
Freelancer keeps degrading the coder experience - mmisu
In the last few months Freelancer changed their modus operandi by trying to screw their coders in more than way:<p>* They bumped up the price for the standard membership from about $25 to $50 without a serious reason. They simply take advantage of the fact that the coders can&#x27;t retaliate&#x2F;protest in any way.<p>* They hide the buyers history (a freelancer can see the history of a buyer only after he bids and the buyer sends him a message). Given the fact that you have a limited number of bids per type of membership this is a really nasty move.<p>* The entire site is a huge money making machine with no concern whatsoever about coder&#x27;s experience. All they care about is to make more money no matter how crappy the experience is for the coders. For e.g. they ask you money for cheating their own system (if you pay $2 your bid will be better placed than a bid of a coder with a better rating&#x2F;history).<p>* They silently tolerate spam projects where buyers ask basically for free work (or they give no information about what they actually need until you place your bid). The idea is that Freelancer will get their cut no matter how a project ends (they charge both the buyer and the coder some fees). They don&#x27;t actually care if a project is finished or not as long as they get their cut.<p>* Last but not least, they offer no financial protection for both buyers&#x2F;coders.
======
patio11
Freelancer does much, much worse things for your business _by dint of using
Freelancer_ than any of the problems you have written about above.

You're tolerating a 50%+++ discount to your easily achievable potential rate
_every day_. Next to that, $25 is nothing.

You're optimizing your business to churn out $X00 projects for clients who
are, out of the universe of consulting clients, pretty bad. Your projects are,
structurally, not going to leave you with any impressive accomplishments which
you could take to other potential clients to justify your newer, higher rates.
You're overwhelmingly going to be stuck doing the most boring work possible
with your skill set.

You're tolerating a higher than average amount of "patholgoical customers" in
your client pool -- people who have no business managing a software
development project, with unreasonable expectations, poor managerial skills,
and the ability to stiff you for virtually any reason.

You should start prospecting for clients yourself. You'll have a minor hit in
billing efficiency while learning how to do this, but then be able to start
selling days/weeks at a time of availability at _actual professional rates_
rather than competing with people charging $10 to $20 an hour. Turn some of
those clients into referrals and some into recurring engagements / retainers /
etc, and your business will be much, much more stable, more lucrative, and
less stressful.

~~~
true_religion
Where are you supposed to find clients if you're just starting out, and have
no reputation?

~~~
patio11
It's not like business owners will stop talking to you if they find out your
Klout score. Can you identify a business in your town which has previously
purchased software development services? If not, go to a meetup, ask the
people selling software development services who they have previously worked
for.

An alternative: to a first approximation, any business with both millions in
revenue and which pays for any professional services can also purchase
software development services. Learn to estimate the revenue of a business
from the outside ( _great_ life skill for consulting). One simple heuristic is
"White collar employee count times $200k." Can you identify a business in your
town which has 5+ white collar employees? Great.

Let's say you have a financial adviser firm in your neighborhood which has 8
white collar employees. Can you describe how a financial adviser makes money?
If this isn't obvious to you from a lifetime of reading the Wall Street
Journal, the answer is Googleable.

Find the guy at the firm who would have the authority to hire you. (At a firm
with 8 people, "owner" is a fairly strong bet. You can identify him pretty
easily, since he's plastered all over their website.) Talk to him. At a
financial adviser firm, since his primary job is going to be sales, talking to
him is _really easy_. You call them up and say "Hiya, I'm a software developer
living in town and would like to speak to Bob. I read about him on the
Internet and want to talk about financial advising." I predict a 98% success
rate at successfully speaking to Bob.

You then talk to Bob like two business owners who each can learn something
from the other. You can learn a lot about Bob about the financial advising
industry. Bob can learn a lot from you about e.g. wild and whacky things
computers can do these days, like email people. After you have learned from
Bob how his firm works, you say "That's great, but there exist ways to make
that even better with a bit of elbow grease. Let me outline how I'd get you
more rich clients, directly increasing your revenue. It gets technical but the
brief description is [pitch project here]. Interested in talking about this
further?"

~~~
gknoy

      You then talk to Bob like two business owners 
      who each can learn something from the other.
    

I realize this is largely my inexperience talking, but how does one do that?
How do I make that not feel like I'm wasting their time? How do I signal
(without losing their interest) that I'm (a) not a customer, and (b)
interested in understanding their business in a way that isn't meant to
compete with him?

This is probably something that comes with experience, but I fear like initial
forays would be flaming piles of failure.

~~~
neltnerb
I think you will be surprised how willing people are to talk to you about the
problems they have, if they think you might be able to help or offer advice.

Here are a few things that I've found work well:

1\. Call them up, don't email. But always start by asking if it's a good time
and offering to set up better time to call if they're busy. The call is
important because people ignore emails and since it's known to be "low cost"
to send them it indicates that they're probably being generally targeted
instead of being called specifically. But being polite and offering to call at
another time indicates that you respect their time.

2\. Give them a quick idea of who you are and why you're calling them
specifically. How did you find them? Why does what they do interest you? Tell
them that you're interested in learning more about what they do and what kinds
of frustrations they have with their technology. People like it when you are
interested in what they do.

3\. Instead of telling them what you want to do, ask them what they would like
to have someone do. People love to complain about their problems, and it's
good information for you to know. Knowing your potential client's problems
will make you more conversant when talking to future possible clients. It's
okay for you to not be able to address their problem, just take extensive
notes on anything they say, and instead of trying to solve their issue on the
phone or set up a contract right away, just ask questions. "Are there any
other things you find frustrating?" is a totally legitimate question, and has
given me usually much more useful information than specific stuff.

4\. If they don't seem to be interested, or don't feel they themselves have
interest in being involved, ask them if they have any ideas of who might be
more in need of the kind of thing you can offer, or if they know anyone else
who might be able to offer advice on what kind of services you could offer.

5\. Ask them if there are any questions you should have asked but didn't. "Is
there anything else that you think I should be asking about but didn't?" is a
totally normal and reasonable question.

After you call your first five possible clients, compile that information,
research the things they mentioned, and use that to refocus the way you
present what you might be able to help with.

~~~
yen223
For those who actually tried it, is cold-calling any effective? Because if
someone I don't know called me up and tried to sell me "solutions", I wouldn't
bother giving him the time of day.

Do other people respond differently?

~~~
thenomad
It very much depends - for everyone, I suspect including you, although I could
be wrong - on what solution the caller is offering.

There are a truly vast number of "solutions" which people might try to offer
me that I'm just not interested in.

However, if someone was to call up and offer me a production-grade finger
motion capture solution for under $1000, they'd definitely have my attention.
Ditto a procedural solution for creating interiors in a fantasy or medieval
setting for use with path tracing renderers. And I could reel off another
half-dozen ideas.

That's why Patio11's "talk to them, find out what their problems are" approach
is so darn effective - it narrows down to the solutions that will actually
capture your interest, because they're solutions to problems you actually
have.

(Re finger capture - Yes, I'm aware of the Leap Motion and Control VR. Both
are interesting, Control VR slightly more so, but neither are quite
production-grade yet.)

------
csomar
I had a bad experience with Freelancer a few years ago. I deposited $250 for a
small freelance work. As I found no interesting or potential candidates, I
cancelled the project.

They asked me for my ID, and other details so they can refund the money. It
took months of back and forth with their support team and then they decided
that they are going to hold this indefinitely as unresolved.

Never got my money back. They are indeed a SCAM.

~~~
toxican
Should've done a chargeback. You tried to things the right way through them
first, they essentially refused by not getting it done, so you're entitled to
ask your card provider to get it back for you.

~~~
mreiland
So many people are not aware of this option. I've done it 2-3 times in my
life, generally because a company thinks they're going to jerk me around. One
was an ACH that came from nowhere (still no idea how that happened, and the
bank wasn't much help).

------
gexla
The first simple answer here is to use a different platform. At one time that
meant you could use Odesk and Elance as well, but now they are operating under
the same umbrella. There are a lot of other platforms which don't have the
same recognition, look around.

The second simple answer is that you don't have to use these platforms at all.
Ultimately, anything which places you in a commodity / human cloud type of
market is something you should avoid. If you can't avoid it now, then work
hard to get away from it. Don't get too reliant on these sites. Keep trying
new things to create new opportunities.

Aside from that, I'm not sure how much you really need of the features that
Freelancer and the alternatives add. Outside the platform, you don't get
things like buyer history or financial protection. Whatever fees Freelancer
can charge is probably low considering they are providing leads which could
turn out to be valuable over the lifetime of your relationship with the
client.

You shouldn't need to rely on buyer history and filters against "spam"
projects. You should be able to pick this up from the interactions you have
with the client. Is the description a one paragraph mess full of misspellings?
Does the description look like it was written by a professional? Does the
listing really look like it has potential or are you just being overly
optimistic?

Are you looking in an area which is full of trash? Are there other, more niche
areas which have a better ratio of high quality postings to trash?

You need to be trying lots of things. You need to be spending time every day
networking and marketing. There are lots of people here who have said these
things far better than I could. Look through past HN posts on freelancing to
pick up tips. This site is a gold mine of information.

ETA: For buyer protection, it's best to get paid as you go. Get a payment up-
front. Get payments weekly. Make sure that at any given time, if the client
flakes out, you aren't out much money.

Freelancing is a business. Like any business, there is a steep learning curve.
There is a ton to learn and a lot of mistakes to be made. The effort is so
large, that for many freelancers it doesn't even make sense to be doing this.

Spend a substantial amount of time researching info from others so that you
don't have to make as many mistakes. Even then, you are going to make a lot of
mistakes and you will need to try a lot of things to find out what works for
you. All the issues you mentioned here are part of that. You just have to keep
banging away and trying different approaches to find something which works.

------
Spoom
Check [http://www.guru.com/](http://www.guru.com/) , they take a percentage
(10% for free, 5% with a membership), they show full feedback and payout
histories, have a decent escrow system, and they only take a cut when you get
paid.

~~~
notastartup
equally BAD as freelancer.com and any other such sites. The inherent flaw is
two folds: newphew-makes-websites crowd and $1-equals-$100--in-my-country.

The escrow system doesn't protect the coder at all, it's meant to protect the
person paying the commission.

In order to apply to more projects you have to buy premium membership! You
have to pay to work for peanuts!

~~~
Spoom
I disagree. There are a lot of projects on there that have unrealistic
expectations, but one tends to ignore those projects. It's a side effect of
allowing employers to post for free. There certainly are projects that have
employers who are willing to pay a reasonable amount for a quality project;
they're unfortunately not the majority, so a lot of a freelancer's time goes
into picking and choosing where to bid. Such is life.

The escrow system has protected me more than once. It benefits both sides of
the equation. I even got help from them (on a one-time basis) when an employer
went radio silent after I submitted a non-escrow invoice.

By the way, if it takes you more than the 10 free bids to land a single
project, you may not be putting enough effort into your proposals, or you may
be bidding on toxic projects.

------
dageshi
Just my 2cents, but I suspect the reason they front load so many charges is
that a lot of people both employers/freelancers use freelancer for the initial
connection and then move to paypal or similar for ongoing work.

Freelancer lets you establish trust between parties so to speak and then after
that there isn't that much of an incentive to carry on using it if you're
dealing with the same person.

~~~
mmisu
Actually, most buyers are not interested to pay you directly (Paypal or not)
because they feel _safer_ on Freelancer.

Also, when a buyer asks you to go on Skype to discuss his project most of the
time he will try to scam you into giving your work without being paid.

~~~
dageshi
I talk as someone who's been there and done it. Perhaps I'm just picky with
who I work for, but typically I do the initial job and then move to paypal,
I've not had anyone not pay me yet for my work.

------
mattbarrie
Hello mmisu

Freelancer CEO here. I thought I'd address some of the issues you brought up.

We did increase the membership plan to $50/mo from $29/mo simply because the
volume of projects have skyrocketed and as a result the volume of jobs
performed by standard members had likewise increased. The $50/mo standard
membership give a 50% discount on commissions to 5% from 10%, so there is
tremendous value there. We have lots of users earning six figures (up to
almost $1m per annum), so these memberships are quite reasonably priced for
the benefits.

We removed the buyers name but not the feedback. We did that after an
overwhelming number of requests from employers to take it off. The problem has
been that freelancers have been spamming and harassing employers by guessing
their contact details (e.g. trying similar skype names).

Of course we care about the coder's experience and we actively solicit ways to
improve the site from our users. Your comment of "if you pay $2 your bid will
be better placed than a bid of a coder with a better rating/history" is
exactly how Google and Facebook works in terms of a small number of paid
listings above organic results. We order freelancers from the best to the
worst feedback in the organic results in the bid list. We have three slots
available for paid sponsored bids above this. This gives people an opportunity
who may be new but really want to stand out in the bid list a chance to break
in to the market. We think this is a very fair way of doing things.

We don't tolerate spam projects for free work, how would that make sense? Our
primary business model is to charge a commission for introductions- after both
parties have talked, discussed the project details, pricing and a prepayment
(milestone payment) has been made, not before.

We do offer financing protection for buyers and sellers through our milestone
payment system, dispute resolution and arbitration systems. Your comment that
we offer "no financial protection" is incorrect.

Regards Matt

------
80
Lets not limit these to coders -- plenty of designers, writers, and others in
industries that are seemingly far harder to survive in than this one rely on
this site (and similar) too.

~~~
mmisu
True, I've seen a few writer jobs (projects) where the buyers expect to pay as
low as $2 per article ... Looks worse than the coders situation were, if you
have a good reputation, you can at least be paid a decent wage.

------
factorialboy
Stop using it.

~~~
mmisu
Your advice, while logical, has a small problem. A coder usually has a
history/reputation on this kind of sites. Once you stop using it you start
basically from zero. The reputation is not transferable to similar websites.

~~~
hluska
Tying your entire professional reputation to a single website is an
unbelievably bad idea. Not only does it let companies get away with what
Freelance et al are doing, but it keeps you making artificially low rates.
Contribute to open source, network in your community and online, and do pro
bono work for charities. If you're good, your reputation will rise and your
business will not have a single point of failure.

~~~
patio11
_If you 're good, your reputation will rise_

Importantly: it is both not true that your reputation will necessarily be
improved by working for charities/contributing to OSS, and not necessary that
one has "a reputation" to successfully get consulting gigs.

To get a consulting gig, you need to a) identify a person who has the
authority to say yes to a consulting gig, b) convince them to say yes. _Even
if you have a reputation_ , you don't get to skip these steps. Reputation as
being among the top in the field will get you more inbound leads, but you'll
still have to sift down to people who can actually say yes to gigs, and then
sell them.

How do you think your average accountant sells accounting services? By having
a reputation as being one of the best accountants available for hire? No. They
meet with business owners, winnow down to the ones who have money and problems
with it, and then say that they'll trade solutions to problems for money.

------
tomorgan
OK... so go make a better Freelancer. We're uniquely gifted in that if we
don't like or agree with something, we can go and do different.

~~~
mmisu
There are similar (some of them better) alternatives, the problem is that once
you have a good history/reputation on one of these sites you can't transfer
this to another one. You start from zero.

~~~
serf
any suggestions as to which are better?

~~~
mmisu
vWorker (former Rent a Coder) was a lot better.

As of today, oDesk looks better, but I don't have a lot of experience with
them.

~~~
yen223
I kinda dig oDesk. I got many decent clients off it. I was shooting for small,
very short term projects - the kind that can be done within a day - so YMMV.

This very site's monthly freelancer thread is also worth checking out. I got a
few decent leads out of it.

------
stuaxo
This needs disrupting, in the way that StackOverflow disrupted
expertsexchange.

------
speedinglunatic
You can try out the software development side of TopCoder [1] which can be
thought of as competitive freelancing.

[1] [http://www.topcoder.com/](http://www.topcoder.com/)

------
samaybhavsar
How about creating a system which is fair for both clients as well as
freelancers? May be one of us here can come up with a website which is better
then freelancer and other such alternatives. Few things which I am not happy
with these kind of sites are they are way too complex. When I joined
freelancer (formerly know as getafreelancer) it was very simple to use and had
only reviews and ratings. Things were simple yet worked well.

------
sunl
Exactly great! Labour service or intellectual service inherently can not be
bid, it will lead the price to much lower than the value, finally the market
is fulfilled with poor service. Even if you as a coder really want to provide
good services, but the market will hit you to the reality. So, it definitely
is a very bad business model, nobody can get value added from the market.

------
lifty
I would give Toptal a try. It seems like they are trying to establish a solid
relationship between companies and freelancers and they care about both sides.
They also make sure to properly screen all applicants before they allow them
on the platform, which includes a Skype interview and a not so easy
programming test.

*not affiliated with them in any way

~~~
davedx
Toptal is US only, right?

~~~
gog
No, I know there are quote a few Croatian coders that work for them.

~~~
msantos
You stand correct. From toptal FAQ[1]:

 _Where are your developers located?

While we don’t have any geographic preference, most of our engineers are
physically located in North/Central/South America and Europe._

1\.
[http://www.toptal.com/faq#where_are_your_developers_located](http://www.toptal.com/faq#where_are_your_developers_located)

------
GrinningFool
The easiest way to render these problems irrelevant to you is to not support
the product, either for providing work or buying it.

Freelancer and sites like it are is designed to provide the lowest common
denominator in skills at the lowest possible price. It's a rat-race to feed on
one's own body to prevent starving to death.

------
nicholassmith
No doubt Freelancer is pretty sucky, but: "The entire site is a huge money
making machine", that's kind of the point. It's there to make money for
Freelancer.

------
kf5jak
Not to mention the constant flow of emails they send you everyday. I had to
add a rule just to keep them from taking over my inbox! Some may consider that
spam!

------
zeet2020
freelancer are ruling the domain, because they had early days of advantage, i
think all the freelancers should dump that moronic sites and move on to
something betters. odesk or elance or some other.

------
notastartup
freelancer essentially caters to people who say "my nephew makes websites for
free, why can't you?"

freelancer is full of people who can afford to work for far less than what is
considered minimum wage in North America and Western Europe.

freelancer cares only about people who give them projects so they can take a
cut. charging people to work was not enough.

it's time someone came up with a new freelance site. \- make it only
accessible in North America and Western Europe. (the commodity prices work in
other parts of hte world but not where the basic living costs are far higher)
\- Guaranteed minimum hourly wage. \- rigorously filter projects being posted
(no more build me an Android app for $5, "my newphew can do it bro why not
you?") \- No bidding or fixed priced contracts. Hourly rate projects only.

~~~
homhomhom
>make it only accessible in North America and Western Europe

What for? Sure I understand that it is good for coders in North America and
Western Europe because it protects them from the competition, but why should
the consumers care? Although there is a negative stereotype about South Asian
coders, I don't see a reason why a coder from outside of the developed word
should be inherently low-skilled. My impression is that the main body of
coders from South America and Eastern Europe, at least those who can speak
English, are just as good as the main body of North American or Western
European coders. Then there are a lot of really good people from South Asia,
it's unfair and senseless to exclude them from this market. I am pretty sure
any sane person would have problems with this kind of racial profiling even if
there was no other way to establish whether or not given person is fit for the
industry, which is not even the case.

Well, exclude regional profiling and basically you have invented toptal.

