
Robot Turtles Kickstarter midmortem at $250k - danshapiro
http://www.danshapiro.com/blog/2013/09/robot-turtles-midmortem-at-250k/#
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danshapiro
OP here - happy to answer any questions in the comments.

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leot
How sure are you about the negative impact of "early-bird". The purpose of it
is to create a sense of urgency in the first group of people who visit the
page, to make sure that the campaign takes off right away. Doesn't this
outweigh the "you're being ripped off" thing?

~~~
danshapiro
I have no data, but this Wikipedia article explains the theory:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring)

"Anchoring or focalism is a cognitive bias that describes the common human
tendency to rely too heavily on the first piece of information offered (the
"anchor") when making decisions. During decision making, anchoring occurs when
individuals use an initial piece of information to make subsequent judgments.
Once an anchor is set, other judgments are made by adjusting away from that
anchor, and there is a bias toward interpreting other information around the
anchor. For example, the initial price offered for a used car sets the
standard for the rest of the negotiations, so that prices lower than the
initial price seem more reasonable even if they are still higher than what the
car is really worth."

If you wanted to do an early bird special, one solution might be to add
something extra at the early bird tier (but keep the same price). Or even
charge $1 more for something that seemed to be worth >$1 more but was
unavailable otherwise. E.g. the early bird copies are signed.

~~~
leot
Hmm. Ok. I'm thinking there might be some strategies to mitigate the anchoring
effects, which definitely exist. It seems to me that it's a tradeoff, however,
and it's not obvious to me which circumstances lead to one or the other being
the best approach.

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larrys
Calling the post a "mid mortem" is catchy and it caught my attention.

But it's really more accurate to call it the less appealing "mid vita"?

I have to say though that my first reaction to "mid mortem" was "failure and
250k seems contradictory, what's going on here?"

~~~
danshapiro
The project will be terminated on September 27th, so I thought the name worked
:-)

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biznickman
I have to agree that I thought midmortem meant it was being shut down, less
than a day after I interviewed you! ;) Definitely a clever use of words but
mortem still feels like you were killing the project halfway through.

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gghh
Awesome game. Cannot wait I get my hand on a box and play with my 6yo nephew.

Question for OP: the game introduces kids to the imperative paradigm. As
somebody who's been exposed to Logo at the age of 6, I can tell I had an
awesome time moving the turtle around. But: do you, Dan, think that one can
build an equally compelling game based on the functional paradigm
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming)
, where you have no "side effects" and all you can do is create and compose
functions?

Stated otherwise: Turing Machines seems just fine to play with. Any idea on
how to make Lambda Calculus just as sexy for kids?

~~~
nimble
Instructions for playing this game in functional style are included, but you
need to order 25 copies of the game.

More seriously: I don't think the game is too biased towards imperative style
and would be useful foundation for any future language choice. Yes, it is
technically imperative, but those cards don't move the turtle as side-effects.
That's their primary effect. A stack of cards behaves much like a function.
Similarly to how concatenative languages
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concatenative_programming_langu...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concatenative_programming_language))
are usually viewed as functional rather than as imperative stack manipulation.

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bazzargh
Previous discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6398018](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6398018)

My comment there...

This seemed very familiar, then when I saw phrases in the Kickstarter like
"You are the computer and they get to order you around", the lightbulb went
on: [http://drtechniko.com/2012/04/09/how-to-train-your-
robot/](http://drtechniko.com/2012/04/09/how-to-train-your-robot/)

...it's a very similar game, for the same age group, except you order around
people in a room instead of turtles on a board. (Not knocking Robot Turtles.
There's room for both)

~~~
danshapiro
This is fantastic! Same basic idea, but with physical movement and exercise.
At least for the grownups.

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SamBoogie
This post is extremely helpful and the game looks awesome, I wonder if the
tactile experience of an actual board game may be more of an effective
teaching aid for young children. It will be interesting to see how kids take
to it when it is released.

My buddies and I have a project in the same space and are considering
Kickstarting too.

We are building a platform game that teaches programming through gameplay by
incorporating a terminal-like language we created called codePop.

If your interested check it out at www.betathegame.com

~~~
gsaines
Hi Sam, I've seen beta before and really like where its heading, can't wait to
try it out when there is a build! We are working on another learn to code game
and I'd love to chat with you about your experiences if you have the time. You
can reach me a gsaines at gmail dot com. Best of luck and I look forward to
hearing from you!

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gknoy
I think it was also brilliant to post this halfway through: I had forgotten
all about the kickstarter, and now I am a backer.

~~~
Shivetya
never heard of this kickstarter, went and grabbed an early Turtle.

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robomartin
> Contrary to what many people think, people don’t find new projects through
> Kickstarter

This is a major failing of KS and one that I simply cannot understand why they
don't fix. Project discovery is horrible.

I am mostly interested in technology projects. One look at the projects I've
supported makes this very obvious. Yet, for some unbelievable reasons I keep
getting these "what's new on Kickstarter" emails promoting art projects.
Sorry, I enjoy art but I have nearly zero interest in most arts projects on KS
(I did back one a long time ago).

This also means that I completely miss out on some projects unless I read
about them elsewhere or laboriously browse through KS to try and decipher
what's new. The second part is another failing.

The website is not designed for easy discovery. I couldn't care less about
their staff picks. They don't have enough people to cover the range of tastes
and interests out there. What I want to see are tools to list projects based
on various sorted criteria of my own choosing. "Popular this week" is also
horrible.

For example, I want to visit the site today and list technology projects in
chronological order with the newest project at the top of the list. Add a
layer to that and allow me to, perhaps, filter by keyword or some other
criteria. Let me discover what's new on my own.

Then, once I've created a search and sort criteria, let me subscribe to email
updates based on that criteria. eBay does this pretty well and, therefore,
promotes discovery without members having to actively spend hours browsing the
site every n days in order not to miss out on bargains.

There's also a missing layer when it comes to helping campaigns succeed. I've
seen campaign that failed but raised a fair amount of money. Because I never
learned of the project I did not have an opportunity to support it. I would
imagine this is the case for thousands of people who, like me, are too busy to
remember to check KS every Monday (or whatever). Their lack of discovery tools
damages project owners by not allowing them to reach the entire KS addressable
market for their project.

Further to that, KS is also failing at connecting the dots. If someone is
consistently supporting tech gizmos for photography it is likely that they'll
appreciate a quick email when someone posts a new project in that domain. This
would create instant traction for a lot of projects that are never discovered
until it is too late.

Anyhow, I enjoy Kickstarter but really can't understand why they don't seem
interested in doing a better job. I know they started it more as a destination
for art projects and that's what they try to promote. Well, like it or not,
they make most of their money off other kinds of project --mostly technology
from what I can see. Isn't it high time that they accept reality and make
major site improvements in order to reflect the patterns their audience
exhibits?

At some level there's a huge opportunity here to do this really well by
helping project originators reach an audience as well as supporters discover
that which they are interested in. Do this really well and people should flock
to the solution. From an entrepreneurial standpoint nothing is harder than
marketing and reaching an audience. KS is squandering the data they have and
forcing project originators to almost start from zero for every project,
despite the massive audience KS could reach with one email.

~~~
danshapiro
I wish for the same features you describe, both as a creator and backer. That
said, they have a very specific vision for their company and business, and
have decided _not_ to follow the money when it points them away from that
vision. Hats off to them for that.

~~~
tilsammans
That might be true, but their UX remains broken even for people who do support
their vision. I have backed plenty of quirky, art, or dance projects and I
love backing those people even for no reward. Kickstarter have all the data in
my profile. It would be quite possible for them to point me at non-commercial,
small-scale artists but they just don't do that. Instead the thing most close
to something useful is the Popular feed from the various categories. But it
takes a lot of clicking and is not very useful anyway. There are a lot of
projects I would have loved to back that reached the end date without me
knowing. Kickstarter are leaving money on the table, not just for them, but
for the artists they host as well and that's a pity.

~~~
robomartin
> Kickstarter are leaving money on the table, not just for them, but for the
> artists they host as well and that's a pity.

That's exactly my point. I have been working on a tech project that is
currently slated to go on KS. I find myself wondering if a site like indiegogo
might be a better idea. KS does not help with discovery. I don't have a huge
network. I woild prefer a service that actively informs it's userbase of
relevant projects based on their profile. This would have a multiplicative
effect on gathering supporters. I, too, have experienced coming upon a KS
project of great interest to me only to learn time had run out. Multiply this
by thousands of people and you have a situation that is far less than ideal
for project originators and backers alike.

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tokipin
interesting. i have an idea for a game that appears to be roughly in the same
spirit, though in my case the game is intended to be 'a puzzle game' that in a
sense just happens to involve basic programming. there are non-trivial and
interesting ways to get across various programming things... even very arcane
programming things

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dnautics
If any of the crowdtilt folks are reading this - think you could do a similar
analysis for nonprofits?

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jerogarcia
when i was a kid i remember playing something called Logo .. i think on C64
and it was a turtle that received instructions i don't remember well .. im
sure google has some more ..but im too lazy . champion

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3838
looks good, the thing i dread with higher sales is getting calculations wrong
and ending up thousands in the hole, but i guess there are ways round that :)

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danshapiro
I spent a lot of time before launching the Kickstarter figuring out a process
that would not get more expensive with volume! In short, I'm using a
commercial manufacturer who can handle very large quantities, and Amazon for
shipping.

~~~
3838
how are you using Amazon for shipping? i know they fulfill for people selling
via them, do they handle fulfillment for others?

~~~
danshapiro
Right - it's fulfillment by amazon, multichannel fulfillment. Regarding the
child article, I'm printing with a century-old company based in Michigan. I'll
be flying out to see the first ones come off the line. Doesn't guarantee
quality but it helps to keep an eye on it.

~~~
3838
i guess with a game it doesn't have to be all or nothing when it comes to
returns - i bought a game with missing cards once and the company had a woman
who's job was dealing with this scenario - basically asked me what was missing
and sent those cards out, plus a few more which may have screwed the game
slightly but much easier & cheaper than returning to a store or mailing to
amazon etc, i guess you've thought about this already :)

