
India students caught 'cheating' in exams in Bihar - mohanrajn84
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-31960557
======
eitally
The problem is that if you have 1.4 million people to compete against in your
state and you _know_ the authorities don't really care if you cheat, then you
absolutely have an incentive to cheat. This is a political & cultural problem,
but is absolutely solvable.

In my graduate program (~60 people) at a top tier US engineering school, about
10% were Chinese, 80% Indian, and 10% American. The Indians did all their work
as a big team, and it didn't matter whether it was homework, quizzes,
projects, tests, or even their theses. They didn't consider it cheating at
all, even though it absolutely was (except the homework, where partnership was
usually encouraged). Everyone else _knew_ they were cheating, but in the
absence of professors willing to confront the problem, what is an honest
student to do? Do you maintain your integrity at the risk of lower grades, or
do you cheat, too, and ensure a high GPA?

~~~
JustSomeNobody
I'm not clear on how what the Indians are doing affects the GPA of the Chinese
or Americans in your example. Do they blow the curve, maybe?

Also, Americans tend to put individual before group. I wonder if your example
isn't so much cheating as a difference in culture.

~~~
rayiner
It undermines the moral fabric of the society. It's not a coincidence that in
India (or Bangladesh, where My family is from), you have to bribe someone to
get your phone hooked up.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Ok, but I still am not clear about how this would affect the GPA of students
who don't cheat.

~~~
rhino369
Either because it is graded on a curve or because graduates are judged based
on GPA. If you earned a fair and square 3.5 and a bunch of people cheated
their way to a 3.7 you have a devalued 3.5.

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shubhamjain
The whole Indian Education system reeks with strong attitude towards just
getting grades & marks, discourages any innovative / critical thinking and to
be honest, it is completely hopeless. The higher you climb, the more messed up
it is. If any qualified person would be there to make the examination papers
and to check them, in most of the engineering colleges here, I doubt even 20%
would make it till the end. The questions are repetitive, quite general and
purposely unspecific.

People buy reports, seminars, projects because they find it impossible to make
it on their own. Cheating with so common and ingrained that it is something to
boast about and not frowned upon by anyone, in fact, an average student
believes that he has a moral right to cheat. Even the IITs which produce the
smartest bunch are able to attract the smartest because of their 'brand' and
not because of any intrinsic value they provide. The same story of typical
Indian college applies to them.

The good news is, no of startups that are actually interested in someone's
talent have grown in past few years. Someone like me, who found their 'path'
through Internet, is lucky to be part of one of them. :)

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GordonS
On a much different scale, but an Indian outsourcing firm we do business with
(Capgemini) gives our interview questions to subsequent candidates. Sometimes
it's evident they are trying desperately to Google for answers during
telephone interviews, and I've even noticed that there is sometimes someone
else there feeding them with answers!

~~~
driverdan
Why do you continue to work with them?

~~~
GordonS
I don't have a choice. I've previously had much more successful engagements
with companies in China and India, so would gladly change if it was up to me.

However, I work in a large organisation, and even if my direct manager agrees
with me, those above him honestly couldn't give a shit what we think.

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nish1500
Not sure if relevant, but when I was in 10th Grade, the teachers helped all of
us in the exams. They didn't want to tarnish the image of the school by having
a low-pass result.

Yes, India.

~~~
triangleman
This can happen anywhere. I remember my old high school math teacher helping
the star math pupil get a higher score on the AIME[1] and then again on the
IMO[2]. The student was suspected of cheating and, thankfully, given a second
chance to take the exam again (don't remember which one) without the teacher
present.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Invitational_Mathemati...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Invitational_Mathematics_Examination)
[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Mathematical_Olym...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Mathematical_Olympiad)

~~~
howling
How does one cheat in IMO? Is your high school teacher your country's IMO team
leader?

~~~
triangleman
Maybe it was a qualifying test? I don't know, it was held in the school.

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1971genocide
Its sometimes amazing when I see other indian student ( being from south asia
myself ) outsource their report writing back home from university in england.

Sometimes I sit in lectures and the the person besides me have 5+ years
experience working in IT with a bachelors from India competing with 18-19 year
old people.

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chdir
That picture of students hanging from the windows of exam hall is hilarious
and sad. Though it is not representational of India on the whole. The state of
Bihar has been notorious when it comes to 'cheating' in exams (besides
heightened levels of crimes in every other field).

The title of the article leaves a bad taste in the mouth. The premier
universities in India have a much more robust system of conducting exams. More
than a decade ago, the exam paper was supposedly leaked before the exam. The
exam, which is conducted all over India, was cancelled and re-conducted. That
was quite a feat.

However, on the -ve side, there are political leaders who have encouraged
'cheating' by abolishing laws against such acts.

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kamaal
Smaller depiction of a larger malaise. Indian education system is simply the
tip of the ice berg. The government and educational systems are just the small
front face of corruption, that is in the Indian society today. The corruption
you see in the form of exchange of money is minuscule when compared to moral
corruption which has infected everyone here.

Unfortunately you are likely to face far more worse kind of corruption even at
workplaces, even in Multi national corporations in India. Religious,
linguistic and regional politics is very common. If you are really hard
working and productive, expect yourself to be exploited. You will go on
working only to find worthless people get promoted and rewarded. Every single
section of the India society is simply looking for a easy way to get ahead
even if that means blatantly cheating your way through. Given these
circumstances its hardly surprising why good people just want to move out
settle outside India.

~~~
kopter
Yup, and it only makes it that much harder for Indian students who want to
separate themselves from the herd and try to be honest hard-working
individuals.

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gnufied
As someone from Bihar, there is a pattern to this cheating. Certain years, the
Govt. decides to clamp down hard and exams happen under Election like security
and certain years you have free for all cheating.

Also Bihar has a very small number of engineering colleges (like 9-10 compared
to almost 300 in Tamilnadu), so in my experience people who cheat; tend to
filter out themselves, because people have to compete hard for engineering
entrance examinations (like IIT-JEE/AIEEE). My point is - by and large, it
wouldn't be fair to paint a average engineer from Bihar by same brushstroke
(of course, this is bit self-serving because I happen to have same
background).

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m0skit0
IMHO the real problem here since a long time is that exams have been
demonstrated to be flawed. You can pass an exam and have no idea on the
subject. The whole system is flawed, we need a new education system.

~~~
macspoofing
Uh huh. Like what?

~~~
spain
If he knew he would have probably mentioned it.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Unless he's currently writing the patent documents for it.

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NamTaf
This analogue is seen through any sort of MOOC that you do. Register for one
(especially programming/maths/science-related) and google some of the homework
questions. There's heaps of sites where straight answers are given (as in,
multichoice options to a question, no explanation).

For some, that seems to be worth their time. I don't even understand.

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Jabbles
This problem is certainly not unique to India.
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1013239...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/10132391/Riot-
after-Chinese-teachers-try-to-stop-pupils-cheating.html)

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arkentos
This is shocking even as a Indian. In a place where scoring high rather than
learning is of prime importance, this is not unbelievable. But parents helping
out, this is all-out crazy level.

~~~
gnufied
Bihar like few other north indian states have heavy male dominance. About 90%
of relatives I know, want their daughters to finish Matriculation and get
married.

The point is - parents put such little emphasis on education of their
daughters that girls learn very little in terms of real knowledge by the time
- they have to write board exams. Now it is very important to be at least
class 10th pass for getting married, so parents put all resources they can to
get them to pass (which includes cheating).

Having said that, both boys and girls cheat of course. But from my experience
- the society makes it damn hard for girls to excel academically. They have to
help with house chores - cooking, cleaning and often are encouraged by parents
to skip classes for doing stuff at home.

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jqm
You can cheat on exams, but you can't cheat when it comes to to produce. You
either do, or you don't do it.

It's like stealing. You might get by doing it, a few people might get by, but
everyone can't steal for a living. Somewhere, someone has to be making the
things that are stolen. And somewhere, someone has to have ideas and knowledge
and drive to implement solutions. Everyone can't simply bullshit their way
through life. But some people never figure this out.

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ruppy
I read some of the comments here that attribute the problem to the lack of
resources or the communal good. I respectfully disagree. The main problem in
India is the outdated system.

Most Indian kids have plenty of resources available to them and most parents
in India would go hungry as compared to not provide the needed educational
resources that were needed by the kids. Also, most Indian kids are super
competitive and they have to be when their parents are always asking their
rank in class.

Having said that, I don't think it really matters over the long term.

Here is my personal experience:

Growing up in India, cheating was not only accepted but encouraged. I did my
high school in India and during the big board exams, I was one of very few
students who didn't cheat - out of 200. Why? My dad (and some of the other
parents) told us that if we cheated, they will kill us. During the exams, the
teachers that were proctoring the exam came up to us repeatedly and asked if
we needed help and trust me, it was tempting because you don't want to fall
behind someone who is cheating.

There were and are a few factors at play. One is the emphasis on year-end
exams. They are the only means of determining the students' performance. No
papers to write, no projects, nothing else. Teachers are rated only on the
success of their students in these year-end exams. Competition is very high.
Parents (admittedly not all) are willing to do anything to help their kids get
ahead. If you go to a school during exam time, very often you will see parents
standing outside trying to pass notes through windows etc. I have heard of
people who hid phones under their turbans in the exams and all kind of other
crazy stories.

Now, here is why I don't think it matters. In the short term cheaters scored
better but in the longer run, the few of us that didn't cheat came out ahead
(small community so I know most of the people and where they are now). In
hindsight, I am very glad that my dad didn't allow me to cheat. After that
experience, I went to undergrad and grad school in the US and I did see
cheating - Indians, Chinese, Americans - everyone cheated, some more blatantly
than the others.

It didn't bother me because I strongly believed that in the longer terms those
that didn't (and don't) cheat will come out ahead. So far, I haven't seen
anything that has disproved that hypothesis.

------
andreash
I don't understand exactly how this cheating method work? How do the students
communicate with the people outside?

~~~
frade33
Shortly after you receive the question paper, the question paper is sent to
people outside, either through windows you can see, or by taking 'pee break'.
after which they prepare answers and deliver them through windows, or they
take it from bathrooms, when taking the '2nd pee break'. I have sat in one of
those exams, ;) but it was in Pakistan, nothing dissimilar though. That said,
it was about 10 years ago. Now there are very tough 'restrictions' esp., in
urban areas, but in rural areas I guess this could be still in practice.

But this does not help any of them, because even witin Pakistan, the degree
from the Sindh province (where it is more common), is barely taken seriously,
when applying for the Job.

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nileshtrivedi
600 students have been expelled over this incident:
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/03/20/600-indian-
students-...](http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/03/20/600-indian-students-
expelled-after-footage-shows-parents-scaling-walls-to-pass/?intcmp=trending)

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srameshc
Well let's not generalize the entire Indian education system by looking at
this picture. Cheating during exams is grave offence and I have heard storied
how someone was suspended for an entire year for getting caught cheating. This
is an extreme case.

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monort
If this video is authentic, cheating seems to be one of the lesser problems in
Indian education. Instructors are hitting students:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zfC3kbOlQI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zfC3kbOlQI)

~~~
JustSomeNobody
I got slapped in the face by my 4th grade teacher once. This was back when
schools had windows and so there was this kid bouncing one of those red "kick
ball" balls on a sidewalk right outside my window. I couldn't concentrate on
what I was doing so I got up, went to the window and said some pretty naughty
things. My teacher marched right over and laid her hand across my face. My
father just smiled when he heard about it and told me I got what I deserved. I
was all "yes, ma'am" and "no, ma'am" to her from then on.

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test1235
Is there no-one monitoring the exam inside the room?

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ved_a
Sigh. Unleash the troll.

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actopren
Seems like BBC in a mission to defame India. They also seem to forget the
problems in their country and focus on others.

See this:[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-
news/4...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-
news/45000-caught-cheating-at-britains-universities-7555109.html)

45000 British students caught. Although this article was published in 2012.
Worth noting that, this kind of news are not news at all for BBC.

EDIT: For all the downvoters. You got the right to do it but read this article
starting from here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_BBC#Indophobi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_BBC#Indophobia)

BBC was earlier criticized for being Anti-India, Anti-American, Anti-other
religion stuff.

~~~
icebraining
Not 45000 British students, but 45000 students in British universities.

~~~
actopren
Well its got to match OP's title mate.

~~~
icebraining
The difference being that Britain is well known for having a lot of foreign
students (many universities range 20-40%), so the set of "students in Britain"
is very different from "British students".

The same is not valid for India which, as far as I know, it's not a popular
destination for foreign students looking for an university degree.

~~~
actopren1
Note taken Sir. But I cannot edit the title anymore. Sorry!

