
Ask HN: lawyer needed for unpaid invoice (NYC) - hedonist
Currently I&#x27;m looking at an unpaid invoice, for close to $10K, for a successfully completed freelancing gig at a certain very well-known interactive agency in NYC.  By &quot;successfully completed&quot; I mean there&#x27;s no dispute here about the work being unfinished, late or not up to spec -- actually my work was very well received, the vibe with the team was quite good overall.<p>Which is why I&#x27;m quite dumbfounded by what&#x27;s happened since then.  The promised payment date for the first leg of the project came and went two weeks ago, and they simply aren&#x27;t communicating in any helpful way as to when (if ever) they intend to make good on it.  They won&#x27;t even respond to requests for partial payment.  In the first week I got a couple of tepid apologies, and promises to call or write the next day with an update (no one did).  In the second week (last week), dead silence.<p>Compounding all of this is that I suffered a major financial disaster back in March (details won&#x27;t fit in this post), which left me completely bottomed-out, cash-wise.  This April-May gig was supposed to be my &quot;rebound&quot;, but I haven&#x27;t yet received a dime of the promised compensation.
Having gone down this road before, it&#x27;s getting close to the time to hire to a lawyer, preferably a posh and menacing-sounding one, to at least write a Demand of Payment letter.  So what I would like would be a recommendation for someone who might feel inclined to work with me for a promise of future payment.  I can see the first letter costing $200-$250 or so, and hopefully one and only one letter will be required.<p>The lawyer doesn&#x27;t have to be local (to NYC) but that might help of course.<p>Hopefully someone will respond soon -- my situation really is quite dire at the moment.  So I&#x27;d like to get the process moving by the end of the week, if possible.<p>I can be contacted at <i>needthatcheck</i> at <i>yahoo.com</i>.
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tptacek
Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait. Hold up a second. Read 'philiphodgen and
'patio11's comments, but then wait a second.

Two weeks is not a long time to wait for a receivable. I'm sorry to tell you
this, and I may get downvoted for pointing it out because HN doesn't like to
hear it, but companies can be slow to pay invoices.

We've waited months before!

You should be aware that if you escalate your demands, it might take _longer_
to get paid. It's possible that you are at this moment stuck in some kind of
payables limbo, especially if you're dealing with a sizable agency. The
accounts payable people at the agency can get you out of that limbo. But if
you sue, resolution of your dispute will involve legal, and legal is slower
than accounting.

Can you tell us more about the situation you're in? Not why you need the
money, but what kind of firm is it that owes you the money? If it's a
reasonably big company, the odds of them actually intending to screw you are
low; the risk/reward just isn't there. But maybe they're a smaller firm than
you made it sound to me.

~~~
philiphodgen
'hedonist, listen to this advice. It's dead right.

You aren't going to collect this invoice in time to solve your pressing needs.
So play the long game that 'tpacek suggests.

My suggestions were made on the assumption that your client is a smaller
outfit where the nonpayment is due to, well, a desire to not pay you if they
can get away with it.

If you're dealing with BigCo your invoice might be in payables hell. Endless
followup is sometimes required. I get banks as clients. Sometimes they're
fast. Sometimes they're ridiculously slow in paying.

------
patio11
So, for the benefit of everyone reading this: Not urgently needing the money,
and not communicating that one urgently needs the money, is one way to avoid
having this happen to you.

For your benefit:

a) Asking for partial payment sends a bunch of signals regarding your level of
professionalism and need to see this check. Those signals are not helpful in
getting you paid in a timely fashion.

b) Two weeks late is practically on time for a lot of clients. Many are just
structurally incapable of getting checks cut that fast. Yes, insane, but also
true.

c) I'm uncertain of the status of the project and your ongoing relationship
with the client. Please note that escalating to lawyers is not in general
something which improves client relations, if you wish to get more work from
them in the future or if you have an ongoing work relationship for e.g. future
milestones.

d) Prior to escalating to a lawyer, write them a short letter yourself and
FedEx or courier it to their office. Pay the extra for signature confirmation
of receipt. Contents could be similar to:

Dear $DECISIONMAKER:

I invoiced you ($IDENTIFYING_INFORMATION) for $AMOUNT on $PROJECT on $DATE,
but to date have not been paid. Last week I spoke to $NAME and $NAME, who
promised to handle this issue, but it remains unresolved.

The invoice is due immediately. I would prefer that we resolve this amicably
without having to bring lawyers into it. If you have any questions, please
call me at $CONTACT_INFO.

Regards,

$YOU

~~~
edanm
"Asking for partial payment sends a bunch of signals regarding your level of
professionalism and need to see this check. Those signals are not helpful in
getting you paid in a timely fashion."

Out of curiosity, do you think this also applies to asking for a downpayment
for large contracts? Because the same logic seems to apply, but I usually see
asking for downpayments talked about in a very positive light.

~~~
barry-cotter
Asking for a down payment is a test of seriousness and someone's ability to
pay the actual, real, full price. It is also an utterly normal business
practice. Asking for partial payment because you are broke tells people you
are broke. This gives people information about both your business acumen and
negotiating position, not information that will redound to your advantage.

------
relaunched
I seem to be posting this link about once a month on HN, but here goes.

[http://vimeo.com/22053820](http://vimeo.com/22053820) \- Mike Monteiro - F*ck
You, Pay Me

It's truly worth the listen. But, since there is already spilt milk, I'd
advise your letter to include notification of the date by which you will be
reporting them to Compunet, dunn and bradstreet, the BBB and whatever trade
organizations that they belong to, including their bonding agency (which they
might have).

------
philiphodgen
I'm a lawyer. I've written those letters. They're useless. Don't waste your
time.

1\. If deadbeats have the money and won't pay, the only thing that will move
them forward is a lawsuit. Yelling "Scary Monsters!" will not budge a normal
business executive. They are acting in bad faith. A letter won't change that.
You can't bullshit a bullshitter, etc.

2\. If they don't have the money, they are either good people or they are bad
people.

(a) If they are good people they would have said "We don't have the money and
here's a payment plan." You personally should make the payment demand and see
if they offer monthly payments to pay you off. A lawyer's snarling letter is
going to hamper this effort, not help.

(b) If they are bad people, the only thing that is going to do you any good is
a lawsuit.

Your action plan is simple. You either decide to make one last collection
effort or you don't. I recommend that you do so. I recommend that you do so on
paper. Send a letter with the unpaid invoice. You want this proof so you look
good in the litigation, not because they are suddenly going to wake up and pay
you.

Then you sue. I don't know what the NYC rules are for small claims court, but
that's where you go. You don't need a lawyer there.

For instance, if they owe you $10,000 but the maximum you can sue for in small
claims court is $7,500, sue for $7,500 and take the haircut. You don't have to
be afraid of the process. It's simple. "Hey Judge, here's my contract where
they promised to pay me. Here's the work I did. Here's where they said they
were happy with the work I did. Here are the things I tried to do so they
would pay me. I ain't got nuttin' yet. Your Honor, I rest my case." Then the
Judge will look at them with a Judge Judy-style look and say, in legalese,
"WTF?" And they'll have a chance to explain themselves.

No decent lawyer will take on a tiny case like this. No decent lawyer will
take on a tiny case like this for the promise of future payment. You're on
your own.

Here's the blunt truth. Invoices like yours are worth the face value
multiplied by the probability of payment. At the moment your probability
approaches zero. You don't have something worth $10,000 to you. You, in fact,
have a claim for money that is probably worth zero or close to it, by the time
you put all of the time and effort into collection.

Mentally kiss this money goodbye. Put the minimum amount of effort into
collection that you can -- use the model I have described above. Put your
effort into doing things better next time.

Never put yourself in this position again. There have been endless threads on
HN about this. Look for comments by tptacek and patio11, among others.

My personal feeling is that as soon as someone owes you about $1,500 or so (or
pick your number), the balance of power shifts from the service provider to
the customer. Pick a number where you can look at the customer, swear with all
the potty-mouth words you know, and walk away. Then never let your accounts
receivable get above that number. It's better to not work and not get paid
than it is to work and not get paid.

~~~
wikwocket
I agree with many of these points, especially about not letting accounts
receivable get more than $1-2k, and about having to settle for a fraction of
the outstanding $10k in this case, but I do not agree about a lawyer not being
willing to take this case or it not being worth it.

Many lawyers will take a small claims case, and at the very least will consult
with you (probably 30-60 minutes for free) about it. And while state law will
vary, around here most will work for a percentage of the awarded payment.

I knew someone that had a $12k invoice due, went to small claims court ($10k
limit), had a lawyer write letters and represent them, and walk away with
$8000+. Bear in mind it took 2 years to resolve, though.

------
viggity
Send them a cake invoice. Go to a bakery, have them decorate a cake just like
your invoice, in red icing at the bottom "your invoice is past due, $10K due
immediately". Have it sent to their receptionist. Everyone loves cake. The
owner will be embarrassed as hell and pay up immediately if they can. The last
thing they need is their employees wondering if they're solvent.

If they still don't pay, send another cake invoice, but instead of putting
frosting on a cake, put frosting on a cardboard box.

I've had a friend use this three times. Two paid immediately. The third got
the cardboard box invoice. All cheaper than an attorney.

If that doesn't work, perhaps a singing telegram?

Hope they pay you soon.

------
gesman
In my industry I would deliver stuff, holding last bit in evaluation mode or
in watermark mode due upon full payment.

That's of course prevention measure. If you already gave up whole piece of
work for them to ran away with - then you're in chasing mode.

Forgetful clients next time will get preferential treatment - 100% advance
payment requirement.

------
mknappen
You may want to send another invoice, followed by a "demand for payment"
letter a couple of weeks later, prior to hiring a lawyer, especially since
they aren't yet 30 days out.

~~~
hedonist
Actually they are 30+ out, already.

