
Why the Seattle Mystery Bookshop Must Close - fern12
http://seattlemysteryblog.typepad.com/seattle_mystery/2017/09/why-the-seattle-mystery-bookshop-must-close.html
======
davis
> When movies on cassette became practical, think of what it would have done
> to the Hollywood model if movies could be rented at the same time they hit
> theaters allowing people to see a movie for far cheaper than going to a
> theater?

> That’s what publishers did. They allowed a far less expensive version of
> their books to be available right away, undercutting the sale of hardcovers
> with the cheaper e-version

This is a fraught analogy and in a way shows the lack of forward thinking of
lots of people in the book and publishing industry.

The problem is that from a customer perspective, an ebook == hardcover in
nearly all ways. It has the same story, it is written by the same author, you
can read it at home or on the bus. There's no difference. In fact, some might
argue ebook > hardcover since it takes up no space and you can use a Kindle
and all the features it has.

Watching a movie in a movie theater is about the experience of being with
others with amazing sound and video quality as well as the actual movie. So
movie theater > movie at home for most people.

Forward thinking would be the Steam way which Amazon has tried to do with
ebooks: sell for less but make up for it with huge volume. Yet publishers
often price ebooks higher or equal to physical copies.

It's sad to see this bookstore go and I wish I would have visited it since I
live in Seattle. But this is a pretty poor analysis on the "changes in the
over-all economy".

~~~
secabeen
>The problem is that from a customer perspective, an ebook == hardcover in
nearly all ways. It has the same story, it is written by the same author, you
can read it at home or on the bus. There's no difference. In fact, some might
argue ebook > hardcover since it takes up no space and you can use a Kindle
and all the features it has.

The problem is that despite that being so, ebooks also have zero incremental
costs. People recognize that, and so they resent eBooks costing as much as
hardbacks. If eBooks were only and explicitly > hardbacks, people would
happily pay more, but there's more to it than just value.

~~~
kasey_junk
> The problem is that despite that being so, ebooks also have zero incremental
> costs. People recognize that, and so they resent eBooks costing as much as
> hardbacks.

Thats more of a perception problem than an actual fact. It turns out that
hosting/supporting ebooks _does_ have incremental costs and people
dramatically over estimate how much the price of a hardback is the physical
copy. If they just priced the difference in physical production vs ebook
support into the price, I think most people would be surprised at how little
the discount would be.

Now there is a difference of course but the greater part of the price of a
book comes from the creation of the intellectual property (including
subsidizing all those books that don't get sold) and the sales process.

The bigger issue is that publishers have _lots_ of expertise in selling
physical books (100s of years) and ebooks are brand new. Further, the biggest
platform for ebooks is run by a company that is not in anyway aligned with the
publishers business interests and is in fact a competitor. This is not true of
traditional book sales channels.

~~~
zzalpha
_Thats more of a perception problem than an actual fact. It turns out that
hosting /supporting ebooks does have incremental costs and people dramatically
over estimate how much the price of a hardback is the physical copy._

The publishing industry can blame themselves for that.

Back before ebooks, a typical paperback would run between 8-12 dollars whereas
a hardcover would easily be 20 dollars or more.

This gave the perception that printing and binding is a significant portion of
book price.

Of course, we all know that's crap. In practice, they were simply charging a
premium markup for a product that was perceived as being superior.

But now who can blame the consumer for having the same basic expectation, but
in the opposite direction, when ebooks are considered?

~~~
tptacek
I think most adults understood that what you were paying for in a hardcover
new edition was early access.

~~~
zzalpha
I have absolutely no reason to believe your claim. What's your evidence?

In fact, it doesn't make sense: it's not like hard covers get cheaper over
time.

~~~
tptacek
The fact that paperbacks didn't come out until months after the hardcover came
out? I mean, this is what my parents told me the deal with hardcover books was
in the 1980s, but it's not like it's hard to figure it out.

~~~
zzalpha
Fair enough, obviously early access is _part_ of the price differential during
the initial release.

But are you claiming form factor is not part of the price _at all_? If so, how
do you explain it for books that have both versions actively in print?

------
AdamJacobMuller
While I find this article sad, it's ultimately inevitable as far as I see it.

I read a lot, and I enjoy collecting books, but I ceased buying physical books
a long time ago. I've started backfilling my ebook collection based on my old
physical collections. At some point, I will be able to find digital
replacements for 99% of my physical book collections and I will eventually
find a decent way to digitize the rest. Ultimately, digital books are just
better for me. I can pull my Kindle out of my bag and have a copy of every
book I've ever read and access to basically anything I might want to read. I
may mourn the loss of paper books, I absolutely do mourn the loss of
bookstores but ultimately ebooks are just a far superior product. The fact
that they are cheaper doesn't personally factor into the equation to me.

Ultimately, I think the digital print industry is just shaking off vestiges
that the physical print industry required and the digital economy no longer
requires. In a few (more like 10-20) years the amount of value-add coming from
the publishers to writers is going to drift close enough to zero that I think
the whole industry will go closer to self-publishing and become far more
egalitarian.

You'll pay someone to proof your book, someone to (digitally) typeset it, and
someone to upload it to the top N digital distribution platforms. (Apple
iBooks, Amazon, ?? who else) and the revenue cut from that will be far, far
lower than what today's publishers get. You can obviously hire a publicist and
have them do that facet of things too.

~~~
na85
Contrarily, I buy physical books and have stopped using my kindle entirely.

I prefer to own the book, and not merely a license to use a DRM'ed instance of
it.

~~~
mcguire
And then there's non-fiction, which never really works right as an ebook.

~~~
freddie_mercury
I have hundreds of non-fiction ebooks. It works just fine most of the time.
Non-fiction doesn't mean "programming books". The vast majority of non-fiction
is plain text with no graphics, maps, or special content whatsoever.

~~~
mcguire
Footnotes, weirdly, always seem to be a problem. Also, paging back to find a
poorly remembered reference is hard.

~~~
ghaff
Footnotes is one of my complaints about Kindle non-fiction. And personally I
love using them. Not in the authoritative documentation sense but in the
parenthetical commentary that you might be interested in but which I don’t
really want to break the flow of writing to provide.

A lot of non-fiction works ok on Kindle but it can be a bit hit or miss. I do
generally prefer ebooks though just to decrease clutter at home and because I
do a lot of long form reading while traveling.

------
Ice_cream_suit
"Then, too, there was me. I don’t have the easiest personality and I rub
some/many people the wrong way. I can be too impatient and prickly and more
than a few people have referred to me as a curmudgeon. I am all of that. I
have always known that I have been the shop’s greatest drawback and I know it
contributed, in some way, to the fall in sales."

This is the reason that I have not shopped at bookshops for nearly 20 years.

Service at small bookshops varies from indifferent to rude.

I almost always receive polite and helpfull service when I buy a $2 coffee or
a $15 collection of groceries at Aldi.

Why are bookshop staff so indifferent and unhelpful when I am buying $50 of
books ?

I would rather interact with a mindless algorithm than with the staff at
bookshops.

------
georgeoliver
I thought this was a sharp observation:

> All those new millionaires and billionaires might be good for investment
> bankers and real estate developers, but they can only buy and read so many
> books.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
It is astute, but they can only wear so many shirts too.

I suppose the trick is that same, sell them something you've convinced them is
appropriate for "someone of their standing" \- something overpriced - a first
edition, with a mounting case, second reading copy, and platinum plated
personalised bookmark?

------
mdlowman
I'm deeply saddened to hear that the Seattle Mystery Bookshop is closing. This
feels like something easily missed in today's automation-based economy; the
ability to go to an expert and get quality recommendations is not to be
missed. Seattle Mystery Bookshop was only one of many excellent book stores in
the Seattle area, but it seems that their number is diminishing by the day. I
can only assume that that trend holds firm in other cities, and we are the
poorer for it.

~~~
lighthazard
Is the major benefit an expert to give you recommendations? How is this
different from any online medium like Reddit or Facebook where an expert can
do the same thing, without a local constraint?

~~~
egypturnash
Let’s say I want to read some new fantasy.

I go to /r/fantasy and ask for recommendations. I will probably get someone
recommending goddamn Malazan* no matter how applicable it is to what I asked
for. I will also get a lot of recs that are just a title, maybe a title and an
author, with no further info. Some authors who hang out there will pimp their
own books. Maybe someone recommends Name Of The Wind and a mini-flamewar about
book 3 taking a decade and counting happens. I end up with a lot of unfiltered
recommendations, and an overwhelming amount of research to do on them.

I go to a good bookstore. I can wander into the SF section and find a whole
bunch of staff recommendation cards on the shelves next to things they’ve
loved. Maybe there’s a list of Hugo and Nebula winners. Maybe some new stuff
the average reader hasn’t heard of. Maybe a “if you liked THIS THING then try
THIS OTHER THING” card on the shelf points me to something new. I’ve got a
fairly small selection of recommendations, curated by people whose job is
partially to keep up with new fiction and recommend the great new stuff. And
maybe something outside my genre comfort zone catches my eye on the way to the
SF/F section...

Also it is TONS easier to get an idea of just how long a book is when you’re
picking one up off the shelves. One cover image and _maybe_ a little tiny text
note of how big the file is on Amazon’s page is a lot less information about
the sheer size of the story I’m considering picking up.

* /r/fantasy loves this turgid-ass sprawling account of someone’s D&D campaign, I finally tried reading the first book and gave up after three chapters, then got told that “everyone knows it doesn’t pick up until book 3” and life is way too short for that IMHO...

\----

 __TL;DR: __Reddit ain 't gonna give you professional recommendations. Reddit
will give you a bunch of recommendations of stuff twentysomething guys with a
ton of free time on their hands like.

~~~
lighthazard
Yea, but couldn't I find an expert amongst the group of random Internet people
posting on these places? What makes a bookstore employee more knowledgeable or
an expert?

You've mentioned recommendations and exploration but things like Goodreads
have similar tools - you can follow users who have similar 'likes' as you, you
can read lists by people who have similar tastes, and you can get
recommendations from the 'pros'.

I'm sorry I mentioned Reddit. I really did mean any online medium, Goodreads,
random book forums, anything else.

------
dsr_
I can only point to one quibble:

 __*

Those who have benefited from the exposure and attention of little shops, who
are so grateful for our help launching them into bestsellerdom suddenly do not
wish to use their power and leverage to help those who gave them attention and
benefits. “I contacted sales and all the tip-ins went to Barnes and Noble. I
have no control over that…” Well who the hell has more control that a major
bestselling author?

 __*

As far as I can tell, neither Tom Clancy nor Stephen King have any control
over their publishers' marketing departments; certainly nobody less exalted
can hope to do anything with them.

~~~
na85
Tom Clancy died in 2013.

~~~
valuearb
These big shot writers always have some excuse.

------
rossdavidh
I'm sure it's very sad for fans of this bookstore, but the part about e-books
being partly responsible seems off, since the share of book sales which are
e-books plateaued in about 2012 and has even started to slump:
[https://www.extremetech.com/electronics/248719-e-reader-
sale...](https://www.extremetech.com/electronics/248719-e-reader-sales-slack-
treeware-tablets-reclaim-market-share)

~~~
Turing_Machine
The share of book sales which are ebooks _from major publishers_ has declined,
largely because they're, yup, overpricing the ebooks to avoid cutting into
print sales.

Indy is doing fine.

------
wink
Meh. One more point.

> For the last decades, the entire publishing world – bookshops, publishers,
> authors – had been supported by huge post-WWII generations who moved up
> through their jobs and had the extra money to spoil themselves and their
> children, and to begin collecting books, collecting hardcovers.

Former _avid_ book buyer here, now still a book buyer. I've always detested
hardcovers, and not only because of the price, mostly because what I read is
very often a series of novels or a range of different novels from one
publisher - they look nice on the shelf. Hardcovers are always big, bulky and
not the same size. Also I like holding paperbacks a lot more.

Also what others said, what about the shenanigans of having to wait for a
paperback release? If I _am_ already more the target market of preferring most
books on paper than as an ebook, don't annoy me even more by having to wait
for the format I have chosen to prefer 20 years ago.

------
brandonmenc
> That’s what publishers did. They allowed a far less expensive version of
> their books to be available right away, undercutting the sale of hardcovers
> with the cheaper e-version.

And...?

Is the author seriously trying to convince me that getting books into the
hands of poorer people immediately is a bad thing?

> Those who couldn’t afford the hardcover price knew they could get it at the
> library or get it in paperback in a year.

All so that a funky little book stores can exist as middlemen?

I'm sorry, but as much as I loved the small independent book (and music, etc)
store, that model is done - and if the result is that books are cheaper, and
more widely accessible, it's a fair trade.

~~~
adventured
Indie book stores are doing fine actually. The model is closer to thriving
than done.

[https://www.voanews.com/a/indie-booksellers-hold-steady-
toug...](https://www.voanews.com/a/indie-booksellers-hold-steady-tough-us-
retail-market/3878105.html)

[http://publishingperspectives.com/2016/01/independent-
bookst...](http://publishingperspectives.com/2016/01/independent-bookstores-
thrive-in-digital-age/)

[http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_edgy_optimist/201...](http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_edgy_optimist/2014/09/independent_bookstores_rising_they_can_t_compete_with_amazon_and_don_t_have.html)

[http://theweek.com/articles/573874/4-reasons-why-
independent...](http://theweek.com/articles/573874/4-reasons-why-independent-
bookstores-are-thriving)

~~~
warbucks
This is what I don't understand about this blog post. It goes directly against
this narrative that I've been hearing for a while now (and which you are
pointing out with sources), that independent bookstores are thriving.

What makes them different than this place? I've never been to the store in the
article. Maybe its because they're still trying to sell new books, and the
thriving stores are all selling used books?

So many people I know (anecdotal, for sure) seem to still prefer to read
physical books. Even younger people, in their early 20s. Beyond that, some
people will still want to collect the physical representation of something
they really love.

Certainly, this will not be as many people as before ebooks were around.
Still, there has to be more to the story with this one store. It doesn't seem
to add up.

~~~
SomeStupidPoint
That whole block is located just off of the core part of downtown Seattle (3
blocks from city hall and muni tower; 1 from Smith Tower), but currently
filled with little shops in a small building. A coffee shop next door moved
across the street to expand and switch from a short building to a slightly
taller, somewhat newer one.

Downtown Seattle has pushed about as far North as it can, and is starting to
expand South (past the government and banking towers) as well. Most of these
shops are just going to shuffle into new spaces or be replaced by other little
shops in new spaces. It's unfortunate, because the neighborhood is old, but
there's limits to how much poorly developed land we can hold in the core of
downtown. I expect everything from downtown to the stadiums is going to become
towers just like SLU did -- because the core of the city needs the space.
We'll probably keep a touristy section along the water (just like now) and the
core of Pioneer Square, Smith Tower itself, etc. But these kinds of small
shops need to move or find a business model that fits with the new density.

I might feel differently if it were a park than a bookshop -- but I don't
really feel that bad that a small, niche store got pushed out of the core of
downtown so the property could develop.

------
exabrial
I quite enjoyed riding the bus in London. I can't say that for many other
cities. It was very clean safe and the integration with Google Maps was
awesome.

------
moonka
Wow, Seattle's been all over HN the last couple days. Not that I mind, but
it's a little strange.

~~~
usr1106
Right, noticed the same. How many programmers are there in Redmond? Some of
them might be HN contributors...

------
Gargoyle
The employees can undergo retraining for a higher-skill industry and move to
where the jobs are.

~~~
scandox
And you can go to charm school and learn to conceal your obtuse cruelty behind
an urbane facade.

~~~
farnsworth
I read it as sarcasm/satire of a typical HN position - impossible to tell.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Poe's Law is a bitch these days.

