
Why you shouldn't do what Aaron did - Pitarou
Hi,<p>TL;DR If Swartz's death is triggering suicidal thoughts, you must understand that this will pass, and life will be worth living.<p>After seeing the impact of Aaron Swartz's death on the Hacker News community, I am concerned about the Werther effect (the tendency of a prominent suicide to trigger other suicides).  I hope I can help by sharing what I learnt through 10+ years of depression and recovery.<p>Depression robs you of the ability to:
1. remember happiness
2. feel happiness
3. anticipate happiness
4. make considered decisions<p>#1-#3 make you miserable, but #4 is the killer.  Bits of your brain actually shut down, and you run on pure emotion.  For example, when I was depressed, I was easy prey for offers like "4 for the price of 3 on this crappy overpriced chocolate" because I couldn't weigh it up.  All I could think was "chocolate: good.  4 for 3: good.  4 for 3 chocolate: irresistible".  But if you're running on pure emotion and your emotions tell you "everything sucks" well ... suicide looks like a good option.<p>So why didn't I kill myself?  Somewhere in my guts, there was a stubborn belief that "this will pass".  You might even call it a sense of entitlement: "come on world -- you can give me something better than this!"  And you know what?  It DID!  Thanks to some wonderful people, and to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, I found a way to recover.<p>With the best 10+ years of my life lost to depression, starting from scratch in my 30s has been hard, but it's still a life, and I swear that life is worth more than you can possibly understand when you're depressed.<p>Stay strong,<p>Pitarou
======
mtowle
The following probably won't see the light of day-- few of my posts here seem
to, for whatever reason. And it's not a lengthy diatribe on reasons for living
or reasons for suicide. Much smarter men than I have written on that subject,
both recently and throughout recorded history. If it's in such words you find
your personal solace, please disregard what I have to say. I never found any
solace in it, though; I don't believe in Epiphany Theory.

Currently 24, I've dealt with depression and suicidal thoughts on and off for
4 or 5 years now. That heavy depression where you don't take care of yourself,
don't shower, don't brush your teeth, you eat just enough to stay alive (I
once subsisted on 2-liters of Mountain Dew and 99-cent bags of Utz cheese
puffs for weeks-- dropped my deuces like a wood-chipper). You avoid going to
sleep because after 31 episodes of Futurama, all you can think to do is watch
a 32nd. You avoid waking up because you don't want to...be alive.

You shut yourself in, you stop going to class, you don't answer anyone's phone
calls, you cut yourself off from the outside. You set yourself up to make it
as easy as possible. How can your parents miss you if you haven't talked to
them in weeks? If anything, you tell yourself, the fact that their calls have
gone from hourly to daily to weekly is a sign that they've almost let
go...can't let them in now, or it'll be too hard for them when you're gone.
Emotionally hard, anyway. Really, they'll be better off with me out of the
picture. Everyone will. I'm doing everyone a favor--Mom, Dad, my brother and
sister, my friends who obviously just pity me, everyone.

That was me 3 years ago. Today I'm happy! :) I'm fine. I'm doing awesome. I
don't attribute the turnaround to blog posts, I attribute it to taking my
goddamn anxiety medication. Consistently. Every freaking day. If you forget,
fine, but take it the next day, and the day after, and keep freaking taking
it. _It helps._ Take your meds, everybody. Give it a shot for a couple months
and see if things change. If you still feel down, go back to your psych and
tell them, and they'll prescribe something else. Epiphanies always feel like
the answer, and meds feel like the enemy, but do everyone who loves you a
favor and give them a shot. Please.

~~~
Pitarou
I'm really glad your meds worked for you.

In my case, the meds did very little for me. Prozac did nothing. Seroxat made
me worse. Venlafaxine moved the needle a little but not enough to make me
functional.

And I quite agree that there's no such thing as a blog post epiphany.
"Epiphanies" only happen after a whole lot of other preparation behind the
scenes.

------
seiji
Studies of suicide[1] show it's an escape from yourself (kinda obvious), but I
think the insight is: it all starts with blaming yourself.

If you don't blame yourself, the chain of suicide doesn't start. People don't
suicide themselves because _somebody else_ has annoying life circumstances.
Circumstances are relative too. Modern society is constantly throwing other
people's success, joy, accomplishment, and bravado in our faces. It can make
us feel less than what we are. It can make us feel like our lives aren't good
enough. Stop comparing your life to anything you've read anywhere anytime. We
live in an age of magic. Be a wizard.

Blaming yourself is a dangerous path to go down. Don't blame yourself. The
world is big and time is long. Things will work out.

[1]: <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2408091> and summarized at my
<http://suicidescale.com/> site.

~~~
kordless
> The world is big and time is long. Things will work out.

The best advice and totally true!

~~~
sramsay
It is totally true. And it's very hard to understand this when you're twenty-
six years old.

My heart just breaks . . .

------
vannevar
_So why didn't I kill myself? Somewhere in my guts, there was a stubborn
belief that "this will pass"._

This is a critical point. If you know someone who is prone to depression, it's
important to understand that they may simply be incapable of generating this
kind of hope within themselves. Depression is not merely the loss of
happiness, but the loss of the belief that you can _ever be happy again_.
That's why intervention is so important when someone is suicidal:
[http://www.save.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewpage&p...](http://www.save.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewpage&page_id=705f4071-99a7-f3f5-e2a64a5a8beaadd8)
.

------
_delirium
In general I would agree. But if I were facing prison, it's tougher to say
what the rational course of action is. It might be the decision I'd make if I
were starkly given the option of suicide or decades in prison. The biggest
question would be determining whether that's really the stark decision, or if
there's a possibility of finding a way out of it. If acquittal is a
possibility, making a decision too early would be tragic (but I'd also be
afraid that making a decision too _late_ may be tragic in a different way).

It's true that it's important to make sure that depression is not coloring
your assessment of that: it's quite common for depressed people to have a view
that things are hopeless when they aren't. But on the other hand, sometimes
the world sucks, and not every situation has a good way out of it. For most
people, things get better and what seemed like insurmountable obstacles will
pass. But I don't think you can honestly tell someone that a major felony
criminal case is a temporary setback, something that will pass, and only their
depression is making it seem more hopeless than it is. In a large percentage
of cases it doesn't pass, and the person isn't able to continue their life as
a free person. A situation I hope never to be in, but I don't think the
correct decision, if you're actually facing a choice of whether to go to
prison for a long time or not, is obvious.

I can't say whether that was Aaron's own motivation, though, or how rational
his thinking on the subject was.

~~~
javajosh
Actually, I think you can do quite a lot from prison. Blaise Pascal famously
stated that all of man's problems stems from the inability to sit in a room,
alone, quietly. Indeed, many important actions have been taken from prison.
But even if activism isn't your taste, but rather self-improvement, it seems
like prison is a good opportunity to work on meditation. Indeed, meditation
cells in the east are substantially smaller than a prison cell.

Personally, I wish Aaron (and Lessig, and everyone) had made more of a stink.
I wish he would have threatened suicide, and then not gone through with it.
Maybe swallowed some pills and then rushed to the hospital. That would have
gotten attention, and it would have saved a brilliant mind.

~~~
_delirium
If imprisonment just meant being confined, but in otherwise reasonably humane
conditions, with decent access to reading/writing material, I could see that
as a stomachable option. That's what the historical imprisonment conditions
for the upper class were in many countries, and from what I've read is how
Scandinavian prisons are run. But everything I've read about the conditions in
American prisons does not make them sound humane. They are highly overcrowded,
often have purposely punitive conditions (limited access to reading materials,
forced labor, etc.), and your risk of suffering violence and rape is
extraordinarily high. I don't think I would consider it an acceptable option.
And the trouble is, you have to decide ahead of time: if you go to prison on a
30-year sentence and realize sometime while there that you'd rather be dead,
it's difficult to do much about it at that point. Even the possibility of that
feels horrible and claustrophobic: being stuck somewhere with literally no way
out, not through any regular means (change of city, change of friends, restart
your life), _not even_ suicide as a way out. Just stuck there.

~~~
ars
You shouldn't learn everything solely from media.

America has a whole range of prisons see:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#United_States>

The lower levels have plenty of reading material and even internet access.
There is little risk of abuse from the other prisoners since they too are
there for non violent offenses.

~~~
_delirium
I agree it varies, but what I've read (not mainly from the media, but from
government and academic reports) still doesn't paint a particularly pretty
picture overall. For example, here is the Bureau of Justice Statistics on
prison rape:
[http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1149](http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1149)

And here is the Government Accountability Office on overcrowding in the
federal prison system: <http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-12-743>

------
hkmurakami
_> Depression robs you of the ability to: 1. remember happiness 2. feel
happiness 3. anticipate happiness 4. make considered decisions_

I've spent many hours thinking about how each of us can dig ourselves out of
our dark places when we unfortunately get stuck in them from time to time; I
don't think I've seen the core symptoms of depression expressed so succinctly
in these few years since my own difficult times.

I spent Christmas week with friends in Hawaii, and I told my friend (who has
lost an older brother to suicide -- so we talk about this sort of thing from
time to time) that being conscious of "happy times" like this and making an
effort to remember these great moments during our difficult moments is
probably a key factor in preventing suicidal thoughts in us. He agreed.

------
Mz
If you react really negatively to the news of this suicide, one thing you can
do is _seek out company_. I have basically been suicidal for years but I am
rarely alone. I am actually pretty pissed off and disgusted by the bullshit I
am reading on hn today. Most people are assholes most of the time, then
someone commits suicide and they try to say something nice for a change. A
forum I belonged to posthumously reinstated a former member whom they had
banned. I thought they were assholes. They couldn't be supportive while he was
alive but he committed suicide so now they have to find some way to make peace
with the reality that they were assholes to him while he still lived.
Suddenly, the faux niceties come out. Try being supportive and tolerant to the
living. The dead don't need your bullshit fake nice words. They are beyond
helping.

I may need to start a blog post. I am sure hn isn't interested in more of my
cranky ranting about what is very normal behavior but which I happen to think
is completely shitty behavior.

TLDR:

 _If you are at risk for finally offing yourself because Aaron did, try to
avoid being alone._ Suicide usually occurs when one is alone. Never being
alone is a big part of why I am still alive, in spite of having abundant
reason to say "fuck you, world, I have had enough of your shit".

------
julienmarie
I just see a lot of people talking about cognitive behavioral therapies. I
guess it's one of the differences in the "psy" area between the US and Europe
where psychoanalysis is more widespread.

I've also known some deep depressive years (after my mother committed
suicide). The cure has been to read ( Nietzsche mainly), to embrace it, to
listen to my brain, to little by little understand it. Understanding that
depression is a pure symptom of our humanity : it's the moment you loose
meaning in your life ( as Nietzsche says, the Human being is the only animal
who needs meaning to live ). And then, you realize that the meaning of your
life can only come from one source : yourself. We are easily trap by the need
of approval, the need of existence within the eyes of the one who surrounds
us. These approvals do not exist and are only projected, forecasted,
approvals, it's our own devils. We are free to put whatever meaning we desire
on our lives, as long as we respect others. Life is a permanent challenge to
ourselves. This is the reason this is the most beautiful journey... Life is
short anyway, let's make it a beautiful adventure. There is nothing to lose,
everything to gain.

~~~
nnq
I also found Nietzsche uplifting when some time ago I was "loosing faith in
humanity"... but I never thought it a good idea to recommend him to anyone
else as it seemed quite bad for one's mental health on the whole, though it
worked great for me... I'm glad there are others that found inspiration in
these writings :)

------
rohamg
Thanks for posting this. I too am alarmed at the HN community's response. It
is surprising how such strong talent can feel so powerless- you'd think
hackers would be less susceptible to giving up given that _we can change
things with our bare hands_. It's easy to give up, it's incrementally harder
to say "this will pass", it's hardest of all to snap ourselves out- slap
ourselves in the face and remind each other of the immense privilege we all
were born into, and see problems in the world with a sense of duty and
responsibility, not despair. Honestly- I'm a bit shocked at the sense of
entitlement people have of life sometimes, expecting happiness to be delivered
on a platter (or via API). Life is a startup, it is a fucking war: keep busy
and fight the good fight. If we're on HN we're already in the top 1% - if we
have problems we should get out there and do something about it.

~~~
_phred
>> Depression robs you of the ability to: 1. remember happiness 2. feel
happiness 3. anticipate happiness 4. make considered decisions

Just a friendly reminder that depressed people cannot, for the most part "snap
[ourselves] out." If the solution was to double down and power through I'd
have cured my own depression years ago.

The shitty thing is that it's a long-living subconscious emotional drain. It's
a downward slide that for me happened so slowly I didn't even notice until I'd
lived at the bottom, completely burned out on life and barely functional for
two years. It's not only a mental disorder, it's technically called
"psychomotor depression" because it will by degrees affect mind and body in a
downward spiral.

I've never lost sight of the bigger issues, the disorder and opportunity for
change in world-at-large, but it's impossible to make meaningful progress
toward /anything/ whilst waking up every day with a gnawing emotional
emptiness and pain thrusting itself into the center of my consciousness. It's
care about those bigger issues and for my family that has kept me in this
world.

My point is this: whether you mean to or not, you suggest that people can get
themselves out of depression. In general, this doesn't happen. Therapy,
medication, and support of friends, combined with healthy living have begun to
move me forward in my own struggle.

I hope to see in my lifetime an elimination of the social stigma of
depression. We're not miserable entitled bastards that need a reminder of our
incredible opportunities. We're folk who feel sad and whose brains work in a
way such that we can't always see the way forward. That's all there is to it.

------
buchuki
Thank you for this, I've been meaning to author something similar, but I'd
choose the exact same words.

After 20 years of depression my death was averted by the words "I'd rather see
you institutionalized than dead." Two weeks on the psychiatric ward and an
ongoing series of changes later, I now lead the happiest life possible. You
can, too.

So now, I give these words back to the community. I don't know who you are,
but with all my heart: I'd rather see you institutionalized than dead.

~~~
tomjen3
I am very happy those words changed your life.

But personally, I would rather be death than institutionalized.

------
dear
Why people need to feel so depressed to commit suicide? I don't understand.
Programmers are supposed to be rational, non-emotional. Take it easy. It's
just another day in the universe. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of
things.

~~~
level09
depression is not rational, it's an illness, it just happens ..

~~~
zaphar
The first two parts of your sentence are correct. The last one not necessarily
correct. Depression can be caused by a chemical imbalance. It can also be
caused/exacerbated by your own thoughts and approaches to life. It doesn't
just _happen_ it has causes and is correctable and in many circumstances is
preventable.

I think the general point you were trying to make is good. Depression can crop
up in the best of us. But acting like it's unavoidable and just something you
have to live with is perhaps not the best way of approaching it either.

~~~
pfortuny
Oh, I guess he just wanted to point out that it 'happens' just as 'flu'
happens or any other disease: it is not something that you try to get and in
most cases it is hard to prevent.

------
zoba
I previously struggled with intense depression that lasted about 4 years. At
the end of the four years, I had a realization that was so powerful that I
haven't entered a period of depression lasting more than a week in the
subsequent 4 years. My hopes are that this story, and the lesson learned by
the end of it, may help others. In addition, its important to state that this
is my story as it happened. I am one man, with one limited perspective on the
world. I do not claim to know the details of everyone's situation and
therefore do not pass judgement on their decisions regarding a very serious
topic.

The story goes like this... In senior year of high school I 'formalized' my
atheism. I'll save those details for another day, however, it suffices to say
that I was confident that I was drawing the correct conclusion about the
nonexistence of god. In thinking about the implications of a godless universe
I realized the vastness of time, the insignificance of myself, and how nothing
actually mattered. There is (or so I thought) no reason to do anything at all
because its all going to be washed away in time. My drive to carry on
vanished. Everything was futile, hopeless. Nothing I did mattered so why do
anything at all -- why feel happy about anything at all?

I constantly thought of suicide. The ways I'd do it, the statements I'd try to
make with it. It was an awful time, and it was all right in the middle of my
undergraduate college experience. This continued on for a couple years as I
tried as best I could with school while investigating how other people are
able to cope with the magnitude of this concept. The reality I found was that
most people don't cope with it, or rather, they cope with it by never even
considering it. That only made things worse of course, everyone I'd talk to
about this had almost nothing to say.

One day I decided I'd actually go through with it. As I lay on my bed I
thought to myself "Alright, its been long enough. I've felt terrible and
thought of suicide for years now. Either I'm going to man up and get this over
with, or I'm just going to keep dreaming of doing it every day." So I bullied
myself into finally committing to finish it, and there was a sense of relief.
I asked myself why I hadn't decided to do it sooner. That was when I made the
most fantastic discovery of my entire life, but first, some other things you
should know.

During this time I was also struggling with being gay and, as a gay computer
scientist myself, I found Alan Turing very interesting. It struck me as awful
that he died in 1954, not long before The Beatles, free love, and the full
onset of the civil rights movement. Just a few more years and he could have
lived in, and possibly even helped to shape, a much more liberal society.

When I asked myself why I hadn't decided to do it sooner, I realized it was
because I was never sure. I always hoped that I would find some clue that
would change my mind. So I thought to myself: am I sure now? Do I have
conclusive evidence that killing myself is the right thing to do? Am I certain
there won't be some dramatic unforeseen shift in circumstances that would
improve my life and make me not want to kill myself (like Turing missed out
on)? No, I was not absolutely certain that life had no meaning.

We know so little of the universe and theres no way that any of us can be
absolutely certain that suicide is the best choice without research that would
take hundreds of years in understanding physics, the mind, and probably fields
that don't even exist yet. Its possible that life does indeed have a purpose
and we simply don't know it. The optimal thing to do is to continue on and do
as best we can to discover this purpose -- because if there is a purpose, then
actively looking for it is the smart way to find it. If there isn't a purpose,
then the time we 'wasted' in search of a purpose wasn't really wasted after
all because theres no way to judge whether it was time well spent without an
ultimate purpose.

Getting back to the discovery... Probably mere hours away from killing myself,
I realized that there was no way to know if killing myself was the right thing
to do. There may be something to live for that I don't know about -- some
overarching infallible truth embedded in the fabric of the universe that gives
life meaning. This was a powerful idea: I should not kill myself because there
may be a purpose of life. Now I decided to not kill myself...but what should I
do next? I had no plans; after all, I had expected to be dead later that day.
Well, it was simple. Nothing mattered except the thing that had kept me alive:
the potential for a purpose of life.

I realized that every bit of my life should be based on discovering the
purpose that may be embedded in the universe. The most important thing, the
driving factor in all aspects of my life, indeed my very own reason for
existence and purpose of life was to discover the purpose of life. "The
purpose of life is to discover the purpose of life." It is beautiful.

There are many questions and implications that come from realizing this
purpose of being alive but for now this comment is long enough. If you're
interested in hearing more, let me know. I've thought a lot about this and (in
true HN fashion) am building some tools which use ideas that stem from this
one. I hope that my story of how I walked right up to the precipice of death
and decided to turn back to life helps anyone who is also struggling with such
issues.

~~~
venus
Life has no purpose. It's just applied randomness, like everything else. This
is difficult for the non-religious to swallow, that's why religion exists.

HN isn't a support network but I fully understand and appreciate your post.

~~~
devcpp
Can you prove it?

His whole point is that there is no conclusive evidence that there is no
purpose to life, and there will never be if there is none to be found, and
that is precisely why the only way to find one is to keep looking for it.

Specific religions as we know them have nothing to do with this. Indeed, even
he said he had logically convinced himself there is no God. It doesn't all
have to be about God-in-a-book.

~~~
Tichy
What would it even mean? What if the purpose of life is to build as many
feeling entities as possible and kill them all at once in a slow and torturous
way, so as to maximize the amount of pain that can be dealt in a single
moment?

What I mean by that example: even if life had some purpose (for whom, set by
what?), why should it be a purpose you agree with? Why would some external
purpose override your own values?

~~~
zoba
If the purpose of life is to "build as many feeling entities..." then that is
what should be done. You see, it is the way that we arrive at our
understanding of the purpose that convinces us that it is right. By using the
scientific method we can feel confident that we have discovered truth. Science
provides us with evidence for why we should believe things and when we have
evidence we have two options: we can either be rational and change our beliefs
based on evidence, or be irrational and ignore the evidence. The type of
"purpose of life" that I'm talking about would only be discoverable by intense
scientific activity. It would be like the laws of physics: so undeniably true
that you'd be a fool to not believe them. That said, I think your postulated
"build as many feeling..." purpose of life is particularly unlikely. However,
because no one has ever seen the purpose of life before, we must be careful to
not rule out things prematurely, no matter how absurd they seem. I imagine
most people of Darwin's time were so set on the idea of creationism that
evolution was inconceivable, thankfully Darwin saw through that.

------
aaronthrowaway
I'd like to add that I went through something very similar, although on a
smaller scale. The prosecutor was charging me with ridiculous things, giving
me the option to plead guilty or go to trial and keep appealing until I went
broke, and ending up in jail on top of it.

When I read Aaron's story, I understood exactly how he felt. I felt like
killing myself so many times. The prosecutor destroyed my family, my
livelihood, my reputation, my life. And there was no "victim" either. I was
completely alone at the end of it.

I'm on year 2 of starting again, and I'm telling you it does get better. A lot
better.

I hope that Aaron's story sheds some light on the lack of empathy, and
straight up bullying the prosecutors employ against vulnerable people. They
went harder on me when they found out I lost my job. They are bullies, plain
and simple.

------
primespiral
I too am concerned about the Werther effect.

Traffic on reddits /r/SuicideWatch has exploded. [1]

[1]<http://stattit.com/r/SuicideWatch/>

------
mherdeg
Just as a heads-up, his last name is spelled "Swartz".

~~~
Pitarou
Argh! Thanks.

I also spelled my name wrong. I'm actually "Pitarou" rather than "Pitaroua".
Post in haste, repent at leisure.

------
jdefr89
I am currently suffering from a depressive episode. I am diagnosed
OCD/ADD/Motor tic disorder... I also am in recovery after an addiction to
oxycontin. I must say, reading the news was very sad, but at the same time, I
know why he did it. I CAN understand why someone would do that to themselves,
b/c I have considered it myself. But, I always remind myself that these
feelings are transient and I will have good days.. You can't take life so
seriously, you need to live and laugh regardless of who you are and how smart
you are. Like the force of gravity, depression knows no socioeconomic
boundaries -we are all susceptible to its effects.

------
guylhem
The "rationalist" approach that I use is to consider :

\- death is a final state

\- it always happens, sooner or later

\- there are ways to alleviate pain, whether physical or moral (drugs and
such)

\- suicide is a capital sin

Even if death seems or is a better option, it makes sense to wait for it (and
even to hope for it - there are really bad moments in anyone's life).

And if you do not believe in god, the first 3 items are good reason enough to
wait, and a valid 4th one can be :

\- suicide means killing perfectly good organs, than in other situations could
have save many people needing transplants.

Feelings and emotions are fallible, especially during depression, a disease of
our emotion-processing system.

~~~
javajosh
Here's another way for hackers to think of it:

\- Depression is a failing test suite.

E.g. it's a signal that there are bugs, and they need fixin'. What do you do
when this happens? Give up on the whole project? NO! You dig in, dig deeper,
and figure it out. Yes, it is a matter of ego, at least at first.

That's what meditation is for. I like <http://dhamma.org> but there's others.
It works.

------
pfortuny
Yes, this is quite difficult to convey and to explain but some times it seems
like you have to just stay on and believe that it will pass.

Because it will pass.

But the hard thing is to believe it and that is where help is needed, I would
say.

Thanks.

------
klrr
Somone sent me this when I asked about a programming problem, "The 0th step to
solve any problem is to make sure you really understand the problem statement.
If you are unable to understand what you read, seek help, you really need it."
It triggered suicidal thoughts and I've had many in the past but those times a
very kind person got me on better thoughts. But I don't want to waste his time
anymore, and I don't want these thoughts either. Is there anyway to stop them?

~~~
krenoten
It takes work. It's about listening to your pain and guiding your life away
from it. I can't emphasize that enough - pain is a profound teacher. It tells
you when you need to fix something. It takes work to understand pain, and then
to pursue its solution.

~~~
klrr
Well, the problem is that I don't have anything to be proud of. All things
I've really worked hard with I do without progression. I've tried to learn
programming, failed. I've tried to get abs, failed. I've tried to get
girlfriend, failed. And I still trying but now after years and years I feel so
worthless...

~~~
krenoten
Language is stronger than you imagine. When you tell yourself "I have failed
at X," you are telling yourself that it is no longer possible. You stop
trying, and your lower mind stops presenting you with ideas for how to proceed
or potential opportunities to pursue and learn from. Reframing is a powerful
technique, both when dealing with bad thoughts and with other people. Change
your internal language to something along the lines of "I have an incorrect
assumption about X that is preventing me from achieving it. It is worth it if
an experiment for achieving X doesn't work out, because it has a good chance
of yielding information that will help me get there eventually. I want X
because in learning how to achieve it, it will make me feel A, B, and C."

You are far from being able to say that you have failed at anything. You are
making ridiculous assumptions that bring you endless suffering for as long as
you hold them. So stop assuming so many things that both prevent you from
improving and make you feel helpless. You are feeling pain but you aren't
listening to the assumptions about reality that it is trying to educate you
about. The pain will continue and most likely become worse until you put in
the effort to understand it.

------
dave9999
Suicide Hotlines (USA): <http://suicidehotlines.com/national.html>

1-800-SUICIDE

1-800-273-TALK

Please if you are depressed or suicidal seek professional help.

------
misnome
It's a repeat of what others have said, but thanks again for posting this -
much of the comments in the other thread seemed to be.. unhelpful, if not
downright antagonistic.

------
navs
I'm currently going through CBT and on multiple meds. None seem to be working
and my uni life suffers, as does my work life. Having no social life and no
friends doesn't help. Yet I keep at it. Life is full of so many possibilities,
so many variables that I have yet to consider. I hope when next it comes time
for me to contemplate my existence, I can hold on to that hope for an unseen,
unspeculative future.

I'd also like to add one more thing Depression robs you of: Self worth.

------
throwaway438904
Good post, don't let any news affect your judgement of what you need to do in
life.

At the same time, the general attitude towards suicide makes me even more
uncomfortable being alive. I don't feel ill and it seems really condescending
to say that I haven't been in my right mind much in years. I find it really
consoling that some time I'll happen to die or get around to killing myself.

To me, suicide would bring immediate advantages. I'd never feel bad again. I'd
never be happy again too, but that doesn't bother me and I wish it wouldn't
bother you either. It's fine to say you feel uncomfortable with others killing
themselves and it's definitely important to consider that prior to committing
suicide, but please don't claim that not killing myself would benefit me.
Maybe you think that's an example of my inability to make considered
decisions/judgements. To me it just resembles any other moral or political
argument where calling either side mentally ill doesn't help.

Suicide is wrong, usually. It just affects the people around you way to much.
But for me and many other people it would also be really awesome.

------
tomd3v
Good post, but it is much more difficult to believe in "this will pass" when
you could be sentenced for 35 years.

~~~
Pitarou
Quite so. But I don't think he killed himself because he feared prison. I
think the fear of prison caused the depression, and the depression led him to
kill himself.

It may seem like I'm hair-splitting, but it's an important difference.

------
philippeback
What kept (and still keeps) me running: I don't want to let the suckers win. I
want to see the movie of my life for as long as possible, no matter how
wrecked that could be. And record yourself when you are okay. Play the movie
back to yourself when in the dumps. It helps.

~~~
Evbn
Watch out for "I used to be happy, those days are gone." you need to remember
the repeatable happiness, that you can look forward to.

Actually, you just need to trick yourself into committing to seeing or doing
something in the future, repeatedly.

~~~
philippeback
True. I'd add: stop thinking the brain doesn't need help. It may be linked to
a chemical imbalance. I have got to help my serotonin circuit or it will just
get bad. Diet is really having a huge effect on emotions as far as I am
involved. When I reached 40+, it went downhill and I needed serious
supplementation to keep up. Aaron has serious diet related challenges. It
didn't helped for sure.

------
paupino_masano
The main thing to realize is that it can be a long process but it WILL pass.
To be honest, I'm not sure when it disappeared from my every day life, but
after one of my therapy sessions I looked back at the last six months and
realized it had gone and I was actually happy. Previously, I had become
convinced that it would never leave me, and that it was just a part of who I
was. In fact, I was even at the time attached to it and didn't want it to
leave as I was convinced that it was where all my creativity came from.
Looking back I realize that it now only hindered it.

Things do get better - just make sure you get help as no one should do it
alone!

------
toyg
As somebody who flirted with depression before, I can assure you that what I'm
feeling now is _pure, unadulterated rage_.

The world was robbed of a genius by petty bureaucrats and greedy, hypocritical
"non-profit" profiteers. This is obscene.

------
genwin
> TL;DR If Swartz's death is triggering suicidal thoughts, you must understand
> that this will pass, and life will be worth living.

This is a common refrain but it won't always really pass. Our society is so
harsh at times (mainly due to you-know-who type of people), with the damaging
effects staying strong until death, that leaving can be a reasonable choice.
What I wish Aaron had done is left in a different way, perhaps to a country
with no extradition treaty with the US. There are few of those places left
however, as the US tightens its depraved grip on the whole world.

~~~
Pitarou
You misunderstand. I didn't say that the troubles would pass. I said that the
depression would pass, and that life would become worth living again.

------
mds_
I don't know. I've been coping with chronic depression for over a decade and
I'm absolutely sick of hearing "oh, you're still young. It _will_ get better".
Reading that just pushes me towards the edge.

Even if I was to be "cured" somehow—is living half a life of misery worth
living half an enjoyable life? Not to me. No amount of "happiness" can offset
the misery.

I know everyone means well but it might not have the intended effect. At least
not for me.

~~~
javajosh
You don't _know_ what will happen. That said, you're getting angry because
those words are dismissive of your current situation. You are being
invalidated.

Personally, the thing that gets me is when people say stuff like "God doesn't
give you a burden you can't bear." That's survivor bias if I've ever heard one
- the people who didn't survive the burden aren't really around to quibble,
are they!

Instead of telling you it'll get better, I'd tell you this: learn to stop
thinking. It sounds weird, but it's possible. It doesn't mean go catatonic, it
just means learning to recognize the thoughts that resonate with your
negativity, and moving your focus away from those. Technical detail: there are
actually two layers of thoughts, those that resonate, and then a deeper layer
that seeks that negative resonance. The default state of the human brain is
no-thought. If you can experience that for even a moment, you will feel
relief. Then you can see the old thoughts return, like an incoming tide, and
you can _choose_ to not focus on them. That's the key: those thoughts that
resonate so negatively, so strongly, require your focus to have power. If you
acquire control over your focus, then you have denied those thoughts power,
and you are free.

What you do with that freedom is a whole 'nother ball of wax. :)

Check out <http://dhamma.org> for some donation-based intensive meditation
training (called vippassana). It requires a tremendous amount of will. The
fact that you're still alive probably means that you have that will.

~~~
mds_
> You don't know what will happen.

You're right. But I do know life in general will always be difficult for me.
Say I knew for certain things would get better in 10 years. I don't if I could
wait that long.

> Instead of telling you it'll get better, I'd tell you this: learn to stop
> thinking. It sounds weird, but it's possible. It doesn't mean go catatonic,
> it just means learning to recognize the thoughts that resonate with your
> negativity, and moving your focus away from those. Technical detail: there
> are actually two layers of thoughts, those that resonate, and then a deeper
> layer that seeks that negative resonance. The default state of the human
> brain is no-thought. If you can experience that for even a moment, you will
> feel relief. Then you can see the old thoughts return, like an incoming
> tide, and you can choose to not focus on them. That's the key: those
> thoughts that resonate so negatively, so strongly, require your focus to
> have power. If you acquire control over your focus, then you have denied
> those thoughts power, and you are free.

Huh. So, I can _choose_ my thoughts and get out of this mess? Not sure if you
really believe that or trolling.

~~~
scheme23
I know hardly anything about formal meditation, or any formal theories on
managing depression for that matter, but I would submit that there is truth to
javajoshs' larger point, at least as I read it.

A big part of managing my mood is to do something like what he says. I don't
know if you can, with enough work, literally choose your thoughts---I
certainly still can't. But you do have some amount of control over your
attention, and you can train yourself to have more. You can learn to recognize
your negative thought patterns, to pick out when your thoughts are trash, and
to let those thoughts float away, rather than latching on to them. You can
learn not to focus on them and not to wallow in them for hours, days, or
weeks. Once you are more adept at letting these thoughts come in and out of
your conscious attention, you will find that there is again space for happier,
more constructive thoughts---latch on to these and they will multiply.

I still can't avoid the occasional storm, nor can I be sure that the full-
fledged, incapacitating, depression won't come back sometime, but I feel that
I have made great progress. I'm much happier than I was a year ago, or two
years ago. I think such a strategy could help a lot of people, and maybe you
too. It is, however, hardest to learn how to do this when you are in the midst
of a depression. Progress is slow, and requires the sort of effort that is
painfully difficult to muster, when you often can't even summon the
concentration to bathe or eat. You have to go one step at a time. You can't
put too many expectations on yourself, as painful as it is to accept that you
will lose even more time to your depression. You can't rush it. But, after a
bit, you will (I think---take all this with a IMO at the top) start to feel
like you are building up a resistance to your depressive thoughts, and the
momentum will pick up. One day you have a feeling, say of really-moving-
empathy, for the first time since you can remember. After a little more time,
you look back and realize you were more or less happy all week. Then maybe a
week turns into 6 months.

I understand your skepticism, but I urge you not to be so dismissive. Other
people have been through what you are going through, even though it doesn't
feel like it is possible. Those who have recovered probably don't fully
understand what led to their recovery (I don't), but they do bring back some
insights. Everyone on this thread is just trying to express those insights. We
can't say exactly what would work for you, or even fully express what we
experienced, but if you dig deeply enough, I think you will find a lot of
truth in much of the advice offered. I think there is a lot of truth in what
javajosh said. I guess your response just struck a chord with me, because it
sounds so much like me. I remember being dismissive of everything, because I
felt like I had tried everything, and I felt like no one really understood.
When people said anything like "You just need to choose to be happy", I
decided that they were just callous or obtuse. While some of them probably
were, I'm pretty sure some of them understood. It’s just that there is this
barrier--- in the same way it is hard, while you are depressed, to remember
being happy, it can be very hard, while you are happy, to remember how painful
it was to be depressed. Perhaps this barrier can be a goal?

Anyway, something in you does have to "decide" to get better, to learn to
manage the depression. I'm not sure "choice" or "decide" is the right way to
say it, but sometimes language is a blunt instrument. It's more like slowly
learning to commit yourself, in each moment, to attending to your thoughts.
It's like learning to guide or steer your mind, as well as you can with the
handles you can find, to a better place, all the while searching for more and
more handles. I hesitate to use words with negative connotations, but language
is a blunt instrument, so I'll say sometimes it even feels like manipulating
yourself, or conspiring against certain parts of yourself. In this process,
you have to accept that there will be many failures, and you have to practice
tenacity---learn to keep getting up (and then getting up gets easier!).

In the end, I don't know your personal struggles. Perhaps they really are far
more intense than mine. And I tried really hard not to sound dismissive of
you, myself. But, I really want to urge you, and anyone else who is really
down, to try to glean from what I, and others, have written. Try to tease out
what it is that we are trying to say. Please just give it a shot for a week or
two, instead of reflexively lashing out. I'm not trolling you, and I don't
think javajosh was either.

I wish you the best of luck with all I've got.

------
tbjohnston
Thank you for this post and helping to get the word out.

------
benatkin
Fortunately common suicide logic, which should be defeated whenever it comes
up, doesn't apply here. Aaron had extenuating circumstances. Those that are
shaken because you thought Aaron was too strong for this: you're probably
still right. There are plenty of smart people like Lawrence Lessig and Cory
Doctorow who have cited the very real threat of a long prison sentence as a
factor.

------
Chanoch
If all the encouragement isn't doing it for you, this one helped me: Your
death won''t stop the pain - you won't feel any (if you're lucky - there are
many more failed attempts than successful ones) but your family, your friends
will never recover. At least you can handle it - too many people don't
understand what it's like to live with the pain, think about them before you
go.

~~~
jrandomuser123
"Your death won''t stop the pain ... your family, your friends will never
recover"

This thought has stopped me from attempting suicide more times that I can
remember. Fortunately, the one time that I _did_ try was a failure, and the
reactions of my family were enough to make me vow to tough it out, no matter
what.

Aaron's family and friends have my sympathy. The truly creative lead troubled
lives, because they see what could be, not what is. He was truly creative, and
acted on his beliefs.

------
tekromancr
I have been trying really hard to fight my own depression for the last 5
years, and this news hit me at a particularly low point. I really want to
thank the OP for posting this and helping me derail some suicidal processes I
had running since discovering this. I really need help, but I am not in a
position to get it, so thank you for helping me live just a little bit longer.

~~~
Pitarou
That really means a lot to me. I hope you'll be in a position to "pay it
forward" some day.

:-)

------
pknerd
I think this is the stage where the religion or faith come to rescue. We in
life faces things where you find no _logical_ way out other than looking for
someone who we believe is superior than us. We surrender to that force and try
get calm as much as we can.

~~~
hilko
Possibly. I was deeply religious for most of my life, but that unraveled about
seven years ago.

I would love going back to that life. My father is a pastor, and he and the
Christianity and Christians I grew up with were the 'good' kind. If I were
gay, he'd be one of the first to know, for example.

The problem is that being a Christian without actually believing any of it is
1) difficult, if not impossible to keep up, and 2) less effective, perhaps
almost ineffective.

And I can't just 'will' myself to believe it, unfortunately...

------
buro9
Is it possible to have a rational discussion on suicide without it offending
someone's own will to live?

Is there a natural law that suicide breaches, is this why it upsets and
offends so many at the thought?

I'm personally of the deep belief that suicide is an option. And it's also
something I think of at times. I think of suicide when I'm up, when I'm
down... but generally never when I have a struggle and something to fight for.
I think of suicide semi-frequently and always have.

I view suicide as an option because I don't believe in afterlife, or that life
is a gift (from whom? we're supposed to be thankful how?)... life and personal
existence is a bizarre improbable thing, we are here but nothing follows and
nothing will remain of us in the grand scheme of things.

When you know life is fundamentally irrelevant, that we are but a speck of
dust... what's the difference between a span of 40 years and a span of 80
years?

I like to think that life should be qualitatively lived, struggles endured in
a constant hope of experiencing a high-quality of living.

Is there anything so deeply flawed with viewing my life as being mine to do
with as I please, and also acknowledging that if I come to some point that a
remainder of my life would be lived in misery that I might choose to exercise
a right over my life to end it on a qualitative high?

I don't find that these arguments differ greatly from those in terminal
illness (whom most would sympathise with), but like many things that are
unseen (mental illness, emotional state, state of happiness or sadness)... the
unseen seem to be accepted as being unreal, fixable, unacceptable.

Yet there are times that suicide can almost be thought of as noble. When a
lover dies and the lone lover pines so greatly and finds that they cannot
continue to have any quality of life without the other person.

I don't believe that I've ever been clinically depressed, and am a very
optimistic and hopeful person. Yet my reasoning isn't offended or appalled
when I see reports of suicide, and nor could I make a claim that I would never
consider it. It is, for me, part of living... as death is for everyone... and
as we ponder death beyond our control, I also ponder death within our control.

I find it hard to comprehend the reaction of others to stories of suicide that
seem to follow misconceptions about someone having to be depressed, or the
time of year... I don't think suicide is the product of a person with a fault
in some way, I find it to be a rational thing.

~~~
Pitarou
In the West, the vast majority of people who kill themselves do so as a direct
result of depression. Their perceptions distorted, and their decision-making
skills are impaired. If you find this "hard to comprehend", then perhaps you
should re-examine your assumptions.

~~~
buro9
The vast majority being 75% (
<http://www.csun.edu/~vmd53178/misconceptions.htm> )

Which still leaves a quarter of suicides by those not clinically depressed.
Hence my argument that generalising depression as the cause of suicide without
knowing the individuals involved is a gross generalisation that is in itself
offensive to the 25% who are not depressed.

I've known two people reasonably well who committed suicide. One was a family
member, the other a good friend. Neither was clinically depressed, or even
occasionally so.

Both had attempted to have rational discussions on it in the many months and
years before... hence my question: Why is it that we can't seem to have
rational discussions on suicide?

~~~
Pitarou
If you think there is a rational case for suicide, fine, but I really wish
you'd discuss it elsewhere. The purpose of my post was to nudge people who are
affected by __irrational __thoughts of suicide out of that state of mind. Pro-
suicide input (rational or not) is the last thing that such a person needs.

~~~
buro9
Organisations such as the Samaritans in the UK (which runs an emergency help
line to support those feeling suicidal) explicitly do not denounce or avoid
debate on suicide.

I haven't got a pro-suicide position, I have a rational position that accepts
suicide as an option. And in my life it's been an option I've considered at
times.

Yet, you would have people who have had suicidal thoughts think that they were
irrational, and that they must adopt an anti-suicide position.

The very best thing that anyone can do with those with suicidal thoughts is
listen. Not judge, not prevent the debate... and my point now very strongly
and bluntly made, is that people are fundamentally unwilling to listen, or
have any real debate.

------
rlambert
Thanks for posting this, Pitaroua. It is really well put and important stuff
for people to know.

== Ross ==

------
bestest
Kill oneself? Why the hell would I do THAT? Yes, humanity sucks. Yes, people
are swarms of mindless creatures. Yes, the law is not fair. Yes, politics
sucks. Yes, pollution is bad. Yes, children curse and get worse with each
generation. Yes, everything is more or less pointless. But I don't fucking
care. Life is too good to be being rid of.

And there still are chances I might once again would want to live on this
planet.

How I feel about Aaron's (or whoever's) death? I don't fucking care.
Seriously. Get over it. He accomplished as much as any other of us (don't ever
underestimate yourself) -- it's just very subjective. And he was weak enough
to kill himself. Don't think any person committing suicide is worth the praise
Aaron is getting.

The fact that HN's front page is full of links more or less related to Aaron's
death makes me sad and disappointed and not want to live on this planet
anymore.

~~~
mthoms
I can't tell if you're trolling or not but I'll bite.

If just to say that describing mental illness as "weakness" is abhorrent. You
wouldn't say someone with a malfunction of the kidneys, heart or lungs was
"weak" would you? Then why is it okay to say it about someone whose brain is
not functioning as it should? What's the difference?

------
hajrice
I'd also suggest anyone that has ever faced depression or currently is facing
it checks out this video: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGp25fn25Cs>

------
DivisibleByZero
Thank you for this.

Depression at any level is very real and very serious. Most people will tell
you to talk to friends and family. You will be alone, it will be hard; but
most importantly, you will be OK. It does get better.

------
lisper
[http://blog.rongarret.info/2011/11/it-gets-better-geek-
versi...](http://blog.rongarret.info/2011/11/it-gets-better-geek-version.html)

~~~
danielweber
I wonder if Swartz ever had to deal with that as a kid. He was well-regarded
within the tech community before he was a teenager. Maybe he skipped the
awkward depressing phase most of us went through and landed straight in
success. So new adversity was very uncomfortable for him.

Argh. I hate this. I disagreed with him on so much but I wish he were still
alive to argue with. :(

------
Selfcommit
This Kid, and he was still a kid, accomplished more and ended his life in less
time than I've been alive. Both a motivator, and a tragedy.

Remember Happiness.

------
specto
It is good to know there are others with my thoughts. Sometimes I feel like
it's only others that keep me going. Nothing about myself.

------
orionblastar
Life has been shitty to me. I've attempted suicide about 13 times and failed.
I decided not to attempt suicide anymore as my survival meant the universe
(even God) didn't want me dead yet and there is more to learn and more to do
in life for me.

Since a young age I've been bullied and abused by my peers (if you can call
them peers, children can be mean and so can adults) and it drove me into a
depression. I vowed I would not become like the bullies, and took a stand of
non-violent citing that "Might does not make right" and after being beaten up
for a while for not fighting back I took up martial arts to defend myself. I
learned how to avoid fights and how to defend myself without seriously harming
the other person.

Eventually I got into computers, when every other teenager was out getting
drunk or stoned, I was writing programs on a Commodore 64 (The only computer
my father could afford for me and my two brothers, and I got laughed at for
not being able to afford an IBM PC or Apple //) and kept track of my brother's
baseball statistics for one of my first programs (saved to a Datasette
cassette drive, before we could afford a 1541 Floppy Drive) and I wrote other
programs in BASIC as well.

Before I left for a university with record ACT scores, so I didn't need to
take the SAT to get in (Combined ACT and SAT scores were required and my ACT
score along was high enough) my father bought me a Commodore Amiga 1000 with
the 5.25" external floppy drive and the PC-Transformer software (to run MS-DOS
programs) and a 1200 baud modem. I joined a fraternity and half the guys were
nice and the other half just hazed me and bullied me and harassed me and
finally I took up under-aged drinking and smoking cigars. I feared what I was
becoming as I developed a hubris that I knew everything (it was the alcohol
talking) and so I left to take up college elsewhere.

I went to a college earned a degree, worked in their computer labs and helped
out students. It was nice, but not ideal.

When I was working I was always picked on and bullied and harassed by managers
and other employees. No matter what job I had, I was always given more work to
force me to quit, etc.

I had a job as a programmer, big salary lots of benefits, I did really good
work but was bullied, harassed, and abused, and management did some of it as
did other employees. Finally from the stress of a toxic work environment I
developed schizoaffective disorder. After that I was on short-term disability
and when I came back I was fired two weeks later for having a panic attack at
work because they moved me to an open area near foot traffic and a book shelf
and people walked by and mocked me and laughed at me.

Any job after that I was just hired to take them to the next level and reach
goals, and after that fired. I was mocked, abused, and harassed and bulled at
those jobs too.

Eventually I ended up on disability, too sick to work.

I am doing my best to get better and try to get back to work. I am working on
some ebooks and trying to write programs again, but due to the emotional,
psychological, physical, traumas I developed writer's block, so my work goes
slow.

I was able to finally clear the negative thoughts out enough to write a
Fibonacci Sequence in ANSI C on GCC under Ubuntu 12.10, I wrote psuedocode in
a paper notebook and ran the code in my head and wrote the variables down on
paper to debug it. Then I wrote it in under 15 minutes on Ubuntu. It isn't
much, but at least I was able to do something. That much is worth living for.

I have a wife and son, so I live for them as well.

------
azizali
Well said, and thank you for posting this. Really

------
amyyyyyyyyyy
I'm going to put my thoughts down here.

The sections will be: Work Escorting and sexuality Drug and alcohol addiction
Family Attention What I want The plan

WORK

I work as a software engineer. Well, I would, if I was able to hold a job for
more than 6 months without the company getting tired of me. I'm good at what I
do. My bosses love my output. I have open source projects and contributions.
Even on my first programming job at a startup at 18, the CTO was shocked on my
first day. Repeat that shock for every job. But the companies get tired of me
because I have a reputation for coming in to work straight from nightclubs,
drunk, drugged up, tired, needing to snort coke at work just to stay awake and
productive.

ESCORTING AND SEXUALITY

As said above, I can't hold down permanent work. One nice thing I have going
for me is that I'm a young, pretty good looking girl. I don't look my age. I
look 15. Men love that. They get off on me being their little girl and them
being my daddy who want to fuck their little hot teenage daughter. The sex is
boring for me. I like girls. I went through a long period of not knowing if
I'm straight, lesbian, or bisexual. I think I like men but only in the sense
of having a "daddy". I have a real birth dad of course, but I want a "daddy" -
that older guy who looks after me, loves me, helps me get through my early
twenties, gives me advice. I suppose this is what people call "having daddy
issues".

Escorting can go really wrong. Sometimes clients beat the shit out of their
hookers. It's only happened to me once, thankfully. I got tied up in a dark
room and beaten and whipped. On the positive side, getting beat up escorting
builds character. It makes you really, really strong. I can take a ton of
abuse from other people (but not in my own head).

DRUG AND ALCOHOL ADDICTION

It's debatable whether I'm a coke addict. I don't desperately need it, but I
want to use it. Thanks to being a hooker, I get lots of easy and free access
to cocaine. I use 2-3 times a week.

Alcohol is what will destory me. I used to be a teetotal, innocent, quiet, shy
teen. Now I'm an alcoholic, confident, loud party-girl with an arrest record
of "Drunk and Disorderly", "Drunk and Disorderly", "Drunk and Disorderly". I
love vodka. I need vodka. I have two bottles in my fridge right now that I'm
going to start pouring once I finish this letter. I'm having a quiet night in
(been out 4 nights in a row now) so will drink myself to sleep.

FAMILY

They hate me for reasons I won't go into.

Shit, this is the hardest bit to write. I've been typing non-stop for 10
minutes and now I'm unsure what to say and hesitating.

My mum... she doesn't want me anymore. I know she doesn't, even if she says
she loves me. She never shows appreciation to anybody for anything. My dad
worked hard to provide for my sister and I (because my mum hasn't worked in
decades, lazy bitch). My first memory of my dad was when he took me to a party
that his workplace threw for the children. I was the shy one who was too
scared to talk to anyone. He eventually dragged me out and into the car and
shouted at me. I was a fucking disappointment, obviously not (yet) the
outgoing loud confident child everyone would prefer. I wish they had just got
a divorce instead of the constant arguing they've had since before I was born.
I was desperate to move away from home because I couldn't take their arguing
anymore. Now when people argue in public it still upsets me.

ATTENTION

It makes me happy. It didn't used to, because I was such an awkward kid and
teenager. But now I fucking love being the center of the dance floor; the one
up on the stage; the naked girl; the one guys talk to in clubs and pubs.

I was at a gangbang last night. I was there through an escorting contact. I
was the first person to get naked and fuck. And then I just didn't put my
clothes back on. Walking around nude and having the men look and me and wank
at me was what I wanted -- attention. I wanted to fuck the other girl, though.

WHAT I WANT

A secure job. A better flat (my current place is a tiny studio). Not having to
suck dick to afford things. Not having alcohol withdrawal symptoms after just
48 hours sober. A family.

THE PLAN

Obviously, because this is a suicide note, the plan is suicide. The question
is "when" and "is there anything I want to do first?". Suicide has been the
plan for as long as I can remember.

My first genuine suicide plan was two years ago. I was going to travel South
East Asia, spend all my savings having fun and fucking hookers (haha, but I've
become one! twist!!). And then die. That didn't get executed - instead I ran
away to another place and just did nothing.

Like I said in the "Attention" section, I enjoy that and it makes me happy. So
maybe I should just seek that out. I was reading a story earlier -
<http://longform.org/stories/little-girl-lost> \- go read it, it's good - and
this story is about a girl who ran away to Los Angeles to seek out fame. She
got the fame. She became one of the biggest porn stars of her era. Then she
shot herself in the head at 2am.

Another thing I read earlier -
[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/magazine/here-is-what-
happ...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/magazine/here-is-what-happens-when-
you-cast-lindsay-lohan-in-your-movie.html) \- about Lindsay Lohan. She still
gets acting gigs despite being a crazy bitch.

If they can do it, why can't I? I could run away to LA, Hollywood, whatever.
I'd have a go at trying. I would be homeless but I have enough saving to last
a year. If it doesn't work out, I can end it all. Finally end it all. It would
be a relief from my stress and problems and this suicidal voice in my head
that's taunted me for my whole life - which is ironic because I wouldn't get
to feel the relief, because I'd be dead.

~~~
rdl
Yeah, it doesn't sound like your life is that horrible objectively, and could
easily improve. It sounds sound objectively empty, and you could easily be
depressed in addition to that, but "empty" isn't the worst thing in the world,
and isn't permanent, unlike death.

Why not just contract (so the 6mo thing isn't a problem), and ramp down the
coke/liquor. Other than that, it sounds like things will get better with time,
just a few years. Also it sounds like you're in the UK or Europe; GTFO and
move to the US or something.

Hollywood or LA is a bad idea; SF or NYC if you want to be a SW engineer
(which will probably make you happier and more fulfilled than being Lindsay
Lohan).

~~~
amyyyyyyyyyy
"ramp down the coke/liquor"

It's not that easy. Tried to quit before and I can't last more than 48 hours
without hallucinating.

"SF or NYC if you want to be a SW engineer"

Would love to move to SF, but like you guessed I'm in the UK (London). Getting
a visa is very difficult.

~~~
rdl
I didn't say cut it out -- just ramp down. Lower quantity, and do alcohol/coke
in "boring" ways, like medicine, vs. associating them with fun stuff. Or,
replace with somewhat less destructive drugs (alcohol abuse is way worse than
coke, IMO, except that coke is illegal)

Do visa waiver for 3 months, and work for cash/informally, or as a contractor.
I'm sure you can figure out a way to stay past that. (if a company really
likes you, they could help) Or, Vancouver, BC is probably adequate. If you're
otherwise going to kill yourself, I don't think pushing the limits on a visa
is a big deal.

The other thing would be get into a US university. If you can't get into a
top-tier school, go to an ok school in an interesting location (I'm not sure
how they do foreign students, but even something like Foothill College in the
Bay Area would get you near a bunch of startups).

------
zemanel
in the end, it's a good thing hope's a double-edged sword

------
waynesutton
Thanks for posting!

------
hekker
Beware, there are no respawn points in RL.

~~~
polarix
Incorrect; witness every uterus on earth.

