
Below Deck: Filipinos make up nearly a third of all cruise ship workers - edward
https://story.californiasunday.com/below-deck
======
traveling
Newsflash: Life sucks anywhere when you're poor and uneducated.

I worked as an independent Google contractor before for less than $11 an hour
with very stringent rules, ever increasing performance requirements, no
holidays, no sick pay, no nothing.

If you're poor and uneducated you're disposable dirt anywhere these days, even
though people would like you to think otherwise and it's obviously even worse
in 3rd world countries, where people looking for relatively unskilled jobs far
outnumber available positions.

~~~
kafkaesq
_Newsflash: Life sucks anywhere when you 're poor and uneducated._

 _And_ abundant evidence indicates that (most) corporations will do everything
within their power to take advantage of this fact, unless very strongly
regulated.

~~~
TheSageMage
Not trying to start a capitalism war, but would an Earned Income Tax Credit be
a more viable alternative to higher minimum wages? I've not done the leg work,
but the IRS has a lot more info to help determine who's making how much that
could help make the EITC even out unequal pay.

~~~
kafkaesq
I'm not really on top of the various policy debates, actually. What's
important is not to be distracted by this idea that "life sucks, and you can't
really do anything about it -- so just keep your head down and look after
yourself." Being as this is not only exactly how the powers-that-be want you
to see things; it's entirely integral to their strategy of keeping things the
way they are.

In fact, they even have a name for this strategy:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-
world_hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis)

~~~
FabHK
Very good point - it's a bit disheartening to see many people eschew political
action in favour of self improvement.

Self improvement is fine and necessary and honorable and all, but ultimately
living together in society is necessarily political.

Note also that a lot of what is taught in undergrad/MBA economics 101
distracts from that, and (even while aspiring to be value neutral) implicitly
promotes a trust in markets and corporations that is naive and misguided.

James Kwak's book "Economism" is a nice antidote to that:

[https://www.amazon.com/Economism-Bad-Economics-Rise-
Inequali...](https://www.amazon.com/Economism-Bad-Economics-Rise-
Inequality/dp/1101871199/)

------
coldcode
Carnival is basically the bottom of the barrel in the cruise ship industry,
cheap crap for the masses and they maintain this cheapness by poor working
conditions, slapdash ship design (count how many ships caught fire in the past
few years, almost all Carnival) and low quality amenities. Like no frills
airlines, there is of course a market for cheap, but you get what you pay for.
Even on much better lines it isn't an easy job, but my friends in the cruise
industry note that it is a decent living for people from poorer countries, and
can be fun if you land on the right ship/line. You do work 7 days a week but
the commute is short, and on decent ships your life is not really that bad.

But as the article pointed out, that choice of where you work can make a huge
difference if anything goes wrong like an injury, and that's where none of the
lines are really all that great. Even there while there are always new people
they can hire, word does get out who to work for, and if your rep takes a fall
because you treat people like crap, you won't be able to hire good people, and
the guests will see the quality drop to point where revenue gets hit. Cruise
ships are enormously expensive to run, and competition is strong. But my
family has been on enough cruises to know who we would rather be on, and how
decently they treat the employees is a good indication of whether you should
spend a little more and get a better experience.

~~~
_asummers
What are the cruise lines you have liked most?

~~~
Isamu
Disney cruise was awesome, on one of the big new ships. I would recommend.

~~~
paulddraper
Ironically, Disney Cruises is owned by...Carnival.

~~~
ianhawes
This is FAKE NEWS! Disney Cruise Line is not owned by Carnival, but rather by
Walt Disney Parks & Resorts.

~~~
paulddraper
Geez...I wasn't aware I was even writing a news article at all.

And to be fair, Carnival _did_ buy Disney cruises, though things have changed
in the years since.

------
readhn
This is why I am never ever going on a cruise ship (or any resort in Mexico,
Dominican etc). Knowing that the guy serving you is basically a slave working
for pennies while you are supposed to enjoy your vacation and relax- I
couldn't, no thank you.

What surprises me to this day is how little it costs to buy American congress.
1,000,000$ lobbying costs? That's less than a lot of houses in SF or NYC.

Shouldn't it cost more to buy American congress decisions? Like 50 - 100
million USD price range? 1 billion perhaps? Why American politicians are so
cheap? Raising lobbying prices would seem a logical conclusion Here :)

~~~
jasode
_> This is why I am never ever going on a cruise ship [...] Knowing that the
guy serving you is basically a slave_

I'm not doubting your sincerity and principles but I'd like to go beyond this
particular injustice of cruise workers and understand how consumers reconcile
_all_ the "slave" inputs for the _other_ products they buy.

In the USA, many fruits and veggies are collected by cheap labor from
Mexico.[1] In UK, the analogous group is Africans. Those strawberries in the
supermarket are not collected by white middle-class teenagers working the
field as a fun summer job. It's back-breaking work with terrible pay. Similar
situation for many foods like coffee beans, beef/poultry/pork processing.

Or the shoes for your kid to run or play soccer in. Made by sweatshops (many
staffed with children) in Asia.

Or how about smartphones?[2] This includes kids mining for minerals so we can
have iPhones.[3]

Yes, some of these happen because many consumers are oblivious to how products
are made. (You mean the strawberries don't come from a magical strawberry
fairy?!?)

Or maybe why we tolerate many of these scenarios is _" The Copenhagen
Interpretation of Ethics"_[4] which has been discussed by HN before. If I
don't physically have to touch or lay my eyes on that child labor in Africa,
my iPhone is fine.

What would a lifestyle that avoided all use of "tainted" products used look
like? (No iPhone, no cheap produce from the supermarket, no affordable shoes
or clothing. etc.)

I've not seen a really good essay discussing all the inconsistencies of ethics
applied above and advising us how to live guilt free _without_ retreating to a
remote monastery and minimizing oneself to an ascetic life like a monk.
Refusing cruise ships is _easy_ \-- a lot of HN readers don't like them in the
first place. Giving up smartphones is _hard_. Relevant to this moment, the
ability to type up comments on HN means I'm taking advantage of the global
supply of "slave labor" around the world. There's no way I could have the
luxury to do that if I had to harvest my own strawberries or pay a white
person $20/hour to do it for me.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8_JWuWSSLQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8_JWuWSSLQ)

[2] [http://www.androidcentral.com/child-labor-allegations-
surfac...](http://www.androidcentral.com/child-labor-allegations-surface-
factory-contracted-samsung-china)

[3] [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3280872/iPhone-
miner...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3280872/iPhone-mineral-
miners-Africa-use-bare-hands-coltan.html)

[4] [https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-
eth...](https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics/)

~~~
kristianc
It's always possible to make arguments like these, and their appeal is that
they're impossible to refute. It's not evident that the conditions of the
Filipino cruise ship worker are worse than the Foxconn worker, the strawberry
picker or the factory worker in Vietnam.

However one should never turn moral consistency into a prerequisite for action
- otherwise we get paralysis and inaction and nothing gets done at all. CP is
perfectly able to reconcile voting with his or her feet on this and accepting
that in other areas he or she is tacitly accepting slavery.

~~~
throwaway2048
Most famously, this sort of non arguement was a classic defence of the soviet
system when compared with the american one.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_negros](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_negros)

Being a hypocrite on these issues is basicly unavoidable in the modern world,
but the critical point here is that does not make you _wrong_ , nor is it a
refutation that such things are bad and should be changed.

Its just an easy trite dismissal to avoid examining the situation.

~~~
jasode
_> Its just an easy trite dismissal_

I wasn't dismissing the Filipino worker. I was trying to expand the discussion
to other areas _similar to_ the cruise worker. People may be unaware how many
other workers in other industries the "slavery" criteria applies to. Or they
are aware and don't care. I haven't taken a survey and don't know.

~~~
xapata
> aware and don't care

I've heard a few people say, "America First," recently. I think everyone is at
least mildly aware of suffering internationally. Refugees are big news.

------
stoolpigeon
I visited Olongapo a number of times in the late 80s with the US Navy. As the
article mentions we had a very large number of Filipinos in the USN and there
were whole departments completed dominated by Filipino leadership (at the
enlisted level).

It's interesting that as our bases shut down and we left that our cruise lines
started picking people up.

I think this article should be a cautionary tail to those who would think that
large businesses can be trusted to treat people properly on their own.

------
ConroyBumpus
Not unique to the cruise industry. Filipino crews make up a lot of the
maritime industry's labor force. Container ships, tankers, offshore drilling,
you name it. Some of the best food I've eaten offshore was on vessels with
Filipino catering crews.

The cruise ship guys, comparatively, have it good. There are innumerable
stories of entire freighter crews being marooned in third world ports by
shipowners who didn't want to pay them.

The global shipping industry is, unfortunately, a race to the bottom. Every
time that John McCain proposes the repeal of the Jones Act, I cringe with the
thought of what it would do to what's left of the American merchant marine.

~~~
edblarney
They are the primary supply for domestic workers in Canada, specifically for
things like nannies.

------
dizzyfingers
I worked for Carnival as a pianist for a couple years after college to save
money and it was an excellent physical reminder of how many people are in this
world.

I saw those ships turn over ~3,000 people every 5 - 7 days and according to
Carnival that would be the first and only cruise for 75% of those guests!
That's across a fleet of 25 ships! Needless to say it cured my number numbness
for conceptualizing the size of the 'masses.'

------
koolba
> The three logged their hours on the ship’s time-sheet software, called “Fun
> Time” (Carnival Cruise Line’s motto is the “Fun Ship”). But when the number
> exceeded ten hours, it appeared red on the screen. No matter how many extra
> hours they tapped in, their pay slips rarely showed that they worked more
> than ten or 11 hours a day. Regie didn’t understand why he wasn’t paid for
> the extra work, and when he asked management, no one provided an answer.
> “What’s your proof?” Regie says his supervisor shot back. Many tip-earning
> Carnival Cruise Line workers told me that when they raised the issue, their
> managers would punish them by assigning them fewer guests, which meant fewer
> tips.

I wonder why they do this. The $$$ savings for the lesser hours are peanuts
given the low wages. Only reason I can think of is to break the will of the
workers. If they feel powerless to complain about the hours they've worked,
they're less likely to complain about the rest of their conditions.

> But arbitration in the Philippines is nothing like the American judicial
> system. In the United States, seamen can file for damages on the basis of
> dangerous working conditions or shoddy medical care, for example. They can
> receive payments that cover any future loss of wages and ongoing medical
> expenses, which can span a lifetime. In the Philippines, on the other hand,
> seamen are offered payouts based on a predetermined compensation chart, in
> which each body part has a price tag. _If there’s a spinal injury and the
> company-sponsored doctor says a seafarer’s back has lost a third of its
> mobility, it’s valued at $7,465. If a crew member loses his penis, he’s paid
> $20,900. If a worker dies: $50,000_. The maximum payout, for permanent
> disability, is capped at $60,000. Unionized workers can receive more, but
> Carnival Cruise Line crew members are nonunion.

I'm not sure how one " _loses his penis_ " but I'm damn sure I'd demand more
than $20,900 in compensation from the party responsible.

> Recently, the cruise industry has pushed to pass a law that would prevent
> all foreign cruise workers in U.S. waters — not just Filipinos — from any
> protection under U.S. law.

Sounds like they want it both ways. If you're docking at US ports and picking
up US customers, you should be expected to follow _some_ level of US law. It's
hard to say what protections should apply though as it's possible they could
conflict with foreign laws as well. My internal sense of justice says it
should be something though.

~~~
kittenmittens
> I wonder why they do this. The $$$ savings for the lesser hours are peanuts
> given the low wages. Only reason I can think of is to break the will of the
> workers.

It's more about regulations I believe, if management can "prove" that you did
not work more than the allowed hours, they cannot be fined for it.

~~~
koolba
Why can't you work more than 10 hours per day? Is that a labor law in ship's
flag country?

~~~
trome
Probably the 91 hour per week limit the article mentioned, if they were
clocking 12 to 14hr shifts they would meet or break that maximum hourly limit
often. Those are insane work hours!

~~~
tawm
The 91 hour limit comes from the MLC:

"Rest hours: rest hours should be implemented in national legislation. The
maximum hours of work in that legislation should not exceed 14 hours in any
24-hour period and 72 hours in any seven-day period, or: at least ten hours of
rest in any 24-hour period and 77 hours (rest) in any seven-day period.
Furthermore, the daily hours of rest may not be divided into more than two
periods and, at least six hours of rest should be given consecutively in one
of those two periods."

7*24-77 = 91

------
mabbo
All of the replies from Carnival give the same impression: we have rules
against that sort of thing, and would punish anyone caught breaking those
rules. We also do not go looking for anyone breaking such rules, because we
make more money this way.

Having rules is meaningless if you aren't trying to enforce them.

------
socrates1998
Filipinos are often amazing workers. They seem to be generally happy (which I
generally believe they are). Are fairly diligent. They speak English and
communicate well. And work hard.

The biggest issue I have seen is that they can be naive. I have had to talk a
few of my Filipino friends out of some scams.

------
dvtv75
Coincidentally, a Filipino man was killed in an explosion on a cruise ship
just a few days ago:

[http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objecti...](http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11798211)

------
kickaxeninja
But carnival spends hundreds of millions developing their medallion app to
deliver the highest level of guest experience. I'm all for profit but they
have the money to treat their workers humanely.

Carnival, and all their princess subsidiaries should be boycotted

------
dirtylowprofile
As a Filipino, this makes me sad.

------
mdip
This read made me respect the cruise workers who have made my vacations so
good over the years.

About 13 years ago I took my first cruise, and from that point forward, about
yearly or more, I cruise (though it's been two years since my last). I prefer
Royal Caribbean (and Carnival is low on my list, though I've cruised with them
many times). I always joke that it's the perfect vacation for geek
decompression: it's on a ship where getting in contact with me is very
difficult and expensive. Internet is expensive and only somewhat works on
board. You don't have to think much -- very little upfront planning is
required -- and there's a lot of time spent being left alone with your
thoughts. It's _very_ uncomfortable, at first, having to wait in lines without
being able to pull out your smart phone and be distracted by
Facebook/Reddit/Twitter, but after a day of it, you're forced into a form of
relaxation that's missing from life these days.

The biggest reason I _love_ cruising is _the staff_. Reading an article like
this, you'd expect the staff to appear unhappy or otherwise be less than
stellar. And while this is anecdata, at best, in the 15 or so cruises I've
taken, I've not only never encountered a member of staff that had a bad
attitude, I've never encountered a member of staff that was _willing to ride
an elevator with me without smiling and asking how my vacation was going_.
It's been impossible for me to find a member of staff who appears, at all, to
not be having _fun_ , even though we know full well that they're very
underpaid and treated poorly by the western standards that almost all of their
guests come from. I've stayed in high-class hotels in specialty suites for
work and haven't experienced the quality of staff that I've received staying
in an interior, windowless state-room in a small ship. This very personal
interaction, with unbelievable attention to detail[0], is why I keep cruising.

These men and women not only work hard under poor conditions, they do so with
a work ethic that you'd be hard pressed to find in the best paying jobs in the
US. Part of this was pointed out in the article -- in a lot of cases, this is
the _best_ job they can get to support their family back home. My wife and I
are very extroverted and a ship filled with people who, at worst, are
pretending to want to get to know you and make your vacation better is a
guarantee that we're going to make friends (genuine or not, though I've never
gotten the sense that it was anything but genuine). We got to know a few
members of maintenance staff (one of them broke several rules[1] to show us
parts of the ship that were off limits, including crew quarters, pre-9/11).
These folks know the best places to visit on the islands and where to go to
get goods and services inexpensively[2]. One point that was made is if you
want to reward a member of staff, cash is king and conceal cash tips from
view. They do everything they can to make extra money on the side (and I
chuckled because our guy was "a Christian who rented DVDs" and DVD players
though I doubt it was the same guy from the article). On one of the cruises we
took, we were told that the mandatory tips that are included in your bill (it
wasn't always this way) are pooled and your room steward/waiter aren't going
to be rewarded directly from any extra generosity you offer[3].

[0] My daughter once worried that the towel animals were not comfortable
sleeping in the room because they were placed on the covers -- this was said
to us within earshot of the room steward. The next time we arrived in our
stateroom, the towel animal was snuggled into the bed with its head on the
pillow. Seriously.

[1] We were told that many of these rules can be broken without consequences
if they're being broken at the wishes of the guest.

[2] We ended up on a tour on St. Thomas, paid for with a ten dollar bill for
the two of us, that was filled with Royal Caribbean customers who had dropped
$55/ticket for the same tour. We were told, wait until the afternoon and show
up when they're loading customers on. Someone will be standing outside selling
off the rest of the seats. Our "bus" was half-empty, to boot. In another case,
we were pointed in the direction of a restaurant off the beaten path, filled
with locals, where we were fed two large meals with appetizers and bottomless
drinks for about $7.50 and it was the best food and drink we'd had off-ship
that week.

[3] We learned some more disturbing things, as well. Casual sex is rampant. We
were told of several stories that made the lower decks sound like they have a
frat house/orgy atmosphere (this is something I've heard from folks who work
at Disney and other resorts).

~~~
cruiseguy
You do realize that the employees have to do this. They spend hours and hours
in training where they're told to always smile and greet guest. It's like
strippers. The companies are taking money out of the pockets of crew by
considering the gratuity included. Giving them cash is the only way to make
sure they actually are rewarded for their hard work, but make sure to not do
it in front of management. Actuaries are doing their best to pinch pennies,
and many of those are coming from the pockets of these people.

~~~
mdip
Of course -- If you've read anything about the industry (this article, in
particular), it's very clear this is part of training and "a requirement" of
the job. It's also a very _strict_ requirement -- they fire people for failing
to do the tiniest of things and I've heard stories (I'm not sure if they're
true) that entire categories of staff were fired due to a small number of
reviews that didn't land in the highest review category -- anything other than
perfect is failure. Fill those things out, mark 'em high if you care about the
staff, and write in the names of people who made things pleasant for you.

The point I was making there is that it's _really impressive_ and a testament
to the work ethic of the staff that it's done _so well_. You'd expect someone
working under the condition of fear to do this "just well enough to not get
fired" but I've never detected even the slightest hint that the attitudes of
staff are not genuine (I'm not saying they _are_ genuine, just that they're
_quite good at hiding that fact_ ). The work ethic is, in a word, impressive.

As for tipping - I suggest catching them in the hallway on their way between
shifts/responsibilities. Palm a sizeable bill and give it to them in a hand-
shake. Do this on the day before debarkation, otherwise you risk obligating
that person to feel like they need to "work it off" for you[0].

As for me, I cruise because it's inexpensive, but I plan for a big budget
vacation[1]. I'm frugal by nature (4 kids, one income), so we end up way under
budget without trying. After we had a long chat with a member of maintenance
staff, we were touched by his kindness and circumstances, so we decided from
that cruise forward to come home with the budget surplus spent this way and
found it had a great effect of adding to the joy of our vacation.

[0] A gratuity is for something that was done, not something that is expected,
later. The latter is a bribe. :o)

[1] Vacations are to fill a "need" to relax and it's hard to relax if you're
spending your time worrying about how much you're spending, so we don't
vacation until we have enough money to exceed what we expect to spend.

------
Aardwolf
I love the high quality high res photos in this article! They take a while to
load, but so much better than low res photos full of artefacts you usually get
in articles, here you can actually see something

------
dyu-
That's terrible man. $190/month as a dish washer $45/month as a waiter (with
tips that could reach to 2k if you always work overtime and not complain about
the lack of extra pay)

~~~
77pt77
> with tips that could reach to 2k if you always work overtime and not
> complain about the lack of extra pay

How does a dishwasher make tips?

~~~
dyu-
Only waiters get their share from the tips. I've spoken to waiters (mostly
filipino) during a cruise and the $50 monthly excluding tips is real.

I made a typo in my above comment. As a dishwasher, you get $450/month - fixed
and without tips.

~~~
77pt77
That's more plausible.

I assume also room and board are "free".

~~~
dyu-
Yeah they're included.

------
wyclif
If you're a Filipino man and reading this, please don't be tempted to take one
of these jobs. Your health is something that you can't replace.

~~~
jacquesm
What do you suggest that Filipino man does instead?

~~~
liotier
Found a startup, pitch on HN, get rich - c'mon man, get with the program !

~~~
alfiedotwtf
For a different perspective, conditions may have changed now...

I have about 6 cousins from the Philippines that are all around the world on
various cruise ships, tankers, and cargo ships. Each one sending money back
home, each one happy, they all love their jobs, and go back for reassignment.

~~~
SeanBoocock
So did the man profiled in this story and several of his friends until health
problems and workplace conditions wore down their enthusiasm. Even if the vast
majority of cruise ship employees are satisfied with their employment, one
should worry about the effort to weaken laws and regulations meant to protect
these vulnerable workers.

------
laser
Hate to nitpick, but how is "Regie eventually settled for $25,000 — after
attorney fees were taken out, roughly equivalent to a year’s middle-class
income in the Philippines." factual if the GDP per capita of the Philippines
is ~$2600?

~~~
throwaway5000
maybe because the equivalent of "middle class" is so rare there?

~~~
DaiPlusPlus
Judging from my own time living in Manila I can vouch for this. The middle
class has been slowly emerging since the 1980s - thanks to increased education
and foreign investment - but it's still a tiny proportion of the country. I
used to live in Makati and when touring the rest of the country it felt like
the entire non-poor, but non-superrich were confined to just that part of
Manila.

(Shout out to ISM Bearcats!)

~~~
wyclif
The Filipino middle class is developing in the same way that the Philippines
is a developing country...very slowly and incrementally. So, for instance,
you're starting to see things like Ayala malls, iStores, and more upscale
cars. But those aren't hugely popular or mass-scale because most people in the
Philippines cannot afford to buy them or shop there.

------
lubos
The sad thing is that while he was able to earn $1,500 per month, he
apparently didn't invest into anything. No financial planning as if he can do
this job forever. Sure he must have known stories what's going on and could
prepare for this possibility. I don't understand why he didn't.

~~~
exidy
And where did you learn to do financial planning? Were you perhaps raised in
an environment where you could see loans, investments, assets, mortgages,
credit and debit in action? Or perhaps you even had it as a formal subject in
school?

Now imagine you were raised in a bamboo shack living hand-to-mouth in a cash
economy.

~~~
song
He also did invest it partly in his kid's education which in many countries of
Asia is the typical way people plan for retirement.

