
Is there any data that says secondhand car seats aren’t safe? - luu
https://www.marketplace.org/2019/11/14/is-there-any-data-that-says-secondhand-car-seats-arent-safe/
======
wahern
> As recently as October 2018, Target’s trade-in website claimed, “Used car
> seats shouldn’t be sold or given away, since they expire every six years and
> regulations change constantly.”

This hints to at least _one_ good reason: so defective designs or models don't
linger too long. Similarly, manufacturers have an interest, a priori, in
discouraging a second-hand market to limit their exposure if and when any
defects are found, especially if they lead to injuries. Of course, the most
important reason is almost certainly because planned obsolescence leads to
more sales.

> Instead of destroying 500,000 used seats over the years, Target could have
> safely marketed them to emerging markets. They would’ve sold, and many
> children would be safer because their parents had access to a secondhand
> market.

Hahahaha. That would never happen. The optics would be horrible, both
domestically and internationally. Such a good deed could never go unpunished.

I think drug companies do dump pharmaceuticals near their expiration date into
cheaper markets. But the drugs aren't actually expired, and they're certainly
not used. Interestingly, AFAIU the expiration date for many drugs is also
largely pulled out of thin air; they often retain their potency for many years
after the supposed expiration date. OTOH, _proving_ efficacy can be more
difficult and _risky_.

~~~
georgeecollins
Yeah but did you ever read the chapter of Freakonomics about car seats? Car
seats improve children's chance of injury over every case except the one where
kids sit in the back seat with an old fashioned seat belt on. Compared to
that, car seats perform about the same. (Note: I get that an infant can't use
a regular seat belt.)

It's true that car seats have been great for safety. But a lot of that (if not
most) is that it forced parents to put their kids in the back seat of the car
(much safer) in most cases and always secured by a belt. The idea that a newer
car seat has some magic safety improvement that is say, more important then
the difference in safety between a mini-van and a two seat sportscar is a
fallacy. If you are worried about your kid being safe in a car, put them in a
minivan and have them sit in a car seat in the middle back. Even with an old
car seat that is very safe.

~~~
drtillberg
For families with 3 children, the child car seat requirement generally pushes
them into a minivan because you can't install car seats 3 to a row, so you
need an extra row. And then you still max out at 1 friend instead of 3,
because even a minivan won't seat more than 4 child car seats.

It's also not magic getting your children into a car seat. It takes time, the
angles are awkward, and when parked on a busy road it often exposes parents to
traffic. I've only heard of 1 fatal accident through where a parent was struck
by a car (sideswiped) while fiddling with a car seat.

~~~
mrfusion
I have a crazy theory that car sizes (and prices) are what are limiting the
number of children people have.

It would be ridiculous to try to transport a five child family these days.

~~~
lotsofpulp
I would go with lack of parental leave, decreasing income security, stagnating
wages, student loan debt, enormous healthcare expenses, and need for dual
income households as well as being in school for longer periods of time to
secure good jobs over car sizes and prices.

Not to mention minivans exist and aren’t that expensive compared to cars.

------
niknikson
Huge kudos to the author for taking the time to investigate this issue.
Interestingly in the book Freakeconomics from 2005 they did an analysis on car
seats and found that after 2 years of age they don't make much of a
difference. During their study the came across the same type of behavior from
child seat manufacturers - ignoring requests for information.

~~~
jzl
The Freakonomics guys are notorious for using shoddy research, jumping to bad
conclusions, and generally publishing provocative conclusions just for the
sake of provocativeness that don't hold up to even a whiff of debunking. I
rolled my eyeballs through the entire book.

Good rebuttal of the car seat story here, with lots of links:
[https://thecarseatlady.com/freakonomics-fallacy-an-
economist...](https://thecarseatlady.com/freakonomics-fallacy-an-economist-or-
a-pediatrician-who-would-you-trust-to-keep-your-child-safe/)

~~~
Retric
‘The car seat lady’ looks like a rather biased source. Which does not mean
their wrong.

This is one of the few unrelated looks into the topic and it shows relatively
minimal benefits. Likely still worth it, but less critical than generally
perceived.
[https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_levitt_surprising_stats_abo...](https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_levitt_surprising_stats_about_child_carseats)

~~~
NLips
That’s a terrible talk! In particular, why on earth is the car seat moving
forwards in the crash test? Most car seats I’ve seen are essentially bolted to
the rest of the seat. Is this a Europe / USA thing?

~~~
Retric
It’s common for car seats to be attached to a seat belt which adds some play.
From a random manual, page 16 gives an example using seat belts:
[https://images-na.ssl-images-
amazon.com/images/I/D1xDQvLJ3iS...](https://images-na.ssl-images-
amazon.com/images/I/D1xDQvLJ3iS.pdf)

The LATCH system is seems to be bolted on, but not always used. It’s still
going to bounce in a crash as the seat cushion has a lot of give under these
forces. Further, in terms of real world companions you need to understand
people don’t nessisarily use safety equipment correctly especially if it’s
more time consuming. Comparing LATCh attachment vs seat belts is a whole other
discussion.

~~~
dragonwriter
> It’s common for car seats to be attached to a seat belt which adds some
> play.

Proper installation with a seatbelt involves engaging the retractor so it has
basically no play at all.

It's true that improper installation is quite common, though.

> The LATCH system is seems to be bolted on, but not always used. It’s still
> going to bounce in a crash as the seat cushion has a lot of give under these
> forces.

A forward-facing seat using LATCH should usually be installed with three point
LATCH (the third is over the seat back), so without much play in any
direction, certainly not forward.

Two point LATCH can move up-down and side-to-side a bit, but still not
forward.

~~~
Retric
The 2 point LATCH system is attached below not behind the car seat’s center of
gravity, so under heavy acceleration it depresses the car’s seat cushion and
rotates forward then bounces up and back. Minimizing this is the reasoning
behind the 3rd attachment point.

~~~
dresstotheleft
In forward facing child seats there are the two latch buckles as well as a
tether anchor that runs over the top of the seat.

------
codeulike
It was suggested to us (can't remember where from) that a second hand car seat
might have been dropped or damaged in some un-noticable way and so would not
be as strong as it needed to be. So it wasn't so much about expiration dates
as it was about knowing what had happened to that particular seat. I was
kindof unconvinced by the idea of unnoticable damage* but then its your kids
so you shrug and fork out for a new seat.

That said, in the UK there's plenty of second hand car seats changing hands
via ebay etc.

* incidentally I've heard the same thing said about bicycle helmets, which use similar materials (plastic, polystyrene)

~~~
cellular
I can't imagine how a dropped car seat could break. All the ones I've seen are
made from very very strong plastic.

~~~
o-__-o
Weaken internal structures down to a microscopic level that ultimately renders
the car seat weaker to handle a major accident

~~~
jeffdavis
I guess we go straight to the factory to maintain a chain of custody?

~~~
Slartie
Let's use a blockchain for that!

------
analog31
I've conveniently blotted the details out of my memory, but nowadays you have
to go through multiple car seats per kid, because there are different types
for different age groups. Multiply by how many kids you have. Multiply by how
many cars you have in your family.

Truth be told, there are plenty of secondhand car seats out there. For one
thing, they get handed down from one kid to the next within a family. For
another, relatives and neighbors share them.

It's like any secondhand item... something could always go wrong.

~~~
shantly
They're also supposed to be in them until they're 10 or so, these days. You're
likely to go through 3-4 seats per kid—infant (often also a carrier), toddler,
then either a larger car seat and later a booster or a convertible booster
that can do both.

And yeah, you absolutely hand them down to younger kids. Throwing out old car
seats is nuts and not something people actually do unless 1) they have more
money than you know what to do with, or 2) the seat looks like it's in bad
shape or reveals on inspection that it's damaged or deteriorating, or 3) you
just don't know anyone who could use it.

~~~
conanbatt
A 10 year old in a car seat? Thats ridicolous!

~~~
snowwrestler
Even _adults_ would be safer in a car seat like the ones kids sit in, if
anyone would be willing to use one.

If you scale up a toddler car seat, it looks a lot like the safety seats in
race cars or fighter jets: the seat wraps around the outside edge of the body
and upper legs; the head rest wraps around the sides of the head with padding;
the restraint straps have a 5-point attachment system.

~~~
newshorts
Do you have a source for this?

~~~
bluGill
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-
point_harness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-point_harness) you can
follow links for more...

------
aurizon
An almost perfect racket, the product has a low intrinsic cost and a long life
- how can we make them obsolete? Kid based FUD is sown all over their web
pages and package inserts, and we all love kids - right?

~~~
TeMPOraL
I'm currently buying a new seat for our kid (as she's outgrowing the second-
hand one we had before). Even with ISOFIX and i-Size standards in the EU, it's
an ordeal. The space is ridiculously overcrowded (just how many variants of a
car seat can one make?!), seats themselves are near-impossible to compare
against each other, and every site keeps reminding you that your kid's life
hangs on your purchase. And then there's car compatibility issue - we just
discovered that even though our Xsara Picasso has ISOFIX mount points, it
doesn't accept the support leg (because of floor-level storage compartments)
and seemingly doesn't have a top tether mounting point either. One has to
wonder why they even bothered to add the ISOFIX mounts in the first place.

At this point I'd gladly pay $100 or more for some expert to just recommend a
safe seat for our car. I already wasted much more than that on research in
terms of opportunity cost.

(please excuse the rant)

~~~
newshorts
Just ask reddit...

That’s how I found our car seat. I was looking for safety and fit, but also
what people seemed to like the best. Forums are great for stuff like this.

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sjg007
Seems like the FTC should get involved for deceptive marketing...

------
ceejayoz
I'd happily use a second-hand expired set from a trusted friend.

Off something like Craigslist, I'd worry about it having being in an
undisclosed car accident.

~~~
dehrmann
Are the forces in an accident strong enough to damage an engineered car seat?
It's already protected by crumple zones, and I'd expect the car seat to be
more robust than the occupant.

~~~
ceejayoz
NHTSA says yes. [https://www.nhtsa.gov/car-seats-and-booster-seats/car-
seat-u...](https://www.nhtsa.gov/car-seats-and-booster-seats/car-seat-use-
after-crash)

Same thing for bike helmets - after a serious shock, they should be replaced,
even if there's not visible damage.

~~~
dehrmann
Fair enough. I buy it more for bike helmets, though, since there's a good
chance that helmet hit road or metal.

~~~
cbo100
And in an accident a car seat has all the force transferred through just 2-3
points of contact with the seat belt or isofix points.

I would replace my kids seats after any accident with airbags or pretensioners
firing.

------
brusselssprouts
Evenflo has a car seat that is designed to last 10 years. This seems pretty
reasonable, after this point I assume you'd want access to the latest
technology and safety standards, and plastics do age some over time.

[https://www.evenflo.com/gold/](https://www.evenflo.com/gold/)

------
silencio
This doesn't take into account seat maintenance and daily use, it feels like.

We have two car seats with 9 year expirations. The older seat is almost 3
years old. I doubt it's going to make it past 5-6. My first kid has had diaper
blowouts, vomiting episodes, messy eating episodes, potty training accidents,
and more - all into the same seat. It's looking pretty grungy.

I'm pretty paranoid about following manufacturer instructions for cleaning,
but I know plenty of parents that bleach and steam clean and generally don't
follow instructions for car seat care.

Gently used seats that were well taken care of - those should absolutely be
reused, and you don't have to get into developing nations to find someone that
can use it. But not all seats, honestly - especially not with how much we as a
society are using car seats nowadays. My almost-3 year old is still rear
facing in a convertible seat that should last her at least another year.

~~~
PeterStuer
Old colleague of mine used to put the (small) seat in the dishwasher with the
top shelve removed.

------
sideshowb
Yeah, so I was never really sure what a new car seat would gain us in our
_second hand car_...

And this from someone who just spent good money replacing the rock and roll
bed in a campervan to improve seatbelt safety for the little one. A chain is
only as strong as its weakest link.

------
dragonwriter
Age may or may not be a problem, but several of the people I know that have
sold car seats have done so specifically because they were replacing them
after they were in a vehicle collision. (Which probably also involves
insurance fraud, since insurers will pay for that but require—easily
faked—evidence that the seat has been rendered unsaleable, e.g., photo of it
with the straps cut.)

Now, maybe they were all being excessively cautious in the replacement, but...

------
acd
I recently sold a car seat just to learn about the second hand age of cars
seats matter.

But the environment matter a lot too. There ought to be crash test by
government agencies comparing new and old car seats.

Similar trend with children carriages. Shifting from sturdy iron constructions
towards light weight aluminum materials. Difference being iron construction
lasts long good for the environment, aluminum one to two children buy and
throw.

~~~
HenryBemis
> There ought to be crash test by government agencies comparing new and old
> car seats

Knowing how corporations rule the USA, the moment a government agency will
start doing this testing/comparison, the carseat manufacturers will start
lobbying (or as we know it in the rest of the world: "bribing politicians to
preserve and increase their profits"), and we will most likely not see any
solid results.

Knowing Sweden and how they value life over $$$$, my money is with them
instead of a shady "Carseat Media LLC". It looks like it's fearmongering "hey
what is more important? $500 or the life of your child?"

------
Digory
This is about minimizing litigation risk, from the manufacturer side and the
parent side.

The manufacturers want to limit their exposure to any one design. If this
year's cost-saving design unexpectedly doesn't work, they want to budget and
cut off liability.

And, as a parent, if the seat is poorly designed in a way that it ever harms
my child, I want to be able to sue the manufacturer.

------
whoopdedo
> so long as a seat hasn’t been in a crash or otherwise doesn’t exhibit any
> damage

That seems a sufficient reason not to accept a used seat from someone you
don't know. Another reason for concern that wasn't mentioned is needing to
know if the product was recalled.

Upshot being there's likely no reason to throw away an older car seat. You
probably still don't want to shop for one at a yard sale.

~~~
underwater
What kind of non-obvious damage could a car seat suffer in an accident?
They're fairly simple devices.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Internal structure damage reducing effectiveness in future impacts.

There are shock stickers shippers use to verify if shipments have exceeded
certain shock thresholds; car seats with a similar feature would allow for a
second hand market (as data shows car seats should be safe to use for 20-30
years, if they haven’t been exposed to stresses from an accident).

You just need enough customers to ask for it, or regulation.

~~~
jakobegger
What kind of "internal structure damage" would that be?

Most car seats aren't really that complex, and when you take apart a car seat
(eg to wash the cover) you can see all the "internal structure", and it would
be very obvious if something was damaged in a crash.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Stress on the plastic structure, which usually isn’t exposed even with the
cover off.

Get a car seat from a moderate or severe accident, and cut it in half; you’ll
be able to see the damage from the forces involved.

~~~
sjg007
You should see stress marks on the plastic

~~~
jakobegger
Yeah, I'd really love to see pictures of a car seat that has enough "internal
damage" to be dangerous, without that damage being visible when you take the
cover off.

------
CodeWriter23
Having used a second hand booster seat for my daughter, I can testify sun
damage is a real thing. I could not pass it on in good conscience. And we
replaced it with a more modern and much sturdier version.

That’s not to say I think all seats should be summarily discarded after an
expiration date because some people (like me) don’t garage their car. I’m
saying there is some nuance to this choice.

~~~
jakobegger
A booster seat is just a piece of plastic that's supposed to raise your kid to
the correct height for the seat belt, right?

Does it really matter if the material is still sturdy in a booster seat?

~~~
PeterStuer
Our booster seats were just seat-shaped Polystyrene blocks with a cloth cover.
Worked perfectly fine.

------
leecarraher
They seem to not sell used baby gates at second hand baby stores either. id
guess for a similar reason and that being that they don't want to claim
liability in asserting the item was in original working order.

------
vectorEQ
“Used car seats shouldn’t be sold or given away, since they expire every six
years and regulations change constantly.”

tell me, how many of you are riding with expired seats? u criminals!

~~~
detritus
Apparently, as the moment, about 99% of people in Italy with car seats are,
due to some recently-introduced legislation.

The legislation requires some electronic alarm to prevent infants being locked
in cars, but apparently vendors aren't up to speed and the law was brought in
anyway,leaving everyone either breaking the law or not able to drive their
children... .

------
Amygaz
Just the fact that you don’t know its history, especially if that car seat has
been in a crash before, should be enough of a reason.

------
tssva
The explanation I have always heard is that car seats utilize EPP and EPS both
of which breakdown to some degree when exposed to UV light.

~~~
IndrekR
EPP (extruded polypropylene) and EPS (extruded polystyrene) are not exposed to
the sunlight in car seat's construction. Also, if those break down it will be
surface-first decomposition and very visible/noticeable.

~~~
tssva
In the car seats I had the EPP and EPS were in positions that they could be
exposed to sunlight.

------
crb002
Might be more safe as new models haven’t gotten recalled for defects yet.

