
I Almost Left Tech Today - CodeLikeAGirl
https://code.likeagirl.io/i-almost-left-tech-today-heres-why-6d146a2f7cf2
======
mod
> What the FUCK is wrong with this industry, that thinks it can destroy people
> like this?

I would echo this sentiment if it were "What the FUCK is wrong with my
colleagues?"

I have never had a sour personal experience involving any coworkers in tech.
Not sexism, racism, anything-ism. Never once, I'm over 5 years in (developer
as well).

I've had terrible experiences before I moved to tech.

I know it's just an anecdote--like yours--and I feel fortunate and lucky.

Anyway, I can't echo your sentiment that it's an entire industry. Nearly the
entire tech industry would be appalled and disgusted by the behavior of the
people in your story.

~~~
rhcom2
It's great that you've never had similar negative experiences but stories like
these are common and, while not exclusive to this industry, very prevalent.

You might think the entire industry would be disgusted but stories like these
keep coming out, from high profile tech companies to small firms so it seems
pretty clear this is a problem.

~~~
scrollaway
Like you say, it's not exclusive to this industry and I think it's a problem
that, the way we're often presenting it, we make it sound like these problems
are only in STEM. We don't consider whether anything is a US-centric issue, or
a SV-centric issue, France-centric issue, or whether it's simply _humans being
shitty_.

Focusing on "fixing sexism in the industry" is hopeless if the problem isn't
specific to the industry, I think.

~~~
rhcom2
Sexism isn't specific to any one single place. You try to fix the issues that
you can impact, in this case the industry we're in.

~~~
scrollaway
What makes "the industry we're in" easier to impact than "the country we're
in"?

And I would say that while sexism isn't _specific_ to any single place,
_culture_ is highly impactful on the amount of racism/sexism/homophobia you
may experience and this is what changes the most when you go from country to
country. A startup in San Francisco will have a very different culture to a
mid-size company in Madrid.

~~~
stale2002
Because fixing the entire country is a much large problem.

Most of the time, when people talk about "lets fix the broader problem not our
specific problem", it is mostly an excuse to do nothing, as opposed to an
actual attempt to solve the bigger problem.

People in tech have both the ability and responsibility to fix issues that
directly effect the tech industry.

Whereas we don't necessarily have the ability to change worldwide culture as a
whole.

~~~
scrollaway
The tech industry isn't US-only. What you see in the US is the tip of an
iceberg that spans six continents.

So again how exactly is it easier to fix something "in the industry" vs. in
the country?

~~~
stale2002
Because you and me can do our part to help solve the problem here and now.

We can make direct contributions by working to solve the problem within our
own companies and move the needle that way.

It is also because this whole "it is better to solve a different problem" is
basically just an excuse to do nothing, by throwing our hands in the air.

------
spyhi
This reminds me of an extremely eloquent comment I saw over on Reddit a while
ago about how men being assholes to each other is actually a form of male
bonding, and there is a delicate nuance to our rough-edged camaraderie. [1] I
was raised in a gentle household by a nerd and a feminist, so when I joined
the Army as an infantryman, I absolutely had to learn how this worked and can
absolutely attest that it's a real thing. Given the later apologies, it sounds
like it's possible the office was bro-ing it up with her and may have even
thought they were welcoming her into the tribe, so to speak. (Of course, they
could have all just been misogynist assholes, too...sad how there can be
little difference)

Thing is, most women absolutely DO NOT respond well to that kind of male
bonding. And, honestly, they probably shouldn't--I think this "emotional
sonar" is a maladjusted response to men being told they can't express their
feelings. Given this, we probably shouldn't be exposing women to that kind of
environment either.

I guess this kind of underscores why you need women in the workplace. It's too
easy for an all-male space to fall into this kind of emotional language and
interaction framework, which is "hostile but comprehensible" to those in the
culture, but completely alien to those who aren't--women and foreigners alike.
At the very least, we (meaning everyone, not just men) should try to be aware
that not everyone bonds the same, and bonding activities for some people and
genders may be anti-bonding and hostile to others.

I want to make clear, I'm not trying to justify what happened, but I feel like
often these articles are kind of one-sided, which can make it difficult to
diagnose what's going on. The problem with saying "don't be misogynist" is I
suspect few people identify as one but, on the other hand, we can identify our
baggage and try to examine critically how it affects others.

Either way, sorry OP had to experience that, whether mismatched bonding
attempts or actual hostility and misogyny.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/5dpezd/girls_what...](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/5dpezd/girls_what_things_guys_like_to_do_to_each_other/da6fi9l/?context=3&st=ivp2r7tf&sh=16e79aa2)

~~~
tickthokk
I think a good example is the "Our app is huge, like my dick." line.

As a guy, this line was pretty funny, and I could see myself saying it (on an
all male team). I might not say it in front of female coworkers though, but if
I worked closely with one I may say it within earshot without thinking about
it. It certainly wasn't an attack on the poster.

Are we just not allowed to talk about genitalia? I guess as a baseline rule
it's inappropriate, sure, but he's not being suggestive or soliciting. As
described, it's obviously a joke. Not sure where the offense is here other
than he said "dick" in the workplace within earshot of someone who doesn't
want to hear that.

I'll finish by saying that the rest of it was certainly uncalled for, but this
one instance doesn't really stand on it's own as offensive.

~~~
tzs
If a coworker says "Our app is huge, like my dick", I'd say that gives his
implicit consent for others to use his dick for comparisons, at least for a
while:

"The bug was just a small one, like <coworker>'s dick".

"We missed processing the event because it came too soon, like <coworker>'s
dick".

"Dammit...I need to reset this router and don't have a pin to poke the reset
hole. <Coworker>, can you use your dick to do it for me?"

Being the butt of dick jokes for a week (especially if some of these making
them are women) will probably strongly discourage <coworker> from making
future comparisons to his own dick.

~~~
flukus
This used to be acceptable in many smaller places, even ones with women
because it was a much harder burn coming from them. These days you have to
just go to work and avoided any sort of socializing or non-work related
discussion, keep work life and social life completely segregated and hope
that's enough (it isn't always). This is the world political correctness (or
professionalism if you prefer) has created.

Best to avoid eye contact too, someone could misinterpret that as flirting.

------
karllager
This experience makes me sick. There are very different places, where people
are generally polite and professional and even fun. And where a sexist comment
would not go unnoticed. Hope your next job will be like that.

I once attended a hackathon around some humanitarian cause. Participants in
general were nice. However, I joined a team, which had two kind of strong male
characters in them. None of them would be able to discuss and think freely.
One guy has worked in various startups. Without him telling me more about
this, I could just infer how blame-driven his developer jobs were by seeing
him interacting with the others. Really scary. The other imagined himself as
an activist. So active, that in the end, we did not produce anything at that
hackathon and I believe without these two males it would have been much
simpler to actually get a discussion going and to have fun.

In general, the more educated and diverse people are, the more they are able
to think and think independently. The more people are responsible for
themselves the more they are responsible for creating a work atmosphere, that
is healthy for all participants - because hate and exclusion lessen motivation
and there is one thing that need to go out to all businesses and managers and
hierarchical elements: You cannot motivate people - you can only demotivate
them. And this can happen much faster than one might believe.

~~~
bbotond
Two "males"... I hate it so much when people who are against stereotyping
women so readily stereotype men. Those were two _people_ who happened to be
men. Your comment is everything that is wrong with today's "feminist"
movement.

~~~
karllager
I could have said "two people", it would have not changed the situation not
much, I guess.

------
zapt02
Every time I see a story like this, I am honestly wondering where all these
people are working, as I have never encountered anyone near these levels of
sexism in many years of working in the tech industry (albeit in Sweden).

What rubs me the wrong way though is when people project experiences like
these onto their own experiences of lesser magnitude.

For example, a while back a colleague asked me for a sit-down and explained
that she was frustrated that i had "mansplained" her in a meeting. She was
fuming. At worst, I might have interrupted her at one point or two
inadvertently because there was a heated discussion on a technical topic. I
don't want to rob her of these feelings but I feel like overall we're talking
about some actual sexist idiots and then have a much larger layer of people
who are just looking to be mad about something.

~~~
gorkonsine
>I have never encountered anyone near these levels of sexism in many years of
working in the tech industry (albeit in Sweden).

Nor have I, albeit in the US (even in the parts that are Trump-land).

You're European, so maybe you know more about French culture than me: is this
something that's endemic to French culture perhaps? Over here in the US, I
would be shocked to hear about this crap in any place other than one run by a
bunch of 25-year-old frat bros.

~~~
zapt02
This type of thing exists, there's even a saying for it in swedish - "grabbig
stämning" (loosely translated: "frat-house feeling"). But the last time I
remember someone behaving like this was when I was just starting university,
at around 19-20 yo, and even then that was just stuff between guys, never to a
girl. We are very conscious of how we talk in sweden, and nobody would drop a
comment vaguely similar to the ones mentioned above, unless they really hate
their job and want to get fired.

------
jriot
I have often wondered if it is sexism or women getting used to how men treat
each other.

Currently, I am a data scientist, but prior to that I was an air traffic
controller (ATC). ATC training was brutal. You come in at 0530 for
work/training, and you better be ready for a simulator first thing in the
morning. Make a mistake get ready to be berated in front of everyone, and be
scheduled to work the weekend. If you did well, you got to control real planes
that day and you better perform exceptional while answering your trainers
questions or forget controlling tomorrow. Questions would include, what is the
separation between a heavy and small on final inside the approach gate? What
is the radial and DME for xxxx point? What ABQ center's frequency?

We treated everyone the same - men and women. Women would often cry, yet they
understood they weren't being treated differently from their male counterparts
as every trainee was treated as s __*. We had a 20% success rate with roughly
2 years of training. When you became a certified controller, it was a big deal
and for males, every controller in the facility would punch the metal ATC
badge into your chest the day of your final rating- it was a rite of passage.

Men treat each other differently and test each other differently, women are
just learning this it seems.

~~~
greglindahl
I wonder what % of the people who "failed" would have made excellent air
traffic controllers?

~~~
jriot
None of them would have. It is a stressful job. We created simulated stressful
environment and they couldn't handle it. We weren't going to spare their
feelings and risk other people's lives.

~~~
TheLilHipster
That point-of-view is so important IMO.

Because of the job environment, as an employee you UNDERSTAND the CONTEXT and
INTENT behind the working conditions.

This logic applies to life and all social interactions. Assume innocence,
positivity and optimism in the INTENT behind the words of strangers - until
they give you a reason to think otherwise.

To anyone who disagrees: If you do not subscribe to this ideal, then what are
you advocating as an alternative? Everyone be extremely PC and hyper-aware of
everything they say and the indefinite amount of ways their words can be
interpreted? it makes just no sense.

Crying foul, fighting to get what you "want" in the moment, rather then what
is true and just - I'm just tired of it all, burnt out by the lack of
rationality in these sorts of discussions.

------
rc_kas
Weird team, weird culture. That kind of shit is definitely not how it is on
all tech teams, including the one I'm on.

~~~
MadSax
Most stories like the OP's can be summed as follows:

1\. Some insensitive asshole was lacking respect or maturity or
professionalism in general. 2\. Women, who are generally more conscientious
than men, naturally react more strongly to said assholes.

I think if you could magically make every employee not act like an asshole,
reports of sexism would drop by 99%.

~~~
KirinDave
This is a comforting fiction, but all you're doing is renaming the special and
unfair treatment men give women to "assholes being assholes."

And sure. Yes. That's not untrue. But read the article. She's particularly
singled out for special treatment.

Redefining the words or claiming it's actually women being "more sensitive" is
just a word game to try making excuses. To do anything but agree, "This is
sexist behavior."

~~~
Klockan
> She's particularly singled out for special treatment.

Where did you read this? In the entire article she didn't even describe anyone
speaking to her or about her except when they apologized, how can this be seen
as singling her out?

------
artursapek
It sounds like your coworkers are man-children. That's not even just sexism,
it's more a general level of extreme immaturity. I wouldn't work with idiots
like that.

~~~
alunchbox
I second this, pretty immature language to be using around a professional
field. It never adds value.

------
jneal
I hope you can find a company where you are treated as an equal. I can
honestly say I've never worked for a company like you describe, so it sounds
more like an issue with the company and not the entire industry as you seem to
suggest.

As a male, I wouldn't stand for this type of behavior from my colleagues.
Personally, I'd be going up the corporate ladder or human resources until I
found someone that make this type of behavior cease, and if it didn't, I would
be gone. I can't even imagine being on the receiving end of something like
that.

~~~
sweetyclem
Bonjour JNeal, Thank you for your kind response. I don't even think it's a
company wide problem, I'm certain the misogynist director is influencing every
one in this department. I think my colleagues will be more careful in the
future, and I will definitely go to the director's boss but I prefer to do it
in 2 weeks, when my contract is done. Have a great evening!

------
howeyc
Obviously this is over the line and totally unprofessional conduct by those
mentioned in the story.

Can anyone come up with a story or things that could be taken as sexist
towards a male? I have a hard time knowing if I'm right in that I think I'd be
fine with this as I don't take this extremely juvenile crap as seriously or if
I'm just really having a hard time being empathetic because I just have never,
nor can I fathom, anything rocking my sense of worth so hard.

Maybe I need to experience being marginalized due to my sex or race or
whatever to be empathetic? I dunno. I'm sure there's more to it that can cause
someone to break down like the person who wrote this. I want to understand.

Do I need a bunch of women to joke about guys with small dicks are worthless
or something? Is that comparable? Should I be extremely offended and be
willing to quit over that, like the world is against me because of it?

I'm honestly wondering here. Please help me understand. I'm serious. I just
don't know what it's like.

~~~
cjbprime
As your comment wrestles with, you _can 't_ know what it's like, because you
don't live under a systemic power imbalance.

The fact that words aren't going to hurt you as much because they aren't
coming from an environment of actual systemic discrimination doesn't mean that
the people who _are_ hurt by words under discrimination are wrong or
irrational.

It just means it's a thing you don't get to experience first-hand and should
attempt to have empathy for nonetheless.

------
pwinnski
And one of the comments on the page is simply "Grow up." Which seems like part
of the problem. But I don't want to judge someone out of context, so I clicked
on their Medium username to see if maybe I'd misunderstood. It turns out every
single comment that user has made is on seven different stories they can make
negative comments about women and their accomplishments.

This nastiness is pervasive, and often carried out by people so blind to their
own participation that they deny what they themselves are doing.

~~~
sokoloff
One account pulled that same move several times on medium and the conclusion
is "this nastiness is pervasive" [in tech] rather than "that poster is an
asshole"?

I seriously doubt the person behind that account denies what they are doing.

------
truebosko
Don't leave tech -- Leave this trash fire of a company.

All the best to you.

------
sokoloff
> Ok, explain me how gender neutral "We don't give a fuck" is sexist

Clémentine shared an article on her team Slack about "I found an article on
why so many women leave engineering, and wanted to share it with my
colleagues."

One of her colleagues replied on the channel with a video saying "We don't
give a fuck"

The combination of those two things is sexist by any possible interpretation I
can think of.

~~~
tbrownaw
Things that probably express similar sentiment, but with different language:

    
    
      * "Not my circus, not my monkeys."
      * "How do things in those other places concern *us*?"
      * "People suck, news at 11."
      * "You think we haven't been hearing this every day already?"
      * "Thanks, but we already have more than enough things to be outraged about."
      * "That doesn't look actionable."
      * "We're here to do work, not to agitate for social change."
    

Does phrasing it in any of those ways still look "sexist by any possible
interpretation I can think of"?

~~~
calibration263
A lot of these I don't think are different phrasings, they're different in
meaning as well.

A closer rephrasing with similar sentiment is: "No one cares"

All the phrasing you provided are combinations of: 1) not applicable to me/us
2) we can't do anything about it

For anyone struggling with empathy, imagine you're feeling frustrated with
something, you share with your coworkers, one replies publicly "no one cares"
and everyone else laughs. Then the next day the thing that was frustrating you
happens a number of times and you can't say anything because it's clear that
everyone doesn't care.

------
Steeeve
I'm a guy, and I would quit if that's the kind of behavior I could expect out
of my colleagues on a regular basis.

I've worked in the industry for a long time, and I have never seen anything
like that.

It seems like a very bad move to alienate 50% of the potential workforce.

------
ra1n85
"Micro aggressions", rape, lives being "destroyed", "emoji-induced tears", and
violence undermine the point of the article. Tragically comedic hyperbole.

Pro tip: The next time someone offends you, call them on it. Stand up for
yourself. We need more people talking and less "retreat and blog".

~~~
KirinDave
Step 1: immediately introduce straw men to knock down.

Step 2: blame the victim of sexual harassment for being there and not finding
a way to not be harassed.

Step 3: Right after telling them to stand up for themselves, immediately shame
them for talking about the experience. It might give them resources to
actually follow the advice you patronizingly tossed out in step 2.

This playbook is old. It's unacceptable. It's a way to try and shield men from
the consequences illegal, unproessional, and immoral actions. It's an attempt
to undermine anyone who notices.

You're doing something awful. Stop it.

~~~
TheLilHipster
I disagree with you, but I'll keep it short.

The author is injecting their own narrative into the words of her colleagues
and is already assuming intent as malicious. The whole racism/sexism view-
point comes from a misunderstanding and attribution of malice to innocent
parties, it's so god damn ironic.

I will not and do not tolerate sexism and racism. But I will also not blindy
accept claims of racism and sexism without intent, context and backstory.
Logic and rationality > outrage and ignorance.

~~~
KirinDave
> The author is injecting their own narrative into the words of her colleagues
> and is already assuming intent as malicious.

I'm sorry. In what professional work environment is "move over I need room for
my big dick" an appropriate statement? In what environment is it appropriate
to actively mock a team member for posting an article, to the point where they
cry in the workplace?

The range in which "intent" would have tipped the ever-sensitive scales of our
judgement was somewhere well before, "This app is big like my dick."

It's ironic that people strive to defend this sort of garbage as work
appropriate, and pass it off as a norm. It was not, and only recently have
some places allowed it to be. Places that open themselves up to justifiable
lawsuits, reduce productivity, make tech work more expensive for everyone, and
increase the sum of human misery in the world.

> I will not and do not tolerate sexism and racism.

Okay good but...

> But I will also not blindy accept claims of racism and sexism without
> intent, context and backstory.

I'm sorry, but ... what on earth are you talking about? What context would
make this okay? What backstory would permit this behavior? To me, this reads
as, "I will oppose it unless I feel like making decisions about unobservable
phenomena.

> Logic and rationality > outrage and ignorance.

The cold hard logic is that actions indistinguishable from sexism by both
third parties and the aggrieved party ARE sexism. Intent is immeasurable.
Pleading intent is asking others to take on an act of faith in defiance of the
facts.

~~~
xupybd
Do you think there is room for a little more empathy here? It's possible that
this group of guys is more socially awkward than is apparent. It doesn't
justify this sort of behaviour, but it really is possible they have no idea
the impact they're having on this woman.

It seems that any response other than total outrage gets shot down as heresy.
I'm just not sure that's the most pragmatic approach to fixing this problem.

Communicating to these guys, the level of hurt they're inflicting may actually
bring a better resolution.

While I'd never make comments like that around at work, I'm very conservative,
I was not aware that someone would be as deeply hurt as the author was. I work
in an environment where jokes like that are common and often come from the
only woman in the office. So I simply had no idea that this could "destroy
people".

It's not the same as sexism, but there are often jokes and discussions that
mock my deeply held religious beliefs. Again totally different, but I've
always felt it was up to me to control my reaction. I can easily get hurt or
offended, that they're rejecting me and that the work place is hostile to
someone that believes as I do. But I work to avoid thinking along those lines
as it will do me no good. I can't change the people around me but I can
develop a resilience such that those things don't bother me.

~~~
KirinDave
> Do you think there is room for a little more empathy here?

That's sort of the question the author posed, now isn't it?

> but it really is possible they have no idea the impact they're having on
> this woman

Presumably some did, as they apologized. Again, exactly what are you proposing
here? At what point does carelessness become neglignece. Are you suggesting
this is a large group of people with a very specific and very similar set of
neurodiverse characteristics?

What?

> I was not aware that someone would be as deeply hurt as the author was. I
> work in an environment where jokes like that are common and often come from
> the only woman in the office. So I simply had no idea that this could
> "destroy people".

If at some point people could stop talking about their dicks and start doing
their jobs that'd be amazing. How do you find time to work in between all the
posturing?

> It's not the same as sexism

Except that it's indistinguishable from sexism without a powerful form of mass
telepathy...

> I can't change the people around me but I can develop a resilience such that
> those things don't bother me

It's impressive that you started off with "Do you think there is room for a
little more empathy here?" and ended with this. It's a total around-the-world
of the gaslight playbook. Be more sensitive and think about the feelings of
the men harassing the woman. And hey, she should be tougher anyways.

What you're saying and promoting is needlessly unfair. Stop it.

~~~
xupybd
>That's sort of the question the author posed, now isn't it?

I think you are saying there needs to be empathy for the author? If you are, I
totally agree. But I was saying also for everyone that is coming down hard on
the guys some empathy there might be more constructive. If they knew the
degree of impact their behavior was having they might moderate their behavior.

>If at some point people could stop talking about their dicks and start doing
their jobs that'd be amazing. How do you find time to work in between all the
posturing?

Yeah sure I'm not a fan of that sort of behavior. I don't think it's posturing
at least in my workplace it tends to be self deprecating humor, of a sexual
nature. But I think you missed my point. I've seen people bond over this kind
of behavior, but never seen someone hurt buy it. The degree of hurt described
by the author is beyond what I'd have thought possible. This is because it is
so commonplace around me. Not because I think it unreasonable.

>Except that it's indistinguishable from sexism without a powerful form of
mass telepathy...

My comment was "It's not the same as sexism, but there are often jokes and
discussions that mock my deeply held religious beliefs". I think you must have
misunderstood? I was saying mocking my beliefs is different to sexism? You
disagree?

>It's impressive that you started off with "Do you think there is room for a
little more empathy here?" and ended with this. It's a total around-the-world
of the gaslight playbook. Be more sensitive and think about the feelings of
the men harassing the woman. And hey, she should be tougher anyways.

I'm not saying she should shut up and be okay with this. I'm saying everyone
is in control of their own emotions. You can limit the amount of influence you
allow others to have over your emotions. If you do this your life will be
better. Only let those who love you and you trust be strong influences of your
emotions. Because bad people exist and you will have to interact with them. By
all means call them out, get them removed from power. But never ever let them
get under your skin. You have the ability to rise above that, to be sovereign
over your happiness.

I also find the accusation of gaslighting unfair. This is a form of systematic
psychological manipulation. It's a big deal to accuse someone of that.

>What you're saying and promoting is needlessly unfair. Stop it.

I think that you've misunderstood me as I don't think anything I'm promoting
is unfair.

~~~
KirinDave
> But I think you missed my point. I've seen people bond over this kind of
> behavior, but never seen someone hurt buy it.

How would you know? Are you confident everyone around you would be comfortable
telling you that your behavior hurt them?

> My comment was "It's not the same as sexism, but there are often jokes and
> discussions that mock my deeply held religious beliefs".

Hey. I wanna draw a line here as well. These conversations are ALSO not work
appropriate, in the same sense that it is not appropriate for a Christian to
suggest gay people don't deserve equal rights.

Those topics are best left out of the workplace.

> I'm not saying she should shut up and be okay with this. I'm saying everyone
> is in control of their own emotions.

This is false, according to the science. What's more, keeping a tight reign on
one's behavior comes at a mental cost, and that energy could be better spent
elsewhere.

> You can limit the amount of influence you allow others to have over your
> emotions.

Please consider updating your information here. This is victorian era stuff.

> I also find the accusation of gaslighting unfair. This is a form of
> systematic psychological manipulation

I think you're complicit in gaslighting. You're suggesting we have more
empathy for the people causing pain because they just don't know. You deflect
talk of gender harassment by re-centering the conversation on religious
beliefs. Then you STILL rebutt her feelings by saying SHE specifically should
be in more control.

Yes, it's a pretty big deal. But I think maybe yours is the more honest sort
of gaslighting, where you're conditioned to accept this behavior. I suspect if
you critically examine it more you'll realize that the cons of allowing it far
outweigh the pros.

~~~
xupybd
Okay I'm out. All the best. But I don't think we're going to come to agreement
here.

------
planck01
I don't see any sexism in this story. Some people just are rude and there are
assholes everywhere. What the author describes is a group dynamic going sour
and alpha behavior. Everone, male or female, will experience this at some
point in their life. That sucks, but it will never change as it is part of the
human condition. Also, being a woman doesn't mean you are entitled to
emotionel gentler treatment.

------
KirinDave
It's a terrible example of how these stories are suppressed when Hacker News
allows them to be flagged off.

This story is relevant to tech, compelling and topical. It was receiving
upvotes that put it on the front page. But it got flagged to oblivion in under
an hour.

Edit: Update, either enough people vouched on an invisible article (via
twitter?) to unflag, or the mods intervened. We'll see.

~~~
striking
Remember, if you find an article worthy of discussion being flagged or
otherwise suppressed, email the mods. They'll take care of it.

------
Danihan
This sounds like an HR issue.

Does this company have a HR department? If so, what was their response?

~~~
Adamantcheese
By the sound of it, it's only the 8 people in the entire company. No place for
HR in a company that small.

~~~
greglindahl
In a company of 8 people, it's a "corporate culture" problem and is 100% the
fault of leadership, which probably isn't going to change.

------
rdiddly
Company sounds like a bunch of clowns. This is one of the things VCs are
thinking about when they talk about bringing in "adult supervision."

------
borplk
I have not read the post.

I just want to say whatever "ism" is involved you can find it in any industry
you wish. It's a person thing not an industry thing.

Have you seen any discussions about "sexism in the coal mining industry"?

Somehow in tech people attribute each and every personal experience and
anecdote to the industry and as far as I can see it's unique to tech.

When a female employee has her ass grabbed in your average boring accounting
firm it doesn't make headlines. But if it happens in a tech startup office in
SV suddenly it's treated like a crisis in the entire industry.

I don't get it.

------
pm90
I want to ask this question as gently as possible: Is it acceptable or common
in French culture/companies to use a phrase such as "Move over I need a place
for my big dick"? It sounds so aggressive and hare-brained that I can't really
imagine anyone in the US saying that without begging for a sexual harassment
case targeted towards them.

To be 100% clear: I'm not justifying this behavior at all. My point is that
when having a beer with friends, its common to joke around like that. I'm just
wondering if in French culture, when going out for drinks, if its common or
socially acceptable to make these jokes. From the lady's viewpoint, it seems
like its not.

~~~
waterlink
From a straight-man point of view (me) it is also not acceptable.

~~~
tickthokk
From a manager, while in the workplace, sure.

At a bar, drinking beer? I dunno, sounds like they were joking around. If I
can't talk about body parts at a bar while drinking beer, I'm not sure where
you can.

~~~
waterlink
Why would I want to talk about these parts in the bar? Or why would I want to
hear about them from someone else?

I can't talk about these parts at the bar. And I'll feel very uncomfortable
and will have to ask that person in the group to stop if they were to do that.

I hold a belief that one needs to maintain professional (or at least semi-
professional) conduct in the bar too. Otherwise, it is just too immature.

------
Rjevski
In this case it looks more like your team/company is shit. Even as a male
something like "I need room for my big dick" would've made me very
uncomfortable in a professional setting.

------
Allvitende
This is a reflection of your coworkers not an entire industry.

~~~
ebcode
Rather, this is a reflection of an entire culture of woman-hating and female
disempowerment that has been prevalent since Aeschylus wrote The Oresteia, of
which these coworkers at this one small company are but a typical example.

------
0xCMP
Thank you for sharing. This is a wonderful story/example of what a
microagression is and how hurtful it can be even though it was not a targeted
attack.

I believe these stories, as they're shared and read, are making a difference
which will end up being a better industry for all sexes. I believe that
because stories like this have educated me and my intuition is that it's
educated and influenced others too. Which means more change is coming.

------
bpyne
The team described may exhibit an extreme behavior. But, I think it's fair to
say that women experience "death by a thousand cuts" in male-dominated fields,
not just Tech.

I also think that young men learn the lesson of disregarding women early. I
started coaching co-ed youth basketball recently. At ages 10-12, boys are
already disregarding their female teammates as potential contributors. The
boys aren't overtly hostile. They just don't even think about passing to the
girls. They don't trust the girls to play good defense, so the boys try to
cover too much floor, ironically allowing more points to be scored against us.
I'm steadily working with them on trust and inclusiveness. But, it amazes me
that they're so young and already need to unlearn negative behaviors.

------
cosmic_ape
That's a terrible team, hopefully non representative. I haven't ever seen a
work environment that would be even close to producing something like this.

However, looking at the article itself, there is some irony in using a picture
of a woman in a bra, tousled hair, as a title picture for an article on
sexism.

Is this how the author comes to work? Is this how a woman programmer should be
pictured? Its also not the first time these type of articles, with these type
of pictures appear, even here on HN.

~~~
_sp
The image seems to be a representation of the oppression women in tech face. I
guess the model is wearing that because she's in water. Only the jeans look
out of place IMO, not the swim appropriate top.

------
jsymolon
There are many great places to work. In my 20+ years, i've never ran across
that toxic attitude.

Maybe it's time to publicly shame those workplaces.

------
mustacheemperor
Everyone begging for this company to be doxxed is no doubt just hoping to
evaluate it and begin a "no true scotsman" argument that excludes this
behavior from our industry from a whole, and, most importantly, excludes their
own team/company from being part of the problem.

------
swframe2
Slightly off topic but ... Women in tech please do this ...

Focus on a different and more important problem. Find a Director/VP level
employee to be your mentor. Basically, I feel, to fix these issues we need
more leadership diversity. Focus on getting more power.

------
omot
Where do you work? This is unacceptable. They should be publicly shamed.

~~~
nxsynonym
Normally I'm not against blasting companies based on a single data
point/experience, but if this is really how those colleagues acted I would be
shouting this companies name from the rooftops.

It sucks that this is able to happen. It's even worse that its common enough
to be thought of as an industry standard.

I don't really have anything to add (for op) other than leave that company
immediately, shame them, and move on.

~~~
mattnewton
I would advise the tactical route of leaving, acquiring gainful employment
elsewhere, then shaming. Got to look out for yourself first.

------
SoCool
Seriously..someone needs to get fired to use such profanity over slack channel
in an office environment

------
adamc
Seems like her colleagues have the maturity of 15-year-olds.

------
antgly
You almost left tech because a bunch in tech are socially awkward weirdos who
don't give a crap about other people. Period. It's not about being a woman...
it's that the tech field is full of anti-social shit.

~~~
KirinDave
Yo I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you've never had a woman and a
manager walk up and say "Move over I need room for my big tits."

I'm sure those experiences can exist in this world, but data we have paints a
picture that these "socially awkward weirdos" aren't so weird and special and
snowflake. They're garden variety sexists of the most boring and hurtful sort.

~~~
alexandercrohde
So, I think there is a worthwhile discussion here that's getting lost in all
the emotions. The discussion comes down to this "Should we look at this as a
gender debate, or an engineering debate?"

I can see why gp wouldn't want to see it as a gender debate, because it
negates the negative experience some men have around other toxic male
engineers.

I can also see why you wouldn't want to deny the sexist element's existence,
that would just seem counter-factual.

I also want to express a hesitation to reduce this to a gender issue, because
I find it so often creates an US-vs-THEM mentality. Because I'm a guy, and I
think many managers in engineering are abusive, and I don't think the fact
that the abuse isn't throwing out the word "pussy" negates the severity of the
situation.

Consider Japan, where stress at work has gotten so bad, the country has made a
goal of reducing suicide rates. I think we need to unite around work standards
before we get to that point, not as guys vs girls, but as workers vs
investors.

~~~
KirinDave
> because I find it so often creates an US-vs-THEM mentality.

Maybe if workplaces were not deliberately enforcing a men-at-the-expense-of-
women social norm, this notion wouldn't exist.

> Consider Japan

No, I'd rather not. A reductive analysis of Japan's workplace dynamics isn't
helpful here.

~~~
alexandercrohde
I find your response dismissive and counterproductive.

I don't understand on what basis you can discount the realities of alternative
cultures.

~~~
KirinDave
> I find your response dismissive and counterproductive.

Then you are perceptive. I have no interest in discussing the complex
landscape of Japan's gender roles, historical context, current economic
issues, their declining birthrate, and their intersection with the current
prime minister.

We need not point to any of that to agree that this behavior reported in the
article is indefensible.

Your first instinct upon hearing this is to say, "Yes, well, that seems
inappropriate but really I think this isn't about how we treat women but how
we treat engineers." Yet you follow through later in the thread with the
contextually audacious claim that I'm overly dismissive?

Productivity here will be limited.

~~~
alexandercrohde
[I recognize at this point the topic has changed from gender to effective
discourse on HN.]

> Your first instinct upon hearing this is to say, "Yes, well, that seems
> inappropriate but really I think this isn't about how we treat women but how
> we treat engineers." Yet you follow through later in the thread with the
> contextually audacious claim that I'm overly dismissive?

I definitely did not say that. Perhaps you should reread what I did say: that
we have a choice of how to interpret things like this. I'm sensing that you
think if one doesn't interpret this as sexist that this is somehow an attack
on women, because you seem really defensive.

I'd also challenge you to examine your own motivations, because if you think
this short back-and-forth has furthered a cause it has only served to
reinforce my caution in trying to intellectually engage on prickly topics [and
make snarky "triggered" jokes amongst friends / reddit].

------
justadeveloper2
I wanted to offer some thoughts to the author of this piece. I don't wish to
belittle you or make light of your situation. But I do want to point out a few
things. Foremost, you need to understand that free expression is not illegal
and does not necessarily fall under sexual harassment law, most of which deal
only with harassment by those in positions of authority against their direct
reports. Companies have all kinds of sexual harassment policies they have
cooked up but those policies are for protecting the company against lawsuits,
not you. There is no legal recourse and probably no HR recourse, either.

Annoying cads exist everywhere. How you deal with them is what matters and it
doesn't just happen to women and minorities, as much as our culture of
identity politics and victimhood would lead us to believe. I'm a white guy (oh
so privileged) and have had plenty of horrifying incidents with people whom I
have worked with, some to the point where I quit the job I had just to be free
from my antagonists, which is exactly what they wanted.

What I am trying to tell you is that there are sociopaths and people with
Borderline Personality Disorder and they are everywhere in corporate America
and waiting for their next victim to walk by. There is no avoiding all of
them. All you can do is learn to deal with them in such a way that it does not
tear you down psychologically--and yes, sometimes that means getting away from
your abuser.

I once had a co-worker who had it out for me for no particular reason other
than he is an out-and-out asshole seeking to protect his comfy, do-nothing job
that my software would eventually have automated out of existence. He would
seed distrust and fear about my project behind my back to all the major
stakeholders, every meeting I was in with him was nothing but a knife-fight
with me defending my team of developers from outrageous allegations, he used
every sneaky trick in the book to attack my credibility without once taking a
direct, personal jab at me. Despite that, I was completely undermined and
ineffective in my role. I talked to my manager, to HR, none of them did a damn
thing about this guy. He was absolute poison to that company...crickets. So I
know a thing or two about these kinds of issues having been harassed for
months on end albeit not in a sexual manner.

In another case, there was a VMS administrator at a major healthcare company
who didn't want to see his comfy VMS admin job end by my team replacing the
crappy, way out of date, COBOL-based shit system that barely worked. He won--I
gave up and left that place for greener pastures and that company is still
stupidly running that piece of crap system at the cost of millions of dollars
and it was so bad that it cost them all their profits in a major line of
business. All because of one intractable personality and really nothing else.

------
qb45
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

 _What to Submit

On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes
more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the
answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're
evidence of some interesting new phenomenon._

I too normally dislike things disappearing from the front page in 5 minutes
but I made an exception for this submission and flagged it because such
stories are dime in a dozen and this one brings zero new information, solves
nothing and mainly just perpetuates hostility.

~~~
sctb
We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14868934](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14868934)
and marked it off-topic.

~~~
KirinDave
Fair enough. Thanks for the note. I was confused.

------
omot
Why was this flagged?!

------
computerex
Provide evidence. If it's so prevalent it shouldn't be hard. We all know about
Uber, come up with something original. You are accusing the entire industry as
a whole after all from little firms to giants.

~~~
wfunction
These two articles went around a while ago (Microsoft, Pinterest):

[1]
[https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/18/11262888](https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/18/11262888)

[2] [https://qz.com/659196](https://qz.com/659196)

~~~
MadSax
Given the number of UFO sighting claims, you would think everyone's chance of
encountering a silent flying saucer shaped object in their lifetime is near
100%. My point is, everyone sympathizes with stories of abuse/sexism/racism,
but the number of articles written about them doesn't prove they happen
frequently or even that they happen in the majority of workplaces.

~~~
rhcom2
Sexism claims can be backed up by facts, courts, admissions of guilt. They're
nothing like UFO sightings.

------
gorkonsine
Not exactly.

Suppose you're living in Saudi Arabia as a woman, and men there are treating
you very poorly and in a sexist manner. Should you conclude that "men have a
big problem with sexism"? No. The correct conclusion is that "men in Saudi
Arabia have a big problem with sexism". Go to someplace like Norway and you're
probably not going to see the same dynamic.

The same is likely true here: she's in France. I've never worked in the tech
industry in France. However, I've worked in a bunch of different companies, in
different industries, as a software engineer here in the US, and on both
coasts too. I've never seen behavior like this. So IMO, the conclusion should
be "the tech industry in France is misogynistic". The answer for her,
therefore, IMO is to get the hell out of France.

~~~
dang
> _The answer for her, therefore, IMO is to get the hell out of France_

Regional and cultural differences are real, and have a much larger influence
on Hacker News than is commonly realized. But bringing that up as you did in
this thread, by pouring national flamebait into a gender flamewar, is
definitely not using HN as intended.

Moreover we've warned you repeatedly and asked you to fix this and you
haven't. Therefore I'm banning you again. If you genuinely want to use HN as
intended you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com, but would you please stop
creating accounts to break HN's rules with?

We detached this comment from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14868502](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14868502)
and marked it off-topic.

------
DrNuke
The girl is right but sociopaths and weirdos will often outnumber her, not
only in the coding field. I am afraid her reaction shows she has a long way to
go before developing the thick skin she needs to survive and assert herself.

~~~
KirinDave
Alternatively we could use the beloved principle of meritocracy to point out
that none of those people are the kind of geniuses that would offset the cost
of a sexual harassment lawsuit and they should all be disciplined and possibly
fired for their unprofessional conduct.

But sure. Tell her to 'grow up.' Tell her that because there are bad people in
the world, it's her responsibility and role to accept and cater to them.

------
labster
Oh look, a few hackernews flagged this article to keep women in their place.
Stay classy.

Anyway, if I saw what OP saw at her company, I would quit. And I identify as
male. And I think we owe it to women to deny sexist companies access to hiring
the 90% of programmers who aren't jerks. Well, 80%.

------
negativ0
from the article looks like everything started just after the author posted a
link on the slack channel. maybe just avoid posting this articles on slack.
you are supposed to work not to rise a fire. if you had problem about sexism
in the company you should leave/complain and not trying to fix something
chitchatting on slack.

------
nk1tz
You should publicly denounce this company, in your article and here on HN.

Grab as much evidence of the unacceptable behavior and put it online for all
to see.

