
Showing the world how real soy sauce is supposed to taste - MiriamWeiner
http://www.bbc.com/travel/gallery/20190225-a-750-year-old-japanese-secret
======
sametmax
A lot of food is like that.

E.G: most people never tasted balsamic vinegar, only a mix of regular vinegar
with a bit of grapes dust, plus some caramel and flour added to it. Real
balsamic vinegar is hard to find and bloody expensive, because the process of
making it reduces an entire barel of wine to a bottle.

But we don't need to go that far. I regularly meet children that have never
tasted a vegetable or fruit that tasted very good.

It's not their fault they prefer the kit kat. The kit kat taste WAY better
than the red plastic clown nose people told them are tomatoes.

But good fruits and vegetable taste awesome. A proper tomatoes can even be
eater as-is, like an apple, with nothing on it. A quality olive oil is a feast
in itself with some bread and pepper. A nice pomelo has no need to get added
sugar to compensate for excess bitterness.

Generally, as more people have access to more food, we also managed to
diminush the taste and nutriment it provides.

P.S: this slider format is terrible. I didn't get to the end of the article
because of it.

~~~
jimmy1
> A lot of food is like that.

I swear people in America have never tasted a real, juicy, succulent tomato. I
know why we distribute our tomatoes the way we do, but we should stop, because
they are shit. It's always these tasteless, bland red things I don't even
bother to call a tomato. Every time I go to Europe, it's weird, but one of the
things i absolutely crave is real tomatoes.

~~~
crazygringo
Huh? Anybody in America who grows tomatoes in their garden or who goes to a
farmer's market where local tomatoes are in season has.

True that supermarkets don't carry them, but if you want one and live
somewhere where they're grown, it's not too hard.

Also, supermarket cherry tomatoes and grape tomatoes tend to be pretty good,
at least compared to the larger ones. Sure they're not the same as fresh from
the garden, but they're still hugely more flavorful.

~~~
sametmax
> Also, supermarket cherry tomatoes and grape tomatoes tend to be pretty good,
> at least compared to the larger ones. Sure they're not the same as fresh
> from the garden, but they're still hugely more flavorful.

That's what tells me the parent is right. Those are not _bad_, but they can't
be considered as very good products, I swear. Sometime I wish I could just
send gift tomatoes by email to random people.

~~~
jimmy1
Please send them to me. My "farmers markets" here are just selling the same
boxes of produce the grocery store gets.

------
AdmiralAsshat
It's amazing how many foods in their highest quality state are just two or
three ingredients plus _time_.

Balsamic vinegar - Grapes, stored in wooden casks, allowed to age for 12-15
years, gradually moving the fluid to smaller and smaller barrels as the fluid
evaporates and concentrates, until the final product fits into a small bottle.

Parmeggiano Reggiano - Unpasteurized cow's milk, with a little bit of lactic
acid and rennet, packed, brined, and allowed to age for at least 12 months.

Whiskey - Distilled grain, stored in a charred oak cask and allowed to age for
however many years.

Whenever we try to cheat the time factor, we inevitably introduce substitutes,
additives, or agitators that result in a worse product at the trade-off of
being faster to produce and more widely available.

~~~
jaclaz
That (JFYI) is Parm _igiano_ Reggiano.

Vinegar (balsamic or not) does need some "mycoderma aceti":

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_of_vinegar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_of_vinegar)

for many vinegar producers it is a "family treasure" often more than one
century old.

------
nate_meurer
I know nothing about soy sauce or brewing in general, so naturally I will now
prescribe improvements to the process from my perch on HN:

Why not get rid of the ridiculously complicated (but truly beautiful) barrels,
and instead use pieces of kioke wood, maybe from actual kioke barrels, in
stainless vats? In other words, brew the soy sauce in stainless vats, but seed
the cultures using pieces of wood that harbor the microbes. Why does the wood
need to take the form of a barrel?

This would be similar to how I make traditional kefir, or how my mother makes
kombucha. We just put the stuff in a glass jar (milk for kefir or tea+sugar
for kombucha), and add bugs. In this process, a big piece of koike would serve
the same purpose as kefir grains or a kombucha baby; it would supply the
biology, and the brewing process in turn would feed the microbial colonies in
the wood, the same way making kefir feeds the bugs in the kefir grains so you
can keep using them indefinitely.

To anyone who actually knows about brewing: does this sound remotely
plausible?

~~~
cthalupa
>Why not get rid of the ridiculously complicated (but truly beautiful)
barrels, and instead use pieces of kioke wood, maybe from actual kioke
barrels, in stainless vats? In other words, brew the soy sauce in stainless
vats, but seed the cultures using pieces of wood that harbor the microbes. Why
does the wood need to take the form of a barrel?

I do a lot of beer homebrewing, including long term lambic-style sour beers in
barrels, which actually shares a lot of similarities with shoyu brewing.

Surface ratio is the big thing here. It affects not only how much of the
flavor comes from the wood itself, but also oxygen ingress, etc. With shoyu
it's open air, so a bit different compared to beer or wine which is usually
aged in a sealed barrel, but it does affect the total amount of oxygen in
there, even with an open fermentation. Oxygen will get in through wood, it
won't through steel. But in general with chips or rods/spirals, you are
imparting the wood flavor very quickly in comparison to a barrel, especially
an old one. Depending on the biological interactions taking place, the
organisms might not be able to process all of that in the same way they would
over a longer period of time - they might have different reactions when some
compounds are present in higher numbers, than if it is smaller. With beer
brewing, if you are using brettanomyces strains of yeast, they produce
entirely different flavors if the brett is used as the primary fermenter when
there's tons of sugars available, or secondary/co-pitched fermenters where
saccharomyces takes care of most of the sugars.

I expect you get different flavors from new kioke barrels as well - many
microorganisms can eat the sugars in wood, so you're likely to have a
different bioflora profile in something fermenting in a new barrel vs. one
where it's all already been digested. And there's other processes that'll
bring in flavors from fresh wood vs. old. It's a lot harder to maintain
something like chips or even rods or spirals over the multiple decades of use
you can get out of barrels.

It's not that I don't think all of those variables are possible to account
for, in the theoretical sense, but no one has so far. Cantillon, a brewery in
Belgium that is quite famous for their lambic beers has a sign in their
brewery that translates to "Time does not respect that which is done without
it", and in my experience, it's been true so far.

(Interestingly enough, there's other parallels with Cantillon here - this
story talks about the microflora living in the eaves, etc. When expanding
their barrel aging program to a new facility, they went and sprayed the whole
thing down with their beer to try and jumpstart the microbes being in the
environment.)

~~~
nate_meurer
Fascinating. I see what you're saying: these thick pieces of wood, perpetually
saturated for decades but open to the air on one side, with the gas diffusion
that entails, are possibly homes to whole ecosystems. A world of microflora in
each plank, and probably very complex chemical dynamics between the wood walls
and the stuff inside. I think the article said there are differences in taste
even between the different barrels. Also that Kikkoman was unable to replicate
the process. Makes perfect sense now.

That thing you said about the brewery trying to transfer their microbiome to a
new facility -- I've heard something similar about sourdough bakeries: that
each is colonized by a unique population of bugs that results in a unique
character of bread. It's a wild, wonderful idea to me.

Thank you for your comment; I learn so much here.

------
azinman2
I have a bottle of traditionally made shoyu... and it tastes like.. soy sauce.
Yes it’s nicer than your average soy sauce — it has more complexity, but it’s
not magically something totally different.

~~~
hangonhn
I'll chime in too but about balsamic vinegar since someone else mentioned it.
I've purchased store bought massed produced balsamic vinegar, American
produced balsamic vinegar made in Napa, and DOP regulated balsamic vinegar
aged 24 years from an acetaia in Modena. The difference between the first two
is enormous. Massed produced balsamic vinegar is quite runny and quite
"shallow" in favor. But between the latter two, the difference is much, much
more subtle. For some things I honestly prefer the Whole Food purchased,
produced in Napa balsamic vinegar I picked up for about $10 because I can
really be a little indulgent. The Modena balsamic vinegar is almost too
precious to use because the bottle is TINY and costed almost $50 (price I paid
in Italy; double that if in the US). I mainly use it for special occasions or
to flatter dinner guests. Also, Costco's IGP regulated balsamic is pretty
comparable but I've found that their quality actually differs quite a bit
between brands despite being regulated. But it's like $14 for a big bottle.

~~~
azinman2
I also have some fancy balsamic aged 30+ years in this small town in Italy
where I bought it at a food expo in Florence blhablhab... and it's AMAZING.
And really expensive (like 80+ euros for the tiny thing). But it's also so
thick you'd never use it the way you'd use most balsamics. There's a huge
range in how balsamic can taste, and I believe you generally get what you pay
for here.

The nice soy sauce is a bit more of diminishing returns for me personally.

------
mithr
Samin Nosrat visited this soy producer as part of her Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat
show... the Salt episode is dedicated to Japan, where she also tries
traditional miso (which is apparently similarly complex in its original form).
Very interesting to watch if you haven't.

Joining the fray of the discussions above, I think we can acknowledge both the
pros and the cons of the mass-availability of things that used to be hard to
come by. It's true that the $150/bottle, traditional balsamic vinegar, in its
special glass bottle (aged for a minimum of 15 years), is pretty far removed
from even the good balsamics that can be found in most grocery stores. If you
have a chance to try it, you'll gain a deeper understanding of what made
balsamic vinegar special to begin with, and a better idea of why _some_
version of it is now available to everyone.

But, as others have said, that's not to say that commonly available balsamic
vinegars are uniformly _bad_, either. There certainly _are_ bad mass-produced
balsamic vinegars, but also plenty of mass-produced good ones that are
perfectly appropriate for cooking or dressing a salad (or even having on their
own, though for me they tend to me a bit too acidic-tasting to really enjoy,
whereas the $150 bottle isn't) without breaking the bank.

I think the lesson we can learn from top-quality traditional balsamic, top-
quality traditional soy sauce, and the like, is that these ingredients did use
to have a deeper, much more complex flavor, and that we have traded some of
that away -- out of necessity -- in order to make them available to a larger
number of people at lower cost. I think there's a place for both versions, but
also that we should acknowledge that they are _not_ the same; they're just
optimizing for different goals.

------
blakesterz
I'm not sure if I loved or hated that presentation format.

I had no idea there was anything so complicated to soy sauce! Apparently you
can buy the good stuff from this article on Amazon, Yamaroku, it's $42 for 18
ozs.

So often I find when I try something that is supposed to be the BEST version
of something (like wine for example) I just end of thinking "Well it's
different, but I can't say it's OMG great", but I know I don't have "super
taster" powers.

Can anyone comment on just how different this tastes from the usual stuff we
get at the store or the usual stuff from the restaurants? Is it that much
better?

~~~
gingerbread-man
$42 on Amazon is a huge ripoff. I think it's about $20 a bottle at my local
Asian grocery store. I like it, but I don't have "super taster" powers either
so take that for what you will.

------
CydeWeys
Is it just me or did the article play up the "the art of making kioke was
almost lost forever" angle a little too much? The world as a whole has
certainly not lost the art of making wooden fermentation barrels, as they are
still widely used in many other industries, so the worst that might happen is
needing to fly in some foreign coopers to examine the kioke and then start
making copies using indigenous wood. I get that the Japanese might not count
that as entirely authentic because they're heavy on tradition, but the results
would be the same. Bacteria are the same everywhere.

~~~
busterarm
Narrative is at the essence of what makes something premium, whether that
narrative is true or not.

This is like the story around Yemeni coffee/Port of Mokha, Chinese companies
buying defunct Japanese camera brands, etc. This happens with watch brands,
clothing companies, motorcycles, etc.

That said, I'm a sucker for this bullshit and bought both of the 4-year aged
sauces they sell. And yes, I bought Port of Mokha (which wasn't much different
from other high-end coffee beans but at 2-3x the price) too

~~~
CydeWeys
How was the "real" soy sauce? I'd totally buy some to try it. I definitely
like soy sauce and can eat it on a lot of things.

And you're right about the narrative, but the BBC is in theory an impartial
news organization, and shouldn't be playing into the narrative advertising
requirements of the company being profiled. The fact is that even if the
knowledge of making wooden barrels had been lost in Japan entirely, it could
still be restarted by bringing in experts from abroad with no material
differences in outcome. Fermenting for longer in wooden barrels definitely
does affect the end result; exactly where the knowledge to build those barrels
comes from so long as they're made of the same materials does not.

~~~
busterarm
I won't receive it until April.

~~~
CydeWeys
This article at least I'm sure will be good for their sales; too bad it's so
hard for them to scale up production!

~~~
busterarm
Yeah there were a few sources online where it would have been half the price
but was out of stock.

I vastly overpaid Amazon. It's worth it to me though, because my approach to
cooking is to take as few shortcuts as possible and start from the best, most-
basic ingredients I can get my hands on. I tend to stick to Japanese, Korean
and Mexican cuisines. Started doing my own fermentation this year with things
like sauerkraut, hot sauces, miso...

------
ksec
Soy Source isn't from Japan. It originated from China. And if _real_ Soy
source meant it is fermented in the old fashion, non industrialise way, there
are actually a few Hong Kong brands still doing it and they are very much
affordable.

The best one I tasted however came from South Korea, and it isn't available in
any Retail Store as the Restaurant ( Or more like a Palace ) made it
themselves.

~~~
jonathanyc
Funny how so often gatekeeping involves rewriting history to ignore anything
older than modern nation states :)

~~~
cthalupa
The article is about traditional Japanese soy sauce, or shoyu.

An article about traditional Chinese soy sauce, or jiangyou, would be very
different. And the products are quite different as well.

Most of the Western world is thinking of Japanese style soy sauce when they
just see 'soy sauce', though, and the BBC is targeting a western audience.
They do explain in the article that it was originally imported to Japan from
China.

------
NelsonMinar
If you're in the US want to treat yourself to some good barrel aged soy sauce
without any hassle, Kishibori Shoyu is on Amazon. It's at $20 for a small
bottle, which is about 50-100% more than what it'll cost in a store (typical
markup for Amazon specialty food products). I have seen it on store shelves in
the US too.

Anyway, it's absolutely delicious and has a lot more complex flavor than your
generic Kikkoman or whatever. For use only as a seasoning, cook with something
cheaper.
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005GQYXTC/ref=oh_aui_sear...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005GQYXTC/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8)

An article about this particular soy sauce:
[https://www.epicurious.com/expert-advice/this-is-the-best-
so...](https://www.epicurious.com/expert-advice/this-is-the-best-soy-sauce-
article)

------
anilakar
Shouldn't it be possible to store and grow the bacteria at an industrial
scale, just like large breweries grow and closely guard their secret yeast
strands? If the wood is an essential part, why not line the steel vats with
cedar?

~~~
kevinmchugh
Most breweries maintain a couple of different yeast cultures, each of which is
a single strain of saccharomyces. Every organism in each sample is genetically
identical, to the extent that's possible.

This is much more akin to sour breweries. They will have some samples, and
they may even buy different fermenting organisms from yeast companies, but
part of their appeal is the spontaneity and variety that comes from a mixed-
culture fermentation. These kioke look like open-top foeders. Coolships are
another tool used for wild and spontaneous fermentations.

Adding wood to steel vats might be possible, but you have to worry about the
surface area to volume ratio.

------
anfractuosity
This little national geographic video is cool too -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMmyamL4VGw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMmyamL4VGw)
'A 750-Year-Old Secret: See How Soy Sauce Is Still Made Today'

------
CryoLogic
Most wasabi sold in the U.S. is green-dyed horseradish.

~~~
peterwwillis
Yeah, because the real deal costs $130 per pound:
[https://firstwefeast.com/eat/2014/09/real-wasabi-is-one-
of-t...](https://firstwefeast.com/eat/2014/09/real-wasabi-is-one-of-the-most-
expensive-crops-on-the-planet)

~~~
grogenaut
It's apparently not that hard to grow in a hydroponic setup, it needs flowing
water though. wonder why no one has done that.

~~~
splonk
Everything I've heard is that it's incredibly difficult to grow commercially.
That said, there's a company in Half Moon Bay that's doing it. I can't say
I've tried enough authentic Japanese wasabi to make a reasonable comparison
with the locally grown version, but I can say that both are worlds better than
the green goop you'll find in almost all Japanese restaurants. I know people
who can't handle the spice level of "normal" wasabi but have no problem with
the real stuff - there's more flavor there than just "spicy", although it
still carries a fair amount of heat. The grated version also has both texture
and aromatics that you won't get in wasabi from a tube.

~~~
grogenaut
At $100/lb I think you could probbably do quite well doing it in small batches
at home as a hobby.

------
slantyyz
When I click through, the actual article title is "Is Japan losing its umami?"

I think that's probably the better title to use.

When I clicked through to the posted title "Showing the world how real soy
sauce is supposed to taste", I was fully expecting the article to be about soy
sauce in China, not in Japan.

------
adrianN
This educational programme from Japan shows the whole process
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmUoC10X_A0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmUoC10X_A0)
understanding a little Japanese helps, but is not required.

------
apricot13
theres an anime called moyashimon - tales of agriculture that does a nice job
of teaching you all about the fermented foods mostly japanese but some others
as well. Its not a serious show by any means but it was interesting
nonetheless!

------
Xcelerate
I remember being surprised when I discovered that most truffle oil is not made
from truffles. Real truffle oil (e.g. olive oil infused with actual truffles)
is a bit harder to find.

------
LoSboccacc
funny instead how in the west we come full circle to use yeast to create that
taste, so that the product label can claim 'no glutammate added'

this italian video goes to some length into it, and it has english subs
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-HDL2g4HYk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-HDL2g4HYk)

------
flareback
Now I really want to try some traditionally brewed soy sauce.

------
iambateman
One thing I don’t understand: there is a market for high-end soy sauce,
balsamic vinegar, and olive oil.

Certain people will pay for food sold in the right context. Why is it so
difficult for these producers to find that market?

~~~
Mikeb85
It's not hard at all. That market is high end restaurants. Especially when I
was in fine dining, we'd have farmers, importers and foragers showing up at
the back door all the time with various vegetables, bottles of oils and
vinegars, truffles, vanilla beans, etc... The market for individuals trying to
buy these things is very small, but for restaurants, just look up rankings in
a guide and show up at the top restaurants.

