
Americans Work 25% More Than Europeans, Study Finds - antouank
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-18/americans-work-25-more-than-europeans-study-finds
======
ajmurmann
I find it astonishing how positive Bloomberg tries to spin this:

 _People earn a wider range of incomes in the U.S., so “workers have an
incentive to try harder to move up the job ladder because a promotion is worth
more,” said Dora Gicheva_

-The income range in the US is so large that there are lots of people at the bottom end who have to work multiple jobs. How much does that have to do with the longer work hours, Bloomberg?

 _Generous pensions in Europe are also a strong factor in discouraging older
people from working, the study said. In the U.S., more people over 65 are
working than at any point in the past 50 years. The U.S.’s shift from
traditional pensions to 401(k) plans makes it harder for Americans to know
when it’s safe to retire._

-This sounds less like people in Europe are "discouraged" from working, rather than many Americans must work longer because they can't retire.

Edit: Formatting

~~~
jypepin
It's a very light analysis from me, so might not be fully true, but I live in
the US, now in Europe, and in Canada before that. You could also say Canada is
kind of in the middle.

Well, maybe correlation doesn't imply causation in that case but here is what
I can see:

\- US > Canada > Europe in terms of opportunities, be it starting salary, end-
of-career salaries, and everything in the middle such as promotions, personal
growth, etc. \- Europe > Canada > US in terms of social support \- Europe >
Canada > US in terms of work/life balance.

And it's interesting to see how things are different and it looks like there
IS causation.

\- People in the US work more

\- The separation between work and personal life In the US people all have
their emails/chats on their personal cellphone, will work on weekends without
much reason, will be talking about work with friends more, will show more
passion about their company, will show more ambition. In Europe, people seem
to take their job more as a secondary things AFTER their life. Their have less
coworkers-friends, they talk less about work, show less ambition about a
promotion/new job coming.

\- People seem to try harder at lower scale jobs in the US There is often the
excuse of the tips for waiters etc.. but it's the same for customer support
and things like that. When you call cust sup in Europe, the service is way
worst. People to try as hard to make the extra effort, etc.

Overall you really explicitly see and feel that most people just see their
current job as an end state, versus in the US people constantly work hard to
reach the next step and have more ambition.

I'm sure it's in part because there are indeed less opportunities (harder to
get promotions, salaries varies less, etc.) and it's harder to move from a
class to another compared to the US.

That's mostly my feeling, but it seems like it's so obvious... and Canada,
really, is in the middle of those 2 extremes.

~~~
RandomName2020
> it's harder to move from a class to another compared to the US.

Not true: social mobility in US is lower than in Europe and Canada.

~~~
endisukaj
> Not true: social mobility in US is lower than in Europe and Canada.

I can't speak about Canada but I seriously doubt that social mobility is
higher in Europe. Again, you can't generalize. It may be far easier to move
from a class to another in Germany than for example Italy or France.

~~~
coriny
It's a difficult thing to compare, so I wouldn't totally believe the absolute
comparisons, but generally most countries in Europe are considered to have
higher social mobility than the US. The exceptions are Italy & the UK, with
maybe France level pegging with the US.

e.g. [https://www.oecd.org/eco/growth/NERO-22-June-2015-income-
ine...](https://www.oecd.org/eco/growth/NERO-22-June-2015-income-inequality-
social-mobility-and-economic-growth.pdf)

------
webaholic
How happy are they working that extra 25%? They are richer, sure. But I don't
think being rich is an indicator of your overall state.

Looking at [1], you can see that people in european countries come out on top
of the happiness index. One could argue that working less is actually better
for productivity and overall happiness.

[1] [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-23/these-
are-...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-23/these-are-the-
happiest-countries-in-the-world)

~~~
mbillie1
It's almost like working 60+ hour weeks churning out CRUD apps to get a rich
person richer isn't the secret path to happiness or something.

~~~
mtberatwork
The amount of time spent commuting certainly doesn't help either.

~~~
wldcordeiro
Commute time should really be considered part of work. I wouldn't be making
the trip if it weren't for going to the job so why shouldn't it be considered
work hours?

~~~
massysett
Because you have considerable influence over how long your commute time is. I
can choose to live in a tiny apartment across the street from my job and walk
to work, or I can choose a large house and drive 50 minutes to work. That's a
personal decision. The worker who chooses the 50 minutes isn't entitled to
anything more than the one who lives close by.

~~~
DesiLurker
not really, once you have kids in picture its a whole different math. also the
whole buying vs renting thing. to drive the seriousness of this home,
Elizabeth warren did a study back when she was a prof & found that for every
10 point deviation from median in school performance house prices went up by
20 points.

~~~
wldcordeiro
Yeah the amount of influence you have is very minimal, especially when you
consider changing jobs, are you supposed to move each time you do? I think
that is an often claimed adage (like the whole trickle down effect one) that
is much less true in reality.

~~~
massysett
Don't change jobs then. You have that choice. There are jobs I will not accept
because the commute is not acceptable to me.

------
untog
I've worked in both Europe and the US, and in my opinion, US workers are far
worse off for it. You earn more money in the US, you can advance faster, but
you have next-to-no vacation time (and even when you do, you're still often
expected to be reachable by e-mail), maternity/paternity leave is pitiful, and
you have to pay large health insurance premiums, amongst other things.

I know that isn't the case for everyone, but on average I'd advise someone to
take Europe over the US, just for quality of life alone.

~~~
lintiness
some of us love work.

~~~
tirant
And you can still do that in Europe, no one is stopping you from working more.

And even better, as you have more free time, you can use it for your own
projects.

~~~
creshal
> And you can still do that in Europe, no one is stopping you from working
> more.

Well, unions do. But that's a good thing, it prevents a race to burnout.

~~~
ajmurmann
Does that actually apply to every field? I've only worked briefly as a
software developer in Germany and not full time, but I never got the
impression that unions would realistically stop anyone in that field from
working till midnight. If you are working as a factory worker for example
that's of course a totally different story. However, I doubt that people in
that kind of job regularly decide to put in a few extra hours on some days and
are usually on the clock.

~~~
matt4077
If you're in management (defined as having authority to hire/fire IIRC) you're
exempt from the law, same if you're self-employed.

For a regular programming job, I believe the the law applies (no more than
10h/day and (8h/weekday average over 6 months). Practically, it only matters
if somebody cares about it which only happens systematically on larger
companies with a union presence.

But: you're responsible for your employees and they can not waive this right.
If you regularly tolerate it, you may run the risk of someone changing his
mind after a few years and getting you into trouble, trouble being up to 15000
Euro in penalties and (theoretically) a year in prison if someone was harmed.

~~~
joncrocks
In the UK you can opt-out of the EU working time directive.

------
matrix_escape
I think its a lot more than 25%. In Sweden where I work, people are relaxed at
their jobs. Coming in at 8.30 am and leaving at 4.30 pm with a full lunch
break in the middle is normal. Taking a couple of coffee breaks or ping pong
matches and chatting with collegues is normal. There is casual talk all day
long and bosses are also leaving work early to pick up children, spend time
with the family and just enjoy their lives. I think something around 35 hours
is what we do around here, but getting payed for 40 of course.

The American culture honestly seems totally crazy to me. There is a massive
difference in how you view yourselves over there. If you dont succeed at
making some kind of a career, you feel like losers? Please step out of the
matrix a little bit guys. Life is not getting some position in a company so
you can work even more. Its about finding happiness.

~~~
thebspatrol
This is pretty standard in the US, especially if you don't work in some
MegaCorp cog-in-the-machine type of situation.

I think a good percentage of people working their asses off and working 60
hours a week are people who ARE actually successful. I don't blame them for
turning work into a hobby.

~~~
embiggen
What? Where are these 8:30-4:30-with-a-nice-long-lunch jobs?

In my experience, smaller (non bigcorp) companies have to fight to survive and
don't have these luxuries..

~~~
thebspatrol
Is it really so unusual for someone with relatively marketable skills to have
a standard 8 hour work day with a proper lunch break?

------
jackcosgrove
Higher earning workers in the US work more hours than lower earning workers.

"Between 1979 and 2002, the frequency of long work hours increased by 14.4
percentage points among the top quintile of wage earners, but fell by 6.7
percentage points in the lowest quintile."

There are insinuations in this thread that the reason Americans work more
hours is because the working poor have to work long hours to make ends meet.
However, "There was no increase at all in work hours among high-school
dropouts," from 1979 to 2002.

Americans working long hours is increasingly a higher income phenomenon. Which
means those workers have more disposable income they could trade for shorter
hours if they chose to.

[http://www.nber.org/digest/jul06/w11895.html](http://www.nber.org/digest/jul06/w11895.html)

~~~
ryandrake
I work long hours because if I didn't there's a line of people outside the
door who will.

~~~
jackcosgrove
European unemployment rates are higher than the US unemployment rate. Is there
really a line of people waiting to take your job? If you are in software the
employment market in the US is pretty tight right now.

------
NietTim
An old infographic I had bookmarked which shows this pretty clearly:
[https://i.imgur.com/Vkd1I01.png](https://i.imgur.com/Vkd1I01.png) Also shows
that working more != more pay (I'm Dutch, maybe you can see why I bookmarked
it)

~~~
endisukaj
I find it ironic that Greece is the third hardest-working country in there.
What with the whole stereotype of the lazy Greek.

------
snovv_crash
Is it just me, or is the article looking a bit too hard for reasons why US
workers having longer working hours is a good thing?

------
donretag
I would love to live and work in Italy (or any other Mediterranean climate
country), but there are simply no [tech] jobs. And what few software jobs
there are are not interesting at all and pay very little.

I value my time and I am willing to take a pay cut to live in Europe, but the
jobs are not simply there. Why can there be no middle ground? For now, the
plan is to work hard and retire early. Real estate price chages in Europe can
be considered flat compared to the US.

~~~
sguav
FPGA designer (and embedded sys FW) living in Italy here, must say that tech
jobs are possibly some of the few jobs that you can be safe to find here! Now,
if tech means webdev I have friends that struggle to pay the bills by
freelancing with that, but going down the stack you find much more demand (I
have personally found A LOT of demand for EE). Consider that I'm speaking from
the northern part of Italy, no idea about the south tech-jobs situation.

~~~
nathan_f77
Are your freelancing friends expats, or Italian citizens?

~~~
sguav
Both. I guess the issue is that freelancing is not a thing here. Those that
get into webdev through a company (especially marketing or nice startups) seem
to be doing really well, but they are few to my knowledge.

~~~
nathan_f77
Oh, I see what you mean, you're talking about freelancing for local companies.
That's funny, my mindset is all about working remotely for companies in other
countries, especially the US. I'm currently living in Thailand, where
freelancing for a local company would mean earning something like $10-15 per
hour.

I would like to live and work in Italy as a freelancer, but I can only stay
for 90 days at a time. Do you know of any ways to stay longer?

EDIT: Wow, I should have done some more research. Italy has a "long-term
visa". But more exciting than that, Germany has an actual “self-employment”
visa for freelancers. I might start with Germany then.

~~~
mahyarm
Berlin is a pretty fun place.

------
V-2
The number of hours doesn't tell the whole story though. Working cultures
differ a great deal. You may put in longer hours, but then it's more laidback,
with more socializing etc. whereas somewhere else it's clock-in, work, clock-
out, no fooling about.

~~~
pessimizer
I'm not sure why you think that European workplaces are stricter than US
workplaces, or that US jobs are generally laid back.

~~~
V-2
I didn't say I think that. If anything, I hinted at it as a possibility worth
considering (not phrased as extremely as "US jobs are generally laid back").

It should be looked into if you want to put things in perspective.

In Germany business culture is certainly one of more intense focus, at least
in office jobs. Not that it's representative of the whole Europe, of course.

Still, raw numbers don't say the whole story. That's why such findings should
be taken with some distance.

~~~
pessimizer
I understand that different things are different, but you seem to be appealing
to the law of averages.

------
slavoingilizov
_In the U.S., more people over 65 are working than at any point in the past 50
years_

Also, more people over 65 are alive, compared to any point in the past 50
years. Inability to draw insight from data is the 2nd biggest problem of media
these days (the first is the linkbait/profit/ad broken business model)

~~~
matt4077
Yeah - they're talking percentages:
[http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-13/-i-ll-
neve...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-13/-i-ll-never-retire-
americans-break-record-for-working-past-65)

These complaints about the supposed incompetence and/or bias of today's
journalism are really getting old, but thanks for highlighting how idiotic
they sometimes are.

~~~
ZoF
The bias and incompetence is getting old as well.

------
tristor
As an American currently working remotely while traveling in Europe I have
seen some of this first hand. I think there's pros and cons to the aspects
I've observed.

\- Probably the most obvious is meals. In most European countries its not
uncommon to take a 2-hour lunch break and to take 2-3 hours for dinner. But at
the same time, the quality of food is higher, meals tend to be larger social
affairs (not something you do alone), and slower more relaxed meals probably
aid digestion. This contrasts sharply to the obsession with fast food/quick
service meals in the US that are mostly taken alone and on the run. In some
cases it was frustratingly difficult for me to find a restaurant with quick
enough service that I wasn't feeling like I was letting my own team in the US
down.

\- Transportation is less car-centric. What this means though is that a lot of
people have a longer, if somewhat more relaxed commute. For instance, rather
than a 15-20 minute drive if you live "near work", you might have a 10 minute
walk + 40 minute train/metro ride. Sure, you /could/ be working on the metro
in theory, or checking emails on your phone while walking. But people don't,
and in a way that's great. It gives you a few moments of wakefulness where you
don't have to focus and you don't have to think about work.

\- Holidays. I'm not really sure how this works out in small and broad
technical teams like Operations. But it seems like given the amount of holiday
time Europeans are granted and take that there's probably someone out on
holidays on your team at any given moment. On the other hand, I imagine that
there are less stress-related deaths in Europe.

These are all just my first-hand observations, I haven't really dug into the
stats around it, but I can imagine how these and other factors could easily
lead to an overall reduction in work hours or even productivity vs American
workers. On the other hand, I've found Europeans tend to be healthier and
happier than Americans, so maybe it's not such a big deal?

------
gervase
Does anyone know of a similar comparison that includes South and East Asian
countries? From my personal conversations, those areas will see longer hours
AND lower pay than the U.S., and I'd be interested to see that broken down
statistically.

------
kilon
USA problems are well known for decades now

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM)

A glowing example of how a huge economy can also be a terrible economy . That
25% is only the tip of the iceberg.

If Russia is the fall of communism , USA is the fall of capitalism. Two
extremely stupid economic and political models.

Is it a coincidence that both countries have the most rich in the world and a
terrible track record on wealth and income equality, workers and human rights
?

Nope

~~~
AnimalMuppet
> Is it a coincidence that both countries have the most rich in the world...

It is not _true_ that both countries have the most rich in the world[sic].

Russia was never a rich country like the US - not before Communism, not
during, and not after. It could create a good facade and a strong military,
but that's not the same thing...

~~~
ionised
I believe he meant rich individuals, billionaires, oligarchs.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Ah, I see. I agree, that probably is what he meant.

------
sguav
I struggle to digest this article. Considering I'm an Italian who has ever
worked 40+ hours a week (non tech jobs got me to 60+ hours/wk...). And then,
when I lived in England, everyone seemed to be doing at most 35 hrs/wk. I
understand that these are statistics, but I can't really match it to my
experience (but, hey, maybe this tells me to complain less and enjoy spare
time more!)

~~~
ythl
Italians have the opposite problem - _too much_ spare time (at least, all at
once). When I lived in Italy I was astonished that the entire country could
effectively shut down for an entire month (ferragosto). I mean, come on, at
least stagger your vacations so that everyone doesn't take leave all at the
same time...

~~~
e12e
The same could probably be said for Norway too. I think it's a good thing,
mind. Everyone gets 5 weeks off now, in general. usually 4 weeks in summer
(the rest to be used for Easter, Christmas or at employees discretion in
agreement with the employer), that matches up with the school holiday. I
suppose there'd technically be room to shift those weeks a bit, but then how
can you make sure everyone in a household have holidays together, assuming two
working parents?

------
jdc0589
Europeans have this shit figured out then. 25% less work means stopping at
3:00PM every day for me (unless you count the difference as block vacations).
This would be LIFECHANGING. I get bored and stop concentrating around that
time every day as is.

~~~
wmt
The workdays in Europe are your pretty typical 8 hour days, the difference I
think comes from the 15-30 annual vacation days per year, plus all the public
holidays.

~~~
room271
This. Before I switched to 4 days a week (to do non-work stuff) I had 31 days
holiday not including public holidays. I really value this extra time. The
lack of holidays was one reason (albeit not the only one) I decided not to
work in San Francisco when I had the chance in the past.

------
a_humean
This report is pretty pointless, and is at best a puff piece for an American
audience. American workers are some of the most productive workers in the
world, but working hours are not the sole reason. Working hours really do not
tell you that much on their own.

In Europe, Greece works the most hours, and yet they are hardly an economic
success story. French people work fewer hours than British people, and yet
France has better productivity measures. Italy works the fewest hours, but
they are stuck in an economic mire. Industrial Era British factory workers
worked many more hours than British factory workers today, and yet I'm certain
that today's factory workers are much better value. There isn't a meaningful
correlation to be found around working hours independent of other factors.

------
johnohara
_...according to the unpublished working paper (PDF)_

Why would Bloomberg release this as news?

------
LVB
Europe? I would love to even get to the 26 hours/week that my fellow Americans
are supposedly working according to the chart.

------
erikbye
I’m from Norway. It has always been something of a given, from our
perspective, that Americans work on average more hours per week than we do.
It’s something you hear all the time. Also, that in the U.S. it’s more common
to relocate for a job, and, accept longer commutes.

I have a full-time position, and work a maximum of 37.5 hours every week.

------
didibus
Read a previous study on this same topic, and they hypothesized that it was
due to cultural differences. In the US, socialization happens mostly through
coworker interaction, and people's worth is assessed by the job you have and
the money you make. Where as in Europe, socialization happens mostly out of
work, in bars, coffee shops, etc. And people's worth is judged more from their
hobbies, knowledge and social qualities.

I thought that was a pretty good hypothesis. It even reflects in the political
tendencies each place demonstrate. A lot of people in the US aspire to be CEOs
or rich, most people in France for example aspire to have a good glass of wine
on the coast of France playing bocce ball all day.

To give some context, the other study I refer to found that Americans are
happier when they work longer, while European were happier when they worked
least.

------
neves
Its time to start a world backslash to defend American workers. Like we do to
ask for good working conditions in Asia.

During the 17th century England started to fight against slavery. One of the
reasons is that with the Industrial Revolution, the only way to compete with
them were with slave labor. Maybe we should combat slavery in USA.

------
kilon
Well if as a country you seriously suck at wealth equality and defending basic
human and worker rights that 25% seems pretty low. Stupidity after all loves
hard work.

Of all this is just old news for researchers

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM)

------
alexk7
The article makes it seem like the US is where people work the most. It is
not. The selection of countries make their graph misleading. See
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time)

------
rue
One interesting thing is that “25% more work” is taken at face value.

In my experience, that 25% does _not_ equate to 25% more productive in any
non-assembly line job.

Americans are busier, spend more time at work, and don’t get any more work
done.

------
gozur88
>The U.S.’s shift from traditional pensions to 401(k) plans makes it harder
for Americans to know when it’s safe to retire.

That's not really true. Traditional pensions rely on the financial health of
whoever is paying the pension. Personally, I'd rather rely on a 401(k) than
find out in my dotage the company I was depending on to pay the bills went
belly up.

The real problem with retiring under 65 is health care. The situation is so
muddled now it's impossible to predict what a health care plan or a serious
illness is going to cost you five years hence.

------
skywhopper
The data is ambiguous as presented. The chart footnote says "Overall hours per
person, not just for people with jobs incorporating time at work along with
retirement, vacation, unemployment, and other time spent out of the
workforce." which does not tell me if it counts children and is still vague
about whether it includes adults who have no intention or desire to find a
job.

The data given is in the article is far too sparse to draw any conclusions
from. I hope the paper it's based on is more explicit and careful.

------
jnmandal
One crazy takeaway from this: Greeks work longer hours than Germans

~~~
heisenbit
Indeed. There are some odd numbers in these graphs which make me a bit
skeptical of the conclusions.

~~~
romanovcode
The stereotype of lazy Greek is one of the most stupidest in EU.

------
cbsmith
Bizarre. The study apparently did not collect data from Canada. That would be
a good way to compare against the comparatively fewer differences between
Canada & the US.

------
amai
Maybe relevant: "Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy
work culture"

[http://www.vox.com/2015/7/21/8974435/switzerland-work-
life-b...](http://www.vox.com/2015/7/21/8974435/switzerland-work-life-balance)

------
havetocharge
Reading the comments here, it is amazing to discover how many people dislike
their work. When I was younger, I too had my share of jobs that I wasn't
overly thrilled about, but with time I've found a great deal of fulfillment in
what I do, and I truly hope the same for others.

------
spectrum1234
The article fails to mention culture which is obviously the #1 reason for
differences in the first place.

------
ivanstame
I dont' find this to be a good thing, not something you should brag about...

------
the_watcher
> U.S. workers not only put in more hours than workers do almost anywhere
> else.

I understand that they're intending to compare us to other Western nations,
but there's simply no way this is true globally.

------
TulliusCicero
But do they adjust for median age? The US is probably younger than western
Europe on average due to immigration/slightly higher birthrate, which means
fewer retired people who don't work.

------
cletus
Thing is, in the software world at least, you earn >25% more than Europeans in
the US. Just look at salaries in London. Given the extraordinary cost of
living, salaries are pitiful.

Why is that?

~~~
ythl
Because European governments take a lot more out of your salary before it
reaches you in exchange for social services (pensions, healthcare, etc).
Unlike America where you are expected to either drop a stack of bills just to
see the doctor or die in the streets.

~~~
vinay427
About 90% of Americans overall have health insurance. Most full-time tech jobs
in the US at the companies that would pay more than European salaries will
include sufficient health insurance. I'm not sure who you're referring to
dying in the streets because of a lack of medical treatment due to financial
limitations.

~~~
Merad
More and more Americans are getting stuck with High Deductible Health Plans,
which for all intents don't exist until you fork over several thousand dollars
to meet your deductible (excepting a limited range of "preventable care" items
that are covered).

~~~
shaftoe
As someone without chronic expensive health needs, I've been on a HDHP with an
HSA for almost a decade. They're great.

With a low deductible, I'm paying more up front so I can pay less if I need
care. With an HSA and HDHP, I'm paying less for insurance and putting the
difference into an interest-bearing account that I keep with me. Two different
jobs that offered HDHPs also offered HSA contributions or matches.

Over time, my HSA has grown to roughly 3x my family's deductible. Tell me how
I'm losing out?

------
Koshkin
For a humorous yet insightful comparison between life in and outside the US I
recommend watching Michael Moore's _Where to Invade Next_.

------
dsabanin
Rat race is real and it's speeding up.

------
overcast
Less happy, certainly plausible. The only world superpower, definitely. While
I don't have any evidence to back any of that up, it certainly appears the
nation working the most, has the biggest economy/power. Obviously money/power
isn't everything though.

~~~
vertex-four
I'm not entirely certain that a nation as a whole being a superpower is good
for the people if the people living in it are miserable. "The economy" is not,
in fact, a direct measure of how happy people are - it's an indicator which
may have something to do with it in a broad sense, but can be gamed,
especially once you get down to attempting to maximise arbitrary single
numbers (GDP, stock market indicators, etc).

~~~
overcast
I really don't think the US as a whole is "miserable". Anyone living in this
country certainly can not complain about how they lucked out. Sure it has its
problems, but we don't have to worry about wars on our soil, widespread
famine, warlords, human rights violations, etc. Are there better quality of
life countries? Debatable. But there is a reason people are still trying to
get into the country to make a better life for themselves.

~~~
ionised
There are demonstrably happier countries, sure.

------
pcmaffey
It's called the American dream for a reason.

~~~
ionised
because it isn't real?

------
raarts
Americans live to work, Europeans work to live.

'Nuff said.

------
contingencies
Bloomberg is terrible. If it's not a nearly baseless hatchet job on China,
it's a nearly baseless hatchet job on Europe. Next up? Canada.

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yAnonymous
* 25% less efficient

