
Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden - lukejduncan
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD
======
dylangs1030
I don't mean to be cynical, but a mere petition is just the tip of the
iceberg.

This is a government agency that is commiting widespread breach of privacy. A
petition will not be respected. It's an OK start, but it will be essentially
meaningless.

If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical
actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace.

The _ease_ of an action corresponds to what it can _achieve._ Do you want
change? Show the government how badly you want it. Fight for your rights.
Don't just click a link.

They've demonstrated they don't care for the voice of the people. So change
the domain to something they _do_ care about.

~~~
csomar
_If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical
actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace._

Do you have any backups for that? I mean, any historical proof that rioting
will make change?

You know, Tunisia went on a relatively peaceful revolution and now we have
less freedom and more problems/unemployment. It's even worse for countries
where the revolution is violent.

Having lived that experience, I'll be against rioting/civil disobedience any
time and for any cause.

Want to make change? Educate people. nothing else.

~~~
baby
Revolution in France in 1789. We don't learn history in school for nothing I
hope.

~~~
mpyne
Wasn't that the one that introduced Robespierre and the Reign of Terror, and
then later another despot? Sure, Napoleon was talented and introduced the
civil code, but it was still another example of the guy with the biggest stick
making the rules.

~~~
baby
They were uneducated people who went through a system that only valued rich
and well connected people. What did you expect?

Take lessons from the past, and APPLY them to your context.

I'm not saying that rioting and killing Obama is the solution. I'm saying that
using the government's tools (petitioning) against them is ridiculous. You
have to show people you're angry, you have to show your entire country you're
angry and you want things to change, laws to change, the system to change. You
have to take a real stand.

EDIT : As I mentioned in some other comment. The revolution brought us
Democracy, which later spread across all Europe, and brought us the beautiful
Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen which is used everywhere
in the world as standards (not always respected though). I believe the
revolution was the most beautiful part of France history. Napoleon was our
anger which was still resonating years after the Monarchy. We're calm people
now.

~~~
mpyne
You can take a stand without violence.

You can take a stand without destruction.

Hell, ask Snowden if he would rather have organized online action to protest,
or people in the street beating other people...

------
pvnick
Have to put your full name in to sign (I did). Ominous captcha:
[http://i.imgur.com/P0Ff5Kd.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/P0Ff5Kd.jpg)

------
nikcub
You need to have been convicted to receive a pardon, the petition should be
not to prosecute.

Despite the semantics, this is a good idea to let the administration know that
a lot of citizens do not consider what Snowden did to be a crime and support
his actions.

~~~
dpearson
Nixon received a "full, free, and absolute pardon" from Gerald Ford [0],
despite not actually having even stood trial, let alone having been convicted.

[0]:
[http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/26847.html](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/26847.html)

~~~
Tloewald
It's not clear if this would have stood up in court, since Nixon was never
prosecuted.

~~~
dpearson
However, when the president of the United States issues a pardon, even one
that is of questionable legality, it's still a powerful statement: Ford placed
the power and influence of the Oval Office in between Nixon and any
prosecutor.

This petition suggests a similar maneuver with Obama and Snowden.

------
apsec112
This won't do any good. White House policy is to not comment directly on
pardons, but to direct such petitioners to the Office of the Pardon Attorney
([http://www.justice.gov/pardon/](http://www.justice.gov/pardon/)).

See eg. [https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/grant-full-
pardon-...](https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/grant-full-pardon-chris-
williams-man-facing-80-years-prison-legally-growing-medical-
marijuana/PgtWfvFg), a past pardon petition.

------
Xanza
There's a lot of negativity in this thread, so I'll simply say two things.

1) If you do nothing, nothing will change. Protesting might not be the best
choice, but it's better than no action at all. This petition will change
absolutely nothing, especially if it only reaches the minimum required
signatures. There are 311,000,000 people in the United States which means a
menial 100,000 signatures accounts for 0.0003215434% of the total population.
Not even 0.01%.

2) Martin Luther King Jr changed the course of a nation with civil
disobedience. To say it can't be done again is ignorant and foolish.

------
codehalo
It is the government that should be petitioning the public and the planet for
a pardon.

~~~
tome
That would be an interesting world to live in.

------
swalsh
The sole purpose of these petitions is to collect mailing lists for people
concerned about specific issues. Here is an example where I may not want to be
associated with... though I guess they probably have access to my bank
accounts, and taxes, and can see I donate to the EFF every year...

on a separate note, I really do worry about the well being of this guy.

~~~
RivieraKid
No, it isn't.

------
tokenadult
I'm still making my mind up about what I think about the activities of Edward
Snowden. (I was just reading some of the press coverage about him, especially
the extensive story about him in The Guardian.) And I am on record here on HN
sharing information about mass popular movements to fight tyranny

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5840000](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5840000)

and commenting on cases I have personally observed and participated in of
turning a country from dictatorship with a secret police including political
assassins into a representative democracy with a free press, fair elections,
and independent judiciary, and constitutionally protected civil liberties.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5844864](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5844864)

That said, I am also on record somewhere on HN expressing the general opinion
that it is pointless for us to submit White House petitions here as new
stories. That's not really on-topic for HN, and it's not clear to me (in light
of my knowledge of what kind of protest movements have worked in the past to
overcome dictatorships) that posting a White House petition here does any good
in the real world. Your opinion may differ, but I offer the thought that we
have better means

[http://www.aeinstein.org/organizationsde07.html](http://www.aeinstein.org/organizationsde07.html)

of tackling your concern about government data-gathering programs than posting
White House petitions. If you like the petitions, share them in your social
networks in which you see your friends, but discuss the real, powerful
democracy hacker tools here.

------
beloch
It may as well read:

Sign here to admit you are treasonous terrorist-loving scum who should be
under constant surveillance by the NSA for the protection of all fine,
upstanding, _compliant_ 'merican citizens.

~~~
wavefunction
They apparently already think that about us, so why not put it on the line.

When we say "put your John Hancock" on it, there's a reason...

------
btilly
Thanks for creating this. Signed.

How many others dare to let the administration know your opinion about
transparency?

~~~
samstave
Should submit it with many public figures public email address: zuck@fb.com
etc...

------
timberlane
Please sign this petition now.

Upvoting and discussion on HN is important, but if 50% of the people who read
this take 30 seconds to sign the petition, it could truly help.

------
wslh
Why can't I login with my Google or Facebook accounts? :-)

~~~
abductee
lol

------
detcader
We're going to have to go to the streets to do this. This is something where a
government needs to see physical people to be swayed.

------
rdl
A trial would be FAR better for everyone, at least if it happened openly
(which it wouldn't)

Imagine the US Government having to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this
disclosure caused "exceptionally grave damage to US national security."

~~~
amirmc
If it got that far I wouldn't be surprised if they claimed to have strong and
compelling evidence of grave harm ... But cannot reveal it due to security
concerns.

------
logn
Show support and solidarity. I submitted this about changing GitHub avatars:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5850659](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5850659)

------
tome
Isn't it a bit soon for this? We don't even know if he's released anything of
substantial value. As I understand it Glenn Greenwald is retaining the "best"
for later.

~~~
jlgreco
If his leak was not of particular value, then he is more deserving of
punishment?

This would have a chilling effect on leaking, to say the least. Miscalculating
the public's capacity to care should not increase your sentence.

~~~
tome
You're right that there is a certain paradox in what I wrote.

"If he has leaked something of value to America and the world then he should
not be punished. But if he has leaked nothing of value then there was no need
for it to be secret, and he should not be punished!"

I dunno. At the very least it would be nice to have the evidence out in full
before jumping to conclusions.

------
skcin7
I find it an oxymoron that you have to sign up for an account to a government
website to sign a petition asking for them to stop invading my privacy. Maybe
I'm just being cynical.

------
rd108
Web tools finally able to tip the balance of government more towards direct
democracy rather than representative. Signed. eventually, these networked
tools will threaten to snowball into actual political change, and their makers
will shut them down. but it's pretty easy to make a clone once people have an
expectation that _this is how government_ should work.

------
jwatte
There is no way this petition can succeed. The powers that be speak
realpolitik, and you don't. It's just that, with easier worldwide media
outlets, their secrecy is occasionally exposed for a brief while until we
forget. Go home. Get on with your life. If you're not already playing in the
big leagues, there is literally nothing you can do.

------
joelthelion
To everyone saying the petition is useless:

It's a good start. If enough people sign, it will force the administration to
answer the petition. Even if it doesn't push the administration to give a
positive answer, it can help fuel more protests and actions.

~~~
flyinRyan
It doesn't force anything. The petition can be completely ignored, some
bullshit answer given, etc., etc. How many more ineffective petitions will you
people piss away your time with before you understand it's just a distraction?

------
MikeKusold
In the West Wing, a US TV Show that is no longer on air after 8 seasons, the
White House communications director leaked to the press that the US had a
military space shuttle. He leaked this so that astronauts on board a disabled
shuttle could be rescued. In the TV show, the public generally agreed with
what he did and treated him as a hero.

(This is where the relevant part comes into play)

Before the communications director was unceremoniously fired by the President,
the President told the communications director:

"When you walk out of here, there'll be people out there, perhaps a great
many, who'll think of you as a hero. I just don't for a moment want you
thinking I'll be one of them."

(disclaimer/spoiler: The communications director was pardoned by the President
after much deliberation on the President's part. This was mainly due to his
very close friendship, and the fact that the communications director had a
family on the way)

------
xelipe
I would sign the petition to pardon Edward Snowden but to create an account
they require an email address and I didn't want that to be tracked.

~~~
apsec112
www.hushmail.com

------
desireco42
I see signatures growing at steady clip, I am happy. This witch hunt where
rapist are walking and decent people get locked up is not right.

------
Myrmornis
Mark Zuckerberg should apologize for calling the press reports stemming from
Snowden's actions "outrageous".

------
codezero
This seems like a bit much. Why not a petition not to prosecute him, or not to
extradite him?

A blanket free-ride for any and all crimes just won't ever happen. What if he
murdered several people along the way, let's say they weren't government
employees or involved in PRISM at all, does that mean he should be pardoned
for that? The language on this petition needs serious work to get real
support, or to have a reasonable chance of being addressed.

~~~
jlgreco
"Edward Snowden is a national hero and should be immediately issued a a full,
free, and absolute pardon for any crimes he has committed or may have
committed _related to blowing the whistle on secret NSA surveillance
programs._ "

If Edward Snowden murdered people that were not government employees or
involved in PRISM, then that plainly would not be crimes _related to blowing
the whistle on secret NSA surveillance programs_. If it was at all ambiguous,
it could be argued in court.

~~~
codezero
Not necessarily, also, I was using an extreme example to make a point, I can
imagine many scenarios where he killed a civilian "related to blowing the
whistle," but since that obvious exaggeration failed to get my point across
I'll move along.

------
eupharis
This is the perfect distillation of everything that is right and hopeful and
beautiful about the internet.

------
daughart
This petition has less of a chance than the one about building a death star.

------
joeblau
It's a trap by the NSA!

------
kevinSuttle
A pardon implies that someone broke the law. This isn't the case here.

------
inselkampf
Don't you have to be convicted first before you can be pardoned?

------
gggggggg
Why would it be only a one day partition. One day to reach 100,000.

~~~
zainny
One month.

~~~
gggggggg
My mistake, thanks.

------
ndesaulniers
If you sign the petition, your name goes on another list, too. ;)

------
user24
Firefox can't find the server at petitions.whitehouse.gov.

------
dopamean
Like I'm actually going to sign that...

------
opinali
Please fix the typo "a a full"...

------
parollo
women and children women and children women and children women and children
women and children women and children women and children women and children
women and children women and children women and children women and children
women and children women and children why won't someone think of the women and
children women and children WOMEN AND CHILDREN women and children why aren't
you crying yet

(referred to this thread ->
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5846391](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5846391))

(i'll keep posting this, enjoy)

~~~
wavefunction
Don't worry, this means an awful lot to many out here, even in America

------
aj700
This should be read as an indictment of what the site has become, not just an
example of it.

"Where's the petition to NOT pardon him!!"

I will do it. I will ragequit. This site is turning into a libertarian silicon
valley version of freerepublic.

When you've found civilisation, America, in 1000 years or so you'll realise
that autoritarianism works and that's why you've got it.

If we had a fascist government, everyone would be in prison except me. I'm
sick of the police failing to do their job because they don't know that it IS:
to provide a level playing field, that I can see, so I have no need or
temptation to cheat in the first place. As an average HN reader, you know this
is correct. Ever been pulled over for speeding on a road where everyone else
gets away with worse? Until the state STOPS the bad guys having all the fun,
you, the state, down to every beat cop, haven't done this. More government
now. Much much much much more. Make 50% of the population into prison officers
and cops if necessary. There'll be zero unemployment.

Well whaddya know. The great recession _has_ caused Europeans to return to
fascism. Way to go Dick Fuld(!)

@pg : either ban all politics from the site or deal with the fires of hell
that start in 5 4 3 2 1

Hi there NSA readers, keep it up.

~~~
oinksoft
Why not just stand up and cool off? The focus of the story is privacy on the
internet, and predictably it gets huge play on this website.

~~~
repler
You'd think that the crowd who reads hacker news would understand that the
data on Twitter, Facebook, and Google is not their own property.

You are not entitled to outrage over data you freely gave away.

And the NSA has had domestic phone metadata since the 1970's, the only thing
different is the speed and scale.

The real focus should be on the guy who gave up state secrets and then
defected to China. Did he make some kind of deal? There were a dozen better
ways to handle the abuse he perceived at the NSA - he chose what was most
convenient for him.

He does not get my respect, and he is certainly not a hero.

