
No Justification for Spanish Internet Censorship During Catalonian Referendum - panarky
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/10/no-justification-spanish-internet-censorship-during-catalonian-referendum
======
panarky
_Government censorship of the Internet is prohibited by Article 19 of the
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and by Article 10 of the European
Convention on Human Rights, both of which guarantee everyone 's right to
receive and impart information and ideas regardless of frontiers.

The Spanish government's censorship of online speech during the Catalonian
referendum period is so wildly disproportionate and overbroad, that its
violation of these instruments seems almost beyond dispute._

~~~
craftyguy
It'll be interesting to see if the EU enforces this, or if they look the other
way.

~~~
gcristofol
They looked away when the Spanish police was using batons and tear gas on
Catalan citizens, so I very much doubt they would move a finger for Internet
censorship; Shame on them.

~~~
Pirolita
The Spanish police didn't use tear gas, stop spreading lies.

~~~
smhenderson
Not lies and trivial to find news stating the truth -
[http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/01/europe/catalonia-spain-
indepen...](http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/01/europe/catalonia-spain-independence-
referendum-vote/index.html)

~~~
gcristofol
Any legit international source of news would give an idea of the magnitude of
the issue. Sadly Spanish news outlets are in the hands or PP government big
time.

------
alexandercrohde
Perhaps somebody can explain the situation to me a little better. As far as I
understand the situation, in any democracy you have the right to assemble and
to vote for anything you want (though of course if you actually ACT on
something against the law, well that's the definition of illegal).

I know this is a very prickly topic, but is there something I'm missing out on
here? As I understand it there has been a Texas secession party in the US, and
though it's not popular it's treated as protected political speech (of course
when the South did try to secede they were stopped by force of arms).

~~~
KGIII
It wouldn't fly in the US. The government can't censor lawful speech, at least
not legally.

As for the voting? That's a bit more tricky. They are voting to commit an
illegal act. While not morally similar, this would be legally similar to
voting to allow women to be murdered for not obeying their husband.

Namely, they are voting to approve an act that is clearly illegal according to
their constitution. I am not sure they'd be allowed to put that sort of thing
on an officially sanctioned ballot, in the US. However, they could certainly
hold a mock election, unaffiliated with the government, and it would only be
of value for the optics.

I'm just pretty sure it couldn't be officially sanctioned.

This assumes the pundits are correct and that this is clearly illegal in their
constitution. I haven't actually read their constitution and am trusting their
information and interpretation.

In the US it's a bit stickier. While we've disallowed secession before, I
don't think the constitution expressly forbids it. So, I couldn't quite come
up with a similar example to match the US. In fact, I think we may have even
agreed that Texas can seceede but it needs to be voted on with the same
numbers as they would need to amend the constitution. I think... Don't quote
me on that.

~~~
6t6t6t6
> As for the voting? That's a bit more tricky. They are voting to commit an
> illegal act

Referendums are, by definition, the tool to change the law. In this case, to
make legal something what was previously illegal.

Other than that, it makes sense that the Spanish law does not allow the
Independency of a territory. I assume that the British law did not allow the
Independence of the US neither.

~~~
KGIII
Yes, but they aren't proposing people do illegal things. The referendum wasn't
that they change the law, the referendum was that the secede regardless of the
law.

I imagine that they'd have had different results if the referendum were about
changing the law, but that's not what this was. This was specifically to
violate the law.

~~~
6t6t6t6
Is there any country where secession is legal?

~~~
pvaldes
There are good reasons for some things being and remaining almost universally
seen as illegal. Can't think of a single reason to legalize treason, rape,
pederasty, murder or canibalism for example.

Laws are intended to preserve convivence in society and secession is like a
bomb put in the middle of the lifes, properties and projects of millions of
people (Not necessarily for better. We have dozens of examples of how things
can turn hairy easily for the population).

The argument can never be: must be allowed because currently is illegal, thus
we must be lacking some good freedom here.

~~~
6t6t6t6
Wow.... You just put Independence next to treason, rape, pederasty, murder or
canibalism.

That's a solid argument.

~~~
pvaldes
It seems that for some reasons secession, sedicion and treason are close
concepts in the common law of many countries. On the other hand, let's not
pretend to assert that nobody was ever wounded, raped or murdered in an
independence war, please.

The question is that in our democracy some themes are deemed illegal, and any
web promoting them can be closed anytime and everytime, because this is how
our laws work.

Spain has the fortune of being a melting pot of races and cultures in Europe.
By our situation and history we have strong natural bonds with America, Europe
and Africa. We have also suffered civil wars and dictatures and hate speech is
seen as an specially disgusting thing by most spaniards. We know how this
always end.

So, could be seen as "unjustifiable censorship" to close a web hypothetically
hosting declarations like that?

 _The Andalusian has been hungry for hundreds of years and lives in a state of
ignorance and cultural, spiritual and mental misery_. (Jordi Pujol, ex-
president of Catalonia and founder of the party currently in power, under a
new name)

I have an clear opinion about that (this disgusting thing would be better
closed for good ASAP), but let the judges clear if those webs were promoting
hate speech and harassment towards more than half of the Catalonian people
(not to mention the rest of spaniards), or not.

------
pvaldes
> Perhaps somebody can explain the situation to me a little better

Sorry by the extension, but this can't be explained in just a few words. Ill
try to break it in several parts.

Is just a scam. The situation is that a theater, a farcical referendum without
any single guarantee of fair play was created in the name of a peculiar kind
of understanding democracy, and for some purposes that we'll see later.

Lets talk about this "referendum". Resuming:

Neither a minimum of participation percentage to validate the results ("if
there was only a single vote and this vote were a Yes, I would declare the
secession of the territory in the very next day"),

nor neutral observers

An independentist politician using their own home as electoral point of
votation

Judges explaining for months to > 800 mayors, government officials and
politicians that this is illegal, why, and what will be the consequences if
they cooperate in breaking the law. Some of this same people saying that they
will not recognise this jury, because the order cames from an invasor country,
fascist party, franco resurrected, whatever.

Independentist people apparently being asked to put a few "NO to independence"
votes in the urns, for faking a participation of constitutionalist people, and
gain legitimity.

Fake posters of constitutionalist parties appearing in the walls, "asking for
vote", for the same reason. Dismissed as fake for the same organisations and
politicians represented on it.

Fake document from "the spanish army" saying "that tanks are coming to
Catalonia" with the purpose to spread fear and hate and galvanize people
feelings. Dismissed as fake by the army.

People coming from home carrying urns opaque that stumble and fall in the
street releasing lots of pre-loaded ballots

People stuffing ballots in a box in the street

People taking selfies and having fun whereas being allowed to vote four times
in four different places

Photographs of little girls voting (yes, the vote would probably be from one
of their parents, but lets remember that is expressely forbiden by law than
other than the voter or the president of the electoral table, be allowed to
enter the vote)

Printing like 14 millions of ballots for a population of around 5 millions of
people able to vote (perhaps to substitute one set of votes by other when
people go home?)

Asking people to print more unoficial ballots at home in their personal
printer

Local policemen in rebelion against the mandate of a catalonian jury. Local
and national policy accusing the other from obstructing deliberately their
duty.

People rioting and ocupying public buildings, after pressing for months to
directors of schools and health care centers to give up the building keys and
break the law. Many hundreds of both policemen an people hurt in 'pacific'
events that include asaulting in mass and wallpapering police cars with pro-
referendum posters (with policemen inside), throwing pacifically rocks and
chairs to the police, and biting them.

Asking parents to excuse their kids from being to the school because the
minors have to manifestate for promoting the "referendum"

Asking parents to take minors to last hour created "weekend activities and
parties" in their schools (to have a legal excuse for the public school being
opened the day of the scam)

Of course the majority of the same politics that pressed hard the normal
people to commit an illegal act, had deserted from being seen in any
organizational task the day of the referendum, to avoid being sued themselves.

... A total nonsense.

This was paid with public money with two clear objectives in mind and maybe
other two hypothetical objectives that well discuse in a next post.

~~~
pvaldes
1) Creating disturbes

They need the disturbes to force Catalonian people to radicalize and take part
pushed by the tread of violence, real or felt (Those 893 people beaten equals
to the 0,01% of the total population.

And they need it also as bait for fishing international actors, much needed to
legitimate the actions taken. "Look how mistreated we are by this evil
people", "look how oppressed we are". We _have earned_ with our suffering the
right to be free and have a country. Would you don't please recognise our
small, hopeful and happy new country?

Yes, this is what they are saying now and this is how manipulative are they.

2) Justifying the largely announced declaration of secession

Declaring that "invent random number here" therefore the majority of people
asked for it in a "democratic referendum", even if the referendum was a total
mess, there are arguments to consider that many votes are fake and
miraculously, we have still 2 millions of votes pro-independency after hundred
of electoral tables where closed and urns confiscated by the government. Not
much different to saying that, after everybody in the room has taken a piece
of pizza, we still have the entire pizza in the box.

3) _maybe_ (I'm talking hypothetically now) divert funds to pay the fines put
by jury by previous separatist events to the former politicians at charge

4) and _maybe_ being so obnoxious that will obligate the central government to
take drastic measures, providing a safe exit for the politicians that promised
independence for years to its public but can't do it and really don't want it.

Whereas allowing the wheel to keep spinning of course ("I really wanted to
declare the independence and live happy forever, but the bad guys do not allow
me to do this, we need to keep trying harder").

