
MIT’s Non-Stick Coating Keeps Ketchup Flowing - mikek
http://www.fastcoexist.com/1679878
======
mikeknoop
> "We had a limited amount of materials to pick from," Smith says. "I can’t
> say what they are, but we’ve patented the hell out of it."

Wait wait wait, someone needs to explain to them what the intent of a patent
actually is.

~~~
kondro
I'm sure they've used some unique combination, treatment and application of
those materials to create this effect.

~~~
starwed
The point of a patent is that you must disclose the method in return for a
limited monopoly.

It's to encourage the sharing of techniques!

~~~
mechanical_fish
So it is. Go find their patents and read them. Deduce what you can.

The spokesman is under no obligation, legal or otherwise, to make this easier
than necessary. That is how the game is played. Nor is he a lawyer, or foolish
enough to issue an off-the-cuff statement that undercuts the work of the
actual team that has crafted the wording of the patents.

~~~
starwed
Ok, but why are you replying to me about this?

I was trying to address kondro's obvious confusion about mikeknoop's point,
not pass judgement on anyone in the article.

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gamache
Perhaps this is ignorance, but I do not want this anywhere near my food. The
FDA's said a lot of things are non-toxic over the years.

~~~
Alex3917
Knowing they FDA, they'll just ban companies from telling consumers whether or
not it's in their products.

Because if it's a medicine you might actually want to use, it's illegal unless
you have $100 million dollars to pay for testing. But if it's something that
can make food corporations money, not only doesn't it need to be tested but
it's illegal for you to even know if you're eating it.

~~~
rytis
So this is never going to fly then. Why would a food company use this coating
at all? It's not in their interest - wasted food means more money for the
company.

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TeMPOraL
> It's not in their interest - wasted food means more money for the company.

It's sick.

But I keep wondering - why no one in this industry seems to be trying to be
good and use it as a marketing advantage? "We do not try to make profits on
stealing from you by wasting materials and energy like everyone else out
there". I'd definitely try to buy as much as I could from such company.

~~~
rytis
Capitalism at its best - it's all about profit and outsmarting the
competition. There are companies out there that try to do the right stuff -
organic food, healthy stuff, etc, etc. But they struggle. They struggle
because 'the good stuff' costs more to produce, therefore they have to charge
more. Whilst the 'bad' companies sell unhealthy stuff at a lot lower price,
thus yielding better profits. Which in turn means better advertising, better
position on shelves, etc. Society is not ready for the change yet. You would
do the right thing, but I'm guessing 90% of population, just don't care.

~~~
driverdan
I think you've been misinformed about organic food. It's not healthier, isn't
necessarily better for the environment, and the profit margins are much
higher.

~~~
Retric
Modern pesticides are not particularly toxic, but they are also not completely
safe. They often break down into things like estrogen, so we know low doses
are not going to kill you but they are still biologically active. Which set's
up a cost benefit analysis of tiny positive vs significant cost.

Modern farming is more harmful to the area being farmed, but takes
significantly less land to produce the same food which in theory means you can
let more land go fallow (wild). As to profit margins farming in the US is only
profitable though subsidy's so that's just a question of government
incentives.

PS: Not that I actually shop for organic food, but it's not completely
irrational behavior to do so.

~~~
dingfeng_quek
I assume you assert that out of ignorance. Modern pesticides are extremely
toxic in small quantities, some with immediate and easily observed effects,
others with delayed and long-lasting effects.

Regulatory limits are often based on immediate observable effects. Delayed
hard-to-observe problems tend to be ignored. See the toxicity of
organophosphates and COPIND, and the history of its regulation (when
regulations were enforced; when the upper limit was revised to consider the
problems of COPIND). There are research results that suggest some Americans
have a sufficiently high dietary intake of pesticides to affect their lives.

Furthermore, for many pesticides, there's no way for the policy makers and
public to estimate its toxicity, because research is often suppressed,
dissemination of toxicity information is often suppressed, policy change is
often suppressed, etc. It's a well-established problem with the political-
economy of America.

In many less-developed-countries, MNCs like Monsanto and Bayer have used
aggressive and deceptive sales techniques and misrepresentation of product
toxicity to persuade farmers to use pesticides far in excess (over 100 times
the level of) of regulatory limits in the US. These products do get exported.
Search for such news and policy discussions in India and China.

Lastly, pesticides don't "often" break down into chemicals similar, in
biological activity, to estrogen. Pesticides can cause quick death, physical
deformities in fetuses and young children, autism, epilepsy, mental
retardation, cancer, organ failure, rashes, ulcers, can be used in biological
warfare, etc. Some pesticides take decades to breakdown; Some pesticides have
metabolites that are extremely toxic. Do refer to toxicity and metabolism
research and data when evaluating the health risks of pesticide exposure and
consumption, and/or consult an expert with little conflict of interest.

PS: Organic farm allows the use of (some classes of) pesticides as well.

~~~
Retric
_I assume you assert that out of ignorance._

No, however I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume we have a
vastly different view on what small quantities entails. You have farmers who
are basically drenched in the stuff and then the general public who get's
1/1000th of those doses. Most of the time toxicity is not a linear
relationship, feel free to go swim in a vat of phosphoric acid an ingredient
in Coca-Cola Soda Syrup if you survive feel free to report back to me on what
that was like.

~~~
Retric
PS: I was thinking about this after posting it, and the acid comment was over
the top. I hope you took as the hyperbole it was intended as, but if not I
would like to apologize.

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DanI-S
I wonder if they've tried painting this stuff on the underside of a boat?

~~~
chad_oliver
Or, you know, use wax. The primary development here is creating something that
can be approved by the FDA.

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hammock
The secret to getting ketchup out is to give it a good shake, then hit the
heel of your hand "upwards" on the top of the bottle, near where the neck
meets the body (on the 57 or not, doesn't really matter). The upward force is
what counts, and it somehow gets the ketchup to come out relatively smoothly.
Most people strike downwards, and that's why it doesn't work. If you don't
believe me, try it! Learned this trick from my uncle.

I'm guessing the functional principle here is somehow related to vacuums,
those pop-tops on the new Miller beer cans, etc.

~~~
blhack
My "secret" is to hold the bottle in my hand and swing my arm in a large arc,
using centrifugal forces to pull the ketchup towards the mouth of the bottle.

(With the cap on, obviously).

SCIENCE

~~~
cicloid
the only problem to this method is when it slips and the bottle ends up in the
neighbors window.

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sdoering
The solution here would be, to just be careful.

Sorry, but coming from Europe, we have a bit of an understanding, that
products can't be responsible for the "dumb" use of their users.

If a bottle ends in the window of your neighbor, is it your fault or the
bottles?

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biot
This reminds me of NeverWet: <http://youtu.be/7is6r6zXFDc?t=17s>

The chocolate syrup on shoe demonstration is quite compelling.

~~~
driverdan
It's a cool demo but isn't practical because you'd never use a coating like
that on clothing. It doesn't breathe which is pretty much the same as putting
your feet in plastic bags.

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j45
Somehow, this just makes it not a ketchup experience for me any longer. I want
the ketchup not to flow and to use my super powers to make them flow.

Makes me wonder if some things are meant to slow us down to enjoy them more,
whether it's getting ketchup out of the water, eating more purposefully with
chopsticks than wolfing down food, or thinking through a design before
hacking.

~~~
jsherry
From your profile ;-)

"Curiously, I'm always looking for a way to slay pain points, get more done
with less effort for everyone, and build great experiences."

~~~
j45
Haha, nice.

Ketchup that comes out on it's own is akin to a plastic squeeze bottle;
already done.

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hoprocker
I know this is juvenile, but when I read the part about how this can be used
as a spray-on coating, the first thing that came to mind was:

1\. bored teenagers 2\. bottle of transparent spray-on de-frictionizer 3\.
tens of thousands of miles of defenseless city sidewalk

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moocow01
Hmm I wonder if in the case of ketchup/condiments this will initially be less
successful than we think.

Your going to have to get consumers to learn to not accidentally dump half the
bottle out when turning it over and shaking it like you would with today's
ketchup. This sounds easy but think of all the elderly folks eating at their
favorite local diner.

I think the challenge may actually be in making it less slippery. If you can
control that then over the next 5 years you could gradually up the
slipperyness to make the learning transition more gradual for consumers.

~~~
amwelles
Not sure if you watched the mayo video as well, but I think if all the bottles
were squeeze-type, it would solve this problem pretty well.

~~~
namidark
Without the slippery coating though you end up with either that slamming
motion or a toothpaste tube effect

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troymc
There are plenty of low-tech solutions that accomplish the same thing. For
example: a ketchup syringe (but the "needle" end is wide, like those ends for
decorating cakes with icing). Or a jar like a jam jar, which you can scrape
out with a spoon. (Jam and ketchup are similar: mostly sugar, plus a bit of
fruit.)

There's a reason Heinz and others don't go with containers that empty 100%:
such containers last longer, keeping you from buying more ketchup. What they
_want_ is jars that hold on to even _more_ ketchup. Patent that!

~~~
whatusername
As said up-thread.. If you make it really slippery so that more ketchup comes
out each time -- you also have a winner.

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DigitalSea
This is amazing. Now when I hit the ketchup bottle really hard forgetting it
has a non-stick coating my plate can be covered in a whole bottle of ketchup
thus making the ketchup company more money when I have to buy another bottle.

I like hitting the ketchup bottle to get the last bit of sauce out, especially
when I do it for my girlfriend. Now what chivalrous activity will I have left
to do for my girlfriend? What's next, easy open jars? our manhood is being
taken away!

~~~
quantumstate
Too late, Duerr's have been selling them already. I was pretty impressed, they
are genuinely easy to open. [http://silvergroup.asia/blog/an-age-friendly-
packaging-innov...](http://silvergroup.asia/blog/an-age-friendly-packaging-
innovation/)

~~~
DigitalSea
Manhood, fading. Must. Reclaim. Little. Manliness. Left. Ughhh!

------
busted
I wonder if companies will embrace this as a boon to consumers or if they can
actually quantify how much money they would lose because people can get all
the product out. Also the article has no information on how much the coating
costs, or what kind of changes to the manufacturing process you'd have to make
(like having to store the bottles somewhere post-spray to 'dry' or something).
I also wonder if, in the case of the open mouth ketchup bottle, it actually
makes the experience worse for a full bottle by pouring out too fast?

In any case, it's cool and I'm actually excited for the other applications of
it. Seems like an endless stream of cool stuff comes out of MIT.

~~~
kondro
Or they'll just reduce the quantity of food in the bottle in addition to
marketing it as "easy-access" or "lower wastage" on the label.

~~~
sk5t
If they do that, then their price/(qty|mass|volume) label, mandated in US
supermarkets next to the unit price, will shoot up.

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kondro
And? If that was really important, only those products with the lowest number
would sell any units.

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codezero
Am I the only one that is suspicious of the quantity of ketchup used in the
examples? Why aren't there examples with a nearly full, or even half full
container?

This would affect the dynamics enough that I would be interested in seeing
what happens.

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geuis
Its the remnants of ketchup and mayo that are the hardest to get out of a
bottle. That's what the small amounts are demonstrating. You don't really have
a problem getting the contents out of a full bottle.

~~~
codezero
I'll take your word for it since I don't have a bottle handy, but I am still
suspicious. I have had issues getting ketchup out of a nearly full bottle
because it's difficult for the air to flow back into the bottle as ketchup
comes out.

~~~
muyuu
Some of that effect will obviously still be there. Vacuum is not fixed by any
coating and the liquid is viscous enough for bubbles not to easily form.

So yep, maybe it will need a tap or two at the beginning to make it flow.

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mattmaroon
If I were Heinz, why would I want this product? I'd rather people throw away
the ketchup bottle with some of the ketchup still in it since that leads to
higher sales for me. They're still paying me to throw that ketchup away.

~~~
derefr
For the same reason a potato-chip company would make "sustainable" chip-bags
out of special, thick, expensive paper, rather than cheap plastic: it gives
them the cachet of being "organic" and "environmentally conscious" and
"sustainable", which targets a market segment they might have been previously
missing (though note that they only use said bags on their supposedly
"healthy" baked chips--Heinz might do the same if they adopted this, making a
special "eco-ketchup" with this tech and a different design.)

------
cup
This somehow really drove home the opportunities some people have that others
don't. The fact that such a competition exists at a university level for
students makes me incredibly envious. I go to one of the highest ranking
universities in my country and there is no such competition or even idea to
push students to collaborate and compete at such a high level. I feel like I'm
at a complete intellectual disadvantage to MIT students to a degree. How must
people feel who didn't even have the opportunity to complete secondary school
feel? The world might be flattening but it has a long long way to go.

~~~
tikhonj
I don't know. I think these sorts of competitions are actually becoming more
and more common. I've read about other ones at various schools, and I think
they even had some similar competitions at my school. I certainly remember
advertisements for some sort of tech startup-geared competition as well as
something similar focused on Bioengineering.

Maybe you just didn't hear about it at your school? The one at MIT and the
Bioengineering one I saw here were both aimed at PhD students and Postdocs
rather than undergrads, so that could be a factor as well.

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Cyndre
I am already thinking of far better uses for this then ketchup.

How about spraying inside of fire hoses, pumps etc? The main benefit is the
massive reduced friction. More energy efficient pumps, less wear and tear etc.

I would then extrapolate the idea of smooth flowing ketchup to air and wonder
if this would reduce the drag caused by air if you coated your car in it etc.

No bugs sticking to your cars front window. Water and dirt don't stick to your
paint etc.

And this is just after a few minutes of thinking of the potential uses for it.

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dredmorbius
Oddly, the two things I think of when I consider ketchup are Bob "Red Hat"
Young's observation that "nobody really _likes_ ketchup", and that it's a
highly processed sugary paste. Haven't bought it in years.

Dittos mayo.

And watching either of them slither around in those non-stick bottles is kinda
gross.

The slippery tech is pretty cool though, and I like the "hrm, try this on a
boat" comment. Though ultimately hull-speed kills you there.

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spitfire
If this is for real it has major implications in the aviation industry. Icing
is a major safety factor and grounds/diverts flights regularly. If you can get
rid of the heavy, expensive anti-ice systems on aircraft with just a coating
you'll get significant safety and cost savings benefits.

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samstave
Wow, I was just thinking of this the other day. I was opening honey packets
into my yogurt and thought that some super-hydrophobic coating would get all
that honey out of there.

This is really cool - it would be nice to see it coating piping as well.

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meej
I think this would be great applied to bottles for personal care products like
shampoo, conditioner, and hand lotion. I also wonder if they might be able use
it to make a toothpaste tube you can get all the toothpaste out of...

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quadrahelix
Surprised no one mentioned NeverWet.

Seems like they just coated the inside of the bottle with this:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7is6r6zXFDc>

Edit: Someone mentioned NeverWet. Never mind.

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bobsy
Ah, nothing like solving those pesky first world problems.

I have always got the plastic bottle of ketchup. For the final third you just
leave it upside down. The ketchup pools by the cap. Fancy tech not required.

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mlader
I'm curious if bottles using this coating will be recyclable. Reducing food
waste is great, but if it's at the expense of recycling plastics or glass I'm
not sure if there is a net benefit.

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shimon_e
Somewhere in China, half a dozen factories have figured out how to copy this
and are churning out at maximum capacity.

The real question is why didn't Teflon come up with this?

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TwoBit
My guess is that this will be hard to commercialize, because that coating is
going to need to resist being heated to X degrees without tainting the food.

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baseh
yay more ketchup on my fries, while i forego the only exercise I get, which is
hitting and shaking the ketchup bottle

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fuzzythinker
I want it on my toilet so I will never have to scrub it.

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royalghost
Good stuff! Good to see these kind of news on Hacker News where real world
problems are solved.

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obilgic
This can be really powerful marketing tool.

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chadhietala
Another 1st world problem solved.

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georgieporgie
I would like to see this applied to the inside of engine oil bottles so that
I'm not tossing out a few ounces of expensive synthetic every time I change my
oil. Assuming it's inert and stable at temperature, I'd also like to see it
inside the oil pan and oil galleys inside the engine.

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technosex
First thing that came to mind was this gif: <http://i.imgur.com/S9C9P.gif>

