

Consider buying a scenic French village and make into a startup/hacker haven? - anmol
http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/02/24/you-can-own-an-entire-french-village-for-440000/

======
wisty
As I understand it, these French villages are huge money sinks. You buy them,
then find that French law requires you maintain them in their original
condition. You can't bulldoze them and build modern buildings, and making 15th
century French hamlets livable (let alone suitable as a hacker-space) isn't
easy.

If you love restoring old buildings, knock yourself out; but otherwise I'd be
very careful. Check what the impact of heritage laws is.

~~~
ekianjo
And if you dive in the French Law a little bit, you will find out it's far
from being entrepreneur-friendly. You will get massively taxed on any profit,
and employees' rights are so large that you could be sued if you need to cut
down your resources (even if you do on pure economic grounds).

Definitely not a place to build a startup. That's one of the reasons there are
no high profile startups in France: there's way too many obstacles, most
french people who are serious about creating one usually leave the country.

Edit: oh, and I forgot that, in France, making money on your own, is very
badly regarded. You would be assumed to be rich and evil, by default. (I am
not inventing anything. Just check french forums/newspapers whenever there are
economic news).

~~~
Gmo
Please stop spreading FUD, thanks :

<http://www.rudebaguette.com/2012/02/07/six-lies/>

~~~
ekianjo
Hum. I checked your link:

1\. Government sponsoring startups. That sounds like soviet union. Remember,
it's the same government that has a huge debt of thousands of billions of
euros? That money won't last forever. It's going to be very expensive to get
funds of the market for France, and they will have to cut into the sponsorship
sooner or later. Not reliable.

2\. It takes a long time to set up a company in France. NOt only the
administrative tasks themselves, but getting to know what you need to do takes
time prior to take action. It's not straightforward and there is not a single
place to go to.

3\. High taxes. High taxes are high taxes, no matter what you compare them to.
Look at what an employer has to pay to the State before even paying a single
employee. It's scary.

4\. Talent pool. I don't argue on that point, you can find good people. Just
like in every developed country with a relatively efficient education system,
by the way.

5\. This only mentions the trial period and the time when the employee is
under a temporary contract. The situation is very different once that person
is under a CDI (unlimited duration contract). Then they can take sick leave
whenever they want to, and it will be very difficult to get rid of a non-
performing employee. It's a fact.

6\. Funny point. Most of those startups are virtually unknown internationally.
And Dailymotion was bought over by a semi-public company (Orange), a well
known public enemy of innovation and champion of statu quo. For a fact,
there's no Twitter, no Facebook, no Google in France. Not even anything close
to that.

Yeah, you are right, that says a lot about the startup investment scene in
France.

Next time you want to call my claims a FUD, please find better links.

~~~
Gmo
I'm sorry but you keep spreading FUD ...

1\. Your first point is totally moot ... go check the debt of the United
States and we'll talk again. I'm not even talking about your "Soviet union"
totally closed political view.

2\. I'd argue that it'll take a long time to set up a company anywhere when
you don't know the customs of the country. Of course, language is an
additional barrier, but I'm pretty sure I'd manage to set up a startup
quickier in France than in the US, just because I'm French. Same for you in
your own country. Big deal.

3\. If you don't understand that the tax system is totally different, and that
it means you won't have to make a 401k (I think that the name right ?) and buy
your employees social security, I can't do anything for you. Once again, you
are very biased towards a very specific type of system.

4\. Great that you agree.

5\. As it is said, trial periods are standard in any permanent contract, if
after 6 months you still don't know that you don't like your employee, I'm
sorry, but I can't do anything for you.

6\. A point you could make for almost any non-English speaking country.

~~~
ekianjo
1\. The difference with the US is that you also have a lot of powerful private
investors you can approach. In France, its all government money and almost
nothing else. My point is valid in that regard.

5\. That does not solve the problem of flexibility of hiring and firing. If
the context becomes unfavorable and your company bleeds money, you will not be
able to get rid of some of your workforce easily, so your business will bleed
even faster. Its as simple as that, and its not like startups face no
competition huh?

6\. Totally disagree. Baidu in China. Gree in Japan. I can find other examples
if needed.

~~~
Gmo
1\. There are also private investors in France ... Are there less than in the
US ? Yes for sure, but saying there is none is totally wrong (and I can give
you example if necessary).

5\. Protection against firing at will is different than not being able to fire
at all. It happens everyday, and no, it does not always end up in court.

6\. I have no clue what Gree is. Baidu is famous yes, but have you ever used
it ? I haven't. It's used exclusively in China.

For the other points, I'm happy to see you didn't find anything to say.

My point is not that some things could nto be better done in France, just that
there is a lot of half truth (that's an understatement) lying around.

~~~
ekianjo
1\. since when "almost nothing" = none ? I never said there was none. There
are very few, and I would be very surprised if they are not linked to
government agencies somehow. Feel free to provide examples, and also in what
projects they invested in. That would be interesting.

5\. I did not say it is impossible to fire someone, I said you have to go in
great lengths to do so, and you may end up in court as well to justify your
actions. This happens more often than not in France. You know the
"Prud'hommes", right ?

6\. I mentioned high profile startups in the first place. Not used at
international level. My aim was to show that there were very few local
competitors in France to the Internet giants. Baidu is a clear competitor of
Google in China (and larger than Google, anyway). Gree is the number 1
provider of online games in Japan. I could also mention Mixi, a social network
in Japan at least as big as Facebook in the country, if not more (while I am
not aware of the latest share).

For the other points, I did not answer because I was writing from my phone and
could not spend time to answer everything. Anyway, it should be obvious that
in France, the PME (small and medium companies) sector is minimal compared to
other developped countries. Startup belong in that field, and it is clear that
if the climate for small companies was more favorable, there would be more of
them. Hence my claim "not the best place to fund a startup" in my original
post.

There are probably worse places than France, but clearly better choices
outside as well, that's why you have a "fuite des cerveaux" going on for
several years: those who are ambitious do not want to deal with useless
administrative obstacles. They want to focus on their business, full time.

~~~
Gmo
You want an example : here is one : <http://owlient.eu/>

They got venture capital by Innovacom (not a government agency) and then just
got bought by Ubisoft (not a government company).

As for big startups known in France (and not necessarily internationally),
well, Meetic is one of them for instance. Or vente-privee.com. I guess you
could even put OVH in there.

------
Gmo
As someone coming from a very small village from the French countryside
(probably not too different from the one that is to sell here), it does appeal
to me ...

As a matter of fact, I was thinking of just that the other day, coming back in
my village in a couple of years and try to start a hackers/startup/"IT" hub
... (maybe just starting with a hackathon or something similar).

You could wonder who would be interested ? And how the locals would react ?

Well, first, you have to imagine being in the countryside, being able to take
a bike, roam in the woods, go on the river ... Then there is complete silence
(like, really really silent). And of course, the food.

There's also a plan (although I think it's partially on hold right now) to
have fiber everywhere. And no doubt that the local administration would help
with that if you have a serious projects.

As for the locals, they are very friendly, the only thing they ask is that you
take part in the community (for instance, buy at the local bakery or butcher).
In the area I come from, there has been a steady stream of Dutch people buying
secondary houses for the last 20 years. They all enjoy it, and are very
welcome.

Yes, there is a language barrier, but this can definitely be overcome with
good will from both sides (I've seen it in action).

Anyway, just a thought ...

~~~
thibaut_barrere
See my other comment in the thread: I totally relate to what you wrote - we
moved to a very rural place almost 2 years ago and are very happy with this!

------
rmason
Or you could buy a nice building in downtown Detroit and create a startup
village for roughly the same price. Enough space people could live in the
building and just take the elevator to their office. Maybe something similar
to this one:

<http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/17455927/40-Hague-Detroit-MI/>

Detroit already has the Madison building which is filling with VC's and their
portfolio companies.

[http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/detroit-
madison-t...](http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/detroit-madison-
theater-building-gets-an-upgrade-20120130-ms)

------
joshes
It would be interesting to see a Kickstarter project devoted to this. It would
need to get big fast (Friday deadline to submit an offer), and would need both
the $440,000 minimum to purchase the village and ample money on top of that
for renovation. It might be a hard sell for people who have no desire or
ability to relocate to the village, but I am sure smarter folk than I could
think of some sort of angle to generate attention to the project. Perhaps?

~~~
ekianjo
And what would you offer to Kickstarter supporters? A week for free in a dead
village? A brick from the 13th century church ?

If people left the place there's a clear reason for that. Money is not going
to bring back interest in a long-dead location. Unless you make it like a new
Las Vegas.

~~~
anmol
Pay $1000/month for a combination of:

\-- reasonable short-term accommodation, e.g., high-end youth hostel type

\-- Shared office space e.g., Dogpatch Labs or General Assembly style

\-- good internet and coffee

\-- permission to work (visas, etc)

~~~
nicksergeant
For $1,000/month you can have all of that and more in basically any part of
the country other than SF, NYC, L.A., etc.

~~~
ekianjo
For 1000 dollars a month you would probably get a much better deal in many
places around the world, like in South East Asia. You'd get better weather
there, too, and decent internet access. Not sure about the visa situation,
though, but for sure getting a work visa in France is not easy and takes time.

------
thibaut_barrere
Funny, we have started this already! But not with a castle: not a good idea if
you plan to bootstrap (money sink as wisty said).

We are 2 couples of hackers/entrepreneurs located here:

<http://bit.ly/zZLmrH> (google maps link)

What we like about here:

\- cheap yet nice houses compared to the rest of France (with gardens, woods,
swimming-pools)

\- well balanced climate (sunny on summer but not too hot, comfortable in
winter usually)

\- plenty of good food and quality restaurants

\- Paris is not too far if needed (although I work almost 100% remotely)

\- sea is not too far

We're not alone: I came across more and more entrepreneurs who are moving to
rural areas to enjoy good quality life.

~~~
Gmo
Interesting ... now I would need 2 things to do something similar : \- come up
with an idea for a good startup \- convince my girlfriend

May I ask you if you did grow up in the area ? Or in a similar area ?

My point is, for someone that grew up in a (big) city, it might not be easy to
adapt

~~~
thibaut_barrere
I did not grow up in the area nor my wife, but we have a bit of family around
and came here during a couple of years for holidays.

On the startup + girlfriend: I wouldn't try to "convince" but rather see if it
would be a good fit. My girlfriend and I are now associates: we're doing
remote consulting and bootstrapping <https://www.wisecashhq.com>. We first
gave this a try for one year, to see if things were good for us. After one
year we bought a house here, as we were really happy.

On the city: I know some people from big city who do not adapt well, while
other (still from big cities) did adapt very well. It's just something to
think about then test, planning a rollback if it's not for you.

One important point for us is that apart from the consulting , our business
project is really something we work on as a couple.

------
schwa
I've been to that part of France often (my mother lived about an hour outside
of Limoges). It's very beautiful. Long straight tree lined roads, sleepy
little villages, fields full of sunflowers. Limoges is a good sized town with
a small airport (LIG) with flights to the UK and other locations several times
a day.

As for a startup haven? Stranger things have happened.

------
untog
"What's that? I'd need a visa to actually do any work there? Oh, OK, I'll just
apply to the government, I'm sure the process is efficient. _Oh_."

~~~
vidarh
Except of course for the half a billion people or so that are citizens of EEA
countries.

------
munin
> the area is described as home to “thieves, ravers and squatters,” one local
> told the Le Figaro newspaper.

somehow I think making it a hacker haven won't do anything to endear you with
the locals ...

~~~
derrida
So now they will describe it as home to 'hackers, thieves, ravers and
squatters' :-)

If you go to Berlin, you'll discover many hackers are both also ravers and
squatters. If you go to a security conference, you'll find many that are
thieves.

I'm sure the people hanging out there are fine. :-)

------
aymeric
Why would you set up this hacker haven there if you can do the same thing in a
cheap but paradisiac country like Thailand or the Philippines for the same
cost?

~~~
anmol
French food, art and culture. (Not to take anything away from Thailand or
Chile)

~~~
saryant
And visa process. Good luck with that.

Sure, most Westerners can enter the Schengen zone for 90 days visa-free but
after that you've either got to leave for another 90 (or is it 180?) or get
sponsorship of some sort.

(Obviously this is a rather Amero-centric reply and doesn't apply to other EU
citizens)

------
ekianjo
This reminds me of what I saw recently about Detroit in the US. A number of
houses there are up for sale at ridiculously low prices such as 500 dollars or
less. When people leave, the land and property basically loses all value.

~~~
notatoad
The $500 houses in Detroit are a bit of a scam. You get the deed to the place
and then you get hit with the property taxes. Those places are empty for a
reason.

~~~
ekianjo
How large would be the property taxes for such houses? Is it significantly
higher than in other cities/states?

~~~
noonespecial
The difference is that the back taxes don't fall on the previous owners, they
stay with the property and keep piling up along with penalties, interest and
fees. The new buyer has to pay it all.

Once a property "sinks" (becomes worth less than its back taxes), its over.

------
jvrossb
Awesome idea for E.U. citizens (I'm a French national, I'd be down) but
there's the obvious visa issue for everyone else.

~~~
NonEUCitizen
For non-EU citizens:

<http://www.consulfrance-washington.org/spip.php?article519>

------
Breefield
If there's internet I'll move there.

------
semisight
If I had the money...

------
sebkomianos
How did this place end up being owned by a bank anyway?

------
jscore
do I get French residency?

