
Teen shot herself with gunshot through mouth while hands cuffed behind back - wallace_f
https://abcnews4.com/news/nation-world/police-woman-killed-herself-with-gunshot-through-her-mouth-while-hands-cuffed-behind-back
======
mcv
According to this and many, many similar kinds of stories, it appears that
American police officers sometimes commit murder and seem to get away with it.
Is there really nothing that can be done about that?

If they're not prosecuted because of an unhealthy relationship between police
and prosecutors, why is that relationship not changed? Why are prosecutors and
police departments not held accountable for this?

Why aren't state and federal governments calling for better laws to protect
the people from crooked cops?

Why are these officers not fired, at least?

And why are US police officers not better trained and selected?

Surely there must we ways to address this. Why is that not happening? Is
American society really fine with their police murdering people?

~~~
pjc50
> Is American society really fine with their police murdering people?

I think the only possible answer is "yes"?

It's not even a US-specific phenomenon; lots of people around the world want
"something to be done" about crime, and are happy to assume that if the police
are after someone "that person must have done something wrong" and therefore
"deserved" whatever happened to them.

It's just that most of the first world has managed to build little non-
authoritarian enclaves where the police are subject to the law too, and enough
of the public accept the idea that all life is valuable.

~~~
wallace_f
>if the police are after someone "that person must have done something wrong"
and therefore "deserved" whatever happened to them

This, to me, is one of the primary tenants of what is evil about naziism, or
tyranny, or whatever you call it.

You can see it alive today. Lookup police cam, or "karma justice" kind videos
on YT and see people in the comments cheering on the beutality or deaths of
people whom they know next to nothing about.

A civil and just society would see the human in everybody, and try to afford
everyone natural rights. Not a judge, jury and executioner in the form of a
uniformed enforcer on streets.

~~~
0815test
>>if the police are after someone "that person must have done something wrong"
and therefore "deserved" whatever happened to them

> This, to me, is one of the primary tenants of what is evil about naziism, or
> tyranny, or whatever you call it.

Indeed, this is what Arendt meant by "the banality of evil". It's what people
are cautioning about when they tell us that by far the smallest, most
vulnerable, most heavily-oppressed minority of them all is _the individual_.

~~~
mcv
There have been plenty of (questionable) psychological and sociological
experiments that have shown that most people are perfectly capable of evil in
the right (or wrong, I suppose) circumstances.

That means the only way to prevent evil is to shape the circumstances in such
a way that encourage people to do the right thing, and discourages evil.

So with police, you can't merely trust them that they will always do the right
thing and not mistreat or murder suspects, you have to train them, hold them
accountable, and create a culture where bad behaviour is simply not
acceptable.

My impression of the US police (from reading these kind of stories, as a
foreigner, not having any first-hand experience with it) is that US police
frequently fails on some, and sometimes on all three of these issues.

------
PeterisP
It kind of reminds me of the Russian case a few years ago (e.g.
[https://life.ru/t/%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8...](https://life.ru/t/%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8/881540/naidiennyi_miortvym_v_otdielie_politsii_biezrukii_invalid_otpravil_proshchalnoie_sms_mamie))
where a witness detained for questioning somehow managed to hang himself in an
isolation cell - despite being an amputee with no arms.

There used to be a saying "only in Russia..." but it's apparently not valid
anymore.

~~~
yetihehe
There was a joke sometime ago about serial suicider in Poland after several
politicians committed suicide.

~~~
TeMPOraL
In particular, one of those was a prominent politician from the party
Samoobrona ("self defense"), which led to joking that "he hanged himself in
self-defense".

------
cjslep
The latest Last Week Tonight where they highlight sometimes there is a
coziness of coroners/medical examiners with police really makes this look even
worse.

~~~
onetimemanytime
The good news is that plenty of lawyers and medical examiners will take this
case and likely find the truth. That's the difference with Russia, China and
quite a few other countries.

~~~
tastroder
Not sure how that is the response to a post pointing out one of the many
systemic faults in American policing tbh. There might be a difference in
motives and with gun laws American police might even be in a unique position
but from an outside perspective all this "bad apple" narrative seems pretty
drawn out.

A government not acknowledging failures in training, procedure and
accountability doesn't seem that much better than one that outright fosters
that state in their executive branch.

------
barking
I read somewhere that at some point the prevailing culture in American Police
forces changed from putting public safety first to putting police safety
first.

Not just in America, in the UK the Health and Safety culture has resulted in
drownings where rescue personnel refused to enter ponds to assist victims. And
currently an enquiry into the London Bridge attack has heard of how
paramedics, thinking of their own safety, refused to help patients for up to
90 minutes after the attackers had been killed.

The US police increasingly resemble a paramilitary type operation with swat
teams and armoured vehicles, all predicated on the protection of officers.

It was probably inevitable in a country where even automatic assault weapons
are freely available.

~~~
who-knows95
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48281463](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48281463)

this is a mistruth, 3 men didn't receive care instantly as the area they were
in was deemed "Hot"

"The inquest has heard that the scene of the attack was deemed a "hot zone"
under London Ambulance Service (LAS) protocol, which prevents paramedics from
entering for their own safety."

""For our own safety we couldn't go forward," he told the Old Bailey, which is
hearing the inquests into the deaths of the eight people killed in the attack
at London Bridge and Borough Market."

~~~
barking
Sorry if I reported it incorrectly. The point remains however that the
ambulance services protocols put the safety of their staff over those of
injured members of the public. I think I heard of heated exchanges between
police officers demanding paramedics to attend to people and they refusing to
do so. Is that not correct?

~~~
who-knows95
i cannot comment on that, as a first aid guy, i can refuse treatment to
anyone. i'm not sure if it's the same with paramedics.

but, of course "ambulance services protocols put the safety of their staff
over those of injured members of the public." doing the maths, if those
paramedics were shot while doing work, now you just have even more people
injured and require more medics.

police can be armed, with direct contact to support, medics aren't.

the ethics, and legal standing around paramedics refusing to treat wounded
civi or other are buried deep within code.

~~~
barking
I do have a bit of a problem with this. If I were ever trapped in a building
on fire I would hope it happened in somewhere like New York where the fire
department would put themselves in harm's way to rescue me. In London, and I
could be wrong, I believe that they would wait until it was safe to enter and
by then I'd probably be dead.

~~~
who-knows95
there is a very real difference between a terror attack, and a normal call
out.

the reason why the area was delegated hot was because of reports of gun
fire/ramming.

sadly, your logic isn't correct, we still have firefighters burn to death
while trying to rescue civis.

\--[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/04/grenfell-
tow...](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/04/grenfell-tower-
firefighter-inquiry)

"A firefighter at Grenfell Tower prepared to die when his oxygen almost ran
out during the attempted rescue of a 12-year old girl because the fire lift
failed, the public inquiry has heard."

many people died in this event, not because of firefighters on the ground, but
because of leadership/command/govt.

------
tibbydudeza
We heard the same type of explanations of people dying in police custody here
in South Africa .. people jumping from the police headquarters building while
under interrogation.

It is all this first responder hero worship in the US.

Cops are just public servants no better or worse than the folks at the local
Dept of Motor Vehicles.

------
mlang23
There is a german word for this: "erselbstmordet". I hope there is nobody in
sight who believes this bullshit. Still, makes you wonder about the state of
the "free world" if the press actually publishes such articles without
accusing the police of outright lying. Oh, what a bummer, the bodycam was
accidentally turned off, sure.

------
mindgam3
“Reports say one officer was wearing a body camera at the time of the stop but
it was knocked off during the struggle with Medlin and turned off when it hit
the ground. It was off during the shooting and did not capture the teen's
death. After Medlin was detained, the camera was reattached and turned back on
to record, police said but the Chesapeake Police Department declined to
release the body camera footage.”

If I had a nickel for every time police bodycams just happened to be off or
malfunctioning whenever somebody gets killed under highly dubious
circumstances, I wouldn’t need to raise venture capital. The PD declining to
release footage from after is the icing on the cake. This is just ridiculous.

------
simplulo
Police commit 8% of US homicides. The problem is clearly not the police, or
the Drug War, but guns. Well, maybe the police could use some more sensitivity
training.

------
alphabettsy
This is the craziest I’ve seen all weeks and I’ve seen so many crazy stories
regarding law enforcement already this week.

Officer’s son shoots man in back of head, lies and tampers with evidence and
isn't charged with murder: [https://www.news4jax.com/news/fdle-arrests-baker-
county-man-...](https://www.news4jax.com/news/fdle-arrests-baker-county-man-
in-2018-fatal-shooting)

Corrections officers neglect prisoner who dies, one goes back to work:
[https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2019/05/21/j...](https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2019/05/21/janika-
edmond-suicide-prison-michigan-settlement/3754282002/)

------
camochameleon
> Reports say one officer was wearing a body camera at the time of the stop
> but it was knocked off during the struggle with Medlin and turned off when
> it hit the ground. It was off during the shooting and did not capture the
> teen's death. After Medlin was detained, the camera was reattached and
> turned back on to record, police said but the Chesapeake Police Department
> declined to release the body camera footage.

It is insane how often body cameras are 'knocked' or 'dropped' in these cases.
Is the tech _seriously_ that poor? This is not even the most ridiculous case;
there have been times when _five body cameras_ were all said to have
malfunctioned at once, or even _seven dashboard cameras_. [1] [2, for non-
paywall version]

How these forces are allowed to get away with this is ridiculous.

[1] [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-
watch/wp/2018/06/28/...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-
watch/wp/2018/06/28/the-ongoing-problem-of-conveniently-malfunctioning-police-
cameras/?utm_term=.cdab4f4c7208)

[2] [https://outline.com/sMHgWL](https://outline.com/sMHgWL)

~~~
westpfelia
Oh yea. Its absurd. Police departments probably pay hundreds of dollars on a
'camera' that can so easily 'fall off' and get 'turned off'.

When GoPro is sitting over going "hey guys we had a guy free fall 12,500 feet
with one of our cameras on and it was fine"

Murder is murder and any time something like this happens and the camera was
'turned off' the cops should be charged with murder.

But hey even if the cameras were on would it matter? In Vallejo 6 cops shot a
man 25 times who had fallen asleep in his car at a taco bell drive through.
Dude was asleep, was surrounded, and shot 25 times. Best part? One of the
officers was already being investigated for what you ask? Why possible
excessive force that resulted in a death.

[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/07/vallejo-
poli...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/07/vallejo-police-
shooting-bike-ronell-foster-willie-mccoy)

~~~
wallace_f
Should the footage should be streamed to a set of some independent civil
rights orgs, like the IJ or ACLU.

------
d33
Could any medical/topology expert explain if it's even possible?

~~~
iamwil
I think so. You can lie on your back (or squat) and slide your hands behind
your thighs. Hold the gun upside down in your hands, and pull the trigger with
your thumb.

But it seems unlikely. Even more suspicious when body cams got turned off.

~~~
faissaloo
Agreed, it'd be very difficult to aim squarely at your mouth

------
praptak
I wonder if it's possible to deduct the position of the gun from ballistics
examination.

It's inconvenient to put a gun in someone's mouth the way they'd hold it to
kill themselves.

~~~
hjk05
How do you even hold a gun to your mouth after having contoured handcuffed
hands from you back into the front of your face?

------
bryanrasmussen
wow, generally the suicidal thoughts don't hit immediately at the point of
arrest because you are really amped up on all the adrenaline especially if
you've been fighting the cop.

And generally it's men who shoot themselves, but I guess she was just looking
inside that car for some way, anyway to kill herself quickly and found an
unattended gun. And luckily for her, I guess, she had the energy to actually
pull it off - what with all the contorting that was required .

~~~
arctantwo
Are you honestly saying that you believe someone who was handcuffed with their
hands behind their back was able to shoot themselves through the mouth from
the front? I've got a bridge to sell you if you are.

~~~
fapi1974
I read sarcasm

~~~
arctantwo
One look at the front page of r/td and you'll understand why I would think
he's completely serious.

------
empath75
Even if for the sake of argument this person committed suicide with a gun in
the back of the car, the officer involved should be fired for negligence.

------
who-knows95
how can you look at this and rule it a suicide, what level of insanity is
that.

~~~
x38iq84n
Just police kind of thinking.

------
robinduckett
Magic bullet theory I guess.

------
alex_duf
Is abcnews4 a reliable / trustworthy source of news?

~~~
empath75
It’s the local tv news station.

------
x38iq84n
I'd love to see a police reconstruction of the act.

~~~
swarnie_
We all know this isn't getting investigated correctly, if at all.

------
jacobush
So, flagged now. :-/

------
blueveia
I'm not advocating that there is not police brutality nor abusive usage of
force when dealing with situations. There definitely is and is unlikely to
change in the perceivable future.

It seems to me that the best course of action when being approached by law
enforcement is to immediately go into SUPER compliant state and SUPER static
state. Meaning, don't do any action unless told so by the law officer. Don't
move around like you normally would, anything you assume to be benign might
not be as far as they are concerned, be patient, let it unfold as fast and as
slow as they so choose. If their actions were wrong then courts are the route,
but LATER, once you are out of the predicament.

------
xd
Lot's of conspiracy theorist style comments being made so lets look at this
objectively:

1, "inside the car where she was a passenger, "contorted" her body and shot
herself through the mouth" So she was able to get her hand cuffed arms in
front of herself which would allow for control of a weapon.

2, Where did the weapon come from? Maybe it was in the patrol car, maybe she
had it on her person.

Anyway flagged as irrelevant to HN.

