
Hacker's Guide to Tea - tony584
http://worldoftea.org/hackers-guide-to-tea/
======
oscilloscope
I tried to start a tea shop/hacker space in SF which failed spectacularly a
few months ago. Everyone, don't do retail!

Finding decent tea can be a challenge. Here are a few places to start looking
for tea online, and in SF:

<http://www.teaspring.com/> \-- Chinese Tea.

<http://www.redblossomtea.com/> \-- Chinese Tea from SF. Fantastic oolong and
Dragonwell. Check out their location next time you're in Chinatown.

<http://www.runa.org/> \-- Guayusa, related to Yerba Mate. The kids building
this company are true hackers!

<http://www.omshantea.com/> \-- A cool tea house in SF (mission). Learn about
Pu-erh and Jiaogulan here.

<http://www.yunnansourcing.com> \-- A place to try your luck and buy Pu-erh.

<http://www.itoen.com/estore/index.cfm> \-- Sencha, Gyokuru, Matcha. A solid
selection of Japanese Greens.

These places have great herb selections, and will make you realize how much
you're overpaying for mid-grade tea: <http://www.sfherb.com/>
<http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/>

I also love Korean tea, but don't have a good recommendation on where to get
it.

~~~
acgourley
Did you write up a post mortem anywhere? As a tea drinking hacker in SF it
would be an interesting read at least.

~~~
oscilloscope
I took over the Aroma Tea Shop on Polk st for 3 months earlier this year. The
biggest stumbling block was the landlord (a trust fund) dragged its feet and
eventually denied my sublease application at the end of the 3 months. With a
couple friends, we had been operating semi-discreetly during this time, but
didn't redo the banner outside and didn't do much marketing.

Since we left, it's been taken over by the boutique next door. They kept the
paint job and sandwich board sign we made.

That's about all I've got the energy to rehash-- but if you catch me in person
I'll tell you all about the folly of Polk Tea.

And here's some pics:

<http://kaimary.tumblr.com/tagged/tea>
<http://kaimary.tumblr.com/tagged/tea/page/2>

------
jasonfried
A wonderful place to get high quality greens: <http://www.hibiki-an.com/>

The best hot water kettle w/ temperature control I've found is:
[http://www.amazon.com/PINO-ST-8706-Digital-Kettle-
Pro/dp/B00...](http://www.amazon.com/PINO-ST-8706-Digital-Kettle-
Pro/dp/B001HC54O2)

I've tried every kettle and this one is the best. It's all stainless inside
too - water never touches plastic.

~~~
jasonjei
Hibiki-an is good, but you really have to try Ippodo. Once you've had Ippodo
tea, you really can't go back. They target mostly Japanese consumers, but
lately, they have been trying to push for more overseas sales. They've been
around since 1717 and were the personal tea purveyors to Prince Yamashita. Try
the Tenka-ichi, their top Gyokuro. It's difficult to prepare but completely
worth it. <https://shop.ippodo-tea.co.jp/shop/en/>

------
mrkurt
If you'd like to start drinking tea, I heartily recommend the Adagio
IngenuiTEA and sample kit to get started. It's dead simple to use and clean,
and their teas are really reasonably priced:
[http://www.adagio.com/gifts/holiday_ingenuiTEA.html?SID=094a...](http://www.adagio.com/gifts/holiday_ingenuiTEA.html?SID=094a8e6f6640eda7ad237ce0b678e4f4)

I'm a giant fan of their Spiced Green and Gunpowder green varieties.

Incidentally, if you're anywhere near Chicago they have a retail store in
Naperville where they'll brew up any of their teas for you to try. It's fun.

~~~
jakevoytko
I get most of my tea from Adagio, but I recommend Golden Moon Tea's starter
set: [http://www.goldenmoontea.com/gifts/tea-taster-s-sampler-
with...](http://www.goldenmoontea.com/gifts/tea-taster-s-sampler-with-l-
tremain-steeper.html)

It has 31 single-serving sample teas, and a teacup with a strainer. The
quality is reasonable, and the variety is spectacular. After finishing it,
you'll know which teas you enjoy. I took notes to remind myself which teas I
liked and didn't like, but it was worth it. Plus, I still use the teacup and
strainer!

~~~
etm117
Another vote for Golden Moon here. I have been using them for about 2 years
now. Good tea at reasonable prices. Plus when you buy the bigger sizes (once
you find the flavors you like in the starter kit) the leftover tins work for
random storage containers.

------
Throlkim
Being in the UK, I typically enjoy a substantial amount of tea during the day.
None of that poncy herbal tea though - stricly strong white tea.

The British Armed Forces are supplied with a particular brand of tea from
NAAFI (<http://www.ringtons.co.uk/shop/tea/naafi-tea>), which is now available
to the public too. I had it described to me by an ex-forces friend that 'it's
a tea to clean your gun with', but I actually find it to be one of the
heartiest and warming drinks I've had.

~~~
epo
Supposedly sell it in Spar too.

------
sbierwagen
Maybe it's just me, but maybe a "hacker's guide" to tea shouldn't contain wild
speculation on the health benefits of matcha.

And since everyone seems to be dropping recommendations for tea shops, then
I'll say I get my tea from Marketspice in Seattle, though you have to fight
your way through swarms of tourists to get there.

------
arethuza
This is a better guide to tea drinking, at least the British way of tea
drinking:

<http://www.nicecupofteaandasitdown.com/>

~~~
rmc
Gotta have some milk in your tea. ☺

~~~
silentbicycle
Not in green tea! It really depends on the variety.

Vanilla sugar can be nice, though, as is caramelizing sugar in a pot and then
whisking hot milk into it, then mixing that with flavored/spiced black teas
(masala chai, etc.).

~~~
5teev
I absent-mindedly put a drop of cream in some green tea once, and found it an
interesting variation and not bad at all!

~~~
gnubardt
yeah, green tea ice cream is great as well and contains lots of milk (and
sugar).

------
aplusbi
>If you are drinking something that did not come from this plant (chamomile,
mint, tulsi, rooibos, etc) it is not tea).

I hear this every once in awhile and at best it's pedantic and at worst it's
just wrong. What do you call chamomile tea? An infusion? Even if it is
technically wrong everybody calls infusions "tea" and I think it's safe to
argue that the word has evolved beyond the original meaning.

~~~
silentbicycle
"Tisane" is technically correct, though outside of a tea shop I don't think it
matters that much. When it's not clear from context, I just say "herbal tea".

~~~
KingOfB
I say the same, but technically I'm not sure it's any better as tea is an
herbal tea, but not all herbal tea's are teas... Ok, I'll stop.

It's the same as people calling tomatoes vegetables - technically wrong and no
one cares.

~~~
philwelch
"Vegetable" is a culinary distinction for plant matter eaten at dinner;
tomatoes are vegetables. "Fruit" is a biological distinction for plant matter
that contains seeds within an edible shell; tomatoes are fruits.

------
jasonjei
If you're a tea person like me and you've read Lu Yu's Tea Classics (茶經)
before, you'll appreciate good tea.

The one that I usually purchase is from Japan--and it is now orderable online,
including to overseas addresses. The tea purveyor is IPPODO (一保堂) and their
gyokuro (玉露) is some of the best. IPPODO has been around since 1717, so they
are likely to have a good idea, especially since they have supplied tea to the
Japanese king.

Gyokuro is a pleasant tea because its flavors are so subtle that it's not like
any green tea you've had. Theirs is very light yet sweet and full-bodied.
IPPODO's gyokuro, in particularly their Below Heaven tea (天下一) or Tenka-ichi,
has a savory flavor that almost tastes a bit like nori.

<https://shop.ippodo-tea.co.jp/shop/en/> <http://www.ippodo-tea.co.jp/>

~~~
wyclif
Here's what a can of Tenka-ichi looks like: [https://shop.ippodo-
tea.co.jp/shop/en/images/goods/g00010217...](https://shop.ippodo-
tea.co.jp/shop/en/images/goods/g00010217_a.jpg)

~~~
jasonjei
Beautiful. And if you have 70,000 yen or $840 US to burn:
[https://shop.ippodo-
tea.co.jp/shop/en/images/goods/g00010294...](https://shop.ippodo-
tea.co.jp/shop/en/images/goods/g00010294_a.jpg)

------
pigbucket
The true principles of tea-drinking were enumerated (there are eleven) and
explicated in antiquity (defined as the golden time before my birth) by
renowned tea expert George Orwell. I can personally attest to the veracity of
Mr. Orwell's first principle; namely, that one ought to drink only Indian or
Ceylonese tea, on the grounds that "one does not feel wiser, braver, or more
optimistic after drinking" the Chinese variety. (It was after a nice cup of
uplifting Indian tea that Orwell bravely and wisely wrote the optimistic
_1984_.)

<http://orwell.ru/library/articles/tea/english/e_tea>

------
DanielBMarkham
I'm off the tea habit now, but the best investment I made was getting a
variable-temperature water kettle. Just set the temp and let it worry about
getting it right. Plus it keeps the water at that temp all day long -- no
screwing around with pots and kettles and such for your third cup.

I also took a great liking to white tea: expensive but worth it (in my
opinion). At first I really liked the heavier oxidized teas, but I found that
my tastes went greener and greener the more I experimented.

Drinking tea is a wonderful habit, and it's good for you too. I had to quit
for a while because of the caffeine. While less than coffee, I found it still
messed up my system.

~~~
soyelmango
These kettles that keep water hot all day long seem very wasteful to me.

That said, does anyone know if it takes more electricity to reheat water than
to maintain it at a given temperature?

~~~
tptacek
Partly anecdotally and partly empirically: I have a Wattvision thingy on my
meter, I use an electric kettle, and I cook lots of things sous vide (in water
baths held between 130-160f for _very_ long times). It appears to take
_drastically_ less energy to have a rice cooker keep 120 ounces of water at
150f for hours on end than it does to bring a kettle of water to a boil.

This makes sense to me. Watch the sous vide PID controller govern the rice
cooker; it's only switched on for a fraction of a second every 10 seconds or
so.

Water also has a high specific heat.

------
akaalias
Hm, I have to disagree with the steeping chart for green tea (after having
been doing it that way for 12 years).

Recently, I got some medium/high quality Sencha at my favorite place Ten Ren
down in Chinatown.

Lessons learned from their main man:

0\. Never use boiling water, but instead around 80-85 degree Celsius (okay,
that seems to be common sense) 1\. If the quality of the tea is so-so,
discharge the first steep after 1-2 seconds. High-grade tea needs no cleaning.
This step gets rid of the dust and ensures a clear color. 2\. First steeping
for maximum 1 minute 30 seconds. 3\. Second steeping for only about 40 (!)
seconds. 4\. Third steeping for about 50 seconds.

~~~
sgoraya
> my favorite place Ten Ren down in Chinatown.

Ten Ren is awesome - friendly folks who also educated me about how to prepare
tea and let me know that you could steep it multiple times (which was news to
me at the time since I only steeped once and then threw out the leaves).

Having since moved to Southern CA, I visit their store in Monterrey Park. Good
folks still, but I miss the charm of the Chinatown store.

~~~
akaalias
Yes, agreed. They're very friendly and humble. The quality of their teas
speaks for itself. I didn't know they had one in CA! A good tea dealer is
worth so much win.

------
mpotter
Great resource for tea beginners and experts alike: <http://steepster.com>

Discover new teas, get recommendations, and keep a tasting journal.

Disclosure: I'm a co-founder.

------
deutronium
If you ever go to Japan make sure to try Matcha, it consists of very finely
ground green tea leaves.

And seems to be very difficult to prepare! I brought some back to the UK, that
I'll have to try out soon :)

<https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Matcha>

One other thing I found pretty cool, in a Cafe, they would bring a sand timer,
to tell you when the tea in the teapot had brewed.

------
kadavy
If you're interested in the focusing-increasing benefits of L-Theanine,
Gyokuro, Matcha, and Silver Needle are all good teas to drink.

I get my Gyokuro & Matcha from <http://hibiki-an.com/>

Silver Needle I had a harder time finding, but I got them from
<http://chicagoteagarden.com/>, the tea shop of the OP.

Incidentally, they're both delicious.

------
steveklabnik
My group tends to drink yerba maté: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerba_maté>

~~~
mhartl
You might be interested to know that the accent on _maté_ is a
hyperforeignism. In Spanish, the drink is just _yerba mate_. The (nonexistent)
word _maté_ would be pronounced "mah-TEH", whereas _mate_ is pronounced "MAH-
teh"; presumably the erroneous diacritic was added to keep people from rhyming
it with _fate_.

~~~
mhartl
I just realized that _maté_ does exist in Spanish: it means "I killed"—all the
more reason to use _mate_ instead. :-)

------
prewett
I've been sampling a wide variety of teas over the past few years, and wrote
up a page describing flavors and steeping time, which is a little more
detailed (but not as broad) as the article: [http://www.physics.ohio-
state.edu/~prewett/archive/tea/tea.h...](http://www.physics.ohio-
state.edu/~prewett/archive/tea/tea.html)

------
KingOfB
Neat article. For those like me that struggle getting 170 degree water for
green tea, I found a good trick which is to just put an ice cube on top of the
tea, and pour the hot water on top of that. That prevents singeing the leaves
that can kill a nice cup of green tea. I find it a lot more reproducible than
'waiting longer than a minute'.

~~~
akahn
A good trick is to listen to the water boiling. At around 180°F the water
starts bubbling and dancing, gets a bit agitated and might make a resonant
sound in your kettle. I suggest using a thermometer and getting to know how
the water sounds at different temperatures.

Best place to buy tea: <http://uptontea.com/> Top notch quality, and they put
out a really good paper catalog describing all their hundreds of teas
quarterly.

~~~
silentbicycle
When I boil water in an open pot, I can usually recognize the different
temperatures by the way the water shimmers, the size of the bubbles, etc. Do
that a couple times with a thermometer, and you can probably eyeball it from
there.

I've heard the stages of boiling referred to as "dragon eyes", "fish eyes",
etc. See e.g. <http://www.veetea.com/site/articles/Water-Temperatures/> .

That said, my wife and I got an electric teakettle with a temperature setting
as a wedding gift, and we love it. That's another option. (This one, or a
similar model: [http://www.amazon.com/Choice-SmartKettle-Cordless-4-Quart-
El...](http://www.amazon.com/Choice-SmartKettle-Cordless-4-Quart-
Electric/dp/B001I1BH98/) )

------
samd
Try adding a few crushed cardamom pods to a pot of black tea, they add a
fantastic flavor. Milk is of course required.

~~~
silentbicycle
Also: cinnamon and peppercorns. And, heating the spices _in_ the milk (perhaps
an even mix of whole milk and water) infuses the flavors better. (Half-and-
half or heavy cream, if you're making chai ice cream. :) )

Star anise and licorice root also make good herbal teas.

------
afterburner
I didn't know about L-theanine; this goes a long way towards explaining why I
feel like tea helps me "stay awake" for longer, compared to coffee which seems
to fail me after about a half hour, despite it usually having more caffeine.

------
timinman
Great article. We love the tea here in Northern Ireland, and our impression is
that most off-the-shelf bagged tea here is of very high quality in comparison
to the US. We're drinking lots of 'Punjana' these days.

~~~
barrkel
The problems I, as an Irishman, have when visiting the US are (1) frequently a
kettle isn't available, and instead, in offices, you often have a supply of
"hot" water at perhaps 95C, which isn't hot enough for good tea, or you have
to jerry-rig something out of a coffeemaker with similar issues only even more
tepid; and (2) American tea bags average about 2g of tea leaves each compared
with an average of 3.125g in UK / Irish tea bags.

So these days, I bring a travel kettle with me, and usually my own supply of
tea. If I must use tea bought locally, I use twice the regular amount to
compensate.

~~~
zbyszek
When I moved to the US from the UK a decade ago, I went to the shops to kit
out my apartment and fondly imagined that the country that put men on the moon
and invented the internet would have some kind of amazing high-tech laser-
powered robot super-kettle. I was disappointed when the only kettle I could
get looked like something from the 1970's.

Should have gone to Japan.

~~~
timinman
I could be wrong, but I think part of the reason electric kettles haven't
caught on big in the US is the lower voltage. One of the first things that
caught my attention over here (Northern Ireland) was that the kettles boil so
fast. It's incredibly convient.

------
wazoox
Not bad, but would be better with temperatures indicated in reasonable units
:)

~~~
eru
A reasonable unit of temperature begins at 0K and makes the numeric value of
the Boltzmann constant 1.

~~~
InclinedPlane
If I did my math right, that would make the best temperature for steeping a
green tea somewhere around 2.63E25 degrees.

~~~
eru
That'll be 26.3 yotta-degree.

------
rue
I like Earl Grey with milk and honey. Does that make me a pragmatic…kettler?

~~~
barrkel
I wouldn't drink Earl Grey with milk. Earl Grey has a strong perfumed aroma
from the bergamot orange; I might add lemon to it, but not milk. Milk goes
best with strongly steeped black tea because it takes an edge off the
bitterness.

------
nborgo
As if there aren't enough suggestions on where to buy tea, I get all mine
through SevenCups (<http://www.sevencups.com/>) and TeaSpring
(<http://teaspring.com/>). Both companies are excellent. SevenCups has a few
very nice sampler packs.

I've been kind of annoyed how long TeaSpring has been out of Bai Mu Dan,
though. It's is incredible. They specialize in Chinese tea. So if that's your
thing, check them out.

------
fakelvis
In 1980 the British Standards Group produced a document, _Method for
Preparation of a Liquor of Tea_ , setting out the British Standard method of
tea brewing. This was BS 6008:1980.

ISO Technical Committee 34 (Food products), Sub-Committee 8 (Tea) later
created ISO 3103 from this.

You can see the documented process at Wikipedia:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_6008>

It's an interesting read and won the Ig Nobel Prize for Literature in 1999.

------
mmcdan
It's technically true that tea is only made from the camellia sinensis plant,
but you can get the same experience from other "hot, tea-like drinks" as well
such as Herbal and Rooibos "teas".

Please take a look at <http://www.theteafinder.com>. It's a tea search engine
that I made after getting motivated reading HN a few weeks ago! You can search
for tea by flavor and health benefit.

Would love feedback from other tea-drinking hackers.

~~~
eru
> but you can get the same experience from other "hot, tea-like drinks" as
> well such as Herbal and Rooibos "teas".

I wouldn't call it the same experience. Herbal teas and Rooibos are fine in
their own rights, but not as substitutes for the camellia sinensis plant.

Try stinging nettle. It's awesome.

~~~
sixspeed
Wonderful! We have a large lush growth of Stinging Nettle behind our barn
every summer. I'm looking forward to brewing some up next year.

~~~
eru
The taste varies quite a lot between dried and fresh nettle. I like dried
better, but you should try both.

If you are into nettles, there's also the world nettle eating championships in
Dorset.

------
BSousa
<http://www.hibiki-an.com> is where I get most of my tea (Japanese green tea
only). Shipping from Japan to Europe takes about a week to arrive.
<http://www.nbtea.co.uk> in the UK is also a good place for tea (various types
from various locations) but I still thingk Hibiki-an's tea better quality.

------
ErrantX
Does anyone know a good UK (or EU) based tea supplier?

~~~
drtse4
Have these in my bookmarks, haven't tried them yet <http://jingtea.com/>
<http://www.cantonteaco.com>

~~~
ErrantX
Brilliant, thanks. Jing Tea looks like a winner, I'll give them a try and let
you know. :)

~~~
jroos1
I'll second both of those UK companies. Jing has great stuff (a little
pricier) and I've personally worked with the people behind Canton Tea Co.

BTW I'm also a founder of Steepster

------
RobertKohr
<http://www.harney.com/> Harney and Sons is my favorite.

I love their english breakfast and their earl gray.

Their chocolate tea: [http://www.harney.com/Chocolate-Tea-Loose-tea-by-the-
pound/p...](http://www.harney.com/Chocolate-Tea-Loose-tea-by-the-
pound/productinfo/41613/) Is is delicious, but man does it raise your heart
rate!

------
matylda
If you're ever in Boulder, the Celestial Seasonings factory tour is worth
checking out: <http://www.celestialseasonings.com/visit-us/free-tours.html>
The Peppermint Room will clear your sinuses for a week.

Anyone have other tea factory tours they'd recommend?

------
eduardoflores
I would recommend The Book of Tea by Okakura Kakuzo. It's a great introduction
to eastern culture for westerners taking tea as link and guide. Despite it was
published in 1906 it's interestingly both actual and dated.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Tea>

------
sgallant
If you want to watch a great documentary about tea growing and making check
out All in This Tea.

<http://www.netflix.ca/WiMovie/All-in-This-Tea/70095114>

<http://www.lesblank.com/more/TeaFilm.html>

------
vixen99
'The more oxidized the tea leaves are, the hotter the water temperature should
be when steeping'.

The author assumes his readers do not know that white, green and other teas
differ from each other thanks to their processing but assumes they do know the
oxidation level of the tea they are about to brew.

------
latch
Caffeine is very soluble. You can quickly decaffenate tea by "rinsing" it, or
more accurately, throwing away the first, short, steeping.

In other words, if you want to remove the caffeine, leave your teabag in 1/2 a
cup of water for 30-60 seconds, dump out the water and then you are good to
go.

~~~
tony584
this is not 100% true: [http://chadao.blogspot.com/2008/02/caffeine-and-tea-
myth-and...](http://chadao.blogspot.com/2008/02/caffeine-and-tea-myth-and-
reality.html)

------
tjakab
I mostly buy from Adagio, but have also found some great teas through Harney &
Sons (<http://www.harney.com>) and Teas Etc. (<http://www.teasetc.com>).

------
taylorwc
If you're interested in white tea (and you should be from a health benefits
perspective), check out the teas at www.shangtea.com - they ship it and it's a
family run business with a family farm in the mts in China. All organic and
delightful.

------
Perceval
Here's a good short piece on tea drinking from the _Obsessives_ series by
Chow.com: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9zT5VZKHI0>

------
devmonk
For those interested:

<https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Theanine>

and there are supplements available if you don't want to give up coffee.

~~~
silentbicycle
L-Theanine is a surprisingly under-appreciated nootropic. If you buy it as a
bulk powder, it's quite cheap.

Good Japanese green tea (senchas, matcha, etc.) seem to be particularly high
in theanine. It contributes quite a bit of flavor to the tea.

~~~
gwern
I'd agree with theanine being under-appreciated. I used to drink a ton of tea
- no problems, nice stimulant. So when I decided to mix & cap all my
supplements and drop the whole tea thing (more work than a pill and not
especially portable), I simply bought a few hundred grams of caffeine.

What could go wrong? Caffeine was what I was getting from the tea, right?
Turns out caffeine alone makes me somewhat twitchy & anxious and is distinctly
inferior to tea (caffeine+theanine). If I could cap them again, I'd definitely
make sure to add in theanine.

------
MikeCapone
If you're in Canada, you might want to check out <http://www.teaopia.ca/>

I just stumbled on their store in Ottawa, and it seems pretty great!

~~~
MikeCapone
Also, if you're looking for the PINO Digital Pro kettle in Canada, this place
has it: <http://www.49thparallelroasters.com/storeAccessories.html>

Amazon.com will ship here, but I'm not sure what kind of import duties that
would mean...

------
DanI-S
Jing tea are great - <http://jingtea.com/>

Their 'tea explorer' set is a nice introduction to various types of tea from
around the world.

------
bkudria
See also: [http://home.fazekas.hu/~nagydani/rth/Russian-tea-
HOWTO-v2.ht...](http://home.fazekas.hu/~nagydani/rth/Russian-tea-
HOWTO-v2.html)

------
docgnome
For those in the US Den's Tea offers great Japanese teas.
<http://www.denstea.com>

------
kesun421
I always start my day with a hot cup of pu-erh or jiaogulan. It is said both
has cleansing effect for the digestive system.

------
AmazonV
A lot of information packed into a clear post for new to tea drinkers, thanks

------
davidj
I loved drinking tea, but I recently stopped when I found out that green and
black tea have a large amount of Fluoride, highly toxic to the human body. I
drink just hot water, or one tea bag split between a whole tea pot, or coffee.

Edited: Fluoride is NOT a heavy metal. and spelling

~~~
krevis
Citation please. Assuming you meant Fluoride: it's neither heavy nor a metal.

~~~
davidj
Yeah I screwed up, Fluoride (the correct spelling), which is a form of the
ELEMENT Fluorine IS NOT a heavy metal like I confusingly thought.

But a simple google search will show you that Fluoride is highly concentrated
in black and green tea.

