
Laid off (2008) - pella
http://www.expatsoftware.com/Articles/2008/05/laid-off-one-thing-you-absolutely-need.html
======
mysterydip
I was laid off abruptly two months ago. It was a foreign situation to me; I
had always lined up a bigger and better position. I was a bit like a fish out
of water: filing for unemployment, sprucing up the resume, going to all the
job boards. With a mortgage and a 14 month old, it was constantly on my mind.

They gave me two months' severance, so that plus our emergency fund took a
little of the heat off. I landed a job that, while not an immediate step up,
has room for growth.

What was nice was the extra time I had after say a half day of hitting the job
boards and applying, to take my daughter to the park or help out with errands.
In the evenings, I was able to focus on getting my latest game released on the
app stores, which launched right before I started the new job.

While I wouldn't want to repeat that scenario for a while, I'm grateful for
it. It really opened up the possibilities of where I wanted to move next
(career-wise and location-wise).

------
chinese_dan
It sounds great in theory, but if you aren't careful, you will come back with
less motivation and skills than you had before you left.

I lived in Asia for a few years as a digital nomad of sorts. My only means of
income was freelance software development.

It only worked for me because I have excellent discipline, but most expats I
met had a lifestyle of: drinking, partying, smoking weed, and not doing
everything possible to not have a regular job. The long-term expats (more that
5 years) were a pretty miserable bunch a well.

While this is fun, it's a rude awakening when you have to come back to the
real world and actually make a living and you have been left in the dust. I
know a few people that had to move back in with their parents because they
couldn't find work after their travel experience.

..and involving your kids? A bad idea. Many governments do not offer you the
same protections and rights that you have in the USA. It's hard enough with
couples, nearly impossible with kids.

~~~
jasonkester
_The long-term expats (more that 5 years) were a pretty miserable bunch a
well._

Yeah, what's the deal with this, anyway? It's something I've noticed as well.

The worst case seems to be US Expat Surfers living in Central America,
preferably owning property there. None of those guys seem to have been surfing
at all in the last month, but they're certainly quick to make sure you know
you're not welcome intruding on their waves or taking up a table in their
personal favorite bar.

I was actually considering setting up shop down in Nicaragua at one point, but
that factor quickly put me off.

Check out the Expat Climbers you find in SE Asia for the counterpoint. Mostly
nice folk leading pleasant lives in a pleasant part of the world and getting
out on the rock all the time. Figure out what's causing the difference between
those two groups and you'll have the secret to happiness.

~~~
hans
surfers are actually more uptight than soccer moms (contrary to popular
opinion)

~~~
goblin89
I wonder if particular gut flora[0] in those who swallows ocean water
influences[1] the personality type dominant among surfers.

[0] [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/18/superbug-surfer-
stu...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/18/superbug-surfer-
study_n_7607370.html)

[1] all the recent studies linking gut bacteria to brain functions, like
[http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/06/gut-
bacter...](http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/06/gut-bacteria-on-
the-brain/395918/)

------
pmiller2
I'd like to submit a small correction:

> But nobody will hire me after six months away...

> Not true. Nobody will hire you if you're bad at what you do and have
> terrible interviewing skills.

Instead of "...and have terrible interviewing skills," it should really be
"...or have terrible interviewing skills." Being good at what you do and
having good interview skills are very different things. I can't do much of
anything with someone literally looking over my shoulder, or while being put
on the spot in front of a whiteboard, but I'm 3.5 years into my career as a
developer and doing just fine on the job.

~~~
mathattack
After 6 months of unemployment, companies do start giving you glances. It's
rare to get much more than that. Taking 6 months off can also put a big dent
in your net worth if you have fixed expenses.

~~~
whenwillitstop
What do you mean by glances? You mean they are suspicious of your work
quality? They dont want to hire you? Or they just give you a quick glance
(because of the gap) and hire you anyways?

~~~
pkaye
They will start questioning the gap in your work history and if you don't have
strong resume or interview, it may tip towards not hiring you.

~~~
a_t48
Yet another reason to make lots of friends\connections in the industry. :)

~~~
cloudjacker
Yet another reason to LIE

~~~
mathattack
This can come back to haunt you bigtime. If I knew someone materially lied on
their resume during the hiring process, I'd terminate them immediately.

~~~
flukus
Why? If they were doing there jobs satisfactorily until now then why would you
fire them for lying on their resume?

~~~
mathattack
Absolutely. Who knows what else they'll lie on later. Status? Their ability to
hit a deadline? What a customer said? I wouldn't be able to trust them again.

By your logic, if someone is doing their job satisfactorily, but they hid
several major felonies (say armed robbery, and robbing from their prior
employer) from you during the interview process, you wouldn't fire them?

I'd rather have someone have the courage to own up to their issues. If they
don't in the interview process, they won't later. And I like to hire folks who
have something to prove. But not folks who overtly lie.

~~~
flukus
> Absolutely. Who knows what else they'll lie on later. Status? Their ability
> to hit a deadline? What a customer said? I wouldn't be able to trust them
> again.

But in this case you're firing them for being honest and not keeping up the
lie.

You'd be sending a signal to all your staff that they better keep lying.

~~~
mathattack
I've never seen anyone confess to lying on their resume. I've seen several
instances of people being caught. If someone came clean, that's one thing, but
I've never seen it happen.

------
moises_silva
May be is just me, but I can't possibly enjoy a vacation knowing I need to get
back to look for a job. I much rather negotiate with my employer taking 3 to 6
months off without pay to go travel, or 3 to 6 months part time. Not an option
for everyone, but if you're good and you're in a company that values you
that's a very realistic option. I have a small kid and soon a mortgage, so
what I will probably end up doing is negotiate part time working remotely for
~4 months so I can travel with my family.

~~~
flukus
When I'm on holidays I don't want to think about money. If you don't have a
job to go back to then how long your cash reserves will last is something you
think about every time you pull your wallet out. Especially if you've got a
mortgage, I imagine having kids would make it even worse.

~~~
moises_silva
I am not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with my comment. It does seem
like we're saying kind of the same thing. May be you meant to post a parent
comment? :)

~~~
flukus
Definitely agreeing :)

------
Zelphyr
> You're going to get blasted by 100 degree heat, power-wafted by smells of
> the most amazing street food one minute and an open sewer the next,
> assaulted with music from a thousand bars, and crammed into a tiny room
> overlooking it all with a fan that doesn't work.

To each his/her own I guess but that doesn't sound appealing at all.

~~~
kasey_junk
You can replace that sentence with similar ones about hiking the AP trail,
riding your bike from Portland to San Diego or building the biggest slip n
slide in your neighborhood and the authors argument holds though.

~~~
Zelphyr
I agree but the author seems to be very specific about traveling to Southeast
Asia. Or Africa first, if its May/June.

I actually like your ideas better!

~~~
emodendroket
Well obviously whatever he did is the only sensible thing and if you don't do
exactly the same you are a sucker.

------
noname123
Tangential, but I'm curious if people have any staycation ideas?

For peeps who aren't laid off but just want to chillax at home. Isn't
traveling to some exotic location after all about switching your scenery,
breaking out of your routine to give yourself permission for the unconscious
mind free to wander, reflect and renew?

For instance, instead of going to Bangkok, for cuisine, the beach, nightlife
and Buddhist temples, why not order something that you normally don't get at a
Thai takeout menu and eat it at a place you normally wouldn't eat at, book a
day-spa appointment at a local 5-star hotel instead of your local gym, go to a
concert at a music venue you have been before (or other nightlife
establishment you'd otherwise go to in SE Asia) and go to a local
meditation/wellness center for sitting meditation or some other random place
that induces meditation, reflection and all that "wanderlust" feeling evoked
in traveling brochures. Try to schedule all of your appointments in a span of
3-4 days, give yourself permission to spend liberally as you'd at a normal
vacation and resist the urges to do any of your usual routine you'd normally
and take the following Monday or Friday off.

Anyways would love to hear other people's staycation ideas or Sunday routines,
similar to this:
[http://topics.nytimes.com/top/features/timestopics/series/su...](http://topics.nytimes.com/top/features/timestopics/series/sunday_routine/index.html)
[http://gawker.com/a-statistical-analysis-of-the-new-york-
tim...](http://gawker.com/a-statistical-analysis-of-the-new-york-times-sunday-
ro-1732094100)

More specially, not necessarily as a Sunday routine to prepare and get in gear
for the upcoming week; but what do you guys do after a major stress event,
burn-out, in midst of existential crisis, post-breakup, the hangover cure
morning after going on an alcoholic, drug-induced or emotionally-induced
bender; is it as simple as getting a latte espresso fix at your Starbucks or
does it have to be flying out to Bangkok for a 6-month recovery getaway?

~~~
pcsanwald
Learn a fun instrument. buy a drumset, take some lessons from a good local
teacher, have a blast. Once you get some basic skills, playing drums or
electric bass with your favorite record is a huge amount of fun.

Or, learn to box or other fun sport. I've sparred with the author of the
gawker article for many years every sunday.

------
billy8988
Another destination: India. If you are a female, then south India. You can
stay at descent hotels in Bangalore or Chennai for $25/day. Another $20 per
day for food. Watch how multinational IT companies treat their employees. Feel
good about yourself and come back rejuvenated.

~~~
solvedit
I don't spend $20/day on food in Boston or Paris. Does it really cost that in
India? Are my nationalist blinders on? Somehow I imagined that it would be
much cheaper there.

~~~
parennoob
You can easily spend a tenth of that and get good food in India if you eat at
places where the average local person does. However, speaking as an Indian,
most foreigners probably don't want to play that crapshoot, because there is
always a chance you'll get sick due to lack of hygiene in food prep.

The hotels that cater to Westerners typically charge a lot more, and rates are
more comparable to hotels in a cheap European city. Theoretically, with them
you get a guarantee of food that is prepared with better safety standards.
Whether this is practically true I have no idea.

Ironically, the cheapest way to live and eat in India would be to rent an
apartment and get a trustworthy cook to come in and cook fresh food for you
every day. Your daily bill will be way less than $20. However, setting this up
requires a fair amount of legwork and contacts, which (understandably) someone
who is looking for a vacation will not find attractive.

~~~
paulmd
I realize this is a fucking gross idea that amounts to poop pills, but there
is probably a market for a market for digestive inoculations against local
bacteria. Being able to build up a resistance to the local gut bacteria in
advance - before you have to commit 100% to all of the local fauna - would be
invaluable. Gut bacteria almost certainly play a large part in that balance.

~~~
Tsagadai
They exist. Cost me $15 at a local chemist (in Australia) to get an
immunization for common stomach bugs in Southeast Asia/India). It also isn't
impossible to buy antibiotics before you go and to take them with you.

------
eljimmy
My contract job ended abruptly recently and I'm now in this very situation. I
put $10k away for an emergency fund to carry me through until my next gig. No
children (someday!), no mortage/debt, no obligations. It's great!

While I personally decided not to travel as I've done a lot of that in the
past couple years, I have tried to just relax and enjoy the time off. I've
been spending time learning new languages and frameworks, working out
religiously, eating healthy, and just going with the flow of life. It's been
great for my overall happiness.

There's a quote that comes to mind after reading this article: "Life moves
pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss
it."

------
MrPatan
Interviewing well is part of your job.

Let me say that again:

Interviewing well is part of your job.

You are not a good developer if you don't interview well, because by not
interviewing well you just deprived that company of your skills. Now that code
is worse. And it's your fault. Had you done your job (interviewing) properly,
that code would be better.

It's part of your job to show people how good you are. It's sales, yes. You
know your product (you) very well and know how it would help the customer. So
make sure you get that message across. Go read some books about sales.

Get good at interviewing.

~~~
Sumaso
I disagree. There are people that I know that might not interview well, but
have a huge list of people that are willing to vouch for them, because they do
great work.

------
fidla
BTDT. He's right. Do it now. But if you're over 50 with kids you should
probably look for that new job instead.

~~~
dandare
You mean over 30 with kids? Or should we dust the authentic developer cliche?

~~~
ma2rten
Or any age with kids and/or mortgage.

------
Animats
There's the opposite extreme - go to Shentzen. Visit the shops that sell
electronics parts. Take some factory tours. Meet people who are doing advanced
electronics work in the back of a small shop. Buy a phone whose kernel was
compiled three days ago. Get a sense of how stuff is made.

 _“One week of work in Shenzhen is equal to one month at the Silicon Valley”._

~~~
dasmoth
How accessible is Shenzhen without existing connections there? Are, e.g.,
factory tours reasonably easy to organise?

~~~
Animats
There are ways to get connected.[1] If you speak electronics but not Chinese,
it's possible to communicate.

[1]
[http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Visit_Shenzhen](http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Visit_Shenzhen)

~~~
dasmoth
Thanks! And interesting...

------
jimmydddd
Taking six months or a year off and then jumping back into the work force was
a lot different in (early) 2008 than it is now.

Edit: Tim Ferriss said (in 2007) that employers will be impressed and amazed
if you tell them that you took a year off to travel. In 2016, I don't think
you would get a chance to tell them about it.

~~~
jacalata
I did it in 2015, didn't have any trouble coming back and getting a job last
October. Definitely a lot of people sounded amazed and impressed during
interviews.

~~~
jimmydddd
That's great to hear. I've heard that many companies will just toss your
resume if you've been out of work for a year or more.

~~~
jacalata
Well, I was only out of work eight months so I can't say for sure that people
don't cut off at 'a year'. But based on the reactions I got, I'd be quite
surprised if that was a standard practice. I can imagine it being more likely
if being out of work was 'I lost my job and couldn't find another one' instead
of 'I quit my job to do x instead for a while'.

------
overgard
Ugh, if you want to travel, then travel, but glorifying being a rich tourist
in a poor country like it's some great calling that will cleanse your soul is
obnoxious to me. I've traveled. I hate traveling. If I get laid off I'm going
to read some books and practice painting.

------
keyboardhitter
I got laid off recently. I took two weeks vacation; one week to see some
friends in a place I love, and one week just to myself, to get all the errands
done that I never had time for when working at the demanding startup job. My
mind wandered far in vacation land, and it felt great. Yet, I felt my
conscience nagging me.

Because of that little mosquito-like feeling, I suspect that if I vacationed
any longer, I wouldn't be doing my best in interviews now. To each their own,
I suppose. The writer's long term suggestion really surprised me. Maybe I'm
missing out on a feeling of true detachment and serenity? Hmmm.

------
ojosilva
> By 9 months [traveling], I'm pretty much ready to commit to a real job in a
> real office just so that I can start using my brain again.

I use my brain intensively while traveling. Lot's of brain functions are
running at full throttle: cognition, language, problem solving, spacial, to
name a few. I don't understand how can the OP feel that he's not using his
brain while roaming the planet, specially developing countries where your day-
to-day "templates" tend to apply the least.

------
emodendroket
I didn't really care for the tone of this piece and I think I'd have a lot
harder time enjoying a vacation if I were worrying about the fact that I'd
just been laid off.

------
donretag
Traveling is not for everyone, so it depends on your financial situation, but
I do approve of the Africa recommendation. Absolutely loved southern Africa
(South Africa up to Malawi).

------
wyclif
I took this advice back in 2007 (I arrived at the conclusions he makes here on
my own, one year earlier when the financial crisis was starting to emerge),
but I didn't go to southeast Asia then, I went to Israel. And I met my future
wife there for the first time. The year after that I got another job back in
the States.

So I think this was good advice for me.

------
thesmallestcat
"Three Lame Excuses," or, a brief glance at the real world. I think I threw up
a little reading the post (out of envy of course).

------
j4pe
This is terrible advice. I've lived the digital nomad life the author
describes and worked in the areas he names [1], and his recommendation of
Bangkok's Khao San Rd as a nice place to relax is alarming enough to cast
doubt on everything else he says.

Or perhaps he's just really into prostitutes.

Regardless, there's a kernel of good advice here: take the opportunity to do
something crazy, something outside the norm when laid off. Write, build, draw,
compete, whatever it is you love that your job prevented you from doing all
the time. It'll be far more rewarding during and after your unemployment than
drinking cheap beers in foreign cafes for six months.

1: [http://j4p3.com/the-digital-nomad](http://j4p3.com/the-digital-nomad)

~~~
racl101
"Regardless, there's a kernel of good advice here: take the opportunity to do
something crazy, something outside the norm when laid off."

I was thinking the same thing

I would never go to Bangkok unless I was interested in hookers , which I'm
not.

I would take the opportunity to try something different.

Like smoke a weed, workout, work at a burger joint as a burger flipper and
date my daughter's best friend.

~~~
itsuart
>Like smoke a weed, workout, work at a burger joint as a burger flipper and
date my daughter's best friend.

What a beautiful story!

------
jasonkester
"Internet Points" are a strange thing.

This is the 4th article that people have submitted from my blog in the last
hour, evidently hoping to score some points off the success of the other thing
I have on the front page and thus be able to... well... there must be some
benefit I'm not aware of.

But sure. It's fun to watch, and I'm happy for the traffic. Here's a link to
the original discussion for this article, which actually turns out to be one
of the first things that put Hacker News on to my radar:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=184930](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=184930)

It's also one of my personal favorites, so it's nice to see it get some
renewed love.

~~~
titanomachy
HN points are particularly useless as far as internet points go. You're the
one who benefits, assuming you value the exposure.

~~~
iou
Lol, where is the faucet for these "Internet points"? I need some!

------
rwallace
So let's say you get laid off and you've got a year's worth of savings in the
bank.

Spending the next six months burning half of that with nothing but memories to
show for it is really terrible advice! That stash of money is a precious
asset. It's the thing that will obviate the need for any special mental tricks
to take job interviews without fear and negotiate salary and working
conditions from a strong bargaining position.

I'm not saying you shouldn't spend six months in Thailand if that's what you
want to do. But, unless you are already independently wealthy, only do it
after you have arranged for some kind of income while you are there.

~~~
sokoloff
What's the point of having a year's worth of savings if it's all sacrosanct?
It's there to be spent on rainy days. I agree that sitting in a coffee shop
drinking and smoking the days away isn't a good idea, but by all means take
some time to decompress and get your head right after a blow to the ego and
psyche that getting laid off might represent.

3 months in, you've still got more runway than most job seekers and can still
interview and negotiate from a neutral position. You don't have to go walking
in tail between your legs and begging for a job to put food on the table.

~~~
cossatot
Put it in the bank and do it for 3x as long in your 60s

~~~
totalZero
If you do it in your thirties then the moments of self reflection and wealth
of unfamiliar experiences will color the way you think for the rest of your
life and career.

------
ryandrake
EDITing to soften the edge:

> You have a pile of saving and a severance package.

Well, there's your first bad assumption. Oh, wait, later you address this:

> You can't possibly be serious. Are you saying that you've been working in IT
> for all these years and haven't put away a lousy ten grand??? Shame on you.
> Get a book on life skills and open a bank account fer cryin' out loud.

OK, thanks for the lecture. I'm still not the audience for your advice. How to
alienate an audience!

Reminiscent of [1] and [2]

1: [http://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/why-i-quit-my-
jo...](http://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/why-i-quit-my-job-to-
travel-the-world)

2: [http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/i-took-a-big-
pay...](http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/i-took-a-big-pay-cut-to-
follow-my-dream-says-patronising-wanker-20160803111779)

~~~
cushychicken
I'd strongly advise you to reevaluate some things about your lifestyle if you
haven't managed to save any of your IT salary.

~~~
moises_silva
What's with the judgement? A lot of people work in IT in places where the pay
is good but not that good that many situations can lead to little or no
savings. Having many dependants doesn't help either (kids, sick family
members, elders you need to support and what not).

It reminds me of the bubble some of us live on thinking everyone has it good
and that it's just a matter of being disciplined to save money.

~~~
totalZero
I don't see any judgment in his sentence, only a suggestion. Seems wise to me.

> (kids, sick family members, elders you need to support and what not)

All of those things can lead to surprise costs, which serves to justify saving
some coin.

~~~
moises_silva
Fair enough, I may very well be reading too much into it, but, just to explain
myself: A comment _strongly_ advising to do personal changes in someone's
life, and lifestyle in particular, based on barely any information on that
person's life, does sound judgmental to me. It's implying that he or she is
doing something seriously wrong if he/she hasn't managed to save money and
it's on the IT business (like if that were a guarantee of earning good money).
The " _seriously_ wrong" interpretation comes from the " _strong_ advice
emphasis". The comment is clearly making it sound like someone in IT who
hasn't managed to save doesn't know what his doing with his finances and needs
basic advice on lifestyle and saving choices.

> All of those things can lead to surprise costs, which serves to justify
> saving some coin

I think you're missing my point here. Of course it's a good idea to save, but
not everyone's circumstances at any time allow to.

