

Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry? - benwerd
https://plus.google.com/106119964731604142156/posts/DkFAzuwmcTW

======
switch
Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason
that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming?

Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software
industry?

Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If
women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist
creeps'. It might surprise all the people here but a lot of industries (like
real estate and sales) have a LOT more sexist creeps than programmers.

There are lots of areas where people are sexist and racist and jerks - it
doesn't stop the people who want to get into those areas from getting into
them.

Perhaps women just don't want to get into computer science. And no amount of
bending over backwards and trying to appeal to female programmers will get us
to a situation of 50% female developers.

The first question people going on and on about 'ratios in the software
industry' need to answer is -

Are there really that many women interested in becoming a software developer?
Is their interest a lukewarm type of interest where the minute they see one
sexist programmer jerk they run off?

We are talking about the same women who fought tooth and nail for things like
the right to vote and who do lots of really tough things like raise a family
(often alone). Are we to believe that a few sexist programmers scare off these
same women?

Final Question: Is the presence of some percentage of sexist jerk programmers
the real reason there are far fewer women in programming? Is that really what
differentiates programming from fields with more social interaction (like
sales) or fields with more of a human aspect (like health care and medicine)?

~~~
solipsist

      Perhaps women just don't want to get into computer science.
      And no amount of bending over backwards and trying to
      appeal to female programmers will get us to a situation of
      50% female developers.
    

Or perhaps they _do_ want to get into computer science and there are a number
of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this.

If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid
evidence backing you up.

~~~
ryandvm
_What_ are these obstacles? Employers are dying to hire female programmers.
Universities are dying for females to enter CS programs. Right now, a women
that sets her mind on programming has an easier chance of landing a job than
any given guy.

Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle.

Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers
than female?

~~~
cheez
You have ignored the 18 years leading up to the university.

Infants: Pink clothes (ok, no biggie)

Toddler: dolls, playing mommy and dressup

Preschool: more of toddler, perhaps getting into TV now. Oh look, none of the
women on TV are into science or tech. Maybe I shouldn't be either.

School: Come on Carly, let's play with dolls. But I wanna play on the
computer. LOSER.

Teenager: What kind of a nerd plays with electronics and gadgets, lets go
shopping!

So society is completely geared towards beating it out of them. As the father
of a pre-teen who has probably solved more software bugs than most her age and
is deeply into robotics, it is a constant, constant battle even though she
loves the field.

Let's not forget all the aunties, grandmas and neighbours who don't encourage
tech curiosity for girls. "Hey, here's another shitty fashion toy for your
birthday" meanwhile, the girl is thinking "I really wanted a gizmo... oh
well." Even though dad specifically sent around suggestions for the next robot
she wants to build.

Your universities can want females all they want, but society... I want to
punch it sometimes.

Edit: I should mention that TV is getting a little better with this. There are
a couple of female leads in shows that are technically oriented.

~~~
Perceval
As I recall from my own primary and secondary education, being a nerd who
likes reading about science and math, and spends most of his time after school
on his computer is not exactly encouraged by society either. Your parents want
to cut down on your time spent in front of the computer, your dad wants you to
go outside and play sports, the jocks at school give you shit, the girls pay
no attention to you.

Girls interested in computers may be portrayed as losers and antisocial and
outcasts, but guys interested in computers have been portrayed as and treated
by society as antisocial outcast losers for as long as there has been such a
thing as a computer geek.

Given that amount of social pressure and shaming and exclusion faced by young
computer nerds, one wonders why _anyone_ would go into tech. But more boys do
and fewer girls do.

~~~
Klonoar
_Girls interested in computers may be portrayed as losers and antisocial and
outcasts, but guys interested in computers have been portrayed as and treated
by society as antisocial outcast losers for as long as there has been such a
thing as a computer geek._

Popularity and clique mentality tends to be much more of an issue in female
circles than with males. I would say that, if one were to assume either sex
will get untold amounts of hell for dabbling in tech early on, a female will
probably get it worse.

You also have to note that culturally, there is the "nerd" phenomenon backing
guys being interested in tech. If a young woman decides to get into tech, she
doesn't get the same label as a guy does, she's often labeled by her peers
(which can be fairly brutal) as a loser, outcast, or just "not one of the
girls".

Now, given that last point, take a female developer who's young and just
trying to get into things: you'll never quite be "one of the guys", and by
choosing this vocation you're throwing up a flag that states you're fine to
never be "one of the girls". That's not a fun combination to go through your
youth with.

~~~
thricedotted
Exactly the point I wanted to make, but pithier. Kudos.

~~~
Klonoar
Ah, appreciate you saying that. There was a part of me that was hesitant to
post it as I'm not a female, but just going on what I see with
siblings/friends. Glad to know I'm not totally off base.

------
silverlake
I skimmed the comments on Tom's boob pic. Most of the women also thought it
was funny. Only a few women were loudly critical. Do we solve sexism only when
100% of women are satisfied? That's going to take a while.

~~~
wccrawford
You're getting voted down for not going with the group-think. For some reason,
some people think that if even 1 women is offended, then it's sexist. They
couldn't be more wrong.

Anyhow, if all humor that made fun of someone or something were banned, there
wouldn't be much left. That's the basis of most of it, and they continue to
find it funny to make fun of some things, but not others.

Everyone should stop being offended on behalf of people who aren't like them.
Seriously. If you're offended because it affects you, I'm all ears. If you're
offended because it's rude to do that to someone else, but you have no stake
in it... Shut up. You're making the situation WORSE.

~~~
urbanjunkie
So, if I get offended because I see someone shout out at an Indian woman
crossing the street "Fuck off back to pakiland you dirty paki", I've made the
situation worse? Can you explain what I should do in such a situation, or even
better, what would you do?

~~~
wccrawford
That's an verbal attack, not just an offensive statement. It's quite a
different category than taking a picture with a woman using her boobs as O's
in a logo.

The woman in the photo obviously wasn't offended. Most other women apparently
aren't, either. But for some reason, MEN feel the need to make a big deal out
of this situation.

If a female blogger were writing to say she was offended by this situation,
I'd be paying a lot more heed.

People talk about equality and all, but when it comes down to it, the people
defending 'women' from this are actually worse than the people that supposedly
caused an offense!

Wrap your head around this: Why are men getting up in arms about this? Because
they think women need their protection. They are playing right into the sexism
by thinking women can't handle this on their own.

If women can't handle this on their own, they're welcome to say so, and I'll
jump on a white horse myself. They aren't saying that here. Or ANYWHERE that
I've seen lately.

I'm apparently one of the few men out there that actually believe a woman can
handle things. They aren't inferior; They don't -need- my help.

So everyone should heed their own advice and back off.

~~~
urbanjunkie
Well, you didn't qualify your original statement.

So, if I hear 3 people making a whole load of racist comments in a bus, but
not directed at a specific person, should I ignore it?

I'm Indian by birth, and have lived through a lot of racism. I'm not inferior,
and I would never have gone begging for help, but I'd sure have appreciated
people intervening at times, even when I wasn't under direct attack.

In the UK, women are typically paid 15% less than men for equivalent jobs.
Should I say nothing about this?

------
ICanDoMore
If you're wondering why a field once roughly equal in its gender balance is
now male-dominated, perhaps some real quotes from the hiring manager at this
company will shed some light.

"Oh, a female applicant!" (Tone: Surprise)

"He's male which immediately places him above [the female applicant]" (Tone:
Joking... but inappropriately sandwiched between comments relevant to their
ability to do the job, imo)

Argument ensued as I pushed to see how serious he was being... had an
interesting 5 minutes of biting my tongue while the owner of the company
justified not hiring women, at length. The usual stuff, maternity leave etc.
Plenty of anecdotes.

Most interesting part was right after the surprise at a female applicant,
though...

"I've only known one female developer that was any good... now, you might say
that there just aren't that many female developers full stop, and that's true,
but there must be a reason for that"

I passed the conversations on, as verbatim as I can, to the relevant
governmenty people but they can do nothing and I can do nothing. The only
person that can do anything is a female applicant, if they don't get accepted,
and it's shown that this is due to discrimination.

Pretty sure there's nothing more I can do at this point :( Very, very angry
and feeling utterly powerless.

~~~
jasonlotito
You could tell the female candidate.

~~~
ICanDoMore
Two problems with this:

1) She can only bring a discrimination case if she doesn't get hired and can
show it's because she was female. If they hire a better male applicant, there
is no case.

2) If she brings action against them which fails, I am then wide open to libel
and / or slander.

~~~
jasonlotito
Oh, I completely realize there are problems. Just pointing out what else could
be done. Also, she doesn't have to bring a case against them, nor do you need
to present yourself and leave yourself open. Not sure if just letting her know
anonymously would do anything for her. Personally, I'd want to avoid working
in such a place.

------
nickolai
For the same reason that we tolerate trolls and a-holes of all races and
genders. Which is that most people dont care. We happen to have 80% men in the
industry. Since 'male sexists' seem for some reason to be more common among
the male population, we do have a bit more of them than other branches with a
more balanced male-female ratio.

I've yet to see a study proving that we have _in proportion_ more sexist men
than other fields.

------
Cherian_Abraham
I met with a Director at a local consulting firm a couple of days ago and
while discussing the growing mobile practice at his firm and talking of the
team in charge of it, he referred to the lady who held the reins in growing
the practice, and how effective she is and how hungry she is, in growing it.

And then he made the comment that she being all that, is also "easy on the
eyes". I flinched, but held my tongue and it bothered me afterwards enough to
think why he felt compelled to put that out there, especially to someone he
just met.

I agree the problem is pervasive, whether its against women, minorities or the
guy down the hallway.

~~~
hackinthebochs
I don't see this as necessarily a problem. The fact is, men judge how women
look and will comment on it when among other men; _so do women_. There's
nothing inherently sexist about saying a woman is good looking. It was
probably more his attempt to relate to you on a personal level.

~~~
AndrewDucker
Actually, I work with a load of men (and a chunk of women), and this kind of
conversation never comes up in the office, because it is understood to be
deeply inappropriate for a work environment.

~~~
rokhayakebe
Your work place must be one in a million. (Not that is bad or good, just
different).

------
aspir
I'm more on the web marketing side, and it's nearly every 1-2 weeks where I
see someone write an article or give a presentation likening customer
acquisition and conversion to "tricking hawt chicks into hooking up with you."
It's absurd. Real men operate with respect, not misogyny.

------
mynameishere
I have seen precisely zero evidence of any "sexism" in the software industry.
Maybe I'm going to the wrong conferences but this bullshit is getting old.

~~~
ericb
Clearly your anecdotal evidence provides incontrovertible proof--proof enough
to declare this "bullshit."

------
kenneth_reitz
There hasn't been any sexism at the developer conferences I've attended. At
all.

However, I've heard personal accounts from friends who have attended
conferences of other circles (say, a linux-centered conf), and the account is
quite different.

It really depends on the culture of the group.

\--

I don't think Tom's photo is sexist. It's inappropriate, perhaps (depending on
the audience), but not an attack on equality.

Naming a project 'Pantyshot' and 'Upskirt' is.

------
hack_edu
Why do we let the same tired discussion about gender pervade HN once per week?

~~~
michaelchisari
Because the discussion needs to happen. We don't get to sweep it under the
rug.

~~~
alex_c
Discussion, or circle jerk?

I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions, but I saw
nothing new or interesting in the linked post. "Same tired discussion" is
right, every discussion on the topic here on HN plays out the exact same way
and goes nowhere. It's the religion or politics equivalent of HN discussions.

~~~
jackpirate
Is there a polite way to say "circle jerk"? I've often found myself wanting to
convey the idea without sounding so crass.

~~~
sequoia
"A small group of gentlemen working separately to achieve a common goal"

------
hsmyers
I understand that age (lower in this case) is not a barrier to talent and that
we in general seek talent. That said, why do we allow misogynist behavior? If
these wunderkind were our children (of any age) these sort of actions would be
curbed as best as might be possible. Children of all ages push boundaries---
when there are no boundaries, there are no limits to behavior.

------
Duff
What is it about Google+ that brings out the sexism debate? Not too long ago,
the public display of a person's gender was going to enpower stalkers and
rapists.

The same boorish nonsense goes on in other contexts, but doesn't seem to
attract the same level of drama.

------
aroberge
On its own, the fact that women represent less than 50% of the people involved
in programming is not proof of sexism being worse in IT than in other fields;
many other fields show significant gender imbalance.

On its own, the fact that a number of women involved in IT complain publicly
via the internet of sexism is not a proof that the situation is worse in IT
than in other fields; women in IT are more likely to communicate via the
internet than those in other fields.

Yes, there are other factors in play (parents & school counsellors bias, peer
pressure, etc.) that influence the choice of a career. But when you put it all
together, it is hard to deny that there is a sexist attitude in IT. The fact
that there might be a sexist attitude in other fields is not a valid excuse
for not doing the right thing and call out those that show a lack of respect
towards women in IT. [Yes, the same point could be made about other fields.]
To deny that there is a problem is to be part of that problem. Respect from
others is not something one should earn, it is something everyone should
expect to receive.

------
kstenerud
I'm saddened (but not surprised) at the negative reaction to the google boob
picture. The fact is, there's nothing bad about that picture at all, and Tom
is not a misogynist for posting it.

Take a close look. There are 3 people in that photo. All three are smiling.
All three are having fun. What exactly is wrong with that photo?

Is it bad because it portrays the woman as a sex object? Why is that bad? Does
it means that all women are sex objects? Obviously not. Does it mean that the
woman in the photo is ONLY good for sex? Obviously not.

So what's wrong with the photo? Is it because it encourages men to think of
all women that way? Has any such sort of causal link been found? How many men
at your office slap you on the ass on a daily basis? How many of them take you
right there, on the office desk, just like in a pornographic magazine's
depiction? What percentage of men behave like creeps? 1%? Do you honestly
think that the only thing keeping the other 99% from going on a rape orgy is
that they haven't been fed enough sexist propaganda? Do you think that the 1%
would magically stop if you could just remove all material you find
objectionable from the world?

Who is to blame for the inappropriate behavior of these creeps? Licentious
media? Just like violent video games turn our children into vicious killers?
Just like marijuana turns people into psychopaths? If someone stabs someone
with a kitchen knife, do you blame Henkel? If someone steals a car, do you
blame Grand Theft Auto? If someone rapes a woman, do you blame pornography?

Blaming someone else for a person's bad behavior is naive, childish, and
dangerous. The person to correct is the person who committed the act.

So what's wrong with that photo? Is it because its sexual nature offended some
people? Some people are offended by a picture of two guys kissing. Should we
condemn that too?

Do you believe in the possibility of some women actually ENJOYING being
treated like a sex object? If not, your objection becomes very understandable.
It's fairly common to wrongly assume that everyone else thinks the same way as
you do. If the thought of being treated that way disgusts you, then you'd
probably assume that nobody in their right mind would enjoy it. You'd probably
go through a laundry list of reasons why someone would participate:

* She was coerced into it

* She's not in her right mind

* She was drugged or drunk

The problem is that this line of thinking leads to the misogynistic view that
women are somehow incapable of making their own decisions (we see this already
in legislation that excuses the woman for having sex while drunk, but not the
man). Suddenly, woman is a poor, defenseless creature who must be protected
from everybody, especially herself.

So what's wrong with that photo? All three members are consenting and enjoying
themselves. Who are you to criticize their choice?

------
watty
The real question is why is this guy so sensitive? There are sexist people in
every industry of both sexes.

------
nickpp
Oh, just grow a pair. And a sense of humor. Sexy is GOOD.

I SO wish more posts contained sexy images (of any gender) than your
repressed, frustrated, fearful and boringly unfunny drivel.

------
geekam
Has there been a well defined study, interviews of women in the industry as to
what do they want? What do they think and go through and what would they like
changed?

------
ehutch79
you know what the solution is?

reddit/stackoverflow style voting on badges. some way of tagging someone at a
conference or whatnot as being an ass, or cool, that way you get a warning
that this person is a douche. i'm bettin the same people who are creeps are
the same people i wouldn't want to bother talking to anyway.

the only problem is someone of course is going to hack it...

------
cheez
I was at a tech meetup a couple of weeks back and I walked in to see a lot of
women. It was really refreshing.

Fast-forward a little bit and you can hear guys snickering when the women went
up.

I don't understand it but I fucking hate it. My sister is great at her job (IT
project management) and my daughter loves programming. I can't wait for her to
show some guy how to do the job.

Some of the women made the best presentations, maybe because they're women but
probably because they're just smart.

I wish I could punch all of those insecure, sexist guys in the mouth.

~~~
almightygod
Violence will most certainly not solve the issue and seems ironically to be a
typical male response.

Where these men were truly snickering at the fact women were speaking?
Correlation does not always mean causation.

I don't know what would be snicker-worthy of women speaking. I can think of
several reasons why attendees might snicker at a speaker regardless of their
sex.

~~~
cheez
I distinctly heard "snicker snicker woman snicker snicker".

I wouldn't have remembered otherwise.

~~~
almightygod
maybe it was "haha, that was a great joke...oh look a woman speaker,
awesome...dude i have a similar joke for you"

------
jasontraff
Wow - I completely read this as 'sexiest creeps' and it gave it a whole other
connotation.

------
rmrm
I'm guessing a lot of people haven't worked in other industries. Like on a mfg
floor, or at a lumber mill, or on a fishing boat. Or as part of a custodial
staff.

The sexist creep ratio in the SW industry is lower than most. The SW Industry
appears much more sensitive to the issue, however.

------
code_duck
Who is "we"? Oh, that's right - the sexist creeps who apparently make up the
software industry he's referring to.

You encounter this anywhere dominated by one sex or the other. It's not at all
unique to the software industry.

------
cafard
Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the loading docks/road crews/World Bank?

------
Hisoka
I'm glad someone called Tom out on that image he posted. It's minor in the
entire scheme of things, but what irritates me are the casual comments and
reactions like "That's ok.. haha, very funny!" It's like there's this
cognitive dissonance happening: people believe in equality between sexes, and
treating women like regular humans with respect... yet we also make casual
comments that treat females as just objects. It's not just engineers of
course, it's most men. And I'm being very very strict here. I'm talking about
saying things like "Check that ass out." or "Damn, I'll do that" when you're
with your buddies.

I may sound like a downer that can't have fun, but when the vast majority of
humans on this world end up cheating on their spouses, you have to be somewhat
serious about this.

~~~
tomjen3
Please provide evidence for your claims about cheating.

Secondly there is no issue with treating women with respect in the workplace
and have fun with them after.

------
thomasdavis
The picture is not offensive to anyone who matters, honestly if you are
offended you should probably go build a sexless utopia and die off in a
generation.

------
rimantas
I am very curiuos, what will happen when even thinking about woman as sexually
attractive will be a crime, let alone any chance of showing her that.

~~~
michaelchisari
That's a slippery slope fallacy. I grew up around feminists, and I can
guarantee you, that is not where equality leads.

~~~
cosgroveb
And before everyone starts bashing feminism by lumping them all in with
Dworkin and the most extreme examples, please try getting to know one first.
Their views are usually pretty reasonable.

~~~
mootothemax
_Their views are usually pretty reasonable_

You make it sound as if feminists are some kind of weird cult ;) But your
basic point is true: just because a woman is a feminist doesn't mean that she
thinks all penetrative sex is rape, such as Dworkin believed.

~~~
rimantas
You know, we are near the situation when asking a girl out for a cup of coffee
is perceived as an atempt to rape.

~~~
diolpah
We are not 'near' that point. The Rebecca Watson incident clearly demonstrates
that we are already there.

~~~
michaelchisari
1\. Woman does a presentation where she talks about objectification of women
in a male dominated social group.

2\. Woman gets hit on in an elevator in a foreign country after leaving a bar
at 4am. She declines.

3\. Woman mentions incident as a "What Not To Wear" style off-hand comment in
a video blog about the conference, before going on to more important things.

4\. Richard Dawkins flips his shit.

5\. Some men think this situation means politely asking a woman out for coffee
will get you accused of rape.

