
The Political History of Pad Thai - sjcsjc
https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/food-drink/article/3007657/history-pad-thai-how-stir-fried-noodle-dish-was-invented-thai
======
zxexz
Thailand has successfully put a lot of effort in exporting cuisine.

It's no wonder that Pad Thai and other Thai cuisine is ubiquitous in many
countries, with the Thai government putting so much effort into
'gastrodiplomacy' [0][1]. I'm certainly not complaining!

[0]
[https://web.archive.org/web/20130926085448/http://thailand.p...](https://web.archive.org/web/20130926085448/http://thailand.prd.go.th/view_news.php?id=5585&a=2)

[1] [https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/paxadz/the-surprising-
rea...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/paxadz/the-surprising-reason-that-
there-are-so-many-thai-restaurants-in-america)

~~~
mc32
What’s interesting is that Thai food in some east Asian countries is
considered fancy and the price reflects that while in North America most of
them (but not all) are the affordable kind —that is on par with other non-
fancy food joints.

~~~
Thorentis
Interesting observation!

In Australia it is similar. Roughly speaking, the following cuisines have
these types of price ranges:

Indian: $-$$ Chinese: $-$$$ Thai: $$ Japanese: $$-$$$ Italian: $-$$$$ French:
$$$-$$$$ Local: $$-$$$$

It seems that Asian is fairly set on low-mid, while European can go higher and
still do well. Same with Japense and Chinese. Italian has been so integrated
into the local cuisine that you have very cheap to very fancy. French is rare
so more expensive. Japense also rare, though sushi train type places are
becoming more popular (though still on the pricer side).

~~~
toomanybeersies
I'd say that cheap Italian and expensive Italian food are completely different
cuisines in Australia.

Cheap places are "Australian Italian", usually with incredibly generic menus
and large servings of bland food. That's your Lygon Street Italian, if you're
familiar with Melbourne.

Expensive places usually serve "Italian Italian".

~~~
sidpatil
What are some typical "Australian Italian" dishes?

~~~
hug
Lasagna, Carbonara (often with cream), and Bolognese. Chicken Parmigiana or
schnitzel. Probably some very average pizzas.

For contrast, here's Universal's menu, which is a "Lygon Street" Italian
restaurant:
[https://www.universalrestaurant.com.au/menu](https://www.universalrestaurant.com.au/menu)

Compared to nearby Tipo 00, what I would probably consider to be more
authentic Italian (although still not 'expensive'):
[https://www.tipo00.com.au/food/](https://www.tipo00.com.au/food/)

There are also significantly better inauthentic-Italian experiences around,
like Capitano which takes its cues from Italian-American food culture.

------
wenc
"Gastro-diplomacy": the Korean government did something similar.

[https://qz.com/747757/your-newfound-love-of-korean-food-
is-a...](https://qz.com/747757/your-newfound-love-of-korean-food-is-a-
government-conspiracy/)

Interestingly, it turns out that competent governments _are_ able to export
culture and brand in a directed, purposeful way (as opposed to organic) if
they put enough money and effort behind the effort and have the right kind of
staffing.

It's fascinating because most government tourism boards rarely achieve
success. I'd never have imagined that bureaucrats would know anything about
promoting the arts.

~~~
barrkel
> _most government tourism boards rarely achieve success_

How do you figure that? Most government tourism advertising is branding, and
not specific to a business (it's usually "Visit X" with some motivational
photos, where X is a country or region). Countries certainly have brands, are
perceived in a certain way. Are you suggesting that brand advertising has no
effect on this? Is it that brand advertising works for brands other than
countries?

~~~
wenc
I speculate, but have no data, that most exercises carried out by tourism
boards like advertising, cultural events, etc. barely move the needle on
tourism because they're based on the usual drab formula of advertising and
cultural events.

To really create interest in a country, one has to export a desirable
mainstream cultural product like food or media. One has to tell a story, and
good branding requires a compelling story.

I mean, if all there was were nice advertising of sandy beaches and temples in
Thailand, etc. I'd probably not be motivated to visit. Nothing wrong with it,
but there's no emotional connection because there's no narrative (sandy
beaches are everywhere, and there are temples in most Asian countries --
there's nothing distinct about these things in themselves). But the tourism
board of many countries stick to this formula because there's not much
imagination on what else there is to be done.

On the other hand I've eaten Thai food regularly due to the ubiquity of Thai
restaurants in North America, watched viral tearjerker Thai commercials on
Youtube, watched Muay Thai (popularized by American movies like Kickboxer, and
more recently by Tony Jaa's movies like Ong Bak), read stories about Bangkok's
traffic jams where people have to pee in a cup (probably hyperbole), seen
Thailand featured on travel shows like Bourdain's -- the result of which I now
have a human connection to Thailand and made me want to visit. (I did a few
years ago and really enjoyed it)

I can't say I have the same feelings about Indonesia for instance, even though
it's the 4th largest country in the world and probably quite fascinating to
visit. Australians frequent Bali because it's a nearby tropical destination,
but I'd bet many people around the world couldn't tell you much about
Indonesia if you asked them. Now imagine if Indonesia started exporting its
food, which I can attest is quite good based on what I had in Amsterdam. That
would start a whole new conversation about Indonesia.

~~~
barrkel
Sure - you can't tell much of a story in a single image, so you piggy-back on
an existing narrative, and increase its salience and availability, while
associating it with the brand target.

I'm no advertising expert, but I don't believe that brand advertising doesn't
work. It's clear that Thailand is already more salient and relevant to you,
but that doesn't mean that advertising for Indonesia is pointless; it's just
that it's starting with fewer hooks, and it's got to reach for stories more
indirectly.

~~~
wenc
I wouldn't make the extrapolation that brand advertising doesn't work --
that's too general. I was merely observing that for countries (as opposed to
consumer products), advertising alone isn't sufficiently salient to create an
emotional connection -- efforts to produce culture and export soft power are
much more along the right track.

Take Canada for instance -- I'm from there. Anthony Bourdain had this to say
on Canadian tourism ads: “Whoever is in charge of promoting Canada abroad
completely have their heads up their asses. It’s all like bears and swatting
salmon and Mounties.”

Canada is so much richer than the stereotypes Americans have of us -- we're
not just about the pristine wilderness, cold winters and funny accents.
Canada's cities are culturally deep and have a dynamism fueled by immigration
that is palpable--and more compelling than many U.S. cities--due to sheer
Brownian motion collisions of different cultures. The dynamism of Toronto
rivals and in some ways exceed that of Chicago where I now live.

So much culture and innovation is being created every day in food (especially
in Montreal), TV shows, movies, universities, arts, etc. in Canada but no one
has figured out how to sell that.

To be fair, there are some small successes: Anne of Green Gables for instance
is a distinct cultural product that guarantees hordes of visitors to Prince
Edward Island every summer without fail and with a near zero advertising
budget. We need more of this.

------
gumby
The article was about food but glossed over one point: the kingdom of Siam was
multi-ethnic, including various people with shared connections across borders
(e.g. muslim Malays, Hmong, Karen, Chinese, etc). Switching to "Thai" land was
intended to marginalize these other factions. I mention this because the name
change was blandly listed along with mentioning the desire to dechinesify the
noodles' origin.

This was very much the tenor of the times: Hungary had achieved dual status in
the "Austro-Hungarian" empire half a century before; by the 30s "national"
self determination was all the rage thanks to WW1, Woodrow Wilson, and picking
apart the bones of the Ottoman Empire.

I am not a member of any of the groups involved with no axe to grind (at least
in this regard!). But since the article was both a fun trivia piece but
brushed against this topic I thought it worth clarifying.

~~~
naravara
This article and your comment actually clarified a lot for me. I always
thought it was strange how many quintessentially "Thai" things have the word
"Thai" in their names (muay thai, pad Thai, Thai tea, etc.) It didn't seem
natural that people would make stuff and then self-consciously name it after
their own ethnicity. It would be like Indians calling their tea preparation
"Indian Tea" rather than just using "chai," the native Indian word for "tea."

The Indianness of the tea wouldn't have been a relevant thing if it's being
made in India for other Indians after all. So why would Thai people invent a
style of boxing and then call it "Thai style boxing" even in their native
language?

It hadn't occurred to me that it was all a top-down effort to create a
"national identity" and didn't organically develop from the folk culture at
all.

~~~
YeGoblynQueenne
Well, in Greece we call a particular kind of coffee "Turkish coffee" [1] and
that's definitely not for nationalistic reasons, we're supposed to be enemies
with the Turks. In fact, some people do call Turkish coffee "Greek coffee" and
that seems to have started for nationalistic reasons, but to my experience
most people mix the two names freely.

The reason is really to tell that kind of coffee apart from e.g. Italian or
French coffee styles (we call filter coffee "French" whereas we don't call
anything in particular "Italian coffee" but of course there's lots of
preparation styles that originate in Italy).

So sometimes maybe it's a bit of a mix? If you have a variety of something
that's distinctly different from what your neighbours are using you might want
to call it "my-style X" just to know what you're talking about. Of course then
there's a bit of nationalistic pride that comes with it "this is how _we_ do
it" etc.

________________

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_coffee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_coffee)

~~~
naravara
Do Turks call it the word for coffee or is it referred to as "Turkish coffee?"
though? In Thai the Thais themselves call these things "X Thai" in their own
language.

Like it makes sense to me that we might have domestic boxing and then decide
that boxing from the country across the border is [Neighboring Country]
Boxing. What was confusing for me is people calling THEIR OWN style of boxing
"[Our Country] Boxing."

FWIW, in the case of Muay Thai it was basically invented as a sport in the
modern age. It's derived from an older martial art known as "Muay Boran,"
which translates to "Ancient Boxing" and is more analogous to traditional
martial arts like Kung Fu. Muay Thai was developed to create a Thai national
sport to compete with Western boxers.

------
NikolaeVarius
Ramen was also heavily popularized by US influence
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramen#Postwar_popularization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramen#Postwar_popularization)
due to American wheat flooding Japans market and other similar factors.

~~~
GuB-42
Ramen is also a modern food, but at the opposite end of the spectrum compared
to Pad Thai.

Pad Thai is top down designed. Made by the government to be appreciated by
most people, but with enough character to make it distinctive of the country.

Ramen is bottom up. That's essentially people trying to make survival food
taste good.

And it shows. The base recipe for Pad Thai is always the same, just like with
traditional food. Individual chefs then add their own personal touch.

Ramen however vary wildly. It is a soup, and there are noodles in it but
beside that there is no real recipe. There are some common themes (ex: pork,
onion, seaweed, ...), but you will probably find more exception than there are
rules.

While a restaurant can claim it serves "true" Pad Thai, "true" Ramen makes no
sense.

~~~
CobrastanJorji
Is Pad thai designed? The article seems to have implied that the guy who
decided it was a national standard was just a thing his housekeeper happened
to make.

------
mmhsieh
Somehow haggis never took off. Next year, Scotland.

~~~
bregma
One local place here served haggis nachos. The lungs, heart, and liver of a
sheep boiled, ground, seasoned, mixed with oatmeal and stuffed in its own
rectum to be boiled again then chopped and sprinkled over corn chips with
salsa and cheese and served with sour cream and guacamole. What's not to love?

~~~
KuiN
> The lungs, heart, and liver of a sheep boiled, ground, seasoned, mixed with
> oatmeal and stuffed in its own rectum

Hey we're no monsters. It's the heart, lungs & liver of a sheep stuffed into
it's _stomach_ not it's rectum. (Though often these days it's in an artificial
casing, the whole stomach thing seems to put people off).

~~~
bregma
Ah, yes, it's clearly the stomach that puts them off. I thought it was the
oatmeal.

------
ravenstine
> A bowl of rice noodles uses less grain than does a serving of plain rice,
> and after the second world war Thailand experienced a rice shortage.
> Popularizing the noodles was also a way to make precious grain supplies last
> longer.

I like the hypothesis, though I wish this was tested. In my experience, rice
can be pretty airy once it's been scooped.

Nevertheless, pad thai is amazing.

------
kyleblarson
Bit of an aside but I've been cooking out of this Thai cookbook lately and
it's been super fun and delicious:
[https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/547465/night--
marke...](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/547465/night--market-by-
kris-yenbamroong/)

~~~
cbsks
Thanks for the recommendation! I just put it on my wishlist.

------
madeofpalk
Probably the biggest thing I’ve missed since moving from Australia to London
is remotely passable Thai food. Thankfully I’ve found one place, on Deliveroo,
that is pretty decent, but everywhere else is mostly rubbish unfortunately.

~~~
andyljones
What's the one place?

~~~
madeofpalk
Love Bike Thai Kitchen, around Cannonbury.

------
massanishi
No wonder when I visited Georgia (country), they had more Thai restaurants
than Chinese restaurants. That's unheard of coming from the North American
background.

~~~
98codes
You haven't lived in Seattle apparently. We get new Thai places like Manhattan
gets new bank branches.

~~~
asguy
Or Portland. You can throw a rock and hit a decent Thai restaurant.

~~~
hasmolo
I love the why for Portland. I've always felt like we have so many Thai places
because they are so flexible on options.

Going to dinner with lactose intolerant folks, vegans, veggies, and
carnivores? Thai will easily serve everyone, and there will be multiple
choices for each person.

~~~
selimthegrim
s/o to Pad Thai Kitchen on Belmont. I hope they're still kicking.

~~~
solarfair
They definitely are alive and delicious :)

------
TrackerFF
There's been popping up Thai restaurants left and right here in Norway for the
past 15-20 years.

I suspect it has something to do with the large amount of Thai women
immigrating here...hell, even in my small rural hometown of 3000, there's one
Thai restaurant, and one Thai food truck. Every neighboring town and village
has the same.

And you always see them selling spring rolls etc. on facebook buy / sell
groups.

------
m3kw9
Most Thai places cannot make good pad Thai. I don’t know why, but I’d have to
go to one that is known to have a good one, otherwise it’s usually way too
sweet

~~~
shantly
I’ve had three, one allegedly from somewhere pretty good, and all were _way_
too sweet for my taste. Only had a couple bites of each, just found them
really unpleasant. And I’m American, so I’m fairly desensitized to sugar!

------
strictnein
A sort of related question that I've struggled to get a good answer on: how
does one actually pronounce "Pad" in "Pad Thai"?

Pad as in iPad?

Or closer to pod?

~~~
rnicholus
Either, really. And you’ll hear Thai people pronounce it either way (depending
on their English reference - usually British), since locals will not call it
“Pad Thai”.

~~~
mdturnerphys
Not sure what you mean by this. This is the name in Thai and "ผัดไทย" ([pʰàt
tʰāj] in IPA) is what is written on shops and carts where it's sold.

The vowel in "pad" is in between the two options given in the question above.
Unlike English, where accents primarily change the vowels, vowels stay quite
constant across accents in Thai.

~~~
jdmichal
The /a/ in Thai is a _central_ vowel. This is different than English /a/,
which is a _front_ vowel. And /o/ is the open _back_ vowel. That is why it
falls between English ⟨pad⟩ and ⟨pod⟩. And if you don't speak a language with
such a vowel, any particular utterance will probably be mentally mapped to one
or the other.

------
jimmyseoul
My fiancé is Thai, so I eat a lot of Thai food. Pad Thai is still my favorite
though she says it’s considered street food in Thailand lol.

~~~
kgwgk
Fiancée.

~~~
shantly
Could be either, really. 21st century and all that. (Making some assumptions
about a screen name beginning with “jimmy”)

[edit] oh missed the “she” so you’re right. Probably?

------
kazinator
Beware: a lot of the off-the-shelf sauces don't have any trace of tamarind.

------
podiki
While this short article gets the point across, it is a short rehash of the
article [1] (which is quoted and linked Quartz)

[https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/food-
drink/article/3007657/hi...](https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/food-
drink/article/3007657/history-pad-thai-how-stir-fried-noodle-dish-was-
invented-thai)

~~~
dang
Ugh, that's bad. Thanks for catching it. We've changed the URL from
[https://qz.com/quartzy/1617172/thailands-beloved-pad-thai-
di...](https://qz.com/quartzy/1617172/thailands-beloved-pad-thai-dish-has-a-
strange-political-history/), which is a ripoff of this.

------
Canada
The dish is foreign in Thailand too. It's always available where westerners
might be expected to ask for it but I've never, ever, ever seen anyone Thai
order it. (Where westerners are not expected it's not on the menu) I can
completely understand why as it's never even half as good as a cheap place
outside Thailand would serve. It's always kinda dry and bland. You can even
massively overpay for it at the best hotels in Bangkok and still it sucks.
It's like trying to get proper American Chinese in China... good luck with
that.

~~~
iamaelephant
> The dish is foreign in Thailand too. It's always available where westerners
> might be expected to ask for it but I've never, ever, ever seen anyone Thai
> order it.

I'm sorry but what on Earth are you talking about? I can only assume you have
simply never visited Thailand? This is just so inaccurate I don't know what to
say.

~~~
jzwinck
I live in Southeast Asia and have been to Thailand many times. Pad Thai is
well known to every Thai person but it is not seen all that often on their
plates (or in their plastic bags, where takeaway food is conveyed). And indeed
a lot of Thai restaurant menus do not list Pad Thai, or if they do it's far
down the list, like "chicken fingers" in an American restaurant.

In tourist hotspots (which abound in Thailand) you'll tend to see picture
menus and Pad Thai will be on them. But there are much, much better dishes to
be had outside these areas. One issue is they don't all have consistent names,
e.g. when I asked for a recommendation and was given an absolutely amazing dry
curry crab noodle dish with egg, I asked for its name in Thai and translated
it was "curry crab" which would never get you a similar dish in another
restaurant. Even the venerable Pad Kee Mao, which I think is always a noodle
dish in America, is sometimes a totally different rice dish in Thailand.

