
Is US Chief Information Officer Vivek Kundra a Phony? - chanux
http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2009/08/12/special-report-is-us-chief-information-officer-cio-vivek-kundra-a-phony/
======
PonyGumbo
If it's true, it's terrible - but I had to laugh when I saw this:

"I first suspected something was fishy about this fellow by listening to him
on CSPAN where he simply did not sound like someone who studied computers or
technology. His common referrals to Twitter and Google Docs as some sort of
high-tech breakthroughs and a way to save money and empower the public stemmed
from pure cornball pop culture and the blogosphere, not from computer science
or Information technology."

Ironically, this is exactly how I feel every time I read Dvorak.

~~~
lsb
Luckily, it's not true, as was debunked just a few hours later, and retracted
by Mr Dvorak himself!

------
marcusestes
Far too little credit is paid in that article to Mr. Kundra's unsurpassed work
to provide the citizens of D.C. with the best public data feeds of any city on
the country:

<http://data.octo.dc.gov/>

I believe he was hired to manage a similar initiative at the federal level. I
heard him speak at a gov 2.0 convention in Portland, OR, and I was deeply
impressed with both him and the program.

~~~
luigi
NextGov has called the University of Maryland and verified that he did receive
an M.S. in Information Systems Mgmt in 2001:

[http://techinsider.nextgov.com/2009/08/on_kundras_college_re...](http://techinsider.nextgov.com/2009/08/on_kundras_college_records.php)

Dvorak, on the other hand, appears to have used a website that cost $6.50 as
his source (see his screenshots).

~~~
look_lookatme
Dvorak called the University of Maryland, College Park and they said they had
no record of him receiving a degree at there, which is what everyone things of
when they read University of Maryland. NextGov confirmed he has an MS at UMUC,
which might have a shared history with UMD, but only UMD is allowed to be
known as the University of Maryland.

This is so obviously a non-story, or at least not worth more than a short,
transparency inspired blog post. Of all Dvoraks bonehead stories, this one
takes the cake.

Still, I'd like to see Kundra's bio updated to reflect the actual university
he received that degree from. I would never say I received an MS from the
University of Texas, when in fact I received one from some other UT system
school, and certainly wouldn't phrase it that way on my .gov bio page.

------
tokenadult
"This is the sort of question you might ask after trying to actually verify
his supposed MS in Information Technology from the University of Maryland,
College Park campus. The registrar has no record of it.

"I have already queried the White House concerning this and have heard nothing
back."

Wow. This looks like a total muff in checking the background of quite an
important (supposedly) government official. How many more errors of background
checking like that have happened?

~~~
jpwagner
Multiple appointments had tax evasion issues. This type of thing seems fairly
common, which is of course horrifying.

~~~
bilbo0s
OK.

Let's be clear how big this particular one is.

If you take any user on HN, and send an 2 or 3 IRS accountants pouring over
their tax records for 3 or 4 weeks, they will turn up something. So tax issues
I can see, if they were mistakes, and the person owns up to them and pays the
back due taxes. That is the kind of investigation you WANT your public
officials to undergo. And yes, given a byzantine tax regime, mistakes SHOULD
be common. In fact, the guy to look closer at is the one who has 30 years
worth of perfect tax paperwork.

This is a different thing altogether. It SEEMS . . . I'm not saying this is
the case . . . but it SEEMS that these guys were not even checked out. That,
in my view, should be actionable. Why were they put in their positions,
leadership ability? intelligence? because they are minorities? what?

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because the inconsistencies outlined
in the article are of the sort that lead reasonable men to question a
candidates integrity. I have no problem giving a guy a shot in my company if
he only has a high school diploma. Got a criminal record and you're trying to
get your life back on track? Hell, let's see if we can help each other. But I
will not countenance a liar, no matter how well qualified.

Consider that if they are liars, then these two are supremely unqualified. My
decision becomes easy . . . IF they are liars. Which I am not prepared to say
they are on the basis of this article alone.

As an aside, I would like to address the whole issue brought up in the
article's comments of academic credential exaggeration being a 'cultural'
issue in India.

That's fine, but this is the United States. As a younger man I attended lots
of government sponsored "leadership" courses in the armpit of the East Coast,
a place called Quantico. The first time I ever went to Quantico was for
Platoon Leader's Class for the United States Marine Corps. I learned the first
day about what was expected of me as a leader in the United States. ANY
integrity violation, (lie, cheat, or steal), and you would be gone. But
nothing else could get you thrown out! Yep, that drunken brawl with those Navy
Academy pricks at the bar in DC, not a problem. Just don't lie about it. Was
that you at that strip club during last weekend's leave? Yes Sgt. Instructor,
but did you see the girl? Just don't lie. Point of the story, they didn't make
exception for the Japanese guys, or the black guys, or the latinos because of
any "cultural issues" those guys may have had. Enough said on that I think.

~~~
anamax
> If you take any user on HN, and send an 2 or 3 IRS accountants pouring over
> their tax records for 3 or 4 weeks, they will turn up something. So tax
> issues I can see, if they were mistakes, and the person owns up to them and
> pays the back due taxes.

While true, that's not the sort of mistakes that Obama's people have made.

The treasury secretary signed a form every year that he worked for the IMF
acknowledging that he was being given extra pay for certain taxes. He cashed
the check as well. He then didn't bother to pay the taxes.

This is the sort of thing that "little people" go to jail over. It's a firing
offense in the IRS, one of the Treasury agencies.

And, this didn't come out after he was nominated. It came out during the
"vet". (When he was told that it was an issue, he paid, but penalties were
waived. Think that you'd get that sort of treatment.)

Does anyone think that the current treasury secretary is the only person who
could do that job as well? I'm pretty sure that there's someone who is tax-
clean who could do at least as well.

~~~
tptacek
"Little people" do not go to jail over not paying taxes. In rare cases,
"little people" get audited and pay back taxes, interest, and (sometimes)
penalties. To go to jail over taxes, you have to use illegal means to conceal
your liability. Geithner didn't do that.

------
edw519
I have mixed feelings upon reading this.

On one hand I want to say Thank you, John, for the kind of muchraking we need
now more than ever. I sure hope this goes somewhere.

On the other hand, I have no problem busting my butt for thousands in hopes of
millions. Until I realize how dishonest posers steal the key to billions
without doing any work at all.

Knowing that this sort of thing goes on all the time doesn't diminish the
anger that comes from reading about it.

~~~
luigi
Why do you trust Dvorak on this? He said that cable modems would never happen:

[http://web.archive.org/web/19970415081814/http://www.pcmag.c...](http://web.archive.org/web/19970415081814/http://www.pcmag.com/issues/1415/pcm00059.htm)

He doesn't understand what the System Idle Process is:

<http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000873.html>

Why do you believe Dvorak but not the guy who was vetted by a presidential
administration?

~~~
jdminhbg
I'm not really sure what the System Idle Process has to do with made-up
degrees and companies.

~~~
eli
Well if you're going to complain that a guy "[does] not sound like someone who
studied computers or technology" it would be more convincing if there weren't
several well-known instances of you demonstrating a lack of knowledge of
computers and technology.

~~~
plinkplonk
"Well if you're going to complain that a guy "[does] not sound like someone
who studied computers or technology" it would be more convincing if there
weren't several well-known instances of you demonstrating a lack of knowledge
of computers and technology."

but that is not the real "complaint". Dvorak just says that led him to dig
deeper. The accusation (or "complaint"if you will) is that Kundra fudged his
credentials. It doesn't matter how technical Dvorak is for the truth or
falsity of _that_ statement. Attack the accusation (which is very specific and
can be easily disproved) not the accuser.

------
harry
I personally work at the University Registrar in a data analysis and records
protection postion. Due to the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act
(FERPA - <http://www.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html>) we do not
disclose ADHOC queries about "does so and so have a degree from you" without
consent from the party or a formal & legaleze "Open Records Request."
<http://www.provost.ku.edu/policy/updates/open_records_act/>

There is a considerable amount of effort and time involved in securing an Open
Records Request here in Lawrence. The lawyers prevent people from just calling
up and say 'hey what is Ex Gov. Sebeilius minor in?'

Anyway...

------
qeorge
If this is true (I don't think it is), he apparently duped the University Of
Maryland itself:

 _"Kundra holds an undergraduate degree from UM in psychology and a master's
of science in information technology."_

<http://www.newsdesk.umd.edu/facts/mm/08-09/mar.cfm>

Took all of 1 minute to find that on Bing:

[http://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Aumd.edu+%22vivek+kundra%...](http://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Aumd.edu+%22vivek+kundra%22&go=&form=QBRE&qs=n)

Can we move on please?

~~~
zhyder
Your link has "Kundra holds an undergraduate degree from UM in psychology and
a master's of science in information technology."

Which actually doesn't indicate that the MS in IT was from UM, and hence
doesn't clash with Dvorak's post.

Edit: Interesting that the Wikipedia page,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivek_Kundra> , has already been updated with
"claims to hold... but no record" using Dvorak's post as the citation. Should
have waited a few days to see how this gets resolved or at least backed up by
more journalists.

------
qeorge
The potentially bogus credentials are disturbing, but I'm not ready to jump on
this ship yet. IMHO, this article is poorly written, and reveals how little
the author knows about the subject matter. For instance:

 _"What websites costs $18 million? And that's with no warrantee.

The incredibly popular Digg.com, one of the most advanced news gathering sites
in the world was initially coded from scratch for between $1200-2500 according
to one of its founders."_

This is a ridiculous comparison. We've already discussed this on Hacker News
ad nauseam.

Let's wait for more information before jumping to any conclusions.

~~~
batasrki
I agree. Digg may have started with a small amount of money, but they keep
raising VC funds, in the millions, to keep it running.

This is Dvorak at his best, link-baiting, self.

------
raheemm
These are really troubling assertions. However, I went over and took a look at
data.gov, which is the first project under the fed CTO's office and it is
really impressive. I am troubled and impressed. Regardless, Vivek Kundra
should address the points brought up in this blog.

------
kakal
I agree with an prior poster. Kundra's credentials, even if not phony, are
terribly underwhelming. Why on earth did the Obama administration not choose
from among the tens of people in the US who are much more recognized and
accomplished ?

~~~
eli
I'm personally pretty indifferent to him, but I know Kundra is well respected
here in DC. He did visibly good work with the DC government websites.

Check out the list of available data feeds: <http://data.octo.dc.gov/> Most
cities and states still keep this sort of public data in a filing cabinet in
the basement.

I find it surprising that so many _Hacker News_ readers are focusing on his
(lack) of academic degrees rather than his real-world experience.

~~~
ATB
"I find it surprising that so many Hacker News readers are focusing on his
(lack) of academic degrees"

The focus of the linked article is not his (lack) of academic degrees, but
rather a pattern of lying about his degrees and achievements, later redacted.
The article also tries to track his real-world experience, which appears
similarly underwhelming based on the data dug up by the author.

~~~
eli
You're right. I guess it just seems funny to me that a bunch of hackers and
entrepreneurs are so focused on somebody's CV instead of whether or not they
can do the job.

And as I mentioned below, it's amusing that John C. Dvorak is the one
criticizing someone else's grasp of serious Computer Science concepts versus
pop Web fads.

------
brown9-2
Is it really possible for a regular citizen to check with a university to find
out what degree(s) someone has been awarded, or even their attendence record?

Is this something a registrar will divulge to just anyone? Or do the
screenshots of the University of Maryland's registration application imply
that someone on the inside checked into this for Dvorak?

~~~
patio11
The National Student Clearinghouse collects this information and makes it
available to anyone with a credit card about about $5 ~ $8 to spend.

[http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/secure_area/DegreeVerify...](http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/secure_area/DegreeVerify/dv_ParticipatingSchools.asp)

~~~
eli
But something tells me that if their search doesn't turn up a degree, that
isn't _proof_ that you didn't get one.

------
mojonixon
There are multiple Univ. of Maryland campuses, so it is quite possible he
really does have an MIS. Even still his resume is a bit light.

But he's a political appointee. None of them are appointed for their
expertise. The head of the EPA was the chief of staff for the New Jersey
governor. Appointments are made for political reasons, and not much else. The
mark of a good appointment is someone who doesn't get in the way of their
career staff.

------
tptacek
A CS degree isn't a requirement for most F-500 CIO positions. The CIO of a
real company doesn't make low-level technology decisions. A business
background is more important for most CIO roles than a computing background.

If Kundra lied about his resume, he should resign or be terminated; no
question. However, Dvorak's column makes me think he doesn't know what a CIO
is.

------
eli
I find it funny that John C Dvorak -- who once famously decried the "System
Idle Process" eating up all his CPU time -- is challenging someone else's
knowledge of CS and IS.

------
luigi
How is everyone just accepting that Dvorak is right?

This is the same guy who said "[t]here is no likelihood that Apple can be
successful in a business this competitive", referring to the mobile phone
industry:

[http://www.marketwatch.com/story/apple-should-pull-the-
plug-...](http://www.marketwatch.com/story/apple-should-pull-the-plug-on-the-
iphone)

The same guy who thought that the Windows System Idle Process being at 95% was
a bad thing:

<http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000873.html>

And predicted that spam will kill wikis:

<http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,1835857,00.asp>

------
anigbrowl
What surprises me is that when the Obama administration came in it was widely
noted for performin background checks which were unprecedentedly strict - 60
page questionnaires and so forth. One wonders whether this level of scrutiny
was so time consuming that it was quietly dropped later.

It does strike me that since Creostar was involved in cybersecurity and
information warfare, its activities might be less public than you would expect
- if its primary customers were government intelligence agencies, for example.
However, I think it's up to Kundra to clarify that.

It'll be interesting to see how this one turns out.

------
dschobel
With the amount of legit tech people in Obama's orbit this is seriously
disappointing. Even if his credentials are authentic (TBD!), they're really
underwhelming.

------
Seiwynd
Link to HN item where his degree is verified -
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758840>

------
DanielBMarkham
I don't know the particulars of this case, but I can share some things I
learned as a freelance writer 20 years ago.

It doesn't matter what you know or how good you are: government appointments
are done on a "good old boy/girl" basis according to who knows whom. That
means that knowing and impressing the right people is much more important than
cost savings, innovation, or any of the other things we associate with being
somebody in power.

There's nothing new or unique about this -- it's been going on since the first
time anybody was appointed by anybody else. It IS good, however, to see the
tech community working to vet those who claim to have the knowledge to make
tech community decisions.

I always told people if I had any sense I would have went into politics in my
early 20s. With an affable personality and a sharp mind, you can make a lot
more bucks than actually having to struggle through forming a startup, and
it's a lot more interesting than suffering through a corporate career.

------
w1ntermute
Turns out Dvorak just made it all up:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758840>

------
gehant
Isolated ignorance is bad enough. Vocal ignorance (or laziness) is dangerous &
irresponsible.

I guarantee a significant percentage of the US population will take this
headline as fact, despite all efforts to refute it in the future.

------
socratees
Vivek Kundra should definitively address these allegations.

------
krying_krab
Now I'm no expert on this but, wouldn't it be a security risk if any old
citizen could inquire about the credentials of another person? Recent
homegrown terrorists come to mind.

That said, he could just be a phony who invented degrees. The White House
really should say something about this.

------
lyime
I am pretty sure that the White House guys did due diligence before hiring
this guy.

------
krschultz
Flagged as inaccurate, the article has been factually proven wrong, get it off
HN

[http://gigaom.com/2009/08/12/dvorak-raises-doubts-about-
us-c...](http://gigaom.com/2009/08/12/dvorak-raises-doubts-about-us-cio-vivek-
kundra/)

------
vaksel
Something like this is extremely common. After you get that first job, noone
will ever check your credentials.

The thing is, noone really remembers college. Well at least I don't. I'm
trying to think now, but I can't really remember a single teacher, or a single
building off the top of my head. And I only graduated 2 years ago.

So you can't really quiz someone on their status, even if you wanted to.

And think about this for a moment, pretty much every person who's been exposed
like this, was exposed at the national level.

------
balding_n_tired
Disturbing, but hardly unheard of. Anyone remember the Notre Dame football
coach who suddenly resigned when somebody looked closer at this resume? There
have been academic administrators in the last couple of years with degrees
that didn't really stand up under scrutiny, haven't there?

------
chrischen
You don't need a degree to be a tech wiz...

------
tptacek
No.

------
bitwize
_Where was the mainstream media? Where was the right wing media?_

Those two are different?

~~~
pyre
I think you'll find that a lot of right-wingers call it the 'liberal media'
and that a lot of left-wingers call it the 'conservative media' that is 'in
bed with the White House.' Which is true? I wonder.

