
No Code - severine
https://vas3k.com/blog/nocode/
======
kleiba
The second sentence ("First, you work all month, and then you give half of the
money to those who didn't work.") is already so blatantly wrong and
reactionary that I almost have to force myself to read on - after all, if the
premise is already flawed what good can come of it?

~~~
thenoblesunfish
Seriously.. it wouldn't be such an aggravating statement if people didn't
actually believe it. (To state the obvious, the idea of the taxes is that the
money is used to pay for the roads to get you to work, for the education that
provides you and your employees the skills to work, and for all the other
things that allow society to function so you can work. Yes, including helping
people who are looking for work, so that the economy in which you work can
function. It's not altruism - you're paying for the system which supports your
job existing in the first place.)

~~~
sfoley
And, in Berlin, pays for health care.

------
perl4ever
I've gotten sucked into this in the form of MS Power Automate, and it just
seems to make everything more complicated and confusing. I spend most of my
time looking for workarounds to try to get back the ability to do stuff that
any programming language allows. I only learned Access and VBA about a year
ago, but I tend to agree with the people who say Microsoft has broken up parts
of the functionality of this reasonably useful workhorse into various
products, all with their own learning curve and without caring much about
covering all that you could previously do.

I'm beginning to think it's just a scam, where Microsoft and others sell a
vision to people who can't judge it because they don't know what programming
is...and the point is to have an incredibly convoluted and random licensing
system where every little thing requires paying more money. It feels as
calculated and predatory as a casino.

What "no code" boils down to, it appears to me thus far, is you don't have the
version control, the refactoring ability, the ability to reuse code, the
ability to see a reasonable amount of logic at once, the ability to easily
copy and paste, the security of an editor that won't randomly mangle your code
(sorry, it isn't code, it's...uh...JSON) it's just on and on, things you can't
do, and nothing added in exchange except the label of "no code". And I don't
see how anything complex can be maintained; it merely has the political
advantage that you don't have to _designate_ a developer to maintain it...but
in reality, it's if anything harder to understand.

~~~
bokstavkjeks
From how I understand it, the idea behind Power Automate isn't to move
programmers over to it. It's to allow other people in the business to automate
their workflows without bringing in developers. No/low code systems are great
for departments such as accounting and finance, they typically have some tasks
that are great targets for automation, and the workers know more about the
process than the developers. If the workers can create the automation without
bringing in developers it can save quite a bit of resources over time. These
people are also not all that keen on actually learning programming languages,
source control, version control, and all of that. They just have a problem in
their day-to-day work they'd like to solve.

If you want the "developer experience" (source control, some code, etc.) while
also having access to the flow-based editor you should look into Azure logic
apps instead.

------
s17n
What "no code" is really about is "no figuring out the toolchain, deployment,
integration with third parties, etc". For actually writing business logic,
replacing code with drag and drop logic blocks is... not really helpful to
anybody. But with all the crap that programmers actually spend our days
dealing with removed from the picture, anybody can write their own business
logic, even if they have to do it in _gasp_ code.

~~~
capableweb
> For actually writing business logic, replacing code with drag and drop logic
> blocks is... not really helpful to anybody

It's not helpful for anybody to be able to write their own services, even if
they cannot code? Everyone who can't code, would disagree with you. Sure, they
can spend some free time to pickup programming, and maybe after a lot of
reading and practicing, would be able to build the flow in a programming
language, but why do that when you could just drag and drop logic blocks until
it solves your particular problem, then move on to what you really care about?

~~~
UK-Al05
Because drag and dropping blocks is the same difficulty as writing it down
just with more steps.

The difficulty isn't in writing the code, but specifying exactly what you want
to do.

~~~
capableweb
Yeah, I mean, you're right, it is difficult to specifically know what you want
the computer/server to do.

But, writing code (as text) is a lot harder for people to do, than to use
graphical elements. Why I don't know, maybe it's just more daunting to get
started. But people have an easier time pickup "programming" via blocks rather
than text.

~~~
lmm
In my experience that's not actually true. People might be able to drop some
graphical elements into place, but they can't fix bugs in their "programs".

------
marcus_holmes
It's not "no code" it's "code later". It doesn't prevent the effort of coding
the solution, just moves it down the line and makes it harder.

The good part is that (as the article) says, you only need to write the code
when you know the code will be used.

The bad part is that the no-code solution will break at some point. Usually
because some part of the chain introduced a breaking change, or the process
its modelling needs to change in a way that the solution can't handle. Then
you need to replace the no-code with actual code, while under time pressure
because the business is broken waiting for the new solution.

He's right - this is a useful tool, and sitting in the middle is the best
place. But there are lots of people who will read this and create something
completely with no-code and with no intention of replacing it with code, until
it breaks and then they're in a painful place.

~~~
lloydatkinson
> It doesn't prevent the effort of coding the solution, just moves it down the
> line and makes it harder.

What is harder about using a OCR app and calling the Airtable API to get the
expenses compared to writing all the code to take photos, scan for text, and
then upload to Airtable or even a SQL DB?

~~~
marcus_holmes
The harder part is that when you have to write the code, it's because your
existing business relies on it, and you have interfaces defined by other
systems.

So, to take the example: you set up the expenses handling with no code, it's
easy, all good. Then halfway through next year, the OCR app starts charging $1
per scan (as a hypothetical). Now you have to write some code. But your
accountant is waiting for your receipts, so you have a deadline for the
coding. And your code has to use the Airtable API, because that's where the
rest of your process takes off. That API might be a lot harder to use than,
say, SQLite, which would be your choice if you were coding the system from
scratch.

So the code you have to write has constraints from the rest of the process
that still works, and a deadline. So it's harder to write.

That's what I meant by "makes it harder".

------
jl2718
I haven’t been following the no-code “movement”, but it seems to me that this
is really a revolt against abusive software development practices justified by
UI/UX and of course data lock-in. It seems that people really want editable,
transparent, and composable pipelines for common tasks. This is the GNU
philosophy for the command line.

Little story: I did a lot of work with Army grunts trying to avoid getting
blown up. The main tool was excel. Software shops kept delivering junk that
nobody used. The acquisitions guys loved a slick demo and that’s pretty much
all it did. They’d come in and install a new server cluster, which means a
bigger server room, which means more cooling, which means a bigger generator,
which means more diesel trucks, which means more convoys on the road, which
means more getting blown up. New grunts would tool around on it for a month
and then get a novel task they had to use excel for, and never go back. The
acq guys had such disdain for the ‘users’ that they couldn’t imagine that they
actually knew WTF they were doing. The slick demo went on to win the DCGS
contract, and now they’re stuck with ‘easy’ where they need flexible,
customizable, fast, simple (all the way down the stack).

So yeah, now I get it. It’s more like, no-UI than no-code.

~~~
locallost
I would say people want to get rid off developers. The way it usually works is
that somebody has an idea useful for humans, but they don't speak code. They
then need somebody who knows bits and bytes, but unfortunately probably does
not understand the actual idea or its purpose. So what ensues is the developer
trying to make a stupid machine do something that somebody else envisioned, as
a sort of idea to code compiler. This is not always true -- especially for
startups -- but it is I think for the no code part. Now if the developer could
concentrate on giving the tools where his expertise is relevant to the people
with ideas everything would be amazing. If it can work.

~~~
vangelis
Asking people what they want is an underrated skill.

------
phnofive
From Not Invented Here to Exclusively External Dependencies.

Took me down a fun rabbit hole of German tax deductions for expenses -
especially the fact that you can deduct a few thousand euros without evidence:

[https://www.thelocal.de/20180509/german-tax-return-know-
your...](https://www.thelocal.de/20180509/german-tax-return-know-your-tax-
deductible-expenses-wundertax-tlccu)

------
jamexcb
In Portugal we just give our NIF (fiscal number - VAT Number) every time you
buy something. All invoices will have your NIF. And all invoices are
communicated to the government by the software that make your invoice. All
invoicing software need to me certified by the government. This is mandatory.
When you need to make your taxes they are already filled in. And business
can't avoid taxes because they are communicated to the government.

------
reeeeee
Soooooo, the author moved away from waveapps because the system did no allow
him to link multiple pictures to 1 receipt. So he started implementing his own
no-code solution which... also doesn't allow him to link multiple pictures to
1 receipt...

~~~
reportgunner
So they at least wrote an article about it to salvage the time spent.

------
totetsu
I am trying to read this article, but it has a lot of money bumps..

------
voltagex_
What do you do when Integromat shuts down?

~~~
bszupnick
Same can be said about most cloud platforms that programmers would store their
code. "What if Google Cloud shuts down", "What if service X changes their
API", "What if your CI/CD provider makes a breaking change in their YAML
syntax".

This happens, it sucks, but it's not a reason to not host on cloud, use an
API, or deploy with a CI/CD. Outsourcing is a calculated risk.

~~~
majewsky
The difference is that Integromat is less fungible than, say, GitHub. If
GitHub were to shut down, I could move to GitLab or my own Gitea instance, and
it would be a fairly easy adjustment (mostly just changing the domain name
everywhere). If Integromat shuts down, you have to completely rebuild your
workflow on a competitor's platform because they're not based on a common
protocol.

------
pjc50
Is "Scanner Pro" good enough to be able to:

\- take a photo of a supermarket receipt and OCR _all_ the items

\- get that at least 95% correct

\- output that in a document with correct horizontal grouping?

If not, can someone recommend me an Android app for this?

------
avmich
vas3k is a wonderful blogger, glad his page made it to HN. He has technical
stories on the site, but it's non-technical ones which I consider real gifts
to his readers.

------
jgarzon
For me the worst part is that I can use a keyboard to write code but only use
a single pointer from my mouse to move stuff. It’s so much slower

------
mikecoles
I saw no-code and poor eyesight picked out what looked like an amateur 2x2
callsign so I thought this was about licensing and morse code.

Cool workflow he has developed. It seems taxes are too crazy everywhere.

------
ykevinator
What does the auto segmentation and ocr?

~~~
stuzenz
Scanner Pro does the OCR \- and it was implied (due to the need for the
correct name) that the categorisation is a mapping from the name used for the
scanned OCRed file.

That is my take from it. I could be wrong.

------
klingonopera
Wow. That seems like a lot of work.

I just use GnuCash, a scanner, some good old Samba file-hosting on a local
Debian server running 24/7, and WOL and VNC (or just SSH and SCP) if I need to
access anything from not at home.

------
p2t2p
It is me or “no code” is just “Unix way” of cloud world?

~~~
kennydale
if Unix utilities could do a thousand different things instead of just one -
then yes :)

~~~
p2t2p
Well, I mean there are cloud services that serve one function, like sending
emails (MailChimp) or storing files (Dropbox) and then you glue them together
with IFTTT. Analogy of Unix utilities and shell scripting comes into mind by
itself.

------
patchtopic
"First, you work all month, and then you give half of the money to those who
couldn't work."

fixed the wording for you.

~~~
seph-reed
It sounds like Taxes in Berlin are extremely effective. In the US my Taxes
seem to just vanish.

~~~
imtringued
The biggest chunk of those taxes are mandatory government insurance programs.
The government may or may not be running them poorly but you can definitively
say that the money is being used for a specific purpose.

------
teraku
This reminds me of [https://xkcd.com/1425/](https://xkcd.com/1425/)

------
peace2all
TL;DR: He relies on 3 different online services to scan business receipts and
track expenses. None are needed.

He spends hours (days) trying to automate what he himself claims is only a few
expenses per month (and shows a photo of a very thin folder of receipts).

I can’t imagine his business will be ever very successful. He wastes too much
time toying with simple things.

But aside from that, if one wants a “no code” solution to tracking expenses,
along with imaged receipts in case later proof is needed here you go:

1\. Take pic of receipt. If you need multiple pics per image, you can combine
images post de facto via something like Apple’s Preview app (save as PDF), or
you can use Apple Notes to do for you. I assume other competing platforms have
similar options. Worst case scenario: simply add “page-2”, “page-3”, in the
file name.

2\. Save image file in a directory called “business-receipts”.

3\. Name file with receipt date, vendor, amount, and maybe description or
anything else. Date comes first for easy finding later. “2020-06-15 ATT 63-00
USD Monthly business cell bill.pdf”

4\. Enter transaction into appropriate tab of business finances spreadsheet
(cash, bank, credit card, etc.)

5\. Add a category for the expense, if you want.

6\. Get back to work.

Benefits?

1\. No code necessary (unless you count your initial spreadsheet setup and the
use of VLOOKUP for reporting). Call me crazy but if you’ve been going through
all the gyrations outlined in the article, I assume you’ve mastered VLOOKUP or
can do so in 10 minutes and that you’ve also graduated Junior High school.

2\. No trusting OCR “auto-populate”. Most of us can type faster than these
things can think. Also, if you trust those (without verifying each time), I
have some perfectly safe driverless cars to sell you.

3\. Almost no technical debt. No API depreciation. No risk of anyone being
bought out.

4\. Offline. Works without the internet. As did most all business processes 25
years ago on PCs. Amazing. No clunky browser needed either.

5\. Secure. Your data is kept Local First. If you choose to backup online, so
be it. Encrypt and Backup. But all your prior processing between multiple
“services” (with your unencrypted data being manipulated on their ends) is no
longer necessary.

Counter-Arguments:

1\. Excel is now also a “service”: True but it’s more popular and has more
staying power than any of the ones you’re using. If you really think you don’t
want to pay monthly for Excel (not sure what business can avoid this), there
are plenty of free options. And for the purposes of this method, at least, you
could do this on Excel 97 (buy once, use ‘forever’).

2\. Still have to deal with online storage: Well, no you don’t, but let’s
pretend that you only trust hard drives in the cloud and not the $100 4Tb one
you can get at Walmart. So what? Encrypt and send it on up. If you use Macs or
Office365, you likely have plenty of room already. Why involve another third-
party? But anyway, this is a part of the “no code” process you added as if it
was unique only to that process. It’s a bigger part of a different decision on
how you store, encrypt, and/or backup your business data. A single line CRON
job would take care of this, unless you count that as “code” since it involves
typing a line of text instead of 47 mouse clicks.

3\. This isn’t multi-user: True. Based on the 2 receipts per month statement,
and the thin Lemonade Stand folder of receipts, it didn’t seem worthy of that
functionality. If multi-user is needed, and the free WaveApp is costing you
sleep, Quickbooks is your solution. Welcome to the world of Big Boy Businesses
where the owners work hard and underlings do data entry into complex software.

~~~
kixiQu
Hacker News needs a "Flag As 'This Is Going To Be The Next Dropbox Comment,
Isn't It'" button

