
Microsoft 4-day week boosts productivity and sales - eanthy
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50287391
======
pgt
Duplicate?
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21433710](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21433710)

The aha comment that made me realise why this probably won't take off by
@claudeganon [^1]:

> "The whole arrangement is about control, preventing workers from having the
> time or energy to build competing enterprises, develop skills beyond a
> certain level, or organize against their employers. It’s the same reason why
> most big corps oppose a national healthcare system in the US: it keeps
> people locked in to their current positions and has the knock-on effect of
> putting downward pressure on wages and turnover expenses."
    
    
      [^1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21434297

~~~
MuffinFlavored
> It’s the same reason why most big corps oppose a national healthcare system
> in the US: it keeps people locked in to their current positions and has the
> knock-on effect of putting downward pressure on wages and turnover expenses.

Is this... true?

~~~
me_me_me
One thing that has always came true throughout my life is a phrase: "If you
don't know why, its money."

Why there is no national healthcare - money, someone makes a ton of it by
preventing nationalization of healthcare system.

Everything that doesn't make sense, has better alternatives (somehow not
adopted) always boils down to money :(

~~~
ChrisLomont
>Why there is no national healthcare - money, someone makes a ton of it by
preventing nationalization of healthcare system

It could also be that things cost money, and taxpayers don't want to pay for
some things.

The Democrats have decided that the rich must pay for it. Republicans have
decided that it's too costly. By splitting the crowd, we have reached an
impasse.

We could do what every other country has done, and have everyone pay more in
taxes to get it, but both sets of votes have blocked it. Dems want European
benefits without European taxes levied on the middle class. Reps realize how
much these plans will cost and scare people with taxes in general. The end
result is people want others to solve their problems instead of accepting the
pain and paying for it.

It's not companies - it's voters. And it would cost a lot more in the US than
anywhere else, and it's no single point of cost added - every part here cost
more, from doctor and nurse salaries, to drugs (which are a small part of
overall cost), to people wanting more end of life care, and on and on.

~~~
redblacktree
I'd consider myself a Democrat, and I'm willing to pay more taxes for it. If
people take a good look at their paychecks, I think most folks would be better
off. Instead of paying (made up numbers) $800/mo to an insurer, you may pay an
additional $600/mo in taxes. That's a win. And like someone above said, it
makes people less tied to their jobs, which I think all workers should
support.

~~~
chrshawkes
Just curiously asking, how does one pay for it if they don't have a job or
lose their job? I think people should be less tied to their employers but how
do they get coverage if they have no job? Who is paying for it?

~~~
Gwypaas
Because it's paid by taxes, everyone has access and since it is taxes it is %
of income. No income means access to healthcare but there's no cost associated
to it. A median wage essentially pays their own health care, a high wage
subsidizes lower income.

As someone living in a country with this what this means in the end is that I
have never in my life considered health care as an issue. I.e. having a job
living at my parents house, moving away and studying and so on.

------
notus
> In contrast, Jack Ma, co-founder of Chinese online shopping giant Alibaba,
> has championed 12-hour working days. In April 2019, he described the "996"
> pattern, in which workers do 09:00-21:00 shifts, six days a week, as "a
> blessing".

Yikes, that sounds depressing.

> A report commissioned by the Labour Party in the UK suggested a four-day
> working week would be "unrealistic".

The report seems to be missing the point of most 4 day work week initiatives
which is that we spend a ton of time not actually working because people feel
like they are expected to always be in the office between arbitrary hours.
Just because people "work" less doesn't mean their output is changing. Unless
your definition of work is warming a chair.

~~~
devy
> Yikes, that sounds depressing.

Perhaps - but more depressing is losing a high paying job and earning a
minimum wage with no hope of living a comfortably life, in that local context.
Taken it out of context makes it further apart from the true meaning.

Success has no shortcuts - it requires 100k+ hours of hard working and
perseverance. Working leisurely is for the folks that are already prosper
(read: take a look at Microsoft employees' avg. salaries.)

Working less and living a good life? No, you can't have it both ways, unless
you're already rich.

~~~
notus
> Success has no shortcuts - it requires 100k+ hours of hard working and
> perseverance. Working leisurely is for the folks that are already prosper
> (read: take a look at Microsoft employees' avg. salaries.)

Working leisurely is for companies that have a culture that encourages it and
nothing more.

I don't consider myself rich (although this is kind of a relative
measurement), but I definitely work leisurely and make enough money to buy a
house, car, etc.

I also took a lot of shortcuts, like dropping out of college. People CAN and
DO have it both ways without already being rich and that should be the
standard for society going forward. We should always strive to improve the
experience of workers.

------
outside1234
I hate to burst the bubble here, but everyone I know at Microsoft Japan is
still working at least a 5-day week.

It's just that they don't come into the office on the 5th day.

This is actually probably the key result from this experiment. Working at home
that 5th day, allows workers, especially in Japan, where people feel a huge
obligation to just hold down a chair even if there isn't work to be done, to
work flexibly in a manner that works for them.

~~~
whichquestion
I’ve been working from home on Fridays at my current job for awhile now. I’m
finding I’m vastly more productive on the days I work from home. That might be
because I don’t have to commute, people aren’t bothering me, or whatever.

Even if they are still working the 5th day from home, it’s still a better
trade off than having to be in the office 5 days per week.

That being said, 4 day work weeks would be great and I’m sure people would be
just as productive, if not more so, as they are now.

------
bumby
I'm a big fan of non-traditional work schedules but I think it takes strong
leadership to implement well.

At one company, I noticed Fridays were probably the least productive day as
people would take breakfast breaks immediately upon showing up, extra long
lunch breaks etc. Everybody was itching for the weekend. When they moved to 4
day work weeks, that same mentality just shifted to Thursday. Leadership
wasn't good about holding people accountable and then suffered enormous
backlash at the mere idea of moving back to a 5 day workweek to help meet the
mission goals.

I guess the moral is to ensure there are at least good management practices in
place. Shorter workweeks aren't necessarily a productivity panacea.

------
PragmaticPulp
They only tested a 4-day workweek for 4 weeks.

I was part of a similar test at a previous employer. We switched to a 4-day
workweek for a few months. We were warned that management would be watching
our productivity closely during the trial period.

You _bet_ we worked incredibly hard during that trial period. Everyone was
working long hours to get everything done early. Ironically, some people even
worked Saturdays during the trial period. No one wanted to be the person who
fell behind and ruined the four day workweek trial period for everyone else.

Employees are smart. If their management says they can have an extra 52 days
off each year if they nail productivity during a 4-week trial period, of
course they're going to be ultra productive for those 4 weeks.

~~~
ghaff
In fact, although it's not super-common, some US companies have official
"summer hours" where they maintain a nominal 40-hour week but Friday is a
half-day or off entirely (maybe every second week). TBH, part of the theory is
that a lot of people take short days on Friday anyway, especially in areas
where a lot of people want to beat the weekend traffic to the
beach/coast/mountains.

And if it's going to tend to happen informally anyway, it's probably fairer to
make it an official policy for everyone.

That said, I personally mostly lean towards more vacation days I can take
together rather than every week being shorter.

------
agentultra
I'm not surprised. The only empirical evidence we have for a practice that
increases productivity and reduces errors, across all forms of knowledge-based
work, is _sleep_ and low stress.

As I understand it the only reason we have a 5-day, 8-hour work week is
because North American rail workers' labor unions struck for it. Because
workers, over tired, were losing limbs and dying on the job. It's not because
it's the optimal work week for managing teams of knowledge workers.

What I am surprised by is how long it has taken the MBAs and suits to realize
this.

~~~
sedatk
Wasn’t it Amalgamated Clothing Workers Union of America?

~~~
agentultra
It was long fought for and many parties were involved. I'm a little light in
reading on the subject but [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-
hour_day#United_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-
hour_day#United_States) seems fairly thorough.

------
Timberwolf
Something I've noticed about the culture of "work through midnight if that's
what it takes" is how much work gets thrown away. I worked at a few places
with this culture (startup and established), and it seemed entirely normal for
something to be the most urgent thing ever at 9pm and then, "actually, we've
decided to approach it differently" the next morning.

I think this is because the impact of an error of commission is low. The worst
that happens is people work a bit later, and since they're always working
later... well, it's fine to build things that don't need building and have
meetings about things that aren't happening. Nobody worries about wasting time
because it's just pushing work into a buffer that is treated as infinite. But
with limited incentive to select high-value work, it's easy to fall into a
trap of working 12+ hour days entirely on low-value stuff.

"Go home on time" cultures are forced to prioritise to be effective. If you
know you're going to shut down the laptop with tasks unfinished, you have to
make a choice on which tasks you're willing to accept not getting done today.
In this situation there is a significant impact of an error of commission,
because it means something more important not getting done. IME this results
in higher-value work overall, because the organisational instinct tends toward
scrutinising _everything_ to see if it's worth doing, not just the things
which will take you past 5pm.

I've not been fortunate enough to work somewhere with a 4 day week, only
places with generous working hours, but my feeling is it would be a further
improvement on this. (Especially since with more free time, people are not
going to assign such a high importance to doing their finances, keeping track
of Reddit, daydreaming about DIY or any of the other thousands of things
people in long-hours cultures do on company time).

------
nhumrich
While I really appreciate the conclusion and goals of the study, I wonder how
accurate this test really is. Imagine your boss told you, "we are going to
test out 4 hour work weeks". You are naturally going to be productive during
the entire experiment because you want to keep the 4 day week. If left as a
permanent perk for longer than a year, does productivity slink back down below
the 5 day?

~~~
transitionnel
Great question. No study is going to answer this sufficiently. But, remember
history. The generation that goes through war remembers that hell and
appreciates the following peace because they know the contrast. The following
generations generally don't have this anchor. It makes intuitive sense when
it's framed in basic mammal psychology, which is how we tend to act, despite
attempts to ascribe higher meaning.

There's no reason to rely on imperfectly controlled-for studies when we can
generally predict a compounding chain of essentially true things.

Furthermore, less work is more freedom and is preferable, whatever the
rationalization of the era is.

We'll probably all be better off when we see tenacious belief in "work ethic"
as Stockholm Syndrome's cousin, and realize we're still getting things done
because we _want_ to be creative and useful.

------
raphaelj
I've been working 4d/week for the past 2 years as a software engineer, and it
would be very hard for me to go back to a full time position.

I'm pretty sure I'm making more right now compared to how much I was when
working full time.

I explain this by having had more time to become a better engineer, as I've
been able to spend time on side projects (learning new things), distancing
myself from my professional duties (thus avoiding unnecessary/inefficient
work), and recovering better during the weekends. Exercising more probably
helped a lot too.

Overall, I deeply think that more small tech companies should start offering
4d/week positions, as it will make them able to compete against bigger
companies that can offer bigger compensations. Most of the best programmers I
know would happily trade a 15% net income reduction for an additional day off.
This is also reflected by how popular such articles get on Hacker News or
Reddit.

As a side note, part time work for white-collar positions is already very
common in the Netherlands[1], and the country if one of the richest in the
world.

\---

[1] [https://www.economist.com/the-economist-
explains/2015/05/11/...](https://www.economist.com/the-economist-
explains/2015/05/11/why-so-many-dutch-people-work-part-time)

~~~
therealdrag0
There's a sub-set of engineers who would provide serious value (to employers)
by having regular 20% freetime to work on what they wanted.

I sorta "steal" (do without asking permission) 10% of time to work on what I
want (stuff not PM sanctioned bugs/features), and not only is it GREAT for
mental health, it often turns out to be greatly appreciated by others at work.
There's always stuff that many people wish for but never gets prioritized. Or
just me cross-training myself in other languages and frameworks so I can
support a larger set of code-bases also provides a lot of value.

But not everyone works like this. Many people just take any extra slack they
can get and use it to chill. :shrug:

------
adelHBN
This is a partial copy of my previous post re reduced work hours: A German
startup that develops websites, apps and e-commerce platforms (Rheingans
Digital Enabler), has a five-hour day work policy. Employees come to work at
8am (apparently 8am is not even strictly enforced) and leave at 1pm.
Apparently productivity is kept up by cutting out the fat - cell phones are
turned off, company emails are checked only twice a day and meetings are kept
to 15 mins. The company was profitable in 2018, its first full year in
business. A San Diego startup (Tower Paddle Boards) experimented with five-
hour workdays and after two years limited it to the summer months only. This
is all reported in the WSJ.

------
McWobbleston
I think an important point to consider in this discussion for the US is that
when you look at GDP / productivity growth since the 70s alongside median
wages, there's been a large steady growth in our output despite mostly
stagnant wages. At this point a 4 day week rightly should be the norm, because
if we're not going to be compensated for the growth we create we should be
getting our time back.

------
abledon
Anyone working at MSFT know if the work hours vary according to your country?
e.g. If you are in the US, do you punch in at 9 and go home at 5? how about
Europe? If you transfer offices from Seattle USA, to say, London UK, do you
suddenly get more vacation days due to EU standards?

I hear Japan has cultural practices where workers are supposed to remain in
the office until the boss goes home. Was it like this at MSFT before they
tried the 4-day a week experiment? Or were they doing a Westernized 9-5 gig?
Which in that case, would probably already be viewed as a 'dream' lifestyle to
normal overworked Japanese citizens.

~~~
sedatk
You don’t punch anything in MSFT US. Work hours are completely flexible. You
just have to meet the deadlines and show up to the meetings.

~~~
ChuckNorris89
Interesting. In some European countries time tracking for employee working
hours(punching in) is mandatory by law for positions with flexible working
hours for insurance purposes.

IE: Did you sprain your ankle/fall off your bike during work hours or private
time? If it was during work time then it's a working accident and you get all
necessary treatment and long term recovery paid by the insurance. If it's
during private time then it's on you and your insurance covers standard
treatment but some lengthy recovery and physiotherapy costs may come out of
your pocket.

~~~
C1sc0cat
Salaried ones? or low level office jobs like a clerk.

~~~
ChuckNorris89
All of them.

------
ewhanley
It’s somewhat common in oil companies to offer salaried employees a 9/80
schedule. The employee works 80 hours in 9 days and gets every other Friday
off. Typically people are split into A and B crews so half the office is in on
any given Friday. I enjoyed this scheme for two reasons: 1) every other
weekend being three days long is magical and 2) even on your Fridays on, you
can usually work meeting-free since half the office is out.

------
sramam
> The technology giant said it was planning to implement a second Work Life
> Choice Challenge this winter but would not be offering the same "special
> leave".

Given the benefits to the organization, wonder why the repeat experiment will
not have the "special leave" benefit.

------
jedicode
I'm interested in hearing from business owners.

For those of you who own businesses with employees -- how do you feel about
4-day work weeks? Would it be practical for your own companies?

------
agent86
I think it is good for Microsoft and others to begin experimenting with
changing the default work arrangement. This may give them a significant
advantage moving forward.

By 2030 all "baby boomers" will be older than 65. These people will need to be
cared for on a scale that we have never encountered before.

Companies will need to find a way to continue to conduct business while the
workforce contends with caring for the aging population. Work-at-Home, Flex
Schedule, and 4 Day Weeks and other things that are currently seen as perks
can all become part of a core solution to that problem. Companies can
essentially beta the potential solutions as a perk today.

I wouldn't be surprised to see elder care benefits start to appear in company
benefit packages as well. Currently parental/birth benefits are a
distinguishing factor in HR circles and gaining traction. I expect elder care
benefits to take a similar course as caring for the aging population increases
in burden.

------
greggman2
I'm all for less work mostly but where is the medium. If they had done 3 days
a week would their productivity jump another 25%? Two days a week? One? I'll
bet at zero they have infinite productivity?

For me often my day is just busy. Update that library, write test, ask for
review, start updating deps for if/when review passes. review passed. put in
CI queue. Made through que. Submit deps version bump for review. Review
approved, add to CI. Oh oh something broke. repeat. Entire days are just busy
work. Working less hours would not remove the busy work or make it more
productive. Maybe it's a bad workflow.

In any case yes , would love to work less hours but still questioning where
the optimum is. Why 4 days? Why 8hrs? Why not 2 days for 2hrs etc... Is 4 only
special in relation to 5? Is it 4 on 3 off or would 2 on 1 of 2 on 2 off be
better? Or On Off On Off On Off Off. Is 6hrs better? 4? 10?

------
femto113
I'd love to see them do an experiment that compressed hours per day instead of
days per week. I used to do consulting around the world for an American
software company and Japan is the only place where I saw people straight up
fall asleep in meetings. When I asked my hosts about this phenomenon they
thought for awhile and then attributed it to a culture of "presence", which
was basically a layered phenomenon of trying to be in the office before
(and/or stay later than) other workers in your hierarchy. Seems this was a
more obvious thing to measure than productivity since your boss notices
precisely when you come in or leave. Tack on long commute times and pretty
soon the workday has expanded to the point where getting enough sleep is
physically impossible.

------
macspoofing
Very skeptical about these kinds of studies that claim great productivity
gains by cutting work hours by significant amounts. What is the cut-off point
here? Why not make it a 3-day week and get even more productivity gains?
Obviously, there are diminishing returns, what are they?

And how do they differ per industry? I can tell you right now, the vast
majority of jobs do require the current hourly investment (and then some). Are
there industries that would see productivity gains from a 6-day or 7-day
workweek (not that we want to change to that schedule - but it's worth a
contrast)? Many businesses will pay out over time even though it means paying
out 1.5x or 2x or even 2.5x base pay - they aren't stupid. Clearly, there is
SOME benefit.

------
archielc
Reminds me of another post (3 hours but everyday) by indie app developer with
a good discussion on HN:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11277033](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11277033)

------
madduci
I would please a 4days/8hrs instead of 5 days, but keeping the same pay.

The situation is still a win/win for the employer, since my increased
productivity makes more profits and therefore salaries can be kept equal (or
increased, if sales go up)

------
Bhilai
I'd rather have a concept where some hours of the day or some day(s) of the
week are considered "no meeting hours/day." I feel we waste a huge of amount
of time meeting with "stakeholders" trying to get consensus and establish
"sync" and deliver "status." I purposefully blow some meetings off and ask for
meeting notes instead of sitting 30mins/hour long meetings. May be its just me
but I strongly feel there needs to be less meetings. I have started to block
my calendar two-three hours everyday that I use to auto reject meetings, turn
of slack and focus on deep work.

------
longtom
Extrapolating from my laziness, people will get used to 4 days and
productivity will drop eventually. People presumably only work harder to
achieve the change they want to see, namely fewer workdays.

------
hiromichinomata
Japan Microsoft * 2018/06 => 2019/06 Sales +32% * Operational profit & profit
ratio is worse y by y. 2018/06 => 2019/06: -26%

Selling products by low price is meaningless. Productivity should be measured
by profit per employee, not sales per employee.

[https://gurafu.net/jpn/microsoft-jpn](https://gurafu.net/jpn/microsoft-jpn)

------
FillardMillmore
Somewhat tangential, but I've been waiting for one of the Democratic
candidates for President to bring up the 4-day work week as an campaign issue
and extol the benefits of such a proposal. Labor unions and Democrats have
achieved rights for workers in the past similar to the '4-day work week', so
why not push for it? I legitimately don't know - is it because corporate
lobbyists would frown upon it? Assuredly though, such a proposal would have
bipartisan support among voters.

~~~
C1sc0cat
A minimum statutory holiday allowance might be easier to sell than a 4 day
week.

It would also boost internal tourism so would have that advantage as well

------
bluesign
"During the month-long trial, electricity consumption had been reduced by 23%
and paper printing by 59% compared with August 2018, Microsoft said."

Oh I think MS didn't say that. [1]

Paper and electricity was compared to August 2016, as far as I can see from
the image.

Actually they look like on the trend line.

[1]
[https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1189857355908833280/Pz8s9574?...](https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1189857355908833280/Pz8s9574?format=jpg&name=600x314)

------
rectang
Upstart companies can compete with such employers by offering workplace
flexibility. They can score deals on highly qualified personnel for whom 40
hour workweeks are not feasible.

I'm helping out aging parents. I can do that, _and_ keep my skills up, _and_
have a life, if I work 4 days a week or less. That's what I negotiated at my
last gig — but it was with a great small company and not one of the typical
major employers where 40 hour workweeks are a baseline requirement.

------
HunOL
Probably because I have no children and I am not weekend-traveler but I really
don't get why some people are so excited about 4 days week. My utilization of
hours during weekends is horrible. What I find attractive is idea of working
less hours during normal week. Having one more hour at the end of the day
sounds way better for me. Moreover from productivity perspective I believe
it's better too because nobody is working 8 hours with maximum productivity.

------
RubberShoes
I have found working from home just one day every two weeks or so relieves me
of a ton of stress and greatly helps the rest of the working days in a week.
It’s not about working one less day but giving me the freedom to relax and
work in my own environment.

------
kwhitefoot
We tried a three day week in the UK, 1974, during the oil crisis.

I vaguely remember seeing articles, that I now cannot find, that claimed that
the forty percent reduction in days worked resulted in much less than a forty
percent reduction in production.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
There was a decent BBC documentary about this fairly recently. From memory the
40% reduction in working hours caused low single digit drop in productivity.
Wouldn't be surprised to find if it were repeated without all the personal
impacts that the three day week brought to find productivity rise markedly.

Here's a government pdf on productivity. The three day week doesn't stand out
on any of the graphs, it's just lost in the regular variation.

[https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06...](https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06492/SN06492.pdf)

------
anoplus
I think what if this kind of post will be get more upvotes? I believe
companies will eventually move down the shorter work week path when they find
its actually productive. I believe 4-day week companies will attract great
talents.

------
hogFeast
This is partly a function of Japan. They have rock-bottom productivity, and
very long working days. It is very difficult to actually stop employees
working 12-hour days there so knocking off a day makes perfect sense.

------
doboyy
8 days per week. 5 days of work. The calendar has been conspiring against us.

------
abj
If offered 4 days a week (8 hours/4 days) it sounds like a lot of people would
join a new company. I would jump in a heartbeat.

Why aren't smaller startups already using this tactic to lure away "talent"?

------
devenops
The part I don't get is they tried this experiment, claim phenomenal results
and then just went back to doing the usual? If it worked so well wouldn't you
keep doing it?

------
troxwalt
I would love a four day work week, but I don't think my child's daycare would
be up for that. It's hard enough getting my child picked up by closing time as
it is.

~~~
chrshawkes
provides new opportunities for daycares that will.

------
dariot
Maybe I'm wrong but I have the feeling that the increment in productivity is
due more to the restrictions in meetings' length than the 4-days weeks per se.

------
doener
Previous post:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21440241](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21440241)

------
tootahe45
If this was viable for the bottom line, all businesses will be doing it. Idk
what the point of these feel-good posts are every year.

~~~
__turbobrew__
In my experience most companies don't even measure worker performance metrics
so how can they even make a rational decision to improve their bottom line?
Many companies can tell you how much money they saved by implementing an open
office plan and squishing more people into a smaller area, but very few can
tell you the cost of having more disruptions, more noise, more context
switches, and less privacy. Companies are very good at optimizing their costs
(open office, hiring temp contractors, curing budgets), but many companies do
a poor job optimizing for worker performance.

------
hindsightbias
It would be nice if HN could tag commenters with ceo, mgr, lead, worker titles
to see the distribution of support.

------
b34r
Honestly I’d rather have this over unlimited vacation.

------
_hn_throw_away
(This is a duplicate of a story posted this past weekend. I want to copy my
comment from it for greater visibility.)

Fuck everything about 5 day work weeks.

I'll gladly switch to any job that offers a 4 day work week. It's one of the
best perks.

As someone with ADHD, work days are entirely spent getting work done. There
isn't any extra slack or allotment for personal tasks. They're 100% owned by
the employer.

Weekends offer barely enough time to catch up with chores. There isn't enough
time both to catch up and still have fun. I use vacation time to catch up on
chores, so that's spent too.

I don't want to spend most of my life working. I feel like a slave, and now my
youth is almost gone.

I don't care if it's a 10hr/4day schedule or a 9hr/4day 8hr/4day with less
pay, I want an extra day for myself. I'm an excellent engineer aside from my
ADHD quirks, and I'll go anywhere that offers this where I live.

My own startup (I almost have the capital for a long runway) will be 9hr/4day.

Fuck everything about 5 day work weeks.

~~~
ryanmercer
>I don't want to spend most of my life working. I feel like a slave

I've never understood this line of thinking. Providing for yourself is being a
contributing member of the species, work is a means of providing for yourself.
For all of human history you've either had to get up every day and go be
productive bringing resources in or you had to depend upon someone else to do
it for you.

I see this "working is slavery" attitude constantly in /r/leanfire and other
personal finance subs and I just don't get it. Every single thing you use
required labor to come into existence. Your phone, your computer, where you
live, the clothes you are wearing, the food you eat, all of that required
human labor to produce.

Worse, I often seen the 'work is slavery' form 6-figure salary types (at least
in /r/leanfire) that have great benefits and are griping they won't be able to
retire by 35 or from people that are on their first job (usually retail) and
think it is unfair they can't sit at home playing video games and having all
their needs met.

This sort of mentality can't be good for the future of mankind. Sitting in an
air conditioned building, listening to spotify, while you decide if you want
to go get the catered lunch or sit in your cubicle while you screw around on
HN/reddit and pretend to work is NOT slavery.

If you genuinely feel this way, go get a job throwing trucks/planes in the
dead of summer or go get a landscaping job for a few weeks. Seriously, go get
a manual labor job part time on the weekends and realize there are people
doing that 40, 50, 60 hours a week all year long.

Go tell someone from the 1950s, 1850s, 1750s, 1650s how hard you have it and
how bad it is having to sit at a computer all day in a climate controlled
building. They'd look at you in utter disbelief and beg you to tell them how
to have such a wonderful life.

I've had a job since I was 12 and working full time since the day I turned 18.
I'm grateful that I get to work, grateful that I am able to provide for
myself, grateful that I do get to sit a desk and am no longer humping a
backpack full of diesel weed eating and digging graves. I'll take sitting at a
monitor over getting sunburn to the point of blistered skin from being outside
working all day with no cover any day.

~~~
LeifCarrotson
I am overwhelmingly more productive and valuable now as a specialized, highly
educated, experienced engineer than I would have been as a subsistence farmer.
As a result of my efforts and the efforts of the rest of society, I have a
much higher standard of living.

However, I can't truly pick when I want to work. There are no jobs in my area
that pay 80% of my current rate for the same task done 4 days a week.

If a job was truly an even exchange of value between employer and employee, I
would expect to see some people working 7 days a week and making 40% more than
me, and some people working 3 day weeks and making 40% less. But aside from
service workers with work on nights, weekends, and holidays, everyone in my
city went to work in the dark this morning and will go home in the dark
tonight.

I am not against trading labor for money - that's the point of a job. I am
against trading freedom plus labor for money.

~~~
ryanmercer
>I am overwhelmingly more productive and valuable now as a specialized, highly
educated, experienced engineer than I would have been as a subsistence farmer.

I've got some news for you, many manual labor jobs aren't just picking up a
shovel and digging a hole or picking up a box and setting it back down.

Your first sentence, to me, reads "I'm more valuable than you because I know
thing, so I want more resources for less effort".

~~~
deathhand
>"I'm more valuable than you because I know thing, so I want more resources
for less effort"

Congratulations you just described capitalism.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
That's not even true - it's "I'm more valuable than you because I have more
resources". That's literally it - sometimes it matches up with knowledge, but
many times it doesn't.

------
jackcosgrove
We should switch everyone to rolling weekends.

It makes no sense that everyone gets the same two days off. It is _such_ a
hassle scheduling doctors appointments, receiving repairmen, going to the DMV,
etc. on a weekday.

The only reason we have the same two days off is for historical religious
reasons. And a rolling schedule could still accommodate that for those who
care.

For everyone else, just put them on a rolling schedule of five (or four) days
of work per week, any days, with some predictability.

~~~
armagon
Russia tried this 90 years ago. It was awful.

From [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_calendar#Five-
day_weeks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_calendar#Five-day_weeks) :

"Eighty per cent of each factory's workforce was at work every day (except
holidays) in an attempt to increase production while 20% were resting. But if
a husband and wife, and their relatives and friends, were assigned different
colors or numbers, they would not have a common rest day for their family and
social life. Furthermore, machines broke down more frequently both because
they were used by workers not familiar with them, and because no maintenance
could be performed on machines that were never idle in factories with
continuous schedules (24 hours/day every day). Five-day weeks (and later six-
day weeks) "made it impossible to observe Sunday as a day of rest. This
measure was deliberately introduced 'to facilitate the struggle to eliminate
religion'".[25]"

See also [https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/11/why-
don...](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/11/why-dont-i-see-
you-anymore/598336/)

~~~
b0rsuk
I broadly agree, but with one exception: I think it should be allowed to
volunteer for alternate weekend days. Working on Sunday and Saturday should be
totally fine for someone who is neither Catholic nor Jewish. My country is in
the process of eliminating working Sundays, and it kinda forces people to do
giant shoping on Saturday, while limiting leisure options on Sunday (no
aquapark etc). That kind of opt-in should be fixed in the contract.

