
The female price of male pleasure - anarbadalov
https://theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure
======
IntronExon
This article suffers from a fundamental flaw; the case of ‘Grace’ is a poor
one to make any of these points off the back of. There are undoubtedly many
cases which would highlight the issues raised, but of course they won’t
involve Aziz Ansari. Still, this is a case which ended with a woman finally
saying “No” and immediately being met with the offer to just watch some tv,
clothes on. It seems unfortunate to use an example of behavior which may not
be the ideal, but falls far short of both coercion and force.

As a group, we’re sorting through everything from rape and sexual abuse,
through coercion and harrassment, to the merely awkward or ill mannered. I
can’t emphasize how much I feel bright lines need to be drawn between the
first two categories and the last.

~~~
Obi_Juan_Kenobi
Did you read the article?

> Her repeated objections and pleas that they "slow down" were all well and
> good, but they did not square with the fact that she eventually gave Ansari
> oral sex. Finally, crucially, she was free to leave.

That's really all that's said about Ansari, and suggests that his actions
don't constitute assault. The article isn't at all about Ansari, it's about
the various reactions that have come up in response. Namely those that
normalize 'bad sex', which for women it is argued, often involves significant
physical discomfort and pain. Even if these bad experiences aren't a result of
anything we consider illegal, it doesn't mean they are irrelevant, 'natural',
or don't exist.

~~~
IntronExon
I didn’t say anything about irrelevancies, I said I hope like hell that the
current conversation about the right not to be abused, raped, coerced, and
harassed doesn’t become confused with conversations about bad sex,
awkwardness, and all manner of the non-pathological.

Also, isn’t it frowned upon to use that trite “did you read...” line?

------
noobiemcfoob
Having had partners who suffered vulvodynia, the point of clinical trials for
erectile dysfunction contrasted against the far fewer number of investigations
into female pain during sex is rather salient.

~~~
IntronExon
While sexual pain and dysfunction in women is grossly understudied, it’s part
of a larger trend in which pharmaceutical and medical research primarily
considered one model: adult men. Over time that changed a bit to include
children, which led to the realization that kids are not just small adults.
(Medically speaking)

I’m addition to sexism there is also the complexity and cost of modeling your
drugs and devices on women. Women after all, are not just men with different
parts, any more than the reverse is true. For companies trying to minimize R&D
costs and maximize profit, giving women (and children originally) the short
end of the stick is profitable. There’s pushback on that now, but only
relatively recently.

There’s almost certainly elements of societal squeamishness around the notions
of everything from menses to vaginismus. That’s probsbly partly why the
pushback against testing policies took so long to become widespread.

~~~
noobiemcfoob
I'm not entirely sure what point you're arguing but it seems you miss the
difference between one group failing to get erections and another experiencing
chronic pain. Ignore sexism and the differences between the sexes for a moment
and consider which one seems like an actual problem.

~~~
IntronExon
They both seem like actual problems, both deserving of research and sympathy.
I don’t feel the need to denigrate one to elevate the other.

------
masonic
"Her repeated objections and pleas that they "slow down" were all well and
good, but they did not square with the fact that she eventually gave Ansari
oral sex."

It's deceptive to construct the narrative this way given that, by _her own
account_ , she readily _accepted oral sex from him first_ with no indication
of rejection. Of course, that isn't inherently consent for anything further,
but the author depicts the encounter as some kind of hostage situation from
the outset.

~~~
IntronExon
My sister’s reaction to the story was along those lines, but started with,
“Why did she go back to his place on a first date if she had no interest in
fooling around?”

------
dzhiurgis
> women have been routinely harassed, abused, and dismissed because men wanted
> to have erections in the workplace

I dont think you can ever choose where you have an erection, especially at
young age.

------
Spivak
I genuinely want to understand her position but this seems she's just taken a
long time to make two points.

* More effort needs to be put into addressing pain women feel during sex. I'm in complete agreement.

* People are willing to endure discomfort to give their partner pleasure. She paints this as something that's foreign to men or bad in general. I disagree on both points.

Some of my painful sexual experiences:

* A woman's IUD was literally stabbing the tip of my penis during each insertion.

* Another woman ran out of lubrication just before orgasm. Lost a layer of skin.

* Numerous occasions where I have endured pain similar to extended wall sits or sprinting because she's into it.

* Gave myself a charlie horse one time due to a weird angle.

* Woman was _really_ into scratching. Back was bloody afterward.

* Plenty of occasions where oral isn't enjoyable: bad smell, bad taste, sore jaw, sore neck, etc..

Maybe my experience is abnormal and I'm just an overly generous lover but I'm
totally willing to endure discomfort and pain for the pleasure of my partner.
I will totally admit that some of this is pressure to perform.

Edit: Made it sound less like /r/ihavesex. It wasn't my intention.

~~~
Obi_Juan_Kenobi
This is classic 'whataboutism'.

The issue is not whether displeasure occurs for either party, but the
normalization or expectation of that displeasure. It is very much an issue of
magnitudes and whether a discrepancy there exists.

Your experiences are not wrong or less legitimate, they simply don't address
the thesis of the article.

