

Kane Kramer is credited with inventing the digital audio player in 1979 - terhechte
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kane_Kramer

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tokenadult
I am a Wikipedian. Wikipedia articles like this are frequently used to argue
legal claims outside the court system. The sources of this article are
exceptionally poor (a tabloid newspaper notorious in Britain for sensational
articles) and not adequate to the task of demonstrating the claim in the
submission here (which is NOT the original article title, contrary to the HN
site guidelines).

<http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

I'm flagging this submission in the interest of keeping better quality
articles on the HN front page. If there is really some factual basis for the
claim in the submission title, there should be much better sources to submit.

~~~
terhechte
I originally read about this guy in a better researched article in a well
known German newspaper magazine (well, in their online version). But since the
original article was German, I couldn't really post it here, still found the
whole story interesting though. I also thought that fellow hackers might be
interested in this tale. So I searched a bit, and the best thing I could find
was the Wikipedia site. You're right though, it lacks sources.

For what it's worth, here's the link to the original German article.
[http://einestages.spiegel.de/s/tb/25583/kane-kramer-
erfinder...](http://einestages.spiegel.de/s/tb/25583/kane-kramer-erfinder-des-
ipod-urahnen.html)

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anonymouz
> However, in 1988 a boardroom dispute within Kramer's company and the
> subsequent failure to raise the £60,000 required to renew the patent
> resulted in the patent lapsing and the designs entered the public domain.

So he couldn't get a product to market within 9 years (many more actually,
since just because he lost the patent does not mean he wouldn't be able to
produce a player). Seems like the patent system sort of worked here in the
end. It would be much worse if he would still be holding the patent and could
collect revenues/damages from everyone producing MP3 players today.

~~~
tobiasu
The patent systems idealistic idea is to protect the inventor from the big
guys that copy his idea, because he himself does not have the necessary
capital to manufacture the product.

The patent system certainly didn't work here, even if the outcome is better
than if it did.

~~~
anonymouz
No, the point is to foster innovation by providing a _limited time_ monopoly
to the original inventor (whether that actually works is of course a different
question...), so that he can start manufacturing his product and have a decent
shot at getting a profit from it.

He got a chance, but failed to make anything out of his idea, and years later
other guys came along with the same idea. They most likely didn't really
"copy" him, they came up with the idea independently --- a digital audio
player is quite a natural evolution of, say, a Walkman. This time, some
companies managed to bring a product to the market. There's no reason why they
should pay him.

The patent system worked.

~~~
stan_rogers
The time-limited monopoly is part of the deal, yes, but the ultimate goal is
to prevent invention from being kept secret. The monopoly is granted
_specifically_ in return for the (eventual) public availability of the
invention. The reason behind the restrictions (obviousness, the existence of
prior art, etc.) is that no public good can be obtained in exchange for the
monopoly award.

Somewhere along the line, the idea that patents are meant to serve the public
good seems to have gotten lost...

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terhechte
What I find the most interesting (or rather sad) here, is that this kind of
feels like a legitimate case for a technological patent because this guy
invented the electronics, and foresaw a distribution mechanism just like
iTunes, even some kind of DRM. And just here the patent system fails, because
he wasn't able to pay the 60.000 pounds to extend the worldwide patents.

Wasn't the patent system originally devised for protecting businesses like
his? Small companies trying to be innovative and trying to compete with the
big guys.

This guy seems like a role model of what the patent system was designed for,
and just (or _even_ ) there it fails.

Also, 8mb in 1984 sounds like a lot of memory. I wonder what storage mechanism
/ technology he used.

~~~
LinaLauneBaer
I talked to a lawyer (who is also my friend) about the patent system in
Germany. I confronted him with the argument that patents cost so much money
and small businesses/normal people cannot afford patents. He then said that
this is true but you don't have to pay so much in most cases because of a
trick: You can send the patent agency your patent paper and tell them to not
evaluate it. They have to archive it for up to seven years and you only have
to pay about 500 Euros for this. Assuming your papers are valid you can claim
your "patent" at some point during the next seven years. If someone else files
the same paper he is out of luck because you filed it first but without
letting the agency evaluate it. I don't know if this is true (I trust my
friend in that regard) and it does not help everyone in every situation but in
may come in handy. Is anybody here who knows if this is actually the case?

~~~
adrinavarro
And what about prior art? For example, you actually release a digital audio
player but don't pay for the patent because you cannot afford it — you cannot
be sued and somebody else can't claim a patent over it. Supposedly.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_art>

~~~
LinaLauneBaer
One of my professors told me this:

In case you have a good idea you can simply write it down, print it out, sign
it and send it to yourself via certified paper mail. When you receive the mail
you don't open it. You simply put it in a safe place. Then you can use this to
prove prior art because its more or less a official document according to the
(German) law. Again: I am not a lawyer and this may be totally wrong...

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aristidb
I would not surprised if _hundreds_ of people have "invented" a fully digital
media-free audio player years or decades before Apple perfected it into a
consumer device.

This is a world of billions of people. Billions. The romantic idea of one
man/woman inventing something - without another man/woman inventing the same
unknowingly - is just not realistic for most things.

~~~
lurkinggrue
I had a conversation about the idea in 1987. Hell! In 1993 me and a group at a
company were spitballing ideas for the video technology we had and came up
with a home DVR. Hard drives were not quite up for the task for that so the
idea got shelved.

To quote Heinlein:

“When railroading time comes you can railroad—but not before.”

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rheide
I found the link to Bubble memory
(<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_memory>) in that article fascinating. I
never thought that memory could work like that. The tutorial is also useful:
<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/How_bubble_memory_works>

------
BrianPetro
> Kramer also says he has plans that would end copyright infringement
> altogether, however no details on this project have been released.

This statement is what caught my eye. Kind of ironic though.

~~~
monochromatic
That statement in particular makes him sound kind of like a crank.

~~~
hnriot
And looking at his website agrees, he's stuck in the past and doesn't even
have a photo if his device. Wikipedia claims he made prototypes that worked,
so I would have thought that he would show off an actual working unit instead
of a sketch.

I suspect he just never got it to work. And as others have said a digital
music player was very likely conceived and invented by many people. The whole
world was going digital in the 80's/90's everything from clocks to cameras to
toasters to tv, so the little Walkman was an obvious stepping stone to a
digital music player.

Apple didn't even invent the digital music player, they just put a click wheel
on their design which was better than the competitions interface and the rest
is history...

As an anecdotal aside, i went to see the new nano in the sf apple store and
noticed that its in the back and I was the only person looking, on a very busy
Saturday afternoon. I think the digital music player has finally reached its
newspaper moment. The abundance of smartphones has made p&s cameras, watches
and portable muaic players unnecessary. To to mention GPS navigation systems,
atlases, encyclopedia...

~~~
jedberg
Nano sales should pick up around Xmas time, because those seem to be what
parents give to kids instead of smart phones (source: my wife is a 4th grade
teacher and a bunch of kids seem to have them).

