
Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF - hannele
http://betakit.com/joist-lays-off-60-employees-as-company-relocates-to-san-francisco/
======
MOARDONGZPLZ
I relocated to Toronto SPECIFICALLY to work for Joist, exactly one week ago. I
was laid off along with everyone else within 6 days of working for them! Prior
to that I was working in the USA for a few years; I'm now in a position where
I have to figure out next steps with regards to my career :/ I'm still unsure
why they hired me and brought me down here? I'm also hoping that they pay me
for my time there (I worked my hardest to impress them, albeit only a week!)

By the way by my count it was closer to 90 people laid off, so they are
depressing these numbers.

~~~
mabbo
Don't be thrown off of Toronto by one douchebag company. There's lots of jobs
here for developers, and it's just a great city (imho).

I posted below, but the company I work for is hiring in Toronto and the pay is
pretty good for this city.

~~~
gist
> Don't be thrown off of Toronto by one douchebag company

What do you think the company should do? It's a company not a person who left
their spouse when they got cancer. They are doing what they feel they should
do in order to thrive and survive.

Now you can argue that you think they are wrong, that is that they don't need
to move. But then again you won't suffer the downside of the wrong decision.
They will. Companies do what companies have to do in order to grow the
business based on how they interpret the facts. That is what joist has done.

~~~
khuey
If you're considering laying off 2/3rds of your staff and relocating the
remainder to another country, maybe you shouldn't be actively hiring. They
didn't come up with this idea last week.

~~~
plandis
Or at least not actively hiring in the place you're going to relocate from

------
udba
As an engineering student at UWaterloo it's pretty depressing to watch most of
the best upper year engineers finish their studies and then abandon Canada for
SV. There's logic in it for them: American companies are offering huge sums of
money by Canadian standards, the weather is nicer, and the opportunities seem
better. If I didn't have serious reservations about living in the US, I would
probably do the same.

However, I find it particularly reprehensible when companies make the move.
For them, it's counter-intuitive: they have access to a huge pool of talent,
both experienced devs and the vast armies of grads from UofT, UW and others.
Furthermore, they're getting this talent at dirt cheap rates, since the
Canadian peso is awful at the moment and salaries are significantly lower here
than those in SV and the wider US.

Their expenses go up because they have to pay in USD (instant 25% hit in
purchasing power), and they get thrown into the rat race of competing for
talent in SV. I really wonder what goes through the mind of some of these
moronic execs when they make moves like this.

~~~
kevindeasis
Out of curiosity, how does the process of job hunting work in the Ontario area
if they get a job in SV? Does the SV company offer a visa permit or does the
student apply for work permit in advance?

~~~
potatolicious
In almost all cases a work permit must be tied to a job offer, so it's not
possible to apply for a work permit in advance.

You interview, you get the offer, and the lawyers at the company apply for the
visa for you.

There are some exception cases where an open-ended visa is possible, but this
is uncommon - but if you're famous in the industry you may qualify.

~~~
kevindeasis
Thank you, Jerry that was very helpful!

------
bryanlarsen
Now that they've gone to the expense of moving their remaining 30 employees to
San Francisco and have demonstrated such incredible loyalty to their
employees, let's see how many of those remaining 30 take advantage of the many
opportunities in the Valley to jump ship.

~~~
aquilaFiera
I was apart of the reddit exodus when they closed the Salt Lake City and New
York City offices (I was in SLC.) It only took me 90 days which was the
minimum requirement to not have to pay your moving expenses back. Since then,
which happened in January 2015, I would roughly estimate that 50-60% has
turned over at reddit.

All of this to say it typically doesn't end well for the company unless this
is what they're planning on.

~~~
hsod
To be clear, you took the relo package, waited the minimum number of days,
then jumped ship?

~~~
aquilaFiera
The answer to your question is yes, that's the way it worked, but I didn't do
it intentionally. My next company just happened to call right around then.

------
mabbo
If anyone whose been let go by Joist is reading this: I'm a developer with
Amazon in Toronto. There's a lot going on here- 300 developers in 4 or 5 major
divisions doing all kinds of interesting stuff. The pay's good (for Toronto),
we're well located (beside Union station), and of course we're hiring.

My username, but at my company's name, dot-com. Happy to chat by email, but
I'll link you to our jobs site:
[https://www.amazon.jobs/en/search?location%5B%5D=toronto-
can...](https://www.amazon.jobs/en/search?location%5B%5D=toronto-
canada&category%5B%5D=software-development)

~~~
cm3
Is it different than Amazon Seattle? I mean, is there a reasonable balance
between work and life?

~~~
wbkang
At least on my floor most people leave at around 6.

~~~
protomyth
arriving at?

~~~
wbkang
9-10am

------
MrLeftHand
This is some nasty stuff.

I feel sorry for the guy literally working there less then a day and getting
the boot.

Shows some really serious problems in management. Who the hell hires people
when they know very well they won't stay and make the whole staff redundant.
Well, except for friends and family of course. Either it was a lack of
communication between management and HR, or they just really didn't give a
flying f*ck.

Another grim story about startup life. Not everything that has four legs is a
unicorn apparently.

~~~
n00b101
I know someone who left a finance job in NYC to move to London. Was fired in
his first week; the trading desk he had joined was abruptly closed down. I
guess senior management kept the plans secret from the line managers who kept
on hiring without knowing what was coming. So I don't think this sort of thing
only happens in start-ups (if anything, I would guess this type of thing is
more likely to happen in a large company where your hiring manager is several
levels down from the CEO and might not have any idea that his business unit is
about to be closed/divested/relocated/etc).

~~~
jackweirdy
That's awful; not least because (depending on their role) gardening leave
might apply, preventing them from getting a job in the finance industry for
months

~~~
jsprogrammer
The company should be responsible for lost wages due to the solicited
employee's detrimental reliance on the company's representations.

------
disordinary
Surely it's harder to get talent in the bay area? Lots of competition for
staff and you can't attract people there because those who want be there would
have already gone for one of the other companies.

What's always interesting is that every startup is building a world class team
with some of the best developers in the world. Surely every startup can't hire
the best because the best is finite, otherwise they'd be hiring the average.

If a company which does something in the diy space wants the best of the best
then who is actually developing the languages and tooling? If the best
developers are helping my tiler to invoice me then who is working machine
learning, software to cure cancer, language design, software to control space
travel, etc?

We can't all be the best, and sometimes you've gotta think. I help people in
the construction industry, I'm not Google, and in fact it's irresponsible of
me to try and hire the best people because they're going to do so much more
for society working somewhere else.

------
johngalt
This is a good example of why you should treat interviews as a two way street.
Don't just worry about convincing them that you are the right candidate. You
should also try to determine if they are the right employer.

~~~
cm3
I view unsuccessful interviews as a way to see some city I wouldn't have
otherwise visited and more importantly get experience with current job
interview styles. It takes time, but it's not a total waste. Though, some
companies make it hard or take very long to get travel reimbursement.

------
notacynic
This has nothing to do with hiring and everything to do with finding a buyer.
A lot of companies are told by potential buyers "if you were in SV we would
buy you". Relocating lets them cut head count, improve financial outlook (new
cost structure) and get closer to a potential acquisition. Definitely in the
interest of the investors.

------
Naritai
I came to the valley in a forced relocation some time ago. In that case, we
also lost >50% of the team, including engineering. (I stayed until my green
card came through then jumped ship.) It was clear, though, that the VPs and up
didn't care, because they had their heart set on being Silicon Valley
Executives, and damned if they were going to let the rank-and-file get in
their way. They were so caught up in the glory of VC and speeding down 280
that they were not interested in the business argument. And as for the
departing staff? "It's Silicon Valley, we can easily replace staff"

Here I get a sense of the same story. There is no way it's difficult to hire
talent in Toronto, which consistently ranks as one of the most desirable
cities in the world. A simple Google search also will produce hundreds, if not
thousands, of articles about how the Canadian immigration system is a breeze
compared to the US's. Thus I believe this executive team is the same as my own
- determined to be 'San Francisco startup CEO', and damned the cost.

By the way, my company's technology fell behind its competitors' (perhaps
because of the loss of talent?) and was sold off to a conglomerate ~5 years
later, at the same valuation as it had pre-relocation. The CEO had departed
the company by then.

~~~
potatolicious
Yeah, it doesn't feel like things really ever work out, retention-wise, for
companies that move from elsewhere to SV. Invariably they make "cost of living
adjustments" to comp, but never enough to actually be competitive with the
infamous SF/SV market, and so their talent drains as soon as they set foot in
the Bay Area.

This particular news about Joist is just confusing - it looks like they've
laid off a _huge_ portion of their staff, with no replacements on the
immediate horizon. Doesn't this mean that the business has effectively ground
to a halt while they re-hire in SV?

It sounds less like a move and more like a reboot.

~~~
Naritai
It does sound like they kept most of their engineers, and shed mostly CS staff
- which shows a remarkable disdain for those positions. I would be very
nervous about working for this company in one of those positions in the
future.

------
protomyth
comment in that thread by James

 _Half the team were employees in every legal definition of what makes an
employee (they deducted and punished "independent contractors" which you can
only do with employees" \- as the case was with Uber and they settled) but
were categorized as "Independent Contractors" until April, they were forced to
sign new contracts saying they employees but were under "probation" for
another 3 months, so until the end of June. They planned this from the
beginning, so they didn't have to have a lawsuit when they did this and say
"hey you signed a contract" .... forced signed, they changed the pay structure
in May without a change in contract either. These employees only got 2 weeks,
despite being a week and a half away from passing probation._

Does anyone know if this is true, because this is really poor behavior.

------
jacques_chester
> _to achieve our vision for Joist, we need the best talent in the world_

This is a standard mantra of startup lore, but if I put on my nitpicking hat,
is it strictly true?

I mean we're not talking about the Manhattan Project here.

Plus it's not as though there isn't _intensely fierce_ competition for talent
in the valley. Just because a lot of talented people are there, doesn't mean
you'll get to hire them. The "best talent in the world" is already bid up to
high levels by those few companies in the Bay Area who are straddling rivers
of gold.

Where I work, we have offices all over the world, including one here in NYC
and another in Toronto. Because of the timezone alignment and relatively short
travel times, we're now experimenting with more and more remote pairing to
share projects between the two offices.

In Joist's position I might have considered opening an NYC office instead.
It's not as though this city lacks for talent either and if they feel like
paying a lot for it, the finance folks have kindly bid up top performers for
them. They can get all the difficulties of hiring in the valley, but much
closer to home.

~~~
johan_larson
The question to ask anyone who claims they only hire the best is, "How do you
make sure of that?"

They should have an answer, and it needs to be a good one.

~~~
jacques_chester
We used to have a question for interviewers where I work: "Will this person
raise the average?"

I used to detest it. I left no shortage of smartarse remarks about infinite
limits in a finite world.

In fact nobody really liked that question and it was eventually removed in
favour of variations on the core question: _do you want to work with this
person?_

~~~
johan_larson
> "Will this person raise the average?"

"Do half of you think you're dumber than this guy?"

It's a great question.

------
ninjaroar
Odd decision.

If they were willing to pay silicon-valley level salaries in Toronto, they
would have no trouble getting senior talent.

But they will be forced to pay silicon-valley level salaries in San Francisco
anyways.

~~~
st3v3r
And they're likely not gonna be able to offer enough to separate themselves
from the sea of companies there.

------
zhte415
Why not run operations separately (those with limited ability to relocate,
mentioned in article) from technology (those with easier access).

A 2-site center with good right people and good workflows (and established, in
this case) brings compounded gains. A 90 people company is well above the
border-line in establishing dual-site offices.

------
cm3
> we need the best talent in the world

So why didn't they allow people to remote from Toronto?

~~~
talmand
Because that statement has absolutely no basis in reality.

------
8_hours_ago
Luckily lots of companies in Toronto are hiring and are taking advantage of
this opportunity to recruit the people affected by this move.

[https://twitter.com/search?q=%23joist60](https://twitter.com/search?q=%23joist60)

~~~
cm3
I've always wondered what happened to the hardware and software talent from
RIM, now that they've pretty much stopped producing anything useful.

~~~
vinceguidry
This guy worked at RIM back in the day. Amazingly talented.

[https://www.youtube.com/user/Matthiaswandel](https://www.youtube.com/user/Matthiaswandel)

~~~
Naritai
We must always take some time to enjoy his seminal work, the BlackBerry
cannon.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1239rkV8bQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1239rkV8bQ)

------
kevindeasis
Isn't this bad precedent? If they move to SF area would talented programmers
still want to work for them?

It seems like they are a company you can't trust (from what I read in the
comment section in that link)

------
edude03
I interviewed with Joist 2ish years ago but after the first interview I didn't
think the culture was conducive to my career goals. News like this makes me
feel like I dodged a bullet.

~~~
p4wnc6
Getting any tech job at this point in time is simply a matter of which bullet
you will finally, defeatedly choose not to dodge. Every company wants your
fealty, overt signals that you'll cower yourself to them, much, much more than
any kind of technology competence or aptitude.

It's either this, or a person hasn't had enough experience yet to know this,
and so they still have bright-eyed optimism that _this one company_ is _the_
one that's going to elevate their career, treat them in a minimally acceptable
manner, etc., and you can bet the recruiting staff is banking on finding these
people. It's very depressing.

------
cleaver
The comment thread on /r/toronto was not particularly friendly towards Joist.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/4pa6fp/joist_lays_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/4pa6fp/joist_lays_off_60_employees_as_company_relocates/)

------
jrockway
Just going to leave this here:

[http://www.google.com/about/careers/locations/waterloo/](http://www.google.com/about/careers/locations/waterloo/)

[https://www.google.com/about/careers/jobs#t=sq&q=j&li=20&l=f...](https://www.google.com/about/careers/jobs#t=sq&q=j&li=20&l=false&jlo=en-
US&jl=43.653226%3A-79.38318429999998%3AToronto%2C+ON%2C+Canada%3ACA%3ACA%3A19.271436077549094%3ALOCALITY&jl=43.4642578%3A-80.5204096%3AWaterloo%2C+ON%2C+Canada%3ACA%3A%3A5.732117171117123%3ALOCALITY&jld=10&)

(Search above includes both Tornoto and Waterloo, but Waterloo is the main
engineering office in the area.)

------
grandalf
I've worked with Joist's CTO before and he's got a very high ethical standard
and strong commitment to teams he's a part of. I'm sure this decision was not
an easy one.

Bottom line, we need freer trade to make international boundaries irrelevant
to business.

~~~
justin66
His company just hired a couple of people and let them go a week later in a
layoff. Clearly, the problem is the international trade system, nothing to do
with management's ethics or lack of commitment to its team members.

OK...

~~~
grandalf
I can't speak for the ethics of the other members of the management team, but
I think it's unreasonable to assume that the decision was made for any other
reason than necessity.

It may be that the decision to hire new people a week earlier was out of
optimism that moving to the bay area was not going to be necessary.

------
lordnacho
Why don't they just open a US office and get their "senior talent" there, if
it's that easy to hire them in SV? And if it is easier, why would they cost
more in SV? Maybe because there's competition?

Also, it's a bit of a cliche that you need the best people to be successful.
Organisation is far more important. That other cliche that the team is more
than the sum of its parts is far more true.

I moved abroad with a very small team a few years ago. It totally broke the
culture. People went on intellectual holiday, and haven't recovered. We also
became insanely insular, not getting any real inputs from other financial
industry insiders.

~~~
st3v3r
Investors want access to the founders, and so they have to be in SF.

------
bpicolo
I have to imagine they're going to have trouble finding talent in San
Francisco for the same reason they have trouble finding talent in Toronto.
It's not exactly a non-competitive area.

------
zongitsrinzler
They might have access to more "top talent", but there will be 10x more
companies after each of those 30 remaining employees as well who I'm sure will
leave this caring company as soon as they get green cards.

------
reustle
> Kathan told BetaKit that the “incredible difficulty” of acquiring senior-
> level talent in Toronto

As some companies are (finally) starting to realize, there are incredibly
talented people all over the world, who are not within 1.5 hours of your
office. Allowing them to work remotely opens your company up to a much higher
caliber of talent for the same, if not lower, cost. The tools are out there
now and they work well. I have a distributed team of developers for my small
consulting company, and I feel no pressure to open an office any time soon.

EDIT: Why was this post flagged? Comments now disabled?

~~~
robinson7d
Another option: offer SF "senior-level talent" salaries in Toronto. They'll be
spending more than this by relocating and then hiring down there anyway. I
expect they'd find that there's plenty of talent already in Toronto, or
willing to move.

To me, it seems pretty obvious that the move to SF is more about image than
about whom they can hire.

~~~
keithwhor
I'm not sure. If you're in San Francisco you can hire from any major
metropolitan area in North America, and probably the world. Relocation tends
not to be that big of an issue - it's Silicon Valley, there's tremendous
opportunity. It's not just that the "talent" is already in SF, it's that the
talent from all over the world is drawn to the Valley by brand recognition
alone.

~~~
paulgb
I disagree, I know a lot of people who reluctantly moved to the Bay Area for
salary who would rather be elsewhere. The Bay Area appeals to some people, but
not everybody

(also, hey Keith :))

~~~
keithwhor
Yeah, but the question here isn't "Bay Area" v "Everywhere Else", it's "Bay
Area" v "Toronto". Toronto has lower salaries, colder weather, and generally
fewer investors that are more risk-averse (which puts companies there at more
risk existentially, especially in early stages). It's a beautiful city, I love
Toronto, I was born and grew up there. But there's a lot of work to be done to
make it competitive with the Bay Area.

The saving grace is this: I imagine the counterintuitive first step of
continuing to bolster Toronto's tech scene is actually efflux of talent
towards the Bay Area. The few who do "strike oil" in SV are more likely to
direct some of that capital back home, make bigger bets, and mentor
entrepreneurs there.

~~~
robinson7d
Of course, your first qualm (lower salaries) was exactly what the comment said
to remove by providing SF "senior-level talent" salaries. USD-converted rates
and all. Quality of life in Toronto with those salaries would be excellent,
and I think it would attract a lot of talent.

Though you're right - the cold did drive me away.

