

Ask HN: Early employee salaries for startups in The Netherlands / Europe? - throwaway1

I haven taken a break from my full-time job for a couple of months to develop an app prototype on the iPad for a startup in its initial phase.  My break is coming to an end and we are are pretty happy with each other.<p>I like the work: not just coding but also (with the "server" guy, I'm the "client" guy) selecting technologies, managing features / the project, etc.<p>And they seem to like me and what I, together with the other guy, have accomplished the last two months.<p>Now, I know my weak point is salary negotiations.  There have been a couple of posts about this the last weeks but I also like to have some indications of salaries for the region I live in: De Randstad in The Netherlands.<p>I'll be monitoring this thread and will answer any questions people will have.
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throwaway1
Thanks for the comments so far. I should have said (but can't edit that
anymore) that I'm also interested in what would be a reasonable percentage of
equity to suggest at a meeting.

To expand a little:

\- I'm dutch

\- I don't have to move

\- I have got a wife, kids and a mortgage

\- I've got about 15 - 20 years of experience depending on how you look at it.
Starting with: 68000 assembler, C, C++, Java, JavaScript, web front-end and
back-end, Lisp and now iOS although I'm just getting up to speed with the
latter. I've got Open Source projects on GitHub, a blog I post technical
things to a couple of times per year. I'm pretty up-to-date on technical
things: call me an average HN reader.

I might be giving away too much for a throwaway account now.

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accountoftheday
don't mention wife/kids/mortgage. it is a negative for startup employment
because you are bound to be the first to bail (whether by risk aversion or
necessity) should things ever get tough.

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throwaway1
You have a good point except in my case they are already aware of it since
I've already been working for them for two months (and they even knew before
that time).

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micheljansen
It's rather hard to say and it really depends on the company and your
expertise, but expect from €2500 and up (depending on other benefits) for a
starter position fresh out of college/university. In the Randstad, I would try
to get closer to €3000 out of it, as the cost of living is rather high. Good
luck and veel plezier in Nederland ;)

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wsc981
As a 30 year old iOS developer working in Rotterdam I earn about 43000
annually with a 40 hour work week. I do believe a should be able to get a bit
more, as iOS developers seem quite rare in the Netherlands and I believe lots
of companies are looking for good iOS developers. I should explain I'm not
working in a startup - I would guess in a startup people would generally be
paid worse.

If you understand Dutch, perhaps a good forum to get a better idea what would
be an appropriate salary, you should check out the "Werk & Inkomen" sub forum
of the Dutch technology website Tweakers.net.

See:
[http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_messages/1446515/la...](http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_messages/1446515/last)

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throwaway1
Thanks for the Tweakers link. I had forgotten about that.

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sgalonska
I can tell you how it is in Berlin, Germany. And this is the cheapest city in
Europe. Juniors start at around 40k, seniors about 50k anual salary.

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ido

        Juniors start at around 40k, seniors about 50k 
        annual salary.
    

40k/12 = 3333 euros per month? Or are you using a different calculation?

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jpatte
Most likeky 40k/13 = 3076 euros per month + an extra "bonus" month each year.
Which should give about 2000~2500 euros net per month (depending on the local
taxes) + an equivalent annual bonus.

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ido
40k euro/year would still be a (slightly) above average salary for a beginner
programmer in Vienna, which is significantly wealthier than Berlin, so it
still sounds a bit optimistic to me.

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tluyben2
Here are some really nice jobs; <http://forum.nedlinux.nl/viewforum.php?id=14>
When friends of mine are job hunting they usually do it here because you know
you are going to get a solid tech job for a good ("markt conform" or above)
salary.

Edit:

Interesting projects <http://forum.nedlinux.nl/viewtopic.php?id=31844> (at
least to me). And as far as I have seen, Dutch companies don't _really_ care
if you finished any education; usual text is 'HBO of WO denkniveau' (has to
reason on college level, roughly translated).

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davedx
Could you give a bit more information about your job title and experience?
Also, what sector are you targeting? I've noticed there's lots of financial
sector work in IT in the Randstad which can bump up your salary.

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throwaway1
Since I can't edit the OP I've added some more information in a post:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3442176>

I can't say which sector I'm targeting, sorry.

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JAVagueArgument
I think geographical location makes no difference, because If it were me I
would ask them for what I was currently on. Not take a pay cut, but not expect
an increase either.

With the lack of security in a start up I might also ask for something in my
contract which meant if the product/company were successful I would get
recognition (financial or otherwise) in relation to my contribution.

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alexchamberlain
I can't speak from experience, but how about asking them to match your current
salary and a equity share to account for the risk?

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corkill
I've found two great rules for going into negotiations of any kind: 1\. Know
exactly what you want and state it. 2\. Be prepared to walk away if you don't
get it.

You could also try playing equity vs salary off each other. e.g. I usually
work for $6000 a month, but if you want I could work for $2000 with 30%
equity. Or if you want equity more than salary, I usually work for $10,000 a
month but could do it for $1000 a month and 40% equity.

Numbers above are just random. But the idea is to make the option you really
want seem MUCH more attractive.

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accountoftheday
30-40% equity for a paid employee ... what planet are you from?

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dasil003
> _... what planet are you from?_

Founding-stage planet, presumably.

If someone asked me to work for $1000 or $2000 a month and they weren't
offering high double digit equity I'd laugh in their face. If the company has
funding and momentum then I'd want market salaries which is an order of
magnitude higher. If it's early stage then it depends on what each person is
bringing to the table. An experienced entrepreneur with a relatively
inexperienced engineer should not give that much equity, but for the inverse
30-40% is not unreasonable. If you think this person has the chops to make the
product a reality then put an appropriate vesting clause with cliff and do it.

At the end of the day it's about ROI, not about bogus conventions on how much
"employees" should get.

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tomh-
Based on your very limited background information: 2500-5000 euro/month excl
bonus and other benefits

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Michiel
Have you checked www.intermediair.nl/salariskompas?

