
Every Vehicle Should Have an Electric Motor, Even If It Doesn’t Have a Plug - JeffL
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/05/26/why-every-vehicle-should-have-an-electric-motor-even-if-it-doesnt-have-a-plug/
======
Creationer
The rise of EVs also presents the opportunity for generally lighter, smaller,
cheaper vehicles.

Already they are very popular in China:
[https://insideevs.com/news/340006/big-in-china-cheap-tiny-
el...](https://insideevs.com/news/340006/big-in-china-cheap-tiny-electric-
cars/)

What would a Tesla Model 3 look like if it had half the range, no frunk, and
much lower performance? (ie. limited to 120km/h) How light, cheap, and small
could we take it without utterly abandoning safety?

Basically, the kind of vehicle designed just for inner-city commutes and
picking up goods.

If these vehicles became more common we would see a 'peace dividend' in the
car safety wars - the other vehicles on the road would be lighter, so crashes
would be less dangerous (maybe combined with automatic crash avoidance as
well) and breaking times shorter, so crumple zones and other big heavy
features could be reduced.

~~~
lixtra
> What would a Tesla Model 3 look like if it had half the range, no frunk, and
> much lower performance?

Then people wouldn’t buy it or at least different people. Every Tesla driver I
met told me first how much fun it is to drive.

~~~
omeid2
I don't think so, most people buy Tesla based on their marketing, most people
who actually enjoy driving prefer ICE, I have test driven Tesla and they feel
nothing like a BMW M4 or a Mercedes C63 MG, it feels like driving a big go-
kart and handles rather poorly.

The interior of Tesla feels plastic and amateur for it's price range, no one
outside of the cult says nice stuff about their frame either:
[https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-model-3-design-
profit...](https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-model-3-design-
profits-20181017-story.html)

~~~
tyfon
I just ordered a model x despite being very skeptical. However I don't have
the consciousness to drive a petrol car any longer, my kids will murder me
when they grow up.

So I looked at all the viable cars, my summer house is 440 km from here and I
would like to be able to get there in an emergency on one charge and I have a
big cat that needs room + family. I've been saying for years that I want an
electric but I want a "real" car maker to build a proper one. So now we are
here with two new competitors.

The I-Pace has too short range and too little space. The E-tron has too short
range and too little space. In the end the model x was the only viable one for
my criteria.

My biggest counter before to the tesla was the build quality, but after
inspecting several model x and testing them, it is noting like the old model s
versions with rattling windows etc. It actually feels like a nice car.

~~~
badpun
> However I don't have the consciousness to drive a petrol car any longer, my
> kids will murder me when they grow up.

Is there assesment available of full environmental impact of an ICE vs
electric car in a country like US (with a certain mix of green and non-green
sources of electricity)? Generally, more stuff goes into an EV, so the
production is probably higher impact - I wonder how the all-inclusive numbers
look like.

~~~
tyfon
I don't know about the US, but since the power here is 99% hydroelectric it
should only be the manufacturing and transportation emissions (it has to be
transported from the US to Holland and then here.

------
lazyjones
The extra weight of a battery and electric drive train means at least part of
the fuel efficiency is compensated, hybrids typically weigh 200 Kg more than
their ICE counterparts.

There's another measure that would have saved everyone a lot of money and
emissions: better aerodynamics. Car makers have been building terrible designs
for decades because gasoline was cheap, but we know they could do much better.
A car with good aerodynamics (like the Prius by the way, or the Hyundai Ioniq)
saves enough fuel to not need a hybrid drive train.

~~~
kennywinker
At what speeds?

I find it hard to believe aerodynamics would make that much of a difference
for your average rush-hour commute, but maybe that’s my urban bias showing.

~~~
lazyjones
I'm not sure my simplified math is valid, but for example the F-150 frame with
Cd = 0.36 and 2.9m² frontal area vs. the Prius with Cd = 0.25 and 2.17m²
frontal area would use theoretical ~55 Wh/Km more at constant 80 Km/h (~50
mph) just due to air resistance (excluding ground friction etc.). Assuming a
total efficiency of 20% of a gasoline engine and 1 litre of gasoline
containing 8.8 KWh of energy, this means approx. 3 litres per 100 Km more
gasoline, just due to aerodynamics (not weight etc.).

For a less extreme comparison, the (2006) Mini Cooper S vs. the Prius I get
13.45 Wh/Km difference, meaning 0.7 litres per 100 Km (at constant 80 Km/h,
only due to air resistance).

Perhaps one day it'll be possible to attach the self-driving car to the back
of the car in front on boring commutes to get rid of this factor. ;-)

------
jac_no_k
I test drove the Nissan Serena e-power (series hybrid mini-van) and having all
the torque available is a killer feature. It won't win any high speed medals
but to be able to get up to 50kph (30mph) with no drama is useful. Combines
the torque happy electric car with the range capabilities and infrastructure
support of ICE.

You see this electric motor pattern in a variety of cars. The current gen
Acura NSX has the front wheels driven by the electric motors, rears driven by
an ICE engine. The Mitsubishi Outlander comes in a PHEV version, with about
50km of electric only range, switching over to ICE as needed.

While I ended up with the Nissan Leaf (battery electric vehicle, the plug in
kind), currently about one year of owner ship, I do miss for long distance, at
speed, travel of gasoline cars.

~~~
ptah
what is nissan leaf top speed over long distance?

~~~
FooHentai
160KM/h (100MPH in freedom dollars) on the flat.

~~~
ptah
160 is pretty good

------
jedberg
I drove a Tesla once for a day, and ever since, I've been longing for a car
with that much bottom end torque. The moment Honda releases a hybrid or all-
electric Odyssey I will throw money at them. Or if my kids grow out of their
car seats before then, I'll just get whatever the best all electric sedan is
at that point.

~~~
bobsil1
Tesla Model Y not big enough?

~~~
jedberg
It's even smaller than the X, and while that was almost big enough, it was a
terrible experience for the passengers. I saved $100K and got more amenities
by choosing the Odyssey over the Model X.

------
natch
Unfortunately hybrids still use gas.

All-electric charging speeds are quite good now and getting better, and any
numbers quoted today need to be rechecked a few months from now, especially
with Teslas and the Supercharger v3 upgrades rolling out.

It’s simply irresponsible to continue pushing solutions that perpetuate our
carbon based transportation system while the grid is steadily becoming more
and more green.

Cost comparisons of vehicles should take total cost of ownership into account,
not just the sticker price which can be offset by savings in other aspects of
usage.

~~~
bit_logic
When considered from a purely carbon reduction POV, long range EV like Tesla
are actually worse than short range EV+ICE like Volt, Prius Prime, etc. Some
reasons:

* A PHEV with good EV range (such as 40+miles) will cover most commutes. Also most car trips are short range (such as going to the grocery stors). These could all be pure EV miles.

* There is limited worldwide capacity for battery production and battery price is still high. The amount of batteries in a single Tesla could be used for 10 PHEV cars.

Perfect is the enemy of good. If a PHEV can get most of its miles as EV and an
occasional trip using ICE, the effect on carbon reduction is almost as good as
a pure EV with much fewer battery costs. Also the weaknesses of batteries
(such as long charge time compared to filling a gas tank) don't matter for a
PHEV. And it's a great fit for the current state of EV charging
infrastructure. A level 1 charger (regular 120 volt plug) can charge a typical
PHEV car from empty to full overnight. It would be much simpler and less
costly to get regular 120 volt plugs installed into all parking spots in an
apartment compared to trying to get level 2 (240volt) plugs.

~~~
natch
That’s some pretty tortured logic. The time for hybrids was 10, 20 years ago.
Now we don’t have much time left to transition.

The solution to the battery production capacity problem isn’t going to be to
throw up our hands and say “oh well, guess we have to make compromised cars.”

The solution is to figure it out and increase battery production radically.
10,000 fold if need be. Nobody is saying it will be easy. Weak solutions with
highly polluting smaller engines (yes, small engines pollute much more per
mile and even per gallon used) are fine in some cases temporarily for filling
some of the gaps but they aren’t going to take us where we need to get to with
emission reduction.

------
jhoechtl
It's a shame to the author of the article or the poster that so many people
comment without having actually read the article, based on the replies. The
article is not about EV in general, not about Tesla in particular. It's about
series hybrids which are the most economic way to design an EV, combining the
capability of short time power spikes and long range.

Now my contribution to the article is that large mining vehicles have used
this principle since quite some time. The largest slag trucks in the world are
all operating according to this principle so it's not that new.

Would love to check out a car operating to that principle!

------
zdragnar
I dream of a hybrid or all-electric pickup truck. The geography+climate around
my house, in combination with the types of hobby work I do (frequent hauling
of logs and stone) make owning anything smaller than a crossover SUV foolish,
and even those won't be able to get out of the driveway some days in winter.
In short, a 4 wheel drive + good ground clearance is a must, and hauling
capacity is a great bonus.

Alas, new pickup trucks that are worth owning for my needs are typically in
the $45-60k+ range, and I don't have high hopes that hybrid or all-electric
will be kind to the sticker price either.

~~~
taylorfinley
My dream vehicle is the Bollinger B-1, an electric off-road utilitarian
truck/suv. You can open the front and back tailgates and stab lumber or a
telephone pole right through the whole vehicle. Wish I had the funds.

~~~
zdragnar
I hadn't known about the Bollinger B-1 or B-2 yet! Sadly, the design is...
well, hideous (at least, that's what my wife would say). The one thing I
really like about it (aside from the cargo volume) is that it looks like it
sits up high like a proper suv / pickup should.

Maybe it's just the perspective of the few pictures I've seen, but the Rivian
truck doesn't quite seem to have as much ground clearance as I would like.
When your driveway is a half mile long and you get caught on your way home
from an emergency run to the veterinarian by a blizzard, getting stuck in a
drift at the end of the driveway really, really, really, really sucks (yes,
that happened). Carrying a 30lb dog with vertigo that far in 10 foot
visibility isn't what I would call fun at all.

------
bsder
And, yet, GM just quit producing the Volt.

The economics apparently don't support hybrid for very long.

~~~
nradov
More like people don't want cramped penalty box sedans. If GM had built the
Voltec drivetrain into a more practical crossover SUV it would have sold
better.

~~~
village-idiot
I’ll never understand america’s Love of the crossover. Sedans just drive so
much better.

~~~
AmVess
More room for passengers and items. General versatility. A Honda CR-V with the
rear seats folded can pack around an amazing amount of gear. A Honda Accord
can carry much less stuff.

A CR-V also has AWD which not every sedan is available with, giving it all
season capability.

Also, the CR-V has acceptable fuel economy. 30 MPG on EPA's combined
cycle...the same as the Accord.

Also, many of them drive very well. The new CR-V is a capable vehicle at
highway speeds. No less so than an Accord.

~~~
village-idiot
And yet most Americans commute in them alone.

And they don’t drive better. They suffer worse body roll than their sedan
cousins, and in my experience have a rough ride to compensate for the
deficiencies of the chassis. Give me a sedan or hot hatch any day.

------
UglycupRawky
This would have been great if the automakers got into this seriously about 20
to 10 years ago. Now whether or not they do this, they have to make serious
effort to get to BEVs

------
aivisol
Is it common to refer gas tank as "reservoir" in English as the articles
diagrams from Wikipedia show?

~~~
asteli
It's an understood, but uncommon word choice. "Fuel tank" and "gas tank" are
the most common in American English.

------
problems
Calling a 1.5L Prius engine "expensive" is a bit of a stretch, you can buy a
lightly used engine for ~$500.

Compare with say Tesla where a single motor runs you over $3000 and they call
it "cheap".

~~~
londons_explore
I don't think 2nd hard parts prices are at all representative of the new cost
the manufacturer pays.

