
Thank HN: 7 months ago, I asked for help. Now I've got 5 employees. - needmoney
7 months ago, I posted asking the community how I could most efficiently make 300-400 US dollars a month, my cost of living, online (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1171520). You guys really poured out good ideas and several of you offered me work.<p>Patio11 was among those: he offered to pay me 400 USD a month, every month, to make a custom Wordpress theme for him. I took him up on it. His offer really helped. The ability to hammer out a Wordpress theme and cover my living costs in a short period of time meant that I could hire out someone else to do the tasks that were taking all of my time to pay for my food and rent. With the new-found free time, I was able to focus on marketing and sales and grow the service I had been doing myself into a larger business. By the time the 2nd Wordpress theme was due, I had run overdue on its deadline because my tiny business had been covered by some major media and I was swamped with just keeping it up and running. Thankfully Patrick was understanding when I turned in the late 2nd project and told him I simply had no more time to design for him due to my personal business's growth.<p>Fast-forward a few months. I now have 5 people working under me (3 full-time, 2 part-time) and my own office. Things are still hard, and I'm not rich, but I'm in a much better place than I was when I first posted. Thank you!
======
jacquesm
It's very nice to see asking for help on HN have a tangible effect in peoples
lives. Another thing I really like about this particular story is that it is
not 'charity' but a helping you to make you stronger so you can help yourself
(and apparently others!).

Really neat. I wished there was more stuff like this on HN.

~~~
cosgroveb
This place is becoming just like Reddit...

In a great way! People helping people. And in a very Hacker News sort-of way,
helping people get a business off the ground! He's the master of his own
destiny now and that's awesome.

~~~
blantonl
_This place is becoming just like Reddit.._

That is a fascinating observation... because interestingly enough the
_business_ of Reddit and Hackernews is focused only on the community itself,
and nothing else.

It almost reminds me of the Zappos story and how they treat their employees.

Make your employees #1 - and you will prosper. Make your community #1 - and
you will prosper.

------
csomar
My life has change (and also my little mind) thanks to Hacker News. I should
say "I read enough, yet a lot", may be more than 500 pages (I already printed
200 or so).

Not only my financial situation changed, but also the way I view the world.
Just 400 days before now, $25 is my monthly money pocket that I get from my
parents and it should cover all my expenses (except clothes, food and
obviously housing).

Now I have my own Internet subscription ($30 a month) and also I just
purchased a VPS and a couple of SaaS service. I did bought my Nokia feature
phone ($150) also myself and this little netbook I'm typing from ($400). That
in 300 days or so, and by the end of this year, I'm planning on buying a Sony
Z series, 23'' monitor and a smartphone.

I have 3 years browsing and reading the Internet, but it's only in the last
year that I started making money out of it (not browsing! the internet). This
wouldn't be done without Hacker News. I should also mention that my English
was revamped considerably and ... okay, lot of things actually.

Thanks HN! You didn't give me money but you did teach me how to make it and
also LIVE happy.

~~~
illumin8
Don't spend all your money on toys... The few hundred dollars you've spent
already, had you invested it in your business, or even put it into savings,
could be worth tens of thousands or even millions a few decades from now.

~~~
csomar
That's something I learnt while working and it really helped me a lot (and
will in my professional life). However, I don't have my own computer (shared
one, except this netbook); so I need a better setup for my development.

I try to prioritize the items I need. An external hard-drive comes first,
because I should have a backup strategy. The monitor is more important,
because I need better display...

Certainly, I'll offer myself an Android as a gift and that also should serve
and help me in business (read emails in the go, check statics, HN on mobile
instead of computer...)

~~~
heresy
If you can learn the power of compound interest at your age, you're going to
retire very comfortably.

~~~
csomar
I read some of the Wikipedia article about it. However, the bank won't give
you 20% yearly, yet barely enough to cover the inflation. Nor the stock market
and real estate do, so I wonder how compound interest would help and in any
way?

~~~
heresy
Sorry, let me clarify.

Let's say you started investing/saving at the age of 18 up until 65, and lets
say the amount you put in per month over that period of time was $800 per
month - this is pretty low, given how much your income should increase over
time.

At a conservative rate of return of 5%, at age 65, it would be worth around
$1.8 million, $1.35 million of that being the compound 5%, and only roughly
$450,000 being what you put in.

Essentially, the earlier you start saving, the bigger your runway, and the
more comfortable you'll be later in life, without having to compromise on your
lifestyle right there and then.

The later you start, the more you have to put in each month to get the same
outcome at the end.

Something I wish my parents had taught me :)

Of course, if you start your own business, and are successful enough, the
numbers look way, way, better. This is essentially just your fallback
position.

~~~
carbocation
5% is not a particularly conservative rate of return.

~~~
zackattack
Hasnt the stock market historically grown at a 10% annual rate

~~~
carbocation
Yes, I agree (~8% over the very long run I think). But it's not timescale
invariant. Look at what it's done over the past 10 years, for example (-1%).
I'm not trying to say that the stock market doesn't grow over time. I'm just
trying to say that if the mean annual growth is truly 8%, it has a really high
variance. Thus, there are some things that I wouldn't count on (say, the
ability to arbitrage from a 3%-interest loan into straight profit, for
example) which I might try to do if the return was _consistently_ 5%. I
suppose that for me, when I think conservative, I think consistent.

~~~
chipsy
The 8% claim is misleading and possibly harmful. Nobody wants returns to be
that "lumpy" - down for 10 years! Who could stand it?

All investments have a certain lifespan on them - with things like bonds and
T-bills, interest payments and maturity are fixed and contractually obligated,
while with equities it's up to company performance. To really do well, you
have to think like a trader and run all investments over a specific timeframe
with predetermined exit signals for profit, loss, or trend changes.

It may look as if Warren Buffett lets money sit in the market. But he is
actually running trades over decades of time. He has to - he literally has too
much money to make useful(percentage-wise) profit in smaller time frames.

~~~
carbocation
I agree that the 8% number is, at once, misleading, harmful, and true! True
because it is a simple observation, but misleading because people behave as
though the future recapitulates the past, of which there is no guarantee.

I think that the "misleading and harmful" part is more important--which was
the crux of my original comment about the lack of consistency.

------
eof
Awesome. What is your business?

~~~
needmoney
Well, I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint you all and tell you I run a bakery.
I know you guys were expecting a tech company.

I wasn't actually planning on revealing this, but you guys seem to really want
to know and the community has been good to me. And maybe you can give me more
advice.

I actually have a degree in CS and I love to code, but I tried for a while and
never managed to make money on my own with my tech skills before Patrick. I
figured (correctly, I think) that my problem was not with my hacking abilities
but with my business skills - I had absolutely no good sense of what people
would give me money for.

In my mind, I saw myself stumbling around on a seemingly infinite plane while
I was trying to follow a hill-climbing algorithm to maximize the amount of
money I was making. So I imagined something like a random-restart approach
might work: let's jump somewhere totally different and try climbing any hills
we find there. Plus, I knew that people were willing to give money for baked
goods, so I figured that simplified the business component to an extent.

It turns out I was right - I did find a hill to climb and I've gotten a lot
better at business in general.

The dilemma now is I really enjoy coding and actually think I have the skills
to run a softare business (which could ultimately be more lucrative), but have
a growing food business on my hands. I'm certainly not complaining - really,
anything that brings me more money to buy stuff like a dryer makes me happy -
but sometimes I feel out of place.

Now that I've hired a manager for the bakery, I have a bit more control of my
time and I've recently been able to take on a bit of consulting work, which
has turned out well, and I'm pumping the money into growing the bakery.

I think that's the optimal strategy I can follow for now. What do you guys
think? I look forward to hearing your thoughts on my relatively twisted path.

~~~
NathanKP
Not exactly what I was expecting, but interesting nonetheless. Do you feel
that the hacker business approach articles featured here helped your bakery
succeed, or did they just give you impetus you needed to get started launching
your own business? Just wondering.

Edit: Why not build a web app for your bakery? Allow customers to order via
the web. If you provide some sort of customization so that customers can
request custom cakes and confections it could turn into an interesting
internet aided brick and mortar business. Whatever you do don't downplay the
value of having a business that makes real money selling real things.

~~~
aik
That's a great idea.

I just discovered an innovative little app from Domino's Pizza here in Sydney:
Firstly I was able to order the entire pizza online in a very intuitive
interface (with a few issues), and then pay for it online. Once paid, a
ticking clock appeared that showed the exact time that they received the
order, started on the pizza, baked it, and when it was complete and ready for
pickup. While waiting, in the same window they did a good job of trying to
offer entertainment by showing movie trailers (not my cup of tea but well
implemented).

Stuff like this makes a difference.

~~~
whatusername
Have you seen this? [http://lifehacker.com/388708/track-your-dominos-pizza-
order-...](http://lifehacker.com/388708/track-your-dominos-pizza-order-from-a-
terminal) Not sure if it works for Aus Dominos - but it might.

------
mhartl
_I took him up on it._

This alone is a hugely valuable lesson. When you _need_ help, and someone
_offers_ help, _accept the help_. (Of course, you had already learned the
first lesson: When you need help, _ask for help_.)

------
justlearning
would you be willing to divulge details on your app/business and country you
reside in? Does this income sustain your family?

$300-400 usd seems very little to get by. At the time of your posting, it
seemed like a "student" in need of the cash.

It's pay back time - your experiences,lessons learnt will be appreciated.

~~~
ynniv
$400 USD is quite prosperous in many parts of the world. Not in the US, or the
wealthier nations.

~~~
raheemm
Really? Like where? Not being sarcastic but even in a cheap place like
Bangladesh, you need atleast $700/month to have a decent hacker life (constant
electricity, decent internet, own apt, a hacker-friendly environment - coffee,
music, hobby, junk food, etc).

~~~
solutionyogi
You need 700$/month to have a decent hacker life in Banagladesh? Wow.

I am originally from a second tier city called Surat in India. I think I can
have a very comfortable life in 400$. Here's the breakdown (all costs in
Indian Rupees):

Monthly Rent for 1 Bedroom: Approx 4000

Internet: 2,000 (Not the fastest but hey, we are not hosting servers from the
bedroom)

Food: 1,500 (50 Rupees per day (eating out) for 30 days)

Others (Gas (Petrol)/Clothes/Entertainment/Electricity etc.): 3,500 (A rough
estimate)

Total: 11,000 INR, approx 250 USD, I am still left over with 150$.

~~~
sundarurfriend
How do you eat out and still spend only 50 rupees on food? Here in Bangalore
I'd be hard pressed to keep it under 100, and it usually reaches near 150
rupees.

~~~
solutionyogi
I am talking about Surat (my hometown) and not Bangalore. Also, I am assuming
that you would not eat at a high end restaurant. Heck, I was in Mangalore for
a year and I think I can eat out every day for 50 bucks a day which will
include breakfast/lunch/dinner.

------
tlack
What a great story. You should put together a "five things I learned" mini
post and let us all read it. And tell us more about your biz - do you sell
through ThemeForest?

------
Revisor
What did you learn in the process? What would you tell your older self?

~~~
needmoney
I feel silly answering this because there are much more qualified people here
to give advice, but I'll answer because you asked and because it's also useful
for me to reflect. I hadn't really done it.

In random order:

Employees watch what you do very carefully. Their behavior is strongly
influenced by yours.

Having several conservative ways to make small amounts of money if necessary
is good.

Emotional stability is an important skill. The ability to dampen both optimism
and anxiety is something that comes with experience, I think. Multiple backup
plans help with the latter.

It is relatively easy to siphon off pieces of business when the market is
large. Profitable competition tells me that I can probably find buyers, so
long as I can think of a twist.

Being a generally friendly, helpful person, even to people who you think have
nothing to offer you in return, is good for business. I'm a much friendlier
person now than I was when I started. I've also found being friendly and
helpful just makes me happy.

------
kloncks
I'd love to hear more details too, especially the name of the country you live
in.

One of the beautiful thing about the Internet is how it allows you to set up
nice lifestyle businesses. If I have a successful application (I'm 20), I
could easily travel around the world working wherever there is an Internet
connection and just getting by nicely. At least for a few years!

------
matthewhelt
its stories like this which have been very encouraging in my own venture.

a comment on the cost of living in the united states, and how to do it
cheaply. i live in oakland, california - in the heart of the san francisco bay
area. my cost of living is incredibly low, my rent is $300, utilities are
about $90 a month and that includes power and 1MB network connection. i ride a
bike everywhere i go, don't own a car. i cook all my own food, i purchase
organic produce for cheap at the local farmers market.

my entire monthly living expenses are less than 500 dollars, in a location
where i can get to financial district of san francisco in about 14 minutes.

my business venture is based in my bedroom, my tech co-founder lives in
mendocino county. we're currently in product development phase creating an
analytical system for precision viticulture. we're getting ready to start our
first adventures in funding.

reading stories about people buckling down, focusing on their ventures, and
achieving success has (for lack of a better term) inspired me. hacker news and
the whole entrepreneurial community in the bay area have been key to informing
my decisions.

------
bmelton
Congratulations -- but uhm... shouldn't you check back in with Patrick and
make sure his needs are met? I mean, he's Customer #1, and it sounds like your
reaction to that was to abandon him.

I might be misreading, or Patrick may have backfilled you, but the 1 thing I
know about business to be more true than most things, is you take care of your
early customers, specifically if they were good to you.

~~~
tptacek
Evolving relationships are a fact of life in consulting. Sometimes
relationships grow, or even engulf the whole business, like Lucky Strike did
for SCDP in Mad Men and Microsoft has done with a number of security
consultancies. Other times, relationships become vestigial or vanish entirely.

The entire point of consulting arrangements is to allow businesses to set the
most flexible and reasonable terms to work under. If Patrick wanted a
Wordpress theme factory forever, he could have made that a contract term.
Somehow, I doubt he did.

Matasano engaged Patrick. We may be one of his earliest clients! Somehow, I
doubt he'll be as available for tactical one-off projects for much longer.
That makes me happy.

~~~
patio11
Matasano was client #2, and I just wrapped up at #3 (y'all know them, but they
have a blog post due in November so I'll let them announce it). Suffice it to
say "You have ample reason to be happy."

------
messel
I can't compete with surviving at $400 a month. That alone is amazing. The
fact that you built a business is inspiring. Thanks for sharing your tale
needmoney.

As others have mentioned, we'd like to know what your business is. Is it web
based? Are you manufacturing widgets? Share the details :D

~~~
needmoney
I live in a developing country, share an apartment, and am relatively frugal.
I do however spend money on things that save me significant amounts of time.

------
aeden
Good on ya for 1.) asking and 2.) executing. Most people don't even get to
item 1.

~~~
AlexMuir
and 3.) thanking others for their help.

------
jseliger
A quick question: do you have a site for your work? I ask because I've been
using a pretty bogus, standard theme for my hosted Wordpress blog
(<http://blog.seliger.com>) and could probably swing $400 for a real theme.

~~~
messel
Business number 2 for needmoney, building the Theme Factory.

I can't decide if I want to customize themes or hire a designer. I've tweaked
my own theme a dozen times this year.

~~~
brc
My rule is : if you think you might need a designer, you need a designer.

My life (and work) has been infinitely better since I let go and paid good
money to good designers to do good work. Find one, build a relationship and
trust and then trust their judgement.

~~~
jseliger
_My rule is : if you think you might need a designer, you need a designer._

That's basically my thought process.

------
johngalt
Always great to hear another success story. Not only have you managed to help
yourself, but those five people now have a better circumstance as well. Good
job, keep it up.

------
Jasitis
how do i start doing this

~~~
barnaby
Guys don't downvote somebody on their FIRST POST on HN. This guy may
legitimately want to know how to do this, that's one hell of a good reason to
be on HN.

Jastis, to answer your question, you do it one step at a time, because if you
try to do too many things (or too big of a thing) at once then nothing gets
done. Bite off one small thing a day and you'll be amazed how much gets done
in half a year.

~~~
Hexstream
Hum. Do you always check a user's profile before downvoting if you don't
remember seeing him before? I can't imagine myself doing that.

Or are you using some sort of plugin that gives you more info inline?

~~~
barnaby
I wish I had a tool like that. No I just had an intuition to check this time.
I've probably been guilty of downvoting newbies myself without checking.

------
mynameisraj
Great to hear! I'm also curious as to what your business is.

Congrats on getting to a better place; hopefully you can go further and expand
more!

------
endtime
Wow - amazing the impact a single extra man-month had on your business.
Congrats!

------
pacomerh
Nice!, that's very inspiring, specially for the fact that you weren't afraid
of asking for help. Lately I've been putting my pride aside and have been
asking my friends, family and people I know about my services, and they don't
necessarily give me work, but they link me to other people who need it. My
whole point is that being open is really crucial, at first I didn't want to
look as they friend who needed work really, but know I'm asking friends to
help me with some projects (web production btw).

It would be nice to read about your whole experience though. Thx

------
ritonlajoie
What a very refreshing story ! Thanks for sharing. I wan't on HN when this
happened but I read all the 1171520 thread and spent almost 2 hours on
different discussions that your thread is spawning, related to ebook sales,
wordpress theming, etc..

I think the majority of HN readers are just like you : interested in what
_we_, as 'hackers', can do. Related to 'change the world', or 'make money'.
The thing is to combine both. You seem to be pretty well. Bravo and keep up
the good work !

------
plainOldText
Great story, but I hope people won't get inspired by this in the direction to
start submitting their request for help for non-sense/non-relevant aspects to
the HN Community.

------
ww520
That's awesome. Congratulation.

Can you talk about your marketing and sales effort? It's always difficult for
technical folks.

~~~
needmoney
It really varies depending on your industry.

Generally, being a social person (which does not come easily to me at all) is
very helpful. If you have a lot of friends, it's very likely one of them will
be able to help you market or sell in some way or another. I relied heavily on
friends and friends of friends. I still do.

More specifically, figuring out who are major journalists or trend-influencers
(potential customers who can convince their friends to become customers)
within your target market and then befriending them is very useful.

~~~
melipone
You're only telling us general trivia. If you've done a wordpress theme, post
a tutorial or a how-to.

~~~
needmoney
I run a bakery, so I found members of the media I wanted to get along with,
got to know them, and gave them free samples of my products. Many of them are
now customers and friends.

I imagine a similar process would work for online-only businesses.

------
david_shaw
This is an inspirational story. Congrats, sounds like you're well on your way
to exactly where you want to be!

------
vishaldpatel
Hey man! Congrats!!! =)... Success stories are among the best type of stories
:)

------
EGF
This is really great to hear! The community here has really been great to me
as well and the thoughtfulness and quality of answers is really remarkable.

Awesome that the business is a bakery too!

------
laran
So glad to hear a success story. Keep it up, and keep on building!

------
mobl
Hi there. Great story, I can get you some work too for themes and other stuff
related to video games. jimmy@inodesoft.com

Keep having a very bright and sucessful day!

:-)

------
sleight42
In all seriousness, good for you! And even better, you are probably similarly
helping those 5 other people in your employ.

------
EGreg
These kinds of stories are definitely cool to hear :)

Maybe you can tell us more about what you did right, and what your business
does!

------
AlexBlom
Honestly, well done for getting out there and making something happen.

------
jackfoxy
...and you're providing employment, the highest form of charity.

------
nicholaides
Hey, that's great news!

