
TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban - JumpCrisscross
https://www.npr.org/2020/08/08/900394707/tiktok-to-sue-trump-administration-over-ban-as-soon-as-tuesday
======
crazygringo
Good. We have something called "due process" in the US, and the attempted
TikTok ban violates it.

Due process is a bedrock of American law. It means government officials can't
just "do what they want" and make arbitrary decisions with specific targets --
which is exactly what the TikTok ban is.

You want to ban TikTok? Great, you need a specific law from Congress that
outlines under what circumstances companies may be banned in the US, and then
prove the specific company meets those standards.

None of that has been done here. The president is not a dictator. TikTok
should absolutely sue.

Note: this is regardless of anything TikTok has actually done privacy- or
security-wise. The point isn't whether they're dangerous, the point is whether
we can meet some _standard_ of showing that they're dangerous. If they're
dangerous, we need to establish how and why _legally_. This is what separates
the rule of law from dictatorship.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process)

~~~
mcv
Exactly. As far as I'm aware, TikTok is pretty much malware, meant to collect
every single possible piece of information it can get access to on your phone,
so I would recommend everybody to avoid it, and I'm not opposed to a ban at
all.

What matters is the way it's banned. And why. And the current process feels
every bit as wrong as TikTok itself.

What the US needs is proper data protection laws. And then it should enforce
those laws equally against US and foreign companies. Just arbitrarily banning
one thing because you realise that what you always allowed for US companies,
is suddenly a problem when it's a Chinese company, is absolutely wrong.

~~~
parliament32
TikTok collects less data then Facebook, Linkedin, Google, and thousands of
other apps in the app store. "It collects so much info" is pure FUD.. the app
doesn't even request the Location permission FFS.

Please provide a source.

~~~
foresto
TikTok might (as far as we know and at any given moment) collect fewer
individual pieces of data than other apps, but they have been caught
circumventing protections and covertly collecting data.

[https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/tiktok-tracked-
use...](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/tiktok-tracked-user-data-
using-tactic-banned-by-google/ar-BB17QeHb)

Their actions are not justified by what other apps do. Regardless of whether
GP's comment included speculation or was merely using hyperbole, the sentiment
is reasonable. At this point, I think it would be irresponsible to defend
TikTok.

See also:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23634138](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23634138)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23684950](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23684950)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21725139](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21725139)

------
gampleman
So if the problem is that TikTok is gathering too much invasive data on US
citizens (and supposedly siphoning it to China), and their defence is
basically "So what, it's legal and everyone else is doing it too!", then isn't
the obvious solution making actual digital privacy legislation that would make
such data vacuuming illegal? That would solve the problem and make the
American market a fair playing field rather than this hamfisted protectionism.

~~~
squarefoot
That is not the problem. I'm not a US citizen, but let's pretend I am; as a
normal citizen (ie, not a politician or high profile important person) would I
be more concerned about my personal data being sent to a foreign country who
doesn't know me, my family, my job, and very likely will never give a damn
about what i think, or rather my own government who has all interests to know
what I think, especially during protests? I have zero trust in Chinese
government, but if I had to choose, even as the European citizen I am (not
high profile, not employed in critical areas etc.), I'd rather send my data to
China than to my own government.

~~~
x86_64Ubuntu
You make it sound like you are forced to download the app at gunpoint.

~~~
squarefoot
Ah sorry, that wasn't my intention, I don't even use smartphones or social
media, smartTVs or closed source operating systems/software (1).

My point was, if I have to be concerned about privacy (in fact I actually am,
see above) why should I fear about a foreign government while my own one is
without any doubt more interested in knowing what I think? Of course should
one day I become an important public figure, or a key person in some critical
environment, all the data about me would suddenly become gold; that's a very
valid point by another commenter. Of course my post was from the point of view
of someone who doesn't plan, nor could even choose, to become one anytime
soon.

(1) hence my comments where very often I argue about closed device drivers and
blobs, which are the best possible place for planting spyware.

~~~
executive
> I don't even use smartphones or social media

you just posted this to a social media site

~~~
squarefoot
Well, non _those_ social media sites. USENET is also a social media for that
matter, though I think nobody would call it as such.

------
badrabbit
Is this not a freedom of speech issue? The right is guaranteed for foreingners
in the US as well.

If they can ban tik tok, they can ban signal or briar because those also might
send your encrypted data overseas or because their use among "violent"
protestors is a risk. How about VPN apps that siphon your personal data to
china and russia! Haha

Here's the thing, US bigtech complies (in secret) with US intel community just
like tik tok complies with CCP's MSS. Matter of fact, I happen to know with
certainty and with first hand accounts that the US intel community offensively
uses american made apps and services to spy against naturalized law abiding
americans on american soil just as they would with a foreigner working for the
CCP in China.

You might say, China bans US media companies so US should as well. And I will
say to you that's absolute nonsense. China is a totalitarian orwelian
nightmare state and the US is supposed to be a beacon of liberty and freedom
in the world. The US can ban tiktok's usage amongst US government and military
and anyone that does business with them. But by what right do they get to
restrict communication, an unregulated non-financial interaction between
americans and anyone else?

If americans want to be spied on by China in exchange for being able to use
tiktok it's their right and this activity is beyond the reaches of any elected
government. Even if there is a law allowing congress or the president to ban
tiktok, this law is overriden by the bill of rights that restricts the
government from making laws that constrain speech and communication between
citizens and anyone,and that guarantees tiktok due process and a trial before
being found of any wrongdoing. Congress can however restrict commerce, as in
financial transaction and for profit activity with tiktok and advertisers,
what congress or trump have no authority to do is to tell americans and tiktok
they cannot communicate with each other. Freedom of speech is meaningless if
no one is allowed to listen to you.

This needs to be done right. Do not throw away your rights by creating a
precedent set by the supreme court that lets government restrict your speech.
These sneaky bastards will always worm their way into slowly taking away
rights from the people in order to preserve their social order.

I don't like tiktok and if you care to go back far enough into my posting
history you will see how much I hate the CCP.

What is given can be taken away (if your right to communicate with a foreign
entity is given by the government). And if they can ban one app,banning others
is a matter of legal mental gymnastics.

~~~
khuey
There's no general First Amendment right to free speech for foreign nationals
not physically present in the US.

~~~
boomboomsubban
The First Amendment prohibits laws abridging free speech. There is no limit
placed on who is entitled to that right.

~~~
_-david-_
There was generally always considered to be 5 things that were not protected
under the First Amendment. I doubt think any of the founders would disagree
with the notion that the following where not protected under the First
Amendment.

1\. Libel

2\. Slander

3\. Treason

4\. Certain threats / incitement to violence (like hiring a hit man)

5\. Obscenity

~~~
boomboomsubban
All of those are examples of limiting what is considered free speech, none of
them limit who is allowed free speech.

------
zpeti
Will a chinese company really comply with the US court system in terms of
discovery? I would question if they are going to comply with discovery in a
way that a US company might. What exactly is forcing them to hand over actual
documentation and not just forgeries? Will the Chinese court system get them
in trouble for that? I doubt it.

After all many publically traded chinese companies in the US aren't actually
compliant with the same laws as US companies are.

~~~
Traster
I might be missing something, but I don't see the relevance of discovery when
TikTok is suing the US government. The government will need to establish that
it followed due process in drafting and executing the executive order. I can't
see what relevant information TikTok would hold about that? Posisbly they
would have correspondence between the government and themselves, but you would
expect the government to have copies of that too. It may be that the order was
carried out because of TikTok's behaviour, but that would need to be behaviour
that the government has documentation of, so it wouldn't come through
discovery.

Also, just to be clear, this law suit isn't going to be litigated by Chinese
lawyers, the lawyers are going to be US lawyers who have to adhere to the US
standards. If they think that TikTok is failing to provide something to the
court or are acting unethically they are obligated to tell the court of be
disbared.

~~~
DetroitThrow
DoJ could ask ByteDance for information about TikTok US data security. It's a
no brainer to see why DoJ proving this issue would be hard if the laws were
stringent, but it doesn't seem like his entity list (if that's what he's
using) power has any restrictions on Chinese foreign commerce - historically
it's been interpreted as very broad, so as far as SCOTUS will let him.

------
catsarebetter
I don't get why he decided to ban tik tok and tencent and I'm not the biggest
fan of his by any stretch of the imagination, but if America wants to ban 1
Chinese app, why is that an issue? They literally copied silicon valley
businesses for decades in China.

The problem I have with this though, is that it's not a way to get protect
American interests, it's probably the first in a series of last ditch efforts
to portray a certain political stance before the campaign. And the effect of
banning wechat, tik tok, and tencent will stoke an already considerable flame
of anti chinese perspective, which the chinese americans on our soil, have to
suffer for. I say ban the crap out of all Chinese apps if that's just what it
is, but let's all make sure not to throw out our own under the bus with it.

~~~
parliament32
Because permitting banning apps without due process is a dangerous precedent.
Next up will be Signal because you could use it to talk to dangerous foreign
nationals, or VPN apps because you could send secret data to the evil-state-
du-jour. Process matters, even if this particular app doesn't.

~~~
catsarebetter
You're right, obv. Just got caught up in the fear of what the implications of
this are on one side.

------
panpanna
Not sure what to feel about this one.

I don't like this company, which has already started censoring foreign
nationals based on what CCP allows.

At the same time, how can a single person decide the fate of a company in a
different country? What will be next?

Furthermore, what if EU decides Instagram is somehow a threat and must be shut
down?

~~~
itsoktocry
> _At the same time, how can a single person decide the fate of a company in a
> different country?_

How is TikTok's fate being decided by a US ban? The CCP does this all the
time, it isn't uncommon to ban foreign software.

~~~
ausbah
because America isn't China?

~~~
sumedh
So what is your solution to make sure China plays by the rules?

~~~
La1n
Implement rules that everyone has to follow. A good regulatory privacy
framework instead of banning apps from a economic rival.

~~~
sumedh
How would that enforce China to play by the rules?

~~~
La1n
Cause if they don't you can punish them according to the law. That's how laws
work.

~~~
anonymousab
Which is what the US seems to be attempting to do. The president does, under
the law, have fairly broad powers when it comes to foreign nations.

~~~
ausbah
to single company? how about all the other platforms owned by Chinese
companies? League of Legends or the like?

------
evbpcapfxy
Why is congress not involved if it's so important? Should the president really
have this power?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Why is congress not involved if it 's so important?_

Congress creates laws. The President enforces them. This is an enforcement
action--it's not unusual for Congress to be uninvolved.

> _Should the president really have this power?_

Multiple Congresses gave these powers to the President [1][2][3]. The current
and next ones are free to take them back.

My personal belief is no, the President shouldn't have this power in the
absence of clear and present danger. We need a commission, likely under
Commerce and/or State, that assesses civil fines and passes prosecution
recommendations to the DoJ. Furthermore, we need legislation describing (a)
which countries are deemed economically friendly and economically adversarial,
(b) how those determinations are made and (c) what companies from those
countries can and cannot do as well as (d) how they may achieve "safe harbor"
status ( _e.g._ by locally hosting data and submitting code for periodic
review).

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Emergency_Econom...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Emergency_Economic_Powers_Act)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exon–Florio_Amendment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exon–Florio_Amendment)

[3] [https://www.treasury.gov/resource-
center/international/Docum...](https://www.treasury.gov/resource-
center/international/Documents/Summary-of-FIRRMA.pdf)

~~~
virtue3
IMHO TikTok being owned by the CCP now is a clear and present danger to all
Americans using the app.

You make some fair points, but there is no way that I would trust a government
agency to actually do code reviews and verify that a company isn't doing
something wrong.

I feel increasingly unsafe because this app is being operated by a company
that is beyond extradition with the USA. So if they ARE busted for doing bad
stuff, who is getting jailed?

In an era where every snapdragon SoC seems rootable from any old application,
and you can use machine learning to pick out key words from text streams, do
we really need this app in the market?

~~~
DiogenesKynikos
It's owned by ByteDance, not the CPC.

~~~
endogui
ButeDance is a Chinese company responsible for complying with directives from
the CCP. If one doesn't trust the CCP, then one should not trust ByteDance.

~~~
coldcode
Facebook is American company responsible for complying with directives from
the US Government. If one doesn't trust the US, then one should not trust
Facebook.

How is this any different? The US is one of the Five Eyes countries. They
routinely spy on their own people (see Snowdon et al). I see no difference
between the two in this regard, other than the US has a court system that
sometimes acts independently and has a Constitution that sometimes is
followed.

~~~
sumedh
> If one doesn't trust the US, then one should not trust Facebook.

Which is why Facebook is not allowed in China.

~~~
La1n
Because it doesn't comply with local laws. What law does tiktok not comply
with?

~~~
sumedh
Which local Chinese law is FB not complying with?

~~~
sbmthakur
I guess the one that mandates their participation in Chinese government's
national intelligence activities.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law)

------
khuey
Discovery in this should be fun on both sides.

~~~
ChemSpider
Yes. It is no surprise that they sue, but maybe that was a mistake. Because
depending on the result, it might get TikTok banned in the EU as well.

Or the result is that indeed their operation is 100% independent of their
Chinese parent company and no US data ever touches mainland China... which
would surprise me.

~~~
bawolff
Honest question: would it matter if they stored data in mainland china?
Wouldn't it still be fine if they are storing data there but not giving it to
china gov? (Not that i really believe that any data in china is safe from gov,
although i could say the same about usa, but what is the actual bar that the
us gov has to meet to show its a national security risk? Is data on china soil
sufficient?)

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
> Wouldn't it still be fine if they are storing data there but not giving it
> to china gov?

That situation does not exist. Chinese law basically means that any data held
in China can be accessed by the government at any time.

~~~
panpanna
Yeah, buy according to US law American companies must comply with government
requests even if the data is stored abroad.

So basically, why should anyone trust a US company if US thinks tiktok giving
data to their government is a problem?

~~~
macintux
American companies have a legal system to protect them against unlawful
requests. That rule of law is under attack, but exists, which does not seem to
be the case for China.

~~~
throw44532
Don’t National Security Letters and a Secret Courts bypass that?

------
m3kw9
Hello, the data angle is just a diversion for kicking out tiktok and we chat
getting too big and kicking American tech giants ass. Too dominant. It’s
protectionism

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Tiktok maybe, but wechat has negligible market share in the USA (And anywhere
outside China), mostly just used by people who come from China.

~~~
m3kw9
We chat banning US trying to high ball China, it’s extra chips in negotiation.

------
mnm1
This ban is clearly a distraction by the white house to take attention away
from actual national security matters, specifically the foreign hacking of
elections. It's absurd that this is a priority but protecting our electoral
process is not. Only fools would believe a social network like this is a real
threat.

------
tomxor
> the president's order appeared rushed and did not include carveouts or
> exceptions for TikTok to maintain any legal representation, which the
> company plans to argue is a violation of due process rights. [...]
> Typically, if the federal government launches an investigation, it will
> inform the company with a subpoena or some other kind of notice [...] no
> such outreach from the White House requesting evidence took place before
> Thursday's executive order. TikTok lawyers view that as shortcutting
> standard procedure.

These are pretty ironic allegations considering It's all because they are
Chinese owned.

------
popup21
Big mistake. The position of the USG is National security. The discovery
process is going to be ruthless.

------
OneGuy123
Imagine US companies suing China for not allowing them to operate there.

People would say "China can decide what they want to allow".

Well if China can decide (which they did first) two can play this game.

Also TikTok says this ban is baseless. If USA's ban of TikTok is baseless,
what base does China have for banning everything?

~~~
izacus
China is a totalitarian regime which doesn't follow due process and basic
freedoms.

I strongly hope that your strange "tit-for-tat" doesn't extend to basic rights
of people and businesses on US soil. US is supposed to be better than that,
remember?

~~~
traveler01
The free market is a two way thing. What, you wanna allow a totalitarian
regime to have it's companies operating in your soil while expanding their
influence?

This situation should've been stopped a while ago, China banned every company
they wanted while the others let them operate everywhere according to the free
market rules.

~~~
MperorM
Free market does not need to be a two way thing to function. If the Chinese
have to spend their money on non-US goods, those earning thw profits will be
more inclined to spend their money on US goods.

Exports is what you pay for your imports. It's better for US citizens to be
able to buy Chinese products even if Chinese citizens can't buy us products.
They can pay for it by exporting to other countries from which China buys.

------
cmurf
As long as they have standing and a chance of winning (their claims aren't
frivolous) then a court might grant an injunction against the 45 day
compulsory sale while this lawsuit proceeds.

------
tomcat27
It's a matter of who owns the user activity data on TikTok whether ByteDance
retains rights to sell or rent without informing public to someone at some
point in future..

------
exabrial
This is best case scenario. It'll be up to them to prove they're not leaking
info to CCP, or prove there was a time they resisted a government mandate to
do so.

HFGLWT!

------
runawaybottle
I believe this is what the TPP actually wanted American companies to be able
to do in China, be able to litigate against the CCP in some global court.

------
naveen99
Anybody else binging on tiktok before it gets banned and in the remote chance
an American can’t save it by buying it from bytedance ?

~~~
falcolas
In a world with more quality entertainment than one could consume in their
lifetime, no. I never even started on tiktok, since it offered so little in
comparison to everything else out there.

But, as with everything, that’s just my opinion.

~~~
naveen99
How do you know if you never tried it ?

------
jcmontx
Two bads don't make one good, IMO. You can't combat authoritarianism with more
authoritarianism.

------
est
Huawei also to sue the U.S. I wonder if that ever happened?

------
bawolff
> The app has also been used to antagonize the president, including when
> thousands of teens reserved tickets to the president's rally in Tulsa,
> Okla., with no intention of going, inflating the Trump campaign's
> expectations for the event and causing embarrassment over the disappointing
> turnout.

Forgot that was organized on tiktok. All makes sense now. If US was really
interested in national security i'm pretty sure zoom would go long before
tiktok

~~~
odshoifsdhfs
Forgetting Trumps' feelings about the Tulsa rally, I truly believe the Tulsa
thing was the smoking gun. We know that TikTok did manual moderation of topics
sensitive to China, as well as some more non-ethical ones (censuring/pushing
results back) of disabled and 'ugly' people. My girlfriend was offered a job
moderating for TikTok and their package details with the work described left a
bad taste in my mouth to be honest.

But forgetting that, can we with 100% certainty say that the Tulsa rally
fiasco:

a) Wasn't an idea and orchestrated by the CCP?

b) Was some teen's idea, but then was pushed to the top for political reasons
by the CPP?

If you can't say with 100% certain NO to these questions, and taking in
account the US and China are in some sort of 'cold war', doesn't it make sense
that the US goverment cuts the feet of an app that can change election
results?

Yes, Russian interference with facebook is also a possibility, but at the end,
Facebook (and twitter, etc) are US entities, and if there is indeed some weird
things going on, they can be investigated, banned, etc. the US can't do the
same with regards to TikTok.

(ps: Not american, have no skin in who wins the election, just pointing it as
an outsider a possible reason)

~~~
tooltalk
So do you think Congress, both the House and Senate, also overwhelmingly voted
to ban Tiktok because of the poor showing at Tulsa rally? smh

~~~
khuey
Congress voted to ban it from federally owned computers which is much
different than a blanket nationwide sanction.

~~~
tooltalk
That's because Congress can't put a blanket nationwide sanction expediently --
it instead limited it to federal employees where they have absolutely
authority, and pretty much cleared path for Trump's action.

------
tannhaeuser
I don't want to stir up controversity even more, but with POTUS reigning by
decree most of the time, and a self-referential two-party politics cartel,
isn't the US already into a constitutional crisis of sort? I mean, the US
administration has every reason to question China's asymmetric conditions for
investment, and the West turning a blind eye towards China totalitarism due to
greed and economic necessity, but the current president's ad-hoc actions
against partners (NATO, Canada, EU, Mexico, and others) don't amount to a
strategic goal so much as a short-sighted signal of "doing something" in
election campaigning. In fact, these actions have made it more difficult or
even impossible to side with the US. The TikTok ban, apart from its terrible
looks (intrusiveness into an already US-dominated market), seems to only
follow Trump's desire to black-out an alleged anti-Trump social platform in
upcoming elections. The reasoning for allowing Russia to meddle with elections
OTOH should be even more concerning in geo-political terms: that Russia's pro-
Trump stance is because Trump staying in power will only serve to weaken
Western countries.

------
akie
Both completely unsurprising and entirely justified.

------
ailun
I hope they win. Living in China, I told my friends here that at least they
will have their day in court - a win would really help show an advantage of
the US system in a high-profile way.

Trump is doing so much to hurt the US image among Chinese citizens right now.
His administration emphasizes the importance of the distinction between the
government and the people, but his actions are only driving the two closer
together. Poor strategy in my opinion.

Also, I’m really worried about the supposed Tencent ban. There’s no way I can
get rid of WeChat...

~~~
ta17711771
> There’s no way I can get rid of WeChat...

Just strong network effects, or what

~~~
ailun
Yeah, including everyone at work and our customers. I could do payments
through Alipay, but there’s no way people are going to accommodate me in other
ways.

------
ausbah
even if any of the allegations against the platform are true, banning a single
major platform like this - especially coming from someone as ham-fisted and
blatant as Donald Trump - won't solve any of the problems people have with how
China runs their businesses

------
codingslave
"I don't like Trump, so I will side with Tik Tok"

Whether you should side with Tik Tok or not, the above statement applies to a
massive percentage of people who don't agree with the Tik Tok ban. This is
dangerous thinking

~~~
diffeomorphism
Who says that?

------
wmichelin
While I think TikTok is a cesspool, Trump banning TikTok is a wild
overextension of Federal power. How any "small gov't" conservative is okay
with this, while over 1000 Americans are dying of COVID per day nonetheless,
is beyond me.

They need to educate Americans on the predatory nature of TikToks software and
move along.

~~~
ehsankia
> While I think TikTok is a cesspool

Is that referring to the content or the company itself? I don't see how it's
any more of a cesspool than any other social platform. Twitter? Facebook?
Reddit? Every sufficiently large platform is filled with a very wide range of
content, from great to awful.

As a company, I do agree they have shady practices, but again, don't most
other social media apps such as Facebook and the gang use similar tracking and
data collection? Of course that's a low bar to compare to but I don't see why
they're being singled out here.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
> I don't see how it's any more of a cesspool than any other social platform.

It actually is uniquely bad.

A disproportionate amount of the content consists of the sexualization of
underage girls.

The way the thing is set up, there is some kind of audio, someone does a thing
(usually a dance), and then other people try to do the same thing to the same
sound. The audio is generally nonsense. One of the currently popular ones is a
Russian cereal commercial (mepas zoo zoo zoo). Okay, fine. But then somehow
the majority of the audio clips are misogynist or misandrist. Every other one
seems to contain the N-word. And they're all catchy tunes that get played over
and over and get stuck in your head. It's pretty messed up.

~~~
ehsankia
I've been using TikTok for a year and I have not seen a single girl dance
video in months. Not to say that those don't exist but there is far more
content, yet people who've never used TikTok is just underage girls dancing to
music. That's not too dissimilar than if I went to a subreddit dedicated to
posting photos of barely legal girls, and claimed that's what reddit was all
about. Similarly, Youtube also struggled with similar issues on its platform.

------
known
TikTok is modified version of
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical.ly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical.ly)

