
Advice needed: "friend" stole my idea...what to do? - pissedoff

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pissedoff
Back in Jan I went to a person well respected in the startup community (PG
knows her) in BOS. She was a friend of a friend, I've known her for years..she
previously had a high profile startup that crashed in the dotcom era. I wanted
to bounce the idea off her and get her feedback. So I sent a presentation
(marked confidential) and followed up with an hour long chat, which was
helpful. She moved to the west coast the day after we talked and 2 weeks later
I find that she taken my 90% of my idea, mixed it up with social network and
gotten seed funding from a small west coast VC. I've been developing this idea
on a shoestring and on the side for 6 months. I've got a lot invested in this.
She's hired a indian development firm and been spamming blogs with her site
name to get registrations. I've applied for a patent, but not sure it can be
of any help right now. What action should I be taking? (besides wanting to run
her over)

~~~
litepost
Trust in karma. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," saith the Lord. :)

~~~
nickb
Karma doesn't exist.

<http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/Ellis11.html>

~~~
Tichy
That article falls a bit short, though. While probably there is no metaphysic
power enforcing a karma balance, I like to think of the karma concept as
simply another formulation of common wisdom. Some murderers get away with
murder, but most probably don't, or if they do, they suffer from it etc.
Likewise stealing ideas as a habit might eventually ruin your reputation and
your career (although you might be filthy rich by the time).

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nickb
I read all the comments and can't believe no one gave you some concrete
advice. Sure, ideas are worthless until they are implemented but that does not
JUSTIFY someone STEALING your idea and breaching the confidentiality! Just
because you haven't implemented your idea fully, does NOT mean someone's
JUSTIFIED to STEAL it!

Here's what you should do: expose her! That's right, start a blog, start the
website for your idea and tell everyone how this person got the idea from you
and breached the confidentiality. Post email exchange, provide a timeline of
your conversaton with her, provide what you provided her with. Get it out in
the sunlight. Investors and VCs will shun away from her since who wants to
invest into a person that's a THIEF and invest into a company that might get
sued by somoene (you)?! Startups have a low probability of success and these
legal issues could just sink it. It's easier to invest into a "clean" startup.

Get the word out about her! Learn about SEO and work on getting your page to
show up on the first page results when someone searches for her name. Talk to
journalists (TC, GigaOM, etc) and get them to write about what happened to
you. Expose her and get some publicity about your site in the process! Destroy
her reputation! NEVER forget: in business, reputation is everything! Worst
thing you can do is keep quiet about it.

~~~
cwilbur
Why waste the energy on revenge? Even if you succeed at destroying her
startup, you'll be left with nothing. She won't have anything either, but
that's pretty cold comfort.

Implement the idea yourself and do it better than she does.

------
litepost
If its any consolation, Google announced plans to emulate a lot of the
functionality planned for our new email client, Litepost, days after we
started announcing and exploring our ideas with the public and users:

<http://mail.google.com/support/bin/request.py?contact_type=suggest>

I'm not saying they ripped us of course (who could possibly prove that?) but I
will say that the timing is awfully coincidental, given that the overall ideas
behind our program have been in development for almost a year (and we just
started publicizing our ideas recently)!

Personally I take it as a compliment, and am grateful/flattered to have such a
large competitor emulating plans we've had in development for a while. (The
main thing we heard while pursuing this idea was "How can you possibly improve
upon Gmail?" Well now Gmail itself recommends recommendations upon its
service.)

All this, however, corresponds directly to what PG says and some of you echo
below:

<http://www.paulgraham.com/startupmistakes.html> 8\. Slowness in Launching

(I'm new to this whole arena, so it's taken us a while to a) find the right
developers and b) get up to speed before launch.)

If anyone's interested in weighing in, I wonder if open sourcing our project
might help it or be of general interest/utility... is anyone interested in "an
Open Source Alternative to Gmail that You Can Install and Run on Your Own
Servers"? If so, I could use some help.

I am actually interested in ultimately duplicating _and open sourcing_ a lot
of the functionality of Google generally, in order to decentralize it (the
operation and its power, which after all is only algorithms + horsepower) and
nullify the negative privacy implications of Google. What do you think? Any
takers?

I think the only possible contender to Google is an open source alternative.
Let's Open Source Google!

PS From another news.YC article: "In Silicon Valley, Google-as-the-giant talk
is deafening. As others have noted, startups used to get the question "What
are you going to do when Microsoft does this?" and today, it's "What are you
going to do about Google?" Source:
<http://andrewchen.typepad.com/andrew_chens_blog/2007/04/google_a_tale_o.html>

~~~
sbraford
(warning: sorry, off-topic a bit here...)

hey nathan - glad to find you on here. (it's Shanti)

I've been meaning to tell you... is your model a hosted one?

One space that Google (nor Sprout) will ever dominate is a software model
where you allow clients to install your app on their own servers or VPSes.
(i.e. a JumpBox)

Clients then get the best of both worlds: 1) Your killer UI 2)
Privacy/Security/Control of their companies email data on their own server

Sure you've thought of this, just thought I'd give it a plug.

~~~
litepost
Hey Shanti- glad to find you here as well! :)

Yes this is along the same lines of what I am thinking recently too. It has
become impossible to compete with Google 'on their own terms' (so to speak).
So why not just tilt the gameboard a little bit, change the turf, even the
playing field back out a little bit? :) (Pardon the worn cliches.)

But seriously, on a related note, here's a very recent article partially
addressing this topic: Read/Write Web interviewing Google's open source
chieftain (Chris DiBona):
<http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/interview_with_4.php>

~~~
sbraford
Nathan - yes, exactly.

I think there's a huge market for something like this.

Not to mention partnering up with other big boys in the space to leverage
their networks / customers.

------
budu3
I think you should launch your idea ASAP to compete with hers. Since she's
using an off-shore dev team you might be more nimble in execution than she is.
It's harder to explain to a bunch of guys over the phone exactly what you need
done. I wouldn't advice partnering with her. You wouldn't want such a close
business relationship with someone you can't trust.

------
marketer
Don't feel bad. Just think of the original guy who came up with the idea for
facebook. Zuckerberg was PAID to work on his friend's version of facebook, and
he simply went off and created his own.

~~~
pissedoff
I vaguely remember reading about it, that guy got royally screwed. I dont want
my case to end up like that.

------
Leonidas
Launch immediately. It's your idea so you have a better understanding and the
ability to innovate much faster than she ever could.

Who cares if she was 'first' to do it...just make one that is better.

Someone mentioned partnering up with her - don't do it. "Fool me once, shame
on you, Fool me twice, shame on me"

What a shame, a friend messing up another friend. This industry is definitely
more cutt-throat than I thought.

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chmike
I'am interrested in this story because I might find my self in the same
situation. Here is the strategy I applied so far.

1\. Keep key aspects secret. One always has to release some info, at least to
get some feedback on the pertinence of the general idea or when we sell it.
But keep some trump cards hidden in your pocket. This is often related to the
'how' aspect of the idea where you could make a difference with a "stealer".

2\. Proceed in a way allowing you to prove that you shared the idea with X or
Y. This is one of the purpose of an NDA (non disclosure agreement). If you can
proove that, then you have a leverage on the stealer's investors because you
may publish it and it will call back into question their honnesty and
fairness. If they ripped you, they could rip clients. This is why public
opinion frowns uppon stealing ideas even if it's not illegal.

3\. If option 2 is not possible, then another leverage you have is that you
can publish the idea and put the investors at risk to face many competitors
and eventually freeware versions of it in a very short time. This is even more
effective if the product is not out yet.

Be aware that you represent a direct threat to investment when comming up with
such kind claim and want to use these leverages. So prepare your negation
before using those leverages. This means that directly after presenting the
problem to the investors, present the different options you have at hand.
First present the options that would require some sort of cooperation from
their side, second the only options left to you if they refuse (the one I
presented above) and third that you are open to any other options that they
may want to suggest and that would respect everybody's interrests.

Be aware that there are things that can't be undone and also that it is better
to have half of something than all of nothing. You can remind this rule while
argumenting your cause, but keep in mind that it applies to you too. So be
ready to accept an arrangement if possible. Keep a very open mind about the
options you will consider. For instance you could ask them to invest in
another idea you might have, but be very carefull to not blackmail them into
that. Just say that this would be an acceptable outcome for you if they agree
to it and that you would then drop the case because you don't bite the hand
that feeds you. Of course this suppose you have a valid alternate idea to show
them when you say that. But be carefull with this because VC can easily get
you out of your founded business if they want to. What you have to sell to VC
is your capacity to create value by your inspiration or vision. This is what
they are looking for.

There is alot more to say, but PG is much better than me at it.

------
veritas
Well...

1\. Partner with her if possible.

2\. Get a lawyer's opinion. There may be legal actions you can take, but I
can't provide any advice on this.

3\. Build faster and launch faster than her.

~~~
omouse
I'd go straight to #3. #1 won't work because he trusts her much less than
before. #2 isn't bad, but lawyers = $$$ right? and that $$$ and time could be
spent doing #3 no?

~~~
SwellJoe
And #4: ideas are worthless.

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mukund
Pissedoff, stop worrying and do your work and get your thing launched. if
people are copying your idea, it means its a great one. Second thing is, world
is full of copycats and even if she had not steal u r idea, some one would
have become your competitor pretty fast. so think her as your competitor and
kick start to get her out of business.

------
orlick
Are you pissed because you know that this woman has the contacts and industry
experience to execute on the idea better then you?

A presentation and an hour talk surely hasn't given her much of an advantage.
Go off and build your idea into a successful company. The day after it hits
Techcrunch you'll have 50 competitors anyway.

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brianmckenzie
So she's outsourced the development and is spamming blogs to get
registrations. Doesn't sound like too formidable a competitor to me. If you
can code, you can develop your app and launch in less than than the time she's
wasting trying to communicate with Indian developers in the middle of the
night. Her industry connections won't matter so much if you launch a better
product first.

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cwilbur
Ideas are easy. Execution matters.

You can either do the idea better than she does, or you can start working on
another idea. Given that she's outsourcing the development, either one should
be feasible.

Suing over ideas is just a waste of effort; the only people who come out ahead
in the end are the lawyers.

------
juwo
Under US law, it is first to invent, not first to file. Read David Pressman's
book on Patent It Yourself.

The fact that you emailed her the presentation, IF any ideas are patentable,
is proof enough.

This also proves those wrong who say that "Ideas are worthless".

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dpapathanasiou
Leverage the 53,651 meme to your advantage: contact all the Web 2.0 startup
sites (Techcrunch, GigaOm, Webware, etc.) and tell them that her service is a
rip-off of your idea.

~~~
AF
If the original poster has his service out when he does this, it could end up
being both very bad PR for her and very good PR for him.

In fact, her ripping off his idea could end up being better publicity than he
would've gotten anywhere else.

~~~
create_account
Future investors _hate_ the idea of IP conflict like this.

If the accusation is public knowledge, she'll have a difficult time raising a
second round.

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theoutlander
What are your options ... you can launch something better? Unless you have a
patent, there is no point trying to talk to her .... What is your background
and what is this idea? I would like to evaluate it better ...

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drudru
2 options

1\. launch now 2\. start a blog about the event

nice-side-effect: get the rest of the world tuned into the idea and create a
ton of competition in the space.

------
Shepherd
In order to stealyour idea you first must have owned it. Thing is, ideas
cannot be owned, patnents (processes) can. In conclusion, no one stole a thing
from you.

~~~
ralph
Process patents won't help if someone who is in a sane country where such daft
ideas aren't countenanced wants to copy the idea.

------
dawie
But pissedoff you stole your idea from Reddit/Myspace

------
zaidf
If your idea was so simple that a friend could steal AND execute as YOU
envisioned, your friend isn't he problem--your idea is.

~~~
natrius
Lots of people say that, but I don't think it's true. Just because an idea is
simple doesn't mean it's a bad or unprofitable idea.

MySpace was a really simple idea, most of which had been done before, just not
all on the same site. The reason they were successful wasn't because of the
strength of the idea, it was because they got their site out there when the
only real competition was Friendster, and since their site relies on network
effects for much of its usefulness, it has been difficult for others with the
same idea to be successful.

She screwed you over, but I doubt there's much you can do about it except try
to beat her. Also, people who do things like that should have to pay with
their reputation, but if your idea is too obvious, people will just think
you're lame when you tell the story.

~~~
zaidf
MySpace succeeded because of great execution. Simple ideas once executed well
become great ideas.OP should forget this and continue concentrating on
releasing a great product.

~~~
natrius
MySpace definitely executed well, but no one has a monopoly on good execution.
In your original comment, you said that if someone else could execute as well
as he could, then there's something wrong with the idea. That's not true.
There's a good chance that the poster is already screwed, because the person
who stole his idea is probably competent. Just because the idea has been
marinating in his head longer doesn't mean that he will be more successful.
The suggestion that the advantage gained from being the person to come up with
the idea in the first place is substantial enough to offset the head start
that the person who stole the idea has isn't firmly based in reality.

With that said, I still think he should try to compete with her if he thinks
the idea is worthwhile, but he should definitely reevaluate whether or not
it's worth it to leave his job/school to do it full time. At this point,
anything less than full time isn't going to accomplish anything.

~~~
zaidf
Simple: has that woman built the product as well as the OP planned; has she
achieved/executed the marketing plans as well as he is planning to? I want to
bet the answer to both questions is "no" in which case at this point it is a
probably a waste of his time to even think of her.

Back in '01 when my uncle was doing his startup, couple months before his
site's launch we ran across a site that was VERY similar to what he was
building. And here was a site that looked like it had been born out of my
uncle's business plan. Few months later that site would fold--and we're still
in business today.

Better question is HOW well is she doing what you planned to do.

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Mistone
first off, just wanted to say that this sucks, and you have a right to feel
pretty pissed right now.

my first suggestion would be to contact this person directly and discuss what
has transpired.

Other issues aside, there might be an opportunity to partner, especially if
she has funding and you provide the development expertise.

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sharpshoot
how about partnering with your friend, seeing as you are the originator of the
idea. Does he need you to execute upon this idea?

Has he launched yet?

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andreyf
Hm, I have some good advice for you... but I'm not sure about some details,
why don't you e-mail me your presentation so I can work those out? :-D

------
ido
What was the idea?

~~~
BrandonM
Yeah, you might as well tell us all now, right?

~~~
pissedoff
It was a YouTube for documents. :-)

~~~
sbraford
You mean Scribd?

~~~
icky
Seriously.

The thing you should seek now are better friends, and better ideas. ;-)

------
woot
Romans 12:19

------
jason13
not much of a "friend"

