
Show HN: I built a community for women entrepreneurs and makers - mariedm
https://womenmake.com
======
mariedm
Hello HN, today I’m presenting you Women Make. I use to struggle to find
fellow women entrepreneurs so I created a group on Telegram. Since then it
grew to 500+ members. I felt it was time to make a website to go with the
group. Happens I learned Node JS last year, which I used with mongoDB and
Telegram's API to build a forum. Members can interact with the website thanks
to a bot. And here is the result! Let me know what you think, any feedback is
welcome!

~~~
tmaly
Congrats! I am curious, does having 500 people in a single channel present any
challenges?

~~~
mariedm
Actually yes. More people and more activity means more moderation. And I think
it's the time you realize if your foundations are strong enough. Moderation
really is everything, and it's a lot of work to make people understand what
are the values of the community, what is tolerated or not, etc. while making
it welcoming. If you made that clear since the beginning, it's easier to
handle later. And members might actually help you too, they become messengers,
they also represent the community.

------
blowski
What do you not get from, say, Hacker News or StackOverflow that you're trying
to fill with WomenMake? Genuine question, not a snark.

~~~
mariedm
Just the fact that StackOverflow have been accused of not being inclusive at
all is enough to create something else. They also have moderation issues. I’m
trying to keep a high quality standard on Women Make, just like dang and sctb
here with the moderation.

Also, like I said in another comment, women tend to promote themselves/put
themselves in front of others much less. The idea of Women Make is really to
show them they can and they should. So basically it’s giving women confidence,
and the specific support they don’t necessarily get from other places.

~~~
blowski
What could us men do to improve the support they give on sites other than
Women Make? I'm always afraid that my attempt at a supportive gesture will
feel like I'm patronising or mansplaining.

~~~
rectang
One thing I think is key to being a good ally is to work mostly in the
background, to avoid the spotlight unless necessary, and to yield or share it
when possible. Speak less, listen more, _trust_ what you hear and defer to the
judgment of the underrepresented party.

There was a moment in college when I was participating in a Take Back the
Night march, and I was leading the call-and-response chant "What do we want?
Safety! When do we want it? Now!" It felt awkward and wrong. Once I stopped
leading the chant and started participating vigorously in the _response_ of
the call-and-response, it felt right.

~~~
sergiotapia
This comment is incredibly cringy. GP do _not_ think this way. Be careful.

~~~
rectang
What is your actual objection?

------
ralusek
I like the image previews/thumbnails that appear in the threads from the
actual site. I assume you're rendering/screenshotting the site for
mobile/desktop in order to generate the previews.

Is there a particular tool you're using/that you'd recommend? Headless Chrome,
PhantomJS, NightmareJS? Do you just wait an arbitrary amount of time to assume
the necessary visuals have loaded/rendered, or is there a feedback mechanism
to indicate when it's ready to be captured?

~~~
mariedm
Thank you, I'm using webshot-node (which relies on PhantomJS) but I might
actually change. It doesn't always work well. There are different options
(like waiting for the website to respond, or waiting for a specific amount of
time), but even by tweaking those parameters it's not always reliable. I might
give a try to capture-website soon.

~~~
ralusek
Will check those out, thanks.

------
pezo1919
Can you please elaborate how does emphasizing gender difference help women in
business?

Don't get me wrong I do believe it works, I am just curious about the
psychology.

~~~
mariedm
Like I said the first reason why I created Women Make is because I couldn’t
find fellow women makers. There are several reasons for this: women are less
visible in general, and also tend to less promote themselves. Gathering us is
an opportunity to find allies, but also models, people from who you can
inspire from and find the strength to do what you want to do. That being said,
it doesn’t have to be exclusive. I am myself part of several communities, and
most of them are not emphasizing on women. But I’m glad I have a place like
Women Make for certain topics and to know I’m not alone in this.

~~~
pezo1919
I see, thanks.

"People from who you can inspire from" \- do you mean you might have higher
"basic level" of connection with the same sex?

Or are there also topics you can get into?

Seeing im downvoted up there: these are honest curious questions, I want to
understand better how these social things work. And I'd be glad if I could
understand more here, because unfortunately my previous attempts to understand
similar social constructs failed (unfortunately I've been told multiple times
by women that as a man something is not my business at all and I was not even
let understand the nature of the relations.)

~~~
ajiang
If I had to guess, you're not being down voted for intellectual curiosity, but
rather how you frame the question.

There are many ways you could have framed the question, but the way you did
sounds like you're challenging the premise of what OP is trying to do.

Someone built something. If your first response is "Why did you build this
thing?" or in your case "Please elaborate why you think building this thing
helps?" it comes across as being intentionally and unnecessarily negative,
even if perhaps your intent is not to do so.

If you are actually curious, a few similar ways to frame the question:

\- How have you seen your work impact women?

\- What are the most meaningful ways this community has helped your users?

All positive ways of framing the similar "I'm curious how or why this works"
question.

~~~
pezo1919
Okay I see, I am just surprised, because that's why I put that part to the
end:

"Don't get me wrong I do believe it works, I am just curious about the
psychology."

~~~
hackinthebochs
These same questions get asked every time something geared towards women in
tech is presented. At some point it becomes disruptive to continually ask the
same questions and receive the same justifications. Not that I think its the
same people asking, but even well-meaning questions contribute to an
environment that is counter-productive.

~~~
pezo1919
Hm, what is the point? It feels like you're saying it's not my business and I
am not even allowed to understand it. If you know some anwsers please share it
to me and believe me I won't ask it over and over again once I get it.

~~~
chaos_emergent
> If you know some anwsers please share it to me and believe me I won't ask it
> over and over again once I get it.

I think this is part of the issue - the subject of women's business groups and
their psychological efficacy, and at a larger scale women's under-
representation in tech, has been a conversation in cyberspace/meatspace for
several years. At some point, asking the same questions about the premise of a
movement become an affront to the movement itself. You can compare this to
other identity-based movements; asking the question "why are there all-black
congregations? Are those even psychologically beneficial for black people?" or
"why are there gay bars? Do they actually promote well-being for gay people?"
are not questions that people ask (in the part of the world that I'm in)
because those questions seem like non-issues: of course black people want to
feel community with other black people. Of course gay people want to connect
with other gay people. It's perceived as almost rude to ask!

Maybe this has to do with a cultural mismatch. For many, gender politics has
been a frequent conversational topic in their information spheres for many
years. For you, it may have not been. Just a perspective for moving forward.

If you're interested in understanding the female perspective in tech, I would
recommend being a fly on the wall in communities of women:

[https://www.facebook.com/groups/LadiesStormHackathons/](https://www.facebook.com/groups/LadiesStormHackathons/)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/)

And also reading these essays:

[https://www.amazon.com/Men-Explain-Things-Rebecca-Solnit-
ebo...](https://www.amazon.com/Men-Explain-Things-Rebecca-Solnit-
ebook/dp/B00IWGQ8PU)

------
cocochanel
From the site guidelines,

> Don’t mansplain, be respectful and remember to give the floor to women. That
> being said, all members are welcome to participate in all discussions... And
> keep in mind that the purpose of Women Make is to put women at the
> forefront.

Presumably the site is primarily for women, may I suggest perhaps a better
choice of words? Although I find it unfortunate that we have to create a
separate community based on gender, I hope you succeed in creating a positive
community for women.

~~~
mariedm
I'm not English native so copywriting suggestions are more than welcome. How
would you have said it?

~~~
chance_state
By avoiding pejorative, sexist words like "mansplaining".

~~~
dang
Please don't be a jerk on HN. If you have a point beyond just wanting to lash
out, the idea here would be to make it thoughtfully and substantively.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
chance_state
I wasn't being "a jerk". Please read my commenting history to understand that
I'm not a troll or a person who goes out of their way to be mean.

I think the word "mansplaining" is sexist and pejorative.

>If you have a point beyond just wanting to lash out [...]

I read this as, "If you have a [perspective] other than one I agree with
[...]".

Please don't turn hn into a community that just echos opinions you agree with.

~~~
dang
It always feels like the mods are just disagreeing with you. The opposite side
feels the same way.

I described your comment as being a jerk because mariedm asked for copywriting
suggestions, specifically in the context of being a non-native speaker, and
you responded with a polemical smackdown. That's not good-faith discussion.

------
umvi
This may be a dumb question, but I'm assuming this is a women-only community?

~~~
mariedm
It's not a dumb question. I made Women Make open because I think a change is
only possible together (making women and other underrepresented folks more
visible). Which means everyone is welcome, including men, as long as they are
here to empower women.

~~~
newswasboring
what would empowering women entail? Helping them to make stuff, answer there
questions? So does that mean men are not allowed to get questions answered? Or
is it about the community/morality guidelines? Because if its not an
exclusively female forum, I don't understand it's purpose.

~~~
mariedm
A few examples of what it means: answering questions, listening, offering your
help and advice. Men are allowed to ask questions as long as they are
contributing to the community. That being said, Women Make is here to promote
women, and on a moderation level, I will always make sure women are being put
at the forefront.

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
Could you explain a bit more about the specific problems / challenges your
policies (e.g. women-first moderation) are meant to address?

I'm a man working in the tech industry, and I feel like I still don't 100%
understand the concerns or frustrations that motivate a project like yours.
I'd like to better understand where you (and presumably some other women) are
coming from.

~~~
mariedm
Does this comment I posted earlier answers your question?
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22128957](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22128957)

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
Thanks! That comment was helpful. If you don't mind I have some more questions
still:

> Gathering us is an opportunity to find allies, but also models, people from
> who you can inspire from and find the strength to do what you want to do.

IIUC, you're saying that you see value in having (specifically) women as
allies and sources of inspiration / strength. If that's true, why would that
be?

> But I’m glad I have a place like Women Make for certain topics and to know
> I’m not alone in this.

Would you mind sharing a bit about what those topics are?

~~~
mariedm
"What would that be?", what do you mean by that? What I'm trying to say is
that obviously I identify myself better with other women. And I want to be
able to find other women entrepreneurs specifically because we face certain
common issues. I think this comment sums up pretty well what it's like:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22129625](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22129625).

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
Thanks, I hadn't seen that latter comment until you posted the link. That was
very helpful.

I can't tell if your question to me was rhetorical, but I'll try to answer it
just in case you're interested. (Apologies that it's long-winded, I couldn't
find a way to make it brief.)

The comment you linked to includes this: "Would you rather hang out in a
community where everyone fundamentally understands the challenges you face
daily, or one where you have to explain the basic premise of your daily
challenges when you initiate a conversation about them? (Or rather, would you
prefer to hang out in both, or just the latter, since it's not really an
either/or.)"

I understand the appeal of working in a team where, on an interpersonal level,
I can easily and naturally relate to every one of my teammates. And it sounds
like that's the vibe you're going for, IIUC.

When I'm leading a team in the tech industry, part of my job is to remove
obstacles to the team's happiness and productivity. The kind of homogeneity
mentioned above would undoubtedly prevent some of the problems that can arise
in a diverse team. But my job is to make find ways to make a heterogeneous
team happy and productive; turning it into a homogenous team (e.g. all members
being the same sex) isn't an option that I have (or want).

So I'm hoping to understand, in as much detail as you're interested in
sharing, what the factors are that make you more comfortable doing maker work
with women than with men. Because perhaps that knowledge would help me create
a better work environment for everyone on my teams.

~~~
scott_s
What you're missing is that this is not akin to the teams you have lead at
work. Those teams are working towards delivering some product: the team exists
for some outside purpose, and has an exterior goal.

That is entirely different from the community that is being built here. It is
more a _support group_ , and the goal is to enrich the lives of the member of
the group. Support groups tend to be made up of people who have experienced
similar hardships. They do have an exterior goal: try to make others
experiencing that hardship in the wider community less likely. But that goal
is secondary to the primary goal of being a place for people who have had
similar experiences to support each other.

As an aside: when someone has said, "I experience this bad thing," it's bad
form to continually questions them on the dimensions of their experience of
that bad thing. I assume you are doing this in good faith, and haven't thought
about it from this perspective. Since mariedm created an entire community
around this, perhaps a better way of gaining an understanding is to read that
community for a while.

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
> What you're missing is that this is not akin to the teams you have lead at
> work. Those teams are working towards delivering some product: the team
> exists for some outside purpose, and has an exterior goal.

Good call.

> As an aside: when someone has said, "I experience this bad thing," it's bad
> form to continually questions them on the dimensions of their experience of
> that bad thing. I assume you are doing this in good faith, and haven't
> thought about it from this perspective.

It seems I need to find a better way to recognize when a conversation has
gotten into this territory. This could be one of those social-interaction
observations that many find intuitive, but I need to have explained. I'm
genuinely grateful for you pointing this out.

When someone makes a "Show HN" post, I've been assuming that they're
interested in discussing the project's motivation in some depth. I gave some
thought about whether or not I was drilling too far into the motivations, but
I couldn't think of any likely answer that would be too painful to bring up in
a public forum.

I also hoped that phrasing my question as "Would you mind sharing a bit about
what those topics are?" would clearly indicate that I wasn't sure how far down
this topic the author wanted to go, and that I didn't mean to pry. I figured
worst-case scenario, the OP would ignore any questions she felt went too far.

~~~
pezo1919
I totally understand you. I am trying to understand -for hours- what concrete
things might come up over there but I'm still facing walls. I don't get why no
concrete examples live in the whole thread just vague generalizations (to me).

------
theasteve
@mariedm awesome community, curious on what tech stack you used? back end and
front end. Congrats, looking forward to hear about how it goes with this
project.

~~~
cercatrova
I like the site, it's quite fast. Seems to be similar to dev.to in speed and
functionality.

~~~
mariedm
Thank you, but I think dev.to is built with ruby.

------
matt_the_bass
This looks great! I’m not a woman but my daughter will be eventually and she
already likes to make.

Any reason why you chose to build your own vs use existing infrastructure (ie
your own subreddit you moderate, closed facebook group, etc)? I’m not
intending to sound critiquing, I’m interested in learning more about your
insight.

~~~
mariedm
I started with a Telegram group so I was relying on an existing infrastructure
at first. Then when the community got bigger, I thought we needed a website,
as an extension of our private group. I don't think it would have make a lot
of sense to create a new group on another platform like Facebook or Reddit
(since we were already using one).

~~~
matt_the_bass
Good points! Thanks for the reply.

------
supernintendo
Thank you for making this, what you’re doing is so important. I was wondering
if your site is inclusive toward trans women? I didn’t see any mention of it
on your About page so I thought I would ask. Looks great by the way and I’m
excited to see it grow!

~~~
mendelmaleh
Why does it need to be mentioned? If they consider themselves women, isn't
'Women Make' enough?

~~~
fwip
That'd be nice, but there are some women-only spaces that are specifically
hostile to trans women.

~~~
self_awareness
Can you give an example?

~~~
fwip
The Michigan Womyn's Music Festival is a well-known example.

------
joegahona
I have been wondering why "women" is used as an adjective so much these days
-- "women entrepreneurs" \-- rather than the word "female." "Women" as an
adjective has a very 1950s, almost Ralph Kramden-type vibe to it. "Women
drivers" and the like. We wouldn't say "men nurses."

~~~
brockwhittaker
I think people tend to think of "female" as a bit clinical of a term.

------
celticmusic
In case you or anyone else is not aware, there's the FEA (Female Entrepreneur
Association).

[https://femaleentrepreneurassociation.com/](https://femaleentrepreneurassociation.com/)

------
jellicle
General advice for mariedm - be prepared to ban quite a lot of accounts at
their first offense, think about IP bans, email verification, banning proxies,
etc.

If some of the various online communities of, um, hard to pick a term here
that someone won't take offense to, but you probably know what sort of
communities I'm talking about - if they take an interest in your site, you'll
need heavy defense, and quick reactions, to avoid major disruption. Maybe all
comments from newer accounts should go through moderation before being posted?
Or have that as a switch that can be turned on when the attacks happen?

Good luck.

------
maps7
In my city I see women conferences, in my work I see women events and women
supporting each other and on the internet I see women communities. I am a man
but don't think of myself as a man more than as a person. This thought process
is a privilege of course but I do end up feeling left out.

------
jhow15
Fantastic Marie! The website is very sleek + nice, and the community itself
looks awesome.

------
goblin89
Gender-segregated communities seem like a mixed bag.

On one hand, like the single-sex schools of yore, they may provide an
opportunity for disadvantaged who can’t access “mainstream” communities.

On the other hand, their existence appears contrary to the general inclusivity
trend, and if “mainstream” communities as a result acquire an excuse to be
implicitly pro-male (since there are female communities, and explicitly male
communities are considered unacceptable) then it must suck for those who do
not strongly identify with either female or male gender.

It is hard to admit that our society really is still at a stage where gender
exclusivity is necessary—but, given the number of female-only communities, it
must be the case.

~~~
throwaway91733
VCs hit on women, and as a rule also do not give women money - the numbers
quoted in this article are 2.2%:
[https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/change-
har...](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/change-harassment-
silicon-valley-change-law/597373/)

I will never try to get VC funding because it's just not worth the time
investment for those odds. Therefore I welcome communities for women
entrepreneurs because we unfortunately on average must have different game
plans compared to men.

We also have to deal with different BS, such as employees hitting on us.
Fortunately this has not happened with me with any customers yet. I put forth
effort to avoid that.

------
frereubu
Honestly, some of the comments here (if you show dead ones) just prove the
need for a community like this.

@mariedm - congrats! Love the design.

Edit: One suggestion - a personal peeve is when a site flashes up a
"subscribe" modal when I've only been on the site for a few seconds. Not sure
what the conversions are like on that, but personally I'd be more likely to do
that if I'd had a chance to look around.

~~~
mariedm
Thank you. And you're right. I implemented this popup and wanted to change the
timing because I also think it's too fast to appear. I just didn't take care
of it yet.

~~~
GuB-42
Ooh, I hate these. Maybe I hate these even more than the ones that appear
immediately.

I don't know how most people react to these popups. I think there are stats
since I guess that people who put these on their websites also put all sorts
of trackers, but for me, it is often a signal to simply close the tab and
never come back.

The reason is that it completely breaks my focus. I am reading an article,
browsing stuff, and find it interesting. Then the popup pops. Now, I am
distracted and start to think. Is it that interesting? What am I doing here?
Then tell myself I have better things to do than stay on a website with
aggressive popups.

And if the content really is good, I will just close the popup and continue
reading. I mean, I am in the middle of a good article right now, I have better
things to do than filling some form.

Don't worry, if your content is so good that I want to subscribe, I will find
your button, you don't need to shove it in my face.

~~~
Igelau
I don't have the attention surplus to hunt down a "No thanks" or a tiny "X"
that's been tucked away somewhere while I'm trying to read something. If I
can't dismiss the modal by pressing ESC or clicking on the overlay, I've
already stopped caring about the message and left.

------
pell
Very nice project, I hope you can drive up engagement some more. It will be
great to see more discussions and projects on there.

------
towndrunk
I wish people would stop with throwing up dialogs/alerts/signups when I start
to scroll. I can't believe people think this is a good idea.

------
sansnomme
Like Elpha but better?

~~~
mariedm
I think we are working on different ideas. Women Make is more focused on
entrepreneurs and makers, whereas they are more into tech career advice (maybe
like a LinkedIn for women). Also, Women Make is an indie project.

~~~
dorena
I was a member there when they just got started and the idea back then was to
make a HN for women and there were more women building stuff in the beginning,
now the topics have drifted away from that. (Unfortunate, from my point of
view, but maybe people like it more this way)

~~~
mariedm
You're welcome to join Women Make and tell me what you think! I'd love to have
your feedback about this.

~~~
dorena
congrats on your platform! I actually just joined yesterday :) really happy to
share my thoughts after some weeks, so far I like it

------
Uptrenda
Nice idea OP, and the design seems very friendly and welcoming. I would only
say one thing (and IDK how this is going to go down): but IMO, it makes more
sense to me to discourage men from posting completely - and I say that as a
guy myself. Why am I saying this? Because there's already plenty of places
that are primarily filled with / run by / used by men.

I think if you want to have a female only site then no one should really get
offended by this. I do think females probably have many different experiences
than men in the tech space and having a place where it's more normalized to
share them is a good idea. Without rules for a community like this it will
just get diluted and you'll end up with Hacker News 2.0.

I've seen communities like this work really well in the past but only with
good moderation and clear rules. Having a place like this is also a great way
to understand people a little better - i.e. listening instead of speaking (if
you're not a female.) just my thoughts. let them downboats flow~

------
vsyu
Congrats! This is awesome.

------
davidmott
Great idea! Best of luck!

------
ronsor
Arguably, the people aren't upset that there is a female-oriented space, but
rather that the same kind of male-oriented space would likely be seen as
"problematic" or "hostile."

~~~
danso
Ostensibly, arguing the need for a male-oriented space implies that the
default/mainstream spaces aren't already male-oriented. AFAIK, there isn't a
huge outcry against male nurse associations:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAMN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAMN)

~~~
commandlinefan
> already male-oriented

If you scroll through the comments here, you may find that it's not a foregone
conclusion that the mainstream spaces are necessarily male-oriented. Quite a
few people feel the opposite, in fact.

~~~
danso
Didn't say it was a foregone conclusion. Just speculating to the parent
commenter about why some people find proposed male spaces (in certain spheres)
to be "problematic".

------
RangerScience
> Happens I learned Node JS last year

Neat! Have you ever heard of curried functions? I only recently started using
them in JS, and they've completely (and positively) revolutionized how I write
Javascript (both backend and front).

~~~
RangerScience
What's with the downvotes?

~~~
jraph
I didn't downvote, but your comment seems a bit off-topic (presenting a random
js feature in a thread that is not really about this, and there is nothing
really extraordinary in the fact that the OP learned NodeJS last year - good
for her!). See also steerpike's comment with which I agree. Your intent may
have been sharing this feature that makes you enthousiastic so I can
understand that you may find the downvotes frustrating. Don't lose your
enthousiasm though, it's a great thing.

You may want to review the HN guidelines, they discourage discussing
downvotes.

~~~
RangerScience
Thanks, that's exactly the situation. Thank you for the support, as well.

I had forgotten HN discourages it!

------
jpxw
Can you define the word woman?

~~~
Infinitesimus
Assuming you're not being snarky, I think it generally refers to people who
identify/present as women for this site (I defer to the creator tho)

Obviously it's tricky now that we are coming to terms with gender fluidity but
as the population of non-binary/gender fluid people grows, there will be
spaces created to address related challenges unique to the group.

