
How to Choose the Right Coding Bootcamp - ingve
https://medium.com/learning-new-stuff/how-to-choose-the-right-coding-bootcamp-364efd35a63c
======
noxToken
No matter how many articles I read on the praise of bootcamps, none have been
able to completely sway my opinion: I don't have to have a CS degree to be a
good developer, but there are certain CS fundamentals lacking from bootcamps
that are an investment in your future.

The issue, like another commenter mentioned, is that bootcamps are too much
like for-profit colleges. Focusing on required skills only, much like a trade
school, should be a viable way for people to pick up the needed skills. It
seems, however, that bootcamps are over-promising and under delivering.

There is a local bootcamp for JS, HTML and CSS. For $6.5k ($12.5K is the
advertised priced, but corporate and university sponsors routinely pay part of
the cost) and 10 weeks, they should be able to give you a great, solid
foundation in those languages and technologies. Either we got the flunky that
passed by the skin of his teeth, or our HR has some explaining to do. He's
been on board for about 1.5 months, and through some weird agreement beyond my
control, he's just made his first commits for _very_ rudimentary tasks.

I have a couple friends who routinely sit in on interviews for developers in
Houston, Columbus, and Pittsburgh . I made a social media post about
skepticism in bootcamps. They agreed for the most part. They said that
bootcamps can produce quality developers, but the ratio of good to bad
candidates did not smile favorably on bootcamps. The chief complaint seemed to
be that they had no knowledge in a specific area. That is, they knew a little
of everything but not enough to be of use.

~~~
some-guy
A CS degree doesn't prepare you for the developer world in certain ways that a
boot-camp will, but boot-camps are just too short and crammed to really teach
a developer well in my opinion. A boot camp that my housemate is in right now
was required to code merge-sort for a test after three days into it, while
also advertising that prior programming knowledge was not necessary before
starting the program.

I would love to see something in between -- a rigorous two-year software-
engineering program out there sponsored by community colleges combining CS
fundamentals and good up-to-date software engineering practices on large
codebases.

~~~
noxToken
That's what I meant by _I don 't have to have a CS degree to be a good
developer, but there are certain CS fundamentals lacking from bootcamps that
are an investment in your future._ More specifically, things like time
complexity, algorithms, data-structures, programming languages, compilers, and
by extension discreet maths, formal language theory and software
planning/architecture are some of the non-bootcamp concepts that have limited
use as a junior dev working on pieces of a larger project. These CS-specific
concepts become much more prevalent as one moves from, "Find a way to
implement this small feature," to "We need to overhaul this entire part of the
project."

------
sinnet11
I get the perception that people are afraid that these bootcamps will saturate
the marketplace and bring salaries and software quality down. Which _could_
happen, but it also might not. Many of these grads could go on to create
companies themselves and create new jobs, and hey before you know it you'll be
working for a 'bootcamp' grad.

I'm a bootcamp grad and don't believe everyone can 'learn' to code. Same that
everyone can't learn to be a doctor. Everyone has the aptitude to be spoonfed
coding principles or medical terms, but its up to them to really understand
the concepts and then take them to the next level. Many of the grads you see
coming out of the bootcamps may not end up going down the track of software
engineering, they may end up in product, qa, devops, etc... Many of them might
not even become senior because they either don't have the desire to, or just
don't have the capacity to do so. At the end of the day these bootcamps offer
people tools, its up to the people who graduate from them to really sharpen
and build great things from those tools.

------
scratchpad
I really hate to see promotion of bootcamps on HN. I see them as the scourge
of the tech industry. Telling people that a 6 week bootcamp is the same as a 4
year CS degree is absurd and offensive.

Throughout the first dot com boom, we struggled against perceptions that
software development was something trivial done by teenagers in their spare
time. This perception was highly dangerous, not only in terms of professional
respect, salaries, and promotion opportunities, but even to businesses
themselves and the law, as companies were forced to try to explain in court
that achievements such as the Google search algorithm were on par with a major
pharmaceutical project not a lemonaid stand.

Imagine a bootcamp for medicine - in 6 weeks they learn the most common
procedures: how to prescribe antibiotics, how to remove an appendix, and how
to set a broken arm. They're told they can learn the rest as they go, and to
go start calling themselves doctors.

I wouldn't want that medical bootcamp 'doctor' to treat me, and I don't want a
coding bootcamp 'developer' to be responsible for handling my medical data.

~~~
thebiglebrewski
"Telling people that a 6 week bootcamp is the same as a 4 year CS degree is
absurd and offensive."

Any bootcamp telling that to people is obviously lying. Most of them don't
make this claim. The ones that do are better at marketing than teaching.

"Imagine a bootcamp for medicine - in 6 weeks they learn the most common
procedures: how to prescribe antibiotics, how to remove an appendix, and how
to set a broken arm. They're told they can learn the rest as they go, and to
go start calling themselves doctors."

If a website goes down, nobody dies, let's be honest here (in the vast
majority of cases). Also, you're not thinking about this openly enough - not
everyone can teach themselves to learn to code, and bootcamp grads are not
expected to become senior software developers in 6 weeks (plus most programs
are 10-14 weeks). Instead, they're expected to get a junior level position and
keep learning.

I just think that you're view of bootcamps is WAY too black and white. Have a
little imagination and understand that while they're not the right thing for
everyone, there's a gray area and many people actually benefit from them and
get a programming or tech related job, or find out that coding is not for
them, both not terrible outcomes. And then there are bootcamps that are
actually harmful - but it's kind of wrong to group those in with everyone
else.

Just saying not to have a kneejerk reaction about something that's a lot more
complicated than you think it is.

~~~
tkahnoski
The damaging thing most of these websites can do is leak personal information.
Sometimes just annoying, but large scale password breaches can escalate to
secondary problems for the public.

A 4 year CS degree does not necessarily encapsulate security training as it's
usually an elective, but it at least gives the foundational understanding of
algorithms to understand why something is secure vs insecure.

~~~
ativzzz
While I agree that a 4 year CS degree is superior to a bootcamp in terms of
computing knowledge and skill, the notion that knowing anything about
algorithms leads to knowing simple web based security, most of which is baked
into whatever framework you're using anyway, is silly.

------
AlexeyMK
My biggest concern with coding bootcamps as an industry is that the people
making the decision about which bootcamp to attend are dramatically under-
qualified to make the decision and therefore relatively more prone to both
scams and instructor incompetence.

Here's how I imagine this goes, from the author's questions:

> Do you want to do a bootcamp?

I guess so? I'd like a job, and I hear this pays well and folks are hiring.

> Do you want work as a professional developer? If so: front end or back end?

I... what does that even mean? How do I know?

> Any specific programming language you want to learn?

I like the, uhh, curly braces? So... ruby?

> How much money are you willing to spend on tuition?

As much as it takes to set me on the right career path?

> Do you need a lot of mentoring and teaching? Or are able to learn stuff by
> yourself?

This phrasing is patronizing. How about "In your past experience learning
STEM-type material, did you benefit disproportionately from having structured
learning time and dedicated instructors, or were your more the 'learn from the
book' type?"

(As an aside, if you're not an autodidact, you'll probably not do well in the
kinds of positions that people are hiring typical bootcamp grads into, C-grade
start-ups with at most a seed round in funding)

There is probably an opportunity out there for an assessment that yields a
decent prediction for "if I take one of the better bootcamps, is there a
decent chance I will get into an engineering career in tech, and, will I want
to stay there?" This blog post isn't it.

(Another aside, the better bootcamps (HackReactor, for one) have already
gotten rather good at this sort of screening and are generating money based on
their placements and the quality of their reputation).

~~~
mrborgen
"My biggest concern with coding bootcamps as an industry is that the people
making the decision about which bootcamp to attend are dramatically under-
qualified to make the decision and therefore relatively more prone to both
scams and instructor incompetence."

That's one of the main reasons I wrote this article, as I believe that doing
proper research beforehand is one of the best ways to ensure that you don't
end up at a scam bootcamp. I think you'll agree with me on that one.

------
vosper
As a hiring manager I've visited with a number of bootcamps in SF and the East
Bay. They definitely vary in quality, intensity, and in the topics covered.

I've also made two hires from bootcamps. Neither were completely new to
programming (which stood out in the interview process, compared to their
classmates) but they'd both honed their skills during the bootcamp. Both are
excellent, and while they required a lot of mentoring from senior colleagues
initially they both work hard, are highly motivated, and have a strong desire
to learn and prove themselves.

Are they lacking in CS fundmentals? Yes, a little bit; they couldn't tell me
what a good sorting algorithm is, they'd just call array.sort() to get the job
done. Which is exactly what I'd do, even though I went through implementing
quicksort, bubblesort, etc... in my CS degree.

Would I hire them to develop novel algorithms? Probably not (though I wouldn't
rule them out), but they can work an ORM pretty good, can reason through
workflows, and build fairly complex web applications just fine.

I think bootcamps can be a goldmine for hiring. You get to meet dozens of
motivated, enthusiastic junior engineers at each hiring day.

------
plinkplonk
I think the bootcamps are largely a scam, extracting money from desperate
people and delivering far less than they promise. Yes, they should be called
out on HN as borderline scammy.

Against that is the fact that most junior dev jobs are about simple CRUD apps,
which don't take all _that_ much expertise to maintain, and add simple
features to.

The _idea_ that someone with 14 weeks of focused training can be marginally
useful in a real world start up job, (where the code is probably already a
huge rats nest) seems somewhat valid.

------
imgabe
It seems like a lot of people have unrealistic expectations for a bootcamp.
Obviously it's not supposed to be a replacement for a 4-year CS degree.

Look at its military namesake. You don't come out of bootcamp a general, ready
to lead an army. You come out a grunt, at the bottom of the ladder, with the
basic knowledge to do the simplest jobs and the discipline to follow orders.
More complicated jobs require additional training. That seems pretty accurate
for what the bootcamps are promising.

------
stacksonstacks
I went to Maker's Academy in London (£8,000 at the time, I paid for it with
profits from a prior successful exit).

As someone else pointed out, this was run as a for profit college, no surprise
given their VC backing, with a focus on the flavour of the week skills and
buzzwords required to get their graduates a job afterwards ('agile'
check,'MVP' check).

At the time our class was twice the normal size, their "teaching staff" had
trouble coping, and the marketing was thrown at us daily, with promises of
jobs for all.

I had no intention of becoming a developer, and was able to put some of what I
learnt to good use in a new e-commerce business.

Some struggled to get any value out of the course, being told to wait for the
learning curve to kick in, some were judged by Maker's Academy to be somehow
deficient in their attitude or character. There were dropouts as well, who
realised that coding, and the intense, corporate cult atmosphere was not for
them. They were given the ultimatum of come back and try again or forfeit your
fees.

The people who got the most out of it had already coded in the long term prior
to attending, were good at it, and needed the employability that the course
gave.

It was a case of marketing style over educational substance that was taking
people in for near the cost of a year at university.

------
dcole2929
As to the some of the negative opinions I'd like to ask how a graduate from a
boot camp differs from a college intern? Typical bootcamps run 10+ weeks, in
which students basically do nothing but learn programming. Whereas your
typical intern comes to you after maybe 2 years of college where they've done
at best 7 or 8 programming classes, along with a lot of other liberal arts and
gen ed classes. Those other classes can be quite valuable personally but at
the end of the day likely affect the quality of the programmer you're getting
very little.

At my company we hire students from a few schools that require students do
mandatory internships to graduate. The quality varies but honestly the breath
of experience is probably the same. Except the bootcamp grads are probably
somewhat older than the typical 20-22 yo interns we get. I obviously can't say
for sure but I'd guess that the sheer number of hours put in by a bootcamp
grad probably equals that of a mid year college student. The difference
between interns and junior level employees are generally minuscule unless the
junior dev has previous work experience anyway so if you're company is hiring
interns anyway I don't see any reason why not to kick the tire on a few
bootcamp grads.

~~~
Kalium
A college intern and a bootcamp grad are likely to have a different amount of
exposure to computer science fundamentals. Moreover, once the intern is done
cooking, you should expect that "likely" to graduate into an "almost
certainly".

When the fresh college grad and the bootcamp grad are doing mindless CRUD-y
apps and basic CSS, you shouldn't expect much difference. Once things become
more demanding and require a greater grasp of algorithms, data structures, and
discrete mathematics you are far more likely to notice a sizable difference.

------
mrborgen
Hey, author of the article here. I'm happy to answer any questions if
anybody's got any.

~~~
jonesb6
When I dropped out of college to start working in tech I spoke with one of my
professors who urged me to do a bootcamp instead (he had some kind of loose
affiliation with it) and was able to spew off some impressive statistics, 90%+
employment rate, amazing salaries, etc.

I told him that moment that there was no way those statistics were honest, at
the very least they were surely either maintaining ludicrous acceptance
standards (only accepting experienced developers who already had hiring
potential) or were using loose interpretations of the words "employment" and
"salary" where a job was a gig and perks got attributed dollar sign values
etc.

I did not go the bootcamp route and to this day maintain the same opinion, the
value of bootcamps is dubious at best and a cash grab similar to for-profit
education in the United States at worst.

And finally I'm extremely cynical of "that one success story that proves x was
a good idea and you should do it too". Although I found your article very
thoughtful, I can't help but draw connections between "That one new dieting
trick that helped Larry lose 20 lbs in six weeks!", and "That coding boot camp
that directly led me to make more then my doctor friend".

Any thoughts on my skepticism, given that you've actually done one? Again
thoughtful article, it makes me feel bad for shooting down bootcamps.

[1]: [http://www.skilledup.com/articles/bootcamps-san-
francisco](http://www.skilledup.com/articles/bootcamps-san-francisco)

~~~
hox
As a hiring manager who has hired from boot camps, I view boot camps simply as
an organized medium to encourage career change into tech. They are not unlike
undergraduate computer science programs - neither program is required to start
a career in tech, but some people need organization and a clear path to get
there.

Sometimes a little guidance and networking enables an individual to excel
where they might otherwise find themselves lost. Boot camps can provide this
stability, as long as the program isn't misguided.

In the end, it's down to the individual to make their career. I would never
hire blind from a boot camp.

~~~
enraged_camel
Completing them also signals dedication and a strong work ethic, which are
very important qualities to have in programming, especially when starting out.

------
cyantt
I see a lot of people here dismissing bootcamps completely, either having bad
experiences hiring students from them, or just not agreeing about the message
and promise of a high paying job they send to prospective students. I just
want to share my experience.

I am a graduate from the first class of an early bootcamp that started in
early 2013, close to the time when they were popping up all over the place.
This bootcamp is still operating today. I remain in contact with some of my
past classmates, and the bootcamp staff. From my personal experience, and from
what the staff has told me, there seems to be two criteria shared between
successful students who go on to get hired quickly and become good developers:

\- They go into the bootcamp from a technical background (either doing
IT/programming/web design in their free time for fun or from past work
experience)

\- They have a penchant for knowledge and self-learning (in anything they are
interested in)

In my case, I messed around a lot with computers growing up and coded some
simple websites by teaching myself HTML, CSS, and some Javascript/PHP. Prior
to the bootcamp, I had worked as an IT Helpdesk Technician, and had dropped
out of college after my first year. I did not have any CS or programming
paradigm (OOP, FP, MVC, Algorithms, etc) knowledge.

In the past 2 1/2 years, my knowledge of CS and programming in general has
grown exponentially. I have a firm grasp of many different concepts and can
learn the basics of new ideas, languages, and libraries relatively quickly. I
have worked at two different companies during this time, and have been told at
both that I was almost passed up due to the bad flak that bootcamp graduates
get. At both stints, I over-delivered on their expectations they had of me,
and quickly became an asset and valued part of the team that helped deliver a
lot of business value.

My success can be attributed to what I have learned in the bootcamp, my past
technical experience, and the time and effort I put in during my free time to
teach myself new skills. Going to the bootcamp gave me an accelerated head
start into the world of programming, and laid down a solid foundation for me
to build future knowledge upon. This is what a good bootcamp should do. They
should train their students to become great beginners, who can pick up a
junior developer job and quickly start contributing to their team.

Other successful students from my bootcamp all seem to share the two criteria
listed above. Even if we all come from different economic, educational, or
technical backgrounds. This isn't to say that ALL successful students share
those two traits, some can have one but not the other.

The people that don't succeed usually end up being the ones who only see the
"get a six-figure job in 12 weeks" headline. Usually, they do not have a
technical background nor know of the programming landscape that rapidly
changes and evolves, and the effort needed to keep one's knowledge current
because of it. They might not even have any interest in programming at all.
Sometimes they even have a CS degree.

So, how can you find and weed out these good developers then?

\- Ask about what they did before the bootcamp

\- Ask if they had any technical experience before joining the bootcamp,
either personal or professional

\- If so, ask for examples. Really look at their portfolio and code (if they
have any). Look at their github profile and see if they had commits from
before they went to the bootcamp, if available

\- Ask how they learn new skills, what resources do they like to use, what
kind of a learner they are

Some signs that the bootcamp graduate probably won't work out are:

\- No git history after the bootcamp

\- No portfolio, no website

\- You don't get a feeling that they enjoy learning new things

\- No technical experience from before the bootcamp

\- No interest in programming or technology at all

It isn't impossible to find a bootcamp graduate who can quickly integrate into
your team and become an asset. You just have to give the right ones a chance.

~~~
mrborgen
Great points. This is very much aligned with my experience.

