
Microsoft now has the best hardware lineup in the industry - owenwil
https://char.gd/blog/2018/microsoft-has-the-best-device-lineup-in-the-industry
======
adpirz
> The 'it just works' narrative applies to Microsoft better than any other
> company right now, and consumers are noticing.

Can anyone who's recently transitioned to a Surface from a MacBook Pro / Air
testify to the validity of this statement? I am dreading the day I need to
upgrade my 2014 MBP, I'm just not compelled by the Touch Bar Macs and the tax
they add to the new lineup, but I still hear horror stories about BSOD,
bloatware, and the surprise update you can't back out of that I'd want to
return to far less.

~~~
darzu
Actually I just switched from a Surface Book to a Macbook Pro and the mac is a
huge improvement, both from a hardware and OS perspective.

Biggest complaints about Surface Book:

\- Its battery management is horrible. I don't know if the hardware or the OS
are more to blame for this. The worst part: I can pretty much expect that if I
close the lid and open it some hours later the thing will be dead. Whereas the
MacBook (so far) seems to be at the same percentage each time I close then
open the lid.

Other complaints:

\- Windows' split brain approach with fullscreen metro apps vs traditional
windowed apps continues to annoy me.

\- The pencil is a gimmick to me since the apps (like OneNote) are very poorly
designed for serious work with a stylus.

\- Windows is still considerably behind on multi-desktop workflows.

\- WSL still has some serious gaps and isn't as productive as Linux / OSX for
*nix-style programming tasks. It's getting better though.

\- Windows update continues to be a bad experience. Whereas I actually look
forward to macOS updates. (EDIT: My updates are managed by MSFT IT which is
more aggressive than normal Windows Update so my experience might not be
representative. But I'm not using the Insider or beta builds.)

\- For example: My Surface Book just updated and now it's stuck on a Windows 8
looking home screen and I haven't yet figured out how to get back to my
"normal" desktop.

\- Windows continues to advertise "Bubble Witch 3" and "March of Empires" etc.
in the home screen. This is unacceptable to me.

Other observations:

\- I haven't noticed many BSODs with the Surface Book, so that's improved.

\- So far I actually like the touchbar, large trackpad, and keyboard. But I've
long ago remapped my keyboard shortcuts to never depend on the fn keys. Esc is
still easy to hit on the touch bar for me, in fact the hit-box is bigger than
on the Surface Book. If you need it frequently, remap caps lock.

\- For MS hardware, there isn't bloatware unless you count MS software which I
generally don't.

(Disclosure: I work for Microsoft in the Azure org.)

~~~
avn2109
>> "...I just switched from a Surface Book to a Macbook Pro and the mac is a
huge improvement, both from a hardware and OS perspective."

Can the MS hardware run Linux without me doing a bunch of work with drivers
etc?

~~~
darzu
I don't have experience doing a native Linux install on the Surface Book, but
I use(d) VirtualBox and use Linux every day for development (on Surface Book
and Mac). With virtualization technology being as advanced as it is, I don't
think there is any appreciable performance difference to a native install
assuming you have enough RAM for the extra OS.

~~~
lostapathy
Unless ... you want to share a filesystem between the windows host and the
vbox guest. In which case performance is god awful.

~~~
e12e
From host to guest network filesytems (cifs/samba) should be OK?

~~~
lostapathy
Depends what you're doing, honestly. Some software won't tolerate running off
a network mount at all for various reasons, if so you're sunk.

Some is just slow because it's inefficient. It's been a while since I had to
resort to this, but accessing a big svn checkout over cifs is so slow as to be
useless.

------
elboru
>One final thought: the biggest point of discussion around these new devices
is the lack of USB-C on modern devices. While I agree with this point, I
suspect that the decision was made because consumers outside of our industry
simply don't care, and the transition period sucks -- dongles galore and
little to show for it.

Well it's not only that they don't care, they just don't know yet. But they
will care and know after they get new gadgets then they'll start wondering why
they need adaptors or different chargers for their computers.

That argument was fine with the previous models, but in 2018 all new gadgets
use USB-C and that will be the norm from now on. I was thinking on getting one
of their products, but this really is a turn off for me, since if I buy a
computer today I expect to use it for at least 5 years (like my current 2013
MacBook Pro) and I don't see myself carrying around adapters in 2023.

~~~
thrower123
USB-C ports are an active negative for me. I do not care to have them at all -
I still don't own a single device that would use a USB-C port, while I have
mountains of USB-A devices that will last for a length of time between 5 more
years or until the earth is engulfed by the sun. I also like having dedicated
power and display ports (HDMI-out is a requirement for the foreseeable future)
as well, which are obvious and cannot have anything else stuffed into them.

~~~
starshadowx2
>I also like having dedicated power and display ports (HDMI-out is a
requirement for the foreseeable future) as well, which are obvious and cannot
have anything else stuffed into them

I don't understand this argument when any of the ports would work. If USB C
can handle power, data transfer, video, audio, etc. and you had multiple USB C
ports on a device then any one of them would work for any use. That's such an
easier system then having a bunch of different cords and ports.

~~~
falcolas
Not all USB C ports are equal. Some have higher speed potential than others.
Some have higher power providing/consumption potential than others. Some carry
additional protocols (looking at you, Thunderbolt) that are only available on
some ports.

Cables are in an even worse place - if your cable actually lives up to its
stated capabilities (and the capabilities are as vastly different as the ports
above), it's in the minority.

[https://plus.google.com/u/0/+BensonLeung/posts/LH4PPgVrKVN](https://plus.google.com/u/0/+BensonLeung/posts/LH4PPgVrKVN)

~~~
gaius
_Not all USB C ports are equal. Some have higher speed potential than others.
Some have higher power providing /consumption potential than others. Some
carry additional protocols (looking at you, Thunderbolt) that are only
available on some ports._

Standards are great, aren’t they?

------
JumpCrisscross
The key feature keeping me in Apple’s ecosystem is their unwavering embrace of
privacy. I think this matters to more high-end consumers than many people
realise. If Microsoft deployed features that made their devices (and culture)
convincingly impenetrable, I’d switch.

~~~
danieldk
_The key feature keeping me in Apple’s ecosystem is their unwavering embrace
of privacy._

But so do Linux and BSD. A stellar laptop with good Linux support may be
enough for me to jump ship. I have been a Mac user since 2007, but it is clear
that Apple does not really care about the Mac anymore. They will keep the Mac
alive to continue to take the revenue and to have an iOS development machine.
The Mac Mini has gone downhill since the 2012 model, the MacBook Pro has been
quite bad since the 2016 (I have one and dislike it), the MacBook Air is great
as it ever was, but is effectively early 2010s technology when it comes to the
screen. On the software side, they are not really fostering the Mac ISV
ecosystem anymore.

macOS is still great, because Apple was so far ahead when they stopped caring
(2012 or so). But the great stagnation has already gone on for half a decade
or so.

I am not a Windows user, but at least Microsoft cares about their Surface
lineup.

~~~
ktta
There's System76 and Dell's new Ubuntu laptops. The problem just might be
about Linux support in general

~~~
Arbalest
I would really love a go to for this, but System76 are still bound by what
Clevo makes. Lots of it just isn't that interesting. Clevo, from what I see,
is a specs first company, but I think we're a bit beyond that now. I'm finding
myself more and more interested in battery life, weight, and a good keyboard.
This is already hard enough to find in laptops as is, let alone in Clevo's
range

edit: I tried Dell's keyboard on the XPS and immediately disliked it. I don't
think the developer ed would have different hardware in this respect.

------
dakom
I enjoy having windows as a machine for gaming and hacking, but WSL feels
slow. Simple things like compiling and running watchers/servers for local
changes.

What's the recommended approach for (non-visual-studio) coding larger
projects? Install Linux on another partition? Use native binaries and forget
about WSL?

Fwiw I like working in NeoVim and it's been great in WSL-terminal, overall I'm
happy with that route - but the slowness is annoying...

~~~
tutysara
Yes even things like git are comparitively slow on wsl. Emacs in windows is
also slow, haven't found a solution to this.

~~~
mattigames
Why would you use git on wsl when the project itself has released binaries for
Windows?

------
TwoBit
Does Microsoft hardware have a decent trackpad, unlike all other PC laptops?
My MacBook trackpad is great and I'm baffled as to why PCs can't replicate it.

~~~
coder543
Windows trackpads in mid-range or better laptops have been every bit as good
as their Mac equivalent for several years now, in my opinion. Unless you think
Force Touch is something desirable on a trackpad, in which case you'll be
disappointed.

Surface is a weird hybrid of laptop and tablet, and I haven't been impressed
by its floppy keyboard or tiny trackpad. A Lenovo X1 Carbon, on the other
hand, is just incredible.

~~~
Someone1234
> Surface is a weird hybrid of laptop and tablet, and I haven't been impressed
> by its floppy keyboard

I agree, but only as far as the Surface Pro/Go are concerned. The Surface Book
and Surface Laptop have no such issues, and have a very good keyboard feel.

I don't currently recommend a Surface Pro or Go for that reason. I will
happily recommend the Book or Surface Laptop however.

~~~
coder543
I agree, I definitely meant to refer only to the Surface Pro.

I wish the Surface Laptop had USB-C, and I'm not a fan of how expensive the
Surface Book is, but I recognize the Surface Book might be awesome for certain
people.

------
dman
Wish Microsoft fixed the following two things

a. Fix IO overheads - things like cloning git repositories, copying
directories with several thousands of small files, compilation are all much
slower on Windows.

b. Write a proper terminal.

~~~
boterock
proper terminal APIs are coming in w10 october update, so then we will see how
a real win10 terminal would work, and not just another cmd reskin as it has
always been...

~~~
dman
What about IO? I half suspect its the file notification apis that cause the
slowness (since disabling antivirus seems to help a fair amount) but would
love to hear more from people in the know. What are the things standing
between how things are now and matching linux on the time it takes to git
clone a large repo + compile it.

------
vparikh
Hardware is the easy part. The software is where the "soul" lies. Microsoft
for the most part, has always had descent hardware - its the software that
causes them to be unpleasent and unreliable to use.

------
salsadip
Glad Microsoft is catching up, competition is always good for us. But they are
still severely lacking in the software department imo. It's just too
complicated (see below) and on top of that the disregard for privacy and
including ads in the OS is a no-go. Small anecdote: Last time I had windows 10
installed on my MBP, the screen was funnily dark, although set to 100%
brightness via the corresponding keys. Searching deep down in the system
settings I found something like 2-3 different settings (power saving settings,
profiles etc) which COULD have affected screen brightness, but weren't the
culprit. Took me a good couple minutes to dig through the new metro settings
app and then the older settings menus to find the right option. Now, it might
have been my Bootcamp installation which was configured incorrectly so it was
more vetted towards saving power, still doesn't matter: the settings shouldn't
be so complicated. It's not really close to "it just works". On mac, the user-
facing system architecture is much more comprehensive and easy to figure out.

------
yoodenvranx
Are they still almost impossible to repair?

I remember that iFixit gave the previous generation a 1/10 when it came to
repairability.

~~~
djsumdog
I thought it was a 0/10\. The ones with the felt surface required tearing
apart the entire unit in a totally non-repairable way.

The laptops have actual bodies and you should be able to take them apart. I'd
wait until Dave2D does a review as he almost always includes opening the
laptop.

------
ppeetteerr
It's impressively broad and consistent. Well done, MS. Surprising what a
software company can do with hardware ;)

~~~
mc32
The one thing the Dells of the world have over the MSFTs and AAPLs of the
world is choice in configurability.

That said, for home users their portable computer lineup makes sense.

~~~
ppeetteerr
Maybe too much configuration? It's not clear what the value prop is of the
Inspiron line versus the XPS line and the Inspiron line has 20 base models.

------
GeekyBear
Is someone honestly referring to a laptop that literally cannot be repaired as
"the best hardware"?

It's not even possible to replace the battery in the Surface Laptop.

>According to iFixit, the Surface Laptop isn’t repairable at all. In fact, it
got a 0 out of 10 for repairability and was labeled a “glue-filled
monstrosity.”

[https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-
labels-s...](https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-
surface-laptop-glue-filled-monstrosity)

~~~
Someone1234
That is true. It should be noted, that there aren't many in the ultra-
portable/ultrabook range which are repairable. Even looking at Thinkpads, the
ultra-portable models aren't repairable, but the more traditional form factors
(like the T, P, ranges) remain so.

At some point in the thinner/lighter push physics start to dictate what you
have to give up to get it. In this case we're talking all soldered/glued parts
made to order to fit into the space available.

~~~
GeekyBear
To my knowledge, the Surface Laptop is the only laptop that iFixit has ever
rated as impossible to repair.

It didn't receive that rating because it was thin and light. The issue was
that it was not possible to open the device without destroying it.

>It’s clear that Microsoft never intended for the Surface Laptop to be
repaired because it’s a completely sealed device. There aren’t even any screws
to take out, so iFixit had to slice the fabric cover open to peel it away from
the metal chassis. That’s never going back together. The inner metal shield is
also devoid of screws, relying instead upon spot welds and glue. Again, this
is probably not going to be reassembled.

>Replacing a defective or worn out battery is one of the most common repairs
on laptops, but it’s really not feasible here.

[https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-
labels-s...](https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-
surface-laptop-glue-filled-monstrosity)

------
larrik
But do they run Linux?

~~~
VirgilShelton
Yes. You can install the Linux subsystem see [https://docs.microsoft.com/en-
us/windows/wsl/install-win10](https://docs.microsoft.com/en-
us/windows/wsl/install-win10)

Or you can install a Linux virtual machine with Hyper-V on Windows 10 see
[https://m.windowscentral.com/how-run-linux-distros-
windows-1...](https://m.windowscentral.com/how-run-linux-distros-
windows-10-using-hyper-v)

~~~
ognarb
'Linux subsystem' don't include the linux Kernel, just some gnu tools.

~~~
_wmd
I daresay the Ubuntu userspace WSL ships with absolutely eclipses the kernel
in terms of lines of code. For all intents and purposes it's another Linux
distro, essentially with just one or two core packages swapped out.

Excluding drivers, documentation and non-x86 arch code, Linux is "only" 173mb
of uncompressed source (39mb gzipped). The Debian source repository is 103GB
compressed, or, put another way, the replaced code amounts to about 0.03% of
what makes up Debian.

~~~
umanwizard
This might be true but what does it matter?

It would in theory be totally possible with enough work to make Ubuntu run on
the FreeBSD kernel, does that mean FreeBSD is Linux?

~~~
_wmd
Turning that on its head, if you removed all of userspace and just left the
kernel, would it be truthful to call what remains Linux? I'd say in common
parlance that is what's called "the Linux kernel", and what people mean when
they say Linux more thoroughly refers to the work of distributions than it has
anything to do with the kernel

Linux of the early 00s was popularized on a platform of "Linux is about
freedom, Linux is about choice". At least one half of that is entirely due to
the distributions.

~~~
umanwizard
You're right from a user perspective, sure.

From a programmer's perspective, you are writing a program which interacts
with the world by making system calls to the kernel. So the kernel is
fundamentally more relevant than the fact that the system is running Wayland
and comes with LibreOffice.

------
dgudkov
> The 'it just works' narrative applies to Microsoft better than any other
> company right now, and consumers are noticing.

'It just works' is best tested when you connect to a printer via wi-fi. We
sent humans to the moon and car-sized rovers to Mars, but printing seems to be
an unsolvable task for the humanity at the current technology level. At least
in the Windows world.

------
ninju
The article contradicts itself

> It took years to get here, but Microsoft has nailed it. By comparison, the
> competition is

> flailing around arguing about whether or not touchscreens have a place on
> laptops. The

> answer? Just let people choose.

Or if you are Microsoft just put a touchscreen on all your devices

> Every single one of these machines _has a touchscreen_ , supports a high-
> quality stylus, and current generation chipsets.

------
te_chris
Apple will now sell me a laptop with: 6 core i9, 32 gig of RAM and 1TB. As a
bedroom producer this is truly incredible - and, yes, incredibly priced. The
sheer capability of this machine is awe-inspiring, then you remember that it's
super portable. 2018 is great.

~~~
djsumdog
The i9 initially had throttling issues, although some of those issues have
been solved. A lot of recent reviews have shown that almost every PC/Mac i9,
that isn't built with gaming laptop style heat pipes is going to have
throttling issues. That processor is really not meant for a thin and light
form factor.

There are plenty of PC laptops that can give you similar specs to the high end
Apples though. Lenovo recently released another Carbon, and I see constant
reviews for pretty high end gaming/workstation lappys.

~~~
te_chris
They're not macbooks though. We bought a ROG Zepherus for someone doing 3d
stuff at the place I work, it's fine, has a GTX 1080, but it's no mac book.
And you can't run OSX. I'm a (relatively) happy member of the cult with the
latest upgrades.

------
linkmotif
This is so great. I am so glad someone finally did this. It took 15 years but
the heat is on and Apple will have to deliver big or stop building personal
computers. I hope it’s the former.

------
fabiofzero
Sadly they also have the worst OS ever.

------
evanagon
This "device lineup" is missing the most important device: a phone.

~~~
jamesgeck0
Microsoft is going all in on Android now. The app mirroring feature in the
October Windows update replicates a major Windows Phone feature.

Related, there are persistent rumors of R&D on a pocketable Surface device
codenamed "Andromeda" similar to the "Courier" prototype from a decade ago.

------
intended
Wait what, there was another surface launch ?

~~~
ColinWielga
A small one.

Surface pro 6: 8th gen cpu. Better screen. Available in black.

Surface laptop 2: 8th gen cpu. Better screen. Available in black.

Surface studio 2: Gpu bump (1060/1070). Better drive (no longer hybrid).
Better screen.

~~~
intended
They really are underselling these events. I suspect that this is because of
dissatisfaction from other OEMs.

------
AboutTheWhisles
This is a straight up advertisement.

------
jhare
I'm sure their lineup has improved.

My Thinkpad Carbon X1? My cold dead hands is where you'll find that, not some
Surface nonsense.

------
bengale
I hope this means I get to watch the same guys buy another bunch of surface
hardware and then sell it a few months later and sheepishly return to their
MacBooks.

Edit: Hit a sore spot I see.

------
MrEfficiency
I really like my windows 10 set up, it took me a few weeks to make it perfect
by:

>Swapping my HDD with a SSD

>Fresh install of windows, removing the crapware that came with my laptop

And its incredible, I have about 7 chrome windows with 30 tabs open, sublime,
Virtualbox, VS code, heidiSQL, excel, calculator, folders, paint, snipping
tool, and often more open at the same time.

I can remote into my ubuntu server and get all of those benefits.

What is the competition? Apple who costs 3x more? Linux desktop which requires
the extensive use of Terminal to function at Window's expectations?

I want to see someone knock M$ off their OS throne, but that is more of an
unnecessary fantasy than a real pain.

