
Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China - thg
https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-moves-mac-pro-production-to-china-11561728769?mod=rsswn
======
gentran
Back in the day, my international economics professor told me corporations
will set up, and base their business out of the countries that they see as the
most stable. Because of this, it scares me when I see headlines like this,
even though it is only production. If anyone has a counterpoint to what he
said, I am very interested in hearing it

~~~
muzani
Why do you say China is unstable?

The US is talking about starting a war, had government shutdown issues
recently, and has a president that is abrasive on foreign affairs. UK is
dealing with brexit.

China may have the issue with HK recently, but to an outsider, they look more
stable. Of course, something like Japan or Australia seems better, but China
isn't a terrible choice.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Why do you say China is unstable?_

It's now a dictatorship, with a single man ruling for life. The history of
dictatorships shows, for fundamental reasons, stability in the short term and
chaos in the medium.

(The fundamental reasons include not being able to back away from bad
decisions, eliminating competent rivals, and as a result bumbling into crises
that seem to escalate themselves.)

~~~
Barrin92
>It's now a dictatorship, with a single man ruling for life.

This is a cartoon take on China. Yes, China is led by a fairly Leninist party
structure in nominal terms, but in terms of management China is relatively
decentralised. Politically but in particular fiscally regional and local
authorities manage day-to-day operations with significant leeway depending on
the region, anything else would be unfeasible in a country with 1.4 billion
people.

The bureaucratic nature of the Chinese state (which is really thousands of
years old) makes comparisons to Western strongman dictatorships impossible.
There's a reason the communist state has survived Mao, market reforms under
Deng and now Xi, and it's not because it's run by some big brother figure who
gets assassinated and then everything collapses.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _China is led by a fairly Leninist party structure in nominal terms_

China's party structure was fine and decidedly non-dictatorial. Deng was not a
dictator and neither was Hu Jintao. They did not, like Xi has, ensconce
themselves as leaders for life [1].

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/26/xi-jinping-
chi...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/26/xi-jinping-china-
presidential-limit-scrap-dictator-for-life)

~~~
Barrin92
Nothing much about the party structure has changed. Xi doesn't get any more
power than he has right now simply because of a term limit removal. Given how
opaque and complex the power distribution inside the communist party is, Xi
could have feasibly governed with a marionette in place without changing the
term limits at all, just like Putin in Russia while Medvedev was in office.

China was certainly much more dictatorial than any Western country before this
change, and it isn't much more dictatorial now. Xi's extension of time in
office isn't really related to governance as much as it is related to the
problem of succession. With significant amounts of the old guard finally
reaching retirement age, there is a fear of political instability in the
party.

~~~
addicted
Xi doesn’t have more power because of the term limits removal. But the fact
that he was able to get the term limits removed was a public display of the
power he has accumulated.

And the way he has done that is by imprisoning and killing competitors to his
power. The fact that he could even contemplate bringing the term limit up
indicated that he was certain at that point that there was no one to compete
with him within the party, who would protest the term limits removal.

------
TallGuyShort
For years I've been very happy, productive, and at times stubbornly loyal on
my Linux / Lenovo setup, but it seems that so many of my colleagues have
embraced Mac that it's gotten harder and harder to not be on the bandwagon. I
recently hit the point of deciding maybe I should just have a Mac, but I seem
to have done so after Macbook Pros have passed their peak. I don't follow
consumer hardware trends much, so what does HN think - is it now too late to
be getting on the Macbook Pro Kool-Aid? Will other platforms make a comeback
soon?

edit: I'm aware this article is about the desktops, but it seems to be part of
a trend that Apple isn't that focused on the workstation-use-case anymore, and
is pushing ever more into mobile.

~~~
lioeters
> Macbook Pros have passed their peak

As someone who has used a number of Mac(book)s for years, I agree with this
general (or a vocal minority's) consensus.

It's a beautiful machine: great OS, hardware integration is (mostly) top
notch, and a lot of pro-grade hard/software for multimedia production are only
available on the Mac.

And yet, the 2013 Macbook Pro (maxed out beyond recommended specs) is the last
Apple-built computer I will buy. I recently built myself a PC that dual-boots
macOS and Linux, and am looking at Thinkpads for my next laptop.

I don't know if "the tide" is moving to Linux, but at least I am, and being
the most computer-savvy person in my social circle, I'm recommending everyone
I know to _not_ buy a Mac/book. It's probably the best computer in the market
for that form factor, but the company has given the users too many reasons to
move away.

~~~
TallGuyShort
Totally tangential rant here, but when I've had family or close friends (the
kind who would come to me for free tech support and who I would generally
indulge) ask me for recommendations, I've told them that I don't know Mac
products well enough to recommend / recommend against them, but that if they
get iOS or Macs, I simply won't be in a position to help them. Almost
invariably they get the Apple device, need help, can't get it from Apple, and
come back to me. Can't stand it. And if I ever have a glitch they'll say, "but
Apple stuff just works..."

~~~
rbritton
The only difference when they do choose the products you recommend (in my case
it is Apple), they come to you first before even trying the manufacturer's
support.

~~~
TallGuyShort
I don't mind that - I can almost always fix an Android or PC glitch myself.
It's the look of disbelief when I tell them I have no idea if their iPad is
supposed to do that or not, followed by, "but you're a techy person".

------
jshowa3
I honestly think the China IP rip off is overblown, and this is coming from
someone who works there often. Also, if open source software has demonstrated,
sequestering IP behind patents is a hindrance to society.

And your critique about civil rights abuses could equally be leveled against
the US itself. After all, we put several immigrant children in concentration
camps on the daily because they just want to move to the US.

It could be argued that we've already given up so much manufacturing to
foreign entities that trying to get it back is just too costly for most
businesses to handle.

~~~
wahern
> I honestly think the China IP rip off is overblown, and this is coming from
> someone who works there often.

You wouldn't be the first person with _real_ experience working in China
making that point. From everything I've read the IP issue is way overblown.
There are some high-profile cases but in general it seems to be used as a
convenient cudgel for other purposes.

AFAICT the real issue working in China is that it's a communist country,
heavily bureaucratic with byzantine and entirely unfamiliar legal systems and
business networks that almost everybody else, including to a lesser degree
other East Asian countries, find very challenging to navigate. Even corruption
works differently there. Because it's a communist country power and influence
flow in unexpected ways even when everything is above board.

The upshot is that even when criticisms about China are reasonable, they're
kinda beside the point because they're not the _principle_ reason companies
find it difficult to operate there. Even when the Chinese government wholly
cooperates with a reform measure--passes and earnestly applies a law--things
invariably go sideways for outsiders.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The weakness Of rule of law is a common criticism raised against China, which
is a huge reason foreign companies (and foreigners) have difficulties being in
China.

~~~
wahern
And yet reading sites like China Law Blog,
[https://www.chinalawblog.com/](https://www.chinalawblog.com/), I don't get
the impression that the rule of law is especially problematic, per se.

For example, AFAICT few people say that China doesn't take enforcement of
trademark protections seriously. The procedures for redress and enforcement
exist and applied fairly. But navigating the administrative state can be
confusing and cause people to trip over the technicalities. Some of the
stories I've read from the blog above detail situations where Chinese partners
or workers used the legal system against foreigners in very surprising but
arguably fair manners. Much like the U.S., if you want to protect your rights
you really need to make sure to employ vigilant lawyers who can foresee
potential problems.

The U.S. is large enough that there's been little pressure to address issues
of regulatory and procedural uniformity relative to the rest of the world
(e.g. civil law countries). China is similar in that regard. What's different
is that China's systems are almost wholly unique and far more complex, whereas
the legal systems for almost all Westernized nations, including Japan, have a
pedigree that can be traced back to Western Europe, if not ancient Rome. China
has been adopting American-style legal rules and norms for commercial law,
including common law rules about case precedent. That helps further the rule
of law and, more importantly, provides processes more familiar to foreigners,
but it also adds yet another dimension of complexity.

To use communism as an example, again, consider that American tripartite
system of government--legislative, administrative, judicial--can create
substantial complexity relative to a small, autocratic state.[1] In China the
Communist Party is another pillar of governance in addition to those other
three, multiplying complexity. And China has a federal system much like that
in America. So just because things are confusing and _seemingly_ haphazard
doesn't mean that they actually are. I mean, China has had a robust and
effective administrative state for millennia. IMO much of the perception of
China as chaotic and full of cheaters is self-serving. And to the extent it's
correct, I think it says at least as much about the limitations the central
government faces than about their lack of desire or will to do anything about
it. If we don't appreciate that than we're simply going to frustrate ourselves
with demands and expectations that are misinformed and unreasonable.

[1] For example, in the U.S. using a judicial judgment to induce a government
agency to do or abstain from something can be challenging and expensive. We
maintain especially rigid separation between the judiciary and executive for
good reasons--reasons directly related to our conception and experience of
rule of law--but that does not necessarily translate into efficiency or even
consistency.

------
partiallypro
I am not sure if this is a good move on Apple's part in the long term, both
parties, Republicans & Democrats, have shown a lot of ire for China. I don't
think this will go unpunished. But perhaps they believe that the Chinese
market is vastly more valuable than the US and are willing to eat any cost the
US may levy against it in the future.

If I were them I'd have just moved it to Vietnam or India.

~~~
ascorbic
The main reason to manufacture in China isn't cost. It's far from the
cheapest. It's supply chains. There's nowhere else that can compete.

~~~
codeisawesome
Could you please link to any good self-contained material that covers the info
on this advantage, for a layman like me? This sounds like a massive
opportunity space.

~~~
d-sc
To picture the manufacturing capabilities of the US: Image trying to bake a
cake, except all the ingredients come with a 8 week lead time and the people
with the mixer, measuring cups and ovens are all 200 miles minimum away from
each other. Then imagine 2 days before the cake is supposed to be done, the
chef asks to change one ingredient.

In China everything is one or two days away.

~~~
ascorbic
If you're in Shenzhen, you can have your parts in hours.

------
Shivetya
Well I was not going to buy one, the price jump from the previous Pro was not
something I or many expected or appreciated.

I will get on my soap box again.

Apple needs to be out of China, not moving more manufacturing to that country.
What will it take to get Apple to stand up for the rights of the oppressed in
China or are they that wrapped up in dollars they no longer see the people
component? For a country which struts around in Western countries about their
rights and privacy position their continued and increasing production in China
shows how much that stand of theirs is meaningless.

They stand for rights and privacy only when it does not interfere with their
revenue stream

~~~
rubbingalcohol
It probably explains the at least $4,000 markup between the cost of the
hardware and the final price. They've gotta pay those tariffs and pass the
losses onto consumers who don't care about spending $6,000 for an 8-core CPU,
32gb of ECC ram, an R580X and 256 SSD.

You'd have to be drinking a lot of fucking Kool Aid as any sort of creative
professional to think MacOS is worth that premium above alternative tools in
either Linux or Windows 10.

Apple deciding to move production to an economically hostile country and
shutter more American jobs only adds injury to insult.

~~~
stanmancan
In professional environments the price of a computer is so minimal it doesn’t
really matter. If someone is being paid even $100K a year then the extra
$4,000 for a computer they’ll have for probably 4 years is a rounding error.

~~~
jimmaswell
Have that attitude about your purchases for 10 years, wasting at least $4000 a
year, and you've wasted $40000. That's significant even if you do make $100k.

~~~
philliphaydon
Who buys a new computer every year? That’s just silly and a waste of money.

~~~
jimmaswell
You don't buy a new computer every year but if you carry that attitude around
with you then you're probably wasting comparable money elsewhere.

------
qubex
In the specific case of the new Mac Pro, I don’t really think there’s much IP
to “rip off”: it’s a fairly ordinary PC in an unusual case running a pro
portray OS that has been made to run on non-proprietary hardware for more than
a decadeS. There’s not much that can be ‘ripped off’ that couldn’t be inferred
from the year down of a single unit, and not much of value, honestly. They’re
almost all off-the-shelf components and those that aren’t are already
incorporated in other SKUs already produced on the mainland (such as the iMac
Pro).

------
cmpolis
I wonder how significant the cost differences are for Apple with this move,
especially since they mention previously manufacturing in the US and that many
components are sourced in the US. How high will the margins be on these
devices??

~~~
josho
Apple previously (years ago) spoke about the importance of the supply chain,
not price as the reason to mfg in China. Steve Jobs gave an example that if
you needed to change the design to use a different type of screw then you'd
have several manufacturers nearby that you could source from. That's just not
possible in the US.

~~~
ProAm
> That's just not possible in the US.

This is a chicken and egg argument. Supply and demand fixes these things.

~~~
mschuster91
> Supply and demand fixes these things.

Not necessarily. A _lot_ of know-how in many Western nations has died out over
the last decades of off-shoring, and factories have long ago closed shop.
You'd have to do a start from absolute zero and that needs more money, way way
more money, than the US can afford.

------
carapace
As I said the other day:

There are even more compelling reasons to adopt a hard line with the CCP:

"Report on forced organ harvesting in China"

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20249489](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20249489)

We're in a situation where we are confronted by our own fundamental values and
what they mean to us and what we're willing to do about it.

------
Simulacra
IIRC, did they not move Mac Pro production TO America in the not too distant
past?

~~~
ryeights
Yes, the article mentions that the old Mac Pro was produced at a plant in
Texas

------
dapids
I wonder how predicted sales of the cheese grater are going?

EDIT: I didn't even know it wasn't for sale yet, whoops, a lot of hype
though...

~~~
fouc
I would imagine the sales should be pretty successful. $6k is still in the
realm of 1 to 3 months earnings for many folks. Even I'm tempted.

~~~
cmsj
Success is obviously a relative thing.

I would suggest that any professional scenario that uses macOS for client-
driven computationally intensive tasks (rendering video being the obvious
example), the new Pro will be a no-brainer. Huge step up in maximum CPU/GPU
throughput.

------
sanguy
Apple is desperate to keep profits flowing while the iPhone and iPad stagnate
in sales performance. Services is on the rise; but not fast enough.

So they are being absolutely militant to squeeze any and all profit out of the
supply chain they can regardless of what that means.

We know countless US and EU based suppliers who have been replaced by cheaper
equivalents in this pursuit of profit. In some cases Apple has even been
complicit by helping lower cost vendors improve to displace higher cost US
based ones.

Without government trade restrictions this is a logical thing to do when under
profit pressures.

The Mac Pro decision was clearly similar. Save a couple % on a 6K machines
production costs is all that matters.

------
robotcookies
Where was it made before?

~~~
Synaesthesia
The cylindrical model was assembled in USA, the only which was.

------
bayareanative
Apple and Samsung already exploit slave labor indirectly throughout the entire
supply chain from sulphur mining, rare earth elements mining in the ocean and
final assembly. Depending on China might be a stupid move if it suddenly
decides to enact sanctions to harm the US economically... it would be a huge
hit domestically but it might be necessary for a pretext to war (if foreign
relations policies change).

------
powerapple
I am sorry that US lost some jobs. And some are making a few thousands less
than before. But the world is developing, and things are cheaper. Not only
life in developed world is getting better, developing world is seeing more
jobs. I am sorry that developed world is not winning all because of foul play
by players lagging behind and trying to catch up.

------
c-smile
Ok, forget about Macs …

Is there any factory left in US or Canada that produces plain blankets for
example? These are actually strategic goods ...

~~~
ac29
Faribault Mill makes nice (but expensive) wool and cotton blankets. I think
part of the reason they are still around is that they have (or certainly had)
a fairly large military contract.

[https://www.faribaultmill.com](https://www.faribaultmill.com)

------
throw03172019
Will that make the Mac Pro cheaper than a car?

~~~
quux
Yes, but you forgot to specify which car.

~~~
onemoresoop
And forgot to specify cheaper for whom. If it's cheaper the difference gets
gobbled up by Apple

------
droithomme
Interesting that 80% of the American production line workers were paid minimum
wage and had no benefits.

Do the workers in China make more and get benefits?

How does this align with the common claim that American manufacturing is a no-
go because labor and benefit costs are simply too high.

~~~
sdinsn
> Do the workers in China make more and get benefits?

No. Minimum wage in cities like Shanghai is 20 yuan ($2.91). They get poor
benefits. But the worst part is the lack of safety regulations that reduces
cost at the expense of worker safety.

------
scotchio
Anyone have a good resource of backdoor / spy / sketchy China computer
manufacturing things?

I always see info about the Huawei scandal for example, and I would love to
read a great write up of more specific technical details of things going on

~~~
clubm8
I suspect any modified hardware would be targeted, not every single computer.
You probably shouldn't order a computer online if this is your threat model,
and instead pay for one off the shelf.

~~~
derefr
> And instead pay for one off the shelf

If a state actor is sufficiently motivated, even in a physical purchase, your
computer will just get switched out for a bugged one at the cashier.

Common OPSEC practice re: buying hardware (or anything you don’t want your
name associated with, really), is to pay an unaffiliated proxy to buy it for
you.

~~~
gruez
>your computer will just get switched out for a bugged one at the cashier.

I doubt it. How would they swap it in time if you drove to a random Best buy,
picked out a laptop (I think they still keep them in locked cages on the show
floor), and kept eyes on it until checkout? Nevermind that they'll need
surveillance on you 24/7 and have the exact model ready to go (or be able to
plant the bug within minutes) to pull this off. It's much more feasible to
only bug delivered/ordered equipment.

~~~
sct202
It seems really implausible to pull off without making a scene with a bunch of
retail workers thinking you're trying to pull off some kind of scam/fraud.

------
zerr
Didn't the "ripping off" gave us the value brands such as OnePlus, Xiaomi, and
even Huawei at the beginning of their phone business? So I'd say it's a good
thing.

------
hapless
That didn't take very long.

------
zelos
_" More than 80% of the workers working across three assembly lines were
contract employees paid minimum wage for eight-hour workday...when their shift
ended, many walked off the job, he said—even if the lines were still
running."_

Of course they did, that's what anyone in that situation would do surely? Are
they supposed to work for _below_ minimum wage because the company can't
organise shift changeover properly?

~~~
ken
No -- well, it depends, and that's a false dichotomy.

I work until the job is done (or I'm cut) and the workplace is safe. It's the
employer's responsibility to pay me at least the legal minimum wage for hours
worked. If that means I'm going into OT because they can't organize shift
changes properly, that's their problem.

There are usually also legal or contractual requirements for breaks, so I'd be
prepared to say "I'm walking away this minute -- unless you want to pay meal
penalty?" (I've said that once or twice, and the response has always been "Go,
take an hour!") Texas doesn't seem to have any laws requiring worker breaks
(wow), and the article doesn't mention if they have a union, but Texas law
does apparently require at least a 1.5x pay rate for any hours beyond 40/wk.

Depending on their contract, either they should walk away as they do, or they
should keep working until relieved and get paid for OT. Nobody is suggesting
they should do extra _unpaid_ work.

~~~
coolsunglasses
>I work until the job is done (or I'm cut) and the workplace is safe. It's the
employer's responsibility to pay me at least the legal minimum wage for hours
worked. If that means I'm going into OT because they can't organize shift
changes properly, that's their problem.

My experience working in factories as a young man was that employers hawked
over time cards obsessively and threatened to fire you for a first or second
time offense if you went into OT.

------
a_lifters_life
This is not good.

~~~
povertyworld
The article reveals that the people working the Mac Pro assembly line in Texas
where paid the minimum wage which in Texas is currently $7.25 an hour. When
the plant closes, those guys can apply to any fast food place in Austin, and
make the same money.

~~~
lelima
So if they have 5000 people working there, 5000 people will be looking for
those "McJobs".

Many of them won't find another job, or at least not quick enough to provide
food on the table.

~~~
povertyworld
According to the article, demand for the Mac Pro tapered off years ago, and
they were down to "a skeleton crew". The original plant opening had some kind
of tax deal for "up to 500 jobs", so even at peak it was not making a huge
difference. Texas supposedly has a 3.8% unemployment rate right now, so there
is apparently a lot of work available. I like Apple, but assembling the Mac
Pro in Texas was overrated.

------
MrTonyD
Back when I worked at NeXT we created a lights-out factory in Fremont, CA and
then closed it. Steve said that we were moving it offshore to be closer to
where the parts were manufactured. At the same time, I was told by some
employees who worked on creating the automated factory that the real reason
for moving it was completely different. They told me that the goal was to sell
it to a group of Executives who could then charge the company for
manufacturing the machines and avoid US taxes by sending the money offshore as
a business expense. It was sold to a group of Executives so that they could
avoid any one Executive being technically in "control" of the offshore. I was
also told that the group of Executives included theoretical "competitors", and
they traded "favors" for shared ownership.

I can't confirm any of this - but it is consistent with other things done to
avoid taxes. (Steve was once successfully prosecuted for avoiding taxes using
an offshore. After that, he got better accountants to make sure his tax dodges
could withstand legal scrutiny.)

~~~
dang
You've posted so many of these stories over the years that we had to ask you
to stop unless you could somehow substantiate them:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15317343](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15317343)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15075098](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15075098)

That request is still in effect. I don't have any reason to doubt you, but the
stories are so grandiose and inflammatory (and similar) that we need to apply
at least a little burden of proof.

We detached this comment from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20305230](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20305230)
and marked it off-topic.

------
40acres
In the short term, moving to China is always the right move, the labor is
cheaper, the regulation is lighter, the market is gigantic and the middle
class is growing every day.

In the long term, I believe we are mortgaging our future. Not only is China
ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness
advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has
imprisoned thousands of religious minorities in re-education camps.

America's approach to China is that of an overconfident fiancee who thinks
once they're married they will change their partners ways. It rarely works
out.

~~~
riq_
> Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be
> "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness
> with a nation that has imprisoned thousands of religious minorities in re-
> education camps.

First of all: You are not wrong.

But similar things can be said about USA. USA steals a lot of stuff too. But
of course the American press won't tell you about that. Or if they mention it,
they will put phrase it like "America liberated the population of Irak (insert
any country here) from the dictarship".

But the press on other countries could say different things about the USA:

"Not only is USA has a long history of creating coup-d'etat in foreign
countries (e.g: South America), and installing governments that favor their
policy and killing thousands of innocent people to achieve that. But also is
known to create false evidence to invade countries to steal their oil and
killing thousands of innocent people, again. And recently it has been proved
that the USA spied on their allies to..."

I don't want to put in a way that the USA is "bad" or China "good", or vice-
versa.

But the important thing here is: critical thinking. Don't buy what the press
tells you.

Is China "bad" ? Who is telling you that China is "bad" ? Does the person that
is telling you that China is "bad" gain something from it? Is that person any
better than China?

Companies are driven to make money. Otherwise they would be an NGO, and not a
company.

~~~
sonnyblarney
"USA steals a lot of stuff too. But of course the American press won't tell
you about that. Or if they mention it, they will put phrase it like "America
liberated the population of Irak "

This is complete rubbish.

The US is not in the business of industrial espionage for commercial purposes
- either on a corporate or governmental level, where China is.

Second - geopolitical issues have nothing to do with theft of IP, and usually
not even resources (at least not in Central America).

'Central American countries' or 'Iraq' definitely have nothing to offer the US
or anyone else in terms of the kind of IP theft one might be concerned about
in China.

America did not 'steal' anything from Iraq - their Oil is their own, they
receive 100% of the revenue, not only that, they are free to partner with any
company they use, in fact, they ended up going with entities like Total
(France), Statoil (Russia) etc. _instead_ of US companies. (I guess as a
'thanks' for the fact they are now free to do as they please, and the Oil
belongs to the people of Iraq instead of Saddam Co.)

"China is bad" because they steal IP, there is no rule of law, there is
widespread corruption, pollution, there is total control of the people by the
state and people dissapear of the street for no reason.

Literally, as we speak, China is incarcerating 100's of thousands, possibly
millions of people due to their ethnicity or religion, and harvesting their
organs as they are killed on trumped up charges. [1]

When we use the term 'Nazi' or 'concentration camps', usually it's hyperbole -
but it's not: we now have a major power rounding up people by the millions due
to ethnicity and culling their organs. This is actualy Nazi level stuff.

The level of moral relativism implied here is repulsive.

[1] [https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-
harvesting/i...](https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-
harvesting/index.html)

~~~
koonsolo
> The US is not in the business of industrial espionage for commercial
> purposes - either on a corporate or governmental level, where China is.

Seriously? You are kidding right? You must be kidding.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_espionage)

The most poplular examples are probably German Enercon and Dutch Airbus, but
our own Belgian Lernout & Hauspie was also targeted by something you are in
complete denial of.

It's Europe here, we're supposed to be allies, no? So why is your government
literally stealing business using industrial espionage? That's like sleeping
with your best friends wife.

So yeah, get your facts straight please.

"No I didn't sleep with your wife, I would never do such a thing! But THAT
guy, THAT guy does it!"

~~~
wuliwong
I have no clue what level of industrial espionage takes place in the US or
China but the fact that it _has_ occurred in both places does not speak to the
frequency and severity that these types of actions are taken. All your
examples could be true and still the Chinese govt. could be orders of
magnitude worse.

To me all of this is nearly irrelevant to OP's original point which was taking
an American company's manufacturing to China is a risk. I don't think OP was
implicitly making the claim that moving a Chinese company's manufacturing to
the US is less of a risk. That seems to be the tangent that the comment thread
has taken but it was not part of the original comment. I think there is more
of a risk that the Chinese government will steal the IP from Apple in China
than the US government will steal the IP from Apple in the US.

~~~
koonsolo
I was reacting to this statement: "The US is not in the business of industrial
espionage for commercial purposes - either on a corporate or governmental
level", which is obviously false. I wanted to rectify that.

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selimthegrim
Trump doesn't use computers; he probably won't tweet about this.

