
Public university lets 79 IT workers go after they train outsourced replacements - bcaulfield
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/public-university-lays-off-79-it-workers-after-they-train-h-1b-replacements/
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trendia
I have no problem with this outsourcing as long as they first outsource the
football coach and the President's personal administrative staff.

On second thought, why would the University President neef to be in campus
anyway? I'm sure someone in India can do just as good a job. And if they
can't, we'll just force the President to train them to get severance pay.

~~~
dpark
> _as long as they first outsource the football coach and the President 's
> personal administrative staff._

This is bitter and pointless. At many (most?) US universities with football
programs, the program is with cost neutral or profitable.

Saying that the president should outsource his staff isn't compelling. You
should be making an argument for why outsourcing IT is bad if that's what you
think, not just saying "well then outsource this other thing!" as if that's an
argument. Or will you actually be happy if the president outsources his/her
staff?

~~~
trendia
There are two points to my argument:

1) the administration cannot properly value IT because they (likely) do not
understand how it works

2) the administration likely values their own staff and their athletics much
more than the revenue they generate, and thus would never outsource those
staff even if it was costing the school a lot

Regarding (1), I would point out that it's unlikely they realize how
inefficient having remote IT can be, but they'd realize how inefficient it
would be to have remote coaching. For instance, the reason that you wouldn't
outsource a football coach is that they need to have direct, personal
communication with their team. Having someone in a foreign country "coach"
your team would be very unproductive. Likewise, a President in another country
would never be able to keep up with the many meetings with professors, deans,
and bureaucrats that keep the school running.

So, my point is more that a President would easily recognize the problems in
outsourcing certain jobs, but not realize that many of the same problems will
occur when you outsource IT. The truth is that infrastructure is often
extremely complicated, with many interdependent features. But when you aren't
in the same location, you cannot as easily manage it.

~~~
dpark
> _the administration cannot properly value IT because they (likely) do not
> understand how it works_

If they cannot value IT then you _should_ expect them to contract it to the
lowest bidder. You don't pay a premium for something you don't value.

~~~
orbitingpluto
Well it's a university. Maybe the president should put in some effort?

Outsourcing IT is one of those things that seriously diminishes the academic
credibility of a educational institution. Outsourcing IT is something I would
expect from, say, ITT Technical Institute or Trump University.

~~~
dpark
I'm not saying they should outsource. I'm saying that if you start with the
claim that "the administration cannot properly value IT", the logical
conclusion is outsourcing. Don't start by assuming incompetence if the goal is
to argue in favor of a sound decision. Make a real argument in favor of in-
house staff. Basically calling the administration incompetent is not an
argument against the decision.

~~~
orbitingpluto
I already did in my second paragraph.

But if you need the obvious answer: Outsourcing IT in an academic institution
where ostensibly the operation of said infrastructure should be a valuable
topic for research means that somebody isn't thinking.

Not to mention the issue of outsourcing out of country private data.

There are more obvious answers also. It all depends whether you're thinking
about long term success or just the next quarter.

~~~
dpark
> _Outsourcing IT in an academic institution where ostensibly the operation of
> said infrastructure should be a valuable topic for research means that
> somebody isn 't thinking._

IT is not a viable research topic for a medical institution.

[https://www.ucsf.edu/](https://www.ucsf.edu/)

~~~
orbitingpluto
That is the sort of attitude I would have expected to encounter from someone
in the 1990s.

This link is only two clicks away from the link that _you_ provided.

[https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2016/12/405331/ucsf-joins-multi-
un...](https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2016/12/405331/ucsf-joins-multi-university-
collaboration-agreement-facebooks-building-8)

~~~
dpark
> _That is the sort of attitude I would have expected to encounter from
> someone in the 1990s._

This is not a rebuttal.

> _This link is only two clicks away from the link that you provided._

I fail to see the relevance of this. UCSF literally has no school of computer
science or engineering. It's absurd to suggest that they should create one in
order to handle their IT needs. Also, FYI, many (most?) schools' IT
departments are separate from their actual research departments.

If UCSF decides to partner with Johnson & Johnson, will you take that as
evidence that UCSF should start a school of janitorial studies to handle their
housekeeping needs?

~~~
orbitingpluto
Medicine is interdisciplinary.

Medicine requires engineering skills. Prosthetics? How about that metal plate
holding a femur together? You think they buy that off the shelf at Wal-Mart?
Engineering is without a doubt the worst counterexample you could have
provided.

As for IT systems in medicine, just ignoring the digitizing of medical
records, there are countless improvements that can be made in medicine at the
IT level. If IT and research are completely partitioned and cannot interact,
then they aren't considering the effect of IT on medicine. That means they're
trending towards being a sub par institution.

And your facetious J&J example is still entirely applicable. Deunionization of
support and janitorial staff has caused worse overall outcomes for hospitals.
Considering how dangerous staph infections are in hospitals, you've provided
another stupid example. I'd much rather go to a hospital with unionized and
well paid janitorial services than one saving 20% in costs and profiting off
of minimum wage janitors.

Your lack of imagination makes me hope you're not in charge of anything
important.

~~~
dpark
You think the guys designing prosthetics should be administering SAP systems
for UCSF? They have the appropriate skills for this and it's a good use of
their time?

I'm not sure what you're even trying to argue about anymore. My comment was
specifically addressing the idea that universities should be funding their IT
efforts with researchers, which is in general a poor use of research dollars,
but especially for a university that literally has no relevant research
program or school. You're not even trying to respond to my actual criticism.
You're engaging in pedantry and rambling about staph infections instead.

> _Your lack of imagination makes me hope you 're not in charge of anything
> important._

Your incoherent responses and abrasiveness make be fairly confident you are
not.

~~~
orbitingpluto
"You think the guys designing prosthetics should be administering SAP systems
for UCSF?" Strawman your favourite argument? Of course I'm not arguing that.

I'm arguing that a medical academic institution shouldn't prevent possible
avenues of medical research by outsourcing key implementations of health care
to the lowest bidder. That includes janitorial, engineering, IT, ...

You don't staff janitorial or IT with researchers, but you staff it with
people who will be able to work with the researchers. Outsourced IT kills the
possibility. Thanks for the janitorial strawman. Keep in mind that doing
research with outsourced IT will likely result in the provider manipulating
data to provide whatever they think is the desired result from the client. Any
research about improving IT in medicine will have zero value.

The reason why I said I hope you're not in charge of anything is because your
statement quoted below offloads responsibility from those making decisions. It
sounds like a strategy for deflecting responsibility and blaming others for
your own lack of expertise:

"I'm saying that if you start with the claim that "the administration cannot
properly value IT", the logical conclusion is outsourcing."

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xupybd
"The university says it will save more than $30 million by hiring HCL"

Lets see how that pans out. Generally the overhead of dealing with an offshore
contractor will begin to mount.

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wl
"Public university" is true but misleading. UCSF is a teaching hospital
associated with the University of California. While it offers professional and
graduate education in the health sciences, it more closely resembles a health
care system than a public university.

~~~
Jupe
Hmmm... So foreign contractors will have IT systems-level access to HIPAA-
protected PHI data? I wonder if that is an issue in this case. (i.e. not sure
if encryption at rest is required for HIPAA data - though it probably should
be).

