

Ask HN: How to handle clients asking for a design document before hiring. - minhajuddin

So, I just talked to a client of mine. I bid on his job on freelancing website. The discussion went somewhat like this:<p>1)Client: Hey, so, you are going building this thing.
2)Me: Hi, yeah.
3)Client:  how are you going to solve this* problem?
4)Me: Well, you could do blah blah or you could do this other blah blah...
5)Back to step 3 (he did this almost 10 times)<p>He was asking things in excruciating detail. About how I was going to solve each and every problem. It was as if I was writing the algorithm for the problem. I finally had to stop and ask him to send me a requirements doc. And, he now wants an estimate with <i>solutions</i> to each of those <i>requirement</i>.<p>I haven't worked with this client before. So:
1) Should I really send him solutions to the problems in his requirements doc?
2) Should I even hope that this guy will hire me?
3) Did any of you have a similar experience? If so, how did you handle it? And how did it end?<p>I would really appreciate any help.
======
RiderOfGiraffes
My $0.02 - free advice is often worth what you pay for it - _caveat emptor_
...

Tell him you'd love the job, and can provide a portfolio to show that you've
done this sort of work before.

Then quote a price to provide the broad outline, and make that a deliverable.
Then quote for any given solution to a problem. Make sure that you get paid
for each piece of work before you do the next. Make it clear that you always
do this until you have a history with a client - it's a clean, clear and
professional way of working, especially remotely.

Provide your work in small, valuable deliverables. You're doing work - charge
for it. Make it clear that at any point he can take what you've done and go
elsewhere, and then charge at a rate where you'd be happy if he did so.

Make it clear that you're doing work, you're spending time, you're using your
expertise, and you're happy to do so and get paid for it.

Be cheerful, constructive and helpful.

~~~
bambax
Excellent advice. But from the description of the OP I doubt this will ever go
anywhere.

Is this a company or an individual? If it's an individual I would suggest to
run. If it's a company then maybe there's a little more hope...?

~~~
bradleyland
The real epiphany comes when you realize you don't _want_ these types of
exchanges to go anywhere. If your intent is to be paid for your work then you
have to develop strategies to separate paying and non-paying clients very
early in the relationship.

~~~
dpritchett
This same thought process works for job interviews, too. Let's say that
failure to disclose your current salary means you won't be considered for the
job. Would you have enjoyed working for that organization anyway? Time saved
up front for both parties.

------
yeahsure
Not sure if this will help, but this is how we operate at the web design
company I manage:

1) Prospect gets in touch with us via email or phone.

2) We send them a "Project Planner". This is a questionnaire with key
questions (i.e. "What's the goal of your project?") that we've put together.

3) We quickly review the project and send the prospect an estimate of how much
it will cost to develop and an estimated timeline. We make sure to make the
prospect know the quote and timeline is based on the ideal that it doesn't
includes revisions. Something like: Each revision will extend the delivery
date by XX days.

5) If the prospect accepts we send them a contract and ask for a 50% payment
before we do any work. If they are not comfortable with that, or the project
is too big, we ask for 25% and then setup several payment deadlines as the
project moves forward.

6) After the retainer has been paid, we send the (now) client a new
questionnaire, called "Client Worksheet". Here we get specific to get to know
the client better.

6) Once we receive payment, we make some research on the project and provide
some wireframes along with simple explanations on how we think the goal can be
achieved.

7) After the client is happy with the final wireframe and signs it off, we
proceed to design the mockups. We already know what he likes so usually a
couple of revisions is good enough to get final approval.

8) Once the design has been approved we start coding. Most of the "how will it
work" has been already discussed through the wireframes, so it's pretty easy
at this point.

9) Testing, final payment and launch :-)

Hope this helps!

~~~
bo_Olean
i am just curious about the "Project Planner" and "Client Worksheet" you have
mentioned in the comment. that's a good way to collect prospect's idea of the
project. Any pointers that'd guide us build such questionnaire ? thanks.

~~~
yeahsure
Hey,

Sure. It depends on which kinds of projects you usually get though (most of
the time we develop WordPress sites). We try to keep the questionnaires as
short as possible, while gathering all the info we need.

For the Project Planner we ask things such as (In parenthesis how this helps
us):

\- What do you need a website for? (The GOAL)

\- Do you need dynamic content? How often? (CMS or not?)

\- What action(s) should the user perform when visiting your site? (Which CMS?
Are there plugins for this?)

\- How many sections will your website have? (How many screens we'll need to
design)

\- What's your budget? (Is the client a fit?)

As for the client worksheet:

\- In which market does your business operate? (Helps with research)

\- What sets you apart from the competition? Please provide competitor URLs.
(What can we focus in to make it stand out)

\- Briefly describe the need you seek to solve. (What we'll focus on)

\- Color preferences (We also suggest using colourlovers.com to send us a
palette if they want to. Otherwise we pick the colors)

\- List two or three sites that you like, either how they look or the way they
work (Usually they'll like a certain format or UX)

\---

LMK if you have any other questions. Hope this helps!

~~~
bo_Olean
this will really help, we will add few more questions to suite our client
base. thanks for making this clear..

------
jeffcouturier
No, absolutely not.

1) Unless the client has already signed a contract (and I hope you require a
down payment) don't give away the farm. Meaning, don't give him planning,
architecture, design, etc. things that hey should be paying for before you are
in a contractual relationship that requires him to pay you. You have to
protect yourself.

2) Don't work on spec (speculation), ever. That means that if the client wants
to see a design before deciding to work with you, walk away and don't look
back. No exceptions. This is a giant blinking red signal telling you that this
client will not and does not respect the skill that goes into your work, and
will be a pain in the ass for you. These people are almost never worth your
time or what they are paying you - if they pay you at all.

Respectfully tell this client that your policy doesn’t permit spec work. Check
out <http://no-spec.com> for resources and details on how to explain this to
your client.

------
huherto
It is possible he is using you to learn. Dealing with that is very common in
consulting.

There are a few things you can do.

\- Find out who will be making the decision. Insist that you will provide more
information as you meet the decision makers. \- Find out what alternatives
they are considering. Use this knowledge to better position yourself. \-
Explain that are many important details still to be considering that will be
addressed as you continue the project.

I am very rusty. But read about Solution Selling.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solution_selling>

------
ww520
You can tell him WHAT you are going to do but not HOW. I used to have a client
who would keep asking me for solution with the lure of a project coming up,
but then said thanks, problem solved. I had to jokingly say I need to start
charging for consultation for providing solution, but eventually had to fire
the client.

But on the other hand, I have clients whom I gave detail proposal on WHAT to
be done in the projects and the projects were awarded.

~~~
bo_Olean
i ended my day concluding the same line : >> You can tell him WHAT you are
going to do but not HOW.

here is what happened:

my bid was accepted, job poster selected me for interview, he sent me 3 emails
straight in last seven hours via private messaging on the bidding site. i
asked him to share his contact, asked him to join me in skype, got no
response. he continued asking "how would you scale", "how would you fix
database..", "how would you speed up the app..", "what is preferred framework
for such large project.." i was more concerned about getting my first job via
such freelance market, i replied all his queries, spent my day goggling around
the questions. when i hit the reply button to his 3rd email, there came a
notification in my email inbox "you job application was declined." 3rd email
was about preferred mvc framework for his web site.

my bad, this thread was not here yesterday.

------
mdink
RiderOfGiraffes is absolutely correct. I often do quite a bit of documentation
upfront to make sure the client knows exactly what they are going to get. From
wireframes to technical summaries, each is a step in the overall project
process (and completely billable). Don't be afraid to shoot down something you
think is considered "spec" work such as a bit of UI demonstration or data
modeling. They either see your previous experience and trust you or not.
Otherwise run away - could be a shitty client.

In answer to your specific case - explain to him that the first deliverable is
a "project brief" which summarizes the project and proposed "high-level"
solutions. Again - totally billable.

------
bugsy
Been there done that.

The key is he wants all this detail before committing. This guy is never going
to pay you anything, why should he, he is getting you to do everything for
free. I have been there hundreds of times and not once has it lead to
anything. For all you know, he is another freelancer who is having you do the
design work for HIS client by asking these questions. That has happened to me
before.

Detailed work requires a retainer paid in advance. Treat this as a lawyer or
any other such professional would. Clients get a 30 minute free consultation
wher eyou come to understand their problem and if you can help them. Then they
make a decision to to hire you or not. If they want you, based on the
interview and your reputation, they start by writing you a $5,000 check and
you start billing off it. If there is money left over or they change their
mind they get a full refund of the amount not spent.

------
dclaysmith
Why not charge him for the consulting? You are providing him a service solving
these problems (or proposing solutions to them). Make it fair to you and him.
If he's not satisfied, you can both walk away. If the project continues,
you'll be starting from a pretty good position.

------
brudgers
There's no such thing as a client you have never worked with before until
there is a signed contract. In other words, the person is a potential client,
not an actual client.

In my opinion, you just write up a proposal that covers your interests and see
what happens - try not to spend more than 1/2 a day on the proposal per
$10,000 in revenue.

------
minhajuddin
Thank you very much, everyone :) Your comments have given me a lot of clarity
on how to filter good clients and how not to fall for spec work.

------
ascendant
Sounds exactly like what you're afraid of. He's milking you for free
consulting. Tell him no designs will be forthcoming until he signs a legally
binding contract and/or the first payment is made, depending on how you
operate. I would assume that if you give him everything for free, he won't
turn around and pay you after the fact.

------
ddemchuk
Never do spec work. Never.

Show him your portfolio and examples of solutions you have solved that are
similar. Unless a contract is signed, don't do anything more than a nice
proposal.

