
Homeopathy 'treatments' must be labelled to say they do not work, US gov orders - DanBC
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/homeopathy-treatments-must-be-labelled-to-say-they-do-not-work-us-government-orders-a7429776.html
======
empath75
This is long past due.

I'm on a facebook list for dads, and after it came out that a homeopathic
teething gel _killed 10 kids_
([http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/19/health/teething-
remedies-i...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/19/health/teething-remedies-
infant-deaths.html)) someone asked if it was worth the risk to keep giving to
his kids, since it worked.

I tried to explain to him that homeopathic medicine is either 1) Nothing, if
they diluted it 'correctly', or never bothered to put the poison in there to
begin with or 2) Poison, if they failed to dilute it properly 3) Maybe some
kind of actual medicine, in which case it's not actually homeopathic.

There are no other options.

He responded: "Well, it seemed to work for my kid, so I'm going to keep using
it."

~~~
Alex3917
> Nothing, if they diluted it 'correctly', or never bothered to put the poison
> in there to begin with

There are both high-dilutionists and low-dilutionists within homeopathy.[1][2]
I'm not saying you should run out and buy a bunch of homeopathic remedies or
whatever, but also realize that the mainstream 'skeptic' account of homeopathy
is not especially accurate.

Also realize that the latest scientific research on food allergies involves
homeopathic-like mithridatism, so even though the idea of a like-cures-like
high dilutionist treatment isn't anywhere near a universal panacea, it does at
least appear to work in certain limited cases.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/History-American-Homeopathy-
Academic-...](https://www.amazon.com/History-American-Homeopathy-
Academic-1820-1935-ebook/dp/B01KI63DYU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479752156&sr=8-1&keywords=academic+history+of+homeopathy)

[2] [http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-
abstract/202602](http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/202602)

~~~
nommm-nommm
Woah, are you seriously comparing immunotherapy to homeopathy? One has no
basis in reality and no known mechanism of action. The other has a solid
scientific and biological foundation behind it. Nor is immunotherapy the
"latest scientific research," its been around for decades.

James Randi famously starts out talks swallowing an entire bottle of
homeopathic sleeping pills. He's not dead yet despite being almost 90.

~~~
Alex3917
> James Randi famously starts out talks swallowing an entire bottle of
> homeopathic sleeping pills.

And that's exactly why I posted my comment, because it's wildly irresponsible
to post comments leading people to believe that they can do the same thing and
come away unharmed. The fact is that if you chug a bottle of 3x diluted poison
ivy oil then you're almost certainly going to die. And not because it wasn't
diluted properly, because it had other ingredients, etc.

Most homeopathic treatments on the market today are highly diluted. But not
all. And since historically there was more of an even split between high
dilutionists and low dilutionists, it's not unlikely that in the future even
more low dilution homeopathic products will come on the market. So when you
post shit that's going to come up in Google for the next twenty years that's
implicitly encouraging folks to try some stunt that could easily get them
killed, don't expect to not get called out on it.

~~~
nathan_f77
> if you chug a bottle of 3x diluted poison ivy oil then you're almost
> certainly going to die

Haha ok, yes, you have a point there. I guess it is really dangerous to assume
that all homeopathic remedies are pure water, because some of them aren't
actually diluted that much. Some of them still contain poison.

------
mb_72
This is excellent news. I am slightly ashamed to admit that an ex-g/f once
convinced me to go to a homeopath to try and treat my Crohns, and back then I
was completely ignorant of what that meant. Some hundreds of dollars later and
a couple of weeks of taking some alcohol with water, carefully measured out in
a teaspoon daily, I began to finally realise I'd been had. I wince now, but
that was the first time I looked up information on homeopathy. Now, I'm not
hugely intelligent, but I'm no dummy either, and have a reasonable education
and understand of science, the scientific method etc; through pure ignorance I
ended up handing over some cash and having a little bit of hope my health
would improve. If there is something staring people in the face, people who
are in my position might save their money and time.

FWIW, the only reliable 'treatment' I've found for my Crohns is pizza. And I
guess even this is 99.5% psychological!

~~~
SixSigma
My Crohn's went into total remission as soon as I stopped consuming alcohol.

~~~
mb_72
I never drank when I was first diagnosed, and didn't for some years
afterwards. Now I sometimes do, but whether I do or don't there is no
noticeable influence on my illness. Still, if you have found something that
seems to work, you have nothing to lose by keeping at it (except if you love a
beer!)

~~~
SixSigma
I love beer.

But I love not spending days in hospital more.

:)

------
keeptrying
In a post-truth world, this might make the treatments MORE popular. :-/

~~~
astrodust
Is it just me or is misinformation some sort of virus that slowly spreads?

I've noticed a sharp uptick in people utterly detached from reality lately
where presumably the former checks to keep people grounded, like a critical
news ecosystem, or a robust education system, has imploded.

~~~
MandieD
You're not the only one - I've had this sense of a slow, but inescapably-
accelerating epidemic for awhile now. Tuesday before last was not a shock.

It feels like we're slowly falling off the trajectory of the Renaissance and
Enlightenment; avoiding fatalism about that is my main challenge right now.

~~~
pjc50
Two driving factors, I think: dominance of the advertising industry, and a
rise of "wicked problems" with no good comfortable answers. Global warming
leads this: would you rather believe we're on an inevitable path to doom, or
that everyone is lying to you?

~~~
bduerst
Take a step further: Human attention has become a currency more than ever
before, and pandering to human biases is one way media companies have learned
to earn that currency.

You used to need substantial capital to earn the reputation as a serious news
organization, but now the barrier to entry is a vaguely-authoritative domain
name and social media accounts.

------
yaakov34
In addition to everything said, please don't take homeopathic drugs on the
theory that "at least it's harmless." This usually happens when people try to
please someone (parents, friends) by "just trying" homeopathy. I made the
mistake of doing that, and it was definitely not harmless - the "medicine"
contained strong allergens which not only caused hives, but resulted in the
acquisition, for a few years, of allergies I never had before - apparently
this can happen with sensitization caused by strong allergens.

The homeopathic "doctor" was delighted. You see, the other thing in
homeopathy, apart from the belief in water memory, is the concept of most
disease as a type of itch ("psora"), which can erupt through the skin ("psora
miasm"). No, really, I didn't make that up, you can (with some difficulty)
find this stuff with Google. Since like cures like, allergens such as poison
ivy, which cause skin rashes, are thought to be curing internal disease, and
some homeopathic medicines are full of them, and are used as a complement to
the super-diluted ones. Stay away from that whole swamp.

~~~
heliumcraft
woah, this is new to me.. so they a ctually think these skin eruptions are a
good thing because the disease is being "cured internally"??

------
nsxwolf
"No scientific evidence this product works" will be ignored. "This product
does not work" would be more effective.

~~~
erl
I have some issues with the statement "No scientific evidence this product
works". To me it is toothless and not very convincing. What if the product
never has been tested scientifically? In that case, it might work...

However, if a label would say "10 peer reviewed and published scientific
studies find no evidence that this product works". Now that is convincing.

~~~
JadeNB
> To me it is toothless and not very convincing. What if the product never has
> been tested scientifically? In that case, it might work...

> However, if a label would say "10 peer reviewed and published scientific
> studies find no evidence that this product works". Now that is convincing.

I don't think that this is how medical labelling should work. If you want to
sell a product on the basis of its effect on your health, then the onus should
be on you to prove that it works, not on others to prove that it doesn't. In
this setting, I think that a presumption of guilt (ineffectiveness or
harmfulness) until proven otherwise is appropriate.

------
ZeroGravitas
Interesting to compare this with the current political story of fake news (or
climate change denial, holocaust denial, conspiracy theories etc.)

It seems we're just generally very bad at this stuff as a species.

~~~
VLM
We're actually very good at it, but we insist on doing it wrong a lot.

You're not going to rationally logically reason someone out of a position they
got into via completely irrational illogical unreasoning belief.

Now you might replace their irrational illogical unreasoning belief with
another like faith healing or anything an actor in a tv commercial wearing a
doctors white coat says is true.

As an analogy, in the history of mankind I don't think any Christian
Creationist has ever been converted to evolution by throwing scientific
journal papers at him. You'd have better luck setting him on fire or being
torn apart by lions in a Colosseum and even that mostly doesn't work. But
Christian Creationists DO convert to other religions every day, all the time,
plenty of currently Buddhists or Hindus or Pagans or Satanists or whatever.

------
balabaster
Slightly off-topic, but I can't help but recall a rather hilarious 9 minute
beat poem by Tim Minchin

"By definition", I begin "Alternative Medicine", I continue "Has either not
been proved to work, Or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call
"alternative medicine" That's been proved to work? Medicine."

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtYkyB35zkk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtYkyB35zkk)

------
tn13
Here are the must take next steps for US government:

1\. All churches, mosques, temples etc. to have a board outside their "Prayer
Does Not Work." 2\. All astrologers, tarot card readers, psychic readers etc.
to have a large bold faced notice "This does not work". 3\. All laws passed by
congress must begin with "This might have severe unintended consequences that
are bigger than the problem this bill claims to solve".

~~~
mstodd
It's scary how much power simply give to the government, and how thankful they
are that government officials who they've never met can make decisions for
people neither of them have ever met.

~~~
trav4225
Yes. There's a fine line between protecting people and becoming a full-blown
nanny state.

Safety is a good thing, but so is liberty.

------
zerognowl
I agree with others that homeopathy is woo-woo.

One of the oft-cited claims by practitioners is that water has memory[1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_memory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_memory)

This _sounds_ cute and it's probably true that water has some subtle hard-to-
reproduce property of retaining certain configurations, but even if this were
true, what's so great about it?

I'm not entirely convinced that a hard-to-reproduce configuration of water
will affect my physiology, and if it does, then this would have to be put
through scientific rigeur, which it is not, it's performed on blind faith that
it works.

~~~
trav4225
Don't you get it? It's all about the "ionic frequencies" which cleanse the
body of "toxins"! ;-)

------
larrik
How does this deal with the products that are basically just vitamins, but
marketed as "homeopathic" as an umbrella term?

~~~
ars
It's only if they want to claim it treats a particular thing.

They'll simply put the name on the label without an claim about what it does,
and leave that to books.

The regulation will do nothing.

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
The ones who already believe will think it's a government-pharmaceutical
industry conspiracy to discredit it. Like my mother.

------
hellogoodbyeeee
Potentially off topic, but Im trying to navigate the alternative medicine
world right now.

My mother in law just gave me a bottle of pills containing a Chinese herb
meant to treat hair prematurely graying. I don't mind trying it and finding
out it doesn't work in order to keep her happy but I've ran into some reports
that it can cause liver damage, but I can't gauge how reliable those reports
are. Any tips on how to find scientific research on things like this?

The product is called "Fu-Ti"

~~~
problems
Check Wikipedia as it usually links out to medical sites and offers a decent
summary in most cases. In this case Wikipedia links to
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3240794/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3240794/)
which appears to be an analysis of 25 cases. I'd say it's pretty damning and
avoid it personally.

Search PubMed there seem to be a few papers around indicating it's toxicity
and discussing it like
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22210538](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22210538)

------
seanwilson
Does anybody have any good links to impressively strong placebo effects of any
treatment? Or is it always just a slight reduction in reported pain?

These debates always devolve into how placebo is a proven effect and doctors
should prescribe placebos. Placebos seem to have limited effects though
(they're not going to cure cancer or a cold) so this feels like a red herring.

------
perseusprime11
How does Europe and Asia feel about this news?

From the wikipedia page:

"In Germany, to become a homeopathic physician, one must attend a three-year
training programme, while France, Austria and Denmark mandate licences to
diagnose any illness or dispense of any product whose purpose is to treat any
illness.[284]...

The Indian government recognizes homeopathy as one of its national systems of
medicine;"

~~~
1337biz
They realize that medicine is not black and white and that there is a reality
beyond peer reviewed studies.

------
snarf21
It is also about time we force this for vitamins too. The disclaimer of "not
been validated by the FDA to cure or treat a disease..." is a bunch of crap.
It goes beyond false advertising, it is straight up untrue claims. They should
be forced to do true double blind studies with several universities and show
tangible benefit or don't advertise.

~~~
13years
In the case of vitamins, these studies do exist, but they are already
prevented by law from referencing these studies to make claims.

------
heisenbit
From what I have observed in my life the mechanism of homeopathy has great
appeal to people who show some propensity to twisted thinking. Particularly of
the all/nothing kind and having trouble with keeping opposites sorted. The
problem seekers, the ones that instinctively reach out the most obvious wrong
solution.

~~~
ryuker16
idiots?

------
mstodd
I feel alone in thinking I don't want the government regulating any of this.
What's next? A prayer disclaimer as you walk into a church?

The people who buy this are probably the ones who can't afford real medicine,
and now regulation is going to make this even more expensive. If you think
this is the government trying to protect us against ourselves: it's not, and
that's not the role of government anyway. This is just an alternative medicine
attack to remove competition and keep the price of real drugs high.

~~~
scott_karana
Praying is free, and arguably a form of expression.

However, goods sold with the expectation of efficacy should _be controlled_
based on that promise.

~~~
duskwuff
Bingo.

Homeopathic treatments are simply _not fit for purpose_ , even by the
standards of ordinary products. If an engine oil failed to provide any
lubrication, or if an electric cord could not power devices attached to it, it
would promptly be withdrawn from the market. Standards should only be higher
for products that are intended for human consumption.

------
anilgulecha
India, on the opposite end, has a ministry specifically for such woo-woo
called AYUSH.
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_AYUSH](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_AYUSH)).

Only Ayurveda could possibly be looked at a little charitably, since it
involves use of potential active ingredients, but even there efficacy is
largely anecdotal, with barely any scientific rigor applied.

------
BJanecke
For anyone wondering if this is real
[https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_statements...](https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_statements/996984/p114505_otc_homeopathic_drug_enforcement_policy_statement.pdf)

------
SixSigma
“You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? -
Medicine.” ― Tim Minchin

------
pg314
They sometimes do work, because of the placebo effect.

~~~
baobrain
I doubt the placebo effect is present in teething babies.

~~~
vinay427
It may very well be present in the parents/caretakers of teething babies.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Having a young child will bring out the superstitious idiot in you.

Last night the baby went to sleep because I walked counter-clockwise while
singing lullabies? That's it, that's the only direction I can walk in from
here on out while putting her to bed. The kid ate her veggies with no
complaint because I was humming The Simpsons theme? It's now the official
meal-time song.

~~~
gknoy
These seem profoundly irrational, but one thing I've noticed is that young
kids are profoundly irrational beings. You will feel like a vulcan by
comparison. My kid flips out if I put the blankets on her in the wrong
layering order .... but "wrong" is different every night.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Mine's 9 months old; she doesn't care what I hum or how I turn. My examples
are 100% me being irrational.

When she gets older and starts having well-developed preferences, then I will
no longer be crazy - only my behavior will be, because I'll be in thrall to a
tiny crazy person.

------
halleym
ho·me·op·a·thy ˌhōmēˈäpəTHē/noun the treatment of disease by minute doses of
natural substances that in a healthy person would produce symptoms of disease

~~~
M2Ys4U
That's not correct. Homoeopathy doesn't contain _any_ of the purported
substance.

~~~
cnlevy
It _used_ to contain it.

~~~
M2Ys4U
My bank account used to contain money, I guess I'm homeopathically rich.

------
coding123
\-- Removed :)

~~~
dang
Please keep religious flamewars off HN.

------
will_brown
>doctrine of like cures like, a claim that a substance that causes the
symptoms of a disease in healthy people would cure similar symptoms in sick
people. Homeopathy is a pseudoscience – a belief that is incorrectly presented
as scientific. Homeopathic preparations are not effective for treating any
condition...

Isn't _like cures like_ the principle behind many modern medical therapies,
such as: flu vaccination; anti-venom; and immunotherapy for allergies.

Not saying this is wrong decision, but its always interesting to watch the
Government pick winners and losers. In this case their justification includes
" _many_ are diluted to the extent..." and " _in general_ claims not based on
science". So is that an acknowledgment products are based on science and not
diluted to the extent rendering them useless? On the other hand its great
watching members of congress explain why they refuse to pass laws require
labeling of food containing GMO, because they generally acknowledge GMO
_could_ be harmful to consumers but the science is still out and so until then
consumers shouldn't be making their purchasing decisions based on GMO labels.

~~~
arrosenberg
The examples you gave aren't 'Like Cures Like' in the way homeopathy works.
The things you described work by triggering your immune system to create
T-cells with a memory of the disease.

Homeopathy works by taking a chemical and diluting it, generally to the point
where it practically doesn't exist. Best case scenario, it's a sugar pill,
worst case, they don't dilute enough with something dangerous and you are
taking poison.

This isn't picking winners and losers, it's consumer protection that's
required for a free market to be fair to consumers. If homeopathic producers
follow clinical standards and proven that their products produce statistically
better outcomes, then they can call it medicine and sell it on the market.

~~~
will_brown
>Homeopathy works by taking a chemical and diluting it, generally to the point
where it practically doesn't exist.

Certainly I could be wrong it's just that "process" sounds a lot like
immunotherapy for allergies. I am not trying to lump homeopathy and
immunotherapy in the same boat by any means, but looking beyond the
differences in the two I think it is possible to be more open minded than
labeling the _like cures like_ doctrine pseudo science.

>This isn't picking winners and losers, it's consumer protection that's
required for a free market to be fair to consumers.

Like I said I don't disagree with the labeling, but that doesn't mean there
aren't winners and losers being picked. Sure its fair for consumers to know
homeopathy treatments haven't been tested (not unlike supplements require FDA
warnings), but they are still losers while others are winners and escape fair
disclosures to consumers (e.g. my example of no GMO labeling).

~~~
Kalium
> Certainly I could be wrong it's just that "process" sounds a lot like
> immunotherapy for allergies. I am not trying to lump homeopathy and
> immunotherapy in the same boat by any means, but looking beyond the
> differences in the two I think it is possible to be more open minded than
> labeling the like cures like doctrine pseudo science.

They do sound similar!

The items you cite work on the principle of training the immune system to
react to known pathogens in ways that allow an effective immunoresponse later.
Homeopathy works by diluting some compound to the point where you _might_ have
one molecule of it in a homeopathic dose and positing that this is a cure.

The former isn't "like cures like". It's more like an educational process,
based on an understanding of how immune systems work. The latter isn't really
"like cures like" either, because one molecule of anything in a teaspoon of
water isn't enough to matter to anything or anyone.

You're absolutely right. The processes do sound similar! They're just very
different in very important ways well past how similar they may superficially
sound.

------
Nano2rad
Homeopathy does work. Its mechanism is not understood, but it works. It may
not cure cancer, but it does work for less severe illnesses. Its working is
not placebo effect. People say it works by placebo effect, but without proof,
most probably just a guess. So the US gov order is wrong.

~~~
pat2man
Any evidence to back this claim up? From what I can tell the answer is no...

[http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/6860/has-most-
pe...](http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/6860/has-most-peer-
reviewed-research-on-homeopathy-given-positive-results)

~~~
Nano2rad
In modern medicine, the treatment is for disease; in homeopathy the treatment
is for symptoms and conditions. That means one drug treats one disease cannot
be basis of the trial. so they may not have been compared well in the previous
studies. Double blinded study also will be difficult because the practitioner
has to see the patient. So when considering studies, have to consider these.
The mode of action explained by homeopaths may be wrong, so could say it is
unscientific. This story is on the results and measuring it and results can be
measured scientifically.

If it is placebo effect, it will not be effective for multiple times at
multiple times in same person, could say there is personal bias. There are
many conditions like cold, migraine which have no definite treatment in modern
mainstream medicine, so there is no harm in experimenting homeopathy when
having these conditions. I believe it is better to get a diagnosis from
regular doctor first and then use homeopathy.

~~~
Oletros
So, curiously, no scientific test is adequate for homeopathy. How convenient.

But reality is that it doesn't work, it is just a big fraud

When you have any actual proof and no the same "Belieeeve!!!" call us

