
Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say - matt4077
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/23/world/asia/kim-jong-nam-vx-nerve-agent-.html
======
tlow
If we are talking about V-Series Agents, we might as well talk about the
secret Soviet Program to develop additional V-series compounds[1] that would
be undetectable by the west. It is important to note that there are many
vectors of entry for a V-series agent, and in this case, evidence points to an
atomized version, as opposed to the dermal administration which is more common
among this class. An atomized version targeting the respiratory system and not
the dermal would explain why two women attempting to aid "with bare hands"
would not have been harmed.

Beyond VX, there exist a plethora of other analogous chemicals, namely the
G-Series[2], VE[3], VG[4], VM[5], VR[6] and VP[7]. A notable commonality among
these compounds is that very little is known about their effects outside of
military research (ie not shared).

Given the military nature of these compounds, there is a reason to believe
that this was a military assassination.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent)

[2] Sarin is a G-series agent
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VE_(nerve_agent)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VE_\(nerve_agent\))

[4]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VG_(nerve_agent)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VG_\(nerve_agent\))

[5]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_(nerve_agent)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_\(nerve_agent\))

[6]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VR_(nerve_agent)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VR_\(nerve_agent\))

[7]
[https://books.google.com/books?id=DQw2hVGe0aMC&lpg=PA72&ots=...](https://books.google.com/books?id=DQw2hVGe0aMC&lpg=PA72&ots=eYb1G3m7Cl&dq=%2B%22vp%20nerve%22&pg=PA72#v=onepage&q=+%22vp%20nerve%22&f=false)

~~~
dmix
> not the dermal would explain why two women attempting to aid "with bare
> hands" would not have been harmed.

Can you explain exactly how they carried out the assassination without harming
themselves?

Each had two different compounds on their hands (or one with a rag?) and they
touched his face in sequence. Then only on his face did they combine to become
the nerve agent?

What about the last girl who touched his face, how was she not harmed? Was it
because he had to inhale it?

~~~
nabla9
At least one of the people involved claims that she did not know it was an
assassination. After this VX revelation it makes even more sense for actual
assassins use this tactics.

>Suspect in North Korea killing 'thought she was taking part in TV prank'
Indonesian Siti Aisyah, 25, duped and ‘not aware it was assassination attempt
by alleged foreign agents’, says head of police

>Indonesia’s national police chief, Tito Karnavian, told reporters in
Indonesia’s Aceh province that the Indonesian woman, 25-year-old Siti Aisyah,
was paid to be involved in pranks. He said she and another woman performed
stunts which involved convincing men to close their eyes and then spraying
them with water. “Such an action was done three or four times and they were
given a few dollars for it, and with the last target, Kim Jong-nam, allegedly
there were dangerous materials in the sprayer,” Karnavian said.

>“She was not aware that it was an assassination attempt by alleged foreign
agents.”

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/17/suspect-
north-...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/17/suspect-north-korea-
killing-thought-she-was-taking-part-in-tv-prank-indonesia-siti-aisyah-police-
kim-jong-nam)

------
sasas
Interesting tid-bit from Wikipedia [1]

 _In fiscal year 2008, the US Department of Defense released a study finding
that the U.S. had dumped at least 124 tons of VX into the Atlantic Ocean off
the coasts of New York /New Jersey and Florida, between 1969 and 1970. This
material consisted of nearly 22,000 M55 rockets, 19 bulk containers holding
1,400 pounds (640 kg) each, and one M23 chemical landmine._ [25]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)#US_VX_stockpi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_\(nerve_agent\)#US_VX_stockpile_elimination)

~~~
tlow
Yep. And who knows what the affects of that were. But I do not agree with the
claim that this is interesting in this context as it seems irrelevant to the
discussion.

~~~
sasas
> But I do not agree with the claim that this is interesting in this context
> as it seems irrelevant to the discussion

The discussion appears to be on the topic if we assume the topic is VX or
nerve agents in general. I assume this is in line with your intention for
posting a series of Wikipedia links on the subject in this thread, which I
found both relevant and interesting.

The reasons why I suggested that the dumping of large quantities of nerve
agents was an interesting fact is an inquisitive person may ask themselves -

\- Is the product still down there under the ocean?

\- What could be the environmental impact?

\- What were they thinking at the time to dump such a hazardous material? Why
didn't they use alternative means to destroy the material?

\- Was this standard practise back then? If so what other deadly man made
products are under the ocean?

\- If they are still working to eradicate 5,950 tons of nerve agents in a
single storage complex in Russia, how much did that country dump back during
the cold war and would we actually ever find out? TFA says the 5,950 tons is
only 14% of of Russian chemical weapons [1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)#Worldwide_VX_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_\(nerve_agent\)#Worldwide_VX_stockpile_elimination)

~~~
arprocter
>Was this standard practise back then? If so what other deadly man made
products are under the ocean?

[https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1wa1lrqxQpPqPXwnkmJ...](https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1wa1lrqxQpPqPXwnkmJ0fu9WMLDg&hl=en_US&ll=31.13111925331858%2C44.054968499999944&z=2)

~~~
sasas
Your link certainly addressed the question! Thank you.

------
andlier
There is a fascinating BBC-documentary about chemical warfare history and the
british Porton Down military research facility, hosted by Michael Mosley [0].
There is a part where the researcher actually makes sarin and VX right in
front of Michael in a fume-hood. They literally watch the VX-liquid condense
out of the vacuum distillation apparatus right in front of Mosley and the
camera team. [0]
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07hx40t](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07hx40t)

Edit: Program available here until mid March:
[https://tv.nrk.no/program/KOID23002916/mosley-og-de-
kjemiske...](https://tv.nrk.no/program/KOID23002916/mosley-og-de-kjemiske-
vaapnene) If you can VPN to Norway.

~~~
benages
You can also download the program with youtube-dl without a VPN.

~~~
pritambaral
Checked out how youtube-dl does it. Remarkably, nrk.no is satisfied with a
faked X-Forwarded-For header.

------
gwern
Does VX explain how the two women survived despite using bare hands to
administer an apparently skin-absorbable poison? It has binary agent
formulations, so each women could have one half on her hand and avoid any
contamination by swiping very fast.

~~~
crdb
> While addressing a spellbound audience of young officers, he would sometimes
> partially immerse one finger in a small beaker of pure VX for a few seconds.
> Without interrupting his lecture, he would then amble to a nearby sink and
> casually wash the deadly chemical from his finger. The teaching point was
> that VX could not enter the skin instantaneously, and that accidental
> exposure of a small area would not be harmful as long as the site were
> promptly and thoroughly decontaminated.

[https://www.amazon.com/Chemical-Warfare-Secrets-Almost-
Forgo...](https://www.amazon.com/Chemical-Warfare-Secrets-Almost-
Forgotten/dp/B01FKTZP3W/) \- Chemical Warfare Secrets Almost Forgotten: A
Personal Story of Medical Testing of Army Volunteers, by James S. Ketchum MD

~~~
jszymborski
I'm grateful for the edification, but dude, that's a very specific reference
from a >$100 (text?)book on a very particular subject. I'm afraid to ask about
your background :P

~~~
DKnoll
Library Genesis.

~~~
mombul
Thanks for the elaborate answer.

------
jbenz
The Rock came out when I was 13 so needless to say, I'm a big fan.

I absolutely thought VX Nerve Agent was fictional until today.

~~~
flukus
Not VX, but don't you remember this as well:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack)

~~~
mattnumbe
I actually ended up in the same article because VX is related to オウム真理教(Aum
Shinrikyo), the group that was responsible for the gas attacks in Tokyo. They
were also manufacturing VX and are the only ones on record to have used it to
commit a murder, until now I guess...
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo)

------
L_226
I had thought it was going to be a fentanyl or carfentanyl aerosol spray, I
suppose that might have rendered him incoherent sooner though. The use of VX
seems like bragging really (as if the act wasn't already adolescent enough).

~~~
M_Grey
Oh yeah... like using Polonium to kill Litvinenko... this is all about sending
a message.

~~~
L_226
Indeed, and the message was "I'm insecure about my position".

~~~
mc32
Someone insecure who does not retaliate is of little concern. Someone who can
retaliate or do away with people in remote places using extreme methods is
more about saying, "don't cross me or I will get you" and insecurity is kind
of irrelevant at that point. It's more I don't want to get on this woman/man's
bad side.

I'm also not sure it's plain insecurity. I'm sure there are people not too far
removed from him who if they could, would try to get to him -however, he goes
to extreme measures to ensure he neutralizes possible threats when identified
--including relatives and "old hands".

Although, being such a tyrant (insecure as he might be) why doesn't anyone of
the people at his core who live in fear for themselves and everyone else just
go on a final mission against him? It's not like he's the only one armed
--plus he'd have to remain awake 24x7.

~~~
M_Grey
It's probably a rare person who is sane, intelligent, capable of detailed
planning, and willing to potentially have a really nasty and protracted death.
It seems to me that far more often you have people who are deluded in some way
and don't perceive risk (bad planners, may not be particularly mentally fit),
rare cases of extremely violent mental illness (not sane, bad planners), the
highly motivated fanatic (good planner, sane, tends not to be the most
intelligent).

You need a lot of elements to come together to murder someone who is well
protected and expects to be the target of violence, while having a state to
protect them. The scary thing is that of course, sometimes, this does happen;
when it does there is very _very_ little that can be done to stop it, short of
you aforementioned 24x7 sleeping cycle.

~~~
mc32
It reminds me of the Stauffenberg plot. And then there are the bodyguards who
got Indira Gandhi --they did not care what happened to them, they "cared"
about carrying out their mission. Although, it's quite possible both were
equally motivated but one was just not lucky enough to carry things through.

~~~
groby_b
The Stauffenberg plot is pretty much evidence that assassinating somebody
protected by a large force is really, really, hard.

Not because that plot itself failed. But because it overshadows the truly
impressive number of other attempts at Hitler's life, all failed:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassination_attempts...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassination_attempts_on_Adolf_Hitler)

------
gerjomarty
It's not available right now, but I recommend a BBC doc "Inside Porton Down:
Britain's Secret Weapons Research Facility"[0], in which they showed nerve
agents like this being created.

[0]:
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07hx40t](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07hx40t)

------
sndean
I wonder if they used this binary combination: O-Ethyl
O-2-diisopropylaminoethyl methylphosphonite and sulfur [0][1]. Not sure if
that would be consistent with one being in a spray bottle.

[0]
[http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/831901-overview](http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/831901-overview)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QL_(chemical)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QL_\(chemical\))

~~~
tlow
It will likely never be known what compound, but the "spray bottle" tells us
that the agent was targeting respiratory system, not dermal. However the use
of V-Series agent is a strong indicator of military assassination as almost
all research on these chemicals is confined to secret military research. The
Russians have admitted to the synthesis of more than 100 more novel V-series
nerve
agents.[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent)

While I'm not convinced a binary compound was needed in this case, it is an
interesting theory!

~~~
aladoc99
"the "spray bottle" tells us that the agent was targeting respiratory system,
not dermal. "

I'm not sure this follows. If the cloth was impregnated with one of the binary
components and the other was sprayed on the cloth, then VX would be
synthesized right there in contact with the skin. I don't know that you could
be sure a lethal dose would be inhaled in one or two seconds.

~~~
jabl
I imagine NK is the sort of regime that doesn't have moral qualms about
testing this on, say, political prisoners, before using it in an actual
assassination attempt.

------
mtw
Doesn't North Korea has ICBM missiles capable of reaching Italy or Washington
DC?

A missile full of VX agent is scary to me. The most North KOrea can fit on a
missile is a warhead as powerful as Hiroshima's but a missile full of VX could
potentially kill everyone in Washington DC

Plus think of all the implications of transporting VX through international
borders. Did China accept having North Korean agents transporting VX in China?
Did they smuggle it through fish boats?

~~~
overcast
North Korea launching a weapon of mass destruction on anyone on this planet,
would ensure North Korea ceases to exist. They are just nonsense posturing,
and empty threats. In the end we say yes, yes, grand wizard of NK, you are the
best. Then we give them some money, and wait for their next silly display.

~~~
baybal2
>North Korea launching a weapon of mass destruction on anyone on this planet

This will mean that China has ordered them to do that. It will not happen in
any other way.

------
kchoudhu
Is the chemistry of VX well enough known that countries without access to it
can recognize it when they see it?

~~~
sgift
It is. See the various Wikipedia links given here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13720517](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13720517)
\- it also contains the chemical structure. That's actually one of the things
which makes chemical weapons far more dangerous than nuclear weapons - it is
comparatively easy to produce them without much specialized equipment.

~~~
kchoudhu
Well, that's terrifying.

------
Element_
Some other famous chemical assassination attempts:
[http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/a-look-at-assassination-
attempts...](http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/a-look-at-assassination-attempts-
involving-chemicals-1.3288236)

------
seesomesense
As a side note, in some poor, largely rural countries, acetylcholinesterase
inhibitors in insecticides are the most popular suicide agents.

------
amelius
How did they find the agent? Do they have a list of thousands of agents to
test against, and do they work down the list one by one? How does this work?

~~~
aladoc99
My guess is gas chromatography mass spectrometry, which yields a
characteristic signature for many compounds.

------
aedron
Does this remind anyone else of The Interview?

------
ransom1538
WHY?

Why kill people exotically? Why not just use a simple garrote with a thin
wire? 10 seconds done, the head would be practically off. I am _sure_ you
could get a weird pair of head phones past security. If you poison someone
with polonium/exotic nerve agent doesn't it _narrow_ down the suspect pool?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvine...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko)

~~~
NamTaf
Because slicing someone's head off requires you to be there, next to them, as
it happens. You're standing next to the body as it gargles and bleeds
everywhere and security will descend on you in a big way.

Wiping someone's face then bailing is something that the target will shrug off
as 'some crazy' until some time later it kills them. This buys you time to get
out of the place before anyone realises the full extent of what happened.
Hence why they're back in Pyongyang, out of the reach of any law enforcement.

Pyongyang doesn't _really_ care if the world knows it's them or not. I bet
they care much more if they lose their highly trained assassins, though.

~~~
rdtsc
I would even say it cares that other dissidents notice and understand exactly
who did it. Had this been a robbery or some car accident it would not have
been as effective. The message is "we are coming after you"

~~~
rukuu001
I remember a long time ago ('97) there was a major defection from the North
Korean camp to the South.

Couple days later, in Seoul, the North Koreans assassinated some other guy
who'd defected 10 years earlier.

Not only is the message "We're coming for you," but also "you can never feel
safe again."

~~~
dba7dba
I believe you are talking about a distant relative or nephew of the North
Korea's Kim family. I believe the victim was actually shot to death in front
of his home by someone with a pistol, which was a big news...

Touch choice. Stay in North Korea and be dragged off to labor camp or get
executed. Or defect and get assassinated years later.

------
throwaway_dbch
so quick to assume this was done by nk.

------
anigbrowl
I disapprove of assassination but I've got to admit this one scores 10/10 for
sheer style.

~~~
matt4077
Certainly the attempt to kill Castro, of all people, with an exploding cigar
should rank higher. Just imagine how that CIA brain storming went:

A: "We're tasked with killing Castro. Again. Any ideas? Anything? Nothing is
stupid! Castro! Go!

B: "Cigars"

C: "Boom!"

A: "I see we're in mind-melt here. No wonder the western world trusts us with
their lives during these troubling times"

If you insist on actually successful assassinations, and score it on cruelty
as well, using Polonium should win. The victim doesn't only die a miserable
death. It takes two weeks during which they can still give interviews, know
they're going to die, and even knows exactly who did it.

~~~
amyjess
And for sheer elegance, I'll give it to the assassination of Georgi Markov by
being poked with a ricin-tipped umbrella.

~~~
M_Grey
He was dead the very instant that ball was shot into him... he could have
realized what had happened that _instant_ and no one could have saved him; it
really was diabolical.

~~~
Gustomaximus
Are you dead? If you got a knife and cut out that section of skin/muscle
fairly quickly is it too late?

But it's terrifying. Also that video of the CIA people testifying about the
heart attack drug. I find the 'we dont know' if it was natural vs
assassination scarier as nefarious people are more able and probably willing
to use it. When you see all the type of things the CIA was up to 50/60/70's
there must be some crazy stuff we'll never know about.

~~~
M_Grey
I honestly don't know about how quickly you'd have to cut out the affected
region, or even amputate the limb. My guess is that if you were _very_ lucky
and it missed all major blood vessels, you'd have seconds to act decisively.
Maybe.

As to the rest, yeah definitely. Just consider the B2 bomber. I always wonder
what's hidden away being tested in the same way that was.

