
Amazon Is Kicking All Unauthorized Apple Refurbishers Off Amazon Marketplace - CharlesW
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/bjexb5/amazon-is-kicking-all-unauthorized-apple-refurbishers-off-the-site
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ianlevesque
I wonder if this means you can now buy an Apple charger/cable/whatever without
a 50/50 shot of a commingled counterfeit. Can we get this for all brands
please?

~~~
Scoundreller
Just buy the mFI ones.

~~~
reaperducer
For those of us not up on the nuances of Amazon's supply chain, please explain
how that stops a counterfeiter from slapping an mFI sticker on a counterfeit
box.

~~~
giarc
I just stick to buying Amazon Basics or from the Anker store.

~~~
covercash
I’ve replaced all of my family’s iOS chargers and cables with Anker — far more
durable than Apple’s!

I still mostly stick with Apple products when it comes to notebook power,
especially for the 15” MBP.

~~~
therein
Fun fact -- back when I worked at Apple as a Software Engineer, we used Anker
cables. Not on occasion either, primarily.

In fact, our team time after time received a huge shipments of Anker cables
(think 1000-2000 cables in their retail boxes)

~~~
ksec
So internally Apple knew their cables wasn't as good as Anker?

~~~
therein
At least among their software engineers, very much so.

If Anker got a cent for each time a cable of theirs got plugged into an iPhone
prototype that never left the HQ, they'd still be a huge company.

~~~
ksec
Isn't that the biggest failure of Apple? I think the original Anker Powerline
cable were good, but not great. The Powerline II was perfect. And it was only
a small changes in material and design, it doesn't even break. ( The Powerline
has slightly longer "tail" at the end of the plug so it doesn't take as much
strain )

If Apple Engineers are not using its own Apple products than there is
something very wrong.

------
Kadin
Article seems a bit unclear. Are they blocking third-parties from selling
_used_ Apple products? There are a ton of independent people (including just
random individuals) selling used machines.

It keeps referring to _refurbished_ machines, which is a fairly big
distinction, at least on the Amazon platform.

Refurbished machines are sold as primary items; they have an ASIN and are
assumed to be basically fungible goods as long as the specs are the same.

Used machines are the ones you find through the "Available from these sellers"
subpage on an item (which will often be out of stock, once the machine isn't
being sold as new). There you have to list the condition, and many are shipped
directly from seller to buyer without going through Amazon at all.

I am wondering if what Amazon is doing is saying that, unless you are Apple,
you cannot call a machine "refurbished", only "used". That seems...
aggressive, but not completely out of line. It seems like it's letting Apple
take ownership of the term "refurbished", when they should really
differentiate themselves by saying "Factory Refurbished" or "Apple
Refurbished" or something, but it wouldn't necessarily block resale of the
units completely.

If Amazon is actually prohibiting _all_ resale, even as "used", they are going
to be making a huge giveaway to eBay and Swappa, since that is where the
secondary market will likely go. The demand for used Macs isn't going to
disappear, and Apple's recent trend towards higher prices is going to increase
it.

~~~
baybal2
Believe me or not, it is said that at around Iphone 3 era, Apple paid of huge
sums of money to refurbishers in Malaysia to simply close the shop.

During production of iPhone 4, they started production with plain optical
binding gel, but switched to very hard, solvent resistant epoxy mid way.
Again, to frustrate refurbishers.

Then, they literally paid off Alibaba to push refurbishers out from their
platforms. There is a strong evidence for that: there was a press release once
of "Apple entering strategic partnership with Alibaba" without any specifics,
and the sane week, the kicked out all refurbishers.

I bet, they did the same with Amazon

~~~
megaremote
> Believe me or not, it is said that at around Iphone 3 era

What is there to believe? That you heard something? I believe that you heard
it. The fact you think that makes it true is worrying.

~~~
baybal2
10 years ago, when I was an exchange student in Singapore, I worked in a
company that was running a trading business specialising in refurbished and
low cost consumer electronics. Very early on, we were exporting refurbished
Sony phones from Malaysian refurbishers, and later on we tried to switch to
first smartphones. In late 2009, I left Singapore, and never heard of how it
ended up.

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sangd
In my own experience, I find 3rd party refurbishers are terrible at having the
quality control & testing done thoroughly. Some even went on to claim as
"manufacturer refurbished" which is very misleading imo. This is a very good
move for consumers when buying Apple refurbished products from Amazon.

~~~
Shivetya
Amazon needs to realize that when ebay is safer because of their buyer
protection plans that they, Amazon, have a problem.

~~~
indemnity
Hell, I’ve had quicker refunds from _AliExpress_ when an order was dodgy.

Amazon needs to pull their head out.

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Animats
_" Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or
conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or
with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal. Every person who shall make
any contract or engage in any combination or conspiracy hereby declared to be
illegal shall be deemed guilty of a felony, and, on conviction thereof, shall
be punished by fine not exceeding $100,000,000 if a corporation, or, if any
other person, $1,000,000, or by imprisonment not exceeding 10 years, or by
both said punishments, in the discretion of the court."_ \- 15 U.S. Code § 1

~~~
gpm
Is there case law that supports or refutes the interpretation s of that that
would make this illegal?

~~~
Animats
A history of weak enforcement, mostly. What's going on here could be viewed as
a "per se" violation, illegal on its face. It's an open agreement between two
parties to restrain trade by a third party. Those usually don't go well in
antitrust cases, if the Justice Department actually takes them to court.

~~~
gpm
Agreements like that happen all the time. For example a sandwich place renting
area in a food court under the condition that they won't lease a nearby store
to another sandwich place. It seems unlikely to me that they are all
illegal...

[0]
[https://loweringthebar.net/2006/11/judge_rules_bur.html](https://loweringthebar.net/2006/11/judge_rules_bur.html)

~~~
Animats
When you have near-monopoly power, antitrust is more of an issue.

------
danso
That's an interesting agreement by Apple, how much more business do they gain?
I simply would never buy from Amazon, not just because of the risk of
counterfeit, but because Apple's online ordering is already so good. And it's
a bit easier to find my receipts/purchase history when trying to get a product
fixed or replaced at the store.

~~~
giarc
The problem is that not everyone knows who they are buying from. Take this
listing as an example [1], it is a MacBook Air and it even says "By Apple".
But that doesn't mean it's being sold by Apple, just that it's an Apple
product. The seller is actually GainSaver who has 60% lifetime negative review
score (based on only 5 reviews). The name GainSaver is written in size 12 font
in a single place on the listing (Apple is listed 14 times).

So customers could potentially buy this product, think they are buying an
"Apple Refurbished" product and when it doesn't work, turn up at an Apple
store expecting them to service it (which they will do, but for a cost).
Doesn't make for a great customer experience.

On a personal note, I've looked on Amazon a few times for a refurbished iPhone
and have walked away a bunch of times since it all seems so sketchy.

1\. [https://www.amazon.ca/Apple-MacBook-MJVE2LL-13-3-Inch-
Refurb...](https://www.amazon.ca/Apple-MacBook-MJVE2LL-13-3-Inch-
Refurbished/dp/B013HD3INW/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1541887370&sr=1-2-spons&keywords=macbook+air&psc=1)

------
morpheuskafka
As usual, this articles doesn’t understand that there should be a different
between standards imposed on everyone by law and standards set by businesses
for their own marketplaces and by extension the reputation of their brand.

If private refurbishers can no longer sell through Amazon, they can throw up a
Shopify or WooCommerce in a few hours and keep going. Amazon, like any other
business, is entitled to choose whose products are to be sold through then.

This is a free market society and we all may choose where to purchase
products. Many Amazon customers want to see only official products that are
trustworthy and carry manufacturer support. Just like Walmart or Target or
Joe’s corner store, Amazon is making a business decision to better serve they
customers. No one is losing any sort of right.

~~~
ucha
Amazon has a 50+ % share of e-commerce in the US. By law, monopolies are not
allowed to engage in anti-competitive behaviour including favouring some
products or their own.

~~~
empath75
50% is far from being a monopoly.

AT&T had 100% of phone service. Google has 90% of the search market. Windows
95 had something like 95% market share. Those are monopolies. Amazon may have
a monopoly on some market segments like books, but they’re far from having a
monopoly in online retail.

------
proctor
louis rossmann[0] responds

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K669-vhKshU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K669-vhKshU)

[0] louis rossmann repair group in nyc is a small business that specializes in
repairing apple products

------
jjeaff
Great news for eBay I guess. I've found myself slowing going back to eBay.
Especially for user items.

~~~
thirdsun
As it should be. eBay and Amazon serve, or should serve, two very different
purposes. In my opinion used items have no place on Amazon and the whole
marketplace approach results in a sketchy shopping experience I'd like to
avoid.

------
zackmorris
I worked for an Apple Specialist (someone with an actual license from Apple to
do repairs) and for myself, flipping Macs back when the housing bubble popped.

I don't see how this can possibly be legal. Yes Amazon is having problems with
counterfeit products, and yes Apple has its own definition of what refurbished
means. But it should not be legal to only allow sales of used products from a
_certain_ vendor. <\- self explanatory, that's what antitrust laws are all
about.

This sounds like a lawsuit is on the way. Unfortunately in these times, with
the amount of money that these large corporations have, it's going to be an
expensive case that drags on potentially for years. And with the stacked
courts that favor corporations now, monopolies are more likely to win out.

------
specialist
What is the proper balance between right to repair and anti counterfeiters?

I've personally repaired most of my Apple gear. And hope to continue.

I also understand the arms race Apple is facing with fraud, counterfeiters.

Tough problem.

~~~
eric_h
> What is the proper balance between right to repair and anti counterfeiters?

Probably a legitimate way to get replacement parts from Apple?

Licensed apple service centers are still a thing, but as far as I know they’re
the only way to get legit apple parts. My only experience is for Mac parts
though, I’m not sure if they extend into the iOS realm. They didn’t when I
left that industry (shortly after the first iPhone was released, the third
party licensed repair shops had to ship back to apple for repairs)

~~~
CodeWriter23
There are a couple of outlets that sell new Apple Replacement Parts, this
being one of them [https://www.dvwarehouse.com](https://www.dvwarehouse.com)
and yes, they charge the full price.

Note: I am not affiliated with this company, sharing as a reference. I had two
happy transactions with them related to my 2008 Mac Pro, a new logic board and
a new power supply for a different Mac Pro.

------
toss1
Amazon definitely has a huge counterfeit problem.

My first impression/hope is that this is part of an attempt to repair that.

But it sure seems like the wrong target, as these guys are just selling
repaired old goods, not fake new goods, which is the problem.

If they have a big problem with high defect/return rates, they certainly
should be sanctioned out also. but my suspicion is that this is just a deal
between BigCo a and BigCo B to enhance extractive profits. Sad to see it going
like this...

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downrightmike
That didn't take long.

~~~
JDWolf
Did something particular prompt this?

~~~
protomyth
Probably a result of [https://www.macrumors.com/2018/11/09/apple-amazon-new-
produc...](https://www.macrumors.com/2018/11/09/apple-amazon-new-product-
deal/)

~~~
JDWolf
Interesting, hopefully they will come up with some strategies to reduce
counterfeits/innacuratelistings in general

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nathanaldensr
The Apple that produced the famous Big Brother ad is no more, and hasn't been
for years. The sooner people accept this (and overcome the cognitive
dissonance) the better.

Keep feeding the beast, folks.

