
Restore the Fourth - thepumpkin1979
http://www.restorethefourth.net/?s=hn
======
pvnick
Note: This happens _tomorrow_. For HNers that live in the US, please find the
closest protest to where you live and _get out there_! Please stay polite,
dress nicely, and freshen up on your first and fourth amendments.

Edit: Also, call 1-STOP-323-NSA to be connected with your local
congresspeople. You will be given a list of talking points and it's super
easy. Call _today_ (hell, call now), as government offices will be closed
tomorrow.

~~~
coldpie
I'm planning to go tomorrow, but I'm confused why they're doing it on the
fourth. Nobody is going to be in the building we're gathering around. And lots
of people are going to be out of town.

~~~
pvnick
Mostly symbolic reasons (independence day, 4th of july, 4th amendment, etc),
and it'll be nice because everybody will have off from work. There were some
long, drawn out discussions early on in the planning phase from which it was
agreed that July 4th would, in fact, be the best date on which to hold these
protests.

------
anigbrowl
I think what's needed is a 28th amendment that creates an explicit right to
privacy. I think it's pointless to call for 'restoring' the fourth when in
fact it does not work the way most people imagine and never has. Case in
point: there's another thread today about the Post Office logging mail cover
information for law enforcement, and people express surprise that this isn't a
violation of the 4th amendment. Within 5 minutes of looking, I found an _1878_
case (Ex parte Jackson) articulating the view that the contents of the mails
are protected (and require a warrant to open) but that the exterior
information is not.

Perhaps it's because I'm not an American and learned what I know about
American law by reading it cold rather than growing up within a web of
assumptions about it, but it seems obvious to me that 4th amendment
protections are actually fairly narrow, because it allows for all sorts of
_reasonable_ searches and seizures.

The fact is that as Americans you don't have a proper constitutional guarantee
of privacy. You have a half-assed one that was semi-invented by a liberal
court in the 1960s in what even liberal legal scholars consider to be an
embarrassing example of judicial overreach - and this is why the right wing in
America has never been able to accept _Roe v Wade_. The US needs a proper and
explicit right to privacy, not one that was discovered in the penumbrae of
other amendments and which could easily be lost there again, and not one that
is subject to first amendment attacks (the usual argument of junk/bulk mail
senders).

~~~
mpyne
And after we do that we still need to establish some kind of bilateral
framework with the E.U. about what types of privacy non-USPERs will have....
somehow I don't see a 28th Amendment that explicitly gives the whole rest of
the world the same strong privacy rights as Americans as being politically
feasible, so there would _still_ be that disparity.

------
sinak
A quick note that this new version of the site was designed and launched by
the Rapid Internet Task Force [1] in response to a request from Rt4 yesterday.

Thanks to everyone who's helped so far to make it! It's been really awe
inspiring to have over 20 people come and figure out both server scaling and a
new frontend for the site over the course of about 24 hours.

We're working on new event pages at the moment: they should be online in the
next couple of hours.

If you're interested in helping with projects like this, sign up below. And
please do call 1-STOP-323-NSA to tell Congress to stop surveillance.

[1] [http://sina.is/task-force](http://sina.is/task-force)

~~~
Hario
Also quick note to point out that Sinak has been doing stellar work as a
designer, backend engineer, and leader throughout this.

Props to you for gathering us together, Sina.

~~~
bobwaycott
Absolutely.

------
dllthomas
There's been much talk about this, but here's the EFF's take:
[https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/07/restore-fourth-
campaig...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/07/restore-fourth-campaign-
organizes-protests-against-unconstitutional-surveillance)

Long story short: GO! DRAG OTHERS!

------
Geee
As a non-US person I couldn't care less about the US constitution, and this
whole thing goes to show that Americans really don't care about us either. How
about trying to honor just a little bit the Universal Declaration of Human
Rights, specifically the Article 12?

~~~
xradionut
We do care, it's just that we are cynical about real change that actually
makes a difference for the populous at large. Any course of action won't have
results or will have bad results.

------
robomartin
The unfortunate reality today is that we are living in a country where you
really have to be afraid of the consequences of exercising your Constitutional
right of free speech and assembly.

I never thought I'd have this thoughts in the US. Never. We often referred to
banana republic dictatorships enslaving their people. Never in the US, right?

Today you have to be afraid to stick your neck out because the government is
watching and recording as much of your life as possible. And there's a
likelihood they will use what they have on you to exercise their ability to
take revenge against anything you say or do, legality and constitutionality be
damned. What the IRS did to Tea Party groups is probably just the tip of a
very large iceberg.

The uncomfortable reality is that the only peaceful way to fix the problem is
to expose yourself to the potential of government retaliation by, ironically,
exercising your right to free speech and assembly.

And so we have to participate in these demonstrations with full acceptance of
the potential risks.

Ultimately it will boil down to the political process. And that means really
giving our reality some thought when it comes time to choose your
representatives.

If you are a hard-core Liberal it is time you wake up and realize the monster
your party has created. They are intent in growing government and taking
control over as much of your life as possible. Time to apply the same passion
and energy you had in voting-in Obama to let him know that this has to stop.

If you are a hard-core Republican and keep voting-in these religious assholes
bent on world domination and delusional social control (gays, abortion, etc.).
Wake up and think. You are just as guilty as Liberals of voting as a tribe
rather than as an independent thinker.

If you are a Libertarian, wake up and make sure other's understand why this is
the best path forward for our country. Less government. Less intrusion. Less
control. More freedom.

THIS IS NOT THE COUNTRY WE WANT TO LEAVE TO OUR CHILDREN.

Think about that for a moment. Don't be so fucking selfish.

They, the government, politicians, agencies, work for us. They don't own us.

I still believe we can fix this within the legal and political framework
already in place. Next election be very careful about who you vote for. Don't
fall pray to pandering. We need adults in the room who can fix problems and
stop us form sliding into the abyss.

The problems are tough and not everyone is going to get their freebies. Don't
let them pander to your needs or to your group (religious, union, whatever)
and buy your votes. Every fucked South American regime has a foundation in
buying popular votes by pandering, giveaways and pitting the masses against
intellectual or business leaders. If you want the US to be like them, continue
voting like sheep. If you don't, let the ruling class know it. They work for
us. They do not get to do as they please with our country.

Think.

~~~
tptacek
_I never thought I 'd have this thoughts in the US. Never._

You need to read more books. Start with something about coal mine strikes, or
the general history of the labor rights movement.

The reality is, nobody is going to shoot you and your friends in the head for
marching around chanting about NSA surveillance. They won't even point
firehoses at you, or sic dogs on you. You are freer than Americans have been
at virtually any other point in our country's history.

~~~
jamieb
"Freer"? The number of citizens in prison has vastly accelerated in the last
20 years [1]. This alone is proof that we are not freer. No need to shoot
someone in the head when you can throw them in jail for a joke on facebook
[2], and best of all, hand the bill back to taxpayers.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_Sta...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States)

[2]
[http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/07/03/198129...](http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/07/03/198129617/teen-
jailed-for-facebook-comment-reportedly-beat-up-behind-bars)

~~~
pharrington
That kid doesn't deserve what happened to him. That being said, what do you
think the response should be for publicly threatening to kill school children?
Remember, threats of violence have never been protected speech.

~~~
jlgreco
His statements were _plainly_ nothing of the sort.

~~~
pharrington
Yeah, but thats the weird thing. Sarcasm is obvious, until it isn't. In 2013,
is it reasonable to systematically ignore someone who says "i think imma shoot
up a kindergarten?" I guess what I'm asking is what's the criteria you and I
are using to determine he wasn't serious? I _intuitively_ know he almost
certainly wasn't going to act on that statement, but assuming I'm a law
enforcement officer, how do I justify ignoring it?

~~~
jlgreco
The sarcasm was obvious from the comment alone, the sarcasm was doubly obvious
when the statement is taken in the correct context, and the sarcasm is
_particularly_ obvious _since the kid fucking said he was joking_.

Discretion and basic human intelligence is a _vital_ part of the system, and
in that case it is not being used.

~~~
tptacek
Hey, just so I don't get lumped in here: the Facebook felony charge thing is a
travesty.

~~~
angersock
Good man.

------
dclowd9901
I know it's a bit on the nose to point it out, but sort of poetic how all of
this fourth amendment business ended up coinciding with the Fourth of July
independence celebrations.

~~~
loceng
Quite sure it was purposeful. People will be going out in crowds anyway, so
any who are clueless and don't really feel its an issue may be disrupted by
those who protest, and hopefully learn something about what's going on.

------
ndesaulniers
Did hearing the President say "I think it’s important to recognize that you
can’t have 100 per cent security and also then have 100 per cent privacy and
zero inconvenience" bum you out? Would you like the NSA to go back to the
drawing board on providing security and privacy? Are you ashamed that people
around the world have lost trust in American institutions, particularly
businesses with online presence? Do you wish the greater American population
better understood what liberties they are giving up to stop the seemingly
unending, spreading threat of terrorism?

Join us, this 4th of July! The Restore the Fourth movement is holding a
peaceful protest in San Francisco. We plan to meet at UN Plaza at 11. Bring
water and patriotism. Hopefully together we can raise awareness for the issue.

Feel free to contact me, I'm sure I forgot a bunch of stuff. See you on the
streets!

------
jdp23
There's a roundup of the recent press about Restore the Fourth at
[http://getfisaright.wordpress.com/2013/07/03/restorethe4th-c...](http://getfisaright.wordpress.com/2013/07/03/restorethe4th-
coverage-roundup/)

------
kcorbitt
I'll be at the Utah event, conveniently located directly in front of the new
NSA data center. There have been reports that people who stop for pictures
have been asked firmly to keep moving -- it'll be interesting to see how a
demonstration plays out.

------
donohoe
I'm hoping to take the kids to this one - Union Square in NYC.

On a separate note I have a browser extension that people run on the Facebook
sight. It will be reminding people of NSA coverage through the July 4th and
long weekend.

Just a simple PSA

~~~
bendoernberg
What a great idea!

------
gobengo
Keeping the site up yesterday was the first project for [http://sina.is/task-
force/](http://sina.is/task-force/)

------
dllthomas
The SF event was fantastic, and I am proud to have been a part. Even in the
face of the BART strike, we had a reasonable turnout.

One thing that was going through my head during the march: much ado has been
made about Obama's statement that "you can't have 100% security and also have
100% privacy." I think it deserves rebuttal, but a more careful one than a
simple statement that it is false. It is not false; if Obama had stopped
before the "and" it would have still been true: you can't have 100% security.
What bothers me about it is that it ignores the fact that liberty itself -
while valuable in its own right - is also an essential part _of_ security
against some threats. It is also unreasonable that "there are tradeoffs" be
used as an excuse to avoid discussion of whether the decisions being made are
appropriate.

------
bendoernberg
You can also help the cause by putting the Internet Defense League's "For
Freedom" code on your website
[http://members.internetdefenseleague.org/](http://members.internetdefenseleague.org/)

------
trekky1700
While we're at it, we should also stand up for the second amendment just for
shits and giggles. Invite all the NRA guys over and we'll have a "protect the
two hundred year old amendments that were created with no knowledge of future
advances/changes in technology/society while keeping to a paranoid delusion
that the government not only cares, but is obsessed with and watches the small
unimportant happenings of our day-to-day lives" party. I'll bring the aluminum
caps.

~~~
lukifer
Obviously it's not about your day-to-day life. It's about the raw power that
comes knowledge, especially when databased and cross-referenced in perpetuity.

I'll even concede that these programs are being constructed out of genuine
interest in public safety. But what happens when a malicious hacker breaks in?
Or China? Or corrupt insiders start selling blackmail secrets to the highest
bidder? Or the next Nixon is elected?

The 4th exists for a reason, and privacy is only a secondary benefit. What
really matters is preventing concentration of power. And if you don't think
having access to a limitless database on everyone is dangerous, you need to
read up on Sun Tzu.

~~~
trekky1700
If a hacker wants it, will distributing it between Facebook, Microsoft, Google
and Apple really stop them. It wouldn't stop me. With these sites we've been
throwing this information out there for years telling ourselves it's secure,
and when someone finally showed us all what we already knew, everyone started
freaking out like this was news.

We've been throwing paper airplanes off skyscrapers while yelling at people
not to look at them for years. This isn't even someone looking, this is
somewhere between someone grabbing all of the paper airplanes and putting them
in a huge disorganized room full of trillions of other paper airplanes and
someone being able to look at the paper airplane if they get permission from a
third party that always says yes.

Either way, do you trust Google, Apple and Facebook more with this than the
government? What does happen in any of those worst case scenarios? The Chinese
find out you like George Takei on Facebook and occasionally stock your ex? The
next Nixon finds out you own an iPhone and have some great iCloud photos?
Corrupt insiders try to blackmail you for secretly watching that One Direction
music video on YouTube a few dozen times?

I think more than anything I'm just pissy because what used to be a cool
avenue for tech/startup news has become this weird, paranoid community
obsessed with Big Brother watching them. Every day I feel more like I'm
checking NRA news than Hacker News. It's really depressing.

~~~
zero_intp
Ultimately our ability to create new and exciting things is governed by the
political and economic power we wield. It is without any doubt that the
current events have created a situation where we sacrifice our commercial
stake in 'internet leadership' globally for the sake of short term
intelligence gains.

The financial machinery of the intelligence community has co-opted the
political power structure of the nation. The freedom to speak publicly without
asymmetric authoritarian consequence does not exist, if it ever did.

Thus, to focus on tech and start ups, the environment needs to be less toxic.

~~~
trekky1700
No it doesn't. The environment hasn't changed, we just know more about it.
Nothing has changed, this behaviour didn't start when we learned about it.
It's been going on for years without anyone noticing. The freedoms are the
same, the actual state of everything is the same. You just now know that the
US government has the ability to get your Facebook info on demand. This news
is all so unsurprising it's hardly news worthy.

------
jmhamel
I know this is beside the point of the site, but I have to comment about how
eye-catching the design is.

Did you have any specific inspiration, or resources that I could read that you
used for the design?

------
dllthomas
Also: write, call, or visit your local representatives and invite them.
Whether they go in person or send someone, whether to participate or to talk,
engagement there could be valuable.

------
Kiro
I think this protest would get more international attention if it didn't focus
on the amendments. In my country most people can't cite a single thing from
our supreme law so we can't really relate to the obsession with the
constitution.

~~~
wavefunction
The 4th of July is the US celebration of independence from Great Britain. It
is the celebration of the freedoms that many of our countrymen have fought and
died for.

The "4th" also refers to the 4th Amendment to the Constitution of the United
States of America which holds that (any) People should be free in their papers
and effects from unreasonable searches (spying) by their Government. We are
taught that these are not rights granted by a god, or by consent, or by a
monarch, but are rights inherent for all people whether they live in America
or not. They are natural rights, like the right to happiness and to pursue
your life without harming others.

I am sorry if it seems like this is a very American-centric protest, but it is
up to Americans to change our government for the better. We have too many of
our fellow countrymen who misinterpret or disregard the Constitution, and it
is up to us to remind them what so many great men and women died for.

------
boi_v2
Streets, there is no better place to protest and wake people up. We've got to
fight this, the world can't keep going in this extremely dangerous direction.

------
tokenadult
I looked it up, and see that my family could conveniently participate in one
of the Restore the Fourth protests. So I just talked to my wife about it, and
that is our plan for celebrating the Fourth of July ("Independence Day" is the
holiday's official name) this year. What could be more American as a way to
celebrate America than to participate in a public protest?

By the way, our friends in Taiwan, which now enjoys freedom of the press after
people power pushed out a dicatorial regime, have produced one of those funny
animated news videos

[http://youtu.be/hjItu4SchJU](http://youtu.be/hjItu4SchJU)

urging viewers to participate in the Restore the Fourth protests. This is why
I am glad I participated in Taiwan's democracy movement[1], and why I continue
to support China's democracy movement. What goes around comes around.
Democracy can never have too many friends. Freedom is something for all of
humankind to share and to defend and to cherish.

[1] The dictatorship in power in Taiwan when I first lived there eventually
fell, after a largely peaceful people power revolution that forced a
transformation to an open political system. In the years leading up to that
transformation, people I know personally were imprisoned for leading peaceful
protests urging free and fair elections and a stop to censorship. (For
example, the father of one of my wife's high school classmates was in prison
while they were in high school. The classmate is now the godmother of my son
who was born in Taiwan.) Most people don't have the courage to go to prison--
especially prisons like those in Taiwan at the time. But courage is what it
takes to undermine a dictatorship. A successful movement for greater freedom
requires great courage, and a degree of social trust among the movement
participants that is not easy to find. Allow me to repeat advice I have shared
here on Hacker News before. If you really want to be an idealistic but hard-
headed freedom-fighter, mobilizing an effective popular movement for more
freedom wherever you live, I suggest you read deeply in the free, downloadable
publications of the Albert Einstein Institution,

[http://www.aeinstein.org/organizationsde07.html](http://www.aeinstein.org/organizationsde07.html)

remembering that the transition from dictatorship to democracy described in
those publications is an actual historical process with recent examples around
the world that we can all learn from. You can find publications in Arabic,
Azeri, Belarusian, Burmese, Burma (Chin), Burma (Jing-paw), Burma (Karen),
Burma (Mon), Chinese (Mandarin), Dutch, English, Estonian, Farsi, French,
German, Hebrew, Indonesian, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Kyrgyz, Latvian,
Lithuanian, Macedonian, Norwegian, Portuguese, Russian, Serbian, Spanish,
Thai, Tibetan, and Ukrainian there to share with your friends around the
world.

------
yaddayadda
I find it ironic that they are using Facebook[1] (among others) to protest the
"... right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..."

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Facebook](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Facebook)

~~~
wavefunction
The population of Facebook is exactly the sort of people that need this sort
of outreach. It makes perfect sense to have a resource there, especially since
some people's entire Internet usage centers only around Facebook.

------
Helpful_Bunny
You're all part of the show[1]. ( _Would You Kindly Remember Which Tech Teams
Ran the Obama Campaign_? And their connection to Reddit?)

You have no idea how predatory you need to be to face Power down, and a
sponsored Face Book / Reddit protest is _not_ your friend. $100k donations -
to whom? People forging careers in Social Media Shaping (or as us old timers
like to call it, propaganda[2]) and so on?

This is a serious warning (and I fully expect a ban, or "down votes" for this,
given the political alignment of HN): you need to be hard, sharp, fast,
ruthless and enjoy blood sports to get into this game.

I suspect most of you are not: and the people "running" this campaign via
Reddit / Face Book are _really not your friends_ [3].

And since we are living in a time where a Face Book "threat" from a teenager
can get you prison time, I'll merely give you a quotation from a science
FICTION novel (not even a real political theorist, they're dangerous / now
under the "banned" list in America):

 _" The personal, as everyone’s so fucking fond of saying, is political. So if
some idiot politician, some power player, tries to execute policies that harm
you or those you care about, take it personally. Get angry. The Machinery of
Justice will not serve you here – it is slow and cold, and it is theirs,
hardware and soft-. Only the little people suffer at the hands of Justice; the
creatures of power slide from under it with a wink and a grin. If you want
justice, you will have to claw it from them. Make it personal. Do as much
damage as you can. Get your message across. That way, you stand a better
chance of being taken seriously next time. Of being considered dangerous. And
make no mistake about this: being taken seriously, being considered dangerous
marks the difference - the only difference in their eyes - between players and
little people. Players they will make deals with. Little people they
liquidate. And time and again they cream your liquidation, your displacement,
your torture and brutal execution with the ultimate insult that it’s just
business, it’s politics, it’s the way of the world, it’s a tough life and that
it’s nothing personal. Well, fuck them. Make it personal.”_ ~ Altered Carbon,
Richard Morgan.

[1][https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQEDojPZ7YI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQEDojPZ7YI)
[2][http://www.propagandatheory.com/history-of-
propaganda/french...](http://www.propagandatheory.com/history-of-
propaganda/french-revolution/propaganda-of-the-french-revolution-satire-from-
england)
[3][https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4pIXQvxMeA&list=PLA62577633...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4pIXQvxMeA&list=PLA62577633C7A7089)

~~~
bendoernberg
I'm co-organizing the NYC group, and I've been on the national conference
calls for the past few days. Can't speak for others, but I'd be happy to sit
down with you or anyone else and talk about what we're doing, what the goals
are, and assure you that I'm not a shadowy social media shaper.

~~~
Helpful_Bunny
If you're operating in NYC, what is your strategy visa vie NYPD and the
$150,000,000 Wall St. TIA system in place[1] [and no, don't attempt to
discredit the source, I simply will not post the sensitive documents /
location pictures on HN of all places]

Do you have a permit?

Are you aware of the surveillance you'll be under, and have you informed all
participants that they will be logged into a surveillance system?

Are you aware that all of your correspondence has already been logged,
monitored and Gold / Silver / Bronze Police teams are now running models to
negate your impact? [run a search on the papers if you need to understand how
modern policing works, the USA is a bit tight-arsed about it, look for the EU
white papers, they're much more accessible without being illegal]

Are you aware that traffic and city wide electronic signals will be modified
throughout your "march" to control flows?

And so on. If the answer to any of these is "no", then you need to _Wise The
Fuck Up_.

Predators don't play nice.

There's a reason they get to be on balconies with champagne laughing at you,
and it isn't "luck". It's called _home-game-advantage_ and _owning-the-Power-
Structures_.

If you're unaware of _any_ of this, you're dog-food. And the Police certainly
_are_ the dogs here.

Bottom line: _No one important gives a FUCK about your 4th amendment rights_.
And that's just the truth of it. [Hint: MLK, see what happened to him, and
that was a _long time ago_ , "bro"]

[1][http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/02/06/wall-streets-
secret-s...](http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/02/06/wall-streets-secret-spy-
center-run-for-the-1-by-nypd/)

~~~
Helpful_Bunny
antoko, sorry, I can't reply to you.

The answer to that is, of course: _that is why you 'll fail, that is why
they'll ignore you, and that is why this is all a joke._

Thanks for making the point so clear.

Might want to study history, dear, and learn just how hard-core "the people"
had to be to gain any kind of Power. The fact you think that Power _respects_
your protest is why you won't ever be a "player".

Have fun on your little protest, I'm sure you know what you're doing. (Which
is precisely: nothing). And, here's a tip: you might want to listen when a
_predator_ tells you why you're going to fail, they might have some experience
you don't. Ask the Egyptians, if you think that was a popular revolt, you need
some _serious edumacation_ [hint: IMF / Egyptian Military / Economics, do some
research already. The World is not a nice place, and it doesn't respect people
who don't know the Rules]

I'm out, trix are for kidz.

~~~
Helpful_Bunny
And... this is the second thread where the "down vote" ability has been
abused. A user (with enough "karma" to allow them multiple negative "down
votes" has nuked my content, and _not bothered to respond to any of it_ ).
Hmm, and I naively imagined HN was "moderated" (spoiler: it is, just not how
you think it is, and no, I'm really _not_ that naive to imagine a scaled
populist voting system isn't gamed to the max - we did this in voting polls in
the 1950's).

Now, you might have noticed I'm not naive, but it does show one thing: Whoever
is using their "precious HN karma" to down vote my comments, without ever
bothering to argue with them, proves the model doesn't work. [It was logged -
the same user mass-spammed the "down vote" on all of my posts in this thread
within 72 seconds, much like they did in the last one]

Predators: you're being run by autistic ((blinkered)) agents who don't even
realize the #1 rule of Agitprop: The Streisand effect[1].

Hint: this reaction was priced into the effort to reply to HN. As a predator,
if I got the reaction, it was a trigger to say: " _Prey_ ". If you ain't
seeing the obvious yet, you ain't playing the Game. [And, no doubt - I'd
imagine that within X hours my account will be unable to post, either through
"negative karma" or "hell banning". While you can read it, work out the
politics of it].

Be Seeing You. (Amateurs). And seriously: if your ability to run Propaganda is
limited to a "down vote" button, you're not in the running. But, feel free:
KONY2012! You might recognize this model from other parts of the web. (And
yes: We See You Down Voting).

Bottom line: if you're "down voting" my content, you're either a mark or an
extremely naive bottom rung player. Enjoy working out which one you are. Top
tip: the real players don't give a flying fuck if you know what they're doing,
_they just don 't care_, as long as you can't provide evidence of individual
crimes. You. Just. Do. Not. Matter. To. The. Higher. Meat. Eaters. Fucking
deal with it. (Down Vote if you think you do!!11!11! Please, I need +1 likes
on Face Book!!).

Be Seeing You. Rule #1: Life is cheap - the myth of America is that
300,000,000 of you are precious. Spoiler: 295,000,000 of you ain't. Cry me a
fucking river, you're food. (And if you think that's harsh, look around a
little. Sorry, it's true.)

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect)

~~~
tehwebguy
This place is great for coherent discussion, nearly all ideas are "allowed"
here when argued well but hostility is not.

~~~
Helpful_Bunny
The first two comments I made were "down voted" within seconds.

Your argument is invalid.

p.s. Today's analysis of the "protests" and even the flaccid NSA "approval" of
them on their website shows you _exactly_ where this movement came from.
Spoiler: I told you that HN / Reddit were far more gamma- than Advanced
Publications let on, didn't I?

