

How some Americans are treated in Israeli airports. - matheusalmeida
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/do-you-feel-more-arab-or-more-american-two-arab-american-womens-story-of-being-detained-and-interrogated-at-ben-gurion.html

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ari_
1\. Not sure why this is on HN.

2\. I am not shocked that this happened to two US Citizens of Arab descent -
they fit a certain profile and were PNGed at the border. I am sorry for their
experience and would demand more professionalism from the security agents at
the border. At the same time, any country can declare a non citizen a persona
non grata. If there was a plane leaving in 2 hours it's safe to assume they
would have been on that one.

3\. Quoting the USG: " Israeli authorities might consider as Palestinian
anyone who has a Palestinian identification number, was born in the West Bank
or Gaza, or was born in the United States but has parents or grandparents who
were born or lived in the West Bank or Gaza. Any such U.S. citizen might be
required by the Government of Israel to travel to Israel using a PA passport.
Without the PA passport, such U.S. citizens might be barred from entering or
exiting Israel, the West Bank, or Gaza, or they may face serious delays at the
ports of entry." <http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1064.html>

4\. Folks, encrypt your laptops at border crossings and forget the password.
This goes for the US as well. The 4th Amendment does not apply at US borders,
and most countries don't even have the niceties of the Bill of Rights.

5\. The US is just a little nicer:[http://nomadlaw.com/2010/04/i-am-detained-
by-feds-for-not-an...](http://nomadlaw.com/2010/04/i-am-detained-by-feds-for-
not-answering-questions/)

------
Protostome
I'm an Israeli and If their story is indeed true it makes me feel really
ashamed. A lot of people here do not approve of this racial screening in our
air ports. In response to a growing threat from arab countries and
organizations like Hizbullah, the country becomes more and more fascist and
paranoid, and it is becoming unbearable. Quite frankly, I would have
immigrated to the US if I could..

~~~
ari_
You should edit this to say: a small group of people living in the greater
Metro TLV area feel bad about how the rest of the country is treating Arabs,
Eritreans etc but only so long as it is NIMBY (not in my back yard)

~~~
Protostome
Personally I don't live in TLV, not even close. What would you say about that?
How's the Eritreans are related to how foreign innocent people are almost
violently forced to reveal their most private assets (gmail accounts for
example) in our air ports? Doesn't it make you a little bit uncomfortable? or
would you rather sacrifice any aspect of other people's personal freedom (as
long as its not your privacy that is being compromised .. ) for a false
selfish notion of safety?

------
liamondrop
I was born and raised in the US, so of course this seems upsetting and
offensive to read.

BUT, as humiliating and degrading as the treatment of these girls may sound to
western ears, you have to pull back and see that there is a larger picture and
that these conditions were created in a context of constant threat of serious
violence from all sides.

This is NOTHING like an employer asking you to log into your FB account. This
is about a country preventing the murder of its citizens. Forcing you to
expose all your potential secrets sends a pretty strong deterrent message to
anyone who would try. Being extremely invasive at the airports and doing
serious screening and interrogation is how Israel remains a relatively safe
place to live for its citizens and guests.

As the woman from the embassy pointed out, there are a lot of things wrong
with a lot of systems. At least this one was kind enough to allow a phone call
and to quickly arrange safe passage home.

~~~
dalke
".. may sound to western ears"

Ahh, interesting. So if we pull back further and look at the even larger
picture, I see that you disagree with the fundamental reasons for why at least
some in the US support Israel in the Middle East.

Quoting from the "Friends of Israel" (I could find similar quotes from many
other organizations): "Israel is a Western country. With a liberal democratic
political system operating under the rule of law, a flourishing market economy
producing technological innovation to the benefit of the wider world, and a
population as educated and cultured as anywhere in Europe or North America
Israel is a normal Western country with a right to be treated as such in the
community of nations."

Why do you say that Israel is not a western country?

~~~
ari_
Israel is not exactly a western country. It's a mostly parliamentary
democracy, with military rule in the areas of Judea and Samaria. In addition,
the law (even inside the 1948 armistice line), is patchwork of Ottoman,
British and Israeli law, with many rules still being enforced that were
originally promulgated by the British Mandate.

Finally, the country was founded mostly by eastern europeans with a strong
socialist ethic, and doesn't have the same genetic code that democracy in the
USA has. So for example: You can be detained indefinitely without habeas
corpus inside Judea and Samaria, and it's a little bit more complicated in the
rest of Israel (if you read hebrew this article gives a good overview
[http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A2%D7%A6%D7%A8_%D7%9E...](http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A2%D7%A6%D7%A8_%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%99))

------
z_
I don't think this can be said enough and judging from this story people don't
seem to get it yet but let's give it another whirl: National rights and
customs do not transfer with an individual.

~~~
moistgorilla
But as an American I am practically funding this. They can keep their holyland
for as long as they can hold it, I don't want my money funding their hate
culture.

~~~
jerrya

        US Aid to Israel $3B
    
        TSA Budget: $8B
        2012 Drone Budget (non-black) $5B
        2013 Drug War $25.6B

~~~
dalke
It doesn't work that way. For one, you may need to scale by population, since
obviously if there were only 1,000 people in Israel then we're probably
overpaying. Our military support to Israel comes out to about $400 per Israeli
resident, while the TSA spend is $26 per American resident. (BTW, as far as I
could tell, we send military aid to Israel and make an additional several
billion in "qualified loan guarantees", but that's all the direct financial
support we do these days. There are other types of support than financial.)

But it doesn't work that way either, since US military support sent to Israel
also comes back to purchase US weapons.

Yet another way to think of it is that Israel's military budget is $13 billion
and revenue is $61 billion, so we pay for about 25% of their military funding
and 5% of their total budget. Or another is that our $3 billion is about 1.2%
of their $235 billion GDP.

But it doesn't work that way either, since we support Israel for geopolitical
reasons, and for reasons specific to US internal politics, and therefore get
other things from our support.

In any case, simply comparing the US aid to Israel with the amount we spend on
other projects trivializes the matter. I believe moistgorilla was asking why
our many years of significant contribution to their budget doesn't give US
citizens special leeway when entering Israel, rather like how citizens of
Poland complain how despite having provided material support to the war effort
in Iraq they still aren't part of the US Visa Waiver program, or how Iraqi
interpreters are still waiting for the US visas they were promised.

~~~
jerrya
As an American my money goes against my wishes to fund a lot of _hate culture_
in my own backyard that I think worsens the world and increases danger in far
more destructive ways than Israel stupidly, but humanely, turning away
tourists at her borders.

It's not that I am practically funding these practices, it is that I am
funding these practices.

It's also arguable that the example here, of a sovereign nation turning away a
tourist is any sort of example of hate culture.

And the argument that if any country takes our aid then they have to live up
to our laws and expectations in each and every case is neither realistic, nor
always helpful, nor does it seem to lead to ends that we want.

~~~
dalke
This did not come across from your previous posting. I read it as saying that
we spend so much more on these other projects that we shouldn't be so
concerned with the money we send to Israel.

Thank you for your clarification. But then I don't understand why the TSA is
listed there. While I am opposed to it in part because it does not add any
extra security, I am not aware of any "hate crime" influence in its
operations.

~~~
jerrya
I think TSA here, in subway stations, and abroad (ask foreign travelers what
they think of when traveling to the US) is responsible for a great deal of
_hate culture_ related to the US.

~~~
dalke
That does make sense now. Thanks!

------
FelixP
Why is this on HN?

~~~
EiZei
Seeing all the hyping for Israel's startup scene it might be informative to
people who are unfortunate enough to have an ethnicity the state of Israel
does not approve.

~~~
jerrya
I have missed out on job opportunities and travel opportunities that were in
Saudi Arabia. Perhaps people should know about that as well.

~~~
dalke
HN is on the job!

You might be warned by these previous HN topics on life in Saudi Arabia: "In
Saudi Arabia Today, A Lady Went for a Drive", "Why western governments won’t
support democracy in Saudi Arabia", "Saudi Arabian judge asks hospitals to
paralyze man", "Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the
black thing?"

Plus as well the more tech-related warnings: "The Great Firewall of Saudi
Arabia - Smart & Dynamic Content Filtering", "It's Official: Saudi Arabia Bans
Blackberries", "Saudi Arabia blocks Facebook", and "Saudi Arabia bans blogging
without a license."

