
Ha-ha wall - EndXA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha-ha
======
twic
See also the 'Punic ditch'. I can't find a good description online ([1] is the
most specific), but basically it's a fortification comprising a human-scale
haha with the wall on the outward side, and the slope on the inward side. The
idea is that attackers can cross it easily, by jumping down the wall, then
charging up the slope, at which point you open fire on them, then when they
turn to run way, they have to climb up the wall to escape, at which point they
are sitting ducks.

These ditches are called Punic not because they were invented by the
Carthaginians (Punic is the adjective for things from Carthage, don't ask me
why), but because they were incredibly brutal, and Rome's early wars with
Carthage were so horrific, they became a byword for anything eye-wateringly
cruel like this.

[1] [https://luntfort.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/punic-
ditches/](https://luntfort.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/punic-ditches/)

~~~
asdff
Seems pretty irrelevant if you've got the numbers on the defenders. Just don't
retreat and throw bodies into the wide open breach. You'd drive right over
just fine like a spike strip facing the wrong way.

~~~
pharke
The ditch itself is also filled with caltrops and ankle breaking traps. The
fortifications behind the ditch usually involved a wooden palisade or stone
walls. Even so, these defenses were generally for defending against small
groups of loosely organized attackers. If a large force attacked, infantry and
cavalry would deploy to the field to oppose the enemy with the fort perhaps
protecting a flank or offering other strategic support.

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Ice_cream_suit
"The personal injury team at Penningtons Manches LLP has successfully
negotiated a settlement of over £10,000 for a client who was injured during a
wedding at a prestigious county manor house.

The claimant attended the wedding with her partner in September 2014. They
decided to leave the celebrations at around 11:30pm and make their way back to
their on-site accommodation. The claimant was required to walk across the
manor garden in order to reach her room. Unfortunately, there was inadequate
lighting along the route and they found the lawn to be in darkness, with only
a small light in the far distance to guide them. Due to the poorly lit area,
the claimant walked from the lawn and over the top of a brick wall, falling 3
feet downwards into the grass area of a 'ha-ha'."

~~~
OJFord
In a similar case:

> The presiding QC judge, Alastair Campbell, deemed a ha-ha wall to be outside
> the scope of the law regarding obvious dangers, such as cliffs or canals,
> where an occupier is not required to take precautions against a person being
> injured. This was due to it being an unusual man-made feature that the
> public would be very much unaware of, especially across a wide lawn.

which I find an odd decision. I didn't know what they were called (so I
followed the link curiously) but certainly I'd expect one at a house such as
that. Unusual for the average dwelling, sure, but not 'across a wide lawn' or
at a property with a wide lawn for it to be across.

------
ascorbic
They're not just to protect from animals. You'll often find them in gardens
where the area below isn't even open to livestock. The other reason for these
is to hide unsightly parts of the view. If there is a road, village or other
buildings in front of the house, for example, building a ha-ha could make it
look like the park stretches unbroken to the horizon. It could also make it
look like distant hillsides are part of your park if your own land is a little
on the small side.

Source: my wife is a landscape archaeologist, specialising in post-medieval
parks. We visit a lot of stately homes.

------
hprotagonist
And in Ankh Morpork, there's the hoho: A cunningly designed ditch like a Haha,
only the Hoho is 50 feet deep. Has claimed three Palace gardeners. Also once
trapped Dr. Cruces, then head of the Assassins' Guild.

~~~
dzamie
Yep, and as mentioned in the article, there's also a he-he. A description is
never given of it, but it's a safe assumption that it's a tiny haha, possibly
only a couple inches high.

Interestingly, if this is accurate, it means that the front/backness of the
vowel in hehe/haha/hoho correlates with its size.

~~~
knolax
A Hon-Hon is a Ha-Ha where the incline leads directly into a tunnel.

~~~
radeklew
And the chon-honnel is the one from France to England

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osrec
The examples section on the Wikipedia page feels rather poor. The first
example is a photo from the back (where the wall cannot actually be seen) and
needs to be supplemented with a picture from the front, so you can actually
see what the structure is! The other examples just look like standard walls.

The diagram at the top does get the idea across though.

~~~
shpx
I disagree, but regardless, this sounds more like a comment for the article's
Talk page instead of HN. Better yet, you could go find better examples (with a
free license) or take your own and add them to the article.

Contributing to Wikipedia is quite fun and not enough people do it. You don't
even need to make an account.

~~~
osrec
While my comment may fit well on article's talk page, I don't think it's off
topic here. A few upvotes agree.

I contribute to Wikipedia already by improving maths articles, so I know the
process. Your comment appears to have incorrectly assumed certain things, and
worse still, you've tried to educate me in a rather patronising manner. I
don't think that's in the spirit of HN.

~~~
Jenz
> Contributing to Wikipedia is quite fun and not enough people do it. You
> don't even need to make an account.

How is this _not_ in the spirit of HN? Sure you might already know, but are we
not to share knowledge/opinion because readers _might_ already know it?

Plus, other people (like me) also read these comments, and they might lack
relevant knowledge... educating is not a bad thing.

~~~
osrec
Educating is a great thing. Patronising not so much.

If the OP's comment is for the good of the wider community, it should probably
not contain a friendly yet subtle insult to the tune of "rather than just
criticising, get off your backside and do something about it, you might even
enjoy it".

And I'd be very surprised if someone reading HN is unaware that Wikipedia can
be edited...

~~~
Ensorceled
I did not find the comment patronizing. Assuming bad intent on the part of
other commentators is ALSO not in the HN spirit.

~~~
osrec
How is it not patronising?! The person is telling me that they disagree with
my viewpoint - and rather than then explaining why they disagree, they decide
to explain to me that I can edit Wikipedia! To me, that is patronising.

While their language is mild and friendly, their message is utterly
patronising.

~~~
Ensorceled
> To me, that is patronising.

To me, that is not patronizing. Just like your original comment about the
photos and the original reply, this is all _subjective_.

That you chose to take offense to subjective, measured comments is something
you may want to spend time considering.

~~~
osrec
I disagree, but regardless, this sounds more like a comment for Reddit instead
of HN. Better yet, rather than criticising my interpretation, you could go
find examples of better comments and enjoy reading them at your leisure. Or
you could even come up with your own and add them to the HN page. Contributing
to HN is quite fun and not enough people do it. You do need to make an
account, but it's free and only takes a sec. \-- Sound familiar? Do you feel
patronised at all?

------
jszymborski
In Quebec, there's a town named Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha! for similar reasons (as
well as two Baie des Ha! Ha! and one Rivière Ha! Ha!).

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Louis-du-
Ha!_Ha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Louis-du-Ha!_Ha)!

~~~
ndepoel
I did not know what a ha-ha wall was until a few months ago when we happened
to pass by Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha! while driving from New Brunswick to
Montreal. It's right on the Transcanadian Highway route so hard to miss. To be
sure a few laughs were had when we saw the town's name.

------
aiddun
A small youtube channel I follow just posted a video about these- specifically
one next to an unfriendly military base on a street aptly named “ha ha road”.

[https://youtube.com/watch?v=pHHGSfd6rPk](https://youtube.com/watch?v=pHHGSfd6rPk)

~~~
fauigerzigerk
I live right across the street from there.

The video obviously explains the history of this military base, but what the
ha-ha "protects" nowadays is actually not a firing range but a
football/cricket pitch and some other MOD sports facilities that are open to
the public. I'm using them several times a week. You can also book the space
for events.

So fortunately this area is not quite as scary and unfriendly as it appears in
the vid. Sadly, the sheep were all scared off. No trace of them, ha ha.

------
Theodores
These are quite common in Gloucestershire but you would not know it unless you
have some reason to be invited to the big houses that have estates.

The health and safety considerations cited in the Wikipedia page don't apply
to the ha-ha walls that are situated in sizeable estates. The big house, the
extensive gardens and the fields beyond are owned by the same family. It has
all been inherited rather than bought with 'new money'. The family and the
staff know where the wall is and random members of the public just don't have
access to the area, in part because of the ha-ha. The surrounding fields are
not open to the public either.

Others may use the ha-ha in a modern context to hide a car park in a hilly
city setting but this is not a true ha-ha wall. These fake ha-ha walls are
also for postage stamp sized plots of land. A real ha-ha is at the end of
formal gardens that are so big that only gardening staff would need to go that
far out from the house. The lawns should be big enough for erecting a marquee,
having a large croquet lawn or whatever else goes with having a house that
size.

In the true country setting, e.g. Gloucestershire or another English shire,
there are far worse hazards. A child could fall from a hay barn onto some
combine harvester. Or a sheep dip with those neuro-toxin chemicals could be a
grizzly end. Normal cows or the bull in a field could get you too. Hopping
over a barbed wire fence might not kill you but isn't necessarily easy. Only a
stupid, trespassing city dweller who should not be in the countryside under
any circumstances could possibly fall off a real ha-ha and any ha-ha that is
not part of a grand estate is not a real ha-ha.

Rivers and flood prevention can also provide a good excuse for a stately home
to have a version of the ha-ha. This will be a ditch arrangement with a berm,
this hides the riff-raff using the riverside path and the ironwork that takes
the place of a wall for keeping them out.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
The Royal Crescent Resident's Lawn in Bath is protected by a ha ha.

It's more of a discouragement than a fortification. It's not hard to scramble
over it if you really want to.

------
thr0w__4w4y
When I read "Ha ha Wall" and saw the picture, I instantly assumed that it
meant the people on the "safe" side of the wall could tease/taunt the people
on the "difficult" side of the wall - like Nelson in the Simpsons, "Ha ha!"

Guess I was wrong. Maybe less than 100% convinced I'm wrong, but I probably
just fell in love with my own explanation & I'm unwilling to fully concede.

------
bambax
As a French, I have never heard about this name. The article mentions the
Château de Meudon, which I know reasonably well (I took the aerial views
linked to on the wiki page
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Meudon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Meudon)):
"ha ha" isn't found on that page, and I can't think of an example of such a
construction in the domain.

Isn't this a term attributed to the French but exclusively used in English...?

------
m3kw9
I thought it’s named haha because so the person can still laugh at the
intruder while they try.

~~~
happytoexplain
This was precisely my assumption. I was surprised by the etymology.

~~~
orpheline
I'm both surprised and skeptical. It makes me wonder whether there's a larger
story, now lost... Perhaps the archetypal occurrence was someone famously
humorless, and their outburst was forever burned into the minds of those
present. Or perhaps the first instance was on the estate of a noble who
thought it funny and insisted everyone else find it funny, too...

~~~
ad404b8a372f2b9
You might know this already given your username, but for the sake of the
thread I feel I should mention "Ha ha" is a common expression in french when
discovering something, and not exclusive to this feature (which I felt wasn't
made clear in the article). It has a specific intonation pattern and doesn't
sound much like laughing, so to me the etymology isn't all that surprising.

------
miguelmota
It does seem a little bit dangerous if there's no warning signage at the top.
I could imagine someone running off the top landscape by accident if it's hard
to see the divider.

------
wilsonrocks
Interestingly, I'm a web developer at a company housed in a stately home in
Yorkshire that has a ha-ha. Can confirm that a herd of cows were not able to
get on the lawn.

------
forkerenok
My initial guess was that "Ha-ha" stands for someone laughing at the face of
the ones that were stopped by the wall. Something you wouldn't be able to do
had it been a traditional wall.

------
ortusdux
I've see the opposite of this, building fences on top of berms, in areas where
fence height is limited.

~~~
fortran77
An ah! ah! wall?

------
gagan2020
Zoo uses this effectively to give scenic view to visitors.

------
andybak
This was a major Baader–Meinhof phenomenon incident for me. I literally had
never heard the term before yesterday when I visited Exbury Gardens.

One of their info signs mentioned that female officers were forbidden from
attending a royal visit during WWII but got round the ban by standing behind a
Ha-ha wall so only the tops of their heads could be seen.

I was planning to come back and look up "Ha-ha wall" but it conveniently
turned out to be on the front page of HN!

------
Ice_cream_suit
"A man who tripped and fell into a historic boundary ditch within the grounds
of a stately home while taking his grandson on a guided bat walk has been
awarded £8750 damages.

John Cowan badly fractured his right ankle after falling into a ha-ha ditch at
Hopetoun House on the outskirts of Edinburgh on September 5, 2008, as he and
his grandson returned to a car park in the dark."

------
gonational
Not suggesting this should be done, but for the sake of practical engineering
argument, if a wall like this was used on the southern border, and I guess in
areas where there is no hill it would have to be essentially a moat, with this
theoretically save a lot of money over into nonsensically expensive concrete
wall that offers a similar level of human blocking power?

~~~
NikkiA
They're even more vulnerable to the 'ladder' attack than a regular wall, since
you don't have to worry about the drop on the other side of the wall.

~~~
knolax
It seems that you don't even need something as complicated as a ladder, a
sufficiently long and sturdy plank could act as a ramp. Make the wall ADA
compatible.

------
rtnyftxx
To be installed around the Berlin Reichstag [https://www.tip-berlin.de/berlin-
considers-security-moat-for...](https://www.tip-berlin.de/berlin-considers-
security-moat-for-the-reichstag-building/)

~~~
petre
German politicians feeling threatened? By whom? Angry taxpayers? Would be
terrorists? Antifa youth? The article is quite hillarious as it ridicules this
plan. I can already imagine tipsy German MPs going to work and accidentally
fallinng into the ditch.

------
BooneJS
Disney’s Animal Kingdom uses these in the Kilimanjaro Safaris ride.

------
new_realist
This type of wall looks quite unsafe, especially at night. It seems easy to
fall off the top of the wall into the ditch.

------
buzzert
Apple Park implements this as well to hide the fence (and the city of
Cupertino) from the employees inside.

~~~
saagarjha
I’m not sure if I’d call the raised mound that surrounds the campus a ha-ha
wall. It probably was built to hide everything outside but the mountains,
though.

------
saagarjha
Does a moat count as a ha-ha wall?

~~~
compiler-guy
Although it serves something of a similar purpose, a moat interrupts the view
and usually doesn’t slope on one side only.

~~~
kgwgk
> a moat interrupts the view

No, it doesn't: it's just a ditch. (But it's not very effective as a defensive
element if not combined with a wall).

~~~
compiler-guy
Skimming through the first hundred or so hits on “moat” on images.google.com
shows that pretty much every single one does in fact interrupt the view.

So at the very least, keeping a clean view isn’t a fundamental property of
moats. But keeping a clean view is the raison d’etre for haha’s. In fact
that’s how they get their name.

~~~
kgwgk
Moats do in fact provide a very clear view of whatever is on the other side
(often a castle or a wall). But of course that's not why they are built,
nobody disputes that.

~~~
compiler-guy
The key here is “uninterrupted” and “clean”. with a well done haha, you can’t
tell that anything is there at all. With most moats, you can.

------
Tharkun
The popularity of freerunning/parkour makes me doubt their usefulness as a
security device, unless they're made significantly wider & deeper than the
wikipedia examples.

~~~
asdff
Or just drop a log on it and stroll over.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Problematic if you're a sheep.

------
mschuller
There’s a great song about it:
[https://youtu.be/HBUMuDLCLpk](https://youtu.be/HBUMuDLCLpk)

------
jacquesm
I've seen a house in the united states that was built into the facing wall,
from many angles the house was totally invisible.

------
pvaldes
One of the greatest creations in landscaping.

------
bootlooped
I have heard or read allegations that there is a wall like this along parts of
the border between North and South Korea.

------
ekianjo
They use this technique in the Singaporean Zoo.

~~~
refurb
It’s used in quite a few zoos. Main animal enclosure is at same height as
visitors, but slopes down to a 15 ft wall.

------
hcarvalhoalves
Nice hack - lateral thinking for fences.

------
ajuc
Also known as a ditch :)

~~~
OJFord
I would say a ditch is sloped ground both sides. The vertical (whether brick
wall or otherwise) is a key feature here.

------
qbaqbaqba
Ha-ha-broke-your-leg wall would be a more accurate name.

------
cryptozeus
Ha ha

------
danso
Seems relatable to contemporary digital paywalls and walled garden variants.

~~~
contingencies
Or perhaps more broadly consumption-oriented (popular mobile) platforms versus
general computing. As the young and curious user approaches, the limits of the
permissioned experience, previously hidden, suddenly loom large. The
realization that one is constrained by the willful labours of an opposed
miscreant creator either weighs heavy or is denied... as another meaningless
notification redirects their attention to the myopic stream of infinite-scroll
minutiae in the central circus of permissioned experience.

~~~
gotts
That's a good analogy.

Unfortunately the young is left on the unfortunate side of the "wall".

