

Ask HN: What's the average salary for a Web Python Developer in California? - cosmorocket

I know it's a question that doesn't have an exact answer. But you will help me if you give an average range. I am being interviewed now for a software company located in California and I want to be more informed about this aspect. Thanks!
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byoung2
Check out <http://www.glassdoor.com>. They have anonymous salaries from
current and former employees, along with actual interview questions and
reviews. Look up the company name there and see what it says. For example, I
looked up DreamWorks in Los Angeles, and there are 10 salaries listed for
software engineer, with a range from $74k-$98k. There are 3 salaries listed
for senior software engineer with a range from $98k-113k. That is valuable
info when negotiating salary, and you get an idea of advancement potential

~~~
tom_b
I had a negotiation completely implode using glassdoor and payscale along with
"insider" info on salaries at a company.

But I had naively given a complete salary history when asked early in the
process. Since I was currently working for less than I had earned in years
(academic/research job), it turned out that their expectation was that I would
leave for 3% to 5% over my current base.

They were pretty perplexed when I refused to consider anything less than my
previous industry base (which was below an offer I had in hand from other
sources and slightly below market rates in my area).

~~~
parfe
I had the same problem. I work for a public university and gave out my salary
in an after-interview meeting with a company's HR rep. She said my asking
salary was obviously too high based on my current salary. They wouldn't offer
me more than +5% because otherwise that would just be an unreasonable jump in
pay. She felt so sure her logic would convince me it was a reasonable offer. I
shrugged her off and said I wouldn't take the job.

I ended up getting offered 33% above my current, but turned the job down as I
felt that HR conversation was a one of many symptoms of a dysfunctional
company. (Print media trying to convert to web based income, but already
abusing their Dev team as if they were a cost sink before the digital products
even launched).

~~~
frak_your_couch
Just curious, why would you tell them your current salary? In salary
negotiations, wouldn't that give the employer a substantial advantage in
bargaining?

I've been asked this before in post-interview negotiation, so evidently this
is somewhat common practice. I always respond with, "I'll tell you that if you
give me a salary breakdown of your engineering positions by experience level."
They always back off at that point.

~~~
parfe
My salary is public information and easily discoverable. I'd rather be the
source of the information than let a nosy HR rep base an offer on my current
salary on the sly. It's not information I can keep secret.

I know what salary I want, so it's not like it matters anyway. Plus their low-
ball offer gave me an insight into how they value their development team. If
they didn't think I was worth what I was asking, fine, don't hire me. But if
they're just looking for budget coders I'm happy to stay where I am. They
already had two outsourced coders. The idea of joining their staff knowing
they undervalue talent and are willing to hire from the 3rd world to replace
me was not tempting.

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djacobs
I've just finished interviews at several Web companies in California,
specifically San Francisco, so I have a good feel for what people are
offering. I can confidently tell you that the going rate is between $80,000
and $100,000 for software engineers who can demonstrate that they will be
valuable to the company, regardless of concrete years of experience.

~~~
jarin
That sounds about right.

I will make a small suggestion to the OP: if you think the interview went
well, try to shoot for something at the higher end or slightly above.

Even if you don't get it, you'll probably still get a good counter-offer, and
if you come from an area with a lower cost of living, you may not realize how
much you might end up needing that extra $20k a year.

~~~
zumbojo
There was an excellent discussion on this same salary negotiation tactic in a
recent episode of "Build and Analyze":

<http://5by5.tv/buildanalyze/19>

(Salary discussion was at some point after discussing VC but before Android
market share.)

~~~
kami8845
36:30

but it's worth listening to the entire thing, very interesting stuff

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py777
$100,000

Please do not listen to anyone who even mentions that the average salary is
below $80,000, which is completely uninformed and basically an insult to the
profession.

~~~
mattdeboard
Citation needed.

I think maybe you're basing your statement on a healthy dose of sampling bias.

~~~
astrodust
Since they stated they're not listening to people who say it's under $100K,
then obviously their sample set was skewed.

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Homunculiheaded
I recently went through a similar process of needing to guess what the range
was for a position. However a much more important question to ask is "What do
you honestly think you're worth?" I believe you'll get that amount.

If you ask for a lot more than you personally think you're worth during
negotiations people will probably read your lack of confidence. If however you
ask for more than the employer originally wanted to pay, but express that
amount in a confident way then you're much more likely to get it. A good
company (ie one you want to work for) isn't going to offer you the job unless
they really think you're the one they want, and they wouldn't lose that for a
few K, unless they feel like you're full of it.

Most importantly though YOU don't want to work for less than you honestly
think you're worth. I once took a small pay cut when I really thought I was
worth much more, the job was interesting but I knew there was a timer on how
long I'd be there. Be honest with yourself and ask for what you need to feel
comfortable with the position.

~~~
mgkimsal
"What you're worth" is _totally_ dependent on the skills you bring with the
needs the company has. Even in something as specialized as web development,
there's huge room for variances.

Couple of points...

Soft skills - can I comfortably discuss a range of topics and ideas with
people at all levels of an org, including their clients? What is it worth for
you as an employer to know you can bring someone in to a meeting who is, not
just presentable, but groks what's going on, says the right things, picks up
what they need to know, and can act on it?

Domain knowledge - even outside of your core org's focus - can be invaluable
when trying to come up with solutions to some problems. If the knowledge is
there with the right problems, there's value created. If not, no value.

A friend works at a company which had some security problems based on some
poor decisions that were made in the web services APIs. Someone with practical
experience - like me - wouldn't have made those decisions. What 'value' do you
place on the tens of thousands of dollars in man hours, customer relations
issues and lost opportunity cost would you put on bringing someone like me in
vs someone else with less experience?

So... "what do you think you're worth?" is _very_ hard to calculate before the
fact, because you usually don't have much insight in to the inner working and
problems. After you're hired, you can generally expect to be on the COL-raises
and mild bonuses - usually computed based on the dept or team's collective
efforts. If you can get some form of profit-sharing negotiated, you may be
better off, but even that is still subject to the company's overall financial
health, and you normally have little positive control over that.

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pingswept
I'll hazard an estimate for Silicon Valley: $60,000 + $3000 per year of
experience +/- 20% if you rule/suck. I'd make the same estimate for people in
most technical fields. I think it's hard to get more precise than that.

~~~
marcomonteiro
This is a very low estimate for Silicon Valley.

~~~
pingswept
What's a better estimate, or how much do you think I'm off by? Why so?

~~~
marcomonteiro
$80-120k based on the salary of numerous people I know and work with here.
Why? High cost of living, competition and market demand I suppose.

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famousactress
It's worth keeping in mind that California is a big place. The difference
between the Bay Area and LA/San Diego isn't completely insignificant when it
comes to hiring practices and salaries. In my experience, years of experience
has more of a bearing on your employment and compensation in the south than it
does in the bay where companies are looking for talented people of just about
any background, and if anything youth can be something of an advantage when
looking for work.

~~~
russell
I've done recent contract work in both SV and LA. I would say SV/SF pays
10-15% higher. In addition the work in SV is much more interesting to me and
probably other HN types than the work in LA. Within the Bay Area the arc from
Berkeley, SF, Palo Alto, San Jose was more interesting than the East
Bay/Contra Costa.

I used CraigsList so there may be a SV vs LA bias in the listings.

~~~
harold
My experience working in both LA and SV backs up the price differential you
raised. I've worked on some really interesting projects in LA though.

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AngeloAnolin
I think you need to take into consideration the type of industry that the
company is going to take you in. A lot (actually most) of the companies would
low-ball their prospective employees, as it looks good in their bottom line
that they are getting these developers for less paltry sums.

If the company hiring you is already an established firm with a good history
in terms of professional's salary, then I would expect that you could go for a
range of 100K - 150K. For startups, it could go as less as 50K and for medium
sized companies, it should be fair to consider an offer from 60K to 90K.

~~~
marcomonteiro
That would make startups drastically uncompetitive.

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imechura
Wow, I am extremely surprised at the low salaries you guys are speaking of. Is
it because of the python language that it is so low? As a java developer at a
so-so company in dallas 6 figures is the starting point for someone with 5+
years of experience.

I honestly don't know how someone could make it in an the Bay Area on 100k
which is really disappointing because I have been wanting to move there and
also have been wanting to make the switch to full time python development.

------
ronnix
Are you an average Python developer?

~~~
cosmorocket
I am asking about the average range to get a general picture of the market
there in the USA. Having that info I will be able to estimate my level
according to the market. Now I see that it's quite a low salary if it's about
$80'000/year. If I work 8/12 hours per day for that money, then I get about
only $30-$40 per hour. Am I right? Thanks.

~~~
maxbrown
IMO you should keep salary/hourly comparisons separate. When you're talking
about how much _per hour_ , it's typically a freelance/contract rate. But that
is going to be much different than what you would make _per hour_ on salary.

For example a freelancer might charge $100-150 per hour. That's like $200-300k
per year on salary (at that rate). But a freelancer at that rate doesn't
actually make that amount, because you have to factor in downtime (they don't
always have work, and they often have to spend time finding work) and they
don't have benefits, etc.

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euroclydon
Depends on what you'll be doing.

If you're automating a money making process that is scalable, the sky's the
limit.

If you're developing from scratch or greatly enhancing a core product, then...
A lot.

If you're doing reporting or back-office cost center type of coding, then
whatever the market values your skills as a commodity.

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aschobel
The market for Python developers is incredibly tight right now.

If you are talented you should be able to get $90-100k+.

We are hiring Python developers at Catch.com, feel free to shoot me an email (
aschobel@catch.com ).

Here is our PyCon MongoDB talk:
[https://catch.com/blog/2011/03/pycon-2011-mongodb-pylons-
at-...](https://catch.com/blog/2011/03/pycon-2011-mongodb-pylons-at-catch-com-
scalable-web-apps-with-python-and-nosql/)

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nsfmc
i feel like there should be some way to calculate this by looking at regional
cost of living and factoring in scarcity of the profession along with some
normalized salary range for the job title, because as mentioned, salary diffs
b/w sf, sd and la are likely to be significant.

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Mz
I suggest you use a site like bestplaces.net and compare what your current
salary buys where you currently live to how much you would need just to stay
even if you moved to where you are job hunting. If you can't get at _at least_
that much, it's a pay cut. (Cali tends to be pretty pricey compared to most
places in the US, so odds are good the cost of living is higher, not lower,
than where you currently live.) Then tack on a pay raise and compare to what
some folks here have said and blah blah blah. I am acquainted (via internet)
with someone who turned down a job in Cali because it would have been a de
facto pay cut for him in spite of the juicy-sounding number they named.

Best of luck.

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SnoopDougieDoug
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