
Brain abnormalities found in victims of US embassy attack in Cuba - random_moonwalk
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/06/us-embassy-attack-cuba-brain-abnormalities-victims
======
mccoyspace
This is such a fascinating (and disturbing) situation. And quite mysterious.
High frequency ultrasound is used routinely in medicine and has never been
shown to change brain tissue. Infrasound has some effect on tissue but its
probably overstated. (the infamous 'brown note' [1]. Other sonic weapons rely
on volume/amplitude. None of this seems to be the case here.

Another really interesting point is the description of the hyper localized
nature of the sound -- present in one part of the room and not another. Its
really hard to localize a sound signal, as anyone who has worked with
parabolic speakers can attest. Yes, there can be focal points, but the sound
definitely drifts out to the surrounding areas to a significant degree. One
example of hyperlocalized sound perception is Lamont Young's 'Dream House'
installation in NYC [2] Although not captured in video documentation, there
are distinct and significant microtonal shifts that are easily perceptible as
you move through the space caused by standing waves produced through the
interaction of the tone generators and the architecture. But this happens
within the context of a loud drone that fills the whole room. Not at all what
is described by the diplomats and family members.

I hope they can get to the bottom of this and I hope that more information is
made public.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_note](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_note)
[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC6bhnu5Luc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC6bhnu5Luc)

~~~
QAPereo
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_auditory_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_auditory_effect)

This is the best bet I've seen since this story broke.

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robg
Hey rootw0rm, all of your comments are autodead. Not sure what you did to
deserve it, but this comment is additive here. Contact the admin to have
rights restored.

~~~
pc86
Just go to the comment click "vouch" and it will go through.

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MsMowz
I think it's interesting that this was immediately framed as an "attack," with
of course the implication being that the Cuban government attacked American
diplomats, since Cuba has so much to lose from attacking diplomats and
literally nothing to gain.

~~~
GVIrish
Cuba has been a long time ally of Russia, and Russia has been aggressively
trying to reassert their power on the world stage.

The other thing is, that a large part of the spy game is that intelligence
agents often work out of embassies. The way the game is played is that as long
as intelligence personnel stay in their lane, there's no trouble. The US has
spies working out of embassies around the world, and foreign intelligence
services have spies working in embassies in DC.

But for an adversary like Russia, maybe they would try to attack people on
diplomatic passports if they knew there were some way to make it untraceable
or covert. Cuba might do the same if they felt they could thwart US spying.

Note that there was also an alleged incident like this at the US embassy in
Uzbekistan:

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5126383/US-
embassy-w...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5126383/US-embassy-
workers-Uzbekistan-targeted-sonic-attack.html)

State Dept. denies it, but if there is an intelligence angle to this, denials
would be standard.

~~~
mturmon
And it's worth mentioning the possibility that even though the current Cuban
leadership might not have allowed external entities to try this, elements
_within_ the government, or powerful elements within the society, might
benefit from a reversion to the previous status quo.

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eqmvii
This story is weird and getting weirder, but the important context is how
eclectic electronic surveillance is common at diplomatic facilities. It’s
possible if not probable that the injuries were a side effect of some other
weird electronic espionage effort, rather than the direct objective.

~~~
MengerSponge
I wonder if the injuries are consistent with the "microwave transmitter"
theory that's been floated.

~~~
dboreham
You'd think that anything involving non-ionizing EM radiation would produce
symptoms consistent with...cooking.

~~~
hwillis
It would be, although it can still be pretty weird. Damage can obviously occur
far below "cooking" temperature, and it would happen below the surface- in the
fattier part of the brain.

However you'd expect damage to the eyes first, since they have virtually no
blood flow and are extremely vulnerable to heating. I think its way more
likely that drugs are the cause of any negative effects, and while sound might
have been involved it's probably related to something else.

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dgut
While the media continues to spread bold claims and sensational articles
lacking any facts, a Cuban panel of scientists has concluded the diplomats
likely experienced a "collective psychogenic disorder". Stress can change the
ratio between white and grey matter in the brain. Currently, there exists only
one single publication of the report. [1]

I'd also expect the crowd at HN to be better educated than to jump to quick
and baseless conclusions. Almost all comments assert a form of attack
happened, acoustic and whatnot, despite the lack of details, the crowd's
inexpertise in the field, and doubting comments made by actual experts (see
Joseph Pompei, Jürgen Altmann). Speculating and guessing isn't very useful.

That said, I've visited Cuba and the respective areas (Atabey and Miramar)
where the diplomats usually reside and it's a mystery to me how anybody could
carry such an operation without anybody noticing any suspicious activity. The
area is inhabited by ordinary Cubans and houses tend to be relatively close to
each other. To get an idea here is an American diplomat holding a Yard sale
before leaving the country: [http://cdn.havanatimes.org/wp-
content/uploads/2017/10/Yard-s...](http://cdn.havanatimes.org/wp-
content/uploads/2017/10/Yard-sale-1.jpg)

[1] [http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/12/stressful-
conditions-...](http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/12/stressful-conditions-
not-sonic-weapon-sickened-us-diplomats-cuba-panel-asserts)

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ACEace
There's a longer version of this AP report that includes the below quotes. The
fact that there were cases of two people in a room where one heard the sound
and the other did not was something I had not seen mentioned before. It was a
question I had been curious about and would seem to indicate something
different going on - rather than an acoustic weapon unexplained by current
science that affects some people but not others.

> U.S. officials told the AP that investigators have now determined:

> — The most frequently reported sound patients heard was a high-pitched chirp
> or grating metal. Fewer recalled a low-pitched noise, like a hum.

> — Some were asleep and awakened by the sound, even as others sleeping in the
> same bed or room heard nothing.

> — Vibrations sometimes accompanied the sound. Victims told investigators
> these felt similar to the rapid flutter of air when windows of a car are
> partially rolled down.

> — Those worst off knew right away something was affecting their bodies. Some
> developed visual symptoms within 24 hours, including trouble focusing on a
> computer screen.

~~~
CapsAdmin
I still can't help but think all of this are sleep paralysis symptoms. Not
being able to focus on a screen sounds like they became drowsy by something?

I remember when I took alimemazine once I had severe sleep paralysis. I heard
a loud buzzing sound and the day after I felt extremely drowsy.

But in the end all we can do is speculate, which is fun I guess. Maybe all of
this is really nothing and they're just finding anomalies because they're
looking for them.

~~~
thomble
I too have experienced buzzing and grating sounds and vibrations during sleep
paralysis, or during a false awakening. It happened frequently in college when
my sleep schedule was broken.

I'm skeptical. Part of me thinks that this is mass hysteria.

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rdtsc
> As Cuba works to limit damage to its reputation and economy, its government
> has produced TV specials and an online summit about its own investigation.

I guess if is deliberate, it might be interesting to look who would benefit
from it? It hurts American diplomats but it also hurts Cuba's position. Would
stand to benefit from Cuba looking bad or from hurting the improved
relationship between Cuba and US.

There was talk of using something like a passive listening device, say
something embedded in the walls or furniture that's not powered but has to be
activated with a ultrasound beam. Something like The Thing
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_\(listening_device\))
but miniaturized?

~~~
kurthr
What's interesting is that we don't even know if this is a screw-up or
intentional (and it could be both since multiple parties are involved). It
really doesn't seem like an acoustic effect (as raised in the article) and may
well be a modulated microwave since that would correspond both to the locality
of the "noise" and brain effects. Or it could simply be very high powered.

[http://www.newsweek.com/russia-us-attack-cuba-
officials-6495...](http://www.newsweek.com/russia-us-attack-cuba-
officials-649546)

[http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/13/politics/cuba-us-diplomats-
aco...](http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/13/politics/cuba-us-diplomats-acoustic-
weapons/index.html)

I fully expect a barrage, but based on your question, cui bono... Russia needs
to keep the US separate from Cuba. They want the client state that provides a
physical base and influence in the US backyard. Why now is another question,
but perhaps because they thought they could get away with it now.

~~~
ImSkeptical
The problem with this analysis is: what does Russia gain by doing this with a
sonic mystery weapon? If Russia wanted to divide the US and Cuba by attacking
diplomats, wouldn't a sniper be simpler and less obvious? Or paying some Cuban
Nationals to physically attack diplomatic staff? Or just use of any known
weapon/tool.

~~~
Tyrek
Mystery weapons allow for all sorts of deniability. With snipers and stuff
there's always a pretty clear starting point for investigators to (attempt to)
trace back to the source. That's much harder with this mystery weapon. It's
possible that whoever is using has determined that keeping US/Cuba relations
frosty is high enough priority to use their 'secret' weapon.

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Chardok
Pure amateur speculation here, especially given the lack of facts, but I
wanted to bring up these two studies here on white matter changes.

[https://utdallas.edu/~sxv140030/Published/134.pdf](https://utdallas.edu/~sxv140030/Published/134.pdf)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3496540/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3496540/)

Could be possible an unknown infectious vector altering gene expression on the
central nervous system?

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EpicBlackCrayon
This story just gets weirder and weirder.

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wybiral
Could something like this alter human behavior? Maybe the goal wasn't to cause
damage or to attract this much attention but was instead meant to induce
erratic behavior or something.

(I'm venturing into tin-foil-hat-zone here because this article is really
lacking any facts or details about the incident)

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colanderman
Note that the AP claims to have a recording of the sound believed by some to
be the cause:
[https://apnews.com/88bb914f8b284088bce48e54f6736d84](https://apnews.com/88bb914f8b284088bce48e54f6736d84)

~~~
wyldfire
> A closer examination of one recording reveals it’s not just a single sound.
> Roughly 20 or more different frequencies, or pitches, are embedded in it,
> the AP discovered using a spectrum analyzer, which measures a signal’s
> frequency and amplitude.

Did anyone try decoding it? GMSK, FSK, BPSK, ASK?

~~~
seandougall
AP filtered—sorry, "enhanced"—it to remove background noise before posting it
to Youtube, where it's encoded with lossy compression. So if there was any
signal embedded in it, there's a decent chance it's been obliterated.

~~~
owebmaster
Sure. What a bad coincidence. But let's trust them, as it might be a weapon of
mass destruction /s

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alphabettsy
Russia or US intelligence looking to influence the US-Cuba relationship?

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d883kd8
Sounds like they were poisoned

~~~
hwillis
I think its ridiculous that this is being voted down. Heres the situation:

1\. Diplomats are experiencing weird physical symptoms.

2\. Diplomats are claiming to hear a noise.

Yeah, its suspicious, but there still isnt much tying the two together besides
the fact that they happen around the same time. Even if they are related,
thats still not a good reason to believe 2 is causing 1- its just as plausible
to believe there is some kind of surveillance causing the noise and a drug
related attack is also being carried out. IMO (and I have experience with high
frequency in-air sound) its far more likely than a sonic or EM attack causing
the symptoms, but it is _at least_ as plausible.

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cambaceres
Maybe CIA were testing their new weapon? Diplomats working in Cuba would be
the perfect subjects of those tests. CIA would be able to question the victims
about the experience and get access to medical records without raising
suspicions.

~~~
pfarnsworth
That's absurd. Why would they target diplomats when they could use criminals
in foreign countries, or Guantanamo Bay detainees? Why use useful diplomats?

~~~
cambaceres
Because that is the only way to be able to interview the subjects about how
they experienced it without raising suspicions.

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pfarnsworth
That's a really weak answer. It's more absurd than logical. You can interview
criminals and prisoners just as easily.

