
Getting a job in San Francisco - fabienpenso
http://blog.penso.info/2013/05/25/getting-a-job-in-san-francisco/
======
jmduke
To be honest, this makes me want to get a job in Paris.

The way Fabien describes SF as a Mecca evokes the sense of wonder Woody Allen
had about the City of Love:

 _You know, I sometimes think, how is anyone ever gonna come up with a book,
or a painting, or a symphony, or a sculpture that can compete with a great
city. You can't. Because you look around and every street, every boulevard, is
its own special art form and when you think that in the cold, violent,
meaningless universe that Paris exists, these lights, I mean come on, there's
nothing happening on Jupiter or Neptune, but from way out in space you can see
these lights, the cafés, people drinking and singing. For all we know, Paris
is the hottest spot in the universe._

There's something nice about being in a city where everyone is one the same
wavelength, but I think there's something more romantic about being holed up
in a Parisian apartment that's stood the trial of centuries, committing to
GitHub with the Eiffel Tower in the window (physical or otherwise) and such
tremendous history all around you.

~~~
zerr
... in a 18 sq.m. "apartment".

~~~
rhizome
To be sure, apartments tend to be smaller when and where more activity occurs
outside in common spaces.

------
guylhem
_> When rejecting candidates for my own company I wanted to tell them why I
rejected them, and how to improve, but I have been told not to do it, for
legal reason._

When the laws prevent you from giving actionable feedback to the person you
didn't hire, you know it has gone too far.

The government should have no business in your selection or rejection of new
hires, and the firing of them if needed.

 _> I believe the US way to be better_

I don't. It may be less backward bent than France, but there is certainly a
lot of room for improvement - like being able to give proper feedback.

~~~
CoachRufus87
The government doesn't prevent you from giving actionable feedback to the
person you didn't hire, it just gives the person you didn't hire the ability
to sue you should you not hire them based on some criteria (race, sex,
religion, or whatever their lawyer can argue).

~~~
S4M
I thought the real reason was that if you have a candidate that is, say,
Black, and you tell him that you didn't hire him because you "felt that he
didn't have enough knowledge of Ruby", he would be able to sue you if he found
out you hired someone who supposedly has the same level of knowledge of ruby
as him.

~~~
mhurron
> "felt that he didn't have enough knowledge of Ruby", he would be able to sue
> you if he found out you hired someone who supposedly has the same level of
> knowledge of ruby as him.

Except that you felt it because the other candidate interviewed and sold
himself better.

The way it is being presented here you could always sue if you're black and
the person they hired wasn't. It doesn't really work that way. They do have to
provide proof of their claim of racism/sexism or whatnot. They didn't hire me
isn't proof.

~~~
auctiontheory
That's right. The rejected candidate can always sue. S/he might not _win_ ,
but s/he can sue.

And for the employer, win or lose, it's a huge headache, risk and cost, with
big PR downside to boot. The employer has no incentive to increase this risk
by saying more than is absolutely necessary.

------
tzz
I am not from SF and hard for me to believe that a company like Twitter cares
about your look more than your technical expertise.

    
    
      I will add than Twitter had a specific atmosphere compared  
      to other so called startups. The employees seem to be hired 
      on more than skills, everyone at their office is very much 
      hipster like, beautiful looking, feeling super confident 
      and ready to kick it. Walking around Twitter sometimes 
      almost feels like walking within a TV show.

~~~
rm999
>cares about your look more than your technical expertise.

In all fairness that's not what he said. Some companies - like google - have a
very objective hiring process based almost entirely on technical skill. But
many other companies include "fit" as a part of the hiring decision. I haven't
interviewed at twitter but I could believe they are like that.

I've thumbed down candidates who did well on the technical part of the
interview because I felt I wouldn't get along with them day to day. Not as
extreme as "beautiful" people who are "ready to kick it", but more like
arrogance or social awkwardness.

~~~
throwaway011001
Has the tech sector really come to the point where coders/geeks can't even be
socially awkward anymore?

I thought coding was one profession where socially awkward geeks could make an
honest living.

~~~
rm999
Maybe "bad communication skills" is the more precise way of putting it. I work
in a very collaborative team that frequently has to communicate with both
technical and non-technical people, so being social and at least somewhat
friendly is pretty important. Most tech people are a little socially awkward
so getting rejected for it really says something.

I think people with poor social skills can thrive in tech, but in a more
internally facing position like pure development or testing.

------
jordn
Excellent post, thanks for writing it. The viewpoint of a French developer
probably resonates with anyone from Europe.

> _You’ll see an immense amazing positive atmosphere everywhere, people
> working day time for a normal job and coding on evenings in coffee places,
> trying to work on their latest idea. They might even raise a few millions
> dollars on it, really._

I completely appreciate this - it's an amazing cultural difference.

------
pimeys
I don't buy this. For me, the biggest problem in SF is that it is in US. Ever
when I'm in that country I feel like I'm home. The politics, the crooked
police, the expensive life... I don't want to be part of it. I really love
Europe. This is my home continent with different countries and different
people. I love to write code and I can get a pretty decent life also in
Berlin. The weather is not so nice, but the city atmosphere really feels
welcoming. And not all interesting challenges are in SF, believe me.

~~~
RDeckard
Know that feel. I am from Canada (which is probably closer to US culturally
than Europe) and having been here for 5 years, I am really really home sick...

------
drpancake
Interesting read. Does anyone have recent experience in obtaining a Green
Card? I'd be interested to know how long it takes on average, transitioning
from an H1-B visa.

> _Mecca for Software Engineers, the only place in the World where the guy in
> front at Starbucks has big chance to be Software developer._

I'm a iOS developer and I love software, but this was one of my main reasons
for leaving SF.

~~~
jtarrio
Depending on your educational background and working experience, you go into
one or another category. Most people here will fit in EB-3, EB-2 and EB-1. If
you are in EB-1 you can get it in about a year; in EB-2 you can get it in two
years unless you're from China or India; in EB-3 you can probably get it in
seven years, unless you're from India.

------
danbmil99
> But being rejected by a team because you’re not a fit doesn’t mean you can’t
> try another within the same company, if the company is big enough (Apple,
> Google, etc).

Google's teams don't hire; Google hires (teams aren't even able to influence
the process, by design) -- then you get placed on a team.

~~~
mik3y
> Google's teams don't hire; Google hires (teams aren't even able to influence
> the process, by design)

Not quite.

While the generic SWE / new grad process is close to what you describe,
individual teams and managers regularly exert a non-zero amount of influence:
in screening and routing candidates, recommending the interview slate, getting
the packet to hiring committee, and bidding on a candidate once an offer is
made.

It's also common for more specialized groups (such as Platforms) to have their
own HC.

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suman_nandan
This is a very well written piece with lots of good advice. Thanks a lot for
writing this.

~~~
stevewilhelm
> This is a very well written

It may contain some interesting points, but it is obviously written by an ESL
writer.

~~~
tonfa
That's international English (lingua franca).

I find it fun when native speaker complain about ESL speakers, since in the
end it is likely that international English will win.

I live in a non-English speaking country, the common language in the office is
international English (there are 60+ nationalities, and less than 20% are
native english speaker). It would be fun to track over time if the native
speakers start speaking international english :)

------
ericdykstra
As a junior web developer currently looking for my first full-time job
programming in San Francisco, this all rings very true, and is a great summary
of the job-hunting experience in the city. In my experience, referrals helped
more than in the original poster's experience. Usually a referral skips me
ahead to step 3 in the process (as laid out in the post).

------
nchuhoai
What is the most important thing and what the article pointed out greatly is
the need for the green card, without it, your life becomes incredibly
dependent on your employer (unless you remain flexible).

I'm going to college in the US, but am from Germany, and what makes me
reluctant to plan a future in the US, is the requirement for me to bind myself
to a company for in worst case 10+ years to have the certainty that I can stay
in the US, should I chose not wanting to be employed.

Aiming to be a freelancer or entrepreneur becomes next to impossible if you
want to stay in the US without a green card. At least to my knowledge, I'd be
happy to be wrong in this case.

------
greghinch
_"French will note US companies don’t pay much tax on salaries like they do in
France, what could make you think is a lot of money isn’t. Your French salary
costs 40% extra to your company, but not in San Francisco."_

Not really the case. Taxes + benefits can easily add up to that much. General
rule is it costs 150% of a salary to employ someone in the US. Much of what
might be lumped into taxes in other countries is just paid for separately
(such as healthcare), but the overall cost of the employee sounds like its
about equal.

------
thedjpetersen
Would love to also see a follow-up piece about getting a job in Paris

~~~
fabienpenso
Well there is a huge difference. As a Software Engineer you want to work in
San Francisco because it's where your job happens.

In Paris, nothing happens on that level. If you do want to come to Paris it's
because of the amazing food, lifestyle, public transportation system, and
certainly not because of the amazing startups we should have.

~~~
hnriot
Not to mention working in Paris is like working part time here. 35 hour
weeks!!! Mandated by law too. Of course this might also be why there isn't a
vibrant startup culture.

~~~
byroot
Companies can easily workaround the 35 hours week with the "cadre" status that
basically nullify the regulated hours constraint, and they do.

I don't know any developer in Paris that do a 35 hours week. Actually it's
even the contrary, French managers have a strong culture of evaluating
employees performance based on presence. So you see a lot of peoples doing
10-12 hours a day, or coming back to the office on saturday.

~~~
plopper
This. I don't know any french developer not being on a day rate instead of an
hour rate. An awful lot of people on an hour rate have a number of extra hours
factored in their salary by default.

It's still better than the US, "cadre" status (but not top management) is
officially around 180-190 day of work per year (depending on the unions).

------
swampthing
Although this is written for French developers looking to come to the US, I
found it interesting as a window into what things are like in France. Thanks
for writing it!

~~~
zerr
AFAIK salaries are rather low there, but cost of living is quite expensive.

~~~
cxx
That is not only in France, it's in all Europe. Salaries in Germany, The
Netherlands, UK and so on are much much lower than in SF or NY. Developer jobs
that pay more than 60k euro are few and far between. A 50k+ job is already
above average and upgrading is not going to be easy.

~~~
fabienpenso
The difference is, Europe see developers as commodities. They don't care, they
don't need them as much as they do in San Francisco.

San Francisco see developers as the only way to achieve their project they
just raised 10 millions for. You're gold to them, they accept to pay a higher
price.

In Europe most young developers want to be Product Manager (or any Manager
positions), most developers in SF don't care about this, they want to have
fun. The reason could be you get paid super well in SF, and not in Europe :)

~~~
seivan
Exactly This. MBA's aren't a joke in EU. They are actually taken seriously..

~~~
cxx
They aren't a joke in the US or the rest of the world either. It's only in
certain circles that they're not valued. There's plenty of companies where an
MBA from a well-known university is a passport stamp (and prerequisite) to a
high paying job.

------
guiomie
I read this blog post with a french accent in my head.

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alloftheabove
Where do these salary numbers come from?

~~~
JoeKM
I have to agree, 150k for senior engineer? I would say 100-120k for senior
engineer, 75-100k for engineer, 50-60k for intern.

~~~
jcdavis
For the Bay Area these days, those numbers seem about right. Big companies pay
100k to new grads

~~~
kevintoaster
Seconded. Engineering salaries have jumped significantly recently. With 2
years experience out of college I've seen people getting offers of 120k -
140k.

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rodrigoavie
What's wrong with Parisians?

~~~
plopper
Basically, they were hipsters before it was cool.

