
Without Power, Puerto Rico Is Cash Only - petethomas
https://nytimes.com/2017/09/29/us/puerto-rico-shortages-cash.html
======
pryelluw
Local here:

Its not cash only anymore. ATM service is coming back up to a lot of the
island. Banks are opening and things are looking up.

Life is somewhat getting back to normal. The big issue is that people are now
realizing that they are out of jobs. Its why Im moving to Atlanta this month.
Things are bound to get interesting once the poor run out of money.

Btw, going to use this space (and please excuse me) to let the community know
that Im available for hire. Please email me at pryelluw@gmail.com for more
details or tweet at me @pryelluw

You can find a link to my resume on my profile. Willing to relocate whithin
the continental US.

~~~
jnbiche
Yes, use this opportunity to make contacts. But I'd recommend you add a
sentence or two to let HN employers know your professional background and
skills. I see from your profile that you do Python, Django, and JavaScript,
anything else? Your impressive blog discusses functional programming a lot.

Only willing to consider Atlanta, or other cities in Southeast? (Raleigh-
Durham is another big regional employer of programmers, and hires lots of
Python folks)

Also, I'm guessing things are only looking up in San Juan, right? The outlying
areas still have no clean drinking water, food, or medicine from what I'm
seeing.

~~~
djKianoosh
My wife is from PR and most of her family lives theoughout the island. It's
not actually "better" in San Juan, because people are desperate for water/gas
in many neighborhoods. I can only tell you that there are some pretty horrible
things going on in parts of San Juan.

In the mountain towns they still dont have any comms and no water or gas.

In the north west the lines for gas/water are miles long.

Lots of people are leaving. It will be really interesting to see how the long
term effects play out, even if only 25% of the population moves to NY,
Chicago, DC, Orlando, Philly, etc.

~~~
bobthepanda
PR is no stranger to mass exodus (the previous waves to New York are evidence
of this). In fact the pre-hurricane problems largely stem from the results of
the past exoduses.

Solving the problem requires repealing all the laws that yoke PR to mainland
companies without providing any of the actual benefits, but that would require
the current Congress to want to give PR something like statehood, if not
statehood itself.

~~~
memracom
If they cannot justify statehood then annex it to Florida.

~~~
drxzcl
No republican is going to add a few million safely Democratic votes to
Florida. Unfortunately that’s the kind of world we live in.

~~~
jcadam
Solution: Divide Florida into two states (North and South). Give Puerto Rico
to South Florida. Puerto Rico has much more in common (culturally) with South
Florida anyway.

North Florida is heavily republican, South Florida is heavily democrat.

Status Quo is maintained.

------
temp-dude-87844
In most contemporary societies, including the United States, there are really
no provisions, practices, and doctrines to handle a large city's worth of
people's disruption of daily routine. We've seen this with Katrina and Sandy,
but more recently with Harvey, Irma, and Maria.

Puerto Rico's situation is worse because of several compounding factors that
work against them: the scale of the disaster, communication and coordination
issues, logistical challenges, and a belligerent rhetoric coming from the
topmost levels of the US federal government despite lower-level federal
employees being part of of a burgeoning, although so far inadequate recovery
effort.

But in each of these disasters, the hard questions to which society offers
zero answers begin long before the disaster actually strikes. Universities and
research organizations have long studied reasons why people don't evacuate,
and while discretionary answers exist, many people simply report being unable
to afford the expenses of a temporary relocation away from one's regular job
for a disaster that's forecasted to perhaps occur 3-5 days out.

You can invoke the argument that it's literally a matter of life and death and
that ought to be worth any expense, but that's not helpful when people may not
have cash on hand, or quick access to easy emergency credit that would be
guaranteed by some higher party. It's truly unfortunate that situation is that
disaster aid for forecastable disasters only kicks in once it has already
struck, and not days before when its inevitability becomes clear.

In Puerto Rico's current case, the breakdown of societal structures due to
lack of electricity, lack of electronic communication, lack of fuel, lack of
distribution capability is unfortunate enough, but the degenerate functioning
of life is just bizarre; people are now trying to get by in a worst-of-both-
worlds hybrid of subsistence tribalism and wage-earning capitalism, where they
both have to forage for food and water and barter for supplies, while at the
same time giving the rest of their cash-on-hand to large corporations like CVS
for stuff that's still on the shelves; and any changes to this status quo are
reliant on random individuals' goodwill -- like a shopowner who decides to
give away supplies -- instead of any organized directives from top-down.

~~~
pjc50
> worst-of-both-worlds hybrid of subsistence tribalism and wage-earning
> capitalism

The bottom end of capitalism often looks quite like subsistence tribalism.

> many people simply report being unable to afford the expenses of a temporary
> relocation away from one's regular job for a disaster that's forecasted to
> perhaps occur 3-5 days out

Well, yes. You can be sure that everyone outside the disaster zone will be
along to restore capitalism before they restore electricity. The disaster is
temporary but the economic structure remains. It's not even clear that being
homeless in NYC on your own is better than being homeless in the ruins of your
community. It may be better to turn up to your non-functional workplace and
keep your job than evacuate and lose it.

[http://www.naplesnews.com/story/weather/hurricanes/2017/09/0...](http://www.naplesnews.com/story/weather/hurricanes/2017/09/07/youre-
fired-florida-evacuees-have-few-legal-protections-termination/642866001/)

(I think well-off people underestimate how much ordinary capitalism looks like
imminent disaster to people at the sharp end - it's no use if the stores are
open and the hospitals working if you can't afford food or healthcare.)

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _You can be sure that everyone outside the disaster zone will be along to
> restore capitalism before they restore electricity_

What does this mean?

~~~
jacalata
Banks saying your mortgage or credit cards or student loan is in default
before the city is recovered enough for you to earn if a paycheck again.

~~~
briandear
Is it the fault of the bank that you haven’t created a rainy day fund? Nobody
forced you to get a mortgage, credit cards or student loans. Common sense
indicates people should have 6 months of living expenses saved. Many people
can’t afford to do that, but then if that’s the case, why are people incurring
debts? A student loan implies a college degree, which implies that we aren’t
talking about the profoundly poor, but some standard issue millennial.

And student loan default is really hard to do; you can get forebearances for
practically any reason. There is zero excuse to default on student loans; they
have every payment plan imaginable.

------
glibgil
Just a reminder that anyone can issue credit. A composition notebook and a
pencil is all it takes to keep record.

1\. Pay by the end of the month and it doesn’t effect me. No interest.

2\. Otherwise, 1% to 1.5% of the balance in interest month over month. You
have to pay at least the interest every month.

3\. If I need to borrow, I can do it on the strength of my accounts receivable
and my ability to collect interest payments reliably.

4\. If I don’t get payed back, I can take someone to court when things are
back to normal and yes, the court will side with me.

4.b There's always ways to create incentives to pay debts.

It has worked this way for hundreds of years in parts of Latin America and
other areas of the world with fluctuating infrastructure.

~~~
fiatjaf
4a: You can't be sure of that. The court can always decide (and I've seen many
analogous situations in which it did) that your debt is not valid, it was
oppressive, it abused the customer needs etc. and so you lose.

4b: Of which incentives are you talking about? The other points you've
mentioned are trivial, this is the only point that has problems. If you solve
4b somehow someday you'll be making a huge benefit to the world, a revolution
greater than Bitcoin.

~~~
21
4b: big men with clubs? that was the traditional incentive to pay

------
giancarlostoro
I'll take this chance to mention this since not a lot of people know, and
maybe someone can get this information out to friends / family in Puerto Rico
who can help: Puerto Rico has a lot of supplies[0] which many cities need, but
they're sitting in limbo. The issue is there are not enough actual truck
drivers. The Governor of Puerto Rico is calling forth any truck drivers to
come to San Juan where they were sitting for days (a week?). The issue is
because the grid is down contracting truck drivers becomes harder and almost
impossible. I do know some land lines do work in some parts of Puerto Rico,
but maybe not all parts. I'm not sure about what people around the USA can do
100% but I heard of a friend from here in Florida who was going to volunteer
to drive trucks in Puerto Rico, you need to be licensed as a prerequisite of
course.

[0]: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/us/puerto-rico-aid-
problem/ind...](http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/us/puerto-rico-aid-
problem/index.html)

------
deckar01
This title is odd. Business that have ATMs instead of credit card machines are
already cash only. It would be more accurate to say "without power to run
credit card machines, Puerto Rico is cash only."

It would be nice if there was a credit card machine that was powered by the
phone line directly.

Edit: Most of the small businesses I worked at growing up in rural Oklahoma
had mechanical imprinting machines with carbon paper receipts so that they
could process credit card payments offline.

~~~
froindt
>Most of the small businesses I worked at growing up in rural Oklahoma had
mechanical imprinting machines with carbon paper receipts so that they could
process credit card payments offline.

I wonder how prevalent this is still? I've heard of restaurants keeping one
around just in case. I wonder what the fee would be for imprinted credit card
transactions?

My most recent Citi DoubleCash card doesn't have embossed numbers. Could I
still do an offline transaction?

~~~
dredmorbius
The embossing is simply a convenience. Numbers retain their numericy when
copied by hand, just as when physically imprinted or electronically
transmitted.

------
odammit
Not to sound like a doomsday prepper but my dad instilled in me growing up in
south Florida to “be the bank” in case I was ever in a scenario like this. I
keep a months worth of pay on hand in small bills and a months worth of pay in
1/10th ounce gold coins.

Nothing like needing a bottle of water and only having $20s.

~~~
chiph
I also grew up in hurricane country. You always wanted to have several hundred
in cash at the house. The point about small bills is a good one. I was without
power for 10 days after Hugo, so now I keep a week's worth of freeze-dried
food and bottled water, plus a backpacking stove to heat the water.

The small backpacker sized solar cells are fairly worthless for charging a
modern smartphone - the difference between the current they put out and power
draw by the phone is too great, even with a supplemental LiOn battery pack.

~~~
odammit
I don’t have a way to recharge my phone besides a few backup batteries, which
is embarrassing. I do also keep some food and water. I have about 30 days of
stored chlorinated water in BPA free containers and a weeks worth of MREs and
about two big laundry basket sized tubs of canned food.

I backpack a lot so I’ve got tons of random “survival supplies” but two key
things are:

\- little gas stove(1)

\- can opener

(1) -
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B4FY8YO/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apip_oKN...](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B4FY8YO/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apip_oKNwFLmLvFi4J)

~~~
chiph
That is indeed a little gas stove. :) Purchasers should be aware that the fuel
cylinders can have either threaded or non-threaded connectors. Buy the one
that matches the stove.

MREs are fine (the new ones are far tastier than the ones we had in the 80's),
but the Mountain House "bucket" of freeze-dried food has a 30 year shelf-life,
as long as you don't open the bucket and keep it out of the sun. It's a higher
cost up front, but essentially never has to be replaced until you use it.

[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00955DUHQ](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00955DUHQ)

------
chirau
We in Zimbabwe know a thing or two about running on cash only. Been doing it
for almost a decade.

~~~
Waterluvian
That's wild to think about from my perspective. I haven't touched physical
currency in years in Canada. I'm sure you get by just fine but it's an
interesting thought. I kind of miss cash.

~~~
21
What's stopping you? I'm in UK, I have cards, but I try to use cash as much as
possible.

Having said that, almost every time I pay more than 20 in cash, the seller
gives me the eye, puts the money under a UV light, and I feel like some sort
of a criminal.

~~~
KGIII
When they do that, I say, 'Don't look too closely, I just printed that up this
morning.'

Only once has it resulted in them calling a manager over. Every other time, it
gets strange looks, a chuckle, a smile of mirth, or a groan. Either way, it's
something unusual for them to hear in what is likely a repetitive job.

~~~
epochwolf
Please don’t do that. People make that joke all the time. It’s not funny and
we have to pretend to find it amusing or we get written up.

~~~
chiph
Unless you're Steve Wozniak, who has a tear-off pad of $2 bills.

------
jdoliner
> We have been getting shipments of money.

It's kinda weird to think that at a time when there are huge shortages of
basically everything it makes sense to use shipping space on something whose
value is purely symbolic.

I do get that they're shipping plenty of other things and the cash is probably
a pretty small piece of the total space, but still it's worth thinking about.

~~~
bobthepanda
If there's too little cash, people will start hoarding and the economy will
quite literally grind to a halt as people are reluctant to part with money.

Going back to bartering is a great way to induce a depression.

~~~
Robotbeat
Bartering often comes after a depression already exists. When liquidity drops
to zero, people will develop their own money. Bottles of Tide, gasoline,
cigarettes, etc.

------
mtgx
Something to think about before we all decide we want to be a "cashless
society", especially when the U.S. also currently fears EMP attacks from North
Korea, Russia, etc

~~~
walterbell
Wake up call for "modern" retailers with touch screen cash registers that
don't accept cash. They would either go out of business or have to invent a
new ERP system on the fly.

~~~
holydude
If there would be an emp blast anywhere in the world you would have far bigger
problems. Btw a cash counter in my local mcdonalds was out of order meaning
the lady had to write down every payment on a piece of paper. Because
apparently it is not enough to just hand over the banknotes. You need to know
that you sold cafe latte for 3euros and a mcmuffin for 1.5.

~~~
receipt
It’s called a receipt, and they better be handing them out.

~~~
mcculley
I’m sure their process needs a receipt. I usually don’t need documentation of
such transactions. I often wish they had a way to decline the receipt so the
paper isn’t wasted on something going straight into a waste bin.

~~~
firethief
Read in Mitch Hedberg's voice: “I bought a doughnut and they gave me a receipt
for the doughtnut... I don't need a receipt for the doughnut. I give you money
and you give me the doughnut, end of transaction. We don't need to bring ink
and paper into this. I can't imagine a scenario that I would have to prove
that I bought a doughnut. To some skeptical friend, 'Don't even act like I
didn't get that doughnut, I've got the documentation right here... It's in my
file at home. ...Under "D".'”

~~~
richardknop
If you are a small business then you probably want the receipt for the
doughnut so it can be written of as business expense. Or if you are a
contractor with your own company, you'll want receipt for lunch for tax
purposes.

~~~
mcculley
I run a business. I am aware of the need for an audit trail. I do not need
that as a consumer buying a bottle of water. I put that receipt straight into
the waste bin.

~~~
richardknop
Yeah but my point it as a contractor who goes to buy some food during lunch
break I am a consumer but I need the receipt in order to claim the lunch as
business expense.

------
TomK32
Where's your bitcoins now?!

~~~
rothbardrand
Physical bitcoin, can be transacted offline. Just hand it over like a dollar
bill:

[https://opendime.com](https://opendime.com)

Still mostly useful for larger amounts, though, due to the relative high cost
of hardware, but it's new.

~~~
icebraining
I seem to remember a simpler version - it was a scratch card, which had the
address fully visible (so you could check the balance was correct) but the
private key hidden behind the scratching area. That way you could reuse the
bill or scratch it and transfer the amount.

Can't seem to find it again, though.

------
chrissnell
In my opinion, the three currencies of the apocalypse are: ammunition, water,
and diesel fuel.

Ammunition is the universal apocalyptic currency. You can hunt with it and you
can protect your family, food, and possessions with it. It is shelf-stable and
easily subdivided. It can be put in a box and buried or carried in your
pocket. Lots of people own guns but few have significant stashes of
ammunition. A staple of chaotic times.

Water, that’s obvious, but you need a way to collect it and clean it. Those
are their own currencies.

Diesel powers computer-less trucks like my old Land Rover Defender 110.
Probably the last running vehicles in an apocalypse. It also runs generators
and water pumps. It can potentially be manufactured by civilians.

~~~
Clubber
Believe it or not, diesel (and regular gas) is perishable. It starts to
degrade as soon as 30 days without additives. It's still usable for a while
though. Assuming a long term (lifetime) apocalypse, most of it will go bad
eventually.

[https://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tools/how-long-does-diesel-
fu...](https://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tools/how-long-does-diesel-fuel-last-
storage)

Ammunition is tricky because there are so many "denominations" (i.e.
calibers). It would certainly come in handy. One of the biggest benefits of
the M16 for the US military was that it was standardized, meaning every branch
used it and they all used the same caliber.

I think canned food would be important too. Quite a revolutionary concept we
take for granted (we can thank Napoleon). Fun fact, canned food was invented
48 years before the can opener.

I think drugs and alcohol would be a huge currency. Always have been in one
form or the other.

Of course most people in cities would be hosed after the canned food ran out,
unless there was a severe population drop.

Read the book "Alas Babylon," it is a good fiction about nuclear war.

~~~
deftnerd
Excellent points that most people overlook.

As impractical as it seems at first glance, the best post-apocalypse vehicles
(barring an EMP scenario) would be electric since scavenged solar panels could
provide the energy source for generations without significant degradation.
Scrounging for electricity-based energy generation is much more practical than
petrol-based resources that degrade, need refining, etc.

Batteries won't last as long as the solar panels, but as a personal
observation, I've noticed that my parents hybrid Prius still has over 95%
battery health after almost 15 years. High-quality batteries with well-
engineered charge controllers have really impressive life spans in terms of
maintaining their charge capacity!

~~~
unlmtd1
A bicycle is by far the best post apocalyptic transport. Electric is worse
than gas; at least the gas powered vehicle is lighter when its empty.

~~~
KGIII
Technically speaking, an EV will be lighter when the batteries are discharged.
Not that anyone is going to notice or appreciate the difference.

Note: This has no impact on your argument. I only mention it because I love me
some physics.

Here's a citation, if you're curious:

[https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/34421/does-
the-m...](https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/34421/does-the-mass-of-
a-battery-change-when-charged-discharged)

The short version is that it will have less mass when the battery is
discharged. However, you're not going to be able to detect a difference on
your bathroom scale.

Again, this is being posted as a mere factoid and not meant to argue your
point.

------
ant6n
Mmh, seems that the first level of Prepping is keeping some cash around.

------
known
Blame it on irrational dependence on
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainable_energy#Green_energ...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainable_energy#Green_energy_and_green_power)

------
simonebrunozzi
Great opportunity for all the bitcoin enthusiasts to show the world how a
(small) nation can run on cryptocurrencies (you just need mobile phone
connectivity - SMS/text could also be sufficient).

~~~
fludlight
> (you just need mobile phone connectivity - SMS/text could also be
> sufficient).

kinda hard without power

------
SubiculumCode
Not being a state, can Pierto Rico mint its own currency?

~~~
ars
They have to follow all Federal laws that deal with that. Not being a state
doesn't change that.

I assume you are asking out of curiosity, since that would not help anything
on a practical level. There is no shortage of cash, the problem is getting it
to people.

------
pjc50
The abandonment of Puerto Rico by by the rest of the US, and its
politicisation by the president, is extraordinary. How is this playing out
over there in mainland US, or do people not really regard it as American?

~~~
rayiner
Nobody really cared when Flint Michigan had a water crisis so I’m not sure the
“is it America” thing really makes a difference.

America is simply too big for people to care all that much about what happens
in far flung areas. Hearing about flooding in Louisiana is like about flooding
in Bangladesh. Unfortunate, but not my problem.

~~~
tptacek
That doesn't sound right at all. People went out of their way --- sometimes
driving themselves bodily for many hours to help --- when Houston flooded.
Houston is "far" from many of those people too. I feel no closer to
Houstonians than I do to New Orleans or people in Flint.

~~~
Clubber
There seems to be a correlation between how the news covers disasters and how
we react to it. It gives weight to the idea that the news controls what and
how we deal with things in the US. Pretty scary when you realize how
irresponsible the US news is.

[https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-media-really-has-
ne...](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-media-really-has-neglected-
puerto-rico/)

~~~
firethief
> There seems to be a correlation between how the news covers disasters and
> how we react to it.

If this weren't the case, there would be an opening for media that isn't
completely out of touch...

------
strangattractor
If they had only switched to Bitcoin they wouldn't have this problem - NOT

~~~
rothbardrand
Physical bitcoin, can be transacted offline. Just hand it over like a dollar
bill:

[https://opendime.com](https://opendime.com)

Still mostly useful for larger amounts, though, due to the relative high cost
of hardware, but it's new.

~~~
nebabyte
> opendime [...] it's new

So everyone pays tithe to a single organization that creates 'trustable' units
of physical currency. So new!

At least with cash you're not destroying the physical currency every time you
use it. (That and the Mint's security measures are just a liittle more
advanced than "we put some epoxy on a USB stick")

------
unlmtd1
> “You’re broke even if you have money,” Mr. Jimenez, 40, said.

There are still gullible people who believe those so-called 'banks' actually
have their government paper bonds. Yes I purposefully used this term to
emphasize that those notes are _not_ cash or money. Money is a commodity, and
the paper credit is (should be) a receipt for it. A dollar is 1.505g of gold.

