
Ask HN: Do we need Engineering Managers? - montbonnot
People(engineers) don&#x27;t leave jobs anymore; they leave managers. I&#x27;ve seen so many bad managers in my career that I strongly believe we should get rid of that extra layer. Here&#x27;s the reasons why:<p>1- Managers are expensive.<p>2- Manager = Dispatcher. They dispatch tasks coming from above and make sure work is done.<p>3- They push engineers, they don&#x27;t pull them (leader vs boss).<p>4- They don&#x27;t treat people equally.<p>5- Micro management, micro managerment, micro management...<p>6- We have to deal with their personalities.<p>7- We have to justify everything we do
etc.<p>What are your thoughts? I believe companies should minimize layers of management and invest in a more self-managed company culture.
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nostrademons
Google tried this in 2000, it was an absolute disaster.

Managers also:

1\. Handle administrative concerns like requests for leave, vacations,
illnesses, deaths in the family, etc.

2\. Understand each of their reports' career goals and try to put them on
projects where they can grow & contribute best.

3\. Handle personality conflicts between individuals on the team.

4\. Make sure that individual contributors get recognition for their work.

5\. Encourage their team to keep going in the face of obstacles.

6\. Protect their team from interruptions by handling many of the external
inquiries themselves.

7\. Connect team members with relevant collaborators in other parts of the
organization.

Now, there are good managers and bad managers, and typically good managers
will do more of the activities on my list while bad managers will do more of
the activities on your list. But that isn't a reason to get rid of managers
entirely. Rather, it's a reason to invest in manager training, make sure they
understand their role, and ensure that you've hired good managers and fire the
bad ones.

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AnimalMuppet
Sounds like you've seen engineering management done badly, and you don't like
it. But if you saw a self-managed team done badly, you wouldn't like that,
either.

Good engineering management insulates you from the corporate politics and
irrelevant stuff going on above you. You really want that insulation, because
those who don't do corporate politics can still have politics done to them.

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montbonnot
I've seen very good managers but the ratio is bad. %10 vs %90 of bad ones. A
world with less management could be a world with less politics. I understand
that a conflict between teams, for example, is a problem that can only be
resolved at the management level. The question is, what if these 2 teams
become one? The rest is about company re-org, new manager assignment, etc.
Politics... as you said.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
> A world with less management could be a world with less politics.

Wow, are you an optimist. Sure, it _could_ be, but it probably _won 't_ be.

You seem to think that engineers are wonderful human beings and managers are
horrible. It's not that simple. If you're finding 10% good managers and 90%
bad ones, you'd likely find 10% engineers good at interacting with others
while self-managing, and 90% who will get into petty vindictive garbage and
make your office a miserable place.

~~~
montbonnot
I agree with that. Engineering managers are ex-engineers after all so the
ratio 10/90 applies at any level.

What if you promote a "bad" engineer? She/he would have a much bigger impact
on people = more impact on the company. The problem is not about engineers vs
managers. The problem is about micro bubbles within a company which create
micro cultures that are often driven by these (micro) managers. A solution
would be to put everyone at the same level. That sounds very naive and
provocative... but after all, there hasn't been much innovation in that space
within the last 20-30 years. We manage engineers like we used to manage
workers in a factory. I think the model does not apply anymore. That's just my
naive/ideal world opinion...

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a3n
Managers operate the company, and serve as a buffer between me and even more
managers or executives. I don't want to do that, and I'm glad someone else is
willing.

It sounds like you're currently working for some managers that should be left.
They aren't all like that.

~~~
montbonnot
I don't believe managers operate the company. I believe engineers do. As you
said we don't want to deal with all the extras which consist on dispatching
tasks and making sure everyone does the job. For that we have project
management tools and meetings... lot's of meetings.

These 2 things can easily be handled by the engineers (e.g. agile
methodologies, etc). You always need a boss to make a big decision like
getting rid of someone for example or picking up the next big thing. %99 of
the decisions made at the 1st level, maybe even the 2nd level of managements
are usually not relevant. Again, they only dispatch the work and approve your
vacation requests. You have to go higher to start seeing people making real
decisions for a company.

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zorrored
I agree, Managers are extra layer & expensive but in reality without them,
there would be chaos in the company. I think it would be better to either hire
the best or fire & re-hire.

~~~
montbonnot
There would be chaos because companies never invested in finding a way to
promote self-management. If they do, maybe chaos would be out of the picture.
As well as turn over (which is currently an existing problem).

