

Microsoft's chief research officer wants web licenses to end bloggers' anonymity - miked
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/100025849/control-freaks-want-web-licences-to-end-bloggers-anonymity-be-very-afraid/

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CodeMage
I'm just curious: was I the only one annoyed by the author's tone and style? I
agree with the sentiment behind the article, but the tone makes it come across
as extremely partisan. I like reading news without someone shoving their
opinion down my throat, even if I agree with said opinion.

~~~
rbanffy
The ability to filter out bias in an opinionated piece is very valuable. With
practice your brain does it by itself and you hardly notice.

~~~
CodeMage
Which, apparently, cannot be said for the ability to refrain from lashing out
with a snarky comment. I specifically said that I agree with the author's
opinion and that I was asking out of curiosity whether there were other people
who shared my dislike of his tone. Just because you're _capable_ of reaching
your destination through a traffic jam, doesn't mean you have to _like_ it.

~~~
rbanffy
Partly answering your question, I neither like nor dislike the style. I have
learned to ignore it. I perceive no slowdown in parsing an opinionated piece
when compared to purely factual reporting. I notice a lower interesting
information density, as part of the content is being used by the opinions of
the author and are thus discarded and I would prefer a more concise report.

And I never intended to be snarky.

------
lmkg
Is anonymity required for free speech?

I ask this in order to start an honest discussion. Reading the comments, there
seems to be an immediate, and in my opinion unwarranted, jump from
authentication of identity directly to censorship. Cutting through the
article's FUD bullshit, censorship is not what Mundie is proposing. He's
proposing a connection between internet presence and identity, as a means of
combating cybercrime.

While his proposal conceivably enables censorship activities, I am wary of
slippery-slope arguments in general, and in this case the proposal has nothing
to do with the legality of censorship in whatever jurisdiction it's present
it. In areas where censorship is more common than the US it might make it
easier. But, in the US at least, I personally don't see lack of anonymity as
necessarily being the first step on an irresistible march towards a soviet
dictatorship.

I'm rather on the fence about the specific issue of anonymity being a
principle aspect of freedom of speech.

~~~
ezy
No, but you're asking the wrong question. The right question WRT to free
speech is whether there is _any_ free speech which requires anonymity -- and
the answer to that is obviously yes. Martyrdom should not be required to speak
against those in power.

But, even that is beside the point. An internet id implies authentication to
use the internet. Identification is a _secondary_ purpose of a driver's
license -- the primary purpose is to control who can and cannot operate a
motor vehicle. _That's_ the problem. Not anonymity,

If you can't be authenticated, you can't speak on the internet -- that is
precisely what he's proposing (you can consume but not contribute). It's very
small step from that to controlling speech. And it's not even about anonymity
-- If you can't get on, no one is going to hear you complain. And guess who
holds the keys?

And furthermore, cert authorities for the things that need them already exist.
So, he is obviously pushing censorship, whether he's too stupid to realize it
(it's a microsoft talking head, after all) or not.

~~~
lmkg
You have a valid point that there are instances of free speech that do
effectively require anonymity.

The point of an actual driver's license is first to certify, and second to
identify. However, if you give Mundie the benefit of the doubt, he was just
using the wrong metaphor and didn't mean that some people wouldn't get the
keys to the castle. Would an "internet license" that demonstrates your
identity but has no entrance requirements and no way of being denied or
revoked be as directly correlated with censorship?

~~~
ezy
The conditions you laid out are hypothetical. Yes, if we ignore the anonymity
requirement for _all_ free speech, and it was strictly identity only with no
other requirements, it would less directly associated with censorship. But
this hypothetical is begging the question... If everything were sweetness and
light, we wouldn't have problems with a stricter license for access proposal
either because there would be no fear of retribution, and no one would have a
reason to speak out. But there is, and they do...

So practically, even your proposal is broken. There is a requirement. You must
identify yourself. So how do you do that? Well, you have to supply the proper
"papers" -- and what authority will guarantee those? Oops, you've just handed
the keys over again...

And the best part? It does _nothing_ to stop criminals, who would have no
problem breaking the law again, to just fake the papers and get an id to use a
conduit for... whatever. It just institutes another level of control, another
mental and practical barrier, to cross for normal people who wish to speak
their mind.

------
RyanMcGreal
Here's an interesting case of an HN headline being _less_ editorial and
linkbaity than the original. Well done, sir!

------
pmccool
The analogy with a driver's license is completely inane. What's the worst that
can happen if you go about blogging the wrong way? Some people get upset,
maybe sue for defamation or something? Big deal!

Go about driving the wrong way and people can get hurt or killed; that's the
motivation behind requiring a driving license. There is no comparable public-
safety issue behind requiring a license for operating a computer, nor is there
any need to regulate access to a scare shared resource (e.g. radio
frequencies). There is just no compelling reason to bother, apart from the
creepy, coercive ones.

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michael_nielsen
Good luck with the first amendment in the US. Not to mention getting 200 or so
other countries to enforce it. The WTO or WIPO might like to help out, but
it's not going to happen with the US a non-starter.

~~~
rbanffy
A piece of advice: never take your freedoms for granted.

I have lived most of my childhood under a right-wing military dictatorship.
The "it will never happen here" concept is a very dangerous one.

~~~
jonallanharper
Where did you spend your childhood? (just curious)

~~~
rbanffy
Brazil.

------
tbrownaw
It feels like I'm seeing more calls for this crap lately, from in power / high
status type people. That worries me somewhat. What's driving this? Are they
afraid of loss of control, or does it just seem like an "easier" fix than
things that might actually work (like user education and proper type safety)?

------
jonallanharper
Cold chance in hell this will pass in the U.S.

I'd actually like to see it formally proposed in some fashion, just to see
which congressmen would advocate it... and then observe them promptly voted
home the following election season.

~~~
rbanffy
Please read the comment above <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1121024>

edit: or somewhere else on this page.

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mbreese
And who says Microsoft doesn't innovate anymore?

~~~
rbanffy
Since when being on the wrong side is something new for them?

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holdenc
Ahh, yes. A case of Microsoft misunderstanding human behavior and technical
possibility. There will be no drivers licenses, as there will be no web
police, as there will be no hegemonic Microsoft. It's a good day when you can
file an article like this under comedy.

------
patrickgzill
This deserves an Internet Death Penalty I think.

~~~
epochwolf
What is the internet death penalty?

Hacking by anonymous? Heckling on 4chan?

~~~
Zak
Dropping of all packets by major routers.

[http://catb.org/esr/jargon/html/I/Internet-Death-
Penalty.htm...](http://catb.org/esr/jargon/html/I/Internet-Death-Penalty.html)

------
bediger
I think that Mundie's trial balloon has more to do with this part of his
statement: _the car has to pass a test to say it is fit to drive and you have
to have insurance_.

I will go out on a limb here and propose that the "Internet Driver's License"
has more to do with _gently guiding_ governments into requiring Windows, or at
least non-free-software operating systems than it has to do with establishing
identity, abolishing anonymity or any of the "Four Horsement of the Internet
Apocalypse".

~~~
rbanffy
I will go further down the limb by saying that the minimum safety requirement
would be not to run Windows, but then I would be voted down into non-
existence...

Oops... I just said it. Burn, karma, burn!

------
jrockway
OK, that's great. I want a pony. I'm not going to get it, though, so it's not
really even worth talking about.

You can't censor the Internet. You can make posting to the Internet
anonymously illegal, but you can't enforce that. You could make crypto
illegal, but you can't enforce that either (steganography). Saying that you
want to end blog anonymity is like saying you want to end water flowing
downhill. You can say it all you want, but it ain't gonna happen.

------
socratees
Why do they even propose this? Do they have any arguments in their favor? We
should never let this kind of thing happen to the internet.

~~~
jamesbritt
"Why do they even propose this? "

Propose _what_ , exactly? The article does not give any direct quotes, so all
we have is the paraphrasing of a writer with an agenda.

------
sriramk
A better report of what Craig Mundie proposed is at
[http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2010/01/30/drivers-l...](http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2010/01/30/drivers-
licenses-for-the-internet/) .

Disclaimer- I work for MSFT but I really no nothing more than what is in these
articles

~~~
tbrownaw
"That's what enables a massive amount of cyber crime: if you're attacked from
a computer, you might be able to figure out where that particular machine is
located, but there's really no way to go back one step further and track the
identity of the computer that hacked into the one that hacked into you."

"What Mundie is proposing is to impose authentication."

Who is authenticating to whom, and how long is this recorded for (and by who)?
If someone posts a virus on a random discussion forum somewhere, and I
download it a month later and start sending spam and posting new copies after
another week, will this be sufficient to track whoever posted the very first
copy? If it is, what will prevent it from having an incredible chilling effect
on free speech?

------
motters
Well, all this really shows is just how out of touch Microsoft is. They never
really grokked the web anyway.

------
DannoHung
On the one hand, that's bullshit... then on the other hand, I'm thinking of
all of the YouTube commenters that I'd like to see disappear, even in the
repressive Soviet usage of the word. I don't suppose it would be used to weed
out simpering idiots though...

~~~
rbanffy
Why the anger? Are they making you watch their videos?

~~~
DannoHung
Their existence abrades me.

~~~
fexl
I know the feeling but I recommend letting it go. I've seen some vile comments
there, but most get down-voted into oblivion.

------
robinwarren
pretty standard telegraph fare, the only reason to read this is to find out
how they manage to link the story to paedophiles

------
Gormo
The "internet license" proposal is likely hyperbolic rhetoric being used to
underscore a more moderate point that MS wants to make.

Still, it's becoming commonplace to hear these kind of draconian, totalitarian
proposals, from all ends of the political spectrum, and it's not inconceivable
that at some point, one of these proposals will end up enacted in law.

Perhaps we will eventually need to construe this kind of rhetoric as an overt
statement of intent to undermine the constitution, and reinstate prosecutions
for seditious libel.

~~~
JohnnyBrown
> " . . .reinstate prosecutions for seditious libel."

A censor's wet dream, that.

------
dan_the_welder
Yet another point in support of my new adage, " Live in the Cloud, die by the
cloud."

Got Buzzed? Got Blogger DMCA'd? Tired of having targeted ads in your email,
tired of worrying about data retention policies?

Then I encourage you to spend a low, low 100 bucks a year on your own hosting
and domain, with email and all the website a humble blogger can eat.

------
fh
The conspiracy theorist part of me suggests that the reason for this proposal
has something to do with the MiniMSFT blog.

------
nfnaaron
Microsoft will make a fine DMV.

~~~
epochwolf
They certainly have the software and bureaucracy for it.

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rbanffy
It's so Microsoft to be always on the wrong side...

