
Apple’s iMac Pro is a love letter to developers - LearnerHerzog
https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/14/apples-imac-pro-is-a-love-letter-to-developers/
======
chaostheory
The cheese grater style Mac Pros were the best for developers. Still hasn't
changed. They were reasonably priced, good looking boxes that you can open and
upgrade. We don't care about compactness unless it's a laptop. Key feature is
that we can open the box and there's room to add and change stuff inside.
Otherwise it's not really 'Pro'. This is even more relevant when you have
horsepower hungry stuff like VR.

It's only a matter of time before Win 10 Unix features mature, and it makes me
migrate back to Windows.

~~~
j2bax
I think you paint pro's with a pretty wide brush. Pro developers or IT people,
sure... Pro animators, designers, architects, engineers? I think many pro's
just want their system to be fast, run their software and complete their tasks
efficiently. Nice form factor is probably even a benefit to a lot of them,
more than the ability to swap parts.

~~~
chaostheory
No, I feel that you may have misread my comment. I'm specifically referring to
developers and only developers.

> designers, architects. Nice form factor is probably even a benefit to a lot
> of them, more than the ability to swap parts.

You're right. These are the professions that need a lot of physical space for
whom the slim form factors makes sense. I just vaguely remember Phil Schiller
saying that the new machines will better cater to developers.

~~~
j2bax
Sorry about that. Upon re-reading I see that you did specify developers. I
will add that most of the developers I work with don't like to mess around
with their work computer much... I'm sure at home they like to customize and
do their own thing but I doubt that's a specific market Apple is trying to
cater directly to.

~~~
chaostheory
Yeah that makes sense for developers who clock in and out for a large
conglomerate. It's not the same for devs who work for a startup.

~~~
anko
I'm really interested in what you're doing in a startup that needs all that
power locally.

For me, I would probably be happy with a 2 core macbook but I use a 4 core
macbook pro. If I'm doing something that needs a lot of compute, it's in the
cloud.

~~~
chaostheory
I use the usual resource hogs like full blown IDEs, multiple electron apps, a
million browser windows, server instances, and more; with occasional heavy
processing or regular integration tests.

Yes I can offload stuff to the cloud. I just don't want to, just like you're
happier with a laptop as opposed to a desktop. I don't want to deal with
issues like latency and configuration or more importantly constantly thinking
about whether or not I have enough resources to run something locally. There's
enough things in my life that I have to budget.

~~~
cglace
You need more than 64GB for your IDE and electron apps?

I have a 16GB macbook pro and I run two different IDE's, firefox with about
20-30 tabs, Eagle, and various other programs. I rarely run into swapping
problems.

~~~
chaostheory
> You need more than 64GB for your IDE and electron apps?

"with occasional heavy processing" Yes.

Besides why would you want a powerful machine frozen in amber when it's not a
laptop?

~~~
cglace
It really depends on what your workload is. I would assume for most people 64
GB is going to be more than enough for the next 5 years.

For me the real concern is with the GPU. As soon as apple comes out with a
32GB macbook pro I'll probably upgrade and just attach an eGPU to it.

~~~
chaostheory
> For me the real concern is with the GPU.

This is actually my main concern as well which is atleast addressed with a
solution. Upgrading SSDs is the other but I don't like using Thunderbolt.

I really want to stay with Mac OS, but Apple just makes it harder and harder
with every year while Windows is getting a little better at the same time
under Nadella.

------
chb
"Love letter to developers"?! If Apple wants to send me a love letter, they
can tell their design team to put 32gb of RAM into a MacBook Pro that has an
upgradeable drive, expandable memory and a reasonable configuration of ports.

~~~
Sheepsteak
I remember hearing the lack of a 32GB option was due to the chipset or
something.

~~~
mort96
Even then, who chose the chipset?

~~~
rsynnott
Intel. Currently, if you want to use low power RAM with an Intel mobile chip,
you have to use LP-DDR3 in a config that maxes out at 16GB. You can also use
non-LP DDR4 up to 32GB (Dell makes a laptop that does, for instance), but at
that point you have a somewhat increased power draw when the system is
running, and a _dramatically_ increased power draw on standby (IIRC about five
times the power). Apple laptops have traditionally had excellent standby
battery life; they're presumably not willing to sacrifice this.

Upcoming Intel mobile chips will resolve this, allowing use of LP-DDR4.

~~~
mort96
I'm looking at this Intel CPU:
[https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/processors/...](https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/processors/core/i7-processors/i7-7660u.html)

That claims to support up to 32GB memory, and it claims to support, among
other things, LPDDR3-1866. Are you saying that if you want to use LPDDR3-1866
with that CPU, you're limited to only 16GB? I can't find anything about that
through some quick googling, but if it's true, I retract my snarky comment.

~~~
rsynnott
Note "(dependent on memory type)". It can do LPDDR3, and it can do 32GB, but
not both at once. You'll note that any laptops which do 32GB will list DDR4
RAM.

~~~
mort96
How about this beefier mobile CPU, which supports up to 64GB RAM? Maybe they'd
have needed to make some of their pro laptops a bit less thin, but they are
_Pro_ laptops after all.
[https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/processors/...](https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/processors/core/i7-processors/i7-7920hq.html)

Also, I wish Intel would just list the maximum supported memory configuration
for each memory type, instead of just having a worthless "(depending on memory
type)".

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eptcyka
With the upper limit of 128 gigabytes, it's definitely a love letter to people
who want to use slack.

~~~
prodevmentor
Haha, that made me literally laugh out loud!

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themgt
My mid-2010 Mac Pro tower is still my favorite machine, probably favorite I've
ever owned. The form and function are basically perfect. It's built like a
workman's tool and that's what it is.

Update that with current year components and shut up and take my money.

~~~
SomeHacker44
I would love this with M.2 (or U.2) SSDs and modern CPUs/Chipsets. Don't even
need Xeons. Really would rather not have Xeons and their associated cost, if
I'm being frank.

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sschueller
I don't think so

This machine is for designers and creative people.

A beefy Mac mini or powerful MacBook is what I need without a ridiculously
high price tag.

Price wouldn't be such an issue if the thing was at all upgradable.

~~~
Analemma_
The GPU might be overkill for developers (unless they're doing game dev or
machine learning), but don't scoff at big core counts and fast disk I/O - they
help a lot. And while it might not be strictly _necessary_ , that 5K screen
sure is nice and obviates a lot of the need for a second monitor. I think a
convincing case could be made for developers to splurge on this.

~~~
FussyZeus
Since making the jump to a 4K display, I've really felt my urge to have a
second monitor drop off hard. UHD solves the problem and removes the display
gap.

~~~
azhenley
Since moving to a single 34 inch ultrawide monitor, my biggest complaint is
the window management. Two displays make this easy: fullscreen each one
(Windows has shortcuts for this builtin). But with one monitor I have to
manage the windows myself (I've tried 3rd party apps, they never seem to work
nicely).

Did you not have this problem?

~~~
merb
on mac/windows you can buy divvy. that app is just awesome for window
management.

~~~
evanrelf
Divvy is good but these days I'd recommend Magnet
([https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/magnet/id441258766?mt=12](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/magnet/id441258766?mt=12)).
They've had an 80% discount forever, so it's basically just the price ($0.99).
It's pretty polished, and lets you assign keyboard shortcuts.

~~~
merb
well I use both divy and magnet. divy is better for more fine grained window
management especially on 4k, whereas magnet is great for general placement a
la windows

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zacsme
I would say the ThinkPad 25 is much more of a love letter to developers.

~~~
phaus
Didn't they take one of their standard, woefully underpowered 14" business
class laptops, change almost nothing aside from the keyboard, and then call it
a special edition?

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Chaebixi
> Apple’s iMac Pro is a love letter to developers

What BS. Isn't it literally an _apology letter_?

Apple: "Sorry we neglected and ignored you, but to make it up we didn't really
listen to you, but got you a nice dinner of our favorite stuff (thinspo
industrial design). Please don't leave us."

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rsynnott
If this was so, they'd provide a config option with a cheap GPU and less
storage (or alternatively provide a Xeon option for the ordinary iMac).
Many/most developers don't need a $600 GPU or 1TB of super-fast storage, but
do want the extra core count.

IIRC they used to do this with the tower Mac Pros; the base option had a
cheapish graphics card. Base model price went up dramatically with the
trashcan, which made high-end GPUs mandatory.

------
shane999
* wealthy developers.

At home I have a 32GB 1800x system with a 2GB/s NVME drive and a 1080ti. I
chose Nvidia after years of AMD use due to performance. Of course I use it for
gaming as well. At work I have a Dell XPS 15 and we've been buying those or
P-series Lenovo's for the devs there.

The new iMac is $6300CAD. There's no way I'm buying it for myself or my devs.

The iOS devs at work get Macbook Pros and prefer the portable nature of them.
The UX team get those as well - for the same reason. Plus we'd never fork out
that much money for a single machine.

Maybe people who work with 4k video or VFX and need OSX would go for these.

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caio1982
At 5k dollars (plus taxes!) this must be the most expensive love letter ever
written.

~~~
MrFoof
Actually, the starting price is $4599, not the $4999 Apple originally said.

Even then, compared to buying an equivalent workstation hardware (including a
5K display) from a manufacturer such as HP, this is no more expensive.

~~~
thesmallestcat
At least you'd be able to adjust the height of that display.

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FLGMwt
I mean. I guess not all love letters need to be reciprocated so I'll save my
nits on the headline.

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PeterisP
The device seems impressive, but the price is even more so.

I'd probably chose one only if I can get someone else (e.g. an employer) to
pay for it; otherwise the same money can buy a combination of a much cheaper
computer + a nice overseas vacation trip, and that'd be better.

------
lancewiggs
It might pay to revisit these negative comments in a few months time.

The iMac Pro is beautiful, and ridiculously powerful. I am back to the days of
wanting to be able to justify the absurd price (that's what power costs)
simply to have that icon on my desk.

I would not be surprised to see a lot of these turn up on senior executive
desks, or as a status symbol from companies to their developers - showing that
nothing but the best will do.

Retina iMacs are amazing - I'm currently using a maxed out iMac from 2 years
ago, with a 4K screen plugged in too. It was impossible to justify the cost at
the time, but now I cannot imagine anything less.

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olivermarks
I used to do a lot of 300dpi print design work and paid apple and adobe a lot
of money for hardware and DVD's of software in the early part of this century.

I currently use an old mac with the last disc based iteration of Adobe
Creative Suite - something I suspect a lot of designers are still using - on
the rare occasions I need to sit down and create.

I'm wondering about the Apple pro lines and who might use a non upgradable,
closed piece of expensive hardware going forward. It feels to me as though
that market is shrinking unless they get serious about 'pro' meaning
industrial strength and configurable

~~~
chipotle_coyote
I imagine the iMac Pro will be a great machine for a lot of video/animation
professionals, and at least some developers, even though I'm not sure I'd call
this a "love letter" to them. It's a very powerful machine with an amazing
display that takes up very little space.

And, yeah, I _do_ think Apple has in recent years been seriously
underestimating the value of internal expandability, but I also think critics
may _overestimate_ that value to some degree. A lot of people really do buy
whole new computers every four to six years; I'm not convinced "but this one
is a _really expensive_ computer!" is a definitive rebuttal in the iMac Pro's
case. It seems like it'd be pretty easy to put together an iMac Pro that's
going to last you past that six-year limit--and, let's face it, if you're in
the market for a computer that could easily top $7K in a midrange
configuration, you're probably at an income level where doing that again in
six or seven years isn't going to kill you.

And, of course: we have yet to see what the 2018 Mac Pro is going to be like;
the signs are that it's going to be closer to what people who don't like the
closed box of the iMac would want.

(My biggest kvetch about the iMac Pro is that it seems kind of petty not to
have user upgradeable RAM. Maybe there's a design reason for that, but it just
feels like awfully low-hanging fruit, given that the "non-pro" 27" iMacs allow
this.)

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mcrider
I'm just excited to see the full-width bluetooth keyboard with numpad.
Unfortunately it doesn't look like you can order it on its own in spacegray
color (call me vain but it looks fantastic!)

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mainliningfbs
If you mainly work in one place, the current Mac Pro is great for developers.
I still travel with it but it is to another house where I have a monitor and
keyboard setup.

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zwetan
Here my answer: I'm cheating on you and still have no regrets.

ps: my last year hackintosh build with 64GB RAM for < 5K is not impressed by
those 128GB RAM

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fixi
Love letter? Hmm, that annoying glossy display?

I hope they will fix the new macbook pro, that would be a love letter!

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1_2__4
I love Macs and I love desktop computers (I'm old). I have a maxed-out
2013-era iMac. I'll piss away money on the stupidest things, but this is just
insane. I can't possibly wrap my head around spending that much money for an
all-in-one computer in 2017. It's like Apple wants to pretend it's still 2012.

~~~
FBISurveillance
I've recently spotted new Dell/HP with 4k displays and small bezels and those
look great and have 32Gb of RAM. My top-of-the-line MacBook Pro '17 screen is
noticeably worse and it has only 16Gb of RAM. I know that there's no LPDDR4
support yet -but- that's developer machine. With Docker, Terminal, cmake and
all those things it barely lives for 2 hours on battery anyways, so I might as
well just have a more powerful portable machine.

But the best thing is definitely the 4K screen on those HP/Dells: With the
default scaled resolution that Apple introduced last year things look
pixelated, while on 4K they don't. For a person who spends 12+ hours a day in
front of laptop screen that's huge.

Maybe colors are not that saturated but I don't care if my VSCode theme
displays 1 billion colors more. Neither iMac Pro nor MacBooks are developer
machines anymore. Creative professionals -- yes, but not developers.

