
How to Make It on Craigslist - omarish
http://blog.priceonomics.com/post/16529584021/how-to-make-it-on-craigslist
======
redsymbol
The greatest part of this story is what Ryan accomplished personally. From
reading, he went from someone who consistently had great trouble
professionally, to someone who is successfully able to support himself and his
family financially.

Ryan, if you're reading this, congratulations! This appears to be a major
personal accomplishment and milestone for you. Best of luck as you grow into
your next level of success.

~~~
roseburg
Thanks! Appreciate it.

~~~
mey
Personally I've always considered craigslist to be sketchy from a buyer or
seller point of view. Since I live in Portland, I'll keep you in the back of
my mind if I need to get rid of anything I don't have time to handle myself.
I'd rather work with someone trustworthy then deal with the unknowns of
craigslist.

(Welcome to self branding. :) )

~~~
roseburg
If you go to news.google.com and type in Craigslist you will get a vastly
disproportionate number of negative/positive Craigslist stories. Muggings get
reported, smooth transactions don't.

Shoot me a message if you ever need help with something.

------
joshuahedlund
I didn't see any discussion about the cost of driving around town all the time
to pick stuff up. Still, depending on his average distance, if he averages
three items per day he might not be much worse than a lot of people's average
commutes.

~~~
roseburg
The van I drive, a Toyota Sienna, gets pretty good gas mileage . I factor
distance/time and what I will be able to sell the item(s) for before pulling
the trigger. I listen to music and relax while driving around. I avoid rush
hour traffic if at all possible. I drove approx 15-20k miles this past year
picking items up and delivering them. It's by far the biggest cost. However,
that's pretty much my only overhead, as I sell the items out of our
garage/house for now. (I've gotten pretty good at knowing what will sell and
what won't, so I stay away from items that I will have to sit on for a while
or are difficult to store.)

------
nate
I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet, but roseburg, have you considered
packaging up this wisdom you shared on this blog post as a class and make some
money teaching? I'd think you could get a bunch of students to take at least a
one session 2 hour class or something learning this stuff from you. Or even
some class online. You could video some of the interactions you have on the
phone and in person when doing the deals etc...

~~~
bprater
Yerp, in this economy, I can see loads of folks willing to pay for your
expertise in this. Make it an online class, teach folks over the phone.

------
midas
It makes sense intuitively that heavy appliances would be the most profitable.
People don't say, "sure you can have my iPod for $20" but I could see them
being willing to part with a washing machine for that price if someone would
carry it out of their third story apartment.

~~~
adamc
Yes. They will take a lesser fraction of the value in cash when there is a
positive value in getting rid of it. Small items are easy to get rid of anyway
(you could just throw it in the trash), and if they have value they may be
willing to store them and wait.

My overall reaction to the article, though, was that he's doing a fair amount
of work for a pretty so-so return, and it looks hard to scale it upwards.
(That $1,000 for the week doesn't come with any fringe benefits, like
insurance.)

~~~
roseburg
It definitely will take a lot of work to scale it, but I think it can be done.
I could probably be watching 3-4 cities at a time fairly easily. Portland has
a very active Craigslist community and I have a lot of down time waiting for
new ads to come up. On the other hand, if I'm always at the computer, I lose a
good chunk of profit on items I have someone else pickup, so I have to
increase volume to make up for it, which is not always easy. I'd love to hear
your thoughts and suggestions, as this is my main hurdle I'm facing right now.

~~~
Kluny
I'd say that a netbook with 3g internet would be a worthwhile investment, so
you could check for new deals even while your out on the job. Then you'd
always have your next destination, you could plan routes efficiently, etc.

~~~
roseburg
I have a 7" samsung galaxy tab with built in 3g from verizon. I also have a
dash mount so I use it as a gps as well as to pull up emails, addresses and
listings on the fly. It also acts as a hot spot to give internet to my laptop
when I'm traveling.

~~~
Luyt
Couldn't you make some application which scrapes Craigslist every 5 minutes
and detects newly posted items, maybe filter them on some criteria, and SMS
them to your phone?

~~~
monirz77
The CL app can do that for you. Say, you save a search for "refrigerator" in a
certain area, in the "Free" category, the app would notify you (it puts a # on
the top bar of your phone) letting you know there's a new listing for
"refrigerator". Same thing for "roommate" or "carpenter" jobs, etc.

It's pretty cool, wish I've known this app when I was looking for a free
carpet.

Interestingly enough, just last month, I bought on CL and sold a pair of
girl's snowboard boots for $15 more in a matter of 4 days. Mostly because I
really didn't want it.I was just practicing on my selling skills. I'm more
inspired after reading this.

------
unreal37
A nice story. This guy found his inner "hustler" - hustler in the positive
sense.

I sell a lot of items on craigslist, and I have no problem with the idea that
someone bought it from me to resell it because I underpriced it. Hell, if
someone threw what I gave them in the garbage, they can do that too. I no
longer want the item, I got what $ I asked for it, and I'm out of the
equation.

The only thing I'd have a problem with is if someone contacted me with a sad
story about being broke, student, unemployed, sick child, or something, and
asking for a discount. And I find out later they lied. That's where the
ethical line is for me.

~~~
roseburg
I'm straight up with people. Sometimes people will pick up on the fact that
I'm not the average consumer joe buying their appliance and they ask what I'm
going to do with them. I tell them and no one has ever complained. I show up
on time, do all the work myself, pay cash, and people are almost always happy.
I've actually got a lot of repeat business from buyers that felt I treated
them right. One guy turned out to own a large apartment complex and ended up
buying 30-40 appliances from me this past year.

------
dangrossman
This sounds like a mess to keep proper tax records for. Assuming nobody's
giving receipts on either side of the transaction, how do you keep proof of
what price you paid and what price you sold for? Audits aren't that rare.

~~~
dotBen
Not speaking for this individual in particular but in general its unlikely
that businesses like this are going to report all of their earnings, are they?
You can audit a cash business but with no receipts whole transactions never
happened or have a paper trail.

I'm not condoning tax avoidance but remember most of the people on HN either
earn six figures a year, will do in a few years and/or building startups that
might be worth $millions.

This guy is making $15-30/hr, doing part-manual labor and has 4 kids and a
wife to feed.

I guess it's a moral judgement but I feel less concerned if he was to not run
all of his cash payments through his books compared to bankers and
millionaires who put large amounts of money offshore to avoid tax.

~~~
dangrossman
At the same time, in that income range with that family, his taxes are gonna
be 0-10% of his profits at most... without the threat of being imprisoned for
tax evasion. If his "typical summer week" is his typical week all year, he
alone is already earning more than the median _household_ income for this
country... lots of people are self-employed making similar income without
benefits. Is it morally OK for a plumber to not report his income? An
electrician? What's different about a CL arbitrage business?

~~~
jcampbell1
Payroll taxes are 15.3% with no deductions. 0-10% on federal sounds about
right, but that is not really an accurate picture for what taxes would do to
his cashflow.

I agree that it is not morally OK to not report income.

~~~
dangrossman
Here's TurboTax's tax forecaster, which will do all the work, including the
self-employment (payroll) tax: <http://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-
tools/calculators/taxcaster/>

I put in my own numbers for a complicated personal return (business income,
capital gains, itemized deductions, etc) and the forecaster agreed with my
actual taxes done by a CPA, so it's not making any guesses.

Put in married, $45k in business income, 4 kids. The total federal tax bill
comes out to $3700 or 8%. Most of the tax bill was offset by the large EIC for
having kids. In reality he'd have many deductions to lower that even further,
from business use of a home, to any health insurance he buys, to part of his
car expenses and mileage...

~~~
jcampbell1
If the guy has $45k in business income, then he owes $6885 of payroll taxes
(unless he is Amish). I don't care what tool you use, that number is the
absolute floor for what he would have to pay out of pocket.

~~~
dangrossman
Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

Pull out your 2011 form 1040: <http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040.pdf>

* 56: Self-employment tax. Attach Schedule SE.

* 61: Add lines 55 through 60. This is your total tax.

* 62-72: Credits and payments, including the Earned Income Credit.

* 76: AMOUNT YOU OWE: Subtract line 72 (total credits) from line 61 (total tax).

That's where his $6.3k SE bill gets nearly wiped out by $5.5k in earned income
credit.

Credits, unlike deductions, are subtracted dollar for dollar from total tax
owed. If he files jointly with a spouse, it can actually reduce their tax bill
to $0 on that income. There's no category of taxes that can't be reduced by
EIC, including SE (payroll) tax.

~~~
jcampbell1
But he gets those credits whether or not he reports his profit. On a cashflow
basis, it will cost him 20%. You are right though, his tax bill at the end of
the year would be about 8% of $45k.

~~~
ars
That's not true - the EIC goes up when you make more (up till a limit).

------
DustinCalim
I don't see why some consider this unethical and abusive to the CL community.
It's just arbitrage; same as in Foreign Exchange markets. It tends to pop up
because values are just opinions and to forget that leads to misdirection.

~~~
rb2k_
That's exactly what I was thinking reading the post. It's nice that he is able
to make a living and support his family, but he does that on the back of
people looking for things on craigslist without providing anything of value
(besides maybe transportation). The bad part is that I'd assume people buying
things of craigslist tend to be on the lower part of the income spectrum and
he's charging them more money by "playing the market".

Does he actually tell people that he's just going to resell whatever he picks
up? I'm sure there might be some people that are uncomfortable with that.

~~~
DanBC
Plenty of people just want to get rid of stuff. They need the room or they
need to move and they don't care what happens to it. If this no-one takes it
it'll go to landfill.

He's providing a service to them. He takes the stuff away, and doesn't charge
them to do so. He might even give them some money. (Compare that to hiring a
dumpster / skip.)

~~~
rb2k_
> If this no-one takes it it'll go to landfill.

I don't think he takes landfill material since he is able to sell it on
craigslist for money only a day or two later.

~~~
DanBC
I don't know what Americans throw in landfill but in England there's plenty of
furniture or working electrical items that end up in landfill (or the modern
equivalent).

~~~
rb2k_
But not if they were on craigslist in the beginning and apparently there are
buyers. From what it seems to me, he just tries to be the fastest buyer rather
than taking things that can't find buyers

------
DustinCalim
This is a cool article; it will be interesting to see how it scales up going
forward.

I also spend a lot of time on craigslist, and this extension has saved me
hours and made browsing much more efficient:

[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/aikbdokcmcbbeaadpd...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/aikbdokcmcbbeaadpdbhlcdcgghdkhja)

Chrome only though :(

------
molecularbutter
Interesting story, it's fascinating to see what people are doing to make ends
meet in the new economy.

Similarly, I know someone who makes well over $100,000 a year buying, fixing,
and reselling things on Craigslist and eBay. They found a very specific (and
obvious) niche that is highly profitable to be in, I imagine if this guy
specialized more he will see greater returns as well.

~~~
lancewiggs
This. Becoming the regional, local, or global expert in a tightly defined
niche is a great way to lock in high margin revenues.

------
nir
I always wondered how much one can make by buying AC units on Craigslist in
December and selling them off in June, in a place like NYC where weather gets
very hot/cold :)

~~~
andrenotgiant
I do that in NYC with bikes (buy winter, from people who made impulse buys in
summer and have nowhere to store them, sell summer, to people making impulse
buys.)

I think the NYC market has so many constraints and peculiarities (plus
money!), its rife with these kind of opportunities.

------
dmotz
I built a free webapp that may be useful for such Craigslist arbitrage. It
constantly crawls Craigslist for search terms in your price range and emails
you the results (instantly or in a daily digest):

<http://lootlook.com>

~~~
Barnabas
Went to check it out. Pretty. I didn't see anything but yet another "create a
login" screen, no sample of what the email looks like. Closed tab.

~~~
dmotz
Appreciate the feedback. No one likes blocking signups, myself included.

Trouble is, the app can't serve the user without having his or her email
address on hand. I suppose I could rework the process so the user can give an
email address after seeing how the interface works.

For those curious, the emails it sends are simple lists of links, sorted by
keyword.

~~~
ars
What you should do is ask them what they want to search for, then go and do
the search and show the results. (It's OK if you show old results - not sure
what your technical architecture is.)

Then invite them with: Have these results emailed to you every day, enter your
email here:

Also, I tried to sign up using the login form - that's not cool. If there is
no match put up a page say, no such account, would you like to create it?

------
gerggerg
I really dig his attitude and sense of accomplishment. Who'd a known a pawn
shop with free pickup would be so successful.

~~~
redthrowaway
I wonder if it would be possible to scale the business. If you wrote a script
that could flag potentially lucrative items for manual review, you would
likely be able to cut out much of the searching, allowing you to target CLs in
multiple cities. If he's making $38/hr in one city, he could hire someone for
$18/hr in another to drive around and pick up / drop off items and pocket the
$20 difference.

I'd be interested to see how well this would work out.

~~~
r00fus
As he mentions several times in his posting, time sensitivity is critical.
Minutes, even seconds can make/break a deal... automation may be much slower
than a human who's constantly scanning.

Furthermore, it's clear that it's not just "pickup" and possibly "delivery"...
the author is making a clear buy/sell/bargain decision on the spot... what
happens when the pickup results in a fraudulent item?

Clearly this means that whoever is driving around needs to be trained, and
once trained, can be your competitor (I see few barriers between a trained
pickup-person and the author scanning craigslist)

Kudos to the entrepreneurial spirit here, but I highly doubt it's scaleable.

~~~
roseburg
Your spot on with what I've been wrestling with over the past months. It's
difficult, but possible. I did a trial with a friend in Houston and it worked
out well. We made a little over $200 in a day on one laptop. Communication
wise, it's definitely labor intensive at first as I'm trying to make wise
decisions over the phone and looking at pictures.

It is possible to pull it off, it's just going to take a lot of work finding
the right detail oriented/trustworthy person in another city that's in the
right situation to pull it off. Hopefully in a year I'm writing about how I
was able to scale it to multiple cities.

Thanks for the note!

~~~
ephermata
Could you hire people on www.taskrabbit.com to go pick things up for you?
You'd have to probably pay them on retainer to get the responsiveness you
need, but it's a way to recruit in different cities.

------
josephjrobison
He's got the spirit of a hustler and the swagger of a college kid. I love
stories like this of people doing not ground breaking jobs and just hustling
and making it happen.

I work in a high skilled tech job that requires lots of thinking and analysis,
and sometimes I over think and over analyze everything I'm doing, which is why
I think I admire a job that requires pure hustle. Not saying that's my cup of
tea to do full time, just something that I could apply to my everyday job to
make me more productive and focus more on doing than analyzing!

~~~
roseburg
Thanks man. Sometimes I over think things, or am too cautious. Out of 600 or
so buys that I made this past year I would have probably been better off being
a little more aggressive and taking a few more risks.

I've learned more this past year of grinding it out than from all my years of
school. (and some college) Thanks for the comment!

------
squarecat
Here, you're gonna want this:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?sclient=psy-
ab&...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?sclient=psy-
ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=cache%3Ablog.priceonomics.com%2Fpost%2F16529584021%2Fhow-
to-make-it-on-
craigslist&pbx=1&oq=cache%3Ablog.priceonomics.com%2Fpost%2F16529584021%2Fhow-
to-make-it-on-
craigslist&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=19016l19774l0l20051l6l5l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0)

------
kin
People also used to do this with eBay. I also sometimes sell on Craigslist but
I work full time so it has to be larger scale. Sometimes I buy event tickets
and sell them on Craigslist for a profit if I know there will be high demand.
The profit margin is typically at least 50%. And I make at least $100/ticket
for simply printing a piece of paper and meeting someone at Starbucks.

~~~
jeffclark
I do the same thing with tickets. And since I can make Internet, I made a site
to handle accepting the payment and getting them their PDF ticket:
<http://www.boxrowseat.com>

Made selling on CL about 1000x easier :)

------
apw
I admire this guy's work ethic, but I am a little uncomfortable with the fact
that this post is pretty much viral marketing for Priceonomics.

------
rockford
Great post good for you for hustling to take care of your family. Lots can be
said from various moral points of view however simply put he's taking care of
his family and not drawing on struggling Federal and State governments (while
actually paying his share).

A couple great points having grown up in the antique business the skill he's
developed is the ability to know the local market (buy and sell-side) for a
variety of local items.

Roseburg - a suggestion that may help you're right about a clean listing good
pictures etc... However one interesting twist I've experimented successfully
with is using Copywriting techniques to drive attention to your ads. Mainly I
did it for practice but its seems to work well having helped sell the items
far more quickly than previous CL sales I've done. I'm happy to share/email a
few examples of ads I've written with you if they would help.

Not sure the best way to connect off the comments here (since I've just
registered to leave this comment)

------
ssharp
What about operating in bigger markets, like cars, trailers, RV's, etc. ?

Or are those markets too competitive? Having sold cars on Craigslist before, I
know that there are people who are offering low values, fast sales, shortly
after posting in hopes of finding a desperate seller, so maybe these people
make profit much less likely for a trader.

~~~
Kluny
Laws vary, but you can only flip a few cars a year, like a dozen or so, before
you're required to get a dealer license. These generally cost thousands of
dollars a year and come with a lot of paperwork overhead.

------
joeblossom
I did this in college, however, since graduating and getting a full time job
I've quit.

I mainly stuck with electronics, and even then it was mostly TVs. I found that
I could very easily purchase TVs for $100-$200 less than what I could sell
them for.

It was fun, and I've seriously considered doing it on weekends again, however
now that I live in a large city (Atlanta) I feel like there is a lot more
research that has to go into an item... Mostly because people from an hour a
way from the city center will claim they are within the city and so on. In
college I was in a city of 150k people, and could get to the outer "suburbs"
in at most 30 minutes.

My current TV was one of the first 1080P 50" Plasmas... It still works
perfectly and looks great. I bought it from a couple for $750. (Bought with
the profits from selling buying and selling TVs)

------
fasteddie31003
I made a tool that does something a lot like this that uses machine learning
algorithms. I gave up on it a while back, but give it a look.
<http://ec2-184-72-247-63.compute-1.amazonaws.com>

I called it Eds-list

~~~
JOnAgain
Seems to find all the fraud listings pretty well

~~~
fasteddie31003
Yea I found that fact too. I imagine that the fraud values are outliers which
my algorithms think are good values.

------
int3rnaut
I really like your story man, and I'm glad you're succeeding but I just wanted
to voice my opinion on one of the things you said-- "Back at home I
immediately found out the cards were worthless. I had paid the kid $100 for
the cards, and eventually pestered him". Even if the kid knew, I think it's
wrong for an adult to come back and reneg on a deal with a child. There's a
big power imbalance there. You seem like a great guy, I just kind of found
that a bit unethical.

~~~
colton36
I disagree. Letting the kid get away with this teaches that there won't be any
consequences to questionable actions.

~~~
roseburg
Exactly. The kid was a junior in high school. I'm 30 years old. It wasn't like
I was picking on some little kid. The sooner someone gets called out for stuff
like this the better.

------
dockd
This is much more common than everyone here thinks. I posted a car for sale
two years ago. My first two replies were people offering half my price in
cash. While I didn't actually check with them, I assume they were dealers
(self employed or part of a business) trying to buy something below Blue Book
so they could sell it at Blue Book. It seems unlikely there are many people
sitting around looking to buy any car as long as it was a "deal".

------
mahannay
It's very impressive that he's able to earn so much money and support his
family via Craigslist, but I can't help but think about how useful (or not
useful, really) his job is for the overall economy. Basically, he's another
middleman - buying goods for a low price and selling them higher. Without him
in the picture, buyers could have purchased their items for less and saved
money. I just don't see how this job adds a service to society.

~~~
mistermann
Not to mention, when i give something away on cl, I'd like it to go to someone
that needs it, not a wheeler dealer parasite living off the goodwill of
others. Imho

~~~
driverdan
The reseller needs the money he makes too. This guy was clearly in a bad
situation when he started and being a "wheeler dealer parasite" provided for
his family that needed the money.

How is this worse than someone who needs the item getting it for free?

------
iterationx
Shouldn't post stuff like this, it invites competition.

~~~
swang
Most people aren't motivated enough to compete. They might start but they
rarely go through with it.

~~~
roseburg
Exactly, I'm not worried about raising up more competition. A very successful
business owner friend of mine said the same thing to me when I first ran it by
him.

------
92648
I love the blg post. It's very inspirational and I emailed it to a couple of
friends that might benefit from it.

Question: What about buying on Craigslist and selling on eBay or other
listings? I use both at times and noticed that each tailors certain genres
better. Do you do that or have an opinion on that?

------
senthil_rajasek
On a related note, I read this news article about "Craigslist robberies by
appointment..."

[http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2012/01/craigslist-
robb...](http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2012/01/craigslist-robberies-by-
appointment-on-rise/)

------
thinkdevcode
> I started the year with almost nothing and ended with a used van, a new
> utility trailer, less debt, fully paid bills and money left to take the
> family to Hawaii.

> less debt > family to hawaii

Something does not compute here.

~~~
chc
I think you're missing a variable that equals "Having zero debt at all times
is not everyone's highest priority".

~~~
thinkdevcode
Let's rephrase your statement:

"Paying back on things you've already purchased with someone elses money is
not everyone's highest priority"

Now we take this statement and multiply it by 34 million, and we have the
reason why America's total US consumer debt is 2.43 trillion.

I dont mean to nitpick, but I get really annoyed when people do extravagant
things when they can't afford it.

~~~
awj
> I dont mean to nitpick, but I get really annoyed when people do extravagant
> things when they can't afford it.

Everyone does. Good luck getting people to settle on _your_ definitions of
"extravagant" and "afford."

~~~
thinkdevcode
Your absolutely correct that we all have different perceptions of
"extravagance"

I think a vacation to hawaii from portland for a family of four while still in
debt is clearly extravagant, and unaffordable. But's thats just my opinion,
and I dont expect you, or anyone else, to share it.

Debt shouldn't be seen as ok to have but I think that is sadly how most
Americans view it now.

~~~
ctdonath
Depends on whether the Portland in question is in Maine or Oregon, and whether
the trip was an extravagant package or little more than a cheap-deal flight
and minimal accommodations. At a glance <http://www.cheapflights.com/flights-
to-hawaii/portland-OR/> shows a flight package of $1548 for 4. Camping,
hostels, or - here's a thought - Craigslist might open some cheap options.

------
Macsenour
This makes sense to me. I bought a house full of furniture when I moved to
North Carolina, all from CraigsList. Two years later I sold those exact items
for a $300 profit.

------
driverdan
Now he just needs to scale it. Hire a few people to go out and get the items,
use software to help filter new leads, branch out into related areas.

------
huuleon
This encourages me to try it out in my area. I would like to see how much i
can make if i try it part time if possible.

~~~
sebphfx
even with electronics built with planned obsolescence in mind, it's doable
somehow to fix them. My uncle will fix things like mini-stereos by ordering
the parts, something that most people don't think about doing. It's easier to
buy a new one.

------
CoryMathews
Is he reselling them on Craigslist or somewhere else? I seem to be missing
that part.

------
jebblue
Good work man I think it's awesome that you've found something that works for
you.

------
ExxKA
Thats a really great story. Im glad you finally had success :)

------
Cash37
Congrats Ryan. You rolled up your sleeves and made it happen.

------
arjn
Nicely done dude. Happy for you. Go Portlander!

------
ilija139
Very, very inspiring!

------
poorguy
I find it interesting that you start off the article with a sob story about
having no money and end with a vacation to Hawaii a year later. Shouldn't you
be saving some of this and investing rather than spewing what would assumably
be quite a bit on vaca? I am definitely not stingy and blow my money as I
please, by my debts are dropping, investments growing, and I haven't(by
choice) brought any hellions into this world to support that will need college
tuition soon.

Sorry to be a Debbie downer, but it irks ne to see people who have their long
term priorities all out of whack(and they usually have way more kids than they
can support)

~~~
vidarh
Did you read the article? He _has_ invested:

" I started the year with almost nothing and ended with a used van, a new
utility trailer, less debt, fully paid bills and money left to take the family
to Hawaii. "

At some point you need to make the decision to actually enjoy life too.

> Sorry to be a Debbie downer, but it irks ne to see people who have their
> long term priorities all out of whack(and they usually have way more kids
> than they can support)

Everyone hits tough times sometimes, but this is someone who clearly can
support his kids, enough so that he's been able to afford investing in a van,
a trailer, pay down his debts, _and_ take the family to Hawaii. In that
context this comment just makes you seem like an ass.

