
Friends at Work? Not So Much - prostoalex
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/06/opinion/sunday/adam-grant-friends-at-work-not-so-much.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0
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sudo_bang_bang
"In 1985, about half of Americans said they had a close friend at work; by
2004, this was true for only 30 percent"

This decline precedes the Uberization of work (where people work more part
time gigs with less coworkers around). It even precedes smart phones and being
totally mired in watching our social media accounts when we get free time at
work, as opposed to interacting with those around us.

I can only speak for myself but at work I feel a little constrained when
trying to speak to people in a friendly non-work related manner. Primarily I'm
concerned I might offend someone, with an offhand comment or joke. The laws
and guidelines in place to protect employees against offensive behavior are a
great thing but perhaps I take it too seriously. Perhaps it also affects by
ability to make friends and "be myself" at work.

~~~
ceras
I feel similarly, but I also don't _want_ to be friends with my coworkers. I'd
rather we keep a friendly, polite distance in our relationships. I love my
job, and go to work to actually work: my social interaction comes from
elsewhere, on my own terms.

I honestly think this keeps things more productive. There's less room for
wasting time socializing, or worrying about people feeling left out, or (like
you said) offending people, or anything else that takes time away from work.
I've personally seen it happen where relationship concerns ("why won't they
talk to me more?") get in the way of people's comfort working together. It's
just silly to me. It has no place in the workplace in my mind.

~~~
zzalpha
_I honestly think this keeps things more productive_

So you're just going to ignore the fact that the article notes studies proving
the opposite?

 _or anything else that takes time away from work_

How very Calvinist of you.

You spend one third of your day at work, probably half of your conscious
hours.

Maybe your workplace shouldn't be a soulless machine dedicated only to cold
efficiency and productivity? Just a thought.

~~~
hrktb
>> I honestly think this keeps things more productive > So you're just going
to ignore the fact that the article notes studies proving the opposite?

I went back and reread the article. It's just one study as far as I know. This
one involving 170 something people in the US:
[http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/72/4/775/](http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/72/4/775/)

How was it done ? What was the control group ? How did they choose the members
? Are these some college students as in so many psychological studies ? Does
it compare to real world companies hiring people that match the company
culture and are professional enough to cooperate in most conditions ?

The more I think about it the more it fels very fluffy and hard to take for
granted.

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Tycho
One thing I find a bit weird, and I suspect it started in America (but I'm not
sure), is when colleagues pass each other and they say 'how are you?' _and
keep walking_ , making it entirely obvious that they're not really interested
in how you are. Or maybe they expect some rapid fire response. Not sure. But I
think it would be better to just say 'Hi' if you don't intend to stop and
actually talk.

~~~
cb18
This is an American thing in general, not just a workplace thing. I know that
people in other cultures find it quite strange sometimes, and frankly it is
when the actual meaning of the words is considered and what their use implies.
But it has somehow just become a kind of standard default greeting.

I think it's probably meant to imply a kind of warmness to the person it is
directed to, kind of like, "nice to see you," or "I wish you well."

No one expects it to lead to extended conversation when it is used
nonchalantly like this. And you're right, it is frequently encountered in
situations where one or both parties are in motion. Often in a form like:

A: Hi

B: Hi, how are you?

or

A:Hi

B:Hi, how are you?

A:Good, thanks!

or

A:Hi

B:Hi, how are you?

A: _smile, nod_

or

A:Hi

B:Hi, how are you?

A:Good, and you?

B:Good, thanks.

I think this is fairly common in languages, that words are used in a way that
from their literal meanings you wouldn't expect. Idioms of course, but I think
in other ways as well.

~~~
sixbrx
Yeah a lot of us do it even if we find it awkward, because we feel it's better
than seeming cold and smug. It's also kindof an invitation I guess for real
talk in case the other party really has something ready to chew on with you.

It reminds me of the Dilbert where he's telling Catbert how he was confronted
with passing someone he barely knows for the second time in a hallway, where
he already gave the empty "hey how's it going" the first time not long before.
Catbert asks what he did, he says he pulled the fire alarm, because he
couldn't think of anything else ("I doubt Mrs. Manners will back you up on
that one"). I feel that way sometimes too :)

~~~
throwaway999777
> Yeah a lot of us do it even if we find it awkward, because we feel it's
> better than seeming cold and smug.

In what universe is a simple greeting _cold and smug_?

~~~
sixbrx
It seems to me a lot of people are turned off by it. I'd rather just say "hi"
myself when I've got nothing, but I notice people stop responding at all
(won't even say hi back) when I do that.

So, this universe.

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dceddia
"Technology companies like Google and Facebook provide opportunities for
shared games, sports, exercise and meals — and research suggests that playing
together and eating together are good ways to foster cooperation."

Does anyone else find this sort of stuff very corporate and off-putting? I'm
all for hanging out with some coworkers on occasion. I like quite a few of
them. But company-sponsored "hang out with your coworkers to foster
friendships!" time just seems fake.

~~~
slingerofwheat
No.

For a lot of people who move in from strange places on earth to work at
FB/Goog/tech company, making friends is very hard. Hanging out with co-workers
has been the primary way for a lot of people I know to have a social life.

I'm a nerdy Asian guy who worked with a predominantly white company and it was
very lonely there, because none of the white people want to "hang out with co-
workers". However, moving to a larger company really helped me make friends
and boost my self esteem. It may be corporatey, but I'm thankful my company
atleast cares that much.

~~~
dceddia
Thanks, I hadn't thought of it from that perspective :) I'm glad you found
some friends.

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ps4fanboy
This is just risk and reward at work. People subconsciously fear the
consequences of offending someone in the work place, with very little upside
most people prefer to just keep it about work and nothing else.

~~~
qmalzp
It's not even subconscious for me. I have a very small group of friends who
know how I feel about most things, and everyone else gets the PC version.

~~~
thenmar
Would you mind elaborating? What kind of views are you talking about?

------
fromMars
I think the economic explanation is at the root of this. As they mentioned,
long term employment is essentially gone.

In addition, things like pensions are no longer common except in the public
sector. Add to that, the rise in cost of living relative to salaries and you
end up with a situation where the work place is a very competitive
environment.

We are competing with our coworkers for raises and advancement opportunities.
Often this competition has an ugly under-belly, as it invariably involves
criticism of coworkers' performance and self-promotion of one's own work.

~~~
mistermann
I agree. It depends a lot on the industry and size of the company I think, but
in some places it is brutally political. I personally don't even mind a
critical and self-promotional environment, it's the quiet, behind the scenes
long game politics that bother me. I think it's especially depressing because
if everyone stopped undermining each other and worked collaboratively, the
shared fruits of your labor would probably make most everyone better off.
Except then likely 30% of the staff would be cut because high productivity
leads to redundancy.

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jp_sc
“It’s not that Americans are less concerned with relationships overall. We’re
social creatures outside work, yet the office interaction norm tends to be
polite but impersonal. Some people think pleasantries have no place in
professional meetings.”

Is this what mean the "keep it professional" clauses in the open source
communities code of conducts? Not to "be civil and don't say things you
wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation", but "be impersonal"?

~~~
ps4fanboy
It may not be the intent but it is definitely the outcome.

------
stuxnet79
I was partly raised in a culture where it was normal for your colleagues / co-
workers to know every aspect of your life. In general everything was more
communal, and there wasn't a lot of independent loner, do-your-own-thing, dog-
eat-dog mentality that is so pervasive in American culture. I'm not even going
to discuss the merits / negatives of each particular worldview, but what I do
know is that I find it utterly depressing that I've worked and interacted with
my (now former) colleagues for close to 3 years and none of them even care
enough to ask me what I'm going to do with my life afterwards and what my next
plans are (today was my last day).

------
jedberg
I know this is just anecdotal, but my experience is quite the opposite. Some
of my closest friends are friends I made at work. I was in their weddings.

Sure we drift apart when we no longer work together, because we don't see each
other every day, but we're drifting apart from being very close. I'm still
just as "in touch" with them as I am with my other friends.

------
Steko
Surprisingly, ctrl+f 'cubicle' gives no matches on NYT or here but it seems
like an obvious reason. I can't speak for most of the rest of the world but
today's Japanese office for rank and file still tends to look something like
[1] - desks pointed inward, arranged so that workers are focused on common
areas with low or no partitions. OTOH in the US the ubiquitous cubicles have
high partitions and are often arranged around the walls of the space so people
are pointed away from each other.

Whether this was done intentionally for some productivity benefits or because
workers liked the additional privacy or is just some unintended side effect I
have no idea.

[1]
[https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/gj-3.j...](https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/gj-3.jpg?w=580&h=435)

~~~
WWLink
lol I work in a pretty open "bullpen" as they say. Our desks have glass
partitions but they're about 10" tall, and I can totally see the 3 guys I work
with all the time. If we're using our standing tables there is no partition
lol.

It's kinda distracting, actually. Especially when I've got headphones on and
the coworker directly across from me doesn't. When he looks over I cant' tell
if he's just looking around the room or giving me the "take your headphones
off so I can talk to you" look lol.

Then again he usually tells me this in IM. Gotta love that.

After looking at the japanese floorplan.. I'd actually be totally fine with
that.

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steven777400
I work for the State, in a non-competitive and low turnover environment. A lot
of people here make friends with their coworkers, but I do notice that the
depth of those friendships seem more significant with the older employees;
they speak of road trips together, staying at each others' houses, and hijinks
that I don't hear nearly as much of (if at all) from younger coworkers. It
could just be the amount of time they've worked together, though, that leads
to that impression.

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scottlocklin
I do not relate to this at all. I have a huge network of former coworkers who
I keep up with via quick emails and "beers couple times a year" kinds of get
togethers. While the work is being done, I'd rather not see them more than I
already do, but afterwords, we're like old Army buddies; shared trials and
triumphs is a huge thing for normal people. Perhaps Catholic school had some
hidden benefits.

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mikerichards
_Americans have gone on vacation with 6 percent of their closest co-workers,
versus 25 percent in Poland and 45 percent in India._

No, the odd ones are the Poles and Indians that are going on vacation with
their co-workers....seriously.

~~~
nindalf
Are you missing the point of the article? According to the author, Poles and
Indians consider their co-workers their friends. Americans in general don't.
His other point is that Americans _used_ to think differently, so Americans
working today would consider people from 30-40 years ago to be odd ones too.

~~~
mikerichards
No, you seem to have missed my point. I find it strange that so many
percentages of Poles and Indians are going on vacation with their co-workers.

That's a separate thing from "being friends".

~~~
stuxnet79
Not sure why you are making that distinction. The implication is there. You
just don't go on "vacation" with anybody.

------
ArkyBeagle
"Gladiator, make no friends of gladiators." \- from Spartacus.

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rocky1138
Has the definition of "friends" changed in 60 years?

