
Twits Know: Google Quietly Laying Off Engineers  - nickb
http://blog.searchenginewatch.com/blog/090208-230735
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vital_sol
My friend was let go from Goog ~ 3 weeks ago. Was classified as
"underperforming," put on PIP, worked his ass off while on PIP, and then fired
without any severance. He was with Goog for 3 years, not a new hire.

~~~
patio11
What does PIP mean in this context? Is it a probationary status, or a "here's
a mentor to teach you to work better" status, or some combination of the two,
perhaps?

~~~
neilk
PIP is a Performance Improvement Plan. It's not a Google thing, these things
are common in corporate America.

The employee is asked to sign a document that admits they are underperforming,
with the promise that they can turn the situation around through their own
efforts. In practice, the PIP is used to provide an evidence trail to fire
someone.

PIP is not the same thing as being laid off. In a layoff, you sometimes can
get your boss to sign a letter that states this was NOT termination due to
poor performance.

~~~
jacquesm
That sounds like simple blackmail to me. Sign this now or we'll fire your ass
today, if you sign we _may_ not fire you in the future, but we definitely will
be able to a lot easier.

You lose either way.

~~~
neilk
Actually, in my experience with a PIP, it doesn't threaten you'll be fired
today.

It's _emotional_ blackmail. I was told, in black and white, that I sucked and
I was holding everyone back. For anyone with any self-doubt or need for social
approval, a statement like that will feel like a ton of bricks. But then they
offer a path to redemption: sign a document, then complete these tasks, and
all will be well again. Since I have a programmer's ego I feel I can code my
way out of any situation. So I signed.

And I did so knowing full well that I was doing something against my
interests. But oddly, at the time, that didn't matter as much to me as
redeeming myself in other people's eyes.

If this ever happens to you, the thing to recognize is that at that moment,
the company is no longer your friend (if it ever was) and from now on, every
dealing with you is probably going to be backhanded. Loyalty and pride in
accomplishment are suddenly bad traits for you to indulge in.

The best option may be to sign and slack off while you job-hunt. Or, if you
are quick to realize that there is no way out, to offer to go away, in
exchange for a decent amount of severance.

Either way, I was foolish to sign without getting a lawyer to examine the
document first.

~~~
kennyroo
Completely agree. If you find yourself on a PIP, start looking for a new job
elsewhere ASAP. Speaking as a manager who has seen this play out several times
at different companies, a performance improvement plan should always be seen
as invitation to leave. It always surprises me how few people get that. The
company is essentially saying, "We're just not that into you."

If the company is large enough, they'll almost always be willing to pay you
something (4-6 weeks salary is fairly standard) to go away quietly. Your best
bet is to negotiate some kind of exit package while simultaneously looking for
new employment. If you're good at it you can dovetail them so that your
employment record is seamless. Your employer may even be willing to give you
time off to interview. (Remember, they _want_ you to leave.)

The chances of making a comeback after being put on a PIP are slim. It's a HR
formality that's essentially a prelude to termination, to protect the company
from potential litigation. I don't have hard numbers, but I'd estimate that
75%+ of employees placed on a PIP will either leave or be terminated within 3
months.

Lastly, a PIP doesn't mean you're a bad person. In fact, it may not even be a
reflection of your performance. Sometimes personality and budget issues play a
large role. American companies don't have many options when cutting staff, and
they often default to this one when they don't want "layoff" headlines. I'm
not defending it (it's a sucky practice), but see it for what it is, try not
to take it personally, and get the hell out before things get really bad.

~~~
neilk
_they often default to this one when they don't want "layoff" headlines._

Interesting. So I guess you think it is plausible that Google would be mass-
PIPping rather than announce layoffs.

~~~
kennyroo
Absolutely.

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danbmil99
My impression has always been that Google has a "systemic hiring problem", as
well as some deep organizational problems that make it very hard to get true
productivity out of their workforce. 18 hour days are the last resort of bad
managers. Then you get to the "The beatings will continue until morale
improves!" phase, which sounds like where they're at now.

The original Goog model just wasn't scalable, and now they have to completely
re-engineer the company. It won't be easy.

~~~
ambition
Can you elaborate? What is their systemic hiring problem? What are some of the
deep organizational problems? What was the original model and why doesn't it
scale?

I suspect some of these might be obvious to people close to Google but I'm
intensely curious.

~~~
potatolicious
My own anecdote: when I interviewed with Google it seemed to me that there was
a lot of kool-aid drinking and elitism in the process.

There was a time when if you were not from Stanford you didn't stand a
snowball's chance in hell of getting hired. Obviously as Google grew this
requirement flew out the window, but they are still extremely biased against
people from "lesser" colleges, even ones who have impressive portfolios and
experience. In my experience academics is one of the poorest indicators of
actual work performance you can use.

Note that this isn't sour grapes :P Google recruits heavily from my college
(lucky me?), but I generally dislike companies that assign too much weight to
academics. This includes NVidia, which enforces a strict minimum-GPA
requirement on all hires, but I digress.

During my interview my interviewer seemed to really have a problem because I
wasn't a die-hard Google fanatic. At the time I had a Gmail account that was
idle most of the time, I didn't do the Google home page bit (my google
experiences are strictly vanilla), and outside of Google Maps my interaction
with G-products are relatively limited. He didn't seem to take that so well.

~~~
katamole
What was the position you applied for?

I ask because if you applied for a Sysadmin (or somesuch) position, I can see
your lack of usage of Google products as fairly irrelevant. But if you were
going for some sort of product development post, I can see why your
interviewer might be somewhat uninterested in you.

------
paul
I have no specific knowledge, but I'd be surprised if there was a general
layoff in Engineering. It seems more likely that they are pushing on people
they have classified as "underperforming". I think they also shut down a few
remote offices (there was a blog post about this), and anyone who doesn't want
to relocate will be out.

~~~
jacquesm
crises are a great excuse to lay off a bunch of people that were on the low
side of 'acceptable' anyway.

In 'good' times employers can get quite a backlash from doing this, in 'bad'
times nobody complains and those that get to keep their jobs will work harder
to avoid being 'axed' because of the crisis.

Oldest trick in the book, I've seen this happen at a bank where I worked in
the gray past.

It would not surprise me one bit if employers would exaggerate the situation
in order to push through even more layoffs.

~~~
strlen
This also has the advantage of not being as damaging or negative to the
employees being let go as well (no stigma of being fired).

~~~
alecco
That's meaningless in the context of the problem of trying to get a job in a
recession.

~~~
strlen
I've switched jobs (voluntarily) when the recession just hit (September '08).
I still get requests from headhunters, without looking. Part of it has to do
with having Yahoo! on my resume -- and I'd imagine having Google would
somewhat more impressive.

It's just a job someone will find now may not be a job on their terms.

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ggruschow
These people are talking about having lots of friends that could get a job
anywhere (as in, they're unbelievably awesome). I wish I had a ton of friends
like that. Either their standards are lower, or this is the fundamental thing
about SV that I miss.

~~~
andreyf
_friends that could get a job anywhere (as in, they're unbelievably awesome)_

You don't have to be that awesome... generally, if you can create more wealth
for a company than they pay you, you can get a job there.

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RiderOfGiraffes
See also: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=473007>

Same news, posted 2 hours earlier.

~~~
alone
But that was "searchenginejournal.com", this is the far different and more
insightful "searchenginewatch.com"

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Maro
I think a large organization like Google, with thousands of engineers can
safely fire say 10% without loosing much productivity. I refuse to believe
that Google has some magic hiring strategy that allows them to hire only
smart, motivated and productive people. I'm sure they, like every other large
corporation (PIP agreement?!) have a 10% "fat layer" of people who are not
very motivated, productive, etc. I'm not saying these people are stupid, they
just might not fit in or whatever.

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ruslan
The Rise and Fall of Google Empire. Everything in less than a decade.

~~~
DenisM
Isn't it interesting how things seem to get faster and faster?

~~~
jbarciauskas
I.e., the technological singularity:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity>

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andrewljohnson
This is all hearsay.

