
Tesla Model S battery reignited twice after Florida crash - oedmarap
https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-ntsb-tesla-fatal-crash-report-model-s-battery-reignited-twice-after-florida-crash/
======
Latteland
Just like you can get a patent on anything by adding "with a computer" you can
get traction for any news story by adding "in a tesla" to it. A fire in any
car would be horrifying, but it's not really that newsworthy. Gas cars catch
on fire all the time.

Dubai - car catches on fire twice!

[https://www.thenational.ae/uae/transport/car-catches-fire-
tw...](https://www.thenational.ae/uae/transport/car-catches-fire-twice-at-
dubai-petrol-station-1.95799)

Didn't quite make the us news. Cars catch on fire at amusement park, Teslas
apparently not involved [http://abc11.com/several-cars-catch-fire-in-parking-
lot-of-c...](http://abc11.com/several-cars-catch-fire-in-parking-lot-of-
carowinds-/3638472/)

~~~
joshlegs
Ok, so former reporter here.

There are several 'criteria for newsworthiness'. One of them is novelty.
Another is general public interest. And there is substantial general public
interest in Tesla as a whole, since it is doing new things. Additionally, many
of the things Tesla is trying is also novel. So that is two things right off
the bat that make basically anything that happens there newsworthy to some
degree.

I get that people like to say "oh the media is just reporting on this failure
because it's Tesla and they want them to fail," but to hold that view is to
misunderstand the nature of news in general. Pieces like this aren't
inherently "anti-Tesla", (which is what I am admittedly inferring you're
getting at with your comment). But the fact that this is a new thing that
humankind is experimenting with makes it newsworthy, and that includes its
failures and successes.

I also admittedly didn't read the article yet :)

~~~
eganist
This is the clickbait approach to journalism.

Investigative and traditional news journalism will still focus on unusual
deltas or events — and in this case, those deltas should be in Tesla's favor.
A good example of newsworthiness might be if firefighters failed to put out a
battery fire or if the NTSB (edited from NHTSA) focused on a particular
incident for some reason, e.g. to learn and see how this event is being
handled versus others.

"Tesla on fire" isn't newsworthy.

"NTSB monitoring emergency response to Tesla car fire" probably is. (edited
from NHTSA. Source release: [https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-
releases/Pages/NR20180509.as...](https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-
releases/Pages/NR20180509.aspx))

"Tesla batteries catch on fire [more or less] frequently than gas cars" is
newsworthy. It may even be worthy of further investigation in either event.

"Tesla on fire" isn't newsworthy.

~~~
danso
Then would you call the NTSB investigation a "clickbait" investigation? They
are the ones who initiated the investigation that is being reported on right
now.

How unusual/newsworthy is a NTSB investigation? You can look at their list of
major highway investigations right here:

[https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/All-
Investigations...](https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/All-
Investigations.aspx?office=Highway)

There are about 50 ongoing investigations since 2016. Of those, Tesla is the
subject of 4 of them:

[https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/pages/HWY18FH004.aspx](https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/pages/HWY18FH004.aspx)

[https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/pages/HWY18FH011.aspx](https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/pages/HWY18FH011.aspx)

[https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/pages/HWY18FH013.aspx](https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/pages/HWY18FH013.aspx)

[https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/pages/HWY17FH013.aspx](https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/pages/HWY17FH013.aspx)

By my informal count, Tesla seems to have the most NTSB investigations of any
individual automaker right now, given that many of the NTSB highway
investigations involve bus and train accidents.

~~~
Ironchefpython
Honestly, I would expect the NTSB to investigate any kind of accident
involving rare or new technology. I'd expect to see them investigate a higher
percentage of accidents involving electric vehicles and self-driving vehicles
until those technologies are safe enough and proven enough that you get
diminishing returns from the investigations.

~~~
digikata
Tesla probably also has one of the higher counts of deployed electric vehicles
out there too, so the absolute number of units involved in anything unusual
should be expected to be high too. The interesting context would be relative
numbers to number of units and miles travelled for both regular vehicles as
well as other makers electrics.

------
Shivetya
A Chevrolet Volt battery from a car used in crash testing caught fire while in
storage [1]

I know many are quick to dismiss battery fires "because petrol cars do it all
the time" but that is not the issue. One key difference is a lithium battery
fire produces toxic gases that are more dangerous [2] which are more dangerous
to bystanders and first responders.

A key reason these stories are noteworthy is because the technology is new and
exciting. Plus many don't associate fires with batteries though Hollywood will
likely provide an abundance of such excitement. So expect more stories of
battery fires, especially surrounding AP accidents which are even more
noteworthy but don't dismiss the issue because of petrol cars

Now in that previously mentioned Volt fire there is mentioning of powering
down a battery as one solution. Is that possible with the Tesla system,
actually is that truly a solution? I suppose the real solution is special
holding areas created to store battery packs and cars from wrecks. Probably
will require manufacturer's to take ownership of them

[1] [https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-
electric/a11865...](https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-
electric/a11865/the-straight-story-on-the-chevy-volt-battery-fire-6601217/)

[2]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5577247/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5577247/)

------
S_A_P
I would say that the fact this battery reignited is barely news. Its a well
known "feature" of lithium batteries. Petrol is at least as dangerous from the
perspective of a fire hazard. Diesel is probably the least likely to
spontaneously combust.

~~~
stefan_
They clean up petrol and other leaked fluids after car crashes, what is the
correct procedure to "disarm" a punctured lithium ion battery?

~~~
S_A_P
I agree with you 100%- there should be a protocol for handling this situation.
I have know idea what that should be, but seems like there needs to be a way
to encapsulate the battery with an insulator and prevent any further
shorts/fires.

~~~
blattimwind
Putting the car in a large, fire-proof steel container (specialty engineering,
they exist) for a few weeks (so you are at least somewhat sure it won't start
catching fire RFN). Then dismantling the battery by hand, inspecting each cell
individually.

You can't really put anything around it (like a nitrogen atmosphere) that
prevents fires, because the oxygen is already in there in the cathode. And so
is the energy to ignite it.

------
Uberphallus
> The report notes that Fort Lauderdale Fire and Rescue Department found the
> Tesla "fully engulfed in flames" at the crash scene and extinguished it with
> 200 to 300 gallons of water and foam.

Water + lithium fire, smart. I'm surprised it was put out successfully to
begin with. Probably it died on its own, and got restarted with the water.

~~~
ot
It's literally what Tesla recommends:

> USE WATER TO FIGHT A HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERY FIRE. If the battery catches fire,
> is exposed to high heat, or is generating heat or gases, use large amounts
> of water to cool the battery. It can take approximately 3,000 gallons of
> water, applied directly to the battery, to fully extinguish and cool down a
> battery fire; always establish or request an additional water supply. If
> water is not immediately available, use dry chemicals, CO2, foam, or another
> typical fire-extinguishing agent to fight the fire until water is available.

[https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Mod...](https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Model_S_Emergency_Response_Guide_en.pdf)

~~~
stephengillie
That much water is probably enough to react with all exposed lithium, while
removing enough heat to prevent damage to other batteries or battery cases.

------
sverige
It seems from TFA that the speed limiter had been set to 85 mph, yet the data
recorder showed the car traveling at 116 mph three seconds before the crash.
Did the speed limiter fail too?

~~~
btilly
The father claims that he set his son's car to have a speed limiter. However
we have no reason to believe that the son didn't try to remove the limiter.
Given the son's previous behavior, there is every reason to believe that the
son would have noticed the limiter and tried to turn it off.

------
ebikelaw
It’s amazing that we allow a car to be sold that can go this fast. They
bothered to pass a law limiting electric bicycles to 28 MPH but my car will go
155. Why?

~~~
burger_moon
Your point doesn't make sense. There's speed limits for cars too. My ebike
does 45mph doesn't mean I'm allowed to go that fast.

~~~
ebikelaw
If you own an e-bike that can exceed 28 MPH then it is unlawful in most
jurisdictions to operate it on any bike lane or path, and you need a
motorcycle license to operate it on a road. The equivalent law for cars would
be if your car can exceed 45 MPH you’re not allowed to drive it in a school
zone.

------
londons_explore
The main cause of this accident seems to be doing 116 mph in a 30 mph speed
limit zone...

I can't really blame the design of the car for the fatalities in that case...

The secondary fire isn't really preventable either - electric cars, due to
their nature, contain batteries, and when those batteries are ripped apart in
an accident, they might short circuit and catch fire. Recorvery crews need to
know this, and leave the car somewhere it won't matter if it re-ignites.

------
izzydata
I'd be more surprised to learn they were able to put out a lithium battery
fire before it completely burnt up.

~~~
yardie
Fire needs heat, fuel, and oxygen. Take away just one of those and no more
fire.

Water has normally been used to absorb heat, and takes some oxygen away. But
electrical fires you need something else like CO2, powder, or halon.

~~~
blattimwind
Lithium ion battery fires bring their own oxygen.

------
dsfyu404ed
Batteries provide oxygen, fuel and a way to get that fuel hot enough to ignite
(electrical energy) in close proximity. The higher the energy density the
easier they will light up and the harder it is to put them out. Unless there's
a fundamental breakthrough that allows us to use different materials to store
electrical energy this is always going to happen from time to time.

Only the most die-hard of fanboys ever claimed that having a bunch of lithium
batteries on the floor of your vehicle was an improvement in safety over
liquid fuels.

All forms of energy storage are going to have the potential to destroy things
by releasing that energy. The big difference between a bomb and energy
suitable for conversion into mechanical power is time.

------
tonyquart
Talking about these self-driving cars, I think there are still so many aspects
that need to be fixed by the automakers. Until then, these cars should not be
allowed to be operated on public roads. I have read an article that talks
about this matter at [https://www.lemberglaw.com/self-driving-autonomous-car-
accid...](https://www.lemberglaw.com/self-driving-autonomous-car-accident-
injury-lawyers-attorneys/). Hopefully the automakers will think seriously
about this.

------
runako
> his father had installed speed-control technology on his son's Model S to
> limit its maximum speed to 85mph

Is there anywhere near Mountain View where it's legal to drive even 75mph, let
alone 85mph?

~~~
kemiller
Legal or not, 85 is the natural flow of traffic on Silicon Valley freeways
when they're not congested.

~~~
shaftway
There are plenty of times I've been on 280 and been uncomfortable doing 85;
traffic was flowing at ~100 and I felt like an obstruction.

------
hamitron
> The Model S, which was being driven by Barrett Riley, was traveling at
> 116mph three seconds before the collision

What do you expect to happen when a lithium ion battery hits a wall at high
speeds?

------
nobleach
116 mph in a 30 mph zone. Just wow.....

------
africasiaeuro
Watch: Lithum is highly toxic. Total environmentally hazardous. How many more?
Li Ion batteries = weak point, once ignited, won't stop burning:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYKTTCNUV3o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYKTTCNUV3o)

------
rm_-rf_slash
If every gasoline-powered automobile fire got the same coverage as every Tesla
fire, there wouldn’t be space for anything else.

~~~
detaro
Good thing then that it's not about "car caught on fire", but more specific
than that.

