
A History of Chop Suey - Thevet
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/historians-cookbook/history-chop-suey
======
matthewfelgate
Disappointed this isn't about the System Of A Down song.

------
dmix
Reminds me of a similar story from HN which I remember doing a rewarding deep
dive into:

[https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/chop-
suey...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/chop-suey-
nation/article30539419/)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13258636](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13258636)

------
codysc
I recommend watching The Search for General Tso. It's a documentary following
the Chinese in America with the lens being on the the General Tso dish, in a
very similar line to the article.

------
starfallg
Chop Suey or 雜菜 has a history way longer than what the article suggests. A
clue to this is the Korean dish of Japchae (잡채) (the stir fried glass noodle
dish in Korean restaurants), which is Sino-Korean for, you guessed it - 雜菜,
when written in Hanja. This is traced back to the early 1600s in written
records, purportedly invented in Korea. Given the circumstances, it was likely
a Korean version of the original disk from China.

Another dish that bears this name has a even more direct connection -
Indonesian Cap Cai. This is clearly a localised version of the original dish
that either slightly precedes or is contemporaneous with the westernised dish.

So maybe this article is a history of Chop Suey in America, but definitely not
Chop Suey as a dish in general.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japchae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japchae)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_cai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_cai)

------
benj111
"More properly written tsa sui (Mandarin) or tsap seui (Cantonese)"

So in UK restaurants, 'Char Sui' is the same thing?

~~~
sdrothrock
I'm curious about whether you're remembering the spelling correctly -- I did a
quick google for "char sui" but couldn't find it, and found the other thing I
do know, which is "char siu," a kind of marinated/roasted pork.

~~~
benj111
At the risk of appearing posher than I am, there's this [1], along with other
links, I'm not sure if they refer to the same thing though.

[1] [https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/waitrose-chinese-
char...](https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/waitrose-chinese-char-sui-
pork/885142-555473-555474)

~~~
sdrothrock
I think they refer to the pork I was thinking about -- the listing has a typo,
but the packaging says "char siu pork." :)

Just to be clear, that's not related to chop suey.

~~~
benj111
Good point, Waitrose have obviously gone downhill, interestingly Tesco seem to
have made the same mistake [1].

As counter examples I've found references the char sui chicken [2] and venison
[3]. But I think you're right that it started off as pork, and not chop suey.

So I could 'legitimately' order char sui tsa sui? How am I pronouncing the
'tsa'?

[1][https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.tesco.com/groceries...](https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-
GB/products/300497160&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwj89tKswqDlAhUBL1AKHSBRCOMQFjAPegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3zSIDNFY-
cwFUpL50hThWM)
[2][https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv...](https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D8VwqY0GTJ2s&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwifq6GGwKDlAhWCEVAKHYfED7I4ChC3AjAFegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw0jDH-j8VUaY2vGX9iERIhX)
[3][https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv...](https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DKExjJj8TLsw&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwifq6GGwKDlAhWCEVAKHYfED7I4ChC3AjAGegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw1WC6xb6yTZa58uW7BHjNYQ)

~~~
sdrothrock
> So I could 'legitimately' order char sui tsa sui?

Not really, for a couple of reasons.

The "r" in "char" is a rising tone, which is distinct and different from the
"tsa" in "tsa sui" (Mandarin) or "tsap" in "tsap seui" (Cantonese).

> How am I pronouncing the 'tsa'?

The "tsa" and "tsap" are (and I can't confirm this 100% since I only speak
rudimentary Mandarin) most likely sharp falling tones, like when you say
"Shit!" If you say "cha" with that tone, odds are that it'll sound like "chop"
with the p not being very strong. The closest approximation is probably saying
something like "it's a" but without the "i" and in the tone/falling pitch of a
curse, like "Fuck!"

They're very distinctly different in most Chinese dialects, and Cantonese and
Mandarin are distinctly different dialects themselves.

The other reason you couldn't say "char sui tsa sui" is that "char sui"
(correctly, "char siu") is from Cantonese, but "tsa sui" is from Mandarin, so
you can't really use them together.

Another issue is that foods don't always work like that -- imagine trying to
go to the pub and ask for "salmon and chips" someone unfamiliar with pub
culture and English might imagine that it's just fish and chips with salmon
being the type of fried fish specified (not knowing that you can't specify the
fish), or someone else might expect grilled salmon with chips on the side, but
odds are you might not get anything at all because it's not something anyone
usually serves. :)

~~~
benj111
"The other reason you couldn't say "char sui tsa sui" is that "char sui"
(correctly, "char siu") is from Cantonese, but "tsa sui" is from Mandarin, so
you can't really use them together"

People do that all the time. My favourite example is Lake Windermere. Where
Windermere is lake in 2 other languages. And half the rivers in the UK seem to
be named river in another language.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_river_name_etymologi...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_river_name_etymologies)

~~~
sdrothrock
I think that's different because it's a name.

Here, you have two different names that you're trying to use to order a food
that doesn't exist, so it's a bit different than something with a shared
etymology and history. It would be like walking into a pub (again) and asking
for "tako and chips," where "tako" is Japanese for "octopus." There's no
guarantee that the dish exists or that the person you're talking to even knows
what "tako" is.

Mandarin and Cantonese are essentially completely different languages, so
you're just mixing phrases that the other person probably doesn't know.

~~~
benj111
I would guess octopus is an imported word, so what you're describing has in a
sense happened. The scenario reminds me of the (probably inaccurate) origin
story for chicken tikka masala, where someone asked for some gravy to go with
their dry chicken tikka.

So maybe I could try ordering a char sui tsa sui, then I can regale my
grandkids with stories about how I invented the world famous dish :)

I suppose food is literally a melting pot, of cuisines and culture.

Ps, I think octopus would go better with French fries.

