
The CCC: Men Who Hate Women - Tomte
https://blog.patternsinthevoid.net/the-ccc-men-who-hate-women.html
======
sp332
Another story about the CCC's handling of another abuser:
[https://twitter.com/NGC_3572/status/945680642792189954](https://twitter.com/NGC_3572/status/945680642792189954)
(which as far as I can tell wasn't public before today?)

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ris
Whistleblowing, when making allegations against an _individual_ , is best done
under non-pseudonyms and inviting possible libel/slander charges. If you're
making allegations of this severity, it seems it would be better to straighten
out the facts of what happened in a court of law rather than let the court of
public opinion make its judgement. The "informality" of all of this makes me
quite uncomfortable.

~~~
sp332
Getting a court involved won't solve the community problem. If multiple active
members of the community come forward, that should have more weight then a
random judge's ruling. Nothing will compel them to "believe" or act like they
believe the judge either.

Two women, including the author of the article, put their own names on their
allegations.

~~~
ris
It is _not_ about a "random judge's ruling" \- a proper court of law has very
specific safeguards in place to ensure that both parties have a equal chance
to make their voice heard and put their case forward.

Now, it's possible to argue that those safeguards do not always work perfectly
but it's something I have far more confidence in than blog posts, which have
none of those requirements.

~~~
sp332
The conference should have safeguards as well. Instead if you're famous enough
and friends with the right people, you can get away with anything. See also
the link I replied to your sibling comment for a specific refutation of the
way German courts handle justice.

~~~
ris
Looking...

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throwaway55998
It's pretty obvious why they don't want to have a discussion with her. She's
an activist that isn't objective. The title is more hyperbole from her --
anyone who doesn't like her personally is a mysoginist. Likewise, the River
incident, which in Rivers own account is her having sex with her boyfriend in
front of his friends, while very drunk, becomes a "brutal gang rape." Not
negotiating with someone like this is just common sense.

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BlackLotus89
Reading this thread made me very sad. People talking about the ccc that
clearly don't have the slightest idea what the ccc is, talking about the "word
of god" of the hacker community. sp332 somehow tried to argue against a ruling
through a court of law mentioning this post
[https://blog.patternsinthevoid.net/the-forest-for-the-
trees....](https://blog.patternsinthevoid.net/the-forest-for-the-trees.html)

For the record: The first (and many times the only) place rape allegations
should be made are with the police so that they can be judged by a court of
law.

Accusing someone of a heinous crime like this (yes the prison sentences
mentioned in the blog post should be mostly correct) can ruin someone s life
even without a ruling. There was a fucking lynchmob for christ sake.

To the allegationa against Appelbaum: They were mostly proven to be false or
probably false. There were many accounts against the accuser and the accounts
that went against the accused were (afaik) mostly disproven (no claim was ever
proven or brought before a court of law). Here is a Spiegel article about it
for the once too lazy to google [http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-
appelbaum-rape-alleg...](http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-
rape-allegations-contradictions) here are accounts of ex girlfriends of his
[https://twitter.com/cfarivar/status/741634572673110016](https://twitter.com/cfarivar/status/741634572673110016)
This is the only case I know of where people actively defended someone accused
of rape that I know of.

Here are some links for the backlash the tor project got for proscecuting
someone like this without proof
[https://shiromarieke.github.io/tor](https://shiromarieke.github.io/tor)
[https://web.archive.org/web/20160817173704/https://www.oneey...](https://web.archive.org/web/20160817173704/https://www.oneeyedman.net/?p=2581)
[https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/19690](https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/19690)

And the ccc (even if I don't count myself as one of it's members anymore) is
one of the best, friendliest, most helpful, lawful good and open organisations
in existence and "articles" like thos are toxic (not to say evil) and fud
spreading. I will accept any ruling by a judge, but I will forever condemn
people "blogging" about things like this in a fashion like this.

~~~
sp332
I think event organizers should be told so that they can take steps to protect
other attendees. And if the victims would rather reconcile and restore their
relationship with the abuser, why would they go to court? Somehow you want
someone to spend decades in jail and be deported, but being merely avoided is
somehow too much - that's an odd value judgement.

~~~
stormking
It's more likely they don't want to go to court because they know the
accusations are bullshit.

~~~
sp332
[https://medium.com/@chelsea.komlo/behind-every-serial-
abuser...](https://medium.com/@chelsea.komlo/behind-every-serial-abuser-there-
are-many-enablers-491bf2303f82) "I firmly believe that individuals (and
organizations) who have committed mistakes should be forgiven if they truly
understand the harm done and genuinely work to make things right for the
future." You have failed to make a link from anything these people want to
anything they could get by going to the police. "The second person involved in
my assault has apologized and gone through a community justice process." So
it's not bullshit.

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Simon_says
This is the first I'm hearing of allegations that Jake and Will are rapists,
so I don't know anything about the case besides this article I just read.
Forgive me if I'm missing some part of the story that makes this make sense,
but shouldn't the first line of defense be to tell the police and let the
government prosecute rapists? I don't really think I want the Chaos Computer
Club to start deciding who is a rapist, again, unless there's some big part of
this story that I'm missing.

~~~
sp332
I'm sure other people will add links, it's been a long-running story. But a
lot of the people involved on both sides are anarchists of various stripes,
who would rather handle things themselves than get the police involved.

Edit: well no one else has posted links, so here are a couple.
[https://blog.patternsinthevoid.net/the-forest-for-the-
trees....](https://blog.patternsinthevoid.net/the-forest-for-the-trees.html)
[https://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2012/06/missing-
stair.html](https://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2012/06/missing-stair.html)

