
Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp reviews - gregman
https://www.facebook.com/SauceSF/posts/10151880503224575
======
nwh
Mirrors for when the original content inexplicably disappears.

Facebook post (OP's link): [http://archive.is/lIFF5](http://archive.is/lIFF5)

Negative reviews left: [http://archive.is/js6nY](http://archive.is/js6nY) and
[http://archive.is/hnMmA](http://archive.is/hnMmA)

The attackers reviews on Yelp:
[http://archive.is/Itdbw](http://archive.is/Itdbw)

~~~
ulisesrmzroche
Dang, they actually ARE carrying with that threat and giving them bad reviews?
That's so messed up. I didn't think that'd actually happen. Hope this gets
quelled quickly,but I'm bringing the popcorn and the lawnchair just in case.

~~~
obstacle1
To be fair, it doesn't look like _they_ are doing much. Rather this Andy
Johnston guy is going on a rampage to exact revenge for a perceived personal
slight.

I'd imagine Andy's actions expose his employer to many liabilities, but
there's no indication that Groupon condones these actions thus far.

~~~
ulisesrmzroche
I totally agree with ya'll. I'm not blaming Groupon, I should have been more
specific when I said 'they'. I mean the kid and his (real?) buddies. I don't
even think Groupon know what's going on right now since this is getting worse
by the minute.

I'm just saying they gotta hurry up because their customers are not blaming
this dude, they're blaming them directly, and it seems to be spreading really
fast. Some of those facebook comments have some real vitriol.

~~~
hellturtle
Cold callers seems to have similar (aggressive)attitude no matter where in the
world you are, not just Groupon. But some industries are more affected than
others...

------
usaphp
[http://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=hnH6RaPkJ2Tfw9ZkKMfL...](http://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=hnH6RaPkJ2Tfw9ZkKMfLmg)
see how many bad reviews he already wrote for Sause! I think his profile
should be flagged, you can't trust a person who does this kind of things.

Edit: He just changed his name to West C. what a guy :)

Another Edit: Just look at his reviews date - they all are written on July
29-30 - why would anybody write so many reviews unless you receive a
commission to do so?

~~~
ams6110
Does anyone really take unscreened "review" sites like Yelp seriously? I never
even bother looking at them.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
If I am in an unfamiliar town, sometimes I use "sites like Yelp". I definitely
take reviews with a grain of salt. Sometimes it [might be] better than
nothing.

~~~
pseut
"I don't normally like [style of restaurant] but this one was fantastic!" is
usually informative but not as intended.

------
ChuckMcM
And this is why there is a high turn over rate in sales, seriously.

The salesguy is clearly over the top aggressive and likely new to the
business. He will get let go, if he hasn't been already, and some other person
will replace him. If you deal with sales folks you will find the ones who have
had the most success in their career seem to push right up to the line and
_don 't_ cross it. This guy will no doubt re-calibrate and head back in
selling windows or something.

I expect it is the nature of sales, you measure someone on their completed
sales, period. You don't measure anything else and they will experiment with
different ways of maximizing that number, some of them illegal (see the
behavior of the Google sales guys in Africa [1] as an example) Businesses fire
the ones that generate ill will and keep the ones that don't.

[1] [http://memeburn.com/2012/01/mocality-scandal-mortified-
googl...](http://memeburn.com/2012/01/mocality-scandal-mortified-google-
confesses-apologises/)

------
jasonkester
This would be better titled "idiot gets himself fired (from Groupon)", since
it's unlikely that Groupon has a policy of threatening their customers in
writing, or much tolerance of employees who make it appear that they do.

Incidentally, "As a resident of San Francisco for over 25 years" is code for
"this is my first job out of college". Hopefully he'll be a little smarter by
the time he finds his second.

~~~
arbuge
It is not good to have this story come up for the rest of your life whenever
someone googles your name...

------
seivan
On his LinkedIn account: "Specialties Technology, Local commerce, Social
media, SEO, Online marketing, Consumer and retail marketing, Sales,
Salesforce, CRM"

How come every other scumbag tend to be everything above? Does it naturally
attract these sorts of people?

[http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andy-
johnston/41/81/119](http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andy-johnston/41/81/119)

~~~
barking
I'm not American but I thought Berkeley was prestigious and yet this
graduate's job is to cold call restaurants touting coupons. No wonder Andy's
mad!

~~~
auctiontheory
Even many Americans do not realize that Berkeley is a large state/public
school, and has far less resources for undergrad education than "private"
schools like MIT, Stanford, the "Ivy League," etc.

As far as I can tell, Berkeley's prestige is largely historical, and largely
based on the graduate programs, especially in science and engineering.
Undergrad engineering programs are also well-respected. Andy should have
majored in something other than "American Studies," whatever that is.

Source: I went there.

------
zackmorris
On a related note, yelp's been criticized for similar practices:

[http://eater.com/archives/2013/01/23/ftc-complaints-about-
ye...](http://eater.com/archives/2013/01/23/ftc-complaints-about-yelp-allege-
extortion-libel-more.php)

------
jseip
If Groupon sales management gets wind of this Andy will be terminated
immediately. I dealt with issues similar to this at LivingSocial (one rep
offered a positive Yelp review in exchange for a deal) and both legal and
sales know this is a very big no-no. Andy will have to re-learn business
ethics at another company.

------
ultimoo
I don't like that this thread is fast turning into a reddit style witch-hunt.

~~~
nosoc
Absolutely. Random people have found his Yelp, Linkedin, Twitter, and
Instagram. He also made the mistake of spelling out his name and detailed
contact information on the letter. I know that his threat is stupid at best
and harmful to Sauce's business at worst, but clearly he's young and
inexperienced. Having hundreds (thousands?) of people discussing, criticizing,
and examining your details online is terrible. I'm not too worried about
posterity, because he has a very generic name, but it could have been much
worse.

~~~
taigeair
I guess this is the online equivalent of a reality show...

------
beedogs
Groupon is one good class-action lawsuit away from nonexistence. Here's hoping
it comes sooner rather than later if this is the kind of tactic their salesmen
need to resort to now.

------
Bmusk
[http://www.yelp.com/biz/sauce-san-
francisco-2?sort_by=date_d...](http://www.yelp.com/biz/sauce-san-
francisco-2?sort_by=date_desc) (see Andy J's review)

~~~
benackles
Yelp needs a "Useless" flag. All kidding aside, the fact that a reviewer has
complete control to destroy a business reputation without any sort of
accountability or credibility is wrong. There's nothing saying that Andy has
ever physically visited this establishment. Of course a "Useless" flag would
be useless itself because every active business owner would flag every
negative review as "Useless".The unfortunate reality is that Yelp attracts
only the worst in human emotions. In this case, it wasn't even related to the
product or service.

~~~
tdwiegand
Maybe pointed out elsewhere, but it looks like Andy J's Yelp Friend Stephan S
was compelled to write a 1 star review on the same day. So it looks like he
followed through with that.

[http://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=BfVinuuuFVCAr77TnI9k...](http://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=BfVinuuuFVCAr77TnI9kyw)

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
Huh. Stephan only has 1 friend.

edit: Just noticed. I also have only one Yelp friend.

------
pearjuice
I always thought HN was full of professional people so it ashames me to see a
full blown witch hunt going on in this thread. Posting the guy his address,
Twitter and so forth? Mirroring his Instagram profile? Really? Has it come to
this?

------
PeterisP
Doesn't USA have any DoNotCall rules with some teeth, if, as the owner is
saying, he "... asked you twice to remove me from you call list, as I have
EVERY time I have been called by a representative from Groupon"?

In my place, this would mean that their customer acquisition costs would
skyrocket from fines for such incidents.

~~~
fiatmoney
Haven't checked, but it may not apply to businesses - I'd be surprised if a
company could opt all of its phone numbers out of all potential vendor calls.

~~~
qeorge
That is correct. Do Not Call (the USA law) does not apply to businesses.

We found a great remedy: answer their calls with a soundboard. We like the Mr.
Rogers soundboard [1]. Its fun, harmless, and they'll stop calling very
quickly.

[1]
[http://www.ebaumsworld.com/soundboards/play/1866/](http://www.ebaumsworld.com/soundboards/play/1866/)
(warning, autoplays some sounds)

~~~
avalaunch
The do not call law doesn't apply to nonprofits (including those seeking
political contributions). It most certainly does apply to businesses. For each
offense after asking to be placed on the do not call list you're entitled to
500-1500 dollars. You just need to take a lot of notes and take the offending
party to small claims court.

~~~
talklittle
Does not apply to businesses for _incoming_ calls, which is the relevant
interpretation of "applies to businesses" in this situation: a restaurant
business receiving unwanted calls from another business.

Of course it applies to _outgoing_ calls from businesses, as that's the entire
point of the law.

~~~
avalaunch
Ah. I see what you're saying. Thanks for the correction!

------
darkchasma
> "I have a huge network of friends (ages 25-40) that all are extremely active
> on Yelp"

Apparently, 10 people is a HUGE network.

~~~
smsm42
If he treats his friends like he treats his potential customers, 10 IS huge.

------
jusben1369
He's not saying "Use Groupon or I'll trash your business" he's saying "You
treated me poorly and now I'll get my revenge" This guy's a goofball for
putting it in writing but social media has definitely changed how businesses
have to treat whacky, unreasonable prospect's and customers. (The Groupon
angle is a red herring)

~~~
ulisesrmzroche
I don't think the prospect was unreasonable at all. Hanging up happens all the
time. It's whatever. The problem for Groupon is that this guy reps them. They
need to explain to their customers fast what happened because this looks viral
to me.

~~~
jusben1369
Oh right. Not defending the sales guy. Saying that all businesses are now
vulnerable to social media attacks by folks by folks who in the past you could
ignore. Should have been clearer.

~~~
SimHacker
The delicious irony is that HE was not only threatening but actually carrying
out a social media attack himself.

------
noonespecial
There should be a yelp-like service for rating people like this "salesman" so
that he doesn't accidentally get hired again.

~~~
cinquemb
Well here's a site… www.pictobar.com

But I'm not sure if this is what you mean. I'm curious to how you think one
can be quantified/qualified on a site to be useful to others.

------
ececconi
I wonder what this guys week will be like starting monday morning?

Is this HN story going to do anything negative to his career?

~~~
reustle
It's not only on HN, obviously. The FB commenters don't seem to happy.

~~~
ececconi
good point. his cell number seeems like a personal number as well. i wonder if
he's getting messages on it already.

------
droithomme
Isn't this a protection-money racket (extortion) from a legal perspective?

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_racket](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_racket)

> "Extortion is a criminal offense of unlawfully obtaining money, property, or
> services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion."

> "In the United States, extortion may also be committed as a federal crime
> across a computer system, phone, by mail or in using any instrument of
> interstate commerce."

[http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/business-
career/legal/what-...](http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/business-
career/legal/what-difference-between-extortion-and-blackmail?page=all)

> "What is Extortion? The use of threats to extract money from people is a
> crime in the United States..."

> "Which Kinds of Threats are Illegal? One common characteristic of extortion
> is the use of threats, that is, an express intention to inflict injury,
> loss, or some other bad consequence on another person. The threat has to be
> sufficiently plausible and imminent that it could convince a reasonable
> person to give in to the blackmailer’s demands. In addition, there has to be
> some evidence that the threat was actually made for the purpose of obtaining
> money or property."

[http://www.orbankruptcy.com/newsletters/criminal-
law/federal...](http://www.orbankruptcy.com/newsletters/criminal-law/federal-
laws-regarding-extortion/)

> "A person commits the federal offense of extortion if he or she transmits in
> interstate or foreign commerce any demand or request for ransom or for a
> reward for the release of a kidnapped person, any threat to kidnap or injure
> another person, or any threat to injure the property or reputation of
> another person or to accuse another person of a crime with the intent to
> extort."

Now that one specifically mentions that threats to injure persons, property or
_reputation_ qualify as extortion when done to get money from someone.

Here is the actual federal law:

[http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/875](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/875)

> "Whoever, with intent to extort from any person, firm, association, or
> corporation, any money or other thing of value, transmits in interstate or
> foreign commerce any communication containing any threat to injure the
> property _or reputation_ of the addressee or of another or the reputation of
> a deceased person or any threat to accuse the addressee or any other person
> of a crime, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two
> years, or both."

It seems very clear that that is what has happened here.

But if this form of threat by a Groupon employee to extract money from people
is _not_ extortion, what is the subtle difference that would enable such
threats to be considered non-criminal?

~~~
jeremybencken
This isn't a story about Groupon except insofar as they hire unprofessional,
immature sales reps.

The sales punk didn't like how he was treated, so he gets revenge by
(threatening) to leverage his own personal network.

It's pretty unlikely this is some organized practice at Groupon.

~~~
lancewiggs
It is a story about Groupon. How can they let their staff get into this
situation where they are so desperate as to make threats? How did they not
know about and fix the poor experience with Groupon previously? How are the
staff paid - is the commission component so high that they have to make sales
no matter what? Is the training and are the SOPs so poor that the staff are
free to operate on the edges of legality?

Is the culture such that anything goes?

Are the systems that review performance of sales reps not catching up with
this sort of behaviour?

Groupon allowed this to happen, and it's for Groupon to fix.

Firing the guy would be a knee jerk reaction that would not to me be the right
one. Not firing him and doing nothing would be worse. The best answer is a
blame-free full review of how this occurred, and how they can design their
organisation and process to make it never occur again.

~~~
bdcravens
I don't correct it's correct to blame practices like these on the employer's
business model. That's like blaming road rage killings on the government for
having congested roads.

Sounds to me like it's a kid barely out of college who can't control his
emotions and is having a pouty hissy fit. His emotional age obviously is not
advanced enough to prepare him for sales.

If you want to blame anything, blame the culture (Web 2.0? SF? VC funded
world?) that believes that younger is always better.

~~~
nemothekid
I fail to see how this has anything to do with his age. There are assholes at
all stages of life.

~~~
bdcravens
I chose the term "emotional age" carefully for that reason.

That said, if we were talking about hiring a node.js dev, and comparing a 22
year old vs. a 57 year old, would "I fail to see how this has anything to do
with his age. There are great developers at all stages of life." be applicable
as well? Or would it reasonable to make some generalizations while
appreciating exceptions?

------
stugs
I don't think Andy has a bright future in sales

~~~
focus1
haha, definitely not

------
toble
Sounds like one of those game theory side effects. If you pay and measure
people by targets then expect them to use dubious techniques to win the game.

------
BlakePetersen
Anyone who goes to Berkeley and majors in American Studies obviously has never
heard 'No' before. Talk about a wasted opportunity. This guy has douche stink
all over his various profiles.

------
inselkampf
It appears he lives in Chicago yet he happened to visit TWO Sauce locations in
SF on the same day.... this guy is unbelieveable

------
awjr
The more interesting thing is, has any restaurant had a good experience with
Groupon?

~~~
infinitone
More like- has any business had any?

I would love to see how many times a business that tried groupon after the
first time.

~~~
mattmanser
We've had quite a few people defend them on previous threads about groupon
with really positive experiences.

They have tended to be places like paintballing or sky diving, things where
the cost doesn't go up that much more with the more people who come. And who
can upsell (paintballs, photographs). There's a technical business term for
those businesses that I can't remember.

But apparently they do do well out of groupon.

~~~
SoftwareMaven
Service-oriented businesses tend to have positive experiences. Pretty much
anything where you may have somebody sitting around 1/2 their time doing
nothing, just to make sure you've got coverage during all of business hours.
Any money you recoup from that 1/2 of the time is money in your pocket.

Anything with inventory costs (e.g. restaurants) have a much harder time. Food
costs are a significant portion of the cost of serving a table. It wouldn't be
bad to have a loss-leader for one or two meals, but grouponers don't become
"the next repeat customer", so you just lose money on the meals with not much
to show.

~~~
infinitone
So would you say a carwash type business also make money off it? Cause they
have inventory costs but also they are more service oriented?

------
danso
On a tangent, how is this situation something that hasnt yet been hammered
into Groupon's sales reps as something _not_ to do? Say what you will about
their business practices, but it's a savvy enough company with a young enough
workforce that'd you would think they would have common sense in this kind of
thing. In the day of Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook, even a nobody can generate
a vicious defense against any company.

Also common sense thing about the Internet: assume that whatever you send in
email has the potential to be seen by everyone, for perpetuity. Hope this
sales person was listing a Google Voice number

------
nperez
This story has had some interesting developments.. check the bottom of the
comments. He has now changed his Yelp name and removed his profile pic. It was
unprofessional from the start, but now it's getting really ridiculous.

------
tlogan
Shouldn't this be Yelp's job?

------
potatolicious
Silly Groupon sales rep, everyone knows only Yelp sales reps are allowed to
threaten restaurants with bad reviews!

------
mathattack
All I can say is Wow!

To say something like this on the phone is crazy, and something to get fired
over. To put it in writing is a career ender. Any company that does background
checks will not hire someone like this. Absolutely amazing.

------
dvhh
While I agree the guy is a scum and deserve a good kick in the ball, I feel
that people here (even me including to some degree) condone what we are
criticizing the NSA for. I also agree that this behavior is also destroying
not only whatever remains of groupon reputation, but is also hurting Yelp as
well (which should detect this kind of abuse but wont , because an inflated
number of reviews is more trusted than a few verified ones).

------
yelp_is_bad_too
Psst...

Yelp salespeople have threatened restaurant owners that negative reviews would
be more prominent (or could disappear if they "ran a deal" w/ them)

Who knows if company policy, but cowboy/cowgirl sales reps are doing a
fantastic job of burning goodwill

------
npaquin
Andy Johnston II: All your base are belong to the internet.

------
josteink
To put this internet witch-hunt in perspective I know about 0 persons who care
about either groupon or yelp.

An offer from groupon would be spam to me and an opinion on yelp wouldn't be
seen because nobody I know uses it.

~~~
SimHacker
You should get out more, and make some friends.

------
SimHacker

        Andy Johnston II GROUPON GETAWAYS 
        Area Sales Manager
        ajohnston@groupon.com
        Desk: 312-462-9495 
        Cell: 5107033591
        Groupon Getaways
    

Apparently "Groupon Getaways" means that Groupon thinks they can get away with
anything they want.

~~~
polymathist
Not a good idea to publish the guy's cell number, regardless of what he's
done.

~~~
SimHacker
That bell has already been rung, honey. That bell has already been rung.

He's the one who published his personal cell phone number and office desk
number in his written extortion letter, while acting as an official
representative of Groupon, from his authentic Groupon email account. Not my
problem.

If you really want to get to the root of the problem, you might try cold
calling his number, and advising HIM he shouldn't put his cell phone number in
email when he sends threats to people. Maybe he'll hang up on you, and you
might "sincerely appreciate him hanging up on you", just like he "sincerely
appreciated" the owner of the restaurant doing that to him.

~~~
stusmall
My cell number is all over online. It took me all of about 5 min to find
yours. Posting personal info here doesn't add to the conversation or help
improve the situation. You are just inviting people to harass him.

~~~
SimHacker
He's inviting people to harass himself by being an extortionist, not by having
his cell phone number online. Feel free to call me and I'll explain!

------
kitcar
I honestly don't know why this is even on the front page... It shouldn't
surprise anyone that companies with thousands of low-paid roles are bound to
sometimes end up with people which act unethically - we should be judging
these companies based on how they deal with these employees, rather than the
mere fact that these employees exist.

~~~
seivan
Low paid? The sales collected six figure salaries, they are paid more than
Engineers.

~~~
lukejduncan
Engineers average less than 6 figures in a major city like Chicago?

