

Why I read Hacker News even though I understand very little of it - alexmr
http://alexrosen.com/blog/2011/05/sponge-learning/

======
duopixel
Sponge learning is awesome, but you must always remember to act upon it.
Knowing that CoffeeScript is hot in the web dev scene is great, but in the end
it amounts to little more than industry gossip.

True understanding comes from actually trying to do it yourself, technologies
stop being buzzwords and they become tools.

That said, kudos to the OP for trying to Learn Python the Hard Way!

~~~
alexmr
Totally. Figuring out what to spend time on is definitely one of the hardest
parts since there's so much out there. But reading and hacking on 4 chapters
of the django book in a day taught me more than reading for a year.

~~~
ineedtosleep
Looking into diving into Django as well -- what Django book are you referring
to, if I may ask?

~~~
alexmr
reading this one and I think it's super clear:
<http://www.djangobook.com/en/2.0/>

------
rlander
Two years ago, when I started reading HN, I was a php programmer who didn't
even know what functional programming was.

Now most of my personal projects are written in my new favorite language,
Erlang. Sponge learning _is_ awesome, specially when you supplement it with
lots of hard work. Thanks HN.

------
schme
I have been the victim of sponge learning for many years now, HN being part of
it for about a year. I can talk about a wide range of techy subjects but I've
never really made or done anything to show for it. I learn bits from here and
there without never going very deep. I've read through (and done most of the
exercises from) K&R and Dive Into Python to name a couple, yet I haven't
written a project over 500 LOC.

I've loved technology as long as I can remember, but when it comes to my local
circles I've always been alone with it. Sponge learning is great and (as the
writer mentioned) it deduces the amount of unknown unknowns, but without peer
encouragement or -at least- approval it's very difficult to actually do
something with it.

My sincere respect for everyone who has done something with their passions
(that includes you alexmr!)

~~~
capnbuzzword
I just had to register to comment on this one.

Wow, that struck a chord. Pretty much every sentence rings true, especially
the peer encouragement one. For me it's the availability of easier
entertainment - why write that python bookmark creation date histogram
plotter, when I'm tired and can just waste the evening reading Reddit? Oh, and
there's the procrastination habit I've been nursing for over a decade.

On the other hand, having someone as a sounding board to bounce ideas off, and
additionally to guard me from going off tangents and getting distracted - that
helps make some progress.

Have you scouted around for a local hackerspace
(<http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/List_of_Hacker_Spaces>)? I did, but I'm using
the language barrier (expat) and some leftover social anxiety as excuses to
not pursue that road.

All else aside, would you be interested in starting a sort of a study group -
just a place one can post their ideas and have others provide brainstorming,
feedback and motivation?

I think that may work - I remember my most productive streaks were when a
friend had an issue to solve and I would swoop in on the opportunity to help.
When faced with a similar issue of my own, I would endlessly procrastinate and
often fail. If others have also experienced similar situations, creating such
a space to facilitate pair programming could increase everyone's productivity.

~~~
gtani
There's also hack nights in meetup.com and other sites where you basically
announce your project/problem/ or just a snippet you need to write and find a
pair.

Check out resources like scala-user, which is designated newbie-friendly,
railsbridge.org and codereview.stackexchange.com.

<http://www.scala-lang.org/node/199>

Also relevant: remote pairing tools

<http://blog.tridgell.net/?p=111>

[http://blog.coryfoy.com/2010/08/technically-distributed-
tool...](http://blog.coryfoy.com/2010/08/technically-distributed-tools-and-
techniques-for-distributed-teams/)

[http://www.smashingapps.com/2011/01/10/7-coolest-real-
time-c...](http://www.smashingapps.com/2011/01/10/7-coolest-real-time-
collaboration-web-apps-you-might-not-know-about-but-should.html)

------
eneveu
I like Alex's concept of "sponge learning" and reducing "unknown unknowns".
I've actually been doing this unconsciously for quite a while.

Let's say there is a debate about the best VPS provider on the HN front page.
I have no need for a VPS _right now_ , and I sadly don't have the time to read
the whole debate. Instead, I skim the discussion, bookmark it (on pinboard)
with appropriate tags, and know it will be there when I do need to choose a
web host.

This also applies to "unknown unknowns": a month ago, I saw the discussion on
CloudFare ( <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2631019> ). I made a mental
note that some services might actually help mitigate DDOS attacks, and made a
bookmark for later use.

I could make an analogy with a database: I don't have enough time / memory to
learn and remember everything I read on HN. Instead, I use my brain like an
"index", the database being my Pinboard bookmarks. I think it's time to expand
to other databases, too: I should try out EverNote or Workflowy to store free-
form thoughts and other "non-bookmarkable" stuff.

~~~
gtani
This was a good thread about building "notes compressions": cheat sheets,
outlines, other mnemonics on paper

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2658818>

Yesterday, there was this woman in a coffee shop (probably a PhD student) who
had the smallest densest handwriting i've ever seen, doing this for a Physical
Chemistry text. There must have been 3,000 words on each 8x11 page.

------
Sandman
What I noticed in these 847 days I've been here is that HN's comments spoiled
me. I now seek the same level of discussion on other sites and most of the
time find myself disappointed.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I have abandoned other sites entirely. I even get impatient at my
family/friend's postings on Facebook - too much 'me too' and 'cool!' noise.

------
blackboxxx
I did the exact thing with Slashdot, when I first got on the Internet in '98.
And I'd read Linux Journal although much of that was over my head as well.

But slowly you learn, and get to know the stuff, and then it gets boring and
so you check out something else you know little about. That's what happens to
me.

I think you're on to a good strategy alex.

~~~
Andrenid
Yeah Slashdot started it for me too (well IRC, but website-wise the first was
Slashdot). I'm a high school drop-out (now 31) who somehow managed to make a
comfortable career off web development and IT project management thanks almost
entirely to "sponge learning" off IRC, Slashdot, HN (more recently) and the
Internet in general.

I've never done any formal training, I just wholeheartedly believe in
immersing yourself in what you want to learn, and specifically immerse
yourself at a deeper level than you're comfortable with to force yourself to
work harder.

I can quite literally say my entire adult education from Year 10 onwards came
from the Internet, and I owe my career, house, vehicles, all of it to sites
like HN :)

------
seagaia
Hey, this is good. And it inspired the guy to go deeper into some of the
subjects!

Sometimes, a problem is that people only go to sponge learning...and then
stop. As a professor of my friend's said...people are getting better and
better at being able to talk about something for five minutes...then that's
it. Thanks to wikipedia, lots of people can seem smart, but not actually
understand something in depth.

I find XKCD also to blame for part of this. If I had a dollar for every time
someone made a joke about the Axiom of Choice...

~~~
LukeShu
I feel like this is a problem too. You actually got me thinking about this,
and since I don't think I do this, how I avoid it.

I don't think I do anymore. I mean, I do less than other people, but I don't
go deeper like I used to.

I think the solution, is books. I'm normally a little disdainful of those who
have bookcases of technical (read: computer/programming) books, I can get the
same or better info on the Internet (certain books excluded, but these books
don't take entire bookcases).

But this is because I've progressed far enough in my understanding of this
field that I wouldn't benefit particularly much from these books. Which, I
think is why my learning in other areas has slowed, I no longer go to the
bookstore. That means I don't by chance pick up a book on extra-dimensional
physics. Because I don't need a book to help me pick up CodeIgniter or Python.
This, of course, implies a tendency I have, to not go shopping, I only go into
a store if I know what I'm going to buy.

I think that it is hugely beneficial to just walk through a bookstore, and
just pick up a book on a subject that is interesting to you, that you _don't_
know a lot about.

~~~
seagaia
Usually books are interesting and useful. CS seems to be a different thing, as
most things are available online for free, and there is a large community.
Bookstores are still fun to go to (although I feel like they may be a dying
breed).

It always helps to work on exercises (for stuff like math), but for CS, to
pick something interesting you want to do in a language(s), but is small - and
that can be a hard part. It's getting harder for me to figure out what to use
a language for - picking up a language's syntax and nuances is relatively easy
(okay, excluding Haskell), but it's worthless unless you have something you
want to work on.

------
raju
Great post.

I have often thought about the way I learn, and it's very much 'sponge
learning' (nice term BTW).

I am on a journey to learn Clojure, and improve my JavaScript skills. Much
like the author, I read blog-posts, books, the Google groups as well as take
any code samples found there and play with them in the REPL. A lot of the
posts (especially some on the Google Groups) don't always make sense to me -
but I hope that I will have filed it away somewhere. Maybe someday it will all
come together :)

Again, nice post.

~~~
minikomi
Any sponge friendly links on clojure will be most porously appreciated

~~~
raju
One of my favorite resources is the #clojure tag on Twitter. I use Tweetie and
have bookmarked a search on that.

Here are a few sites from my GReader

<http://www.bestinclass.dk/blog.html>

<http://nakkaya.com/>

<http://freegeek.in/blog/>

<https://groups.google.com/group/clojure>

And here are a few tabs that I currently have open (Maybe this weekend I will
get to them :D)

<https://github.com/dbushenko/ClojureBlog>

[http://skillsmatter.com/podcast/scala/talk-by-patrick-
fredri...](http://skillsmatter.com/podcast/scala/talk-by-patrick-fredriksson)

<http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/ring_introduction>

<http://www.codequarterly.com/2011/rich-hickey/> (Interview with Rich)

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2682191>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2709319>

Hope these help :)

~~~
minikomi
Grand! Thanks muchly.

------
topbanana
The most upvoted comment on the post (Martin Doms):

Everyone on hacker news is motivated by money. It gets old. There's a huge
vibe of "I don't care about this technical mumbo jumbo any more than I have to
to make a quick buck". It's VERY trendy/hipster culture there. They jump on
all of the silly buzzword bandwagons and distrust tried and true technologies.

I'm not saying I don't read the site - some of the articles are very good. But
I don't like to be around people primarily motivated by money. Those kinds of
people make me very uncomfortable.

~~~
wallawe
I saw that and disagree with him. A lot of people involved in [tech] startups
are interested in money. However most, including myself, simply have a passion
for building or contributing to something new. It's about learning, exploring
and discovering. It is apparent that this guy needed to spend a little more
time browsing HN before making this comment.

------
pknerd
Best thing about HN that it filters out crap and produces quality stuff. Just
because of HN I came across two entrepreneurs who are more than helpful to
guide me offline whenever I need.

Thanks PG and Team to give such a quality site. Now I don't visit TechCrunch
etc to find out Information. HN does it for me and saves my time

P.S: I am already a techie but a Biz noob and HN is helping me to become an
entrepreneur.

~~~
hackermom
That's a very subjective view. A year ago, Hacker News really was _HACKER_
News. Today it's not. It's Startup News, and Popular Blogstar Gives His Lofty
Opinion On Something News. I'm glad that it benefits and entertains someone,
but I'm also a bit sad that it stopped doing the same for me and everyone else
who used to visit this site for _HACKER_ News.

~~~
zandor
It actually started out as Startup News.

<http://ycombinator.com/announcingnews.html>

<http://ycombinator.com/hackernews.html>

------
jasonrodriguez
I'm right there with you. I have been an avid reader of HN for going on 2
years now. While I can't sit down and develop killer software from scratch, I
am slowly learning more and more about technology and programming, and a lot
of it is thanks to the great HN community.

I just started ready the updated edition of Learn Python The Hard way, and
really enjoy it. It's the first book on programming that I have read that
throws you right into the thick of things, get's you started writing code from
the outset. Feel free to send me a message or email me if you want to bounce
and ideas off of each other with Python or anything else, I get the impression
we are both starting off on the same page. Should be a fun adventure!

~~~
elxrr
"Feel free to send me a message or email me if you want to bounce and ideas
off of each other with Python or anything else, I get the impression we are
both starting off on the same page"

Is that open to all?

~~~
colson04
I just started LPTHW as well and would like to get in on the discussion too

~~~
capnbuzzword
Would you guys be interested in setting up a "study group", sort of a
Procrastinators Anonymous for wanna-be developers?

I can't begin to count the books I've skimmed over and not completed a single
exercise. LPTHW was really nice in the way it gave you nothing else to do but
exercises. Perhaps something as simple as a small, tight-knit forum (plenty of
free forum providers) & IRC channel (something like freenode #python-studygrp)
can be useful to bust the barrier of "I'll just start on that
exercise/project/book when I'm a bit less tired." Somebody shoots an idea of
something they've been meaning to do and others can jump in with
brainstorming, ideas, pair programming and general "let's just do it"
attitude.

Hell, I know I've been meaning to write a python script to draw a daily
histogram of the creation times of Opera bookmarks, but I never got around to
it. If I had a twin, I'd prod myself to hunker down and just write those
<1KLoC.

So if anyone's interested in the group thing, just drop me a line so I can set
it up tonight (CEST timezone here).

~~~
elxrr
Sent you an e-mail.

~~~
jasonrodriguez
If you guys figure something out for a study group or IRC chat, email me! I
would love to have some people going through LPTHW with me to keep each other
at it. Like a lot of people, I always find myself starting the learning
process with enthusiasm, but then dropping the hat when other projects come
up. Really need the support to help make programming a priority.

~~~
colson04
Same here - support and group understanding are critical for taking things to
the next level. Send me an email if anything takes form.

~~~
elxrr
E-mailed all of you.

------
jechen
This is exactly the kind of mentality that one should develop on HN (or if
they want to get anywhere in the industry). It reminds me of a recent post I
read that people aren't intrinsically separated into "technical" and "non-
technical" people. If you have the patience and the will, you can become
competent at either. :) Read/learn on!

------
farnsworth
I did this with Reddit years ago when much of the front page was
programming/computer-related. I realized it was an awesome subject, spent a
lot of time trying to figure out what they were talking about, and eventually
changed my major to software engineering.

~~~
zobzu
I hope this site wont become reddit ;-) The issue is that the communities are
open and when it reaches a critical point, it all becomes like
reddit/slashdot/whatnot as it will follow the majority of people's interest.

So let's hope, this site doesn't grow too much ;-)

~~~
mark_story
The same thing happened with Digg, it used to be tech based. Then it got
popular, then they screwed it up, and now no one uses it. I think hacker news
can avoid this by keeping their minimal UI and not adding shiny bits.

------
lambersley
I was referred to HN by a former colleague only 4 months ago. I'm the farthest
from being a programmer of any sort, but I work in and around technology and
he knew I was somewhat of a 'knowledge whore' aka philosopher. I like being in
the know. "Sponge learning" is a great practice. I walk away from the monitor
each day knowing what I don't know.

Thanks HN

------
ericelias
Alex, thanks for the post. This is definitely how I read HN and the links to
the learning resources has helped accelerate learning new material.

------
aorshan
Awesome post. I am in the exact same boat as you. I read this stuff every day
as inspiration and to learn more about the world of programming and computers.
I am also working through python to learn my first language (chose python
because of xkcd). Feel free to email me if you want to discuss difficulties or
challenges with programming in python or in general.

------
127
You can certainly get part of the big picture from reading Hacker News, but if
you're going to learn anything in depth, I seriously suggest taking a class.
That way someone else has already done all the hard work in collecting all the
material in easily digestable chunks and even gives his or her valuable time
in trying to make you understand it all.

------
bprater
And even when you understand a lot about these technologies -- it can be a
great reminder of things to dabble in and see if they fit your model of how
you work. This week I jumped into using Less (a CSS tech like Sass) after
noticing a post on it.

How happy I am -- Less (or a similar tech) is now going to be a permanent
fixture in my webdev world!

------
canistr
Judging from the fact that he helped make twordsie, I wouldn't say he's
exactly at level zero. Rather misleading.

------
maren
Totally agree - I'm a complete newbie when it comes to tech but I am learning
at a fast clip because of HN :)

------
krashidov
Besides the technical stuff, the links and discussions here on HN have helped
me with entrepreneurial concepts the most. It helps when really established
and well known people, and people who have plentiful experience in starting,
running, and marketing a business are discussing things.

------
elebertus
this is almost exatcly how I learn. It is certainly the reason why I read hn,
and associate with people who are generally much more experienced than I am
(they're great friends of primarily).

I am still very much learning about programming in general, but the beat
advice I ever got was this: just write programs any way you can, and learn
what you did 'wrong'. there are always different ways to solve problems but
the best way to get better is through practice.

its cool to see someone else (and by the comments, many others) doing the same
thing I do.

------
Dramatize
I think this is why I love listening to Build and Analyze by Marco -
<http://5by5.tv/buildanalyze>

~~~
Anti-Ratfish
The other 5by5 shows often have stuff to offer too. Although I'm sure you know
this...

~~~
Dramatize
I'm subscribed to 8 of them :)

B&A is relevant because I'm not a iOS developer (though I do like coffee).

------
jorgeortiz85
Eternal September.

~~~
brianwillis
Are you really going to criticize someone for acknowledging that they're new
and have stuff to learn?

~~~
jorgeortiz85
I think it's great. I wish more people were as eager to learn new things as
the OP.

I do think it comes at a cost to the rest of the community, though, when so
many people participating in a technical community don't really understand
much of the discussion.

~~~
gaurav_v
Because they're ... reading it?

~~~
Locke1689
No, he's got a point. New members tend to just be going through stuff that
older members figured out long ago. This causes reposts or beginner material
to be posted and talked about more often, leaving the more experienced members
unsatisfied. Eventually, the experienced members leave for greener pastures
and bring a lot of knowledge with them. Worse, this accelerates the spiral and
degrades the quality of the site further.

Hacker News helps mitigate this through the continual involvement of PG and
YC. Because there are a group of experienced technical people who are grounded
to the site, it helps keep quality up. While I have noticed a slight decline
in the site, it's far less than I noticed with Digg, Slashdot, or Reddit.

~~~
__mark
So people who want to learn from HN should not?

From what you two are saying a person like myself, who is just starting out
and therefore not writing much in the way of code or blogposts, should not be
reading HN because I can't join the discussion with anything but questions?

What about likeminded people discussing a topic that interests them? Is there
no room for that?

~~~
shii
I think the idea they're trying to convey can be summarized thusly:

lurk moar.

~~~
rufibarbatus
Of course, some elite will outgrow any community save for the few right,
private channels in IRC (as with reading the newspaper, anyone will frown at
the oft-jornalistic reporting of whatever they know too well). Conversely,
some newcomers should really be lurking more, or at least asking around at
StackExchange before asserting anything here.

But since the point of HN seems to be "sponge learning" at large (of course,
different levels of sponge learning), I don't see any sane way of moderating
what _should_ be worthy of HN from what _should_ be asked or posted elsewhere,
so long as it has the feel and common interests of the community, and
"gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."

------
dhughes
It's nice to know there are more of us spongers out there, some of us don't
have a blog though _suspicious look_

------
tilt
I think you might be happy to hear this, I'm a noob as you are and TIL that
I'm "sponge learning" aswell! Thanks!

------
boscomutunga
Sponge learning is very good, especially when one wants to learn new
vocabulary and tech jargon.

------
Hari_Seldon
I would class myself as an advanced user, not a developer but someone with
interest and enthusiasm for technology. The main reason that I visit HN is
that for me, the level of debate is higher. Far less fanboyism and trolling
than most tech sites and IMHO - up there with slashdot. That's high praise for
me \\. is my favourite site

------
known
_it, definitely reduces my unknown unknowns_

------
kurrent
whew, i thought it was just me

------
SmartFone
I've been reading HN for over a year even though I'm not the best developer.
It simply teaches useful info about how to get things done that I would not
get otherwise.

For instance, the case studies on starting a T-shirt company Snowpocalypse
2011 - bam! Knowledge of how to do that. Or the posts on business models in
the music industry, links to Mixergy, et cetra, et cetra.

HN basically is extremely entertaining - and the most valuable business site I
read.

------
kahawe
It is interesting how synonymous "hacking" and "programming" has become with
"web programming" all of a sudden over the last few years...

~~~
agscala
It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that programming IS taking a trend towards
mostly web development. Of course there will always be non-webdev programming,
but it certainly is becoming more ubiquitous.

------
hackermom
Alternative title: Why I read Startup/Popular Blogstar news even though I care
for very little of it.

Anyone else who has noticed how radically the news content on HN has changed
since just last year? HN is dead, long live the new HN.

~~~
randallsquared
Not really, but I do remember people making this complaint in 2008, 2009, and
2010. :)

------
matmann2001
Nailed it.

