
Which airlines ban the use of Knee Defenders during flight? - edward
http://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/35765/which-airlines-ban-the-use-of-knee-defenders-during-flight
======
watty
I can't believe so many people see reclining as rude, it's the design of the
seats. If the person in front of you reclines, recline your own seat.

This product is like covering up your neighbors reading light because it
bothers you. It's not yours to turn on/off. Lack of space is part of air
travel, if you can't fit your laptop on a tray that is reclined then pay for
first class or get a smaller laptop.

~~~
DrJokepu
By reclining your seat all the way back you're forcing the person behind you
to recline his seat all the way back, which in turn forces the person behind
the person behind you to recline his seat an so on, it's just not a very
mindful thing to do because you're actively forcing your preferences on
everyone else. I feel like reclining more than halfway through is only fair if
there's nobody sitting behind you or if that person had already reclined his
seat.

I don't think these are strict rules or anything, you are certainly entitled
to do whatever you wish, it's really just a question of politeness.

~~~
notahacker
_Airlines_ enforced their preferences on everybody else when they decided - at
the cost of some very expensive additional weight - that seats can and should
be able to recline. If they didn't intend for customers to recline the seats
it's perfectly possible to install or modify seats to make reclining
impossible (some do) or to instruct people not to recline seats at certain
times it might be inappropriate (all do). They also designed seats so it
wasn't wholly impossible to sit behind a reclined seat (or indeed climb out of
the seat) without reclining. So the people forcing their preferences are the
ones insisting they have the right to restrict the inclination of the seat in
front.

Sure, out of politeness I might refrain from using the intended functionality
of the seat if you ask nicely (same goes for switching off the light or
redirecting the airflow nozzle, and I might choose to delay my toilet break to
avoid disturbing your sleep). My sense of politeness tends to go out the
window when people start suggesting its selfish or impolite for me _not_ to
coordinate my cabin controls to their liking.

~~~
DrJokepu
Yes I mostly agree with that, even though I don't normally recline my seat if
someone behind me used a Knee Defender I'd definitely complain about it, just
out of spite as it's also not a very polite thing to do.

------
butwhy
I really love reclining. As a tall guy, it makes long flights significantly
better. Albeit I usually fly in economy on budget airlines so can't usually
recline far, but I'm still appreciative of what I get. It saddens me that
people want to disrupt others and disable functionality that the seat/plane
was engineered to have. Although I always recline very slowly to be least
shocking to the person behind me and obviously not during meal time etc.

~~~
CHY872
As a tall guy, I find that my knees are at most a couple of inches from the
seat in front. When the person in front of me reclines and their chair hits my
knees, it's clear that I'll be uncomfortable for the entire remainder of the
flight. I don't recline; I judge people who do it in front of me as selfish,
and I don't want to be hypocritical.

~~~
nemesisj
"tall guy" is a qualitative statement, not quantitative.

I'm 6'4". My knees always touch the seat in front of me - reclining helps me
angle my legs a bit more so I have a few more positions for my legs,
particularly on 8+ hour flights, which I often take. It also helps my back
hurt less, and often means a significant difference (>1 hour more) in the
amount of sleep I get on a flight.

I'm not sure why using the seat as it's meant (particularly in response to
someone else using the seat in the same way in front of you) is perceived as
selfish.

Granted, I often purchase Economy Comfort/Plus/Premier seats on redeye flights
of more than 6 hours, but sometimes it's not an option.

~~~
Sephiroth87
I'm 6'4" as well, and it really sucks that I should have to pay just to fit my
legs in the seat, let alone be comfortable...

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Come on, you have to buy longer jeans, and extra-long-sleeved shirts, and
probably bigger shoes. They all cost more. And given society's worshipping of
tall people, it can't really suck. Not buying it; no sympathy from me.

~~~
Sephiroth87
I'm not sure if you're joking or not, or what kind of shops you frequent, but
I never had to pay any extra because my jeans were longer...

~~~
JoeAltmaier
If you can find them at all. Not on the discount rack for sure. I end up
having to buy them wherever I can find them, often at a ridiculous price.

------
Grue3
Once I almost got my laptop crushed because the person sitting in front of me
reclined their seat and it caught the laptop's screen (it was standing on the
tray). If only I had this "knee defender" it wouldn't have been a problem. I
mean, how is that guy supposed to know they shouldn't recline at this very
moment? If they can't recline because of knee defender, they will ask me and
I'll be able to save my laptop from danger.

~~~
nly
Maybe you should just accept that using a laptop in economy is crazy to begin
with. Read a book, use a tablet, enjoy the crappy in-flight, talk to your
neighbour, or have snooze instead.

~~~
michaelochurch
I may be showing my age here, but I remember when flying wasn't something to
be dreaded. The few inches we've lost have really made a difference. Twenty
years ago, you could read or use a laptop in coach and first-class was a frill
for rich people.

In 2015, aside from the people with upgrades, most people in first-class don't
want to be there (i.e. they're not there because they're wealthy, but because
their disabilities or age make coach literally impossible) and most actual
rich people fly private because even first class isn't great.

I find that the only thing that I can do on planes, these days, is take a
pill, make sure I get 2 armrests (I'm 6' and 195 pounds) and nod off-- and I
don't sleep very well. If we had 300 mph trains at competitive prices like
Europe and Japan have, I'd rather take those.

~~~
nly
20 years ago very few people had laptops. In fact, say 20-25 years ago, flying
at all was a luxury (at least for most of us in Europe). I don't dispute that
legroom has become stingy as air traffic has increased, but I think it's
unfortunate to use ye olden days to set expectations for today. 'Economy'
implies getting people from A to B as economically as possible.

An inch of extra legroom means fewer seats on the plane, and even if I had to
pay 5% ($40-50) more, then it's too much. Some of the 'premium economy'
options aren't that expensive anyhow. I flew Virgin Atlantic in April and only
paid something like $60 for a bit of extra room (and as a bonus, because few
people do, had an empty seat next to me).

Another thing with regard to your age, and I mean no disrespect, is that I
believe ones tolerance for certain kinds of discomfort tend to decrease with
age.

~~~
michaelochurch
_Another thing with regard to your age, and I mean no disrespect, is that I
believe ones tolerance for certain kinds of discomfort tend to decrease with
age._

I'm not that old (31). I just happen to remember a time when air travel wasn't
horrible.

Older people are actually far more tolerant of discomfort. They just suffer
more bodily pain when conditions aren't right.

5% being $40-50 means an airfare of $800 to $1000. If domestic flights cost
that much, then we should consider airlines forgone for domestic travel and
elect officials who'll make competent train service (not necessarily
government run, but with infrastructural improvements and revisions of right-
of-way laws that enable passenger rail competition) a #1 priority. As for
international flights, the reason you see four-digit fares is the very high
taxes on those, and the monopolies that airports have, and various other weird
factors involving pilot unions and seniority tiers. NYC-HKG really should only
cost about $850.

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woliveirajr
Some companies even advertise that your seat will recline more if you pay some
extra for it.

Take a look: [https://www.voegol.com.br/pt-br/servicos/assento-mais-
confor...](https://www.voegol.com.br/pt-br/servicos/assento-mais-confor..).

So, yes, reclining your seat is included in what you pay, you can even pay
more to recline more your seat, and low-cost companies are known for having
non-reclining seats ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-
cost_carrier](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-cost_carrier)).

------
arethuza
Some European charter airlines (i.e. airlines that move people for package
holidays) now have fixed "slimline" seats that can't recline and are
_incredibly_ uncomfortable.

We flew back from Turkey last year on a brand new Airbus with slimline seats
and it was purgatory. I really hope this trend doesn't catch on with regular
airlines.

~~~
gambiting
I flew hundreds of times in EU, between different countries and using
different airlines,and I have never ever been on a plane with reclining seats.
It's mostly Airbuses A319/320 and Boeings 737-300 that I flew in, and none of
them had adjustable seats.

~~~
arethuza
I don't generally recline seats as although I'm 6'1" I've got relatively short
legs... but those seats were an abomination and seemed to be fixed with the
backs at an very steep angle.

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moondowner
I travel from time to time in Europe, and some airlines don't allow passengers
to recline their seats (even though the seats are not fixed).

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IgorPartola
So this device is basically a rude substitute for "hey would you mind not
reclining so far? The seat is hitting my knees."?

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glomph
This thread is incredible.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3dYS7PcAG4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3dYS7PcAG4)

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jpatokal
Unfortunately the selected answer is meaningless. Quoting mine, which is below
and has a higher score <grumble grumble>:

 _Such a list [of airlines] would not be meaningful. All airlines have wide
rules to prohibit "tampering" with seats, with Knee Defenders or otherwise;
you can improvise one with a well-sized bottle, after all. Those that point
out the Knee Defender as banned are only making it explicit that this specific
device is not allowed._

 _More to the point, if the passenger unable to recline complains, the flight
attendants will insist that you stop using it._

~~~
DanBC
Your answer is not an answer and should have been a comment instead.

Rejecting the premise of the question is very frustrating and causes some
people to not bother with SE. At least leave a comment asking if they'd
consider different types of answer, but otherwise just ignore the question.

~~~
jpatokal
So if somebody asks on SE "How many minutes should I microwave my baby to dry
them after a bath?", you would not consider "Don't" an acceptable answer?

~~~
DanBC
Can you not see the difference between the two questions? There's no point
continuing this discussion if you can't.

~~~
jpatokal
Suppose the question was "Which airlines ban whacking reclining passengers on
the head with rubber chickens?", and I answered "Well, they don't specifically
ban assaults with rubber chickens, but any airline's T&C will have something
banning violence against other passengers".

Is my answer still off-topic? And how does this differ from what's essentially
the same Q & A re: Knee Defenders? At the end of the day, the issue is that
_you can 't tamper aircraft_, not that you're doing it with a Knee Defender
specifically.

------
mechazawa
Knee defenders are essential to me because I have long legs. But more
importantly it protects my laptop. I've had an incident where the person in
front of me suddenly reclined whilst I had my laptop on my tray table. The
screen got stuck on the lever to lock the tray table and cracked under the
pressure.

~~~
kriro
I usually just talk to the person in front of me to inform them that I'll use
a laptop. Maybe I'm lucky but it's usually pretty easy to work it out. I had
never heard of Knee Defenders before today. I think it's fairly rude to just
install them.

~~~
wink
Other people find it rude to recline.

I mean, I had people stop reclining because they couldn't move their seat.
They look back and see me smiling because my knees block it.

Disclaimer: I'm from Europe, we usually fly in very small planes where there's
literally no way to have space unless paying 2-3x the price for business
class.

~~~
calgoo
Same here :) I can handle 2 hours more less with no space (easy Jet for
example), but anything more and my knees start to hurt.

I also think its incredible rude to recline, especially forcefully, like some
people have done to me.

I think that these egomaniac people are the same that get to the end of an
escalator and stop to see where they should go, or exiting a train and doing
the same thing blocking the exit / entrance to anyone else.

~~~
loco5niner
I think you are projecting "egomaniac" on people who are likely ignorant of
the problems they are causing.

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benihana
This entire thread reads like:

"it's such a bummer that other people are so inconsiderate that it has to come
to this."

~~~
glomph
Agreed. Makes me think of this Louis CK bit:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3dYS7PcAG4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3dYS7PcAG4)

