
A Year-Long Undercover Plot to Blow Up Eve Online's Most Notorious Space Station - omnibrain
https://kotaku.com/the-year-long-undercover-plot-to-blow-up-eve-onlines-m-1831574442
======
nearlyepic
Don't let The Initiative's propaganda machine disguise it: At the end of the
day the biggest coalition in the game blobbed a smaller alliance, having 10x
their total characters in their fleets. Somehow this is a great victory?
Doesn't add up to me.

Only thing this proves is that the problem of gigantic blocks rolling over
everybody in their path now extends to wormhole space.

~~~
technofiend
>the biggest coalition in the game blobbed a smaller alliance

Eh, how do you figure? According to dotlan they're number 11 for space held
[1] and number 8 [2] for total number of members.

[http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/systems](http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/systems)

[http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/memberCount](http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/memberCount)

Or are you just bitter vetting in which case carry on.

~~~
nearlyepic
I was just kinda spitballing that INIT + CONDI form the biggest coalition in
the game. Not sure if that's 100% true but when they're fighting an alliance
that can field like 200 people maximum it might as well be. They're literally
an order of magnitude larger.

~~~
technofiend
Ah you're combining the goons and init? I suppose you can do that but this is
about something init planned and executed, not the goons. And the article says

"Over 550 members of The Initiative logged in to answer the alliance’s call to
battle. Elsewhere in EVE, allied fleet commanders in The Imperium and in
Snuffed Out were asked to provide additional numbers to help the operation."

The Imperium is a coalition of corps _with_ the goons but it's not exclusively
made up of goons as far as I know. So it's kinda of disingenuous to dismiss
this as a goon op when they weren't directly responsible for it.

~~~
JWLong
If you look at the final battle report, goons outnumbered INIT dudes almost
two to one.

------
ubermonkey
I have zero interest in _playing_ Eve, but I do enjoy reading about these
enormous in-game events.

~~~
lordnacho
Same here. It seems so interesting I don't dare touch it for fear of
addiction.

~~~
asdfasgasdgasdg
You're not missing much. The game is like war: fucking boring for the vast
majority of the time, interspersed with short periods of absolute terror.
Watch any Eve online streamer and note how much time they spend sitting around
or flying from one place to another. [1]

My experience with the game is that the PvE elements are entirely forgettable
and uninteresting. The PvP elements could be amazing, but there are too many
mechanisms to favor experienced players. It's almost impossible to find a
"fair" fight, even as a person with several months of experience under your
belt, to the point that it's kind of a joke.

Personally, I don't have that much free time, so I prefer games with a higher
ratio of fun to boredom. That being said, if I had to pick a game to play all
day for a long time, Eve might be a good choice, simply because of the
diversity of experiences and complexity of optimization it offers.

[1]: I just checked. Out of the top ten streamers, nine are ratting (the most
boring form of PvE) and one is doing PVP, but he just got killed by five guys
after ten minutes of warping around.

~~~
Loughla
This was exactly my experience. It was massively boring and time consuming,
except for the meta-gaming/data analysis.

Then when you finally did deal with people, they were tribal dicks and any
battles were 100% lopsided to the benefit of the experienced player.

Eve Online is everything great and awful about online gaming all in one lag-
filled package.

~~~
ohyes
The spaceship combat is incidental, the more important part is collecting
enough people that you can go look for fights that are decisively in your
favor.

~~~
stcredzero
_the more important part is collecting enough people that you can go look for
fights that are decisively in your favor_

So basically, it's like real life. "Bigger army diplomacy," as CGP Grey says.
I think this is also extending to social media space.

------
mwest
One of the things about Eve Online that's fascinated me is how "open" they
make the game for third party developers.

Why bother with a spreadsheet, when you can dial it up a level and use their
data export and your favourite "Big Data" analysis tools to look for
interesting opportunities?

Maybe you enjoy blowing up space ships, but can't think of an in-game method
to fund your habit? Build a tool other Eve players will use (and pay for with
Isk) instead.

[https://developers.eveonline.com/resource/resources](https://developers.eveonline.com/resource/resources)

[https://github.com/devfleet/awesome-eve](https://github.com/devfleet/awesome-
eve)

[https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/tweetfleet-slack-
invites/](https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/tweetfleet-slack-invites/)

~~~
cbm-vic-20
The IT infrastructure of some of the more organized groups rivals that of
real-world corporations. Industry-oriented groups build ERP and financial
monitoring systems, notifications with Slack, "office hours", etc.

~~~
duxup
Heck Sean Smith (who was killed IRL in Lybia) worked for the State Department
IRL and was a high level diplomat-ish guy in game (roles seem pretty fluid in
Eve thus the "ish").

------
Cthulhu_
Reading it like this makes me a bit sad - but only a bit. They managed to
survive and maintain the first Keepstar for over two years, and it took a huge
and long winded infiltration to finally destroy it.

I'd argue that it proves that you have a big tactical advantage in wormhole
space, but you're not invincible or safe. Nobody is, anywhere.

Which at the same time is a bit of a shame; I wouldn't mind having my own
space station in high security space with no risk of losing it by another
corporation. I'm more of a casual base building turtling kind of gamer than
the pvp type.

~~~
aasasd
For me, when I've read “in wormholes you don't immediately see everyone in the
system on the map,” my question was why it isn't the default behavior because
it sounds way more fun.

Though I suppose, in the vast emptiness it might be difficult to find someone
else. But a ‘radar’ that helps with it could have a limited range.

~~~
RussianCow
The only thing that's different about wormhole space is that you don't see a
list of all players present in the system. This just means that you can't
enter a wormhole system and immediately get an idea of how crowded it is,
which makes it much more dangerous but doesn't actually change the dynamics of
radars and scanning all that much.

~~~
VectorLock
Thats only a small part of what makes wormhole space truly different.

The entire topology of wormhole space is constantly shifting with wormholes
appearing and disappearing. Hole control is paramount to fighting on jspace.

~~~
RussianCow
Sorry, I shouldn't have said "the only thing that's different", because there
are lots of other things that make wormhole space interesting. :) I just meant
it with regards to the scanning mechanics.

------
CJKinni
If you’re interested in more of this kind of player-made history of Eve, I
highly recommend Empires of Eve, both the book and the podcast series:

[https://m.soundcloud.com/empiresofeve](https://m.soundcloud.com/empiresofeve)

The podcast is very well produced and has interviews with the major players
from the early years of Eve.

Occasionally when I get the craving to play Eve, I also end up listening to a
few episodes of Talking on Stations, an eve podcast that gives fascinating in
depth analysis of a world I’ll never have time for.

~~~
swebs
>$3,165.21 for the hardcover

Yikes

~~~
sascha_sl
Amazon Marketplace!

Better wait for the second edition:
[https://www.empiresofeve.com/](https://www.empiresofeve.com/)

~~~
CJKinni
There’s also an $8 kindle version.

Excited to see there’s going to be a second volume!

------
AJRF
What an amazing sounding game.

I've looked at gameplay videos of EVE before and it looks so boring, but the
stories that come out of it are so evidently not boring.

Strange dichotomy.

~~~
chii
> gameplay videos of EVE before and it looks so boring

it is boring - but the game isn't the gameplay, it's the meaning behind it and
the consequences. A game like World of Warcraft has fun game mechanics. But
that game has no consequence, nor does the actions in the game have meaning
beyond the game's lore.

EVE is different in that any action has a direct consequence on somebody else
in the game - you kill a player's ship, they really lose that ship and have to
replace it with another ship, which costs resources and time to acquire. You
can steal from people, betray them - and make enemies. Real enemies, not fake
'factional' enemies from the lore (like the alliance vs horde).

Playing EVE is like living a second life. That's why they say 'winning' at EVE
is quitting it.

~~~
dmos62
> 'winning' at EVE is quitting it

Does that imply that there's wide-spread addiction to EVE (among those playing
it)?

~~~
pdpi
I read it more as a "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play"
sort of thing.

~~~
imdsm
I'd agree with this. As an engineer you'll find yourself spending more time
building tools than playing the game, sat in a station most of the time, and
easily spend longer on that then on your actual job. To play is to lose.

------
ilamont
Hats off to the writer for this epic account. Made it pretty clear how this
event transpired even though I've never played Eve.

------
pimlottc
What's the motivation for this attack?

The write-up says this operation was quite costly - 600 billion ISK in
resources spent to destroy a station that cost "hundreds of billions of ISK"
in the first place. Did the Initiative gain in-game resources and advantages
that were worth this costs, or was it mostly just done for the challenge of
doing something no one thought possible, and proving their might?

~~~
Triesault
This quote from the article seems to answer your question fairly well.

> No one has ever done anything great in EVE without someone else wanting to
> destroy it.

------
ergothus
I wonder why we find stories like this so compelling. We see it time and time
again: players work long and hard to destroy things that other players worked
long and hard to create.

I'm not mocking those that find these stories compelling. _I_ find them
compelling. But when I stop to ask myself why, I dont have a good answer. Why
is a successful attack (and less so, a successful defense) so much more
compelling than the initial construction?

Why is an Eve battle that destroys tens of thousands of dollars of value (or
more) more gripping than a minecraft world with tons of detail?

~~~
chrismeller
For me it comes down purely to the coordinated attack aspect. There are people
spending more time per day than I do at work clicking buttons in an imaginary
world. Seven days a week. 52 weeks a year.

Sure that sounds like I’m setting it up to be a whole “hey, look at these
losers!” kind of thing, but that’s not it at all. I’m jealous. They have
something they care about _that_ much and I can’t imagine ever having that.

Eve in particular also has appeal to me because of all the other aspects that
so accurately mirror real life. There isn’t any other game I’m aware of that
does that.

So in reality it’s not about the destruction or construction or whatever. It’s
about the depth and dedication.

~~~
AJRF
> "I’m jealous. They have something they care about _that_ much and I can’t
> imagine ever having that."

I identify with this so much. I have some friends who just pour time into
games, and sure you can say that's a waste, but to have the human experience
of caring that much about something must have some merit.

~~~
chrismeller
The only other thing I can think of that people have such a love/hate
dedication to is their kids, and sometimes I worry that eventually I’m going
to have kids and not find them interesting for the same reasons I don’t play
Eve (plus, you know, the poo).

------
tapland
I installed the game again during christmas, but on the login screen I was
greeted by the happy little message that my carrier is currently parked in
space. Will have to get the other account subscribed first just to scout the
area out before activating the other.

~~~
CydeWeys
Couldn't you just have someone else scout for you? Or you don't know anyone
else in the game anymore?

Also, is multi-accounting allowed or common?

~~~
tapland
My corp has fallen apart it seems and me telling anyone will make sure that I
will be without a ship a few minutes after logging on.

When you get into carriers or larger ships having multiple accounts is almost
a must. The large ships used to not be able to use jumpgates to move around
and the largest still can't afaik, so to move you have to log another
character in the location you want to go to and set up at temporary beacon (in
a sace place) that you can jump to.

What you do is you get a second account and fill your character slots with
low-skilled characters who only have the skills needed to fly a cheap
'cyno'-ship and place them where you need them.

The negative being that others could figure out who always jumps into system
after that one low skilled character shows up.

------
Hydraulix989
This is the fascinating start of an amazing trend -- happenings in massive
alternate realities are becoming newsworthy in their own right (because the
complexity, scale, realism, immersiveness, and mass-participation of these
simulations). RPO is well on its way to becoming real.

~~~
johan_larson
It's amazing how much time and effort some people are willing to spend on
make-believe. At least in pro sports and entertainment there's big money on
the line.

(Don't get me wrong. I admire cleverness, devotion, and capacity to organize.
And this event demonstrates all three on the part of those who made it happen.
But you'd think they could turn these skills toward more useful ends.)

~~~
Hydraulix989
A lot of milennials are eschewing running the rat race working 9-5 jobs to be
in debt, rent, and not own anything their entire life for gaming. Once
inequality reaches a certain point, everyone either checks out or revolts.

------
wingerlang
How do you hide ships in EVE? Is the playing field just an infinite space
where you can move a ship so far away that they are essentially hidden?

~~~
yetihehe
No, when you are not under attack and log off, ship disappears from world and
reappears when you log in.

~~~
wingerlang
Oh, okay thanks.

------
gtirloni
With some games, the earlier you join them, the more virtual wealth you get
and the more you can do as a consequence.

Is EVE Online something a newbie can join today and not feel just like food
for the lions?

~~~
LyndsySimon
Even the most oldest, most experienced players are just food for the lions
most of the time.

The real trick is knowledge and specialization. You play long enough to
understand what you want to do, then create a character that specializes in
that and that alone.

I don't play Eve anymore, but when I did, my favorite character was a solo
stealth bomber pilot. I spent most of my days in the game running around
nullsec, cloaked, looking for targets of opportunity. Every once in a while
I'd come across someone trying to sneak an industrial ship out into or our of
nullsec and ruin their day.

------
Taylor_OD
Once again Eve proves to be much more interesting to read about than to
actually play. I love these stories though.

~~~
harshreality
I still have an archive of other people's videos (which I'd guess are still on
some web archive or youtube channel, but maybe not) from the earlier days of
EVE. The videos are far more entertaining than playing the game was 99.9% of
the time. I even discovered some music via player-created EVE videos. What you
see in most videos took many months to years of character skill training, a
long period of trading or ratting to get ISK, and dozens to hundreds of hours
preparing for just the event seen in the video. Most of those requirements
(except experience of how to use the ships and equipment you acquire) can
alternatively be acquired by spending a lot of money (easily running into the
$1000s, at least when I played, and some people would spend that, just to find
the whole thing tedious and quit shortly after) on good characters and ships
and stuff, but even then PvP is mostly boredom (masked and made "fun" by
adrenaline).

Someone with the idea that they want to be just like one of those characters
they see in a spectacular EVE video, or that they hear about in an EVE story,
is like the kid seeing or reading about astronauts and thinking they want to
be an astronaut. Except most people who grow up wanting to be astronauts never
become astronauts, and same with any particular goal in EVE. And what happens
in EVE stays in EVE. Even if you achieve something notable in EVE, something
that requires a lot of effort... it's still in someone else's virtual universe
sandbox that could be turned off or changed on their whim.

The chance that you'll ever be directly involved in corp- or alliance-level
"big events", other than as cannon fodder, is almost zero unless you know
ahead of time you have what it takes to join or build, and then run and manage
that kind of enterprise at the equivalent of the c-suite level. Still, 99.99%
of your time will be taken up with ordinary stuff. It's a job.

------
AcerbicZero
I quit EvE a long time ago (2005-2010), and these stories remind me why the
game got so stale. Meta-gaming mixed with betrayal is fun to write about, and
is a great example of bugs becoming features, but being part of it isn't
actually all that enjoyable. Its just something to do when you want to do
_something_ that has an effect on _someone_ , because the game has no
interesting challenges left to offer.

In the end game you can highsec carebear, or you can sit in a nullsec blob. WH
space was a band aid trying to cover the fact that they ruined the risk/reward
system between high/low/nullsec, but it was enjoyable none the less.

It was still a great game, and back when I played there was nothing like
running around lowsec at -10, or just pulling security for small gang mining
operations, or any other small group/solo stuff.

------
anabis
>With all of the assets finally in place, there was only one thing left to do.
On December 8...

So, Pearl Harbor?

~~~
Overtonwindow
One day late…
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor)

------
hkt
The politics of EVE are incredible. I just don't understand how anyone finds
time, though.

------
the_duke
That was an exciting read.

I'm almost tempted to try out EVE again.

~~~
mabbo
What I remember of playing it 12 years ago was that I became quite adept at
spreadsheets.

~~~
Cthulhu_
That's one aspect of the game, mostly industry or mining IIRC. That's an area
that could use some shaking up, because it's pretty much impossible to be
profitable if you're a beginning industrialist. Mining works (that's one thing
I started off with), but it can get kinda boring if you're trying to optimize
it.

The game could do with a bit of modernization in the beginning player's
enjoyment and positive reinforcement feedback loop (if that makes any sense).
I'm wondering how best to achieve that; maybe make the missions a lot more
streamlined, add a bit of story to it, some more cutscenes and voice acting
maybe.

I'm imagining a questline where you end up building your own safe base now;
one thing I don't like is how you can't really build your own starbase without
constantly having to shut it down or rebuild it due to war declarations. What
I'd like to see is something like player owned housing in other MMOs where you
can build your own starbase inside of an instanced, unreachable pocket.

It would need to have some restrictions, I guess, in e.g. how much you could
store there and how much money you could earn there - Eve is all about risk vs
reward, and all reward with no risk won't work.

But anyway, a questline to eventually build a starbase, and follow-up quests
that develop the base in a variety of directions would be neat.

~~~
kriro
How well would it work as a testbed for learning algorithms? I heard that you
get good access to game data etc. Would it be feasible to be profitable at
mining if you have a great prediction algorithm? I know nothing about the game
but that would sound interesting as a nice dev-sideproject for structured data
algorithms. Can you automate/script the trading/mining etc. or is that
forbidden/considered botting or whatever?

~~~
seangrogg
Mining is a venture that benefits less from predictive optimization and far
more from operational scale. Barring black swan events, having perfect market
prediction is nowhere near as valuable as being able to strip mine systems
with an Orca/Rorqual account boosting a fleet of miner accounts.

------
WhompingWindows
Have there been any "viruses" or "hacks" within the game?

------
remote_phone
Was the problem that Hard Knocks didn’t patrol the inside of its wormhole?

~~~
jerf
I don't play Eve. Is it possible to patrol inside the wormhole? If possible,
is it practical? (e.g., if there's a lot of volume to be covered it can be
possible but not practical.)

If so, this is going to be a one-off event most likely.

~~~
fixermark
It's time-consuming and tedious to monitor every wormhole that is created and
destroyed. In practicality, player teams (corporations and alliances) monitor
their local wormholes while players are logged in, but most teams don't have
enough people in enough timezones for anything like total situational
awareness.

------
eof
Is there any other game that has been consistently making "the news" for a
decade?

~~~
PurpleRamen
Minecraft I would say, but for creations, not stories. Eve Online so far seems
really unique in being the only sandbox-game which also hosts a massive number
of players in a single instance. Without the impressive numbers those stories
would be more casual and less interessting, probably not even happening.

------
janandonly
While reading this account with interest (I'm never played this game) I
realized this is how it must feel to a non-bitcoiner to read so much jargon
and descriptions in just one short account.

------
baddash
Why'd they do this?

