
Why Sleep Deprivation Kills - seesawtron
https://www.quantamagazine.org/why-sleep-deprivation-kills-20200604/
======
clon
I cannot stand those long form articles. The headline picked my interest, the
lead text is intriguing but the first paragraph that starts to describe a
bright, warm morning or the attire or the facial features of a "lead
character" immediately takes the wind out of my sails. How can anyone place so
little value on their time as to be able afford to consume material that is so
sparse in information?

~~~
pdog
I thought maybe you were being overly critical and the writing wouldn't be so
bad... then I read halfway through this sentence:

 _On a cold morning this winter, Rogulja leaned over a tablet in her office,
her close-cropped dark hair framing a face of elfin intensity..._

~~~
sooheon
Poe's law strikes again.

~~~
ses1984
Huh?

~~~
sooheon
I could honestly not tell whether that quote was written satirically or
actually in the article without looking.

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nefitty
After finishing this article, I immediately started googling for any anecdotal
signs of antioxidant usage effects on sleep. Coincidentally, I found out that
melatonin has strong antioxidant properties itself. Could supplementing with
melatonin reduce the need for sleep?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin#Antioxidant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin#Antioxidant)

[https://www.gwern.net/Melatonin#tempus-
fugit](https://www.gwern.net/Melatonin#tempus-fugit)

~~~
balnaphone
Please research in-depth before experimenting too much. Some common
antioxidants are surprisingly linked to modestly increased all-cause
mortality; the most famous is the set of vitamin E studies, but there are
others.

[1] [https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/antioxidants-in-
depth](https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/antioxidants-in-depth)

[2] [https://www.webmd.com/drug-
medication/news/20070227/antioxid...](https://www.webmd.com/drug-
medication/news/20070227/antioxidant-supplements-up-death-risk)

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ck425
So the interesting question here would be (and I'm not a biologist so may have
misunderstood parts of the study), does increasing the amount of anti-oxidants
you consume reduce the need for sleep and/or improve wakefulness?

~~~
GuB-42
It looks like anti-oxidants can prevent you from dying in case you don't sleep
at all.

It doesn't tell much about the long term effects of low levels of sleep
deprivation.

~~~
seesawtron
One should always be cautious to not assume that studies conducted in lab
animals translate to humans by default. The media is quick to do that but we
can be better than that.

------
seesawtron
TLDR: Sleep deprivation in flies and mice leads to increased ROS (Reactive
oxygen species) molecules in the gut. This is show to be highly correalted to
be the cause of lethality. To show the causality, the over-expression of anti-
oxiodants restores normal lifespan in the animals.

Abstract video summary by the senior author here:

[https://bit.ly/3cy0C9u](https://bit.ly/3cy0C9u)

~~~
sradman
The Cell paper [1] begins with a three bullet Highlights section:

\- Sleep deprivation leads to ROS accumulation in the fly and mouse gut

\- Gut-accumulated ROS trigger oxidative stress in this organ

\- Preventing ROS accumulation in the gut allows survival without sleep in
flies

[1]
[https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(20)30555-9.pdf?_ret...](https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674\(20\)30555-9.pdf?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420305559%3Fshowall%3Dtrue)

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scotty79
TLDR Feeding fruit flies antioxidants (suitable for flies) lessen the damage
from sleep deprivation to the point it's no longer lethal or life shortening.
Damage from sleep deprivation seems to be very strongly correlated with
oxidants build up in the gut of fruit flies. Similar oxidants show up in guts
of sleep deprived rats as in fruit flies, so it's quite interesting.

By reading the actual paper I learned that apparently melatonin and lipoic
acid fared best at extending survival without giving any additional sleep.
Another interesting observation from the paper is that anti-oxidants didn't
affect lifespan of non-sleepdeprived fruit flies.

------
pkghost
> Yet scientists have found it oddly hard to say exactly why sleep loss is
> lethal.

Barf. This kind of straw-manning is all too common in science journalism.
IANAS but I know that normal metabolism generates free radicals (electron-
greedy molecules), which then steal electrons from anything they touch,
causing damage. If that damage isn't repaired regularly, then our basic
metabolic pathways breakdown, and we die.

I'm sure there are mysteries to unpack beneath this, but why treat the reader
to a moronic underrepresentation of the state of the art?

~~~
diroussel
If I find I can't open a door, it cllouls be because there is a lock. If I
remove the lock does that mean the door can be opened? No, there might be
another lock, or rusty hinges, or nails to the frame.

Just because we might be able to remediate this one mechanism in the gut
doesn't mean we can solve sleep. What about memory formation? Or immune system
effects of sleep?

~~~
pkghost
I think you misunderstood? I meant: we understand one way in which sleep loss
can kill sufficiently well that we don't need to describe its lethality as
"oddly hard to explain". That doesn't mean there isn't more to learn about
sleep, or other things about sleep that are, indeed, oddly hard to explain.

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sy7ar
As someone who has chronic maintenance insomnia (so bad that I've been off
work for more than 6 months), is there anything I can do?

~~~
emiliobumachar
Take forum advice with a grain of salt, but you asked for it, so here it goes.

Exercise daily, starting today.

Ditch or at least dim all screens a few hours before going to bed. Hard ban on
screens when unwillingly awake in the middle of the night. Paper books are
okay.

Look into techniques to fall asleep, this article helped me:
[https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/fall-asleep-
fast/](https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/fall-asleep-fast/). The article
and the research it cites are male-oriented, women may try it more
speculatively. Intuitively it seems to me that gender differences should not
be relevant.

Septum surgery helped my sleep enormously by making breathing easier, see if
it's for you.

Hard ban on stimulants, including sugar and coffee, a few hours before going
to bed. Hard ban on stimulants when unwillingly awake in the middle of the
night. For a severe case such as yours, consider a hard ban after midday, or
even a complete permanent ban.

~~~
sy7ar
Thanks for the reply. Sorry I didn't give more details. Unfortunately, I've
been following most of the "best practices" for sleep for a while, as it's
been almost a year since my sleep turned to a mess.

Currently, I try to take a walk at least 30 minute everyday in the morning and
then I do the 7-minute-workout in the afternoon, even when I have no energy.
My sleep's improved for the past couple of months since I started this workout
routine. I can't tell if it's because of that or my sleep just improves on its
own but I'll keep doing it since exercising is better than doing nothing. I
also started 18:6 intermittent fasting. That might also have helped.

Still, my improved sleep means about 5 to 5.5 hours (sometimes less) a night
with at least 2 awakenings in between. My normal sleep was about 8 hours with
1 awakening, and I'd still nap in the afternoon if given the opportunity. Now,
I can't nap and there's no rebound sleep (i.e. I don't sleep more the next day
because I sleep very little the day before). It's a pretty messed up situation
and doctors haven't found anything abnormal from medical tests, including MRI
and EEG. Sleep study indicated 50% sleep efficiency, reduced REM and deep
sleep, but no sleep apnea or any common cause.

I tried the 2-min fall asleep method when my condition first started but it
didn't really help. And yes, I only drink green tea and have some chocolates
before lunch time in terms of stimulants.

I've also read Why We Sleep before my sleep got this bad. In fact, knowing too
much about how sleep work and the negative impact on health with lack of sleep
makes it much worse for me. So now I tend to avoid reading articles like this
and learning more details.

I guess what I'm asking is if there's anything more I can do, like something
to supplement or eat/do to make up for the stuff lost due to insufficient
sleep. It's a long shot asking in a tech forum, but I'm willing to give
anything a chance to help improve my sleep. Let's hope there's more research
into sleep as insomnia is one of the worst form of suffering.

~~~
wruza
I have a recurring insomnia too. Nothing to recommend tbh, as I am still not
alright, but my anecdotes are: 1. sleep pills do “power off”, but not a real
“sleep”. You wake up in the same state at the moment a pill metabolizes. 2. A
neck/collar massage seems to help to some degree. 3. A strong routine _may_
help – before things went downhill, I could feel these two “want to sleep”
hours which turn you off instantly and which are easy to skip and be awake for
more time. Now I don’t feel them, but they’re still there. You may try to go
to sleep _before_ your insomnia kicks in; maybe your body is just missing this
period by ignoring it completely. 4. Another cause may be purely psychological
– long-standing anxiety and stress, which you do not count as real problems
(everyone has problems!) and do not report to a doctor, but they are. 5. Have
someone to “sleep with”, in a bed-sharing sense. 6. Ensure that your nutrient
levels and inner organs are fine. In retrospect, all of the above did change
my average state for better or worse over a period of around ten years (or it
was a coincidence, idk). I know that experiments can bring even more suffering
in your current state, so please discuss them with your health care first.

>insomnia is one of the worst form of suffering

I once had a “day” that lasted four days or so. The last one was pretty hell
on earth. Idk how people stay awake for weeks in stories out there. For a
reader who never experienced that: it is not “I don’t wanna sleep and it’s
probably bad”. No, you are tired as hell, your brain is almost failing, you
_want_ to sleep, but you just can not.

~~~
sy7ar
Agree with your points and I might give massaging a try. I've let go of so
many things and pursuits since my condition started so I doubt it's anxiety
and stress. It's been more than half a year since I need to work (fortunate to
be on company's disability benefit for now). Right now I simply wish to stay
alive/healthy and enjoy simple things in life. Hopefully my sleep keeps
recovering to a point that I can work full time again. For several months, it
was super scary that it was only going down hill.

> you are tired as hell, your brain is almost failing, you want to sleep, but
> you just can not.

I know exactly what you mean. I was like that for the whole winter.
Fortunately this scenario's not happened for quite some time. I'm at least
getting some amount of sleep everyday.

~~~
unishark
Have you tried sleep headphones and/or noise generation? Also does listening
to guided meditation/relaxation recordings (as opposed to just following a
practice you read) do anything to knock you out?

~~~
sy7ar
Right now falling asleep is usually not a problem. Waking up early and then
again and again is the problem; plus not sleeping more than 5.5 hours. This is
an example from my sleep diary: bedtime 11:39, and the subsequent wake up
times are 1:50, 3:16, 4:42, 6:01, 6:35. I wrote a simple app to track them
without having to look at a clock. I only know the result when I'm out of bed.

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irrational
It’s 4am and I read this headline. Thanks for the motivation to head to bed.

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softwaredoug
This is the kind of article that causes harm to insomniacs. We stay up late,
worried about our sleep deprivation, causing sleep deprivation.

Really when I talk to a sleep doctor, they say don't stress about a single
night or two of bad sleep. It happens. Even a weeklong stretch. If you can't
sleep, don't try. And its ok if you get 5 or 6 hours. They'll often care about
quality over quantity.

~~~
seesawtron
I am sorry for your struggle with insomnia. I just don't see why this research
does harm to you? The whole goal of research in this field is to understand
the underlying molecular mechanisms that are responsible for sleep disorders
or related to them. In the lonf run, a better understanding of these
mechanisms will help the research community to develop methods to treat these
disorders in humans.

It is unfortunate that this research has to be done with animals and the
scientific community is thankful to the society for understanding the crucial
need for it and their support with research grants from their taxes.

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jcun4128
Until I'm free/can work on my own time I'm usually often sleep deprived
especially on Mondays and it goes throughout the week until I get back to
normal by Friday... crappy cycle. Still I find when I get too much sleep(sleep
as long as I want) I feel bored with my life. So slightly sleep deprived seems
to keep me in the grind.

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RickJWagner
First: I find this kind of research valuable, I think mankind will benefit
from it.

But now, the discussion question: What would people say if this
experimentation were being done on puppies, or rabbits, or baby seals? Why are
fruit flies different?

~~~
Majromax
> What would people say if this experimentation were being done on puppies, or
> rabbits, or baby seals? Why are fruit flies different?

Because we as a society explicitly assign different levels of moral worth to
different animals. Fruit flies have greater worth than bacteria or yeast but
lesser worth than mammals, which in turn have lesser worth than primates or
humans (as subcategories of mammals).

That's an inherent problem to in vivo studies: we're fine with experiments on
bacteria or yeast but we'd all be horrified at unconsenting experiment on
humans. There's a line, and we must draw it somewhere.

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trianglem
I really wish we had a human analogue to test these things on. If we push the
boundaries of ethics, moral and technology can we create a decephalized
“human” currently?

~~~
seesawtron
There are artificial grown tissues from human Stem cells called "organoids"
[0] that are used in labs to conduct experiments. But of course these
experiments are very limited as it remains to be seen how far can organoids
resemble the human brain (or other organs). Behaviour experiments are of
course a far far goal on this.

[0] [https://hsci.harvard.edu/organoids](https://hsci.harvard.edu/organoids)

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biolurker1
Given that during the pandemic people are over stressed and suffering from
insomnia, this articles should not have been submitted imo

