

JWZ and the Palm App Catalog, Part II - mosburger
http://jwz.livejournal.com/1100218.html

======
jmtulloss
I think JWZ has some of the details wrong. The Palm app catalog may resemble
the Apple app store. This is not a bad thing. This is a repository of apps
that are easy to find and install from the device itself, and it carries a
certain seal of approval from Palm/Apple. There should be quality requirements
for this distribution channel.

However, there is no "2nd citizen" app store. What Palm is doing is providing
a link to your app that can be posted anywhere that will do exactly what JWZ
wants: install the app on your phone when clicked. There is no charge for this
link, and the app is not reviewed. Palm is simply hosting the app for you AND
providing over-the-air updates for your app. What you don't get is the on-
device distribution channel.

(Disclaimer: I work at Palm, but am not in developer relations. These are my
opinions; I'm not privy to information on this topic outside of what you fine
folks have.)

~~~
tptacek
This point was made on his LJ, and he responded:

 _That's just semantics. Palm is still in control of it. It is their catalog,
and the app is surely hosted on their servers._

 _So maybe the user-facing interface for getting at apps is a web page instead
of a "store" application that runs on the device. That's just an
implementation detail. Palm is still mediating my interaction with my
customers._

~~~
jmtulloss
I love the "that's just semantics" argument. Semantics have connotations, and
his were far from the truth. The "just an implementation detail" is another
favorite. The differences between good programs and bad programs that do the
same thing are, largely, implementation details.

It's great that people want to discuss the upsides and downsides of this
approach, but the dismissive language and outright anger in the original post
makes JWZ's argument weaker.

------
bhousel
I really think his interpretation on the "second citizen" app catalog is
completely wrong. I've read the palm release and it doesn't say that at all..

JWZ had a very valid point the first time around, and he got everyone's
attention, deservedly so. But in Part II he comes across as being whiny and
rude, even misrepresenting the Palm press release.

Maybe he's just angry and needs to cool down?

~~~
barrkel
No, he's right. If Palm has a way to deny a developer the means to let his
users install his (open source) application, they are still the middleman.
That's the kernel of his objection, and that's still there.

------
Maciek416
One day we're going to look at these dark days of app approval processes,
registration fees, application fees, fragmented platforms, crazy APIs and
laugh. Or cry.

What an awkward phase.

I for one hope for a decent cross-platform browser API that lets me access
mobile phone functions (database / GPS / camera) in js and just be done with
all this drama.

~~~
hackoder
I agree with you. Its sad that we have taken all this stuff as being "normal".
From start ($99 fee) to finish (30% of sales), they are ripping developers
off. They should be paying developers to build apps that are resulting in more
and more sales of these phones.

~~~
GHFigs
_From start ($99 fee) to finish (30% of sales), they are ripping developers
off._

That's very subjective. It's apparent that thousands of developers feel that
what they get in return is worth the price. If they don't like the price of
goods and services, they can choose not to buy them. They are not on the whole
being deprived of anything that is owed to them. It's accepted as "normal"
because it's the way commerce works everywhere, and because these are very
established practices in fields other than desktop software.

 _They should be paying developers_

They are! Why do you think developers are choosing to develop for these
platforms? Where do you think the other 70% goes?

------
ErrantX
I agree; what he wants is a stellar idea and how it should work for definite.

The problem is twofold.

Firstly Apple. They achieved unbelievable lockin (even accounting for
jailbreaking) with the App Store and are certainly raking in a fortune with
it. Im not surprised Palm want a portion of the pie.

Secondly; I bet you the Pre is "sold" at a loss. Because Palm looked at the
App Store and thought "hey that is a limitless pot of money, lets do it!". Im
sure the Iphone/Ipod Touch is sold for the same sort of "loss" - the profit is
from tertiary services (this is a fairly standard model, right).

We already have a dangerous simile for this sort of loss leader system: it's
called printed news media. They make money off of advertising revenue and that
is falling apart as things evolve.

There will be a revolution in phone software at some point; a time when phone
providers finally realise they should open up their phones to other OS's the
same way computers are. When that happens these companies are fucked; and I
dont think it can be too far away. The number of disgruntled App store devs is
growing, Android is increasing in popularity and gaining market traction
(though I dont rate any of the production phones yet) and it looks like Palm
devs will be joining the pool. That is a dangerous group of people :D

~~~
bhousel
What he wants is basically what Palm is giving him, except for one point..

The device won't install apps directly off the developer's website - it will
only install apps either through the actual app catalog, or through a free
link that somehow goes through Palm. However they said that they would provide
these links for any app, even without any formal review process. Really, this
is a good thing.

Why? Because Palm needs to be able to yank an app if it turns out to be
malicious. They are doing this to protect their platform, and it's a
reasonable security measure.

~~~
eb
That's ridiculous.

Why should I let Palm decide what I can install on _my_ phone? Android,
Windows Mobile and PalmOS users have been doing fine with having the option of
installing their own software.

~~~
bhousel
You still can install whatever you want on the phone. You just need to jump
through a few (very minor) hoops to enable developer mode.

The Palm Pre has a thriving homebrew community of hackers who have done
exactly this, and have written over 250 apps that don't go through the
standard Palm app store and can be installed just by a normal download link.

See: <http://www.precentral.net/homebrew-apps>

Palm devs have even been following the homebrew community closely and invited
many of the developers there to offer their apps through the official app
store as well as through the homebrew scene.

------
protomyth
So, $99 fee and $50 per app for the "real" app store. I wonder how this is
going to effect the developer's decision on what pricing should be and how
feature filled the application will be?

~~~
leertaylor
The $99 fee is basically the same as what it costs to become a developer for
the iPhone. The $50 fee for being listed in the official App Catalog is
different, and feels like a good alternative to me since they also have the
free distribution option. This should help avoid the App Catalog getting over-
crowded with a ton of really poor cheap/free apps, and hopefully means the App
Catalog will attract developers producing the higher quality applications.

~~~
protomyth
I think you are right on the effect. I bet a developer who hands over $50 will
be a lot more uptight in delayed deployment of that app.

My main problem with the iTunes App Store from a customer point of view is I
feel like I have tunnel vision and can't really see the app and comments. I
wish I had something like the Amazon shopping experience.

------
jsz0
Has this gentleman addressed why he's developing for the Pre in the first
place? It seems like Android would be a much better fit for him. There are
more Android handsets out there, multiple models with many more on the way,
and the OS has a very clear future ahead of it. It feels like some self
imposed torture on his part. Both Palm and Apple make their terms pretty clear
-- there's no bait & switch here from what I can tell.

~~~
throw_away
He doesn't trust google & won't create a google account. I'm not an android
user, but I believe that this precludes a lot of the functionality on an
android phone. Last week he was looking for an RSS reader replacement, but
wouldn't consider google reader.

~~~
utexaspunk
Sounds a little paranoid, to me. He could create a throwaway google account
and buy a dev phone, or buy one of the many non-google-branded Android phones
either already on the market or coming out this quarter, which can be used
without a google account. Once you've got the phone, there's absolutely no
requirement that you use a google account whatsoever. The only functionality
which requires it are the google apps (gmail, maps, etc, and using the
market). There's even a 3rd-party app market already out there
(<http://slideme.org/>)

I don't see how letting google knowing who he is -especially when they
probably ALREADY know- is any worse than letting Palm know who he is. For him
to tear his hair out over Palm's bullshit, especially when in all likelihood
Palm's will probably lose in the end, seems like a futile and masochistic
exercise.

