
How to Make Billions of Dollars Reducing Loneliness - astrofinch
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/FCXCXigp7byv2dM8D/how-to-make-billions-of-dollars-reducing-loneliness
======
jrumbut
Something that goes unquestioned in this article is that you want to live with
people who are like you down to the same taste in video games. I find this not
to be true for me, and that I find it easiest to live with people that are
different enough that you end up needing to use kindness to relate to each
other.

After having felt isolated in my previous living situations, I'm now in a
complex where we all hang out in the parking lot most afternoons. I'm a
software engineer, my neighbors include bus drivers, clerks, landscapers,
those who have no visible means of support, etc. It's a nice relaxed
environment, which I don't experience when people who are too similar are
around.

This is a problem with a lot of matching systems, sometimes similarity isn't
desirable.

~~~
badrabbit
Sometimes? How about almost always!

The whole "loneliness epidemic" is a result of people stuck in bubbles with
other people like them.

Being compatible and being alike are not synonymous. What people will admit
they like and what they truly like are not always the same thing either.

Think about it,why would someone like your own self make for good
companionship? You already have your lonely self,why would more of what is
like you be less lonely?

I have a very strong opinion on this matter: _Symmetrically_ different people
make for a compatible companion. As in the old "opposites attract",but with a
requirent that the opposite attributes are symmetic which means they
complement and complete the other.

~~~
joey_bob
Can you think of a significant stretch of time, before the advent of the
loneliness epidemic, when people were any less stuck in their bubbles? Unless
we've only just discovered loneliness, there can't be much of a correlation
between loneliness and bubbliness.

I think your argument about symmetrically different people being compatible is
probably accurate, but this points to happiness in the bubble. A bubble is
really a collection of people who perceive the world with the same basis, more
so than share all the same opinions. Since the bubble shares a basis, there is
more likely to be people in that bubble that are truly symmetric to you on the
substituent axes of the bubble's basis, than say a person in any other bubble.

There is an underlying assumption to my argument, that opinions within the
bubble are somewhat uniformly distributed along each axis, but this has been
the majority case in any bubble I've been in.

~~~
badrabbit
I mean certainly a bubble in some form is always present and it always causes
societal issues. It just happens to be more precise and effective at isolating
you thanks to modern tech.

Before the internet, you exhaust the pool of available people pretty fast due
to difficilty of communication. If you want to talk to someone you had to know
their phone numbet and you may not know much about them outside of hear-say.
Your bubble maybe the area you live in and the activities you enage in but
discovering new people meant having to spend a significant amount of time in
person interacting with someone. You may know they live somewhat within your
bubble you don't get to message them for a while and checkout their various
social media profiles.

I think of "Sienfeld",even thou they exaggerate a bit on that show,all the
people they meet,date,work with are all within the same social bubble. But
they still had to go on dates or interact with people in person before getting
to write them off. If that was today, George Costanza would hardly get a
tinder match and even then he'd write off those women after a message or two.
Or he may use a more bubbled app.

I am just saying communication has gotten a lot easier which allowed us to
build better bubbles. Loneliness isn't new but the effectiveness of our
bubbles are much better than in the past.

------
mcguire
" _...especially in the Bay Area. ... But there 's a palpable lack of social
fabric. I worry that this atomization is becoming a world-wide phenomenon –
that we might be some of the first generations without the sort of community
that it's in human nature to rely on._"

Are we talking about a general problem, or about a group of 20-somethings who
grew up with families, went to college where they had a lot of free time with
a bunch of others in the same situation, and then moved hundreds or thousands
of miles to a place that puts emphasis on lack of ties, short terms, mobility,
and long work hours?

'Cause I can assure you that most of the lonely people in the world can't
afford $100 per month for a friend network.

~~~
sjg007
The most lonely are old people I think.. but the ones that live in senior
housing tend to do a lot better. Kids in college also do well since they are
among their peers.. One idea to push this forward is mixed use housing.
Parents want to find other parents so their kids can play. Teenagers likewise.
So you need all ages in your little "village".

~~~
bhl
Kids in college are also lonely; I go to a school with a relatively large
undergraduate populations. The result is that many people have trouble finding
friends given that interactions are less frequent. Dorms and free time do
help, but in the first week there were a lot of posts asking others on how
they made their friends.

------
kart23
Adult fraternities. More commonly known as secret societies or just clubs.
Theres already a few of them, but I believe it's pretty uncommon to be in one.
Make em so they can choose who to accept as well, something at least slightly
exclusive is better for everyone in the end. It can really take any form, a
clubhouse, house where some people live and others just come to hang out, etc.
But what's really important is a space that a smaller group of people feel
comfortable in, responsible for, and feel a strong connection to the other
people in the group.

~~~
hokumguru
On an anecdotal note I joined my local Freemasonry lodge a year ago and while
it’s definitely not universally inclusive I definitely find extreme value in
the connections I’m forming.

Freemasonry in general is dying - it had a large spike in membership after
WWII and Vietnam as soldiers found connections and brotherly love abroad (in
the lodges all enlisted men were equals regardless of ranking) but in the
decades since, convincing young men to join the brotherhood is difficult. I’m
in my mid 20s and I’m the youngest member by 20 years

Edit: I should clarify that FM isn’t as secret-society as the media makes it
out to be. It’s a great social club to meet a wide variety of other people
over dinners and outings with a strict ban on all talk of politics or religion
(an extremely welcome escape in today’s climate)

~~~
secabeen
My understanding is that the high point of social club membership was in the
late 1800s through WW2. Before 1840, urban population was under 20%, and
people couldn't get to the cities. Until 1950, under 10% of homes had
Television. In that period, between 1840 and 1950, people were close enough
together and transportation was available, but entertainment options in the
home were more limited (radio was available, but not until the late 1920s). As
such, men (and it was largely men), wanted things to do in the evenings and
after work, and social clubs were where a lot of that happened.

------
dglass
For remote workers in the Bay Area that deal with the added loneliness of
working from home, Out Of Office[0] hosts weekly popup coworking sessions at
different locations around San Francisco. It's a great way to get out of the
house and meet other people while getting your work done.

[0] [https://outofoffice.app/workclub](https://outofoffice.app/workclub)

------
Arete314159
A good roommate situation can be fine, but a bad one can be terrible. We've
got to have other options.

Current internet connection tools encourage you to stay on your screen. You
could easily design a system that nudges folks to actually get together in
real time. Let's say you've been chatting via messenger for 10 minutes. Then
you get a popup that says, "{name} is actually only x blocks away -- why don't
you continue this over coffee?"

Meanwhile, a real-time idea could be apartments or houses with shared common
areas. I miss the common rooms of college where you just happen to run into
people. We could do that again as adults without the 9-act dramatic operas
that happen when you share too much living space with folks. There's such
thing as a happy medium.

~~~
acidburnNSA
Yeah. Developers are motivated to maximize number of properly-priced units in
a building. Common spaces are usually not the highlight. Maybe if there were
lounges on every floor (just like in dorms), and a bigger common space on the
top floor that encourages coffee-shop ambiance but with more opportunities to
spontaneously interact, that could be pretty neat.

This way, every unit is still self-contained and you can stay isolated if you
want, but you can just as easily go read in the lounge.

~~~
astrofinch
Why not have the common space on the bottom floor and make it an actual coffee
shop? Then you're no longer working against developer incentives. I guess it
would need to be mixed-use zoning.

~~~
jamesknelson
Living in Japan where mixed-use zoning is the norm, there is often a small
local bar within walking distance from where you live that can fulfill this
role. This has been one of the best parts of living here for me, I can’t
imagine going back to the western world where zoning and local government
often makes local meeting places effectively illegal.

Something makes me wonder if this is part of the reason Japan is so safe, as
well. If you’re first choice for drinking is a place where everyone knows you
and lives nearby, you’ve got a much greater incentive to behave than if you
need to drive to the other side of the city. Not to mention that it reduces
drink driving, and combined with public transport, makes it possible to have a
zero tolerance on drink driving policy.

------
spookybones
A simple solution would seem to be an OKCupid clone that is strictly for
friends and perhaps another for roommates. It is very good at aligning mutual
interests and proximity and giving a sense of personalities. I see a large
untapped market for older people as well. Unlike RL, you know going in that
anyone on there is looking for companionship, which considerably reduces
awkwardness.

~~~
jfk13
If it's a simple solution, why hasn't someone built it?

I suspect that any such product that starts to get a significant user base is
quickly overrun by people looking for cheap hookups, on the one hand, or
"sugar" relationships (at best) on the other.

~~~
manmal
One could discourage cheap hookups by steering online interaction. Eg by not
allowing any picture uploads, and having very detailed questionnaires.

~~~
adventured
It's impossible to successfully steer that (to stop most of that activity).
Forgo a native image service on Reddit and you get Imgur. Don't allow picture
uploads on the platonic service and people will take care of the problem, they
will route around it trivially. You will quickly be right back to people
trying to turn it into a dating service. It's too easy to go around.

The best you can probably hope for is to swim with the current. Otherwise it
will drown you. Set up a section just for dating to better contain the
inevitable pressure in the system.

------
petercooper
I'm only slightly facetious here, but Twitch and the video gaming industry are
already making billions reducing loneliness.. :-)

~~~
izzydata
I'd like to suggest that they are making it worse. We used to play games
together on the couch, but now we can be alone in our houses watching
strangers instead. Social media in general is making us all more lonely while
tricking us into thinking we are interacting with others.

~~~
odessacubbage
what's the last non-fighting game that even had couch co op?

>Social media in general is making us all more lonely while tricking us into
thinking we are interacting with others.

it really feels like maybe we were too successful in solving boredom. why
would anyone strike up a conversation at the bus stop anymore when they have
instant access to their ingroup and their preferred dopamine drip? the age old
wisdom of 'just go ahead, you're not bothering them' is essentially
meaningless now. i have apps for networking and finding clients, i have apps
for hookups and maybe even relationships, but where do i go just to make a
friend who doesn't want sex or business?

~~~
thesorrow
Apps want to do too much. Maybe we need apps that let us do our part as human.
I don't want to have every match possible presented to me but I'd love to have
a notification saying "5 friends down your street are actually going out and
are okay to include some new people. One of them loves 80's synth music just
like you". After that you decide but you'll have the opportunity to get true
IRL interactions...

------
hackbinary
Start dancing. I started swing and jazz dancing a couple of years ago. The
community is awesome, and you get to meet loads of people. There are regular
events all over the world.

------
starpilot
I just can't go back to a roomie situation due to having a cat (most of those
places forbid pets) and wanting to bring girls over without asking for
permission and having awkward introductions. The freedom of my own pad is
worth the occasional isolation pangs.

~~~
proverbialbunny
I have room mates (by choice) and one of my room mates has two cats and brings
a person or two over every other night. He's super extroverted. I'm pretty
introverted so I like my privacy. Not once has this extroverted room mate
bothered me by bringing one or two people over, though I do have a cat
allergy, so I've had to learn to hiss just the right way to speak cat enough
to let them know not to walk into my room.

~~~
starpilot
That's true, you can have very tolerable roommates. Then again, to women
there's definitely an added appeal to a guy who has his own place, especially
when you're over 30.

~~~
proverbialbunny
It depends on the culture. I'm female and I don't care, but then again I have
room mates so I might be biased.

------
personjerry
My understanding is that our body systems have feedback mechanisms. But the
system is complex. One system is this loneliness mechanism that values long
term attachments and repeated communal interaction, and makes us feel lonely
if we don't get them. But the other system is more immediate -- validation and
entertainment trigger dopamine releases for a small happiness boost on the
spot, i.e. with social media. And like a Goodhart's Law sort of scenario (i.e.
metrics eventually get optimized for and cease to be meaningful) we've gotten
really good at optimizing for that dopamine hit without all the other
variables that would typically be associated with that validation. For
example, perhaps when these feedback mechanisms were developed, you'd
typically be physically in person, interacting with and being validated by a
community, and hence the anti-loneliness system would've worked in tandem with
the dopamine system. So we've actually actively gamed our bodies' systems for
the cheap feel-good, and now we pay the price of long term loneliness.

------
proverbialbunny
imho loneliness is a systemic problem caused by a lack of understanding of
what a friend really is. To demonstrate this, if you walked around and asked
random people, or people you know, what a friend is, what is the odds they
will answer correctly?

An acquaintance is someone you see in passing and have had a few conversations
with. You know a bit about them, and hopefully enjoy their presence. Facebook,
as far as I can tell, encourages building networks of acquaintances.

A friend, on the other hand, is an acquaintance you've gotten to know, but it
turns out both of you want to one-on-one spend some time together. Catching up
from time to time, or just hanging out. Whatever it is, both enjoy each
other's presence enough to hang out outside of parties or meetups or whatever
it may be. This usually comes from finding common hobbies but can be found
through other methods. Sometimes I just like hanging out and watching a movie
with people. Everyone has their preferences.

imho this is where American (and possibly Western) culture is failing atm.
Many people like the acquaintances they know, but are unaware they can ask to
hang out and spend more time together. It doesn't come up as a valid option
for many people.

From there, there is degrees of friendship. Is it once or twice a year
catching up, or is it someone you want to hang out with once or twice a month?
This is often how circles of friends are created. When someone knows multiple
people they want to hang out with once a month or less, it becomes easier to
create group get togethers. I host movie nights, but go to gaming nights with
people. It turns into that sort of thing.

At the end of the day, to have friends, you have to be a friend; you have to
take that step of asking people to hang out or catch up. You have to be
proactive. Otherwise, how will they know you like their presence? In a world
full of people who do not know they can pull people into their social world,
the few who do have an easy time choosing their friends and setting up their
friend networks.

Not being lonely is important. Loneliness is the single largest precursor to
depression. For many knowing how to gain friends is enough to curb or even
remove their depression. For others there are other causes, which is why
depression is such a complex subject.

Now you know what it is and how to do it. Now you have no excuse. Go make some
friends! ^_^

------
therealmarv
It's not about roommates alone. Many people like myself don't want to share
space but enjoy going to a local coworking and having a community there with
people who do stuff also outside work. I've found some real friends there.

------
blisterpeanuts
There's also the notion of getting married and raising a family. When you have
children, you almost automatically become part of a new social network that
you may never have even been aware of before: parents. You suddenly have a lot
in common with other parents and it's not unlike being part of a special club.
And of course it's the most fascinating hobby there is.

It's somewhat ironic that not so long ago, we were pretty much all married and
making babies by age 20, and now we tend to stay single through our 20s while
strategizing ways to avoid becoming lonely.

------
lifeisstillgood
In my twenties I tried (a couple of times but not really tried) to live in
communes / large houses of more than 12 people

It worked ok ish most of the time but I honestly think it is a significant
part of the answer - as cities become more crowded just chucking people
together to work it out has many positive benefits - child care sharing is
easier at some life stages, meeting others, community activism and so on all
seemed to flow naturally.

Along with Barcelona style super-blocks I would recommend communes / high
density households as a good option

~~~
jborichevskiy
Out of curiosity what made it ok-ish? What were the biggest pain points? I've
been tempted to try it myself.

~~~
lifeisstillgood
Housing costs - it's expensive finding that big a location and weirdly there
is a sort of flip point (in London) where more people stopped reducing the
delta cost per person if that makes sense

moving from "just house mates" to "we need some rules as a community" starts
all sorts of "oh I don't know if I really want to think of it this way" \- and
the sort of people who really want to be in a commune with rules turn out to
be the sort of people you would not want to have ... earnest and unemployed
(see housing cost)

I think "house mates" is a good level to live at - probably for most life
stages to be honest.

And we could easily redefine a village (cluster of cave dwellings / Skara Brae
/ babylonian houses) to be the same house - it was for many ages for many
parts of the world one thing we could call a structure

~~~
jborichevskiy
Makes sense, thanks for elaborating. Agreed on the housemates level- living
with roommates I am also good friends with seems to have been my best living
arrangement so far.

------
dahdum
Roam.co is essentially out of business, but having spent several weeks in
their Tokyo property it was a great experience. Always someone around to chat
or eat with.

Tokyo has a large number of Sharehouses built and managed by the full stack
businesses the author mentions (along with smaller co-op styles). Roam Tokyo
rented a floor of a sharehouse building which had regular tenants, coworking
space, conference rooms, and a large commercial style kitchen.

The model definitely works well enough in Japan, including many with a mix of
natives and expats.

~~~
brunooo
Hey, Roam founder here - we’re actually just switching our business model from
fake tech company to a more equitable real-estate approach and thus phasing
out unsustainable leases. More on that more publicly in about 1-2 months.
Thanks for living with us in Tokyo and the kind words tough!

~~~
dahdum
Hi Bruno, I wish you the best. I’m going back to Japan for a couple months
this winter and going to miss the Roam experience so much. Most sharehouses
don’t do 2-3 months.

Both the community managers were fantastic. Looking forward to see your new
business model!

~~~
brunooo
Thank you, truly appreciated. Both Marika, and I assume Krystal, are
incredible humans.

The WhatsApp group is still going strong, so at least there’s an informal Roam
for the time being - Marika is working on a coworking space at the moment, so
there should be a home no matter where you end up this winter.

And yes, looking forward as well, thanks again!

------
ScottFree
Adult sport leagues. These are very common in Europe, but are fairly rare in
the US.

------
geargrinder
John Vervaeke - Awakening from the Meaning Crisis
[https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vuh3f0P5qjrS...](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vuh3f0P5qjrSdb5eC1ZfZwWJ)

~~~
javert
It would be helpful to actually give a short explanation of what you are
linking to, rather than a bare link with the title.

~~~
igammarays
The Meaning Crisis is John Vervaeke’s term for the Western breakdown in
religion, community, family, and ultimately a “meaningful life”, which he
traces back to various uniquely Western historical factors. It’s not just an
analysis, however, as he makes a heroic attempt to reassemble what was lost
with religion, without religion.

Really profound lecture series. Opens your eyes to what we’ve actually lost in
the modern world.

~~~
javert
Are you saying he presents a new theory somewhere around item 27 or 28 in the
playlist? Because prior to that it looks like a survey of Western philosophy,
just judging by the titles of the videos.

------
carapace
People don't sing together as much as we used to.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
Folk song societies are great. Someone else mentioned ballroom dancing.
Wonderful activities that take us out of our technology mindset and engage
different parts of the brain.

------
mbar84
Print version, if you're into that sorta thing:
[https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a89qnbm9tsr0hf6/AAC-
VxKRjH76D_K94...](https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a89qnbm9tsr0hf6/AAC-
VxKRjH76D_K94We7YQUka?dl=0)

------
caser
In a city like NYC, the only people you really see regularly are the people
you live with, the people you work with, and the people you sleep with.

Finding good roommates is definitely one way to solve the problem, but if
you’re not knee deep in a community with a strong sense of values and culture
(like EA), finding matches can be challenging.

Also, as someone who has been in and around this space, several of the
coliving companies you mentioned are _not_ doing well financially.

Especially in NYC, all of the coliving spots (some of which have raised
significant capital) have almost all their inventory in deep Brooklyn or
Queens. It’s nearly impossible to find a good share in the city unless you
stumble into it or create it with friends, which depends on having a wide
network of people who have leases ending around the same time (or who are
willing to break leases). Also, much of the good housing inventory is either
taken or overpriced, so part of this also depends on either having wealthy
friends or finding a way to finagle a deal on a place before it hits the
market.

Last thing I’ll say is that one of the reasons why people only see roommates,
coworkers, and partners regularly is because of lack of religious / school
affiliation. It’s hard to get people to commit to something weekly, but if you
can do it, it’s way easier to spin up than coordinating a group house.

The past few months I’ve been doing a weekly Monday breakfast with 2 friends
—- it’s quickly become the highlight of all of our weeks.

Other than, I think the best choice is to find (or create) something that
you’re willing to commit to at least 1x per week. Finding a spiritual
institution (even an agnostic friendly one like humanist society or Unitarian
church), picking up a martial art, or auditing a course at a local grad school
(this is my recent fav) are all ways you can find more depth in city life.

+1 for the idea of community porn, though. 1-off events just aren’t the same.

~~~
in3d
What’s EA?

~~~
jamesrcole
I think it's probably referring to
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_altruism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_altruism)

------
JohnJamesRambo
Started out great and then started talking about roommates and became an
advertisement for the roommate matching service. I don’t think that is the
answer to loneliness.

~~~
TomMarius
For me it was _the solution_ to loneliness. I was never so happy as I am now
with roommates. I used to think I prefer to live alone, not really anymore. Of
course that is anecdote, but IMHO it helps some groups of people.

------
paulpauper
It seems like there is an obsession with loneliness as of late. I keep seeing
articles on the front page that talk about it. I guess it's a big problem now.

------
paggle
This should be an add-on to companies like Tinder. People will provide a lot
of data in the interest of finding a romantic or sexual partner. Tinder could
say “sorry about that bad date but here’s this guy you might like living
with!”

------
HNLurker2
Oy vey lesswrong

------
dagnysdildo
If you're lonely, adopt a dog from your local animal shelter. A cat is fine,
too.

~~~
slang800
Pets are not a replacement for human interaction.

~~~
jogjayr
I've noticed that I have far more conversations with strangers when I'm out
walking my dog than when I'm out by myself. I've also made acquaintances with
the regulars at the dog park. Pets aren't a replacement for human interaction,
but they can help facilitate it.

------
ada1981
It’s fairly easy to build a community of friends.

Also, things like Ultimate Frisbee are free -/ we play every morning in
Brooklyn’s Prospect Park; when I was in Palo Alto / SF we played a few days a
week; and I even built a league / scene from scratch in my hometown of Erie,
PA 20 years ago.

~~~
ada1981
The downvote on this comment is a strong signal.

------
alexashka
This is a way to scratch your left foot when your right foot itches.

The way to alleviate loneliness, is to do meaningful work. Meaningful work
will inevitably involve other people.

It's not loneliness so much as being so fucking bored, because everything that
took up your time in the past centuries, has now been automated, and you're
sent to prison for 10+ years to break your spirit as early as 3 years old.

You send children to school where they have no autonomy, have to sit quietly
and memorize stupid bullshit through their entire childhood, and then wonder
why they go nuts in all kinds of unpredictable ways.

We're not meant to do stupid bullshit we see no value in doing our entire
lives. What's a roommate gonna do to alleviate that? Just skip roommate, try
heroin to forget this shit existence and plunge into a world of bliss.

~~~
majewsky
Like so many comments on the internet, this would've been great if you had
stopped one sentence earlier.

