
Sperm Count Zero - pmcpinto
https://www.gq.com/story/sperm-count-zero
======
zaroth
I had heard that sperm counts are dropping. What was news to me was that the
decline is continuing, even accelerating, and also the concomitant drop in
testosterone levels, starting even in utero.

The bit about AGD was also pretty crazy — followed by the bit about men
becoming _less male_. Some fear-mongering there no doubt, but a topic which in
this era is more likely to be met with scoffs of “good riddance” rather than
alarm bells.

~~~
DoreenMichele
_likely to be met with scoffs of “good riddance”_

My first thought was that this may also cast light on the rise of the trans
rights movement. If men are becoming less male, surely this relates to so many
people saying "I'm really a woman trapped in a man's body." or vice versa.

This may also help explain why trans people are so often met with open
hostility as "freaks" etc. No, I am not defending their mistreatment.

But given how charged a topic that is, I imagine bringing it up will get my
comment flagged to death, not taken seriously.

I'm a fairly traditionally feminine woman and spent a couple of decades as a
homemaker and full-time mom. I am routinely met with open hostility from self
proclaimed trans activists, feminists, etc.

I personally like "manly men" and that's also not a PC thing to admit to. So I
will suggest it isn't just men the world is saying "good riddance" to. It's
also women in some sense.

If you want to argue that, please stop and think before dismissively attacking
me. People talk all the time about how gender is a social construct and is not
merely the bits between your legs. I stayed home with my kids and that had a
profound impact on how I think about many things. And the way I think is alien
to that of career women and they are frequently openly hostile to it.

~~~
newscracker
> I'm a fairly traditionally feminine woman and spent a couple of decades as a
> homemaker and full-time mom. I am routinely met with open hostility from
> self proclaimed trans activists, feminists, etc.

> I personally like "manly men" and that's also not a PC thing to admit to. So
> I will suggest it isn't just men the world is saying "good riddance" to.
> It's also women in some sense.

I think, in this context, we need better and likely newer vocabulary. I don't
believe that others would despise you or any other woman or man or an intersex
person or someone in transition for liking _certain characteristics_ (physical
and/or behavioral) traditionally and historically associated with men.

The issue seems to be — while we're untangling all the discrimination,
stereotyping and prejudices — that the current and older terms (like "manly
man") reek of all these negative things that are being questioned (where newer
ways are being sought to deal with). The impact of such broad terms is wider
than what people may generally think of.

To make a comparison (which may be taken differently by different people),
it's like using the "N" word and assuming that even a neutral or seemingly
positive reference should be accepted by others.

Language is changing all the time and adapting to the times. In this
particular case, I believe we should break down what something like "manly
man" means into constituent parts and try to use decoupled (from the original
term), yet concise and non-triggering, ways of expressing the same. It may not
be easy. It may sound weird at first. But it's something we need as a society.

Lest this be dismissed as "oh, we just need new words to fix the world", I'd
like to reiterate that the basis is to allow thoughts to change.

~~~
DoreenMichele
FWIW, after posting, I did contemplate adding:

Contrary to popular opinion, _manly man_ and _misogynistic asshole_ aren't
actually synonyms.

~~~
newscracker
I didn't even think of these two terms together in this context and I don't
think of those as synonyms, and my usual thoughts in this case are about the
characteristics and attributes that are used to discriminate against those who
don't seem to be "manly men" or those who seem to be "manly men", while
society (or parents or others) wants them to be and fulfill what they (the
others) think is their traditional role. Tradition is not set in stone.
Nothing is. The clash is sometimes with certain behaviors, but it's also many
a times with prejudiced associations that discriminate and affect others.

P.S.: I also believe that short pieces of written words and sentences can be
misinterpreted online, and probably malice attribute to where there is none.

~~~
DoreenMichele
I was agreeing with you. I am only saying so because my impression is that is
not your takeaway here.

------
myrandomcomment
My wife and I had one child. I know the time and date we conceived. We wanted
more. Never happened. At 40 I asked her if she wanted to speak to a doctor to
figure out why. We both did the math on it....cost and age of child at end of
high school and said, no. I have friends that spent 100K on their offspring,
and it was an emotional roller coaster. 2 kids later, happy, and a 3rd
unexpected.

Fatherhood is the best startup I ever did.

------
Nomentatus
In mammals generally testosterone levels and photoperiod are very closely
linked. It would be surprising if our increasing use (abuse) or artificial
light didn't sharply drop our testosterone levels.

~~~
spraak
Testosterone also drops from high consumption of animal products.

~~~
gaius
Testosterone drops from high consumption of soy products too, so what are you
going to do?

~~~
spraak
It actually doesn't [1] [2]. But if it did, then just avoid both.

[1] Clinical studies show no effects of soy protein or isoflavones on
reproductive hormones in men: results of a meta-analysis.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224)

[2] Soybean isoflavone exposure does not have feminizing effects on men: a
critical examination of the clinical evidence.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20378106](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20378106)

~~~
hokkos
It actually does, there is a documented event of it happening, but to be fair
it is harmless for the majority of the population in resonable consumption :
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18558591](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18558591)

 _A 60-year-old man was referred to the endocrinology clinic for evaluation of
bilateral gynecomastia of 6 months ' duration. He reported erectile
dysfunction and decreased libido. On further review of systems, he reported no
changes in testicular size, no history of testicular trauma, no sexually
transmitted diseases, no headaches, no visual changes, and no change in
muscular mass or strength. Initial laboratory assessment showed estrone and
estradiol concentrations to be 4-fold increased above the upper limit of the
reference range. Subsequent findings from testicular ultrasonography; computed
tomography of the chest, abdomen, and pelvis; and positron emission tomography
were normal. Because of the normal findings from the imaging evaluation, the
patient was interviewed again, and he described a daily intake of 3 quarts of
soy milk. After he discontinued drinking soy milk, his breast tenderness
resolved and his estradiol concentration slowly returned to normal._

Also there is a clear explanation of why so much plant products have hormonal
disruptors in it, to modulate the fertility of herbivore, but it's not a story
NutritionFact would tell you

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1474615/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1474615/)

 _Plants have physical and chemical mechanisms for defense from attack by
animals. Phytochemical defenses that protect plants from attack by insects
include antifeedants, insecticides, and insect growth regulators.
Phytochemical options exist by which plants can modulate the fertility of the
other major group of plant predators, vertebrate herbivores, and thereby
reduce cumulative attacks by those herbivores. The success of such a defense
depends upon phytochemical mimicry of vertebrate reproductive hormones.
Phytoestrogens do mimic reproductive hormones and are proposed to be defensive
substances produced by plants to modulate the fertility of herbivores._

~~~
spraak
So in huge quantities it rarely happens... soy is also completely optional and
not necessary, so not a big concern. Avoiding animal products is laughably
easy without soy.

------
kevin_thibedeau
The chart of sperm count vs plastic production is pure BS. It shows nothing
but a lack of journalistic integrity.

~~~
minhazm423
would you mind expanding?

------
sytelus
I wonder how substantiated these numbers are but I can't deny that IVF
facilities have been very very busy all over. In Canada, fertility treatment
rate increased to 15.7% in 2011, up from 5.4% in 1984. It is a safe bet that 1
in 8 couples you know probably have visited fertility clinic[1].

Also, does this apply to China/India or just Western world? If no then I would
worry about all the tech that has gotten in to our lives like plastic
everywhere, RF radiation through wifi, chemical infested food and toys etc.

1\. [https://resolve.org/infertility-101/what-is-
infertility/fast...](https://resolve.org/infertility-101/what-is-
infertility/fast-facts/)

~~~
christinamltn
Those stats don't imply anything about fertility rates. IVF has gotten far
more accessible and affordable since the early 1980s. The 1 in 8 stat was
likely just as true in 1984, it just meant they'd been trying for a year
without success. Now that gets you a referral to a clinic (and you're more
likely to accept that referral).

------
theyinwhy
There is strong evidence fertility decreases if there is a lack of vitamin D,
which would correlate with the thesis that fertility decreases for human kind
in general (as we expose ourselves less and less to the sun):
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28667465](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28667465)

------
lukas099
Is it possible that sperm counts are lower simply because there is less
selective pressure for producing lots of sperm?

Less sperm competition and increased fertility due to medicine would both do
that.

~~~
ImaCake
There aren't really any good evolutionary explanations for the decrease in
sperm count. Changes in the distribution and frequency of any given
genotype/phenotype literally takes generations to occur, and would require
some kind of selective pressure (as you say, competition and medically induced
fertility are possibilities). This is happening too fast and too uniformly.

~~~
jondubois
>> would require some kind of selective pressure

Not selective pressure, but lack of it.

When you take away selective pressure for a specific trait, organisms become
weaker on average in respect to that trait; when a trait loses importance,
populations divert their resources to different traits.

~~~
Dylan16807
For a gene to decay without selective pressure takes a _very_ long time,
especially when your population is not on the edge of starvation.

~~~
londons_explore
A selective pressure going away is as strong as a selective pressure
appearing.

Eg. 100 years ago, 20% of children would die as infants. Imagine all of those
children died of a mutation which causes half the usual sperm count, together
with a lack of resistance to polio/cholora.

Now that polio/cholora don't exist, all those people survive, and within 3
generations, nearly everyone has at least a grandparent with that 'low sperm
count' mutation.

~~~
Dylan16807
> Eg. 100 years ago, 20% of children would die as infants. Imagine all of
> those children died of a mutation which causes half the usual sperm count,
> together with a lack of resistance to polio/cholora

That wouldn't be a steady state. A gene that powerfully negative, with no
upsides, would decrease in prevalence by a significant amount every
generation.

> Now that polio/cholora don't exist, all those people survive, and within 3
> generations, nearly everyone has at least a grandparent with that 'low sperm
> count' mutation.

Everyone has an ancestor with the gene. But they only have a 1/8, 1/16, 1/32
chance of inheriting it from that specific ancestor. Generation to generation,
the percentage of people with the gene will be almost identical. Just like eye
and hair color.

------
seibelj
Children of Men?
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Men](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Men)

~~~
DoreenMichele
There was an episode of Stargate where an alien race reduces human fertility
by 98%. They do some shenanigans with time travel to tell themselves to not
contact that world in order to prevent it.

May have auto-play audio:

[http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/2001_(episode)](http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/2001_\(episode\))

~~~
Izkata
Your link is for the second appearance of the Aschen, when SG-1 meets with a
different civilization they've already pacified. The episode with the time-
travel shenanigans is the first of the two episodes:
[https://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/2010_(episode)](https://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/2010_\(episode\))

------
300bps
_studies with sample collection only after 1995—and the slope was even
steeper. So that could not explain the decline we see after 1995.”_

That’s about the time high speed pornography became available en masse.
Coincidence?

~~~
zaroth
My initial thought when I read the “the problem is right in front of us”
interlude was, oh they’re gonna blame PornHub! Since masterbation decreases
sperm count.

But when they got into the other physiological symptoms, that definitely isn’t
gonna explain it.

------
martinpw
Worth pointing out this trend is only unambiguously evident in the Western
world, identified as U.S., Europe, Australia, and New Zealand.

Other parts of the world do not show a statistically significant trend,
although the article suggests these data are not good enough to draw strong
conclusions.

~~~
rbrcurtis
What's curious about that is if this is solely a first world problem, then it
should be easy to compare our sperm counts to that of men in 2nd/3rd world
countries. The lack of that data in this article is troubling.

------
agorabinary
Any other reliable sources on this beyond GQ?

~~~
alexandercrohde
There are actually well over 100 studies on this from different regions and
periods. Google scholar can help.

~~~
alexandercrohde
Why is this downvoted? Simply putting in "sperm count decline" into google
scholar gives over 42,000 papers.

Lay people need to understand that this is not just some off-the-cuff casual
theory, but a very-well-researched 30-year-trend.

------
bcaa7f3a8bbc
Better title: Why Sperm Counts Are Dropping For Men Today

~~~
qubax
Which has been posted about on HN numerous times already.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14855796](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14855796)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16245784](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16245784)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15061484](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15061484)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15109328](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15109328)

It's amazing that even gq is now spamming HN.

~~~
schoen
This submission was made by a 5-year HN user with 14000 karma. Although I
don't know if you've been more active with a different handle, which is
certainly very possible, the account whose submission you're complaining about
has been active 27 times as long as yours and has 91 times as much karma as
yours... suggesting a history of reasonably good-faith contribution to HN.

Edit: it's true that his submissions aren't primarily about IT topics, but
people continue to find them interesting.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=pmcpinto](https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=pmcpinto)

~~~
ggggtez
It doesn't matter how much karma someone has. A repost is a repost, and it's
ok to point it out.

~~~
schoen
I took this as somehow blaming _GQ_ itself. (I don't mind people pointing out
reposts.)

------
ktpsns
Figure from the article:
[https://media.gq.com/photos/5b71dc69cc91ae0c5f57efdc/master/...](https://media.gq.com/photos/5b71dc69cc91ae0c5f57efdc/master/w_800/mean-
sperm-count.jpg)

Oh wow. This suggested correlation is pulling your hair out. First, there are
two data points for the "men total sperm count" dataset. I can hardly imagine
there are no measurements bewtween 1970 and 2010. Analysis of this data: Sure,
you can draw a line. An exponential decrease is much more likely, thought.
This would look much less or much more dramatic. Never trust statistics you
haven't counterfeited on your own.

Obviously, the "global plastic production" follows an exponential. And
probably any other metric such as "global number of people" or "global number
of cars" would exhibit a similar curve. You can correlate everything if you
want...

------
konschubert
Okay, really naive question: Could it be that the measured sperm count per
ejaculation is getting lower because men are ejaculating more frequently?

Or is this being considered in these studies?

------
dudul
This article only mentions sperm count. However, as per what I recall from my
visit to an IVF clinic, this is only 1 of the 3 important factors. The
gamete's shape and motility are the other 2. The last one being the most
important if I recall correctly.

------
fallingfrog
Has anyone checked to see if it's happening to animals too?

~~~
Analemma_
It's happening to dogs as well, apparently:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14857588](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14857588)

------
alexchamberlain
This was a study that used data from circa 180 other studies; I wonder what
the purpose of the other studies were and whether there's any selection bias
here?

------
village-idiot
Admit it, you went and measured your AGD, didn't you?

------
EADGBE
If we’re reducing the count over time, do we know if the sperm are simply
becoming more effective to counter-act?

~~~
village-idiot
Probably depends on the time scale. It's typically very easy to disrupt an
existing system, and it takes a very long time for evolution to respond.

------
gniv
Makes me wonder: are there more girls being born than boys?

~~~
DoreenMichele
Probably not.

[https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2015/03/30/3963849...](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2015/03/30/396384911/why-are-more-baby-boys-born-than-girls)

------
amriksohata
No on can prove the specific reason, I'm sure any reason that is explored will
get push back from businesses who have interests in that area, for example if
it's because of sugar, mobile phones, pesticides or pollution, all those
industries will fund counter claims. It's sad but that's the capitalist world
we live in, the problem will get so bad even the owners of these businesses
will be affected but foolish enough to continue for the pursuit of greed and
profit, knowingly or unknowingly destroying the chance of future, healthy
offspring.

------
no_identd
...I'll just leave this here:

[https://molecularcytogenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10....](https://molecularcytogenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13039-016-0224-1)

Stindl, Reinhard - The paradox of longer sperm telomeres in older men’s
testes: a birth-cohort effect caused by transgenerational telomere erosion in
the female germline [2016]

Citations here:
[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=1431836715271366014...](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=14318367152713660147)

Which leads us, among other things, to the following papers:

[https://journals.lww.com/co-
obgyn/Abstract/2018/06000/Should...](https://journals.lww.com/co-
obgyn/Abstract/2018/06000/Should_we_consider_telomere_length_and_telomerase.11.aspx)

Balmori, Carlos; Varela, Elisa - Should we consider telomere length and
telomerase activity in male factor infertility? [2018]

[https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/05/276030](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/05/276030)

Delgado et al. [22 Authors in total!] - The contribution of parent-to-
offspring transmission of telomeres to the heritability of telomere length in
humans [2018]

And to this:

[http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/02/20/1707337115.long](http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/02/20/1707337115.long)

Xie et al. [28 authors in total!] - Epigenetic alterations in longevity
regulators, reduced life span, and exacerbated aging-related pathology in old
father offspring mice [2018]

Which itself has citations, here:
[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=1010309427616177024...](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=10103094276161770241)

Leading us, pardon the pun, to, among other things, this:

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0161813X1...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0161813X18301633)

Maloney et al. - Latent consequences of early-life lead (Pb) exposure and the
future: Addressing the Pb crisis [2018]

As the first handful articles I've linked here now show, we have a hell of a
lot more issues than just endocrine disruptors: evolution will mess with us,
come hell or high water!

PLUS endocrine disruptors already causes a lot of problems, as the OP article
outlines, AND as that last article I linked also shows us.

------
zanba38
What's some actionable advice about how to increase your T? If you google it
you just find snake oil bullshit.

~~~
techsin101
strength exercises... [https://mic.com/articles/61037/study-proves-that-
lumberjacks...](https://mic.com/articles/61037/study-proves-that-lumberjacks-
are-super-manly#.ULOrsAqDb)

------
zxcvvcxz
>“What you are seeing in a number of systems, other developmental systems, is
that the sex differences are shrinking,” Swan told me. Men are producing less
sperm. They're also becoming less male.

Is it possible that these phenomena relate to the seemingly explosive rise in
transgenderism? Particularly MtF, which is much more common than the reverse.
Perhaps for those with already low male:female hormone ratios, if they are
tipped further by these endocrine disruptors, especially during development,
they might really have a brain that feels more female.

~~~
amelius
Makes me wonder if there are any "endocrine disruptors" that work in the
opposite direction.

~~~
village-idiot
All human Zygotes start out as female, and a burst of androgens makes some
fetuses develop male sexual characteristics. If those androgens aren't
released, the child retains female sexual presentation, even if they have XY
chromosomes. As is commonly mentioned, this is why men have nipples even
though they're not functional for men.

According to my very weak understanding, it's easier to prevent that from
happening than it is to accidentally introduce enough xenoandrogens to cause a
XX fetus to develop male sexual characteristics.

------
jaimex2
How do they measure this? No one has taken my sample =\

------
trophycase
Lack of exercise, poor diet, extremely feminine culture, absolute taboo of
violence, endocrine disruptors.

~~~
thomasfedb
> extremely feminine culture

What's that meant to mean?

~~~
trophycase
Perhaps feminine isn't the right word, perhaps what I mean is a devaluation of
masculine traits. In my opinion we live in a time of extreme obedience to law,
taboo and shaming of physical violence (with instead an emphasis on social
shaming via television/media), and a general fear of social confrontation and
disagreement. Our focus instead is on acceptance of absolutely everyone and
everything.

~~~
yesenadam
You'd like to see _more_ physical violence in the world? Or that it be less
taboo, less shameful? Exactly which physical violence are you talking about?

~~~
thomasfedb
Words from my mouth.

~~~
trophycase
See my response.

~~~
thomasfedb
I'm not sure I feel like your response clarified anything.

When and where would you like to see more violence? I'd like to see less.

------
bassman9000
_But as it turns out, no surprise: men first. Second instance of no surprise:
We 're going to take the women down with us._

Why. Why this self hate. What have we done to deserve this incredible vicious
hatred?

