
20,000 Nations Above the Sea: Is floating the last, best hope for liberty? - rglovejoy
http://www.reason.com/news/show/133865.html
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philwelch
The thing that amuses me about anarcho-capitalism is that the state seems
vitally necessary for capitalism to work. Without a powerful government
institutionalizing and enforcing property rights, markets don't work (cf.
Hernando de Soto).

In anarchy, you might have one voluntary "enforcement agency" trying to
enforce anarcho-capitalist property rights, but an entirely separate voluntary
"enforcement agency" trying to enforce a socialist conception of property
rights, and various other gangs just mucking shit up.

The only sustainable form of capitalism-in-the-large requires government. At
this stage, it probably requires fiat currency, vast amounts of land,
urbanization, and serious attention to environmental concerns as well. (By
"sustainable" I mean in every sense: in terms of resources, ecology,
economics, and technology.)

I used to be a libertarian. I'm still in favor of small governments and market
economics, but I'm far more pragmatic about it. And I have no interest in
trying to build some aquatic libertopia.

EDIT: Heh, some good parts.

"tight communal living can be stressful, but residents of places such as
Antarctica stations already find a way to muddle through"

Tight communal living is a little collectivist for the target market here, eh?

"Why not just do it: build a version of the world you want to live in. Then
you get to live in it, regardless of whether anyone else is convinced it’s
proper or makes sense."

For most people, the world we want to live in has a lot more to do with
weather, landscape, profession, and community than it has to do with politics.
California's politics are pretty crap, but it's still a popular place to live
because everything else is pretty nice.

~~~
laut
Isn't it ironic that the state as an enforcer of property rights is also a
violator of property rights?

Why do you need fiat currencies? Gold has been around as a currency for longer
than fiat currencies backed by nothing.

~~~
philwelch
"Isn't it ironic that the state as an enforcer of property rights is also a
violator of property rights?"

Indeed. I don't see any hope for having a non-state enforcer that's anywhere
near as effective though, since there would also be a lot of non-state Robin
Hoods running around getting into gun battles with any non-state enforcers.

"Why do you need fiat currencies? Gold has been around as a currency for
longer than fiat currencies backed by nothing."

Gold was backed by fiat just as much as paper money. The fact that it's useful
for noncorrosive electrical conductors and dental work had nothing to do with
its suitability as a currency--it's just as arbitrary as cloth-paper
renderings of dead presidents. It is, however, rather difficult to control.
This has benefits and drawbacks.

Going back to a gold standard would (in the case of a big country) price gold
out of the market for any other purpose. In the case of a small country,
anyone could screw you over by selling gold reserves (but even big countries
would be vulnerable to this). There are also impacts on lending and other
business activities that mean that, in a competitive climate, a deflationary
currency would have problems competing.

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tc
This isn't about anarchy; it's about competition. The thing to keep in mind
about governments is that people tolerate their abuses because they provide
certain services (protection, property and contract enforcement, etc).

The fundamental idea of Seasteading is that land creates bad governments
because the cost of changing providers is prohibitively high. So you end up
with a monopoly provider over a certain area that generally becomes wildly
inefficient and corrupt (in the sense of institutionally violating the rights
of individuals).

No one in the libertarian movement denies the need for someone or some group
to provide the services of personal and property right protection, "rule of
law," contract enforcement, and whatnot, but if you use the same creativity
the people here would apply to any other industry, you clearly see that there
must be a better way than what we have now.

That's all anyone is looking for.

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russell
I saw the movie Waterworld and I dont think I want to live that way. I've
become quite fond of trees, mountains, open spaces, and long hikes without a
lot of people around.

Anarchy sounds pretty silly to me. Friedman already says they will need police
to make sure they aren't harboring terrorists. Sounds like laws and government
to me. Building codes? I would think you would need those on a floating
community. Maybe a fire department too. Probably like a community maintenance
fee. Sounds like a tax to me. What do do with those citizens who cant care for
them selves, the sick, the mentally ill, the young, the unskilled? Row them to
the mainland ald let some government care for them?

~~~
ModelCitizen
I don't believe that Friedman is pushing anarchy explicitly, at least not with
his seasteading project. Instead, I see it as applying a startup model to
governments, where people are free to form a government any way they please.
It allows people to choose which government they prefer.

Theoretically, I like it. But it's a logistical nightmare.

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zacharypinter
"The First Annual Seasteading Conference, held in October 2008, draws about 50
people to an Embassy Suites meeting room in Burlingame, California. Most but
not all of the attendees are male libertarian Americans in the computer
industry."

For some reason this made me smile.

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tophat02
I like this idea, simply because the world needs a place for radicals to be
radical. Sure, there may be a lot of crazy floating cults, but there will
probably also be some great advances from societies free of today's
regulations and taboos.

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dkokelley
As much as I believe in economic liberty, societies need social contracts that
state what behaviors are considered unacceptable (murder, theft, etc.), a
system to modify that contract, a method of enforcing that contract, and a way
to pay for that enforcement.

What I just described are laws, lawmakers, law enforcement, and taxes - the
fundamentals of a government. Living on a floating island nation isn't about
living in anarchy, but about restricting government to its basic elements and
allowing as much economic freedom as possible with said government.

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TrevorJ
Besides the human-nature problems (Even tiny fiefdoms suffer from the
corruption of leadership, etc), you have to basic issue that if history is any
indication, eventually your colony will come under the thumb of one nation or
another if it grows large enough to warrant attention.

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huherto
Interestingly, we worry about conquering space but accordingly to the article
we are still a long way to colonizing the oceans. It seems that this is really
the next frontier.

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sfg
Whether this works out or not I love the concept. Attempting to hack the
nature of government by changing the incentives it faces.

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nradov
Those clowns will be crying for a Coast Guard rescue as soon as one of their
boats springs a leak.

