

How geek communication differs from the norm. - AndrewDucker
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.fandom/msg/1e5a957c26a3ce37?hl=en&pli=1

======
diiq
I am a student in art school, but I work in a machine learning research lab. I
talk to hip people half the day, and nerds the other half. I hope (at least in
part) that I've managed to pick up a little of both dialects.

I think that the point about speaking the written word is an excellent one. My
nerd socialization as a young adult came almost entirely in text. I became
used to the way that punctuation, flow, phrase length, and formatting
communicated. Particularly when writing comments or IMing, it is fantastically
important to be able to convey tone. If I'm sarcastic and you can't tell, I
may ruin the conversation. When I'm talking about computer science, I end up
using those skills more than the usual nonverbal cues.

I'd also make a point about eye-contact: it's really hard to think while
making eye contact. When a "fan" talks, they let the eyes wander so that they
can think. When listening, they focus the gaze to prevent internal dialogue
from getting in the way of hearing.

Or maybe we're just awkward. Hard to say.

~~~
xenonite
what differences did you find out between art- and CS-students?

~~~
diiq
In the end, there aren't really that many differences between them; there is
more variation from person to person then there is from subject to subject.
Certainly the greatest difference I notice is one of passion; the good artists
and the good engineers share a passion for what they do, and it's easy (for
me) to talk to passionate people --- polite or no, passion is infectious and
soon I don't care a whit about turn-taking or eye contact. The students who
lack passion --- who are in engineering for the money or art because it's
"easy" are the ones that make small talk.

------
sp332
_When we make a joke, we don't do a little laugh in the middle of a word to
signal that it's funny; we inhale and exhale a very fast, short breath at the
end of the sentence, rather like a suppressed beginning of a laugh, or a kind
of a gasp._

We're actually pronouncing the :-) at the end of the sentence.

------
jimbokun
'She did suggest that many of the common features of fanspeak seem to be
related to thinking in "written English".'

That seems a good summary of the differences cited between the "fans" and the
"mundanes."

~~~
logicalmind
I worked at company where everyone in IT was called engineer/geek/nerd/hacker
and everyone else was called a mortal. We even had mailing lists with these
names. It always made me chuckle.

~~~
RyanMcGreal
I assumed the use of "mundanes" was a reference to Piers Anthony's Xanth
novels.

~~~
MaysonL
Actually, it's a long-established usage in SF fandom.

------
NathanKP
From the article:

"Our body language is also different from mundanes. We tend to not use eye
contact nearly as often; when we do, it often signifies that it's the other
person's turn to speak now. This is opposite of everyone else. In mundania,
it's _breaking_ eye contact that signals turn-taking, not _making_ eye
contact. She demonstrated this on DDB; breaking eye contact and turning
slightly away, and he felt insulted. On the other hand, his sudden staring at
her eyes made her feel like a professor had just said "justify yourself NOW".
Mutual "rudeness"; mixed signals."

I find this to be really true. Amazing I never noticed it before, but I often
find eye contact dynamics to be a little bit awkward when talking to a non-
geek, and I think this explains why.

------
Sukotto
Very interesting.

This is from 10 years ago... has anyone else heard Karyn Ashburn lecture, seen
a video, or read a book by her since then?

~~~
AndrewO
Good call—I completely missed the date and thought it was recent.

Pretty much everything that comes up when you google the name is about this,
so it doesn't look like anything came of this, which is a shame. Also, it
being 1999, I'm guessing the only videos that may exist would be sitting on
someone's shelf somewhere (if they weren't taped over or thrown out...). :(

Any Minicon 1999 organizers or attendees in the house?

------
philwelch
Now I understand what my mother meant when she said to me, in a fit of
exasperation, "normal people don't talk in dissertations...strung together!"

~~~
sketerpot
Their loss, really. Someone who's in the habit of speaking in complex
sentences with formal diction can usually, with a bit of extra effort, talk
like a normal person. It's harder to go the other way.

------
tallanvor
I wonder if these differences in communication help to explain why some people
are better than others at learning new languages (written/spoken, not
programming languages).

If nothing else, I can use it as an excuse to explain why I have so much more
difficulty learning to understand spoken Norwegian compared to being able to
read it. :)

------
protez
While normal people talk to other people, geeks generate sociolinguistic
expressions to communicate with all the kinds of information processing
entities, possibly cyborgs, robots, or something. If the communicative pattern
of normal people is human-centered, that of geeks is (over-)generalized to all
intelligent beings. Yes, I'm overgeneralizing here.

------
AndrewO
While reading this, I couldn't help but think of one thing: Comic Book Guy
from The Simpsons. While I'm certain that the creators were drawing from
existing characteristics, I wonder how much has been reabsorbed and amplified
as a common foundation for speaking with other fen.

------
BearOfNH
It isn't clear from the article but based on the newsgroup name this talk was
part of a sci-fi convention. Should we assume that HN readers share language
characteristics (and maybe cultural interests) with sci-fi fans?

I would think so, but maybe there's self-selection bias involved.

~~~
josefresco
While there is commonality, I have to say from experience Sci-Fi geeks and
Computer Geeks are very different. Yes one interest overlaps the other but I
find the "geek essence" (yes I just coined that) to be different.

~~~
AndrewDucker
Except, of course, for all the computer geeks that are also sci-fi geeks.

 _looks around his office_

~~~
Retric
I know lot’s of really dumb geeks that are into sci-fi because they can’t
function in society. I also know several highly intelligent people who simply
don’t want to function in society and happen to like sci-fi. It can be
difficult for outsiders to separate these groups, especially because the less
intelligent geeks try and mask their faults. It's something like the Bulb
problem where it's hard to tell if someone is actually highly intelligent or
just acts differently than you do.

There is still a shared context among the geek community. I think Equilibrium
was the most emotionally moving movie I have ever seen yet I have little
interest in seeing it again, others just like the gun play and will watch it
constantly. But, such distinctions are only relevant once you have seen the
movie. Stepping back a few years and Blade Runner has the same dichotomy of
people who like and or obsess over the movie and those who simply reacted
strongly to it. (Now add Dune, Enders Game, Stranger in a Strange Land, etc.)

PS: The number of times you have seen each of the Star Wars films is probably
a good metric for this. (Not to insult Star Wars.)

------
fierarul
Surprisingly interesting.

------
dpapathanasiou
Unless this was meant tongue-and-cheek (and even then, it wasn't very funny),
it was a dumb post promoting cartoonish stereotypes.

~~~
rjprins
Did you feel somehow attacked? The post gives the appropriate disclaimer
upfront. And generalization is necessary to make any kind of point.

It's not about promoting, it's about honest observations. Which is what makes
this interesting.

I think the speaking "written English" idea is very plausible.

~~~
megamark16
Does anyone else crave direct, honest, borderline offensive observations about
themselves? People tend to be so darn polite that sometimes I feel like I
never actually know what people think of me. Maybe it's because I was home
schooled and for a long time I was socially awkward and didn't realize when I
was doing or saying something weird or stupid. Now as an adult I prefer people
to just tell me what they think about what I'm saying or doing.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Getting married fixes that :-)

But seriously, some of the best insights on my personality and the way I
interact with other people have come from my wife. Usually when she's pissed
off, but at least it's accurate and honest.

~~~
megamark16
I too am married, and maybe it's that exposure to pure, loving honesty about
myself that has opened my eyes to how rarely people really give you good
feedback about yourself.

