
Roadster 3.0 - cpwright
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/roadster-30
======
kenrikm
If Tesla continues to follow this route it will have lasting implications for
the automotive industry. Instead of replacing" your car every 5-10 years you
can "Upgrade" keeping existing chassis but replacing enough to make it "Like
New" (Refurb vs Replace) Automakers sell a completely new car just to make a
few thousand dollars every 5-10 years and that's only if the customer stays
loyal (Also why some car companies have loyalty incentives) in this case Tesla
can still make that income and the customer is locked in as a bonus this will
help to keep resale values high since there will be less cars on the market
because owners upgrade instead of selling.

Now more then ever I wish I bought Tesla stock before it went through the
roof.

~~~
chatmasta
Automakers lock consumers into rebill programs via debt, i.e. a car loan.
Tesla locks consumers into rebill via equity, i.e. a nice car, conveniently
iteratively upgradeable. Thus Tesla gains capital advantage because it has no
liability after disposing of a car asset, while automakers generate debt
liability. For every car manufactured, automakers create a liability for
themselves, while Tesla creates an automated income stream. Consequently cash
flows better in Tesla than in its competitors. Relative to that of automakers,
Tesla cash flow increases exponentially. Tesla is competing on a different
level. The automakers will be lucky to earn a spot on Tesla's platform. At the
very least, Tesla has a first-mover advantage in a surprisingly new market.

~~~
gaadd33
Do the automakers still finance car loans directly? I know GMAC turned into
Ally and is no longer owned by GM. I'm not so familiar with the other
automaker's financial arms.

~~~
zrail
In my experience buying a VW and a Mazda, the financing I've been offered has
been through another company. I don't remember who the VW bank was (financed
through my credit union at the time), but the Mazda financing is a co-branded
Chase loan.

According to Wikipedia[1] Ford is the only one of the big three Detroit
manufacturers to still have it's own financing arm. As you noted, GMAC spun
off into Ally, and Chrysler Financial was bought by TD Bank.

[1]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Credit_Company](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Credit_Company)

~~~
kylec
I bought a VW earlier this year and financed it through VW Credit, which is
part of the Volkswagen Group.

------
alexggordon
Kudos to joesfresco for originating this idea[0], but after observing Tesla
for the last couple of months, they're really developing car hardware, as
though it was software, and it's continually winning me over as a better
automobile "development" cycle.

No car company has ever existed quite like Tesla, and I think this is almost
the automobile 'iPhone' in the making. They've done three incredibly important
things in this press release, that has taken me a bit to fully appreciate.

First, they're the first car company that I know of that has offered serious
vehicle improvements as a service, ever. Tesla is offering 40%-50% improvement
on range. Imagine Ford coming out tomorrow and saying anyone can bring their
cars in and we'll improve your MPG by 40%-50% for a few thousand. That's
unreal.

Second, to do this, they HAD to have looked at the possibility of just
releasing a new and improved Roadster, with no upgrade kit. However, they not
only actively made the decision to not do that, but to offer it as an "update"
simply because they saw it as a bigger benefit to their users. This is a move
on par with Tesla shipping the new hardware with cars coming off the assembly
line, and then activating that hardware once it was announced [1].

Third, by doing this, Tesla, is training it's customers to recognize that
Tesla's are a long-term investment. It's literally a punch right in the face
of modern car manufacturers, letting them know that a new car every year is
not the way we do business. They're saying that this car is not a product of a
year of development, but a product of years of innovation and development.

Suddenly, $70,000 for a car is a lot more justifiable if I know the
manufacturer will be updating and improving my vehicle in 4 years still.

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8556449](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8556449)
[1] [http://www.teslamotors.com/en_EU/forum/forums/autopilot-
info...](http://www.teslamotors.com/en_EU/forum/forums/autopilot-info-cars-
delivered-w-new-hardware)

~~~
PinguTS
Nothing new. You can go the you Audi, BMW, Mercedes Dealer and "upgrade" your
car with some features as long as no new hardware is required.

It is quite common for some time, that a number of features are just a bit
flip in the settings if it is enabled in your car or not. That is the reason
why there is a whole industry around, which do things like "chip tuning". They
just reverse engineered those things.

May be you can't go to a dealer in the US. But that is related to a different
market situation. I learned, in the US you buy that car that the dealer has in
his show floor available. In Europe, especially in Germany I order my car to
my like. I can also go to that dealer and "add" features afterwards.

~~~
throwawaymsft
I think you missed the key point the parent was making: what other
manufacturer offers to upgrade your car's _hardware_ (without it being part of
a safety recall!).

They'd rather you buy a new car with the better battery pack, vs. just
upgrading that component.

------
xasos
>Roadster upgrade will enable non-stop travel from LA to SF -- almost 400 mile
range. Details tmrw. Merry Christmas!
([https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/548269323681529856](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/548269323681529856))

I think this is super awesome. The fact that range is up from 265 miles to 400
is a great accomplishment. I look forward to seeing what the Tesla team will
be doing in the upcoming years.

~~~
Timmmmmm
That's actually pretty significant. I doubt anyone would want to drive more
than 400 miles in a day. You can almost get between any two points in England
with that range.

~~~
waterlesscloud
400 miles wouldn't even get me to my brother's place in the next state over.

More than 400 miles in a day is common in US roadtripping. On the other hand,
breaking up those long driving days with a reasonable recharging period would
be more than OK.

~~~
grobinson
I think for many Europeans it's easy to forget just how big USA and Canada
are. I've been on vacation (we just call it holiday) where we've driven SF ->
Yosemite -> Las Vegas -> Arizona -> LA, and on another trip DC -> Virginia ->
Charleston -> Savannah -> DC, and both times I've forgotten just how long it
takes to get anywhere. I suspect this is why so many people fly domestic?

------
beltex
_" Should mention that a battery pack upgrade is not coming soon for the Model
S, but it obviously will happen long-term."_

[https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/548269323681529856](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/548269323681529856)

~~~
cloudwalking
Most likely the Model S already has many of the battery advancements that are
now coming to the Roadster.

------
spodek
Someone somewhere is reacting with "We must further prevent them from selling
in our state!"

Actually, probably fifty people like that. Or rather organizations.

And they'll work as hard as they can to keep this from consumers.

~~~
acangiano
Don't you love the "free market until it actually creates competition for us"
model?

~~~
ams6110
Don't you love government regulation of the market until it affects something
I want to buy?

~~~
hnnewguy
> _Don 't you love government regulation of the market until it affects
> something I want to buy?_

Precisely. Would Tesla even exist today without government subsidies? Nope.
For that matter, neither would GM or Chrysler.

Why are the majors seen as "evil", and Tesla as "good"? I don't understand
that narrative whatsoever. I just want good electric cars, and couldn't care
less who produces them.

~~~
enraged_camel
Because in almost any market, incumbents do everything they can to prevent
newcomers from establishing a foothold in the market. A current example of
this is the proxy war the established automakers are fighting against Tesla
via their dealerships, who are pressuring their local politicians to ban Tesla
from selling directly to consumers in various states.

>>I just want good electric cars, and couldn't care less who produces them.

The world would be a better place if people cared about who is producing the
stuff they buy, and how.

Just a thought.

------
sz4kerto
"The original Roadster had a drag coefficient (Cd) of 0.36. Using modern
computational methods we expect to make a 15% improvement, dropping the total
Cd down to 0.31 with a retrofit aero kit."

I wonder how's this going to affect the generated downforce (=> and, as a
consequence, the aerodynamic grip). Cd for a F1 car is around 1.

~~~
tacos
My Audi A6 has a Cd of 0.26. Comparing it to F1 makes no sense. They're open
wheel.

~~~
clamprecht
Not only are they open wheel, but they have intentional downforce that exceeds
the weight of the entire car.

~~~
wmeredith
They also have 600 horsepower and pass a gas station every 45 seconds :) Why
compare?

~~~
dripton
Current F1 rules do not allow in-race refueling. But, yeah, expensive purpose-
built race cars have little in common with road cars.

~~~
threeseed
> But, yeah, expensive purpose-built race cars have little in common with road
> cars

I wouldn't say little.

Many F1 technologies have made it into production road cars and the future of
the sport will see this technology sharing increase. That's why there was the
big engine change last year. And it wouldn't surprise me if their split
turbocharger design that was responsible for Mercedes success makes it into
their road cars.

------
finid
> ... we can achieve a predicted 40-50% improvement on range between the
> original Roadster and Roadster 3.0. There is a set of speeds and driving
> conditions where we can confidently drive the Roadster 3.0 over 400 miles.

That has been the range where I'll even begin to consider a car of that sort.
I'm seriously rooting for Tesla.

~~~
revelation
Because you drive 400 miles daily?

It seems you are stuck in a _go till empty_ mentality. You don't drive an
electric car until the battery is empty and then recharge. You plug it in at
home and wake up to the battery charged to the same level every day. You'll
actually save time not spent at a gas station in everyday use.

~~~
baddox
It doesn't matter all that much what your average daily drive is, if you have
several road trips a year where an EV's range is prohibitive. That is, of
course, until the EV saves you enough money over a full-time gas car that you
can afford to buy or rent a spare gas car for your road trips. Or until
charger or battery hot swap stations are everywhere.

~~~
ams6110
This is a good point. Early model range was still too low (I have days where I
end up driving a couple of hundred miles on little advance notice). But given
a realistic (not some next-to-impossible "ideal") 300-400 mile range, in most
cases when I need more than that I know about it far enough in advance to
arrange a rental. That also assumes that total cost of ownership is lower by
enough that it's practical to use rentals as a "second" vehicle and still come
out ahead.

------
ktzar
It'd be awesome to get the old batteries adapted to be used in off-grid homes,
where they could be of great use.

~~~
greglindahl
Here's an example of SolarCity/Tesla using new batteries like that:
[https://gigaom.com/2012/04/17/tesla-solarcity-quietly-
sellin...](https://gigaom.com/2012/04/17/tesla-solarcity-quietly-selling-
building-battery-projects/)

------
NDizzle
I wouldn't think that a roadster is the correct vehicle for LRR tires. I had
them on my 1st gen Insight and they are terrible, terrible things from a
performance point of view.

~~~
maxerickson
It could be a thing where they choose a tire that maintains sufficient
performance at a lower rolling resistance.

~~~
ams6110
A Tesla (especially a Roadster) is a performance car though. Extreme LRR tires
are not what most buyers are going to want.

------
PinguTS
Tesla is a very good example of making good PR without anything specific new.
They say, that they offer a performance package for an old model. But what is
the real truth behind?

1\. Improved battery performance:

Everybody knows that batteries degrade over time. Batteries have to be
replaced after some time. Batteries have a memory effect including Lithium
Ion, even when the industry wants to tell a different story.

Tesla is still offering replacement batteries for the Roadster. Because, if
they would not, they would have a marketing problem. Tesla now decided to
source the new cells in those battery packs. Which is a normal business
decision, because the original battery pack was engineered at 2005/2006\. That
is almost 10 years ago. As such it is a normal business decision to source the
new cells instead of sourcing the old cells with lower demand (increased
prices). Reminder: any carmaker supports their car models >10 years.

2\. Improved tires:

Tires are improving year by year. The tires are not from Tesla. They are
sourced from Godyear, Pirelli, Conti, or alike.

I have to replace my tires every 3 to 4 years as they are loosing their
condition and are not fit for the roads anymore. Of course, I always choose
the latest the version with the latest technology. That is a thing of ongoing
business.

3\. improved body (CW):

That is something you normally buy from some third party supplier, like AMG or
Brabus for Mercedes, Alpine for BMW, … There is no such thing for Tesla, so
Tesla made it himself.

Disclaimer: electrical engineer with contacts from within the different
carmakers and other industrial markets.

~~~
zarkov99
Well, the improved range is pretty new, regardless of how they got there. 400
miles is ground breaking for an electric car.

