
U.S. Senators Advocate H-1B Freeze for 60 Days or Longer - WrightStuff
https://insights.dice.com/2020/05/11/u-s-senators-advocate-h-1b-freeze-60-days/
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curiousllama
This is a backdoor immigration cut, nothing more. COVID is irrelevant.

Remember that it's not just new entrants that need H1B processing: it's
immigrants currently in the country that need to transfer their visa type
(e.g., former students moving from OPT to H1B). What, are they supposed to
leave or risk being denied a visa forevermore?

Not to mention, they've already paused green card processing and shut down
most offices that process F1 (student) visas. The US just doesn't want high-
skilled immigrants anymore.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Some, but not all, H1B immigrants are highly skilled. Some are fodder for body
shops, some are used to avoid having to pay market rate. This behavior has
been documented in great detail.

I do not believe it unreasonable to take measures to encourage hiring of
citizens over importing workers when official unemployment is near 15%, and
unofficially, closer to 20%. Your typical tech company is likely to be
sophisticated enough to onboard skilled workers outside the US and support
them working remotely, in which case, they are not impacted by this policy.

~~~
raverbashing
Then change the rules to make it more difficult for the body shops maybe?

Doesn't seem too hard

~~~
toomuchtodo
> Doesn't seem too hard

Apparently it is, as it has not been done.

~~~
raverbashing
Politically hard most likely, instead of technically hard.

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screye
Genuine question for anti-H1B people on this thread.

 __Do you think there should be a pathway to immigration for someone not from
the US ? __(Not just Indians /Chinese)

_______________________________________________________

Because honestly, there really isn't any at all. If all work visas are
supposed to not have a pathway to citizenship. Then how is someone supposed to
make it in ?

The diversity PR ? Which is almost explicitly an Anti-big country immigration
visa, which even then, only has a 0.5% success rate ? (It is kind of hilarious
that the visa thinks EU countries add more diversity to the US than those from
other nations)

Or the investor PR ? ie. bribe your way into a GC.

Or be religious minister ? Because for some reason priests are a more
productive part of society than people with PhDs.

Or should they be refugees. Which is also GC that has fallen out of favor
among US politicians.

You say the H1B is a backdoor. But look at the other categories. People in the
arts and general administration abuse the Eb1 GC. On the other hand it is
almost impossible to get the EB1 GB without a willing employer (usually needs
to be in research) and a top tier PhD.

Also, it is not just Indians. How do you think Europeans have historically
immigrated to the US. Come over on an employment visa and then get a GC. Just
because the ethnicity of the applicants has changed, doesn't mean that the
system wasn't always in place. It is referred to as dual-intent for a reason.

I understand if the US wants to suddenly stop being a country that wants
immigrants. But, they continue to sell the American dream, their inclusivity
and proudly claim the the creations of 1st and 2nd gen immigrants as their
own. That, makes them seem really hypocritical.

~~~
DrScump

      honestly, there really isn't any pathway to immigration at all
    

Honestly... the USA makes a _million_ new immigrant citizens a year, year over
year.

------
Upvoter33
Of course, doing so will do very little to nothing for American workers.
Companies who want the top talent will go where the top talent lives, and this
may just speed up the process (one example could be a simple adjustment to
hire more folks in Vancouver, for example). Somehow, some people in the US
forget that yesterday's immigrant is today's citizen.

~~~
Traster
I'm not straight out saying you're wrong, but I don't see the evidence that
this is obviously true. There's an equally compelling line of logic that by
removing H1-B visas you create less supply for those jobs in the US, driving
up wages for local workers and encouraging more local people to train up to
take those jobs - because of the higher rewards. Will companies just
immediately decide to hire in another country? Well, some of them might, but
if wages go up 5% is that really going to force companies overseas? Running an
international organisation is hugely expensive. So maybe wages go up and
basically no jobs are lost to overseas. What if removing these options to
basically steal talent from overseas meant companies needed to sponsor more
university programmes to get the qualified staff they need?

I find it quite compelling that the first order effect of H1-B visas is to
give large corporations an easy way of driving down wages by hiring cheaper
overseas workers who are willing to take lower wages than the locals in order
to earn their citizenship, and that benefits company profit margins at the
expense of native workers.

I'm willing to believe that the net effect is actually different and you get
some magical efficiency effect that makes everyone richer, but I think that
actually needs to be demonstrated rather than assumed.

~~~
curiousllama
I recently worked as a consultant doing back office talent sourcing work. It
is a stated, explicit ambition in the industry to offshore & automate as much
work as humanly possible.

You're thinking, reasonably, that companies aren't going to go through the
trouble of immediately opening a whole office in Bangalore for a few QA
testers. You're right. They're either going to (1) offshore to an MSP (2)
automate or (3) just not do QA, and (without realizing) just let bad code get
written.

Now that IT is working remotely anyway, why the heck NOT call Cap Gemini?
Presto - we have QA. Who cares if they're in Penang?

~~~
Traster
The obvious answer is that the companies that have their QA in Penang fairly
quickly learn that the 7,500 engineers in Penang that you got for the price of
20 engineers in the US not only don't do the QA correctly, they're actively
making the quality worse by DDOSing the engineers in the US with jira tickets.
Then you find out that the senior management outsourced core activities to
Penang, and before you know it you're on 14nm++++++ and angry US engineers are
being forced to fly to Penang and figure it out, and the CEO is being
blackmailed into a resignation using an office affair as a pretext.

May have gotten a bit too specific with my hypothetical there.

~~~
raverbashing
But it doesn't need to be Penang

It can be Canada. It can be Mexico or South America.

It can be Eastern Europe.

Yes, it will be more expensive (but maybe not overall), and there will be
fewer "yes-men" and less bottom-kissing but more actual work done and maybe
better communications since time zones overlap.

------
mmaurizi
Choosing a nonpartisan description of "U.S. Senators" obscures the fact that
all of the senators are from the same party (Republican).

An example of where the journalistic commitment to being politically neutral
harms the ability to properly inform the reader.

~~~
dariusj18
Plus, it has not context for how many. Saved anyone a read, it's 4.

~~~
SauciestGNU
It's 2 highly influential senators (Tom Cotton and Chuck Grassley), one up-
and-comer (Hawley) and then Ted Cruz. I'd especially pay attention to Senator
Cotton, there's a lot of chatter about him having presidential ambitions, and
it wouldn't surprise me to see him become the figurehead of the post-Trump
GOP.

------
naveen99
Interestingly, employers prefer to layoff citizens before h1-b’s because of
the illiquidity in the h1-b system.

~~~
koheripbal
...and also because they're cheaper. H1-B's are like indentured servants.

------
JackPoach
I think this is quite good in a strange way. Nobody was happy about H1-B. Tech
companies were complaining that quotas were too low. Skilled workers
complained that this is a ploy to keep costs down, especially in academia.
I've once heard an American PhD say 'I am not afraid of competing with very
smart Chinese or Indian scientists. But they are making me compete with 10
mediocre Chinese or Indian PhDs and nobody can win this competition.' So, why
not blow the entire H1-B system up and maybe in 3-5 years, once the crisis is
over, something better emerges.

~~~
ramraj07
I am one of those Indian PhDs. Many of my friends are. I suppose it's easy for
you and your friend (let's not get into an argument about who's stupider) to
sip some coffee and say let's blow it up and wait for a few years when you
have no personal effect.

Meanwhile I'm back in India, and completely lost in my mind on where and how I
should proceed with my career.

I'm of the view that a country can choose whatever the hell they want about
who to let in. Just stick to some rules with some consistency though. I came
to America believing that there was a path that works a certain way, and that
I could Hope for a better life in America if I follow it and work hard.
Clearly your country hasn't kept your side of a gentleman's agreement there.

I suppose your friend is right, we Indian abd Chinese PhDs are idiots to think
America is a fairer country than wherever we come from.

~~~
JackPoach
You are assuming that I am a US citizen, but I am not. I was once an immigrant
too, lived in California for 6 years and ironically wasn't able to get an
immigrant visa, because while on J1 visa I was sponsored by US State
Department. I had to apply for an immigrant visa in Canada and was just one
point short. So I returned to my home country. I was bummed too, my life was
totally turned upside down. That was 20 years ago. So I feel you. BUT I am
happy my life turned out the way it did. I am 40+ years old. I own my own
home. I have zero debt. I have family and two kids. My medical expenses are
next to zero (whatever they take out in my taxes). American political leaders,
including presidents turned out to be more batshit crazy than the mediocre
idiots that are running my home country (and less corrupt, too). So NOT
getting a green card was the best thing that happened to me. It turns out that
American dream is more dream that American for many people, and living in
Eastern Europe is quite good. Sorry for sharing my personal story, but so that
you know where I am personally coming from.

~~~
ramraj07
I'm definitely glad it worked out for you, I hope you do agree you wasted a
lot of time as well though.

I spent a decade doing things in the US and am stuck knowing more about how
the system works in the US than how it does in India. All my twenties have
been wasted a bit because of this. And India is not the greatest of places to
deal with either, though at this point it's up in the air which ones worse!
Perhaps that's the state of the entire world as well.

For what it's worth though, in spite of the inequality, healthcare, partisan
politics and things, I will much rather still work in the US - it's a more
exciting place to be than anywhere else I have ever been

~~~
JackPoach
I do, but I am always careful to distinguish my personal situation with the
bigger picture. And you kind of have to train yourself to do this. Also, I
don't feel that I wasted a single day while living in US. Or, actually wasted
a single day I lived in Turkmenistan (lived there for three years as well).
Those were totally different experiences, but immensely valuable to me. Either
way, I hope your life, personal and professional, turns out to be good
whereever you end up living.

------
matsemann
I thought H-1B was for when one was unable to source enough skilled people
locally? If so, it should kinda be self-adjusting if more high skilled people
are unemployed, right?

~~~
alistairSH
That's its stated purpose, which is why you see it mostly used for software
and science positions.

However, it's been "abused" by large consulting/contracting companies who hire
an army of immigrant labor at the low end of market wages. The H1B recipient
can't do much about it - they're tied to the employer (and their spouse can't
work unless they also get an H1B). Yes, they can move jobs, but it takes legal
resources to get the visa moved/re-issued (not sure about the technical
details).

~~~
koheripbal
Can confirm. Our requirement to fit the "cannot find American" requirement was
to post a tiny ad in a small unknown paper with a ton of requirements that
they H1-B we were about to hire didn't himself even really meet.

It was HIGHLY abused to just get cheap low-level IT staff. ...like the kinds
who confuse Java with Javascript.

~~~
busterarm
I've worked with a ton of H1B talent in my 20 years or so in the industry and
I can count on one hand the number of times that they were an exceptional
talent (compared to the rest of industry) that couldn't otherwise be sourced
locally.

That's true for anybody in any IT position, though, generally. Truly
exceptional people are few and far between. Also in those cases those H1B
folks were highly paid. No, the vast majority of times I've worked with H1B
talent was because they were willing to work hard and for less.

------
square_usual
Is any American firm even hiring internationally at this point? I imagine the
only H1-B processing going on right now is for transfers.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
International transfers don’t need to use H1Bs, there is another visa to use
that doesn’t have a strict quota.

~~~
cwzwarich
If you're talking about an L1 (specifically L-1B), it's the same process for
getting a green card as an H-1B. The downside with the L-1B is that you can't
switch employers.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Edited, thanks! I got confused because there is the @ L1 but then one of my
friends got stuck on a J1 instead when moving for Microsoft China to Redmond.

------
drpgq
What's the status for TN visas right now? The US/Canadian border is semi-
closed now except for things like trucking. If you were just issued one, could
you get across?

------
joelbluminator
While I have sympathy for the foreign workers who are hurt by this, honestly
this is hardly a surprise. When you try to optimise for money over everything
else (quality of government, public healthcare, education for your kids,
safety) weird things happen. Try looking for countries that have a sane
government with a clear immigration policy. These countries are out there.
Yes, you will make less money. But at least this shit isn't likely to happen
to you.

------
eqdw
This doesn't make any sense. What does a "60 day cut" even mean? As I
understand it, H1Bs get processed now and then get issued in like October. It
is more than 60 days from now until October

Wouldn't the only result of this be a backlog of paperwork to process?

------
zzleeper
Most PhDs start with H-1Bs. So with longer freezes (not that anyone is hiring
right now) you risk losing an entire cohort of the best scientists in many
fields.

~~~
rb2k_
Most PhDs I know that are doing research in labs are on a F1 or J-1.

~~~
zzleeper
F1s expire pretty quickly, you should now this.

------
intopieces
Meanwhile, doctors working on the frontlines of the COVID-19 crisis aren't
able to go where they are needed because of the H-1B rules:

[https://www.npr.org/2020/04/18/837855173/immigrant-
doctors-f...](https://www.npr.org/2020/04/18/837855173/immigrant-doctors-face-
barriers-trying-to-volunteer-to-help-fight-covid-19-pande)

------
lgleason
The H1B system along with the L1 and L2 and mostly labor arbitrage. Given the
current employment situation, it should be since there are currently enough
local workers given the state of the economy. The initial draft of the
immigration pause included these, but some of the presidents advisors were
concerned that it would upset Google, Apple etc. so it was removed from the
final one.

------
thedudeabides5
This sucks.

America should be using this crisis to prioritize hiring the world's best
medical, engineering, and technical talent.

It's like our last competitive advantage, a way to capture value from America
being a desireable place, and we're pissing it away.

------
dang
Politicians sending a letter isn't a substantive story for HN. It's even lower
on the totem pole than proposed bills, most of which never go anywhere.

------
BadMrFrosty
Good. Hope it’s permanent. We need a moratorium on immigration for a few
decades at least.

------
nell
There are 85K H1Bs a year of which 20K is for Masters/PHD students.

\- Most foreign student revenue will dry up if you take H1B away.

\- H1B is also used for doctors. Do we not want them?

\- Given the remote transition underway, they will probably transfer over to
Latin America/Canada. This is an issue even for existing tech workers. We are
now competing for jobs with everyone that fall in American time zones.

~~~
user5994461
Don't worry about doctors getting visas. Have a look at the visa delivered by
job:
[https://h1bdata.info/highestpaidjob.php](https://h1bdata.info/highestpaidjob.php)

The top 15 paid job titles are all health related and well above $200k in
average salary. Their organizations will always manage to get visas no matter
what new fancy requirements might come up.

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b1gtuna
This means they want to suspend the processing of current queue of H-1B apps,
right?

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ganstyles
This thread seems very astroturfed.

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frgtpsswrdlame
You'll know they're serious when they do the same for H2A/H2B.

------
hn_1234
How much H1-Bs account for jobs in US ?

~~~
ycombonator
Estimated to be 400,000 mostly in IT.

~~~
user5994461
Should clarify that this is IT as in low level positions in cheap outsourcing
firms. Not to confuse with tech companies.

Edit: You can see visas per company here with average salary
[https://h1bdata.info/topcompanies.php](https://h1bdata.info/topcompanies.php)
You can make an opinion for yourself but suffice to say that the bulk of the
jobs are in cheap outsourcing firms, not in tech companies. (cf. google 15k VS
tata consulting 73k)

~~~
KorematsuFred
Microsoft , google and Facebook are consistently topmost recipient of h1b
visas.

------
elisharobinson
finally no more bonded labour for companies who get away with paying 70%
less(in tech) due to immigrant status than their american counter part.

------
xwdv
Good. H-1B is an exploitative system that forces people into something
resembling modern slavery, at the cost of American jobs and business
opportunities.

People who are against this IMO, are mostly concerned with not appearing
“racist” or xenophobic in any way. Virtue signal.

~~~
koheripbal
My wife started as an H1-B. It's true that she was unpaid and locked into her
company, but ultimately it was her path to US citizenship.

She knew exactly what she was getting into - and now she's making higher six
figures than I do.

The H1-B program is a choice they can walk away from at any time, which makes
it fundamentally different from slavery.

~~~
giobox
This is often a false choice in reality - many H1B recipients have lived here
for decades or more, have kids at school who are American citizens and know
nothing about where their parents even came from.

To go back deports their American children to a country where they may not
even know the language, as one example.

I wouldn’t go as far as to call it slavery either of course, but it
undoubtedly has a servitude element - the outcomes of the policy speak to
that.

------
nine_zeros
My concern is that American selfish politics will just drive a lot of new work
to other countries which are actively courting immigrants/skilled workers.

We are already reeling with concerns about China becoming the largest economy.
Now we throw out some of the more skilled producers who also have the capital
to drive consumption, thus creating jobs. This will only reduce our GDP and
allow other countries to go ahead much faster.

What do we expect will happen here? Bartenders will start being on-call in AWS
immediately? Unemployment systems, public utilities will run automatically?

Are we seriously imagining the best of people will come to the US to work in
medicine or academia with so much vitriol and uncertainty directed towards
them? Does anyone even think twice about how inhuman our laws are to people
and families who are not criminals?

