
Dating for nerds (part 2): gender differences - stared
http://p.migdal.pl/2017/09/30/dating-for-nerds-gender-differences.html
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IgorPartola
It's very easy for men to fall into the mode of "us guys have it really tough
because women are scared of men because of a few bad apples. But I'm a nice
guy![1]" Even the article states that it's tough for guys. From a certain
perspective it is true: if rape wasn't a thing, we would all live happier and
sexier lives, and women in the dating pool would have more freedom to take
more chances.

But that line of reasoning is false: women have it tougher, because rape and
sexual assault are objectively worse than simple rejection.

Additionally, as my ex likes to say "the odds are good, but the goods are
odd." If you are a man who uses Tinder or Bumble and aren't getting many
matches, do a little experiment. Find a female friend and ask to do some
swiping with her. You'll get a buttload of matches right away. Message them
all with something simple like "hi" or "cute dog". See how long it takes
before he is asking if you want him to put cannoli filling in your ass and
then squirt it into his mouth (real thing, I wish I had saved the
screenshots). In that barrage of bullshit, you can still find a few decent
sounding people. Of those, you have to screen them for whether they are
actually decent humans or sociopaths. Oh and "dating fatigue" sets in really
early too. After a dozen matches all say "you DTF?" in the first 2-3 messages,
why even bother going back? So guess what? The rate of finding a good match is
just about the same for women as it is for men.

To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with the statistics in the article. Just the
language and some of the conclusions.

[1] [https://www.reddit.com/r/niceguys/](https://www.reddit.com/r/niceguys/)

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stared
So, in you opinion, which things should I have phrased differently?

I think everyone agrees that rape is worse than rejection.

For messages - well, I cover this "false positive" stuff.

~~~
IgorPartola
I would say that “guys have it tough” is the wrong way to phrase it. I’d say
that as women tend to be more careful in selecting who they engage with. Your
reasoning as to why is actually quite good, but it’s not that men have it
tougher. It’s that women are more careful. Maybe “women have to be more
selective” is a good heading for that section.

As a anecdote, I have a friend who will go on a date with literally anyone. If
they talk to him, he will do whatever it takes to see them, even if they are
not his type, by whatever definition. Women rarely engage in this behavior.
That doesn’t mean men have it tough, just that the threat to him is much lower
than to a woman in an equivalent situation.

Studying non-hetero dating is also a fun comparison, as it highlights a lot of
the heteronormative behavior lots of people take for granted.

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TazeTSchnitzel
Huh, why'd this get flagged? It's a fairly reasonable article, all-told.

~~~
dreta
Even if that’s true, i don’t see how articles like these belong on this site.

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guskel
>A lot of behaviors considered creepy are centered around concealing sexual
intentions.

And a lot of behaviors considered creepy are centered around expressing sexual
intentions as well.

~~~
stared
Creepiness is a complex subject, and there are many shades of it.

In general, it seems to be anything that makes women sexually uncomfortable is
perceived as creepy (from Models by Mark Manson). But the ones that can (and
should) be avoided is:

\- Expressing sexual intentions in some sneaky way (like, staring at a girl
but hesitating with talking to her). Though, importantly, playful flirting is
not considered creepy (even though it's not about showing things explicitly).

\- Pursuing her for too long when she is not interested (some behaviors can be
super romantic or creepy, totally depending on her interest in you, which you
may not know).

Yet, from what I seen (and learned) being upfront (or flirting playifully) AND
leaving ample space for her to turn you down (so - not being to pushy or
needy) is good enough (and actionable).

To some point it is not possible to be creepy-proof if you want to show any
sexual intentions. At the same time, it's not a big deal (and shouldn't be).

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pm90
This is a really good article, and I like all the hyperlinks to other
material. Personally I also worked a lot to get to a point where I could have
a decent social life as a nerd, and a lot of the content here is spot on.

I think the article mentions it a but it deserves to be said aloud: don't
always have sex as the goal, try to enjoy the experience instead. Which
doesn't mean that you shouldn't desire a sexual experience or try to have sex.
But there are many many reasons why it may not happen so don't be frustrated
if it doesn't. Do try to enjoy the company, rather than specific actions.

Which also means: don't hang out with someone who you strongly dislike or
don't agree on certain fundamental things. Value your own time, and value
others' as well.

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dias_
Does this article seriously claim 25% of women are raped? Troubling if
correct.

~~~
IgorPartola
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_States)

It's not quite as simple as just that number, but yes it's staggeringly high,
even in developed countries. Note that most go unreported to the police for a
huge variety of reasons.

Edit: some choice quotes for the lazy:

> Only 16% of rapes and sexual assaults are reported to the police (Rape in
> America: A Report to the Nation. 1992 and United Nations Populations Fund,
> 2000a)

> The 1998 the National Violence Against Women Survey described the incidence
> of rape as 1 in 6 and 1 in 33 men based upon the report of experiencing an
> attempted or completed rape in her or his lifetime.

> A 2007 survey by the National Institute of Justice found that 19.0% of
> college women and 6.1% of college men experienced either sexual assault or
> attempted sexual assault since entering college.

~~~
Retric
Lumping attempted rape with actual rape is arguably very misleading. The
actual statistics and definitions are really tricky and get bent to portray
various agendas. Aka This area is 'safe' vs men are evil.

Drunken collage sex for example has various interpretations at say .08 BAC vs
0.3 BAC etc. Especially when you get into regrets after the fact etc.

IMO, you need define the measure on a scale from say unwanted but non physical
to violent physical encounter, before the statistic is really meaningful to a
general audience.

~~~
IgorPartola
I think it's better to not lump them together when presenting statistics, but
presenting both is important. Both are traumatic experiences and will haunt
the person for the rest of their life. "Attempted rape" is not exactly an
innocent thing.

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
> Both are traumatic experiences and will haunt the person for the rest of
> their life.

The issue here is that with an expanded definition of rape, rape isn't always
traumatic. Thousands of women have drunken sex every night, yet the vast
majority of them aren't traumatized by it.

~~~
IgorPartola
> The issue here is that with an expanded definition of rape, rape isn't
> always traumatic.

 _facepalm_ Say that sentence out loud until what you just said kicks in.

Consensual sex, even when alcohol is involved, is still consensual sex. Rape
is rape.

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
> Consensual sex, even when alcohol is involved, is still consensual sex. Rape
> is rape.

The issue is that drunk consensual sex is no longer considered consensual. The
definition of rape has changed and expanded over the years to include
activities that are pretty common in our society.

~~~
IgorPartola
I'mma need a real good source here. Show me any legal definition of rape that
says that.

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TheAdamAndChe
Absolutely! [https://web.stanford.edu/group/maan/cgi-
bin/?page_id=305](https://web.stanford.edu/group/maan/cgi-bin/?page_id=305)

With Stanford's definition, consent can be considered null and void because
they were drunk at the time, opening up the potential for retroactive
revocation of consensual drunk sex.

~~~
IgorPartola
No. I take issue with the definition of "any alcohol => no ability to consent"
but Stanford's definition is pretty clear: there is a point past which you are
too drunk to consent. Like, if I found you passed out in a bar bathroom and
started fucking you, you wouldn't be able to consent, right? But if you had a
beer and said "let's go to my place", you obviously can. There is no law or
definition that says "any alcohol automatically means no ability to consent."

~~~
Retric
'any alcohol' != drunk. But the line includes 'judgment is impaired' which is
a very loos definition.

'Drunk' has expanded with DUI laws to be include very mild levels of
intoxication as people get DUI while not noticeably impaired. Further, nobody
is taking blood tests making dunk and consent tricky subjects.

Can a 120lb person give consent after 4 shots in 2 hours? How about 6, 7 etc?

~~~
IgorPartola
And if you look at actual cases that were investigated and went to trial, you
won’t see the line of argument “well your honor I had four shots and then I
told him ‘yes I really want to have sex with you, you have my consent’ but
obviously I could not give consent because I was drunk. The alcohol in my
system made me say those words out loud in a clear tone that I made sure he
heard and understood.” That’s just not how it goes down. Usually you get a
whole lot of victim blaming for being in a bad situation, and no clear
enthusiastic verbal consent was given. There is some gray area there and
that’s how actual rapists often end up walking free. But in reality if you got
enthusiastic clear verbal consent before and after the person took the four
shots, and during they didn’t lose consciousness and didn’t stop you, but
continued giving you signs that they were still consenting, chances are you
are safe.

If you don’t have clear and enthusiastic verbal or written consent, don’t have
sex. It is pretty simple in practice.

~~~
Retric
I think the US legal definition is generally reasonable in practice. I am more
talking about what various groups use when collecting statistics or worse
creating estimates.

