
Give Snowden his due: He made a surveillance debate possible - dllthomas
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-nsa-leaks-snowden-20130731,0,4611758.story
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jstalin
We should more than give him his due. We should throw him a frickin ticker-
tape parade.

~~~
staunch
I'll settle for a pardon.

~~~
dllthomas
Under the current administration, I'm hoping we even get any sort of
meaningful response to the pardon petition
([https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-
snow...](https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-
snowden/Dp03vGYD)).

I'm holding out a tiny glimmer of hope that Obama comes to his senses enough
to pardon for the domestic pieces. It doesn't seem likely, but doesn't seem to
directly contradict what he's said, and maybe Obama can pre-emptively
compromise with _me_ for once...

~~~
lukifer
The deadline's approaching. My money is on "We are unable to comment on an
ongoing investigation."

~~~
dllthomas
That does seem most likely, and I would not count it as meaningful. They've
also said before that they don't comment on individual pardons, though I can't
think of a good reason for that.

In this case, though, the pardon itself would be a substantial piece of
policy. I think it would be disingenuous and disrespectful of the
administration to refuse comment.

I expect to be disrespected, but hold out some small amount of hope that they
will surprise me.

------
bparsons
Today was disheartening.

The Guardian writes an expose on what should be the greatest political scandal
of our lifetime- the fact that low level contractors and government employees
can access all of our chat history, emails and browsing history.

The response? No one on social media is really discussing it, CNN America only
has a passing mention of it on their front page (buried near the bottom) and
America goes on with its day.

What does it take to get American's outraged about something?

~~~
frenchy
> What does it take to get American's outraged about something?

sex

~~~
conanbatt
When this story brokeout, i had the idea that the best way to publicize this
is to find an example of a private sexual conversation on record, which they
obviously have. Would have been interesting for Snowden to get one of those
just in case.

That, or an inside trading potential example.

Money or sex is something everyone understands.

------
md224
NSA response to today's revelations:
[http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/press_room/2013/30_July_2013....](http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/press_room/2013/30_July_2013.shtml)

~~~
northwest
Neat.

> Defending Our Nation. Securing Our Future.

...I read that as...

Defending Our Own Money. Securing Our Own Power.

~~~
readme
NSA surveillance foiled this potential terrorist and he is now incarcerated:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najibullah_Zazi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najibullah_Zazi)

He was going to bomb NYC subways.

Please, if you're going to participate in this so called "surveillance
debate", stick to facts and refrain from hyperbole.

~~~
samstave
If you're going to participate in the "surveillance debate" don't be so
stupidly myopic to argue only the ridiculous point that this keeps anyone safe
from "terrorists".

If the NSA can literally look into any electronic conversation between anyone,
then why haven't they stopped a single drug cartel? Any premeditated murder?
Why hasn't a single banister been brought to justice over their internal
emails detailing deliberate mortgage fraud? Why weren't they able to prove
Bernie Madoff was swindling billions for years and there were many warnings?
What about all the illegal insider trading of pretty much every congress
person?

Oh that's right, because this system has absolutely nothing to do with
bringing criminals to "justice" or keeping you safe.

This is digital enslavement and every single person who approves of this
bullshit is complicit.

Trying to say that trillions of dollars in stolen money from people (if the
funds taken from taxes are used to build a digital prison around you, those
funds were stolen from you) to prevent some singular supposed attack is
justified is farking insane!

~~~
andrewfong
The reason the NSA hasn't gone after anyone else is that it would probably be
illegal to -- not that the program in general is legal, but it would be more
blatantly illegal than simply focusing on groups affiliated with al-Qaeda.

The AUMF and constitutional case law give the executive branch a fair amount
of discretion when it comes to national security. It's pretty hard to shoehorn
drug cartels, bankers, and your run-of-the-mill murderers under national
security. As such, prosecuting those folks using NSA-gathered evidence would
force the NSA to reveal more about the program than it's comfortable doing.

~~~
samstave
I'm pretty sure you e missed my point. I also think you fail to understand
what is really going on here.

------
lvs
The obsessive discussion about phone records is such an obvious straw man.
Phone records are just the tip of the iceberg. It's all the other
communications surveillance that we should be talking about. They'd be happy
to give up phone record dragnets because they know that's not a useful
repository of information anyway.

------
SeanDav
Well well, a couple of people are starting to wake up. I was nearly despairing
that the impact of what Snowden was saying would be lost in the snowstorm the
government was trying to create to obscure his message by attacking the man.

It seems the message is getting through, and that is a great thing.

------
l33tbro
Surveillance "debate"? I must have missed something.

~~~
soganess
In modern parlance the word debate is used place of "dialog" or
"conversation", even if there is little actual debating going on.

------
lechevalierd3on
We are winning but nothing is done and nothing will be done. The whistle
blower won't be pardoned, and in a few month nobody will care about it. I so
deeply wish that this is going to hurt at some point certain businesses so
that some big player might use the little influence they may have to change
things.

------
tn13
Someone should suggest to the American public that this mass surveillance is a
big threat to sports and will somehow kill Baseball and Football (the one
played with hand) in the country.

------
tn13
"I need to reduce your freedom to keep you safe", no one can argue with that.

------
northwest
Also: What does everybody expect from "the debate"?

 _Is_ there a way we can get out of this mess? I currently don't see any,
besides the one with massive loss.

Please, anybody, correct me.

~~~
dllthomas
Call me naive, but I would be surprised to learn that these systems are being
used to overtly control the electoral process. So the way out of this mess is
to talk to your friends and family and make sure they understand the issues
and what is at stake, and make sure they do the same. Elect politicians who
will do better - Obama promised and didn't deliver, but the issue only seemed
to matter to a sliver of what were basically his base anyway. In the wake of
an election with this issue more front-and-center, because the people have
demanded the issue remain more front-and-center, I'm not convinced you'll see
the same behavior.

~~~
ihsw
The electoral process has already been subverted through gerrymandering and a
two-party system. All the good, honest, hard-working folks get stuck together
with the parasites and psychopaths. In either party there is a very wide range
of people from salt-of-the-earth types to scum-of-the-earth.

If you don't utilize gerrymandering then you lose, and if you're campaigning
in a third-party then you lose.

~~~
dllthomas
But that's not anything _new_ , and there's not any reason to expect that
subversion to prevent fixing _these_ issues, and fundamentally _if enough
people are convinced, things will change_ \- "enough" is higher than it
probably should be, but I'm not convinced it's higher than it would need to be
for a successful revolution or the like.

