
Each day a cruise ship emits as much particulate matter as a million cars - ToFab123
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/pollution-cruise-ships-po-oceana-higher-piccadilly-circus-channel-4-dispatches-a7821911.html
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skywhopper
I have no doubt these ships pollute really badly. That said, this is poor
reporting. The numbers given in the article are impossible to make sense of as
given. We get some particulate numbers for directly outside and around the
ship's funnels and comparative numbers for Piccadilly Circus. But even
assuming these numbers are fairly collected, that doesn't really tell us all
the information we need.

The article implies this means vacationers are getting a bum deal if they are
looking for cleaner air, and that ship staff might be in danger from exposure
to these particulates as well. But there's no information on how often staff
or vacationers are in these high-particulate zones. And there's no
corresponding numbers for other parts of the ship. What about on state room
balconies? Or the pool area? Or staff quarters? My wild guess is that the
numbers would be significantly better than Piccadilly most places on the ship,
but this article doesn't tell me if I'm right or wrong about that.

As for the "as much particulate matter as a million cars", that sounds bad,
but what does it mean? Is it a million cars operating 24/7? Given that they
say 30 cruise ships equal all the particulate pollution from cars in the
entire UK, I'm guessing they mean a million cars' typical daily routine. Which
would be what, a couple of hours at most of operation?

And then, the ship is serving as living quarters for the people aboard. So how
much particulate matter is generated by electricity generation and other fuel
usage of a typical home? What's the difference in those usages when people are
occupying the residence versus when they are on a vacation? For that matter,
how does cruise ship vacation pollution generation compare to pollution
generated by other vacation modes?

Sure you can't answer all of that in one article or one study, and while I
fully accept cruise ships are "wasteful" in some sense, and are definitely not
a positive impact on the environments they travel through, it's important to
give a full picture of the situation.

(The article is from 2017 by the way.)

~~~
supermatt
Also, its worth noting that cars have diesel particulate filters (otherwise
they wouldn't be allowed into that part of london).

From what I understand (which isn't a whole lot), those particulate filters
are a lie. They DO NOT reduce emission of particulate matter. Instead, at low
exhaust temperature (such as crawling through a city), they collect the
particulates, then at higher engine temperatures (such as cruising on the
highway) they release them - a process they call 'regeneration'. i.e. they
just move the pollution out of the city.

~~~
sdoering
> They DO NOT reduce emission of particulate matter.

Well not exactly. Depending on the type of filter the collect particulate
matter and when they have collected enough to need a regeneration process they
use passive heat (because driving on the highway make the filter heat up) or
the actively heat the filter to then burn up most of this particulate matter.
It is like self cleaning ovens that get hot enough to nearly burn all what is
in them.

So about 5% of the particulate matter isn't being able to be filtered out that
way. Either because the particles are to small for the filter to initially
block them. Or because the regeneration leaves them as a kind of residue. Also
not everything can be "burned up" so that these filters have a limited
lifetime of somewhat below 200.000 kilometers.

I know, I glossed over lot's of important details, but at least be assured,
that not all filtered particulate matter is being released in the countryside.

~~~
supermatt
Thank you. I was clearly misinformed on this matter.

------
agentofoblivion
16 cargo ships equal all of the world’s cars in pollution, and there are
>100,000 of them.

[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-
create-pollution-cars-world.html)

~~~
rkul
This is a misleading headline. What they mean by pollution is just sulfur not
necessarily CO2 or other gases/particles.

Read the article.

~~~
makerofspoons
Interestingly sulfur dioxide has a net cooling effect on the atmosphere:
[https://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/9805/would-...](https://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/9805/would-
adding-sulfur-dioxide-to-the-atmosphere-have-a-global-cooling-effect)

However this effect does not outweigh the health consequences of emitting this
pollution, or the contribution it makes to acid rain and other serious
problems.

------
raxxorrax
Not really surprising if you look at their energy consumption. To add to that
they burn heavy oil outside of any harbors. I think there was a story about
how a ship forgot to switch fuel while entering a harbor area. Nearly the
whole city had symptoms of poisoning.

------
Keverw
I've been wanting to go on a cruise lately. They look so fun.

It seems like there's about 2,000 people or more on a ship. They are entire
floating cities with their own water treatment, jail(the brig), a morgue, own
newspaper/letter, in-house tv station - I was looking at technical jobs on
cruise ships one day and seen that one has like their own little morning show,
etc.

However I doubt a small town with 2,000 people would equal 2 million cars
worth...

I know I seen a few years ago one cruise line was playing with hydrogen fuel
cells. [https://youtu.be/oI9OmoMwz5s](https://youtu.be/oI9OmoMwz5s)

Cruise ships kinda remind me of future ideas like arcologies or Skyscraper
Movie (2018).

Seems neat everything is within walking distance and self sufficient in the
middle of the ocean. Well they still need fuel and food supplies when they
dock and prepare for the next ship... but imagine if they could build farms on
sea too...

Seems like the ocean with the right power solution would be virtually
unlimitless water and electric.

~~~
dzhiurgis
There are 2000 staff for 4000 passengers... These things are truly
interesting. There are 5-10 bars just for staff.

That said the job (or even travelling one) is fairly gruelling. Smells, poor
food, isolation, rip-off prices, etc.

~~~
Keverw
Why would traveling on one be grueling? Working on one seems like it's work,
not really a vacation even if away from home... But as a passenger, why would
it also be grueling? Yes I know there's been incidents and accidents but that
doesn't happen on every cruise.

I've been watching some travel vlogs of them and some look really nice and
relaxing. Also, some ships internet is crappy or costly, so it also forces you
to disconnect and live more at the moment too I'd think. However crappy
internet at sea will be a thing of the past someday in the future.

Prices do seem a bit high though but I have seen some deals. Also probably
depends on the ship, etc. Food probably depends on the ship too, like Royal
Caribbean Symphony of the Seas has a bunch of different restaurants. They have
a concept called the Royal Caribbean Promenade on some of the ships, I think
you'd forget you are even on a ship.

Seasickness is a worry but bigger ships are supposed to be more stable.

I'm a picky eater, and flying sounds sucky... Strapped to a tin can floating
in the sky, sitting next to some stranger. Probably higher chance of surviving
a cruise ship sinking than a plane crash. I can't fly but I could swim a bit,
plus lifeboats. Airplanes don't have parachutes. But I think if I had more
money I'd like to try cruising.

Traveling around Europe's been another dream of mine, there are some one-way
repositioning cruises there from the US... Ships are popular in the Caribbean
but when that season slows down they move the ships to other places like the
Mediterranean. Sure flying takes like a day while a cruise there takes like
over a week to get there but at least you have your own room, can get up and
walk around, etc. Take a short flight to Miami or New York, hop on a ship and
travel to Europe in style! Then take trains, buses, rental cars, short flights
around to different parts of Europe to explore. Then ideally plan a ship that
leaves Europe to head somewhere else or home... I've been reading about
digital nomads, very interesting to me. Living out of a suitcase traveling the
world or traveling around North America in an RV. Would love to do both.

There's some world cruises that last a half a year but the price of a new car
or more. Kinda always wanted to see the Pyramids or Great Wall of China, but
long flight being cramped and not sure how much in a place so foreign I'd want
to go alone. Idk maybe someday if I get lucky... But before I would plan half
the year at sea, I'd probably take a week-long cruise around the Caribbean to
get a taste of it.

I wonder the demographics of world cruises. Probably business owners who can
spend half a year away from work with enough money to pay for it, or retired
people...

I think most people just do a week-long cruise as a vacation though.

------
sudomakeup
One should also consider the Airline industry. Especially the climate change
activists that regularly fly.

~~~
masonic

      the climate change activists
    

The wealthy ones (e.g. Gore, DiCaprio, Huffington) fly in private jets, not
commercial.

------
sschueller
Why can't we make these ships run on nuclear reactors?

Technically it should be possible and the only hold up is money or am I
missing something?

~~~
manfredo
My understanding is that nuclear maritime power would be widely used were it
not for the public perception of nuclear power as an unstable and dangerous
source of power.

Consider the fact, though, that the US Navy is the largest user of nuclear
power if measured by number of units, and has operated these units without
significant incident for over half a century.

~~~
lolc
For those wondering what "for over half a century" means: 1968 the nuclear
submarine USS Scorpion sank and hasn't been recovered.

It's certainly debatable whether the current use of heavy oil in shipping is
preferable to nuclear power. However I find it highly doubtful the civil
sector could replicate the impressive track record of the US navy regarding
operating nuclear reactors on ships and submarines.

------
growlist
The disgustingly filthy emissions of maritime transport and lack of action on
it make me pretty cynical about the ongoing crackdown on internal combustion
motoring. LPG is possible, so it's not like we don't have alternatives.

~~~
skywhopper
I think you are missing the fact that these numbers seem so wildly skewed
because the "crackdown on internal combustion" is working. The regulatory
efforts around curbing automobile pollution have had a _massively_ positive
impact on air quality in the past several decades. The ratio here is 1000000:1
largely _because_ of those regulations.

~~~
masonic
This ignores that ships burn _bunker fuel_ which is far dirtier than diesel.

