
GoPro quits the drone business - ar7hur
https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/8/16862680/gopro-drones-business-stopped-layoffs-exit
======
flyinglizard
Another DJI victim. As an industry insider, if there ever was a company I'm
impressed with is DJI. Their technical depth and ability to evolve their
product and get it to shelves on short cycles is unmatched.

Note drone entrepreneurs - if there's money to be made in drones, DJI will
take it to itself.

The thing is that you simply can't compete with the vertical integration of
DJI. Taking images and videos is still by far and large the reason to fly
drones in the first place, and once you own the vertical stack and can
integrate your imagers with the electromechanics (gimbal) you get to a very
small and efficienct package.

Think about that: for every gram of camera, you need two grams of stabilizer,
then you need four grams of drone and battery to carry that. While DJI just
stabilize their optics and sensor, GoPro stabilizes an entire 80g, bulky
camera. This is mainly why the Karma is so big and heavy compared to the DJI
Mavic (there are some advantages to DJI in propulsion and batteries but those
are pretty small; not a lot of proprietary tech in those fields).

~~~
jsmthrowaway
DJI has miles and miles to go on the support, quality, and remediation side,
though. I've owned three DJI drones, starting with a Vision 2 Plus, and I've
never once had a positive support or defect experience. Not one. The software
is clunky, but getting better, and they badly want to lock you into their
ecosystem -- as in, you _must_ sign in to their cloud system now to use their
controllers, and it tracks all your flights.

The ability to say "yes, I know, DJI, the tiny grass strip 1km from my house
is an airport, but I'm fully FAA compliant with this flight" requires a
multitude of steps, involving both their app and a Web browser and copying and
pasting serial numbers from fields that do not permit copying, then the
authorization you get only lasts for 72 hours, so you have to do it again.
Otherwise you have to pay to be a "big pants" customer, but even then the
experience is less-than-ideal, with a lot of pros turning to Russian software
that doesn't perform the legal validation checks, etc. You literally cannot
obtain this authorization without an Internet connection, because they store
your attestations for liability insulation. So if you're in the field, and you
forgot to convince DJI that you're legal before you went out, you're driving
back to cellular range.

DJI's interaction with regulation, in particular, is a very broad example of
protecting themselves from liability by shunting a _lot_ of work to users of
the equipment.

They also assume you have an Internet connection by deferring to Google Maps,
with no offline ability that I can find. Google Maps does support offline now,
but the way they embed it in the controller software, if I'm out of cellular
range (which is a lot), my map box is a giant grid that moves around with the
drone and nothing else.

I wouldn't remotely consider them for professional work, the way they're
going, and I say that having dabbled in cartography, farming applications, and
aerial photography. Sure, they can get gear out, which is where you're coming
from, but there's a lifecycle of gear ownership that they pretty much entirely
ignore.

~~~
leggomylibro
Also, the ability to say "yes, I know, DJI, my local government is requesting
that you deny all flights in the area, but they are literally shooting
innocent people and I would like to document that" is nonexistent by design.

Which, fair enough - Chinese company. But the fact that such a sentiment could
also, from the point of view of the software, be something like "I need to
deliver life-saving medicine and the bridge is out" does not factor into their
decision-making.

~~~
ggg9990
You are asking a hobbyist drone to fulfill professional functions. If you need
a drone for government accountability you need to own your own stack.

~~~
leggomylibro
That is totally fair. It's just a good example of why it would be nice to see
more competition in this space rather than less.

Although on the other hand, it's just a tool. My hobbyist wrench doesn't
refuse to work on a bolt that asks it not to. My professional screwdriver
doesn't have extra authentication built in.

~~~
ggg9990
It’s “just a tool,” but without the built in restrictions you can be sure
there would be even greater numbers of morons doing stupid stuff with drones.
DJI is doing what many companies from Facebook to Smith & Wesson have been
critiqued for NOT doing: putting in some basic protections against entirely
predictable user behaviors, and self-regulating in the hope of avoiding
government regulation.

------
payne92
Disappointing, but not surprising.

I've looked at quite a few drone startup projects (as investments). I'm not
sure everyone fully understands how formidable DJI is right now.

They are the Apple/Amazon AWS of the drone market.

~~~
at-fates-hands
I had the same reaction.

I used to be a loyal 3DR customer and owned both the Iris+ and Solo. Both were
very capable and had some outstanding features, but DJI pushed them out of the
market pretty quickly. They did so by flooding the market with a broader range
of models, and then reduced the price of their mid tier models which killed
3DR sales. The day I read that 3DR had sold their mapping software (Site Scan)
to DJI, the writing was on the wall.

I unloaded all my 3DR stuff that weekend and now own a Mavic Pro and a Spark.

Having been following the industry for about 5 years now, I'm not sure there
are any viable competitors to DJI. There are some smaller players like Yuneec,
but the technology and price points can't compare to DJI. It's the same thing
GoPro found out the hard way. Stumble once, and DJI just sweeps up the crumbs
and forces you out of the market.

~~~
totalZero
I thought the Solo was killed by a random flyaway malfunction...at least,
that's what I read when I was trying to figure out why it was available for
like 400 bucks. Is that not the case?

I ended up buying a Mavic Pro. Never even so much as saw a Solo in person. In
your experience, how do they compare?

~~~
at-fates-hands
The Solo was rushed into production in order to try and compete with DJI's new
Phantom 3 line.

The Phantom 3 was way ahead of the Solo in nearly every spec. Better camera
(4K vs. 1080p), longer battery, longer range and better GPS. Many users I know
attribute the controller issues with the fact 3DR used some proprietary GPS
instead of the more common one the DJI models used.

The nail in the coffin though was the gimbal. The P3 came with a three axis
gimbal, even on their entry model. The Solo, because it was rushed, at first
didn't even ship with a gimbal and they said they would sell it separately as
an add-on. Then it shipped with one that didn't move at all
([http://macnn.mnmcdn.com/article_images/128157-md-26378-Solo_...](http://macnn.mnmcdn.com/article_images/128157-md-26378-Solo_Social_5.jpg)),
and when they finally got the three axis one on there, it was already too
late. I also found out later a lot of the demo's they did the Solo's they were
using had souped up GPS and other software they didn't have on the retail
models people were getting.

My Solo had a lot of the common issues. It would take off fine, but only go
about 75ft and then hover, then the gps would cut in and out and I'd panic and
have to land it. Sent it back a few times and nothing was ever resolved. After
my third replacement, I threw in the towel. My Iris+ was far more dependable
and I only ever had really minor issues with it. A simple re-calibration
always fixed any issues. I had a three axis gimbal on it with a gopro Hero 5
and it was always dependable. I ended up selling it because I could go from
hauling around a huge Pelican 1650 case to my backpack with the Mavic.

After having both, I finally came to the conclusion DJI has a far superior
product. They're innovating faster, and packing way more tech into their
drones than any other company. Add in the fact they're making these things
smaller and smaller. It makes it WAY easier to transport. Like I said, I can
toss my chrome bag over my shoulder, walk into the city, unpack and get my
Spark up in a matter of minutes, get some footage and get out before the cops
show up. No way I could do that with either the Solo or the Iris. The startup
time for both was several minutes (anywhere from 2-5 mins) to get a GPS lock.
With the Spark and Mavic its almost instantaneous.

Hope this helps. My advice is to stick with DJI, even their entry models are
better than most mid range drone models from other companies.

------
nolok
I have a GoPro, and I love it.

But for a pet project I also bought a cheap sub-80 euros clone off of alibaba
(found the same on amazon.fr a few euros more expensive), and I have to say
the quality of it was good enough for most usage I actually have, and it came
with equipment to attach it, take it underwater, ... To the point I realized,
if I had neither now for my need that cheap one with a good sd card would be
enough.

There is obviously a place for GoPro as a brand but given how the bazillion
smartphone camera optics produced every years helped improve the field
immensely in price/quality, their attempt to capture the market while having
decent margins was doomed. Most people will prefer "good enough, third of the
price".

At least that's how I view it.

~~~
simook
Those cheap chinese knock offs are made with cheap components and I have no
doubts that the factory conditions are terrible. I wouldn't be suprised if the
supply chain for these cheap cameras will be shutdown with China finally being
serious about pollution.

~~~
cosmie
In some cases, I’ve gotten products off AliExpress that were made far more
robustly internally than the name-brand product they were imitating (not
direct knockoffs pretending to be authentic, just obvious imitations).

The economics of buying from AliExpress/Alibaba can work out slightly
differently than buying from a Western company that’s sourcing from China.
Cutting out the middleman allows them to sell it at a price that I find cheap
while they’re still able to capture far more profit than from a wholesale
purchase. Potentially _improving_ conditions vs if you bought the non-knock
off.

Not to say that happens in every case. Nor as a broad comment on the
conditions of factory work in China. But food for thought on the benefit of
buying _directly_ from Chinese companies.

~~~
double0jimb0
What happens when there is no upside for the original
creators/designers/inventors? Who designs the next best thing?

------
baybal2
There is a lot of space left in drone industry, but mostly in niches.

1\. Serious UAV for serious aerial photography. DJI still suck there, but the
distance from their best offer and the nearest competitor is around $180k USD

2\. Serious UAV for remote sensing. DJI simply has no offers there other than
a consumer handheld ir camera screwed on to a quad

3\. High performance. DJI still can't approach mid-tier amateur aerobatic
brands

4\. Agricultural use, chemical sprayer. DJI has something for Chinese internal
market, but they get steamrolled by domestic competition.

5\. High payload. DJI have nothing made specially for this niche

~~~
jinushaun
GoPro is exiting the consumer space and decided it couldn't compete with the
professional space, which DJI completely dominates.

I personally think it's a smart move by GoPro because I don't see any growth
potential in the consumer space with flights being banned anywhere
interesting.

------
sumoboy
The DJI Mavic introduced right after the GoPro Karma pretty much ended its
future. You would have thought gopro would have been partnered with so many
drone makers years ago instead of going at it alone. That company needs a new
leader.

------
afinlayson
The issue is they have been doing _me too_ mentality for the last 3 years.

Cheap GoPro eroded their margins, and ignored the fact that for most people
their cell phone is good enough for video. Karma, and their gimbal is great,
but products like Rylo saw the future as being motor-less. And after using it,
I agree.

If the karma had built a battery-less Fusion, they would have had something
that was new, instead of trying to play catch up and gerry-rigging a GoPro to
a drone.

I still have hope, but they got take more risks and build their future not
someone else's.

~~~
vosper
The Rylo camera looks amazing. If GoPro doesn't get something equivalent or
better out in the next 6 months I think the Rylo camera will destroy them in
the consumer market. It appears to take everything that's annoying about
casually using a GoPro (aiming it, capturing steady video, tracking a subject)
and make it go away, or be fixable in their app.

And you can buy it today.

~~~
mynameisvlad
Isn't their Fusion
([https://shop.gopro.com/cameras/fusion/CHDHZ-101.html](https://shop.gopro.com/cameras/fusion/CHDHZ-101.html))
camera supposed to be the equivalent of the Rylo? I see nothing the Rylo can
do that it can't, although the Rylo looks _far_ nicer doing it.

------
reacweb
IMHO, they are wrong. GoPro has build a very good reputation. If the margins
are too small, they could increase their prices and slightly erode their
reputation. If they quit, they lose what they have build. A long time ago, I
have heard the story of a sotfware company that was on the verge of bankruptcy
because of their small margin. They decided to triple their prices and update
the packaging. They have lost half their clients and saved the company that
became very profitable. When Oracle bought Sun, they almost double the prices
of many services. If Sun did it, maybe it would last longer.

~~~
caio1982
The reputation they built has been spilling on the floor for a couple of years
I'm afraid.

~~~
ktta
To investors, but I feel it maintains its repute as an established brand with
the average consumer.

~~~
totalZero
I agree. Investors tend to group GoPro in with FitBit and several other niche
personal technologies. There are some nuances that get lost in translation
from consumer to investor.

I have owned a number of their products, and have (twice) sent in a Hero4 for
a free replacement after it stopped working. I use these cameras during long
distance trips on my motorcycle, so I don't think the failures of those two
cameras were entirely due to a manufacturer's defect. Still, no questions
asked, they took care of me and even sent me a free gift after the second time
one of my store-bought Hero4's malfunctioned.

I like the product and the connectivity has gotten a lot better with the
Hero6.

------
matte_black
Ah shit, it's over. GoPro stock is finished. I knew I should have sold.

~~~
coldtea
Haven't sold already? They've been going from blunder to ho-hum product
introduction for 3 years or more.

There are so many things that they could have added to GoPro 5 or 6, and so
little they did add, that it's embarrassing. Plus their drone fiasco.

~~~
matte_black
I was hoping GoPro 6 would change things. I haven't been holding it for years,
I only bought when it was around 10.

------
IanDrake
The biggest problem I have with GoPro is price. I've lost a few cameras
surfing and I'd be willing to give up quality for a concession on price.

Alternatively, if they made their product more find-able through some sort of
tracking/recovery feature, I'd be happy to spend $600 on their camera.

Same type of problem with their drone, not enough features that protect the
investment to make it worth the money. For instance, it isn't waterproof. That
would at least give me a reason to buy it over a DJI model.

~~~
collias
I surf with mine all the time. Are you using the mount that came with the
camera, or the actual surf mount that they sell?

The actual surf mount comes with a leash that you can tie to the camera. You
can also attach one of those orange floaty blocks to your camera to make it
easier to find.

~~~
IanDrake
Using GoPro-branded surf camera mount, tether, and float. One time the tether
broke, the other time the tether pulled the plastic bit off the board.

Neither time did the float help me. Both times were in pretty heavy 2’
overhead surf and my body made contact with the cam while trying to pigdog
through a pinching barrel but not making it.

------
caio1982
I understand where GoPro came from and all but I just can't get how they think
they will survive with Nick Woodman.

------
ggg9990
This is what happens when American companies offshored all of their production
to China. Eventually the Chinese companies figure out that they can do the
whole thing themselves, and do it better.

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ng-user
Is this the precursor to GoPro's inevitable demise?

e: if you feel the need to down vote, please let me know why you disagree

~~~
DarronWyke
Possibly. Given the number of competitors in the "adventure camera" business
like Contour and a variety of Chinese manufacturers, they're going to end up
taking hits on it. Their cameras are already very pricey -- part of the reason
why I went with a Contour.

------
perlgeek
Do they have any other business areas than drones? I never heard their name in
another context.

~~~
khedoros1
Who, GoPro? They're just about synonymous with what I guess are called "action
cameras" (small, rugged cameras used to record sports, often from the
perspective of the athlete).

