
Fighting to Shut Out the Real India - mjfern
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/07/world/asia/07iht-letter07.html
======
ankeshk
Here is a snapshot of India that is helpful to folks not living here.

The 2011 census just came out. What is the literacy rate? 75% only. That means
25% Indians can't read or write. Thats 300 million Indians that can't read and
write. 300 million. Thats a big number. If you focus on that number, you will
think that India is in a bad state. Doing pathetic. No hope.

But you need to go back a bit. In the last 10 years alone (from 2001 to 2011),
the number of literate people in India has risen from 650 million to 900
million. That is a huge jump. A shift of 250 million people to literacy in 10
years.

That is India. Statistically - when compared to other countries - seems to be
in the dumps. But improving at a rate that is crazy to comprehend.

India is like that dorky adolescent kid with warts and pimples popping up all
over the face. Give her 20-30 more years.

~~~
zeteo
>India is like that dorky adolescent kid with warts and pimples popping up all
over the face. Give her 20-30 more years.

Now that's a poorly chosen metaphor! What will the adolescent girl do in 20-30
years, replace pimples with wrinkles?!

~~~
akgerber
Look like a dignified adult with some grey hairs & some worthwhile life
experiences behind her, given that she is always growing & learning?

------
ajhai
> Not surprisingly, a recent law that forces private schools to reserve 25
> percent of the seats for financially disadvantaged children has become
> controversial

[http://righttoeducation.in/media/no-objection-25-quota-
say-p...](http://righttoeducation.in/media/no-objection-25-quota-say-pvt-
schools)

~~~
bdhe
This is an interesting development. So one of the biggest problems to
providing reservations (as they are called) is that the system is so corrupt
it is very difficult to ensure that only the needy and deserving get the
benefit. There are tons of people who "scam" these schemes by forging
documents of income and or caste (which are usually the basis for these
reservations). Until the underlying problem is fixed, these schemes, although
noble will only be so on paper.

------
yalogin
Wonderful article. Its absolutely true.

Its a democracy for the world to see but its really corrupt and like the
article says the rich can do absolutely anything and get away with it while
the poor are stuck and their lives never get any better. There is really no
hope for India because the educated middle-class already earn a very decent
living and so is happy. In any country the middle class is the catalyst for
change and I don't see that happening in India. They are too happy with where
India (their own life) is and so they have a fierce sense of nationalism that
everything is good. Just go to /r/india on reddit and see how people blindly
attack anyone criticising India as ignorant and a wannabe westerner.

~~~
known
It is dummy democracy. 80% Indians are surviving on 20 rupees/day. Do you
think these people can vote as per their conscience in elections?

~~~
rooney
Yes, they do and they did. Nitish Kumar, the Chief Minister of Bihar(a
backward state), was reelected with absolutely majority due to his honest and
dedicated efforts during his 1st 5 year tenure. Poor/Rich, people of all
castes/religions, voted unanimously for him and his good work.

~~~
known
I hope you know India is _not_ a
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy> And people do not elect a
Chief Minister in India.

~~~
rooney
Another wrong and irrelevant comment. I live in India. I am from Bihar. I know
how my state works and how my Chief Minister is elected every 5 years. Both
the main parties are headed by their respective leaders. Nitish Kumar heads
the JDU and there has never been any doubt, before or after the elections,
whatsoever, that he was going to be the Chief Minister. Yes, the party can
elect anyone as the chief minister but thats purely in theory. In practice,
every party throws forward their chief candidate for the Chief Minister post
and they have always stuck to it - in every state - over last 60 years of
Independence.

I suggest you stop trolling HN with your predefined bias against India. Yes,
we have problems and we acknowledge it more than anyone else but you should
stop trolling.

~~~
known
As per Transparency International India, Bihar is the most corrupt state in
India. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar#Economy>

Keep your corruption/suggestions to yourself.

<https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Forward_caste> community has
brainwashed Indian voters to believe that _voting in elections = democracy_
and a solution to
[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Caste_system_...](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Caste_system_in_india)
[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Corruption_in...](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Corruption_in_India)
[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Poverty_in_in...](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Poverty_in_india)

~~~
rooney
You have no basis but online links that have no relation to the transformation
that is underway. Try and search around about the transformation of Bihar over
last 5 years since Nitish Kumar came to power and how it is the 2nd fastest
growing state in India and how corruption has taken a steep dive. It's okay.
You want to hate, do so. I ll pass.

------
groby_b
So basically, just like the U.S.?

~~~
motvbi
Yes you are right, India and the U.S. have a lot in common. The big difference
here in the U.S. is the larger middle class compared to India. The other two
big factors are corruption which is much more widespread and the caste system
which won't go away anytime soon.

Despite all that I believe India has moved in the right direction in the last
20 years. I couldn't imagine how it would have been if not for the reforms of
the nineties, which I personally believe has benefited all. Yes the rich have
gotten richer but the opportunities that didn't exist before do now for the
middle class and the poor. People don't have to depend on the government to
provide jobs.

~~~
intended
Yeah, the 90s opening of the market crushed the Indian economy and removed a
huge chunk of bad companies.

Its good to remember that what stands today, is what was left after being
opened up to the big bad world without any assistance. India has built its
entire tech base, and IT ability from scratch.

------
amitraman1
The scale of poverty is huge. With 1.2 billion, the number of poor and
destitute will always be high. This is unfortunate but true.

I go to India a lot and do see people locking themselves in from reality. BUT,
there are many more who do make an effort to improve the lives of the poor.

Anywho, India is India and will always be India. So if you don't like it,
don't go there. If you live there and don't like it, leave. Otherwise, take it
all in!

------
hariis
The article gives several examples of how things have changed from a few
decades ago. Likewise, a few decades from now, things would be different as
well.

This too shall pass.

------
known
For a Western it is quite easy to understand Indians and Indian society. If
you meet anybody from India, ask him "What Is Your Caste?"

------
known
This is one of best writeup on current life in India.

------
chailatte
A westerner's perspective.

Recent trip from bangalore airport to hotel. Started with a clean, hot dry
airport exit escorted to your air-conditioned car by hotel driver. Then
briefly open fields. Then 30 minutes of red dirt road, with freeway in view
barely in construction. With slums all along the street, with metal shacks
aptly named 'hotels', with heaps of trash openly laid out and eaten by cows,
with homeless kids/adults in bare feet walking along side of roads, with
groups of women on their knees dusting the road with brooms. Then briefly
comes tons of cars and people walking in between traffic. Tons of cars and
people. Some semblance of city began to form. 2 story buildings. Then you're
at your 5 star hotel in a 'nice' neighborhood. Across from slums and heaps of
garbage and dirt roads and massive traffic and beggars everywhere. This is
with no raining, which is usually 8 months out of the year.

Recent trip from Mumbai to airport hotel. Armed guards at outside the airport
entrance. Taxi drivers mobbing you, trying to grab your bags. Your driver
drives on local road as he speaks in his broken english how low this fare is,
and you seemed to be stuck in traffic for an eternity what should've taken
only 20 minutes. Highway barely constructed, with no workers in sight. Loud
motor cars everywhere, no semblance of order. Tons of beggars/slums fills the
side of the road. Nearby, restaurants, all with heaps of garbage sitting
outside the establishments, attracting only the locals. Some fancy houses
appear, but the are lost in the sea of ravage. A woman with a malnourished kid
comes to your taxi and knocks on your window and begs. A woman with a bloody
stump knocks on your taxi window, but your knowlegable friend says that's fake
blood, although the missing hand is real. Then after a while, you arrive in a
5 star hotel, in the most posh neighborhood/city in India, not 10 seconds away
from slums/garbage/cows/dirt. And this is with no rain.

A 3rd world country, with massive population and corruption and squatter's
rights and caste system and religious fervor and terrible weather/land. Same
economic progress in 1980s with China, but vastly diverged since.

I don't see a way out for India.

~~~
sundars
At various times westerners who dont understand the various forces at work in
india have predicted the fall of india. Churchill said: India will fall back
quite rapidly through the centuries into the barbarism and privations of the
Middle Ages (source: [http://www.winstonchurchill.org/learn/speeches/speeches-
of-w...](http://www.winstonchurchill.org/learn/speeches/speeches-of-winston-
churchill/105-our-duty-in-india))

Even we Indian barely understand all the forces and the interplay so I dont
hold it too much against ppl who pass such pronouncements.

In the last 30 years or so in every parameter (health/education/life span)
India has developed and this has happened to all stratas of sosciety. Please
understand that I am not refuting the nytimes article. I am saying that poor
people are also getting better.

Estimates for India also indicate a continuing decline in poverty. The revised
estimates suggest that the percentage of people living below $1.25 a day in
2005 (which, based on India’s PPP rate, works out to Rs 21.6 a day in urban
areas and Rs 14.3 in rural areas in 2005 ) decreased from 60% in 1981 to 42%
in 2005. Source:
[http://www.worldbank.org.in/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/SOUTHA...](http://www.worldbank.org.in/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/SOUTHASIAEXT/INDIAEXTN/0,,contentMDK:21880725~pagePK:141137~piPK:141127~theSitePK:295584,00.html)

Yes, the rich are getting richer but the poor are also getting a bit better.

I have hope.

~~~
afterburner
Who's predicting the fall of India? I think what's being predicted is the non-
rise of India.

~~~
known
India follows the "Sheep Herd" mentality. The whole country's economy is based
on people getting into "Profitable" domains mostly following the success of a
pioneer in the field. The most recent example of this ideology is the
"Business Process Outsourcing" industry. New BPO units are propping up here
and there at a dime a dozen leading to a quality deterioration in the final
deliverable. This process will continue till a saturation level is reached and
then they will wait till another "Killer" domain picks up momentum. Till then
India will be in a so called "Calm Period" where nothing great and major takes
place.

------
cooldeal
>A luxurious car with an unspeaking driver who works for 12 hours every day at
less than $200 a month,

Again. Comparing earnings in terms of USD is meaningless. $200/month in India
is vastly different from earning the same amount in the US.

Sad that even some HN'ers are taken in by this. In comments the other day
about outsourcing it was about Indian IT workers working for peanuts. Let me
tell you, first compare the prices of services and commodities and then
compare salaries and you will see the discrepancy.

>Rags-to-riches stories in India are popular but rare.

Rare? Well, I don't know the metric that the author is using for 'riches' but
it certainly is not rare.

~~~
known
Let me reveal a little secret. 80% Indians are willing to migrate to USA for
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility> at $200/month salary.

~~~
rjhackin
I don't think so, can you prove your little secret and what social reasons
would that be? just curious to know.

~~~
known
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility>

~~~
rjhackin
The only place where 'India' was mentioned for the link you provided is at the
last section towards the end of the page. It just talks about technological
advances and how people are related to that, but it doesn't say people are
migrating countries because of that.

~~~
known
You could have seen caste (in 1st para), unless you wanted to willingly
suppress it.

~~~
rjhackin
I really cannot undertand what you are trying to express. I really don't see
how 'caste' is linked to the article and your initial comment "80% Indians are
willing to migrate to USA...". Please try to understand what the problem is
and post comments on how that can be solved, that will make the conversation
interesting and live. I am not trying to suppress anything and i see most of
the comments here have gone in different directions.

~~~
known
I said in plain English that 80% Indians are willing to migrate to USA or
Western Nations at $200/month salary due to lack of
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility> in India.

I think you need to understand

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility> !=
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility>

------
known
It is quite easy to understand Indians and Indian society. If you meet anybody
from India, ask him "what is your caste?"

~~~
chakde
Answer: Probabaly higher than yours because only only low class people ask
crass questions.

Here's the book to actually understand India:- "Late victorian holocausts and
the making of the third world". [http://www.amazon.com/Late-Victorian-
Holocausts-Famines-Maki...](http://www.amazon.com/Late-Victorian-Holocausts-
Famines-Making/dp/1859843824/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1302338147&sr=8-1)

As Nehru and others had observed, poverty in India is highly correlated with
the length of British rule in that part of India, Bengal being the poorest and
Punjab the richest. This is actually true of the world in general - compare
Africa with Japan - prosperity is highly correleted with the colonial
experience a country had.

Caste is almost irrelevant - the Gini coefficient which measures inequality is
much higher in the US than in India.

India which was 25% of the world's economy in 1800 was essentially crushed by
the British to make way for their industrialization via a captive market.
Internal trade in India was crushed by internal tariffs. Railroads which had a
positive network effect in the US, had the opposite (destructive) network
effect in India killing its manufacturing base and driving millions to
unemployment and dependance on agricultural land which lead to the widespread
poverty you see today.

~~~
known
One of the most corruption nations in the world
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India>

836 million people live on 20 rupees a day
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India>

Pakistan is a better nation to do business than India & China
<http://www.doingbusiness.org/economyrankings/>

Indians among most corrupt while doing business abroad
[http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-
among-...](http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-among-most-
corrupt-while-doing-business-abroad.htm)

Economic mobility != Social mobility

------
visava
I was once told that if Hell is here then Heaven is also here. The Heaven is
hidden from material eyes.300 - 1000 years back it was present even in the
material form.But it attracted lot of crusaders. So now the heaven is hidden
by poverty and slums.The heaven is in the form of spiritual knowledge which
can lead you to self relaization.Only people actively on the spiritual path
can relate to this.

------
sudomanas
Typical liberal media crap

------
Cherian_Abraham
Which is why I believe that nothing competes with a Zombie Apocalypse as a
social equalizer.

~~~
Cherian_Abraham
In all honesty, that was not meant to be mean. Really, do you think Zombies
choose between Rich or Poor?

I am an Indian, has lived in US for the past 12 years. Every time I go to
India, I am all the more reminded of how the so-called progress has not
penetrated in to the lower stratas of the society.

I use public transportation every time I am home, not because I cannot afford
to shut out the outside world, but I love watching humanity upclose. To ride
in a bus along with 60-70 others, people whose sons I might have gone to
school with, finding familiar faces in the crowd, eavesdrop on conversations,
and for a moment think of their lives, and their dreams. You cant do that
while tucked away in the backseat of a Mercedes.

Class based social racism is a real problem in India. While trying to catch up
with their neighbors, we ignore the ones getting pushed deeper and deeper in
to the depths of poverty.

Another social equalizer? Education. And the fact that most of its free
(regardless of how bad it sometimes can be in India's public schools), I am
proud of my country.

~~~
nkurz
I see you are a fast learner as to what sort of comments are appreciated here.
You two comments are like the before and after photos for a fad diet plan.
Thanks for clarifying, and welcome to HN!

