
Arabic and Islamic Themes in Frank Herbert's “Dune” (2004-2017) - sohkamyung
https://baheyeldin.com/literature/arabic-and-islamic-themes-in-frank-herberts-dune.html
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eccbits
“This article is not meant to be a literary nor an exhaustive topical critique
of the novels, which I am cannot fully do, because simply, I did not read the
original novels. ”

Why is this highly rated on HN then?!

~~~
antisemiotic
On a tangential note, your post reminded me that I should go read "How to talk
about books you haven't read", at least for the peace of mind, if not anything
else.

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gattilorenz
You should certainly talk about it, anyway (and you're doing it already, so,
great!).

Jokes aside, that's a surprisingly good book, and the ideas it presents are
quite useful in a number of seemingly unrelated life contexts.

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madhadron
> It is amazing that Frank Herbert would be exposed to this term, and make use
> of it.

This sort of summarizes the article. The author is apparently unaware that
Frank Herbert had wide and varied interests and did an enormous amount of
research for the books.

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boomboomsubban
Or they are completely aware that Herbert did vast amounts of research, and
they are still impressed at some of the things he encountered.

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mytailorisrich
Perhaps but to me this still implies the idea that the arab and muslim worlds
are somehow mysterious in the West.

I don't know how true that was in the USA but certainly Europe has had more
than a thousand years of intimate contacts with the arab world, which is not
mysterious at all.

~~~
boomboomsubban
>Europe has had more than a thousand years of intimate contacts with the arab
world, which is not mysterious at all.

How familiar do you think most of Europe would be with tenth century Islamic
theology? It's not mysterious, but it also isn't well known either.

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mytailorisrich
The point is not that it is well-known by the public at large but that someone
interested in the topic will find a huge body of work and knowledge on it
because of the extensive contacts over time.

~~~
boomboomsubban
As you say, the contact has left a huge body of work. Combing through that
knowledge is an extensive undertaking, and what methods you use will lead you
to different places.

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MarcScott
I read all of these novels as a teenager, and was oblivious to the Islamic
references and influences. Even terms like "jihad" were alien to me at the
time.

I'm now married into a Muslim family, and am much more culturally aware. I
reread the books recently and was stunned by how many Islamic and Arabic
terminology was prevalent in the text.

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princeb
i wonder if there was a general feeling in the 80s or so that the shrinking of
the world - through the internet or whatever else technology people of the 80s
may foresee - would cause the world views of different communities around the
world to become more syncretized, in the same way you have various diaspora
e.g. Chinese-American, Italian-American, Chinese-Indonesian cultures having
plenty of cultural and religious adaptations, in addition to vestigial
features, compared to the ancestral nation they left.

It certainly didn't feel like the world turned out that way by the '10s. Now
more than ever I think it is unlikely that two different cultures are likely
to blend, never mind two massively different ones like Buddhism and Islam (the
zensunni) or Buddhism and Christianity (OC) as imagined in the Dune universe.
You see gradual extinction/diminishing of a lot of cultures around the world -
the disappearing toisanese communities of american chinatowns, arabization of
south-east asian muslims, or the fading of austro/polynesian cultures as a
dominant culture takes root. nothing truly merges unless there is a strong top
down effort to ensure the survival of a marginal culture, and by corollary,
religion.

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jaldhar
Who would have thought the descendants of the Puritans would be using words
like yoga, karma, avatar or reading the Bhagavadgita? Or there is the joke
that the four branches of Judaism are Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and
Buddhist etc.

Mostly this is taking place at an individual not communal level at the moment
but given a long enough time scale I could see it happening.

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coldtea
> _Who would have thought the descendants of the Puritans would be using words
> like yoga, karma, avatar or reading the Bhagavadgita?_

Don't underestimate them! With enough marketing and dilution of concepts, and
a few celebrity/rich people endorsements, they can consume shallow feel-good
products made from any ancient culture (as long as they don't have to make any
real commitments to said culture of course).

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blondin
"dune -- the battle for arrakis" what a trip down the memory lane! it had one
of the best game soundtracks ever made. command and conquer, starcraft and
warcraft all came a few years later and copied everything they did right. but
dune was way too iconic.

okay... perhaps command and conquer came close enough. i still remember siding
with the global defense initiative because the name sounded way too cool.

someone ought to put these real-time strategy gems in a classic package!

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tasogare
Dune II was developed by Westwood Studios before C&C. Also, they made a remake
of the game with C&C engine, Dune 2000. I really like it because of the
different kind of grounds and the sandworms that both add tactical depths in
comparison to C&C and RA.

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test6554
Man I can't even describe how much I looked forward to the release of C&C and
the excitement when I finally got to play it.

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Anothernhym
Interesting words left out of his analysis that I caught in a recent re-read.

* Zurna: A Turkish clay Clarinet of sorts, somewhat of a grandchild of a similar Egyptian instrument. * Tabla: Egyptian word for drum (also Hindi, I'm not sure which one came first). Called Derbakki by Kurds/Druze/Syrians, Dumbek and Darbuka in Turkish, and Tarabukka by the Slavs.

Spice orgy. Not an Arabic term, but rather it seems to be a reference to an
early Sufism ritual where Hashish would be taken before and during a week-long
Sema (think non-stop whirling dervishes). Theoretically they were not sexual,
but rather considered to be an "orgy of spirituality" brought on by long-term
extortion of the senses (try spinning for 30 seconds .. imagine doing it for
24 hours).

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angry_octet
This has all the hallmarks of content generated under contract to collect
hits. It is a micro industry providing piecework to people who can write but
are otherwise not employable, e.g. due to location. I love the honesty though:

<<I did not read the original novels. I have watched and enjoyed the movie and
the mini-series, and read summaries of the novels. >>

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sn41
Not only are there Islamic themes, there are also Jewish themes. The name
"Kwisatz Haderach" is based on Hebrew. (This is mentioned in the list.)

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parsimo2010
There are a number of religious themes blended in _Dune_. The main religious
text is the Orange Catholic Bible, which by name implicates
Catholicism/Christianity, but also includes Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism. It
even includes hypothetical blends of Islam/Buddhism and Christianity/Buddhism.
Frank Herbert never fully explains how all religions eventually ended up
blended into one, but he does explore the religion quite a bit, and some
background is given in the prequels that his son wrote.

I enjoy it, because I feel very clever when I recognize how some idea in
_Dune_ can be traced to an existing religion or philosophy.

[https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Orange_Catholic_Bible](https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Orange_Catholic_Bible)

Edit: to speak more to your main topic, I believe the Bene Gesserit tradition
of following matriarchal lineage comes from some part of Judaism.

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fjfaase
'Catholic' does not neccessary refer to Roman Catholic and/or Christianity.
See:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(term)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_\(term\))

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parsimo2010
It does 99.9% of the time, with the 0.1% exception coming from people that are
being pedantic. The Wikipedia page you linked to is part of a series on
Christianity, and it's pretty clear in Herbert's writing that the Orange
Catholics do have Christian influences (alongside the previously mentioned
Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism).

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randomcarbloke
I thought these themes were so overt that even as a young boy they were very
apparent to me.

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_iyig
I'm surprised they don't mention the Dune prequel titled "The Butlerian
Jihad," written by Frank Herbert's son according to the former's notes:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad)

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s_Hogg
I'm not. Kevin J Anderson is basically the sci-fi equivalent of a grave
robber, in my view.

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glangdale
Penny Arcade went a little further: [https://www.penny-
arcade.com/comic/2003/10/15](https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/10/15)

(with justification, imo - the crudity and stupidity of the "Extended" Dune
universe books warrants this level of snark)

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_iyig
Butlerian Jihad didn’t seem that awful at the time (I was 12), but oh boy was
“Paul of Dune” ever an unworthy installment.

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farhadhf
Not only are there Islamic/Arabic and Jewish themes, there are also Persian
themes. Padishah in "The Padishah Emperor" comes from Persian and means king.

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Andr1
The article only mentions the videogame Dune II, but I think the true gem is
the very first game Dune I, which blended adventure and strategy. It was
magical

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reificator
Not sure the (2004) tag is warranted. Despite the publish date on the page,
the article mentions watching a documentary in 2017.

If you're wanting to read it yourself, beware: The author clearly tried to
restructure this a few times and then failed to clean up after themselves.

> _For example, Atreides is directly taken from Homer 's Iliad, and is hence
> of Greek mythological origin. Vladimir is a Slavic name, and common in
> Russia, which was the Evil Empire during the Cold War era. [...] Also names
> such as Vladimir and Atreides are from Slavic and Ancient Greek cultures._

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s_Hogg
(2004)

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pavlov
Are you sure? The article reads: “Much later, in 2017 or so...”

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theon144
>The novel is symbolic about the dependence of the West on the oil, and the
power struggles to control this valuable resource.

Very first paragraph, and already a turn-off.

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Lazare
I mean, it's a novel about the politics of foreign powers trying to extract a
valuable resource which is crucial for transportation from a desert region
that is explicitly described as looking like a cross between Mexico and the
Arabian Peninsula (even to the point of Arakis having date palms and saguaro
cactus), so uh...

...what was a turn off? That the author felt the need to point out the
glaringly obvious?

(Obviously the book explored many other themes about power, religion, culture,
environmentalism, etc., plus it was a pretty good story. But you can't really
pretend the Middle East and oil weren't also major themes in the book.)

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Rebelgecko
I can't speak for what bugged the above poster, but that sentence is worded in
an incredibly awkward way.

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ulisesrmzroche
Not really. English your first language? I’d take out the last comma and
that’s it

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Lazare
Eh... The phrase "symbolic about" is weird. "X is symbolic" is fine, and "X
symbolises Y" is fine, but "X is symbolic about Y" is unusual at best.

I'd probably go for something like "The novel can be read as an allegory for
the dependence of the West on oil, and for the power struggles which arise to
control this valuable resource." I think that expresses the point in a clearer
way, and is more idiomatic.

But the author's version is clear enough, even if sounds to me like something
a native speaker probably wouldn't come up with on their own.

