
NYC Subway is replacing printed maps with low-resolution digital maps - danso
https://twitter.com/NYCTSubway/status/1166711446769676289
======
sho
I feel the tone of this tweet is needlessly hysterical. The NYC Subway is
experimenting with digital maps, OK. The first version isn't perfect, OK. And
they responded almost immediately indicating they're making improvements and
listening to feedback. Isn't that what we want? Give them a second maybe?

It's rarely a good thing when a tweet tells you more about the personality of
the tweeter than the ostensible subject at hand. Calm down, jesus.

~~~
ixtli
It’s really bizarre. There’s so much to criticize about the transit system
here but the majority of what’s done (or perhaps what bubbles up on popular
websites) is weird breathless criticism of things that either don’t matter or
are small enough to be minutiae.

\- Bring the NYC subway fully under the control of the city: remove Albany
from the decision making process so we can actually fund the system.

\- Charge based on distance.

\- Stop policing poverty. E.g. stop paying cops to arrest fare jumpers and fix
shit instead.

~~~
codyb
Charging based on distance would be a huge fuck you to the city’s most cash
strapped.

I think the single fare is one of the city’s most egalitarian features and I
hope it stays that way.

In this age of inequality further burdening those with the least is the last
thing we should be doing.

I’d much prefer a tax on residences which stay vacant for more than six months
a year, and a tax on empty store fronts encouraging store front rents to drop
enough to let back in some more Mom and Pop stops to shop instead of yet
another bank, Walgreens, or Subway.

~~~
ixtli
I should have been more clear in my comment that we need to allow the lower
classes free access to the subway. You're absolutely right that distance-based
fares with no support structures would fuck a lot of vulnerable people.

------
prepend
I suspect that these were changed because paper is missing a very important
feature desired by NYC, ads.

It seems like then most likely reason they would roll out such expensive maps
is so they can display ads and “recoup” their costs.

This would infuriate me greatly if I was rushing through the subway, trying to
figure out my stops and it switched over to an ad for a few seconds.

However, displaying in different languages would be nice.

It frustrates me when orgs, especially ngo and gov, will incur some needless
or not very necessary cost, then layer on some new burden like ads to try to
pay for the expensive new thing. Thinking critically about cost and benefit
helps in planning and avoiding these types of situations.

~~~
mcot2
Highly cynical response. It pretty clearly states in their reply that one of
the main motivations is to eventually display more real-time information like
outages and maintenance. Not easy to do with static paper maps. In fact when I
was living there, they had a bulletin board in every station that had to be
updated by a human posting a flyer when their were outages.

~~~
elondaits
Not cynical, realistic. I'm not american and was hugely surprised at how
little digital information is provided in the NYC Metro compared to other
large public transportation systems (Berlin, Paris, London) and that the few
screens I came across spend a good part of the time displaying ads instead of
service information (e.g. when the next train is coming). I understand the
need for ads, but they could perhaps have printed maps next to the ad screen
and cheap LED screens for service times or split the screen in info/ad
sections.

~~~
eigenvector
You should see the screens in the Toronto subway. About 90% of the screen area
is used for ads and 10% for next train arrival time. Example here:

[https://dynamicmedia.zuza.com/zz/m/original_/76103CB6-239C-4...](https://dynamicmedia.zuza.com/zz/m/original_/76103CB6-239C-4A13-BD36-234F00533838/met_TUFFfilmscreen_Gallery.jpg)

Oh, and the screens were provided for "free" by a media company.

~~~
kossTKR
We have those kinds of screens plastered all over public transport in
Scandinavia too.

We have an extensive public transport system especially with busses, but now
there are up to 12 screens of inescapable news and advertisements with short
blinks of actual info in each one.

It's infuriating and reminds me of the dystopian scenarios in Verhoeven
movies. I distinctly remember seeing the subway scene in total recall from
1990 and thinking, that's a bit extreme.

But here we are lol - it's amazingly dark.

------
pixelmonkey
What's sad is that the printed maps are extremely accessible, are never "out-
of-order", and cheap to print. The MTA is probably worried about re-printing &
updating the maps when routes change, but that happens pretty rarely and I
doubt the cost of reprinting/reposting exceeds the cost of digitization.

~~~
ummwhat
Considering how often some ad hoc fix is going on like "A is running the F on
this part of the route" or "only uptown service between here and there this
weekend" or "express is local for now", having maps that can instant update
and aren't misleading would be an improvement.

Not once in the last few years has every train been running on the tracks it's
supposed to run on in the way the map says they run. /rant

~~~
pixelmonkey
MyMTA (beta) app is actually pretty good for knowing about these, I find. And,
of course, it'll be way easier to push service changes to mobile apps than to
digitized screens.

~~~
sp332
Why would that be easier?

~~~
mcny
Some thoughts: You push the cost purchasing, maintaining, and upgrading of the
device to the user. You don't have to pay for the whole stack, just the
application which is basically a web service client.

------
ZoomStop
_Indicate the direction of North at street level subway exits_

As someone who vacations in NYC every few years, this would be great. Sad that
my map collection showing NYC changing over the years may have its last map
already.

~~~
nkrisc
On some of the subway platforms in downtown Chicago, they have signs on each
wall of the station at the platform that tells you what street is at each end
of the platform.

Then also on that sign they have a picture of the street there as well. So
they have a Southwest view and a Southeast view, and ext one tells you which
it is.

I grew up there though so not sure how useful it would actually be for
tourists but seemed useful.

~~~
smelendez
Chicago also puts the effective street numbers of the station, which is very
useful.

~~~
OldHand2018
You also get a compass rose embedded in the sidewalk outside of the station
[1].

But of course when the sidewalk gets replaced due to other construction
projects, it is never replaced.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/77aq9c/t...](https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/77aq9c/the_compass_rose_in_the_sidewalk_when_you_exit/)

~~~
amoitnga
this rose is so cool. I would love that here. I can never figure out where I
should walk when coming out of an unfamiliar station in manhattan. It's always
"a game"

------
zxcvbn4038
I’ve always thought MTA ought to change their slogan to “We’re walking here!”
to capitalize of regional humor and make light of all the problems they have.

They will usually reply to criticism that it’s because the subway is very
large and very old and mere mortals don’t get how complicated it is - but
funny thing was they once invited experts from other cities with very old and
large subways (London, Paris, Moscow) and they were just as perplexed why NYC
MTA has so many operational problems and why so many infrastructure repairs
had multi-decade timelines.

There are not plenty of places to still get NYC Subway maps including ones
made of plastic that are far more durable, and credit card sized maps that are
far more easy to manage and reference on a crowded train.

There are thousands of the electronic map terminals, they are all hard wired
for power and communications, and bolted or embedded in place. It’s not like
an app where you have “maps beta” and progressively improve it. Its taken
years to install those terminals (still ongoing) and it will take years more
to retrofit and upgrade them, with huge labor and materials costs, all going
to the lowest bidder and often broken apart in bizarre ways to appease the
various union interests (ladder placing needs dedicated workers apparently).
They really need to nail the functionality and usability before deploying in
the field, it’s more of an afterthought in MTAs case.

You see the same issues in the myriad of incompatible and overlapping apps
they publish, each with their own aesthetics.

~~~
segfaultbuserr
What resources/budgets do NYT need to fix the subway system? Is it because the
public transport is always underfunded and/or because the bureaucracy is very
ineffective in the U.S.? Is there any decent coverage on the issues, like City
Lab's? Have any politicians pledged to solve the problems?

~~~
treebog
> Have any politicians pledged to solve the problems?

Much the opposite, unfortunately. The governor, Andrew Cuomo, is in charge of
the MTA. He 1\. Falsely claims that he is not in charge of the MTA and denies
any responsibility for its problems. 2\. Wastes resources on frivolous
projects he thinks will look good when he runs for president. For example, he
championed a project to put WiFi on buses. This was pointless for most New
Yorkers because you could already just use LTE. 3\. sometimes, similarly,
forces the MTA into idiotic schemes. See the debacle when Cuomo decided he’d
like to be the L train hero [https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/02/13/cuomos-
new-l-train-sh...](https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/02/13/cuomos-new-l-train-
shutdown-plan-is-as-bad-as-we-expected/) 4\. In April, Cuomo reportedly felt
that MTA chief (and true subway hero) Andy Byford was getting too much credit
for improving the subway and allegedly came close to firing Byford.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/nyregion/cuomo-andy-
byfor...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/nyregion/cuomo-andy-byford-
mta.amp.html)

Ultimately, the MTA is a mess because of misplaced accountability. The
governor needs to appeal to upstate voters to get elected, and only NYC people
care about the subway. Ideally, the mayor of NYC should control the MTA and be
accountable for its performance. In practice, many New Yorkers falsely believe
the mayor is in charge(!), thanks in large part to Cuomo’s misinformation
campaign in #1 above.

~~~
zxcvbn4038
They made a huge deal over WiFi in the subway, great idea, some places cell
service doesn’t work. It’s ok if your in a station and can’t get a cell
signal, but every time you get to a new station you get pulled into a new
captive portal and have to log in. By the time you do that you should be going
on to the next station. By the time you get back on your return commute your
login has expired and you get pulled into the captive portal again. Granted
that doing it right is a much bigger technological problem, but a solved
problem I’m sure - more or less the same challenge as wiring a stadium with a
hundred thousand fans in it for WiFi.

------
mensetmanusman
Cases of misused technology can be quite frustrating.

Our campus van drivers help people move between noncontiguous buildings and
they used to use a dispatcher and a radio to do real time traveling-sales-man
routing to move people around campus nodes.

A year or so ago, one of their managers had the great idea to use RideCell to
‘help’ the drivers plan their routes more effectively.

Ridecell uses high-latency GPS coordinates from on-board iPads and assumes
that nearest nodes also have short edges. The App has no idea that some
coordinates that seem close happen to have very long traffic patterns (edges)
that makes going from one to the other a very long and inefficient route to
suggest (but it does anyway).

Also, the drivers are not allowed to use the radio as often anymore because
the managers want data on how effective they are, and the RideCell app has a
horrible alert UX for new rides, placing them at the bottom of a long scroll
list.

The high-latency GPS coordinates are also interesting as you can imagine the
system telling you to pick up someone right ‘next’ to you when you are already
across campus...

------
polynomial
Given how many of these they seem to be adding to each platform, the main
issue for me is the removal of the old paper map display as opposed to
supplemental, digital kiosks.

It's not like they're going to stop printing paper maps (or are they) so
having one on display and available on the platform is useful, and far less
annoying than the lo-rez rubbish displays they've installed.

Also, the problem of digital light pollution is very real.

~~~
nerdponx
Yep, the maps on the wall would be the biggest loss.

And I wish they would dim the screens at night, especially the new and very-
bright ones at outdoor stations.

~~~
polynomial
"We are the MTA. You will be illuminated."

------
magoon
MTA’s printed NYC Subway maps are a hallmark of great design. I hope this
isn’t prelude to the end of an era in usability.

~~~
Tokkemon
Eh... they're getting very dated at this point, almost 30 years old since the
last redesign.

~~~
CogitoCogito
I’m kind of confused. You don’t seem to disagree with the previous poster’s
claim that the design was great so does that mean that you you think the
design is bad only because it’s old? What has changed in the past 30 years to
make the design bad?

------
flarg
The London Tube maps seem ideal in comparison. They are minimalist, non
geographic, and they are scaled depending on your location in the Tube
platform system. Also, they are paper.

~~~
addicted
The NY subway tried the non geographic maps in the past. There was an article
that was linked on HN about it.

It failed miserably. The NY Subway map being geographical has a lot of
excellent features that made it extremely popular.

~~~
nolok
Paris does both for reference, and it feels like both have a different
purpose, geographical maps are great when you know the place you need to go on
the city but nothing about the stations. The non geographical are great when
you know the station to get off to, but not how to reach it

~~~
addicted
I believe when the NYC subway tried that they did have both.

I think what this misses, at least as far as Manhattan is concerned, is the
grid system that already exists. Once you understand the grid, and the
relationship between the subway system and the grid, then knowing the subway
map is as good as knowing the geographic map and vice versa.

The first time I visited NYC was in 2004 before our handheld map systems. It
took me all of 15 minutes to know exactly where I needed to go and how to get
there without ever looking at a map, because my friend explained the system to
me.

A map that divorces the geographic and subway systems simply leads to the
necessity of learning 2 different things that are very intrinsically related,
and in the case of Manhattan can actually substitute for each other.

------
someexgamedev
Not sure how they are going to solve the pixel density issue without going to
interactive displays, which would be a mistake.

Malls trialed interactive maps sometime in the last decade and it was a worse
experience. One print map can service a lot of people crowded around it. Make
the interface interactive and suddenly it's only usable by one person at a
time despite being just as large as the old print map.

The right solution, if you want interactivity, is perhaps a handful of
interactive map kiosks that are much smaller and meant for one user at a time.
You could fit at least 4 of them in the space of any existing giant print map.

------
spodek
If the screens can't change at all, I agree, but non-interactive doesn't
necessarily mean not changeable.

If they can be changed, this situation is a tough call. I can see the benefit
to screens if NYCT can

\- Replace the images with emergency messages fast

\- Change the maps without the cost of sending crews

\- Save money and energy with screens (not sure which has less environmental
or financial impact, printing and replacing many maps or powering a disposable
screen)

High resolution would still beat low, though under magnification still seems
readable to me.

Glad to see NYCT at least appear open to input and a citizen so giving. They
should hire him!

~~~
CogitoCogito
> Save money and energy with screens (not sure which has less environmental or
> financial impact, printing and replacing many maps or powering a disposable
> screen)

We’re talking about replacing a paper map with a screen right? A map that’s
replaced how often? Yearly? I would personally be blown away if the screens
over their lifetime were not orders of magnitude worse environmentally.

~~~
Atheros
The map is already updated several times daily (at least twice daily) as the
system switches to late night service.

~~~
CogitoCogito
Couldn't they solve that by putting up two maps next to each other? If I'm
correct in my (baseless) assumption that the screens are orders of magnitude
worse environmentally, then having two posters wouldn't really matter.

------
jacques_chester
I am dreading the day when the overhead ads in subway cars are replaced with
screens with video ads. Absolutely dreading it.

Right now I can _read_ on the subway. I get a huge amount of reading done
commuting to and from work. But soon the colours on my page will change
constantly, there will be flickers, smash cuts, flaring and fuck me it will be
ruined. Give me the dipshit with the bluetooth speaker forever, I can wear
earplugs, but I can't wear _eye_ plugs.

~~~
odessacubbage
>eyeplugs

maybe augmented reality adblock will be what finally makes google glass-style
accessories commercially attractive.

------
bootloop
I am wondering if digital maps on screens can reach the same availability
levels as a printed paper map.

For such a system, is it more beneficial to the user to have up to date
information most of the time but be at risk to have no information in rare
situations. Or might it be better to be able to guarantee that some level of
information is available to the user at all times.

------
jancsika
Ooh, this tweet and the comments here on HN highlight some of the problems
with low-friction digital publishing.

Here's the tweet:

> Seriously? The MTA replaced printed subway maps _on this platform_ with
> super low-rez, non-interactive digital maps?

* Notice my italics-- the tweet is refreshingly careful to claim that a specific platform _at an unspecified time_ replaced the printed map _on the platform_ with a low quality digital map. We'll get back to that later.

* look how bright the low-res map looks in the zoomed out shot on the left compared to the zoomed in shot on the right. I remember reading these maps in NYC earlier this summer and though the resolution looks familiar they didn't appear anywhere as dim when I got close and read them. Something weird is going on with the camera but only in the zoomed in shot.

* that particular map is indeed non-interactive. Yet when I visited NYC I remember locals touching screens like these and then quickly moving on upon realizing they weren't interactive. Odd, right? I mean, why would residents be continually tricked by these screens?

Oh, right, NYC _also_ has interactive screens:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv9FOqgltHs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv9FOqgltHs)

Notice the familiar panning/zooming gestures plus the menu buttons at the
bottom for realtime updates for transit times. Can't be sure but the
resolution appears to be higher than what's shown in the Tweet above.

I can also confirm that these interactive digital maps are indeed on some of
the more popular subway platforms. But I have no idea of the ratio of
interactive to non-interactive screens. Does anyone here have that
information?

* While I assume the non-interactive maps are older than the interactive ones, I don't know that. Does anyone here have a source for when each kiosk was introduced?

* most of the comments here seem quite satisfied to have assumed that this single sample represents the current state of the art on all NYC platforms. Is there some evidence I'm missing to justify all these assumptions made in the other comments?

Edit: I just tried a Google search to try to find the dates these kiosks were
released, and guess what result appeared on the first page of results? You
guessed it-- the tweet quote above!

Just to clarify-- I see a tweet about kiosk quality that appears ignorant of
kiosk state of the art, do a search on Google to find out more about the state
of the art, and get back a prominent link to the tweet which lacks the
information I was after. Lucky for me I knew a priori that interactive kiosks
exist...

------
booleandilemma
And why do we value this guy’s opinions exactly?

