
Ask HN: Victim of an unfounded harrasement accusation. Your thoughts? - fjfkdjfjfjd
Seeing top HN link about sexual harassment in SV https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14673777 and my recent experience facilitated this posting.<p>I will try my best to keep this post brief, so please ask in the comments about details I left out.<p>Swift action has been taken against me by management, due to an accusation by an anonymous female co-worker.  All management could tell me is that I made this person &quot;feel uncomfortable&quot;, I am guessing in a sexual way.  My desk was moved across the building away from where my immediate co-workers sit, and I was told  to be not talk to women at the office unless absolutely necessary regarding business matters.<p>The extent of my non-work-related conversation with female employees has been saying hello&#x2F;goodbye and making small talk on occasion (How long have you been with the company? Do you have travel plans for this summer? Are you doing anything fun this weekend?) I realize some of these questions could be viewed as hitting on someone, but that was not my intention, and believe that question was cleared up once they responded to me that they were going to see their boyfriend&#x2F;girlfriend.<p>I am a male in my mid-20s on an internship ending in a few months. (The company has told me they do not have the budget to hire me full-time or extend my internship.) In the grand scheme of things, I understand this is small potatoes.  But what has kept me up at night is the worry that I could be accused of sexual harassment or rape in the future leading to job loss or criminal charges.<p>I am frankly quite scared of talking to or approaching any women in my office, even for a work-related purpose.  This is not a good long-term strategy, and I am not sure how to proceed.  I would love your thoughts or advice on this topic. Thanks in advance!
======
zucchini_head
It's certainly a phenomenon that exists, we've all seen and heard of false
accusations to damage people's reputation, business, and such. "Scandals" have
been around since humans have, it's gossip, it's libel, it's whatever you call
it.

Question: did they provide you with _any_ substantial evidence?

Anyway, ultimately your case and many others is why the law is at it's very
core based on an innocent until proven guilty paradigm. Once you take that
principle away, you put all the power in the accuser and none in the accused,
which is objectionably unjust.

I've recently seen a few very disturbing comments on HN and from similar
people (above-average education, born into privileged conditions, politically
left, etc.), who naively believe that this is a bad or somewhat ineffective
paradigm, and that we should "just believe" rape accusations, because ????
_shrug_. It disheartens me that some people can be so blindly ignorant about
the law and human nature. We only need to take a short walk down history lane
to explicitly see that if you give one side of anything human-related an
enormous amount of power (like in this case if accusers are believed before
evidence), there will be many who abuse it. It is human nature, and the law
prevents it from reining free and causing utter chaos.

In your case, by the sounds of it they did not present to you any form of
evidence (right?) to show you your misconduct. No sexually harassing text
transcripts, no internal email transcripts, no witnesses, nothing. What this
is is chaos and injustice, under the guise of some very malformed concepts of
"progressiveness", and it's unfortunately ever-more prevalent.

~~~
fjfkdjfjfjd
No substatial evidence was provided. After being told that I made a woman feel
uncomfortable, I immediately apologized for any harm I would have caused. I
then asked if its possible to know what I said or did that caused this
discomfort to insure I do not repeat an offending action. Management said they
could not divulge this information for privacy reasons. So at this point, I
feel there is really no evidence other than the testimony of one person.

~~~
zucchini_head
Wow. That's disturbing!

~~~
peoplewindow
It happens all the time. I've been in a similar situation. Denied a promo
because of anonymous feedback from someone who said I had "communication
issues". Probably not sexual in that situation as I never hit on anyone at
work or had any desire to, more likely I asked them to (re)do their work and
they took it personally given the context at the time. Nobody would tell me
what I'd said, or to who, or what I should do with such feedback.

My actual communication skills were not the issue, mind. The company
frequently asked me to write and give presentations, either in public
conferences or to the rest of the firm.

Anonymous accusations that sink careers are a plague of the modern workplace
and are entirely due to a culture of "always believe the victim".

------
zabana
Not judging you but it could just be that you might come across as
"""creepy""" (notice the three pairs of quotes here). The issue is that you're
in a hyper sensitive environment with hyper sensitive people. If you try and
initiate a conversation with certain women (even to be polite because you dgaf
about them) that dislike you, it can be considered """pushy""" and/or
"""creepy""" (even though there's no objective proof that you were trying to
force their hand) but if you're the tall, confident, handsome guy from
marketing then you're "such a player". So yeah, my advice to you is stay
extremely professional for the remainder of your time there, try not to burn
bridges with the company, stay courteous, work hard and most importantly find
a job somewhere else. Also, learn about social dynamics. If you're socially
awkward you'll be more at risk of being accused of rape (whatever its
definition of the day is). Not to mention the increasing pressure that lies on
HR and management as a result of the fear of being labeled the next Uber.

~~~
le-mark
I've concluded over the years that I must give off some sort of creepy vibe at
tmes. It's wierd, it seems to be situational or based on the other party,
because it's only happens about 95% of the time. I've found that I just seem
to make some women uncomfortable.

Sometimes it's been justified, and I've learned what not to do, like sitting
to close to a lab partner in college. But then other times, I'm still
mystified to this day; like why was asking a co-worker if she was still
running half marathons a reason for her to respond "how do you know that? why
do you care?" in an an accusatory manner. I concluded, maybe I'm not the only
wierd one, in that case.

At the end of the day, you only control yourself. I figured out early on to
concentrate on conducting myself in a professional manner, and keep small talk
to a minimum. Work isn't for making friends. Friendships will arise, but I'm
always very cautious at work.

~~~
imron
> like why was asking a co-worker if she was still running half marathons a
> reason for her to respond "how do you know that? why do you care?" in an an
> accusatory manner

Well, the devil is in the details. How _do_ you know that she runs half
marathons?

Do you know it because 2 years ago she posted it to Facebook and you've gone
through all her old Facebook posts and know that she once ran half-marathons?
Creepy.

Or, do you know it because 6 months ago you were having a conversation with
her and she brought up that she runs half-marathons, but she's now forgotten
that conversation. Not creepy, she just has a bad memory.

~~~
matheist
And there's quite a wide range of alternatives in here, ranging from "not
creepy at all" to "extrememly creepy".

 _you have established a rapport where you talk about weekend activities, and
she has mentioned half marathons to you in particular_

"Are you still running half marathons?"

Not problematic at all; by standard social conventions you have implicit
permission to ask about a topic that was previously deemed acceptable.
Everyone knows how you know about marathons.

\---

 _you have established a rapport where you talk about weekend activities, and
she has NOT mentioned half marathons to you_

"Are you still running half marathons?"

Might cause a moment's confusion but is probably fine — she might think you
heard it from a mutual acquaintance, and marathons are not so intimate that
they'd be off limits if you have previously discussed equally intimate
subjects.

\---

 _you are only casually acquainted, have had maybe one or two conversations in
group settings and the two of you did not directly interact in this group_

"Are you still running half marathons?"

Too forward — you probably don't have implicit permission to bring up personal
subjects that she did not explicitly bring up to you first. The social
standard here in this situation would probably be to determine her attitude
towards you by asking less intimate questions (e.g. "Did you have a good
weekend?") that give her the option to signal whether she's interested in more
interaction. ("Yup." -> not interested. don't ask about marathons. "Yes, I
went running, how about you?" -> potentially interested.)

\---

 _you are not acquainted, or have met once or twice but have not spoken to
each other outside of when it 's required for work_

"Are you still running half marathons?"

Nope, way too forward. Most people take a gradual approach ("Did you have a
good weekend?"), and the fact that you're not doing that is a signal that you
don't understand social nuances and are potentially dangerous. Best case
scenario, she makes a polite excuse and leaves.

\---

 _you are not acquainted, and also have a reputation for not understanding
social norms_

"Are you still running half marathons?"

She's thinking of the best way to make unambiguously sure that you don't talk
to her again.

~~~
le-mark
Yeah that all makes a lot of sense; the scenario was: more than acquaintances,
worked together for over a year, she was QA on a project I was on, we talked
everyday. She was very open about her life, and talked openly about the half
marathons. Then I ran into her at a beer meetup with alumni from the same
company, I hadn't talked to her in over a year. I was trying to make
conversation, so I asked about the half marathons. That was the context, very
not creepy imo. But I welcome feedback on that :)

~~~
hluska
You know, I'm not trying to make you feel bad here, but I wonder if that's the
kind of question that needed some lead in? Usually when I meet a co-worker or
acquaintance who I haven't spoken to in over a year (particularly if there is
alcohol involved), I tend to be a little more conservative about how I bring
up topics.

For example, in that situation, I might have said something like:

Hey, remember how you used to tell me all about your half marathon training? I
just ran my first 5k...are you still training?

With those sentences you have:

1\. Queued her memory. 2\. Showed how that particular topic is relevant to
you. 3\. Asked your question.

That kind of approach also tends to be a more fertile conversation starter
with people who I haven't spoken to in a long time.

Finally, this is harsh advice, but necessary to hear. One of the keys to
people is understanding that some people are significantly more important to
you than you are to them. You may use the phrase 'more than acquaintances' to
describe your relationship to her. She may refer to you as 'some guy in IT'.
Or, maybe she has never referred to you because you just aren't that important
to her.

That isn't bad though, because it is just as inevitable that you are
significantly more important to someone else than he/she is to you. Heck,
'that person who serves you coffee' may refer to you as 'le-mark _le drool_ '.
:)

Point being, our operating systems aren't all compatible.

------
fishnchips
Those accusations can come from weird places. I was once accused of sexual
harassment by a male coworker (I'm a straight male, and a father of two). When
summoned by HR to face the victim it turned out that he felt that touching his
screen (when explaining something) violated his personal space. Not that it is
necessarily relevant to your case but if you feel innocent then you probably
are - unless you're a psychopath, that is.

~~~
fjfkdjfjfjd
Wow! That is a crazy story! I am not justifying the person who falsely accused
you at all, but at least in the end, there was some "closure"/mutual
understanding of how to reduce any tension. I wish something like this could
have happened with management bringing me and them together to determine any
problems and resolve them. I hate this feeling that I do not know what if
anything I did wrong.

~~~
fishnchips
From what I know HR brought us together because they couldn't figure out what
actually happened. My coworker was not a very social person and could not
coherently explain his accusation. When they finally figured out the whole
story... you should've seen the HR director's face. She left not long
afterwards to a much more 'conventional' environment. Definitely not related
to my case but I'd imagine she never looked back. Anyway, if the accusations
were clearer and more coherent, or a female was involved, I don't think HR
would organize a confrontation like this.

------
Stenzel
Accusing you without specific reason so you cannot defend yourself is a bad
form harassing. Consider to step up and demand either specifics of the
accusation so you can defend yourself, or all charges being dropped
immediately in combination of an excuse from your employer. Check your local
law if you could threaten to sue them for misconduct if they are not willing
to cooperate. Consider not to comply with their demands to restrict your
communication, ask your coworkers in a friendly way if they know more or if
there was anything you said that made them feel uncomfortable.

~~~
fjfkdjfjfjd
Thanks for your input! I have toyed with the idea of meeting with management
and making such demands, but between being nervous of getting fired sooner
than my internship already ending, I am reluctant to do so. On the other hand,
I feel this may be good practice on how to approach a similar situation should
one arise, and when I am in a permanent position. The single co-worker I asked
(and generally confide in) was very shocked to hear this and had nothing bad
to say about how I handle myself around other people in the company.

~~~
imaginenore
Talk to a lawyer. I highly doubt your internship will end well there, the way
things are going. Do you really expect them to give you a good reference?

------
mysterypie
Though I have no specific advice for you, I want to mention that the current
hypersensitive no-accusation-is-too-frivolous always-believe-the-accuser
climate will result in many cases like yours unfortunately.

------
chrisbennet
_" The extent of my non-work-related conversation with female employees has
been saying hello/goodbye and making small talk on occasion (How long have you
been with the company? Do you have travel plans for this summer? Are you doing
anything fun this weekend?) I realize some of these questions could be viewed
as hitting on someone, but that was not my intention, and believe that
question was cleared up once they responded to me that they were going to see
their boyfriend/girlfriend."_

When someone feels like they are being "hit on" and they have a
boy/girlfriend, a go to move is to mention something that indicates that they
have a b/gfriend as a way to rebuff the approach. I don't mean to imply any
fault or criticize your behavior but as a fellow densizen of your planet I
know first hand how difficult it can be to understand human behavior.

Example:

Person A: "I'm going to Catelina this weekend, what are your weekend plans?"

Person B: "Nice! My girl/boyfriend loves going there."

------
bgia
Keep an open mind. I don't know you, nor your coworkers, but you may have done
something that feels "normal" to you but is actually inappropriate without
even realizing. That's why it is important to raise awareness on misogyny and
the rape culture: a lot of the problematic behavior seems perfectly normal and
acceptable to the perpetrators, but it's really not. Not saying that's what
happened with you, but it could have and the only for you to find out is to
get a clear explanation on what the complaint about you was exactly.

I'd recommend approaching HR (or management) keeping this in mind. You could
tell them that these are serious accusations and that it makes you sick to
even imagine you made someone feel that way. You could show them you genuinely
don't understand what was wrong but are willing to improve and to work on
yourself so you don't ever make anyone uncomfortable again.

My 2cents, but again: I don't know you, the company you intern in, nor have I
ever been in such a situation. So please take my post with a grain of salt.

~~~
everdayimhustln
Yes and ask HR for honest feedback, specifically for improving one's
professionalism. They most likely won't do it, but let them be the one to be
unprofessional.

~~~
watwut
Dunno, I would recommend asking trusted person, but not hr.

------
Bahamut
I have been in a similar position fairly recently, although what was done was
I was laid off without cause & without discussing anything - I was tipped off
what I was accused of by someone privy to the details, and although I was fine
with being laid off, the accusations did not match the reality.

In my case, having explained the details to my friends (including several
females) and discussing with a former female coworker at that company, my mind
was put at ease somewhat as to what was actually my fault (I wasn't blameless,
but I did not do sexual harassment - there are some greater responsibilities
that I failed on as a manager that was my primary fault). I was also already
debating leaving the company at that point because I was dissatisfied with
higher management, and it turned out to be a major blessing for me.

My recommendation is to keep work strictly work as much as possible. Small
talk is fine, but when you spend time outside of work hanging out with
coworkers, especially on the weekends or separate away from other coworkers
(i.e. just another coworker and you), you put yourself at risk potentially. It
sounds like what you did might be ok, but of course we don't know the full
details so it's hard to really give an accurate assessment. One should be
guarded in the event one has coworkers who aren't well-meaning, which is
always certainly a possibility & the disproportionate damage that can occur
sadly makes it important to be watchful & behave accordingly.

------
chmike
My brother (manager) has been confronted to a similar situation, except that
he was accused of moral harassement. The employee complained about it to the
director of human ressource. They reacted swiftly. They hired an independent
and specialized company to investigate the matter. The conclusion was that it
was a fake accusation.

This is the correct behaviour in face of any kind of accusation between
employees. This protects the company in face of justice, and gives some
insurance that the truth comes out. Relying on an independent company gives
some garantee (not full) that the investigation is impartial.

While this is not perfect, it is the most optimal and fair reaction in such
situations.

Regarding your situation, it is understandable that it is worrying because you
just discovered that you are very exposed. From what you say, it appears that
what you considered small talk where questions on private activities. A normal
person would simply skip it or make you understand that this is not your
business. But some people can't handle that because they are socially
disfunctional.

I would suggest that you keep a low profile until the end of your internship.
The human resource did simple put distance between you two. So there is
nothing dramatic.

Regarding the small talk, I would suggest that, in the future, you try
avoiding asking questions. It is better to let the other person drive the talk
so that you can easily deduce what is ok to talk about. Stay in the ok subject
domain. Eventually you may share some of your private info but be attentive to
the other person reaction. If he/she switch subject, it means private life
discussions are to be avoided. Even that could already be enough to make
socially disfunctional people inconfortable.

The fundamental rationale is just a matter of respect. Some people don't like
to share private matters at work. People complaining at HR are really
disfunctional because they can't handle everyday situations themselves. These
kind of people are toxic in their way and potential source of problems for the
company. That person who complained about your behavior has raised a red flag
about herself. It's for your own safety that I suggested how to avoid being
confronted to such situations again. For now buck down and let the wave pass.
Good luck for your future.

~~~
watwut
What is moral harassment?

~~~
chmike
I'm suprized you don't know that. We are in europe. This concept is well known
here and it is illegal. Moral harrassement is humiliating someone in front of
collegues, requesting to complete unachivable tasks, continuously requesting
things from someone without leaving him "time to breath" or complete the
previous request. And then complaining that the previous task has not been
completed, threatening to fire the person or changing his holliday period in
last minute to jeorpadized his planned holliday with his familiy, calling the
employee for an appointment at the end of the day, let him wait 2 hours and
then say the apointment is cancelled, etc. It is psychological torture, but we
call it moral harassement because it affects morale and demolishes people
psychically. It doesn't leave visible trace but may lead a person to commit
suicide when he refuse to give up and resign. Because of lack of traces the
employer can deny any responsibility. The victims often commit suicide on the
work place because it's the last way they have to show that something is wrong
at the workplace and the "work" led them to that.

This kind of torture may be more frequent in europe than USA because it is
more difficult to let go an employee due to employee protections. Some manager
then use these techniques to push employee to resign. Otherwise, it's just
psychpaths who do these things.

France Telcom was a french public company that was privatized. The new
management did put a lot of pressure on employe to get rid of some of them.
They, for instance, moved them alone in an office in a distance place without
any furniture, missions, no phone, no internet, nothing. There were many
suicide in that company in that period which is not long ago.

My broder is not in such company. He is in a good company handling employees
with respect so as he does.

~~~
jnbiche
> I'm suprized you don't know that.

They don't know because you're mistranslating from the French -- not all terms
are subject to literal translation simply because they _can_ be translated
literally.

The proper translation for "harcèlement moral" in US/UK English is "workplace
bullying". No English-speaking country (with English as a native tongue)
commonly uses the term "moral harassment".

~~~
chmike
Thanks. I didn't knew that. Sorry for the confusion.

------
justin_vanw
I don't have too much useful advice. I don't think there are any positive
outcomes for you here, so find another employer ASAP. If you had been at this
job for a long time, or you were worried about vesting options or something
then it would make sense to consult with a lawyer and defend yourself a bit,
but as it is it seems like management at this company is scared and trying to
hide you until your internship is up.

I think it's totally bizarre that they would restrict you from talking to any
female co-workers. If I were to guess at this situation with no more
information than you have given, there is probably some consensus from many
employees that you are 'creepy', and since they aren't willing to fire you for
'creepiness' they are just going to put you in the basement until your
contract is up.

Good luck, consider whether you are generally creeping people out (maybe
privately ask some male co-workers that you know if this might be the case),
make sure your personal hygiene is good (shower every day, wear clean clothes
everyday), etc. Maybe you do all this already and you are just a regular guy
getting a bad deal, I don't know obviously, but you wouldn't be the first
stinky guy in tech if that happens to be the issue.

------
lazyjones
That's a very immature way of dealing with the problem (by the management).
The issue likely has 2 very different perspectives and both people involved
should be mature enough to be confronted with the other's perspective so it
can be dealt with fairly.

For example, you might be sitting opposite of some female co-workers and
frequently meeting glances might be interpreted by them as "staring" etc.
while you might not even be consciously aware that you do it ... Solution: put
up some optical barrier after talking with all people involved together.

~~~
fjfkdjfjfjd
I sit facing a wall on one side of the room. The two desks on either side of
me are where my teammates (both male) sit. Behind me at the other end of the
room, there are two girls, one facing the back wall, and one facing the
opposite side wall. The only time I look in their direction is when I enter
and leave the room.

~~~
sincarne
Something to consider: women do not generally appreciate being called girls.
They may consider that language infantilizing or possibly even sexualizing.
It's definitely a word to excise from your at-work vocabulary at a minimum.

------
brudgers
_question was cleared up once they responded to me that they were going to see
their boyfriend /girlfriend_

Situations where clarification requires those or similar statements share some
context with those in which one person is clearly expressing a possible
romantic interest in a person without a similar reciprocal interest. Multiple
conversations within a relatively short time frame might reasonably be
interpreted as a pattern within workplace.

On the positive side, recognizing that these situations can readily be
interpreted as hitting on someone means that they are avoidable by not
engaging in the behavior. Self identification of the root cause behavior also
means that the allegations are not unfounded.

Good luck.

~~~
RUG3Y
Then there are the ones that perceive any contact from the opposite sex as
being "hit on".

Person A: "Do you have the time?" Person B: "I have a boyfriend!!!"

~~~
brudgers
Because:

1\. The OP describes mention of a significant other as clarifying the
situation;

2\. The OP states that their actions could be interpreted as hitting on the
other person;

that does not appear to be the type of situations described in the question.

------
rmetzler
Look for a better full time job now. Your time there is limited.

I'm not in the US, so I don't know anything about how you have to handle this
legally, but I would publicly apologize for any unintended wrongdoing and make
clear that you don't know what you are punished for. Be rather brief.

Any decent person (which isn't legally bound) will come to you and give you
some hints or let you know what happened from their view. If not, forget about
it and move on.

~~~
apatters
I would second the call to start looking for a new job ASAP. However I would
focus my energies entirely on ensuring the healthiest departure possible,
leaving any and all relationships you can on a positive note. And I would not
speak a single word about this accusation ever again.

Unfortunately business culture in the US is such that it's very easy to become
"tainted" by an accusation like this, and it's the next worst thing for your
career after being a felon.

Actual evidence of wrongdoing is not a prerequisite for your conviction in the
court of public opinion. It may seem unjust, and if things went down as you
describe, it is. But you're best served by walking away from this situation in
an orderly and professional fashion. Don't feed the trolls--shift attention
and energy, both yours and others', on positives ASAP. The sooner you that
happens the less chance this will come back to bite you one day.

~~~
fjfkdjfjfjd
Thanks for your comment! Well said! I am looking forward to working as hard as
I can and then moving on in a few months when this internship ends. But
becoming "tainted" or worse, convicted of a crime is what I am worried about,
especially further down the line, when I have a permanent position, a mortgage
to pay, or a family to support. I recall in a Planet Money podcast episode an
interview with a Wells Fargo banker, who after being pressured to meet new
account quotas by opening extra accounts without their customers express
desire, was somehow marked when she left her position, and had trouble finding
another job in the banking industry. I wonder if anything like this (or
perhaps a social credit system) exists, and if it could be corrected/adjusted
as spurious information on one's credit report can be taken off.

------
comstock
It's not really possibly to provide solid advice, nobody here knows the full
details of the situation. But here's what I (might) do:

1\. Ask them to put everything in writing, if it isn't already in writing.

2\. If you're thinking about quiting, talk to a lawyer.

3\. If you quit, consider making a case against them for constructive
dismissal.

I'd probably quit. It sounds horrible, and I couldn't work in that
environment.

~~~
luord
This is basically what I was going to write. Having it in writing I hadn't
thought of but it's definitely important.

------
plainOldText
I have a question for people reading this thread (it's something I've been
pondering a lot lately).

If for whatever reason, person X makes person Y uncomfortable, shouldn't Y
tell X about it, and X stop the behavior/languages that caused the situation?

I think people make mistakes all the time, and some of them are quite
honest/unintentional. What happened to "Let's learn from our mistakes?"

Not to be confused with people who make the "same mistake" all the time, in
which case I think their behavior should not be tolerated.

~~~
mapmeld
In situations like this (for example if the women who mentioned having a
boyfriend had been more direct "please stop trying to spend time with me") it
would cause its own set of problems. An intentional harasser will insist
nothing is wrong and keep coming back... at best. Some cause problems at work
or become verbally/physically abusive. OP may have awkwardly stumbled into
this situation, but his colleague doesn't know how to stop it without everyone
getting pissed off. Is it worth HR involvement? Depends on what's been said.
But it's not like they would understand each other from one conversation.

This took time for me to understand. I had an acquaintance starting at a
company who was interested in my separate traveling job. When I moved to SF
she said we should have dinner, we were cool, invited to her birthday. She
suggested I find a souvenir for her on my next trip. Months later I gave her a
nice scarf and never saw her again. She probably forgot that it was her idea!
I asked her to meet up, and she'll agree, but then it never happens. If I say,
"hey, why don't you tell me why we didn't meet up? I need to talk this over in
person, you need to believe me", that's exactly what a harasser would do. So
I've had to let this go. It might be a little uncomfortable, but no one really
gains anything from fixing it, except trying to feel like I'm always right.

------
everdayimhustln
Never be around or communicate 1:1 with a woman you don't know alone. Always
be with other people whom could be witnesses or with a clear paper-trail.
Furthermore, keep "getting to know" questions to safe, nonintrusive topics for
anyone new. Strangers are potential liabilities until proven otherwise.

~~~
tluyben2
Is that a US thing? I know this advice is given to teachers and such here, but
colleagues? Quite a few of the people who worked at my company had relarions
and/or married (with kids a lot of them) because of office flirtations; some
love at first sight. I guess if it is a common thing then yours is good advice
but I would not exactly like to work in such a paranoid environment,
especially with people who should be my peers.

------
hughperkins
> believe that question was cleared up once they responded to me that they
> were going to see their boyfriend/girlfriend.

This sentence is kind of interesting. So, you were 'just making small talk',
until they told you they had a boy/girlfriend, and then, you just ... stopped
'making smalltalk'? :-P

~~~
jbmorgado
Where in that sentence do you get the idea that he _" stopped 'making
smalltalk'"_ after _" they told [him] they had a boy/girlfriend_"?

~~~
watwut
It sounded that to me too. That he assumed the issue is cleared and that he
can continue conversation without worrying that she would interpret it as
hitting.

Because since he now knows she has boyfriend, therefore he is not hitting,
therefore logically she is unlikely to interpret further conversation as
hitting. Incidentally, that is remarkably similar to the way people on
spectrum "logically" interpret humans - have hard time imagine other person
perspective (here he knows he is not hitting therefore she knows too) - and
get into trouble despite really not having bad intentions.

~~~
jbmorgado
I see, I was interpreting the GP comment as that the OP stopped talking
altogether after knowing she had a boyfriend. But you are right, it can also
be interpreted that after the OP knew she had a boyfriend he changed from
"small talk" to some more interesting subjects cause he felt more at ease of
not being misunderstood as hitting on her.

------
sparkling
Honestly, i would quit and burn the bridge. If they can't show any evidence
and can't even tell you what wrong you did, why bother dealing with this
nonsense?

~~~
everdayimhustln
Anonymous sources can say you're a pedophile and I'm a canabal hatchet
murderer, and face no consequences for making false claims.

Furthermore, for those with very thin skins (SJWs) whom see microaggressions
everywhere, it's fine for them to use whatever tools are available because the
ends justifies the means, as a person, in their mind, is guilty merely for
being born with innate identity privilege attributes. SJW behavior is
disproportionate retribution combined with stereotyping.

------
csydas
Really the only sound advice anyone can offer is "keep your head down until
you naturally part" or "leave now via a mutual agreement" so as to not cause
any of the harm you're afraid of causing. We only have a few tidbits of
information from you - this isn't to say that I disbelieve you, but rather
that it's impossible to give proper advice without knowing far more about
what's going on; anything else is just going to be speculation, likely driven
by personal biases and spurious opinions.

Professionally, stick it out with your nose to the grind stone and leave with
work experience on your resume, or part ways now on good business terms if
you're really worried that something else is going to happen.

If you are really worried about communication via the stick-it-out option,
just try to keep it via email and business oriented. There's nothing wrong
with dropping the pre-tense of small talk in conversations and keeping an
email just to "Hi [name], I'm working on X and was wondering if you could
provide Y for me as it will help a lot. Thank you, fjfkdjfjfjd"

I must confess it's very hard not to project my own prejudices and biases
here; I tend to be of the opinion that a company wouldn't bother with such a
PR disaster if there wasn't something that troubled an employee - my past
managerial experience with such situations is that most are caused by well-
meaning but socially awkward and oblivious young men not realizing that what
they say or do makes people uncomfortable. (Luckily for our business, all
parties were able to come to a mutual understanding that it _was_ a
misunderstanding after my investigation, and the issue was forgiven and a
friendship established by the parties) We also had several cases that were
genuine harassment and punitive action had to be taken.

With how little there is for anyone to go on here, everyone is going to be
relying on their own past experiences - my experience is "where there's smoke
there's fire", others see false claims, but neither is going to be right
because we can't comment.

So, if you're worried professionally, just weigh the benefits of actions here
- you can pursue it, make noise, and maybe get a pyrrhic victory of principal
while damaging your professional career, or you can let this one go, focus on
your professional life, and move on. We don't have the information to give any
better options; you do. If you share more (honestly), we can advise more, but
if this is what you feel safe with, then just take the safe approach, stick it
out and/or move on.

~~~
fjfkdjfjfjd
I have no intent on damaging my career or making others feel uncomfortable, so
at this point, keeping my head low, nose to the grindstone, let this pass, is
how I will attempt to make these last few months work out. From the comments
here, I definitely gained from seeing other's perspectives of the occasional
small-talk I was making could be viewed in a way other than what I was
intending.

I am happy to provide some more detail. Is there something specific I can
provide?

------
towb
Not ok. You need to walk in there and demand to know what you are accused of.
Not "so that I won't do it again", don't say that, but because you have the
right to know to be able to defend yourself.

------
deftnerd
> The company has told me they do not have the budget to hire me full-time or
> extend my internship

Were you told this AFTER these apparently unfounded accusations?

~~~
Melchizedek
And are you in competition with any female for a position? Are there female
interns? If so, suspect those individuals.

------
throwaway5645
I faced the same situation, although it wasn't 'sexual' harassment, just
harassment in general apparently.

Basically the company I worked at was taken over and me and some others were
forced out. The others rage quitted. I had false complaints made against me,
and I was suspended while they 'investigated', I just quit.

My advice would be to walk away. If you know you've done nothing wrong and
there's no evidence, you don't want to be in that kind of toxic environment.

------
watwut
> I realize some of these questions could be viewed as hitting on someone, but
> that was not my intention, and believe that question was cleared up once
> they responded to me that they were going to see their boyfriend/girlfriend.

If someone tells you she has boyfriend, then she thinks you are hitting at
her. Always. It does not automatically clears your intentions, but it makes it
clear she interprets you wrongly.

------
Mz
I don't have any advice for you per se. This sounds like a really, really
terrible thing. I am going to link to a previous discussion that I
participated in as food for thought. People were trying to give me push back
and tell me I was wrong for saying this needed to be investigated even
handedly and I asked people "Do you want to work in an environment where women
can level accusations and get you summarily fired without so much as asking
your side of things?"

So here is that link:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11669429](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11669429)

There is additional related commentary on my website on an easily found piece
called _Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER._ that I am not going to
link here. But the point I want to make is that we all need to start doing a
better job of building bridges or you can expect more of this sort of thing in
the future and it isn't going to do ANYONE any real good. This is not a
solution to the problem of sexism.

------
DanBC
> I realize some of these questions could be viewed as hitting on someone, but
> that was not my intention, and believe that question was cleared up once
> they responded to me that they were going to see their boyfriend/girlfriend.

Multiple people felt the need to tell you that they have a partner.

Why do you think the problem is non-existent?

~~~
freeflight
When the question is "What do you do on the weekend", then, of course, people
with partners will most likely respond with something involving their
partners.

How does that imply a problem with the OP, except his inability to magically
know the relationship status of his coworkers? Which would be the only ability
allowing him to evade such answers to a rather casual question.

Maybe he's new in town and looking for places to go to during the weekend? Is
the weekend question really that inappropriate in such a context?

~~~
DanBC
OP has interpreted this as not being g a problem. I'm looking out that if many
people felt the need to drop the "I'm not interested in you, and I have a
partner so back off" line then maybe there was a problem.

~~~
freeflight
That's the thing with these kinds of situations, whatever the OP original
intentions had been, they don't matter anymore as soon as the other party
thinks he/she is being "hit on" and feels offended about it.

If the other party is actively looking to be offended, then there's literally
nothing one can say/do to make it not worse, just walk out of the situation in
silence and take a break.

------
CodeWriter23
By your own description it sounds it is founded, asking what you're up to this
weekend is a lead in to asking for a date. I get that wasn't your intent, but
that doesn't matter, does it?

Others have said find another job, that sounds like a good ideas. I probably
wouldn't put this internship on my employment history.

And seriously, your 20's are for getting laid as much as you can. Are you?
Because if you're not (outside the workplace obviously) the women at work
might be picking up on your energy and taking it the wrong way. The more you
get some outside of the office, the less you'll be emanating that "oh I wanna
fuck that" energy around the office. I'm not saying get a girlfriend but
having one (if you are suchly oriented) might help dissipate that energy on a
regular basis.

~~~
fjfkdjfjfjd
In hindsight, I realize that such a question about weekend plans could be
taken the wrong way. I was ultimately trying to be cordial, not to make anyone
(male or female) feel I was leading on to them.

On your last point, I am still a virgin now in my early-mid 20s. Never had a
girlfriend or been in much of any romantic relationship. I met a girl while
traveling, got her info and really connected after we were thousands of miles
away over the Internet for a few months, which eventually faded. During
college, I chose work and studying over a social life, and in hindsight, I
kind of regret it. I definitely feel I am very socially
underdeveloped/inexperienced and would love to know how to develop in this
area.

~~~
jackgolding
Don't worry about the virgin thing - but there is plenty of time to socialise
(and now you have the full time $ to support your hobbies which most 20 year
olds don't.)

I didn't start drinking until 23 and didn't start going out with friends until
25. I moved city and made all of my friends through the local live music
scene, I'm sure you could have similar results.

------
contingencies
Leave but before you do so find a chance to talk to a nontrivial percentage of
the staff and explain that this thing happened, affected you deeply and it was
never your intent to upset anyone and it has really negatively impacted your
experience at a formative stage in your career so whoever made the accusation
could they please be aware in future that they may have it wrong about people
and accusations can hurt. No issues otherwise enjoyed the company, see you all
later sorta thing. Makes the point but it's not "in your face" to the accuser,
and also makes the management aware they should be less manipulable.

~~~
watwut
That will come across as passive aggressive or manipulative at best. You need
considerable charisma to be able to pull something like that off. It is nice
as vengeance dream, but in practice would turn against him. It is therefore
bad advice.

~~~
julianmarq
> but in practice would turn against him

... How? If he's leaving, exactly _what_ they could do against him for you to
say "it would turn against him"? Nothing, of course, that's the point of
quitting, but I'm all eyes to your take on it.

~~~
watwut
Network of people you know and their willingness to work with you again are
quite helpful in both getting new jobs and telling you how the workplace
really looks like before you go to interview.

Also, what is the point of leaving as parent suggested? It is that you get to
look like a good guy in the end and she gets to feel bad/look bad in the eyes
of the management. If he ends up looking like manipulative asshole, then he
won't get that.

~~~
contingencies
Meh. You can take that stance. However, I don't think the OP is going to come
across as manipulative if they have been wrongfully victimized by such a
situation. My policy has always been and continues to be "open, honest, and to
hell with the social implications." While it's not the snazziest social
calibration one can aspire to, and it can burn bridges, long term it creates
trust and more importantly _removes the need to bother managing such petty
issues mentally_.

~~~
watwut
Practicaly, it does not matter whether he was wrongly victimised or not. It is
irrelevant whether she wrongly accused him or whether he was collosally out of
line. It matters whether he can talk about "formative stage of career" without
sounding like a colossal weirdo. Most people can't.

He was looking for advice how to make his situation better. This is not it.

Also, there is big difference between saving mental resources by not thinking
about impact of your words and spending effort looking for "a chance to talk
to a nontrivial percentage of the staff and explain ...". The latter does not
save mental energy. The latter is major project instead. Nor does it build
trust. Characterising it as causual "saving energy from managing petty issues"
is ridiculous.

~~~
contingencies
Your response is 90% opine.

By bringing it up he is giving the company a chance to be aware of its
mistake. As long as he is respectful in how its done that's a very selfless
thing.

FYI the open-and-to-hell-with-it strategy works well for me, I am very
successful by most measures.

------
libeclipse
I would suggest a lawyer. Even though it looks like no charges have been
filed, it could be the company's fault for not investigating properly.

 _IANAL_

~~~
ovi256
>looks like no charges have been filed

Charges? I don't think you mean criminal charges, but you may mean a more
formal HR investigation.

------
rdiddly
The accusation sounds frivolous, judging from your side of the story, which is
all I have access to. Keep in mind though, that it's not always strictly about
what's said. Like if your eyes keep unconsciously drifting to her tits the
whole time you're talking, the conversation could be about feeding the hungry
and singing in the church choir with your wife of 8 years and it'll still be
pretty "uncomfortable" for her -- maybe doubly so!

Anyway I think I recommend the same thing your management does, except take it
with you for your whole career: Keep the conversation to business-related
things, and save the BS small-talk stuff for your social life outside work.
Those are low-value conversations anyway... people's boring-ass weekends?
Their stupid commutes? Who cares? I personally could not give a flying you-
know-what about what any of my co-workers did this weekend or ever. Kill me
with a thousand knives first!

That's just me. Still, you might not believe me when I say, it is truly a
privilege to work in a professional, work-focused environment of basically
disinterested strangers who happen to work together. It's truly something to
behold. There is no drama whatsoever... nobody has time for it! Everybody is
happy as a clam and almost as quiet. That's why I stick with my current job
even though I'm kind of underpaid.

It's not done out of a sense of discipline. Well I mean it does take a little
bit of discipline but it shouldn't take a lot. I'm there to work, I value the
work, I enjoy the work. And I like getting it done, preferably as fast as
possible and with concise work-related answers to my work-related questions,
and a minimum of hearing about people's weekends. All those conversations do
is slow down the work and interrupt the work. Sounds fanatical doesn't it.
Again I would say it's a privilege to be in a situation where I can say all
this honestly.

------
snarfy
You should ask what you did so that you can avoid doing it again. If they
can't tell you why then you know it's all BS company politics.

> I was told to be not talk to women at the office unless absolutely necessary
> regarding business matters.

When you are at work you should only be talking about work anyway, regardless
of who. I wouldn't take this too harshly.

~~~
greglindahl
A clue was provided by HR, and you (and others) do not seem to be paying
attention to it.

------
jackgolding
I doubt it will feel better until you leave the role. There is only so much
self reflection you can do until you are self destructive. I think it's too
late now to ask for more information, so there is nothing you can do - and
this is an awful situation.

I imagine and hope it was an honest mistake towards someone who was a bit more
sensitive about one of your actions and there isn't a huge amount you can do
to make the situation better for anyone. You seem keen on fixing yourself
which is noble so I hope you don't let this eat away at you.

------
sideshowb
"I am frankly quite scared of talking to or approaching any women in my
office, even for a work-related purpose."

Have you told management this? Can they offer advice?

------
throwaway2564
I've been in a somewhat similar situation. Here's some hard advice to
consider.

Your manager and HR had a duty to stand up for you and did not. The fact that
you've been moved to a far corner away from your team will not be lost on
anyone. Your accuser is either a mischief-maker or has significant mental
health issues, and there's a good chance she's spreading gossip.

It's pointless to try to fight this or even to try to learn more about the
false accusation.

If at all possible, you should leave immediately. You can't use them as a
reference, so probably two-week notice is needless. Your reason is "personal
reasons".

If the internship has been sufficiently brief and not very publicly known,
scrub it from LinkedIn/etc., and proceed as if it didn't happen. Otherwise,
come up with a plausible and not particularly verifiable cover story.

If you can't leave right away, keep your head down. Name, rank, and serial
number only.

The timing of this in your career is actually pretty lucky. No one really
cares about internships unless your boss is a Nobel Prize winner or something.
Once you get your next job, this will be ancient history, and just a sad
lesson. In the future, of course, take steps to protect yourself from such
allegations.

Don't let this get you down! It's not that important, and in less time than
you think, you'll realize that it's really had no real effect on your life at
all.

Good luck.

------
itsprovocative
Although I do believe that HR handled the situation poorly (i.e. moving you
away from your group), I also think you're not innocent in this. My advice to
you would be to reevaluate how you come off to other people and maybe what
went wrong in these interactions. If they were bad enough to warrant someone
talking to HR then something definitely needs to change. I recommended the
book " The Charisma Myth: How anyone can master the art and science of
personal magnetism" by Olivia Fox Cabane. Additionally for the fellow
commenters, Shame on anyone calling the accuser "mentally ill", "spreading
gossip", or anything of the likes. That is victim blaming and weather her
accusations are true or not doesn't give you the right to justify his action
through attacking her character.

------
koonsolo
Just come to Europe and work here man. People are normal here, both how men
treat women in a professional environment, and how women perceive men in such
an environment.

------
onetokeoverthe
I touched a middle aged woman on the shoulder and my manager also told me to
limit my talking with women for 6 months. I was just avoiding shaking hands.

As an intern you may consider leaving early unless you know there is some one
sympathetic there who will still provide a good reference.

------
wruza
With all that public justice today, motorhead's life's a bitch makes a lot of
new sense. Take it as an official advice.

------
lalalawrence
The World is full of technology at your disposal. Use it! Do not Fear the
HATERS If you are that uncomfortable One DOCUMENT everything especially when
you feel threatened you have right too! This sounds like a personal Vendetta
against you by someone who does not like you ? Stay friendly and Cordial, but
quick in your Hi and Bye. RECORD with your phone any unrelated uncomfortable
incidents. And find a New JOB but before you leave that Job so those sexual
harras. Charges do not follow you! One week before you leave Press charges
against that Company for Violating your Rights Its all he say she say and its
just someone higher up thats got it in for you someone kbows someone who knows
someone who doesnt like you Get some Legal Advice feom a Shark then Harpoon
The problem and 9 times out of 10 you will find out who was hating on you When
you go public with a problem and go corporate the Loser Will show themselves
ashame and guess what Now there JOBLESS for lying and now the HARRASEMENT
cases belongs to them and its another win for THE GOOD GUYS! WHO SAYS WE
FINISH LAST Might take you some time to get there tortoise, but You can out
think the HARE! Plot, Plan, Apply, Record! And DOCUMENT , DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT
USE that CELLPHONE i know you keep it close Now Apply And im almost certain
you will see that SNAKE SLITHER out the high grass! SHES watching You! And
tell No one what your doing They will try to Stop you But Keep recording them.
VERBAL VIXENS! TRICK BITCHES get on my Nerve Ok i hope i was a help to you and
GOOD LUCK L.L.L.

~~~
bencollier49
Wow, that reads like Francis Dec.

~~~
p2t2p
It actually sounds more like Donald Trump. I was reading that with his voice
in my head after couple sentences

