
Modern Minimalism - thepatshea
http://thepatshea.tumblr.com/post/63713144071/modern-minimalism
======
bnegreve
> _I have an 11-inch Macbook Air and an iPhone 5. No other devices._

For some reason, I knew this was going to pop up somewhere in the list.

Smartphones are arguably one of the biggest gadget of the century. And they
can be used to watch TV, movies, read news, books, as GPS, as game device and
so on.

So why iPhone and no soap?

~~~
milonguero
hipster logic 101

~~~
bnegreve
Creating temporary accounts to post harsh comments is also something that I
have hard time to understand.

------
vibragiel
> You don’t need any of those soapy substances. It’s all a big lie perpetrated
> by people who want your money. If you eat/sleep/exercise properly, you will
> almost never get sick and your body will never smell bad. You won’t need to
> overcompensate by wasting money on soapy substances.

[citation needed]

~~~
adlpz
Yeah I mean, it's not like the advent of soap and the generalisation of it's
use (along general hygiene) revolutionised the world or anything.

All those people cleaning their clothes with soap on the river in the 16th
century were clearly being lied by corporations who wanted their money.

~~~
jkscm
And there are more than 7 billion people in this world. In japan, sick people
wear face mask to minimize the spread of their sickness. We use vaccines to
protect us.

Humans are not perfect creatures.

On a side note: does he at least use soap when he goes to the bathroom, you
know, to have a shit?

~~~
MetaCosm
... They get vaccines in Japan. I can't tell if your wording was AWFUL or you
think people in Japan don't get vaccines.

------
NhanH
As someone who has a pretty simple life (my most valuable possession would
probably be ~100kgs of books, stacked in 2 fairly small boxes), I'd love to
know a couple of practical details in your life (if it isn't too snooping,
that is)! The question will be fairly personal, because pretty much most other
stuffs won't be essential.

Do you take a bath daily? How do you brush your teeth? You seems pretty young,
and things like teeth cavity might not be a problem yet, but it's hard to say
what will happen in a few year.

Why did you make a decision to not have any soapy substance? It seems like a
single small bottle of something that can be used both as shampoo and body
soap would accomplish the same thing. And bathing after sweating without soap
just never seems to work for me.

And are you sure that you're not smelly? I'm honestly wondering since it's
fairly hard to for one to detect our own smell - we just get used to it.

~~~
manmal
I noticed myself that if I wash daily, I would not need shower gel. I use it
nonetheless, but I could go days without soap (or the perfume contained).
EXCEPT if I drink coffee - that makes my sweat somewhat smelly (you probably
won't notice it though, only I do) :)

Toothpaste: There are people who get cavities while using toothpaste 3x a day,
while I haven't gotten any cavities in the last few years although I have
limited brushing to 1x per day (evening). I had minor tooth surgery once, but
that seems to have stemmed from an overzealous dentist drilling too fast into
a minor cavity which he should just have left alone (causing shock within the
tooth, leading to inflammation). But, I'm not sure whether I would ever go
entirely without toothpaste. I might research into natural substitutes with
similar chemical compounds.

Deo: You certainly don't need it if you eat clean and shower every day.

Shampoo: Some people report that omitting shampoo works well, but there's a
nasty transition period of a few weeks in which you might look like you dipped
your head in grease. Reportedly, skalp skin reduces the amount of fat secreted
if you stop constantly washing it away.

~~~
bjourne
> Shampoo: Some people report that omitting shampoo works well, but there's a
> nasty transition period of a few weeks in which you might look like you
> dipped your head in grease. Reportedly, skalp skin reduces the amount of fat
> secreted if you stop constantly washing it away.

Who are those people? I'm genuinely interested. I got rashes that are made
worse by shampoo.

~~~
__--__
I've been shampoo free for three years, now. It's like the parent says. My
transition period lasted 4 weeks and I wore a hat the entire time. After that,
my hair was the softest it's been in its life. No fuss, no muss. I wash it
daily with water, when I shower. I use neither shampoo nor conditioner, just
water.

Here's an article[1] by a guy who did it as well. He was linked on boingboing
in 2009 and 2011. His site also has several updates, as much as a year
later[2]. I think one of the boingboing guys did it too. There are links to
the boingboing articles in the first link[1].

On the soap issue, I remember reading a study conducted a while back about the
difference in bacteria counts after going to the bathroom. They compared not
washing to washing with water to washing with soap and water. There was one
particular bacteria that was only effectively eliminated when soap was used.
Apparently, it was small enough to hide deep enough in the folds of your skin
that water alone couldn't touch it. So, I do wash with soap after going to the
bathroom, but I don't use soap on my body when I shower.

[1] [http://freetheanimal.com/2009/12/paleo-i-dont-care-i-like-
no...](http://freetheanimal.com/2009/12/paleo-i-dont-care-i-like-no-soap-no-
shampoo.html) [2] [http://freetheanimal.com/2010/02/no-soap-or-poo-
update.html](http://freetheanimal.com/2010/02/no-soap-or-poo-update.html)

------
SandB0x
Getting flashes of [http://www.theonion.com/articles/im-just-a-free-spirit-
who-i...](http://www.theonion.com/articles/im-just-a-free-spirit-who-is-
entirely-financially,33905/)

~~~
thepatshea
Hey guys, I've posted a follow-up video to answer a lot of your questions
about my modern minimalism. I hope this helps clear up some confusion.

Video:
[http://thepatshea.tumblr.com/post/63809364097](http://thepatshea.tumblr.com/post/63809364097)
| Discuss the video:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6538136](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6538136)

------
theboywho
It's funny how people who say they are minimalists start listing the things
they don't have in the "physical" life arguing they are not needed. But then,
they have an iCloud account, a twitter, facebook, flickr, instagram, reddit,
gmail, you name it account. How about a minimalist virtual life too, where all
you have is an email account? an e-minimalist?

I think a minimalist life should be more about "using" less (and accomplishing
more) than about plain raw "owning" less.

~~~
goo
I think the concept of "e-minimalism" is great.

I think it is useful to recognize that "stuff" is a system, and as a user, the
system of "stuff" requires some maintenance, is at risk of failure (by theft,
loss or damage), though despite the drawbacks does provide benefits that make
life better. My water filter makes water taste better; my sweet chair is very
comfortable. My car drives me to the beach to surf regularly. Some stuff
requires greater scrutiny -- the high maintenance demanded by the car in terms
of time and money indicates that I would be wise to carefully consider if the
benefits outweigh the costs.

Technology systems can be measured similarly -- do the costs (time, money,
cognitive load, opportunity cost, presently and in the future), outweigh the
benefits. Making that measurement is difficult, and our minds are not exactly
rational actors when it comes to deciding to adopt technology -- we are easily
swayed by social factors, and it is hard to measure the future cognitive load
and opportunity cost of a technology system. Being an "e-minimalist" could be
a useful heuristic.

Since benefits of "stuff" and systems can vary subjectively, I think
minimalism (as a philosophy or hobby) is a subset of a larger identity
question from the individual -- "what is my relationship to the systems at
play in my life?" Attempting to optimize that relationship usually leads to
more happiness than ignoring the question.

For some people, minimalism for "stuff" is a solid optimization. E-minimalism
makes lots of sense, too.

------
phaer
Out of interest: Where do you stay? Do you rent a flat/house? If so: How do
keep it clean? What do you eat? Are you out-sourcing your food production? I
am asking because, the smartphone discussion aside, i find it questionable to
speak of minimalism if you just trade most of reproductive labor for money. I
guess most of (single, childless) readers of HN could just live in an hotel
suite without owning anything beside an laptop. I am sorry if that sounds
mean, i am no native speaker, i mean it sincerly; 1 month ago i moved to
another country to live here for one year and everything i took with me fit in
a small backpack. I am still living quite minimalistic on 25m², but i have
stuff like a broom, some kitchen equipment, even two beds - one for guests -
and an external monitor. Oh, and soap ;)

~~~
spectrum
I am sure this guy is still living with his parents judging by the stuff he
owns. If you live on your own you NEED things like a refrigerator, a stove,
pots and pans, cleaning supplies, kitchen knife, lamps, a table, chairs, the
list can go on and on.

~~~
ygra
Not if you can afford eating out for every meal.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Would that not go against his claim that this all saves him time. Cooking a
meal at home would be much less time consuming than having to go to a
restaurant and sit doing nothing while they cook your food for every meal.

------
telephonetemp
Some of the attitudes in the minimalist movement strike me as cargo-cult. What
I mean by that is that they seem aimed at optimizing the how-much-stuff-you-
own metric itself rather than what it's supposed to be a proxy for (lack of
mental burden, control over your life). This is tantamount to assuming that
complexity is inherently unmanageable, which I disagree with.

Venkatesh Rao has a good post on the matter somewhere.

Edit: As for the link posted (whether or not it's genuine), I wonder about

>I don’t have a bed or a pillow. I sleep in a small sleeping bag.

Is this healthy in the long run?

------
stiff
Minimalism or not, I would like to expand on one of the points - most
cosmetics in wide circulation today are really terrible. If you look up their
ingredients and look at chemical properties of those, it's all about
optimizing the technological process to be as cheap as possible and producing
short-term pleasant sensations for the customer, health considerations being
completely absent.

Basically it's an example of a problem with market economy that probably
occurs in other fields too sometimes - customers themselves do not always
notice long term effects of using bad chemicals on their skin and are apt to
buy products that smell nice, lather or distribute easily and so on, so almost
all producers end up producing products that give a good first impression at
the cost of being harmful in the long term. For example, almost every shampoo
or fluid soap contains some form of SLS, because it's cheap and because it
makes for a nice emulsion, despite research showing it is apt to cause skin
irritation. Also popular are mineral oils, which is quite an euphemism for a
byproduct of petroleum distillation. If you consider this just the next quack
fad, talk to someone who uses some of those chemicals in a lab.

~~~
LaGrange
Actually, I recently tried to verify the claims about horrible consequences of
SLS from anything other than semi-conspiracy-theory sites. I might have missed
something, but what I've found was boiled down to it being pretty much a non-
issue. What it did turn out, though, is that we use too high doses of soaps
and shampoos in general, and they are actually intended to be used in
minuscule amounts.

Also, "byproduct of petroleum distillation!" is the new "unnatural!" is the
new "if got intended X to Y, he would Z!".

~~~
stiff
_What it did turn out, though, is that we use too high doses of soaps and
shampoos in general, and they are actually intended to be used in minuscule
amounts_

Well, isn't this a confirmation of what I have said? Like producers of
cosmetics encourage us on a regular basis to use up as little of their
products as possible? I like what Chomsky said on a somewhat similar topic:

 _If I 'm analyzing capitalism and I point out that General Motors tries to
maximize profit, that's not a conspiracy theory. That's analysis._

It's not a conspiracy theory that companies try to maximize profit, in fact
that's one of the basic assumptions of free market economy. I don't even
ascribe any particularly cynical viewpoints to any of the individual people
involved, but in any large company responsibility becomes so diluted it's easy
for things that are quite bad for society in general to just happen without
anyone being left with much remorse. I think it's quite rational to expect
that markets that are not regulated to some extent might degrade in those
nasty ways.

~~~
LaGrange
Not for any kind of generous reasons, but probably to avoid problems with
consumer organizations, but I recall most packaging mentioning "small amount".
Might be an European thing, though.

------
srl
Since nobody else has pointed this out: the rest of the guy's website reveals
him to be a stand-up comic. The ridiculousness of this post is intentional.

------
m23io
Wait... is this a parody? Please tell me it's satire.

A "minimalist" shouldn't need a fucking smartphone and laptop.

~~~
nmeofthestate
I thought it was pretty obviously satire, but so many people are taking it
seriously here; now I'm 98% sure it's satire.

~~~
autonomy77
It's satirizing the likes of Ev Bogue who actually used to post nonsense like
that. I believe Bogue has changed from minimalist snobbery to "pretend to be a
techie" snobbery now though. And I think he changed his name too.

------
adamnemecek
Ugh, not this holier-than-thou minimalism meme again.

~~~
Sarien
I have tons of possessions and when I don't feel like it I just don't maintain
them! Guess what, plants aside my possessions don't give a shit and I have
just the same time gain.

~~~
adamnemecek
That's nice but the most important question is, did you write a pretentious
blog post about your life style on your tumblr?

------
killwhitey
I find it a little curious that most commenters here are focusing on his
mention of not using soap, but not asking about how his source of income,
food, or shelter. That iPhone 5 comes with a monthly bill and requires
recharging daily.

~~~
interstitial
Clearly, his soap bills were hundreds of dollars a month. Now that he's quit
his soap habit, he's got enough for the iPhone. For shelter, he built a yurt
out of soap wrappers and self-esteem.

------
kfk
Meh. I am in the process of buying a foldable kayak. I plan to kayak in
Patagonia in 2015 and I crossed Poland, Austria and Slovakia with a canoe the
last 2 years.

Point is: my kayak won't fit in a bag. Then what? I should buy and iPhone and
spend my time on fb? He doesn't even have an ebook, does he read?

I do consider myself a minimalist, but in the way I embrace only the minimum
to live a full life, not just for the sake of it. You can't seriously think
you can spend all your life like that. What will you talk about with your
friends if you have nothing going on? What will fulfill your life growing old?
You can sit and think only so much.

~~~
kal00ma
I'm very interested in doing a long distance river trip in Europe. Can I ask
which route you took through those countries? Was dealing with locks an issue
or did you just carry your canoe past them?

~~~
kfk
Hey, great why don't you email me? Do you have experience with kayaking? We
are planning to go kayaking in the Guadalquivir in May if you are interested.
Otherwise, I can share with you our itineraries (with locks) for the Danube
(Passau-Bratisalva) and the Vistula (Cracow-Gdansk).

To your question. The routes we look are river only, meaning, we pick a river
and we just keep going. Locks usually are not an issue, you either go pass
them as you said (so pack well and get a cart 1) or you use a sluice.

The thing I would really be careful with is falls. Even 2m falls can be
dangerous. We got very close (like 5m from it) to a 10m water fall in Vienna
on the Neu Donau. It was not in our itinerary because under a bridge and not
visible from google earth.

1 Couldn't resist: [http://www.vanwal.nl/photos/albums/vistula-
june-2013-/img_06...](http://www.vanwal.nl/photos/albums/vistula-
june-2013-/img_0654_.jpg)

~~~
k-mcgrady
The site you've linked to is throwing up a security warning in Chrome.

~~~
kfk
Solved

------
k-mcgrady
This is just doing shit so you can call yourself something. I didn't have a
bed or pillow for 3 months. It was uncomfortable and although I got used to it
I woke up with neck/back pain every morning. It's a stupid thing to do on
purpose.

As for not using soap - please start again. I don't want to be shaking your
hand after you've been to the bathroom. And how about in hospitals? Do you
make an exception to wash your hands with the provided soap before entering a
ward?

Also, getting rid of soap, socks, and a bed does not give you more time.

------
teh_klev
I feel a dose of Poe's law being administered here. You're being harvested for
new stand up material.

~~~
telephonetemp
Note that the OP does stand-up himself. He may or may not be pulling a Kaufman
on us here.

------
collypops
Every time someone tries to convince me they've found some awesome way to live
their life (or do anything) and hints that they've tapped into something
undiscovered, or something we'd all be doing if we weren't so blinded or busy
being tricked by 'the man', I have to remind myself that we're not all the
same.

It needs to be repeated. We're not all the same.

To think that we are the same and make decisions based on that assumption (and
use that as a basis for any kind of advice) is at best, foolish, and at most,
dangerous.

Here's my ridiculous strawman (which is for entertainment more than argument,
like any good strawman):

I don't need a wheelchair. The average person doesn't need a wheelchair. So
let's do away with wheelchairs!

Look, sure, I've got a lot of stuff that I don't need and shouldn't need. Upon
accepting this truth I didn't dump all my shit and try to fit my life into a
backpack. I'm married, which brings with it a whole bunch of compromises. This
post, and many like it, reek of someone who doesn't have to make a lot of
compromises. I'm sure it works for him. It may not work for you.

Wear sunscreen.

------
danieldk
Not this again.

I have just moved to another country. While my wife wraps up her job in my
home country, before she moves here, I am moving from apartment to apartment
with only a suitcase full of clothes, my laptop, and a phone.

Frankly, I hate it. It's great to have a safe and familiar place that you can
call home. It's great to have a sofa, a bed, a stack of books, some nice
photos on the wall, a kitchen with cooking tools, etc. Also, it's utterly
impractical to be a minimalist when/if you get children. Or a life partner who
doesn't hold the same philosophy.

I believe in the middle way: don't be overly consumerist, don't be ascetic.
There is nothing wrong with having a home and owning stuff (like two jeans).

(Of course, each to his/her own, but I think for 95% of the population extreme
minimalism doesn't make them happier.)

------
vinceguidry
I did the no-soap thing for awhile. I wouldn't recommend it, unless you're
looking to live some kind of counter-culture lifestyle and purposefully
alienate people in the mainstream who aren't as open-minded as you are.

Once I stopped, cut my hair and dressed more nicely, I noticed everyone around
me, even the open-minded folk suddenly being a lot more friendly.

My take-away: don't cut your nose off to spite your face. Soap is one of those
things society believes we need and it's not all that harmful, even if it
doesn't really help things much. So just use it.

------
pm
How do you exercise without smelling?

~~~
jpswade
Sweat isn't what makes you smell, it's stale sweat that smells.

Anywhere that bacteria and fungus can grow is going to harbour germs.

Tackle those places and you won't smell.

~~~
pm
Tackle those places with what?

~~~
marrs
Hot water will suffice

~~~
vinceguidry
It really doesn't. I mean, after awhile you'll get used to bathing without
soap and you won't think you'll smell, but you will. Especially if you stop
using deodorant as well. If you're an anti-social sort and don't really care
what people think about you, then knock yourself out, but if you like people
like I like people, do them a favor and get some soap. It's cheap.

------
STRiDEX
This was written by a crazy person.

------
DrinkWater
"I have one pair of shorts with built-in underpants."

...what?

~~~
parasight
I suppose he is talking about some kind of swimming shorts. Those often have
built-in tights.

~~~
DrinkWater
i was worried more about "one" (1) pair. But now that you mentioned it, this
whole matter becomes really disgusting.

------
stiff
Wow, people here are obviously much more attached to their lifestyles than
this guy, considering the amount of hate he received in just a few minutes. I
mean, he was relatively non-judgemental about the whole thing, and people here
respond almost like being attacked personally.

------
paullth
Sounds like 18 year old me. If I met that me, I'd probably throttle that me
whilst yelling "put that credit card away and get a job" and such. But if
successful I guess that would cause a paradox and so it isn't likely to
happen.

------
meiji
How does watching movies on a laptop rather than a TV create "Time. I have
time. Lots of it". I think he's missing the part in his life where you can own
something without having to use it all the damn time.

------
milonguero
this is just stupid. my body creates so much sweat and oil. probably more than
a litre evey week. there is no world without soap for me. i would itch and
smell so bad that i wouldn't have friends.

~~~
bartligthart
When I was traveling in Asia I didn't use any soap or shampoo for a month. My
hair didn't smell and it felt the most healthy I've ever felt.

~~~
milonguero
you must be from north of europe. with a skin that doesn't create oil.

------
disputin
"I don’t use ANY soapy substances" "Time to spend ... chasing girls" Not sure
why you need to chase them.

------
Sagat
This was a successful troll. I actually believed you were serious for several
hours. Thanks for brightening up my day.

------
xuhu
paging Moxie Marlinspike ... [http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/the-
worst](http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/the-worst)

------
sheraz
I I I I I I -- wow. You said I 53 times.

That is not modern minimalism. You are a contemporary pseudo-ascetic with
narcissistic overtones.

edit - removed the angry and hot-headed language

------
mtct
10/10

You made me reply.

------
sdnguyen90
get some socks man thats disgusting

------
chrisreichel
> I don’t use ANY soapy substances: ... toothpaste, ... deodorant

So.. are you living in Europe then?

~~~
dtf
Or the USA?
[http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/31/fashion/31Unwashed.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/31/fashion/31Unwashed.html)

