
How We Recruit - On Formal Credentials vs Experience-based Education - markbao
http://blogs.zoho.com/general/how-we-recruit-on-formal-credentials-vs-experience-based-education/
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sridharvembu
Thanks for all the feedback. As a regular Hacker News reader, I am thrilled to
see my post here!

Hexstream made a great comment about the wasted potential of teen years. It
echoes what PG has said - boredom being the biggest problem in high school (or
even college for that matter). Kids are getting smarter every generation
(really true - IQ is going up world-wide), yet they don't feel challenged.
Tapping that wasted potential is a huge opportunity, leave aside the "doing
good" aspect of it.

~~~
markbao
Agreed. Maybe it's teen angst (age on profile), but the reason I'm trying to
do well in high school is to... get into a better college... and then what?
_shrug_

Something to think about is what the role of high school is - is it to try to
get a numerical GPA on how your work ethic is? (Absolutely not. If you love
your job, you'll enjoy working at it. Likewise for school. I love hacking, not
so much school.)

Or is it to let people find out what they're really interested in? (Only a few
people that I know have gone through this by senior year, wanting to apply
themselves to _x_ career.)

College, at least after the first or second year, is definitely targeted to
one's own career interest, and although it is much more in-depth than high
school, for certain careers it can't replicate the amount of learning you have
to actually do. In other words: take hacking or entrepreneurship. You'll need
experience in the field, and you can't really be taught it like you can be
taught biology or chemistry.

~~~
andreyf
_I'm trying to do well in high school is to... get into a better college...
and then what? shrug_

A "better" college will have more interesting people - ones that let you sleep
on Friday and Saturday nights because they aren't drunk and throwing up
outside of your window. It'll provide you with good professors, who aren't
insecure about teaching, and are happy to engage you in their research.

Having gone to a big state school/research university (Rutgers), I had the
experience of "both sides" of the coin - and there is an enormous difference
between how different student's attitude affected their education - it's
shocking that there is no "formal" difference between graduates, there
certainly is a difference between the people who were engaged in their
education, and those who were there to pass while trying their hardest to
impress people.

 _I love hacking, not so much school._

I think it was Chomsky or RMS who said something interesting about their high
school - that they did all the bullshit hoop jumping you have to go through to
get to a good university, and it was worth it.

Yes, in high school, you're jumping through nearly-bullshit hoops in an
imperfect system, but there is a practical argument to be made that it might
be worth it.

~~~
markbao
I'm just seeing it like this:

    
    
      High school ==> College ==> Networking with interesting people
    

Thanks for the insightful opinion and sharing your personal experience.

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ozanonay
It surprises me that so many firms still resort to arbitrary credential-based
requirements rather than looking at something such as, say, solutions to a
series of problems.

I guess it just means that the most creative HR departments are going to net
the most appropriate candidates.

~~~
nazgulnarsil
we've been brainwashed to reject the obvious and simple solution. merit-based
hiring. have them give examples of the kind of work you'd have them doing at
your company.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy>

colleges are a form of prestige monopoly.

------
Feynman
This is strikingly similar to what the military does with alot of jobs. (Or
atleast used to do.) Instead of hiring certain people out of college (Medical
Technologists, as an example) they would build an intense training program
that would train them for job they needed to do in 16 months or so. Kind-of
reminds of of the old ways of training electricians and various craftsman
through specialized schools and mentoring.

I love what Zoho is doing with this -- challenging conventional thought and
bringing great jobs to people who would ordinarily be over-looked or counted
out.

~~~
marvin
There's an interesting point here - the distinction between vocational
training on one hand and learning theoretical foundations + domain
specialization on the other. At least where I grow up consensus is that the
latter will make a person better suited for changing job requirements..but I
have never heard a good line of reasoning backing up this claim.

Perhaps what is needed to succeed in either case is the ability to adapt to
changing conditions, with people in the latter category by nature having an
easier time doing this. If this is the case, a lot of people could save a lot
of pain by simply jumping straight to the domain specialization.

------
andreyf
The point of a college or university isn't to train you for a profession,
that's what trade schools are for, and there's a reason most people don't go
to them. You can get a degree from a major university without learning a thing
- it's trivial to cram for tests, if not outright cheat (as many do), and pass
with flying colors. The point of university is to give you free time to grow
up however you want to.

For those genuinely interested in a subject the freedom of 4 years of doing
whatever you want is something more valuable than any on-job training. You can
read all day, go through GEB or SCIP in a week or two. Not cram it into nights
after work, but genuinely indulge in learning the ins and outs of a subject -
be it LISP/compilers or Edna Millay. Learning to edit Apache config files or
web API's and frameworks takes neither time nor brains. Learning everything
about the world around you uninhibited take both.

Ah, college, how I'll miss you...

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pchristensen
I've thought that because of the iterative nature of learning/doing, school
should alternate schedule weighting. For instance, once you've worked some,
theories make more sense, and when you understand theories, work becomes
easier.

I think school should alternate between 30 hours of practical work and 6 hours
(2 classes) one semester to 10-15 hours of practical work and 15 hours (5
classes) the next. If you control the work so that it covers the previous,
current, and next semesters, all the better.

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babul
Learning by doing is often the best way to learn and get up to speed.

I am very happy to hear the opportunities afforded to those of poorer
backgrounds in India by this scheme too.

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atai
It is really bad to recruit teens into IT industry. Let them enjoy their life
till 21 or 22.

~~~
markbao
Hell, my idea of enjoying life is hacking around and coding products. Not many
things are better than learning _useful_ stuff. check profile for age

~~~
andreyf
> Hell, my idea of enjoying life is hacking around and coding products. Not
> many things are better than learning useful stuff. check profile for age

At 16, I probably would have said the same thing, but only 5 years later, I'd
advise you that there's no rush. There is really a lot of time in life to be
great at _useful_ stuff and learn a great many things on the side. My idea of
enjoying life in college was falling in love, traveling, and taking poetry
classes. If I could do it again, I'd replace my CS classes with drama and a
foreign language (studying abroad), and spend free time learning CS on my own.
(I'd keep the Math major for the mental rigor)

There is nothing in a CS class you can't get out of a book/working on OSS
projects, but a lot more you can learn about life with a good acting,
literature, or history class than you'll have time to for most of your life
afterward.

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auston
That is a kick-ass recruitment method.

If I ever get a company I want to try that.

I'm sure (bright) highschool kids pick stuff up a lot faster/easier than beer-
drinking, weed-smoking college kids.

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kashif
Amen

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ideas101
most of the graduates from indian colleges and universities are not employable
- they need extra training anyway - so why not pick them up from high-school
and train them and give them employment so that they can come out of poverty
... also they will have experience by the time other peers come out of the
university with no experience and employability what so ever ... this
innovative model of recruitment should be replicated in all 3rd world
countries ... it solves multiple problems at one stroke.

~~~
babul
Even in the UK many employers complain about lack of graduate quality.

In fact today Imperial College in London announced it will be doing 4-year
degrees instead of 3-year ones to address issues in falling educational
standards.

~~~
paulsb
I also read that they were thinking about having entrance exams as well.

