
Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work - ytNumbers
https://www.yahoo.com/style/interns-get-fired-en-masse-after-protesting-dress-201632030.html
======
greenyoda
Previous discussions:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12020506](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12020506)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12001730](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12001730)

------
anu7df
Is there possibly more to this story? As it stands it looks like the interns
made a polite request and fired for it. I understand the "intern is a guest"
argument, but he/she is also a future employee playing that part and would
like to be treated as such. If any polite request is countered by firing I
can't imagine that will be a good place to work.

~~~
cddotdotslash
A polite request is asking their respective managers about the dress code and
whether it can be relaxed. Creating a petition, circling it among the entire
intern group, and essentially demanding change at a place that was generous
enough to hire them for a learning experience is not a polite request.

I interned at four separate companies when I was younger. I would have never
even conceived the idea of doing something like this. Besides the fact that
it's three months (seriously, they couldn't wear dress clothes for three
months?), a company is not a democracy. I think this might be a side effect of
my generation being told they can change anything they want in the world just
by signing a petition.

~~~
raverbashing
> demanding change at a place that was generous enough to hire them for a
> learning experience

Oh what a load of crap

Generous? Companies use interns for cheap labour (sometimes free). There's
nothing generous from their part

~~~
cddotdotslash
Perhaps you interned at the wrong places, but every internship I've had not
only paid me well, but also taught me more real-world skills than I learned
during my four-year degree. The world is not black and white; just because
some companies use interns as cheap labor doesn't mean that's always the case.

~~~
ethanbond
To be fair, a place that fires interns for writing a petition about a dress
code probably falls squarely in the camp of "exploiting cheap/free labor"
rather than "well paying and educational career opportunity" camp.

------
daly
Mad Men: I worked at IBM Office Products Division Headquarters in the 1970s.
Dress code was full suit with a white shirt. I was a systems programmer on the
IBM 360 Mainframe. One day I walked from my office, into the hall, to the
print room 2 doors away without my suit jacket. I got "written up" (a very bad
thing).

In those days even IBM Field Service Engineers who repaired Selectric
Typewriters wore suits. Their shoes were so well shined you could see your
face in them.

These days I work from home. Sometimes I walk the hall to the cafeteria (the
kitchen) without my suit jacket. I expect to be written up sometime soon.

Here's a clue a very senior manager (Ralph Gomory, IBM Research Division
President) once gave me...

Managers make decisions. Only go to management with your need for a decision
and always present the options.

They went to management with what was, in essence, a complaint. Worse, it was
a complaint that had nothing to do with the business. Clearly they were not
keeping the business uppermost in their priority queue. So management made a
business decision and fixed the problem.

We had a "mass revolt" among the systems programmers across all of the IBM
internal sites. We would only get "upgraded processors" after the customer
returned an old one. We were working on trailing edge equipment. Unfortunately
our internal memos (the "Tandem Memos") got leaked to Computer World (the big
newspaper of the day). I got called "on the carpet" by senior management. I
expected to be fired.

Fortunately IBM Corporate management saw that we were complaining about the
business, not about personal issues. They changed the policy and we got
leading edge equipment.

Mass protests sometimes work but they need to focus on improving the business.
Unless you're in the fashion business it is hard to see how dress code
protests matter.

~~~
raverbashing
> Unless you're in the fashion business it is hard to see how dress code
> protests matter.

Of course it doesn't have anything to do with the business

But some companies will see their good employes leave, old employees retire
and then won't find out why they can't compete and can only retain the worse
professionals.

~~~
daly
I am unable to make payroll this month. The problem on my desk is how to
either increase revenue or reduce expense. Banks don't loan money these days
(try it) and they especially don't loan money to cover operating expenses.

You wander into my office with a "petition" signed by some employees stating
that the "Free coffee needs a better quality bean" or "We want to wear jeans
to work".

It looks to me that you've just solved both of my problems.

A few less employees who fail to focus on improving the business will help me
reduce expenses and make payroll. It also gives me some spare cash to buy
better quality coffee. Both problems solved by self-selection.

People seem to think that "being a good culture fit" is a new idea. But IBM
used to "write up" employees who failed the dress code as "not a good culture
fit". If the company wants polo shirts, wear polo shirts. If the company wants
suits, wear suits.

Running a company is hard. Your suppliers demand immediate payment. Your
retailers demand volume discounts. Your sales people want "promotion
specials". Your landlord wants more money. Your employees demand "competitive
wages". Your competition announced a new product. Your major customer
threatened to quit.... And YOU want to argue about dress code? Will all those
who don't focus on improving the business please step forward.

~~~
raverbashing
You are right about culture fit.

And yes, running a company is hard.

If you're so strapped of cash why are you wasting money enforcing a dress code
(unless necessary)? Will that increase revenue or cut cost?

> And YOU want to argue about dress code?

I would probably be fuming as well if I got a complaint unrelated to the core
business. But guess what, your employees are not robots. Sure, it's not
inhumane to demand a dress code or the fact that the free coffee sucks. But it
will make them think twice if another opportunity shows up and the first to
move are usually the ones with more skills.

Do you know who was fired for being a poor culture fit? John Lasseter

~~~
daly
IBM enforced a dress code as part of the company image of quality. Quality
wasn't just a word, it was a culture. IBM's management had to go to "manager's
school" and were sought after because everyone knew IBM invested time and
money to train their managers and their employees. IBM's reputation for
quality was so good people USED to say "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM".

IBM "enforced" a lot of things beyond dress code. I got called on the carpet
for answering a question at a conference because I was not an IBM official
spokesperson. Everything (including dress) about the company mattered.

If you want a company image then dress code matters. FedEx people who drive
trucks still wear uniforms. Airline pilots wear uniforms. Losing the company
image loses a reason to work for the company. IBM today is run by people who
forgot that. It seems to me that IBM will go out of business shortly based on
that loss of "cachet".

IBM repair people wearing suits sent the message that IBM CARED about
business, about perception, about quality. It showed they pay attention to
their front-line workforce. It transmits the idea that this person is well-
trained, not picked out of a lineup. IBM invested in that training (something
most companies don't do anymore).

IBM people never complained that they felt like robots. They were universally
proud to work for the company. IBM didn't fire, they retrained. (Not anymore,
though. And you can see it on the IBM postings.) IBM people cared about
quality. If something was wrong they worked to make it right and they were
backed by management, even if it really wasn't IBM's fault. Robots, no.
Workers who were proud of and cared for the company, yes.

Few companies seem to train employees, seem to care about quality, seem to
care about a dress code as a corporate image. Starbucks seems to be "the new
IBM" on those terms. They only recently allowed "visible tattoos".

I have "skills". The only thing that will make me want to move is a more
"interesting" problem. If you show up with an interesting problem I'll wear
Saran Wrap or anything else you want to work, dress code be damned.

~~~
raverbashing
Good comment

> IBM people never complained that they felt like robots.

I think this is a mix of the cultural context of that era (where people
dressed more formally) and the other items you mentioned, especially the dress
code being part of their image

But then IBM got "old", other companies did other interesting things and
stopped caring for formality and that's where we are today

------
jrowley
I got a job recently that requires business formal dress code. It's was a
little frustrating until I read somewhere that by wearing dress clothes your
are allowing yourself to kind of be branded by the company and in that way I
appreciated it because it allows me to partition my identity into work and
nonwork. Part of me still thinks I'd be more productive and happier in my
normal street clothes though.

~~~
yesiamyourdad
My first couple jobs required dress pants, a long sleeve button down shirt,
and a tie. Back then "casual friday" was a real thing, you could wear a polo
and khakis. These days unless you're an attorney or in finance, nobody wears a
suit.

I work at a place that has a dress code that harks back to the early 90s.
After spending my 20's griping about dress codes, I actually enjoy it for the
same reason: it's a physical reminder of my work identity vs my non-work
identity.

I'm curious - how would you be more productive in casual wear? As an engineer,
my main gripe was that I often worked in a lab and my tie and slacks would get
snagged on the edges of the computer racks. Mostly that was an issue with
ruining clothing. At the time, I remember the woman who worked full time
running the lab was granted an exception to the dress code for that reason -
she was constantly snagging clothing and ruining things from having to crawl
around on the floor running cables and things, so they let her wear jeans and
more generally rugged clothing.

~~~
raverbashing
> I'm curious - how would you be more productive in casual wear?

Usually by taking less time to dress up and having better thermal comfort
(especially in places that don't have air conditioning - yes, these exist)

------
heptathorp
How is this newsworthy? Some company (not named) fired some interns? Oh I see,
this is an excuse to have yet another commentary about how millennials are so
self-entitled.

~~~
ethanbond
Yeah I'm pretty shocked this is high as it is. I'm skeptical, especially with
the "a female veteran who lost her leg."

Almost like the "and that boy was Albert Einstein."

------
Houshalter
According to the article they didn't even disobey the dress code, or cause any
real commotion. They just sent a letter just asking for a rule to be changed
slightly for practical reasons.

Is it really ethical to fire an entire group of people for merely questioning
a rule? Is this really evidence they are "entitled" as comments here are
saying? Perhaps the letter was worded very rudely?

~~~
masklinn
> Is it really ethical to fire an entire group of people for merely
> questioning a rule?

Corporate America doesn't concern itself with ethics. Interns sending a common
proposal (however polite) up the management chain is one step removed from
unionisation, which is one thing Corporate America will shut down sites or
states over.

~~~
StavrosK
You've gotten downvoted because of the tone of your comment, but I think the
argument you're making is sound. The US work culture is very much against
employees' rights, and expressing yourself is a right. They didn't stop
working, they didn't harm anything, they just sent a letter that said "hey,
these 10 people want X" and they got fired over it.

------
analog31
Anecdote: When I was an intern in the 80s, at a large mainframe computer
facility, there was no dress code. But at that time, there was a widespread
rumor that people who dressed better, were treated better. I got a couple
pairs of polyester pants and some button down shirts at a discount store. The
other interns wore jeans, tee shirts, and sneakers.

Sure enough, I was treated better. While the other interns were crawling
around pulling cables, I got to sit at a desk and program a computer.

Wearing business attire also got me better treatment when I needed it, such as
dealing with some bureaucracy, or even retailers.

I'd be interested in knowing if this was still the case. If it's important
enough to be fired for, I'd spend a few more bucks and dress nicer, as an
investment, especially around performance review time.

------
projectramo
I really want to know what the field is and what the internship was.

Not sure why - maybe other HN commentators can help - but my attitude would
not be the same if they were bankers, coders or meat packers.

Maybe because there are social expectations of what people wear for certain
jobs.

------
enkitosh
I'm really surprised how many people in the comment section of this article
defend the facist acts of this company. As if controlling how you dress is not
a big deal, it's actually a very big deal. "Welcome to the real world kid",
indicating this is somewhat a childish behaviour. Well if this is the real
world it needs to be told that this is not acceptable.

So I'm a programmer and a transvestite meaning that yes I like to wear what is
considered to be women's clothing. Basically I just like to wear whatever I
like and makes me feel comfortable whether it was designed to be used by men
or women. Most days I'm lazy in the morning so I put on very casual clothing
but I decided that every Monday I would wear something extreme so I wear
dresses, colourful skirts, stockings, whatever. I wanted to do this because of
two reasons. First off Mondays can be very grey and boring. People return from
their weekend holiday and generally feel a bit depressed having to start this
weekly routine again. The other reason and the most important one is that we
are to be accepted whatever we choose to wear. If a person cannot accept what
I wear it's really their problem not mine. The company I work for is very
flexible and open minded about these sort of things but if anyone would tell
me to stop doing this I would quit immediately, no questions asked.

The company that you work for does not own you. Your boss is not your parent
why should he/she get to limit your freedom of expression by telling you what
to wear? Especially if you do not have to deal with customers (of course I
understand that companies can have rules when their employees are facing
customers that's a totally different story).

I don't know how your jobs are but I feel in mine I generally contribute a lot
of time, effort and talent to it. A progress made in something I contribute to
does not just happen because the company planned it. I can accept that I stay
on the same wages while people higher in the hierarchy benefit greatly from
something I achieved. That's just how companies work and I get paid well, I'm
not complaining. However I will never accept someone trying to have affect on
my appearance, not even as an intern. Sure interns have to prove that they are
fit for the job but that goes for the work they provide, has nothing to do
with what they wear.

And this has nothing to do with millennials or how they are self entitled.
This is about basic human rights of all generations. Companies get 9 hours of
our daily lives they shouldn't also get to choose what's in our wardrobe.

~~~
dogma1138
Fascist? really, have you ever lived under fascism or dictatorship?

This is welcome to the real world kid, infact this should never have happened
I don't understand how would anyone over 12 would think that a petition at
your workplace could or should work.

You don't know what circumstances was she working at, you don't know why they
were ordered to wear dress clothes (uniforms are pretty damn good for
instilling discipline). Now I understand you situation and you also need to
understand that not everyone has to be accepting of your situation including
your employer this is perfectly acceptable without being discriminatory. You
work as a programmer which means that you can wear pretty much what you want
as long as you do not meet business clients or customers but not everyone else
is in the same position as you. Some employees end up handling people, some of
them just end up being in sight of customers, I don't care what you wear when
you code something in a cubicle, but I don't want the worker in a funeral home
wearing some crap, or my lawyer in a courtroom.

And you are right the company you work for does not own you, but the same goes
the other way, it does not owe you anything either. It provides you with an
environment in which you can trade your time for pay under a set of agreed
circumstances if you do not agree to follow those guidelines you can find
another place that allows you to trade your time for money under more
palatable or acceptable terms.

So yes this has everything to do with "millennials" or well considering that I
am one, entitlement and more like it than not way too many years of pampering
by her parents and the educational system that had it's balance of power
turned upside down that led her to believe she can just do everything if she
signs a petition no matter how passive aggressive her behaviour is in reality.

But overall good for you for not accepting anyone to have an effect on your
appearance but with all due respect that's your personal choice you can't
claim it to be more important than the company you might work for one day
wanting to present a specific image of it's employees that conflicts with your
own personal dress code. At that moment you'll have a choice how much does
your external look and what you wear affect who you actually are, if they are
that big part of your life that you can't simply change it well then you are
at an impasse but please don't make it to be that you somehow are better than
a company that has a dress code when you have one too.

~~~
enkitosh
Did you even read my comment? I said "Especially if you do not have to deal
with customers (of course I understand that companies can have rules when
their employees are facing customers that's a totally different story)"

And I mean that, it is a totally different story. If employees have to face
customers then it's up to the company to decide what kind of image they want
to display. The interns in thin case were not working with customers directly.

"you can't claim it to be more important than the company you might work for
one day wanting to present a specific image of it's employees that conflicts
with your own personal dress code"

Yes I can, and I do. If I'm not working with customers directly the company
should have no impact on my appearance. And this isn't about me thinking I'm
better than the company, this is about mutual respect. I show my company
respect by showing up to work each day and providing the work expected of me.

And if you really want to make this about millennials then yeah millennials
are just realising how much bullshit things such as a dress code at work is. I
said fascist because the suppression of expression is a fascist tendency.

~~~
dogma1138
The fact that you can equate dress code to fascism just show how out of touch
with reality you are. A business has every right to mandate a dress code you
have the right not to want to work for an employer who does, but it does not
mean that employer somehow hurts your freedom. Like it or not dress codes and
uniforms do have positive effects they also have some negative effects but the
same goes for casual dress code.

And yes I have read your comment but it doesn't matter, your job description
doesn't have to be customer facing to mandate a dress code, the image of the
office especially if there is high foot traffic in it might be important to
your employer, the ability to drag employees at will to meetings, pre-sale,
video-confs etc which might include external people without needing to worry
about what stupid shirt they might wear today is also a good enough reason and
overall having an environment where everyone can pick fairly cheap office
work/business attire without having to worry about what they wear also makes
it comfortable for a lot of people.

Oddly enough the looser dress codes usually go against the direct benefits to
employees they are a tool just like the beer fridge, ping pong table and video
games room that companies use to remove the gap between your personal life and
your work life, they want you to feel that the workplace is an extension of
yourself and home is where your bed is when you aren't sleeping in one of the
nice sleeping rooms at your work.

Work cloths on the other hand allow you to easily switch between work and your
personal life, you put a suit in the morning you go to work, you take it off
and boom you are in your saggy tshirt that says I'm with stupid doing whatever
you want. So if you are against the workplace invading into your personal
space during off work hours you might want to actually rethink what brining
your own personal life into your workplace does and why some employers
especially in tech encourage that.

------
shaftoe
Where do they work that still has a strict dress code?

Maybe I'm just in the tech industry bubble, but this seems extraordinarily
strange for interns, who likely weren't external sales or consultants or one
of the few holdovers where suits and sport coats are still a thing.

~~~
imglorp
Financial, banking. East coast.

------
SFJulie
Hum Short sleeves and shorts have a positive impact on ecology and money
savings.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Biz_campaign](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Biz_campaign)

I mean concerned citizens are hammered between increasingly enforced orders of
being a good citizens (that don't pollute or be honest), while companies may
make them do stuff that makes them bad citizens (pollution or tax frauds).

And the more a citizen does not comply with either one or the other role he
gets more and more hammered down.

This world is crazy.

~~~
throwanem
> Short sleeves and shorts have a positive impact on ecology and money savings

Yeah - short sleeves, short pants, and a mandated indoor temperature over
eighty degrees Fahrenheit. Talk about enforced good citizenship!

------
havella
The key here is signaling. The interns showed that either they don't
understand the game or that the have an 'union' like attitude towards
employment. Either way not atractive for an employer.

~~~
dleslie
And the employer made themselves unattractive to a socially-connected group.

------
dingo_bat
I think they shouldn't have complained about something that everyone was
following, and a formal code is not very uncommon. I also think that firing
everyone point blank just because they wrote a letter is an extreme
overreaction. They could have been lectured on professional behavior instead
and I'm sure most of them would have understood.

~~~
masklinn
> I think they shouldn't have complained about something that everyone was
> following

> they weren’t going to complain. That is, “until I noticed one of the workers
> always wore flat shoes that were made from a fabric other than leather, or
> running shoes, even though both of these things were contrary to the dress
> code.”

The interns were told that was a medical exemption… after they were mass-
fired, but not when they initially inquired about the possibility of relaxed
dress code:

> I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code
> and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed
> to do it.

> They could have been lectured on professional behavior instead and I'm sure
> most of them would have understood.

I don't understand how sending queries/proposals up the chain is
unprofessional behaviour. Ignoring the dress code and coming in not following
it would be unprofessional behaviour.

They asked informally, they got shut down (rather than answered), they went
with a more formal query, they were fired.

That's sounds nothing like "interns are guests" but it sounds a lot like
Corporate America's reaction to union noises.

~~~
yesiamyourdad
This is basically an article reporting on an advice column, so it's pretty
light on details. Given that the incident was framed as a protest, I'd say
that there was likely more to it than simply writing a letter. It could be
that the letter took a disrespectful tone, or it could be that they backed up
the letter with some kind of protest action. Or maybe the employer is just a
douchey company. You can't really tell.

Personally I can't imagine a story like this even occurring in 1986. The whole
idea of mass protest over something trivial is a very 21st century concept.

~~~
masklinn
> Given that the incident was framed as a protest

The yahoo repost/clickbait framed it as a protest with no evidence I can see,
the original source does not frame it as a protest:
[http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-
inter...](http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-internship-
for-writing-a-proposal-for-a-more-flexible-dress-code.html)

------
throwanem
I've never understood the mindset in which something as trivial as what you
wear to work actually seems like a big deal.

~~~
olau
Can't remember if it's Seven Day Weekend or Peopleware were they talk about
the furniture police. I don't understand it either. I think some people find
it threatening that the employees are actually human, silly as it sounds.

~~~
throwanem
Sorry, I think you've got the wrong end. What confuses me is that being
expected to dress like a grownup is something a lot of people apparently find
galling enough to get up in arms about.

------
ryan_mass18
This story made me so happy. I am so sick and tired of the coddled very vocal
minority that is taking over our colleges, so I say we all stand up and give
these managers a standing ovation. Thank you ladies and gentleman I am so
proud of fellow working Americans like me.

------
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magoon
Unrelated, but Yahoo may be desperate for page views if they're auto-
refreshing several times while I'm trying to read the article.

------
ohnomrbill
I would fire them too, with these reasons:

1\. The interns saw a dress code violation and escalated immediately, without
informing the out-of-line employee.

From the original blog post [0]:

"I felt the dress code was overly strict but I wasn’t going to say anything,
until I noticed one of the workers always wore flat shoes that were made from
a fabric other than leather, or running shoes, even though both of these
things were contrary to the dress code.

I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code
and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to
do it."

I'm certain the interns did not ask this coworker why they came in wearing
non-standard shoes, because management had to tell them about the disability
after the fact. Going directly to management to censure a coworker without
discussing the issue with the coworker is sometimes justified. Minor dress
code violations are not an instance where that behavior is justified. If this
isn't apparent to the interns, that raises questions about their judgment.

2\. The interns persisted in making it an issue after the first rejection.

Again, there are some workplace situations where it is appropriate to keep
raising an issue after your first proposal is rejected. Minor dress code
violations are not one of those situations. Again, from the blog post:

"I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code
and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to
do it. I soon found out that many of the other interns felt the same way, and
the ones who asked their managers about it were told the same thing as me. We
decided to write a proposal stating why we should be allowed someone leeway
under the dress code."

The proposal which led to their termination was not the first discussion of
the issue. They asked, management considered their request and came to a
decision. They then took more time (presumably out of the workday, though this
is not clear) to write a petition restating the request. Continuing to focus
on a very minor issue at the expense of more important things is another
strike against their judgment.

3\. The interns asked for much more leeway than the original infraction.

The coworker who inspired their petition wore non-standard shoes, hardly a
large violation of the dress code. In response, "[The interns] requested that
we also be allowed to wear running shoes and non leather flats, as well as
sandals (not flip-flops though) and other non-dress shoes that would fit under
a more business casual dress code. It was mostly about the footwear, but we
also incorporated a request that we not have to wear suits and/or blazers in
favor of a more casual, but still professional dress code."

Seeing one employee wearing non-standard shoes is not an endorsement of a
less-stringent dress code by management. It is odd that they take the dress
code so seriously, yet take the example of one employee not wearing leather
shoes as a sign that the dress code can be relaxed to exclude suits. That
hypocrisy on the part of the interns is at least as bad as any perceived
hypocrisy on the part of management.

All of these lapses in judgment are bad enough to warrant censure. If an
employee did this, counseling would be in order. But interns are explicitly
not full-time, salaried employees - it is a trial run. (I don't take Alison
Green's view that they are guests, but they aren't full employees either.) If
the company's goal in having internships is to evaluate potential employees,
then a lapse in judgment like this might mean that the company's interest is
to let them go before the official end date.

[0] [http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-
inter...](http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-internship-
for-writing-a-proposal-for-a-more-flexible-dress-code.html)

------
awt
Proto SJWs.

