
Don't Look for Talent, Find People Who Do Things - fks
http://tuckermax.me/dont-look-for-talent-find-people-who-do-things/
======
MaxScheiber
I find this particularly tingling because Tucker himself is a perfect example
of doing things. He gets a lot of flak from people calling him a poor writer
and lambasting him for writing about some of the "finer" topics in life. Yet,
he is a New York Times bestselling author, and his detractors are not.

~~~
michaelochurch
He's the worst kind of shitty writer. He's clearly intelligent. His writing is
shit because he doesn't care.

Why should I spend time reading him if he doesn't put time into the quality of
his writing?

~~~
obstacle1
Nobody reads Tucker Max hoping to catch a glimpse of literary genius. His
stories are pure content, and his audience likes that. Fans want to hear
Tucker's stories about sexual exploits and blackout drinking, and don't
particularly care whether or not said exploits are described using
alliteration.

So you shouldn't spend time reading him, because you aren't his intended
audience.

------
chrisbennet
The other day I saw a "looking for technical partner" ad in craigslist by
someone who listed "I'm creative" as one of the assets they would be bringing
to the partnership.

It made me think about the word "creative". I thought to myself, if I was
considering teaming up with this person I would asked them:

"What have you created?"

~~~
dsirijus
Often, people confuse swirling ideas seeking form in their head for
creativity.

~~~
iamareyoucreat
I think the other situation is more common: smart people with swirling unique
thoughts keep them hidden because they don't consider themselves creative.

~~~
bennyg
I agree completely. When I was in Art school I was working on a project that
instead of using charcoal to create the darks on a white sheet of paper, the
assignment was to use a white conte crayon to denote the light areas on a
black sheet of paper. I had taken my assignment home and was working on it in
my living room when a neighbor and friend of mine knocked on my door and he
came in and looked at what I was doing. He was a Mech. E student, and a damn
smart person. He told me to my face that he could never do what I was doing
because he wasn't creative.

"Creative" doesn't just apply to visual arts - it's a thinking style. And
every human, ever, is creative - just in different avenues. And those avenues
are all obtainable by all people.

~~~
nether
Today "creative" usually refers to originality, not the act of creation. It's
no worse than using "engineer" to mean computer programmer rather than someone
who works on something with an engine.

~~~
gambogi
Well, if we're getting our etymology on, 'engine' originally referred to any
trick, device, or machine. An engineer was someone who created engines. It
only took on the association with steam locomotives in the 1800s.

I would also like point out that early computers were also known as analytic
engines.

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nordsieck
I wonder how that compares to these results:

[http://bobsutton.typepad.com/my_weblog/2009/10/selecting-
tal...](http://bobsutton.typepad.com/my_weblog/2009/10/selecting-talent-the-
upshot-from-85-years-of-research.html)

My gut reaction is that there is sample restriction going on: that there is a
minimum intelligence create a large volume of coherent software. Additionally,
there are a number of practices that are illegal in the US (not sure about
other countries) like structured interviews, so the list of things that
companies can use is somewhat limited.

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farnsworth
I can't work on projects outside of work because I work ~12 hours a day, 6-7
days a week and there's no way I can free up the long periods of time needed
to create something good. I can't talk up my technical accomplishments in an
interview because my job isn't particularly technically demanding or
interesting, beyond the company name. I think I'm a good interviewer except
when it comes to talking about anything I've actually worked on after college
(1 year ago). Any tips on how to get past this?

~~~
beat
Wait, you're working 60+ hours on boring crap that doesn't advance your
career?

WHAT THE HELL?!? STOP THAT!!

Take another job. ANY other job. Flip burgers if you must. Get your priorities
in order. 60+ hour work weeks on something you don't utterly love leave you no
time to have a life, much less build a career.

~~~
tekromancr
And sometimes you desperately need money.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Not often, plenty of people survive with very little, even in developed
nations.

~~~
tekromancr
I owe 5 figures and make 4. Any money I make goes to rent and ramen. I would
kill for consistaint work programming, which is the only thing I am really
good for.

------
the_economist
I like to ask people about what they do in their private life. What are their
hobbies. Do they have a lot going on? People who keep themselves busy tend to
have a strong motor and usually apply that to their work life as well.
Similarly, people don't do much of anything outside of work can bring this
habit into the workplace.

~~~
danielweber
"In my free time I try to keep my house clean enough so that the kids don't
manage to vibrationally attune it to the elemental plane of trash."

"Oh, was that not what you wanted me to say?"

~~~
jabbernotty
That isn't the same as "a person who doesn't do much of anything".

I think it's more in the spirit of "what hobbies do you have" / "what kind of
activities do you like".

~~~
nine_k
Have you tried having small kids _and_ managing to get some free time for
hobbies? It's more challenging than it seems, and usually takes 6-7 years to
resolve itself.

~~~
jasonlotito
Yes. Both with autism. It is challenging, but not impossible. You have to do
more than just a hobby. You have to manage time, energy, and money.

~~~
nine_k
Wow. Our younger is only slightly autistic, and the elder has already grown
up. Two simultaneously would be challenging indeed!

~~~
jasonlotito
It is. We have to make sure each of us still goes out. Both together when we
can arrange a baby sitter after they are put to bed, and alone when we have an
event or something we want to go to. It's tiring. They are wonderful children
though. Incredibly happy and affectionate.

------
rza
"Dogshit developers get paid 50k to start. Good ones are over 100k. You just
have to have actual skills."

Because how much someone makes determines if they're dogshit or not.

~~~
wonnage
I think you have your cause and effect backwards. Being paid 50k doesn't make
you a bad developer. But bad developers tend to get paid less. At least, one
would hope...

~~~
nawitus
Developer pay seems to be mostly based on "years worked", not on merit.

~~~
nbouscal
That depends heavily on who the developer in question works for.

------
coldcode
[http://thecodist.com/article/interviews_can_be_a_terrible_wa...](http://thecodist.com/article/interviews_can_be_a_terrible_way_to_identify_good_programmers)

------
_greim_
> Don't look for talent

Isn't talent the ability to do things well? Or maybe I lack a nuanced
definition of "talent". Or maybe the headline is trying to be sensational.

~~~
sliverstorm
You can boil the point of the article down to this line:

 _no one is good at identifying talent ahead of time_

It isn't that you don't _want_ talent, or that talent isn't exactly what you
want all of your employees to have, but it is difficult to identify. So, the
theory in the article seems to go, instead of trying to measure talent, look
for other things in your workers- things that have a non-causal relationship
to talent.

I swear there is a word for this in statistics- factors which do not have a
clear causal relationship, yet still tend to be found together...

~~~
mark-r
Maybe there's a causal relationship but it's just not obvious. See for example
[http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/08/quantity-always-
tru...](http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/08/quantity-always-trumps-
quality.html)

~~~
sliverstorm
Sure, but point being instead of trying to measure talent itself, you try to
measure indirectly.

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mililani
This is the kind of post I wish there was a downvote for on HN.

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TheMagicHorsey
I honestly don't know why this blog post is so highly rated on HN. He is just
recapping what other people have been saying in news articles and blog posts.

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bjhoops1
I read this whole post before realizing it was written by that prick, Tucker
Max. I wish I could unread it.

~~~
obstacle1
I don't like X, therefore I won't consider X's arguments.

That strategy seems like a great way to never learn anything except whatever
confirms your own biases.

~~~
bjhoops1
I didn't say he wasn't right about this. Just regret that I provided traffic
to his site.

~~~
goostavos
That still makes no sense.

~~~
abawany
I agree, re. makes no sense; the man wrote a fine article. I have read one of
Tucker Max's books and I am not proud to admit it. But this was one heck of a
well-written article.

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cyplo
shameless autopromotion, a.k.a. my viewpoint:
[http://blog.cyplo.net/2011/07/24/how-to-hire-
people/](http://blog.cyplo.net/2011/07/24/how-to-hire-people/)

~~~
SkyMarshal
Pro-tip: don't just link your blog post, give us an executive summary. If you
won't make the effort to do at least that, I wouldn't expect many to make the
effort to click your link.

~~~
cyplo
thanks :) to you point: I think the recruitment process should be less
automated and more humane. One should just sit and try to work with another
person, as they would be their work partner.

~~~
SkyMarshal
Agreed, have heard good reports of companies contracting prospectives for a
day or more to actually work on something on the company's todo list, and
doing it with pair programming.

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jleyank
Joel said this well a while back: Smart and gets things done.

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escaped_hn
"Creative". No.

"Creative and willing to invest financially". Yes.

