

Dear Apple: I give up, WireframeApp will become open source - eduardordm
http://wireframeapp.com/post/31629741670/dear-apple-i-give-up-wireframeapp-will-become-open

======
eridius
Why do you even need a DUNS number? If you're an individual person, just get
an individual account and sell it that way.

Honestly, this seems a bit like a publicity stunt to me. Everyone loves hating
on Apple these days, and if you can tie it to "look at my new opensource
project", then BAM, it hits HN front page.

~~~
eduardordm
I opened a company specifically for this (ipad/iphone development) it was my
plan to leave my current company and build something less stressful. I reached
a point where I'm no longer interested in building apps for the app store,
apple asks too much and give us too little.

I posted on HN because most readers are also programmers and they are exactly
whom will fork the project, etc. That said, yep, it can be considered a
'publicity stunt', but you make it sound as something bad. I really just want
that those interested get in touch.

~~~
Steko
"you make it sound as something bad"

Because you've basically admitted that your post is disingenuous. The DUNS
requirement is easily sidestepped in the short term and a complete non-issue
in the long term.

~~~
dutchbrit
But it really shouldn't be an issue in the first place, right?

~~~
pretoriusB
It's not, except if you are a company. And if you are a company, you have a
lot more paperwork to worry about than just DUNS.

Plus, it helps keep out the less motivated.

------
nanijoe
To be honest, it seems these days like Apple is trying their best to reduce
the number of [small] developers that publish to the App Store. I have been
selling on the app store for close to 3 years, and in the last 6 months,
pretty much every thing that somewhat levels the playing field has been taken
away by Apple. The new releases list used to be every apps's chance to be
visible for at least 24 - 48 hrs, and if enough people bought your app, it
made its way to the top in category list, which in turn gave it visibility as
long as people kept buying your app. Apple has removed the new releases list,
and have made it very difficult for people to find the top in category lists.
The only prominent lists now, are the hand picked apps in the featured
category. I find it hard to believe that all this is not intentional. My
advise to anyone seeking to develop mobile apps right now? Think it through
before you jump in.

~~~
bennyg
Fuck this mentality. What do we, as a collective community, say to the
companies that can't mutate their business models because a player in the
field has changed things up (for better or worse)? We tell them to change or
die.

Why is this any different? So what you can't depend on a "New Release" list
anymore - do something else to get attention. That's basically a fundamental
part of our creed, as hackers and as creators.

~~~
djt
iOS is fundamentally a business, it's within their rights to do as they
please. It makes sense to make the most profit and that probably means moving
from small iDev businesses to large ones (ie SEGA etc) that are happy to spend
a lot of money pushing their apps.

I agree with you though and I think the hackers will move elsewhere. Im
excited to see if people move across to android etc for exactly this reason.

iOS will taper off eventually but Apple will milk every cent before that
happens.

~~~
flyinRyan
Why would a developer move to Android? Even today it's harder to get sales on
Android. I would expect devs to move to the web or possibly make a bet on one
of the other platforms.

~~~
djt
I'm saying that eventually Android and other platforms will grow to match or
exceed the spends of iOS customers.

If it were me doing it now, I would develop for iOS because thats where the
money is at the moment. Having said that, you need to deal with the hoops that
this developer is talking about. To my mind that is just part of doing
business though.

~~~
pretoriusB
> _I'm saying that eventually Android and other platforms will grow to match
> or exceed the spends of iOS customers._

Android playing with low margins has so far just resulted in it wining a huge
share of the demographic that doesn't buy many apps and don't much care for
smartphones anyway.

The App Store can probably be more profitable than Android apps even with 1/10
the users -- as long as those are the right users.

Not sure. It's been thirty years since the "desktop PC" market and Apple still
commands the majority of the profits from personal computers sold.

(Lots of techies and tinkerers also choose Android for it being more "open",
but those are an insignificant minority that doesn't mean anything money
wise).

------
teh_klev
"and was told I need to wait another month"

"The source code will become public as soon as all drawing tools (those white
boxes on the tool bar) are functional. This should take some days (around
20-40 LOC per tool) I’m also trying to clean some some mess (lots on unused
assets, etc)"

I may have read this the wrong way, but it sounds like your app is incomplete
and you've got at least another 20-30 days development to get things feature
complete and thoroughly tested. Would Apple even accept the app to the App
Store in it's current state?

If it was me I'd have plugged away at the red tape during those 20-30 days of
development before chucking the towel in.

~~~
eduardordm
I stopped the development when I was told to wait (nov 26th).

Those are just scripts that render objects, the app is fully developed. In
fact, they are PDFs drawn in adobe illustrator and just added to a JSON file.
The lines of code are just stub classes.

~~~
benatkin
It might be fully programmed but it isn't fully developed. Development
includes more than just code.

------
vtail
Why this is even on the front page?

Someone who doesn't have patience decides that selling apps for money is not
for them. Fine.

Entrepreneurship requires a lot of hard work and patience. You need to be
resourceful.[1] Big news.

1: <http://www.paulgraham.com/relres.html>

~~~
ruswick
Evidently, people tend to congregate around posts that bash Apple or decry
some flaw with the system around which many people spend their time and money.

It doesn't need to be substantive or revelatory to be on front page; it just
needs to be sensational and attractive. It should be no surprise considering
the shit that passes for "news" on most blogs and lesser publications.

------
ary
Was the "GO TO HELL" really necessary? Frustration is understandable, but what
do you gain from abusing a customer support person at a large and influential
technology company and then vanity posting it to the internet?

Let's say the recipient of your "Dear Apple" email decided to forgive and
forget; what you've got left is an announcement to the rest of us about your
inability to be civil under stress. Temporary relief aside it pays to be
polite. Even on the internet.

~~~
eduardordm
Yeah, I think I went too far.

But believe me, this came to the point where I almost cried of anger. The
sentiment of powerlessness is strong.

~~~
djt
Probably a good lesson there in developing for walled garden environments.

------
rjsamson
This was posted a little while back and outlines the process for getting a
DUNS number free, within 5 days:
<http://blog.metamorphium.com/2012/12/03/apple-duns/>

~~~
apike
The process described only works in the US. Internationally, you need to
contact DNB and go through the multi-week horror. Eduardo appears to be in
Brazil.

~~~
verelo
In Canada ours took several weeks. Luckily we prepared the submission ahead of
time and discovered this was important, so we had one by the time we were
ready for submission.

Having said that, the submission process didn't explain what a DUNs number was
important for and it seemed like a weird thing to need...i share the
frustration.

~~~
MrSane
Interesting -- I am from Canada and AFAIK, even as a Canadian business, you
can legitimately submit through the DUNS "US Government contractor" form for
free.

I was stuck last year with a tight deadline for one of my enterprise apps
(which needed the DUNS for me to publish) and I used this method; it cost me
nothing and was complete within a few days.

------
k-mcgrady
The DUNS number is nothing to do with Apple, it's all handled by a separate
company and something used internationally by many companies, not just Apple.

1\. Why don't you just register as an individual and then convert the account
to a company one once you get your DUNS number? 2\. Why is it taking so longer
to get the DUNS number? I registered my business with the government then
applied for the DUNS number and got it instantly via email[1].

[1]<http://www.dnb.co.uk>

~~~
eduardordm
In every country they have a branch, each with different prices and delivery
times. In Brazil I was asked 60 working days for the free service.

~~~
barredo
So it's Brazilian bureaucracy the one stopping you right? I'm just curious

~~~
eduardordm
D&B Brazil, yes.

~~~
sbuk
So why is this Apple's problem again?

------
lessnonymous
I don't see what problem you're solving by open sourcing, therefore this is
just a misguided publicity grab.

* The "open letter" goes from addressing Apple to addressing potential developers.

* What does open-sourcing give you other than people to help you write code for free? You still can't put the app on the app store and therefore can't release it to users.

You can get it on third-party app stores instantly already.

I don't see what problem you're solving by open sourcing, therefore this is
just a misguided publicity grab.

If this hiccup is going to stop you creating new things, you're not going to
get far.

~~~
eduardordm
The problem itself (taking too long to publish the app because of duns number
requirement) can't be solved without waiting (or money), really.

I'm not really solving any problem by open sourcing it, but as I give up
developing for the app store my idea is to open source it, build a small group
of developers, find someone smarter than me to work with.

I don't think selling apps on the app store is a viable source on income for
small developers right now. Yes, we hear a lot of success cases, but the
number of failures are enormous.

I created! I'm just giving up selling it.

~~~
terrywilcox
It's best that you give up now. The app submission and approval process also
requires patience. As do all the stupid users with their stupid questions and
stupid one star reviews because they don't understand how it works.

And the paperwork around income statements, balance sheets, depreciation, and
taxes is horrible. Business licenses, legal documents, blah blah blah.

Like I said, it's best that you quit before you even get to the really
frustrating stuff.

------
tomasien
I totally agree, the DUNS number thing is insane, but you can release the app
as an individual without a DUNS ID number.

------
socialist_coder
Why not just team up with a publisher? They submit the app using their Apple
ID, they help with marketing, reviews, etc. They get a cut of the profits, but
it sounds like it would be worth it in your case.

~~~
jonny_eh
I guess if it comes down to that, we're now back to the bad old ways of
publishing software, what a bummer.

~~~
Firehed
Middle men only exist when they add value to the equation, except in extreme
circumstances. People that want to do everything themselves can do so, but
they may not have the resources (time, skill, or money) to be effective at all
that stuff that would otherwise magically happen. I just submitted my first
app to the App Store on Sunday (yay, review time!) and as I was doing so
realized there was a ton of stuff I had never really considered.

------
nathanpc
Your plan is to just throw this on GitHub and hope for the best? If it is you
should definitely consider waiting for the DUNS number, the amount of users
you're going to reach in the App Store compared to on GitHub is just enormous,
also your app looks great and I would buy it for sure, but I would compile it
myself because of the effort it would take.

------
rex_gsd
Don't feel too down. The first time I wrote a major software business project
for myself I saved up $50k (To cover rent, living and utilities), resigned
from work and spent a year developing it. I ran out of money and it never sold
very well and I definitely am yet to recoup anywhere near the costs of
development but eventually I realised while I'd not gained any financial
benefits I had picked up some very good skills as a web developer which were
in great demand on the local jobs market. I started that year knowing no
javascript and very little html, css or other web technologies.

With the new skills I was able to land a great job as a web developer and am
always working on side projects. Even if Apple have screwed you over, don't
get disheartened ... they can't screw you out of the skills you've learnt;
they're invaluable. Keep that in mind when you're feeling down.

------
Foomandoonian
I'm always sad when people treat open source as a dumping ground for
abandoned/old/unprofitable projects. The rest of my sympathy went away when he
misspelled 'substantial' and signed off with an all-caps 'GO TO HELL'. Classy.

I'm probably just a snob.

~~~
eduardordm
You are not a snob.

But, make no mistake, this is probably a profitable project. In fact, I was
planning on making a living out it! I promise I'm not just dumping this

I misspell a lot, sorry, english is not my first language (not even second,
actually). Normally I use a spell checker, somehow that passed.

Yep, the e-mail didn't end very well. My point was to try to convey rage to
the reader (crazy guy punching computer). Just like people yelling at airline
employees when something happens to their flights.

~~~
sbuk
In my opinion, your rage is misplaced and make you look as though you haven't
thought things through at all. Do you really think it is just a case that
writing an app will instantly lead to $$$?

------
joey_muller
Your app looks very cool. Best of luck to you.

------
ricardobeat
Apparently there are faster/easier ways to obtain a DUNS number:

<http://blog.metamorphium.com/2012/12/03/apple-duns/>

[http://dominikbalogh.com/post/20605187847/how-to-quickly-
obt...](http://dominikbalogh.com/post/20605187847/how-to-quickly-obtain-d-u-n-
s-number-for-ios-enterprise)

Though, individual accounts don't require one - why did you _need_ an
enterprise account for a standard app (no enterprise installs)?

~~~
eduardordm
DUNS number is now a requirement for all companies, not just enterprise
deploys.

Methods above won't work on Brazil, you need to actually call them to request
the number. (They send you a .xls to fill out).

~~~
ricardobeat
The question was why you'd need a company account instead of an individual one
- I see you have already answered that elsewhere.

The second link (.de) seems to offer registration for Brazil, though I haven't
done that myself.

------
niggler
I remember Remy Sharp complaining about apple taking too long, resulting in
<https://github.com/remy/jsconsole-iphone>

------
Yahivin
You can still release it to the app store later if things come around!
Hopefully sharing the code will improve the quality of the app as well as
inspire others.

------
stewie2
how long do we need to wait before apple approves an app? I'm about to ship
mine. I heard it used to be 2 weeks, isn't it?

~~~
bennyg
I had an update get pushed in 4 days (two Saturdays ago till the Wednesday
after), and just submit a new app this Saturday.

For those interested, here's a shameless plug: <http://subvertapps.com/HN> \-
it's a HN reader with, what I think, is the best UI on the App Store for it.

Edit: I should say it's about to come out. Once Apple accepts it. This is more
of a sneak-peek.

~~~
dolphenstein
Already have a HN reader app. My browser.

~~~
bennyg
I assume you take your desktop and monitor on the subway with you too, right?

;)

I made it for me, then decided to hell with it, I'll submit it so others can
read stories/comments too.

~~~
sbuk
No, but my phone has a more than capable browser.

------
zbruhnke
I wrote a blog post about how to get around this here:

[http://www.zachbruhnke.com/how-to-get-a-duns-number-for-
free...](http://www.zachbruhnke.com/how-to-get-a-duns-number-for-free-today)

its currently somewhere on the New page, upvote it if its useful

------
itsnotvalid
I guess you may try the news:yc way, open source it _and_ sell it in App Store
at the same time.

~~~
billforsternz
Can you elaborate on why you call this the news:yc strategy ?

------
farabove
Lame, You are mostly doing something wrong. When I needed a DUNS here in
Norway it took me less then 48 hours at no cost, I just went to this site
<http://fedgov.dnb.com/webform>

------
interpol_p
As mentioned by eblade — could you have simply used this to get a DUNS number?

<https://developer.apple.com/ios/enroll/dunsLookupForm.action>

------
ndesaulniers
Please, put your creative talent to good use on the web. Break free of the
walled gardens that snarl and entrap you!

------
danso
> _I’ve been building this application for longer than I would like to admit.
> It looks nice. It is incredibly fast. It’s useful (I’ve been using it a
> LOT). I learned Objective-C while building it. It will never be a hit but
> some people would definitely pay the 2,99 USD I was planning to sell it
> for._

The roadblocks you faced are just silly...but at least you got something out
of it (learning Objective-C, the respect of other hackers)...I always try to
have a Plan B for any mini-project I work on.... Plan A is that people like
and use it. Plan B is I learned a technology/library that I hadn't used
before. (sometimes I switch the priority of those two things around).

Hopefully your continued tinkering and exploring gets you a more satisfying
job.

------
visualR
So now HN is upvoting whiners and quitters?

~~~
sbuk
And clearly downloading anyone that disagrees.

------
stefan_kendall
It's fraud.

[http://www.stefankendall.com/2013/01/duns-secret-startup-
cos...](http://www.stefankendall.com/2013/01/duns-secret-startup-cost-of-
ios.html)

The press department has been contacting me, but I refuse their calls. DUNS
needs to DIE.

------
drivebyacct2
If only there were another platform to develop for.

~~~
eduardordm
At first I was interested in Android, really. Mostly because I'm an
experienced Java programmer. Out of curiosity I started playing with
Objective-C and Xcode and loved it. I was also building some toys for android,
but I felt I was not learning anything cool, so I lost interest.

It was more about curiosity, really.

------
pretoriusB
> _I give up making software for you app store. Your DUNS number requirement
> was the last straw. I’ve been waiting 2 months for this number and was told
> I need to wait another month (60 working days total) unless I pay a
> substancial amount of money. So, please, GO TO HELL._

And yet tons of other developers and companies seem to do just fine in the App
Store, without juvenile crap like this.

A rant like this coming from people that have been seriously screw by Apple, I
would understand. But you don't even have the app made yet by your own
admission.

You have a half-finished app, that "you learned Objective-C while building
it".

And somehow it's the DUNS that slows down your path to world domination and
profit?

Why do you need a DUNS in the first place? An individual doesn't need one, and
a company knows better than to blame another company for something a THIRD
company handles and that even the government makes a requirement to do
business with you.

------
cmccabe
Don't release it under the GPL. Due to Apple app store restrictions, GPL'ed
apps cannot be distributed that way. It's probably best to pick a BSD or
Apache style license.

Being an app developer is frustrating even on Android. Getting publicity for
your app is difficult. Margins are thinner than you think because prices are
low and your time isn't free.

My feeling is that the market is currently oversupplied with app developers
and it needs to cool down. More posts like this would be good to counter the
gold rush mentality of the past few years. There just isn't that much money in
apps, unless you own the App store.

I also don't see learning Objective C as being that useful, unless you want to
continue being an iOS developer... which it seems that you don't. Remember,
your main career goal as a developer is not to paint yourself into a corner.

~~~
eduo
Wrongo.

Him being the sole owner of the property can simply release the code under the
GPL and use Apple's license for the Store's binaries.

There are no GPL'ed apps. There is GPL'ed code. Owners of the code can decide
to do multiple licenses depending on what they want to do with it.

If I make an app I can make it GPL and then keep on developing it myself and
after a ton of changes release a proprietary app and then another ton of
changes and that third version of the code make it GPL as well and at the same
time put the binary up on a place like the App Store and at the same time put
the code somewhere else with a BSD license and then again somewhere else post
it as public domain.

It'd be a silly thing to do, but as the owner of the property its your
prerogative what you do with it.

This silliness about the GPL and the Store needs to stop. It's misinformation
all-round. A different thing is that you can't take someone's GPL code and
build an App Store app with it (unless you get permission and a special
license from all owners of the copyright).

As for Objective-C it works for other platforms and if he actually prefers
just Cocoa he still has OS X as a potential platform (plus whatever Apple
decides to incorporate in the future, if they ever expand). Your main career
goal as a developer should be making a living developing and, ideally, make
boatloads of cash. Painting yourself into a corner may, if anything, be bad
strategy; but only if it hinders that objective.

Posts like these are not good because they're misinformed and spread
misinformation. They transfer blame so they do nothing to assuage the actual
problems:

1.-People who plan on making a living developing should have a backup plan. It
may not be as easy as they think.

2.-People who plan on making a living developing and are smart about having a
backup plan should first "test the waters" before they go full-blown
corporate. Develop and release some apps as an individual. See how they
behave. Especially if they're your first apps after learning the language and
the platform.

3.-Setting up companies is hard and tests everyone's patience. This needs to
be ACCEPTED. No matter what your rush, the bureaucracy walks at its own
glacial pace. Better understand it early. Also: Frustration shouldn't equal
anger.

4.-Document yourself. DUNS is an industry-standard. It's a horrible one and
they are scammy and artifically bureaucratic (so they can sell you the
shortcuts) but the requirement it's been there for a while and there's plenty
of information on how to make it less painful.

5.-Learn where to put blame and focus your frustration. Ask around and find
shortcuts and workarounds. DUNS is not Apple and while Apple's requirement of
DUNS is frustrating it has its reasons. If selling in the store makes sense to
you financially then wait out the free registration from DUNS or decide to pay
to get it faster.

If patience is not your virtue you might not be shaped to be an entrepeneur
anyway, so Eduardodm should thank DUNS from helping him get out early, as this
is nothing compared to what was yet to come.

~~~
cmccabe
So you chose to be extremely pedantic, and point out that apps that are dual-
licensed under the GPL and some other license can be distributed in the Apple
app store. That doesn't invalidate my point, which is that if you want people
to actually be able to _use_ the iOS code you wrote, you need to release it as
something other than GPL.

"Learn where to put blame"-- yeah, put it on the people who caused the
problem: Apple and DUNS. Anything else is just blaming the victim. If
Microsoft pulled this kind of shit, there would be a shitstorm to end all
shitstorms. As it is, we have a bunch of fanboys telling you to blame
yourself. Good luck with that, buddy.

