
Honestly.com – Not acting so honestly - philfreo
http://philfreo.com/blog/honestly-com-not-acting-so-honestly/
======
alain94040
I got an email from Honestly showing me a picture of my wife, saying she is on
Honestly. She was sitting next to me when I got the email, so I turned to her
and asked: are you using Honestly? "Never heard of it" was her answer.

Rarely has a company chosen a name so opposed to their values.

~~~
cubicle67
I'd be interested to know where did they obtain your wife's photo, and under
what sort of terms/agreement are they using it?

Does Facebook allow third party sites to use images for any use (I'm assuming
the pic was from Facebook)? How is this (using a pic of your wife and claiming
she's a member) not outright deception?

~~~
todd3834
I would guess it is just the gravatar image based on her email...

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wccrawford
What he received by email was spam, plain and simple.

And the despicable way they handle signups speaks for itself. I would never
have gotten as far as he did because I know that anyone who does that is
scamming me. There's no other reason to do it. If people actually liked the
service, they wouldn't need to twist your arm to get you to sign up.

~~~
rickmb
Yep, 100% spam. Which also makes this business practice illegal in a large
number of countries around the world.

~~~
eli
So long as it had an optout link and the company's street address, it's
probably fine by US law.

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sunir
I wonder how long before people get 'viral' exhaustion from this crap. I
suppose it would not be inappropriate to extend the analogy to suggest people
are going to become immune to 'viral' apps.

Is there anyone out there that has built an app that grows primarily through
(ab)use of social network virality like Honestly? Are you seeing any
interesting behavioural changes over time as the population gets tired (or
conversely, accepting) of this model?

~~~
jessedhillon
I think Plaxo is probably the poster child for this strategy of growth through
shameless spam.

~~~
sunir
How successful is Plaxo, really?

<http://siteanalytics.compete.com/plaxo.com/>

I think they had their greatest moment when Joseph Smarr negotiated the
OpenID+OAuth hybrid protocol with Google. Google subsequently poached him.
They don't seem to have any other aces up their sleeves to survive.

~~~
gyardley
Didn't Plaxo already get bought by Comcast for +$100MM, or am I thinking of
some other company?

There's 'make the world a better place' successful, there's 'make something
people want' successful, but there's also 'make some cash for yourself and
your investors' successful. Sometimes invite spam can get you that last type
of successful, which is why we'll keep seeing it.

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elbrodeur
I'm becoming increasingly viral blind. In the same way banner blindness is
decreasing the value of CPM and moving things towards clickthrough, I find
myself not clicking on things because they seem viral in nature.

How long until viral blindess spreads to the people who play Farmville? Not
long. It's a typical conditioned response; when there are enough false
positives to tip your average joe off to the fact that broadcasting to your
networks does not produce the desired result, then people will start ignoring
hooks like these.

~~~
ZackOfAllTrades
Question: What is the next thing most companies will use to market themselves?
Banners, emails, and Likes are becomingly increasingly worthless, so where do
companies with marketing budgets turn to get customers?

Sounds like a market where people could start making pickaxes now.

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ianl
This is a prime example of how not to attract new users.

On another note, wouldn't a site like this have a significant problem where
the only people with enough motivation to make a post on a website like this
would be someone who has a chip on their shoulder? The same problem exists
with the doctor and teacher review websites.

~~~
alain94040
Yes. That was one of the reasons we were so successful at letslunch: the
reviews can't be gamed. You can't ask your friends to review you, because _we_
decide who gets to meet with you. Read some of the profiles like
<http://letslunch.com/public/316799/Luke_Stangel> and judge for yourself, I
believe those reviews are way more _honest_.

~~~
drcode
Of course, letslunch seems to game people as well: It's clear reading on other
sites that letslunch is only active in some cities, but there is no way to
find out this fact _anywhere_ on your site until after you've signed up.

~~~
alain94040
Considering that for 90% of the life of the site, the home page said "for
silicon valley" in bold, h1 headers, I wouldn't call that gaming. Now to take
your valid criticism into consideration, I added a mention to the FAQ.

~~~
callmevlad
Minor nitpick - there's a misspelling in the newly posted FAQ: "althoug we'd
love..."

~~~
alain94040
Thanks - fixed. I think we got that thread off-topic enough for the day.

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bcl
Sounds like the folks from classmates.com have started a new website...

(FYI classmates used to send out emails exactly like this, except for the
facebook integration. "Sandy has been looking for you on classmates.com".
Except there was no Sandy in my graduating class. I think they quit a few
years back.)

~~~
awarzzkktsyfj
"Classmates.com has agreed to refund nearly $10 million to users who were told
that long-lost school chums were looking at their profiles, only to find, once
they’d ponied up a subscription fee, that no one they knew was looking for
them at all."

[http://www.b12partners.net/wp/2010/03/16/classmates-com-
sett...](http://www.b12partners.net/wp/2010/03/16/classmates-com-settles-
lawsuit/)

------
daimyoyo
Someone needs to alert the FTC about this. Having an email saying "Someone
created a profile about you!" only to come to the site and all of the sudden
it says(after you're forced to market the company for them) "it looks like
there aren't any reviews yet" is textbook deceptive marketing.

~~~
chc
IANAL, but in all likelihood, the distinction between "created a profile for"
and "posted a review of" would save them. This is a textbook example of how to
trick people without actually claiming anything false.

An actual example that was in one of my textbooks: A car company claimed that
its new model was three times quieter. The company's competitors objected,
saying they didn't find it that superior to their offerings. The company
clarified for the FTC that the car was three times quieter on the inside than
the outside. The FTC agreed that this was accurate.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
I see nothing deceptive at all about the quiet car claim, as you've worded it.
I immediately assumed they meant quieter on the inside. Why would I care if my
car is quieter from the outside? I'm inside it when I'm driving.

~~~
chc
But when somebody says one particular car is "300% quieter", most people would
assume they're comparing it to some other car, not saying that it's quieter
inside the car than if you were standing in the middle of the freeway.
Honestly, I think that's at least as reasonable an assumption as "Somebody
made a profile for you" -> "Somebody has posted a comment about you."

~~~
rhizome
It's even worse than that. They're saying, "somebody created a profile for
you...us!"

------
tzm
Added them to Dark Patterns: <http://wiki.darkpatterns.org/Bait_and_Switch>

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amirhhz
If you were to be very lenient with them, it's all fine up to the LinkedIn
connection. But then to ask for a facebook like?! That's how College kids play
pranks on their mates, not how a community called "honestly" grows. Having
said that, hopefully the team who created this reads HN and will respond to
this and save some face.

~~~
OstiaAntica
That use of Like has to be against Facebook ToS. Would be awesome if FB shut
them down!

~~~
MichaelGG
You are correct:

<http://developers.facebook.com/policy/#policies>

"You must not incentivize users to use (or gate content behind the use of)
Facebook social channels, or imply that an incentive is directly tied to the
use of our channels."

It would be nice if FB took action.

~~~
gergles
They don't care about this. I have reported probably 20 pages that won't show
you content unless you "like" them, and they are still up and I have never
heard anything in response to my reports.

------
nod
To delete your account, send an email to support@honestly.com requesting
deletion (presumably from the email address they have for you). Info from
<http://www.honestly.com/static/privacy>

I signed up when it was Unvarnished and just starting out, and have never
gotten one bit of value from it.

~~~
kwis
The privacy policy also states: "that some information may remain in our
records after deletion of your account."

Not the best asterisk I've ever seen, given the complete lack of trust I have
with this company.

~~~
white_devil
Saying that "some information may remain in our records after deletion of your
account" is, of course, corporate bullshit weasel-speak for: "all of the
information gathered on you _will_ remain in our records indefinitely".

Honestly.com is disgusting.

------
awakeasleep
Wow. Not only are they attempting to create a virtual blacklist/battleground
and fuck with peoples' employment, but they want to tie it to people's real
identities via facebook.

I feel like if someone pulls this off, it'll be a society changing event. I
hope defamation laws would stop it before then, though.

~~~
pstack
Doesn't seem much different than that Rip Off Report guy. Except, unlike him,
they don't seem to be trying to extort money out of people to change the
comments about them.

------
ethanpurcell
Honestly SUCKS.

And I'm not saying that to be a troll. They are so dishonest and spam-y, and
from what I gather, offer very little redeeming value. I don't trust Honestly
at all.

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oskee80
Maybe I'm a luddite, but I would never give something access to my facebook
profile or contact list without ever actually using the service.

------
rudiger
What is Joshua Schachter's affiliation with Honestly? Has he made any comments
regarding this mess?

~~~
acangiano
There is no way he endorses this type of behavior. He may be an investor, one
of the many ([http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/19/unvarnished-honestly-
kazanj...](http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/19/unvarnished-honestly-kazanjy-
funding/)), but there is not a chance in hell that he is cool with spam like
this. He's been adamant against spam in the past, and has a track record of
very ethical behavior.

~~~
lurker19
Unless we see a sudden and swift cleanup, Aproximately $100k investment and a
yea vote at a board meeting appears to be a sufficient endorsemment.

~~~
jon_dahl
If he has a board seat, then yes, he should have some say here. But it's
really unlikely that he has a board seat.

An early stage investor has very little authority over what a startup does. At
best, they may have some advisory influence with the founders, if the founders
care about having a good relationship with the investor. But usually, that's
about it.

~~~
jeffwilliams74
Joshua is one of about a dozen angel investors in a round the company raised
back in October, along with First Round Capital and Charles River Ventures.
The real VCs took a board seat.

------
jenniart
I really don't understand how models like this keep popping up and how so many
companies can get away with it. At least (according to nod) you can delete
your account with Honestly (although not through the site, but a request). I
had an experience with a genealogy site that refused to EVER remove my account
or posts from years ago... even though they lead to me being (kind of) stalked
by a relative.

Anyway, thank you to tmz for pointing out
<http://wiki.darkpatterns.org/Bait_and_Switch> \- I think more people should
be aware of what types of apps and websites are just trying to get access to
their contacts and info. Even savvy users can occasionally get duped.

------
code_duck
The email trick is bad enough... What I'm starting to really dislike is
companies asking for email contacts, facebook access, and so on.

~~~
lurker19
Like when Hacker News instructs you to give Clickpass your entire addressbook
when you try to log in with Open ID.

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gallerytungsten
It seems there are a lot of sites like this, where there is absolutely no
information about what value they provide, just a demand that you sign up for
their spam list, sign in via Facebook, or some other privacy-deprecation
scheme.

No info? No demonstrated value? 86d.

------
LeonW
Love what you did there. Instead of bashing them to the ground you started off
by rationally dissecting their process and pointing out how they should
improve. Honestly, I think they should have paid you for this post! :)

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mootothemax
I don't understand - at which point did the blog author hand over his email
address? You can't get it from Facebook unless you specify a separate
permission that isn't shown in the accompanying screenshot.

~~~
philfreo
I gave them my email in the sign up process, but that's not what you should be
asking about. The issue is them emailing me _before_ I signed up. I don't know
exactly how they got it, but I am guessing it's that one of my friends
imported their email contacts which included my info and "made me a profile"

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alberttwong
really shitty of them to do this.

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cambriar
I honestly can't imagine feeling good about that kind of work.

"With great power comes great responsibility." \- Uncle Ben

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ams6110
Decoding business language 101: Whenever someone uses the the word "honestly"
they are lying.

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lhnz
Hmm, actually a pretty good idea, but their execution destroys the brand they
are creating.

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rezahazri
Wow a lead gen.. Did they ask for a telephone #?

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NHQ
Like Bait

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stefanobernardi
I think this is definitely "suable" behavior.

