
Business co-founder making me uncomfortable - eruditely
i&#x27;m the technical cofounder and my cofounder is the&#x27;business guy. my cofounder is going to the media and attaching his homelessness to his identity and it&#x27;s making me uncomfortable. he is really talking up the rags to riches story and wants to cultivate it. I associate this with poor form.<p>i associate homelessness with lack of skills and i want to keep my identity small. i&#x27;m known for being well read and I really dislke that my co founder is making the company identity into a gimicky thing that he is using to get past homelessness and talking up the homeless part of his identity too much. he is approaching the media and a film crew is coming to talk about us and i want to avoid this unnecessary attention and well, just actually do the fundamental work necessary to succeed. all this film crew stuff seems premature, too much fluffy stuff, i&#x27;m just interested in knocking it out of the park.<p>i have grounds to not want to be a part of this right?I want to keep our identity small. I feel like an asshole, but I feel it is necessary.<p>i&#x27;m 23 years younger than him. I grew up around his area and my friends live here and they&#x27;re going to think I&#x27;m unskilled. I am also more intelligent than him,  mentioning this is distasteful to me but he doesn&#x27;t handle complex reasoning well at times or bad news. There is a stereotype of a &#x27;business&#x27; guy getting the technical guy to do a lot of work for him and I don&#x27;t want to give off the image that i&#x27;m getting taken advantage of.<p>need to go to sleep now.<p>i was an employee that was promoted and got ten percent he has thirty but while me and my co-worker just signed our equity papers it&#x27;s not through yet and it took quite some time.  i&#x27;m not getting paid, put 4 months of full time work in this, but neither is my co-worker(who i like a lot and is quite intelligent, and 6 months younger than me)<p>i&#x27;m not homeless, live with my parents, and if they read it they will force me to quit.<p>tl;dr i&#x27;m afraid we&#x27;re going to have the image of unskilled individuals working here when we&#x27;re not. we&#x27;re capable of knocking it out of the park but the image that is being presented is gross to me.<p>we&#x27;re in the s.v. and i&#x27;m willing to meet with a trustworthy member of this community for quick advice.
======
jtfairbank
This is a whole ball of worms:

\- Cofounders should have a roughly even equity split, with the min being no
more than 10% less than the max (unless there is a significant factor like one
founder investing 100k+ into the business at conception). This prevents
resentment and keeps the conversations equal.

\- You will have to get used to being in the press, it is necessary to be
successful. If this makes you uncomfortable, then have the non-tech founder be
the face of the company. But your name and company will be in the press.

\- The non-tech stuff is his side of the business. 99% of the time it is best
to let him handle this. You need to divide responsibility and then let go.

\- If your company relates to the plight of the homeless, this seems fine even
if it is a bit early. Otherwise this seems like a distraction / gimic to gain
publicity in a "look at what crazy startup founders have to do" kinda way.

\- Stop caring what other people think. If / when you're successful you'll get
even more people who think you suck and talk shit about you, your product,
etc.

------
argonaut
I will be very harsh, but only because I think you need to take a step back
and take some time to figure things out. The reason you need to go to school,
and not do a startup, has nothing to do with your equity/pay situation.

 _You are simply not emotionally mature enough to be working at a startup._

The first thing that stood out to me is the judgmentality over such trivial
matters.

Saying things like "i associate homelessness with lack of skills and i want to
keep my identity small. i'm known for being well read" really reminds me of
when I was really arrogant in high school and felt the need to maintain an
internal (and wholly undeserved) sense of moral/intellectual superiority over
my more popular (not unsurprisingly) classmates.

And then worrying about how your friends might perceive you because you're
associated with him. These are not the signs of legitimate concern. These are
the signs of insecurity. Similar to your fear that your parents would kick you
out of the house if they read this post. This is not the sign of someone
emotionally mature enough to be working full or part time at a startup.

Now, you could be totally right about there being too much focus on media
attention. But a socially mature adult (and business partner) would be
comfortable bringing those concerns directly to their cofounder, not to an
internet forum where they can let their ruminations run wild.

The fact that you've also accepted an arrangement that is an absolutely
terrible deal financially indicates a certain sense of naivete about
employment, how startups work, and finances. This is not how unpaid
internships work. The only reason to ever take an unpaid internship is if 1)
it's at a highly prestigious company, or 2) it's in an industry where there
are hundreds of _overqualified_ applicants for every position.

Either get a proper paid tech internship so you can actually learn what it
feels like to have a real job at a real company with real mentorship,
surrounded by people smarter than you. Or take classes and study hard so you
can get into a good school.

~~~
eruditely
edit: upon rereading your assessment and then my post, i thought this post was
way overblown and while it contains kernels of truth i think it is unfair and
too harsh.

My parents would try to pressure me to quit if they thought I was working with
someone like that, _if_ they read the newspaper article I was referring to.
_Not_ this post. In asian families this sort of stuff matters and it's not a
joke. (What race are you?)

If we give off the impression that we are unskilled individuals, why would
people trust us with difficult work? Why would people trust us with a touchy
project? If they associate us with low skills why would they trust us over the
next guy? These are all legitimate concerns in my eyes and I do not think that
tangent covers it.

I'm sorry if you want more information, adhd (which I have) comes with
something called the 30% rule which is emotionally you are 30% behind your
peers, so while I sympathize with what you said, your statements are correct.
*
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OVS16Abo80](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OVS16Abo80)
(Source/fact check) . BUT if you take stimulants you're back to normal(so +30%
and back to my age maturity) and yesterday I had very little sleep and did not
take what I was prescribed if it makes you feel better. So both of us can win
this one. your statement is correct to some degree of credibility but is false
in the general case. I get complete symptomatic remission I just have higher
variance in emotions. Perhaps too much information but this was a necessary
statement on my part.

* We have also had 2 advisers that didn't tell me anything was wrong/fishy and they've had plenty of business experience (20-50yrs between them). So my thought process was "My advisors would tell me if something was amiss". One of them has had two exits 3billion/300m . So I thought to myself "this is ethical, because these people would alert me to the facts".

I used to meet with one 300m/3b he used to be a math professor at mit too, i
met with this guy frequently and he was the one who told me I was smart (got
my confidence back up after a few setbacks) so I thought hell, why not mention
it? He again, did not alert me to the fact that anything was fishy. So I
thought this is the guy who knows, he _has_ had the exits and the industry
experience and is in high standing and known to be ethical. If there's any one
who would look out for me, it would be him, right? Guess not. I have to admit
the harshness of your post has me thinking.

>saying things like "i associate homelessness with lack of skills and i want
to keep my identity small. i'm known for being well read" really reminds me of
when I was really arrogant in high school and felt the need to maintain an
internal (and wholly undeserved) sense of moral/intellectual superiority over
my more popular (not unsurprisingly) classmates. And then worrying about how
your friends might perceive you because you're associated with him. These are
not the signs of legitimate concern. These are the signs of insecurity.

Well several people in this thread told me it was a legitimate image concern
and responded as if nothing was wrong with that concern so this makes me doubt
the validity of your claim and assessment. humans are social creatures man and
I should be able to control my identity.

At times in my life people have told me I'm too harsh on myself or not harsh
enough, too self-conscious not self-conscious it's difficult to get an
accurate opinion at times. If I had posted "i am not smarter" or not mentioned
it someone would say "you're selling yourself short man!" or something of the
sort, it's always a roll of the dice when when looking for opinions. I wanted
my beliefs to be congruent to reality, so I cast a wide net for opinions.

>Now, you could be totally right about there being too much focus on media
attention. But a socially mature adult (and business partner) would be
comfortable bringing those concerns directly to their cofounder, not to an
internet forum where they can let their ruminations run wild.

I did bring those concerns directly to him I just wanted to see if my
assessment was correct. I have been told I have very eccentric opinions or
unusual opinions so I try to get a feel for what everyone else is thinking.

> The fact that you've also accepted an arrangement that is an absolutely
> terrible deal financially indicates a certain sense of naivete about
> employment, how startups work, and finances. This is not how unpaid
> internships work. The only reason to ever take an unpaid internship is if 1)
> it's at a highly prestigious company, or 2) it's in an industry where there
> are hundreds of overqualified applicants for every position.

I don't know, I think you're exaggerating the unpaid internship thing, is this
just white people who think that way? I know plenty of friends who have done
so and they don't mind.

I wrote this when I was _really_ anxious and I didn't quite realize it at the
time. When I woke up I felt physically different. Please do not read too much
into this there's only so much you can infer from one days worth of
information. everyone here _has_ given me a lot more to worry about.

I also accepted this job when my cognitive abilities were really taking a hit,
I thought I had sleep apnea for awhile but it turned out I was getting too
little phase 3 sleep, (Getting 7% as opposed to 25-35%) and this was making me
nervous and cognitively under-performing and I was really glad to to be
working on a real project and getting some experience and working on something
legitimate that I could put on my resume.

------
Spoom
You _are_ getting taken advantage of. 10% equity while not taking any salary
isn't fair in any circumstances I can fathom unless the company is already
profitable.

~~~
eruditely
Alright what about this option, I just go back to school full time and finish
up my degree and work here part time.

~~~
panic
Why even work part-time? You're not getting paid. Tell them you need more
equity and that your co-founder needs to focus on the business instead of on
his personal image. When they say no, just leave completely (no part-time work
unless you're actually paid for it) and go back to school. If they want you to
build their company for them—and it is _their_ company if you only have
10%—they need to compensate you properly.

~~~
eruditely
Well what about experience? People do unpaid internships all the time and I
don't have a degree and I would need to transfer first.

The equity stake is The founder 30%, me @ 10%, other co-worker that's full
time @ 2.5% but getting paid and then another guy at 4%, and then our <staff>
who do the work work related to the business itself, and then the rest is set
aside for other employees and investors(a lot for investors).

You still agree with this assessment?

He did work on the company full time by himself and some other guy for half a
year/year with 1 or 2 contracts without me, but he has no technical skills so
he was just getting contracts himself.

Just so you know I am definitely listening to exactly how you are wording it
and will be making a decision based on these words.

~~~
panic
Well, the idea is you'd go through the process of being accepted by a school
before talking to your co-founder. Then, with an alternative option in hand,
you can actually have a negotiation.

~~~
eruditely
The issue is that I had a mental disorder that screwed up my grades so getting
accepted might be a little iffy, unless I apply for math which ups my shot, I
want to be a probabilist.

~~~
panic
No harm in applying, at least! You won't be any worse off if you don't get in.

------
JSeymourATL
> i have grounds to not want to be a part of this right? I want to keep our
> identity small.

As an equity partner in this start-up you now have a fiduciary interest in the
Branding/Marketing/Public Image of the company.

You didn't mention your market/client space. Does the press attention only
serve your older partner's ego or does it help convey your company's story to
your market?

Before confronting your cofounder-- first seek to understand. Get the specific
details of his media plans. Then consult with 1-2 branding experts, find one
on Hourly Nerd > [https://hourlynerd.com/your-matches/computer-
software/grow-b...](https://hourlynerd.com/your-matches/computer-
software/grow-business/)

A good chat with these guys should be the perfect sounding board whether or
not the 'rags to riches' stunt is a sound idea.

~~~
eruditely
The piece in my opinion does not sound that good and it was written by an
amateur journalist.

------
auganov
Sounds like its much more than the image issue. Just run lol. I wish I did
when I was in an analogous situation.

Laughable equity, co-founder you can't respect, already built-up resentment -
can only get worse.

------
ddorian43
No salary and 10% ? Doesn't make sense to me.

~~~
eruditely
I'm thinking about going back to school and finishing my degree and then
working part time. This sound better?

~~~
hotcool
Doesn't sound like you're a good fit for the company. Focus on school and your
social life.

------
dsr_
If you're "an employee that was promoted and got 10%" but are not being paid a
salary, it is entirely possible that you are not in a fair situation. My
recommendation is that you concentrate on that: is this a partnership you want
to be in?

~~~
eruditely
Well, the share that's being set is his 30% mine 10% he's already gotten us 2
contracts that bring us 5500 and 3200 and a year but this company isn't
profitable and i think we just got a smaller contract that gets us 500 a year.
we are not profitable.

there is like 30-40% set aside for investors

------
ljw1001
If your business partner is homeless and 23 years older than you, is there any
reason to believe he knows much about business?

~~~
eruditely
Well he moved from a different country here 2 years ago. He had a house in the
south and in England but he moved here to try to make it big, and his last
venture failed. He is talking to a few people to get a home right now and it
looks like he will get one soon.

------
sharemywin
your doing 9k per month and you can't pay anyone? where is the money going?
And when do you expect to get paid a living wage? when would you be making a
market wage?

~~~
eruditely
We're paying our staff. There's <staff> <us> staff is some unglamorous work
that we have to pay them a certain hourly rate for, but it takes a significant
part out of our margins. So we pay them first.

And it sounds like half a year to a year minimum.

------
eruditely
i should add we have like 96k a year in monthly revenue but we're still not
profitable. does this change anything? 30-40% is left aside for investors.

~~~
brianwawok
So 96k is a good starting point, shows the business is gaining some traction.

What are your expenses? Seems like the founder should be paying you at least
30 or 40k to live on, and adding money every new contract.

~~~
eruditely
well no one is taking a wage because the margins aren't good enough in this
business, we're not profitable yet. so should i ask for more equity?

i have no expenses because I have dad's credit card. lol. Odd no one commented
on the one part I disliked.

well my younger worker is taking a wake but it's like 17 an hour and he has no
relevant technical skills

~~~
brianwawok
So working for no pay you need to STRONGLY believe in the company. Do you
think in 1-2 years its going to be making millions of dollars?

If so, get more equity. If not, quit.

I think you are worrying too much about equity, when the problem is your
position. Equity means nothing if you don't get paid out. The odds of you EVER
getting pay to match all the hours work decreases with every day you show up
for work.

~~~
eruditely
I also have the option of finishing up my degree. Should I just go back to
school full time and try to transfer and work at work part time with the same
equity arrangement or should I just continue with the advice that every one
else has advised.

~~~
brianwawok
I think school is important, but I also think money is important.

To me the ideal situation is to work 20-40 hours for pay (not equity) while
going to school part-full time. So could be full time work and part time
school, or full time school and part time work. (Full time work and full time
school can be rough).

But again, you are young and need actual money. Equity is not going to get you
rich. Your company is not the next facebook. Do a startup some day sure, but
why do it right now?

~~~
eruditely
Alright my uncle told me to interview at Uber and I would need to pass the
interview to stand a chance but I should just study for that.

