
Researchers: Artificial Sweeteners Prevent Weight Loss - rhapsodic
http://www.dw.com/en/sugar-free-products-stop-us-getting-slimmer/a-36504096
======
niels_olson
Phenylalanine is one of the 20 amino acids required for life as we know it.
You are exposed to many times more phenylalanine when you eat high-protein
foods compared to an entire 12 pack of diet soda.

Phenylketonurics have to track their phenylalanine consumption, so there are
several easy-to-use look-up tables for the amount of phenylalanine in various
foods (1).

Diet soda (2) is a rounding error compared to soy, legumes, and meats. Show me
a healthy diet without soy, cheese, whole grains, eggs, or legumes and I'll
show you someone who's trying too hard to show me something.

(1) [https://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/high-
phenylalani...](https://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/high-
phenylalanine-foods.php)

(2)
[http://static.diabetesselfmanagement.com/pdfs/DSM0310_012.pd...](http://static.diabetesselfmanagement.com/pdfs/DSM0310_012.pdf)

~~~
colordrops
The article just states that the researchers suspected a mechanism of action
that involves phenylalanine, but the experiment doesn't actually say anything
about what the actual mechanism is. Anyway, aspartame isn't even phenylalanine
or anything else that can be found in nature.

~~~
bunderbunder
Aspartame is composed of aspartate, phenylalanine (two amino acids) and a
methyl group.

After you ingest it, it's easily broken down. What your body actually absorbs
are the component parts, all of which are ubiquitous in nature.

~~~
jpfed
Forgive my ignorance, but it's not like that methyl group just becomes a free
radical, right? Does it stick to either the aspartate or the phenylalanine,
and if so, wouldn't that potentially change the body's reaction?

~~~
fghgfdfg
From a quick google search, it appears the methyl group gets converted to
methanol.

~~~
photogrammetry
Which we all know has no ill effects whatsoever.

/s

~~~
bunderbunder
In very high quantities, yeah, it's bad. Just like everything, including water
and oxygen.

In small amounts, your body can handle methanol just fine. Which is fortunate,
because it's present in many foods at much higher levels than what you'd get
from drinking a can of Diet Coke.

------
broahmed
Related thought: Before I switched majors to CS, I was taking pre-med classes.
I remember my anatomy and physiology professor telling us that the pancreas
produces insulin the moment the tongue tastes something sweet. One of my fears
is that these "diet" sodas are causing the drinkers' bodies to release insulin
needlessly; in other words, lots of insulin in the bloodstream but no sugar to
digest. I wonder if this could lead to insulin resistance and diabetes.

The article hints at this [1], but I haven't researched the issue very deeply.
I'd be curious if other HNers know something about this.

[1] "We previously showed [this enzyme] can prevent obesity, diabetes and
metabolic syndrome [a disease characterized by a combination of obesity, high
blood pressure, a metabolic disorder and insulin resistence]. So, we think
that aspartame might not work because, even as it is substituting for sugar,
it blocks the beneficial aspects of IAP."

~~~
jpindar
It might be interesting to get a blood glucose monitor and see if someone's
blood sugar level changes after drinking a diet soda.

~~~
stormbrew
It's worth noting that diabetics often do this almost as a matter of course.
If diet soda were spiking diabetic people's insulin, they would almost
certainly know.

Some of the most avoid consumers of diet soda I've known are diabetics who
checked their blood sugar multiple times a day at least.

~~~
wlievens
Avid|Avoid makes for a pretty big difference here :-)

~~~
stormbrew
Avid is what I meant. My cell phone keyboard apparently disagreed. ;)

------
Erikun
They seem to work hard to hint that aspartame can prevent weight loss, but are
there actually any studies that show that? There are plenty that show that it
has the same effect as drinking water.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12324283](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12324283)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2349932](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2349932)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7146134](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7146134)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20303371](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20303371)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9022524](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9022524)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2178391](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2178391)

And the same for rats

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11890951](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11890951)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3190217](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3190217)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15159141](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15159141)

 _edit_ Found an overview of the evidence for:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892765/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892765/)

~~~
Rasco
In the paper they list two studies.

Stellman et al. 1988 :
[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/00917435869...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0091743586900897)

Fowler et al. 2008 :
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18535548](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18535548)

------
cbgb
From the abstract [0]: "Conclusions: Endogenous IAP’s protective effects in
regard to the metabolic syndrome may be inhibited by PHE, a metabolite of
aspartame, perhaps explaining the lack of expected weight loss and metabolic
improvements associated with diet drinks."

Can someone explain to me what I'm missing here? What is the "expected weight
loss," and what are the expected "metabolic improvements associated with diet
drinks"? As far as I'm concerned, one should expect neither metabolic
improvements nor weight loss simply from consuming diet soda.

[0]
[http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/apnm-2016-03...](http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/apnm-2016-0346#.WDotQaIrKHp)

edit: forgot footnote link

~~~
logicallee
the title we've been given and the abstract you just quoted fits with my prior
that the sugar industry pays for such studies. after all it's obvious that
someone who drinks diet sodas isn't getting more Calories than on the
packaging, whereas if they drank sugared drinks it would be a huge source.

maybe water would be better as far as "expected weight loss" but it's
obviously false that diet soda can prevent weight loss. (unless it takes away
a person's will to exercise and takes away a person's ability to make correct
calorie-related choices.) If someone is active and eating less than they're
using, or exercising heavily and especially building muscle, it's obvious that
drinking any amount of diet soda won't inhibit these processes, since people
do it all the time.

since you've read and quoted the abstract, could you suggest a title for the
mods that's even vaguely true?

~~~
beloch
" among the groups that received a high-fat diet, the mice that drank the
sweetener solution became considerably heavier than those who drank plain
water. However, the blood sugar level was higher than normal in all of the
mice that received sweetener solution. "

In mice, at least, it seems that the artificial sweetener helped them
accumulate more fat than mice who were given water and the same diet. So,
aspartame may act like an obesogen[1] in mice.

If you think this is hard to believe and that calories in are calories in,
consider diabetics. If untreated, they excrete sugars to the point where they
have difficulty maintaining weight on a diet that would make somebody else
quite fat. The body's chemistry is complex and, as far as I can tell, not well
understood at all, especially when it comes to diet. There seems to be a lot
more funding available to develop drugs and procedures to treat illness than
there is to optimize (relatively) healthy peoples' diets.

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesogen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesogen)

~~~
logicallee
I still didn't click through but you do not suggest a title. Can you summarize
in a neutral way? Maybe "on a high-fat diet, artificial sweeteners may
exacerbate weight gain?" Is that fair?

~~~
logicallee
While I was downvoted, 12 hours later Reddit managed to post a much more
accurate title (which made its front page). This is Reddit's title:

>Low-calorie sweetener use is independently associated with heavier relative
weight, larger waist, and higher prevalence and incidence of abdominal
obesity, suggesting that low-calorie sweetener use may not be an effective
means of weight control, based on a study of 1,454 participants over 10 years.

This makes total sense to me. It is not fair to summarize this as "prevents
weight loss."

------
jcoffland
Most people are bewildered when I tell them I stopped eating sugar. I gave up
sweets and sweeteners about two years ago. I cannot say that it has
drastically changed my life.

I read one of the many articles on HN about the dangers of sugar and began to
ask myself why I felt the need to "treat" myself with sweets? Ultimately I
decided that I didn't need it and learning to exercise discipline would likely
help me in other areas of my life. I believe it has.

Edit, related articles:

[http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/10/27/cutting-sugar-
impro...](http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/10/27/cutting-sugar-improves-
childrens-health-in-just-10-days/)

[http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/01/the-
sugar-...](http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/01/the-sugar-
addiction-taboo/282699/)

[https://www.fastcompany.com/3050319/lessons-learned/how-
givi...](https://www.fastcompany.com/3050319/lessons-learned/how-giving-up-
refined-sugar-changed-my-brain)

[https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-
co...](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-
robert-lustig-john-yudkin?CMP=share_btn_tw)

[https://www.wired.com/2014/08/what-makes-us-
fat](https://www.wired.com/2014/08/what-makes-us-fat)

~~~
mrfusion
More silly questions. What do you do on Halloween? What would you do if you
went to the Cheesecake Factory? I really feel compelled to order cheesecake
there :-(

~~~
wccrawford
As part of my weight loss, I was already on a track to stop eating as much
refined sugar. I found that when I cut down on carbs, I got fewer migraines. I
now find that when I eat refined sugars, I'm pretty much guaranteed to get a
migraine soon after. Naturally, I've stopped.

I still eat carbs. Probably more than is wise, even. But I absolutely avoid
cake, ice cream, candy, and anything else with refined sugar. Yes, it was hard
even after I realized the migraine thing, but I've been off it long enough (6
months?) that I no longer crave it like I use to. I put Stevia on my cereal
(instead of the sugar I used to put on it) and it's good enough. Other than
that, I basically avoid sweets. (Oh, I do drink Diet Mt Dew. So there's that.)

And I'm happier for it, in the end. I don't gain weight from it, I don't feel
compelled to eat crappy cheap-ass cake from grocery stores at birthday
parties, and (of course) I get fewer and less-severe migraines.

I heartily recommend getting off sugar long-term.

~~~
brianwawok
Sound like my diet.

You don't really miss it.

Only annoyance is how many foods sneak in sugar. But I guess that is the whole
point of this, to limit what we eat.

Current ban in my diet is sugar and fried stuff, dairy is in the emergency
only line..

------
ChuckMcM
Link to the paper's publication :
[http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/apnm-2016-03...](http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/apnm-2016-0346)

Haven't picked up the actual paper yet.

------
entee
A few problems with the rather sensationalist headline:

1.) As others have said, mice are not people. Mouse metabolism is quite a bit
faster than humans, so let's not get too hasty about conclusions. It might be
real, but this is suggestive of further research, no more.

2.) The concentration of aspartame in soda is quite low (aspartame is many
fold sweeter than sugar). From the article:

"However, aspartame does not block the enzyme directly. It does so through one
of its intestinal breakdown products called phenylalanine."

Phenylalanine is a regular old amino acid. I'd have loved to see whether the
same effects are recapitulated when you feed high-phenylalanine foods, an
alternative test of the hypothesis.

3.) From the article:

"The amount of sweetener solution given to the normal diet group was
equivalent to a human drinking three-and-a-half cans of soda a day. For the
high-fat group it amounted to the equivalent of two cans."

"In the end, there were hardly any noticeable differences between the two
groups of mice that were fed a normal diet."

They go on to mention that there were some possible glucose sensitivity and
inflammation differences, but these are hardly conclusive findings. Again,
more research, particularly in humans, is warranted.

They also talk about effects on the high-fat mice, which is fine as far as it
goes, but again, see number 1.)

All in all, I think deep breath, some caution, and looking at studies that
actually involve humans might be warranted before such strong claims are
believed.

Here's a few (some open, some closed) that look at aspartame and human diet:

[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/00319384909...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0031938490902542)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24595225](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24595225)

And here's a fascinating article on a new human hormone that has been found
the old fashioned way (genetic anomaly) in regulating appetite and metabolism:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/25/opinion/sunday/the-thin-
ge...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/25/opinion/sunday/the-thin-
gene.html?_r=0)

~~~
entee
Small edit: I should have made clearer what I meant by metabolic rate.
Metabolic rate in terms of heat produced per day increases as a function of
mass, so humans have a higher metabolic rate by a good bit than mice. See
Kleiber's law:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleiber's_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleiber's_law)

However, this relationship scales sub linearly (exponent is ~3/4), so a human
is actually more efficient (in terms of converting food to energy for living
whose waste then gets radiated as heat). Essentially the concept stands, a
mouse's metabolism works differently (apparently generating more heat) than a
human's, and we should be careful about how we compare the two.

------
bkjelden
Minimizing (going from 3-4 cans of diet soda a day to 1-2 a week, on average)
my artificial sweetener consumption has made it considerably easier for me to
control my appetite.

I've finally been able to lose weight after years of being pretty much stuck.
I'm following pretty much the same dietary guidelines (eat lots of fruits and
veggies, minimize starches, make sure to get enough fat), but it's working
this time because I have so much more control of my appetite. I just don't
crave food, especially sweets, the way I used to. And when I do eat poorly, I
feel much worse afterwords.

Cutting out diet soda was very hard though, I didn't realize how reliant on
the 'sweet' I was until I tried to quit.

~~~
dimino
I am sure your personal journey has a great deal of value to you, but why do
you share this with us? It should be clear that there are _thousands_ of
variables at play in your story, and the suggestion that artificial sweetener
is responsible for your inability to lose weight seems like a completely
unsupported leap.

------
philfrasty
Websites like this should be forced to actually link to the original study. No
credits given that day (and still making money with other peoples content...).

~~~
jcoffland
And who would do the forcing?

~~~
fortyseven
The audience. By not sharing the content, at least. (Though, that's just a
fantasy, admittedly.)

------
hannob
This was a study in mice.

That doesn't mean it's not legit research, but one should put this in
perspective. At best this can give hints for further research. It's very far
fetched to make statements about effects in humans based on mice studies.

------
kseistrup
The title here on HN is misleading. The article is not talking about all sorts
of sweeteners, it is talking about one specific sweetener — aspartame — in
sugar-free products.

------
blaze33
There's at least one study which said that artificial sweeteners led you to
eat more because your body had the impression to get sugar while having none,
leading to compensate by eating more. So there's that.

Sorry I don't have a link to the source but I saw this on HN at some point
this year.

------
Insanity
Anecdotal evidence here. Throughout my life I have been on diets various time,
never because of extreme obesity but like a lot of people in IT, I do not get
enough movement and over time gain weight. Thus every 2 years or so I end up
going on a diet to lose the weight that I have gained, and in the past I used
to mainly drink (sparkling) water when I did this, and always had positive
results.

Now I have been trying to diet again but instead of replacing my sugary drinks
with the "zero" version of them (coke zero to be specific) I _seem_ to lose
weight slower.

Could be a lot more factors in play, but my wife has been suggestion that even
those zero drinks have a negative effect on the diet, so she will enjoy this
article :-)

~~~
rhizome
Look into whether you might have anterior pelvic tilt (APT), what I call
"sitting disease," which causes your hips to tilt forward, making you look
like you have a big ol' gut. This is caused by the sitting position
(simplified) stretching out your backside and not stretching your frontside.
When you have a more neutral posture, your silhouette is much less "heavy"
looking. That is, it may not be that you have weight to lose so much as you at
a normal weight looks worse than it is.

At any rate, dieting will involve more than switching to coke zero. :)

~~~
Insanity
Oh I was unaware of that, but the way I set when working is far from
ergonomically good I fear.

My diet was never just switching my drinks luckily! :-)

------
SerLava
No fucking kidding. I'm exhausted by people who say they heard a rumor that
maybe aspartame has some secret hidden effect maybe- so it's better to suck
down gallons of syrup water we KNOW kills more people than... anything.

~~~
tripletmass
Those people and their R tuples of personal biometric data you're asked to
normalize! They should just mount scratch retinas and feet, and half of their
measurements would be logged without so much as a cellphone lens and IR webcam
to bother. If they came with instruments.

~~~
eagsalazar2
So true!

------
parenthephobia
The study found that mice who had aspartame-laced water _and_ ate a high-fat
diet (HFD) gained more weight than mice who had pure water but also ate a HFD.
All mice on HFD gained weight, though.

It also found that mice who eat a nutritionally balanced diet did _not_ gain
more weight whether or not they had aspartame.

We already know that people who are eating HFDs and hoping that diet soda will
magically cause them to lose weight are wrong.

But, it is possibly useful to know that aspartame may have a confounding
effect when combined with a high-fat diet.

------
andyfleming
Is it possible/likely that other sweeteners like sucralose and acesulfame
potassium do the same thing?

------
smrtinsert
My problem isn't that I choose diet coke for the 'health' benefits. I choose
it because its delicious.

~~~
mirekrusin
You called it right - problem. If you do fasting (no food, just water) for 72h
and after fasting put on the table your "delicious" Diet Coke and, let's say
V8 veggie juice and try both your body will tell you what's good. You won't be
able to drink sweetened drink.

------
fcoury
Does anyone know if this also applies to stevia and erythritol?

~~~
Eyght
The effect seems to be caused by a metabolite of aspartame, called PHE. So you
could check whether stevia or erythritol produces the same metabolite.

~~~
kyberias
PHE? That was not mentioned in the article. What was mentioned was
_phenylalanine_, which is one of the essential amino acids that the human body
needs but cannot synthesize itself. We MUST get it from food. It is present in
practically all the food (protein) we eat. Particularly good sources of
phenylalanine include eggs, chicken, liver, beef, milk, and soybeans.

------
icomefromreddit
"Researchers..." "...expert says" "A growing body of evidence..." "How Russia
hacked the election" and other ambiguities :

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word#Forms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word#Forms)

------
tkyjonathan
Is this a nod in the direction that its not specifically sugar that is the
problem, but the products that have either table sugar or artificial
sweeteners in them?

------
devereaux
Hopefully these results can be put to a good use in hospital, where extreme
weight loss is a problem for many diseases

------
mrfusion
Any chance this applies to erythritol, xylitol, or Splenda?

~~~
Skunkleton
[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070820175426.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070820175426.htm)

maybe?

------
ClassyJacket
I'd like to see them explain how this defies thermodynamics. If you aren't
ingesting the food energy you simply can't get fat from it.

Specifically I'd like to see this reproduced in humans.

~~~
fdsaaf
I don't understand why so many people have difficulty accepting that the
chemical environment can mediate appetite, and appetite is a key driver of
food consumption. Thermodynamics holds. What doesn't hold is the idea that you
exist as a consciousness independent of chemical inputs.

~~~
greglindahl
What you missed out on is feedback loops that affect your basal metabolism.
So: eat less, your body decides it is starving and reduces your basal
metabolism, you continue to eat less (better-than average willpower!), and...
you gain weight.

I'm a physicist, and I roll my eyes whenever anyone starts up with simplistic
arguments about humans, food, and thermodynamics. Thermodynamics holds, but
the system doesn't work the way you think it does.

~~~
fdsaaf
Can your body just "reduce your basal metabolism"? Where are the energy
savings? Is your body temperature lowered? I'm skeptical of the idea that
differences in "metabolism" can account for different results arising from the
same energy inputs.

~~~
DougWebb
Yes, your body temperature can be lowered, somewhat. Your temperature actually
varies over a pretty wide range all of the time, with daily cycles and in
response with your activities and things like fighting infections. But your
average temperature can trend higher or lower, corresponding to a higher or
lower basal metabolism.

Other things that can happen when your metabolism slows down are that you get
tired more often and more easily, your thought processes slow down, you sleep
more. This happens to everyone as they age, and it can also happen from
chronic stress, calorie restriction sufficient to trigger 'starvation mode',
and anything else that causes your body to try to conserve energy for
survival.

~~~
fdsaaf
What can be done to boost basal metabolism? A safer DNP? The current approach,
diet and exercise, although it may work in individual cases, is not effective
at the scale of public health.

