
Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media (2011) - Jerry2
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks
======
kronazoan
I might not even be against this practice because if it is truly countering
bad ideas, then it could be effective. Bad ideas can spread fast and influence
people in subtle and profound ways. But obviously they should be countered in
organic ways by moderates or skeptics or Neil deGrasse Tysons- in their
countries.

What I don't understand is how the US military can say, oh this is illegal
(and thus unethical) to do in the US to Americans, but foreigners are exempt,
so let's create a world of false personas and disinformation for them.

The only argument for using tactics like this and others, like spying on
people, is in a time of temporary war.

We Americans are a nation built on the acknowledgement of natural rights and
to deny that all humans have these rights against any oppressive government,
is absurd and wrong.

Endless ambiguous and 'total war' is more dangerous than radicals posting on a
message board or even the threat of terrorism. The existential risk to human
freedom is far greater when we have an infinite budget military mandated with
doing unjust and immoral things forevermore with no sense of what made America
great or what will eventually make the whole world great; natural rights and
secular governments.

~~~
brbsix
illegal != unethical.

To play devil's advocate, doesn't a state possess a greater obligation to it's
own people than to those outside of it?

You (perhaps naïvely) expect your government to protect you from foreign
threats. You don't expect (and probably don't want) your government to protect
everyone, everywhere.

~~~
summerdown2
Although I expect my government to have a greater obligation to its own people
than those outside it, I also would prefer (sadly not expect) them to take a
longer-term view than "what suits the situation at the moment."

If putting out worldwide propaganda is expected to have a long-term effect of
degredation of public discourse, I would expect my government to take this
into account and temper their actions. In fact, whether or not it is known
today to have this effect, I'd hope my government would analyse these things
and take them into account when making policy.

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agd
Question. Are there any laws/regulations that we know of which prevent the NSA
from altering domestic discourse for security reasons? What is the oversight
of this?

Can the NSA, say, alter/create Facebook posts in order to disseminate domestic
propaganda in the name of national security? We know the Chinese do this. Does
the US?

~~~
leesalminen
I've read that the 2013 NDAA passed by Congress removed the ban on propaganda
targeted at domestic audiences.

I'm not entirely sure if that's true, but there are several places online
claiming this. Wikipedia mentions it as well [0].

Anecdotally, around that time Google News started indexing Voice of America,
which is funded by the US government [1].

[0]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorizati...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2013)

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_of_America](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_of_America)

~~~
tptacek
Not really. It remains unlawful to appropriate funds (or use appropriated
funds) to influence US public opinion. The problem the legislation tried to
solve was that material meant for foreign consumption is, in the Internet era,
overwhelmingly likely to find its way to a domestic audience, and the plain
text of the law prior to the NDAA forbad any such material --- it was a
practical problem for State and the BBG.

The 2013 NDAA amended the law to allow the State Department and the
Broadcasting Board Of Governors to disseminate material _meant for foreign
audiences_ domestically, using domestic services like Youtube, &c.

Fun fact: the Broadcasting Board of Governors also pays for free crypto audits
(from some very strong firms) for privacy and anonymity tools. Virtually all
the privacy tools you've heard about have had several tens of thousands of
dollars worth of audit dollars spent by the BBG to make sure they're not
endangering people.

So far as I know --- I've participated in a couple of these audits, but never
been a recipient of one --- these are no-strings-attached.

~~~
Tiksi
> _Fun fact: the Broadcasting Board of Governors also pays for free crypto
> audits (from some very strong firms) for privacy and anonymity tools.
> Virtually all the privacy tools you 've heard about have had several tens of
> thousands of dollars worth of audit dollars spent by the BBG to make sure
> they're not endangering people._

Are the reports from these audits publicly available? Seems like it would be
an interesting bit of data to read through.

~~~
secfirstmd
It's not the BBG exactly, it's the Open Tech Fund via Radio Free Asia.

Our audit is here:
[https://secfirst.org/blog.html](https://secfirst.org/blog.html)

I think Cryptocat and a few others have published their audits also. The
companies who conducted them have them on their site if I recall.

~~~
tptacek
I believe (corrections welcome) that OTF is RFA, and RFA is an offshoot of
BBG.

~~~
secfirstmd
Yep

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jameslk
Just based on all the positive comments on this thread, I'd say it's already
well underway.

Yes they say that this is targeted towards foreign audiences and yes they say
it's an attempt to balance out conversations. I'm sure the Russian and Chinese
governments say the same things too.

Propaganda is still propaganda.

------
yompers888
What I find interesting about this is the way it contrasts to Russia's use of
comment trolls. While Russia uses their trolls to degrade the quality of all
internet discourse (tragedy of the commons as a feature?), the US would rather
exploit the implicit partial trust relationship that is assumed of purportedly
real people discussing things.

Or, maybe I just perceive them differently because of how they're reported.

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NullCharacter
I love how headlines like this are supposed to incite anger and fear.

The article mentioned nothing about manipulating "social media" (like reddit
or HN as the headline would lead you to believe), in fact it mentions that
none of the correspondence will even be in English. All this is is creating
fake personas on extremist/underground forums as a source of intelligence.

This Internet is so quick to outrage.

~~~
knowaveragejoe
Why is this downvoted? This is an entirely rational explanation and probably
far closer to the truth than something vaguely conspiratorial, such as the NSA
trying to manipulate opinion on Facebook or Reddit. I say "vaguely" because
depending on who you ask, you'll get a different answer as to what possible
motive they could have.

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vonklaus
a 2.7m contract is basically the exploration of the exploration of the idea of
the possibility of a product. Healthcare.gov is essentially a standard html
website and ti cost >800m. I am sure they (us gov't) is interested in this,
and I am sure they are planning on it, but if a front end product can't get
built for aroubnd 1 billion, it is unlikely they can beat the truing test for
2.3m.

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projectramo
Every time I see a revelation of what a spy agency does, I am surprised that
anyone else is surprised.

Haven't we known, or assumed, this is the case all along?

~~~
waterphone
Every time I see a revelation of what a spy agency does, I see someone making
a statement like this. I'm not sure it is very helpful to the discussion,
because it treats the situation as expected and dismisses people's concerns
about it. It's a cynical thing to do, and begets more cynicism. And cynicism
is appealing, because the revelations keep coming, keep getting worse, and
efforts to counter them are outnumbered by efforts to make the situation
worse. But I don't think we should give up in trying to raise awareness and
understanding, and trying to fix the damage.

~~~
pigpaws
...speaking of 'unhelpful' to the conversation, please explain what 'We' can
do about it? Nothing. The fact is that CONgress actually _legalized_ domestic
propaganda (which is what this is).

'raising awareness' does nothing as the snowden incident showed us. 1984 is
the SOP now.

~~~
smhenderson
But it's not domestic. The article specifically states that this is not be
used on US based sites. Posts are not in English.

Not saying some other program doesn't potentially exist but this particular
program is aimed at sites in the Middle East and Asia. From the article:
_languages in which the interventions are conducted include Arabic, Farsi,
Urdu and Pashto._

~~~
tunap
The problem, as I see it, is (the Alphabet Agency) has a proven ability and
now authorization to do X to Y but promises to never to do it to Z. This is
the point where _trust_ comes into the equation. As has been shown via FISA
courts, warrantless eavesdropping & sneak/peak ex post facto warrant abuses,
_trust_ no longer exists. Sorta like how the US vehemently denied torture
until disclosures & evidence mounted so high they couldn't keep up appearances
& now hem & haw about how _somebody_ will be held accountable... some day.

tldr: If they have the ability, you can depend on them finding a credible(sic)
excuse for using it just that one, initial time. Thus starts the tide of more
rationalizations and the ultimate abuses to follow.

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a3n
Currently spam is the greatest email payload.

Will sock puppets one day be the greatest "participants" on social networks?

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realguy
This is actually a good thing. Surely any opinion that a "sock puppet" holds
is one that some actual tax-paying citizens hold. They are in effect
protecting the minority opinion-holders by letting their arguments see the
light of day.

~~~
5ilv3r
^^ I believe this may be a real world example. The irony hurts.

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bitL
Soon only bots will be discussing on Reddit and Facebook :-D

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anonbanker
HN is considered social media, correct?

~~~
CM30
Yes. And you can bet anything that the US government wants to manipulate it
(or at least monitor it), especially with the general disdain of the NSA and
their operations or comment threads about certain political articles.

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djscram
So, Hootsuite?

~~~
20andup
My guess ia Palantir.

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edkennedy
Article is from 2011

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api
I am shocked, shocked... :)

