
Ask HN: I’m already fluent in English. How can I improve further? - matanrubin
I’ve been reading, writing and speaking English as a second language ever since I was a kid. I can conduct hour-long conversations at work or when on holiday with native speakers without getting tired or feeling strained. I give presentations, tell jokes and would sometimes even speak in English because I find it easier to express my current thought in it. 
And yet it doesn’t feel like a mother tongue. I still feel some sentences are direct translations of the way I would say something in Hebrew, and that a native speaker would have said it differently. 
I’m also aware of my grammar not being perfect. Knowing which preposition to use is sometimes challenging.<p>So, how do I improve my English further? What’s the next step after reaching this level?
Obviously online classes wouldn’t do. The only option I could think of is living in an English speaking country, but that currently not an option.<p>PS this entire post was written without any help from online resources, so you can take that as my current level of English writing. If you spot out anything you might have articulated differently, it’d be great to hear! Thanks!
======
Baeocystin
Joseph Conrad is considered one the greats of English literature, yet his
sentence structure and flow is strongly influenced by his native Polish.

Would have he been a better writer if he had worked to eliminate this obvious
influence on form? I highly doubt it.

At a certain point, you have achieved native fluency. From there, what you do
with grammar and flow is up to you- the rules are not cast in stone. Borrow
what you think is best from any and all languages at your disposal, and knead
it in to English. If it works, we all benefit.

~~~
keiferski
French too. He spent a bit of time working for French ships prior to moving to
British ones. English was actually his third language, amazingly enough, which
just further solidifies your point.

 _On 13 October 1874 Bobrowski sent the sixteen-year-old to Marseilles,
France, for a planned career at sea.[15]:44–46 Though Conrad had not completed
secondary school, his accomplishments included fluency in French (with a
correct accent), some knowledge of Latin, German and Greek..._

------
DoreenMichele
My mother told me that watching TV in English made a big impact on her English
fluency.

 _Knowing which preposition to use is sometimes challenging._

Prepositions are one of the hardest things to translate. Sometimes,
translating it one way gives it a different meaning than you intended and
other times it really doesn't but wouldn't be the "common" usage.

To give an example, my sister was going on about people translating stuff in
the Harry Potter books, looking for hidden meanings, and she told me Voldemort
was French for "flight of death" and I told her "No, _de_ can also be
translated as _from_. I would translate that _flight from death_."

 _Flight of death_ is nonsense in English. It doesn't make sense. _Flight from
death_ has a completely different meaning and makes perfect sense -- Lord
Voldemort was trying to get out of dying. He was trying to escape his own
death. He was fleeing from death.

But if you are talking about someone's hometown, saying "Doreen, from
Columbus" or "Doreen, of Columbus" means the same thing and most people
wouldn't misunderstand it. De in French is often used that way as well and it
more or less doesn't matter which of the two English prepositions you use.

~~~
Jugurtha
"Vol de mort" can also mean "Theft of death", as "vol" is both "flight" and
"theft" in French. Now you have another problem.

~~~
Valgrim
Rowling has a strong french heritage and a degree in french literature. As a
native french speaker, I can assure you that this is a deliberate play on both
meanings: "Flight from death" because he is the one who escapes death, and
"Theft of death" because this is the way he kills his enemies (The Avada
Kedavra spells capture the soul of the dead into the wand)

~~~
Jugurtha
I'm unfamiliar with her work, but as a native speaker myself I figured the
word play was an opportunity too good to miss, albeit obvious.

------
TeacherRoss
Hi Mantanrubin,

I am an English teacher to foreign students and have a few at your level of
fluency. With these students I usually do custom classes using content from
literature, poetry and current affairs, mainly to get them using advanced
vocabulary and grammar, and then applying it to their own lives so that they
can discuss topics in detail in a variety of ways. Making sure to know when to
use colourful language, when not to, the perfect phrasal verb or idiom and so
on.

One of the other comments in this thread also mentions good fiction (Conrad).
I'd second that, as well as adding variety with more modern writers as well as
those of the classics. For example, a book like Satchmo (story of Louis
Armstrong's life written in his own vernacular - it's brilliant) is as useful
to your advancement of English fluency as is Conrad, Wharton, Louis Stevenson.
The thing to note with the classics is to find one or two you really enjoy (I
don't particularly enjoy Austin but I love others).

Additionally to literature you could read scientific material, listen to and
interpret hip hop and explain it to someone else, try to write poetry, speak
with young native speakers, speak with older native speakers and so on.

If you'd like to do a class any time you can also contact me if you'd like. My
vety basic website is teacherross dot com.

Good luck and keep going.

Ross.

~~~
omosubi
What are some ways you get people to use more complex structures and phrasing?
I'm a native English speaker learning Spanish and I struggle to get beyond
small talk when talking to native Spanish speakers

~~~
TeacherRoss
Some ideas would be to listen for, or create your own, long sentences with
multiple clauses (even if shorter sentences would be easier. Also by speaking
to different age groups, for example older generations tend to have many
colourful expressions that are not commonly used anymore. Apart from that, if
you wanted to get very complex you could ask someone to explain a difficult
subject matter to you, something they might have expertise in, e.g. something
scientific, their heritage, their thoughts on politics etc. Anything that
forces multiple clauses and deep consideration and revision of ideas.

In a very basic way, with my less fluent students I continually ask then to
explain their thinking behind an opinion... Why, why, why

And of course including more advanced material than their level dictates, to
push them harder and learn faster.

Hope that helps somewhat!

------
ganonm
I am going to suggest you watch a few episodes of 'Only Fools and Horses'.
It's an 80s sitcom set in Peckham, South London. The show is practically
considered a national treasure in the UK and most people who grew up in the UK
are very familiar with it.

The reason I suggest it is that it showcases a very particular dialect of
British English that many people struggle with (even native English speakers)
if they aren't familiar with it. The show was so popular in fact that many
modern colloquial British English phrases/words can trace their appearance to
this show, not because the show invented them, but because the show exposed so
many people to this dialect.

Some examples of words/phrases popularised by OFAH: dipstick, wally, cushty,
lovely jubbly.

See
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/onlyfools/lingo/](http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/onlyfools/lingo/)
for more.

If you want to master modern British English, check it out. It's also
hilariously funny.

~~~
stevekemp
I was going to suggest something similar; listening/watching English TV which
doesn't have the received-pronounciation.

Other good choices would be "Yes Minister" (original series), "Fawlty Towers",
and for extra-credit you should absolutely try to watch "Rab C. Nesbitt"
(which is set in Glasgow.

I'd suggest that Only Fools & Horses (after the second/third series) is pretty
understandable to all British people, but a lot more would struggle with the
Scottish accents.

Here's a brief sample, and another Scottish themed comedy sketch:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k7VoFiagfs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k7VoFiagfs)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMS2VnDveP8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMS2VnDveP8)

------
roadbeats
My biggest struggle is to sound like native due to lack of daily practice with
native speakers. There is not enough resources on this one while there are
plenty of resources for beginners / intermediate levels. In my native
language, I can comfortably phrase one sentence in multiple ways, make it
sound casual or less casual, while in English, I think I don't know enough
about making myself sound casual.

~~~
tirant
I wouldn't prioritize so much sounding as a native speaker unless you fear
discrimination that may affect your career or personal life.

Under my point of view I view keeping your accent as part of your identity and
something that makes you unique.

~~~
roadbeats
I used to appreciate to hear this actually. However, now I'm a father who
needs to teach his son speaking, and I feel that I'm not good enough.

~~~
mandelbrotwurst
Nothing to worry about there - he'll pick it up from his peers. You'd do
better to be sure he learns your first language as well.

------
shrikant
> The only option I could think of is living in an English speaking country,
> but that currently not an option.

Speaking from personal experience, I think all this will do is change your
speech patterns and modulate your accent ever so slightly.

You likely read/write English better than a native English speaker already.
Some of the language/grammar I've encountered from my English colleagues in
both formal and informal written communication is absolutely terrible, and I
attribute that to them "learning" English by way of speaking and "incorrect"
colloquial usage before perfunctorily running through their English lessons at
school.

~~~
eythian
> You likely read/write English better than a native English speaker already.

Kinda by definition this can't be correct. English is defined by what the
native speakers speak. It might be that sometimes how they say things doesn't
match up to how you were taught was correct, but it is likely to be correct
for their dialect.

~~~
JPLeRouzic
>> English is defined by what the native speakers speak.

What about regional accents? For a non native speaker of English,
understanding English as spoken in Scotland is a challenge. And I heard people
born in UK complaining they had sometimes difficulties with American English
(for example with real life/social things). This without speaking of people
from India who speak an English which is slightly different from US' or UK's
English (and equally valuable and "native").

So I guess a definition of "native speaker" is a bit difficult.

~~~
Maultasche
After I learned German for a few years, I lived in a region of Germany where
many people spoke in a dialect. At the time I thought I had a pretty good
handle on what was dialect and what wasn't. A good amount of dialect made it
into my speech anyway, since that's how the locals spoke.

Later I discovered to my surprise that a few of the words I had placed in the
"standard German" category were actually from the regional dialect.

I actually think it was more helpful to my language abilities to have learned
two different German dialects (one of which was standard German). It also
helped me to understand how languages change and what it must have been like
several centuries ago when there wasn't a standardized German and people had
to struggle to understand someone from far away area that in theory spoke the
same language.

------
miles
These suggestions from the University of Washington might help:

"Strategies for enhancing English language fluency: General fluency"
[https://www.washington.edu/teaching/programs/international-t...](https://www.washington.edu/teaching/programs/international-
teaching-assistant-program/resources-for-international-tas/communication-
resources-for-international-tas/strategies-for-enhancing-english-language-
fluency-general-fluency/)

------
jahn716
Many of already waded in so not sure I can add anything different. However,
here I go ;)

I guess for me the main question is, what do you mean by 'fluency?' Do you
want to speak/be thought of as someone from an English speaking country? Or is
it more a personal feeling that you want to _be better_?

For someone with an already high-level of English speaking and writing, I
think the remaining barrier is more cultural than language. Like can you
decipher common codes as someone who lives in the culture of that English-
speaking country. And from my experience, a lot of that is broken up into two
categories - 1. childhood identifications, things like education system,
curriculum; regional, national milestone events, etc.; and 2. pop culture
today, things like TV shows, current events, views on social, economics,
politics, etc.

I think it's easier for the US case just because how pervasive American soft
power is. But in any case, my feeling just from your post is that it's perhaps
really more culture rather than language that you want to focus on.

------
lordgrenville
The answer to your question really depends on what you need it for. Technical
or content writing? Work communication? Deeper conversations in your personal
life?

I think the most broadly applicable answer is to read the most famous English
stylists such as Gibbon, Carlyle, Arnold, or novelists like Austen, Eliot,
Henry James, etc. This writing is complex and sophisticated enough to be
challenging even to native speakers, but the vocabulary is still almost
totally congruent with modern English.

However, since you're posting on HN, I suspect you'd like a response from a
more technical perspective, in which case my answer is: read and write open
source documentation! Writing good docs requires complete understanding of the
terminology and concepts involved, as well as compositional skill and
precision. It's a great exercise which will improve your English, as well as
your understanding of the code you're writing about - and as a bonus you're
giving something back while you learn.

~~~
p1esk
_my answer is: read and write open source documentation_

I disagree. You need very little language skill to read technical docs if
you're familiar with the topic, and only slightly more to write them yourself.

------
tduberne
A lot of the advice given is good, but I would like to add something I did not
see: you can only be really fluent at a language you practice daily. I speak
three foreign languages fluently, and speak two of them daily (English and
German). I barely speak my mother tongue (French) with anyone else than my 3
and 1 yo. I am not really fluent at my mother tongue anymore, and my family
often makes fun of how I speak, which is often a straight translation from
English or German (and I apparently also have a German accent), with lots of
pauses to search my words. Of course, one week in a French speaking
environment and fluency is back.

What I want to say with it is: do not worry too much. Read, listen and speak
English with natives, and you will keep a decent enough level to gain real
fluency any time you get immersed in an English speaking environment.

------
achow
I'm also a 'non native' speaker of English and it has been my second language
from childhood.

For me the question is - for a global or a widespread language like that of
English, is there any characteristic which can be defined as 'native'. English
speaker from Scotland would sound very 'non-native' in Australia and vice
versa.

I would imagine for a languages like Mandarin or Russian which is spoken in a
particular geographical region with homogeneous population can have that
characteristic - "Spoken like a true native". But for languages like English
not so, same could be true for languages like Spanish and Hindi (3rd most
widely spoken - contained in a geographical region but spoken among very
diverse and non-homogenous population).

------
yetkin
Take some quiz for reality check. [https://www.merriam-webster.com/word-
games/vocabulary-quiz](https://www.merriam-webster.com/word-games/vocabulary-
quiz)

~~~
emalquier
As a French, half of the questions were about french words, which seem fancy
and very formal in english, but very basic in french ;) Couldn't make the
other half :D

------
anon9001
> I’ve been reading, writing and speaking English

Error! Missing oxford comma!
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma)

In all seriousness, your post reads better than most native speakers.

If you're writing something formal, and you're unsure if something is
technically correct, find a style guide you agree with and consult it. The
journalistic styles are intended to be clear:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_Stylebook](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_Stylebook)

There are many style guides:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_guide#United_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_guide#United_States)

When I'm struggling with a sentence, I make sort of a mental graph of the
sentence and apply rules (usually around commas, and mostly without thinking,
it just happens). I think it's because I was trained as a kid with these
diagrams:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_diagram](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_diagram)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_usage_controversies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_usage_controversies)
is a useful list. Most speakers are bad at one or more of these. I was never
able to train myself to pick out a split infinitve, for example, but I would
be able to if I were better educated.

Also, Grammarly is an AI thing that's supposed to detect and correct, but I
haven't used it. It's quite popular with the kids these days, so they'll
probably be dictating what "english" is if they get big enough:
[https://www.grammarly.com/](https://www.grammarly.com/)

You might also not want to speak perfect English. Most Americans certainly
don't. What I mean is, is that a "double copula" is technically "wrong", but
it does convey extra information and give a cadence and a degree of
informality. English has lots of little choices like that.

------
timmb
There is a lot of variation among native English speakers. The only thing that
sounds non native in what you wrote was “if you spot out anything”. I would
always expect “if you spot anything”. But the fact that other posters picked
up on different things suggests this could be regional variation (I’m in the
UK). I know people who have lived and worked here for a decade and still feel
they perform worse in a job interview in English rather than their native
language due to the extra cognitive load. On the other hand, my partner has
lived here about 10 years since she was a student and finds many things (e.g.
work stuff) she can express more easily in English while other things (how
she’s feeling) in her native tongue.

I speculate that you get better when you are pushing past your limit, whereas
comfortable practice stops you from regressing. For example, being in a
situation where you are too tired to speak English but you have no choice.
Also, you could try more challenging forms of text such as poetry or older
English literature. While I doubt you have need to speak like Shakespeare,
forming a bit of fluency with 16th century English may prime your mind to be
more aware of the subtle differences you hear in modern English. Anyway, just
speculation so take with a pinch of salt!

------
angarg12
I live in England and I'm married to a Brit, and I still make hilarious
mistakes and cause silly misunderstandings. Would it be better if I wrote or
spoke an ice-cold perfect English? I don't think so.

I'm proficient in English and I feel confident speaking. I don't think my
accent hurts me in my professional or personal life. On the contrary, I think
that it enriches the conversation. I can count with one hand the number of
times a bad accent or not knowing a word or expression caused even the slight
issue in my life during the last few years.

Going back to the question, it comes from experience. To this day I still hear
words that I don't know or want to say expressions that I only know how to say
in my mother tongue. In those situations, I give a literal translation and
then look for a similar expression in English. You'll find that many times
there is an equivalent, but other times such expressions don't really exist in
other languages. And that's great! it adds to the richness of knowing more
that one language. As a side, if you find yourself in these situations, make
very clear to your conversation partners that you want to get corrected when
you make a mistake, otherwise some people will keep quiet out of politeness.

Lastly, keep in mind that not all native speakers of a language talk perfectly
all the time (far from it!). There is a good chance you already write better
than some people by virtue of paying more attention to it. Once you realise
that language is about communication and not about getting a perfect grade, it
will lift a weight out of your shoulders and allow you to enjoy it more.

------
user_agent
@OP Listen to me very carefully, because what you're going to read here might
significantly not only improve your skills but also make the whole process of
learning languages far more simpler than what most people (incorrectly) apply.

There's a branch of linguistics called "applied linguistics". Within it the
people studying it learn how to - and this part is crucial - teach a person of
a given nationality a foreign language of choice using proven, mostly
effective methods. As you see, the AL process is going to look like
differently for an Italian leaning Spanish and an American learning Polish.
This is why the person that can guide you, a teacher, must be of your native
nationality. It takes on average 2,5-3,5 years of not that hard work to make a
person speaking let's say English into someone who's impossible to distinguish
from native speakers. I've seen the results myself, and I was glazing my eyes!

Instead of looking for a regular teacher take the one that's been studying
applied linguistics instead. Those people aren't much more expensive. You need
a guidance of that kind because someone knowledgeable must tell you what you,
specifically, do wrong. Having that knowledge and reasonable tools to address
your challenges you're going to love what you can get from the learning
process.

I'm the best example :) My teacher told me after 2 years that I'm the most
untalented, lazy, not motivated enough, stubborn person she's ever seen in her
life. Plus that the fact that she made me who I am today is her greatest
success ;) Kudos to her - I'm doing pretty fine with English (being Polish).
Moreover, I know what I don't know, so now I can work on my own. You can't put
a price on that.

Good luck!

------
jjgreen
I looked at you post carefully (I do some copy editing, so I'm used to looking
for errors), I couldn't find any. I'd not believe someone who said they could
tell that you weren't a native speaker. The only thing, very slight, I'd
probably say that "I'm also aware that my grammar is not perfect" would be a
little more idiomatic, but that could be an AmE/BrE thing.

------
TheOtherHobbes
Correction in your last para:

"If you spot out..." should be "If you spot anything you might have..."

"Articulated" doesn't quite work because the past tense shades towards meaning
"movable with joints" instead of "express." I'd have gone with the simpler
"said differently."

Honestly, it gets really tough at this level, because native speakers learn
these shades of meaning - if they learn them at all - through years of
exposure and practice. A lot of them are just conventions. There's no
dictionary or textbook for them. They're just standardised language quirks
which everyone knows and copies.

I would _not_ suggest you learn by reading the great English prose stylists,
because a lot of the stylings are archaic. It's great writing and can be
entertaining and enjoyable, but it's not a prose style you want to emulate
because it will sound stuffy and pompous in a modern context.

See also: "social register."
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_(sociolinguistics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_\(sociolinguistics\))

Instead I'd buy a shelf full of novels by 20th century and later writers.
Orwell is always good, but also Margaret Atwood, Robertson Davies, Don
DeLillo, Iain Banks, maybe Thomas Pynchon at a stretch. Definitely Terry
Pratchett and JK Rowling. Among many others.

Don't just read them, see if you can understand how they use social register
to set tone and define character in different social contexts.

For day to day English your best bet is probably the magazine industry.
Regular reading of tech magazines and wider cultural and political commentary
will help a lot.

~~~
DoreenMichele
_" Articulated" doesn't quite work because the past tense shades towards
meaning "movable with joints" instead of "express."_

That didn't even cross my mind. That's probably "an engineer's perspective" so
to speak.

These days, lots of words have different meanings to different people,
depending upon the context of their lives, and it's getting really hard to
treat anything as a lingua franca, even English which gets called "globish,"
because we have so many people with such rich and varied knowledge bases who
use the same words to mean different things entirely.

I do agree that _said_ is the better word, but mostly because it's shorter and
more common and not because there is much risk of it being misinterpreted,
given the context.

~~~
pja
Honestly, to this native speaker, articulated was a perfectly good word choice
in this instance & one that I might have made myself.

I agree; I don’t think the alternate meaning of 'jointed movement' is going to
occur to the majority of people - it’s really not in common use.

------
jotm
> I still feel some sentences are direct translations of the way I would say
> something in Hebrew, and that a native speaker would have said it
> differently. I’m also aware of my grammar not being perfect. Knowing which
> preposition to use is sometimes challenging.

Just learn how to do that properly, and maybe learn why certain things are
spoken/written the way they are (the history behind English is quite
fascinating). Google exact match is a godsend for this :D

> The only option I could think of is living in an English speaking country,
> but that currently not an option.

That may actually turn out to be a major disappointment. Native English
speakers don't care about how they speak (or even write). Aside from your
accent, which may never improve, you will likely be better than half of the
country you'll be living in :D

On the accent: You can sound native, but always a bit off to anyone paying
attention. Physiological differences due to growing up with another language
in the very early years. Perhaps constant everyday training and speaking only
English can help.

------
zhte415
I love the Only Fools and Horses suggestion.

This question and related suggestions might vary by English speaking country,
or even region. The beauty is there is no 'right'.

[https://twitter.com/SirPatStew](https://twitter.com/SirPatStew)

This was my second stage of enjoying learning my mother tongue. Not Patrick
Stewart specifically (he's superb), but doing Shakespeare in secondary school
(UK). Great fun. This was an inner London comprehensive not a fancy school at
any level, yet everyone loved it. Who hates shouting 'Ho!' at the rest of the
class? The interpretation, flexibility, etymology, was enlightening.

The third stage was writing a thesis in university. I think you're there for
precise writing already. I think you're > a lot of native speakers already.
Try some Shakespeare. Lots of good other suggestions here too; find one that
fits, and try a few that might not seem they do, but then do.

Disclaimer: Am no linguist.

------
laingc
Firstly, your English is indeed very good - for a second language, that's
awesome. Well done!

Secondly, I'm in a similar position to you with German. I have two advantages
over you:

1\. I lived and worked in Germany for several years; 2\. I am married to a
German.

That said, there are a few things that I try to do to improve. Not sure if
they're relevant to you, but take what you can from them.

1\. I ask lots of technical questions. I enjoy languages and try to get to the
root of both my own language and others, and to find the connections between
them. I talk about German grammar and idiom to my wife to the point of tedium.

2\. I listen to lots of podcasts by people from different regions with
different dialects.

3\. I try to read some older German texts, to get a feel for how the language
has evolved over the last few hundred years.

Honestly though, you're getting to a level of proficiency that is quite
rarefied for a non-native speaker, so returns will naturally diminish.

One final thought:

> spot out

is not good English idiom. "Spot" would suffice. :-)

Good on you for making such an effort, mate. Best of luck.

------
lcall
As children (native speakers), we were aided in learning to read by reading
the Book of Mormon aloud together as a family (taking turns, helping the
younger ones). I think it helped and familiarized us with not just one kind of
English that we were used to, but broadened us significantly (As the King
James Bible might, but the Book of Mormon seems to be in a style slightly
older.)

It's available freely online at
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm?la...](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng)
or [https://www.comeuntochrist.org/requests/free-book-of-
mormon](https://www.comeuntochrist.org/requests/free-book-of-mormon) . (I have
more info at my web site, linked to my profile; feedback or questions there
are welcome.)

------
PeterEFox
Don't worry. Many native British people don't know what a preposition is and
as for those Colonials across the Atlantic, I give up!

Rather than attempt perfect grammar (if there is such a thing), I recommend
you find a writing/speaking style you find comfortable with. This might mean
using interesting idioms (where most natives would use cliches) or 'talking in
writing'. Consider these two alternatives:- (a) Use short sentences. (b)
Here's a thing you could try. Brief sentences with just one thing in them at a
time.

Vocabulary will always help, but sources can be peculiar (dumbed-down or
deliberately off-centre) or jarringly out of date.

All in all, people are more interested in what you have to say than picking
out silly non-conformities. Read a few news or Wikepedia articles in English
you might fancy comparing with Hebrew to get the flow of sentences.

Good luck. Good reading. Good writing. Good conversation.

------
dsign
Everything that is worth knowing was written in English or has been translated
to it. Well, not quite, but it's a good rule of thumb. So, immerse yourself in
books written in English. Get audiobooks if you can. If you go far enough, you
will be exposed to new concepts and ideas in English first, before they
percolate to your native language. After a time, you will find yourself
struggling to put into your mother tongue concepts which are, for you,
effortless in English.

English is a beautiful language, because it lets you reach people. Honor it by
always doing your very best when writing and speaking it. Pay attention to
your pronunciation, and challenge yourself by writing more, if you can, and
editing and sharing your work.

Other than that, perfect native pitch is over-rated, and it may take away
confidence dearly needed to talk and practice more.

~~~
kohtatsu
>Everything that is with knowing was written in English or has been translated
to it.

Noam Chomsky must have believed this too; when he was prince of linguistics he
considered trying to save or document dying languages a waste of time and
unfashionable.

It effectively resulted in a language genocide.

It's hubris to think English will contain all of the answers.

There was a really engaging interview with Wade Davis on CBC about this:
[https://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/saving-the-planet-means-
liste...](https://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/saving-the-planet-means-listening-to-
indigenous-peoples-wade-davis-1.5467071)

Forgive the tangent.

~~~
dsign
> Everything that is with knowing was written in English or has been
> translated to it.

It's a rule of thumb, a practical rule for life at the same level than buying
groceries. I'm well aware that language incarnations form a very esoteric
space, worth studying and caring about if you are in the right profession, or
have the time and the inclination.

------
WheelsAtLarge
I think humor is one of those language areas that is hard to achieve in a
foreign language. It seems to me that if you can do that well then you've
reached a good milestone.

English idioms are hard, even for native speakers, so you might want to get a
book on those.

I knew of someone that kept his English sharp by reading whole newspapers
every day. You might want to do the same thing by going to one of the big
English newspaper sites. The opinion/review area is usually where you will
find writers using the more common form of the language.

Additionally, to that, I would start a blog or some other writing form that
will force you to practice what you've learned on a regular basis. You need to
go back and review what you've written and see where you've made mistakes. You
might need some help with that.

Good luck!

------
PappaPatat
I was born in one, lived long in a second and now am home in a third country.

In all three languages I feel confident, can tell jokes, understand and have
tested level C2 ([https://www.efset.org/cefr/](https://www.efset.org/cefr/)).

Still, every once in a while, I "have this feeling" my proficiency is subpar.
Still I learn new expressions and grammar twists that I was now aware about
before.

What helps me getting more certain and better in the word craft of the local
language is asking locals to correct me and ask them to explain words and
constructs that seem strange or unknown to me.

------
itchynosedev
I found that living with a native English speaker in the same house does teach
you a lot of intricacies of the language - pronunciation and grammar. However,
it's a deep territory of diminishing returns. In Europe, everyone's English is
kind of bad (a lot of people are fluent, of course, but almost never above the
level you want to reach), so there are not many people to appreciate your
fluency. I found it to be more enriching to learn a new language instead, that
gives massive appreciation of the languages you already know.

------
xivzgrev
Very fluent!

Little things I would tweak as American speaker

“I’m aware my grammar isn’t perfect”. “But that’s not currently an option”

Also “holiday” is a British English term. If you’re speaking to Americans use
“vacation”.

This doesn’t seem to be a problem for you but the biggest area I usually see
is verb tense, and singular / plural. “I want two watermelon” “I asks for the
watermelons” “25% is roughly align with what I see” (should be “aligned”, or
“roughly aligns” and drop is) “They hasn’t shared the results yet” (should be
“haven’t” for plural subject)

------
dmarchand90
For speaking and listening watch and re-watch seasons 3-10 of the Simpsons,
very wonderful, dense humor. Try to make sure you get all the little off-hand
comments and subtle jokes

------
yiyus
Practice. Reading will always help you (with any language), and watching
movies and tv will train your ear. If a totally immersive experience is not an
option, I do not think there is much more you can do. It is normal that a
foreign language does not feel like your mother tongue, you will probably keep
improving but there will always be some difference.

If your goal is to improve your writing too, I cannot recommend enough "The
elements of style" by Strunk and White.

------
misja111
I think I'm at a similar level as you, I can speak and write fluently but I
suspect that I'm not always using the right words in the right context.

In my experience, the only way to really get a feel for that is to have
conversations with native speakers. I had some native (Canadian, British)
speaking colleagues in the past, at a time when I falsely believed that my
English was near perfect, and it was amazing how much I noticed that I still
had to learn.

------
rgoulter
If you'll tolerate nitpicking (EDIT: I don't consider any of this worth
pointing out other than nitpicking):

Rather than "would sometimes" as "will sometimes".

I'd rephrase "current thought" to "thoughts" or "train of thought".

I'd rephrase "I’m also aware of my grammar not being perfect." as "I'm also
aware that my grammar is not perfect."

"but that currently [is] not an option" (presumably a typo).

~~~
OJFord
These are all the things I would have picked out - except I would just drop
'would', not replace with it 'will'. (The verb then becoming 'do', later in
the sentence.)

I'd also add that in changing any of those I could easily be proof-reading a
native speaker's writing.

With the exception of:

> if you spot out anything

unless it's an AmE idiom or something, to me that's the only think that marks
you out as non-native. I'm aware I've said both 'picked out' and 'marks you
out', and I have no idea how to explain why this is different, it just sounds
weird.

> if you spot anything

~~~
jgwil2
AmE speaker here. I have never heard anyone use "spot out" as a verb, but on
the other hand, prepositions seem to pretty frequently attach themselves to
new verbs or drop from common phrases. It still bugs me a little to hear
colleagues talking about "building out" a new feature instead of simply
building it, for example.

~~~
OJFord
That is a weird one, yes. I think it comes from 'flesh out', which, if
similar, is at least old enough that it doesn't sound strange to me.

Wiktionary sort of suggests it should sound similarly odd - it doesn't discuss
it on the flesh out page [0], but for flesh vb. [1] it does give '5\. To put
flesh on; to fatten'.

[0] -
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flesh_out#Verb](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flesh_out#Verb)

[1] -
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flesh#Verb](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flesh#Verb)

------
iwangulenko
Study "The Elements of Style" ([https://www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-Fourth-
William-Strunk-...](https://www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-Fourth-William-
Strunk-ebook/dp/B079C7VZ3Y/)), a classic on better writing. It will teach you
about how to really write for the reader and not for yourself.

~~~
emblaegh
I also recommend Steven Pinker's Sense of Style[1], as a more modern and
definitely more interesting to read alternative.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Sense-Style-Thinking-Persons-
Writing-...](https://www.amazon.com/Sense-Style-Thinking-Persons-Writing-
ebook/dp/B00INIYG74/ref=sr_1_7?crid=TNL9FAD82TFP&dchild=1&keywords=pinker+steven&qid=1588147991&s=digital-
text&sprefix=pinker+%2Cdigital-text%2C319&sr=1-7)

------
sunstone
Here are three things you can usefully try. Watch more movies in English with
the subtitles off. Do "Picture Description" with an articulate english speaker
(you both describe a given picture to each other). If your pronunciation isn't
perfect really work on that with a coach.

------
xapxap
Browse [https://www.urbandictionary.com/](https://www.urbandictionary.com/)

look for games like
[https://research.google.com/semantris](https://research.google.com/semantris)

Play online games with teamspeak

~~~
saagarjha
Would not recommend casually browsing the former to get better at English.
Looking up new terms that you encountered on social media, maybe.

~~~
afiori
also urban dictionary contains a lot of obviously joke definitions where you
need to already know the word to see it is not the actual meaning.

~~~
saagarjha
You don’t need to know the actual meaning, but you do need the context in
which it appears. If your coworker puts a new acronym in a code comment it’s
likely not a vulgar definition, for example.

~~~
afiori
Yes, but then it is something like reading those list of acronyms definitions
where LOL somehow means "hail Satan" (urban dictionary often is quite good,
but in the context of the question this can be a serious problem). I would
recommend it more for refreshing old memories rather than for learning.

------
saagarjha
Have you tried reading a lot of English text written by fluent native
speakers? I find that this is a great way to learn idiomatic usage that you
can then emulate. (Disclaimer: I’m a native speaker, but this is how I’ve
improved my language skills. Also I’ve started writing more.)

------
el-salvador
You could try reading articles from the Economist. They have a very
interesting way of writing that avoids common phrases, cliches and words that
come from latin when an English equivalent exists. They also use lots of
comparisons and interesting word choice.

------
monkeyspanner
Well, take this test to find where you really stand. (maybe be prepared to be
humbled)

[http://htmlgiant.com/craft-notes/grammar-
challenge/](http://htmlgiant.com/craft-notes/grammar-challenge/)

------
EricE
Read. When I a actively reading books (not the Internet, but actual books -
fiction or nonfiction, doesn’t seem to make much a differenct) I can notice my
vocabulary expanding. When I fall out of the habit, it atrophies.

------
p1esk
_If you spot out anything you might have articulated differently, it’d be
great to hear_

I'm not a native speaker, but I'd use "spot" rather than "spot out". Don't
know why, just looks a bit unusual.

~~~
pja
You "call out" something that you’ve spotted.

I suspect that the OP has merged one idiom into the other :)

As a native speaker, "spot" by itself or maybe more formally a verb like
"notice" would be something that I would use in normal everyday speech in this
context.

I would probably write: _“If you spot anything you might have articulated
differently, it’d be great to hear about it!”_

OPs grammar & vocabulary is really impressive. Internalising all these
entirely unwritten rules that are implicit to native speakers of a language is
what makes the difference between someone who is "merely" (! hah: like there’s
anything unimpressive about being fluent in a non-native tongue) fluent &
someone who sounds like they grew up with the language.

(I know someone who has lived in Paris for decades & speaks fluent French, but
to this day still speaks French with an obvious Yorkshire accent. Not even
just an English accent: it’s obviously a Yorkshire one!)

------
bliker
I find that one of the hardest things is to know what sounds natural. I found
this website useful for checking specific phrases
[https://ludwig.guru](https://ludwig.guru).

------
ecaradec
I’m in the same ballpark as you are, and you actually seem a bit better than I
am. Some teachers specialize in accent training, it might be a good idea to
find one that could help you progress in that direction.

------
leemailll
you don't give specific area you want to improve, but your words sound like
you might want to improve written or some type of formal communications. I
think those recordings at Oyez might be an interest choice. Listen the
recordings while read the transcript on screen. It is a mix of both formally
written and quick verbal exchanges. And some of the recordings are really
interesting and informative. If you prefer reading, I suggest ALDaily, hand-
chosen light reads everyday, covers many fields of literacy, and well-writen.

------
bryanrasmussen
What do you read in English? I would suggest that achieving deep fluency in a
language requires experience with the greatest and formative literature of
that language.

~~~
PeterEFox
The English language is changing. Nobody speaks like Charles Dickens, John
Buchan or Emily Bronte. Even TV shows from the 1970s are wildly out of date.

~~~
bryanrasmussen
This assumes several things, all of which I believe are wrong:

1\. it assumes that the references to the writings of Charles Dickens, Emily
Bronte, William Blake etc. etc. do not litter the linguistic landscape and
that people could not improve their understanding of the language by picking
up on those references (John Buchan maybe not so much)

2\. that there are not levels of usage of the language where these references
are required (which I called deep fluency), one can certainly be fluent and
argue points, but not know how to adequately poke fun at Alan Simpson's quote
of "Who steals my purse, steals trash" without some familiarity of Iago.

3\. Finally it assumes that there will never be any conversation or situation
in which there will be people familiar with these references, and that they
would do anything like sprinkle those references throughout their speech, as a
sort of intellectual spice. Widely read people may often do this and, as like
seeks like, their acquaintances are probably widely read as well, so it can be
helpful to know what these people are talking about.

If you cannot recognize the reference, you cannot respond in kind.

At any rate I thought it a truth universally acknowledged that some phrasings
don't go out of style, and must be in want of insertion into any discussion
they could possibly fit.

------
Gibbon1
> I’m also aware of my grammar not being perfect.

As a native English speaker is this funny since English grammar is a bit
fluid.

> Knowing which preposition to use is sometimes challenging.

True that. Also adjective order.

My suggestion is read and watch popular English fiction. I say that because
I'm dubious that your English is technically deficient. More likely has to do
with the intersection of culture and language. As in when and how to shift
from formal to informal depending on situation. Also remember the English
speaking world itself is fragmented. For instance I can often tell where
someone grew up in the Bay Area by their speaking style.

------
Koshkin
Deliberate practice makes perfect. (Watching TV or even reading is not
enough.) One caveat, though: it will _never_ feel like a mother tongue.

------
submaroon
My first thought was to suggest finding multiple English translations of a
piece of Hebrew Literature you like and comparing them. Then I remembered the
linked article, which is a comparison of four different English translations
of the verse novel Eugene Onegin, by Alexander Pushkin. The article was
written by Douglas Hofstadter, a professor of cognitive science and
comparative literature at Indiana University who has an essay collection
called Metamagical Themas (an anagram of Mathematical Games). The first few
essays are about self-referential sentences and a subset of those, self-
replicating sentences, which you really have to read to believe. Maybe check
out his book Gödel, Escher, Bach. It won the Pulitzer, but if you pick it up,
just remember that when you get confused, it’s his fault, not yours.

But Winston Churchill said it best, and this is great advice: “short words are
best, and old words, when short, are best of all”.

[https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/97/07/20/r...](https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/97/07/20/reviews/hofstadter-
translation.html)

[https://www.powells.com/book/-9780465045662](https://www.powells.com/book/-9780465045662)

[https://www.powells.com/book/-9780465026562](https://www.powells.com/book/-9780465026562)

------
AlwaysForward
Etymology, learning about the roots and origins of words gives a language so
much more depth and meaning.

------
DeathArrow
Try to make more mistakes. Many native speaking people aren't speaking
properly.

------
BerislavLopac
Here's one aspect of English that drives me completely insane: phrasal verbs.

------
AndyBK
Listen to BBC Radio 4.

------
british_india
Read fiction.

