
Ask HN: Do you have any patents? - eecks
Do you hold any patents?<p>I have a few ideas that I want to find out if they are a) patentable and b) already patented. Is the only way to hire a lawyer?<p>These would be along the lines of Amazon&#x27;s 1 click to purchase patents or that other patent troll&#x27;s shopping basket patent.<p>For clarity, I don&#x27;t want to be a patent troll
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tptacek
Yes, I do.

Yes, in practice, you want a lawyer to arrange one.

Really, though, I don't think you want a patent at all.

It will take many years from the time you arrange to have the patent filed
(and those arrangements will take a long time too) to the point where you get
the patent.

You'll get the patent; to a first approximation, everyone does.

But having the patent --- again, maybe 5-7 years after you file --- all you'll
have gained is the right to one more way to threaten lawsuits.

Those lawsuits will _themselves_ take years and years to resolve, and they'll
be unimaginably expensive, even if you have an _excellent_ case.

Patents and patent licensing businesses are a shitload of boring, depressing
work. There are much better, much easier ways to make money.

~~~
eecks
Thanks for the info. May I ask why/how you have one if it is so much trouble?

~~~
tptacek
First one was live & learn, the second was because employer demanded.

Another thing to bear in mind about patents: they can attach themselves to
contracts in weird ways that can require you to do lots of unpaid work down
the road, at random times, to defend them.

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auxym
As pedalpete mentioned, most of the time you'll want to do the bulk of the
prority research yourself before you start costing lawyer and/or patent agent*
time.

We submitted a few patent applications during my master's research project,
that the university eventually bailed out on due to the industrial partner
pulling out.

The patent agents basically pulled a list of a few hundred (might have been a
few thousand, there were many duplicates though) patents we had to go through
and make sure they weren't prior art. We mainly used google patents. We
reduced that list to less than 10 patents, which we then we through in detail
with the agents, them explaining to us the subtleties of the law and patent
specific language (words on patents don't always mean what you think they
mean) and us explaining the technical aspects of our invention and how it's
different.

Overall though, I came out of the whole process feeling like the utility of
patents for the independent inventor is very limited. Not to mention the
initial time and cost to apply for a patent, think about the eventual cost if
you need to actually defend it in court, ie, make actual use of the patent. Is
protecting your invention worth this?

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pedalpete
I am named as the inventor on a patent which is held by my employer, we have
lawyers to do most of the law stuff, but they make us do a bunch of work first
before we start costing lawyer time.

Searching for patents online is fairly trivial, but time consuming. I'm
assuming you're in the US (I'm not, but the value of most patents is that they
are not yet patented in the US, so we did our patent search there).
[http://patft.uspto.gov/](http://patft.uspto.gov/)

As far as patentable, I can't really comment. I am extremely disappointed that
the Amazon single click purchase was awarded as a patent as I don't believe it
is non-obvious. I'm not too far off the same belief for my own patent, but a
bunch of experts had looked at the problem before and didn't get to my
solution. They thought my solution was elegant and decided to patent it. At
the same time, we mostly patented because that is what the higher-ups like to
measure. I can't imagine my patent every actually being used for monetary
gain.

So, you don't want to be a patent troll, but you have an idea. Do a patent
search, see if it is already patented, but more important, do a search to see
if anybody has come up with a solution that is close to yours. If the concept
is already in the public domain, or something close enough, than you can't
patent it.

The big question is why do you want to patent it. You say you don't want to be
a patent troll. Will you be building a business around this patent? Can it be
used in your existing business? Do you have the ability to make your invention
into a viable product?

What is your definition of a patent troll?

~~~
eecks
My definition of a patent troll would be a patent holder holding a patent
while not using it and stopping others from using it.

The patent would make an idea I have profitable but if every other company
could just implement it then my idea would not able to be profitable.

~~~
pedalpete
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll)

I think what you are describing isn't exactly a patent troll.

If your idea is a software process or program, the likelihood that you would
have the resources to fight off others who want to use your technology is
slim.

There are always so many ways to accomplish the same task in code, that if it
is truly valuable, somebody will find a way to work around it.

So, you have an idea for something that you can get a patent for. Getting the
patent will take you a huge amount of time and a decent chunk of money. Then
you need to build a business out of it.

I'm not saying don't go for the patent, but if your goal is to create a
business, than focus on that. If your goal is to license the IP out to others,
than clearly you need a patent, but if you are trying to protect your idea
from being copied, I wouldn't worry about it.

As everybody says, it's your execution which will define the success or
failure of your business. You need to decide if having a patent is a key part
of your execution or a distraction.

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jantzus
You might want to file a provisional patent as you think about the commercial
viability of the patent.

[http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2013/10/19/good-bad-ugly-truth-
abo...](http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2013/10/19/good-bad-ugly-truth-about-
provisional-patent-applications-2/id=45766/)

"Another thing inventors can do to reduce costs is to first start by filing a
provisional patent application. A provisional patent application needs to
disclose the invention completely as would a nonprovisional patent
application, but the exact formalities are greatly reduced making it easier to
prepare, meaning it costs less. We can attach documents to support the
originally drafted provisional patent application, and we focus on getting as
much as possible into the document. In my experience most inventors who pursue
the provisional do so because they have made an interesting advance and want
to protect what they can now while they continue to refine and work on the
invention. Done in that way a provisional patent application makes all the
sense in the world because it gives you protection with respect to what you
have presently and lets you continue to work to improve the invention over 12
months before you need to file a nonprovisional patent application.

The cost for attorney time alone for a provisional patent application is
typically at least $2,000. The filing fee is $130 for a small entity and
drawings typically cost $100 to $125 per page, so a high quality provisional
patent application for a mechanical or electrical device can typically be
prepared and filed for $2,500 to $3,000. As with nonprovisional patent
applications, the technology involved and the complexity of the invention do
greatly affect the quoted price for a provisional patent application. For
example, for computer related inventions and software the cost to prepare and
file a provisional patent application is typically $6,000 plus the filing fee
and drawing costs. The increased cost for a high quality provisional patent
application that deals with software is due to the reality that so much more
information is required in these applications. You really need to describe the
complete architecture of the system and drill down to the algorithms, routines
and sub-routines. See A Guide to Patenting Software, Building Better Software
Patents and Patenting Business Methods and Software in the U.S. Of course,
these are just ballpark estimates."

[http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2015/04/04/the-cost-of-
obtaining-a...](http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2015/04/04/the-cost-of-obtaining-a-
patent-in-the-us/id=56485/)

Some people just prepare their own provisional patent, without the help of an
attorney, but you might not get the protection you want if you do this.

