
When we say “Everest is crowded,” this is what we mean - teh_klev
https://www.outsideonline.com/2397164/everest-summit-traffic-jam
======
dmckeon
Opportunity for a lottery system: pay some significant fee, put in a few weeks
hauling trash down from high camps to earn a 10 to 15% chance at trying to
summit during the next season. Unlucky entrants are welcome to pay fee and
cleanup to try again another year, and the mountain ends up cleaner.

~~~
philtar
Very close to 0 people would do that.

You have to pay money, then become a janitor just for a chance.

~~~
mpwoz
Isn't that the point of such a system, to reduce traffic and still allow
dedicated climbers to summit?

------
OskarS
I feel like, at this point, climbing Everest is starting to become morally
questionable. There has been much reporting that Everest is starting to have a
serious trash problem, as well as having many dead bodies strewn all over the
path to the top. Any climber, even the most ethical and concientious, is just
going to make these problems worse, as well as making it less safe because of
crowding situations like this.

If you're thinking of climbing Everest: just don't. Climb some other mountain.
There are lots of them. Let's leave this one be.

~~~
Fricken
I don't see what's unethical about it. The only thing you're ruining by going
to Everest is the experience of others going up Everest. Locals don't live up
there. There's do delicate ecosystem to trample. It's just rock, ice, garbage
and a lineup.

~~~
feintruled
That's a very interesting viewpoint on the matter. Previously I had just
nodded along with the "Everest getting spoiled" stories, but you have made me
think a little deeper, so thanks!

I wonder if a lot of these appeals for people to stop climbing Everest are
from climbers who want everyone ELSE to stop climbing Everest.

~~~
myself248
I've never had any desire to climb Everest. Got my sights set on Olympus
Mons...

------
Johnny555
It's starting to look a lot like Half Dome:

[http://www.sierradescents.com/hiking/half-
dome/cables-7.html](http://www.sierradescents.com/hiking/half-
dome/cables-7.html)

~~~
threatofrain
Natural places don't seem like a scalable form of entertainment.

~~~
dantillberg
Nature tourism needs to be scaled _horizontally_. There are plenty of
beautiful places to go, just not everyone can go to the same few places.

~~~
titzer
> Nature tourism needs to be scaled horizontally.

Fuck no. Tourism is a vampiric money-making enterprise that absolutely ruins
that which it attempts to make accessible.

~~~
eigenstuff
I'm gonna have to disagree, I live in East Tennessee and Dolly Parton opening
Dollywood right outside Great Smoky Mountain National Park created a booming
tourism economy here when we used to be one of the poorest places of the
country. And now Big Moonshine, who got big on a lot of those tourism dollars
in the past decade or so, is turning around and dumping money into
revitalizing lots of East TN cities that used to be total dumps (who knew
Johnson City could be so cute?!), as well as pouring tons of money into
boosting Knoxville's already strong arts and crafts scene. Tourism has
absolutely been East Tennessee's salvation. All you gotta do to see that is
cross the border into eastern Kentucky, left behind and still one of the
poorest parts of this country.

Sure, tourism ruins a lot of shit, but tourist dollars have improved the
quality of life for millions and millions of people all over the world.

~~~
titzer
Sure, some of the money from tourism helps local economies, if there are
already local economies that can provide, e.g. food and hotels and such. But
in Third World countries, which wasn't clear from my OP, tourism has
annihilated people's way of life and thrown millions of people off their
native lands--in particular in island countries where beachfront property
brings in tons of rich westerners who end up creating an over-economy where
the vast majority of money stays in an upper class. Sure, there are middle-
class jobs then available, like cleaning toilets and stocking hotel rooms. But
fisherman, mom-and-pop shops, farmers, all of them, kicked out and their lands
taken over because it is just too damn profitable to turn into resorts and
such. Sad.

------
Waterluvian
Everest is so fascinating because it makes the simplest things so hard and
dangerous. A man literally died waiting in line too long.

~~~
paulcole
Guy was British IIRC.

~~~
skilled
Fuck me that's funny. Well done.

------
diveanon
I personally experience this problem on a daily basis.

I am a professional diving guide and instructor working at on a small island
in the South China Sea.

For me it is very difficult to balance the sense of pride and joy of creating
new environmentalists every day who learn to value our precious and rare
remaining reefs against the anger and revulsion I feel towards the selfie
crowd that stomps all over coral and harasses wildlife on a daily basis.

Tourism is a necessary evil in many places, without it my island would be in
poverty and its people living off the reef for daily nutrition instead of
protecting it.

I don't know what the long term solution is, but there are definitely days
where I wonder if I am doing the right thing.

------
roymurdock
Here's a good blog with a breakdown of costs to climb Everest and how they're
evolving: [http://www.alanarnette.com/blog/2018/12/17/how-much-does-
it-...](http://www.alanarnette.com/blog/2018/12/17/how-much-does-it-cost-to-
climb-mount-everest-2019-edition/)

Sounds like 2019 is the year of China exerting full control over the Tibet-
side approach:

"In my mind climbing in Tibet has just become more expensive and more
controlled. While the intent of some of this is good (trash, centralized
rescue) others are onerous in nature and can result in unexpected expenses.
Climbing Everest from the North or Tibet side was historically seen as
cheaper, wilder, freer and more independent than the Nepal side. Well, that
ship has sailed. If you want a more independent 8,000-meter climb, Everest is
no longer on the table. Take a look at Makalu or Dhaulagiri."

------
utoku
This immediately reminded me of Yvon Chouinard quote from 180 Degrees South
documentary:

"Taking a trip for six months, you get in the rhythm of it. It feels like you
can go on forever doing that. Climbing Everest is the ultimate and the
opposite of that. Because you get these high-powered plastic surgeons and
CEOs, and you know, they pay $80,000 and have Sherpas put the ladders in place
and 8,000 feet of fixed ropes and you get to the camp and you don’t even have
to lay out your sleeping bag. It’s already laid out with a chocolate mint on
the top. The whole purpose of planning something like Everest is to effect
some sort of spiritual and physical gain and if you compromise the process,
you’re an asshole when you start out and you’re an asshole when you get back.”

~~~
wccrawford
It's clearly not the "whole purpose" for some people. For some people it's
just an incredible experience, and not some spiritual journey.

------
gfody
not just everest is crowded [http://www.thisworldrocks.com/17-bucket-list-
items-ruined-by...](http://www.thisworldrocks.com/17-bucket-list-items-ruined-
by-real-images/)

~~~
dagw
Admittedly only been four of those places, but they where nowhere near as bad
as those pictures show. Those photos all seem to of the most crowded space the
photographer could find in the middle of peak tourist season.

------
kzrdude
It's like the opposite of the "long tail" — I don't know what to call it.

The fact that the top few attractions, events etc attract a disproportionate
amount of people.

If you want to escape into nature for example - don't fly across the country
or world to go to the #1 prominent or obvious place. Get out anywhere, close
to you or new to you, maybe new to most people.

~~~
treerock
It a power law[1]. The 'long tail' is part of the power law graph.

[1]:[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_law)

------
Ayesh
Climbing the seven summits is one of my life goals, and I'm doing a lot of
research on Everest. I have been to the Everest base camp and Annapurna base
camp.

Unfortunate mont Everest is no longer the great achievement it once was. The
risk is still there (the riskiest being you running out of oxygen), but don't
expect the thrill of wandering a mountain and using your survival skills
there.

There was a story a few weeks back that a Sherpa gave his own supply of oxygen
to save a Malaysian tourist. There are many stories that are borderline human
abuse for Sherpas.

For a great hike, I can't recommend PCT and AT trails in North America enough!
For Europe, you have GR-20 (one of the best experiences in my while life),
Pyrenees, etc. They won't get you to great elevations but they all out
yourself with breathtaking views, challenges, and getting to know some amazing
people.

For the toughest hikers out there, Puncak Jaya (East of Indonesian
archipelago) puts your everything up for the riskiest yet most rewarding
challenge.

------
josh_fyi
Nepal should sign a Swiss concessionaire to turn Base Camp into a tourist
destination and build a cable car as high as possible. Charge a lot.

Limit the number of climbing licenses to what the mountain can bear and charge
the market-clearing price.

Use part of the profit to keep Everest clean.

Also offer a $1.5 million copter ride to the summit.

Nepal is poor and needs the money, and this would be better for the
environment.

~~~
matthewking
Thought your comment on helicopter rides to the summit of Everest was
interesting so I looked it up, only 1 person has ever achieved it (twice) and
set the world record in doing so:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didier_Delsalle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didier_Delsalle)

------
_bxg1
Gotta get those Instagram photos.

~~~
DonHopkins
Everest should host Freezing Man and Iyce Festival.

------
chiefalchemist
Humans - Racing to the top, while we drift mindlessly off to the bottom. This
is the photo that should appear on the gravestone of the species.

------
anonair
TLDR: > Because of the intense jet stream that hovers near Everest’s
29,029-foot summit for much of the year, there are only a few weather windows,
often two or three days in late May, when it's optimal for climbers to make a
push for the top—forcing many expeditions to all go for it at the same time.

------
skilled
I guess this makes me fortunate. I did the EBC trek in late 2015 and it was
such a wonderful experience. Hardly anyone doing at the time because of the
Earthquake that happened earlier in the year. Can't imagine doing it when
there are thousands of people in the area leading up to the slopes.

------
athenot
The article does point out that this is exacerbated by the very small windows
of opportunity when it comes to weather. Meaning there are only a few days of
the year where conditions become acceptable and then everyone rushes on those
days. The rest of the time, there is nobody on the moutain.

Would that taint the experience if I were a climber? Probably so. But as far
as the mountain is concerned these days are few and far apart.

I wonder though: since there is a lot of tourism for people who just have
money and are not strong-skilled alpinists, are there other ascents attempted
when conditions are only semi-favorable and where there are only a few brave
souls on the mountain due to the difficulty?

------
hwj
The image is only visible with JavaScript enabled. Here's the URL:

[https://www.outsideonline.com/sites/default/files/styles/wid...](https://www.outsideonline.com/sites/default/files/styles/width_1200/public/2019/05/23/summit-
crowding_h.jpg)

------
ak39
Yikes. If I had to undertake such a project, it would undoubtedly be mostly
about leaving all others behind. To be secluded. Alone on a mountain. _The_
mountain. I can't imagine having to bear this sort of human traffic after all
of the struggles to get there. Hipster style misanthropy is hard to pull off
these days it would seem.

~~~
pjc50
You can go alone(ish) to the world's _second_ highest mountain, which is
nowhere near as hip. The inherent part of getting away from everyone else is
to not choose the same things as they do.

~~~
ak39
Precisely. I have always been at odds with my wife's enthusiasm for visiting
places (travelling in the modern context) where hotels, tour-packages and
worn-out guides define your experience. Unfortunately I can't suggest an
alternative to her besides the lemmings path. (The top post on this thread is
100% my sentiment about holiday travelling. Hell is indeed "others".)

And by second highest, you mean K2? Agreed. But really these projects are out
of my physical, mental and financial reaches currently.

~~~
pas
Hm. Why don't you put together a travel plan? Or why don't you encourage her
to do so herself? There are countless blogs recommending very specific
itineraries (when to go, which place to sleep at, how much time to see what),
yet if you book it yourself, buy the tickets yourself, you won't have that you
are the product feeling.

*

Mountains. There are beautiful and amazing mountains, ridges, peaks, climbs
all over the world, not just in the Himalayas. (For example:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orla_Per%C4%87](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orla_Per%C4%87)
\-- affordable as fuck compared to anything else basically, and still pretty
challenging, yet no need for sherpas, base camps and O2 bottles.)

------
netwanderer3
It's difficult enough to coordinate a group of 200 people under normal
circumstances, being able to climb to the top of Everest by every single
person is nothing short of a miracle!

------
true_tuna
It should be obvious now that climbing Everest is a vanity project.

------
TomK32
And it's not even the biggest mountain from base to top on this planet.

~~~
Majestic121
Oh ? Which one is ?

~~~
spraak
Possibly Kilauea on Big Island. From sea floor to peak

------
RickJWagner
A consequence of the time we live in. Some people have more money for such
activities, so the activities become more crowded.

This will self-correct after a while. During the next global downturn the
lines will disappear.

------
dna_polymerase
Currently on mobile so I can’t link it myself, but there is a Joe Rogan
episode about this very much worth listening. People aside, there is so mich
waste up there as well as corpses.

------
MagicPropmaker
Basically this guy is saying "I went to Everest! Don't ruin my accomplishment
by you going, too!"

------
Hoasi
This is way beyond ridiculous.

------
breakyerself
I was a nope before, but now it's a double nope. Asphyxiating or freezing to
death because of a crush of people pretending to be Edmund Hillary seems like
a big waste to me.

~~~
freewilly1040
Why disparage the climbers? Getting to the top of Everest is an impressive
accomplishment.

~~~
jdietrich
_> Getting to the top of Everest is an impressive accomplishment._

It's not technically difficult, it doesn't require a particularly high level
of fitness, it's just pointlessly dangerous. A substantial proportion of
Everest climbers have negligible mountaineering experience and no real
interest in the sport, they just want the bragging rights. You pay your money
to an expedition company, you follow their instructions and they get you up to
the death zone; whether you make it back to base camp is in the lap of the
gods. About one in twenty people don't make it back. The only people I feel
sorry for are the Sherpas.

 _This place is not a place of honor... no highly esteemed deed is
commemorated here... nothing valued is here._

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_died_climbi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_died_climbing_Mount_Everest)

~~~
yur50
I am from Nepal. Our sherpas are making good money from it, no need to feel
sorry for them. And it is better to keep Everest as a wasp trap. There are
plenty of other mountains which are empty in the Himalayas to climb. If people
want to pay to die on Everest, I do not care. It is just one mountain. I am
happy to let them have bragging rights in return for contribution in our
economy.

~~~
ak39
Great response. The fact the sherpas are indeed making money (better than
nothing) is good news. I believe they ought to be making even more insane
amounts of money though.

I wonder if the overcrowding has now increased the danger factor appeal?

------
jurassic
I visited Spain last year after studying the language seriously for several
years; overtourism spoiled many of my experiences. I literally fled a
cathedral in Granada because the crush of bodies was giving me a
claustrophobic panic attack. From my perspective as an independent traveler,
the guided busloads are the most obnoxious because they do everything in
unison. If you also want to do the thing the 250 bus-people are all doing
right now, forget about it.

Sad to see the same thing happening on Everest. If I saw that line, I would
immediately turn around.

When I was younger I thought travel was important to me. But after doing it a
bit, I've realized travel isn't what I thought it was. It isn't that exciting
and it's not some kind of achievement, other than the achievement of having
enough disposable income to make it happen. The people who create things worth
visiting--whether that's art or food or buildings or whatever--are people
staying where they are and investing in their communities. I want to be one of
those people, not the rich jerks taking up space and contributing nothing to
the scene.

~~~
TelmoMenezes
In my experience, it is incredibly mind-expanding to live for some time in
another country (or countries). Really live there, have a job, rent a house,
make friends, etc. It is a process of detribalization, that can help you
understand better who you are, what part of you is just an artifact of the
culture you were brought up in, which parts you like to keep and which parts
you would like to revise.

Not less importantly, it gives you empathy for "the other". It makes you
understand how similar we all are at the core and, paradoxically, how diverse
our behaviors and viewpoints can be. And it makes it harder and harder to
believe that you, specifically, were born in the place with the correct
behaviors and the correct viewpoint.

Tourism is a farce. I guess it gives you the social status points of going
through a challenge, without actually facing any difficulties or learning
anything. You can have your photo in front of the Eiffel Tower, or that cute
Buddhist Temple, or whatever. Maybe use that super expensive camera you bought
as a toy (god forbid you use it to do something different, something that
hasn't been done before by one million people just that week).

Tourism itself is a paradox: its gaze destroys the very thing it wants to look
at. The Ramones could no longer rent an apartment in Brooklyn. Struggling
painters could most certainly not afford to live in Paris these days,
Montmartre or otherwise. Punk Rock in London? Only if you have a banking job
on the side... The old ladies who sang fado from windows in old Lisbon
neighborhoods had to move to the suburbs, because Madonna arrived with her
entourage and every rich kid wants a piece of that "genuine" action on their
Instragram.

Be a traveler, not a tourist!

~~~
dagw
_Be a traveler, not a tourist!_

When you do it it's "tourism" when I do it it's "travelling". When you're
visiting a place for a shorter period of time primarily for leisure, you're a
tourist. Sure you can tourist in more or less intrusive ways, but just accept
the label and move on.

 _the Ramones could no longer rent an apartment in Brooklyn. Struggling
painters could most certainly not afford to live in Paris these days..._

None of which has anything to do with tourism.

~~~
tim333
It's more down to what you do than if it's me or them. Doing stuff the locals
do is not tourist. Queueing to take photos of the changing of the guard or
that kind of stuff is touristy.

~~~
notahacker
It has to be said that visiting tourist attractions often has much to
recommend it over "doing stuff the locals do", which often entails pretty
mundane experiences like going to the mall and eating at McDonalds...

~~~
zerocool4
Well, interesting note, because on the last trip in Sri Lanks I was in just
another Buddhist temple, and I remember almost nothing of it. But then I was
eating in a McDonalds nearby, and it was a really interesting. They had
totally different menu and tastes, chairs and tables, peoples and ads, also no
WC so I found it only at horse race track nearby. Not a mundane experience in
any way. Churches, temples and mountain views are all the same after a while.
Small details in everyday people's life always different and makes yourself to
take a fresh look at your daily life.

------
oh_sigh
I don't want to be this person - but who gives a hoot whether Everest is dirty
or not? It is probably in the 1% of the hardest places to get to on Earth
list, and the only people that go are the rich or sherpas who are employed by
the rich. I think China/Nepal should make sure some of that $50k+ permit fee
is going towards cleanup for long term profit maximization, but I don't see
why any otherwise normal person should care about it.

~~~
titzer
Repeat this comment 1000x to see how breathtakingly short-sighted it is.

~~~
whamlastxmas
Everest could be a literal landfill and I really wouldn't care. It's not some
holy ground or a place people live

~~~
titzer
Shit on the planet and it will shit right back on all of us.

------
Timpy
xkcd's comic from two days ago [1] is about the effects of high altitude. I
ended up curious about populations at different altitudes and began reading
about cultures with different genetic adaptations, especially Sherpas. It
seems that freshly published material on the topic is popping up everywhere
now. Youtube recommended a video to me titled "How People Have Evolved to Live
in the Clouds" [2] which was published yesterday.

Is this a coincidence? Are all of these creators subconsciously inspired by
the same source? Maybe there's a new TV show about Everest that I'm not aware
of that's influencing interest in the topic. Maybe Everest related articles
are frequently on HN and I am just now paying attention to it. Am I being
played by the algorithm gods?

Baader–Meinhof effect is a convincing illusion.

[1]:[https://xkcd.com/2153/](https://xkcd.com/2153/) [2]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elOn5ZYg5fc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elOn5ZYg5fc)

------
human20190310
They should charge $2,000,000 for a license to climb.

~~~
celticninja
Yes, only the super rich should be able to climb it, unlike how they only let
the quite rich climb it now.

~~~
keymone
Summiting Everest is a scarce resource, why shouldn’t it be expensive? Limit
number of licenses active during each week and auction them off to highest
bidder, nothing wrong with that.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
Or implement some kind of lottery system?

~~~
keymone
Lottery systems where price of participation is low are easily gamed.

------
rsgrafx
The first thing I thought of when I saw that photo was that Seinfeld episode
where Kramer starts swimming in the East river. idk why lulz.

