
H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms - known
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21716630-not-good-argument-against-them-h-1b-visas-do-mainly-go-indian-outsourcing
======
loph
This one sentence says it all:

"The Economist found that between 2012 and 2015 the three biggest Indian
outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys—submitted over 150,000 visa
applications for positions that paid a median salary of $69,500. In contrast,
America’s five biggest tech firms—Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and
Microsoft—submitted just 31,000 applications, and proposed to pay their
workers a median salary of $117,000."

 _None_ of those salaries listed are competitive with what a non-H1B (read
citizen or permanent resident) would earn. Indeed.com quotes the average SD
salary in Seattle (think Amazon and Microsoft) as 126,000 and San Francisco at
134,000. Companies sponsoring H1B need to be held to the letter of the law --
the salaries must be competitive. The demand for H1B visas would fall if the
imported labor was paid fairly.

~~~
freyr
You're comparing the average salary of _all_ H-1B jobs (developer, accountant,
analyst, etc.) to the salary of a developer. Instead, look at the average
salaries for H-1B software engineers in 2016:

Facebook @ Menlo Park: $152k

Google @ Mountain View: $130k

Apple @ Cupertino: $154k

Amazon @ Seattle: $124k

Microsoft @ Redmond: $120

So comparing base salary alone, these companies are definitely not underpaying
their H-1B hires.

To see salaries for yourself, you can go here and filter by year to see the
latest data:

[http://h1bpay.com/companies/Facebook/cities/Menlo%20Park-
CA/...](http://h1bpay.com/companies/Facebook/cities/Menlo%20Park-CA/job-
titles/Software%20Engineer/salaries)

~~~
lowbloodsugar
So by "these companies" you mean Facebook, Google, etc, because they _are_
paying the going rate by paying $152k.

That just confirms the OPs first point, that TCS, Wipro and Infosys, with
their 30,000 Visas avg. ~$70k, are massively abusing the system.

Its about time these companies were prosecuted for lying to the government:

Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001 makes it a crime to: 1) knowingly
and willfully; 2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent
statement or representation; 3) in any matter within the jurisdiction of the
executive, legislative or judicial branch of the United States.

~~~
canttestthis
And it disproves OP's other point (the one he even highlighted in italics):

> None of those salaries listed are competitive with what a non-H1B (read
> citizen or permanent resident) would earn.

~~~
mememachine
However it still leaves the impression that H1Bs are doing more bad than good

------
planetjones
Is this disagreeing with Blake Irvine. See

[https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2017/02...](https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2017/02/09/godaddy-
immigration-h-1b-visa/%3Fsource%3Ddam?client=safari)

This is the man who refers to H1B visas as genius visas. I have worked with
many Indian outsourcing companies and while talented people do exist, calling
their employees genius is wholly inaccurate (as would be calling most software
devs in the Western world genius).

I did laugh when I read irving's original post on LinkedIn and some former
employer of GoDaddy expressed just how Mr Irving was using his H1B allocation
I.e. to get the same job done for less dollar...

~~~
kls
The problem is the incentive system.

I have never been known for my lack of directness and in given so, I used to
work with an Indian developer who was very good at his job. So one day I just
flat out asked him, I said Karthick why do a good portion of Indian developers
suck, his response floored me.

Without missing a beat he responded, look it's a misaligned incentive system.
When I go back to India the first question I am asked is how many people do
you manage. If I go on a date, it's the first words out of a fathers mouth.

He went on to tell me that you see Indian has remains of the cast system still
culturally in place and this stems from that way of thinking, but it has
morphed into changing your cast by moving up the corporate ladder. The fastest
way to managing people is IT given it's over representation in the Indian
economy. So what you have is a bunch of would be MBA's getting tech degrees so
they can do their time and make it to management. They have no passion for
technology and look at it as doing their residency for management.

Then he looked at me and said, with a laugh. Put Simply they go into IT to get
laid. Whereas I went into IT to become and American, because and Indian guy
with citizenship is John Don (he meant Don Juan).

~~~
aviraldg
As a current CS student from India, I can completely back this theory. Most in
my class are very sure they want to pursue a career in Computer Science, but
have little to say if you ask them why. A good fraction of them, every year,
end up joining consultancy firms in nontechnical roles, or (what I hate more)
in HR - and are perfectly fine with it.

Computers in India are not associated with the amazing feeling most of us had
the first time we wrote a program that worked correctly. They are associated
with a guaranteed (heh) paycheck and a comfortable life, and the quality of
the work produced in this fashion is a natural result of that attitude. The
outsourcing industry is at the centre of this idea, but it also supports a
large number of degree mills and certificate farms producing a mind boggling
number of absolutely useless "computer engineers" giving all of us the
reputation we do.

I, for one, would love to see companies like TCS and Infosys gone.

~~~
kirRoyale
Damn there are some really solid responses in this thread... Thanks for the
input

~~~
thewhitetulip
Wait till you hear the stories feom inside those three companies and more
mentioned in the article! You'll be surprised :-)

------
koolba
What's the argument against using an auction for H1-B visas rather than a
lottery? That'd maximize the tax collected from their salaries and ensure the
salaries are on par with the going rate for said workers. Arguably it's in the
interests of everyone besides companies trying to get cheaper labor via H1-B
visas.

The only counterpoint I've ever heard is " _It 's not fair for company XYZ in
low cost of living Podunk, USA because we can't compete at those high salaries
against banks / SV / expensive cities_". So what? I doubt they can compete
against the ability of TCS or Infosys to game the system and get the lions
share of the visas either.

~~~
adekok
something something _democracy_.

The country is run (roughly) on something resembling democracy and equality.
If, instead, the ethos changes to "more power to people who pay more", we give
up any pretence at democracy. We might as well just advertise that politicians
are for sale.

Which the mostly are right now, but at least they have to pay lip service to
the people. Once that's gone, the culture of the country will change
enormously. And not for the better.

See William Shirer's "Collapse of the Third Republic" for what happens to
countries in this situation. It's less well known than "The rise and fall of
the third reich", but I found it a lot more informative.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Collapse_of_the_Third_Repu...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Collapse_of_the_Third_Republic)

~~~
koolba
> something something democracy.

> The country is run (roughly) on something resembling democracy and equality.
> If, instead, the ethos changes to "more power to people who pay more", we
> give up any pretence at democracy. We might as well just advertise that
> politicians are for sale.

What's not democratic about optimizing need based upon projected tax revenue?
Are we discriminating against "poor companies"? Would you classify companies
that allow their employees to work remotely doing the same? (ex: I'm sure
Google can pay more for a remote employee than any local company in Podunk
USA).

I personally have no horse in the H1-B race. I don't employ any nor do I
intend to apply for visas. The _vast_ majority of citizens and permanent
residents in the USA are in that group as well. It's in _their_ interests to
raise the price of said foreign labor. I'd say that's very democratic and
keeping the price of it artificially low is short changing democracy.

~~~
adekok
> What's not democratic about optimizing need based upon projected tax
> revenue? Are we discriminating against "poor companies"? Would you classify
> companies that allow their employees to work remotely doing the same?

The unstated assumption in your questions seems to be that optimizing for
revenue should be the #1 (or a high) priority for a government.

If so, why not just cut all social programs? They're expensive, and the poor
people can find jobs, right?

My leaning is more towards the idea that governments should optimize for
something else. Perhaps "the greater good", however the citizens decide that.
Money is always an issue, but optimizing for tax revenue is a little to
inhuman for me to be comfortable with it.

> It's in their interests to raise the price of said foreign labor.

... to _artificially_ raise the price of foreign labor. Many companies now are
trying to artificially _lower_ the price of foreign labor, through lobbying,
etc.

And the foreign labor market is in no way free. When I worked in the Bay area,
it was well known that many H1B holders were paid low salaries, and treated
like crap. Because they wanted to stay in the country, and were willing to
accept hardship in order to do so.

That artificially lowered the labor cost, and lowered salaries. If they were
paid the same as local talent, the artificial low cost would go away, and more
local talent would be hired.

~~~
koolba
>> What's not democratic about optimizing need based upon projected tax
revenue? Are we discriminating against "poor companies"? Would you classify
companies that allow their employees to work remotely doing the same?

> The unstated assumption in your questions seems to be that optimizing for
> revenue should be the #1 (or a high) priority for a government.

> If so, why not just cut all social programs? They're expensive, and the poor
> people can find jobs, right?

Social programs aren't revenue, they're an expense.

> My leaning is more towards the idea that governments should optimize for
> something else. Perhaps "the greater good", however the citizens decide
> that.

The beauty of using something objective like salary or even a pure auction
where the USA sells the via to the highest bidder is that it's objective and
consistent. "Greater good" is a feel good (no pun intended) term that has no
objective meaning. It may make you feel better that you've provided a job to a
third-world immigrant but that doesn't mean it's objectively a good thing for
the USA. And at the end of the day the foreign policy of the USA is for its
own interests (which may align with global ones but not at the expense of USA
ones).

> Money is always an issue, but optimizing for tax revenue is a little to
> inhuman for me to be comfortable with it.

If you don't pick something objective where at least the government can get a
fair share of the money, you'll end up with outsourcing firms gaming the
system. It's the immigration equivalent of " _this is why we can 't have nice
things_".

>> It's in their interests to raise the price of said foreign labor.

> ... to artificially raise the price of foreign labor. Many companies now are
> trying to artificially lower the price of foreign labor, through lobbying,
> etc.

It's not artificial at all. It's the price of providing that same service
locally which is what the H1-B's salary is supposed to be anyway.

If the foreign labor wants to provide that service remotely, more power to
them. Let them do so. But if it's done in SF, or NY, or anywhere in the USA,
the prevailing labor rate is what should be paid. The point isn't to provide
cheap labor to firms. It's to fill gaps in the labor market (or at least that
_was_ supposed to be the point).

> And the foreign labor market is in no way free. When I worked in the Bay
> area, it was well known that many H1B holders were paid low salaries, and
> treated like crap. Because they wanted to stay in the country, and were
> willing to accept hardship in order to do so.

> That artificially lowered the labor cost, and lowered salaries. If they were
> paid the same as local talent, the artificial low cost would go away, and
> more local talent would be hired.

Well duh. That's what I'm trying to say!!

~~~
adekok
> Social programs aren't revenue, they're an expense.

That's nit-picking. Social programs are _negative_ revenue. If you want to
maximize income, you can increase income, or decrease expenses. This is grade
5 math.

> "Greater good" is a feel good (no pun intended) term that has no objective
> meaning.

"Greater good" can be define to mean that it matches societies preference.
i.e. long life, healthy life, whatever.

If only the constitution defined greater good.. perhaps something about "life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"?

~~~
koolba
>> Social programs aren't revenue, they're an expense.

> That's nit-picking. Social programs are negative revenue.

No it's not nit-picking, it's basic accounting. If you want to maximize
income, you can increase income, or decrease expenses.

Revenue impacts your top line gross. Expense impacts your bottom line net.
Income != Revenue.

To use an extreme example, if I have $1M of expense and zero revenue, no
matter how much expense I cut I'm not going to turn a profit as you can't go
below zero. Conversely, if I have $0 of expense and $1M of revenue, I can
continue to increase income by _raising_ revenue.

> This is grade 5 math.

No it's Accounting 101.

> "Greater good" can be define to mean that it matches societies preference.
> i.e. long life, healthy life, whatever.

> If only the constitution defined greater good.. perhaps something about
> "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"?

It's not an objective measure though.

~~~
adekok
> To use an extreme example, if I have $1M of expense and zero revenue, no
> matter how much expense I cut I'm not going to turn a profit as you can't go
> below zero. Conversely, if I have $0 of expense and $1M of revenue, I can
> continue to increase income by raising revenue

Show me a government with zero revenue, or a government with zero expenses,
and I'll believe you.

Until then, it's still nit-picking.

At the scale of governments, expenses == -revenue

------
geebee
The economist proposes getting rid of the rule that requires H1B workers
remain within the company that sponsors them

That sounds reasonable, but why then require that a company sponsor an
immigrant in the first place? Why not let that immigrant choose where he or
she will work?

In fact, why not let the immigrant choose what to study, where to work, where
to live, all in response to market signals?

People have posted various lists for the average H1-B salary at what they
consider top companies, like Google. $130k. Is that the salary in mountain
view?

You know, I actually think that salary is somewhat low for what a talented and
well educated person can earn in the Bay Area. Why force these people to get
hired as developers? Why make them study what google says they should study,
take interview exams on second year data structures and algorithms the way
google says they should? Why on earth should google get to have this power,
over anyone?

Let's just have immigration. All immigrants arrive in the US free, free to
choose what they will study, where they will work, how they will go about it.
They can sell real estate, install drywall, write python code, write novels,
paint portraits, or whatever they wish to pursue. Nobody owes them success,
but in the US, they should have the freedom to _pursue_ happiness as they
define it.

 _Not_ as Facebook defines it. If working as a dev in an open office so big it
has a horizon line for a CEO who says things like "young people are just
smarter" for $152m a year doesn't sound as appealing as the flexibility and
stability of working as a dental hygienist for $110 a year (roughly the median
salary in SF), then that's the market's answer.

I still maintain this - any immigrant system that allows corporations to
decide who gets to come here is flawed. Allowing immigrants to quit once
they're here would be an improvement, but it still allows corporations to
decide who does and doesn't get to come here.

~~~
steevenwee
'I still maintain this - any immigrant system that allows corporations to
decide who gets to come here is flawed.'

Corporations ARE the workforce market, which should indicate what kind of
workforce is needed. It can only go from employer to employee, not vice versa.
You can also look at that from company's perspective: You not only paid for
someone's visa but also went through all the paperwork and then the person
leaves in a month, just because he got a bigger offer. This should somehow
work in both directions.

~~~
geebee
Wow, do I ever disagree with you. I'm not a market fundamentalist, but supply
and demand are still relevant concepts here. The market would demand far more
developers at $50,000 than the market would supply. It would be the opposite
at $250,000 (maybe... there would still be a lot of demand at that level). If
corporations can't hire on there terms and conditions they offer, they need to
sweeten the pot. If I try to hire a top lawyer at 50k a year and a large open
office, people will say "uh, you need to offer more money and a better
office." They don't say "oh, there's a shortage of lawyers, so clearly you
need to have the power to bestow US residency and worker rights, and remain in
control of them, to coerce an immigrant into taking that job"!

As for the company's perspective, honestly, I couldn't care one whit. If you
can't offer competitive wages and working conditions, that means the worker
has found a higher value role somewhere else. Why on early would I, or anyone
really, have any interest in helping a corporation force an individual to
remain in a lower value job? It's a basic human rights issue as far as I'm
concerned, but you know, there's a reason human freedom and generally free
markets often go together. No, I'm not a market fundamentalist, but the
freedom choose where and how you will work seems pretty basic to me.

~~~
steevenwee
Wasn't disagreeing with that, just looking at reality. This visa was meant for
corporations to be able to get the talent they're unable to find in the US.
Not for opening US workforce market for the entire world. Thus it is one-
sided.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in the US on a work visa and would be happy to have
jobs market completely open for me.

------
throwaway251
Looking at the discussion so far - probably going to get trolled/downvoted but
here goes:

From all of the above comments - people are trying to undo only the parts of
globalization that they don't like (wage arbitrage is one of them - stop
crying!). I truly wonder what would happen if the Indians (and the rest of the
world) started treating Americans the same way the America treats them and
starts to roll back the impacts of globalization:

1\. Stop American businesses from getting favors under trade deals and
especially with sales of military equipment

2\. Ask each American to provide all their social media account information
when entering the country or throw them out

3\. Set quotas for American businesses to sell their products/services.

4\. Force Google, etc to locate servers and data-centers in China/India
directly and give the keys to local governments (if the US government can get
access why should other governments not?)

If a trade war did happen:

Specific to India: Their economy is mostly non-export oriented (except the IT
services part) - they will probably take longer to raise the quality of living
for their population - but it will probably be a better path to take (a trade
war would probably help grow domestic businesses faster)

Specific to China: The USA needs access to the Chinese markets rather than the
other way. Plus they can always dump all those treasury notes

Perhaps a trade war (rather de-globalization) would be a good idea for the
developing world - it would bring better balance to the world and undo
globalization as a whole and not parts of it (which is exactly what USA voted
for when they elected Trump).

P.S. Please don't give a self-righteous BS response about USA being the land
of the free and so on.. I think it's pretty obvious most immigrants are there
for the money and quality of living (the kind of quality that comes with money
and not society, safety, etc)

~~~
Helmet
You're severely underestimating the impact U.S. business has on other
countries. A trade war with any of the countries you have listed would harm
them much more than it would harm the US.

China holds about 8-9% US debt. Their entire economic model is based on the
devaluation of their currency so that the US and other countries purchase
their products. If China dumps US debt, there is plenty of demand elsewhere.

Look, I'm not some extreme pro-America nationalist - but you have to look at
the facts and it is simply an indisputable reality that no other country in
the world can compete with the US on economic grounds.

You are overplaying your hand if you think that a trade war with the US would
end favorably for any of those nations.

~~~
throwaway251
You are right - no other country in the world can compete with the US on
economic grounds. And the reason for this has been decades of international
trade that the USA has benefited from. The aim should not be competition but
dis-engagement.

It would cause a LOT of short term pain - but 15-20 years later it would show
benefits. China and India need to evolve with reduced dependence on exports
(and the developed world). In any case they will have the largest markets
based on current population projections.

Just look at the kind of income inequality that exists in these countries - I
would actually argue that this was a by-product of trying to copy/serve the US
model at some level.

~~~
koopuluri
> I would actually argue that this was a by-product of trying to copy/serve
> the US model at some level.

How?

------
throwaway100217
I am on an H1-B work authorization.

The company applied for my position with a salary of ~$100K/yr (on the LCA and
the H1 application) but they actually paid me ~$240K/yr. This year and the
next, it will be well north of $300-$330K/yr.

Why would they do this? Simple - to be able to pay me a prevailing wage and
keep me in status in case the shit hits the fan.

If they applied to the government saying they'd pay me $240K/yr, and for some
reason they had to give me a pay cut, I'd be out of status or we would have to
make a less-confident amendment to my H1 auth. A pay cut amendment should be
viewed with skepticism in my opinion and I would avoid it.

It's like underpromising and overdelivering.

My actual salary will never be reported in an H1 database. But it will be on
my tax returns.

This isn't a common case but just something to keep in mind.

~~~
refurb
_My actual salary will never be reported in an H1 database._

The company _has_ to report your actual salary. That's what in this database:
[http://h1bdata.info/](http://h1bdata.info/)

It's not prevailing wage, it's actual base pay.

I can remember at a previous employer that when you file for an H1-B, the
company _has to post the information in a public place_. The form states the
prevailing wage and the actual base salary.

~~~
throwaway100217
Well, one can pay out using bonuses, distributions and any number of other
instruments.

I didn't dispute that the job opportunity had to be posted prominently in the
workplace with details exactly as stated in the H1 application.

LCA re-applications / H1 amendments are not required unless the location, the
position or the nature of the job change significantly. Pay cuts are simply
not allowed without informing the government.

Actual base pay >= prevailing wage? Perhaps my using them interchangeably
isn't right. However, given a reasonable chance of approval, I would not apply
for an H1 auth promising anything above the prevailing wage.

My tax returns / pay stubs are included in H1 extensions, intermediate steps
to a green card and in visa applications. They are well aware of the pay
raises.

IANAL and I can check with our lawyer again but this was our company's legal
advice. If you are a lawyer or know one, this may be a difference of opinion.

------
anjc
>Although it is true that foreign workers at the Indian consultancies receive
more visas than higher-skilled workers at better-known firms, a simple
solution exists. Congress could raise the number of visas issued. Given that
the unemployment rate for college graduates sits at 2.5%, it is fair to say
that most native workers displaced by H-1Bs land on their feet.

Absolute scum. Native workers displaced by H1Bs is ok because the fired
workers eventually find other work? Vile.

A significant proportion of IT and STEM graduate are _unable_ to get work in
their chosen industry, and proceed to waste years of education by going into
other areas _out of necessity_.

I can't believe somebody could shit out the quoted text and have it published.

~~~
mberning
The idea that a US citizen could rack up tremendous debt on a 4 year STEM
degree only to be passed over in favor of a cheaper H1B "indentured servant"
that received a degree from a low cost diploma mill is vile indeed.

~~~
anjc
It isn't just the US too. It's the same all over Western Europe.

What sticks in my craw even more is that, to legitimise the process of issuing
more visas, companies and governments have to continually say "there aren't
enough STEM and IT grads! Do STEM and IT everyone!" knowing full well that
there wont be jobs for these kids at the end of it.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Anecdata: I'm in US. Three boys, all graduated Engineers. All have jobs, easy
as pie. One had $30/hr part-time remote work _during_ last year of college.
Have to move to get the right job maybe, or take what you can find, but for
various reasons they're all very happy.

My Niece is in a field that's chronically low on qualified Engineers - she
designs and installs automation in factories. So many facets including
mechanical, electrical, industrial, chemical, process, thermo, etc. You have
to be an all-rounder to get the job. So they work her flat out every minute
she can spare (lives in hotels in remote cities for weeks during installs).

Other niece does lithium-battery development for startups in Silicon Valley.
They keep going under, but no problem another one starts up the next week. Got
all the work she can handle.

Wife's niece does biomedical research, never been a day without work. Canada,
East Coast US (Yale actually), then a regular job with Govt.

Anyway, of the 13 siblings and their cousins, exactly 1 has ever had a day of
trouble with employment. So all the talk about 'over-supply' might be
exaggerated.

~~~
RileyKyeden
There's a reason anecdotes are useless in these kinds of discussions. Your
family probably benefited from network effects: one person gets a job, then
provides industry contacts and references to the next, and so on. Your
family's tremendous luck should not be mistaken for a reasonable expectation.

Someone will be along with an equivalent tale about how they and everyone they
know looked for a STEM job for years and gave up. That's why anecdata isn't
actually a thing.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Exactly one case of 'network effect' \- one brother got little brother hired
on at startup as intern during the summer. Others all lived at far ends of the
country from one another, in entirely different fields.

There're other effects, things labeled 'white privilege' or 'middle class
ethics' I imagine. So no, not a recipe for escaping poverty or anything. I was
the son of a dirt farmer in Iowa (like my sisters and brothers), but worked in
Silicon Valley when young so my boys didn't have the disadvantages I did.

------
throwo5
I used to work at American Express as full time H1B employee, Arizona location
as an Engineer I (10 years exp). They paid me 80K while they paid 110K
starting salary for fresh American graduates from Arizona State for Engineer
III position. (Engineer I > Engineer III). Also they were promoted from
Engineer III to Engineer I within an year, while I did all the hard work with
no promotions or salary raise.

H1B visa abuse at its best by an American Company. I am not in US anymore.
Left it for good.

------
almightykrish
Ex-TCS employee here: Seen this every year during my tenure at TCS. Every year
in February / January project teams are requested by HR to send "list of
eligible candidates" to apply for H1-B visa. The eligibility is weirdly
composed, like they keep out graduates who have CS background and senior
associates out of it. This is to ensure the associates stick longer with the
company once they move to US.

Finally the list comprises of 1000's of applicants for whom the Job Position
is either falsely certified by Labour Department (LCA). (Dont understand why
the Labour department never carries out an investigation).

------
rodionos
Number of H-1B visas issued for Indian citizens, 1997-2015:
[https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/1bc51064](https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/1bc51064)

Top H-1B countries:
[https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/04040e14](https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/04040e14)

~~~
guitarbill
That's really useful data. As always with statistics, I've thought about what
factors could influence the data. One is population, so the obvious thing
would be to weight the number of visas issued (which should be proportional to
the number of visas applied for if it's a lottery) with the population of that
country, specifically the number of people with bachelor degrees or higher.

But even with weights controlling for educated population, from rough
calculations I've done, H1-B visas seem to be issued disproportionally often
to Indian nationals.

If it were somehow possible to see the average H1-B wage per nationality, that
would also be very interesting.

But neither would answer why that's the case, a simple (and probably wrong
explanation) could be that Europeans are simply less likely to wait for H1-B
visas given the benefits inherently provided in those countries. (Edit: What I
mean is you still can't tell if this disproportionality is a good or bad
thing, only that there is such a disproportionality.)

~~~
rodionos
That's a good point, obviously India and China have vastly larger populations
and hence produce more STEM graduates than the other countries. If population
and the number of graduates were the key factor, we would observe a similar
trend across other visa types, in particular academic visas. This is not the
case, it seems:

[https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/6042ea50/2/](https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/6042ea50/2/)
\- J-1

[https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/6042ea50/3/](https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/6042ea50/3/)
\- F-1

J-1 is particularly interesting, where India is growing but lagging behind
other countries.

------
darkdreams
Slightly off topic. My understanding is that for every H-1B application that
is filed the US government takes a ACWIA fee that is supposed to be used for
improving competitiveness of the American worker and providing scholarships.

From [https://www.uscis.gov/forms/h-and-l-filing-fees-
form-i-129-p...](https://www.uscis.gov/forms/h-and-l-filing-fees-
form-i-129-petition-nonimmigrant-worker)

"SEC. 414 Collection and use of H-1B nonimmigrant fees for scholarships for
low-income math, engineering, and computer science students and job training
of United States workers".

I am curious whether they could quantify/prove/debunk the skills shortage
theory using the scholarships that are given. Does anyone know about this?

~~~
Chico75
Planet Money did an episode on that quite recently:
[http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/01/27/512060753/episo...](http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/01/27/512060753/episode-750-retraining-
day)

------
bischofs
Citing the low unemployment rate of STEM graduates to indicate that native
workers have nothing to worry about is silly. Basic economics says that wages
do not increase _until_ full employment is reached. I may have a job but my
wage would be higher if I wasn't competing with 100,000 H1-Bs

------
itissid
As an H1B visa holder, I think the issue of abuse at its core has to do with
two things(at least):

1\. Too many tech firms require/opt for low cost workers to subsidize their
payroll bill. If you raise H1B salaries, firms that have thin margins might
automate and outsource. I think to scrap the lottery, and add the market based
approach to H1Bs like in the House Bill that was proposed in Jan is a better
alternative, it would force firms to be more productive and boost payroll more
organically.

2\. The program is underfunded, its entirely fees driven and the fees is
clearly not enough to prevent abuse we keep hearing about so much.

Remember top end silicon valley's don't really need to care about the salary
issue as long as the reform does not dry the talent from coming to the US
completely.

------
forgotAgain
A constant theme for support of H-1B's is that they supply the US with an
irreplaceable resource for starting new technical companies.

Despite this I have not heard reference of any individual who came to this
country on a H-1B visa _to work for an Indian outsourcing company_ who later
participated in a significant successful startup. Honest question, does anyone
know an example of this having occurred?

~~~
virmundi
I don't think that it has to be a startup. What I'd like to hear from actually
high skilled people with skills beyond that found in the US. I think that the
H1-B program makes sense if a company need nuclear scientist, etc.

~~~
dalacv
The skill that they possess is the ability to work for 1/2 the pay.

------
winter_blue
This article is repeats the false idea that you cannot switch jobs to other
companies. You can switch jobs to other companies that are willing to transfer
your H-1B visa. Plenty of tech companies will happily do a visa transfer. Yet,
this facetious lie is often repeated. It just goes to show how inaccurate and
poorly-researched this article was.

~~~
dominotw
Sure but you lose your line in Perm queue, not to mention the H1B
recertification process which is fraught with peril.

~~~
winter_blue
Are you sure about your I-140 priority date resetting if you change jobs? I've
heard mixed opinions on this. Also, the policies on this might have changed
due to the various new immigration regulations that came into effect on
January 17, 2017: [https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-
fin...](https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-final-rule-
certain-employment-based-immigrant-and-nonimmigrant-visa-programs)

~~~
mavelikara
The place in line stays intact, especially after the new rules came into play.

Nevertheless, the process has to restarted - from PERM onwards - at the new
job. PERM is a process which carries much uncertainty - your application could
get selected for additional scrutiny randomly, in which case it can take more
than a year. During this period the priority date can become current and
_then_ retrogress again for many years. Both these have happened multiple
times in the past, so those possibilities are not academic.

~~~
winter_blue
> the process has to restarted - from PERM onwards - at the new job

PERM (labor certification) has to be done _all over again_ at the new job?
That really sucks. I thought that if the new job was _" substantially
similar"_, you wouldn't need to go through PERM all over again at the new
position. Are you sure about this?

Also, is there some good reading material, for an H-1B visa holder, to
understand how this whole thing works, the process, etc?

~~~
mavelikara
> PERM (labor certification) has to be done all over again at the new job?

> Are you sure about this?

IANAL, but I believe this to be the case. The original sources are all reams
of legalese, but this answer on Quora summarizes the basics:
[https://www.quora.com/If-an-employer-has-applied-for-a-
green...](https://www.quora.com/If-an-employer-has-applied-for-a-green-card-
can-one-change-jobs/answer/Priya-Alagiri)

------
paulus_magnus2
(EU citizen point of view) I'd never consider a role in US that pays less than
150k (outside SV) $200k (SV/NY).

H-1B is really bad because the holder has limited bargaining power vs US
citizens hence he's forced to accept a lower salary when competing for jobs.

There's also no clean way to allow talent to move around the world.

A fair solution would be to agree on visa free movement of specialists earning
above certain threshold ($100, $150k etc), even if it starts with a group of
"most favourite nations".

~~~
throwaway100217
Once in the US, an H1-B auth holder can move at will to another company
without informing the current employer. If the H1 transfer fails, it is a
silent failure,

Bargaining power is an illusion once the employee is in the US.

~~~
harigov
Yes and no. Most H1B's are stuck on that visa for a long time [more than 6
years] because they are waiting for their green card. Because green card is
restricted by country, folks from India/China/Mexico have to wait much much
longer to get a green card. If you change company when your green card is
being processed, the whole process will have to restart. So most people just
stick to their company and wait it out.

------
unsupak
Everyone knows that most H1-B visas are used up by Indian firms for Indian
nationals. Not by American firms for international talent. All the politicians
have known about this abuse for years but this part of US foreign policy and
lobby group efforts. India is a considered a natural ally against China and
the Muslims.

~~~
mavelikara
> Everyone knows that most H1-B visas are used up by Indian firms for Indian
> nationals. Not by American firms for international talent.

Indians are "international". Or did you mean that only Europeans qualify?

------
ausjke
This has been true for 15 years at least, which is one reason why
Wipro/Infosys was getting most IT assignments for US market. When you look
into how it worked it is amazing to realize the way the system was abused
while no action was taken for decades.

------
mattfrommars
Well it takes The Economist to point of this fact which I've been telling
about it for ages. None of them believed that it was Indian who are favored to
get H1B compared to other nationality. Indian take so much pride with Indian
worker in these large tech firms and other places instead of realizing the
fact they are favored. Why not give other nationality a chance to see what is
going on? I've seen it happen with firm like Microsoft with HR manager being
Indian and favoring Indian internee and granting him job then Pakistani
developer who was without a doubt better performer.

Would love to see some H1B crackdown happening.

~~~
harigov
That is total nonsense. As an Indian, I can assure you that the bias is
usually other way around. Of course, I have no data to prove. A more accurate
way to look at why Indians are all over the place in technical companies is to
go look at different engineering courses in American Universities.
Indians/Chinese usually make up 50% or more of any grad class in most
Universities.

------
nicholas73
I would go further and say that underpaid H1-B's are a straw man to the real
mechanism that depresses American wages. Even if imported workers are paid
exactly market, that still means market prices do not go up as there is no one
to bid up salaries. That means people are not being compensated for delivery
high value, or for developing skill in a difficult or rare area.

There is a lot of hot air between the salary a person would accept versus the
value they generate for a company. Having some unemployed people makes it so
that the balance always tips towards the low end.

------
caseysoftware
> _That is not a good argument against them_

It's odd that the Economist has this sub-head but then goes on to make the
case that Indian outsourcing companies are the biggest consumers _and_ paying
a fraction of what the others are paying.. so they _are_ abusing the system.

The rumor (proposal?) is that Trump is going to shift the minimum salary from
$60k to $130k which makes it closer to software dev salaries in Seattle, SF,
NYC which I think would address this.

------
CodeSheikh
Why don't we just stop accepting visa applications from Indian outsourcing
firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys for one year and see how it unfolds? It will
resolve the ongoing debate -- at lease prove it one way or another. From a
candidate's point of view, I am all in for finding new opportunities in a
foreign prosperous land. But gaming the system is not great for the local US
economy. Maybe having a new visa category with temp status and easy renewals
every six-months. If those candidates are good enough, they can easily find
regular H1-B jobs with regular American companies. Some foreigners spend a lot
of money and go through severe hardships to get educated at American
universities adhering to American socio-economic values. If they are good
enough, they get hired by American companies with regular pays. I think it is
unfair for them to get categorized under the same blanket rhetoric of "Abusing
of H1-B visas".

~~~
usernametbd
> Why don't we just stop accepting visa applications from Indian outsourcing
> firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys

It's not practical to do that. You can call them "Indian outsourcing firms",
but on paper they are American companies too. Compiling such a black list of
companies purely based on how many H-1B applications they've filed in the past
is not a good idea. Because it'll just give unfair advantage to the other
"outsourcing" companies like Tech Mahindra, who probably should have been on
that list, but escaped the radar because of these other giants. So these
companies will now top the list and they'll hire aggressively to replace TCS,
Infosys and co.

So what is the solution? Hard to say. Raising the minimum wage is a good
start, but the exact amount will have to vary state by state. Because, for
example, $80000 per year is too small for the bay area, but a good salary in
Texas, NC etc.

Another approach is provide an easier way to permanent residency for those who
complete Masters or above in US. That will eliminate to some extent the mixing
up the "Elon Musks and Sergey Brins" along with those abusing the system.

And for God's sake, allow H-4 dependents to work. It's hypocritical to expect
high skilled people to work in your country, but they shouldn't be married to
someone who wants to work. You are destroying livelihoods, careers and
relationships by doing this.

~~~
CodeSheikh
I agree with "an easier way to permanent residency for those who complete
Masters or above in US." part. And yes for dependents to pursue jobs as well
and get an equal opportunity at a better livelihood. But some sort of major
change needs to happen to silence critics on both sides.

------
nottorp
Isn't a H-1B a form of indentured servitude? As in, if you change jobs you
lose your visa?

If yes, you don't get the competent ones but the cheap ones who have no
choice. The good ones work on their terms for whomever they please.

Edit: combine that with kls's answer about incentives, and you see why this
visa system isn't quite working.

~~~
blunte
The same applies for Americans working in Europe as highly skilled migrants. A
company sponsors your visa, and when that job ends (like the company shuts
down, for example), you must go find another company willing to sponsor you.
Or if you're fortunate, as with Americans in Netherlands, you can start your
own business easily and get a freelance visa.

But the point is the same - you work at the place that sponsored you, or you
risk having to go back home.

~~~
nottorp
Well, for some reason nobody's complaining about Western Europe immigrants
taking US jobs...

~~~
virmundi
It appears to be a difference between immigrant (with permanency) vs transient
skills. There was a time when society needed itinerant skilled workers. Now we
have the infrastructure to train, en masse, our workers. While skipping the
training step is nice, hence the permanent workers, H1-Bs appear to bring
mostly unskilled, or low skilled workers into the country under the banner of
master masons, so to speak.

~~~
blunte
H1-B, as championed by Microsoft and embraced by many large companies, was
clearly used as a tool to replace market wage tech employees with low wage
immigrants. Microsoft's arguments before Congress were fully debunked, and
many of us who have worked for two decades in US IT have seen the reality.

Plus, over the last 15 years as what we do with and demand from computing
technology has expanded exponentially, the knowledge gap between
management/hiring managers and IT workers has grown to the point where
management often has no clue at all about how to spec a job or how to
filter/evaluate a candidate. This has led us to the alphabet soup that is job
specs - the "what did our last guy do before he quit? yeah put all that on the
list of requirements" problem.

So it's not just an H1-B problem; it's much bigger. But it probably results in
a feeling of futility on the part of hiring managers, leading them to think,
"well since we're basically guessing at this hiring thing, we might as well
hire the cheapest we can get."

------
leovonl
Funny, you'd think non-immigration visas for USA would be much stricter than
for Canada, but lately I've been realizing that's not the case at all. That's
specially true for rules applying to the companies (like salary requirements).

------
Technophilis
The articles gives a good overview of the "H-1B situation". However, if you
want to dig deeper here is some data I put together
[http://h1bpay.com/blog/2017/01/30/h-1b-visa-basics-
applicati...](http://h1bpay.com/blog/2017/01/30/h-1b-visa-basics-application-
numbers-and-salary-facts/)

Basically, only Microsoft is among the top 10 sponsors and not of the major
sponsors is among the top 10 average salaries.

------
perseusprime11
This thing is the only thing that is keeping the salaries low. I can easily
imagine a good software engineer getting paid at least 250-300K if we don't
have H1-B visa system.

~~~
mildbow
But we have been getting paid those ~numbers!

Software engineer salaries are starting to have a strong bimodal distribution.

Charitably, your statement could very well be true for those American
developers who live in the lower end of compensation. But, it's nonsensical
when applied to those getting paid in the high range.

Anyway, the long-term fix is not to shift the lower end up by ~10k (if that
even happens) for everyone. The fix is for each individual developer to move
to the higher range.

ie. quit blaming immigration and get better.

------
aaron-lebo
Have there been attempts at pumping H1B money and similar efforts into
schools?

I've always wondered if we want minorities to code and we are worried about
job loss in the US, why not stop dumping money into hiring foreigners and
instead dump it into CS programs at community colleges?

It would take some time before you could build up a domestic work force as
talented as foreigners, but would it not solve several issues? Or is it just
not practical for other reasons?

~~~
ganeshkrishnan
It's not the business responsibility to train Americans/Europeans/Indians. A
business has to respond to it's shareholders who don't ask the question "How
many of our nationality/religion/race have you employed" but "What's the share
price"

It's the government's responsibility to train people and H1b failure is
government's responsibility. Most companies dont even pay tax, do you really
expect them to hire ONLY Americans?

Why would they when they can hire/outsource their work for half the cost.

Most big business have at least half their profits from outside the US. I
remember IBM Global surpassing US profits when I used to work for IBM.

Cracking down on H1b is a bandaid over brain cancer. Fix the rot in education
system, make education free, invest in tech else the big Businesses have no
obligation to stay in US and pay more to do the same job (H1b or locals)

~~~
godzillabrennus
Businesses used to hire and train. There was once loyalty within corporate
America. That is dead.

~~~
ganeshkrishnan
>Businesses used to hire and train. There was once loyalty within corporate
America. That is dead.

I cannot debate this. However given our current situation and seeing our
progress the rightful way would be for the government to invest more into
education. Saudades is not going to help us. Being more pragmatic and planning
accordingly will be much more beneficial

~~~
cmdrfred
>invest more into education

I suggest the opposite. The reason college tuition is so high is because the
government backs those loans. Remove the government backing of loans thus
lessening the availability of capitol to the educational system and I think
you will find it will become vastly more affordable.

~~~
thewhitetulip
I am in India and the govt doesn't back any student loan yet college tuitions
have ridiculously skyrocketed, heck, I paied less for my one yr college
tuition than qhat my cousin is paying for his daughter's playgroup (I paid 50k
INR for 1yr tuition and my neice's playgeoup charges 75k INR, don't know what
the fuck they teach)

~~~
cmdrfred
That's less than $800 US isn't it? To compare a year of school here probably
averages 10K USD a year or 668,325 INR.

~~~
thewhitetulip
No, it is around $ 1250

I am talking about playgroup!! And 75k is the least costly PLAYGROUP,
playgroup is before starting nursery :P

Oh my God, 10k $ per year! That is way too costly, Indian colleges have
reached 1/3 or your school's fees, my counterparts at private institutions
were paying 1/3 and I have heard that people now in college are paying as far
as 1/2 of what you have mentioned, so it is catching up.

------
hackerboos
Planet Money republished their podcast on immigration recently: Episode 436:
If Economists Controlled The Borders

[http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/02/08/514152963/episo...](http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/02/08/514152963/episode-436-if-
economists-controlled-the-borders)

------
nashashmi
I just want to put this out there: There are many fields outside of computer
science and engineering where the average salary is not very high, and yet
those fields have a desperate need of talent, not just because there is some
niche thing only someone from outside can do, but also because the number of
people going into the field are dangerously low.

------
comments_db
I can confirm my employer pays me at or above market rate. I am on H1B, but
never been part of the outsourcing firms.

------
Consultant32452
I wonder how many people against H-1Bs are also opposed to Trump's worker
protectionist policy re: NAFTA. Seems that at least philosophically they're
aligned.

------
omouse
BAM, there is no fucking tech labour shortage! They're just hiring outsourcing
firms instead of training. Fucking knew it.

------
harichinnan
Many of the people who are against H1B are missing the bigger picture.

1\. H1B employers pay wages based on the numbers Department of Labor provides
them.

2\. Labor department contains a la carte of titles available for the same job
to choose from. Employers generally chose a title with lower wages.
Programming Analysts and Software Engineers do essentially the same job with
upto 50K spread in wages.

3\. The limit on H1B works against American Employers who usually pay much
higher wages than the Indian consultancies. The American employers have to
compete with a flood of applications from India. This forces big companies to
subcontract Indian firms.

4\. Companies in India randomly select employees to file for visas
irrespective of whether they have actual business in US. Many H1B recipients
don't actually come to US. Many wait in India for years before their companies
arrange for a actual job in India. The lottery forces everyone to game the
system.

5\. US cannot actually deny Indian consultancies from operating in US. That
would be denying market access to India. Indian companies does 60 Billion
dollar worth of business in total. That's paltry compared to trade between US
and India. US sells everything from Boeing to Starbucks and any restrictions
on visas could invite trade war from India too.

6\. People who oppose H1Bs actually dream of earning Wall Street salaries in
Silicon Valley. That's a pipe dream unless you work in quant engineer jobs in
Hedge funds and HFT. You can't build businesses that would pay the average
worker 400K in Silicon Valley.

7\. Restrictions on H1B would move American programming jobs to Asia much like
the manufacturing jobs of rust belt.

8\. The world is a much bigger place than America. An Indian worker taking a
job doesn't necessarily mean a loss of opportunity for an American worker.
It's not a zero sum game. H1B workers take up tech jobs. In most big
companies, the ratio of tech to non tech jobs is atleast 1:6. Look at Amazon
creating 100K non technical jobs in last few years. A few million technology
workers in America make most of the high tech for the rest of the 7 billion
human beings on the planet. Trade restrictions are not something you need.
There could be a Chinese firewall in every country to protect local jobs and
to rob Google and Facebooks of business opportunities. There would be more
Baidu's, Youku's, Wechats and Alibabas in every country on the planet.

9\. There's actually such a thing as skills shortage at every level. Even at
the blue collar end, Many Americans cannot pass tests at 9'th grade level and
are functionally illiterate. Tech jobs require a whole lot more skills that
the coal miners in Michigan won't be able to take up.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/education/edlife/factory-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/education/edlife/factory-
workers-college-degree-apprenticeships.html?_r=0)

To summarize, if you are concerned about H1B lowering wages in your market,
campaign for worker mobility and higher wages for H1B and the market would
work it out. Americans are best at creating free market solutions to problems.
H1B lottery system and the restrictions is a socialist solution that best
works in restricted economies. Also campaign for a startup visas. Both for
entrepreneurs and employees. The Frech Tech visa could be a model
[http://visa.lafrenchtech.com/](http://visa.lafrenchtech.com/) . This would
help many of the people languishing in H1Bs to create more companies and more
jobs here in US.

------
234dd57d2c8dba
This just confirms that H-1B visa is yet another piece of corporate welfare
pushed through by lobbyists for the benefit of large corporations at the
expense of small businesses and the middle class.

My small software business can't compete with slave labor from India that
large corporations with an army of lawyers can acquire.

Just one of the many reasons that self-employment and small businesses are
struggling against a tide of complicated regulations and legislation and
immigration meant to crush the workers and small businesses.

As you can see, self-employment has been on a steady downward trend since
1967:
[https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2010/09/art2full.pdf](https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2010/09/art2full.pdf)

~~~
comments_db
> ...slave labor from India... With that attitude, you don't deserve to work
> with the multi-cultural and multi-national diaspora of the software world.

------
pinaceae
yes, and it's filling shit jobs that no American CS grad wants to do.

who wants to do outsourced QA for Oracle? menial, mind numbing clicky work.

who wants to maintain monster codebases built 20 years ago for some internal
bullshit system at a Fortune 500?

most of Software work by now is akin to facilities management. hence you give
it to motivated foreigners, just like in farming, etc.

~~~
gaius
For a decent salary, lots of people. Do the 9-5 and spend the rest of the time
on hobbies or with family. And why not?

~~~
pinaceae
simply not true.

become a hiring manager and you'll see.

you don't even get _applications_ for those jobs by American CS grads or
professionals - before any salary numbers are in play.

we run analysis in our HR pipeline trackers - remove Asians and Eastern
Europeans and its crickets.

walk into Google, Facebook, Salesforce offices and see for yourself.

i know this is super unpopular on HN were everyone is a superstar coder, but
facts are fact. 90% of software work is undesirable and unfulfilling - and
Westerners feel entitled to life-changing work.

I just had a 26 year-old US coder quit because he does not want to come to
work every day anymore, he now wants to travel Nepal and do something radical.
Great for him - while a 1000 less-fortunate-by- birthplace people would give a
leg for his job.

~~~
gaius
_you don 't even get applications for those jobs by American CS grads or
professionals_

 _I just had a 26 year-old US coder_

I think you may be looking at this through a very narrow perspective of SF
20-something startup culture. But look at any other branch of engineering -
civil, electrical, mechanical etc - and the backbone of those fields is 30- 40
and 50- somethings who work normal office hours.

------
redsummer
You could make the Sanders _and_ Trump people happy if there was free college
and education for economically underprivileged Americans for STEM /
Programming jobs. It doesn't seem likely given the political divide.

------
sergiotapia
So President Trump was right about this.

------
calvinbhai
Because citizens of countries other than india and china don't really need h1
visas to work in US.

Many countries have treaty work visas (Canada / Mexico citizens can work on TB
visa)

And those who study in US, if their employer starts green card process they
can get their EAD before OPT expires.

Only Indians and Chinese have to rely on h1b.

~~~
camus2
> Because citizens of countries other than india and china don't really need
> h1 visas to work in US.

A complete lie. We in Europe are bound by the exact same rules as the Indians
or the Chinese when it comes to immigration to US.

~~~
aub3bhat
Except European countries greatly benefitted from Chinese Exclusion Act. The
legacy of which still exists today in form of per country quota.

In fact when passing the Immigration Act of 1965 (untill then only few hundred
indians/Chinese were allowed.) The then president sought to reassure people
that country won't be overrun by Indians.

[https://www.saada.org/tides/article/20151001-4458](https://www.saada.org/tides/article/20151001-4458)

~~~
camus2
Which does not make the following statement true :

> Because citizens of countries other than india and china don't really need
> h1 visas to work in US.

~~~
aub3bhat
Yes they don't the Green Card even for EB-3 category are current for most
countries except India, China & Mexico.

Arguing on semantic grounds is frankly expressing white privilege. Just like
people who argue that some segregation laws didn't explicitly mention black
people. And thus were good.

Even within American lawmakers the current per country system is considered a
mistake and several legislations including the comprehensive immigration
reform passed by Senate in 2013 eliminated it.

~~~
raitom
It takes years to get a green card on EB-3 (same on EB-2) if your country is
Current. Most companies don't want to wait 2+ years and pay $10k in lawyer's
fees.

~~~
raitom
@aub3bhat: Send me more informations about that.

The PERM process in itself takes 6 months.

~~~
aub3bhat
You can bypass PERM via NIW.

~~~
raitom
How difficult is is?

