
Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis - ryanlol
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/21/world/europe/spain-catalonia-mariano-rajoy.html
======
JaumeGreen
The sentiment on the street is to keep pushing forward and declare
independence. The opposition to this rule is huge (there has been a new huge
demostration today).

If this happens civil disobedience will grow.

There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), but we
won't obey what comes from Madrid.

~~~
craftyguy
> There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns),

So it'll be a massacre?

I don't believe that everyone owning firearms is even remotely close to the
answer, but nations get super fucking stupid and desperate when folks try to
break away from them, even if the break away process is democratic and
peaceful.

~~~
cnlevy
Rajoy is not Assad. He knows there are more effective methods than just
shooting at demonstrators

------
lordnacho
Assuming there's a group of people who more or less agree to be separate from
some larger group, it's hard to think of legitimate reasons why they shouldn't
be allowed to secede. Their forefathers having signed an agreement is hardly a
convincing reason to hold them in a union they no longer like. Neither are
issues of the current political situation ("it would destabilize the
region...").

There's still hard questions, though. How do we split the national debt? What
about various government assets? Who has a choice about what nation to join?
And so on.

All hard questions, but none of them seems to undermine the idea that people
should be allowed to decide to be separate.

~~~
njarboe
"The people" includes a lot of people who don't want to separate. If 99% want
it I would say OK, maybe. Where does one draw the line? Take a look at how the
separation of India and Pakistan went if you want to get an idea of how it
might go.

~~~
syshum
How far do to you extend that? because I highly doubt you can find a single
government action, law, policy, or anything where 99% of people agree

So then you find that all government is illegitimate? or is your 99%
requirement only valid for separation?

~~~
njarboe
Separation into a new country is a huge deal. Such a big deal that I don't
think any country has a legal mechanism for part of the country to leave. If
set up ahead of time maybe 75% or 80% of all eligible voters, would be a good
level.

------
ardit33
It looks like Spain are coming as the bad guys in the whole ordeal, trying to
keep their "vassal" state at any cost. Seems like a throwback to feudal times.
They could have made a reasonable deal. Referendum would be valid if there is
over 50% participation and a super majority 2/3rds approve it (over 66% of
YES, for independence).

Most likely the independence vote would have lost, people felt they expressed
their rights and Spain would move on to deal with their economy and other
matters. Squashing referendums with violence made them look bad and lose the
moral ground on the international scale and just embolden the separatists (who
wants to live under an oppressive regime anyways).

Also the EU is coming out as a loser in this case. They demonstrated that they
basically don't give a fudge about their citizens (which Catalans are), and
just want to preserve the political status quo.

~~~
notspanishflu
Spanish sovereignty resides in all Spaniards, not just a part of them. It is
in the Spanish Constitution.

If secessionists lose an election, they'll keep asking for another, and
another.

~~~
ardit33
Lol, no, it resides on the folks that live on those states. Constitutions
change. (the last change was in 78, right?).

Fromer Yougoslavia broke off, as the separate states wanted their own
countries. Somewhere was peaceful (Slovenia), and very bloody, (the rest of
the states).

They are much much better off by themselves right now. Things change, and if
Catalonia wants their independence they should.

~~~
notspanishflu
The article 1.2 of the Spanish Constitution states:

> La soberanía nacional reside en el pueblo español, del que emanan los
> poderes del Estado.

(The national sovereignty resides in the Spanish people, from which emanate
the powers of the State.)

~~~
JaumeGreen
No one under 57 has voted on this constitution.

It should be modernised.

~~~
6t6t6t6
Also, when my parents voted for the constitution, the other option what to go
back for the dictatorship.

For them, not being beaten by the police for speaking Catalan, was a huge step
forward in terms of human rights.

------
baxtr
I’ve been to Barcelona quite often. People are nice and friendly. One time
though when I was out eating dinner with a Spanish friend from Madrid
something strange happened: the waiter told her she could not order in
Spanish, she needed to speak Catalan, which was totally weird since we ordered
in Spanish right before she ordered. But our Spanish was of course quite bad
with a foreign accent, he was ok with that. We thought that was quite rude and
impolite and ended up dining somewhere else.

I definitely don’t know enough to judge the whole thing. However, from what I
know, as a European, the secession movement bewilders me. It strangely feels
very un-European. How can we unite the continent if we start separating
countries? Can we not all just get along together and not care so much about
the details of our passport? Which problem is independence solving?

~~~
JaumeGreen
Which restaurant? Did you raise a complain?

Sorry but these stories ring untrue, given that Barcelona is both a huge
touristic destination and most servers speaking Spanish as a rule.

~~~
icebraining
I think the idea was that the server understood she was Spanish and therefore
that he was hostile to her, not that he didn't speak Spanish.

~~~
JaumeGreen
Most servers tend to speak Spanish, and quite a big percentage are from South
America. Spanish (as main language) speaking people in Catalonia tend not to
have a Catalan accent in their Spanish, most Catalan (as main language)
speaking have said accent.

So they went to a restaurant that had a server that not only was Catalan, but
was an independentist, detected your friend by her accent, isolated her making
she alone speak Catalan and the manager was OK with that?

Sorry, does not compute.

------
bitL
Obligatory "the beatings will continue until morale improves".

------
whatyoucantsay
The interesting question is what level of brutality the EU is willing to
accept before intervening.

~~~
farresito
They won't intervene, as it is 'domestic issues'. They are more than happy to
turn a blind eye as long as there's nothing physical, since a hypothetical
independence would cause instability in the EU and might give the pro-
Independence movement more legitimacy.

~~~
notspanishflu
The European Union leaders ain't turning a blind eye, they have showed their
express support to the Spanish government, and to the rule of law.

~~~
syshum
>>and to the rule of law.

I have always found it fascinating how strongly people believe "the rule of
law" to be the ethical and correct position. To uphold the rule of law no
matter what. That the rule of law itself if the goal. No matter what those
laws are, no matter if those laws are unethical, immoral, unjust. The rule of
law itself is the goal. Not a moral society, not a just society, not a ethical
society, but a society of law.

Why?

Almost every major atrocity in human history was legal under the laws
governing the geographic zone they were committed in so why is there such
strong support for this concept of "Rule of law"

~~~
farresito
That's the argument that the Spanish govt. gives all the time, so it's only
normal for them to use this argument when trying to defend the govt. position
to attack the Catalan people when trying to vote or when trying to justify
taking control of the Catalan administration, some Catalan public TV channels,
etc.

~~~
notspanishflu
Wow a democracy defending the rule of law! /s

------
nadunez
>The unexpectedly forceful moves by Mr. Rajoy

That’s not true. Catalan leaders were given a few days to make it clear
whether they had declared the independence or not, because after their joke
referendum, they were intentionally vague about what they were going to do.
Puigdemont dodged the question again so this is it.

They said they want to negotiate with the central government. In my opinion
this is simply racketeering, they want a better deal with taxes. This must not
stand.

Nothing of this would have happened if secessionists wouldn't have had full
access to the education and the media of that region since forever. They have
been blasting propaganda por decades. Of course this was bound to happen. I
work in the media and I know there's no way to get a grant for your small
paper/radio station if you don't align with their values.

There's a widespread sentiment that Spain "is robbing them". But the truth is
that this is just redistributing wealth; many regions of Spain give money and
others take. That's how the economy works everywhere.

~~~
farresito
Cool. Let's not negotiate. Consequences? You have a region where 50% of the
people are so discontent with the situation that they are willing to go
independent. Unsustainable. So you basically give them no option: they can't
hold a referendum for an independence, you don't want to find an agreement
with them... What kind of government would do that?

~~~
notspanishflu
Following your argument: lets make happy that 50% breaching the law, and lets
punish the 50% honoring the law.

That doesn't make any sense.

~~~
ryanlol
Supporting independence isn't breaking the law. Voting for independence isn't
breaking the law.

~~~
notspanishflu
But it is. It is specifically forbidden in the Spanish Constitution.

The sovereignty of Spain resides in all Spaniards.

~~~
ryanlol
Even the Spanish government does not agree with you.

Few individuals such as Puidgemont may very well have violated the law, but
supporting them simply isn't against the law.

~~~
notspanishflu
I mean voting for independence, not having an opinion, obviously.

~~~
ryanlol
As jayniz says, please find the part of the constitution that outlaws voting
for independence. (As opposed to organizing such a vote.)

~~~
notspanishflu
I replied to jayniz, maybe you didn't see it.

It's in the article 1.2 of the Spanish Constitution:

> La soberanía nacional reside en el pueblo español, del que emanan los
> poderes del Estado.

(The national sovereignty resides in the Spanish people, from which emanate
the powers of the State.)

~~~
ryanlol
That certainly doesn't seem to outlaw people casting votes for independence.

~~~
foldr
[http://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/spain-
constituti...](http://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/spain-
constitutional-court-finds-catalonia-sovereignty-declaration-
unconstitutional/)

~~~
ryanlol
This doesn’t seem to contain any information relevant to the legality of
voting. It merely discusses the validity of the referendum, which is a
separate issue.

~~~
foldr
Surely the two issues are intimately related. It's because the referendum is
illegal that it's illegal to vote in it.

~~~
ryanlol
I don't understand your logic. Could you try to explain this using common
legal concepts?

The constitution merely invalidates the referendum, it doesn't actually make
it _illegal_. However, obviously it's criminal to spend public money on
organizing an unrecognized referendum.

Given that the referendum itself isn't criminalized, it seems ridiculous to
argue that simply by participating one would be violating the law.

It's also important to keep in mind that even the Spanish government has not
attempted to argue that it's illegal to vote. This is just a meme being spread
on online forums by people who mostly don't even understand the difference
between the constitution and the criminal law.

~~~
foldr
I'm not an expert on Spanish law. (Are you?). I don't know whether merely
voting is illegal or not at the level of individual people. But the issue
seems largely moot, as it wouldn't be feasible to prosecute individual people
for voting.

~~~
ryanlol
>I'm not an expert on Spanish law. (Are you?).

No, I'm not. I've made an effort to read and understand the relevant law to
the best of my ability. If someone knows more I'd welcome any further
information.

>I don't know whether merely voting is illegal or not at the level of
individual people.

My understanding is that the constitution simply invalidates the referendum,
and I'm certain it doesn't explicitly criminalize it.

Keep in mind that even Madrid has not been pushing any claims that simply
voting would be illegal.

>But the issue seems largely moot, as it wouldn't be feasible to prosecute
individual people for voting.

It does, yeah. But above I was responding to a commenter describing the voters
as criminals, which is an unfortunately common view.

------
fiatjaf
Do you think any other State would allow one of its major sources of income go
away like that?

I really hope Catalonia makes it.

~~~
rayiner
I think the US would let California secede.

~~~
skinnymuch
Sorry maybe it's going above my head. Is this sarcasm or there's some context?

~~~
ghaff
I suspect he’s just saying that if California were to hold a binding
referendum to secede, he doesn’t think the Federal government would send in
troops to arrest the governor and take over California. I tend to agree
although, at this point it’s sufficiently a hypothetical that you would need
to know something of the circumstances that made it not a hypothetical to have
a good opinion.

~~~
skinnymuch
So seems like he was more than that with saying congress would vote to have
them secede.

I don't think the US would send troops of course but they wouldn't just let
California secede either. As far as I know precedent says it's illegal to
secede in the first place.

~~~
ghaff
Of course, the default is that no one can secede. There was an unpleasantness
in the 1860s over that. But ultimately, if a geographical region won’t do what
you want it to do, the alternative is to use force. For example, the Federal
government used force to enforce voting rights in the 1960s. If asking nicely,
threats, and sanctions don’t work, troops are mostly what you have left.

------
synicalx
As far as I can tell they want out for two reasons:

1\. They want to preserve their own culture, which is apparently distinct from
Spain's.

2\. They've some issue with the Spanish government, seems to be around
corruption and/or unfair treatment. Don't know enough about this to comment on
it though.

How does seceding make sense here? It's not the only solution, it's one of
many, and it's probably one of the worst - they're going to torpedo Spain's
recovering economy, and have to build a new country of their own. Who's going
to run the hospitals? Where's the money/electricity/food/water/fuel etc coming
from?

------
thetxef
National media is crying outloud people are 'adoctrinated' in Catalonia in
favour of independence...how that saying? like seeing the mote in one's
brother's eye without noticing the beam in one's own.

------
yellowapple
It's almost like Spain _wants_ Catalonia to secede.

~~~
justin66
It's worse than that. It is as if Spain wants Catalonia to look justified in
seceding in the eyes of the world. Pretty much everyone in the world would
have regarded a secession referendum from Catalonia - regardless of how it was
decided - as an unimportant joke until the Spanish government started beating
people over it.

------
pipio21
Given that "Catalunia leader" has dissolved the Parlament (Catalunia local
congress) and declared independence(but saying that he suspended it), it is
only logical what the Government has to do.

The central Government is not escalating anything, on the contrary, it has
been extremely weak.

Imagine that some State in the US declares the president of the US has no
decisions over his land, and that you follow your own local laws(made by you
on the go) instead of the laws of your country. It will not take more than 5
minutes of that for the country to act.

The Parlament local laws said that you need two thirds of the Parlament in
order to do anything serious. Those guys wanted to declare independence with
half the seats plus one. Those seats represent less people that those that
were not independentists.

In the case of Spain it has taken almost a month to do something, and most of
the responsible people are out there free, earning a very good salary for
trying to destroy the country.

In China when revolution won everything that Chinese elite did was bad, even
if they did some things well, like having hygienic manners. As a result,
living in China today is extremely disgusting.

In Spain the same happens with anything Franco dictatorship did. We always
have to do the opposite of what Franco would have done.

So because Franco was nationalist and brave(he risked his life over 200
hundred times in battle) politicians believe that democracy needs to be
against the nation and weakness the rule. They do not consider that you could
be a democracy and take your country seriously.

So they made it legal for politicians that want to destroy the system be part
of the System. They gave territories more autonomy, a local tv, local police,
the education and health system.

Local police now is acting like a private independentists police(like the SA
and SS were private armies of Hitler against Germany army and police). Local
TV and radio uses their airtime to put loop videos of Spanish police
"brutality" (nothing compared against last Germany action in the G20 summit or
Britain with Brexit protests), where the local police has not followed orders
by central Government.

The local health system(following also local orders) declared anyone having an
anxiety crisis for watching local TV loops to be an officially "injured" by
Spanish police. More than 200 "injured" by Spanish police had just watched TV.

~~~
syshum
>>Imagine that some State in the US declares the president of the US has no
decisions over his land, and that you follow your own local laws(made by you
on the go) instead of the laws of your country. It will not take more than 5
minutes of that for the country to act.

We have a strong Federalist Society and I think it would take much longer than
5 mins to act.

While the US Federal Government has gain alot of power after the last 100
years it is still not the Top Dogs, Under the US Constitution the State
governments can amend and/or abolish the Federal Government if they so choose.

The US Constitution is entirely about limiting the power and scope of the US
Federal Government, a fact that seems to be lost both in international
understanding of the US, and sadly domestically as well since we have more and
more people thinking the Constitution is about "Giving people rights" or
outlining what an individual can do, instead of its original and true purpose
of defining what the government is allowed to do

Prime example of this is National Speed Limits, there is no way for the US
Federal Government to demand a speed limit so when they wanted to establish
said limit of 65, they had to do it by bribes and extortion they tied federal
funding for roads to the passage of state laws establishing a 65 speed limit,
states that did not pass such a law would lose billions in federal money

So no I do not believe the reaction would be as you think it would be here in
the States

A more modern and pressing example is the ongoing conflict between several
states and the US Federal Government over Marijuana where multiple states have
now openly defied the federal laws on prohibition of this plant.

And on Immigration where they openly resist and obstruct enforcement of
Federal Immigration Law.

No in the US the State government are regularly in opposition to the Federal
Government

~~~
foldr
Have you forgotten about the Civil War? It didn't go down super peacefully the
last time a group of states tried to go it alone.

~~~
syshum
Have you forgotten about the American Revolutionary War...

To answer your question no, I have not forgotten about the Civil War and to
classify the Civil War as "states trying to go at it alone" is extremely
ignorant of the political, economic, and other factors around the Civil War

~~~
foldr
I don't see how else you would describe the secession of the Southern States.
It's basically Latin for "going it alone".

------
jseip
Democracy is democracy until it's not.

------
Findeton
Bound to happen, to say the least.

------
navigator01
Good, we can't allow the dissolution of nations.

~~~
tqkxzugoaupvwqr
Why not? Let them fork, iterate and improve. They have a strong identity and
economy, so they must be doing something right. Maybe being tied to a monolith
even hinders their progress? (Just ideas for thought.)

~~~
navigator01
Everyone on Earth has a petty identity. If we allow secession just so every
self-identifying group can 'rule' themselves then we encourage those petty
identities when we should be discouraging them and instead encouraging
universal humanism.

~~~
TomK32
Germany is a federated state, stark differences between the regions (the
dialects vary a lot, but not as much as the Spanish and Catalan languages
differ) but it does work because the government is not centralised like in
Spain or France, and the Bundesländer have their say there's a lot of respect
for each other. Spain's PP has always shown disrespect to any federalization
and autonomy of the spanish regions.

~~~
iagovar
Except the government in Spain is not centralised at all. The comparison with
France is just...

IDK where are you getting this ideas but is mostly the opposite. PP is
disrespectful about everything but that doesn't mean that there's no autonomy,
there's a reason why every region has an "autonomous government" and are
called "autonomous communities", basically because they have that autonomy.

More:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_communities_of_Spai...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_communities_of_Spain#Legal_powers)

------
notspanishflu
Since when applying the law is escalating?

All European Union leaders support the rule according a higher law.

~~~
jayniz
When shooting peaceful civilians with (illegal) rubber ammunition and kicking
them in the face, for example.

~~~
notspanishflu
Source for that?

~~~
ryanlol
[https://twitter.com/JordiGraupera/status/914406594779205632](https://twitter.com/JordiGraupera/status/914406594779205632)
[https://twitter.com/JordiGraupera/status/914408451870265344](https://twitter.com/JordiGraupera/status/914408451870265344)

[https://twitter.com/LordRennard/status/914434884990652421](https://twitter.com/LordRennard/status/914434884990652421)
Here's one of the international observers verifying too

~~~
notspanishflu
Are you really serious with those 'sources'?

~~~
ryanlol
Since you couldn’t discredit them, apparently I don’t need to look for better
ones.

I myself don’t see any particular reason to question Lord Rennard.

