
Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex - hvo
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opposite-sex-at-work-gender-study.html?action=click&contentCollection=upshot&region=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=sectionfront
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falcolas
I find this to be both very true, and very unfortunate.

It took me years (and being fired from a "zero tolerance" job) to figure out
how to put women at ease around me. Most of it involves "avoid being alone
with or physically close to them", and "censor yourself heavily".

It strikes me as a really unfortunate way to go through public life, but since
I'm a physically large guy with stunted skills for recognizing subtle social
cues, it's the only way to avoid making women uncomfortable (and, frankly, to
avoid another harassment charge).

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Simulacra
It's just as bad in politics. I lie to all women I meet in professional
settings: I drop a line about my "fiancé" whom I'm very much in love with.
It's sad and crazy how quickly that puts most women at ease.

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scarface74
As a married man, I'm wary of going to lunch alone with someone of the
opposite sex - for most of the reasons in the article. Not because I would say
or do anything inappropriate but for two reasons - the appearance of
impropriety and it's way too easy to get caught up in emotional affairs and to
take your eye of the ball in your own relationship. If for no other reason is
that it's easy to get caught up in how great your coworker is - you work with
them everyday, you by definition have a lot in common, and your work
relationship is "easy". You don't have to worry about all of the compromises
and stresses that are involved in maintaining a household and you only see
each other's best self.

On the other hand, if I did have both male and female reports, I would treat
them all equally - no solo lunch meetings, no late nights alone, etc.

When I was single, and most of my coworkers were single it was a lot
different.

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ShannonAlther
One thing I've noticed about American culture, versus the other countries I've
been/worked in, is that it's highly litigious. I suspect that one of the
reasons people feel uncomfortable is the threat of lawsuit (or being buried in
a corporate landslide triggered by policies designed to avoid lawsuit). This
in addition to the finger-pointing at older Evangelical attitudes in the
article...

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mirimir
Yes, highly litigious. And in the midst of a profound transformation in gender
relations. Over perhaps the last century. Things are just chaotic. So the
safest policy is avoiding potentially dangerous and/or compromising
situations.

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ShannonAlther
Unfortunately, potentially compromising situations are the best way to get
things done. If you want to avoid other people, you're going to be spending a
lot of time at home by yourself, so to speak.

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mirimir
The majority of survey respondents seemingly disagree. Also, you argue a false
dichotomy.

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ShannonAlther
Not at all. I'm just positing that to interact with someone means risking
social interaction that you don't want – serial harassment, for example. The
only surefire way to never be securely harassed is to never talk to anyone.

You shouldn't do that, of course. But one-on-one meetings are extremely useful
in many lines of work, and are also a time when you're likely to be accosted.
This whole article is about how a ridiculous fraction of people polled think
co-ed one-on-one meetings aren't kosher.

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mirimir
Generalization here isn't very useful. One-on-one meetings are often very
useful, regardless of gender. But there are risks. One party may fear assault,
and another may fear false accusation of assault. And even without intentional
assault or intentional false accusation, there's enormous potential for
miscommunication.

Self-awareness and prudence are the answer, I think. Don't meet one-on-one
with someone until you know them well enough. Well enough to judge their
intent. Well enough to get a sense of their communication style.

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dragonwriter
I suspect a big reason for this is (and I've seen studied of this specific to
ballroom dance, but it seems, in my experience, likely true more generally) is
that men are vastly more likely to _seek_ (either initially or as the
interaction progresses) sexual or romantic outcomes from such interactions
regardless of the overt purpose and to _perceive_ sexual/romantic interest on
the part of the other party than women are to have or perceive such interest,
which produced all kinds of bad outcomes from the interactions, with men
perceiving that women lead them on and women perceiving that men make passes
out of the blue.

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jcrben
The graph labeled What Women Think, by Age and Religion shows that younger
women are more inclined to view meeting alone as inappropriate, by a wide
margin. Surprising.

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akud
I also found that interesting. i had to reread the chsrt to be sute, because
my bias was that older women would find it more innappriate. I have two
hypotheses about what's driving that:

1\. Harrasment is more well-known now, and less tolerated 2\. The call-out
culture today doesn't actually prepare people to interact with members of the
opposite sex as adults.

I believe (2) is more likely to be true. What I mean by two is that, with
young people being encouraged to "call out" any interaction they might find
slightly uncomfortable, they develop a sense of fear and wariness around
cross-sex interactions, and can't manage their feelings of attraction.

~~~
theparanoid
The third possibility is men aren't sexually attracted to older women.

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xiphias
One thing that looks interesting from the data is that women censor man-women
contacts more than men. Of course women who are more open to these connections
as well can get a huge benefit in their business life (which may incur a cost
in their private life, like not having time for those ,,women only'' parties).

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brainfire
Can you explain why you think working with men (but not working with women)
makes it difficult for women to socialize with each other?

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xiphias
I wrote ,,as well''. It's about not having sex of the other person as the
deciding factor for a business connection (or any non-sexual connection)

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shorttime
What did they expect from the survey? Most American work places are not known
for cultural or social open-ness, whether for good or bad. Of course the data
will not reflect people engaging in any extra communication other than base
minimum. I've been struggling with the idea over my career but I feel I've had
most success when I did not socialize with coworkers other than for business.
It's unfortunate because we see each other so much out of our lives but it
seems socialization impedes career growth.

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burntrelish1273
Shops in the US can't do like a number of highly-productive British businesses
where schoolyard banter is a sign of mutual ball-busting and mental toughness.

Simple rules for men to follow in American businesses:

1\. Don't hire women unless nearly all men in the business are nonbrogrammers
or married.

2\. Don't schedule 1:1 meetings with women in secluded offices or meeting
rooms.

3\. Don't ask women personal questions, hit on them or do anything else to
make women uncomfortable. Basically, stick to business topics like a robot
_and then still walk on eggshells_.

4\. Don't hire SJWs, jerks or uncool people of any sex or gender. SJWs can
still sneak in looking for excuses to attack people based on stereotyping
because of their involuntary membership in various identity groups whom "must
be attacked."

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greenyoda
_" 1\. Don't hire women unless nearly all men in the business are
nonbrogrammers or married."_

Discriminating in hiring based on sex is illegal under US law.

And if you've already hired a bunch of employees who are not likely to be able
to work with women, you've probably made some very poor hiring decisions.

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RickJWag
I find Pence's policy fine. I find it simply a matter of respect. She's the
tops, I wouldn't even want to be seen with someone else. (Or to give anyone,
no matter how misguided, bad ideas.) I know of many happy marriages based on
the same.

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broahmed
Why is this article flagged? I think it's pretty relevant given all the recent
coverage sexual harassment in the tech industry is getting.

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RickJWag
You're right. It's starting to seem that Tech is full of people who say one
thing and do another.

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marpstar
People worry about work meetings with a single person of the opposite sex
present? Weird. In my part-time freelancing, I've had meetings and lunches
with female clients and never felt any sort of tension or discomfort. Maybe
because I'm the one doing the "selling", but the thought of hitting on these
women while we're trying to negotiate a deal seems completely unprofessional
and off the table.

Don't people understand that "don't shit where you eat" means you can still do
your job effectively?

