

All the things task apps aren't getting right vs. paper - michaeldhopkins
http://michaeldhopkins.posterous.com/what-digital-task-apps-are-lacking

======
schrototo
Apart from those "psycho-tactile" arguments, the biggest problems of those GTD
apps is their ridiculous overhead. Projects, sub-projects, sub-sub-projects,
tags, folders, due dates, scheduling, etc. I'm sure many find those things
useful, otherwise there wouldn't be such a market for these apps, but I
inevitably get lost in all the organizing.

The only GTD app I've ever found useful is TaskPaper [1], and that's because
it pretty much "just" a piece of paper, taking just enough advantage of the
possiblities of software to make it truly powerful.

[1] <http://www.hogbaysoftware.com/products/taskpaper>

~~~
stravid
Why are these simple apps native although they would perfectly work as a web
app. I don't want to download something to test it. And I don't want to sign
up, regardless of how simple the sign up process is, we have the power to
build things were you can get started right away.

Just use Local Storage to get the user started right away. When he decides to
sign up you can copy the local data to the server side storage.

~~~
cyen
Having to download a native app and having to create an account are two
entirely separate matters.

And FTR, part of the advantage of native apps is that they'll never be
relegated to "just another browser tab" or lost in a sea of favicons. When I'm
going to invest time in a workflow / application / product, I almost always
prefer the native app to web app for this particular reason.

~~~
stravid
_Having to download a native app and having to create an account are two
entirely separate matters._

Yes they are two seperate matters. But they still have a problem in common:
They introduce barriers you have to overcome until you can use / test the app.
I guess an app without such a barrier is doing a lot better.

 _And FTR, part of the advantage of native apps is that they'll never be
relegated to "just another browser tab" or lost in a sea of favicons. When I'm
going to invest time in a workflow / application / product, I almost always
prefer the native app to web app for this particular reason._

Valid point, this is one of the downsides when you focus on non-native apps.
It will be interesting to see if this changes when web apps get more traction.
If they ever do.

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sskates
I'm surprised the fact that it always works wasn't mentioned.

Paper is not dependent on:

-Having an internet connection

-Being booted into your OS

-Not in a full screen application

-Having enough battery

-Amazon's servers being up

-The code breaking in some weird corner case

-The company that's running the site declaring bankruptcy and packing up

While none of these things are especially high probability events, the fact
such apps are dependent on so much infrastructure adds up.

~~~
BasDirks
Paper is dependant on:

    
    
      - Having paper near your computer.
      - Having a pen that works,
      - or a pencil ... 
      - of which the point doesn't break off.
      - etc.
    

I use taskwarrior. It's CL and kicks ass. <http://taskwarrior.org>

~~~
TeMPOraL
You can make yourself a HipsterPDA. Or just have a plain notepad. Having that
with yourself is also beneficial for capturing ideas. The only thing that
beats paper here, for me, is a one-or-two-clicks voice note recorder in your
phone.

Or if you go everywhere with a backpack, you can carry a thin paper binder
with your task list with you. I've once used to do both binder and HipsterPDA
at the same time.

//EDIT

> I use taskwarrior. It's CL and kicks ass. <http://taskwarrior.org>

I thought by 'CL' you mean 'Common Lisp' and went straight to downloading the
application source. It's not Lisp, it's 'Command Line' :(. Anyway, the app
looks really nice.

~~~
ericmoritz
Command Line = CLI, Common Lisp = CL. I was wondering why being written in
Common Lisp made it good.

~~~
TeMPOraL
For me it was more a matter of personal curiosity, since you don't really see
much Lisp applications around.

------
ZoFreX
For me it's to do with spatial organisation. If I'm working on something I
normally have a large sheet of paper with all my tiny notes, and I know once
I've written something down where it is - so I know that I scribbled down the
background color over here, and the dimensions for that div over there...

The lack of any rigidity or standard form for input is also liberating. I can
scribble down copy, lists, diagrams, flow charts, all with a single intuitive
interface. Name an app that can claim that!

~~~
Raphael
I can't stand the rigidity on paper. Need my rearranging.

~~~
ZoFreX
That's one thing I do miss, although using a bigger piece of paper makes the
need to rearrange less frequent. I generally make notes like this only for
transitory stuff, if I am sticking with paper notes for a big system then
different bits will be on different pieces of paper, which allows easy
rearranging.

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jorangreef
Task apps impose unnecessary structure and interface on the tasks themselves,
even to the point of classifying them as tasks. The moment something calls
itself a "Task App" it's lost against TextEdit, which is useful for
tasks/ideas/lists. So a good task app would not be a dedicated task app, but
rather a free-form plain-text interface and these already exist.

~~~
dgunn
I agree. I don't understand how so many apps can be springing up with the same
flaws. They all seem to classify themselves as a tool specifically for the
listing of things a person needs to do. To me, this would be similar to buying
paper that is only to be used for to-do lists. While I”m sure that type of
paper exists, it doesn't beat good ole' fashioned white paper for me. Also -
an interesting note - I find myself constantly sending myself emails with
reminders, links, ideas, etc. And I use gmail which has a built-in task-
listing app. So apparently I find the gmail task list to be such a pain that
I'm willing to misuse my email service just to avoid it. I think it's time to
look at this problem from a new angle. If I am to adopt a new list-making
technology, I need to be making lists before I ever realized I had started.
Maybe gmail could detect when I send emails to myself and start a list for me
and automatically archive the message. Just a thought. Maybe in the right
direction?

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andreaja
I've recently ditched paper in favor of org-mode. It took about 3 months of
using org-mode before I was comfortable enough to consider using it for my
task items. Even then I needed to wait until org-mode was more embedded in my
daily workflow than going through my stack of paper notes.

I think part of the problem with other task apps is that they try to be really
good at one thing; organizing tasks. The problem with this is that you want to
spend as little time as possible organizing tasks, which means the apps
marginalize themselves by nature. You don't get enough time to learn how to
use them, you forget to check in, you keep stuff in your head, etc.

For me, org-mode worked because I spend a lot of time organizing things other
than tasks in it. But if I wasn't already familiar with it, I'd be spending
too much time trying to figure out how to use it and I'd probably forget to
check it.

The problem generalizes to this: organizing tasks is not a generic problem.
The problem is highly informed by your life. Paper works because you can do
whatever you want with it. It only looks like people using paper are using the
same system. They're probably not.

------
cyen
The #1 reason I still use post-its on my laptop and monitor (and... sometimes
physically on my phone, in extreme cases): there's a real-world reminder that
sticks around when you're powered off, disconnected, etc.

They're brightly colored, often aren't stuck on at right angles, and frankly
refuse to be ignored. They're just the right amount of annoying, and I'll be
interested to see how digital GTD applications manage to toe that line.

------
felipe
After years of frustration with task apps, I tried to migrate my system to pen
and paper and... back to a task app in 2 days! The biggest pluses of an app
(as opposed to paper) are quick text search and copy & paste, especially for
URLs. After this experience I realized how much I depend on URLs for my daily
activities: For example, to reference GMail emails, follow-ups, search
results, things to read, etc... Maybe pen & paper is perfectly fine for most
professions, but for techies unfortunately we are stuck with (bad) task apps
for now.

Side-note: I have used so many task apps that I am embarrassed to list them
here, and right now I am settled with Toodledo for the main task db and Tomboy
for daily tasks and general notes. I am not totally happy with it, but at
least it does not get on my way. My "system" is a combination of GTD and
Covey's 7-habits that I use for almost a decade.

~~~
wladimir
The ability to copy/paste from/to emails, source code, and documents does keep
me using task apps instead of paper.

Also, I find it very hard to keep large amounts of paper organized in a useful
way over longer times, and you need to carry it around. When you keep it
online, you can access it from everywhere.

Search function is very useful and more efficient than rooting through stacks
of old paper. If you have a lot of notes, you'll always lose exactly that
sheet of paper that was most important.

Good old paper does have some advantages, but it doesn't cut it for me
anymore.

------
richardw
Many of the GTD guys do use paper, for the same reasons. I sell a GTD app [1]
but used paper (moleskine booklet) when I was at b school and working a full
day and also writing Tudumo when I had spare minutes. Paper is easier than a
phone, tangible, makes you think about what you're putting down. The GTD guys
call this your 'ubiquitous capture' device - something that's with you always,
not back in the office, so when you think of something you need to do, it's
right there. I have an iPhone with various todo apps, but still keep the
moleskine in my notebook bag.

[1] <http://www.tudumo.com>

~~~
steviesteveo
Of course, other brands of notebook will also work.

~~~
richardw
Totally. In fact despite my using the name (which GTD'ers would recognise), I
don't get the brand aspect of it at all. I bought it just to see why the
paper-users fawned over it, and I've found a 20c ring-bound notebook worked
better since I could easily tear pages out.

------
Pfiffer
> _4\. Writing on paper aids with memory retention._

This, definitely. Nothing helps retain information better than writing it
down.

------
guynamedloren
I think the biggest problem with task apps are that they are overly complex
given their sole purpose is such a simple action. I decided to tackle this
problem myself, and here's what I ended up with: <http://letspocket.com> \-
not perfect by any means, but I use it every day and love it.

------
hrq
Handwriting a to do list is also way faster since you don't have to worry
about app switching, typos getting corrected to the wrong word, and random
occasional slowdowns that always seem to happen right when I really need my
phone to work. Also it's hard to make a to do list on your phone while you're
talking on the phone - yes there are headphones but then you have to untangle
those, plug them in etc, even if you just need them for a minute (another
ongoing issue!).

------
mike_esspe
_> 2\. Task-keepers using pen and paper are not adding a new system to their
workflow since they already need to use pen and paper for something_

Am i the only one, who doesn't have a paper and pen at all? The only pen i
own, is a small one from Victorinox swiss card
([http://www.swissarmy.com/MultiTools/Pages/Product.aspx?categ...](http://www.swissarmy.com/MultiTools/Pages/Product.aspx?category=swisscard&product=53927&))

------
p4bl0
This is exactly why I think that technologies like SmartPen[1] are likely to
really become a huge success: it combines the best of both world. There is
also the LogiPen[2] but it seems a bit less awesome.

[1] <http://www.livescribe.com/smartpen/echo/>

[2] <http://www.logipen.com/>

~~~
stewbrew
So why haven't these technologies been a success for the past 5 years?

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Flenser
These seem to be contradictory:

 _5\. ... One knows a handwritten task takes a few moments to write, so one
considers whether it should be done immediately more readily. Also,
handwriting a task gives one time to decide to stop writing it down and do
it/forget it. Task apps accept tasks as quickly as people type, so users might
enter too many trivial tasks that should be completed immediately or dropped,
and there is hardly any time to reconsider before the task is completely
entered._

 _8\. Assuming the task-keeper has good handwriting, the basics of an action
item can be jotted down more quickly than entered in a computer or mobile
device, to be revised later._

Author doesn't seem to be able to decide which is faster.

~~~
michaeldhopkins
It is contradictory as written. I meant that paper is slower for writing the
full task and faster for writing a brief word or symbol to jog the memory
later. This depends on one's typing speed as well as one's ability to decipher
cryptic notes, of course...

------
runjake
For collecting (which I later enter into my tasks software or Evernote) I end
up using cheapo index cards from the office stockroom, and I have a mini-pen
on my key ring.

The main ding against using paper for me is that I'm seriously out of practice
when it comes to handwriting. My writing is often illegible even to me and my
hand cramps up quickly after only a few lines of sustained writing.

I can "follow along" much more easily at a keyboard. The big problem with
going all digital though is that even whipping out the iPad and jotting
something down is "too much" time, in that I often say "screw it, I'll just
try to remember it".

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hessenwolf
I know I am not the only one who just uses the memo application on android.

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DominikGuzei
Most calendar and todo apps display time in complicated ways requiring the
user to click through useless dialogs and screens.

If you want an intuitive task app that doesn't require you to register and
feels like simple paper try: <http://fourtimesdaily.com>

it saves your tasks just on your computer (LocalStorage)

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alexbosworth
Self promotion, but try our App <http://bit.ly/todoApp> \- it's a dead simple
way to keep track of tasks.

Here is a boingboing article on it <http://boingboing.net/2011/03/08/of-the-
many-many-fac.html>

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davidw
<http://73primenumbers.com> is getting some real traction, what with people
going to bat for them like that.

------
omarq
for me my handwriting is so bad to the level that i can't read it some times
so i have to use todo apps

