
The American Soviet Mentality - andrenth
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/american-soviet-mentality
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Mikhail_Edoshin
I wouldn't quite agree here. The Soviet condemnation of Pasternak and others
was an orchestrated campaign from the top. The Soviet masses of that time were
largely indifferent and the common attitude toward the state propaganda was
deep cynicism or apathy. Of course, there were some lay people who "haven't
read Pasternak, but condemn him", but it was either naivety or posing. Nobody
saw it then but in mere 30 years the USSR would collapse.

I would compare what I see in USA nowadays to a different period in Russian
history: the time before the Russian Revolution in 1917. It was a state of
great turmoil, there were constant terrorist attacks against state officials
and nobility (Lenin's elder brother was executed for attempting to kill the
tzar), etc... yet somehow all this was massively supported by the
"intelligentsia": the educated, well-off and sometimes very rich people. It
was not a problem to give a shelter to "a revolutionary", to pass around
leaflets, to help with money, to cover up robberies that were carried off by
the radicals in search of funds, and so on. Almost all students were radical.
Nobody paid any attention to a few dissenting conservative voices.

"Russia, washed in blood", "The damned days", and "The ashen horse" are the
titles of some of the books that described what followed.

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watwut
You are conflating different Russian political groups fighting each other into
one. The issues with Russian feudalism were many which led to various groups
opposing current goverment.

Russian history deserves to be approach with same seriousness as American
rather then being simplified to kindergarten level.

Anyway, America now is not like russia back then at all.

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blacklion
I've tried once explain to American software engineers why people from east
Europe and, especially, ex-USSR countries, reacts so hard against
black/whitelist renaming in software: because it looks exactly as "back to
USSR" for them (I'm from Russia myself but I try to reflect these knee-jerk
reactions).

Looks like no one in discussion understood what I want to say, and I was named
non-tolerant and "bad" as result of this try.

Please note, I didn't say anything against such changes, I've only try to
explain, that people with ex-USSR/Warsaw block background could react against
such changes, not because they are racists, but because it revive very painful
memories in them. And, yes, as result I'm almost racist too.

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allarm
I really liked how you combined “knee-jerk reaction”, “oh no, they’re not
racists, they just look like racists and behave like racists, but that’s just
because they were deeply traumatized” and “I don’t have anything in common
with those racists”. A really enjoyable attempt to seat on two seats. The
truth is that people from ex-USSR and most of the EU countries were born and
grew up in primarily white society. There’s no direct connection in their
minds between the race and the name of the color. They’re not inherently
racist so to speak, it’s a very American thing, that Americans tend to forget
quite often. When I think of a blacklist I imagine a list colored black, not
the people of color and all the history behind it. That’s exactly why I
believe these renaming attempts to be astoundingly stupid, please don’t
involve the Soviet trauma bs in that.

~~~
watwut
> The truth is that people from ex-USSR and most of the EU countries were born
> and grew up in primarily white society. There’s no direct connection in
> their minds between the race and the name of the color.

The first part is true, second part is not. The people from Eastern block are
well aware of the races and do have opinions about which race is how, up to
certain races being inferior.

The blacklist as word is not associated with race. But they will make quick
judgements about what the words and events and historical characters should
mean for black or white Americans. That typically with zero knowledge of
American history and race relations. You will also see people assuming native
Americans history is what the movie "Winnetou" shows.

For example, when there is conflict about things like Africans complaining
about not getting proper scientific attribution, you can count on eastern
European people assuming African is crazy and don't deserve that.

~~~
allarm
Well, I’m not saying that they’re not aware of the races per se. I’m saying
that “black” for them means the name of the color, again, not the racial
reference. That’s why renaming blacklist/whitelist things is a very american-
centric thing, which looks ridiculous to the most of the world outside
Americas.

~~~
watwut
So, Americans rename things in American software or writing because of what
those words mean to them in their own native language. Then people who have
that language as second and dont really know wtf is going on ridicule them and
complain about that being american-centric?

When Americans do the same, they are rightfully labeled as arrogant. It is
same arrogance when Eastern Europeans do it.

~~~
blacklion
It is not so simple, as "arrogance".

First, it is international software. OSS is world-wide and international, not
American one.

Second, people for whom English is second language, really know that it is
called "censorship", no matter is intentions good or bad. This people have
very recent experiences with censorship as one of main tools of dictatorship.
And they are afraid, that dictatorship returns, at gut level. They could
understand that intentions is good (again, they are not racists or sexists or
whatever), but they hate these measures, and they don't believe that "the end
justifies the means", because they remember that it was de-facto motto of
dictatorships in Eastern Europe.

~~~
watwut
People in eastern Europe are way more accepting of censorship of various kinds
and Americans. They also tend to be more pro-authoritarian.

So I don't think this is so valid.

What eastern european has more then that is utter shock over conflicts that
arise when people speak their minds more. Plus, it is not like America did not
had censorship of private kind in the past. It had. It did not had state one.

Because really, if some place is more at risk of dictatorship coming back, it
is various countries in Eastern Europe. So much for people there being scared.
Some are, but what others really want is strong hand to squash whatever is
perceived of breaking the peace.

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johnny22
This really reads like it's overplaying its hand. Some of the concerns are
valid, but it's so over the top that I can't take it seriously.

The real American Soviet Mentality is the ossification of the bureaucracy at
all levels such that unsolved fundamental problems are leading to collective
action because other avenues have completely failed.

~~~
euroderf
Indeed. The title suggested discussion of economic-bureaucratic ossification.

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avmich
Something went wrong

An error occurred while loading this page. Try refreshing this page or
navigate back to the front page.

~~~
ncmncm
It wants to run Javascript code before it will show you text.

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type0
If JS is not enables we get this

> You need to enable JavaScript to run this app.

What does this application actually do? Does it only show the text or does it
allow visitors to play games or something more. I'm just puzzled by how often
such occurrences happen nowadays.

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axilmar
It seems the soviet condemnation of public figures has nothing to do with what
happened in USA: in the case of the USSR, the condemnation started from the
ruling party, i.e. from the top, whereas in the USA case presented in the
article, the condemnation started from the bottom.

And the tweet about "wokes who want to be safe over libertarian values" was
indeed insulting.

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7532yahoogmail
op - thank you for posting. Cogent. Well argued. Timely.

