
Show HN: I finally released that sheet music app I keep yammering about - dangrover
http://etudeapp.com
======
vaporstun
I'm really excited about the iPad app. Imagine sitting down at a piano,
putting a iPad where you would normally put sheet music, and playing away with
your app auto-scrolling so the musician never has to deal with a page turn.
Anyone who has ever played piano knows how amazing it would be to have that
eliminated. What a great learning device that would be!

Kudos and I eagerly await the iPad version!

~~~
mrtron
This app really does look like it is a match for the iPad.

I would consider doing this:

A) Make the iphone app free or 1$, get as many users as possible B) Approach
whoever owns rights to sheet music, music lessons, etc C) Allow them to sell
premium content through your app and you take 50% of the profits

~~~
pistoriusp
iPad users could just double scale the iPhone app.

~~~
squidbot
Except that the app scrolls the music along one staff. You'd still just get
one staff, and it would be gigantic. An iPad version that could show a whole
page would be much more useful.

------
squidbot
I like the app, and if there is indeed an iPad version, that would be
fantastic. I played with it a bit this morning and posted a review. Here's the
gist of what I said:

Pros:

\- The music font looks really good, very clean and readable.

\- The store navigation is fast and easy to use

\- The music scrolling/speed controls are very handy and easy to use.

\- Good initial selection of music.

Cons

\- On my 3G the update after a page turn is too slow, no matter if it's
continuous or turn mode. Often half the score isn't displayed yet, and it's
impossible to look ahead. This made it difficult to actually play to the score
at full speed. Would it be possible to do more aggressive caching/pre-
rendering to make it smoother?

\- You went to all the work to make a great store navigation UI, but the "My
Music" UI is cover flow only. Even after downloading just a few pieces, it was
clunky and slow to find anything. My Music desperately needs better
navigation.

\- The modal dialog that pops up in the store when done downloading is really
annoying, especially because navigation is locked as its preparing to display.
The download icon already has a badge to show the download status, why do I
need the modal reminder? It just disrupts the flow.

Suggestions

\- A very handy feature for students would be to show different colors for the
different hands in the keyboard view, and show what finger should be playing
the note.

\- A difficulty sort in the store could be handy. Or at least a "beginner"
category in the styles.

\- I realize I can use the volume switch, but a mute button in the app would
be nice. Especially in the iPad version where I may not be able to reach the
switch.

Kudos on shipping, I look forward to what's to come. With some improvements
and an iPad I could see this replacing a lot of sheet music, especially on the
go. Break a leg!

------
sant0sk1
$2.99? I really hope you raise the price. This app looks exquisite and it
provides immediate value.

Well done! The iPad version could be a game changer...

~~~
tom_ilsinszki
A lot of people rate iPhone apps when deleting them, so I think a low price
can really hurt your ratings. If an app is too cheap a lot of people, who
aren't that interested will download it. After, however, they realize they
never use it, they will delete it, and while they're at it, they might give it
2 or 3 stars. I think selling your iPhone app at a higher price could be
beneficial, as mostly passionate people will buy your app, who will probably
give it a 5 star.

I have not released an iPhone app (yet), but this is how I think of app
prices; tell me if you have other experiences.

~~~
Zev
That might be the case at $.99. But if you go up a bit (even to $1.99 or
$2.99), the amount of bad reviews like that decreases pretty quickly.

~~~
tom_ilsinszki
Do you know this from experience? I'm really curious how iPhone app customers
"work".

~~~
muhfuhkuh
Some patterns emerge from just taking a cross-section of the reviews to see
how app customers behave at certain price levels. Here's my biased,
inexperienced first blush at it:

1) Free users will destroy you in ratings, unless you are a universally known
brand that is basically repackaging a pint-sized version of their popular
website/application. I've seen people at the "Free" level say "I LOVE THIS APP
BUT IT HAS THIS ONE SMALL PROBLEM SO I HATE IT AND GIVE IT ONE STAR YOU CAN'T
PAY ME TO USE IT LULZY!" Freeloaders love free, but they will incessantly take
advantage of it and are generally ungrateful, which shows in their ratings.

2) At .99 cents, you get casual and one-off users who know the value of their
hard-earned dollar and will expect a relatively unreasonable amount of value
because of loss-leader devs that price their complex apps that way to move up
the charts. The 99-centers will conflate purchasing an item with an
expectation of constant content refreshes or perfection in updates, or they
will penalize. It's a false economy to try to appease these customers. Better
to just cross fingers and hope to make it up in volume (or in-app purchases).

3) At 1.99-2.99, things start to get interesting. Your reviewers begin to
appreciate the decisions you've made in the apps design or execution, give you
actual usable (albeit terse and/or a bit angry) feedback, and ratings are a
little higher overall.

4) At 3.99+, you are either a AAA game dev porting your blockbusters down to
the iphone/ipod touch, or you're an indie that has built a following by
selling volume pricing at first and then raising it up once you've cemented
your position on the charts. Your reviewers are spectacularly verbose in their
heaping of praise on you, and offer almost QA-level bug reports that you can
use for your updates.

I think the sweet spot for someone starting in the app store is $1.99-2.99 US,
plus a "lite" version with in-app purchaseable upgrade to the full version.
Perceived value with a teaser freebie. If your app is at all useful/fun, then
it'll gain an audience. I think alot of people just saw the "goldmine" app
store articles and thought they could make an app that was just like iFart or
iShoot "but cooler" and failed miserably.

~~~
allenbrunson
I mostly agree with this. I have two versions of my card game in the store,
one free, and one paid. I don't think it's possible to have a free app that
has a rating greater than about 3 stars, unless you are a huge company with
millions of downloads.

But based on what I've seen and read, I think my paid card game is atypical,
price-wise. I've seen very little difference in the number of sales, whether
the price is $0.99 or $3.99.

------
ax0n
This is quite possibly the first thing I've ever seen that makes me want an
iPhone. I hope you release something like it for real computers eventually.

~~~
madebylaw
I agree that this app would be awesome if it ran on real computers. It would
be amazing if the app could track the user's progress/ability using MIDI and
be able to show errors / redo problematic parts as well. More of an emphasis
on learning and improving than just playing. I have been wanting something
like this for a long time...

------
tom_ilsinszki
Were you the only one developing it? How long did it take? Love the app and
the video on the webpage, by the way.

~~~
dangrover
Luckily, I have a precise answer to this because I have this weird habit of
tracking every minute of my time on my own projects. Here's the breakdown on
Etude in hh:mm

Actual iPhone app: 210:11

Song converter: 72:52

Store (UI + server side): 82:23

Building site and designing marketing materials: 44:52

I did most of the work, but I did contract some of the graphics I had trouble
with to a designer, and I've taken someone awesome on board to work with music
companies and other "strategic" stuff for the future.

~~~
tvon
OT, but how did you get into that time tracking habit and what do you use to
track your time?

(not) Properly tracking my time is my biggest weakness.

~~~
dangrover
I use OfficeTime: <http://officetime.net>

I also wrote some Ruby scripts for parsing exports from it and making cool
graphs

~~~
Pistos2
Note to others: OfficeTime appears to be primarily an OSX app. They have a
downloadable Windows beta, but no immediately-downloadable Linux beta.

<http://www.officetime.net/download.html>

------
viggity
Good Job. Just know we're all expecting to see your sales numbers 1 month, 3
months and 6 months out ;)

Congrats!

------
darrell
One thing I didnt see in your FAQ was whether you make time shifts based on
time signature: 2/4, 3/4, 4/4 or tempo marking: allegro, adagio, etc.

Also - while I think the settings of .5x fast - 2x fast are user friendly I
would love to see a metronome and the ability to adjust beats per minute. As
someone who has done classical training and testing based on bpm I can say it
makes or breaks learning a piece.

I wouldn't put this on my iPhone due to legibility, but I would absolutely put
it on an iPad.

------
levesque
That made me want to play piano again. I sucked but it looks like using it I
could get better a lot faster.

An ipad version would definitely be a plus. Hope you got that planned ! :)

------
david927
I love it. This is exactly what I've been looking for.

But I don't own anything Apple. Is there an alternative coming, such as a web-
based version? I'll pay.

~~~
wenbert
I whole-heartedly agree. This can be done in flash/html5/etc + browser on a
mobile device.

------
WesleyJohnson
I don't have an iPhone or iPod Touch, so I can only comment based on the video
on your site - but this is ridiculously awesome. The app as well as the store
and website look very professional, which is a big selling point for me when I
do purchase apps. If the marketing website looks sub-par, I tend to assume the
app will be as well. Perhaps not a fair assumption, but it's just the way my
mind works.

Being that I play the keyboard/piano a little, but can't read sheet music I
have one idea: search for webpianoteacher or shawncheekeasy on YouTube and
watch a lesson or two of his. He teaches piano in way that is akin to "tabs"
for guitar players. This is how I learn what little bit I do know. I don't
know if the audience would be big enough to spend the time adding this as an
option or if it would be even be feasible, but I thought it worth a mention.

Kudos on what appears to be a job well done and best of luck with the sales.
If I end up getting an iPad, I'll be looking for an iPad version without
question.

------
dkokelley
Is there any way to create or upload your own songs? It looks like a very
polished app, but I'd like to be able to create my own songs, or even cooler,
edit songs to see what they might sound like if played differently.

Excellent job with the app. I will probably be downloading it soon.

------
davepeck
This looks extremely impressive and elegant. I'm excited to buy the iPad
version -- it's a perfect fit.

What format is the purchased music? The engraving is impressive, so my first
guess is that it's some part PDF and some part MIDI information + metadata to
match MIDI to PDF contents?

~~~
dangrover
It's its own format (engraving + metadata + midi). It actually uses optimized
PNGs, but the iPad version uses PDF.

I'm going to do a detailed technical overview on dangrover.com when I get a
chance

~~~
davepeck
Cool, I look forward to it.

I suppose one obvious next question is: did you do the engraving yourself?
What tools did you use? And: when can I purchase Rachmaninoff's Etudes? :-)

~~~
Daemmerung
Engraved via GNU Lilypond. <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1192384>

------
armandososa
You sir, are a genius. The app looks amazing, but your demo is simply perfect.
How many takes?

------
Poiesis
Strike one idea off my "opportunities" list. :). Well done. How long did
development take?

------
mikek
How did you make the video for the homepage? I like the circle that represents
a touch.

~~~
covercash
I think SimFinger is the app used to represent touch.

Atebits has a nice iPhone demo tutorial: [http://blog.atebits.com/2009/03/not-
your-average-iphone-scre...](http://blog.atebits.com/2009/03/not-your-average-
iphone-screencast/)

~~~
dangrover
Actually, I used my own app, PhoneFinger: <http://wonderwarp.com/phonefinger>

------
dc2k08
what restrictions have you encountered on the publishing of scores on the app.
I think sheet music is more locked down then actual songs. When I used one
sheet music service, it wouldn't allow me to store a digital copy of the song
I wanted, I could only print it once - if my printer jammed in the process, I
had to pay again. I asked the owner of the service why and he said the
industry was tightly controlled. He also said he wasn't allowed to offer an
unlimited download subscription for a monthly fee ala netflix etc which I
suggested he should do even though he wanted to.

------
alilja
This gives me that really excited feeling in my gut that I get when I see
something cool. I've always wanted to learn how to play piano, but I was
always overwhelmed by diving right in. This is why the iPad is going to be so
cool.

Do you have plans to do this for other instruments? I can see it being
enormously popular for guitar tab, especially if you can add your own tabs to
it.

EDIT: Additionally, I think $3 is a perfect introductory price. If you've
built a large enough following, you can leverage that to increase the price
(perhaps by offering updates/large additional music libraries?) at a later
date.

------
gcv
Very nice. Great initial selection, too. I grabbed the Art of the Fugue
scores, and I'll give them a shot later today. I've always had a lot of
trouble with reading the score and figuring out the fingering on 3+ voices in
counterpoint at the same time, and let's see if your app will help.

Minor nitpick: the composition labels are a little hard to keep organized. For
example: "Fugue 1". It does say BWV 846 underneath in the store interface, but
when scrolling around, it isn't entirely obvious that it's actually from the
Well-Tempered Clavier, book 1.

------
latortuga
You've made a pretty impressive _looking_ app. What is your feedback like?
What do your prospective users think of it? Without having used it, my first
reaction is that I think it would be pretty annoying to try to play a piano
while reading from an iPhone - constantly having to squint at a tiny screen
and a nightmare of scrubbing to practice sections of the song are two specific
complaints I can make right away. I'm interested to hear the reception of this
app.

------
Entlin
Dangrover: Do you plan to make this app work on both the iPhone and the iPad
(in real-iPad-mode) in the future, or will the iPad app be a separate buy down
the road?

------
devin
You are a life saver! I was looking for something exactly like this and was
surprised there was really nothing good out there. This is great. Thanks!

------
daok
I am not a pianist but loved the way your application is made. Your website is
very selling. Nice video, nice design. I am impressed.

------
nathanh
Wow, nice work. I think $3 is way too cheap, especially compared to piano
lessons. I'd easily pay $50 (I'm an Android user though).

~~~
cmelbye
Actually, the average price of a paid app in the Android Market is lower than
that of one in the App Store. Also, there is a higher number of free apps in
the Android Market.

Source: [http://androidandme.com/2010/02/news/android-market-has-
the-...](http://androidandme.com/2010/02/news/android-market-has-the-greatest-
percentage-of-free-applications/)

------
nirmal
There's been some research into using a glove with haptic feedback to help you
learn about which fingers should press which keys.
([https://wiki.cc.gatech.edu/designcomp/index.php/Mobile_Music...](https://wiki.cc.gatech.edu/designcomp/index.php/Mobile_Music_Touch))
Would be awesome to see this used as a peripheral for Etude.

------
Major_Grooves
Nice one. Bought it now before you listen to the guys here and put it up to
$50. £1.79 is a bargain! Now only if I had a piano...

------
fmeyer
Hey dan, I bought your app, a little bit expansive when we compare it against
other music app. basically I love the Idea, but in my opinion you should
improve the audio engine, I can hear some clicks and noises when much notes
are played together. about the music as itself are you use internally using
midi?

Regards and Congratulations

------
phlee
Truly stunning design & idea. On a similar note, I'm planning to work on a
music composition app for the iPad starting summer when I'm done with the
semester. It's basically an extension of an iPhone app called Symphony, which
still needs more work.

------
pchristensen
Holy cow, that's a well-made app. You dangrover are either a passionate music
lover, an excellent developer, or both. Kudos - I don't even play the piano
but I'm going to buy it just so that people that make software like this are
rewarded!

------
rev087
I don't play piano, I don't have a piano, but I bought this app just to see
the look-and-feel. Now I want a piano.

Congratulations for an awesome job, I bet this will be one of the first iPad
apps to be featured by apple once it's released.

------
vessenes
This is awesome. I'll buy it today, but I want to know when you're going to
add in some simple sampling tech so that the sheet music can respond when you
hit the wrong notes, or move the page ahead...

------
grinich
How to change the "Carrier" text for recording a demo:

[http://blog.atebits.com/2009/03/not-your-average-iphone-
scre...](http://blog.atebits.com/2009/03/not-your-average-iphone-screencast/)

------
threepointone
Fan-friggin'-tastic, I especially like the attention to detail. Good job! I
really suggest you kick this up to 5-10$ soon enough :)

[if we can wish for ponies, I'd love for a guitar version of this too :P]

------
wollw
I don't have a device this works on but the demo looks very well done. I've
been playing around with a similar idea but more along the lines of a front
end for music in ABC notation.

------
marcinw
Awesome! Just purchased this without even thinking about it. Would love to see
this app grow, supporting other instruments like saxophone, guitar, trumpet,
etc.

------
wesley
I thought the sheet scrolling was a little disorienting (too fast), but then I
saw you have a 2nd way of scrolling (note by note), much better. Great app!

------
louislouis
Now I want to learn the piano just to play with this app.

------
scott_s
I have to agree with everyone else and say this is fantastically well done,
and I think you underpriced it. I think $50 is too high, but $10 is good.

------
techiferous
There might be an opportunity to collaborate with the startup
<http://www.noteflight.com>

------
muhfuhkuh
Congratulations on already hitting the Top 100 Paid overall on the app store!
I'm sure in no small part due to HNs "super-influencers" :)

------
swlevy
Does the ipad have a microphone? It seems like that would open up a lot of
doors for this kind of app (and obviously the iphone has one).

------
gxs
All I can say is wow. Not only is the app super intuitive, but genuinely
useful and usable.

On top of that, you have a real eye for design.

Great job, I wish you the best.

------
sovok
Great app. I struggle reading notes while playing and the small keyboard is
really helpful.

There's also a bug in Für Elise, it ignores the repeat signs.

------
petewailes
Can you make a web-based subscription version? I know people who'd never get
an iPhone/iPad (no real need), but who'd love this.

------
Readmore
I got an email about it this morning and I picked it up. Haven't gotten a
chance to try it yet but thanks for making it.

------
edtromba
Looks very pretty. Nice job. I agree with the other poster about the low price
of $2.99 - that's way too low.

~~~
bbsabelli
I'm pretty sure I saw in-app sheet music purchases in the video.

If so, the $2.99 purchase price is irrelevant. In fact, if it has in-app
purchases, it should probably be $0.99, and only because I believe the app
store TOS say you can't charge if the app is free to begin with.

~~~
allenbrunson
It used to be that you couldn't have in-app purchases for free apps. At some
point Apple changed their minds, and now you can.

------
astine
Integrate a metronome and I'm sold on it.

~~~
ovi256
v2 seems to get easier with all the suggestions :) Keep up the good work.
Great app! Now if only I was a musician.

------
bricestacey
Is it just me or does the note play when it hits the left edge of the
highlight? This seems counter intuitive.

~~~
bricestacey
Yeah, the "flip page" setting definitely plays the note on the left-edge of
the highlight whereas the continuous setting plays it in the middle....

------
brk
Cool, my friend Brad told me about it this morning and I was checking it out
already. Pretty impressive.

------
savrajsingh
Impressive Dan! Nothing but praise for your app. Currently practicing
Moonlight Sonata. ;)

------
og1
I'm going to try this out tonight. Already bought a copy via a macheist email
I received.

------
Mc_Big_G
Super cool. How long did it take you to develop the app?

------
klaut
Great app! i bought it after just watching the demo :)

------
lambdom
Download on the appstore button doesn't work for me.

------
bho
does this auto scroll as you play? that would be the real killer feature! it
looks great.

------
barmstrong
Nice work man, congrats!

