
Ask YC: Experiences with founder burnout? - h34t
One of the reasons I've started using this forum is because I'm burnt out. I've been in a product development  startup in China for the past 10 months (as in the design and engineering of real, physical products to ship back to Canada/the US) and it's been the most exciting and learning-intensive time of my life, but I've hit a wall and now it looks like this means the end for all of us here. We were undertaking a pretty ambitious project (though we only learned of its true difficulty along-the-way), and it's still technically possible and definitely marketable -- but requires a lot more money and time than can be committed given my pretty-much-incapacitated state. <p>Burnout feels incredibly illogical, because you can't do what you tell yourself you want to do. You can have a conversation with someone and get right fired up about an idea in-the-moment, but when you try to execute, a blanket of fog comes over your brain and you sit there like a deer in headlights. You can hardly perform at the level of a 10-year-old, no matter how much you tell myself that you want to continue. You try to explain this state to someone else and you get a blank stare; how could you be so "disabled" when you still look reasonably healthy and vivid in conversation? It's tough for them to see this as anything other than a conscious choice, on your part, to quit. But, <i>you</i> know that you keep getting up and trying to hack away at things -- and you keep hitting the same wall. Thankfully, my partners and investor are being very understanding, and they are the ones with the most to lose.<p>This is really, really tough -- my amazing and talented staff, my dreams and plans, all the relationships we've built, my reputation -- all of it is now at the mercy of the buzzing of my neurons and the chemicals shooting through my veins, caused by the way I've handled myself over the past 10 months ("full steam ahead, I'm 24 and invincible!").<p>Has anyone here burnt out before, or seen it happen? Has YC learned of any warning signs? <p>I would guess that being a part of YC itself would help prevent this, because of the opportunity for social support -- it can be really tough not having friends who know what it's like to be where you are, doing what you are. <p>As for me, I am pretty confident that eventually I'll be able to put myself back together and start something new again -- but I won't be operating anywhere near 100% any time soon, even though I certainly can't sit still as there's still rent to pay and I'm dead broke from having no salary all year.
======
nostrademons
A little hypothesis:

Burnout is your subconscious's way of telling you that you're on the wrong
track.

I've found that every time I've felt burned out - whether in writing, coding,
startup, life - it's because I was working on something that ultimately was
going nowhere. I needed to revisit my assumptions, yet my conscious mind
didn't know that. Burnout was a way for my subconscious to say "This isn't
going to work, you're not working on the important stuff, take a step back and
look at the big picture."

When writer's blocked, I delete the last 3 paragraphs I've written and take
the story in another direction. This has almost always cured my writer's
block; when it doesn't I delete the last page and take the story in another
direction.

When coder's blocked, I revert to my last svn commit and start again, usually
with a smaller task. I've thrown away up to a week's worth of work this way,
which is another lesson: commit early and often. Commits should be an hourly
or minutely process, not something you do after a whole bunch of work.

When blocked in general, I think about the last design decision I made and
revisit. Oftentimes, if I'm blocked entirely and can't even get started on
implementing a feature, it's because the feature is ill-conceived and needs to
be redone. Maybe it's done with incorrect assumptions about how users will use
the problem, or maybe it just doesn't serve any purpose. Revisit whether you
need the feature at all.

If you find you can't work on your startup at all, maybe it's a sign that your
startup is on the wrong track. Revisit your idea. I'm actually at that stage
with mine: we scrambled to get a demo ready for YC, but now that I want to
procrastinate and avoid work (our market is people who want to procrastinate
and avoid work), I find that I don't want to use our product. But I've got
some ideas about how to backup and try a different approach, and now I want to
try them out and see if they can get me procrastinating with the startup
itself.

~~~
h34t
Interesting -- your hypothesis is almost exactly what I wrote down in my
journal just this morning, when thinking about how I let my "commitment to the
business" override so many other thoughts/desires/gut-reactions. Some level of
compromise is needed to get _anything_ done in real life, but too much is too
much.

------
gibsonf1
What has worked for me in the past is an experience that combines intense
physical exertion combined with attaining a difficult goal combined with an
inspiring view. In other words, I hop on my bike and ride up a mountain and
refuse to stop until I get to the top and bask in the incredible view. This
has worked wonders for me in helping to gain real perspective on my situation,
and I think the physical exertion and intense focus needed to make it to the
top of the mountain help "reboot" my brain. Another method, during the winter,
is cross-country skiing. (In the Bay Area, we have the largest X-country ski
area in North America 2.5 hours North of SF.)

The bottom line, you need to completely focus on something entirely different
than your problem at hand to give your subconscious a chance to recuperate and
give you a solution and new inspiration.

~~~
davidw
I wonder how many other hackers are cyclists? I think it's the perfect hacker
sport - there's lots of tech, you can go alone if needs be, but it can also be
fun to join a team, or participate in events like races.

There are things I don't care for here in Innsbruck, but I have some nice
trails about 5 minutes away from home, and plenty of tall mountains to ride
up.

~~~
mchristoff
we do this in LA:

<http://www.midnightridazz.com>

~~~
davidw
We used to do night rides in Oregon, off road. It's a lot of fun, although it
can be kind of creepy to be out in the middle of nowhere in the dark, so it's
best done with others.

~~~
mchristoff
yeah, rides are always better with others. even better with 500 others =)

------
kansando
When I was in grad school, I went through exactly what you are experiencing.
My advisor sat down with me and said:

"Take a month off. Go hang out with family and friends. Don't think about
work. Eat well & exercise. Then we will talk."

It was the best advice I ever got. I realized while I was away that I was
working on the wrong problem, and that with some reframing there was a way
out. You can't get that perspective while you are in the middle of things.

~~~
timr
You had a good adviser. Mine would grudgingly look the other way if I took a
couple weeks of vacation (at best), or become actively hostile (at worst).

In any case, it's excellent advice. The only reason I was able to finish grad
school was because I took a couple well-timed vacations when I was in
_exactly_ the mental state that the OP describes.

------
gigamon
The fact that you can write such an articulate article tells me that you are
much LESS burnout than you think you are. Give it some time and take care of
the other two legs of your three-legged stool first (take care of your health
and your family which I suspect are also in need of some repair). If you don't
have your health and you don't have the support of your family, you don't have
a fighting chance to re-start your career. Also, you cannot look at your
career one job at a time, it is a piece-wise continuous journey that happens
to have multiple rest stops. The following is my experience, hope it helps.

Why Startups Fail and Why Gigamon Should've Too
<http://www.lovemytool.com/blog/2007/09/why-startups-fa.html>

\--Denny--

~~~
h34t
Thanks for your advice, and the interesting read.

I've had the past couple of weeks off to think about everything, and I think
that's why my posting is anywhere near articulate... Two weeks ago I talked to
my partners and they recommended that I take some time to think about what I
need to make myself healthy again, totally irrespective of what impact that
would have on the business.

It was today when I tried getting back into work again by focusing on the most
simple of tasks, and I got deer-in-headlights syndrome again -- for the first
time since I started my break. One moment back-in-the-game and it felt like
I'd had no break at all. So, more time is needed I think.

I agree 100% that health and relationships are most important. I noticed that
I was no longer responding to emails from family and friends, and my health
was declining. I tried to take action on these more recently but it was a
little too late to have enough impact.

If the business was anywhere near stable, it would be a different story, but
in our product development we're currently facing an uphill battle wearing
rollerskates -- if we're not advancing, we're sliding backwards due to our
burn rate and the seasonal nature of our market.

~~~
gigamon
It takes a little bit of humor and a lot of humility (emphasizing the latter).
And from your replys to the other comments, it sounds like you are well on
your way already.

I am writing my own experience as a Crashed-and-"Turned" entrepreneur and I
have a slot to publish next Thursday (10/25). Please check back.

<a href="<http://www.lovemytool.com/blog/startup-for-less.html>">Startup for
Less - Survival Guide for Bootstrapping Entrepreneurs</a>

Good luck.

\--Denny--

~~~
gigamon
After reading the various comments, I was motivated to write up my own
experience on how to survive Founder burnout. Below is my post.

<http://www.lovemytool.com/blog/2007/10/riding-a-bike.html>

Please enjoy.

\--Denny--

------
edw519
You are not burnt out and I have proof. This discussion. A truly burnt out
person would not have even bothered. (Kinda like claiming you're over your ex-
girlfriend but still wonder what she's doing all day long). The fact that you
are here is not an admission of giving up; it is a cry for help. You still
really want this.

There is some excellent feedback in this thread. Let me add mine, which may be
a little different. I go through what you are experiencing all the time. There
are days when I can't stay awake at my terminal. Sometimes I hit a road block
and wonder how I'll ever get by. I usually step away for a time, but here is
my real secret...

Pick one little thing that needs to get done, no matter how small or
unimportant it may seem. If I'm really down, I pick some mundane task like
refactoring 25 lines of code, manually updating 50 records, or even changing
some naming conventions. But not something big like solving a client-server
architecture problem. Hell, that's the reason I'm already down. One other
thing - the task must be in the heart of your project; cleaning off your desk
or reading a journal don't count. Then do the task. Completely. You'll feel a
little better, I promise. The next day, do it again, maybe with a slightly
bigger task. And again. And again. Who knows, you may be feeling a lot better
before you know it.

I have no idea if my advice can help save your project, but I do know you
still want to. Use this group for support (I know I already do) and keep us
posted. You are not alone.

~~~
h34t
Thanks for the comment -- three points to make:

1\. I didn't write this in the thick of the battle -- I've already had 2 weeks
with most of my responsibilities lifted. This is what's given me the presence
of mind to write what I have. Also, the more 'down' I am feeling, the more I
tend to write. Writing my thoughts comes naturally to me -- it isn't
correlated with motivation or mood or anything of that sort.

2\. I think advice on tactical stuff like achieving tiny goals daily can
actually be detrimental to a person who's beyond a certain point of burnout,
because these little changes can distract you from bigger issues that require
bigger solutions. Don't get me wrong though, I appreciate what you're saying
and I tried ideas just like you've described for weeks before finally
realizing where I was at and talking it over with a mentor (who recommended
that I act -- fast -- to prevent further degradation).

3\. Maybe what you're sensing is that I still really do want to be successful
_in life_ \-- because I most definitely do. But as for this business, in
reality it requires my 100% commitment before it can budge another inch,
because we have some big spending humps coming up and if I can't predict with
certainty when I'll be back in the game in full force, it's too risky to front
more cash right now... and right now all I can think about are the blue skies
I need to be staring at while I take a real break, and how intensely awful
this has been on my mind and body and how bad it would be to have it continue,
now or in the future. So while on some level I do want this business to be
successful, I would have a very hard time committing 100% to be available
again at a certain, and fairly soon, date. I think that would be too risky for
me, and for the investor.

~~~
edw519
Just throwing in what has worked for me. Obviously, not universally
applicable. Sounds like you have a lot to think about. Best wishes - keep us
posted.

------
geebee
My only advice is to make sure you distinguish between short term and long
term burnout. I once left an entertaining startup (that was later aquired by
Apple) because I thought I was unhappy with the field, the job, the office,
the nature of the work. I took two months off between jobs, because that was
the only way I felt I could get time off.

At the end of the two months, I have to say, the old job didn't sound so bad
anymore. I started grad school afterwards, so I was charged up, but I suspect
that the time off was what I really needed. Looking back, it was actually one
of the more innovative startups I've ever worked at.

You may be looking at deep long term burnout, but how long as it been since
you've walked away from work long enough to reset your head? It doesn't have
to be decades - a single year of 10 hour days where you often find yourself at
the office on weekends can be enough to cause your mind to rebel and shut
down. Think of your head as an employee that has been pushed too hard, and has
retaliated by not producing anything.

I've learned to identify my short-term tendency to burn out and distinguish it
from true career malaise. Maybe I just need more time off than the average
person. I wish I could drive harder, but if I can't, I may as well know that
about myself and minimize the damage.

~~~
h34t
What you're saying makes a lot of sense to me. Unfortunately, we may need to
make a decision here before we really know whether it's short-term or long-
term burnout, because we have to decide pretty-much-100% whether and when I'm
going to be back, before I take my break. If there's too much uncertainty,
it's a no-go.

If we had the stability to simply put things on hold, I would definitely take
6-8 weeks off before we decided what to do.

------
falsestprophet
Working 80 hour weeks in a radically foreign country may be a significant part
of the problem.

You sound like you need a strong drink. Start with that.

If you are still in China and, damningly, in one of their wretchedly filthy
cities. Get out for a while. Go to the country. Go for a run or a walk or get
in a sporting fight. Do something human. I have found that I need this
antidote to engineering.

------
alaskamiller
I can't work at any place for longer than 6 months. My resume is filled with
companies every 6 months. Simply because I wake up with so much stress. My
current job I've held longer for a year but it's getting to the point where
I'm starting to dread going there despite what great opportunity and work
environment it is. To me, this is just the way I'm wired. Take a break, you're
in China, go see something. Do two weeks and refocus.

~~~
sbraford
Is it stress or boredom?

Finding a less stressful job doesn't seem like it should be that hard, but
maybe I've just been lucky.

What I've found helps is getting some (and setting some) explicit expectations
up front. If your company repeatedly violates these, it's probably time to
move on.

Recently at the startup I work for, we were doing a big push for launch (80
hour weeks, etc). One night I finally hit a brick wall and just couldn't be
there anymore, like when you're just sitting there looking at the screen not
able to work. My PM was being slightly a dick and not hearing me on this, so
Office Space style I snuck out the back and just left. The team even had a
conversation about whether they should fire me over this infraction, as if I'm
their 90-hour a week wage slave.

Another guy stuck it out, but resented the company so much for it that he quit
a few days later and wrote a scathing letter to the all hands list / posted it
on his blog. Point being, don't let anyone push you around.

And if you're a little savvy with clients / marketing yourself, just know that
you can always make 2x as much as a full-time job by contracting, where in
theory you should have more control over stress, schedule, etc. (ability to
choose decent clients / fire sucky ones, etc)

------
amichail
_Burnout feels incredibly illogical, because you can't do what you tell
yourself you want to do. You can have a conversation with someone and get
right fired up about an idea in-the-moment, but when you try to execute, a
blanket of fog comes over your brain and you sit there like a deer in
headlights. You can hardly perform at the level of a 10-year-old, no matter
how much you tell myself that you want to continue._

I think this is your brain telling you that you would rather be doing
something else.

------
sspencer
As others have said, eat some really healthy food and do some serious
exercise. This is the best medicine known to man for burnout.

If I begin to feel even slightly burned out, I make a beeline for Wagamama in
Harvard Square (or Faneuil Hall). At the risk of sounding like an
advertisement, the combination of the food and atmosphere there are anodyne
when I get tired of coding. I hope they expand out from the Boston area soon
so you West Coast people find out what you are missing...

------
mironathetin
It is an art for itself to achieve the right balance in everything you do.
Working full power 24/7 is only kids talk (well, and investors talk too). You
can do that for a very short time, then you need a break - and suddenly, on
average your 24/7 combined with the necessary break comes out as a normal,
say, 6/10 job ;o).

We all must learn to listen to our body before it tells us to stop. I
experience that all the time in the swimming pool (I do ride my mountainbike,
but I also swim since ever): the kids jump in, power themselves out in 5
minutes and have to stop then. The experienced swimmers go 10% slower and last
for 2 miles. Do the same! And now take 2 or 3 weeks off. Thats the only way to
recharge.

------
anthonykuhn
I'm no startup founder, but I find that too much time in the technology
trenches has a similar effect on me. I recommend, as do a few of the other
posters, some time away, a change of scenery maybe, and good food mixed in
with exercise. Then, try again, a bit slower this time. I cross-posted on your
piece to <http://blog.innovators-network.org> The Innovators Network is a non-
profit dedicated to bringing technology to startups, small businesses, non-
profits, venture capitalists and intellectual property experts. Please visit
us and help grown our community!

Best wishes for continued success,

Anthony Kuhn Innovators Network

------
jkush
You seem like a pretty smart guy and this might be bad advice; is there any
way you can scale back what you're doing? Can you get something smaller done
so you don't have to spend as much and invest as much time and energy?

------
kirse
1\. Take time away, find what relaxes you and do it 2\. Get your sleep back in
order 3\. Make sure you're truly eating healthy 4\. Workout to relieve the
stress 5\. Optional - Spiritual needs in order?

The best thing I can say is now that you've had it happen, you'll be much more
sensitive to it and can recognize the warnings signs.

Also consider building in regular self-evaluation and relax time, it helps
keep everything in balance.

------
cstejerean
Take as much time off as you need. I personally cant unwind my brain by going
biking or sughtseeing. No matter what I do I'll end up thinking about work. I
need to do something that keeps my mind on somethibg else. So I'll either read
a lot of books, catch up on movies that I want to see or play computer games.

------
mrtron
I am definitely with the crowd suggesting some physical exertion.

10 months is a long time to go at full steam, take a few days off and reset.
Do not think about work at all, and go physically exert yourself, eat well and
relax.

It will vary by the individual dramatically, but I usually find all I need is
a few days to reset.

Best of luck

------
h34t
Thanks to everyone who responded to this. I really appreciate everyone taking
the time. It's a pretty amazing community going on here!

------
german
Eat healthy food and practice sports =)

------
kmt
Yoga can help. Or Tai-Chi, since you're in China.

