
Hey Gruber, what about the users? - brilliant
http://scripting.com/stories/2010/08/31/heyGruberWhatAboutTheUsers.html
======
avar
I don't own an iPad but I think Apple's non-support of Flash is great. It's
shipping the first major web browser in the last decade that's explicitly
_not_ supporting flash.

So it's helping to make Flash more irrelevant every day, by forcing developers
to finally consider that delivering their content in some executable binary
blob isn't a reasonable thing to do on the web.

Thanks, Apple!

~~~
jfno67
The point Dave makes in the original post, is that he sees new flash content
being produced, so the boycott is not working. I think it is more productive
to focus on promoting html5 to make flash irrelevant.

~~~
avar
Of course sites are still going to produce content in Flash, but nowadays they
at least have to consider that by doing so they're making it impossible for an
ever increasing market segment to view their content.

I ran Debian on a PPC machine a few years ago so I couldn't use Flash. Back
then only very odd setups like that didn't have it. Nowadays millions of
people are buying new top of the line devices that don't support it, so the
tide is turning as a result.

------
tjogin
Even if Apple wanted the iPad to support flash, how could they? A working
mobile flash implementation does not exist, certainly wasn't even close to
existing at the time the iPad was released, and the lack of it doesn't seem to
have affected sales.

How could you possibly complain that the iPad doesn't support software that
doesn't exist?

Let's postpone this discussion until when Adobe can show off a flash runtime
that a) exist and b) doesn't suck. Is that too much to ask?

~~~
JoelMcCracken
When I see people jailbreaking their iPhones to support flash, and flash works
well, then the community should talk. Can't agree with you more.

~~~
cjlesh
Check out:

[http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/07/how-to-install-flash-
on-y...](http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/07/how-to-install-flash-on-your-
jailbroken-ipad-for-real/)

~~~
JoelMcCracken
Sorry, I'm not trying to say that this wasn't yet possible, just that I want
to see a number of people doing it. Are the reports good? does it work very
well?

------
pistoriusp
We must be using different Internet or maybe the website I browse aren't flash
heavy.

I cannot recall a single instance where I thought... "Damn! If only I had
flash on my iPad/ iPhone."

~~~
jonknee
Try browsing for a new car or clothes. For whatever reason both of those
verticals are highly dependent on Flash and as such unusable on the iPad. I
would have thought luxury brands would have figured out by now that iOS
demographics trend affluent and should be valued.

Update: Case in point...

<http://hugoboss.com> \- usable mobile site, but you can't see or buy any of
the clothes!

<http://bananarepublic.gap.com/> \- "Flash required" error message and the
same goes for the other Gap brands

<http://gucci.com> \- it's just a black screen

<http://dior.com> \- "Flash required" error

Etc etc, it's nutty. Car sites are a little better and usually break in more
subtle ways (videos that don't work is common). Cadillac actually has a nice
iPad optimized site, so kudos there.

<http://mazdausa.com> \- redirected to a really low-fi mobile version with
much less information. A step up from WAP, not much.

<http://bmwusa.com> \- same as Mazda, a really horrible mobile site that is a
column about 200px wide

<http://www.miniusa.com/> \- "Flash required" error page

~~~
silvestrov
It seems like those sites are exactly the kind of products I prefer to look at
In Real Life, and not just as pictures on a computer.

Due to broken bones which forces me to stay at home, I've bought clothes
online and it has resulted in a significant number of unpleasant surprises
which are trivial to avoid in a physical shop. My (Danish) experience is that
the shops that provide the most useful information are the shops that avoid
Flash and uses plain html pages (e.g. Amazon, smartguy.dk).

Flash-based sites almost always makes it impossible to add "I probably want to
buy this" bookmarks in the browser, so a lot of items don't get bought by me.
So even when the browser supports Flash, the site starts out with a
significant handicap (looking at you, H&M) ... and I don't have the patience
for the transition animations that most Flash developers think is a must-have.

~~~
jonknee
I typically browse online before making it to the store. If I see Hugo Boss
has a nice looking new collection and I need a new suit I can then drop by the
store. Maybe it's just that I don't like shopping, but I always do my research
first.

Also, looking at my outfit today it was entirely bought online except for my
socks and underwear. No broken bones either, I just find it convenient for
clothes that don't need tailored.

------
raganwald
I wish Dave would read and abide by "How to Disagree." The wisecrack about
Gruber's minions takes a reasonable discussion and reduces it to Fox-
Newsworthy labeling and ad hominem rhetoric.

People who agree with Gruber are cut from much the same cloth as people who
want the choice of whether to run Flash.

~~~
sprout
It would be a great start if Gruber would read it.

~~~
raganwald
I think I can hold my opinion and agree with yours simultaneously. Upmodded.

------
drivebyacct2
"My perspective is that of an iPad user. I like the damned thing. But I feel
like a pawn, and I don't like that."

I'm tired of seeing people complain about this. Apple has made their
intentions clear from iPhone 1, day one. You are buying a read-only pass into
the walled garden. If you don't like it, pick up a Galaxy Tab on VZW (arguably
a better network) or wait for Motorola's dual core tablet later this year
running the more tablet-centric Gingerbread. But cut it out complaining "as a
user" about Apple.

Also: "Maybe if (hint hint) Gruber had comments on his blog, his minions
wouldn't feel the need to vent on the sites he points to? Just a thought."

...this again? Really?

~~~
tjogin
Dave should be able to sympathize with John, given that he's deleted quite a
few comments off of that page (no cussing either).

~~~
drivebyacct2
What were the comments about? Why were they deleted? Critical of the author,
content, etc?

------
napierzaza
I think it's less about whether Apple has Flash and more about how Gruber
deals with dissenting opinions. I've seen him do hit jobs on bloggers for
_their_ opinion and small-time indy programmers for their design with no
provocation.

~~~
pohl
What qualifies as a "hit job" here? A dissenting post with a link? Isn't that
what the "global conversation" on the world-wide-web is supposed to be all
about?

