
What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? - ForHackernews
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/12/from-prison-to-silicon-valley/603406/
======
newsreader
I spent 19 years of my life incarcerated. My life of crime started when my
family moved to East Los Angeles and I decided to become a gang member at the
age of 15. My last stint in prison was fourteen years straight; having been
sentenced to 21 years but was granted parole on my first parole hearing.
During my prison time, I enrolled in educational activities and got my GED, an
Associate of Arts degree with honors, and later a degree in Computer
Information Systems. Needless to say, that it took me time to adjust to a
completely different type of life on the outside than the one I had been
accustomed to. More than once I had the experience of being rejected, and of
job offers being withdrawn, because of my criminal history. For the last 20
years, I have been working as a software developer and make a good living
thanks to the career I chose while in prison. I hope more companies have the
courage to take a chance on others such as myself that have paid their debt to
society and are trying to live a normal life. Kudos to Slack and all the
companies that believe in giving people a second chance.

~~~
abvdasker
Thanks for sharing your story. It really makes me angry to hear about the
countless obstacles the formerly incarcerated face when it comes to
reintegrating into society. As you put it, the debt to society has been paid.
Someone who makes a mistake when they're young and stupid -- I know I made my
share -- shouldn't be prevented from ever being able to have a good, normal
life.

~~~
anonytrary
It is unfortunate that, although sentenced with finite punishments, ex-cons
continue to be punished (i.e. judged, discriminated against) well after their
sentence is over.

That said, I can also understand why companies avoid ex-cons. Companies make
decisions based on statistics. A company will, ceterus paribus, always choose
the candidate who has no criminal history because that candidate is less
likely to commit a crime and hurt the company.

~~~
Bostonian
Allow companies to pay felons less for the same job, at least for some finite
period of time, to compensate for that risk. Otherwise, as you say, it makes
sense for them to hire people without a criminal record, other things being
equal.

~~~
newsreader
The truth of the matter is that us felons do work for less – at least I did –
mostly because we have no choice. We are also less likely to be promoted.
Three times I had job offers withdrawn because of my criminal past. Having
much more to lose than someone without a criminal record I never considered
doing anything illegal, or anything that would cast a shadow of doubt to my
integrity. “Once a criminal always a criminal” is just not true.
Unfortunately, too many people subscribe to the false cliché.

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Caleb_Smith
I have been teaching a Python course at my local jail M-F for over a year now,
and something we have struggled with is finding potential internships or
general employment for our students when they are released. We typically
recommend our students to enter the local community college system, but we
also have some students that are utterly brilliant and could succeed without a
formal education.

Does anyone have any insight for how we should approach companies on their
behalf? Is it more beneficial to teach web development (it seems like this is
an easier way to break into the industry)?

I am also interested in hearing any opinions on how we should approach
teaching in the setting where there is no internet access and the typical
mathematics level is algebra.

~~~
WalterBright
Contributing to significant open source projects has been a path to success
for many people I know.

~~~
labster
I've never been incarcerated, but the open source path worked for me. But on
the other hand, my family is well off enough that I could afford a year
writing code for free. I'd imagine that most people getting out of prison need
to earn a living right away.

~~~
soulofmischief
Ok, so a company which facilitates open source contributions by prisoners,
possibly giving them greater leverage in their parole hearings as well as
post-incarceration career prospects? Does that sound like something worth
doing to anyone here?

------
kkwak
Programming generally provides people with a lot of power. Either in access to
data or obviously code. In that, there is a lot of trust requested and given.
I know lots of enterprises add a lot of "scans" and "checks" and limit things
to much complaints to remove the "we trust you" from the equation, but still
you can't scan for everything.

The open question is how much trust do you want to give? Of course, 2nd, 3rd,
4th chances are awesome and all - but in reality; as a company with lots to
lose. 1\. reputationally 2\. financially

~~~
livueta
I feel like if any one person can seriously subvert something, you've already
lost. Maybe that's just my perspective from working at international enormous
tech corp X, but we've already basically got that problem in the form of
employees hailing from repressive states (yeah, Australia, that's you now too)
where everything needs cross-signing anyway.

All in all, I'd probably be more concerned about foreign nationals open to
various forms of coercion than I would felons - in the general case, anyway.
Of course, there are certain environments where more assurance is needed and
not employing from either category is reasonable, and the type of criminal
background also matters. For instance, someone from a bad neighborhood who got
swept up in gang activity like the guy in the article is probably a lot less
likely to try to fuck you over than a serious convicted blackhat/fraudster.

It's also possible to, as in the article, explicitly limit their roles to
those that don't touch customer data or sensitive product code, where it'd be
significantly more sufficient to parlay access into a quick payout. One ironic
thing is that's frequently the exact opposite of how it works in practice:
think of all the crooked telco CS reps who've been doing SIM swaps recently.
Those roles aren't exactly exclusive positions, and I'd argue they're a good
example of why paying people crap combined with poor vetting and lots of
access is a bad idea.

~~~
A4ET8a8uTh0
I agree. Proper controls are half the battle. Naturally, those tend to be
ignored when things get difficult..

~~~
jacquesm
Based on my sample of well over a hundred companies proper controls are _very_
rare.

------
kzzzznot
A company in the UK that also has an ex-offender (edit: apparently prisoners
still serving their sentences are given an opportunity to learn the trade)
hiring/apprenticeship program is Timpson, a locksmiths

[https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/apr/06/the-
support...](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/apr/06/the-support-
never-stops-says-prisoner-who-works-at-timpsons)

------
danso
> * Drew McGahey, the engineering manager at Slack for all three apprentices,
> was initially struck by their ability to solve what he called “blank-canvas
> problems”—those that don’t have prescribed solutions. “Thinking back to
> their experience, it makes a lot of sense,” he said. “They all learned how
> to code in an environment where they didn’t have access to the internet.
> They’ve got drive.”*

Anyone familiar with contemporary interviews have insight/examples on what
“blank-canvas” problems are?

~~~
gaogao
Open-ended design/architecture problems.

For backend, a classic one is how do you design a basic twitter clone that can
handle a tweet by a popular person going to their millions of followers.

------
theshadowknows
I understand that some organizations have pretty strict requirements, some
government mandated, regarding a criminal background. But most do not. And it
gets on my nerves that the tech industry, one who has many heroes that were
themselves close to or outright criminals, has been so slow getting on this
train. I think that’s sort of a symptom of the broification of the industry
and I’m not proud of it.

------
RickJWagner
Good for Slack, and good for the new coders.

My 30 years in the industry gives me a gut hunch anyone can be a successful
coder. I hope these folks prove it.

------
TulliusCicero
> We need to applaud companies like Slack, but know that the nitty-gritty of
> human services—housing, health care, social support—which lots of nonprofits
> and public institutions are working on, the private sector has largely
> turned away from.”

I mean, yeah? Those things sound like they’re precisely the kind of stuff
that’s the domain of non-profits and the government. Why would we expect Slack
or other tech companies to be helping random people with housing or social
support?

The private sector does help here, indirectly, with taxes that go to support
such programs. And it’s the government that sets the tax rate and decides
where revenue goes, not the private sector.

You can blame the government, or the people who voted them in, but blaming
Slack and co. is silly. It’s not their job, and it shouldn’t be: you don’t
want the institutions with profit motive to be the ones handling charitable
works. That’s part of the whole reason we have a government.

~~~
DaiPlusPlus
Government is to govern. Government in most countries is driven by democratic
mandates. Democratic mandates are set by influencers. The US’ key influencers
are largely regressive and dishonest - and convince people to either not vote
- or to vote against their personal best interests[1].

The US government does not currently have a democratic mandate to operate as
the social welfare state. Consequently hundreds of thousands - if not millions
- of people are immorally (by my own standards) disadvantaged and with no
means or _realistic_ opportunity to better themselves.

So if a private company (or shareholders-forbid: a publicly traded company)’s
leadership feels a moral obligation to help those left behind by the state -
more power to them.

Until the US truly embraces the “for the people” part of the “by the people,
of the people, for the people” part of their unofficial motto it really is up
to private entities to make-up the difference.

[1] UPDATE: To clarify - I don't mean that I somehow know what's in someone
else's best interests - because I don't - nor their exact reasons for voting
for a particular party or candidate - but I mean that it's still possible to
_objectively_ say that many people vote for ideological or sentimental reasons
that appeal to them (which is part of democracy!) with - or without - having
done (for example) a spreadsheet comparisons of how each candidate's manifesto
politics would affect their cost of living, quality of living, economic
expectations, and so on. I can respect someone voting against their interests
for ideological or moral reasons - provided it's done with informed consent.
I'm not convinced that most- or even a plurality - of GOP voters in recent US
elections sat down and made a spreadsheet and said "yup - I'm okay with rising
the cost of my individual health insurance provided it means I have the choice
to refuse healthcare coverage" (and that is not a misrepresentation of the ACA
and its opponents' stated positions).

So by all means - vote against your own interests - provided you do it with
informed consent - otherwise you _really_ are voting against your own
interests.

~~~
jtbayly
> convince people to either not vote - or to vote against their personal best
> interests.

I’ve seen this on HN several times, and it always cracks me up. The
condescension isn't dripping. It’s running in torrents.

You think the reason they won’t vote the way you want is because they don’t
know what’s good for themselves. You might want to consider an alternate: they
don’t want someone like you deciding what’s good for them and forcing it down
their throats.

~~~
lizardking
The American political left would gain immensely and lose exactly nothing by
being less condescending. The first line of argument they should abandon is
telling people they are voting against their own interests. It’s remarkably
insulting, and arrogantly presupposes you know know better what another
person’s interests are.

~~~
harimau777
I'm not sure that a better solution is possible in America's current political
climate. As I see it there are basically three approaches that a progressive
could take in a policy debate:

\- Persuasion: I think that you are mistaken as to what is in your best
interest, here's why my approach would benefit you more.

\- Negotiation: Here's how we can work together to find a solution that meets
both of our interests.

\- Zero Sum: I recognize that this isn't in your best interest but I don't
care because its in my interest.

Due to the power of Fox News and the Republican party's current willingness to
ignore facts, I don't think persuasion is possible.

Similarly, the strategy that Fox News and the Republican party have taken of
promoting polarization, demonizing the other side, using straw-man arguments,
etc.[1] Makes it impossible to have the kind of nuanced debate and compromise
that would be necessary for a negotiated solution.

Therefore, it seems like all that is left is a zero sum solution. If the other
side won't listen or negotiate then the only option remaining is to implement
our policies whether they like them or not.

I'm not saying that's an ideal situation, but it seems to me that its the
reality that we find ourselves in.

[1] To be fair, I think that progressives do this to a worrying extent as
well. However, I single out the Republican party due to the degree to which
they have focused on this strategy and because the fact that many Republicans
get all of their news from Fox makes the strategy almost unassailable.

~~~
lizardking
You don’t need to convince republicans, you need to convince moderates who can
be persuaded to vote one way or the other in a given election. In the context
of a general election, we’re talking about thousands of people in a handful of
states. I’m struggling with how the idea of “condescension isn’t persuasive”
is finding so much friction here.

~~~
harimau777
The issue that I see is that due to the electoral college and gerrymandering,
it can be difficult to win even if you can convince moderates.

The other issue is that many of the issues that progressives are concerned
about (e.g. climate change, inequality, gun control) require action by society
as a whole. Ideally we would negotiate and find policies that address the
priorities of both progressives and conservatives. However, that doesn't
currently seem to be possible.

~~~
EricE
> The issue that I see is that due to the electoral college

Please read the federalist papers.

~~~
harimau777
Care to elaborate?

------
jstewartmobile
How would, " _What happens after prisoners become accountants / lawyers /
bankers..._" sound? To me, it says that trust in our profession is
interchangeable with that of trained felons.

I'd rather not have technically proficient felons near passwords, credit card
#s, and other personal information.

Edit:

I hate to sound like a Calvinist here, but you have to ask yourself how much a
change in behavior is due to "rehabilitation", and how much of it is purely
situational.

From what I've seen, they're model employees, until the setback--be it
divorce, drugs, financial hardship, stress, etc. Then there is the backslide.

And you don't have to take my word for it. Recidivism rates are very very
high.

~~~
sokoloff
The specific felony matters a lot to me. Someone busted with a gram of
marijuana or a bong in Arizona can pick up a felony conviction for it. Someone
with a previous embezzlement charge is a different story (even if the
embezzlement conviction was only a misdemeanor).

~~~
jstewartmobile
I'd also disregard a pot bust.

This Aguirre guy in the article was at least an accessory to a shooting--even
though they charged him with much more than that... not the kind of person I
want near confidential information.

~~~
sokoloff
I did _different /lesser_ dumb stuff when I was 17. If my friends were into
"street life" instead of cars, computer games, and D&D, I can see a scenario
where I'd be along for the ride in one of their/our exploits.

Peer pressure and "going along without thinking through the consequences" in a
group of your friends at that age is a real thing and I don't think is
strongly predictive of adult trustworthiness. (I generally tend towards the
"law and order" side of things.)

------
Braggadocious
I love how inmates get a better education and more support from tech companies
than the adults who live in the bay area. The bay area has the worst income
inequality of anywhere in any developed country. Bootcamps are a scam and cost
tens of thousands of dollars and yet inmates, people convicted of severe
crimes, are treated to free education. From a business standpoint this makes
more sense because inmates have no bargaining power and can flood the coding
labor pool, thus lowering wages for businesses. How is a boot camp graduate
supposed to compete with modern-day slaves?

By the way the W.K. Kellogg Foundation is a eugenics group. What are they
doing here? This program is so fishy.

~~~
bdcravens
I'm a bit unclear on your perspective here. Are you saying teaching inmates is
wrong because they've apparently lost their chance at success in life because
of their "severe crimes"?

Regardless of that perspective, here's a truth: most inmates will be released
at some point. As a matter of fact, alot of the inequality you reference is a
result of those with criminal backgrounds and the socioeconomic conditions
that got them those backgrounds. We have a rich set of statistics about what
happens to people in that situation: desperation -> crime -> prison -> repeat.
Personally I don't like that world. I want to feel safe in my world, and
anything we can do to short-circuit that recidivism cycle makes us all safer.

The "but our jobs! but our pay!" refrain is a common one, but our industry has
WAY too many job openings for this to be a legit worry (the very presence of
the h1b visa proves this). As for salary, as those jobs get filled, whether by
bootcamp grads, or journeymen, or trained individuals with a criminal record -
it will push income down for some. Some incomes are a product of scarcity, and
you only need to look at a supply/demand curve to know what will happen to
prices. In the late 90s, you'd spend tens of thousands of dollars to get a
basic website. Now you can get one for a few hundred.

~~~
Braggadocious
The entire point of prison is to remove them from society. Why are we spending
more resources on prisoners than people who've never commited a crime?

~~~
tasty_freeze
> The entire point of prison is to remove them from society.

That is the immediate effect, for sure. But that isn't the issue.

Unless someone is convicted for life without parole, or a death penalty, then
they likely will be released into the general population at some point.

Do you want them to have skills that might allow them to support themselves,
or do you think a near term investment in education might be cheaper for
society and more humane than releasing them with a situation where they have
fewer opportunities to make a living?

------
ShorsHammer
> Issues that absolutely nobody thinks much of outside of the country that
> imprisons more people per capita than Xinjiang

~~~
dang
Would you please stop posting flamebait here? We've already had to ask you
this.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
purple_ducks
I'm all for the positivity but really??

> Access to an elite organization

In what way is Slack elite?

These writers need to tone done their hyperbole.

~~~
jayparth
In what way is Slack not elite? Slack is within the top 10% of companies in
the Bay Area by pretty much any metric you choose to rank companies by. By
almost any measure, that's elite.

Is Berkeley not an elite school, because it's less prestigious than Stanford?

~~~
pkaye
> Slack is within the top 10% of companies in the Bay Area by pretty much any
> metric you choose to rank companies by.

What about profitability?

------
bipolar_lisper
I mean at the end of the day this is just a way to get cheap labor.

~~~
qes
> cheap labor

I'm an ex-con developer. To be fair, my dev roots go back to childhood. I make
around a quarter million a year in a mid-range cost of living city in the mid-
west US.

~~~
selimthegrim
What industry do you work in?

~~~
qes
Digital signage

