
Silicon Milkroundabout: Forget the banks, come and join a London startup - lucraft
http://siliconmilkroundabout.com/
======
ladon86
Yes, this is what's needed. I like the line about the banks. My biggest peeve
with the UK scene is that we lose so much talent to banks and consultancies,
especially among graduates; anything to turn that around is a step in the
right direction.

~~~
gaius
The truth is in the UK the _only_ industry paying a decent wage for technical
work (not just CS grads, but engineering, physics, maths, etc) is banking.

I am a Mech Eng graduate and my CV has been floating around in various
databases for years, and I still get recruiters calling me and offering less
than half of my current salary (and I'm no rockstar, just an ordinary worker)
to go and work on something mechanical for a big engineering company. It
really is a joke.

This is all tied up in the vestiges of the class system, technical people are
still thought of as "blue collar" (despite being better educated than most
white collar workers) and the management class will never pay us fairly -
except in banking where they are quite clear about what is worth what. I
gather in the US it's different, they don't have all that baggage holding them
back.

~~~
lucraft
Not sure about class, perhaps developers just are more valuable to banks than
startups. Otherwise it sounds right.

However I'm sure I would have gone stir crazy with boredom by now if I worked
in a bank :) (I have low boredom tolerance)

~~~
rbanffy
> developers just are more valuable to banks than startups.

That makes me wonder about the implications. What kind of tech startups you
find in the UK?

~~~
metabrew
take a look at the logos on the link for this very submission, that's kinda
the point.

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fsipie
I'd like to present a different perspective. I've worked at 3 startups in the
past, including one of my own. None of which had much financial success and 1
of which cheated me out of several thousand pounds.

Though it's been interesting, in the sense of the chinese proverb, I sometimes
wish that I'd just worked at a bank for the past 15 years.

~~~
swombat
_Though it's been interesting, in the sense of the chinese provert, I
sometimes wish that I'd just worked at a bank for the past 15 years._

I can understand that. I worked at a big consulting company, at a global bank
client, for 4 years. From personal experience, however, I'd like to correct
your perception a little.

1) Yes, the money is better and more regular, but you end up spending a lot
more as well. So you won't make as much as you think you will.

2) While you constantly hear about people making astounding sums of money in
banking, the reality is that unless you work your socks off and are lucky to
be in the right place at the right time (hey, that sounds like startups!) you
will stagnate at a decent but not particularly amazing salary. And if you work
your socks off, you won't have that much time to enjoy the money anyway.

3) This extra money comes with a cost: your soul. I'm not kidding. If you're
the kind of person who derives great satisfaction from loving your work and
making a difference, working at a large corporation for a long period will
slowly but surely strangle and kill something very precious inside of you.

Money is a commodity. Enjoying your life, doing something you love, feeling
like you make a difference - you can't buy those things, no matter your
salary.

~~~
rapind
I'm going to take issue with #3. There's this falsely accepted wisdom that
large companies are evil and small companies are good.

There are plenty of startups out there run by sharks (or sometimes idiots)
looking to drain your talent dry for little or no reward. Working at a few of
those can be just as soul sucking.

Also I'd like to add that if changing the world and leaving a legacy is your
main desire, then yes working at a startup is probably your thing.

If you really just want to enjoy your family or extracurricular lifestyle
without worrying about your paycheck then maybe something with a little more
security is ok. I have friends who work blue collar non-technical jobs and
enjoy the casual atmosphere and complete lack of stress.

~~~
swombat
Point #3 has nothing to do with large companies being evil - I don't think
they are intrinsically evil or good, much like startups, as you point out.

What is certainly true about work in large corporations is that there is a
_lot_ of waste and politics, so much so that I think it's fair to say that a
large percentage of the average job in a corporation is basically waste. If
you're particularly unlucky (as I was on some of my projects), you can even
end up doing a project which is a complete waste of time, where everyone knows
that it's a complete waste of time, but it needs to be done in order to score
someone somewhere some political points that will advance their career.

To me, that is soul-destroying. I can't work unless I care, and forcing myself
to care when there is no reason to grinds away at an important part of who I
am.

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earnubs
Hi, I've worked in a couple of startups & agencies around the British Isles
and one investment bank in London. My experience would convince me to advise
that you should work were you want to work, but in general my experience is:

1) if money is the prime motivator, work for investment banks, preferably as a
contractor; 2) if you want a breadth of experience, work in a good web design
agency; 3) if deep domain knowledge is what you want, work in a startup.

(Of course, you can't do the contracting without a few years experience in any
of the above.)

The points are all a generalisation but this final one is not, it's not what
you are doing, how much you are getting paid or where you are doing it, it's
who you are doing it with. The human factor is, in the long run, the most
important thing. Are they smart? Good, you'll get smart too. Are the decent
human beings? Good, you'll live a long life.

Humans: the cause of, and solution to, all life's problems :)

~~~
raarky
Just wanted to back this comment up.

I'm in the same boat - I've contracted at various companies(financial, media,
etc etc) and currently working at a startup.

Contract at large companies if you want money. Join a startup if you want
lifestyle & scene.

Remember tho, if you work at bank you can still go to some of the many events
the scene puts on :)

------
flondon
The interesting discourse here is why graduates find the big IBs/Consultancies
so appealing, more so that joining a startup. In my opinion, this is due to
the perception that a high flying blue-chip career gives - 99.9% of graduates
would prefer to say ‘I work for Goldmans’ rather than ‘I’m going to work for
an unknown technology startup around Shoreditch’ - this impresses grandma and
the parents who have subbed the £30-40 university costs for their kids.

I think the counter to this is that within the UK, there is a dearth of
success stories involving young tech entrepreneurs - the big one that sticks
in my mind is the million-dollar-pixel guy, who as the name suggests made a
million! (There are of course others, but I've not seen them as widely covered
in the media)

Looking at the example of silicon valley, there are so many examples of tech
entrepreneurs making it big at a young age - maybe once the London scene has a
healthier number of well known (i.e. the Daily Mail writes about it) exits,
the perception will improve and we will see a higher number of bright
graduates preferring to join a startup.

~~~
timthorn
Don't know about IBs, but consultancies offer the chance to work across a real
range of clients and industries, and in a variety of roles. The ability to do
something fresh on a fairly regular basis but without changing employers is
appealing to certain minds.

~~~
mattmanser
Haha, yeah, they'll be photocopying at a wide range of different companies.
Reality check, ask people who have actually done this stuff, all the ones I
knew the work was dull but partying continued like it was uni because they're
with a bunch of other graduates.

Most large companies don't let the noobs anywhere near the clients. They're
pyramids, the longer you stay the more interesting work you get to do. This
competes with the better the job you can get elsewhere, which causes gradual
attrition in the ranks. It's all about who can stick it out the longest.

Ground zero is very, very dull work. Like photocopying while being charged out
at hundreds of pounds an hour.

Remember, these are graduates, they're totally useless in the real world at
the start.

~~~
timthorn
I don't need to ask people what the work is like because I've first hand
experience. I joined a top tier consultancy after several years in "proper"
tech, and whilst I didn't come in as a grad, I've seen enough to know that at
least here, photocopying roles are rare.

On the other hand, I've had a fantastic breadth of experiece - technical,
commercial, in great teams and on my own. I work with really interesting and
significant clients across sectors, and have the pleasure of seeing my
contributions making a real difference. I have done work here that has quite
literally resulted in lives being saved.

Not dull at all.

------
djhworld
This sounds like a good afternoon. I'm going to a gig in the evening too.

I've been looking for something like this for a while, I've always wondered
how people get recruited into startups without 'being in the know' as it were.
When you look at job aggregators 99% of the jobs are for huge corporates,
usually through the proxy of a recruitment agency.

My only concern about this event, for me personally anwyay, is I graduated 3
years ago and I've been working professionally as a developer as soon as I
left University. I'm not sure if this event is aimed at people like me or
fresh out of uni grads or not.

~~~
intranation
At a senior employee at one of the companies hosting (Smarkets), I can say
that we would welcome any and all interested developers to the event. Being
fresh out of uni is certainly not a requirement!

~~~
joeconway
I'm thinking of going even though I'm not graduating until next year. Would
you be interested in meeting people who aren't immediately available but are
looking to get familiar with the scene?

~~~
JonnieCache
Whether they're interested in meeting you or not, if you turn up and start
talking to them they won't have much of a choice in the matter.

------
samengland
For an event appealing to those "fresh out of uni" it's very badly timed. Most
of us are still in exams, but only until the end of May. It should have been
scheduled at least a couple of weeks later.

~~~
rbanffy
Did banks book up all good venues in that period? ;-)

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upthedale
Great idea. Will there be later events? I ask because the exam season is
currently in full swing for some students who may be otherwise interested.

~~~
beck5
This is true, I live in Sheffield so attending means at minimum 1 valuable day
lost in crunch time at uni so not sure if it is worth the risk.......

booking train ticket tonight then.

------
deathwarmedover
I was going to pass this discussion onto my friend who is doing dev contract
work at a bank, but then I remembered he's not allowed onto anything on the
internet while he's at work, LOL.

------
joeconway
I've just registered. I'm on one of the better CS courses I get the impression
from my peers that most of them want to go work for big organisations and
consider the idea of working for a startup as unthinkable. I think thats such
a shame

~~~
wyclif
What's also a shame is that these UK companies don't allow remote work. I
think lots of US devs would be interested, and since visas are capped anyway
remote seems rather obvious.

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will_critchlow
Is there any way for other companies hiring devs in London to throw our weight
behind this?

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kierank
This event shouldn't just be about _joining_ a startup in my opinion. It
should also be about how graduates should _start_ a startup.

Also the location in Shoreditch may put off some of the hardcore tech people.
It would have also been nice to see some more hardware startups but you're
probably going to have to go to Cambridge or Berkshire for those.

~~~
njs12345
What's in Berkshire of relevance to hardware companies?

~~~
kierank
Along the M4 corridor there are quite a lot of hardware companies.

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stuartd
Websense has categorised your site as 'Potentially Damaging Content' - you
might want to get that changed.

~~~
deathwarmedover
Thanks for the report btw, we got it recategorised to "Job Search". :)

~~~
stuartd
Really? It's now categorized under 'Malicious Web Sites'..

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rorohello
Hi All,

I hope the Milkroundabout Folks don't mind me piggybacking on this post (I
applied to come to their event, but didn't get in :(

I'd like to let everyone interested in mobile apps know about another
networking event OPEN TO ALL on May 31st (Tuesday Night, 7-10pm) at El Paso
EC1V 9NQ, just across the street from Bar Music Hall. The event is an official
PechaKucha <http://www.pecha-kucha.org/events/pknapp> and we have some great
presenters lined up so far from INQ Mobile, TurnedOnDigital (makers of The
Situationist), Quipper and more.

You can register to attend here: <http://www.amiando.com/WZJZCJU.html>

Ryan Sommer Director, MaintainPR ryan@maintainpr.com

------
ig1
The problem is that it's too late, most of the banks and consultancies finish
hiring in Jan-Feb, many of the big tech firms will have finished by now as
well. Most of the good undergraduates will have already accepted offers, so
this is actually coming too late for them.

------
cfelde
If you want to go into "banking" (and have the skills needed), but would
prefer a startup then maybe opengamma would be interesting:
<http://www.opengamma.com/>

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wyclif
I'm in the US and would love to go to this, because if I had an offer and help
with visa issues I'd move to the UK in a heartbeat. Unfortunately I can't
afford the airfare.

~~~
hcho
I doubt any startup will be able to arrange you a work visa at the moment. Non
EU worker visas are severly capped these days and the available is taken up by
bigger companies.

~~~
pyrhho
I'm curious how the Non-EU Worker Visas impact things like telecommuting...

~~~
hcho
It doesn't. The parent worker was talking about moving to the UK.

~~~
wyclif
Do any of these UK companies allow remote work?

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adaml_623
Since there is no contact info on the website. Can I just ask why you want a
URL for me?? :-) You say you won't share my email address but what are you
doing with my other private info?

I mean this only because I'm actually curious and I'm trying to work out which
URL to give... Hackernews profile page??

------
ropiku
I think payment is still an issue with startups. Hopefully that changed but
last year I interviewed with a couple of startups (some of them on this list)
for summer internships and possibly remote work and was offered £1k/month in
London.

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andytwigg
Hi all, Acunu (<http://www.acunu.com/jobs>) will be here - if you're
interested in algorithms and file systems or just a great hacker, come and
find us! Say hello at jobs@acunu.com

------
ayers
Just a quick question on attire, am I correct in presuming this is a casual
event and therefore we should not dress up like we would for an interview?

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adaml_623
That's an awesome list of companies. There are a few missing from that front
page who I hope are still around on the day.

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tomstuart
Is there any indication of what kind of event this will be? Is it a
conventional recruitment fair? A party?

~~~
robfitz
It's at a nice big pub with fancy beer and a stage for live music, so I'd
guess it's a social event plus the companies introducing themselves from the
stage so you know who to focus your mingling on.

~~~
calpaterson
Hmmm...as a graduate I really don't know how to equip myself at these kind of
events. I wonder how I should go about fixing that

~~~
JonWood
There's not a huge amount you need to do. It might be worth having a look at
the sites of some of the companies listed so that you know vaguely who you
want to talk to, but other then that, just turn up and make sure you have some
way of taking down contact details for people - a pen and a notepad are
probably your best option, unless you're particularly good at typing on a
mobile phone keyboard.

The important bit is to talk to people once you get there, since it's unlikely
that people are going to come and seek you out in the corner.

------
softbuilder
What's with the milk?

~~~
thomson
Milk used to be home-delivered in Britain--the act of companies touring
universities to attract recent grads to apply is known informally as a
milkround.

~~~
dogonwheels
Used to be? Don't tell that to my milkman! :)

I still get milk and eggs (and sometimes some pretty bad knock-off Irn Bru)
from ours. We're in the semi-countryside just outside of Leeds, and it's not
at all unusual around here. Wonderful service!

