
You Can't Solve the Gender Gap in Tech If You Don't Understand Why It Exists - lasr21
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/reshmasaujani/tech-gender-gap-pipeline-myth
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Simulacra
As a woman in technology, a coder no less, I totally understand the pipeline
problem. Men dominated technology in the very early days, and men made up most
of the workforce. As much as society, government, and education attempt to
force women into STEM fields, it's going to take a while before there are
enough women, with enough experience, to truly equalize compensation. As for
girls opting out of coding, that's ok.. Not all girls want to code, and not
all girls want to take a STEM path, and that should not be see as some
failure.

~~~
curtis
> _Not all girls want to code, and not all girls want to take a STEM path, and
> that should not be see as some failure._

It's also true that not all boys want to code, and not all boys want to take a
STEM path.

But what if a larger percentage of boys want to code or take a STEM path? If
this were so, it would look like a pipeline problem, and it would look like a
pipeline problem that's quite hard to fix. It might actually look like the
reality we currently see.

But wait, it used to be that computer science was almost evenly split between
men and women, right? Where did all those women go?

This is a reasonable question to ask, but it's not the only reasonable
question to ask. Another question to ask would be: 50 years ago, what
percentage of the overall population had computer science degrees? And is that
percentage larger, smaller, or roughly similar to what it is today? I don't
know, but I think it was likely much, much smaller than it is today. It might
be the case that there are more female computer science graduates today as a
percentage of the total population than there was 50 years ago. But how could
that be true, if (as we know) men with computer science degrees now way
outnumber women with computer science degrees?

This isn't really a trick question, the answer is pretty easy: Today there are
a lot more people with computer science degrees. That increase was
disproportionately men, and that's a consequence of a pipeline that is
disproportionately men.

So what's the difference between the pipeline 50 years ago and the pipeline
today?

~~~
bassman9000
_But what if a larger percentage of boys want to code or take a STEM path? If
this were so, it would look like a pipeline problem, and it would look like a
pipeline problem that 's quite hard to fix. It might actually look like the
reality we currently see._

Why is that a problem? Why is it something to fix? Why do we want to achieve
perfect 50% ratios on people's motivations and desires?

edit: typo

~~~
curtis
> _Why is that a problem? Why is it something to fix? Why do we want to
> achieve perfect 50% ratios on people 's motivations and desires?_

I personally don't think it's a problem. The disparity in computer science is
so big that it does, at least, deserve an explanation, however.

------
candiodari
I sometimes wonder if the problem isn't exactly the opposite of what people
think they are. Women are underrepresented in tech because they get _more_
support, not less. More choices, and they get pushed to go for the truly
glamorous choices.

What is glamorous in middle school and high school ? Well, the jobs the people
"in power" at such institutions have, and in their own families. So Mom's job
(the carer's job, because most families have a carer and a provider or at
least have those roles be unbalanced and of course most contact will be with
the carer, not the provider). The teacher's job. Caring jobs in general. And
of course the "in power" jobs on TV. Men are immediately discouraged from
doing that and so they skip ... what of course turns out to be mostly
undesirable roles. Which make these women easily exploitable, and perhaps
there ought to be some discussion of why that is such a big problem for
anyone.

Maybe what needs to happen is we need to start telling women of age 10-12 "you
know, in 10 years, a bit more, you'll need to support yourself, maybe a
family. And as a teacher, carer job, or mom, it'll suck. You'll be low on the
scale, and dependent. Think about it now and save yourself a lot of pain
later".

20 years later (because that's how long it inevitably takes) we'll have a
majority women, because they really do outcompete men on average given the
chance. I mean, I do agree there's no way in hell this will ever happen, but
one can dream.

~~~
sleepysysadmin
>I sometimes wonder if the problem isn't exactly the opposite of what people
think they are. Women are underrepresented in tech because they get more
support, not less. More choices, and they get pushed to go for the truly
glamorous choices.

This is actually an interesting point and I haven't been able to find
information about it.

Lets say we have X amount of women who are going into STEM... but say for
example I used to live in the Detroit area. The universities at the time I was
about to head into post-secondary were offering 'scholarships' where women who
took their first year in engineering, would get the rest of their education
for free and most of the engineering credits would act as wildcard credits
toward any other degree if they chose to switch.

So perhaps we lack women in IT because they went to engineering instead?

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eloisius
"Stop missing the complex issues and relying on the simplified pipeline
cliché" but then immediately invoke the basement-dwelling, hoodie-wearing,
male neckbeard stereotype?

~~~
octokatt
Yes.

Because the focus of the article is about how the gender gap/discrimination in
tech issue is nuanced, and the other is literally talking about default
stereotypes in tech and how they are damaging.

Literally, the article invoked a stereotype, because the overwhelmingly common
stereotype is damaging.

~~~
eloisius
Not sure what you're saying, but it sounds like we're kind of agreeing, maybe?
It just seems pointless to urge that we quit using tired tropes to solve a
problem, but then immediately invoke another trope to make your point.

Are men coding alone in their basements really the problem?

~~~
pseudalopex
Calling out a stereotype is not invoking it.

~~~
joelhoffman
The article claims that prospective girls see "men in hoodies coding alone in
their basements" as role models. That's obviously not an accurate view of
software engineering but is it really the view that teenagers have? If so,
that's a real problem.

~~~
octokatt
Thank you for making the point I was trying to with less words.

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seattle_spring
> Girls in elementary school show equal interest and aptitude as boys when it
> comes to coding

That might be true today, but it's a steaming crock of made-up bullshit if
they're saying it was that way 15 years ago. You know... At the beginning of
the pipeline that would have produced an even distribution today.

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hopler
Gender gap isn't a problem to solve. It may be a symptom of many things, such
as harrassment, discouragement, discrimination, or environmental biases that
make women less comfortable than men. Gender gap is smoke, go find fires the
need to be put out, and solve those. Otherwise you'll slam into a wall because
the "optimal" ratio does not exist and has no consensus, but specific harmful
behaviors and and systems are indefensible.

~~~
catilac
I agree with you. It's frustrating when we focus on symptoms instead of the
root causes, which are deeply encoded in our culture. It just makes it that
much harder.

It's also frustrating when it's not discussed at all. It's hard to bring up
the biases and subtle discrimination that occurs as a PoC without making a
privileged person run for the hills.

I applaud people whose job is focused on bringing change to organizations. I
can't imagine how difficult it is to do this work effectively.

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glun
Lots of opinions, but no data to back it up.

~~~
mammalutte
To be fair the original title starts with "Opinion: You Can't Solve...". But
anyway, it's buzzfeed...

------
president
One stat I've never seen in these types of discussions are how many women are
applying for tech positions vs men. If that number is low then it's probably a
pipeline issue.

~~~
eloisius
I think the article is trying to say that the state of the pipeline is what it
is because of the way that the end of it appears to those who might be in the
beginning of it. Young women aren't going to stay in the pipeline for a career
that looks like they will have a hard time excelling in once they reach
adulthood.

Despite my distaste for the authors invoking basement coder stereotypes, I can
see their point. We can keep blaming the "pipeline" if the industry is rife
with sexism and harassment. Our current state of affairs influences the
pipeline.

~~~
president
Sexism and harassment is even more prevalent in the entertainment industry and
there are plenty of women working in entertainment. Although I agree
sexism/harassment exists in tech, I don't believe it's a valid argument for
why there is a gender gap.

~~~
pseudalopex
Male and female actors rarely compete for the same roles. Many other jobs in
the entertainment industry are dominated by men. Orchestras used to be, but
blind auditions made them more balanced. Just pointing to the entertainment
industry doesn't disprove a connection between sexism and gender imbalance.

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sys_64738
Found this piece very interesting.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/when-computer-
progra...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/when-computer-programming-
was-womens-work/2011/08/24/gIQAdixGgJ_story.html)

