
Microsoft prepares U-turn on Windows 8 - mbesto
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/330c8b8e-b66b-11e2-93ba-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2SbWWnYCE
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corporalagumbo
U-turn? I don't think so. A company like Microsoft doesn't change its logo and
completely redevelop its _entire web presence_ so that for the first time ever
its entire product line-up is consistent unless it has really, really
carefully thought through its plans, and is pretty damn committed to them.
And, even if Windows 8 wasn't a rave success, it would be incredibly weak (not
to mention idiotic) to cave to pressure from short-sighted consumers and
pundits and return to the old desktop. Besides, I doubt anyone at Microsoft is
that upset about Windows 8's reception - it was a truly foundational release,
with so much work done in so many areas, and so obviously a work in progress,
that even modest success was probably a good result.

Windows 8 was just the start of a massive transition process for Microsoft.
Inevitably there were a lot of rough areas, room to improve, etc. Microsoft
will have gained a huge amount of feedback, done a huge amount of work
thinking about how to build on 8. I expect to continually up the polish,
improve the features, smooth the split between both the new UI and the
desktop, as well as improve the transition between different form factors,
handle integration for users with multiple devices and so on better - but I
don't see any significant reversal of direction. The old desktop is simply too
antiquated and if Microsoft were to remain fused to it for any longer it would
put them in an extremely dangerous position, given the quantum leaps in UI
happening at the moment. The big question mark is how Microsoft is going to
handle legacy app support while unifying the overall experience and setting
sensible guidelines for what new apps (both Metro and Desktop) should look
like. There is a lot of inertia in the Windows ecosystem and it will take a
while to shift, but the results will definitely be worth it I think.

~~~
susi22
I'm a long time Windows user. I gave Win8 a try and had to google "How to shut
down Windows 8" and "How to close apps in Windows 8". It's ridiculous. Just go
to google and type in "how to shut " and it'll suggest you the rest. Same goes
for "how to close apps ".

~~~
numo16
I've heard this a few times from people and the really baffling part of it for
me is how many people still shut down their computers these days. Maybe I'm a
special case, but for laptops I close the lid and it sleeps until I need it
again and for desktops, I get up and walk away and it goes to sleep until I
need it again. The only time it shuts down or restarts is when an update
requires it.

~~~
susi22
I've used Win7 for years and I always use "WinKey+RightArrow+RightArrow" and
then I either press 'r', 's' or sleep or restart or whatever I want (it's
super quick onece you're used to it). I don't want my lid to do anything. I
have SSH session open and don't want them to kill (and don't start about
screen...). Also, my power button would've just shut down linux since the Win8
was in a VM.

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bornhuetter
What a ridiculously over the top hack article. In Windows 8, Microsoft did a
lot right, and a couple of things wrong. In 8.1 they are trying to fix those
couple of things.

If they put the start button back and default to the desktop, that would
address 90% of people's concerns. The only other major issue is that Metro
apps are so far pretty useless, but they are very easy to avoid until they get
better (or just ignore them permanently).

As to it being "widely panned", I saw a lot of positive reviews of it when it
came out. Even the Verge, who usually hate anything and everything Microsoft
gave it a good review.

~~~
PommeDeTerre
The absolute number of things done "right" or "wrong" doesn't matter so much.

Many small "right things" will not balance out even a single, massive "wrong
thing".

Keep in mind that the single "wrong thing" can in turn spawn new problems of
its own, like a tarnished reputation and uncertainty among consumers.

It should be quite clear now, although it was pretty clear during the preview
releases, that the UI changes were overwhelmingly bad. Even if such problems
are fixed with a subsequent update, there are enough people who still just
won't trust it, based on the poor initial experiences.

~~~
bornhuetter
But there aren't any massive "wrong things".

Missing start button and not booting to the desktop are by far the two biggest
complaints I hear about Windows 8. These are, in the scheme of things, not
exactly massive issues. There are numerous programs out there that fix this
issue, and Microsoft can fix them with a minor tweak.

Metro apps have a load of problems, but since they are completely avoidable
(and I think most people are just completely avoiding them) it's not a major
issue. It's like widgets in Vista.

That workspace all the way to the left on OS X with widgets, whatever it's
called. I've literally never seen anyone use that feature, but I wouldn't
consider it a major problem that it's there.

~~~
dspillett
_> These are, in the scheme of things, not exactly massive issues._

The perception can be very different though. There are those that _really_
don't like it, and it is rubbed in their face every time they login to their
machine. They are small matters, I agree: Metro apps can be completely ignored
and most of what I used the start menu for is just as it was (ctrl+esc, start
typing, pick from list) and is in some ways better, _but_ it is still a change
in look and feel that for a novice user adds friction.

Worse for a marketing/sales point of view: there are people who have not
really formed an opinion and have decided to avoid Windows 8 (not upgrading,
buying a machine with 7 instead, or getting the option and downgrading to 7
like many did from Vista to XP) because there is a lot of press questioning
the UI changes. These people might not know that the change is minor when you
consider their entire day, but it is being talked about it loudly enough that
MS don't want to take the risk.

Another problem for Windows 8 is of course that many people simply have no
real need to upgrade and no end of additional UI options is going to change
that. If people have no problem with Win7 then MS can make Win8 look exactly
like Win7 and it'll make no difference to that class of user (a very large
class of user) unless they offer the upgrade for free.

The only reason I have 8 is that I was rebuilding my main home PC, it was a
very cheap upgrade a the time, and I might have need to do Windows Phone 8
development in the not-too-distant future (the SDK for that will not install
on older Windows).

~~~
bornhuetter
So I think we agree that there are only fairly minor issues, but many people
feel that they are major.

I really think that a lot of this reaction is just because it's popular to
hate Microsoft - so any small perceived missteps are blown massively out of
proportion (particularly by the media).

Microsoft could have gone down the path of keeping everything exactly the
same, and providing no innovation; that probably would have worked great in
the short term - but they are trying to do something new and there are growing
pains associated with it.

~~~
dspillett
_> So I think we agree that there are only fairly minor issues, but many
people feel that they are major._

Essentially, yes.

 _> Microsoft could have gone down the path of keeping everything exactly the
same ... that probably would have worked in the short term_

I'm not sure it would, as people would have even less reason to upgrade. The
man on the street is not going to be impressed by under-the-hood improvements
to the point of spending upgrade cash so while they'd have saved some hassle
on new sales they would have lost revenue on upgrades. Admittedly the
reception has made that upgrade income smaller than they hoped for anyway, but
that is hindsight talking.

 _> but they are trying to do something new and there are _growing pains*
associated with it*

This is a bit part of the perception problem I think. A proportion of the of
the people who have upgraded (ignoring those who have opinions despite not
having tried it) feel that Windows 8 is using them as guinea pigs for the new
tablet stuff that they don't feel fits with their desktop use well. If MS had
made the new UI changes more easily turn-off-and-on-able initially they might
have avoided some of this friction.

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Nursie
Err ... Good?

I've not used it extensively but found it confusing. My Father (non-techy)
absolutely hates it. He hated Vista too but likes his Win 7 box.

Very dangerous for MS to screw around with this as inertia and familiarity are
a huge force in keeping them dominant. In their position the worst thing they
could do is force big changes, which is what they've done.

~~~
girvo
As another random anecdote: my technically not-inclined girlfriend loves it.
Finds it super easy to use: use the desktop mode for her architecture apps,
and metro for all her personal stuff.

I even like it, although I did just wipe it on my new laptop for Ubuntu 13.04
- it's quite nice to use in my humble opinion.

~~~
Nursie
Interesting. Obviously anecdotes != data so assuming my experience is
universal would be quite wrong.

Have you or she customised the interface at all? I found the lack of start
menu odd and hard to work with.

~~~
girvo
Nope, stock standard. The way to think about it, is that Metro IS the start-
menu.

So, hit the Super (windows) key, and start typing, just like you would to
quick launch via Windows 7's start-menu.

Pin your most used desktop apps to the bar in Desktop mode, and I promise with
those two tips, you'll find it quite a bit easier to handle :)

Now, hot corners on the other hand... those are a bit annoying. I will add
that all this is on a laptop: having gestures enabled is a big plus. I also
use a trackpad for my iMac and have one on my desktop at work, so I kinda
can't live without them, and Windows 8's are pretty decent. Not OS X level
yet, but getting there.

~~~
Nursie
So how about app discovery?

I found myself having to poke around in the program files directory in
explorer (very sub-optimal) in order to find out what was actually installed
on the machine.

~~~
girvo
Fair enough, that's something I've not run into myself :) Although, hit the
Super key, bring up the Charms bar (swipe in from right on a trackpad, mouse
in top right hand corner with a desktop) and there should be an Applications
menu that lists them? It's just a standard vertical list of all applications.
I think that's where it is, anyway, let me know.

~~~
Nursie
This seems somewhat less than intuitive!

I'll give it a go next time I have to intervene in a parental computing
experiment.

~~~
girvo
See the thing is, intuitive is an odd concept. We've learned how Windows works
over the years, so now it seems "intuitive", but from observing people
learning PC's for the first time, this sort of stuff is just as hard for them
on 7, 8, or XP!

Now: that's the cause of the problems with Windows 8. We've all had to go back
to square-one. Windows 8: the great equaliser ;)

There's a few things I don't like in it, just like every OS. But, it's not
bad, I think. Good luck!

~~~
Nursie
Well yeah, what's intuitive is indeed subjective and depends entirely on what
the user has already learned, which harks back to my first post - changing
things so much is a very dangerous game for an incumbent whose market-share
pretty much relies on them not upsetting their users.

Many of their users have taken many years to learn how to operate previous
iterations of Windows satisfactorily, and switching stuff around frustrates
them.

Myself I'll be sticking with Debian/XFCE because I like it and I don't feel
like I'm constantly being told that I'm doing it wrong!

------
wluu
Not really a u-turn. More like re-fining.

It's like the Windows Vista to 7. Little tweaks here and there.

Win 8 has many changes. Some to the UI, some under the hood. Pretty impressed
at the boot speed of Win 8 on a PC with an SSD.

Took a few days to get used to the UI changes, utilising shortcut keys the
same way I do on every other windows installs means I see very little of the
metro/start screen unless I want to.

My most used apps are all pinned to the start bar (eg: Chrome, Notepad++,
etc).

I think most average users probably have 4-5 most used apps, those apps should
be pinned to the task bar. Doing that, it kinda acts a bit like the OS X dock
and so they just need to click straight on those without searching through
menus etc.

------
colkassad
One problem I have had with my various PCs over the years is the file and
shortcut clutter that accumulates on my desktop, a fault purely my own.
Windows took this annoying habit of mine and made it a core feature of Windows
8.

------
melling
IE10 is already close to passing IE8 in market share.

[http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version-ww-
daily-20130407...](http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version-ww-
daily-20130407-20130506)

It would be really nice if Windows users decided that Win 8.1 was the version
for them. Those XP machines have to be pretty old by now. IE10 could easily
hit 25% next year.

~~~
jaredmcateer
Windows 7, which for my uses, is a better OS than Win8, has IE10 as a
recommended update. So for most installations of Windows 7 boxes they will
automatically update to IE10.

------
kijin
I would consider upgrading to Windows 8.1 if they just made Metro the _default
desktop background_ while also keeping the Start button and the taskbar. That
would be an interesting combination, since the desktop background is usually
wasted space anyway. Sort of like the "active desktop" thing that they tried
in Windows 98, but much more elegant. It would also eliminate the nonsense of
having to leave the desktop in order to pin programs to the taskbar.

~~~
mmariani
Completely agree. I don't get this stubborn dichotomy between start menu and
tiles when we can easily have both.

On a side note, I've installed a Windows 8 beta on my Mac about two years ago
and I liked using it. On the other hand I always found the start menu to be a
clunky solution.

------
brudgers
Microsoft will add features to the UI and give users more time to learn Metro.
The comparison to New Coke is a good one, the analysis weak. New Coke gave
CocaCola the cover for switching from sugar to high-fructose corn syrup across
the product line in the US. "Classic" was a new product.

Metro is the right direction. It will just take time for businesses to catch
up. And now the narrative will be about Microsoft's improvements.

------
crsna
What if Mircorsoft had called Windows 8 as some Neo OS v1 (or beta)? What if
they had said that this OS is:

1\. Optimized for low power chips and is very power efficient 2\. Cloud
centric and integrates all the modern breed of sensors like accelerometer,
GPS, proximity, ... 3\. Supports touch and pen inputs as natively as Windows
supports keyboard and mice. 4\. Super fast 5\. Runs your legacy Windows
applications 6\. Supports most of the devices like cameras, scanners, printers
meant to work with Windows 7\. Runs in several form factors 8\. Gives a
familiar .NET and HTML environments to develop applications

I think, calling it Windows has set an expectation for start button and
desktop as the landing screen and led to this widespread disappointment.
Microsoft failed to get users to approach it with a desire to explore. By
making their new OS the mainstream OS shipped with every PC sold (with or
without necessary hardware support), they neither chose the initial seed users
right nor gave the OS a good chance with right devices.

------
stinos
Is it just me, or is this article and the news in it just way too vague to
justify the title? What U-Turn? Pure guesswork yet they make it sound like
nobody will be able to work with Windows anymore.

For all we know MS is just going to add an option to set the desktop as
default instead of the tiles now. Which would be a good thing, and listening
to cutomers, but not quite a U-turn.

------
singold
I've bought a new laptop last week that came with win8 preinstalled.

I feel like I've boutght a very expensive tablet with a big screen and a
keyboard... :P

Really it doesnt feel like a PC, and the desktop is like an app that you use
WTF?!

------
dreen
Can someone explain to me why is Ballmer still in charge, really? Please?

~~~
qompiler
Because MSFT still makes enough profit every quarter.

~~~
igravious
With those two (Windows and Office natch) cash cows a sufficiently tech-savvy
bonobo could CEO Microsoft and turn a profit each and every quarter. Heck,
even I could. The momentum that behemoth has must be unnatural. I don't think
that this (quarterly profit or whatever) should be the metric by which Ballmer
is judged. He should be judged on percentage of penetration into various
market segments or something like that. So: consoles, yay; mobile, boo;
desktop, yay (you can't beat a good monopoly); server, not so much; media
forays, boo; net search, ho-hum; and so forth ...

~~~
skc
So, fun fact.

Ballmer has taken Microsoft from two cash cows...to roughly six in his time
frame as CEO. Take a look at how many billion dollar businesses have come to
fruition under his tenure. You might be surprised.

The guy gets a bad rap, but its annoying that people want to blame him for the
things that are wrong with Microsoft but won't give him credit for the things
he's done right.

~~~
igravious
Sorry, wasn't keeping an eye on replies - I just kind of threw my original
comment out into the ether.

I'd like to ask you though. What are the other 4 (5? 3? you said roughly) cash
cows do you reckon, and in all seriousness are any of them even close in scale
to Windows/Office? Honestly, I mean :)

------
qompiler
I suspect this is just marketing for the upcoming Windows 8.1 (Blue). Which is
more of a L-turn than a U-turn.

------
fumar
My experience with Windows 8 has been through Surface RT. After using iOS,
OSX, and Android for years, going to Windows 8 RT has been fun and easy to
learn. Maybe, its because UI works on a tablet. I look forward to Microsoft
creating a more refined experience around the Metro(modern) interface.

Microsoft dropped the ball on forcing OEMS to create great touch centric
devices and marketing. People purchased PCs expecting their traditional
Windows experience and received something much different.

------
bdg
Malware detected on website. Can someone post the content?

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alan_cx
I am utterly lost when it comes to Windows and people opinions.

Edit: .... and what MS are up to.

I start with the notion that, IMHO, XP SP3 was and remains a great OS. Its
like the OS that Win 95 was building up to. I then replace my main go to desk
top machine and it comes with Vista installed. Im worried because every geek
and his dog hates it. I buy my new machine intending to wipe the HD and
install XP instead. It wrong to hate with out trying, so I give Vista a go. 3
or so years later, Im still using Vista with zero problems. In my eyes its XP
with added stuff and a bit of a fluffing. Fine.

Now, kids get new machines and this time its Windows 7. IMHO, good thing it
was the kids machines because IMHO Win 7 looks like a kids OS. I try to do
some set up stuff and it takes me ages to get anything done. So, that's that
for me. Don't want 7 any where near my computer(s). Although to be fair, the
kids get on fine with it. Next up, last Christmas, more computers for the
kids, laptops with Win 8. All I see its a tablet OS forced on non tablets. Get
by the tablet interface and its mangled Win 7, worse to use and find my way
around than 7 was. Two identical laptops, but both have different issues.
Wireless being the most frustrating.

Right now Im wondering a) why people hate Vista, and b)what my next OS should
be. I want XP, I'm happy enough with Vista, but the idea of Win 7 or 8 fills
me with dread. And if any one says Linux or Mac, I'll die laughing. Neither
even begin to be suitable. (Mac devices are brilliant for the kids, but never
me)

I am NOT a serial MS hater, I have always been happy enough with their
products as long as I never have to use the first release, and wait for the
first service pack and decent drivers. Not great, but the system works. But
now I feel un-catered for. Win 7 and 8 are miles away from what I want and I
can only see it getting worse. It feels like MS have annoyed all the usual
suspect, but now they are going all out to annoy the people who still like
them and their products.

And lastly, why on earth force a tablet UI on to desk tops and lap tops? What
one earth is that about? Why not a core OS, and you just buy a tablet or PC
version?

Like I say, the whole MS thing has me utterly lost. And that is really sad as,
as it turns out, with out realising, I'm a loyal MS customer. But right now,
Im sticking with Vista until I literally cant.

~~~
parasubvert
Yours is the first opinion I've read of someone preferring Vista to Windows 7.
Win7 is pretty much superior to both Vista and XPSP3 in almost every way,
though especially from a usability and secuirty perspective. It's actually not
all that different from Vista in my experience (and you can make it look like
Vista pretty easily, if the color scheme bothers you).

Windows 7 likely is the next XP - people will stick with it for 10+ years if
they can.

In fairness, I gave up and switched to a Mac.

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antonyme
Whoa - I get a malware warning when trying to visit this site with Safari 6.
It seems um.equads.com (presumably linked to from ft.com) is infected!

------
mark_l_watson
I only have one Windows PC (dual boot Ubuntu / Windows 7 laptop). Still, I
like what Microsoft is doing with Windows 8 and hybrid tablets and laptops.
When my two Mac laptops are no longer supporting my work because of
malfunction or obsolescense I will likely buy whatever the next version of
surface pro is.

One thing that I don't understand is why older desktop non-touchscreen PCs
don't default to a Windows 7 style interface.

I would like to have one small device (with a huge external monitor when I
occasionally need it) for everything. Whether that is a small hybrid
tablet/laptop or a powerful cellphone with great docking station support, I
would like one universal device. I was very surprised to find a very
functional Java/Android IDE for my Galaxy S III - no reason why a future more
powerful smartphone with great wireless docking couldn't meet all of my
computing requirements.

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washadjefmad
Paywalled on mobile. Was it really news?

~~~
scholia
No, it contains no news that isn't readily available on other sites, but it
has a linkbait title targeted at the clueless.

------
groundCode
mumble grumble previously posted
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5666844>

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spo81rty
Can't read without registering.

~~~
qqqqqq
FT has this incredibly aggravating policy of forcing registration on mobile
devices. If you're on a mobile device, request the desktop version of the
site, and you should be able to view the content.

