
Avoiding a transit of the United States - ColinWright
https://wikitravel.org/en/Avoiding_a_transit_of_the_United_States
======
owenmarshall
IMO, the Wikivoyage link is a better one:
[https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Avoiding_travel_through_the_U...](https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Avoiding_travel_through_the_United_States)

In general I'd recommend Wikivoyage over Wikitravel - the material seems
fresher and it is run by a community rather than a corporation with heavy-
handed policies.

~~~
paulgb
For anyone new to the distinction, Internet Brands bought Wikitravel and the
community didn't like that, so they forked to Wikivoyage. IB tried suing
Wikivoyage for this despite it being allowed under the content license --
either IB didn't do their due diligence on the license of the content they
bought, or they thought they could bully the community fork through the cost
of fighting it alone. It was eventually thrown out of court, as it should have
been.

Wikivoyage is now hosted by Wikimedia, the same nonprofit that hosts
Wikipedia.

~~~
cjensen
Just to really emphasize this... Internet Brands literally sued one of the
volunteer admins for this[1].

Please use Wikivoyage instead!

[1] Disclosure: As an admin, I may or may not have been one of the "unnamed
co-conspirators" in the lawsuit before IB dropped the suit

~~~
paulgb
Thanks for fighting for what's right! I was not involved and was mostly
recalling on memory, did I get any details wrong?

~~~
cjensen
I wasn't the one who _actually_ got sued. He had to deal with the mountain of
nonsense, not me

------
jordigh
This is a sore point for me because I live in Canada but I'm from Mexico. The
US happens to be between the two countries I care about the most.

In my head, I've fantasised responding to border agents' questions of "why do
you want to come into the US?" with "I don't. You're just in the way."

~~~
madcaptenor
I assume you'd be in favor of the Mexi-Canadian Overpass, then?
[https://politics.theonion.com/u-s-protests-mexi-canadian-
ove...](https://politics.theonion.com/u-s-protests-mexi-canadian-
overpass-1819566460)

~~~
jraph
You got me with your link.

------
bparsons
The moment I could afford to, I started avoiding connecting flights in the
United States wherever possible.

The user experience is appalling, from parking lot to gate.

I have visited places that take security very, very seriously (Israel, Russia,
China etc.) and all manage to make the entire process more bearable than the
United States. I don't really understand why they can't make their airports
function.

~~~
idontpost
Because foreigners are not welcome.

Seriously, this isn't hard to understand. The US is an unfriendly, hostile
nation. While most Americans, individually, are not unfriendly or hostile to
foreigners, the government is decidedly so and has been for decades.

~~~
ad_hominem
I mean we did have 3,000 people die from airplanes being hijacked and flown
into buildings - the TSA didn't exist before then. Unfortunately our gov't is
like an overreacting immune system inflaming the entire body and causing
unnecessary damage to functioning systems.

edit: Also Canadians in here, let's not pretend like CBSA's shit doesn't stink

~~~
idontpost
You should try reading the link first. The TSA is not the issue under
discussion. It's Customs and Border Patrol that's the issue.

~~~
ad_hominem
You should try reading the HN guidelines first that say not to accuse someone
of not reading the article. Sometimes discussions can meander outside the
original article's context.

------
gambiting
So I always wondered - what happens if your flight has to make an emergency
landing on US territory and you don't have a visa? Are the passengers held
separately until they can board another flight, so they don't have to go
through customs in that case?

~~~
jeff_vader
This reminds me a recent story when Norvegian Airlines plane was forced to
land in Iran due to [engine problem][1].

As a result:

    
    
      The passengers have now officially entered Iran,
      and no longer are allowed to enter the US under
      the visa waiver program. This means if any of
      them are flying onwards from Oslo to New York
      (which many are) they have to go to a US embassy
      and ask for permission. They might have to do it
      for the rest of their lives.
    

[1]: [https://www.airlive.net/boeing-737-max-8-stuck-in-iran-
since...](https://www.airlive.net/boeing-737-max-8-stuck-in-iran-since-
december-14-a-real-headache-for-norwegian/)

~~~
komali2
I can't see a single sane thing about this situation, and none of my senators
seem to give a shit. When I call my comments are "noted."

It's a bad idea. It shouldn't be that way.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
So vote for someone else the next time around and tweet @$incumbent (or let
them know in some other way) that you just voted for $othercanidate because
they do not take your concerns about $subject seriously enough. Basically just
be vocal about your issue.

~~~
komali2
Do you believe this will have an effect?

~~~
andersonvom
Probably not in the short term and only if enough people start doing it. I
like the idea of making it clear for the people you're voting for and against
why you're voting/not voting for them. Hopefully, it'll influence their future
platforms.

~~~
owenmarshall
If you contact your congresscritter over their official congressional channels
- email, phone, Twitter, plain ol' letter - and tell them you plan to vote
for/against them because of $X, a very polite intern will tell you that they
will record your support/opposition to $X but that they cannot pass along your
comment on voting to your congresscritter.

Be sure to share that with their campaign: that's how you get that message
through.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
They can't "pass along your message" specifically but when they get several
hundred people saying they didn't vote for $boss because of their stance on
$issue they will find a way to let $boss know about the pattern.

------
dmix
I'm sure the Huawei executive was aware of this and actively avoided
transiting through the US. She probably didn't assume Canada would also do the
US's bidding.

The charges against her work with Iran had made headlines nearly 5+ yrs before
she was arrested, so she must have known there was a risk travelling there.

~~~
rlglwx
If the Canadian government requests the United States government to detain
someone, the US would. That's the nature of extradition treaties. Nobody is
doing anyone's "bidding".

~~~
dmix
Sure but don't act like it's just some run-of-the-mill legal process without
significant political implications for Canada and their citizens, which are
most certainly balanced and considered beforehand. I doubt it's an automatic
process merely because a treaty exists.

~~~
Kalium
You're right! It's by no means some run-of-the-mill legal process without
significant political implications.

It's a run-of-the-mill legal process that the Chinese government _has decided_
should have significant political implications for Canada and Canadian
citizens. It's important to bear in mind that this was a set of decisions
deliberately chosen by the government of China in response to Canada obeying
its obligations clearly laid out in a readily available treaty.

As you so wisely and correctly note, _no_ legal process is automatic. Yet
routine extraditions, even of politically sensitive people, come quite close.

------
skh
I think the only way for the U.S. to go back to a sane system for
international travelers is for people to stop visiting the U.S. for vacations.
We won't change until large businesses like Disney take an economic hit.

~~~
scrooched_moose
Or for other countries to start enforcing these same policies on US travelers.

US citizens don't realize this is a problem because it doesn't affect them, so
they don't try to change it.

Get the entire EU to treat us as crappy as we treat them and there will be
pressure to change it. I say all of this as a US citizen who travels abroad
somewhat regularly.

~~~
mikeash
That won’t help, because it won’t affect most of us anyway. Most Americans
don’t even have a passport (there are currently 137 million American passports
in circulation), and many of those who do are only using it to drive to Canada
or Mexico.

~~~
scrooched_moose
No it won't affect most people but it will affect some; which is a whole lot
better than none.

Also, it would disproportionately affect upper class and business travelers
who are frankly more likely to get things done. Make it a burden for Bezos and
Zuckerburg to travel and they'll raise more than enough stink. Toss in my
company getting pissed at how much time I waste on paperwork every time I do
an overseas trip and things could move.

------
sandworm101
>> "The United States does not allow sterile transit, which means that even if
you have an immediate connecting flight, you have to pass through Customs and
Immigration. This is time-consuming and tedious"

The history behind this isn't as simple as politics. Many US airports have
evolved without the physical separation between local and international
departures areas. So all of the airport is "in" the US. That makes perfect
sense given the geography involved. The bulk of US flights are local. Even
with Canadian flights it is normal to clear US customs and immigration within
Canada prior to boarding the flight to the US. So, rather than politics or
protectionism, there simply was no practical need for separate terminals.
Starting from that history, it is far easier to screen all passengers as they
land rather than retroactively divide an airport into zones.

LAX is notable for having separate local and international terminals, but iirc
everyone is still screened on landing.

~~~
InTheArena
This isn't all that unusual either. From what I can tell from my travel, this
is more of a European thing then anywhere else, as I have not been able to
transit without clearing local customs in Tokyo, Shanghai, Mumbai, Hong Kong,
Seoul or Bangkok. Call it an accident of geography - most travel in the EU is
technically international, because the EU is a loose confederation at best
rather than a federal government.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
I was able to transit Seoul (South Korea) without clearing customs. This was
in 1984, though, so things may have changed...

~~~
InfamousRece
They haven't (as of 2018 at least).

------
vanekjar
I would extend it to - avoid transfers anywhere in North America (including
Canada). US and Canadian airports are pain in the ass regarding customs and
immigration. Better to transfer in Europe or Asia and fly directly from there.

~~~
travelbuffoon
Canada is massively better - many routings don't require going through
security, leaving only a cursory immigration check (at special transit desks).

~~~
khuey
Er, really? Usually it's the other way around. i.e. when flying from country A
to country C via country B, in country B's airport you just go through a
cursory _security_ check but no immigration or customs formalities.

~~~
travelbuffoon
Yes, indeed. US/Europe to -> rest of world (except US) involves no security
when transiting Canada.

Domestic connections do require security, connections to US generally require
preclearance security. Connections from most other countries also go through
security.

The odd thing is that they don't separate arrivals: so you'll mingle with
worldwide arrivals, go through transfer immigration with everyone else, and
finally you show your boarding pass and get routed either to the departure
gates, or to security, based on your boarding pass.

~~~
travelbuffoon
Disclaimer: this might not be the case at all airports, but certainly YVR and
YYZ have implemented this.

------
djsumdog
I had no idea you had to go through customs in the US simply to transfer
international flights. That's INSANE!

I've had connecting flights though Moscow and Doha and didn't need to "enter"
those countries or have a visa just to switch planes. Sometimes you go though
another security checkpoint, but I've never had to present my passport until I
reached the destination country.

~~~
BeetleB
Not sure where you're from, but for many countries in the EU, you do have to
show your passport, and have a transit visa, _if_ you are from a set of
unwelcome countries. Many people I know avoid transits in the EU because they
don't want to pay the fees for a transit visa (and because people from other
countries don't need to).

------
m0skit0
As a citizen of a Muslim country this is very useful information, thanks a
lot!

------
dooglius
I was under the impression that international flights connecting through the
US put travellers in what is technically international territory, and doesn't
involve any of the difficulty associated with entering the country. Is this no
longer the case?

~~~
ipsi
Maybe? All I can say is that last couple of times I transited through LAX, I
had to go _all_ the way out through security and passport control - I could
have walked out the front doors of the airport - and then _all_ the way back
through. It was the same flight number, and the same physical plane that I was
getting back on!

I then decided that was too much of a pain, and flew through Dubai instead,
which has a _vastly_ superior transit experience!

~~~
delecti
> I then decided that was too much of a pain, and flew through Dubai instead,
> which has a vastly superior transit experience!

At least assuming you're not a member of a demographic for whom that's a
potentially dangerous location.

~~~
mdpopescu
What demographic is that? (I plan to visit Dubai next month.)

~~~
indigo747
To name one, trans people. It's my understanding that prescription drugs are
carefully controlled in Dubai, and HRT is not permitted, and carrying HRT
through Dubai can get you arrested and thrown in jail.

------
lvs
What a deeply saddening state of affairs.

------
treve
It's always worth at least $100 - 200 dollars to avoid a US transfer. The
machine guns, and tv's with propaganda of 'how great the US is' are all creepy
as hell. Not to mention being yelled at by border security. Seems to be pretty
common (in newark at least)

~~~
rconti
I'm not sure I've ever seen machine guns in public in the US.

I've seen them plenty in France, Germany, and other European nations.

That said, I generally recommend avoiding transits in places that have
restrictive policies or excessive landing fees.

~~~
roywiggins
I've spotted heavily armed cops in fatigues around JFK and NY Penn Station.
More often Penn Station. Did not care to stare too hard at their guns so I
have no idea what they were, but large assault-styled things slung on their
chests.

------
vertline3
I can see the US perspective with concerns after 2001. It is hard to have to
be scritinized, but it is a new reality.

Nothing wrong if you are a foreigner avoiding it. I don't think the anti US
crowd is productive here, because they still will have to keep the measures in
place.

