
“I was fired from my internship for proposing a more flexible dress code” - wdr1
http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-internship-for-writing-a-proposal-for-a-more-flexible-dress-code.html
======
schneidmaster
It's sad to see that this is turning into millennial-bashing, both from the
disclaimer the author had to insert at the top and the first few comments here
on HN. The interns learned a valuable lesson about the way the world works:
there are people who both possess authority and value customs like placing
particular styles of cloth on your feet; and if you decide to work for such
people and don't show them the proper deference, you might get fired.
Sometimes, you are in a financial and/or life situation where you have to shut
up and take it. But it's asinine to trumpet this as millennial entitlement.
It's millennials asking perfectly reasonable questions about why certain
things are the way they are. Some of these questions are about trivial things,
like an innocuous dress code. Other questions are about incredibly meaningful
things, like how forcing women to wear heels is a product of patriarchal
culture and can drive women out of particular careers (disclaimer: I have no
idea whether that was the case here). If your only response to an office
custom being questioned is to tout your authority and sneer at the insolence
of the youth these days, it's clearly not the youth that believe they're
entitled.

~~~
sago
According to the original letter, the writer and other interns _did_ ask their
individual managers, and were told no, without repercussion. Their response
was to band together and create a petition to 'argue' their point. The
petition, not their discussions with the manager, got them fired.

Taking collective action to try and overturn your manager's decision to
enforce pre-existing and clear company rules, is pretty entitled. To do that
when you're an unpaid intern, suggests a high degree of entitlement to me.

Whether that justifies millennial bashing, or whether all generations are like
that at 18, is another matter.

~~~
foota
Why does the fact that they're unpaid interns matter?

~~~
smsm42
Unpaid internship usually means they need the job more than the job needs
them. This is not the best situation to be in, for sure, but that's the power
dynamics usually.

~~~
foota
While it's true that in the short term the position benefits the intern more,
I think that internships can be a significant part of an effective college
grad recruiting program. Not just directly, but from mindshare and word of
mouth.

~~~
smsm42
This is true, and I've worked in a company that had a very successful
internship program and hired very good people as a result of it. However, when
people start with pressuring you on dress code being interns, you can't help
but wonder how the matters would be developing further... And then you ask -
are they really _that_ good that I should take a risk, or it's easier to me to
just pass on them? Looks like in this case the decision was "pass".

------
vermontdevil
A petition! And mostly from interns! On a mundane topic about dress codes!

Hopefully these interns learned a hard lesson. Talk to the manager first. Find
out what flexibility you might get from these clothing code. If none, just go
through the summer and leave with some understanding how to deal with this in
the future.

Petition! Wow.

------
meddlepal
Sucks it had to end that way, but an important lesson to learn now rather.

You CAN negotiate just about anything but you need to have the political
capital to spend. Knowing when to pick your battles and which ones you can win
is also an important life lesson.

~~~
pmiller2
I agree 100%. This is why I say "Yes" to every single meeting request and
mostly don't question the way things are done for the first few months of any
new job. You have to get established before you can even hope to influence how
things are done.

I do feel that firing the lot of them was really an overreaction. What they
should have done was treated it as a teachable moment and explained the
situation and why their response was exactly the wrong thing to do.

On the other hand, in their place, I'm not sure I'd want to work for someplace
that would fire a whole group of people for something so small. As another
comment puts it, the best places to work are those that treat interns the same
as other junior employees.

~~~
jeffdavis
It may have been an overreaction in the abstract, but they are trying to run a
business. If things like this had been going on for a while, then eventually
someone is going to say "this isn't a political campaign, it's a business, and
these interns are in the way".

You can't give due process and full consideration to every inane idea. The
business will come to a standstill.

------
sbov
A petition isn't the best way to go about it, but, a lot of the comments in
the OP about this imply a workplace that employees aren't able to bring their
concerns up to management. Of course, this was just a dress code, but that
works both for and against the reaction to it: it was just a dress code, how
will you treat me if I bring up a more serious issue?

~~~
mashlol
> it was just a dress code, how will you treat me if I bring up a more serious
> issue?

They did bring up the dress code issue to their managers, and it was
dismissed. Petitioning it is a level above that, and while I agree that firing
them is a bit much, it doesn't mean they can't take feedback necessarily. It
sounds like they would still be receptive if you bring up a more serious issue
in the proper way (i.e. talking to your manager).

~~~
cm3
Couldn't they have just ignored the request like politicians ignore many
things asked for by their constituents, or is firing the intern the easiest
way because an intern isn't a full-time employee anyway and it will mute the
discussion?

------
cloakandswagger
When you're an intern you're basically a guest.

Imagine showing up to a dinner party and trying to create a lobby of other
guests that don't want to take their shoes off in the house. The entitlement
of the interns is astounding.

~~~
computerlab
Actually you're basically an employee with a number of rights and
responsibilities.

~~~
cloakandswagger
Then I hope they learned a valuable lesson about political capital in the work
place.

I'm a full time employee who is well accomplished, and even I still realize
that there is a limit to how much influence I can exert over the business
before I get the boot.

~~~
addicted
And unless you're forming a union, ganging up with a bunch of peers and going
over your managers' heads (especially for something as trivial as a dress
code) is probably the worst way to approach such a situation.

Approaching HR, or discussing the situation with your manager's manager in a 1
on 1 situation is a much better approach.

~~~
pmiller2
> Approaching HR....

No! Never talk to HR unless there's a problem with your benefits or something.
They are _never_ on your side; they're basically there to protect the company
_from_ you. If you ever get into a situation you feel can't be resolved
without involving HR, just start looking for a new job.

------
MalcolmDiggs
I understand the manager's frustration. But, I think taking that kind of
action sets a dangerous precedent.

IMHO, no matter how hard criticism may be to hear, (especially when it is
entitled and baseless), you still want to encourage and reward employees and
interns any time they go out of their way to try and make the company better,
stronger, or a more enjoyable place to work. Not because you agree with what
they're proposing, but because you want to encourage the free flow of ideas,
and the voicing of concerns.

Moreover: When you take on interns, you take on the role of mentor and
teacher, for better or worse. I seriously doubt that firing them was the best
way to teach them anything.

~~~
syshum
I get overruled almost on a weekly basis, there are ALOT of things I wish my
company would do different, I make these suggestions, I explain my reasoning,
and if my boss accepts my reasons and approves the change happens, if not well
thats the breaks. He may have a perfectly valid reason why what I suggest will
not work for reasons unknown to me that is why he is management and I am not
(thank god)

I however never circulate a petition to my coworkers asking is they agree with
me, or my boss. I never circulate a petition to my coworkers and then present
it to my boss as if my work place was some kind of democracy in which is my
coworkers all agree then my bosses veto is somehow over ruled.

>>>I seriously doubt that firing them was the best way to teach them anything.

It should have taught them that when you are a new employee and something you
request is denied, that is the end of it. You do not circle the wagons and
attempt to force the issue.

It should have taught them that the work place is a heirachy with Interns at
the bottom,

It should have taught them that the real world is a cold ruthless place and
your feels are irrelevant.

------
adrusi
_What’s done is done. But it would be smart to write a letter to your manager
explaining that you’ve learned from the situation and that you appreciate the
opportunity they gave you and are sorry that you squandered it._

The manager's decision to fire the interns was entirely within their right and
the interns should have seen it as a possibility, even if it was a little
extreme. But even though it has essentially no bearing on what happened, the
interns were in the right. They saw unfairness in the office, confronted the
superior about it, and were ignored. Obviously management needs to protect the
privacy of the injured employee, but for the sake of dignity and good
communication, they could have at least said "that person has a special
circumstance which warrants an exception". Their reaction to being ignored
violated social conventions, but was a civil, meaningful expression of
dissatisfaction.

The quote above takes the wrong lesson from this story. It encourages
_apologizing_ for organizing the petition, but they absolutely shouldn't
apologize, because they _were_ in the right. Unless they want to try to still
get a good reference out of this employer (which would be characteristically
naive), they have no reason to pander. Instead, they should thank the manager
for giving them a reality check about how business operates, while holding
firm to their convictions. It would take care to not come across as passive-
aggressive, but full repentance would only serve to reinforce the manager's
authoritarian tendencies.

~~~
charlesism
Of course they were right. But it's possible to be right, and still be a pain
in the ass. Might make it easier, even.

------
djsumdog
This is being linked everywhere and it smells like total bullshit. First, I
thought unpaid internships were illegal in the US now. Wasn't there a court
ruling on that a few years back?

This seems like it's fiction to bait the millennial haters, "Get of my lawn"
crowd.

Something sounds very off about it. I call copy-pasta

~~~
vermontdevil
Unpaid interns are not illegal. It's illegal to use them for work that a paid
employee is expected to perform.

~~~
KZeillmann
Unfortunately, that's what most unpaid internships are like. I know many
people who were in internships that weren't just learning experiences.

------
TheAdamist
An awesome learning experience on where not to work. Internships can be a
trial period for both the employer and employee, before leading to a job
offer. A bullet dodged I would consider this.

------
whack
Wow, I don't know what is more shocking. The fact that the company fired an
entire class of interns, or that the advice columnist would side with the
managers and chide the interns further.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the interns' proposal...
regardless of whether the issue is important enough to start a petition for,
it is NEVER ok to fire someone for making a polite and respectful proposal. It
is NEVER ok to make someone feel as though they aren't important enough to put
forward suggestions.

Not only is it morally disgusting, it is organizationally dysfunctional. Teams
operate best when every member feels empowered to make suggestions and improve
upon the status quo. Teams operate best when those in power don't use their
power to intimidate and silence those with less power.

If there's one takeaway from all this, it is how dysfunctional the the
workplace is for most people, and how important it is to protect yourself by
planning ahead. Work your ass off and attend an elite university. Pick a
profession that's in-demand, so you'll have plenty of options. Otherwise,
you're going to be at the mercy of egomaniacs who have no qualms over firing
you at the drop of a hat.

~~~
thiht
A petition is actually quite agressive, it's the opposite of what I would call
"polite". A company is not a democracy.

------
striking
The response here is spot on and, although I wouldn't say that firing every
single one of the signatories of the petition was an optimal strategy, it's an
understandable one.

As an intern, you are lucky to have an opportunity to learn and to prove
yourself. Don't squander that opportunity on something as little as a dress
code.

At least one of you was wise enough not to sign it. I would bet that person's
still an intern there.

~~~
foota
Honestly I wouldn't describe it as quite such an indebted situation, interns
are employees who do work for the company. And generally at a cut rate.

Edit: full disclosure, I'm an intern

------
bobthechef
Comedy gold! Mind-boggling! I know employers can be idiotic, I know managers
can go on power trips, but this time the interns (not even full-time
employees) take the cake. Firing may seem harsh until you look at it from from
the manager's POV. You have a bunch of INTERNS coming in, banding up, and
trying to essentially coerce the manager into changing a company policy
involving dress norms. Not only is dress code not a big issue for a full-time
employee (frankly it simplifies getting dressed in the morning), but a couple
of interns that will be gone in a couple of months and thus have no shared
fate with the company and its employees think they can come in and stage a
campus rally to accommodate some petty inconvenience? What utter arrogance!
How self-absorbed! How socially challenged! What do you imagine the situation
would look like if the manager hadn't fired them after pulling a stunt like
that? The interns have already created an awkward situation. Instead of
focusing on important things entailed by the purpose of the internship, they
decided to start a confrontation over dress code at a company they have no
full-time employment at. Asking whether they can wear X for reason Y is
acceptable in my mind, but the petition was utterly ridiculous. They pretty
much forced the manager's hand by communicating to the manager that they
weren't serious about their internship and were going to waste the company's
time with frivolous crap. Manager 1, immature interns 0. Perhaps they will
eventually learn from this experience, though the stubborn, overconfident tone
of the article suggests that it may take some time for the wisdom to sink in.
They seem either unwilling to see their error or unable.

------
tdaltonc
I hope that they take that moxie and go build something great.

~~~
ratsimihah
I agree and feel like they did the interns a favor letting them go. These kids
belong somewhere better. :)

~~~
ryandrake
The beach? :-)

------
bpchaps
My last job had a relaxed dress policy that allowed people to wear jerseys
during football season. Not being a football fan, it felt really oddly unfair
in ways I'm not really sure how to describe.

I asked them if it was fine to wear a League of Legends jersey, since there
was a huge tournament going on in Germany at the same time. The head of HR
actually said yes. Wasn't expecting that...

~~~
serge2k
I abhor policies like this. if the dress code doesn't matter on Friday it just
doesn't matter period.

------
curiouscat321
I'm not surprised that the interns got fired. Not because of the topic at
hand, but because of the petition.

In many ways, an organized petition could be seen as the beginning of union
organization. Forget about opinions about unions for a moment. The fact is,
most companies do whatever they can to squash a union as early as possible.

------
huffmsa
Buy better fitting shoes and go see a sweet little Asian/Greek/Ukrainian
tailor and get better fitting clothes.

Problem solved. And you don't look like some startup schmuck.(I am one but I
still suit up often)

Edit: also, no job until halfway through college? Kids got bigger problems
than shoes.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Shoes are expensive. Even if you are working a low-paying job along with the
unpaid internship, it isn't something that most folks can get when they are
just starting out.

And even harder to find is a tailor, unless you are in a decent sized city. I
had access if actually needed - my mother. My mother did tailoring work off
and on to make ends meet, and more later on for herself, excluding bridal
shops. Often, there were between zero and one other person in the area doing
the work. Most were just to make pants shorter, and few were willing to pay a
fair wage for the bigger tailoring.

~~~
huffmsa
A well fitting pair of shoes can be had for ~$200, or <$120 if you catch a
sale.

Remember. These are going to be on your feet 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week,
50 weeks a year. How much is that worth to you?

------
jordigh
I can't quite tell, but is this about women asking to not wear high heels at
the job?

If so, the interns were totally in their right. A dress code that demands
wearing heels is just a health hazard.

------
dahdum
They were required to wear suits/blazers with appropriate footwear, and
_petitioned_ for no suits with running shoes and sandals...

Whole thing sounds fake to me, but incredibly naive if real.

------
dogma1138
I wonder if he or she wondered why that worker was exempt?

There are medical conditions that prevent people from wearing leather shoes my
partners sister is alergic to pretty much anything and if she wears leather
she gets blisters within minutes.

There are also people who will not wear leather due to religious and
ideological reasons.

It seems very childish to start a petition because one employee gets treated
differently, that's life your boss can also leave early and take a long lunch
maybe it's another petition....

~~~
DarkTree
>The worst part is that just before the meeting ended, one of the managers
told us that the worker who was allowed to disobey the dress code was a former
soldier who lost her leg and was therefore given permission to wear whatever
kind of shoes she could walk in. You can’t even tell, and if we had known
about this we would have factored it into our argument.

The answer to your question is right there in the article

------
mfav
There is clearly some unstated circumstances here.

One shot in the dark: what if the company was concerned for legal reasons?
Since the issue had a connection to a disabled employee, is it possible the
company could have fired them to avoid any legal conflicts?

------
greenyoda
Previous discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12001730](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12001730)

------
fffernan
Awesome let's get back some old school management. Interns need to be put in
their place. Give respect... get respect. No Respect... Out the door.

~~~
mashlol
I disagree. Having interned 6 times at 5 different companies, the best ones by
FAR are the ones where interns are treated exactly the same as full-time
employees. The reality is that interns are not that far off from the new-
grads, why would you treat them any differently? Interns should be treated
exactly like a new hire, with the exception of the fact that they are
temporary, so obviously you don't have to assign them to long term projects or
anything like that.

------
mattieuga
One of the commenters said it best:

"Oh and also – petitions really aren’t the way things are done. Your workplace
isn’t a democracy."

------
jayess
Almost feels like a non-US company. Or a law firm.

~~~
MWil
Why do you feel like that? This sounds like it could be any and every company
to me.

~~~
United857
Doesn't sound like my current employer (well known Silicon Valley tech firm)
We have internal groups for feedback and discussion, suggestions, and
constructive criticism on almost everything.

Of course, being civil and respectful still applies but it seems the OP was,
too.

~~~
gravypod
I wouldn't say the Valley is a good sample set for the United State's business
and management practices.

------
United857
I'm guessing this is Wall Street. "dress code" is more or less non-existent in
Silicon Valley.

~~~
jrnichols
In my experience with east coast companies, that's where the dress code
nonsense comes from.

I had a similar problem - ridiculous dress codes that made no sense at all. I
fought it the best that I could. I worked for a defense contractor as part of
another business unit, and the dress code policy was basically "match the site
that you work at." Except that they were trying to tell me that I had to
adhere to their dress code policy anyway. How dare an employee wear a nice
pair of shorts during a 110 degree Texas summer day! They tried to tell me the
dress code was a safety issue. I balked and pointed out that the Union
employees on the production line were wearing jean shorts and t-shirts, so
their argument was flat. A manager two levels above me said something about
the fact that she said that she was appalled that I would dare show up to work
in shorts. I informed her that I worked in the Silicon Valley before, where
dress codes like ours were almost non-existent. She said that she was appalled
that I would dare show up to work in shorts. This back and forth went on, and
they finally just admitted "This is always how we've done it" and there really
was no reason whatsoever for the existing dress code.

I signed up for the voluntary layoff package and didn't regret it at all. This
was in addition to a time where we had to go digging in the library for OSHA
lighting standards just to get upper management to tell one supervisor that
didn't work in our area to stop flipping on all of the lights when he walked
by.... but that's another story. Just about as stupid as most dress codes.

------
lazylizard
because wearing closed shoes makes you more productive than wearing slippers..

------
serge2k
Talk about dodging a bullet. Is a petition about dress codes whiny and lame,
sure. Firing everyone is just a sign of a place that is shitty to work for.

------
Overtonwindow
That headline defines the younger generation perfectly.

~~~
emmett
From the article:

A note about this post, which is being linked to from all over the internet:
This situation is not about “young people today.” The letter-writer’s
generation is far from the first to bridle at dress codes or misunderstand
office culture or start out with little knowledge of how things work in
offices. This is about being young and new to the work world, not about what
generation they belong to. Most of us made plenty of mistakes when we first
started work — I certainly did. So please go a little easier on this person.

~~~
MustardTiger
Saying "it isn't about this generation" doesn't change the fact that it does
sum up this generation very well. The level of entitlement is unreal, with
people demanding history classes in universities not teach parts of history
that they don't like. There has never before been such wide spread self-
importance in any other generation.

------
dudul
Edit - I missed it in the post. I had read a previous version of the letter
that didn't include this detail.

~~~
schneidmaster
> The worst part is that just before the meeting ended, one of the managers
> told us that the worker who was allowed to disobey the dress code was a
> former soldier who lost her leg and was therefore given permission to wear
> whatever kind of shoes she could walk in. You can’t even tell, and if we had
> known about this we would have factored it into our argument.

(from the OP article)

