

Need Advice: Quitting Job to Learn to Code... (and start my business) - jaypreneur

Hey everyone.<p>So, I've been contemplating this for a while and really need some advice. I'll try to be brief, but I apologize if I drag this on.<p>I work full time at a job I hate. Although it pays pretty well... I work until 9+ PM 25% of my time (like this week). It will be like that throughout January and February, for instance. Additionally, my commute (which varies due to where I have to be) is often two hours a day.<p>Ultimately, all of this time kills my ability to really learn code and focus on my business. I lose out on hours AND on mental stamina. It sucks. I'm all for working hard and would easily work 10+ hours (and can stay focused fairly easily) per day on something I am passionate about (this would include coding as 1. I know it'll help me create my business and 2. I think I'll enjoy it)<p>Currently, I have designed a website mockup, landing page, reached out to potential customers, and now I know I need to create. I consider myself competent on both the business and design side of things. I've been making small attempts to find tech co-founder, but it's difficult with no real traction (and no friends who do any programming at all, although one who is willing to learn... but that's another story).<p>So, I am at a crossroads. I am incredibly dedicated when I want something. I love learning. And I really want my business to succeed, not just for my benefit even, but because I truly believe my vision can make a great impact.<p>At this point, it looks like it will be very difficult to find a tech co-founder. Most are already doing their own thing, working for a startup with traction, or looking to work for a startup with traction. Someone like me, understandably so, is last on the list. Even if I find someone interested, I will be a difficult judge of talent. Additionally, we will need to work well together, have visions that fall in line, and so on... the perfect match is probably impossible. Even finding a reasonable match is incredibly difficult. It could take weeks, months, over a year...<p>In all that time/effort spent looking for someone, I am confident I can learn to code and develop something. I don't expect to be incredibly proficient, but be able to create something useable I hope. My idea isn't rocket science here. It's taking common internet technologies and combining them together. Ultimately, it's an idea and business that hasn't really hit its stride yet. I'm betting on the fact that it will and I want to be the business that is a part of (or the reason for) that.<p>I just don't know what to do. Fortunately, I am living at home for now and stay put if need be. That eliminates some obvious costs. However, having an income is helpful. Additionally, I definitely don't want to "waste" time. I'm one of those people who is always moving and doing something... I account for all my time internally. I want to make sure if I do leave my job it's the right thing to do and that I don't spend months without an income and end up with nothing to show for it.<p>So, if you guys could give me your thoughts, suggestions, anything you want to say, I'd greatly appreciate it. I would approach advice regarding the decision itself (i.e. "Leave your job! Go for it!" or "Stay there! Don't leave!") or advice on how to approach the situation after a decision is made (i.e. "If you leave, approach learning to code by reading X, Y, Z..." or "If you stay, look for a tech co-founder by trying X, Y, Z or use your salary to outsource a minimum viable product"). Or anything else you want to say! Please!<p>Last thing... I just want to say this forum is awesome and I love reading through the threads and great news articles everyone posts. I'm glad I found it.
======
nowarninglabel
Sound like you are on the right track, and increasing your technical chops is
definitely a good way to get to where you want to be or to at least give a
better impression to potential future partners.

That said, sounds like from this line:

>I want to make sure if I do leave my job it's the right thing to do and that
I don't spend months without an income and end up with nothing to show for it.

..that you are not ready to quit your job yet. It's a fairly high probability
that this is exactly what will happen. If you aren't comfortable with that
fact, then you don't have the risk tolerance necessary to go for this. At the
least though, I can say that if you do go through with it, no matter the
outcome, I highly doubt you will think you 'wasted your time'. If you look at
the report-backs on HN of those who have failed, almost everyone has learned
some skills and life lessons that made up for the experience.

~~~
jaypreneur
Hmm... I guess I have to just think about what I meant by "nothing to show for
it" to really think as to if I'll be okay leaving my job now and then looking
back at what I accomplished. I think the way I worded it was too vague.

I realize I won't be raking in money or something. Hell, perhaps I won't even
have my MVP close to implemented after those months. However, I'm completely
content if I feel that I've made good progress in terms of my learning to code
and being close to my goal of creating an MVP (which is really my main goal
right now, learning to code being the path to that).

I guess I just want advice from you guys, as hackers, to someone who can just
do HTML and CSS. Is it worthwhile to leave my job to learn code. Can I ever be
proficient enough for a future tech co-founder or investor to care?

I guess if I learn enough to create MVP and gain traction, then that answers
my question. Thanks for that reply, it helped me think that phrase through a
little clearer. If I decide to leave, I'll have to keep my expectations on my
accomplishments reasonable.

------
fate_carver
jaypreneur,

1) I wish you the best of luck. 2) As Buffett said, "Invest in what you know."
3) Hire the best you can afford to help you with the tech issues.

Regarding 3: You go and learn all you can, write some code, etc. The more you
learn the more you will realize you are in over your head (I hope you learn
that). Besides the security issues you have never heard of, or the scaling
issues, or the caching issues, you are not a Developer!

To paraphrase Buffett, "Stick with what you know." If you have a good,
marketable, revenue-generating idea then you are doing well. You can generate
good ideas, that is great! Show your idea/attempt/mockup to potential tech co-
founders. If the basics are sound any reasonable techie will see ways to
improve it for you and take the bite.

I am sure that you did not mean to insult all of the techies out here by
saying you can learn to code in a year a two, but there is much more to our
craft than banging keys or struggling with memory leaks...we have experience
that you will never have if you part-time half-ass it. Either become a "coder"
full-time, or find someone that has. I am known to be a hard ass, so please
forgive me, but you don't have to code the solution/vision yourself...in fact,
please don't. Reading your post I see a lot of 'impossible' statements. jay,
if you want your idea to move forward with realistic performance, hire
someone. If you don't have the money, search for the money, if you can't do
that, search for the talent. If you believe in your idea and can convince a
techie to believe in your idea, well, your search is over. I am sure you have
heard this before but "Ideas are a dime a dozen." It is true, even with
mockups, but if you need a tech co-founder, I think you came to the right
place.

Read 1) 2) 3) again.

FateCarver

~~~
jaypreneur
Thanks for the reply! (as well as your other one, which I've responded to in
the wrong order, ha)

I think my other reply regarding outsourcing vs doing it myself frames what
you have said here perfectly.

Ultimately, I do not at all think I can learn to code in a few months or a
year or even 2 (well, be as proficient as I want to be and should be anyway).
I know for that a fact, just based upon myself researching and learning about
all the different languages, frameworks, terminology, and so on. Even that
tiny amount shows the immensity of what there is out there. To be proficient,
it takes YEARS. I don't underestimate it all.

As a result, I do ultimately believe I have 2 choices: outsource or do it
myself. I'm honestly leaning towards outsourcing at this point since if I need
a technology guy regardless than why not get an MVP put together sooner (and
better) by outsourcing?

I guess it plays off what you've quoted: "invest in what you know" and I don't
know coding, so perhaps I should hire what I can afford and ultimately look
for someone to join forces with myself once I've created an MVP and traction
and have something to really show for myself.

I might not have the technical know-how to bring to the table, but I believe I
have other valuable qualities and a great idea and vision.

Thanks for wishing me luck and I appreciate the advice.

Thank you for all the posts from everyone thus far! I really needed to have
the conversation, get opinions, etc. It is so helpful.

------
pnathan
\- How many months of savings do you have?

\- How much selling do you have to do to break even?

\- How long do you have until you get that much selling?

That gives you the numbers.

Coding is not as easy as some make it sound (nor as hard as other make it
sound). If you get the functionality working to a degree where customers are
paying for it and sticking around, you probably can find a techie to revamp
it.

Personally, I am sufficiently risk averse that for most products I've thought
of, I'd have to see cash incoming before I quit my job.

~~~
jaypreneur
Thanks for the questions. I will be asking myself those questions and
analyzing the answers.

A question they bring up in my mind though would be the opportunity cost of
creating it myself vs. outsourcing.

If I ultimately plan on finding a tech co-founder to come on board and revamp
it, hopefully playing the part of CTO, then it seems wise to compare the costs
of getting there via my own work vs. outsourcing, no?

DO IT MYSELF

Benefits

1\. I learn skills that will help when doing simple iterations (before having
tech partner on board), assessing future tech partner, and attracting tech
partner.

2\. I hate my job and would rather learn to code and build my business.

Costs

1\. The time it takes to learn is time I can't be earning a salary. This could
be up to 6 months or more. Let's say this costs me 30k.

OUTSOURCING

Benefits

1\. I keep my salary (even though I hate my job) while MVP is created. This
could be positive 30k+.

2\. Outsourcing the MVP is likely far faster, let's say 2 months. This also
means I can potentially get to customers faster and gain traction (maybe find
partner faster as well)

Costs:

1\. Of course, the outsourcing itself over those 2 months could very well be
250 hours of work. At 50 dollars an hour (reasonable?), that's 12.5k. Let's
assume 10-15k range.

2\. Unfortunately, I lose out in terms of learning, which helps in terms of
iterating (before having tech partner) and finding and evaluating potential
tech partner.

To me, it looks like outsourcing has the potential to save me in both time (a
couple of months, at least) and money (15 - 20k). I guess I need to assess if
learning to code myself extensively if worth that cost if I don't plan on
really becoming incredibly proficient (as I recognize it takes years).

Any opinions on that analysis of the situation?

edit* I just wanted to mention I don't claim that my above analysis is
accurate. It could very well take an entire year to develop a useable MVP
myself, which would be 60k in opportunity cost. Additionally, the outsourcing
estimate of 15k and 2 months could be 30k and 4 months, or more. I am not
expert on the implementation and realize that. Please consider that and take
the idea behind the analysis into consideration rather than the numbers
themselves.

~~~
fate_carver
How old are you? Outsourcing? To where? Part of the problem is a "Tech Co-
Founder" is already making $300k+ a year. If you want someone to throw a few
hours your way, you need to sweeten the pot and step up the talk a bit. Some
"Tech co-founders" would actually have to use their time spent on your idea as
a write-off. jay, I'm not trying to smackdown on you but what do you have to
offer your tech co-founder? Even if you learn to code, what can you offer?
Will you need a Marketing VP too? Or legal advice? Or accounting help?

~~~
jaypreneur
I'm 24.

In regards to "where" for outsourcing. That is something I have not looked
into in detail, but potentially anywhere as long I received quality code.

But anyway, to your other question directed at me (and no need to think your
trying to smackdown because I agree entirely with your sentiment), what do you
offer...

The things I offer:

1\. Vision - I know, to some this (like an idea) means very little

2\. Design - I am competent with UI/UX, as well as designing using photoshop
and illustrator.

3\. Sales/Marketing - I can sell. I'm a good orator and I'm passionate and
persuasive (or so I've been told and experienced). In regards to marketing,
I've read and learned plenty about it and am always learning more, although I
won't claim to be an expert.

4\. Accounting/Business - I'm an accountant (well, auditor with CPA) so I do
bring that to the table as well. Ultimately, along with accounting, I have a
good deal of knowledge on finance and general business issues as well.

Now, perhaps I'm naive to think the above is enough to offer a potential
future tech co-founder. However, it's what I've got and, above all, I am
incredibly passionate and hardworking. I know that would matter a lot to me in
choosing someone to work with (perhaps more so than raw talent/skills), so I
can only hope the same can be said the other way around.

Anyway, you also bring up a good point about the problem about the "tech co-
founder" in that they have far more opportunity (a good one anyway) than I
might offer, so why me? It's the reason I have made this post and offer up the
decision to code things myself or outsource. I know where I have a weakness,
even if I learn to code, I still won't be as proficient as I need to be. So, I
will need someone.

I guess my hope is that by actually creating something and having customers,
that traction (along with the list of things I believe I have to offer) will
entice a "tech co-founder" to come join up with me.

~~~
fate_carver
A CPA! Kudos. I know that is not easy, my fiancee just tested for her
CPA...but I would hate to see the code she would write : ) This is way before
your time, but Kenny Rogers had a lyric, "Got to know when to hold 'em, and
know when to fold 'em" which can extrapolate to your perceived need to do
everything. You can do everything, or anything, but where do you draw the
line? Janitor? QA testing? Chief Bottle Washer? I'd "hold" on running the
company, but "fold" on writing the code.

If you do decide to "outsource" do you mean offshore? Perhaps Rent-a-coder
isn't a bad idea, but just make sure the coder(s) are available after they
write the code, have them sign a non-compete, and possibly outsource a second
coder to review the code if you are not getting the warm and fuzzies from the
first team. Ask for well-documented code including an overview explanation,
approach, architectural considerations, and lots of comments. Ask for their
best work. Again, I wish you the best and I hope that once you get your
prototype up you let us all know so we can kick the tires with you.

One last thing: Stop worrying about the tech co-founder and get this project
in the bag! Heck, the more you type the less likely a Tech Co-founder is going
to want to come on board! Get 'er done!

~~~
jaypreneur
Thanks Fate. Good luck to your fiancee, I know it's tough. If she needs any
advice on the exams, let me know.

You are right. I will just have to get it done. At this point, I'll go with
outsourcing, which doesn't necessarily mean offshore, but it could. I want
quality work. I will have to do my research about it but will look into sites
like rent-a-coder, odesk, elance, etc. I'll approach it as you said, I
appreciate the help.

I still will try to learn to code on a basic level to converse and not be
entirely blind to what's going on, but I'm not sure if it's a good choice to
try and program when it would take a significant time commitment. I'm not
against a time commitment, but by saving that time, it frees me to focus on
other areas of the business.

ANYWAY! I will stop with the typing.

It seems my choice is to stay with my job (although I might leave to find one
that is less all-consuming of my time) and outsource the initial development.
Obviously it would have been ideal if I already knew how to code or had a good
friend who could code and wanted to join me. Unfortunately, neither is the
case... and I'm not sure creating the MVP myself is the best proposition.

If someone thinks otherwise, let me know though. Perhaps I'm missing something
here.

Lastly, any advice on outsourcing development would be appreciated. Thanks.

~~~
fate_carver
Just had this pop up on my reader:
[http://appicurious.com/2011/10/26/inglorious-
applications/#....](http://appicurious.com/2011/10/26/inglorious-
applications/#.TqiFepud77k)

Like another poster alluded to, save up some money (keep your job). Interview
5+ developers with entrepreneurial tendencies, pick one, thank the others,
hire the one you picked, tier their compensation on milestones.

You already founded this, so looking for a co-founder is fairly moot. Hire
someone, give them a chance to shine, bring them in as a partner. If trying to
force the "tech co-founder" isn't working, try something else. As for
outsourcing...I think it is a silly word that means "not committed". You're
not committed to them, they are not committed to you...in the end you have
your prototype, but know far less about it then if you hired someone, even an
intern, and had them walk you through their process and the code...most
outsourced help would probably not do that for you. A less risky move is to
hire someone on 1099 for the project...you probably know more about those
rules than most.

If you _waste_ too much time fretting over the details, you'll never get it
off the ground. Check your balls, take the leap. You will never be 100%
correct (you damned accountant! : ) so take your best shot and learn what you
are made of.

Post an email link or phone number in your about and I'll give you a call and
a swift kick in the ass if you need it.

~~~
jaypreneur
I appreciate the link. It's good to hear someone say that design is important.
I've read similar sentiments here and there, but it's often touted that the
code is far more important (especially here, understandably so). I think there
definitely must be a balance and hopefully that means my talents are valuable.

Anyway, I appreciate the advice about hiring someone. I will have to consider
a way to go about doing that, it's tough though... being that I cannot
hire/pay someone for too much of an extended period of time. I just don't have
that money.

However, it is definitely a better route than outsourcing for the reasons you
mentioned. I guess I'll just have to see if I can find a way to make it
happen, the intern example is a possibility.

I'll try not to waste too much time on the details and trying to be 100%
correct (lol, you've got me with that one). I'll be making the leap, soon.

I have added my email to my "about me" so feel free to shoot me an email and
give me a hard time if I'm not getting going!

Anyway, thanks again. I truly appreciate the feedback.

~~~
fate_carver
You, and I and most of HN, see this conundrum every time we want to start
something. In your case, since you don't have the geek chops, you have the
following choices:

1) Get lucky and find a TCF willing to work for equity. 2) 'Hire' a
company/freelancer to build your MVP 3) Hire someone to grow with you and
build your MVP 4) Do it yourself

My opinion is that if your product is actually worth all of this fuss then you
have to put your money where your mouth is. I would keep the job, read more
about development, save some money, and figure out how you are going to hire
someone on a project basis (1099/freelancer)...there will come a time, MVP or
not, that you will have to make that leap. Sure, today is not the day. Let's
say you get your MVP created, its a hit, and then what? What about hosting it
on EC2 or dedicated servers? What about some marketing? What about some legal
reviews? What about incorporating (kinda need that to realistically spread
equity to partners and investors)? If you did outsource the MVP how are you
going to get your new dev team up to speed when you do hire...and what if it
needs to be rebuilt from the ground up because the outsourced dev did not take
scaling, security, or authorization into account? What about the other 10,000
things that are going to hit you?

You'll be fine. I see a lot of people that have the best of intentions that
are not fiscally capable of starting a business. You at least have a job. Some
of these stories of creating the next whiz-bang site with 10 Million users on
the first day and only $1.57 in startup capital are definitely the exception
and not the rule. If you compare yourself to that success, then you are being
unfair on yourself and on your future team. All of this lean startup talk
ticks me off because some times you do need some capital to make it happen.
That is where outsourcing may help a bit, but what ask yourself if losing the
knowledge of the code is worth it? Fate's word of the day: Conundrum.

~~~
fate_carver
jaypreneur's head must have exploded. : )

~~~
jaypreneur
Nope. Fortunately, no explosion. :) I actually just had a late day at work so
haven't gotten a chance to come back to this.

But in regards to your reply. It really sums everything perfectly and I can't
thank you enough for your help. It has given me a lot to think about and
figure out... and ultimately start accomplishing. I think the route of hiring
someone to freelance and not just have it outsourced and part ways is a far
better strategy. If they can guide me through what they are doing, why they
are doing it, and even be there after completion as well... it'd be 100 times
better than being left with a cheaper site but being a bit more blind to
what's going on and when going forward.

Again, I can't thank you enough for your help.

------
felipepiresx
you already know the answer. you just want us to give it to you in better
sounding words.

we don't have crystal balls. fact of the matter is. if you have nothing to
lose and everything to gain. go for it. calculate whats the most viable way
and don't wast time .

~~~
jaypreneur
Ha. When I think about it... that is exactly what I want. It's just a tough
decision. Even if I know I ultimately want to leave and pursue this full time,
being that I've never done something like this before, it's nice to get some
on it thoughts, whether reassuring or against what I'm thinking, just to help
me.

Ultimately, what I have to lose is just potential income. My job is one that
(especially in NYC) is in demand and I have the qualifications to get another
job if things went south, so I'm not really afraid of being out of a job if I
needed money.

To be honest, I really never want to go back to what I'm doing anyway. I don't
know if anyone else feels like this at times, but every moment I slave away I
think about how much I could be accomplishing if I could use my time how I
wanted to use it. The job sucked before I had that nagging thought... now it
becomes unbearable at times.

