
You win, RIM (An open letter to RIM's developer relations) - jammur
http://blog.jamiemurai.com/2011/02/you-win-rim/
======
btipling
The complaints are:

$200 price to develop with 10 app limit.

Multiple registration forms.

Requiring multiple downloads.

Requiring to purchase vmware fusion.

Installer that just copies an iso.

Having to password protect the simulator.

Bad documentation on how to load an app on the simulator.

The comparative ease with which you can do these things with android and ios.

~~~
jammur
Now I feel like an idiot for spending an hour and half writing it, lol.

~~~
kgutteridge
You did well to pull out early if you found this part of the process painful,
unfortunately end to end it feels like death by a thousand paper cuts. Theres
nothing glaring wrong through out but lots of annoyances which really add up,
when compared to iOS or Android development

We recently developed this so speaking from some experience
<http://appworld.blackberry.com/webstore/content/28561>

The bb version took far far longer than the equivalent iOS, simply because of
other nonsense such as the pain in the signing process
(isthesigningserverdown.com the fact it exists tells you all you need to
know). Random exceptions being thrown that have no useful meaning and of
course the joy of RAPC throwing errors such as "CreateProcess error=87,
Parameter is incorrect" which we eventually found was due to the classpath
being too long for RAPC to handle

However once complete the application it is something we are very proud of!

~~~
zzzmarcus
Ha. Clicked the link and came to a full page error:

Our apologies:

It looks like you are using an unsupported Operating System. BlackBerry App
World was designed to support the following:

Windows

Although you can browse BlackBerry App World with your current browser, some
features may not be functional.

To their credit they did let me continue.

~~~
kgutteridge
This ones even more amusing on the actual Blackberry App World

[http://failblog.org/2011/02/04/epic-fail-photos-
blackberry-a...](http://failblog.org/2011/02/04/epic-fail-photos-blackberry-
app-fail/)

------
alanh
Don’t forget Kik (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1935093>) and the
arbitrary way RIM may decide to not only take your app down, but sue you
(<http://www.kik.com/blog/2010/12/a-sad-day-in-waterloo/>), to boot.

~~~
Pahalial
Everything I've read and heard indicates it's really not that cut-and-dried,
what with the founder of Kik having been an intern at RIM and then basically
re-implementing BBM.

------
veeti
"Knowing what a pleasure it is to use Apple and Google’s tools,"

I haven't used the iOS SDK, but the Android SDK is far from "a pleasure to
use". The 3.0 emulator is so unusably slow that it makes it practically
impossible for me to adapt my app to the new tablet UI without going insane in
the process.

~~~
celticjames
The Android emulator is a full ARM processor emulator. Very slow and probably
always will be. My experience is that Android development is mostly impossible
without the real hardware. This Android x86 port looks promising though:
<http://www.android-x86.org/documents/virtualboxhowto>

~~~
TillE
Yeah, I'm really hoping that they switch over to x86 for the emulator soon,
the way Apple does it. It's not awful for simple apps, but it is genuinely
impossible to develop an OpenGL ES application on the Android emulator.

Use a real device, and the whole process is quite painless.

------
MattRix
Ok, as an iPhone + iPad app developer (I created Trainyard), and as a Flash
developer who has created a PlayBook app, and as a fellow Canadian, I feel I
should weigh in on this.

Despite the whiny tone and bizarre "Bueller?" moments, there were a bunch of
valid points made. Yes, the amount of forms you have to fill out is
ridiculous. Yes, the fact that the simulator .iso has an installer is crazy.
With those things, I absolutely agree with you. They're just silly... but
they're also not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

It took me less than 2 hours from when I decided I wanted to make a Playbook
app to when I had something running in the simulator. You're correct that the
iOS SDK is easier to get started with, and it's only a single download... but
it's also 3.5 gigs, _every single time_. I'll take three 100mb downloads over
a 3.5 gig download any day.

Ok, as for the cost of things... You only need to pay for VMWare if you're on
a Mac, on a PC it's free. I've talked to some guys at RIM about this, and they
said they were trying to work out a deal with VMWare to make it free for Mac
users as well.

There's no more $200 fee. I don't know why anyone still brings it up. The 10
app limit is a GOOD THING, and keep in mind that you're also getting a 100%
_free_ Playbook if you make an app right now, surely that's gotta be worth
something.

As for the notary thing, I'm guessing that's because of the free Playbook
offer. They don't want to give away 10 Playbooks to the same guy. If you're a
company, Apple's process is even more painful. You actually have to snail-mail
all your forms in and wait until they get them before you can publish
anything.

All the other complaints were just petty. Who cares about the IP address and
the password? That stuff takes 2 minutes to figure out.

There are a lots of positives about developing for Playbook that you didn't
mention. For example, an interesting (and not well-known fact) is that
application updates _do not_ require approval on App World. That's a _huge_
plus over iOS in my book.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on it.

TLDR: You definitely had some good points, but the rest of it got blown WAY
out of proportion.

~~~
rizer
I contacted RIM regarding the whole notarised deal. Here's what they said:

Me: As an independent developer I can afford neither to become incorporated,
nor to get a notary signature. Could you explain the reasoning behind this?

RIM: We require our vendors to be 18 years of age or older. This is why we
require a notary form.

Me: Is there not a way of proving that I'm over 18 other than spending £200 on
a lawyer? I could send you a copy of my drivers license?

RIM: We do not except photocopies unless they are notarized. You can try a
local bank or family doctor to see if they will notarize your documentation.

Me: OK, but what you ask for is a certified notary i.e. someone legally
authorised as a notary (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notary>). Are you saying
that this is not actually the case?

RIM: Correct, we would prefer a certified notary but sometimes it is difficult
for people to find them so we make exceptions.

Hopefully helpful to someone. Having dismissed PlayBook development
altogether, from what I've learnt since my blog post
([http://rizergames.com/blog/2011/02/11/developing-for-
playboo...](http://rizergames.com/blog/2011/02/11/developing-for-playbook/)),
I might be tempted to give it another go, although the number of things that
don't actually work on the simulator is still a massive hurdle.

\- Luke

~~~
krakensden
In California, at least, most cities have 1-2 that sell boxes, packing
material, a drop off point for shipping UPS, and notary services. Perhaps that
would be cheaper than hiring a lawyer?

------
mishmash
> You wanted me to print off a notarized statement of identification
> form....it goes without saying at this point, but neither Apple nor Google
> require you to do anything even close to that.

Actually, just a few months ago when renewing an Apple Developer Connection
membership, they asked me to do the _exact_ same thing.

To their credit, I emailed, summarized my history with ADC, bitched a little
bit, and someone took care of it the next day.

edit: typo

------
hrabago
The way I understand it, the $200 price is for 10 submissions, not 10
applications. So if your app has a bug, and you submit a version of the same
app which fixed the bug, and/or added features, that counts against the limit.

Think of it as a $20 fee for app review, bought in blocks of 10.

~~~
uptown
So they're essentially discouraging improvements to the apps in their
ecosystem because it costs the developer money to push out
upgrades/patches/fixes?

Genius.

------
ianbishop
One thing I am surprised to not see in this list is that, as an individual,
you are required to have your form faxed back after been signed by a notary.
AFAIK, this is not practice of Google or Apple either.

~~~
jarin
If you're a business, you do have to fax in your business documents before
your app will go live in the App Store (and it takes a couple of weeks to
process), but it's most likely going to take you at least a couple of weeks to
develop your app and get it approved so it's not so bad. And you don't need to
get it notarized.

------
circuitbreaker
Thank you for showing me that I wasn't the only one that had the same HORRIBLE
experience! I gave a valiant effort for a good 3 solid days, at which point, I
was much MUCH further along with the same tasks on iOS. For shame, RIM.

------
SriniK
Totally agree with the author. I too quit porting one of my apps to BB.

This is the reason why shortcuts (not making well integrated system) always
fail.

~~~
ardell
We've been frustrated to the point of abandonment on trying to install a
Blackberry simulator to test out jquery-mobile apps. Similar story to tell--
just kept hitting wall after wall of poorly thought-out and poorly documented
steps.

It's a shame because most of our customers use Blackberries but it's just not
practical for us to support Blackberry on our mobile apps.

------
DrewHintz
The simulator in the BB SDK reloads the BB OS every time you run an app. This
lead to a 60+ second delay every time I updated the app and wanted to run or
debug it. I gave up and thankfully someone else wrote the app:
[http://code.google.com/p/google-
authenticator/source/browse/...](http://code.google.com/p/google-
authenticator/source/browse/#hg%2Fmobile%2Fblackberry)

Disclaimer: I work for a possible competitor.

------
joelhaasnoot
Ah, you definately have never developed for any sort of linuxy or embedded
hardware that requires a full moon and the right software version every step
of the way. Oh, and the Android installer isn't flawless either: it does
require some setting up of cumbersome paths, but the installer of individual
SDKs (which to be fair are seperate files/downloads) works like a charm...

~~~
jammur
Guilty as charged on the first point :) The separate files/downloads was a
minor annoyance, but fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things. On
the whole, I just found it to be an very frustrating experience.

------
spacemanaki
If you think that's bad, try writing an app for a BlackBerry phone.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1959433>

~~~
tmountain
Indeed, writing Blackberry mobile software is an exercise in futility.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1463000>

~~~
spacemanaki
I feel your pain... I wish I'd read that comment about six months ago when I
started in a similar situation you were in.

------
kin
Yeah, the $200 was a major blocker for me. As a student, I just want to make
silly free game apps. $200 for $0 income? Well that's certainly not appealing.
On the other side, don't they not take any cut of your income from their app
store?

~~~
mortenjorck
Can anyone verify that, that RIM doesn't take a cut of sales?

~~~
gcheong
From the blackberry app world vendor agreement:

"5.1 Application Revenue Fee

Vendor shall pay to RIM thirty percent (30%) of Application Revenue..."

------
shimi
I was participating in a developers survey by Rim around a year ago (one of
those where they grab 10 engineers and put them in a room for some cash) and
the complaints were exactly the same!

------
westajay
I went through the same process, but didn't think it was that bad.

RIMs web signup download process needs to be cleaned up, and the Mac installer
thing was a bit weird, but I thought the docs were straightforward, and only
took me a couple mins to get the sample app deployed.

My gosh.. A command line program to remote install to the vm image! At least
there is a full intel compiled image, and not some buggy emulator.

You can also build decent apps using HTML and JavaScript, much like webos.

Is it just me, or has the HN crowd deteriorated to "enterprise-ey bad, apple
good"

There is a lot of opportunity in this platform, but not for consumer apps.
They will be very prevalent in business environments, and the os is damn
responsive.

~~~
zabraxias
It's a shame the term "enterprise" is used as an excuse for poor quality. This
isn't an attack on you I see it where I work too. Companies like Apple,
Blizzard, and surely others have shown being big doesn't have to impede
quality and user experience.

------
stevefarnworth
I was put off by having to get my forms notarized, not because it's
particularly difficult, but it seems to be a completely unnecessary hurdle.
After being dispirited by RIMs process, I immediately went and registered as
an Android developer - simple and done within 20 minutes.

I can't comment on the BlackBerry tools (nor the iOS ones, as I don't own a
Mac), but although Eclipse+ADT isn't the most elegant solution, it does seem
to work fairly well, and didn't take too long to set up.

Obviously a free PlayBook would have been nice, and I would like to have
gotten in at the ground-floor of a new platform, but RIM does have to take
steps to ensure it's easier for developers to do what they do best - develop,
not fight fires in the registration or set-up processes.

------
apinstein
As developers, we don't want all of these platforms. RIM is very developer-
unfriendly, and frankly so is Adobe, so I propose that we all do the sane
thing here; _ignore_ RIM to hasten its death. Or at least make them switch to
Android.

------
fleitz
The fundamental problem is that their devices works the same way as their
developer model. It's unintuitive, clunky and overpriced. The only thing RIM
has left is BBM. It's not worth developing for.

I got the legal bullshit from Apple too. Seriously, it had to be notarized, I
had to send Apple docs that had some kind of embossed type seal (I'm surprised
they didn't require it in wax) like I was delivering a proclaimation from the
King in the 12th century.

~~~
jammur
Were you registering as a business? I saw other commenters mention that they
had to jump through additional hoops when registering as a business, but I had
no trouble at all as an individual. Just put in my name, address, etc., pop in
my credit card number, and I was good to go.

------
aphexairlines
Very whiny. What kind of software developer needs everything spoon-fed to
them? "unix loving neck beards"? Oh, ok, I understand now.

------
foobarbazetc
RIM is a very developer hostile company, and they definitely don't care.

Most of the listed issues still exist for "legacy" BlackBerry development,
plus about 100 other things that we could go into (e.g., still no way to do
HTTP without having to worry about 6000 different connectivity methods and
managing them all is up to each and every app).

------
tajddin
I actually have an approved app for the PlayBook and actually found the entire
process quite straight forward, especially considering that both the sdk and
simulator are both in beta.

~~~
leanderleeco
Same here. I didn't find it a problem at all. It required a bit of piecing
together, but it was definitely not difficult.

------
DougBTX
This is quite similar to my experience. I installed Adobe Builder 4.5 beta
trial too, which after a bit of fiddling around (and confusion on my part
about the differences between 4.0 and 4.5 while following the tutorials) does
eventually get you a Build and Run button.

Edit: This page looks new, at least it lists all the downloads in one place:
<http://us.blackberry.com/developers/tablet/adobe.jsp>

~~~
jammur
I guess I should have mentioned I was trying to use the WebWorks SDK, not the
AIR SDK. I'll update the post accordingly. Thanks!

------
tjarratt
All of this rings true, with the exception of having some forms notarized.

My name on my forms did not match the name on my credit card when I paid for
my Apple Developer account. A short time later Apple deactivated my account
and left it in that state until I could provide them with notarized proof of
my identity. That is not terribly unusual, as far as I am concerned.

------
konop
The one thing wrong about this critique is that it is a GOOD thing there is a
charge for more apps on the app store. It stops the spamming that is prevalent
on apple's platform. It should be free for the first 5 and then a charge after
that.

------
danielodio
Maybe it's moot - Android apps on Blackberrys soon, it seems.

Here's a commemorative new logo for RIM: <http://go.danielodio.com/blackberry>

DROdio

------
donniefitz2
I hope this letter causes RIM to WAKE UP! You are not the dominant force any
more. Get with it.

------
vnchr
RIM: The next Nokia

~~~
shimi
Nokia actually are trying to sort their business

------
leon_
Hmm, I expected something ... well ... something really bad. But it looks like
the guy has just a very thin skin.

I'm an iPhone developer who signed up with the program as soon as it became
available and I can tell you: Becoming an iPhone developer was a major PITA.
It started with the registration (Apple let you wait for weeks after you
purchased the membership), then with taxes formalities (as a non us-citizen I
had to call the I.R.S. and get a w8-ben number ... mix a polish name with a
german address and an overseas phone call and you get a really fun time). Oh,
and I had to print out all my contracts, sign them and send them via snail
mail to some Apple subsidiary in Texas.

And then the fun just started - I spent days getting all the provisioning
profile stuff working (only to get my app to run on my device). Uploading the
finished app to the store was another story (there was no build & archive &
submit 3 click way - you had to build the distribution package yourself).

Considering RIM has just started their developer program for their playbook
I'd say that the blog post is exaggerated. The only thing that I think he's
right on is the 10 app/$200 limit ...

~~~
terhechte
I've also been an iPhone Dev right from the start and I didn't find it that
difficult. Sure, the provisioning stuff took some hours, and uploading an app
to an actual device was as simply as clicking 'build & run'. Publishing an app
was a tad more difficult, what with the distribution profile and whatnot, but
the developer in question didn't even get that far with RIM.

~~~
Stormbringer
Dude. The documentation for configuring your provisioning profiles and other
faffing around was _60 pages long_. If you messed up any single step in the
_60 page long process_ you had to go back to the start.

Also, yes, everything was love and kittens for North American devs, but the
process was (and still is) a major PITA for devs outside of NA.

------
idonthack
shut up about Bueller

------
mb1
The post is factually inaccurate.

\- $200 per registration fee is waived for now. In fact its been waived for
over a year now.

\- 10 app limit is not enforced either.

~~~
alanh
The post mentions that the fee is currently waived. And it’s not like the
author made up the 10-app limit, just because he wasn’t aware it’s currently
not enforced.

