
“You're on the verge of losing everything but you don’t understand why” - sjclemmy
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-42789610
======
michaelmrose
How this would have looked in the US.

* Relationship with girlfriend breaks up and you move in with parents.

* Parents medical bills eat up everything they have and more when they pass away their creditors swoop in to take anything that's left.

* You are kindly told you will be moved to the street so you get a job. Your part time job pays enough for you to crash on a couch or at best maybe rent a room somewhere if your lucky.

* When you get attacked you have no insurance so you now owe $5000 which you have no way to pay and a prescription for opoids.

* You apply for disability but get denied. No help is forthcoming. You quickly lose your place to live about 3 days after the rent is due. Nobody cares why you can't pay. Your address is now the street corner where you stick your pile of dirty blankets.

* Due to your financial situation and eviction you will never be able to rent anything without substantial money up front and nobody wants to hire you.

* After the initial perscription(s) of opoids wear off you now have pain AND an addiction unlikely to be satisfied legally. You turn to panhandling and use the money to buy heroin.

* You get a dose that happened to be cut with something far too strong and nobody realizes your dead until someone complains about the smell.

~~~
hestipod
I'm going to tell a story about two people and two outcomes and hope people
will read it.

One man in Europe suffered a serious illness and was unable to continue in his
previous career and had no new marketable skills. He had access to a robust
social system that covered his living costs, medical care, and re-education.
After several years of treatment and learning, he now has a wife and kids,
amazing job that works with his disabilities, and a future. That guy is a
former acquaintance of mine.

The second guy in the USA also lost his life due to medical issues, in his
case a misdiagnosis and poorly done surgery. He had to then live off of
savings and a tiny pension (which he was fortunate to even have but covered a
fraction of his costs) with no insurance or access to good medical care since
he lost his job provided insurance. He fought in court for years for
disability and was denied repeatedly. He bounced around trying to find a place
to live and access to services, even cheaper countries, but could never get
legitimized or stabilized anywhere as he had no real support. He tried to self
educate but the lack of stability and increasing medical issues without proper
care always disrupted any attempts. His loved ones abandoned him as is all so
common in long term illness and suffering. Depression and suicidal thoughts
then take even more of that precious energy and he knows down deep at his age,
and with his needs, all is lost. That guy is me.

So the takeaway is next time you are faced with the issue of social systems
and if they are "worth it" or if people "deserve" your contribution to the
whole, please remember this story. If you can't care about the human element
and need a practical reason, think about whether it's truly better for society
to bring people back into the fold and make them a productive part again, or
if casting them off as broken and useless is really "better". More importantly
think about if it was YOU or a loved one in need...who could have a future and
contribute if just given the opportunities. It's too late for me but maybe not
for you and the next person in my shoes.

~~~
tripzilch
Here is another story:
[http://www.iquilezles.org/blog/?p=2659](http://www.iquilezles.org/blog/?p=2659)

When I read this I cried. I'm also the lucky bastard who got to live in a
country with a great social system, but if I had been born in the USA, I
could've been that woman. I would have fucked up, and probably somehow managed
to fuck up my relationship with my family (last line of support without a
functioning social system), I love them and they're here for me, but I fear I
might've burned bridges because of all the stress and psychological issues, if
it wasn't for the social system in my country. In the US I would have ended up
on the streets, probably become an addict, probably be dead.

~~~
hestipod
The number of people in this situation in this country is so huge people just
cannot accept it and ignore it for their own bias/sanity. That woman is
stronger than me as I would never last out on the street and have always said
I would end things when it gets to that point. The savings will run out soon
enough and the last room in the last corner of the last resentful family I
have is wearing thin, so my resolve will be tested sooner rather than later. I
have avoided the addiction route so far as most drugs just make me feel worse,
but I can completely see how it so easily happens to so many. There comes a
time you just want ANYTHING to take away the pain or make you feel different
if even for a moment.

It's enraging to know what you need is very possible and being done
elsewhere...but you aren't "allowed" that chance to live and people all around
you are adamantly against it. I will never understand this cruelty and
selfishness.

~~~
tripzilch
(I really hope you still read this, because I didn't see your reply until five
days later, sorry)

I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. I wish you all the strength.
_Hugs_.

Good to hear you're avoiding addiction so far, it will sap your resolve like
nothing else. Please also remember that alcohol is a terrible addictive hard
drug that will drag you down just as easily as the illegal drugs would (in
particular as soon as you use it for escape, like you describe). It's
basically an unnecessary extra fight you have to fight in addition to all the
other shit. I'm actually struggling with that a little myself, but the social
help I can get here (as well as a super supportive family/parents), gives me
relief and space needed to battle that too.

Even with proper social support, mental health problems are super hard. Other
people [including gov help] can't fight the fight in your head for you, just
point one in the right direction, provide motivation, and perhaps take other
weights off your shoulders.

Sorry, I just read back your post and your problems are physical. The
following advice remains the same.

You may be able to find people that want to help. Just random good people are
out there. But even if you find people willing/able to do that for you, it's a
difficult and humbling search to find out _how exactly_ they can unburden you
without it actually costing you just as much energy. If there are people
willing to help you, think very hard and make a good and clear plan. Be clear
how exactly they can help you, especially the little things, that may be super
easy for others and hard for you. You need to tell them explicitly and without
shame. One other thing that is important is if you know a generous angel, is
to discuss how _often_ you need this help. Maybe your neighbour will help you
with groceries or taking out the trash (or whatever), but if you actually
depend on that help, while they're just happy to help out their neighbour this
one time, you'll be expending as much energy finding _someone_ to help you
this week, and the next. I get that it's hard to ask someone offering help to
help you even _more_ , but if you understand what I'm saying you will be able
to explain. Ask them to be honest and only offer you time they are comfortable
with (and without regretting it after a while). Maybe they'll tell you they
can realistically help you take out the trash once a month. That's cool,
because that's one out of four weeks. But now you know someone you can depend
on, you know what you're asking is not too much for them, you can _feel_
better about getting the help, knowing this is what they're comfortable with.
I'm not saying you should refuse one-time help, but that it's important to
_have_ this discussion (openly) so you know _when_ (or _if_ ) you can depend
on them again.

The above is a piece of advice I got from a magazine that people in my country
(Netherlands) receive when they are on long-term disability benefits (called
"UWV Perspectief", for any Dutch still reading along). It's a great magazine
(beautiful design and typography too :p), even if I find it hard to read
because it's kind of confronting, I'm kind of amazed that this thing exists.

I am so incredibly thankful for this aspect of my country. I'll be forever in
its debt. I try to repay as much as I can by doing volunteer work, teaching
kids programming and computer stuff, helping them studying for math tests (and
just being a kind person to them--the place where I work has a social function
for kids with difficult backgrounds too). That way I'm using the things that I
learned studying Computational Science, all that knowledge I can't use in a
"proper" (paying) job, because I can only do it for 10 hours per week (I need
the other time mostly to rest, and keep my apartment in order, administrative
stuff, laundry etc, which is equally taxing for me). It gives me meaning and
feel I'm contributing to society (maybe even more than _some_ paying jobs that
people do; but that's a very personal opinion and I'm in no position to be on
a high horse).

I really hope that you pull through in some way or another, and find a way to
live with ease.

~~~
hestipod
Thank you for the response. I always appreciate well meaning people but the
problem is there has never been any truly actionable advice. People tend to
react one of two ways when you tell them "that hasn't worked"...either they
retreat into silence or they attack out of defensiveness. This is universal in
my experience no matter how I approach it. The only way to avoid one of these
is to say "thank you I will try it" to make them feel good then retreat
yourself.

I have never met anyone who has survived in this situation who didn't have
lots of help...either social support, family support, or both. I have none of
that thus my hopelessness. I am clinging to Maslow's bottom rungs and expected
to somehow "self actualize" nonetheless.

I hate my life, hate where I live (country and location) and see no future. I
have asked for help directly and clearly for over a decade and gotten ignored
or blamed. Anytime I do ask for that help the results are ALWAYS the
same...most people ignore, some get angry out of guilt or bother or whatever
and attack, a handful offer contacts and commiseration and maybe one of those
people actually respond but end up disappearing after giving me standard self
help advice from books or forums that is always inapplicable or out of
context. It's why at this point I just complain when I speak of things as I
have learned asking doesn't change anything. I need practical, concrete,
consistent help. If I had that I believe I could get some semblance of a life
back and contribute...but after this long and things getting so much worse I
am giving up as it's shown to be pointless.

This country and culture is so anti everything I need and won't change in my
lifetime if ever...and I cannot get myself established anywhere better for me.
Knowing it's practically possible but I cannot access it has ruined me and I
am just about done.

~~~
nkoren
I keep thinking about your situation. This is something that I really care
about. In the long term I hope to shape society to deal better with these
scenarios; in the short term, I'm living in a flatshare working on my startup
for less than minimum wage, so capacity to do anything tangible is
frustratingly limited.

I've got a couple of dear friends in similar situations to yours. So far
they're making do, because they've gotten lucky and found sheds in the back
yards of sympathetic friends that they could live in long-term (or equivalent
scenarios). Absence that kind of informal safety-net, their situations would
be significantly more dire.

I'm in the UK with long-term health issues that the NHS has been a godsend for
-- but my visa status is uncertain, and being bounced back to America is
always a risk. Health would be a major concern should that happen, and income
concerns would follow shortly thereafter. My last-ditch backup plan, in that
case, is to go mostly off-grid and move back to Arcosanti (www.arcosanti.org),
where I (partially) grew up. The cost-of-living there would be wildly reduced,
making financial survival possible unless my mobility/pain became 100%
untenable. Maybe something like that would be viable for you?

~~~
hestipod
I could never survive in even less robust conditions. I need certain things,
certain services, medical care that requires long time to deal with etc. I
have reduced my life to the bare minimum survivable for me in the name of
preserving money and it's not enough. Any "advice" requires reducing more or
suffering more either through subtraction or addition. I can't live like that.
I had some plan to write a post here in AskHN to lay it out and maybe some
miracle idea or plan would result but I finally realized I have done that sort
of thing repeatedly over the years and the predictable results always take
rather than give so there is no point.

Anyone I connect with in private and spend energy engaging and explaining
things to in depth just repeats the same script of things everyone things you
can and should do and I end up more depressed and hopeless and they end up
disappearing either outright or after some lecture and victim blaming. I know
why they do it, to preserve a sense of security for themselves, but it drains
me nonetheless. I can't get what I really need in this place and can't
realistically establish anywhere I could. Hope has gasped its last breath.

~~~
nkoren
I get that. Unless you explain the situation to me in detail, I _definitely_
won't have a useful solution for you. And even _after_ you explain the
situation to me in detail, I _probably_ won't have a useful solution for you.
This would be a lot of emotional labour for an interaction where the median
expected value seems very low, and the mode is zero. Totally get why this
isn't something you'd want to go through repeatedly.

(Actually, describing it in this way reminds me of pitching a book to a
publisher, or a startup to an investor. Each pitch takes a really significant
amount of energy, and you have to be prepared to do it many dozens of times
with completely null results -- and with no guarantee that there will ever be
anything _other_ than a null result. This breaks a lot of peoples' spirits. I
know a handful of brilliant writers with unpublished novels sitting on their
shelves, because they just couldn't keep going through the pitch-rejection
cycle. As writers, they are probably superior to, say, Agatha Christie, who
endured five years of nonstop rejection before making her first sale. But they
are not as stubborn, and therein lies the rub.)

So, yeah, I understand. The only thing I can counter with is that even if you
_feel_ like you've explored the whole possibility-space, you haven't. Nobody
has -- ever. There may be solutions for you; there _always_ may be solutions
for you; the question is how to maintain the core internal energy to keep
searching for them.

I don't have any super-brilliant advice in that regard. Only thing I can offer
-- and you've probably already gotten this plenty of times; apologies if so --
is that meditation can be extraordinarily helpful for this kind of thing. Not
_immediately_ helpful -- the benefits can take weeks or months to fully kick
in -- but simply being in touch with your breathing, and training your mind to
be free of the cycles of worry which it otherwise is (necessarily) consumed
by, can help you find that core of energy if it exists. In general, if you are
breathing: it exists. And even if it is doesn't, meditation can help you look
at the situation more dispassionately. What you _don 't_ want to do is to make
permanent decisions out of exhaustions or frustrations which may not, in a
bigger picture that you haven't been able to consider, be permanent.

Final bit of advice: if you don't have the ability to meditate (physical or
mental challenges can sometimes make this impossible), psilocybes can provide
a viable shortcut for similar results. I definitely recommend not checking out
until you've consulted with them first. What have you got to lose? :-)

~~~
hestipod
I do meditate and it, like most things, has SOME beneficial effect, but not
near enough and not near as much as the label on the tin says in my
experience. No access to psychonaut stuff but I'd try in the right conditions
with someone I could count on.

I have drafted the "last ditch Ask HN for ideas" post but not sure when to
post it. I know if it goes badly or is ignored outright it will really affect
me and bring me down hard.

I am so far beyond mind game stuff being able to help...I need Maslows bottom
rungs stabilized before I can do the rest...people always expect you to do it
backwards.

~~~
nkoren
> I am so far beyond mind game stuff being able to help...I need Maslows
> bottom rungs stabilized before I can do the rest...people always expect you
> to do it backwards.

Oh yeah, I definitely appreciate that self-actualisation can't happen without
the lower tiers being stabilised. That's not what I'm saying; all I'm
suggesting is that mindset counts for a _lot_. I'll going to try be delicate
about this because I don't want to come off as victim-blaming: I completely
understand that the circumstance you're in isn't your fault, and the right
mindset won't make opportunities for getting out of your situation magically
appear. But the wrong mindset can without a doubt blind you to legitimate
opportunities that might exist. This is why I recommend working on it.

As a rather concrete example: -- going to have to redact some details here for
confidentiality reasons -- I recently hired someone for part-time work, whose
situation resembles yours in a number of respects, including long-term
unemployment. I was not able to pay for full-time work or at market rates, but
our new employee is still earning a meaningful multiple of what they were
getting on benefits, so it's a solid step up. I can see how the role they've
taken might, at some companies, be tedious -- but the way we do things, it's
an intellectually stimulating, self-directed, remote-work, set-your-own-hours-
and-pace sort of job. So far this new employee is loving it. I have high hopes
that it'll help them get that bottom tier of the pyramid firmed up.

In fact it's a job that I'm absolutely certain you would have the ability to
do, and would even enjoy -- but the superficial job description is one that
I've already seen you explicitly rule out as "soul killing". And probably at
90% of companies, you'd be right. At the other 10%, you'd be wrong. But that
all-important 10% won't be available to you if you block yourself from seeing
it.

In order for any opportunities to be available to you, they must both
objectively exist _and_ be subjectively perceived by you. For the former: yes,
I have no doubt that such opportunities are few and far between, but given
your obvious intellectual abilities, I _know_ that they exist. I have more
concerns for the latter, hence my recommendation that you interrogate your
assumptions and your perceptions.

Anyhow, I've banged on about this enough, and hope you take my criticism in
the constructive spirit it is intended! I would sincerely like to see things
work out for you.

------
dm319
I know most people here are fairly well-paid, intelligent and many are well-
adjusted and stable. But it'd be mistake to assume this happens to other
people. Sometimes a series of unfortunate events (lost job, lost child, lost
marriage) trigger a series of events, helped by alcohol and poor-decision
making and resulting in homelessness and poverty.

When I lived in Oxford I came across a book put together of mini-interviews of
the homeless there - their stories. It really surprised me how many of the
biographies started off with a well-paid professional job with a happy family
and spiralled out of control.

~~~
dazc
A bout of depression or a series of unfortunate events can certainly put you
into a tail-spin that's difficult to get out of. I've been there; it's like
you know what you need to do but something is weighing on you with such a
force that it can be very difficult to fight against.

Ending up on the streets with nothing is a natural conclusion and what happens
then is partly a test of character and partly luck. For many it's the end of
the road.

~~~
yetanother1980
> Ending up on the streets with nothing is a natural conclusion and what
> happens then is partly a test of character and partly luck. For many it's
> the end of the road.

I would argue that it is a test of society. We should judge ourselves on how
we treat the weakest amongst us.

~~~
dazc
I agree in principal but society is currently set-up to help those who are
first to ask for it.

Paradoxically, many such problems come-about as a result of being reluctant to
ask for help because it is perceived as a sign of weakness.

~~~
mercer
I think this is actually one particularly good reason why society should be
set up in such a way that this kind of help is so 'normal' that it wouldn't
even be considered asking for help.

I know quite a few people who lived on unemployment for a year or so, whether
between college and their first job, between various jobs, or because of
mental health issues. While even here (NL) there's still a stigma attached to
'doing that', I'm convinced that none of these people would've taken this path
if it wasn't so relatively normal.

------
arethuza
It's a tragedy that the country of Nye Bevan and Clement Attlee has come to
this.

I'm reminded of a quote that I think I first read in "Chavs: The Demonization
of the Working Class" (NB strongly recommended):

 _" There’s been class warfare for the last 20 years, and my class has won"_

Warren Buffet

Edit: I'm in the middle of reading "Citizen Clem" and what an extraordinarily
capable chap Attlee was. Here's a good article on him in (of all places) the
Daily Mail:

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3174009/DOMINIC-
SA...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3174009/DOMINIC-SANDBROOK-
Labour-s-greatest-leader-teach-squabbling-pygmies.html)

Edit2: Even Thatcher was a fan of Attlee: _" Of Clement Attlee, however, I was
an admirer. He was a serious man and a patriot. Quite contrary to the general
tendency of politicians in the 1990s, he was all substance and no show."_

~~~
Nursie
I've not read "Chavs: The Demonization of the Working Class", but from what
little I know of it one (probably minor) thing that Jones tries to establish
is that the very word "Chav" is a classist acronym for "Council Housed And
Violent".

This is a retrofit for narrative purposes, invented by Jones, who seeks to
demonise the word and in doing so police its use. The origins of the term are
much older (before council houses in fact).

Having read quite a number of his columms for the guardian, he seems to
represent a lot that I dislike about the UK left and their tendency to try to
redefine popular terms in such a way as to demonise their users. It's straw-
man fallacy writ large - you said "chav" therefore you are classist (Tory)
scum. Actually I said chav because that group of loud, ridiculously dressed
arseholes over there is starting to kick off, I don't give a shit what their
socio-economic background might be.

I have left-leaning tendencies, I think the benefits system in the UK is a
f*cking shambles, the NHS needs help and is an essential service, that there's
a lot more we can do to help our people thrive and succeed. But this vein of
pious language-warping really puts me off from identifying with the self-
identified left or the Labour party.

~~~
aninhumer
>The origins of the term are much older (before council houses in fact).

This may be true, but FWIW, the first time I heard the term it was introduced
to me with a similar backronym. And not as some "isn't this awful classism"
disclaimer, but as a gleeful denigration of the people it referred to. That
there is an older etymology does not necessarily mean Jones invented the
backronym.

>Actually I said chav because that group of loud, ridiculously dressed
arseholes over there is starting to kick off

While I too have used the term, and feel like I was doing objection to
genuinely unpleasant people, I remain suspicious of this argument, because it
sounds a lot like "I don't mind black people, I just don't like black
culture". A lot of what gets read as obnoxious is just cultural differences,
and this is especially true of judgements like "ridiculously dressed".

~~~
Nursie
>> That there is an older etymology does not necessarily mean Jones invented
the backronym.

It seems to originate with him, AFAICT, or at least at more or less the exact
same time. And it fits his narrative suspiciously well.

I first heard the word 'chav' used a good decade before the book.

>> "I don't mind black people, I just don't like black culture".

I don't believe dressing and behaving like an arsehole are necessarily part of
working class culture. I could be wrong. It's not my background, though it is
my mother's and a variety of my friends'

~~~
aninhumer
Obviously not all working class people are part of the same culture, but I
think the very fact that the stereotype of "Chav" exists beyond merely being
obnoxious (since there are obviously obnoxious people who we wouldn't consider
"Chavs") suggests there is a cultural component.

And it's when you say including aspects like clothing that the idea starts to
sound classist. How exactly does someone "dress like an arsehole"? Is their
clothing somehow inherently offensive, or do you just dislike it because it
doesn't fit your own aesthetics, and/or because you associate it with a
negative type of person?

~~~
dazc
'How exactly does someone "dress like an arsehole"?'

Just guessing, as a random sample of the ways some people choose to dress in
the UK.

Wearing pyjamas and bathrobe in the supermarkt?

Wearing sports clothing despite looking like they don't ever actually do any
sports?

Wearing trousers/jeans that don't go all the way up to the waist?

------
cjrp
> Mullings, your legal advisor, tells you it might not feel like it, but
> you're one of the lucky ones. At least because this was a housing case you
> had legal representation. If you hadn't, you would have been steamrollered.

Primarily as a result of cuts to the legal aid system[1]. Design a benefits
system that's incredibly complex and all too easy to fall foul of, and then
deny any kind of legal assistance in the inevitable appeal. I hope Iain Duncan
Smith and his colleagues are one day able to reflect on what they've created.

[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/legal-aid-
cuts...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/legal-aid-cuts-
benefits-cases-state-help-dla-esa-ministry-justice-disability-living-
allowance-a8028936.html)

------
yason
Given the bureaucratic complexity of welfare and social support in most
countries there might be a solution to a problem nobody wants to see.

Welfare support has long time ago reached the level where it's difficult if
not impossible for a normal, working, and still mentally capable person to
understand everything and their caveats — not to mention someone who has first
had hard luck, is then subsequently out of energy, and is finally subjected to
the experience of being a cog in the very machine that is the bureaucracy.

From programmer's point of view the obvious solution is encapsulation.

Let's keep the private parts to the implementation and only offer a reasonable
public interface. That means a dedicated social worker who knows both the
rules and knows you.

An outsider can't be expected to chug along with the ever-mutating directives,
laws, guidances, and rules that are part of the bureaucracy's own operation
and related legislation. Let the bureau have people who take human
descriptions of one's life and work out the best plan out of available
benefits. The insiders have the knowledge of what works together and how to
make the system work.

This would also be more efficient: failed applications, missing actions,
mismatched assumptions, eviction orders, court cases, etc do all cost the
bureau some time and money already in the current system. If there was an
inside person who could rule out the impossible branches right away and check
eligibility on the applicant's first or second visit, everyone would save
time.

~~~
pjc50
There are volunteers that perform this function. However, the hostility of the
bureaucracy today is _not an accident_. It's a matter of policy. The intent is
to make people go away without paying them money. The people responsible blind
themselves to the fact that some of these people "go away" because they have
died.

~~~
ldrndll
> some of these people "go away" because they have died

For anyone thinking this is hyperbole, one recent case[1] was of an anorexic
woman found dead in her freezing cold flat because she couldn't afford to run
the heating. She had been sanctioned for missing a jobseekers meeting due to
being in ICU.

1: [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/anorexic-
woma...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/anorexic-woman-dead-
universal-credit-benefits-cut-found-freezing-cold-flat-too-ill-meeting-
elaine-a8045796.html)

~~~
johncarmichael3
When you combine stories like this along with the massively convoluted legal
system and incredibly dense surveillance penetrating everything all the time,
it makes me terrified to even visit the place. When traveling to Europe I
route around instead of doing stopovers in UK.

------
cjsuk
Ignoring the obvious welfare complaint, which I incidentally agree with, it
paints a pretty good picture of all the health and social problems leading up
to this situation for a lot of people. It also shows how the health of the
previous generation can cause havoc on the current generation, a problem which
I'm dealing with now.

If we improve physical and mental health over the next couple of generations I
think there will be a massive shift away from this failure mode. The problem
is that those services are being cut as is the education that supports them.
So we're screwed.

Also a 4 year cycle on government before someone comes and erases progress or
long term goals instantly and just burns a mountain of cash doesn't work
either.

------
vuldin
First bit of literature I have read in second person for quite some time. I
actually really liked it as a refreshing change to the usual format. I feel
like it lends itself to a deeper connection with the subject (in this case
Tony).

~~~
shoo
tangential-second-person-links:

[http://adamcadre.ac/if/photopia.html](http://adamcadre.ac/if/photopia.html)

[http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-
static/2011/06/rule-34-...](http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-
static/2011/06/rule-34-2.html)

------
muse900
I lived in London for several years.

I've met people that were very open about scamming the system.

I once knew a person, that went to London 17 years ago from another Country.
He managed to get a not fit for work benefit and housing. His later then
'wife', they never got married but have a child together and live together,
got some illness. Never met her, he was saying that was a genuine illness and
not like his and she can't work.

So that person that I mentioned above, owned a car and a motorbike. Not sure
if those items were under his name or not. He also worked at a car mechanic
shop for money under the table.

In the 4 years I knew him, he was never caught, nor anyone went to his
supposed house to check if he is there or what he is doing.

That guy was literally skimming the system for money without any control. At
some point he and his 'wife' found out about another scam that they could run,
if she gets evicted by her landlord (both of them were getting housing
benefits, but they were presenting that they were staying at 2 different
properties while he was staying at her house) she could somehow get a free
house. So they decided to bring a dog home so that the landlord sends them
out. They got send out. She was put into a b&b with her daughter for a few
months, while he was staying at the other house the benefits was paying for
and then I've no idea if the scam worked or not.

To be very and completely honest, I did look into how I can report that guy,
just because I didn't find it fair, that I am paying taxes and there are
people like this person on the article that really need the money, and you get
those people that just scam the system. All I got from googling how to report
someone, was that the reporting system sucks so much that the HMRC won't
really do much about it.

That sort story is just there to show you whats wrong with the system in
general.

~~~
arethuza
Absolutely, I've lost friends over this very point - cheating the benefits
systems makes me just as angry as people who don't pay their taxes. But which
one is actually the biggest problem for the country?

 _" Benefits fraud costs the government £1.3bn a year, according to official
statistics, while the gap between tax owed and tax paid is put at £34bn a year
by officials."_

[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/13/benefit-
or-t...](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/13/benefit-or-tax-
evasion-row-over-the-tories-targets)

~~~
rwnspace
I've come to thinking: there's no method which makes the system fairly
accessible to all those who need support, which also doesn't allow for some
level of exploitation by bad actors. As the level of fraud is reduced to zero
by tests and policies, more deserved beneficiaries of the system are shut out.

I actually still get a bit more upset over benefit fraud than tax fraud, as
(disclaimer) my family are beneficiaries due to my brothers autism - the hours
and stress required to successfully navigate the system cannot be
underestimated. Most recipients of disability payments etc will tell you it is
a full-time job. The moral failure of benefit fraud is paid for twice - once
materially by the taxpayer, again spiritually by the recipient. For me,
another argument for the qualitative moral and social components of education
- which seems to have been stripped away of late... A rant for another time!

~~~
iMerNibor
> I've come to thinking: there's no method which makes the system fairly
> accessible to all those who need support, which also doesn't allow for some
> level of exploitation by bad actors.

Basic income for everyone would be one way, but that brings its own set of
issues and challenges with it

------
coldtea
Well, in the US you'd have already lost everything and been homeless just for
the medical bills of your mother, let alone your father later, and you after
that.

~~~
vonmoltke
That's an inflammatory mischarachterization of the situation in the US. I'm
not saying it doesn't happen, but it is not common enough to qualify as a
"would".

~~~
coldtea
Not common enough? It's the most oft-heard story, and the most common
complaint about the health coverage system there. A single accident/illness
can deplete your savings account and/or send you homeless. Heck, I personally
know people were that happened, and I don't even know that many people there.

Here's how common it is:

(...) Nerdwallet estimated that 57.1 percent of U.S. personal bankruptcies are
due to medical bills, making it the leading cause of the financial calamity
that often precedes homelessness.

Although the tipping point is often the loss of a job, sickness or injury
often precede it. Sickness and injuries make holding a job difficult, which
leads to income declining and homelessness for those without a safety net. Due
to the mostly employer-based health insurance coverage system in the U.S., no
job means no health insurance. The combination of unemployment and poor health
can then lead to financial ruin.

[https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/how-
hea...](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/how-health-and-
homelessness-are-connectedmedically/458871/)

I just returned from the annual conference of the National Health Care for the
Homeless Council, where the link between medical bankruptcy and homelessness
was made more clear than ever. (...)

Illness and medical bills were linked to at least 62.1% of all personal
bankruptcies in 2007. Based on the current bankruptcy filing rate, medical
bankruptcies will total 866,000 and involve 2.346 million Americans this year
– about one person every 15 seconds.

Most medically bankrupt families were middle class before they suffered
financial setbacks. 60.3% of them had attended college and 66.4% had owned a
home; 20% of families included a military veteran or active-duty soldier.

78% of the individuals whose illness led to bankruptcy had health insurance at
the onset of the bankrupting illness; 60% had private insurance.

69% of debtor families had coverage at the time of their bankruptcy filing;
60% of families had continuous coverage.

[https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2009/6/28/747432/-](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2009/6/28/747432/-)

------
DanBC
Here's the book of rules used to make decisions.

[https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/decision-makers-
gu...](https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/decision-makers-guide-staff-
guide)

Have a look around it. Especially, have a look at the page counts.

~~~
peshpesh
Wow... their Decision Maker's Guide [DMG] is huge...

    
    
      DMG Vol 1 Ch 1: Principles of decision making and evidence, 70 pages
      DMG Vol 1 Ch 2: Claims and applications, 114 pages
      DMG Vol 1 Ch 4: Supersession, suspension and termination, 148 pages
      DMG Vol 1 Ch 5: Work-focused interviews, 188 pages
      DMG Vol 1 Ch 6: Making appeals and staying, 123 pages
      DMG Vol 1: Amendment 54, 72 pages
      DMG Vol 1: Amendment 53, 92 pages
      DMG Vol 2 Ch 7 Part 1: Common subjects [070000 to 070899], 188 pages

------
downvote_me
Reminded me of Daniel Blake
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5168192/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5168192/)

~~~
fastball
The penultimate paragraph mentions that film.

~~~
mendelk
Indeed. I heartily recommend watching it.

------
javajosh
Government everywhere has a massive usability problem. Ignore the policies
themselves, ignore the values they represent, the relationship between citizen
and government should be easy and coherent. The solution here is, actually,
better software.

It's the difference between the law and the way it is enforced. If
surveillance capitalism has taught us anything, it's that people will put up
with almost any policy as long as it's easy. We should use this knowledge to
build interfaces to government programs. Indeed, I foresee a time when one's
smartphone keeps all your data, and a "government program" is literally a
program that runs on your phone and lets you know, proactively, if you are
eligible, and enrollment is one click away. We can and should incrementally
approach this goal in all our work.

------
jamiegreen
Time for UBI?

------
labster
So you read this story. It's entirely written in the second person. You get
annoyed by that, because the story isn't really about you, it's about someone
else. You keep reading anyway. You are appalled by the complexity of the
social safety net and all of the needless bureaucracy, and how this makes
people including you more vulnerable if something goes wrong.

~~~
duncan_bayne
In fairness, I've known a number of English people who tell stories exactly
like the author did in this case. It feels more authentic - I can imagine the
subject of the tale speaking in exactly the same manner.

Nah'mean? You pick up a book, see, and it's all written like the author's
telling you how it happened. Gets under your skin, right? Makes it more
personal somehow. You read some more, and you get sucked in, lose yourself
like.

~~~
dm319
Yes, it's an East-London working-class style.

------
jarl-ragnar
All very lamentable but you read it and get a sense of someone who is largely
passive and to whom life happens. Where's the sense of ownership and shaping
your own destiny?

~~~
dm319
'lamentable' is such a passive word to describe someone's life becoming a
living hell and ruin. Not everyone is able to organise their life, not
everyone is clever or successful, and certainly most people do not shape their
own destiny.

The question is what do you think is ok to happen to people like this? Are you
ok with this happening to people in your community? For some people the anwser
is 'yes'. Those people might be selfish, or uncaring. Maybe they lack empathy.
Maybe they don't believe it is happening. Even if they are selfish, they'd
also have to believe the chance of this happening to them is going to be very
low.

~~~
jarl-ragnar
I guess I'm questioning the spin that the BBC article put on this. And no I'm
not ok with this happening to people. However, there were opportunities where
he could have helped himself - exhibit better judgement on who he chose to
drink with, thus avoiding the stabbing; - understand that the change in
benefit payment is making it his responsibility to pay the rent. Let's face it
he must have noticed the increased payment to him when that first rent cheque
landed in his account.

Living in the UK and being subjected to this sort of "journalistic" output
from the BBC day-in-day out, I read it as a propaganda piece by the BBC
designed to support their agenda.

~~~
dm319
Not everyone is capable of keeping up with modern life, being responsible for
bills, payments, admin, forms etc.. particularly if it is made deliberately
convoluted, or if there is a concurrent medical issue.

