
Immigrant entrepreneur creates 9 jobs, get kicked out of US - forgingahead
http://digg.com/newsbar/business/immigrant_creates_u_s_jobs_gets_boot_over_visa
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ars
Why are we linking this via digg?

Real url: [http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Economy/visa-problem-
prevents...](http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Economy/visa-problem-prevents-
entrepreneur-creating-american-jobs/story?id=14857757)

Flagged, hoping a mod will change the url.

~~~
cantbecool
I was thinking the same thing.

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ck2
I seriously do not understand why people come/stay here given the way they are
treated by our government. You must be masochists. Things have actually gotten
worse under Obama, not better (and I am liberal).

What is it like in Israel for startups? In theory his kind of internet startup
could work from almost anywhere in the world. Since he is in Vancouver now,
might as well bring in the tax dollars for Canada.

ps. what is with linking through Digg for this - and they are still framing
sites?

~~~
angkec
I come from China. And US is still way better than China to start a small tech
startup. Don't know much about Israel though.

~~~
ck2
Sure, I get that, but if you could go to Vancouver (which apparently is a
startup-mecca too) you'd have far less fear about being deported (and ill will
from nearly 50% of the population). Why put yourself through that - running a
business is enough stress.

The USA is like going to a store, filling up your cart, but just before you
are about to checkout and make them money, they drag you out the door instead.

~~~
BadassFractal
I seriously doubt the Vancouver scene is even remotely as big as the one in
the Bay Area. The only thing that comes close to SV on this continent is NY,
and even that is a decade behind.

~~~
ck2
But do you need the "biggest and best" scene, or do you just need a decent
environment where what you are trying to do is not uncommon and the resources
you need have already been established?

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Zimahl
I've been at a startup that was about as far outside of the bay area as
possible - North Idaho. We had a great product in a nice space and were fairly
successful at selling it and making modest profit.

But the start was rough. Unless it's a one-person gig (and there aren't many
of those out there) you need two things - bodies and money. The further you
are away from metro areas the harder it is to find both - the people with the
skills either left or are already working somewhere and the investors aren't
multi-millionaires, they are angels with $10-20k each, sometimes $100k+.

It's possible though. That startup eventually sold but long after a more
inferior competitor sold for a lot more which had more to do with their
location (Cali, I think in the valley) than how well they functioned. And the
company I was with sold for less than we thought it would and long after the
window in which acquisition would have been ideal.

There's just no visibility outside of major (tech hub) metro areas. You don't
get any buzz even if you are in magazines and the like, and you don't have the
contacts that can really help you out. It's a major negative.

Pure (somewhat educated) conjecture: if that startup would've been in Seattle
or Portland it would've sold much earlier and for much more than it did, maybe
in year 6 instead of year 10. If in the Bay area I think it would've sold by
year 3 instead of year 10.

~~~
mgkimsal
Sounds like if the goals are acquisition and quick payouts, the place to be is
SV. However, you indicated that the company in Idaho was better run or had a
better product. Isn't that better for the end users in the long run? Wouldn't
that indicate there's a better chance of a company staying around for the long
haul and providing better service and what not?

Wouldn't be surprising at all if your competitor that was acquired was
absorbed or shut down within a year. For the founders - sure, that's success -
they had an exit. But how is this necessarily good for the long term economics
of those businesses?

The original video story on this talked about all the jobs that 'high tech
entrepreneurs' create. But how long do those jobs last? Sure, there's no such
thing as a 30 year job for most people any more, but isn't this type of
behaviour contributing or accelerating this trend?

~~~
Zimahl
True, the main goal wasn't necessarily getting acquired, although typically
that's what you expect to happen with a lot of tech startups. To get big we
would've had to change direction (which wouldn't have been a bad idea).

Whether or not we were to get acquired, it was just tough to find quality
employees and the money to pay them until sales went into the black. It took
about 3 years to become solvent and even then that did help luring good
programmers to Idaho.

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HistoryInAction
Amit and CruiseWise went through StartupChile, btw. I'm somewhat disappointed
that the international talent competition angle didn't play into the story
more, based on our initial pitch. We (Bloomberg administration, Startup Visa)
pitched this story to ABC with the added angle of capital flight, since
CruiseWise raised money from US investors.

Not only are people being denied the opportunity to create jobs in the US, but
US money is following them out of the country. Not a good combination, right?

If you're interested in helping out, crowdsource a few calls to the House to
collect staffer information, to 10x our advocacy effectiveness, here is a call
script
([https://docs.google.com/document/d/1H5S8SZjA2SSDUGfQxKV4isjd...](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1H5S8SZjA2SSDUGfQxKV4isjdFYdqPX_17WyjdO2I_4w/edit?hl=en_US))
and spreadsheet
([https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CIeunIEE&...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CIeunIEE&key=0AmI-
gd7FhP5TdFlHS0s0bloxRl9ETVZtaVVXX0oxX2c&hl=en_US&authkey))

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kyledeb
I was born and raised in Guatemala of U.S. citizen parents and I spend most of
my time fighting this broken and violent immigration system through
citizenorange.com and presente.org. I'm a lurker here on hacker news mostly
because technology news is a welcome respite from this mess.

I just wanted to say that I don't blame folks if they decide the U.S. is not
the place to be. God knows I hope to be able to do some of my pro-migrant work
from Guatemala someday. At the same time I wanted to tell people that there is
a way to fight this messed up system which DREAMers (undocumented youth who
only know the U.S. as their home) have paved the way for.

It will be a long time before Congress fixes this mostly because debates over
the immigration system have nothing to do with rationality, they have mostly
to do with the contentious subject of what it means to be an 'American,' where
xenophobic ideas certainly play a large role. In the meantime, though, there
are administrative things that can be done through Obama administration if you
fight hard enough for them and embarass them enough. I'm certain, for example,
that this entrepeneur will be fine after this article for instance (he's also
lucky he's dealing with USCIS and not ICE).

I'm just writing this all out in case there are folks out there who are
willing to give coming here to the U.S. a shot and taking on fixing this
broken immigration system in addition to creating companies. If all the good
folks leave, this problem will never get fixed. And if it looks like your
against the wall, there's a good network of pro-migrant activists like me that
will fight for you to resist and stay.

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burgerbrain
Immigration in the US has never been a _"took our jobs"_ thing. Not sincerely.
It has _always_ been about xenophobia.

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Newgy
No, its about the fact that several billion people will come here if the door
is completely open.

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Symmetry
"Several" billion? That's half the world's population.

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anamax
> "Several" billion? That's half the world's population.

Yes, it is. Are you suggesting that more than half of the world's population
wouldn't move to the US if doing so was a reasonable option for them?

Seriously - for most people, being poor in the US would be a huge step up. (As
someone put it, almost every "Occupy" protestor is in the 1% on a world-wide
basis.) And they're pretty sure that they would do better than the worst.

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todsul
As a tech entrepreneur and global itinerant, I'd love immigration laws around
the world to be more lax, but please...

    
    
      "One of the 20 Hot Silicon Valley Startups You Need to Watch"
    

If this were true, I think there'd be more of a case. But remember there are
other people in this world aside from tech entrepreneurs. Some of them are in
pretty horrid situations and seek asylum.

Assuming the US has an intake quota and that intake quota is divided between
reasons for immigration, then proponents of the Startup Visa are petitioning
that other seekers of asylum or immigration take a back seat. I absolutely
support this to an extent, but do we want them to deny all non-tech immigrants
for every kid with a website?

At what point does a startup deserve to take someone else's place in the
queue. And I'm well aware that politicians hate to concede there's a queue,
but of course there is.

~~~
HistoryInAction
Actually, there's a bunch of 'visa slack,' since the 10,000 limit for the EB-5
investor visas generally only sees 1-2000 successful applications. What the
primary Startup Visa bills call for is to take those unused EB-5 visas and
make them available to founders.

The argument is that sweat equity should be equivalent in some way to cash
money investment, which is what the EB-5 represents.

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deyan
Update: USCIS just reversed its decision and allowed back Amit into the
country. (Source: he just posted on his facebook wall).

I know Amit and how hard working he is and am very thankful this was resolved
so quickly. At the same time, I hope it grows into something more than just a
lone media frenzy-induced example. If the US is to stay competitive, it needs
to reconsider its immigration policies. (Full disclosure: I am a foreigner
myself).

~~~
forgingahead
Edit -- link here: <https://www.facebook.com/aaharoni/posts/10150442627214283>

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casca
The fundamental problem with immigration rules is that the people who follow
them are usually the ones a country wants. The skilled, educated people are
unwilling to risk getting deported and having worldwide travel restrictions
for the rest of their lives.

The desperate unskilled have far less to lose if they are caught so are more
willing to take the chance.

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jakeonthemove
The only things the US has left are the culture and the hype - people are
either taken in by the ability to be at the epicenter (which is very important
for most entrepreneurs) or by the propaganda/marketing/promises. Otherwise,
it's pretty easy to start a company in other countries, especially if it's
mainly operating online.

The US is unbeatable in one thing, though: you can find almost anything you
want at prices much lower than any other countries. That's an important
advantage no matter what industry you're in, or heck, even for everyday life.

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Zimahl
Wait, why did he leave?

It's not like he'd get deported even if he got arrested, sure as hell wouldn't
happen in California. Just continue working and have your lawyers stall and
get the Visa stuff handled. You won't be able to travel outside the states and
then come back in until your paperwork is done but that shouldn't be a huge
problem in the internet world we live in. Or have an investor sponsor you at
one of their (most likely many) companies so you have a valid job that the
government can't complain about.

To be fair, the government is only going by what they know. If anyone could go
created an LLC, call themselves CEO and be free to work here then everyone
would do it. Most likely he didn't keep up with his visa paperwork and this is
the result.

~~~
deyan
If he doesn't leave, he risks quite a bit - he might be banned from
visiting/working in the country and indeed even deported.

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rbreve
There is an easy solution to this problem: mary a US citizen

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jheriko
So, this guy started working before he had his visa? Even worse he started a
job that required personal, non-refundable investments of time and money. I
have zero sympathy - this is common sense. Sure they shouldn't have rejected
his application as they did, but he shouldn't have assumed he would easily get
the visa. Not the kind of guy I would want to work for... at least until he
learns some basic life skills to match that education.

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dotBen
_"So, this guy started working before he had his visa? Even worse he started a
job that required personal, non-refundable investments of time and money._ "

Have you read the requirements of an E2 Investor Visa? You have to:

* Set the company up (register your C-Corp/LLC, etc)

* Invest/put a large amount of money at risk

* Employ staff

BEFORE you apply for the visa itself.

~~~
jheriko
Very valid points. I was not aware there was a special Visa for
investors/entrepreneurs.

