
Rats Dream About the Places They Want to Explore - antimora
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2015/06/26/rats-dream-places/
======
interfixus
For what it's worth, we kept pet rats for more than ten years, and I have seen
the brightest of them perform mental feats I'm not expecting anyone to
believe. Spatial modelling is clearly a rat speciality. One female, the
smartest rat I ever saw, wanted to keep a large piece of bread for herself.
The door into the cage had other rats loitering, so she went on a huge detour
to the back of the cage, obviously with a theory that there might be a door in
the corresponding position there. There wasn't, so she went back, picked up
the bread where she had stored it, just of sight of the others, and forced her
way through the main door. Watching it, we could have no doubt whatsoever this
was a thought out, reasoned plan. The route to the back of the cage was long,
complex, not obvious, and never before explored. On another occasion, she lied
to us for quite a while, and was only caught out one night when I happened to
see her at work. The food bowl was down to the least favourite bits, and she
was systematically cleaning it out, burying the junkfood under floor litter.
The moment the bowl was empty, she started banging and rustling to get our
attention, look, the bowl is empty, I'm starving. I realised she'd had me
fooled for several weeks where I hadn't seen any refused leftovers, and had
mistakenly believed the battle of stubborn wills to be over.

~~~
meowface
And yet most people have no issue with scientists torturing and mutilating
them en masse to test theories.

I understand the intentions are good, but I think it's a case where the ends
don't justify the means.

~~~
chockablock
For context, this particular study used a total of _4_ rats.

The rats used in an experiment like the linked one (done in the UK) would have
undergone a surgery with full anesthesia and sterile technique, with
prescription pain meds provided during recovery, and daily veterinary
oversight throughout their lifespan.

This procedure is of course not being done for the animal's benefit, but the
level of medical care and oversight is quite similar to that provided a human
who might need, for instance a deep-brain stimulator implanted.

Before any animals could even be ordered, the specific protocols used, (and
even the decision to use rats, and the number allowed to be used) would have
gone through a number of committees at the university, under national-level
oversight, and subject to laws and regulations designed to negotiate exactly
the tradeoffs we are discussing.

I guess I can see how a reasonable person could refer to this kind of
treatment as torture. But every scientist I know who works with animals takes
their responsibility to minimize harm to the animals they use very seriously.

There's a legitimate discussion to be had on this subject; and it is already
happening. The use of animals in research has changed a lot in the past
hundred years, and it will certainly change a lot in the future. I think it's
important for folks on both sides to avoid demonizing those who see the issue
differently. Believing that some animal research is worth the costs is not the
same as having "no issue with scientists torturing [animals] en masse"\--by
the way I disagree with the claim that most people feel that way.

Some reasonable-seeming #s for the US in this blog post:
[http://speakingofresearch.com/facts/statistics/](http://speakingofresearch.com/facts/statistics/)
. (Needless to say the # of animals used in research is dwarfed by, among
other things, the # of animals eaten as food, killed on highways, or poisoned
in the name of pest control.)

~~~
asciimo
... and then they were killed. The more we learn about other animals, the more
tragic this process becomes. In this case, the benefit is a vague possibility
for "some insight into what happens in the human mind during sleep." Not worth
it.

~~~
chockablock
Yes, 'used' is a euphemism for purpose-bred and then experimented on and then
killed. I am not trying to sugar-coat this by mentioning the efforts made to
minimize the suffering of the animals done as part of this process. It's a
hard truth.

Unfortunately with basic science it's not so easy as saying: research that
eventually benefits people is OK, but everything else is not worth it. To look
at this particular study: they are recording from cells in the hippocampus, an
area that experiences atrophy and degeneration in both schizophrenia and
Alzheimer's disease. There is a strong homology between rat and human biology
in this area: anatomically, physiologically, and even in disease states.

If you want to say that animal experimentation is _never_ worth it, then you
have to be willing to forgo whatever future benefits to humankind might accrue
from this research, and you have to be comfortable making this decision for
everyone else who might benefit. Ethically, you should probably also forgo any
medical treatment that was developed on the backs of animal research. (Though
you will still benefit from the eradication of many diseases and herd immunity
to others).

In terms of the scale and degree of suffering, and of ethics, I think there is
much more clear-cut ground to be won in encouraging people not to breed and
kill animals for food or sport, and in protecting wild animal habitat from
ecological degradation.

------
chippy
If humans also work this way - how would we design our computer systems?

We should design websites to show some of the content behind the paywall. Or
show the route paying users would take before asking for money.

~~~
Revex
I think you are right on the money here, friend. Whenever I'm purchasing
something online, I'm always curious how that transaction will take place...
sometimes so much as just "test purchasing" the item to see what will occur if
I actually decide to buy.

------
e12e
I find it interesting that the article implies that money are to humans as
cheese in a maze are to rats.

~~~
adlpz
And I find it quite enlightening that I spend a sizeable part of my money on
cheese.

We animals are not so different.

~~~
e12e
In my minds eye, I just saw a remake of Creature Comforts[1,2], where the
dialogue was not from real-life interview with people, but from hn. Tech
Creatures.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creature_Comforts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creature_Comforts)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmNymPocKro](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmNymPocKro)

------
confiscate
if the rat devotes 8% of its brain to imagining running around mazes in its
sleep

how many % of my brain stays awake at night imagining work-related and life-
related issues when i sleep?

ack no wonder i always lose sleep

------
curiously
man if a rat can dream, so can a Rhino who's fucking horn got cut off, so can
a dog being butchered for meat.

~~~
grossvogel
If we're going to get worked-up over meat, there's no reason to jump straight
to dogs. Over 100 million hogs a year are slaughtered in the US [1], compared
to about 25 million dogs worldwide [2].

1]
[http://www.thefarmsite.com/reports/contents/liveanapril12.pd...](http://www.thefarmsite.com/reports/contents/liveanapril12.pdf)

2] [https://litigation-
essentials.lexisnexis.com/webcd/app?actio...](https://litigation-
essentials.lexisnexis.com/webcd/app?action=DocumentDisplay&crawlid=1&doctype=cite&docid=21+Animal+L.+29&srctype=smi&srcid=3B15&key=d9029f1ccf66735779b5e3defa01b270)

