
‘If I disappear’: Chinese students make farewell messages amid crackdowns - abc-xyz
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/if-i-disappear-chinese-students-make-farewell-messages-amid-crackdowns-over-labor-activism-/2019/05/25/6fc949c0-727d-11e9-9331-30bc5836f48e_story.html
======
geggam
Things like this are always interesting to me.

It's interesting that people who were subject to this sort of treatment
created the constitution limiting the US govt.

It's interesting that people who aren't subject to this sort of treatment are
trying to change the constitution and give the govt more power.

It's interesting to me that democide is the number 1 cause of death in the
20th century and everyone ignores that fact.

Its also interesting to me that the internet allows people to communicate and
learn how much all govts lie.

Change is coming as govts try to control the internet and the communication
people have with each other.

~~~
zzzeek
> It's interesting that people who were subject to this sort of treatment
> created the constitution limiting the US govt.

> It's interesting that people who aren't subject to this sort of treatment
> are trying to change the constitution and give the govt more power.

You mean like, when the 13th amendment was passed to abolish slavery and
involuntary servitude? Pesky "govt" now telling folks they can no longer own
human beings as property, that kind of thing?

Not all government power is oppression. A huge ton of it is vital for basic
human welfare. Simplistic assertions like "those who seek to change the
consitution are trying to give the government more power and therefore
obviously have not experienced real oppression" are not furthering the
conversation productively.

~~~
tomohawk
The 13th amendment abolished laws that had built up protecting slavery. It
meant that the slave interests could no longer use the government to enforce
what they wanted. It recognizes (does not grant) the right that we all have to
not live as slaves, and requires the government to protect that right. It is
an important protection from the use of government power to enforce the claims
of slave owners.

Prior to this, various laws and judicial decisions (such as Dredd Scott) had
made aiding fugitive slaves illegal, and had practically made slavery legal in
all states regardless of the will of the people.

Surprisingly, slavery persisted even after the Civil War. Here is a powerful,
true story of someone who was a slave around 1900:

[https://www.amazon.com/Emancipation-Robert-Sadler-
Twentieth-...](https://www.amazon.com/Emancipation-Robert-Sadler-Twentieth-
Century-Plantation/dp/076420940X)

------
yorwba
The article mentions the students using GitHub to evade censorship. I think
that might refer to
[https://terminus2049.github.io/](https://terminus2049.github.io/)

Terminus 端点星计划，是在 GitHub 开放平台搭建的一个站点，以去中心化的方式备份微信、微博等平台被删文章。

 _Terminus is a site set up on GitHub 's open platform to back up posts
deleted from WeChat, Weibo and other platforms by means of decentralization._

~~~
rwmj
That's an odd definition of decentralization.

~~~
jtms
Git is one of the most widely used distributed protocols on the internet.
GitHub is just one node on the graph... seems like a decent use/definition to
me.

~~~
sdinsn
Distributed is not the same as decentralized. GitHub is centralized and
distributed.

~~~
jtms
Git, the protocol, is not the same as GitHub, the service. Git, the protocol,
is absolutely distributed. And just to repeat my point - GitHub is only a
single possible node in the graph

------
soulofmischief
> "But to handle them with force seems a bit low. Why not take the high road?"

How removed from society can you be to view disappearing, humilating and
torturing citizens as "a bit low"?

Have we forgotten the purpose of a government?

~~~
conanbatt
I have two ideas on this regard:

The first is that Asian culture (including Japan, Korea) is profoundly
dogmatic and hierarchical. They have a completely different moral-alignment
with being obedient.

The second is that over time, you can really achive the social transformation
spouted by authoritarian governments. Russia was communist for 90 years. North
korea approaching 70 years. After several generations what you have is the
only thing that people know.

As a westerner, I find it truly amazing that these systems survive at all.

~~~
wincy
With enough aggressive “pruning” (read: murders by a tyrannical and
totalitarian government) in a population, natural selection inevitably takes
its course.

Anyone in North Korea who would speak up has long since escaped, been
disappeared, or killed.

~~~
conanbatt
The scary generalization of this idea is that all governments engage in this
activity to some degree.

The liberty nutjobs really have a point about being intolerant to the
minuscule interventions: by this model, its a way of domesticating people.

OTOH I don't believe this idea is right, because humanity has had slavery and
oppression since time immemorial, and freedom as we know it is relatively new.
It is a natural desire of human beings to fight against glaring injustices,
and for the oppressed to fight back.

~~~
maconic
They all do engage in some form of it... show me a modern Western country that
doesn't have long sentences including death for sedition, subversion, or
treason against "the State?" I think the only question is who gets to decide
what are violations... because those charges are vague and arbitrary. Tax
evasion or corruption charges have the same problem... I smile every time I
read an article about someone arrested for tax evasion in Russia or corruption
in China.

------
gambiting
I increasingly feel that this is what it must have been like with the rise of
Nazi Germany - I have frequently asked myself "how come people still supported
Germany as it was heading in that direction? Why didn't other countries oppose
it harder?". Well, I think I know how now - because it's invisible from the
outside. I'm not saying that China wants to attack its neighbours and take
over the world - but fuck, there's estimated to be over a million people in
"reeducation" camps in China. The survailance apparatus judges you if you are
being a "good" citizen with harsh consequences for doing anything that the
party doesn't approve of. Censorship is widespread. And yet, people don't seem
to have hugely negative feelings towards China. Most people I know wouldn't
even object to going there on holiday. I honestly feel that in 20-30 years
we're going to look back and say "how did we not see this? Or how did we
ignore this?".

~~~
sametmax
It's not invisible. We know. But we don't feel a sufficient motivation to do
something about it.

~~~
soulofmischief
I'd go stand in front of a tank right now. Like what are we _actually_
supposed to do?

I have tons of motivation to do something about the largest totalitarian
regime. Just tell me where to go and what to do.

I woulnd't assume that quite a few people don't feel this way. The issue isn't
lack of motivation. It's the lack of any sort of leverage over a giant
totalitarian foreign government.

~~~
sametmax
If I tell you that I give you a billion dollar to quit your job, and find a
solution to this, you will try to do so. Not knowing what to do is something
that happens all the time in life: we try anyway. Stopping at "I don't know
what to do" is just the first clue that you can see a cost and not a reward
sufficient to dig and try.

I'm not taking a moral stand here. I don't think anybody not doing anything is
a bad person. But let's not pretend ignorance and inability. We don't even
try. Reading HN is much more comfortable, besides life has many challenges
already.

~~~
a1369209993
[Setting aside the overwhelming likehood that you are lying, mistaken, or
other not genuine in your hypothetical offer.]

If you offer me (1G$/50yr=) 20 million dollars a year to spend eight hours a
day _trying_ to find a solution to this, then sure, I'll take that job and do
it to the best of my ability. I don't expect to _succeed_ , but as long as the
paychecks clear I'll keep working.

If you offer me a billion dollars _contingent on finding a solution_ , I'm
going to ignore you, just like I ignore the people offering a million dollars
for a solution to P vs NP, or XX million dollars for correctly predicting
which six balls they pull out of a basket.

------
_bxg1
How can the rest of the world help, before this fiery resistance is
extinguished for good?

~~~
conanbatt
1) Trade War

2) Real War

~~~
html5web
Trade and Real War can hurt people as well!

~~~
conanbatt
I think there is a deep naivete in believing you can turn situations like NK
or china with politics, diplomacy and no dead bodies.

Lets not forget what stopped nazism!

~~~
yourbandsucks
How many dead bodies are you asking for, exactly? 100M?

We've all got strong feelings about politics, but maybe Americans in
particular ought to be a little less cavalier about dead foreigners in the
name of American idealism.

~~~
maconic
I think the pragmatic answer is that unless the country cares about the stick
(sanctions, tariffs, military conflict) or the carrot (financial aid, access
to markets, military alliances), you can't do anything. How long have we been
talking about human rights in China... 1989? They don't care, and why should
they? It works better in smaller countries that are easier to isolate like
North Korea or Venezuela, but even there it doesn't work great if a larger
country like Russia or China is willing to support them. Beyond that, it's
just symbolic gestures like expelling diplomats or lodging protests with the
ambassador.

------
RealityNow
This is extremely disturbing, not to mention so ironic that a self-proclaimed
"communist" regime is torturing and kidnapping communist activists.

We can debate Marxism here in the comments, but the fact is that nobody
regardless of their political stance should have to worry about being
kidnapped or tortured by their government. At that point your government is
effectively a gang, of no higher moral ground than a bunch of thugs with guns.

Until China fixes their government, they will never be taken seriously on the
same level of other "first world" countries. Unless people passively watch
Peking University students (statistically harder to get into than Harvard) get
kidnapped by their government and do nothing about it.

I wonder what Chinese people think about the odds of any of this improving.

~~~
conanbatt
> Until China fixes their government, they will never be taken seriously on
> the same level of other "first world" countries.

I think russia has been taken seriously for a century now, with not better
track record. What makes your country be taken seriously is your military
strength, which is your capacity to flip-off any other country that tries to
take political advantage over you.

> I wonder what Chinese people think about the odds of any of this improving.

What I think is that the vast majority of chinese don't care about this topic
at all, and would rather not think about it. Remember, most of them dont know
about Tiananmen square, not because the government censored it, but because
they don't care about it.

~~~
krsrhe
How do you know the difference between not caring and not being given any
information they could care about?

~~~
conanbatt
I've asked this question to people that live in china, which is very
anecdotal.

In the modern age, it's impossible to keep information out. Any chinese person
that left the country has had access to this information, and could have
disseminated with virtually no effort.

------
sagebird
I seek to help Qiu Zhanxuan achieve freedom again. I think it is somewhat
unlikely, but I have decided that the best thing I can do is petition US
Universities to put Chinese student applications to US universities on hold
until Qiu Zhanxuan is released, or his remains are released. To that end I
have created a petition.
[http://chng.it/WgwY9xdN8M](http://chng.it/WgwY9xdN8M) If you think my
strategy is not optimal or have suggestions or a better idea - please respond
below or reach out. @williamsharkey on twitter.

------
html5web
Chinese people must unite now! China has started putting Uyghur Muslims into
camps, censoring internet etc. violating human rights. If you do not have your
voice today your future will be doomed.

------
Manjuuu
Sometimes, like when we are near a certain anniversary, I wonder how much this
order of things will endure, i doubt that economic growth will come fast
enough for everyone. Who knows.

~~~
conanbatt
Can you have economic prosperity without political liberty?

China has been showing us that it can so far.

~~~
Manjuuu
Sure, but i wouldn't be surprised if the people would soon start wanting
"more" (or at least, starting to understand that there are substantial
differences with what the rest of the world can or cannot do).

------
jdefr89
There is a paywall? Why is this even on front page? I am on phone, maybe I’m
missing something.

~~~
mmwelt
Well, it doesn't seem to like Privacy Badger.

So here's the archive.is version:
[http://archive.is/o8uvi](http://archive.is/o8uvi)

