

Ask HN: Please review my startup Pretty Graph - revorad
http://prettygraph.com/

======
edanm
A few random thoughts, as I write them. Disclaimer: after looking it over, I'm
not really interested in using the product (right now, at least), I'm talking
about the process up to that realization.

* The design of the front page itself is nice and pretty in general. Having said that, there are a few problems.

* The initial pitch is clear (make pretty graphs), the first two questions I had were "so what does this software look like" and "what would I use this for".

* To answer the second question, I clicked on the big "Blogger" button. For some reason, the text _above_ it was updated, totally not what I was expecting (and I was close to missing it completely). I'd change that.

* The text "Click on the red button to sign up for a free beta account." is kind of superfluous. I'd remove it, the button is pretty self-explanatory).

* At this point I would normally just close the tab, since the three points you made for bloggers didn't seem too interesting. But I kept looking, and:

* Apparently, you can click on "Learn More". _This_ page has most of the stuff I was looking for on the front page, like a video showing the software, and larger explanations on what it's good for.

* I would either make the Learn More button stand out much more, or (even better) put its content on the home page. Also, I'd put a "home" button next to the "Learn More" button and have it highlighted, to make it clearer that it's a "tabbing interface" and not just background noise.

* If you're putting the video on the front page, I would tweak it a little to make it more focused on showcasing the actual software (skip the whole login process, just get to where data becomes graphs).

Anyways, those are my quick first thoughts. Definitely looks interesting, but
I'm guessing your hardest challenge will be to convince people they should use
your software instead of Excel, all the more reason to put a video showcasing
why your software is better smack-dab on the front page.

Best of luck to you on your startup!

~~~
revorad
Thanks a lot edanm. Those are really useful points. I should have a nice
introductory video ready later this week which I will put up on the homepage.
I will make a more prominent link to the Learn More page.

Edit: I replaced the "click the red button" text with a link to the Learn More
page. Thanks!

~~~
edanm
Happy to help.

One more suggestion that I see getting made a lot: forget signup, let me make
a graph in one click. I wouldn't necessarily put it on the home page (have to
think about it), but definitely make it so I can get to your software in one
click.

Also, preload the graph that I get with data that is easy to erase, just so I
can immediately see what a graph looks like. This is almost like putting a
screenshot of the product, except it's infinitely better.

~~~
revorad
Yes, I expected people on HN to not like the signup hurdle :-) I will
definitely make it easier for people to try it out.

Preloading a graph is a good idea, will do that too.

Thanks so much for taking the time to write. I really appreciate it.

------
pclark
it's loading _really really really_ slowly.

I don't like this sentence: "Make great graphs and charts easily on the web."

Why not "Easily make great graphs and charts for the web - it's simple, and
free"

Your transitions of the graph examples are too fast, and I can't manually
click through them. they're also not that interesting. got any interesting
data to plot?

The "click here to learn more and see it in action" feels like a distraction
from the sign up button. do you need both? why not put that link below the
charts, it feels like if the user cares enough to focus on the slideshow they
might want to read more. You shouldn't really need an additional page to
explain your service though.

Whats your nearest competitor? Guess its like, Excel? What are the pain points
there and how do you solve them awesomely?

The blogger/student/designer links are too subtle, it isn't clear what they
update. (eg: scroll down 20% and click them - nothing happens)

There is probably too much text. Try stripping out all the detail for each
benefit (eg: Works with popular data formats) and have a simple bullet list of
every feature. maybe tapping them shows more information regarding them to the
right.

Chances are different people care about different features, it might be clever
to reorganize bullet points based on what role they tap, eg: designers might
care about themes, academics about latex, marketeer about pdfs.

From a design point of view I think the site looks nice, the logo at the top
is maybe too high and pushes your content down 75px too much, the buttons are
quite ugly. The twitter button stands out a bit too much and the free sign up
button doesn't really pop - I like green for primary CTA.

The 6 examples of visualisations aren't clear and feel like I should click
them and a light box will pop up showing an example.

the sign up page needs some polish. make the fonts consistent, change the
heading from "Pretty Graph Basic Account Beta" to "Pretty Graph Registration"
or some such. Scrap the line about the pricing, capture the data then tell
them. When i clicked "sign up" it redirected me to a 403 for /users.

The "Creating account" text is too obscure, it should probably be a spinner, a
nice rule of thumb is that if you need a spinner - do it faster.

i just accidentally reloaded, so i'll give more feedback in 15 minutes when
the page has returned ;)

disclaimer: i am math retarded and charts confuse me. i do however know a
thing or two about product messaging/marketing (IMHO)

~~~
jamie_ca
I agree that generic charts aren't that enticing. Try to find some interesting
data sets, and plot those.

~~~
revorad
Thanks Jamie. I will start updating the site with some good data sets.

~~~
pclark
make a faux chart based on efficiency of using your service vs excel and how
it saves tons of money.

~~~
revorad
What a kickass idea!

------
jorangreef
Make the homepage the app. There must be no marketing. You arrive at
<http://prettygraph.com> and there's your new graph creator already up and
running. Once you've created your graph (using the interface to add data
points, or to import data from a uri or file upload) you can then choose to
add an email address and password to enable changes to be made later, see all
graphs you've made etc.

Don't focus on a "target market". Focus on making the best graph creator. The
target markets will gravitate to you naturally if your graphs look the best
and are the easiest to create.

~~~
revorad
Thank you. That was actually my very first version. Perhaps I need to go back
to doing that.

And thanks for reminding my goal - to make the best graph creator.

~~~
jorangreef
Some more ideas: when in doubt, go for consumers, the every day Joe who needs
a graph in their presentation but forgot how to use Excel charts or couldn't
figure out how to get the Google Chart Api to return a result. Don't worry
about building the next WolframAlpha for charts. Don't worry about a developer
API. Make sure you have a great interface for adding a few data points and
getting a graph back. Even better, make it real-time, as you add a data-point
the graph adjusts or bends or morphs. Keep it simple. Focus on eliminating
things.

~~~
revorad
The problem with going for consumers is that I don't see them paying for
something like this. I agree about keeping it simple though.

~~~
jorangreef
Not all consumers will pay, but like Flickr, you can serve consumers and
charge the loyal "pro" user subset. Focus on the basic interface first. Add
the advanced features later.

------
freshfey
\- I would change "buy" into "pricing", I thought it was a downloadable
product at first sight.

\- Maybe you could change the design into a more corporate look, to attract
business users.

\- I tend to forget data on my home computer a lot, with your product, that
wouldn't happen. Market this! - maybe even with a "forgot your powerpoint
presentation at home?" "you just have 20 min. until that important
presentation?" "use prettygraph now, and the presentation is a wrap!" - not
exactly in these words, but you get the point :)

Good luck!

~~~
revorad
Excellent point about forgetting data/powerpoint! I will definitely add that.

Thanks!

------
skm
The Next Best Alternative to using Pretty Graph would be using Excel, for most
people. How much better is Pretty Graph? Better enough to convince people to
"pay" the extra cost (of using something new, via a web interface, rather than
something they're familiar with running quickly on their computer, probably in
the same place as their data sits)?

I'd suggest thinking about how Prezi came up with an offering that is
sufficiently much better than Powerpoint to persuade some people to make the
switch (or at least give it a try). What about animated graphs, a la Hans
Rosling (see TED talks).

~~~
revorad
Of course, Excel is the default. However, I'm aiming to solve use cases which
are either really hard or not possible to do in Excel or can't be done very
well in Excel:

Making multiple panel graphs, boxplots, plots with error bars, heatmaps etc.
Very useful for quickly summarising large amounts of data.

In research, a lot of people spend a lot of time adjusting figure margins and
title sizes etc. I want to save them time by giving them something that just
works.

Applying the same graph theme or formatting to a batch of data files. I'm
trying to bring the power of R scripting to the masses who do not have any
interest in learning programming.

A lot of people, such as PR and marketing firms, specifically don't want to
use Excel to make charts. They use nicer looking alternatives (mostly Flash
based solutions). I am making a simple web-version for them.

Those are some examples, there are more.

~~~
adw
Our experience (at Timetric) is that selling visualization as a direct benefit
is a real challenge. The people who know what a boxplot is are comfortable
with Origin or R or whatever: everything else either doesn't care, or doesn't
know they should care, or doesn't have the budget to care. What'll be critical
for you is communicating a value proposition which gets past that. How does
using PrettyGraph make you money?

The Verifiable deadpool post is an eye-opener, too, as to the dynamics of this
market: [http://stuartroseman.com/post/619953720/out-with-the-old-
bus...](http://stuartroseman.com/post/619953720/out-with-the-old-business-in-
with-the-new).

~~~
revorad
Thanks Andrew. In my limited experience in research, a lot of the most
brilliant people were not interested in _looking_ at anything to do with code
(such as R). Others who didn't mind would rather spend their time doing their
core research than programming, but they had no choice.

I am trying to build something which can save such people time.

Outside research, I have been contacted by a few different business people,
who said they would love to use something like my product. There are some
alternatives like Tableau Public out there (which is admittedly more than just
a graph maker) but costs a lot.

I did read the Verifiable post but the key point there (as the name suggests)
is that data quality killed them. They were trying to be a databank. Pretty
Graph is not. It's just a website, where you put in your data and get graphs
out.

Anyway, I'm sure I could learn more from your experience at Timetric. Are you
going to the HN meetup this week? I'd love to have a chat.

~~~
adw
In that case you're in a head-on battle with the Google Visualization API and
a couple of other players - iCharts (<http://www.icharts.net/>), Wondergraphs
etc.

There's definitely something in this space, though.

~~~
revorad
Google visualization API is not for end users, but I suppose there could be
services built on top of that (although I haven't seen any yet). Thanks for
pointing to iCharts and Wondergraphs. I hadn't seen them before.

~~~
adw
Google Spreadsheets (and the stuff coming down the pike like Google Fusion
Tables) is, though. Really, you're competing with Excel (plus custom
styles/plugins) and with Google Docs, I reckon.

------
sdfx
As I see it, you have a problem convincing people of the value of your
service, particularly the value over a different solution (i.e. Excel). I like
your Video on the Blog page and I'd move this to the first page. However, a
scatter graph can easily be drawn in Excel - maybe add a more "awesome"
example?

I don't know what you think of the freemium model, but it could be an
alternative to your free trail. It could make sense to introduce a free
product category with maybe 10 free graphs and datasets with less than n
elements. This way, customers aren't bound by the 30 days and have more time
to warm to your product.

You write that there are differences in the design themes across the different
products (basic, designer, premium)? I'd explain the difference in detail -
you could use a check list of the available features - so that it's clear why
premium is better.

~~~
jorangreef
It's not a problem of convincing people. It's a problem of thinking you need
to convince them. All this convincing is getting in the way. Just let them use
it right there on the home page and spend your time improving your app, not
your marketing. Ever seen any Excel marketing?

~~~
jorangreef
By the way, I think you're onto something great. Everyone will one day use a
web-based graph creator. And it could probably be simpler than you think. Make
it easy for Steve Jobs to add a graph to his next presentation. He's not going
to need to import a massive data file. He's going to want a few data points.
He's going to want the best looking graphs you can imagine.

~~~
revorad
Hey jorangreef, thanks for your comments. I especially liked your conversation
with yourself :D

Having just the application itself on the homepage was in fact my very first
ugly version. A couple of people have mentioned it now, and I'm wondering if
thats what I should do again.

------
taitems
From a design perspective, your fonts really don't degrade well on Windows.
Your Lucida Grande just degrades to (very) BIG old ugly Arial without a line-
height or size set. Also, your Avant Garde "See Plans and Pricing" defaults to
Times New Roman.

EDIT: Also you have spelled Marketer: "Marketeer".

~~~
revorad
Thanks for the heads up on the font.

I believe Marketeer and Marketer are both acceptable.

~~~
taitems
Well I'll be. I've never seen that word before in my life but it appears in
dictionaries!

------
btmorex
It's been like 45 seconds and it still hasn't loaded so you should probably
figure out performance first.

~~~
revorad
I'm sorry about that. I'm trying to fix it now.

------
davidwilson
There are plenty of other great (and by the looks of it maybe even better)
graphing utilities out there - including Excel.

It looks like people have covered some of the other points I would have raised
- except for these two. (1) Your audience already owns Excel, and they won't
stop owning if they use your service. Don't forget that. (2) People use graphs
to show other people their conclusions. They do it using either Powerpoint (or
Prezi etc, but mostly Powerpoint.) If your charts can't plug in to a
presentation utility, you'll lose a lot of users. If they _can_ plug into a
presentation utility, you need to make that clear up front.

\- Take a look at oomfo (from the fusion charts guys) to get an idea of what
I'm thinking of.

~~~
revorad
Thanks for your feedback, David.

The comparison with Excel always comes up first. I'm not trying to suddenly
move people from using Excel. I'm making something which does what Excel
cannot do well or easily. I guess I need to make this message clear on my
site.

Pretty Graph has a PDF download feature which addresses the presentation
issue. I can also add copy saying that you can use the images also in
Powerpoint. I am also looking to add a direct export to PPT feature.

I had a quick look at oomfo. It looks nice, but it's not web-based and
although I'm not saying desktop apps are no good, I've chosen the online
space.

Other planned features, which should hopefully be useful (and "viral") are
easy sharing and collaborating on graphs.

------
kadavy
Very cool idea. The graphs really aren't that pretty yet, though. They need to
be really breathtaking. I'm imagining it being open to designers to submit
themes, for which they can earn money.

~~~
revorad
Thanks kadavy. I'm working on improving the graphs; there are daily updates.
It will be open to designers once I am happy with the core working alright.

------
revorad
Hi guys,

Last year, after getting inspired by a lot of you here on HN and dreaming for
a long time, I took the plunge and started my own startup Pretty Graph -
<http://prettygraph.com>. It is a simple web-based tool to make graphs. It is
aimed at a number of different users, as I'm still trying to figure out the
best target market. I'd much appreciate any feedback.

Thanks,

Hrishi

------
tdupree
Hrishi, on the "Learn More" page I think there is some content on the tail end
of the "How does it work?" video that accidentally got left in the video.
Starting at minute 2:55 you can see yourself editing it in Windows Movie Maker
and then the first 30 seconds of the video again.

~~~
revorad
Thanks for pointing that out. That's really embarassing. I do apologise.

EDIT: Video fixed now.

------
roundsquare
The video seemed to start over when I watched it.

Otherwise, I think you need to show some examples that make my mouth water.

~~~
revorad
Thanks for your feedback. I'm just fixing the video (thanks for watching it
all the way through!).

Mouth watering graphs in the works.

EDIT: Video fixed now.

------
dotcoma
no freemium offer? why not?

~~~
revorad
The pricing is still an experiment. I am not sure about having a free option
for everyone, but I might make it free for students.

~~~
rezrovs
How would you verify that those who sign up as students are in fact students?
It may be simpler to go with the other suggestion of x number of free graphs
per month.

~~~
revorad
Can't I use university email addresses as proof? Of course that means
university staff (professors) could also get it for free.

