
China's return to religion - magda_wang
http://www.npr.org/2017/04/12/523631598/the-souls-of-china-documents-countrys-dramatic-return-to-religion
======
baobrain
My experience in China as a student point me to believe that most Chinese
kowtow and go to temples for tradition and spirituality rather than
institutionalized religion.

The entire article sounds like a westerner applying their cultural values and
their sense of righteousness to China. For example:

>"But I do think that it does create values that are higher than any
government's values - ideas of righteousness and justice that people are
inspired by and that will inspire them to action if they feel that they are
unjustly treated by the government."

(I'm an american born chinese but was brought to China for about 6 years by my
mother)

Edit: My grandmother is extremely Buddhist, and both my mother and I are
nonreligious. Even so, my mother brought me to the Confucius temple to kowtow
and light incense, not because it actually did anything, but because it was a
move of ancestral respect and tradition.

~~~
osicanstos
I completely agree. It makes me wonder if these authors really believe what
they are saying or if they are trying to spin a narrative that helps them sell
books?

The other annoying thing that Western authors on China do is attribute
everything to "face" and try to use this point as a huge distinction between
Chinese and Westerners.

~~~
Markoff
it's funny considering face stuff works pretty much same in West, just not to
that extent as in China, yeah people will admit they don't know something
unlike China, but still don't dare to tell someone they are cheap for instance

~~~
sharun
> people will admit they don't know something

Trump is working hard on changing that misconception.

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personjerry
I'm of the understanding that many Chinese families are "spiritual" and
believe in "traditions" and "folklore" but institutionalize religion as it is
known in the west is not really seen in China.

That's why I wonder if the "oh no it's not religion because the government
controls religion" arguments are the author jumping to conclusions.

This in fact seems like the patronizing form of Orientalism:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism)
In the sense that we are forcing our Western understanding of religion onto
our understanding of Chinese "religion", and then drawing conclusions from
there.

I question the validity of the author's claim that a Chinese person said: "oh
no it's not religion because the government controls religion" because it's
unlikely for a Chinese person to openly talk against the government like that,
especially with a foreigner, especially with a stranger.

~~~
Cyph0n
Isn't that because the CCP is against religion?

------
contingencies
16 years in China (many cities and towns and villages) here. No evidence of
religion except in strange cases where they have a Christian family and go to
government-approved/run churches. My wife is muslim and the general situation
is that while they don't eat pork, people drink alcohol and wear normal
clothes and are otherwise perfectly the same as regular Chinese people. They
only go to the mosque for weddings and funerals. Other comments are correct
re: ritual (particularly in Confucian cases) far trumps any notion of what
westerners would label religion.

ie. Basically the entire notion of the article is bullshit. (Sorry to left-
wing NPR-worshipping American friends, and "Pullitzer prize winning" Beijing-
dwelling author trying to sell a book)

~~~
ZanyProgrammer
There's the phenomenon of "cultural" Christians (of all denominations)who only
attend church for lifecycle events and major holidays like Christmas and
Easter.

Quite often they are looked down upon by more heated Protestants.

~~~
henrikschroder
When I grew up in Sweden in the 80's, I was a member of the state church
despite not being baptized, because it was the state church, and my parents
were members, so I was automatically added.

Almost everyone of my classmates were baptized and later confirmed. Everyone
went to weddings and funerals in church. The school semester ending gatherings
were held in church, we sung psalms, a priest read the christmas gospel if it
was christmas, and something lighter if it was summer. Some would wear a cross
necklace. If you asked people if they were christian, most would say "yes".

But noone was a believer. None of my classmates were christians. Almost none
of their parents were. Yet to a casual observer, it would have appeared we
were all good christian children. And since almost everyone was a member of
the church, the official statistics backed it up. From the outside, you would
have to poke pretty hard to figure out that no, none of these people are
actually christian.

And it seems like the guy in the article isn't poking hard enough. He just
sees religious activity, and immediately equates that with religious belief.
Why would people go to church if they're not religious?

Why, indeed?

~~~
candiodari
It seriously depends on the religion whether the "believer" concept really
makes sense. Believer in Christianity is meant to express a trust in God,
faith in a very personal sense. Despite this being the intention, I would
argue that it's not true for a great many Christians who instead want to feel
like they belong in the social setting built up for & by and surrounding the
Church.

The concepts of belief in most other religions are very different. Nobody in
Egypt will tell you that they have trust in Allah to heal them and keep them
healthy, just that they live in muslim country, the way "you live in the USA",
and that the laws are what matters. Ignoring the religion is borderline
acceptable (IF you're male), going against it is like what I imagine being a
dissident in China is like. While they're probably not going to kill you at
the first sign, society and the state will attack you in small ways, and then
build up. It is not out of the question that they'll eventually kill you for
it. Nobody, and I mean nobody on this planet believes Allah will protect them
from illnesses if they eat halal food. But there is a clear threat, at the
forefront of everyone's mind, that is keeping muslims in Egypt islamic. They
don't see this as a problem, after all, any other state is no different, right
?

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Apocryphon
This article mostly talks about religions in terms of culture- customs and
ritual practice and instilling traditional values-

 _But I think there 's also in a more positive sense that the government
recognizes that there is a lack of values in society - that people don't
believe in anything and there's a great uncertainty in society, a national
malaise. And they also recognize that most people really don't believe in
communism anymore. So they look at the traditional faiths as a way of
instilling some kind of morality, basic principles for good living and that
sort of thing._

\- as opposed to supernatural beliefs. The discussion thread should likewise
focus on the social role that religion fulfills in terms of culture and public
morality, because that was the emphasis of the article. Commentators are too
easily jumping to the lightning rod of the validity of religious claims,
ignoring other aspects that organized religion plays.

------
hackuser
What about Confucianism? It's odd to read an article about religion in China
that doesn't even mention it (other than reference to the temples, which I
assume were Confucian).

Perhaps there's something I misunderstand. AFAIK Confucianism isn't a religion
worshiping a supernatural being as much as a philosophy and culture which
includes ancestor worship. But my understanding, based on a little reading and
study of my own, is that it played a very similar role to religion in Western
countries.

Generally speaking, it was the 'religion' of China from around 250 BCE until
at least 1911.

~~~
Markoff
you answered your own question, it's not religion but philosophy, similar to
Buddhism which ain't religion too, depending on definition

~~~
sorokod
To see Buddhism as a full blown religion ( and very aggressive at that) visit
Burma or Sri Lanka

------
woodandsteel
From what I understand, a key reason the Chinese government is suspicious of
Christianity and Islam is they are both universalist religions that hold that
all human beings are sons and daughters of the same God, and so all deserve to
be treated with respect.

China, from what I understand, has traditionally held that the Chinese people
and state are superior to everyone else, and so deserve a superior status in
the world.

~~~
Jack000
maybe prior to colonialism. The modern conservative Chinese narrative is more
of an inferiority complex rather than the opposite.

It's easy to see why the CCP is against religion - the party is rooted with
the cult of Mao, which is a de-facto religion. And like most other religions
it does not tolerate the existence of competing religions.

~~~
woodandsteel
>maybe prior to colonialism. The modern conservative Chinese narrative is more
of an inferiority complex rather than the opposite.

Yea, I see what you are saying. But I also get the impression they think they
are going to regain their status as "the center of the world"

>It's easy to see why the CCP is against religion - the party is rooted with
the cult of Mao, which is a de-facto religion. And like most other religions
it does not tolerate the existence of competing religions.

Most definitely.

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filereaper
Interesting, if religion is on the upswing in China. I wonder how the people
feel about the government's involvement with the Panchen Lama. [1]

I didn't know much about this till recently.

[1] [https://youtu.be/bLY45o6rHm0](https://youtu.be/bLY45o6rHm0)

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peter303
Only two Christian denominations permitted: old Latin Catholic and a generic
Protestant.

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taksintikk
That's unfortunate.

I thought the official communist stance of atheism helped them grow in
multiples not possible for dogmatic societies.

~~~
unit91
That doesn't mean China has no dogma, it means atheism _is_ its dogma.

Google's definition:

dogma: (noun) a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as
incontrovertibly true

~~~
kapauldo
Atheism is not dogma. That's wordsmithing to help believers in god feel
comfort in a false equivalency between conception withour sperm and the cosmos
/ observable world empiricism.

~~~
ue_
Atheism certainly can be dogma, especially in the strong variety. It is
usually also coupled with a healthy dose of scientism.

~~~
dlwdlw
Yea, science is often weaponized by non-scientific people as an im-smarter-
cudgel.

------
mbfg
There's a diamond, buried in my backyard, the size of a washing machine.
Knowing it's there, gives my life meaning. It bring me peace, and guides my
life. Frankly, i wouldn't want to life in a universe where that diamond wasn't
there. -- Harris 4:2

~~~
mirimir
See [http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/secular-philosophies/why-
rel...](http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/secular-philosophies/why-religion-
must-end-interview-with-sam-harris.aspx?p=3)

