
Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? - ptr
http://www.danielsjourney.com/2017/12/21/america.html
======
seibelj
> _In London, Paris, Berlin, I hop on the train, head to the cafe — it’s the
> afternoon, and nobody’s gotten to work until 9am, and even then, maybe not
> until 10 — order a carefully made coffee and a newly baked croissant, do
> some writing, pick up some fresh groceries, maybe a meal or two, head home —
> now it’s 6 or 7, and everyone else has already gone home around 5 — and
> watch something interesting, maybe a documentary by an academic, the BBC’s
> Blue Planet, or a Swedish crime-noir. I think back on my day and remember
> the people smiling and laughing at the pubs and cafes._ [0]

No, not everyone in Europe gets to live white-collar worker dream of writing
poetry at the coffee shop and coming in late. See the people working at the
coffee shop, the construction workers, garbage men, etc.

One thing I love about America is that people still get shit done here. One
reason that Europe has very few innovative new companies created in the last
25 years is that everyone is at the coffee shop writing poetry.

An old joke - _" Every MBA in America dreams of starting a billion dollar
business. Every MBA in Europe dreams of starting a satellite office of the
American business."_

[0] From the actual blog the author quoted from [https://eand.co/what-do-you-
call-a-world-that-cant-learn-fro...](https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-world-
that-cant-learn-from-itself-58ae28cefd23)

~~~
cribbles
> One reason that Europe has very few innovative new companies created in the
> last 25 years is that everyone is at the coffee shop writing poetry.

This does not dispute the central point of the quoted piece, which is that the
quality of life of most Americans is very poor contrast to that of the average
person in some subset of European countries. I would wager that most coffee
shop employees are more concerned with labor protections, healthcare, social
welfare, the ability to afford housing and take vacations than whether their
country’s economy is producing “innovative companies” (read: tech startups?).
This was certainly true of myself when I worked in food service.

Even so, this point does not stand well on its own. It may be that Europeans
are deincentivized from creating enormously overvalued startups because their
quality of life is much better (although I question whether this is worth
bragging about, from a US standpoint). Nevertheless, I’d consider things like
lack of a single market, fragmented languages and cultures, completely
different VC environment, and so on to be much more impactful in that regard.

~~~
bepotts
Americans don't believe the onus is on the whole to make sure the individual
lives a happy life. We just don't have the collectivist culture the Europeans
have. I think this is a great thing, and is why America is where most of the
innovation, cultural, and political power is.

I personally have lower taxes, high quality healthcare, and live in an awesome
location, and I got all of that through an education and training. That is
available to almost every American if they just put in the work.

That, to me, is not just a great thing but the morally right thing. Apply
yourself and make a better future for you and your family.

To the people responding to me with the most _predictable_ lines: poverty
exists in Europe; so does homelessness; as does food insecurity. Please don't
tell me that Europe is some great place where poverty doesn't exist and
everyone is living great lives.

It is also possible to be sympathetic toward the most needy while not
supporting collectivism. You know what the poor need most? A marketable skill.
A good job. Support programs that give people the skills they need in order to
compete in a globalized market. It's funny how collectivists never push that
though, and instead push for more collectivism.

~~~
jfk13
> I personally have lower taxes, high quality healthcare, and live in an
> awesome location, and I got all of that through an education and training.
> That is available to almost every American if they just put in the work.

I'm sure that's nice for you personally. From what I've observed, this simply
isn't true for many in America, who face desperate struggles _despite_ hard
work.

~~~
netsharc
"If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman
in Africa would be a millionaire." \- George Monbiot

If you believe in the gospel of meritocracy, "hard work = success", then you'd
have to believe the reverse ("poor people are poor because they're lazy.").
But this ignores the luck factor (that a lot of people are poor because of bad
luck, and that a lot of people are so god damn rich because of good luck).
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTDGdKaMDhQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTDGdKaMDhQ)

------
lupire
This is the blathering of spoiled rich kid on vacation.

> In London, Paris, Berlin, I hop on the train, head to the cafe — it’s the
> afternoon, and nobody’s gotten to work until 9am, and even then, maybe not
> until 10 — order a carefully made coffee and a newly baked croissant, do
> some writing, pick up some fresh groceries, maybe a meal or two, head home —
> now it’s 6 or 7, and everyone else has already gone home around 5 — and
> watch something interesting, maybe a documentary by an academic, the BBC’s
> Blue Planet, or a Swedish crime-noir. I think back on my day and remember
> the people smiling and laughing at the pubs and cafes.

This is so farcical it's not even worth trying to rebut.

~~~
piker
It's hilarious that the author is citing television. Is there anyone on the
Earth who believes, e.g., British television is better as a whole than US
television? They must really like slow-to-never-developing low budget, single
camera angle crime dramas.

[Edit: Apparently so! Quite the controversial statement. However, when voting,
do consider what percentage of television consumed outside of the US was
produced IN the US and vice versa.]

~~~
richardwhiuk
The endless interruptions of adverts every 5 minutes does tend to encourage me
that the experience of US television is worse.

Some of the actual content is much better, but the experience of watching
television in the US is drastically worse.

~~~
irrational
If you are seeing commercials, you are doing it wrong.

~~~
UpperBodyEimi
I'm confused by this, how do you avoid commercials. From watching the off NFL
game there's even like pre-commercial commercials. "Brought to you by <some
american car company> and <drink> the official drink of <whatever> and
McDonalds - I'm loving it".

~~~
jki275
tivo, netflix, amazon prime, hulu, etc.

I don't watch network tv anymore. Well, I don't actually watch TV at all, but
you get the picture.

~~~
UpperBodyEimi
I don't know about Tivo, but are all of the rest of these not available in
Europe...?

~~~
jki275
Well, I'm using Tivo just to refer to any timeshifting device, there are
plenty. I thought the others were available in some form in EU, but I could be
wrong.

------
TuringNYC
A lot depends on your particulars. I'm a minority and the US is great because
I can earn opportunities my relatives in some other countries would not be
allowed. In some other countries, your ethnicity/background/religion would get
in the way far more than in the US.

This is not to say we don't have room for improvement, we do. Just that we're
more meritocratic than certain other first world countries. I know this just
comparing experiences, stories, outcomes from many friends, cousins, co-
workers in other countries. (Also, I've lived overseas for work many years and
got to see things firsthand.)

Is it a grind? Yes. Stressful? Yes. But meritocracies [wherever you are on the
spectrum] are stressful because you are competing for outcomes rather than
being born into them.

...And then there is US healthcare. I don't know _what_ to say about that...

~~~
Improvotter
> In some other countries, your ethnicity/background/religion would get in the
> way far more than in the US.

I completely disagree. I'm from Europe and applied to a few American-based
companies and they all had these ridiculous forms related to anti-
discrimination and the like. Is it that big of a problem in the US? That's
whay I'm asking myself when I have to fill in those forms. Why do you have to
know my ethnicity? Why do people in the US _constantly_, and I mean
CONSTANTLY, talk about their origins? Literally no one cares in Europe, but
it's always said in the US. "Native-american btw", "african-american btw",
etc. I personally think this is an issue in the US, but it isn't that big of
an issue in Europe.

> This is not to say we don't have room for improvement, we do. Just that
> we're more meritocratic than certain other first world countries.

I personally think that this is an illusion. Europe is in my opinion a lot
more meritocratic than the US from my visits. I think the US is very
hypocritical when it talks about immigrants as the whole of the US is made of
immigrants, just all from different generations. Europe doesn't currently have
a problem with building a wall to keep the Mexicans out or anything.

~~~
freshm087
_Europe doesn 't currently have a problem with building a wall to keep the
Mexicans out or anything._

This is plainly not true. EU has a lot of its own walls. It's just the fact
that it lacks long land border with countries from which major migration flows
originate is what makes it a lesser topic for debates.

Why do you think migrants coming from the Middle East prefer to cross Aegean
sea, instead of going by land? Because land border is all fences, barbed wire,
and even landmines with not a single gap.

And limiting migration is very hot political issue in many EU countries
currently.

~~~
close04
> and even landmines with not a single gap

Really? Are you talking about the landmines in Croatia that weren't fully
cleared after the 1990s Balkan war? People were actually providing maps with
the approximate locations of the fields so they can be safely bypassed.

You make it sound like Europe is planting mines to keep migrants out. If the
reaction of a small minority of European countries (2-3) seems exaggerated
when faced with over 1 million (!) immigrants, then the fact that over 7000
people [0] were killed at the US-Mexico border just over the past 20 years
should really shock you to the core.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_deaths_along_the_Mexic...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_deaths_along_the_Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_border)

~~~
infinite_luck
On that wikipedia page you linked, the 7000 (or 10000 since 1994) deaths are
from all combined sources. The vast majority of those seem to be from exposure
to the elements (for instance hypothermia is one of the most common causes of
death) or accidents. If you read the part of that page that talks about Border
Agents' use of force, around 17 deaths are listed, with an additional 10 left
disabled. Your use of that source is a misunderstanding at best or dishonest
at worst.

~~~
close04
Which is no different from the landmines that "Europeans" (one country) "use"
(still have them after an atrocious war) to keep migrants out. This was my
point.

It felt like a "whatabout" reaction and no effort was made to remove the
impression that mines are actually employed with the purpose of keeping
migrants out.

~~~
infinite_luck
I understand. I wasn't supporting the person you were arguing against, just
pointing out that the US Border Patrol hasn't killed thousands of migrants.

------
keiferski
As an American who has lived in Europe for 5+ years: the single biggest issue
with the States is that everything is filtered through a money-first
mentality.

Reading a book? It better be nonfiction, because fiction “isn’t real” and
won’t help you get ahead. Writing a book? It’s only a success if it’s a best-
seller. Studying a new language? Only worth it if you can monetize it somehow.
Hate your job? Not a problem if your salary is high enough.

This baseline mentality underlies everything and injects a market in to places
where it doesn’t belong. Europe certainly has its own issues, but at the very
least it allows for the possibility that life isn’t primarily a series of
financial decisions.

~~~
frontloadpro
Is this a real thing? My life is my job, family, side projects, and fun.

I don't know where you lived, but none of the people I know, Engineers and
programmers think that they should be reading non fiction instead of playing
video games.

~~~
auiya
> none of the people I know, Engineers and programmers think that they should
> be reading non fiction instead of playing video games.

Worth noting, playing video games has also been monetized.

------
creaghpatr
The linked blog is by a notorious America-hater Umair Haque, almost all of his
pieces are slammed for similar reasons you see in this comments section. It's
hate bait, nothing more. (I recommend "Why the Anglo World is Collapsing" /s)

Take a look at his other work to get an idea of how seriously you should take
this guy: [https://eand.co/@umairh](https://eand.co/@umairh)

~~~
Tor3
I cannot understand why you would call it hate bait.

[but please look at the actual article, not the link in the header· NB: I have
no knowledge about the author other than that article. But the article is
what's being discussed here.]

He is, for example, pointing out that history shows that the way to progress
is by "lifting one another up, not keeping anyone else down" and rejecting the
"I rise by pulling you down" philosophy, which is exactly the reasoning of the
groups that are currently destabilizing factors in some Europan countries.

In other words - it's the opposite of hate bait.

~~~
creaghpatr
Cmon. Take this passage, right at the beginning:

>There is a myth of exceptionalism in America that prevents it from looking
outward, and learning from the world. It is made up of littler myths about
greed being good, the weak deserving nothing, society being an arena, not a
lever, for the survival of the fittest — and America is busy recounting those
myths, not learning from the world, in slightly weaker (Democrats) or stronger
(Republicans) forms.

He makes a bunch of accusative statements that are _intentionally_ designed to
provoke bipartisan outrage, hence clicks and shares on forums like Hacker
News. It's absolutely hate-bait.

------
matthieubrg
It all comes from the individualism and egocentrism and bullying of US
culture. "It is made up of littler myths about greed being good, the weak
deserving nothing, society being an arena, not a lever, for the survival of
the fittest". You've been raised and thought to only think and work for
yourself and consider your interests first...Until someone gets cancer and you
have to launch a GoFundMe campaign and hope it'll not ruin your entire family.
We sure have a lot of issues in Europe and by no mean are perfect societies or
have the greatest companies. But at least we help each other, we support the
less fortunate, we protect the weakest. And that's how you improve quality of
life, life expectancy, a build a better society overall. I'm happy to give a
significant part of my income to the government if it helps people survive and
live better. And what you don't actually realize is that people are doing the
same for you, because you might one day need it. Now why don't we have as many
unicorns as you do in the U.S.? Because we're a bit more precautious and risk-
averse, it's true.We don't go as fast and as strong as you. We first think 'Is
this possible? safe? legal? right?' and then go on making the thing. While you
just go, build it and ask questions later... which is an amazing fearless
mindset which allowed you to accomplish incredible thing but which also leads
to Facebook fucking up all over the world, Amazon treating their employees
like slaves, or Boeing killing 350+ people because a 2nd safety system is too
expensive.

~~~
stirfrykitty
Fantastic comments and very true. This echoes my time spent living in Europe.

As an "American" with a British father, and having lived overseas for much of
my life, I still value European social mores and overall cultural far more
than my American side. If I could only convince my wife to move to somewhere
besides Texas. Vermont is first on the list, followed by anywhere in south
rural England or Spain.

Europeans tend to not get starry-eyed like Americans. I don't need or want a
sports car and big-assed house. It does nothing for me other than put me
behind the power curve financially. I'd rather have universal healthcare, 6
weeks paid holiday and the ability to travel cheaply in the EU bloc.

------
exelius
Americans don’t travel. If we did, we wouldn’t buy the myth of American
exceptionalism.

But then, we are largely becoming a country controlled by global financial
interests rather than the population. Money is the deciding factor in our
elections, and the most concentrated forms of wealth out there are sovereign
wealth funds and large multinational corporations whose executives are largely
above the law. Which means you don’t need to be an American citizen to have a
voice in the political process that affects the quality of life for hundreds
of millions of us.

We need publicly funded elections. Otherwise, corporate and foreign money with
zero interest in the wellbeing of American citizens will dominate the politics
agenda (just like they have for the last 20-ish years).

~~~
jlawson
Money is not the deciding factor in American elections. Hillary Clinton spent
twice as much as Donald Trump during the 2016 campaign.

~~~
username223
How does that follow? A charismatic demagogue won against a singularly
uninspiring lifetime politician, despite receiving fewer votes (because
Electoral College). Money isn't the _only_ factor, but it's still one of the
largest.

~~~
jlawson
"One of the largest" is different from "the deciding factor"; let's keep those
goalposts pinned down please.

------
CoolGuySteve
This article is blog spam, here's the actual link: [https://eand.co/what-do-
you-call-a-world-that-cant-learn-fro...](https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-
world-that-cant-learn-from-itself-58ae28cefd23)

~~~
maggit
I disagree. The article quotes and links to three different articles (the
first of which is the one you have pointed out) and ties them together. I
agree that it is not the most substantial post, but I wouldn't call it
blogspam.

~~~
Tor3
I read the original and didn't get that there were more substance elsewhere.
In the end I found it pretty contentless. The link that CoolGuySteve (and
seibelj) pointed to is where the real article is.

------
matttproud
As an American living abroad, I can subjectively confirm what the author
writes. I have a hard time keeping a straight face when returning.

~~~
wayouteast
When my company sent me to South America to work, it was pretty revealing how
American company culture is toxic.

People from the home office in NY were literally complaining about South
Americans getting too many vacation days, 1 hour lunches, and a lot of other
perks that are guaranteed by law. All of this despite the south american
employees making 30% of the NY salary. The head of HR complained about
guaranteed 1 hour lunches for the employees because "she ate lunch at her desk
working everyday". They were jealous because it was only a 10 minute walk to a
gorgeous beach from the SA office.

I was involved in a lot of discussions with HQ about the office and it became
abundantly clear, that all the HR and execs wanted to keep the salaries of
South American's low or else they would have "too good of a life" and "live
like kings" if they paid them the NY salary, despite things like computers and
cars costing like 2x the cost of USA. and while rent was cheaper, the
difference in rent was only like 24k a year (1k for an apartment vs 3k). I was
still living on my NY salary, and would get constant criticism from the home
office that I was living too well, despite all the benefits (access to the
beach, nice weather, etc) were free.

It seemed like the entire office thought everything in south america was
pennies on the dollar. In reality to lead an equivalent life as the USA
(modern apartment, nice neighborhood, eat at nice restaurants, have a nice
car), its not really _that_ much cheaper, like 20-30% cheaper. Not 66%
cheaper.

Anyways, what really opened my eyes was that was _south america_. I think we
think of South America as being underdeveloped, but my life was very nice
there, and it was very very difficult to justify going back to the USA.

And it really opened my eyes, how blatantly envious American HR employees can
get when they see the more relaxed lifestyles of other countries and instead
of improving themselves, they seek to tear others down.

~~~
stirfrykitty
Great comments and very, very true. I've worked overseas for a number of years
and can vouch for what you say.

Americans are too driven. They don't know how to relax. Most Americans don't
even take their full holiday time.

What I've done to combat the BS with employers is to set the bar at the
interview. I tell them they will get a solid 8 hours of work from me, M-F,
730-430 or 8-5. I don't waver on this, as I have a family. I don't work nights
or weekends. I don't accept calls after hours unless it's something that is
dramatically critical. Don't call me to bitch about the email server being
slow. The shit's in the cloud and I have no control over it anyway. It can
wait.

I firmly, yet nicely "demand" an hourly wage in lieu of salary to ensure that
I get paid for every second I work. Should I have to work overtime in an
emergency, I should be compensated. This all sounds like some harsh demands on
my part, but if I don't do it for myself, who will? I have a union mentality
towards work because I know that no employer has my best interests at heart.

I tell people all the time to negotiate their own employment. HR departments
are willing to work with you within reason, but you have to ask. One way of
almost forcing companies to work your way is asking for an hourly salary.
Quite a few will comply. No one wants to pay overtime. It's costly. I don't
want to work overtime. It's a kind of let's check each other. If I cannot
accomplish something in 8 hours, there is always tomorrow. I don't check email
after work. In fact, I refuse to put my work email on my personal devices
unless you pay a stipend. My device is mine, not yours. You have to pay to
play. Yet no one stands up for themselves. Almost no one. You get what you are
willing to fight for. And before someone says, well, you deserve to get fired
or not hired... why? Because I'm willing to be my own union and "demand" my
own terms? It's possible. Not always, but unless one tries, one gets what one
gets. I tell the people all the time here, "stop taking your laptop home at
night. Are you being paid overtime? If you're not, don't work overtime.
Negotiate better pay and working conditions."

------
djanogo
One constant thing in every country is there is always a narrative among
certain percentage of population about how shitty their country is, America is
no different, usually the people who feel this way are not nationalists.

If you immigrated to US from third world country you would know how amazing
this country is.

It always be your choice to live how happily you want to live, you can quit
wanting to climb the ladder, you can quit watching news telling you how shitty
country is, you can quit watching TV constantly telling you to upgrade your
house, car, phone etc.

~~~
seszett
> _If you immigrated to US from third world country you would know how amazing
> this country is._

Yes, _compared to the third world country you come from_. But that works for
pretty much any other western country. It doesn't help comparing them between
each other.

~~~
braythwayt
Much the same as saying, “If you were unemployed and homeless, you’d know how
amazing this job in an Amazon warehouse is.

Look at how many people would rather work here than starve!”

Very true. And yet, there are better jobs with better working conditions. This
is not to say that the USA is the Amazon Warehouse of developed countries, but
you need to compare jobs to jobs, and developed countries to developed
countries.

------
11thEarlOfMar
Given the number of Americans and the breadth of places they can live, you're
not going to be able to generalize this sentiment. There is Poor as in lacking
wealth, there is Poor as in lacking quality, and Poor as in lacking community.
Which are we talking about?

There is a persistent social churn in the US. It is a side effect of what we
consider progress. Progress is generally an outcome of building businesses
that emerge, grow and die. Employees that are valuable to one business may not
be valuable to the next, and that transition takes them from being prosperous
to being poor and struggling.

One example is the shift from a primarily industrial economy to a primarily
service economy. All the factory workers who provided for and raised families
in the 50s - 70s came into jeopardy in the 80s-90s as US companies off-shored
manufacturing. The families that could not make the transition suffered. They
had to buy based on price and low cost won, in spite of the quality.

At the same time, new companies with different business models emerged and the
workers of those companies prospered. Consider the semiconductor industry. In
the 70s and into the 80s, the US dominated. Then, again, the technology spread
globally to Europe and Asia and US fabrication facilities shut down, families
were again in jeopardy.

Today, the wealth creation and prosperity is centered on technology companies,
which dominate lists of the most valuable companies globally. It is likely
that as in the past, these firms will ultimately give way to global
competition, and their employees will need to shift.

------
chrismeller
> There is a myth of exceptionalism in America that prevents it from looking
> outward

Which is frankly such a common sentiment from every European I’ve ever met
that it’s become almost a cliche. Perhaps we are a bit arrogant but at some
point don’t you have to realize that maybe you’re doing the exact same thing
in reverse?

All the things he listed out as being of lower quality are completely
subjective. The food is worse? Compared to where? Yes, you can get a lot more
variety of crappy fast food... nothing is preventing you from NOT stopping at
McDonald’s though. It’s like saying all furniture is crappier in Sweden
because IKEA is everywhere...

~~~
goalieca
I do think quality of food and dairy is a problem in the USA and it has been a
difficult thing for me everytime i have travelled there. When i've been to
europe i've found the quality and preparation to be very good and consistent
everywhere (big cities and small towns) but not always a lot of variety.

~~~
chrismeller
Like I said, quality of food varies. No matter where you are that is true, not
every restaurant is the same.

I’m not sure what you mean about the quality of dairy? US milk, eggs, and
cheese are no different than any of the milk, eggs, and cheese of the same
variety anywhere else in the world I’ve been.

~~~
anothermouse
There is huge variation in Dairy! French Milk (was) terrible, only UHT widely
available, though fresh is now quite common. US milk is nothing like as good
as British milk for freshness/flavour (though the latter is subjective).

US eggs are refrigerated, as salmonella is so prevalent. Not so in UK, where
they are guaranteed salmonella free (nowadays 'thanks' to Edwina Curry)

And Cheese? Really - I'm fairly sure there is no equivalent of a nice ripe
epoisses widely available in the US. Sure, cheap cheddar is just like
Monterray Jack, but....

I have lived in the US for 8 years, France/Luxembourg for 2 and the UK for the
rest.

~~~
burfog
There is no nice ripe epoisses anywhere in the world. If you do actually want
cheese that smells like feet, perhaps as mosquito bait, you can get that in
the USA. (it can not be nice however) Most supermarkets will stock Limburger,
kept cold and double-wrapped with foil to avoid offending the shoppers.

We also have both kinds of edible cheese, mild cheddar and mozzarella.

------
dsfyu404ed
Many, dare I say the majority, of Americans don't have any desire to have the
European way of life, culture or institutions. We like heavily processed
Walmart peanut butter on our goddamn Wonderbread made from GMO wheat with
jelly sweetened with corn syrup. We like our Budweiser and $10 "Chinese"
buffet. We like driving our cheaply registered, insured, and fueled cars. We'd
prefer to sit in traffic than wait for a train.

Sure our healthcare could be better but we're working on it and pretty much
nobody expects the current situation to persist for all that long.

I and millions of other people like out way of life. I get that the author is
entitled to his opinion but my opinion is that his opinion is crap. I hate to
be this guy but if he likes Europe that much he should move there, or at least
move to a state that's more like it.

~~~
cbcoutinho
> _pretty much nobody expects the current situation to persist for all that
> long._

I envy your optimism

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Give it 10yr for most of the old farts in congress to wash out.

Once it's possible for a republican congressmen to admit that Canada has it
better without having the RNC fund whoever wants to primary them things will
change.

------
pcr910303
Well, the funny thing is that ‘America’ _is_ the standard in _lots_ of
countries, even in places where many things are superior to the US. I’ve been
to the US a few times, and the experience was abysmal. I didn’t expect 1Gbps
public Wifis in public transportation (well, we have them), but... I mean,
super dirty subways and buses that don’t go much (moving only with public
transportation and foot was a painful experience), super-slow LTE/WLAN speeds
(I mean... weren’t they supposed to be called ‘LTE’?), basically non-existent
medical system - (going to the doctor takes a whole day?? We go to the doctor
in lunchtime..., and super high prices even with medical insurance), and my
list goes on and on.

However in South Korea everybody’s saying.. ‘Hey let’s do it the _American_
way!’

The world is totally insane.

~~~
arx1422
" I’ve been to the US a few times" \- Clearly then you are a registered expert
on the United States socio-economic system :)

------
i_am_nomad
Odd that he includes Paris in that list of superior places. My two weeks in
Paris last summmer left me shocked at how filthy it is, how crowded the public
transit is, and how unremarkable (compared to expectations). the food is. And
I say that as a San Franciscan.

~~~
degrews
See Paris Syndrome
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome)

------
throwaway400
From the actual post:

> In London, Paris, Berlin, I hop on the train, head to the cafe — it’s the
> afternoon, and nobody’s gotten to work until 9am, and even then, maybe not
> until 10 — order a carefully made coffee and a newly baked croissant, do
> some writing, pick up some fresh groceries, maybe a meal or two, head home —
> now it’s 6 or 7, and everyone else has already gone home around 5 — and
> watch something interesting, maybe a documentary by an academic, the BBC’s
> Blue Planet, or a Swedish crime-noir.

I mean, if you are a Europhile of course the US is going to suck. You can
always move to Quebec I suppose? No train to hop on, though.

------
lumberjack
I am European, but I understand why America is the way it is. America is a
country of strangers trying to coexist. They cannot agree on what way of life
is the best so they cannot have strong convictions, and thus they cannot have
government programs as intrusive as countries in Europe. All the good things
in our European countries come at the cost of choice. Yes, we have universal
healthcare, but it is mandatory and you have no say in the matter. This is
fine if everyone is convinced that it is the best solution, but what if they
are not?

~~~
Tor3
In most European countries you also have access to private healthcare that you
(or your employer) have to pay for.

------
wildermuthn
Obviously the quoted author has never lived an upper-class American life.
Context is important when speaking about America. We have the third-largest
population in the world and a larger degree in inequality than most of the
countries in our GDP-bracket. There is no better place to live in the world if
you are intelligent, determined, healthy, and ideally, rich and well-
connected. As for the justice of such a situation, well, this is the perennial
American debate: is inequality actually a good thing, or are we in a zero-sum
game where wealth is a pie that never grows? See Paul Graham’s essays, as
always.

------
lr4444lr
There are some objective problems fairly raised here (e.g. quality of public
transit) but set against the rest of the world, the net immigration numbers
simply suggest we are not all as bad as the author makes out.

------
apexalpha
This won't do well on a forum where all Americans are in the top 10% of social
class.

Also, don't forget that Europe as a whole is poorer than the US. Sure, it's
better to be poor in the EU than in the US but the top class can go much, much
higher. A €80k salary is really on the higher end here in Europe, while
Americans in IT seems to sometimes start on it.

Even though his points regarding GMO are too extreme, I think food quality and
health might be the only 2 things the US is worse at than the EU. But again,
you don't notice this if you're in rich in the US.

------
johan_larson
Well, yeah, the Europeans have good work-life balance. But that comes at a
price. European rates for software developers are way below what they are the
US. Also, there are far fewer big opportunities. There simply aren't any
FAANG-tier companies in Europe. They're all American, and there are a few
players in that league in Asia. But Europe doesn't have any.

------
drcode
The days when typical food and drink in Europe is better than in the US are
also mostly gone. Whenever I go to a fancy restaurant in, say Frankfurt, it
doesn't measure up to a comparable restaurant in my home town of Chicago (with
the exception of ethnic German restaurants, which are often pretty good)

Same with coffee: Twenty years ago German coffee shops had superior coffee to
American ones, but whereas American coffee has vastly improved, European shops
have in general been content to remain static in quality.

------
chvid
Because their lives by global standard are actually very very good?

------
Debugreality
If you look at America like a giant company then the American dream was
somewhat alike to company vision statement. Having a vision statement like
that seems to have helped a lot in the past, perhaps better than companies
with no vision. One of the biggest issues with these kind of top level visions
is they are pretty much set forever and even if they are not working anymore
it is extremely hard to replace them with something else.

But perhaps it's time to start trying?

------
eqdw
> Everything I consume in the States is of a vastly, abysmally lower quality.
> Every single thing. The food, the media, little things like fashion, art,
> public spaces, the emotional context, the work environment, and life in
> general make me less sane, happy, alive

This is more a reflection on the author than a reflection on America. There
are plenty of extremely high quality things available here and it's not
America's fault if OP settles for junk instead

------
coleifer
> Were we thinking of ourselves most of the time? Or were we thinking of what
> we could do for others, of what we could pack into the stream of life?

That final question he's quoting is from the alcoholics anonymous literature.
I wonder if he knows that?

Another good one:

> Selfishness - self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our
> troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking,
> and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows...

------
xutopia
I worked a few years in Paris and then in Canada... often for American
companies. Even if he exaggerates a bit the points many of my colleagues who
did similar stints is that "In Europe you work to live. In North America you
live to work."

And don't get me started about food... many Americans think whipped cream is
that sweetened white colored oil in a can.

------
JaceLightning
Are they really? I can own a 6000 square foot house for $2,500/ month in most
of the country. Try doing that in Europe.

~~~
ab71e5
I mean you totally can, in eastern Europe. But you're missing the point of the
article, which is that Europeans supposedly enjoy a more 'rich' life in other
ways than material goods. Although I do not fully agree, most of Europe is not
that different.

------
RickJWagner
Why, just look at Mick Jagger!

This week he could have used the fine health care provided by the UK's
government system. Instead, he opted to pay for service in an American
hospital.

What's wrong with Mick? Doesn't he recognize superior quality in healthcare
when he sees it?

------
DamienB
I don't think the author understands how extraordinary his life is. His
complaint is essentially that there's nothing satisfying on his trello board?
That's a great problem to have. It's a good thing he has clean water, an
education, an aptitude and the opportunity to participate in the upper
echelons of a technological revolution. He isn't living under war, famine or a
communist dystopia where his options would be far more limited. He's in
relatively good health and perhaps he hasn't yet suffered the extraordinary
personal losses we'll all face as our loved ones grow old, sick and die. It's
a good time for him. It's a fallacy to extrapolate one's mental state to the
entire nation. We are living under the greatest conditions in all of human
history. If you can't be satisfied here then by all means go on a soul
searching adventure and figure yourself out. It's your journey, it's your time
on Earth and it's literally never been better.

------
dejaime
First world problems meme is taking on a whole new level

------
JohnBooty
Don't get me wrong; vast numbers of Americans _do_ have plenty of experience
with the world outside America.

The simple (and unfortunate) answer is that because America is geographically
isolated, many Americans literally don't see how folks in other countries
live.

Also, thanks to the Cold War, we spent half a century being indoctrinated to
believe that socialism is evil and capitalism equals freedom and that's why
the American way of life is the best one.

~~~
sacheendra
I wouldn't necessarily say vast number of americans have plenty of experience
outside the US.

For example, only 42% have a passport.
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-
sh...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-share-of-
americans-holding-a-passport-has-increased-dramatically-in-recent-years-
infographic/)

~~~
JohnBooty
I'm not sure that number tells the entire story. There's certainly a positive
correlation between "percentage of citizens with passports" and "cluefulness
about the rest of the world" but I don't think it's a simple, linear one.

In terms of understanding another country, I'm sure we can agree that there's
simply no substitute for living there, working there, and speaking the
language for an extended period of time.

In a very distant second place, there's having friends, family, and colleagues
in other countries. I'm middle aged and my grandparents live in the
Netherlands. Unfortunately I've not been able to travel there, but I do have
several decades of secondhand experience with their healthcare system so I, at
the very least, know there are viable alternatives to what we have in the U.S.
in terms of healthcare and lifestyle in general thanks to them and my close
friends and colleagues from other countries.

In an even more distant third place, there's tourism. I wouldn't call it a
waste of time, but I don't think a week or two of sightseeing and
Instagramming it up teaches the traveler much about life in that country.

------
JoshTko
I think this Vox video explains it well. TLDR American TV does a good job
distracting people from real issues in order to keep funneling funds to the
rich. My guess is European elites are catching on to American tactics and are
following suit.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNineSEoxjQ&t=100s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNineSEoxjQ&t=100s)

~~~
netsharc
I feel like the UK is there or close to it... the elite managed to fool half
the population to vote for economic self-destruction (with a bus!), and hiding
behind it is a future with less regulation, which means more chance for
exploitation...

------
Mugwort
I found this rather satisfying answer.

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as
an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."

\- John Steinbeck

Are you temporarily embarrassed?

You may not realise it, but you could be a temporarily embarrassed
millionaire. Do you plan to someday in the future have more money? Are you
concerned that your taxes are too high, because someday you might pay too much
tax. Do you ride the bus only because this year you can’t afford that luxury
car you’re going to have? Do you live pay cheque to pay cheque like most
people just because you haven’t had your lucky break.

You aren’t rich and it’s very unlikely you ever will be. The economic and
power systems of this planet are not designed for you to get rich. The
American dream doesn’t exist and it never did. Stop being a temporarily
embarrassed millionaire and just be a person.

------
Cyclone_
But he doesn't mention where he's from?

~~~
maggit
The author seems to be from Dallas, Texas, but the quote in the title is from
another post: [https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-world-that-cant-learn-
fro...](https://eand.co/what-do-you-call-a-world-that-cant-learn-from-
itself-58ae28cefd23)

------
aantix
In a hyper-capitalistic society, money will be disproportionately allocated to
the winners of whatever the society values at that time.

And that disparity causes agony and longing for the have-nots, the hope for
better conditions. Some rise, some don't. But it's a constant wrestling match
of allocations.

But the positive byproduct of disproportionate money allocation is innovation.
That the Haves are able to accelerate their capitalistic interests because of
their monetary rewards.

Suffering and disparity are functions of hyper-capitalism, innovation is
another byproduct of that system, and no one embraces that system more than
America.

~~~
plutonorm
The "hard work pays off" delusion is woven into the identity of America,
making it extremely difficult for the individual to shake off despite all
evidence to the contrary. It's convenient for those who benefit from the hard
work of others. They can expect hard work, without actually providing much
incentive.

------
fmdud
The book "Capitalist Realism" by Mark Fisher is very, very appropriate here

------
jfasi
We live in a society

------
miguelrochefort
Is this satire?

------
jim_and_derrick
Might not be the typical american, consider myself pretty aware of both me, my
fam, and surroundings. Maybe it's all the drugs i did in college but 'chasing
the dream is not for me anymore'. My mind was opened to things other than
buying cars/clothes/homes, watching the latest shows etc. Hell I still get
hours of enjoyment playing old SNES games on my laptop haha.

My family has carved out a little slice of life for ourselves and we are
happy. Sure it's hard when you go on social medias (like the wife) and see
'friends' flying around the world, doing 'cool' things. meanwhile we are in
midwest working every day trying to raise a little baby. Sometimes it's hard
for folks to not get jealous. Let those millenials travel the world on their
parents dime. I know people taking 30 day honeymoons going on global
excursions. My wife and I paid for our entire honeymoon and spent a week in
southern cal...

If you are able to ignore the outside signals, focus on what makes YOU happy.
I have done that and apparently have found success in life. I've even gotten
lucky with some jobs. Jobs i decided to stick with instead of jumping ship.

------
irrational
>I planned on waking up early and revisiting said collection, but slept
through my alarm, going from a planned 8 or so hours of sleep to almost 10.

This person and their DHH (dear honorary husband?) obviously don't have any
kids. I'm starting to see where her idealized view of life in Europe is coming
from. I've been to Europe many times and she is clearly living in some sort of
upper class bubble. Why don't upper class Europeans understand how unrealistic
their lives are?

------
roenxi
I'd like to believe the hallmark of a truly great society is that they are
capable of shamelessly copying good ideas from elsewhere.

I'm not sure this idea of 'everything [in the US being] lower quality' is
going to hold up to close inspection though. He cites life expectancy; that
statistic is probably going to suffer from Simpson's Paradox - it is
reasonable to expect that the better the poor and are treated, the lower
average life expectancy will be. It would be easy to have great life
expectancy by raising the cost of living to be so high the poor are all forced
to leave.

It isn't to say that America is all sunshine and roses; there are a lot of
problems in how people are rewarded and punished for their choices. But it
isn't obviously worse and looking in from the outside it does seem to be
easier to be the change you want to see in America.

There is also the irony that these ideas aren't being communicated on a world-
leading European message board using world-class European software. It isn't
that telling, it just made me smile.

~~~
EliRivers
Is this not being hosted on a Linux box somewhere? Sure, it may well not be,
but Linux is common enough that it could be.

~~~
roenxi
I can claim that for the list if you want. Torvalds is American and lives in
Oregon; most of the major Linux contributors were sponsored by American
companies if I recall correctly. Red Hats and IBMs of the world.

America must be doing something right.

~~~
EliRivers
_America must be doing something right._

It is indeed. And a lot wrong too.

This that you said; "It would be easy to have great life expectancy by raising
the cost of living to be so high the poor are all forced to leave." I don't
understand. Is that how France did it?

~~~
roenxi
I don't know anything about France except that they are a good case study in
nuclear power and they are currently rioting in the streets.

Maybe? I mean, rioting on the streets could be linked to high costs of living
and I wouldn't be surprised, or it could be something else entirely.

Anyway, the point is you can't just compare life expectancy and have it mean
something. It is completely plausible that life expectancy could be higher
even if the medical system is worse.

