
Tell HN: Apply HN applications now closed, let's discuss the next step - dang
Applications for Apply HN closed a few hours ago. Now we need a way to sift through the threads and give the community a final say.<p>A few users have suggested that we create a list of applications that had the most interest, then run a poll to let the community produce a final ranking. That seems reasonable, so we can tentatively consider that the default plan, depending on what other ideas appear in this thread.<p>Unfortunately I have to be offline most of today, but I&#x27;ll read and respond to the comments here tonight.<p>Edit (11 PM Pacific): I&#x27;m back now but just too tired and need time to think about this. Sorry. More in the next couple days.
======
alantrrs
As someone who submitted yesterday [1], I'd think we need to give new
applications more days to catch up with early applications before making a
decision.

Also, I think in order to give more reliability to the HN votes and ranking we
need to find a way to give a similar exposure to all the applications, this
would make up for other bias like time of submission.

One idea is to feature a subset of the applications in the front-page for a
given amount of time. (not sure if that's what you're trying to do with
/applyrand)

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11586948](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11586948)

------
baron816
I'm definitely biased, but I say YC should have someone comb through the top
~100 upvoted submissions and pick the best 20 or so. Let those that get picked
write up a really solid short pitch, and then let everyone with a certain
level of karma vote. That would allow real HN members a chance to seriously
review submissions so that the best ones can be chosen.

I think it's possible to game the system as it is now. You can get your
buddies to upvote you, submit at the right time, etc.

~~~
brudgers
What I don't think can be gamed is the quality of the discussion. I mean even
if someone sock puppets good "technical" questions in order to provide good
"technical" answers, that just demonstrates there is depth behind the
application. On the other hand, sock puppeteering "Awsome! +1" won't generate
quality discussion.

~~~
baron816
How do you quantify quality discussion?

~~~
iamthepieman
I think the whole point is to qualify the quantity not the other way around.

~~~
cyphar
I don't know if you're serious, but I'll bite. "Quantify" == express or
measure a quantity (thus having an objective measurement that can be compared
with other quantitative measurements). GP's point was how to you create a
measurement for "quality of discussion" that isn't subjective.

~~~
iamthepieman
And my point was that the whole thing is subjective and the value is in the
subjective quality of the discussion.

------
rubidium
328 Apply HN's currently
[[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=%22Apply%20HN%22&sort=byPopula...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=%22Apply%20HN%22&sort=byPopularity&prefix=false&page=1&dateRange=all&type=story)].

Personally, cadwolf
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11441930](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11441930))
was the most interesting to me. I think they're biting off too much... but
it's an opportunity rich environment.

~~~
moflome
Not sure if this is the best place for this comment but is the CADWOLF focus
ME only, could it be expanded to EE as well?

Would like to see a way to help contribute to product / market fit on this and
other Apply HN's, btw.

~~~
theuttick
EE problems will be addressed in later versions of the system. The hope is
that it will be able to monitor voltage and current requirements and tie those
into the math. Circuit board type problems are a back burner thing for now.

If you want to contact me, you can get my email from the team page on cadwolf.

~~~
bsilvereagle
I really like your concept. I'm curious how you think it compares to a LaTeX
workflow though.

For example, I have MATLAB generate figures and *.tex files containing LaTeX
formatted tables. I have C# Solidworks macros to generate PDFs of CAD. If the
analysis changes, the MATLAB outputs automatically update, and the same with
CAD files. These 'outputs' get picked up by LaTeX on compile. Other than a
WYSIWYG editor vs a 'compiler', are there any fundamental benefits to the
cadwolf workflow you're envisioning?

~~~
theuttick
There would be both logistical and technical benefits.

1\. A direct link between the CAD, the math, and the documentation. I don't
believe that Solidworks will update its models without pulling the matlab
output onto the server and the documentation won't update without creating the
PDFs and pulling them into the PDFs.

2\. CADWOLF will allow you the ability to create template items like fittings
or trusses that consist of a CAD model and the math. Your junior engineers
drop this into their designs and give defined inputs like loads and the truss
redesigns itself.

3\. The part tree system organizes all of these facets and gives you the
ability to see real time system weight/cost/whatever instead of having your
people update spreadsheets.

4\. A link between your work and neighboring parts/systems. Although the stack
you described "works" whenever the jackhole sitting in the cube next to you
updates his model, you have to wait for him to tell you and then go through
the entire redesign/upload/redo process. CADWOLF will see those changes and
update accordingly.

5\. One system vs Matlab, Solidworks, C#, PDFs, LaTex, etc. Since it is
browser based, it can be seen by anyone/anywhere. This is more logistics, but
it prevents you from having like six pieces of software running and it
prevents you from making a mistake somewhere.

6\. Scale. We will have an AWS server side that can be scaled up instead of
being limited to your desktop. This will also help small companies that don't
want to buy large computing systems.

7\. Process. Since you have access to every person's documentation for a
system through a part tree, you can open that doc and check their work from
anywhere. A checkoff system will eventually be implemented.

I did something similar to what you are doing with all of the different pieces
of software. It really doesn't seem that bad until you realize that it could
all be done automatically. There are also far fewer engineers capable of doing
what you are doing than most people realize. You're like in the top 10% of
production in my experience.

------
rdl
I would love to see Pinboard in YC somehow (although might make more sense for
Core vs. Fellowship); more people with some level of cost-consciousness in how
they build infrastructure would be a win for the alumni network, plus it is a
great product. What would be interesting to me is if Maciej would actually
enjoy the process; I think he would.

------
toyg
The poll sounds good, but tbh I'd consider granting an automatic entrance
wildcard to "Pinboard McPinboardface", without having it on the poll. It's
well-deserved and there is no point in reiterating that the internet has a
sense of humour.

------
jamesk_au
I would have found it easier to review these Apply HN threads if each
applicant had completed the full YC Fellowship application and posted that in
their thread as well. For many of the existing threads, there's just not very
much to go on, but you have to read each thread before you can work that out.
You can feel the inefficiency begin to drag at you as you go through the
review process.

Question: Why don't you require all Apply HN applicants to complete the full
YCF application, and open those applications to the HN community? Each YCF
application includes an option to generate a corresponding Apply HN thread.
Comments from the HN community are made available to YC reviewers. The
applicant consents to disclosure by ticking the Apply HN box.

Anyone who posted an Apply HN thread could have just lodged their own YCF
application anyway, which the YC team would have had to review and determine
in the usual way—but completing the application mandates a baseline level of
information about the applicant's team and startup. So why not leverage the
existing process and help the HN community help you to review them.

Unfortunately none of that will help you choose applicants from among the
existing Apply HN threads (sorry), but it might be worth considering for the
next stage of the experiment.

~~~
danieltillett
James I don't think we need a full application (who wants to watch hundred of
videos), but we do need more details from the short list. The 2000 character
limit of the original application process was just too limiting for many
applications.

~~~
pedalpete
I think James in is on the right track though. A short intro to gather
interest and get discussion going with a link to the application might work
for the future.

------
gyardley
What's wrong with using the already expressed intentions of the community, as
expressed by the upvotes on each submission, as the 'final say'?

You should give the money to Pinboard.

~~~
tptacek
I don't understand how YC could _not_ invest in Pinboard, given the
opportunity.

~~~
overcast
The thing is, what does Pinboard actually need? It's a lean one man operation,
and has a viable subscription model. Why would that person want VC money?

~~~
idlewords
I like money!

~~~
overcast
It's not your money!

~~~
narrowrail
I do not understand the point of this comment at all. Everybody doing 'Apply
HN' is looking for outside capital. Pinboard has a loyal following that would
probably be interested in additional value being added to it.

~~~
bbcbasic
I think it is clear. When someone invests in your business, it is not your
money. It belongs to the business and is there to help the business grow.

------
detaro
Someone commented recently on older submissions being closed for comments: If
it is technically possible without too much effort, you should open all the
threads for comments for X days before/during the "vote" (however it looks).
Many people are going to pay attention (again) to the threads, and they should
be able to ask questions and receive answers before they vote.

------
abhi3
My suggestion:

1) Filter out troll applications and applications with fake votes and other
ineligible applications.

2) From the sanitized list find out the top 10

3) Start a poll where users can choose from the top 10 (but don't rank them in
the poll, randomize the placements and don't show live voting stats to prevent
bias)

4) Give every applicant on the poll the opportunity to post why one should
vote for within a short word limit. As we have seen from low engagement after
the first few days, extremely few users will read 10 complete threads and make
their choice.

~~~
miguelrochefort
> 1) Filter out troll applications and applications with fake votes and other
> ineligible applications.

How exactly do you identify "troll" applications? The most important ideas are
often the most likely to be perceived as an act of trolling.

~~~
minimaxir
Note that OP is being very coy and is not disclosing the fact that the
proposed rules benefit his own Apply HN submission.

The OP is referring to Pinboard which was a joke submission.

~~~
idlewords
What basis do you have for claiming it's a joke?

~~~
minimaxir
Pinboard is not eligible for the YCF because it is not an early-stage startup.

Otherwise the submission is perfectly fine. :p

~~~
idlewords
From
[https://fellowship.ycombinator.com/faq/](https://fellowship.ycombinator.com/faq/):

"The only restrictions on acceptable teams are founders must be willing to
work on their ideas full-time, and teams can’t have previously taken money
from investors."

~~~
minimaxir
Huh. It appears I have been lawyered.

~~~
abhi3
From the same page:

 _What if we haven’t yet received investment, but we have a ton of traction,
users, revenue, etc.?

We want YC Fellowship to really help teams that are just starting off, or have
been struggling to get traction. If you’re doing really well, we’ll likely ask
you to apply for the next batch of Y Combinator._

~~~
idlewords
This says nothing about eligibility. It only suggests that such teams—which
are allowed to apply—are unlikely to be selected.

In this case, the normal selection process has been changed by throwing the
decision to Hacker News. And the people have spoken!

------
minimaxir
> then run a poll to let the community produce a final ranking

Given the voting patterns on some of the Apply HNs so far, I hope that the
voting ring detector on the poll is extra-strict. :P

(Fortunately, such patterns have been in in the minority of Apply HN
submissions from what I've noticed, though.)

------
brudgers
Maybe the next step in the process could be a period for those interested to
go back and read through the applications. This could be followed by a brief
period where the threads were reopened for relevant questions and answers.
This could be followed by the polling.

My take is that this would sort of parallel the regular YC process of
application->interview->selection except that it would eliminate "rolling
selection". My gut is that the implication of "rolling selection" may have
encouraged problematic "Apply HN" strategies. Not to mention it's too late for
it to be part of this cycle anyway.

Good luck.

------
Geekette
A polled ranking sounds good but that may not be a reliable gauge of a
project's ultimate "interestingness" or viability, just a gauge of HN
community's preferences. E.g. a project with great potential (market, usage,
etc) may not seem so simply because very few HNers find it interesting.
Activity and discussion also dropped after the first couple of days - I
reviewed and asked questions on some then forgot about it. I'll take final run
through the list now. For future iterations, some sort of opt-in notification
system might help.

------
rdl
I'd like to see some YC people (dang? kevin?) go through the entire list and
find 25 or so great ones. Then, ask those people to flesh out their apps a bit
more, then have discussion and community voting.

I'd be fine trusting YC to make the first pass, and community make the final
selection.

~~~
abhi3
I think the whole point of the experiment was to select applicants YC would
not normally pick. This would bring back all YC biases.

Quoting dang _" If it seems unstructured, that's on purpose: we don't want to
bias it along the lines of how YC already operates. We want to see what the
community comes up with."_

~~~
ryporter
Having read through many of the applications, I think that we could safely get
down to 25 without risking throwing out any that deserve the win. There just
weren't all that many applications that clearly described a remotely plausible
business idea and that had founders who posted thoughtful responses. I would
say that at least half of the applications seemed like a hobby or an idea that
had been simmering in the back of someone's mind, with little to no thought
given to how it could turn into a viable business.

------
theuttick
Note about discussion on submissions - the comments closed at the standard
time so when people looked at old submissions they couldn't participate in the
discussion.

------
philippnagel
How will "most interest" be defined?

~~~
wjg
Seconded. Additionally, I'd love to see a distribution of comments/upvotes by
date of submission (such data I think could be gleaned from HN search). My
eyeballs tell me posts submitted within the first 2 or 3 days of Apply HN got
much more traffic/discussion. Certainly it is possible that those first posts
warranted such discussion and subsequent posts did not. Or maybe I'm
completely wrong in my observation, which is why I'd like to see such data.

Also, after ApplyHN became randomized (around midway thru the experiment) it
seemed like discussion dramatically fell again, but it was definitely tough to
tell since refreshing showed new applications every time.

Fun experiment though and I'm excited to see what types of projects the
community picks.

~~~
tshannon
Yeah, what was the criteria for making it to the main Apply listing? Was it
number of votes? Comments? Our application never showed up there:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11467813](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11467813)

~~~
wjg
Yep, mine never made it to the front of ApplyHN either. It seemed like unless
it got at least one or two immediate upvotes, it disappeared into the abyss,
thus making it even less likely to get traffic.

------
wehadfun
The quantifiable attributes of Apply HN should not be the main factors in
determining which one makes it. I think we should vote on the most thoughtful,
helpful commenters and let those people chose 1 apply hn that they think
should survive.

------
phantom_oracle
Most of these ideas will not have mass-market appeal, precisely because this
is a tech-centric market.

I could have submitted an idea like this:

    
    
        Instagram for Pets
        OR
        Tinder for food
    

I would probably get about 3-4 upvotes on HN, but a "stupid" idea(s) like this
could easily get 1+ million app users the same way "Yo" did.

What you guys should have used the Apply HN for is to fund ideas like "open-
source as a business". Rather give that money to GitLab-type ideas so that
even if the founders fizzle out, the IP remains in the open and can be used by
everyone.

~~~
secfirstmd
This effect is especially true for those of us who are non-profits.

"Give food to the poor and needy" often understandably has more appeal and is
a quicker reference point to the normal citizen than the stuff we do: "Hey
it's becoming more dangerous than ever for a small amount of the people who
deliver the food to the poor and needy, so let's think of a open source
technical approach way to make it easier." Both are very worthy/important, but
some messages are just easier/clearer for people in a voting process.

------
danieltillett
I went through most of the applications and comments earlier in the month (I
need to do the rest) and it took me around 6 hours [1].

I think the best option might be for someone at YC (Dan this is going to be
you) to make a top 20 list and ask those applicants to put in a longer
application that we can then rank and comment on - the 2000 character limit of
the initial application process was too limiting in my opinion to use for the
final ranking.

1\.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11477879](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11477879)

------
jernejpregelj
How about this:

-1st round: Submit application (with this we get all submitions and all users that spent time submiting so we already have filtered users that have knowledge on startups)

-2nd round: Every user that submited for 1st round gets to pick for example 3 of 10 other random submitions we present to them that are then evaluated on that votes (This way we avoid ring voting and dumb mass voting. Note that for next cycle we can allow users from previous cycle to evaluate too!)

------
rokhayakebe
My pics:

Statistics/Data Analysis As a Service.

SponsorGigs: Event / Sponsors Matching Service.

925: Job Search Assistant Via SMS.

NextAppointment: Automatically Suggests Your Next Dental/Doctor Appointment
based on Your Availability and Theirs.

Knowledge Maps: Curated Links for Specific Topics.

Signl.FM: Medium, Twitter for Voice/Audio.

Automate: Bookkeeping & Accounting automated.

Remember: Google For All Your Files.

Agora: Debate Local Issues.

Therapy: P2P Therapy Phone Calls.

Wanderlust: Recommended Trips Based on Budget.

AuthorInvestments: Fund Works You Like in Exchange of Future Royalties.

Social Network for Farmers.

Krewe: Make New Friends Where You Live.

------
vishalzone2002
its hard to identify a good candidate. I think a combination of votes, the
discussion that happened and then obviously standard evaluation of idea,
market, etc is a good strategy.

So many ideas are amazing. May the best ideas win. I think for the ones that
do make to top list but not to yc fellowship, it would be really helpful for
them if one of the YC partners can provide brief feedback/advice/direction to
them.

~~~
jonwachob91
It'd be nice but they probably won't for the same reasons they don't provide
feedback to real YCF or YC applications.

------
theuttick
Although I was initially against it, having another "round" where partners
narrow the list could allow for a number of questions to be answered. Most of
these questions could not be addressed in the 2000 character limit of the
initial post. These questions include things like whether or not the
applicant(s) have the ability to complete the project, what is their domain
expertise, have they worked on the project on their own, what is the market
size, how are they better than the competition, can they explain how the idea
is really a worthwhile company and not just a neat idea that is really more of
a feature on an existing product.

It would also allow for more conversation since the readers would not have to
comb through as many applicants.

------
educar
I am against the idea of anonymous voting. There is too much gaming involved
here. I think only HN accounts that are identifiable to a real person should
be allowed to vote. Not sure how you can enforce this though.

~~~
lettergram
I think there has already been a ridiculous amount of gaming, regardless of
real person or not. I mentioned in a previous comment about this that even the
time of day you post can dramatically impact how many votes you get because of
the way the system works.

------
dineshp2
Could someone enlighten me about Pinboard, the founder idlewords and the back
story/relation with YC.

The comments regarding Pinboard and idlewords are very interesting.

Note: I am only asking out of curiosity.

~~~
thaumaturgy
I'll take a crack at it. A long time ago, idlewords and pg were both active
here and they were the opposite ends of some kind of spectrum. pg would write
things and idlewords would throw rocks at them and sometimes write his own
things in response. At some point idlewords got temporarily hellbanned. It was
supposedly some kind of innocent error but at that point idlewords took his
ball and went home.

At some point he started up a bookmarking service to compete with Delicious,
and it _really_ took off after Yahoo bought Delicious and then made an unholy
mess of it. A lot of early Delicious users (myself included) went looking for
an alternative, and there was pinboard, waiting for us, and it was better in a
lot of respects.

So he's done pretty well at running pinboard, it is a lifestyle business, and
he's an excellent writer and it's hard to tell whether he's a writer that
happens to own a bookmarking service or a programmer that happens to be a
decent writer. Anyway, a lot of the stuff he's written has gotten some
exposure and he's given some talks. I've started to see people talking about
his website obesity presentation
([http://idlewords.com/talks/website_obesity.htm](http://idlewords.com/talks/website_obesity.htm))
in circles WAY removed from HN.

He uses his twitter feed to poke fun at the SV startup scene, too. Overall
he's a foil to some of the sillier aspects of Silicon Valley.

------
Houshalter
What is Apply HN? Somehow I missed this.

~~~
miguelrochefort
Same here. It's such a shame that we allow for such important things to be
miss-able.

~~~
cannam
Yep, hundreds of comments on the original post, 300+ submissions on the new
Apply tab on the top nav of the site -- and I'd missed it completely as well.
Even though I read this site far more than I should do.

Of course somebody has to miss these things, you can't reach everyone. It just
feels strange when it's you.

I would love to see the pattern of how those 300+ submitters came to hear of
it.

~~~
abhi3
Media outlets like Tech Crunch covered it as well :P

[http://techcrunch.com/2016/04/06/y-combinator-flirts-with-
ha...](http://techcrunch.com/2016/04/06/y-combinator-flirts-with-having-
hacker-news-community-pick-fellowship-companies/)

~~~
cannam
Ah, not even a full-blown case of FOMO will induce me to read TechCrunch.

------
blazespin
dang, I really like apply HN. I think it helps not just ycombinator fund the
right ones, but also really helps inspire the ecosystem to come up with good
ideas.

~~~
minimaxir
> but also really helps inspire the ecosystem to come up with good ideas

Let's talk about that, since we're on the subject. Most of the ideas presented
in Apply HN submissions reminded me of the old "Idea Sunday" threads. To quote
dang
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7693640](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7693640))

> Having all these ideas in one place makes the whole less than the sum of its
> parts. [...] Ideas are better in the wild. Let's discuss them as they come
> up organically, rather than try to organize an idea-fest.

The most popular Apply HN submissions I've seen are "LinkedIn that does not
suck!" which is not a high bar of innovation. However...that is the bar for
the YC Fellowship, which allows for unformed ideas, so I'm unsure whether I
_should_ be criticizing such submissions.

~~~
blazespin
agreed, idea sunday was awesome. removing it was really really dumb.

------
paulsutter
Does anyone have contact information for chroem-, who submitted the
application for Mechanical Mind? It's too late to comment on the listing, and
there's no contact info on his profile.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11442038](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11442038)

~~~
theuttick
I was trying to get in touch with him too. The images on the application can
be traced back to an ME page for Carnegie Mellon but there is no contact info
on that site or on the imgur site that hosts the images.

------
nxzero
Is there a singular landing page to track official posts related to "Apply HN"
updates?

------
nxzero
Why were some users ban for posting "Apply HN" apps?

------
jedgardyson
Hi everyone! I'm Gabriel, one of the founders of Casepad which is currently
the second most upvoted Apply HN Post [0].

Before I launch into an argument for how to conduct the selection process I
wanted to say thanks to everyone who contributed to Apply HN. The feedback and
support that we received went beyond our wildest expectations and regardless
of what happens we're glad we participated.

<argument> _With that being said,_ I would suggest that upvotes and comments
should have serious weight in the decision of who receives the fellowship. My
understanding of this process was that it was an opportunity for members of HN
to express their voice in the YCF selection process and it seems to me that
the way they do so is via comments and upvotes. While the idea of a "runoff"
selection with the top five or top ten most upvoted posts is appealing in
practice it also disregards much of the work that the community put into
vetting and discussing existing submissions. A runoff also doesn't solve the
problem that it purports to solve, that some submissions got more structural
attention than others, because it is also being conducted on an anonymous
message board over an arbitrarily selected period of time (not unlike the
first 20 odd days of Apply HN). As an example, someone who had the chance to
vote or comment on ApplyHN might miss the runoff because of a bad week at
work, and that means that their voices could be washed out.

I have a vested interest in saying this, but I am skeptical (until I see data)
of all of the oblique suggestions that the front runners' posts only made it
there because of bandwagoning. I like to think that we, along with many of the
other front runners, presented a strong idea that deserved the attention it
got. A separate but related point is that this is HN, not a randomized
controlled experiment in selecting companies, so the habits and voting
patterns of the community should be seen as a feature rather than a bug.

If I were running this selection process I would say that some combination of
comments + upvotes + the judgment of the partners who will work with these
companies would be the best way to choose the fellowship recipients.

But, that's just me :). </argument>

Thanks again to everyone who upvoted, asked questions, and gave feedback. More
thoughts + feedback are always welcome. (I'm at gajbotelho@gmail.com if anyone
wants to reach out privately.)

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11452884](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11452884)

EDIT: Small edits for clarity.

EDIT2: Removed "(a more focused version of /u/baron816's suggestion)" because
it just wasn't that accurate of a statement

~~~
josh_carterPDX
Co-Founder of Brightwork here. This is great and would echo this sentiment.

------
moshiasri
May the best thread win...

------
rakibtg
People gonna copy idea, its that easy i think.

