
The Awful Reign of the Red Delicious (2014) - Tomte
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/the-evil-reign-of-the-red-delicious/379892/?single_page=true
======
VLM
The article seems oriented toward raw consumption, I like to experiment with
food canning and I've made many single variety batches of applesauce to
experiment with. Pure grannies are a little acidic to me. My kids like red
delicious applesauce, for something thats basically sweet with a texture its
not bad. Ida Red results in an extremely pale nearly white applesauce which is
interesting looking but the taste is boring. I'd have to find my notes I've
experimented with most every variety at one time or another. Its a fun
relaxing hobby.

Something I like about home canning my own applesauce is bug-leg-free
applesauce is commercially unavailable in stores, its safe to eat buggy
applesauce but pretty gross once you have a source of bug-leg-free applesauce.
Also if you follow the USDA/BallBook you can't vary lemon content for food
safety reasons but you can vary cinnamon and its an eternal experiment to try
different ratios. Also there are USDA approved low/no sugar applesauce recipes
but in the store you can only buy corn syrup or artificial sweetener
applesauce.

Anyway to make a long story short, store applesauce is gross, few hobbies are
as delicious as home canning applesauce, and I've had "OK" results with red
delicious in applesauce form. Its not pure red evil or whatever as the article
claims.

Next story, lets debate Concord grapes, vs Flame seedless, in raw and home
canned jelly form.

~~~
cooperadymas
I've made apple sauce a few times for near-immediate consumption (over the
course of maybe a week). There is a big, notable difference in taste and
quality from the store-bought. Might be time to try canning it for longer term
consumption.

However, stores near here do carry a no sugar added bottle of applesauce.
That's all we ever buy, and I can't imagine why they would even consider
adding sugar/corn syrup. I like making it at home because I can play with the
tartness a little more by adding in some grannies, and I like to leave in the
skin for the added nutrients.

~~~
cmurf
Studies show that sugar and salt increase consumption. So they add these
things to increase sales. People aren't making a decision that's in their best
interest, this is a biological hack that favors one party disproportionately
compared to the other.

~~~
WillPostForFood
Sugar and salt make things taste better. Things that taste better also tend to
sell better. If you took all salt and sugar out of food, you'd certainly eat
and sell less, because it wouldn't taste good.

You can call it biohacking if you want, but it is no more so than when your
mom made you dinner.

~~~
pixl97
[http://www.popsci.com/high-salt-diets-might-make-you-
hungrie...](http://www.popsci.com/high-salt-diets-might-make-you-hungrier)

>The more salt you eat, the thirstier you get. Right? Wrong, according to two
studies released today in The Journal of Clinical Investigation. The research
found that as salt consumption increased, people actually drank less water.
And the high-salt diets seemed to make study subjects hungrier, too.

------
baldfat
I HATED Red Delicious as a kid!

Honey Crisp Apples are the best tasting apples I have ever eaten but they cost
almost triple the price. Pink Ladies are also phenomenal. My 6 and 10 year old
like them better then candy.

~~~
tetraodonpuffer
Fuji are also good, but yeah, honeycrisp are definitely the tastiest apple I
have ever eaten... I was brought up on galas and golden delicious and I had no
idea that apples could taste as good as a honeycrisp does

~~~
dbg31415
Local news to the rescue! (=

* Why Honeycrisp apples are so expensive - YouTube || [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4eQX2vZ_Zg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4eQX2vZ_Zg)

* The Story Behind Honeycrisps, America's First Brand-Name Apple || [http://www.esquire.com/food-drink/food/a20018/honeycrisp-pri...](http://www.esquire.com/food-drink/food/a20018/honeycrisp-price-explained/)

And look, hope for better apples on the horizon!

* Washington Apple Growers Sink Their Teeth Into The New Cosmic Crisp : The Salt : NPR || [http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/05/03/525421226/was...](http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/05/03/525421226/washington-apple-growers-sink-their-teeth-into-the-new-cosmic-crisp)

~~~
RangerScience
TL;DR on first link:

\- They're not hardy (trees need support, apples are thin skinned, and they
ripen at different times)

\- A university holds a patent on the tree (only $1 per tree, tho)

~~~
EdwardMSmith
The patent and the royalty on Honeycrisp expired in 2008.

~~~
jdietrich
The University of Michigan blundered by marketing the apple under the varietal
name; varietals are considered inherently generic under trademark rules and so
ineligible for protection.

A Pink Lady apple is actually a Cripps Pink, grown and picked in accordance
with certain quality standards. Anyone can sell a Cripps Pink, but only
licensees of Brandt's Fruit Trees Inc can sell a Pink Lady.

~~~
menssen
Alum here. Minnesota != Michigan. Boo.

Anecdotally, UMN has one of the best agriculture research programs in the
world, and it's entirely based around figuring out how to grow really anything
when first frost is early September (Minnesota).

------
dugmartin
I'm not an apple snob but if you have a chance (and live in the right
temperature zone) visit a local orchard and pick some random varieties to try.

Here is Western Massachusetts you can get Cortland, Macoun, Empire, Mutsu,
Spy, Spencer, Ida Reds, Paula Reds, Jersey Mac, Gravenstein, Redfree,
Gingergold, Suncrisp, Rom Beauty, Jonagold and (probably) hundreds of other
varieties. Some might be better for baking or cider but hey, maybe you'll like
them to eat in-hand.

Life is too short to eat crappy apples.

~~~
mistercow
I feel like apples are an appropriate thing to be a little bit snobby about.
There just really is a lot of difference between cultivars, and some of them
are legitimately gross.

I think it would be one thing to be a snob to the extent of "I'll only eat
this one cultivar from New Guinea which costs $30 apiece and must be ripened
individually under a swan's left wing", but it's another to say "I only care
for a few types of apple, and also screw the Red Delicious".

------
dhfhduk
I lived not too far from where Red Delicious was originally bred, and I can
say from personal experience the original Red Delicious is not the Red
Delicious that is typically sold in the grocery store.

Of course, I've never had the original one, but the heritage Red Delicious
apples from multiple small orchards within a certain radius of where it was
developed all taste totally unlike the ones in large groceries elsewhere in
the US.

The ones from Iowa you would probably recognize as Red Delicious if you were
told that, and if you were not told their identity you probably wouldn't.
They're much smaller, rounder, more variegated in color, and have a much more
complex flavor. Many people would probably guess McIntosh, but probably would
say they have no idea.

My experiences have left me with the strong impression that some kind of
subsequent genetic drift/inadvertent selection occurred, or that there's such
a dominant set of horticulture protocols with the apple that the original
characteristics of the apple have been washed out.

~~~
stouset
I don't think circumstances around your anecdote leave room for it to be
factual. "Red delicious" isn't simply a breed of apple — they're all
trademarked _clones_. The offspring of an apple tree won't produce anything
like the fruit of the original apple. In fact, the overwhelming majority will
be inedible and only suitable for cider. Genetic drift isn't really plausible
because there's no mechanism by which these trees would drift genetically.

New apple strains are, as far as I know, not really bred for. They're found in
the wild.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty confident that an apple that isn't a strict
clone of red delicious can't be marketed as a red delicious. It's also
possible that growing conditions now have changed enough to alter the fruit,
but I'm not positive that it would be a large enough difference to notice.

------
bsk26
We had a bunch of apple trees when I was a kid, including a red delicious tree
that was probably planted in the 1920s. Its apples were my favorite,
especially when they became crisp and sweet after a light frost. Perhaps store
bought red delicious suck but I think this hate is just misplaced elitism from
people who've never had one off the tree.

~~~
maxerickson
How is it elitism to say that the 99% of the variety that people actually eat
suck?

I would think the elitism is insisting that the only way to truly judge them
is straight off the tree (after a spell of opportunistic weather).

~~~
bsk26
I guess that's exactly why I thought it was a bit snobby ... internet folks
trashing the preferences of 99 percent of the population.

Having a tree is pretty hard where I live now but pretty normal back in the
Midwest.

~~~
wordupmaking
That makes it even more important to point it out. Most people would otherwise
have no clue there's anything to miss out on. As some people above said,
making their own apple sauce made "store bought inedible". The flip side of
that is, to make cheaply and badly mass produced things sell, people can't
know good things. Once stuff is gone and purged from the archives, it's gone.
The feelings of anyone who happens to be around currently, including
ourselves, are not even a matter compared to the dangers of that.

We can't remain at the point where our problems with coping with emotions
restrict our intellectual movements. This isn't asking anyone to run 50000
miles, or go a week without sleep or a year without food, it's just saying
"this thing you think is good is actually kind of shit, and if you knew this
actually good thing that would be immediately obvious to you, please don't die
now". And while most people (including me) can't have a tree, everybody but
the very poorest could save up some money to buy just one "real" apple to at
least confirm this. Or maybe buy two, and give one to a poor person, just so
they know how bad the apples they sometimes eat are. And then the question is
"what does this mean, how can this be improved", etc., and not "how do I live
with this blow to my ego". Please, don't take this as me being upset at your
comment at all, it triggered me, you could say. I read Fahrenheit 451 recently
and since then every HN discussion has aspects that remind me of it.

If people didn't personally identify so much with what they know and do etc.,
there wouldn't even be any hurt feelings to overcome, but I'm not even going
there. Let's assume it's real offensive to be corrected or put down a peg:
yes, and, so, what? That should motivate us to head off others at the pass,
and to smoothly inspect their lessons and take them on board without blinking
should they have merit, to become good at it, instead of attempting to ban it.

> internet folks trashing the preferences of 99 percent of the population

vs. article:

> His words contain the paradox of the Red Delicious: alluring yet
> undesirable, the most produced and arguably the least popular apple in the
> United States. It lurks in desolation. Bumped around the bottom of lunch
> bags as schoolchildren rummage for chips or shrink-wrapped Rice Krispies
> treats.

Maybe it's a bit rich coming from me after going on such tangents, but still,
it takes some mental gymnastics to turn complaints about "ramming [these
apples] down the throats of American consumers" into "being a snob for
thinking lowly of people for liking these apples so much". No, everybody would
be able to tell the huge difference, but as you said, most people don't get
the chance. That's the problem, not the solution.

------
orky56
I happen to like Red Delicious since they produce a satisfying crunch without
being tart (like green apples) or mushy (like gala). I'm surprised this
article is using a personal preference to criticize an entire variety and
industry.

~~~
cvwright
You need to try a Cortland. If only we could get them here on the West
Coast...

~~~
mfarris
YES. I grew up eating Cortlands in the midwest. Have never found one in the LA
area.

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
I was put off apples throughout childhood because of the taste of the Red
Delcious, my mother only bought those, and I only returned to apples after
working at a software company that supplied free apples (of various different
types). Until then I had not known how tasty apples could be, now I eat a
couple everyday.

------
Mathnerd314
Generally, you can rank apples based on fiber, sugar, and antioxidants.
[http://www.leonoredvorkin.com/henu/benapples.php](http://www.leonoredvorkin.com/henu/benapples.php)

Granny smith have more fiber: [https://olumialife.com/knowledge/are-granny-
smith-apples-the...](https://olumialife.com/knowledge/are-granny-smith-apples-
the-healthiest-apples-708) Red delicious (particularly the dark red) have more
antioxidants, although Granny smith is also high:
[http://www.healthextremist.com/comparing-apples-apples-
antio...](http://www.healthextremist.com/comparing-apples-apples-antioxidant-
levels/). Most of the antioxidants are in the skin, hence peeling / juicing
tends to reduce them. But of course the antioxidants are also the bitter
taste. Golden Delicious and a lot of others are high in sugar and not much
else, closer to candy in terms of food group:
[https://furthermore.equinox.com/articles/2013/10/apples](https://furthermore.equinox.com/articles/2013/10/apples)

Overall I just buy the cheap apples; the differences aren't significant except
to a connoisseur (easily adjusted for with supplements), and I prefer to spend
my money on startups.

~~~
maxerickson
Why would you rank them on anything other than taste and texture?

~~~
Mathnerd314
Because taste and texture are obsolete; they don't really affect the outcomes
of eating. Taste can be disguised with spices or condiments, and cooking and
food processors will produce an edible texture out of almost anything.
Nutritional variables are unaffected by these modifications, hence measure
more of the underlying reality.

~~~
maxerickson
Cooking has a huge impact on nutrition.

The health impacts of antioxidants are also not well established.

I guess there is a pretty good argument for not eating lots of a sweet variety
(but 1 a day is meh).

------
tboyd47
The most interesting part of this article is the last bit about China. It
reminded me of an earlier article I saw on HN concerning the Asian market for
wild ginkgo harvested in Appalachia.

It's becoming clear Chinese and American consumer behavior concerning food are
vastly different from one another, and globalization has not eliminated all of
those differences. Food is still one of America's biggest exports, so there
may be a lot of undiscovered opportunities here for smart entrepreneurs in the
food manufacturing industry to take advantage of these differences.

Politicians can create and trade restrictions and tax breaks, but they can't
wave a magic wand and move consumer markets around more to their liking. The
presence or absence of a market is what decides the viability of a business.
Either the market's there or it's not.

------
tmnvix
Are braeburn apples available in the US?

I agree that red delicious are terrible eating apples but most of the newer
varieties seem to be a bit on the sweet side for my liking. Braeburn has the
perfect balance of tart and sweet while being consistently crisp.

~~~
maxerickson
Yes, the apples of the damned are available here.

(I think of them as consistently and impressively mealy)

~~~
cvwright
Yes Braeburns are mealy. Cortlands are what you are looking for -- very crisp,
with just the right mix of tart and sweet.

------
torrent-of-ions
Red Delicious are very sweet without much actual flavour. Granny Smiths are
very tart and I can't understand why people actually like them (I have a
theory it's because they consider them medicine rather than something to
actually enjoy). I do like to use Granny Smith's for cooking, though. They are
very flavourful and don't break down, but I add extra sugar, of course.

Cox's Orange Pippin is surely the ideal eating apple. A wonderful, complex
flavour without being too sweet or too tart and it has an almost non-existent
core. The seeds seem to just rattle around in there.

~~~
placeybordeaux
I like granny smiths for the same reason I like sour candy.

------
Yizahi
I like these ones -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Transparent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Transparent)
Unfortunately they are hard to come by even locally in ex-USSR because they
are extremely fragile and no market want to handle their transportation or
storage.

If you'll ever visit ex-USSR in late summer or early autumn ask for "byeliy
naliv" apples (meaning something like "white shine"). They are green to white
in color (more white as they are more ripe) and not very hard when ripe.

------
Pxtl
So, since it's spring - what's the good apples that are ripe first? Because
basically I only buy Galas rather than figure out the complicated list of
apples that are good for each season.

------
artmageddon
I never thought my taste for red delicious apples were something I'd have to
feel about the way people did about eating McDonald's(I mean obv they're
different, but..)

------
ktRolster
Red Delicious apples actually taste really good if you can find a ripe one.
It's picking them before they are ripe that gives them the bad taste.

Same thing with mangoes you find in the store.

------
patorjk
Interesting read, I have always preferred green apples to red apples. I even
distinctly remember a day in kindergarten where we did a taste test - almost
everyone in the class picked the green apples. I had never really understood
why red apples were so popular, I hadn't realized there was a dominant type of
red apple or what it's backstory was. I'll have to try a Honey Crisp or Gala
next time I'm at the supermarket.

~~~
finnh
Fujis are also delicious, and very widely available.

~~~
maxerickson
My experience in recent times has been that Gala are a lot more reliable than
Fuji.

------
gammarator
For my money the best (somewhat) widely available apple for eating out of hand
is the Ambrosia. Sweet, crisp, attractive in shape and appearance.

As production has increased I have noticed an uptick in mealy Ambrosias, but
they can usually be identified by a slight softness.

[https://www.orangepippin.com/apples/ambrosia](https://www.orangepippin.com/apples/ambrosia)

------
artursapek
My son and I have settled on Gala and Fuji as our go-tos are the farmers
market. I actually arrived at the same conclusion as this article about "Red
Delicious" \- it certainly is red and that's the most that can be said of it.

~~~
logfromblammo
Red Delicious are absolutely the best apples for throwing at your enemies.
They are also the best fruit to be stacked on a cart and driven through during
the car chase scene of an action movie. They are also quite useful for making
your business look like it has made a token effort towards providing fruits
and vegetables for customers.

They are certainly poorly suited for actual _eating_.

Fujis have a good taste/price ratio, making them my default value option.
Honeycrisps are great, but currently rather expensive. Hopefully that price
can come down as more Red Delicious orchards are demolished and replaced.

The most bizarre part of the article is where it says people buy Red Delicious
and just throw them away. While that would be insane for private residences,
the Red Delicious is somewhat of a symbolic icon for "fruit". If you manage a
convenience store, truck stop, or hotel breakfast nook, you can buy one Red
Delicious and keep it around for a few months, secure in the knowledge that no
one will be foolish enough to eat it. And the whole time it is not being
eaten, you can advertise that you offer "fresh fruit".

Just look at your fruit at home. All that stuff gets eaten and replaced. If
you go out on the road, the standard fruit basket becomes Red Delicious
apples, small, hard oranges, and bananas--literally the three cheapest fruits
you can buy in any grocery store. And the apples might as well be wooden
apples, painted red, because when the bananas and oranges go, they remain.

------
minikomi
Growing up in Australia, all I ever ate were Jonathans.. couldn't stand the
mushiness of "delicious" varieties.

------
sov
Jonagold Large are the kings of the apple section

~~~
washadjeffmad
I buy a bushel of Jonagolds and two or three others each year (varieties
depend on crop), and they're great for cooking or eating. I make around three
gallons of apple butter and a gallon or two of spiced cider total, and I still
have enough for at least two five pound pies and some for eating. Nice, firm
apples that don't break down too readily when cooked and with a pleasant
tartness.

I buy honeycrisps by the peck for eating, and I've tried cooking with mutsus,
detroit reds, and september wonders, and few others, but jonathans and
jonagolds have proven themselves staple worthy in my kitchen.

------
syphilis2
Red Delicious apples are also $1/lb at the grocery store, while other
varieties are $1.67/lb to $3/lb.

------
cmurf
Empire are awesome. My 2nd tier are Cortland, and Macoun. All three have
McIntosh in common.

------
EugeneOZ
Maybe in Europe Red Delicious is different, but I like it so much, hehe :)

------
alberto_ol
previous submission
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8300619](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8300619)

------
seppin
the Red Delicious in Latin America are fantastic

------
throw7
they didn't list my goto: Empire apples!

------
JustSomeNobody
Red Delicious apples are horrible. Pink Ladies if you can find them,
Honeycrisp if you can't.

~~~
aetherson
I don't really get the love for Honeycrisps. I mean, they're better than Red
Deliciouses, sure. But they're still too... blandly sweet, I guess, for my
tastes. I like Pink Ladies, and I like Granny Smiths. That sharper, more
acidic taste, I suppose.

~~~
BenjiWiebe
Funny. The Honey Crisps I have had I would never have thought of as "blandly
sweet". They were tangy and delicious.

Reading these comments, though, does make me want to try Pink Ladies.

~~~
twothamendment
Yes, I'm hungry for an apple now, maybe a few if there were several to pick
from!

------
psyc
Huh. I guess there are people who moralize about apple varieties.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Lamenting that a clearly inferior product dominates a market is not
"moralizing".

~~~
rdiddly
Yeah but to use a word like "lament" or "inferior" you're kind of already
moralizing.

~~~
finnh
We can exercise our critical faculties without moralizing.

