
What does “outsider artist” even mean? (2012) - Pete_D
https://hyperallergic.com/56801/what-does-outsider-artist-even-mean/
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plaguuuuuu
The art world really bothers me. Every artist I know (successful or otherwise)
admits that success at art is essentially a popularity contest.

Art has been transformed from something that attempts to convey meaning and
emotion, despite subjectivity and reliance on shared language specific to
one's own culture, to a fetishization of an artwork's background narrative. ie
the process (this particular painting of a square, that looks like every other
uniform square painting, was done by doing _xyz_ therefore it's different) and
background story of the artist or artwork (this one was painted by a blind nun
from some oppressed country). The artwork itself is meaningless save for the
narrative surrounding it. It's impossible to understand or experience anything
when looking at the artwork, but the background text next to it elucidates the
narrative.

That's why "outsider art" is hilarious to me. In many cases it's totally
accidental art, or a pisstake: see, comedy shows bringing random objects, like
dustbins or fire hydrants, into galleries.. cue dozens of thoughtful onlookers
- or even unrepentant shit. But the fetishization of narrative elevates it to
mainstream acceptance (despite the artist not being in the cool kids' club).
And conversely, in other cases, outsiders are the only ones actually making
art in the first place, because everyone else on the inside is too busy trying
to score it big by adhering to trends.

~~~
nerdponx
I think the only difference between "then" and "now" is that "back then" you
had to have some kind of mechanical, technical skill, like sculpting or
painting. Now (1950s-present), anyone can do anything and call it "art".
Without any kind of technical merit to separate "great", "good", "mediocre",
and "bad", what do you have left but self-reinforcing popularity?

Consider outsider music. It's outsider because it weird and usually lacks
something in execution, e.g. recording quality.

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nafey
I have heard it being explained as invention of photography necessitated a
different approach to art. As realism was no longer only possible through an
artist they had to go in a different direction. Impressionism, which can
perhaps be regarded as the first major artistic movement that tried to move
away from realism, also began around the invention of camera.

~~~
Viliam1234
Why can't that "different approach" be simply painting (realistically) things
that don't exist?

For example:

Pictures of something that existed in the past, but was destroyed. Or someone
who died. Or a younger portrait of someone.

Pictures that differ from reality, such as putting together two famous
buildings that actually exist in different cities, near-equator stuff covered
by snow, scenes containing objects with incorrect size... Or impossible
structures, like Escher did, only more realistically.

Science fiction, fantasy, fairy tales...

Painting a "realistic" dragon requires skills, and cannot be replaced by
photography. Why don't modern artists show their skills at this?

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extralego
Answer: class

Pierre Bourdieu does as decent job as any in breaking down the social topology
of class, but his legacy is fraught with his failure to sufficiently account
for many economic phenomena that are constantly becoming more clear. It’s hard
to elaborat on these in short. The case study of outsider art is a useful case
study both in defense of and in objection to Bourdieu’s comprehensions of
social class.

The insistence on a distinction so classist as “outsider art” is just another
shameful depravity in the name of maintaining a VIP zone for the bourgeois in
a world of mass media. Let’s remember “the art world” didn’t exist until the
90s.

~~~
yontherubicon
Considering the ugliness espoused by "The Art World," I can't imagine that any
true artist would want to be anything _other_ than an "Outsider Artist."

~~~
duxup
Yeah but that leaves a prime spotlight available in non outsider art....

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braythwayt
Always a fun watch: “Mom and Pop Art,” in which Homer Simpson bcomes an
outsider artist.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mom_and_Pop_Art](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mom_and_Pop_Art)

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dood
The term refers to people who don't try to get into the art world in-group but
still create interesting things, so "outsider" is an accurate and literal
description of their status. However the in-group is uncomfortable with
consciously engaging with this dynamic and the dysfunction it points to, so
engages in a little double-think and invents more palatable justifications for
using the term "outsider".

The idea of ignoring in-group games of meaning and status, instead creating
works entirely from playful self-expression, is so alien it is best left
outside.

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Fricken
Ha, I've been subscribed to Wendy Vainity's YouTube channel for years. I had
no idea anybody else gave a fuck, I just thought it was genuinely weird stuff.
I'm not even sure how I came across it.

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techbio
I was invited to exhibit in an outsider art gallery many years ago and
declined, because I would not settle for less than full credibility.

The semi-inclusion by "relegating these creators to special art ghetto" is
just a sort of aquarium to interact with selected, but not accepted artists,
to be ogled in their foreignness and endowed with platitudes of "how creative
they are".

Outsider artists should all be given a stipend for materials on the completion
of their 100th piece, at which point it just comes back to the basic income
discussion.

Tax the robots.

~~~
vvpan
Could you elaborate on the "Tax the robots." bit? I am welcoming to the idea
and curious what you mean in this case.

~~~
techbio
I'm no tax expert, and it's certainly counter to current political powers at
nearly every level of government, but if one looks at inputs into a robot's
operating costs as income, and taxes the operator as an employer obligated to
pay their share of income and FICA taxes, we could likely see higher long-term
employment and training of workers as well as continued solvency for social
safety net programs.

Edit: Of course, at some uncalculated cost to high-growth innovation
investment opportunities. Because greater-good is a tricky balance.

~~~
s-shellfish
What do robots have to do with outsider artists?

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techbio
Finding money to support the disenfranchised.

Edit: My original answer was unclear and too brief for someone.

A clearer answer is that outsider artists, as generally identified by profound
social marginalization, typically resulting from mental illnesses, are
statistically almost never able to support themselves on art-making.

Programs exist for the mentally ill, yet it would be a hard case to make that
these are sufficient for creating quality of life such that everyone suffering
in that category, and who would rather be making art as a primary occupation,
can support themselves and live independently (provided that is a goal) on art
making income.

But like many causes, money for this cause is harder to come by than it could
be in the wealthiest nation in the world.

Extracting money, not currently available, from the least creative of workers
to support creative work and fulfilling lives for "outsider artists" and all
others on the margins of the modern economy seems to me a kind of fair play.

~~~
s-shellfish
This is a bad thing for art?

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techbio
This is not achieved by the rare "outsider art" sale. I'm not sure why you
have a problem with my original post, or if you even read it.

~~~
s-shellfish
I can't understand most of it, to be honest. My perspective is art can
sometimes take centuries to make sense from the creator to the person that
it's right for, so it doesn't make sense to expect a functioning, mechanized
economy to provide for it.

That's the point of art. To tell an idea to someone who needs it. If you tax
it and expect it to work like everything else does, it can't do that.

~~~
ModernMech
> That's the point of art. To tell an idea to someone who needs it.

Maybe for some people, but art for me has always been about expressing myself.
I've never created anything for someone else's enjoyment. If someone happens
to enjoy it, okay then, but it's my feelings on the canvas, not my
interpretation of what you need to see on the canvas.

~~~
s-shellfish
I understand that sentiment. I also understand the other.

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tomlock
Given the beat-up that postmodernism has been given in recent years, its kind
of interesting to see that discussions that rest on some key postmodern ideas
continue to be relevant.

I think the key takeaway, if any from postmodernism, is that categorisations
are never as objective as we'd like. Language is made up, and the points don't
matter.

What even is art?

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bigbluedots
Art is whatever people say it is.

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jonnydubowsky
Does anyone know what software she uses to make these videos? The one mapping
her talking and the overall 3d rendering software?

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detaro
Her channel intro video has some named in the description:

> _my favourite software is Carrara by DAZ 3D. I also use Poser7 from
> Smithmicro /content paradise and iClone from Reallusion_

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jonnydubowsky
thanks!

