
Secret’s founder returns with anti-loneliness app Ikaria - daddy_drank
https://techcrunch.com/2020/02/18/just-imagine-ikaria-secret/
======
1propionyl
Oh good. Another app.

When will people learn that more technology is not only not always the answer,
but often the problem?

The biggest fallacy of the 21st century is the idea that the shortcomings and
collateral effects of the advance of technology can be addressed with more
technology.

I'm not against technology. I'm not a neo-Luddite. But at the same time, the
conception that all of the problems we've created or exacerbated through
technology can be resolved by more of it is painfully naive. It's "when all
you've got is a hammer..." logic.

New technology won't replace or repair the decline in social centers. New
technology won't fix our increasing sense of disconnection with our
localities. New technology won't help us engage with local politics (in the
sense of trying to do good by collective action).

Building new apps and new technologies isn't a cure-all or necessarily a
solution for the problems were facing right now. It's time for us to recognize
that we (the tech community) don't have all of the right answers, and it's
time for us to reach out and try to learn, and try to participate in fixing
the problems we helped create.

~~~
onion2k
_It 's time for us to recognize that we (the tech community) don't have all of
the right answers, and it's time for us to reach out and try to learn, and try
to participate in fixing the problems we helped create._

Is this like when people in the past said the postal system couldn't ever
replace visiting someone, and that the telephone would never replace letters,
and that chat apps couldn't beat a phone call..

People in tech (all tech since the beginning of the human race) have believed
their inventions will nudge people to do things they might not otherwise do.
Better swords and armour encouraged more battles, better farm tools encouraged
more farming, better housing encouraged bigger families, better eduction
encouraged more inventiveness, and so on. That's what tech _is_. Today that
means Google's adverts push us to click on links and buy things, Facebook's
status updates push us to share more, Instagram encourages us to take more
selfies and pictures of our dinners, Twitter's retweets make us show people we
discovered things they might want to see. The idea that people in tech _wouldn
't_ come up with apps that try to fix the lonely people by making them
sociable is ridiculous. Apps and tech are _all about_ behaviour manipulation.

And, mostly looking at all the evidence around us, it works _really_ well.

~~~
DyslexicAtheist
have you been outside recently? I mean outside without a phone for a couple of
months. Give yourself a no-data diet, and just observe what is going on in
others. Wait alone at a bus-stop or alone at a pub or cafe. You can see them
addicted to their screens everywhere. It's the norm now to immediately reach
for the phone because god forbid they might otherwise feel 2 seconds of
boredom. They are no longer human as far as I'm concerned. The problem is
never that AI and technology will replace us. We are becoming (actually we
have already become) so much like AI/robots that it's impossible to stomach.
Everyone isolated into their own little algorithmic prisons without any need
to listen to others. It's much much worse than any hard drug you could be
addicted to because with hard drugs you still have others who you can do them
with. Just do yourselves a favor and never unplug because what you see might
be so upsetting that you might wonder if it's still worth living.

I won't even get started on the problem of "fixing loneliness" with an app.
You don't "fix" loneliness with an external tool. The only solution to fix
this is inside you (and it hurts if you do it right). Pain is part of it and
anyone who claims they can take away the pain, or make it easy should be
metaphorically incinerated.

These things aren't increasing empathy. They're the opposite: They are empathy
sinks!

y'all do yourselves a favor and read Jacques Ellul "La Technique" (The
Technological Society) and stop peddling and defending more Tech just for the
Benjamins.

~~~
onion2k
_You don 't "fix" loneliness with an external tool. The only solution to fix
this is inside you (and it hurts if you do it right)._

Thinking this way is utterly toxic. It puts 100% of the onus to resolve an
issue on the individual with no room for people to help each other. You might
as well be telling depressed people to "think happy thoughts more" or telling
anxious people to "snap out of it and be more resourceful".

No amount of claiming "tech is bad" will change the fact that tech is a great
way of connecting people. If an app is useful to bring people who need help
together with people who want to help them then that is a very good thing.

~~~
agumonkey
You are very right but it's also true that there's a low hanging fruit factor
with 'application' to solve anything which often just shapeshift the problem.

Let's not forget the good old 'use the right tool'

late ps: half kidding, I often wonder what would happen if internet got cut
for a long time (week~).

------
garry
I invested in Ikaria and feel like someone should speak up here.

I was early investor with Chrys Bader previously on his startup Secret. He was
a YC batchmate of mine from 2008. I watched him build an initial prototype
that had the chance to be a real social network that had very high long term
retention, but in the end the company didn't invest deeply enough into
moderation and the long term retention cohorts went down steeply past 6 months
of use.

Chrys is a great designer and product manager who caught lightning in a bottle
previously, and lost it. Founders often catch lightning in a bottle and then
fail to keep it because scaling operations like moderation, or sometimes even
just keeping the servers online, through hyper scale, is hard.

Many founders never find lightning in a bottle even once. Even in my
experience I felt like we caught lightning in a bottle with Posterous and
failed to properly bring it to the scale I wish we could have.

I realize I am going out on a limb to defend him here, but founders going back
into the arena deserve at least a little bit of defense because it's hard
enough to take the chance to make anything ever.

You'll hear more about how Ikaria really works, and I realize the post is
light on details, but don't write this startup off before you actually try the
software itself.

~~~
charliemil4
Friendships are everything — keep them close and cultivate them. If it’s
through investments, building tech, do it.

The market is a beautiful thing; it will quickly and swiftly tell you if
you’re right or not. No need to fret over any apologetic comment.

~~~
davidajackson
I'm curious about whether the most successful products to solve loneliness
will be ones that help people connect virtually, versus connect in person.
Maybe a healthy balance of both?

~~~
1propionyl
"Solve" loneliness. With a "product".

Try to get out of your bubble. To anyone who isn't entirely immersed in that
bubble this is absolutely insane talk. It sounds sociopathic and out-of-touch.

Maybe, just maybe, this isn't a problem you can "solve" by engineering. And
maybe, just maybe, the solution (if it exists) isn't a "product".

~~~
sgift
> Maybe, just maybe, this isn't a problem you can "solve" by engineering. And
> maybe, just maybe, the solution (if it exists) isn't a "product".

Or maybe it is. In all your comments in the various threads here you fail to
give a reasoning for your position which is not "it is my opinion". Instead
you have now started attacking others. "sociopathic talk"? Really?

------
hellotomyrars
Incredibly vague statements parroting known talking points with 0 substance to
show for it.

I hate to be cynical but all this `tech to fix the social problems created by
tech` really brings out the cynic in me.

Realistically I know that we _do_ need new solutions but the solution to a
drinking problem isn't to deliver better, more mindful alcohol.

Edit: To the comments below, I am not asserting that tech has actually
_created_ an entire new set of problems out of nothing, just that that is the
narrative on display here and in other places. This is part of why it makes me
so incredibly cynical.

~~~
stickfigure
I agree with your evaluation of the article, but I'm tired of this "social
problems created by tech" narrative. I grew up in the world before the
internet. It was NOT better.

~~~
notlukesky
I actually think it was worse before, just like in many areas. The bullying
and fighting then was physical and real.

Everything keeps getting better over time (measured in say decades) but the
one constant we will always have is complaining.

Yes there are always real problems and new ones are also created, but on the
whole we are doing better in many matters.

~~~
kinleyd
Yes, I think the personal computer sucked in many people who previously would
have idled their time elsewhere, having nothing better to do. It was often a
life saver or at the very least a more productive use of time - for me it
certainly was.

------
econcon
Loneliness is because people have convinced themselves that the cost of being
with someone is bigger than the reward of being with someone.

The immediate cost of being alone is going down.

We need to understand, no matter how much a person has read or introspected
their behaviour or are kind at their heart - no one will every be able to live
up to the expectations of millions of people on internet.

This is why relationship advice on internet is such a joke, whenever anything
happens, advice that's given to them is "leave this person, this person is
abusive, manipulative, you deserve better". They follow the advice and end up
alone and convince themselves that being alone is best.

Now, about the people who want to pursue romantic interests,the game is soo
different now.

Long ago, girls from my town only dated local boys. They had to do with what's
available to them locally but these days, one girl tells me that their
boyfriend is coming to see them on weekend from Italy, while others boyfriend
is coming from Greece, etc... Meanwhile men of town have drowned themselves in
video games, porn and drinking/drugs because they've no meaningful
relationships - they told me they feel like loser because girls aren't
interested in them.

Yes, the men they are with are wayy better than what's available locally.
Better according to preference of those girls, not according to me. Can I
blame women for choosing best available to them? No. Many guys will do same
provided they had the opportunity.

If romantic interests is not what you wanna pursue, it hardly matters if you
are not very attractive - you can find plenty of people are church, at beach
or anywhere where you see people. Finding people to spend time with us not
difficult at all provided you can fulfill the minimum required to not put off
the people.

I am pretty sure when people say they are lonely - they are talking about
absence of people in their life who care about them or make efforts to make
them happy or go out of their way to make them feel special, cared for,
treasured. Who doesn't want this?

How technology can solve it?

~~~
watwut
On the other hand, leaving abusive or manipulative person is a good idea - you
are better off alone.

And dating addicted gamer that also drinks or takes drugs sounds like special
kind of hell. It would just make her suffer in bad relationship where she has
no meaningfull companion and partner.

No girl can cure any of these. And guys like this won't change after starting
to date a girl - not for long. The idea that she will civilised him by her
presence is bonkers.

Hardcore gamer culture is not the "you found a girl stop playing that much"
culture. It is "you don't play enough you are weakling get gut looser, if girl
stopping you from hobby she is bad partner" culture.

Amd real life dating activities are boring compared to excitement of gane for
gamers. Even if he wanted to stop instantly, it is trully hard.

~~~
econcon
>And dating addicted gamer that also drinks or takes drugs sounds like special
kind of hell. It would just make her suffer in bad relationship where she has
no meaningfull companion and partner.

That happened once they accepted that they'll find any relationship - everyone
they were interested in, rejected them and they gave up.

>No girl can cure any of these. And guys like this won't change after starting
to date a girl - not for long. The idea that she will civilised him by her
presence is bonkers

Do we always live for ourselves? Do we never try to live up to expectations of
our family or friends? Or those who believe in us, being on our side in life?

~~~
watwut
This is simply false. Gamers don't start at 27 when they gave up on dating.
They just keep playing more and more from pre-teenage years as social thing
with friends.

Nor do people start drink after they have been without partner for years.
Instead, they are friends with peers and drink with them progressively.

> Do we always live for ourselves? Do we never try to live up to expectations
> of our family or friends? Or those who believe in us, being on our side in
> life?

Sure not. But what you want there is a person whose only role is to make you
better by making you feel like she expects from you - without getting much in
return.

That is not how relationships work, both sides need to have their needs met.
Both sides need the other side to give.

Including girls.

~~~
wruza
To make some perspective, you started in a “clueless dad” mode about gaming
and then went that route (gamers social grouping, etc) to justify the
phenomenon.

There is nothing to justify though. Someone is choosing a partner from a
different country, who can fly over for a weekend. It is not “better” or
“worse”, it is a selection from a bigger set of beautiful he-dogs, and all-
time high expectations. You can see that even not crossing a country border,
just look at a small town near a big one. All males in there fall in shadow of
any confident big city citizen. With technology, the discussed outcome was
inevitable.

I bet that our parent commenter did not speak about NY, Paris or Tokio
downtowns.

~~~
watwut
There is nothing clueless about observation that people start playing games
way sooner then they seek partners. There is nothing clueless about
observation that it has social component - bonding among guys. In particular
gamers tend to have whole social life composed of other gamers.

The guys you described are not failing to meet some super high expectations.
You described people with drug and alcohol issues who have game addiction
issues on top.

Romantic relationship is not the only source of company and relationships. You
can't depend on one person for all your social and emotional needs.

There are slightly more girls then males at any given moment. There are plenty
of single women around the world. They don't blame missing guys for their
alcoholism (through plenty of them have other issues)

~~~
wruza
>You described people with drug and alcohol issues who have game addiction
issues on top.

I had no such thing in mind at all. Not sure if me or you misread this
subthread, but blaming guys who cannot find a local match for their depression
(if they take place; this idea was brought out of nowhere) seems too
prejudicial, while more prosaic explanations exist - they cannot compete at
their best.

Op was like “girls in town choose foreigners so local guys feel like loser”,
and you jumped to “they are all game addicts, and drugs, and alcohol, their
fault”.

~~~
watwut
Nah, it was not merely depression. Full quote: "men of town have drowned
themselves in video games, porn and drinking/drugs". Which is way more then
being depressed. It does not matter whose is to be blamed, but dating anyone
like that is receipt for unavailable alcoholic partner. And she won't meet him
anyway, cause he is moving solely among males.

His explanation is "because they've no meaningful relationships", but then he
proceed to define meaningfull relationships as romantic only.

No girl can fix any of that. They can't fix lack of friendship, can't fix lack
of familly relationships, can't fix no roots in local community. Women are not
rewards for good behavior nor cure for mental health problems. If you expect
any of that, you will end up ressentful of partner who won't be able to
provide that much.

Having long term partner is not cure all, nor cure for depression or
loneliness. Not in long term, not after initial honeymoon passionate period
ends.

I doubt that majority of town girls have foreign long distance intercultural
partners. Such relationships are quote hard to keep and generally rare.
Despite there being some girls with foreign boyfriend, majority will date
local or not at all.

And plenty of girls have depressions on their own, mental health problems, bad
habits, possibly own addiction struggles. Problems in families with relatives
or on the job.

------
kabacha
In a world where there are literal conferences on how to psychologically abuse
people to spend money in your app I feel that I'd never trust any sort of app
that aims "help my psychologicall health".

Combined that with the fact that this whole "reveal article" has no actual
substance and trying to sell me the idea and emotion rather than a feature
makes feel that I'm being manipulated already and I hadn't even opened up the
app yet!

I feel that the "app" medium has lost any credibility for providing solutions
of this sort.

~~~
1propionyl
It never actually had any credibility for these sorts of deep and complex
social problems.

That was just a lie we told ourselves and investors during the heyday where we
naively believed we were going to solve all of the world's problems through
apps.

It was never real. No one ever actually believed an app could fix loneliness
or depression outside of bored investors with too much money and time on their
hands and starving startup developers desperate to break even.

And yes, dear HN reader, that likely means YOU.

HN readers love to rightfully talk shit about Gwyneth Paltrow and GOOP, but
apparently can't see that many of them are pushing the exact same kind of
bullshit for a different audience.

~~~
SuoDuanDao
Meetup has actually been pretty effective for me. Granted it's more of a
website than an app, not sure the distinction is important though.

------
peter_l_downs
> “I don’t feel good about that. That sucks,” Chrys Bader-Wechseler reflects
> when asked about the bullying that went down on the anonymous app Secret he
> co-founded in 2013. After $35 million raised, 15 million users and a
> spectacular flame out two years later, the startup was dead. “Since I left
> Secret I feel alive and aligned with my values and my purpose again.”

I wonder what his values and purpose are.

~~~
speedplane
> “Since I left Secret I feel alive and aligned with my values and my purpose
> again.” > I wonder what his values and purpose are.

Few people know the founder and whether he's actually a good person or a
fraud, but we do know that: he was the recipient of huge VC largess, created
an app with shaky moral foundation that caused actual harm, and then shut it
down after lots of bad publicity.

Not reasons to totally discount a person, but good reasons to be skeptical.

------
wyck
Wow had a flashback to the web 2.0 bubble. They must be really convincing at
sales to get funding for something they can't even explain, again.

------
Invictus0
In my opinion, with regards to friendship, there is simply no substitute for
an in person conversation. I happily drive 6 hours to see my best friends for
a weekend; that's at least $70 in gas as well. FaceTime just isn't the same
and I have a hard time imagining the people in my circle (the same type of
people I would like to meet) spending their time trying to meet people on an
app.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
I also value in-person conversation. But my experience has increasingly been
that my circle of friends is up for having dinner or whatever, but during the
meal everyone is looking down at their phones and they only have half of their
attention on the conversation. When your friends aren’t entirely present
mentally, then even in-person meetups can make you feel lonely.

~~~
dannyw
Try to get your circle of friends more engaged and present if you can.

------
leftyted
Hannah Arendt claims that loneliness was necessary for the rise of
totalitarianism in the 20th century.

She writes:

> Loneliness, the common ground for terror, the essence of totalitarian
> government, and for ideology or logicality, the preparation of its
> executioners and victims, is closely connected with uprootedness and
> superfluousness which have been the curse of modern masses since the
> beginning of the industrial revolution and have become acute with the rise
> of imperialism at the end of the last century and the break-down of
> political institutions and social traditions in our own time. To be uprooted
> means to have no place in the world, recognized and guaranteed by others; to
> be superfluous means not to belong to the world at all. Uprootedness can be
> the preliminary condition for superfluousness, just as isolation can (but
> must not) be the preliminary condition for loneliness. Taken in itself,
> without consideration of its recent historical causes and its new role in
> politics, loneliness is at the same time contrary to the basic requirements
> of the human condition and one of the fundamental experiences of every human
> life. Even the experience of the materially and sensually given world
> depends upon my being in contact with other men, upon our common sense which
> regulates and controls all other senses and without which each of us would
> enclosed in his own particularity of sense data which in themselves are
> unreliable and treacherous. Only because we have common sense, that is only
> because not one man, but men in the plural inhabit the earth can we trust
> our immediate sensual experience. Yet, we have only to remind ourselves that
> one day we shall have to leave this common world which will go on as before
> and for whose continuity we are superfluous in order to realize loneliness,
> the experience of being abandoned by everything and everybody.

Dealing with "uprootedness and superfluousness" is one of the most perplexing
questions facing modernity. I doubt an app can address this but...good luck.

------
busymom0
I read through around 75% of the TechCrunch article and I am yet to figure out
what exactly this app is supposed to be. Seemed like a lot of feel good jargon
but it couldn’t tell me how exactly it will make my life better or improve
upon other social media (if that’s what this app is??)

------
macinjosh
The phone's off button is the ultimate anti-loneliness app.

------
chrysb
Sorry, I missed the parent thread.

This all started with a very simple question: Do we fundamentally believe that
technology can help us create more meaningful relationships and increase our
social wellness?

If we believe the answer is yes, then we absolutely must do everything in our
power and ability to try to find the answer. That's why we decided to build
Ikaria.

We are not ignorant to the value of real, in-person communication and
interaction, and we're not trying to replace it. We've done deep research on
the psychology of relationships and loneliness, and the mental health impact
of it. The problem exists with or without social media, although numerous
studies have shown the problem can be exacerbated by social media.

Since we cannot avoid technology, we must reclaim it and give people spaces
where they can form healthy habits and healthy relationships with their phones
and each other. Very much like the fitness industry was born from a junk food
epidemic, it's time for a shake-up in junk social nutrition.

Our goal is to bring healthy relational practices to the forefront. Very much
like Calm and Headspace have done for mindfulness and mental health, we would
like to do for social health. From what we've seen, the behaviors we learn in
a digital space are transferable into the physical world.

We are working directly with experts and mental health professionals to help
inform our product decisions and include them from the very beginning. This is
bigger than any one person or idea, and we believe it's going to take a
village.

So far, in our closed beta, people are reporting feeling closer to everyone in
their groups, increased levels of happiness, and a positive relationship with
the app. (i.e. "This is the only app where I allow notifications other than
text")

For me, personally, it's brought me much closer to my parents and I keep in
touch with them more than I ever have. I'd love for more people to have that
experience.

We welcome criticism and support equally, thank you to everyone who has shown
interest and has shared their views.

------
blackrock
Suspicious app.

This might be another clever way to harvest private user information. Are you
lonely? Hey, how about some therapy? Here’s a list of some good therapists.
(Your name was auctioned off to the highest bidders.)

Or how about some Zoloft? It cures everything. Buy now, for a 25% discount.
(Your name and demographic was auctioned off to the highest bidder.)

If I was a lunatic, then, I don’t think I want to be in some random company’s
insecure database, just waiting to be hacked.

------
hellofunk
Why do these sites obnoxiously hijack the browser back button ?!

------
rationalbeaver
"Ikaria...named after the Greek island where a close-knit community helps
extend people’s lifespans."

"Bader met Dadashi through an _offline_ men’s group for discussing life, love
and everything in the wake of Secret’s collapse and a rough romantic breakup.
After just a few weeks of these meetups, they say they felt closer to each
other than to most of their friends."

"Basically, since 2004, technology has created this monumental shift in the
human social experience. We’re more connected than ever technically but all
the studies show we’re lonelier than ever,” Bader explains. “It’s like eating
McDonald’s to get healthy."

And the conclusion is to take VC money to make a slightly different
McDonald's. I just can't even.

------
anonsivalley652
It should be an app in the form of a huge EPFCG EMP. ;) Only when:

0\. people's survival depends on them interacting

1\. the established ruling-class is dethroned from atomizing and monetizing
people into individual, lonely, learned-helpless products who are taught to
spend 10% of their pay on a laptop every 3 years, forgo single-payer
healthcare and spend 10x more for medications

2\. people can afford housing, start a family and put down roots instead of
going in insane debt, gig economy pseudo-jobs, changing jobs/moving like a
pinball or living at work to burn-out

3\. return to solidarity, cohesion, the Golden Rule and basic decency as the
prevalent modality

... will they do so.

------
KoftaBob
I'd argue that modern day issue of loneliness is an urban design problem way
more than it is a technology problem.

The suburbs are isolating, and building strip malls instead of walkable
downtowns (for both suburbs and denser areas) just adds to that. We pushed for
the quiet and privacy of suburbs but took it so far that we eliminated the
human interaction.

We need to start prioritizing spaces and urban design that encourage social
interaction. Build walkable downtowns around commuter rail stations. More
parks, coffeeshops, community spaces to suit different hobbies, etc.

------
Ice_cream_suit
Hype laden, manipulative article with no substance.

Is the product going to be similar?

------
idclip
“Since I left Secret I feel alive and aligned with my values and my purpose
again.” - Bader, co founder

What Bader learned from watching Secret’s users “do this in the dark” was the
realization that “actually, we need to learn to do this in the light, to have
that same kind of dialogue, but do it openly with each other.”

Hell of anti workplace toxicity spot if you ask me.

We need to regain this piece of our humanity back.

Im doing l my share, are you ? HN does lean towards the light from what i can
see.

~~~
Ensorceled
> Im doing l my share, are you ? HN does lean towards the light from what i
> can see.

I think, in general, HN leans a little towards the light but that is true of
humanity in general.

But, there is a boat load of toxicity in this very discussion.

~~~
idclip
Point it out! Im actually eager to be told my shortcomings. Unconscious things
are hard to aolve

------
LandR
Solve loneliness by giving people another reason to stare at their phone.
Sigh.

I sometimes feel like the tech industry is an episode of black mirror.

------
sgt
An anti-loneliness app? What's wrong with M-x doctor?

------
paul7986
Solution to loniliness on the internet is be decent looking, hot or the vision
of what ppl want (aka the beauty standards we're programmed to desire). Those
who fit that mold probably aren't the target audience for this app.

Overall the Internet and the dating/hook up apps I believe are one of the
problems to the loneliness epedemic Ive read about (all or many of us are too
judgy online). People being immediately judged and swiped right on (throw to
the bin) without ever getting to know someone. Someone who might make you pee
your pants with laughter!

~~~
dannyw
I have made close friendships from people on IRC without ever knowing who they
look like.

Sure, that’s what tinder is, but you don’t have to use tinder.

~~~
fxtentacle
Me, too. But I wouldn't be able to imagine IRC chat as a VC-fueled iPhone app
without ruining it's charms.

------
mbar84
Is the guy on the right not the sycophant of Gavin Belson?

------
mjevans
The root cause of this is pretty much entirely greed.

Greed in the form of housing policies where that is used as a tool for
investment, rather than an investment in the community.

Greed in the form of a missing integration in to society and support for all
who are in it to at least a basic level of guarantee. (Popular example, Star
Trek utopia)

Greed in the form of profits being squeezed upward rather than shared as
prosperity for all.

-

If everyone had their own, quality (private, outside noises/smells/etc
excluded by good design and build quality), living spaces nearer to each other
that would be far better for the design of our cities and the environment.

If everyone had a useful, non-broken-window, job and place where they added
value to society, that would be better for everyone.

If everyone needed to expend less and less of their day working as things got
more efficient, we would have the time to actually exist as humans /
intelligent emotional beings among Family, Friends, and those we don't yet
know.

-

I really believe that if people were treated like people, and had the time to
be better people, much of our social ills would sort out sooner rather than
later.

~~~
donatj
I’m guessing you’ve never actually been lonely. I am not lonely because of
greed.

I am lonely because my friends have all married and moved away to start
families.

I am lonely because I have always been socially awkward and being in my mid
30s with less time and energy than ever the prospect of trying to make new
friends is a terrifying maze. I go to meetups and other social events and put
myself out ther but connecting with people I don’t already know on anything
more than a superficial level has proven impossible.

I am not lonely because of greed.

~~~
econcon
>I am lonely because my friends have all married and moved away to start
families.

Why don't you have a family and kids?

~~~
donatj
My wife and I have been trying to conceive for 4 years but it has been a
complicated and emotional roller coaster.

