
The relationship between mindset and getting old - dnetesn
http://aging.nautil.us/feature/218/why-you-cant-help-but-act-your-age
======
robteix
I wonder how much the effects vary between different professions.

I'm in my 40s. Incredibly old for HN standards. And yet, I feel no nostalgia
for the "good ol' times." I mean, don't get me wrong I'm sure there's a lot of
things that set me apart from newer generations -- I don't get Snapchat at all
;) -- but I don't see me being happier by being put in a house set up to look
and feel like the 90s/80s.

Is it maybe because we as programmers tend to be less prone to be stuck to the
past? Just wondering

~~~
guelo
As a 40s hacker/entrepreneur what I miss most from the 90s was the feeling of
having a vast unexplored frontier with endless possibilities ahead of us even
for the little guys. These days, with the web and mobile revolutions maturing,
it feels like the 5 or so giant tech monopolies have locked up most of the
future potential. But maybe that feeling is part of having an older mentality.

~~~
Animats
Computing has become so banal. We used to be working on important problems.
"The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click
ads. That sucks." \- Jeff Hammerbacher, formerly at Facebook.

(There are more people working on important problems than in the 1980s.
Computer science research used to be about a hundred people each at MIT, CMU,
and Stanford, with a few smaller groups elsewhere, plus internal efforts at
IBM and Bell Labs. The whole field was tiny. Now, it's larger, but
overshadowed by the massive level of activity associated with ads.)

~~~
EthanHeilman
>Computing has become so banal. We used to be working on important problems.

1\. Blockchains/smart contracts,

2\. Garbled circuits/Snarks/MPC (Multi-Party Computation)

3\. IO/VBB Program obfuscation,

4\. FHE (Fully Homomorphic Encryption),

5\. Machine Learning/Vision,

6\. Global/Solar-scale performant and secure routing protocols,

7\. TEE (Trusted Execution Environments),

8\. Advanced P2P systems like IPFS,

9\. Bioinfomatiks.

...

~~~
saurik
I don't understand what you are trying to say with your answer, as the person
said "we used to be working on important problems" and you responded with a
list of random technologies. Technologies can sometimes be "problems", and
sadly often are :/, but that means that they were failed solutions.

A list of hard problems we could be tackling: 1) the world is going to run out
of fossil fuels, 2) we are destroying the human ecosystem by global warming,
3) there exists a very large amount of inequality between the upper and lower
class in our society and the gap is only increasing, 4) we have more and more
humans of whom society demands "work" to get "pay" in order to survive even as
we come up with ways of replacing more and more "jobs" with "automation", 5)
there are many subsets of our population divided by axes such as race and
sexuality which are discriminated against by others in both direct and
indirect systematic ways, 6) we have a limited number of antibiotics that are
generally safe for widespread usage and pathogens are adapting, 7) for
numerous and potentially diverse reasons an increasingly large fraction of our
society is being turned off of science and has stopped believing in basic
things like the benefits of even our oldest and most trusted vaccinations, 8)
humans continue to die from diseases like cancer, 9) governments and companies
have begun to usher in a dystopian era of surveillance under the guise of
protecting us from terrorists and spam and serving us advertisements.

A couple of these problems can be addressed with the technologies you listed,
but even in the core of some of these communities that want to address
problems 5, 7, and 9 you honestly just end up finding a lot of people who are
exacerbating problems 2, 3, 4, and (annoyingly) 9.

I despise the cloud :(. It was just so much harder for people to abuse the
crap out of us when the concept of a computer was something that, even if it
could connect to other computers to get information, was not something that
fundamentally relied on other computers and which stored all of its
information on other computers and could be remotely controlled by other
computers. We are to the point where arguing that I "own" the device on which
I am typing this message almost doesn't make sense: I am borrowing it from
Apple and I can only hope that they don't screw me too hard :(.

~~~
mowenz
Just nitpicking a bit about something I'm passionate about: Becoming a multi-
planetary species should at least be on that list, if not first item.

~~~
asdf55
To satisfy your imagination, let's coerce everyone to believe we can be a
multi-planetary species, nevermind that we only know of one planet that
support us without extensive engineering effort.

Are we even the same species with any of the same concerns by the time we get
to Alpha Centauri planet?

These notions still coming from the mouths of my generation are getting a bit
bonkers to me as I age.

Let's work towards a goal we'll never be able to validate actually happens, as
we'll be dead before we get close. Let's build a system that coerces people
towards that goal.

Let's chew up more and more of this planet researching and building towards
technologies and fucking over the next gen of humans here.

Because a generation that grew up watching Star Trek wished it would happen
real bad!

~~~
mowenz
What you are misunderstanding.

1\. The earth will still be inhabitable in the short run. Even with worst case
global warming x10. It will be a lot different, and probably not better, but
we can still survive here.

2\. 99% of human history people lived without liberties or human rights that
became a theme of anti-autocratic philosophies and cultures that grew out of
The Enlightenment to make the modern day world possible. Alan Turing would
have been tortured to death in earlier years. These last few hundred years may
very well be an anamoly, and while we know humans exhibit a tendency towards
immoral, autocraric leadership, we should take advantage of the fact we live
in the best 0.1% of time in history to develop such technology. It may be that
in the short run is the only foreseeable possibile time to become inter-
planetary.

3\. Competition is what propels human progress

4\. Global warming bureaucracies have the same problems the War on Poverty,
War on Drugs, and prohibition democracies have. All these problems could be
solved by your standard intelligent young adult, but they aren't because of
bureaucratic inertia and politics. They are problems of people and human
culture of greed.

5\. I don't watch Star Trek

------
michalu
I suspect the reason they felt better and more vital is that the change of
mindset and environment altered their biochemistry.

How we feel and what we think of ourselves affects our levels of Testosterone,
Cortisol, Serotonin, etc. Even a 5 minute conversation can give you a T boost
of 30%+ ... or believing that you're perceived as high status alters your
Serotonin. Those hormones in turn make you more vital.

So who knows what was the reason... maybe more social interaction with
strangers? Or simply putting their mind into a different, better place?

[http://www.ulm.edu/~palmer/TheBiochemistryofStatusandtheFunc...](http://www.ulm.edu/~palmer/TheBiochemistryofStatusandtheFunctionofMoodStates.htm)

[http://www.cep.ucsb.edu/topics/courtship/roney%20et%20al_200...](http://www.cep.ucsb.edu/topics/courtship/roney%20et%20al_2009_proceedings%20b.pdf)

~~~
astrobe_
> Even a 5 minute conversation can give you a T boost of 30%

How is it different from taking drugs, really?

~~~
michalu
Not sure I understand what you mean. What kind of drugs?

~~~
astrobe_
What is the difference between taking artificial mood altering-drugs versus
engaging in behaviours that result in the production of "natural" mood-
altering drugs?

~~~
Bakary
From this literal definition the entirety of our lives could be defined as
simply "taking drugs". We chase the high by doing various things.

The difference between taking drugs and doing these things is that the reward
mechanism is the product of many years of evolution, whereas drugs can
sometimes produce harmful side effects due to not being fully fine tuned to
our own bodies' expectations.

The distinction would go away entirely if drugs were more sophisticated. But
in that case it would pretty much be the end of life as we've hitherto
experienced it.

~~~
RangerScience
I don't think you're quite correct.

I think it's more that experiences as "full-spectrum" \- they're occurring
within multiple modes - while (most) drugs are single-spectrum. Which makes
sense, most drugs are only trying to affect one thing - that's the goal.

If I jump out a plane, there' a lot more going on than the adrenaline spike.
If I take an epipen, there's not much more going on than the adrenaline spike.

------
dheera
It would be interesting to see how much of this is truly biological and how
much of it is due to societal and situational conditioning.

There were lots of things I could do in my 20s (e.g. refuse to use gasoline-
powered city transportation, refuse to patronize places that used disposable
cutlery, refuse to use non-free software, etc.) that I can't do when I'm in my
30s because people around me would think I'm a stubborn idiot, jeopardizing my
career at a point where I have not yet established myself. It's very easy to
tell a colleague, advisor, anyone at school that you're going to bike to the
destination or take electric-powered transit [because you don't believe in a
fossil fuel future]. It's very difficult to say the same thing to an investor,
co-founder, employee, customer, or whoever is offering you a ride in their
car, without feeling like an ass. I'm basically forced to be "normal" during
work times and fit into the mould of society. I can only be myself on evenings
and weekends.

I can only imagine how much more "being normal" I need to do if I had kids,
pets, tenants, or whatever. I don't have any of those at the moment. The other
night I was pondering over potential improvements to our music and
mathematical notation systems while staring at the Milky Way. (I didn't come
to anything conclusive, but I love thinking outside the boxes that society
defines for us.)

10 years ago, I could truly be myself 24 hours a day. I was basically learning
all kinds of things about the world by doing that. Now, I only get about 5
hours a day to be myself. The rest of the time, I need to conform. The lack of
"me" time itself may be contribute to some degree of mental rot/aging, apart
from the biological component.

~~~
dagss
All the examples you mention are on the "futile" side of actions to take
though. Like, if someone is driving a fossil car anyway, sharing a ride is
very eco-friendly. There is very little extra CO2 emitted by you getting into
the car.

However, you _can_ buy an electric car yourself (and share rides with it).
Noone would think you an ass for that. For those with a house, noone thinks
you are an ass for installing solar panels on the roof. Same with not taking a
plane on your next vacation, at least noone at work should get upset by that
(and friends/family can hopefully more easily understand it).

On the disposable plastics side, going for the vegetarian option with
disposable cutlery is orders of magnitude more eco-friendly than meat with
reusable cutlery. And vegetarianism is somewhat socially accepted. While on
the topic of symbolic actions, talking about it like a "50% meat reduction"
that has an easier chance of spreading socially may do more good in this world
than being strict about it -- better to have some influence and have 4 people
reduce 50% than 1 person reduce 100%. Again, the option that rubs people less
socially may be the rational optimum on the whole.

I.e., "conforming" doesn't mean you have to hide your concern for the
environment, it just means it is better to focus on rational actions that
actually make a difference (that others can easily understand), rather than
symbol statements that have little actual effect. The latter is what makes one
feel like an ass.

~~~
dheera
Oh sure. There are merits to all the things you are saying. There are also
arguments against it (I don't believe in the "The car is going to be driving
anyway, therefore you should use it" argument -- that's almost like saying
"Trump is going to be elected, might as well vote for him anyway". You should
vote for what you want.) But that's beside the point. And I am vegetarian by
the way ;)

I'm not trying to argue the merits of one choice or another. I'm only saying
that it's harder to make "wild and crazy" choices and follow through with them
when you're stuck in this thing called society and aren't "the boss" in some
capacity. You are part of various teams, which demand conformity in various
levels. But to me it's precisely the "wild and crazy" lifestyle that taught me
a LOT in my 20s.

Forget environmental topics for a second as it's too easy to get into a
debate. Another example is that I questioned why we have a 7-day week. I
worked a 10-day week for some time -- 7 days of work and a 3-day weekend.
3-day weekends enabled lots of fun trips that aren't possible in 2-day
weekends, and 7 days of work is a nice productive sprint. It worked great when
I could be "me". But now I need to go back to societal norms. With
responsibilities come aging.

------
sdenton4
It's an effect probably at least as real as ESP: [https://slate.com/health-
and-science/2017/06/daryl-bem-prove...](https://slate.com/health-and-
science/2017/06/daryl-bem-proved-esp-is-real-showed-science-is-broken.html)

Which is to say, I'm dubious as hell of this result: For something this click-
baity, at this point in the history of psychology research, I'mma need some
serious replication before I give itan ounce of belief.

------
TheOtherHobbes
In my 50s. Not exactly pickled in nostalgia.

I think the computing party is just getting started. Non-trivial domestic AI
will be here within a couple of years, personal robotics 5-10 years after
that.

The current ad mania sucks, but it's going to have to evolve or die.

I don't miss much of the past. Pocket phone computers, tablets, GPS, video
calling, massive data storage, and the potential of renewables and distributed
energy grids are all awesome. Like.

Even social has its moments.

The real problems are cultural and political. There's been some movement
there, but not nearly enough. The system has nearly enough energy to go
through a phase change soon, and that's when things will get really
interesting.

~~~
hyperpallium
AI; "nearly enough energy to go through a phase change soon"

I like the intriguing idea, that once we figure out AI, we could do some very
powerful things even on today's low-end phones (10's of GFLOPS).

OTOH The recent "deep learning" breakthroughs have, have come from throwing
resources at NNs. And it might be that we create AI long before we understand
it and are able to do it efficiently.

------
myth_drannon
I wonder if nostalgia is a human mind's hack to slow down aging.

------
afpx
I look forward to living to 100. But, 80 would be even better if only I could
regain a 12-year-old's sense of the passage of time.

~~~
Bakary
You can emulate a poor man's version of this by continuously trying new and
challenging things.

------
chiefalchemist
Kinda like a placebo effect, yes. It would be interesting to take a group of
slightly younger test subjects and see what happens to them when they live
with older people in the present.

Moi? The body and mind are both subject to: Use it or lose it. We also, as
humans, tend to assimulate into the norm around us, be it smoking, obesity,
and now I guess perhaps youth.

Finally, I have to wonder about the effects of essentially being on holiday.
In addition, perhaps the group discussions energized them? That is instead of
waiting to die, they had more reason to live? In any case, interesting.

------
ilaksh
[http://www.sens.org](http://www.sens.org) \-- after reading the article,
still by far the most scientific and fully developed approach that I have
seen.

------
theprop
Age may mean certain things about DNA methylation, but it doesn't mean you
can't continue inventing, challenging yourself taking chances e.g. 94 year-old
co-inventor of lithium batteries co-invents a solid state (solid-glass
electrolytes) battery.

[http://www.canadianmanufacturing.com/technology/94-year-
old-...](http://www.canadianmanufacturing.com/technology/94-year-old-lithium-
ion-battery-inventor-unveils-new-solid-state-breakthrough-186868/)

------
anentropic
Has anyone reproduced the results from this study of 49 people back in 1979?

------
DrNuke
Whatever your past, it is irrelevant now and future the only way forward, so
smile and enjoy your ride together with the people you love (mid 40s here and
still pushing, ehehe).

~~~
Bakary
In a way neither the past nor the future exist. There is only the present.

~~~
gerbilly
While I certainly agree that western people live too much in their heads,
ruminating on the past or worrying about the future, the past and the future
certainly do 'exist', in that the effects of actions in the past become the
cause of effects in the present or future.

------
reasonattlm
Physical activity is the likely mediating mechanism between acting younger and
gaining modest benefits by some measures. Since the development of lightweight
accelerometers, studies of physical activity have demonstrated strong
correlations between even modest activity of the housework/gardening variety
and health in old age. There is a mountain of further research demonstrating
the benefits of increased moderate exercise and lesser forms of activity in
older people.

But ultimately the end is the same. You can't reliably exercise your way to
90, even. The majority of people who are exceptionally fit die before reaching
that milepost in the environment of the last 90 years of medical technology.
The future of health and longevity in later life will be increasingly
determined by medical technology, and nothing else. Aging is damage, and that
damage can be repaired given suitable biotechnologies to do so.

DNA methylation patterns correlating strongly with age are a very promising
tool when it comes to assessing treatments for the processes of aging.
Companies offer various implementations now - see Osiris Green for a cheaper
example, to pick one. In the SENS view of aging as accumulated molecular
damage, epigenetic changes are a reaction to that damage; a secondary or later
process in aging. We'll find out over the next few years how the rejuvenation
therapy of senescent cell clearance does against this measure, now that things
are moving along there.

But you shouldn't think it impossible to construct useful metrics of
biological age more simply. There are a number of excellent papers from the
past few years in which researchers assemble weighted algorithms using
bloodwork, grip strength, and other simple tests as a basis into something
that nears the level of discrimination of the epigenetic clock.

When it comes to a biomarker of aging, there are lots of promising candidates.
Researchers will spend a lot of time arguing before they come to any sort of
pseudo-standard for that task. Industry (today meaning the companies
developing senolytic therapies for the clinic) will overtake them and, I'd
wager, adopt one of the epigenetic clocks because it basically works well
enough to get along with, and can be cheap in some forms.

~~~
chiph
Not to be "that guy", but I will credit strength training in helping my father
make it to age 92. What we found was that it increased his balance and
stability. Of course muscles use the skeleton as levers, and there's studies
that show that training will slow the reduction in bone density as you age. So
dad's training likely prevented his breaking bones when he did take a tumble.

This fellow is involved with training those over 50.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DDGOXkpZxI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DDGOXkpZxI)

------
coldtea
A man is as old as the woman he feels (G. Marx)

------
Schiphol
The experiment that kicks off the piece looks pretty replication-crisis
worthy.

------
kusmi
It's official, my boss really is feeding off my youth.

------
robertlagrant
Some of the article was okay (although you can cherry-pick a lot to achieve a
conclusion) but Langer's study in particular seemed very dubious. They "looked
younger"? Stop - that's just way too objective for me!

~~~
coldtea
> _They "looked younger"? Stop - that's just way too objective for me!_

What part of this kind of process:

 _they showed before and after pictures of them to third parties who didn 't
know them --nor did they know the order the pictures were taken-- and the
majority identified the latter as younger looking_

seems "too objective"?

------
jldugger
> getting old

'aging' is the word you are searching for

~~~
Fifer82
what is the difference?

~~~
lisper
One syllable.

~~~
lgas
I don't know, I think they mean the same thing, but "getting old" has the
connotation that it's towards the end of your life. That is, a baby is
constantly aging into a slightly older baby, but it's not getting old yet. A
thirty year old ages into a thirty one year old, but unless you're a teenager
you wouldn't generally say they're getting old yet. But someone who's retiring
and moving to florida? They're getting old.

Of course you might also say "you're getting old!" to say a fourteen year old
cousin that you haven't seen in a few years. It depends on context. But I
don't think they literally contain the same information except for syllables.

So I think jlduggers pedantry is misguided in this case.

------
ianai
Constant change does harm. That's my takeaway.

~~~
nostrademons
Curious how you got that out of the article? I didn't see anything in it that
seemed to suggest as such.

~~~
ianai
They seem to have been stuck in a year. I only briefly skimmed it though.

