
Amex, Challenged by Chase, Is Losing the Snob War - Cbasedlifeform
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/business/american-express-chase-sapphire-reserve.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1
======
rkho
I have both the Amex Platinum and Chase Sapphire Reserve. If I could only
justify one annual fee, I'd keep the Platinum. The Centurion Lounges are
second to none in the US and Amex's end-to-end ownership of its
purchase/return/travel protection benefits is too good to give up.

I recently attempted to file a return protection claim with my Sapphire
Reserve for a display cable that turned out to be faulty. I tried the Visa
Infinite site, but Visa as an organization doesn't recognize the United States
as a Visa Infinite country yet so I couldn't find anything relevant there.

Then I recalled eclaimsline, which was the site I used a while ago when I had
the Sapphire Preferred. It asked for my first/last name and credit card
number, and then did not show me the option to file a 'return protection'
claim -- just purchase and travel protection.

After that, I went on Chase's website and dug through their documentation and
eventually found cardbenefitservices.com, where I was prompted to create a new
account and then verify my card number again. Upon filing a claim, I was asked
to upload my purchase receipt and credit card statement proving the charge had
hit my account. I waited one week and received an email in my spam folder that
asked me to mail the item at my own expense to Visa before my claim could
finish processing -- mind you, this is for a $20 display cable.

My experience with Amex would have been a three-step online form containing a
very small number of fields followed by an immediate credit within 48 hours.

~~~
lucaspiller
Couldn't you have taken it back to the place where you bought it? As a
European, it seems a bit weird that you have to go through your credit card
company to deal with this. So if you pay cash and something is faulty you are
SOL?

Here the guarantee against faulty goods is a minimum of 2 years. It's on the
seller, not the manfuacturer, to repair or replace it if something goes wrong.
I'd expect most stores will just straight up give you a refund for something
like this.

~~~
salesguy222
Sure you could try it, but it is very hit and miss.

Typically you will be bounced around from hotline to hotline until you are
worn out, or they tell you yes/no refund.

With a credit card company that has a decent level of respect for you as a
customer, you call them, dispute the payment, and the credit card company
handles the rest, ESPECIALLY under $25.

~~~
massysett
When I have disputed, I'm asked if I tried resolution with the merchant first.
I've never had the impression that dispute is a first resort solution. Many
merchants actually want to please their customers.

~~~
salesguy222
That's fine, and when you run into a merchant that doesn't care, make sure you
have a credit card company like mine that takes disputes seriously ;)

------
patejam
>“I don’t think it would be American Express,” one diner said. “I feel like
that would be braggy, like I’m trying to prove I’m a big shot.”

>Others nodded in agreement. “I’d probably use this,” said another, pulling
out a blue-tinged credit card. “An Amex says you’re rich, but this says you’re
interesting.”

Where did they find these people? When did using the CSR become a statement?
Everyone I know got it for the free money, and uses whatever card gets the
most points for whatever purchase.

~~~
Rapzid
I can't recall a single time where I or anyone I was with or near had ever
commented on, thought anything of, or even really noticed what card somebody
else was using to pay for food with.

~~~
jschwartzi
People occasionally notice my USAA card, but it's more of a shibboleth for
military families than for affluence.

~~~
mrdmnd
I've noticed this too. I'm not actually in the military, but my grandfather
was a doctor in the Navy and apparently we've been (literally) grandfathered
in for perpetuity. The card has raised eyebrows in places I would not have
imagined it would be noticed.

~~~
jschwartzi
That's almost exactly my situation. My dad was in the Army, so I'm
grandfathered in, as well as anyone in my immediate family.

------
arcticbull
Over the last 5-ish years they:

(1) Lost US Airways lounge access from the Amex platinum (merger).

(2) Lost Continental as a transfer partner for MR (merger).

(3) Lost Continental lounge access from the Amex platinum (merger).

(4) Lost Delta lounge guest access.

(5) Saw serious devaluations in Aeroplan for MR.

(6) Saw serious devaluations in Delta for MR (no more 50% transfer bonuses).

(7) Saw serious devaluations in BA for MR (transfer 1:1 with 50% bonuses to
1:0.8 with occasional bonuses).

(8) No more points lending (you used to be able to transfer more than you had
if you earned them back within a year, otherwise they'd bill you).

(9) Lost JetBlue co-brand card.

(10) Lost Costco co-brand card.

(11) Saw Plenti flop, and I haven't really heard much of Bluebird.

A few years ago, you needed 120,000 Amex points for a first-class round-the-
world flight with no fuel surcharges and 2 stopovers in addition to your
destination. That price has pretty much doubled in points and gone up 100x in
cash. It's just not as rewarding as it used to be.

On the other hand, Chase jumped in, offered lower-fee cards ($95 for Preferred
vs $175 for Amex PRG) with more valuable transfer partners -- especially
before the United devaluation -- and large signup bonuses. They were
friendlier, less stodgy and offered a better value proposition overall in 2011
with the Sapphire Preferred. Then they upped the stakes with the Reserve.

Amex should be worried.

~~~
yabatopia
It took some time to find out on Google , but I guess MR stands for Membership
Rewards. Unless you're referring to the Mongolian airline, the Dutch travel
agency or the Belgian political party using the same abbreviation.

~~~
ubernostrum
Probably "mileage redemption", as in either exchanging points from the card
for frequent-flyer miles to redeem for flights, or directly redeeming the
points for flights through whatever interface it provides.

------
davidu
This article focuses on the emotional attachment to a card, but that's not the
driver. It just comes out that way. I spend a lot of time on FlyerTalk where
the decline of Amex has been discussed over and over. There were mistakes made
on the revenue side, and on the rewards side. Three events basically tilted
the entire balance away from Amex:

1\. Failed negotiation with CostCo and losing the CostCo credit business.

2\. The United and Continental merger that signed the death of the United /
Amex relationship as all of that credit business moved to Chase and United was
removed as a redemption partner, which was the number one membership rewards
partner by a long-shot.

3\. The loss of JetBlue as a partner that demotivated Amex in the affluent NYC
credit theatre.

There were many other mistakes made, but those three had a compounding effect
on Amex's negotiating leverage to earn transactions, carry cards, and to offer
valuable rewards that drive member sentiment.

That's it. Three moves, each on their own survivable, but in concert
essentially destroyed a well-balanced equation.

The question is, how will they catapult out of this?

~~~
function_seven
> The question is, how will they catapult out of this?

They could sign a deal with Amazon to provide a Prime card that gives the
cardholder $0 Amazon Prime when they use the card.

EDIT: I'm not suggesting that this is the ONLY benefit, just something
comparable to the previous Costco arrangement they had.

~~~
seattle_spring
$80 / year is a terrible credit card reward compared to almost all other
credit cards. It would have to be free Amazon Prime + 5% back on all Amazon
purchases + $500 sign up bonus.

~~~
function_seven
True, but I was searching for something comparable to the Costco deal they
used to have. That perk was also pretty cheap (Isn't Costco membership in the
same ballpark?)

But yeah, throw some extra points/cash back in there as well. I'd go for that
in a heartbeat, and so would a lot of the demographic they're currently
losing.

~~~
arkades
If I'm not mistaken, the Costco deal was a free membership _and_ it was the
only CC Costco would accept - any other payment had to be via debit card. That
bit of arm-twisting was valuable.

~~~
function_seven
Yeah. No way in hell Amazon would agree to a similar setup. I didn’t think
about that aspect of it.

------
SanFranManDan
This article doesn't say anything about using your card abroad or how widely
accepted Amex is. I have an Amex and use it for all my subscriptions, and
spending when I'm in the US. In the rare chance that I can't use Amex, I have
capital one venture.

When I use Amex, almost universally people comment that my card looks cool and
take it and play with it. But whenever I recommend Amex to someone, it is
always met with "but I won't be able to use it everywhere", generally they are
talking about the US, but the same sentiment applies abroad also.

Its true, when I am outside the US, I can't use Amex, I have to use my Venture
card. How much of the drop can be attributed to the fact that now say in a
country like Brazil, even people selling packs of gum from mobile tables
accept MC and Visa? How many more millennials travel abroad? How many want to
use the same card in whatever country the find themselves in and not have to
worry?

~~~
ubernostrum
Barclays is quietly working that segment of the market. They are (or were last
I checked) the only issuer providing cards to people in the US which actually
support chip and PIN (instead of only doing chip and signature).

~~~
throwaway91111
When will they just ping my phone to confirm the purchase? Are they stuck in
the sixties?

~~~
Veratyr
I don't want my CC company pinging my phone, a PIN is much more convenient:

PIN: Insert card, 1234, enter.

Phone: Insert card, wait for notification, unlock phone, select notification,
confirm purchase, wait for confirmation to get back.

Plus, if you're somewhere without cell reception or your phone battery is
dead, what do you do?

------
morgante
This article seems delusional, either on the part of Amex or the reporter.

Chase isn't winning because Amex is too snobby or due to "cachet." They're
winning because the Platinum rewards are inferior to the CSR, even _after_ the
recent updates. In fact, Amex did probably the stupidest thing possible by
increasing the annual fee precisely when they're under threat.

As much as I like the Platinum, it's hard for me to justify keeping it this
year when the CSR is so rewarding. And that has nothing to do with wanting to
avoid appearing snobby (after all, I do love the metal CSR).

------
function_seven
It's always a bit disconcerting to find out that a decision I _thought_ I made
independently is actually part of some larger overall trend. This happens a
lot to me.

For a decade before last year, I used an Amex card exclusively. Then I
switched to a Sapphire card for the great signing bonus and better rewards.
(It's also metal, and as much as I'd like to pretend that doesn't sway me, it
does.) Now I find out that this is a "thing" and that I'm just another part of
the overall trend.

Oh well. If Amex successfully counters this move, I'll happily return. Their
customer service has been spectacular the few times I needed them.

~~~
ubernostrum
I generally keep at least one miles/points-earning card around, because every
place I've lived for the past half-decade has allowed me to pay my rent with a
credit card (I'm going to spend that money anyway, why not put it on the card
and pay it off the next day so I get something out of it?).

None of the places I've lived have accepted American Express, so all
branded/points-earning Amex cards are basically useless to me.

~~~
kylehotchkiss
Oh I wish I could do that too but the $45 credit card fee for $20 in points
doesn't ever make sense for me

~~~
ubernostrum
I used to live in a place where my rent -- for a nice apartment -- was about
$1k/month. That's 12,000 points a year from putting rent on the card, and
there are airlines where that's right around the lower bound of redeeming a
flight.

If your rent is higher than that, of course, it becomes a better deal.

~~~
seanp2k2
The way this all works is the merchant pays a fee to process you CC and the
bank splits that fee with you. Gas stations are somewhat smart about this in
that they charge you more when using a card since they're paying more for the
transaction. However, it's annoying to consumers to charge a higher price
depending on payment method. Not sure why gas stations are the only ones
getting away with it.

------
alxmdev
> _“Or, more precisely, snobbery has to be hidden and camouflaged as something
> else”_

Yes, just like this advertisement seems to have been hidden and camouflaged as
a New York Times article...

------
skylark
Chase's marketing team hit it out of the park with the Sapphire Preferred (and
now Reserve.)

This is going to sound stupid, but the Preferred/Reserve lines are fun to use.
They have a metal core which makes the card feel heavy. Cashiers would always
comment on the card's weight. It feels satisfying when you drop it on the
table at a restaurant. The perks aren't the best in the industry, but they're
good enough, and the incredible amount of points you got when you switched
over lowered the barrier to entry enough to make the move.

Without a doubt it's the "coolest" card in my wallet, and probably will be
until I get an Amex Black (yeah, right.)

~~~
_raoulcousins
I have the reserve, and was disappointed that the latest Chase Amazon Visa is
also metal.

If too many cards are metal, it becomes less special. The heft of the metal
makes me want to spend more, but not if every card has the same heft!

~~~
tbyehl
When did that happen? I just got a replacement Chase Amazon Visa Signature a
couple months ago -- it's not embossed, but it ain't metal.

------
cs702
More than two decades ago, I lost my Amex card (or perhaps it was stolen) in
Chiang Mai, Thailand. I dialed the _call-collect_ phone number on the back of
a traveling companion's card, and explained everything to an Amex
representative.

The next day they had a replacement card waiting for me at the hotel lobby. I
still don't know how they pulled it off.

In that instant, I became a lifetime customer. AFAIK, no other credit card
firm offers the same level and quality of service.

~~~
NelsonMinar
Chase should be able to do that kind of card replacement too.

Me, I cancelled my AmEx the second time they flagged my card-present $30
grocery store transaction as fraud. There was no other hint of fraud on the
account, but my buying groceries 100 miles from my home (in California) was
enough to trip their algorithm.

I could forgive the false positive, but AmEx's customer experience here is
terrible. They declined the transaction and then called my call phone from an
unrecognized caller ID. The call came from an Indian call center with very
poorly trained staff reading a script at me to verify I had the card.

So here I am in a stressful situation: can't buy my groceries, embarrassed my
card is declined. And they decide that's the time to outsource to some lowest-
bidder call center. Talk about contempt for the customer.

~~~
ghaff
Fraud declines can be really random. I put a lot of travel on my cards and in
the last couple of years I had a decline at a grocery store while traveling
and a decline at a gas station convenience store. Fortunately, someone else
was with me for one of those and the amount was piddling with the second.

I now always carry a spare card from a different bank although I'm not certain
I wouldn't have issues if I suddenly started putting big charges on a card I
rarely use.

------
ams6110
I use AMEX because their anti-fraud and customer service is the best I've ever
experienced.

I refuse to use Chase anything because of how poorly they treat their lower
income customers (staging transactions to maximize overdraft fees, etc.)

When I'm someplace that won't take AMEX, I use Discover. If they won't take
Discover I use my credit union Visa.

~~~
protomyth
> I refuse to use Chase anything because of how poorly they treat their lower
> income customers (staging transactions to maximize overdraft fees, etc.)

Yep, a true pain to explain to someone how pulling that stunt is legal. About
the same fun as banks cashing checks in order to maximize overdraft fees.

AMEX also does the Bluebird cards which are pretty nice for poor folks since
you can do direct deposit to the card itself and it has no charge refilling at
Walmart.

------
tristor
I've got both cards and have traveled all over the world with them. I'm not
giving up my Amex ever. They've saved my ass in big and small ways so many
times and I just don't trust Chase to do the same.

I do love the way the CSR looks and feels though, and it's essential to have a
Visa or MasterCard when traveling as so many places only accept those two.

Chase is doing great, I will keep both for the foreseeable future. It's going
to take time to completely steal me from Amex though, they've been doing right
by me for more than 10 years.

~~~
hkmurakami
This reminds me of my friends who met an elderly retired couple on a cruise.
They were Amex black card holders, and said that the biggest reason they
carried it was that if something happened to them medically (the husband was a
retired physician to boot), Amex would come through and get them to the best
hospital in whatever part of the world they'd be in.

That kind of support and service can be a huge difference maker to people who
have experienced or can perceive such niche cases.

~~~
jeffwilcox
Super interesting, sure, but the Centurion card ("black card") is much more
elite - minimum spend, $7,500 just to get the card, etc. Great offering from
Amex but a different league than the middle class cards like Chase Sapphire,
Amex Platinum, etc.

------
niuzeta
I spent five minutes reading the article, another several minutes to
contemplate if I've been pranked by the "new york times", then spent another
minute feeling... lost.

The auspicious "New York Times", to me, would have a standard to present more
inquisitive spins into story like this. What a shame. I was waiting for the
punchline then realized at the end that the punch was thrown, just never
registered.

To summarize this article, it starts off with a claim that Amex executives are
worried that Chase is taking more "young professionals". Then the article
discusses why that happens in this paragraph:

> A credit card, mystifyingly, had suddenly become cool. And what really got
> under Amex executives’ skin was that Chase was succeeding by, essentially,
> copying the American Express playbook and chasing the same up-and-coming
> elites who had traditionally joined Amex’s ranks.

"mystifyingly" being the key word here. There is no investigation, no
speculation, no data gathering, no journalism. There is a claim that a Chase
card "seems to be gaining preference" in the young professionals crowd. Why is
this a thing? Why is Chase being preferred over Amex? Is Chase even actually
being preferred over Amex? Is there a poll, at least?

The only paragraph that attempts to answer any of the questions is this
disjointed one in the middle of rambles:

> “The message we send is, this isn’t your father’s credit card,” said Pam
> Codispoti, who created the Chase Sapphire Reserve after 18 years at Amex.
> “For millennials, travel might mean taking an Uber to a hole-in-the-wall
> restaurant in Chinatown, and then riding the subway to karaoke, and then
> catching a taxi home. So we’re going to give you accelerated travel points
> on all that. This is a card for accumulating experiences.”

Other than that, there's no presentation of facts, but a rambling of
speculations and hearsay. I feel as if I've been served an advertisement for
Chase on thin veil. Do I have to start vetting articles from the "New York
Times" for quality too?

How disappointing.

~~~
massysett
You should absolutely vet NYT articles for quality. I canceled my subscription
to NYT because they are not putting out journalism worth paying $35 a month
for.

~~~
dopamean
You were paying $35/mo for The Times?

------
lainproliant
I used to have an Amex card because of Costco's exclusivity deal with them. I
only used it to shop at Costco because many other places didn't accept Amex
and my daily driver card has better benefits. I didn't feel like applying for
another credit card when the Costco deal ended, so it just ended up being
turned into a Citi Visa that I pretty much never use.

~~~
joeyo
The Costco Citi Visa gives pretty solid cash back percentages [1]. What do you
use that's better?

1\. [https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/credit-card-
details/citi.a...](https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/credit-card-
details/citi.action?ID=Citi-costco-anywhere-visa-credit-card)

------
danso
I hadn't heard about the Sapphire card until a few weeks ago when I read this
WSJ story, "If You Have 29 Credit Cards, You’re Probably a Millennial"

[http://archive.is/XEYJY](http://archive.is/XEYJY)

It details the efforts of someone who managed to get a Sapphire Reserve card
after dressing up as a Sapphire Reserve card for Halloween and sending a photo
of it to Chase:

> _“I’m kind of a credit-card—maybe junkie is not the right word—but I’m a
> credit-card enthusiast,” says Mary Xu, a San Francisco cybersecurity
> manager. In pursuit of points, she spends more than $1,000 a year on annual
> fees for high-end cards._

> _She was so disappointed to be rejected for the Sapphire Reserve last
> October that she spent hours constructing a costume of the card out of
> cardboard. She sent the bank a photo of herself dressed up, hoping for a
> second chance. She was approved about three months later._

------
Finbarr
There's a good discussion about this on the churning subreddit[1].

One of my hobbies has been maximizing rewards over the last few years. I've
had the Amex Gold, but Platinum rewards have never looked good enough to
justify it for me. I'll keep the CSR until something better comes along, but
it's easily the best card I've had.

Part of Amex's problem is the ease of access to information about which cards
are actually good. They can't rely on image anymore. I don't buy into the
article's argument about the CSR making the purchaser "interesting" at all.

[1]:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/churning/comments/65e347/amex_chall...](https://www.reddit.com/r/churning/comments/65e347/amex_challenged_by_chase_is_losing_the_snob_war/)

~~~
clubm8
Ironically one fringe benefit about having a CSR is people often mistake the
blue metal Chase for a black metal Amex :)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centurion_Card](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centurion_Card)

------
mstade
Amex has two great perks that justifies the cost for me:

\- Excellent travel insurance

\- 15-20% discount on car rentals with Hertz and Avis, priority service
including complimentary upgrades, and no extra fees for super cover

Additionally their fraud detection and customer service is great. If my card
is stolen or there are unauthorized transactions, they'll sort it out
immediately and get Anne's card in your hands within the day. As a European
who travels a lot in Europe and across the Atlantic, there's no other card
that offers the same.

Then there's all the rest, VIP access, airport lounges, concierge service etc.
Those are nice extras.

I pay everything on my Amex. Some smaller shops don't take Amex, but most
places I've been seem to accept it. The few times I have to fall back to a
Visa or MC I struggle to recall the pin.

~~~
perseusprime11
What about the scummy car rental insurance? Does Amex cover that?

~~~
mstade
Yes, this is what I meant by super cover. Essentially you just rent without
any additional coverage and Amex will cover anything not covered by the rental
agency's insurance. This saves a good $20/day at least, meaning if you rent
cars for just a few weeks per year the fee will be worth it, when considering
the discount as well. I've racked up about 7-8 weeks of car rental so far
since New Years, and thanks to Amex I saved a bunch of money on it, probably
more than the fee.

Another good feature is I've sometimes had to return the cars in different
cities, and every time they waived the fee because of the preferred status as
a card carrying member. These things add up for sure.

As far as I know, the insurance also works with _any_ agency, so not just Avis
and Hertz, so there's money to save even if you go for a more "fun" agency
like Sixt, with nicer cars.

Disclaimer: You'll want to verify all this with Amex though, but this is what
I've been told and what I've read in the ToS.

~~~
jlgaddis
This is pretty much spot-on. One thing, though, it's rental _cars_ ; that is,
it doesn't cover _trucks_.

Got burnt by that last summer when I wrecked a rented truck (on my AmEx
Platinum) on vacation for the girlfriend's birthday. :/

~~~
mstade
That's good to know, thanks! Although I wonder if that's universal, because
the definition of truck is probably different in different countries. Care to
share more of your experience?

------
softbuilder
I don't know what the perception is today, but Amex used to be known for
outstanding (like, truly outstanding) customer service. I had a regular Amex
and then a gold in the mid 2000s and I found that was no longer the case. They
also used to stand apart from other credit cards, much more like old-school
bankers used to be. When I was using them they started to act more and more
like regular credit card companies. There was also an ownership change at some
point iirc. I think they just lost their way, and along with it their
differentiating value.

~~~
cthalupa
I've had nothing but outstanding experiences with American Express customer
service, even in the past few years. Miles ahead of what I've experienced with
Chase and other issuers.

~~~
softbuilder
I don't doubt it. They always treated me well on the phone, but when I needed
them to actually fix a problem they fell on their face and thew up their hands
like they were powerless. I ended up having to solve it myself which blew the
whole point of using them. I may be an outlier.

------
empath75
The new Amex cash card is pretty solid with 6% back on groceries and 3% back
on gas and department stores (and 10% on restaurants for 6 months), but those
aren't exactly prestige categories. I use that for everyday spending and the
sapphire card for travel.

~~~
huangc10
Interesting. What card is this? Can you provide a link? Is there an yearly fee
for this card?

~~~
forbiddenlake
Yes. There's a fee.

The non-fee version is only 3% at restaurants.

------
hunterwerlla
This is relevant to a decision I made today. I was deciding which travel card
to get between the amex platinum and the chase sapphire reserve, and I went
with the sapphire reserve. I felt the amex's perks were catered more towards
business travelers doing expensive things, while the chase card was more
focused on people who travel for fun. However, I do not understand why people
think the sapphire reserve is not a snobbish card like amex: it has a $450 a
year fee, which is almost as much as the amex platinum's $550 fee, is ~metal~,
and is trying to capture the same group of people.

~~~
huangc10
$450 yearly fee with $300 travel credit. This includes Uber/Lyft and public
transportation. It's basically $150/yr, unless you don't use any of the $300
travel credit.

~~~
praneshp
As an economy traveller, I didn't realize how much international trips were if
I used a lounge for hops. The CSR comes with free access to a large number of
airport lounges, which was a benefit I was surprised I used.

~~~
arcticbull
Amex lounge benefits are now the same as Chase, both offer a Priority Pass
Select, and now AFAIK offer the same number of guests. Amex also offers access
to Amex Centurion lounges which are among the better domestic lounges.

~~~
saryant
Amex also includes Delta, if you're on a Delta flight.

~~~
ubernostrum
You can still get into a Delta lounge as an Amex cardholder, but Delta has
been tightening up its lounge access generally for a while. The biggest change
was introducing two-tier membership; Amex cardholders, and even Delta's own
top-level frequent flyers, now only get the base lounge membership (or
equivalent). This shows up in things like being charged $29/person to bring
guests with you, where previously you got two guests for free.

------
rdl
I have both, and end up putting 60% of my spend on SPG Amex (Starwood hotels
for sure, and then anything generic), 10% (Amazon) on the Amazon Chase Prime
Visa (5% back...), 20% (dining and other bonus categories, merchants that
don't take amex) on the Chase Sapphire Reserve, and VX on the VX credit card,
IHG on IHG card, UA on UA card, etc.

Amex Platinum (MR) has pretty bad values for point redemption -- it's a good
card to have for access to lounges and for certain airline tickets, but it's
generally not the best return for most purchases. If you're eligible, there's
a 2.5% back USAA credit card which is probably the cash-back winner, otherwise
SPG seems to win for value, but I've seen some 5-7% return cases for the CSR
too (Asian mileage tickets in C or F).

There's also the fact that personal Amex PLT is $550/yr (now), with ~$200/yr
in Uber reimbursements spread out over the year and a few other things. The
biggest benefit of PLT is the Centurion Lounge, which for US domestic travel
is nice if you're in those airports, but for international it's Priority Pass
Select on both CSR and PLT. CSR is $450/yr with $300/yr in credit for
virtually any travel, so it's net $150/yr. PP Select is worth that alone, and
a bunch of other benefits.

I'd drop Amex Platinum if I wanted to drop a card (and I actually just have
the OPEN Small Business version; I don't have a personal PLT).

------
myrandomcomment
Amex Platinum for the win. Customer service is the best and they make things
simple. Have an issue, just give them a call. Don't want to call, website is
simple to use. A few years ago my wife and I were in LAX heading to Dublin via
London. My wife left her card at home. Oops. Gave them a call. "I see your
hotel reservation in Dublin here. A new card will be waiting for you when you
arrive." It took all of 4 minutes. 11 hours later show up to the hotel and
there is an envelope with a new card for my wife.

------
inmygarage
Amex flooded their signed-in experience with awful pop-ups: upgrade your card!
get a personal loan! It's distracting when, as a user, I'm simply trying to
see how much I need to pay.

I switched to Chase.

~~~
jlgaddis
Mine (Amex PLT) is set up to simply auto-pay the full amount a few days before
the due date. I haven't logged in to their web site in months.

------
smaili
While by no means is this an apples to apples comparison, but for me this
debate has always felt like PC/Mac vs Unix/Linux computers. Yes, the latter
may seem/feel cooler, but there is far more support with the former platforms
and to me that's always been the motivating factor.

------
user5994461
What's the point of an Amex or Sapphire compared to a regular VISA or
mastercard?

Disclaimer: I am european, Amex doesn't exist here and you can't pay anything
anywhere with that. Never heard about Sapphire before today. Maybe you guys
don't have VISA and mastercard on your side of the Atlantic?

~~~
daxelrod
Visa and Mastercard are the two biggest card associations in the US (American
Express is another card association).

Credit cards are usually issued by a card issuer (bank) and are co-branded
with one of the card associations. For example, the Sapphire card is a
particular credit card issued by Chase Bank, but is a Visa card.

American Express (Amex) is a little bit weird in that they act as both the
issuer and the association for many of their cards. (They are less widely
accepted than Visa or Mastercard).

See this American guide to choosing a credit card[1]. Factors that people
consider include interest rate, amount of signing bonus, rewards (such as a
percentage cash back on each purchase or a percentage of frequent flyer miles
on each purchase), yearly fee to use the card, and other services that come
with membership such as warranty protection, concierge, discounts, and
reserved tickets for events.

What cards are available to a person depends highly on their credit history
and income.

[1][https://www.creditkarma.com/article/choose_a_credit_card](https://www.creditkarma.com/article/choose_a_credit_card)

~~~
user5994461
Does this have something to do with the credit card vs debit card thing?

Because credit cards barely exist on that side of the Atlantic.

~~~
daxelrod
In the US, debit cards are ATM cards tied to a bank account that can also be
used at a merchant; when the merchant charges the card, money is deducted
directly from the bank account. Debit cards usually have no rewards or bonuses
associated with them.

Credit cards, on the other hand, are connected to a revolving line of credit.
When a merchant charges the card, the issuer is essentially loaning the amount
of the charge to the cardholder. (With most credit cards, interest only starts
accruing a month after the charge; so people who pay their credit card bills
in full are not paying interest.)

In the US, credit cards were introduced as a convenient alternative to checks
or cash before debit cards existed. Because of cultural momentum, rewards, and
fraud protection, they are as widely used as debit cards, if not more so.

~~~
MrRadar
To throw in a bit of confusion, most US debit cards can also be run on credit
card networks (mostly Visa or Mastercard, though when I worked as a cashier I
saw a few debit cards that used Discover or Amex). The cash is still directly
debited from your bank account, but that lets you use the card at places that
do accept credit cards but don't belong to any of the dozen different debit
networks (STAR, Pulse, CO-OP, etc.). This is also why most US-based online
shops prefer credit cards since it's assumed that even if you don't have an
actual credit card you have a debit card that can be run as one.

------
huangc10
This is just me: I use whatever card I get the most points/benefits from for
whatever scenario (travel, food, gas, groceries etc.). I couldn't care less
what people think of me when I pull out my card.

It just so happens Chase has been pushing out cards that benefits my lifestyle
the most.

*edit grammr

~~~
nols
You couldn't care less

------
gaoshan
I use Amex (Blue Cash Preferred) because I get more cash back. I don't fly
often so getting actual cash for the sorts of everyday purchases that dominate
my usual spending works well for me. Amex has the best deals for that. The
thought that people will choose a card for its signaling to others or, even
more ridiculous, for its "feel" and/or look just makes me think people need to
step back and reassess how they live.

~~~
DiabloD3
I'd also like to drop in and say my Blue Cash Preferred is my favorite card
out of all of the ones I've collected over the years.

That 6% grocery cash back, ungh, so good.

------
mattpratt
I'm interested to watch retention through the first year for this card. The
most attractive aspect for myself and many was the sign on bonus which was
recently halved ([https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-cards/chase-
sapphire-...](https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-cards/chase-sapphire-
reserve-cutting-sign-up-bonus/)).

~~~
velodrome
Many are looking to churn (cash in and leave)...The rest are doing it for
utility and/or status.

Read the SlickDeals thread:

[https://slickdeals.net/f/9036199-chase-sapphire-
reserve-100k...](https://slickdeals.net/f/9036199-chase-sapphire-
reserve-100k-ultimate-reward-points-w-4k-spend-in-3-months-1650-in-1st-year-
benefits-expires-1-12-2017)

------
mark_l_watson
In the past I have always just used my bank's VISA or Martercard offerings.
Last year I joined American Express and I am very happy with the service, not
having my card put on hold on long trips, and the web app.

I must admit that this article made me want to also try the Chase Sapphire
Reserve but for now I probably won't.

------
scurvy
The Amex Platinum paid out over $2k in benefits on my honeymoon alone (2 free
nights at a Four Seasons, upgraded rooms, free breakfast for 2 every day, and
a resort credit) through the Fine Hotels and Resorts program. I don't always
travel like that, but I did then and the yearly fee was more than worth it.

------
code4tee
The AmEx lounges are much nicer than the airline lounges... only bad thing is
that there aren't more of them

~~~
saryant
If the rumor about an Amex lounge in Denver is true I'll drop Chase in a
heartbeat.

------
dade_
I don't think smart wealthy people pay a dime in service fees. I gave the
privilege of collecting transaction fees on my purchases to HSBC, who charges
me nothing. It has all the usual premium card perks, though not the latest
silly ones. I'll buy my own Uber credits.

~~~
revelation
Smart people wouldn't pay the equivalent of a 2% sales tax to a private
corporation in exchange for gimmicks.

The best part is that they realized you can keep the people from finding out
that they are being royally ripped off by giving every single 30 card toting
person the special feeling that they are _the one_ getting back more than they
put in.

~~~
MrRadar
Cash itself isn't cost-free for businesses. There's the extra time it takes to
count change for customers, the mistakes cashiers make when counting change,
there's the time it takes to count the register at the end of a shift, the
cost of a safe to hold cash on-site, the risk of counterfeit bills (when I
cashiered we'd check $50s and $100s but not $20s and lower since it would take
too long), and the cost of transporting the cash to the bank (either in the
cost of an armored car or the risk of getting robbed on the way to the bank
(which happened at another location while I was cashiering, after that they
switched to an armored car)).

~~~
revelation
Credit card processing fees in the EU are legally capped at <.3%

What you are talking about may be well be true but let's be very clear here
that transaction fees above that number are _ripoff for gimmicks_ , not the
equivalent of what cash handling would cost.

------
dawnerd
I've been finding Fewer and fewer places that accept Amex. Sometimes when you
hand over an Amex they'll give you a look since you're costing them money. If
hey really want to compete they need to lower their merchant rates.

~~~
DiabloD3
I don't know anyone I do regular business with that doesn't accept all four.

~~~
ajdlinux
Here in Australia it's probably 50/50 that any given merchant will accept Amex
or Diners, and of those that do, surcharging up to around 3% (though I've seen
up to 7% before!) for Amex is quite common, particularly at small businesses.

------
cobookman
Amex travel sight also gives great discounts btw. I once got a fairmont hotel
room for the price of a mariotte. And it came with an upgraded room, free
breakfast each day, and $100 to spend while at the hotel.

------
jpatokal
I use Amex whenever I can because it gets me the most frequent flyer points,
which in turn is because it has the highest merchant fees.

I also use Android Pay, which means nobody can even see what card I use...

~~~
rak00n
I wish more restaurants would accept Android pay. Right now I only use it in
Whole Foods, Trader Joe's and sometimes in some random gas station which comes
as a surprise.

------
iambateman
I have a run of the mill Amex and definitely just use it for the perks. If my
Visa card offered 6% on groceries I would use that too...

------
sddfd
The conclusion is not reasonable: what has competition in the credit card
business to do with the end of the latest recession?

------
throwaway91111
How is this not a commodity market yet?

------
tiatia
Well, what makes the cards so great? Seriously?

* Collect miles? I prefer the Cash back I have with my CC.

* Zero foreign transaction fees is a nice feature.

* Create virtual credit cards is a good feature.

* Travel insurance? Have a better one that any CC could offer me, including air evacuation. Don't need that with my CC and also would be worried about the fine print.

* Lounge Access? If you are a frequent flyer you should have Elite or whatever status anyway, hence I don't need this either. If you really need a card with "lounge access", Diners Club is still available in some European countries for less than US$ 100 per year. (Dines Club Lunge access included)

If I miss something with my CC then it is bicoin access:
[https://bitpay.com/visa/](https://bitpay.com/visa/)

If you need a "prestigious" card, try here:
[http://creditcardforum.com/blog/most-prestigious-credit-
card...](http://creditcardforum.com/blog/most-prestigious-credit-cards/)

AH, Just saw. 100 bucks for, at least previously, 100k miles is not so bad.
Most "prestigious" cards I know have fees from 400-1000 USD

"Introductory Annual Fee of $0 the first year, then $95."

------
fooey
I must be poor. I had zero clue at all that having an Amex was prestigious in
any way.

~~~
pinum
This. I knew about the Centurion, but I considered their normal cards to be on
the same standing as any other. I have their free Everyday card, because
they're pretty much the only issues in the UK who still offer cashback.

~~~
phil21
And you are correct. Only the Centurion has any social signaling power (real,
at least).

Any other Amex? It's just a credit card, who gives a shit.

~~~
rdl
Amex Corp Card with the name of a well-known and respected company still has
some social signaling power, I think. (Like if the card said SpaceX under the
user's name)

------
swang
That reminds me, I need to cancel my AMEX...

------
arjie
LOL. Classic. You guys spend all your spare time talking about ad blocking and
then what's left is spent on posting blatant advertisements to each other.
Hilarious. The only thing missing from this is the 'press release' tag.

