
EU agrees on total ban of bee-harming pesticides - YeGoblynQueenne
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/27/eu-agrees-total-ban-on-bee-harming-pesticides
======
endymi0n
I must admit I find the EU pretty progressive and thought-leading lately -
ironically using the tool progressives despise the most: Regulation.

When they banned all filament lightbulbs, everyone was saying how bad it would
be for the economy, but the industry was just forced to innovate and just a
couple years later everyone is 95% on LEDs.

Farmers will cope - and the demand they create for new solutions will
accelerate supply much faster than any voluntary solution.

~~~
entee
Yes but what will those new solutions be? Will they be better? How will we
know? Most likely scenario: they'll be replaced by some other chemical that on
the surface may be better, but will be far less understood by virtue of being
new. We may well find out years later that it was worse on a whole host of
criteria, and may even be worse on the "don't kill the bees" criteria after
larger scale/more research.

It's easy to assume banning the thing we don't like will yield better outcomes
but that's not necessarily the case. If we want to get rid of chemical risk,
we'll have to get rid of chemicals. If we do that, we'll have to seriously re-
evaluate our agricultural systems and be likely willing to accept higher
prices.

~~~
cortesoft
Getting rid of chemicals? Umm, everything is a chemical. What does that even
mean?

~~~
megaman22
Just like everything is a carcinogen. Damn near everything has to carry a
warning that it contains a chemical known to be a cause cancer. Most
infamously lately, Starbucks coffee.

Thanks California!

~~~
ThurmaUman
> Just like everything is a carcinogen

That's not true (nor equivalent transitively). What does this have to do with
your derangements about California and Starbucks?

~~~
megaman22
Have we collectively forgotten about this mess already?

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-lawsuit-
coffee...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-lawsuit-
coffee/starbucks-coffee-in-california-must-have-cancer-warning-judge-says-
idUSKBN1H5399)

------
bufferoverflow
The scariest news I heard last year was not the North Korea nuclear testing,
but the insect mass collapse by 82%. This is insane. We need to seriously
reconsider the use of all insecticides, not just the bee-harming ones.

[https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/18/warning-...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/18/warning-
of-ecological-armageddon-after-dramatic-plunge-in-insect-numbers)

~~~
mattmanser
Doesn't it look like the initial reading was the anomaly? Like the 1989 number
is twice as big compared to 1991.

In 1991 they could have reported "insects numbers drop 50% in two years!!!!".

I mean there's a definite decline, but it doesn't look like an imminent
collapse.

~~~
Arnt
The decline is really noticeable. (I live in Germany.) You can go bicycling in
the countryside in summer and never get any insects in your mouth. You can
drive your car and not wipe off your windshield.

If you look at the graph you can adda trend line for poor years and one for
good. Both point steeply downwards, say -30%/decade. Extrapolate to human
lifetimes, and you get a 96% drop in one human lifetime. Wow.

~~~
drag0nballz
>> You can drive your car and not wipe off your windshield

This. When I was a kid in California a quick trip in summer and it would be
carnage on the window and grill. Now I can drive for hours and not get a
single bug. Part of this could be increasing traffic. But it is really
dramatic and scary.

~~~
adrianN
Another part of this could be improved aerodynamics of cars. Maybe a larger
part of the insects gets routed around the cars in a laminar flow.

~~~
wiredfool
Could be, but bikes on the roof of the car see a lot less carnage as well. It
used to be gross, and you’d need to wash your bike after an hour on the roof,
but now, not so.

There even used to be spandex covers you could out over the front of your bike
on the roof rack, but I haven’t seen one in years.

------
exabrial
From a family of hive owners: Not sure this will have any sort of meaningful
impact except raise prices elsewhere... It's a grand gesture, but the science
just isn't there. The real problems are mites, which we do not have any sort
of effective treatment for, and decreased biodiversity as African bees
continue to push into North America.

~~~
narrator
What would convince you that neonicotinoids kill bees? A study recently done
at Purdue University perhaps?[1]

Pesticides are absurdly politicized. The amount of ridicule and PR flak
pesticide critics get is insane.

[1] [http://pollinatorstewardship.org/wp-
content/uploads/2017/06/...](http://pollinatorstewardship.org/wp-
content/uploads/2017/06/Krupke-et-al-2017-neonic-corn-seeds.pdf)

~~~
lostlogin
I don’t dispute that the spray kills bees. Honey bee numbers are so high here
that the numbers are causing problems (decreased honey harvests, disease
outbreaks and worker shortages). Honey bees are not in decline her in New
Zealand.

~~~
ajmurmann
Does New Zealand have a smaller percentage of farmland or even cultivated land
in general than Europe? Maybe there is less pesticide usage per area?

~~~
lostlogin
I would guess so. Particularly important for the honey industry here is
regenerating bush, as the quick growing manuka supplies the bees with the
nectar for the lucrative honey. The use of neonicatinoids is quite heavily
regulated though traces do appear in honey.
[http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objecti...](http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11934014)

The other interesting development is the use of Fipronil to kill wasps. The
usage has really helped but you’d have to wonder about having more of it in
the environment.

------
ciconia
About bloody time. I live in the country side and can see what's happening,
though where I live nature is doing ok. City folks though have no idea how bad
things are.

~~~
rjsw
City dwellers can see the effects too, even if they only drive between cities
on motorways, their windscreen won't have nearly as many dead bugs on it as in
previous years.

~~~
kevmo
I'm driving across the country right now, and I actually did notice that there
seem to be far fewer bugs on windshields than I remembered during similar
trips as a child. I just chalked it up to things being more vivid from my
childhood memory, though -- are there really that many fewer bugs?

~~~
Gnarl
Yes - its happening in all wireless societies (hint!).

~~~
rkuykendall-com
(insinuation of causation without citation!)

------
marze
Why take chances with something as important as bees.

Good job Europe.

------
MattBlissett
This weekend (and another in May) has the City Nature Challenge[1], which
encourages people to photograph wildlife -- that definitely includes insects!
-- and upload the photos to iNaturalist[2], where naturalists will help to
identify them. Although I find people usually help identify whatever I
photograph all year.

The observations can then be used in research, since iNaturalist sends their
data to GBIF.org (the Global Biodiversity Information Facility). For example,
this paper[3] used 120429 records from GBIF, which very likely included some
records originating at iNaturalist.

I haven't read the paper in any detail, but the researchers probably started
from something like this query [4] of hundreds of thousands of bee records,
before filtering further.

[1] [http://citynaturechallenge.org/](http://citynaturechallenge.org/)

[2] [https://www.inaturalist.org/](https://www.inaturalist.org/)

[3]
[https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ecolecon.2016.03.023](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ecolecon.2016.03.023)

[4]
[https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/search?taxon_key=1357156&tax...](https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/search?taxon_key=1357156&taxon_key=1357207&taxon_key=1344087&taxon_key=1341976&taxon_key=1340542&taxon_key=1340301&taxon_key=1340405&taxon_key=1340503&taxon_key=1335648&taxon_key=5039354&taxon_key=5039293&taxon_key=5039314)

------
jk2323
I consider this good news.

May I recommend an article by Taleb:

The Precautionary Principle
[https://arxiv.org/pdf/1410.5787.pdf](https://arxiv.org/pdf/1410.5787.pdf)

Contrary to some of the posters here, I don't think there is STRONG evidence
that neonicotinoids are causing this but there is some evidence. Bases on the
Precautionary Principle it is a good idea to ban this kind of pesticides for
now.

------
notadoc
Smart for many reasons, the USA should do the same. Though because of lobbying
and industry/gov revolving doors that seems highly unlikely to happen. Instead
we'll probably be told "the science is undecided" and that we must "debate"
the "science" for a few decades, and then eventually someone will politicize
bees and pesticides with some nonsensical focus group generated slogans like
"entitled pollen queens" and "plant-helping juice" so that half the country
suddenly hates bees and loves pesticides, insuring nothing ever gets done
about the problem.

~~~
tptacek
In North America, honey bees aren't wildlife, they're livestock. Banning
substances to protect them would be a little bit like banning substances to
protect beef steers. You could imagine it being reasonable, but the bar for
harm would be set pretty high --- especially since the people applying the
pesticide are also in large part the people bearing the brunt of its impact on
bees.

~~~
bgorman
In North America bees are mostly an agricultural tool. Honeybees are the only
reliable way to polinate large numbers of crops effectively. Bees will be
trucked around all over the country for an entire growing season - always
heading where pollinating is needed. The threat isn't so much with our bees as
it is with our ability to continue industrial agriculture.

~~~
tptacek
Commercial beekepers lose hives over the winter --- always have. "Colony
collapse disorder" is defined as an _increase in the rate_ at which they lose
colonies. Either way, the commercial response is the same: you buy new queens
and split colonies. Has the price of new queens skyrocketed? Is there reason
to believe livestock management techniques won't adapt?

~~~
DFHippie
I was a beekeeper in North America. I've given up. Buying new nucs for your
hives is expensive.

------
Gnarl
When those pesticides are gone and the bees are _still_ dying, then they'll
_have_ to stop ignoring the effects of microwave radiation on insect life,
bees, bats etc.

~~~
kaybe
Do you have any sources or data for this claim?

~~~
Gnarl
Many scientific references collected here: [https://ehtrust.org/science/bees-
butterflies-wildlife-resear...](https://ehtrust.org/science/bees-butterflies-
wildlife-research-electromagnetic-fields-environment/)

------
mac01021
How does a ban like this tend to work? The chemicals can no longer be sold in
stores? Or you can buy it but are not allowed to apply it to your fields?

~~~
toyg
FTA: "will mean they can only be used in closed greenhouses."

So you will be allowed to buy it, but you cannot use it on open fields.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I hope it'll be enforced, not like incandescent lightbulbs, which, months
after the ban, became available again in every store as a light source "for
basements and garages", with a label that says "do not use at home!".

~~~
gmueckl
Where did that happen? I don't see incandescent lightbulbs anywhere here.

~~~
dbrgn
In Switzerland you can buy them as "heat lamps".

~~~
pluma
Switzerland is not part of the EU though.

~~~
dbrgn
No, but a lot of the restrictions (including the ban of incandescent bulbs)
apply in Switzerland too:
[http://www.w-f.ch/wfch/de/eh/fachinfos/normen_und_verordnung...](http://www.w-f.ch/wfch/de/eh/fachinfos/normen_und_verordnungen/15801/index.php)

------
dghughes
I just buzzed through that story but I recall hearing on one of the radio
science shows here in Canada about bee and neonicotinoids. It's not just that
neonicotinoids harm bees if they happen to come in contact with it but bees
are actually strongly attracted to neonicotinoids on plants. There is
something about it that bees are drawn too. It doubly bad for bees.

------
AtomicOrbital
Loss of bees is just the tip of the iceberg ... insects generally have largely
vanished even from the countryside here in upstate New York ... in NYC going
back to the Nile Virus scare from 20 years ago the city has been performing
routine aerial insect spraying so today there is a noticeable lack of any
insects, no mosquitoes no flies no butterflies ... problem is this total drop
off of insects has also happened hundreds of miles from the city ... as a
child I used to see tons of flying insects on any country hike however today I
see a tiny fraction of those insect species ... this is hard evidence

------
briandear
At my house in France, I am building some outdoor fountains. I notice large
numbers of bees dead in the water just a few weeks ago and on an ongoing
basis. Since I’m in the middle of agricultural land, pesticides were the
likely culprit — at least according to my gardener. There is also a disturbing
lack of birds. There are birds, but far fewer than I would expect compared to
rural areas in which I have been that aren’t in the middle of cherry orchards
and vineyards.

This seems, a first glance, a good decision. I’d much rather the EU doing this
sort of regulation instead of chasing CO2 boogeymen by banning high powered
vaccum cleaners or banning certain types of tea kettles.

------
slang800
Last time the EU tried banning pesticides it did nothing to help with bee
populations. These regulators have no clue what they're doing.

[https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/01/27/pests-
invade-e...](https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/01/27/pests-invade-
europe-after-neonicotinoids-ban-with-no-benefit-to-bee-health/)

~~~
lyschoening
The "Genetic Literacy Project" is funded by a right-wing religious foundation
that mixes religion and science to advance theological opinions.

If you open the original Guardian article, you have to look no further than
the third paragraph to read why the EU concluded that the previous ban was not
enough.

------
mistrial9
very noticeable and definite reduction of insects, spiders and birds over the
last two decades in SF Bay Area.. mass spraying of the insecticide Malathion
over the area was definitely a turning point, among many factors

[http://www.unz.com/print/CalJournal-1981apr-00137/?View=PDF](http://www.unz.com/print/CalJournal-1981apr-00137/?View=PDF)

------
AIX2ESXI
It seems that the EU is ahead of the curve to other governments in terms of
regulations. Perhaps other governments will notice when Europe's bee
populations recovers and the threat of unpollinated crops no longer looms over
them.

------
mathieubordere
Great news

------
morsch
Finally.

------
hahamrfunnyguy
Good. Better to bee on the safe side then continue using them.

------
eBombzor
I am guessing this ban includes diatomaceous earth?

I don’t believe you can actually get rid of bed bugs without it.

~~~
pjc50
No, it's just neonicotinoids, not everything that could concievably kill a
bee.

------
throwaway84742
Wouldn’t the bugs just eat all the crops then? I mean, sure they can just
import their potatoes from eg Egypt, but guess what, those potatoes will be
sprayed against the Colorado potato beetle, because without that the crop has
no chance at all.

~~~
bufferoverflow
I think we can develop robots to kill the bugs on the crops. With like lasers.
It doesn't seem like complex problem.

Seems it's much better than spraying insecticides that end up everywhere.

------
kokey
I suppose this is the one of the reasons farmers in the UK will be glad that
the UK is leaving the EU, because the neonicotinoids are mainly used as seed
coverings on rapeseed (which is the crop that most of the vegetable
food/cooking oil is made from) and winter cereals to prevent seeds and
seedlings from specific insects and the pesticide has broken down within
weeks, long before the time bees do their rounds and is never sprayed on the
crops. It also prevents the use of a lot of other known to be harmful
pesticides and increased spraying.

Also, all the studies in the UK that I have seen could not determine any
statistically significant impact of neonicotinoids on the bee populations,
because it was impossible to detect due to the much more significant impact of
a season's weather on honey bees. It really feels like politics is leading the
science here and I suspect this will come out in the courts.

~~~
YeGoblynQueenne
The UK (well; Michael Gove) has promised to back a total ban on
neonicotinoids:

[https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/nov/09/uk-
will-...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/nov/09/uk-will-back-
total-ban-on-bee-harming-pesticides-michael-gove-reveals)

 _The UK will back a total ban on insect-harming pesticides in fields across
Europe, the environment secretary, Michael Gove, has revealed.

The decision reverses the government’s previous position and is justified by
recent new evidence showing neonicotinoids have contaminated the whole
landscape and cause damage to colonies of bees. It also follows the revelation
that 75% of all flying insects have disappeared in Germany and probably much
further afield, a discovery Gove said had shocked him._

Like I say, that was Michael Gove who said that. So we'll never know for sure
until we know for sure.

