
Kim Dotcom loses extradition case - tptacek
http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/75407880/kim-dotcom-loses-extradition-case
======
downandout
He can still appeal the case to a higher court in New Zealand, and may have a
chance there. Copyright infringement isn't extraditable from New Zealand,
because it's not a crime there. To counteract this problem, the US also
charged him with conspiracy to commit a crime and money laundering, which
_are_ extraditable offenses in New Zealand. However, those charges are wholly
dependent upon the main copyright infringement charge. The conspiracy charge
is based upon conspiring with others to commit copyright infringement, and the
money laundering charge is based upon his use of the proceeds of an alleged
crime - namely, copyright infringement.

Based upon this, a higher court may very well reverse the lower court's
decision. Kim Dotcom isn't going anywhere until he has exhausted all of his
extradition appeals.

~~~
takeda
I'm still puzzled how he can be extradited if he is not US citizen and did not
commit any crime on US soil.

~~~
jeza
Hew Raymond Griffiths, had never been to the US. He was extradited from
Australia to the US for something that isn't considered a crime in Australia.

The irony is this part: "Griffiths finally returned to Australia on 2 March
2008, after 5 weeks as an illegal alien in the US immigration detention system
following his release from prison on 26 January 2008 (Australia Day). A
condition of his repatriation to Australia was that he never again re-enter
the United States of America, a country he had never visited before being
extradited to it."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hew_Raymond_Griffiths](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hew_Raymond_Griffiths)

~~~
abalashov
What in the actual fuck? He was detained for immigration authorities because
'prisoner for a crime that isn't a crime in my jurisdiction' isn't a legal
immigration status?

Thanks for educating me about this.

------
tptacek
Process arguments aside (and there may be process arguments that demolish the
US case here, and I care about process too, especially if they involve getting
evidence in bogus ways):

The US has Kim Schmitz dead to rights in this case.

There's a whole mythology about what MegaUpload actually was, and it gets
partial anecdotal support from people who, for instance, used it or had
friends who used it solely as a sort of Dropbox or benign file transmission
method.

But when the DOJ imaged the servers, they got Schmitz's mail spools, and they
have Schmitz and his employees in black- and- white discussing payment systems
that disbursed cash to users specifically based on pirated media.

My favorite anecdote from the indictment:

At one point during the operation of MegaUpload, a user downloaded an episode
of Dexter from it, and complained to Schmitz via email that the video quality
was low.

Schmitz responded not by scrubbing Dexter off his site, but instead by
demanding that his staff fix the video quality issues.

~~~
nikcub
It really grinds me that he is portrayed by some as an unjust victim of US gov
malice and a champion for internet rights issues when he is nothing more than
a thief, liar and conman.

It doesn't help that people like Snowden, Greenwald and Assange associated
themselves with his cause when they appeared at his election event in Auckland
where he promised a bombshell against the government but produced what were
likely forged documents.

I'm all for copyright reform, online privacy rights, reform of US judicial
overreach, etc. but Kim Dotcom earned $175M by commercializing misappropriated
content. There was no cause here as could be argued with the pirate bay or
other similar cases. There was also nothing innovative or interesting about
what he did. This guy was in it for himself and knew what he was getting
himself into and what the consequences could be.

That he cast himself as an internet jesus was to be expected by those who knew
him, but that so many bought it up is very unfortunate and damaging to
legitimate causes.

~~~
norswap
That's one way too look at it. The other way is that he made content available
when the producers wouldn't. How long do you have to wait to get TV shows in
the EU while the US merrily fills the internet with spoiler?

His motivation weren't noble; but as far as thieves go, I'll take Kim Dotcom
over the MPAA or the RIAA.

~~~
evgen
Do you want to know how long you should have to wait to get US TV shows in the
EU? AS LONG AS THE COPYRIGHT OWNER THINKS YOU SHOULD WAIT. This sort of
entitled "I want any content that interests me and I want it for free"
attitude is exactly what plays into the hands of those who want to limit
copyright reform.

~~~
speeder
And people like you have some entitled thinking that you have the right to
deny people like me (I am from a third world country that is mostly ignored by
copyright owners) the right for culture and education.

I pirated thousands of stuff, and I am proud to say it, because pirating
thousands of stuff is how I educated myself, and how I got cultured in things
that don't exist in my country, and now allow me to do the amazing stuff that
I do (including participate in the international economy, that has more money
available than local economy, and earn enough money to sometimes be able to
legally buy something, instead of pirating it).

~~~
awakeasleep
Your situation highlights my philosophical disagreement with Intellectual
Property.

I think, when you really analyze the basic motivations behind IP, they come
down to 'It's the law of the jungle.' aka "Fuck you, pay me".

There are lots of humane laws that take the exigencies of life into account,
but there are also laws that the powerful have created to exploit the less
powerful. A legal framework that excludes the poor from _sharing the ideas_ of
the powerful or wealthy is not an 'enlightened' law, and therefore I believe
anything that can be done to fight it or weaken it's enforcement mechanisms is
a mitzvah.

------
lectrick
My only rational objection to this is that I don't think we've figured out how
to predict actual losses to piracy.

In other words, it is extremely naive (and quite unfair to infringers) to
assume that EVERY pirated copy of something is a lost sale. The folks I've
known who pirate are more like... data hoarders than payment evaders...
Oftentimes they _never even bothered consuming the media_ , it was all about
collecting things first for them, and they would have never paid for said
media to begin with, so it really becomes nebulous to start swinging around
accusations of theft, because... what was "stolen"? Some unknown percentage of
the copies surely ARE lost sales, but how can we determine that percentage?
Would it vary based on attributes of the media?

In any event, I think the entire state of China would probably be the worst
copyright offender, if they're looking for someone to go after...

~~~
danielbarla
And even in the case of the "payment evaders", I'm willing to be that a large
percentage is made up of people who would opt to not consume rather than pay
the full price. This is especially true in countries with less fortunate
economic situations. Multiple downloads and situations where one would
actually prefer a cracked, DRM-free copy are also probably counted as "lost
sales". The list goes on, and I'm pretty sure the percentage of lost sales is
a lot lower than what the industry would like to believe.

That's not to say that blatant piracy is a good thing either. I just don't
think the industry has figured out a very good response to it. Rather,
convenience features and price point could be adjusted to make piracy a less
attractive option.

~~~
psykovsky
And let's not even talk about new movies having record box office revenue...
That's how much piracy affects them, sending more people to the cinema, on
every new movie that comes out.

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such_a_casual
I just want to say that many, many moons ago when I was still just a lad, I
released my first ever computer program to the public. Very soon after someone
uploaded a copy to megaupload without my permission. I submitted a copyright
complaint to megaupload and it was swiftly removed. I will always remember
that. Thank you Kim.

Once a month in my country someone shoots up a school and now we've had a
terrorist attack. Meanwhile the FBI and DOJ is spending mine and my fellow
citizens precious resources chasing copyright law half way across the world. I
am ashamed to be an American. I am proud of what this country is supposed to
stand for, but I am appalled by the criminal negligence and ignorance of our
leaders.

~~~
jsmith0295
Crime which costs U.S. companies directly leads to a variety of issues. But
basically, it means America has less wealth, and the government has less tax
revenue. It makes plenty of sense for them to enforce copyright laws. It's a
net positive for the economy not to allow people to profit off of IP theft.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
How many people are doing jail time for the AIG or Lehman scandals?

How much did those scandals affect the economy, compared to the effect of MU?

~~~
jsmith0295
The issue is that politicians also need to appease their donors, which is why
they just generally protect the elites. But that doesn't make what Dotcom did
any less criminal.

In my opinion, they're two entirely separate issues. And getting both right
would probably require something like a President Sanders with a Democratic
congress willing to pass significant campaign finance reform.

------
giancarlostoro
I always found it quite odd that his arrest and the takedown of MegaUpload all
happened during the day the internet protested SOPA... A bill that was
supposed to "Stop Online Piracy", and yet they seem to take down websites just
fine without said bill?

~~~
tacos
Unpopular but true fact: SOPA, while clumsy, was to codify and clarify
takedown provisions, especially to countries where the US has less political
influence. And also to extend DMCA-style protections to payment and ad
providers.

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jstalin
The original federal indictment of Dotcom.

[https://www.unitedstatescourts.org/federal/vaed/275314/1-0.h...](https://www.unitedstatescourts.org/federal/vaed/275314/1-0.html)

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dantiberian
The timing on this is awful for Kim. In NZ, all of the lawyers will be off on
Christmas Holiday from now for at least two weeks, possibly three. Overtime
lawyers bills will be expensive.

~~~
neuro_imager
This is the funniest thing about NZ - the country basically shuts down between
christmas and mid-January.

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peter303
Does New Zealand have an Ecuadorian Embassy?

