
Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership - anexprogrammer
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/sturgeon-seeks-urgent-brussels-talks-to-protect-scotlands-eu-membership
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atmosx
The EU membership will most likely come with a change of currency, which means
leaving the BoE for the ECB. Given the ECB's track record and it's inability
to do what a central bank ought to do - protect banks from bank runs, devalue,
etc. - I believe that it's suicidal. The QE was was a joke.

Surplus recycling is nowhere to be found in the European Union, vis-a-vis
Germany Scotland will have deficit, hence it's doomed in the long run to
become like Greece.

The way the EU manages the economy, it's stupid for any deficit country to
come in and compared to Germany, everybody will be in huge deficit in the long
run. At that point you depend on the Bundesbank to over-value and the German
government to raise salaries. None of this will happen, at that point you'll
have a country on it's knees depending on a foreign institution (the ECB) who
is controlled by a foreign nation which has it's own interests to protect.

I'm sorry for GB. I'm sorry that a nation had to go through this, but their
best bet is to stick together.

EDIT: The first thing that the German gov did after Brexit says a long shot
about how Germany envisions Europe: They summoned the 6 (or 7) countries that
created the European Union. But the EU has 27 members now.

Do you really want to be part of a union who doesn't give a damn about you and
give your monetary policy to that union?

About 16 years ago, at her last speech, M. Thatcher in a rare moment of
enlightenment said about the EUR: _He who control the interest rates controls
the Economy and he who controls the economy controls the politics in Europe_

She was spot on.

~~~
touristtam
The EU project is a political one (encompassing things like currency, fiscal
and social union), and not just a single market like the most liberal English
right winger want it to be. The referendum is a plebiscite for this politic,
even though it seems that part of the electorate has been conned into voting
to leave.

~~~
atmosx
I have a romantic view of referendums: I don't believe that decision taken via
referendum can be _wrong_. It's the quintessence of democracy and I ultimately
believe in democracy, which means I believe that the majority votes as best as
the can.

IMHO you're misunderstanding: Listening _BBC Radio 5_ the last couple of days
I can say that lack of transparency, austerity promotion and the way countries
like Greece (primarily), Ireland and Portugal were treated in 2014 and 2015 by
the EU played a major role in turning voters to Brexit.

~~~
touristtam
Having seen first hand the British media (both English and Scottish) coverage
of the debate surrounding the EU referendum, I can confidently say that part
of the British electorate has been mislead to think all blame are on the EU
institution. There is also the antiquated notion of Nation-State that does not
apply to the UK as Northern Ireland and Scotland have voted to remain and are
now seeing their future outside the EU against their will.

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carsongross
This is exactly how secession should work. Clearly the Scots and the English
and Welsh have different opinions on being part of the EU. It is tyrannical
for either group to force their preference on the others.

So let Scotland secede and join the EU. Problem solved, human freedom and
happiness maximized.

See 'Secession: The Reasonable Option Everyone Resists' by Tom Woods:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXOEdvfMeIY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXOEdvfMeIY)

~~~
BrutallyHonest
It would be more fair to hold a referendum in England whether it should be
united with Scotland. Would be more productive for Scotland's independence.

~~~
bArray
I know of a lot of British people who do not want Scotland to be part of the
UK. They get more funding per head, their own government and then complain
they are unfairly treated.

~~~
amouat
Unfairly treated? You mean like being dragged out of a union against our
political will?

~~~
jwdunne
Personally, I think you do deserve a second referendum. The remain/leave map
shows a clear border. Northumberland votes out. North of that, its all remain.

The biggest thing to me is that many in the leave camp used very similar
arguments against the leave camp in the Scottish indy ref.

That and the EU/better together camp said Scotland wouldn't be part of the EU
if they left and should therefore stay.

Note: from Manchester. Voted remain. Don't see the SNP as the national threat
they're portrayed to be.

~~~
bArray
" _Personally, I think you do deserve a second referendum. The remain /leave
map shows a clear border. Northumberland votes out. North of that, its all
remain._"

It's tough luck. You can't threaten to quit every time things don't work out
for you.

" _The biggest thing to me is that many in the leave camp used very similar
arguments against the leave camp in the Scottish indy ref._ "

I don't think anybody envisioned we would actually leave.

" _That and the EU /better together camp said Scotland wouldn't be part of the
EU if they left and should therefore stay._"

It's not entirely clear that Scotland will be able to join the EU anyway.
There's a long waiting list and large payment required.

" _Note: from Manchester. Voted remain. Don 't see the SNP as the national
threat they're portrayed to be._"

I also voted remain. I'm not afraid of the threat of Scotland to the rest of
the UK, I'm afraid of Scotland's threat to itself.

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Oletros
An important part of the campaign against the independence was that they would
be out of the EU, isn't?

The irony is really big here

~~~
matthewmacleod
Quite the case. One of the key reasons that the Scottish referendum in 2014
was not won was because of uncertainty about continued EU membership and the
currency that the country would use.

To make that decision and less than two years later be dragged out of the EU
anyway has pissed off a bunch of people. Lots of noise coming from former 'no'
voters and media about how they feel misled. And now that Scotland has
resoundingly - 24% margin! - voters to remain in the EU, it seems there is a
bit of a mandate.

I am not enjoying the atmosphere here at the moment. This whole thing has been
a colossal fuckup which has permanently damaged the UK.

~~~
nolok
> This whole thing has been a colossal fuckup which has permanently damaged
> the UK.

For me that's the biggest take away from it; half of the scots voters said
they wanted out of that union, which usually means "we don't feel that country
represents us properly". Now, that's not irreparable and you have a perfect,
even stronger example in recent times with Quebec and Canada. The solution was
"simple"; listen to them and go their way, if only a little. Show them that
you care about them being in. Laugh all you want about the French labels
everywhere in Canada but they're basically Canada saying "ok Quebec, we need
you, let's stay together".

With that Brexit vote, the UK has thrown away one of the biggest thing scots
were sure about; they wanted to be in the EU. Even if they manage to not lose
them through independence, it has been marked in the sand that England decides
and Scotland follows, even if they really don't want to.

(I mean 68% for remain ? I'm not sure any other EU country would get that at
the moment, maybe Germany)

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mhurron
Well, now I need to get Scottish citizenship when they get around to being
independent to get around the EU since a British passport isn't going to do it
any more.

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JumpCrisscross
Scotland, Northern Ireland and London wish to remain in the EU; non-London
England and Wales wish to leave. The U.K. is already in the EU. Structurally,
the simplest solution would be for non-City of London England* and Wales to
secede from the UK, thereby allowing Scotland, Northern Ireland and the City
to inherit the UK's EU membership. (Naturally, this won't happen because
politics.)

* Why the City of London versus Greater London? The City exists as a special legal entity in British law. Given how Parliament derives its right to rule from the Crown and the City has a special arrangement with the Crown, the City would find it technically easier to withdraw from England (while remaining in the UK) than Greater London.

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duncanawoods
There is a huge problem that the EU and IndyRef questions are mutually
dependent and cannot be fairly resolved by asking independent questions in
sequence. I believe the nuance of the situation requires multiple questions to
be asked at the same time.

Given we have already had IndyRef1 and EU1 the defaults are that Scotland is
part of the UK and that there will be a Brexit. There is something wrong about
repeating referendums until an irreversible result occurs. I believe Indyref2
would be fairer as two questions:

1\. "If Brexit, should Scotland be a separate country?" for Scots

2\. "Should we still Brexit if there would be a Scexit?" for the whole UK to
vote.

If the answers are "yes and no", then we get status quo.

~~~
DonaldFisk
Scotland leaving the UK was a reasonably foreseeable result of Brexit, so
voters in England and Wales should have asked themselves question 2 when they
voted on Thursday.

Britain, as a whole, voting for leaving the EU wasn't foreseen at the time of
the Scottish independence referendum, so voters in that wouldn't have asked
themselves question 1.

So the Scottish government should at this stage try to negotiate a Danish-
style deal (Scotland stays in EU _and_ UK). If they are successful, there
would be no immediate need for another independence referendum. Otherwise,
they should get the best EU membership terms they can for Scotland, and hold
another independence referendum.

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BurningFrog
The UK has granted independence to more countries than any other, they know
how to do it well, and how to have a good relation with the new nation.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
Lots of those countries had to get it through violence.

~~~
sidek
Most of those countries did come under, and were maintained under, British
rule because of violence.

But I don't think it's accurate to say that lots of them had to be violent to
get their independence. The British largely gave that politically.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
Here are some polities that had to use violence to achieve independence from
Britain: US India Pakistan Kenya Egypt Burma Sri Lanka Malaysia

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BenoitP
Link is a feed. Here is the article:

[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/sturgeon-
see...](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/sturgeon-seeks-urgent-
brussels-talks-to-protect-scotlands-eu-membership)

~~~
sctb
Thanks, we updated the submission link.

