
Tado Cooling – Intelligent AC control - macrosak
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tado/tado-cooling-intelligent-a-c-control/
======
robomartin
Unlike Nest, which I've always seen as a gimmick sold on false advertising, I
believe this has legs. Making these kinds of air conditioning units into
intelligent devices could have significant effects.

Why do think I Nest is a gimmick almost bordering on a marketing scam? Because
in only works in a relatively narrow range of applications (i.e.: small one or
two room apartment). In a larger family home --and particularly a two story
home-- it is worthless. You could save money with a cheap programmable
thermostat. In order to really save money in such settings you need a zone
system with one thermostat/sensor per zone, a multiple stage compressor (or
multiple condensing units), a variable speed air handler, a high efficiency
HEPA filter, attic exhaust fans and, ideally, a filtered outside air bypass
system to take advantage of cool night air.

I am in the middle of renovating my home and have done all the research. Nest
is a waste of time and money. You'd save far more money --FAR MORE-- buying a
relatively cheap whole house fan to cool the house down at night (at least in
my region). But, hey, everyone believes that technology is magical. Damn the
math and physics. Hence the hype and sales.

Automating window units is a different game. These are devoted mostly to
cooling single rooms. So now you have the equicalent of a highly granular zone
system. If you have a home or office with several of these units an
intelligent control system could, depending on traffic patterns and the daily
flow of people in and out of the various spaces, have a big impact. This is
different.

EDIT: I see the cargo-cult HN down-voting got started right away. You can't
say anything bad about Apple, Tesla, Nest and others on HN. Of course, they
never back-up their downvote because it's purely emotionally driven.

So, here's the challenge: If you think I am wrong about Nest tell me why and
back it up. The comparison is between Nest and a cheap programmable
thermostat. People's lives are reasonably regular and heat cycles in the
summer are too. If you are intent on saving money a programmable thermostat
will do wonders. I've been experimenting with this for three years knowing
that we would have to redo our cooling and heating system in 2014/15\. I've
gone two full summers without running the air conditioner but for two weeks by
rigging and intelligent $200 fan (meaning, I hooked it up to a $5 timer) to
exchange air out of the house when outside air was cooler than inside. That
move alone represented a savings of around $500 PER MONTH. See my point?

~~~
DannyBee
Your argument is mostly right in terms of what would be required (the super-
high efficiency filter is not necessary, nor are attic fans, to achieve
anything interesting), but actually, you _have_ to have multiple condensing
units past a certain point.

It's simply not efficient, even with auto-closing dampers, to zone and duct a
multi-zone system with single condensing units.

You'd be much better off, efficiency wise, either: 1\. Using mini-splits
everywhere. 2\. Going geothermal. You can support multiple units off a single
loop. I did this in maryland. My 4000 square foot house had all the hot water
and cooling provided by GSHP. My energy bills, keeping it whatever temperature
I liked, dropped from about 400 a month in the winter to about 50 bucks. The
wonder of 41 EER, 5 COP. Unlike the air source heat pumps, they actually
publish real efficiency curves for various temperatures, and your pump
actually work at close to expected efficiency!

~~~
mrfusion
Why is a multi-zone system not efficient with a single unit? That's what I
have, should I uninstall it or turn it off?

~~~
DannyBee
Either you have motor controlled dampers, which means the system can't be
entirely responsive all the time, or everything is open all the time, which
means you are losing a lot of airflow to parts you don't need them.

~~~
mrfusion
It is motor controlled. It has two thermostats and it adjusts the motors to
only heat or cool one floor.

I'm not seeing why that wouldn't be equivalent to two units.

~~~
DannyBee
Okay:

Two small units

For the sake of argument, let's make everything otherwise equivalent. We'll
say the small units are 1.5kw each

When upstairs and downstairs call for heat, you use ... 3kw When upstairs
calls for heat alone, you use 1.5kw When downstairs calls for heat alone, you
use 1.5kw

Ducting/blower loss from this setup (assumes two completely separate duct
runs): 0%

One large unit:

3.0kw to make life easy (in reality, if you use small units, you often need
less)

When upstairs and downstairs call for heat, you use ... 3kw When upstairs
calls for heat alone, you use 3kw When downstairs calls for heat alone, you
use 3kw

Ducting loss from this setup: 25-30% (at least, it's just the way it goes due
to longer duct runs, more tees, etc. If you have, say, flex runs, it'd be even
more)

It is essentially guaranteed to run for more than half the time of the smaller
units (due to ducting loss, etc), making overall cost more.

Note that if you had mini-splits as the small units, the comparison would be
crazily in favor of that. you'd have no loss due to ducting, they would almost
certainly be DC based, and would be completely variable to actual load (even a
"variable speed blower" on a large unit isn't), not 1.5kw on/off. Smaller unit
efficiency is also almost always greater than larger unit efficiency.

Also note this is all a comparison of _efficiency_. It may be more _cost
effective_ to do one or the other (though it depends how long you own the
house, insulation, blah blah blah)

------
joosters
_< 60MB per month upload, < 5MB per month download_

1) Seems like a lot of data, what exactly is it communicating and to whom?
What are the privacy policies?

2) What happens if/when the company stops running its servers? Does the device
continue to work or will it become junk?

~~~
mey
Rough numbers may a general guideline to CYA, but to your privacy and second
point. What data is gathered, stored, for how long and shared with who? What
are your options if the system goes offline?

I have a Nest Thermostat that I bought before Google acquired Nest, which
raises another general issue of your device having an evolving T&C to use.

------
uptown
ConEdison in NYC will give you a device like this for free, and pay you $25
after installation if you sign up.

[http://www.coned.com/energyefficiency/residential_directload...](http://www.coned.com/energyefficiency/residential_directloadcontrol_program.asp)

~~~
iamjs
It looks like a central A/C system is a requirement for this program, so if
you use window units, you will not be eligible.

~~~
uptown
Sorry - guess I linked the wrong program. Here's the ThinkEco program. Works
on window-based AC units.

[https://www.coolnycprogram.com/](https://www.coolnycprogram.com/)

------
StavrosK
That's a very nice idea for an Arduino project. I already have an Arduino
hooked up to my home server that can sense motion/light/temperature, so it
should be easy to set it up to remotely control the AC as well.

------
legulere
Strange thing to come from a company from Munich, as AC is barely used there.

~~~
ccozan
Mind you, if you look closely on their website, it works with gas heating -
which most of the houses here use. I personally have a Buderus ( although
fully automated - but quite inflexible) and I'd really like to try it. 300
Euro doesn't seem to much, considering that it can do savings on the same
level per year. EDIT: the central Munich is heated with the SWM's powerplants.
But around Munich there is a huge amount of houses which just fit this device.

~~~
lmb
Be careful: these are two distinct devices. One works with gas heating, the
other with HVACs.

------
thelucky41
According to Thingsquare, Tado is using their firmware [1], Mist, based off of
the open source Contiki [2]. This is pretty cool, as it enables a ton of
features like over the air firmware updates or running your own applications.
I'm especially curious how they added bluetooth and ibeacon support into this.

[1] [http://thingsquare.com/customers/](http://thingsquare.com/customers/) [2]
[http://www.contiki-os.org/](http://www.contiki-os.org/)

------
theg2
I was thinking about it until they decided to charge MORE for the developer
edition. As there isn't a Windows (Phone or otherwise) version out there I
couldn't use it.

Yes, I know, I run a Windows Phone and don't own Android or iOS devices but
companies should at least give people the ability without pay walling it.

~~~
lmb
Kinda like the Occulus, which are also charging more for the DevKit. Why do
you think it should be cheaper? It's not like they have an app store they want
to promote.

------
chillingeffect
I wonder where they got the name Tado?

It's quite similar to the name Taco, which is an 80+ year-old American HVAC
company [0]. I hope they don't get in trouble in the U.S.!

Other than that, great idea!

[http://www.taco-hvac.com/whoweare.html](http://www.taco-
hvac.com/whoweare.html)

~~~
macrosak
[http://www.tado.com/de-en/blog/tadayimaor-how-we-chose-
our-c...](http://www.tado.com/de-en/blog/tadayimaor-how-we-chose-our-company-
name-26)

"The name tado° is derived from the Japanese greetings 'tadaima' and 'okaeri'.
Loosely translated, they mean 'I am home' and 'welcome home'."

~~~
Navarr
Would also imply that it's pronounced "tah-doh"

------
dmritard96
all the IR stuff is done if you want it Tado. :D or at least a start

allows record and playback of IR codes as well as search of LIRC

also, if you are building an IR database, would you consider sharing the IR
codes with the community?

after all, I'm sure Ken Sheriffs library and arduino are open tools that are
likely helping you quite a lot in the early stages...

[https://github.com/dandroid88/webmote](https://github.com/dandroid88/webmote)

------
lesingerouge
Just for fun I once thought about using my Lego Next kit to build a bluetooth
controlled robotic finger to operate my AC remote. So sorry I never got to it.

------
davidcollantes
Isn't this what Nest does as well?

~~~
klinquist
This is for those with window or portable A/C units that are controlled with
an infrared remote. Nest is for those with central air.

