
Paris Mayor: It's Time for a '15-Minute City' - jelliclesfarm
https://www.citylab.com/environment/2020/02/paris-election-anne-hidalgo-city-planning-walks-stores-parks/606325/
======
pi-err
I live in Paris and whatever you think of the current mayor, this is pure
marketing babble for the elections next month.

Paris has always had this very dense city core where 99% of daily life is
5-10’ away. It’s a great concept for dense metropoles, but it only works
because the city is so small: 100 square kilometers in an ocean of much lesser
density. 80% of “Greater Parisians” live outside Paris itself.

Unfortunately there is no actual representations for 80% of those “outside
Parisians” since they are split between hundreds of small cities with
individual political dynamics. Pure game theory as local governance.

~~~
jackjeff
What is considered to be Paris (100km2) is a lot smaller than what people
consider to be London (1500km2) or NYC (800km2 of land).

Yes. If you’re rich enough and can afford to live in Paris everything is about
15mins away.

If you leave “outside” then be ready for commutes that get proportionally
cheaper as travel distance increase. A commute time of one hour or less is
considered good. It’s not rare for people to commute for 2 hours or more, for
each trip.

The problem is that the mayor of Paris is elected to represent the wishes of
the privileged few that live in the center and cares little about commuters.

The anti-car attitude of the current Mayor (Mrs Hidalgo) reflects this. And if
you look carefully at the data it looks like air pollution has reduced in
areas where cars were removed but has increased elsewhere. It’s hardly a win
for air pollution, but if you live in Paris the river side is now for
pedestrians and not cars. So yeah. Real nice, if you can afford to live there.

~~~
oska
> And if you look carefully at the data it looks like air pollution has
> reduced in areas where cars were removed but has increased elsewhere.

Are you trying to imply some sort of causation here? Because I can't see how
decreasing car use in the city centre would increase usage outside it.

> It’s hardly a win for air pollution

Decreasing the use of (internal combustion) cars in city centres is a huge win
for air pollution as that is generally where traffic is most concentrated and
thus air pollution levels are highest.

~~~
jackjeff
Car use in Paris has just shifted around. For it to disappear people would
need credible alternatives. Remember most Parisians don’t have a cars and have
fantastic public transport. It’s workers and commuters from far away that need
vehicles.

Basically the river side used to be like a highway where you could travel from
West to East and vice versa. This is essentially gone now. But all the traffic
has moved more inland. So the pollution has reduced near the river, but
increases on the East/West boulevards. It’s possible that traffic overall may
have decreased, but the boulevards are full of intersection and traffic
lights, whereas the river side highway was basically devoid of them. So
overall for pollution, it’s really hard to see a win.

~~~
oska
Paris' greatest asset is its river, the Seine. Devoting a section of one of
its two banks to a car highway is simply insane. If the city wants good
uninterrupted travel East-West to replace that riverside highway it should
build a tunnel.

~~~
jackjeff
It's obviously great if you live in Paris, especially when the weather is
good. I have hanged out there many times in the summer even though I don't
live in Paris anymore.

But if you're one of these commuters who has to drive, and use that specific
east/west route, then it's an every day annoyance. You're reminded at every
traffic light that your commute has increased by X minutes.

I think the solution is obviously to improve the public transport situation
especially for far-away suburbs. But it's hard. It costs a lot, there are
political animosities at play, and fundamentally Paris citizens do not really
suffer from car commute issues since they don't need cars.

------
ThePhysicist
That's essentially the concept of many cities in Europe. I live in Berlin for
example and I have almost everything I need within 10 minutes of walking or 5
minutes of cycling: Supermarkets, pharmacies, doctors, restaurants,
electronics stores, schools, kindergardens, ... The downside is that you tend
to become used to your small microcosm ("Kiez" we call it) and rarely leave
it. I can't recall for example when I went to East Berlin the last time, as
distances can still be large and it can take one hour in public transit to go
from East to West, depending of course where you want to go.

I also lived in Paris for more than 3 years and it also has great walkability,
more so than Berlin even because the city center is much more compact (you can
cross it by bike from North to south in 30-40 minutes I'd say). The metro is
also super efficient, you can get everywhere "intra muros" in 30-40 minutes.

If you live outside of the center of Paris (which I also did for a while) it's
less ideal though, as the public transportation quickly becomes much more
sparse and you will need a car to get around easily. As most people in the
Paris region actually live in those areas I'd say there's still much work to
be done there.

~~~
ansible
> _The metro is also super efficient, you can get everywhere "intra muros" in
> 30-40 minutes._

Yes. Both times I was there visiting, we didn't bother with even the buses.
The Metro was usually a short walk, and a short wait.

~~~
yardie
The metro is like elementary school. You’re a professional when you can hack
the metro and buses and get anywhere in <30min. While m pretty god with the
former my spouse, who prefers the buses, can get to any part of the city with
the least amount of walking.

------
carlob
> In Paris, this isn’t necessarily such a tall order. The mayor oversees only
> the 2.2 million residents of the city’s heavily populated historic core,
> which already enjoys some of the use-mixing that the 15-minute-city concept
> encourages, thanks to its pre-industrial roots.

This is the main problem of Paris and of Hidalgo. For most practical purposes
Paris is a 10 million inhabitants city, yet only 2 get to vote for the 'real'
mayor, those who live outside the historic center are fragmented into a bunch
of smaller counties and are also generally poorer than 'real' Parisians.

When Hidalgo banned cars on the quays, Parisians were very happy, while
commuters from other counties had to add some time to their commute and were
furious.

Look at this [0] plot, see how the green line stopped tracking the blue one?
That's your problem...

[0]
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Croissan...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Croissance_population_Paris.PNG)

~~~
antpls
From the article : "In her re-election campaign, Mayor Anne Hidalgo says that
every Paris resident should be able to meet their essential needs within a
short walk or bike ride."

"Paris" is defined as Paris intra-muros + the Boulogne and Vincenne parks,
which are limited in space and was saturated long time ago. You are a "Paris
resident" if you live inside of the City of Paris (the green line of the
plot).

The chart is showing "Aire urbaine" and "Unité urbaine" which are another way
to draw geographical limits and are only used for statistical purposes, and
they include the "Region of Paris", or "Ile de France". Obviously, the region
is expanding like any other capital's region in the world, so that plot
exactly shows nothing.

The sentence "For most practical purposes Paris is a 10 million inhabitants
city" is fake news. People living inside of the City of Paris are asking to be
able to use bikes or other transport means, but all the cars coming from
_outside_ of Paris everyday are making it difficult.

Stop confusing the Region of Paris and the City of Paris. People living inside
the City of Paris (the Parisians) have right to elect a mayor who will defend
them. If you live in one of the adjacent cities, go elect a mayor that will
locally improve your quality of life, but (real) Parisians are sick of the
traffic inside their city and no other city has right to decide for them.

~~~
rhn_mk1
The point of democracy and electing mayors is to empower people to change
their destiny. The chart shows that there population of the larger Paris area
is increasing, as you yourself confirm:

> the region is expanding like any other capital's region in the world

Why are new people coming there though? Are they coming to tie their lives to
the City of Paris, but they must settle for the larger region because of the
saturation? Or are they coming to join the Region of Paris because of its
merits excluding the City?

If it's for the former, then they deserve some democratic influence on the
place that brought them there, and the chart shows that the division into City
of Paris and the rest denies the newcomers that influence.

~~~
antpls
It's only my own opinion, but I believe there is too much centralization of
national, international and diplomatic institutions inside the City of Paris.
I am _for_ more decentralization of businesses and powers across the Region of
Paris and across other cities of France. House pricing clearly shows that the
City of Paris is a gravity center in terms of everything, which leads to many
of the current traffic and pollution issues imo. Maybe a decentralization of
France's institutions, powers, businesses etc could help it?

Edit : Idea : at each new presidential term, move all institutions and the
french "white house" to Lyon or Marseilles, second biggest city of France. At
the next presidential term, move everything again to Paris.

~~~
jackjeff
Or Toulouse ranked 4. That may force the government to invest for some
infrastructure. I don’t think we’ll ever a TGV there.

~~~
phtrivier
Oh, come on, it's only about 10 years away [1]. Granted, it's been 10 years
away for about a decade, now.

But that leaves the question of whether Toulouse will get a TGV before nuclear
fusion is invented, Thomas Pesquet walks on Mars, or anyone actually start
_working_ on an Hyperloop instead of faking it [2].)

[1] [https://actu.fr/occitanie/toulouse_31555/pourquoi-projet-
lgv...](https://actu.fr/occitanie/toulouse_31555/pourquoi-projet-lgv-entre-
bordeaux-toulouse-est-nouveau-sur-rails_25069934.html)

[2] [https://actu.fr/occitanie/toulouse_31555/hyperloop-piste-
ess...](https://actu.fr/occitanie/toulouse_31555/hyperloop-piste-essai-
assemblee-tests-capsule-bientot-commencer-
toulouse_21721100.html?utm_source=actu.fr&utm_medium=alireaussi)

------
jasonkester
In contrast, I’ve always considered Los Angeles to be a “45 Minute City”, but
by car. Everything you need is a 45 minute drive from wherever you are now.

The beach is 45 minutes away. It’s 45 minutes to work. Your friends are each
about 45 minutes away, in different directions, and the downtown bar you meet
at on Friday night is 45 minutes away. You can even get out into the mountains
on angel crest highway in about 45 minutes.

But unless you want a CVS pharmacy or a Starbucks, nothing is close by. Ever.

~~~
keiferski
And then there’s NYC - The $20 City. Any time you step outside of your
apartment, you’ll inevitably spend $20 on something.

~~~
Toenex
And Manchester (UK) the 10mm city. Every time you step outside you will absorb
at least 10mm of water.

~~~
Entalpi
Stockholm is the ”next island” city. You live on one island and everything
else is one another island.

------
keiferski
_Paris needs to go one step further and remodel itself so that residents can
have all their needs met—be they for work, shopping, health, or culture—within
15 minutes of their own doorstep._

As someone that has spent a lot of time living in Paris, this is already
pretty much true, at least within the Périphérique. The main issue in my
experience is the lack of green space; there are surprisingly few parks in
Paris.

~~~
_eLRIC
Because Paris is really small and the large parks are just outside Paris :
Bois de Vincennes & Bois de Boulogne are each at least twice the size of
Central Park I hope you didn't miss Parc de Buttes Chaumont, Parc Montsouris &
my favourite : Cimetière du Père Lachaise (yes, a cemetery ... I recommend
going at spring and enjoy how green it is)

~~~
keiferski
Yes yes, I have been to all of those and lived right next to Buttes-Chaumont.
But the city in general always felt like it lacked green space. Especially if
you make a large circle around Opéra - for 2-3km you really don’t have
anything that isn’t small or full of people.

That said - Buttes-Chaumont and Le Jardin du Palais Royale are some of my
favorite urban parks in the world.

~~~
throwaway744678
Les Tuileries are less than 1km from the Opera. Parc Monceau is 2km away.

~~~
fredoliveira
I was there 4 days ago. It is far from green. Sure, it's an open space without
buildings and has a few trees. It is _not_ , however, a green space.

------
tlear
I am curious if the pickpockets still run rampant all over the tourist areas
and subway. Few years back in 3 days:

1\. Dad ran into undercover cop who on subway who told him to watch his stuff
better :o

2\. Got his phone stolen next day on subway, I guess cop was right

3\. I witnessed the typical distract, grab and run.. good thing someone threw
trip and got the runner to drop his prize

4\. Had to deal with 3-4 typical: “please sign this petition while my partner
tries to come up from behind and snatch your crap thing”. The East European
scowl and choice mat solved it

~~~
TomK32
Put the valuable stuff into your trousers front pockets. I'm doing this for
years, it works better than having anything in my back pockets. Though being
193cm tall might deter perps from trying something funny.

~~~
wozniacki
Perhaps insist on better law enforcement than blaming the victim. Pick-
pocketing, by many accounts, is rampant in Paris and is just a sign of how lax
policing is. Its not something to be even modestly indifferent about.

~~~
isbvhodnvemrwvn
Giving hints is hardly victim blaming.

------
discordance
I lived in Japan for a few years and I felt like they’ve nailed this concept.

Everyone I knew across different parts of Tokyo lived within a 10 min walk of
a supermarket, school, nursery, doctor, train station etc. It worked really
well.

~~~
Hamuko
10 minute walk away from a supermarket only gets you so far when you spend an
hour in one direction commuting since you probably go to work more often than
you go grocery shopping.

~~~
laurieg
Interestingly, daily grocery shopping is not uncommon in Japan. Probably down
to supermarkets being close and kitchens being small.

------
d--b
It’s all an election stunt to try and justify that her war on cars won’t
affect Parisians. Ie. If you have everything you need in a 15min walk, you
shouldn’t suffer that the traffic is reduced.

But the things you occasionally need are getting harder to get. Plumbers,
electricians don’t want to come to the city anymore. They will facture in the
awful traffic and the fines they get for the lack of parking space. Basically
no one will come to your apartment for less than 500€. There potentially are
business opportunities there.

~~~
_Microft
Does Paris not issue parking permits to craftsmen? German cities offer special
parking permits to businesses that need to have unwieldy or heavy gear with
them at their customer's place. The yearly fee is in the low hundreds (maybe
250€ even in the larger cities) and usually includes free parking and that
even in places where most people normally would not be allowed to park at all,
e.g. on Anwohnerparkplätzen (residential parking spaces where one would
normally need a permit only available to people living in that street). It
might even allow to enter pedestrian areas in some cities.

~~~
hbbio
> Does Paris not issue parking permits to craftsmen?

No

~~~
mytailorisrich
Yes, Paris has similar permits. Not free, though.

But the issue is not that but lack of parking space. A permit only allows them
to park in actual parking spaces. Most of the time there aren't any
available...

------
esotericn
This seems possible in many major metropolitan areas, with the significant
caveat that in order to live it most would need their wealth to be unlinked
from their earned income.

Zone 1 and most parts of Zone 2 London close to stations are like this.

I've just looked it up out of interest and it makes me feel fairly privileged!

My flat has supermarkets, restaurants, a pharmacy, a bookshop, banks, a
library, museums, one of the biggest parks in London, a hospital, schools,
multiple tube stations, a GP, a dentist, etc etc within 15 minutes walk
(actually I think 10 minutes).

But not everyone (in fact, barely anyone) can afford to live in those areas.
Even if they could afford it in the sense of having the income to spend a ton
of people choose to live further out and have such things as freehold homes,
gardens, etc.

~~~
mattlondon
Yeah I think you nailed it with the idea of people wanting to live further out
to get more space.

Dense urban living is fun when you are energetic (and probably young and
probably single and probably with lots of like-minded friends) and you spend
95% of your time working and socializing, and you basically just use your home
as somewhere to sleep and get washed in between the office and the
bars/restaurants/gyms/etc

However, this is not the same for everyone. I _dream_ of the day when I can
live in a house with its own garden and where I am not physically sharing
walls with other people's homes. At least in London you won't get that
anywhere near your work unless you are absurdly wealthy.

------
pmontra
I live in Milan, 3/4 distance from the very center, and it's basically like
that. I've got 4 supermarkets in 10 minutes walking range, metro station at 3
minutes, some healthcare within 5 minutes (but no ER), countless shops. Cinema
and theaters at 30 minutes by metro. I'm self employed and working mostly from
home so it's a very good experience.

I didn't enjoy it as much when I wasn't self employed. I've been working on
the other side of the city for many years, about 1 hour either by car or by
public transport. Where one works makes all the difference but (this is a
tangent) also how one works. I've been working at 10 minutes from my home for
a couple of years and it didn't feel much different. I was confined in my
office all the day long. It's the normal experience for most of us but it
would feel like living in a prison now.

------
ScarZy
It's quite refreshing to ensure that there's a push for this for the most part
on HN, which is a rather affluent community. I'm not sure about the state of
housing here too, but I am willing to wager that we live, for the most part,
in a high density area.

Working to have all of our expectations for a good life walkable, scootable,
or bikeable is the way we should be designing our cities.

------
lifeisstillgood
I am interested in what the tipping point of density is - it is something I
think Strong Towns idea has right but there are several factors (actual
physical density of homes is key, but planning laws / zones matters, as does
disposable income and actual physical built stock).

I would also ask if new cities (China, India) what their planning / zoning
priorities are?

------
todd8
I had traveled to Paris a number of times and decided to take a drive across
parts of France. Armed with a classic Michelin guide book, I rented a car at
one of the train stations in central Paris. My plan was to simply drive and
stop every evening around 5:30pm using the guide book to find a place to stay.

I was quite surprised that I ended up still in greater Paris on the first
evening. Between stopping to eat, taking photos, and navigating (pre-GPS), I
was still in Paris the first night. Paris is a huge, and lovely, city.

As an aside, it was a great trip. I simply drove south for around 8 days and
picked a different route to drive north back to Paris to fly home. I stumbled
across so many interesting places, the prehistoric caves of the Dordogne, the
dramatic village of Rocamadour located on a cliff, and many other memorable
places.

------
carlchenet
The center of Paris is something like 13-14k€/square meter... The truth is
Parisians with average revenues (for Parisians, not for French people) more
and more live close to the suburbs (13th, 15th, 18th, 19th, 20th districts)
around Paris and the center is full of company's head office, shops and
restaurants. So the picture displayed in the article should figure
inhabitations on the outside skirts and accommodations in the center.

At the national level, Parisians are an average really rich population and
living inside Paris will continue to grow more and more difficult because
living in Paris is nowadays a luxury. And nothing will change this situation
in a close future.

------
tsukurimashou
Now find a way for people to actually afford living in Paris, so they can
reach things within 15 minutes, a lot of people live outside Paris and work
inside Paris, resulting commute times of 2 to 4 hours a day.

------
Proziam
I wonder how many more jobs are needed to make this possible. You'd need more
of everything, plus longer/staggered open hours (who decides what hours make
the most sense, for which districts?).

On the plus side, you'd have more convenience and less need for vehicle
transit. On the potentially negative side, how many of these jobs would
realistically pay a living wage?

~~~
jmnicolas
She's just a politician trying to get reelected, don't expect too much out of
this.

~~~
jackjeff
Most of Paris is basically like that already, and was before she was even
mayor. Promising to the happy few who can live in Paris at 15mins while
commuters from outside need >= 1hr. Turns out commuters don’t vote.

------
xyzzyz
They should first figure out how to make average worker spend less than one 55
minutes commuting by public transit each way.

[https://www.thelocal.fr/20160418/parisians-spend-23-days-
a-y...](https://www.thelocal.fr/20160418/parisians-spend-23-days-a-year-on-
public-transport)

~~~
mikro2nd
That's pretty much exactly what they're trying to do.

~~~
reyqn
And that's not feasible. You can't just reduce the average commuting time to
work by 40 minutes magically

~~~
the_french
The city / region has been working on that by decentralizing major government
and business institutions. By pushing them out of the core in to neighboring
suburbs it allows those employees a real chance at living near work in more
than 15m2.

At the end of the day the only real solution to commutes / crowding is going
to be spreading the load out on more communes and cities.

------
roel_v
At the same time, there is a 30m2 (323 sqft) Parisian apartment for sale for
e1.2mm (USD 1.3mm). Not sure these things are quite compatible...

~~~
toohotatopic
At 1% interests rate, that's e12.000 a year, e1000 a month. Not bad.

~~~
tehlike
Is it 1% interest rate over there?

~~~
stevesimmons
Yes, in Eurozone countries, 10 year fixed mortgage are typically 0.99%.

It's amazingly cheap. Down from 3.5% ten years ago.

The downside of low rates is house prices correspondingly very high.

~~~
rsynnott
Except here in Ireland, unfortunately; absolute lowest mortgage available is
2.3%.

Repossession is especially difficult here, which raises the risk for the
lender, and the banks unwisely gave out ECB trackers (as opposed to the
EURIBOR trackers more common elsewhere) back in the day; some of these can be
as low as 0.5%, so everyone else has to pay for that legacy.

------
rdsubhas
This is utterly, completely dependent on the demographics of the neighborhood,
which is way more harder to change than zoning.

------
hestefisk
This is essentially Copenhagen but at 5-7x (?) scale. Very cool.

------
Animats
More convenience stores will be needed. Ones with longer hours.

~~~
thaumasiotes
Do Parisian convenience stores close at night? Chinese urban convenience
stores don't; even here in the American suburbs CVS is open 24 hours, and so
is Safeway.

~~~
hans1729
>"even here in America"

Not to derail the conversation, byt why the 'even'? 24h-stores seem like an
inherently american concept to me (I'm german, so France is right around the
corner)

~~~
mschuster91
When it comes to opening times of stores, us Germans are way behind everybody
else...

~~~
yodsanklai
I wouldn't say "behind" in that context. I do appreciate the convenience of
24h stores, but I don't see them as a progress for workers rights.

~~~
briandear
If the owner of a store wants to open it for 24 hours and he or employees are
willing to work, how is that bad for workers rights? What’s bad for workers
rights are people that would like the freedom to work a late shift or early
shift but can’t because some do-gooder is trying to “protect” grown adults
from making their own decisions.

~~~
yodsanklai
> If the owner of a store wants to open it for 24 hours and he or employees
> are willing to work, how is that bad for workers rights?

That would be fine, but what is going to happen is that many workers will have
to work night shifts unwillingly. It's bad for their physical and mental
health.

Suppose you have a town with two stores. First store is willing to open 24
hours. Second store may have to do the same to compensate the loss of
customers, and the workers there may have to work night shift even if they
don't want to (I actually witnessed it first hand in my neighbourhood).

This is called a negative externality, and it is a well-known defect of free
market. Even though you would think that opening a store 24h only impacts you
and your customers, it negatively impacts other people.

This is a subjective opinion, but I would argue that the convenience of having
24h stores isn't worth the cost for the workers. Unfortunately, I think that
I'm in the minority and that eventually we'll cross that line in Europe too,
and it'll be hard to go back.

------
olivierduval
With Hidalgo, Paris is becoming more and more an "Elysium" movie city-model:
only a few decide Parisian of what will piss off everybody else. Remember the
end of the movie ? ;-)

Btw... Elysium and Elysée - the Palace of the French President... in Paris -
have the same root. If it can help to understand...

~~~
olivierduval
I would be happy to know why some people downvoted my comment, just to
understand.

I live 100m from Paris, in the suburb, so I'm a bit concerned (and
knowledgable) about this subject. And the current - and maybe next - Paris
mayor is only working for her own electorate (logical).

Problem is: Paris is a central city/region. You can't just "live around it".
So basically when Hidalgo close the "quais de seine", it's fine for people
living in Paris or tourists but it's a PITA for people from one suburb to the
other one. When Hidalgo wants to shutdown the "periphique", it won't matter to
parisians and tourists in Paris, but will make a really big difference for
people working and living outside Paris for whom crossing Paris is the
shortest way.

BTW, 90min from work to home is not really unusual in Paris suburb, and I
would be the happiest man on earth if I could had just 30 min between work and
home.

Moreover, Paris is becoming more and more a car-adverse city (nowhere to park,
except for a lot of money) but public transportation are far from compensating
this (for example: still no public transportation all night long... except one
saturday night every month on a few lines... as an experiment).

So: no cars, not enough public transportations, and a central town (by design
and history).

------
uinerkrj
Cities are terrible places to live. To prove my point, can you walk to a
natural area (beach, forest, mountain, etc) within 15 minutes? Of course not,
other than maybe a tiny manicured park full of people. That "green area"
pictured in the diagram will be the only green area, it will be a flat park of
some sort, and it will be your only choice of place to visit. It will be more
like a museum for trees than any kind of natural habitat.

That doesn't meet anybodies "needs". This is all just dressing up ways to
reduce the costs of humans. Governments are just a collection of large
companies (their controllers), who run the world the same as if it is a
business. The citizens of the city are a cost, and these are marketing
campaigns to get them to accept cost reduction measures.

Also, as I am getting downvoted, I may as well point out that Paris itself is
an especially terrible place to live. In fact, I don't know many parisians
that live there, and I have never met anybody that likes it. HN obsession with
density and walking is hilarious.

~~~
rsynnott
I mean, it’s all down to personal preference, really. I’d hate to live
somewhere where I couldn’t walk or get around by rapid public transport. Car
oriented suburbs (or, worse, rural areas) are my idea of hell. And if I want
to go to a mountain or a beach (which is something I want to do way less than,
say, going to work or the supermarket or going for a drink with friends, all
of which are walking distance) I can get on a train.

Mind you, this is a city of 1.5 million people; mega cities like Paris have
their own challenges.

