
'New Zealand wants you': the problem with tech at the edge of the world - ninguem2
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/25/new-zealand-wants-you-the-problem-with-tech-at-the-edge-of-the-world
======
101km
Wellington is like a smaller (and much more windy) San Francisco. Having just
finished driving 12,000km tip-to-tip, that might be the one spot that's dense
enough to amount to something.

I can't emphasize enough how rural the rest of this country is.

New Zealand is a victim of its success in tourism. Everything is geared
towards that. Imagine living somewhere like Denver, CO but with SF prices and
depressed software salaries. It's a wonderful place but even with all things
being equal bureaucracy wise (and they aren't), the list of places ahead of
Wellington is two miles long.

~~~
peatmoss
Wellington is the most beautiful city I’ve ever lived in, maybe the most
beautiful city I’ve been to, and it’s where we assumed we’d be living when my
wife and I moved to NZ some years ago. We spent 9 months before giving up and
moving to Auckland. The winter was miserable. I’d never considered wind to be
something that could make me so miserable in a place.

Kiwis joke that New Zealand starts at the Bombay Hills (the Bombay Hills are
just south of Auckland, and so serve as a demarcation between Auckland and the
far north and the rest of NZ). I wanted to love Wellington, but I ended up
feeling much happier in Auckland.

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madaxe_again
They have a really odd way to attract tech talent....

I exited my startup in the uk two years ago, successfully, leaving a
successful and growing technology business behind. I have several ideas which
I am prepared to self-fund up to £0.5M, and want a good environment in which
to start a new business. I know coders in NZ, and they’re a talented bunch, we
began to hatch a plan.

In short, the NZ gov’t don’t want it. They either want more money invested up
front (much, much more), a VC to be involved (not at that stage yet by a long
shot), or for me to buy a new property in NZ for > $2,000,000. Apparently
having built a business with £10M turnover from nothing isn’t sufficiently
good enough entrepreneurship for me to pass.

I’m now looking elsewhere - which is a shame, as I love NZ for many reasons,
from the people to the nature, to the family I have there. I’m trying very
hard not to be bitter about the repeated rejections, as it’s not fair to tar a
nation on the basis of immigration bureaucrats. I’m certainly disappointed -
the idea was for a service that NZ _needs_ , that I hit upon while travelling
there after my exit for a few months.

All they will attract will be satellite startups owned by megacorporations, as
this appears to be how the bars are set.

~~~
ponzored
Just sign up for a degree at a degree mill and you'll get a student visa and
an easy route to permanent residency.

New Zealand (and Australia) don't care about quality migrants, just quantity,
to keep up demand for housing (both countries have housing-bubble-based
economies) and to add extra consumption to national GDP.

The migrants they really want are Indians who can put downwards pressure on
wages. Go to Auckland, its basically an Asian city.

Go somewhere like Poland, Romania or Portugal and hire your own workforce. You
won't even be in the ass-end of the world like NZ.

~~~
te_chris
There is no way I would choose living in Poland over NZ. Unless you like
breathing coal smoke. I actually quite like Poland too, but it isn't even a
choice.

Also 'basically an Asian city' sounds, basically, racist.

~~~
toadworrier
> Also 'basically an Asian city' sounds, basically, racist.

Presumably, ponzored is from Harvard; we mustn't blame him for his upbringing.

------
pixelbash
I work out of a very small studio in Auckland mostly building ecom
(cofounder/dev). The reality is NZ is such a tiny market that is has a really
funny quality to it (and some really odd stuff in places like an unspoken pay
invoices on the 20th of the month rule). Two degrees of separation is the
running joke here because just about anyone you hear about has met someone you
know. We are doing an increasing amount of overseas work because in many ways
it’s just easier, asides from Skyping at odd hours of the day.

I’d love for NZ to be the next Tech hub, but I fear the culture just isn’t
there yet. It’s easy to start a company here but it’s very hard to locally
source materials or tools at anything like competitive prices thanks to the
100% markup almost any importer puts on anything (if you can get it at all).
Software at least doesn’t have that barrier, good developers here are
generally very busy. That’s good I guess.

~~~
aunty_helen
> Two degrees of separation is the running joke

Funny you should say that, the Jrump devs are friends of a friend of mine. To
add to your comment, after several years of going to a regional conference
I've got to know so many of the crowd from working with them directly that I
struggle to make it around the trade stands. One of the consequences of this
is you can't burn bridges as word will get around (like in a village).

> 100% markup almost any importer puts on anything

This is a big negative of living here, people actually expect to pay a lot and
will be suspicious of cheap things. It's a shame that it's often cheaper to
buy something from the US/UK. Often you can get things (including shipping) at
50% the cost from overseas.

~~~
hackerman12345
I'd understand if it's actually something that is locally made but it's pretty
annoying when a place like Brazil charges 100% markup tax on something like a
video game console, video card, or what not.

It surely makes it difficult for locals to afford computers.

------
peterburkimsher
I'm trying to get a job in New Zealand right now. In 2012 I was there on
Working Holiday, and did a summer job writing control systems code for Fisher
& Paykel Healthcare in Auckland.

By 2014 I'd visited a few more countries and shortlisted destinations: New
Zealand (Skilled Migrant Category), Canada (Express Entry), or Australia
(subclass 186).

Now I'm trying to apply, but most listings on Seek require already having the
"right to live and work in this location". I need the job to get the work
visa.

I sent many applications, without success. I updated my LinkedIn, rewrote my
résumé several times based on conflicting advice, and asked a recruiter to
help - but still no interviews. I posted several side projects here on Hacker
News, but they didn't reach the front page. My current contract making microSD
cards for OSE in Taiwan lasts until the end of the year, but I can leave
earlier.

Please contact me if you have any idea about immigration-friendly employers,
recruiters, websites - anything helps.

~~~
CaptainDecisive
I'm a kiwi and did the reverse and moved to Scotland. I do know a number of
people who were offered jobs in NZ while still abroad. Technical sales,
developer, psychiatrist. That's just anecdotal, but it's definitely possible.

However my approach in moving to the UK was to actually show up to look for a
job. Seems to me like it's very different having a faceless person send in a
CV from the other side of the world, compared to them walking through your
front door wearing a suit, shaking your hand and saying 'Hi, my name's Peter'.
If you're right there in front of them they know you're serious, not just
firing off random speculative applications. And human nature is that you form
an opinion of someone within moments of meeting them, so if that opinion is
positive you'll be treated very differently to an email sitting in their
Inbox. If someone then asks 'Do you have a visa?' then you can explain that if
they offer you the job then you will get the visa and have that conversion
with them.

I understand that approach may be more difficult to commit to than applying
remotely, due to current job, family, financial reasons - but it worked for
me.

~~~
peterburkimsher
I tried that in Japan and the Netherlands while I was on my country-visiting
tour. After a fruitless month in each, I moved on. The flights and living
costs made it an expensive mistake. I'm not rich. The low cost of living in
Kaohsiung means I've saved enough to pay for my visa fees, but that's over
half my savings. Not to mention flights, food, accommodation while searching.
All my previous jobs interviewed over Skype, although sometimes I was
introduced by Facebook friends who I do know in real life.

------
xupybd
I’m in New Zealand. My friends are really struggling to get work here.
Employers here are really tough on Chinese developers. Immigration is even
tougher. I think our government needs to address these issues if we want more
skilled workers.

~~~
doktrin
> Employees here are really tough on Chinese developers. Immigration is even
> tougher

Can you elaborate on this? I'm just curious.

~~~
ponzored
In New Zealand and Australia Indian and Chinese workers are essentially seen
as replaceable due to the huge numbers of them migrating to both countries
(those countries make up the #1 and #2 sources of migrants respectively).

The whole point of the migration schemes are to get workers for cheap and to
put downwards pressure on wages. A very high skill level is not really
required, and big companies will just throw bodies at jobs and rotate out
anyone who can't make the cut.

The IT contracting shops there are called 'body shops' for this very reason.

~~~
jpmoral
Can you explain why the government would want to depress wages?

~~~
ponzored
Because their big business mates bribe them into doing it. However, Australia
is not a corrupt country, so the 'bribe' will mean a high-paid consulting or
executive job after their career in politics.

Additionally most of the wages being depressed are actually for entry-level
jobs, and the poor have no voice in most democracies since they are not
effectively organised.

Its a common scam to get a student visa (often with fake English test results
etc) which allows you to enter the country and work 20 hours a week, then to
actually work 60 hours and have the boss pay you for 20. This results in
payments 1/3rd the level of minimum wage, but this is still attractive enough
for poor Indian males to want to come and do it in the hundreds of thousands.

Plus Australia is has very generous welfare for the elderly (aka pensions) and
a sub-replacement fertility level, so there is always pressure to maintain
that ponzi scheme with more taxable bodies.

Oh, and in addition to all that, the people that are opposing this type of
mass immigration are being called racist.

------
adventured
> The government believes that 40% of jobs will go [to AI] within the next ten
> years. I think its going to be a lot faster than that.

It's going to be _a lot_ slower than that. Ten years from now AI will barely
have made a dent in the existing job market in the developed world. Maybe in
30 years 10-15% of existing jobs will have been replaced by AI. That's an
optimistic outcome. The AI jobs predictions are hilariously wrong. Ten years
is a short amount of time, they have the impact time scale wrong as is typical
in tech predictions (making the mistake of shuttling the impact far too close
to the present).

~~~
AITechy
I think they don't count the numbers the way you do, to rig the statistics
they seems to count jobs that are done by machines and wil be done in the
future by AI to.

------
tzfld
>Two guys in a garage

Is this urban legend still taken seriously? I mean, it was a thing 40 years
ago, but now there is hardly anyone "with nothing to lose" that can reach
anywhere without a good amount of luck.

~~~
jlebrech
it's one guy and a standing desk now

~~~
TomK32
that's me :D

------
HumanDrivenDev
Shit salaries, overpriced housing, and everything is expensive. Seriously, if
you're American name me the last thing you just purchased and I can guarantee
it will be at least 25% more expensive here, sometimes double.

If you're an American you'd be crazy to come here unless you've already made
your money.

~~~
dvtv75
> Shit salaries, overpriced housing, and everything is expensive

You're not kidding. A decade ago I looked at buying Autodesk Maya. It was
$US3999 if I were in the US, so how much was it from the local reseller in NZ?
$NZ13,000, just because it could be. At the time, that was enough to make a
deposit on a house. A group of us started calling it "the New Zealand tax,"
because we noticed that almost every price for an imported good was 2.5x what
it would cost to purchase, ship from another country, and pay tax - often
more. HDMI cables were $40, and my friend from Dick Smith (roughly equivalent
to Fry's) told me they bought them for $5.

------
utdemir
One and a half years ago I migrated to New Zealand from Turkey.

* It was almost my first time abroad, my English wasn't great, and I was new to the culture. However I was amazed that how welcoming and patient people were. I hear the opposite from my friends living in Europe and US.

* I found a job while in Turkey, and the company sponsored me for the visa; and since they were an accredited employer the visa process was painless.

* Job variety is definitely small. I think it is not that hard to find _a_ job since there's usually demand for IT; however they are all pretty similar to each other(big finance/telco companies). If you have a specific interest (FP/Haskell and smaller companies in my case) it would be hard to find a job you like.

* Rent is expensive. Almost every one of my single friends flatshare, but I was able to find a one bedroom flat to live with my partner. I pay about 40% of my salary to the rent.

* However I do not think living expenses are too much. Our weekly shopping are usually cheaper compared to Turkey relative to the income. And most of the stuff we like to do for fun is usually cheap or free.

* People are nice. The city feels safe. Nature is great, lots of great hikes just an hour drive from the city center.

Overall; I can not compare with Europe or US since I've never been there, but
I'm glad I am here now. And moving here was not that hard, so I think it has
everything it needs to be a Tech hub, other than momentum.

~~~
ElCapitanMarkla
Are you in Auckland with that kind of rent?

~~~
utdemir
Yes, I live very close to Auckland city centre.

~~~
ElCapitanMarkla
Thought about living anywhere else? Wellington/Christchurch and Dunedin all
have fairly decent IT scenes.

~~~
utdemir
I can consider living somewhere else; especially Wellington is a good option
as you said. However currently I am happy with my job and living arrangements
here, but definitely I will consider them when I want a change.

But honestly, I always thought that those cities had even less variety than
Auckland.

------
johankmagnusson
Why not reverse the immigration process? Instead of doing tremendous amounts
of paper work after which the system takes a guess if you will be able to
contribute to the country, run that process backwards instead and lower the
threshold for IT professionals to enter NZ significantly and then they get to
prove their worth.

Start with a very rudimentary initial screening and after say a 2 year trial
period have a selection process based on what the person in question has
accomplished. That way people get to prove themselves and what the can
contribute with instead.

If you don't contribute, i.e. receive social welfare or similar, you're out.
If you contribute by performing in the labour market, start an at least
moderately successful business or similar you're in. I don't understand why
all immigration systems don't work like this...

~~~
peterburkimsher
That sounds similar to the Working Holiday programme, which offers 1 year work
visas with few strings attached.

Most people blow their chance on irrelevant work experience (farm work, café).
I got relevant jobs (summer job coding control systems at Fisher & Paykel
Healthcare in NZ, network administration at Lululemon in Canada).

My mistake was only staying for a few months - I should've spent a whole year
there, and then I could add immigration points for working in the country for
1 year.

Now I'm trying to move back, and it's hard. Any suggestions would be helpful.

~~~
RowanH
Maybe visa sponsorship ? Sometimes with niche enough roles NZ employers can
sponsor Visas if no one is upto standard locally.

~~~
peterburkimsher
I think the word "sponsor" scares off the HR department. I'm able to pay all
the fees, I just need the company's name (and a commitment to stay in the role
for at least a year if I remember right).

~~~
Negitivefrags
You have to understand that it’s not as simple as that for the company.

In order to sponsor your visa they have to demonstrate that they attempted to
hire New Zealanders for the role and there was nobody suitable for the role.

That means being able to supply proof that you made a reasonable effort to
advertise for the role, and giving lists of NZ candidates who applied but
where not suitable because they lacked the technical requirements for the
role.

------
chriselles
I’m in NZ, and involved in the startup community down here.

Great people, great vibe.

There’s a long history of Innovation down here at the bottom of the planet.

The best example is David Downs book “#8 Rewired” which gives examples of
great NZ Innovations such as:

Disposable hypodermic syringe Manned flight(disputed) Jet boat Nanotube Freeze
dried coffee(sorry) DNA discovery Splitting the atom(Rutherford) DNA double
helix(Wilkins, the DNA Ringo Starr)

Unfortunaly, outside of Xero(Cloud Accounting) there isn’t much of that
awesome innovation scaling down here.

Discovery yes, scaling not so much.

~~~
rebelnz
One of the most underated software produced in NZ is Serato - pretty much
changed the DJing game.

~~~
marssaxman
Funny you mention that - I've recently been tempted to send them my resume.

------
Mashimo
Just today we learned that one of our architects will leave our firm. His old
employer made him an offer he can't refuse: 1 year oversees deployment in New
Zealand with wife and kids. Sounds hella nice to be honest.

------
gadders
Lovely place. I just wish they would hurry up and invent those hypersonic jets
that people have been promising for 20 years so it was only a 2 hour flight
away.

------
toomanybeersies
I left New Zealand for Australia about 9 months ago, and have no plans on
moving back to NZ for at least half a decade.

I love New Zealand and I think it's an amazing country. I really miss it, and
if I ever had kids, I'd want to raise them in NZ.

But the money and the jobs just aren't there.

I doubled my wages by moving to Melbourne from Wellington and cost of living
is roughly the same. It took me 2 weeks from when I started looking for a job
to getting an offer. My salary went from NZ$42k + 3% super and no bonus to
AU$75k (NZ$80k) + 9.5% super + bonus. I'm sure I could've landed a better
paying job here too, but I was living off my credit card so I took the first
job that gave me an offer.

In New Zealand there just weren't many options for someone with 2 years of
experience. There's a chronic shortage of senior positions, but for mid level
positions, especially if you don't want to work with .NET or Java, there just
aren't jobs available. There were about 5 open positions nationwide for a Ruby
on Rails dev with 2 or 3 years experience when I was looking to move on from
my job, before deciding to jump ship to Australia. In Melbourne, there were so
many positions I was qualified for that I didn't even bother applying for most
of them. I had recruiters ringing me every morning with new positions that I
was perfectly suited for.

If you're trying to start a company, don't expect a lot of investment. Most
startups in NZ bootstrap or get investment from family and friends. There just
isn't a culture of venture capital in NZ. It seems like a very normal
trajectory for an NZ tech startup is to get enough funding and growth that
they can migrate to California. Xero is quite unique in that it stayed in NZ,
although it's now listed on the Australian Stock Exchange. The lack of
investment in startups is a cultural thing I think, and ties right in with
tall poppy syndrome:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome).
Our humility is both a source of national pride and also something that holds
us back as a country. Of course, not everyone wants to start a unicorn, and
that's fine, but someone needs to.

It does lead to a very different startup culture. There isn't that rapid
growth in companies that you see in the USA, because there's less investment.
The startup I worked for had been around for 3 or 4 years and only had 8
employees, the lack of manpower (especially developers) really held the
company back. The business idea was solid, we made decent sales, but we were
severely undercapitalised. Most startups, due to the investment situation are
one or two person shops.

The tech startup scene is weird too, at least in Wellington, as it's so small.
It's like this little incestuous community, full of gossip about different
people and companies. I actually found it got quite catty at times.

It's a crying shame that I felt I had to leave (although money was only part
of the reason), but like fuck I'm going to work for $20 an hour when I can
jump on a plane and 4 hours later be earning double. NZ is a beautiful country
let down by a low wage economy.

------
pseingatl
Of course, if you're working in New Zealand you'll have to obey U.S. laws; the
NZ government will violate its own laws to seize your property at the behest
of a foreign government without due process of any kind. If you don't believe
me, ask Kim Dotcom.

No thank you.

~~~
rapsey
Grow up. If you think the US can't strong-arm other countries in its sphere of
influence you aren't living in reality.

~~~
YawningAngel
I think the egregious aspect of this is that there's no evidence they had to
strong-arm the NZ government much at all.

~~~
Freeboots
Although the initial raid/ arrest was absurd, the NZ courts denied extradition
for years. Also that was the previous government, famous for licking us dick

