
Google’s new program to track shoppers sparks a federal privacy complaint - a_w
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/07/30/googles-new-program-to-track-shoppers-sparks-a-federal-privacy-complaint/
======
DannyBee
Unfortunately, credit card companies/banks/etc have been selling purchasing
histories, to pretty much all comers, for years.

It'd be really nice if we could stop _that_ instead of caring about the
particular people they sell it to.

IE It's not "better" when they sell it to someone who isn't Google, and I
honestly could't give a crap about the complaint, which mostly deals with
antitrust.

~~~
trendia
Visa is working to prevent people from using cash in stores [0]. Currently,
they are merely giving merchants an incentive to change, but in the future
they may use their immense lobbying power to get preferential legislation
enacted.

Once cash is gone:

1\. your purchases will be available to any company willing to pay for it, and

2\. Visa will get a de facto "tax" on all transactions (through 1-2% merchant
fees)

[0] [https://www.wsj.com/articles/visa-takes-war-on-cash-to-
resta...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/visa-takes-war-on-cash-to-
restaurants-1499853601)

~~~
likpok
NB that handling cash isn't free either. You have to pay someone to count it,
secure it, and steal it (you are arguably not intentionally paying people to
steal cash, but shrinkage is certainly a cost of doing business in cash).

I've seen estimates that the cost of handling cash is actually higher than the
interchange fees that Visa charges. This generally counts things like armored
truck services, time spent counting cash (probably multiple times), time spent
delivering cash, dealing with registers, etc.

~~~
revelation
Well, there is a third even better option, don't charge insane fees to finance
ridiculous gimmick programs that for the vast majority of people never have
>=1 RoI.

Interchange fees for CC are capped at 0.3% and 0.2% for debit in the EU. No 20
cards in every wallet, black pink yellow variations, no "yes VISA but not
MasterCard" sillyness. Honestly even the cap of 0.3% is still far too high.

~~~
djrogers
> no "yes VISA but not MasterCard" sillyness.

Is there anywhere that is actually a thing? Very rarely I see a place that
won’t take Amex, but no visa or mc?

~~~
snark42
> I see a place that won’t take Amex, but no visa or mc?

Lots of places won't take AmEx or Discover (some of the highest fees in the
business.)

CostCo currently only takes Visa (no MC.) Sam's used to only take Discover.
It's rare, but it happens. In this case it's also only for "credit" purchases,
"debit" is ok for any card, but the fees are way less for "debit" than
"credit".

~~~
snuxoll
I've only run into one place in 2 years of having a Discover card that
wouldn't take it, seeing Amex not accepted is rather common.

------
the_common_man
> Google called its advertising approach "common"

Tragedy of the commons. At this point in time, any and all forms of data
collection have become common. When I visit a website, I expect them to
collect everything about me - my IP, my mouse movements, what I clicked, how
long I took to click it. Just a matter of time, that they start tracking audio
and visual cues as well. It's unthinkable today but we will get there. It will
enter slowly in the form of alexa and google home. then a browser plugin. Then
a browser integration. Then a web api. And to cap it all, everyone will claim
how it's made their life better.

~~~
whytaka
I wonder if you're using the term as a poetic device, but as far as I know
that's not what Tragedy of the Commons means.

Commons are properties without private owners. The tragedy is that because no
one individual owns it, the people that use it use it without care to its
maintenance believing that it is not their responsibility.

~~~
CardenB
This is still sort of the same thing. The blame can't be pinned on one single
entity because it is so common.

------
CivilianZero
Try as I might, I just can't be bothered to care if someone wants to know what
I've been buying so they can show me advertisements relevant to my interests.

But I'm weird, I don't think advertising is inherently evil or annoying.

~~~
Spivak
Do you want it to be sold to your insurance company? We see that you're a
regular coffee drinker which is correlated with increased risk of heart
problems -- here's a rate increase.

~~~
Eridrus
Maybe we'll get universal healthcare at some point and people will stop
rolling out this tired argument.

~~~
Spivak
Okay, how would you like your purchase histories to be used to determine your
wealth and companies charge you more for goods and services because they know
you can afford to.

"I'm sorry sir, our system says your wealth rating is 600, our discounts only
apply to people with 400 or lower."

~~~
digi_owl
We already see this with how airlines alter the pricing depending on when the
ticket is bought and whatsnot (because if it is bought for a middle of the
week trip etc, it is likely to be a business trip).

~~~
dave5104
But the key difference is that applies to everyone who wishes to make that
purchase, not just particular people.

------
cgb223
It's kind of ironic that a news paper owned by Amazon's CEO is publishing
articles about Google violating customers privacy

Not that it's not a valid complaint, just interesting

------
sounders
Credit card companies and retailers have sold anonymized purchasing data for
years to help companies analyze online ad clicks to offline spend.

Auto companies have used Polk vehicle registration data and data aggregators
to match a vehicle purchase to the user's online ad clicks. They compare how
showing ads for certain models influences your car purchase (ex. Honda CRV)
from your initial search (best family sedan) and demographic info (FB data
indicates you are an avid runner, 2 kids, 1 dog, etc..). Retailers employ a
similar model for basket size.

There are partners like Oracle Data Cloud, Nielsen Catalina Solutions, Neustar
and LiveRamp (ex. IdentityLink
[http://identity.liveramp.com](http://identity.liveramp.com)) that provide
similar data for O2O measurement.

------
ocdtrekkie
I actually also filed a complaint with the FTC about this program. Nobody
wrote an article about me though. :( (In fairness, this appears to be an
actual legal case, not just a 'complaint'.) I was particularly perturbed that
Google made it clear they had access to my credit and debit card data even if
I do not grant them permission to have it.

My guess is somehow I have given the credit card companies permission to sell
it, but it feels like my entire purchase history attached to my personally-
identifiable info enough to tie it to a Google account really shouldn't be
legal to sell.

As a note, filing privacy complaints with the Federal Trade Commission is
surprisingly intuitive, and I highly recommend people familiarize themselves
with the system and use it liberally.

~~~
fvinci
Has the FTC contacted you to follow up on your complaint? Just curious what
process is like.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Not as of yet. (Filed on May 23rd, got a generic "we received it" email on
that date.) It is possible that filing a complaint is akin to screaming into
the void, but it made me feel better that I filed it. Presumably if a lot of
people file complaints on the same topic, they might notice.

------
code_duck
I see ads on facebook related to purchases I make with a specific credit card.
I have no indication which party is supplying this info to whom and how they
made the connection to my facebook account.

------
kyrra
Previous discussion on this topic:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14406583](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14406583)

Opt-out (I believe) happens at the credit-card level, per [0][1].

[0] [https://www.engadget.com/2017/05/23/google-track-shopping-
tr...](https://www.engadget.com/2017/05/23/google-track-shopping-trips-ads/)

[1] [https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0222-privacy-
choices-y...](https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0222-privacy-choices-your-
personal-financial-information)

------
simlevesque
WaPo has the same power: they know what customers buy. They're owned by Bezos
which owns Amazon. How are they different ? Why would Google's data be more
prone to hacking than Amazon's ? This article is pretty hypocritical.

~~~
idlewords
Bezos owns the Washington Post, but as far as I know there's no connection to
Amazon or integration with Amazon. He owns it as an individual.

Publishers in general have very little visibility into user behavior, since
they rely on third-party tracking tools and third-party ad engines.

~~~
vitus
For about 8 months (Dec 2015 to the end of July 2016) I got daily emails from
Amazon with free articles from the Washington Post. Information on this is
sparse, so I don't know why it started or stopped.

Prime members also get a free six-month trial period, followed by a discount
on a subscription -- $3.99 / month [0], as opposed to the standard $10 / 4
weeks (or $99/year) [1].

[0]
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072MHQFJ1](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072MHQFJ1)
[1]
[https://subscribe.washingtonpost.com/](https://subscribe.washingtonpost.com/)

------
nibstwo
One philosophical question I have been wondering recently is whether this
problem could not be addressed by removing "real life" identity from the
equation.

I don't think personalized ads would be nearly as obnoxious if I knew that the
ad matches my browsing history but has nothing to do what name shows up on my
passport.

Most of what people seem to take issue with is their personal identity in
addition to the tracking.

The tracking for the purposes of relevant ads would be identical from the
perspective of the advertiser (efficient/profitable) but much more private for
the user.

------
jgalt212
> To do this, Google said it had obtained access to the credit and debit card
> records of 70 percent of U.S. consumers.

After reading the initial article in May, I called American Express and they
swore up and own they don't sell my purchased data. I don't see how you get
above 70% without data from American Express.

So who's lying?

~~~
davidcbc
American Express has a pretty small market share (7.5%)

[https://wallethub.com/edu/market-share-by-credit-card-
networ...](https://wallethub.com/edu/market-share-by-credit-card-
network/25531/)

~~~
jgalt212
Am I reading it wrong? The chart makes it look like Amex has 23%.

~~~
davidcbc
I'm referring to the cards in circulation number. The original claim was about
a percentage of consumers, not a percentage of transactions so to me that is
the more relevant number.

Either way, 100% - 23% = 77% which is > than 70% so the point stands. Visa +
Mastercard alone are over 70% using the purchase volume numbers

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Yeah, when Google said "over 70%", I basically just figured "Okay, so they
have Mastercard and Visa." Amex and Discover are both tiny comparatively.

------
Oletros
Good, but it would be better if they ask what kind of data is sold to any
party

------
EGO_DEATH
Privacy centric Cryptocurrencies is the solution rearing it's head. Zcash.
Btc.

