
Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen? - luu
http://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/2x9q6r/best_way_to_handle_interviewer_asking_me_out_on_a/
======
ihsw
* Say no.

* Forward copies of emails to the company's leadership/HR department.

* Keep printed copies of the emails handy in case he decides to retaliate with lawyers.

* Keep your own legal counsel on speed-dial.

* Move on with your life.

There's not much you can do from a legal standpoint, with regards to
grievance/redress. Escalating the situation through contacting his boss/HR
carries a risk, even though you have the moral high-ground, but it could work
in getting him punished. Or it could achieve absolutely nothing.

Or he has a long history of this abusive behavior and this is the last straw
that will get him ejected from the company for being a serious
liability/generally unpleasant.

He has your resume, and he's exhibited awful behavior -- legal counsel should
definitely be at your disposal on a moments notice.

Naturally, if it really interests you, you can consult a lawyer to verify
whether there are any punitive measures you can apply against him. The OP
hasn't indicated that the guy has harassed her per se, so I don't know if she
has any legal standing regarding that.

~~~
beenpoor
Seriously ? All for asking her on a date ? I don't see any harassment or any
kind of quid pro quo. Mistakes happen all the time.

~~~
jarin
I'll take the risk of being buried along with beenpoor, but I should point out
that asking someone out once is not harassment. Harassment is asking them out
repeatedly after being turned down (i.e. it is known to be unwelcome).

Not making any excuses for what interviewer guy did at all, that was still
pretty slimy.

~~~
pyrocat
So making sexual advances in a professional setting is A-OK, as long as you
only do it once per person?

~~~
zak_mc_kracken
It's not sexual advances.

It's not in a professional setting.

Not saying that what he did is OK (it's not) but let's keep our facts
straight.

~~~
pyrocat
It's making an advance for the eventual goal of sex. How is that not a sexual
advance? How is an email chain between interviewee and interviewer, discussing
your interview results, not a professional setting?

~~~
ddoolin
People go to GREAT lengths for the "eventual goal of sex" all the time without
it being labeled a sexual advance, including striking up what may seem like
friendly conversation even though you may never have the slightest idea that
their end game was actually to screw you (among many other things). Arguably
the majority of anything that people do is for the eventual goal of sex.

The e-mail "later that evening" was not discussing the interview results. It
was a later email, presumably on his own.

~~~
marrs

        People go to GREAT lengths for the "eventual goal of sex"
    

Like get married

------
ditonal
You know, I'm all about being laid back and rejecting traditional corporate
culture, because you can be serious without a suit. But you still need the "be
serious" part, which somehow got lost between all the ping pong tables and
beer on tap. I actually think a big chunk of the industry encourages
unprofessionalism, because professionals do really obnoxious things like
negotiate compensation. I really hope that the tech scene can hold on to the
fun parts of what makes it special, while getting rid of terrible things like
this. But, in my opinion, culture and professionalism starts at the top, even
if it's easy to go after the low-status, low-political-power programmers at
the bottom. The typical company will give you sexual harassment training and
fire people who do inappropriate things, but the same companies encourage
their 20-somethings to get wasted at Friday happy hours and have few to no
women on their board of directors or executive management positions, and that
culture of men-in-charge inevitably trickles down.

~~~
methehack
Surely we can find a middle ground between ping pong and unzipped trousers.
The boundaries are just not that complicated.

I'm all for encouraging women in tech and executive positions, but we
shouldn't need women to tell us this is wrong or to police our behavior.

I hope none of that sounds too much like disagreement. I think we're mostly in
alignment, except perhaps the suggestion that with a preponderance of men in
executive positions and on boards this kind of behavior is inevitable. I have
to believe that men can do better on their own if they want to, however much
the help from women is welcome.

~~~
minopret
I applaud your point that harassment is largely a clear violation of norms,
not a gradation on a spectrum of relaxed behavior.

May I respectfully take issue though with the turn of phrase "we shouldn't
need women to tell us"? Does that wording illustrate a problem by assuming
that women are outsiders?

I write "illustrate" because I doubt that you really make that assumption. I
don't really mean to single you out. I just felt that this language throws
light on one of the problems facing women in our computing workplaces.

------
Archio
What the fuck? How does this shit happen? How on earth does someone, male or
female, get into such a state that they think it is appropriate to do
something like this in a professional setting?

Can someone explain to me how this works? I'm male in a male-dominated
industry, and of course I don't give a damn what people look like and treat
everyone with respect. The problem is, I don't believe a single one of my male
friends (or female friends) would be capable of doing something like this.

Where the hell do these people come from, and how can this be stopped? I hate
it when shit like this happens because I worry people will associate this
behavior with me.

~~~
vinceguidry
> The problem is, I don't believe a single one of my male friends (or female
> friends) would be capable of doing something like this.

I know guys who I wouldn't be surprised to see do something like this, mostly
from the bar I go to. I have female friends who know lots of guys who would
stoop to this. They would not necessarily believe there's a lot wrong with it,
and might welcome the advance if they liked the way he looked or acted. This
guy did it sight unseen though, I can't see any of my friends going for that.

There's a pervasive element in society of success in dating requiring playing
a numbers game, on both sides of the gender fence. My female friends all
expect me to be asking out any girl I think is attractive. Being asked out is
something that just happens all the time for them, they just seem to get used
to it. The context matters mostly as a signal for what it's going to be like
to date them.

An attractive female coworker of mine told me about how a lawyer who hires her
on the side to help him with document stuff asked her to dinner on a business
pretext and at that dinner was feeling her out for willingness to date him. I
was surprised that she accepted his invitation and didn't slam him for being a
creep for his behavior. She thought it was weird but didn't have a huge
reaction or anything, she told me like one might talk about any weird thing
that happens to you in the course of a day.

I have one IRL female friend who was a feminist and would definitely see
something wrong with this behavior. She's also extremely attractive and
describes getting hit on constantly. She definitely does not have a neutral
reaction to it. But she also relayed her fear to me that she'll never be able
to get married because feminism.

~~~
pm90
I think you discovered your answer in your last paragraph. The question being:
why did your attractive female friend accept the dinner invitation from creepy
lawyer guy? Every society has certain expectations of its members, and most
current societies think of marriage or relationships as being "the" natural
state to be in. i.e. if you're single, you're either a "player" or a "loser",
you can't just be...happily single. And from speaking to my female friends,
that pressure seems even worse for them.

The result is that most people, men and women, will give a shot at anything
that might lead to a relationship.

------
jarin
Dating within the tech industry is tough, especially when most of the people
you meet are also in tech, but you also don't want to contribute to the
problem of creating an environment where women feel like they're constantly
being evaluated not only for their skills but also as potential partners.

As a guy, it's probably best to just put the idea out of your mind altogether
unless specifically approached. Meeting romantic partners at work is extremely
common in other industries, but most of them don't have the same gender
imbalance problems that we do in STEM fields. I think it probably sucks for
everyone that dating in the tech industry is such a tricky thing, but I think
that's probably just a sacrifice we're going to have to make until we've got a
better culture and gender balance.

It's definitely not ok to take advantage of the power relationship between
interviewer and interviewee in any case.

~~~
xtrumanx
> ...unless specifically approached.

I don't even think that's a good idea. I don't live in the U.S. or in the
western world for that matter but from my reading of all issues in the tech
industry from HN it seems to me the best approach is to pretend your a eunuch
at work or around your colleagues no matter the location.

~~~
BadassFractal
I concur. I don't see how there's a way for genders to coexist in the same
work space without leaving sexuality completely out the door. Too many
opportunities for awkwardness, misunderstanding, legal liability, public
shaming, Internet outrage. It's not worth it. Work spaces must be 100%
asexual, I don't see how else you'd accomplish this. Open to suggestions.

------
tzs
So what are the rules for contacting someone you once interviewed in order to
suggest social interaction?

NOTE: I said "social interaction" rather than "a date" because I'm asking
about more general situations.

For instance, suppose you interview someone, and (unlike the guy in this
incident) are not using the interview to try to find someone to date. You
stick to questions specific to the job, plus more general questions about the
things on their resume, including open source projects they say they
contributed to.

You find them interesting and witty and enjoyed talking with them, but there
is someone better qualified who gets the job.

Six months later, you are planning to attend a one day conference on an open
source project you contribute to. It's a 3 hour drive to the conference. You
don't know anyone in your area who works on that project to ask along to make
the drive more interesting.

Then you remember the person you interviewed six months earlier is also a
contributor to the project.

Is it acceptable to contact them and tell them you are driving to the
conference and would like to find someone to come along to make the ride more
social, and asking if they would like to be that person?

~~~
getpost
No, it's not acceptable. I'm assuming you find the contact info by looking at
interview records in the scenario you gave. You can't ever use any privileged
information for personal purposes.

------
freddealmeida
That is so unprofessional I can't fathom it. Never work for a company that
values professionalism so low.

~~~
codeduck
I doubt this is a company-wide problem. I think this is an employee with a
serious inability to appreciate boundaries, and he should be removed from his
position of responsibility.

~~~
slantedview
Yet somehow this guy wormed his way into interviewing her. Someone let that
happen, and someone gave this guy interviewing responsibilities.

~~~
codeduck
Small company, he's a programmer - primary interviewer is busy (something came
up) - asks another technical person to cover for him. Happens all the time in
startups / small companies.

~~~
cglee
Question isn't if it happens all the time in small companies. What's under
discussion is whether this is what we want in our (the startup/tech) industry,
whether this is ok, or if there's something we should try to do about it.

First step is awareness, then next step is recognizing there's a problem. Your
comment stops at the first step.

~~~
codeduck
I was pointing out that the fact that this guy was conducting interviews was
understandable in the context of a small company - I have picked up interviews
for team members before when they were unable to make them.

I meant no implication about it being acceptable in small companies - it is
unacceptable everywhere.

------
beenpoor
I will go out on my limb here. It was a mistake on his part. See if you are
willing to let him go with a caution. I know everyone is crying for blood and
it is justified. Going to HR will likely ruin his resume for life (possibly).

~~~
eli
HR exists for addressing problems like this. You absolutely should talk to
them. I don't think it will "ruin his life" but whatever action is taken (if
any) is ultimately up to his bosses. This is unacceptable behavior and if no
one ever says anything about it, there's no reason to think it won't continue.

~~~
zak_mc_kracken
> HR exists for addressing problems like this.

They address problems for this _for the company_. HR is there to defend the
company, not the employees.

Letting HR know about the incident will likely cause this person to be
terminated.

I'm not saying OP should or should not do it, just clarifying the
consequences.

Personally, I think what this guy did is

\- a bit creepy

\- pretty mean since he probably turned her down so he could ask her out

Having said that, what he did is NOT

\- sexual harassment (there is no authority relationship at play)

\- abuse of power

~~~
eli
> Letting HR know about the incident will likely cause this person to be
> terminated.

HR doesn't generally have the ability to decide to fire people. So if this
person's bosses, in consultation with HR, think this is worth terminating
someone over, that's certainly their right.

I don't want to parse words with you, but this is wildly inappropriate
behavior and it certainly should not be ignored. HR is the correct department
to make sure it gets addressed.

And, frankly, some companies may believe that "creepy" and "mean" behavior on
its own is a serious offense even if, as you assert, no abuse or harassment
occurred.

------
ocdtrekkie
I would report it to their superior, or the CEO if they are the head of HR.
Particularly since it sounds like he may not have provided you a fair
interview.

Equality doesn't happen if people are silent about injustices.

------
woof
I don't see the drama, but then again I'm a guy (40+). If he just waited a few
weeks with that second mail, we could hardly fault him for being
unprofessional could we?

I don't believe she would have gotten then job with another interviewer (the
"more experience" part sounds plausible).

And if she was a really interesting candidate, another tech screen or phone
interview would be natural.

I'd tell any friend to say "thanks, but no thanks" and move on.

(If he's that creepy, he'd get her the job and hit on her then)

~~~
genofon
>I don't believe she would have gotten then job with another interviewer (the
"more experience" part sounds plausible).

please don't speculate, as she said if they were looking for "more experience"
why would he interviewed her in the first place? He also admitted that her cv
was interesting

>(If he's that creepy, he'd get her the job and hit on her then) hitting on a
co-worker is much more complicated than hitting on someone outside the
company. that's the point.

He is clearly abusing his position of power, it's not ethical and probably
also against the company's policy.

~~~
ddoolin
You're speculating in the same breath with which you say not to speculate. We
don't know why they interviewed her, and frankly we interview people fairly
often that don't have the requisite experience on paper because we know it
often has little to do with what's on the paper, a lesson HN readers are VERY
familiar with (the whole "meritocracy" thing).

~~~
genofon
based on the information we have he didn't do anything to test her experience.

------
therebase
my 2 cents:

* Say no to date in person

* Decline the job for reasons that you explain to the HR department: He asked you out on a date in a professional setting (I must inform you .... I regret ... best regards). Writing this in a friendly form (the HR person receiving this mail has not asked you for a date). This person will be up in arms for you. You will receive a very very friendly call from someone up the foodchain. See, it happened in person .. so you cant prove shit. But if you are a boss.

* Do not send the mail CC to the interviewer

* Close the mail friendly with best regards

* Document what you can. I guess the interviewer did not do this in written form.

* Go on and strike this company off the list of companies that you aspire to work for. Do not believe this was an single incident. When hiring people everything should be extra shiny (normally you discover problems after starting).

So with 15 years experience in the field: that shop is crap!

One thing: The tech job market is a sellers market. More people want to hire
than there are able engineers. You are not the one asking for something only.
The company is as well. A work relationship must be on the basis of a mutual
understanding what is ok and what not. Seems you have a difference here. Good
luck for the job hunt. The good companies are out there (and many people who
can show you the way for harassment free work experiences).

------
ottonomy
Oof.

The poster should forward that email to whoever else at the company can deal
with it so that hopefully someone else doesn't have to deal with it in the
future.

------
hoopism
Regardless of whether it was done creepily or innocently it's not something I
would do or tolerate.

Without any context I thought this seemed like an innocent scenario (guy is
not a creep)... but it doesn't matter. It's inappropriate regardless.

------
khug
As far as I can tell, the offence here is that he used privileged information
(contact details from her job application) to contact her about a personal
matter (the date).

Once her application was rejected there ceased to be a meaningful power
relationship. Some people seem to be implying that there remains a
professional power relationship since she may choose to apply at the company
in the future, but I doubt that has any practical or legal teeth. The same
could be true of all her potential future employers OR her future employees,
vendors, customers, etc...

So what he did was creepy and unprofessional, yes. But let's understand why
and to exactly what degree before deciding what the appropriate response
should be.

Personally, I would contact the HR department and inform them that I didn't
appreciate company employees using the contact details from my application to
solicit me for a date.

------
BadassFractal
I'd also add it's possible some of these men are desperate for a date, given
how hard it to get one in some areas of the country that are heavy in tech. He
knows he shouldn't, but he's desperate.

~~~
kelukelugames
This is why gender imbalance is bad for everyone involved. Not saying there
should be more women in tech so men can find dates. The point is being around
more women at work will help people learn what is socially appropriate.

------
timdaub
Since OP mentioned that the company in question is a startup which implies a
fair chance that they not yet have a HR department or that even some of the
founders took part in this sexist behavior, IMHO OP should not hesitate to
call out names (only the company's) as it seems it is the only way to punish
this behavior.

------
crimsonalucard
If the interviewee found him attractive would this be an issue for her? I
doubt it. Just say no and move on, don't do anything to aggravate the issue.

~~~
scott_s
Please don't propagate the myth that women only object to inappropriate
behavior from people they are not attracted to.

~~~
crimsonalucard
I'm propagating no such thing.

I'm saying the behavior would no longer be considered inappropriate if there
was mutual attraction. I sincerely believe this will still be the case even if
the genders are flipped.

~~~
scott_s
And _I 'm_ saying that saying such _is_ propagating that myth.

------
pfortuny
Just say NO.

------
mdnormy
The problem with deducting from one side of a story is you can't reach a
definitive conclusion. For example if you read the first 4 paragraph, that is
'the essence' of most interviews. Assuming it is, what the interviewer is
doing after, are inappropriate but "thanks, but no thanks" would be adequate
response in my opinion. People make dumb mistakes some time.

But if OP highly suspected that the interviewer does not intend to do proper
interview from the beginning and only interested to her personally, reporting
to HR is the only way to go.

------
AdmiralAsshat
Wasn't there some recent ruling that indicated interns and the like are not
protected from sexual harassment because they're not technically employees? I
feel like a prospective interviewee would fall under that same umbrella, and
hence a legal case would ultimately go nowhere. Not to mention that, as has
previously been mentioned on HN, HR is designed to protect the company from
you, not the other way around.

I'd bypass the legal system altogether (which increasingly seems designed to
protect this kind of atrocious behavior) and go straight to the media with it.
Public shaming unfortunately seems to be the only way to combat this.

------
MangoDiesel
Unfortunately, I think the best way (safest) to handle this as someone new out
of school without a network is to ignore it and move on to other potential
opportunities.

Most likely, this is an issue isolated to this one employee, who should have
his position of responsibility in the hiring process stripped, written up/
demotion, whatever tools are available to the company to _strongly_ reprimand
him.

There is a chance that this person (who has already shown to be outrageously
unprofessional) would retaliate. He has your resume which likely significant
personal information such as cell phone and address.

If you had a network, the best course of action would be to find someone you
trust who is connected to the CEO. Any CEO who is not breeding a malignant
culture would be absolutely appalled by this employee's actions. The CEO is
fortunate to have a female grad student from a top 3 school applying to work
at his/her company. Diversity is incredibly valuable to teams, and hi-jacking
the hiring process into a personal dating workflow displays such egregiously
bad judgement I would probably be personally offended as the CEO to the point
of firing the person.

~~~
pyrocat
Ignoring the problem is how we got into this situation in the first place.

