
Burnout is real – how to avoid it - rspivak
https://www.atlassian.com/blog/productivity/work-burnout-symptoms-and-prevention
======
hysan
Good compilation of the advice you often read about on the internet. However,
a big factor in all of the solutions is having the support of the entire
org/company. If your company doesn't believe that burnout is an issue and
ignores your "no"s, gives you zero control over what is on your plate, and
pressures you culturally, then to take back control, you are stuck fighting
another battle on top of burnout.

I've found that doing all the non-work bits of advice helps, but it doesn't
reverse the trend. It only slows down your burn rate which can be dangerous.
You begin to think it is under control when in reality, you're like a frog in
a pot slowly being boiled alive.

To really combat burnout, large influential companies need to target these
types of articles at companies themselves, not individuals. We are beyond the
point of calling out individuals. Notice how all of the language in this
article (until #8) is centered around _you_. _You_ are supposed to take full
responsibility for burnout. It is _your_ choice. _Your_ lack of self-
management is causing _your_ burnout. But sometimes, it's really not _you_.
It's _them_.

I hope the community begins to realize that responsibility goes both ways and
shifts the focus of these conversations onto companies. Don't put the entire
onus of burnout on the employee. That is avoiding responsibility and too much
of it can make it appear to be victim blaming. Start talking about how
companies can change culture around this, train management to recognize it,
and what it takes to make this a top-down effort instead of a bottom-up one.

A good start to this conversation can be: What does Atlassian (or your
company) do to prevent burnout throughout their company?

~~~
Zeebrommer
>all of the language in this article (until #8) is centered around you. You
are supposed to take full responsibility for burnout. It is your choice. Your
lack of self-management is causing your burnout.

Yes, this! My company seems to be halfway there: acknowledging that burnout is
a problem, but then turning that into helpful advice (eat healthy, take
breaks, go work out, etc) that is focused on the individual, ignoring cultural
factors and the total amount of work that gets taken on and needs to be done
by X people in Y time.

~~~
Ididntdothis
Yeah. It's like overloading people constantly and then offering mediation
classes so people can cope.

~~~
wojciii
Wait .. this is exactly what my workplace is doing. I didn't attend the
meditation because they clashed with my therapeutic daily walk..

~~~
Ididntdothis
My meditation teacher told me that the result of meditation shouldn’t be to
tolerate BS but instead realizing that it is BS and changing things.

------
agloeregrets
What is funny about this is that Atlasssian’s Jira product is designed for two
week “sprints”, a term referring to the idea of running quickly at a rate
above a sustainable pace with no intent to keep running after the end.

But these sprints normally are done repeatedly with no actual stop or sight of
a finish line.

Employees just churn through tickets with no designed breathing room or
planned downtime. Jira is probably one of the biggest helpers at causing
burnout with all of those burn down charts and story point comparisons,
driving companies and employees to not support taking reasonable time off or
spending time at lower pressure to encourage employee wellbeing.

Basecamp’s team wrote a guide to their take on this process and why they
rejected it called “Shape Up” which seems pretty pie in the sky but makes some
incredibly good points on maintaining team happiness, culture and quality of
work.

~~~
vfc1
In JIRA your performance is constantly measured comparing the actual work
against the estimates, which are usually not under the developer control.

There are reports produced that developers don't get to see that the manager
does to compare developers this way.

Of course, this can be easilly gamed. The most cunning developers will go out
of their way to get the tasks that are clearly defined in scope and that they
are familiar with, while others always end up getting the short end of the
stick.

Guess who is going to look better under that report. Developers are
overloaded, and will actually avoid to raise new issues or suggest
improvements and new tasks, with fear that they will get more work on top of
the workload that they can't already handle.

JIRA is really used by middle management to treat developers as essentially
replaceable assembly line workers in a factory context.

~~~
gonzo41
I'm a big critic of Jira for this reason.

I think the more fundamental issue is that most businesses that existed before
and after digitization don't really understand or appreciate that they are
alive because of that transformation.

Most tech enabled companies do not understand that competent IT execution is
important to their ability to have freedom of movement and the ability to
respond to change in their markets.

Also Developers think developing is important, but also business thinks
business is more important and they got by with paper and phones for a long
time before computers turned up.

Both are fair points.

I would say that quality of life at work (in tech) is a function of how much
the business thinks that the work you do is important. Is IT a cost center or
a capability factory where you work?

In start ups and tech focused companies the core work is technology so it's
easy to understand the investment. But places where IT isn't core work,
developers are just cogs. They get treated like crap and are made to sprint
because who cares, the 'actual' business is important.

Lastly, IT workers talk a big game about Unions but I'd really like to see the
day where a strike by IT workers starts with them walking off the job after
turning off the network.

I think Atlassian is the Uber of the software development process and devs are
the drivers.

------
vfc1
Burnout is an inevitable consequence of the modern workplace for a lot of
people. A lot of those who don't have any problem with burnout are the ones
burning out other people.

In the modern workplace, workers are often given a task without being given
the good conditions to take it through, or a good overview of the context that
the task is part of.

A good percentage of the tasks but not all are hot potatoes, and it can get
very political (in some places this is worst than others, but its always
there).

You get to the office in the morning and have new 10 trouble tickets assigned
to you, with estimations of 2 or 3h of execution time over which you have no
control, estimated by a clueless middle manager who has never coded the
simplest of programs in his/her life.

If you make too many waves or comments about the length of the tasks, you are
not going to last long and you know it, so what do you do?

Stay late, take shorter breaks, connect one hour in the evening to get a
couple more things done or do some preparation work like analysis, reading
documentation, answer emails, etc.

If you don't do that, you know that it's a fast track to performance
improvement program which is essentially a death sentence.

I think the problem is the system and not people, the current
employer/employee social contract is needing a huge rehaul because society is
coming to a breaking point which all these jobs disappearing due to automation
and informatisation in general.

~~~
dominotw
> a clueless middle manager who has never coded the simplest of programs in
> his/her life.

I've never had manager who hasn't coded ever in his life. WhatI had most of
the time was a manager who hasn't coded in a longtime.

~~~
vfc1
I've had both, and I don't know what is worst to tell you the truth. The ones
who have coded a long time ago think that their experience in another
language/ecosystem still allows them to estimate tasks in a completely
different environment, when in fact it doesn't.

The non-technical manager will focus more on the business side and will be
easier to manage in many situations, but the problem is that that type fo
manager will neglect tasks that are purely linked to technical debt,
refactoring etc that don't add new functionality to the system but are still
really important.

~~~
bitL
I had a manager with a PhD who insisted on never writing multi-threaded
applications because when he tried he failed and considered them dangerous. I
routinely wrote apps using 10,000+ threads before. Now he is a head of
development of some company. Real life is a comedy.

~~~
john_fushi
Just create child processes with a shared memory region. That's not multi-
threading.

~~~
outworlder
Hah, I've used the forking server approach very successfully before.

Plus, threads and processes are essentially the same on unix land – kernel
flags will control behavior like shared memory. Which you can still setup
manually. Or just use whatever IPC fancies you.

------
mrfredward
>Quick...tells his students he’s always available – except between 10pm and
6am. It’s important to put limits on when you’re reachable, he says.

Really...this is their example of healthy boundary setting? A professor who
says he's available the entire time he's awake, but won't answer emails when
he's supposed to be sleeping.

~~~
JeanMarcS
I thought the exact same thing reading this.

Average healthy sleep time is 8 hour a day. Even if it's less for some, this
professor can be disturbed when he eats ? When he is in his shower ?

Seems strange to me.

~~~
Balgair
Depends on the discipline.

Math professors aren't known for showering :)

~~~
qntty
Given how many math problems are solved in the shower I would think it would
be the other way around

------
bitwize
> * You’ve become cynical or critical at work

> * You drag yourself to work and have trouble getting started

> * You’re irritable or impatient with co-workers, customers or clients

> * You lack the energy to be consistently productive

> * You find it hard to concentrate

> * You lack satisfaction from your achievements > * You feel disillusioned
> about your job

> * You use food, drugs or alcohol to feel better or to simply not feel

> * Your sleep habits have changed

> * You’re troubled by unexplained headaches, stomach or bowel problems, or
> other physical complaints

You say "burnout symptoms", Corporate says "reasons to fire you". Potato,
potahto.

------
skizm
None of this advice really addresses the core issue: people don’t want to be
on other people’s schedule nearly all the time for 30+ years of their adult
life. It’s relentless and soul crushing. I get 4 weeks off a year, and even if
I take them all in a row, the only thing I can think of once my vacation
starts is “the clock is ticking till I have to be back in the office.” And
that’s always in the back of my mind no matter what and will be till I retire
or somehow figure out a way to get fuck you money. No amount of meditation,
saying no, time management etc., can fix that. I basically have no control of
my life until then. Is there any fix to this? Can there be any fix really?

My plan now is just to save aggressively until 40 or so, then either lean FIRE
or switch to a 6 month on 6 month off contracting schedule.

The only other option I can think of is take a job I might enjoy. But all
those kinds of jobs pay poorly (relative to a software engineer’s salary), so
I’d be locking myself into the working world for an extra decade or longer.

Edit: I should note that I realize I am extremely fortunate to be in the
situation I am. I don’t mean to sound like I’m ungrateful for a lot of the
things in my life.

~~~
ThrowawayR2
> _My plan now is just to save aggressively until 40 or so, then either lean
> FIRE..._

This is the real answer to preventing burnout: focusing on getting to
financial independence starting from the very first day you start your career.
There is nothing more liberating and comforting than knowing you don't have to
stay at your job one moment longer than you feel like it.

Granted, it's not an option for everyone because of their life circumstances,
but it is for most people in the software industry.

------
dredmorbius
Where and how specifically does Jira build in stress and burnout metrics and
avoidance mechanisms into its tools and techniques?

And when is it going to mandate a change of langauge in Scrum from "sprint" to
some word vastly more reasonable in designating a staged, sustainable, work
effort?

The English language is in dire need of an idiom connoting the fox advising
the henhouse. This post lacks all credibility.

~~~
aklemm
"Sprint" isn't supposed to be sustainable. It acknowledges that for brief
periods we set aside distractions/maintenance/cleanup and make progress and
THEN back off to a state that lets us recuperate the whole environment. Or it
should, anyway.

~~~
dredmorbius
If an activity is not meant to be sustainable, then stop using a word
literally meaning "A burst of speed or activity" for prolonged, iterated, no-
reprieve workfactor increments.

(See above Humpty Dumpty "glory" quote.)

------
agumonkey
[https://web.archive.org/web/20190731183556/https://www.atlas...](https://web.archive.org/web/20190731183556/https://www.atlassian.com/blog/productivity/work-
burnout-symptoms-and-prevention)

in case the original stalls

------
Balanceinfinity
Step 1: TAKE YOUR VACATION!! - every minute allowed, every year. If they won't
give you a chance to recharge your batteries, look elsewhere.

~~~
mikelyons
And do what with it? For many of us burnout is tied to depression is tied to
lack of a mate, hobby, social circle, life purpose. What outside of work is
even worth doing? Seems like all I can think about outside of work is how
badly I just want this all to be finished.

~~~
andrew_gardener
Might be stepping out but I think you've already identified quite a few things
that can be worked on in order to help yourself out.

hobby - honestly just try a bunch of different things for a while and you
might be surprised what you like. Take up gardening, hobby games (build/paint
miniatures and play 40k, battletech, etc.), hiking, really anything that
requires some focus and a bit of work. In a lot of cases its more about having
something to do other than work and being tired/lazy/depressed at home vegging
out and/or getting into a worse headspace.

mate/social circle - honestly this can be hard (especially if you’re really
introverted) but getting into a hobby can open new doors. Also think about
getting a pet or two. Animal companionship can really be more than a
substitute for other people and fill you with all sorts of joys.

life purpose - this is really hard but honestly you and in complete control
over this if you push yourself hard enough. Literally just choose something.
It can even be to just live as long as possible despite any shitty
circumstances (doesn’t have to be some grand unachievable goal).

I really hope I'm not stepping out of line but your message seemed like a call
for help. I've had my own long spells of depression and some of the above have
helped me a lot. Please also consider getting in contact with professional
help if it’s really getting bad. Forget about shame, nervousness, or whatever
had headspace your currently in, your life is 100% worth more than any of
that.

~~~
mikelyons
The first time I heard all of this advice was 20 years ago, and people just
repeat it every week for years on end ...

------
burnt_husk
Disclosure: I used to work at Atlassian. I've been reading HN for years
without an account but this one triggered me to comment.

I suffered burnout there. I had the misfortune of working as an "SRE" at
Atlassian. The reality was you spent your days, nights, and weekends dealing
with major incidents.

I do not know if it was a conscious strategy, but it would seem the approach
taken to reduce organizational wide pager fatigue and burnout from out of
hours work was to _concentrate it on a few_.

(My guess is that it was conscious, as that best explains why my cries for
help whilst falling on seemingly sympathetic ears, yielded no changes.)

------
CalRobert
All of this advice would be great if following it didn't mean you would be
next to get fired.

They forgot "unionize".

Remember, every time you attend a meeting while on your vacation, or answer an
email at 10 PM, you're normalizing that behaviour. You're telling your boss
it's OK to demand it of everyone.

------
asdfman123
> Job burnout is an epidemic, and tech workers are especially at risk. Here’s
> how you can avoid feeling fried – and what employers can do to de-stress
> their workforce.

Insane work hours and constantly availability is the epidemic here. Workers
can de-stress their workforce by refusing to be available for more than 40
hours a week, and not worrying about doing outside projects if they don't feel
like it. Employers can de-stress their workforce by not asking for more than
40 hours a week.

> Quick, who is also a professor at the University of Texas at Arlington,
> tells his students he’s always available – except between 10pm and 6am

This is the solution to burnout? Telling people you are not available to
answer emails and send over quick spreadsheets when you're literally asleep?

------
bobloblaw45
I experienced burnout the first time I went to college. This was after years
of school though having changed majors and transferring/lost lots of credits.
And I mean a LONG time was spent I really should have taken a year or two off.
Busting my rear end while having to be broke and slumming it for years on end
with no rewards took its toll. At the end I was just pulling myself out of bed
and going through the motions and not really caring about grades anymore.
Burnout never crossed my mind since it's always something you associate with
high stress jobs. Turned out it was a very expensive misunderstanding.

------
GrumpyYoungMan
> " _So serious in fact that in May, the World Health Organization (WHO)
> announced that the next version of its handbook of diseases, the
> International Classification of Diseases (ICD11), will recognize [burnout]
> as an official “occupational phenomenon” that could drive people to seek
> medical care._ "

Eh, what? I thought ICD-10 already had a code for occupational burnout: Z73.0.
([https://icd.codes/icd10cm/Z730](https://icd.codes/icd10cm/Z730))

~~~
metaphor
Z73 appears to be "Problems related to life management difficulty". I presume
they meant something more explicit like coding under Z56, "Problems related to
employment and unemployment".

------
altras
I've battled severe burnout after my first startup :( Almost 8 years down the
road and numerous other startup fails now I believe teams can do a better job
with burnout symptoms within colleagues [1]. Please be mindful for your
buddies. They may not have the energy to pull out themselves \/

[1] [https://medium.com/camplight/what-can-we-do-to-prevent-
teams...](https://medium.com/camplight/what-can-we-do-to-prevent-teams-from-
burning-out-ac68e7649e8c)

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
Makes sense but most of these aren't really actionable unless you're at the
top. Other than quitting to find a better culture of course. For example, 3.
Manage your digital distractions, mentions Tim Cook. I'm sure he can decide to
cut down on his notifications, but if you're working at a place where Slack is
used, there's 100 channels and you're expected to respond quickly by the
management, your only choice is to leave.

------
notus
This is just really generic advice that most people would come up with
themselves by thinking about it for a while. I feel like this a constant
problem with these advice blogs. I've learned so much from books like How to
win friends and influence people, feeling good, meditations, etc. Yet I rarely
ever see that advice repeated anywhere, they just go for really low hanging
fruit and not a lot of thought is put into it.

~~~
mikelyons
Original thought is too expensive for blogs that have to churn out topical
content to make ad revenue, so they become consolidations of common sense.

------
artsyca
Number one cause of burnout is organizations adopting Atlassian products and
treating the process like some sort of finite state automaton

------
gloo
Burnout is real indeed!

[https://burnout.so](https://burnout.so)

~~~
slx26
> "Be the first to experience Burnout before everyone joins in"

I mean...

~~~
52-6F-62
It gets better!

> _Track vacations and plan burnouts._

That just doesn't sound healthy.

~~~
tablet
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZW-
AZ2mNeA&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZW-
AZ2mNeA&feature=youtu.be)

~~~
52-6F-62
Canadian curse. I'm barred (read: geofenced) from watching official SNL
channels.

------
pier25
As someone who hasn't taken a vacation in almost 4 years... yeah this sounds
familiar.

Thankfully I'm ending my current job in a couple of weeks and will take a
couple of free months before starting my next adventure.

------
ticmasta
>> Job burnout is an epidemic

Start of sub-title.

def: a widespread occurrence of an infectious disease in a community at a
particular time

So a wide-spread, non-infectious phenomena that has been occurring...
forever?, doesn't really meet the definition.

I'm not debating this is a real thing nor that it may be more prevalent, but a
bunch of generic tips that put the entire responsibility on avoiding burnout
onto _me_ seems likely to increase the risks rather than address them...

~~~
gerbilly
Most of western propaganda is aimed at preventing class consciousness and
solidarity from forming between workers.

------
topherjaynes
I'm glad Atlassian is calling attention to this, but I'd love to see them
incorporate tools and features into their products that could help identify
and measure these recommendations. Most of the data is there, but we just need
to expose views of worker metrics and not solely focus on projects. A teams
burnout indicator would be just as important as velocity report.

------
CzarnyZiutek
Fitter, healthier and more productive.

A pig In a cage On antibiotics

------
dlphn___xyz
poor leadership always leads to burnout

------
jackvalentine
I have everything on their list and I'll be talking to my director next week
about making some changes. Thanks for posting.

------
bigYahnz
I've felt like I've had serious burnout for almost four years now. We've lost
about 70% of our development team with no plans on filling the positions
they've left open. We've not had a manager for over two years now. Haven't had
a project manager for over two years. Our workload constantly increases. I
recently got done with a stint of 45 days straight. Down to only 6 days a week
now, but will be back to 7 before the end of the year to meet deadlines. I
work for a healthcare company that is top 5 in size in the country. Our CEO
had record compensation last year. I'm very excited by that. I love
technology! What an interesting and exciting job.

------
orangetang
Everything should be done in balance.

