
How US students get a university degree for free in Germany - anishkothari
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32821678
======
jpatokal
This is not unique to Germany. Finland also offers free degrees for everybody,
although there are rumbles about changing this from 2017-ish. Get in while you
can ;)

[http://www.studyinfinland.fi/tuition_and_scholarships/tuitio...](http://www.studyinfinland.fi/tuition_and_scholarships/tuition_fees)

It's also worth mentioning that in smaller countries like Finland, the level
of English is correspondingly higher, since everybody has been exposed to it
since they were young children and, by the time you get to the university
level, most textbooks are in English only. In larger EU countries like Germany
and France this is not the case.

~~~
soperj
As someone who visited Finland and Sweden for a long period of time in my
youth (and attended school in Finland), the spoken English was vastly better
in Sweden than in Finland (at the gr.7 level).

~~~
jpatokal
Yup, Swedes find English easier because the languages are related, while
Finnish is not. But broadly speaking, more or less anybody under 50 (60?) or
so in Finland will speak and understand English enough to communicate, and in
a university environment staff and students will be effectively bilingual.

~~~
soperj
Swedish is definitely easier to learn than Finnish, I'll give you that much.

------
pierre
I always wonder why there wasn t more american student here in switzerland.

Both ETH and EPFL rank in the top 15 best technology university wordwide [1]
and both are 500 USD / year for international students.

Swiss visa is also easier to get and is more flexible than other shengen
country ones, you will not have to loose a day in police station for renewing
every 6 months (as it is the case in france / germany). And if you ever want
to staybhere you get a 5 year resident permit automaticly if you found a job
and a salary comparable to american one for engineering job. [2]

[1] [https://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-
rank...](https://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-
rankings/2013-14/world-ranking)

[2] Swiss junior developer pay for engineer is between 70 to 120k USD whereas
french junior engeneer pay is 30 to 50k USD

~~~
pvaldes
A woman that worked as scientist for a year in a swiss university tells me
that the country is very beautiful, but people is hard to reach and you suffer
a lot of micro-agressions out of the workplace. Is really hard to find decent
houses for rent, and a lot of things seem to be more much expensive or harder
to obtain if you are not swiss. It takes a lot of time and money to become a
swiss resident also.

There are some major political parties also that actively spread xenophobia
and fear against foreigners, specially before the elections.

Finally she realized that was not just earning enough money to be worthwhile.

Just an opinion, your experience can be different (specially if you 'sprechen
deutsch'), but maybe american students think that is easier to work in other
countries. You earn less but enjoy a better quality of life instead. And of
course an english native is much more valued and find a job much easier in
european countries that normally don't speak english.

------
tokenadult
All of these stories suggest United States students who simply haven't done
enough shopping among United States colleges, of which there are thousands.
Most of the situations described could fit the same student getting a complete
tuition waiver (variously deemed "financial aid" or a "merit scholarship") at
plenty of United States universities. List price is not the price that many
college and university students pay to gain their higher education degrees,
and full list price is plenty low at many United States colleges and
universities.

On the other hand, as an American who studied abroad (after gaining my
undergraduate degree here), I have to say I'm happy that American students are
considering studying overseas, as that has educational value (being in another
country) even if the college is a poor value:cost trade-off. Especially
studying in a non-English-speaking country (as I did) is very educational, and
I highly recommend that to any American.

~~~
maehwasu
Full need-based aid (not merit scholarships), is extremely rare outside the
very top universities.

At other schools, including those ranked in the top 30 or so, "need-based aid"
is a euphemism for loans, often in extremely high amounts.

Anecdotal, but I've even seen bait-and-switch tactics at some places: my
brother was accepted at Tufts with a decent aid package, and then after
freshman year, with no change in family financials, saw it drastically
reduced. He dropped out and transferred immediately.

As mentioned in other comments, American education has a lot of pricing
similarities to American healthcare, and the lack of any sort of true market
mechanisms is a big reason why. Good to see some price pressure getting
applied.

Now, whether or not this is a good idea for Germany is a whole different
question...

~~~
Radle
Depends on how many people stay, and for how long.

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trynumber9
Studying in Germany isn't a bad idea at all. My brother did and it seems,
unsurprisingly, that German degrees are well respected in the automotive
engineering industry here in the states.

On the other hand, there's 10,160 German students studying full time in the US
at a higher nominal price from a 4x smaller population. Perhaps sometimes the
cost premium is worth it? Especially if you can get others to pay it via
scholarships.

~~~
le_doude
If you land in the Ivy league, then yes the price tag might be worth it. Who
wouldn't hire an MIT engineer, or an Harvard Lawyer if they can afford it? But
if you are not at the top schools why rack up the same type of student debt
while you can get the same level anywhere else in the world?

If your field is cultural then yes studying in the country in which it is more
pertinent makes sense (Why study Japanese literature in Italy just to
illustrate). But if your field is technical, or removed enough from local
culture then looking around makes all the sense in the world.

But frankly there is plenty of schools that I regard as highly as MIT, CMU and
such that are Europe (Polytech Paris, Poly Lausanne, Normal School of Pisa,
Poly Milan, ... I am forgetting a lot) or Asia (Tokyo Tech) and while you
might need to get a loan for some costs it will never get to US levels (I
studied in Unis in Italy, France and Japan to get my BS and MS and all my
loans were exactly EUR15000 by the time I found a job ... I had part-times and
Scholarships but those were not hard to get, and I had declared bankruptcy I
could have gotten rid of those since I took those loans in Europe).

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Schools like EPFL are good, but I wouldn't say they were as selective as MIT.
I guess its a subjective measure.

I got my undergraduate degree at UW, needed no loans at all (that was a
different time though).

~~~
peterfirefly
Isn't EPFL one of the top places in the world for micromechanics and possibly
also microelectronics due to the clock making heritage?

~~~
saryant
It's also the birthplace of Scala.

------
bootload
_" It's not unattractive for us when knowledge and know-how come to us from
other countries and result in jobs when these students have a business idea
and stay in Berlin to create their start-up,"_ \-- Steffen Krach, Berlin's
Secretary of Science.

matches somewhat to, _" Can you buy a Silicon Valley"_ ~
[http://paulgraham.com/maybe.html](http://paulgraham.com/maybe.html)

------
bayesianhorse
I just recently read that foreign students in Germany are failing
extraordinarily often. Mostly because of the language.

For someone who wants to go down that route in the US I would heavily
recommend learning German intensively for at least two years before even going
to Germany, and make sure you can read German almost as fast as their native
(English/Spanish) language.

A good starting point is Duolingo.com!

~~~
josu
The article states that no German is needed for many masters programs.

~~~
bayesianhorse
Living in Germany is relatively difficult without speaking German, even today.

~~~
santaclaus
Is it? That is the opposite of my experience! I spent a few months in Berlin
and I had to struggle to get people to speak German -- nine out of ten times
someone would hear my American accent and immediately switch over to
English... I wonder if it varies region to region (I admittedly didn't get out
of Berlin too often)?

~~~
dagw
Berlin is pretty much an exception. My wife has family all over Germany and
outside of Berlin and possibly Hamburg I find that very few people speak
decent over even any English. And it gets worse the further east you go.

That being said it also seems to be generational. People under 30 tend to know
English at a much higher rate than those over 50.

------
digitalsurgeon
While the education in Germany is no doubt great. But the benefits of studying
in Harvard or Stanford outweigh free education by miles, IMO. I got my MS
degree in Finland, my wife got her MS and PhD from Finland. But we both want
to send our kids to Harvard or Stanford.

~~~
chadzawistowski
Why do you think that is the case? What sort of benefits do you feel you are
you missing out on?

~~~
ahomescu1
I can't speak for digitalsurgeon, but I can think of a few (without having
ever studied at either of those universities):

1) The professors. Imagine taking classes and interacting with Nobel prize
winners, or other famous people in your field (let's say, taking a class with
Knuth at Stanford).

2) The networking/social aspects. Imagine being college roommates with "the
next Mark Zuckerberg", whoever that may be.

3) More cynically, the pedigree. This one isn't strictly required, but it
helps enormously if you want to get into academia, and it can also help you
with an industry career or start a startup (it can make things easier).

~~~
Squarel
1) This happens at other universities, including ones in Europe. Imagine
walking the same corridors as Newton walked, or being taught by professors who
currently work at CERN. 2) Most top tier universities would have this, imagine
being college roommates with the next Stephen Hawking or Prime Minister. 3)
The pedigree depends on what you are studying, and other nations have their
own prestigious universities

------
louithethrid
Maybe not really mentioned- but having a free edu and then returning to the
us- you basically get more money for the same job, as you dont have to repay
the loans and interests, but get the same plus the others get to reduce that
debt.

------
wobbleblob
A word of caution: before you decide to study in Europe, make sure that the
degree they are offering is accepted in the place where you hope to find a
job.

A masters at the TU of Munich from the article is probably not a problem, but
some types of European degrees don't have an American (or any foreign)
equivalent, and may have to be 'legalized'. American universities are not
required to accept a foreign under graduate degree, and may require you to
take a number of under graduate classes, even if you've already passed exams
in those subjects abroad.

~~~
jsumrall
Accepted? By who? I don't know any industry that 'accepts' a degree other than
maybe law and medical. If you want to transfer to an American university later
on, then sure you might have to do some work just like transferring from any
other school.

~~~
wobbleblob
Accepted as in recognized for what it's worth, or even recognized as a higher
education degree at all.

------
edko
Another place that is completely free is Argentina. There are quite a few
American students in Buenos Aires, not as many as in Germany, of course. It is
seen as a cool destination to get a degree, with a very affordable cost of
living, while learning Spanish.

------
quaffapint
It seems like most of the options are for your Masters. I only see one place
offering Bachelors in Computer Science (for example) in English.

------
atroyn
Something else I'd like to add: Many european universities, including TUM
which is highlighted in the article, also have exchange arrangements with U.S
universities. These are mostly top-tier engineering state schools like UC
Berkeley and Georgia Tech.

Because of the exchange agreement, tuition for the semester or year you are
there is waived. You can have your cake and eat it too.

------
siscia
I am a student in Milan (Politecnico di Milano) and I am really surprised that
Italy does not even appear as popular destination.

The fees is a little higher than in Germany, but no much, and I really believe
that our quality of teaching is at least comparable.

Italy school is very theoretical while German one is more practical.

By the way only 280€ in Munich seems a little off to me...

~~~
_delirium
Are Italian universities cheap even for non-EU citizens? That's the part that
is somewhat unusual about Germany's scheme, that it's near-free for anyone.
Most EU countries with low tuition extend that only to EU citizens, and charge
higher (sometimes UK-level) fees to non-EU foreigners. For example in Denmark
there is zero tuition for EU citizens, but €10,000/yr tuition for non-EU
citizens. This is because under the EU's equal-treatment provisions, EU
countries have to treat other EU students equally with their own nationals. So
those with no/low tuition for domestic students have to offer the no/low
tuition also to other EU students. But they can chage non-EU nationals what
they want, and many are lately treating foreign students (often from Asia) as
a source of income.

~~~
siscia
This is the relevant website of my university:
[http://www.polinternational.polimi.it/how-to-
apply/fees/](http://www.polinternational.polimi.it/how-to-apply/fees/)

The total cost for one year is ~3000€ however, depending on your financial
situation you end up paying less, ~2000€ but even less honestly...

However the bachelor course are in Italian.

------
abecedarius
Well, shoot -- I dropped out of high school and it turns out a GED isn't
equivalent to them.

But Finland would work!
[http://www.studyinfinland.fi/how_to_apply/eligibility_criter...](http://www.studyinfinland.fi/how_to_apply/eligibility_criteria)

------
mirimir
But instruction is all in German, right?

That requires some planning ahead.

Edit: Wow, I missed that. Very cool!

~~~
Radle
Depends on your University. You can get the MIND courses in English. Other
courses are usually held only in German.

~~~
programmer_dude
Do you mind telling us what is a MIND course? (can't Google for it since mind
is also an English word.)

~~~
cremno
MINT (not MIND) is relatively the same as STEM.

------
m3talridl3y
Hold on, what incentive does the EU have to allow US citizens to just go to
the EU, get a 4-year education, with full room & board, and then possibly head
back to the US? Color me skeptical.

~~~
mrweasel
It's not full room and board.

My university (in Denmark) had a large number of eastern European students it
created a very different environment, a better one in my opinion. Students are
exposed to different ideas, different approaches to solving programs and learn
to work together with people with a different background and culture. Of cause
my university focused heavily on group assignment and working in groups in
general.

I honestly don't mind that my tax money is spend on education people from
around the world, although I think it's currently only free for EU citizens.
And perhaps there's the added bonus of a few opting to stay and work in the
country.

~~~
Squarel
I agree.

I am also in Denmark, and my university has a number of students from eastern
Europe, Russia, South America, Iran, China, as well as those on scholarships
from developing nations, and exchange students from the US and Canada.

(I suspect we may have attended the same university, as mine also focused
heavily on semester projects (50% of the ECTS) and group work)

