
How Moving Is Linked to Losing Friends - prostoalex
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/02/disposable-friendships-in-a-mobile-world/470718/?utm_source=QuartzFB&amp;single_page=true
======
brightball
A lot of that is how we create friendships. Growing up in an area, you have
many years with the same people. In college, you have many years with the same
people. After you graduate, even if you're in the same area there will be
multiple phases to friendship.

1\. You're going to be working and single/married but still have plenty of
time to spend after hours and on weekends with friends. The crux comes from
income disparities that might prevent some friends from spending money on
activities that others are willing to do.

2\. As soon as kids happen, the group dynamics shift. The parents are often
times going to be exhausted for a few years (especially if both are working),
going out requires hiring a babysitter, inviting people over involves working
around the kids or trying to avoid waking them. We host our friends all the
time just because it's easier, but it's very different. Overtime this shift in
dynamics becomes a big deal.

3\. The solution for getting together with friends when you have small kids is
other people with kids the same age who can play together. This causes another
significant shift in the dynamic as you start to create new friends with
parents from your neighborhood, school, church, scouts, etc. If you're in an
new area and many people in these groups already know each other, then you're
going to be responsible for making the effort to get to know them.

~~~
pc86
> _If you 're in an new area and many people in these groups already know each
> other, then you're going to be responsible for making the effort to get to
> know them._

I never understood this mindset. From a sheer work perspective, it's easier
for ten people in an established group to make a small effort to the new
person than it is for that new person to make the same (or even less) effort
toward all ten. And from a psychological perspective, they're already in an
unfamiliar environment and likely without any friends or family. It's much
more humane for the established folks to reach out to the new people.

~~~
Jtsummers
I have about twenty friends that I regularly do things with. But only 3 of us
organize 90% of our activities. A new person is a burden on that core group.
We try, but some folks make it hard to bring them in. If they don't rsvp, or
use nonstandard communication methods it makes it hard. They don't have to
reach out, but they have to respond or after a while we quit trying.

------
hkmurakami
For this reason, I tell college applicants that there's value to going to a
school in the economic area you expect to work in (straightforward if it's LA,
SV, or NY). Most of your friends are going to stay in that area. I lost most
of my college friends when I moved back to the west coast.

~~~
quanticle
Is that actually a good idea, though? Schools in California and New York tend
to be quite expensive. Moreover, it's arguably much safer for people, to move
after college, when they have more maturity and an improved economic outlook
than it is for them to move far away from home just after leaving high school.
If a high-schooler gets into trouble in college, it's much better for them if
their college is a couple of hundred miles from their parents and their
existing social network, as opposed to being a couple of thousand miles away.
It's much easier for kids who are marginal to get that extra support and
attention, which can mean the difference between dropping out and graduating.

Certainly, in my case, I'm very glad that I chose to move away _after_
college, rather than before. I had a hard time in university, and the extra
support I got from my parents was crucial in getting me out with a diploma. I
would not have had that support if I'd moved to California or New York for my
computer science degree.

~~~
yardie
I'm not so sure. I went to uni in a different state, 1000 miles from home. I
was also one of those marginal students (low income, poor schools, poor
neighborhood, single parent, etc). Freshman year, moving to a new state made
me a bit monastic. While my new friends, who were in state, were going home,
constantly hanging out with friends from high school I would spend my weekends
studying, try new interesting activities, listen to music, etc.

Being so far from family just made me more self-reliant and resourceful.
Example, my roommate would take a car load of laundry home every month because
he didn't know how to wash his clothes and could not be bothered to figure it
out.

While being self reliant prepared me for life it did not help with the
studies. It took me a few years and a few failed courses before I really
learned how to study. Not at the grade school level but at the university
level. But that was not because of the distance to the school. Being first in
my family I had no one to lean on. Now my siblings are doing much better
because I was the first, took all the arrows to the chest and mentored them
over the stumbling blocks I encountered when transitioning to university.

------
rl3
The majority of people can ultimately attribute meeting nearly all of their
friends to either work or school. Having friends also makes meeting new
friends both easier and far more likely.

People who move around often are hit pretty hard by that dynamic. I'd say
people with little to no educational background who then work remote or
otherwise solitary jobs also have it rough in that regard.

~~~
personlurking
Ouch. I've worked remotely for years, have a history of moving, and haven't
been in school for over a decade. I can easily vouch for your statements, not
to mention two other factors - being in a Southern European country where
"there's no future" (and thus it's the locals that move) and being in my 30s
when most social circles are already established.

It gets more complicated depending on the type of country one lives in. It's
been said that Portugal, where I'm living, doesn't have so much of a social
culture while Spain very much does. This weekend I went to a Spanish border
town and saw infinitely more people, of all ages, out and about. Crossing an
artibrary EU border (just a sign) and suddenly everything changes. The problem
lies in what this means for the individual. As it has been explained to me,
social cultures are like peaches - easy to breach, hard to truly enter - while
less-social cultures are like coconuts - hard to breach, but easier to truly
enter.

~~~
eric-hu
I'm in my thirties and felt as you did until I found the right social hobby
(swing dancing). Now, my biggest social concern is balancing:

1\. Being kind and open to new people I meet. 2\. Dedicating enough time to
the people I know. 3\. Dedicating enough time to myself.

I write this as an American living in Thailand for the last five months. I'm
unfamiliar with Thai and many other Asian languages, yet in those months I've
made friends with people from a half dozen countries in Asia and a couple in
Europe. I would happily meet up with many for a meal. For some, I would even
consider hosting them or asking to crash on their couches.

This is less of an advertisement for swing dancing or dancing in general, and
more an advertisement for exploring different subcultures. I explored many
before finding this particular one.

~~~
contingencies
Heh, I think my wife and I accidentally stumbled on your swing dancing group.
Is it the one that meets in that second floor bar with windows facing west
just south of Sukhumvit from the British embassy? Looked like fun but people
taking it oh so serious! Lots of expats. We were simply relaxing and amused at
the difference with China, but I've since seen a similar event in Chengdu and
we've since met an Aussie tango teacher who has just started up here in
Kunming. From what I understand, swing is super popular with US west-coasters.
Seems a bit of a thing in this area right now. Of course it's probably a faded
fad by now in the more US-connected Korea/Hong Kong/Taiwan zone...

Guess I am the exception that proves the rule. 33 here, moved at least 10
times in the last 15 years, including 3 major international jumps, but still
have a big circle of friends across the region in multiple cities. We are
definitely more aware of parents now that we have a child but overall most
friends are still without. Certainly couples are more approachable now than
singles, though.

~~~
personlurking
> 33 here, moved at least 10 times in the last 15 years, including 3 major
> international jumps

35 here, moved at least 20 times in the last 15 years, including 3 major
international jumps

FTFM (fixed that for me). It's fun but not always easy, as a single person,
that is.

------
fennecfoxen
> American society was mobile in his day and has only gotten more mobile
> since.

This is the conventional wisdom. Is it true? I've seen assertions challenging
it in the past, suggesting Americans were _less_ likely to make big moves
today than in the past, and instead remain in the same city (this was in
connection with some divorce/custody cases).

Blurbs challenging the assertion:

[http://www.newsmax.com/US/americans-moving-less-
than/2014/05...](http://www.newsmax.com/US/americans-moving-less-
than/2014/05/28/id/573682/)

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/post/why-
are-a...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/post/why-are-
americans-moving-less-perhaps-they-dont-need-
to/2012/05/18/gIQAi0L3YU_blog.html)

[http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=151554.0;wa...](http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=151554.0;wap2)

and one on how Americans are still mobile compared to the rest of the world:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/15/the-u...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/15/the-
united-states-is-still-one-of-the-most-mobile-countries-in-the-world/)

------
jzwinck
A related effect happens after you move. In your first months in a new place
you can easily seem interesting and get invited to parties and whatnot because
you're new in town. But you're like an animal in a zoo: look at him, so
unusual, oh let's move on to the next one.

The people you meet will usually be longtime residents of your new home. They
have evidence that your friendship will not last, because after all you just
told them all about the place you left behind. You'll probably leave this
place behind someday, so becoming deeply involved with you is likely a big
waste of time.

Don't worry, there's an expat meet-up every Wednesday! We have no idea who
will be there, but maybe you can meet some new people!

------
venomsnake
I guess different cultures have different ideas of friendship.

For me a friend is someone you call at 3AM with "I need you", and he don't
even asks the question - "who is this guy", while you bury the body. And some
for whom you will do the same.

You may have a couple of those in your life if you are extremely lucky and you
don't lose them even if they are half the world away and you talk once per
year.

But I guess the majority of friendships the articles talk about are
acquaintances. A true friendship is forged in fire, hardened, tempered and not
brittle at all.

------
baron816
Reading these comments makes me feel really good about what I'm trying to do
with my startup, Krewe ([https://www.gokrewe.com](https://www.gokrewe.com)).
It helps people make lasting, meaningful friendships that they can actually
see and do stuff with everyday. It places people into a small social group
where everyone lives within a half mile radius, and then encourages them to
stick together and meet up often. There really is no reason why we all
shouldn't have a close group of friends in our neighborhood, no matter how old
we are, we just need an organization to help make those introductions and
connections.

~~~
Grishnakh
How well does it facilitate discrimination? For instance, in the small town
I'm stuck in at the moment, most people are probably religious, and I
definitely don't want to become friends with any of them. So a service that
lets you find people living near you to be friends with would need to allow me
to discriminate against people like that easily, or I'm not going to bother
using it.

~~~
baron816
I think that would be a little too controversial for me to try to start out
with.

~~~
Grishnakh
Why would that be "controversial"?

It sounds like (without looking at your site: it's blocked for me) you're
basically just setting up something like a dating site, but with a focus on
meeting friends nearby rather than dating partners.

I've never seen a dating site (except Tinder) which didn't have basic
properties plainly visible for every person in their profile: sex, age,
marital/relationship status, religion, ethnicity, kids, and usually a bunch
more like pets, income, job, etc. People discriminate when looking for dating
partners all the time, and for good reason. If you're a 20-year-old hetero
atheist female, you're probably not going to want to date a 70-year-old hetero
evangelical female. It's not that different when looking for friends; most
people form friendships starting from some shared trait or experience, and
tend to avoid people they aren't likely to get along with. Religion is a
pretty big factor here: a devout Muslim is not likely to get along with a
devout Jew or Christian, and similarly an liberal atheist or agnostic is not
likely to get along with a Bible-thumping conservative Christian.

So why wouldn't you want to help people find people they can get along with?
If all you're doing is trying to push together people because they just happen
to leave within a half-mile of each other, that's doomed to failure IMO.

~~~
dragonwriter
There are existing fairly-good mechanisms for people looking to network whose
primary criteria is shared religion (shared absence of religion has somewhat
weaker tools in many locations, and I suppose a tool focusing _specifically_
on that audience might be valuable.)

So, while religious filtering might be of some importance to some users of a
new friend-finder tool, there are, I think, fairly good reasons to think that
the people for whom it is most important are _exactly_ the people that don't
need a new tool at all -- people who network through their religious
communities.

------
TheOneTrueKyle
I've experienced an almost opposite situation a few years ago. Rather than
moving away and losing friends, life brought me to a location in which I
couldn't care less to live in. Because of this, I would make a great effort to
not make friends, not socialize, and not have anything to do with the
community. I lived with the assumption that it was a temporary situation and
would be over soon. It wasn't as temporary as I had hoped...

~~~
Grishnakh
I'm in much the same situation now. Don't listen to that other guy: if you're
living in a place where you don't intend to stay, and the locals really aren't
people you want to spend your time with, then don't. All the people around me
are a bunch of small-town religious people, so I have no desire to get to know
them, or else they're going to start asking me about my "personal relationship
with Jesus" or somesuch. I'm just working on my finances and planning my move
out of here, and for socializing I try to take a day every weekend and drive
to the nearest big city and do something with a Meetup group there. I meet
some very interesting people that way, unlike the people I currently live
around.

~~~
TheOneTrueKyle
Meetups really did help the situation! Luckily this isn't so much of a problem
these days and I have carved out a small niche where I am at. Not exactly
where I want to be, but I've found a way to be happy with where I am!

------
davidw
Generally, we've been really happy with our move from Italy to Bend, Oregon,
but leaving our friends behind has been one of the most difficult aspects of
it. I miss the social interactions with both friends and most people in
general, in Italy. "Hi, how are you?" is a genuine question, and not asked if
you don't expect an answer.

------
Paul_S
When you move you change acquaintances, you don't lose friends unless you
already wanted to lose touch with them. I know it sounds like a no true
Scotsman but with cheap airlines, skype, online gaming etc. it's pretty easy
to keep in touch if you actually want to.

~~~
wallacoloo
What about my rock-climbing partner, and my musician friends (some of the
stuff we do can be done over the 'net, but we can't jam remotely)? I guess
these all fall under the category of "take a plane"? It certainly contradicts
the spur-of-the-moment environment facilitated by cellphones though, whereby
we tend to make plans just a few hours before meeting up.

Keeping in touch is definitely possible, but those types of friendships would
become nearly unrecognizable if we're separated by a plane flight.

~~~
yason
If a friendship revolves around being able to do some similar thing together,
it's probably not a friendship. In a friendship it's about the other person
and it doesn't matter if you can't climb/surf/jam together because it's not
about doing. People I hang out with because of a hobby are pals, peers, even
acquaintances. A friend is a couple of steps above that: a friend I would see
outside the usual circumstances. I go have lunch with my colleagues but it's
only one or two I actually meet outside of work, and those are potential
friend material. Test of true friendship is when you don't have any other
other excuse to meet except yourselves, and you still meet.

~~~
wallacoloo
This seems highly subjective to me, and to be honest, I can't help but be
mildly offended - you just discredited the vast majority of my friendships,
and yet I don't even understand what you're trying to get at.

I don't connect with people via words. I've always felt people are primarily
defined by their actions, so it is very much about the "doing" for me, and
it's through doing things together that I make connections with others.
Obviously, my friend with whom I rock climb isn't just my rock-climbing
partner - we do other things as well, many of which are unplanned and are new
experiences. But it's the possibility of playing out our spur-of-the-moment
ideas, as well as the other regular hobbies, that make our friendship even
remotely interesting. Without being able to do those things together (which is
way, way more difficult when you have to take a plane ride to visit), neither
of us would be able to glean any meaning from the other's existence.

I don't know - was I really far off in how I interpreted your comment? What
_is_ a friendship, to you?

~~~
blablablame
Not GP but I think he means friends are those folks that are there for
everything, from the birth of your kid to picking you up drunk at 5 am from
the pub kind of thing. If the interaction you have with someone is 95% based
around a single activity, they are more in the real of acquaintance than
friend.

This is very subjective and each person will define a 'friend' differently. I
personally, if I don't count my wife, I can count the number of friends with
just my fingers, but for me, the word friend means someone that are there for
you for whatever, that even after not seeing each other for a few years, there
is no awkwardness and you can pick it up from you left. For others, someone
you see regularly, have a few beers are considered friends.

~~~
cableshaft
Those that I consider my closest friends right now, we mostly only see each
other once a week and play board games with each other.

I'd say 90-95% of what we do is play board games together, but I know what's
going on in their lives and they do mine, and I've attended their special
events like birthdays and housewarmings and weddings, and helped them out when
they needed it and supported them in their endeavors.

If that's not being a friend because we mostly just do a 'single activity',
then I very much disagree with your definition.

I do agree about not having seen each other for years and there's no
awkwardness when you get back together being a mark of friendship though. I
have that with my old high school friends, and I'm sure it'd be the same with
my main friends today.

~~~
blablablame
You have been to their birthdays, housewarmings and weddings and helped them
out when they needed.

This is very different from 'these are people I only play boardgames with
them'. I have tennis 'friends'. These are people I only see in relation to
tennis (either playing, practise or even go to watch a match with) but
wouldn't get invited to their wedding or be asked to help them move for
example. Sure, when we are at the club we chat a lot and are very friendly,
but when I'm looking for someone to take care of my kid or lend me his car
because mine broke, I won't be calling them (doesn't mean they can't turn to
people I would in the future, but pretty sure for that to happen the
friendship would have moved off the courts)

------
epimetheus
I pretty much only had a handful of friends before I moved 2000+ miles away,
but honestly, the one and only one that I still talk to was the only one that
was really my friend. The rest were more close acquaintances, past roommates,
etc.

Some are still on the 'real' friend list, but have lives that kept us from
hanging out, even when there wasn't distance. Business, etc.

After moving my wife and I have picked up some couple 'friends,' but they are
more playdate type (kids near same age), and party type acquaintances. I don't
meet up with either of them individually (and they are socialites, so are
always doing stuff with groups of people, I don't know that they have any
friends that they just hang out together with, other than in a group).

My closest friend still hangs out with us once a year. We chat and email
weekly if not daily, and we both fly to each other's cities to visit, or we
meet somewhere and hang out, vacation-like.

------
quanticle

        Lewin thought that this idea of friends as fast fashion—easily acquired, 
        emotionlessly discarded when worn out—might be spurred by the United 
        States’s high level of residential mobility. American society was mobile in 
        his day and has only gotten more mobile since.
    

How does the author square this with all of the recent studies that show that
American residential mobility is at an all-time low? [1] And yet it doesn't
seem that the average American is making more deep friendships, even though he
or she is staying for longer in a single metropolitan area.

[1]:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/11/why-a...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/11/why-
arent-americans-moving-anymore-heres-a-new-theory/)

~~~
aksquestions
Over the same time period, the US population has been increasing in diversity.
Among other negative aspects, increased diversity increases social alienation.
It reduces social cohesion and trust not just between groups but within them.

[.]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam#Diversity_and...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam#Diversity_and_trust_within_communities)

[#]
[http://politicalscience.ku.dk/staff/Academic_staff/?pure=fil...](http://politicalscience.ku.dk/staff/Academic_staff/?pure=files%2F130251172%2FDinesen_S_nderskov_Ethnic_Diversity_and_Social_Trust_Forthcoming_ASR.pdf)

------
a2tech
I'm not shocked. Its callous but I'm open with my friends that when they move,
we're not really going to be friends any more. I don't see you any more, we
don't chat all the time because you're in a different time zone, you have a
lot of things to do. Why pretend that we're still friends? Its just a lot of
hassle for everyone.

~~~
p4wnc6
I think this has more to do with the way _you_ consume friendship than with
the idea in general.

For me personally, even if I live in the same town as my best friend, I will
barely see him. Most communication that deeply matters to me happens through
text messages or email, not through in-person interaction.

I also tend to have a very small number of people that I consider friends, but
I am fiercely loyal and protective of that small set of people. I don't want a
large network of friends because my experience in life is that very few people
are able or willing to help me and very few people share the perspectives that
I have.

For the few that make good friends, geographical distance is one of the last
things I would expect to affect the friendship.

------
bhewes
I have spent my life moving from place to place. One thing I have learned is
how to keep friends, because of the internet and cheap plane flights. If my
friend lives in the U.S. it is basically the same place to me. This maybe an
extension of the fields I work in as they are global and have been for awhile.

------
humbleMouse
Being born and raised in Minneapolis and still living here, I think about this
dynamic every single day. I hate the cold weather here but I have a HUGE
circle of friends and know tons of people in the city. I really want to move
somewhere warmer but I dread loosing all my friends and family.

~~~
alvern
Also being born and raised in Minneapolis; leave and come back. Most of your
friends will still be here. A huge amount of my college/20-something
friendships live in Colorado. There is so much of the world to experience
before a mortgage, kids, and a job tie you down to one place.

------
hoodoof
The older I get the more I value the small number of real friends I have.

------
jheriko
i'm not sure this is exactly a revelation. did i miss something?

~~~
xuhu
It _was_ pretty bleak except maybe the last paragraph. "Perhaps this
occasional tendency to keep friendships from getting too deep, and being
willing to let them go [...] comes from the knowledge of how hard it is to
leave people."

------
chei0aiV
I blame the Internet.

