
Ask HN: Engineers, what is your opinion on Oak Ridge National Laboratory? - jpiburn
I am a research data scientist at Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL) and I am trying to get some insights into what the level of awareness&#x2F;perception that the software engineering community has about ORNL and the national lab system in general. Particularly when it comes to applying for jobs.<p>The national labs are well known within the science community, through post-docs and the standard academic channels, but it seems to me that when it comes to software engineering that awareness (or interest?) is much lower (with possible exception in HPC). This difference manifests itself in the hiring process. For research-based science positions there are tons of qualified applicants, however for software engineering openings, it’s a struggle to get even a hand full of reasonably qualified people to apply.<p>What I am trying to figure out, is why that is the case?<p>We do a ton of cool, globally impactful work using all the latest technologies and have thousands of smart people from all over the world (~5,000 employees). In a blind resume, I would think ORNL would be somewhat of an attractive place for a software engineer to work.<p>I would love to get everyone&#x27;s thoughts&#x2F;experiences on this. Some prompting questions I have, feel free to answer all or none…<p>If you have ever thought about applying to software engineering position at ORNL (or another national lab) and didn’t apply, what was your reasoning?
Have you even heard of ORNL? Or know where it is?
Did you know that ORNL hires non-research track software engineers that don&#x27;t have to write research papers?
Did you know that ORNL&#x27;s computing and engineering positions aren&#x27;t limited to just Super Computing (Titan&#x2F;Summit)?
Did you know that ORNL builds and deploys software to partner platforms?
Did you know that the national labs are not on the GS pay scale?
Did you know that ORNL encourages and rewards developing and releasing open source software?<p>Any feedback would be helpful.<p>Thanks!
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FiatLuxDave
Physicist here, so of course I've heard of ORNL, as well as been there. I did
not know that ORNL was not on the GS pay scale, which is interesting.

I think you may get more responses if you change your headline to something
like "Ask HN: Software Engineers, your opinion of Oak Ridge NL?". The software
folks may not be aware that you are asking them. You could possibly even call
them developers, but I'm not sure which crowd you are aiming for.

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jpiburn
Very good point. I may wait a view days and try again with your title
suggestion. I originally had "Ask HN: Software Engineers..." but I ran out of
room.

Thank you for your feedback

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Sevii
I have never heard of ORNL. In general I would assume national labs are low
paying and run by PHD researchers, so less upward mobility with my BS. I would
rather make more money in an engineering led company. And I personally try to
avoid companies with more than 200 employees, since they tend to have too much
bureaucracy.

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jpiburn
The salaries are actually pretty comparable (that's why I mentioned that NLs
aren't on the GS scale) no stock options of course but you are correct that
PhD researchers run the lab from mid level management on up and traditionally
a PhD is expected for upward mobility. I can see where that would potentially
be a concern from your perspective.

Thanks for your reply.

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matt_the_bass
Thanks for posting.

I’m curious about job security and tenure. Are there similar amount of layoffs
as at commercial enterprises or are almost guaranteed a job once you’re in.
Are most people there “lifers” or only there a few years.

The answers to these questions might be attractive to certain people.

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rajacombinator
Rough impression: “national lab” type places are largely career dead ends that
are suitable for post docs and other academic types. Non tenure track
engineers will be treated as third class slave labor, likely poorly paid
relative to industry. Non transferable skill set development, work on non
interesting non impactful stuff. Maybe unfair but basically accurate.

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jetti
I have heard of ORNL but couldn't tell you were it was located without looking
it up. That said, I'm really glad you posted this as I always thought that
national labs were on GS pay scale and tried to avoid them. I've been
teetering with applying to Argonne or FermiLab but was afraid of taking a big
pay cut. I'll have to look in to that more.

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eshvk
One thing I have observed is that engineering roles at national labs tend to
have a lot of paperwork needed for an interview. I can understand a faculty
role requiring recommendation letters, a long application form to fill up but
an engineering role requiring all that makes it rather annoying.

Not sure if Oak Ridge does this tho. :)

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jpiburn
In my experience that is probably a true statement. Typically the application
process is a little verbose, but I think ORNL isn't the worst of them. Combine
that with the inhumane SAP interface and I can see where a lot of people
wouldn't even bother.

Thanks for the feedback!

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badpun
Is there any possibility to apply as a foreigner who currently resides outside
US (as one can do with H-1B or other visas in the commercial world)?

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jpiburn
Also I was ran out of room in the original post, but wanted to add even just
commenting, "I've never heard of ORNL" is probably the most insightful of all
:)

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eip
The "View open positions" link on the ORNL site takes me to a blank page.

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jpiburn
If it did work for you, it would be even worse. It's a brutalist SAP interface
that would scare away anyone with a hint of creativity

