
Ask HN: Is 36 too late to start into programming? - viktorino
I was a PHB in a Spanish internet company, now unemployed. I have some cool ideas to implement in the Web but have little programming background and I'm 36. Is too late for me to join the party?
======
jballanc
There was a quote (can't seem to find it right now) from a Nobel prize winner
about 10 years ago. He said that he didn't start the research project that led
to him winning the Nobel until he was 65. He was in his 80s at the time of
receiving the award, and he said that the lesson was that you're _never_ too
old to start something new.

Now, I realize this is a quaint little parable, but think about it: He started
at 65 and was rewarded around 20 years later. What do you think you could
accomplish given 20 years? That would only put you at 56, so you probably can
get another 20 year project in before your time's up.

Oh, also...while looking for the quote, I came across this in one of the Nobel
prize winner's autobiographies:

 _In 1988, I retired, kept my office, gave up systematic experimental work and
started to work on kinetic models for the overall reaction of the pump on
computer. For this I had to learn how to programme, quite interesting, and
amazing what you can do with a computer from the point of view of handling
even complicated models. And even if my working hours are fewer, being free of
all obligations, the time I spent on scientific problems are about the same as
before my retirement._

This is from Jens Skou
([http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1997/...](http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1997/skou.html)).
He was born in 1918. So he started programming at 70.

Is 36 too late? What do you think?

------
compay
One of my friends in college was a 72 year old widow who was bored and decided
to go back to school. She was in some classes on theoretical linguistics,
German and Latin with me. She had had little formal education earlier in her
life, but was one of the best students and an incredibly fun person to study
with. We ended up graduating together.

So really I think it's all a matter of your own personality and attitude. If
you're willing to work hard and are genuinely interested, I definitely think
you can do it.

~~~
mortenjorck
It seems so rare that we have the opportunity to forge relationships with
people far outside our own age ranges. What a great experience.

------
mattchew
No. I have a friend who discovered programming at around age 40. He is now ~45
and doing Ruby on Rails programming instead of his old blue collar job.

That said, I think you probably won't succeed as a programmer unless
programming seems _fun_ and _interesting_ to you. If you've worked with
programmers, but never tried programming before now, that might be a warning
sign.

Still, best way to find out is to try. Start with something small and simple
and see if you enjoy the process. Good luck.

------
mahmud
My brother is 46, has an MBA from UCLA, business owner, doesn't need to work
for anybody else for the rest of his life, grown up kids, etc. He started with
typing classes ages ago, went through the motions with MS Office tutorials ..
and now he is somewhere taking advanced Excel scripting, really funky stuff
involving ODBC connections and ETL. He is just one of those people who never
stopped going to night schools and now he is very sophisticated.

I would say go for it.

------
chegra
I started learning when I was 12, and the reason was to create Mortal Kombat
4[12yr olds don't have any concept of copyright]. I think just trying to
implement it led me to learn the language[pascal at the time]. If I was to
start over now at 26 or even 36 for the first time, it would be much much
easier and faster in terms of understanding. Although my mind might not be as
agile as when I was 12, I have experienced much more of the world now. What
this means is I can make more associations than a 12 year old. I have more
resources. I used to have to steal a glance at my sister's Dietel and Dietel
Pascal programming book. My first c++ compiler was a bootleg and had to use
web resources to learn. Kids don't have any money as an adult you do, and you
can afford to go to classes and buy books. You know more people as an
adult[only had my sister]. You can ask any number of questions to your network
of hackers until you grasp the concept.

------
Shamalama
This post struck a cord as I'm 36 and just started coding about 6 months ago.
It's been, shall we say, difficult.

My lesson 1, you gotta find others who are learning or are already doing and
are willing to chat and share war stories. In a vacuum you will quickly lose
motivation from all the minor failures that (attempting) coding results in.

My lesson 2, forget the idea that if I read this and that book I'm good to go
with this or that language. Coding requires heaps of hands on practice, and
once again, failure.

My lesson 3, coding requires a shift in brain patterns, literally. It takes a
super eye for detail and a focus I simply have a hard time maintaining. And
the question becomes, the question I find most pertinent, do you want that
shift? It's not good or bad, but I'm convinced that if I were ever to be
proficient in this field I would have to really alter my way of approaching
problems and even perceiving the World around me.

------
mmaunder
No it's not. It's never too late. Pick up a book, write your first "Hello
World!" program, and go from there. Never feel insecure about your age. Never
try to convince yourself you have knowledge you don't. Take it one day at a
time and one step at a time. Don't leap ahead. Always move from the known to
the unknown. Do what you love. Love what you do. If you love programming, it
doesn't matter how old you are, you'll get good at it and be able to deliver
value to someone who will pay you. Best of luck!!

------
ebtalley
It's taken me about 5 years to feel comfortable enough to put myself out there
to the world as a competent programmer. You have to want it, I can't tell you
how many all nighters I have put in researching problems, trying coding
patterns, etc. Find a bunch of proverbial nails and start hammering away.

speaking of all nighters.

~~~
AndyKelley
you should try sleeping. it's super-effective.

------
DanielStraight
Think about it like this. They say it takes 10000 hours of practice to master
something. You aren't too old until you don't have 10000 hours left. (That's
just 1.7 years of awake time, assuming you sleep 8 hours a day.)

------
viktorino
Thanks for the positive advice. I've decided. I want to be a programmer, I
love build things myself. And yes, we hit HN frontpage. great start =).

------
jgg
It's too late to start programming when you decide it's too late.

Pick a language. Python is easy to learn and rewarding.

Grab a book.

Write some code!

------
corin_
One of my colleagues is a sixty year old PHP developer who was a nurse in the
army until he was 45, decided to get a degree from Open University and took it
from there.

Never too late.

~~~
hobolobo
I'm 37 and studying with the Open University. With full-time (non-technical)
work and a family, the time demands can be quite high (so high that I don't
have time to work on my own project) but I think the benefits of a structured
education can't be overstated.

------
bond
No, it's not too late. I started at 37 and it took me 2.5 months to get my
first app using codeigniter. Although i had some experience programming when i
was in college, it was 17/18 years ago so i had to learn a new language and
found it relatively easy to start. I'm not the best programmer but i'm
improving day by day, and the feeling i have when i get through a problem is
really great. Reminds me of my times in college where i would be up at 3am
compiling some code on a 8086... My regret is that i should have done it a few
years before... Just do it!...

~~~
swankpot
Except for some of the details, this is my story too -- had coded at an
earlier stage in life, but gotten away from it, then returned in mid 30s.

As advancement in my first career began to look more and more remote, I had
found myself wishing I had become a computer programmer, and was frustrated
that changing course was so hard. One day about two years ago I decided that
if I wanted to become a programmer, then I should start programming. If I
didn't keep up with the programming, then ipso facto I didn't want to be a
programmer.

Two years on, with a few college classes under my belt (basically useful, but
probably dispensable), and a couple of side projects in various states of
disrepair, I've got an low level coding internship with a _very_ supportive
employer.

I'm hardly brilliant programmer, but my employer hasn't kicked me out the door
yet. The corporate environment is, at best, ok, and I would probably prefer
not to have a job at all, but I am learning a lot. As far as jobs go, I can't
imagine a better one than the one I've got. I expect that what I'm learning
will open doors in the future, and the despair that clouded my first career is
replaced by a sense of (I hate buzzwords, but here one comes) empowerment.

Most importantly, I really enjoy tooling around with my (two) side projects.
Having fun problems to work on is the best.

------
fanf
36 years, count 5 years to become proficient, it remains something like 25
years to enjoy your new expertise.

On the other hand, if it's for starting a company, perhaps that your skills
would be better used elsewhere than in learning a full new world, and so
taking a developer with you may be the best.

------
cturner
I admire you for getting in late, and knowing what life is like without it. Do
it. You might have a good experience if you do this: get python, and follow
some tutorials to set up a web server using SimpleHTTPServer. I don't know
what project you have in mind, but as general advice I'd recommend that you
avoid any and all javascript until you've got a good feel for crafting sites
on a page-by-page basis.

------
drawkbox
Programming is the man behind the curtain, your job is to build a simple
system that might solve a complex problem. The system cares none about the age
of the creator, nor do the users.

The ageism in programming is only a side-effect of it being a new industry
really since the 80s for desktop and 90s for web. You don't find many people
in any industry much older than the industry itself.

------
RiderOfGiraffes
It depends on a combination of factors: background education, personal
inclinations, innate abilities, and so on.

I'd say it's not too late, but it takes time. You can trade your existing
experience against the native wit/speed of the youngsters, but it still takes
time to learn to program.

Especially to learn to program _for someone else,_ by which I mean robust and
comprehensive enough to be used by people you don't know, in ways you'll have
difficulty imagining.

So it depends a lot on both you and your ideas. Are you willing to work as
hard as a founder has to, but on someone else's ideas? I would recommend
starting to learn to program, but floating your ideas to some experienced
developers as well with the intent of finding someone to work with. If you can
do all the business stuff, and are mildly technical, and they can do all the
deep technical, and appreciate the business stuff, then you can have a
formidable partnership.

After all, PG recommends having a co-founder ...

~~~
chegra
Doesn't pg recommends all technical co-founders?

~~~
abstractbill
No. In fact if I had to guess I'd say two founders - one business and one
technical might be the median YC company. Even if not, it doesn't seem like a
big outlier given the founders I've met.

Having _no_ technical founders is different. I believe that's happened only
once in YC, and the founders were teaching themselves to be technical people
at the time.

------
_chap
It's not too late.

A new free online school for learning Ruby is just getting started, Ruby
Mendicant University: <http://blog.majesticseacreature.com/quick-rmu-status-
update>

Get your entrance exam in by Sunday and you've got a shot at being a part of
the first round of sessions.

------
mbenjaminsmith
At 32 I was a pretty successful as an entrepreneur but deeply unfulfilled. I
dropped what I was doing to learn how to program. At 34 I'm an ok programmer
and couldn't be happier about the decision. It might be hard to convince the
people around you that you're still sane, but if you love it people will pick
up on that and get on board.

Good luck!

------
olalonde
Ideas is what matters the most in my opinion... go for it, buy a book and get
your hands dirty. Another option would be to leave the technical stuff to a
co-founder.

------
CodeMage
It really depends on what you want to do. If you just want to see your ideas
done, but don't care that much about programming itself, then you would
probably be better off teaming up with a good programmer and providing
whatever skills you have that he or she doesn't.

If, on the other hand, you feel you're really interested in programming then,
by all means, go ahead and take the plunge. However, bear in mind that it
_will_ take you more or less 10 years to become an expert. It doesn't really
have anything to do with age, it's just how much time people need to get
excellent at something.

If you feel undecided about whether you're really interested in coding or not,
give it a shot and find out. If you really like coding, you'll know it.

------
utx00
no, no es tarde. pero comienza ya. te recomendaria python o ruby son mas
faciles, disponibles y los dos tienen amplas comunidades. suerte!

------
kmanly
I started when I was 38. I feel like I've been playing catch-up for 30 years,
but I've never regretted the change. You will always have something more to
learn. Isn't that what keeps you alive?

------
edw519
_I have some cool ideas to implement in the Web..._

Programmer thinking: cool, ideas, Web

PHB speak: some, implement

If order to have the right mindset for programming, you must replace "some"
with "one" and "implement" with "build".

In other words:

1\. Is there something that you just have to have?

2\. Do you absolutely have to build the first version yourself?

If you can answer both questions "yes", then, by all means, get started. Just
start building something. Resources are right at your fingertips. You don't
need college, classes, or special training, just a burning desire to learn
what you need in order to build what you have to build.

If, on the other hand, either of your answers was "no", then you probably
should stay a manager and assemble a team/project to pursue your ideas.

Either way, age has nothing to do with it. All that matters is what you really
want. And the only one who can determine that is you.

~~~
jrockway
I disagree: I'm a programmer; I have "some" ideas and I "implement" them.
Works for me.

~~~
thunk
You should try having "a few" ideas and "whipping them up". It's changed my
whole perspective.

------
tudorw
Go for it, IMO all you have missed out on is a lot of pain and redundant
learning :)

Imagine web design never having known IE5.5 ... it's like a dream...

The power available now compared to 10 years ago to create stunning
applications with only basic programming knowledge is phenomenal. I do suggest
you skip the web and go learn a mobile platform though, android development is
a good (and free!) place to start as it's still relatively new so there are
lots of people learning and great resources available.

<http://developer.android.com/index.html>

------
Kilimanjaro
With luck you can be a lumberjack well into your 50s.

But once a hacker, forever a hacker.

------
terrapinbear
Not if you love the act of programming. You will know when you've programmed
for a couple of months. You can teach yourself but in the end you really have
to enjoy the process of programming. Helps to find out which concentration in
programming you are good at: databases, games, engineering, etc...

------
shadow
It's never too late. Since you have interest in implementing ideas on the web,
you are already on to an easier path with the many frameworks available.

Get started with building your mockups and slowly get the functionalities in
when you are finding your way with the programming framework.

------
ippisl
Both partnering with an experienced developer , and outsourcing to a low cost
country can offer a better route for development (if done well), and could
really help your ideas to succeed.

If you want to build businesses out of your ideas , you'll have enough to do
and learn.

------
unclebobmartin
36? Of course not. Try a bit of programming for a month or two. Pick up a book
on Ruby and work through a few of the chapters. If you find you start thinking
about programming more and more, then keep at it. It's never too late to learn
something new.

------
MarkBook
You may face ageism issues when you look for jobs especially if you are not
good at self promotion. OTOH you may have some great domain knowledge which
will give you an edge over the kids if you are thinking about programming in
your area of expertise.

------
jerome_etienne
focus on what you do best, if possible. aka manage/organize etc... aka find a
coder and collaborate with him.

No matter your age, to learn code is not done over night. focus on getting
things done.

my 2cts... im older than you but i started to code in early 80's :)

------
draegtun
Nope, its never too late to try and succeed.

The only requirement is that you do have mindset suitable for programming.
I've seen quite a few people struggle with programming who don't have an
inherent logical thinking cap on their head!

------
robryan
Don't see why not, depends I guess if your unemployed and need to get
employment/ make money quick or if you have time to really get into what your
doing and learn programming.

------
kazuya
No.

My grandfather got into programming in his late 70s. He was a fund manager and
just wanted to do it by himself.

Now he is dead but I keep source listings of his code.

------
j_baker
It may be too late. I'm not saying that because there's some kind of time
limit. However, why did you wait until 36 to start? I'm not suggesting you
couldn't do it. I'm suggesting that it may just be that you don't love
programming. There's nothing wrong with that.

But don't force yourself to learn something you don't love. Much better to
partner with someone who _does_ love programming.

If you _do_ love programming, then do it by any means necessary.

------
d0m
I think if you are forced to do it, it won't work. If you do it for the fun,
there's is no age.

------
iterationx
<http://tapestry.apache.org/>

------
stretchwithme
The strength of your desire is more important than the age of your brain
cells.

------
albertzeyer
Don't ask and hesitate, just do it and implement them. :)

------
rman666
Yes, it is too late. At age 36 all you are likely to be thinking about is
retirement and old age homes. That, and trying to remember your children's
names and where you left your dentures.

That's sarcasm, you old fart.

------
dman
What does PHB mean? pointy haired boss ?

~~~
AndyKelley
that was the conclusion I came to when googling.

------
keyle
Just build it. Google is all you need.

~~~
jrockway
Yeah, be sure to cut-n-paste as much code from random blogs and forums as
possible. Don't worry about understanding or thinking... Google is all you
need!

It worked for phpBB and Wordpress...

------
kunley
No.

Get yourself to build stuff and enjoy!

------
tszming
print 'No, it is never too late to learn.';

------
paolomaffei
No. JFDI

------
shareme
Ideas and work ethic matter more than previous skills.

You might get a leg up by choosing a technical co-founder that is willing to
be your mentor on your programming education.

------
dnsworks
My legally blind grandfather learned to paint when he was 70, I'm sure you can
learn to move some bits around.

------
coderdude
I've seen this question asked by many people over the years. It's never too
late for anyone to start programming. As long as you have a hunger for
knowledge and creation, plus a fair amount of patience you will learn to
program well.

If you stick with it, in a year you will have laid the foundation for your
problem-solving skills. In just a couple years you will be able to produce all
kinds of things. In 10 years there won't be a problem you can't tackle with
perhaps a little more reading online and a few hours in your favorite text
editor or IDE.

If however you don't hunger for the ability to create but simply want to flesh
out your ideas then you might consider finding a programmer (or rather, a
talented web developer) to create your sites. Either way I don't believe there
is an age in your life where you just can't figure it out.

------
zydbarreto
36 years isn't the end of the world. Have a day work to pay the mortgage and
code!.

------
jheriko
If you've owned a computer for the last six months at least, and haven't
already learned at least some programming then I'd suggest you probably don't
have a particular aptitude for it - give it a go anyway though, and if you
enjoy it then don't stop. Please don't just do it for the money though - all
the worst programmers I've met fall into that category, and none of the best.

On the other hand, web programming is exceptionally easy...

~~~
CodeMage
_On the other hand, web programming is exceptionally easy..._

No, it's not. The only thing easy in programming is writing trivial examples
and small stuff like that. Writing a non-trivial program that has to be used
by real users and is expected to have as few bugs as possible is not easy at
all.

~~~
jheriko
Compared to non-web programming, the tools are better, more well developed and
the languages/formats require substantially less knowledge. This is all well
documented.

If thats not easy, what is?

------
rbanffy
You can't _become_ a programmer. You are either born one or not. To have your
answer, you'll have to try your hand at it. Nobody can predict that for you.

~~~
abstractbill
That's a very strong claim. I'm not sure I believe it - do you have a
citation?

~~~
rbanffy
Actually, it not falsifiable. If you succeed, you were born for it. If you
don't you weren't.

The idea is that the only way he can find it out is by trying. Some of the
best programmers I have met did come from outside compsci field - biologists,
psychologists, and, yes, a business manager. The point is he must try to know
whether he can - and is willing to - do it.

And, BTW, what good would a citation do? It would be as unfalsifiable as my
claim.

~~~
cromulent
There's often examples at this address of people who successfully became
programmers but were born for something else:

<http://thedailywtf.com/>

~~~
rbanffy
There are programmers and there are people who can write programs. There is a
huge difference.

~~~
cromulent
No, I think you will find that there is not a huge difference - in fact, the
definition of programmer is one who writes programs.

I've seen the word developer used as an extension of programmer - someone who
doesn't need a pseudocode specification to turn a requirement into a solution,
whereas a programmer may be someone who just translates the spec into a
machine-readable format. Both are programmers, though.

