

Ask YC: Transition from College to Work Advice - notdarkyet

I have plenty of questions for you all, mostly because the backgrounds and positions that many of the users hold are similar the direction I would like to take.<p>A little info on me: I am currently a college student with roughly one year of school left. My major is Information Systems with a focus on web development.  My language experience is heavy in Java and C++, but have worked with COBOL, PHP, CSS, HTML, and some database work.  I am also about to begin to teach myself Ruby on Rails and then convert and move a side project of mine from PHP to RoR.<p>The problem I see, particularly when looking online for future jobs, is that most require a substantial amount of real world work experience, which I obviously lack.  Considering I attend a midwestern state school, I could imagine that an org. like Google is not going to hire me right out of college like they would a graduate from say, Stanford.<p>Ideally, I would like to be able to have one of my personal projects take off by that time so I could generate income from it, but the chance of having that happen when they are not even ready to launch yet is slim.  I really feel confused as to where I should look once graduation time comes around.  What suggestions do you guys have as to things I could do to improve my standing or the view employers have of me?  If it were up to me, I would like to work in a small up-and-comming organization rather than just be another cog in the machine and would rather code than do other types of work.<p>Also:<p>Do certifications help or matter when applying for jobs?<p>For web based orgs., what language has the most demand?  (Also, what would an employer ask of to prove that the developer is proficient in the language?)<p>What would be considered a "quality" portfolio?<p>What path or things you did after college would be helpful as well.  I would also consider freelance work, so anyone that took that direction, please say how you got started.  Thanks all!
======
dgabriel
What I did, waaaay back in 1996 without a college degree, is call a headhunter
in Boston. I had a job at a start-up company in two weeks, and all I needed to
get the job was the ability to spell "HTML" and "C". In two years, I managed
to triple my salary. All these years later, things are good. I didn't become a
dotcom millionaire, but I make an excellent living and I love what I do.

Your portfolio should consist of: one web app (in any language) you wrote for
yourself, not school. That one thing will put you head and shoulders above the
vast majority of candidates for any entry level programming position. I hire,
I know.

~~~
pg
_one web app (in any language) you wrote for yourself, not school_

That counts for a lot with YC too.

------
alex_c
I was often told this back in university, and you've probably heard it a lot,
but it's worth repeating: connections can be incredibly useful. Having been on
both sides of the interview table, I can tell you that having the
recommendation of someone already on the team can make a huge difference. It's
not enough, of course - you still have to know what you're talking about and
do well on the interview(s) - but having someone vouch for you that you are
reliable and not a psycho can give you the edge you need, especially if your
resume isn't outstanding. I think this can be especially true for small,
tightly knit teams - a middle manager at BigCo. might not even care who
they're hiring, but a manager of a small, good team will be more paranoid
about who they bring on board.

Working on personal projects is also great. It shows that you actually enjoy
what you're doing and you're not just going through the motions of getting
your degree and a job. If you don't think you'll have something to show with
your commercial projects, consider getting involved in an open-source project
- you won't have to develop the entire project from beginning to end, and
you'll get experience working in a large team which you can't really get by
working on your own.

Programming certifications... useless or worse than useless for a "small up-
and-coming organization" (at worst, they might be seen as a red flag that you
don't really know what you're doing and are trying to hide behind a
certification).

------
etal
First, find your school's career center. Every undergrad has the same problem,
and your school will try to help you get established -- look for an internship
this summer if there's time. Companies are wary of unemployed, inexperienced
twentysomethings, but they do like hiring right out of school, often.

You're allowed to list open-source projects on your resume. It looks good to
the people you'd want to work with. Give some indication of popularity, if
it's non-zero -- recruiters like having real data to look at. The main thing
they'll ask you about in the interview is you final project at school, so make
sure you feature it on your resume, and be ready to tell an exciting story
about it during the interview.

Big orgs are usually harder to join than small companies; they tend to waste a
lot of applicants' time in vetting. So don't worry about getting caught up in
the machine; it's avoidable. Small, newish companies are easier to join, but
harder to actually find and apply to. There are lots of recruiters floating
around on the web, such as cybercoders -- remember that programmers are in
demand, and there's a huge turnover rate in the first few years out of school,
so companies looking for people like you are always hiring.

Certifications are worthless if you already have a Bachelor's degree in CS or
IS. Sometimes they're helpful for straight IT/sysadmin jobs, but only if the
employer doesn't know what else to look for. A certification means you can do
that kind of grunt work, nothing more.

There's demand for every language in TIOBE's top 50. Yes, you can get work in
Lisp if you're looking in the right places. But be careful about whoring
yourself out too much right now -- if you establish yourself as a COBOL
maintainer, recruiters will want you to spend the rest of your career
maintaining COBOL systems. Java hiring seems very keyword-oriented, and that
makes me feel a bit like a rat in a wheel, because the keywords change every
year. Database knowledge will get you pretty far; Ruby and PHP have plenty of
demand. Also, there's a lot more programming work to be done than you'd think
-- web apps are only a tiny portion of it.

Your resume is what initially proves your competence in a language or system;
in the interview they may quiz you on some specifics and have you write some
basic code, but for an entry-level job, it won't be that hardcore. Remember
how to do some sorting, reversing, maybe data-structure traversal in C++ (no
library), and you're golden.

~~~
notdarkyet
Thanks for the reply, it definitely helps. The consensus seems to be that
certifications are not too beneficial which is nice know so I do not waste
more time this summer on them. The only reason I focused on coding web apps is
because my interest tends to gravitate towards that but I am open minded.

~~~
xenoterracide
I used Certifications to get transfer credit's out of classes. I Spent maybe
$1000 on Certifications where I would have spent $5000+ on classes. They are
usefull for low end grunt work though. And if you can get a really good one
like CISP or CCIE then they might matter. (both are really admin/networking
certifications).

------
len
Throw caution to the wind and move to the Silicon Valley. You will figure it
out here.

If you over analyze you will still be around your "midwestern state school"
worrying about finding a job where there are few.

~~~
notdarkyet
Believe me, it has also been a thought in the back of my mind. Any suggestions
as where to start if I went that route?

~~~
len
Start by finding cheap, short-term housing in the area (craigslist, personal
connections, or asking on communities such as this one).

~~~
notdarkyet
Thanks

------
bkbleikamp
If you lack real world experience, start building real world projects. If your
projects are not ready to launch, start working on them - pick the best one,
finish it, and start working hard on promoting it, monetizing it, etc. - that
is a) real world experience and b) the best chance for it to make money. You
kill two birds with one stone.

~~~
notdarkyet
Believe me I am trying but the time that is usually devoted to those projects
is only enough to allow for a balance between school/work/fitness/personal as
well. Lately though that personal time has been non-existent. Luckily, I only
have a few summer classes so I am hoping to complete the project which I think
will have the highest success rate this summer.

~~~
bkbleikamp
Even not having a finished product, just work as much as possible - have
proven code you can show companies, understand why it would work, understand
how it would scale, etc. and it will prove you can work in the real world.

Also start ups tend to look for smart people over someone with 20 years of
experience - if you kick ass at what you do, you'll get a job you want.

------
wave
<http://youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc>

~~~
notdarkyet
Thanks

------
edw519
Sounds like you're in a great position.

I would keep all my options open.

There are plenty of "entry level" jobs in IT. It's a matter of finding them.
Employers are interested in finding motivated people who can get the job done.
It's unlikely that you'd use much of your college experience in a first job,
but important to have some kind of on-line portfolio to show the you are a
builder, not a BSer. No one is going to nitpick any of your projects; they
just want to know that you can build stuff.

I would definitely think about building a web-based software business of some
kind. You can't lose. Either it will take off and eliminate the need for a
job, or it won't, but you will have learned much more than from any class.

Don't worry about the odds, the economy, or the competition. Just keep
plugging away, and most of all, have fun!

Keep us posted.

------
dnaquin
Certifications are useless.

~~~
notdarkyet
Really? Do you speak as an employer or someone who has applied without
success? It would be beneficial to know because I was planning to allot some
time this summer to get at the least Java certified, but if this is true I
wont waste any time.

~~~
tonystubblebine
They're useless if you want to work for a small company filled with talented
developers (a startup for instance). Most of those people will actually
consider it a knock against you.

If you want to work for a big company, certifications are still a plus. In my
experience though, having the right combination of skills is probably more
important for corporate work. I got my first job at MasterCard because I'd
used vi, perl, and mysql. Nobody cared that I wasn't great at any of them,
just that I could hit the ground running.

