
One Road Out of Depression - wayofthesamurai
https://thinkfaster.co/2016/10/one-road-out-of-depression/
======
crispweed
I experienced some depression, as a teenager, and remember eventually finding
a kind of 'logical' (or perhaps 'philosophical') way out of it.

A key part of this was that, for me, depression is linked to lack of purpose.
So there was this question hanging over me, 'what is the purpose of it all'.
Well the answer to that question was then essentially 'why are you asking?'.

Putting it less glibly, if you are unhappy about your life, and need some
purpose, then introspection about your unhappiness (exactly what are you
unhappy about?) can be a way to find for yourself a kind of implied purpose.

And then, another part of it was the realisation that depression can actually
make you more powerful, in some ways. To explain this a bit more, if you find
yourself in a state where you are not so much able to be motivated by simple
desires, then you are also not constrained by them. So, you are able to do
do/achieve things that you might not normally be able to do, because you would
get bored, for example, or be distracted by the need to do things that make
you happy.

And I kind of liked the idea, and aesthetic, of 'just getting your head down
and moving stolidly forward'. And, 'if you can't find something to do that
will make you happy or interested, maybe you are then free to do something
that is _right_ '.

~~~
M_Grey
I just want to add a cautionary note, which is that sometimes introspection
isn't the solution, but the problem itself. Especially in the case of a
combination of depression and anxiety, it may be that introspection drops you
further down the rabbit hole, when the way out is to _do_ not _think_.

~~~
crispweed
Fair point.

But on the other hand, not exploring the root cause of a problem can be like
papering over the cracks..

~~~
mercer
Also a fair point.

But exploring the root cause can be dangerous when the tool you use to do this
_is_ the source of the problem.

This is part of the reason why outside help (professional or otherwise) can be
crucial to finding a solution. If your own brain is the source of problems, it
makes sense to find something outside yourself to seek a solution.

------
patrickdavey
When I got Depressed (capital D, though I was only 4 on a 10 point scale) the
hardest part for me was accepting that I needed to take medication, that I
couldn't WILL myself better (not for want of trying I can tell you).

Maybe some people can think themselves better, but if you are properly
depressed, and your doctor is suggesting medication, it's not
failing/losing/lessening to take the drugs to correct a chemical imbalance.
And stay on them until you're supposed to come off (not when you begin to feel
better), as the last thing you want is to ping-pong between highs & lows.

Of course, fix the underlying issue (if there is one) when you can (i.e. see a
psychologist and get proper instruction), but you want to get to a stable
place first.

This is just my comment, a sample size of 1, but if it helps anyone else
reading through this, so much the better.

~~~
curun1r
> that I couldn't WILL myself better (not for want of trying I can tell you).

Trying to will myself better didn't work for me either. But medication made
things so much worse. I was emotionally numb for a decade because I bought
into the thinking that the medication was helping. It allowed me to get back
to work, but I lost 10 years in the prime of my life that I'll never get back.
Ironically, having so many regrets for those 10 years clued me into the
damaging thought patterns that were causing my depression. My mind was
spending too much time thinking about the past and visualizing the future.

A conscious emphasis on being present and living in the moment has done
wonders for me. And I only mention this because your comment felt like willing
yourself better was the only way to think your way out of depression, which is
absolutely not the case. Sometimes perspective matters more than
determination.

~~~
chrisper
What did the people who told you to take the medication tell you about the
issue of feeling numb?

~~~
bpchaps
I used to take lithium and brought up to my doctor that it destroyed my
creativity, which affected my job. His answer was, "Then the medication is
doing its job."

Psychiatry has been a very unempathetic field in my experience (across 4-5
doctors), so a "deal with it" response would be unsurprising.

~~~
joesmo
After I lost my dad, that's what the therapist I tried to see said: "Deal with
it." At that point, I realized I was wasting my money. It took many more
years, almost losing everything, and sheer fucking willpower to undo what the
psychiatrists did with their meds. "Take your meds like a mindless cow," is
psychiatry's attitude because they're making incredible profits off your
sickness. And they get the patients to evangelize (see the top parent comment
in this thread) and spread their nonsense while people are getting sick,
dying, or at least wasting a whole lot of money on drugs that don't help them.

Unempathetic doesn't even begin to describe the profession. Anti-Hippocratic
oath might be the place to start if you're looking for a way to describe this
field. Profit driven would be even better.

------
Briel
I used to replay the same negative thoughts as well. Here's how I broke free:

Reframe all your negative thoughts.

I used to obsess about past mistakes. Thought: "I wish I didn't do that."
Reframe: "If I didn't do that, I wouldn't have learned that lesson to be the
person I am today. Or in the position I am today."

Stop worrying about problems that haven't even materialized yet and very
likely never will.

We waste tons of mental energy worrying about problems that never happen. If
you don't believe me, make a list of all you worries about near future events.
Wait a week and see how many of them actually happen. You'll find 99% didn't.

This one was the hardest to put into practice: be kind to yourself.

A lot of people believe that if you stop criticizing yourself, you won't
learn. You won't improve. You'll become arrogant.

When you criticize yourself, you actually make it even harder to learn from
your experiences / actions. Why? Because when we feel badly, we're not very
productive about forming ideas on how to change and putting them into action.
Instead, we seek distractions (sometimes really unhealthy ones) to try to make
ourselves feel better.

When you do something that leads to a negative outcome for you, preventing
that negative outcome from happening again is enough motivation to change in
of itself. You don't need to make yourself feel bad to learn and change.

~~~
kayman
This is the basis of CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy). Rewrite the negative
loops of thought with constructive ones.

~~~
mercer
And, further 'down' there's zen buddhism. I've had very good experiences with
CBT, but as a fan of zen buddhism, on some level I couldn't help but wonder if
CBT sometimes still emphasizes/reifies 'thoughts' a bit too much.

Perhaps CBT is effective precisely because it's a kind of middle-ground. It's
hard to describe, but CBT sometimes felt like bug-fixing when perhaps
refactoring the whole thing was in order.

But then again in my daily life I regularly face the difficulty of choosing
between fixing bugs and rewriting the whole thing, and I haven't found an easy
answer. Try one, and if it doesn't work try the other?

------
costcopizza
The "chemical imbalance" theory has been losing steam for quite some time.

The British Psychological Society has issued this consensus statement: _There
is actually no evidence for the current view – and we agree with many senior
psychiatrists in saying that – we do have an overwhelming amount of evidence
that even severe psychiatric breakdown is actually the end result of a complex
mix of social and psychological circumstances. People who have suffered things
like bereavement, loss, discrimination, poverty, trauma, abuse, domestic
violence, in other words things that have happened to you._

From my experience, and many others, we have a script running in the
background of our minds. Nonstop. This script is brutal, telling us we're
worthless, unable to do this, will always be alone, etc etc. It gets etched in
our mind and we become it, and likely impacts all aspects of our brain
chemistry. (Depressed patients are often deficient in many key areas Omega 3,
Magnesium, Vitamin B, etc)

[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-depression-
jus...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-depression-just-bad-
chemistry/)

~~~
amp108
One thing, please, for anyone on this board, or anyone who intends to advise
anyone about whether or not they should take medications:

Unless you are a doctor, you have no advice to give. Unless you are a doctor
and have examined a patient, you have no advice to give except to that
patient.

I don't care what good or bad experience _you personally_ had with medication;
people respond differently, and it does not qualify you to give advice to
anyone about any drug they are considering taking.

~~~
perfectfire
I respectfully disagree. I would agree that someone-that-isn't-your-doctor
shouldn't _tell_ people what they should do, but hearing the personal
experiences of numerous people that have taken certain medications or had
certain therapies is invaluable. This is quite different than "regular"
diseases and maladies. The drugs and therapies for psychological diseases
aren't well understood and are very hit-and-miss. Like you said people respond
differently, so hearing the experiences of multiple people can be just as, or
much more valuable than your doctor's recommendation which may be based solely
on a datasheet they read and maybe tried on a few patients. You may hear
experiences of drugs that your doctor has never prescribed before or has never
even heard of before. It's not uncommon for a psychiatrist to have certain go-
to medications that they use almost exclusively. If those don't work for you,
then getting advice from other patients can be a lifesaver.

The medication that helped me the most by far was not recommended to me by my
doctor. I recommended it. And I found the medication through an ad in the
lobby of the doctor's office plus I was considering that class of medication
based on the experience of my mother. People rail on prescription medication
advertising, but I might not be alive today if not for that ad. And that ad
could have easily been a recommendation by a handful of random internet
strangers (in fact I would trust the internet strangers more because it's less
likely they have an agenda whereas the ad definitely has an agenda).

~~~
mcguire
" _...but hearing the personal experiences of numerous people that have taken
certain medications or had certain therapies is invaluable..._ "

...in roughly the same way that the personal experiences of numerous people of
psychic phenomena, UFOs, and the supernatural are invaluable. Or personal
experiences of the safety of commercial aviation. Or that the sky is blue.

Anecdotes aren't data, data isn't always applicable, other people are
frequently more concerned with themselves than helping you, and your mileage
will vary.

~~~
perfectfire
> of numerous people of psychic phenomena, UFOs, and the supernatural are
> invaluable.

No, not at all. How would that be valuable? If psychic phenomena, UFOs and the
supernatural were definitely real things that could help your difficult to
solve problems, just not well understood and could vary in effect from person
to person then they would be valuable. But they are not any of those things.

> Anecdotes aren't data

They definitely are.

> data isn't always applicable

Oh, certainly. 5 internet peoples say Drug Q helped with craziness syndrome
even though that's an off-label use doesn't mean it will totally definitely
work for you. But if you've tried everything else, 5 anecdotal experiences is
far better than the 0 anecdotal experiences and zero studies of the zero other
options you have.

> other people are frequently more concerned with themselves than helping you

How is this at all relevant? Maybe because a doctor gets kickbacks for
prescribing a drug and so prescribes that drug despite it not being likely to
help much? But that's just a good reason not to rely solely on your doctor.
Nobody is more concerned about you than you. Doctors can have ulterior motives
and can be working with out of date information especially when it comes to
off-label uses of drugs. Common off-label uses became common because of
anecdotes. And sometimes those anecdotes spurred the company making the drug
to get it approved for that use. This isn't at all like UFOs.

> your mileage will vary

I am well aware of that. But some people are getting mileage out of it and the
worst that could happen is I get no mileage just like am getting now (not
right now, but before I found the right meds).

------
swimorsinka
Author here. Thanks for all the comments, I'm surprised to see so much
interest here on Hacker News. I figured this would be one of my posts that
collected dust.

For the record, my way out of this happened to be psychological, but that
doesn't mean I'm against medication. It just didn't happen to be my
experience, so I can't comment on it. I try to avoid topics I don't know
anything about.

~~~
upstarter
Reading through the suggestions here, I would suggest, if you're in a really
deep hole, combine as much as you can from "all of the above".

~~~
swimorsinka
Agreed. At this point, I use meditation, exercise, omega 3 supplementation,
and therapy all in addition to the mental attitudes I discussed.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
I've an odd question for you: How did you wind up sticking with meditation?
What made you notice that it helped and how long did that take?

I generally quit after 2-3 months. At first it is kind of nice, but as time
goes, I become a bit frustrated and bored. I don't notice a difference in
myself, and I always wonder if it isn't just that I don't know what I should
be looking for.

I'm mostly asking to get your personal perspective on it, in the hopes that I
might identify with it.

~~~
swimorsinka
I'm careful about suggesting meditation to my friends because I think it's
different for everybody.

For me, I've always had high anxiety. OCD is essentially anxiety when you boil
it down to its core. That means I carry around a great deal of stress,
sometimes to the point where I can feel it in my stomach all day every day.

3-5 days of meditation makes this feeling go away. I've seen studies that show
your cortisol drops after 3-5 days of doing it for 20-30 mins a day.

So to answer your question: I notice it a lot when I stop. I still fall off on
the habit periodically, but I see the benefits shortly after I start again.

Some of the benefits for me: * Less Stress. * I make better eye contact with
people because I'm not anxiously looking away. * I listen to my employees (and
everyone) better because I'm not so tempted to interrupt them when they're
speaking. * My body feels better - any pain or injuries I have get better. *
My focus during the workday is dramatically improved. I don't get distracted
nearly as easily.

But for someone who has less natural anxiety, I can imagine not having as many
benefits. So use the classic test: if it helps you, keep doing it. If you
don't see any benefit, then don't bother. Don't do it just because you think
you ::should::.

~~~
itschekkers
Sorry to hear about your experience, but I'm glad you have found ways of
managing symptoms. Like you say, people absolutely do respond differently to
different medications. I'm a researcher at Yale, and we've been developing
algorithms to figure out which antidepressant is most likely to help a
specific patient. We've published some papers, and made our algorithm
available online through our startup (www.spring.care/spring-assessment). If
you find it helpful, please do send us feedback!! hello at spring dot care

------
petercooper
My "road out" was having kids and taking on a _lot_ of responsibility (both
family and business). It's worked for 7 years now and I've never felt happier
and mentally healthy, even if I am super busy and under a lot of pressure :-)
I never thought I'd be the sort of person to thrive on pressure but it turns
out I am.

~~~
Jtsummers
I think many people do who don't realize it. There's a balance, certainly, and
having a cause that you care about helps a great deal.

Pressure from a job that just feels like a grind can leave you feeling
stressed and unessential (why do we need yet another widget?!?).

Pressure in supporting people you care about (family, friends), a country, a
cause (ending hunger, eliminating a disease, etc.), and so on can leave you
feeling stress, certainly, but also a sense of having a purpose.

~~~
webmaven
Pressure is a fine motivator (we all know people who do their best work when
under a tight deadline), but only if you are capable of being realistic about
the _consequences of failure_ (and attribution of blame).

If you raise the stakes enough for almost anyone (or they are of a mindset to
ratchet those stakes up for themselves) it can be paralyzing, unless the
consequences of _not_ making a decision are somehow worse.

In some ways, SV-style celebration of failure is great, but if you're fixated
on a "Unicorn or Bust" (or even an "FU money or Bust") career path, well,
having a few "busts" in a row (which is a fairly likely outcome, even if you
have both a good idea and execution) might just kill you.

In this sense, choosing a cause to have a sense of purpose may be a terrible
option for some folks to pursue, since the consequences of not solving it
_completely_ are still dire - eg. don't choose to work on solving the World
Hunger Problem if, having eliminated 90% of the problem in five years, you are
going to blame yourself for the less tractable remaining 10% that still die of
malnutrition and hunger.

------
rickdale
I am going to suggest something that is not usually suggested. But I have seen
it work wonders. Find a place where it is legal, and grow marijuana. If it
suits you, smoke it, but ultimately start a garden and grow the plant.

People refer to the medicinal values of marijuana, but the one fact that is
scientifically proven that is often left out is that having a garden and
working in a garden is good for your mental health. That is not speculation.

This part is speculation. I believe a marijuana is the perfect plant to grow
if you are fighting depression. First off, potentially you can harvest every
60-70 days. That means every single day you have to take care of the plants,
but every day they grow significantly. Problems one day are disasters the next
and if you can just stick to it every day, there's a harvest which can be
rewarding monetarily or just intrinsically. If you are really good at it, you
will find out that you are actually helping a bunch of people with all sorts
of medical conditions. So the reward is comes fast, and then you can start
again! Also, one more point, the grow lights can be another form of light
therapy.

I have journaled about this stuff in the past, this is just a brief overview
of my feelings of the hidden benefits of cannabis. Like the title states, this
is just _One Road_ and often the one less traveled...

~~~
rmwaite
Just want to say, this is terrible advice. If only because marijuana is
illegal in most states. I can buy the gardening advice, but I would suggest
something legal.

~~~
rickdale
Not true. 25 States and DC currently have medical marijuana laws AND more to
come after today.

[http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourc...](http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000881)

------
alexashka
Cliff notes: guy raised in a family of over-achievers, worked himself to the
bone while never taking the time to grow up emotionally, hoping achievement
would fill the gap.

It didn't, he had to face that fact and now that he's let go of the false
hopes of success fixing his life - he's slowly but surely getting his shit
together and is very glad to be doing so.

Perhaps the one thing missing from this article is how common this is - I see
it all the time, in all walks of life. You have to address whatever is really
bothering you, sooner or later. The more you put it off and try to band-aid
it, the harder it will be later on.

A quote that I really liked related to this is - a year from now, you'll wish
you had started today.

That resonated with me.

~~~
agumonkey
I too got stuck into a restricted life path because that was a very plausible
and effective life drive (the neverending good student). Until it stopped.
Gotta realign your priorities (emotional, familial and social balance) and
it's surprisingly difficult for a while.

It's hard to avoid over specification in life, it's a natural reflex to aim at
what seems and feels the best, thinking the rest, scary and annoying has no
value whatsoever.

I write this very very often nowadays. I'm sad that our cultures completely
ignores such things, and itself too, optimizes for other indicators (economy,
foo) while so many people spend years in life confusion because simple things
aren't said earlier.

~~~
deltawave
Do you or somebody else have an idea on where I could explore this idea
further, in terms of books, websites etc…? Having semi-recently graduated
University and moved out on my own, I am having quite a few personal issues
related to an achievement-obsession that I have been socialized into but which
is holding me back from much day-to-day happiness.

~~~
agumonkey
No, I never researched this, mostly because I had to cope with too many little
problems to really deal with things calmly and I don't even know if there's a
term or idiom about this. I mentioned it a few times on the web and you're the
first to actually discuss it. At least you seem to be aware of it and ready to
reflect.

------
upstarter
I was able to drop anti-depressants with 1 super-well-prepared LSD experience
in nature. Since then, I do meditation daily, up to 1.5 hours at most (Jon
Kabat-Zinn's mindful meditation method). Plus, I redo LSD once every 6 months.
This worked extremely well.

The pharma industry hates me for saying that. Not sorry.

~~~
ythl
> with 1 super-well-prepared LSD experience in nature

Please tell me you didn't run naked into a jungle

------
drhayes9
I finally realized I was depressed when I couldn't remember a time I wasn't
angry. I didn't know that constant irritation and low-level anger are _also_
depression symptoms. I remembered trouble sleeping and no energy and sadness,
but "anger" was new to me. When I started getting pissed at other drivers and
couldn't be patient with my son, my wife said, "Are you okay?"

I wasn't. I was depressed. I started taking medication and I slowly got
better. I still had a lot of the mental habits of depression ("How long has it
been since I've showered?" and "Why aren't I telling my friends what I'm going
through?") but I worked on those. And I asked for help, from everyone who
loved me. And they helped a lot. Who knew! ( =

~~~
da02
How old was your son and what were the things that he did that made you
impatient with him? He didn't want to do homework or chores?

~~~
drhayes9
He was three, and was mostly just being a toddler: he would get grumpy, get
frustrated and yell when he couldn't do things, was making us tell him stuff
dozens of times, over and over.

My responses felt reasonable at the time. Why wouldn't I get angry at him when
he yelled at me? Oh, right, _he 's a toddler and I'm an adult_. I've been in
the saddle with respect to my emotions for decades. This could, no fooling,
only be the 200th time he's ever been truly angry. I'm the responsible one
here. Realizing I lost sight of that perspective was what took me by surprise
and scared me a little.

------
rl3
Trying to work on a startup when your emotional gas tank is on empty is
basically a cruel paradox. Doing anything productive is virtually impossible
when you're consumed with self-hatred.

By the same token, starting a startup because you have nothing to lose is
generally a terrible idea, because the aforementioned tank is already empty
before you even begin. Road trips seldom succeed when you have to push the
entire way.

While the author didn't make the latter mistake per se, his situation sounds
more akin to having embarked upon a road trip with a single tank of gas, and
no gas stations along the route.

------
manmal
There's lots of good advice here already - let me add one, for the supplement
lovers: Find a good probiotic and run with it for a few months. You might feel
some benefits for mood after only a couple days. I've tried a lot of
supplements in the last few years (any kind of vitamin, and some broadest-band
multivitamins, even methylation stuff like Methyl-B12, Folate, active B6) -
but the only ones that really made an impact were probiotics. My favorite
probiotics are Mutaflor and Prescript Assist, both costing ~€1 per day - but
they are so worth it. Call me a lunatic, but they affect my mood in different
ways. Mutaflor makes me grateful for things, and P.A. gives me focus and a
sense of purpose in life.

~~~
perfectfire
It looks like Mutaflor isn't available outside Canada.

~~~
manmal
Or Europe, in my case (mainly in Germany.. it was actually prescribed to
Hitler, so long has it been around). The FDA banned it, I'm reading right now.
That sucks.

------
bjoveski
cache:

[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BycZQa...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BycZQaCJ5pkJ:https://thinkfaster.co/2016/10/one-
road-out-of-depression/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk)

------
at-fates-hands
My "road out" was pretty severe.

I had to move on from my social group who were not healthy (some of my closet
friends at the time), I stopped drinking and partying entirely, I started
working out, and started to plan out my goals for the next two years.

I completely closed ranks on my life - which was a major decision and started
from scratch again. Probably the hardest decision I've ever made. Two years of
being clinically depressed and I felt like I needed to jump start my life
again.

It wasn't easy, but in the long run it's been well worth it.

~~~
agumonkey
> I had to move on from my social group who were not healthy (some of my
> closet friends at the time), I stopped drinking and partying entirely, I
> started working out, and started to plan out my goals for the next two
> years.

I suppose you mean closest. Even though closet could explain depression too.

It's far from easy to express yourself [1] in your traditional circles when
the inner self distance is very large. I spent lots of years following the
average persons because I couldn't really accept my own desires.

[1] This comment has a lot of homosexual subtext, but it's only half pun, I
believe they're a good extrapolation for having to deal with lives they didn't
want but are force fed on them. Anybody who doesn't listen and accept himself
ends up in the same situation.

~~~
at-fates-hands
yeap one "s" can change the whole meaning right?

Thanks for the good laugh this afternoon.

------
usmeteora
It could be OCD, or it could be the downfall of most young men (many of whom
I'm friends with) when they leave tech companies in bay area to strike out on
their own: "for fame and fortune". Thats your problem.

You need to do it because you are passionate about the problem you are trying
to solve and genuinely interested in the work you do.

You were frustrated with the rest of your life because you were looking for it
to supplement your job, because you werent excited about it for the right
reasons.

It's not just a problem with you, so many high level VCs are sick and tired of
seeing really smart engineers come up with ideas that clutter the system with
another food delivery service or the "next facebook".

When you are aiming for fame and fortune, youre aiming to emulate people who
have already come up with original ideas, instead of focusing on your own
originality.

That's why the bay area is filled with so many "me too" ideas while the rest
of the world has multi billion dollar low hanging fruit begging to be worked
on. Because they exist in neighborhoods that arent cool or hip, that do not
resonate fame or fortune, when it is precisely when you leave the things you
are trying to emulate that you find what you are looking for.

~~~
wdewind
> the rest of the world has multi billion dollar low hanging fruit begging to
> be worked on

go on...

------
drzaiusapelord
My road out, even though its still rocky as my treatments are not perfect, is
getting checked for sleep apnea and getting treated for it. I wonder how many
depressed people have an undiagnosed sleep disorder. Its incredible what just
one or two nights of poor sleep quality can do to a person, let alone years.

------
jackhack
A resource for tech workers struggling with depression:

[https://forums.osmihelp.org/](https://forums.osmihelp.org/) (the former
DevPressed.com ) "We are a non-profit org (just applied for 501c3) that works
to improve mental wellness in the tech industry."

------
rapjs
Great article.

Currently fighting to claw out of my own depression.

~~~
adamc
From personal experience: I recommend considering both a psychiatrist
(medication) and a therapist (works on your thinking patterns. Both help a
lot. Depending on the depth of your depression, you might be able to get by
with just the therapist, but in my case, both help.

------
thisisforyou
This article: ([https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-squeaky-
wheel/20151...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-squeaky-
wheel/201510/the-important-difference-between-sadness-and-depression)) seems
relevant to the posted article, as well as some of the comments here.

------
pmoriarty
Nutrition for me has been a big one. I've only very gradually realised the
enormous impact my diet has had on my mood and cognition in general.

Sure, I've heard a million times before that a good diet, sleep[1], and
exercise[2] have a great impact on one's mood and brain function. And if I was
ever challenged on it, I would have said that I believed it. But I never
_acted_ like I believed in it, until I actually started to change and improve
each of these areas and felt the impact for myself.

So for anyone suffering depression (or other mental/cognitive issues), I
strongly recommend you take a very thorough and serious look at what you're
eating, and consider the possibility that you might be deficient in some
nutrients that are good for you or maybe getting too many that are bad for
you.

Nutritional advice is unfortunately all over the place, and it's very
difficult to find any kind of consensus on what's actually good and what's
bad. Fortunately, you can simply experiment on yourself, and try various
things that are widely regarded as "healthy" and see how they affect you (just
thoroughly do your research first and _be safe_!).

Doing this does take motivation, something very depressed people don't tend to
have much of. So in whatever way works for you, you have to first get
motivated enough to seriously want to make a change and do the hard work it
takes to get there. Perhaps that way is medication[3] or therapy[4]. Once you
have the real motivation to change, the really hard work begins.

In my case, all my life I had verious allergies which kept me from eating
certain foods which I later found out were really critical for brain function.
In addition, I was a really picky eater, and didn't like to eat a lot of food
which was good for me. That made it worse. Even worse yet, I didn't take my
diet seriously, and ate lots of things which I knew were bad for me and on top
of that didn't have a very varied diet.

All of that eventually caught up to me, and I suffered from a variety of
medical conditions which I'm discovering are diet-related. I'm slowly making
positive changes and am seeing impressive results. I'm still nowhere near
where I want to be with my mental and physical health. But both are improving
and I've finally gotten interested in diet and nutrition, investigating them,
and am taking them seriously.

Thanks to improvements in nutrition, my mood has improved a lot, I am more
motivated, and have a lot more energy than I used to. My physical health is
improving also. As I eat more nutritiously, I hope to see even more benefits
in the long run.

Some other tips which, I think, have saved my life over the years:

The most important one is the ability to gain perspective. A lot of depressed
people tend to get stuck in a sort of tunnel vision and magnify their problems
all out of proportion, thinking that theirs are the most important, only, and
worst problems in the world. I believe my study of philosophy, psychology,
religion, history, my experience in living abroad, and interest in the fate,
outlook and suffering of others has repeatedly helped me to realize that my
problems really aren't so bad when compared to those of a lot of other people
throughout the world and through history. Over and over again I've seen that
it can always be worse, and in many ways even in my worst and darkest days,
I'm very, very fortunate. At the same time I recognize that my pain is real,
and can be very severe. But it will end. This leads to the next point.

Over the decades of my life, I've had many run-ins with depression. When I was
young, it often felt like there was no light at the end of the tunnel, that
the depression would never end, and that there was no way out. But eventually
it did get better. This cycle has repeated many times for me now, but now I
have evidence from my own experience that it always gets better. Time does
heal all wounds. So now when I get depressed, I try to remind myself of that
and try to keep perspective. I try to just make it to the next day.

I've found that meditation helps. It can help with mental and physical pain,
and sometimes helps me to break out of of a cycle of feeling sorry for myself
and dwelling on the past. But at the same time, I don't believe it nor any of
the other techniques here are a complete answer, as they can be a way of
avoiding dealing with important issues, which should be dealt with in therapy.

Journaling helps. I've often felt a lot of relief by writing down what I've
been feeling or thinking -- things that I had a hard time admitting to others.
More recently, I've started using a portable voice recorder to just talk in to
about the things that are on my mind, and do so much faster and more freely
than I can write. That's helped a lot.

There was a time when I was in therapy that I kept a dream journal, and
analysed my dreams with the help of the therapist. I can definitely recommend
that as a way of gaining insight in to one's own mind.[5]

Talking with someone on a crisis hotline can help, but shouldn't be used as a
substitute for therapy.. more as an emergency measure. On the other hand, if
you're not in therapy and have no one to talk to, it can definitely be a lot
better than nothing.

Also, I try not to dwell on the past, and rather look to the future. I try to
learn the lessons that are there to learn from the past, and then move on.
Looking to the past with the aid of a therapist, however, can be very
constructive, and I consider that to be quite different and a lot better than
simply going in an endless loop over the same events in the past on your own,
without making progress and without learning anything. It's that latter,
unconstructive type of dwelling on the past that I try to avoid.

I try to be happy with myself, enjoy my own company, spend a lot of time
pursuing my own interests, and seeking out new ones. This helps to deal with
boredom, low self esteem, and loneliness, which have at times been major
contributing factors to my depression.

Helping others can be a great way to get out of your own problems, to
recognize how bad others have it, to feel solidarity with them, and to feel
positive about making a difference and being needed. I can definitely
recommend volunteering as a way to help oneself feel better in all sorts of
ways.

Finally, what's helped me a lot is to keep busy with something (like work
and/or hobbies). I don't think this is ultimately super constructive,
especially if you keep busy at the cost of introspection and really facing
your demons and dealing with aspects of your life you really have to deal
with. But it can very effectively keep depression at bay -- at least it has
done so repeatedly for me.. until I burn out and am forced to take a
reassessment of my life and deal with the issues I've been putting off. So I
only reluctantly mention it here. The best, I think, is to keep busy with
something that's really fulfilling and is really in line with your highest
ethics, goals, and motivations. I haven't found my way to that yet.

[1] - Sleep is super important, and I try to get as much as possible because I
instantly see the effect on my mood and my mind when I get little or bad
quality sleep for a long time. Getting enough sleep (ideally about 10 hours
for me) is very difficult when working in tech, at most jobs, and I see sleep
deprivation as one of the major downsides of working in this profession.

[2] - I've experienced great improvement in my mood when regularly doing
intensive exercise, like strength training and aerobic exercise.
Unfortunately, I've not able to make a long-term habit of it. It's worked for
me in the past, though, and I intend to get back in to it soon.

[3] - I generally see antidepressants as emotional bandaids -- they can
temporarily stop the bleeding, but won't treat the underlying illness. They
can also have some very serious side effects. One person I knew had their
emotions dulled permanently by antidepressants. Another underwent serious
negative personality changes while taking them. There have been many reports
of even more serious side effects, including worsening depression and suicide.

[4] - I'm a great believer in therapy. But there's no guarantee that any
particular therapy or therapist will work. It may be necessary to try a lot of
different ones until you find the one that works for you. Effective therapy
can also take a lot of motivation and commitment to do the hard work on your
part for the therapy to work. A lot of people think that therapy is like
having a tooth pulled -- you sit there and the doctor does all the hard work.
But that's not how it works. _You_ are the one that has to do the hard work.
The therapist just facilitates, guides, and helps you along the way.

[5] - Whether dreams have significance and what that significance is is
controversial. Some people think they are just random or meaningless, just
reflect what's happened in the day, or are just a way your mind has of
processing experience and reinforcing memories, but I think they have a deeper
meaning and are a way for the subconscious part of your mind to communicate
with the conscious part (a Jungian view). I could write another very long post
just on dreams, but I'll spare you. If you're interested, read up on the
Jungian view of dreams, and that's close to my view. Jungian therapy in
general is the type I prefer, though I have some problems with it -- in
particular, I'm not very big on all the myth stuff. But apart from that, I
find it to be the most insightful and beneficial type of therapy for me.

~~~
duopixel
cool to see a fellow ambiguous believer of dreams, here is my take on them
[https://medium.com/@duopixel/an-exploration-into-
dreams-5b8e...](https://medium.com/@duopixel/an-exploration-into-
dreams-5b8e9547f54#.4phzbjknm)

~~~
pmoriarty
That's a very interesting read, deserving of an HN thread all its own.

Some comments:

You might want to consider keeping track of the images and themes that come up
in your dreams, and cross-reference them. When I did so, it helped me to
recognize that my dreams have a sort of language that is spoken in symbols,
and understanding the meaning of those symbols can help reveal what a dream is
trying to communicate.

I believe that each person's dream symbols have meaning that is specific to
that individual, though sometimes there are commonalities between people and
even cultures. This is why I really hesitate to interpret anyone else's dream.
Just because one symbol might mean something to me, or even to a lot of people
doesn't mean it'll mean the same thing to the dreamer.

There are also ways of digging deeper in to the subconscious and fruitfully
looking deeper in to the dream than what might appear on the surface. One well
known technique is doing free association with anything and everything in the
dream.

For example, if someone in a dream was wearing a black hat, what does that
make you think of? Perhaps the first thing you think of is that the person in
question is a bad guy. What else does it make you think of? Perhaps you
recently saw someone wearing a black hat in waking life, or you know someone
who usually wears a black hat. Or maybe you associate it with the Black Hat
security conference, or with hackers, or with all of the above.

As you can imagine, every dream image or symbol has potentially infinite
meanings, and often very personal ones. Investigating them like this can yield
a lot of insight, and this can be done for every symbol in the dream. Even
better results can come if you index and cross-reference all of these symbols
and interpretations. Such record keeping can help you to remember that, for
instance, a black-hat wearing person that you dreamt of last night also
appeared in another dream a year ago, and studying those dreams together could
help you make further connections that you might not have immediately thought
of if you had not done this.

Another technique is having imaginal dialogues with or asking questions of the
people or even objects in your dreams. That can help to, in a way, pick up
dreaming where you left off, and to get more insight as to the role of
something in the dream. Some people might object that since the dialogue is
imagined it's not valuable. But, as Jung pointed out to a patient of his who
after a long time revealed that all the dreams she told him she never had and
simply made them up, they still come from the imagination and therefore are
just as valuable as "real" dreams in understanding one's subconscious. Anyway,
it's just another thing to try. Your mileage may vary.

Yet another technique is to imagine yourself in a situation from a dream
you've had, and imagining what you would do in that situation, and 'dreaming
it forward' as it were. Jung called this technique 'active imagination', and
stressed that he thought it was critical that the person doing this should try
to act in the imagination just as if he really were in the situation he
imagined. This technique can make you even more in touch with your
subconscious, especially if afterwards you analyze the imagined events just as
if they'd been a dream.

On another note, I don't think it's really clear where dream contents come
from. Some may say that it's obvious they come from one's self, and nothing
else. But even if they do, what is the self? Many people have very different
conceptions of the self. Some believe there is just the conscious self and
nothing else -- the ego, as it were. Some believe one's self is nothing but
the brain. Others believe there is a conscious and subconscious self. Some
believe in a 'higher self', or even in many selves, etc. Jung thought
archetypes were the sources of some dream contents, but he did not commit to
saying what the source of the archetypes were, even leaving open the
possibility that their sources were extra-personal (ie. outside the boundary
of what is normally considered to be a particular human body and mind) such as
gods or spirits -- one of the things that earned him the reputation for being
a mystic. I don't believe in anything in particular myself, but do find it
interesting to consider the possibilities, and generally find the simple
reductionist view that everything's just a matter of physics in the brain to
be unpalatable.

------
adamc
Just wanted to say thanks for this. Was feeling a little down, and this was
just the ray of light I needed.

------
stevens32
That sense of entitlement really makes it worse - the feeling that things
should be better for you but they aren't and it wasn't even your fault.

Rosebush Inside by Sean Hayes helped put things into perspective for me when I
was probably very lost.

------
ilikerashers
Great piece. Be happy on your own terms, not ycombinators and startup
marketing siren songs. The smartest among us are often the most vulnerable.

------
safini
I don't see any way out :(

~~~
akeck
But the way is still there. Email in profile, if you want to talk.

------
hackaflocka
When I was unhappy I was always unhappy (eventually). Whether it was by myself
or with other people. Smallco or Bigco.

IMHO, 5 things are essential. Everything else is secondary:

\- Sleep / resting the body-mind

\- Exercise / moving the body

\- Meditation / moving the mind

\- Nutrition / feeding the body-mind

\- Access to high quality internet on a high quality computer with a good
electricity network

~~~
elsurudo
I realize this is subjective to you, but one of these is not like the others,
as they say. Care to explain?

------
chenshuiluke
I honestly couldn't finish reading it because the article was so long-winded.

~~~
Jtsummers
For others:

It took me less than ten minutes to read, and is worth it if you want a well-
written, insightful article on both OCD and depression.

~~~
nzjrs
Really. I have suffered in my life, this didn't resonate with me at all.
Quoting Mr. Robot and Blink 182....

~~~
unknownzero
It's an article more or less about his personal experience with Depression and
OCD, on his personal blog, where he mentions several times angsty/sad songs
were his escape, especially in his teens. It seems silly to pick apart who he
quotes to me.

------
vocatan
Looks like we melted it -- or the server got depressed.

~~~
craftkiller
[https://twitter.com/sadserver](https://twitter.com/sadserver)

------
icantdrive55
My Psychiatrist has been telling me, for over two decades, "All my patients
are different."

It's one of his better stock answers to questions.

I have never been truely suicidial, but I had, I guess, a panic attack in my
twenties, and from the next day on I was a nervous emotional mess for years. I
tried to go back to a professional school I was in, but just crossing the
Richmond bridge was a feat in itself.

I knew my life would never be the same. Looking back--I'm not sure that was a
terrible thing?

I spent my savings(financial aid, and dirty money) on Therapy. I got
introduced to the right Psychiatrist--I think? (Yes--try to avoid drugs if you
can.)

It's ironic he brought up M. Scott Peck's Book. The Road Less Traveled. It was
required reading in a college speech class. Yea, I think the professor decided
to become a Healer? The book has a great first paragraph. Maybe the best I
have ever heard.

'Life is difficult--why not work hard in school, or work, and become someone
with a great life', or something along those lines. Then he goes into the
second half of the book, 'If you can't disprove the existence of a god, why
not embrace religion.'

I read the book, but I was trying my best in life. I was doing the hard work.
I was doing what they(society) told me to do. I was young, idealistic, and
wired pretty tight. I believed I could do anything, and up to my breakdown, I
could. I was one of the more capable persons everwhere I went.

Then I busted a gasket. And I was a trembling mess. I needed two 375 ml
bottles of wine, just to get through the door of a chitty/easy job. I was a
dizzy mess all day.

I've been in about a year of therapy, been on >10 drugs. Looked into four
Psychiatrists faces.

What worked? The more addictive drugs helped a bit. Exercise helped. I didn't
have a problem with a higher power, but that higher power didn't help me, even
on a Placebo level.

The biggest factor in my healing was time.

And yes--we don't have much time, but it's the only thing I can look back on
with confidence. I hear about people committing suicide, and I always think
they didn't give it enough time. And yes, sometimes it's years, but Everyone
is Different. It might be a few months until you don't feel like your in that
cloud of misery? It's usually just a few weeks though. Mine was unusual
according to a professional.

I have a theory, and it's just geared towards Americans, because I've never
been anywhere else.

It's this:

We are so conditioned to be great; we push ourselves too hard. We take on too
much stress in our twenties/thirties, and the brain which is basically
geared(evolutionary) to procreate, and eat--sometimes just breaks down, and we
get OCD, depression, anxiety, etc.

Most of you will be able to work towards having everything, but some of us
will break down.

I really don't have any advice, other than don't beat yourself up. Work, or to
school, but don't work youself sick. Don't try to have everything right out of
high school, or college.

It's just so hard to have everything in life. By the way, most people don't
have everything. Everyone I know is missing something. There's the person with
the great job, and can buy anything, but is all alone. And the reverse. We're
all kinda misserable.

My heart goes out to anyone in agony. Just please give it time.

~~~
jhanschoo
My experience parallels yours. I was wound pretty tight, tried to do way too
much, and burned myself out. For 2 years I was seeing a psych, and trying to
push myself to exercise, but the medications didn't work though I was still on
them; ultimately what happened was I slowly recovered my ability to function
with 2 years of doing nothing.

------
blahster23213
Well, I mean, it's too late for many. A lot of folks are only a few years away
from a heart attack and have nothing to live for.

You've let down everyone and your dreams haven't come true.

~~~
zodPod
Are you my mind?

------
kidager
[https://i.imgur.com/YJAiSyF.png](https://i.imgur.com/YJAiSyF.png)

~~~
yk
That's accidentally pretty bleak.

~~~
agumonkey
Might trigger a long walk in nature, which is one with the highest ROI to
alleviate depressive states.

~~~
chris_wot
For me, it's less a problem with the database and more a problem with the
connection.

Not to mention the fact that I am no longer able to seek professional help for
suicidal thoughts. Those, they come unbidden, and I will never be able to be
honest or open about it again.

------
dangraziano
This server error is making me a little emotional.

~~~
arthur2e5
Made an archive in case it fails again:
[https://archive.fo/Vyz09](https://archive.fo/Vyz09)
([https://archive.fo/20161108171830/https://thinkfaster.co/201...](https://archive.fo/20161108171830/https://thinkfaster.co/2016/10/one-
road-out-of-depression/))

P.S. Someone took a snapshot of that error 2 hours ago.

