
Sonos requires access to your location to install a Sonos system - he0001
https://faq.sonos.com/permissions
======
throwaway227222
The Logitech Media Server (Slimserver) is still being developed [1] and
coupled with Chromecast Audios (through squeeze2cast [2]) or Picoreplayer [3]
works as a great multi-room system for me. Spotify integration is available
through a third-party plug-in, Spotty [4]. Someone is even developing a great
Material design skin for the web interface that is mobile compatible (and
works great in a Hermit web app) [5]. Control apps exist for Android and iOS
(iPeng [6]).

[1]
[https://github.com/Logitech/slimserver](https://github.com/Logitech/slimserver)
[2]
[https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104614-Announc...](https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104614-Announce-
CastBridge-integrate-Chromecast-players-with-LMS-\(squeeze2cast\)) [3]
[https://www.picoreplayer.org/](https://www.picoreplayer.org/) [4]
[https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?111217-Announc...](https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?111217-Announce-
Spotty-3-x-Spotify-Podcasts-on-your-Squeezebox) [5]
[https://github.com/CDrummond/lms-material](https://github.com/CDrummond/lms-
material) [6] [http://penguinlovesmusic.de/](http://penguinlovesmusic.de/)

~~~
hartzell
I can enthusiastically support LMS, piCorePlayer, and iPeng.

I have players scattered around the house:

\- touchscreen players with great graphical displays built with Raspberry Pi
3B's, IQAudio Pi-DAC+, and the official Pi 7" touchscreen. Nice bamboo stands
too, but they're hard to find these days. \- a headless player in an awkward
location built with a pi-zero-w and the IQAudio Pi-DACZero \- a playerless
head with a Pi 3B and a 7" touch screen (the UI's divorced from the player,
this one manages the PiZero from a less awkward location).

Everything supported out of the box by piCorePlayer.

All are plugged into various speakers w/ integrated amps (I'm an AudioEngine
fan).

They play in sync throughout the house, or can be independent.

I run the LMS server from a FreeNAS jail, LMS is in the FreeBSD ports tree
and/but I have a newer version in my ports overlay:
[https://github.com/hartzell/freebsd-
ports/tree/master/audio/...](https://github.com/hartzell/freebsd-
ports/tree/master/audio/logitechmediaserver).

Things occasionally hiccup, e.g. the spotify client dies periodically
([https://github.com/michaelherger/spotty/issues/18](https://github.com/michaelherger/spotty/issues/18)).

Happy to help anyone who's interested in getting things setup.

------
doe88
In the minority but still can not convince myself to buy a device with
(mandatory) cloud storage, facial / voice recognition, voice assistant, etc.
Moreover and to my surprise without even forcing myself, low pressure point so
far. The closest I got was to buy a _smart_ scale for body composition but as
I didn't want to investigate which of them could provide me all the features I
wanted _offline_ I realized it wasn't a device I really needed after all.
Dodged another bullet I guess :).

------
jeremija
About 6 years ago I bought a Sonos Connect as a gift for my father. This was
the first and only smart home device I had bought at the time and I wasn't
really thinking about the privacy implications at the time. Years have passed
and he was not using so he gave it back to me. I was surprised by the
permissions required to setup a device, and appalled by the lack of support
for streaming from a Linux system. They could've made it so simple by have the
server run a web app. They also made it so hard to play local music. Luckily
there's BubbleUPNP so that works, otherwise it's totally not worth it if you
have a local music library and do not want to pay for Deezer or Spotify;
Chromecast Audio works just as well and it's 10x cheaper - the only thing
missing is Gapless playback via DLNA. However, Chromecasts also require
location during setup. I wish there was a non-Google privacy-friendly
alternative for Chromecast.

~~~
ct0
There is an alternative. The raspberry pi! check it out:
[http://rpimusicplayer.com/](http://rpimusicplayer.com/)

~~~
stevenjohns
Does it have Spotify, Soundcloud etc integration?

~~~
jeremija
You can try to set it up using a fork of mpd. I've tried it a few years ago
but it didn't work that well.

------
stanski
I was recently given a webcam by a friend to use while I was away on vacation.
The app wouldn't let me set it up until it had correctly identified my
physical location. On top of that there was some glitch that prevented the app
from doing it and it kept defeating itself.

Backed right out of that one. It's incredible how people would just agree to
anything an app asks them to do. If most people didn't proceed past this
point, the manufacturer wouldn't be getting away with collecting that data.

How is someone's physical location data required to setup a webcam? So anyway.
Same crap.

~~~
NoPicklez
It’s not necessarily the same crap, I agree with the webcam but when using
devices that operate over radio frequencies you do need to know where they
live (loosely) in order to correctly configure the device to their locale.

~~~
panpanna
This was a really really bad excuse.

There are many better ways to do this, for example why not ask users which
country they are on? Or, I don't know, maybe let the app figure it out based
on the phones configuration?

------
maweki
As an open source alternative, one could use snapcast
([https://github.com/badaix/snapcast](https://github.com/badaix/snapcast))
which works quite nicely and can be integrated in multiple ways.

------
zmzrr
I was automatically redirected to the version in Spanish[] that says that
location access is optional. But if I go to the English version[], it says it
is mandatory. I wonder if 1) the Spanish version of the documentation is not
up to date or 2) they don't do this in the European market.

[]
[https://support.sonos.com/s/article/3092?language=es](https://support.sonos.com/s/article/3092?language=es)

[]
[https://support.sonos.com/s/article/3092?language=en](https://support.sonos.com/s/article/3092?language=en)

~~~
inanutshellus
Seems that, while it may be optional (e.g. for Android devices), you simply
will not be able to set up your speakers if you disable it:

"This allows Sonos to detect your nearby speakers during the Setup process. If
you leave this disabled, you will not be able to setup your speakers."

The iOS explanation that it's only used to auto-fill a zipcode is insane and
presumably inaccurate, given the Android permission's description.

~~~
tinus_hn
IOS apps are not allowed to require location access, they must perform some
kind of function if they do not have it. Enforcement is pretty random of
course, either they were hit or they purposely avoided breaking the rules.

~~~
kirb
It seems like the rules aren’t so strict when it’s regarding Wi-Fi/Bluetooth
device discovery, since you definitely could derive a location from nearby Wi-
Fi access points and Bluetooth devices (that’s why this permission behavior
changed in iOS 13/Android 10), but the alternative to device discovery is… for
a lot of devices, probably nothing.

Putting the blame for this on Apple/Google doesn’t excuse Sonos’s sleazy data
collection here, of course.

------
bambax
Slightly OT, but Sonos is a nightmare. The software keeps getting worse and
worse and has mandatory updates constantly (every 2 weeks or so?) When the
system wants to update you can't do anything, not play music, not anything.

"Updates" deprecate hardware that used to work fine, and... adds advertising
for new hardware!!

~~~
HelloNurse
Audio equipment that can display advertising? I think I'll pass.

~~~
GeertJohan
I think they meant an ad in the Sonos app. After an update of the app, it
displayed an ad and discount code for a new Sonos product. I have had Sonos
since 2017 and have had this ad only once. Sonos does not introduce ads in
playback of music. Music services like Spotify or Soundcloud may play ads if
you have a free account with them, just like your average radio station.

------
calmworm
I am shopping for speakers. I was heavily leaning towards Sonos. Not anymore.

~~~
Avamander
Every Bluetooth speaker system management app has to ask for the location
permission on Android. Bluetooth scans and location permission are tied
together.

~~~
acd10j
Why every Bluetooth speaker system needs separate Management app ?

~~~
Avamander
Because it pretty much isn't possible to not to if you want any features on
your speaker.

~~~
criddell
Features like what? I have four different Bluetooth speakers and none of them
have an app. You just pair them to a phone and play.

~~~
Avamander
Equalizer configuration, auto-off time, indicator light control, firmware
updates, the amount of configuration options across many different Bluetooth
devices, seemingly simple or not is not necessarily small. I've got personal
experience reverse-engineering a few OEM apps out there.

~~~
criddell
None of that is stuff I would ever mess with anyway so I gues that's why I
never noticed it missing. It seems like an app might be nice to have if you
like configuring things, but it shouldn't be required.

------
Already__Taken
Isn't this because that permission is tied to looking for bluetooth beacons or
nfc? So if you appear on that to find your speakers anything else might find
you too and track you.

This isn't sonos' fault.

~~~
Angostura
> Gathering the approximate location of your Sonos system allows us to auto-
> populate your registration postal code and predetermine the radio locale for
> your system so it is configured as soon as you are done setting up your
> system.

~~~
rpastuszak
So, "saving you two clicks"?

~~~
rtkwe
They only quoted half the section ignoring the actual important bit the
location access allows them to do:

> Location access is required to detect your nearby speakers during setup and
> your mobile device’s WiFi network information.

~~~
secabeen
Yep, there exist databases of the geolocation of nearly every Wifi AP in the
world. If you have the MAC address of nearby APs, you can lookup where you are
trivially.

[https://www.skyhook.com/](https://www.skyhook.com/)

------
panpanna
As horrible as this is, note that this one is _mostly_ on Google.

In particular, they force this on Android in order to map MAC address from any
Bluetooth devices to physical locations. This allows then to track people even
when they turn off GPS.

(If you work for Samsung etc and are wondering why I don't buy your wireless
headphones, this is the reason. Feel free to show this to your boss)

------
S_A_P
I think hardware companies realize more and more that hardware doesnt create
recurring revenue. The best way to extract revenue from customers? add
software! Peloton bikes? check- you can have a local only profile, but if you
want to really work out you gotta subscribe! Sonos? check- we cant have this
perfectly good soundbar functioning into perpetuity, software to the rescue!

~~~
NoPicklez
You are very cynical but this was actually Sonos’s original marketing pitch.
Since day one, they haven’t been secret about it.

The idea is that they release one set of GOOD speakers and improve it through
software, which they have. In fact my speakers sound better than when I first
bought them due to the new functionality they’ve added.

~~~
S_A_P
Cynical where appropriate. Not everyone deprecates hardware with software...

~~~
NoPicklez
Right, but if that's their business model and you don't agree with it, then
perhaps don't buy their products.

Depreciate is also a matter of opinion, my speakers work better than they did
when I first purchased them. So for me they haven't been depreciated with
software.

~~~
S_A_P
I do vote with the wallet where I can for sure. If you were able to build or
do something to enhance you speakers you are in the minority of users of
consumer hardware. If Sonos/brand x has done that, GREAT! but what happens
when they get tired of doing that and add some arbitrary line in the sand
where the latest version of the app will not support your speakers. The best
case scenario here is that you have a device that can be frozen in time to
support the devices of that period. The worst case is you have to recycle or
likely landfill that device. Sorry that is an awful scenario any way you slice
it.

------
thalassos
This is why I have started to develop a fascination with vintage sound gear:
no gimmicks, just sound from speakers.

~~~
tartoran
To add to that, old speakers have very good dynamic range. New ones have
crappy mids and strong bass so you get loudness but overall sound is skinny

~~~
criddell
New studio monitors are usually pretty neutral.

~~~
tartoran
Studio monitors are a different game (and are pricier for a reason). I was
talking about consumer speakers.

~~~
criddell
Places like Monoprice have some good choices for under $200 / pair. Maybe they
are more expensive, but I think they aren't unreasonable.

------
neallindsay
I was confused by the title, since I set up a Sonos (Ikea) speaker recently
and denied its location services request. Reading the article, it looks like
the location access is required if you're on Android.

~~~
Vespasian
It says you can enter "your" zip manually

------
BrandiATMuhkuh
Freudian slip or what? In the German version it says: Via unfairly collecting
you location... (Durch das Erfassen der unfähren Position)

Unfähre = unfairly Ungefähr = approximately

------
louwrentius
The Sonos-based cheap IKEA speakers require an internet connection and a Sonos
account in the first place or you can't use them.

They were cheap and allowed me to setup multi-room audio for listening to
audio books / podcasts, but I hate gear that require internet access to
setup/work.

------
Angostura
Sonos has history on this kind of thing:
[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/04/10/sonos_privacy_compl...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/04/10/sonos_privacy_complaint_ico/)

------
NoPicklez
I don't see what the problem is? Sonos have clearly stated why they require
that access.

It's the same argument that Apple had recently where users were unable to
fully switch off location settings on their device through switching
applications off manually. It was because they needed to check where the
individual was globally to ensure the Ultra Wideband technology was not being
used in countries where it was illegal to do so.

They say on the article you have posted that it is only required for setup,
which makes sense. After which time you can then switch it off.

Posting an article where an app asks for location permissions is completely
useless unless you provide an argument for why they shouldn't do so given
their reasoning for requiring it.

~~~
mikekchar
Surely the solution is to turn off Ultra Wideband technology until you provide
your location: not to force you to divulge your location and then "switch it
off" after you've done so...

The original article seems not to link to the actual wording of their
reasoning (and I couldn't find it with a quick browse), but I'm guessing they
require a location to ensure that they are licensed to give you the specific
content in your area. My opinion: have it fail if they need a location to
serve the content and don't have the location. Personally, I think it's pretty
stupid anyway since it's hardly impossible to spoof the location on these
devices. At some level, you are required to trust the consumer that they are
telling the truth. Given that, why not just ask the costumer what country they
are in and cut off the service for customers who are obviously lying? Put in
your terms of service that you can use it through TOR or other anonymising
services that will obfuscate the route of the packets being sent.

I mean, I can think of half a dozen other potential solutions to the problem.
They picked _one_ and don't want to think of any other solution. I think it is
fair for consumers to judge them on their lack of flexibility on this issue.

~~~
NoPicklez
The idea with Ultra Wide Band is that it is meant to be always on, much like
WiFi or Bluetooth if you choose to have it on listening all the time. So if
the user wants to have Ultra Wide Band on all the time are you saying that
they should ask the user to provide their location, then just assume that they
will never leave their country? How do you detect if they have left the
country to a location where Ultra Wide Band is restricted? The wording is
right there in the article in the title. "Gathering the approximate location
of your Sonos system allows us to auto-populate your registration postal code
and predetermine the radio locale for your system so it is configured as soon
as you are done setting up your system."

You're right, you could do that however in the context of user experience you
might choose to remove that from the application such that the user is able to
register their devices faster. And if you really only need and use that
information during the setup as they said, then what's the problem?

With regards to spoofing, if it is correct that they need the locale in order
to know whether they can serve that location. And they implement a location
check to satisfy that, then if the end user spoofs the location, surely Sonos
don't care because they've done their due diligence. If you choose to spoof
the location that's a different story, Sonos if they could would provide the
service to everyone its the licensing companies that tell where they can.

My opinion, if you are required to obtain the location of the user as part of
the setup process due to determining the radio locale. And you do so only
during the setup process as you have stipulated on your website, then I don't
think its that big of a deal. Either way I'd have to provide my location using
a drop down menu and for the end user its just one part of the overall setup
process that is done for you.

~~~
mikekchar
Just to be clear, there is a huge difference between saying I'm in Japan
(which I am happy to shout out to anybody) and saying exactly where I am to a
precision of a few meters. What I'm saying is that they need to provide tools
that allows the user to specify the former (which I'm pretty sure they can
determine without even asking their user's device) without specifying the
latter. The reason they want the latter is because they can easily get it and
once they have it, it is valuable for other reasons.

For Ultra Wide Band it's even easier because the actual phone manufacturer has
control over the dang thing. Got an active SIM connection in an allowed
country? Good to go. Even building your GPS system such that it can determine
if it is in a UWB allowed country without divulding _where_ it is would be
absolutely trivial. I really can go on and on with potential solutions that do
not divulge a user's positions. They just don't care about the user's privacy.
That's the entire point.

------
nwallin
My parents bought me a smart meat thermometer that connects to a cell phone
app that does stuff. It requires location, file system, phone, contact, email,
and sms privileges to pair with the thermometer.

Nah.

------
exceptione
It might frighten some, but I think this is legal. I for instance sell a
product, but to unlock its feature set you first need to upload a picture of
your family back to my company via the app.

~~~
ajsnigrutin
> I for instance sell a product, but to unlock its feature set you first need
> to upload a picture of your family back to my company via the app.

That would really make me refund your product.

~~~
exceptione
That's entirely possible. Keep in mind you only qualify for a refund by
filling out our refund form and attaching a personal nude pic.

------
Tempest1981
Doesn't an IP-Geo lookup give them a good enough guess? Enough to know your
zip and local radio stations?

~~~
rtkwe
> Location access is required to detect your nearby speakers during setup and
> your mobile device’s WiFi network information.

They scan the area for Sonos speakers to setup. That BT scan and Wifi info
requires location permissions in Android because it can be used as a pretty
accurate location sensor.

------
jwildeboer
Seems it can be disabled on iOS but not on Android. At least according to the
German version of their terms.

~~~
1023bytes
"To access the hardware identifiers of nearby external devices via Bluetooth
and Wi-Fi scans, your app must now have the ACCESS_FINE_LOCATION or
ACCESS_COARSE_LOCATION permission"

[https://developer.android.com/about/versions/marshmallow/and...](https://developer.android.com/about/versions/marshmallow/android-6.0-changes.html#behavior-
hardware-id)

~~~
secabeen
Yep, there exist databases of the geolocation of nearly every Wifi AP in the
world. If you have the MAC address of nearby APs, you can lookup where you are
trivially.

[https://www.skyhook.com/](https://www.skyhook.com/)

------
alexandrerond
Same as the new Bose 700 requiring app installation, account registration,
cloud activation..

------
stilisstuk
Grammofon is an alternative I believe

------
teknologist
Well, does it actually matter? Even if they're tracking you, are you that
important for it to be a problem?

~~~
Angostura
If you reply to this comment with your name full and postal address, I'll
consider your question a serious one.

And before you say "but one is private and the other is public", you have no
guarantees as to how Sonos will use the data or how securely they will keep
it.

~~~
teknologist
It's probably collected en masse for analytics or something and is not really
comparable to publishing personal information on Hacker News.

