
Relocating to Copenhagen considered harmful - cphhell
http://www.easyexpat.com/forums/copenhagen-housing-hell-t27714.html
======
sounddust
The problem is that you sent e-mail instead of calling.

I had the same experience in a nearby city, sending 30-40 emails for every 1
response. I finally decided to get a prepaid SIM and start calling people, and
suddenly things became much easier.

The person who I eventually rented an apartment from explained that she placed
the ad in the morning, went to work, and received my call (and a few others)
before she returned home to read her e-mail, which contained over 100 replies.
The people who called already had appointments to see the apartment, so she
wasn't even going to look at the mails unless those people were uninterested.
She also remarked that she could tell from our brief initial conversation that
I seemed like a nice person, which helped my chances; she doesn't get that
benefit from an email conversation.

Looking at it from a potential landlord's point of view, it makes sense that
calling an ad that has just been placed is going to have the highest success
rate; not everyone checks their mail as often as tech-minded people.

~~~
cphhell
Sage advice, I'll probably try it. Still, this may fix _my_ immediate problem
but it doesn't do anything for the elephant in the room that, judging from the
comments here, was hardly addressed:

 _she returned home to read her e-mail, which contained over 100 replies._

 _THIS_ is the real problem. At the end of the day (or the week) it doesn't
matter _how_ one out of the 100 candidates is selected; what matters is that
99 fools will have to keep looking. Finding housing shouldn't be like applying
to Google.

~~~
sounddust
What are you claiming is the "real problem?" I'd argue that the housing market
in CPH is no more scarce than any major city, and the only reason it seems so
to you is because you were seriously handicapping yourself by not optimizing
your approach.

The fact that my landlord's ad received over 100 replies just indicates that
there's a pool of "bottom performers" who are repeatedly trying to find
housing by responding to ads despite the fact that they're doing some things
wrong. Every new ad is going to receive a large number of responses from this
same group of hopeless people. If they want to find a place, they're going to
have to find out what's wrong with their approach and make some changes, just
as I had to do.

------
rickmb
Wow. Just wow. You've basically managed to reinforce just about any stereotype
of an ignorant, unprepared American who shouldn't even be trying to live
abroad.

This quote says it all:

> The building looked like a century old, fourth floor with no elevator (seems
> to be the norm almost everywhere)

BTW, one of the first things you should figure out when relocating is how the
local housing market works, otherwise you will get screwed. Guess what: it
works the same way the other way around (what do you think a European will
experience if they try to move to NYC unprepared?).

~~~
0x12
My least favorite bit is the part that says "I'm now seriously considering to
cut my losses, call it quits and fly back to civilization.".

As if civilization is determined by the housing situation and/or your own
efforts required in order to get affordable housing, and any place that
doesn't instantly give you a place to live within your means is not civilized.

~~~
cipherpunk
Nevermind that Copenhagen is arguably one of the nicest cities in the world,
in one of the most "civilised" nations in the world. Ugh.

------
thirsteh
Copenhagen is one of the most expensive and over-crowded cities in the world.
I'm not surprised that you couldn't find something in a rush. People sign
their kids up for housing when they're born in this city.

That said, it sounds like your scope is something like the inner city of
Copenhagen. That's a terrible starting point. It's much easier to find an
apartment in the greater Copenhagen area: Frederiksberg, Albertslund,
Ballerup, Brøndby, Gentofte, Gladsaxe, Glostrup, Greve Strand, Herlev,
Hvidovre, Ishøj, Lyngby-Taarbæk, Rødovre, Søllerød, Tårnby, Vallensbæk,
Værløse.

I am surprised, however, that your employer hasn't given you any references,
tips, or even subsidized housing. Considering how hard it is to find housing
in Copenhagen as a Dane, it seems strange they would expect a foreigner to
just "figure it out".

At least get a Dane to interpret all of the Danish apartment postings you're
missing.

~~~
hmmokay
> Copenhagen is one of the most expensive and over-crowded cities in the
> world.

Overcrowded? Copenhagen has 6,100 people per km2. New York City has 10,600,
Paris has 20,900.

Expensive? Sure, but not when it comes to housing. Renting an apartment in the
city center is much cheaper in Copenhagen than in many other larger cities.

> Considering how hard it is to find housing in Copenhagen as a Dane

It used to be hard. Nowadays it isn't that bad. But you do need to ask around.
What cphhell should have done is talked to his employer - and, like you said,
he should broaden his scope. If I go to live in NYC I don't expect to get an
apartment on Times Square.

~~~
loevborg
Population density is hardly a good measure. Munich has 4300 people/km2 and,
let met tell you, it's hard to find an affordable flat there. NYC or Paris are
hardly a good comparison, either. In this sense, Munich is very crowded. In
October, in particular, the housing situation is even more difficult, given
thousands of new students. I'm sure Copenhagen is somewhat similar.

~~~
hmmokay
> Population density is hardly a good measure.

thirsteh claimed that Copenhagen was overcrowded. I didn't bring density into
the discussion.

> Munich has 4300 people/km2 and, let met tell you, it's hard to find an
> affordable flat there. NYC or Paris are hardly a good comparison, either. In
> this sense, Munich is very crowded

"Crowded" in the sense that thirsteh used refers to population density, not
whether or not it's hard to find an apartment. Also, you can't automatically
assume that it's hard to find an apartment in Copenhagen just because it is in
other cities. It's gotten a lot easier in the past few years, and if you're
willing to look beyond the city center, you'll find something pretty fast.

~~~
thirsteh
So, basically, exactly what I said? Are you just arguing for arguing's sake?
:)

------
0x12
If a small bump on the road like this is going to make you run then emigration
is probably not for you.

In time you'll have to deal with lots more friction and red tape than the
simple act of scoring a place to live in an area where such places are scarce.

If you do decide to stay, ask your colleagues if any of them would mind a
roommate to cut their rent. In environments where housing is scarce doubling
up is quite common. You might actually make someone happy to lower their
effective rent a bit.

The domain linked is funny, being an expat is never 'easy', there are always
hang-ups and issues. The grass always seems to be a lot greener on the other
side, once you arrive you realize quite quickly that each place has its
advantages _and_ its drawbacks. Easy is staying at home. Being an expat stands
for broadening your world view and your skills at the expense of some
inconvenience.

Oh, and we actually like those old buildings, the one I'm writing this from
was built in 1903.

~~~
cphhell
> then emigration is probably not for you.

I'd probably think the same if I hadn't done this exact same thing on three
different countries already without breaking a sweat (relatively speaking).

~~~
0x12
What countries were those?

Have you mastered the language?

~~~
cphhell
Suffice to say that one of them was Spain, a country with one of the lowest
percentages of English speakers in Europe, and me not speaking a word in
Spanish at the time.

Language is not the (main) issue.

------
cipherpunk
I moved to Copenhagen from the UK in February and had no problem. You just
approached it terribly -- Copenhagen is not in America, and different places
have different ways of doing things. You can't just expect foreign cultures to
play by your rules. You have to do your research and find out how the locals
do it. I got to see several nice apartments and they were decently priced, and
am spending approx. 10% of my monthly wage on rent.

"Donating half of my paycheck to the taxman in order to live in a city
overpriced by any measure is one thing."

Copenhagen has some of the highest wages in Europe. It also has fantastic
levels of social welfare, income equality, universal education and healthcare,
etc. Whining about high taxes also just comes across as so bloody
stereotypical.

~~~
cphhell
Is the 10% before or after taxes? Would love to get a sense of your rent (or
equiv. wage) range if there are no privacy concerns.

The high taxes line was just a flippant remark, I can't really complain as I
knew about it beforehand. Having said that, the perks that come from high
taxes are of little value to an expat moving there for a 1-2 year gig.

~~~
cipherpunk
Before tax. Rent is 3400 DKK, in a nice house share with two developers. Our
lease is up in January (original owner wants it back), but it has been nice
otherwise. 10 months here.

You can extrapolate the wage from this, but it's not high in the field at all.

------
Mz
Culture shock. I was a military wife and lived in Germany for a bit less than
four years. I had to deal with some culture shock when I first got there, but
not nearly as bad as many Americans who go there: My mother is German, I
already spoke some German, I knew from family stories that the furniture and
stuff is different.

One of the big issues Americans have with German homes: "The refrigerator is
the size of a dorm refrigerator!!!!" This weirds out many Americans like it's
the end of the world or something. Oh, and let's not get into the fact that
many apartments are "unfurnished"* -- by that, they mean there is no
refrigerator or stove or kitchen cabinets or light fixtures (just wires
sticking out the ceiling) or kitchen sink (just a tap sticking out the wall).
Germans move into rentals and buy appliances, kitchen cabinets, etc. The
American housing office would cut deals with landlords and go in and supply
the sink, stove, frig (an American style frig), etc. If you aren't military
and don't have a housing office bridging some of these issues for you, hey,
you get to cope on your own with the difference between what is normal in the
US and what is normal in other places.

If you aren't up for that, yeah, run back to the US and continue to measure
"civilization" solely in terms of (your concept of) material wealth, without
regard to food quality, actual culture, local history and so on. Please do so
quickly, before doing yet more damage to the public image other nations have
of us "ugly Americans".

* This was more than 2 decades ago. I have no idea if things have changed since then. Feel free to give an update if you have more current info.

~~~
Uchikoma
99% is still unfurnished, most Germans I know would never rent a furnished
place unless they are students.

Update: A kitchen is often the exception.

~~~
Mz
Most American rentals are unfurnished, but it comes with a fully outfitted
kitchen and bathroom(s). The bedrooms and dining room typically have light
fixtures in the middle of the ceiling. The only room without lights is
typically the living room. We also have closets which are a great deal less
common in Europe.

Another big difference is that most American apartments have "wall to wall
carpeting", something apparently so unusual in other countries that I often
have to explain what on earth that means to foreign friends (the carpet is
installed as part of the floor and nailed down). In your typical American
apartment, you have vinyl flooring in front of the front door, in the
bathrooms and in the kitchen. All other areas have wall to wall carpeting.
From what I gather, wood, tile or similar flooring is far more common in other
countries. I have respiratory problems and allergies. I wish I could find an
apartment here with wood floors. Wall to wall carpeting is something I loathe.
In the US, if you want wood and tile floors throughout the home to accommodate
allergies and respiratory problems, you pretty much have buy your own house
(or possibly live in New York, which I have no plans to do). In fact, wall to
wall carpeting is so common here that even if you buy a house, you probably
either have to rip out carpeting and install your own flooring or have the
house custom built.

I am betting that the lack of carpeting is something the author of this
article would view as proof of being "a dive"/slum. Lack of carpeting does
occur in some older American homes, often ones which were never upgraded. So
it tends to get interpreted by Americans as a mark of poverty. Given my health
issues, I tend to side more with some of my foreign friends who are sometimes
appalled at the idea of wall to wall carpeting and find the idea disgusting
and unclean.

Last, I will note that I have lived in five different US states and every
rental market has its quirks. I lived from age 3 to age 20 in the same town.
When I first left home, moving to another part of the US was something of a
shock as well. In short, anyone who feels strongly that the rental/housing
market should behave X way should just stay where they are. (It won't stay the
same where they are either, but the changes are likely to be more gradual and
thus less shocking than moving elsewhere.)

Peace.

~~~
hollerith
>In the US, if you want wood and tile floors throughout the home to
accommodate allergies and respiratory problems, you pretty much have buy your
own house (or possibly live in New York, which I have no plans to do).

Wood floors are plentiful in San Francisco, too, because there's a lot of pre-
WWII housing.

~~~
Mz
Thanks. San Francisco is the only large city I have ever visited that I wished
I could live in. (Granted, I haven't visited many large cities outside the
US.) But even in most large US cities, wood floors in rentals seems to
generally not be the norm. (Anyone with hard data, please correct me if I'm
wrong.)

------
JonnieCache
_> The building looked like a century old_

That's because it almost certainly is. 100 years is not an advanced age for a
building outside the US.

I have been to copenhagen and it is basically a paradise. You are lucky to be
living there.

~~~
hmmokay
Exactly - the century-old buildings is where people want to live, because on
the inside they're modernized and on the outside it's great architecture.
Here's a couple of street views from Islands Brygge, the neighborhood cphhell
mentioned:

[http://maps.google.com/maps?q=islands+brygge&ie=UTF8&...](http://maps.google.com/maps?q=islands+brygge&ie=UTF8&ll=55.667831,12.578058&spn=0.011061,0.036778&sll=55.663644,12.562222&sspn=0.010481,0.036778&t=m&vpsrc=0&radius=0.86&layer=c&cbll=55.668127,12.578483&panoid=nQ23Q-W3-HGrX1-QaQI81A&cbp=12,21.95,,0,-9.98&hnear=Islands+Brygge,+2300+K%C3%B8benhavn,+Danmark&z=15)

[http://maps.google.com/maps?q=islands+brygge&ll=55.66727...](http://maps.google.com/maps?q=islands+brygge&ll=55.667275,12.577372&spn=0.011061,0.036778&sll=55.663644,12.562222&sspn=0.010481,0.036778&t=m&vpsrc=6&radius=0.86&hq=islands+brygge&z=15&layer=c&cbll=55.666902,12.578234&panoid=q1yVOY4WXAA1lxtRF4JMHg&cbp=12,254.56,,0,-6.72)

------
biehl
I guess you need to talk to people to calibrate your expectations before
looking. $750/month is simply not much in Copenhagen, I'm sorry to say.

I've looked a bit lately, and it is easy to find nice, 100sqm, modern flats
with elevator etc. for 2000 Euros/month. It is possible but more difficult to
find them for 1500. And to pay less one has to look for smaller, less modern
etc.

However, the buildings in Copenhagen are generally about 100 years old (the
one I live in now is from around 1920). And elevators are very rare in these
old buildings. And there is a large body of old, small appartments with tiny
bathrooms like the one you describe (around Copenhagen they are even called
"Copenhagen bathrooms") - so if one looks at flats in the cheaper end of the
spectrum that is what one will find. With eg. postdoc salaries after tax
around 3000 Euros it is possible to find a place to live for most expats.

~~~
cphhell
Already replied on a sibling comment but once again, the $750/month was for a
single room, no more than 15-20sqm, in a two-bedroom flat. If that's "on the
cheaper end of the spectrum", I might have to negotiate a raise.

The "Copenhagen bathroom" was the single worst turn off in the whole deal.
Glad to know it's not like this everywhere in the city.

~~~
biehl
OK - $750/month for a room in a shared flat is actually reasonable. But if I
were you, I would look at the rooms at around $1000/month. The selection
should be much nicer and with fewer competitors. Then you can take your time
to get advice from colleagues and probably find something equally nice for
$750/month within 6 months.

------
Joakal
You say it's a job offer, what had the employer suggested for accommodation?
If they're willing to hire foreigners, I'd think they'd be able to accommodate
you.

------
lobster_johnson
If Copenhagen is anything like other Scandinavian countries (I'm Norwegian),
then it goes like this:

\- If the ad doesn't list dates and times when the apartment will be shown,
you phone up the landlord and make an appointment.

\- You go and see the apartment. Obviously you will be in competition with
other applicants.

\- Talk to the landlord and make a good impression -- do whatever is needed to
make the owner pick _you_.

\- If you are interested in renting, you write down your contact details in
the applicant book.

\- The landlord will go home and consider the applicants and phone up the
lucky winner.

\- The landlord may require a credit assessment to determine your financial
situation. Some landlords require references from earlier tenancies.

\- You meet the landlord to sign a formal lease (Scandinavian countries are
pretty strict about landlord/tenant rights) and get the keys.

When I was renting in NYC, things were different. None of the places I rented
(which I found on Craigslist) would have open house dates; instead, you would
make a personal appointment with the landlord. Also, landlords seemed to
prefer email.

~~~
michaelcampbell
Is the rental housing market so competitive in all/most of the bigger
Scandanavian cities?

~~~
lobster_johnson
The housing market is quite competitive in Norway's bigger cities. Oslo in
particular is crazy and expensive; as a student you basically can't afford
your own flat, and almost everyone ends up sharing with several other people.
I don't know what the situation is like in Sweden and Denmark at the moment.

~~~
cphhell
Not welcoming at all: [http://universitypost.dk/article/new-internationals-
angered-...](http://universitypost.dk/article/new-internationals-angered-
housing-chaos)

As I am not a student, my main problem is not so much the cost as (1) the
scarcity and the inane "competition" it promotes and (2) the sad state of the
apartments condition, at least compared to modern housing in other first-world
countries.

~~~
lobster_johnson
Strange that you find the state of Danish apartments to be sur-par. My
experience has been the opposite. I am interested to hear what your criteria
are.

Fire regulations, plumbing regulations and so on are very strict, so
internally you shouldn't really find any qualitative difference between
Scandinavia and "other first-world countries".

In Scandinavia we have a strong affection for historic buildings, an affection
that extends to interiors. We like fireplaces, creaky hardwood floors, crown
mouldings, exposed brick walls, that sort of thing.

So buildings might feel distinctly unmodern, even though they aren't really.
Some facilities may be lacking. Elevators are only common in somewhat newer
(post-1980) buildings, for example. Common laundry rooms are usually pretty
awful. And I have never come across a Scandinavian apartment building that has
a porter.

But these are not important things. So again, based on what criteria are you
judging Copenhagen?

~~~
cphhell
For starters, having a real bathroom with a bath tub, not these tiny solitary
confinement cells.

This a typical mid/low end first-world bathroom: <http://www.apollo-
plus.co.uk/Design/Leigh.jpg>

This isn't:
[http://images.travelpod.com/users/skylarking/1.1230340500.ds...](http://images.travelpod.com/users/skylarking/1.1230340500.dscn0810.jpg)

Edit: According to <http://www.airbnb.com/rooms/111335>, this "cute" style has
its own name and history:

 _the type of bathroom typically referred to as a "Copenhagen bathroom". It
basically means, that in the "old days", none of the working-class-apartments
had showers. Eventually, this changed, but many of the apartments were so
small, that it was almost impossible to fit in a big, modern bathroom.
However, you get used to it very quickly and it is quite charming in its own
way :)_

Um, no, I'd rather not have to get used to it.

~~~
lobster_johnson
So of all the things that might classify a first-world country, you picked a
_bathtub_? Not sanitation, not drinkable water, not reliable electricity...
but a bathtub!

Look, some apartments have small bathrooms. For historical reasons, some old
apartment buildings even have external bathrooms (or toilets) that are in the
hallway/stairway. This is not true about _all_ Copenhagen buildings. But it's
true about some, just as it's true that a lot of buildings in London are
afflicted with damp, bad plumbing, shoddy wiring and ugly wallpapers.

But I don't think it's fair to dismiss an entire city as being somehow not
"civilization" based on the layouts of a minority of its bath facilities.

In fact, it sounds to me like you might just be a bit spoiled. Have you
visited any non-first-world countries? Try Ukraine. You will feel like a
billionaire.

~~~
cphhell
If I was moving to Ukraine, Cambodia or Somalia, for one thing I would have
done my homework (and vaccines) beforehand, and for second and I wouldn't have
first-world expectations. But here we're talking about friggin' Denmark, the
happiest (allegedly) country in the world and among the top in quality of
life, so forgive me for taking sanitation, drinkable water and, yes, bathtubs
for granted. New Jersey, Athens or Madrid are not exactly famous for their
prosperity and yet finding half-decent accommodation there within a week and
without a "network" (yet another ugly danish surprise that was brought to my
attention) was a breeze in comparison.

I'm glad that not _all_ Copenhagen buildings are moldy smelling dumps. I will
be even more glad if I was unlucky to see one of the few exceptions and the
majority are actually decent but I'm not holding my breath (no pun intended).

~~~
lobster_johnson
I think that you are pissed because you have unreasonable and weird
expectations about trivial things.

Bathtubs? Danes are (allegedly) the happiest country in the world because they
have free health care, excellent education, wealth, political freedom,
stability, etc. etc. Not because of the size of their baths.

I know how the effect of culture shock can be; everything seems weird and even
small trivial things are horribly, almost infuriatingly alienating. But
culture shock is a psychological, irrational phenomenon. This is about you,
not about the country.

------
burgerbrain
The author is out of touch. 750/mo is what you might expect for a single
person, low amenity place in a nice part of town in a _mid-tier american_
city.

What kind of housing market is this guy used to, rural Kansas?

~~~
cphhell
Single guy, usually house sharing. Never paid more than 650/mo in the states
for better living conditions.

The 750/mo price was for a single room in a two bedroom apartment.

~~~
burgerbrain
In a nice part of town that is not unreasonable.

------
cphhell
Posting this from a throwaway account for obvious reasons, feel free to
include same/different experiences or offer suggestions.

~~~
route66
The situation you describe seems very recognizable througout a lot of european
caitals or bigger agglomerations. During my last searches I encountered all
the points you mention in Utrecht/NL, I hear comparable things about Amsterdam
, Cologne, Frankfurt, Hamburg or Paris.

So, welcome to a european capital! 1 hour travel to work, 5th floor without
lift is the way to go: older houses far outside of the big cities. The suburbs
are already filled with locals who do not want/cannot afford to live in the
centers. I'm completely unaware of the situation in Denmark, but just looking
on google maps tells me that maybe Roskilde or Farum could be places to look
for.

Also: you move to another country: other habits. If it's the situation on the
housing market I cannot tell, but the million ways of being (un)friendly or
(not) answering mails/letters, dealing with business transactions etc are the
things which makes relocating difficult at heart, they are not just
annoyances. I live in "another" country for some 20 years and will move to
another one this month: I expect (and already experienced) a lot of impedance
mismatches which could trigger a "considered harmful" post, but in the end I
will have to adapt to enjoy the good things of it.

Good luck anyway!

~~~
cipherpunk
Most of my friends live in Amager, Østerbro, etc. Anyone expecting to find
affordable, modern accommodation easily in historic city centres is deluding
themselves to a degree. Copenhagen has one of the more modern transportation
systems in the world, so commuting is hardly an effort.

~~~
mst
It strikes me a big part of the problem may be where he mentions "30 minute
drive" - there's a big difference between 30mins behind the wheel of a car and
60mins on the copenhagen transport system (which, yes, is stunning)

~~~
cphhell
I've always picked my location so that I don't have to commute more than half
an hour each way but if that's what it takes to find a modern half-decent
place in this city, I may consider living further.

