
I don’t hire Junior data-scientists - linkerzx
https://medium.com/analytics-and-data/why-i-dont-hire-junior-data-scientists-b1e346363fcd
======
TrackerFF
These all seem like things you can figure out during the hiring stage. You
could be losing out on some really talented employees by simply distrusting
all junior candidates due to some prior incidents.

I've worked with some absolutely top-notch candidates straight out of college,
and some mediocre ones which plenty of experience.

~~~
linkerzx
There is always some exception to the rule. Frankly the issue is more the
number of topics one needs to learn to actually add value as a data-scientist.
Junior data scientists need a hell lot of supervision compared to analysts or
data-engineers. Most of what it takes to be a data-scientist is acquired on
the job rather than something learned in class. And yes some of that could be
checked during the interview, but that would also mean a very low pass rate
and a lot of time spent hiring on these roles. I would rather hire these
people straight out of college in role where they would have much more chance
to excel, and would need less supervision. If they are good enough then give
them more modeling tasks.

~~~
imbored
Junior anything needs a lot of supervision, it's probably _the_ defining trait
of a junior.

~~~
linkerzx
"Junior anything needs a lot of supervision, it's probably the defining trait
of a junior." \- yes, but I would argue that junior data-scientists requires
much more supervision than the same person doing a junior analyst or engineer
role.

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elbrian
If Julien Kervizic offers you a job, don't take it.

Noted.

~~~
kop316
That's essentially the tone I for from the article. I'm not sure where he
thinks his "seasoned" data scientists come from but you can either:

\- Train them yourself and then pay them a fair market value (that means
actually giving them a raise!), or \- you hire them from elsewhere.

Saying that you don't put effort into training tells me there are worse
underlying issues, and I certainly don't want to work for you.

I work for a company that puts a lot of effort in training and education into
their workforce (they paid for my BS and paid my salary while I got my MS).
For gripes that I have about working for them, they take care of their own,
mentor their, and make sure they are fairly compensated (to include raises). I
have been working for them for the past 8 years, and I intend on working for
them for the foreseeable future. That doesn't even mention that they also give
me a great work life balance, and want to see me work up the ranks internally.

Seeing articles that only reenforce that I have it pretty good where I work.

~~~
linkerzx
Hey - I am not saying not to hire or train junior people, rather hire them as
analyst or data-engineer. There is much less of learning gap in these
positions, and from there they should have a path forward to a data-scientist
position. This rather than hiring them as junior data-scientist and
essentially just paying for their education.

------
kupaka
It seems like what op is trying to say is that being a data scientist is a
cross disciplinary position, so you can't really start off as a data
scientist, rather you become one through other positions. However, their
complaints feel more like either an inability or unwillingness to make the
team a place for its members to grow. Ideally, members would be doing code
review, so issues with ugly/inefficient code can be addressed and learned
from. Getting up to speed on the organization's systems, which system to use
situationally, general philosophical thinking behind what the data is, which
problems to solve and how to solve them are definitely things that come out
when a mid-level mentors a junior, which should be a thing that happens on the
team, because it not only helps the juniors get up to speed, but it reinforces
the mid-level member's knowledge. I think that speaks to real structural
issues in how the team is set up, and if op's the head of a data team, I
wouldn't want to work for him or for a company he works at in that capacity.

~~~
linkerzx
There is no issue hiring juniors, they have a lot to learn and they should be
coached through it for sure. That mid level, help coach juniors, is also not
an issue. But I would rather hire a junior analyst or a junior engineer than a
junior data-scientist. The breadth of what they need to learn before actually
delivering value is quite vast.

I can hire an analyst or engineer and quickly they will be able to learn, get
good at something and deliver value. After 2 years they can easily grow into a
data-scientist with the good base they have had from their previous positions.

Some organization essentially rebrand analysts positions to "junior
datascientist", but I believe this make it a mismatch of expectation for
graduates getting out of school.

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not_a_cop75
There should be a follow up article "Why I don't work for Julien Kervizic"

~~~
linkerzx
Did You read the article fully, before going ad hominem?

~~~
not_a_cop75
Et tu, linkerzx?

;)

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lunias
Is this targeted at junior data scientists? Is the intent for them to know
that their code is inefficient, unformatted, overly specific, weird ass, and
wrong?

I don't disagree that large amounts of people graduating from computer science
programs are under-equipped to enter the workforce, but maybe focus on the
shortcomings of the educational system than the people coming out of it.

~~~
linkerzx
Frankly the issue is more that a lot of them are dreaming of a position that
they are not ready for, and want that from the get go.

They are generally ill equipped, but do not regard position such as analyst
and engineers which would give them the foothold they would need to enter that
position after a couple of years.

What they have to learn goes far beyond coding and entails getting a sense for
data, the business sense that goes with it, an understanding of how to put
models, etl code etc.. into production...

Most is fairly hard to teach in a classroom and rather requires practical
experience in a business context, so I think the issue is more of an
expectation issue than an educational issue. Although it is partially
exacerbated by programs such as "Msc of DataScience", that makes student
believe they would be ready for these positions straight after graduation.

~~~
imbored
The degree should get you to a point where you can actually learn the job.

You hire juniors and give them as much work as they can do with supervision.

~~~
linkerzx
"The degree should get you to a point where you can actually learn the job."

I think the question there is "how fast"?

"You hire juniors and give them as much work as they can do with supervision."
\- Agree to a large extent, the main problem there is that their expectations
don't usually match what they are ready for.

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data4lyfe
Does anyone have the cached view of this before it was deleted?

~~~
Cunso
[http://web.archive.org/web/20190812160133/https://medium.com...](http://web.archive.org/web/20190812160133/https://medium.com/analytics-
and-data/why-i-dont-hire-junior-data-scientists-b1e346363fcd)

------
hooloovoo_zoo
What's wrong with chaining try/except?

~~~
linkerzx
One or two try/except is usually fine, but when you are nesting 3+ more
try/except with the same error, the code becomes quickly unreadable.

Often you would be better off having a first look at the input to figure out
which case you should tackle, decompose the nested try/excepts into separate
function or at the very least keep it to two nested levels.

------
quickthrower2
Now a HTTP 410

------
imbored
It's a job you grow into by not working at the job.

If you can't grow people at your company then no one should work for you. That
simple.

~~~
linkerzx
It's a job you grow into by not working at the job.: Agreed! There are quite a
few paths which makes it easy to grow into, such as analyst or data/software
engineer. There is however a mismatch of expectation that you can just start
as a data-scientist out of school, which represent a steep learning curve and
that people are usually not ready for.

~~~
imbored
Oh we disagree entirely. I am openly mocking the idea that you should learn
the job by not doing it. That data scientists are just oh so special that no
one can be a junior at it.

It's ridiculous. If you can't mentor someone at the job, then that speaks to
your failures. It's not the job that's the problem.

~~~
linkerzx
You can have junior position for everything, so long as you revise your
expectations.

A lot of firm, rebrand analysts jobs to be junior data-scientists position to
essentially attract candidates, so yeah you can be "junior" at it, but it's
essentially a different job.

