
Berlin’s Startup Hub Wants to Prove It’s More Than Just a Scene - rmason
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-28/berlin-s-startup-hub-wants-to-prove-it-s-more-than-just-a-scene
======
jacquesm
I re-visit Berlin several times per year and I wouldn't be surprised if the
real number is higher, there are a lot of very quiet hardworking people there
that are plugging away without any fuss on their projects and some of those
have more promise and are better thought out than quite a few of the ones that
are hyped.

~~~
throwaway1182
Spot on. We're at a 8 digit dollar valuation here after just 2 years of hard
work and nobody knows yet - as we don't hang out on shiny conferences or court
"prestigious" VCs but simply put the pedal to the metal from day one with a
kick-ass team.

Zero financing rounds and not a single name in our Crunchbase entry to date,
and we'll come in with a bang one day.

VCs were simply too slow to follow our pace so far (by now we grew out of
their typical round size & target multiple) and we'll probably grow profitable
without them.

Sociomantic did the very same thing by the way and nobody was any wiser when
they did a huge exit from nowhere. Thanks to the environment, it's still
pretty easy to bootstrap in Berlin and go after alternative financing sources
(it's starting to change though, starting at the rents).

There's still the usual Rocket copycats and some interesting SV-style
overhyped BS startups too by now that won't survive - but by and large Berlin
has a lot of humble, technically excellent and hard working startups to offer.
It's definitely going to survive the down-market to come.

~~~
shin_lao
Hello,

>We're at a 8 digit dollar valuation here after just 2 years of hard work

and

>Zero financing rounds

Are a contradiction. Valuation isn't something you come up with your executive
team or your accountant, it's the number that is deduced from an investmenet
or an acquisition.

Also, valuation is by no way a measure a success, the real measure of success
for a company is the amount of profit.

~~~
coryl
There's no rule to how to calculate valuation. You can take your profit
numbers and run them against a multiplier based on industry. Ex. using an
average of the profit to valuation ratio of the next 3 competitors.

That would be a generally fair assessment of valuation, and shows how one can
calculate valuation without direct investment by an outside party.

~~~
Scarblac
But they aren't profitable yet. How does that work with negatives?

------
elcapitan
Here's an article on the same topic, but less euphoric:

[http://www.thelocal.de/20160729/how-the-berlin-startup-
scene...](http://www.thelocal.de/20160729/how-the-berlin-startup-scene-is-
wasting-its-potential)

The author's glorification of the middle management and how it adds "efficient
communication" makes me a little skeptical. But the rest sounds accurate.

~~~
raverbashing
I disagree with some points. The hate for "no middle management" is laughable
HOWEVER the "too many cooks" situation can definitely happen

The German management style is built on many people agreeing at the same time
and doing things as good as possible which is great when you're building a
train network but not so much with software

~~~
elcapitan
Not just management, but all parts of German society. It leads to a Merkel-ish
leadership style with late, opportunistic decisions.

~~~
hengheng
You could also call it a Volkswagen approach towards innovation. Never first
to market, never anything rushed out, and do not stray away from the beaten
path until the new thing has been implemented perfectly.

~~~
allendoerfer
Buying up every brand under the sun and cutting costs by putting the same
window openers into their cars sounds reasonable to me. Tesla is innovative
and all, so was Porsche. VW does not care and just buys you. I mean, they are
running out of car companies to buy so they have to buy motorcycle
manufacturers.

~~~
elcapitan
The original VW (the bug) was innovative, but then again, that was actually a
Porsche (designed by Ferdinand Porsche) ;)

------
dpflan
Should we link to this post here?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12196525](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12196525)

"How the Berlin Startup Scene Is Wasting Its Potential"

[http://www.thelocal.de/20160729/how-the-berlin-startup-
scene...](http://www.thelocal.de/20160729/how-the-berlin-startup-scene-is-
wasting-its-potential)

~~~
camillomiller
Indeed. That post was awful, partial, shortsighted and badly written by
someone who doesn't get complexity and thinks berlin should just be a silicon
valley or London copycat. Therefore no, let's not link it anymore.

------
tormeh
Remarkably, average income in Berlin is actually growing slower than the rest
of Germany. Berlin's economy is growing faster than the rest of Germany, but
people keep arriving almost as fast as the economy grows.

------
kayoone
(Living and working in Berlin for 2 years now)

Also while salaries are relatively low, an experienced engineer and still earn
60k+ which is decent money because the city is still quite cheap. Many other
startup jobs are paid pretty poorly though.

~~~
Cenk
Numbeo agrees:

Consumer Prices in Berlin are 30.83% lower than in San Francisco, CA

Consumer Prices Including Rent in Berlin are 56.36% lower than in San
Francisco, CA

Rent Prices in Berlin are 78.16% lower than in San Francisco, CA

Restaurant Prices in Berlin are 36.88% lower than in San Francisco, CA

Groceries Prices in Berlin are 49.39% lower than in San Francisco, CA

Local Purchasing Power in Berlin is 16.50% higher than in San Francisco, CA

([http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...](http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&country2=Germany&city2=Berlin))

~~~
aianus
But it sounds like salaries are 50% lower... Also car costs are conveniently
missing from that list.

~~~
SyneRyder
I don't think car costs would be hugely relevant for Berlin, every time I've
visited Berlin the U-Bahn / S-Bahn has got me everywhere I wanted to go.
Though I can't imagine using a car in SF either - perhaps a BART/Uber vs
U-Bahn comparison would be appropriate.

------
biztos
Sometimes I wonder how much long-term damage the Samwer[0] brothers have done
to Berlin startups' being taken seriously. Not just from outside Berlin --
it's pretty common to run into someone working on "PetFoodScout24" or the
"German Snapchat" or whatever.

As has been noted elsewhere here, one of the cool things about Berlin is that
there is a "scene" if you want it but if, say, Soho House[1] isn't your idea
of cool then there's also a lot of alternative things going on. And plenty of
people who freelance while working on side projects that might grow into
startups.

The low cost of living and (AFAICT, since I'm a regular employee) the
viability of tech freelancing creates a lot of space for exploring non-obvious
ideas.

For instance, while the gentrified and hipsterfied neighborhoods have quite
high rents compared to incomes, it's still eminently possible to live for
_cheap_ in a safe and quiet neighborhood just a few subway stops from the
urban hustle & bustle. This buys you a lot of creative freedom.

[0]:
[http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-05-15/germanys-s...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-05-15/germanys-
samwer-brothers-take-their-web-copycat-act-global)

[1]: [https://www.sohohouseberlin.com/en](https://www.sohohouseberlin.com/en)

edit: typo

~~~
camillomiller
The Samwers's companies and their awful approach to company structures and
culture continue to do a lot of damage. Let's hope it's just not that long
term, and it can be flushed away with their eventual and inevitable demise.
One good thing, though, is that most of the people of the tech scene won't
consider Rocket companies as a good example of what you shouldn't do if you
want to have a thriving company culture. On the other hand, though, the idea
that one's in it for the quick money grab that may come from a nice exit is
very much ingrained in most of the "cool startuppers" here.

------
SneakerXZ
I am non-German living and working for a startup in Berlin and so far my
biggest struggle is the language barrier. If you don't know German you will be
fine in your work but outside you will feel as a stranger. You usually feel it
when you go to a doctor, you shop for something more complex, you use services
where you need to communicate or you go to government offices or when you look
for a flat.

It is possible to learn German but it requires huge effort and dedication and
not many people are capable of that.

~~~
ido
Is there anywhere else where learning the local language doesn't play the same
role?

~~~
sweezyjeezy
Pretty much every young person in the western world speaks English, so I'd say
anywhere where that is the local language.

~~~
kome
Sorry, you are really deluding yourself here. Not even in Scandinavia or in
the Netherlands - where literally everybody speaks good english - english
alone is enough.

You will always feel alienated without the local language.

~~~
k-mcgrady
> "You will always feel alienated without the local language."

My experience throughout Europe is that people generally have enough knowledge
of English that you can get through a 2 week holiday without knowing the
language. But even during those two weeks you start to learn little things to
make life a bit easier. I don't understand people who go to a foreign country
and expect to live without learning the local language. It's hard work but not
impossible and just seems arrogant.

~~~
SneakerXZ
You cannot compare holidays with actually living there. In your everyday life
you have problems that you don't experience as a tourist or did you order a
plumber to fix your pipes? Or did you buy a television that you had to return
because it was not working correctly? Try to figure out these problems with
your A1 German.

~~~
k-mcgrady
That was my point. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

1\. You may be able to do 2 weeks there without learning the language.

2\. That doesn't mean you can live there without learning the language.

------
sidcool
It's my dream to work for a start-up in Germany. I have even been learning
German for a while.

~~~
marianoguerra
if you have a EU passport or an engineering degree it's not hard.

Learning German will differentiate you if you don' have one of those.

~~~
jacquesm
Even if you don't have an EU passport or a degree it's not hard. There are
programs that target entrepreneurs especially and at least one HN'er made it
into Germany for several years running now working on his start-up. The start-
up even got some German government funding.

Learning German is useful on many levels, it will make it easier to get
through everyday life (though Germans in general will speak English quite well
official stuff tends to be in German only), it will also allow you better
access to the German market.

~~~
_of
There is the Blue card, seems easy to get compared to the U.S. "green card".

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Card_(European_Union)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Card_\(European_Union\))

~~~
SyneRyder
In addition, the Blue Card (in Germany at least) can fast-track you towards
permanent residency. If you can prove German language skills at B1 level, then
you can apply for permanent residency after just 21 months (see the section on
"level of language skills):

[http://www.bamf.de/EN/Infothek/FragenAntworten/BlaueKarteEU/...](http://www.bamf.de/EN/Infothek/FragenAntworten/BlaueKarteEU/blaue-
karte-eu-node.html)

------
cagataygurturk
Living in Berlin since 1 year. I am coming here from Barcelona and everybody
asked me if I was crazy because I was living a "super cool beach and sun" city
and going into storms.

First of all, Barcelona might seem to be cool for vacations but once you live
there, you will see that in winters it's pretty boring, people are not happy
with their lifes due to policital and economical issues. Maybe you can build
your circle with expats and isolate yourself from daily problems but I was
surrounded by local people, also knowing the language I could not isolate. It
was unbearable listening peoples' complaints about how big fucked they are
etc. Barcelona pissed me off finally. After Berlin,

\- I liked Berlin two times more than I expected. I am originally Turkish, so
the community here helps me in my day-to-day business. No, I am not living
ghetto life and avoiding that, but it's cool to be able to communicate when I
go for shopping. Now I can also communicate in German more or less, so I need
less my Turkish skills but still it helps me to feel like at home. You never
know who is Turkish there, the doctor, the police officer, the hipster
hamburger boy. So it's cool.

\- Of course economically it is much better. In Berlin you make not so less
than other parts of Germany but definitely you spend less. This is the
cheapest capital of developed EU countries. Many people already mentioned
that.

\- I like using cars. Maybe for Americans it is unbelievable but in almost all
European capitals you are punished because you have a car: Expensive parking,
so strict rules etc. Berlin is not one of them, you can use a cheap and good
car and you will need it. You can go shopping (and then you can go to the
cheapest and best one, not the nearest one to your home), you can go out of
the city etc. Having car won't hurt you here.

\- There is one thing that many people in Berlin did not discover: Poland is
one hour away. I know that country because my GF is from there. Very
occasionally we are going there to do our shopping, repair the car etc. So it
is possible to lower your spending even more exploiting this possibility. If
you have a car you should definitely do that. Also supermarkets there have
fancier stuff and very good food.

\- Well about work culture everyone already said what it should be said.
Briefly I am happy here, I think Berlin will my home for the next decades and
I recommend to everybody to give a chance. This is a city where you can live
easily.

------
codecamper
I'm considering a move to Berlin.

Anyone know if something like the Hacker Dojo exists in Berlin? A 24 / 7
hacker, coders, ideas, dreamers sort of space.

~~~
sagichmal
No, but we have several similar things. Betahaus
([http://www.betahaus.com/berlin/](http://www.betahaus.com/berlin/)) might be
the closest. There's a new one called Ahoy!
([http://ahoyberlin.com/](http://ahoyberlin.com/)) which is getting off the
ground. And there are tons of coworking facilities with their own cultures and
work feelings. Avoid the Factory, it's full of the SV brogrammer types, or
(worse) German transplants from Munich and Frankfurt playing SV dress-up.

~~~
sorenbs
I couldn't help but smile reading your description of factory because it is
mostly true. We stay there as it is extremely cheap - membership fee only
barely covers my coffee consumption :-) and because the environment is modern
and nice. Ping me if you come by again anytime soon.

~~~
sagichmal
Extremely cheap?! Last I saw, a flex desk is about 350 Eur/mon, fixed 470.
That's the most expensive coworking rate in the city as far as I know. But
maybe you got a different deal.

~~~
sorenbs
They changed the model recently. It's now 50€/mth and flex is the only option.

~~~
sagichmal
Ah! Interesting. Wonder where the rest of the money is coming from.

------
Cenk
And 1.809 of those are on AngelList:
[https://angel.co/berlin](https://angel.co/berlin)

------
jeremydavid
Are there any gay startups or gay people in startups in here? I've been living
in Berlin for the past two years and cowork every Thursday - so if you are
keen to make some new friends, shoot me an email at hi@(myusername).com

~~~
igor_filippov
[http://www.erasys.de/](http://www.erasys.de/) is kind of gay.

------
jfaucett
I worked 3 years in a Berlin startup. Here's some things I observed over that
time.

First the city itself. Berlin changed drastically and is still changing. Cost
of living, especially housing sky-rocketed over that time (1). The city has
become hipster central with many ghettos forming (Neuköln) (2), which isn't
necessarily a new problem but I saw it expand over those 3 years. If you love
hipster culture its great, if not there's little escaping it unless you can
get into a calm Viertel of which there are increasingly fewer. Also Berlin is
increasingly poorer (3) and crime is steadily on the rise (4), and this is a
palpable increase in comparison to just 4 years ago when I moved to Berlin.

But to qualify my statements, Berlin is a multicultural city like just about
every other major city in Europe - you can find and do whatever you want or
imagine. But the above are generally the things neglected by those trying to
sell Berlin as an amazing place to live your life.

Secondly, the funding and general startup environment. Here Berlin is number
one in Europe and was so even before the Brexit as the article mentions. There
is definitely a huge startup network and hub of activity, so in terms of
numbers and access to investors, cofounders, talent, there is a lot going on,
but what I think is still lacking, and this article does a good job of
mentioning it, are break-out homegrown successes - at least in terms of
notoriety, i.e. Spotify. There are indeed moderate successes, companies that
get bought out by US expanders or develop a moderately profitable business
which are homegrown.

I think there are many reasons for this, one could be we haven't had enough
time in Berlin, another one of the biggest factors I think, is that the
European market is very hard to penetrate at such a high level, there are so
many different cultures/languages, EU laws and country specific laws that
expanding is more difficult than homogenous markets like the US or China
(obviously), especially when you are a small team.

Anyways, the experience was amazing and if I could go back I wouldn't change
anything. Still Berlin is not all a bed of roses, just as its not all work and
no ecstatic elation and amazing exitement when you're building a new company.

1\. [http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/studie-zum-
wohnungsmarkt-i...](http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/studie-zum-
wohnungsmarkt-in-berlin-mieten-steigen-auf-rekordwert/12885670.html)

2\. [http://www.news.de/politik/855636121/problemviertel-in-
deuts...](http://www.news.de/politik/855636121/problemviertel-in-deutschland-
duisburg-marxloh-hamburg-eidelstedt-koeln-chorweiler-und-co-das-sind-die-
schlimmsten-ghettos/1/)

3\. [http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/arbeit-und-armut-in-
berli...](http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/arbeit-und-armut-in-berlin-wie-
sozial-ist-berlin/13669758.html)

4\. [http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/polizei-
justiz/statistik-d...](http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/polizei-
justiz/statistik-der-polizei-stadt-der-diebe-kriminalitaet-in-berlin-
drastisch-gestiegen/11409420.html)

~~~
sneak
Neukölln is not a ghetto by any means.

Source: lived there 2010-2014, am there weekly.

~~~
menor
This ^ Now it's even less ghetto, I see hipsters moving here every week. Rent
prices are also raising.

------
SyneRyder
Is there any truth to the claim that CVs in Germany must adhere to the
Lebenslauf form or they'll be thrown out (if applying to Berlin startups?)

[http://www.thelocal.de/jobs/article/47649](http://www.thelocal.de/jobs/article/47649)

[https://europass.cedefop.europa.eu/editors/en/cv/compose](https://europass.cedefop.europa.eu/editors/en/cv/compose)

~~~
Radiant
A friend who works in Germany told me that recruiters in his company discard
all CVs that use Europass template.

~~~
SyneRyder
Oh wow, that's very helpful to know. Thank you!

------
davidf18
>> Inside, the Factory is packed with all the perks of a Silicon Valley
campus: nap rooms, scooters, 3D printing stations.

Showers, showers, showers.

When working long hours, I shower to refresh myself and they are great for
people that don't go home for a day or two.

~~~
camillomiller
Why is not going home even considered a possible scenario? There is no way
that it's a good thing, unless you wanna live a myth that Silicon Valley
developed and has been portrayed as cool and "the right way to really
innovate" by too many movies.

~~~
davidf18
Even after 8 or 10 hours, a shower is refreshing and you can continue working.

When working on tight deadlines, might be too tired to drive and taxi/Uber not
always an option.

Even in science buildings at universities having nothing to do with startups,
there are showers.

~~~
nedwin
Showers also make it easy to get exercise in. Heading out for a quick run at
lunch completely resets my day but without showers I have to head home or to a
gym afterwards to freshen up.

~~~
camillomiller
This last answer makes much more sense. Making crunch-time a normal thing to
be sought after totally does not. Not seeing how this culture is problematic
really baffles me.

~~~
davidf18
Have you worked for a startup or in a situation with tight engineering or
software deadlines? I ask that because for those of us that have had to work
that situation, it is not so baffling.

------
_of
Sounds like a lot. For a comparison, how many startups are there in Silicon
Valley?

~~~
ddon
According to Angel List, it is 25K [https://angel.co/silicon-
valley](https://angel.co/silicon-valley)

------
amai
I think this video (Berlin as a Startup) is relevant:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e22vY4CWpEI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e22vY4CWpEI)

~~~
kevindeasis
Thats a very very good pitch. Thanks for sharing I actually watched the whole
thing and learned something

------
T-A
Since there has been some enthusiasm about pointing out my involuntary dupes
lately, I guess it's only fair to say...

Dupe:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12182965](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12182965)

:P

------
azeirah
I'm in Berlin today, anyone wanna show me around? Got nothing to do
otherwise...

------
randomname2
Some prominent Berlin tech startups include:

Adjust

AppLift

Ascribe

Blacklane

Clark

Clue

Contentful

Cookies App

Delivery Hero

EyeEm

Freeletics

GetYourGuide

GoButler

GoEuro

Heaven HR

HelloFresh

Jobspotting

Junique

Kitchenstories

Movinga

Nu3

Number26

OneFootball

Outfittery

Soundcloud

Thermondo

UberMetrics

.

Incubator and corporates:

.

Airbnb

Atlantic Food Labs

Axel Springer Plug & Play

FinLeap

HitFox

Houzz

Hub:Raum

Pro7 Sat1 Digital

Project A Ventures

Rocket Internet

Stripe

Techstars

Twitter

Uber

WeWork

~~~
jmngomes
You should read up on Rocket Internet, they're far from being a startup. And
Axel Springer is one of the largest publishing comapanies in Europe.

~~~
hobofan
Axel Springer Plug & Play (ASPnP) is a corporate funded accelerator just as
Hub:Raum is funded by Telekom. A large portion of the accelerator here are
structured like that.

------
flexie
What counts as one of those startups? Any new business - then its not
impressive at all. New tech companies - then it's something to notice. Or
venture backed - then the figure is really something, especially if they are
no more than 2-3 years old and have employees.

~~~
mojuba
Good point, but you probably didn't read the article. Here is something even
more impressive than the title:

 _Berlin’s startups collected €2.4 billion in venture capital last year,
according to Ernst & Young. That’s more than the total haul among startups in
London, Paris, or Stockholm, though it’s about 9 percent of Silicon Valley’s
take._

~~~
jesuschrist2
Salaries in Berlin are much lower than London. London is still the tech place
of Europe, i don't live in London, but I get contacted by UK recruiters nearly
every day, very infrequently by Germans.

------
MaxKK
Soon 2501, Lisk is coming.

------
jokoon
As a french man, this makes me sad.

------
_alexander_
Berlin is awesome!

