
Germans abandon hope of US 'no-spy' treaty - f_salmon
http://www.thelocal.de/20140114/germany-gives-up-hope-of-no-spy-deal-with-nsa-usa
======
sentenza
Here is an important point for the non-Germans, so that you can understand why
this was even asked for:

Unlike the German rabble, its political leaders (with very rare exceptions)
are personally invested in the "trans-atlantic partnership". The underlying
assumption on the German side is of course that this is a partnership among
equals.

Team Merkel is hoping sooo bad that a high-ranking US official will come out
to tell them that they haven't been just a bunch of chumps. I wonder how they
will react now that it has become clear that that won't happen.

They'll probably just step up their self-delusion game.

~~~
Argorak
Another piece of info that is missing: there were elections in germany last
autumn. Going into negotiations for a "no-spy" agreement also meant that the
administration could say that they are doing something. Even though the
negotiations have now turned out worthless (kind of predictable...), the
elections are over now and they are in safe waters.

------
marcuspovey
Possibly, this may actually be a good thing, at least as far as the internet
is concerned. When governments realise that they can't get any "special
exemptions" put in for them, the only real option left open is to throw their
weight behind measures to secure the internet for everybody.

~~~
aluhut
Problem here is: the german intelligence agencies rely on the US. So we may
see some political show on the surface but beneath that, nothing will happen.
If we (the Germans) are unlucky, it may even end up in a show where the
politicians tell us that we need more secret agency involvement to "protect us
from the US" which of course will only end up as another excuse to collect
even more data. Same thing they tried to sell us with the "Schlandnet" where
T-Online would take over the control within Germany. There was a interesting
show on the 30C3 on this.

------
robrenaud
US gives FU to Germany with the lack of a no-spy treaty.

Germany should respond by giving asylum to Snowden.

~~~
PythonicAlpha
Of course, giving asylum to Snowden would definitively give a signal to
Washington, but I would _not_ advice Snowden to go to Germany.

With the current situation in Germany, Snowden would be dead or in a plane to
Guantanamo in very little time. And I guess, even the German BND (comparable
to the US NSA) would be helping. I would not trust any promises from a current
German government -- by the way, how many US troops are in Germany? I guess,
there is no count for US spies yet.

~~~
wahsd
He knew what he was doing by going to Russia by way of Hong Kong. He's a damn
smart guy that guy. I am curious what will happen when his asylum runs out.
Technically speaking, by international law he should be fine as Russia will
have legal standing to provide him permanent asylum based on the threat to his
life.

We have to remember, we are talking about our government, the same types that
while fighting a war on drugs are also making deals with the Cartels that
consolidates power under one and permits import of drugs into our country.

~~~
PythonicAlpha
You should definitively watch the film "The House I Live In" (One of the
producers was Brad Pitt) it is an eye-opening documentation about the US drug
policy. It shows, that even that is just a mock-up to fool people.

------
socrates1998
The US government doesn't realize the implications of their actions. A day
will come when the US needs German help, support, or assistance in an area of
global importance and the Germans will be very reluctant to help because of
this.

The USA has had it good for a long time and has become very spoiled by it's
priviledges.

Essentially, the US overplayed it's hand and there will be blow-back
consequences.

I could imagine a terrorist living in Germany and the US asks for assistance
obtaining him and the Germans tell the US to fuck off.

It doesn't even have to be a terrorist, it could be a person like Snowden. So,
now, instead of assisting the US government, the Germans are actively working
against them.

Or, I could see the Germans investing heavily in developing technologies that
prevent spying. Germany could become a place where you learn how to NOT be
spied on.

All this because the US Government doesn't know how to treat allies and
respect sovereignty.

~~~
grecy
I genuinely hope a whole bunch of countries get together and stop using the
USD altogether. Make the Euro the standard for Gold and Oil, etc, stop trading
on the US-based stock markets, etc. etc.

America's economy is it's greatest vulnerability, and other countries could do
great damage to it if they banded together and gave them the finger back.

~~~
drjesusphd
There's a school of thought that the "Axis of Evil", invasions of Iraq and
Afghanistan, and the ongoing antagonization of Iran and Venezuela are all
demonstrations to the world at large of the extent to which the US would
respond to such a move.

~~~
grecy
100%.

Australia wasn't going to send troops into the illegal Iraq war... then they
did and within a couple of weeks signed never-before-seen trade deals with the
US that were extremely good for the Australian economy.

When asked if he was pressured into making that decision or lose all trade
with the US, the Prime Minster looked straight at the camera with a "what was
I going to do" expression, and said nothing.

------
sschueller
Another big problem is German sovereignty. Many laws need fixing as they still
give the US enormous control over what they can do in Germany.

~~~
DangerousPie
Do you have some examples for this?

~~~
jeena
Not exactly paragraphs but I have a link to SVG on Wikimedia which explains it
quite good I think:
[http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_military_bases_in_...](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_military_bases_in_Germany.svg)

~~~
brazzy
Explains or proves absolutely nothing.

~~~
jeena
Perhaps with a little bit history background it gets a little bit more clear.
Germany lost WW2 and was divided between the allies (USA [south], France
[west], UK [north], Russia [east]), the rest was given to Poland for their
lost areas in the east which are now mostly Ukraina.

After the end of the cold war the British reduced their bases to 4 (and those
will be gone by 2019 too), the Russians left 1994 and the French, I don't
know, would need to look it up.

The US has afair about 40k troops in Germany. They use Germany for their bases
to be closer to the hot spots like Iraq and Afganistan. You might say that 40k
is not much, but the whole German Bundeswehr has only 186k soldiers, so 40k is
quite a lot of foreign soldiers (+ the british and french leftovers). That is
of course after a big reduction after the end of the cold war.

You could say that it does not explain or prove anything but it does. It
explains why even if Germany were independent economy wise (which their are
not) they still wouldn't be able to say "Fuck you NSA".

~~~
brazzy
It is still meaningless in the context of this discussion because an actual
military confrontation between the USA and Germany is not a realistic scenario
no matter how the NSA thing washes out.

They could very much say "Fuck you NSA and the horse you rode in on and your
little dog as well", and all it would lead to is lengthy diplomatic posturing
and economic damage to both sides (and the USA is at least as dependant on
Germany economywise as the other way round).

------
fit2rule
How ironic will it be if the next generation of German kids has to rise up to
fight the totalitarian might of the USA? I see it happening, already .. truly
a staggering circumstance that we are here now in the 21st Century, and not
even Germany can stand up to the tyrants.

~~~
gadders
The US are tyrants? Seriously?

~~~
phaer
In the context of international politics they are a clear match for most
definitions of tyranny. Killing civilians based on behavioral profiles (look
up "signature strikes drones") without any declaration of war against the
countries in question (Pakistan, Yemen) is just one example. The relations
between the US and most south-american countries is another one.

~~~
josefresco
Official declaration of war on a state entity is almost _quaint_ given how
modern conflicts are now waged. If only it were as easy as declaring war on
country "X" with complete disregard for native and non-native controlling
factions.

What happens when your old rules of warfare aren't followed by your new enemy?
Do you stand by those rules or adapt to the new reality?

Targeted drone strikes based on human _and_ data intelligence is light years
beyond declaring official war and shelling/bombing an entire region to the
ground with no regard to what side the inhabitants may be on.

~~~
eliasmacpherson
Not if your intelligence is worthless. If your intelligence is worthless, it's
almost indiscernible.

You're creating a false dichotomy between "targeted" drone strikes and
shelling and bombing an entire region. By the way, each perpetrator of
shelling and bombing entire regions has historically made similar claims of
"targeting/precision".

~~~
josefresco
Your points are right on, and I think as technology gets better, civilian
deaths do decrease. However what happens is we start to cringe at the
effectiveness of a cruise missile or drone attack forgetting that the
alternative is bloodier, more dangerous and arguably a lot less effective.

How do we balance our tolerance for casualties with our tolerance of more and
more effective weapons?

My point was not to say that drone strikes were wrong or right, only that the
technology shouldn't be on trial, the intelligence, effectiveness and purpose
should be.

I'm sure when airplanes and modern firearms took over the battlefield many
thought they were "unfair" and dehumanized the process or war. And I don't
doubt that in the future we'll be equally scared of newer more effective
weapons.

~~~
eliasmacpherson
It's not a war. No more than the war on drugs is a war.

I don't agree that as technology gets better that the number of civilian
deaths decrease. I would point to the atom bomb and chemical warfare. As drone
technology gets cheaper, I don't see why civilian deaths would decrease. This
is not an argument for ludditism.

You're presenting regional carpet bombing as the only alternative. This is not
the case. There are alternatives other than drone strikes, and regional
bombing that you seem to be ignoring.

Using your terms, how many countries is the US at "war" with:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_mili...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations#2010.E2.80.93present)
These are not wars, this is unilateral, self appointed world policing.

Unfortunately, the drone technology is not sufficient to guarantee accuracy.
You can tell this because of how civilian deaths have been "redefined" by the
US administration and the US military. Both refuse to publish their
statistics. Historically, US intelligence has been anything but accurate,
maybe the refusal to publish is another example of this.

I question the effectiveness of attacking funerals and weddings half way
across the world, under the guise of preventing terrorism. Particularly with
spectacular failures recently making the news.

The technology is not on trial, the US's reputation is. The technology has
already been shown to be bunkum - the US's defence is that it's cheap bunkum.
This isn't progress on any front. The US does not need cheap drone strikes in
these countries, nor does it need to bomb the regions.

It's not the weapons people are scared of, it's who is using them.

[0]
[http://www.livingunderdrones.org/numbers/](http://www.livingunderdrones.org/numbers/)

[1] [http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2013/10/25/confessions-of-
an-a...](http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2013/10/25/confessions-of-an-american-
drone-warrior/)

[2]
[http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/29/drones-...](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/29/drones-
us-military)

------
mathattack
What's the point of a No Spy treaty if people will break it anyway? Being a
cynic, if you're going to spy anyway, isn't it better to have a situation
where everyone knows that everyone else is spying, and have fake outrage? (I'm
assuming that the treaty won't stop anything)

~~~
wahsd
Well, if you say "no, really, ...now...this time stop lying and cheating and
stalking. Ok, we're good not, right." then it will mean something.

~~~
mathattack
I will only believe it if they preface it with "honestly" or "frankly". :-)
Where is Orwell when we need him?

------
captainmuon
The German government was hardly really negotiating a no-spy treaty. They
benefit too much from the exchange with the US (at least that's what they
think). Remember, the NSA is not supposed to spy on US citizens, just as the
German BND is not supposed to spy on Germans. So they spy on each other's
citizens and exchange the information.

So far so good for Merkel and friends. What probably upsetted them was that
the German government was spied upon, too. Also, they were just second-grade
allies, and the US was probably trading information with the UK for example,
which they didn't share with the Germans (see the "Five Eyes" agreements). But
it's hard to believe that any of this is news to the German government, if
their intelligence agencies are any of their money worth.

So the big question is, why do they tolerate being spied on? I know, diplomacy
is complicated, and you have to make a lot of delicate compromises, and there
is a lot that you can't see from outside.

Nevertheless... Espionage is already punishable in Germany. If a German
citizen is involved, they might even be charged with treason. If I were
Merkel, I would just casually mention the possibility of pressing charges in
this case (you can file charges against anonymous in Germany), and use this as
leverage e.g. when negotiating trade agreements.

~~~
PythonicAlpha
All is right, except the last paragraph.

That is just theoretical stuff. Yes, theoretical there might be something like
"treason" in some old law book .... But, I don't remember one "treason"
prosecution in my life time in Germany, with exception maybe to the DDR-Spy
with Willi Brand as chancellor ... wow is this long ago! Also, I think there
should be filed charges against many people in Germanys current government
because they don't stop the US to spy on German people and companies openly.
But nothing happens.

Why, because in Germany there is no independent judiciary at all. There will
be no prosecution without federal prosecutor, but all of them have to obey the
government -- so no member of government or top politician will ever be
prosecuted in Germany, whatever evil they do against the country or the
people.

Germans should start understanding, that they don't live in freedom at all. It
is just a mock-up.

~~~
junto
> Germans should start understanding, that they don't live in freedom at all.
> It is just a mock-up.

Replace Germans with "Everyone".

~~~
PythonicAlpha
Ok, you are right. But I wanted to make a statement about Germans in
particular.

~~~
junto
I know. I was just going out of my way to be depressing. :-)

------
Nanzikambe
Were they able to secure such a treaty, why would there be any expectation
that it'd be meaningful?

After all there's and obvious disconnect between the various spy agencies and
political process, with the former typically giving less than lip service to
most treaties/laws in the past.

~~~
harryf
> Were they able to secure such a treaty, why would there be any expectation
> that it'd be meaningful?

I would be very meaningful in a symbolic sense. Germany and most of Western
Europe are used to seeing themselves as close allies of the US since WW2.

With close allies you expect to be able to reach an acceptable level of trust
on topics like spying, even though you know both sides are still going to do
it at some level.

By not being able to sign this agreement the message for Germans / US
relations is "we trust you just like we trust the Chinese". That will likely
lead to a weakening of past alliances...

~~~
igl
Germany is not a sovereign country, there is no peace contract. "Seeing
themselves as close allies" is kinda lol looking from the fact that we are
occupied since 60 years.

~~~
f_salmon
The fact that Germany still allows the presence and construction of extremely
expensive and big NSA surveillance centers (tapping into German
infrastructure) such as the "Dagger complex" [0] certainly says a lot with
regards to "sovereignty".

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger_Complex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger_Complex)

~~~
brazzy
"extremely expensive and big"? You're joking, right? Look at the pictures...
or are you claiming there's some gigantic underground complex underneath those
two small office buildings?

------
bananacurve
The article directly contradicts itself.

>A government spokesman said the talks between the US and Germany were ongoing
and they hoped to “get something in the next three months.”

~~~
enkephalin
that is the official statement. the rest of the statements were made by an
anonymous source, with inside information.

------
PythonicAlpha
This was only a cover-up by the Merkel administration to win the election in
last autumn. Of course, some people that where in the delegation wanted to get
some little success to bring home ... but the US showed that they are the
rulers and the US is the big boss.

I hope, that slowly some people in Germany wake up. The success of Merkel
shows, that many still dream their econony wonder (German:
"Wirtschaftswunder") dream of the 70s. But the Germans do not realize, that
they have been mucked around. Germans are the country in Europe that has sold
their interests most to the US, maybe with the exception of Britain.

~~~
king_phil
Some people realized that years ago, others still don't. It is a shame but
Merkel is very popular, especially with older people that don't understand the
implications of the NSA scandal.

~~~
PythonicAlpha
Yes, it is a shame. It is also a shame, that even younger people and even tech
people have voted for Merkel.

I guess, egoistic behavior and stupidity is just very widespread.

------
alexeisadeski3
I grew up in the US often hearing stories of Israeli intel agencies spying on
the US. 'Everyone spies on everyone, even allies, it's no big deal,' was what
everyone always said.

~~~
quantumpotato_
Did you grow up with spies?

~~~
alexeisadeski3
How would I have known!

------
fafner
Besides the valid points already raised in the discussion it also shows that
the US isn't considering the German intelligence service as a threat. Either
because they expect German politicians not having the balls to order it to spy
on the US government or because they consider it too incompetent to do so or
because they have it in their pockets.

------
theandrewbailey
After reading this, I clicked on the "6 quotes on Germany from Americans"
gallery. MLK Jr said "Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was
legal."

Kinda hits the NSA nail on the head.

