
Why do Chinese political leaders have engineering degrees? - eternalban
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Chinese-political-leaders-have-engineering-degrees-whereas-their-American-counterparts-have-law-degrees?share=1
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noname123
IMHO, STEM careers not sure about now, but before the mid-90's were considered
more prestigious in China than medicine and law.

Back then, lawyers never really had a spotlight in Chinese commerce or
politics given Chinese Community Party's one-party rule and state-owned
enterprise dominated economy; also in civilian realm, Chinese business
partnerships are governed by "Guanxi," your reputation and standing within
your personal network than the culture of litigation in Western world.

Also, hate to be blunt, medicine is not as much upheld in esteem (relatively)
in China due to the perceived less value of human life and socialized medicine
at the time: a country of 1.3 billion people roughly the same size of US with
a fraction of the GDP, marred by the Great Leap Forward, cultural revolution
and until recently one child policy. Chinese hospitals clinic's queues is more
like going to the DMV where you bring and keep your own medical chart and
queuing up, compare with the Western medicine's obsession for "personal well-
being," "resuscitate at all cost".

Individuals are not as considered as the State or the Collective. Now compare
the puny individual with fragile bodies and limited agency to the grand
gestures of the grand dams that conquer the Yangtze River or big bridges that
crisscrosses metropolises.

Children are taught at the early age that the reason for the Chinese "Century
of Humiliation" is Qing Dynasty's reluctance to reform and adopt Western
technologies; Chinese engineers that built railroads and scientists that built
nuclear bombs were hailed as heroes as much as say, civil rights leaders in US
social studies curriculum.

~~~
pm90
There were many reason's for the Century of Humiliation. The Qing dynasty did
attempt to reform on a big scale [0], but it was very much restricted in what
it could do by western meddling.

[0]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-
Strengthening_Movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-
Strengthening_Movement)

~~~
douche
The Qing dynasty, even at the best of times, was far more decentralized than
the Communists ever were. Coming in at the disintegration of the Ming, the
Manchus absorbed huge swatches of Ming defectors, rebels, and newly conquered
territory. By and large, they adopted the pre-existing scholar-official
system, and by and large the pre-existing scholar-officials, to run these
provinces. The provincial governors were not quite Persian satraps, nor the
warlords of the Nationalist era, but they had relatively wide latitude.
Moreover, there were parallel bureaucracies, with the Chinese civil
administrations, and the Eight Banners standing army cum garrison staffed by
Manchus, Mongols and other non-Han. Corruption was rife, and to some extent
expected - the level of training and education to pass the gate-keeping
imperial exams to enter the scholar class took years and could beggar families
or entire communities. Taken to the extreme, you see the case of Heshen, a
Manchu official who had embezzled the equivalent of a decade and a half of tax
revenue for the entire empire.

Regardless of western meddling, the Qing dynasty was subjected to the
deadliest and most destructive war of the 19th century, which nearly toppled
the government. And it was largely the third parallel bureaucracy that arose
around the two or three most successful leaders against the Taiping that led
the westernization push. In the organizations of Zeng Guofan and Li Hongzhang
you have the direct precursors of the local warlords who made such a mess of
the country for the first fifty years of the 20th century. Already, they
operated largely outside the government, building their local fiefdoms.

~~~
pm90
Interesting! I was always interested in why the Chinese Republican government
collapsed so quickly into the warlord era. It seems like the power structures
of that era were already in place by the time the emperor was thrown out, and
once Yuan Shikai was gone, they just made it official.

------
PaulHoule
Another good question is why is almost every American politician (and all of
the democrats) a lawyer?

You definitely see more diversity in Europe where you have Angela Merkel with
a physics PhD.

~~~
rayiner
The majority of Congress is not lawyers. That said, my theory is that because
the U.S. is a low-cohesion, heterogeneous society, we're uniquely structured
around the conflict-resolution process of litigation. The U.S. resolves
through lawsuits disputes in areas such as labor, environment, civil rights,
product safety, land use rights, social justice, and employment rights, which
are handled through the political process in other countries. Unsurprisingly,
people who have an interest in these issues, which are the bread-and-butter of
Democratic politics in particular, are likely to go get law degrees.

A really good example of this phenomenon is playing out right now with the
Apple/FBI case. Over in Europe, they're going to pass laws that govern what
companies must do to assist with law enforcement investigations. Here, it'll
play out in the courts first, and Congress might not even take action if
they're happy with the legal outcomes.

~~~
eigenvector
> Unsurprisingly, people who have an interest in these issues, which are the
> bread-and-butter of Democratic politics in particular, are likely to go get
> law degrees.

I'd argue the reverse. Many people have interests in these issues, but if they
wish to pursue careers in politics, their only option is to go through the
$100,000 law degree pipeline. Why would someone who wants to work on
environmental issues be any more likely to study law rather than wildlife
biology, except that the latter won't make you the social connections and
money you need to have any crack at a political career?

------
Animats
That was also true of the USSR.

Anatoly Dobrynin, the Soviet ambassador to the US for many years, writes in
his autobiography how he became a diplomat. One day, Stalin was annoyed at his
diplomats over something, and remarked that the USSR needed diplomats who were
New Soviet Men, like aircraft designers.

Shortly thereafter, Anatoly Dobrynin, aircraft designer, was taken by the KGB
from his drafting table at the Yakovlev Design Bureau and shipped to the
Higher Diplomatic Academy in Moscow. He rose from there to ambassador to the
US.

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chvid
I don't know about China.

But western societies have developed a system of professional politics where
politicians are groomed for politics early on.

That is why they often become professional politicians early on and have
degrees in a narrow set of fields and from a narrow set of schools.

~~~
jernfrost
Think that depends a lot on the particular society. My home country Norway
certainly "suffers" from the professional politicians, but they still have
quite varied backgrounds: teachers, agriculture degrees, economists, political
science, machine operator etc.

I'd say it depends a lot on to what degree a society is elitist or not. E.g.
France and Britain seem very elitist oriented societies where the elite is
groomed in elite schools. While a country like Norway is strongly anti-elite
and has no concept of elite schools.

Every society has their particular traits. E.g. in Germany it seems like
having a PhD in some science is almost a prerequisite for getting anywhere in
politics to the point where some politicians have felt forced to fake a PhD to
get anywhere.

~~~
digi_owl
> Think that depends a lot on the particular society. My home country Norway
> certainly "suffers" from the professional politicians, but they still have
> quite varied backgrounds: teachers, agriculture degrees, economists,
> political science, machine operator etc.

But after a year or more in office, they all seem to walk and talk the same
way anyways.

And i can't shake the feeling that the diversity is slipping.

One of the old boys of AP, and perhaps one of the last with a industrial
background to hold a government position, said that when he began he could
work a full day at the factory and then go to meetings in the afternoon. But
that nowadays you basically had to quit your other job to keep up, even on the
local level.

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ArkyBeagle
I've read enough Usenet for enough years to suspect that STEM may well be a
liability when it comes to "soft" subjects, the sort that politics operates
on. Just the realities of government finance and government debt seem to be
beyond many in our field(s), because it's a bizarro subject.

That China is run by nominally "engineers" could well be a significant problem
for them.

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sharetea
These aren't the smart engineering politicians with a 10 year view China has
foisted its fable onto the world. These are the corrupt paranoid politicians
who know they are one mass protest away from having all their families
disposed. These are fat and lazy billionnaires who have siphoned off local
schools, hospitals, people, environments, and is about to abscond with riches.
These are the people that see their debt-fueled economy collapsing, and know
there's no more workers to be paid in pennies to be exploited.

""In total, 106 members of China's National People's Congress and 97 members
of Chinese People’s Political Consultative Congress, are on Hurun's China Rich
List. Their combined wealth hits $463.8 billion"

[http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-politicians-are-
rich-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-politicians-are-rich-2015-3)

Kyle Bass: China’s $34 trillion banking sector set to collapse 30-40%

[https://www.trunews.com/kyle-bass-chinas-34-trillion-
banking...](https://www.trunews.com/kyle-bass-chinas-34-trillion-banking-
sector-set-to-collapse-30-40/)

~~~
moreorless
You sure love to bash on China. It seems like are your submissions/comments
are anti-China.

~~~
sharetea
i don't like evil government. do you?

"China 'covertly providing oil to North Korea' Seoul claims Beijing falsifying
its export statistics to keep Pyongyang's industry, military operational"

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/11...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/11230327/China-
covertly-providing-oil-to-North-Korea.html)

Missiles Deployed on Disputed South China Sea Artificial Island, Officials Say

[http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/18/world/asia/china-
missiles-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/18/world/asia/china-missiles-
south-china-sea.html?_r=0)

~~~
1stop
But what is your measure of evil?

US invaded Iraq twice for oil, and had deployed missiles to all sorts of non
sovereign land, that had upset is neighbours.

Literally a 1-1 comparison for both your examples.

If that is your measure for "evil government" please point out a "good"
government.

~~~
drdaeman
But... what if there's none?

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kelukelugames
Getting an engineering degree in China was the equivalent of graduating from
an Ivy. At least in the prestige department.

~~~
khc
Is that true? My impression is that most parents wanted kids to be doctors and
lawyers, until very recently at least.

~~~
kelukelugames
I'm talking about Chinese people in China during my parents' generation.

Are you thinking of Asian stereotypes in America?

~~~
byw
I'd say in America it's mostly just STEM or business/economics, depending on
your family background. Business for children of business owners, STEM for
everyone else. There's also a clear political divide along this line in
oversea Chinese demographics.

Lawyers, although well-paid on the higher-end, carry somewhat of a bad rep of
being predatory and unreliable income-wise across the spectrum.

------
em3rgent0rdr
most Asian leaders have engineering degrees.

The flip side of the question is: Why do Western leaders generally lack STEM
degrees?

Why should the US be ruled by lawyers?

~~~
Mikeb85
> Why do Western leaders generally lack STEM degrees?

Because STEM degrees don't give one any insight into governing people.

> Why should the US be ruled by lawyers?

Politicians make laws. Lawyers know the law. Seems like a good fit.

~~~
icebraining
The US National Science Foundation includes social sciences (anthropology,
economics, psychology and sociology) in the list of STEM disciplines.

~~~
Mikeb85
Really? Crazy. Here 'social sciences' are usually considered an art degree.

------
klue07
In China, engineering is the most prestigious major as opposed to lawyers or
doctors in the US. In highschool, if you aren't very smart, you are told to go
into liberal arts. If you did well in school, you almost always went into
STEM, even if that is not where your passion lies. So it's not hard to see why
there would be a disproportionate amount of Chinese leaders with engineering
degrees.

On a side note for those who are interested. Here's a list of political
figures who are from Tsinghua University (China's top engineering university):
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsinghua_clique](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsinghua_clique)

------
wrong_variable
There are very good reasons given but I would like to add a simpler model -
from the infamous book Germs, Guns and Steel.

In poorer countries, the biggest problem is related to physical disadvantages.

European and American Cities face physical disadvantages but nothing compared
to Beijing, Delhi or Cairo. The biggest cities in the anglo-euro sphere are
nothing compared to the mega cities in Asia.

Scaling the living standard of a typical western to the entire continent of
asia requires overcoming real limitations imposed by physics and the natural
world.

This is why engineering and STEM is so strongly focused in many asian
societies.

~~~
jernfrost
I am pretty sure Germs, Guns and Steel, never implied anything remotely like
that.

If you look at size as a main driver here, that does not match up with
reality. South Korea, Japan, Singapore etc, neither of these countries are
bigger than your typical mid sized to large european nation.

I think people are reading a bit too much into this. In the stage of
development many asians nations are today, western nations also had a similar
reverence for engineers.

What strikes me most when people from developing countries talk about unique
cultural traits of their country, is that it merely represent a development
stage. I can point to similar traits among earlier generations in my own
country.

~~~
pm90
Could you please provide references? Genuine question. I'm interested to know
if American or British society was as obsessed with engineering and medicine
at some point as we see today in India and China.

~~~
venomsnake
There was that period known as industrial revolution. A lot of the great
inventors were either born nobility or knighted. So Britain valued their best
engineering minds.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
Or, conversely, most of their 'best engineering minds' came from classes
already valued.

~~~
pm90
Probably because only they had both the education and the free time to pursue
these things.

------
jordache
also the more non-religious Chinese culture would typically lean towards other
personal qualities for selecting positions of power. Scientific prowness would
naturally be one of the criteria. So none of that "That man is great
Christian!" as some sort of qualifier.

~~~
icebraining
Well, I live in an European country with plenty of lawyers and other law-
related professionals as members of parliament, yet the religiousness of the
candidates hasn't been a topic for decades, at least.

