
Programming prodigy passes away at 16 - prajjwal
http://digitallife.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/14/10158059-programming-prodigy-passes-away-at-16-hear-her-philosophy-of-life
======
jacquesm
This thread and a the story make me equally sad.

The thread because this is one of the most hateful and ugly threads I've ever
seen on HN. A thread like this would be literally unthinkable a year or more
ago, and now I'm not even surprised it is here.

The story because it is about the death of a person that could easily be a
role model for a large number of young children, but females especially in
third world - and other - countries.

Those writing from their comfy first world lives that feel the need to point
out how 'privileged' this girl was and belittle her achievements have to stop
and think - excellent advice from elsewhere in this thread - before they
continue to write.

The internet has a long memory. Being insensitive to the death of any child
makes you look ugly, stupid and negative in ways that I find hard to describe.

Whatever your motivation, jealousy, a general misunderstanding of the station
of women in many third world countries or any other thing that might have
prompted you to write what you wrote here: Let me tell you straight from the
heart that I think this girl was everything you in particular should aspire to
be.

Smart, articulate, compassionate and gifted. The fact that she may or may not
have been a member of a family of some standing in Pakistan does not diminish
her achievements.

More often than not those that are born into positions of wealth or with other
so called advantages squander their fortunes and end up with less than their
parents left them with. That's an all too common story.

This girl took what little life she had and grasped it with both hands, then
made the best of it. I hope that when my time comes I'll be able to say I did
the same.

~~~
bitops
> _The thread because this is one of the most hateful and ugly threads I've
> ever seen on HN. A thread like this would be literally unthinkable a year or
> more ago, and now I'm not even surprised it is here._

I agree with you on this point a thousand times. What is going on with this
community? In general I like HN, but there's a real trend brewing when it
comes to gender-related articles. And it's not pretty.

HN regularly churns out some of the most biased, vitriolic and short-sighted
commentary when it comes to women that I've ever seen in any online community.

Question is, what can we do to counteract it?

[EDIT: as expected, I'm being downvoted. Good riddance, HN.]

~~~
redthrowaway
>HN regularly churns out some of the most biased, vitriolic and short-sighted
commentary when it comes to women that I've ever seen in any online community.

I really don't see that at all. There might be some implied sexism, and
perhaps occasionally overt sexism, but it's nothing like what you see on other
parts of the Internet. I've seldom read a top-rated comment on HN and thought,
"wow, that's really sexist." Sure, they exist at the bottom of the page, but
there isn't much we can do about that.

Do you have a discussion in mind that makes you feel that way? I'd like to see
an example of what you consider "biased, vitriolic, and short-sighted
commentary when it comes to women."

------
kevinalexbrown
I'm going to refrain from commenting on her abilities. One problem I have with
"X accomplished person passed away" on the internet is that a free-for-all
seems to start, wherein everyone feels qualified to judge that person's
accomplishments from behind a monitor. Steve Jobs, whoever, it might seem
unfair that just because someone died that the "unworthy" things they did get
celebrated. I disagree.

What _did_ strike me as particularly relevant for HN and the drive to succeed
was the following quotation from an earlier article on her life, where the
author so kindly informed her that she was no longer the "youngest MCP in the
world":

 _“This is the first time I’ve seen this story. But I must say that I’m really
happy to have read it. This is exactly what I had been wishing for ever since
I got to bring laurels for my country. I am very glad to see that people are
following what I did and have succeeded in beating me. I don’t know whether
you’ve heard or not but a boy, named Bilal, from Gujranwala in Pakistan also
became a Microsoft Certified Professional at the age of nine. I would say that
the other youngsters should follow suit, thereby convincing the people to take
us kids seriously. Our generation is very talented and so should be
promoted.”_ [1]

A lot of people are brought here by the will to do Something Great, so much so
that we get caught up in whether or not credit is given rightly, whether we'll
get it, whether the whole world of doing Great Things is fair (it's not). It
was this perspective of humility in the face of eventually being passed up,
which is so rare in externally validated precocious children, that I found
inspiring.

[1] <http://www.geekwire.com/2011/arfa>

~~~
feralchimp
Thank you for this. We are celebrating the life / lamenting the death of the
_person_ to happened to accomplish something notable, not the point-
accomplishment itself (which will be duplicated/eclipsed).

She had class and a sense of perspective well beyond her years, and which many
people fail to achieve over much longer lives.

------
apinstein
I remember reading about this girl years ago. Like some of the other
commenters I wasn't that surprised about her MSFT certification. I mean even a
10-year old can geek out on that kind of stuff, it wasn't that notable.

However I just noticed this quote from her, which is so much more remarkable
for a 10-year old:

"If you want to do something big in your life, you must remember that shyness
is only the mind," she said. "If you think shy, you act shy. If you think
confident you act confident. Therefore never let shyness conquer your mind."

To me that's the amazing part of her story, and something she can teach others
about forever.

~~~
sp332
When I was young (8-9 years old) everyone - peers, teachers, and parents -
told me to stop being so outspoken. "Think before you speak" was drilled into
me for years, continuously. It was probably the worst advice I have ever
received.

~~~
pbsd
"Think before you speak" is always good advice. The "confidence of the mind"
referred above does not mean that you should shit out everything that pops in
your head.

~~~
sp332
"Think before you speak" makes it very difficult to hold a normal
conversation. Of course I'm not anti-thinking but it's very difficult to
express yourself (in most media, but especially talking) if you hesitate
constantly.

If you're having trouble speaking well, the solution probably isn't to speak
slower, but to learn over time how to speak better at-speed.

~~~
potatolicious
> _"Of course I'm not anti-thinking but it's very difficult to express
> yourself (in most media, but especially talking) if you hesitate
> constantly."_

I vehemently disagree - some of my most respected people in life pause
frequently while speaking, and will directly ask for a moment when questioned
about something, to collect their thoughts. I give these people's words
incredible weight in my life not just because I respect them as people, but
knowing that what they're telling me is well considered instead of knee-jerk.

I think the social expectation of having an answer at the drop of a hat on
_anything_ is pretty unfortunate, and makes us all a little bit dumber.

~~~
brendan10211
That's why I like to type my responses, because they don't see it anyway until
I press enter or whatever.

------
simplegeek
I'm a long-time HN member and I'm surprised at some of the comments here.
Probably she wasn't a prodigy, also probably she wasn't a genius. Though she
had every possibly trait that must have made her a genius later in her life.

Still, she was very intelligent, very sweet and a very caring kid. I met her
and also her dad around 2005.

Also, she came from a very humble background and when I met her, her father
was travelling with her using public transport (I know this because I did drop
her and her father few times).

That having been said, given where she came from, she did few things in her 16
years of life that I know may people cannot. RIP.

------
AmadKamali
Firstly,I think the real reason why the girl became a media celebrity was not
her Microsoft exam credentials or programming ability. It was that she came
out as a really smart, intelligent,sweet, eloquent and mature person in every
interview she gave after hitting the headlines for being invited by Bill
Gates. I wish some of these interviews had subtitles so you could have a
better understanding of what I mean. For example when asked(at the age of nine
years)what her really outstanding achievement was, she replied that it was her
ability to gift a computer lab to a girls school of her native village(after
winning awards and grants etc). When asked what she wanted to do next, she
said she would like to start "digicon" valley in Pakistan like silicon valley
in US. And may more like that.

Secondly, she didn't belong to elite class at all. Her father is a retired
Army officer, which means essentially middle class. She was transferred to a
better/elite School only after becoming a celebrity.

Here is one interview which is entirely in English:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCUbRsab6iQ&feature=relat...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCUbRsab6iQ&feature=related)

------
fiaz
Sure being an "MCP" in the HN circle is absolutely meaningless and doesn't
warrant the title "programming prodigy", but that's not the point of this
article. The point is that this was a girl who came from a third world country
where women are not treated as well as men are in the West, and made it to the
Redmond campus based on her own ambition and drive to do something for
herself.

~~~
andreadallera
> and made it to the Redmond campus based on her own ambition and drive to do
> something for herself.

Sorry but no. Again, I don't want to belittle her accomplishments - it's
certainly a feat for any girl or boy her age to be even able to put a very
simple application together, but she came from a very wealthy Pakistani
family. Saying that she made it to Redmond _out of her own ambition and drive_
is spitting in the face of all her not so privileged compatriots who are
struggling to do the same.

~~~
ericb
I know privileged and smart 30 year olds for whom getting a real job or moving
out of the house would be a major major accomplishment. This girl was 10.

Writing off her accomplishments due to privilege is unfair.

~~~
andreadallera
You know sons and daughters of multi-milionairs having problem finding a job
and moving out of the house?

~~~
dodedo
I know several, in fact. It's fairly common result of rich parents spoiling
their kids.

~~~
bitops
Agreed. Even here in the good old Bay Area there are quite a few trust fund
kids with zero work ethic, little motivation and no desire to ever work
because their parents will let them ride the money indefinitely. Very sad.

------
mathattack
There's definitely a life lesson in her tragedy that's getting lost amongst
folks arguing whether or not she was a true prodigy.

It seems clear that she had emotional intelligence above and beyond
analytical. That should be enough.

I feel terrible for her parents. Burying a child has to be the hardest thing
in the world.

------
83457
I remember when the stories about Afra getting certified came out years ago.
Regardless of some comments on HN about her accomplishments being over-hyped,
I think we can all agree that she had a bright future and her death is tragic.

------
hermannj314
MCP at 9 and got to meet Bill Gates? Wow! That is a great accomplishment. I'm
almost 30 and I have not done either of those things!

What a great quote, too. She seemed to have a great outlook. Rest in Peace.

~~~
rbanffy
Done that, no biggie there.

What's most important about her was not her professional certification. When
others younger than her got certified, instead of seeing competition, she saw
company. Of the grants she received, she donated a computer lab to a girls
school. She was very mature and articulate. I may disagree with her tastes in
programming languages and operating systems, but I can recognize a great
person when I see one.

------
EponymousCoward
Totally shocked that a community full of Aspies is having a hard time
mustering sympathy for this girl and instead have to pedantically inform the
Internet that that's not really programming and what's the big deal anyway I
did this when I was 12 in between stimming sessions and telling my parents
every species of dinosaur.

------
mgkimsal
I don't know quite what Pakistan's cultural norms are, but I suspect that
being female, the "youngest MCP" thing may have been even that much more
remarkable.

~~~
fiaz
Keep in mind Pakistan had a female prime minister many years ago.

~~~
bitops
Don't forget that that same prime minister was brutally assassinated when she
tried to return to her country. And she was kicked out forcibly, had to live
in exile for many years. A remarkable woman. The movie "Bhutto" about her life
is well worth seeing.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto>

------
klausjensen
_"If you want to do something big in your life, you must remember that shyness
is only the mind," she said. "If you think shy, you act shy. If you think
confident you act confident. Therefore never let shyness conquer your mind."_

Pretty close to my motto: "What Would You Do If You Were Not Afraid?".

Taken from "Who Moved My Cheese?" by Dr. Spencer Johnsson.

------
swombat
I hate to be that guy, but if she's to be labelled a "programming prodigy",
what did she actually program?

~~~
khalidmbajwa
She was the youngest Microsoft Certified Professional in history at age 9. Her
genius can be better appreciated in a geographical context. Pakistan has a
non-existent culture of Start ups and original products. Thinking out of the
box can sometimes even become a Taboo. The support system for doing a start
up, building a product or even meaningful contribution to a real-world project
, especially at her age simply does not exist. It's therefore not a wonder
that she did not produce anything you can measure by your paradigm of a
'Programmer Prodigy'. Passing the MS Certification at her tender age was
reflective of her genius. That she wasn't able to translate that into a
contribution to a project that had demonstrable external value is irrelevant
simply because the cultural and geographical limitations rendered her unable
to do so.

~~~
tluyben2
Are you sure? I mean, yes, this goes for the become an mscp at 9 in Pakistan
(which is harder than elsewhere), but she got such a large amount of media
attention and I think her father is some kind of big shot in Pakistan as well.
It sounds like she was able enough despite the limitations you mention, she
just didn't do it?

~~~
khalidmbajwa
Look, wealth of family is just one very minute side of it. To actually
translate your programming skills into an actual product, or startup or
contribute to a real-world project, you need a lot more than that. You need
mentors, you need awareness, you need tangible inspirations around you, ones
that you can learn from and follow, you need advice, you need peers that you
can collaborate with. That her achievements remained limited to passing a
certification at a young age was because she didn't have any opportunity, or i
would even argue , even awareness to take it to the next level. This awareness
and opportunity is a product of so many more factors that i have highlighted
above, not just media attention and financial power of one's family.

~~~
tluyben2
Fair point, still, she seemed quite creative. But you are right; 'we' have a
different point of view. At least that's what it seems like.

Edit: I have some reservations about saying that though; I work with Pakistani
designers and programmers, normal people, mostly not even well educated (just
a bit) with just enough money to have bought a computer and learn some stuff.
And they made products, sites, money just out of nothing like we would do
here. So in that regard I have come to know at least some Pakistani as people
who, despite their culture, mentors (and general lack there of), peers (and
lack there of) and without the press, certification, education and wealthy
family who took more or less the same path as 'we' westerners would. There are
exceptions to most rules and I would think she would be that.

------
madrox
If the headline was "world's youngest MSP" instead of "programming prodigy"
would there be less hate in this thread?

~~~
mibbitor
"world's youngest MSP" is still pretty meaningless.

I have no clue why this is even on hacker news, let alone top story.

~~~
chc
Well, you have only been here eight days. Give it some time and I'm sure
you'll come to understand what HN appreciates better.

------
bane
_"If you want to do something big in your life, you must remember that shyness
is only the mind," she said. "If you think shy, you act shy. If you think
confident you act confident. Therefore never let shyness conquer your mind."_

Meditating on shyness as a kind of fear

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that
brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over
me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see
its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

------
AznHisoka
Anyone know what was the causes of her seizures?

------
azizali
I have heard a few interviews of her when she was 11. In her native language
URDU. AND I must tell you that she is the most Wisest girl of her age that I
have ever known. She is wiser than most 25 year olds. And her personality was
truely fun and energizing.

------
aneth
Her philosophy in more "adult" language:

<http://www.doitmotherfucker.com/>

------
rolypoly
They are naming their IT Parks after her. That is absurd and completely
illogical. I guess Pakistani will soon include her doings and sayings in their
Computer Science courses.

[1][http://digg.com/newsbar/Technology/lahore_i_t_park_now_named...](http://digg.com/newsbar/Technology/lahore_i_t_park_now_named_arfa_karim_i_t_park_chief_minister_punjab)

[2]<http://tribune.com.pk/story/321964/k/>

~~~
Karunamon
It's absurd that parks are named after notable people? What?

Someone explain the bile and hatred in this thread to me. I don't get it.

~~~
rolypoly
Do you think MCP is that prestigious?

~~~
Karunamon
For a 9 year old? Yes.

For a 9 year old female in Pakistan? More so.

For a 9 year old female in Pakistan with an outlook on life that is more
mature than some 20 year olds?

I'm having trouble coming up with reasons that this wasn't a very big deal.

~~~
rolypoly
if she was that genius then she should have solved NP-P problem at 14-15 years
old. And in Pakistan elite class females don't face discrimination.

Frankly speaking i have more respect for that Boy
<http://launchpad.net/~bilalakhtar> than her.At least he can program.

~~~
Karunamon
And comparatively, I have no respect for you. What have you done, except
belittled?

------
andreadallera
I hate to write this, since the tragic happening but really, the hype is
widely unjustified.

I started programming when I was 8, I know a lot of people that started
meddling around with computer around the same age, and I was born a decade
before her which, in computer years, is like a century. Everything programming
related was a hundred times more difficult to accomplish than it is now - I
wrote assembly on a C64, because that's all my poor family could afford, with
nothing more than a printsheet of the opcodes. And no internet, keep that in
mind. And I won't say I'm a prodigy because of that.

I am also an MCP (Microsoft Certified Professional) and I can tell you that
the exam was nothing but difficult - basically, it had nothing to do with
actual programming and more with knowing what checkbox to flag. I studied for
it the evening before the test.

I've seen so many stories like this, most of them not as tragic and not as
heartwarming. For example, a heir of a very wealth family that I know has been
featured in at least 10 Italian newspapers as "the new Mark Zuckerberg" or
"the 20 years-old startupper" or "the genius behind <his startup>", all
because his family has deep ties with the editors.

That has taught me never to believe a thing of what I read on something even
vaguely institutionalized.

~~~
reason
Jesus, every damn time someone of note passes away we get a bunch of morons on
here telling us how the accomplishments aren't as good as they seem. You
people need to learn when to bite your tongues. I'm willing to bet if it were
some VC going on and on about his/her life's works, the last thing you'd do is
point out how unremarkable and unimpressive any of it is.

Let's see if a similar article is written up about your achievements when you
pass away.

Thanks for the insight, though!

~~~
andreadallera
> we get a bunch of morons on here telling us how the accomplishments aren't
> as good as they seem.

Whoa, easy. I have expressed my opinion and I have backed it up well I think.
No hate for the poor girl, that's just terrible that somebody 16 years old
have to die, no matter his or her accomplishments.

On the other hand, what accomplishments are we talking about here? Seriously,
I'm really sorry for the poor girl, I really am, but still I can't see the
accomplishment she's made.

And, honestly, I don't give a rat's ass about what people will write about me
when I'm dead.

~~~
reason
Bullshit. Utter bullshit.

I don't get this angry when commenting here but the disgusting lack of empathy
continually expressed on HN really, really gets to me. If you truly felt sorry
for the girl, for her family, considered her family's pride for what she
accomplished not only for herself but possibly for other kids in Pakistan,
then you wouldn't feel the need to point out any of what you've stated.

I read the article and found it quite inspirational that a girl her age had so
much motivation. Most kids at the age of 9 are playing their Wii's and
watching early-morning reruns of Power Rangers. Her achievements go beyond
technical certification.

But it's alright. Let's be champions of truth and justice at the sacrifice of
appreciation and empathy. It'd be the hacker thing to do, anyway. It's
happened with Dropbox, AirBnB, Steve Jobs, etc, already; so one more added to
the list is a drop in the bucket.

~~~
andreadallera
Your reply makes me sad. I'll try to explain why:

Empathy should have nothing to do with your ability to evaluate facts. Empathy
has an evil cousin, _politically correctness_. When politically correctness
comes into play, you lose the game. You can't talk about anything with a
straight perspective because, you know, _somebody might get offended_.

A 16 years old kid has died. That is a sad fact by itself. If she was the
dumbest kid in Pakistan that wouldn't have made the fact less sad - only, you
wouldn't have known it. If she was the poorest kid in Pakistan, same thing.
Now, you know that _a lot_ of 16 years old kids die in Pakistan? Most of them
with family situations much worse than the one she was in? Do you feel empathy
for them? I bet so. That's a good thing, a human thing to feel.

Now, as a thought experiment, let's say she wasn't a Pakistani little girl.
Let's say she was a 16 years old boy coming from a rich US family. Even fat
and greasy, to add to the image. Let's also add that this one didn't die -
he's well off in his NY mansion eating Snickers all day. What would you have
thought of the article? "16 years old kid from NY loves messing around with
.NET". Wouldn't you have said: _who cares_? And rightly so?

Empathy drains perspective. Feeling empathy is the noblest thing in the world.
At the same time, it doesn't mean that it should suspend your ability to
evaluate situations. A big problem with our society and our communication
channels is that they routinely employ this effect to steer public opinion
where they want it to be. Don't be a sucker - be human, but use your brain.

~~~
ascendant
You are a true engineer right to the end. Sticking your foot in your mouth and
then continually trying to use logic to climb out of the hole you dug for
yourself. The next time someone of note passes away, resist the urge to take
them down a notch and just keep your mouth shut.

~~~
andreadallera
And you're a true manager right to the end, my friend. Making decision with
your heart alone and refusing to see logic and data when they're in front of
you.

May our paths never cross in real life.

~~~
ceol
There's nothing logical about your post, because a logical post wouldn't
ignore that she was a 9 year old girl from Pakistan when she became a MCP and
you _weren't_ a 9 year old girl from Pakistan when you became a MCP. You
refuse to see the vast amount of differences between you and her and then
continue to make a comparison as though it has any meaning.

That's not logic. That's jealousy.

