
The Used TV Price Is Too Damn High - omarish
http://priceonomics.com/televisions/#television-prices
======
ken
TV model numbers are, I've heard, intentionally screwy.

I have a model number that ends in "-1" which I bought from a warehouse store,
and this model was only ever sold to a particular chain of warehouse stores.
The original model (which you'll find if you look up reviews on the web, or on
Amazon) has the same number but ending in "-0", and the only difference is
that they traded its second component input for another HDMI input --
something which 99% of people, myself included, will never care about.

The reason, they say, is so the big chains can advertise "Guaranteed lowest
price!". Nobody else can stock exactly the same model number, so it's
technically true, even though it's not uncommon for the almost-identical model
to be cheaper elsewhere.

~~~
FiddlerClamp
Just like mattresses. Each store will have its own mattress model number.

In Canada it's even worse, because we'll get C or CA as suffixes for products,
and sometimes even BL for bilingual - making it near impossible to find
reviews online.

~~~
liber8
The mattress retailers have the best scam going. Nobody carries the same
models [edit: or more precisely, each retailer gives each mattress a unique
model name], and even the manufacturers websites don't list most of the model
names or make them easily identifiable (and the manufacturer's websites
certainly don't display prices). This, and the limited number of
independently-owned retailers, makes the markups pretty surreal.[1] Let's just
say if you're not negotiating 50% off, you're probably getting soaked.

It's similar to the way car buying was 20 or 30 years ago, when nobody really
knew what invoice prices were. I see a huge potential to disrupt this market.

[1]I recently went mattress shopping again. During the "Memorial Day Sales
Event", sticker prices (even after the "$XXX dollars off!!") were at least 10%
over the MSRP displayed in the store's computer. I had no trouble negotiating
50% off the sticker price, plus tons of extras.

~~~
TwoBit
FWIW, from a comparison shopping perspective, it actually is possible to
compare mattresses. Each brand has families that are equivalent in the various
stores. The store can admit to the equivalency (which the stores I worked with
did) or they can risk losing a sale.

~~~
liber8
Yep, I had the salesperson do this. But, it required me taking a picture of
Store A's display so that the Store B salesperson could compare the specs and
figure out which one of their models it matched. Ridiculous.

It would be difficult (but definitely not impossible) to aggregate the specs
of each mattress so you could compare models/prices online. Then you might
actually get some competitors entering the market. (Here in southern CA, there
are essentially two places to try/buy a variety of mattresses: Sears, and
several mattress-specific stores, which are all owned by the same owner. You
essentially have two choices, though choice B has a few different names.)

------
jlongster
The problem is that people _will_ buy the overpriced used TV. Honestly, I sold
my 4 year old 720p for $300 last fall and went out and bought a brand new
1080p for $350! I couldn't believe it. But if people will buy, the price isn't
going to change.

~~~
tomkarlo
Same here. I was able to sell a 5 year-old, 42" LCD TV with no table stand
(only good for wall mounting) along with its wall bracket for $350 earlier
this year. Given that there's no fee for listing on Craigslist, I just put the
highest price I could think of on it and kept posting it until I had a buyer
(it only took two weeks.) Granted, it was $1500 when I bought it, but 1080 LCD
TVs were at a huge premium back in 2007 and this thing was just taking up
space in a crate in my apartment, depreciating.

My only explanation for why someone would buy that price was that they 1.)
appreciated the quality of that model versus lower-priced generic new units
and 2.) they would have to pay another 10% in state sales tax if they went to
a store, which increases the effective discount for buying used from a private
party.

~~~
seunosewa
The second reason sounds much more compelling.

~~~
its_so_on
To me, the first reason sounds more compelling. Honestly, I'd rather use a
core2 era macbook pro that was top of the line then than a $350 corei3 dell
laptop that is bottom of the line now.

~~~
pbreit
You cannot compare Apple products to commodity TVs.

~~~
excuse-me
No that was his point. A 1080p TV from 2007 was probably a Sony class product,
I would rather buy that for $300 than a 'new' no-name 1080p TV for $350.

Similarly I would buy a 2007 Macbook for $500 rather than a new $500 Walmart
laptop.

~~~
pbreit
If that was his point, it was poorly made. My point was that Apple products
are in a class by themselves and not a useful comparable in this discussion.
Not even Sony TVs are in that class (not that they were mentioned).

~~~
tomflack
I think the illustration of the idea is spot on and you're simply wrong.

~~~
pbreit
The peson was trying to compare a tv comparison to an Apple/non-Apple
comparison. I stand firmly by my contention that that is not a good comparison
because Apple products are in a class essentially by themselves (not even
approached by Sony TVs). The illustration is weak at best.

The illustration is even more non-sensical since it specifies a top-of-the-
line Mac with a bottom of the line no-name.

Spot-on, huh?

~~~
tomflack
I still maintain it works perfectly. You're getting too hung-up on where you
rank each brand.

~~~
pbreit
No, there's apple and everyone else. Favoring an old Mac makes sense. Favoring
an old Sony tv does not.

~~~
tomflack
Wow. You're either being intentionally obtuse or you have no hope of
understanding this. But we'll go through it one more time.

A second-hand Sony television is often higher quality than a brand-new generic
manufacturer's TV. In the same vein, a second-hand Macintosh is often higher
quality than a brand-new generic manufacturer's computer.

Nobody cares how highly you rank Apple. Their specific quality is irrelevant
to the comparison.

------
jisaacstone
OK so this chart really bugs me:

<https://s3.amazonaws.com/pix-media/TV+Categories.png>

Why is the bottom line 8%? and why are the y-axis lines ate 8% intervals? No
reason I can see.

Is it not obvious that starting at 0 and using intervals of 5 or 10 makes it
easier for people to grasp the relevant information clearly?

</rant>

~~~
mtigas
It's still a regular linearly-scaled chart, so I don't think it's _too_
confusing.

Funny enough, I plugged this into Google Docs to see if I could re-scale to
give you a comparison of the given chart vs a 0-based, 5-unit-interval chart
and it looks like that's actually what they used to generate the chart.

[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag2TNlAslc4GdFd...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag2TNlAslc4GdFdDaWtlNVpZajRWR0Z0LTRMN2ZYUEE)

Apparently the automatic scaling gives you the 8-based scale you see in their
post. (And apparently _you can't manually re-scale a Google Docs chart_.)
Using "stack" mode (I don't actually know what this option does for a single-
series chart like this) gives you a 0-based, 10-unit-interval chart. (Again,
not sure if you can adjust this to _any_ other unit-scale.)

Slightly different scale, but I don't think it's a significant difference
(though the "television" portion does appear slightly smaller in the automatic
scale).

Charts like these are _always_ susceptible to scale-skew and perception, and
even simple charts (like this) can be debated on those subjective measures.

------
jrockway
This is my experience with pretty much all used goods in general. Every day I
see some post like, "I bought a bike computer last year and lost all the
parts. It cost $250 so I'm going to sell it for $249 because of the missing
parts. Any takers?"

Nope. I'd take it for $30, though, if you really want to get rid of it.

------
nostromo
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_effect> \- things seem more valuable
when they're yours.

Regarding the two examples given (<https://s3.amazonaws.com/pix-
media/TV+Categories.png>): used headphones are icky and cellphones are
distorted by cell phone plans that hide their real cost.

~~~
cheeze
It really depends. A good pair of headphones can be had for big discounts
used. For in ear headphones, you can usually buy replacement ear pads and for
over ear, you can often replace the foam that goes over your ear. I would
never buy a lower quality pair, but I've bought a few different high end
headphones that I scored on.

------
rmATinnovafy
The mundane television set has changed. No longer is it a thing to watch some
movie in it.It is now a gadget that either adds or substracts to your social
standing. Just like Apple did with the i-line of gadgets. TV makers are doing
it as well.

Your TV doesn't have those little side-lights to add "ambiance"? You are
behind. Buy a better one. It doesn't have that Symphony remote control with
the little color LCD at the top? Ditto. Wait, you mean your TV is not 3D? Or
that it doesn't have internet access to watch Netflix? Ditto, Ditto.

That is why the TV prices are so high. They are now a status symbol. The same
way people trade-up their cell new cell phones for the newest model, people
trade up their new TVs.

The price problem is a direct effect of this.Most people need to re-coup the
cost of buying the high-end TV to buy another one.So they don't budge on the
selling price. They keep it high to lower the amount of money needed to buy
the other TV.As a result they create a niche market with its own social
standing phenomenon.You see people bragging about paying high prices for an
used TV, They might say "But its the XCVFRHTH-1234-TV with a digital remote,
and dual LED Ambiance lights".

So, in summary, its not that the TV prices are high. Is that people cannot
afford the latest gadget, and need to re-coup their money in some way. There
is a a sub market of people who cant dream of buying the TV new, but can
scrounge up the money to buy it used. And so, the circle of TVs keeps on
going.

It does not happen to phones, because everything looks like an i-phone these
days. But you can't confuse an Sony high end TV with one made my Emerson.

Same with cars, tools, bycicles...

~~~
MartinCron
What a relief that I haven't even noticed this status symbol pressure and that
I'm perfectly happy to roll with my ancient TV from 4 years ago.

~~~
rmATinnovafy
The only TV I have is about 12 years old.

~~~
cocoflunchy
I don't have a TV.

~~~
theorique
Are you this guy? [http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-constantly-
mention...](http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-constantly-mentioning-
he-doesnt-own-a-tel,429/)

------
ShabbyDoo
It amazes me how many people will list something for sale on Craigslist
without publishing obvious facts like model numbers. There's an upside if you
a buyer who compares your price for the used item with the price for a new-
but-superior item. However, the downside risk of wasting your time with people
who walk away once learning the details of the item seems to outweigh this
benefit.

Perhaps the greatest downside is that people like me will determine that the
person selling the item is an idiot and apply a discount factor for the risk
of even dealing with them.

~~~
acgourley
This might hint at one reason CraigsList still exists as it does. There is
powerful signaling built into how people make their listing. It conveys a lot
about who the seller is and how the transaction will work.

~~~
ShabbyDoo
Some friends who are using OkCupid say that their potential date's use of
proper grammar is one of the best predictors of compatibility and that this
signal is surprisingly hard to fake, especially in mail exchanges (vs.
profiles which could be wordsmithed by a friend).

I'd never thought about the idea that a "better" designed for-sale site where
users would be lead toward creating a proper listing would actually provide
worse subjective predictors.

------
midas
It's amazing how much cheaper new TVs are getting, it's one tiny indicator of
how much the quality of our lives (or at least or technology) is improving.

~~~
ctdonath
Also amazing how the value of our possessions is plummeting. There is very
little one can buy which will hold value to any meaningful degree, much less
appreciate in value.

~~~
derleth
Have the things people buy most _ever_ been the things that appreciate in
value? Antiques derive their value from rarity, implying that most examples
weren't good enough to survive. It's the "Old buildings were all well-made"
fallacy.

~~~
Retric
That's part of it, but people also used to make a lot less stuff. The half
life of a dresser made in 1850 might be ~50 years, but they did not make a lot
of them.

PS: It's hard to know, but I have heard it suggested that something like 10%
of all dressers made in 1850 are probably still around somewhere.

------
wildermuthn
Actually, Goodwill sells used TVs for about $50 or less. Seriously. Go try
shopping where poor people do.

~~~
ShabbyDoo
Flat panel HDTVs? I've seen plenty of good-as-new CRT TVs there -- right
beside the perfectly good VCRs, record players, tape decks, and non-surround
receivers.

~~~
JoachimSchipper
Is a flat panel HDTV worth $300 more than an "old" TV? Sensible people can
answer "no" to that.

~~~
aqme28
That's a nonsensical question. Some sensible people will say no, but some
sensible people will say yes. If your free time revolves around television and
you make too much money, what's wrong with dropping an extra $300?

------
jusben1369
So, this is really a symptom of a much more interesting effect. What happens
when established markets suddenly experience dramatic change? A good example
is the used car market. Post 2008 meltdown leasing and buying new dropped
dramatically. The recession also convinced people to buy used rather than new.
Given the normal 3 year lease by 2011 there was a dearth of used cars yet due
to the recession still a strong demand for used cars. Many people began
grossly overpaying for used cars relative to new cars. It's one of the factors
highlighted in the rebound of this years new auto sales - buyers began
connecting the dots.

TV's are less of a supply and more of a price issue but it's still the same
thing. A dramatic external shock hasn't flowed through the market yet. BTW,
TV's make for horrible landfill so either way use that TV as long as you can.

------
jonbwhite
I imagine the same would be true for laptops then, but it doesn't appear to
be. I guess people are just more used to the falling prices of computers than
they are for TVs.

------
joelhaasnoot
It's interesting - on the Dutch eBay site (Marktplaats, has a craiglist type
model), there actually really is a price point /alternate economy for most
types of goods. The great deals are when people don't know what they're
selling, but most sellers will either have a idea of what they think it's
worth (too high) or will look at other listings and come to a similar price.
It especially works on items like phones which have a relatively high supply.

------
leeoniya
"The Human Mind Cannot Comprehend How Quickly Prices Fall"

heh, i thought this immediately after reading the intro.

the problem stems from the fact that the LCD market is still not at an
equilibrium despite the apparent proliferation of large, flat displays. once
it becomes a commodity, the prices will level off for each screen size and
there will be much less variance and fluctuation in prices over time and much
more predictable depreciation rates.

~~~
icefox
Anyone know of a graph of the LCD price / sq inch over time? How fast is it
falling?

------
J0415
I think its due to the perception that TVs work for a long time without
failure, and hence hold their value since they can still be used for many
years to come.

------
FiddlerClamp
I'm surprised they didn't also cover PCs. That's another area in classified
ads where people can't believe that prices have already dropped for your PC
once you have paid for it and put it in the trunk.

Those who are unclear about brand/model names (and I see a lot of those,
especially with lesser Android tablets) provide two benefits: 1) It makes it
easier for those of us in the know to write detailed ads and sell our stuff,
and 2) It acts as a filter when searching for TVs, etc. I'd rather buy a
gadget from someone who knows the specs than someone who just posts "TV for
sale."

~~~
icefox
For the last half a decade I have been buying mac hardware. Even when I run
linux on it I know that I can at any time get rid of it on the used market and
get an insane price back. Compared to any PC, even when I would hand build
them the value drop just to my house was always more than I imagined. Last
year I was looking to maybe build a PC, looking on craigslist almost every
listing was more expensive than if I bought the parts from newegg brand new.

------
jarek
For a post openly inviting HN comments, <https://s3.amazonaws.com/pix-
media/TV+Categories.png> is an astoundingly bad chart.

~~~
sp332
Aside from starting at 8% instead of 0, what else is wrong with it?

~~~
mooism2
The y axis increments by 8%, instead of by a round number (10% would be
better).

~~~
sltkr
2³ is a perfectly round number to me.

~~~
jarek
But 2^3 * 10^-2 seems a little arbitrary in terms of bases.

------
ShabbyDoo
A month or so ago, I shopped on Craigslist for a used 42"-ish TV. As the
article states, people wanted way too much for them and didn't state specific
model numbers. I ended up buying a low-end new TV with some stacked-up
promotions as suggested by a Slickdeals.net commenter.

------
sp332
I charged about the same as the "new" price for my TV (which was about half
what I paid for it), because it was better. The old one supports more video
formats, has better color and nicer speakers than the model that was supposed
to replace it.

------
mmccomb
Would bulk be a factor here?

As the size of the consumable increases so does it's shipping cost and
difficulty. Which in turn might imply that fewer people would buy a TV online,
than say a piece of clothing or a DVD. This is turn would force consumers to
overpay for their TVs, not many high street shops can compete on price. This
inflated price is in turn passed on to the 2nd hand buyer when the original
purcahser experiences regret for the high price they paid.

Then again, I could be completely wrong.

------
devmach
Irrelevant fun fact : In germany, if you have tv you have to pay yearly ~271$
as a tax ( and it doesn't matter if it's 50000$ super hd 3d or ~30$ old crt )

------
tomerv
As someone who lives outside of the US (I live in Israel), I would very much
like to buy a new 32" LCD TV for $200. Too bad it's about $400 here.

~~~
GFischer
Wait one or two more years :) .

Here in Uruguay no-brand LCD TVs are getting to U$ 300, they were U$ 600 last
year (LED TVs pushed them downwards). Branded ones are still U$ 500 and
upwards.

It's still surprising how expensive they are to you (I always thought Uruguay
was the most expensive country on earth, with our 100% import tax and 22%
VAT).

------
jpdoctor
This very much applies to housing as well. The number of people whose houses
are listed for more than 6 months has to be a record high.

~~~
Domenic_S
This is a function of a few things. Here are a couple reasons that happens:

-Their mortgage is close to underwater. They have to sell at an objectively high price to get out.

-They're trying to short sell under an agreement with their bank. They price it intentionally high to keep it from selling.

~~~
jpdoctor
Sure, but there is a third reason: People have a very tough time admitting a
loss. And it's not like those prices are going to come back in our lifetimes
(if you're on the coast).

------
lowlevel
A kink in this story, is that about 6 months ago, some TV prices were
discounted between $150 and $200, and 'new' prices are higher now.

------
rograndom
I'm not sure if it's unique to my area, but I've found the same issue with
computers on CL.

I work with quite a few non-profits and they're always looking for newer
computers to replace their aging or outright broken P3 era machines running XP
or even 98.

I have a few RSS feeds for about a 35 mile radius and 95% of the listing are
some crap machine with a Celeron-D or Sempron. "Top of the line! Bought at
Walmart 4 years ago for $800, selling for $500 FIRM. Has blue screen on
startup, but it should be a simple fix."

Every 5-6 months or so something worthwhile like a P4 w/ HT or a C2D with a
dead HD will show up for $30-50.

------
otterley
Taken in the aggregate, the findings are probably true. However, some
particular models can command a high resale value because they have
particularly unique features. My Samsung TV, for example, is one of the few
models made that has an antiglare screen.

To my knowledge Samsung no longer manufactures flat-panel HD sets with
antiglare screens, so I would expect to sell it at a premium.

------
josefresco
Doesn't Amazon already have a marketplace for used items? I've used it in
fact, works pretty great.

------
acgourley
I've certainly noticed this myself. I always assumed it was because people
overpaid originally. Paying sales tax, not buying on a deep sale, etc. Then I
come along and use deal shopping tools which pick out TVs on websites that
skirt local taxes.

------
greedo
I'd love to see priceonomics tackle the Apple resale effect. I love it because
it makes upgrading more affordable, but it seems a bit screwy at times.

------
raverbashing
Very interesting article

And they finish up saying "The used TV market is broken"

But actually I would say: "the TV market is broken"

One could say the price reductions are due to less demand (computers,
internet, etc), or maybe because of improving technology

But really something that falls in value so fast has of course a value for the
user (watching TV) but not a "market value"

Tvs are (more or less) fungible, there's basically no incentive of getting the
latest model and if it breaks you just get another one.

So it's actually worse than the car market in some ways

------
lifeisstillgood
Isn't this the equivalent of buying an expensive frame for a cheap painting?

We buy expensive TVs to look at because the stuff on the TV channel is just
rubbish.

"of course Simon Cowell's insights into modern pop industry are worth watching
Pop Idols got American Talent for - I mean I paid more for that TV than my
car..."

------
DigitalSea
Used refrigerator and washing machine prices are quite high as well.

------
89a
EWWW people buy used headphones?

~~~
jrockway
Yes. The parts that touch you are trivial to clean or replace.

~~~
steveh73
Assuming you can find somewhere that sells the parts.

------
jonniekang
I love priceonomics detailed analysis!

------
silentscope
Sorry guys, but I smell a need for an editor. You could have explained your
whole post in one paragraph.

And now for downvotes...

------
sixQuarks
Why does Priceonomics posts always make it to the front page of Hacker News?
The stories are interesting, but not THAT interesting. Seems like there's some
gaming going on here.

~~~
pg
There are no signs of voting rings or other anomalies. I think the reason they
get so many upvotes is that they know what HN readers like. Look at the number
of comments, for example.

~~~
sixQuarks
I guess you're right (especially considering nobody else seems to agree with
me)

------
adamjernst
It'll be interesting to see what happens when Apple's TV is released. I
suspect the resale value of all other televisions will crater as everyone
tries to sell their old TV (and potential used purchasers instead purchase new
Apple TVs).

