
The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW - clouddrover
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-24/the-electric-car-atop-europe-s-sales-charts-isn-t-a-tesla-or-vw
======
neuronic
Anecdote time:

I am driving a Zoe multiple times a week and thoroughly enjoy it.

Is it premium class car and will take me 600km? No, but that's not why I am
driving Zoes. I drive them because it's short city commutes 99% of the time.
Rarely more than 10-15km, usually transporting something or bypassing public
transport in busy times/Corona/if car is just quicker.

I use them via Sixt Share, a car-sharing service. Always find parking within a
few minutes with the privilege of getting the e-parking spots and the small
size.

Zoe is perfect for European city dwelling and short commutes. Not as expensive
as BMW i3 or VW e-Golf. Same type of car as the e-Up! which I haven't tried
yet.

~~~
Markoff
wouldn't electric bike/scooter without renting make more sense for you? unless
you use it to do big grocery, though this could be resolved by ordering
grocery online

I'm living in the Prague without car, only missing car when doing the grocery,
but there is no point to buy car just to do big grocery once a week, might as
well rent a car or take taxi or order grocery online, if I would be that lazy.

~~~
r00fus
The problem with bikes in big cities is parking and theft.

Stealing an auto is a felony while a bike theft doesn’t even get marginal
attention form law enforcement.

Sorry to say but we’ll need some large policy shifts to support ebikes despite
how perfect they’d be.

~~~
Markoff
you must live in odd country, here in Czechia is felony stealing of subject
with "more than insignificant value" (read more than 200EUR although last year
they wanted to raise it to 400EUR, not sure if they succeeded) regardless what
is the subject, so while stealing old used car valued at 199EUR is misdemeanor
(contravention), stealing bike worth 300EUR is crime

I don't think they would really treat cars differently, if they are in same
value as some bike worth 10000 EUR, the thing is car is much bigger so it's
more difficult to hide it and easier to notice/discover than bike and
statistically most of the used bikes are worth few euros, so it would be
really waste of resources, of course it's different now with ebikes, but it is
same as motorbikes, much easier to hide and difficult to discover

~~~
wink
Can't comment on OP's country, but here in Germany while technically
different, in practice it's the same

Car gets stolen: often the case is solved, license plates help, etc.pp

Bike gets stolen: Police take the report, often blame you it's your own fault
that you didn't properly lock it (happened to me twice), usually doesn't get
solved even if you have the number. It's worth the hassle to report it but the
chnace of getting it back are close to zero.

~~~
Markoff
> Car gets stolen: often the case is solved, license plates help, etc.pp

Are you sure stolen car is "often" found? Here in Czechia they find like 20%
stolen cars, bikes will be worse but not that much worse since 20 is already
quite close to 0 anyway.

~~~
wink
Often compared to bikes. Also I have heard of it, so non-zero. ;) No, I don't
have numbers. My point was strictly that with a stolen bike you're out of
luck. Also because insurance is mandatory for cars, people usually take this
addon that will have them pay for your stolen car. For bikes again it's
complicated...

------
maeln
It's honestly not a surprise. The European market favor smaller car way more
than the American one. You just have to see the sheer number of 206, Twingo &
Clio on the road.

I still see some Tesla, but usually it is a status symbol, people who just
want an electric car usually go for the Nissan Leaf or the Renault Zoe.

~~~
brnt
This. Commute cars are Aygos and Ups, not two ton sedans. The (original) Tesla
is one of the largest vehicles you'll see around here, only beaten by the
hughest SUVs. And the commute market is where people buy electric, so that
doesn't match at all. Anecdatally the only people I know with Teslas are rich
enough they have it as one of their cars, as an extra to see what it is all
about. Very few buy it instead of their commute box.

Here is NL.

~~~
guerby
In the whole 2019 (with a crazy december) Tesla Model 3 was the first car by
number of sale (electric or not)

[https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-
model-3-shatters-...](https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-
model-3-shatters-all-records-in-historic-month-year-in-the-netherlands/)

1 Tesla Model 3 29,922

2 VW Polo 12,920

3 Ford Focus 10,478

4 VW Golf 9,263

Number 2 to 4 are small cars.

But Tesla sale number per country just mean Tesla decided to allocate more
cars to a specific country, as long as it is production constrained not much
information about customer preferences from sales numbers.

~~~
koenvdb
Focus and Golf are both similar sizes, I wouldn't say the VW Golf is a small
car. (Nor would I say that about the new Polo, it's actually quite big)

~~~
jacquesm
The new Polo is as large as the Golf used to be and the new Golf, especially
the station is as large as the early model Passats. This is mostly an arms
race, not so much on size as on crash safety, to maintain those precious stars
car models creep up in their outside dimensions. Interiors are fairly static.

------
bryanlarsen
Tesla Europe numbers are wildly variable. Tesla tends to build their European
cars at the beginnning of the quarter so that they can be shipped across the
ocean and into customer hands before the end of the quarter. The cars at the
end of the quarter are shipped to Americans and the cars built in the last
week are shipped to Californians.

So because of the COVID shutdown, that means that the only month that Tesla
made cars for Europe this year was January. (And July, but those cars haven't
been counted yet).

And, as mentioned the widely anticipated ID3 from VW isn't being delivered
until September.

So Europeans chose to buy a Zoe now rather than wait for a Tesla or an ID3.
And the Zoe is a nice car, so why wait?

~~~
Krasnol
I don't think there will be many who decided to buy a Zoe because a Tesla
wasn't available. It's the price.

I doubt there is much overlap with the ID3 too. The cheapest model will cost
you two Zoes.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
VW were originally saying the ID.3 was going to be priced similarly to a Golf
diesel. I wonder what changed.

~~~
bryanlarsen
Did it change? That was for the base model which they won't be selling until
next year, and including the German government incentive.
[https://insideevs.com/news/406682/vw-id3-cost-compared-
with-...](https://insideevs.com/news/406682/vw-id3-cost-compared-with-ice/)

~~~
Krasnol
It seems live that government incentive hit really good because the price I
read beginning this year was around 40k€ in Germany while you get the Zoe for
21k (without incentive): [https://www.renault.de/elektrofahrzeuge/zoe/preise-
versionen...](https://www.renault.de/elektrofahrzeuge/zoe/preise-
versionen.html)

------
phtrivier
The Zoe is, sadly, at the moment, the perfect anti-yellow-jacket car: no
matter how much rebates the government will give you, you need to put so much
cash on the table that it's completely unaffordable to those who might benefit
from it the most (daily short-medium commutes between peripheral towns.)

Instead, it's bought by already-affluent upper middle-class, who then get to
feel better about their carbon footprint, while also saving on gas ! (Which,
don't get me wrong, is great !)

As the saying goes, "it takes a lot of money to be poor."

The situation will, hopefully, get better, when there is a second-hand market
for EV, or much cheaper vehicles...

~~~
dhosek
Here in the US, used Nissan Leafs run around $10K. We don't have much call for
another car right now (our main car is a plug-in hybrid Chrysler minivan), but
if we did, this would be a likely candidate.

~~~
dencodev
I see endless Leafs for sale (the older original ones) for only $5k. Granted
their batteries are pretty degraded and I'm sure only gets 60 miles of range
when blasting AC or heater.

~~~
bfieidhbrjr
Actually a lot less, more like 30 miles. Worse if it's cold, hot or uphill.
I've owned a couple of leafs.

The problem is kind of interesting - a smaller battery in and of itself is
painful but there's a deeper problem. YOu have to spread the charge cycle over
the whole battery and you have to do more charge cycles. So a Tesla can
discharge different cells each day, and any individual cell gets used less
frequently. With the leaf, you're using every cell, every day. So it's
compounding and much worse than people realize, forgetting all the other
problems like no thermal control on the pack.

I actually loved my leafs (leaves?) but they couldn't even get to the city and
back very quickly (I mean after 6 months the battery loses a bar). The newer
ones are betterish.

~~~
dencodev
At 30 miles range I think I'd rather just take my ebike instead, which gets 24
miles at 30MPH with zero pedaling if I bring an extra battery.

~~~
dhosek
30 miles is what we get on a charge with our plugin hybrid minivan before it
switches to gas. The last time we bought gas was 28 Feb. It tends to prefer
gas in the winter which is a big part of why we bought gas then (looking back
over the records, we normally buy a tank of gas once a month in the winter and
maybe one more sometime in the summer unless we take a road trip).

~~~
dencodev
I don't think I'd ever get a plug in hybrid - most of the appeal to electric
cars for me in the lack of maintenance and lack of things to break. Adding
batteries to a gas car just seems like it's doubling the amount that can go
wrong and makes the repairs much more expensive.

~~~
nradov
Toyota plug-in hybrid cars are actually more reliable than comparable Tesla
electric cars, despite the greater mechanical complexity.

[https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla-Model-3-vs-Toyota-Prius-
Prim...](https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla-Model-3-vs-Toyota-Prius-Prime-
reliability-comparison,1376-1393)

~~~
dencodev
All I see here are two percentages and a happy face and a sad face. It doesn't
really have anything compelling for me to see. And if I'm more likely to need
to get a model 3 serviced for something like a panel gap, I'd gladly take that
over the risk of total ICE failure on a Toyota. The website says nothing about
the severity of the problems, and it's really just the severe ones I care
about.

~~~
dhosek
The plug-in hybrid is the non-plug-in hybrid with a bigger battery and an
external charger. Before Toyota released their first plug-in model, this was a
popular DIY hack. We had our non-plug-in Prius for ten years without a single
problem before we sold it and bought the Pacifica. You're imagining an issue
that doesn't exist. It's not some exotic technology, it's something that's
been on the road for over two decades in its modern incarnation and has roots
that extend back to the 19th century.

~~~
dencodev
ICEs have a track record of decades of catastrophic failures due to major
component failure. Water pumps, timing belts, gasket leaks, fuel
contamination, the list goes on. I've only ever seen a few catastrophic Tesla
failures and only because literally every single time it happens it makes the
news. Your single data point doesn't mean a whole lot. I realize this comes
across as abrasive but I don't meant for it to. Just being conversational

------
raxxorrax
That is probably because of the price, it is the cheapest of them all. I know
many people that bought EVs already and the one thing they have in common is
vast disposable income or they got it as a company car.

I have a car which I seldom use because I am located in a city and only use it
to visit family or some groceries. Did cost 2000€ and has a life expectancy of
around 5-8 years. It can go from A to B. I have no parking spot so I would
never buy a new car. Wouldn't take a month to get bumps in it.

EVs need to do good on used car markets, otherwise they will remain a
curiosity for the nearer future. But of course the cost for the battery life
cycle could pose a significant problem. Renault offers battery leasing, which
means people don't need to be afraid of it failing after a few years or very
cold weather.

For a Zoe, I would still have to pay 30,000€. Convince me to spend 28,000€
more on a car. It isn't a status symbol for me, times have changed, I need to
go from A to B.

~~~
oblio
Whichever company is the first to make a family EV with a +500km range for
less than $20k will sell tens of millions of cars.

~~~
cheerlessbog
In the US most electric cars are charged on the driveway or in the garage.
Most Europeans don't have these.

I'm generalizing of course, but it's a significant difference. Most folks I
know would have to run a cable across the sidewalk. Electric is only going to
work if all the supermarkets and pubs etc etc have fast chargers. Or maybe
they put them into lamp posts.

~~~
PeterisP
Running electricity cables to streetside parking spaces and parking lots near
apartment buildings is now considered key infrastructure that the EU
governments are rolling out. It's slow at the moment, but we'll get there.

~~~
cheerlessbog
The scale is daunting...running new cables for probably more than half the
households in the EU. Comparable to the effort to get fiber to the home.

~~~
xyzzyz
In Europe at least regular outlet charging should be more viable than in the
US. A typical installation is 230V with 16A breaker, which will charge a car
twice as fast as typical 120V/15A installation. Thus, there is less pressing
need to do installation upgrades for electric cars in Europe, running a long
cord will be good enough most of the time.

~~~
detaro
1 phase 16A is still not really good - only ~3.6 kW at best. But 230V still
makes the cabling easier to handle and 3-phase power is common in residential
buildings (at least in parts of Europe), so 11 kW (3x16A) or 22 kW (3x32A) are
usual sizes for electric car chargers at homes.

Bigger restriction on that is how many people don't live in homes where they
can just install a charger, but rather in apartments with either no charging
or no dedicated parking at all.

~~~
xyzzyz
Right, electric cars are too inconvenient for most apartment dwellers, but
contrary to a popular impression, there are lots of Europeans who live in
single family houses. Additionally, even residents of rural European areas are
driving much less on average than rural Americans, simply because what counts
for rural in most of Europe is already denser than rural America, especially
in the west portion of it.

I think the biggest reason for relatively slow adoption of electric cars in
Europe is simply that most European are significantly poorer than most
Americans, while also having to pay high taxes and fees. Median household
income in Mississippi is almost 50% higher than median household income in
France, for example, and this is compounded by higher taxes in France.

~~~
cheerlessbog
Many live in single family homes, yes, but in the UK at least they very often
have shared street parking across a pavement (a sidewalk). That is why I was
thinking lampposts.

------
codeulike
The new 52kwh Zoe is pretty good, £25k for 200+ mile range.

Probably the cheapest 200+ mile EV in Europe right now.

The Tesla Model 3 is comparatively expensive due to importing. Cheapest Model
3 on the website is £40k. We're not even getting the Model Y until they build
the german factory.

~~~
dalys
And that Tesla Model 3 price is not even so bad. The cheapest Model 3
(Standard Range Plus) here in Sweden is £50k/€55k/$65k.

The base Zoe, with the 52kWh battery, is £30k/€33/$39k.

I recently bought my first car and would've loved to go electric, but nothing
with decent battery size and boot size in my budget yet. I got a Passat GTE
Sportswagon for now. All trips inside Stockholm I can drive on pure electric
so I'm still quite happy.

------
pi-rat
Very interesting, the Zoe is all the way back on 7th place here in Norway
(more than 50% of all new cars here are electric), I wonder why there's a big
difference compared with "mainland Europe"..

Of all time: Leaf, Golf, i3, model S, Soul, Model 3, Zoe..

In 2020: E-tron, Golf, Leaf, Kona, Model 3, Soul, Zoe.

Could be because Zoe is a picky charger. It's made to AC charge on TN power
nets, and Norway has quite a bit of IT power nets, some places you'll need a
heavy transformer (size of a bucket) to charge it.

[https://elbilstatistikk.no](https://elbilstatistikk.no)

~~~
Plasmoid2000ad
I wonder is it how the Zoe is viewed.

In most of Europe, I think it's viewed as the only Electric car that's
competitive on price against Internal Combusion cars. For a bit more, an eco
conscious person can get city car with good range.

In Norway, where as I understand all IC cars now are luxury cars due the
taxation, the Zoe is just one of many EVs to choose from. If it was me, I'd
choose a Kona or a e-Niro over a Zoe, but I cant afford them (If they were
even ever in stock). At Kona e-Niro prices... in my country... I'd choose a
sporty semi-luxury car... Maybe Zoe is just in that Niche in countries that
aren't (yet) heavily taxing IC cars.

But it's probably about the cold weather performance. Other cars charge
faster, and that's important (even psychologically) in Winter. Other cars are
also more efficient per km, so you're getting hammered by both in Winter - A
car that uses a lot of kw/h per km in good weather does even worse in
snow/slush and wind, and then leave you at the charger for longer!

The orignally Zoe and ZE40 models weren't great either, I think they lacked
heat pumps too (even worse cold weather performance!), but while I'm only
seeing Renault heavily push the Zoe to regular folks now, maybe the Zoe brand
name has already been tarnished in Norway?

~~~
pi-rat
You could be right about that. Zoe is just one of many options. If you need
the range you probably want a larger car as well (chargers are everywhere
here, short range car for commutes isn’t a problem.) Most other long range
cars also have heat pumps and battery heater/coolers.

I’ve the Kona EV myself actually, great car. And to illustrate the ICE/EV
price difference here, top specced it was slightly cheaper than a base model
ICE Golf.

------
TLightful
Not surprised - the Zoe is just a nice little everyday car ... not trying to
be too much, just get the basics right of what a nomal driver needs.

I'm in the market for an EV next year and, if the competitors haven't stepped
up their game, I'll get one.

No way will I buy a Tesla. Extremely bored of their brand and their online
cult - very excited for alternatives. You can take your 0-60 and ... :)

~~~
rcMgD2BwE72F
Would the Zoe be your only car? Do you plan to do cross-country trips? If not,
what would you consider other than a Tesla for long range trips (ignoring
branding/marketing for a second)?

~~~
pi-rat
Either go for a fast charging car, fastest Tesla moves 1000 km in 10h (incl
charging), newest E-tron manages the same in 10h20m (Teslabjørn’s tests).

Or go for something super efficient, like the Kias (Kona/Ioniq). Kona does 560
km on a single charge (64 kWh) in real life tests here in Norway.

~~~
caf
Kona and Ioniq are Hyundai models.

~~~
pi-rat
Haha, thanks! I was going to write the "Koreans" or "Kia/Hyundai" but
apparently failed :)

------
mytailorisrich
In the UK a Renault Zoe is about 30% cheaper than a Tesla Model 3 and is
smaller and more urban. I.e. more in line with most cars you see everywhere in
Europe.

It is also possible to lease the battery instead of buying it along with the
car, which seems to be a popular option (although it seems they've removed the
option, apparently).

~~~
rcMgD2BwE72F
A Zoe is a nice city car that sells well but only as a second car. It does not
compete with the Model 3 which does replace ICE vehicles as a main car. You
simply wouldn't do a cross-country trip in a Zoe -- say, from Belgium to the
French Riviera -- so most families would need another vehicle (ICE, PHEV or
long-range & fast charging Tesla).

They just don't share the same market. EV compete with ICEs alternative more
than they compete with each others.

~~~
rsynnott
> You simply wouldn't do a cross-country trip in a Zoe -- say, from Belgium to
> the French Riviera

What percentage of people actually do that at all regularly? I would have
thought a lot of people would fly or take the train for that.

~~~
mytailorisrich
From what we see on European roads it's quite common for people in Belgium and
the Netherlands to drive to Southern Europe for the summer holidays.

Usually these are big wagon cars, though because they need to fit the family
and luggage in there. So I think that people will stick to ICE until there are
family-sized EV with the range and the price range. Teslas are not really an
option at the moment, IMO.

~~~
rsynnott
I don't doubt that _some_ people do it, but I would seriously doubt that
everyone, or anything approaching everyone, does it. This would imply a much
smaller market for small cars than actually exists.

So, yeah, the Zoe wouldn't be suitable for those people, but it might be
suitable for people who buy small cars anyway (which is most of the market,
AFAIK).

~~~
mytailorisrich
Obviously a lot of people take the train or fly. I'm just saying that a lot of
people drive, as well. I'm not sure EVs are ready for this sort of trip in any
case.

------
bowlingx
I ordered one :D. I love the size of the car, it's small enough to navigate in
a town and AC charging speed is high (22 kw, no one else, besides a SMART
offers this in this price range). I can't charge at home (as I live in an
appartment in the city) and I don't want to wait 6 hours for a full charge.
Fast chargers ( >= 50kw) inside towns in Germany are (still) rare and there
are more 22kw chargers available around me, also free ones at supermarkets. I
occasionally drive more then 500 km, but maybe 3 times per year, and then I
would propably take the train anyway.

------
guerby
Yes the new Zoe is a good EV, can do some long distance but is limited by its
50 kW DC charger. Peugeot e-208 has 100 kW so a bit better for the same price
range.

Zoe is also a nice proof of battery price drop, Renault kept the price
constant but battery capacity went from 22 kWh to 52 kWh

[https://www.electrive.com/2019/07/01/new-battery-old-
price-u...](https://www.electrive.com/2019/07/01/new-battery-old-price-
updated-renault-zoe-in-germany/)

------
DubiousPusher
IMO the real sleeper of the EV race has been Kia. They've been serving up
reasonably priced, practical EVs with decent ranges for years now to very
little fanfare.

------
bengale
My wife has one of these and she absolutely loves it. I've only driven it a
few times but seems like a great car. Price is really good too.

------
squarefoot
They're building some good experience in the field. Renault made quite a
revolution years ago when they introduced the Twizy, which to me was the
perfect small car for commuting. Unfortunately it was ahead of its time,
mainly due to the high costs of the car itself and the batteries, sold either
as a product or as a service, so despite its minimalist appearance it was out
of reach for normal office workers who would also need a bigger traditional
car for their families. As a 100% motorcycle rider, if I had to buy a car
today, I would choose the smallest possible one anyway; over here in the EU
most modern cities are built on, or around, historical ancient ones where
roads were made just for horses and carriages, and when a road is surrounded
by buildings of historical importance, which is almost always the case in city
centers, no way they're demolished to make a bigger road, so small cars are a
must.

------
Markoff
I would expect Toyota or Nissan to be in the top spot, though not sure if they
count hybrids or only fully electric cars.

As fore Renault, are we sure these numbers are not driven be some big
purchases of some (French) car rental companies for their fleets? It would
make perfect sense especially in France.

I'd really like to see which countries contributed to this success of Renault
and in what countries it holds the top place.

EDIT: at least in Germany it's tight victory for electric Golf over Zoe - 7320
vs 7066 cars sold in first half 2020, third place far behind Tesla Model 3
with 4367 cars, in UK is winning Tesla, in France Zoe [https://www.best-
selling-cars.com/germany/latest-germany-bes...](https://www.best-selling-
cars.com/germany/latest-germany-best-selling-electric-car-brands-and-models/)

------
xiphias2
Model 3 is great in the US, but here people prefer BMWs because of more
service locations and much better service (we can get new parts easily from
Germany, don’t need to wait for parts from the U.S.), and pay extra costs from
importing from outside E.U.

The Berlin factory will help with all of these problems.

~~~
mytailorisrich
From what I hear, for the same price range BMWs, Mercedes, etc. are also much
better quality than Teslas.

~~~
Mvandenbergh
In terms of quality of finish and materials, yes. But those are status
differentiators rather than functional differences and the Tesla brand name
has a status all of its own so they appeal to people with slightly different
preferences around status signalling.

~~~
mytailorisrich
Quality is definitely not a status differentiator. The brand is. Usually
higher price goes hand in hand with better quality, because that's what is
expected of a more expensive car for quite obvious reasons.

~~~
Mvandenbergh
If the quality is functional, then it's not a status differentiator. If it's
just about appearance, then it is. The interior materials in a BMW of a
similar price are more expensive, more "premium", and the tolerances in the
way the interior is assembled are tighter but none of those things affect how
the car functions.

------
markosaric
This is a great car! We have the original version (same car but smaller
battery) and it still runs so good after 4 years or so. Love driving it. It's
a perfect car for day to day needs around the city/shopping/commute but I also
love going on longer trips of 200+ KM.

Always a new discovery of different places thanks to the need to charge. Runs
about 150 KM on a single charge on eco mode so when we go on a longer trip we
find a nice and interesting place to have a break and explore while it
charges.

------
woodandsteel
The Zoe has a short range in part because when it was first designed batteries
were relatively low in power density and very high in prices. When batteries
improved on both of these, the range was upgraded.

Battery density and prices are going to continue to improve, and so we can
expect the Zoe will be upgraded in the future. And the battery progress means
that larger and longer-range cars will become affordable to a broader public
in Europe and elsewhere.

------
random123876
Citroën AMI might be a killer electric city car. It comes at 6k euros with
45km/h and 70km range.

[https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/28/21157346/citroen-ami-
elec...](https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/28/21157346/citroen-ami-electric-car-
light-quadricycle-two-seater-rental-buy-online)

------
dzhiurgis
Let's hope Tesla builds a cyberbug. Stainless to last forever, tiny and cheap
as chips.

------
mrweasel
Sadly the Zoe is just a little to small. It may be an attempt to keep the
weight down, but the interior of the Zoe is just a little shorter than that of
the Clio, meaning that I can't physically fit my legs behind the wheel.

------
DrinkWater
I know about a dealership that sold 50 Zoes in a day last month. And they are
located in a small city in Germany, almost rural. I can only imagine how much
they are selling in bigger cities.

------
nickik
Tesla will only really start competing in Europe once their factory is up and
running. It messes with their financials to have lots of vehicles being
transported. That should give them some high volume but the cars are still not
perfect for the European market, but at least they should make a good margin.

It will probebly be 2 more years before they have a 'small' car for Europe and
China in production. Only then they will really compete with the shorter range
city cars.

~~~
_ph_
Even worse, they have to pay 12% taxes on any imported Tesla (10% import duty
+ 20% VAT on the duty)

------
noja
and it's not a Leaf!

~~~
izacus
It's actually surprisingly hard to buy a leaf here - Nissan isn't a popular
brand. Renaults are everywhere though - Clio is one of the most popular cars
outside DACH region and Zoe being is its electric counterpart.

~~~
_Microft
DACH is Germany (D), Austria (A), Switzerland (CH) by the way.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_distribution_of_G...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_distribution_of_German_speakers#DACH_countries)

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kozak
Zoe is not a car where you would want to carry rear-seat passengers very
often. I'd compare it more with a Fiat 500e that ID.3 or the Leaf.

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namdnay
Maybe not adult passengers every day, but it's more or less the same as the
previous generation of Clio inside, which is the standard workhorse for
damilies of 2 adults + 2 kids across europe

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jeffrallen
2 kids and one in a car seat fit in the back of mine.

