
Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t - frostmatthew
https://backchannel.com/thousands-of-veterans-want-to-learn-to-code-but-cant-7ed60c167a61
======
polpo
Whether you believe code schools are good or bad (I lean somewhat towards
good), I wonder if we have not fully learned the lesson from the rash several
years ago of fly-by-night for-profit colleges preying on vets and providing
substandard education and inflated job promises, all on the GI Bill's dime. I
worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact
same thing happen again.

~~~
aphextron
> I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact
> same thing happen again.

This is dead on. I am a veteran currently going back to school for an
engineering degree on the GI bill. When I got out of the service I didn't even
consider going back to school, and just taught myself how to code and started
working as a web developer. Once I made it to the point of working with other
software engineers with formal educations in a large firm though, I realized
the depths of my ignorance. I hit a wall that no amount of javascript
bootcamps or rails tutorials could ever get me past. The fundamental knowledge
of math and science that separates engineers from 'coders'.

I think the VA is absolutely doing the right thing here by not allowing code
schools to take advantage of GI bill money. The industry does not need more
coders, it needs more engineers. If these schools were legitimate they would
be working in connection with established universities to provide accelerated
ABET accredited degrees. You'll notice that the article posted mentioned
nothing of the actual long term success rates of these programs, either.

~~~
ma2rten
Many people think that most developers don't actually need CS (and much less
math) fundamentals in their every-day work life. That's why coding interviews
like big tech companies tend to do are controversial ("Why would an iOS
developer need to able to balance a binary tree?").

Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of
education?

~~~
aphextron
>Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of
education?

At a certain point I was working on an iOS app attempting to do some really
advanced animations with Core Animation/Core Graphics and my total lack of
geometry and basic algebra knowledge started to show. One of my colleagues
started talking about the movement of an animation in terms of radians and pi
and I felt completely lost. He was speaking a totally different language to
me. Up to that point I had felt somehow "proud" of being a self taught
developer with no formal schooling. But when that happened I just felt
completely embarrassed at my lack of fundamental knowledge and context. Now
I'm struggling through undergrad mathematics classes and hoping to get to that
point some day. The greatest overall takeaway I had from that experience is
that math and science open a completely different world to you that most
people don't even know exists. It changed my life.

~~~
taway_1212
A lot of the hardcore game developers (which use way more math and advanced CS
concepts that most other devs) didn't go to college. This stuff is totally
learnable on your own. I recommend for example "Essential mathematics for
games" by Bishop and Van Verth.

~~~
jungletek
Thanks for the recommendation. As someone pursuing gamedev who also knows
their math background is lacking, I'm always looking for tailored stuff like
this.

------
greggman
I would love for more people to code and I would love for veterans for find
work but ....

My impression is those who excel at coding (like everything else) love doing
it. So, I would expect the majority to fail. It's doesn't seem like a skill
like riding a bike where you learn it once and then it's just this thing you
can pull out whenever (or maybe it just takes longer to get to that point).

My point is, whenever I see programs like this it appears the majority of the
students are just going through the lessons. The moment the class is over
they're back to whatever their real love is. They're basically learning by
rote and it's a superficial learning not because they aren't smart but rather
because they're disinterested. They're just doing it hoping to get a job, not
to scratch an itch / pursue a hobby.

As such it feels like they're unlikely to ever become the kinds of people that
actually get the jobs they're taking the classes to get.

Is there a way to solve that? Is there a technique to evoke a passion for
coding in the majority of students or is it more up to the student to bring /
discover their own passion? I know a bad teacher can ruin passion and
interest. The majority of math and computer teachers seem to not really know
what they're teaching and just teaching from a book. I don't know that a great
teacher can spark passion an interest though. Maybe they can it a larger
percentage of their students but that percentage will being small?

~~~
snarfy
I've often felt this way in the past, but with experience I have to disagree.

There is a large range of skill needed for various jobs. I've met plenty of
people writing software for a living that don't care about software. It's just
a job to them. You don't need a PhD to hide in a corner writing test
automation for mega corp.

~~~
kochthesecond
I have to agree here. We must be able to find room for all the people coding
to have a job. I love writing code, live and breathe software, but I can't
demand that everyone must have this passion. However, a team consisting only
of job coders tend to stagnate. We must find the room for both.

------
dforrestwilson
Self-taught veteran coder here. I'm not great, but I've built a few things in
Python (with a LOT of input from more experienced developers).

I never really thought about coding until I came to a developer with an idea
and he said "Great now go build it."

It was very intimidating, but I was lucky because I had a boss who gave me the
freedom to devote time to learning and many false-starts. It took about 6
months before I had something slammed together that worked.

I learned that coding (while hard) is not impossible to learn. More
importantly I believe that it re-wired my brain for problem solving. I think
more logically than I did before, and that has helped me to learn other
skillset and further grow my career. I now have an MBA and work in finance.

So I'm sorry but I don't believe that coding is something that you have to be
a natural rockstar to do. There are so many small and solvable problems out
there and so few coders. These are still wildcatter days.

I do tend to agree about programming classes being rote, but isn't that true
of any kind of education?

Perhaps what is more important is having an employer flexible enough to let
their employees learn new skills while working.

------
mawburn
As a veteran and a developer, I think this is a good thing. This title is just
clickbait nonsense.

The amount of "schools" preying on young veterans for their juicy GI Bills and
student loans was sickening. It was basically theft and left a lot of veterans
in debt.

I saw many soldiers coerced into starting courses just before being deployed.
It must have been nice for those schools to have a lot of enrolled students
paying absorbent amounts of money who were not even capable of participating
in the course.

Most coding bootcamps are already predators, keep them the hell away from the
GI Bill.

------
jondubois
There are already more coders than are needed. What there aren't enough of are
leaders who are smart enough to recognize this.

I cringe at the thought that software engineering could become a "blue collar"
profession.

Systems have become needlessly over-complicated and this is driving an
increase in demand for coders.

As companies hire more coders; their systems get more features but they also
grow in complexity (particularly if they hire junior coders). Non-technical
managers are often not knowledgeable enough about programming/architecture to
see that their systems are more complicated than they need to be and never
bother to rein-in the complexity.

So basically as the complexity increases and becomes harder to manage,
companies hire more coders but those coders are a double-edged sword because
whilst helping to manage existing complexity, they also add new complexity on
the side.

Unlike with most other professions, in software development/engineering, there
is no limit as to how many people you can throw at a problem; that's because
there is no limit to system complexity and richness of features but the law of
diminishing returns still applies.

~~~
crispyambulance
So you're taking a dubious theory (tech-debt => hire juniors => more tech-
debt, repeat), applying it industry-wide and then using it as an argument
against JUST VETERANS from pursuing a career-change into software?

~~~
jondubois
I have no problems with veterans wanting to become coders. What I don't want
more of are people who go into this profession only for the sake of making
more money - These people are only driving up software complexity and not
actually adding value to their companies.

Software engineering is one of the few professions that let you get more money
by delivering a lower quality product (assuming that your manager is
sufficiently non-technical).

------
blhack
If you live in Phoenix, AZ I will personally 1-on-1 mentor you if you want to
learn how to code.

Come to heatsync labs every wednesday from 9:00am-3:00pm.

(But you have to actually show up AND you have to agree to the curriculum.
Email in profile.)

~~~
Dangeranger
If you live in Vermont and want one-on-one help you can contact me via
twitter: @high_rigour and I'll personally help you out. We have a strong group
of engineers here who would like to help veterans free of charge.

------
jcoffland
All the resources to learn coding are freely available. Anyone who tells you
otherwise is trying to make a buck.

~~~
philip1209
I disagree.

\- It takes time to make high-quality resources. Teaching is a real job.

\- Asking for money can decrease churn (see: Sunk Cost Fallacy)

\- Programs that include synchronous mentoring cost money, but might be more
effective

~~~
dmix
Those are good points. I would personally narrow it down to the personality
type of the individual. I personally do much better self-learning than in a
class room. I taught myself how to program after dropping out of business
school and it was the best choice I've ever made.

I have a feeling this dichotomy (between self-learning vs classrooms) will be
especially true for coding far more often than most subjects. Also anecdotally
I found a part-time university course in english/writing to be the opposite of
my experience vs learning coding.

That would really be the difference in whether or not I recommended someone
down a particular path. But I also believe this is what makes someone a good
developer - even outside of the learning experience. Basically your interest
and motivation in the subject outside of formal settings. Which drives
talented devs towards OSS projects and learning new languages.

Although not everyone has to be above average at their jobs to be functional.
There are plenty of BigCo programming jobs where you could be generally
disinterested in off hours and still be of value to the organization (see:
I've met a number of Java/C++ devs who would fit this category who work in big
teams and are happy/functional). Those people would probably be better suited
for coding schools. And would probably be a large percentage of those leaving
the military for retraining, so I support the OPs mission.

------
mikekchar
One thing I was surprised about was the price. Can you _really_ get $10K per
student in a boot camp/coding school? Googling I found [0]. It's looking like
about $1K per _week_. What kind of student to teacher ratio do they have? I
assume they also take referral fees with their placement programs?

It occurs to me that I'm in entirely the wrong industry. I'll be honest, I
work with a few people out of boot camps, and I really like them. Having
junior people on your team that are driven and excited about learning is so
beneficial to the overall team dynamic. However, the knowledge deficit is
pretty large and it's pretty easy to fall into the trap of "this is good
enough" (when it isn't) due to a lack of perception of the scope of the field.

Like I said, the people on my team who come from boot camps are really
excellent and I would hire them again in a heartbeat. I just have a hard time
believing these aren't the cream of the crop. I would feel bad taking $1K a
week from general students knowing that they are unlikely to succeed.

[0] [https://www.coursereport.com/blog/coding-bootcamp-cost-
compa...](https://www.coursereport.com/blog/coding-bootcamp-cost-comparison-
full-stack-immersives)

~~~
lucidguppy
Code coming out of the universities isn't that great either. That's why you
need summer internships / coop education. People need to learn how to take PR
criticism the right way - and to learn.

I wonder how much improvement you'd see if you handed out "Clean Code" by
Martin to junior developers.

------
combatentropy
I would recommend a good internship over any other way of learning, and I
would vote for extending the GI bill to help pay for them.

Code school won't turn you into much of a coder, nor will an Ivy League
university. They will establish some sort of foundation, but I think the
benefit-per-month and -per-dollar is not the best. And this is coming from
someone who loved school, mades As and Bs, and graduated from a university.

Books and online resources are not the whole answer either, not for a
beginner. You need a jump start. Maybe school would get you jump started, but
an internship would be even better. And this is coming from someone who read
thick books cover to cover on JavaScript, Apache, and SQL. I seem to do well
with books, not needing a class --- but I wonder if I could have done it
without some solid real-life problems to sink my teeth into. I didn't get an
internship. I got even better: a job where I could learn on the job ---
basically a paid internship.

Humans learn best through apprenticeship, on-the-job demonstration, using more
than one of their five senses, question-and-answer. It was true in the Middle
Ages, and it's true now. We haven't changed.

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a human face-to-face interaction.

------
grogenaut
I guess another question I have is what is a coder camp doing that it costs
more ([http://www.bootcamps.in/san-francisco/coder-
camps/](http://www.bootcamps.in/san-francisco/coder-camps/)) $9,900 for a 9
week (just over 2 months) course, when in state tuition for a year at
University of Washington ([https://admit.washington.edu/costs-and-financial-
aid/total-c...](https://admit.washington.edu/costs-and-financial-aid/total-
cost-of-attendance#freshmen-transfer)) is $10k for around 7 months and out of
state is $34,791 for the same time. Eg are they really equivalent to a #12
ranked computer science school ([https://www.usnews.com/best-
colleges/university-of-washingto...](https://www.usnews.com/best-
colleges/university-of-washington-3798/overall-rankings))?

~~~
arjie
No one at the university is going to get a job after one year. Something like
App Academy has access to companies and provides you with access to
recruiters.

Secondly it's the rapidity that's an advantage. The fact that they're nine
weeks is an advantage. You have to value your time.

------
whb07
I have a couple thoughts on this subject as it directly applies to me. In many
ways the G.I Bill is a coupon thats worth up to $22,000/year + (monthly cost
of rent for every month in school). Many vets end up using the GI Bill just
for the monthly rent check (for SF its like 4k/mo).

I am a strong believer in freedom of choice and personal responsibility. If I
earned that GI Bill i should be able to spend it where I see fit. If you want
to spend all of it in University of Phoenix or ITT tech or Harvard go ahead.
But to baby people and protect them and removing their own personal
responsibility I think is morally wrong and does more harm to the Vet in the
long run.

Maybe blowing their GI Bill in X school/program wasn't the best choice but
hopefully they gain some valuable experience out of it and come out the better
for it.

~~~
telchar
From a civilian perspective, hypothetically speaking, why should we continue
to fund the GI Bill if it's just going to be wasted? In a world where too many
of the veterans get fleeced and get nothing for the money it would be rational
for the rest of us to cut that benefit, perhaps replacing it with nothing or
with a difference benefit like a larger pension. Personal responsibility is
important but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. As a taxpayer I want societal good
to come from my tax dollars, so I feel a responsibility to prevent the
veterans from being taken by scammers and do discourage scamming in general.

~~~
omegaham
Vet here, currently in my junior year of a CS major. I personally view the GI
Bill as similar to a lot of other affirmative action programs - the people who
are best-equipped to take advantage of the programs are the least needy.

I did a term in the Marines as a radio tech for air traffic control. I did all
of it in Yuma, AZ. No deployments, not even a float on a ship. I got out with
a job offer in hand to work at Intel as a microscope tech. Intel offers to pay
for tuition, but I get $22k in BAH and a book stipend per year on top of free
tuition with the GI Bill, so it's a better deal for me to make Uncle Sam pay
for it. My SO is a nurse, so she makes good money as well.

I'm fulfilling my end of the bargain, I guess; I've kept pretty close to a 4.0
GPA while working full-time. But when John Q. Taxpayer thinks of a veteran
going to college on the GI Bill, he probably doesn't think of a POG[1] radio
tech whose parents are both affluent college grads. He thinks of some grunt
who lived in the dirt and got shot at in Afghanistan and is probably the first
person in his family to go to college.

The latter tend not to use their benefits at all, use them as another form of
welfare like the parent poster mentioned, (take some fluffy bullshit classes
and pocket the BAH) or get scammed by some shitty for-profit institution.

Result: Those who use the benefits tend to be those who were _already going to
go to college_ and do well anyway. Of course, if you threaten to canc the
benefits, you're going to get a bunch of very angry veterans and affiliated
people who will yell at you for ripping away that poor grunt's chance to be
the first kid in his family to go to college. Never mind the fact that the
poor grunt got suckered by fucking DeVry or just didn't go at all.

[1] Personnel Other than Grunt.

------
gargalatas
It's obvious that most of you didn't serve to the army of your country. If you
did then you would know their level of IQ, perception, education (science in
general, maths etc). These people have their brains washed in an irreversible
level. Even their educational levels are very low. In the army school (or
whatever it's called) they learn to make war not engineering. And their
perception? Ohh.. It's simply distorted. They cannot translate a single
command they have given with success. But this is army, people on top only
occasionally deal with real problems and they never look back to check from
the moment they give the command to their inferior. Most of the time they deal
with the Shave or the clean boots or the parade!

But hey! They are perfect doing other things! They are good supervisors and
devoted to single tasks outside of the office. And I think that this is the
key to their inner world and the most significant reason for their failure:
Single Tasks + Reality Distortion

~~~
rvdavis
Veteran here. Most of us are a humble bunch, but I've met some incredibly
gifted individuals while serving... and I served in the US Army Infantry. I
would encourage you to rethink your uninformed opinions of us.

~~~
gargalatas
In my country we serve to the army for 1 year totaly free. Yes, without a
payment. I was asking my father to give me 50 bucks to buy a box of cigarettes
and drink a beer in the bar. How I felt? Garbage... But here is the worst
part. We had a commander A and All day we were serving ourselves. We were
taking care of the gardens, making parade, straw broom stuff for hours and
many other stupid things with very little education. Every day (and night
ofcourse) we had service in the watchtower and every second day we were free
and we could go out to town. But some day another commander came. The first
day he said to us (he was just arrived in the camp and we were there for
months) that the services were many and probably we would not have many "free"
days. suddenly we started to have free of service days every 15 days! The law
which they were abusing was saying that for the needs of the battalion we
could make as many services in a row as it was needed. 15-20 days in a row for
1 day out. And this is a very small example of what army means. What was the
diff from Commander A to B? You can spend many many hours thinking but noone
can give me back that 1 lost year with all those people. I know them very
well. First I thought that only my country's people were like that. But then I
realized that everywhere is the same. "Incredibly gifted individuals" are
always living in their world. I was lucky to meet some of them. They didn't
even know what an FFT is and we were serving in the electronic intelligence.

------
eclecticsceptic
USAA, a financial institution made by the military community for the military
community, has a program called Vetfit = veterans for IT. It puts them through
an intensive 14 week bootcamp.

Perhaps there's not enough knowledge about this program but 1/4 of USAA
employees (~31,000) are vets.

------
austenallred
I run a code bootcamp, and I honestly think it's a very good thing that the GI
bill doesn't apply to code schools. At least, not until we're controlling for
outcomes somehow.

Here's why:

As soon as GI bills (or any federal funding) enter the education space the
product and outcomes no longer matter to the most ambitious (/greedy)
companies; all you have to do is capture those dollars before someone else.
The product doesn't actually matter in a financial sense because you have
person A spending person B's money.

I think there's a solution, and the person this article was written about
needs to be given a chance, but there needs to be some serious curation. Some
online code bootcamps have graduation rates (that's _graduation_ , not even
hiring rates) of ~30%. And that's of people who paid $8,000 of their own
money. Think what they would be if they were just soaking up GI bill money.
Candidly the space is full of garbage schools that don't teach very much
already.

Look at for-profit education lead gen for accredited universities and you'll
see how quickly the race to the bottom happens. ITT Tech is the most recent
example, but there's something messed up about the fact that you can sell a
hot swap of a potential student on the phone for $500+. It's just an influx of
money that needs to be captured from not-too-discerning spenders, and with _no
connection to outcome_. That's bad for all involved.

Want to hear something else messed up? One of the most lucrative ways to drive
those education leads is from "jobs." Post a fake job, turn someone down,
then, "Oh it looks like you don't qualify for job x (that may or may not have
existed), but you can attend y for free because there are grants/loans
available so do that instead." Farm out those leads to a overseas call center
that's paid based on how fast they can get people the biggest loans, and
profit. It's a federally funded scam and a wasteland of money the poor and
uneducated (or taxpayer) are on the hook for, while the companies best at
marketing make a killing. I can't even type because I get so mad thinking
about it.

So I think GI bills should apply to code schools, but if and only if they meet
outcomes x y z. And we're not there yet.

As an aside, if there's a vet (or anyone that can't afford it) that wants to
learn to code please reach out to me. We're going to be launching a six month
online computer science degree soon that's free up front and a percentage of
income only after you get a high-paying job. If you don't get there we fail
and we get nothing. It's a lot of "credit" risk for us, and you'll have to pay
a percentage back, but it's the best we can do, and it's only fair to align
incentives. Email in bio.

------
faragon
Learn to code requires time. From my experience, after basic education (e.g.
before starting High School), with 6 hours per week, during 6 months (144
hours), with a teacher and a easy language (e.g. BASIC or Python) you can
accomplish students to have a sound base, so more advanced programming can be
put on top of that afterwards. The point of few hours per week is because of
the brain requiring time for assimilating knowledge. I.e. unless you have some
basis, e.g. knowing a previous computer language, or some similar experience,
pushing full-time for learning programming would burn the student.

In addition to the "learn to code", there is the case of "knowing to code, but
learning new stuff", which can be frustrating, too, if not focused properly.
E.g. computer languages work pretty much the same for number computations,
algorithms on data (lists, graphs, trees, etc.), so if you know the language
X, you'll be able to move quickly to language Y. The problem is when "moving
from X to Y" involves more than algorithmics: e.g. if Y involves computer
graphics, and you had no previous computer graphics experience, the handicap
would be learning computer graphics, not the language Y. Another example, if
you're an experienced C/C++ programmer you can take easily on Node.js server
stuff, but not on web-client programming, not because of Javascript, but
because of requiring learning many additional elements (DOM, CSS, etc.).

------
OliverJones
People who go to coding boot camps often get coding jobs. Many coding schools
deliver what they promise their students, which is a job in return for their
fee and the student's hard work.

It's silly that VA benefits can be used for intensive short courses in for-
profit plumbing and truck-driving schools but not coding schools.

This is a screwup that needs to be fixed. The VA has screwups in it. SNAFU
(situation normal, all f---d up) is a military acronym. They fix SNAFUs when
they get pressure from Congress.

Of course there's a history of sleazeball entrepreneurs figuring out how to
get paid with VA benefits in return for bad education. That's no good. It was
already happening at the dawn of the computer age, and it's happening now. It
needs to be dealt with, ongoing.

There's also a history of people being trained for work without the aptitude
to do it well. That's also a waste. It happens in plumbing and truck driving
too.

Making it hard for veterans to use their benefits to learn to code is not the
way to deal with these problems.

Plus our industry can use lots more skilful hard working people.

You could write to your congresspeople and bring this article to their
attention. I did.

------
rubyfan
Is there any data out there on how successful code schools are in terms of job
placement and more importantly longer term success in hands-on coding (non-
managerial)?

I've always had a perception (perhaps wrongly) that people who code are
somewhat natural at it and don't need to be taught. Honestly I've never met
anyone that was any good that was taught to code in school or by a book.

------
dkarapetyan
What we really need are trade schools supported by the community and the state
like community colleges. For-profit education like for-profit healthcare is
kinda uncivilized and backwards. I think all bootcamps are for-profit so this
opens up plenty of room for someone to actually do the right thing and set up
a non-profit bootcamp.

------
giardini
This is nuts. Only a small percentage of people can learn to effectively
generate code. Thinking that veterans can be turned into developers is absurd
- they'll get code-monkeys instead, with a few exceptions.

I don't believe that, at this time in the USA or in the future, education will
save people in software development from unemployment. The only thing that
will do that is having some smarts. And if you're smart, you already know what
to do (for you). One of those things to do is head _away_ from software
development if you're a noobie. At this time there are more developers
worldwide than ever before, work continues to be offshored and developer wages
are declining in the USA. You'd almost have to be insane to try to get a job
writing code.

~~~
lithos
I haven't seen a Nuke fail to learn to program enough to get stuff done, and
the two that stuck with it were annoyed when they realized they were going
faster by staying off the internet. (Though this is learning for a hobby).

They're going to also do better in a tech interview than most programmers.
Mostly because they've survived a program where they have a half dozen or so
knowledge interviews a year (that to me were more stressful than my actual job
interviews).

Though most rates don't remotely compare to nukes, and nukes have more sure
ways of getting SV like pay than tossing in with IT developers.

~~~
giardini
But US Navy nuclear power school grads ("Nukes") are not typical veterans. I
should know, I've been lucky enough to have had several as bosses and co-
workers. They were first-rate and far too valuable to use as software
developers. Their knowledge of naval matters was much more important.

------
ank2013
Qualifying for GI Bill funding is a long long process, and very challenging
for newer organizations. I'm involved with Code Platoon, a non-profit coding
school for veterans based in Chicago, that is about to graduate its second
class ("platoon"). It's a robust program, at 20 weeks, plus optional
internship placement at the end to keep learning - so I think pretty ideal.
Companies sponsor 80% of the tuition cost, so the students pay only $2500 out
of pocket. Finding sponsor companies is inherently a limiting factor on the
program though - GI Bill funding would allow more veterans to participate.

------
40acres
I don't see the need for Code Schools. Folks can learn almost anything using
the resources of the internet.

Provide the vets with books on coding for a specialized curriculum for fee and
give them some specialized job prep. Many places would love to hire Vets.

~~~
rebase
Quite frankly, if a person has any sort of formal education in their
background such as college or even taking coding classes in high school, they
are then entirely unqualified to offer such an opinion. It may be easy to
learn new languages online due to having learned the foundations, but unless
you can say you learned all the foundations online, this type of comment isnt
helpful. As many others have mentioned learning is a science and it takes a
lot of work to structure learning in a digestible manner.

~~~
40acres
I'm speaking from this perspective, I dropped out of school and barely made it
to my CS classes. I learned on the job through internships and resources
online.

You can test the vets on the knowledge and grant them special certifications
that can single out the ones who ha ve tested out of the curriculum.

------
nealmydataorg
We can help (free of charge) few veterans to code. Our startup provides low
code platform to build custom business applications from custom workflow
requirements. It is like building custom software from Lego components and it
will be easier to learn by using Lego components as opposed to building Lego
components. The end result of effort of coding will be custom business
application which can help veterans land job. Please contact us by using email
found in my profile. Thanks, Neal

------
mgirdley
Few code schools accept GI Bill because it requires them to have been in
business for 2 years prior to applying to accept it. There's little stopping
schools from getting approved, but the problem is most haven't enough track
record or get denied when the VA investigates them.

------
yogeshp
There are free video lectures available online for every topic in Computer
Science-

[https://github.com/Developer-Y/cs-video-
courses](https://github.com/Developer-Y/cs-video-courses)

Hope it helps anyone who wants to learn Computer Science.

------
prh8
> the military didn’t recognize code schools as legitimate enterprises

So they feel the same as a lot of us

------
Kenji
Nobody who is not mentally disabled and owns a PC with an internet connection
"wants to learn to code but can't". What about showing initiative and teach
yourself with one of the infinite resources available on the internet?

------
mythrwy
Learning to code is all nice and fine.

Getting someone to hire to you to code may be a different story.

------
NietTim
Anyone with a computer, or heck, a tablet, can learn to code.

------
jlarocco
"Coding schools" are a sham, and I'm glad they're not covered by the GI Bill.

There's nothing stopping these veterans from going to a regular university,
college, or community college and getting a real degree in computer science,
software engineering, or a related field.

~~~
RandomOpinion
> _There 's nothing stopping these veterans from going to a regular
> university, college, or community college and getting a real degree in
> computer science, software engineering, or a related field._

Nothing? Have a little empathy, buddy. While I have some sympathy for your
opinion of coding bootcamps, just bear in mind that it's not easy giving up
something you've been doing for a couple of decades and going back to college
with people half you age and then having to restart your career in an entirely
new profession. The mental flexibility one has when one is young just isn't
there anymore for these individuals.

~~~
nradov
Citation needed. Where is your proof that mental flexibility is inversely
correlated with age?

~~~
Tenobrus
[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278262606...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278262606000431)

Let me know if you can't access the full article/the abstract is not enough.

------
smelendez
Why don't community colleges move into this area?

~~~
metaphorm
a lot of community colleges already have courses like this. here is an
example: [http://www.bmcc.cuny.edu/cis/](http://www.bmcc.cuny.edu/cis/)

it's essentially an accelerated vocational training program designed to feed
in to either entry-level IT jobs, or upgrading to a proper Computer Science
degree track. this is common in community colleges, afaik. there are multiple
schools in New York City that do this anyway.

I guess the major difference is length of the program. community colleges aim
for 2 year programs. coding boot camps aim for 12 week programs.

------
dba7dba
Allowing for-profit coding bootcamp to teach veterans coding is a very bad
idea. Some business types will inevitably try to use it as a get rich quick
scheme and waste the resources/time of everyone.

Here are some thoughts that I'd like to share I went through the path of
starting out as a college grad with a degree in Humanities and got into
IT/support/light-coding.

 _Dump the misconceptions:_ I'm sure soldiers smile when they encounter
civilians who are completely clueless about military and everything else that
goes with it. Same with the startups and coding career. Everything you
read/see on media/TV about startups is pretty much garbage. They may get the
personality, haircut, fashion, and the ambiance right (Silicon Valley), but
that's not what being a coder is about.

 _Are you cut out for it?:_ Some are just not cut out to be a
coder/programmer. This is not meant as a disrespect. Not everyone is cut out
to be a soldier. I tried really hard to convince an ex Air Force officer (not
army, but a desk jockey from AF) to try out a career in IT (not even coding
but server/systems management) as he was leaving the service, but he had been
forced to do some of it while in service and had bad experience. So he was
dead set against it. But one of my ex managers was an enlisted man in
Navy/Airforce (not sure, but not army) when I worked as a server/desktop
technician and he was good as a server/linux admin.

You need to find out if you have the aptitude, patience and passion for
IT/code career. Especially with coding because you will have to constantly
learn new tools/languages/etc to keep up, all on your own time (nights,
weekends). If you have problem with it, you'd be better off not starting it.
This is especially true if you don't have a CS degree. With a CS degree, an
employer may hire you even if you don't know the programming language used in
their product, because they think you can learn quickly enough. With no CS
degree, you have to have concrete examples to show that you can learn and do
the job, which means even longer personal time spent for self training
sessions.

I am in the process of switching from Desktop Support into coding, and I know
I am spending easily 10 - 20 hrs a week (thanks to RescueTime) on my personal
computer watching/reading online courses and typing out the tutorials. I have
a full time job and wife/kids. And I spend 2-3 hrs every weekday and/or entire
Saturday on my computer each week, learning/practicing coding and everything
else (git, HTML/CSS, some bash, some database) related that I realize I need
to know. And I am not really advancing fast enough, for lack of time, and I've
been in IT for years.

 _Who usually goes to coding bootcamp?:_ Coding bootcamp is really for someone
who already has enough knowledge in coding. Someone who went through a coding
school commented on HN that it seemed most already had spent time/energy on
their own to learn quite a bit, and joined the bootcamp to get that final
push/proof that they can show to potential employer.

Consider a coding bootcamp something like a training school a newly minted SF
operator attends after he already proved himself in the initial Army bootcamp
and years of service as a regular soldier. If you have not already spent
substantial time (and actually learning) with computer, a coding bootcamp will
mostly likely be a waste of time/money.

 _But you should still consider it seriously:_ But here's the thing. Starting
the training to be a coder/server-admin these days costs almost nothing,
unlike the training required to be a jet fighter pilot or a doctor or a
lawyer. To be a pilot/doctor/lawyer, you HAVE to get into a training program
and find someone to pay (or pay yourself) for the instructors/equipment.

But starting a career in IT nothing is like it. All you need is a computer,
internet, and time. Half of the coders surveyed on HN (or Stackoverflow?)
stated they were self-taught programmers. Of course many others may have
started out but gave up. It would be dishonest to not bring that up.

So how do you get that initial start and experience to start the journey to be
a coder/IT worker?

 _So what to do?:_ Research. There are many different types of coding, like
HTML/CSS. Or coding backend. Or create an iOS app. I think Mr. In the article,
Mr. Molina trying his hand first on iOS app was ill advised. He should've
first learned about HTML/CSS or bash scripting, not to be an expert but at
least know how's it's done. Read a little about different jobs, like tutorials
for a few days to get a sense of direction.

Spend time on job postings like indeed.com and see what skills/tools are in
demand. Spend time on HN and read, to soak up the culture/ambiance, not too
much though. Not to be a pretender, but to start thinking like a coder.

Find time, lots of big chunks of time. Coding/hacking/building-a-computer all
require hours of continuous tinkering, changing, testing. Not like 1 hr here
and there but like half a day, or all of your evening. I find myself most
productive when I can spend bigger chunks of time working on the same thing.

Watch how you spend your time. Use tools like RescueTime or other tools to
keep track of how much time you spend. You will be surprised how quickly time
passes when you start watching an episode of something on Netflix. Just stop
it, until you get a jog as a coder.

Find office like environment. This is necessary especially if you are just
starting out. Trying to do it alone at home will inevitably lead to
netflix/xbox/etc. I've made that very mistake. And I recommend against
Starbucks. You want to maximize productivity, and starbucks is not the place.

If you can spare $200 - $500 a month, try out co-working spaces like WeWork or
NextSpace. It will make you sit down and stare at the laptop screen at
minimum. I used the service in between jobs to learn some very basic html/css
and it helped. I didn't get a job as HTML/CSS coder but it definitely beat
trying to do it at home. Try cheapest plan which usually allows you to use any
open desk. If you can only spend evening/weekend, try reserved desk/room. More
expensive but you can leave external monitor to go with your laptop, boosting
your productivity.

Go to meetups. I personally don't because I'm an introvert, but attending a
few doesn't hurt imho.

Write out things you want to learn. Doesn't matter whether you stick with it
or not. Adjust it if necessary. But write it out so that you know what you are
doing now.

Use Google Doc to take notes as you try out commands, tutorials. Spending time
writing out what you learned really reinforces. Especially useful in the
beginning.

The path to learning anything in IT/coding will be really circuitous. Let's
say you want to put up a HTML/CSS website on a VPS server like at
DigitalOcean. But before you even touch the server, you may have to learn
about vim, ssh, rsync, ftp, Domain registration, yum install, etc. It may be
days/weeks before you actually get to do what you initially set out to do. But
that's the fun of being in this field.

Try setting up a study group, virtual or physical. Use free/cheap tools like
Slack, Zoom, codeshare.io, etc to ask questions, help stay focused.

 _Negatives you have to know:_ Ageism is real. If you never heard of it,
search on google and read about it. You are considered over the hill at 40.
Many are sharing on HN that recruiters are not returning calls because of
perceived age on the resume. I'm near that age and experiencing it myself.

You will have to constantly spend own time learning new things. It may even
feel like you have to get a new associate degree every 3 - 5 years. I think no
such issue exists in the law enforcement, firefighting and such industries.

But if you like computers, now is the best time.

------
CamperBob2
_However, I find your insult to Trump voters gratuitous and unnecessary._

Sorry, I disagree. It's time to start calling out these people and holding
them responsible for their actions, which affect us all.

Voting for a demagogue needs to carry a heavy social cost, or nothing will
change.

~~~
dmix
> Voting for a demagogue needs to carry a heavy social cost, or nothing will
> change.

To me this means anyone who found either top US candidate as a viable option,
so am I supposed to dismiss the majority of Americans merely because they
voted? Personally this was an off-topic and non-relevant aside that served no
purpose but to start flamewars. Politics is a mind-killer.

Not to mention hardly everyone who visits HN is even from the US and those
outside of it (in western countries who have experienced stable/functional
political systems) are very likely looking at the whole thing as a sidehow
rather than who one voted for as some deep analogous reference to the topic at
hand.

~~~
CalChris
> Politics is a mind-killer.

If you think this is so then don't talk politics. But if you're asking us to
be Good Germans that's not going to happen.

~~~
dmix
Shoehorn your politics into conversations all you like. That's why we have
downvote buttons on HN.

------
dalacv
Forget code... they should learn to bubble. (Bubble.is)

------
ar15saveslives
> I could not use my GI Bill to go to code school. That was the number one
> roadblock

Nobody needs a "code school" to learn how to write code.

~~~
xatan_dank
True, but what does "writing code" mean? If it means learning some basic
JavaScript syntax and writing a small text adventure, that isn't hard at all.
Learning the mathematical fundamentals of CS on the other hand is a great deal
harder, and getting up to speed with what technologies are considered standard
is extremely difficult.

~~~
E6300
You're not going to learn much CS from a code school.

~~~
sidlls
Many, if not most, software jobs require very little CS knowledge. At such
jobs the ability to compare numbers and read a chart (a matrix of algorithms
and data structures vs. time vs. space complexity) will cover almost every
possible use case.

"Mid-level development as a skilled trade" jobs, for example.

~~~
Apocryphon
And yet, most software jobs interview for CS knowledge. Maybe there should be
code camps for interview CS knowledge.

~~~
sidlls
Yes, and most of those interviews are terrible.

