

Arne Duncan, U.S. Education Secretary on Xbox: "Not a fan. No, absolutely not." - cwan
http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2010/09/will_obamas_schools_chief_buy_his_kids_an_xbox_360_absolutely_not.html

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tptacek
Not surprised. No, absolutely not. I am locked in an epic struggle with my 11
year old to get him to take his homework seriously instead of playing video
games all day. It's been a years-long familial Battle of Ypres; trench
warfare, heavy losses, hazy strategic objectives.

We are relatively attentive parents. In many areas, most parents can't be this
attentive; they're working multiple jobs. It's hard to imagine that the
children of multiple-shift parents who have Xboxes _wouldn't_ be suffering in
school.

I'm glad my son has games to play; for one thing, you'd be at a social
disadvantage in 2010 not to. But it absolutely does create a drag on
schoolwork.

~~~
derefr
As a game designer, when I look at this problem, I don't see kids being
distracted away from something worthwhile by something pointless, but rather
kids being distracted away from something _boring_ by something _fun_. The
thing is, there is nothing _intrinsically_ boring about the subjects taught in
school--rather, the boredom is _created_ by the linear, contextless, no-
immediate-feedback method of batched homework questions.

Really, there needs to be game design thinking put into the design of homework
and projects--either as a separate editorial step after the creation of the
actual academic content, or, better yet, done by the teachers themselves, made
capable by having taken courses in game design (psychology, applied economics,
and UI design, mostly) as part of their own schooling.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Ah, how I wish it were that easy. Yes, school assignments and homework could
(and should) be made more fun and engaging but the reality is that life is
chock full of linear, contextless, boring, repetitive tasks with no-immediate-
feedback _that must get done_. I'm not saying it _should_ be this way, or that
homework should be shitty to prepare kids for reality, or that kids should be
adults at 11, or that adults shouldn't have fun and eliminate every bit of
useless dreck from their lives that they can. I'm not saying any of that. I
_am_ saying that sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and get shit done,
no matter how unpleasant. That habit seems to often be learned at an early
age. The most unproductive people I know still haven't figured it out, and
instead go watch TV or play video games. And then wonder why they haven't
accomplished much at 40.

~~~
derefr
I am assuming you are implying that the real purpose of school, then, is to
teach kids to "grit [their] teeth and get shit done, no matter how
unpleasant." In other words, to teach kids self-control. Reminds me of Robin
Hanson: <http://www.overcomingbias.com/tag/academia>

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Actually, I _specifically_ said that's NOT what I was saying. I _do_ think
that there's a lot of stuff that should be taught in school that will never be
as engaging as a well-made video game. It's just the nature of reality.

~~~
derefr
There's a difference between what you _want_ to communicate, and what the
words you type end up actually implying. I understand that you said "I'm not
saying that [...] homework should be shitty to prepare kids for reality"—but
saying that there are shitty things that should be taught, because that _is_
reality, is the same idea behind a different facade.

We live in a socially-constructed reality. There are laws of physics and
biology that say how the world around us acts, but really, _we_ get to decide
how _we_ act, and make the rules for human behavior. If you entitle a group to
an idea, make them think it is perfectly deserved—even if their own elders
can't give them that thing—then, when they grow up, they will give the
generation coming after them the opportunity they never had.

Entitle children to the idea of human rights and, having grown, they will not
own slaves, and free those passed down to them. Entitle children to game-
designed work, and, having grown, they will believe that game design has a
place in I/O psychology, and that any organizational consultant worth hiring
will need to optimize for fun.

Now, you might rebut with "but what about those laws of physics and biology
you mentioned? Surely they necessitate some form of un-fun?" The interesting
thing about that is, evolution has made sure that all the things we have to do
to survive and reproduce _are_ fun already.

* Running (and hunting, catching, killing), and exploring (and gathering, washing, preparing, and cooking) are both fun.

* Having sex is fun (think about how arduous procreation would be if evolution didn't make us think otherwise!)

* Being creative (telling stories, doodling, humming a melody to oneself) is fun.

* Competing and collaborating are both fun.

* Inventing and using tools is fun, as any programmer would tell you.

* Understanding why things work the way they do is fun (and funny! Laughing is the basic response to a sudden realization that makes you dump cache and re-parse a narrative.)

Other examples abound—the only things that _aren't_ fun are the things we
force ourselves to do to live in this strange, post-agricultural
lifestyle—commuting, being "objectively evaluated", producing things that
disappear into an aether and for which one never receives feedback from the
people on the receiving end... we're not going to change this process from the
end-side. School beats people down and makes them accept this kind of life,
and thus they won't bother to change it once they get there, even if it could
be better. We need to entitle these new people, to make them angry that they
aren't getting something because it doesn't exist yet, so that when they get
the power to do something about it, they will.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Your examples of fun seem terribly biased. I notice you didn't mention
agriculture, which is probably a more common source of food for most of human
history than hunting (maybe not, I'm no anthropologist). Like a lot of other
things on your list, I imagine that agriculture is "fun" pretty seldomly, but
mostly just hard work that is often quite dull and boring. You might get some
deep satisfaction out of them, but I get satisfaction out of doing many things
that are hard and non-fun at first. Your list feels very cherry-picked.

Sorry, I just don't see any way that an objective observer would look at the
whole of human existence and conclude that evolution has optimized everything
we need to do for survival and reproduction so they're _fun_!

~~~
prodigal_erik
This. Without massive automation, agriculture is such a merciless ordeal that
people actually prefer migrating to work in sweatshops.

------
nlawalker
American students on busy work, shitty teachers, the tied hands of the non-
shitty teachers, teaching to tests, promoting attention to apathetic and
failing students at the expense of the ones who excel and care, inability to
get any kind of credit for learning about things interesting to them that
aren't on the district's curriculum, and not explaining to them how anything
being taught to them is supposed to impact their lives: "Not a fan. No,
absolutely not."

Video games are a formidable player in the war for childrens' attention, but
they're not going anywhere, so making them a scapegoat when you can't get rid
of them isn't going to help anything. Even if we eradicated them from the face
of the earth, something else would take their place.

The goal shouldn't be to erase the distractions that the world provides or
pretend they don't exist, it should be to learn how to deal with them.

------
euroclydon
I recently told my five year old, that once he can pick up any of the books we
have in his room, and read it, that I will buy him a game console. I was
thinking I would get him an XBox, since MS Research has a program that let's
kids build their own games, and without their knowing, learn to program. Maybe
I should rethink this offer and hedge some.

~~~
jerf
Well, just slip a copy of _Ulysses_ into his room. That should buy you until
he goes to college.

Seriously, though, there's no way to avoid this battle. I haven't got any
magic wisdom on how to win, but our culture is incredibly wealthy, the
temptation to consume rather than learn is always going to be there and the
temptations are only going to get worse, and the need to learn how to resist
those temptations is only getting more acute. If it's not video games it will
be TV or movies, if not that then books, if not that than online social media,
if not that then something else. The only way to dodge the problem is to
become a modern-day hermit.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
_If it's not video games it will be TV or movies, if not that then books, if
not that than online social media, if not that then something else._

I've argued the point before that video games, TV, movies, books, social
media, etc. can all have equal value and merit, but I'm not sure I really
believe it. It seems rational, but something about reading books or Hacker
News just _feels_ more valuable than anything I've seen on TV. Maybe I'm
watching the wrong stuff.

~~~
jerf
I would argue they _can_ have equal merit, and correspondingly, they _can_
have equal worthlessness as well. It really isn't the medium, per se.

For the record I'm a parent, but my kid is 2 and there's one in the oven, so
like I said, no great font of wisdom, I've just been pondering the problem.
But I do observe that one problem is that there is probably an unavoidable
phase of consumption of "childish things". I played a lot of video games as a
kid, but you know, I turned out alright, and looking back I can not honestly
say that I would be in a very different place if I had instead been doing
"worthwhile" things. In the excellent Hardy Boys story today on HN, adults go
back and read their beloved books of their youth and discover they are tripe.
Is there necessarily a way around that? I'd be surprised. You can't become a
person of taste and discrimination without acquiring taste and discrimination
and that necessarily entails a period during which you do not have taste and
discrimination. Is there _anybody_ who does not essentially "fritter away"
their childhood? (Yes, but not very many, and even fewer of them do it by
their own choice.) Do we not often feel sorry for those who have been forced
to "not fritter" away their childhood, do we not often feel sorry for the 15
year old forced to play piano four hours a day, even if it produces
spectacular results? Am I the only one who looks at the top-level gymnasts and
feel a bit sorry for them?

But that's just more questions, not answers. I'm not convinced anyone really
has answers. Who can _prove_ that playing a lot of video games is actually a
bad thing? People mostly just assume it without proof.

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dzlobin
This is pretty depressing. There have been so many studies as of late
regarding all the benefits of playing video games(in moderation).

