
Kicked out of the US: 33 hours of hell - billforsternz
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11494827
======
furyg3
I read a lot of posts like this where someone makes a mistake (stupid or not)
and ends up in a jail cell for extended periods of time. Aside from the
notoriously inhuman behavior of US border security (I'm an American and am
treated better at foreign border crossings than at my own country's), the
_facilities_ should not be humiliating and scary.

I understand that they can't be admitted to the nearest best western, because
the could be a flight risk or a security threat (in some very unlikely
scenario). But there's no reason why an airport holding area can't both a)
look like a spartan hostel dorm room † and b) be secure. Families with
children should stay together, if possible. Separating couples by gender isn't
so scary if both partners arrive in a nice dorm room, they know their partner
is safe. Dim lighting at night means that people could still be monitored, if
truly necessary, and get a good nights sleep. Only dangerous, unruly, or
mentally unstable detainees should be kept in jail-level security conditions.
Lying on a visa application does not warrant prison treatment.

I know someone has to pay for this, but as someone who travels internationally
I'm happy to have my taxes spent in this way... there's a reciprocal quality:
I may make a mistake on a form or apply for the wrong visa, and I want to be
treated with dignity when that happens.

† [http://aspiringbackpacker.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/02/Hos...](http://aspiringbackpacker.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/02/Hostel-Dorm-Room.jpg)

~~~
coldtea
> _But there 's no reason why an airport holding area can't both a) look like
> a spartan hostel dorm room † and b) be secure._

Heck, real prisons for murderers in Nothern Europe and Nordic countries often
look better than Best Western rooms...

------
patio11
Many people understand the visa waiver program to mean "America has no
immigration laws which apply to white people." This is not _actually_ what the
visa waiver program means.

Many countries are pretty lax with regards to people immigrating to the
country to work. The United States has fallen into a weird equilibrium where
working illegally is very, very common and, since the polity hates this fact,
also very, very illegal, but only enforceable against people who mostly follow
the rules. If you're reading this and don't hold a US passport, you probably
mostly follow the rules, so you need to be _very, very careful_ to not violate
immigration law when coming to the US.

~~~
pepon
And the law does not mean that "you made something wrong therefore we have the
right to treat you as shit".

And by the way, that is not what is discussed in this thread. These people
made a mistake when getting the visa, and instead of getting an error, they
were put in jail 33 hours. Not everyone that makes a mistake with the visa is
a terrorist or an illegal worker. Probably most of them aren't.

------
Tortoise
So I spent about 60 seconds doing research. The J-1 visa they initially
applied for is a work visa (or study visa). The ETSA they came on is for visa-
waiver (tourism.) Most countries are going to be very unhappy if you apply for
a work visa, don't get it, then show up anyway and say you're just a tourist.
Non unreasonably, they assume you're lying. This isn't just a US thing.

~~~
crdb
I might not have read it correctly, but I didn't spot the point where they
said their J-1 was not approved - just that it was in progress (and from what
I hear, months-long approval processes seem pretty common in the States).

The two countries whose visa process I'm most familiar with in this situation
are Singapore and Australia. I've hired many foreigners into Singapore on
Employment Passes (the H1-B equivalent) and in some cases, they came in on a
tourist visa whilst their EP was in progress (testimony of our hiring speed
rather than the Singaporean administration, which delivers the thing in 7
working days).

Similarly, when I applied for Australian PR, which takes quite a bit longer
than Singapore, the embassy specifically told me it was fine to travel in and
out of the country during the application, and I did so on the usual visa
waiver whatever it is called.

I once was cornered - in a polite and friendly manner - by an Australian
immigration agent in Singapore on my way to Perth, who for all intents and
purposes looked like a perfectly normal, unarmed civil servant in a suit, and
who was wondering why I kept popping in and out of his country. Satisfied with
the explanation he let me continue after 2 minutes. And if you think
immigration is a hot topic in the US, you should see Australian news at the
moment...

I've also held two work visas in Switzerland despite owning an "inferior,
work-stealing frontalier" (not my words, those of the more right wing
protectionists) French passport and I regularly fly in and out of the country
without any issues.

Therefore, this story strikes me as an illustration of how bad the
backend/IT/processes for immigration are in the US. The main failure point was
a lack of communication, with the airline as well as with the travelers. All
airlines flying to Singapore and Australia check your visa situation (as in,
ask to see the visa and scan it) before you check in precisely to avoid these
problems. One also has to wonder the wisdom of not allowing visa types to
overlap conditionally, since other countries seem more than able to cope; and
whether failing to obtain a work visa really ought to be grounds for exclusion
from tourism travel.

~~~
trentnelson
> I might not have read it correctly, but I didn't spot the point where they
> said their J-1 was not approved - just that it was in progress (and from
> what I hear, months-long approval processes seem pretty common in the
> States).

A J-1 is initiated from a host institution, similar to how a company needs to
file a Labour Condition Application (LCA) before they can hire a H1B/E3 etc.

That provides you with the invitation, and you take that and all supporting
evidence to a US embassy in your country of citizenship and they assess on the
spot whether to approve or deny the visa.

They either couldn't get sponsorship from a host institution, or the consulate
officer rejected the application because of some other criteria.

There's not really a "months-long" approval process.

~~~
crdb
Fair. I'm not familiar with US immigration beyond anecdotes from my network.

From first contact to goes-through-the-door-of-your-office, how long would you
say it would typically take to hire a Vietnamese or Chinese citizen into your
SF company? Singapore's figure is 7 working days and I've done it in 36 hours.

------
declan
This is horrific. Eventually the product will become so bad that, at the
margin, foreign tourists will cease to be interested in it and take their (NZ)
dollars elsewhere.

Though I've had a nasty experience at _Canadian_ immigration. Once I was
invited to speak at a University of Ottawa law school event but neglected to
bring the invitation letter. I was directed to secondary screening and spent
what seemed like hours there before being allowed to enter the country. At one
point a Canadian immigration official said they couldn't find any record of
the conference, but as far as I could tell they were looking at the main
school's web site, not the law school's. Sigh. Ironically the event was
sponsored by the Canadian federal government...

At least it wasn't 33 hours of hell.

~~~
cperciva
Investigating suspicious claims when people arrive at immigration control is
perfectly reasonable; if you claim to be speaking at a conference but they
can't find any indication that said conference exists, holding on to you for a
while makes sense. I hope that, even without your invitation letter, you
eventually managed to put the CBSA agents in contact with someone who could
verify your bona fides and they let you into the country though?

To me, the largest problem with the reported story isn't that they weren't
allowed into the US -- applying for a work visa, then trying to enter as
tourists when you don't get the work visa is definitely suspicious behaviour
-- but rather that they were kept in jail until they could be deported. These
were not dangerous individuals; they could easily have been told to go find a
hotel and stay there overnight but report back to be deported in the morning.

Which, incidentally, is exactly what happened to a BSDCan attendee a few years
ago when he was deemed inadmissible to Canada a few years ago: "You're not
allowed in, but it's too late to send you back tonight and you seem harmless,
so we're going to give you a 24 hour pass. Be back here at 9 AM tomorrow."

~~~
sneak
> Investigating suspicious claims when people arrive at immigration control is
> perfectly reasonable

Not knowing how to Google isn't.

------
kalleboo
On one hand, this account sounds overly dramatized (and quite rude calling the
officers "broom pushers"), and it's hard to feel sympathy for people who take
the privilege of international travel too lightly by not researching the
relevant visa regulations (especially when it's a journalist of all people).

On the other hand, US immigration and customs officials really do seem heavy-
handed, and seem to revel in treating every tourist who filled out a form
incorrectly or misunderstood some rules as the next Bin Laden.

Now it's just a TV show so I don't know how "cleaned-up" it is, but if you
watch "Australia Border Patrol" they seem to have a much better relationship
with their visitors. Many episodes have people arrive flouting quarantine
rules or misrepresenting themselves still get let in, possibly just with a
fine, since they get a change to explain themselves calmly and correct their
mistakes and the officers come across as trying to help people rather than
trip them up.

~~~
billforsternz
> and it's hard to feel sympathy for people who take the privilege of
> international travel too lightly by not researching the relevant visa
> regulations

Really? I travel internationally quite often. I'd never dream of "researching
the relevant visa regulations". For example, my wife and I have twice booked
river cruises through Europe, entering half a dozen countries each time. We
did book through a travel agent, and I just assumed we would be fine. And we
were. In my experience going from one first world country to another tends to
be very low friction. The USA is becoming an increasingly huge outlier. I
haven't been there for a while but actually I probably would do some visa
research before going these days. Although having said that if I'd obtained an
online visa waiver I'd consider that to count as sufficient research.

~~~
16bytes
I completely agree with you. As a US citizen, I've found it easier to get
through customs in France than to get back into the US.

I find that fact completely astounding.

------
underwater
US immigration is really terrible. My first time through I was shocked at how
unfriendly and inefficient the system was. It made a big impact on how I
viewed the country.

------
benguild
This happened to my friend's parents because they misunderstood a visa form.

------
jimpick
The whole system needs an overhaul. Voters never see the effects of the
immigration laws the politicians write. I'm Canadian, but I've worked in the
US in the past and make frequent shopping trips (like most Canadians). Many
times I've gotten the secondary inspection treatment -- the technique is to
try to ruffle your feathers. You always come out feeling violated, but that's
the system.

I'm sympathetic towards the border guards that have to enforce rules that
barely make any sense. They have limited information and antiquated computer
systems, yet they have to filter millions of people a day, to "protect" the
country. Illegal immigration is a thing and so is smuggling, and terrorism.

~~~
viraptor
> Voters never see the effects of the immigration laws the politicians write.

Politicians rarely do that either. I wish they all got a heavy accent, put on
an agal and did a few trips for comparison.

------
andrewchambers
I up voted, because this does seem wrong, but this lady is overly dramatic in
my opinion.

~~~
TodPunk
As usual with dramatizations of poor policy where the treatment of people is
concerned: response on both sides was over the top. Obviously immigration
reform is needed. Obviously immigration workers and the security they employ
are more tough than they need to be. The problem with this article is the
author dehumanizes _them_ because she feels superior to them and more
importantly aggrandizes _her_ suffering as if it is comparable to any one of
the analogies she draws, let alone all of them.

She spent the night in a jail cell and it was uncomfortable. She was treated
like a criminal (ignoring the fact that she was, in fact, a criminal,
accidentally or not). She was not, however, treated like anyone typical in
Nazi Germany. She certainly wasn't treated like anyone was sticking it to PhD
students out of jealousy (how would they even know, especially given the
number of people they have to process through customs in a day?) Making the
comparison like she is diminishes the actual terrors and actual social
dichotomies faced by people that are in no way deeply concerned about not
having a cell phone for a day.

~~~
lambda
> She was treated like a criminal (ignoring the fact that she was, in fact, a
> criminal, accidentally or not).

No. Simply making a mistake on a visa application is not a crime, nor is
overstaying a visa. It counts as "Unlawful Presence", which is a civil
offense; in order to rise to the level of a crime, it must be "Improper
Entry", which involves crossing somewhere other than a designated border
crossing, deliberately lying on application forms, or the like.

One thing that people really need to be aware of in immigration law is the
difference between an unlawful act and a crime. Lots of rhetoric about
immigration talks about how people are already criminals for being in the
country undocumented, when in fact they have violated no criminal statues,
merely civil.

Actually, I think that this may not have even constituted unlawful presence;
since the author was not yet technically in the country until exiting the
airport, she was essentially just turned away at the border (with a brief
detention for practical reasons). Note that I am not a lawyer, and not all
that familiar with immigration laws, so take my interpretation with a grain of
salt; but I am certain that there's a very big difference between civil and
criminal violations, and committing a civil violation does not make one a
criminal.

~~~
alcima
False statements on a visa application is a federal offense and grounds for
inadmissability. Presumably they clicked "no" to "have you ever been denied a
visa" when in fact they had.

~~~
lambda
I wouldn't presume anything. There are lots of reasons this could have
happened, and not just due to lying on the application. Perhaps they had not
been denied the J-1, but were just having trouble meeting all of the
requirements in time; a J-1 visa requires a whole lot of paperwork, including
from sponsoring organizations, and if some of that was taking longer than
expected and may not have been done in time, they may have just thought "oh,
we can do the ESTA and stay for 90 days with no visa, during which we can work
this out", when in fact that is not allowed.

------
annasaru
US Immigration is heavy handed, some of my aged relatives have entered with
valid multiple entry visitor visas, and still have been questioned for 3-4
hours by rude agents.

This couple made some stupid errors though, mainly they were clueless about
how rigid the system is.

9-11 obviously changed the US system for ever. Now there is talk of amnesty
for people who never filed a single form (sneaked across the border), while
those who followed the rules to a T, or at least applied for some visa get
treated like this. As a legal immigrant, I am honestly conflicted about
amnesty for illegals.

------
1arity
This person is pretending to be a fake victim. The situation they created for
themselves is their responsibility. If they'd taken responsibility for making
sure they are not breaking the law, they wouldn't have broken the law. I
believe they are lucky to have been deported so speedily. Also the question
they were asked -- "Why didn't you try harder for the J1?" is totally
legitimate. Acting privileged and entitled to special treatment because they
are "from NZ" is just acting privileged and entitled, instead of choosing to
take responsibility to ensure they'd actually get the visa it worked for them
to have. Also, planning to have "colleagues at Northwestern" and be on a
tourist visa is clear indication that they weren't planning something which
was going to work, and that they knew this. These people were just gambling
the small probability they wouldn't get picked up, and then when they get
caught, they try to incorrectly blame "Homeland Security" for their situation,
instead of taking responsibility for having applied incorrectly.
Unfortunately, this choice to disown responsibility and pretend you are
powerless is a common deluded attitude. People get themselves into all kinds
of messes and then blame everyone except themselves. "The law must be
rewritten for me" is just an egomaniacal delusion of privilege and
entitlement.

~~~
retrogradeorbit
Have you ever connected to an open wifi before? Have you ever played a poker
game with friends at home for money? Have you ever sung happy birthday or
Christmas songs in public? Have you ever taken a pee outside? Have you ever
failed to update your drivers license when you move? Have you ever Jay-walked?

If you have you should be locked up, quite frankly! And don't go pretending
you don't know about the eight thousand pages of obscure statutes that apply
to you every day. Ignorance of the law is no excuse!

------
thobakr
What else would you expect?

------
comrade1
Just stop going to the u.s. Frankly, the place is a dump and its people are
ignorant and crude. I never thought I'd have an unironic conversation with
someone arguing against the existence of evolution until my last trip to the
u.s. They are superstitious and even the most liberal of them has politics to
the right of your government's fascist wing, and a bizarre attitude toward sex
where their behavior is nothing like their rhetoric.

~~~
Xorlev
That's a pretty broad brush to paint a country of 350+ million citizens.

~~~
comrade1
Just do a search on 'u.s. Education decline'.

Sure, there are always individuals that buck the trend but overall the u.s. Is
an embarrassment and getting worse.

Anecdotally, I am in the Midwest twice per year and have to listen to people
complaining about the Jews and the niggers, and about various conspiracies
about global warming, and how there's no way we're descended from monkeys.

I don't hear any of at shit where I live in Europe, except for some of the
racist stuff but in a more nuanced manner.

~~~
strictnein
F'en BS. You visit the "Midwest" twice a year and there's just people throwing
out ethnic slurs all over the place? And the most "liberal" people you're
talking to are far right fascists? Sorry, simply BS.

Stop making stuff up. You're not impressing anyone with your nonsense. I await
your even more strongly worded rebuttal to being called out. I'm sure it will
be super convincing.

~~~
comrade1
This is rural MN and NW WI, but even then do you find it hard to believe? 45%
of Americans believe in creationism and the u.s. has some of the worse race
relations on the planet. What sort of bubble do you live in?

~~~
strictnein
I've spent significant portions of my life in rural MN as that's where I was
born. I'm in rural MN and WI for 2-4 weeks a year now. My father is buried in
a speck on the map that has no stoplights or stop signs. So no bubble at all.

I understand anti-Americanism plays really well at a lot of places online
though. So keep the shtick going, I'm sure you'll impress someone.

~~~
comrade1
What's anti-American? Do you mean the racism? Or being against racism is anti-
American?

------
anon3_
I'm wondering why this person's anger and outrage is so special, she gets her
own article in the newspaper.

When people are jerks and rip me off - no one makes me a news article. And
that's the problem, in the eyes of the law - you're not this VIP.

I understand her frustration in getting turned around. The rules are the
rules. You wasted money on a ticket by hoping you could work on a tourist
visa. No, you don't get "let off" or special treatment. Always double check to
make sure you are using the correct visa!

Anyone who wants to see customs in action, I recommend the reality TV show
"Border Security", they are in UK, Canada and Australia:
[https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=border+security](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=border+security).

------
y_g
US Immigration has been throwing the book at people way, way before Bin Laden.
Sorry your feelings got hurt. Next time, pay attention.

~~~
xupybd
Yeah why would you want to fix the system and make it easy for people to do
things correctly and detect when they have made a mistake. Oh no wait that's
actually exactly what you'd want.

~~~
briandear
They didn't make a mistake. They clearly were aware that a J1 and a visa
waiver weren't the same thing. These were supposedly educated people. Why did
they think the J1 existed? I would be slightly more sympathetic if their first
language wasn't Ebglish and they weren't highly educated.

~~~
xupybd
NZ has three official language Ebglish is not one of them.

Sorry too hard to resist the cheap shot.

Edit: Sorry this is not meant to offend, I just thought it was funny.

------
briandear
I love the "U.S. Immigration is harsh and mean" meme generally promoted by
Canadian, West European and Aussie/NZ folks. Yet, it is interesting how those
people conveniently ignore how ridiculous and politically motivated the UK
system is. For example, allowing in radical Muslim clerics yet banning an
American radio talk show host. Or limiting Chinese dissident Ai Weiwei's visa
not because of anything intrinsic about him but because of Beijing's feelings.
Ai Weiwei is being treated unequally compared to other Chinese visitors. UK
immigration also has targeted certain nationalities for deportation to fill
charter planes. Let's not forget about the bloody nonsense at Calais. Then we
have Australian immigration policy as well.. This anti-US tripe is getting
old. The original author's comparisons to Gitmo were also inappropriate. She
wasn't getting water boarded and Jack Bauer wasn't sent to beat her. She was
detained because of a visa irregularity that she herself was the cause of. It
wasn't a clerical error; she knowingly attempted to enter the country under a
false pretense: she wasn't a tourist and she knew it. Sorry for the harsh
treatment but it doesn't compare at all to the treatment migrants receive in
Calais or when they are captured at sea by the Italians. The fact is that all
immigration situations are rather tough all over the world -- especially in
countries with extremely high demand and histories of overstays, fraud and
abuses.

~~~
serge2k
So rather than insisting that your country tries to actually do well you would
rather point a finger at someone else to say they are worse?

