
Ask HN: How do you apply Boyd's OODA Loop in your life? - aalhour
How do you apply Boyd&#x27;s decision making strategy in your life? Do you apply it to one, or more, dimension(s) of your life? How do you make day-to-day decisions? How does your personal security look like?
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bkohlmann
I first heard of Boyd my senior year of college. We got a new NROTC commanding
officer who was one of Boyd's acolytes in the 1980s. It changed my life.

I discovered that being a good military officer wasnt about following orders.
It was about doing what was best for your country. Sometimes the two
coincided. Sometimes they didnt.

While the OODA loop is usually applied to outpacing an adversary, I applied it
in a macro sense to my entire career.

I spend the first 8 years of my fighter pilot experience "observing and
orienting" myself to the culture I found myself in. I saw good and bad
leadership, useful and wasteful strategies.

Then, in year 9, I "decided and acted." Within two years, I had built three
organizations that infused DoD with a mindset of innovation.

Then I left the military and started over. I went to graduate school and now
find myself in consulting. In many ways, I'm Observing and re-orienting
myself. I'm waiting for the right moment to "decide and act."

I find this mindset infuses nearly every problem I attempt to tackle. And as
my pattern recognition increases from frequent observations and orientations,
I can decide and act effectively ever more quickly.

~~~
aalhour
This is the first time I read a macro application of the OODA loop, I somehow
only saw it on the micro level. How do you observe and orient on a macro level
with respect to culture? Or to be precise, how would you observe and orient in
a new country that you moved into on a cultural level? Also, what other ideas
from Boyd did you find useful in your everyday life?

~~~
bkohlmann
For me, to Observe, you have to be willing to be a blank slate. You have to
suspend all "knowledge" and absorb as much as you can. You need to reserve
passing judgment.

When you have an inkling of understanding, you begin probing to validate your
understanding. This is the start of the Orient phase. You may be wrong or
right in your assessments - but you iterate from the small experiments. You
hone in on what is actually true, which takes some iteration.

As for other Boydian ideas...here are a few:

Broadly applied synthesis: What made Boyd powerful was his deep intellectual
curiosity. His broad understanding of history and thermodynamics made for a
unique and insightful combination. He frequently quoted and made use of
Heisenberg, Godel and other philosophers in his engineering work.

E-M diagrams: As a fighter pilot, I used his "Energy-Maneuverability" diagram
literally every day. It's the foundation of all dogfighting across the world.
And it was created from the computer time he stole from Wright Patterson
AFB...and was then courtmarshaled because of it. E-M is closely tied to the
OODA Loop, although the latter is far more broadly applicable.

Dont Forget Your Family: This was "anti-lesson" from Boyd. He immersed himself
in his work. But it absolutely destroyed his family. He left them penniless
because he refused to take any meaningful money from the government as a
contractor in his post-military career. He was a Lion - but all men have their
flaws.

------
brd
My degree is in Information Systems with a concentration in Emergency
Management. OODA is one of the concepts I took away from school and
internalized. I don't even think about things in terms of OODA anymore, I
automatically assess and dissect the situation at hand or the information
presented. Essentially, OODA is a clean framework for critical thinking. It's
a gut check to ensure you take into account all known factors.

Taking OODA literally in your day to day would likely be burdensome but
learning to build mental models that allow you to quickly connect dots is a
huge asset. I oftentimes opt to not worry about things but I do it
consciously, I have a mental model for cost (i.e. risk) and often I put things
into the rounding error bucket.

A more concrete example is when I'm networking: Once I hear what a person does
I quickly assess what I know about their industry, what I consider to be most
niche or cutting edge about that knowledge, and then riff on it to establish
that I am a person worth talking to. From there it's a constant loop of "what
can I do to help this person?", "how can I leverage this connection to help my
business?", with the occasional "who could I introduce this person to for some
sort of mutually beneficial win?"

This mental framework for networking allows me to quickly get to meaningful
dialogue, get to a point of action, and part ways. At events my contacts tends
to be high quality as a result and I can work a room faster which allows me to
make more connections.

Having a similar frameworks for business decisions, meeting management, sales,
etc allows me to manage a lot of areas of my life relatively effortlessly.

edit: By effortlessly I mean stress free. I essentially go on auto-pilot.

~~~
aalhour
Interesting. I am curious how were you taught the OODA Loop in your
Information Systems studies? Can you point me to materials I can look up?

------
agitator
I had to look up OODA, because I had never heard of it. But I have to say that
this has been a personal strategy of mine as long as I can remember. And I
think it has been mostly fueled by a constant desire to learn. Just sheer
curiosity.

I think building up a massive collection of mental models and consciously
linking new concepts to previous knowledge where it might be valuable has
allowed me to quickly grab ideas from varying sources to solve problems in
novel ways. In my opinion, the enabling factor to this strategy is to
continually amass a wide range of theories, ideas, strategies, etc and imagine
how they might help each other. Like building up a great lego collection. You
have all these parts from various sets, so when you want to make something
new, you have all these pieces that didn't come together originally, but you
can create novel solutions with.

Having all of these strategies in your arsenal, allows you to more quickly
iterate on actions, while continuously learning more about your problem,
allowing you to zero in on a best strategy.

------
Jtsummers
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop)

For others: Observe, Orient, Decide, Act

It's a feedback loop, and everyone uses feedback loops. What most people don't
do is analyze their feedback loops and work to improve them.

To take advantage of the concept of OODA you need to shorten the loop. That
doesn't, strictly, mean acting faster (though it can). What you really want is
to make smaller decisions, but make them more frequently. This is the same
principle as Lean production and software development.

When you decide on an action it should be something that can be immediately
carried out. You don't decide on an action like: I'll take the ball down the
field, pass the 2 defenders, and kick it into the top left corner of the goal.

You decide to take the ball down the field. As you approach the defenders, you
decide how you will pass them or who you will pass the ball to. If you pass
them you decide how you will get past the goalkeeper, will you feint and
misdirect? Will you use your strong and precise kick to get it in the corner
he's not? You can't know that until you get there so the decision isn't made
until you arrive there.

==============================

A distinction has to be made, and many do not, between the goal and the
action. You can decide on a goal, but it is not an action itself. Instead you
have to start making a series of decisions that lead to that goal. As you make
each of those decisions you'll have more information, you'll see shortcuts or
delays that have to be worked around. You decide on a next action, and you
execute. And you repeat. This is the OODA loop.

==============================

I do use this, in sports (soccer and BJJ for me), in driving (particularly the
aspect of deliberate action, once I've decided I do not slowly drift into a
new lane, I make the action deliberate and clear so no one else is confused).
I try to use it at work but I'm surrounded by Waterfall Worshippers so that's
a frustration. I do use it with my own work assignments and projects, but I
cannot get my organization to make use of it themselves.

==============================

Edit: To add, like _brd_ , I don't actually think in terms of OODA, but it is
something I learned a long time ago. My dad was a pilot, and he drilled the
concepts (though not the term) into my sister and I just in daily life. I use
the concepts of it, but actively only think of it when trying to convey it to
others or to integrate it into something beyond my own efforts.

~~~
aalhour
Cool. How do you apply the OODA loop in a BJJ fight or sparring session? Would
you be aware of all the loops you'd be going through? If you were to transfer
your knowledge of the OODA to a colleague or a friend, how would you do it?

~~~
Jtsummers
> How do you apply the OODA loop in a BJJ fight or sparring session?

By drilling until the target action is nearly automatic and fluid. Start with
the opponent in my guard, practice getting their arm over and over. Then
practice moving from that to having a leg over their upper back. Then from
that to the arm bar. Repeat all steps until I can start with them in my guard
and end with them in an arm bar as one fluid (or more fluid) motion rather
than 3 or 4 stilted motions. In the drill they're passive or semi-cooperative.
Step it up with them resisting more. In rolling they're deliberately
countering so learn how to adjust mid-motion.

> Would you be aware of all the loops you'd be going through?

As a novice, I'm very much aware of what I'm doing at each step. I still have
to think about things too much. But after practice, something like changing my
hip position, getting a grip on their collar or sleeve, and changing how my
legs are gripping them, all becomes one action instead of three or four. My
decision then is to do one thing (that is three concurrent actions) rather
than three decisions. I can't go all the way from guard to arm bar with one
decision, but I can get parts of it done more easily.

===================

To qualify this. I do not think strictly in terms of OODA loops. But I do
think in terms of internalizing the decisions I need to make, which is an
aspect of improving your feedback loops. By gaining muscle memory and learning
to recognize my opponent's advantages and disadvantages in any moment more
quickly I can improve my overall response time.

===================

> If you were to transfer your knowledge of the OODA to a colleague or a
> friend, how would you do it?

I don't speak in terms of the OODA loop, but I'm doing this with my
girlfriend. She doesn't know how to drive and will be learning soon. I focus
on situational awareness. When she's in the car with me I ask her where things
are around us. I ask her if there will be a vehicle two lanes over once we
pass a semi truck that's in the center lane. These are things a driver has to
be aware of, and is something like what my dad did with me as a kid. Just
asking what I noticed and what I remembered. This wasn't a constant routine,
but it was moderately frequent and helped me internalize the idea of
maintaining situational awareness. I do it now without thinking that I'm
maintaining SA.

I'm also telling her, and demonstrating, that when she commits to an action
like changing lanes she needs to do it deliberately. And that she should make
smaller (at first) individual choices. You don't decide a mile out that you're
turning left at the next light. You decide that you need to be in the left
lane and get there. Then you decide that you need to be in the turn lane, or
to slow down, or whatever is appropriate along the way, then you decide to
make your turn. The turn was always the goal, but it was not the action you
were committing until the end.

And the other reason to avoid hesitation is to avoid conflict with other
drivers. When I signal a lane change and see a gap, I take it. I don't hem and
haw over it because then the other driver doubts my intent and may close the
gap. When I then change lanes I create the potential for an accident.

After a period of time, once she has a license and can start practicing, then
I will have her making compound decisions. Instead of deciding to check the
mirrors and blind spots. Turn on the blinker. Check the mirrors and blind
spots. Change lane. She will learn to do those things simultaneously or as a
smooth fluid action from one decision, rather than as a sequence of decisions.
This will, by its nature, free up her mind to be more attentive to the other
elements of the road and start being a better and more fluid driver, and
become more proactive rather than reactive to the other vehicles on the road.
An experienced driver can plan miles ahead. An inexperienced driver can plan
for the next three seconds.

But in all things, it requires practice to improve. Either real world,
practice courses, or mental simulation.

------
hx2a
My understanding of the importance of OODA Loops influenced my approach to
data analysis and the tools I build to analyze data. My goal is always to
build fast and flexible tools. This allows me to explore the data quickly from
many different angles.

Boyd's key insight isn't that we should use OODA loops to make decisions. His
genius is that OODA loops should exist, and you should set yourself up to go
through the loop as quickly as possible and as many times as possible. This
means designing tools or systems that can quickly go through that process. The
end result is a more agile and adaptable person or organization.

I read this book years ago and it changed my life. Great understanding of the
man and his life.

The Mind of War: John Boyd and American Security [https://www.amazon.com/Mind-
War-John-American-Security/dp/15...](https://www.amazon.com/Mind-War-John-
American-Security/dp/158834178X/)

