canceling your ticket before the flight gives you a voucher for the
full fare you paid to use in the future). It also does not have fares listed
with the airline ticket search sites. They usually have good fares, decent
service, and on time flights. I try and fly them when ever I can get a direct
flight with them.

I understand why they keep growing and wish other airlines would try their
style. I try to choose companies with friendly business practices, even if it
costs a bit more sometimes.

~~~
waqf
Isn't Southwest the one that just launched obligatory in-air concerts?
[https://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2017/11/hitting-
wro...](https://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2017/11/hitting-wrong-note)

I think I'll give that a miss.

~~~
njarboe
I imagine Southwest will give this a miss also. Seems like a Nashville one-
off. Never seen it myself.

~~~
tallanvor
Unfortunately not just a one-off:
[http://www.npr.org/2017/10/30/560767453/southwest-
airlines-t...](http://www.npr.org/2017/10/30/560767453/southwest-airlines-to-
offer-inflict-live-music-on-select-flights)

------
caseysoftware
The new "basic economy" fares are the ones that piss me off.

For ~16 months, I've been taking the same handful of United flights between
the same locations every few weeks. When they launched "basic economy" they
insisted that they would just lower the price for people who didn't care about
having a carry on, assigned seats, etc.

Not surprisingly, the basic economy fare is what I was paying before and to
get all the "perks" like having a carry on, assigned seating or even having
the miles count towards status, it's an extra $20-30 each way.

They f*d us nicely there.

~~~
KozmoNau7
We hit a nice little trap while booking our tickets for Christmas (Copenhagen
to Stuttgart). The outgoing flight was Lufthansa "Economy Basic", which
includes checked luggage. But the return flight was "Economy Light", which
_doesn 't_ include checked luggage.

Since we would actually like to take our bags home with us, it effectively
added a hidden fee on top of the original price, just so it would show as
"luggage included" in the aggregator.

~~~
dx034
But you surely saw that when you booked? Did you book over some shady website?
Lufthansa.com would've definitely warned you before you booked.

~~~
KozmoNau7
We booked through Google Flights, which only pointed out that checked luggage
_may_ incur extra fees. We only spotted the difference on the return flight
when we actually went to Lufthansa's site to check that everything was in
order.

Both flights were shown as "economy" on Google Flights.

~~~
JshWright
You can't book through Google Flights, it's just a search engine.

~~~
KozmoNau7
Everything was handled though Google Flights, only the final payment page was
Lufthansa. On that page, information about checked luggage was not available,
only the ticket type in very small print. We had to manually look up what each
different ticket type meant, and manually select additional luggage for the
return flight, based on information we gleaned from a completely separate
Google search.

Trust me on this, I went through it only yesterday. Online flight booking is
one huge dark pattern.

~~~
JshWright
Right, so you booked the flights through Luftansa, not Google Flights. Google
Flights helped you search for the flights you wanted, but then linked you to
Luftansa's page to actually book them.

~~~
KozmoNau7
Google Flights labeled the flights as simply "economy", strongly giving the
impression that both flights were on the same class of ticket, instead of
providing a very important detail, namely that the return ticket was a lower
class.

This is very important information when booking a flight, to give your
customers the correct price, and they got it wrong.

~~~
JshWright
If you think Google saw you as the "customer" in that exchange, you're very
mistaken...

~~~
KozmoNau7
The problem with GOOG in a nutshell.

------
chesimov
Travelled in the US earlier this year on 3 regional carriers. I realise this
is only an anecdote, but I was surprised by a number of things:

\- tickets stated as direct included a hidden stop and change of plane.

\- there was an extra charge for a checked bag.

\- the checked bag was promptly lost on my first flight and returned to me
after 5 days.

\- on one united flight, we had to wait on the tarmac for 1hr45 min while a
guy sat each wing of the plane in turn refuelling it with a gas-pump style
hose through a port on the wing. This was because the central rapid-fuelling
system on the plane was broken.

\- interior of aircraft was shabby. In one plane they had retrofitted LED
lighting in the cabin, but it was too narrow and so exposed hull insulation
and other structures in the gap.

\- seats felt much closer together than usual. What on earth do you do if
you're above average height in the US?

\- price! Unbelievably expensive to fly between cities in the US. In SE Asia
or Europe I have travelled between similar sized cities and similar distances
for well under half the price in the US and at shorter notice.

What ever the airlines may tell you in the US, from the perspective of an
outsider, I'm pretty sure they're ripping you off!

Edit: formatting

~~~
greeneggs
The prices are because of the recent big airline mergers (Alaska/Virgin
America 2016, US Air/American '13, United/Continental '10, Delta/Northwest
'09) [1].

United does its heavy maintenance in Beijing, China [2], so some maintenance
issues are inevitable. I find it amazing that their planes even fly, it must
be a huge logistical hassle.

[1] [http://airlines.org/dataset/u-s-airline-mergers-and-
acquisit...](http://airlines.org/dataset/u-s-airline-mergers-and-
acquisitions/)

[2] [https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11/airplane-
maintenance...](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11/airplane-maintenance-
disturbing-truth)

(When this Vanity Fair article was written, 2015, American still did major
maintenance in the US, but apparently not for much longer:
[http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2017/08/25/american-
airli...](http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2017/08/25/american-airlines-
workers-protest-job-outsourcing-in-miami.html) )

------
rchowe
Airlines (in the US, mostly) are incentivized to add these fees for two major
reasons:

1\. Fees are exempt from the 7.5% federal excise tax on airfare. 2\. It makes
the initial fare lower on airfare sites like Kayak, for people who choose the
cheapest route, then they up-sell customers once they've decided.

~~~
dheera
Every so often a flight aggregator (Kayak, Expedia, etc.) shows up. To date
precisely none of them have solved the REAL customer pain point: _show the
actual price I will pay_.

I really wish restaurants and everywhere else would include taxes in their
prices too. I frankly don't care what fraction of my money is going to the
government, all I care is (a) what I pay in total and (b) what I'm getting.

~~~
kbart
EU mandates to show real price (including taxes)[0][1]. From my personal
experience, it works with all major EU-based airlines when booking online. Of
course, if you want extra (travel insurance, priority, luggage etc.) you pay
separately (opt-in), but it's nothing like it was ~10 years ago when you had
to play hide&seek with all these hidden taxes and opt-out extras during the
booking process.

0\. [https://www.out-law.com/en/articles/2015/january/flight-
book...](https://www.out-law.com/en/articles/2015/january/flight-booking-
systems-must-display-final-price-at-first-instance-rules-eu-court/)

1\.
[http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/pric...](http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/pricing-
payments/index_en.htm)

~~~
danmaz74
Yes, this is one space where regulation has really helped, even if sometimes
you still find that the actual price is a bit different from the one you
expected.

------
pxeboot
I find high undisclosed taxes on rental cars and hidden resort fees at hotels
much more unfriendly to consumers than airline fees.

~~~
arnvald
Absolutely! When buying an air ticket, at least on the checkout page I see the
final price I'm paying.

On the contrary, when renting a car a couple of years ago I had following
situation - I booked a car and paid, then I arrived at the airport, and at the
counter I was told:

* 5EUR/day more because I'm below 25yo

* 5EUR/day more because it's a diesel car ("so I don't want diesel" \- "but we have only diesel")

* gas policy is full/empty, so I have to pay for gas in advance; I check the contract and it says I have to pay "market rate", I check online and market rate is 20% less than what they want me to pay, I say this is not market rate, they say it includes surcharge for fueling the car.

In the end I didn't have much choice and rented the car, but the experience
was much worse than buying air tickets.

~~~
ghaff
Fees in general for rental cars are awful. In the US at least there are also
all sorts of taxes, concession fees, high hourly fees if you return at a bit
later time than you picked up, etc. It can all add up to 30% or more of the
total price so you need to make sure you're comparing apples-to-apples when
you make a reservation.

On the plus side, most rental cars don't charge for canceling or missing a
reservation, returning early, or just not showing up--so there's that.

~~~
tombrossman
If you reserve (just book, no need to pay in advance) a popular class of
vehicle in advance the pick-up location will often not have one available so
you get a free upgrade to whichever superior class they do have ready. Also,
look for 'off-airport' locations because these do not assess an airport
surcharge fee. Off-airport locations are even less likely to have popular
classes in stock. Doesn't matter if you just flew in, (remove your airline
luggage tags, try not to be obvious) take a taxi to the location. It will
frequently be cheaper this way. Off-airport locations are often near airports.

As an American living in Europe, I found that some US insurers will issue a
'driver only' policy that covers you while driving rentals in the USA on your
European license. I'm paying $24/year for mine which has generous limits and
is much cheaper than the coverage rental agencies offer.

Also slightly unrelated but don't dare call British Airways to enquire about
changing your flight or you will not be able to check in online and you will
get the worst seats when you show up for your flight. This is true even if you
make no changes, your booking is put in to some kind of frozen state and the
phone agents are unable to reverse this. You must visit the BA desk at an
airport in person to have this corrected. Bizarre, but this was confirmed by
multiple people at BA who I spoke to after having it happen to me.

~~~
ghaff
Off-airport rentals are a good tip to save some money. I confess I very rarely
do it because it's one more hassle after a long flight. The one thing you need
to be careful of is hours as off-airport rental companies often operate on
more conventional business hours.

------
darklajid
As someone who literally _just_ ranted on Twitter (and on their 1990s style,
"/start.tk" issue website) that Turkish Airlines has never once replied to my
messages after losing my bag on the 26th of October: I wish there were a
central, democratic review system for airlines, outing them for all their
faults. Paying for checked in bags is not fun if the bag doesn't arrive.
Fighting for (soon) two weeks to get back what is yours is no fun either.

Any public outrage about airline practices gets my upvote..

(I understand that for certain routes you cannot really choose someone else..)

~~~
selimthegrim
[http://www.airlinequality.com/](http://www.airlinequality.com/)

------
bickfordb
The economy (or even "premium") customer service on most of my recent flights
has been awful. In most other U.S. service industries (restaurants, bars,
etc), the staff is incentivized to serve you and increase sales and get tips.
I've been on many 3-5HR flights where you see a flight attendant at most
twice, and the attendants seem almost required to do the least. It comes
across as if the airline firms are trying to make things as uncomfortable as
possible to upsell to first/business.

~~~
nradov
Flight attendants aren't really there for service. Their primarily
responsibility is supposed to be safety. Serving snacks is just a courtesy.
You can always bring your own, or walk to the galley and ask for something.

~~~
tyingq
They are paid to do both. The customer service side isn't optional.

[https://jobs.aa.com/job/Dallas-Trainee-Flight-Attendant-
TX-7...](https://jobs.aa.com/job/Dallas-Trainee-Flight-Attendant-
TX-75201/439653000/)

------
JumpCrisscross
We’re in a golden age of flying for both airlines and passengers. If you want
1960s style service, first class tickets are cheaper today than the cheapest
tickets were back then.

The reason airlines nickel and dime is Americans’ preference for cheaper
tickets over almost anything else. The bulk of the remaining demand comes from
frequent fliers, who are exempted from most fees, or business travellers, who
are too profitable to risk pissing off.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
The itemization of services isn't the problem. It is the hiding of the fees
that is the problem. What they are doing now is essentially a bait-and-switch.

They should (and should be legally mandated to) be upfront about what they are
going to charge you for, include that information prominently when advertising
tickets and make the fee information available to third-parties so that ticket
shopping sites can offer an accurate comparison of what your total cost will
be.

------
chrisbennet
I sometimes fantasize about having one of these companies as a client and
billing them with fees mirroring the ones they charge i.e. add a fee for
“mandated federal and state taxes” (my income taxes), maybe an “internet
surcharge” and of course a “fuel surcharge”. My biggest expense next year will
be insurance so I’ll definately add an “insurance fee” that in there as well.
I’m getting giddy just thinking about it...

------
megaman22
In recent years, the only decent experiences I've had flying have been with
JetBlue, European national carriers, and WOW.

JetBlue and the European carriers still offer decent service and don't nickel
and dime everything. They let you check a bag or two. The gate and flight
staff are competent and relatively efficient. The aircraft are clean, well-
maintained, and modern. The European carriers even feed you. It's almost as
good as flying was before 2000.

WOW is a cut-rate airline, and they're upfront about it.

The other major carriers are a dumpster fire. I won't even try to fly United
or American or Delta anymore.

~~~
ghaff
JetBlue is definitely one of the better US carriers for those who don't have
status. (I typically fly United but I have relatively high status on them.)

But JetBlue has adopted a lot of the fee structures of the legacy carriers.
They do charge extra for checked luggage now. They have pay for more legroom
seats (although their regular seat pitch isn't bad by economy standards). They
have pay for early boarding. Their change fees have gone up.

------
Scoundreller
I guess this is also a way for airlines to devalue their frequent-flyer points
programs: the bag is no longer included.

Or, in the case of a Canadian airline, Westjet, you get a free checked bag
when you have their premium credit card.

~~~
saryant
Frequent flyers don’t pay bag fees. Airline status comps those fees.

~~~
mseebach
"Airlines" don't collectively do anything. Most airlines' medium tier status
and up generally entitles members to some extra baggage allowance, but eg.
British Airways basic economy has no baggage allowance, including for status
holders.

------
KozmoNau7
Unless you're going away for two weeks or more, cabin luggage really should be
all you need. Pack smart and pack light, think long and hard about which
clothes you're actually going to need. If you're bringing bulky items of
clothing (such as hiking boots), wear them on the plane. Don't bring a bunch
of extra stuff "just in case", odds are you'll be able to buy whatever it is
at your destination.

Most airlines allow 55x40x20cm(-ish) size cabin luggage, _plus_ a so-called
personal item, which can be as big as 40x30x15cm on some airlines, or
described as a purse, a handbag or a slim laptop bag. Sometimes the weight is
included in the cabin luggage allowance, sometimes it's not, so you have to
check the terms for each airline. This will let you bring a bit of extra
luggage, or at least make sure your laptop isn't taking up a bunch of space in
your cabin luggage.

This may seem like a bunch of needless extra work when packing, for saving a
small fee, but it also means you won't have to waste time at the luggage
carousel, and it will be much less hassle if you have to go by taxi or public
transport. And of course your luggage won't be at the mercy of underpaid and
possibly careless luggage workers.

Pack smart, avoid fees and hassle.

~~~
deepGem
When weight is a concern, try not using the carry on bags with wheels. Those
bags themselves weigh about 6-7 lbs and the telescopic handle takes up space
inside the bag. I use the Amazon basics carryon or the more expensive
Patagonia MLC 45L both of which which weigh less than 2.2 lbs and are a breeze
to carry on. It's amazing how much space and time (it's much faster to walk
with these carry on's) you save when you use these. Oh and these provide O(1)
access as they fold like a suitcase and not like a hiking bag which in my view
has a best case o(n) access and worst case o(n^n) access.

~~~
ghaff
I see Patagonia has redone the way the bag opens up and loads. Looks like a
big improvement although I still prefer bags that are basically one big
compartment; I just use my own organizers which are more versatile.

To your basic point, fully agree. I expect that at least some of the carryon
issues are the result of business travelers taking rollaboards for one-night
trips. Like you, I find soft over the shoulder/backpack bags a lot more
versatile as well as being more space efficient. Yes, some people can't easily
carry the weight but that describes a small portion of travelers.

~~~
KozmoNau7
I used a soft messenger-style bag for a long time, but in the end I simply got
fed up with how annoying it was to pack, and how much care I had to take when
packing, in order to avoid discomfort when carrying it.

~~~
ghaff
The older Patagonia was very vertically oriented with a compartment divider
down the middle. I liked it until I decided it just didn't accommodate bulky
items well and wasn't easy to dig things out of. These days I mostly use an
Osprey travel backpack which unzips to a single big compartment and that works
pretty well for me.

I do have rollers on a couple larger pieces of checked luggage but I only use
those a couple times a year.

------
Scoundreller
So, what does a carry-on bag really cost an airline anyway?

Is it reasonable to discourage it because the airline needs to pay the
airports for each bag and the ability to carry non-passenger cargo is reduced
that much?

~~~
tradersam
The airlines cost are based on weight, as that determines the fuel use for the
flight (not including in-flight variances that would also contribute to fuel
costs).

~~~
Scoundreller
Not sure why I my question was just about carry-ons...

For checked bags, what do the departing and arriving airports charge the
airline per-bag for handling?

------
chrismcb
I was once charged a ticket purchasing fee! This was not an online free, it
would have been charged no matter how I purchased the ticket

~~~
dingaling
Easyjet in the UK now have a mandatory £15 'administration fee' for each
booking. There's no way around it.

It would be less galling if they just called it 'Minimum Fare'.

Plus they add a 1% credit card charge!

~~~
koyote
The credit card charge should disappear in January once the new law on banning
credit card charges is in place :)

~~~
whamlastxmas
It's already against their merchant agreements, I have doubts the ban will do
anything.

~~~
sokoloff
Effective Jan 27, 2013, surcharges for credit card transactions became
permitted by the Visa and Mastercard merchant agreements.

------
msheif
Even though they have clauses on their website explaining that your ticket may
be resold, it is still not fair.

------
kwoff
Are airlines or landlords worse nowadays...?

------
dawhizkid
Who checks bags anymore?

~~~
darklajid
Anyone

\- going on a 3+ day vacation

\- having something unwieldy to transport

\- going on a 3+ day business trip that needs shirts, fancy pants and shoes
(or a suit)

For me, carry-on is for a bag with my electronics (laptop, Kindle, headphones)
and necessities for the flight if any. Being able to travel with nothing but a
carry-on bag is a luxury and quite rare for me.

~~~
ghaff
Most people really don't need to though. I just got back from a 2 1/2 week
trip with just (fully compliant) carryon. Yes, once you get into suits (or a
lot of recreational/camera/etc. gear) it gets harder, but I suspect most
people could packa lot lighter.

~~~
KozmoNau7
I saw people repacking bags at Copenhagen airport the last time I went to
Germany (start of September), so they could fit everything while still barely
scraping in below the weight limit. Multiple heavy jackets and winter boots.
For southern Germany in the late summer. It was 30 degrees C in Stuttgart when
we landed. Some people...

~~~
whamlastxmas
To be fair, you don't know when they left, or how long they were gone.

~~~
KozmoNau7
No, of course not. To my untrained eye, they looked like tourists.

