
Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk - hhs
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/carolineodonovan/coronavirus-schools-teachers-fear-for-their-lives
======
oramit
What we currently have going on right now is a complete collapse in
confidence. So many commenters are debating the death rate, case counts,
hospitalizations, etc, which is all besides the point.

Heres the thing: even if you believe people are being irrationally afraid,
telling people they are stupid and should just suck it up isn't going to get
people to cooperate. Do you want to be smugly right, or do you want things to
actually get better? People are scared, that's just a fact, and they need to
feel confident that action is being taken in their best interest. Telling
people that only 1% of them will die so it's all okay is telling people you
don't care about them - they notice, they're not dumb.

We all know that this is an exceptional event and that there will be missteps.
People will forgive mistakes and setbacks and take on more risk if they are
confident that there is a plan - but so far there isn't one. We're almost six
months into this and the messaging is still chaos. The lack of a national
strategy is what is causing this pandemic to worsen. The rot really does start
at the top.

The United States is currently choosing the worst possible combination of
options. We locked down - causing enormous financial damage, but we didn't
follow through with the lockdown nationally to actually stomp the virus. So we
get to have the deaths and have the financial damage as well. Yay us!

~~~
mtgp1000
>Telling people that only 1% of them will die so it's all okay is telling
people you don't care about them - they notice, they're not dumb.

No no no no no. It's high time we stop treating everything as black and white
in this country. It's not just callously disregarding the dead - it's about
determining whether the literal and figurative loss of life caused by a
lockdown is worth the loss of life caused by the virus. And the signal/noise
ratio right now is absolutely tiny, especially considering how much damage the
media has done by unambiguously turning this into an opportunity to bash
Trump. Regardless of how you feel about the presidency, if you compare per
capital rates ours were actually on par with most other first world nations
until the recent protests (both left and right) began; and while I do believe
it is shameful that we were caught with our pants down, scrambling to gather
supplies nearly 3 months late, I'll remind you that _so was everyone else_.

Let's also not forget that a number of other countries like Sweden didn't lock
down at all and are doing fine. We also shouldn't be applying the same
policies to urban and rural areas.

You know what would really answer this question to me? What percent of nurses
and doctors in COVID wards have gotten sick? And what is their CFR? That's
pretty much worst case exposure and seeing as I haven't heard of doctors dying
in droves, I'm inclined to start believing that people do have and/or develop
immunity and the fatality/complication rate really is extremely low, for
whatever reason. But I need data to be sure.

~~~
thomasahle
> Let's also not forget that a number of other countries like Sweden didn't
> lock down at all and are doing fine.

Sweden did a voluntary lock down, which was in practice pretty comprehensive.
Even then they still had a death rate per capita many times higher than its
neighbours, and it was economically hit just as hard.

Perhaps it was worth a try, but it didn't pan out. Their government even
formed a commission to figure out why it went so bad.

~~~
hn_check
This is the critical aspect of the Sweden example: the people of Sweden are
rational and everything isn't hyper politicized. Even though they tried a
different approach, many still took reasonable precautions. There still were
significant restrictions on operations like bars and restaurants.

Sweden was never like the "COVID denier" communities in the United States.

And still its results are relatively terrible compared to its neighbours and
peers.

------
eaandkw
I have pretty much given up on everybody at this point. I have already pulled
my kid from school and will not send them back. I am in a single income family
and I am now working from home.

All actions and purchases at this point are to help us to become more
independant from the system. Society and government at large has shown itself
to be unreliable and undependable. I am also making longer term plans to move
out of my current state.

So good luck everyone with the education system.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
I think one of the things that has been so disheartening to me about the
pandemic is that it has shown how we just can't really _do_ anything anymore
in the US.

I mean, just look at PPE. I understand being a little flat footed when the
pandemic first started, but it's been nearly 6 months now. I would have
expected mass mobilization to pump out N95 masks, gloves, gowns, face shields,
etc. by the millions. I mean, look how many heavy military vehicles the US
managed to build during WWII, and then consider we can't even build _masks_ of
sufficient quantity.

And this just follows an ever growing set of problems that the US has just
oddly accepted without the political will to do anything, things like our
totally f'd healthcare system, mass shootings, climate change, etc.

I disagree, though, with the sibling comment that says "Don't give up! Don't
withdraw!" It's not like there aren't other functioning societies in the world
that are way less broken than the US. Staying behind in some mythical "fight"
is just misplaced patriotism IMO. There are other countries that live the
_ideals_ that I used to associate with America (real freedom, upward mobility,
democracy, rule of law, etc.) much better than the US does these days.

~~~
not2b
All of this is a consequence of ideologies that have become popular in the US
both in politics and in business. Having government direct a mobilization is
not acceptable. A mandate that people wear masks is not acceptable. Having
manufacturing capacity to make low-value products in large numbers in the US
is bad business when poorer countries can do it for less. Having spare
inventory is bad, because just-in-time manufacturing is more efficient.
Accepting a reasonable profit at a time of crisis is considered stupid when a
business can make windfall profits by pitting states against each other or
signing a sweetheart deal in exchange for a no-bid contract. We're looking a
lot like Russia under Yeltsin when the place was collapsing and people were
stealing everything that wasn't nailed down.

Now, all of this could be turned around quickly with good leadership that
could rally the country behind a cause, but we chose someone who is committed
to division, who's willing to undermine the efforts of those who work for him,
who, even at this time of crisis thinks that nothing other than personal
loyalty to him and that he should never make a mistake.

~~~
RestlessMind
> Having government direct a mobilization is not acceptable.

Then you would expect divergent performance in the D-controlled states (eg.
California) vs the R-controlled states (eg. Texas), no? So far, I see all
types of states having similar outcomes.

> ... good leadership ... but we chose someone who is committed to division,
> ...

I'm no fan of our current leader, but let's be honest Obama failed to properly
launch a simple _website_ for his signature initiative[1]. The problem is much
deeper.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HealthCare.gov#Issues_during_l...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HealthCare.gov#Issues_during_launch)

~~~
GeneralMayhem
Performance is in fact divergent by party; see e.g.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/hso3sf/oc_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/hso3sf/oc_blue_counties_in_red_states_are_getting_hit/).
Blue counties are doing worse than red in both state cohorts due to population
density, but counties of either party are doing worse in R states. Blue states
were worse early on, mostly due to New York City being quickly overwhelmed,
but now that's not the case, because D governors (e.g., Newsom) are generally
leading responsibly, and R governors (e.g. Kemp) are... not.

>Obama failed to properly launch a simple website for his signature initiative

Healthcare.gov was a shitshow, but referring to it here is a very silly false
equivalency. It was not time-sensitive in the same way that COVID-19 response
is. It involved getting the federal government to exercise new competencies
that it hadn't done at scale before; responding to national crises is kind of
the number one job of the federal government, and PPE acquisition,
distribution, and even manufacturing are not new. It failed for reasons having
to do with mismanagement of timelines, not outright fraud; COVID PPE shipments
have been hijacked and sold off to the president's cronies.

But sure, both sides technically did something wrong, so there's no difference
between them.

~~~
jdminhbg
> Blue states were worse early on, mostly due to New York City being quickly
> overwhelmed, but now that's not the case, because D governors (e.g., Newsom)
> are generally leading responsibly, and R governors (e.g. Kemp) are... not.

The relevant metric is not "amount of time doing relatively better or worse."
You can get all over with quickly like NY did, but they ended up with 8x the
deaths of FL. NJ has 3x FL's. AFAICT, "leading responsibly" here means simply
having (D) after their names, as these governors' policies were
catastrophically bad.

------
newspheasant
My wife is a teacher and starting school (in person) in a week and a half.
There’s no answers to questions like:

\- Do they have the budget for counseling when students and teachers pass
away? \- When a teacher gets sick, what substitute teacher is going to want to
teach an exposed class (also, they’ll be making sub plans with covid?)? \-
When they’re sick are will they be getting additional sick leave? \- Do they
get worker’s compensation if they get sick, since they were knowingly sent
into a dangerous environment?

~~~
politelemon
> Do they have the budget for counseling when students and teachers pass away?

It pains me to admit that this didn't even occur to me as part of the topic of
teachers being sent back. The human aspects of students-teacher relationships.
I feel I've been desensitized to this after exposing myself to a constant
stream of news, and now I'm thinking further about what other aspects lie
behind other headlines. Thank you for sharing this

~~~
usaar333
It's a human aspect, but to be blunt, it's not a significant consideration as
long as you aren't opening schools in an area with high community transfer
(e.g. Houston today). IF you additionally filter out high risk-group teaches
(known pre-existing health conditions, older than 65, etc.) excess death risk
is quite low. (e.g. in the Bay Area, dying in a car crash remains far more
likely (~10x) if you meet the criteria earlier noted)

(Children actually have had negative excess death rates this year:
[https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-mortality-over-
time-o...](https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-mortality-over-time-ons-
update-2nd-june/) \--- reduction in travel, etc. has more than offset covid)

~~~
lubujackson
At least 30 teachers have died of COVID in NYC alone. That seems significant
for a viral outbreak that is nowhere near containment or exhaustion, and if I
was a teacher over 40 I would have serious reservations knowing it is
extremely likely I will almost certainly catch the virus eventually.

But you can say the same for tons of occupations - flight attendants,
cashiers, barbers. People will either be ignorant/dismissive of the risk or
forced to take risk to feed themselves. I think the real change will have to
be less preciousness/protectiveness of the value of human life, sadly.

~~~
usaar333
> and if I was a teacher over 40 I would have serious reservations knowing it
> is extremely likely I will almost certainly catch the virus eventually.

I'm not proposing schools open in an NYC/Houston/Miami type situation. But in
lower infection area (e.g. the Bay Area), where about 0.1% of the population
is infected weekly, you are not "almost certainly" going to get the virus.

Obviously, school opening should be gated by community transfer level.
California seems to be using a 2 week target of < 100 confirmed per 100k
people (with low test positivity), which seems reasonable to me.

~~~
BadCookie
> (e.g. the Bay Area), about 0.1% of the population is infected weekly

I don't know if your 0.1% number is accurate, but let's assume that it is. If
somehow cases remain completely level for the rest of the school year (which
is far from a given, but for the sake of argument ...) over the course of 40
weeks, a randomly-chosen person has roughly a 40 * 0.1% = 4% chance of getting
infected. But that is a randomly-chosen person, whereas it's not hard to
imagine that a teacher exposed for hours daily to multiple young kids who
aren't good at keeping their germs to themselves is (ballpark) maybe 6x as
likely to get infected as a random person [1]. So then we arrive at an
estimate of perhaps 24% odds of a teacher getting infected during the
2020-2021 school year using my assumptions (which you are free to disagree
with).

Is 24% "almost certain"? No, but by highlighting the tiny 0.1% number, I think
you are potentially seriously misrepresenting the true risk to an individual
teacher. Hopefully, all of the measures that school districts might put into
place will make my 6x-elevated risk estimate incorrect, but it's really hard
to know. It's also possible that kids just don't transmit the virus very
often. There's some evidence that that's the case, but I don't think we have
really solid data on the question.

[1] "Teachers had six times more germs in their workspace than accountants,
the second-place finisher ..."
[https://abcnews.go.com/Health/ColdandFluNews/dirty-ten-
germy...](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/ColdandFluNews/dirty-ten-germy-
jobs/story?id=6107063)

~~~
usaar333
> maybe 6x as likely to get infected as a random person

That is almost certainly not the case. California has had 350 daycare staff
get covid infections out of 100k+ workers. That's actually about a third the
rate on average.

Again, kids are less likely than average to have covid. Infectious kids may be
less likely to transmit. This is different from flu where kids are large
carriers. There are few documented cases of young kids (under 10) spreading to
other kids or to teachers.

------
DenisM
The Los Angelos teachers added a few other requests [1]. The introduction
starts with:

[...] LAUSD educators clearly want to get back into schools with their
students, but the underlying question at every step must be: Given broader
societal conditions, how do we open physical schools in a way that ensures
that the benefit outweigh the risks [...]

And then proceeds to the following recommendations, among many others:

\- Defund Police

\- Shelter the homeless

\- Paid sick leave for all

\- Medicare for all

\- "Charter Moratorium"

\- "Financial Support for Undocumented Students and Families"

\- Wealth tax

\- Millionaire tax

\- ...

[1] PDF
[https://www.utla.net/sites/default/files/samestormdiffboats_...](https://www.utla.net/sites/default/files/samestormdiffboats_final.pdf)

~~~
seibelj
I don't understand the logic around the left's hatred of charters. Parents
choose to send their kids there - if the existing public school was so good,
why would they send them somewhere else? It's simply about choice, and sending
your own kids to the best possible option. No one would ever deny their own
children the best possible education available. It's so clearly about
administrators and professionals over the needs of children, it's simply
immoral and bordering on evil.

~~~
dragonwriter
> I don't understand the logic around the left's hatred of charters

The left doesn't hate charters, it hates publicly subsidized private schools
that are not effectively accountable. That's a subset of charters plus all
vouchers.

Actual public charters, by which public schools are granted some variance of
generally applicable rules to trial new methods are not a problem to the left;
the hijacking of that process to create super-voucher schools when the voucher
model failed to gain sufficient political support is what the left hates.

> Parents choose to send their kids there

Often, after the local regular public school has been replaced by a privately-
operated charter in the same facility, and often the parents who most choose
to send their children their are the ones whose most-local school was
replaced, because it's the most convenient public school and going to a more
distant one has added cost.

~~~
jseliger
_it hates publicly subsidized private schools that are not effectively
accountable_

As opposed to existing publicly subsidized public schools that are not
effectively accountable?

~~~
dragonwriter
Charters are _explicitly_ reductions in institutional legal accountability,
and unlike public (charter or not) schools, the chief decision makers so
released from accountability with private schools are not accountable by
election, either.

~~~
timy2shoes
Yes, and it's difficult to get information from charter schools because they
are not subject to the same reporting that public schools are. This makes it
easy for people take advantage of their opaqueness.

These are a few examples from Los Angeles:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/06/17/how-
does...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/06/17/how-does-million-
charter-scam-work-heres-what-happened-california-before-people-were-indicted/)

[https://patch.com/california/studiocity/la-charter-
schools-f...](https://patch.com/california/studiocity/la-charter-schools-
founder-plead-embezzlement)

[https://www.scpr.org/blogs/education/2013/04/05/13188/los-
an...](https://www.scpr.org/blogs/education/2013/04/05/13188/los-angeles-
charter-school-founders-convicted-of-e/)

------
Kapura
My mother is an elementary school teacher, and I don't want her to go back to
school this year. The federal government is worse than useless, and the state
government is feckless and unwilling to make the tough calls to protect
people's lives.

She's been a teacher for ~15 years and still makes less than $30k a year
teaching. She loves helping the kids, but her life isn't worth it.

~~~
cheerlessbog
Where does she work that pays $30k for an experienced teacher? Teacher pay
sucks

~~~
Kapura
She's in Colorado. The teachers' union agreed to a pay cut & freeze during the
Bush financial crisis; pay had had only started to rise again a few years ago.

This is somewhat of a digression, but the extremely low rate of teacher pay
(for a job that _requires_ a Master's degree) limits the pool of available
teachers greatly. The people taking these jobs typically must have some other
way of supporting their family; either their spouse has a higher-paying
professional job or they are the beneficiary of some other form of
generational wealth.

But we tend to lose the teachers who must make ends meet their own selves on a
teacher's pay. There is no good economic argument made to become an elementary
school teacher.

~~~
leetrout
> There is no good economic argument made to become an elementary school
> teacher.

AMEN. I would NEVER recommend ANYONE become a teacher based on my wife's
experiences. You used to be able to write off expenses as "non-reimbursed
employee expenses" but they cut that out so teachers get the token $200
writeoff. We spend almost 10x that annually supporting her in the classroom.

It really is glorified day care in most peoples minds which is a real shame.

~~~
libraryatnight
My high school band friend became a high school music teacher. He was making
hardly enough money for his family to live without stress or worry, he asked
about wages they said they couldn't give raises, the only way they could
justify a raise is if he had more education - so he took some student loans
and got his masters. He was then told nothing could get him a raise, wages are
frozen. Around that time he emailed me asking for help getting a corporate
training gig where I was working. Of course I put in a word but I also pressed
back because I'd always known him to be incredibly passionate about teaching
and music. I always imagined him as a bit poorer than me, but a hell of a lot
happier (I was going through a bit of a depressed time thinking about the
"meaningfulness" of my corporate life). He said it wasn't about
meaningfulness, or enjoying the work, or passion, it was that at one point
they had to consider whether or not they had the budget for fucking light
bulbs one week. He moved on to a nice corporate training job, and does well
now. I haven't talked to him recently about if he still misses teaching, but I
am acutely aware there's kids out there missing out on an amazing band teacher
because we don't pay our teachers a salary that shows the profession any
respect. I guess my friend's richer and happy he can take vacations and buy
necessities without worry and for that I am glad, but I see the world as
little bit poorer.

~~~
leetrout
But he got his summers off! /s

Yea, it sucks all around.

------
gorbachev
My wife is a teacher. She's quitting in two weeks so that she can give her
mandatory 30-day notice in time for the beginning of the semester.

The planning being done for the next school year where we live is complete
bullshit. The politicians and administrators running the planning have no idea
about the realities.

They are driving these hybrid models with kids doing remote and in-person
learning in alternative days/weeks with the in-person class sizes being about
one third of the normal class size. To do that they would need at least twice
the amount of teachers (one to teach in-person, and one to teach remotely to
kids staying at home), possibly even more. Are they planning on hiring more
teachers? No.

It's going to be a complete shitshow even without teachers quitting en masse.

There's this completely unrealistic sense among the people in charge that
teachers will just magically make it work with no additional training, no
proper support, no additional resources, nothing.

And I'm not even addressing the difficulties families, especially those that
have multiple kids and/or can't work from home, will have with these proposed
schedules.

~~~
jimbokun
> There's this completely unrealistic sense among the people in charge that
> teachers will just magically make it work with no additional training, no
> proper support, no additional resources, nothing.

I honestly doubt they think it will magically work, I think there are no good
options that will give all the kids good educational outcomes, keep kids and
teachers safe, and allow the economy to function without the use of schools as
childcare, and that they are trying to pick the option that will have the
least number of people calling for their heads.

------
jsight
I feel like there is too much emphasis on these and not enough on the ones
that earnestly want to go back to work. There should be a balance here, as we
really do need a lot of students to have access to schools in the fall.

Remote learning doesn't work for everyone and leaves a lot of people behind.
The overall consequences of another lost semester may be far worse than the
consequences of reopening.

~~~
sl1ck731
I would prefer every student to be held back 1 semester from graduating high
school than 1 more dead (if that were a possibility, but you get the point).

I don't even understand how its possible to prefer sending kids back over one
semester. Of course I think the bigger issue is its just parents that want
kids out of the house for a multitude of reasons including getting back to
their own work.

~~~
lmilcin
It is easy to go about and proclaim, "life is priceless", "I would prefer to
have every student held back than one dead", and so on.

What of students that have debt and now will have to wait more to get their
"education"? Do you realize this is all going to cause more pain and suffering
and possible deaths?

Do you realize given more budget it is possible to save more people if you
spend it wisely?

~~~
sl1ck731
How does delaying your school career 1 semester cause death?

What debt? School debt? Are you talking about college? If you aren't attending
school at all then you aren't adding to the debt (in most cases with Federal
loans). If its online then you are still on track so I don't see your point.

~~~
lmilcin
We are talking about large number of people. On average this would take away
half a year of their productive life.

Nowadays, many people have a plan which is mostly: finish school, get a job
based on the education.

It is not difficult to see that if you set back financially large number of
people, suddenly, this might increase suicide rate, for example. Or may make
them worse off in many different ways causing some to tip into loosing life.

These are not easy decisions, and saying "I would prefer people to pause their
lives for 6 months than loose one life" is a completely braindead, extremist
way of looking at things.

To show how stupid this is, you can use just a portion of your home budget to
save a life. Today. There are many people that don't need much in the way of
help. You are free to find one and help him/her, without involving large
percentage of population that doesn't want to get involved in it.

I guess it is easier to go about and proclaim extremist slogans.

~~~
newfeatureok
> These are not easy decisions, and saying "I would prefer people to pause
> their lives for 6 months than loose one life" is a completely braindead,
> extremist way of looking at things.

Based on the data from March it's pretty easy to estimate the effects of
reopening things, including school. It's a very easy decision, don't reopen
yet.

You're comparing an estimated thousands to tens of thousands dying from
schools reopening to at most a few hundred thousand having to pause for 6
months and saying it's not an easy decision...?

Not to mention that most schools would have online programs as an alternative,
not hold everyone back so your entire premise is false anyway.

~~~
lmilcin
I was reacting to the person saying how easy the decision is.

Whether it is actually safe to let people back in schools, I have not enough
data and knowledge to decide. Most likely not.

------
3pt14159
This is exactly why all the people that said "choosing to protect life is also
choosing to protect the economy" were right. It sucks, but people with savings
can choose to quit over having to risk their lives. So if there is an
appreciable risk (and associated hazard, which, for many of our older
educators there is) then that is what is going to happen and you still get the
disruptions to the economy.

~~~
collegecamp293
Why are nurses and grocery workers working then? How are they less at risk
than teachers?

~~~
MarcScott
Medical staff get to wear PPE. As for grocery workers:

My wife's a teacher. She was back in school for a day last week, with a much
smaller class of children. The first thing one of her children tried to do on
seeing her was give her a hug. I doubt this happens to many grocery workers.

In September she'll spend about six hours a day in a poorly ventilated and
inadequately sized classroom with 30 children. Neither she nor the children
are allowed to wear masks or gloves. From the single days she has been in each
week, she's watched children unable to maintain social distancing in the
classroom or the playground. They cough, sneeze and wipe their noses on their
hands and then touch everything. That's what kids are like.

~~~
leetrout
> poorly ventilated and inadequately sized classroom

BINGO. That's what has bothered me the most and I've talked a lot to my wife
about what we can do to mitigate the risk.

> Neither she nor the children are allowed to wear masks or gloves

How is that enforceable? Seems like they shouldn't be allowed to mandate no
masks given the documented health risks.

~~~
hysan
Because if they didn’t, they’d get pushback from teachers unions demanding
schools provide masks (and soap, sanitizer, etc.). What most of America does
not realize is how little money American schools on average spend on school
supplies. Most teachers pay out of pocket for the majority of school supplies
(on top of their already low pay). So as with most things that make no sense,
it’s enforceable because there are people with significant sway up top that
realize how much more money will be needed if they didn’t enforce it.

~~~
leetrout
My wife is a teacher so I understand the situation intimately.

I do not see how saying "no one is allowed to wear as mask" as a policy is OK
when someone can provider their own PPE.

~~~
hysan
I get it too. I used to teach, albeit in a different country. Several of my
aunts, uncles, and cousins are teachers too. My answer was more geared towards
everyone else who had the same question you had but can't see how upper
management would logically justify such a response.

The crux of your question, though, is an ethical one and I think everyone
knows the answer - it's not OK.

Sadly, money often trumps ethics in America and my response was an explanation
as to why that happens. You will also see the very same people trot out ethics
as justification for their actions when it benefits them (case in point, one
reason for re-opening schools).

Your comment and question is a great one that everyone should be wondering.
The next step is to get people to understand why the illogical is happening
and who are making those decisions. That will point people towards confronting
the right people in power with the right arguments to push for change.

~~~
lozaning
My god thinks mouths and noses are ugly, hideous things that must not be seen.
As such our religious cannon/traditions require the wearing of masks over the
mouth and nose at all times.

Join us @ Maskbeterian.org (I only bought the domain today, give me a minute
to stand up a shitty wordpress site)

------
kvz
I live in the Netherlands. Schools were closed here for nearly two months and
then re-opened for 6 weeks now, the re-opening did not affect R. Tests are
available for all school personnel and there were no hospitalizations. Some
more data points:

\- we do take care that parents stay 1.5 meters apart. There’s special drop-
off routes and such, parents don’t enter the buildings \- I don’t have data on
this but I assume ventilation is good in our schools and they opened windows
\- kids had to wash their hands a lot \- younger kids can come close to
teachers and intermingle, older kids have to keep their distance \- we don’t
wear masks, they are only required in public transportation <— I disagree,
just stating what’s up here \- this is on a population of 17 mio

Perhaps this is in some ways too small or different a dataset for it to be
meaninful, but politics aside and living this reality it is apparent to me
that schools for young kids can be reopened with minimal risk.

~~~
int_19h
What were your numbers for new cases looking like when the schools reopened,
though? Keep in mind, many parts of US never even got past the first hump in
the curve.

------
prof-dr-ir
It is a bit surprising to me that there is such a strong focus in the US on
school closures and mask wearing (here on HN but also in the major
newspapers). It is my impression that in quite a few European countries there
have been, and to some extent still are, significant debates about the
effectiveness of both these measures. On the other hand, there appears to have
been a much more universal implementation of other measures, namely 'stay
home' (if you feel sick) and social distancing (be it 1m, 1.5m, 2m or 6
feet...) throughout affected Western European countries, all of which have the
epidemic under control for now. Am I alone in thinking that these measures
deserve more attention in the US?

~~~
int_19h
Social distancing isn't really contentious in US (other than the subset of the
population that believes that COVID is hoax).

"Stay home" is one of those things that are on every list of recommendations,
but it's completely non-viable in practice because of the way US handles
healthcare in work context. Keep in mind that there is no federal requirement
for paid sick leave, and only 13 states mandate it. Consequently, 30% of
workers don't get any paid sick leave at all - mostly the lowest-paying jobs,
that are paid the least (and so taking an unpaid day off can easily mean an
unpaid bill etc), and who interact with random people the most.

And don't forget that employment in US is "at-will", meaning that businesses
can fire workers without giving a reason. FMLA limits that somewhat wrt unpaid
sick leave, but 1) it only applies to businesses with at least 50 employees,
and 2) it only applies to illnesses that are _incapacitating_ to the person
claiming sick leave.

The focus is on mask wearing right now, because the return to stay-at-home is
clearly not happening, and so people go and mingle. If they mingle with masks,
they definitely reduce the transmission rate enough to notice - there's ample
evidence of that. What's unclear is just how large the effect is.

Also, why focus on Europe alone? We could also look at Japan, which seems to
have made a bet largely on mask wearing - and has some impressive results to
show for that.

~~~
prof-dr-ir
Those are some very good points, thank you. The lack of paid sick leave makes
me both sad and worried. My guess is that changing that situation, even
temporarily, could make a big difference in containing the pandemic.

I could not find a reliable source that ascribes Japan's relative success to
masks. Some ideas are discussed in [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-
asia-53188847](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53188847) . The advice from
Japan's ministry of health on masks is not a ringing endorsement, either:
[https://www.mhlw.go.jp/stf/seisakunitsuite/bunya/kenkou_iryo...](https://www.mhlw.go.jp/stf/seisakunitsuite/bunya/kenkou_iryou/dengue_fever_qa_00014.html#Q6)
.

~~~
int_19h
In Japan, it's not that the government forced everybody to wear masks - it's
that people just did that, with nearly 100% conformance.

We aren't certain that it's masks. But they did little else (e.g. no lockdowns
or travel restrictions); so it's either masks, or something unknown. Occam's
Razor says masks are more likely.

There are other anecdotal cases about mask efficiency. E.g. there is a hair
salon in US where two hairdressers got COVID, and they served 139 clients in 8
days, before testing positive; one was symptomatic for the entire period, the
other one for 5 days. Per company policy, they wore mask consistently while
working with clients.

During that time period, they infected 4 people - but all of these were their
family or roommates. None of the clients they serviced developed symptoms then
or within a month, and of the half who consented to testing, none tested
positive.

Besides, we do have good reasons to believe that masks are efficient just
based on physics and biology alone. We do know that masks are definitely
effective at stopping saliva droplets, and we do know that droplets definitely
spread COVID. So even if it has other vectors (e.g. aerosols), masks would
still reduce the overall viral load, and thus chances of infection.

------
dragonwriter
One should note that the safety risks are not one sided, as the American
Academy of Pediatrics has pointed out in strongly urging planning centered
around means to reopen in-person schooling, there are risks to health and
lives at issue with _not_ returning to school:

> the AAP strongly advocates that all policy considerations for the coming
> school year should start with a goal of having students physically present
> in school. [...] Lengthy time away from school and associated interruption
> of supportive services often results in social isolation, making it
> difficult for schools to identify and address important learning deficits as
> well as child and adolescent physical or sexual abuse, substance use,
> depression, and suicidal ideation. This, in turn, places children and
> adolescents at considerable risk of morbidity and, in some cases, mortality

[https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-
cov...](https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-
covid-19-infections/clinical-guidance/covid-19-planning-considerations-return-
to-in-person-education-in-schools/)

~~~
hhs
Please note that there’s more to the story than that statement:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/07/13/trump-
ad...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/07/13/trump-
administration-cites-american-academy-pediatrics-make-its-case-school-
reopening-heres-what-aap-really-said/)

~~~
dragonwriter
I'm not endorsing the simplistic and punitive Trump Administration spin that
is at issue in your story, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Both the “reopen without significant investment in safety” and “stay closed”
sides are both grave health risks and education failures, as the original
statement itself implies and the further elaboration makes clear.

It's probably the case that, reduced to those options, “stay closed” (to in-
person schooling, continuing distance learning) is best for _teachers_ , so
it's understandable that with governments refusing to offer more when it comes
to reopening that’s their stance. But even when it is reduced to those two bad
options, it's far less clear that that's the best for kids (especially since a
lot of the private internet access subsidies from ISPs, that were given with
no obligation by providers, that mitigated the inequities with distance
learning have expired.)

------
hellofunk
Well it is definitely true that having schools fully open does not contribute
to much greater risk _if the community already has the virus under control_ as
this has been widely demonstrated by many European countries where infection
rates continued to decrease, hospitalizations and deaths decreased, even as
schools fully opened. But in those countries, they actually did the
responsible thing and had a full uncompromised lockdown for months to get the
virus under control.

------
hosh
For the teachers whose calling is teaching, I can see them moving to this
part-time: [https://outschool.com](https://outschool.com)

My wife and I were concerned about our daughter getting isolated. We don't
want her on social media, but we do think it is important for her to connect
with her affinity group, and explore her passions. I found out about outschool
recently, and it looked like exactly what we needed to address this.

The classes and activities on outschool don't conform to any national
standard. Instead, teachers, both accredited and non-accredited, can teach
subjects they are interested in teaching. In turn, technology is used to
connect interested students together with the teacher.

There are some really unusual things that connects different disciplines
together in a more wholistic way. Such as a class on world architecture using
Mindcraft.

Teacher set their own pricing at a minimum of $10 for a course, and the
platform takes 30%. Some are prerecorded and some are live. The intended
audience if k-12.

~~~
seniorgarcia
So, keeping my child engaged for 5 days a week would cost about 150$ and 45$
go to the platform (judging from glancing over class duration/classes per week
and cost).

Can somebody tell me what value outschool adds aside from being an agency?

~~~
cheschire
What's wrong with the only value being an agency? Do you not approve of B2B
generally speaking?

If teachers didn't have a service like this to use, they would each have to
find their own way to attract the attention of potential students.

~~~
seniorgarcia
I don't care, I don't have children. I think it's interesting that 30% is evil
when it comes to app stores or food delivery but with outschool.com suddenly
it is well deserved.

As someone from Germany I also think that 600€ for "entertaining" one child
(with 180€ going to a platform provider) is crazy.

I don't have kids though so in the end if that's what the market rate ends up
at apparently it is either what parents are willing to pay or at least it is
what market providers presume to be a realistic rate (and we will see how soon
the marketplace will run out of money).

------
QuercusMax
In Santa Clara County, CA (Silicon Valley), a group of 40 principals got
together in person a few weeks back to discuss reopening plans.

And they got COVID.

Is it any wonder that teachers don't trust that they will be kept safe?

~~~
gorbachev
Israel was forced to close their schools again after infections skyrocketed
with schools opened. One school had 114 students and 14 teachers get infected.

This is exactly what's going to happen in the US as well, especially in the
states that are seeing explosive infection rates at the moment.

~~~
usaar333
Well, that's what happens if you keep high schools open (where the kids are
much more susceptible) and don't attempt reasonable social distancing.

20 elementary school aged kids that must stay with their group? Teachers
required to only interact with one group of kids? I'm less worried at least in
areas that aren't at TX/AZ/FL levels.

------
yboris
A protest sign I saw is an apt response to the situation:

"Why should we go to school if you won't listen to the educated?"

~~~
sfotm
Because education is valuable regardless of whether or not everyone listens to
you?

~~~
triceratops
If no one listens to you, who is a formal education valuable to, exactly? I
assign no personal value to the pieces of paper I got from the various
institutions I've graduated from - society and the job market values them.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
To you, even if nobody listens to you.

~~~
triceratops
I already answered that.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
No, you didn't. You said you don't assign any value to the piece of paper.
Find, but did you actually _learn_ anything in the process? That has value, to
you.

Now, perhaps your point is that the _formal_ education didn't matter, that is,
you could just as easily have learned the same thing by informal means. That
is true, if you had the self-discipline or curiosity to do so. While you may
have had that, and I did, many who attend public school do not. The things
they learn are still of value to them.

------
Consultant32452
Pennsylvania is considering putting the funding with the kids, rather than
through the system/administration. The average spending per student in the US
is about $15k/yr. If that money went with the student, instead of to
administration, etc. a teacher could take on 10 students and make $150k/yr
revenue. A mainstream online curriculum for those students costs less than
$30/mo. I'm not saying that's exactly the solution, I don't want to get caught
up in the details on the HN forum, but I hope we can head in that vague
direction.

~~~
enchiridion
This is a great idea! Cut the amount a bit to pay for state oversight and
certification. Maybe light standardized testing to make sure everyone is
generally on track.

------
mmastrac
Underpaid, unappreciated by many, overcrowed in classrooms, forced to pay for
their own supplies. Not really surprising -- I would not last long in that
situation when you add in life-threatening.

Education _needs_ a massive reform.

------
hodgesrm
This is another example of how modern economies are driven by individual
choices about participation--in this case teachers refusing to provide service
because they don't feel safe. The same choices are devastating a wide range of
industries like aviation, hospitality, tourism, etc.

It's a little mindboggling that so many political leaders do not understand
this basic concept. Economics is far from perfect but the effect of the
pandemic on economic behavior was about as close to a slam dunk prediction as
you can get.

------
purple_ferret
Serious question. At this point, why can't teachers wear n95 masks? Data has
shown they adequately protect even healthcare workers that are constantly
exposed to heavy viral loads.

~~~
ceejayoz
> “They said we’d have masks and face shields and everyone is going to be
> covered, but it’s a school district — sometimes we don’t have soap,” he
> said.

We've had trouble getting enough N95s for healthcare staff, let alone
teachers.

~~~
mnm1
Meanwhile multiple N95 production lines are sitting dormant in Texas and
elsewhere. You're confusing not being willing to make masks with having
trouble getting enough. No, we have no trouble getting enough. We have no
willingness to make any. Those two couldn't be further from each other.

------
beepboopbeep
There is no excuse for this behavior from politicians and the public at large.
This is selfish ignorance of the utmost degree.

It is, at face value, ridiculous to even think of re-opening schools. The real
story is the total and complete abdication of their duties by elected
politicians. Faced with a tough choice, they'd rather let people die and
systems collapse then take responsibility. Despite watching this unfold in the
news and social media for months, these people chose to ignore it and shrug
or, as we've seen with kemp, purposefully stop other governments from enacting
policies, and now thousands will die.

Why these politicians haven't been dragged out into the street is beyond me.
We are going to soar clean over 200,000 people dead in no time-- many of which
were preventable.

Just imagine-- if a contractor's shoddy work resulted in 3 people being
killed, they'd be hauled into court on gross negligence charges.
Yet...politicians are being given a pass. That's not ok.

------
eric_b
What about the gas station workers? Grocery store workers? Millions are
working during COVID as they're deemed "essential". Teachers are just as
essential.

------
nullc
We pay teachers poorly enough that plenty of people who otherwise would be
teachers were already choosing to not take those jobs.

Now keep the poor pay and crank up the risk of death knob.

Obvious result is obvious, it's actually surprising to me that they're
actually _able_ to reopen schools-- that the number of teachers uninterested
in continuing in this environment isn't much greater.

How many teachers does it take to quit before you can't reopen? 10%? 20%? Many
are economically desperate enough that they'll take the added risk of death,
but surely a portion is not.

I can only imagine that there are also a lot of parents who don't want their
kids back in schools, perhaps there is a much greater market now for private
tutoring.

------
pokstad
School districts should give at-risk teachers the first pick for virtual work.
When they run out of virtual teaching jobs, they should offer voluntary
furlough. Allowing teachers the flexibility to temporarily leave would allow
younger and healthier risk-takers to step up and do the job during the
pandemic. In our current economy, there are tons of young healthy workers
willing to take these teaching jobs.

Any worker is free to quit if they don't agree with the risks. The real
problem, that I don't see mentioned anywhere, is that teachers want to
continue being paid the same salary and benefits to teach virtually, despite
virtual learning being a disaster. They want to have their cake and eat it
too.

------
aaomidi
The federal government is doing this on purpose to kill public schools.

~~~
tathougies
Public schools have failed students, especially minorities. Good

~~~
skrowl
I wish we had decent charter school options where I live.

I bet A LOT of parents have this same wish.

~~~
aaomidi
Charter schools take funding that was made by the public for the public and
decide to do whatever they want from it.

Charter schools are also not required to provide adequate support for children
that need extra accommodation.

------
blisseyGo
Media has done a great job at fear mongering. People aren't realizing that
kids not being able to go to school means the child abuse numbers are through
the roof and they aren't even getting caught or reported. There are safe ways
of achieving schooling without putting older teachers at risk.

~~~
newbie789
Such as?

------
MattGaiser
I have to ask you Americans. Are you giving up on society yet?

I'm Canadian, and it is surreal watching the country below us completely waste
the lockdown so they can go to beaches and bars and then urgently move to
shoving kids back into the classroom.

Do you still feel that you can count on your government? On your neighbours?

~~~
mulmen
I’m optimistic. We are being tested from many directions right now and when we
come out of this we will be better for it.

~~~
mikeg8
Same. Progress isn't always smooth or comfortable. Like being at the gym and
feeling your muscles burn. But the work and struggle will be worth it, and I'm
confident the American spirit will pull us through to a better future.

------
hprotagonist
My 65 year old parent, an educator in a sunbelt state, told their
superintendent that if the distict came back for in person classes too early,
they would walk on the spot.

they'll be online-only for at least the fall.

------
627467
I find it odd that countries/cities with _much_ higher population density (and
some, worst healthcare ie. in east Asia) are not going through this paranoia
(finding hard to pick a mildler term) that many in the west have been going
through. It's like: "I'm not leaving my house EVER until my (insert authority)
guarantees I or someone won't die".

I guess people suddenly have _much_ higher expectation of what is
realistically authorized can guarantee. Good luck with that.

------
dnprock
I follow COVID-19 data. I notice an interesting trend: Cases increase. Deaths
and hospitalizations have not increased much.

It seems the US has come up with good enough cures for COVID-19. The cost of
shutdown is high. The trend is reopening.

[https://vida.io/dashboards/ckbk04mht00000ul63lr6m53w](https://vida.io/dashboards/ckbk04mht00000ul63lr6m53w)

------
scarface74
My wife is a school bus driver. I got another job where I could work from home
and make more money partial so she could quit working.

------
tt
Here's San Francisco guidance for school reopening:
[https://www.sfdph.org/dph/alerts/covid-
guidance/Preliminary-...](https://www.sfdph.org/dph/alerts/covid-
guidance/Preliminary-Guidance-TK12-Schools.pdf)

------
jedimastert
I have a friend who got hired for his first teaching job this summer. It's all
he's wanted to do and he's incredibly passionate. He's afraid that if he backs
out now the school board won't hire him back after this is all over.

------
jMyles
Sweden's strategy is looking more sensible every day (with the exception of
failing to isolate nursing homes, which was a blunder). Their excess mortality
rate is back to zero, and they never closed schools for a day.

~~~
mynameishere
Once President-Elect Biden pronounces this strategy on November 4th (with
universal acclaim from the media and all corners of the ruling class), you can
point to your comment from today and get some more downvotes!

------
miked85
There isn't a way to force schools to reopen in person right now. As soon as
there is an outbreak (and there will be), teachers will stop going, and
parents won't allow their kids to go.

------
tomohawk
In Iceland, they did extensive testing, and genetic tracing of infections.

Children infecting other children was extremely rare. In almost all cases, it
was adults infecting them.

There was only a single case of a child infecting an adult.

[https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/blog/hunting-down-
covi...](https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/blog/hunting-down-covid-19/)

Now that we have actual experience with the disease, hospitalization rates for
children with covid is 5x lower than flu.

As pediatricians have noted, focusing only on covid risks leaves a whole host
of other more serious risks with no management.

~~~
tgv
Iceland, of course, has only 360.000 inhabitants.

~~~
neverartful
How big of a sample size do you need to be convinced?

~~~
tgv
32 different countries? Iceland doesn't necessarily generalize to denser
populations. Even the capital, Reykjavik, has a low population density,
472/km2, whereas New York has over 10,000/km2.

------
odysseus
Why not have older teachers that are more at risk teach from home via video?
Then have a younger proctor coordinate with kids in the classroom.

------
engineer_22
It's too late to put the genie back in the bottle. Whether we like it or not
we're going with the Sweden Model. I've got school age kids myself, and I
understand the risk. This is going to be a situation that could become hard to
manage but our society's economy is constructed in such a way that relies on
daytime programming for children and teens outside of their home. The teachers
are going to have to help bear the load, just as we all are.

~~~
coldcode
Are you willing to die for the economy? Ask your kids, are they OK with you
dying so that money can be made, maybe collect on some life insurance money?
Are you OK with your kids potentially dying (rare but not zero) just to keep
them busy during the day? I bet not.

~~~
rpiguy
Yes. And there are many millions of unafraid people. Doesn't mean they aren't
cautious, but they understand risk.

Children have a higher chance of dying in a car accident, are you going to
stop driving tomorrow, because you know a non-zero chance of dying is all you
will accept.

~~~
Buttons840
> Children have a higher chance of dying in a car accident

Some numbers related to this claim:

In 2018 about 37,000 people died in the U.S. in motor vehicle accidents, not
all of them were children.

Currently, about 250,000 people are dying per year from COVID19 in the U.S.
Not all of them are children.

It's not clear to me that your claim is true. Granted, only a few COVID19
deaths are children, but how many auto fatalities involve children?

~~~
rpiguy
For frame of reference according to the CDC 31 total deaths of children age
1-14 since the pandemic started.

That’s not a typo - 31.

[https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Ag...](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#AgeAndSex)

130 died from flu.

675 died children in car accidents.

[https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/child_passenger_safet...](https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/child_passenger_safety/cps-
factsheet.html)

------
ryandrake
Teachers' unions are among the most powerful unions left in the country. If
there ever was a time for them to flex that power, it's now: In the middle of
a raging worldwide pandemic, they are actually being asked to risk dying for
their jobs _and_ risk having their classrooms turn into petri dishes sending
infected children back to infect their families. If that's not enough to
motivate collective action, what is?

~~~
pantaloony
The power of teacher’s unions varies a ton. Supposedly in some places they
have so much power it’s impossible to fire teachers for pretty much any
reason. I’ve never seen anything close to that, but I believe accounts that
such districts exist. Meanwhile in others the best they can do, with great
effort, is get districts to pinkie-promise not to abuse teachers (but then do
it anyway, of course). That’s the only kind I’ve seen but I dunno how it works
in New York or Chicago or wherever.

------
segmondy
Teachers have gone on strike for paychecks, I hope they do so because their
lives are worth more than paychecks.

------
maerF0x0
Good, that will save us from laying them all off when Online school teachers
are able to teach nearly unlimited students via repeatable content like
videos.

And those who are better tutors than lecturers can become tutors for those who
need more help

------
doggydogs94
Maybe a nationwide gap year.

~~~
ipnon
This whole generation is going to be lost. It's not a cataclysm, but a whole
generation of American kids are going to be a year or two behind on their
studies. They will have grown up during unprecedented social unrest. If the
economy doesn't recover and society doesn't support their families, millions
of them will grow up in poverty. It's not a certainty, but the outlook could
be much better. It's sad, I feel for these kids.

~~~
dragonwriter
> They will have grown up during unprecedented social unrest.

No, they won't. The almost continuous post-war race riots and civil rights
protests of the 1940s-1960s (overlapping with the anti-war protests of the
1960s), the intense period of labor and race riots in the interwar period,
and...well, it goes on and on as you go back to and before the Revolutionary
period.

Not unprecedented, or even close.

------
mola
Illegal to strike, my God ....

------
xnyan
Thinking about having a kid. There's no way I would ever have a kid in my
current US state. Not saying anyone has done it well vs rest of the world, but
there are clearly states (and counties/cities) that have done a much better
job at protecting human life than others.

As someone who has lived in the US South for most of my childhood and adult
life, I truly don't think it's responsible to have children here if you have
another choice. I know a lot of people don't, but I do and I'm out of here.

~~~
ashtonkem
Ditto, except I’m dubious about the prospect of having a child in America.

~~~
larntz
I think people have felt the same about having children throughout most of
history.

Do you want a child born into slavery?

Do you want a child subject to a totalitarian government?

Do you want a child born into extreme poverty or famine?

I feel like if you want to have a kid you have one and you deal with whatever
adversity comes along.

Take the opportunity to prepare your child to deal with the world that exists
regardless of the circumstances. The more children that grow up with
thoughtful parents that prepare them to face problems in the more possibility
the world will be a better place in the future.

I'm sure my argument isn't well thought at being that it's 4:30pm on a Friday,
but I really feel like regardless of the issues we face in society today we
are living in the best time to be alive ever and if you have the means to care
for a child, and you want children, there's nothing that should stop you from
having one.

~~~
ashtonkem
This argument is unconvincing and really annoying. I don’t care about the
calculus other people had to go through to have children in other times
because _I’m not them_. Every human makes decisions based on the pressures
they experience in their own life, pointing out that times were worse
elsewhere is just annoying pedantry.

And of course, part of my point was I’m dubious about having a kid _in
America_. As in, I’d be open to going expat and raising a child somewhere I
think is safer and more stable.

~~~
larntz
I had no intention of being annoying. Apologies for that. I only meant to
offer some optimism.

I understand your point of view, and I respect it.

~~~
ashtonkem
No worries, it's a common response and I clearly have a knee-jerk reaction to
it.

------
bzb3
How many? 2? 200? 20%? 90%? Without an answer to this question this doesn't
seem a productive discussion.

------
war1025
I believe the old FDR phrase, "There's nothing to fear but fear itself," is
becoming more and more accurate with our situation.

The risk from this virus goes down dramatically the younger you are. Kids are
young. That's obvious. Their parents also tend to be young, at least young
enough to not be in the high risk groups.

These groups are also accustomed to being sick or dealing with sick people.

If there were no vaccine in the pipeline, our only option would be herd
immunity. If we were shooting for herd immunity, the groups exposed by going
back to school would be exactly who we'd want to put at risk from a
statistical standpoint.

So it's really a question of do we want to continue hiding out in hopes that
they truly are able to fast track a vaccine, or do we want to just deal with a
couple hard months and get our lives back?

Most of the alarmism at the beginning of all this was centered around it being
a repeat of the 1918 flu pandemic. It's not.

~~~
lm28469
Or you know, you could deal with the virus like 99% of the other first world
countries and be half way through it instead of still not having hit the peak
of the epidemic. It's crystal clear that the US is doing something wrong.
"it's not that bad", "europe is reopening schools so we should do it too", &c.

What kind of mental gymnastic do you have to go through to even write these
things... [https://i.imgur.com/2Pkl2PY.png](https://i.imgur.com/2Pkl2PY.png)

~~~
war1025
> It's crystal clear that the US is doing something wrong.

And if that's the reality, then we need to figure out how to move forward from
there. We can't go back to March and convince everyone to do a better job of
shelter in place.

We followed all the rules in my family. It was, in my opinion, a waste of
time. I'm not going to hide in a hole for fear of the damn boogey man for the
next three years.

~~~
AlexandrB
> We can't go back to March and convince everyone to do a better job of
> shelter in place.

Apparently it's impossible to convince Americans to do a better job of
anything. So "moving forward from here" is going to be just as incompetent and
half-assed as shelter in place was. Apparently no one in power has learned a
thing, hence this article.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
It's not just those in power. Too few people in the populace learned that they
really needed to follow heath guidelines like this was serious. Without that,
the people in power can't do too much.

And why do many people not take the guidelines seriously? Partly it's because
of the fumbling and incompetent response to Covid, but it's not just that.
Government/political leadership has been setting their credibility on fire for
a decade or several. (To be clear: It's not just this president, it's not just
this administration, and it's not just one party.) They've been too busy
trying to win at political trench warfare to actually _govern_ , and the
people have noticed. Too often, neither reason nor competence have been on
display. So when it actually matters, nobody is willing to listen to the
politically-driven clown show, because it's probably just more of the same.
(And, to some degree, it was.)

So "moving forward" will require rebuilding trust in government. People need
to trust that policy will be competent and (at least in something like this)
not set by politics. That's going to take a decade or several to rebuild.

------
kevmo
Why wouldn't a teacher quit if they possibly could? The pay is peanuts,
certainly not worth any serious immediate risk to your health.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
It's a lot better than no pay at all!

(Also fwiw, teacher salaries in the US do vary greatly by state. You won't
make off like a bandit anywhere, but it's a perfectly respectable amount in
some places.)

~~~
pravda
Teachers around me (NYC suburbs) are getting $200K compensation packages!

I consider that making out like a bandit. Only 186 days of work a year,
summers off, can never be fired.

------
koop123
Maybe all nurses should quit, too.

~~~
lm28469
idk if it's a tongue in cheek comment or what but when you sign up to work in
the medical system it's kind of implied (and probably explicitly written in
your work contract) that you'll encounter dangerous and unpleasant situations,
much less for teachers, especially when the whole thing is unnecessary and
preventable in the first place.

~~~
matz1
Except the danger is overblown, there is risk ? yes of course, like everything
else in life there is risk. Thats being said If they feel uncomfortable to
work then they should quit, give opportunity for other teacher to take their
job.

~~~
adamsea
No. The danger is not overblown.

New teachers just don’t appear out of the woodworks, it takes time to be
trained. Plus, since in the US it’s such a poorly paid and poorly respected
profession (at least not respected by society; Id imagine parents appreciate
teachers), where will these new teachers come from?

~~~
matz1
>No. The danger is not overblown.

Ok not for you but at least for me and whole lot other people consider the
risk be overblown.

>New teachers just don’t appear out of the woodworks, it takes time to be
trained

This assume there are more teacher who are afraid than not. If there is truly
lack of teacher then there are plenty of ways to urge them to work, such as
giving more benefit.

~~~
lm28469
> Ok not for you but at least for me and whole lot other people consider the
> risk be overblown.

Funny to think that this is exactly the mental state that put the US at the
top of the worsts countries in term of coronavirus response.

Six months in and "it's just the flu bro" is still going strong, humans are
weird.

~~~
matz1
I agree the US government response is really disappointing, they should have
just reopen everything now.

I'm not saying that there nothing should be done regarding this virus. The
vaccine research still have to continue, treatment research still have to
continue, increase medical capacity(if needed) still have to be done.

What I'm against is this lockdown/restriction and this fear mongering because
the damage it cause is more than the virus.

>Six months in and "it's just the flu bro" is still going strong, humans are
weird

I'm not saying its just flu, I'm saying the risk of this virus is very low.
The data clearly shown that for majority of cases it either asymptotic or only
mild symptom.

Would there be risk of death due or long term damage to his virus ? of course,
any diseases could cause that but the risk is low.

~~~
lm28469
> I'm saying the risk is very low. The data clearly shown that for majority of
> cases it either asymptotic or only mild symptom.

The data also shows that 140k Americans died (probably many more if you take
into account the excess deaths that have been recorded but haven't been linked
to covid yet) and many more will suffer long term side effects. The data also
shows that Europeans countries almost completely curbed the epidemic and can
_safely_ and _slowly_ reopen because they went through a real lock down. If
anything the data clearly shows that reopening anything in the US right now is
suicide for thousands of people.

This situation will be a literal text book example of how to completely fail
at handling an epidemic for the centuries to come, it would be comical if it
wasn't for all the preventable deaths and suffering.

~~~
matz1
So only 140k died (0.04%) and with now with the death rate that is going down,
its a good news, even more reason to reopen as soon as possible.

~~~
burner831234
Amazing for someone to write off 140k deaths. Only 58,000 died in Vietnam.
Thats literally in and out of "theaters of war". 1900 died in the Gulf war and
those are ppl who "signed up for it".

So, only 140k died. Callous AF.

~~~
matz1
Because its not worth it to make millions other people suffer due to lockdown.

~~~
pqhwan
I’m sorry, but of all the things I’ve read on HN regarding this pandemic, your
lack of empathy truly stands out. Of the “millions other people” you
mentioned, there are two types: those who feel a sense of duty to bear their
share of burden to stop this virus from taking (complete strangers’) lives,
and those who reject that notion, _eagerly_ treating those lives, and the
lives of people who would grieve their losses, as statistics to be put on
scale with profit and growth for a quick decision. I’m not saying that people
in the latter invented that scale; that scale is indeed a fact of life. But
when I think of my own experience of loss, I cannot imagine that those who
tout the balance of this scale as the sole reason for policy decisions
understand the weight of a lost life.

~~~
matz1
Of course i understand it can be tragic for some people to loss life due to
this virus but I also understand to achieve near 0 death will also incur high
cost.

>your lack of empathy truly stands out.

I disagree, I sympathize those millions who suffer due to the lockdown. Their
suffering is real as well.

------
tathougies
Wonderful. If they stay employed, we have to pay their salaries, despite not
receiving any kind of education for America's children. We can't fire them,
due to the union. But if they quit, we achieve everything -- tax payers save
money for something they are not getting, and the funds can be used to educate
children (Perhaps by direct payments to parents for use in hiring private
tutors, or whatever).

~~~
csb6
This comment shows an astounding lack of anything resembling human empathy.
Teachers do not want to return to work because the outbreak is getting worse
in many places, and the already underpaid job of being a teacher would become
even more dangerous. Ask any teacher (especially grade school) during normal
times: they get sick constantly, and kids constantly pass around colds/the
flu. In AZ, the emergency room ICUs are so full that patients are having to be
flown to New Mexico. Huh, I wonder why teachers are concerned. Probably just
union BS.

America’s children not receiving education isn’t the fault of teachers. It is
the fault of a failed state that is unable to protect public health. Instead,
you (and probably a large portion of older, affluent Americans) will celebrate
as our already underpaid teachers are forced to seek other work rather than
kill their students/families. Before the pandemic, many teachers in my
district were forced to work second jobs (e.g. at restaurants). This is a
breaking point.

America has truly lost any sense of community solidarity or just the barest
altruism. Everything has become individualized and treated like a business
cost that needs to be cut off like some sort of tumor in order to boost some
shitty education startups that is “innovative” or “focused on shareholder
value” or some shit. Teachers have an interest in not seeing their
students/students’ families die, so it seems pretty obvious why they would be
reluctant to pack a bunch of children in a classroom setting. But hey, maybe
we can all create tutoring startups and unbundle public education into 40 SaaS
apps.

~~~
tathougies
> Instead, you (and probably a large portion of older, affluent Americans)
> will celebrate as our already underpaid teachers are forced to seek other
> work rather than kill their students/families. Before the pandemic, many
> teachers in my district were forced to work second jobs (e.g. at
> restaurants). This is a breaking point.

Yes. Teachers at private schools are paid much less but produce better
outcomes, despite having similar demographics. For example, Catholic school
teachers earn much less (and catholic schools spend much less per pupil than
similar pupils at public schools). Yet the outcomes are better. This is not a
problem with pay. The public school system and teachers who are complicit in
it have failed our students.

And to be clear.. I am not older. I have soon-to-be school age children. My
mother was a teacher. We have seen the rot in the system, and our children
will not be attending. Especially as a minority, we cannot let our children be
subject to the silent and self-denying racism inherent in the public school
system. Sorry you don't get to ruin my kid's life as people like you forced my
mother to ruin other children's lives be following the edicts of the public
school system.

------
goda90
Human ingenuity has accomplished some marvelous things in the last century. I
can't help but wonder how easily we could have tooled up for mass production
of affordable PAPRs to distribute for times when remote work isn't very
effective, like teaching children.

~~~
leetrout
Powered Air Purifying Respirators

[https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/ppe-
strategy/p...](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/ppe-
strategy/powered-air-purifying-respirators-strategy.html)

------
throwawaysea
LA’s teachers union issued calls to defund the police and limit charter
schools (AKA competition and accountability for teachers) as part of their
reopening plans so I’m not sure that health is the only thing in play. It
seems like large numbers of teachers are just openly exploiting this crisis
for political and personal gain.

[https://news.yahoo.com/l-teachers-union-calls-
defund-1649434...](https://news.yahoo.com/l-teachers-union-calls-
defund-164943481.html)

