
Edward Bernays and the birth of public relations (2015) - haltingproblem
https://theconversation.com/the-manipulation-of-the-american-mind-edward-bernays-and-the-birth-of-public-relations-44393
======
staticautomatic
Bernays' work is certainly important but I think the amount of credit he's
typically given for the idea that propaganda could be wielded in peacetime is
undeserved. That distinction really belongs to Walter Lippmann, who had begun
formulating the idea 5-10 years earlier and articulating it in Public Opinion
(1922) and The Phantom Public (1925), well before Propaganda (1928).
Propaganda was really more of a formalization of something that was already
understood to exist.

~~~
seagullz
Spot on. Besides, W. Lippmann was apparently a lot more sophisticated with
capacity to influence wider circles of intellectuals and mandarins. The title
of Edward Herman & Noam Chomsky’s book “Manufacturing Consent” was borrowed
from Lippmann’s writing where he was making the case for the elites to manage
the perception of the meddlesome public.

~~~
staticautomatic
Yes. However, I don't think it's accurate to characterize Lippmann's
assessment of the public as "meddlesome". It's true that he was an elitist,
but Lippmann's brand of elitism stemmed from the empirical observation that
governing a large population is clearly too complex for even a representative
democracy to do well (and is certainly more difficult than proponents of
democracy are willing to admit, if not impossible). Unlike most forms of
elitism, his view of the public as incapable of governing itself was not
rooted in ideas about their moral inferiority but in the acknowledgement that
it just isn't functionally possible for them to run the show. This observation
led to three conclusions (which IMO are correct): 1) That democracy at scale
always regresses to partisanship, 2) The idea that "the people" actually
govern themselves in any real democracy is largely a farce, and 3) That a
system of "representatives" and bureaucrats running the show is itself
elitist.

~~~
tehjoker
I think it is very easy for people living in the US to tacitly accept these
very dangerous assumptions given the state of our democracy. However, I would
posit that the degradation of our democracy is due in part to elite acceptance
of the idea that the people are either too dumb or physically incapable of
governing themselves and thus governing for their own benefit.

I would strongly push back on these assumptions. The democratic structures
outlined in the US constitutions are flawed by design and leads to the
specious conclusion that democracy is impossible. Mass participation in the
democratic process, smashing old structures, and reconstituting new structures
will allow democracy and the public to thrive.

~~~
staticautomatic
These are not "assumptions" about "the degradation of our democracy". They are
factual assertions about the structure of democracy as a system of government.

~~~
neuro_image3
I encourage you to listen to this podcast: Radical institutional reforms that
make capitalism & democracy work better, and how to get them

[https://80000hours.org/podcast/episodes/glen-weyl-
radically-...](https://80000hours.org/podcast/episodes/glen-weyl-radically-
reforming-capitalism-and-democracy/)

~~~
freejazz
I'm not sure what that would add when his point is that if people were
anywhere near rational about this, there would be no need for such a podcast
because these would already be features of our democracy, demanded by the
people.

------
spondyl
Hah! Funny, I was just talking to my flatmate yesterday about Bernays :)

+1 on the recommendation for Century of the Self by Adam Curtis.

There's a snippet in there about how Bernays was brought in during the
creation of easy bake goods ie add 2 eggs and some butter to make some fudge
(as I did yesterday)

Anyway, they initially tried to just have no ingredients required but during
trials with housewives, found they felt like imposters who lacked agency
during the baking process.

The solution? The baker adds one egg, which isn't included in the ready mix
ingredients

------
bmwracer
"The Century Of The Self" by Adam Curtis is a great documentary series on
Bernays and the PR industry he invented. Gets scary towards the end when you
realize that mainstream political discourse is now managed using the same PR
methods that took over the business world a generation before.

~~~
aspenmayer
Great recommendation. His newest long work "HyperNormalisation" (2016) [0][1]
is even more timely and covers PR in a modern context, and explores how it
fits in with modern hacktivism, international proxy wars, warlords current and
former, Occupy movements and Arab Spring, and he even manages to fit in the
Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test, Barlow's Declaration of the Independence of
Cyberspace, and early phreaker culture icons Phiber Optik and Acid Phreak.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation)

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh2cDKyFdyU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh2cDKyFdyU)
(full 166 minute documentary)

~~~
nosuchthing
Here's a better source for Adam Curtis's series:

[https://thoughtmaybe.com/by/adam-curtis/](https://thoughtmaybe.com/by/adam-
curtis/)

    
    
      The Century of The Self

[https://thoughtmaybe.com/the-century-of-the-
self/](https://thoughtmaybe.com/the-century-of-the-self/)

    
    
      HyperNormalisation

[https://thoughtmaybe.com/hypernormalisation/](https://thoughtmaybe.com/hypernormalisation/)

    
    
      All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

[https://thoughtmaybe.com/all-watched-over-by-machines-of-
lov...](https://thoughtmaybe.com/all-watched-over-by-machines-of-loving-
grace/)

    
    
      The Power of Nightmares

[https://thoughtmaybe.com/the-power-of-
nightmares/](https://thoughtmaybe.com/the-power-of-nightmares/)

    
    
      It Felt Like a Kiss

[https://thoughtmaybe.com/it-felt-like-a-kiss/](https://thoughtmaybe.com/it-
felt-like-a-kiss/)

~~~
aspenmayer
Nice set of links. Do you know much about the site thoughtmaybe.com? Seems
interesting but I am always wary of sites like these with subscription links
and unclear provenance of the videos they use.

For what it's worth, here are some links to Adam Curtis videos on the Internet
Archive and a bonus link to Curtis chatting with the director of the Dick
Cheney biopic "Vice," Adam McKay.

[https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Adam%20Cur...](https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Adam%20Curtis%22&and\[\]=mediatype%3A%22movies%22)

[https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/jan/18/adam-curtis-
and...](https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/jan/18/adam-curtis-and-vice-
director-adam-mckay-on-how-dick-cheney-masterminded-a-rightwing-revolution)

~~~
nosuchthing
You're wary of sites with opt in email list subscription links?

From the site header ABOUT page:

[https://thoughtmaybe.com/about/](https://thoughtmaybe.com/about/)

"Thought Maybe is a 100% independent, autonomous, not-for-profit, self-
directed project that exists to inspire action on a whole bunch of issues
surrounding modern society, industrial civilisation, globalised dominant
culture.

This website does not use nor support corporate “communication networks” such
as YouTube, Facebook, Google, Twitter, etc. We think its important to maintain
an independent platform for publishing—insofar as it’s possible to do on the
Internet of corporate-controlled gateways or ISPs.

We run this project using Open Source Software and embrace the notion of
Creative Commons, and supportive sharing.

\--

We don’t run advertising on our site because we find it repugnant,
compromising and unwanted!

This project is entirely not-for-profit—an open library funded by a small crew
of dedicated media activists throughout the world. This freely accessible
library is our labour of love project for positive social and political
change. Even though it is a hard job, we don’t get paid.

We don’t receive any outside funds of any type, and we don’t receive nor would
we accept money from any corporate or government entities. Our vested interest
lays solely with humanity and the natural world, not this culture, not this
system.

\--

This library is independent and autonomous. It is a labour of love run by a
small crew of dedicated activists throughout the world. We have no
affiliations and are not part of any organisation or group, which means no
vested interest, which means we can publish what is needed without
interference, censorship or vetoing.

We don’t work with any commercial organisations, religious groups, political
parties, etc—we’re entirely independent and self-determined in order to remain
effective about what we set out to achieve, which is to cultivate and nurture
an effective culture of resistance to the pertinent social and political
issues outlined in this library. It is why filmmakers make films, it’s why we
do what we do to support getting them seen and acted on. Where it goes from
here is up to you…"

~~~
aspenmayer
I’m wary of “countercultural” sites run by a “small crew” not identified
soliciting emails with no privacy policy in place. If it isn’t a honeypot it’s
indistinguishable from one. Assuming it isn’t, the email list itself is
ambiguous regarding GDPR compliance. It seems counter-intuitive to me that the
intended audience would sign up for such an email list under such a cloud of
uncertainty. With anonymity comes avoidance of accountability. Why would I
visit such a site if I have nothing to gain and so much to lose from
interacting with a site whose operators have inscrutable and seemingly
paradoxical intentions?

I’ll ask more directly since I was vague before. Are you associated with
thoughtmaybe.com? I only ask because you seem to be advocating for using it
under the guise of a user or fan of the site, and not as operator or staff of
the site; to not identify yourself as staff when commenting on the site could
be interpreted as commenting in bad faith. If not then please disregard this
paragraph.

~~~
nosuchthing
The threat model you sound concerned about could easily be mitigated in
several ways. Use a proxy/VPN/TOR to visit the site, don't sign up for the
email list. Maybe use a spare email address? I'd assume the email list is just
alerts for new documentaries. News letters and email sign ups are extremely
common?

Why does this site look like a honey pot?

Paradoxical intentions? Can you clarify what by visiting a website, you'd have
"so much to lose"? That seems excessively paranoid.

I'm not involved with thoughtmaybe.com - if there were any other website
hosting Adam Curtis films, please feel free to share.

~~~
aspenmayer
My threat model is “if the site gets hacked and the user list gets leaked, who
benefits and who is harmed? Certainly not the anonymous operators of the site.
I only want for the users what the operators want for themselves.”

I do agree with your remediations by the way. It’s not any one thing that
makes me suspicious. It’s the subject matter itself. TLAs will MITM and send
you a 0day just to find a specific user if they are known to use a site so
it’s more of a concern of visiting single purpose sites or niche sites in
general as they don’t benefit nearly so much from your signal remaining hidden
in the noise of otherwise innocuous traffic to a benign url such as
archive.org or youtube.com.

Now that I mention it, it seems that the only indexer blocked by
thoughtmaybe.com’s robots.txt is the one for archive.org. Why that may be is
curious but I don’t know how common blocking that specific crawler is so I
won’t speculate as to the reasons why.

------
gdubs
There’s a Mad Men episode where someone asks Don Draper if “all this stuff
actually works” and Draper says, “who knows?” (paraphrasing).

Like many, I learned of Bernays through Adam Curtis’ documentary, “The Century
of the Self.” But many years later, I wonder — where’s the evidence that
Bernays ideas were actually effective? I love Curtis films, and I think
there’s a lot of great ideas in them — but it’s also easy to be hypnotized by
them and forget to be critical.

Anyway, would be interested if anyone’s found any research that makes a
compelling case that Bernays’ ideas actually work, and that he wasn’t just a
really good salesman for his own services.

~~~
fierycatnet
It certainly does work. It worked remarkably well. It changed the whole public
perception of war in 1917-1918. If you can find it, read "How We Advertised
America" by George Creel. Bernays was involved in that.

------
dntbnmpls
Lets not forget Ivy Lee who really founded the modern PR industry.

Ivy Lee rebranded Rockefeller as america's lovable, generous and charitable
"grandpa" by having him give money to children on camera and setting up family
controlled "charities". Which has been copied by many wealthy people since.
Most recently by Bill Gates and his family controlled charities.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_Lee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_Lee)

Funnily enough, both bernays and lee were journalists... But then again,
newspapers have always been PR and journalists have always been influencers/PR
workers.

------
axiomdata316
I first learned about Bernays from attending a live episode of "Stuff You
Should Know" in Los Angeles. The full show was about Edward Bernays. Hair nets
and Bananas both owe their popularity to Bernays. The "Stuff You Should Know"
podcast that eventually posted nicely covers all the points but I couldn't
find it on their website since iHeart Radio bought them and removed their
website.

~~~
kyuudou
Also got more women to smoke cigarettes:

More here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torches_of_Freedom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torches_of_Freedom)

Sinister! Well, great for the tobacco companies. Humanity overall? Not so
much.

~~~
carapace
He paid women to walk and smoke in an Easter Sunday parade, which to me just
seems so vile. (the whole thing is vile, but that particular touch seems to me
almost diabolical.)

~~~
kyuudou
Yes, it surprises me what some are saying positively in this comment thread
about Bernays. In my mind he's always been the epitome of evil. And that
mustache... Jeez...

This subject always brings to my mind the old "kill marketers" skit by
comedian Bill Hicks:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHEOGrkhDp0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHEOGrkhDp0)

------
wilsonchaney
"The Attention Merchants" by Tim Wu nicely covers some of Bernays' influence,
in the context of advertising and other forms of attention capture from the
19th century through present day. Can't recommend the book enough.

------
grawprog
I learned a lot of the techniques pioneered by Bernays in school. It was the
basis of a lot of our public communication lessons. I'd always assumed these
were just things that had been collectively figured out over time, I never
realized there was one person essentially responsive for spreading that kind
of manipulation.

I wonder what the world would be like if major corporations, governments and
just about everybody trying to convince people of something hadn't latched
onto his ideas and built modern society around them.

~~~
bnegreve
> I never realized there was one person essentially responsive for spreading
> that kind of manipulation.

Maybe the others have been forgotten ... Bernays was most probably at managing
his own publicity as well.

------
ncmncm
The book "Men Who Stare at Goats" (no idea about the movie) is a terrifying
look at the weaponization of the technique turned on the American public.

You have to read between the lines: most people believe the CIA really _was_
exploring use of ESP against the Soviets. Very, very few understand that it
was a successful propaganda operation against the American public. Those few
also have a clue how we were collectively convinced that invading Iraq would
be a really good idea.

~~~
AndrewBissell
Recently read this after seeing your recommendation on the Project MKULTRA
thread. Very entertaining and eye opening, appreciate you pointing me to it.

~~~
ncmncm
Thanks for the note.

I had to read the book three times before I figured out what was going on.

~~~
AndrewBissell
Do you have any recommendations for other books on the subject? I'm planning
to read "CHAOS,""Poisoner in Chief," and "Weird Scenes from the Canyon" but
always open to more suggestions.

------
hoistbypetard
Robert Evans did two excellent episodes on Bernays on his _Behind the
Bastards_ podcast.

Part 1: [https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-
bastards-29236...](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-
bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-edward-bernays-the-founding-47116977/)

Part 2: [https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-
bastards-29236...](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-
bastards-29236323/episode/part-two-edward-bernays-the-founding-47170732/)

------
vinniejames
Coronavirus has a great PR team

~~~
lowdose
I bet it was a boomer.

------
AlexCornila
[https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-century-of-the-
self/](https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-century-of-the-self/)

------
koolhead17
I enjoyed reading Edward Bernay's book title: Propaganda. Some examples
resonates so well even in 2020 with advertisement industry.

------
AlexCornila
the documentary about this [https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-century-of-
the-self/](https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-century-of-the-self/)

------
Seabiscuit
An interesting overview of Edward Bernays' life, work, and life's work
cementing his position as the creator of modern commercial propaganda is Larry
Tye's _The Father of Spin_. It's the source of a hundred little ingenious
anecdotes that demonstrate the imagination behind Bernays' campaigns, but one
of the most alarming is that of Beech-nut bacon. Here I quote from one of
Bernays' own books, 'Biography of an Idea':

"The sales of Beechnut bacon were falling off because people had slimmed down
their breakfast to a piece of toast, orange juice and a cup of coffee.[...]
Beechnut favoured breakfast habits of a century before, when people started
their day with bacon and eggs, doughnuts, pie and coffee. If the trend of
breakfasts could be reversed, beechnut, the dominant breakfast bacon, would
regain its sales. Physicians confirmed to me [i.e. Bernays] that heavy
breakfasts were scientifically desirable. The body needs food replenishment
twelve hours after an evening meal. I enlisted a well-known New York
phyisican, Dr A L Goldwater, to write to phyisicians thoughout the country for
their opinion on heavy verses light breakfasts. Physicians from all over the
country gave overwhelming support to the hearty breakfast. Six months after
widespread publicity on the survey, Bartlett Arkell, president of Beechnut,
announced that Beechnut sales of bacon had increased “enormousely in the past
half year. Nothing else did it , except the recommendation of American
doctors.”/

Bernays recounts this anecdote in such a way as to minimise the appearance
that he himself deliberately sought or bought trusted medical opinions to
confirm his campaigns: they simply 'confirmed' things to him. But while the
Lucky Strike and soap-carving contests he organised often get the most
attention - they're beautiful works of creative showmanship and inventive
campaigning - quick portraits of his work tend to obscure just how data-driven
he actually was. Rare was the PR stunt he pulled without extremely thorough
research behind him.

It's also traditional to comment that either Ivy Lee or Walter Lippmann were
in fact the 'real' fathers of public relations. One of Edward Bernays' most
interesting commentators was Jacques Ellul, whose work expands and develops
the role of propaganda in mass or atomised society. He's not well-known in the
Anglophone sphere because he published in French, but his book 'Propaganda'
has been translated into English and, despite first being published in 1962,
actually remains shockingly relevant. In his estimation, 'public opinion' was
infinitely malleable, and any political or commercial system that answered to
public opinion, without recognising just how vulnerable that was to anyone
with an agenda and a good means of delivering misinformation, was doomed. Both
he and Bernays make excellent reading in the context of modern political
advertising and 'populism' i.e. when public opinion is led or actively wanders
into dangerous territory.

------
neuro_image3
I encourage anyone interested in this topic to listen to this podcast: Radical
institutional reforms that make capitalism & democracy work better, and how to
get them

[https://80000hours.org/podcast/episodes/glen-weyl-
radically-...](https://80000hours.org/podcast/episodes/glen-weyl-
radically-..).

