

In Spanish, It's Not Your Fault - gnosis
http://www.erik-rasmussen.com/blog/2009/07/24/in-spanish-its-not-your-fault/

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nachopg
That's indeed very interesting. Linguistic relativity
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity>) is IMHO one of the most
appealing approaches because it seeks to reveal the mysteries I'm interested
about when it comes to linguistics. A very good reference for this topic, in
this aspect, is Lakoff and Johnson's book on the 'domestic' metaphors:
"Metaphors We Live By" (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_metaphor>).
They illustrate how the crystalized metaphors in each language show the
underlying cultural ways of molding the reality that is presented equally to
each culture. (BTW, I have a major in spanish linguistics, hence my interest,
hence my poor english)

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torrenegra
As a native Spanish speaker from Colombia I also love the topic of linguistic
relativity :)

Some of the Spanish examples sound uncommon to me, though. "Se han perdido las
llaves" is grammatically correct, but I would not use it. Instead I would say
"boté las llaves" if I lost them ("I lost the keys"), or "las llaves se
perdieron" if somebody else lost them but I didn't want to accuse that person
("the keys got lost).

Also, I never think of things doing actions "for me" but, instead, "on me".
For example, if say "La planta que me diste se me ha muerto" ("the plant you
gave me has died on me") I would not be implying that the plant "died for me",
but only that the plant died while on my possession.

P.S. Just in case, in real-life this is what I say: "¿Dónde están las putas
llaves?"

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paradoja
I am a native Spanish speaker from the Canary Islands. It's is quite clear
that the author is learning mainland Spain's Spanish, as he uses "patata" for
potato, instead of "papa", which I believe is used everywhere else. There,
those phrases are quite common ones to use for that situations.

~~~
Mz
So perhaps it should be "In Spain, it's not your fault"?

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gnosis
Mirror of the article:

[http://www.erik-rasmussen.com.nyud.net/blog/2009/07/24/in-
sp...](http://www.erik-rasmussen.com.nyud.net/blog/2009/07/24/in-spanish-its-
not-your-fault/)

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PixelRobot
I think the author is taking Spanish too literally here. Just because the
literal translation doesn't imply blame or seems to take it away for an
English speaker doesn't mean that Spanish speakers don't see it there.

"Se han perdido las llaves" is not going to make you look less guilty than "I
lost the keys" when used in context.

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jgershen
I've always liked the correspondence between idioms in natural languages and
idioms in programming languages, especially as it pertains to how we think
about problems.

See <http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html> (May 2002) for a great explanation.

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dawkins
As a native Spanish speaker I never thought that I was expressing something
different when talking in English.

You would say "se me han perdido las llaves". The "me" implies that I am the
one who lost them.

Probably the thoughts are universal and we just express them in different
ways.

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aristus
I'm not sure how far you can take this line of reasoning without fooling
yourself. But some words are not like the others.

"Gustar" is usually rendered as _to like_. That leads to weird mistakes, eg a
Spanish speaker may say "you like me" when they mean "I like you". A more
correct translation is _to please_ , eg "me gusta esto" -> "this pleases me".
The constructions are not from an alien world, they are just more like
Shakespearian English than modern.

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Mz
This is awesome and I think it explains a lot about the warmth of Hispanic
culture. As a default position, I don't assume people are 'guilty' of things
but I frequently get feedback from folks who seem to feel I have attacked,
criticized, accused, etc. It is hard in English to convey "x happened (but I
am not blaming you)".

Excerpt:

 _Se han perdido las llaves

“The keys have lost themselves.” I didn’t lose the keys. They did it to
themselves.

La planta que me diste se me ha muerto.

“The plant you gave me has died on me.” I didn’t kill it! And it didn’t just
die, it died for me._

I will add that in the last year or so, I have taken a cue from Spanish and
French and started saying "No problem" most of the time when thanked. I think
the phrase "You're welcome" reinforces a sense of social obligation that makes
me uncomfortable -- a sense of indebtedness. "De rien" or "de nada" ("it's
nothing") acknowledges the "thank you" without conveying a sense of "now you
owe me". So I have begun trying to find an English version of conveying that
idea/feeling/social paradigm. "No problem" is the reply I find myself using
most often.

~~~
cgs1019
I spent some time in Puerto Rico and found that the third person reflexive is
commonly used this way as a sort of passive voice. For example, a "for sale"
sign will read "se vende" (loosely, "it is sold" moreso than "it sells
itself").

Having worked in the service industry (restaurants, specifically) for many
years, I have an inclination to avoid "no problem" as it may be construed that
whatever isn't a problem might have been. I generally opt for "my pleasure,"
"anytime," "sure thing," etc. when I am interfacing with someone for whom I
provide a service.

~~~
Mz
You know, I'm sort of a hippie-tree-hugger, make-love-not-war kind of
personality and I find that when I say things like "my pleasure" or "anytime",
it makes some of my social problems worse. Those are the types of phrases I am
inclined to use, but for some reason it just makes people feel like I owe
them, they can impose, I am never allowed to make a mistake or have a bad day
or not be able to give 1000% or...something. I have never been able to quite
put my finger on the cause of these strong emotional reactions I get from
quite a lot of people where total strangers seem to think I am supposed to
love them, to the ends of the earth. But I have found I need to actively tone
down my tendency to be warm, effusive, emotionally generous and the like. It
just causes me too many problems.

At the moment, much of the time when I am being thanked, it is for
disseminating information at work -- tips and tricks that make my job easier.
This is supposed to be part of the culture and something we are all encouraged
to do. But I get these gushy responses that I think are just not work
appropriate. I have found that a low key "no problem" seems to be the lesser
evil of my available options. (Not replying seems to make people feel
incredibly, phenomenally rejected by me.)

~~~
chronomex
I usually say "my pleasure"; when that doesn't work for me I go with a simple
"certainly". It has the feel of "that's my job and I'm doing it" to me.

~~~
Mz
I think one of the issues at work is that I have an entry level job and a
great deal more formal education than my coworkers and both my immediate
bosses (though one of them is actively pursuing more education, and that seems
to help reduce my problems). So a lot of my tips and tricks are dramatically
better answers. It causes problems. I try to deflect the uptick in perceived
social status. I don't make any more money than these other people or have any
more authority. It's important that I get treated as their equal.

I will have to keep "certainly" in mind and see if I can't find a good way to
use that.

