

Peter Shankman / HARO Just Sent Me a Cease-and-Desist Letter. What Now? - ryanwaggoner
http://ryanwaggoner.com/2010/02/peter-shankman-and-helpareporterout-haro-just-sent-me-a-cease-and-desist-letter/

======
wavesplash
Welcome to the wooly world of business my friend. You're threatening an
incumbent and he's lashing out. Peter has wrapped up his ego into HARO so
expect him to take it personally.

Legally there's very little HARO can do except force you to defend a meritless
case. I don't believe they have a leg to stand on. You're not violating
copyright, or trademark in any form, and he doesn't have an issued patent.

The one real takeaway is never launch a business and credit the competitor on
the site. It just gives them fuel to create legal hassles for you.

Next steps: Get a lawyer. Have your lawyer write a firm letter showing
Shankman's lawyer that their claims are meritless and you will vigorously
defend the case.

Meantime, this is a great PR coup for you. Tech blogs love a little drama, at
least certain ones do. Use it for the free PR.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. Though I have had to defend against bogus
patent and copyright claims before.

~~~
rwhitman
Yea putting a competitor's name in your materials is probably a bad idea,
unless you're Verizon...

I'd imagine its easier to stay under their radar if your site doesn't directly
come up in google alert results for their name too.

BUT, considering that the battle is over the PR business, journalists should
be eating this up! I bet a lot of startups wish they could get a high-profile
cease and desist hahaha

~~~
cookiecaper
For the record, Verizon got sued by AT&T for the commercials that made the
direct comparison. They just have the money and clout that they can afford to
be dragged through what both parties know is a meritless lawsuit.

~~~
jimbokun
I think the point is being sued worked out very well for Verizon, as it drew
more attention to their claims of having a superior network to AT&T. (As you
said, if they did not have the money and lawyers to dispute AT&T's claims it
may have been a different story.)

------
zachware
First, let's be honest, you set yourself up for this by referring to Shankman
and HARO. That was a mistake.

This is typical in a marketplace where people run out of innovative ideas (or
never had them in the first place.) I've been around the "sender" side of this
type of thing before. Honest truth, you might get outgunned by legal tactics
and that sucks.

You have a more innovative, more focused product. If you're bankrolled then
fight it. If not, tread lightly. Once you used his name you set this up.
Either way, they will keep sending ridiculous letters.

My advice: -Call an attorney, get some advice. -Setup a backup host and
confirm your DNS is separate from your hosting account. (Next up is a C&D to
your host) -Send an urgent appeal to everyone on your list, even journalists.
You might lose a few followers in the process but if people value your service
they will fight for you (particularly nice because your service helps
journalists.)

~~~
jimboyoungblood
Let's be honest, this is one of the most meritless C&D's ever.

Unless Shankman's lawyers are totally incompetent, there's no way they would
ever seriously pursue this, since it's obvious to anyone they have no case.

Personally, I would just drop all references to Shankman and HARO from the
website and politely send back an email letting them know you did so, and
politely point out that there's no legal basis for any of their other absurd
requests.

~~~
liquidcool
Perhaps I'm cynical, but I think that whether the lawyers pursue this has less
to do with competency and more to do with their client's willingness to pay
for their time. The client may take it personally and be willing to pay good
money to tilt at windmills.

~~~
Estragon
I thought lawyers faced fairly serious penalties for knowingly pursuing
obviously meritless cases.

~~~
dctoedt
Most of the time, a claim must be really egregious for a judge to actually
penalize the lawyer for bringing it. Legal ethics rules vary from state to
state, but they generally say, in effect, that a lawyer owes every client a
duty of zealous advocacy.

------
oliverkofoed
HARO is a good business for Peter Shankman, I just googled it and first link
says $800K/year around the start of 2009[1].

The point being that it's probably not so much about him not liking that you
mentioned him[2], as the fact that you're stepping onto his turf, and him
wanting to defend it.

[1] =
[http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/news/adweek_haro_is_800k...](http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/news/adweek_haro_is_800k_business_96405.asp)

[2] = You write: "I’m pretty disappointed that Peter decided to be such a
jackass about this. If he had bothered to write me an email, I would have
gladly removed his name and never mentioned this to anyone."

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Yeah, I know. It's just ridiculous, because he was (maybe still is?) the
upstart in this space a couple years ago when he started _a mailing list_ and
now he's throwing around C&D notices like he's this great innovator in the
space?

~~~
wavesplash
There's nothing wrong with the incumbent defending his turf.

I personally think HARO needs a kick in the arse, quality and innovation wise.

Bring it on.

~~~
shpxnvz
IMO there's something wrong with the incumbent defending his turf _this way_.
If they want to out-innovate or out-compete the guy, great, but I personally
find it hard to back a business who only aims to win by out-lawyering their
rivals.

------
contagionhealth
Interesting that Hacker News folks jumped to the qualitative ideas that boil
down to: 1\. Dude! You built something cool! He's after you! Cool! You might
lose it! Not cool. 2\. You need a lawyer.

My immediate response to the "What Now?" was do some research on this guy.
Five minutes of Google searching and Ryan is in a much better position knowing
who he's dealing with...

Note that knowing about Peter's past legal stuff doesn't change the options:
1\. Give up, give in. 2\. Stand up and fight. 3\. Get a lawyer and decide to
do 1 or 2.

That said, here are some links that may be of interest. Please note I have no
vested interest in either party - just was curious.

Wonder if I'll get a C&D too for sharing information: 1\. The lawyer
representing HARO, who's done some 9-11 related work:
<http://www.andersonkill.com/attorneysprofile.asp?id=5141> 2\. WIRED coverage:
<http://www.wired.com/epicenter/tag/help-a-reporter-out/> 3\. Past domain
arbitration for Peter's LLC:
<http://domain.adrforum.com/domains/decisions/1259290.htm> 4\. MediaBistro
coverage of a conflict between Shankman's LLC and a PR agency:
[http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/agencies/former_haro_pr_...](http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/agencies/former_haro_pr_agency_filing_lawsuit_against_company_131240.asp)

------
noonespecial
I read the pdf of the letter: It seems to me that they're using the mention of
Shankman's name to get it all started, and the strange New York law for scary
padding, but the bulk of their claim is copyright.

You need to look through _everything_ and see if there's any word for word
content on your site (user contributed or otherwise) that matches Shankman's
site.

My guess is that they'll cede the look and feel and New York business law
wackyness to create a sheen of compromise and then surprise you with some user
generated content that appears on both your sites identically and claim
copyright infringement.

The fog of how user generated stuff ends up on sites may confuse the court
enough for them to rule against you just because Shankman's site existed first
and theres "identical content". Hell, even his lawyer may not fully grok it.

If the evil runs deep, they'll plant such content themselves in the form of
submissions.

Of course, talk to a lawyer, yadayada, like you haven't already! Don't
underestimate them. This looks like a plan to take over your (obviously
better) site. I believe that they think they can win.

------
noelchurchill
Sounds like you're website is good enough to be a threat. Keep it up!

------
mattmaroon
Well, I know you're not going to like hearing this, but I'd first remove any
mention of his name. Then I'd contact an attorney immediately. HN and blog
readers are not sufficient sources of legal advice when facing a lawsuit.
(They're more harm than good even when you're not, and now that he's spent
legal fees you're not in Kansas anymore).

~~~
ryanwaggoner
I did both immediately.

~~~
mattmaroon
Glad to hear. I'd be really curious to hear what ends up happening if you're
able to share. Also what your attorney told you.

------
jrockway
How can you steal someone's ideas? If something is not copyrighted or
trademarked or covered by a private contract, you didn't steal anything.
(Right?)

~~~
shpxnvz
So far as I know ideas can't be stolen. Nor can they be protected as
intellectual property in the U.S., according to the USPTO:

"A patent cannot be obtained upon a mere idea or suggestion."

------
rapatapat
posting this problem seems like brilliant PR. to me, you seem pretty safe from
repercussion...and you might as well get some press for this. i mean, it was
only a matter of time 'til this idea gets spun into a web app. also, i heard
an interview with him on mixergy some weeks ago...and he seems like a prick.
he was rudely typing away & distracted while andrew warner, the interviewer,
was interviewing him. it was only until andrew starting asking him about
potential competition that he woke up (obviously self conscious that a better
web app can potentially steal his business from under him).

i think your app needs work. focus on that. once a better mouse trap comes
out, i think reporters would flock to it. he claims his success is about the
trust he's built with reporters. trust? he email blasts these requests with
full reporter contact info twice a day to millions of people via email! (well,
actually he finally started hiding reporter email with an anonymizer earlier
this year).

------
ryanwaggoner
Quick question: can I get in trouble for posting the actual letter online? I'd
like to get more people's thoughts on it.

~~~
alain94040
Not really.

Frivolous harrassment is always an option of course, sure. The advice I give
at the Founder Institute is to try not to needlessly annoy or upset the people
who are likely to sue you.

So while posting the letter would be fun, it would also make it more likely
that you get hit with legal fees. Your call.

------
retro
Does anyone have any advice on whether he should delete the blog post to avoid
any additional potential liability? I'm thinking about how Conan couldn't talk
about his contractual discussions with NBC and imagine something similar
applies in the case of legal action - but IANAL so I don't know.

Good luck with this, Ryan. This really sucks. FWIW, I thought your version was
a great approach when I read about it first and significantly distinct from
HARO.

------
hristov
If you are going to refer to your competitors in public you may want to have a
short (15 min) consultation with an IP lawyer.

There are issues that arise if you use other people's trademarks. But these
can be avoided if you use the proper disclaimers. So yeah speak to a lawyer.
Although, at this point it would probably be longer than a 15 minute
consultation.

------
jasonkester
The ironic thing about all this is that your application probably drove more
business to HARO than the other way around.

Personally, I'd never heard of HARO until you mentioned it. Since your site
was pretty much empty and I wanted to network with reporters, I went over and
signed up for HARO. In the end, they gained a user and you did not.

------
aresant
Using a direct competitors name without permission in a commercial
application, where it could be construed as an implied endorsement, is not a
good idea.

~~~
cj
An "about us" page is meant to be more informational than commercial, but I
understand your point.

------
jasonkester
Ideas by themself are worthless. It's execution that matters. It's the same
story that every one of us running a business faces every time a new
competitor shows up.

All this guy can do is hope that you don't execute as well as him.

------
earle
Once again a good example of "speak to an attorney before posting to Hacker
News"...

Regardless of what your opinions are here, you need to speak to an attorney
who can properly advise you before soapboxing.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
What makes you think I haven't?

~~~
wavesplash
The comment that asked "Quick question: can I get in trouble for posting this
letter online..." ;)

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1154198>

------
WillyF
Why don't you give Peter a call? I've met him before. He seemed like a nice
guy. See if you can resolve this thing without lawyers.

Btw, the name of his company makes this whole thing sound like a joke.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Seems a bit late for that, as he's already got his lawyers involved. There's
nothing to resolve, other than me just shutting the site down. If he had a
problem with me mentioning his name, he could have just emailed me and I would
have immediately removed it with no questions and never mentioned it to
anyone. The fact that he decided to skip that and just have his attorney try
and bully me into shutting down and giving him the domain tells me that he's
not interested in working anything out, just fighting competition in the most
cowardly way possible.

------
systems
I would like to just add that your site (PRManna) does kinda have the same
look and feel of Shankman's site (HARO). I don't believe this is a
coincidence. And its not like this look and feel is common.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Screenshots of PRManna running locally on my dev box on March 5th, 2009 (note
the TipJoy widget):

[http://img.skitch.com/20100227-bfr884xr63ffm3ducic3t2qq7r.jp...](http://img.skitch.com/20100227-bfr884xr63ffm3ducic3t2qq7r.jpg)

I have no idea when it changed (and I can't find a screenshot of how it was
before), but I submitted a request to HARO about six weeks ago and it looked
nothing like it does today, so at some point in the last couple months they
launched the current redesign.

EDIT: Until very recently, HARO looked like this (url says December 2009):

[http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.com/img/2009/12/1214haro.j...](http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.com/img/2009/12/1214haro.jpg)

Maybe I should sue them...perhaps they somehow saw my screenshots and decided
to copy them! :)

~~~
ErrantX
When did PRManna launch? If it was before the redesign of HARO I think you've
got him. Send a polite letter back saying:

your happy to (and have) remove references to HARO from PRManna

that a simple email indicating this was a problem would have been sufficient.
Express concern over the need for lawyers

that you believe the HARO redesign came _after_ PRManna design was created

indicate you feel the matter is now concluded happily for you

but that if they wish to continue to pursue "frivolous" claims you believe you
have the evidence required to obtain full damages from HARO due to the design
copyright infringement

that you will be happy to countersue

IANAL but that is what I would do. Throw the ball politely back into their
court - in the meantime, as a "just in case", speak to a lawyer a build a
case. If they reply back aggressively file the suit straight away. It will
probably scare him off. (as I said IANAL and I dont know much about this guy;
so it might not work).

I've employed a roughly similar tactic before against someone with a frivolous
claim who thought he could win by flexing muscles. When I filed against him
there was about a week of disbelieving silence when he realised I knew where I
stood legally. At which point it all stood down (I accepted an contract
between us in which he accepted I wasnt infringing on him as he had asserted
previously).

That's the last piece of advice: probably dont pursue the suit. Because if you
give him time to get his head straight then he has more cash to buy sneaky
lawyers and build a case. Accept any reasonable offer (preferably a contract
like I described because then he cant lick wounds for a month or so then come
back and hit you with big guns)

------
pkaler
How much traction do you have? You may want to consider shutting down the
current site and opening a new one without mentioning his name or company.
That's what the core of the issue seems to be.

------
ohashi
A good IP lawyer might help: I use <http://www.aplegal.com>, Stevan Lieberman
there knows what he's doing.

------
eli
I'd probably just toss the letter. If they persist, contact a lawyer.
California is one of the few states with a solid anti-SLAPP law, incidentally.

