
How We Created a Fake Vodka Brand to Promote Our Startup - kevinbracken
http://blog.speakeasy.is/post/57069846759/how-we-created-a-fake-vodka-brand-to-promote-our
======
columbo
Like everyone else has mentioned this is a very dangerous move.

The label doesn't look like it includes all of the required information (
[http://www.ttb.gov/pdf/brochures/p51902.pdf](http://www.ttb.gov/pdf/brochures/p51902.pdf)
).

This could be bad, very bad, if something like this happens (
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-16742167](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-
england-16742167) ) who is responsible?

~~~
TwiztidK
To make it worse, all alcohol labels have to be approved prior to use. The
post makes no mention of whether they actually submitted their label for
approval, but it may not have been approved within their time frame.

If it weren't approved, every venue their vodka was served at could face
penalties, such as having their liquor license suspended or revoked.

~~~
testing12341234
_The post makes no mention of whether they actually submitted their label for
approval_

From the article:

"The problem with this idea was two-fold: one, having previously worked in
spirits marketing, I knew that spirits brands' turnaround time was way too
long to get approval by February 14th"

Which seems to imply not only that they knew the law, but actively took it in
to consideration.

~~~
jasondenizac
I'm pretty sure they mean marketing approval, not regulatory approval. Parse
before you preach.

~~~
mbreese
I read it the other (regulatory approval) way the first time too...

------
makerops
Isn't this a federal felony? I am not positive, but as a former bar owner, it
is for sure a federal felony to mislabel booze; I am not sure about how things
play out, if you are not selling it.

Edit: Not to pile on, but as someone who has poured a shit load of money,
sweat and blood into a bar in the past, if I read something like this, I would
stay as far away from you as possible as I wouldn't want to open myself up to
the liabilities your company is sure to cause an establishment.

~~~
kevinbracken
Our company is a little different these days. We had a team change and pivoted
to a more professional customer segment (and from events to venues.) I thought
this would be an entertaining story to share with HN from a scrappier time,
though :)

~~~
makerops
Not really an excuse in my opinion, no good can come from posting something
like this. Granted we all make dumb mistakes at some point, but very few are
felonious, and even fewer try to use it as a marketing avenue.

~~~
legitsource
Generally, if you are going to commit a felony, don't do it in public.

If you get away with it (at least for the time being), you don't bring it up
again, and you sure don't post it to social media sites.

------
gabemart
If I were this company, I would seriously consider taking this article down
and not mentioning it in public again. I think it's fairly likely that this
conduct it quite seriously illegal. I hope you guys don't get into any
trouble.

~~~
kevinbracken
Speaking of which, we are seeking a new lawyer for our startup, preferably
based in New York. Please get in touch!

~~~
barylen
Seek a new marketing team. You are insane.

~~~
jasondenizac
"You are insane" sounds like a great compliment to a marketer.

~~~
anigbrowl
Which is why you can't trust people who work in marketing. They're
professionally dishonest.

~~~
bennyg
All people who work in marketing are dishonest. You literally can't trust any
of them.

Edit: I guess sarcasm should be mentioned.

------
gallerytungsten
As many others have pointed out, this stunt is almost certainly illegal. In
addition to the obvious violations of Federal law, state and local laws were
probably violated as well. This is not a matter of "failing to comply with
regulations." This is a matter of operating a Distilled Spirits Plant without
a license.

Regarding labels, all labels are subject to approval by the TTB. (Not ATF.
TTB, or more fully, the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau, was split
off from what is now ATFE, in the Homeland Security re-organization of 2003.)

Simply to submit a label for approval, you must have a Federal Basic Permit,
along with various other federal approvals. Even if you're simply a
"rectifier" (someone who blends and bottles, with no distilling) you need
state and local permits as well. Labels generally have to be registered on the
state level as well. This varies by state, but usually involves submitting
your COLA (TTB certificate of label approval) to the relevant state agency and
paying a fee.

There are also standards of fill and alcohol content, although that's kind of
irrelevant, as the operation was illegal from the get-go.

As others note, the labels themselves probably weren't compliant with
applicable law, (CFR 27) although again, that's also beside the point. For
those curious, download the TTB's "Beverage Alcohol Manual, Volume 2,
Distilled Spirits." It explains all the requirements. There's a learning
curve. Even if you follow all the rules, your label may get sent back for
revisions. I have yet to get one through on the first try.

Even if you give spirits away, some states have laws regarding advance
notification of the state alcohol authority. You might also need to have
bartenders with "responsible vendor" certification pouring the drinks. Of
course, you have to be licensed to submit this notification, although some
jurisdictions allow for unlicensed parties to obtain "special event" permits.

In summary, OP most likely broke a bunch of laws. On the bright side, they
will probably get away with it, as the TTB is overworked and probably won't
bother with something this penny-ante. A more likely danger is the state
alcohol agency.

My advice? Don't pull this kind of stunt again. If you really must, work with
a licensed DSP (distilled spirits plant).

Source: I'm a distiller.

~~~
snowwrestler
This is a great illustration of regulatory capture: immense regulatory
complexity that obstructs even the most innocuous giveaway program, thereby
protecting the incumbent companies who have already invested the time and
money to cope with it.

And yes, I know that these regulations exist to protect consumer safety from
bad actors, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. Well-intended regulations and
regulatory capture are not mutually exclusive concepts.

~~~
joshAg
how is that regulatory capture? I can see over regulation, maybe, but what did
any of that have to do with the regulating agency doing the bidding of those
its regulating instead of acting for the public good?

~~~
snowwrestler
The best clue it is regulatory capture is that despite the regulations
obviously being so burdensome and slow, an incumbent business is supportively
enumerating them rather than complaining about them.

Why? Because the barrier to competitors is more valuable to them than the
burden of the regulations.

------
refurb
Wow, so many problems with this. As others have mentioned your label likely
doesn't conform to federal standards. Also, you can't just _give away_ alcohol
from what I understand, there are permits and procedures that need to be
followed. The fact you "manufactured" alcohol without a permit is a huge one
as well. Even though you were only relabelling, I'm sure there is some tax you
have to pay.

You don't want to mess with the ATF. They are notorious for bringing down the
hammer. Let's hope they don't go to their trust method of "Always Think
Forfeiture"

~~~
pdx
There are indeed laws relating to proper labeling of food and alcohol that you
sell. _They 're not selling it._

There are indeed laws that prohibit people who manufacture alcohol from also
being the ones who sell it to consumers. _They 're not selling it._

You can label things any damn way you want to label them, _if you 're not
selling them._ If you want to go home tonight and print out a label that says
"Vinegar", and paste it on your Vodka bottle, I promise you won't be breaking
any laws. If you then give that Vodka to your friend, you're still not
breaking any laws, provided your friend is an adult.

The level of hysterical paranoia by other posters in this thread is confusing.

~~~
CaveTech
But the venues receiving the vodka are _most definitely_ selling it, proven by
the fact that it ended up included in bottle service.

If it was a donation to an individual, you could get away with ignoring the
rules, but they're giving vodka away to businesses, knowing that the business
likely intends on selling it.

~~~
pdx
I think it's OK.

There's already a ton of businesses who sell custom wine labels for you to use
to relabel your own wine. The main customers of these companies are businesses
who use them as gifts to their customers, as a form of marketing/advertising.

~~~
rhizome
Crucial distinction: "gifts."

------
josephjrobison
This is pretty dumb. You're taking the "move fast and break things" playful
mantra to the real world with real regulations and real dangers. It's cute
that you're playing it off like "ohh we need a lawyer, help us" but seriously
this is stupid from all angles.

------
zhamilton89
Interesting idea, great hustle, scary to repackage food in non-food
facilities. You check the laws for repackaging alcohol? I'm wondering if your
friendly local ATF agents will be paying a visit soon. Something to keep in
mind...

~~~
kevinbracken
Thanks! If we were transferring milk I might be a little more concerned, but
we sterilized everything in the dishwasher beforehand, and were using vodka to
keep it extra-sterile ;)

~~~
endersshadow
Alcohol labelling laws are _much_ more stringent than food labelling laws.
Good luck, dude. I hope you don't have charges pressed against you.

------
brvs
"My Younger Brother Thinks I'm Cool Because I Gave Him A Bag of Oregano with
"WEED" Written on it. Here's How."

------
yetanotherjosh
At best this is ethical grey area territory. It's disturbing, all and the more
disturbing that there are people cheering it on. I hope I don't end up at a
party where the consumables have been manually swapped out by clever
(desperate?) marketing people. Sorry, I'm just not rock and roll enough to
appreciate deceit when it comes to things we eat and drink.

------
bdcs
> We sterilized them in the dishwasher and were ready to go.

Why, pray tell, must you sterilize a container before you put an ethanol
solution into it? ;)

~~~
kevinbracken
Easiest way to get the sticky labels off!

------
joshdance
Cool branding and way to hustle. Reminds me of PG essay Do Things That Don't
Scale - [http://paulgraham.com/ds.html](http://paulgraham.com/ds.html)

~~~
kevinbracken
We were definitely pretty inspired by the Airbnb Obama-O's story

------
pallandt
You sure have a lot of trust in 'sometimes as little as $9 for half a gallon'
vodka that you planned to serve to other people.It shows how young you are,
and not in a good light. Unfortunately while this move might've been regarded
as a success for your company, it could've very well damaged your personal
brand.

------
jasondenizac
The amount of knee-jerking on this thread is why we can't have nice things.

~~~
bowlofpetunias
This kind of juvenile behavior is not a "nice thing". At least not in the
context of running a business.

~~~
jasondenizac
I actually think this promotion was extremely on-brand for what this startup
is (or was) doing. I can't speak to the regulatory compliance angle, but the
fact is that this was clever, effective, and well-placed customer contact.
It's not the risk profile that I would personally look for, but it is a little
sad to see so many on HN rushing to condemn it.

We can't have nice things when people who claim to be "disruptive" are
actually busy pursuing safe, risk-averse targets.

~~~
ihateloggingin
I don't really care about ATF regulations, but there is no moral high ground
here. This was just plagiarism. These people pretended to have done something
that they did not do. They took credit for someone else's work.

So "we can't have nice things" here means "we can't plagiarize vodka"? Well
you can't plagiarize Steven King either. Deal with it.

~~~
bluefinity
So, if I buy 1000 pens, and have my company name printed on them, I'm
plagiarizing someone else's work? That's nonsense.

Cheap vodka is a commodity, not an art form.

~~~
ihateloggingin
It would be if you lied to people and told them that you made the pens.

The example you chose is deliberately one in which it would be assumed that
you were not asserting authorship. Frankly, choosing that example shows you're
dishonest.

------
callmeed
You should've ran that vodka through a Brita or DIY filter

[http://gizmodo.com/5901746/vodka-alchemy-how-to-change-
cheap...](http://gizmodo.com/5901746/vodka-alchemy-how-to-change-cheap-clear-
hooch-from-terrible-to-tolerable)

~~~
Macsenour
That's what I said! It would have improved it!

------
jsumrall
Bottling Permit:
[http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAW...](http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$ABC96-A$$@TXABC096-A+&LIST=LAW)

------
tegansnyder
What if this was a fake story up about how they created a fake product to
promote there startup and sell it as a real story to drive traffic to their
startup? Either way a dangerous idea.

------
deleted_account
"The video was viewed 500 times, almost entirely by people in Las Vegas
according to the analytics. It was a huge hit, and we thought we left a pretty
good impression.

(Except with the department of health, hah!)"

[http://imgur.com/QV4EYpx](http://imgur.com/QV4EYpx)

lolwut. I wonder how many people are submitting this blog post to
ATFtips@atf.gov just for the lulz.

------
matthuggins
Sorry this is totally off-topic, but I love the background music for the
video. Can you share whose remix that is?

------
MichaelGG
BTW, it doesn't seem like your site works if Faceblock is blocked (like say,
via Ghostery or something).

~~~
Breefield
Hey Michael, Yes—our require.js dependency chain relies on Facebook connect
loading. So Ghostery is breaking things. I'll consider how I'm going to fix
this. I suppose the most obvious solution is not making it a dependency.

~~~
jasondenizac
Check out
[https://github.com/mozilla/SocialShare](https://github.com/mozilla/SocialShare)
and Persona :)

