

Gaming Console Ouya Raises $1 Million on Kickstarter in 8 Hours - drubio
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/07/gaming-console-ouya-raises-1-million-on-kickstarter-in-8-hours/259664/

======
mindstab
It's interesting how negative the original HN thread is. Everything from "it's
too underpowered" to straight up "Gaming on android is a sad, laggy affair"
and calling them "amateurs".

What is up with that? HN is supposed to be about the cutting edge and it just
dumped all over this project which then went on to get $1million in 8 hours. I
suggest a sizable part of the HN "doesn't get it". And this saddens and bugs
me. I come to HN for the news and also very much the commentary. But suddenly
there seems like this big anti android pro iOS bias and a bunch of curmudgeons
running things.

This device looks really cool, has amazing potential, is near free for a
console and clearly has amazing demand but HN put out the hate. What gives?

This isn't the first time I've noticed this. Recently several neat android
related announcements have gotten some strongly negative commentary here and
even none announcement iOS articles have gotten glowing praise. :(

~~~
ChuckMcM
It will be interesting to see how it plays out. There are some unanswered
questions, things like "Hmm that seems awfully inexpensive given where you are
starting from." So let's assume nVidia gives them a great deal and they pay
$10/CPU, plus memory, plus flash, plus assembly. We're looking at $65 or so to
build it. Consider something like the Beaglebone which uses a cheaper CPU and
its costs.

Now historically game console manufacturers sold consoles near (or below!)
cost and then made up the difference selling licensees as part of the games,
made famous by Nintendo early on, the 'custom game cart' that they had to make
for you. But these guys want to keep games low cost (even free) so that's a
challenge.

Then there is the OS, sure its a port of Android but it isn't Android. It has
their own stuff in it, and like all complex software packages Android is full
of bugs of varying complexity, and being a bit 'off axis' as they are they
will probably wander into less tested code. So they no doubt have at least one
and probably two or three full time Android kernel/system engineers. So that's
like a .5M$/yr burdened cost, more so if they do point optimizations to
improve their user experience.

We've got the Founder(s) (presumably the designer is on contract and they can
jettison those ongoing costs once they are done) so say they run a really
tight ship, maybe 10 people? So maybe they have a $6M/yr burn rate. How much
do they have to sell to cover those costs? What numbers did they promise their
suppliers? Lets be generous and say they can sell 100K units the first year.
That would require clearing $60/unit to break even. They currently have about
13K backers, so for everyone one they sell on Kickstarter they will need
another 10 to sell somewhere else.

Or, perhaps the Kickstarter project is all there is. Once they make the 13 -
15k units (or what ever it ends up to be) for the developers they are done.
They walk away. What sort of future does any console have when rounded to the
nearest million units there are zero out there ?

So its an interesting thing indeed. Having played with Android on the
Pandaboard I can say its not a 'fun' place to be (well if you're trying to get
something done, if you just want to hack Android its great fun) Obviously you
can't know if it will be a runaway success or a well meaning implosion but
either way its enlightening to see this crowd funded business model tried for
this class of goods.

~~~
vibrunazo
Maybe you're not familiar with Android game economics. The but most of the top
grossing games are "free" with in app payment (freemium virtual in game
items). The success of freemium varies per game categories, in more incumbent
game styles, there aren't many. But in newer innovative game types, like
casual social games, in app payment is the main revenue source for over 70% of
top grossing games. There's a clear tendency towards this model. But many
(most) developers still don't understand it well (it's far from trivial to use
right).

Their businesses model, as they make clear in their kickstarter page, is the
same as others, take 30% rev share of the games (most of the critics seem to
have not read that). Which is a multi-billionaire fast growing industry on
Android. There's nothing obviously wrong with them selling hardware cheap to
make up for it with games.

And their insistence on free games with in app payment only shows they
understand this industry much better than most game developers. Which gives
them a huge leg over slow incumbent giants like nintendo and MS. Who are still
struggling to understand what the hell this freemium thing is for. (tip: if
you see a game developer use terms like "DLC" or "DRM", it's a red flag that
they're not catching up with our time)

~~~
jiggy2011
I'm guessing this will have DRM , otherwise it's going to have enormous piracy
due to it's "open" nature.

I'm not sure what freemium would be other than "DLC"

~~~
mtgx
He just said the games will be free to play. Why does it matter if they are
pirated or not?

~~~
jiggy2011
It matters if their business model depends on getting 30% of sale value.

~~~
mtgx
You can't really pirate in-app purchases as far as I know, just the main game.
And since that one is free, piracy should be irrelevant.

~~~
jiggy2011
You could definitely pirate in-app purchases assuming they are software , not
physical things.

The games won't all be free, there just must be at least a demo.

------
jcdavis
Link to the actual project: [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-
new-kind-of-...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-
video-game-console?ref=live)

Pretty pathetic that The Atlantic is just embedding the project's video
without even an actual link. Why the hell do so many sites still do this?

~~~
jcdavis
Update: can't seem to edit my original post, but there is now a link, someone
came to their senses

------
endianswap
Current thread on OUYA: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4223627>

I'm not surprised they raised a million dollars, but I think they're surprised
since they had to bump up the availability of the 99 dollar pledge level a few
hours ago when they ran out.

~~~
blahedo
And surely they'll have to bump it again or introduce a new level; they're
already back down to 800 remaining (currently out of 10,000), still with 29
days to go. The $99 pledge level wasn't even in there initially; I think they
were expecting the bulk of their pledges to come from low-end pledges where
people reserve a username. They're also out of etched boxes ($225 level) and
even most of the developer specials ($700) are gone.

~~~
Danieru
Considering that at first they had just enough slots to reach their goal I
think they are managing the launch to maximize unit sales and hype.

What I am surprised about is that they did not raise the price above $99 with
the second top up (20,000 @ $99). Thus $99 must not be a below cost loss
leader. My guess is that they will offer as many $99 units as possible. Their
balancing act is to offer an unbounded number of units while maintaining the
air of exclusivity. Offer too many units at one time and people might thing
they are missing their sales target.

With this much hype and sales they should have decent leverage with
developers. I got the impression that a few developers they talked to were on
the fence. Their first update could be interesting.

Exciting times eh?

------
checoivan
Underpowered? I think not. Look at Nintendo DS: 67mhz Arm9. Who cares? Only
developers because it's a pain in the butt to program for the thing. Other
than that it delivers fun games and prints money(or so the meme says).

Quad core and an easy API seem like 1000x a better choice than a ps3 with 8
cores, a not so easy api, and a 10,000usd dev kit.

Yes, graphics won't compete with the next gen games, but there's more to a
game than eye candy.

------
petercooper
I almost never give to fundraisers online but I've dropped several hundred on
this - that's how much I believe we sorely _need_ a popular, open, indie-
oriented gaming device that isn't a regular PC. (And before anyone scoffs,
remember Diaspora?)

Will OUYA be the one to pull it off? With some skin in the game I'm hoping so,
but the key thing to pick up from their copy is how strongly they're looking
for _validation_ rather than just money. So even if you think their
implementation is lame at the moment, if you believe in the _idea_ of an indie
console, I'd encourage you to give the $10 just to boost the backer count
(which I think is more important in the long run). And I'd encourage them to
add a lower donation tier for exactly this reason too..

------
AshleysBrain
Try refreshing the Kickstarter page a few times. Jumps up $100-500 each
refresh. Insane!

------
unimpressive
So I have a question (Because I'm genuinely curious and I'm not sure where to
go to get this information.):

What successful projects received kickstarter funding above 100K? I've seen
plenty of smaller successes, but I want to know if anyone who took one of
these _huge_ donation piles has delivered yet.

~~~
wmf
Diaspora delivered something, although not in the timeframe they claimed.

------
Athens79
1) Developers will probably not make any money on games for it. Its a problem
for Android too. Many good iOS games will never be ported over to Android
because of this. And some developers have left Android after products didn't
make any money. Its a culture problem, plus pirates made it a terrible market
to make money 2) Open system easy to hack, its going to rub FPS multi-player
games useless. Its already killing the PC gaming of that type. 3) Licenses and
patents, and honestly I can't see those specs being sold at that $99 price tag
period. 4) Lack of marketing ability to attract the players to make the market
large enough to attract developers 5) The few open source titles that are
decent games are so late 1990's quality in graphics. Though graphics are very
highly over rated, game play is much more important and there just isn't that
many with great game play. 6) Intense pressure from Sony, Microsoft and
Nintendo will knock it down in lawsuits if it ever did gain traction. Or just
out right buy the company to kill it. 7) As mobile phones continue to push the
envelope in performance, the few good games it might be able to offer will
evolve around those more powerful phones and will probably leave that thing in
the dust with ability to play games a year or 2 down the road. Mobile gaming
ability and phone power is increasing exponentially, unlike the slow pace of
desktops which had that kind of growth a decade ago. 8) When they do start
having to make good money to solve these problems, to cover costs of the
machine, litigation's, patients, paying developers to make games worthy enough
to attract paying customers, the very people it cater to that nitch Linux Open
blah blah group will turn away from it.

This is why desktop gaming has always been the domain of Windows PC's, and for
mobile its the domain of iOS and for portable its still a nice race between
Sony and Nintendo, both of which is hurting over iOS gaming.

------
saym
What is to stop someone from making their own? I foresee custom app stores and
custom games along with people building one with a terabyte of internal
storage.

Or why not just build a PC with an OUYA OS partitioned drive?

------
shadowmint
On the bright side, because this is basically phone hardware, they can
probably manufacture at a price point that makes this viable.

...or maybe not. People aren't really great as making estimates, and that's a
_lot_ of $99 devices (10k odd units so far?), but you'd like to think they've
thought that through.

Good luck to them. They've obviously tapped into something that resonates with
a lot of people~

(...and if it doesn't work out, watching the rage face of people who think
they've bought something and then realize kickstarter _isnt a shop_ when they
get _nothing_ is going to be fun to watch...)

------
wtracy
I'm curious why they're designed their own controller and not just going with
something from, say, Logitech. Seems like one less thing to worry about.

------
duey
This looks like a really awesome idea, but I can't help but wonder if they are
walking into a patent minefield?

~~~
visualphoenix
Agreed.

[http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/130152/the_ten_most_im...](http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/130152/the_ten_most_important_video_game_.php?print=1)

The patents on video game controllers alone might be enough to kill them.
Remember the Sony/Microsoft rumble debacle?

------
guscost
Will this device be able to play audio with less than 20 milliseconds of
latency?

~~~
mtgx
Not sure, but if they update it to Android 4.1+, it should have 12 ms or
lower.

~~~
guscost
I'm worried the new figure also depends on the hardware in the Nexus, but that
would be absolutely splendid news.

------
savrajsingh
I have a feeling we have a new contender for most money ever raised on
kickstarter. See you in 29 days! 40m? Just a guess. Congrats ouya!

------
mtgx
It seems BI has an exclusive interview with them:

[http://www.businessinsider.com/ouya-raises-1-million-
kicksta...](http://www.businessinsider.com/ouya-raises-1-million-kickstarter-
xbox-2012-7)

------
comatose_kid
Let the ass kicking begin. Great idea, goog should fund em because this is one
of the ways they can one-up iOS.

------
bertomartin
Awesome, I just pushed them past $2 mil

------
mtgx
Hopefully Google will allow them access to the Play Store, otherwise devs will
have to repackage the apps for Ouya, which I'm sure it's not going to be a
huge deal if this thing takes off. But it would be a nice gesture from Google,
and it would be in their interest, too, especially if they have no plans of
doing the same thing with Google TV set top boxes.

~~~
trotsky
They're not going to be putting the play store on there for the same reason
amazon doesn't put it on the fire - their model is to provide the
payment/content ecosystem for the ol' 70/30 split.

~~~
vibrunazo
On a perfect world, they'd get a special partnership with google to get an
extra OUYA tab to the play store. For OUYA dedicated games, which would show
on OUYA devices and pay OUYA developers with that. Even if google would
sacrifice their 30% for it. It still seems like this would be the ideal deal
for all parties: users, developers, google and ouya.

------
lbrdn
Cool project, but at $99 for a console and controller they must be operating
at a loss, right? Does anyone have any insight into production costs of
something like this? It could change the way we think about the "amount
raised".

~~~
beagle3
The RaspberryPi is NOT selling at a loss for $35. Neither is the AppleTV at
$100 (or $80, which you can find new every other week on eBay). Nor are the
Roku boxes that sell at $50-$100 for 720p-1080p playback and many, many
others. Neither, for that matter, is the Huawei Android 3G phone at $80.

It can even be profitable at $100, if (and that's a huge if) they know what
they are doing.

~~~
lbrdn
No need to yell beagle (or was that a Borat impression). I am simply curious
about how much a device like this would cost a small company to build per unit
on a first run. AppleTV isn't a fair comparison given the efficiencies of
scale and what not, nor is it running video games as far as I know. And while
I don't know much about RaspberryPi, their website states that the "graphics
capabilities are roughly equivalent to Xbox 1 level of performance" which I
imagine Ouya is trying to exceed. Moreover, RaspberryPi doesn't come with a
fancy shell or a controller.

