

You're Not a Programmer, We Won’t Pay You That Much - eb
http://www.maratz.com/blog/archives/2008/01/22/you-are-not-programmer/

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mechanical_fish
I wouldn't read too much into this. When a client tells you that you cost too
much, it's not a statement of fact. It may not even be something they really
believe. They may just be probing you to see if you will lower your rate.

On the (published) advice of Tim Ferriss, I read Roger Dawson's _Secrets of
Power Negotiating_. It's a highly enlightening view into the mind of a
relentless game-player. One of Dawson's first recommendations is: When you are
negotiating with someone and they name a price, always flinch. If you're
physically present, you should literally flinch, at least slightly. If you're
on the phone, you execute a verbal flinch. If you're in email... you could try
saying something like "My god, that's a _programmer_ rate. I thought I was
hiring at _designer_ rates." (If the price you're objecting to _is_ a
ridiculously reasonable rate for a designer, you could always say "Oh, gosh.
The high school sophomore charged a lot less.")

And then you stop, and wait. In the best-case scenario, your opponent will
immediately say "oh, I didn't realize you were used to paying so much less;
I'll lower my rate". In the second-best scenario, your opponent will fret,
wonder what you were talking about -- perhaps even writing a blog post about
it -- and then lower their rates, or make other concessions (Perhaps they
won't _raise_ their rates in six months, the way they usually do? Perhaps they
will agree to push up the delivery date?). This will happen because you will
have subtly but effectively said "I think your rates are awfully high,
relative to the competition; you had better deliver".

It's just gamesmanship. If you really want to _know_ whether or not
programmers and designers can make comparable salaries, you need to get actual
data: Poll your colleagues, or try to hire some designers yourself and see
what they quote you. Or just wait and see if you ever get a job at your posted
rates.

~~~
xirium
> They may just be probing you to see if you will lower your rate.

That could be out of genuine ignorance. A friend referred potential clients
who had purchased "a set of integrated scripts" for 200 pounds (approximately
US$390) and "just" want them uploaded and configured. I looked at the scripts,
recognised some of them from Matt's Script Archive and quoted 20 hours work at
20 pounds per hour. They said no. Eventually, they went elsewhere and paid an
extra 50%. I suspect that they were too embarassed to admit that my quote was
reasonable.

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vlad
I think the client is simply trying to negotiate with the author. He felt like
his feelings were hurt; however, he should educate his customers.

If somebody replies, that means they are interested. And, they only said it
was a bit too much, not outrageously insane. Nor did they say they aren't
prepared to pay it. They're simply asking for reassurance from the guy that he
is a programmer.

The way to act on this is to respond nicely and educate the customer. In this
case, you would explain that you are the same great developer who created the
web site, but that __you agree with them __, and therefore included in the
hourly fee the additional work of consulting with a great programming resource
without charging them extra, because you like to meet their needs exactly the
way a great client like them deserves. Additionally, it should be easy for a
web developer to show the client examples of what you've done before that's
exactly what the client is looking for: a site based on graphics you designed,
and the results of one of those web site validity tools that shows your
CSS/XML code is as good as it looks. (And then if the client likes what you
coded, and you never end up having to subcontract a programmer, don't gloat
and tell them this.)

The author should put himself in his clients' shoes.

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donal
I take this as people not understanding what the heck they are putting out for
bid. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the last website they had was
whipped together by some exec's kid.

If they thought that his prices were high for PSD to HTML/CSS, then they'd
probably fall over dead if they wanted a quote for a back-end to go with it.

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michaelneale
I take this as people starting to accept programmer == professional, with
rates priced accordingly.

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immad
Not sure what the writers point is, its just supply and demand, but the client
phrased it badly and possibly undervalues the value of the writers skills

~~~
webframp
they obviously undervalue the writers skill. frontend and backend require
different skillsets, but the average person has no knowledge of what either
one is really worth.

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TheTarquin
Personally, I think it's because many clients are used to years of hearing
"programmer" and "web designer" as two separate jobs. If you're writing
desktop apps, well, you're a programmer. If you're doing web-based stuff, you
must be "just" a web designer.

And yes, you can easily do non-trivial stuff with a little light HTML and
Javascript, but once you start getting into serious CSS, PHP, etc. it ceases
to be something that anyone can pick up in an afternoon. In essence it becomes
the same sort of professional work that "programmers" do.

But to the client there's still "programmers" and "web designers", with the
prestige and the dollars definitely being associated (in their minds, anyway)
with the former.

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rgrieselhuber
The problem is that designers are, for some reason, measured by some odd
metric of technical difficulty and are paid accordingly. Something about our
culture doesn't let us value creative difficulty on a similar scale.

I come from more of a technical background, but I understand that high quality
design is worth its weight in gold. The interface is the app, the design is
the company in the minds of the customer.

Why you wouldn't want to pay for an outstanding designer is beyond me. When
you pay commodity prices, you get commodity resources.

~~~
jgamman
hhmmm, design on a website is weightless ergo worth its weight in gold --> $0.
methinks a new metaphor may need to be inserted here ;-)

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dhimes
This is just a rehash of the old, "who is more important, the engineer or the
marketer?" argument. If the marketer has nothing to sell, he's not very
important. Likewise, if the engineer can't bring her work to the world, she
won't be successful.

I look at good web design as a branch of marketing: you are branding your
product and making it known. Great marketers are extremely valuable, yet there
are also people who call themselves marketing experts who don't really
understand what marketing is all about.

