
Buddhist monk vs. hackerspace (2011) - Tomte
http://boingboing.net/2011/10/01/buddhist-monk-vs-hackerspace.html
======
squeed
This is the link to the full email:
[https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-
discuss/20...](https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-
discuss/2011-July/024213.html)

I was there when it happened. It's funny now, but it goes to show that
"radical inclusivity" has its own costs. Put another way, including everyone
actually means excluding some. This wasn't initially obvious, though, in
retrospect, it should have been.

I'd like to thank the Geek Feminism movement for really evolving the
discussion around that. We all had a lot of growing up to do.

Noisebridge has, in the past half-decade, learned from its mistakes and begun
a more structured program of welcoming and introduction. Also, we lock the
door at night now (that helps a lot).

~~~
saycheese
>> "including everyone actually means excluding some"

Just to be clear, do you mean "everyone" could not fit in the space, by being
all inclusive that some would self exclude, etc.?

~~~
njharman
Everyone includes those who would destroy whatever you're trying to do, to
subvert it, etc. so if you want thing for "everybody" you have to keep out the
terminally toxic.

More gray, more of slippery slope are those who are hostile or even just
annoying. Like do you exclude the lifers cause the feminists will fight or
vice versa. You might feel neo nazis are right out (I'd argue 1. You must
protect the freedoms of all to protect freedom of any 2. It is far better to
have people like that out in open than hiding away). But what about wwii
reenacters or war gamers. People think they are nazis for wearing the uniform
or playing with toy tanks.

~~~
derefr
The question of hostile/annoying people is easier in communities where
"tolerance" is one of the foundational social mores: where there's an
expectation that everyone does their best to not annoy others, but also an
expectation that everyone does their best to not _be_ annoyed by others.

In communities without this social more, it's very easy for things to
degenerate into radical groups fighting to get on top in public-perception
terms so they can demonize whatever group they oppose and get them pushed out
of the community.

------
soyiuz
I run a small lab / hacker space. We've learned that a lack of structure is
actually quite oppressive and can lead to conflict. The community is best
served by clear rules of conduct. So for example furniture arrangement
(leaving the space how you found it) is an important rule that minimizes
friction between constituent groups. The same goes for food and/or incense
guidelines. (We discourage both in our space, since it interferes with the
work of others).

~~~
jdietrich
>We've learned that a lack of structure is actually quite oppressive and can
lead to conflict.

Jo Freedman wrote a now-legendary essay on exactly that issue in 1970. She was
writing about her experiences in the women's liberation movement, but her
essay is essential reading for anyone aspiring to run an organisation in a
non-hierarchical manner.

[http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm](http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm)

~~~
squeed
Wow, what an amazing article.

I wish I'd read this a decade ago.

------
WillyOnWheels
The Rinpoche Fa Zang mentioned in the email is part of the Dorje Chang
organization.

[http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/general-
news/20150418/pasade...](http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/general-
news/20150418/pasadena-man-dorje-chang-known-to-followers-as-buddha-is-
gaining-followers-in-art-world)

His followers spend a lot of time on the internet saying that he is the
greatest buddha of all time

[http://www.dharmadhatu-center.org/](http://www.dharmadhatu-center.org/)
[https://medium.com/the-buddhist-tribune/who-is-his-
holiness-...](https://medium.com/the-buddhist-tribune/who-is-his-holiness-
dorje-chang-buddha-iii-68951a8fff8d#.mx8nwp7xp)

Their museum in downtown SF has a special free admission promotion going on
for the next 20 years [http://48hills.org/sfbgarchive/2012/08/08/worship-long-
haire...](http://48hills.org/sfbgarchive/2012/08/08/worship-long-haired-
handsome-cult-museum-first-thursdays/)

They bought the former lutheran church on 23rd St:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/evilbuildings/comments/4vgp3d/found...](https://www.reddit.com/r/evilbuildings/comments/4vgp3d/found_the_devil_worshippers/)

Being a respected teacher of Buddhism is partly about your lineage, or the
path you can trace from your teacher to their teacher to their teacher to all
the way back to Buddha. It looks like Dorje Chang just bribed some guys and
printed up some certificates.

~~~
throwanem
> His followers spend a lot of time on the internet saying that he is the
> greatest buddha of all time

While I have found some of the teachings interesting and occasionally useful,
I don't follow Buddhism myself, so perhaps my perspective is insufficient, but
this all seems to me a bit bonkers and sort of creepy. "If you meet the Buddha
on the road, kill him", isn't it supposed to be? - as opposed, say, to
venerating him as though he were in his own person something special, rather
than merely someone with an unusual sort of insight.

~~~
nananonymous
"If you meet the Buddha on the road..." is a specific Zen teaching.

Any time you see words like Dorje or Rinpoche it's safe to assume your dealing
with Tibetan Buddhism which differs significantly from Zen. Zen is like
Buddhism that went to China and picked up some Taoism while Tibetan Buddhism
is like Buddhism that went to Tibet and picked up some Tantric practices.

This sort of guru worship is common in Tibetan traditions. It's less common
elsewhere but if you look into scandals, even in the Zen community, there are
abuses of power that rely on this absolute deference to a teacher.

~~~
msbarnett
Historical side note: tantric practices developed in India as one of the very
late stages of its development before it faded away in that country. It was at
this time that Buddhism spread from northern India, hotbed of tantra, to
Tibet.

So it's a bit more accurate to say that tantric Buddhism went to Tibet (and
merged with Bon's animism), and then hung on there while it died off in its
country of origin.

(Tantric Buddhism also made its way from India, through China, and to Japan,
where it survives as Shingon Buddhism)

~~~
nananonymous
Well I stand corrected, thank you.

I found this really cool map that agrees with you, even if I kind of wish it
had names of particular schools along the arrows.

[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Bu...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Buddhist_Expansion.svg/2000px-
Buddhist_Expansion.svg.png)

~~~
msbarnett
Wow, neat map.

And full credit to the prof I had for the couple of electives I took on
Buddhism in uni, for getting this stuff to stick in my head.

------
beagle3
NYC Resistor was (still is) the opposite; Don't know if it's an east coast vs
west coast thing. It sounds like noisebridge is converging on the resistor
model (itself, afaik, inspired by German hackerspace culture)

~~~
spraak
In what is it the opposite?

~~~
beagle3
You have to be invited to become a member in resistor (and any existing member
can veto, afaik)

Non members have a limited standing invitation on craft nights, and are not
allowed to use power tools or any other non trivial machinery; and expressions
of bigotry will get guests thrown out.

Compared to noisebridge's "accept anyone and everything until they make it
impossible for us" circa 2011 (the story described here) it is the opposite, I
think.

~~~
WillyOnWheels
The 2011 model of Noisebridge is known as radical inclusivity.

------
mcguire
WTH is with this post? There's no actual story there?

~~~
falsedan
it's the boinbgboing variation of tl;dr: didn't link; view our ads instead

------
Mizza
Danny O'Brien's rants are the reason it's worth lurking on the Noisebridge
~~dramalist~~ mailinglist.

My favorite: [https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-
discuss/20...](https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-
discuss/2013-June/037528.html)

~~~
GuiA
I frequented noisebridge for a few months, exactly when those events happened.
i was a witness to that guy's actions several times, and attended a few weekly
meetings that seriously went off the rails. This is why i just stopped going
to noisebridge.

I also had thought of bringing my then girlfriend as it could have been
interesting to her - i'm sure glad i didn't.

~~~
WillyOnWheels
I wish you would give Noisebridge another chance. There's a slightly different
group keeping noisebridge together now. Truly unhinged people are now
discouraged from participating in the space. Sometimes politely, sometimes not
so politely.

Also the Rinpoche incident was almost 6 years ago!

~~~
GuiA
Oh I was referring to the guy with the needles and pants unzipping, not
rinpoche.

I might give it another shot, i live closer now.

------
hosh
I would have love to hear the debate about this back then, if there were
indeed someone who was willing to advocate for the Tibetan Buddhists. I
practice meditation, though not Tibetan Buddhism. I'm comfortable with both
code and ceremonies of different kinds. It would have been interesting to
attempt to mediate this.

As an exercise, I thought, how might I have approached this. What came up in
the shower was something along the lines of:

This debate isn't really about a freedom of religion or tolerance, though it
might seem like it. The Hackerspace has its own community, with it's own
unspoken code of conduct, ethics, and values. Those values appear to be
violated. I argue, though, there is a lot more in common between technologists
and the Buddhists.

Hackers value freedom. The freedom to create, and to tinker. There is
something liberating about being able to discover surprising things about the
world, and reconfigure them in clever ways. Hackers do not like technological
shackles. The practice of being able change technology is an exercise in this
freedom.

Buddhists also value freedom -- the freedom of the mind and self. While
classical Buddhists will argue up and down about the emptiness of mind, we're
really talking about liberating all sentient beings from mind-made illusions.
When you strip away the Mahayana (ceremonial) garments of Tibetan Buddhism, at
it's core is about the liberation from the tyranny of yourself.

Ever had these nagging thoughts that won't go away? Ever wonder sometimes why
things seem to suck even if everything seem OK? While Buddhist meditation
practices do not specifically address psychology, it cannot help overlap it.
Being aware of how mind and nature of mind leads to clearly seeing yourself.

In other words: these meditation practices hack the mind.

How effective are they? Can you measure happiness? To what extent can
technology help or hinder this? Wouldn't you want to know?

There are some things that Hackers can benefit from the Buddhists, in so far
as the hacking of the mind. So why would the ceremonies be uncomfortable?

To this, I address the Buddhists, some things from the core doctrines:

1\. Right action 2\. Right speech -- make no divisive speech 3\. One of the
Bodhisattva attainments: to teach according to where each person is at.

Can you honestly say this is Right Action and Right Speech? Is your speech
really reaching the hackers?

The Hackers might state that law protecting freedoms is important, but as you
know, causes and conditions can distort and change understanding of this. Not
everything important might be said out in the important. What is _unsaid_ may
be more important. Are those deeper values being honored?

If the core common value is freedom, maybe there is something the Buddhists in
turn can learn from the hackers. They may want to participate, but participate
in their own way. To measure what is going in the brain while someone is
meditating. To record and track any benefit such practices might have.

The Bodhisattva ideal has this streak of radical inclusiveness too. There's
something here that might benefit both groups.

~~~
EdHominem
It's not a religious question - the same thing would come up if you wanted to
setup a large electric train set, or hold a dance class, or anything, and then
refused to return the space to its original state.

There are no (few) formal rules, just the weight on inconvenience. By physical
necessity only one person can work with a tool at once so as long as you share
nobody minds being temporarily without, but if you do something like take all
the tools at once you're inconveniencing everyone and people will complain.

If you box up all the tools and move them out of the room you're
inconveniencing all others who'd work in that area. If there are less of you
than them, or if you're doing things you could do in any other space, you'll
rightly be asked to move because it inconveniences you less than the people
trying to do hacky things with the tools.

And leaving the space setup in your way is rude unless you're coming _right_
back. Nobody minds if you run to the washroom but if you go to 7-11 for snacks
you'll come back to find your tools in use at another station. If you go home
for the night, you'll get complained to when you come back in the morning.

> In other words: these meditation practices hack the mind.

Sure sure, but to they need the whole room to be left unusable by other
hobbies to do so? Can't they hack the mind in the corner and clean up after
themselves?

> The Bodhisattva ideal has this streak of radical inclusiveness too. There's
> something here that might benefit both groups.

In the monks refusing to cleanup? "Oh, I don't do my dishes because it
radically includes others in my cycle of life, peace brother."

> How effective are they? Can you measure happiness? To what extent can
> technology help or hinder this? Wouldn't you want to know?

Oh god no, just do the bloody dishes and quit trying to dodge the issue.

This is all just being thrown out as some weird excuse for space-dominating
actions and making the space less comfortable for everyone.

When the dishes are clean, we can talk.

~~~
hosh
"When the dishes are clean, we can talk."

That's addressing a very different issue. May I assume you were there back
then when this happened, and this was one of the issues that came up within
the community?

~~~
EdHominem
I've been around NB a fair bit, but never seen the monks.

> > "When the dishes are clean, we can talk."

> That's addressing a very different issue.

That's the generic answer to people who won't cleanup after themselves. Room
setup and tool positions are a bit abstract but everyone understands dirty
dishes. And everyone recognizes the type of person who always tries to play
the X-card (religion in this case) to avoid cleaning up after themselves.

There's always some esoteric reason why they and their activities are special,
but relating it to dishes usually cuts through the special and gets to the
mundane - nobody wants to pick up after you to use the space.

------
hxegon
noisebridge you crazy :D

