
300 actions a minute? Truly mastering StarCraft - MikeCapone
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/07/excellence-of-execution-video-of-starcraft-mastery.ars
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johnfn
> According to this video, you need to be over 300 APM to be competitive.

> That means in 60 seconds, you need to accomplish over 300 things.

These are totally different. Although a pro SC player accomplishes a lot more
than a beginner, I'm pretty sure there's no one out there that's actually
doing 300 different things a minute - they are just pressing buttons 300
times. Most of it is switching between hotkeys to check if units are complete,
ordering units to slightly different positions, etc. There's a lot of spamming
going on too (like mashing the first hotkey for no good reason) to keep the
APM rate high.

~~~
alexyim
Nope. I think the article understates this but there is a difference between
APM and EAPM. eAPM (Effective APM) is probably what he was getting at.

Semi-pros can have APMs of 200-700, with 70% of their actions being actions
like spamming multiple right clicks. So their EAPM may be from 60-210 only,
most in the bottom range.

Real pros have 60% or more of their clicks as unit/selection group selection,
etc so they're a lot more useful.

In battles, some pros even peak up to 500-600 APM. So that may be an EAPM of
300-360 or more.

There's a vast level of skill difference between the top pros and semi-pros.

~~~
light3
There's an American warcraft3 player who does around 120apm(as I recall)
called Axslav and he was quite good, not a top pro but good enough to beat
other pros with good strategy.

On the side note you can actually see how pros are micro-ing by spamming
ctrl-c (at a good apm) when watching replays, it centralises the screen on
what the player is currently selecting and can be fascinating to watch.

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MikeCapone
What I'd like to know is how these guys avoid suffering from repetitive strain
injuries (RSI)? Or do they just play through the pain? Or maybe they drop like
flies from the competitive gaming world after a few years because their bodies
can't take it anymore?

My hands hurt just looking at that video...

~~~
jat850
I'm curious too. One thing that strikes me as unusual (and perhaps others can
lend some sort of insight here) is that I have been working with PCs on a
daily basis, often for excessive lengths of time (12-16 hours a day or more)
for about 24 years now.

At no time during any of these years have I ever encountered symptoms of RSI,
or required any special breaks. I have terrible posture and I don't go to any
lengths to protect myself against RSI, either. I've wondered if perhaps moving
in a more digitally-inclined direction has somehow led to us being more
conditioned to deal with these repetitive movements, or if I'm just lucky (or,
more scary to think about, destined for some sort of horrible crippling onset
of RSI at some point soon)?

~~~
Silhouette
I'm much the same. I always figured it was one of those things where when
you've always used your body to do certain things from an early age, it's so
well adapted that the action is no signficant burden at all.

Most people can walk a very long way without becoming too tired, even if they
could only run or cycle a short distance. Their threshold for that kind of
activity is low enough that walking just doesn't tax them.

Personally, I have a limit on how many push-ups or crunches I can do in a set:
with training over the years, the numbers have gone up, but I always start to
feel it after a while and eventually I have to stop. However, I know people
who can outlast a bleep tape and still be doing crunches with correct form and
only a little tiredness. It's so easy for them that there is negligible
cumulative fatigue.

Personally, I've been using computers since I was small, and I also play a
musical instrument and play sports that involve a lot of arm/wrist/hand
movements. I've never adopted the kind of "bad habits" that many people of my
generation who only started typing lots as adults have: I've just always kept
my hands relaxed, wrists aligned, etc. because using my hands and fingers
efficiently comes naturally to me. Maybe we're both just lucky, but I suspect
we also have bodies that have adapted to this particular kind of task from an
early age and we've never got into the kinds of bad habits that tend to
exacerbate any natural predisposition to RSI. Which is still lucky in a way, I
suppose.

~~~
MikeCapone
Exercising is probably what helps you. Most RSI sufferers don't exercise
enough (myself included).

I don't think it has to do with habit; a lot of RSI sufferers, myself
included, started using computers very young. Humans have evolved to walk long
distances, but we haven't evolved to sit all day holding our arms in front of
us in a relatively static position, doing repetitive wrist and hand movements.
If on top of that you don't exercise, have weak muscles overall and bad blood
flow... Well, that's asking for trouble.

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d0m
By the way, the second player we see is MooN.. many says he's the best player
of war3 of all time since he's been at the top scene for so much time.

And it's true that in warcraft3, APM is less important than starcraft since
you have less "things" to do, but the thing you actually focus on are way more
important.

And by the way, 300 apm is an exageration.. usually it's around 250+ and
again, this is not always necessary. For instance, in the first 30-45 seconds
of the game, you could actually use only 30 apm or so.. however, spamming
(mass clicking) helps some players to focus and be ready for when the game
"really" start.

~~~
borisk
>>300 apm is an exageration.. usually it's around 250+

Actually all top Terran players(Flash, Ruby, Fantasy) have around 400 APM. The
other 2 races are not so micro intensive, but still 300 is not good enough to
win a big torney.

~~~
aperiodic
I hear that Baby's peaks are about 500-600 APM

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MikeCapone
For those who would like to see some high-level games of Starcraft 2 with
commentary, check out these Youtube channels:

<http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft>

<http://www.youtube.com/user/Huskystarcraft>

It's surprisingly entertaining if you are familiar with the game, and almost
all videos are available in 1080p.

~~~
JeremyBanks
If you want some actual insight and analysis, Day[9]'s the way to go:
<http://day9tv.blip.tv/>

~~~
MikeCapone
Yes, I should probably have added that link. But if you are a newbie to
Starcraft, you should probably start with HDsc and Husky to get familiar with
the game. They're more like sports commentators, while Day[9] is more like a
chess teacher.

~~~
lawn
Actually I think the other way around that you should watch Day9 if you're new
as he explains everything better.

~~~
MikeCapone
I can see how that makes sense. I guess it depends on your type of personality
and what will hook you more. It's the difference between listening to a song
and looking at the sheet music and trying to understand how it works.

Some people might like one more than the other in the beginning, and I assumed
that most people would probably like to simply listen to the song before
diving in the mechanics. But maybe that's wrong with this crowd.

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avar
I wish there was something like StarCraft, but where you can actually focus on
_command_. A real general wouldn't be ordering individual units around, and
it's silly that most strategy games implement things at that level.

You should just be able to give high-level commands like "build a base there",
"focus on Air-to-Ground development" etc.

~~~
scdlbx
Civilization?

~~~
avar
It's a strategy game, but it's not in the "compete with someone for 20-60
mins" followed by the game being reset category.

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VictorHo
If I weren't addicted to Starcraft myself, I would be linking to the "How to
lose time and money" discussion.

Maybe it's more relevant for me because I'm addicted and not competitive.

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10ren
For typists, 60 words per minute is about 60x6=360 key presses per minute (6 =
ave word length of 5 + a space).

Watch a guitarist's or pianist's fingers, and it's quite amazing how fast the
movements are (even or especially when the fingers are your own). Writing with
a pen requires surprisingly rapid movements. It can be quite hard to even
follow them - the hand really is quicker than the eye. We have amazing
engineering.

------
hristov
APM is not that important. It is just the age old problem that a measurable
factor will tend to overshadow other factors that are not as easily
measurable.

What is much much more important for the game of Starcraft is split second
decision making ability to micro and macro, overall awareness, having a large
number of possible strategies and unit interactions stored in your mind and
ready for instant recall, etc., none of which are really measurable.

A player that has less APM can be much better at micromanaging his/her units
than a player with larger APM. The less APM player can just make sure that all
those clicks and button presses count more.

Blizzard decided to measure current APM and give you a real time readout for
Starcraft 2 which very predictably resulted in a lot of spamming, i.e.,
players meaninglessly cliking their mouse and pressing buttons in order to
raise their APM and to convince anyone watching them that they are really
really good.

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borisk
Pro games from Korea:

<http://www.youtube.com/user/jon747#g/u>

<http://www.youtube.com/user/nevake#g/u>

For first person view search for videos with FPVOD in the name.

~~~
aperiodic
Those will be meaningless for anyone who hasn't watched a lot of pro Starcraft
already. It took me six months before I felt comfortable watching games
without english commentary.

I'd suggest starting with the Gom TV tournaments, which have commentary geared
towards those new to Korean Starcraft:

<http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/>

After that, I'd suggest violetak, which does pretty good sports-style
commentary, or Day9, who does really in-depth analysis (although he's starting
to focus almost exclusively on SC2).

violetak: <http://www.youtube.com/user/VioleTAK>

Day9:
[http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104...](http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104154)

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ghempton
I have played SC, WC3 and the SC2 Beta and I love them all, but I feel as
though they need to implement a more complex macro system to allow for
advanced players to not need APM's this high. For me personally, it is just
too tiring (physically) to attempt to consistently play 100+ APM games.

------
jhg
Anyone else sees this as an opportunity to design a better high-performance
gaming UI?

~~~
albemuth
The current UI is very well designed for SC2, the video highlights what it
takes to play in perhaps the top 1%

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zyb09
Heh, it seems a lot of Starcraft enthusiasts are lurking around HN. Last time
I've been on /r/starcraft's IRC channel half of the people where programmers
(no not progamers). Coincidence, you tell me! :)

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kbob
Compare this to the number of notes a decent jazz pianist plays. Then compare
the number of hours required to really master either craft.

(Jazz because jazz is generally extemporaneous, like gaming)

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sliverstorm
I want to enjoy SC2, but stuff like this makes me worry I'll have to devote my
life and become a maniac to be good enough to even have fun.

~~~
babycakes
It is unnecessary to work that hard at it to enjoy it. SC2 matches you against
players of equivalent skill level. It may be an ego bruise to be in the bronze
level instead of platinum or diamond, but you can still have fun with it.

/silver level, APM 65

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oskarkv
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijf6RysNq9I#t=36m37s>
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijf6RysNq9I#t=39m05s> Looks like he's been
playing hockey or something, not a computer game.

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someone_here
You may notice that the player repeatedly strikes the same key in quick
succession. Usually this is what some call "Spam" and count as actual actions
for this metric but are not discrete actions that affect gameplay.

~~~
mcantor
A friend of mine started getting involved in the competitive Starcraft scene,
and I noticed this tendency while watching him play. I think that any given
player's APM is non-trivially influenced by the numerical "pissing contest"
effect; every time I see a video like this it makes me want to see someone get
really skilled while maintaining a reasonable APM and mop the floor with
everyone else, just to show that it's a silly measurement.

EDIT: Full disclosure; I have played Starcraft since it came out in 1996, I
possess a so-called "reasonable APM," and my spamming friend with an APM in
the triple-digits could wreck me probably without even looking at the screen.
I will never forget watching my entire fully-upgraded army somehow crumble
impotently against a small, carefully-controlled contingent of foot soldiers
at the perimeter of his base.

"ur micro is terrible dude, lol"

When did I hit the button that turned my guys into _papier-mâché_?!

~~~
mquander
I felt this way until I tried it. The rationalization, which I agree with as
well, is that spamming in the early game and keeping up a steady rhythm "warms
you up" in a way that makes it easier to maintain that speed when you really
need it for micro-intensive portions of the game. So I don't believe it's
really a pissing contest for very many players. (Although it's a poor metric.)

Also worth considering is that high APM is an unnatural requirement imposed by
some limitations particular to SC:BW -- no automining, huge armies but a
control group size limit, queued units consume minerals immediately (thus
queueing is suboptimal.) In other RTSes without limitations like this, it's
much more practical to have a lower APM. For example, in WC3, which has less
units on the field at once and less base management, some players have been
successful at a near-pro level with only around 60 APM. In SC2, with
automining and large control groups, it seems like the best current players
are frequently only between 100-150.

~~~
lawn
Note that it's 100-150 apm on SC2's fast setting even though you're actually
playing at faster, so the apm is actually higher.

~~~
mquander
I forgot about that, thank you.

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metamemetics
I had programmed an APM counter for the SC2Beta that either:

A)autoreports your APM every 10 seconds, or

B)warns you when your APM is below a user defined threshold

let me know if there is any interest and I'll release it (windows only atm).

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levesque
For Dota/Heroes of Newerth an apm of 100 is plenty enough!

~~~
crystalis
You just compared a one unit game to an entire army.

~~~
levesque
And explained part of the reason why I prefer the one unit game, because to be
a pro it doesn't require you to be a total freak.

~~~
crystalis
Where did you point out that you prefer the one unit game?

Essentially everything you put in this second comment is absent from the
first- it's in your head, but not anyone else's until you say it. Anyone who
knows what Dota is will know why it only needs 100 apm, but to anyone who
doesn't? It's disingenuous. Your value judgment of 300 apm was completely
absent, as was your reason for your (again, unmentioned) preference.

It's not even clear how you prefer the one unit game- to play, or to watch?
They both merit claim as a spectator sport. Is your preference complete,
partial, or completely uninspected? Not everyone thinks like you (snark:
thankfully), so please do us some favors and try not to leave all your
relevant assumptions outside of the conversation.

~~~
levesque
You really are a nice guy.

Seriously, go pick your Internet fights somewhere else.

~~~
crystalis
Care to point out the fight? I'm not seeing it.

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swah
And I get wrist pain from doing C-x b a hundred times per day!

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omarqureshi
mtw DaviN used to have like 90 apm and that was enough to school great players
like Zacard.

Sure, that was Warcraft 3, but apm isn't everything, it's what you do with it.

~~~
xenophanes
DaviN doesn't "school" Zacard. Even relatively low apm pros like grubby and
tod played with 200+ apm, and grubby's apm has gone up recently.

I can play with 90 apm, and let me tell you I do lots of stuff late and some
not at all. 90 apm is not at all competitive with pros (though you could still
win sometimes if something big goes your way, e.g. unscouted expansion and
some good creep steals).

~~~
omarqureshi
Learn your facts sir, what he did at EPS was schooling.

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bokchoi
This is why I like simple turn based games like Wesnoth.

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borisk
BTW Starcraft 2 beta phase 2 just started in US.

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tman
The importance of APM always struck me as evidence of misguided design in
Starcraft/Starcraft II. It takes emphasis off the parts I find fun (the
strategy), and puts it on the parts of the game that aren't interesting at
all: micromanagement of units is just drudgery.

To increase the strategy and reduce the drudgery, you could either implement
APM restrictions directly on the player (drop clicks, etc. -- very annoying)
or you could design units to be maximally effective by default, without
micromanagement.

~~~
jasonlotito
Actually, that's the nice thing with SC2. First, APM apparently has gone down
with SC2 because a lot of the drudgery is being taken care of. Most of the APM
is spent on macro and micro that makes a real difference. Micro is an
important element of the game. Watch some good games on YouTube, and you can
see how players will micro certain units in a controlled movement
(Move/Shoot/Move/Shoot), or splitting different units up rather than just
blindly moving them forward in a single mass.

That being said, the second part is really where the new Battle.Net and SC2
design shines. I'm not a pro-player by any stretch of the imagination.
However, SC2 makes playing online fun. The majority of the games I play are
intense, even though I'm hitting only about 40 APM. The match making system is
excellent, and so each game I'm playing against people who are usually at my
skill level.

So rather than change the game, they worked hard at good match making, and
they succeeded.

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keytweetlouie
Simply put. the most useful article on hacker news...ever. I bow in envy to
the 300+ apm people.

