
How U.S. Lost Out on iPhone Work - wallflower
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?_r=1&hp
======
Aloisius
Unless we want to turn a small part of America into a third-world country by
suspending worker's rights, environmental protections and safety regulations,
I don't think we could compete with these Asian countries.

I also don't think we should.

These jobs, well, suck. They are semi-skilled and are doomed to inevitable
automation. The people who work these jobs are treated as chattel right now.
When these people rise up and demand to be treated better forcing costs to
rise, these jobs will move again to some other desperate country.

If the first world wants to compete better, start certifying products as
(human & environment) cruelty free. Label how many children were used to
produce the product. Label how many years of life were robbed from people by
working on the product because of chemicals. Stick an import tax on any place
employing children or harming the global environment. Because straight
nationalism isn't going to cut it.

~~~
mudil
These are middle class jobs, not some sucky jobs. You are too comfortable
where you are, hence you don't see other people's plight.

Try to build a factory in the US. By the time all the environmental reviews
and other regulations are observed, and law suits from Sierra Club and others
are cleared, there is simply no way to build the factory! Hence no one builds
them, hence ...a current Apple executive said. “The U.S. has stopped producing
people with the skills we need.”

~~~
beachgeek
This is exactly right!

Its excessive regulations and crazy labor laws that stop people from building
factories in much of the US. I am mostly leftist on much of my view and I'm
sure people here will downvote me, but unions have screwed workers.

People in the US can continue saying these are sucky jobs etc, but every
Chinese person I've met who's worked at these factories has claimed they've
enjoyed the experience. Although the ones I met said they did it while putting
themselves through school etc.

~~~
UK-Al05
Did you miss the news about Chinese workers threatening mass suicide?

~~~
beachgeek
OK, what do you propose as the solution then?

If you read the article none of the executives quoted directly mention how
cheap Chinese labor is. They talk about how quickly they can "scale up or
down." There are only 2 countries where you can scale up your semi-skilled
work force rapidly, and the other country hasn't started ramping up for
manufacturing just yet.

Regarding your comment about suicide, China for various reasons has a rather
high suicide rate. Its not clear to me if the suicide rate amongst FoxConn
workers is just a symptom of their society or something really bad about
FoxConn itself.

~~~
Natsu
> OK, what do you propose as the solution then?

Keep pressure on them to improve. Not just Foxconn, which is getting singled
out (and will, most likely, end up being one of the _better_ ones due to
scrutiny after this blows over), but on all of the factories until they
reform.

Specifically, they appear to pay no attention at all to worker safety. You'd
think that after things like that horrible carcinogenic Sanlu milk, they would
be more interested in things like chemical safety, but I guess they're not
quite there yet.

While America is by no means perfect, they should copy us and have people
monitoring workplace injuries, require worker education on safety, require
appropriate protective gear for anyone doing dangerous things, and hold
companies responsible for the health & safety of their workforce. It's not
impossible to improve. I don't expect them to be perfect, but there are plenty
of things they could be doing which, according to the reports, they are not.

~~~
beachgeek
When the Chinese people have had enough, they'll demand change. Who are we to
force change down their throats?

In 2003 our President invaded a country that had nothing to do with the war on
terror. We didn't listen to anyone including our closest allies. Why would
China or anyone else give a shit about what we have to say now?

~~~
Natsu
> When the Chinese people have had enough, they'll demand change.

You mean like the group that threatened suicide? Or the outrage over that
Sanlu milk powder?

> In 2003 our President invaded a country that had nothing to do with the war
> on terror.

I don't know why you're comparing bad PR to starting a war. You appear to have
a very different idea of "pressure" than I do.

~~~
beachgeek
>> When the Chinese people have had enough, they'll demand change.

> You mean like the group that threatened suicide? Or the outrage over that
> Sanlu milk powder?

Like I said, when it gets too much, they'll demand and get change. Its not our
problem.

>> In 2003 our President invaded a country that had nothing to do with the war
on terror.

> I don't know why you're comparing bad PR to starting a war. You appear to
> have a very different idea of "pressure" than I do.

My point is we don't have a lot of moral authority anymore. Everyone remembers
that we started a war under false pretenses. And that we killed 100s of
thousands of Iraqis in the process of bringing them "democracy". Our own jihad
for democracy.

It isn't just bad PR. You said we should "pressure" China to force their
factories to provide better working conditions. Why should they?

Or were you implying that we should invade China as well? Is that your idea of
"pressure"?

~~~
Natsu
The "pressure" I'm talking about is the existing bad PR. That is, what's
happening right now. And it _is_ getting results, because Apple itself is
auditing its suppliers.

I most certainly do _not_ advocate starting any wars. I'm not even talking
about government pressure. Frankly, the economic pressure from Apple, which
doesn't want to take crap for factory conditions in China, may do more good
than anything the US government is likely to try.

~~~
beachgeek
OK. Economic pressure is something I can agree with. If you don't like it,
don't buy it.

The rest of the world (and those of us who deal with it) begs you not to start
any more wars.

~~~
Natsu
> The rest of the world (and those of us who deal with it) begs you not to
> start any more wars.

I didn't really have any planned, you know. I mean, I don't even have a lair
in a volcano on a skull-shaped island yet! You can't seriously expect me to go
around and start wars without one. It simply isn't done.

But seriously, I think that bad PR for image-conscious companies with
factories that have substandard working conditions is a good way to leverage
economic pressure. Because their brands have value to them, they'll try to
restore them by putting pressure on their suppliers to clean up their acts and
hopefully that will lead to reforms by driving competition. None of which
involves wars or even government intervention, though it might take a bit of
investigative journalism.

~~~
beachgeek
Hahaha. Very funny man. LOLCATZ, Cheezburger Catz!

You know I meant "United States" when I said "please don't start another war".

We have a big difference in the way we think. I think if someone CHOOSES to
work in a factory under semi-inhumane conditions so their children can have
better lives, they are fucking heroes.

You think they are victims. Your Western brothers (including the clown who got
his post deleted) think they are somehow less than them.

Whatever. Lets check back in 20 years,

------
sjtgraham
"A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company’s dormitories,
according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of
tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift
fitting glass screens into beveled frames."

Is anyone else disgusted by this? Waking employees during their rest period,
not to mention it being after midnight. These poor workers are essentially
slaves in all but name. It's quite unconscionable that Apple should make
$400,000 profit/employee while the aforementioned is happening.

~~~
jerrya
It's not so much the midnight wakeup and the rush to accomplish some necessary
goal. In the right circumstances, that's actually kind of neat.

But we do have to understand, these employees live their lives in _company
dormitories_ , and for this above and beyond effort, are not paid in overtime,
but with a biscuit.

Apple (and others) are arbitraging the more humane and worthwhile labor
arrangements our parents (and their parents) literally fought for, and died
for, to make our working lives much better.

It actually is, pretty despicable, not that foreign workers are given a chance
to better their lives, but that the Apple's (and others) decisions work not to
raise everyone up, but to bring us all down to a minimal level.

I think all of us are eager to see living and wage conditions rise all around
the world. It is the race to the bottom that is disturbing.

~~~
reuven
If China were to improve its records on the environment, worker rights, and
human rights, it sounds (from the article) as if they would still have an
advantage in manufacturing that would be pretty hard to overcome by another
country.

But I would certainly feel a lot better, and would even be willing to pay a
bit more for my products, knowing that the government did indeed enforce
similar regulations to what we see in Western countries.

Ironically, the Chinese government, which is still ruled by the "Communist"
party, is demonstrating the worst aspects of capitalism -- namely, that profit
trumps all other considerations.

~~~
csomar
Nah. That's the price you pay to make Apple move their factories from the US
to China. If not, Apple will make their plants in the US.

As some has mentioned, it's the price you pay for growth when you are poor. I
have been there, and done that. Still not rich, but situation improved. I
couldn't do it otherwise, and I'm happy I did it and moved forward.

------
jobeirne
The untrained eye sees jobs being taken away from Americans. The economist
sees value being passed on to American citizens in the form of a price
reduction of Apple products, and healthy acknowledgement of the reality that
the American workforce is no longer suited to produce computer hardware
efficiently.

Jobs are not a sign of prosperity; we don't go to work just to go to work. If
that were the case, we'd mandate that people must farm with spoons.

~~~
reuven
The article and video don't seem to be arguing that it's bad to lower costs.
They aren't even saying that it's inherently bad to outsource some of these
functions to China and other countries.

Rather, there seem to be two points:

(1) Ignoring the cost of labor (which everyone thinks is the reason that US
companies outsource to China), it's still logical to send manufacturing to
China. Their plants, labor force, and supply chains are all better suited to
the needs of high-tech manufacturing than anywhere in the US.

(2) Moving all of these manufacturing jobs to China (or elsewhere) has not
only meant the loss of many mid-skill manufacturing jobs in the US, but also
many jobs that were created to support those jobs, to a degree that the
service sector doesn't even come close to reaching. This has long-term
ramifications for US jobs, in that many of the traditional middle-class jobs
that people used to be able to get no longer exist.

It certainly sounds to me as though the US should not expect to get any of
these manufacturing jobs back. It also seems unlikely that you can train an
entire country to do white-collar, high-tech and service-sector jobs. And
while I know that the US continues to do a huge amount of manufacturing, it's
with many fewer (and more highly-skilled) employees than ever before.

So, what's an economy to do? It's easy for me to tell my own children to study
hard and to try to get good jobs, but that's not scalable, nor is it
realistic. Maybe when everyone can manufacture things at home, using 3D
printers, then manufacturing will be as flexible and portable as software
startups nowadays. But barring that, the solution is far from clear to me.

~~~
jobeirne
As goods are produced more efficiently, they become less expensive to purchase
for the consumer. As efficiency increases, then, workers have to work less.

The amount that Americans have worked per week has dropped almost
monotonically (<http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/whaples.work.hours.us>)
since the mid eighteen-hundreds. The end goal is that we all don't have to
work so much; maybe some of us not at all.

In short, an economy should pursue the most efficient strategy for
manufacturing and delivering goods, and that happens (mostly) through the
price system.

------
philwelch
_“The entire supply chain is in China now,” said another former high-ranking
Apple executive. “You need a thousand rubber gaskets? That’s the factory next
door. You need a million screws? That factory is a block away. You need that
screw made a little bit different? It will take three hours.”_

The rationale for doing a startup in Silicon Valley is that everything you
need is right there in Silicon Valley with you. Apparently, parts of China are
turning into the Silicon Valley of manufacturing.

~~~
Daishiman
This is probably the most insightful comment in the thread. Beyond the working
conditions, which add a significant cost advantage, the integration and
proximity of factories is a massive benefit which is very costly to replicate.

~~~
georgemcbay
Massive economic benefit, yes, but also a massive ecological disaster, as
anyone who has experienced the smog around manufacturing centers in China
could tell you just by seeing the impact with the naked eye (and feeling it in
their reduced-capacity lungs).

China's version of the CDC is currently advising people in Beijing to stay
indoors because the smog is so bad.

~~~
giardini
"...a massive ecological disaster..."

Indeed, but it will take much more to change China's ways. Until pollution
becomes a risk to human life that takes an obviously shocking immediate toll
the Chinese will not do anything about their pollution. Even then, given their
huge population, problems are more likely to be swept under the rug (employees
sent home to die, etc.).

So change due to environmental concerns is a long way off.

------
swombat
What _I_ take out from this article is that a company like Apple creates work
for some 763 thousand people worldwide.

That's mind-blowing. 763 thousand people working together to produce my
macbook pro, my iPhone, my iPad. 763 thousand people earning a living because
of Apple. Seven hundred and sixty three thousand.

My business currently employs 3 people full time, including 2 founders. We're
looking to hire some more in the next year, but we have a long way to go.

------
polshaw
Most people seem to be focusing narrowly on wages and worker conditions, which
is not the main point of the article-- even if you take wages out of the
equation, China is now much better positioned for production. The whole supply
chain is nearby-- vast majority of high-tech electronics are made in asia
(Taiwan, Japan, Malaysia etc), everything else in China itself. To make even
one component in the US would require shipping it to China for assembly, which
would introduce a lead time of weeks, whilst still costing more. There is a
lack of mid-level (degree > x> HS) skilled workers (engineers) in the US, many
in China. These are bigger problems for US manufacturing than the costs alone
(labour costs aren't a huge portion of most manufacturing).

~~~
bugsbunnyak
The Atlantic has an interesting take on this, quite in line with your point
about mid-level skills:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/01/making-i...](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/01/making-
it-in-america/8844/)

the take-away is that American companies can be, and are, very competitive in
some areas of manufacturing thanks to automation. But automation requires a
relatively small number of these high- and mid-skilled workers to design
things and operate machines. the layer below them - when, for various reasons,
they are even still employed in the US - doesn't earn enough to make middle-
class (they earn 10x Chinese workers, but that's not enough for a home even in
low cost areas such as S. Carolina).

------
theoj
How many of you would like to work in dormitories at your employer, be called
up to start a 12 hour shift within a moment's notice be given nothing but one
biscuit and a cup of tea to last you through that shift? Maybe you'll do it
for your own startup, but I don't think any of you would do it for an
employer.

The reason why Apple manufactures in China is because workers have no rights
-- and with that comes unmatched labor flexibility and rock bottom prices too.

It's not US competitiveness that is the issue here -- it's China's lack of
human rights.

~~~
teyc
I've worked on a remote mine site in Australia before. Single workers are
housed in dorms built by the employers. These have cooks and cleaners. We have
regular hours, but if there were to be some urgent work, we would be expected
to get our act together and get things done. (The only point of difference is
we get paid overtime).

------
vectorpush
I'm not so sure we should even aspire to train our future workforce for these
jobs. Robotic workers are slated to supplant some of the most complex
manufacturing tasks currently executed by humans. By the time our
manufacturing force is primed to take on these jobs, we may find that they no
longer exist.

As a side note, I think it's interesting that at a time when Americans are
clamoring for more employment, they are simultaneously emptying their wallets
for iPhones in record numbers. Somehow, despite the ailing economy, Americans
can find it in their hearts to lift poor Chinese workers out of poverty.

~~~
ww520
But robots are not good enough (way worse than human) to adopt to new jobs. It
takes lots of time to reconfigured or reprogram robots to do new jobs. Human
are very good at adopting and reconfiguring to new environment and new
challenge.

It will take a long time for robots to get to that level.

------
learc83
Why worry about Chinese workers making iPhones, eventually robots will be
making them anyway.

In addition most of the value of an iPhone is in the design and marketing,
which is primarily done in the U.S.

~~~
potatolicious
Most of the _perceived_ value of an iPhone is in the design and marketing.

But surely the _employment_ value of an iPhone is still largely in the
manufacturing. How many employees at Apple do you think is directly involved
in the design and marketing of it?

Versus the number of Foxconn employees building it?

~~~
_delirium
I think he meant a third thing, the _monetary_ value. Of every $500 you pay
for an iPhone, only $180 goes to China for manufacturing.

~~~
sylvinus
Actually much, much less than $180: that includes the cost of all the parts,
many of which are not produced in China.

------
teyc
Vote me down if you want.

I don't know why you see is workers living in dorms as being disgusting.

You have to compare these people against waiters who only make money when
customers tipped enough, or stitched together two or three jobs back to back.
These people have no leverage against small business owners. FoxConn workers
may threaten suicide, the waiters in the US knows that suicide is not going to
make an iota of difference to the bosses.

At FoxConn, workers earn enough to have money left over for savings. Can you
honestly say that for the minimum wage hourlies you see everyday but care to
ignore?

The fact is - as reported - even if the Apple or Corning wished to build the
factories in the US, the center of gravity of manufacturing has moved to Asia.
It is very difficult to shift. Structurally, the manufacturing world has
changed. It is very the same reason why other countries struggle to reproduce
Silicon Valley elsewhere, or build a new financial center outside of New York.

~~~
rdl
I've worked at a lot of jobs where people have on-site company-provided
housing; it's common in defense, oil and gas, mining, etc. in remote areas.

Depending on how it's done, I have no problem with it. It's definitely better
if you're a high-paid worker than someone who might end up borrowing from a
company, doing the company store thing, etc. which caused so many problems
with labor in the past.

In a lot of cases, the housing is contracted out to specialist "man camp"
providers, who run the entire facility and charge a per-resident rent to the
employers. This probably removes a lot of the perverse incentives.

It's a great way to save on housing, commute, etc. if you're single/don't have
a family. A lot of older people would maintain a home elsewhere and then do 2
weeks on, 2 weeks off type shifts, which doesn't save as much money, but does
make work a lot more efficient.

Corporate apartments, dorms, etc. wouldn't be unreasonable for someone doing a
startup or tech company in a place where rentals are inefficient -- it's
pretty easy to rent an apartment and have some roommates in silicon valley,
but if you were doing a startup in a rural/suburban place where people usually
bought vs. rented, maybe the company should work something out for them.

~~~
teyc
+1

I lived in a company-provided mining quarters for a few years. I see no
problems with dorms at all. A lot of readers tend to think about slavery
because it makes them feel better about America but the reality is that
structurally US could no longer execute this way. In particular, the old
issues of class warfare that drives union rules as well as management
techniques are outmoded and calls for some fresh thinking.

------
Natsu
It's odd for them to go back and forth between claiming that the US lacks the
skills required and talking about a Chinese iPhone factory where thousands of
workers hand assemble components during a 12-hour shift they suddenly started
at midnight. The average factory job is not rocket science and the average
factory worker learns what they're supposed to do on the job.

~~~
dmethvin
The problem is the ecosystem. Those low-paying slavish jobs support the next
layer of skilled middle-class engineers and infrastructure. If there is no
manufacturing in the USA there is no need for manufacturing process engineers.
As the article said, even material suppliers like Corning have to locate their
manufacturing nearby to be responsive to orders and save money on shipping
costs.

~~~
Natsu
Right, but it all boils down to having an army of cheap workers in the end.
That feeds everything else, because we still don't have manufacturing robots
that are as adaptable as humans for cases where you would have to retool your
whole line on the fly.

------
ivanzhao
The video in the article is a very good summary.

[http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/20/business/the-i...](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/20/business/the-
iphone-economy.html?ref=business)

~~~
jerrya
That is a terrific video, but the accompanying soundtrack and all the shh shh
of the images sliding in, wow, horrible.

Good content "ruined" by someone getting excited with the canned sound
buttons.

------
joejohnson
The part about Eric Saragoza (the guy who worked for Apple in Elk Grove 10
years ago) was interesting. He was at a level of education that could have
given him opportunities to work his way into middle class maybe 20-30 years
ago. But why did he have 5 children? This may seem harsh, but that seems like
a foolish decision. Why would he decide to support 5 more people?

~~~
ams6110
Well having children is just about the most fundamental thing we are driven to
do besides keeping ourselves alive. Additionally he probably felt he had a
good job with a good company and that things would work out.

------
kia
There is an excellent book "Poorly Made in China: An Insider's Account of the
China Production Game" by Paul Midler [1] for those who want to know more
about behind-the-scenes of China's manufacturing.

[1] - [http://www.amazon.com/Poorly-Made-China-Insiders-
Production/...](http://www.amazon.com/Poorly-Made-China-Insiders-
Production/dp/0470928077)

------
splrb
How awesome! The key to success in device manufacturing is: 1) treat your
employees like animals (or worse) 2) get the host government to subsidize the
endeavor under threat that you'll move your business to a more accommodating
country and 3) have a deep disdain for the responsibility of corporations to
do anything but make as much money as possible.

Apple is certainly not the only company that does this but they've certainly
made a fine art of it. This is simply grotesque. Society created corporations
(though there appears to be some debate about this) because it was thought
that limited liability would make us better off, you know - more, better
stuff. Corporations clearly feel that they have some inalienable rights and
those include screwing the societies that enabled them if it means making
another buck. This is vile and sociopathic.

If a corporation does not serve the best interests of the society that enables
it, that corporation should be terminated.

------
tristan_juricek
> Many more people work for Apple’s contractors: an additional 700,000 people
> engineer, build and assemble iPads, iPhones and Apple’s other products.

I wonder, if Apple attempted to work most of those jobs in a western system,
how many total jobs would there be? I'd have to think less.

As bad as this may seem, I see this sort of globalization as a good thing,
because the total overall number of jobs is probably higher. (A job, meaning a
steady paycheck, and not rural poverty.)

I might have read this too recently, which might be clouding my judgement:
<http://gmj.gallup.com/content/149144/coming-jobs-war.aspx>

In the end, more jobs = fewer serious problems. I'd have to think, though,
that you'd need to take care that you don't _lose_ job counts. Western
countries probably need to worry about that a bit more. I don't see how it can
be done without more education and training.

------
pwg
Link to the single page version, for those who don't want to read an article
chopped up into seven parts:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-
and...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-
squeezed-middle-class.html?_r=2&hp=&pagewanted=all)

------
jobeirne
FTA: "However, what has vexed Mr. Obama as well as _economists_ and policy
makers is that Apple — and many of its high-technology peers — are not nearly
as avid in creating American jobs as other famous companies were in their
heydays."

Economists? Only economists who either don't understand basic principles like
division of labor (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_labour>) and
comparative advantage (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage>),
or are willing to neglect them in return for being on some protectionist
politician's payroll.

------
tlogan
The plant sophistication there in China is staggering: workers are not treated
well, but the factories, infrastructure, and processes are state of the art.

Now, I know I might downvoted (because this is quite touchy subject) but I do
want ask this question:

If US does not have sophistication, talent, and infrastructure to make
production of iPhone, then how US armed forces can maintain its world's
dominance?

This is in relationship to the story about drone begin hacked and down in
Iran: it seems to me that US armed forces probably do not even know what they
don't know.

~~~
encoderer
Actually, the defense industry sort of proves that we DO have the ability to
manufacture myriad high tech devices.

But the analogy fails because the defense department doesn't have to concern
itself with profit margins.

~~~
tlogan
That is interesting point of view - and refreshingly optimistic.

So as China become more expensive (that is given), these jobs will come back.

~~~
_Y_
I don't they are so much coming back, as they are probably moving to some
other country (e.g. India).

~~~
matwood
India is already getting too expensive. The Philippines is the hot place now,
but wages are rising quickly there also. Companies could start to look to
Africa, but the corruption and lack of a government in many of the countries
makes that a tough move.

What will happen is as wages rise more and more work will simply be automated.
Factories will be built where they most geographically make sense (close to
components, raw materials, customers, etc...)

Expect to see mini silicon valleys of manufacturing pop up much like what
happened in Detroit with automakers and part suppliers during the hey day.

Also, saying they _aren't coming back_ is ignoring that they never really
left. US manufacturing is still growing strong, and the main reason long term
for more new factories to not be built in the US will have to do with the EPA
more than labor wages.

------
sinkercat
Why doesn't Apple assemble iPhones here in the USA? It's all in the economics.
Cheap skilled labor, fast and easy access to components, unregulated work
conditions - none of this is possible in the USA.

A long article that does little to provide any insight into how we can solve
this problem.

~~~
brador
Would unions come into the equation?

~~~
grantheaslip
Sure, ununionized labour would be more employable, but these would be lower-
class jobs, not the middle-class jobs that the west of today was built on.
Nobody’s going to be able to support a family at middle-class standards on
$10-15 an hour.

For some reason, the broader socioeconomic discussion the western world should
be having has been condensed to creating jobs. But jobs aren’t a binary thing;
and they’re means to an end, not the end goal (an equitable society in which
the average person can be a member of the middle class).

~~~
count
Um, 'middle class' is squarely in the $10-15/hr range in the US today. That's
about $25-30k per parent, with 2 working parents. That's 'average' in most of
the US.

~~~
grantheaslip
I’m not in the position of supporting a family, but is that _really_ enough to
support a mortgage, car(s), daycare (if we’re assuming both parents are
working), putting kids though university, buying supplementary insurance, etc?

I get the sense that “average” is no longer middle class unless you really
loosen the definition of middle class.

------
jeffool
US manufacturing output has never been higher; the US is not losing
manufacturing capabilities. We're losing jobs. We're hiring fewer people and
making more product value than ever before.

------
binarysolo
It's a complicated problem.

Essentially, employee wages and production control (by compelling arduous
hours upon workers) wins out en masse. The free market system is what it is,
and this is what it leads to. Jobs will go to whoever can do them cheaper,
better, faster. I don't know much about "better", but cheaper and faster is
definitely an advantage to the Chinese people.

To be fair though, if we honestly believe that everyone's life is of equal
value, then should the work not go to those who need it most? Those who live
in countries where a factory job is the height of what they can hope to
achieve? It's our obligation, as those who have the opportunity, to pursue the
jobs that aren't available to the world's starving people.

Off the top of my head, around 500k-1M people are now involved in developing
phone applications. This is a whole industry that did not exist 5 years ago.
American economists would rejoice that as a nation, the US is getting involved
in higher value proposition jobs at the expense of losing commoditized, low-
barrier-of-entry work. Of course, the measurement of human suffering to by
those who cannot or will not transition gets lost in the shuffle.

------
nsxwolf
Why shouldn't Chinese people have jobs?

------
protomyth
I always assumed that the job trend would work its way back to the US when
automation trumped the masses in factory labor. The problem I see is that we
are not doing enough to get ourselves ready for the next generation. Our
school systems have been stripped down and do not have enough of the sciences
or vocational studies that would allow people to get interested in
engineering.

~~~
axylone
With automation, many of the jobs won't come back with the factory. There will
be a few highly-technical positions for the engineers that set up the plant
and keep it running, but for the most part it's like building a datacenter as
mentioned in the article - $500 million for ~100 jobs.

~~~
protomyth
repair and maintenance jobs are better than what is currently here

------
yonasb
“We don’t have an obligation to solve America’s problems. Our only obligation
is making the best product possible.” <\-- agreed

------
jhuckestein
The jobs aren't coming back. That doesn't mean manufacturing won't come back.

Fully automated production in the US seems more viable than manual labor in
the US. Perhaps it will be more viable than manual labor in other countries as
well.

I'd be curious to hear from anyone who has experience in this area if that is
likely?

------
asdkl234890
_New screens began arriving at the plant near midnight._

 _A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company’s dormitories,
according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of
tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift
fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was
producing over 10,000 iPhones a day._

OK, that is not flexibility and manufacturing know how. That is too much power
in the in the hands of the job providers.

As jobs continue to grow eventually even China will start to go short on
workers and then things will start to change.

------
flipside
If you go to the nyt home page, you can watch the video for free. Just click
the link then the logo.

The video made a very good, straight forward argument, highly recommend
watching.

------
Raphael
It's simple to bring manufacturing back to the USA. Impose tariffs on imports,
thus making local products competitive in price.

~~~
philwelch
But then other countries will impose tariffs on US exports, thus reducing
demand for US-made products. And since there are more of them than us, it'll
hurt us in the long run. For instance, Airbus, over in the free-trade EU, will
probably poach all the airplane orders that Boeing could have filled.

------
zerostar07
Well it seems anything having to do with manufacturing moves to China. How
long before software engineering moves there too?

~~~
philwelch
If you're building glass, or gaskets, or tiny screws, or LCDs, you want your
factory to be in China next to the iPhone factory so the parts can arrive as
quickly as possible. If you're building iOS, you can just upload it to the
factory from California with comparable delay.

~~~
jeffool
Until your manager decides three other programmers from China or India could
output a larger quantity of serviceable code for half your wage. And the drop
in cost nets him a bonus from his bosses. Until they offshore him, and only
need translators to run their company.

~~~
zerostar07
Yes this is what I m talking about. Eastern Europe is also a target

------
kingkawn
The brief mention in the beginning of the article about Chinese government
subsidies allowing the Chinese manufacturers to offer better pricing options
than even their cheap labor force should allow is the key to their success.
The government is taking an active interest in promoting this industry.

------
Vivtek
So what I read here is that because Americans desire more normal lives than
having to get up at midnight with a pastry and coffee to meet a last-minute
design decision, that work _should_ not be in America.

Quintessential Jobs, if you ask me. And not the way a world economy should be
run.

------
MaysonL
_The consumer electronics business has become an Asian business._

And of course, when people in the '70s and '80s complained about Asian
companies dumping TVs and memory chips in the US, they were denounced as anti-
free-trade. And this is the result.

------
guelo
One way to think about it is that we shipped a lot of our pollution over to
China also.

------
droithomme
I don't agree with Jobs comment (to Obama, as quoted in the article) that the
Chinese build higher quality products. The recent Apple products I have owned
all start having hardware failures after the first year, and are completely
broken down within 3 years. Japanese and Taiwanese laptops I have bought,
which have similar hardware and similar price, simply do not have the same
quality control problems, nor did the older Apple products I owned that were
made in California.

It's entirely an issue that Apple can make more profit per product by making
low quality computers built by virtual slave labor in China with no enforced
environmental laws. This works for them because they have managed their brand
well, particularly with Ives lovely case designs. Certainly not because the
electronics and quality is better, it just isn't.

------
wmblaettler
"The facility’s central kitchen cooks an average of three tons of pork and 13
tons of rice a day." The massive scale of Foxconn really hit me when I read
the amount of food served is measured in TONS per day.

------
lizzard
I wish it were reasonable to suggest that a company perhaps NOT set it sights
on maximizing its profits at the expense of all else about society's
infrastructure.

------
stonemetal
_“Companies once felt an obligation to support American workers, even when it
wasn’t the best financial choice,” said Betsey Stevenson, the chief economist
at the Labor Department until last September. “That’s disappeared. Profits and
efficiency have trumped generosity.”Companies and other economists say that
notion is naïve._

Anyone find the Apple position to be the naive one. You can't sell luxury
goods to peasants. Every employee at crap wages is one less potential
customer.

------
MichaelApproved
If you're going to post a story with a pay wall/login wall, please also post
the TL;DR.

~~~
wallflower
tldr

When President Obama asked Steve Jobs why iPhones can't be made in America, he
replied: "Those Jobs aren't coming back."

Companies no longer feel an obligation to support American's workers. Apple
feels that to design one of their products with the highest quality - that it
has to be manufactured in China. There is no other place in the world that can
scale up (millions in weeks) while maintaining a very healthy profit margin.
The fact of the matter is that the supply chain for high-end and low-end
electronics does not touch America in a significant way - it is mostly in
Europe and Asia. Even Corning's much touted Gorilla Glass is manufactured in
new factories in Asia because that is where the action is.

Even though once Apple marketed about being made in America, that is no longer
the reality.

In America, you cannot wake up workers for an emergency production shift at
midnight. In China, that is business as usual.

As the pace of innovation quickens (five iPhones in four years), American
businesses must rely more on China to compete globally.

~~~
Natsu
> In America, you cannot wake up workers for an emergency production shift at
> midnight.

This part is not completely true.

There are no workers in dorms that you can just round up, no. But a supervisor
can call up a bunch of people and tell them to report in, or they can ask
people to stay for another shift after their first one finishes.

It is by no means impossible for people to work 18 hour shifts in America.

~~~
caffeine5150
It's close enough to true, though, in the context of manufacturing. Extended
shifts at overtime rates are not cost effective. And there are no good
alternatives. I ran a manufacturing company (granted in California, a very
employee friendly state) where everyone wanted to run 4 days of 10 hour
shifts, called the 'alternative work week', instead of the usual 5 - 8 hour
days. There is a regulatory means for doing this without it resulting in
overtime pay. The problem is, the regulations are onerous and full of
potential pitfalls and the consequence of screwing it up is that an employee
sues 2 years later and all those 2 hours logged over the usual 8 hour max are
retroactively deemed overtime and must be paid to the employees. So even
though everyone wanted to put in an extra 2 hours each day to get the fifth
day off, we couldn't do it because of the risk. In other words, it's not
always just about what people are willing to do.

~~~
Natsu
We don't have that in Arizona. They can work the guys 40 hours in two days and
not have to pay overtime (they've come rather close to doing this). Also, only
working hours count towards the 40: vacation does _not_. Work through
Thanksgiving? Well, that just sucks. Like you say, CA is a lot more employee
friendly.

That said, you're right that they avoid OT like the plague. That's what made
me speculate that they were already running at maximum capacity and had to do
something to boost that for a while. But yeah, it does happen. I've been there
to support an 18 hour shift. Not fun.

------
wr1472
Wow! This article is a trending tweet here in the UK.

------
shareme
The article misses a broad obvious point..

The entry level workers for those factories in China are not what would fund
Middle class.

Its the workers who design and fabricate the factory automation equipment..ie
Japan's Middle class..

The article author needs to get a clue.

------
mjwalshe
I hardly think fitting phone glass on a production line is a "mid level" skill

------
mudil
The focus on 12 hour shifts and dorms in China is all dandy, but what does it
take to build a factory in the US?

By the time all the environmental reviews and other regulations are observed,
and law suits from Sierra Club and others are cleared, there is simply no way
to build the factory! Hence no one builds them, hence ...a current Apple
executive said. “The U.S. has stopped producing people with the skills we
need.”

~~~
_delirium
Factories get built in the U.S. all the time. Since there is some amount of
competition for them between states, the typical approach is to shop around
for a nice deal, where the state/city will usually not only offer to shepherd
you through the environmental/approval process, but actually pay for it or
subsidize your construction, and give you 10-20 years of tax breaks. Happens
with car factories all the time. Even Apple is doing it with the A5 chip
manufacturing facility it announced it's going to open in Austin.

