
Microsoft introduces Windows Phone 8 - soupboy
http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/20/microsoft-introduces-windows-phone-8/
======
sjwright
When Steve Jobs returned to Apple, he made it really clear that Apple's job
wasn't to beat Microsoft. Apple then delivered on that assessment and created
entirely new markets for themselves.

Sadly, somehow, Microsoft went all XOR on our asses. I'm still baffled about
how Microsoft is still trying to out-Apple Apple when they've repeatedly
proven it's a disastrous strategy (see: Zune).

Microsoft are kings of productivity software and the corporate desktop. They
own business communications. They own corporate email. So when it comes to
revitalizing their phone product, they focus on the twittering tweens?

Is it just me, or is it not freaking obvious that Microsoft should focus on
building the ultimate business phone? Something that corporations around the
world would deploy to every single employee in a heartbeat?

Hey, RIM is struggling. Perhaps Microsoft could stand to fork out a Skype-
sized bundle of cash to buy them out.

~~~
powertower
> when they've repeatedly proven it's a disastrous strategy (see: Zune).

That's not the best example to use of Microsoft's failure.

Every time Zune has been brought up for discussion here, I've seen primarily
two types of responses...

From people that actually owned a Zune: _Fantastic product (better than my
Apple iPod)_.

From people that never owned or tried a Zune: _It's absolute crap (I've never
seen any of my iPod friends with one)_.

The iPod users verbal diarrhea was so thick, that MS's marketing department
couldn't cut through it. One iPod user would regurgitate it down another's
mouth, and soon everyone had fed on the same crap.

Watching their "network effect" was kind of impressive.

~~~
csmeder
I was given a Zune. It was well made and easy to navigate, much better than
the Archos I bought before I bought my iPod. If the Zune had been released
before the iPod, it would have been an impressive piece of hardware. A great
product! However it wasn't. I tried really hard to enjoy my Zune. It felt like
a waste just to throw it away.

The problem was that it was almost as good as my iPod. Releasing a product
that is almost as good as a product that came out 3 years earlier doesn't
work. If you are going to release 3 years late, you have to be better. I agree
with the above comment, Microsoft will fail it tries to beat apple where it is
strong. Microsoft either needs to find a "Steve Jobs" who can drastically
change its company culture or stop tying to compete with apple on consumer
products.

Note: I am being generous when I say it was almost as good. It had downsides.
In particular the companion software to load up music was a bad experience.

My guess is that when people say they loved their Zune, its because they
wanted to love it. If you gave the same person an iPod (and they were being
impartial) my guess is they would choose the iPod.

However, I don't think its likely these Zune owners were impartial. It would
not be a big surprise if most people who bought and defend the Zune are
Microsoft Zealots that want to find reasons to prove Microsoft is great and
Apple is bad.

~~~
Jare
I can't believe you just complained about the Zune software in a comparison
with Apple's stuff. iTunes is the most amazing piece of garbage I've ever been
forced to use for so long.

I bought an iPod in 2005, it was a nice piece of gear for sure, but for some
random reason I ended up buying a Zune in 2007, and the iPod never saw the
light again until I managed to break the Zune. The main reason for that is I
never wanted to see iTunes again. I would have succeeded were it not for my
damn company-provided iPhone! :)

~~~
rbanffy
> iTunes is the most amazing piece of garbage I've ever been forced to use for
> so long.

I don't have that many complaints about it. It looks weird on Windows, of
course, but it blends in nicely on a Mac. From your comment, I assume you
haven't used Sharepoint.

~~~
robert_nsu
I use Sharepoint everyday. I hate it and iTunes equally. I use the Zune
software everyday. I have it installed on all of my computers. I can't say
that it is perfect, but it is leaps and bounds better than iTunes in my
opinion.

------
desigooner
I get a chuckle out of reading people's views w.r.t. Microsoft. There are a
good number who complain about lack of innovation & how Microsoft invests too
much time in supporting legacy systems and that they should totally get rid of
the CE core. Then there's the other end of the spectrum where Microsoft is
stupid to stop supporting certain platforms because they're clearly not
thinking about the users who use those systems.

~~~
RyanMcGreal
Joel Spolsky famously wrote about those competing imperatives in a 2004 essay
on the API war:

<http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html>

"There are two opposing forces inside Microsoft, which I will refer to,
somewhat tongue-in-cheek, as The Raymond Chen Camp and The MSDN Magazine
Camp."

The former is obsessed with backwards compatibility, and the latter is
obsessed with the Next New Thing. Spolsky's thesis was that the latter won
out, to Microsoft's long-term detriment.

~~~
barista
Spolsky worked at Microsoft years ago. Not sure how relevant and current his
knowledge is...

~~~
ams6110
He wrote that piece in 2004, though.

------
WiseWeasel
It's strange to me that the company once renowned for maintaining backwards
compatibility and established workflows well past what most customers might
expect or demand has recently been so blasé about throwing their installed
base under the bus. It's becoming hard to remember that Microsoft was once
synonymous with a stable development platform.

Just from a UX point of view, starting with the ribbon interface in Office
2007, it seems like the company has become much more willing to change things
around drastically without any apparent effort to help their customers make
the transition gracefully. The Win Mobile to Win Phone 7 to Win Phone 8
transition has been equally disjointed, and the Windows 8 release seems to
bring that level of adventurism to their bread-and-butter desktop platform.

Are these people regular crazy, or crazy like a fox?

~~~
phren0logy
>blasé about throwing their installed base under the bus.

What user base? I for one am thrilled to see Microsoft responding with what
seems to be an appropriate level of urgency.

~~~
WiseWeasel
Does that mean that the architecture of Win Phone 7 was a mistake? That it was
never really part of a long-term strategy to transition from Win Mobile to Win
Phone 8? Does Microsoft really intend to churn through platforms that quickly?
It makes you wonder how far ahead they're planning things out over there, and
whether this is a platform you should hitch your wagon to as a developer.

~~~
phren0logy
Windows 7 was well-reviewed based largely on it's UI (as far as I could tell).
Microsoft has kept a lot of that, but the underpinnings are now shared with
their tablet (which makes sense) and desktop OS (not sure if that makes sense,
but whatever).

Seems like a move that's designed to be more sustainable in the long-term by
uniting their efforts. Personally, this move would make me more comfortable
buying a Win8 tablet and/or phone.

~~~
WiseWeasel
Until they switch directions again in a couple years, to whichever way the
winds shift. I'm not quite sure if anyone's at the wheel.

~~~
barista
Windows Phone 8 is based of windows core, the same core that is bread and
butter for the company and is something synonymous with Microsoft. There is no
switch from directions possible here

------
druiid
Wow, really Microsoft? You don't know better by now that if you're going to
release a platform, hype is up like crazy and then basically leave people
hanging... that it kills hardware/software communities?

The WP8 features sounds great, but where does that leave my Lumia 900? I
really love the phone and well, it sounds like I'm SOOL.

~~~
toyg
Welcome to the Nokia experience. I bought a N900 in 2010, and I was literally
thrown under the bus not once (when Maemo was replaced by Meego), not twice
(when the N9 debuted with a completely different UI) but three times (when
they switched to WP7 even before the N9 was shipped).

Meanwhile MS was busy killing off WinMobile, then Kin, and now WP7.

And they wonder how Apple can get such faithful developers... A real
mistery...

~~~
barista
Glad you didn't go android. Because their upgrade experience is not any
different.

------
cryptoz
> incompatible with current devices

Interesting. This may well be the right move for the long-term, but they're
going to end up with a lot of angry early adopters right now. Android upgrades
look nice all of a sudden.

~~~
ttol
I think cutting all the legacy is a good move -- start over from scratch. They
have the wherewithal to round developer support (and also leverage their Xbox
relationships), so cutting baggage is a good idea.

~~~
danieldk
I have a Windows Phone (Lumia 710) besides my iPhone, that I bought two weeks
ago. The phone itself was released in Europe in November 2011. And now it's
outdated/legacy already?

It breaks trust. How would I know that if I buy a WP 8 phone that it will be
supported with upgrades a year down the line?

~~~
desigooner
Wouldn't such criticisms be valid for Android as well?

~~~
cryptoz
Depends. No such criticism can be said of Android as an OS, but you could
certainly make good arguments directed at the ecosystem in general. The
interesting thing here isn't that the upgrade isn't compatible, it's that most
people would expect Microsoft to support older systems. It's a break in their
character. Maybe a good one? We'll see.

~~~
barista
So it is delivering an update for those phones too. Additionally there is a
promise to support OTA upgrade of all released devices for 18 months. What
android phone has that commitment?

~~~
cryptoz
> What android phone has that commitment?

To the best of my knowledge, all pure Android phones have that, plus more in
some cases (the Nexus line). Additionally, many of the higher-end ones from
other manufacturers likely do as well.

~~~
barista
Source?

and what percentage of android phones are these pure android devices?

------
glhaynes
What is it about its requirements that keep it from running on anything that
exists today? The article just seems to talk about how it _can support_ higher
specs? (I ask because it'd better be a really, _really_ good reason that it
can't run on anything existing because that doesn't seem like good news for
anybody.)

------
gouranga
I just sold my Lumia 710 and replaced it with a 10 year old Nokia 3310. Looks
like i picked the right time i.e. Before the value bombs.

For ref it was sold because the battery life is abysmal, there is no upgrade
path and the mic doesn't work properly.

------
debacle
This is more terrible news for Nokia.

~~~
danieldk
Windows Phone 8 is an operating system, not a phone.

~~~
thejake
But who is going to buy a Windows Phone 7 device now? Nokia's already poor
device sales is going to fall off a cliff.

~~~
sjwright
For that matter, who is going to buy a Windows Phone 8 device now, since
there's no reason to believe it will run Windows Phone 9?

~~~
falling
For that matter, who is going to buy an Android 2.3 device now, since there's
no reason to believe it will run Android 4.0?

~~~
sjwright
Or an iPhone 3GS, since there's... oh, wait... and it was released when? ...
2009 you say? Astonishing.

\---------

EDIT: For the narrative impaired, I _am_ saying that the 3GS is still being
supported with major software upgrades despite being three years old, in stark
contrast to all other major smartphone platforms.

~~~
konstruktor
You mean the 3GS from 2009 that _will_ be supported by their pending iOS 6
release?

~~~
sjwright
Astonishing.

------
zdw
iPhone 3GS, released June 2009 and iPhone 4, release June 2010, both get iOS 6
(albeit with fewer features than an iPhone 4S).

No Windows Phone 7 is getting Windows Phone 8.

Supporting older hardware = brand loyalty, and environmental responsibility.

Yes an iPhone costs more - it's also going to be updated for longer...

~~~
rome
Current Windows 7 phones are getting updates, 7.8. Contrast this with the
original iPad which won't get ios 6 and it was released in 2010.

~~~
pohl
There's a legitimate reason for excluding the original iPad, though: it has to
push four times the pixels as the iPhone 3GS, while still being limited by the
same 256M of RAM that the 3GS has. Apparently at least one essential
application (my guess would be Mobile Safari at least, probably many apps)
couldn't provide an acceptable user experience within that constraint.

Perhaps there's a legit reason for the current Windows 7 phones, though. Does
anybody know?

~~~
MatthewPhillips
I vote that "different kernel" qualifies as a legitimate reason too.

~~~
robert_nsu
Thank you. I'm glad someone else sees this. If a developer writes a NFC
enabled app that finds its way on to previous generation phones, the support
alone will be an utter nightmare.

------
forgotAgain
Remember those WP7 commercials that called Android phones betas? Well I guess
Microsoft was having a beta program of their own. Such nice guys these Redmond
folk are.

------
robomartin
If Microsoft delivers on the Phone <-> Tablet <-> Desktop connection, with:

    
    
      - A decent ecosystem
      - Free from totalitarian-regime control
      - Access and compatibility with a wide range of current hardware devices:
        - USB mice/trackball
        - USB external drives
        - Monitors
        - Keyboards
        - Printers
        - Speakers
        - HID devices
        - Bluetooth without requiring a proprietary chip
        - Non-proprietary peripherals in general
        - USB memory sticks
        - And generally anything that can connect to the device
        - Without requiring the King to bless what you are doing
      - Freedom from the 30% death-tax on mobile devices
      - Freedom to write any app you care to for mobile and tablet without 
        the need for Royal authorization
      - No requirement to buy super-custom-secret chips to do hardware
      - No onerous requirements for expensive approval process on hardware
      - Easy and publisher-controlled app updates
      - Decent device pricing
      - Wide availability
      - Interoperability with existing systems
      - Application compatibility (Desktop <-> Tablet)
      - Sensible app deployment requirements without having to package megabytes of
        crap you don't need for a phone just because you also want to offer the 
        app on a tablet that has greater resolution.
      - And a few more things I can't think of right now
    

I, for one, will cast my vote and support their efforts both as a developer
and consumer. If anything because I have a very strong feeling that Apple
needs serious competition to remain in check. They have taken a far too
totalitarian approach to their offerings and it is not getting any better.

Of course, I'll continue to support Apple as well. Just hope they see the
light and consider taking off their sometimes-not-so-benevolent-dictator hat.

~~~
slowpoke
_> They have taken a far too totalitarian approach to their offerings and it
is not getting any better._

You might have missed the part about Microsoft being equally as eager to lock
down everything they can get away with. This isn't going to make things
better, it's going to be worse.

------
ConstantineXVI
Seems to be an odd decision to share the kernel with Win8, but not
(explicitly) the WinRT SDK. It would seem in Microsoft's best interest to make
sure bringing apps between the two is a recompile away; the way it's being
phrased the SDK doesn't sound like it's absolutely 100% compatible.

~~~
weiran
Has this been explicitly stated? I'm hoping they do unify under the single
WinRT framework.

~~~
ConstantineXVI
They've only said "minimal code changes", "two days of work"; also only
mentioned native code in the context of games and nothing to suggest support
for HTML/JS-based apps (which would imply WinRT support). "Recompile + UI
tweaks" would be a headline feature for the SDK, not stating such outright
leads me to believe this isn't the case.

EDIT: just said that the CLR is now identical between phone and W8, but again
"share more code", still not naming WinRT.

~~~
daeken
They said that native code is going to be supported. That tells me WinRT will
be as well; it's not like people are going to be writing MFC apps for it.

~~~
ConstantineXVI
They only seem to be recommending it for games, implying you can't run the UI
with it [https://skitch.com/constantinexvi/enb3e/windows-phone-
summit...](https://skitch.com/constantinexvi/enb3e/windows-phone-summit-
channel-9)

~~~
bztzt
Although they didn't come out and say this, the impression I get is they are
bringing over the WinRT APIs for lower-level stuff like networking, etc.,
while the XAML UI stuff is an extension of the Silverlight in WP7x rather than
a port or adaptation of Windows.UI.Xaml from Windows 8.

If that's what they're doing, I think it's the right decision - the UI
conventions themselves are different between the phone and Windows 8 (more
than people realize, despite having a similar visual aesthetic), so you'd have
to rewrite much of the UI anyway - so why break compatibility with WP7.x.

------
nsns
Am I the only one who thinks of both Microsoft and Apple as simply two of the
biggest gamblers in the game? No one knows yet how the recent technological
changes will look when the market becomes stable, it is too early to tell.
Apple has gambled quite good three or four times in recent years, as did MS
before them, and both were always at each other's throats (Jobs' accused MS of
stealing Windows from Apple). Both have had their low points. While there's a
new big gambler in town (Google), the picture hasn't really changed much for
the past 30 years.

------
cantbecool
Not even an upgrade even for the Lumina?

~~~
KeyBoardG
Lumia will get WinPhone 7.8 which includes all the UI updates but leaves out
the features which requires more advanced hardware.

~~~
onetwothreefour
LOL.

Native languages do not "require more advanced hardware", since you can
already use native languages on iOS and Android hardware.

Are you people brainwashed? WP7 is dead.

~~~
KeyBoardG
The native APIs and all that support work is built into the updated kernel...
That is the point. Don't be so quick to point out superficial faults on
internet comments.

------
ja27
I suspect the lack of upgrade path was planned well before the Lumia 900
actually found a bit of traction with consumers. Wave goodbye to that
momentum. That would be a big blow to Nokia. Does that drive their price down
even lower until Microsoft buys them out? We'll see.

------
fratido
"Compiling in the cloud" - So i'll have to give my sources to Microsoft? Great
for security checking, but hey - they can read my code and gain knowledge from
it? That's just doesn't feel right.

~~~
kineticflow
>So i'll have to give my sources to Microsoft?

No, they never said that. In fact, just now (during the developer part of the
presentation) the presenter mentioned that it will "just work".

------
stewie2
yes, finally supports C++.

~~~
forrestthewoods
Not sure why this was downvoted, C++ support is _huge_. The biggest thing
holding Win Phone 7 back was requiring C#. Meant every iOS/Android app needed
to be rewritten from scratch which obviously isn't going to happen for
anything but the absolutely most popular stuff.

~~~
stewie2
Yes, C++ is the most power efficient programming language. I have been waiting
for this feature.

------
WrkInProgress
Whenever MS does one of these presentations, they always seem to get 90% of
the way there in terms of polish, focus and message.

Why are they even bothering with branding "Windows Phone 7.8" ?

They should have just named the update "Windows Phone 8 Legacy" and the actual
WP 8, "Windows Phone 8".

~~~
RobAtticus
Might just me, but I prefer "Windows Phone 7.8" vs "Windows Phone 8 Legacy".
It's shorter, and when given a short explanation I get what it is. If you call
it "Windows Phone 8 Legacy" people are going to wonder why they can't install
WP8 apps on it, after all, it has WP8 in the name.

Edit: forgot the word "apps"

~~~
islisis
The correct name is "Windows Phone ME"

------
aqjq
All upgrade controversies aside, I think WP8 has some great features and look
forward to checking it out when it releases.

------
KeyBoardG
As a Windows user now I have to decide between a 720p WindowsPhone8 phone or
the Windows 8 RT ARM tablet.

------
robomartin
Microsoft needs to get with it and provide video of these events.

~~~
ghurlman
Live stream: <http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Windows-Phone/Summit>

------
wavephorm
I imagine a lot of RIM and Google executives are getting a twitch in their eye
right about now. If these new devices live up to their hype I can easily see
them supplant Android as the "anything but Apple" option.

~~~
saturdaysaint
Yep. The real tragedy of fragmentation is that Android still lacks any kind of
brand power - they're the phone equivalent of yesterday's faceless beige
windows towers. If Microsoft actually ship this in 2012, and have someone
mildly competent in marketing, I wouldn't be surprised to see most American
users once again choosing between MS and Apple.

~~~
glhaynes
I'm not really sure whether it's true or not that Android doesn't have brand
power. I mean, it's not as strong as "iPhone", certainly, and I don't have any
specs to show, but I sure notice "Android!" on signs in front of cellular
shops a lot... and there's a giant green Android robot balloon on the top of a
little wireless shop just down the road. Even my non-techie friends say things
like "Is that an iPhone or a Droid [sic]?"...

~~~
jmspring
It seems to me, Android phones focus much more on the brand of the device than
the platform it is running...

"Samsung Galaxy S II Epic 4G Touch"

Ads might mention mention Android but much more verbiage is about the device
features and the like.

iPhone doesn't need this. RIM really didn't need this.

Windows Phone adds I have heard, Nokias are now known for running Windows
Phone, I haven't heard many commercials for other device manufacturers. But,
for me, I know it is an Android phone when I hear the ridiculous names.

~~~
kalid
I thought you were being sarcastic with the name, but no, it really is called
the:

"Samsung Galaxy S II Epic Touch 4G Android Phone, Black (Sprint)"

[http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Galaxy-Epic-Touch-
Android/dp/B...](http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Galaxy-Epic-Touch-
Android/dp/B005LHN47S)

Wow.

------
shellox
Microsoft have absolutely no taste..I would probably go to the bathroom if I
want to see tiles.

~~~
cma
Apple have absolutely no taste..I would at the insides of an animal if I
wanted to see shiny things.

