
China is choking the Internet - dublinclontarf
I've been in China for just under a year, and in that time have found ever larger portions of the free internet cut off. At first it wasn't too hard to get around, using Google's cache, some web proxies and then Tor.<p>But the state is cracking down, cutting off more of these avenues. Google cache is now blocked, deep packet inspection is analysing traffic that comes from web based proxies and blocking anything... that's normally blocked. And finally Tor is being effectively tackled.<p>It's public list of access points to the Tor network is blocked, and now Tor bridges are being blocked hours and minutes after them being made available. Tor is being defeated.<p>Top this off with an ever growing list of useful websites and services being cut off; half of anything Google does, Dropbox, and now Zoho.com's services.<p>Just as I begin a small web development company based in China, we get our first customer in the U.S. and are about to start using Zoho to manage the project only to find that it's blocked (it was working yesterday dammit!).<p>What kind of damage is this doing to China's startups? I mean I can't be the only one that this is affecting?<p>I'm on a shoes-string budget and even if I had the cash I don't have a credit card that can make payments in $US to buy VPN access.<p>Sorry for the rant but first Dropbox and now this, it's getting ridiculous. Any ideas on dealing with this?
======
bcl
Quite frankly I think you are nuts for voluntarily living in China. And trying
to run a business off the books? The punishment for that is severe enough here
in the US, I cannot imagine what it is there.

The only real solution to your problem is to move to a free country. Take it
while you till have that option.

As far as technical solutions, how good are they at tracking down individual,
private VPN sessions? Setup OpenVPN on a friend's server and don't advertise
it.

~~~
garply
I voluntarily live in China and in many ways prefer living here to living in
my homeland (the US). Otherwise, why would I be here? The food's great, the
economy's great, people are friendly if you try to understand the culture,
cost of living is low, and there's plenty of interesting historical stuff all
around. Not to mention it's a very fascinating time to be here as you can see
the most populous nation on Earth rapidly undergoing social and technological
change.

Just don't get so hung up on the politics and you'll find that the water's
warm :)

~~~
Super74
Cost of living ain't low, unless you live in a village. Shanghai is more
expensive than NY. A beer is 45RMB, and that's for a Bud, not a fancy micro.
Live like a local and you forgo comfort for cost. Anything foreign or of
genuine quality is 2x the price as the western world. Even HK is a deal,
unless you have to buy or rent property.Every time I go for business, I do all
my shopping for 100% originals, not fakes. The price difference is astounding.

By not caring about the politics, you enable the problem. The CCP is making a
mint off the US and becoming unstoppable. Society is crumbling and the rights
and freedoms of the average citizens are falling as quickly. Culture? Where
does the CCP fit into that? Communism, when did that become China's culture?

Stepping on 1 billion people to raise up 300 million is not progress.

~~~
felipe
Really, you complain about China because a Bud is 45 kuai?!?! Of course
anything foreign is more expensive than the west. You realize you are in the
other side of the world, right?

About the CCP making a mint off the US: Keep in mind that is the US that's
selling treasuries.

~~~
nostromo
> Of course anything foreign is more expensive than the west. You realize you
> are in the other side of the world, right?

Actually that has more to do with Chinese currency manipulation than anything
else. By refusing to adjust their currency appropriately, foreign goods are
unaffordable to most domestics. This is the reason their economy is growing at
amazing rates -- it's not magic. Long term this will cause problems, such as
local property bubbles and potentially tariffs imposed on their exports as
other countries get pissed.

~~~
felipe
Funny how no one used to complain when it was the rich countries who dictated
the rules of the game (via the IMF).

------
SachaG
You could say that this is actually beneficial for chinese startups, because
without access to foreign alternatives chinese users are forced to use their
services. I don't think it's a coincidence if most segments of the chinese
internet are dominated by a company from China, not the USA.

The other goal that the Chinese government is achieving, is that by pushing
chinese users towards chinese companies, they make sure that they keep them
under their thumb. It's much easier for them to take down a video from Youku
than from Youtube.

~~~
potatolicious
That's slightly oversimplified I think, and risks ignoring e greater causes of
why Chinese internet companies have succeeded beyond American ones in that
market. Facebook ripoffs like Xiaonei were vastly more popular than Facebook
itself even when no block was in place.

~~~
SachaG
I didn't say that was the only cause, but I'm pretty sure it's one of the main
factors in those sites' success.

------
jenhsun
Here is a simple solution might help...Get a vacation out of China. Setup a
VPN and done.

If you love Chinese culture and freedom, you better try Taiwan. It's a
republic (100 years mostly), democratic little island with Chinese traditional
culture inside. I think if you want to do a startup for your future business
entrance into China. Taiwan might be great for you. Although the market is
small, but you can think that's an exercise/evaluation in China market. After
all, you won't sacrifice your freedom and social justice.

Oh, by the way, there will be a FTA (ECFA) coming up between China and Taiwan.
Sooner or later there will be lots of trade activities going on between the
strait.

~~~
varjag
Another vote for Taiwan.

People are friendly, the society is (mostly) free and you don't have to
compromise your conscience. Food is great, diverse and safe. Granted, local
driving habits are suicidal, but that not really different from the mainland.

The level of technical expertise around is very high. I've been doing hardware
development in Taipei, and for about any component you can source vendor's
field assistance engineer within a day.

The trade agreement though seems to be very heated topic there, with lots of
lobbying pro and contra. But ultimately it is likely to come through.

------
grandalf
Sign up for a $20 slice at slice host, install squid, and configure a ssh
tunnel to it. Tell your browser to use the tunneled proxy. Voilà.

Edit: just saw two others recommended this approach.

~~~
bcl
The problem with this is the same as for services like dropbox. If enough
people do this they will start blocking the slicehost IPs.

To be successful you need to have * IP usage distributed over a wide range *
private distribution of proxy details * ability to switch to a new proxy when
your current one is blocked

Tor tries to accomplish most of this, but from the OP's post it appears that
it is being effectively blocked, either by watching Tor entry points or by
packet inspection.

~~~
jhancock
In practice, only services that are advertising themselves as a way to get
around the firewall may get blocked. Using SSH through some arbitrary VPS
provider in the U.S., the chances of it getting blocked are very low...low, as
in I've done it for years with the same IP with no problems.

~~~
anto1ne
In practice the great firewall is still not blocking vpn, even a weak pptp is
ok. Many very well known vpn services are still not blocked, and not because
of ignorance from govt. Just search for vpn on taobao (chinese ebay), and
you'll find plenty of options.

------
voxio
Rent a VPS or dedicated server outside china and use an SSH proxy.

Linux: [http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2008/06/18/tunnel-web-and-dns-
tr...](http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2008/06/18/tunnel-web-and-dns-traffic-over-
ssh/) Windows: [http://www.dotcomunderground.com/blogs/2008/12/11/putty-
ssh-...](http://www.dotcomunderground.com/blogs/2008/12/11/putty-ssh-tunnel-
to-hide-ip/)

~~~
Bjoern
Expect everything going through the great firewall to be slow. Also I wonder
if they will allow encrypted connections over a longer period at all if they
already run a app firewall.

~~~
nicolas_t
That's what I'm doing, it's not very slow (or at least I don't really feel the
difference)...

I don't think they'll ever block encrypted connections because that would deal
a major blow to the foreign companies working here.

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kbob
How long will China tolerate VPNs? While they are an essential tool for
international business, they also completely defeat the firewall.

~~~
nicolas_t
The chinese government don't care about VPN that target people with credit
cards that can pay in US dollars because most local chinese won't have access
to that and those that do are also likely to travel abroad and be exposed to
all that information anyway...

~~~
fuckingchina
Not always. Different ISP's block different things and work/home connections
also have different rules.

Once I came home to find they blocked the port to SSH & VPN. After 1 month of
fighting with the IT management in the local building they opened it again.

~~~
vorg
Yep! The Great Firewall is only the outermost layer of blocking inside China.
The ISP blocks plenty: only last week they suspended my account for a few
days, probably as a "threat". It seems officials develop connections with the
ISP's to collect surfing histories of customers these officials have an
interest in. There's no concept of "providing an internet service to
customers" in the minds of the ISP managers. If you use a Chinese ISP for any
sort of web-hosting, be aware it may be vandalized by anyone willing to pay
100 rmb (i.e. 15 US dollars).

------
jacquesm
Well, since you've been in China less than a year and you're finding out that
it hampers your ability to run a business, why not state loud & clear to the
government they'll be losing your business and move out?

It's not like you don't have options, as opposed to the majority of the
Chinese population, for who moving out is not an option.

~~~
dublinclontarf
Actually I came here because my wife missed home, and the business isn't
official(that is, isn't registered which because I'm not Chinese takes a lot
of time and money and could very well be flat out rejected, have a read of
some posts at China Law Blog <http://www.chinalawblog.com/> , they cover the
details).

Basically this is something I've just gone ahead and started, will work my ass
off to make work, and if it does, and is worth while then I'll go official.

~~~
jacquesm
Ok. how about your own very private VPN to a machine abroad somehwere ?

I'm willing to host it for free for you if you play nice just to get you out
of the bind you're in.

Mail me if you're game.

~~~
dublinclontarf
Got it, thanks, working great.

~~~
mkramlich
One down, one billion to go? :)

------
fuckingchina
I also run a web company in Beijing, and feel your pain. Quite simply things
like google groups which help in work, and access to coding/design blogs and
material/advice. It's a fucking nightmare and pisses me off to no end.

I wake up, and click through HN feeds and 30% of them don't work. Even with a
proxy you have to connect which might mess with your other settings, refresh,
links come in slow. Then you need to disconnect since most VPN's tunnel ALL
traffic via their servers. You are also logged off MSN so any conversations go
missing.

China is like IE6. Only worse.

------
Super74
As I write this I too am having to go through a VPN to access the world. Even
when it works properly, I constantly have to "play the VPN game."

I really don't have the time to list out every item from jhancock that I
disagree with, but pretty much all of them made me grimace. And I find it
poignant that he no longer lives here. I too live in Shanghai and have for the
past 5 years. I came here looking for another view on life and to see what all
the media fuss was about.

Don't get me wrong, I love the food, the excitement of living in a foreign
country, have a wonderful chinese wife and in-laws and now take the good with
the bad. But I now see why the US is #1 in many areas and continues to bring
positivity to the world, for the most part.

I fully understand why millions of people attempt to immigrate to the US every
year. Clean water, clean air, freedom to buy property, move where you like and
a legal system that can be counted on. Nothing is perfect and there are
exceptions, but China is a land with no law and it really never was. What the
emperor wanted, he got. Contracts mean nothing, police cannot be counted on
for much, other than brokering bribes between parties on the street and judges
feel if you are in front of them, you did something wrong, regardless of the
situation.

I have run my own business as well, legally, and have seen actions on part of
my partners and customers that have blown my mind. The scams and lies now make
me smile and I take them as lessons on what a person can do. It is the wild
west over here.

As for the internet service, forget about it. Without SLAs, your provider is
obligated to give you nothing. Either pay or they turn off your service. My
home service is 150RMB/ month, my office, 2500RMB/ month because I am in an
office building and they think we can afford more. My home service works above
and beyond my best day in the office.

IP also means nothing, so the West continues to get raped over anything that
might bring a profit from SW to design to web 2.0 opportunities. It's about
block and copy and we are letting them step all over the WTO guidelines.
Cisco? MS? Those sell-outs? They built the great firewall! I can tell you,
they have not made more money than they have invested, but they will never
admit it. Everyones' hope to finally make a buck someday in the future over
here. The dream of any foreign company.....that never comes. Ask Grumman. Ask
Pepsi. Ask GM with their 49/50 joint venture.

The air smells, the water putrid and cars drive on the sidewalk. Oh, and what
is a red light? A color. And this is in their greatest international city. The
rest of the country dives into the 18th century. I have been from top to
bottom.

US creativity and ingenuity in technologies, film, music , popular trends,
fashion, social improvements were all built on a legal system that has lasted
over 200 years and continues to roll with the punches. China? The CCP just hit
60 and they still don't know what to call themselves. Communist? Socialist?
Quasi-capitalist? A little copy of all of them. That's confusion, not
progress.

Mark my words, we will be dealing with the worst kind of monster, an enabled
one. I am talking about the CCP, not the Chinese people themselves. Know the
difference. Blocking the internet is nothing, remember Tienanmen? They killed
their own students and that says it all. Those leaders are still in power and
are about to "elect" their children in 2012.

Well, I guess I did cover most of his comments. ha! And by the way, this
summer, I will be finally coming home for good and will kiss the ground of a
National Park when I do.

~~~
mcantelon
America is better off currently mostly because it is newer. As time goes on
the US will become more and more like China: more corruption, more pollution,
less human rights.

~~~
DeusExMachina
I really don't think so. America can be "new", but Europe is much more old.

We are certainly having some problems on these topics, but we are far from
being corrupted, polluted and without human rights. Especially in the northern
european country, that are a big example of legality, human and civil rights
and environmentally directed mindset.

I think that it's not a matter of how old a country is. To cite another
example I know well, Italy is far worse than Europe, despite being first
world, because, as a country, is really young (150 years compared to centuries
for all other european countries).

------
f1x3r
3 options :

1 - Playball 2 - Dodgeball 3 - Run ...

------
siculars
I've said this in other China related threads but I think China will just end
up black-holing themselves.

~~~
jacquesm
And risk a huge hit to their economy?

------
elai
There are so many things that will require us dollars, euros, whatever over
credit cards for your business anyway, so get a card that can do currency
exchange anyway?

------
jhancock
You simply need someone to give you SSH access to a server outside China.
Setup a SOCKS proxy through SSH and you can get anywhere you want.

Using some SaaS from inside China can be a problem (even with your SSH tunnel)
due to latency and bandwidth. Find other tools. Folks have been building
Internet companies for quite some time without needing cool JavaScript SaaS
collaborative cloud thingies.

~~~
jacquesm
Already done. I gave him an account on one of my machines, it's up and
running.

------
iamwil
I don't know that it damages their startups. If anything, they make me-too
products that mimic those here for their own domestic market.

------
braindead_in
There seems to be a great market DPI and other "security" focused
technologies. You can always sell such products to Governments.

That being said, I find it hard to believe that the internet can be censored
and regulated. It just takes too much time and effort to be worth it. Whatever
the technology used, there will always be workarounds. There is no such thing
as foolproof technology.

More and more its seems like a big con. The Government wanted it and some
smart guy told them it can be done. He must be making a lot of money now.

~~~
hga
The ruling class of the PRC is currently willing to keep power _by any means
necessary_.

I'm hesitant to bet against a ruling class while it still maintains its own
Gulag (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai>) and gets 65% of the country's
organs for transplant from those it executes
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_in_the_People%...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China)).

Yes, _someday_ it will likely all come tumbling down, although I think that
history shows that tends to happen when the ruling class loses the will to
engage in such extremes. Or if its own history is any guide it might split
apart again.

But in the meanwhile they clearly think its worth the time and effort. And
little mammals like us startup types need to be careful to avoid getting
trampled underfoot.

~~~
jhancock
Why does it have to come tumbling down? Can't you see a way forward where
things improve without violence? There isn't one ruling class. I've seen
government power change several times in Shanghai and at the national level
over 10 years. You sound very pessimistic. What are doing to make the world a
better place?

Here are a few suggestions:

* If you are a Chinese national, go home and become a member of the party, vote, and get involved in making your country better.

* If you have a method to fix one of the many problem in China (pollution, energy, etc.) you should go show it to the person in the Chinese gov that handles such policy. If you've got a great solution, I can get you touch with people that will listen.

~~~
hga
It doesn't _have_ to happen with (a lot of) violence. The final denouncement
of the Soviet Union was fantastically non-violent compared to what just about
everyone expected.

But authoritarian regimes like the PRC's aren't very stable, they have
legitimacy problems, succession problems, sooner or latter they tend to
"tumble down".

The very fact that the ruling class is spending so much effort keeping a lid
on things by continuing to build the Great Firewall of China (with all its
collateral damage as we're discussing here), preventing _any_ alternative
forms of civil society from getting big (organized religion, Falun Gong ...
are there even Chamber's of Commerce that are independent of the
government???) tells us important things.

And then there are the looming demographic issues. The One-Child Policy is
leading to a nasty 4-2-1 generational aging---4 grandparents have 2 parents
who have 1 child ... to support all the parents---and a nasty male to female
ratio imbalance. Who's going to support those parents in their old age? Who
are those unmatched 10s of millions of men going to marry? What happens if one
or neither of those problems get solved?

Energy doesn't seem to be a big problem for the PRC (is the Earth about to run
out of coal, uranium, etc.?). Pollution ... well, wealth and the rule of law
are what solved it in the developed nations. We'll see how the wealth game
continues in the PRC, but I don't see any possibility of a sudden outbreak of
the rule of law.

------
seanlinmt
It will always be an unending battle between hackers and the 'filterers'.

Actually, I wonder if there's another motive behind the filtering. I reckon by
blocking access to certain foreign sites, it is actually giving opportunities
to the locals to come up with their own home-brewed version of the service.
The government is helping you kill off foreign competition.

Maybe it should be a case of "when there's a big problem, there's a big
opportunity."

------
joubert
Move to Hong Kong?

~~~
Bjoern
The inet connection into mainland from that route is very slow.

------
xster
+10 points for HN I don't agree with a lot of points of view here but I'm so
glad it's happening here on HN rather than on Digg or something. Almost
everyone who expresses their political views have been in China or does
business in China rather than just repeating what fox news said.

I have gained new respects for HN

------
garply
dublinclontarf, I live in and run a business in China. I solve my problems
with a VPN. I find the GFW an annoyance, but not a huge one. It mostly just
means my connection is slower when I access certain sites. Do you live in
Beijing? I'd be happy to meet up with you if you're in the area.

~~~
fuckingchina
I live in Beijing, post away

~~~
vorg
You mean: "Jingapore"

------
nfriedly
How much does a US-based VPN service cost? What would be a reasonable price?

If any China-based hackers are interested, I'd consider setting one up for a
price on the short side of fair.

------
theprodigy
I am well schooled in foreign policy, political and economic strategy. People
have to realize that at this point in time China can't have completely free
informational channels, as we enjoy here in America.

You have millions of rural uneducated people in china that if give the right
motivation can destabalize the country. To prevent that destabalization from
happening you have to control informational channels and the information being
delivered on it, especially when China is going through a transitional period.

At the macro level on of the biggest threats to globalization is the
integration of China into the global system.

------
Super74
If nothing else, I think we can all agree that the "China" topic can bring an
emotionally heated debate and it's great to have the platform to discuss such
issues. Thanks to pg for that! Forums such as these are not as common in the
rest of the world as one could naively believe. But to bring this back to
dublinclontarf 's original comment, I will write my last words on the subject.

As we are becoming more and more dependent on this thing called the internet,
we must begin to create and offer the same types of securities, rights of
access, usage and opportunities to the world, equally. Under the guidelines of
free trade, like the WTO, we should have these already in place in some areas
As online businesses are businesses, none the less, they should be given their
due protection.

By restricting internet businesses from others and controlling what can and
cannot be said on them is wrong. As China grows to become more powerful and
has more ability to control their internet, I can only see a darker future for
the state of freedom in China.

What we see now, are only examples of the type of governing and leadership in
the CCP today. Human rights, free speech, social stability and environmental
well-being all grow from the same tree. That tree looks to be quite unhealthy.

Bottom line, you do not have the freedom to discuss what you like on the
internet in China. Period. Do so and you risk anything from losing a business
license or police harassment to imprisonment or worse, in extreme cases. You
do not have complete access to the online businesses being created daily
across the globe. These are facts.

These freedoms that we take for granted in the US (I am an American) come from
a basis of law and order. As I said before it is not perfect. Nothing humans
create is. But from that law, we have much prosperity. the clean air comes
from regulations and restrictions on wanton over-development, national parks
have come from the common man fighting big business to protect something pure.
By the way, even our president had to use his constitutional power to save one
of the world's most precious gifts, the Grand Canyon, from the might of big
business. And millions of immigrants have found a home to raise their families
and prosper in their own unique ways.

Governments that oppress these freedoms and deny those rights have never fully
grown to become world powers and beacons of hope. They made money and won some
wars, but were never considered safe havens.

The problems associated with Internet and Freedom in China are merely symptoms
of larger issues looming on the horizon. As we build this world wide web ever
larger and stronger, we will see just how those two ideas are so intertwined.

------
doki_pen
For 20USD/mo you can setup a VPS and create your own vpn service using
openswan. Is 20USD/mo too much?

~~~
hga
From the original posting:

" _[...] even if I had the cash I don't have a credit card that can make
payments in $US to buy VPN access_ "

And avoiding a paper trail is wise if things eventually get ugly.

------
Super74
By the way the, VPNs of choice for China are Skydur and Freedur. Cheap and
reliable.

------
crazydiamond
Sorry to hear this. Can't you move out ? Why China - or is there no option.
Can you not split some work with another Asian country - India for example ?

------
rubyrescue
i've got a proxy or two you can use in the states, email me.

------
p0larboy
dude i'm in china too.. Freegate for the win

------
friendstock
move to Taiwan?

~~~
elai
Moving to taiwan/hk/macau and taking cheap flights to the mainland could be a
good alternative.

------
mkramlich
I think it's your fault for choosing to move to China then starting a web
business that needs US access. It was very well known what China was like with
respect to the web before you did this. It's a bit like moving to the North
Pole to start a beach resort then complaining about how cold it is, all the
snow, etc.

~~~
vorg
In fact China gradually liberalized the internet in the months and years
leading up to the Aug 2008 Olympics, and there was virtually no blocking from
Aug 2008 to March 2009. Many foreigners here thought the Chinese had seen some
sense. But then the restrictions started piling on. The ones I noticed:
Youtube in March 2009, Blogspot in May 2009, Google Groups around Nov 2009.

------
dnsworks
The common theme about doing business in China is that China is very adept at
making sure that money invested into China never, ever leaves the great
financial wall of China.

------
medecau
Protest!

~~~
FluidDjango
But be prepared to die under the treads of a tank.

~~~
jacquesm
The Tiananmen Square protests were in 1989, well before the rise of widespread
internet usage, I wonder if given the speed with which information moves
around these days if the government of China would risk a second confrontation
in the public eye like that.

While the OP states clearly that the government is doing a lot to crack down
on communication with foreign entities I can't help but think that
communication inside China is still on average a lot faster today than it was
in 1989.

Are mesh networks illegal in China?

~~~
Supermighty
I think you're correct, but China still tries its best to crack down on this.
Remember the iPhone is sold in China without wifi. Probably to cut down on
this exactly.

------
geek_silk
china is a f __*ing country

~~~
juvenn
Please clarify, it's the _government_ , not all Chinese people, who can be as
friendly and kindly as every faithful human on the earth.

~~~
vorg
The government is made up of people. After living in China for a while, you
soon find some Chinese people are friendly to your face, but are monitoring
your emails thru your ISP, or tracking your movements around the city, or
arranging for a breakin at your apartment. And these are young Chinese, just
doing what their seniors showed them. Young Chinese don't have the concept in
their minds that internet blocking harms innovation, and will do the same in
government when they replace their elders.

------
simonjoe
Move away from china. There's nothing for us there.

------
baby
Well. You're obviously not chinese. It is not your role to play.

