
UpCounsel Shutting Down - thisisxavier
https://www.upcounsel.com/blog/we-thank-you-for-your-support
======
nihonde
Silicon Valley has consistently failed to disrupt legal markets, not just
because lawyers are a protectionist guild, but also because clients seem to
want to overpay. It’s a pathology that has something to do with the idea that
the higher cost is worthwhile. As a lawyer who has been both a BigLaw attorney
and in-house counsel, I find the premise that name brand law firms are worth
their fees to be totally wrong. The incentives for any lawyer who is on the
clock are contrary to your own best interests, and even more so when they have
to pay for a pyramid scheme of senior partners, expensive offices, first-class
airfares, etc.

Try going through a funding round with well-known VCs. I bet they all still
use Gunderson and Wilson Sonsini instead of the “disruptors“ in their own
portfolios.

~~~
gumby
I think the customers don't know how to _use_ legal counsel and somehow don't
want to learn. I agree it's bizarre.

I have used Gunderson Dettmer since they started (was before that one of VLG's
first accounts) and have very low legal bills. But I know when to use them and
when not to. And when a partner is needed (almost never) and when I can get as
good or better from an associate.

Another weird thing is that many customers value the firm and not the partner
(I don't really use the firm GD, I use specific people). I "used" Cooley for
one specific firm but really I used one person and when he decamped for
another firm my company moved with him. Likewise just because that company
used Cooley for general corporate law didn't mean we even considered their
patent team.

~~~
jfengel
I really hope I never have to learn how to use legal counsel.

Businesses, of course, have to, but even there it's hard. How does one "shop
around" for a lawyer? On what basis can I judge whether somebody is
sufficiently smart, hard working, and experienced in the domains I will
require?

If I had to do it every day, I'd learn through a series of mistakes. In fact,
that's basically what I have done, on the few occasions I've needed a lawyer
-- I'm pretty sure I've gotten poor-quality work, but even now I don't really
know. I know that I'm not happy with the results in every case, but I have no
idea if a different lawyer would have done better.

That has mostly left me really hoping I never need an attorney for my personal
life. Which I will, some day -- and suspect my heirs will complain about my
choice.

~~~
gumby
You should meet a friendly lawyer (perhaps an ex classmate who went to law
school) and have them "show you the ropes". There's a ton of unnecessary crap
that customers (err, "clients") ask for or could and should do themselves.

And there are places lawyers can help a lot (hint: typically _not_ business
decisions).

~~~
elpakal
hijacking this to show off something my lawyer friend and I are working on
(we’re in YC startup school now). we both agree with some of the comments in
this thread. this is a lite landing page but we have mvp almost complete:
[https://thecaseyak.com/](https://thecaseyak.com/)

It’s a ML backed plugin that helps injured people receive a data backed case
estimate for a personal injury claim, and law firms receive leads with the
data backed case value (it’s also available in Spanish and fully accessible).

We’re looking for beta testers right now - if anyone is in the PI law world
and wants to try it out, let us know!

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tnolet
\- "journey": check

\- "humbled, honored": check

\- complete shutdown < 30 days: check

\- no context on what, why, and how it happened: check.

This is a sour post, sorry for that. Startups are hard, no question about
that.

But as mentioned elsewhere, this type of posts just adds more damage and
unclarity to a situation that is probably pretty dramatic for the founders,
customer and employees.

~~~
privateSFacct
These are the scammers that would report 4,000 5 star reviews for tiny law
firms supposedly handling high end ip matters? It was a total scam set of
ratings (they claimed to just use top 5% of firms as well but the “ratings”
they claimed users left were garbage) - their transparency might have to be
“we were caught making up reviews of attorneys on our site”? Don’t know
details but someone could find a bar complaint or lawsuit I think

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DominiBouch
So I started legal tech myself and am familiar with Upcounsel.

They struggled to build a sustainable network effect in their marketplace due
to regulation (split fee is prohibited) and business model. Regulation
deterred lots of lawyer to join in fear of losing their licence (despite the
fact they already had a significant number) and thus increasing CAC of
acquiring supply.

Second, legal service are very punctual (dont need them often) which mean its
a low frquency purchase which again increase CAC.

Competion with traditional law firm on top of it didnt help. In marketplace
you need absolutely a community that fuel word of mouth and network effect but
in this case lawyer just couldnt rally as much as they wanted (regulation).

good idea, good founders, good product (yes there was some bad reviews but
nothing out of the ordinary for an online marketplace/or any business) but in
the end, business model didnt work. Avvo had similar issue and closed one of
their product. Looking forward to their next startup.

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finsrud
I know these situations can be painful, (and there may be concerns re:
confidentiality), but I really wish more founders would share a bit more
detail describing what went wrong.

This kind of candor would be hugely valuable to other founders who are still
in the trenches.

------
6sp
I just discovered UpCounsel recently and it has been extremely helpful for
keeping costs down at a startup. Very disappointed as I was looking forward to
using for years to come. I especially like how fees were clearly displayed and
lawyers were able to compete to get the job.

~~~
yesplorer
You created an account just to hype a dead start-up?

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jimaek
That's too bad, I'm based in Poland but I used them often to register
trademarks in the US and ask legal questions about doing business there. It
was very helpful and transparent with pricing.

Are there any good alternatives?

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nctruckguy
A good alternative is [http://www.legal-marketplace.com](http://www.legal-
marketplace.com). They also offer buy here services and the ability to get
proposals online.

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DangerousPie
Huh, I have just been looking to get some legal advice and this seems like
exactly the kind of service I'd want to use. Shame it's shutting down.

Does anybody know similar services?

~~~
manigandham
A good alternative is [https://www.lawtrades.com](https://www.lawtrades.com)

Also you can call local offices and individual lawyers and build up a long-
term relationship. I've done that for previous startups and they can easily
handle most general work and introduce you to any specialists you need, while
saving all the overhead of going with a firm or in-house counsel.

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manigandham
Unfortunately no details on the cause. The business model is valid and
perfectly sustainable so it should be good news for LawTrades and the others.

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joelrunyon
No details on the reasoning why?

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throw03172019
Ads all over a startup blog. Hrmm.

~~~
Keverw
Yep, I thought that was odd too. I wonder if they always had ads or trying to
milk the news they are shutting down?

I kinda always felt ads on a business blog was kinda unprofessional unless you
had a general tech/news type blog or the ads on your business blog is for your
own products/sponsors/community, etc instead of general unrelated third party
ads.

Also I guess another flaw of using ad networks for your own company blog,
someone could pay money to display ads for their competitors product on their
competitors websites.

