
Zenefits will pay $3.4M in unpaid overtime to 743 employees - janober
https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/20/zenefits-will-pay-3-4-million-in-unpaid-overtime-to-743-employees
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hoodoof
It's probably not the message that a company selling payroll benefits is
wanting to send to the market.

"Oh sure you can trust us to calculate your employee benefits right, that our
business!"

~~~
tarr11
Asking employers if employees are exempt or not is the likely cause. A common
mistake employers make is assuming that if you are paid a salary, you are
exempt.

In truth, if your salary is below 47k in CA, you are not exempt and entitled
to overtime.

[https://www.calchamber.com/california-employment-
law/pages/e...](https://www.calchamber.com/california-employment-
law/pages/exempt-nonexempt-employees.aspx)

"Exempt employees in California generally must earn a minimum monthly salary
of no less than two times the state minimum wage for full time employment.
Paying an employee a salary does not make them exempt, nor does it change any
requirements for compliance with wage and hour laws."

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joatmon-snoo
If you write software in CA, the threshold is actually ~$88k[2] as of Jan 1,
2017 (the threshold is updated annually in accordance with a consumer price
index).

[1] See section 515.5,
[https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.x...](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=LAB&division=2.&title=&part=2.&chapter=1.&article=)

[2]
[https://www.dir.ca.gov/oprl/ComputerSoftware.pdf](https://www.dir.ca.gov/oprl/ComputerSoftware.pdf)

~~~
rjeli
Does this mean if one were to make less, overtime has to be paid, even if the
work is voluntary? Thinking of employees at early stage startups

~~~
joatmon-snoo
Yep. Caveats apply and consult a lawyer who knows the labor code, but yep.

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pasiaj
The shoemaker's children go barefoot.

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Aloha
This is a true adage - my grandfather was a mechanic (of sorts) his cars
always had an "oh, yeah, it just does that sometimes"

~~~
nojvek
Son of a plumber. Our bathrooms and toilets always had issues.

~~~
endominus
And how many programmers here have gotten used to the bugs in the software
they use every day?

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ryan-allen
Not just that, but how many regular users, too! "Oh, to make that work you
have to click here and then click out and you can then start typing..."

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tomohawk
If I work an hour, I should be paid for an hour. The whole salary thing
creates a situation where employers are incentivized to get workers to work as
many hours as possible because its free labor. If workers were paid for each
hour of work regardless, it would force employers to properly account for the
cost instead of shifting it to the employees.

~~~
brianwawok
On the flip side.. it can be a nice arrangements for both sides.

This week super super busy? Work 45 hours to help out.

Next week slow? Take off Friday at 1 pm and work a shorter week.

Such agreements can be good for both employeer and employee.

The only real "problem" is if there starts to be abuse by either side. If 50
or 60h is the expectation for every week, then you should know that signing
up. 60h week standard is "fair" from a salary POV, but make sure the salary is
more than the 40h a week job down the road.

~~~
Amezarak
There are very few companies, in my experience, that are OK with you charging
less than 40 hours, regardless of circumstances. If you want to leave early,
you burn your leave time.

They are all happy (and in some it is implicitly mandatory) for you to work
greater than 40 hours.

~~~
Consultant32452
My experience is that I just do something reasonable and I've never had any
problems. If it's just an hour or so early I'm leaving on Friday I don't even
bother to announce it. Sometimes I'll just state I had to deal with some issue
in the middle of the night so I'm taking off early tomorrow to catch up on
rest or whatever.

Oh, and unless I'm taking an entire day off I've never used any leave time for
something like a doctor's appointment at any employer. If I miss a few hours
of work one day I might make a special effort to make it up or might not,
depending on what's going on in the department and my perceived need of
whether or not it's valuable to the team/project. I'm sure soon enough I'll
get hit with some overtime for a big project or a late night support call
anyways.

FWIW I acknowledge that overtime is part of the deal on occasion working in
IT, but I'm not the type to grind away 50 hours every week forever. I might be
able to sustain that for a week or two in an emergency, but it's not worth it.
I talk about that part of the work culture during the interview process. I
would avoid grind shops.

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ksikka
Not bad, at least they're being proactive about fixing the dubious decisions
that were made at some point.

~~~
callalex
What part of only paying employees after being forced to by law enforcement is
"proactive"?

~~~
ksikka
Oh you're right. That's what I get for badly skimming the article. Thanks, I
take back my comment.

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s73ver
Why employers continue to insist upon stealing from their employees, I'll
never know.

~~~
hoodoof
I think it's more concerning that it's probably just incompetence. You can
fire thieves and criminals, incompetence and lack of attention to detail is
cultural.

~~~
walshemj
so which "cultures" do you think this applies to? BTW this is a realy racist
POV you have here.

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eropple
Any relationship to race with regards to "culture" you're reading in there
strikes me as inferred, not implied.

There is a pretty decent argument that American corporate _culture_ is very
happy to screw workers, defend people who screw workers, and commiserate with
those who get caught screwing workers.

~~~
walshemj
Perception is every thing ask a BME person about their interactions with the
police

~~~
eropple
You are conflating the larger definition of the term "culture" with a
specific, narrower one and it's not making the point you think it's making.

~~~
BrandonMarc
Eh, it's a Pavlovian instinct. See the word "culture" in any context, shout
"Racism!"

If it doesn't make sense, and people point this out, just double down and
shout the same thing but louder.

Yawn.

~~~
eropple
I agree with him in many contexts that there is a profoundly racist tilt to
American culture, and there is a profoundly racist tilt to "tech" culture as
well.

But that's not what was being referred to here, no.

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thelittlec
Does anyone have any insight into working at Zenefits at the current moment?
I'm about to interview with them for a data position.

~~~
ben174
Just left there after a year. I had a great time and built some very fun
stuff. Alcohol-free office is a bit of a bummer, but there's a nice little
joint downstairs you can buy an overpriced beer.

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tdb7893
Are most offices not alcohol-free?

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acchow
Alcohol is rampant in offices throughout the bay area. Especially in smaller
companies.

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jongledongle
But you spark up one marijuana cigarette on the patio and everyone loses their
minds.

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RickS
Anecdotally, that's not accurate. The bay area companies with an outsized
interest in drinking are typically pot friendly. Though with both, it's not
cool to be intoxicated during real work.

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nodesocket
Overtime? Huh? Since when do high tech jobs that pay over 100K keep track of
hours and have over time pay?

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SilasX
It's not the technical workers, though I am confused about why other
exemptions wouldn't apply. From the article:

>Insurance software startup Zenefits has agreed to pay $3.4 million in unpaid
overtime to 743 of its account executives and sales representatives

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hkmurakami
They were likely on some kind of hourly + contingency contract.

