
Gombe Chimpanzee War - niklasbuschmann
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War
======
RcouF1uZ4gsC
Along the same lines (but with a different species) the story of the Mapoogo
lion coalition is fascinating

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapogo_lion_coalition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapogo_lion_coalition)

It has been made into a fascinating documentary:

Brothers in Blood: The Lions of Sabi Sand

[https://www.amazon.com/Brothers-Blood-Lions-Sabi-
Sand/dp/B07...](https://www.amazon.com/Brothers-Blood-Lions-Sabi-
Sand/dp/B079PD1TG9)

(you can also find the video online for free if you search for it)

~~~
ttraub
Yes, lots of great clips about lion behavior from BBC and NatGeo on youtube,
as well as (mostly nonviolent) scenes captured by safari leaders like Rob the
Ranger.

Lions are incredibly savage toward "the other"; no intra-species solidarity
seems to exist, though there are incidents of strangers forming coalitions
even though they didn't grow up together.

Chimps increasingly are being reported to be somewhat violent and are known to
commit murder; cannibalism and rape also are not uncommon.

It's not clear, whether this behavior is continuous throughout their history
as a species, or has come to be more common because of the pressure of human
encroachment and the reduction in their population. At one time there were
millions of chimpanzees in Africa, and today there are maybe 300,000 left in
the wild.

------
INGELRII
Chimp and humans have similar levels of outgroup violence, but human ingroup
violence is much lower. In wild chimpanzee groups violence or threats of
violence are daily occurrence Young chimp males start to beat weakest females
daily when they grow enough.

~~~
seunosewa
In developing countries especially, many parents beat their children daily.
Many husbands beat their wives daily. Many teachers beat their students daily.
In traffic, motorists and touts engage in fights daily. Governments routinely
have their citizens arrested, tortured, and killed. Armed criminals rob, rape
and murder people daily. Most babies have their private parts mutilated.

All or most of the above would be classified as in-group violence by an
objective observer, so it is difficult to agree with you that our ingroup
violence as a species is much lower.

~~~
ASalazarMX
Unless you have some source, I think the "developing countries especially"
affirmation is unfounded. This happens too frequently in all countries,
developed or not.

~~~
seunosewa
If you are right, that makes my point even stronger, doesn't it?

Do you think I am being downvoted for saying we have a lot of ingroup violence
or for suggesting there is more ingroup violence in developing countries?
These seem to be uncontroversial points.

I live in Nigeria. Children get beaten here. From their media, I know it's the
same in other African countries, India, etc. Everyone accepts it and we are
proud of it. But I know that in some developed countries you can be reported
to child services for such. So I was careful not to imply that it's the same
everywhere.

~~~
ASalazarMX
Child protection services are a deterrent, yes, but not as strong as one would
think. Children usually just endure violence because they think it's normal,
or they know child protection services will break their family apart. Abusive
parents typically are denounced by other adults, like doctors or teachers.

Still, according to page 172 of this report, it seems you're right, because
UNICEF puts more effort at developing countries, although their scope covers
much more than just domestic violence:
[https://www.unicef.org/publications/index_74865.html](https://www.unicef.org/publications/index_74865.html)

------
sebastianconcpt
_A 2018 study published in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology
concluded that the Gombe War was most likely a consequence of a power struggle
between three high-ranking males, which was exacerbated by an unusual scarcity
of fertile females._

Ref:
[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.23462](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.23462)

------
exdsq
I went to a talk by Lawrence Freedman [1] in Oxford where he discussed this
war. He has a chapter dedicated to it in his book 'Strategy: A History' [2]
(which I highly recommend).

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Freedman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Freedman)
[2] [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Strategy-History-Sir-Lawrence-
Freed...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Strategy-History-Sir-Lawrence-
Freedman/dp/0199325154)

------
sbmthakur
Considering that Chimps have reached stone age, it will be interesting to see
if Chimps use any weaponns if such a war happens again.

[http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150818-chimps-living-in-
the...](http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150818-chimps-living-in-the-stone-
age)

~~~
kypro
They're smashing heavy rocks against nuts... Surely there's a huge difference
between carving a weapon and finding a rock large enough to smash open a nut.

~~~
winchling
Well, to be fair, our Stone Age did take 3 million years to complete.

------
Mbaqanga
This is simultaneously really cool and really sad.

------
dmix
There's a documentary or two of this kicking around on Youtube and elsewhere.
Much better than this wiki article.

------
farah7
I would hardly describe a conflict involving a total of 14 adult male chimps a
"war".

~~~
ggggtez
Then you don't understand chimp culture. Chimps do seriously "go to war"
against other tribes. You have to remember that humans killing humans for the
sake of "I just don't like you or your friends" is not the norm in the animal
kingdom. So yes, it really is a "chimp war", despite their relatively small
numbers.

~~~
a1369209993
I'm pretty sure they're objecting specifically to the "relatively small
numbers" part; I probably wouldn't call a conflict involving only 14 _humans_
a "war" either, culture or no culture.

~~~
garmaine
Maybe a "feud" a la the Hatfield & McCoy?

~~~
NoGravitas
Anthropologists do sometimes use the terms "feuds", "blood feuds", or
"raiding" for this type of conflict in small groups of humans.

------
hn_throwaway_99
After reading many, many stories about the absolute horrors of the natural
world, I have such a difficult time understanding a belief in a benevolent
god. After all, it is trivially easy to imagine a universe with less suffering
(but perhaps still enough hardship to drive inquisitive and motivational
behaviors), so the presence of so much unnecessary horror in nature leads me
to believe either (a) God is a sadist or (b) natural selection in the face of
scare resources is what causes this pain.

One of my favorite (or, rather, terror-inducing) examples is the parasitic
emerald wasp, which uses its paralyzing sting to turn a cockroach into a
"zombie" so it can drag it by its antenna into a burrow, then lay eggs on the
roach, and when the larvae hatch they proceed to eat the roach, but in a
specific order so that the organs necessary for survival are eaten last. Queen
Cersei from Game of Thrones couldn't come up with more nightmare-inducing
torture.

~~~
saas_sam
If the worst form of suffering you had ever encountered was a splinter on your
foot, you would make the same claims. "After reading many, many stories about
the absolute horrors of splinters, I have such a difficult time understanding
a belief in a benevolent god..."

The suffering in the natural world seems terrible to us, but it could be
nothing in the face of larger, unknown forms of suffering. We are limited by
our imaginations, having no reason to believe we have access to anything
approaching deep universal truths of suffering or divinity.

I say this as an atheist. Your argument struck me as a poor one.

~~~
tempguy9999
> We are limited by our imaginations

"we"? You don't speak for me.

You sound to me like you've had a decent life and it's you that can't imagine
(consider yourself lucky). Not everyone has your fortune.

Your argument struck me as a poor one too.

------
0x8BADF00D
The question that is unanswered is whether or not the chimpanzees were
mimicking human behavior. Or if their violent tendencies are genetic in
nature.

~~~
layoutIfNeeded
Bullshit. These chimps have never seen humans killing each other.

