
Show HN: Websites and Apps Built Without a Single Line of Code - swinto
http://builtwithoutcode.com
======
throwaway2016a
I often feel like there is an opportunity for a hybrid model. Build the app
"without code" but then pay to download the code and customize it to your will
/ deploy on your own infrastructure.

Not saying this would happen with this company but if you don't own the code
you are just (as another poster put it) renting your app. If the company you
are renting from goes under or raises their prices you are out of luck and the
cost of recovering might actually be higher than the cost of having just used
a traditional platform in the first place.

Not saying I don't believe in those systems. I was one of the founding
engineers at a company that did WYSIWYG website creation tools in the early
2000s (think Squarespace only not). I just think customers need to be aware of
the concept of vendor lock in and data portability.

Edit: another important point is time to market. If your intent is to use an
app like this to prove product market fit before going out and building
something custom that might make a lot of sense depending on your use case.

~~~
levonterteryan
What you say makes sense. But that just makes the subscription model of those
platform obsolete. Bubble does offer an option to host the app on dedicated
infrastructure but it will be still runnin on bubble with a paid subscription.
Another thing is - bubble promised if they ever go out of business and shut
down they will make their code open source so that everyone can continue
running their apps built on Bubble using their own servers. It sounds fair
enough to me.

~~~
nbar1
Yeah... "promised"

Consider the trend we're seeing where a company is acquired and ultimately
shut down. Those "promises" are (likely) no longer even the founders decision.
What happens then?

Edit: it may also be a good idea to disclose that you're the founder/CEO of a
Bubble partner.

~~~
levonterteryan
Agree - disclosing that I'm the founder of Bubble certified partner. Been
working with them for a while and they really do a great job creating a no
code community. Agree that in case if they get sold the decision is no theirs
anymore to open or not the source code. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

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startupdiscuss
So close.

I really want something like this but not quite this.

In my mind you have a visual builder like this that puts out maybe some
bootstrap code. (Jetstrap or Bootply).

Then the back end is already hotwired up to something like Django/Rails with a
database, hosted somewhere like DO, VULTR etc.

And you can move any of these pieces around, so you can move from DO to VULTR
or move databases from Postgres to Mysql, by clicking a button.

You have access to all the code.

It works pretty much like bubble but out of open sources tools that are
cobbled together and you have the access.

~~~
beaconstudios
hi, I'm working on something similar to Bubble myself - what makes you say
that you want such a tool to generate open source code?

~~~
startupdiscuss
Well, the big issue with any of these is that you invariably find yourself
needing that one feature so badly.

"Here is your site!"

"Great, let's add authentication."

"Cool, do you want to login with Google, Twitter or Facebook?"

"Github..."

"Ooh, add it to the list..."

And then you're waiting. This doesn't just happen once, it happens constantly
on all kinds of things you need. This way you can go in and change it around.

You already have a nice CSS pattern, you just drop it in.

~~~
beaconstudios
oh hey, I just realised it was you - I tweeted you about getting in touch
previously.

Yeah this is a big focal point for v1 - providing an avenue for developers to
write in any features that aren't natively provided in the editor. I'm
currently playing around with a "code view" that shows you the compiled,
unminified version of whichever component you're working on and allows you to
modify it directly. The plan is to save those modifications as a diff that can
be re-integrated when the component is built. Obviously it's not quite as
simple as that but my hope is that the editor will be able to gradually add
new workflows for missing features but without constraining developers.

~~~
startupdiscuss
Looking forward to playing with it.

One thing everyone wants to avoid is lockin. I have the feeling now that if
AWS raises prices, I can go to Azure. If Postgres adds some new RestFul
feature, I can switch to it.

If I have to use your solution for the long term, and you are charging for it
(which, of course, you should), I don't want to be bound to that solution
forever. What if you sell the service and the buyer shuts it down?

~~~
beaconstudios
Yeah I totally agree - in no way should your company's software be dependent
on the continued existence of my service. My thinking on this is that the
service I'm offering needs to be sliced up into opt-in units - $X/month for
the builder, cost-plus for hosting and scaling, gateway fee for ecommerce and
so on. That way, companies that want to scale out can mix and match the
offering as they choose. I am somewhat concerned that someone could build most
of their app and then export the code and cancel, but as I'm still building
out the MVP I'll leave that for later :)

~~~
startupdiscuss
Don't be afraid of that, you should be happy to have that as a service and
encourage some people to do that if they want. I think 98% of the people will
end up exporting their code and not using the service. It will be free. But it
will make your service famous and the few people who do pay will be loyal.

You can't do everything well. If the main thing you do is an MVP producing
service, that is great.

Add on to that. You might end up adding a whole different set of services such
as paying for user feedback or user analysis or something else.

Edit: Just to be clear - I don't mean to advise you on what the service should
or should not be. I just mean that it will evolve in ways you may not
anticipate. The market will pick and choose what it wants. The things you
initially think are small might turn out to be more profitable than the things
you initially think are big.

~~~
beaconstudios
I'm not really aiming for an MVP service in the long run though - I want to
enable people to scale out their idea into a full product without having to
export and start coding. I also don't think I would be keen to build this as a
completely free (or effectively free) service, as this is going to be a big
project and I want to scale it out into a business.

I don't want to lock in users either though, so I'm aiming to find a good
point where the product provides enough value that users would prefer to keep
using it over exporting and coding.

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jMyles
Poking around, I don't immediately see spelled out the benefit: what is the
advantage of building "without a single line of code?"

If the complexity of the app is the same, won't it be just as involved to
build with this alternative interface?

~~~
icebraining
Reading their marketing page, seems like they have a visual programming
language that lets users build custom workflows using high-level components.
Seems useful - there's plenty of demand for websites that are "smarter" than
what a CMS with a few plugins allow you to build, yet are not complex enough
to require the full power of a turing-complete language. It's a bit like Excel
for the web.

The Achilles' heel of these platforms tends to be the edges; when user needs a
bit more than what it can provide out-of-the-box, can they extend it, and
without creating a monster? I mean, we build custom business software based on
a modular platform, and the story always goes like,

"We need a few POS terminals for a store." ... installs pre-built module ...
"And an integrated ecommerce store." ... installs pre-built module ... "And
the POS should integrate with an NFC reader to allow purchases with a shop
card." ... and then we present a quote for the custom integration.

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fiatjaf
I don't know if this makes sense, but I imagine a "visual website builder"
that works with components, like React Components.

Each visual part of the site, in each page, has a component. That component
may be just static text or image, or it can run code before rendering
something.

That should be enough to start.

~~~
fiatjaf
Technical support could also be given, in such a way that if each component is
independent and runs a small piece of code that is transparent to the user and
the developer who's supporting the user, it should be straightforward to help
users.

Since each component is independent, it should be clear to the user what he is
trying to do in that component specifically. Since it is clear, the technical
support could tackle that problem in no time.

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iMarv
The title is kind of misleading. The websites and Apps were indeed built with
hundreds of lines of code, and are being sold/are for rent on the given
platform.

I honestly do not see a big difference compared to other services which offer
you pre-built blogs, websites etc.

~~~
kalmi10
The linked [http://builtwithoutcode.com/](http://builtwithoutcode.com/)
appears to be a certified partner of the platform. For the actual platform,
check out [https://bubble.is/](https://bubble.is/)

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steve_taylor
It looks like this is just an affiliate marketing website. Links from this
website to bubble.is are affiliate links. The two sites have different domains
and different WHOIS info.

