
Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden - winta
http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/jun/09/a-migrants-journey-from-syria-to-sweden-interactive
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JesperRavn
It's unfortunate to me that it is impossible to have a discussion about how
this kind of immigration dilutes European culture and identity. The prime
minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, said[0]

 _If we don 't stop their entry, the problem that currently stands at 60,000
could grow to 600,000, and that threatens our existence as a Jewish and
democratic state ... This phenomenon is very grave and threatens the social
fabric of society, our national security and our national identity._

While he has come under _some_ criticism for these statements, can you imagine
what would happen if a European prime minister made this kind of statement?

[0] [http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/20/israel-
netanyah...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/20/israel-netanyahu-
african-immigrants-jewish)

~~~
nsns

        "dilutes European culture and identity"
    

But how could these be diluted? Do you perhaps mean "change", "expand", "put
into question"? And is it more important to save those fleeing for their lives
or your sense of "undiluted" identity? (Moreover, an identity historically
forged through their exploitation.)

The prime minister of Israel should be reminded that Israel was created as a
sanctuary for his people fleeing those exact völkisch sentiments he now
preaches. I know from personal experience that there are many Israelis who
share this view and are appalled by his words [0].

[0] [http://972mag.com/special/aslyum-
seekers-2/](http://972mag.com/special/aslyum-seekers-2/)

~~~
bayesianhorse
Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All
this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous. If at all, Muslim immigrants feel
diluted.

And I am not denying that European societies have disproportionately many
problems with Muslim immigrants. But we can't do anything about it without
violating what we believe is a just society: No human should be punished for
crimes another human committed. That holds even when both are muslim.

~~~
lllllll
>> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture.
All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous

Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas
where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani. I mean, that seems to me like
some influence. The fact that such a huge number of people with Muslim
background relocate to an area, is clearly a cause for the rise in Muslim-
owned Muslim-oriented businesses. But hey! I'm not saying that's necessarily a
good or bad thing, I just disagree with what you said. And the way streets
look/feel when you walk down them is a great example of how Muslim(and other
immigrants also ofc!) do have an influence on the culture and lifestyle in
Europe.

>> But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a
just society

I agree with that, refugees must be granted asylum in countries at peace.
However, we must be aware that this is NOT addressing the problem itself, but
its consequences; and hence the problem can only grow bigger.

~~~
bayesianhorse
For me, opening ethnically themed restaurants and food joints does not count
as "influence of islam". At best it is an economic contribution of people who
happen to be muslim.

Mosques are very underrepresented, considering the number of muslim, and they
have to fight for every single one.

Walking on the street is no influence on Culture. Even a fully cloaked woman
does not hinder my sense of European culture. They don't make anyone else
follow their rules, in any case.

I'm not aware of islamic parties with any significant influence, at least in
western Europe, despite I would think there is a need for one.

There is currently no way to solve the multiple crisis which are displacing
people. At least not without actually displacing much more people.

~~~
lllllll
IMO a culture is not just a set of protocols or rules written down by some
chronist/sociologist. To me culture is more about how people live in a certain
place, their routines, their customs.

Again, I'm not particularly talking about Muslim population, but since you
continue with them, I will do the same :) (I guess it's an easy example since
they are really a big community all around EU)

Now take any East London borough with a high % of Muslim. If you compare it
with how it was let's say in the 80's you will probably see several
differences in: the language most people talk to each other in, the way kids
are educated at home, the way people interact with their local store owners,
the food people eat, dress codes, etc.

If a person from a distant remote place visits that same borough in the 80's
and today he will see two culturally different places. That's because the
inhabitants of the place, make the culture. That's my view!

This reply is just intended to challenge your view that big numbers of
immigrants has no influence on the culture of a country/city/place/population.
I'm not implying that borough was better in the 80's than now!

>>Mosques are very underrepresented, considering the number of muslim, and
they have to fight for every single one.

I really don't know where you draw the "fair representation" line. E.g.
Greater London has 650k Muslims, and around 411 mosques. That's roughly 1400
Muslims/mosque. What would be a fair representation in your opinion? In
contrast there are 450k Hindus in Greater London, and I couldn't find the
number of temples in any source, but I'd guess it's around a few tens. Maybe
this is an unfair comparison since a temple is much more of a requirement for
Muslims than for Hindus, I really don't know that.

>> They don't make anyone else follow their rules, in any case.

They raise their kids with "their" rules, which is not even theirs, it's
basically dictated by some kind of dogma. These kids will be the future
generation of that place.

~~~
bayesianhorse
My statement was that "Islam" has virtually no influence on Europe culture.
First of all, that doesn't include everything a Muslim does, for me, Islam is
a religion with values and rules.

The mere existence of Muslims following their own cultures in Europe does not
constitute an influence in its own. Not even when they interact with other
Europeans. Influence on European Culture would mean that Europeans change to
adapt to Islamic beliefs. Which they largely don't, except sometimes in very
negative ways.

You probably overestimate population trends... Yes, the Muslim population will
increase, but not without bounds and much less than some people seem to
believe...

~~~
lllllll
It seems to me that you have not read my answer at all...You don't address any
of my points/questions either.

Also, I do not estimate any trend, so technically I can't _overestimate_...

~~~
bayesianhorse
because you didn't consider my statement. Specifically "Islam" instead of
"individual Muslim" and "on European Culture", not that Muslims exist in
Europe.

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lllllll
I believe refugees are mostly people in need that don't deserve the situation
they find themselves in and should be given asylum in countries which are
stable and at peace.

However, my impression is that they mostly request asylum in Western countries
(EU, Australia, USA, UK, Canada...). Assuming my impression is right (correct
me otherwise!). Why is it like that?

In the case of Muslim refugees, why don't they apply for asylum to Muslim
countries, particularly those unbelievably oil-rich countries ( or even some
more stable ones like Morocco for example), instead of some poor countries in
the West such as Greece/Italy/Spain?

~~~
cyorir
Most refugees from Syria have ended up in camps in Turkey, Lebanon, and
Jordan, not Western countries. Life in these camps is not especially good
compared to asylum in Western countries with infrastructure for accepting
migrants such as Germany; however, getting asylum in these countries is more
difficult.

As for Greece, the migrants who end up there probably weren't looking at
Greece as a final destination, but as a stepping stone for better destinations
in Europe.

~~~
lllllll
>> Life in these camps is not especially good compared to asylum in Western
countries

That's exactly one of my concerns here. Why doesn't for example Jordan just
let them assimilate in their society, as fellow Arabs, and instead it just
keeps them in camps? Of course not _just_ Jordan, but also other more
resourceful Arab/Muslim (mostly Sunni Muslim) countries such as UAE, Qatar,
etc.

Wouldn't it be easier for these already traumatized refugees to integrate in
Moroccan, Tunisian, Egyptian, Jordanian, Saudi Arabian, UAE-
ian(?)...societies? Isn't there a "brotherhood" thing between Arabs (maybe
even between Muslims? or just Sunni Muslims?)?

~~~
jpatokal
You're picking on the wrong country here: Jordan is the _only_ country in the
Middle East that has pretty much entirely naturalized its Palestinian
refugees, who (depending on where you draw the line) make up over half the
population. The vast majority of the people living in refugee camps are
Jordanian citizens, and the "camps" have long since turned into permanent (if
often crappy) housing.

As for why the rest don't, one answer is that the other countries don't have
to, so they don't give a fuck; and even more cynically, by keeping the
festering sore open, they can deflect public attention from their various
problems and instead blame Israel for it all.

~~~
lllllll
That's true, though I was talking about Syrian refugees.

I picked Jordan because it's just a neighbouring Arab country, plus mostly
Sunni Muslim, just like Syria, and unlike Lebanon. And of course the
Palestinian refugee issue is another topic entirely.

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mynameishere
Such stark madness in the Western world. Sweden has no responsibility towards
Syria. None. None at all, and there is no arguing otherwise. The grandchildren
of today's rulers will either curse them, or simply not exist. It depends on
how fast said rulers can wipe out the native populations.

And yes, it can happen--in fact, it _is_ happening right now, and far faster
than it happened to the Indigenous Americans.

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return0
The last civil wars in europe were 30-50 years ago. Back then moving between
borders wasn't as easy. There were big movements of immigrants in europe ,
mainly to germany, but this is different. It seems people affected from war
take immigration as the first option now, which leaves their countries even
more devastated. Also, most of them seem to have no interest in ever going
back making it even worse. Given that europe is not exactly flourishing, so it
can provide jobs to those immigrants, it seems an interventive strategy would
be a better idea.

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rasputhin
Such a sharp contrast in nearly every aspect of life. Thanks for sharing the
link.

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HelloThereHuman
Wow... as a swede, this was a bit surreal to read. Wonderful piece, what a
story.

~~~
return0
Is Sweden really unconditionally giving asylum to everyone who is from syria?

~~~
HelloThereHuman
This will explain things for you:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_QrIapiNOw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_QrIapiNOw)

