
Ask HN: I got let go this morning. What should I do next? - thecolorblue
I went in to work this morning, in downtown Cleveland, ordered a BLT for our free lunch friday, and got called into a meeting. I was told my position was being removed (probably to cut costs, although they did not say), and I needed to clean off my desk. I&#x27;m a javascript developer. I built a large angular application while there, but it is now built and there are other developers who can support it.<p>As far as I see it, I have this great opportunity to break out of the regular 9-5 job world, which I have always wanted to do. I have been working weekends on pearmarket.co, which is a website for small farmers to more easily promote their products online (I have recently open sourced the core of the project at https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;thecolorblue&#x2F;beetpress). Unfortunately, it is not currently in a place where I can dedicate all of my time to it and see any income. I would say I am 3 months of solid work away from having a good beta. I do not see this as an option as it would clear out most of my savings, and leave me in mostly the same position I am in now.<p>I have looked into doing freelance work, but as I am self taught my CS skills are not as solid as other developers, and my design skills are just about average. I am more product focused, I try to work as closely to the end user as possible and clearly define what they need. There does not seem to be a need for freelance product people (is this a good assumption?). It&#x27;s also important to note that I am 28 and just got engaged. Moving is an option, but living on a spare couch for a couple months is not.<p>So I really have two questions. What would you do in my situation (would you stay in a smaller city?), and if you could start over in web development, what would you focus on?
======
evo_9
So my guess is this is the first time you've been let go, or this is the first
time as an adult (post-college) during your profession that you've been let
go.

Relax, it happens. This doesn't mean you aren't a terrific developer and
person to work with. Take a little time to think about what you've worked on,
what you've accomplished in the past 6-12 months I think you'll see what a
great position you really are in. As others have said it's a golden time for
both developers and particularly Javascript coders.

Once you've had a little time to reflect on all this then dust off your
resume, update your linked in, and basically get ready for a lot of recruiters
calling you.

If you have the means financially don't rush, take your time and really
interview your next potential employer as if you were hiring them.

You'll be amazed what kind of work is out there if you take your time versus
jumping into the next gig you are offered.

Lastly, at 28 I would seriously consider a startup. You are in a great
position to take that risk right now. Since you aren't in a tech hub like San
Francisco it might take a little more time to find something there, unless you
want to relocate. Perhaps look under Gigs in craigslist, I've found local
(Denver) startups looking for coders that way in the past.

~~~
coned88
What's the benefit of a startup? Seems like more hours for less pay while
always needing to get things done. I fail to see the appeal. They just have
lunches and dinners which appeal to people.

~~~
daxfohl
Never getting a raise because that's not built into their budget and there's
not a system around it. Having to beg for vacation time and getting maybe a
week a year. And after a few years or a few ventures, your friends at big
corps are already starting to talk about retirement and pensions, and you
realize that's an extra million you gave up. But hey, you can wear shorts!

~~~
wombatpm
I work for fortune 300 non tech company (despite their NASDAQ listing). Our
pension program has been frozen - no new employees can join and years of
service no longer accrue additional benefit. There has not been a 401k match
in four years, the continuing education program ended with the merger 10 years
ago. And the healthcare is marginally better than Obamacare. And raises. Last
year they were 0.75%.

A startup looks better and better.

~~~
frostmatthew
I'm guessing when most people [on HN] are comparing big companies to startups
they're thinking of tech companies. What you describe may not be unusual for
large non-tech companies - but it's pretty horrible compared to large tech
ones.

If it's feasible you may want to consider looking for a new job. [And FWIW
some great advice I got when starting out as a developer was never work where
software is a cost-center].

~~~
fat0wl
This cost-center point is key. I work for one of the big international
electronics corps as an enterprise web dev, but they have no interest in the
quality of our work. They don't understand it, they have no belief in codebase
maintainability (everything is new development or bugfix, basically as soon as
an app is written it becomes frozen legacy code that will sit for 5+ years
until a rewrite is finally budgeted).

A lot of the superiors they hire really affect the architectural policies of
the company. For example, we can use Spring & jQuery but little else. Now they
are trying to write apps with heavier front-end & getting into trouble cuz its
a mess of jQuery callbacks with no real js framework. Why? The main architect
has never heard of React, Angular, backbone, etc. (not to mention the fact
that I'm one of like 2 devs who can actually write js, and unfortunately the
other does not possess the equally rare skill: "uses proper design patterns").
You'd think I was joking until you met a bunch of corporate consultant
programmers.

Basically, these companies try to boil web development into an old-school "IT"
process but the level of intellect is astonishingly low. I've been lookin for
a new gig at a tech company for quite a while but it was tough to make a
change cuz this is my first gig out of grad school, had to prove myself a bit
& build resume.

The only relief is that the corp "cost-center" IT kindof job I have is such a
mess that its a good place to study & relax, pace of work is veeeeery slow.

~~~
jhildings
> I've been lookin for a new gig at a tech company for quite a while but it
> was tough to make a change cuz this is my first gig out of grad school, had
> to prove myself a bit & build resume.

Why not try to apply for some jobs now? You don't know how good your resume is
until you try it

~~~
fat0wl
heh thanks for the words of encouragement. i'm going to try now, yes. but
basically.... to be fair i'm getting paid a pretty good wage so i really just
need some experience to avoid looking like a dabbler. I'm looking at senior
level positions now & they seem to want to see that you're really committed to
a certain type of code.

I went from research Matlab / dabbling in C# at a dayjob, to RoR, to
javascript, to now pretty hardcore backend Java (EE, Spring, high concurrency
for last 2 yrs), trying to move into Clojure a bit more. Most well-funded
companies don't seem to like polyglots from what I can tell... But yeah I will
be looking for the ones that do, plus I am studying C++ to make a bit of a
more lateral move into audio digital signal processing / data-mining / machine
learning.

I don't know... companies tell me I'm too expensive for the level of
experience I have, yet all the high-paid seniors I work with are awful so I
don't want to lower my salary expectations unless I can find a company thats
actually worth sacrificing for.

------
jacquesm
Try to retain your former boss as a customer, likely they'll need you two
weeks time.

~~~
tonglil
Can someone explain this more in detail?

It's bad ethics to write stuff that only you can maintain, so what other
methods can one achieve this/what do you mean?

~~~
jacquesm
Of course it's bad ethics to write stuff that only you can maintain. But if
you built it, regardless of how well you documented it and how easy someone
else _could_ maintain it you're the current expert and by the sound of the OP
the rest of the team is not in his league. So the employer thinks to cut costs
now that the major work has been done and they're in 'maintenance mode'. That
might work, for a while. And then in a few weeks when they want something a
bit more elaborate it may very well turn out that letting the OP go was a
mistake.

Being good at something (or at least, much better than your co-workers) is the
other method you're looking for, no need to resort to evil stuff.

Likely this was reflected in the OPs salary, note that he's let go but his co-
workers are not, so probably he was making more per hour than they. And now
he'll make more per hour still and his former boss will be more than happy to
pay once he realizes that OP could turn him down just as easy as he was let
go.

Don't burn your bridges...

~~~
keithpeter
And the OP's former boss gets to pay for the actual hours needed to implement
the desired feature rather than a monthly cheque.

Could be a win both ways in that sense. OA gets a customer with a regular
_need_ and existing investment. Former boss gains flexibility and can show
headcount reduction.

------
sampl
If you want to stay in the midwest and build for farmers, come join us at
FarmLogs (YC12).

farmlogs.com/jobs

~~~
numo16
Looks like you guys are doing some awesome stuff! I'll have to keep you in
mind if I ever decide to leave my cushy DevOps job in Troy.

------
ryanSrich
> I have looked into doing freelance work, but as I am self taught my CS
> skills are not as solid as other developers, and my design skills are just
> about average

Skills have very little baring on success as a freelancer. 99.99% of clients
will not care what language, framework, algorithm or pattern you use to create
their product.

The biggest issue as a freelancer is clients. Clients are absolute hell.

~~~
midnightmonster
Clients generally don't care about or understand your technology choices.
People and process management are at least as important to freelance success
as programming or design skill. That much I definitely agree with.

I wouldn't describe my clients as hell, though--not by a long shot. But I've
been freelancing full time for seven years, moonlighting five before that, and
I've learned to avoid (and am able to do without) bad clients for the most
part.

Way back in the beginning, when I didn't much know what I was doing and sold
even that work way too cheap, there were some pretty bad times.

~~~
ryanSrich
It just takes a certain type of person to be a freelancer that can deal with
clients, and I am not that person. I had "good" high paying clients that were
still not fun to work with. It's probably less about them and more about me
wanting to control every aspect of the product.

------
bjr-
1) Sprint on a side project using tech you're excited about to keep you
motivated while you're looking for jobs in parallel. Don't limit your job
search geographically but also don't rush to leave unless the opportunity is
worth it.

2) ClojureScript, React, Datomic are my preferences. A well-designed language
with JS as a compilation target, React Native, and a graph database with ACID
guarantees and scalable reads are powerful tools.

My story:

I was fired 2 weeks after moving to a suburb ~90 min from nyc (employer had
ok'd remote work, oh well). I came up with a good side project using all the
technologies I was excited about and sprinted on that while I 1) signed up for
unemployment, 2) updated resume, 3) updated linkedin, 4) started looking at
freelancing marketplaces, 5) go to all the relevant meetups, etc. This worked
really well because it gave me something fun to focus on while grinding
through all these job channels.

3 weeks later I found a local job using some of the technologies I was excited
about (Clojure, ClojureScript and Datomic!) and I'm working there now. The
market is nuts.

------
dustingetz
> I am self taught my CS skills are not as solid as other developers

There are a lot of, like, regular companies in a lot of regular, not silicon
valley cities, that hire regular developers working on boring software
products for a very good salary. You'll very likely get a raise out of this.
Don't freak out, work on your open source thing for a couple weeks while you
set up five interviews. Once you have an offer you can step back and relax,
and decide what you want to do.

------
aantix
Success with clients will have little to do with your technical chops.

Hand hold them through the design process, be firm about informing when you
think they are making the wrong decision, overly attribute the success of the
project to them.

Nobody sues a doctor that has been kind to them.

Everybody loves a freelancer/consultant that gets a job done, is humble and
makes everyone look like a success.

------
rabbimarshak
1\. Realize that as a developer you will be in high demand in the workforce,
surely you will find something better in no time.

2\. Work on your startup idea / prototype during this downtime. It doesn't
have to be perfect, just hacked together well enough to provide value to
someone.

3\. Brush up your skills on sites like Codeacademy, W3C, Tutsplus, etc. Take a
few free online university / MOOC courses.

4\. Sift through projects on Odesk / Elance. You may find some part time work
that may provide some supplemental income while at the same time improving
your dev skills.

5\. Hustle. Knock on doors. Be proactive. Let your passions shine through.
Don't take no for an answer.

~~~
dminor
> Sift through projects on Odesk / Elance. You may find some part time work
> that may provide some supplemental income while at the same time improving
> your dev skills.

You're probably better off taking unemployment and working on some quick
projects to spiff up your github account. I experimented with Odesk/Elance for
side income and the best job I managed to find was $20/hr.

~~~
rabbimarshak
Ah, the American way: Why work when you can get the same pay from the
taxpayers pocket without having to?

I rather work at McDonalds for half that @dminor and still have my pride, than
to be a burden on society.

~~~
dminor
thecolorblue has already paid unemployment insurance, via his employer, for
exactly the situation he's in now. He is his own burden.

------
lojack
Also based out of Cleveland -- feel free to contact me privately if you'd like
to be put in touch with a few people.

My suggestion would be to go to some of the meetup groups. CleRB, ClePY,
NodeJS, Burning River Developers, there's plenty of others. Dont' be scared to
go outside of your area of expertise. Check out some of the startup groups...
LaunchHouse, Bizdom, Flash Starts.

------
sogen
Pearmarket looks confusing, but honestly, just launch it. Remove stuff and
ship.

btw, map doesn't load:
[https://order.pearmarket.co/map](https://order.pearmarket.co/map)

About page is very very interesting, my suggestion: move the Offers and Needs
to the frontpage, that looks like one of the most important things in the
whole site.

~~~
thecolorblue
Thanks for the feedback. pearmarket.co was kind of thrown together for this
small beta test we ran in november. I haven't taken the time to update it.

------
7Figures2Commas
> I have looked into doing freelance work, but as I am self taught my CS
> skills are not as solid as other developers, and my design skills are just
> about average. I am more product focused, I try to work as closely to the
> end user as possible and clearly define what they need.

A couple of points if you choose to go the freelance path:

1\. _Very_ few clients will care about your CS skills. If you can develop
commercially viable solutions that work, which it sounds like you can, you're
ahead of 90% the freelancers out there. Dirty secret: a lot of people with CS
backgrounds don't write beautiful code and couldn't architect a commercially
viable application on their own to save their lives.

2\. A lot of freelance developers are incapable of working with clients to
shape product, and a lot who can don't like doing this work. The people who
make the most money as solos are those who can craft solutions, not those who
crank out code. So it sounds like you have skills and interests that would
serve you well.

Good luck!

~~~
beslinger
Very much agree with the second point. And not just how it relates to the
actual project work, as a freelancer, you also need to be prepared to do a lot
of things that aren't development. Tools and consultants are available to
help, but invoicing, insurance (if applicable, depends on your client types),
taxes, proposals, etc etc all have to be overseen by you if not actually done
by you. Personally I have been fine with those tradeoffs, retaining a high
degree of autonomy in exchange for some less than interesting tasks. But it's
a tradeoff you have to be willing to make if freelancing is going to be the
source of your livelihood.

Edit to add: especially if the target client js less than savvy, they're going
to really appreciate working with a consultant who has the skillset the OP
does. Frequently (and sometimes frustratingly) less savvy clients can take a
very wide view of what a web consultant should be providing for them.
Marketing as a product development and management guru can absolutely become a
viable business as a freelancer. There are tons of other freelancers with
other specialities whom you can sub to (if the budget and agreement allows) to
fill out any gaps you may have in specific areas. Particularly things like
design and UI that lend themselves to well-defined scopes and deliverables.

------
donw
Freelancing is not about having top-tier CS skills or being an amazing
designer. Those _help_ , but they aren't what gets you hired.

Companies will hire you because You Are A Likeable Person That Gets Shit Done.

Both of those things matter. If you have zero people skills, you will not
close deals. And if you can't Get Shit Done, you will quickly poison your
network, which is where the best jobs come from.

~~~
Vadoff
From my experience, having top-tier CS skills is definitely a harder requisite
than being a "likeable person" in the hiring process. Yes, companies are
looking for culture-fit and making sure you're not a total weirdo, but hard
skills will always trump how sociable you are.

Additionally, "getting shit done" is very hard to measure unless the company
is asking for contract work before extending an offer (which is rare) - so it
again comes down to lots of technical questions which test your CS and
language-specific skills.

------
aercolino
It's funny to see how many comments advise about beginning a Start Up. Of
course, this is a Start Up forum. If this was a farmers forum, would many
advise about beginning a farm?

------
pseudometa
1) Sign up for unemployment. It takes a little while to start getting checks,
but it will help extend your savings.

2) Relax a bit and get your head together.

3) Go on a trip (you'll be starting from scratch at a new company, so use the
time for a bit of a vacation)

4) Polish your resume & LinkedIn profile

5) Broaden your horizons geographically and interview at lots of different
locations around the country and choose something you love.

~~~
agilecoder
Please be aware that if you do (1) and also do (3) you may be committing
Unemployment Insurance Fraud. Most states require you to not only be actively
searching for work, but to be "Able and Available" to work and frequently
investigations and audits turn up fraudulent UI claims on this basis. Even
though much of job searching is online and can be done anywhere, the
assumption is that if you are out of state, you weren't available to work in
your home state that week.

Source: [http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/collecting-
unemployme...](http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/collecting-unemployment-
are-you-able-32445.html)

~~~
hn_user2
I did this. I highly recommend using the time to take a vacation. And by
vacation, I mean searching for jobs in other states and countries.

I disagree with your interpretation of "able to available".

Even nolo is not 100% on this: Vacations and travel MAY mean you are
"unavailable" to work.

I am not a lawyer, and this is only my non-lawyer non official, non-
professional opinion of what I relied on for myself.

1) Jobs are available all over the country and all over the world. 2) If you
are actively applying and interviewing and able and willing to take the next
flight home in the event of an offer or unwillingness by a company to
interview you over Skype.

So for me, I had a justification. If the state did not agree with me, I risked
them taking the money back. I didn't exactly push it by mailing my claims in
postmarked from a foreign country either. I found a way to get them mailed in
from my home area as to not cause undue focus on me.

Bottom line. Go take that vacation.

~~~
pnathan
I'm pretty sure that in some US statess, that's considered fraud. FYI. =)

------
kleer001
Always have a beer after getting laid off.

First off, how much cushion money do you have? Are you living paycheck to
paycheck? Do you live in your parent's house? Roommates? Married? Kids? House?

How strong is your network? As in, how many people in the industry do you
know? If you know a lot of people go freelance. How often do you get
unsolicited job requests? If you get 1-2 a year then take some time off and
work on a personal project without worrying about employment, while always
keeping an ear to the ground.

Here's the thing, it's hard to give concrete advice without more info. But, in
the end, as a Java programmer you're probably fine, don't sweat it, someone
will hire you soon enough.

~~~
pacomerh
Java? didn't he say he was a Javascript developer

------
nilkn
I've always told myself that if I'm ever laid off in my 20s or early 30s (at
the latest) and I don't have kids yet or a mortgage then I'll become a
dentist.

It's something I've always wanted to do, but I can't really justify giving up
a great job with a great income to go back to school. But should I find myself
unexpectedly without said job, then maybe I just would, unless other
obligations prevent it.

My point is simply -- is there something for you which plays the equivalent
role of dentistry? If so, maybe this is your opportunity to pursue it without
feeling guilty about giving up a great job. If not, then I recommend following
all the other advice here.

~~~
scalesolved
Start saving, study anything you can that would help you achieve that dream
and just go for it. Don't waste your life away on the chance of being laid
off.

------
lsiunsuex
"So I really have two questions. What would you do in my situation (would you
stay in a smaller city?), and if you could start over in web development, what
would you focus on?"

2 years ago I got laid off from a job I was at for almost 8 years. File for
unemployment and make sure that's set. Clean up your resume and LinkedIn then
enjoy some time off. For me, it was early July so it was nice to sit outside
on the patio for a while. I freelanced through the summer, made a bit of money
here and there - We survived until the following March when I found a job.

I don't think there is any starting over in development. Why through away any
# of years of experience? If you can find a job using your existing skill set
- awesome! If not - well, you've got 6 months to find a new language.

My primary language has always been PHP. I used it at the job I got laid off
from as well as the 2 jobs I found after unemployment. Side projects are
causing me to learn new languages / frameworks and I'm working on a big site
in AngularJS myself. Will AngularJS open any doors for me? No idea - but it's
another skill that'll go on my resume / LinkedIn for sure.

My current job and last job found me via LinkedIn - as much as most people I
think like to hate it, it does have it's value. Spend some time there and see
what you find.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
File for unemployment, yes. Clean up your resume and LinkedIn, fine.

Enjoy some time off? Not so much.

If I understand correctly, he (she?) said that he only had a 3 month runway of
money. In that situation, finding a job had better be your full-time job.

I mean, look, take a day off. Take two days. Take even a week. Breathe. Look
around. Do a couple things you've wanted to do and haven't had time for.

But don't take a month off. You don't have that kind of time. After your bit
of down time, work at hunting for a job as seriously as you would work at a
full time job.

~~~
beslinger
I was in a very similar situation about 6 months ago, but with even less of a
runway (sidenote, lesson learned there). While taking a whole month as R&R
time is not really adviseable (plus 12 new next big JS frameworks will come
out in that time, right??), I will say that taking a week or even a few days
as a brief pause is not a bad idea. I needed a few days to get my head on
straight and to push through the less productive emotions that are inevitable
in that situation. Though it sounds like the OP is already a lot less angry
than I was.

------
davismwfl
First, sorry to hear it, that sucks but it seems like you get that it isn't
necessarily about you which is good. Sometimes people take it too personally,
and usually it isn't personal, just business, but that doesn't mean it won't
still sting some.

Second, javascript is a great skill to have and it is looked for quite a bit.
Remote work isn't out of the question just because you aren't a degreed CS
person. You said you have some savings. So take 1-2 weeks, polish up the
resume, take it easy and start sending out resumes locally if you can find
anything and also to remote positions. You might feel more comfortable
starting to send out resumes right away and then taking a couple of weeks
before you start a new gig, but either way, take a couple of weeks to
decompress between jobs. I have skipped that in the past too many times and
regretted it later. Also use that time to reassure your bride-to-be that all
is good and will work out, tech is a great place to be.

Just a side note, I live in a small city and almost every client, job or thing
I have done has been remote or outside my city, so it is very doable. If you
go into freelancing, there is a thread from the other day on here about it,
look it up under Ask HN, it has some good points from a lot of people.

------
faehnrich
Hello fellow Clevelander! Sorry you were let go.

I hope you stay in Cleveland. I collected links of tech companies and job
resources in the Cleveland area.

[http://faehnri.ch/cleveland-careers/](http://faehnri.ch/cleveland-careers/)

I don't know any one directly that is looking or could help you, but feel free
to contact me if you think I can help you with anything.

------
mod
Angular is hot. You're very employable, in whatever capacity you want to be.

Post in the hiring/freelancer threads that come out Sunday (and January's, if
you want). Apply to positions that interest you.

------
johnnyg
We're a LAMP shop that is doing more and more angular. I contract with many
HNers. Please email johnny d0t goodman @ cpap d07 com if interested in
discussing further and setting up a fizzbuzz.

~~~
dopamean
What does "setting up a fizzbuzz" mean?

~~~
saturdayplace
"fizzbuzz" is coding exercise, used by companies looking to screen out
applicants who claim to be able to code, but in fact cannot. The applicant is
asked to write a short program that prints the numbers 1-100 (or whatever).
When the number is divisible by 3, instead of printing it, print the word
"fizz". When divisibly by 5, print "buzz". When divisible by both, print
"fizzbuzz."

To anyone who actually can code, it seems ridiculous that people are applying
to coding positions who can't come up with a solution to this, but anecdotally
many hiring managers _routinely_ encounter such applicants. I suspect the
parent here is using the term "set up a fizzbuzz" as shorthand for "set up
some time to see if you can actually cross the bare minimum coding hurdle."

~~~
ubertaco
Still sounds like the developer version of the annoying "have your people call
my people, let's do lunch" cliché.

------
Natsu
There should be a "Who's Hiring?" thread on HN in a few days which might give
you some leads. I doubt there are many jobs in Cleavland, but there might be
some remote job leads.

------
ctb_mg
> your situation

Staying in Cleveland depends on if you like Cleveland or not. Unsure about the
opportunities there, but I have an inkling that there are more varied and
interesting opportunities elsewhere.

Consider taking the opportunity to move somewhere that is going to be a great
area for you to raise a child (if that is something in your future).

Not many people have the luxury (as we do in our industry) of being able to
(mostly) freely choose where they work.

> starting over

I wouldn't do much differently. Any dev worth their chops can learn whatever
the hot technology is these days. I'd focus on learning how to learn, how to
communicate effectively based on your audience, and how to find interesting
people that you can learn things from.

~~~
SomeCallMeTim
>Staying in Cleveland depends on if you like Cleveland or not.

This. I have no experience myself living in Cleveland, so I have no opinion on
it, but from the outside it doesn't seem to have a lot to recommend it. In
fact it's sometimes used as an example of a generic city. [1]

BUT if you [OP] have a strong network of friends there, that alone could be
reason to stay.

If you're at all considering starting something new instead of just looking
for another job, there are advantages to staying away from the coasts. With
Google and others offering developers $200k+/year in compensation, it's hard
to find good people to work with -- and you'd be farther from your network if
it's primarily located in Cleveland.

But _look_ at your network and figure out where it's concentrated. If you do
know a lot of people in another location, it's a prime opportunity to move
there.

And if you are looking for a new job, the coasts are _great_ for that. I know
I could have my choice of job if I were willing to work on the coasts. I'm in
the Boulder area now, though, and I'm not leaving -- though I'm working
remotely for a company on the coasts. [2]

For me, I decided to move to Boulder because Boulder is awesome. I grew up in
California, but hated the congestion and insane housing market. The K-12
schooling system left a lot to be desired as well (again, if you're looking at
kids as an eventuality).

But Boulder was partly an attraction because I have family here; take your own
situation into account and figure out what you want. There is a lot of tech in
the Boulder/Denver area, so that's one option, but there are fewer big
companies offering crazy salaries (Google has a Boulder office, but it's not
nearly as huge of a presence here).

Good luck!

[1] e.g. “America has only three cities: New York, San Francisco, and New
Orleans. Everywhere else is Cleveland.” -- Tennessee Williams

[2] Full details of my working arrangements are more complicated than that,
but not relevant.

~~~
eastbayjake
You do make a very good point that there are opportunities outside of
Cleveland -- and Boulder _is_ awesome! -- but Cleveland does have things to
recommend it.

My sister-in-law works part-time for a tech company in Cleveland. The cost of
living is insanely low (like $400/mo for an entire house in some places) and
that allows her to be a full-time artist without needing a full-time job to
live. I'd imagine the low cost of living would also make it easier for a
freelancer to be selective about clients, should OP choose to take that route.

Many of these Rust Belt and Midwestern cities are becoming centers of
hipsterdom. Who would have thought ten years ago that you would see young
people moving to Pittsburgh, Detroit, Des Moines, or Omaha to start trendy
restaurants and open art galleries? But now I see the reason: it's cheap to
live, you can probably afford to buy a house, the public schools are decent,
and there's a small community of likeminded people who'd rather do meaningful
things than stay on the work treadmill to afford SF or NYC. The same thing is
happening in Cleveland, at least from what I've seen.

~~~
ssharp
The Cleveland food scene has had a pretty remarkable renaissance over the past
few years. Downtown is growing as more people live there (occupancy rates
upwards of 99% as apartments can't be converted fast enough to meet demand).
We have seed accelerators. The arts are perfectly fine here. University Circle
has more cultural and art institutions within one square mile than any other
square mile in the country. There is plenty of live music and touring acts
come here frequently.

------
JDDunn9
Sounds eerily similar to my situation a month ago. I'm 28, grew up in
Cleveland, worked mostly with Angular, and was let go the other month too.

I'd start sewing seeds in every direction and see what takes root. Apply to
jobs locally, and all over the country. You only have to consider moving if
you get an offer. You can try kickstarter or getting an angel investor if you
want to try your own software. Freelancing kinda sucks unless you have
connections. It's hard to differentiate yourself and get a decent rate if you
are just another person online. But again, you can give oDesk a shot and see
how it fares.

------
kilroy123
Hey man, I feel your pain. I was just let go today, as well! Along with 40% of
this company.

I was laid off last year so this is my second time going through this in a
year. I can tell you, I'm not nearly as worried this time around.

A lot of places need good developers, and I already have recruiters calling
me. If you end up needing a 9-5 you can get one.

Me, I think I'm going to put everything into my side project. Then follow my
dreams and move down to South America for a while and backpack.

Hopefully, I can pick up some part-time remote work along the way.

------
beat
You're in Cleveland? Email me, I know someone local who might be able to give
you advice and leads.

------
revorad
Every 1st of the month, there are a few hiring posts here on HN -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring](https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring)

The next one is tomorrow (1 Feb). Make sure you post to them, saying you're
looking for work.

And yes, you can get freelance work as a self-taught programmer. Most people I
know do exactly that.

If you do Ruby/Rails in addition to Javascript, I might have some work for
you. Email's in my profile.

------
bane
This could be a good thing.

Step 1: Register a business

Step 2: Get a domain and some cheap hosting

Step 3: Start building an MVP

Congratulations, you are now working on a "boot-strapped startup". But with
Step 3, you can spend your time learning about full-stack web development.
You'll have to learn some back-end stuff, improve your front-end stuff,
design, art, graphics, etc.

Once your MVP is up and running, then you'll have to move into sales and
marketing and learn that part of the business. Come up with some kind of
monetization strategy and implement it as part of the product.

While doing all this, split your time between building this thing up, and
applying for your next gig. Bonus, when your MVP is up, put it on your resume
so future employers can go see it and eliminate that gap in employment right
off your resume.

You now have a portfolio, business experience, sales & marketing experience,
executive experience, product development, design, QA, art, improved technical
skills and no gap on your resume since you've "been working" the entire time.

There are many employers who would kill to have employees with that kind of
experience, and it shows you can turn a minus into an opportunity.

Bonus, if you can't find a job, keep plugging away at it and maybe your
startup will turn into something.

------
blfr
I don't have any advice but wanted to note that this is a very well written
ask HN: clear, with all the relevant info, and to-the-point.

------
rgovind
Also, remember, 1st February is coming. First of every month there is a who is
hiring thread here on HN. Lots of JS jobs. Keep an eye out

------
morgante
Sounds like you're in a fine position to follow some dreams and set yourself
for a future in either startups or freelancing (both of which offer a lot of
freedom).

> would you stay in a smaller city?

I think you should. Your cost of living is _much_ lower there than what it
would be in a major metro, so it's much easier to afford a great life
(especially if you're looking to build a family).

It sounds like doing some contracting would be a great opportunity for you.
Generally nobody screens contractors for their CS skills—what matters is that
you can execute. Also, having a product-driven focus can be a major asset:
user empathy is one of the biggest things I look for in developers.

If you're interested in working on some Javascript for Cafe.com, I've hired a
number of contractors of HN and would be happy to talk to you.
morgante@cafe.com

------
roberthahn
You're getting a lot of fantastic ideas and advice. You're in the position to
cherry pick any that makes sense to you. Best of luck in landing your next
gig!

My suggestion is to go to meetup.com and look for groups you'd be interested
in. Then spend time mingling with those people. I was going to add tips for
how to network effectively, but I don't want to assume - you may already be
good at it!

Here's a link of meetups in your area related to startups:
[http://www.meetup.com/find/?allMeetups=false&keywords=startu...](http://www.meetup.com/find/?allMeetups=false&keywords=startup&radius=25&userFreeform=Cleveland%2C+Ohio%2C+USA&mcId=c44101&sort=recommended&eventFilter=mysugg)

------
bottlerocket
Hey fellow Clevelander here, if you're interested just last week someone hit
me up for some long term (3-6 months) JS contract work. Contact info in
profile, I have a line on a couple other opportunities but this one might
float you while you figure out your situation

------
davidw
In terms of your bootstrapped business, if you haven't already found some of
these resources, have a look:

* [http://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/](http://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/) \- great weekly podcast with a transcript.

* Nice, focused, friendly forum: [http://discuss.bootstrapped.fm/](http://discuss.bootstrapped.fm/)

* Book by the guys who did the podcast above that I would _highly_ recommend to pretty much anyone: [http://www.amazon.com/Start-Small-Stay-Developers-Launching/...](http://www.amazon.com/Start-Small-Stay-Developers-Launching/dp/0615373968?tag=dedasys-20)

Those should be enough to lead you to other resources.

------
pnathan
* I would stay in the smaller city, and look for work in a larger city amenable to your future spouse. It is very important to me to always have a pool of local work in the case that my current company becomes my previous company.

* I am personally not fond of webdev, so no reply.

I would suggest eyeballing odesk for their contract work, as you can find
reasonable work in the > 1K range - for small odesk jobs you can make more at
MickyD's. Better take that unemployment insurance.

Also, I'd personally suggest not making any major decisions until Monday
morning, after you've slept on it, thought about it, and so forth. My
experience is that my judgement is impaired in highly emotional moments.

------
gumballhead
Maybe check out Farmlogs. It sounds like you could be a great fit. We're in
Ann Arbor so not too far away either.

[https://farmlogs.com/jobs/front-end-
engineer/](https://farmlogs.com/jobs/front-end-engineer/)

------
fandawg195
> I have looked into doing freelance work, but as I am self taught my CS
> skills are not as solid as other developers, and my design skills are just
> about average. I am more product focused, I try to work as closely to the
> end user as possible and clearly define what they need.

in my experience unless you are interviewing for a huge silicon valley
company, most companies don't get into the nitty gritty of algos. and data
structures. rather they will ask more fundamental front-end questions like
'what does this refer to in js' and 'what is prototypical inheritance' and
might have you do a small project to showcase your skills.

------
serve_yay
I don't have much actionable advice, but - this is a good time to be a JS dev.
If you just built an Angular app you should be in demand. I bet you are pretty
shaken, so just keep in mind that you're overall in a good spot.

Good luck out there, sorry to hear it. For whatever it's worth, I know people
who got fired from jobs that turned out to be the best thing that ever
happened to them.

I am from Pittsburgh. I would recommend moving west for all sorts of reasons,
but I know that's not realistic for everyone. Look into it if you can.

------
pacomerh
This was probably for the best. I'd suggest you take some time to really think
of what you want to be doing. If you're gonna work for another company now is
the time to choose it wisely. Or if you're gonna go the freelancer way, it's
also a good time to promote yourself as one. I wouldn't tell you what to
choose because that really depends on what type of person you are. Do you like
being around people?, are you good working by yourself, etc.

------
aercolino
I would live in a big city with plenty of opportunities. Find an interesting
job, where to work no more than 20 hours a week, and earn around 60K. I think
your Angular experience is very marketable. And you can always tell your
prospective employers the truth, that you made an application too good to keep
working there for maintaining it at your salary level. Then use your free time
for whatever you want, including meeting lots of people. You could find
cofounders...

------
mattmurdog
Sorry to here about what happened, but when one door closes another will open!

We're hiring senior/mid JS developers (Angular specifically) out in sunny San
Francisco. If you want to relocate please send an email to Zak.Brown [at]
target.com

Don't worry, the position is for a tech company recently bought by Target and
not actually Target itself.

If relocating isn't your thing, I would always recommend freelancing, as JS is
in demand. Be your own boss, you owe it to yourself to at least try it.

------
ravitation
I got linked this article ([https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/6-things-id-do-i-
got-laid-off...](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/6-things-id-do-i-got-laid-off-
ibm-j-t-o-
donnell?_mSplash=1&midToken=AQF5ReDV8_sJHw&trk=eml-b2_content_ecosystem_digest-
recommended_articles-165-null&fromEmail=fromEmail&ut=3rbMVP6ac5OSA1)) today,
actually. Thought it had some interesting thoughts.

------
ninjakeyboard
I have no compsci - I would recommend you do some interviewing to find out
what you don't know and fill in the gaps on coursera. Mostly the stanford
algorithms 1 course will ensure you have what you need to interview IMO. Apart
from that, I don't see much else you miss compared to your compsci peers that
isn't directly obtained by work experience and effort.

------
eof
If you don't mind doing freelance work you will probably find it surprisingly
easy. Offer your skills to design shops; they tend to be strong in design but
weak in engineering.. the best part is that a lot of them will build their
designs into flat html; so you just implement their html and css and do the
backend work.

If you can build stuff; you are ready for freelance work.

------
Mahn
> I would say I am 3 months of solid work away from having a good beta. I do
> not see this as an option as it would clear out most of my savings, and
> leave me in mostly the same position I am in now.

That won't be enough. You have to count with at least a year, if you are very
lucky, for your own start up to start generating revenue.

------
Spoom
If you do become interested in another fulltime job, we are in downtown
Cleveland and are looking for a full stack web developer and an iOS developer.
We're a profitable startup in the broadcast space. Small development team.
Good people.

Send me an email if you're interested; it's in my profile.

------
fapjacks
Just a vote of confidence and a thumbs up from another self-taught programmer.
Don't forget that we are very desirable in our industry, having demonstrated a
fantastic ability to assimilate core skills as self-starters (instead of
needing these skills spoon-fed). Good luck!

------
joeshaw
I'm not sure what the market is like in Cleveland, but in Columbus there is a
great demand for web developers. I work out of a coworking place there with
several freelance web developers and I'd be happy to put you in touch with
them if you're interested.

------
timtadh
I am in Cleveland and know a few of the local startups and such. You can drop
me a line if you want.

------
mschnack
Hey, send me a message so we can chat - our company is looking for talented
JavaScript developers.

[https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=43649275](https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=43649275)

www.helloinnovation.com

------
404error
I can relate, I'm 29 just engaged and I feel my job will be disappearing here
pretty soon. Self taught dev, and average design skills. If there is anything
you want to work on I can help.

s a n c h o k d @ g m a i l . c o m

------
FajitaNachos
I work for a small web dev startup in Boulder, CO. I'm going to post in
tomorrow's HN Hiring thread for a JS Dev. If you're interested, shoot me an
email (address is in my profile).

------
monksy
If you're interested in Chicago: GoHealth is hiring Javascript devs. (We're
looking for those with Angular Experience)

If thats cool then contact our internal recruiter, Gina, at:
gcontella@gohealth.com

------
skimmas
If I had the chance I would spend one or two days doing nothing, the next few
days thinking of what I wanted to do... making a plan. Then would start
walking towards my goals.

------
ChicagoDave
Chicago has an awesome start-up community. Check out
[http://www.builtinchicago.org/](http://www.builtinchicago.org/).

------
rodw
Hey thecolorblue, if you are interested in some contract work I'd like to talk
to you. You can find contact info in my hn profile.

------
2pasc
You should contact GrubMarket and apply to work for them - they are YC +
funded + in the same space as PearMarket. cs@grubmarket.com

------
Vadoff
Sounds like working full time on your project or freelancing aren't great
options, so just get another job?

------
forgottenpass
Was the headline of this edited to change "laid off" to "let go" or am I
seeing things?

------
hemantv
Send me your resume on fameoflight@gmail.com if you want to move to SF Bay
area and work at Postmates

------
pm24601
File for unemployment. There is a waiting period. The money always helps.

------
simonebrunozzi
Make sure your severance is fair. If not, consult a lawyer ASAP.

------
bherms
Sign up for Hired.com, move to the Bay, make bank and love your life.

------
gujurati7777777
Older and bit WISER elder. THE RULES OF LIFE, imho. your mileage will varyy a
LOT. fiction, of course. LOL

1.) DREAM BIG. don't limit yourself. if i had your skillsets i would pitch
mish shedlock directly. no endorsement, no conflicts of interest. do the top
20 financial blogs.

2.) mish shedlock? who is this guy. career changer and former cobol programmer
who got KICKED INTO THE REAL WORLD. Welcome 'brave and sad new world.' this is
a literary allusion. LOL

3.) philosophy. does sad come first or the brave? rhetorical question, my dear
Mr. Ut. Opian (LOL) first. "self taught my CS skills are not as solid"
COMPLETE RUBBISH. THE BEST are self-taught and self-teachers. I, myself did
barcamp.org and i prefer to teach the teachers FOR FREE. Because I get back
ten times the investment.

Oh, by the way, when I am CEO, I always have a small interview trick i play on
the applicants, like you. I LOVE MY FAMILY AND my 'future children.' SO MY
MOTIVATION is extremely high. some companies will try to negotiate you down.
AKA kicking you while you are down. Others and most will change the 'social
contract' or even the job description. THAT MEANS even if you have the job or
future job, these companies are TRASH.

LOok only for the gold. Where the CEO says, I understand. been there myself.
WHATEVER happens, whether you get a job here or not, we continue the GREAT
JOURNEY that is your life. repeat WE. we even recommend you to our
competitors.

5,) don't be AFRAID of taking food stamps. for even those with a college
degree... welcome to the USA.

6.)thank you for your open source.

7.)the standard in wall street, nyc, ny, USA is 250 dials. that is COLD CALLS.
Sure, linkkd in and networking works. Rule NUMBER 20. Always call on weekends,
6am, etc. The secretary screens the calls when she comes in a 8:30am. THE REAL
WORKERS will pick up the phone.

22.) obviously moving is difficult. been there done that. there are many
CAREER actors. GENIUSES, they NEVER got there first break until moving to the
large city, LA.

23.)plenty of folks are sleeping in their cars /trailers in new york or the
big city, which will really suck when it snows.

how amusing. mostly big city, engineering, cellphone and software but I STILL
WANNA make big money and move to the SMALL FARM COUNTRY WHERE YOU ARE.

ps. now go back and sell a small RIDICULOUS small amount contract to your
former employer. IF YOUR CODE IS A BAD as you think it is. (FOR IT IS NOT)
then there is a great demand for your patching the codebase.

get together with unemployed lawyers and write numerous weasel words into the
contract. My favorite is time dependent upon prior commitments to non-profits
EXPLAIN non-profits are not competitors) and your top priority is the
contract.

When the time comes at Saturday night when their website and e-commerce engine
crashes, YOU ARE CALLED. Make sure that you are working on that non-profit
work, UNTIL THE COMPANY JUST HAPPENS TO DECIDE THAT additional lucrative
contracts are issued.

THEY WILL NOT CALL YOU UNTIL THE LAST RESORT. Isn't that the case, fellow
CEOs?

i cite as case history the cobol programmer MISH SHEDLOCK. no endorsement and
I am not selling you gold (literally).

CAREER: difficult code >> good job lasts only 6 years >> this is COBOL >>
capitalism boom/bust cycle >> layoffs so only the best survive >>
MANUFACTURING GOESE TO CHINA >> bank IBM (you know the names) crash because
the OLD LEGACY CODE finally MEMORY LEAKS over ten years

>> PANIC and sudden need for FORMER EMPLOYEES.

freelance is great, but only in order to gather INTELLIGENCE. Remeber, you
will competing with the so called OBAMACARE website, where the Javascript
comments are in Gujurat.

get together with your community college teachers, who are from INDIA and ask
them to translate the comment sections in Gujurat, which is a POVERTY section
of India.

LOL. you think your skillsets are low, wait till you get to the world. Please
BUY my second hand Yugo car (the one that tends to go on fire.)

LOL

------
shravvmehtaa
www.hired.com

------
irascible
File for funemployment.. drink wine.. make art.

~~~
sqyttles
...while reaching out across your personal and professional network. If I were
in your situation, which I have been (let go from a development job), I would
file for unemployment while searching for another job everywhere you go.

Do everything it takes to prove to other firms that you got the programming
skills to pay the bills (as Weird Al would say). Use the funemployment money
to sustain life.

I can also tell you what not to do. Do not move back in with your parents if
their hometown is small. I did this and I languished.

------
michaelochurch
First, this is common and it's not a big deal.

Layoffs happen, even to great developers. Ask about severance, but don't get
pushy or threatening if not offered it (you don't want an extortion rap). Ask
about a guaranteed positive reference (by contract, and with LinkedIn
recommendations) and _do_ be pushy or threatening if not offered it. Have your
references checked in any case by a third party. Don't sign non-disparagement
for less than 3 months' severance, although you should almost never disparage
an ex-employer. Do sign non-litigation if offered a positive reference and a
cash severance you can accept (which may be zero, if you have savings and
confidence).

Take a week or two to recover, emotionally, but no more. Being unemployed on
dwindling savings is no fun, so get yourself in the game immediately before
you start getting depressed or moody or whatever. Work so hard that you don't
have time to get moody. Looking for work _is_ your new job. Job searches have
a lot of latency and you can work on your side projects while you wait for
emails and calls to get returned (otherwise, you'll go fucking nuts refreshing
your email client).

Describe your situation as a layoff for economic reasons (even if it wasn't)
and say that your performance reviews were excellent (even if they weren't)
and don't say anything negative about former colleagues, managers, or
employers except in a you-or-them situation (such as a 6-month job, where
_someone_ will come off looking bad and your job is to make sure that it's not
you... but even then, minimize what you say.)

 _What would you do in my situation (would you stay in a smaller city?)_

Take your job search national. It's not about "leaving Cleveland". A good
company will give you at least $5k post-tax for relocation. (Add $4-5k for NYC
because rental brokers collect 15% on tenant side.) It's about going where the
jobs are. Obviously some locales are better than others. Seattle, Boulder,
Austin, and Chicago have strong tech markets and (relative to SF or NYC)
moderate cost of living. NYC is an option if you don't need a lot of space and
you're willing to downsize on furniture. If you choose NYC, include the broker
fee (again, 15% of a year's rent) and loss-on-sale for your car (you'll be
getting rid of it) in your relo calculations. San Francisco... some love it,
some hate it, and I doubt I'd move there without a stellar offer (I'm 31) but
if you find something out there, give it a go.

 _if you could start over in web development, what would you focus on?_

Don't fret about starting over. You can't and that's a good thing. The
knowledge you've gained is more transferrable than you think. But if I were to
start over, I'd jump either into the Python or the Clojure stack (and maybe
move to Haskell after 2+ years if I really wanted to build extremely robust,
large systems).

~~~
yuhong
_Describe your situation as a layoff for economic reasons (even if it wasn 't)
and say that your performance reviews were excellent (even if they weren't)
and don't say anything negative about former colleagues, managers, or
employers except in a you-or-them situation (such as a 6-month job, where
someone will come off looking bad and your job is to make sure that it's not
you... but even then, minimize what you say.)_

Why?

------
jdawg77
Near as I can tell, you sound a bit like my javascript skills - that's not
where I choose to focus though. My CTO, co-founder (we got rejected by
Ycombinator, but, also applied super late) is a self taught programmer who, if
you read what he writes, doesn't know a whole lot.

However, he's a genius. I'm 100% certain you have skills you aren't aware of,
at your age, non "Tech," town, well, it's always possible you're better than
us in the valley.

Write down what you want to do. Step, by step. Start a business or be an
employee? Caution: too much self employment makes people not want to hire you
as an employee. Ever. I was self employed for five years, took six months to
find a job; this time, took that long so I'm staying self employed because
groveling and begging isn't what I'm about.

I might be starving, but, I have dignity.

Next, after you have those goals identified, it's time to review the financial
options, talk it through with your fiancee ideally so you're both on the same
page (my ex-wife of 13 years was also the co-founder of my first 10
businesses, trust me, it sucks to lose a wife, or a business partner - sucks
worse when you lose both).

Consider doing contracting, don't worry about it being on your resume, or not,
while you explore and make enough money to slowly pad the bank account.

Since you did mention angular, and even though we're broke, we have a very
powerful, open source social media & SEO tool that we're giving away. The
project is gaining a lot of traction and if you contribute even a bit, we can
definitely help promote you and your skills.

Plus, if some nice VC decides that my team and I are going to take over the
world, we hire remote and don't have a central office. 3 team members now,
hiring an intern next week who's a PhD candidate with experience in natural
language processing.

Contact info in profile, and whatever you do, make sure it's your dreams you
are following. Only those will lead to any kind of meaningful happiness.

------
curiously
> I built a large angular application while there, but it is now built and
> there are other developers who can support it.

what startup/company was this again?

