
South Korea Passes Bill to Directly Punish Hack Makers - kbwt
https://pvplive.net/c/south-korea-passes-bill-to-directly-punish-hack-ma
======
kybernetyk
>While the bans have stopped some players from playing, it's good to know that
they will have the weapons they need to fight back with the backing of the
Korean government.

In what world is getting a 5 year prison sentence for aimbotting a "good"
thing?

~~~
jdietrich
You'd get jail time in the US for selling steroids, making devices for
cheating at casino games or fixing the outcome of sporting events.

E-sports are serious business in South Korea. The Korea e-Sports Association
is operated by the Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism and affiliated to
the Korean Olympic Committee. E-sports have had serious problems with
cheating, match fixing and illegal gambling. We're not talking about some
niche hobby, but a significant part of the Korean economy.

I don't necessarily agree with this decision, but I think that it's unfair to
characterise it as petty or draconian. The integrity of sport is a precious
thing that needs protection. You might see an aimbot as the moral equivalent
of a patch, but a professional e-sports player might see it as equivalent to a
vial of steroids or a credit card skimmer.

There's a very fine line between cheating at a game and outright fraud.

~~~
halfdan
> You'd get jail time in the US for selling steroids,

which cause bodily harm..

> making devices for cheating at casino games

which cause financial fraud

> or fixing the outcome of sporting events.

same as above.

Cheating in an every day game does not benefit you financially or cause harm
to other human beings. If this law was limited to eSport tournaments then I
can see it being effective.

You also have to accept that not every gamer in Korea is a professional.

~~~
Alphasite_
How is cheating an a professional game ('esport') not equivalent to financial
fraud when cheating in an other professional game (physical sport) is?

~~~
detaro
The parent is saying that it is in professional games, but that that doesn't
mean it requires legislation making cheating in all games explicitly illegal.
Penalties in sports are commonly enforced primarily through the organisations
running the sport, and only some offenses even involve actual law. If you
cause someone financial harm, it's very likely already illegal.

Match-fixing in professional games is clearly fraud, that doesn't mean that
letting your friend win because it is his birthday should be prosecutable.

~~~
Karunamon
I'd personally be okay with making cheating in multiplayer games illegal (it's
purely antisocial behavior that causes real financial harm and has no
legitimate reason to exist), but prosecuting people who write code is beyond
the pale.

~~~
paulddraper
"Foul on the shot"

"Oh, that wasn't a foul"

"Yes it was"

"Are you going to make a federal case about this?"

"Yes. Yes I am."

------
stuaxo
"The punishment? A maximum of 5 years jail time or $43,000 in fines (50
million KRW). "

...

"it's good to know that they will have the weapons they need to fight back
with the backing of the Korean government. "

Is it only me that thinks this law takes things way too far ?

~~~
Benjamin_Dobell
_> Is it only me that thinks this law takes things way too far ?_

No, this law is bat-shit insane.

You don't go to jail for modifying your car, computer or mobile phone so the
reach of this law is insanely over the top.

You _are_ however breaking the law for making illegal/unsafe modifications to
your car, mobile phone; probably not your computer though.

I think it's fair to make it illegal to utilise modifications during
competitive play that involves making money - it's basically a form of fraud
to cheat in those circumstances.

However, if you want to mod/hack a game for your own personal enjoyment then
that absolutely seems reasonable.

~~~
kybernetyk
>it's basically a form of fraud to cheat in those circumstances.

Yes, and there are already anti-fraud laws to handle this case. The law sounds
more like a PR stunt to promote SK as the "e-sports capital" of the world.

I don't see any reason whatsoever why breaking a private agreement between you
and a company should be criminally punishable. There's contract law that
handles these kinds of things - and no one needs to go to prison there.

~~~
noobermin
>like a PR stunt to promote SK as the "e-sports capital" of the world.

Sounds more like it will achieve the opposite of positive PR.

------
vojant
That also means a lot of good stuff might not be legal as well. Like
unofficial servers (even for games that are not longer officially supported),
or mods?

I hope other countries won't follow this regulations.

------
sschueller
So any violation of the ToS is now illegal? Has anyone read Apple's or
Google's ToS lately?

~~~
saycheese
Yes, a violation of the terms of service (TOS) is a crime now in South Korea,
but it's worse, if a right is not provided in writing that it's explicitly
reserved; meaning if you do anything that's not forbidden, but also not
explicitly approved, you are a criminal.

~~~
mtgx
So basically corporations are directly making laws in South Korea now, which
really seems to be the final goal of a process that's already happening in
other countries, including the US. Perhaps we're really going to get those
"corporate governments" we see in some dystopian sci-fi books and
shows/movies.

~~~
hlandau
Apparently Samsung is 24% of South Korea's GDP. That can't be healthy.

~~~
Benjamin_Dobell
I guess that'd make LG responsible for around another 12%. Definitely doesn't
seem healthy.

------
halomru
Unless terms of service start getting a lot more specific, this sounds harmful
even to the gaming industry.

The status quo is that the TOS of most online games just have a blanket ban on
anything that modifies the game experience, but in practice enforce this very
selectively. Basically the players develop software and then the game
publisher decides whether the software is acceptable. An aimbot probably
isn't, something that logs the ingame chat probably is, in between there is a
huge gray area to explore.

But if the worst punishment for a misstep isn't an account ban but five years
in jail, people might think twice about developing anything for that games
community. On that front, everybody loses.

~~~
etatoby
This is a good thing.

The less programmers work for free on proprietary game systems, the more they
can work on open source games, where they don't face criminal charges and
where their work enriches everybody, instead of a specific corporation.

~~~
Karunamon
Except the programmers working in this case work directly against the
interests of the creators, and players, of those games.

So the hackers are driven away from working on Counterstrike so they can ruin
my Sauerbraten game instead? Fantastic! /s

------
saycheese
"All rights reserved" by default laws are toxic and the ultimate form of
bureaucracy.

------
except1
Allegedly this was the incident that prompted the creation of the amendment:
[https://www.akshonesports.com/2016/12/south-korean-police-
bu...](https://www.akshonesports.com/2016/12/south-korean-police-
bust-350000-scripting-operation)

------
Sir_Substance
BRB, making a games company in South Korea that prohibits Korean localized
software in it's TOS unless unless our company gets a 5% cut of profits.

------
zzbzq
Some people on the thread (most of whom did not read the article) are reacting
like people's rights are being violated here. It's the other way around.
There's been a lot of commotion lately about how online games are being ruined
by cheats and aimbots. It's impossible for game makers to keep up. It should
be illegal to make or distribute cheats for online games for the same reason
it should be illegal to shit in a water fountain: you're not just modifying
your stuff, you're ruining it for everybody else.

~~~
SixSigma
This law makes it illegal to create arseholes that can shit in water
fountains.

Not shitting in water fountains.

------
gruez
How is this law going to help when the hack developers can simply operate in
another country to evade the law?

~~~
godmodus
It might actually rejuvenate the underground community as it triages the new
limitations.

------
scotty79
I'm really opposed to making writing something a crime.

------
hatsunearu
Translation of [https://imgur.com/a/jzQQm](https://imgur.com/a/jzQQm)

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and this may be an inaccurate translation for
legal purposes. Talk to a lawyer.

Left panel:

9\. The act of creating, distributing, offering or brokering game material
[sic; note that it doesn't say software]

10\. The act of creating or distributing computer programs or instruments for
the purpose of illegal activities outlined in Article 9

Right panel:

Article 44: Punishment

Any person who meet the criteria below will be punished with prison not
exceeding 5 years or a fine not exceeding 50 million won.

------
fengwick3
A lot of people here seem to misunderstand the nature of the hacks that these
laws are targetting. The intention here is to punish those who abuse these
hacks to gain a competitive edge when playing against others, which can be
extremely sizable especially for FPSes. Professional teams also rely on the in
game competitive rankings to scout for new talent, so this abuse can have
further ramifications apart from brusing egos.

~~~
kaishiro
Isn't the intention of these laws to punish those who _make the tools_ for
those who abuse these hacks, and not the actors themselves?

------
a_c
Does it have effect on non-korean citizens?

~~~
dimva
It means you don't have to worry about any competition from South Korean
companies in the field of cybersecurity.

~~~
kybernetyk
You also probably don't need to worry about competition from SK programmers.

(My WoW account got banned back in the day because I had an instance of the
Visual Studio Debugger running while playing WoW. No, I wasn't debugging WoW
...)

------
gcb0
this raise the question of how much you want to give in order to play.

i myself am fine encountering the occasional cheater. it sucks but it's only a
game. and to be honest, sometimes its lots of fun when all honest players gang
up on the cheater on AoE2 :)

now, i won't put up with a closed code having to run as root. i gave up online
gaming because of steam, which i consider a rootkit.

and the scary thing is that I'm so in the minority that university of
California now does not even give you the option for paper tests in some
classes. you have to install a rootkit that turns your webcam on and report
back a list of all open and installed applications to their servers, while you
take a online test. and of course, no Linux support and it tries (badly,
thankfully) to not run inside a vm.

as a security expert i can run it in a vm with a fake webcam feed just fine.
but everyone else will have to be subjected to this if they want a diploma
subsidised by tax dollars. would you put up with it? the alternative is to
book time on the few computers in the lab they allow this thing to be
installed (remember, it denies vms, which is what the lab admins use to have
always clean systems).

oh, and everyone cheats by leaving open books behind the monitor. this whole
thing only serves the software vendor. just like the Korean cheating will only
serve who actually uses cheats for monetary gain. as i doubt it wasn't
criminal before if money was involved.

~~~
chei0iaV
> now, i won't put up with a closed code having to run as root. i gave up
> online gaming because of steam, which i consider a rootkit.

Since when does Steam need to run as root?

In a bit paranoid so I run Stream as a separate minimally-privileged user out
of its own home directory, but "rootkit"? Come on...

~~~
gcb0
on windows it runs as admin. never used on linux, but i wouldnt be surprised
that your low user would be denied to play counter strike online

~~~
chei0iaV
I would. I'm sure I'd there was a game that required root privileges on Linux,
I would have heard of it. Doubly so considering it apparently works well on
wine.

I don't have CS and don't have any interest in buying it, but I'd welcome
being proven wrong.

(I would be more apt to consider telemetry-era Windows a rootkit, personally
:)

------
MrZongle2
FTA: _" Based on this law, manufacturing and distributing programs that are
not allowed by the game company and its Terms of Service is now directly
illegal. That would include aimbotters, hacking programs, scripters, or
anything not allowed by the ToS. The punishment? A maximum of 5 years jail
time or $43,000 in fines (50 million KRW)."_

Five years in prison for an aimbot? This is _South_ Korea we're talking about?

~~~
Nadya
E-sports is basically the national sport of South Korea. They take the
E-sports scene _very_ seriously and this would be akin to doping in a
competitive sport which caries up to 5 years jail time and fines of up to
$250,000 in the U.S at least.

So really it's just bringing E-sports up-to-par with sports...which is already
how they treat it.

~~~
EdHominem
For _writing_ the aimbot, not for using it.

I'm fine with you being charged if you contract to not do something (steroids,
for instance) for a voluntary event, but did so without intending to uphold
your promise. That's fraud.

But me, for ripping apart some game and tying into the internals? I should be
charged because you could do something bad with it? That's just nonsense.

And what counts as a cheat? In an old game I used to _tape_ a crosshair to the
screen because it didn't have one. What if we create an aimbot from vacuum
tubes and light-sensors?

Stupid politicians, sticking their noses into things they don't understand.
The laws were already adequate to charge any actual cheater.

~~~
Nadya
_> For writing the aimbot, not for using it._

So equate it to production and distribution of illicit material?

Cultivating food isn't illegal in many areas. Cultivating magic mushrooms is
another issue altogether. Chemistry isn't illegal but manufacturing MDMA is.
Programming isn't illegal - but coding a program for a game that directly goes
against the Terms of Service of a company _is_.

Can you provide me an example of aimbotting in a multiplayer game that isn't
"bad"? What else could you possibly be doing with it?

~~~
EdHominem
> So equate it to production and distribution of illicit material?

No, that's missing the point. I know what silly legal maneuverings are, but I
know that they're self-contradictory and worthless.

If I went far enough down that rabbit-hole I could justify banning anything by
relating it to child abuse.

> Programming isn't illegal - but coding a program for a game that directly
> goes against the Terms of Service of a company is.

Sorry, but I don't consider ToS binding. Maybe on my use of the site, but not
simply on software I bought. Otherwise the word "bought" is meaningless.

Also, if they can do that then they have the ability to simply forbid reverse
engineering, etc, which is utterly ridiculous.

> Can you provide me an example of aimbotting in a multiplayer game that isn't
> "bad"?

Can you prove you aren't a nazi sympathizer? No, and it isn't your
responsibility to do so.

Similarly, it's not my job to defend aimbots.

If you want to play without aimbots, play with friends or with people who
contract away their otherwise legal rights.

~~~
Nadya
_> Sorry, but I don't consider ToS binding. Maybe on my use of the site, but
not simply on software I bought. Otherwise the word "bought" is meaningless._

Then don't agree to the Terms of Service! To connect to the servers you must
agree to the Terms of Service. Feel free to buy a copy of your game but be
unable to play it because you cannot connect to their servers (which you are
_not_ paying for). If you do not like that, then do not purchase the game or
purchase a single-player game that does not rely on servers to play on.

Also "I don't consider laws binding" wouldn't be a permissible defense. The
T.O.S is now backed by law.

 _> Can you prove you aren't a nazi sympathizer? No, and it isn't your
responsibility to do so._

You cannot prove the non-existence of something. I'm asking you to prove
something exists. You make the claim that aimbots have a legitimate reason to
be created: name that reason.

I can list ways to use a gun that don't involve killing people - hunting and
sport (skeet shooting). There are no alternative purposes of cheating software
other than to cheat just like there is no other purpose of a calculator other
than to calculate.

~~~
EdHominem
> The T.O.S is now backed by law.

Pft. Which law, where? And what provisions? It's vastly more complex than that
even where it did sneak in.

And between me and South Korea? Very little chance.

> I'm asking you to prove something exists.

No, you're asking for me to prove something to your satisfaction when you're
predisposed to dislike it regardless. It's similarly impossible.

> There are no alternative purposes of cheating software other than to cheat
> just like there is no other purpose of a calculator other than to calculate.

Which isn't actually true. It can exist just for the sheer joy and reversing
and controlling a new program.

But even at that, "to cheat", isn't damning. Even perfect aimbots aren't
perfect players and a lot of people enjoy fighting someone using an aimbot.
Personally I'd rather play against an aimbot than a camper. At least one
justifies their slot on the server.

Anyways, it's your responsibility to curate your friends list to find people
you enjoy playing with, not to sanitize the gaming population until you're
sure nobody is left who might offend you. And especially not to enforce
general purpose bans on computer exploration which this amounts to.

~~~
Nadya
Then build your own game and run your own servers and hack those. Problem
solved. You don't need to purchase their games, agree to their T.O.S, or have
any affiliation with them. The majority of the gaming community doesn't want
people like you in it which is why companies spend such large amounts of money
to develop tools to keep hackers out. If it didn't "kill" games (see: The
Division losing over _95% of the player base_ on PC due to overwhelming
amounts of hackers) then companies wouldn't care.

 _> "to cheat", isn't damning_

In nearly every other aspect of life and any other comparison you'd be laughed
out of the room for this. Go cheat at a casino? At a competition? And see
where it gets you. But for some reason it's okay for video games?

~~~
EdHominem
> Then build your own game and run your own servers and hack those.

No, hacking something you wrote doesn't make sense. You couldn't surprise
yourself, or learn anything.

> You don't need to purchase their games, agree to their T.O.S, or have any
> affiliation with them.

Even if I purchased their game I wouldn't agree to their ToS so no worries.
Nor would I have any affiliation with them.

> The majority of the gaming community doesn't want people like you in it
> which is why companies spend such large amounts of money to develop tools to
> keep hackers out.

That's what you're told, but the companies are far more hostile against cheats
in games like WoW where cheating simply means playing the parts you want
without the grind (and the inevitable in-app purchase to get past the grind.)

> >"to cheat", isn't damning

> In nearly every other aspect of life and any other comparison you'd be
> laughed out of the room for this.

No, that just shows your prejudices. I cheat at the parts of single-player
games that I find boring. If the room is full of boring rule-followers who
can't play the game of solitaire that they enjoy playing, I'd be laughing at
them.

> Go cheat at a casino?

I don't know a single person who'd be upset about that. They'd all laugh and
say "Don't get caught" but no more.

> At a competition?

Oh, are you the sort of person who likes to cheat in competitions? That is
lame.

I like bikes because they let me cheat at walking. I get where I want to go
faster. I have no compulsion to be seen to be better than you so I don't care
about racking up "victories".

But I still think it's mentally defective to pass a law preventing reverse
engineering just to let some people have their trophies.

------
seishun
It seems it's going to be just another one of those laws that technically
exist but never enforced. Unless, of course, the government doesn't like you
for some reason.

------
antihero
Governments are such a blunt instrument.

------
godmodus
Lol this planet is going to hell in a handbasket.

I want to laugh, cry, care and not care at the same time.

Can anyone tell me what sort of feeling this is?

~~~
saycheese
Sounds like Mania:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mania](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mania)

~~~
godmodus
"a “mirror image” to depression, the heightened mood can be either euphoric or
irritable;"

 _rubs chin_ seems to be a xor, though what I felt was simultaneous - maybe
shock. _rubs chin_ after some digging around it seems to be this

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance)

My brain experienced a slight shock and went a bit joker on the emotions.

~~~
saycheese
Generally speaking, self evaluation takes considerable knowledge, skill,
experience and time.

To me, the update you provided didn't add clarity, but an additional degree of
understanding what you're attempting to express.

Someone experiencing pure cognitive dissonance would not act manic, they just
realize that there was a paradox in their reasoning that needed to be
resolved.

Literally wanting to laugh and cry in series is an emotional response and to
me, sounds manic. Emotional responses are a better predictor of understanding
someone than reasoned expressions.

~~~
godmodus
Well I literally DIDN'T laugh and cry. Felt a deep sense of Sadness/panic at
the stupidity of this move. And just felt that sort of giving up,realising I
can't do shit about a country half a,world away that wouldnt heed my advice
even if it did reach it.

Must admit, it caught me by surprise that my own "are you fucking dense?!"
reaction was so strong. That all said and do done my friend, such a public
exchange should have remained a more light hearted one - and not a me possibly
suffering from a chronic psychiatric condition.

On that note, I think I'll end this,and go light a candle to lament our
collective intellectual regression, and pray that cthulhu be a merciful God
when he eventually rises.

------
kbwt
@mods: how did the thread just plunge from #1 to #12?

------
minhoryang
extremely worrying that now they have the good reasons for getting my all .exe
files :(

------
GordonS
A bit off topic, but the phrase "Hack Makers" \- is that a thing?

~~~
saycheese
Makers of a hack, that is "hack makers" \- is grammatically okay. The title is
in title case, so the capitalization of the text is meaningless.

~~~
tremon
But hacks are not made -- they are performed. It may be grammatically okay,
but not semantically.

~~~
saycheese
Yes, hacks are original performed, but some cases, especially those referenced
in this context, the hacks are made to be used by 3rd parties, most who likely
would be unable to preform the hack from scratch, much less discover it.

------
venomsnake
Just to make clear - are we sure we are talking about South and not North
Korea?

------
smrtinsert
So long as it doesn't violate a games tos, its not illegal. What's the problem
here? Seems like its targeting hack developers only.

~~~
pooper
> So long as it doesn't violate a games tos, its not illegal. What's the
> problem here? Seems like its targeting hack developers only.

I'm sorry but tos is NOT the law. We get all riled up against CFAA in the US
(I know I do) but we turn around and see this stuff go on in other countries
and say "well, they have good intentions".

Well there is a saying that the road to _the other place_ is paved with good
intentions.

Remember when Goldman Sachs effectively ordered FBI to handle a case as if FBI
was some department within GS? I don't think jail time is warranted unless
people are dying as a result of these hacks. If we are targeting commercial
unauthorized usage of network resources, slap a big fine. There is no need to
add jail time here.

~~~
smrtinsert
Well to draw a parallel, in the US if there a doctor enabling an athlete (or
group of them) with performance enhancing drugs, wouldn't he face jail time
for providing that? esports are huge in south korea.

~~~
Karunamon
No. It's not illegal for a doctor to prescribe medication. It's on the user of
that medication if they break their game's rules with them.

