
Airbnb Plans to Verify Every Listing - ilamont
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/dealbook/boeing-dealbook-conference.html
======
ogre_codes
From the comment in the article it sounds like they are trying to offload the
cost/ effort of verifying listings to their customers as well:

" _But he said the process would involve asking users whether the information
in certain listings turned out to be accurate_ "

So when he says AirBNB is going to verify every listing, he doesn't actually
mean they are paying people to do it...

~~~
duskwuff
Which is deeply disappointing, and makes me worried that fraudulent hosts will
work around the issue by having a co-conspirator book their room to "verify"
the listing.

~~~
situational87
It's almost like we are intentionally bending over backwards to avoid hiring
some human beings to do some real fucking work.

When did this become the mantra of every tech company? Any time a job is
created it's viewed as an unfortunate mistake or side effect? Who are we even
building all this for?

~~~
briandear
Are you suggesting hiring employees to check every single listing on AirBnB?
Does Craigslist verify every listing? For that matter, have newspapers ever
done that with their advertising? AirBnB is a marketplace connecting buyers
and sellers. Suggesting that a newspaper for instance send an employee to
verify that an advertised car in a classified ad is precisely correct is a bit
ridiculous but that’s what you seem to be suggesting with AirBnB. How is this
any different than a student newspaper running ads for rooms for rent? On the
hotel side, Booking.com doesn’t physically verify every hotel room listed
either. Overstating amenities or even outright lying is as old as real estate
and has nothing to do with “tech.”

~~~
ogre_codes
When they say “We’re going to verify all our listings” I fucking expect them
to verify listings.

When listings cost hundreds to thousands of dollars and they skim a
significant fee off every rental they need to take some significant steps to
eliminate fraud on their platform.

Craigslist is a horrible example because they don’t profit from most sales,
and they don’t process the money between buyer/ seller. If AirBnb worked like
CL, you’d be pay your host cash when you show up and if your host tried to
pull shit like this you could just walk.

------
umvi
Would it kill AirBnB to do random (or even algorithmically-determined) audits?

Auditor signs up for a night in your house. Let's say your listing has fake
pictures or fake amenities. Or you try to bait and switch the auditor by
having them stay in some crappy other property because the main listing "is
having plumbing problems".

Bam, audit failed, your account is frozen, your listings are removed, and you
are banned from using AirBnB pending investigation.

~~~
tenebrisalietum
I have a bedroom in my house that I make available through Airbnb. I live in
the house so this isn't an investment-for-Airbnb scenario.

I'm totally down for these audits, but expect the auditor to pay the fee like
anyone else if he/she stays, or if he/she consumes the timeslot that I could
have sold to someone else.

~~~
frostmatthew
Yes they would pay, you wouldn't even know the person(s) were conducting an
audit. All major hotel chains already do exactly this, typically at least once
a year and the property has no idea until weeks later when they get the (very
detailed) report.

~~~
Plyphon_
It's called 'Mystery Shopper' in retail.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_shopping](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_shopping)

------
n9
Tech company indicates a "plan" to do something that they implicitly assured
everyone that they'd be doing from the get go. I question how much effort,
cost and what the timeline would be to build the logistics to realize this
goal and, given their past performance, how many more vectors for scams they
will create along the way. They have profited from the risk that they have
pushed out to their customers, I'm not sure that they will actually do
anything substantive, but feel certain that they will make it seem as though
they are.

~~~
mekane8
I'll admit that the announcement gave me hope and made me feel positively
about AirBnB - I'm sure it was carefully crafted to do just that. But I'm glad
I came across your comment because it gave me the cold splash of realism to
balance out their PR blast.

------
elvinyung
In case anyone missed the context, this is probably related to
[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/43k7z3/nationwide-fake-
ho...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/43k7z3/nationwide-fake-host-scam-on-
airbnb)

~~~
personlurking
For which this was the HN post:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21408178](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21408178)

The service AirBnB offers is rife with problems, as can be gleaned from
reading the comments.

------
smt88
No amount of "verification" can get me to stay in an Airbnb.

There's no way for them to prevent homeowners from installing (legal) hidden
cameras, and when cameras are discovered, they defer responsibility (to
preserve their brand image).

A hotel, by contrast, can't legally have hidden cameras and takes the full
brunt of the bad PR if one is discovered.

~~~
malkuth23
It is definitely not legal to setup hidden cameras anywhere that would be
private inside your Airbnb.

[https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/108/s1301/text](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/108/s1301/text)

Also, Airbnb asks you if there are any cameras in any place on your property
and it is a violation to have cameras even on your front porch without
acknowledging them.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is definitely not legal. It also
happens in hotels on occasion and not always with the managements knowledge.

~~~
smt88
It's legal. Airbnb didn't (doesn't?) forbid it![1] They aren't even courageous
enough to do that much.

> _has the intent to capture an image of a private area of an individual
> without their consent_

This law is basically forbidding voyeur porn.

A host could install a "security" camera in a living room. For a studio
apartment, that would also be a bedroom. That's completely legal. Perhaps the
camera is installed, but it's "not turned on". All legal.

But once the landlord steps across the line by turning the camera on,
publishing videos, etc., the law is broken, but it's already too late.

1\. [https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/airbnb-you-might-be-
ca...](https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/airbnb-you-might-be-camera-
whether-you-it-or-not-n974776)

~~~
malkuth23
Airbnb policy (and the law) forbids putting a camera in private spaces. If you
are renting a room in a house that has shared public spaces, the host could
put a camera in the kitchen for example, but it has to be disclosed (there is
a place to do this on the description section of the website). This is
comparable to a hotel having cameras in the lobby, elevator and hallway, but
not in your hotel room.

~~~
smt88
It's not at all like cameras in a hotel lobby because I can't rent a hotel
lobby. Airbnb guests expect privacy throughout the home when they rent the
whole thing.

When you have a whole-home Airbnb, you may do private things in the living
room or kitchen. For many people, a video of them watching a movie with a
homosexual partner is dangerous because of the laws in their country.

------
fourmii
I like the original premise of AirBnB, where homeowners could rent out a spare
bed or their home when they were on vacation. But seems like these days, those
homeowners are either all gone, or are being hugely outnumbered by scammers or
AirBnB businesses. We (a group of 5 friends) just finished a trip in Vietnam
and we used AirBnB3 times. And all 3 times, the listings were not exactly
truthful. The worst was a listing in Hanoi that claimed to be able to fit 12
adults. When we arrived, we could only identify 4 queen beds (2 of which were
jammed together in 1 room). The other 2 listings we used were in the same
complex in Saigon. We booked the listings based on our criteria of having a
single home with at least 5 bedrooms. Both listings turned out to be 2
separate apartments. Both are in a complex claimed to be among the first in
Saigon to disallow AirBnB. Both times, we had to pretend to the receptionists
that we were long term renters. We wanted AirBnB so that we could chill
together in a common space. These experiences make use want to book hotels
next time...

------
rhacker
Please just stop using them. I just passed up on buying a house because the
neighbors were - you guessed it, an airbnb. I was lucky to have found out
before I got into a contract. It's always great when you find out the reason
someone is selling - isn't it?

~~~
jimmaswell
Why would anybody care their neighbor is an AirBnB?

~~~
dawsmik
He likely means they are a poorly managed AirBnB. People often throw parties,
are loud, etc... when the host doesnt manage them well.

~~~
rhacker
The cars that come one day might be hip hop. The next it's loud base music
that distracts everyone from what they're doing. No matter what the rules are
for the AirBNB, you can't control the people arriving and leaving. That's
different from having a single neighbor that leaves for work at 6am, listens
to country, and gets back at home at 3. Now you have distractions all day long
from random, unexpected noises at unexpected times.

It's not a question of if you "can" put up with that. It's if you "would" put
up with that given a choice of having a stable, quiet neighbor, or a random
neighbor every day that makes different sounds (and smells - smoking? vaping?
MJ?). What about police arriving, ambulances? People bring a lot of crazy.

------
tempsy
What verification tech/processes does Airbnb have at all? I haven't hosted in
a few years but I don't recall ever uploading any document (i.e. a utility
bill, a mortgage doc, a rental agreement, etc.) with my address on it to prove
that I even live in the place that I was attempting to rent out.

Seems like they've let this all slide for way too long and it's all catching
up to them at the worst possible moment.

------
accidentaldev
They should make it mandatory, every user should be forced to answer certain
question after their stay or pay a fine - they can pitch it as a 5% discount

Next advancement would be to tax every stay and use it to an agency that would
establish rules on “hosts” and regulations on room conditions.

After that, next advancement would be to realize this has existed for 200
years and is called government.

~~~
CaptainZapp
_They should make it mandatory, every user should be forced to answer certain
question after their stay or pay a fine - they can pitch it as a 5% discount_

Yeah, sure. After I get the privilege to stay in a soulless, cookie cutter
appartment where I have to tiptoe around the neighbors because the lease is
illegal and pay essentially the same amount as for a hotel room, I also get
threatened with a fine for not working for free for AirBnb?

And all that while possibly recorded by hidden cameras, which are not part of
the description and for which AirBnb doesn't really give a fuck, unless
there's some bad PR to counter?

I think I stick with hotel rooms.

------
lemoncucumber
I don't see anything about addressing retaliatory negative reviews, which
seems like a not insignificant part of the problem as described in the Vice
article ([https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/43k7z3/nationwide-fake-
ho...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/43k7z3/nationwide-fake-host-scam-on-
airbnb))

~~~
heurist
That part seemed odd to me, neither hosts or guests can see the others'
reviews until after both have submitted (or the review period expires).

~~~
matheist
If a guest complains to customer support, and support contacts the host about
it, then the host can retaliate on the support request.

guest => support: "the place was filthy, I want a refund"

support => host: "guest says it was filthy is that true"

host => support: "lol no"

host reviews guest: "terrible, all they did was complain, beware"

------
djohnston
My worst AirBnb was let via a proxy agent. The flat wasn't actually rentable
even though it was online, and so I showed up to a locked flat, no key, with
all of my bags in a new city. AirBnB refunded it and gave me 50 AirBnb Bucks
(TM). I only do hotels now, unless someone else is handling the reservation.

~~~
lostdog
The worst thing about AirBnB is that they make no effort to fix the problem.

When on a vacation, and we found our AirBnB had fewer beds than advertised, we
complained, and then were told that the owner wanted us "out immediately." So
now we're stranded in a new city. Great.

AirBnB offered to put us up anywhere cheaper than the _original_ price we had
booked. Of course, booking 2 months in advance is much cheaper than the same
day, so everywhere they offered was >60 miles away. And this was an urban
location, so no, we didn't have a car either.

So we gave up and stayed in a hotel. Two months later, after many rounds of
negotiating over the phone, AirBnB finally reimbursed us the full amount.
Being stranded in a new city sucked, and it's obvious that AirBnB's policies
for fixing issues are purposefully bad, so AirBnB is now a last resort for us.

So I can recommend AirBnB as a great option if you're ok with a 10% chance of
having nowhere to sleep that night!

~~~
bkor
Via the stories from "talesfromthefrontdesk" I learned that hotels will pay a
room for you in another hotel in case they cannot accommodate you (e.g.
overbooking). IMO AirBNB should by law have a similar rule. This as (as you
say) last minute prices are indeed significant higher than booking in advance.
Further, the risk should be on AirBNB, not on the customer.

------
jonplackett
What’s happening? This link goes to an article about poli tal ads on Twitter,
not Airbnb.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/dealbook/boeing-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/dealbook/boeing-
dealbook-conference.html)

~~~
rkangel
I think someone must have mistakenly edited the link? This appears to be the
correct article: [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-
li...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-
listings.html)

------
abawany
Direct link to the article:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-
li...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-
listings.html) .

~~~
ilamont
If @dang or other moderators are reading, I agree the link should go to this
article ... when I posted the Dealbook link, the Airbnb news was at the top.
It has since been pushed down the page.

------
eiopa
The 24/7 support sounds promising. This has been their Achilles heel for many
years.

Anecdotally, I once checked into an Airbnb with a leaky roof. After spending a
good 20 minutes trying to get to a human (a small eternity when you’re in an
unfortunate situation), Airbnb asked that I spend hours negotiating with my
non-responsive host on a solution, which is obviously nonsensical given the
situation.

Being able to instantly talk to someone and feel like I am being taken care of
would have made all the difference in the world. Instead, I churned from their
platform.

------
rb808
While we're here, Congrats to Jersey City for regulating short term rentals
like AirBnB. I'd hate to have to live next to a AirBnB unit.

~~~
HeavenFox
I live in Jersey City, and the high-rise apartment buildings on the waterfront
are pretty much half landlord-operated AirBnB now, since Jersey City
essentially absorbed all the demand from NYC which already banned short term
rental. It's getting out of hand. I certainly welcome the ban.

I lived next to short term rental for a long time (and might still do, not
sure). It's a mixed bag. Since it's short term rental it's empty half the
time, which is good because I don't hear the noise from them. However during
check-in and check-out time it takes a long time to get an elevator.

The only thing I am afraid of is whether the landlord would increase the rent
to cover the lost revenue from short term rental.

------
jonnsl
Link to source: [https://news.airbnb.com/in-the-business-of-
trust/](https://news.airbnb.com/in-the-business-of-trust/)

------
binarysolo
This kinda makes sense - esp since housing inventory is a recurring revenue
generator.

That being said, I am curious how much of the inspection cost they'd pass on
to the lister -- it seems like getting a guy out to check each listing is
gonna be $25-$100 an inspection depending on how many places you can lump
together, so someone's gotta pay the costs there.

Maybe the end result will be an "AirBnB-verified" badge and increased search
exposure (a la Amazon FBA/Prime listings have better ranking, or like one of
those a pay-to-play Alibaba approved vendor kinda badge that creates financial
downside for people who spuriously list lots of fake listings)? At which point
I can see the choices for AirBnB hosts become "pay X to get verified" or
basically don't get traffic.

Am also curious how this would play out more as plenty of under-the-table
renters (barred from AirBnBing by their HOA) would end up getting enhanced
visibility of their activities due to these verifications. The whole
obfuscating address thing on AirBnB seemed to be a huge hack to get around
HOA/landlord/legal rules so extra verification would seem to hurt some core,
grey part of the business too.

~~~
wuschel
> so someone's gotta pay the costs there.

I checked out yesterday from my Airbnb apartment. In addition to the normal
host rating questionaire I was sent to a fairly detailed additional set of
forms: as the last customer in the apartment I was asked to rate what
apartment details I had found to be as advertised. The forms were optional.

------
toss1
AirBnB's existing guest verification process loks onerous, but is trivial to
work-around.

For some reservations, they demand to have your Driver's License image, both
sides (to include he various barcodes, etc.) and some other items.

For a friend who did not want the risk of having their full set of data
floating around out there, I used some readily available & free tools to make
some (self-consistent) edits to the documents to reduce personal
identification risk in that DB of IDs.

Although quite bogus, the docs passed verification instantly. So, now, AirBnB
and the host now erroneously think that they have a verified guest, when they
have no such thing.

Their verification is not only an onerous process that crates a massive
honeypot of personal-ID information just waiting to be hacked & stolen, it is
also a farce insofar as filtering out even any mildly motivated person,
whether intent on protecting their privacy, or on scamming.

Dubious that their host-side listing will be any more valid.

~~~
ajxs
I really wish I'd have thought of doing this. I'm really uncomfortable sharing
this kind of information. I understand and support what they're trying to
accomplish by doing this, but I've learned better than to trust the security
and privacy of such data. Thanks for pointing this out!

~~~
say_it_as_it_is
read my response to this comment before you do

~~~
ajxs
Thank you for a very well thought out response. You make several great points
there. First of all that this constitutes fraud, and secondly that the license
information _should_ not be persisted in any form anyway.

------
trustfundbaby
Should have been doing that from the get go, but better late than never.

I'd like to see specifics though, how often do they plan to do these
verifications?

What happens if someone puts up a listing just to get verified, then cleans it
out and goes about business as usual?

What about hosts that let their place fall into disrepair over the years? etc

------
canada_dry
Anytime I see a story about Airbnb I like to point out:
[https://www.airbnbhell.com](https://www.airbnbhell.com)

I found this site after being the victim of the now infamous "oh sorry
something wrong with your flat" scam. What was supposed to be an "executive
suite" turned out to be a cockroach ridden dump.

Not sure if Airbnb has improved since but they were utterly useless in
refunding my money, let alone helping me find alternate accommodations.

I have used Airbnb since, but as a last resort and after way too much effort
to separate what might be scams from (hopefully) legit listings.

I agree with the poster further on who says you need to be prepared (have a
plan 'b') for the chance that the booking will fall through at the last
minute.

------
drewbt
It’s about time.

Earlier this year I moved to Cape Town, with an Airbnb booked for the first
month.

I was the first guest, and the place did not meet even the most basic
standards of hygiene. What’s worse is that there was still evidence of the
place being used as a crack house.

Needless to say, I refused to stay there and Airbnb gave a full refund.

All of this could have been avoided by a simple verification system.

Any new listing should, at the very least, be viewed and assessed against a
list of basic standards before a paying guest arrives at the door.

~~~
bkor
> Needless to say, I refused to stay there and Airbnb gave a full refund.

I don't think that's good enough. You were relying on that accommodation. Now
the worst for AirBNB is that they won't make money. So there's no incentive to
do anything about it. Further, if you suddenly need to switch accommodations
the last minute price will be much higher than usual.

AirBNB should fix the accommodation problem they caused. They must/should
offer an alternative.

------
enra
FYI people asking about the verifications. The Plus listings (as well as lux)
are all verified by someone, has specific standards, including the amenities.
So if you worry about the quality, search for plus listings (hit the filters
on search page and select plus)

My guess this means they will extend/move more listings to the plus category
over time.

(Disclaimer: used to work at Airbnb)

------
deadmik3
unrelated to the article but it is really dumb that ny times doesn't have
anchor linking right to specific headlines if they're going to put every
article on the same page. I was wondering why this linked to an article about
Kim Kardashian before I scrolled halfway down the page, past every ad of
course...

~~~
abawany
This is a link to a daily NYT newsletter (Dealbook), which is why I think you
saw the strangeness. Here is the direct link:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-
li...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-
listings.html) .

------
tjbiddle
Good. Living in SEA, the number of times where I want to book an AirBnb and
they advertise it as "Entire house" and it ends up being a single room and
shared living is ridiculous. It takes me 10x as long to vet out and find a
place out here. And even then, I'm disappointed the majority of the time.

~~~
notyourwork
Plenty of hotels in SEA.

~~~
tjbiddle
The reason I book an AirBnb is that I want my home away from home. I don't
want a hotel. I want to pop into an area that I'm visiting and feel as if I
have my own space.

~~~
notyourwork
There’s hotels that provide this, look for long term hotels. They will have
kitchens and everything else. If those don’t work than you are going to have
to gamble with Airbnb. I used to use Airbnb for same reason but found
inconsistency and don’t have patience to hope the place is adequate. Therefore
I went back to hotels.

~~~
tjbiddle
You still don't understand. I don't want a hotel with a kitchen and all that
jazz. That's still a hotel.

I want a house. I want a garden. I want a pool. I want some trees. I want a
living room. I want it to be a literal home.

~~~
notyourwork
No I do, I just don’t have patience to be gambling when I travel and AirBnb is
a crap shoot as of late.

------
djohnston
More generally, I think we're living in the moment where all successful
startups acknowledge the fact that growth means more people, and more people
means higher likelihoods of terrible behavior, since humans are on average a
terrible organism, at least in relation to the values we espouse.

~~~
verisimilitudes
_since humans are on average a terrible organism, at least in relation to the
values we espouse._

Surely you recognize the irony in stating this here, considering the pieces of
shit who create these startups are responsible for making the world worse at a
large scale, purely for their own gain, right?

It's obscene to me how you've written this. These startups ignore major laws,
break numerous consumer protection laws as well, purposefully provide
mechanisms intended to hurt anyone but themselves, erode societal trust, and
even kill people, and yet you're blaming the people these vampires feed from?

------
break_the_bank
My worst AirBnb experience was a bait and switch. A different unit in the same
building. A lot smaller unit mind you. The host wouldn't agree but sharing
pictures with Airbnb, they ruled in my favor and refunded half(after AirBnb
service charges).

~~~
on_and_off
wow... they would not even refund in full. Classy way to handle issues in your
platform Airbnb.

------
adventureartist
It seems the big thing Airbnb should be verifying is the fake "hosts", where
an LLC is renting out a dozen units or more in a city as a business, but then
lying to the customer that they are renting "Jack and Judy's flat".

------
rehasu
Okay, are they planning an IPO or are they planning to get bought? I'd guess
IPO. Otherwise increasing amount of rentals would probably be more important
than making sure everything is legally air tight.

------
bredren
When will Airbnb ban hidden cameras?

~~~
colejohnson66
They already do. Kindof. If you don’t put it in your listing, you can be
banned. Or so I’ve heard.

------
whywhywhywhy
The fact they didn't already is frankly shocking. Imagine turning up at a
random house the other side of the world and being scammed.

------
mattsfrey
Anyone read the updated article? Clinton applauds twitter for banning
political ads and encourages facebook to do the same.. All this does is shift
all of the power to those that can buy the mainstream media outlets

------
wyclif
The link is bad.

~~~
uncoder0
Yeah link not working for me either.

------
lomutinaci
this will make a lot of listings go away, specially if you have to wait for
them to come and verify

------
agoodthrowaway
Is this just a secret shopper?

------
crorella
Is airbnb still a thing ?

