
Closing a door - clessg
http://sarah.thesharps.us/2015/10/05/closing-a-door/
======
drewg123
Its not just women that are being put off. I'm a man, and when I worked for an
IHV, I dreaded every interaction with the Linux kernel community due to the
tone of the interactions. It was by far the most hostile community we engaged
with. I often submitted patches through either junior developers in our
company who were Linux enthusiasts, or through friends who were established in
the Linux community just to avoid dealing with the people on the subsystem
list.

By contrast the *BSD communities were far more helpful, as were the closed-
source MacOSX and Solaris driver/kernel mailing lists, as well as the private
interactions with folks from Apple and Sun.

~~~
zeveb
> By contrast the *BSD communities were far more helpful

I think I'd take Linux Torvald's criticism over Theo de Raadt's any day of the
week…

~~~
debacle
I'd be happy with a bit of criticism from either.

~~~
craftkiller
If Theo ever criticised my code I'd frame it and keep it at my desk!

~~~
Kristine1975
I'd prefer a cheque by Donald Knuth ;-)

------
nappy-doo
Sigh. Story time.

A long time ago (2006,7,8?) before Sarah took over USB development, I tried to
start getting fixes into the un-maintained USB stack. I submitted fixes for
leaks, segfaults, and general cleanup and documentation. At the time, the
"maintainer" was one of the most unhelpful, and ugly people I ever dealt with
over e-mail. After months of writing with the person over a simple leak he'd
introduced, I gave up, deciding to fix it on a branch, and publish our code
rather than deal with that developer. I vowed I'd never go back -- and I still
haven't.

I'm not saying all kernel developers are jerks, but I'm not interested in
working with those that are. As such, I'm just not willing to spend my time
trying to help. (And maybe some developers want to keep it that way. So, I
guess we're both happier for it.)

~~~
lolo_
This makes me wonder if this subsystem is a particular culprit for these
issues. It seems like it's pot luck as to how friendly one subsystem is in
comparison to another.

That's not to say something shouldn't be done here, but does tally with what
I've heard about this in the past.

~~~
digi_owl
Could be.

Sometimes it seems that a project or similar gets started by someone with
serious technical knowhow, but then as it heads more towards maintenance it
gets put up for grabs for anyone to take over.

At that point you get someone with more interest in the position than the tech
stepping in, and it all descends into hell.

------
lolo_
I have contributed some trivial commits (so far) and though I encountered some
harsh comments it was nothing I felt was overly personal. But of course, my
experience is pretty limited at this point.

I get the impression that the level of these issues varies wildly depending on
the subsystem in question. For example, Greg Kroah-Hartman is friendly and
helpful to a ridiculous degree, I literally don't understand how he gets so
much done and maintains helpfulness (and he's working on the staging drivers
with some of the roughest code in the entire kernel.)

I feel sorry that Sarah has had this happen, and it's sad that this could
happen to anyone, but in particular it's sad that it's happened to a woman
when we have such a massive under representation of women already in our
industry and probably even more so in the kernel.

I don't know what the answer is, but for those areas of the kernel that are a
problem a balance needs to be found between directness and talking to somebody
like a human being.

As for Linus, I think he gets somewhat misrepresented in many places. His
vitriol is reserved for senior kernel maintainers who should know better and
do things which (in many cases) could very negatively impact users, I've seen
a number of threads where he's been let's say, less than civil, which were all
about kernel code breaking user code and the subsystem maintainers saying
'well they're doing it wrong so let's just break their applications'. In those
kind of circumstances you're glad that Linus strongly objects.

~~~
JoshTriplett
> As for Linus, I think he gets somewhat misrepresented in many places. His
> vitriol is reserved for senior kernel maintainers who should know better and
> do things which (in many cases) could very negatively impact users

Which sure doesn't make the already thankless task of becoming a senior kernel
maintainer any more appealing.

And it creates a terrible culture where people see that and perpetuate it.

~~~
maxxxxx
Does Linus ever make mistakes and does he receive the same treatment?

~~~
qntm
Better question, does Linus ever say extremely nice, encouraging, generous
things and make the front page of HN for doing so?

~~~
reitanqild
> encouraging, generous

FWIW he created (one of?) the worlds most used OS kernels and shared it freely
sparking all kinds of projects and businesses.

As for the rudeness, I feel that is hugely overrated. Compare hime to someone
like the "developer evangelist" who got two developers fired because they said
something to each other that s/he didn't like and see what I mean.

Edit: comments welcome, I have enough points but I cannot learn what mistake I
made if nobody tells me.

~~~
morsch
I assume you're being downvoted because you're bringing up a highly
controversial issue which is, at best, tangentially related.

~~~
JoshTriplett
And doing so in a way that paints it in the most favorable possible light for
one position, in addition to using technical skill as a free pass for them
making personal attacks.

------
AdmiralAsshat
I'm pretty sure Sarah has confronted Linus over this exact issue in the past,
and he was pretty adamant that it would not change:

[http://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2013/07/linus-...](http://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2013/07/linus-torvalds-defends-his-right-to-shame-linux-kernel-
developers/)

So, there you go. This is what happens, and what will continue to happen, when
the leader defends that kind of behavior.

------
sssilver
Different teams have different cultures that work for them.

It's not impossible that the culture that alienates some people is the very
culture that enables the phenomenal engineering of the Linux kernel.

I personally would feel privileged to be a part of a group that puts
engineering excellence beyond anything, including my own hurt feelings. There
would be beauty for me in that emotional austerity and sheer directness.

That being said, I empathize with the author. If a team culture that delivers
doesn't work for someone, the best thing to do is to move on. Keep looking,
don't settle.

~~~
chasing
> I personally would feel privileged to be a part of a group that puts
> engineering excellence beyond anything, including my own hurt feelings.
> There would be beauty for me in that emotional austerity and sheer
> directness.

You should tolerate being part of a group that puts engineering excellence
above offering any kind of camaraderie or emotional support.

You should feel privileged to be a part of a group that achieves engineering
excellence while still being a bunch of cool and friendly people.

~~~
icebraining
Telling people how they should feel is not very nice either.

~~~
chasing
You shouldn't feel that way.

------
EwanToo
A sad post, but not an unexpected one given the tone on the kernel mailing
list - I'm sure many others have left without saying anything.

~~~
deelowe
I don't get it. Why are so many OK with the personal attacks, unprofessional
language, and generally toxic communications within the Linux kernel
development community? Is it because Linus himself is one of the worst?

While I appreciate the technical talent of the kernel devs, I have lost nearly
all respect for these developers. This issue needs to be resolved before it
gets worse.

~~~
venomsnake
> This issue needs to be resolved before it gets worse.

Is this an issue though? If the Linux Kernel project can get all the talent it
needs with current attitude, then there is no good reason to change.

If the culture delivers, let it be, just not join. I don't mind rough language
and hostility. And if I am greeted and cannot prove that I am meaner and more
hostile, just move on.

~~~
deelowe
> Is this an issue though?

Yes. It's a huge fucking issue. I think I speak for plenty of people when I
say that we don't want to be part of a culture that's known for bullying,
harassment, sexism, etc... That crap is the whole reason I got into computers
in the first place. It was a safe haven away from all the jocks and other very
similar BS in highschool. Yet here we are tolerating and in some cases even
celebrating similar actions within our own community.

This needs to change.

~~~
venomsnake
> Yes. It's a huge fucking issue. I think I speak for plenty of people when I
> say that we don't want to be part of a culture that's known for bullying,
> harassment, sexism, etc...

Participation is voluntary in open source. So no one forces you. But you are
not entitled to acceptance in any community. I on the other hand there are
people that like it the way it is.

You are totally free to fork the kernel into PC Linux with strictly enforced
rules and see if the talent will follow you.

> That crap is the whole reason I got into computers in the first place. It
> was a safe haven away from all the jocks and other very similar BS in
> highschool.

And here I think we get to the core of the problem. In flight or fight
situations some people have the flight option turned off and counterpunch on
any adversity, even if it stupid. They won't see a problem with the linux
kernel culture at all. But the flight only people - they will see.

------
chasing
There's a weird myth floating around that being honest, direct, or "real"
means being an asshole.

And there's another related myth that being an asshole is acceptable.

~~~
arbitrage
Sure. Nice strawman.

It's not a myth, however, that shouting, cursing, and attacking your coworkers
makes you an asshole.

~~~
zem
It's not a straw man. If you have never run into people who explicitly excuse
their asshole behaviour by saying they're just being "blunt" or "honest"
you're either lucky or unobservant.

~~~
JoshTriplett
> people who explicitly excuse their asshole behaviour by saying they're just
> being "blunt" or "honest"

You can find several such excuses on this page, even.

------
xixi77
She (and everyone here) talks about it being OK to criticize code but not OK
to offend people personally, which seems like a rather reasonable concept --
but does anyone have actual examples of the latter, to put everything in
context? I see [http://marc.info/?l=linux-
kernel&m=135628421403144&w=2](http://marc.info/?l=linux-
kernel&m=135628421403144&w=2) and [http://marc.info/?l=linux-
acpi&m=136157944603147&w=2](http://marc.info/?l=linux-
acpi&m=136157944603147&w=2) quoted, but to me it looks like both are about
code?

~~~
antirez
The content is about a bug, but the form is bad. You can effectively
communicate that the patch is bad and that the approach is to never break user
space without saying shut up, is crap, and without to be so verbal aggressive
IMHO.

~~~
amadvance
This seems the result of years of frustration telling the same thing again and
again.

Even the 2009 Alan Cox rant was about the 'never break userspace' issue:
[https://lkml.org/lkml/2009/7/28/373](https://lkml.org/lkml/2009/7/28/373)

For sure being rude doesn't seem to work ;)

------
droopybuns
This article helped me understand a frustration I have with millennials.

>>I feel powerless in a community that had a “Code of Conflict” without a
specific list of behaviors to avoid and a community with no teeth to enforce
it.

It never would have occurred to me that I was ever entitled to procedures for
handling conflict in a community. I have operated under the following rule for
community bullshit:

Endure it, fix it, or abandon it.

The fashionable "sad departure" missive just reeks of entitlement. Reading
these notes make me feel embarrassed for the author.

Younger people seem to be celebrating a style that whines about community. It
isn't leadership.

~~~
pron
> It never would have occurred to me that I was ever entitled to...

No one thinks they're entitled. They're just saying what they think is right.

> procedures for handling conflict in a community

You're missing the point. If the community was well-behaved procedure wouldn't
be necessary. It's not procedure she's asking for -- it's decent behavior --
and suggesting that perhaps procedure is a possible fix. If it isn't, we'll
try others.

> Endure it, fix it, or abandon it.

First she endured it (for about 8 years), then she tried to fix it ([1], [2]),
and now she's leaving. You've found a true successor.

> Younger people seem to be celebrating a style that whines about community

Tell that to Martin Luther.

Also, why use that word "whine"? Linus whines about a whole lot of stuff yet
no one calls him a whiner.

[1]: [http://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2013/07/linus-...](http://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2013/07/linus-torvalds-defends-his-right-to-shame-linux-kernel-
developers/)

[2]: [http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-07/22/sarah-
sharp](http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-07/22/sarah-sharp)

~~~
droopybuns
>>No one thinks they're entitled.

Said every entitled person everywhere. This also applies to people who talk
about privilege.

>>Also, why use that word "whine"?

Stylewise:

"Disappointment" demonstrates leadership. "Sad" demonstrates entitlement.

>>Linus [...]

I don't think anyone who leads people should defend Linus' behavior. He's an
asshole that has provided a powerful, free & useful kernel.

Until there is a better FOSS alternative to Linux, it makes sense to endure
him. But deciding to defend his behavior indicates a lack of compassion for
people's feelings.

~~~
vezzy-fnord
_Until there is a better FOSS alternative to Linux_

You mean there isn't?

------
matt_morgan
USB in Linux is really, really good. It didn't use to be. This is a big loss.

~~~
digi_owl
Not sure if it was Sharp directly that produced that, or if she more acted as
the representative of a larger USB team at Intel (somewhat ironic given that
Intel at the corporate level didn't seem interested at all in USB3 at first).

------
doomrobo
>What that means is they are privileging the emotional needs of other Linux
kernel developers (to release their frustrations on others, to be blunt, rude,
or curse to blow off steam) over my own emotional needs (the need to be
respected as a person, to not receive verbal or emotional abuse).

This seems to be imply that these people don't also have the need to be
respected. It's a choice to privilege everybody's need to blow off steam over
_everybody 's_ need to be respected. Not just hers.

~~~
intortus
Hence the sentence that you omitted:

> There’s an awful power dynamic there that favors the established maintainer
> over basic human decency.

In any project there will be emotional conflicts. That doesn't mean there
should be an overwhelming trend toward coddling incumbents. Not only is it
morally suspect, it's really bad for the health of the project.

------
mst
I do wish there was some separation in the description between abrasiveness
and sexism/homophobia - I've only ever really seen the former on lkml, and am
far more tolerant of it than the latter.

~~~
forgottenpass
_and am far more tolerant of it than the latter_

Which is why you see them addressed in the same breath so often. It brings in
the political capital of the latter, to gripe about the former.

------
reitanqild
I worked in a place where I'd be scolded once in a while when I did something
stupid and I enjoyed it[0] for a while as long as it was fair.

It quickly became annoying when it turned out the same people who criticised
others harshly swept their own mistakes under the rug ...

[0]: "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."

------
pron
Some background (found through simple Googling):

[http://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2013/07/linus-...](http://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2013/07/linus-torvalds-defends-his-right-to-shame-linux-kernel-
developers/)

[http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-07/22/sarah-
sharp](http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-07/22/sarah-sharp)

~~~
meapix
That finger is for Nvidia. There is a chinese proverb that say: "When the sage
points at the moon, the fool looks at the finger.".

Nvidia is the problem here, not the finger.

~~~
pron
And does the sage read the story (which, BTW, is about Sarah Sharp) that goes
with the picture of the finger or is he just on the lookout for moons? :)

------
tylerflint
> We are human. We make mistakes, and we correct them. We get frustrated with
> someone, we over-react, and then we apologize and try to work together
> towards a solution.

Wisdom.

------
nanodano
The Linux project has been around for a couple decades now. Has this attitude
been a trend from the very beginning, or is it something that formed over
time?

~~~
philliphaydon
Yes. Pretty much been that way for a long time.

------
adrianlmm
What I'd like to know is if she was disrespected in any way, cause despise the
Linus behavior, he only is that way with people he knows and with people he
has confidence.

so, was she disrespected or not?

------
nommm-nommm
Its easy to say "This is the way it is, tough cookies, deal with it. Grow a
thicker skin if you want to play."

It takes a bigger man (apologies for the sexism - can't think of a better
term) to put their head down and become a better person.

~~~
copsarebastards
You can't think of the word "person"?

~~~
nommm-nommm
Doesn't have the same effect/meaning.

"Term" was the wrong word - "Expression" is more of what I meant.

"Man up" doesn't have the same connotations as "person up." (For example)

~~~
copsarebastards
I agree on "man up" versus "person up", but "bigger person" has exactly the
same connotations as "bigger man".

To be clear here, I'm not offended by your statement. I think communicating
using common idioms which happen to contain a gender word isn't sexist, and
quibbling over gendered language like that just drives real sexism
underground. I'm talking about it purely from a writing perspective. Looking
at it more, I wouldn't have used either phrase, to be honest. I'd have gone
with something like "It's harder to admit you screwed up and become a better
person" (drop the euphemisms and draw a dichotomy between easy/hard).

------
bjornstjerne
I'm glad she was able to figure out that the team culture didn't fit her and
leave for something more suitable to her preferences. Different people are
different, and a single team cannot accommodate every style.

~~~
pron
So abuse and public humiliation is a style now? Well, if it is, her point is
that it's a bad style, a very bad style, and it would be best if it goes out
of fashion. Kinda like writing spaghetti code with lots of gotos. That, too,
is a style, but generally recognized as a bad one, even if some people like
it.

------
aerovistae
As a web developer (as in the world of JavaScript / Python / PHP / Ruby ), I
don't really know much about C or operating system stuff. So I have a total
noob question.

What goes into "maintaining" USB development? I mean, the USB ports have
worked for years, no? What is there to be done? To my naive ears this is like
hearing that someone is actively contributing to the technology behind light
switches. Can someone in the know describe what goes into this?

~~~
aerovistae
Andddd the only response is for someone to give me a downvote. Love it.

------
xname2
I don't get it.

If you don't like it, just leave, work with another team. It IS that simple.

BUT, don't simply say "xx turns women away", because not every woman is the
same.

------
JoelJacobson
[https://lwn.net/Articles/105375/](https://lwn.net/Articles/105375/) (Linus on
Kernel Mangement Style, 2004) If everyone would read this before getting
involved in the kernel project, hopefully those not compatible with the
culture would not get involved in the first place.

~~~
pzone
Do you understand that this whole article is designed to point out the major
losses from categorically excluding developers "not compatible with the
culture?"

------
Grue3
I was with her until

>I have the right to replace any comment I feel like with “fart fart fart
fart”.

Right after

>I would prefer the communication style within the Linux kernel community to
be more respectful.

Way to not practice what you preach.

~~~
zyxley
A policy of tolerance and respect does not require being tolerant and
respectful of intolerance and disrepect.

~~~
Grue3
And so, the vicious circle continues.

Did you not notice how the policy of replacing messages with farts is not
limited solely to intolerant and disrespectful ones? It's exactly the kind of
passive aggression that is typical amongst nerds, and the kind she was
seemingly railing against in the beginning of the rant.

~~~
chris_wot
If someone threatens to rape or kill her (which seems to happens to pretty
much every woman who works in tech who speaks out against sexism) then fart
noises is _mild_.

~~~
Grue3
Do you seriously suggest this as a reasonable reaction, rather than, say,
reporting it to the police?

~~~
chris_wot
If the police could take action to locate the one making the threats, then
reporting them is a reasonable option. But here's a thought: if you saw
graffiti on a wall you owned, then you could report it police AND paint over
the top of it with a fresh coat of paint.

Let's say you are a Jew, and the graffiti was spewing Neo-Nazi propaganda,
targeted at you. You would be justified, because the wall is your property, to
mock the perpetrators on your newly repainted wall. It's your wall - and you
are free to express yourself on your own property.

Sarah's "wall" is similarly her blog post. You can make offensive remarks, but
she is free to remove your offensive remarks and mock you in their place. And
at the same time collect evidence of threatening behaviour and report it to
the police.

Not sure why this is such a difficult concept...

------
osilas
一群素质低下的IT流氓

------
osilas
一群IT流氓！

------
acd
I think some developers need to go out and meet more people in person. There
is no need for a toxic communication style. Usually things are said much
harder to people on mailing lists than is said face to face.

Get out talk to people. People working isolated being an issue

------
zeveb
> I need communication that is technically brutal but personally respectful.

And sometimes being personally disrespectful yields better results. Which is,
after all, what one wants out of a software project: results, not happy
feelings.

I think we'd all like to be personally respected (I know I would). But I also
think that almost all of us have done things which aren't respectable (I know
I have); and I believe that at least for some people, the shame of public
disrespect is part of the learning experience involved in not doing it again.

If this atmosphere of harsh personal criticism does yield better results, then
it's necessary. I'm reminded of the old adage, 'if you can't stand the heat,
get out of the kitchen.' Heat is necessary to cook (a kitchen in summer is
miserable, particularly without air conditioning); interpersonal heat may be
necessary to produce better software.

I myself don't do so well in an atmosphere of intense personal criticism, and
have great difficulty giving it, but I consider those my own personality
flaws.

~~~
sssilver
Wouldn't it be better if we didn't downvote people _only_ because their
particular view doesn't click with ours?

It seems like otherwise we're just getting people to be defensive and more
inclined to keep their views to themselves rather than sharing and discussing
everything openly.

~~~
rodgerd
The poster said he supports a culture of personal abuse to produce positive
outcomes. Downvotes should be least he gets.

~~~
zeveb
I did not say that I support a culture of personal abuse; I wrote that given
the right conditions then personal disrespect can be appropriate.

You agree! You wrote, after all, 'downvotes should be the least he gets,'
which is to say that you disrespect what I wrote and feel I should be
silenced.

There's a difference between disrespect and abuse, just as there's a
difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Some people aren't worthy of
respect, but no-one should be abused.

