
'I'm sad that I didn't have sex until I was 37' - Tomte
http://www.bbc.com/news/stories-43956366
======
lonelyengineer
I can relate to this,

I'm a 30 year old virgin, graduated with tech-related masters degree, and
still a virgin.

I don't resent women, I love women and some of my best friends are women, but
I can't see myself ever having a physical experience due to my physical
shortcomings.

I'm well under-averagely endowed, a member of an undesirable race, and quite
frankly think the age for acting as a goof for me has passed. I don't know
how/when to ask women out, and I'm afraid if it'll be interpreted as sexual
harassment. I'm no good looking chap for it to be considered flirting, might
as well endure loneliness than social suicide.

I cry myself to sleep some nights, but at least I get to live a life where I
can feed myself and distract myself by helping others through
work/volunteering.

Cherish your loved ones, and don't take them for granted. The pain of never
having those experiences is something I'll never wish for others.

~~~
berberous
Go to therapy. You may well be below average in looks, and have to settle for
a partner with below average looks, but everyone has shortcomings and I'm not
convinced you couldn't find a life partner that would make you happy if you
tried. It sounds like whatever your physical deficits may be, you are also
insecure, fearful of rejection, and not working on improving your social
skills. Don't quit before you've even tried.

~~~
noobermin
And dear god, no one has to see dating anyone who isn't Kim Kardasian
"settling". I've had sex with women who aren't what society considers "above
average" but it was still fantastic. And my girlfriend isn't a model but she
and I share a connection that could not be replicated with anyone else.

A lot of the issue is society tries to input ideas about what is "sexy" into
our heads and a large part of realizing sexual liberation (both for yourself
and with your partner) is dismantling those ideas and throwing them in the
trash.

~~~
abandonliberty
Ugh. We have whole communities of these people (e.g. incels). I have female
friends who will be single forever with impossibly long detailed lists of
requirements that will never be met.

It's really quite sad.

On the other hand if you can buy into something that isn't considered highly
desirable by society but is very prevalent, well, you can have a really,
really good time.

~~~
lonelyengineer
I have no such detailed lists. I'm human and flawed, some of it stems from not
accepting myself and a lack of self-love.

~~~
tasuki
> not accepting myself and a lack of self-love

And you're aware of it! That's a very good first step towards fixing that!

~~~
lonelyengineer
Thank you, it wasnt long before I started thinking if I was undesirable
because of my physical features AND my attitude.

It's a slow process and I hope I too can one day have a normal life, with
someone by my side.

~~~
tasuki
The physical features aren't nearly as important as you might think. Eg
there's plenty of ugly actors who are nevertheless very attractive.

Your attitude is pretty good - you're open and eager to improve. Just continue
working on yourself!

------
gregw2
I waited till I was married at 36 to have sex. No regrets. I consider it a
sign of strength amidst my social and other weaknesses. YMMV.

~~~
trav4225
Same here. 44 and counting...

------
Bucephalus355
This is getting more and more common. A couple of reasons for this:

\- the world is dividing into “social haves” and “social have-nots”. It’s not
a surprise that as wealth and inequality have taken off dramatically, we’d see
social and sexual repercussions.

\- ppl really underestimate the role community has played in American history
in “hooking up” people and playing matchmaking. I know going to bars looks
awesome in the movies and is indeed a cool thing for meeting men/women, but
it’s inherently not scalable for a society and really only possible for the
subset who can conquer social anxiety

\- due to financial constraints, people are living in “extended adolescence”
longer and longer. Also is a consequence of ppl getting more and more
education. Hard to date as actively when you live with your parents

~~~
Bucephalus355
Really want to emphasize that the loneliness of “loveless men” is one of the
very underestimated sad things of the late 20th and early 21st century.
Despite hollywood tropes, men, who have smaller social networks than women,
typically benefit more from relationships and suffer more after their
dissolution.

Timothy McVeigh, of the Oklahoma City bombing, the Columbine killers, as well
as many of the September 11th hijackers, were all virgins. Many authors and
postmodern theorists have made this connection.

This is not an isolated issue. It links together with the lack of economic
growth of the last 40 years, the rise of autocracy throughout the world, and
the failure of capitalism and secularism to dictate any kind of end goal,
purpose, or mission statement other than a kind of bland “do what you want, be
you”.

Angela Nagle very effectively even links this to the growth of populism and
even the alt-right in her book, Kill All Normies.

[https://www.amazon.com/Kill-All-Normies-Culture-Alt-
Right/dp...](https://www.amazon.com/Kill-All-Normies-Culture-Alt-
Right/dp/1785355430/ref=nodl_)

~~~
dbg31415
> Timothy McVeigh, of the Oklahoma City bombing, the Columbine killers, as
> well as many of the September 11th hijackers, were all virgins. Many authors
> and postmodern theorists have made this connection.

Do countries with legalized prostitution have more, or less, domestic
terrorism?

~~~
wollw
Sir Issac Newton was a virgin too, just to add some balance to things.

~~~
sridca
Yea; one's position in the sex/desire spectrum doesn't necessarily change
their general value/happiness in life. I think one key is in finding something
(a hobby) that you identify strongly. I think they call it sublimation.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_(psychology)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_\(psychology\))

------
noobermin
It's upsetting this is getting flagged and people are flagging comments left
and right. Sure, some people are saying objectionable things, but shutting
down discussion of real issues that affect people is how people become
alienated and distraught and suffer alone.

------
megaman22
The less fucks you give, the easier it is to get laid, in my experience. Act
interested, don't do anything actively offputting, and act when the
opportunity arises. It gets wildly easier as you get older, for some reason.

------
DoreenMichele
_I felt women had the right to go about everyday life and enjoy a night out
without having anyone approach them.

You hear those cliches of teenage fumbling - well, I wasn't a teenager, so I
found I knew what to do. I also found it was exciting and pleasurable. Some
people say the first time isn't good, but it was good.

I was lucky when she fell for me, she gave me complete and unconditional love
and that's rare. And I'm lucky to have had it._

Based on the ending remarks, I am inferring this is intended as sympathetic
and supportive for people who self identify as _incels._ But I will point out
that there is very, very likely a cause and effect relationship between some
very positive outcomes he describes and his description of fundamental respect
for women driving his reluctance to try to pick anyone up, at least in part.

I think he is romanticizing the things he did not have that he imagines others
do have. The reality is that most people don't feel like every relationship
they had was a positive and life enhancing experience.

Some things he avoided:

Fathering a child in his teens and becoming permanently trapped in poverty
because of it.

Acquiring an STD, which can include AIDS.

Having a violent encounter with another man over female infidelity or other
traumatizing relationship drama.

During my divorce, my perspective on _experience_ changed. One man I knew
during that time was kind of a pick up artist. He had a lot of sexual
experience, but he told me he had never been in love before.

I had gotten married at age 19 to another 19 year old. I had no previous
experience with younger men. It was very hard for me to accept that anyone
younger would be interested. The concept seemed incredibly alien.

I had _experience_ , but this was completely new territory for me. The pick up
artist I knew also had experience, but being in love was completely new
territory for him.

I talked with men who were older than me. They, too, were still having new
experiences. The fact that they were experienced did not mean they weren't
also stumbling their way forward with new experiences.

I am sorry this man has these negative feelings, but I cannot simply accept
his very negative framing and conclusions unquestioningly. I don't think he
has ever really tried to find what was positive about the path he took. The
negativity is simply a foregone conclusion in his mind.

I'm not convinced this is really the best message for trying to somehow reach
out to people who identify as incels and somehow be encouraging, especially
given the subtext here that the assumption is that if you don't resolve this
or get help with it or something, you, too, might do something terrible like
what happened in Toronto. The author does not indicate he did anything
terrible like that due to his own lack of experience and negative feelings
about it. Whether he did or not, obviously, it isn't true that simply being
celibate and unhappy about it will turn you into a terrorist.

Perhaps we could come up with something to say about this that is more
constructive than unquestioningly accepting that unwanted celibacy is the real
and true cause of a terrorist act and, thus, others who are similarly celibate
are similarly terrorists in the making.

~~~
noobermin
So I get what you're saying and I actually really like your points that
highlight the negative experiences one can have if they are sexually active.
Moreover, he is romanticizing relationships. However, I don't think he
necessarily is trying to illicit pity, he might be plainly explaining his
feelings at the time. It's similar to how people talk about their alcoholism
or depression, they might not be explaining their vice/issues in order to make
people feel sorry for them or to wade in self-pity, they are just being frank.
I tried to read it charitably, perhaps to a fault, I don't know.

~~~
DoreenMichele
I didn't say anything about him wallowing in self pity or trying to elicit
pity. It looks to me like you are "rebutting" stuff I did not say.

~~~
noobermin
Reread your comment. I think I interpreted "sympathetic and supportive of
[...]incels" as characterizing his intent for the response of readers of his
account, since he is someone who might be an incel. That's probably wrong. I
apologize.

------
himom
Doing the hard work of personal development, including getting dating
coaching, is where it’s at, for people whom are serious to make necessary
changes to be their best self.

I have:

\- the world’s worst anxiety (constant hyper vigilance, tension, shakes and
near panic attack 24/7) rn induced by antidep medication and I can’t drink

\- pseudoParkinsonian essential tremor so my hands are shaking like an 80yo...
I can’t write and can barely type

\- myoclonus - random, brief, involuntary movements of major muscle groups

\- mild Asperger’s so I’m the life of the party (lol)

\- ADD-I so everyone thinks I’m weird but roll with it bc there’s no other
choice

\- stutter in the most awkward way possible (silent block - gasping for air
instead of starting to speak)

\- broke af

Even with all that and more BS, I still number close, full close and get
pulled by females. If I can hookup same night with hot girl(s), anyone can. No
excuses allowed. It’s a matter of commitment to seek feedback and invest the
effort to improve one’s outlook and habits... lack the knowledge or the
practice, and someone won’t know what types of red flags to look for or how to
keep someone else interested.

~~~
guskel
Did you use dating coaching? Any particular program or coach that led to a
breakthrough? What venues are you finding these successes and at what age did
you make the transition?

------
catacombs
Oh, boo hoo.

The author hated himself, and that stumped him when searching for a partner.

Learn to love yourself, and the women (or men) will come. People are attracted
to confident people. No one wants to date someone with so much self-loathing
in their life.

Life is more than just sex.

~~~
JKCalhoun
I don't disagree with what you say, just disappointed in your callousness. The
writer is being honest and vulnerable.

------
csomar
Here is something that worked miracles for me: Move to an easier place (ie:
Thailand/Philippines for men; Probably Paris/San Jose for Women).

The dating market is easier there. You'll get a boost in confidence, as well
as experience in handling the other gender.

~~~
empath75
Please don’t go to the developing world to try and pick up women, that’s
really gross and exploitative behavior.

~~~
adbge
Indeed, he should stick to his own race! /s

Seriously, the rhetoric around dating foreign women is absurd. Gross and
exploitative? A consensual relationship? /Really?/

Compare, for instance, the socially mandated opinions we're supposed to hold
around adopting a child from a foreign country versus "mail-ordering" a bride.
Most of the moral arguments for the former apply just as much toward the
latter, yet the latter is "gross and exploitative"\--why?

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the first is associated with
movie stars while the second is mostly low-status men?

~~~
meowface
The issue isn't with dating foreign women, but moving to a low GDP/standard of
living country because you want to more easily find a partner. The reasoning
is "women are more likely to date me, have sex with me, or marry me because my
race is a status symbol / because I have money". This is not the foundation to
a healthy relationship.

~~~
mercer
I'm not saying I disagree, but still: why not?

More than one person I know is in a relationship with someone from a 'poorer'
country and both parties seem to be pretty happy with the outcome. And wasn't
just men who were from the richer countries either.

~~~
meowface
I'm sure there are many people who meet organically with people from
developing countries and start a genuine romantic relationship, but that
doesn't appear to be what the parent poster was talking about.

~~~
mercer
It's also not exactly what I was referring to.

1\. What's wrong with a relationship that isn't "organic". What does that even
mean exactly? 2\. Same goes for "genuine".

I can see how there's degrees of 'health' to various approach, as well as
ethical concerns, but I strongly disagree that the approach should by default
or ideally be (primarily) 'organic' and 'romantic'.

