
Do-it-Yourself Vaccines for Covid-19 - pseudolus
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-it-yourself-vaccines-for-covid-19/
======
cwhiz
>Some scientists are self-administering an untested product. Is that legal?

Yes, of course. Obviously.

>Some scientists are self-administering an untested product. Is it ethical?

Who cares? They are self administering.

This whole article can be summed up to "Bureaucrats are annoyed that some
scientists aren't playing ball with their giant piles of unnecessary paperwork
and invented regulations."

~~~
diffeomorphism
Is that at all obvious? Suppose there are serious side effects and the
scientist loses his arm. You bet that people will say it was unethical by the
lab provider to let them try.

~~~
dcolkitt
I mean, there's plenty of recreational activities where the participant has a
pretty good chance of losing their arm or worse. Nobody seems to argue about
the legality, let alone the ethics of BASE jumping, wingsuiting, free solo
climbing, or technical diving.

And unlike scientific experimentation, these don't even come with any sort of
broader social benefit. We let consenting adults mix wildly speculative
breathing gasses so they can dive 500 feet underwater. Pretty much for no
other reason than it's cool. Why not let scientists do the same if it might
cure a pandemic that's killed millions?

~~~
diffeomorphism
free solo climbing in the office building?

The point is that the university is providing equipment and allows this to
take place in their labs.

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donor20
Good lord

\- we have an opiod crisis - thousands overdosing and commercial providers
making billions and a larger drug and alcohol abuse problems (plenty of folks
injecting and drinking things they shouldn't).

\- we have a pandemic - thousands dying and millions impacted. Thousands not
even wearing masks, going to covid parties etc.

And we get this - legal and ethical issues around someone taking some pretty
innocuous stuff that may or may not reduce various risks around exposure where
there are public benefits - and taking it themselves.

Has the US become the country of can't do news writers, outraged and offended
at everything. We get it - don't wear masks - they don't help, take off your
mask if healthy, don't get tested unless you traveled to china. How about
trying out some of these ideas (testing, mask wearing, vaccines)?

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roenxi
Also notably in this article; major life saving discoveries would have been
delayed. Maybe we'd still be arguing if bacteria cause gastritis and peptic
ulcers.

"Improving" the ethics of medical research will have a cost of 10s of
thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives. Maybe more. Entire towns
worth of people condemned to disease and suffering. I disagree with any ethics
system that thinks that is a good outcome.

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bArray
I distinctly remember that Scientists researching Ebola ended up getting Ebola
- and perhaps the same for Zika too. I also know many people who work in the
field of Psychology whom have the condition they research to some degree.

I have zero idea how ethical any of it really is, but, it exists out there. It
seems like something that should at least be declared in any research
outcomes.

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garraeth
I'd like to suggest a title change to somehow illuminate the fact that
scientists are the ones doing it themselves, not the general public.

~~~
James_Henry
There are "non-scientists" who are doing this too, though they aren't
highlighted by the article.

Zayner: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-25/one-
bioha...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-25/one-bioha..).

Justin Atkin:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjDH6bXF4ow&t=67m47s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjDH6bXF4ow&t=67m47s)

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scottlocklin
TLDR: gasbags oppose scientists brewing their own vaccines for specious
reasons.

 _" A second misconception is the idea that this is research that could
benefit others."_

 _" Senior scientists benefit from many layers of privilege: investment in
their education, expertise in specialized areas, and access to information or
materials. Arguably, these privileges come with a responsibility to use
expertise for the benefit of society. "_

Seriously, while there may be good reasons this behavior is unethical or bad
or whatever, the clowns who wrote this disjointed nonsense are apparently
unable to discover them.

~~~
jeffreyrogers
I guess you didn't get the memo that only approved experts can do "science"
now[0]. Return to your pod and await further instruction from the authorities.

[0]:
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/07/30/you-...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/07/30/you-
must-not-do-your-own-research-when-it-comes-to-science/#665e06cf535e)

~~~
scottlocklin
The levels of insanity among "muh experts" is really reaching some kind of
escape velocity of stupid. On a given subject we've traditionally delegated to
"experts" I might as well ask a fry cook or stevedore.

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motohagiography
Good of them to do it, and I admire the risk taking aspect of it. however,
it's a gambit and a forcing function, where it comes down to the researchers
word they tested on themselves, presumably to achieve a fast tracking of some
sort, or to force a decision point. I can think of a lot of people whose word
they tested something on themselves would be suspect, especially in a
situation where it was in a situation with a high cost to reverse the decision
they were forcing. In negotiations, it's called a commitment ploy. So some
scientists would I take their word, sure. Most? Absolutely not.

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pax
whoa, detail from: 'Many cardiac procedures are based on a 1929 experiment by
a German doctor who inserted a catheter into his own heart'

> In 1929 the physician Werner Forssmann saw a picture in a book showing how a
> tube was inserted into the heart of a horse through a vein. A balloon at the
> other end of the tube showed changes in pressure. He was convinced that a
> similar experiment could be carried out on people. Despite the fact that his
> boss forbade him, Werner Forssmann conducted the experiment on himself. From
> the crook of his arm he inserted a thin catheter through a vein into his
> heart and took an X-ray photo. The experiment paved the way for many types
> of heart studies.

nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/1956/forssmann/facts/

> He persuaded the operating-room nurse in charge of the sterile supplies,
> Gerda Ditzen, to assist him. She agreed, but only on the promise that he
> would do it on her rather than on himself. However, Forssmann tricked her by
> restraining her to the operating table and pretending to locally
> anaesthetise and cut her arm whilst actually doing it on himself [more]

reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/hbjm5w/til_the_first_man_to_perform_a_cardiac/fv96mpo/

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leemailll
[https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/07/29/1005720/george-c...](https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/07/29/1005720/george-
church-diy-coronavirus-vaccine/)

This article gives more details

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Metacelsus
Based on my understanding of immunology I don't think this peptide nasal spray
is very likely to be an effective vaccine. In order to actually trigger an
immune response, the peptides would need to get taken up by cells and
displayed on MHCs. I don't think simply spraying them into the nose will be
good enough. It's an interesting idea but I think they should test it on
animal models before dosing humans.

~~~
jhou2
Well, I think they're trying to stimulate mucosal immunity, rather than
trigger MHC presentation. But yes, more research is needed to determine
effectiveness.

"This highlights one important advantage of an intranasal vaccine: a robust
mucosal immune response should greatly reduce or prevent this systemic
response by abrogating initial infection."

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m348e912
Here's my own personal vaccine for Covid-19:

A daily dose of zinc plus a zinc ionophore, as been shown to prevent or lessen
the effects of coronavirus (not just Covid-19)[0]

An ionophore is a fat-soluble substance that can transport non-fat soluble
elements across the cell membrane. Zinc-ionophores are zinc transporters in
and out of the cell and can increase the effects of zinc in the cell.

There are several zinc ionophore options:

Prescription: Ivermectin, (Hydroxy)Chloroquine

Over the counter: Quercetin, EgCg (Epigallocatechin Gallate), Reservatrol

Personally I take quercetin and zinc every day and wear a mask in public just
so others feel comfortable.

[0] Just google coronavirus and zinc ionophore

