
Norway votes to decriminalise drugs and offer treatment instead of jail time - pimeys
https://inews.co.uk/news/world/norway-votes-decriminalise-drugs-offer-treatment-instead-jail-time/
======
erokar
I live in Norway. While I'm happy about this vote, it remains to be seen how
it will play out in practice. So far the Norwegian drug policy has been
terrible — police searches of homes and cars with questianble probable cause;
routinely harassment of drug addicts by police/police policy of going after
low hanging fruits to easily improve statistics; and severe penalty for drug-
related crimes (> $150 fine for carrying 1 gram of marihuana, as much as 21
years in prison for smuggling marihuana). Norway has a long way to go. The
parliment vote is promising, but as for now I'm cautiously optimistic about
how it will play out in practice.

~~~
pi-rat
I also live in Norway, my SO is a psychologist specialising in addiction,
according to her this is a big step in the right direction.

She routinely have patients motivated to quit, who make big progress during
treatment, who manage to turn their life around, they've broken contact with
the "drug community", they might even have gotten to a point where they can
hold a job, and have gotten a job, some might have started a family, they're
essentially on the home run.

Then BAM!, out of the blue, the glacially slow moving judicial system calls
them to court, and charge them for their past transgressions from ~2 years
ago. If they're really unlucky they got caught with 2-3 days (of personal use)
worth of drugs - enough to qualify them as a dealer and several years in jail.

Nothing ruins a successful treatment and break from your past like getting
knocked into jail with your old pals for a few years. It happens again and
again and again, it's GIANT waste of resources.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
Australian here. I was charged with two counts of Traffic Controlled Drug and
one count of Possess Prescription Drug without lawful excuse on the 28th of
December 2012. I was carrying only a little bit more that I might typically be
in possession of because it was three days before new years eve.

It took two years three months to sort it out in the courts. Fortunately I got
referred to a barrister who managed to get the charges dropped. I got all my
cash back from the police, that was a pleasant experience.

Point being, in those two years and three months I cleaned myself up, got a
job and was ready to buy a house, but still had the charges hanging over me.
My god, what a stress.

------
jakobegger
This sounds like the right thing to do. But in practice, a lot is going to
depend on how the legal system deals with "dealers".

When you say "drug dealer", most people think of some gangster type who makes
a lot of money by exploiting poor addicts. But that's not the reality.

If you use drugs, and you don't have a job, selling a bit of the stuff is the
most obvious way to make some money. So a lot of drug users will become drug
dealers as well. I think that these people need help as well; putting them in
jail doesn't help anyone.

But it can get even worse. Imagine that you are a drug user, and you need some
drugs. So you ask a friend, who is also a drug user, if they have any left,
and if you can buy it off of them. Boom, they're a dealer now as well.

So in reality, a large part of drug users are going to be drug dealers as
well. If you decriminalise drug use, but keep prison sentences for dealing, a
lot will hinge on the question what makes someone a dealer.

~~~
jrs95
At least around where I am, the police tend to threaten these people with
extreme penalties when arrested in order to get them to give up their supplier
in exchange for a much lighter sentence. So decriminalizing small time dealing
will make it more difficult to prosecute the people who really are the
gangster types.

~~~
ajmurmann
I am very concerned about stronger penalties that are there to coerce someone
to do something rather than be proportional as a deterrent or whatever else
the legal system is supposed to do in a given country. It puts you too much at
the mercy of the police. This reminds me of the strategy prosecutors are using
in the US where they are piling insane amounts of charges on to force the
supposed criminal to take a plea bargain instead of going to court.

To me that's a quick path to where legal systems go to die.

~~~
eecc
Remember Aaron Swartz. Prosecutor Carmen Ortiz threw so much preposterous book
at him that he cracked and killed himself. An indelible shame and loss for all

------
marze
Bottom line, deaths from overdose:

Drugs criminalized, USA:

185 deaths/million people/year

Not criminalized, treatment focused Portugal:

6 deaths/million people/year

[http://www.aei.org/publication/chart-of-the-
day-5/](http://www.aei.org/publication/chart-of-the-day-5/)

~~~
gok
Drugs highly criminalized, South Korea: 0.1 deaths/million people/year [1]

This is a much more complicated issue than numbers from two countries could
possibly tell.

[1]
[http://www.unodc.org/wdr2017/field/3.1_Mortality.xls](http://www.unodc.org/wdr2017/field/3.1_Mortality.xls)

~~~
thomastjeffery
One point that may be significant is that South Korea has only one land
border, and it is heavily guarded.

~~~
che_shirecat
how is this significant in any way to the topic of drug-related deaths?

~~~
BigJono
It's much easier to catch someone smuggling drugs through an airport than it
is stopping someone from walking over an imaginary line that's thousands of
kilometres long. So less drugs in circulation, which would have an effect on
death rates.

~~~
craftyguy
Koreans have boats, and a very large coastline...

~~~
mc32
Sure, but their closest marine neighbor is also very hard on drugs and drugs
dealers (Japan).

------
lb1lf
This has been suggested by the liberals (Venstre), socialists and the greens
for some time now, what made this happen to a large extent was that a number
of younger conservatives have spent lots of time lobbying for a new stance in
their party (Høyre).

With any luck, the next goal will be legalisation and most drugs being sold by
either pharmacies or the state-run stores (Vinmonopolet) which already have a
monopoly on selling alcohol at over 4.75% by volume.

Replacing the dirty drugs addicts currently consume with pharmaceutical-
quality stuff will work wonders for our drug-related deaths statistics - not
to mention the improvement in quality of life for those affected and the hit
the current criminal suppliers will take.

~~~
jacobr
It would be an interesting experiment to extend Vinmonopolet since the
infrastructure and culture (restricted opening hours, no advertisements, etc -
at least that's how it works in Sweden) around it already exists. This would
be different to other countries where you probably would have to trust for-
profit actors to handle it well, or implement a monopoly from scratch.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
That probably depends on how much space it needs at the end and whether or not
you allow things like coffee shops (after all, we are talking full
legalisation).

If they just need a counter, I'm guessing Vinmonopolet will do just fine even
though their stores tend to be small with well-used space. If they allow for
coffee shops/bars, it might be split much like alcohol: Weaker or set strength
pre-rolled joints available at grocery stores much like cigarettes and beer
and unrolled pot/hash at the liquor stores.

------
curtis
As a reminder, decriminalization is not the same thing as legalization. This
distinction seems to get lost in these kinds of discussions. Decriminalization
is an approach for countries that see drug abuse as a serious problem that
needs to be managed as well as possible. It is not a solution for people who
regard recreational drug use as a civil liberties issue.

~~~
kowdermeister
It's not the same, but it's the first step. They probably thought the general
public will perceive it better than going straight with legalization.

~~~
mantas
Or they see drug addicts as health care issue, not criminals. Portugal has
decriminalised more than a decade ago and they don't seem to turn to
legalisation any time soon?

~~~
kowdermeister
Motivations can be very different, as you say, drug addicts need help not jail
time. Norway seems to me as a progressive nation, I hope they are on the right
path.

~~~
mantas
What is "the right path" though? Some people would say legalisation is the
only path and other people, while supporting decriminalisation, wouldn't ever
support legalising and promoting a health issue.

Knowing Nordic history with alcohol, I'd say they're on the right path to
treat their addicts and keep drugs at bay.

------
nscalf
Good, now the rest of the world needs to adopt this model. I understand some
of the contempt towards drug addicts, but at the end of the day these people
are sick in some way. We (Americans, and much of the world) have spent years
demonizing anyone involved in drugs, and it has not turned out well in any
measurable way.

If you want a healthy society, help society get healthy.

~~~
codebolt
As a Norwegian with extensive personal experience with the drug community
(both from my parents generation in the 60's/70's and from the millenial
generation), I just want to say that I really don't agree with the
victimization of these people. Most of them are completely to blame for their
own poor lifestyle choices and should be made to take personal responsibility
for the outcome. I certainly hope these political changes don't usher in a new
period of increased drug use, or somehow lead to an increased burden of
undeserving youth abusing the welfare system. But that is what I fear.

~~~
RepressedEmu
I think it's interesting that you fear a hypothetical future of "undeserving
youth abusing the welfare system" more than the current reality of
"undeserving youth not getting the help they need and dying in the streets".
You might wanna double-check your math on that value system you're using.

~~~
codebolt
Norway already has very generous social welfare programs, and nobody who is
willing to look for help is dying in the streets. The notion of undeserving
youth abusing the welfare system is also far from hypothetical.

Consider: I hold university degrees in two STEM fields and earn a decent
salary in the private sector. My wife is currently finishing up her education
and is receiving a very basic student loan/scholarship. We have two young
children to support.

However, my friend and his girlfriend, who were out of work this year, were
receiving more in government welfare put together than I was getting paid
after tax, and they don't even have children. It frustrates me that the
government is taking my hard earned and much needed money and giving it to my
lazy friend, who uses it to gamble and buy useless luxury goods. And I know
several other examples of people in my age group who complain to their doctor
about being "depressed", so they can start living on welfare. In my eyes,
these people are undeserving, and a symptom of a broken system.

------
escanda
FYI here in Spain you can possess drugs at your home - any illegal substance -
because it is not illegal. You can't deal drugs nor carry them along with you
on the street. You can grow for instance, as well, marijuana if it is for your
own consumption. IMHO it's a pretty nice spot although people claim for a
legal framework to grow weed as in some states of US or other countries.

~~~
pfortuny
Yes. Actually, as far as you do not consume them publicly or carry them with
aim of distributing them (what is called "personal use"), they are not
illegal.

I think we are at a good middle spot. There are some problems in both end of
the society spectrum but as far as I know deaths by overdose are not as large
as they used to be.

~~~
sigotirandolas
AFAIK, it's actually illegal to carry them in any public space, even if it's
for personal consumption.

There are also some other points where I think the law/jurisprudence can be
improved (e.g. harm reduction supplies such as accurate scales can be
considered as evidence of trafficking), but still, overall the law doesn't
impose excessive penalties on drug users, and of course is better than most
other countries in the world.

------
qwerty456127
What if a person has no addiction but just enjoys a joint (or even some
cocaine) on occasion, i.e. like other people can enjoy a beer or two at times
without being alcoholics? Are they still going to force them through treatment
or what?

------
crispinb
When we do definitively roll back the fraudulent catastrophe that has been the
multi-decade international War on Drugs, could we lock up some of its
proponents? Punitive measures are almost always risible policy, but it might
be fun to have just a few years' worth of payback.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _could we lock up some of its proponents?_

For breaking what law? There are good reasons we make it tough to arrest
politicians for their political decisions.

~~~
crispinb
I would have thought you could give my very serious policy proposal some
slightly more considered analysis.

~~~
fsloth
Uh, generally locking people up just for doing politics is considered a malady
- the term "political prisoner" never sounds great.

~~~
crispinb
I'm looking forward to your detailed response to my upcoming policy white
paper entitled "Retrospective prison sentences for War on Drug Proponents:
recommending another risible policy measure"

~~~
JumpCrisscross
It is inane to posit future, unknown counter arguments to a present, cogent
one.

~~~
crispinb
Such a Modest Proposal. So much angst.

------
sergefaguet
This is good. Not nearly enough but good.

Certain things - MDMA, LSD, GHB - should be legal and regulated. They are all
things that have the potential to make lives of many people significantly
better. They certainly made mine better.

Drugs should be manufactured in a reliable way, researched, and educated
about.

~~~
whiddershins
How can you know which drugs do and don’t make people’s lives better?

There’s so much misinformation around this topic, I really have no idea
whether cocaine is actually a drug that can be used to benefit, Aleister
Crowley certainly claimed so, or meth, or who knows.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
A lot of drugs are in both categories. On that note, it really isn't different
from alcohol, coffee, or gambling. Most folks just use them to relax
sometimes, so mostly benefit.

On the crowley note: My time spent in occult circles tells me something
similar. Some folks benefit, some folks don't and it has just as much to do
with their particular slant on Thelema or other path as it does with their
personality and reaction. Though I will say LSD, shrooms, DMT, pot, tobacco
and alcohol seem to be the more common "helpers".

------
whatyoucantsay
>“It is important to emphasise that we do not legalise cannabis and other
drugs, but we decriminalise.

>“The change will take some time, but that means a changed vision: those who
have a substance abuse problem should be treated as ill, and not as criminals
with classical sanctions such as fines and imprisonment.”

In relative terms, this is progress. The question is, how will they treat the
"ill" with their cannabis "substance abuse problems"? One can only marvel at
all the overdose deaths they'll be racing to prevent.

------
messo
This is good news, but somewhat incorrect. There hasn't been an official vote,
rather an agreement that has been reached among a majority of the members of
parliament, in regard to the budget planing for the next 4 years. The fact
that this agreement involves parties from the far left, to the centrum-right
is quite unique and promising. The fact that they did this in a very public
and bold way is also a good sign. This would have been unthinkable just 2-3
years ago.

(I live in Norway, and follow the drug policy closely.)

------
noahdesu
A group called EmmaSofia [0] in Norway, which I understand to analogous to
MAPS [1] in the US, did an AMA on Reddit [2] recently regarding sentencing
guidelines related to an LSD arrest. It seems like things are changing for the
better, though I really should not even pretend to have a grasp on Norwegian
politics.

> "The short story is this: Henrik got his apartment raided by police do to a
> confiscation of LSD in a mail order that they were able to link to him. The
> police originally wanted a 5 month prison sentence, but through three court
> instances we managed to present enough evidence to convince the court to
> reduce precedence for LSD-related cases quite substantially. The Supreme
> Court decided on 45 days of community service."

[0]: [http://www.emmasofia.org/](http://www.emmasofia.org/)

[1]: [http://www.maps.org](http://www.maps.org)

[2]:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/7cnqvv/we_are_emmasof...](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/7cnqvv/we_are_emmasofia_the_organization_that_helped_get/)

------
sytelus
TLDR;

 _When a person is found in possession of a small amount of drugs, the drugs
are confiscated and the person is interviewed by a psychiatrist, a social
worker and a lawyer. Following this, a number of sanctions can be put in place
such as a ban on visiting certain places, a foreign travel ban and a small
fine, in line with the country’s minimum wage._

------
hguhghuff
Decriminalizing is silly without also giving access to legally buy the
product.

Regulated legalization gets rid of the criminals.

------
adrusi
Treating drug use as a medical problem in need of treatment is not necessarily
an improvement over treating it as a crime. When we treat it as a crime there
are sentencing guidelines. Yes, the guidelines we have now, at least in the
US, are draconian, but we could have less draconian guidelines without
medicalization.

When we medicalize drug use, the guidelines disappear. People who are
involuntarily committed to mental institutions arent prescribed dates for
release, they can remain institutionalized for life. If we go down the path of
medicalization, we might see some drug users forced into rehab, and then into
the equivalent of parole where they return to society but are administered
mandatory drug tests periodically. And then back into rehab, cycling forever.

I don't want to be too alarmist. Portugal's been doing this for a while, and I
haven't heard of anything like this happening. But drugs like heroin and
cannabis were illegal in the United States for decades before the war on drugs
started. All it takes to get from current Portugal to my hypothetical scenario
is for the political stars to align and suddenly we're calling for a revamp of
the drug rehabilitation institutions to have a lower relapse rate, and now
we're on the road to life sentences for heroin users. And it's harder to
convince people that it's wrong because now we're _helping_ them, not
punishing.

------
gumby
Absurd: this will destroy the economy. Who is worrying about the fate of
prison guards, policemen, the bribes and government contracts? We need to
invent _more_ additions, offenses, and draconian punishments, not fewer.

If we get rid of drug crimes our only hope is to ramp up the terrorism fears.

------
starkrev
Jail Time is in essence rehab without the professional helthia - wellbeing and
unrestrict to unsupervised visits, access to learning etc, should be a part of
every rehabilitation/Incarceration centre, be it the first step and last for a
drug user or a statuatory release programme for prisoners.

~~~
simonh
This is a joke post right? Very funny. Drugs are rife in prisons and
institutions, they’re massive concentrated drug dens.

~~~
starkrev
Norway relies on a "restorative justice" system which aims to repair the harm
caused by crime rather than punish people. Drugs are not that accessible, I
speak from experience. Drug addiction is not a crime, punishing an addict is.
I took the time to talk to inmates and hear their stories. Every ones got a
story, listen carefully and you may find empathy in the strangest of places
and if not at least an understanding.

------
drefanzor
As someone who spent many years in the United States (Arizona) Prison system,
this is a great step forward. Although it still won't stop drug users from
committing crimes to get their next fix.

~~~
pmoriarty
_" it still won't stop drug users from committing crimes to get their next
fix"_

Just subsidize the cost of drugs for those that can't afford them, and problem
solved.

A fraction of Trump's tax cut should do the job.

------
harry8
We so need to acknowledge that drugs won the war on drugs and get on with
sensible policy beyond declaring war on nouns, abstract or otherwise.

~~~
teddyh
War on nouns? Like in Steve Yegge’s _Execution in the Kingdom of Nouns_?

[https://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-
kingdo...](https://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom-of-
nouns.html)

~~~
harry8
nah, java style verbing any and every noun is something else.

We war on:

    
    
        drugs
        cancer
        terror
        poverty
        gangs
        crime
    

we need to verb the noun war in the sense that, 'the president "warred on"
...' Meaning a stupid policy was followed that generally left everyone one
vastly worse off except a bunch of high priced consultants.

"warred on" should have the same general meaning as "shat on their own desk"

------
pmoriarty
How powerful and profitable is the prison industry in Norway?

~~~
maaaats
Government run, and focused on rehabilitation and not punishment. Often
featured here on HN, actually.

------
known
In India selling, not consumption is a crime.

------
gaius
Here's the thing about decriminalizing drugs in a wealthy Western nation: you
have to address the supply side too. Which means raising hemp, coca, poppies
etc on Western farms run under Western regulations. Because boosting demand in
the West while knowing the conditions under which the drugs are produced, is
extremely unethical. Other than that, I have no issue with it.

~~~
simonh
Please read the article or read up on the Portuguese model. Dealing in drugs
is still illegal. This has nothing whatever to do with legalising the trade in
drugs.

Using them is decriminalised, which among other things enables medical
professionals to help drug users without risking prosecution for aiding and
abetting, and helps break the cycle of prison and criminal records that trap
drug users in their behaviour pattern.

------
X86BSD
The war on drugs is an EPIC faulted by any measure. It’s almost criminal in
itself. Addiction is a health issue NOT a brutal police force issue.

End the war on drugs. Stop tearing families apart for non violent offenders
and victimless crimes.

Dissolve the DEA. Return the money to the tax payers. Lower taxes.

Stop the savagery. Portugal and now Norway. Hopefully the sane nations
continue to grow.

------
ringaroundthetx
people will agree with any sanction the state has for a particular action
whether it is summary execution for a furtive movement, or merely being put on
a list

so this is a good move from the parliament to preserve compatibility of
offenders with enlightened society

------
alvil
Norwegian islamic republic, with half of nation on drugs, without terrestrial
broadcasting and without cash, easy to manipulate:D Fuck neoliberals.

~~~
sctb
Many of your comments, like this one, violate the guidelines. Please read them
and don't post like this again.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
thuuuomas
But where will Norway source their compulsory, unpaid labor if not from
private prisons clogged with drug war causalities?

~~~
eitland
We never did that in the first place :-)

~~~
fmihaila
I read it as snark directed at the U.S., not Norway.

~~~
eitland
Might be, but it could be read to mean that we already do that.

------
absurding
something done 16 years ago already in Portugal

~~~
deadbunny
So we should just not report on it then? What's your point?

~~~
absurding
my point is a simple observation

