

Software engineers tell Glassdoor that Walmart pays more than Facebook - chwolfe
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/software-engineers-tell-glassdoor-that-walmart-pays-more-than-facebook/2013/10/18/ecd3de10-37d9-11e3-ae46-e4248e75c8ea_story.html

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donretag
Walmart has a division called Walmart Labs that is based in Silicon Valley.
They are working on many complex projects, especially around Big Data.

Not sure how big that engineering group is compared to the rest of Walmart IT,
but I would assume that group is nicely paid and working on interesting
problems.

~~~
lquist
Entry level (i.e., junior dev) salaries at Walmart Labs are $100k. This is
based off of multiple data points.

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saraid216
> multiple

Approximate number? Are we talking 2, 20, 200?

~~~
lquist
2

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jcomis
Not surprised really. Wal-Mart (labs I'm guessing) knows they need to put up
significantly more cash to attract talent given the negative/boring/un-
prestigious way most people perceive the brand.

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lquist
This won't apply to everyone, but before applying to Walmart/Walmart Labs, do
remember that Walmart will ask you to pass a drug test.

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mikeash
Also remember that they are evil.

I don't toss this around lightly, but Wal-Mart is one of the very few
companies (I actually can't think of any others right now) that I absolutely
will not do business with no matter what.

~~~
bpodgursky
I don't toss this around lightly, but Wal-Mart is one of the very few
companies I absolutely always do business with because it is cheap, reliable,
and I hate going to multiple stores on a single shopping trip.

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gcb0
try costco

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felipe
Costco targets the high-middle-class families, who have the income and space
to buy bulk. And by making up in volume and high-end products [1] Costco can
afford to "not be evil".

[1] - One not very well-known facts about Costco is that a big part of their
profit comes from the high-end "novelty" stuff that they put in between the
cheap bulk items. That works for them because people who shop at Costco have
high disposable income.

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jamesaguilar
For anyone wondering why this might be, you may benefit from looking up the
term "compensating differential" on Wikipedia. The general idea is that if a
job has less appeal (because it is less pleasant or prestigious, which it's
reasonable to believe SWE for Walmart is), you have to pay more to get the
same talent.

~~~
prateekj
I was about to say the exact same thing before I read your comment. It doesn't
matter if you get more money, you will still be a software engineer at
Walmart!

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jamesaguilar
Hmm, that said, this could _easily_ just be a reflection of biases and
preconceptions software engineers have about Walmart. For all you or I know,
those guys over at Walmart Labs/Walmart Ecommerce are having a blast and
getting paid a bunch to do it.

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thegoleffect
I know a few people here who say that it is their "dream" job. But, that's
mostly because @WalmartLabs is treated like an independent startup with its
own management, ecosystem, and philosophies. The employees who can make a huge
impact and have awesome bosses are very happy - this would be true at any
company.

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BigChiefSmokem
I asked the recruiter multiple times if what Fox (the movie studio) was
offering was legit. They offered me $20,000 more than Microsoft.

~~~
logicallee
which is a huge difference. you can hire half-time maid/cook with that. Did
you take it?

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diziet
You forget to take into account the tax bracket!

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muzz
Why does that matter?

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dennisgorelik
$20K extra if you are already $100K+/year is heavily taxed. You can lose about
40% of it (social security, medicare, federal income tax, state income tax).

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United857
Isn't Glassdoor data purely self-reported? Is there any central or peer review
process on the data?

How could a reputable newspaper like the Post do a article on the basis of
that alone?

~~~
wlk
The article says the this data is self-reported: "Web site Glassdoor compiled
___self-reported_ __salary data of more than 33,000 software engineers over
the past year "

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theorique
But I bet they don't have a foozball table or all the Red Bull you can drink!
They aren't _COOL_!

Are they?

 _ARE THEY?!_

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thegoleffect
Technically, there is a foosball table and a vending machine with Red Bull.
Employees prefer Cola & Coffee though (those are free).

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theorique
Say it ain't so - Walmart has the cool and cachet of SV's hottest startups?
You mean I took a 40% salary hit for 0.00001% of worthless equity (and free
Red Bull that makes me jumpy) for _nothing_?

Noooo...

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saosebastiao
They would have to pay me more to work there too.

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malandrew
On this note, what is a good source of salary information for series A and
series B companies?

For various reasons, I would imagine that comparing salaries in large mature
companies and Series A/B startups to be like comparing apples and oranges.

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ucha
Source: [http://www.glassdoor.com/blog/15-tech-companies-software-
eng...](http://www.glassdoor.com/blog/15-tech-companies-software-engineer-
salary-revealed-glassdoor-report/)

~~~
wlk
This is article and data from last year, published: October 18, 2012

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hakcermani
What about years of experience. Was that factored in ? FB attracts younger
folk. Networking code needs a bit more experience than JS/html/css !

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encoderer
Right, but that doesn't include the extremely valuable equity grants given to
engineers at these high-growth tech companies.

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felipe
Would you call FB high-growth? At least from a VC standpoint "high-growth" is
a 10x return, and not 2.5x like FB (on a good day)

~~~
encoderer
Publicly traded companies are not measured by the VC yardstick.

Facebook is _certainly_ high growth. And even if you don't want to use the
traditional Wallstreet "growth stock" measurement, try this one out: If you
were a facebook engineer hired 1 year ago given a (relatively small) $100k RSU
grant that vests over 4 years, that grant today is worth $285,000. And today,
on your 1 year anniversary, your first 25% chunk would've vested, giving you
$72k in pre-tax income. As somebody who experienced this recently in another
"high growth" dotcom IPO, the term I'd use for that is "down payment on a
house."

~~~
felipe
You forgot to subtract the amount you "paid" for the RSUs by not making an
optimal salary.

~~~
encoderer
Interesting comment. Can't say I agree with it. There are a lot of benefits to
having an equity grant as part of a total comp package for highly paid
employees like software engineers and management. Even more so if you're
fortunate enough to get non-qual options and not RSU's.

Among other things, if that employee had insisted on no equity all salary,
he'd have POSSIBLY gotten that extra $25k a year. The guy next to him would be
the one with $72k. You'd rather earn the "optimal" salary? And sure, share
price can go down but if you don't believe a company is going to continue
building wealth, why work there?

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felipe
I also get RSUs as part of my compensation package (as any other tech company
offers, by the way). The difference is that I am not getting a pay-cut for
receiving RSUs. In other words, I am not making less for having the
"opportunity" to maybe hit the lucky jar in the future.

> And sure, share price can go down but if you don't believe a company is
> going to continue building wealth, why work there?

My point is simply that IMO FB employees are not being fairly compensated for
the amount of risk they are taking. If my future employer is asking me to
accept a salary pay-cut in exchange of RSUs, my upside needs to be more than
that. If we are talking about a revolutionary company, then sure, I'd agree
with you, but Facebook?

~~~
encoderer
OK, but how on earth would you know if FB employees are fairly compensated or
not? I have only a single data point but a friend, surely between 7 and 12
years experience in the industry, is earning a base around $150k w/ a Sr
Engineer title. Now, I have no idea what his equity grant is specifically but
a $150k base is, IME, competitive for somebody with that level of experience.
I'm closer to 15 years myself but that is more than I was making with similar
experience and title.

My take on this is pretty simple: There are very few labor markets I've heard
of that are as liquid as software engineering talent in the bay area. If
Facebook was paying below market rate salaries and trying to use their equity
grants as justification, I think they would face a lot of difficulty
recruiting top talent. Because the companies Facebook competes with ALSO have
the equity card to play. And in fact, until recently, you could argue FB
equity was not nearly as attractive as some of FB's major competitors.
Specifically, they were underperforming publicly traded competitors like
google, apple, linked in, and netflix, and they are at a disadvantage compared
to non publicly traded companies simply because the potential upside is more
limited. As an engineer you'd probably make more money in equity joining
Twitter today than FB. Facebook's stock has plenty of room to grow, but to
what? Possibly it will double in the next year, and triple in the next 5
years. Possibly. Compare that to the under-$20 strike price you'd get joining
Twitter today and it's not as attractive.

All that said, I bought a few hundred shares of FB in the mid $20's and still
see it as a good investment.

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lawnchair_larry
Glassdoor data is useless, especially if you are trying to get "averages" from
it.

~~~
foobarqux
For entry level it might be okay. Non-entry level or positions where bonus is
a large percentage of total comp it is useless. Listed compensation for non-
entry investment banking or trading is widely inaccurate.

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unfletch
Base salary isn't everything.

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ellaVader
It's just too bad they can't pay their retail employees a livable wage!

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gknoy
I believe they are transitioning to full time positions for exactly that
reason.

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redblacktree
To avoid paying livable wages?

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joyinsky
Are they rebuilding RetailLink? It is the most horrible piece of software
ever.

~~~
joyinsky
They should hire some usability engineers and shot the ones who did design
RetailLink user interface.

