
Korg and Noritake Introduce Futuristic Nutube Vacuum Tubes - SwellJoe
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2015/01/29/korg-noritake-introduce-futuristic-nutube-vacuum-tubes/
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hamiltonkibbe
Cool concept, but I doubt the operating range of these tubes is large enough
to get any sort of usable gain out. Unless there's a datasheet that says
otherwise I'd imagine these are going to end up early in the gain chain as a
"coloring" component.

With the low operating range and low bias point you don't get the same effect
as you do with a tube biased to it's sweet spot. It seems like a marketing
gimmick like the starved-plate 12ax7 stage they put in everything nowadays
(with ~12V B+ as opposed to the 250-400V B+ you find in nearly all classic amp
designs), along with a few LEDs and a window in front so you can see where
your extra $100 is going.

If you plot (really any) load line on the plate curves for a 12AX7 with a <
50V B+ you're in a really poor, highly non-linear region. Looking at plate
curves for some old VFD tubes the operating range for those is way down in the
same region in the lower left corner if you plot them over the 12AX7 plate
curves.

Given the size and the fact that it uses 2% of the power of conventional
tubes, I doubt that these tubes could be used as an output stage. I would have
to guess that they're running them cold as well. Preamp tube power draw is
often dominated by the heaters

Of course this is all speculation until they publish a datasheet...

~~~
SwellJoe
I find most cheap tube gear uninteresting, musically speaking. It's generally,
as you note, a tiny low voltage 12AX7 preamp stage feeding a regular old
transistor gain stage. There's a reason the old master volume Marshall amps
are sought after, and why so many manufacturers have returned to all-tube
designs.

Some of what goes on in audio is snake oil. In fact, a lot of it is. But,
modeling amps and tube preamp stage gear still doesn't hold up well against a
good tube amp. I bought a new amp a couple years ago, after having used the
same amp for ~20 years (a 1984 JCM 800). I tried every amp in the small size
range at two guitar stores. The clear winner was an all-tube Vox model. The
modeling amps were way down the list, which was disappointing. I really
believed we had the technology to replicate good amp tone (and some guitar amp
sims on computer are reasonably good)...but we still aren't there.

And, the preamp tube with transistor volume stage amps were also clearly
inferior to the master volume style all-tube amp I ended up buying.

~~~
6stringmerc
Very nice write up and I'm in agreement. I've heard good things about Vox and
their move back toward being the best consumer tube amp. I grew up with a 64
Fender Twin Silverface (Dad's gig amp) and it was a monster, just too much,
but I'm glad we sold it to somebody who still has it. I became a solid-state
guy but always lusted after the 5150 2x12" combo, and they're holding steady
at about $500 used, so one of those is in my future.

I've used quite a few Line6 computer products and I like the bang-for-the-buck
but would never, ever put them in the pro sound field. Fun to play with,
cheaper than pedals, but takes me quite a bit in fiddling with settings + post
production to make them worthwhile (same goes for my little MicroSpider amp,
which is mostly for busking).

One thing that came across my radar was the Kemper, which seems to be that
technological achievement you might have in mind. I've never played/heard one
(that I know of), but I think it has a pretty good reputation thus far. Link:
[http://www.kemper-amps.com/profiling](http://www.kemper-amps.com/profiling)

~~~
SwellJoe
I had a first generation 5150, as well, and loved it. Though when I down-sized
it was the 5150 that got sold (while I kept the JCM 800). But, that was
primarily a function of the size of the 5150 + 4x12" cabinet, while the JCM
800 was a 2x12" combo (which is clearly the ideal amp size for performance,
though too big for recording); both amps were excellent. I consider it one of
Peavey's crowning achievements, maybe the best thing they ever made. I haven't
heard any of the new generation of them, once they stopped calling them 5150.
They also moved most of their manufacturing out of the United States a few
years back, which reportedly impacted quality...I don't know if the tube amps
are still made in the US, or not.

Since I moved out of the motorhome (the reason I sold my JCM 800 and downsized
to a tiny Vox was because I was living in ~200 square feet for four years,
while traveling full-time), I've since bought another Marshall. It's a 50W JCM
2000 (I think...maybe 900) that I picked up for $600 (and a 4x12 cab that was
a few hundred more), but it rarely gets used. The Vox sounds great and is
right-sized for indoor use.

I'm really happy with my Vox, honestly; for most things it sounds as good as
any amp I've ever owned, and I've owned some good as hell amps (I've also had
some old Fenders). I wish it had a bigger speaker; a 10" would make it the
perfect amp. It's got an 8", and sometimes low end stuff sounds pinched.

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pjc50
That's a two-segment vacuum fluorescent display! If you want to do your own
"tube" experiments, you can find these in salvaged electrical gear, especially
VCRs.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
Yeah! I am pleased that Noritake may have found a way to keep their
company/plants going. I hope it works out for them.

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sbierwagen
You can use regular unmodified VFDs as tube amps, though the gain isn't great:
[http://hpfriedrichs.com/radioroom/vfd/rr-
vfd.htm](http://hpfriedrichs.com/radioroom/vfd/rr-vfd.htm)

~~~
kazinator
Based on that article, I'm not convinced that it's the best that the part
could do, based on the circuit schematic. We would not be using the windings
of a transformer as a load in a typical gain stage in a musical instrument
preamp. A typical inverting stage would have a large-ish resistor as its load,
in parallel with the fairly high impedance of the next stage (another tube
circuit that is similar).

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nharada
Generally with tube amps there are two places the tubes can go, either the
preamp stage or the output stage. Most tube amp enthusiasts will scoff at the
idea of having only a preamp tube stage and not power tube stage. These things
look tiny, I'd be impressed if these can deliver the wattage required by
output tubes.

Also interesting will be to hear how they actually sound. All tubes aren't
built equal, and even with traditional tubes you can find people arguing about
the merits of the 6L6 or EL-34.

Of course, if this thing delivers on both fronts that would be incredible.
Tubes are in short supply, and my friends who play on tube amps are always
complaining out how expensive it is to replace the damn things.

~~~
kubiiii
Maintenance is expensive for sure and new old stock is scarce. But there it's
not only tube amps vs solid state amps, there are also modeling amps. They've
been around for more than a decade and they are able to simulate the effect of
tube amplification and even model each electronic component individually. Well
at least they pretend they do. And anyway even if they did guitarist would not
buy them because they are a little conservative.

~~~
Demiurge
I have Axe-Fx II, it is amazing, and from my understanding no one can tell the
difference anymore, which is why so many big and small names have switched
over, like Steve Vai and Metallica:
[http://www.fractalaudio.com/artists.php](http://www.fractalaudio.com/artists.php)

~~~
72deluxe
Do they use it live though? I thought Vai was entirely Carvin? His sound has
more sheen on it recently compared to his earlier stuff.

Also, I notice they list Petrucci as an artist. I had a look on stage at his
rig last tour (fortunate to do so, was I) and I am sure it was entirely Mesa
Rectifier MIDI enabled preamps and Mesa Simul-Class2:Ninety rigs for the
amplification, ran to two small 12" (or 10") cabs miked up offstage (so less
bleed from live drums, more control over the sound) so I am curious where he
actually uses this in his signal chain? I doubt he actually uses it for
anything other than effects??? Same for Myung - he was using a DI box and a
Demeter power amp ran on a dummy load for overdrive. (I chatted with the bass
tech, friendly guy! The entire crew were friendly!)

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thraxil
At least as of 2012, Vai used Carvin amps live and Axe-Fx just for effects.
See:
[http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Rig_Rundown_Steve_Vai](http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Rig_Rundown_Steve_Vai)

Can't find any more recent info. Pretty sure Petrucci does the same thing,
with Axe-Fx as effects processor rather than amp modeler. Don't know about
Metallica.

There are quite a few artists who do use the Axe-Fx or Kemper live in lieu of
amps though: Animals as Leaders, Periphery, Paul Masvidal from Cynic, Devin
Townsend (sometimes, he seems to switch back and forth a lot), Jeff Loomis in
Arch Enemy uses a Kemper live ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J92RP-
fFO_g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J92RP-fFO_g)). Plus quite a few lesser
known musicians. If you have an Axe-Fx, you can do a fly-in gig with it and
have a consistent sound without being at the mercy of whatever crappy backline
the venue has. Handy tool for a guitarist for hire.

Especially in metal though, there's a certain showmanship aspect to having a
bunch of big loud amps on stage. A lot of the bigger bands for years have even
lined stages with dummy stacks of 4x12 cabinets just for show. So even if they
start using a modeler, they probably won't make a big deal of it. Smaller
bands, playing in smaller venues run into the problem of stage monitoring. You
can run your Axe-Fx into front-of-house and probably get a good sound to the
crowd, but a lot of the smaller venues have lousy monitoring setups on stage
and guitarists are used to essentially using their amp to compensate for that.
So you might still want a power amp and cabinet on stage in that case.

Anyway, I have an Axe-Fx II and it's replaced all my tube gear. I wouldn't say
it sounds 100% the same, but it's _really_ close. Beyond the sound, what it
does that other modelers have not done so well is get the "feel" of playing
through a tube amp. The really subtle dynamics and compression that you don't
necessarily hear but that affect how you play when your ears and hands are
reacting to what the amp does. Leaps and bounds better than Line6 or Podfarm.
And at apartment-safe volume levels, I'd even argue that it sounds better than
most tube amps, so that's a huge plus for me.

~~~
Demiurge
I should mention, I also use mine with Yamaha HS-80 monitors most of the time,
which takes a lot out of the equation.

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kazinator
Note that tiny vacuum tubes already exist. Look at any vacuum fluorescent
display (e.g. nearby microwave oven).

Also, when tubes were in their heyday, there existed miniature tubes: perhaps
not as small as this new one, but a lot smaller than a 12AX7/ECC83.

Check out the vacuum tube hearing aid pages in the Hearing Aid Museum:

[http://www.hearingaidmuseum.com/](http://www.hearingaidmuseum.com/)

Can't believe they made kids wear such things. :)

~~~
joezydeco
Noritake is one of the largest global manufacturers of VFD displays. This is
no coincidence.

~~~
kazinator
I'm looking at some Noritake data sheets for VFD's.

Looks like you could possibly just use _those_ things as distortion elements.

From the picture it looks like this part is a dual triode device. The groups
of three pins on either side are the anode/grid/cathode, and the four pins in
the middle are separate filament circuits. 12AX7 and similar tubes usually
have only three pins for two filaments: the filaments are in series with a
center tap for hooking them up in parallel.

If this thing is similar to VFD's, it can probably run at around 20V for the
anode voltage, and a small voltage for the filaments, around 2V.

It would be interesting to develop a tube board for the ADA MP-1 guitar pre-
amp with these things. The stock one uses a pair of 12AX7's. A 9V power feed
is used for the filaments, and 190V for the anode voltage. That could all be
gutted out, and a simpler transformer used which doesn't provide a high
voltage tap. The silicon side of the MP-1 runs on +/-15V rails; the same
underlying transformer tap could could power the Noritake tubes.

~~~
joezydeco
I wonder if you could do some kind of crazy circuit bending by turning the VFD
into a distortion device, with the characters displayed on the unit as part of
the input.

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Aardwolf
Does it give light and a warm glow, though? :)

~~~
droopyEyelids
You're at the bottom of the list, but i can't help but feel this is the most
important thing to consider.

~~~
ris
Absolutely. I have a strong feeling these tubes are never going to "sound"
quite the same unless they look (and basically _are_ ) _just_ like the
_genuine_ originals. The placebo effect is incredibly strong.

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diydsp
Coolest thing is that it uses only 2% the power of comparable tubes.

But it's confusing: There is already a model of tube called 6P1 (1).

Anyway, who is this for? Engineers/instrument designers? Korg to use
internally?

(1) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6P1P](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6P1P)

~~~
amdolan
_Who is this for? Engineers /instrument designers? Korg to use internally?_

This is an important question. I doubt I'll have the chance to use this unless
someone in Asia makes a knock off.

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arunc
How are harmonics generated by the tube better than those generated by IC?

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Shivetya
it plays into that old joke about audiophiles listening to hardware. Perhaps
the distortion has properties that ICs fail to emulate, or likely put three of
these guys in a room and a blind listening test will have four results.

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GFK_of_xmaspast
There's a reason the audiophile community has rejected double blind testing.

~~~
sitkack
It doesn't offer the bouquet of pseudo science that they demand.

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serf
I wonder what a tube-on-a-chip computer could do, as far as performance/size.

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morokhovets
I'm sure these Korg tubes are designed for amplification not for computing.

~~~
hamiltonkibbe
With enough gain, anything can be used for computing!

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dzhiurgis
Is it worth having tube amp for use with 24/192 records or is it's use is
exclusive to vinyl?

