

Jobless MBAs Seek Solace in Support Groups - cwan
http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/content/dec2009/bs20091221_484129.htm

======
edw519
_Students are banding together to help each other more than ever before as
they navigate one of the most dismal MBA job markets in years._

Dismal or corrective?

The high MBA entry level salaries of just a few years ago never really made
sense to me and I have a feeling we may never see them again. These people
don't bring much technical or domain-specfic expertise to the table. Just a
lot of theory that is becoming increasingly suspect.

The most important thing I ever learned from a business professor when I
earned my MBA was, "A degree in business is a degree in nothing." Sadly a lot
of recent MBAs are now learning this, their most important lesson.

~~~
Brushfire
I'm always amused when I read comments like this, becuase they are so
blatantly incorrect. I'm not sure where you got your MBA from, but I can tell
you the following about my class:

\- At least 1/3 already have an advanced degree in another subject. (Masters
or PhD) Many of these are in engineering, sciences, psychology, medicine, etc.

\- At least 95% have worked for at least 3 years, most of them have lead a
team.

So these two items provide them with technical, domain-specific, and
experiential knowledge upon which to use in bschool.

I dont think many MBA's would argue with you about the content of the degree;
it is very different from a masters in computer science or physics. But it is
also not intended to be the same.

One gets an MBA for 3 reasons: Networking, Skill Building, and Career
Switching. Most degrees focus on just the skill-building aspect. Personally,
for me, coming to a top ranked program and access to its huge alumni network
was critical to my decision.

Please, before you knee jerk respond about how stupid all MBA's are, it might
make sense to think about why so many smart, talented people continue to get
them.

~~~
loganfrederick
1\. "Skill-building" is suspect in many MBA programs. The fact that one-third
of your MBA class has advanced degrees doesn't say anything about the content
of the MBA itself, just that you're at a top program attracting other smart
people with skills.

2\. If "most degrees" focus on skill-building, and those skills are suspect,
it's then pretty fair to say that "most degrees" are of questionable value.

3\. That leaves us with Networking and Career Switching. Career Switching is
more a personal endeavor that an MBA can help with but doesn't necessarily
guarantee a successful switch.

4\. I would conclude then that the most important part of the MBA is the
networking, and this value is proportional to the quality of the program's
alumni.

~~~
Brushfire
Why is the skill-building suspect? What part of the content do you find so
worthless?

At least provide some examples or references to go along with your comment.

B

~~~
loganfrederick
*All my examples are from my own experiences.

I currently attend the Ohio State University. While not bad, the most valuable
of the MBA classes are those that are case study or project based. The pure
textbook classes on accounting, finance, HR, etc. are valuable, but no more
valuable than reading books on the subject without paying the tuition fee.

While I believe in the case-study method, it's not significantly different
than if an engineer-turned-MBA simply started his own firm.

The difference between the MBA programs (generally, there are exceptions in
areas like finance, logistics/operations, and MAcc for accounting) and Masters
in other scientific fields is that in Masters of Science, you're further
improving your skills in the field.

Many of the MBAs I know are either non-business people taking the opportunity
to learn important business skills that could be learned from experience or
former business students learning an incremental amount of knowledge for
massive tuition fees.

~~~
Brushfire
Thanks. Its interesting to hear other perspectives.

I'm at University of Chicago. There are pretty much 3 types of classes here,
Case-based, Tool-Based, or Labs. Very few of the professors use textbooks at
all, if they do they are purely for reference, not for primary use.

Having owned 2 businesses before school, I think you are right that some
lessons can be learned through experience. However, this is an asset during
discussion because we have a variety of people with a variety of backgrounds
adding their experiential knowledge into the discussions - so the value
derived is higher than just experiencing it yourself. For example, I have no
experience with retail operations or with industrial manufacturing, but some
of the lessons they learned the hard way might be useful to me later on as a
software startup guy, and some of the lessons I learned during my companies
might be useful to them down the road.

The other benefit of University of Chicago is that the MBA program does not
have a fixed curriculum, so students craft their own program of study (there
are some guidelines), and they can choose to study deep in one area (for
example, Econometrics or Analytical Finance) or for those with less business
experience to go more broad.

------
timwiseman
In many other fields (Math, CS, Physics, History, Etc) college students are
willing to major and even get advanced degrees because they love the field
first, worrying about the job they will get only secondarily.

But I doubt that describes a large number of MBA students. Given that the
primary purpose of that degree is to get a high paying job and it seems to
have little secondary value beyond that, I would suspect there will be a lot
fewer MBA students ove the next couple of years.

~~~
Brushfire
I cant speak about other schools, but where I'm currently attending, the
students get honestly excited about economic theory, buying behavior, business
valuation models, forecasting algorithms, and most importantly - new venture
ideas.

There are the career-only people, but their populations are shrinking.

~~~
anigbrowl
So why are they pursuing an MBA rather than an economics degree, do you think?

I don't think the study of business administration lacks value, and I have
room for the idea of management as a science. Much of the popular cynicism
about MBAs stems from the fact that some who pursue that qualification do so
in the belief that they can manage effectively a venture effectively without
necessarily knowing or caring much about the underlying competency (whether
that be making cars or publishing books). Such people are unpleasant to work
for to the extent that they have no particular vocation in that field and
treat junior employees as interchangeable components, no different from the
machinery that they operate.

In the worst case, productivity improves but at the expense of
depersonalization for customers and a feeling of dehumanization for employees.
Take bookstores. I love small independent and used bookstores - it's not the
most efficient way to buy a book, but it is good for discovering books I might
not otherwise have read. If I know what I want (and _don't_ want a social
shopping experience), I'm more likely to buy at Amazon. I can't stand large
stores like Borders etc. - they have lots of books, but none of the people who
work there seem particularly knowledgeable about or even interested in books.
Indeed, conversations with ex-employees of such stores suggest that a love of
books is seen as a liability, because buying decisions are not made at the
store level, so literary enthusiasm is seen by corporate as dangerously close
to letting the cooks eat with the customers.

~~~
Brushfire
The biggest problem related to MBA is the title. Very little about the MBA is
about 'Business Administration' anymore. To base your ideas about MBA's on
this is both outdated and lacking.

The modern MBA is about combining economics, psychology, math, statistics with
finance and strategy. It is not about 'efficiency' or 'productivity' alone,
those are just a small part of any business equation.

Much of the popular cynicism about MBA's come from anecdotal references to the
MBA jerk who people had a poor experiences with, and certainly isn't based on
any real data that I have seen. As I posted in an earlier comment, most people
in my MBA class have particular industry and technical experience to draw on,
and I doubt most would characterize a business in the fashion you described.

My main point is, if you are going to hate, hate the person, not the degree.
The degree didnt make the person who they are. Both intelligent and ridiculous
MBA's exist, just like any other career or degree path.

~~~
timwiseman
_My main point is, if you are going to hate, hate the person, not the degree.
The degree didnt make the person who they are. Both intelligent and ridiculous
MBA's exist, just like any other career or degree path._

True enough, but that is getting off the original topic. Most people who study
math do so because they love math. Of course they think about the practicality
of getting a job after graduating, but that is a secondary concern.

With MBAs, the reverse is true. Some may study it for the love of the subject,
but I doubt this is a large percentage. Most study it because they think they
can get a high paying (or at least secure) job after graduating.

This is not a condemnation of either path, but it is a statement about their
motivations.

------
scottw
For many this will be their first real-world test of their MBA skills: how do
we market and sell something that provides little value to the customer?

