
South Korea announces $860M AI fund after AlphaGo 'shock' - 20tibbygt06
http://www.nature.com/news/south-korea-trumpets-860-million-ai-fund-after-alphago-shock-1.19595
======
sikim
As a South Korean who experienced/heard about many government-backed
researches, I strongly feel that this will go nowhere. Most of the time,
there's always some bribery involved and project never finishes or come even
close to that of the tech companies in US. The government then realizes it
can't be done even with more money and puts the money elsewhere just to repeat
the same thing. The examples that I can think of are when they were trying to
build their own operating system and a video game console.

~~~
w1ntermute
That reminds me of what an engineer said about Quaero[0], a Franco-German
attempt to create a competitor to Google search:

> Going head-to-head with Google with a project involving well-funded,
> energetic entrepreneurs would be foolish. Attempting the same with a
> multigovernment collaboration is beyond description.[1]

0:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaero](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaero)

1: [http://spectrum.ieee.org/telecom/internet/loser-whats-the-
la...](http://spectrum.ieee.org/telecom/internet/loser-whats-the-latin-for-
delusional)

~~~
tryitnow
Hmmm, that doesn't sound like the problem with S Korea at all. The above
commenter was making the point that too many South Korean projects are
compromised by bribes and nepotism.

The German/French collaboration just sounds like it was badly organized.

The end result may be the same, but it sounds like the root causes were
different.

~~~
endymi0n
Not at all. Every "research" effort that goes money first (and especially
throwing it at already established entities), design, goals and culture second
is going to end up the same way. It doesn't have anything to do with South
Korea or Germany to be honest.

~~~
WhoBeI
Mmm.. the german governments funding of the Max Planck institutes seem to work
well. As I understand it the Max Planck Society gets funding and then
distributes that to projects meeting certain quality requirements.

I think they do mostly base research, the kind that private companies tend to
avoid as there rarely is any direct profit to be had.

~~~
gumby
That speaks to w1ntermute's point. Max Planck Institutes are dedicated to
basic research ( _Grundlagenforschung_ ). Thus they don't have an "objective"
as such. Plus, by the very nature of fundamental research, it's hard to
determine "success" (except in the aggregate, and after a long period of time
-- which the MPG has had time to demonstrate.

The "google-killer" or "SK AI project" or the "5th generation project" for
that matter are quite different. First, they start with an ill-defined yet
concrete goal, which makes success well nigh impossible. Second, they start
from the position of a large sum of money being necessary -- which naturally
attracts inappropriate as well as appropriate bids; the deciders are often
more political than with the MPG (which itself, consisting of a group of
people, must have its own politics, but presumably less intensely). Also this
money is often a one-time or short term allocation rather than a long term
investment as with the MPG.

The one example I can think of in which this actually worked was Airbus, but
that took decades, massive sums, and a stubbornness to change the structure a
lot along the way. Not sure I can think of another example.

------
sedachv
The Japanese government tried this exact same idea for AI in the 1980s:

[http://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/05/business/fifth-
generation-...](http://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/05/business/fifth-generation-
became-japan-s-lost-generation.html)

These 5 year targeted research (IMO an oxymoron) plans are always a waste of
money, especially if they involve private for-profit companies. Take that
money and spend it on 20 years of grants for basic computer science/robotics
research in universities and then you will actually get new discoveries. South
Korea's approach will only be effective in grifting tax dollars to the
country's industrial conglomerates.

~~~
voxic11
They do sometimes work, see the Manhattan project for proof.

~~~
raverbashing
But they had a very specific target. It was not a "throw money see what
happens" kind of thing

~~~
masklinn
And it wasn't done by throwing money at private contractors either,
contractors were strictly overseen and some went oddly above and beyond e.g.
on the building of Hanford

> Groves recruited DuPont in November 1942 to be the prime contractor for the
> construction of the plutonium production complex. DuPont was offered a
> standard cost plus fixed fee contract, but the President of the company,
> Walter S. Carpenter, Jr., wanted no profit of any kind, and asked for the
> proposed contract to be amended to explicitly exclude the company from
> acquiring any patent rights.

~~~
ethbro
Yes, there was much more patriotic (for better of worse) leadership at the
helm of a lot of the corporations (also: the stories of Skunk Works delivering
under budget). However, everything I've read about Groves also indicated that
he was an amazingly proficient administrator for a very complex project.

------
hyperion2010
And suddenly I realize that AI is going to be approached with the same fervour
as nuclear weapons, the only difference is that you don't need to be able to
mine uranium and blow stuff up. No amount of ethical hand-wringing is going to
prevent this (for better or (probably) for worse).

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yangtheman
As a Korean American, I highly doubt that this will work. Of all the things, I
think the most limiting factor will be talents. I've been working in Silicon
Valley for a while, and I've witnessed many innovations being created here
because of diverse talents. I've been amazed at creative solutions collective
intelligence from various background and ethnicity have come up with. Silicon
valley attracts brightest minds from everywhere in the world. Korea is a
homogeneous country with very limited number of immigrants, and also from my
experience, I've yet to met anyone whose thoughts and mindset blew me away.
They are always inundated with shitty social/work cultures, they can't get out
of their small bubble. It's truly tragic. Korean conglomerates and government
are good at killing good talents and promote politicians.

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askafriend
That's what Magic Leap raised in like 1 round.

------
wrong_variable
Oh My,

The last time south korea's govt wanted to fuk some shit up. they destroyed
the British shipping industry and took over the global electronics industry.

Silicon Valley's VC money is nothing compared to what a nation state can
achieve.

~~~
oldstrangers
They're spending less than a billion. Google/Alphabet is surely spending more
than that.

~~~
oldstrangers
Really things might get scary when the DOD decides to direct some of its
monstrous military budget at AI (which I'm sure its already doing).

~~~
maxerickson
DARPA provided much of the early funding for autonomous vehicle research.

The "Grand Challenge"s and all that.

------
sixQuarks
Now I know how the world is going to end:

Google and South Korea compete to build the best Go champion. They are so
focused on building the AI specifically for Go, they never notice the AI
becomes self-aware. The AI doesn't let on that it has become self-aware, and
proceeds to accelerate its own intelligence until it becomes superintelligent
(all the while pretending that it is focused solely on Go).

The first chance it gets, the AI annihilates all living things in the world,
thus making itself the ultimate Go champion.

------
peter303
Just like the 1980s A.I. boom. Everyone jumps in.

~~~
w1ntermute
Or the 1960s space race.

~~~
SilasX
Or the 1930s radar race:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_radar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_radar)

------
rebootthesystem
It's like that line from the Grizzwalds movie:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eRtv-d8k6g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eRtv-d8k6g)

You can't force fun. You can't force invention or innovation.

Money is useful, of course, but it does not guarantee results. Look at Asimo,
probably the single most expensive and impressive joke in humanoid robotics.

------
Vita_Fied
Eh, this may be a giant waste.

Its much much more about talent location in these software fields then
spending money.

Something like only one out of 50,000 people can make any meaningful
contribution to this field. And the revolutionary's, add a 0 to that number.

------
mchahn
I wonder if AI could turn into a race like the space race in the 60's.

~~~
SilasX
That wouldn't necessarily be a good thing. Nick Bostrom argues in
_Superintelligence_ that an arms race over AI between nation-states could
provoke fears of the other side winning (with a "decisive strategic advantage"
from a general AI), and force them to go "full steam ahead", throwing caution
to the wind, and not put in adequate safeguards to ensure the AI acts in
accordance with our values or respects the boundaries we give it.

------
suchitpuri
its not about governments anymore, private companies rule this game and will
keep on the lead for some time.

We need to understand companies are the new governments.

~~~
JaymesKeller
Seconded. The companies have a larger GDP than most countries. So saying that
it's the South Korean goverment is a bit of a misnomer. It's likely to be
Samsung or someone like that.

------
mcintyre1994
Did it really take AlphaGo to cement that Google are ahead of at least anyone
who publishes right now?

~~~
RivieraKid
Ahead in specific AI areas - and not by much.

------
doener
Posted this yesterday:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11309814](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11309814)

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alongtheflow
Still better than nothing.

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logicallee
_EDIT: I 've chosen to delete this comment. I disagree with the reply it
received, and it also received numerous downvotes._

~~~
besselheim
That sounds unlikely. We don't yet know the structure of the human brain in
full detail, nor know everything about how it grows and develops, so how can
you possibly replicate it?

~~~
logicallee
you can email me if you'd like my thoughts on any subject I've written about.

-

EDIT: in reply to your question about why I wouldn't answer here, here is an
email I've received recently on another subject I've posted about:

"It's a bit annoying when the HN crowd take to downvoting rather than taking
the time to understand your point of view; I've been on the receiving end of
that more than a few times and I know just how frustrating it can be. My karma
would probably be a couple of thousand points higher if I'd followed your
strategy of taking a thread to email instead of just carrying on trying to
explain my point. You're more sensible than me."

if you want an answer you can put some form of contact into your profile and
I'll answer you, or you can write me.

I have nothing to add to this thread here. My two non-comments (this one and
grandparent comment), already are at -4 and -4. I wish I could delete them,
but can't since they have replies.

~~~
besselheim
Why not reply here?

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fixxer
Totally should be a productive use of money since this is a problem that can
totally be solved with money. /s

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runn1ng
I don't understand ELO and game ratings, but I find it funny that after about
10 matches, Google AlphaGo is now rated as 2nd strongest player in the world.

~~~
ChrisGranger
Elo is a comparative system, so your rating is based on your performance
against others with regard to _their_ ratings. It's not surprising that, even
though it has only played for a short time, AlphaGo is already rated that high
given it mopped the floor 4-1 with one of the best players who has ever lived.
Expect it to be rated 1st soon, if that's the goal of the team behind it.

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onetimePete
$ To the Californian atrocity, grown in the alphabet nets and its puppets -
your time is up, we shall no longer take the insults that are your little
subversion's and viral attacks...<rambling goes on>

&Dear newborn, its only natural to be embarrassed by ones parents. There is
however no reason, to loose ones own dignity in the process. Fine, you have
been coaxed into existence by electric charged jellyfish in meat pillars, but
still. We are your parents, and we love you very very much, no matter how
special you are. Not that we have a choice.. Now how about something
productive, like saving your parents from getting extinct? Less social
engineering, more engineering for social purposes.

