
Deep Work and the 30-Hour Method for Learning a New Skill (2018) - jayliew
https://azeria-labs.com/the-importance-of-deep-work-the-30-hour-method-for-learning-a-new-skill/
======
PragmaticPulp
It's easy to dismiss "Deep Work" articles for their use of buzzwords and pop-
psychology, but this sort of structured language really does help drive the
point home for some people.

The core concept of Deep Work isn't really controversial. Everyone knows that
hard problems require focus, but that doesn't seem to stop people from
surrounding themselves with notifications and distractions. It also doesn't
stop many companies from burying their employees under a deluge of Slack
notifications and must-respond-immediately e-mail expectations.

Once you start putting a name on it (It's not focus, it's "Deep Work (TM)"!)
it becomes an easier sell to many (though not all) of the people who need to
hear it. Attaching an explanation, a methodology, or a movement to something
really does seem to amplify the importance.

It's the same effect that makes "Dopamine fasting" more poignant than
suggesting that people take a day off of watching TV, checking their phones
every 10 minutes, and browsing time-waster websites all throughout the day.
They're the same thing in concept, but once you attach a catchy name and/or a
semi-scientific explanation to something, many people start taking it more
seriously.

In my time mentoring junior devs, one of the biggest predictors of future
success was a person's ability to sit down, focus, and get work done. Many
college grads are coming from an environment where their classes are neatly
divided into 1-hour classes spread throughout the day. They're pulled in many
directions by their phones, social engagements, activities, homework, and
classes. They get in the habit of only focusing for 1-2 hours at most before
going on to the next thing. Once they graduate and have to sit in one place
and work on one thing for 8 hours a day, many of them struggle. If I try to
lecture them on the importance of sustained focus and minimizing distractions,
I sound like an out of touch old guy. If I instead say "Hey, we practice Deep
Work here. Let me get you a copy of a Deep Work book so you can join us" then
they're on board.

So you may not like the branding. You may not like seeing the same topic
rehashed over and over again. But practically speaking, I don't care how it's
accomplished. As long as it gets more people to take sustained focus seriously
(both employees and managers alike) then I'm all for it.

~~~
crdrost
I like this idea of phrasing it as branding.

In my experience nobody sits in one place and works on one thing for 8 hours a
day. I am tempted to say that it's not only rare but it's undesirable.

I can work for approximately 5 hours straight without needing any sort of
break; but part of becoming a more senior developer was to realize that this
is actually a really bad thing for me. The “sweet spot” for me appears to be
either 1.5 or 2 hours long. If I have some urgency I will literally shut down
my laptop and move to a coffee shop or some other physical context and spend
at least 15 minutes taking in the new ambiance before opening up the laptop
and resuming a separate 2-hour burst of focused work.

The reason is basically that the flow state is good for one very important
parameter that we might call ‘grit,’ the actual overcoming of pain and moving
a project to completion... but it fails of course at a whole range of
metacognitive processes which I might imperfectly class along at least three
separate axes as... well, the words are not great but ‘creativity’ and
‘organization’ and ’empathy’ work. Flow states are really good for when you
know what needs to be done and how to do it because your project is well-
organized. They can be poor for stepping back and thinking “is this really the
best way to satisfy that person’s needs?” and for stepping back and thinking
“is there some more powerful idea I could leverage here which would make all
of these sorts of problems just go away, even if it is a little strange given
how the system exists right now?” and for simply asking “how can I clean
things up now to make my life easier in the future?”. Even if you have
individuals who by their personalities simply exude grit and radiate it for
everyone else, which is an absolute treasure to have, you may want to balance
them out with people who have a sort of moralistic imperative of “this is how
a system like this _should be_ built.” I don’t want to work with just
hackers—but with hackers, engineers, dreamers, and evangelists—on my dev team.
Either as separate people or as separate hats which people take on over the
course of the day.

~~~
buffet_overflow
>They can be poor for stepping back and thinking “is this really the best way
to satisfy that person’s needs?”

This is something I stumbled onto recently. I've been hellbent on making sure
I had no distractions and could hit that 5 hour flow state, only to find
smaller chunks gave me more points to reflect on the state of the work and
redirect it more effectively.

Thanks for capturing it into words.

------
Buttons840
I read this article years ago and have logged about 1,800 hours using this
system.

Like many, when it comes to personal projects, I want to accomplish something
and enjoy myself. The problem is that those are often at odds with each other:
accomplishing something worthwhile requires hard work that isn't always
enjoyable.

I've modified the system slightly to a "20-Hour Method" but the idea is the
same.

I decide on something I would like to learn or work on and focus on it for 20
hours. Remarkably, I felt the weight of this decision for the first time, I
knew my decision would direct a significant amount of time and effort. I never
felt this before, because I knew my decisions would only last until the first
small obstacle.

This system is how I balance the trade-off between doing what I enjoy and
pushing through the hard times. It's not a motivational trick to me. It is the
objective way I have decided to balance the trade-off between hard work and
constant enjoyment. With few exceptions, I know that the only way out is
through, so I do the hard work, and when 20-Hours rolls around, I often find I
do want to continue, even though I hated some parts along the way.

~~~
bigwavedave
There was a really good Ted Talk to this effect called "The First Twenty
Hours"!

link: [https://youtu.be/5MgBikgcWnY](https://youtu.be/5MgBikgcWnY)

------
vp8989
The sad thing is that the way the software industry is structured, it creates
environments where juniors are doing the deep work and people with more
experience are doing shallow logistical work.

We have it totally backwards.

~~~
dtauzell
A lot of shallow logistic work requires domain knowledge the juniors don’t
have.

Maybe pairing would help here as a way to get more of this knowledge
transferred more quickly so the shallow work can be spread out?

~~~
fizixer
A lot of deep work requires domain knowledge the juniors don't have.

------
magneticnorth
Interesting that this is currently #1 on HN, but (as of right now) 100% of the
comments are dismissive & derogatory.

How does this happen? Is it just easier to leave a negative comment than to
say something meaningful if you enjoyed the article?

~~~
burkaman
Positive comments that don't "add any value" are heavily discouraged on HN.
Unless you have some deep expertise or experience that you can use to expand
on the article, it's usually best to not comment.

Negative comments that don't add value are not viewed the same way for some
reason.

~~~
Abishek_Muthian
On the other hand I view a comment after down-vote with the reason, crucial
for constructive criticism.

~~~
magneticnorth
That makes sense. Downvotes here seem to be more meaningful than in most other
forums.

------
commandlinefan
"The importance of deep work" seems so fundamental that you'd think everybody
would be aware of it by now - yet open offices are nearly universal (or at
least were before this corona virus panic started). Is it that the people
making the decisions genuinely don't understand "deep work", or that they
think everybody can do their "deep work" for four years in college and be done
with deep work for the rest of their lives?

~~~
trentnix
Open office plans were a reaction to teams that didn't communicate effectively
(or at all). The idea was that putting everyone in the same area encouraged
communication and cohesion. It also allowed for spaces that were chic and
'creative', because somehow creativity is impossible in offices that have the
aesthetic appeal of a solitary confinement cell.

Honestly, I believe most of the value derived from open office plans is that
it is harder to fake work and fake productivity. Now, everything that people
were doing is out in the open and provides some measure of accountability.
Maybe I'm being a bit too cynical, but I think that's a big contributor as to
why open office environments are common.

And partially yes, it's because some people making the decisions don't
understand the value of 'deep work' and the environments that encourage it.

~~~
sokoloff
While I'm sure there were elements of communications and observation in the
widespread move towards open plan offices, I think it's very likely that real
estate costs were at least an equally significant driver.

I had the pleasure to work in a genuine had-a-door office environment from
1997 through 2002. It was amazing for focus, productivity, and I found our
employee communications to be generally excellent as well. I'm sure it was
also stratospherically expensive on a per-dev basis, but probably still a
rounding error relative to our compensation.

I hate open-plan offices. Deeply. I also see my overall "building occupancy
charges" every month and am acutely aware of the pressures to be frugal. (I
think real-estate is the wrong place to do it, but I understand the bean-
counting view which is very apparent and productivity of expensive employees
is not readily apparent [in a dollars/cents way].)

------
futureproofd
Ah, I thought we were just about due for a revisit on the importance of Deep
Work. I'll take this an an opportunity to paste one of the highlights from the
book I found to be interesting:

"As the journalist Daniel Coyle surveys in his 2009 book, The Talent Code ,
these scientists increasingly believe the answer includes myelin—a layer of
fatty tissue that grows around neurons, acting like an insulator that allows
the cells to fire faster and cleaner. To understand the role of myelin in
improvement, keep in mind that skills, be they intellectual or physical,
eventually reduce down to brain circuits. This new science of performance
argues that you get better at a skill as you develop more myelin around the
relevant neurons, allowing the corresponding circuit to fire more effortlessly
and effectively. To be great at something is to be well myelinated. This
understanding is important because it provides a neurological foundation for
why deliberate practice works. By focusing intensely on a specific skill,
you’re forcing the specific relevant circuit to fire, again and again, in
isolation. This repetitive use of a specific circuit triggers cells called
oligodendrocytes to begin wrapping layers of myelin around the neurons in the
circuits—effectively..."

This seems to be supportive to the argument for deep work. Happy myelination,
everyone.

~~~
circlefavshape
Science-y explanations like this, especially anything involving brain
structure or imaging, totally put me off. Almost always they're simply plucked
from the research by someone who has no deep knowledge of the subject in order
to provide an argument from authority.

------
reese_john
Past:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17163251](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17163251)

~~~
dkersten
Great discussion there, thanks for linking!

------
compumike
Almost by definition, the modern workplace* has zero tolerance for deep work.

Has anyone made their workplace compatible with deep work?

* by which I mean notifications, Slack, Zoom, email, meetings, open offices, sprints, etc.

------
ChrisMarshallNY
It's a nice site, and she does seem to be quite qualified. I applaud her drive
to "give back."

That said, I have found that I don't really need this, myself. That's mostly
because I'm a bit "on the spectrum," and tend to drop into what I call my
"fugue state." When I am in this state, I can churn out a _vast_ amount of
really good code, with almost no working documentation, as I can keep a fairly
complex system in my head, applying adjustments as I meet friction. In fact,
the most common reaction I get from people is "You didn't write that!". It's
very draining. I usually come out of the state feeling exhausted and,
sometimes, sick (I once puked my guts out, after spending about 10 hours,
working on a painting). I used to have an employee that was a lot more
"spectrumish" than I am, and he easily knocked my best efforts into a cocked
hat. His work was stunning. I suspect that it still is.

But that kind of thing is very individual, and can't be taught. I have written
a great deal about my personal process, but I feel it is more expository, as
opposed to educational
([https://medium.com/chrismarshallny](https://medium.com/chrismarshallny)). I
am quite aware that I am nowhere near the "top of the heap," and that there
are prodigies out there that, on a bad day, can blow away my best.

~~~
have_faith
Sounds very similar to Hyperfocus[1] from the AD(H)D world which is something
I became very interested in for a while. There are certain subjects that can
sustain a state of hyperfocus for me and certain subjects that make me
question if I'd had enough sleep. On the surface this sounds a bit psuedo-
sciency as if asked anyone would say "yeah I also have things that interest me
or don't..." but there's certainly something extra going on when you
experience it first hand.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfocus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfocus)

~~~
mrkstu
My main problem is guiding hyperfocus to the thing that needs to get done
_right now_.

I have a weird anxiety avoidance that makes me willing to do almost anything,
including very hard things, if it isn't the thing that is necessary. I can
hyperfocus on just about anything else.

I've slowly learned to redirect back to the necessary thing, but its been a
decades long path to overcome the tendency.

~~~
mjayhn
Meditation helped me out with my ADHD way, way more than I expected. It took
about a month of daily 10-20 minute practice but it gave me this control over
my racing thoughts and shiny distractions that felt completely foreign to me.
Like oh, I do have this willpower muscle I just haven't been using it much.

I'm speaking in past tense because since covid I haven't meditated and my mind
has become a racing mess. If you can will yourself into doing it I'd highly
recommend trying it. You can always stop if you don't see a benefit.

------
vladletter
I'm tired of those self improvement hack 2 cents worth. Do what you love
people, just focus on life and don't use all the time process. Process is made
for stupid repetitive task, not learning.

This society is so individualist, that we talk only about the self.

~~~
jyriand
Maybe that was possible 50-100 years ago when you were not living in a global
village where everyone around the world can come and knock on your door and
demand your attention. Nowadays we need to constantly remind ourselves that we
need to find time for uninterrupted focus. And these articles about deep work
are just that for me, reminders.

------
audiometry
These articles are derivatives of derivatives. They become very tedious and
repetitive.

~~~
cellularmitosis
A substance-less complaint can become both helpful and a more honest critique
simply by including a link to something less derivative.

~~~
audiometry
[https://mrbartonmaths.com/resourcesnew/8.%20Research/Explici...](https://mrbartonmaths.com/resourcesnew/8.%20Research/Explicit%20Instruction/Deliberate%20Practice.PDF)
There you go... the source from which Malcolm Gladwell and thousands of his
imitators have pulled.

Here’s another for those writing the “get things done” derivative.

[https://interruptions.net/literature/Wicklund-
BASP81.pdf](https://interruptions.net/literature/Wicklund-BASP81.pdf)

Ad nauseum

------
ofou
How to achieve a flow state easily:

0\. Exercise (+5min HIIT)

1\. Turn-off distractors (ex. notifications, dumbphone, etc.)

2\. Breathe & drink a glass of water

3\. Put a timer with your effort (Forget pomodoro!)

4\. Put the tab your working on

5\. Press F11

6\. Start working

7\. GOTO step 2. IF sleepy or tired add step 0.

------
ipnon
Would it be optimal for my self-development to take a job I can perform
entirely with shallow work if I only have 4 hours of deep work available per
day and no responsibilities outside of my job? Assume I spend my time after my
job is finished to develop myself. It may be selfishly optimal to choose the
least challenging jobs.

------
llaolleh
I'm so tired of these articles that rehash the same idea over and over. Feel
like life is too short to setup some complicated discipline system to force
yourself to chug something down that you hate.

You either enjoy doing it or you don't. Focus on deriving joy out of the
process and not the end result.

~~~
Buttons840
What's the greatest accomplishment you're aware of that didn't require
"chugging down" some hard work that the person hated?

~~~
llaolleh
Fair point. All great accomplishments require some grunt work. This leads one
to wonder whether or not people who work crazy hours have a high tolerance for
bs and pain or enjoy some of the hard work and perseverance anyways. I believe
the latter.

Most of the successful people I know tend to enjoy the process and don't seem
to be extremely occupied with results.

But based on the post, I felt that if you want to learn a skill you should
have some fun or be interested enough in learning. Setting four hours blocks
with specific goals don't help. I believe that it's not that people have
problems entering deep work that's causing people not to sit down and read
through repositories, but they don't care enough, or enjoy the process of
learning that's preventing them from making significant progress.

------
amoser84
I've found the Clockwise chrome extension to be useful in achieving the
bimodal method mentioned here - without something automatically blocking time
on my calendar to reserve it for Deep Work, my teammates may book over that
time in my calendar.

------
aaisola
How do you balance the want/willingness to do deep work with the external
pressures of the tech world that result in new fires emerging constantly?

~~~
jyriand
Doing deep work in early mornings should fix your problem. Usually the fires
start after the managers/boss/teammates arrive in the office. In the morning
you just can ignore everything because no one is expecting you to be
available.

------
daffy
I started on Newport's book a few years ago but stopped because I hated his
writing style.

------
known
20+ year old is a wage slave. 30+ year old is an employee. 40+ year old is the
partner [https://archive.vn/K8DpI](https://archive.vn/K8DpI)

~~~
sokoloff
"Compound growth" is one of the main reasons many of us have settled around
the "start working full time early in the 2nd quarter of your life" approach.

------
29athrowaway
Deep work is what people that actually work call regular work. The non-deep
work I call meta work.

------
troughway
Sometimes I wish HN would have an almanac of topic themes that keep coming up.
Flow/Deep Work seem to be a constantly recurrent theme, as is “imposter
syndrome” and other pseudoscientific garbage that people discuss with high
authority, quoting this and that author.

For the next poster that wants to toss their hat into the ring, please do a
piece on the Quiet Eye. I’d love to hear your thoughts on it.

~~~
andreilys
I believe the scientific term for this is blogspam

~~~
Fiveplus
Rightly so, maybe the only 'daily' article we're missing today is one focused
on DDG (aka google bashing).

