
The cold fusion race just heated up - duozerk
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-01/30/cold-fusion-energy-advances-2015
======
Animats
Oh, the E-Cat again. The E-cat takes in electric power, and supposedly puts
out more heat than would be expected. The electric power to resistance heaters
is input in a "proprietary waveform", and is measured with a wattmeter.

This is a typical thing with "free energy" scams. The same thing was tried
back in the "piezos" era, when putting resonant piezoelectric devices in an
oscillating tank circuit was supposed to produce more power than went in. (But
it did not, of course, run self-sustaining, without outside power).

Measuring wattage of unusual waveforms is hard. W = E*I, or watts equals
current times voltage, but you have to integrate the instantaneous product
over time. Many wattmeters don't do a full integration; they're mostly for
sine waves, and may have frequency limitations. The E-Cat guy won't let
observers use a scope to see that "proprietary waveform". All it's doing is
driving a resistance heater, so the waveform should not matter to the heater.

A simple RF wattmeter, which has a resistor whose heat output is measured,
would clear this up.

~~~
dnautics
A better experiment is a double blind trial. Fill one hydrogen tank with
standard hydrogen and another tank with deuterium. Code both of them with a
scramble. The e-cat should fail with deuterium and should work with hydrogen.

This does not require any access to internals, and could even be done on the
sly without alerting rossi.

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powera
It doesn't matter if it's a fraud, a con, or even real; this article is
terrible and should never have been published in any reputable news source.
These claims of being "verified" or "replicated" are completely false, not
least of which because there aren't any claims as to what is going on the
first place.

The claim "I have a magic box" isn't science, it's ... well, magic.

~~~
duozerk
(submitter here)

It's true that you _cannot_ replicate Rossi's allegations independently
because he refuses to reveal the way his alleged reactor works. However, the
"independent report" mentioned in the article basically tested this thing as a
black box for more than a month; Rossi was present at the start and at the
end, but not during the test, and all the equipment and so on was not his but
procured independently. Even if Rossi did some screwy stuff, it cannot explain
the 1.5 MWh gain for more than 32 days - the only thing that could explain
this, assuming it indeed is a con, is unreliable heat measurement. While it is
true that there has been some doubts expressed on that subject, the
researchers have a lot of experience performing such measurements; and they
are far from being disreputable researchers or shady characters. One of the
authors of the subsequent paper is also, by the way, the previous head of the
Swedish skeptics society - someone that does have some experience in debunking
bullshit claims.

I'm not saying this thing is working as advertised, mind you; but this report
is troubling and warrants further research. And the article isn't only about
the e-cat: it's about another researcher, Parkhomov, having set up a similar
experiment based on what he could glean from Rossi's alleged reactor, and
witnessing similar excess energy production. This other experiment _is_ , by
contrast, completely open and can be verified/replicated/debunked, so I
suppose it's just a matter of time before someone attempts such a replication
and confirm or infirm this new experiment.

~~~
Retric
That's not independent verification; it's not even vaguely close to
independent verification.

"Even if Rossi did some screwy stuff, it cannot explain the 1.5 MWh gain for
more than 32 days"

Sure, he could have literally hacked the instruments. But, 1.5 MWh over 32
days is a fairly small amount of energy as in 2kW * 32 days a lot of chemical
processes can get you there. Also, measuring heat output is really easy to
mess up. Something as simple as putting an insulating blanket under the device
could significantly alter the measurements. The point is he was there when
they were setting up the experiment so he could have easily lead them astray.

PS: As to _warrants further research_ nope, sorry the correct response is to
declare this a clear scam.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
The correct response is to _prove_ this a clear scam. Don't just say it.

~~~
Retric
Nope, the default assumption is always there running a scam. You need to prove
you’re not running a scam.

EX1: All those reporting requirements for public companies.

EX2: Credit checks before you get phone / internet service / rent an apartment
etc.

EX3: Passport check at the border.

EX4: Metal detectors at sensitive locations.

EX5: Professional certification requirements for Doctors etc.

EX6: FDA

ect ect.

PS: There are also a lot of hidden ones such as the dress code at many nice
restaurants which significantly reduces people dine and dashing. And camera’s
at gas stations. Or even just locked doors.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
It's fine for that to be your default assumption. But saying it, without
evidence, is slander.

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zalzane
>Scientists have never been allowed to examine the E-Cat, details of the
supposed physics have never been revealed, and even the identities of his US
business partners were only discovered by online sleuthing.

for fucks sake, why even publish such a bogus article

~~~
DennisP
Because it's not all about the E-Cat. "Parkhomov has openly revealed his
reactor design, ingredients used and experimental process, which is not
terribly complex, and this allows for further experimentation to take place in
the public domain, not under a cloak of secrecy"

I'm still a skeptic until plenty other people replicate it, but it's nice to
see that some cold fusion researchers are acting like scientists now.

------
MiguelHudnandez
Here's the one true test for any new generator: If there's a working
prototype, they could be selling power to the grid.

There is no need for publicity, investments, or shows. It doesn't matter if
someone can replicate your device. If it works, sell the power and build more
of them.

If it doesn't work, I guess just keep on trying to get money from other
people.

~~~
TheCraiggers
Your measurement for "what is true cold fusion" only works for devices that
are extremely showy and easy to put together (aka, Hollywood cold-fusion
reactors). For everything else, I see three problems with your statement:

Firstly, is it only cold fusion if you can build and operate your reactor for
cheaper than the price of your local utility? Would it not be a scientific
breakthrough if it were not immediately economically viable? Hard to make
money to build money for your proof when it costs you money to sell to the
grid.

Or, if it does manage to output energy cheaper than the local utility can
produce it, you have to factor in return on investment as well. If your device
costs $100,000 to create (which I think could easily be a low-ball estimate)
and generates $1 of energy a day for the grid, you're looking at a _long_ time
for your return on investment, and your proof.

And the above is only for devices that just magically output AC/DC power with
no extra infrastructure. If your device only generates waste heat, then you're
looking at building steam turbines, high pressure pipes, holding tanks, and
all the other expensive stuff a traditional energy plant takes. In order to do
that, you need a large investment.

------
sandworm
The con is not on us. He is not conning the public. He is not trying to get a
science foundation grant.

The targets are aging millionaires who lack science education. The US
(Florida) is full of people who made millions on the rise real estate and are
looking for a new investment. They are old enough to have seen the rise of the
internet and think they can get in on the ground floor of the next big thing.
They can believe in magic boxes because, for people who haven't seen a
classroom in 40 years, Google looks like magic.

Who knows how many "investors" this guy has fooled into handing over their
retirement savings. No doubt they are bound by scary non-disclosure agreements
and are afraid of speak out. The best person to con is one who, upon realizing
they are conned, will not have the resources to fight back. This guy doesn't
want Elon Musk's money. He wants you grandmother's.

------
tlb
I'm on record [1] as skeptical of the heat measurement techniques, especially
on the output side.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8435322](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8435322)

~~~
loblollyboy
this whole [0],[1] thing is so retarded

~~~
sp332
Be constructive, suggest something better.

~~~
jacquesm
Allowing links? This is after all the web...

------
eloff
This smells like a con in so many ways. I'm less curious about how it
supposedly works than I am about how he managed to trick those researchers. He
was on site, so presumably he could of had the opportunity for meddling with
the experiment.

~~~
joezydeco
_" The total net energy obtained during the 32 days run was about 1.5 MWh"_

If Rossi has found a way to hide that much energy in his rod and/or materials,
then let's just go with that and skip researching all the fusion stuff.

~~~
gizmo686
If he hid 1.5 MWh within the materials, then it is an impressive invention
regardless of if it is cold fusion.

If he manipulated the sensors to show a higher energy output then was actually
the case, it is considerably less impressive.

------
rpcope1
The claims of cold fusion still seem quite dubious. I remember having a lot of
doubts about that paper claiming "verification" of cold fusion, and given the
behavior of a number of members of academic community, it isn't too surprising
that you might find some academic somewhere that would be willing write
sketchy papers just to get published. Until a big national lab gets behind
this you may as well file this with N-rays:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_ray](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_ray)

------
NoMoreNicksLeft
I remember another jackass from the 1990s who made outrageous video
compression claims. He would give demos of his super-secret technology showing
wonderfully high def video...

Turns out he was running a coax cable underground to the table on which the
monitor sat.

Scientists are often good at determining what flaws of logic are causing
anomalous results, or teasing out subtle unknown processes.

However, they do poorly at debunking conmen because conmen are quite literally
trying to game all the tools that scientists use. Unless they slept in the lab
in sleeping bags, who is to say that there wasn't someone coming in the middle
of the night to give it a little boost?

All we have now is one crank from some backwater university in Russia who
claims to have reproduced the effect.

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kstrauser
Why isn't this bootstrapping itself? That is, if it's generating a substantial
amount of excess heat, why can't that heat be used to drive a generator to
power the device? I'd love to see a long-running E-Cat that's plugged into
itself.

~~~
jccooper
That would convince me. The fact that it isn't done is telling.

I'm sure steam-turbine generators are neither cheap nor easy, so up to a
certain point I can see skipping the expense and the hassle. But were I
strongly suspected of being a fraud, I'd put a self-sustaining setup high on
my list. I think the (incredibly high) interest in the device after such a
demonstration would make the effort worthwhile.

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thegeek112
Everybody says it's a fraud. But you have to admit it's a very long fraud (5
years?) and nobody complained about loses yet. It's not a fullfilled fraud
therefore it's not a fraud yet. To me Rossi looks more like a good entertainer
performing a magic routine: he pretends to pull energy out of nowhere, the
energy seems to appear, nobody loses money and nobody can use that energy (at
least not yet) and the enthusiastic public screams "it's a fraud !!!"

~~~
ChuckMcM
Three words "Moeller Air Car"

The point being that longevity of a fraud doesn't make it less likely to be a
fraud. Rossi as been pushing this thing for a long time but his inability to
actually use it to make excess energy he could use to sell to the grid is a
huge red flag for anyone who has looked at it.

~~~
msie
Heh, is there some internet rule about the mention of that car in any
discussion?

