
Why Aren’t Rich People Happy With the Money They Have? - gscott
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/12/rich-people-happy-money/577231/
======
lisper
A while back I noticed that my HN karma was rising at a rate that would put me
on the leaderboard, so I decided to make an effort to submit content and post
quality comments just to see if I could crack the top 100. After a few months
I did it, and kept rising up to a high of 85 (today I'm #88). Then I realized
I was spending way too much time on HN, and how easy it was to fall into this
trap of thinking I was doing something worthwhile just because people were
upvoting me. There is something visceral about looking at a _number_ that you
have somehow convinced yourself is a measure of your value as a human being,
and seeing that number get bigger, even if at the end of the day that number
is utterly meaningless. And, of course, when it comes to money the number is
_not_ meaningless, which makes the effect that much more powerful.

BTW, money is not just good for buying material things. You can spend
arbitrary amounts of money on philanthropy and political donations. Once you
start to do that, a lot of people start to want to be your friend. That kind
of attention and deference can also be a very powerful drug.

~~~
eigenvector
I agree. We have been conditioned to use wealth - which is neatly expressed as
a 1-dimensional value - as a proxy for merit.

If we are asked to do something that in abstract we would consider stupid or
pointless, but is now accompanied by a large amount of money, we accept with
the presumption that no one would offer so much money if it weren't very
important.

Money provides a very simple, neat way of valuing every item or service on
Earth. Deceptively simple.

~~~
eklavya
> neat way of valuing every item or service on Earth

Isn't that the very concept of money? :)

Edit: newlines

~~~
EADGBE
Yes, the problem is that people associate _what you have_ with _what you are_.
Which are not the same thing. And therefor, make money the root of all evil
today.

If we traded in goats, it'd be how many goats you have. It doesn't matter at
all the medium, as long as the value is tenable.

------
antognini
There was a well written comment on Reddit a few years back about how your
life changes at different levels of wealth:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2s9u0s/what_do_i...](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2s9u0s/what_do_insanely_wealthy_people_buy_that_ordinary/cnnmca8/)

The main gist was that in the $10-30 million range you can live a comfortable
life without having to worry about finances again. In the $30-100 million
range you can start doing "rich people" things like have a private jet (though
this might be a stretch at the low end), have multiple residences in expensive
parts around the globe, have personal staff, etc. After that level of wealth,
more money doesn't really get you material things anymore, so much as
influence and access to other important people.

~~~
10122018
> in the $10-30 million range you can live a comfortable life without having
> to worry about finances again

This statement strikes me as very disconnected from the reality that the vast
majority of people on this planet live in, and honestly, a little bit
irritating. I'm well aware that many here on HN would be millionaires, but as
somebody who grew up in poverty and is now a full-time uni student with no
savings in the bank, and no safety net, I wouldn't describe my life as
comfortable, but I'm not starving or sleeping on a park bench either. My
largest expenses are rent, food and medical expenses. If somebody were to give
me a hundred thousand dollars to invest, I am quite certain I could live
comfortably for the rest of my life. I'd never own a Ferrari, but why would I
need to?

In other words, I think your comment reflects the very problem that the posted
article is discussing. To me, the idea of needing $10 million to be
comfortable and not have to worry about finances seems absurd. Unless your
idea of a comfortable life involves owning a luxury car, or renting a $2,000 a
night suite. I live on what many here would consider to be an extremely low
income, and the only thing I feel I'm really missing out on is desperately
needed dental work, and even that would be measured in thousands of dollars,
not millions.

I apologise if my comment sounds harsh or impolite. It is not intended to be.
I'm just amazed that anybody would think they need $10 million to be
comfortable.

~~~
rgbrenner
100k * 10% = 10k/year.

10% is about the best return you can count on (very optimistically) I don't
know what country you live in, but 10k in the US, even for a single person,
would put you far below the poverty line. No way you could afford that dental
work after you pay rent on that. And let's not even talk about all of the
other huge expenses that will come up later in your life.

$10m * 3% = $300k/year

That's a high end salary in the US. You could cut this number in half, and
that would be ok too IMO. Less than some developers make. But you can buy a
reasonable house, car, etc. Not a farrari though, unless you're irresponsible.

If you actually intend to live on this money _forever_ , then the return you
receive is really the maximum you can spend. And that's really not as much as
you would think. Especially when you figure there will be some years where you
won't earn anything (during recessions).

Again, if you live in an expensive country like the US. If you live in a poor
country, maybe 10K is enough. But this article and these numbers, aren't
really about that situation.

~~~
CalRobert
Am I weird? I spent a year living somewhat frugally (still enjoyed myself,
still took a trip now and then) in San Diego and spent about 20,000. That was
only my share tbf, my wife covered her half of expenses. We had a flat in a
nice neighbourhood, shared an old but decent-condition car, took one trip to
New England that year..

We had obamacare which helped a lot.

I see people on HN talking about needing massive amounts of money to live and
I just wonder where it all goes? What's it for?

~~~
jgh
The massive amount of money basically sits in an investment account and
generates dividends to live off of. That's what people are talking about. In
order to have a salary they're used to they need like 20-30x the cash in the
bank to generate it (preferably a bit extra to keep up with inflation too).
Otherwise if you weren't using it to do that presumably you'd eventually run
out of money and have to go back to work (except now you're old and 30 years
out of date)

~~~
10122018
Yes. What has become clear to me in this discussion is that some people, when
talking about being "comfortable", are talking about maintaining a much more
lavish lifestyle, funded by passive income, than many people like myself, are
used to or feel that they need. For many, comfort is simply feeling like they
aren't at risk of starving or becoming homeless. That's the definition I'm
working with, but it's clear to me that others are talking about something
different, as you have articulated in your comment. Thank you.

~~~
icebraining
I think one of the disconnections here is that you are talking about extra
cash (over what you currently earn), whereas rgbrenner (and probably others)
are talking about all income.

And I think they have a point: $100k is a lot of money, but what if you got
sick and couldn't work anymore, ever? Wouldn't you be at the risk of starving
or becoming homeless if you had to stretch that over 30 or 40 years?

~~~
10122018
> I think one of the disconnections here is that you are talking about extra
> cash (over what you currently earn), whereas rgbrenner (and probably others)
> are talking about all income.

Agreed.

> And I think they have a point: $100k is a lot of money, but what if you got
> sick and couldn't work anymore, ever?

That's a fair point. I don't really worry too much about getting sick and
never being able to work again ever. I think some of this comes down to the
level of risk that each individual is content to live with. If I had children
or a family, perhaps I would be a lot more worried.

------
pmoriarty
Some thoughts from Seneca:

 _" Let me share with you the saying which pleased me to-day. It, too, is
culled from another man's Garden: "Poverty brought into conformity with the
law of nature, is great wealth." Do you know what limits that law of nature
ordains for us? Merely to avert hunger, thirst, and cold. In order to banish
hunger and thirst, it is not necessary for you to pay court at the doors of
the purse-proud, or to submit to the stern frown, or to the kindness that
humiliates; nor is it necessary for you to scour the seas, or go campaigning;
nature's needs are easily provided and ready to hand. It is the superfluous
things for which men sweat, - the superfluous things that wear our togas
threadbare, that force us to grow old in camp, that dash us upon foreign
shores. That which is enough is ready to our hands. He who has made a fair
compact with poverty is rich."_[1]

 _" Do you ask what is the proper limit to wealth? It is, first, to have what
is necessary, and, second, to have what is enough."_[2]

 _" I do not regard a man as poor, if the little which remains is enough for
him."_[3]

[1] -
[https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Moral_letters_to_Lucilius/Let...](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Moral_letters_to_Lucilius/Letter_4)

[2] -
[https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Moral_letters_to_Lucilius/Let...](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Moral_letters_to_Lucilius/Letter_2)

[3] -
[https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Moral_letters_to_Lucilius/Let...](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Moral_letters_to_Lucilius/Letter_1)

~~~
rolleiflex
One of my favourite philosophers and one I try to follow the most, but the
unacquainted reader should be made aware before reading his commendations of
poverty that Lucius Annaeus Seneca was the richest man in the Roman Empire.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Thank you. I’ll pass on reading _The Bill Gates Guide to Being Poor and Happy
About It_ too :)

------
scarface74
Another perspective outside of the SV bubble. I grew up in a typical middle
class home - mother a teacher, father a factory worker.

Because of $reasons I really didn’t focus on my career until my mid 30s. I
bought a house in my late 20s in a new (statistically) middle class
neighborhood. All of the houses around the area and all of my friends were
middle class. Some houses slightly bigger, some cars slightly better but no
serious differences.

Then I got married and had (step)children who were use to going to school in
the more affluent part of town. When I was single, I really didn’t think about
the school system. I was making more by then and we moved to the more affluent
part of town. While we were on the bottom of the top quintile by income, since
by definition the top quintile is boundless, there is a much wider disparity
in income between the 80 percentile and the 95 percentile. I was exposed to
the lifestyle of people with a lot more money than I have.

I have a much nicer house (relatively - its nothing extravagant), in a better
part of town, making twice as much as I was but I actually _feel_ poorer even
though my income is more than double what it was 10 years ago and I’m much
more comfortable now.

We are not at all “rich” but as a software developer/architect with a working
spouse, our household income is more than 80% of households - again not
bragging, almost any experienced developer working in a major metropolitan
area would be in the same boat.

~~~
tokyodude
I've had the experience of thinking I'm doing well and then getting exposed to
another level of "well". Here in Tokyo, at least before 2008 but I think
still, there were lots of "expats". In my vocabulary, "expats" has a different
meaning than just "someone from another country". It specifically means
someone sent to a foreign country and "set up". A good example might be not
only do they make $300k to $1million a year but their company, trying to
reproduce their lifestyle back home in order to compensate them for asking
them to move abroad ends up renting them an extremely nice place, usually in
the $4000 to $8000 a month range and paying the rent for them.

There was an English language magazine who's ads targeted these "expats"
showing the apartments in that range and other service far far far out of
reach of anything I was making.

So in that sense I felt more like a failure.

That said I don't believe I'd always want more if I had 10x what I had now.
What I have now is not enough to stop needing an income. 10x is enough to stop
and then just do what I want without having to worry that I'd better have a
real job saving for when no one will hire me.

------
nathan_f77
> feeling wealthy is about comparison with others in your reference group

I guess the solution is to not hang out with other rich people, don't move to
a wealthy neighborhood, and just don't care about your social status.
"Ignorance is bliss".

I would be very happy if I had $200k in passive/investment income. That would
be a SaaS company worth ~$1.5M, or ~$6M invested in index funds. If I ever get
there, I hope I can resist the temptation to just keep going and waste my life
trying to make more and more money. I just want a small house, unlimited free
time, and no responsibilities. Then I'd like to spend time on hobbies, non-
profit work, and maybe start new companies to solve problems (but not for the
money.)

There must be lots of people on HN who are multi-millionaires from startup
exits. Did you notice a change in yourself, and you started to want more
money?

~~~
tonyedgecombe
In the UK it's been common advice to buy the worst house in the best
neighbourhood. Perhaps it should be the other way round for your wellbeing.

------
ThomPete
A rich man is just a poor man with a lot of money.

The biggest drug with having money is the opportunities that come with it.
Financial freedom is freedom to chose what you want to do with your life and
who you want to do it with.

That's one half of the drug. That your days suddenly can look like one long
adventure without too much repetition besides what you choose.

The apple in paradise is that other people have more than you and thus you
start comparing to richer people and make that the new standard.

Finding the balance between enjoying what you have and wanting more is such a
fundamental struggle in humans and start with the poor person without the
money.

~~~
snarf21
Right, all money ever buys you is time. The big problem most people have is
that they are miserable money or not. The best advice is to find something to
be involved in, find a hobby to master, find a cause to support. There is such
power in a supportive community of similarly focused people working for the
same end.

------
cyberferret
But isn't it the well oiled marketing and advertising industry that is keeping
us constantly unhappy and forcing us to compare our own (projected)
shortcomings against others?

My hypothesis is that wealthier people are even deeper in this trap, as once
you can afford nice clothes, accessories, cars, houses etc., you are
immediately exposed to others in the same (or higher) wealth bracket, thus
exacerbating these feelings of comparison and inadequacy. It is a self
destructive feeding frenzy that can never assuage itself.

~~~
combatentropy
It is not advertisers who are all to blame. Pride and envy predate magazines
and TV.

~~~
eeZah7Ux
So does cholera. But if you spend your work time trying to spread cholera you
get a bit of blame.

------
hprotagonist
I’m immediately reminded of the denouement of “This is Water”:
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PhhC_N6Bm_s](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PhhC_N6Bm_s)
. It’s become/ perhaps always has been a little trite or on the nose, but it’s
also not wrong.

 _If you worship money and things-if they are where you tap real meaning in
life-then you will never have enough. Never feel you have enough. It 's the
truth. Worship your own body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always
feel ugly, and when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths
before they finally plant you. On one level, we all know this stuff already-
it's been codified as myths, proverbs, clichés, bromides, epigrams, parables:
the skeleton of every great story. The trick is keeping the truth up-front in
daily consciousness. Worship power-you will feel weak and afraid, and you will
need ever more power over others to keep the fear at bay. Worship your
intellect, being seen as smart-you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always
on the verge of being found out. And so on.

Look, the insidious thing about these forms of worship is not that they're
evil or sinful; it is that they are unconscious. They are default-settings.
They're the kind of worship you just gradually slip into, day after day,
getting more and more selective about what you see and how you measure value
without ever being fully aware that that's what you're doing. And the world
will not discourage you from operating on your default-settings, because the
world of men and money and power hums along quite nicely on the fuel of fear
and contempt and frustration and craving and the worship of self. Our own
present culture has harnessed these forces in ways that have yielded
extraordinary wealth and comfort and personal freedom. The freedom to be lords
of our own tiny skull-sized kingdoms, alone at the center of all creation.
This kind of freedom has much to recommend it. But of course there are all
different kinds of freedom, and the kind that is most precious you will not
hear much talked about in the great outside world of winning and achieving and
displaying. The really important kind of freedom involves attention, and
awareness, and discipline, and effort, and being able truly to care about
other people and to sacrifice for them, over and over, in myriad petty little
unsexy ways, every day. That is real freedom. The alternative is
unconsciousness, the default-setting, the "rat race"-the constant gnawing
sense of having had and lost some infinite thing._

~~~
slededit
It’s a nice thought, and gives a sense the world is fair. But it doesn’t ring
true to me.

Some people are hot, and they know it. They do not feel ugly. Ditto for
intelligence.

~~~
bo1024
I think the key word is "worship". Not e.g. "value intellect" etc. but worship
it.

I draw a parallel to sports. It's easy for young athletes to "worship" ability
in their sport...to the point where, when you achieve success, you look down
on those who are worse than you and look up to those who are better. Reality
is that while athletic accomplishment is admirable it does not automatically
make you a good person and vice versa.

My experience with "intelligence" has been a bit similar although I have found
that smart people I encounter also tend to be wonderful human beings. But I
know correlation is not causation.

Anyway, my point is that I think there's an unhealthy "worship" vs a healthy
"value" of intelligence beauty etc, and DFW's quote makes sense to me from
that perspective.

------
tryptophan
One comment I read somewhere is that with increasing wealth you lose the
ability to make sense of the numbers anymore. What is the difference between
50 and 100 million in an emotional sense?

The fear of losing it all, however, stays the same no matter the amount, and
so the urge to keep accumulating doesn't go away despite a rational view that
would recognize that 100million is more than enough.

~~~
naasking
> What is the difference between 50 and 100 million in an emotional sense?

It's roughly the difference between being able to own a private jet. There's
probably always something spurring one on to the next level if you let it.

~~~
scarejunba
Seriously. Octopus cost $200 million. Anyone who wants her is going to have to
be a billionaire. There's always something out there you can't have till
you're mega-rich.

------
IllusoryReverb
I have had the sense that guilt plays a part in dissatisfaction with wealth,
whether consciously or subconsciously. The way the economic system is set up,
a person can only have money, wealth at the expense of others. I only have
what I have because someone else has been deprived of it. Its difficult to
enjoy something when at the back of ones mind, it is earned off the suffering
(real or imagined) of others.

I came to this conclusion one night whilst walking along the street some time
back. I wanted to buy myself a packet of fries. Not far from the door of chips
shop, there was a woman there with three children, laying down cardboard
preparing to sleep for the night. The sense of what turned out to be guilt and
shame that came upon me was palpable. It actually hit me that I could casually
walk in and buy myself something I didn't really need whilst here was a woman
with three kids sleeping on the street with nothing.

Investigating my feelings further brought about I had so much compared to
them. And what I had was not enough to make a real difference in their lives.
Further investigation and thought brought about the idea that this might be
the same not just for me, but for all people, getting progressively worse the
higher up the wealth steps you go. The basic idea being that as currently set
up, economics means that it is a zero sum game. In terms of money, either I
have the 100 dollars or you have 100 dollars, we cannot both have the same 100
dollars.

This means, (and I am open to being corrected) that what I have is at the
expense of another - my boss, my brother who is having a hard time making ends
meet, or all the others who have to walk kilometres to get to work to save on
money used in public transport.

My take away and current struggle is that at some point, in order to just
live, we have to find a way to deal with this feeling of guilt - which in my
case, took on the form of first denying responsibility and assigning blame on
others (government & other institutions, parenting, poor decision making, lack
of intelligence etc), or just ignoring it because 'there is nothing I can do'
about it because 'I also have problems and I dont have enough to make a
meaningful difference'. I still don’t have a good answer to this.

Thats my 2 cents.

~~~
drjesusphd
You might really enjoy this essay. It changed my life.

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ph7Enkr...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ph7EnkrHDRoJ:www.aaronsw.com/weblog/handwritingwall+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=se&client=opera)

I came to terms with ideas like this by changing careers to a profession
which, at least abstractly, benefits humanity. I've taken upon myself a
modern/global idea of "noblesse oblige". The fortunate have an obligation to
use their vast resources in a way that benefits others. We are fortunate to
live in the West during this time, but that also means we have access to
tremendous knowledge and ability that we are uniquely equipped to make good
use of.

Of course, I may just be fooling myself and the resources I consume would
still be better spent directly helping others.

I try to be clear that I'm far from a saint in this respect, but it's
difficult to discuss these things with others without inducing guilt and
defensiveness. I think these kind of things needs to be discussed though, so
I'm glad you brought it up.

~~~
IllusoryReverb
Thanks for the link to the essay. It captures the struggle I alluded to in my
comment rather well.

I find like my mind is resistant to actually going ahead and helping, the
aforementioned excuses rear their head and the justifications come hard and
fast and anything else seems like I am being an idealistic, wide eyed naive
hippy.

On some level I can recognize the need the writer points to, and what is being
said. I feel there is a flaw in my thinking and in how I am approaching the
world and living my life. Then the selfishness (is there a better word for
it?) stares right back at me. There is safety in its coldness. I recognize it.
I know it. I hate it too, but I know it. It is familiar. Leaving its cold
embrace is too scary.

I will be sharing the essay with like minded people when I can.

------
chmaynard
Seems like a rather superficial discussion of possible motivations for the
behavior of the most greedy among us. Articles like this may sell magazine
subscriptions but they don't teach us much that is useful.

------
brazzy
> Where did Norton find his rich people? For that particular study, an
> investment bank connected him with some of its high-net-worth clients. But
> Norton also told me that he had previously consulted with a pool of Dutch
> millionaires willing to respond to researchers’ questions

Sounds like that would impose a pretty hefty sampling bias.

I'm fairly sure there is a large pool of people who are very quite and quite
happy with the money they have, enabling them to focus on doing things they
love.

But such people probably won't show up in this survey.

~~~
hudibras
>Dutch millionaires willing to respond to researchers’ questions

The researchers didn't tell them what the questions were about ahead of time.

~~~
hycaria
And ? Maybe people prone to answering a survey from researchers have other
behavioral similarities and thus make the sampling is biased.

------
amriksohata
Bhagavad Gita Chapter 16: The Divine and Demoniac Natures TEXTS 13-15

The demoniac person thinks: "So much wealth do I have today, and I will gain
more according to my schemes. So much is mine now, and it will increase in the
future, more and more. He is my enemy, and I have killed him; and my other
enemy will also be killed. I am the lord of everything, I am the enjoyer, I am
perfect, powerful and happy. I am the richest man, surrounded by aristocratic
relatives. There is none so powerful and happy as I am. I shall perform
sacrifices, I shall give some charity, and thus I shall rejoice." In this way,
such persons are deluded by ignorance.

Purport:

The demoniac man knows no limit to his desire to acquire money. That is
unlimited. He only thinks how much assessment he has just now and schemes to
engage that stock of wealth farther and farther. For that reason, he does not
hesitate to act in any sinful way and so deals in the black market for illegal
gratification. He is enamoured by the possessions he has already, such as
land, family, house and bank balance, and he is always planning to improve
them. He believes in his own strength, and he does not know that whatever he
is gaining is due to his past good deeds. He is given an opportunity to
accumulate such things, but he has no conception of past causes. He simply
thinks that all his mass of wealth is due to his own endeavor. A demoniac
person believes in the strength of his personal work, not in the law of karma.
According to the law of karma, a man takes his birth in a high family, or
becomes rich, or very well educated, or very beautiful because of good work in
the past. The demoniac thinks that all these things are accidental and due to
the strength of his personal ability. He does not sense any arrangement behind
all the varieties of people, beauty, and education. Anyone who comes into
competition with such a demoniac man is his enemy. There are many demoniac
people, and each is enemy to the others. This enmity becomes more and more
deep-between persons, then between families, then between societies, and at
last between nations. Therefore there is constant strife, war and enmity all
over the world.

------
daxfohl
I disagree. I think the primary motivation is you can always lose it all, or
at least a lot of it. No matter how much you have or where you put it. The
more you have, the more you stand to lose, especially due to macroeconomic
shifts beyond your control, hyperinflation, war, etc. That's why what you have
is never enough and seems like 3x (twice as rich, plus 1/3 as a backup) would
be.

~~~
everdev
Yes, or even the fear of dropping a status or income level can be enough
motivation for some.

------
bisRepetita
>“The sensation of ‘being well-off,’” [...] “is not about fulfilling a
childhood dream of buying a sailboat or something; feeling wealthy is about
comparison with others in your reference group

When there is a debate about increasing % of taxes further for higher income
(often in the name of redistribution, reducing inequalities), I often hear the
argument that it will reduce the motivation for the higher income people to
keep working and keep contributing to society. I think the argument is wrong:
it's a social game, and if the same rules apply to all, they all can keep
playing the same game with the same motivation of outdoing their peers.

~~~
hueving
Rich peoples' reference group isn't limited to a single country though. There
is no way we can apply the same rules to all, unless there is a new global
order I haven't heard of.

See: the disaster of the US yatch manufacturing tax

------
segmondy
This is a stupid article, it's like making a case that an author is not happy
with their past works because they keep writing even after having a best
seller. Or that a director is not happy with their movie after having a
blockbuster and winning top industry awards because they keep creating.

~~~
tk75x
Your analogy is wrong. If you were to translate what the author of this
article said onto your author/director comparison, the author would keep
writing books because others have written more/better books than him and so
would the director keep making films in order to elevate their relative
status. The reason for always wanting more money isn't for the self-
satisfaction that creative types feel when they produce a work, but to elevate
your status above that of those around you.

------
agumonkey
I read "health" .. this article was confusing at first.

Wealthy people are as unbalanced as poor people, good to know. I believe that
a good group (friends/village) can tame that. You stop caring about your
posession when you care for the group and its joy fulfills you.

------
golergka
There is a critical component in such motivation that is not even mentioned in
this article. The more money you have, the more ability you have to change the
world around you.

Among many, many financially successful people I know, there are a LOT who are
motivated by money and competitiveness themselves. However, NONE of them are
founders of new businesses. (Real new businesses, that intend to stay in the
picture and actually do something for the customers, instead of ending up
acquihired or otherwise melted back into some comfortable corporate structure.
Most of tech start-ups are really far from this image, and are created people
who know exactly what their exit strategy is). These founders are always
motivated by their desire to change something in the world: they love the
field they're working in, and they love the product they're creating, and they
wouldn't miss it for the world. And yes, they want more money, because it's
the universal resource out of which they build the things they so love
building.

So, in other words, the headline of this article should have been "Why Aren't
New York Finance Executives And Other Thin Subset of Rich People We Got A Hold
Of Happy With The Money They Have".

------
seibelj
The more money and assets I accumulate, the safer I feel. This is one driver
that will likely prevent me from retiring early - the fear of destitution.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
The "one more year" problem, I'll just work one more year to top up my funds.

In reality I suspect most people have the decision forced on them either by
their employer, the jobs market or health problems.

------
Nasrudith
I had always assumed it was a matter of self-perpetuation given what I have
seen at lower levels with thriftiness and it holding despite being amply able
to afford it. Those who are in habits of saving and investing money will keep
on doing as an end to itself well past the actual needs.

The biggest score cards show a bit of priorities. Many wealthy industrialists
eventually turn to charities despite being ruthless out of concern for
legacy,spirituality, or a sense of noblise oblige.

I would like to think that if I got 'buying additional mansions doesn't make a
dent' \- obscenely wealthy I'd start funding major biotech research projects
both to do good and because lifespan is the limit anyway.

That is something that I've found a bit odd about the megarich - that we don't
see more throwing their fortunes away at biotech research given lifespan is a
limit far beyond - and most don't plan on giving full fortunes to their heirs
anyway.

------
8bitsrule
I'll buy this picture. Feelings of insecurity created by someone (anyone) who
has more than you fits in with 'keeping up with the Joneses'. Further
reasoning about irrational behavior is as unconvincing as science trying to
explain magic. (Which in many cases might be helpful in explaining the long
chains of coincidence that led to wealth, despite the often-fragile egos
involved.)

Some of the very rich try to invest in philanthropic causes. Studying the
magnates of a century ago can be helpful. (E.g. the story of T. B. Walker.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._B._Walker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._B._Walker)
) On the whole, today's ultra-rich seem less-inclined to give a damn (not
unprecedented in history).

~~~
ghufran_syed
"On the whole, today's ultra-rich seem less-inclined to give a damn"

That view seems inconsistent with this:
[https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/31/14-billionaires-signed-
bill-...](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/31/14-billionaires-signed-bill-gates-
and-warren-buffetts-giving-pledge.html)

~~~
Ensorceled
There are 2,200+ billionaires in the world. 14 is a blip.

------
jondubois
Interesting how most of the activities listed were related to meeting high-
status people. I guess this is probably the attitude that made them
billionaire in the first place.

------
theshadowknows
I can see there being some weird stuff that can happen. Say the Hilton girls
or Bill Gates or anyone who is exceptionally wealthy. Eventually you realize
there’s nothing that can be bought that you can’t have. And nothing with a
price that you can’t do. I guess that’s why some of them decide to go to
space. It’s a huge thrill ride. In my case, my wife and I struggled a lot.
Both from low income families. We struggled through college. I struggled in
freelancing and consulting with clients that didn’t pay or paid very late. She
has and continues to struggle with mystery health issues. But we always had
each other, and we make each other happy. Once my salary cracked over 100k/yr
it gave us a lot of breathing room. We’re less stressed. We can actually enjoy
life. We both smile more. But we’re both still relatively new to it. I’m sure
once your net worth is in the hundreds of millions or billions then there’s so
little to worry about that life can get boring.

------
tokyodude
The article said they interviewed people with at least $1 million net worth
but $1 million net worth isn't really rich is it? In SF you might be able to
afford a 1 bedroom studio apartment. I'm guessing the same is true in NYC,
London, much of Los Angeles, Tokyo.

Sure, with $1 million maybe you could retire in Cambodia but for most 1st
world people $1 million is not enough be able to stop working for someone else
and do what you want.

I guess that'S my definition of rich. It would basically be, can I afford to
have say a 3-4 bedroom apartment or house for a family of 4, be able to travel
2 or 3 times a year, and not have to go to work for someone else if I don't
want to. I'm not saying want to do nothing. I am saying to me "rich" equals
enough money to have no more income for the rest of your life and still live
like you're making enough to support a family of 4 without having to pinch
pennies.

I'm confident $1million is not even close enough to be able to do that in most
1st world countries.

~~~
ryanmercer
>Sure, with $1 million maybe you could retire in Cambodia but for most 1st
world people $1 million is not enough be able to stop working for someone else
and do what you want.

.

>I'm confident $1million is not even close enough to be able to do that in
most 1st world countries.

The average HOUSEHOLD income in the US is around 59k.

1 million is about 300k more than I need to retire today at 33 with a 3% safe
withdrawal rate assuming I never work another day in my life and never marry.
I only gross 34k a year.

~~~
dragonwriter
So, in other words, it's not enough to meet GPs threshold of not work for
anybody _and support a family of four_.

It's enough (by your description) to not work for anybody and support a family
of _1_ (at a level a little over to the US current median _individual_
income.)

~~~
ryanmercer
>So, in other words, it's not enough to meet GPs threshold of not work for
anybody and support a family of four.

I have a co-worker that supports a family of four, with a mortgage, on not
much more than I make.

Do they take fancy vacations? No.

Do they drive new cars? No, in fact they have 1 car.

Do they eat out, buy convenience foods, buy fast food? No, they make their
meals and enjoy them together.

Do they have the latest gaming consoles? No but his kids are both teens and
are still happy with 2-3 generation old consoles.

Do they wear new clothes? No, most of their clothing comes from second hand
stores, often barely warn.

You don't have to spend gobs of money to have a family. Loo at any number of
Christian denominations and you'll find people living quite happily with not a
lot of money going out, if you want to really see it look at many families
that are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints
(colloquially known as Mormons) and you'll see families larger than 4 that do
are quite healthy and happy, in the US, on household incomes well under
6-figures.

Simply buying food in bulk, buying used cars and buying clothing on sale
and/or second hand (and passing it down when it comes to children) stretches
money considerably:

\- 50lbs of rice $17.98 29,550 kcals

\- 25lbs steelcut oats $32.98 42,500 kcals

\- 15lbs potatoes $6.98 5,205 kcals

\- 5lb bag instant mashed potatoes $6.98 9,600 kcals

\- 25lbs flour $6.98 41,275 kcals

And for meat, if you buy as little as 1/4 of a cow at a time you get rather
steep savings. A quarter beef is anywhere from 80-100lbs of meat (a lot of
steak but mostly roast, chuck roast, 3-5lbs of short ribs and the bulk being
ground beef) for 6-8$ a pound. Buy a whole beef and you're talking 350lbs~ of
butchered weight at 8-9$ a pound.

~~~
mywittyname
Living costs drop dramatically when you don't need to work. The costs of
transportation and time-saving meals is pretty incredible. Ignoring
depreciation and interest, even a Civic costs thousands in gas, maintenance,
and insurance to run 40 miles daily.

Side note: the prices on your bulk beef sound pretty high. My local grocery
has ground beef at $3.29/lb, $9/lb is almost what they charge for t-bone
steaks. For cheap meat, I stick to whole chickens at <$1/lb or pork when it's
BOGO.

~~~
ryanmercer
>Side note: the prices on your bulk beef sound pretty high.

I'm talking about buying 1/4 or 1 whole specific cow directly from a farm that
gets butchered and wrapped for you, it's actually quite cheaper than the
grocery. The average cost per pound is absolutely higher for ground beef
because you're getting a LOT of steak and ribs.

For 1/4 beef you're talking like 50ish pounds of ground beef, like 20lbs of
various roasts, 40ish pounds of steaks and probably some ribs.

Yeah, you can get ground beef or ground chuck stupid cheap at the grocery,
especially if you're buying the big rolls of it. 2-5$ depending on the
quantity and fat content, but buy a 1/4 , 1/2 or whole beef gets you a ton of
steak, roasts, ribs.

------
skybrian
The paper is at [1].

It's by no means a random sample. (That would be pretty difficult.)

I wonder what you'd have to do to find the people who say "enough is enough?"
It seems they're not customers of this firm.

[1]
[https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=53540](https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=53540)

------
bunderbunder
_The High Price of Materialism_ by Tim Kasser is a good read. It's a popular
work that goes through a lot of research on how focusing on material
definitions of success can ultimately run counter to your emotional well-
being. The pleasure of a big new acquisition is fleeing, so you get stuck
forever chasing bigger and better highs.

------
Tade0
Wasn't it really about power from the get go? Money is a pretty
straightforward proxy for power and power(over people) is always relative.

To me it all plays out in a much weirder manner among common people in
countries that experienced rapid growth. Before my eyes my environment went
from that of brutal poverty to - sometimes very uneven - prosperity.

~~~
spunker540
That’s what Nietzche argues is humankind’s ultimate drive —
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_to_power](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_to_power)

------
dovvdkc
“For one study, Norton and his collaborator paid each respondent about 46
euros for every completed questionnaire. “You can run a survey on regular
people for like a dollar,” “

Hmm I refused to give my email to a cable provider for a $100 Best Buy gift
card (I was in Best Buy). At the time I thought who would trade their email
address for a lousy $100?

Now I know.

~~~
kaybe
Do you only have one email adress? I wouldn't give out the main one, but some
of the others.. or just make a new account somewhere and forward it to your
main, then delete it if it ever collects spam.

~~~
dovvdkc
I don’t like to give out my fake one either. Wouldn’t want my porn spam to get
diluted by COMCAST offers.

Actually you could learn a lot about me and who I am by cross referencing all
the places i’ve given my fake address to. Since I don’t want to create a
thousand fake addresses, I don’t give that out either for a mere $100

~~~
kaybe
I see, though $100 is not that little.. I like mailhero (mailhero.io) where
you can give out unique email adresses (free, but maybe better not for
important stuff) but of course it is not very hard to trace.

(It works like this: You have one identifier (eg smith) and then add anythingn
before the dot, like company.smith@mailhero.io), so the identifier is the same
in all cases.)

------
kamaal
Mostly because money has nothing to be with being happy, sad, healthy,
immunity from disease, depression, or death.

The utility of money is to make you comfortable, give your freedom, and take
of other things while you suffer though life.

Money or wealth should never be conceived as a hammer to down all nails.

------
sytelus
TLDR; Michael Norton did the survey of people with networth > $1M and most
said they need 2 or 3 times more. People with networth > $100M also don't feel
satisfied because they tend to answer the question "Am I better off than last
year?" by comparing to other folks who did even better than them.

It looks to me that if you are in $3M to $10M bucket, you have financial
freedom to live low key upper-middle class life. This is what Tim Ferris
refers to as "New Rich".

However when you are above $10M, something else happens. While you have
financial freedom, you are also just starting to taste _freedom of will_.
Sooner or later it might get annoying that you must wake up at 5 AM because
that's the only flight available OR that you can't get the penthouse suit
because someone more wealthier decided to book it out for entire year. You
still depend on publicly available utilities fiercely competed upon. Unlike
your peers with $100M you can't own GulfStreams or have $25M Malibu mentions
overlooking Pacific with infinity pools.

When you get to $100M, things change again. Now you do have little gulfstream
but it's far cry from private 747 with king size bedroom, office, bar and a
chef. Sure, you got that mention in Malibu but that large paradise estate in
Hawaii with its own beach and waterfalls is out of your reach. When you meet
your billionaire friends in blue waters of Greek island of Creet, your little
yatch looks like baby's first toy missing things like its own sub and helipad.
Life is good but not _that_ good because resources at your disposal have still
limitations to achieve maximum possible _freedom of will_. People tell you how
awesome you are but you keep finding new limiting ways you are restricted to
act by your will _every single day_.

I think its only above $3B that you are in realm of pure score keeping, the
quality of material possessions cannot be improved further and _freedom of
will_ is pretty much maximized. Now you are truly limited by time, and much
less by ideas. So until you get in to that top 1000 individuals, it's going to
sting one way or another.

~~~
scottlegrand2
This is very similar with what I tell people: that every time you put another
zero on your net worth, your world changes.

The follow-up is that you probably shouldn't be taking life advice for your
immediate situation from people who are more than one zero in either direction
away from you because they're giving advice for their world, not yours.

my personal financial life goal is never to be worth more than $10M and I am
knocking that go a lot of the park right now!

Life after $10M, from knowing people with that kind of money, just gets more
and more complicated and no one seems truly happy, as they drown in first
world problems.

~~~
HighPlainsDrftr
I hope so - I have been saying for a while, once I get to 10m, I'm going to
quit working and start focusing on doing things to help other people. I figure
4% = 400k, take 200k and reinvest it, and take the other 200k and use it.

Its christmas time, I'd like to go to my local box store and buy out the lay-
aways. Donate some hams and turkeys to the poor.

As long as I've done what I can to take care of myself and family, I think its
important to start helping other people.

One of our big flaws in society is we try to categorize people too much. That
leads to the wealthy looking down on others. Middle class looking down on
others. The poor looking down upon who they can. It is not necessary. Once you
have food, home, and some basic luxuries, all you need is to save for the
retirement days.

------
scotty79
I think it's possible that some people became rich because they were not
satisfied with money they had.

They are just still unhappy with money they have because nothing changed about
their happiness and their sources, they just got more money.

------
RickJWagner
I'm a regular participant on 'Bogleheads' forum. If forum posters are to
believed, there are quite a few high net-worth individuals there.

Many are motivated by 'the game'. But I am not depressed by this. On the
contrary, it seems to me that most take care to use their money in
constructive ways. They seek to find ways to build better futures for those
that will follow them. Some even pledge to give a bunch of it away, after the
great examples set by Bill Gates and Warren Buffet.

There are some bad apples, probably, but I think there are a lot more good
ones.

~~~
topmonk
Whether they are good people or not really depends on what they would do to
make their money, rather than how they would spend it.

The lengths one would go to to become rich rather then where a rich person
throws the breadcrumbs of what they already have truly defines them, and also,
what evil may be created in this world.

------
ralphc
I think this helps explain a question I've had for a long time, from reading
articles and from listening to second-hand stories from my CPA wife. The
question is "Why don't rich people just pay their damn bills?" I mean they
quibble and fight over $7000, which most can find in their couch cushions. It
means that they get behind in their game. Never mind it's not a game to the
contractors and drywall installers and plumbers they're screwing over.

------
salawat
I don't know about anyone else, but in the case I were hypothetically
independently wealthy, I'd still be miserable based on the fact that the
system was still stuck in a mode where doing something I'd done would be
required.

I don't believe "play or starve" economics are the be all, end all of human
existence, but I'll be damned if I can figure out a way to make it work
without just about everyone else being willing to " _come along for the ride_
" as it were.

------
2sk21
No matter how much money I acquire, it will not help me to understand a
mathematical theorem or become a master craftsman. Real wealth is what's
inside you.

------
skookumchuck
Some people enjoy making money. It shouldn't be a surprise that very rich
people got that way because they enjoy making money - and why should they
stop?

~~~
Wh1skey
The reason I enjoy making money is because I think of it as creating value for
others. For some reason, I just enjoy creating value for others.

~~~
skookumchuck
In a free market, money is made by creating value for others.

~~~
CamTin
...or by owning the means that other people use to provide value.

------
ggm
If you judge worth by others, you can be in trouble. If you judge worth by
impact, what others get can be hugely significant. Somewhere between the two
is a movable balance point where what people say influences how you believe
they are impacted.

This works for people making huge donations, people of less financial worth
donating their time and work, but alas also justifies the Kardashians who
perceive impact somewhat differently.

------
tabtab
The process of evolution doesn't reward long-term "satisfaction" and
essentially makes animals "greedy". Sure, after a good meal or romance one may
feel temporarily satisfied, but in a day or two you are back for more.
Generally digestion is more efficient if the body is not moving fast or bumpy,
so a feeling of satisfaction will tend to make animals rest after a big meal.

------
goodcanadian
Sorry, no citation, but I remember reading of a study years ago that basically
determined that no matter how much income a person has, they feel that they
need about 10% more to be truly happy. This was consistent across a wide range
of income. Honestly, I think it is simply normal human psychology to keep us
striving. Complacency is not an evolutionary stable thing to do.

------
fallingfrog
There’s no possible way that anybody could save up more than maybe a million
dollars based on their own personal labor. Anything more than that is some
form of legal theft. There’s no reason we can’t restructure society so that
ownership and decision making is pushed down to a democratic level; it would
solve almost all the current problems we face.

------
danharaj
The bourgeoisie have false consciousness too.

------
known
Missing self-actualization in
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs)

------
sjg007
It's not about the money.

------
nathias
Why would anyone be happy with the money they have in a world where the next
day your fortune may change and you lose it all? Capital is a self-hosted
safety net.

------
dba7dba
I don't think a lot of rich are into making more money to be happier. But
rather to have more than the guy next to him. It's treated more like a game.

~~~
unforeseen9991
That is literally what the article is all about

------
Shivetya
so being successful drives people to continue trying to be successful or even
more so? it is a personality which works at many levels but I guess it is more
interesting when applied to the really really rich.

I have never known a rich person who wasn't always trying to do more. however
I have had and still do have some acquaintances who go out of their way to not
have money

------
lordnacho
Perhaps it's just me but the article makes it look like rich people only ever
hang out with other rich people.

Hang out with people who aren't rich and you'll notice they're just as happy
as everyone else.

I happened to grow up with classmates whose parents were both billionaires and
cab drivers. There's research that suggests beyond a certain threshold you
won't get happier from any extra money and that certainly seemed to be the
case.

------
dba7dba
I think some rich people are not into making more money to be happirr but just
to have more than the guy next to him.

------
themusicgod1
Well, for starters, volatility.

I know, very well, know how quickly this pile of cash can evaporate. To keep
from starving again I'd rather have a significant (like orders of magnitude at
this point) chunk dedicated to buffering me from that outcome. I do not trust
the market to remain stable - I will go out and make more.

I've lost fortunes some of you youngins can only dream of, but came out OK
because I was not content to sit on my laurels.

------
dandare
I read somewhere that net worth of $1 million is not enough to send two kids
to Ivy League schools. There are many ways $10M will revolutionize your life
compared to $1M.

------
tw1010
Hedonic treadmill

