
The iPhones 8 - msh
https://daringfireball.net/2017/09/the_iphones_8
======
bane
This was a weirdly subdued review by Gruber, it even brings up areas where
competitors have been doing something for a while without going through the
normal Gruberian mental gymnastics to justify it. He even brings up Apple's
inexplicable need to have a 16 GB base model until this year without trying to
justify it. Gruber often gets himself in trouble by omission as much as by the
circus-show of what he writes. But there's very little of that here.

This reads like an honest review.

My tl;dr of it is "It's a solid year over year update from the 7."

 _note_ Not to worry, his previous articles will send the critically thinking
reader down the road to infuration just like one might expect...I was afraid
Gruber was losing his edge.

~~~
Eridrus
All of the phones Apple released are boring, so it's kind of not surprising
that people aren't worked up about it.

At least to people who watch gadgets. The Mi Mix was a revelation, the iPhone
X is just what people expected before all the leaks, with the exception of
FaceID, which got leaked.

Still, every time I see someone writing about Apple design, it seems like it's
great when Apple does it - its even better than last year's model! - but it's
always bad when competitors were.

I'm still completely jealous of iPhone battery life though.

~~~
currysausage
_> the iPhone X is just what people expected_

But that's the point of iPhones nowadays, isn't it? Shipping features only
when they feel ready (e.g. I guess this [1] won't be possible with Face ID). I
switched from Android to iOS when I decided that I want a _boring_ (but
elegant) smartphone that bothers me as little as possible.

 _> Apple design, it seems like it's great when Apple does it_

What many of their customers value, I think, is that Apple tends to get the
big picture _and_ the details right quite often.

The big picture: When I buy an Apple phone, I can be quite sure not to see
this on the default lockscreen: [2].

The details: [3]. You don't have to appreciate this level of detail, but some
people do.

That being said, not even Gruber claims that recent iPhones are "perfect"
design-wise. [4] Just more detail-oriented than most competitors.

 _> I'm still completely jealous of iPhone battery life though._

Bought an iPhone 7 ½ year ago. I don't think battery life is anything to be
jealous about. I hear good things about the Plus models though.

[1] [http://www.businessinsider.com/samsung-galaxy-
note-8-facial-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/samsung-galaxy-
note-8-facial-recognition-tricked-with-a-photo-2017-9)

[2]
[https://twitter.com/dcseifert/status/905104470429851648](https://twitter.com/dcseifert/status/905104470429851648)

[3]
[https://www.imore.com/sites/imore.com/files/styles/larger/pu...](https://www.imore.com/sites/imore.com/files/styles/larger/public/field/image/2015/04/galaxy-s6-bottom-
alignment.jpg)

[4]
[https://daringfireball.net/2017/09/iphone_x_event_thoughts_a...](https://daringfireball.net/2017/09/iphone_x_event_thoughts_and_observations#fn1-2017-09-14)
(Footnote 1)

~~~
zimpenfish
> I want a boring (but elegant) smartphone that bothers me as little as
> possible.

Exactly this. It's why I run OSX instead of Linux on the desktop - I'm old and
I resent having to catherd my gadgets. If I have to tweak anything, it
generally goes in the bin.

~~~
zeveb
The thing is, macOS is objectively worse than Linux in certain respects, e.g.
the UI's placement of window close next to other window controls (oddly, the
old Macintosh OS did this correctly) or shipping the less-featureful BSD
userland rather than the GNU userland, or shipping an old & outdated bash.

But I enjoy making my tools work better. I don't compile my kernel anymore, I
don't build my own computers, but I do enjoy making my environment work
better, faster, simpler and more powerfully.

~~~
jsjohnst
> shipping the less-featureful BSD userland rather than the GNU userland, or
> shipping an old & outdated bash.

You think that's an intentional choice Apple made? If you spent even a moment
looking into it you'd realize the GNU user land has a license that purposely
roadblocks companies like Apple from using it.

I'm not saying Apple or GNU is to blame, they have different philosophies with
their own benefits and drawbacks, but to pretend it's only one side's fault is
a bit naive.

~~~
zeveb
> You think that's an intentional choice Apple made?

Yes, because they _do_ ship some GPL software (and provide the source code for
it); they _choose_ not to ship more, and they _choose_ not to give their
customers the source code to the software they purchase.

I don't know if Apple could make money selling hardware with open source
software, but I do believe that morally it should.

~~~
jsjohnst
They used to ship quite a bit of GPL software, but have been progressively
removing as much of it as they can as fast as they can. There's very little
GPL left in macOS and I bet they would kill it immediately if it was
practical.

------
basseq

      A lot of people out there have been asking me who the 
      iPhone 8 is for, other than people who can’t or don’t 
      want to spend $999 or more on an iPhone X.
    

Well... Jesus. "Only cheapskates buy the 8", apparently.

I pre-ordered the 8 Plus, because:

\- It was available a month sooner and I need a new phone.

\- The 8 Plus has all the same internals and features. I really just wanted
the camera.

\- Face unlock seems gimmicky. Maybe next generation.

\- $200+ for what amounts to a "better" screen and "cooler" form factor: not
worth it.

So I guess I do fall into the "don't want to spend $999" category. Look down
on me, pedants!

~~~
philtar
Why not order a 7?

~~~
fish_fan
Inductive charging!

~~~
basseq
I do like inductive charging, but I often find myself futzing about on my
phone in bed at the end of the day, and my phone's on 5%. So I plug it in and
keep using it. Hard to do that with inductive charging.

Granted, my current iPhone is literally dying a protracted death[1], so YMMV.

[1] Battery jumps around, screen doesn't work half the time, etc.

------
whitehouse3
> These are solid year-over-year updates — at least as impressive as the
> iPhone 7 was over the iPhone 6S. If they hadn’t debuted alongside the iPhone
> X we’d be arguing about whether these are the most impressive new iPhone
> models since the iPhone 6. There’s a lot to love about them and nothing to
> dislike.

People who buy the iPhone 8 won't feel the satisfaction of owning the latest
and greatest iPhone. That's what makes this update boring. It's already out of
date.

~~~
Geee
People who want a great phone buy the 8. People who are Apple fanatics and/or
too rich and/or need a status symbol buy the X.

~~~
ceejayoz
I'm personally considering the X because I suspect folks will do cool stuff
with the new sensors. The dot projector, in particular, seems like it may be
useful for 3D mapping of objects - would be pretty cool to wave your phone at
something and be able to send the scan straight to a printer.

~~~
problems
Unfortunately, Apple being Apple - doesn't expose those new sensors in any
APIs.

~~~
wlesieutre
And thank god for that. The face recognition data goes in the secure enclave
and stays there.

The last thing I need is Snapchat to say "We need access to the facial scan
for new video filters!" and then using it to measure microexpressions in
response to ad displays.

~~~
ceejayoz
They could conceivably provide APIs that refuse to give detailed scans when a
face is detected.

~~~
wlesieutre
Can't you do that with the regular camera? The only reason you need the grid
projector is for getting a detailed 3D model.

Haven't checked, but I assume that (like TouchID) they _do_ provide APIs to
use it for authentication, but they refuse to give any more data than that.

~~~
ceejayoz
> The only reason you need the grid projector is for getting a detailed 3D
> model.

That's what I want it for.

TouchID isn't very useful outside of fingerprinting. The dot projector I could
see a wide variety of really neat, innovative uses by third-party devs if it
can be made accessible.

~~~
wlesieutre
Given how explicit Federighi has been about the FaceID data staying on-device
in the secure enclave, with not even Apple having access to it, I think it's
very unlikely they'll change their stance on that.

The moment 3rd party devs have access to the scanner, it'd be siphoned off by
somebody's ad framework and then sold for biometric ad targeting in nearby
stores or god knows what else.

~~~
ceejayoz
Hence my saying:

> They could conceivably provide APIs that refuse to give detailed scans when
> a face is detected.

~~~
wlesieutre
Oh I see, I'd read that as generating some kind of simplified "generic face"
model to use for face features without biometric identifiers, but you're
talking about using the grid projector for more generic stuff like people had
done with Kinekt sensors?

~~~
ceejayoz
Yes, exactly. 3D scans of objects, room mapping, robot brain...

~~~
wlesieutre
Pretty clunky with the sensor on the front, but I agree it'd be cool.

For room mapping it seems like ARKit should cover a lot of use cases. The tape
measure demos I've seen were solid. But IIRC ARKit has a lot of stuff built
around identifying flat surfaces like that, it can't help you so much with
arbitrary objects.

------
hectorlorenzo
> After _six days_ of daily use, this iPhone 8 shows no scratches or “micro-
> abrasions” whatsoever.

When did we start having such low expectations of products? (my italics)

Edit: grammar.

~~~
elicash
His point was that while it has the same feel of the last-generation jet black
version, it doesn't have the same downside of it.

~~~
hectorlorenzo
I understand. My point is broader. Even if he's comparing to last year's
product, he promotes this as a bonus. He is happy that the product is in mint
condition after 6 days. Not even a week. It's slightly sad.

~~~
michaelt
Ugh, I noticed the same thing a few weeks ago reading reviews of battery life.

Apparently "good" battery life these days means "in more sedate conditions
it's easily going to get you home to a charger."

When did people's expectations get so low?

------
pupppet
Hey look, another glowing review from Apple's favorite cheerleader.

~~~
emsy
I think Gruber's pieces about Apple are mostly useless, because he always
seems heavily biased. Compare that to e.g. the ATP podcast, which is hosted by
Apple fans but seems to contain more criticism and less apologism.

~~~
iClaudiusX
John Siracusa and Marco Arment are great at getting to the parts where Apple
can improve. My only fault with them is their idea of Windows seems stuck in
the days of XP.

Casey Liss, however, is just a cheerleader who would rather self-flagellate
about his unworthiness to see Apple's blinding genius.

~~~
orbitur
Since you brought him up, Liss gets on my nerves because not only does he
insist that something works fine for him, but he goes on extended rants about
how everything is fine and he can't see what Arment/Siracusa are talking
about. Like, he spends a lot of time claiming everything is fine but in an
argumentative way. It's boring and frustrating.

Marco's problematic/annoying in his own way, but Casey is aggressively...
status quo???

~~~
atonse
But the fact that they have 3 distinct personalities also makes the show
interesting, rather than many other podcasts where people just agree with each
other (like the aforementioned Talk Show)

------
davidivadavid
I don't understand his rant about "wireless" charging. He wrote a whole
article about it with two dictionary definitions that completely contradict
his own point, too.

Wireless means there's no wire and you don't need to plug your phone to charge
it. So it's wireless charging.

~~~
clashmoore
The rant is about how to charge the iPhone or any device with "wireless"
charging is that you still need the wire to be touching the phone or device.

There is still a wire involved and they're calling it "wireless".

~~~
jbob2000
It's a petty semantic argument. You don't need to plug it into your phone,
which is the annoying part. You just plug the pad in and leave it plugged in
forever. You require much less accuracy to charge your phone now. It will be a
boon to people who suffer from tremors or have weak hands.

~~~
elicash
To me, the most annoying part is having to part from the device. Truly
wireless charging in my pocket, without thinking about it, would be amazing
and will eventually happen (though far away).

------
mozumder
One advantage of the iPhone 8+ over the iPhone X is that the display is wider,
and that makes it easier to read larger accessibility fonts. My parents are
keeping the plus size because of that.

~~~
jghn
One advantage of the iPhone 8 over the iPhone X is that it's not a monstrous
size. Even though the iPhone X is only slightly larger than the iPhone 7, the
screen is still ridiculously larger, particularly since they got rid of the
feature where it'll shrink the screen.

I don't know why the market has decided that two hand smartphone usage is
king, but it makes me sad. As someone who is frequently forced to use my
device one handed and on the move its getting harder and harder to deal with.

~~~
jcadam
I know. I wish they would update the iPhone SE (my current phone). As it is,
looks like I'm not upgrading anytime soon.

~~~
jghn
I got sort of used to the size of the 7. After a year I'm still at the point
where it annoys me at times but otherwise is fine. A hair smaller in height
would be perfect for my needs.

I was intrigued by the X in that I was willing to go a hair higher in height
for a much larger screen until I realized they got rid of the small-scaling
feature I still can't think of the name of. Considering I already use that all
the time on my 7 and the screen is about to get much larger, it'd be necessary
for me to get by.

------
asafira
Why is this the review that is making it to the front page? There are lots of
sources that have, or will have, much better insights into the phone and tech
that will spur much better conversation on HN; I hope one of those surfaces,
too.

~~~
Brendinooo
I think the author is a homer for sure, but his reviews are a lot more
practical, more Walt Mossberg than Ars Technica. It's nice to know what's
under the hood but it's also nice to know what the phone feels like in day-to-
day use, and I think Mr. Gruber covers that well.

And, for anyone who's already in the ecosystem, I think he's really good at
relating new products to existing ones.

~~~
asafira
Can you give an example of how Mr. Gruber covers something "day-to-day" well?
Not that examples don't exist, but I have a pretty unhappy relationship with
more touchy-feely metrics.

Example: battery life. A good description of how battery life is dealt with in
most reviews is "awfully": battery life depends on a crazy number of details
that it is really hard to properly capture "day-to-day" usage in a review. A
person that rarely uses their phone vs. one that plays games all day vs. one
that uses the web browser all the time vs one that uses navigation all the
time vs one that snapchats all day are going to see very different battery
life performance; unless the phone is atrociously bad (which has happened
before, too), it's hard to be able to properly gauge battery life.

------
davidcollantes
> But they did debut alongside the iPhone X, and because of that almost nobody
> is excited about them...

Only thing I don't agree with on this post. Because of the price tag, and the
notch -- mostly -- the X hasn't impressed me much. The 8, and 8Plus, on the
other hand, are closer to what I was expecting: an iPhone with upgraded
hardware, and unique features (compared to the previous versions).

------
bischofs
_The pricing has changed slightly since last year. Last year’s entry model
iPhone 7 cost $649. This year’s 64 GB iPhone 8 costs $699. Apple, of course,
has no explanation for this._

Since the price of new iphones is obviously rising faster than inflation, it
begs the question; where is the market willing to go?

Are most people okay with monthly payments on phones when they were never at
that point with computers?

~~~
MBCook
The explanation stated/assumed elsewhere is that the price of flash has gone
up significantly in the last year and may go up further. Apple is changing the
price now.

Obviously they could have just taken a hit to their margins instead, but that
wouldn’t be Apple-like.

(I’m an Apple fan, but they love their margins)

------
vladdanilov
To recap:

Glass + Stainless Steel > Aluminum / Plastic > Glass + Aluminum > Glass +
Stainless Steel

2010 > 2017

> The lighting effects in Portrait mode, though, are interesting… There have
> also been a few [shots] where the edges … have confused the hell out of the
> iPhone’s depth sensing… original Portrait mode last year shipped in similar
> state… When it works, though, …

> … what exactly was “bionic” about the A11 chip … from Apple marketing-speak
> to plain English, is that The Bionic Man and Woman were cool, and the A11
> chip is very cool.

Brand new iPhone 8 “high-speed charging” vs year-old iPhone 7 charging:

> 30 minutes it was at 54 percent, and at 45 minutes it was at 72 percent

> 30 minutes it was at 43 percent, and at 45 minutes it was at 65 percent

True Tone, mostly software and probably $10 of hardware, is the only
noticeable display improvement.

> Last year’s entry model iPhone 7 cost $649. This year’s 64 GB iPhone 8 costs
> $699. Apple, of course, has no explanation for this.

------
TurboHaskal

      > I like this change from three sizes to just two.
    

Oh, come on...

------
TYPE_FASTER
The thing that struck me watching the keynote was the positioning of the
iPhone 8 and the iPhone X.

I think Apple knows the majority of people will buy the iPhone 8 Plus, and the
X is targeted at two niches: pro Instagrammers, and kids who always get the
flagship and use Snapchat. For social media pros, max selfie is a revenue
stream, and the X will get them more views.

The X is the modern Mac Pro, since the modern content creator is living in
Instagram.

I have a 6, and would like an 8 Plus. The difference between the camera on the
6 and the 7 in indoor lighting is noticeable to me, and I use my phone mostly
as a camera these days.

~~~
MBCook
I’ll be getting an X because I think it’s neat, I’ve got a 7 now. I agree with
reviews I’ve seen elsewhere. If you have a 6 or 6S it will be a huge jump in
performance and camera quality, totally worth it. If you have a 7 it’s a nice
upgrade (especially for TrueTone) but you could easily go without.

The 7 was a massive jump over my 6. The 8 is a huge jump (in performance) over
the 7.

Coming from a 6? You’ll love it.

