
Superior IQs associated with mental and physical disorders, research suggests - nradov
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bad-news-for-the-highly-intelligent/
======
oppositelock
I've met plenty of incredibly intelligent people in my life, and very few
mentioned Mensa. Those who did had a yearning for being recognized as smart or
exceptional. Perhaps using Mensa membership to draw inferences about smart
people in general isn't statistically applicable. It could be that people who
want to be recognized as smart have those mental issues, which other smart
people don't.

~~~
thaumaturgy
I tried out Mensa briefly some years ago. I was just looking for new social
circles. I have some pretty sharp older buddies that I play Go with weekly,
they're a blast to talk to, and I thought I'd find some more of that.

It was bad. Really, really bad. The local chapter had a tiny handful of post-
retirement members. I knew a ton of folks in my community at the time, a bunch
of them were smart, active people, and none of them were members. It really
looked like the only thing the Mensa folks had going for them was having done
well on a test.

The newsletter was hilarious. One of them had a feature article on which was
the better superhero, Batman or Superman? The article and the responses to it
mostly centered around which of the fictional comic book characters had a
bigger IQ. The writing was juvenile (and not because it was written by kids),
and there was a regular feature that would pick some kind of trouble in the
world and ask readers how they'd solve it. None of the responses ever argued
from any kind of expertise or domain knowledge or offered any new insight; the
theme tended to be, "well, I'm pretty smart, so this seems like an easy
problem to solve..."

The discussion on HN on any given topic -- and the topics themselves for that
matter -- tends to be a heck of a lot more interesting. I keep coming back
here because of the people that just randomly show up in discussions who are
actual experts on the topic. That doesn't really happen in Mensa.

My takeaway from that whole thing pretty much agrees with what you're saying.
People who are Mensa members are members because their IQ is really important
to them to an unhealthy extent. That would seem to correlate well with other
psychological and physiological problems.

 _Probably_ anybody who reaches the level of 1 dan or higher in Go has at
least a Mensa-level IQ. Researchers wanting to do further work in this area
could try polling those folks too.

~~~
llamaz
How good you are at Go (or chess for that matter) has no correlation with your
IQ. There are plenty of examples of people extremely good at chess that
struggle, seriously, with academics (e.g. world champion Jose Raul Capablanca,
and the youtuber and grandmaster Eric Hansen). Kasparov doesn't have 180+ IQ,
which is a common myth. At some point he took the test and it turned out he
had a respectable but definitely sub-Mensa IQ.

~~~
DoreenMichele
Richard Feynman, one of the most respected geniuses of our era, tested as only
having an IQ of 125. IQ tests are far from perfect, to say the least. This
means our concept of IQ is likely inherently flawed.

Feynman seemed to take glee in sharing his "low" IQ of only a 125. He was one
of the smartest men on the planet in the last 100 years. Surely, we should
defer to his opinion that the concept IQ is sort of a joke. ;)

~~~
fileeditview
It always struck me as crazy to represent all that is intelligence in one
number. Also AFAIK many things such as "social intelligence" are not tested at
all.

I always smile at people putting that much weight into IQ numbers..

~~~
0xcde4c3db
> Also AFAIK many things such as "social intelligence" are not tested at all.

As far as I've read about it (not an expert; I've just seen this debate more
than once before and tried to educate myself on the basics), that's because
every time someone proposes an actual objective test for one of the "other
intelligences", it turns out to either be primarily dependent on training
(i.e. measuring conditioned behaviors) or to correlate so strongly with IQ
that the test is effectively an IQ test.

------
warent
Their entire high IQ sample comes from Mensa. So this should be restated
something like "Inclination to join Mensa correlates with mental and physical
disorder"

~~~
Alex3917
I guess I'm the control here, because I was briefly a member of ISPE. Not
because I have an IQ in the 99.9+% (as far as I know), but because they
couldn't figure out how to password protect their Ning group.

Based on the posts though, the members didn't seem any smarter than the
_average_ person on HN and the discussions were generally less interesting.

~~~
dhimes
For those like me who use duck duck go:

[https://www.thethousand.com/](https://www.thethousand.com/)

~~~
warent
The slideshow on that website seems to be missing one on humility

------
sndean
Some of this reminds me of The Ph.D. Grind by Philip Guo [0] and my own
experience when I was getting my PhD:

"For those few months, I morphed into an antisocial grump who shunned all
distraction and became deeply immersed in my craft. All I thought about was
computer code; I could barely speak in coherent English sentences except
during my weekly progress meetings with Margo. Even though I appeared and
acted subhuman (i.e., an unshaven disheveled mess), my emotional state was
blissful. I was programming and debugging for over ten hours per day, but my
mind was quite relaxed since my technical skills were well-calibrated for the
challenges I faced."

> my emotional state was blissful

There was a huge disconnect between how happy I was and how I behaved and
appeared. I gained 50+ pounds, lost normal hygiene, essentially only ate
peanut butter, became nocturnal, and more or less didn't leave my apartment.
My advisor was pretty explicit in their concern about my mental health, but,
looking back, I was really happy.

I wonder how much of this mental illness : high IQ association is simply being
obsessed with what you're working on?

[0] [http://pgbovine.net/PhD-memoir/pguo-PhD-
grind_2012-07-16.pdf](http://pgbovine.net/PhD-memoir/pguo-PhD-
grind_2012-07-16.pdf)

~~~
DoreenMichele
Achieving excellence has a personal cost. Imagine that.

The other thing is that the first test that gave rise to the concept of IQ
tests was not intended to measure _intelligence._ It was intended to measure
_school readiness_ for rural French children who often did not have birth
certificates, so age could not be used as an indicator of school readiness.
The problem was complicated by the fact that rural kids and city kids had
different experiences that left the rural children less equipped to cope with
the school environment. City kids were more likely to have already
participated in preschool, among other things. So, there was a cultural
divide.

The idea that some people are simply innately smarter is something that is
very much debatable. IQ tests are highly influenced by deep cultural knowledge
that is typically available to cultural "insiders." In the US, this is
typically upper class and upper middle whites.

If an American takes a British or Canadian IQ test, they will tend to perform
more poorly and show as having a lower IQ than on American tests, even though
these are all English speaking countries. The effect gets worse if you are
taking it in a second language. But it still exists even if it is merely a
different culture, not a different language.

~~~
lucio
>>British or Canadian IQ test

Google Raven Progressive Matrices, there are accurate IQ tests are not
associated with any culture

~~~
DoreenMichele
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15888888](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15888888)

------
DoreenMichele
This isn't remotely _news_. Articles on this study have been posted to HN in
recent months and _overexcitabilities_ and the idea that certain disorders are
"comorbidities" of high IQ was a common idea in gifted support groups,
conferences et al twenty years ago. A stronger argument that there is a real
link between the two is from a study showing the Ashkenazi Jews are about 2%
of the population but about 10% of people awarded Nobel Prizes. This
population has a high percentage of genetic disorders, a number of which are
known to impact brain function. A rebuttal to the idea that this proves
anything is that _perhaps it is cultural._

"Genius" is defined by thinking differently. Should we be surprised if that
has negative consequences, like not fitting in socially?

This is really old hat and adds nothing new whatsoever. If you are interested,
there are plenty of existing resources to help you explore this topic.

------
dqpb
_People who do well on standardized tests of intelligence—IQ tests—tend to be
more successful in the classroom and the workplace._

Where is everyone taking these IQ tests? In my entire life I've never come
across one in the wild, just SAT, GRE, etc.

~~~
taneq
I dunno, my dad took us to get tested at one point when we were in school,
iirc I was ~130. Low enough to still be pretty common, high enough to feel the
pressure to do something with it.

Then again, when I got to uni I was classed with people who scored way higher
than I did and they were... I dunno, "intelligent" but not "smart". I didn't
see any correlation between entry exam scores and subsequent performance.

~~~
brookside
I think kids get such scores when they are ahead of their age in areas of
mental development. I think in my case, because of attentive parents who had
me reading early, etc.

As I got older I realized I'm not actually smarter than other people, I was
just a little ahead, and the false belief that I am somehow exceptionally
clever was damaging in a number of ways.

~~~
Bertio
As a high school dropout living in the blue collar world after some rough time
as a teen on the street, having left home at 15, I'd long forgotten about the
potential I once had in grade school. Years later when I decided to go back to
school and get a degree, I entered the CS program. Despite great performance I
carried the delusion that I was not nearly as smart as everyone else. I was
also often the only woman in the class and deep down believed that I was
inferior. I had accepted that hard work was my only real tool for success. But
I truly loved the material and chose to get a double major in Math. I was
pretty isolated from my peers and was completely unaware to what degree I was
outperforming them. It wasn't for several years out in the workforce where I
actually started to realize I was actually alright in the intelligence
department and I wasn't just fooling everyone (although I still have my doubts
some days...). Nowadays, I frequently find myself in disbelief of where I am
now, what my career is, what I get paid and what my life is like compared to
where I was headed many years ago.

My brother on the other hand was treated like a genius from an early age and
was never really forced to work hard. Even when he failed, there was reasoning
that he was just too gifted and he was bored and never really had to learn how
to truly apply himself or grow. My dad gave him a job and eventually gave him
his company when he retired that he ran into the ground. He lived with my
parents until he was over 30 and now approaching 50 he still struggles with
keeping a job.

I think about the two of us and how we were both led astray by our adults
thinking they already knew what we were capable of. What you say about your
experience being damaging really resonates to me even if I'm coming from the
opposite side of things. I feel like I got extremely lucky that my particular
set of experiences even if they were tough to live through allowed me to land
on my feet.

------
inputcoffee
I wonder if the mood disorders are causal.

For instance, the largest mood disorder was anxiety. Let me recast anxiety as
"overly caring". An anxious person may work 3x as hard at a presentation or an
exam.

I don't want to glamorize mental disorders, but I think this might not be a
coincidental connection.

~~~
dsnuh
I'm bipolar, on medication for it. During my manic periods I have unbridled
creativity. During my lows I can't bring myself to do much of anything. It's a
double edged sword, and one I would never want to willingly give up. The key
is learning to recognize and manage your swings to as much of your advantage
as you can.

I don't think recognition that there are blessings with every curse is
glamorizing it.

------
legulere
Possible other explanation: People with higher IQ are just more often
diagnosed with disorders, e.g. because they are more likely to go to a doctor

~~~
blueprint
Flaws in those who are brighter also tend to be more visible, in my
experience.

~~~
mercer
Could you elaborate on that?

EDIT: as in, you'd think a brighter person would be better at hiding
'abnormalities'.

~~~
blueprint
Try to find examples in real life. Am sure you will see what I mean after
checking

------
EGreg
How do intelligent people cope with the thought that we can die at any time
and afterwards all existence as you know it comes to an end?

It makes things seem pretty meaningless. Even the top accomplishments that I
aspire to do will, at the end of the day, be just a temporary thing.

Add to this the prospect that in 50-100 years everything we do now and build
now will be as quaint as people who stiched clothes by hand. It will all be
automated so even the jobs we do today are like playing with children's toys.

So what's the point of it all? As I got older, I started feeling all the
social experiences and all the rooftop bars and so on are just more of the
same. A bit like hearing similar jokes over and over. I still enjoy
experiences but in the back of my mind I don't really see the point anymore.

I still really enjoy my work and making progress on it. But that dread is
often there, especially during late nights. Especially after I finish a video
game and the ending of that game world makes me think of being one level up.

Anyone feel this way? How did you deal with it?

~~~
mindfulhack
I have had life experiences recently (great, great loss) that make me realise
and see (quite clearly) that there is no 'point' to things either. Things just
are, reality just is (you can do nothing about it, you can only accept it or
try to fight against it), and 'purpose' is just meaning we choose to make of
it - bullshit stories of our own self-delusion - whether knowingly or not.

It's thrown me into depression (as I'm not used to not being goal-based) and
I'm kind of in a big existential limbo right now.

At this point, I'm realising that if there is no purpose in anything, don't
live with purpose. Instead, focus on process, and action. Simply accept what
is (observe reality), instead of imagining or striving for what isn't, and to
me it seems a more logical and successful life, all previous things said.

Be more connected to reality. Simply, existentially focus on that. Reality is
different to 'truth', in a way. Reality doesn't involve much thought, or
actually any at all.

It's a mindfuck because I just gave a purpose or reason for living this way -
but I've articulated the mechanism: don't live with purpose, just live with
process. Just do, and yeah read some Eckhart Tolle. And Byron Katie.

And here's a thought: There's no point to anything, so you may as well feel
love.

~~~
norlys
I'd highlight that these thoughts did not produce your depression, but your
depression produces these thoughts. I end up believing similar perspectives on
life when I'm stuck too deep in depression, too. If you want to be happier
again, work on the root of your grief. With the help of a professional, at
best.

------
csomar
Is it possible that the average person has as much exposure to these
disorders, however: They are not aware of it. And maybe they weren't as lucky
to have it diagnosed.

If smartness is genetical and I'm born with it, then the disorder should have
been present from the get go. But for me, these diagnosis only appeared when I
got richer: First, I had fewer issues to worry about (like bills or rent to
pay). Second, I'm more self-aware.

Imagine you are standing. You have a serious injury bleeding on your left
hand. I put a hot metal to your right one. Do you feel the hot metal burn?
Nah, you are too distracted by the _serious injury_.

Now if you have no injury, then you feel the burn. Smart people are usually
successful financially. It means they don't worry about what other people
worry about (rent, bills, food, etc...). So instead they focus on other stuff
like does life really make any sense.

That, and this is the first time I hear about Mensa. Maybe I'm not that smart.

------
badrabbit
I have a different theory, most cultures tell a kid that has mental issues or
is unattractive that he's "smart" even if that isn't the case.because, after
all,even with a good body and looks you can only go so far and if your social
and emotional intelligence is low that only leaves academic intelligence.

So,my theory is that people prone to developing mental disorders tend to also
get encouragement from their parents and community to seek academic
intellectual success. I believe 80%(guesstimate) of "IQ" is a result of the
individual working out their brain.

~~~
jamesrcole
> _most cultures tell a kid that has mental issues or is unattractive that he
> 's "smart" even if that isn't the case_

It's that really true? It doesn't ring true to my experience (which, in
general terms, is born in the late 70s in Australia)

~~~
badrabbit
Sorry,should have said "most cultures that I have been exposed to." I was only
speaking from the few cultures I have observed.

Although in some cultures I have seen,academic success and getting certain
types of jobs is heavily encouraged by most parents and communities. I have
also seen at least some US cultures that encourage extreme athleticism (sports
scholarships and all)

------
Manglano
Math is a language for describing anthropic systems and perceptions. The brain
is neither an anthropic system nor a perception, per se. So naturally,
attempting to quantify it would select for eccentricities at either pole.

Researchers say that "superior IQ" also correlates with lower-income and
higher achievement, but greater happiness. The question of what IQ actually
signifies is a good one.

Maybe we should create some more competing metrics to study...Who knows what
the data will find?

------
PMacDiggity
Seems like some of the OEs they mention the article are a contributing factor,
but it also seems very likely that people who were aware of their higher IQ
are more likely to go to doctors and psychologist, and therefore more likely
that any other conditions are also caught. A population with a
disproportionate level of observations will yield more results.

------
patall
Interesting discussion going on here. One thing I want to add that might serve
as a confounding variable of intelligence and genetic disorders is parental
age at birth. It has extensively been shown that especially the fathers age is
linked to the chance of denovo genetic diseases in his children, due to
mutations occuring in the ongoing cell replications. One the other hand older
parents tend to have children that are better at school (on average), are more
successful in their career etc. and therefore might be more likely to take an
IQ test and join Mensa.

------
mindfulhack
I identify a lot with the general theme of this article. I've worked out from
mindfulness-type observation inside me that most of my intelligence is just
cognitive, problem-solving energy powered by massive anxiety complexes, which
are the result of intergenerational trauma (of neglect, abandonment and
judgement) passed down to me...so, do I keep my intellectual 'gift' yet suffer
at the same time, or what? #existential

------
PeterStuer
Maybe in a saner world, smart people would be less depressed? It is hard to
keep smiling if you know where we're heading.

------
delhanty
The mental bit is possibly related to Joel Spolsky's

    
    
      {smart, not-smart} X {gets things done, doesn't}
    

analysis [1]

>People who are Smart but don’t Get Things Done often have PhDs and work in
big companies where nobody listens to them because they are completely
impractical. ...

Also, the ADHD thing of course.

Definitely I'd like to get more done, and for my mind and body to hurt less,
even if it costs me some IQ points.

So I experiment with neotropics: cold black coffee in the mornings and
magnesium taurate at night for example.

Also interval training of course: swimming 40 x 25 metres on the 1 minute
works for me.

Plus sun-bathing for mood when possible.

[1] [https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/10/25/the-guerrilla-
guid...](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/10/25/the-guerrilla-guide-to-
interviewing-version-30/)

~~~
TheAceOfHearts
I spend most of my time indoors and recently started forcing myself to go out
during the day and staying directly under the sun while drinking coffee. It's
amazing how much better I've been feeling. Just remember to wear sunscreen!

~~~
delhanty
Yeah! It's great for mood isn't it!

>Just remember to wear sunscreen!

I just use extra virgin coconut oil - found a brand that doesn't make my skin
go red.

Also, I cover up my face and arms (that get too much sun) and strip off to
spread the sun over a larger surface area - need less minutes in the middle of
the day to obtain vitamin D quota.

------
coding123
I don't believe in IQ, I believe in concentration.

~~~
walshemj
Not to get all wikifidller on you but _cite_

------
mythrwy
Maybe higher anxiety comes from a better understanding of all the potential
negative possibilities.

Something like the old saying about "ignorance being bliss".

<edit>On actually reading the article it suggests something like this.</edit>

------
coon57
These types of correlations are interesting on the global statistical scale.
However, using them to derive conclusions about yourself is pretty
meaningless. Assume you scored low on the IQ test (or even high), and the
correlation between success and IQ is ~0.65 (not entirely sure what that
means, and how is success defined here, but I've read something along those
lines). Thats doesn't really yield any strong predictive power, so one should
not take it seriously on the individual level.

~~~
lucio
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSo5v5t4OQM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSo5v5t4OQM)
IQ is one the most well defined and predictive test in psychology

------
aleph2c
If you want to make really smart friends go to weird al concerts.

------
vladislav
Assuming the association between high IQ and various mental/physical disorders
is true (evidence for which has been shown in several scientific studies),
there seems to be a simple explanation: the hidden variable is gene networks
which are responsible for both effects, which tend to lead to individuals who
are on average as phenotypically fit wrt survival/procreation as those with
simultaneously lower IQs and lower rates of disorders.

------
CurtMonash
I once posted on a message board plagued by an anti-evolution, anti-medicine
idiot who bragged of his Mensa membership. So I looked at their website, and
there's a test you can take to see if you're smart enough for them. I did the
entire half hour test minus two questions while sitting on the toilet for five
minutes, with (except for those two questions) a perfect score.

This was not surprising to me.

------
samstave
This is why you got to be careful when properly distributing your points. I
mean look at Raistlin, he is super powerful and intelligent, but at the cost
of his horrible ailments, while his brother is a beast and super strong, but
at the cost of being far more simple...

An even distribution is what’s needed.

------
xor1
My theory is that people with the mental and physical disorders measured in
this study are more likely to regularly partake in activities that develop and
accentuate traits that are used to measure IQ throughout their lives in order
to cope with social exclusion and loneliness, starting from an early age. This
social exclusion can come in the form of peer rejection, voluntary solitary
withdrawal, or a combination of both.

If you're ugly, depressed, have an anxiety disorder, a personality disorder,
or anything else that precludes you from engaging with other people and
participating normally in "real life", you're going to spend more time
resorting to escapism. If your form of escapism is something that contributes
to a marketable skill later in life, and you engage in it from a very early
age, then I think that this would correlate with a higher IQ, depending on the
tests administered. Things like reading (books or the internet), videogames
(certain ones), music, art, math, and programming of course.

------
SubiculumCode
Everyone points out that the sample may have been biased. Is there anyone
willing to say something about the idea from a neurocognitive perspective, and
not about the data or method?

------
m3kw9
Maybe with some type of mental disorders, the condition may more easily let
your brain to think differently to have a higher IQ

------
bthornbury
IQ != intelligence

again...

IQ != intelligence

Reading through the comments I feel this needs to be expounded on. IQ is a
barely useful metric in predicting achievement or success.

IMO thought structures and habits of thinking can be much more applicable in
reality than a high IQ, leading to higher "intelligence" despite low IQ. See:
Richard Feynman, idiosyncratic thinking
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr8sVailoLw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr8sVailoLw))

~~~
orangecat
_IQ is a barely useful metric in predicting achievement or success._

This has somehow become the standard wisdom, and it's just wrong. IQ is highly
predictive of a wide range of outcomes; see for example
[https://www.vox.com/2016/5/24/11723182/iq-test-
intelligence](https://www.vox.com/2016/5/24/11723182/iq-test-intelligence).

That's just correlation, which could happen even if IQ is really just a
function of your socioeconomic environment or other things that are not actual
intelligence. Although there is strong evidence that is not the case.

~~~
bthornbury
Hey, thanks for the information! May be that I am misinformed, let me find
out.

------
coss
Anecdotal but holy shit this fits me to a T.

~~~
watmough
These are my (anxious) people.

------
dep_b
IQ is like an atom number. The higher ones are more often unstable.

------
top256
Duplicate of
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15886128](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15886128)

------
lafar6502
Maybe the problem is in the selection method. Would any intelligent and
mentally sane person apply for Mensa membership?

------
chriscappuccio
Robert Downey Sr's take on Mensa opens this film:
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OPgId7RgQ2E](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OPgId7RgQ2E)

------
bitmadness
I don't like this word "Superior". Just say higher.

------
holydude
Sadly i only got the bad part of having adhd.

------
clandry94
[deleted]

~~~
drpgq
Saying in 2017 environmental factors play the biggest role in IQ score
differences is ridiculous.

~~~
owebmaster
What? Citation needed?

------
usgmr
It's just like my RPGs.

------
mynameishere
So, is this "scientifiamerican" a serious publication, or what? I mean, it
says that high IQ leads to various good outcomes (a fact that is obvious,
well-known and easily explained) and then basically says the opposite because
of a...Mensa survey. Like, uh, that's not how you do science. At all. Not at
all.

~~~
boomboomsubban
You're saying that survey results that are contrary to an obvious truth isn't
science? I don't think I understand your concept of science.

Moving past that, the bad outcome found and your obvious good outcomes aren't
incompatible. They could be more likely to be successful and suffer from
disorders.

~~~
mynameishere
I'm saying the survey results measure facts related to Mensa members, not
people with high IQ overall. The top comments in this same thread point out
the exact same problem, but what-the-fuck-ever.

~~~
boomboomsubban
Both the article and the study note that this may be exclusive to Mensa.
Spelling out how you chose the participants and acknowledging a potential bias
is how you do science.

