
A Small Town in the Philippines Banned Gossip - secstate
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/a-small-town-takes-a-stand-it-banned-gossip/ar-BBWix0p
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partisan
At a small enough level, you can maintain standards of conduct that are civil
and fair. Once you reach a certain size, you lose the cohesion and
accountability that makes someone feel like they need to be civil. Maybe part
of solving that problem is making everyone part of a group where they are
accountable and then making that group accountable to a larger group and so on
until the largest group is accountable to society as a whole.

Some organized crime groups work this way as a way of controlling the
incidence of violence, but the bonds between the members is stronger, in some
sense than the bonds between casual acquaintances in the groups we form on a
day-to-day basis.

I was thinking about how Facebook and YouTube are delisting and otherwise
punishing creators of “fake news” and while it certainly seems a way of
punishing and silencing unpopular thoughts and opinions, I do wonder whether a
tightly controlled Facebook is the solution to society’s ills. I see people on
Twitter being defamed for their speech or actions and I wonder if that is
where we start to get our accountability back at a societal level? Where else
do we have a group where everyone can be held accountable?

~~~
mistermann
> At a small enough level, you can maintain standards of conduct that are
> civil and fair. Once you reach a certain size, you lose the cohesion and
> accountability that makes someone feel like they need to be civil. Maybe
> part of solving that problem is making everyone part of a group where they
> are accountable and then making that group accountable to a larger group and
> so on until the largest group is accountable to society as a whole.

Japan seems to be a place that has largely accomplished this. It's a slightly
different topic, but this short video outlines four reasons social cohesion is
breaking down in first world nations, and a few of the ways in which Japan (at
4:55) is distinctly different:

Trump’s not the problem. He’s a symbol of 4 bigger issues. | Ian Bremmer

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hESLPB3FiyY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hESLPB3FiyY)

Another link that seems relevant to the topic:

[https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/04/wh...](https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/04/what-
ive-been-reading-143.html)

> Patrick Bergemann, Judge Thy Neighbor: Denunciations in the Spanish
> Inquisition, Romanov Russia, and Nazi Germany. A very specific, useful, and
> interesting account of actual denunciation practices during the above-
> mentioned episodes. During the Inquisition, there was general immunity given
> to most denouncers, you can imagine the resulting incentives. _This book is
> becoming more relevant than it ought to be._

It's a shame reasonable perspectives rarely appear in the mainstream media, I
often wonder if that is accidental.

~~~
bilbo0s
> _It 's a shame reasonable perspectives rarely appear in the mainstream
> media..._

Problem is, what's " _reasonable_ " is completely different to a lot of
people. FOX News is "reasonable" to some people, CNN is "reasonable" to
others, and still others swear by the BBC. (And then you have that pitifully
small group of people who watch CSPAN, and might actually be argued to be the
most "reasonable" in the classic sense of the word.)

BTW, Japan's social cohesion is falling apart just like everyone else'. So
even your initial point is a bit suspect. (Unless you feel things like masses
of old people dying alone, unwanted and even undiscovered is a sign of great
social cohesion. But even if you do hold such a belief, a contemplative
individual would likely not be faulted for disagreeing.)

In a modern world, in modern societies, social cohesion just tends to fall
apart. Modern societies are set up to be convenient, and when the efficiencies
offered by these conveniences exceed the benefits offered by social cohesion,
people, understandably, choose convenience.

It's really just human nature. I don't know how we get around it, I just know
that it manifests itself all over the globe. As political strife in the EU and
US, as strongman leadership in places like Russia and the Philippines, and as
some rather horrible social norms that are developing in places like Japan.

~~~
mistermann
> BTW, Japan's social cohesion is _falling apart_ just like everyone else'. So
> even your initial point is a bit suspect.

When you say "falling" apart, what do you mean exactly? Declining? Is it
falling apart to the same degree that cohesion is falling apart in Western
first world nations?

> Unless you feel things like masses of old people dying alone, unwanted and
> even undiscovered is a sign of great social cohesion.

Ian Bremmer uses four specific dimensions of evaluation to substantiate his
case. Your example uses one, but is " "masses" of old people "dying alone" "
both an accurate description of current Japanese society (what is the actual
degree of change in this respect over time), and _caused_ by "social cohesion
falling apart"? Demographics and the rising tendency for offspring to move
away from family (in this case, it introduces complexity into what the word
"alone" really means) seem like they play a substantial part as well.
Epistemologically, I wonder if there's anyone who really has a good idea.

> In a modern world, in modern societies, social cohesion just tends to fall
> apart....It's really just human nature.

I wholeheartedly agree that this is the overwhelming norm in most modern
societies, but I disagree with "it's _just_ human nature" so will continue to
agree with Ian Bremmer for the time being. I think it is largely a function of
the kind of societies we choose to build, often optimizing for GDP growth with
little respect for the often nuanced qualitative effects this has on our
societies.

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panarky
_> I was just repeating something I heard from someone else. I thought it was
true. That family has a lot of debts._

Advanced nations have systematized, normalized and sanitized these ancient
behaviors to the extent we don't even realize we're doing the same thing on an
industrial scale.

How is gossiping about a neighbor's debt morally different than a credit
reporting agency?

How is a mining company giving a bag of cash to a provincial governor morally
different from campaign contributions from lobbyists?

~~~
yeahitslikethat
Credit can be verified and challenged and corrected.

Gossip cannot.

~~~
syrrim
There was a recent post here regarding someone who was recorded as dead by the
credit agencies after the death of their father. In that case it couldn't be
corrected in any meaningful sense. Gossip can be corrected, in a meaningful
sense, by contacting choice people, and informing them of the correct
information. Even if they don't propagate the correction, they themselves will
be aware of it and act according to it. This opposed to unthinking credit
agencies, liable to unlearn the correction as soon as another credit agencies
re-reports the death.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19656322](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19656322)

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mudil
Many evolutionary biologists believe that gossip is an evolutionary
adaptation. The highest pressure that an individual organism experiences does
not come from predators, but rather other individuals of the same species.
There is always a struggle for mates, food, resources, space, etc. Even with
predators, it is often not whether you can run away from it, but whether you
are faster than other members of your species. Coming back to the gossip, it
is basically assessment of what others are doing and where you stand. That's
why gossip is so interesting for so many people, and that's why we gossip, why
we have all these magazines, and all these reality shows. In some way, even
fiction and drama is a sort of gossip, where we watch what happens to others
and evaluate it from our own perspective.

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dymk
How much would you like to bet that this became a thing because a city
official didn't like a rumor spreading about them?

How much would you like to bet that that rumor was true?

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skilled
Gossip, the lowest form of human interaction and yet most find it a reasonable
way to get by in life. It's not laws that have to fix this, but people
themselves have to figure out the value of self-respect.

~~~
martindbp
I always had your knee-jerk reaction to gossip, but after reading "How the
mind works" by Steven Pinker I had to rethink my stance. I think I've been too
influenced by sayings such as "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds
discuss events; small minds discuss people". What Pinker argues is that gossip
is a very important activity, it helps us learn more about our world, the
social structures within it, and more importantly: who is trustworthy? Let's
say A gossips to me about B (saying something bad). If another person C
corroborates the character of B with their own experience, I can reasonably
assume B is a bad actor. If C doesn't corroborate then perhaps A is the bad
actor, spreading false rumours. Either way I've gained information. During our
evolutionary history, learning who is trustworthy and who is not would be the
difference between life and death. Just because we are far removed from lethal
consequences in today's society doesn't mean gossip is any less useful. It can
help you figure out if you should trust your business partner, invest in
someone's business or provide a personal loan etc.

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ARandomerDude
> If C doesn't corroborate then perhaps A is the bad actor, spreading false
> rumours.

The problem: you always suspect B of being a bad actor and maybe A. How long
is enough for C to have completed his non-corroboration period?

Gossip destroys relationships with suspicion at every turn.

ETA: please don't take this as an endorsement of gossip being a criminal
offense in the Philippines.

~~~
Gpetrium
I think it is worth noting that the word gossip has been painted with negative
connotation in our society.

The moment humans realized that the world is full of information asymmetry and
unknowns, they started to gossip. Gossip is a tool to transfer knowledge of
others/things to someone who may not have the means to confirm it themselves.
In theory, a private reference from a friend to a potential employer about you
is gossip (E.g. @ARandomerDude is a trustworthy individual, you should hire
him) even thought your friend may not have a full picture of who you are.

~~~
cies
I believe (personally) that gossip is only things you would not say (or would
say considerably different) when the gossiped-about-person is there to
overhear it.

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erokar
Just another confirmation the Philippines has descended into fascism.

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scottmsul
I'd be much more afraid of a government cracking down on gossip than a little
gossip...

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dlphn___xyz
thats not gonna happen

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oedmarap
It's rare that I get to quote Atlas Shrugged so I'll just leave this below:

> There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is
> the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough
> criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it
> becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.

What's even more worrying in my opinion from the article:

\- references to Puritanical punishment seemingly framed in a positive light

\- citing of the linguistic/anthropological context of gossip without much
further qualification

\- the Binaloan authorities' clear lack of understanding of what merits free
speech

\- the mention of this law being beneficial to upcoming political candidates
(of whom public discussion should be encouraged)

~~~
hellllllllooo
> There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is
> the power to crack down on criminals.

This starts with a false premise that is so broad its hard to take seriously.
Well run government can do a lot for innocent people.

~~~
deogeo
While I'm no fan of Rand, I think 'rule' here is meant as control and coerce,
not normal beneficial government stuff. Viewed in that light, the quote makes
sense - you can't get someone to inform on their friends by offering a mere
tax break. But if you threaten them with jail time for some 'crime', they'll
be much more cooperative.

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brians
I hear it’s because of what the mayor did.

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jimrhods23
There is a paywall.

But, If the town actually tried to ban gossip, it's essentially a ban on the
freedom of speech.

I'm not sure how that would be enforced anyway. You aren't allowed to talk
about anything besides yourself?

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garbonicc
God bless the United States of America.

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coding123
Sometimes I feel like creating a chrome plugin that hides pay wall sites in
hn.

Since I couldn't read it. Yikes how do the police handle a report of gossip...
You get arrested and then what? Let's say you decide to keep gossiping, 3
strikes and they treat you like a drug dealer I bet.

~~~
justwalt
Why not tweak the tool to modify the links into outline links?

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noego
I don't support this specific law, since "gossip" is a nebulous term. That
said, the idea is pretty intriguing. I suspect that society would be far
better off if the deliberate authoring and spread of misinformation, were made
illegal. There would have to be a stupidity-waiver; anyone dumb enough to
actually believe in something like Flat-Earth should be allowed to espouse it
all they want. But anyone who willfully lies about witnessing things that
never happened, or claims possession of evidence that they do not actually
possess, should face charges for the deliberate spread of misinformation.

~~~
Waterluvian
This is a bad idea because of the chilling effect it has on unpopular ideas
and information. This is especially chilling to scrutinization of long held
falsehoods.

I'm thinking of all the "facts" I was taught in school that turned out to be
flat wrong.

~~~
optimalsolver
Such as?

~~~
marcinzm
That the US is a wonderful nation that never did any wrong and never helped
dictatorships rise to power in it’s decades long fight against the Soviet
Union.

