
The Product is the Byproduct - nphase
http://zachholman.com/talk/product-is-the-byproduct
======
bmelton
This is perhaps the first slide I've seen by Holman, but despite having seen
what feels like a million slide decks this year, this one resonated to me like
no other has.

In an older job, I was constantly battling my program manager's desire to have
everybody "come in on time". It was a great offense to her if somebody came in
so much as five minutes late. Despite being the managing developer for the
team, and hence, ultimately responsible for all the engineering work that
happened, I refused to care, so long as the work was getting done. I had a
great team of talented guys that were always down to knock out a problem,
whatever the problem was.

My boss wouldn't see the hours they put in working from home ("How do I know
they're _working_ if I can't see them!?!?"), or the hours they stayed late
when the work wasn't done.

I tried the age old arguments "So long as the work is getting done..." or
"They can come and go whenever they want so long as I'm meeting deadlines..."
etc., but none of it flew. I regret not trying harder to change the culture
before ultimately giving up and going somewhere that 'got it'. As a result, I
have less responsibility, work from home, work more than I used to, and am
happier to do so. I also can't imagine giving up the team that I have now for
any reason, and I honestly think they feel similarly.

I usually poo-poo all over 'company culture' lectures, but this one completely
hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned.

~~~
think-large
Your comment was very inspiring. At the risk of saying too much, I find myself
in a similar situation, where the culture of my workplace doesn't seem to jive
with productivity or the way I work. I think another danger of a workplace is
the idea that appearance is more important that quality of character.

Anyone can put on a suit and tie, but the ability and desire to fix problems
isn't inherent in everyone. I've been at government contracts where they
overvalue the employees who dress well and don't value those that look them
straight in the eye, tell the truth and deliver in a timely manner.

~~~
bmelton
It's probably not coincidence that the former environment I spoke of was also
a government contract.

Government work is hard for the reasons you mentioned, and also because
generally, contracting pays well enough to price you out of other markets.

My exit strategy was to find a government vendor (e.g., that makes products
for government / enterprise consumption) vs. a government contractor. The
services side of the house is still pretty much a suit-and-tie affair, though
we pride ourselves on being much more meritocratic than our customers, but on
the engineering side, pretty much anything goes.

The one thing I will say about gov contracting is that as a result, I
interfaced with much more than would have been in my normal comfort zone, and
I came away from it MUCH more knowledgeable than I would have had I not done
it at all, and the work was very rewarding. My advice is to hold out for the
good parts as long as you can while quietly looking for a way out that seems
fulfilling.

~~~
think-large
Thanks for the advice. I've slowly been moving to the more technical side of
the house since I graduated school, because I got hired on as an "Systems
Engineer" that wrote power points. It was great in that I learned to deal with
customers and push my comfort zone, but it also left my coding experience
woefully insufficient for a time.

Luckily, I'm a step closer to what I want to do now, and I can fill my time
with Udacity/Coursera classes when there is an abundant amount of downtime. I
do have my eyes on the prize (which would be working in a faced paced and
supportive environment) but I'm still building my skill set. It's just good to
know that other people have been where I am and approached the problem
logically to finally get somewhere that there was a better fit for them.

I plan on moving away from government contracting in general soon. I find that
while they do pay well the constraints they put on the work just isn't worth
it. If the company doesn't own the system that they work on then they don't
tend to care about it in the same way.

------
trhtrsh
> "increases in masculine wording were sufficient to decrease women's job
> appeal ratings and their anticipated belongingness in specific occupations"

> People in Silicon Valley are dicks

> Hire those bothered by suck

> [random butt statue]

~~~
holman
Good point.

This talk got restructured at least twice this week before I gave it, but I
should have reworded those phrases, too.

~~~
yxhuvud
On the other hand, I felt "Hire those bothered by suck" was the one sentence
that resonated the most with me.

------
jayliew
Yo. There's no proof that a great by-product produces a great product. Read
the memo by Marc Andreessen about product-market fit. You can nail by-product
and still miss the product. But of course, like Marc Andreessen said, it's
popular for employers to champion "we care about our hires" (because who would
do the opposite?)

Update: This post suffers from a cause-and-effect fallacy, and hindsight bias.
More: [http://times.jayliew.com/2012/10/12/cause-and-effect-
fallacy...](http://times.jayliew.com/2012/10/12/cause-and-effect-fallacy-the-
by-product-does-not-make-the-product/)

So many developers are falling for this. Wake the F- up.

The irony: Zach doesn't realize he's talking like a pretentious Steve Jobs.
Until you can prove cause and effect, please stop tricking developers. Yo.

~~~
jayliew
Since I can't update the post anymore, I just wanted to apologize for the tone
of the comment above. It was a knee-jerk reaction, and there's no need for me
to sound like that.

------
ajsharp
My favorite slide:

    
    
        Worry more about *building* the damn thing
    
        Worry less *about* the damn thing
    

Many startups have a habit of being obsessed with themselves and their
"culture" more than actually _building_ the product.

There are so many things that are admirable and awe-inspiring about Github,
and how they've gone about building their business. From my perspective, all
of these things are a byproduct of one core value: building.

------
calpaterson
This slide deck is deeply ironic. It is Zach Holman's presentations (full of
macho posing and aggressive language - including this one) that give the
impression that github is a macho and aggressive company on the inside.
Perhaps it isn't, but the spokeman is terrible.

"I hate brogrammers" - but if I was asked to name a famous one, Zach be it.
Excessive swearing in talks, "people on the internet are dicks", "OAuth will
murder your children". If Zach Holman was holding a work barbecue, would
people take their children?

------
jt2190
I'm really curious if github's culture is the cause of their success or a
result of it. I'm doubly curious if their bootstrapping was critical to this.
My suspicion is that when outside investment arrives, the clock starts
ticking, the pressure mounts on the founders, and this may result in a greater
motivation to "manage" people's time, for fear of "wasting" time.

~~~
tarr11
They were initially successful because they build a product that people needed
and was good.

They continued to be successful by creating a culture that attracts good
people who continue to build good products.

~~~
jt2190
Forgive me, tarr11, but how do you know that culture was added later?

~~~
tarr11
"There were, so far, no agreements of any kind regarding how things would
proceed. Just two guys that decided to hack together on something that sounded
cool."

Here's the story of how it got founded:

[http://tom.preston-werner.com/2008/10/18/how-i-turned-
down-3...](http://tom.preston-werner.com/2008/10/18/how-i-turned-
down-300k.html)

It'd be hard to argue that the first few months of hacking was "culture".

~~~
jt2190
Thanks for the link to Tom Preston-Werner's blog post about the founding of
GitHub, it's a very good read.

He has another blog post, "Ten Lessons from GitHub’s First Year" [1]. Two of
the ten points suggest that culture was important even in those early days:

    
    
      > Have Fun... Fostering a playful and creative environment 
      > is critical to maintaining both your personal health, 
      > and the health (and idea output) of the company.
      >
      > Trust your Team... In a startup, you can drastically reduce 
      > momentum by applying micromanagement, or you can boost
      > momentum by giving trust.
    

Although I agree completely with your point that "[i]t'd be hard to argue that
the first few months of hacking was 'culture'"... It sure doesn't feel like
they had to put a conscious effort into building a culture at this early
stage, rather that their culture was already embodied in their personal
beliefs, and the company now reflects those beliefs.

[1] [http://tom.preston-werner.com/2011/03/29/ten-lessons-from-
gi...](http://tom.preston-werner.com/2011/03/29/ten-lessons-from-githubs-
first-year.html)

------
jordanmessina
I think Github has nailed it in terms of culture. I've been trying to get my
company to adopt the Github ways for a while and I can't wait to share this
latest gem with everyone.

I do have some questions though. What is Github's structure like? Is it
completely flat? Are there project managers? How do you 'manage' remote
workers? I feel like there has to be a little structure to the chaos, or at
least some techniques and tools that make things work smoothly, especially
with a company that's growing so fast.

~~~
jeremymcanally
There are no project managers. Everyone is a manager. Literally. You're all
responsible for the pieces of the product you're working on in equal terms.

We of course have "primary responsibility people" who are sort of shepherds of
various features, and inevitably leaders emerge from among the pack. But we
don't have anyone who simply "manages" things.

Our structure is able to withstand this due to the way we structure our
internal teams. We're constantly tweaking how we do that, but by keeping the
teams small, strategic decisions close to the people who are actually
executing them, and retaining intense focus on one piece of the GitHub
Product™ (which could be anything from a feature to "performance" to "making
GitHubbers' lives easier" to "making us more money"), it makes things run
smoothly without some sort of overlord forcing it.

~~~
drumdance
This reminds me of how a friend described the role of product manager: "a
person with huge responsibility but no power." That doesn't have to be a bad
thing. The best product managers know how to listen, give and receive
feedback, persuade and build consensus around features, deadlines, marketing
strategy etc even though they don't have the power to say "just do what I
said."

~~~
yxhuvud
Indeed, and the ones that understand that they have no power is the best ones.
They have a vision and educate about market and customer needs.

The ones that believe they have power tend to be dicks on the other hand :(

------
endlessvoid94
Please pardon the imminent condescension.

Zach, this is the first of your slideshows that has left me with a lifted
feeling, the feeling of reassurance that not all popular hackers are dicks,
narrow-minded, or naive. Thank you!

I should probably be less judgmental, but I'm so tired of the facebook-
rockstar-ninja vocabulary. Glad to see I'm not alone.

------
savories
Nice read.

I had a hard time taking Mr Holman's work seriously at first because of his
choice of self portraits. They scream "brogrammer" to me.

I'm a convert now, though

~~~
kenneth_reitz
Honestly, I felt the exact same way. This is excellent.

------
callmeed
_"Nothing great was ever not shipped"_

That's gold.

~~~
enraged_camel
I actually found myself disagreeing with that. There are many great ideas that
were killed by corporate bureaucracies before they had a chance of being
shipped.

~~~
callmeed
I guess we just interpret it differently. I don't ascribe "greatness" to
merely ideas or potential. Execution or application has to follow.

A great idea killed by a BigCo bureaucracy is like a talented athlete who is
injured before his/her pro career even starts. All the talent in the world
will never put such a person in the record books or hall of fame.

------
apl
You know, I don't think any new ground was broken here with regard to content
and message, but aesthetically, Holman's slide decks are invariably great.

~~~
mej10
I do like his slide decks as they are better than 99% of the ones that I see,
but what it really points out (to me) is how little time everyone else puts
into how their decks look. In my experience it isn't particularly hard or time
consuming to put together a deck that looks like this. You just have to do it.

~~~
derwiki
It's better than others (mine included), but it's still didn't seem great to
me. I just watched a TED Talk
(www.ted.com/talks/melissa_marshall_talk_nerdy_to_me.html) that really hit me
as to why tech presentations are usually very boring. I'd rather see someone
take the time to turn a presentation into a well-written blogpost than fumble
through slides that sometimes just have a 1Password logo.

------
dawernik
Love the slides, they don't even need a soundtrack. Was going to leave a FU
comment, but it was too obvious.

I'm in a BigCo and every time we acquire a LittleCo I get massive culture
envy. I think you nailed how great product happens.

------
gfodor
FUCK YOUUUUUUUUUUUU

~~~
mdonahoe
Is that an FU to Zach? The message? HN? Me? Lol.

Edit: I'm an idiot.

------
marblar
Holman's slides are always top notch.

------
perlpimp
Transistor was a byproduct. Bell labs was a place where great/smart people and
their ideas and thoughts were simmering for ages. Transistor from what I read
almost didn't happen, but by accident it did.

Isn't pivot is a synthetic replacement for the essence of 'happy' accident?

------
eranation
Anyone who made it to the "people on the internet are dicks" and wondered if
that HN post is real and was too lazy to type:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4583>

~~~
holman
Not that one. :) Just took a random URL and truncated a few numbers. Didn't
want to tie it to anything in particular.

------
rokhayakebe
'Nothing great was ever not shipped."

------
enraged_camel
I wish people in my company prepared slide decks like this.

------
marcfawzi
The only reason I went thru his slides was his starting sentence. "People in
Silicon Valley are dicks." Amen to that.

------
Create
News FLASH: Microsoft doesn't create software, despite all appearances [VMS++,
Spyglass etc.] -- neither does that Italian restaurant make its living off of
pasta [capo dei capi!]. VW doesn't make cars. It creates car factories. The
cars are just byproducts. Intel doesn't make CPUs. It makes fabs [ _fab_
rication plants]. CPUs are byproducts (they were RAM, and could also very well
be ...well FLASH).

