
Ask HN: Am I missing out by not being in sillicon valley? - fomophile
I&#x27;m a serial bootstrapper&#x2F;software engineer that has been consulting remotely for clients in between trying to start different lifestyle businesses.<p>I&#x27;m living in a small town away from any tech hubs, I feel like I have access to the best of whats happening in tech via the web but sometimes feel like my career is being hurt by not being in sillicon valley.<p>The lifestyle is laid back here, and things are cheap. I&#x27;m not in any kind of rat race. But am I just staying in my comfort zone and missing out?<p>I would be very interested to hear thoughts of devs who have lived in sillicon valley and whether or not they find it worth the high rents.
======
whalesalad
No, absolutely not. I just left and I couldn't be happier. We work in this
ironic industry where, on one hand, you can do this job from literally
anywhere with an internet connection... but there is this tremendous pressure
to be in the Bay Area. It's all hype my man. Save your money and keep doing
what you're doing. Correlation is not causation: there are other ways for you
to stay current, you don't need to be in SV.

~~~
api
The thing that's concentrated in the Bay Area is capital. You can work from
anywhere, but raising money is exponentially easier when there's a ton of it
in your back yard.

------
fredkbloggs
It depends, of course.

If your goal is primarily to save money so that you can retire or don't have
to work or can choose when/where/how to work, you're already on the right
path. Economically, demand for housing in the bay area is strong enough right
now that rents are rising to whatever level people can afford to pay. That
means you're basically assured of having little or no surplus unless one of
your ventures is wildly successful.

If your goal is to develop a bigger network of people in your industry, you're
probably missing out, although your client network will be very valuable to
you as well. Also, not all of the people you're missing out on are people you
want in your network anyway...

The culture in "silicon valley" is toxic. People are obnoxious and
narcissistic; many are pathological liars and self-promoters. Plenty has been
written about this, both serious and satirical. There are certainly people who
enjoy it, but it sounds like you're fairly happy where you are, so you
probably aren't one of them.

If you're tired of bootstrapping and want to get funded, you'll probably have
a better chance in the bay area or some other large city. Otherwise this is
moot for you.

Also, remember that most of "silicon valley" isn't involved in technology any
more. It's become mostly a media/advertising center. There are still
technology companies around, but the focus has definitely shifted.

You might want to ask yourself not "am I missing out?" but rather "what would
I like to change about my present circumstances?" and go from there.

~~~
TulliusCicero
> The culture in "silicon valley" is toxic. People are obnoxious and
> narcissistic; many are pathological liars and self-promoters.

I grew in Silicon Valley and work here now as a dev at one of the major tech
companies and have no idea what you're talking about. The people I work with
seem totally normal.

Well I mean, they're all relatively enthusiastic about technology, and
generally affluent, but aside from that I don't see anything particularly
unusual.

~~~
PopeOfNope
> Well I mean, they're all relatively enthusiastic about technology, and
> generally affluent, but aside from that I don't see anything particularly
> unusual.

The culture of the bay area in general can be very toxic for a particular type
of individual. If you're religious or lean to the right in any way, you'll be
met with open hostility. The culture of the bay area is also passive
aggressive. Nobody wants to offend or confront, so if your manager doesn't
like you, you probably won't know it. You'll just get the shittiest tasks and
won't be sure why. It's a particular kind of hell for someone who values
honestly and blunt talk, like a new yorker, for example.

~~~
eruditely
There are neoreactionaries in the bay area and they seem to be doing fine.

~~~
PopeOfNope
Stunning counterargument.

------
talsraviv
I'm in a similar situation and I've decided that while I won't live there,
it's worth visiting my friends and contacts once in a while to catch up and
learn about what they're doing.

I've been told by many friends in the Bay Area that day-to-day, it doesn't
feel to them like there's enormous networking because everyone is in their own
routines. They advised me that a huge percentage of networking can be
accomplished by telling people you're "visiting for two weeks".

However, living there long-term and having your personal network double as
your professional network is a different order of magnitude benefits. My
perception is, from the outside and from visiting, the reason specific
companies get bought or partnered with is often because they were more closely
socially connected and geographically nearby (more likely to hear about one
another, have friends in common, etc.)

I believe it's not something that happens overnight, but over time as an
investment in the community and being there long-term.

I've recently made a conscious decision to put other priorities in life (where
I really want to live, and my life outside tech) on equal or greater footing.
For those for whom that's no conflict, I'm sure it's fantastic to live there.

------
arebop
I moved from the midwest to San Francisco. In my experience:

    
    
      -> the culture here is more optimistic and open-minded; people are more willing to take risks and try hard things
      -> the weather is more moderate
      -> the scenery is more interesting and varied
      -> there are vastly more (good) job opportunities for software engineers.
      -> Bay Area/NYC software engineers get paid more than engineers elsewhere *on average*. But they are also much more skilled on average. If you're skilled enough to be hired in the bay area, then you probably will be paid less than what you could demand where your skill is rare.
      -> cost of living is totally unreasonable in the bay area, and the stats understate this because many people here have massive effective subsidies from rent control and fixed property taxes.

~~~
michaelchisari
Bay Area does pay more than elsewhere. However, given the extraordinary rents,
it doesn't pay _that_ much more. If money is a concern, I'd say somewhere like
NYC or LA is a better option.

~~~
arebop
Sorry, I was not clear: I think if you have the option to work in Silicon
Valley, you can make more elsewhere.

The housing crisis and (to a much lesser extent) generally high wages amplify
this imbalance.

Lots of people say that Silicon Valley pays particularly well, and I think
this is true only statistically. Silicon Valley pays world-class engineers
more than Chicago pays mediocre engineers. I believe a world-class engineer is
likely to make more in Chicago than in Silicon Valley, provided that the
engineer can find a suitable job at all in Chicago.

So if want to maximize expected income, I think you should live in NYC working
in finance, or if you don't like that option, anywhere in the U.S. except the
Bay Area. I don't know anything about the rest of the world so I wouldn't give
any advice about that.

If you want to maximize the likelihood that you can find an interesting job in
software, you should move to the Bay Area.

~~~
gamechangr
Maybe...I'm not sure if you can find "world-class engineers" that are somehow
interested in working with less than world-class coworkers (so if they were
paid crazy amounts of money perhaps).

------
tptacek
I lived in SF on-off from '98-'01, and I'm out there semi-regularly.

If you're hoping to raise funds for a company, there's a clear advantage to
being in SFBA.

If you're hoping to _avoid_ taking investor money, there's a _disadvantage_ to
being there, because of how the place impacts your cost structure.

There's such an intense competition to get new ideas, technologies, and that
kind of thing in front of as many eyeballs as possible that you're almost
definitely not missing out intellectually from living somewhere else.

I think it's also worth remembering that there's really, in a day-to-day
living sort of sense, two "Silicon Valleys" \--- the Oakland/Berkeley/SF†
Silicon Valley and the South Bay Silicon Valley. Most people aren't willing to
drive 2-3 hours regularly just to be casually social on a weeknight. So: even
if you lived in SFBA, you'd still have to pick _which_ SFBA to live in, and
"miss out" on a lot of the other part.

† _I may be being overly generous and there 's really 3 SFBAs, or maybe East
Bay is like an adjunct to both SF and South Bay, I don't know._

~~~
patio11
<tangent>Burritos (as generally served in US) are basically cheap concentrated
umami. Not my favorite form factor for it or what I would gravitate to at a
Mexican place, but I can see the attraction.</tangent>

~~~
bbcbasic
Tangent is an understatement, I would call that orthogonal!

Speaking of which, monads are like burritos :-)
[http://blog.plover.com/prog/burritos.html](http://blog.plover.com/prog/burritos.html)

~~~
narsil
I think patio11 meant to respond to
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9572750](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9572750)

------
wh-uws
Simple solution to find out?

You work remotely right? Split some time here. about 3 months here will let
you know for certain if you are or not.

There are alot of hostels and hacker houses (just google "hacker house sf" or
"hacker house silicon valley")

Also remember its really interesting how the layout of companies in the valley
follows the OSI model

[https://engineering.linkedin.com/endorsements/geographic-
tre...](https://engineering.linkedin.com/endorsements/geographic-trends-
skills-using-linkedins-endorsement-feature)

So make sure to spend time not only in San Francisco but also in Palo alto,
Mountain View, and maybe even San Jose.

That way you can experience the whole of whats out here and decide for
yourself.

Myself personally I found out I very much was. The level of talent and the
caliber of the average person in tech here is rarely paralleled.

Not to mention most other markets don't create the caliber of consumer tech
compaines I'm most passionate about and are more focused on B2B.

I learn alot through osmosis so I would be short changing myself to be
anywhere else if I want to be among the best in the field.

There are certainly snakes and sociopaths around but any place there is money
to be made or power to be had you will find those people.

SF and SV do the best job they can to still only reward those with the talent
to make big things happen.

~~~
Red_Tarsius
Awesome, I wasn't aware of "hacker houses". I've always wanted to visit (move
to?) SF, but the rents are a huge turn-off.

I'll check them out right after graduation.

------
idlewords
It's hard to answer this question without some idea of what your goals are.
What is it you feel you're missing out on? The chance to work with great
people? To make a lot of money? To eat a decent burrito?

~~~
sjg007
I think that the burritos in LA are better.

~~~
neonbat
Burrito based decision making is clearly the way to go.

~~~
kyllo
As is Burrito Driven Development!

~~~
HelloThereHuman
Let's write the manifesto!

~~~
neonbat
"Dear Humans, for the last several centuries you have used many different
mental strategies to try and make decisions. These seem to have produced a
generally optimal outcome (ignoring the genocides) with globally increasing
standards of living and increases in freedom for humans generally. We are here
today to proclaim that you have been wrong all these years. You could have
been so much better off if you had only migrated towards where there were more
burritos. Ignoring the blatantly counterfactual spin this argument carries,
the data is in. Burritos are king. Sincerely, BBD Evangelists"

------
AndyKelley
I live in Phoenix, Arizona. My cost of living is $800/month, living
comfortably (yes that includes rent, food, utilities, and transportation).
It's always sunny, and 3/4 of the year it's beautiful weather, and the rest is
swimming season. There are no natural disasters here, and when it rains,
people go outside because water is associated with fun. Everybody owns a car
and there is parking space everywhere. I'm not sure how life could get easier
here.

~~~
irl_zebra
Not being 100 degrees in the summer would be a start. I'm not a fan of SF, but
their weather is much more temperate (despite the annoying-ness of having to
carry a jacket with you all the time, all year for when it randomly turns to
50 degrees).

But maybe this is the part where everyone trots out their ideal personal
locale as fact.

------
wesbos
I think you can build a great life and career anywhere. There are upsides to
being in the valley, but there are many other upsides to living somewhere else
that you love.

Ultimately it's up to you to slam dunk your business.

I moved out of Toronto a year ago to a city (Hamilton) about an hour away
where houses were affordable and the city was seeing renewal. My mortgage is
much cheaper than a 2 bedroom rental in Toronto and I feel because I have such
low overhead, it makes me a much better entrepreneur. I'm willing to take many
more risks because I can make my mortgage pretty easily.

So - my quality of life is very high outside a major tech hub and because we
work on the internet, I'm still very involved.

I recommend you watch this video about Chris Coyier / CSS Tricks. He runs one
of the biggest web development websites around, two podcasts and CodePen from
Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRmbVOI6oIM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRmbVOI6oIM)

------
majestik
"The grass is always greener" right? :)

I work in the eye of Silicon Valley and sometimes I wonder if I might be
happier with more distance between me and the madness. They pay well to keep
me here but it's just human nature to wonder what's on the other side of the
fence, I think.

------
aantix
My family and I just recently moved away from SF. We lived there for close to
five years. I still consult remotely. My network is valuable.

Yes, it's worth spending some time there. Especially if you can find a company
that is successful in an area that interests you.

Some companies have fantastic engineering processes but still die because they
don't meet a market need. Some company's have hyper-growth but an atrocious
engineering culture. Tons have neither and die horrible deaths. A very small
few have positives on both sides.

If you're considering, be deliberate in your choice. Want to learn about
growing a company, try to get on a company that's showing signs of fantastic
growth (IFTTT, We Heart It). If you want to learn engineering processes,
choose a company that's incredibly opinionated about their engineering
processes and learn from them (Pivotal Labs, Carbon Five).

Please for the love of god, don't just choose whoever will take you.

------
killface
Always take quality of life into account.

SV has more opportunities for engineers/entrepreneurs, but then you're up
against people who have done a lot more of that, plus the outrageous housing
costs in the area. Oh, and the crazy traffic.

I was living in a 'burb and moved back to the city for quality of life. Being
able to walk to things (grocery store, restaurants, bars) was more important
to me than having a bunch of land. Also, my commute is now 5-10 minutes
instead of 30-90. The cost of it was a smaller house on a much smaller plot of
land, but we decided that's a sacrifice we're willing to make.

------
ageyfman
I chose what I wanted out of life, and moved to a place that had the most of
that (great food, good weather, reasonable cost of living and a growing
startup ecosystem). I lived in SV for a few years (2007-2009). It was great. I
live in Portland now, and it's better in many ways (lifestyle, cost of living,
ability to get out of the city) but it's def not the startup hub that is SV.
On the other hand, you can be a bigger fish in a smaller pond here, vs. SV,
where you're swimming with sharks. Both have place, but, for me, moving away
was a good choice.

~~~
bjwbell
Portland, great weather?! But I agree for quality of life Portland is better.

Unless you're one of the very few that work trumps all. Other factors can be
more important. I still live in my hometown (Sacramento) because family is
here.

Personally San Diego is more tempting than the Bay. An uncle moved for school
and never left...

~~~
lifeformed
Portland is only dreary in the cold season. You get a nice mix of sun and rain
other times. It's good if you prefer variety over constant 70 degree
sunniness.

~~~
gamechangr
My wife is from Portland and we go there nearly every year for the months of
July and August. Amazing weather during that time of year. I've been there ten
years (during the summers) and would highly recommend it.

~~~
Kalium
As a former Portlandian, I fully agree that Portland has amazing and wonderful
weather during July and August.

I will also note, as a resident of the USA familiar with the common calendar,
that there are ten other months to the year.

------
curo
I lived in the Bay Area for 3 years and might return. You do meet some pretty
cool people working on interesting projects.

Besides the networking you just feel pressure (and inspiration?) to work
faster and harder. Not just because your savings are being eaten alive, but
also because many are majorly ambitious.

On a list of top five things that will make or break your company, I don't
think Silicon Valley would make the list. But if you live and breathe your
startup and want nothing else in the world, it's worth a look.

------
dylanrw
Companies that want you in their office will say you're missing out. Investors
who want you to hire and raise from the area will say you're missing out. But
these things are only as important as you make them.

I will say that the weather is nice in much of the bay, SF has (I think) one
of the highest young single populations in the world which can make for an
interesting time, and there are many events that take place that could help
your business but a plane ticket can rectify that.

------
gamechangr
I'm gonna divide this into two questions:

1) IS THE BAY AREA THE ONLY GOOD PLACE FOR SOFTWARE ENGINEERS?

I think most would agree there are other good cities. Seattle, New York, or
Boston are great examples with large tech companies located there.

2) WOULD YOU BE MISSING ANYTHING?

Absolutely. Whatever city is behind Silicon Valley in second place, is very
far far far behind. The best and the brightest talent head straight to silicon
valley, so if you want to be exposed to new technology then Silicon Valley
sits a head and shoulders above the next place.

Peter Thiel made the statement that they are not opening Venture Capital
offices in any other city because they didn't think there was enough value,
meaning that the big ideas come to Silicon Valley - so venture capital will
wait for it there.

There is no EASY way to simulate the same network from afar. It works for most
people for 2-3 years or you need to actively visit regularly, but usually it's
some combination of the two.

In summary : if you care about working with great developers, learning new
technology, building a company/raising capital, or building a professional
network then Silicon Valley is a smart choice. If you care about having work
life balance, being near family, or saving earned income then the bay area
maybe a big mistake.

~~~
pikachu_is_cool
> The best and the brightest talent head straight to silicon valley

I know a lot of really good developers who left because of the toxic culture.

> so if you want to be exposed to new technology then Silicon Valley sits a
> head and shoulders above the next place.

This is not true.

> Peter Thiel made the statement that they are not opening Venture Capital
> offices in any other city because they didn't think there was enough value,
> meaning that the big ideas come to Silicon Valley - so venture capital will
> wait for it there.

All this means is Peter Thiel is providing VC exclusively in SV.

> There is no EASY way to simulate the same network from afar.

We have IRC, Github and tons of other social networking options that have been
more than enough for me, and surely for many others. Plus the SV isn't the
only place to network.

> In summary : if you care about working with great developers, learning new
> technology, building a company/raising capital, or building a professional
> network then Silicon Valley is a smart choice. If you care about having work
> life balance, being near family, or saving earned income then the bay area
> maybe a big mistake.

This is probably the only part I agree with here. The Silicon Valley isn't
objectively the _best_ place to build your career. If you don't give a shit
about work/life balance then it probably is a top choice, but if work/life
balance matters to you then it's probably one of the worst choices. You won't
fit in with the people in the valley, and you might end up getting depressed
or burnt out.

~~~
gamechangr
I am curious to get a little more information about your opinion.

What do you mean by "toxic culture". You said you grew up in the bay
area...what part?

I said... "so if you want to be exposed to new technology then Silicon Valley
sits a head and shoulders above the next place".

You said, "This is not true." WHICH CITIES ARE YOU THINKING OF as better than
Silicon Valley for exposure to new technologies? I would love to find the best
place possible and if there is a better place... that would be exciting to me.

>The Silicon Valley isn't objectively the best place to build your career ..
WHERE DO YOU SUGGEST?

>if work/life balance matters to you then it's probably one of the worst
choices... I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU 100%.

~~~
pikachu_is_cool
> You said you grew up in the bay area...what part?

Sunnyvale. I went to Homestead High School. It was 3 blocks away from Apple
HQ. Steve Wozniac went to one of our football games after Steve Jobs died...
presumably to reminisce about his high school days.

> What do you mean by "toxic culture".

I'd say that 1/20 people I've ran into fit into this personality type of "I'm
better/smarter than you" in a passive aggressive sort of way. Their opinion is
an objective truth, and anyone who disagrees with them is stupid. They tend to
look down on everyone who isn't as smart or successful as them. And when you
talk to them, all they give a shit about is how successful you are and what
your accomplishments are, and if you aren't as successful as they hoped you to
be then they give you the cold shoulder and think of you as a plebeian or
something similar.

It's kind of like what you'd imagine an asshole New Yorker to be, but they
don't say anything to your face.

I was definitely guilty of this while growing up there... I'm trying to
unlearn all of that shit.

And again this is about 1/20 people. You might not end up running into these
people but my high school and my first internship had quite a few of these
characters. It left a sour taste in my mouth.

> WHICH CITIES ARE YOU THINKING OF

Dunno. Depends on the technology. I was mostly just disagreeing. To say that
SV is best for exposure to new technology would have made sense back in the
80's with all that hardware, but 99% of the shit there now is just web and
mobile, which can be found anywhere as long as you have an internet connection
(and programmer friends to suggest you new stuff).

Like, if you want to build your career, all you really need to do is move to
where there's a lot of people. There _will_ be tech people there if the city
is big enough, and you'll probably make more meaningful and substantial
connections if you actually like and connect with the city you move to,
instead of just blindly moving to SV because that's what everyone else is
doing.

> WHERE DO YOU SUGGEST?

It literally depends on who _you_ are. What might be the best place to build
your career for one person might not be for another.

For example, on paper, SV would be the the best place to go because I have
shittons of connections there.

But I know I would get depressed. I'd long for a better life if I lived there.
And I'd hate myself if I got exposed to that 1/20, and felt myself becoming
like that again.

I'm going to try my luck in NYC, and possibly abroad in Germany if that
doesn't work out (unlikely).

~~~
gamechangr
Upvoted. I appreciate the feedback. That makes more sense.

NYC doesn't seem like the first place that comes to mind to avoid "that 1/20"
that think they are "better/smarter", however you're right than you can learn
mobile development from any location with a couple friends and a wireless
connection.

~~~
pikachu_is_cool
Did you also grow up in the SV?

------
loumf
I grew up in NYC and lived there until I was 32 and then moved to rural
Massachusetts. The time I spent in NYC has been invaluable to my career, but I
am able to draw on that (the network, the experience, etc) from where I am now
and get much of the benefit and a much lower cost. I currently remote to a job
in NYC.

So, knowing nothing about you, I'd generically say that, yes, a few years in a
tech hub can be a lifelong benefit.

------
JSeymourATL
Flashback: Mark Zuckerberg: You Don't Have to Move to Silicon Valley>
[http://www.inc.com/news/articles/201111/mark-zuckerberg-
in-a...](http://www.inc.com/news/articles/201111/mark-zuckerberg-in-a-rare-
interview.html)

Striking a balance -- it's also good to attend workshops, meet-ups, and
conferences in other markets.

~~~
gamechangr
>"I knew nothing, so I had to be out here. Facebook would not have worked had
I stayed in Boston,"

------
jerf
You don't say where you are, but one thing you may want to consider is that
your area is probably good at something that people in Silicon Valley, on
average, know nothing about, and live nowhere near. I live in the Detroit
area, and for all the drama, the automotive industry is still quite strong
here, for instance, and we have at least a bit of a medical research
community. Whatever you have in your area, you have an opportunity to get your
foot in, ram home your advantage of being local, and bootstrap that way.

It is likely that while you won't grow a billion-dollar social media site that
way that you can find yourself an underserved niche, or a niche dominated by
somebody still peddling software from the 80s, or something like that. This
turns the "problem" of not being in SV into a foundation of your career,
which, if that is what you are looking for, can be a good deal.

------
songzme
If you are young, ambitious, and enthusiastic about technology, then I'd say
you are definitely missing out. The energy you get from being surrounded by
other like-minded people passionate about technology is the most amazing
experience. Between meetups and parties, I learn about new technologies and
how its used to solve a particular problem regularly. I learn about new
technologies before it becomes mainstream. I get to try new apps and new
experiences that might never become mainstream. All these experiences and
learning will cultivate your creativity and as you grow older, might give you
a very unique way of solving difficult problems that would have stumped
others. Personally, I think that the cost premium of living in silicon valley
is worth it. If I had a kid in his/her twenties I would strongly encourage
them to live in silicon valley.

~~~
hobo_mark
That sounds.. quite distracting, a real-life version of checking HN all the
time. How would you find the time to focus on building something with all
these meetups and hype and... squirrel!

------
nabaraz
I moved to Orange County after living in Bay area for 4+ years and I don't
miss a bit. The ridiculous cost of living, full of pretend-like-entrepreneurs,
incubator scams etc was too much. Looking back I wish I hadn't caught up in
the hype of Bay area/silicon valley being the center of the universe.

~~~
killface
Yes, if there's some place to move to get away from people who think they're
the center of the universe, Orange County was definitely the way to go ;)

~~~
jkrejci
Nailed it, lol.

------
jedberg
It depends how social you are. The value of being here is being able to go to
social and networking events, and hanging out with others in the industry,
where you'll make serendipitous connections and discoveries.

If you're not into socializing, then you aren't missing out on anything.

------
fomophile
What a surprise to see my afternoon pondering on the front page. Thanks for
all the responses!

To get a little more specific with my point of inquiry, is in person
networking in silicon valley better than networking by making cool things and
showing people (on the web).

I've been disappointed in the past with all my in person networking (not in
the valley). The signal to noise ratio has always been terrible. My hypothesis
is that its better to make cool things (with tech) and show people (on the
web) and meet allies and fellow travelers that way. This type of networking
gives you access to the entire world, and should be much more efficient than
meat space.

~~~
gamechangr
I actually would look at it a different way. In one sense, if you don't "make
cool things" then it doesn't really matter where you live. That is the bare
minimum for building a network.

It's my opinion that you would have MUCH, MUCH more success in Silicon Valley
building a network of quality developers. It takes much more than cool
projects for people to want to work with you, recommend you, or invest in your
company. Culture fit is consistently expressed for a reason, it may even be
more important than cool projects (assuming you have some programming
background) for some companies.

Everywhere you go you meet someone building something, compare that to reading
HN from a far and hoping someone is paying attention (and impressed) at a
Meetup.

My 2 cents: Yes you are missing out with your in person network living in
other locations.

------
PopeOfNope
Nope. I lived the rat race for 7 years before I learned enough to get out and
do exactly what you're doing. If you're already successful enough at
consulting remotely and starting lifestyle businesses to be making a living at
it, then there's little benefit to going to the valley.

There are two exceptions, though. The first: if you want to start a fast
growing startup with venture capital funding. For that, you still need to go
to the valley. The second: if the customers for your lifestyle businesses are
silicon valley companies, then you want to go to where the highest
concentration of your customers are.

------
viiralvx
Explore alternative cities outside of Silicon Valley. I just graduated college
and I didn't want to be in the Valley because I didn't want to live and
breathe tech. I'm currently living in Austin, TX, working for a bigger tech
company and I love it. Its still a huge tech city and I have plenty of
opportunities for growth. But you have other cities such as Boston, Chicago,
Denver, Portland (?), and Los Angeles that are up and coming tech cities. Also
don't forget about NYC. Don't just limit yourself to one area.

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_random_
Not until you marry if you intend to. The quality of spouse material in
smaller towns is higher.

~~~
joshrotenberg
Care to elaborate?

~~~
dorfuss
I'd guess he means that it's easier to find a girl who writes less elegant
code than you _outside_ of the Bay Area ;)

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scottm01
Obviously only you can decide. My vote is no, not if you make an effort to
stay involved and to network at least somewhat. I live in San Francisco,
having moved here a bit over 3 years ago from the east coast (working in
Manhattan, living across the river in NJ). Before that I was in central
Virginia.

I love the bay area and enjoy how easy it is to stay connected and up to date,
but it's definitely a tech bubble disconnected from how the rest of the world
works sometimes. Housing is crazy expensive due in large part to demand,
terrible policy, and a weird west coast "I got mine" attitude that's so
pervasive among voters.

The bay area is right for my wife and I right now -- we are near extended
family, we enjoy being able to walk everywhere, we are easy day trips away
from amazing outdoor activities (world class scuba diving and hiking, skiing
until the drought finishes it off, etc). We put up with the crazy real estate
market because we have to (and I'm fortunate enough to work for a tech
company).

I would not move here solely for the tech ecosystem unless I was trying to
start and sell a company, though I would probably consider northern California
(or the pacfic NW) in general for other reasons regardless.

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igetspam
I've been in San Jose since 1984. I was three when we moved. I don't remember
anything else. I've worked in tech since the end of '99\. The valley has
changed a lot. I used to know my neighbors. People used to be polite and
helpful. It used to be easy to find a quiet place to sit and reflect, within
walking distance of your own home. None of these things seem to be true any
more. We have tech though... So that's a thing.

I've stayed because I'm a startup junky and haven't hit the Big One yet but my
current startup may be my last one. Early phase startups like to see your
face. We've grown to the point where I can wok remote and visit every couple
months. I'm finally able to leave California.

The valley is a neat place to be but I don't think it's a great place to be
unless you're willing to give up your right to make your own decisions and
give in to the hive mind. It's not a place for free thought, only free
engineering thought. Everything else you buy wholeheartedly or you play alone.

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interesting_att
If your goals are to make a good bit of money and retire by solely doing your
consulting business, then you definitely aren't missing out on much. Save that
dough up for when the bubble bursts.

That said, if you are interested in a new living scene, weigh the pros and
cons. SF has amazing weather and average person is pretty intelligent. However
they are passive aggressive as hell and dating scene for men is absolutely
terrible.

I don't know if you're seriously interested in it, but I also think you are
reducing your chance of building a huge startup, in large part because:

a) SF-tech is a positive signal for funding

b) easier access to funds from VCs + angels

c) easier access to tech clients (nothing beats face to face)

d) easier access to business information (want to find out how Zenpayroll
makes money? Find some employees and get coffee with them. Try doing that in
St. Louis).

e) A lot of great tech talent has moved here, so you can find some awesome
employees relative to other American cities

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georgemcbay
A shocking number of the developers who live and work in Silicon Valley think
JavaScript on the server is a perfectly good idea.

Keep that in mind when deciding whether living within that self-assembled tech
bubble is necessarily a good thing when it comes to being exposed to what is
ostensibly the "best of what's happening in tech".

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umeboshi
Most points made here are quite valid, especially around the burritos and all
the obnoxious pretender-preneurs.

I too live in the valley, and although it is a great place to live and
excellent place to raise a family, the cost of living is so prohibitive, even
with the high salaries. At the current growth rate of housing and related
markets, with almost no end in sight, plan on your cost of living consistently
going up 20-30% a year.

Sure it's hard to beat having one finger on the pulse of things, but it comes
a high cost, which makes it hard to validate for many. If you do decide to
make the jump, I'd make sure that your long game plan mostly sussed out. Most
important, know what you expect out of moving anywhere, don't do it blindly
like many, including myself have done. Though that said I don't regret it at
all.

I vote telecommute for a company here and jet-setting in on demand.

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matznerd
I think SF + SV have the highest concentration of interesting people in the
world. Just sitting at a run-of-the-mill meetup on a Tuesday night, you might
have one of the world's leading experts casually sitting next to you. I
haven't lived in any other place where it is like that.

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pikachu_is_cool
I'm a relatively new software engineer who grew up in the Silicon Valley.

I moved out the day I graduated high school and am never planning on coming
back (I'm 21 now). I haven't used any of my contacts from high school in order
to land myself a job.

I feel like my general quality of life has improved since I left. The bay area
is a really boring and expensive place to live. It is also very homogenous
(not race-wise but ideology and career wise), which could be a pro or a con
depending on what kind of person you are.

Also there are a lot of stuck up assholes that live in the valley (I thought
this was just how people were until I left - huge relief). The dating scene is
almost nonexistent compared to other places. And there's a huge filter bubble
there. I found it very suffocating.

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nogridbag
I've been pondering this myself as of late. I live near NYC but work in NJ. I
often feel like I'm missing out at my current job - but it's hard to make a
change as I'm getting compensated relatively well. If I were to go out west
I'd surely be competing with people much more talented than myself for similar
or possibly less pay.

I feel that NYC has a huge pool of below average developers that somehow find
a way to stay employed in the larger financial companies here. Of course I'm
only basing that on a small sample size of people I've worked with and
interviewed over the years. But I would imagine that on average SV has a much
greater concentration of talented devs and people genuinely interested in
technology.

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chrissnell
Consider some other options. I really like the situation that I'm in now. I
work remotely for a San Francisco company and enjoy salary that's inline for
that city, but I live in Tacoma, WA--one of the cheaper waterfront cities of
the west coast. I spend a week down in SF every month or two, catching up with
all of my awesome super-nerd coworkers. Being temporarily freed from the
demands of fatherhood, I spend my nights going to tech meet-ups and
networking. At the end of the week, I fly back to my nice, cheap city where I
can afford to own a gorgeous newly-renovated 4/3 Craftsman home in a great
neighborhood that we pay only $2400/mo for.

It really is the best of both worlds.

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msutherl
Yes, you're missing out by not being pushed out of your comfort zone. There
are many things you're not missing out on: expensive cost of living being a
good one, but even living in New York I feel like I'm missing out on the
challenge of being amongst so much raw talent and the dynamism / sense of
possibility you feel there. It pushes you, inspires you, and keeps you from
falling for your own bullshit.

That said, I don't think I would live in Silicon Valley proper, rather SF
where you can actually run into other human beings, which is the point. And
actually I personally wouldn't live in SF either due to the lack of any
meaningful cultural industries (art, music, etc.)

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stevewepay
If you're an actor and want the most opportunities, you go to Hollywood. In
the same vein, if you're in tech and you want the most opportunities, you
should go to Silicon Valley.

Just like Hollywood, Silicon Valley can be a very poisonous environment. So
it's a double-edged sword, because there are many unhealthy things about
living here (materialism, greed, house prices, wealth inequality, etc). But if
you're looking strictly at opportunity in tech, nothing surpasses it.

That said, you can definitely have a happy and prosperous life outside of
Silicon Valley. You don't need to be here at all to be happy and fulfilled,
but if you want a plethora of opportunity, your best bet it here.

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geggam
Yes, its worth it. I wouldn't retire here or even think about saving too much
money. What you learn here and the network you build is, in my opinion, not
something you can find anywhere else.

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joshmarlow
You might be interested in a middle ground. While the valley is a great
networking hub, you can probably get a similar but more limited experience
from some of the smaller startup hubs like Denver, Houston, Chattanooga (my
own home). You might want to visit one or more of them to consider your
options.

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gorbachev
If you're single and otherwise have few responsibilities, why not just give it
a go? Move over for a few months and see if you like it.

If you have predictable and steady income and can do that remotely from
anywhere, you could easily budget for a "trial period".

It'll be MUCH harder to do with family responsibilities.

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coldcode
I'm looking at moving somewhere more interesting (I live in DFW which mostly
sucks for programming) but SV seemed to expensive and overworked. What about
Austin or some other non-snow area? Or is the Northwest the place to go? I
lived in SV 20 years ago and it was reasonable but that was eons ago.

~~~
csbrooks
I've been in Austin for 8 years or so. Like it a lot. Plenty of tech companies
and jobs.

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TYPE_FASTER
I just listened to this relevant interview with Brad Feld, a VC in Boulder,
CO: [http://www.feld.com/archives/2015/05/build-life-want-
live.ht...](http://www.feld.com/archives/2015/05/build-life-want-live.html)

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tylerc230
I'm a freelance iOS developer living in soma SF. I do feel that a lot of what
I bring to the table is the ability to work onsite and discuss things face to
face. Despite all of our technological advances, I feel like there is just no
substitute for hashing things out face to face.

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SQL2219
Here are some other locations worth looking at:

[http://www.jobdensity.com/QueryGrid.aspx?q=687&t=Software%20...](http://www.jobdensity.com/QueryGrid.aspx?q=687&t=Software%20engineer&qt=5/14/2015%204:53:43%20AM)

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__xtrimsky
As someone who left the valley. I think not. I think we are the lucky ones.
The valley is only useful for VCs and having an enourmous choice of startups.
But honestly life is better away from it. Unless you can afford a 3M$ house.

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jheriko
i think in your sector of the industry it probably matters more than most. if
you care about games or finance, you will find that silicon valley is about as
far from the centre of that world as anywhere else.

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forrestthewoods
Not in the slightest.

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jbrad7354
No.

I moved here. It's terrible. Leaving soon.

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larrywright
I'm going to get hate for this, but here it goes anyway: no, you're not.

There are a lot of compelling reasons to be in Silicon Valley, but there are
(IMO) many more for staying away. You've hit on most of them: the laid back
lifestyle and the cost of living being the big ones.

There are a lot of companies that want you to be in Silicon Valley to work for
them, but there are quite a few who embrace remote employees (Etsy and
37Signals come to mind). Does it limit your job options? Probably somewhat.
Can you still do really interesting work but live in a place that isn't
insanely expensive? Absolutely.

If you're happy where you are, stay there and find companies that embrace
that. They're likely to be better companies to work for anyway.

~~~
d23
> There are a lot of companies that want you to be in Silicon Valley to work
> for them, but there are quite a few who embrace remote employees (Etsy and
> 37Signals come to mind). Does it limit your job options? Probably somewhat.

In the time I worked remotely, I couldn't help but get the feeling that it
also limited your career mobility options as well. Google hangouts or Skype
sessions are nice in theory, but when you're in one with a bunch of people
across the country who are in the same room together, you miss the subtle
quick back and forths with things like body language, as well as the more
important ones like actually being able to speak as much as the people
actually in the room together (or at all).

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michaelochurch
In general, I'd say that the answer is no.

It depends on what you want. If you can travel, if you can get out to 3-5
conferences per year, and if you get out to Meetups (or organize a few) in the
nearest major city, then you're probably learning just as much as you would if
you were in the Valley. You might be learning more, because you're more
relaxed.

That said, if you want to work for one of the giant tech companies, the main
office usually gets the most interesting projects. If you decide to work for
Google, try to get them to relocate you to Mountain View. The imperial culture
is strong in Bay Area tech giants and in venture capital.

In general, though, the Valley sucks (unless you're trying to raise money).
Under 30, you suffer a bad dating scene if you're a heterosexual male (and
I've heard that it's unpleasant more generally). After 30, you're too old for
the nonsense and, if you're thinking about having a family, forget it. San
Francisco is half-decent and has a lot of natural beauty, but it's
dysfunctional and shockingly expensive (worse than New York, and you get a lot
less!) There are a lot of great jobs in the Valley that I'd say you should
take if you're a typical person, but you'd take them in spite of their
location, not because of it.

