

“Flower of Battle,” a combat manual created in the first decade of the 1400s - benbreen
http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/2015/03/fiore-dei-liberi.html

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stcredzero
I've been watching HEMA videos, and it's quite interesting how little
resemblance fighting with sword/spear/shield on TV and in movies has to the
real thing. I am not a HEMA practitioner, however here is a some of what I've
gleaned from their videos:

No one sane would take off their helmet in the middle of a battlefield for the
most important fight/battle. You don't slice with a sword through plate armor
or decent chain mail. It just doesn't happen in real battle conditions. For
that matter, it's not so easy to slice through padded cloth gambeson armor!
Also, the "reality-tv" shows that have covered historical weapons are often
bogus. You "half-sword" to wrestle your opponent to the ground, then guide the
stabby point of a specialized sword through an eye-hole or other gap in their
armor. Likewise, real battles between knights didn't consist of them bashing
at each other, using their swords crudely like glorified metal clubs.

Long exchanges of blows/parries in movies are just for show. In fact, there
are fighting manuals that urge you not to parry if you can help it, but rather
always "bind" a weapon in the process of some kind of counterattack.

Social class meant a hell of a lot. On the battlefield, it determined how much
armor you could afford to keep up, which made a big difference to how likely
you'd be killed.

Most swords were sidearms, not main battlefield weapons, analogous in role to
an automatic pistol vs. an assault rifle. For most of western history, and in
many other parts of the world, the main battlefield weapons were polearms,
often used in conjunction with a shield. This even applies to a certain extent
to Japan! (Though the naginata fell out of favor and for awhile actually
became a sign of social status for women.)

Katana are not magic, and there were and are european, middle-eastern, and
indian subcontinental swords capable of equivalent feats of cutting.

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bglazer
In the movie "The Lion in Winter" there is a fight scene that is quite similar
to what you describe as accurate. It's actually quite disturbing, as it
depicts the frightening amount of intimacy involved in wrestling someone to
the ground, pinning them to the ground, and then struggling to stab them to
death. Not exactly the glorious victorious violence depicted in most movies.

~~~
stcredzero
If you want disturbing, try the "Hardcore History" podcast where he explores
the personal implications of what we know about being on the losing side of
the Battle of Canae. Very disturbing, and even backed up by archaeological
data.

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gknoy
I haven't bought them, but it looks like the podcast archives can be bought:

[http://www.dancarlin.com/product-category/hardcore-
history/c...](http://www.dancarlin.com/product-category/hardcore-
history/classic-hardcore-history/)

I was disappointed that they weren't a free podcast, but ... I guess that's a
reasonable price if the material is well done.

~~~
dibujante
It's worth it. My only regret is that the bundling/sales model just makes it
hard to track what you have and also to fill in gaps in your collection.

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benbreen
I was wondering who the figure with the beard and golden crown was - turns out
it might be a depiction of the author himself! (According to this [1], which
also has a full translation.) I love this bit from his preface:

"I say that when I taught this art I taught it secretly, so that no other
person was present except for the student and some close relatives.

Also, it happened that when others were present they stayed with Sacramental
promise not to divulge the plays they saw from me, Fiore.

And most of all I was wary of fencing Masters and of their students. And they
invited me, the Masters, out of envy, to fight with sharp and pointed swords
in an arming jacket, without any other armour except for a pair of chamois
leather gloves, and all this had happened because I did not want to practice
with them nor teach them anything of my art.

And this accident happened five times, so that I have been requested ['called
out']. And five times, for my honour, I have had to fight in strange places,
without relatives and without friends, not trusting others, but in God an the
art and in myself, Fiore, and in my sword. And by the grace of God I, Fiore,
remained with honour and without scars upon my person."

[1]
[http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Fiore_de%27i_Liberi](http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Fiore_de%27i_Liberi)

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fisadev
If you want to read the full book, or any other original sources on European
martial arts, there is a well known wiki where to find them all:

[http://wiktenauer.com/](http://wiktenauer.com/)

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daktanis
Awesome site!

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tokai
If you like old combat manuals, you should checkout Hans Talhoffers' "Alte
Armatur und Ringkunst". It has been digitized in nice quality. Page 162 is
especially interesting.

[http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/tha...](http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/thalhofer/thott-2_290.html)

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Do you mean the man and woman? pp 163+ (eg 164, 165) - the series shows a man
in a hole with what appears to be a sharpened club or an unusual short sword.
The man is fighting against a woman who bears a length of cloth with a weight
in the end (perhaps a stocking with a stone in). The man and woman are in a
small arena and wear white tabards/surcoats decorated with the St.George
cross.

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tlear
If you are interested in some amazing HEMA(historic european martial arts)
videos check Matt Easton channel
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCt14YOvYhd5FCGCwcjhrOdA](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCt14YOvYhd5FCGCwcjhrOdA)
I been an addict for a long time. It is fascinating just how bad depictions of
fighting are in movies, even ones considered good.

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daktanis
Sure Fiore is cool and all but Kunst des Fechtens by Meyer is where its at. :P

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loganmhb
There's a place in Chicago that teaches longsword classes based on the
reconstructed fencing school of Fiore dei Liberi, who wrote this book.

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Varkiil
I love the first image
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/bibliodyssey/16180332158](https://www.flickr.com/photos/bibliodyssey/16180332158)
I bet it says : "Don't aim for the head, you need to aim for vital parts. Hit
the balls"

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thechao
The swords illustrate the seven basic "strokes": six in a "flower", and one
stab (the bottom one). Mastering all of the ways to get your weapon from point
"A" (near you, in a proper guard), to point "B" (somewhere inside of your
opponent), through one of these directions, is the purpose of the book.

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inDigiNeous
Oh man what a cool manual. The hand combat style looks a bit like Wing Chun,
anybody else see the resemblance ? :)

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wildlogic
Funny, I was just thinking about that.

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delcaran
I don't have nothing useful nor interesting to say, but I was born and I live
in Premariacco.

That's it.

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hans_mueller
Not sure why - but this looks as fake as a six dollar bill ...

