
Where does a tip to an Amazon driver go? Sometimes, toward the driver's base pay - anonymfus
https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-amazon-drivers-tips-20190207-story.html
======
beering
I can't wait for tipping culture to end - it's just a way for service workers
to be abused in a multitude of ways.

I only wish more workers would realize that it will be better for them
collectively to get upset at their employers for not paying them fairly
instead of the last customer who stiffed them on the tip.

~~~
golergka
Tipping serves a purpose. It's a clear, precise and immediate communication
channel about customer satisfaction. If you get bad service, just don't leave
a tip - it doesn't have any social friction of calling the manager or anything
like that. You, as a customer, feel that you're in control.

Why would you want to get rid of that?

~~~
michaelt
If I give my delivery driver $5 and his employer drops his pay by $5 as if I'd
tipped $0, the communication channel is muted.

Maybe I'm deceived into _thinking_ I'm rewarding good performance, but the
truth is I'm a chump making a voluntary donation to some billionaire CEO's pay
packet.

Why would anyone volunteer to be taken for a fool like that?

~~~
golergka
I completely agree with you, but your point is not about tipping, it's about
this particular scam. Why are you replying as if I'm defending it? There's no
argument to be had about this.

~~~
Dylan16807
Have you considered what article you're posting on?

Also tipping culture enables companies to do things like this.

~~~
darkpuma
Credit card culture enables this. When you tip with cash, you cut out the
corporate middle man.

~~~
Dylan16807
The same thing could happen with cash if the system was set up a little bit
differently.

~~~
darkpuma
No not really. Hand the cash to the person you're tipping, nobody else.

------
deogeo
Again I am puzzled how this does not count as fraud - a felony with a jail
term measured in years.

And no, re-defining 'tip' to mean whatever Amazon wants it to mean somewhere
in the Terms of Service fine print does not absolve them.

~~~
doctorpangloss
In the food service industry, for example, your tips almost always reduce base
pay until a federal, legal minimum different from the better known minimum
wage.

I’m not saying that’s just. Companies abuse service workers, and use some
legalistic convention to do so.

Would you go suing basically every restaurant for fraud though? Justice here
really means legislating the wages and tips laws to be more generous to
workers.

~~~
thatoneuser
That's not how it works. They get a base pay without considering tips. If they
get tips they get more. They don't get a base pay that gets eaten away by tips
until the tips exceed their pay, otherwise why would anyone bother to work
harder for the tips if they just get the same amount?

~~~
bryanlarsen
That's exactly how it works. For example in West Virginia, you get paid either
8.50 or 2.62 plus your tips, whichever is more.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage)

~~~
colechristensen
A few successful waitresses I've known earned 2-4x minimum wage with tips and
fought hard against proposed local laws that would cancel that "tips count
towards minimum wage" concept on the grounds that restaurants couldn't afford
it.

~~~
StudentStuff
Yet restaurants do quite well in the seven states that ban this shady
practice:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_Stat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States#State_law)

------
crazygringo
I think the problem here is that in some lines of work, it's generally
understood that the worker _only_ makes tips (waiters, bartenders -- any base
pay is negligible), in other lines of work it's generally understood that the
tip is a nice but non-required "extra" that nobody should be depending on
(barista, Uber driver), and in yet further cases it's a "required" extra (taxi
driver, hairdresser, massage therapist).

And while pre-Internet delivery was previously understood to be _only_ tips
(e.g. in NYC, the person delivering your Chinese food is paid solely by your
tips, not by the restaurant, effectively just like a waiter)...

...we haven't societally established what the right expectation is for dot-com
delivery people. Because it's such a new thing, most consumers probably assume
they're paid a fair wage and tips are either a non-required bonus (like Uber)
or a required bonus (like hairdressers). Yet the companies seem to be treating
tips as the entire salary (like waiters, bartenders, and restaurant
deliveries).

Of course there's zero logic to any of this, only custom. And the insane
confusion around it is just another argument for getting rid of the damned
practice of tipping in the first place, everywhere.

~~~
eeeeeeeeeeeee
Simple: they shouldn’t be able to use the word tip. That word has meaning and
expectations.

Call it “wage subsidy” and see how many people leave anything.

~~~
astura
... Does it?

I mean, "mandatory"-ish tips have been legal "wage subsidies" for a very, very
long time yet are still called "tips."

[https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-
pe...](https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-
tipping-minimum-wage-service-workers-0402-20180328-story.html)

>The origins of tipping go back more than a century, to the days when only
well-heeled Americans dined out and waitstaff constituted a tiny fraction of
the nation's labor force. Government left the custom alone, even though — or
perhaps because — it reinforced the hierarchy between mostly white, male
restaurant customers and their servers, often women and minorities. Even New
Deal-era minimum wage laws exempted tipped workers until 1966. By then,
tipping was so culturally embedded that Congress took it for granted that
certain workers "customarily and regularly" received tips, while others did
not. It created the "tip credit" system, whereby restaurants could pay
customarily and regularly tipped personnel a much smaller minimum wage than
others received, as long as tips offset the difference.... The June 19 ballot
initiative in Washington would gradually replace the "tip credit" with a
system under which all local restaurant employees would get the statutory
minimum wage — soon to be $15 per hour — and servers could still receive tips
on top of that. Similar laws prevail in seven states, mostly on the West
Coast. However, servers wouldn't necessarily get to keep all of the tips,
because the law Congress just passed lets restaurants that pay servers the
statutory minimum and don't use the "tip credit" redistribute tips to their
back-of-the-house employees.

Sounds not so straightforward to me.

(That's before we get into tip pooling, which is an extremely common
practice.)

~~~
TomMarius
> reinforced the hierarchy between mostly white, male restaurant customers and
> their servers, often women and minorities

Sounds weird. It used to be a big faux pas to have non-male non-white waiters
and still is sometimes in some kind of restaurants.

~~~
improbable22
Indeed. I think it goes back much further too.

Restaurants are basically a 200 year-old technology, but rich people dining
well when visiting each others' country houses goes back a lot further. And I
believe it was the custom that, on departing, a visitor would tip the host's
servants. It's my impression that this is where the custom came from (but not
an expert opinion).

------
raz32dust
Can we take this opportunity to get rid of institutionalized tipping entirely?
It is beyond me why this is even accepted, let alone expected behavior for
companies to specifically ask for tips on behalf of workers. I traveled to
several (developed) countries recently recently and was pleasantly surprised
and relieved to not have to worry about tipping for each and every service.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
I can tolerate it but I don't understand why 20% is now regarded as "normal"
for a basic level of service.

~~~
colechristensen
I have known plenty of smart, capable people who worked hard in the service
industry and, frankly, deserve it.

I don't like the idea of people working for my benefit earning starvation
wages.

~~~
gamblor956
I understand why the kitchen staff deserves tips, they're the ones doing all
the real work. I can't understand why the server who spends at most 2-3
minutes an hour taking the order and carrying it from the kitchen to the table
deserves 20% of the bill.

(In my area servers and kitchen staff now make the same standard minimum wage
before tips, so it's especially obscene to demand 20% _on top of the $12-$15
/hour_ the server is already making for almost no work.)

~~~
colechristensen
I'd challenge you actually try to get to know some people working as
waitresses and reevaluate your position about tipping on top of minimum wage
being "obscene".

~~~
gamblor956
I actually know quite a few waitresses and others in the restaurant industry.

I think you should actually try to get to know some of the people who do far
more valuable work than taking orders and occasionally delivering plates to a
table and who make less than waitresses, like social workers, janitors, and
bus drivers. If you know enough of those people, you begin to question the
entire moral justification for tipping waitresses or serving staff in the
first place.

------
lenkite
This is disgusting. Tips are meant for the driver and _not_ for the company. I
am truly surprised that so many HN readers have their fundamentals of terms so
corrupted that they are choosing to argue about this.

Amazon should be upfront - clearly declare that the minimal wage is taken from
your tips. Declare this right in the employment contract and call it a wage
subsidy. The fact that they are hiding this and not responding to enquiries
shows that they are operating in a malicious and dishonest manner. This is
injustice to the driver and Amazon should be prosecuted.

------
spiznnx
I've always been skeptical of where my digital tips are going. Even in local
restaurants if I have the cash, I'll write "cash" on the tip line for the
credit card receipt and tip in cash.

~~~
mhb
Why do you write anything?

~~~
joecool1029
> Why do you write anything?

Should be obvious: So that unscrupulous places don't fill in their own tip
amount.

~~~
chrisseaton
What does it matter what they write on paper - I only authorise the amount I
intend to when I put my PIN in and no paper will change that.

~~~
BorgHunter
Payment at restaurants in the United States is very different than you might
be imagining. The process goes like this:

* Server brings bill, disappears to go serve others

* Patron places credit card in the sleeve thing the bill came in, leaves it on the table, waits. (Maybe is still finishing a drink or dessert at this point.)

* Server picks it up at some point, takes it to a register, swipes it (not in view of the patron). There is no entering of a PIN, because U.S. credit cards do not require a PIN.

* Server brings receipt back to patron. There are at least two copies: "Merchant copy" and "customer copy". Each has two blank lines: One that says "Tip", and one that says "Total". Often a range of "suggested" tips is provided below. The "Merchant copy" also has a line for a signature.

* Patron fills out "Merchant copy" with their desired tip, and does the math to fill out the total. Signs the signature line. Takes "Customer copy" with them, leaves "Merchant copy" in the sleeve, and exits the restaurant.

* Server takes "Merchant copy" and puts it in the stack designated for such things.

* At some point that day, a restaurant employee goes through the stack of "Merchant copy" receipts and enters the tip amounts for each one into the register.

It's an insane system that beggars belief for people who aren't aware of it.
But this is how it works at probably more than 95% of "sit-down restaurants"
I've eaten at in the U.S.

------
jillesvangurp
I don't mind tipping as an appreciation of above average service. I do mind
having to pretend to appreciate bad service because certain countries
basically just can't be bothered to implement minimum wage, which is what this
boils down to. I try not to be a jerk about it and just generally tip on the
principle that I don't want to cheat people out of some income they probably
need. But it's not exactly a great system.

My main problem with this is that all the hard work is typically done by
people you don't interact with, which in a restaurant would be the people
cleaning the place, cooking the food, doing the dishes, etc. Basically, people
working double/triple jobs because of the before mentioned minimum wage
issues. So, I tip and I hope some of that trickles down to those people as
well. But I would not be surprised to learn that most of that money never ends
up where it belongs.

In the US, basically you get your ass kissed in a blatantly indifferent and
disingenuous way by eager waiters desperate to ensure you tip generously for
the service of delivering food from the kitchen to your table. It makes the
whole experience of being in a restaurant a lot less pleasant. There's also
this pressure to basically leave ASAP so the waiter can start harassing the
next customer. So they say, "is everything alright" but what they mean is
"hurry up so I can maximize my tip/hour ratio". There's just something deeply
unpleasant about that.

------
elliekelly
Since when are people expected to tip package delivery drivers? I didn’t even
know this was an option in the Amazon app.

~~~
ceejayoz
I think it's only for their Amazon Fresh / Amazon Prime Now deliveries, not
the general "we're replacing USPS / UPS" ones.

~~~
Dylan16807
Doing the same thing a day faster probably shouldn't be the decider between
tipped/untipped.

------
d6e
Tipping is bad for everyone, but Americans love it.

~~~
m000
What's not to love? It makes you feel rich _and_ generous for a moment: "Look
at me as I'm sharing my riches to save this pleb waiter from certain
starvation."

~~~
iicc
Obligatory

[http://www.temporarilyembarrassedmillionaires.org/](http://www.temporarilyembarrassedmillionaires.org/)

~~~
andrewmcwatters
[https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Steinbeck#Disputed](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Steinbeck#Disputed)

------
entity345
It's the first time I hear about tipping an Amazon driver.

Is this an American thing? (part of this 'strange' American tipping culture)

~~~
darkpuma
> _Is this an American thing? (part of this 'strange' American tipping
> culture)_

Definitely not, I've never heard of it. The closest I've ever heard of this is
writing a christmas card for your mailman once a year.

------
purplezooey
It's sad. At some point Amazon decided that's how they would handle tips. They
do it because they can.

------
darkpuma
Rule of thumb: If you're not tipping cash, you're not tipping.

~~~
slfnflctd
Most relevant comment here.

We can argue all day long about whether this 'culture' should exist or not,
the fact is it _does_ exist and there are many situations where the most
ethical choice is offer some kind of tip (and cash is most certainly
appreciated by those in the know). Yeah, it's archaic and overcomplicated and
regressive, much like just about everything else involving human interaction.

If you don't like it, abolish the practice in businesses where you can
influence such policies. Feel free to withhold tips if you want, in lots of
cases the workers you interact will hardly notice because plenty of others do
the same. Just know that if you ask a low-wage worker to put up with extra
hassle for you and don't offer extra compensation in return, in many cases you
will be viewed as clueless and/or selfish. That's just how it is, respond to
the reality as you see fit.

------
AndyMcConachie
This is wage theft.

------
m0zg
I wonder if The Washington Post will report on this. :-)

