
Grand Rapids has become a midwestern economic star generating industrial jobs - prostoalex
https://www.city-journal.org/html/manufacturing-comeback-15833.html
======
karmicthreat
I currently work in GR as a software developer so if you want the inside scoop
contact me.

I will say Grand Rapids currently has some issues around software developers
that are associated with our growing pains. Because of the rust belt
depression of wages, we still haven't caught up. Wages for software developers
here lag by about 20 percent. Most employers are used to paying a much lower
wage than I would expect elsewhere. Senior developers might make 80-90K and
juniors can expect to be making 40-50K. If you are an ineffective negotiator
you might be lower. Many of my contemporaries have chosen to get remote jobs
with the usual suspects. Zapier, Bitbucket, Sourceforge, Slack and others all
have local people.

That said, this is a wonderful town that is changing all the time. The cost of
living is low, though our real estate market is out of control and has been
for a couple years. The developers here tend to have a strong sense of
community and we generally support one another rather than tear each other
down. We have some great local developers.

If you would like the low down on our growing town or are interest in moving,
setting up a remote shop or building a company in our town let me know. I'd be
happy to help you or get you in contact with those that can. (see profile)

~~~
rossdavidh
Not looking to move, but just out of curiousity, how would you say developer
salary / cost of living compares, to, say San Francisco? No surprise that both
will be a lot lower in Grand Rapids, but I'm wondering how the ratio looks.

~~~
citrablue
Numbeo is a great site for cost of living comparison. Here's SF versus Grand
Rapids[0]. To sum, if your takehome is $7800 in SF, you can live a similar
lifestyle on $3700 in Grand Rapids.

So, about half the cost of living.

[0] [https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=United+States&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=Grand+Rapids%2C+MI&tracking=getDispatchComparison)

~~~
bpicolo
That of course depends on what you're going for. The 'lifestyle' comparison
only takes into account basic goods. It doesn't take into everything else that
actually affects your personal quality of life (cities vs more rural life each
have vastly different benefits).

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Not only that, but many things have a constant price: international air
tickets, cars, and computers don’t vary in cost much between GR and SF (some
are even more expensive in the lower cost place).

~~~
bpicolo
> international air tickets

Air tickets are significantly cheaper in NY than ruralish areas in my
experience

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Yes, I’m sure tickets to SFO to Asia are often cheaper than from Grand Rapids
or even Detroit.

~~~
bpicolo
Arbitrary example: GRR -> Copenhagen roundtrip is ~$1,100 USD. From NYC or SF
I can do that for ~$400-$500. Pretty much anywhere else I could pick has a
similar differential.

That's a massive cost difference, especially when you're looking at 2-4 person
vacations. That's a problem in pretty much every rural area (flying out of
Ithaca was expensive as heck). I'm able to travel way more as a result.

------
wenc
I lived in a rust belt city in for many years, and in recent years have been
witnessing a slew of "rust-belt renaissance" articles pop up every now and
then about how things are turning around in deindustrialized cities
(Pittsburgh is often cited as a shining example of a city that has seen a
turnaround).

These articles typically state something along the lines of the low COL (cost-
of-living) luring young people back from coastal cities. Some even overstate
their case quite a bit by projecting they'll be the next Silicon Valley or
startup hub. I wonder how folks here feel about such articles?

I can't help but notice there's some element of boosterism that misses a
something fundamental. To be sure, it makes people who live in rust belt
cities feel better about themselves (I was one of those people), but it
doesn't seem to really move the needle in attracting the very ambitious to
these places. In my observation, the truly ambitious are insensitive to cost-
of-living arguments.

Paul Graham wrote an article entitled "Cities and Ambition" [1] which speaks
to this. It tracks with my observation that people at the top of their games
tend to cluster, and are willing to suffer discomfort to live among their
peers.

\---

Some quotes:

"How much does it matter what message a city sends? Empirically, the answer
seems to be: a lot. You might think that if you had enough strength of mind to
do great things, you'd be able to transcend your environment. Where you live
should make at most a couple percent difference. But if you look at the
historical evidence, it seems to matter more than that. Most people who did
great things were clumped together in a few places where that sort of thing
was done at the time."

"No matter how determined you are, it's hard not to be influenced by the
people around you. It's not so much that you do whatever a city expects of
you, but that you get discouraged when no one around you cares about the same
things you do."

[1]
[http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html)

~~~
thesagan
I think these articles speak with the ambition of these cities themselves
despite the loss of their industrial base; to my mind this ambitiousness _is_
correlated with boosterism. And it does makes people feel good, and it might
work, too, at supporting ambition. Just like how folks in NYC and SF often
speak highly (as well as ill) of their homes. It feels good!

I'm not sure of how some cities are more expensive correlates with overall
ambition so much as it does class. People from all classes can be very
ambitious even if they're unequal in wealth.

~~~
wenc
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think you're right -- positivity does
create virtuous cycles.

On a related note, I suspect cities primarily relying on cost-of-living
arguments to attract people may actually be subtly signalling the reverse of
what ambitious people are drawn to. A city's primary signal should be the
vibrancy of the place, not the low cost of living.

In my old rust belt city, many were proud of the fact that folks who left for
New York City were coming back because we offered a low cost of living. But
the people returning were also those who had "given up" on their ambitions...
whose dreams were broken by NYC. I realize this is a bit of an unfair
generalization, because it's not universally true (some ambitious chefs who
returned -- and they are very good -- were those who trained in NYC but simply
found NY's restaurant economics too oppressive). But supposing we were subtly
attracting folks who had "given up"... in large enough numbers, they are
likely to set a certain cultural tone for the city. Great cities are not built
on low cost-of-living is all I'm saying.

Side: as a historical example, consider Canada vs U.S. -- Canadians are
generally a more risk-averse people than Americans, and it's partly because
the United Empire Loyalists were American loyalists who chose the safer route
of siding with the British, whereas U.S. Americans forged their own path. The
Loyalists set the tone for much of the country.

As to your second point, cities with ambition tend to be expensive because
people want to live in them, often in spite of the expense. However, the
reverse is not true -- just because a city is expensive doesn't mean it
attracts ambition. Nantucket's pretty expensive but it's not brimming with
ambition. Not sure about expensive cities correlating with class... New York
is very expensive, but still manages to attract ambitious working class people
who are trying to make it there.

~~~
kd0amg
_On a related note, I suspect cities primarily relying on cost-of-living
arguments to attract people may actually be subtly signalling the reverse of
what ambitious people are drawn to. A city 's primary signal should be the
vibrancy of the place, not the low cost of living._

Yes. What makes me unlikely to return to Michigan long-term, as much as I
liked where I lived, is the limited career options I would have there. I am
apparently willing to put up with a rather high cost of living to work on what
I find interesting.

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LarryDarrell
After 5 years, I had to leave there. Too much religion. Too much smug
mediocrity. Too much fawning over the DeVos's & Meijers.

~~~
StudentStuff
Meijers is really the HEB of that area. I couldn't imagine living out there
long term as a non-religious, non-straight person.

~~~
anonymous_i
I don't know if that can be generalised. I lived in GR and went to Grand
Valley. I saw few churches with rainbow flag raised on them. Grand Valley is
also very big on protecting LGBTQ. Had gay friends knew gay bars. For an
immigrant like me, GR has been nothing but warm and nice. Sorry to hear about
your experience.

~~~
LarryDarrell
After you get asked for the umpteenth time what church you go to, it's easy to
get outed as the Company Heathen.

After not going to the company picnic over the course of few years (BBQ) it's
easy to get outed as the Company Vegetarian.

And then, because it is Grand Rapids, and the corporate world is very
different from the local public university, you pretty much get shunned. They
won't make your life completely miserable, but you will feel the affects of
being an permanent outsider.

YMMV, but I was batting 2 for 2 and have stories from others. I'm sure there
are some good employers around.

~~~
maxsilver
> After you get asked for the umpteenth time what church you go to, it's easy
> to get outed as the Company Heathen.

Generally, I tell people to just say "I go to Fountain Street Church". Even if
you don't know what that is, even if you've never set foot in the place, just
say those words anyway. It's essentially a community shared codephrase that
means "you aren't going to harass anyone about their religious beliefs".

It lets the strict Christians sleep at night (because you 'go to church'), but
it usually prevents any follow-up questions (because it's somewhat well known
as the 'overly-accepting' church, and they usually won't want to get into
orthodoxy specifics).

Meanwhile, that same phrase lets most of the non-religious locals know that,
regardless of whatever your actual beliefs are/aren't, you are a polite person
who doesn't want to face religious discrimination and is claiming not to do so
to others.

I'm not saying this is a good thing, it's not right to make people jump
through these silly hoops. But that's sort of how the game is played in Grand
Rapids.

~~~
StudentStuff
Considering its been years since I've talked to anyone about church, let alone
heard this kind of question asked, this would be a major culture shock. I
don't think I'm the only person out on the West Coast who hasn't heard
questions of that genre in years though.

------
mark_l_watson
I keep waiting for the Silicon Valley/New York/Boston/Seattle/etc. tech
hotspot bubble to pop, and companies look to areas of the country with low
cost of living, short commutes to work, etc.

I will probably have a long wait! The problem as I see it is that companies
need to be run with a ‘remote first’ culture, where people in outlying offices
are not second class citizens.

I recently was in NYC working for a few days, and while the environment is a
lot of fun, many people who work there have very long commutes. When I worked
as a contractor at Google in Mountain View, I came into the office at 6am to
beat the traffic. The cost of living in tech centers is awful compared to non-
east/west coast areas.

It seems like there is not much middle ground: either have everyone in one or
a few urban areas or have a distributed culture. Currently the business model
of concentrating workers in high cost areas is winning over distributed teams.

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knuththetruth
It’s very odd that this article goes out of its way to paint the Amway
billionaires as “good” and not “extractive.” Everyone I know from the area has
horror stories about friends or family members that got sucked into Amway’s
cultish pyramid scheme and had their lives destroyed.

They’re a big employer in the region, so locals do tend to “look the other
way.” But this is far too generous a portrayal of the families/company that
have created decades of devastation in the wake of its scam.

~~~
cozzyd
City Journal is run by the Manhattan Institute.

~~~
knuththetruth
Well, that explains it! Bought and paid for...

------
CamTin
Kalamazoo isn't doing bad these days, either. As someone who grew up in
Michigan (Saginaw), I would love to move to either, but IT jobs I'm qualified
for seem to be rather thin on the ground.

~~~
oneguynick
Saginaw is having issues, but there are a few consulting firms around the
area. Grand Rapids, Ann Arbor, Detroit, and Lansing though are having strong
comebacks. As someone from Standish, I look forward to the day that the MBS
area is more than just Dow.

~~~
timdellinger
One of the interesting things about MBS is that there's a huge amount of
under-employed or under-utilized talent that's basically (1) the "trailing
spouse" problem (one half of a couple has a Dow job, the other doesn't) plus
(2) Dow employees that have been lost in the shuffle and aren't in roles that
are a good match. I never quite came up with the right idea to take advantage
of the local talent pool... a startup incubator is a maybe. If Dow were the
smart and forward-looking, they would encourage a local startup community, but
that's not the pattern of decision-making that happens at Dow.

------
rmason
When I was younger Grand Rapids was seen as a dull place. Downtown closed at 5
pm and there wasn't much fun to be had for a young adult.

While the area is still pretty conservative that has changed mightily in the
last forty years. The city now has a lively downtown and all those breweries
have made the place a magnet for young people from the surrounding areas.

The 'lake effect' does mean they get a lot more snow than the eastern part of
the state.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake-
effect_snow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake-effect_snow)

~~~
mac01021
Aside from dining out, what fun is there to be had for young adults anywhere?

I mean, anywhere with a plentiful supply of other young adults gives you
approximately equal opportunity to socialize, right?

~~~
wenc
> Aside from dining out, what fun is there to be had for young adults
> anywhere?

As someone who used to live in the rust belt, I found my social life to be
vastly improved after moving to Chicago.

It's true you can be lonely in a big city, but the same is true in a small
town. The difference is that in a big city, significantly more options exist
if you are willing to step out.

After moving to a big city, I was able to connect with more people of like-
mind. The diversity of people I meet now is an order of magnitude greater. The
Meetup groups are significantly better (I can go to a technical meetup and
talk shop with people at my level). If I wanted to hang out with friends, the
scope of activities possible are also much wider. If I wanted to learn a
skill, take language classes, take evening classes at a world-renowned
university, etc., I can and have -- and have met interesting people through
these activities. If I wanted to go on a trip with friends, flights are much
cheaper out of a hub city. Job opportunities are also much more abundant -- if
I decided to change jobs tomorrow, I could do that without moving away.

The intellectual and cultural climate in a dynamic, thriving city is vastly
different from that of a single-industry town.

It's not just dining out.

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tjr225
I'm from there. Nice enough city...don't know if I would move back.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I used to live in Toledo as a kid and we went up to Grand Rapids one time for
a trip. I remember the forests surrounding the city were really nice, and of
course there was a lake nearby with waves big enough to body surf on. I can't
really say anything about the city, but that part of the Michigan has a lot to
offer.

~~~
qudat
Currently living in Ann Arbor. As a software engineer it's vibrant and full of
startups to join. Our javascript meetup usually has somewhere around 50-100
people every event.

Not to mention it's a small town with a lot of bigger city amenities, close
proximity to Detroit, and with it being a college town the average IQ is
pretty high.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The only thing I remember about Ann Arbor is my mom visiting a hospital there
for some reason. It seemed like a small quaint town, definitely not as bad as
Monroe.

~~~
quadrangle
calling Ann Arbor a small quaint town comparing it favorably to Monroe is just
a misunderstanding.

Monroe has like a sixth the population in the city limits and still less than
half the size comparing the two metro regions. Ann Arbor is in a different
class than Monroe. Monroe is a small town. Ann Arbor is a medium-small city
(over 100,000 in city, over 300,000 in metro area).

Ann Arbor is centered around the University of Michigan, consistently ranked
the #2 public school in the country, just behind UC Berkley. It has around
45,000 students. And yet Ann Arbor is big enough that students are still a
minority of the population.

The UofM hospital is generally ranked one of the top 10 in the country, so
it's not surprising for someone to go their for some special visit.

But sure, it's small and quaint compared to any real big city.

~~~
brett40324
Expanding on your comment, I think its worth mentioning Barracuda, Nokia, Ford
Labs, and Expedia are in Ann Arbor. Google has an office there, too.

~~~
quadrangle
Ann Arbor has a real tech scene for sure, and Google's office there is
significant. But whatever presence they have, Nokia and Expedia are not based
in Ann Arbor (as someone might infer from your post)

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I live in downtown Bellevue and I’m pretty sure the Expedia building down the
street is its headquarters.

------
jquast
Michigan winters may force you to stay indoors during winter storms. Lots of
great code is written in winter for this reason.

