
Amazon Ruined Online Shopping - seagullz
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/01/amazon-made-online-commerce-bewildering/580660/
======
Johnny555
_Amazon made online shopping feel safe and comfortable, at least mechanically,
where once the risk of being scammed by bad actors felt huge_

Maybe this was true once, but now Amazon has brought back that fear and
confusion of getting scammed.

You used to be able to count on reviews for some idea of the quality of the
product, but now you need to do research at someplace like www.fakespot.com to
see if the reviews are fake.

And even if the product is legit and works well and it's fulfilled by Amazon,
when you get the product you need to check it carefully to see if it's a
counterfeit knockoff that some vendor sold through amazon's commingled
inventory.

I've switched to
[https://www.bhphotovideo.com/](https://www.bhphotovideo.com/) for most of my
computer/electronics purchases now - they seem to price match Amazon
automatically (or maybe amazon price matches them, many products have an
identical price) and delivery is almost always within 2 - 3 days. I used to go
to newegg, but have had a few issues with their third party sellers (product
never shipped after ordering) so stopped going there.

~~~
NegativeK
Amazon's counterfeit problem seems like something they're not taking seriously
enough. For a laser printer or a lamp, sure -- I'll buy from Amazon and deal
with the return if I ever get screwed. But for climbing gear, of which I've
bought quite a bit of, I simply won't touch Amazon. I haven't heard of
counterfeit (versus obvious trash, which exists but is different) climbing
goods on Amazon, but I simply can't risk it.

~~~
adetrest
There is also the issue of genuine items sold as new which are actually very
well repackaged returns. Amazon does minimal (if any?) checking of returns and
I have frequently received items that had obviously been opened and used then
returned and sold to me as new. I very fondly recall opening the package for
Wahl electric clippers and having a bunch of hairs fall out of the box, but
it's far from the only occurrence. Of course, the item was shipped and sold by
Amazon.

Also see the cases where houses burned down because of hover boards sold by
Amazon. These items didn't meet the standards to be sold in North America and
burnt a family's house down. They went to court and amazon won because
"they're only a market place and your beef is with the manufacturer, and we
can't tell you who they are or how to contact them because they're some fly by
night company in China."

~~~
Johnny555
I've never had that problem Amazon fulfilled merchandise (but have run into it
with some third-party sellers, including one that sent me a product with "Bad
- does not work" written on the box, so it was clearly a defective return).

But I have had some bad experiences with "Amazon warehouse deals" where they
do resell returned/opened merchandise at a discount, once the product in the
box was completely different than what it was supposed to be.

They've been good about replacing/refunding those but now I only order the
warehouse deals if I'm ok with waiting for a replacement if the one they sent
is bad.

------
gnicholas
> _On top of that, Amazon is more than willing to fix its errors._

In my experience, this is less true than it used to be. For example, my mom
ordered a DVD in early December to be given as a Christmas gift. It was a
Prime item, and she is a Prime subscriber. For some reason, it wasn't showing
that it would be delivered until just before Christmas. Even though this was
odd — and arguably a breach of the Prime agreement — she figured it was no big
deal because it would be in time for Christmas. Then, just before it was
supposed to be delivered, Amazon updated the delivery to _after_ Christmas.
This was actually OK by her, since the recipient (my daughter) would still be
at her house for a few days after Christmas. Again, just before it was to be
delivered, they updated the shipping again, and now said it would arrive Jan
15 to Jan 30. When she chatted the Amazon reps, they just said sorry for the
inconvenience, and offered nothing for this shipping miss. Eventually they
agreed to put a credit on her account for the inconvenience, but the credit
never actually materialized.

We canceled the order and bought the DVD (plus digital copy!) from Walmart.
This is just one of many negative customer service experiences we've had with
Amazon in the last few months. The other big problem is that they now want
each return put in its own box — even if it was shipped to us with multiple
other items that are also being returned. We have been Prime customers for
years, but perhaps not for much longer.

~~~
CamelCaseName
I can't comment on the other points, but I can reply to this:

>The other big problem is that they now want each return put in its own box —
even if it was shipped to us with multiple other items that are also being
returned. We have been Prime customers for years, but perhaps not for much
longer

The reason for this is because each seller can set their own return address. I
receive all returns to ensure that they are destroyed and that no customer
accidentally buys something new and receives a customer return.

Beyond minimizing costs for Amazon/sellers, this also reduces waste and
environmental impact because each good only has to be shipped once.

~~~
gnicholas
For what it’s worth, in every case where they’ve insisted on this, the return
addresses were identical. We had to come up with multiple boxes to mail
everything back but everything went to the same place.

------
freyir
Recently, I was searching for a new office chair. Amazon offers the popular
Steelcase Leap at full price, $978. You'd likely think you're paying full
price to get a new chair. See if you can tell that you're getting ripped off:

[https://www.amazon.com/d/Office-Desk-Chairs/Steelcase-
Fabric...](https://www.amazon.com/d/Office-Desk-Chairs/Steelcase-Fabric-Chair-
Black-46216179FBL/B006H1QYBA)

Spoiler: buried in the fine print, and listed as a "feature," it says "open
box refurb".

Customers are unwittingly paying full price for refurbished chairs, which
typically sell for under $400. Many reviews claim that the chairs do not seem
up to standard quality. You might think this is from some shady third-party
seller, but it's in fact, "Ship from and sold by Amazon.com." And if you list
all New/Used/Refurbished sellers, Amazon.com shows up in the New category,
despite being described as a refurb in the product description. What a mess.

~~~
jhall1468
That's either a mistake in the product description or an error in marking it
new. Amazon is selling it's standard "new" warranties along with it, which
wouldn't be possible if it's a refurb. My guess is the product description is
inaccurate.

Disclosure: I work at Amazon.

~~~
CamelCaseName
Definitely a product description error.

The product description field should never comment on the new/used/refurbished
nature of the product being purchased because different conditions can
(usually) be sold on the same listing.

What probably happened is someone copied and pasted the description from
somewhere else where the listing was specifically for refurbished chairs, or
the very first seller of this item was selling it refurbished and wanted to
call it out explicitly.

Amazon detail pages are confusing, but honestly, I don't know how to improve
them. I get loads of returns for people claiming they bought something used
that was sold as new, even though the condition is clearly marked as used and
a lengthy description next to it about the condition.

------
80mph
I recently went down the rabbit hole of trying to buy Yorkshire Gold tea on
Amazon (I am in the US). I encountered so many bad reviews of users
complaining about the quality, and the flavor being weakened, or not the
authentic YG flavor, that I gave up. It was impossible to tell to which seller
each bad review was attributable.

I went on Ebay, found decent UK sellers in less than 5 minutes, and ordered my
tea. Downside of course, is that it will take 2-3 weeks to get here, but at
least I know what I'm getting.

~~~
koboll
There are certain swaths of items that you literally can't buy anymore because
they are completely overrun with counterfeiters. Perfume/cologne and board
games are two big ones.

Amazon is, at this point, undoubtedly one of the largest enablers of open
counterfeiting in the world. It needs to be met with a massive investigation
and crippling fines. That probably won't happen until we have a federal
government that is no longer slavish prostituted to business interests,
unfortunately.

~~~
savanaly
Board games are completely overrun you say? But I buy at least a half dozen
big board games per year from Amazon and have never had a problem.

~~~
hnal943
I haven't had a problem either, but Asmodee did make a big stink about this
last year: [https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/39296/icv2-interview-
asm...](https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/39296/icv2-interview-asmodee-
execs-counterfeiting)

~~~
koboll
What an interview. The whole time, there's this strong subtext that Amazon is
the primary vector here, but they never come out and say it -- and dance
around the issue of what corrective legislation would actually look like --
because they're evidently afraid of getting on its shit list, despite the
massive harm its negligence is enabling.

------
hirundo
> But there’s a reason that we used to have shoe stores, hardware stores,
> grocery stores, bookstores, and all the rest: Those specialized retail
> spaces allow products, and the people with knowledge about them, to engage
> in specialized ways of finding, choosing, and purchasing them.

There's a reason why so much commerce has moved online in general and to
Amazon in particular: We often value price and convenience and oodles of
consumer reviews and easy access to competition and related info more than we
value meat space salespeople with specialized knowledge laying on personalized
sales pressure.

Not always. I drove for three hours to shop for an office chair in a brick and
mortar store, because I had to actually try it before paying the big bucks.
But often enough to remake the economy.

~~~
NikolaNovak
It's a matter of trust as well.

My parents generation, now in the 70's, has this implicit trust in
salespeople. They know "in principle" that there are "bad apples", but if a
salesperson shakes their hand, looks them in the eye, and says "Of course Mr.
<Insert name>, we'll take care of you", they buy it wholesale. Which is how my
dad bought $600 tires for $1800 at a dealership, a $1200 "DSLR camera" which
was actually a superzoom point and shoot, a wired phone headset which was
actually wireless headphones with no boom, etc.

I have basically zero trust in the "specialized retail stores with specialized
sales people". Any time I geek out a little bit about any retail area, I learn
the 101 ways they have and do scam you, and my trust erodes further. A
specialized expensive shoe store swore my shoes I bought specifically for air
travel don't have metal shims in them; of course they do. The electronic
stores are never staffed with people who know more than I do, or frequently
anything at all other than to push extended warranty. Small car maintenance
store I've dealt with regularly for 15 years have turned out to be skimming
and scamming once I learned more about their product and service, all the
while greeting me warmly by name and "taking care of me". And yes, my dad and
his friends still go to them.

So yes, bring on the faceless online warehouse. I feel safer there - or at
least, am better equipped to determine fake/counterfeit/exploitative than I am
in person. For all the decades that Amazon and the like had to develop methods
to scam us, in-person salespeople had centuries, and I ain't winning that
game.

~~~
yholio
In the small business dominated world of 40 years ago trust was a fundamental
economic asset. A bad seller would immediately get a bad reputation and it
would be known around the community. People trusted each other because that's
how society has worked for millennia, to the point of tribalism, we are never
allowed to scam "our" people for we might be ostracized and literally be in
mortal peril outside the tribe. A handshake and a look in the eye says: "I'm
staking my family's livelihood on this".

Then the tech revolution happened and took the corporatist economic model to
massive new levels. Large capital owners could more effectively circumvent the
lack of social capital (trust) by investing in technology. Communication tools
allowed them to better manage sprawling business empires and reach the
consumer directly. The mom&pop gave way to the franchise and the retail chain,
it's social capital was undercut by media-induced branding and billion dollar
advertising campaigns.

For the national chain, it's largely irrelevant if some old guy got suckered
into buying crap by an underpaid employee looking to make a commission. He
might complain to his neighbors but unless the media takes an interest, it's
not an existential threat to the corporation with national level PR and
advertising. The chain has other things to worry about, like expanding faster
than the competition and hiring even more cheap & sleazy guys capable of
producing income.

The end game of this brave new world is precisely the "everything store"
against which no mom&pop can compete. Our generation instinctively mistrusts
the corporate drone regardless of it's physical or online incarnation. Your
father is the product of a different social arrangement.

~~~
davidgay
> In the small business dominated world of 40 years ago trust was a
> fundamental economic asset. A bad seller would immediately get a bad
> reputation and it would be known around the community.

Sorry, this is bogus. Salesmen for electronic goods have been terrible at
least since the 70s - my father, who designed ICs used in TVs, used to rant
about their incompetence and bald-faced lies...

My assumption is that they've always been awful.

~~~
roymurdock
bigger point is that communities and tribes have gotten larger at least in the
US, breaking down once strong barriers of trust (people becoming more numbers
than neighbors)

------
lesdeuxmagots
As part of the customer category that spends tens of thousands on Amazon per
year, having shifted the majority of my non niche spending for physical goods
to the platform, I've found their error rate to be well under 1%. I also
return <1% of my orders for other reasons. I've contacted customer service
maybe 3 times in total over the span of 10 years and each time the issue was
resolved incredibly quickly and effectively. Maybe I'm in the minority here?
Or is it just the errors that get all the attention.

However, that confusion within categories has increased is undeniable. Try to
buy a bath towel and be flooded with similar items with similar reviews. The
ability to search and sort efficiently has definitely declined dramatically.
It takes a lot more effort to make sure you're buying what you wanted for
certain categories, particularly soft ones. I can no longer trust that the
best selection is going to be on the first page of results.

I wonder if Amazon will draw the line somewhere on how wide, how encompassing
of a platform it is for third party vendors. It seems to have pushed itself
over a limit.

~~~
Bayart
The lack of filtering options is really something that penalizes Amazon as a
customer experience for me as well.

But I'm starting to think they might be making it bad on purpose to give more
visibility to their ranking schemes.

------
Dowwie
Evidently, Amazon is ruining Whole Foods at breakneck speeds, too. The one
near me was re-designed to a cold, commercial feel. Many items were removed.
No more freshly roasted coffee on-site. etc. Cashier asked me if I was a prime
member. No thanks, Amazon.

~~~
tvanantwerp
Agreed, Whole Foods' quality is suffering under Amazon. It's a crap-shoot now
whether I'll actually find what I'm looking for.

They've also implemented the most frustrating customer rewards program I've
ever seen in a grocery store. You have an app with a QR code that you scan at
PoS--but the scanners they've got almost never detect the code! Probably
60-80% of the time, the cashier has to scan it herself with the regular
barcode scanner. I tried using my phone number once--a common practice at
other store that always works--but it couldn't detect that I was a Prime
member, despite my phone number being very clearly entered into my Amazon
account. Even when I do finally get scanned in as a Prime member, I usually
save less than $2. It's so much frustration that I often don't bother. Whoever
was in charge of creating and implementing that program should be fired.

~~~
sam0x17
Yeah, for a while they did 30% off on all deli items, and we saved $100s with
that, but otherwise it's like $1-$2.

------
city41
Amazon makes it basically impossible to compare prices by unit of measure (ie
$0.94 per gallon or what not). I’ve wanted to make a browser extension to
attempt to fix that.

I’ve always suspected this is intentional. But if I could compare prices this
way and be confident I’m getting the best deal, I’d buy things on Amazon a lot
more.

~~~
chias
I find this especially infuriating -- they even do it within a single product!

[https://i.imgur.com/aeaeuT2.png](https://i.imgur.com/aeaeuT2.png)

That's $0.98 / oz, but if you switch from fruit punch to blue raz it becomes
$15.18 / lb, and if you switch from the 60-serving pack to the 30-serving pack
it's $24.58 / lb, but if you want to subscribe and save that's $0.93 / oz.

WHY

~~~
guitarbill
Because US customary units are a pain? :D

Judging from shopping trips with housemates, I imagine most people don't look
at those things, so putting more effort into that feature isn't worth it. But
then again, Amazon's search is also notoriously bad, so maybe they simply
don't have good metadata for products, and they're all derived in an ad-hoc
way.

------
LeoPanthera
I increasingly find myself using eBay as a storefront. You can easily filter
by “Buy it Now” and “New”, and then it works basically like Amazon
marketplace, except that I trust the feedback system a lot more. There’s a lot
of small and independent sellers on eBay - plus you can get a lot of stuff
shipped directly from China and cut out the middleman, if that’s what you
prefer.

------
nanoseltzer
They may have ruined online shopping but they haven’t solved it either. The
clothing retailers (an area hard for amazon to move in on) will remain
competitive.

I think the one area amazon absolutely has done right is customer service. If
any other company made their customer service as good, easy, and simple, I
think they would be able to catch up quickly as well.

For example: I recently bought a jacket on sale from Columbia sportswear. It
didn’t get delivered to my unit properly (despite their usps tracking saying
that it did), and when I emailed them about it: absolutely no response. My
issue went into a black hole. Of course I have now blacklisted Columbia
sports: never again. If this was an amazon purchase, I would have been able to
resolve it almost immediately.

~~~
arkades
I find it interesting that we think of Amazon as having gotten "customer
service" right. I've had two classes of experience with Amazon:

Products they act as a seller for, and products they act as a producer for.

When I'm buying item X and it's not up to par, Amazon's response is invariably
"just send it on back and we'll refund you." At one point I complained I'm not
taking a half-day off work to get this $5 item in the mail and they said never
mind, just keep it, and we'll refund you anyway.

Awesome.

OTOH, they have a $10/mo (or so) a la carte book service, labelled "Prime
Books," with a "free" subtitle (or it was - I haven't checked back recently.)
Clicking on it was auto-enrolling. I didn't find out for a few months that
they'd apparently one-click-enrolled me in a recurring monthly bill. It took
me 3 hours on the phone to get them to partially refund it, and it ended with
me closing my account then and there. Despite having been a member since they
more or less "opened their doors," and a good chunk of my household spending
going through their portal, refunding money from their own service was a line
in the sand for them.

~~~
nanoseltzer
I can see that 3 hour call being real - I’ve had similar experiences with
amazon customer service that I could foresee becoming a long call, such as
canceling Prime: they certainly made me wait about 15-20 minutes while trying
to “procure permission” and it ended up being some kind of verbal guarantee
that another depr would email me the confirmation. After a few hours I did get
the confirmation and refund. The entire call did take about 45 minutes: quite
a frustratingly long time.

Navigating amazon customer service itself has become a learning experience.
Typically the fastest way when getting an annoying customer service agent who
“just doesn’t get it” is to request a transfer to amazon USA customer service.
You can also request speaking to a supervisot and continue escalating.
Sometimes calls end up being 30-45 minutes regardless of method, since they do
not always make transferring to amazon USA easy (and then once you get to
amazon USA you play the same game over again).

It’s certainly nowhere as good as my original post made it sound, but it’s
still better than most online shops.

~~~
ams6110
I just cancelled my Prime subscription this month. I did it online, and other
than having to click "yes I really want to cancel" on three separate
confirmation screens, it was pretty frictionless. My subscription was about to
renew so there was no issue of a refund, I just cancelled the renewal.

------
Invictus0
I was recently backpacking in Colombia. In Colombia, no one shops online: the
mountainous terrain makes shipping extremely expensive. It was an extremely
refreshing experience. There are malls of course but also many small stores
for things like school supplies and niche clothing brands (I bought a sweater
from a store that sold basically nothing but sweaters: they also had a fully
stocked bar with a pillow lounge, loft, and a TV in the back.) The public
transportation is well utilized and people walk in the streets. Small
grocery/convenience stores are only a stone's throw from anywhere in the city.
This is what we have lost to online shopping.

------
porknubbins
I've had a pretty terrible experience trying to buy non stick skillets over
the years on Amazon with most of even the top rated items coming with huge
issues like warping on the first use, not being very non stick, flaking etc. I
almost wonder if its counterfeit or if manufacturers just cutting corners on
what used to be a good product? Either way reviews become almost useless when
you don't know which version you will be getting. I've found Amazon works much
better for items without potential latent quality issues like DVDs, books, or
products that are just binary work/don't work.

~~~
hirundo
I bought this non-stick pan on Amazon and it was one of my best purchases of
last year. The trick with non-sticks is to buy cheap enough cookware to
affordably replace regularly as they wear out. My previous non-stick pan cost
four times as much, wore out, and is now just hanging from a rack, looking
fabulous. With the new one, I plan to toss it in another year and buy another.

[https://www.amazon.com/Tramontina-80114-535DS-
Professional-R...](https://www.amazon.com/Tramontina-80114-535DS-Professional-
Restaurant/dp/B009HBKQ16)

~~~
p1necone
I don't see the point in non stick cookware. A simple stainless steel skillet
with some oil in it will perform just as well and last longer for most uses
(and you still need to add oil to a non stick skillet to get proper browning
anyway, but it pools because of the non stick coating and doesn't work as
well).

And a seasoned carbon steel or cast iron pan will be non stick for when you're
cooking fragile stuff like eggs or fish, as well as being _far_ superior for
searing meat and allowing you to use metal utensils.

Not to mention all of those alternatives will likely allow you to raise the
temperature much higher without damaging the pan than you would with a non
stick one.

The worst I've seen recently is non stick saucepans! Why on earth would that
tradeoff be worth it?

~~~
4ad
I hate non stick pots and pans, they are awful, and as you said, the olden
alternatives are better.

But I love my non stick saucepan for heating milk. Nothing comes close to
that.

~~~
p1necone
Non stick pans have always seemed to me like the classic marketing thing of
selling what uninformed consumers _think_ they need, rather than what is
actually more useful.

------
LeoPanthera
From the article:

> There’s no ambiguity about what you’re getting when you buy a particular
> book, CD, or DVD.

About a year ago I ordered a soundtrack CD from Amazon. It turned out to be a
“fake”, it was a CD-R that had a printed label. If you didn’t know it was a
CD-R, it looked reasonably convincing, the case was quite good quality. And it
did contain the correct music - it was just a pirate copy.

------
justtopost
I seem to return 1 out of 8 Amazon items, even eating the occasional cost of
poor quality items, because I needed -something-. They seem more and more to
make me print and mail stuff back, first making ups pickup no longer the
default, and now removing the option altogether.

I get lots of seemingly purposely mislabled products in the automotive section
now. I think i get maybe 50% success rate ordering car parts. Lots of fakes.
NGK, DENSO, and HONDA products seem to be prolific with counterfits. Had good
luck with GM and Toyota parts so far, but I expect that to change, or be a
fluke. Their automotive idea may see profit, bit I think they underestimated
the extra complexity and returns inherent. Brick and mortar stores do much
better at soaking up cost of returned parts I suspect.

~~~
gaius
If a product is a counterfeit then the cost they are soaking up is not that of
the return, but that of failing to police their supply chain. And they
absolutely should be looking to minimise the hassle to the customers in that
case.

------
toss1
>>"The problem with an Everything Store is that there’s no way to organize
everything effectively. The result is basically a giant digital flea market."

I'd describe it instead as their search and filtering stinks, and it is not
just Amazon.

The first issue is that Amazon and almost everyone else seem to think that
either we want, or it is in their best interest, to include in search results
anything vaguely resembling the search terms. Perhaps sometimes this is nice,
but the one thing that would help is: ____PROVIDE A STRICT BUTTON __ __This
would allow users to specify that the search items MUST include the specified
terms. If it returns an empty set, fine, remove the STRICT criteria, or enter
new terms. Simple.

The author also touched on the issue that you can't find anything by a
particular attribute (his example was a frame/matte of a particular size).
This cannot be emphasized enough -- they really need a system in each class of
products to extract and provide search/sort/filter on these particular
characteristics. Ideally an AI-ish solution would identify attributes and list
them. They could also simply require vendors to put up particular attributes,
and accurately.

It'd be REALLY nice if they had a usable API so we could setup our own search
& select UI, but...

------
jshowa3
I closed my account on Amazon a while back and barely ever shop there due to
how they treat their employees and their general bloated business model. I now
actively shop from other online sites when I'm looking for a product and will
gladly pay a little extra. The problem with Amazon is that every time I go
there, I'm treated with a cluttered mess of ads and products all over the
place. Whenever I search for what I want, I'm now treated with ads integrated
into the product list that look exactly like a product listing, horizontal bar
product listings of related/"recommended" products, and 300 (exaggeration)
different spammy options for buying a product as a "subscription" or "bundled
with amazon prime" at different price points when I only want to select a
quantity. Its mostly horrendous garbage now and I'm so glad I closed my
account and never use it. Its helped me save a lot of money (by removing
temptation) and shop in other places that don't try and up-sell me on other
products. Also, most products I can get immediately by just driving to a local
store. I don't have to wait 2-4 days to get it.

------
spricket
Amazon's counterfeit problem has ruined it for me. Like eBay before it, it's
mostly a place to window shop for me now. Despite the massive amount of work
they put into their logistics, they seem to have no trusted supply chain.

~~~
awakeasleep
eBay is actually easier to use for me, now.

With eBay, you can sort by 'used' items, and there is some focus on the seller
history- and by combining them you can form a reasonable expectation of whats
going on.

With Amazon, you're buying a lottery ticket, every time.

------
arbuge
I did notice that the rate at which I have to return unsatisfactory products
from Amazon seems to have shot upwards in the last year or so. Obviously a
hassle.

I've now gone back to getting what I can locally in most cases.

------
vkaku
My assertion is: Amazon ruined shopping.

It ruined workplace ethics. It ruined Seattle. It also ruined a lot of things.

I felt happy today going to a mom and pop franchise to purchase stuff. Happier
knowing that I've just started on my quest of moving away from Amazon. I make
money and some regular non-tech people make money and I'm happy they do.

AmazonBasics? Find a brand outlet - or go to AliExpress. Amazon is merely an
expensive broker here. I'd rather Jack Ma make that money than Jeff does.
Groceries? Go to your local offline vendor, preferable Mom and Pop. Computers?
Set up a deal with the local distributor. Tell them that you respect
reasonable prices and good support and they will give you a great experience.
Books / Movies / Videos? Rent from a library.

I've been a long time Amazon shopper and for the last two years I'm
consciously moving offline. I'm doing my bit and I've never felt happier.

------
amalternative
I noticed that the discussion about Amazon's decreasing quality comes up quite
regularly on HN. It seems to be a huge issue and a lot of people have negative
stories to tell. The best solution would be to move away from the big bad A
and buy from alternative stores. I know that this is not always possible but
let's try...

Shameless plug: A few days ago I created the site amalternative.com [1] which
lists alternative online stores. There is still a lot of work to do but I
decided to launch as soon as I could.

And I guess it meets a lot of HN requirements:

\- It's an MVP \- It's a side project \- There is no useless crap on the site
\- It's simple \- It's fast (Static, on Netlify ;)) \- It has an high
information density (Okay, not yet. But I'm working on it)

Let me hear what you think :)

[1] [https://www.amalternative.com/](https://www.amalternative.com/)

------
mauvehaus
I was never a Prime member, but I have bought stuff from Amazon in the past.
As of about 2 years ago, I've basically quit Amazon for all the reasons listed
in the article: confusing selection of products that I might want to buy (are
those widgets the same as those other widgets or not?), the decreasing
reliability of reviews, and the co-mingling of stock from different sellers.

Admittedly, I'm buying "weird" stuff online: principally woodworking tools and
hardware for furniture. Tools are a high-value item that lends itself
counterfeiting. Somebody I knew bought a 3' (90 cm) Starrett blade for their
combination square (MSRP ~$340) from Amazon, and got one that wasn't straight.
Was it counterfeit? Was it a second that slipped out the back door of the
factory? Was it a genuine one that slipped past quality control at Starrett?
Who knows.

He returned it and got a straight one, but there are other tools that are less
obviously "wrong". Chisels with lower-grade steel, knock-off planes with poor
quality castings or machining, counterfeit clamps (at $20-$30 a pair for basic
handscrews you could probably make a tidy profit making sub-par ones and
passing them off as the real thing).

For my money, I'll buy from somebody who only sells tools, and stakes their
reputation on delivering the tool I ordered, and a genuine one to boot.

It turns out that dedicated retailers still exist for this stuff; beyond the
US chains of Rockler and Woodcraft, there are a whole slew of independent
vendors (Among others: Little Machine Shop, Infinity Cutting Tools, Lee
Valley, Highland Woodworking).

And they take far better care of their customers. On the hardware front, I
ordered a lock and an escutcheon from (I think) Whitechapel, and when they
picked the order, they determined that the key wouldn't fit through the hole
in the escutcheon. /They called me/ to make sure I ended up with an escutcheon
that would fit the key.

To be sure, you pay for this level of service. Horton Brasses, Whitechapel,
Brusso, etc all charge a handsome price. But at the end of the day, you know
what you're getting, you can reach an actual human being if you need help
picking something for your application, and they stand behind their products.

I'm going to extrapolate from my area of interest here. Amazon only makes
sense for stuff that's essentially fungible (e.g. USB cables), or you're just
muggling around and don't mind exchanging a bit of your time to make something
that isn't quite right work for you once.

If you're doing anything in volume, predictability and repeatability matter a
lot. Knowing that the X you order this year is going to work the same as the X
you ordered 2 years ago counts for a lot.

~~~
alacombe
On the other side, a $15 chisel set is essentially fungible as well.

~~~
mauvehaus
Counterintuitively, the $15 price point is probably the point at which they
are _least_ fungible. Consider a 1/2" chisel:

$5 chisels are universally crap (terrible steel, terrible finish) $35 or
thereabouts chisels (Stanley 750, Two Cherries) are almost universally fine
(modulo weird personal preferences that some people have?). Companies
manufacturing chisels at this price point tend to do a lot of QC or have their
processes down to the point where they put out consistent product for year
after year. $50 and up (potentially way up) chisels (Lie-Nielsen, Blue Spruce,
Veritas) are probably all outstanding. I wouldn't know, I don't own any.

At the $15 price point, some are decent, some aren't. The Buck Brother's
chisels that are made in the USA are generally regarded as having decent
steel. Some are rumored to have less flat backs than others. I have a 2" one
that I like just fine (except that the handle is damnably uncomfortable where
the striking cap meets the plastic; the blade, however, is well made).

Somebody I knew had a Narex chisel at the $15 price point that wouldn't hold
an edge well. I understand that Narex is generally considered reputable, so
maybe that's an aberration, or maybe they've gone downhill.

Point being, the midrange is kind of terra incognita for quality.

~~~
alacombe
I didn't say _chisel_ , I said _chisel set_ , ie. 3 or 4 chisel for $15, which
once you factor Amazon's commission, import, is probably a $2 or $3 set from
the Chinese factory.

------
lizardwalk5
I haven't gone through the 152 past comments so apologies if this is dupe. but
recently I was on amazon to buy something and the original price was like $17
but it tried to snag me by presenting a deal like $12 so I added it to my
cart.

I think I might have misread the countdown clock which appeared to be like
5hours (maybe it was 5 min??). but later when I returned to the cart (less
than 5 hours later but more than 5 min later), I had a note saying I had less
than 2 min to make the purchase) which I thought I completed in time but was
charged full price regardless.

maybe this is a new feature(?) and buggy but I thought it was quite misleading
and confusing. I still bought the product b/c it was useful to me but the
pricing mechanism could have been more transparent.

------
wessorh
This week I ordered from Amazon a 4tb Flash Drive. What arrived in 4tb
packaging was a 250Gb flash drive with the manufacturer's label removed.
Amazon did replace the fraud drive with a proper one.

------
techslave
what they didn’t say is that amazon also created online shopping as we know it
today. perhaps created is too strong but certainly they have set the bar.
(focused specialty stores like mcmaster aside)

the online shopping experience was theirs to ruin. which they have. i think
it’s almost intentional that buying from the marketplace is a crapshoot,
usually to be avoided. it’s a win win for amazon.

it’s not surprising that the experience is poor these days. when you are a
virtual monopoly that’s what happens. it is surprising that there’s no real
competitor taking advantage.

------
oliwarner
Google ruined it.

Once upon a time if I wanted to buy something, I would stick its name in
Google and click the Shopping tab to find the cheapest. Often a random online
retailer. Products and prices were scraped from the internet like any other
organic SERP.

Then they started charging for access. The number of suppliers decimated. It
was no longer competitive.

That allowed Amazon and eBay to become the bazaars they now are, including
what TFA is talking about.

------
gjm11
Everyone (well, in some sense of "everyone") complains about the danger of
getting counterfeit goods from Amazon. I've personally never noticed goods
I've bought from Amazon being counterfeit, but I none the less feel like
they've wrecked what used to be an excellent online shopping experience in a
different way.

If you search for anything that isn't (1) a book or DVD or (2) a specific item
from a specific brand, you are likely to find that the top, oh, several
hundred search results are near-indistinguishable things presumably drop-
shipped from China, each of which is supposedly made by a company with a weird
six-letter all-caps nonsense name. Perhaps some of these are actually
excellent products, but the only way to tell whether they're any good is from
the Amazon reviews, and we all know how reliable _those_ are.

I want a checkbox that says "only show me products from manufacturers with
names I might recognize" or "don't show me anything that is shipped directly
from China" or something.

(Not because there is anything wrong with things being made in, or shipped
from, China. And these _might_ , for all I know, be excellent products. But I
have no way I actually trust of knowing whether _these particular goods_ are
actually bads.)

Random example: I was recently looking for an external USB-connected DVD
drive. If I put <<<external usb dvd drive>>> into Amazon UK's search box, the
"manufacturers" I get on my first page of results are: Rioddas, Rioddas,
Patuoxun, Patuoxun, Oudekay, Asus, Oudekay, HOCOMO, LG, Rodzon, LG, PIAEK,
Patuoxun, Amicool, Blingco, Inpher. This is actually an unusually _good_ case:
LG and Asus are "real" hardware vendors. So far as I can tell, the others are
all Amazon-only pseudo-vendors.

------
bookofjoe
"Birkenstock quits Amazon in US after counterfeit surge"
(2016)[https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/20/birkenstock-quits-amazon-
in-...](https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/20/birkenstock-quits-amazon-in-us-after-
counterfeit-surge.html)

------
antidaily
"the whole shopping experience is saturated with caprice and uncertainty". So
very true. UNLESS I already know what I want. then, it's by far the easiest
from checkout to delivery to possible returns. But if you're looking for a
"robot toy for 5 year old", good luck.

------
vxNsr
More and more I'm finding myself trying to find other ways to shop for things.
A recent example is ice skates, I need a new pair, but no matter what I search
for I can't seem to find anything on amazon with good reviews or a brand that
I trust. At this point I'm probably gonna end up going to dickes and buying
something in store even though it's a little over my budget, I just don't
wanna play the return game. Plus, it seems at least in this case, most of the
options aren't available on prime, so shipping in both directions is gonna
cost.

~~~
bpicolo
I’ve definitely reached the point where I’ll only make Amazon purchases for
specifically branded goods. I tend to use social media networks to find
product recommendations, like Reddit. There’s no question that some brands pay
people to subtlety advertise there as well, but it usually feels easy to get
through to the truth on hobbyist subreddits

------
ilamont
Regarding the counterfeit problem: Amazon has a program called Transparency,
which has been in development for some time:

[https://brandservices.amazon.com/transparency](https://brandservices.amazon.com/transparency)

The basic idea: Vendor places unique 2D barcode on each unit of a branded
product, only products with those barcodes get placed into Amazon warehouse
inventory, consumers can scan the barcode themselves to verify it's legit.

It's restricted to trademarked items, though.

------
TheLuddite
Well, I never shop from Amazon, I'd rather use a specialized online shops or
online storefronts of the company directly(ie TM Lewin for shirts)...

Main reason is that I'm not used to Amazons' shopping experience and it's huge
selection of items, once I tried buying a travel trolley and felt overwhelmed
by the huge choice, so I went to the shop and bought one in person after
inspecting it visually.

------
throwaway98121
There’s generally an anti Amazon post here often, especially so when Amazons
stock starts trending upwards.

I don’t have problems when I shop on Amazon, and their instant video
collection let us cut cable. We do have a boomerang subscription for another
$5 a month for the kids. Last Christmas, we did purchase All Clad cookware,
and one of the items was damaged, like literally a hairline crack. I called
amazon and they sent the replacement with next day delivery. Pain in the ass
but the only defective product I’ve had from them since 2015.

Imo there’s generally an anti Amazon article by one of these media sites each
week. I’m not sure how true it is the writing are, but to say Amazon ruined
internet shopping sounds pretty inaccurate and laughable. I grew up in
Bellevue, WA but many years ago left for the Midwest. I’m not sure if there
are some better services that blow Amazon out of the water used by these
media, east/west coast elitists or if it’s just the anti corporate hate train
of smearing companies that get too large and founders get too rich.

I suspect Amazon has millions of shoppers each day and these threads just turn
into the angriest crowd of the 100 or folks who didn’t like their experience.
Out of millions of shoppers per day, a hundred or even a few thousand angry
customers are a rounding error and probably well within their customer
satisfaction metrics. Hence, Amazon doesn’t change how they sell things or
their delivery promises.

~~~
tracer4201
There’s an anti apple or Facebook post just about every week too. Not all of
these companies are equal, but there’s just a general pattern of crap over all
big tech.

There are clear examples of carelessness or downright nefariousness (see FB),
but there’s also a complete lack of government regulation.

They’ve had crazy growth or valuations in the past several years. There’s a
lot of hateful sentiment driven by that, imo. People get jealous.

Amazon may have 1000s of misses among millions of customers, but those people
are the loudest when it comes to writing their opinions.

I do think outlets like the Atlantic are inherently against Amazon and see
Bezos being too powerful. These articles are less objective and more
politically driven.

Just my 2 cents

------
JJMcJ
I order from specialty merchants or manufacturers when I can.

Books I trust from Amazon. The rest, not so much.

~~~
throwawaymath
In my experience, many of the books I've purchased from Amazon are actually
illegally exported reprints from India. Those books tend to not make that fact
obvious or even known.

~~~
lozenge
There's nothing illegal about importing books. "The first sale doctrine,
codified at 17 U.S.C. § 109, provides that an individual who knowingly
purchases a copy of a copyrighted work from the copyright holder receives the
right to sell, display or otherwise dispose of that particular copy,
notwithstanding the interests of the copyright owner."

Labels like "not for sale in the US" are aimed at distributers and stores, but
are not legally enforceable.

~~~
roywiggins
Grey market textbooks saved me pretty good money in college. But they're only
good if you know that's what you're getting- the print quality is lower,
usually not in color, worse paper. Still a good deal if you just want the
content.

------
iheartpotatoes
Amazon doesn't sell Everlane, Gustin or Allbirds. Three clothing line's I've
bought from over the past 5 years (more recently Allbirds).

IMHO /gets on soapbax/L

I think Amazon has burned EVERYONE who has used it, and would argue it has
taught us to become more savvy shoppers.

The three companies I list go out of their way to be transparent about their
products. This builds trust and loyalty. The faults of Amazon (and Yahoo!
Shopping in the early 2000's) led to the emphasis on these new digital-
shopping virtues.

It sucks. Every time I buy something on Amazon, I'm always suspicious if I'm
going to get what I ordered. 95% of the time I'm satisfied, but ironically
only because I buy fewer things. But I'm glad that more and more companies are
going out of their way to validate themselves in the same way brick-and-mortar
stores are authentic.

------
kerng
The biggest reason I'm not shopping at Amazon as much anymore are the scams
and fake products. It's really annoying.

------
timonoko
There are others, but they are much worse:
[https://youtu.be/61sN42E2WbE](https://youtu.be/61sN42E2WbE)

------
draw_down
I had a string of issues buying from amazon and decided to just stop. Several
things just never showed up and 4-5 weeks after I ordered I’d quietly receive
a refund. One item I really needed, they never shipped to me. I signed up for
Amazon prime to get the expedited shipping for the item, then when I didn’t
get it they gave me a free month of prime in compensation. Gee, thanks.

My confidence that I’ll actually receive something I buy from them is low
enough that I don’t think it’s worth it to buy from them, plus the store is
full of counterfeits.

I don’t understand why people like buying from them so much, in my experience
it’s markedly worse than almost any other e-commerce store. The whole selling
point of e-commerce is convenience, but transacting with them is not
convenient and their customer service sucks. What’s the point? This whole idea
that they’re fanatically customer-obsessed, I just don’t see it.

------
datavirtue
Amazon simply delivered the online shopping experience everyone wanted. In the
beginning, you would scour the net looking for decent retailers and then get
barraged by shipping charges and delivery times that drained all the value.

Amazon's focus was on fast and free shipping, removing the friction from the
experience. Having scratched that itch, they got the scale benefit of reviews.
Gold for the consumer. Retail is based on a specialist buying products
customers want and ensuring and backing up quality. Amazon made that into a
digital platform. The other retailers lost site of thier value and took
customers for granted. That was why they didn't recognize the opportunity.

------
CyberDildonics
Hyperbolic statements with question marks make terrible headlines?

~~~
eeZah7Ux
Ending a statement with a question mark is also bad grammar.

~~~
CyberDildonics
Yes, it is a very obnoxious trend, this is the point I was making.

