
Teenagers are better behaved and less hedonistic (2018) - pjrule
https://www.economist.com/international/2018/01/10/teenagers-are-better-behaved-and-less-hedonistic-nowadays
======
krebs_liebhaber
16-year-old here. My experience is probably markedly different from most
teenagers in the US (I'm an immigrant who goes to a competitive school full of
other immigrants) but I find that, for the most part, this article hits the
nail on the head. High School is nothing like the usual media portrayal - I've
never heard anyone even talk about a party, nobody's doing anything stronger
than weed, nobody's fucking or even dating at all.

Smartphone use definitely has a negative effect. I'm in some APs, some Honors,
and some regular classes and the #1 difference I've observed between the kids
in each cohort is how often they're on their phones. The CP kids leave their
phones on their desks and are making out with the damn things whenever they
can, sometimes even when the teacher is trying to lecture them. The Honors
kids have them under their desks and only use them when they have nothing more
pressing to do. The AP kids have them on mute in their backpacks. (I leave
mine in my locker, and only use it to listen to music.)

Most of the anxiety is over college admissions - not necessarily to the Ivy
League (everyone knows that's just luck of the draw), but the "second-tier"
schools (Carnegie-Mellon, Rensselaer, Duke, Cornell, etc.) where over-
achieving can still net you a good chance of admission. There's a lot of focus
on "building your brand" and trying to "stand out" (make your life more
"interesting" in the narrow ways that look good on a college application). The
more technically-oriented kids are balls-deep in resume-driven development;
they follow the tutorial for every trendy tech buzzword possible (mostly data-
science and ML stuff) so that they can blog about it on their Squarespace-
generated portfolios. I'm a member of the FIRST Robotics Team and, like
everyone else there, I do absolutely nothing, because the team has 5 times
more people than it actually needs. I once witnessed the entire programming
subteam (about 20 people) spend 3 hours trying to flash an SD card.

The main thing I notice among my peers is an obsessive (borderline autistic)
focus on "getting in" and having good credentials. Enjoying your life and
doing things that you take pride in are secondary to the all-encompassing
drive to impress people who know nothing about you. I wish I could say I'm
above it all, but I've certainly internalized it to some extent - I feel a
nagging sense of guilt when playing video games, or reading books that don't
imply intellectual clout, or anything else that's internally rewarding but
"non-bloggable". If I had to characterize my generation with a pathology, it
would be exhibitionism.

~~~
matwood
Wow, how things have change from when I was a teen in HS in the early 90s. I
was a 'responsible' one because I had a job. Few people thought about 'getting
in' (IIRC the valedictorian went to the AF academy), but otherwise we all just
wanted to graduate and go to one of the 2 big state schools or the local
college. I was smart enough, i.e. paid attention in class, that I never had to
study (that caught up with me in college). Weekends were spent hanging out at
the beach and trying to find someone to buy us beer. Parties were common and
there were the occasional fist fights, but nothing too serious. It was
definitely a simpler time.

I think the documentation of a persons entire life from birth has removed the
opportunity for kids to make mistakes and learn while they are young. It's
unfortunate because I did a lot of dumb things as a kid, and while none of it
was too serious, I was able to learn lessons without having it necessarily
follow me around the rest of my life. Now they are all just entertaining
stories.

~~~
vostok
I would guess that more of this difference is explained by class/social
factors than by the passage of time.

~~~
nostrademons
Entirely possible, but there's also potential selection bias.

I was a teen in the late 90s, and was friends with a lot of the
druggie/stoner/party crowd. By and large, these people do not have kids,
because they can't afford to. A good many of them are dead now, either from
overdoses, or drug-related accidents (like crashing their car while going 100
mph while high), or suicide.

The 55 years of American history post-WW2 was a bubble, where people could get
away with a number of not-very-adaptive behaviors because the whole country
was on top of the world. The last 20 years has rapidly exposed this as a
bubble, and the folks who were swimming naked when the tide ran out didn't
leave offspring to be part of the next generation.

~~~
samatman
That's anecdotally interesting, but the numbers don't bear it out: there's a
consistent negative correlation between degree of educational attainment and
number of offspring.

~~~
nostrademons
That negative correlation exists only _between_ social groups, not within
social groups:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3449224/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3449224/)

If you look at only populations who were likely to go to college in the first
place - say, white (formerly) middle-class two-parent households, which is
what the bulk of my high-school friends were, there's a positive correlation
between educational attainment and fertility. Simpson's Paradox strikes
again...

------
nabla9
Finland has mandatory military service for males. So every year you most of
the young men (mostly age 18 to 20) into a controlled environment and go
through standardized testing and observation.

\- Physical fitness has gone down, overweight goes up.

\- Intelligence peaked among those who were born in 70's and has been in
slight decline last 18 years. Similar results can be seen in other developed
countries.

\- Anxiety disorders and depression have increased.

\- Social skills have gone up. Young men are more social and better at working
together than any time before.

\- At the same time there is small but growing group of young men with almost
no social skills. They can't get friends or maintain friendships or work in a
group.

~~~
101404
> Finland has mandatory military service for males.

How is that kind of institutionalized sexism still legal?

~~~
jandrese
Finland has a history of needing to fight off a much larger expansionist
neighbor. One who has recently (a few years ago) annexed more territory while
the rest of the world sat around and did nothing.

Or are you asking why they don't extend the mandatory service to women? The
reasons for that are somewhat historic and very _biotruth_. A country that
fights a devastating war that wipes out 90% of the men but keeps the women can
recover. A country that has 90% of the women wiped out but leaves the men is
completely screwed.

~~~
privateprofile
Israel has mandatory service for women and men, and has presently one of the
most advanced armed forces.

~~~
FrojoS
AFAIK, in Israel women serve less time and in less dangerous roles. The only
culture that I know of, which seems to have somewhat equal burden of war
fighting are the Peshmerga/Kurds.

------
franze
I became a young father with 19, after way too much party starting from 15. So
naturally I was concerned that my son would behave like me at that age. Or
even just 50%.

So I was kinda dissapaointed how well behaved he is now with 22. Mostly
interested in E-Sports, Tinder and his CRM job.

Said that, becoming a father at 19 was a great career move. Got a job making
websites in the dot-com area as I needed money and was very motivated.

So when the first education programms in Europe started ad websites,
webprogramming.I had already 7 years experience. There is value in a non
standard CV.

~~~
AndrewKemendo
The older I get the more I'm convinced that having kids young is the right
decision.

I had my first daughter when I was 24 and now that I'm entering my prime
earning years I don't have to worry about child care or being around 24/7 the
same way I did when my kids were babies. I also have less "free time" now than
when I was in college and I had way less than most college kids.

It sounds counterintutive in this day and age but I think having kids at the
tail end of high school or early college might be the best way to do it.

~~~
restalis
_" I'm entering my prime earning years I don't have to worry about child care
or being around 24/7 the same way I did when my kids were babies. I also have
less «free time» now than when I was in college"_

Although not clear how much of that free time "less" means, I wish to point
out that if you're a male (as I'd guess from your nickname), your contribution
to the education of your descendants becomes the most useful after kid's
childhood. Progressing as teenagers, they need less and less love and start
needing more and more guidance and advice. That's the period where maternal
inherent love and affection progressively looses its value. As time goes, when
facing problems, the teenager would rather receive insight (which is something
expected to be had from a father) instead of consolation. That may be your
most needed paternal contribution of the entire offspring upbringing.

~~~
AndrewKemendo
Well by free I mean basically out to see shows and go the bar and hang around
watching movies etc.

------
namelosw
Kids are so less adventurous nowadays.

I'm not sure about teenagers, but for college students, it's more obvious. I
believe it's because society is less forgiving - young people spent a ton of
money or taking loans, work hard at school, cannot find jobs that are not
stressful and underpaid. Or couldn't even find jobs at all. One step wrong and
they would be screwed.

~~~
softwaredoug
As a parent, I've noticed the biggest problem that prevents "free range" kids
is other adults without kids.

Those of us WITH kids relish getting the kids outside and out of our hair. But
those without kids frequently are calling the parents to complain our children
are roaming the neighborhood, perhaps on their property. Or they fear these
kids will create problems. Usually, however, they're just kids being kids.
Going on adventures & learning to resolve their own problems without a grownup
hovering over them.

I think the issue is the proportion of adults with kids has declined, so
parents run into non-parents all the time that don't enjoy seeing kids roaming
around. Whereas when I was a kid, most adults were more understanding.

~~~
pier25
I don't know.

In Spain kids are indeed less adventurous than my generation, specially in the
cities, but I've never heard about someone complaining about kids roaming.

I think the number of alone activities kids can do these days to keep
themselves entertained (videogames, internet, netflix, etc) is a much more
influential factor.

~~~
Izkata
> but I've never heard about someone complaining about kids roaming.

It's a thing:

[https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2018/09/05/mom...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2018/09/05/mom-
parenting-police-free-range-neglect-children-column/1156144002/)

[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/14/parent...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/14/parents-
investigated-letting-children-walk-alone/25754193/)

[https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/living/feat-maryland-free-
ran...](https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/living/feat-maryland-free-range-
parenting-family-under-investigation-again/index.html)

[https://nypost.com/2015/04/13/cops-coerced-our-kids-into-
squ...](https://nypost.com/2015/04/13/cops-coerced-our-kids-into-squad-car-
free-range-parents/)

Apparently this is somehow seen as neglect, a type of child abuse, by others.

~~~
st1ck
> In Spain

GP says. What you describe is very much an American phenomenon. At least I
haven't heard anything similar happening in the rest of the world.

------
searchableguy
I am also curious about the effect of "private" communication channels for
kids.

They can be hidden to parents and friends irl but still remain public online.
I have seen many groups of depressed teens online without adults or someone
with experience in them. They all encourage each other to be more depressed
because they all have a similarly sad life. The only perspective that gets
shared is that life sucks and it isn't getting better.

I think before the digital age, it must have been hard to do it irl or not?

~~~
notRobot
> They all encourage each other to be more depressed because they all have a
> similarly sad life.

Huh. Not saying this isn't true, but just sharing my experience:

I have never seen this. Instead, I've seen groups of teenagers trying to
support and uplift each other.

~~~
krebs_liebhaber
This has been my experience. If my parents saw what I said/posted to online
friends, they would be utterly horrified, and probably feel a sense of guilt
because they could never be that intimate with me.

------
_jal
Another vote for the Lead Hypothesis.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–crime_hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–crime_hypothesis)

~~~
hckr_news
This was my first thought.

~~~
BurningFrog
Mine too!

It's crazy that almost a century of human history might have been so
fundamentally influenced by this one invisible factor.

~~~
WillDaSilva
Makes you wonder what other hidden environmental factors might be affecting
us.

------
sysbin
The fact is competition has been increasing every generation at a ridiculous
rate. I like to think society would desire to remove competition as a
requirement for everyone and allow basic needs being supplied for a somewhat
enjoyable life.

Sadly, I think it will take two generations of travesty before anything
substantial happens if at all. I predict a lot of suicide & homelessness if
not for some disaster and that wipes out a good portion of the population.
Kids aren't dumb nowadays with social media showing them how much of an
advantage being born into good genetics or financial privilege happens to be.

I assume a lot of progress will happen regardless. The newest generation has
everything at their fingertips. They get to read past experiences and how to
approach things while the information is criticized more so than previous
decades.

~~~
luckylion
> I assume a lot of progress will happen regardless. The newest generation has
> everything at their fingertips. They get to read past experiences and how to
> approach things while the information is criticized more so than previous
> decades.

What? Yeah, sure, it's easier to open a tab and google something than to get a
book from the public library, but I don't think _that 's_ what's stopped
people from learning about the past.

~~~
sysbin
information is criticized more so than previous

------
apatters
They are more likely to commit suicide as well.

~~~
searchableguy
I can give some perspective on that. Ignoring the increase in academic
pressure and hungry sharks in education (those shady coaching institutes
everywhere making you grind 5 hours after school for a single exam).

Parents haven't caught up with how their kids interact with the world. Social
media is huge for teens and internet which only now some parents are catching
up to but they are on Facebook and Facebook is cancer and no one I know in
younger generation uses it. I think they are exposed to a lot more information
and their parents or schools are unable to help them process it.

Kids are uncertain, worried about things their parents can't relate with.
Imagine feeling down because your online account got bullied by other adults
on reddit because you expressed a perfectly normal but dumb opinion. People
don't think about age when they are typing a response online, they just think
the other person ought to have "common sense".

Few are forced into linkedin/other cancer and build online presence because
they think it will lead them to more opportunities and they are probably not
wrong. Various recruitment agencies seems to have gone fully online with
social media/email spam.

Twitter is not healthy for a teenager. Linkedin may not be either (I saw some
insane CEO posts). I mean, to give you something to compare. Have you seen
marketing posts with misleading titles such as $100 and 6 months for a 3000%
return on customer acquisition? (Which turned out to be fraud and fabricated).
Huge amount of fabrication in their idols now. They cling to youtubers, Elon
Musk, and all the exceptions. Their feed is full of them while seemingly their
irl interaction is less than ideal.

Some will have a distorted view due to huge differences in the life they live
online and people they interact with. Previously, it was less visible as
people tend to live in the same economic class neighborhoods.

They will know about all the countries with things they can't have in their
own. They will be more aware of it but they lack any political power and
position to change things affecting them.

Surveillance is pushed on them involuntarily which tends to change their
behaviour and normalize a specific corporate personality over time. Compare
that to being in open office or public speaking 24/7 of your life.

Misinformation is pushed from top to bottom instead. I think it was always
like that but now kids are more aware, they will feel remorseful and
insignificant if they can't do anything. Imagine having parents believing
insane rumours on Facebook and stopping you from getting vaccinated. I haven't
seen many kids who are anti vaxxers but I have seen enough adults.

~~~
Reelin
> Twitter is not healthy for a teenager.

Twitter isn't healthy for _anyone_. Neither is the vast majority of social
media. The way in which most sites currently structure interactions lends
itself quite naturally to misinformation, extreme polarization, and resulting
anxiety.

I've personally witnessed the effect on reasonably well educated adults in my
life; I can only imagine how much worse it must be for those with less general
experience and knowledge.

~~~
saagarjha
As someone not on Twitter, I do see an awful lot of good content on the
platform. By not engaging with it directly I can usually skip out on or ignore
the worst parts of it.

~~~
a_bonobo
I'm a researcher and Twitter has been an enormous boon for my work; within my
field, most 'big' researchers are active on Twitter, they know me now, I know
them, I'm always up-to-date with the research (way easier than following 500
RSS feeds) and the 'trends' within my field. It's also the best avenue for
discussing anything work-related, at least 3 international collaborations of
mine have started this way. I have a few thousand followers and I follow a few
thousand people across different time-zones. Again, an enormous boon if you
know how to use it and put in time up-front, people know who I am even though
I'm only an early-career researcher. I follow mostly scientists across all
career-stages and politicians with power over work-related fields.

~~~
saagarjha
One of the best parts of Twitter is that it can give random people a voice and
connect then with people who are often hard to get to otherwise. One of the
worst parts of Twitter is that can give random people a voice and connect then
with people who are often hard to get to otherwise.

As someone without a Twitter account, I miss out on a huge amount of
conversation that IMHO can add productive and interesting insights to, even
though I’m not well-known like the participants might be. With time, they
might come to know me as well, something which is basically impossible outside
of the platform. I have heard that it is also a great place to find jobs or
the right people through “the Twitter network” where people are known for what
they tend to be good at and people can point you around to where you need to
be.

On the other hand, having the ability to get random people to interact with
you is basically inviting harassment and polarization. The very benefit I just
mentioned of having a “personality” in Twitter which people see you as means
that you’ll always be dragged into any conflict along those lines, and
anything you say has the potential to blow up in a bad way.

I, from outside the platform, have a much harder time getting any of those
benefits I mentioned: fewer people read or look at my stuff, I think, since I
publish it elsewhere; I have hundreds of things I leave unsaid because I can’t
interact with the platform besides observe it; getting in contact with people
who share my interests is much more difficult because I’m often cold emailing
them or collaborating with them on something before they know me. I don’t get
to know about interesting work opportunities very often. But on the flip side,
I don’t get dragged into pointless arguments, at least on that platform, so I
guess I’ve just been making that tradeoff ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

~~~
searchableguy
Hey, I see you everywhere at least.

~~~
saagarjha
Thanks for the reminder that I spend too much time on Hacker News ;)

------
qqssccfftt
Teenagers have no chance to be badly behaved and significantly less future
prospects unless they dedicate their lives to wageslavery as young as possible

------
DrOctagon
Hedonism doesn’t need to be conflated with bad behaviour or rebelliousness. I
think a splash if it now and then before you have too many responsibilities
should be encouraged.

------
topkai22
A while back (like 2012) I saw a paper making the claim that video games
reduce violence. The idea was that video games are so popular amongst the
teenage and young men that they end up not getting into trouble on the street.
It seems like smartphones are an extension of this observed trend.

------
anotheryou
The most adult teenagers I know all have seen shit and just skipped being
teenagers. It sadly catches up with them.

~~~
new2628
Do you mean "they have seen nothing" or "they have seen things", as in bad (or
meaningful or powerful) things?

~~~
graphpapa
Guessing the latter. It’s a common expression in uk english, not sure about
elsewhere.

~~~
tonyarkles
Also common in Canada. And that definitely jives with my late 90s teenage
years, although nuanced. The kids who had the most shit in their lives seemed
to go either way: either they put on their grown up pants too young, or they
just gave up, figured out the bare minimum income necessary to live, and
smoked pot and played video games all day. It’s anecdotal of course and not a
broad population study, but it’s how my group of misfit friends seemed to go.
I was part of the “grew up and got a job and got my shit together at 15”
group, but stayed in touch with the other half of my friends for a while and
partied with them occasionally (pretty much until cocaine started showing up
at the parties, at which point I thought... nope!)

------
bambataa
I would be interested to know what teen film people consider most
representative of their experience. I love “Dazed and Confused” because it
seems like the archetypical US high school experience. I was shocked that the
director intended it to convey the boredom of that lifestyle because it seemed
approx 1000 times more exciting that my teenager lifestyle in the 00s.
American Pie was popular at that time but faaar from reality.

I wonder what films teenagers these days relate to.

~~~
Memosyne
I would have to recommend watching Exam (2009)[1]. Being a teenager these days
feels like taking an exam where the questions are invisible; everyone is
suspicious of or hates you; the timer is ticking down in front of you; and
you're constantly being monitored by the cameras whilst simultaneously having
to find ways to game the system.

1-
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exam_(2009_film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exam_\(2009_film\))

------
abhayb
It's been 10 years since I was a well behaved and anhedonic teenager. Not only
did I fit what the newspaper describes but I actually read the The Economist
cover to obituary (the obit is the best part). Now that I'm past that it seems
the "wild years" don't so much disappear as move back half a decade.

------
blunderkid
In 30 years if not sooner, humanity will look back and be horrified with this
time when we let a whole vulnerable generation fall prey to social media and
hyper connectivity while parents bought stocks of the very same recreational
drug manufacturers and peddlers who hooked our children to their product.

------
Zenst
Be mostly due to many things have been curtailed by laws, bylaws and other
restrictions.

However, online has been an avenue of teenage expression that seems to of
taken up the slack in many area's.

But hard to compare say 70's childhood experience with todays without
factoring in that many aspects of life changed.

------
dcftoapv
I graduated from high school 2010 and spent most of my time sneaking around my
parents' back to find alcohol and get in a quicky with my girlfriend. I guess
you could say it set me back, but I was never on the ivy track in the first
place. I can confidently say that I have a wildy more successful career than
our valedictorian and I work for our salutatorian's biggest competitor at the
same career level.

I am not nearly as smart as either of those people, but if you have drive then
you'll turn out just fine. Getting into Harvard is not the end all, and I
wouldn't trade those years for anything.

I agree that grades are money, but burning out at Harvard will set you back
more than 'only' getting into BC.

------
sneilan1
I grew up at the beginning of the consumer internet.

My parents would tell me to go play outside with the other kids but AOL had
just peaked and no one was outside. People were captivated.

------
fallingfrog
Let’s not forget that this is all taking place in an environment where wages
are going down, the environment is getting worse- this generation is likely to
make less money and have a much more difficult life than, say, the boomers.
There is no stability anywhere, no guarantees of anything. Once upon a time
you could skip college and still get a union job at a mill or something that
would allow you to buy a house and support a family comfortably. That’s gone
now. That has to be part of it.

I often hear boomers complain that kids aren’t taking enough personal
responsibility or that they’re entitled and it just makes me crazy. They are
growing up in a _much harder world_ than the one the boomers faced and it’s
not their fault at all.

------
ge96
Graduated in 2010, immediately went to university didn't really know how
school/finance worked(personal fault). Just went for phys/eng dual major...
failed out(personal problem). I had things in my favor too eg. poor person
grants. I picked up debt, I was not into computers/coding before this, it was
like a chore to do a C++ class and just did what I needed to get by... luckily
the thought of getting rich through making websites/ad revenue entered my mind
in 2013 or so and I learned how make websites "full stack" mean while being
unaware of sql-injection, xss and trivial stuff like that. My website ideas
were dumb as hell but I still learned(LAMP at the time). A few people helped
me out a lot Quick is one guy, but yeah, I try to return the favor now/help
people asking questions.

Anyway I'm an SE now, not quite 6 figures, no degree... I don't know if I
lucked out or what... but not having a degree is always on my mind but it does
seem to boil down to competence and other possible avenues eg. freelance or
your own businesses... I'm still not out of debt but if my life continues I
should get out soon.

Just funny as I kept dreading my college days ending because my GPA was bad, I
had debt and I didn't know how I was going to make it. I had so little clue
about life back then... initially I was washing plates and what not, now the
amount of money I make for my area is nuts... I can't imagine failing/going
back... I don't live in extraordinary means but hard to imagining making 1/4 a
1/3 of what I make per hour.

Oh 96 is not indicative of my age I just choose that random number, I'm in my
later 20's though

I'm pursuing freedom now (FiRe) as the fear of losing my job is always in the
back of my mind/having to live on some schedule too... I don't need much.

------
gaspoweredcat
id say this is very true, but im not sure its for the better, many seem to
have totally missed out on having fun at all while growing up

~~~
Cthulhu_
That's a bit judgmental and err, nostalgic? "Back in my day" kinda thing. I
mean they still have fun, it's just different from what you grew up with.

------
foldr
This generation has fully internalized consumer capitalism. Music is about
success, not dropping out.

 _Edit_ : See e.g.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22985678](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22985678)
in this thread.

~~~
rubidium
This. Capitalism and consumerism reign. Nobody is interested in “fighting the
machine” or even aware of what it is.

~~~
wideasleep1
I receive plenty (and expected) downvotes any time I mention fighting 'the
man/machine'...this is simply NOT the audience for such content. Indeed, there
are few places on the interwebs where this is even welcome. It is still a
struggle even in the venues the discussion is welcome, especially if you're 'a
Boomer' or GenX'r...we are just the wrong tribe at present.

------
aaomidi
I was raised as a nudist (I'm in my 20s now) and that really helped during my
teen years to keep me "focused".

This doesn't mean I was focused on my studies or anything. But it did mean I
generally gave far less shits about peer pressure than my friends at the time.

It's something I highly recommend if you have a close relationship with your
immediate family. Let the inhibitions fall and allow the kids to realize they
don't have to keep up with everyone.

------
TausAmmer
Everyone wants a child to be a responsible grown up adult.

Stolen childhood.

~~~
dataduck
For almost the entirety of human history, 12 was old enough to get a job and
look after a family. It's modernity that's the aberration here. Our obsession
with keeping children immature has nothing to do with their well-being, and
everything to do with adults deriving a sick emotional satisfaction from it. I
think history will judge our obsession with keeping children from growing up
in the same way we judge foot binding in ancient China.

The anomie that teenagers experience is a result of them having nothing
meaningful to do. Those that have meaningful work to do, even in their
education, don't suffer nearly such teenage angst, and are much happier for it
in both the short and long term.

~~~
watwut
> For almost the entirety of human history, 12 was old enough to get a job and
> look after a family.

And a lot of those kids ended badly, exploited and literally had no future.
The people who could afford it, did not had their 12 years old working in
factories nor being responsible for "looking after a family".

In good times in family farms, the kids contributed to work basically from 5
years old (and yes, 5 years old had higher incidents rates then they have
now). But they were not treated as adults at 12 at all.

~~~
tensor
The ultra wealthy in that time never looked after a family as kids or adults.
They had servants who did. That was not and is not "normal", it's a weird edge
case.

~~~
watwut
There was also middle class and people who are not wealthy, but can afford to
met have 12 years old responsible for whole family.

------
twomoretime
After decades of increasingly rebellious movements, it seems like the last few
have been rebellion for the sake of rebellion - progress for the sake of
progress. Perhaps this is the pendulum swinging back.

~~~
searchableguy
I think adults are just too oppressive these days. Expecting their kids to do
10x they did at that age.

\- concerned teenager

~~~
johnchristopher
Indeed, a lot of people here seem to be gifted with 6 years old writing their
own lisp compiler in minecraft ("and they have fun !"). ^^

~~~
cknoxrun
I believe it is more than just a shift in parenting.

I am a parent of a 7 year old. The expectations I place on him are to work
hard when faced with a task, and don't give up too easily. In terms of
activities, the only requirements are swimming (as a life skill, not as a
competition), and some kind of musical exposure (something I feel I lacked as
a child). He is also required to keep screen time to a reasonable level.

Otherwise, he is free to play when he wants in an unstructured way, be as
creative as he wants building things at his own volition, and is super
independent.

However, I am still completely floored at his knowledge of the world compared
to my wife and I at his age. I recall in grade 1 being just generally dazed
and confused. My son and his peers just know so much more about the world due
to technology that it is honestly mind-boggling. It is like speaking with
little adults sometimes. Obviously the emotional maturity is still that of a 7
year old (actually I would say lower for my son), but his grasp on reality is
extremely mature, and I don't think he is the exception.

I believe technology has changed our children completely. They are smarter
than ever before, and yearn for more constantly (as we do, addicted to
information on our devices). My son is constantly pressuring me to "teach him
to code" and I have not said a word about it, or given in to that request yet
as I think he needs more time to just play and explore the natural world.

I can only conclude that things have changed drastically for children, and it
is hard to keep up. There are obviously go-getter parents out there, wanting
their kids to be superstars, but I don't know if that is the general trend.

------
asdff
They also seem to be more depressed. I wonder if there is a relation towards
the continued march on restricting behavior and mental health?

------
laretluval
The species is becoming more and more domesticated.

------
achow
Non-paywall link for folks who are not privileged enough to have subscriptions
to all the publications that matter..

[https://outline.com/JWArFB](https://outline.com/JWArFB)

------
emmelaich
I suspect some of the difference is due to having lead-free fuel these days.
And less pollution generally.

------
wideasleep1
We had Pink Floyd and lawn darts. Damn I'm old.

------
njovin
Y hub

------
gridlockd
I knew there was something deeply wrong with kids these days!

------
dolguldur
The data on drinking might have to account for change in demographics with
more muslims among teenagers than previously.

------
kazinator
Teens typically look up to pop culture produced by people who are about ten
years their senior.

For current teens, that consists of vapid millennials.

No music, no cool behavior, no new anything.

The only cool stuff teens can find is from their grandparents' generation or
older.

So then all they can do is go to YouTube and post a comment under some 80's
video "Sigh, I was born at the wrong time" and then go back to behaving
nicely.

~~~
throw149102
> No Music

I presume you're not a fan of lofi? K-pop? Dubstep? Video game soundtracks, in
general?

There's also an element here of how people express their tastes: Now a days,
everyone has infinite access on Spotify/Youtube/Apple music. So I would say
that music has become very decentralized. Anyone can put something on
Soundcloud or Bandcamp, and anyone can listen to it. So the label of "pop" is
maybe not as descriptive as it could be.

> No Cool behavior

I want to say something sardonic and rude like "So what, like smoking and
getting pregnant as teenagers and raping people?" But I literally have no idea
what you mean by cool behavior, and that's what my mind goes to when you say
"cool". What do you really mean when you say "cool behavior"?

> no new anything

What do you think of twitch.tv? Or Esports? I presume your thoughts are not
positive?

------
ReptileMan
So for the first time in world history the people that complain about
"youngsters these days are worse" are right.

~~~
Cthulhu_
At least in the history as far as we can remember, yeah; another HN article a
while ago said that it's likely that for the first time since the industrial
revolution, the young generation will be worse off than the previous ones
whereas before that it was always an upwards trend. I mean we've had three
serious financial crises in our lifetime.

~~~
ReptileMan
Still not a reason to be tame.

