
Modern Tech inside an Amish Horse-Drawn Buggy - justanman
http://blog.caranddriver.com/the-surprisingly-modern-tech-inside-an-amish-horse-drawn-buggy/
======
dzdt
The Amish attitude towards technology is a pretty good model of what an
eventual Mars colony will need.

When (or if) people finally travel to Mars to stay, the biggest risk to the
colony will be being dependent on imports from Earth. It will always be
expensive to send ships from Earth to Mars, so it is folly to assume that
resupply missions will continue indefinitely. So a colony which hopes to be
viable must be vigilant not to be too dependent on outside goods.

This is the same as the Amish attitude. Every item from outside is regarded as
suspicious; it MUST be rejected if it produces a dependency on the outside.
Best if it can be made inside the community; perhaps acceptable if it can be
repaired and used indefinitely even if it only comes from outside.

So a Mars colony will evaluate imports. Anything that can be made locally on
Mars is best; things which can be repaired and reused indefinitely are okay;
things which increase the dependency on the outside world will be shunned.

~~~
dreamcompiler
There's no wood on Mars. A great deal of our infrastructure (not just Amish
infrastructure) is wood-based, and the first Martians will have to find a
substitute for it. The typical substitute for wood is plastic, but that comes
from petroleum, and there's none of that on Mars either. I suppose one of the
first things we'll have to build on Mars is greenhouses -- not just for food,
but for plant-based plastic to build things with.

~~~
khuey
Or we'll just make a lot more things out of metal.

~~~
jdironman
I'm curious. What happens when one starts a fire on mars to forge a metal?

We can't ship metal, it's much to heavy. So we have to consider that beneath
the fine powdery surface of mars there lies basalt rock. Is there a type of
concrete that can be constructed from basalt material?

~~~
pjc50
Well, you can't start a fire in the atmosphere. So either you have one inside,
or (more likely) you'd use induction heating to do the forging.

Concrete requires some rather specific calcium chemistry. But basalt is quite
a good building material on its own, especially if you adopt Inca building
techniques of mortarless flat-surface construction. Then all you'd need to do
is construct interior insulating airtight shells to live in.

There's plenty of iron on the red planet, and from the red dust comes oxygen.
Nitrogen will be harder to obtain.

------
altendo
>Despite what you may have heard, the Amish aren’t against technology.
Communities adopt new gadgets such as fax machines and business-use cellphones
all the time—as long as the local church approves each one ahead of time,
determining that it won’t drastically change their way of life.

This alone is the most interesting point of the article. People not belonging
to the community, like myself, have a fixed preconceived notion of what it's
like to be Amish. I still don't know much about Amish life and culture, but
it's fascinating to see where my assumptions are wrong (and what else I may be
wrong about!)

~~~
fuhrysteve
In the area I grew up, inflated rubber tires and bicycles were not allowed,
but wooden tires on scooters were fine. Reason being, inflated tires made it
too easy to travel far from home, which was generally discouraged.

So many people I grew up with seemed to think that Amish were being
hypocritical by paying for taxi drivers to drive them around. That's an over-
simplistic view. To an Amish community, taxi fees are a tariff intended to
encourage finding a job close to home - or if at all possible - in your
backyard. The ideal Amish are taught to strive for and desire is to have a
farm and provide for your family with your hands.

Here is a great documentary about an Amish couple that gave the rare
opportunity to be filmed and interviewed. It's not about the Amish that I grew
up with, however their flavor of Amishness is philosophically equivalent
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtNXvE_rLoE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtNXvE_rLoE)

~~~
tempestn
Normally I wouldn't make an off-topic comment on region locking, but the irony
of this one amused me (emphasis mine):

This video contains content from BBC _Worldwide_ , who has blocked it in your
country on copyright grounds.

~~~
Symbiote
BBC worldwide is the commercial arm of the BBC, responsible for licensing TV
programmes abroad.

------
redsummer
A lot of people think the Amish are against technology. In fact, they
carefully consider the technology's effect on themselves and their community.
Will it really help, or is it just a new thing which will cause unintended
consequences? For instance, some Amish groups accepted cars, and their
community disappeared - when anyone can drive anywhere the community
collapsed. Now there are no Amish who allow cars. The same thing would happen
with the internet. Tech people like ourselves automatically assume that
technology is some advance, or improvement. Our peers tell us this, our
incomes depend on us believing this. In fact, technology does not improve the
human condition in most cases. It erodes it. We would be better making careful
decisions like the Amish, but our civilisation is locked onto this myth of
'progress'.

Technology should be for us, not the other way around. Unlike the Amish, we
put the cart before the horse.

~~~
chiaro
Cars give freedom to those who don't have it. It's easy to have a rosy
pastoral view of the Amish, but the reality is grim for many young women
subjugated to that culture. The ability for such people to see that the
outside world can be far less harsh than the one they are used to will
necessarily (and in my opinion _should_ ) lead to the collapse of those
communities.

~~~
redsummer
The Amish are happier than almost all Americans:
[http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2007/03/16/happiness-
wealth-a...](http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2007/03/16/happiness-wealth-and-
the-amish/)

You want those communities to collapse, because you see no other solutions
except more tech, more greed, more 'progress'. That's the hamster wheel you've
been given. What other life could there be?

~~~
int_19h
Making people happy is surprisingly easy; all it takes is a couple of
electrodes inserted into the brain. So if that's the only bar that you have,
the Amish are way overthinking it.

~~~
TeMPOraL
In theory yes; in practice, it's beyond our technological capabilities at the
moment. A better alternative would be drugs. And honestly, it's our "universal
culture" that's more susceptible to this failure mode.

~~~
int_19h
I recall reading about such experiments done on rats, and that was at least a
couple decades ago. Is it really beyond our technological capabilities? Note,
I'm not talking about electrodes to induce dreams or some such; just a simple
direct electric stimulation of the pleasure centers. Presumably, the resulting
sensation is that you wouldn't know _why_ you're happy - you're just happy.

~~~
PeterisP
Direct electric stimulation of brain (implanting electrodes) is simple only if
you don't care if the subject has a risk of fatal infection, and if performing
literal brain surgery is cheap and routine, as it is for mice/rats (again,
because a risk of death or brain damage is acceptable).

Yes, we can do that, but that would be _complicated_ to do it safely on humans
- compared to that, a lifetime supply of drugs is cheap and simple.

------
forkandwait
Whenever a discussion of Amish comes up, I have to link to _my_ favorite hard
core Anabaptist sect, the Hutterites. Unlike th Amish, the Hutterites _love_
technology. They choose what technology to use as part of a very strict church
system, like the Amish, but are very much into diesel engines and the internet
and the like (note the link below). See [1] and [2] below.

They also live communally in farming colonies of about 80 people (half
Dunbar's number) in very remote parts of Western Canada and the Northwestern
US. Historically, the Hutterites have pissed off the local non-Hutterite
farmers because the colonies are successful and can buy up local land from the
non-communal/ religious/ pacifist local farmers; they were run out of South
Dakota for their success combined with their pacifism in the early 20th
Century.

They are pacifist, just like all Anabaptists (Mennonite, Amish, etc). Unlike
English variants of Anabaptism (Quakers, etc), Hutterites and other German
derived sects drink quite a bit of alcohol, I think. I think they have a great
a-capella singing ritual tradition. I bet their food is great, too. I heard
they like hockey.

The ~1900 Hutterites are also famous among population theorist/ demographers
because their historical data provided the baseline of the highest possible,
yet realistic, human fertility society. They married early (probably with
quasi-arranged marriages), had lots of babies (much cheaper to raise in a
communal setting), were healthy with relatively low mortality, and kept great
records (German heritage...).

They are very much a going concern today, continuing to found new colonies
even a few years ago, one in Oregon 14 years ago [3] below. I have always
wanted to visit a colony, but I live in the urban Puget Sound and the closest
colony is about 3.5 hour drive away. I have read that they are quite
welcoming, as long as you are quite respectful in return (a fair trade, to my
mind).

[1] [http://www.hutterites.org/](http://www.hutterites.org/)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterite)

[3]
[http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=200...](http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20030308&slug=hutterites08)

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I knew rural BC was an outpost for Mormon offshoots that still polygamy, but
this is actually much cooler. It's weird I've never run into any, I spend a
lot of time in eastern washington.

------
seanmcdirmid
Buggies are the original self driving vehicles. Many stories about drunk guys
getting into their buggies alone, falling asleep, and waking up at home!

------
dripton
>There was actually an alternator system attempted in the last five years,” he
says. “It worked about 60 percent, but it never took off.

Generator hubs for bicycles are mature technology at this point. Including
capacitors in the taillights so they stay on when the bike is stopped. Buggies
could easily adopt them, but I guess it's not worth the bother if batteries
mostly work.

~~~
gvb
Generators or alternators driven off the wheels are not free - the horse is
now powering your lights as well as your wagon. The relatively high efficiency
of LED lights helps a lot, but your horse still with thank you for using
batteries.

The article discusses the higher efficiency of steel tires compared to rubber
tires and the emphasis on light weight. Tens of Watts of generator load on the
horse is probably more than the difference in steel vs. rubber tires.

~~~
wiredfool
If a guy that rides 1200km on a bike in 50 hours prefers a generator vs
batteries based on drag vs weight I'd say that the generator + lights is
pretty much solved technology.

------
cnnsucks
My state has cut rumble strips down the middle of many roads. The Amish are up
early and travelling around on Sundays in buggies on the shoulders. It use to
be easy to give them room; no traffic that early so you swing out across the
line and keep away from the horse. Now if you do that you hit the rumble strip
and the horse will panic; rear up and try to see what terrible thing is coming
up from behind.

------
teilo
When I worked for a Wal-Mart in Indiana in the 90s, the Amish would come into
the electronics department and buy country music cassettes and battery-powered
players. And also, I kid you not, Gameboys.

~~~
jccalhoun
I grew up near Rush county in Indiana and the Amish there loved Wal-Mart and
all the younger ones all wore Reeboks.

------
oh_sigh
How do Amish people generally make money? I know there are markets that sell
Amish goods to non-Amish, but there must be more to their income than that.

~~~
snarf21
I live in Lancaster PA and most Amish can't afford the farm land here anymore
(its become housing and malls) and have moved west. Lots of Amish now work in
the trades (construction/electrical/roofing/etc.) Someone picks them up and
takes them to their job sites. Their general low standard of living (no car
payments or electronics budgets) allow for that to be a very solid income for
most.

~~~
tbihl
Minor point, but you meant 'cost of living', I believe.

~~~
astrodust
It's inter-related. If you don't have a lot of needs you don't have a lot of
expenses.

If you're prepared to live in a cardboard box you can save a fortune on rent.
It's also a deliberately low standard of living.

------
kahrkunne
The Amish are a very interesting people, I respect them very much. I wouldn't
want to live that way, but you have to have some admiration for people who can
hold on to their principles like that in the face of modern conveniences.

------
davidgerard
Original link:
[http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/technology/a24666/how-t...](http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/technology/a24666/how-
the-amish-build-a-buggy/)

------
hrayr
All this tech, and no pictures of them anywhere in the article.

~~~
stan_rogers
Graven images, you mean?

------
JoeAltmaier
Its all about self-sufficiency.

~~~
baobrain
I'm somewhat confused. As the article says, buggy components are often
manufactured off-site (e.g. fiberclass body), how does this make them self-
sufficient?

~~~
ars
It's self sufficiency _after_ purchase not before.

They don't mind buying things they can't make, as long as they can repair or
do without them afterward.

They won't buy things that need constant connection to the outside - like grid
electricity.

They will buy a generator as long as they can take it completely apart and put
it back together. But if they can't do that they won't.

LED's seem unexpected to me, but I suspect they are OK with them because the
lights are not for _them_ they are for the outside world. As far as they are
concerned they don't need them (so can do without).

Note: Things (such as buying a generator) vary by community.

~~~
rconti
Is the vastly lower energy consumption of LEDs perhaps a virtue that makes
them preferable to incandescents, even though they are far more complicated to
manufacture?

~~~
ars
They can't manufacture either of them, so complexity of manufacture doesn't
enter into it.

So I assume they like LED's for the same reason you do, less battery.

If they _did_ make incandescents (I suppose if they tried they could), then
the comparison would be harder for them, and I would expect some communities
to go one way, some the other.

~~~
ams6110
I would imagine they could manufacture incandescents if they so chose.
Glassblowing seems like something they'd be OK with. And otherwise it's just a
bit of wire and a vacuum.

~~~
ars
That wire is pretty special though, it's a coil of coil, with extremely tight
tolerance. i.e. if you look at it it looks like a coil, but actually the wire
that makes up that first coil is itself an even smaller coil.

You have to wind it such that no part of the wire touches (or it will burn out
at that spot).

It's titanium which is not an easy material to make wire out of without
special industrial equipment. And not pure titanium either, but has special
additives.

You have to make it without _any_ variation in thickness! Even a 1% variation
will cause it to rapidly overheat and burn out.

It's also not a vacuum in there, but a mixture of nitrogen and argon, which
needs special equipment to gather.

In short they could make a bulb like what Edison made, but without an
industrial base not anything like a modern bulb.

And despite all that, those bulbs sell for pennies.......

~~~
int_19h
Isn't incandescent bulb filament made of tungsten, rather than titanium?

~~~
ars
Yes, sorry, that's a typo. The high melting point is what I was thinking of,
and that's tungsten.

