
Show HN: I invented a caffeinated toothpaste - nappy
https://www.powertoothpaste.com/
======
nappy
I invented the world’s first caffeinated toothpaste - get a rush while you
brush! I’m a serial entrepreneur, YCW16. Though it is a simple idea, I went
through at least 60 formula iterations before I got the flavor chemistry
right. This toothpaste seriously works. I actually had to _lower_ the caffeine
content from the original version.

Our toothpaste gives you a quick caffeine boost that works as soon as you
start brushing, even faster than coffee. (I still drink coffee, just later in
the morning)

I made version 1 with a hammer in my kitchen. I smashed a caffeine pill into
dust in my cast iron pan, mixed it with toothpaste from my bathroom, and I had
the first-ever caffeinated toothpaste. It worked. It was a little buggy. Since
that point we have raised over $40k on Indiegogo and we’ve shipped over 2,000
tubes of toothpaste so far, all made in the made in the USA. I would love to
answer any questions you might have or share any knowledge I’ve gained about
plastic/tube packaging, cosmetics regulations, logistics, fulfillment,
domestic manufacturing, and shipping physical products in general. I’m not an
expert, but I’ve learned a lot. If you want to try Power Toothpaste, I live in
the Bay Area, and I’d be happy to meet up and give you a squeeze of my
toothpaste.

Cheers, Ian

~~~
DiabloD3
Your website does not contain a list of ingredients, nor do you show photos of
your box with government required disclosures on it.

You admit that your toothpaste does not have fluoride, but does it contain
SLS, propylene glycol, DEA, glycerin, hydrated silica, or artificial
sweeteners? If so, please discontinue your product or change your formula.
None of those ingredients are safe for use in toothpaste and help cause tooth
damage and decay.

~~~
Bartweiss
With the comments about "fighting plaque like leading brands", I'm actually
curious whether this is legal. I believe the active ingredients disclosure box
is mandatory, although possibly it's on the face of the box we can't see.

I see that the toothpaste is legal (white-labelled from an approved factory),
so this is just a labelling question.

~~~
yuvipanda
From a comment[1] elsewhere in thread, looks like they removed fluoride to
avoid higher FDA scrutiny. Not sure what that means for labeling.

[1]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12507965](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12507965)

~~~
Bartweiss
That may well be the only 'active' ingredient in some toothpastes, since the
rest is mostly just a scrubbing aid.

------
BorgHunter
> Power Toothpaste does not contain Fluoride. We know many of you don't want
> fluoride in your toothpaste.

This seems bizarre to me. People don't want fluoride in their toothpaste? Why
not? Dentists seem pretty unanimous that everyone should brush twice a day
with fluoride toothpaste.

~~~
nappy
I wrote a longer comment about this below, but the essential reason is: if I
made fluoride a product requirement, I wouldn't have gotten to a release. It
would have added a huge expense.

Additionally, fluoride is much more important for children. As enamel is
forming, fluoride interacts with it and strengthens it. Adults need far less
(threshold dose effect) and for most people in the United States, they likely
get enough in the water. I also figure this is a toothpaste you'll use in the
morning, and another fluoridated one in the evening. You can also use a
fluoridated mouthwash.

At some point, I would love to introduce a fluoridated version.

~~~
BorgHunter
This is fair. I do think this should be a bit more prominent, though, because
when I hear "toothpaste", I tend to _assume_ it is fluoridated. Unfluoridated
toothpaste is unusual enough that it should probably be called out right on
the front of the box/tube, whereas right now it's kind of buried in a FAQ.

Good job getting this off the ground, and best of luck with it.

~~~
nappy
Much appreciated! Based on this comment and others from HN, I think I'm going
to add a whole section for Formulation/Ingredients, show the full label, talk
about the process etc. Thank you again!

------
DanBC
>The world’s first caffeinated toothpaste

I mean, it's not the first, is it?

Here's a kid who had the same idea last year:
[http://www.chicagotribune.com/bluesky/originals/ct-teen-
entr...](http://www.chicagotribune.com/bluesky/originals/ct-teen-
entrepreneurs-in-school-bsi-20150826-story.html)

Here's one from 2008:
[http://buzztoothpaste.blogspot.co.uk/](http://buzztoothpaste.blogspot.co.uk/)

~~~
rjbwork
I just tried to find a way to buy another caffeinated toothpaste. I see
nothing, though i didn't dig too deep. Seems like it might be the first
intended for mass marketing/consumption.

------
cokernel
It appears that there is a patent (filed 2002, published 2003) on "blended
toothpaste formulas and method for manufacture", claiming in part "A
toothpaste as defined in claim 1 wherein the stimulant is caffeine".

[https://www.google.com/patents/US20030147817](https://www.google.com/patents/US20030147817)

I don't know how to read patents, so I don't know if this is a relevant patent
or not.

~~~
pziddy
That's an application. Hasn't been granted yet-- and it's been a while.

IANAL.

~~~
cokernel
Thanks. I'm guessing that "Publication type: Application" in the header is the
clue I should have noticed.

------
koliber
Caffeinated toothpaste is so 2016 Q2. I heard there's a stealth startup doing
caffeinated toilet paper that will disrupt this market by hitting the customer
with a dose of caffeine earlier on in the morning pipeline.

~~~
mikekchar
Sorry man, I'm old. I need the caffeine in order to need the toilet paper, not
the other way around ;-)

~~~
meric
Brush with the caffeinated toothpaste, get a boost with the caffeinated toilet
paper.

~~~
freehunter
Gotta re-up.

------
WheelsAtLarge
Is this for real? I understand people want their caffeine hit but toothpaste
seem a bit overboard.

If you can't live without it, why not just buy the pills and take a pill each
day. [https://www.amazon.com/Natrol-Caffeine-200mg-
Tablets-100-Cou...](https://www.amazon.com/Natrol-Caffeine-200mg-
Tablets-100-Count/dp/B000OPV118/)

Careful, caffeine can be fatal. I'm surprised it's not regulated.

~~~
efa
Yeah, this is bizarre to me. Kind of like adding an mp3 player to a word
processor. Toothpaste has a purpose. If you want caffeine have coffee, tea,
Red Bull, 5 hour energy, Monster, expresso beans, caffeine gum, or one of the
million other ways to get caffeine.

~~~
freehunter
Subtract one thing from your list.

"Why do you need caffeine gum? If you want caffeine have coffee, tea, Red
Bull, 5 hour energy, Monster, expresso beans, or one of the million other ways
to get caffeine."

"Why do you need Red Bull? If you want caffeine have coffee, tea, 5 hour
energy, Monster, expresso beans, or one of the million other ways to get
caffeine."

"Why do you need tea? If you want caffeine have coffee, 5 hour energy,
Monster, expresso beans, or one of the million other ways to get caffeine."

"Why do you need coffee? If you want caffeine have 5 hour energy, Monster,
expresso beans, or one of the million other ways to get caffeine."

So on and so forth. Why do you need one more way to get caffeine in your
system? Why not?

------
c0nsumer
What flavor is your toothpaste? Outside of "Wake up with minty fresh,
mentholated breath" there's no flavor specifics mentioned that I could find.

So, is the flavor mint-menthol? Which kind of mint?

(I personally, somewhat dislike peppermint, really dislike spearmint, but
really like fennel toothpaste.)

Also, what's the expected amount of caffeine per typical dispensing? How much
of that are you figuring gets absorbed during brushing?

~~~
gthtjtkt
> Also, what's the expected amount of caffeine per typical dispensing? How
> much of that are you figuring gets absorbed during brushing?

Wondering the same thing.

He said in another comment that an average-sized 'serving' of the toothpaste
contains 80mg of caffeine (roughly half the amount of a small coffee from most
chains), but there's no info on how much of that is absorbed when brushing.

------
nikolay
There's no list of ingredients. Anyway, most toothpaste today has glycerin in
it, which prevents tooth remineralization. Most toothpaste today also has
carrageenan, which also is questionable - including by the WHO. SLS is not
without issues either. Most non-natural toothpaste has aluminum. Most natural
toothpaste is too abrasive. In general, I wasn't able to find a balanced
product all these years - and it's a shame!

~~~
nappy
Point very well taken! Thank you for this!! I'm going to update our page with
a high quality image of the back of our label with full list of ingredients.

Apologies for this omission that in retrospect is so obvious!

~~~
nikolay
People are too picky today, you know...

------
DonHopkins
How about some alcohol or THC toothpaste to wind down at the end of the day,
too? ;)

~~~
lake99
Yeah, brushing teeth at night, with some caffeine may not be a bright idea.

------
jondubois
"... We made Power Toothpaste so that when you wake up, you can make your
dreams a reality" \- This text is placed right next to a blurry photo of the
founders.

It's very 90s... Cheesy. Our generation is far too cynical for that kind of
message.

This toothpaste won't make your dreams come true. If anything, it will keep
you up all night long and prevent you from dreaming altogether.

I do like the tagline "Get a rush while you brush." though.

------
di
So, if I want to be able to sleep at night, I now need to buy two types of
toothpaste?

Folks feeling groggy in the morning should try cutting caffeine _out_ of their
diet, not applying it directly to their gums.

~~~
logfromblammo
If I feel groggy in the morning, I'm also going to stick with the proven
solution of going to bed at a more reasonable time the previous evening. But
di and I are in the minority on this, I think. There is definitely a market
for people who want to get higher, faster, when the double-shot of espresso
doesn't quite do the trick any more, and when crushing up a caffeine pill in a
coffee grinder before consuming the raw powder is still a bit too much.

So cheers to all you stimulant addicts out there for your new market option.
You no longer need to ask a compounding pharmacist to do this sort of thing
for you--unless, of course, there are other over-the-counter drugs you might
want to take every morning, in imprecisely measured doses.

------
mattacurtis
Not sure how you missed out on the opportunity to name it "ToothRush".

------
wodenokoto
> We know many of you don't want fluoride in your toothpaste.

what? is this some new anti-vac kind of thing? In Denmark dentists are
strongly advising against using toothpaste without fluoride.

Lena Bay of the Danish dentist school says about toothpaste without fluoride:
"... if you insist on using it, then you should only use it once a day and use
normal toothpaste with fluoride the rest of the time" and Ole Marker, vice
president of the Danish Dental Association says that "There is a large risk of
ruining your teeth [if you only use toothpaste without fluoride]"

source [in danish]
[http://politiken.dk/forbrugogliv/livsstil/familieliv/ECE8329...](http://politiken.dk/forbrugogliv/livsstil/familieliv/ECE832967/oekologisk-
tandpasta-kan-give-huller/)

------
eykanal
I'm having a tough time figuring out whether this is a joke. Who's the target
audience? What need are you filling? How are people meeting this need now?

~~~
Splendor
I was pretty sure it was real until I saw the Pied Piper logo. Now I'm not
sure.

------
Johnny555
Do you have warnings on the tube to tell people that the toothpaste is toxic
to children?

80 mg of caffeine at 90 "servings" per tube is 7200mg.

The LD50 for caffeine is 150mg/kg, so each tube is enough to potentially kill
two 20kb toddlers.

~~~
kbart
_" two 20kb toddlers."_

Is that a mistype or do you really measure babies in kilobits?

~~~
Johnny555
That's kilobabies

------
antoineMoPa
Brushing before breakfast seems like a weird idea to me. The mint flavor of
the toothpaste would ruin the flavor of what I'd eat and I would need to brush
again after.

Did all of HN stop eating breakfast after this post?
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11753668](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11753668)

~~~
gmac
I believe it's generally the soapy toothpaste ingredients (sodium lauryl
sulfate) that mess with your mouth chemistry and make things taste weird for a
while afterwards, not mainly the mint flavour. Other kinds of toothpaste (e.g.
I sometimes use an aloe vera based one) don't have this problem.

And my understanding of the before vs after breakfast teeth-brushing debate is
that it doesn't that much matter which you do: do it before, and you clear off
the bacteria that have accumulated overnight before handing them a load of
food to work on; do it after, and your teeth are cleaner for the next few
hours instead.

~~~
alfon
So before and after?

------
0xmohit
Too bad that there isn't option bigger than the family pack. I'd have honestly
loved to give my entire city the _power_, but looks like I need to wait.

\--

Nice site. You have only 7 trackers at the moment.

------
Brainix
Can't you see? You're not making toothpaste better. You're making coffee
worse.

------
kendallpark
> Beats plaque and tartar buildup like the leading brands

It's important to note that it's the actual brushing of teeth that does the
heavy lifting. Toothpaste is pretty inconsequential.

------
a_lifters_life
As an avid tooth brusher and caffeine addict I'm struggling to understand why
I would want this? Can you elaborate

------
WheelsAtLarge
Here's a book on caffeine. Interesting light read, if you have any interest on
the subject. [https://www.amazon.com/Caffeinated-Daily-Habit-Helps-
Hurts/d...](https://www.amazon.com/Caffeinated-Daily-Habit-Helps-
Hurts/dp/1594631387)

------
bkanber
How many milligrams of caffeine per pea-sized serving is there? People who
really like caffeine also really want to know how much they're getting.
"Medium" cup of coffee could be anywhere from like 30mg to 80mg.

------
carlob
The price comparison is a bit disingenuous IMHO: coffee is $3 only if you buy
a latte at Starbucks. Homemade coffee is probably less than a tenth of that
even if you use capsules, and a filter coffee can be as cheap as $1.

You can also buy 20 g of caffeine in pills on amazon for around $8 compared to
your 7.2 g for $15.

Why would you compare with something that is effectively the cost of sitting
down for half an hour in a clean warm place with toilets and internet? (I'm
assuming the cost of actual coffee at starbucks is negligible)

~~~
robzyb
> I'm assuming the cost of actual coffee at starbucks is negligible

And yet takeaway coffee costs me the same price whether its at Starbucks or
just a hole-in-the-wall that only do take-away.

~~~
carlob
Let's disrupt holes in the wall! :)

------
andrewl
I can't help thinking of Fry's first morning in the year 3000.

Fry: I'm never gonna get used to the 31st century. Caffeinated bacon?
Baconated grapefruit? _Admiral_ Crunch?

But I'll probably try it.

~~~
drivingmenuts
I've always wondered what Bachelor Chow tastes like.

Probably chicken.

And disappointment.

------
et2o
Sorry to be negative: Introducing a vasoconstrictor to be used everyday
topically in the mouth around the gingiva is probably an irresponsible idea. I
think you need to do longitudinal animal studies before you can sell this in
good conscience.

~~~
nappy
The U.S. military has studied the use of caffeinated gum (which has a higher
concentration of caffeine and stays in your mouth much longer) and has not
seen negative health impacts. I'll upload the studies I have collected to
dropbox and post a link later today! Otherwise, I've spoken to a ton of
dentists about this and they weren't concerned about caffeine's impact on the
gingae.

~~~
jdcarter
My first thought was, why this vs. caffeinated gum? I've used the gum for
years (look up "military energy gum") and it's perfect. But I don't want it
every time I brush. Brushing teeth and wanting a pick-me-up seem like totally
orthogonal needs.

Pro tip: keep a pack of caffeinated gum in your car. Great for road trips or
late nights!

~~~
gthtjtkt
> Brushing teeth and wanting a pick-me-up seem like totally orthogonal needs.

You don't brush your teeth shortly after waking up every morning?

~~~
2muchcoffeeman
I also brush before I go to bed. I would need 2 pastes and be careful not to
mix them up. I've accidentally put hand soap and moisturiser on my toothbrush
before because I was so sleepy.

------
huangc10
I have to be honest, this is a cool idea but after reading some of the
comments, it makes sense that more information and health topics/concerns need
to be addressed. Although overall, I would much rather just have a cup of
coffee (I'm a coffee lover).

Maybe market to an industry where it is necessary for someone to be
caffeinated right away after waking up (think time sensitive, life / death)
and health concerns are more gray area (ie. maybe soldiers can use this during
war time). edit, spacing...

~~~
nappy
I love coffee too. Most of the people who have been buying Power Toothpaste
and who enjoy coffee have been reporting that they still have their coffee,
but tend to do so later in the morning.

------
roti
Since drinking coffee is also a main cause of teeth-yellowing; if this
substitutes coffee, then it could also be seen as another way of helping to
keep teeth whiter?

------
robertcorey
People insist of ingesting caffeine in wildly fluctuating dosages.If you're
going to use caffeine, treat it like any other drug and take exacts doses.

------
iregina
Hi Ian, cool product! What was it like dealing with cosmetic regulations? And
why is toothpaste under cosmetic regulations, rather than healthcare?

~~~
nappy
Thank you! The FDA was created under the Food, Drugs, and Cosmetics Act.
According to the law, everything they regulate falls into one of these
categories. Sort of an animal/vegetable/mineral thing. Interestingly,
toothpaste with fluoride is regulated as a drug, and without fluoride as a
cosmetic. Not necessarily a big deal to be regulated as a drug... But as I dug
into the regulations, I found it is actually still quite difficult to go
through all the hurdles to bring a new fluoridated toothpaste to market.
Comparatively, a new fluoridated mouthwash is really easy, just basic
stability testing. I actually had to submit a Freedom of Information Act
request to get a copy of the testing procedures. They were really something.
The document I got back was a scanned pdf of a copy of a mimeograph of a
typewriter carbon copy. And the testing quite onerous. They actually required
animal testing for any new formulation! Pretty crazy given the well understood
process of fluoridating toothpaste. So to get a product release, I'm forgoing
fluoride in this version that lets me be a cosmetic. The regulations here are
much simpler. There's testing, clean room requirements, ingredient safety
stuff, but comparatively much easier, and I partnered with a manufacturer with
lots of experience that's here in the United States.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Wow, just wow. This seems like one of those regulations that could be changed.
Obviously the caffeine isn't a flagged substance: It would seem that a simple
chemical composition test would be good enough to qualify a toothpaste - since
we've done a lot of research on fluoride itself.

------
ravenstine
I go back and forth on the whole fluoridation issue. I personally think that a
proper diet negates any reason to us fluoride, and ingesting it intuitively
seems like a bad idea. Not sure if that's rational. But that's why I buy
toothpaste containing Novamin rather than fluoride. (strangely, you can only
buy it from overseas and they pulled it off the shelves in the US)

------
matthewmorgan
Sorry, immediately after waking up is not the best time to take caffeine:
[http://b-i.forbesimg.com/anthonykosner/files/2014/01/besttim...](http://b-i.forbesimg.com/anthonykosner/files/2014/01/besttime4coffee2-i3coffee-
jp.jpg)

------
overcast
So at night before bed, I need to use a non-caffeinated version? Now I have
different tubes, depending on the time of day.

~~~
sidegrid
Is that a problem?

~~~
overcast
Yes, I don't need time sensitive toothpaste.

~~~
hundchenkatze
Then this isn't the toothpaste for you.

------
koliber
Please please please do a nicotine toothpaste! I want to get my ciggy in as
soon as I step out of bed.

~~~
cjg
How about an MDMA one too?

~~~
koliber
There are just so many directions in which to pivot!

------
RIMR
I also brush my teeth before I go to bed, so this would just be a huge mistake
waiting to happen...

------
Down_n_Out
Interesting, internationally available by any chance? As in, do you ship to
Europe?

~~~
nappy
could you send me an email at ian@powertoothpaste.com ?We're working out
international shipping. If you give me your details, I'm trying to get (most
of) it figured out in the next few days.

~~~
Down_n_Out
Hi, thanks, I will send out an email shortly!

------
GFK_of_xmaspast
I thought the last tech bubble also brought us caffeinated toothpaste.

------
corndoge
I like to snort lines of caffeine off my vanity in the morning; can anyone
else with this habit who has tried Power Toothpaste comment on whether it's
worth the switch?

------
ben_jones
Caffeinated gum is also a big thing. Same idea I think: passive caffeine
consumption with the implication that you'll be saving tons of money that
would've been spent in coffee shops. But don't most people want to limit their
caffeine consumption?

I feel like caffeine has an identical mindshare as cigarettes in the '60s:
Haha we know it's not great for you but everybody does it, especially business
people!'.

Not trying to nock your product, it's just whatever I think of when people try
to push more caffeine on me. I need more sleep, not more caffeine.

~~~
jimmytidey
I don't think caffeine has many negative health implications. Although it has
certainly wasted my time by leaving me too jittery to work.

There is a great cgp grey video on caffeine:

[http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OTVE5iPMKLg](http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OTVE5iPMKLg)

------
xyzzy123
LD50 is 75–100 cups of coffee for a 70 kilogram adult... so eating a tube of
this can be fatal for adults.

Don't leave this where children can find it.

~~~
undersuit
If you are afraid of your children eating dangerous amounts of something from
a tube, look no further than normal toothpaste.

~~~
xyzzy123
I believe this statement is short-sighted, and I would strongly recommend
child-proof packaging for this product.

If a child eats a tube of toothpaste, it's not great for them[1], but eating a
significant amount of caffeinated toothpaste would most likely kill them.

This is a problem because people don't normally store and secure toothpaste
the way they do bleach or pesticides, and also because this product is
formulated to have an interesting and attractive taste - i.e, it presents a
kind of "attractive nuisance".

Ref [1]
[http://www.poison.org/articles/2015-dec/toothpaste](http://www.poison.org/articles/2015-dec/toothpaste)

"It is unlikely for a child to have anything beyond short-term stomach upset
from eating toothpaste. In rare cases, if an excessive amount of fluorinated
toothpaste is swallowed, there can be more serious problems. Fluoride can
lower the amount of calcium and magnesium in the body. Toothpaste formulated
to help with sensitivity contains a second ingredient – a nitrate – that can
also cause more serious problems if large amounts are ingested. This is
unlikely to occur from unintentional ingestions by children, especially of
over-the-counter toothpaste."

~~~
undersuit
>I believe this statement is short-sighted

I'm not saying this caffeine toothpaste is safer than fluoride containing
toothpaste just that toothpaste can still cause harm. From what I've read of
caffeine overdoses your suggestion of a child-proof packaging is a very good
one.

A tube of toothpaste might have enough fluoride to kill 30-50 mice, but not
necessarily a child. Eating a whole tube of toothpaste is excessive and you
should probably seek medical attention if your child does so. The adults who
took part in this study[1] should be able to replicate the experiments by
eating two tubes of toothpaste.

[1] [https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-
bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@te...](https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-
bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+1766)

~~~
xyzzy123
I hear you, toothpaste is not zero harm.

I'm just saying it's not an airy-fairy concern that this would be lethal,
partly because of the sociology of toothpaste, and also because eating a tube
surpasses the documented LD50 for adults.

Think of the warnings on acetominophen and then think this one through.

------
xhrpost
Soap, peanut butter, now toothpaste. 1 and 2 actually make similar sense in
regards to a morning routine without coffee. But PB, no idea.

------
ommunist
Hm, that's a steal of my invention of cocainated toothpaste, which I decided
not to push on market for ethical reasons.

------
fabiandesimone
How do I get in touch with you? Can't find an email in your profile.

------
methyl
What's the equivalent pure caffeine dosage per 2 minutes of brushing?

------
tsao
I'll wait for a competing product that has flour in it.

------
sidegrid
Nappy, will you ship to Canada in the foreseeable future?

------
retox
Missed a trick with 'Power Paste' I think.

------
eps
Erm... what was there to actually _invent_?

~~~
friendlygrammar
putting two things together to create a new thing is an invention believe it
or not

~~~
jasonkostempski
You got toothpaste in my coffee! You got coffee in my toothpaste! What!?
_barf_

------
Kenji
Will this be available in Europe??

------
maxblackwood
Why?

------
altern8
I like the idea, and the logo (not the video, though).

The problem with your product IMHO is that you need two toothpaste, because
besides in the morning you also brush your teeth before going to bed, but you
definitely don't want caffeine before you go to bed.

------
shiggerino
Didn't Futurama already do this, or something close to it?

~~~
cokernel
Futurama had caffeinated bacon and baconated grapefruit.

------
woolinsilver
Only available in the US.

95% of people do not live in the US. I do not live in the US. No-one I know
lives in the US.

~~~
allemagne
I can imagine plenty of valid reasons for not being able to ship a brand new
product outside of the US. The author didn't promise anyone that at least 6%
or more of the global population could immediately order this product or
anything.

In any case, most of HN probably lives in the US.

~~~
OJFord

        > In any case, most of HN probably lives in the US.
    

I agree with your main point, it's not up to us where someone sells their
product, but I'm not at all sure that most HN users live in the US; I don't
have any more evidence than you, I would just assume most are outside.

