
Writers Are More Prolific When They Cluster - overwhelm
https://www.citylab.com/life/2019/06/british-irish-writers-london-clustering-dickens-woolf/590884/
======
pjmorris
In 'Working' [0], Robert Caro spends pages on how much being able to join a
community of writers meant to him when producing 'The Power Broker.' The New
York Public Library set aside a room as a workspace explicitly to house
writers working on books.

A passage from 'Working':

And these writers provided more for me than merely the glow of their names. In
my memory, no one spoke to me for the first few days I was in the room. Then
one day, I looked up and James Flexner was standing over me. The expression on
his face was friendly, but after he had asked what I was writing about, the
next question was the question I had come to dread: “How long have you been
working on it?” This time, however, when I replied, “Five years,” the response
was not an incredulous stare. “Oh,” Jim Flexner said, “that’s not so long.
I’ve been working on my Washington for nine years.” I could have jumped up and
kissed him, whiskers and all—as, the next day, I could have jumped up and
kissed Joe Lash, big beard and all, when he asked me the same question, and,
after hearing my answer, said in his quiet way, “Eleanor and Franklin took me
seven years.” In a couple of sentences, these two men—idols of mine—had wiped
away five years of doubt.

[0] Caro, Robert A.. Working (p. 76). Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle
Edition.

~~~
rb808
I'm curious how spaces like this are run. Who identifies the need, finds
budget or space, then operates. Is it invite only or kind of underground word
of mouth?

~~~
theoh
That particular example is discussed here:
[https://www.nytimes.com/1987/08/02/nyregion/authors-seek-
mus...](https://www.nytimes.com/1987/08/02/nyregion/authors-seek-muse-in-a-
room.html)

Apparently one had to have a publishing contract to be admitted. I'm not sure
how elitist that actually worked out to be.

There are also membership-funded places like
[http://www.writersroom.org/](http://www.writersroom.org/)

I know more about how this works in the arts, where the relevant term is
"residency". Access to exclusive residencies is usually allocated on the basis
of previous career success, and they are usually funded by endowments of some
kind. It's an example of institutional support for artists, and the top
residencies are extremely elitist. There are lots of humble ones too, though.

------
jamesjyu
The major thing I struggled with transitioning to being a writer from the tech
world is the challenge of creating feedback cycles. Writing can be a lonely
affair, since outside of writing rooms, it's not naturally collaborative,
unlike the business world, where you get constant feedback from peers, bosses,
customers, the market, etc.

The advice from published authors I know is that the highest correlation with
eventually getting published is to have a weekly (or regular) cadence with an
intimate critique group of small size. The critiques themselves are useful,
but even more important is the social pressure to produce.

I've always wondered how famous authors seemed to all hang out with each
other, like C.S. Lewis and Tolkien. I realized the question was poorly formed:
famous authors tend to cluster because they got to know each other _before_
they were famous. They improved their craft together, and each person's
success levels up the group.

~~~
nemild
I wrote a tweet thread on building a writing habit:

[https://twitter.com/nemild/status/1113441095323492352](https://twitter.com/nemild/status/1113441095323492352)

Consistency and having social pressure were critical for me.

Also, check out Daily Rituals: How Artists Work (book)

~~~
wintercarver
Great thread, thanks for sharing. I've found a lot of what you said to ring
absolutely true in my own experience (only recently started publicly sharing
content). I also _love_ writing on a typewriter, it's such a great tool for
focusing on moving forward as opposed to obsessive, premature editing.

Do you have any thoughts on finding/developing your writing community?

~~~
jamesjyu
Usually workshops are a good place to find folks at your level, and those that
go are usually eager to connect, and maybe even start a critique group if that
is what you want.

You can also try larger cons that are aimed at your vertical, but I’ve found
that workshops attract people who are more actively engaged in improving their
craft. Those are the folks you want to mingle with.

~~~
wintercarver
Thanks for the suggestion! I currently live in Tokyo, which is big enough I
_should_ be able to find some writing communities, but it might be a bit
challenging.

------
SolaceQuantum
This is pretty self-evident if one actually attends any collective meeting of
serious writers who have actually published(for money paid by people who are
not immediate friends/family) or intend to publish. It's similar to why
hackathons are so productive. Being within your peer group and talking shop
with people who meet one's own passion is incredibly rewarding regardless of
experience level or background- people who are knowledgeable are listened to
with fascination, and people who are less experienced more than welcome the
lecturing!

------
rolltiide
This is the same with other creative works.

Visual artists work that gains value is highly correlated with their network
to begin with.

Right school, right galleries, never ever being seen in a lesser gallery. It
makes me sad when an artist who wants to monetize is celebrating the mere fact
of being on display as validation, when that very act is undermining the value
of their work forever. Is the alternative of being in a prestigious gallery
achievable for them? Probably not, and they should consider resigning to that
reality if their time is valuable.

I think this is not known because when I listen to many talented and aspiring
artists the things they value are so at odds with the things that would make
them valuable. Things like "I never had formal education" being a bragging
point to an aspiring artist not being aware thats not a bragging point to the
people that the artist wants to assign value to their work.

~~~
Firadeoclus
> It makes me sad when an artist who wants to monetize is celebrating the mere
> fact of being on display as validation, when that very act is undermining
> the value of their work forever. Is the alternative of being in a
> prestigious gallery achievable for them? Probably not, and they should
> consider resigning to that reality if their time is valuable.

If they accept that the alternative is not achievable then being on display in
a "lesser gallery" is as good as it gets. So why shouldn't they celebrate?
There's room for successful-but-no-superstar artists.

~~~
rolltiide
> If they accept that the alternative is not achievable then being on display
> in a "lesser gallery" is as good as it gets. So why shouldn't they
> celebrate? There's room for successful-but-no-superstar artists.

Again, I don't think many aspiring artists are aware. They focus on mastery of
a craft and also want to make money. They feel that these things are
correlated. They aren't.

------
Schattenbaer
I'm reminded of the Florentine Camerata[1] here. They were a group of
intellectuals that met at Giovanni de' Bardi's house during the second half of
the 1500s, and their discussions of music (amongst other things) led to the
development of opera.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florentine_Camerata](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florentine_Camerata)

------
aggronn
This isn't a unique characteristic of writers, or creatives for that matter.
This is a well studied phenomena, especially in Urban Economics, called
Agglomeration.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_agglomeration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_agglomeration)

The HN audience should be pretty familiar with this already considering how
much we talk about startups and labor markets--proximity breeds productivity.
Startups breed more startups, software jobs breed software jobs.

But it extends beyond that even. This is, in part, why similar stores cluster.
The "cost" of doing business goes down when you're near other people who are
doing the same business, for a variety of reasons. In writing, "cost" is
feedback and gathering inspiration. Its hardly different at all.

------
Nasrudith
I wonder how much of this correlation is from the publishers as opposed to
interaction between writers who would wind up comparable in present day
status.

Breaking it down further it brings to mind mapping with more data than we
probably have. Like say if they found "muse correlations" with everyone -
mapping productivity and interactions. Like say being in the Shelley's social
circle was associated with a 5.0 but the one copy writer of no historical note
has a 4.5. Of course if someone was prolific enough they might cause anyone
who interacts with them to have a high number as a sheer mathematical side
effect.

------
nprz
Interesting, seems to prove Paul Graham's essay on how cities influence
behavior as correct[0].

[0]
[http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html)

~~~
mocha_nate
I loved that essay. Thanks for sharing

------
searine
It's not just writing.

Being around a group of highly-skilled peers sets the bar. It exposed your
shortcomings and gives you a resource to remedy them.

~~~
Steve44
When I was programming I loved working in an office with other teams. The buzz
with the other creatives, coders, artists, musicians, really helped me to
develop what I was working on. If I was ‘in the zone’ I could be totally
focussed for hours but when I needed a mental break, or to chat over ideas
there were always others around to do that with.

I’ve sometimes worked at home which can be great for a few days of pure coding
but for the longer term development I really relish having other peers around.

I once did a project, about six months work, purely from home and although I
was disciplined enough to work I feel I was nowhere near my best because of
the isolation.

This is why I find it strange the drive a lot of people have to work at home,
for me it’s nice occasionally but it just doesn’t work for my creativity.

------
sleazy_b
I moderate a small writing subresdit and discord. I can't speak to how useful
it is for other participants but for me it's been tremendously helpful in
keeping my writing front of mind, not to mention the writing sprints that take
place there represent a significant amount of my output. Interacting with
other writers has been the best way to improve my own writing as well as
develop new ideas and inspiration.

~~~
bobthecowboy
What's the subreddit?

~~~
sleazy_b
r/litfiction The subreddit is pretty inactive but the Discord is a great
place, if a little quiet:
[https://discord.gg/JuGRMYP](https://discord.gg/JuGRMYP)

------
mrec
I don't think the clustering needs to be geographic; isn't NaNoWriMo based on
essentially the same principle? Seeing how far along your peers are can be a
useful kick up the fundament when you're lagging behind.

~~~
Endy
Never underestimate the power of the NaNo forums, or subreddits, or general
forums that open a NaNo board. It's not just about pacing, it's about
communication.

~~~
gwern
Online forums are great, but I wonder if they're missing something
nevertheless for lack of physicality.

One of the more interesting papers I read last year was "Knitting Community:
Human and Social Capital in the Early Transition into Entrepreneurship", Kim
2018 [https://goo.gl/1AfwZG](https://goo.gl/1AfwZG) on knitting enthusiasts on
the Ravelry knitting forums
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravelry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravelry)
\- despite being eminently digitizable, participation in offline knitting
circles still appeared to be a big predictor of knitting success & innovation.

------
cableshaft
My main two hobbies are writing and board game design right now. I've been in
a local writer's group for probably going on a dozen years now, and have been
designing games for about half that (although only seriously the past three
years).

While I've made several pretty good friends from the writer's group, and
gotten a few things published through them, some useful critiques,
encouragement, etc, I don't think I've gone anywhere near as far with that I
have in less than half the time in the game industry.

I think part of that is the act of writing is completely solitary, whereas
game design, while it has solitary parts (working on manuals, sell sheets,
thinking long and hard about what direction to take the game, making
prototypes, etc), the process tends to be highly collaborative.

I.e. I'll playtest your game, then you'll playtest my game. After (or
sometimes during) the game, we'll brainstorm new ideas, go over what works,
what doesn't, maybe change the rules mid-playtest, etc.

Whereas in my experience with writing, you might share a passage from time to
time and get some feedback on it, or recruit someone to beta read something
you've written, but it's a lot slower process and a much bigger commitment (if
you're writing novels at least). It could take them several weeks to finish
your book (if they ever do at all), and if they suggest anything structural,
like "I don't think taking the book in this direction worked here", you might
have to rewrite half the book to incorporate that change and see if it makes
it better.

Short stories are easier, and I've gotten some good feedback on my short
stories before.

But even the heavier board games out there tend to require no more than about
3 hours of a player's time (still a lot, even to me, I prefer about 90 minutes
or less), but you could still make an Saturday afternoon of it, including an
hour of feedback, and get home in time for dinner.

And not only that, but you'll often get multiple people's feedback with one
playtest session.

Much, much harder to get a commitment for as long as it takes to read a book.
And unless you set up storytime hour where you read out the book, just about
everyone you recruit can only experience it by themselves, so it's a lot more
work to get that feedback from people.

------
taneq
It's the Manhattan Effect, named for the Manhattan Project.

Or if it's not called that, then it should be.

------
HaloZero
Doesn't the data seem to reflect the clustering effect for writers in London
has waned. As you approach the 21st century that clustering effect goes toward
the population line.

------
mruts
It's much more likely that serious writers cluster and that serious writers
are more prolific.

