
I’m not saving ninety percent of my income for myself - mooreds
https://www.thecut.com/2019/06/how-im-saving-for-my-parents-retirement.html
======
xenihn
I'm honestly so jealous of the husband's situation. 7-figure networth before
hitting 30, a 4-bedroom home in a major tech hub, and a compulsively frugal
wife who is obsessed with financial planning and amplifying your shared
incomes/networths. The dream.

This article just feels like a vector to drive traffic towards her sites,
though.

~~~
joshbaptiste
Once he placed the ring on her finger he accepted her terms .. as an American
who hasn’t grown up with Asian cultural norms I would never marry someone with
an obligation to take care of their parents also in America.

~~~
rayiner
What kind of American? Multigenerational living is still routine among African
Americans and Hispanic Americans, and pretty common among rural white
Americans. The median distance an American lives from their mom is just 18
miles.

~~~
fjsolwmv
Upper middle class American. People who focus on accumulating and spending
wealth on themselves tend to draw their circle quite narrowly.

------
xenocyon
I think about this a lot, as another frugal but high-earning household that
earns way more than we spend, even after maxing out 401(k) contributions. Most
people in our position save more than they need partly as a means of hedging
personal risk (higher-than-typical retirement and medical expenses, children
who grow up unable to financially self-suffice), and partly (IMHO) just
because they gain some satisfaction from seeing numbers climb and because
hoarding wealth is not seen as having any downside. However, at least the
first of these reasons could be much more efficiently managed by having social
(rather than individual) safety nets, for the same reason that insurance
works. Some people also save with the thought of giving away a ton of money at
death, but this again holds money out of useful purposes until decades away.
With these thoughts in mind, and with the example of religious folks with much
less disposable income than us who tithe, we annually give away whatever money
we don't have use for after sensible but not excessively conservative
allocations for immediate and future needs. To be clear, I'm not certain this
is the right thing to do; ask me how I feel about it in a few decades!

~~~
em500
> Some people also save with the thought of giving away a ton of money at
> death, but this again holds money out of useful purposes until decades away.

What makes you believe that? The overwhelming majority of savings are held in
bonds, stocks and real estate, not in paper notes in a vault. You might quible
over the usefulness of savings and investments vs other allocations, but
assuming is useless is pretty extreme.

~~~
pfortuny
Thanks for writing this. Saving is not storing money. It is delaying your
right to “use” it, thus allowing others to “use” it now (which is why you
expect a return interest).

That is why banks are not evil. On the contrary: they are the basis of a
healthy economy.

~~~
StillBored
Nothing is black/white. Banks which operate like your grade school basic
economics classes are providing a healthy/necessary service for the economy.

OTOH, it might be debated that banks which take your money leverage it out and
get huge returns while giving you a fraction of a percent, banks that charge
2-4% transaction fees for basic transfers for merchants, or fee harvesting
people for more than their net worth are more economic parasites than useful
service providers.

Much of modern banking in countries like the US are basically shifting wealth
from the economic value creators to a few vampires growing their own personal
fortunes which dwarf that of the other 99.999% of the population. The idea
that they might return some of that to their customers though interest bearing
checking accounts, removing low balance fees or any of their other abusive
practices never comes up.

~~~
pfortuny
Well, I was referring to the institution, not to specific instances of it. I
should have said "banking", probably. You have a point (that corruption is
almost ubiquitous nowadays in the large banking corporations) but my argument
was intended as an abstract.

And precisely because banking is so essential to economy, its corruption is
one of the worst events in an economy.

------
vmlinuz
Just to be clear, this is a story of a person who has been traumatised by a
combination of the worse parts of US and Chinese poverty. It's not a nice
story, at all...

Also, the two websites she runs, as linked at the bottom of the page - one of
them is a blog/content site about living frugally, one is about making money
any way you can. They're part of the same problem that the article (probably
inadvertently?) illustrates.

~~~
danielvinson
Yes, this is being overlooked by most readers... this article is a woman
plainly describing her mental illness.

~~~
StillBored
Hard to describe that as mental illness, I might go the other way and say
people so consumed by their social status that they throw away their perfectly
functional year old iphone/cloths/cars/etc to buy the latest version are
suffering far more harmful mental illness. And that might just be the surface,
people who throw their lives away going into massive debt to buy the largest
house and nicest car they can afford are clearly harming themselves.

Its an ugly cycle, people who check out of it are definitely not mentally ill
IMHO. Average US consumerism is an addiction.

~~~
atomical
> My husband and I never really discussed the fact that I’d be supporting my
> parents. It was just a given

> He doesn’t mind the way I want to live — he just goes along with it.

> I once had a conversation with my husband about how if I died, he’d have to
> keep taking care of my parents. It’s a dark topic, I know, and he wasn’t
> thrilled about the idea. But he wouldn’t kick them out.

> My dad is now retired, and when my mom retires she’ll move in with us too.
> The plan is to give them this house eventually, and get our own nearby.

She says her parents aren't pleasant people. Imagine how her husband feels
about dedicating all his future earnings towards their happiness. She thinks
this is normal.

~~~
StillBored
Its getting a bit off topic, but in the US at least its still fairly common
for children to take care of their parents in their last years. Particularly
if ones parents aren't well off enough to afford some kind of senior living
arrangement. Despite what you might think of medicare "Medicare doesn't cover
custodial care, if it's the only care you need. Most nursing home care is
Custodial care" [https://www.medicare.gov/coverage/nursing-home-
care](https://www.medicare.gov/coverage/nursing-home-care)

Getting married basically means that if you haven't already discussed this
there is a strong possibility that might end up living with your spouses
parents during their last few years simply because its more convenient driving
them to the doctor and generally taking care of them as they go downhill.
About the only way you get out of this is if some other sibling is better off
or has more free time, lives closer or any number of other situations.

------
maxaf
I’m 100% the opposite way. My wife is very frugal, but I save nothing. What’s
the point of pinching every single penny? That’s not life; it’s survival. Even
more ironic is the fact that this is multiple decades of mere survival all
aimed towards one goal: ensuring survival in those decades when work is no
longer possible. Perhaps I’m obtuse, but this isn’t a life worth living. I
want to enjoy my healthy years in the here and now. I like my disposable
income, I like living in a nice neighborhood, I like taking vacations, I like
eating out. I’m keenly aware that I’ll be left penniless once I can no longer
work, but I have a plan for that. Until then, I have a couple of good decades
left, so I’ll enjoy this time together with my family. I’ll cross that other
bridge when I get there.

~~~
Reedx
One of the problems with this strategy is that it ends up becoming a burden to
your family and others (who sacrificed to save for a rainy day). And it may
happen sooner than you think.

> _I’m keenly aware that I’ll be left penniless once I can no longer work, but
> I have a plan for that._

What's the plan?

~~~
chongli
_What 's the plan?_

The post sounded to me like the Smith and Wesson retirement plan.

------
martamorena
The article misses out on the math though. She saves 90% percent of her
income? So does she earn 80k after taxes? She would need to earn about 130k+
after taxes to save 90% of her income, given that she is the one who pays all
the expenses, which at 1000$ per 3 people is hard to imagine. Even in a small
German town, where things are dirt-cheap compared to Seattle, 1000$ for 3
persons is almost impossible.

I don't like these headlines. Why does everything have to be clickbait these
days?

~~~
unreal37
It's not that hard.

She rents the house she lives in for more than the cost of her mortgage. She
makes income from that there. They don't own a car. Her husband gets a free
bus pass from work. No housing or transportation expenses. So what's left?
Food?

Her husband works in tech (first Amazon, and now Google!) and saves 100% of
his income. And they live off hers. They have like $1.7 million saved from his
Amazon stock which should be a nice investment income too.

Their expenses are around $1000 per month.

Not that hard to imagine the math.

~~~
bradlys
But it's incredible amounts of luck combined with having a partner who works
for a series of big well paying public companies.

Being able to buy a house and rent it out for more than you pay is /hard/
because it's based on luck. No one in a major tech hub could start and do that
right now. Houses in the bay regularly sell for $10k/month in total cost but
rent for $5-6k. And then immediately say goodbye to 40%+ of your rental income
to taxes. It's just not hard - it's luck.

~~~
travisjungroth
I think they’re saying doing the math isn’t hard. Actually doing the saving
and earning is a different matter.

------
not_a_moth
Not sure what to make of this.

Marrying a rich man was the deus ex machina.

I thought the talk about breaking the "cycle of poverty" was pointing towards
a heroic use of frugality to overcome, but no, solution was marriage.

And then the extremely/uncomfortable frugality, as opposed to healthy
frugality, after becoming rich points to pathology more than anything else.

~~~
humanrebar
> ...solution was marriage...

What if it's an important part of the equation? Stable marriages have rather
strong inverse correlations to poverty levels. Maybe finding someone rich in
this case was especially fortunate, but even marrying someone of similar
economic means tends to be a boon (on average at least).

And pathology... most people are "pathological" in some way. It's hard for me
to tut about personal inclinations too much.

~~~
skinnymuch
The OPs point is marriage to a rich guy. Not just marriage.

------
cercatrova
When I read stories like this, I always think of the systemic factors that are
creating this behavior; that America, and indeed many countries in the world,
do not have the social safety nets to take care of its own people when they
can't work anymore. It would be better and more efficient for a nation as a
whole to take care of its children so that they can choose their own avenues
of success rather than needing to choose between two hard choices. Imagine
where mankind could be if we had everyone being able to have the basics, and
ample free time to think, to explore, to experiment, to create. I dream to see
such a world, and to see the human progress that results.

~~~
double0jimb0
Point to evidence that free time leads people to do these wonderful things.

In a macro sense, biological life/evolution, economics, and production of
goods points to innovation and efficiency gains being made by risking one’s
time/enengy/resources in hope of creating a new local efficient outcome.

Free time has nothing do with that.

~~~
pedro_hab
Yeah,

I like our world isn't wonderful as is.

Imagine what a peasant from 300 years ago would think seeing what their work
would be value at today.

Its peanuts in our perspective, but not starving is a start, eating meat would
be a luxury, being able to see a doctor.

Hating ourselves is trending right now, sad.

~~~
chillwaves
I would certainly hope that 300 years of techonological progress would offer
the basics to a "peasant".

~~~
pedro_hab
I believe the peasant's king would be just as astonished.

Do you think our world isn't incredible, and by far the best a human could
ever hope for so far?

~~~
chillwaves
> by far the best a human could ever hope for so far?

Wow. I am without words.

All I can say is, some people have bigger imaginations than others and being a
slave to capital is not always paradise.

The bit about the king completely misses the point. Again, I would hope that
in 300 years, technological progress UNDER ANY SYSYTEM would afford "miracles"
in the eyes of kings or peasants. jfc.

------
jmpman
She could buy her parents a condo in some nice retirement city for well under
$200k, set them up with an annuity to pay for their food/clothing/etc, and
easily have $1M left in the bank. But to each their own.

------
vibrolax
Saved/invested money is stored freedom, i.e. ability to choose how to live.
The social safety net provided (or not) by others can be changed or withdrawn
by the perfidy of government. It can be great when it works, but when it
doesn't, what are your options? What happens when the usually acceptable
public health care system fails, and you need to get treated right now, or in
a different way than the local system dictates? If you don't have savings
and/or the ability to travel, you will have to take what's offered.

The social safety net may provide some degree of safety, but it often doesn't
offer freedom to choose.

Freedom means being able to take the time to care for yourself or your loved
ones if something happens.

That day came for my family several years ago, and my wife and I are
constantly reminded how much worse things would have been (even here in
enlightened Canada) if we didn't have that kind of freedom.

------
DoubleCribble
This reminds me of the generation that were kids during the Great Depression.
The trauma of food scarcity & poverty often resulted in extreme forms of
frugality that lasted for the rest of their lives. It wouldn't surprise me if
this author also saves/reuses food plastic wrap, scraps of aluminum foil &
rinsed out plastic sandwich bags as my own grandmother did.

------
malshe
The line about saving $1.7 million caught me off guard!

Btw, the woman's blog "Merry for Money" that's linked at the end of the
article has a few extreme methods such as how to make money from PornHub:
[https://merryformoney.com/make-money-
pornhub/](https://merryformoney.com/make-money-pornhub/)

~~~
thoughtfunction
Make $100-$200k/yr from your equity compensation, have that same equity comp
go up 2x (amazon) and you get 800k-1.6m for 4 years of work pre-tax. Add a few
more years on top of that.

------
rofo1
I come from a upper/mid class family and I am the only one in my family that
lives frugally. Technically, I don't have to, but I just can't find any joy in
material things.

As near as I can tell, luxury (think 50k+ $ cars, huge mansions, expensive
clothing, jewelry) exists for one and one reason only: impressing others, and
in particular, males impressing females in hopes of sexually attracting them.
Either that, or people just "going with the flow" without thinking. I cannot
come to any other logical conclusion.

I've noticed that people buying expensive things don't really want to admit
that they are buying it just to show others that they can afford it.

If you can afford food, shelter and some medical/dental care, and you can pay
your bills (electric, gas, internet, whatever) without worrying about them, I
don't think money will improve your happiness. Especially if you need to
endure additional stress for it.

The Western civilization has it extremely good. If only people read history
and truly understood and appreciated what this world consisted of not a
century ago, they'd celebrate each day on the streets. Voltaire says that the
perfect is the enemy of good, and that's a deep message.

I salute these two! If it doesn't bother them, I see no issue with the way
they live whatsoever.

------
lucb1e
Answer: it's to support her parents' retirement.

~~~
neogodless
I do not think this is accurate. While she does provide them with support, the
article states that they actually need very little. She's saving a lot more
than what's needed to support them.

~~~
atomical
They need her to buy them a house. That's not needing a little.

~~~
rasz
Buy a house, or rent for 10-15 years of the rest of their lives?

------
coldtea
At some point it's not about financial independence anymore, but obsessive
frugal behavior triggered by childhood trauma.

In my country the generation that survived German occupation in WWII (and huge
poverty, starvation, etc), had what's casually called "occupation syndrome"
\-- which we use to describe more or less the same kind of behavior.

------
YeahSureWhyNot
she is gonna drive that marriage into the ground. poverty is traumatic but
being overly frugal is going to undermine your quality of life and will have
consequences. she has no idea but her husband fucking hates it, trust me.

------
javagram
> I once had a conversation with my husband about how if I died, he’d have to
> keep taking care of my parents

This seems like life insurance could come in handy. For someone in good health
and relatively young it can be pretty cheap too.

------
temp129038
I just went to a talk by a software engineer in SF who was talking about
effective altruism and how he personally donates 33% of this income to charity
every year...

The one thing about personal finance blogs that consistently bother me is that
they always feel incredibly selfish. How much do they donate to charity every
year? Given the attitude of scrimping every penny I’m guessing very little to
none.

~~~
mynameishere
A group declares themselves a charity, gets a foolish government to go along
with it, and suddenly they deserve, for free, the money that other people
worked for? Okay...

Believe it or not, some people see through this rather obvious scam.

------
theunixbeard
Found the article very interesting and read some articles on the referenced
blogs. More about her husband for those interested:

[https://www.thefrugalgene.com/husband-became-rich-young-
no-m...](https://www.thefrugalgene.com/husband-became-rich-young-no-money/)

------
iamleppert
I’m just waiting for the part where her husband divorces her and takes all
their money and leaves the country.

Life has a way of making a mockery of all your best laid plans.

What’s the point of suffering like this? She has escaped poverty from a
financial perspective but not a mental one.

------
m3kw9
The only practical advise to anyone to not spend money you cannot pay off the
next money, otherwise there is something wrong are about to go seriously wrong
soon with your finances. Telling people to be Frugal is as ambiguous as the
world

------
raintrees
I, too, am building up financial resources for the point where I have to take
care of my parents. They did not plan for their financial future, and now that
they have split up, they are in an even more precarious situation.

Although my mother was an excellent saver (to a fault?), she was not
interested in learning how to amass/raise capital, nor in any type of
investing, other than older, traditional CDs, etc. that are not financially
viable in this age of debt and funny money in the US.

My father is a spendthrift, so there is always a hole in his pocket.

I see in them the reluctance (or refusal?) to shift from the "American Dream"
(go to school, get a good job, save for retirement, your employer/the
government will take care of you) to what it more realistically takes to grow
any sort of wealth in the current US financial climate.

Consumption was the biggest negative factor, I think, as well as the inability
to sacrifice some of the present for the future. It seemed necessary as a kid
growing up, if we were going to keep up with the Jones'. I remember being
envious of having an "Ocean Pacific" jacket as a kid, and the only pair of
"Britannia" jeans I had came from a second hand store. I was very caught up in
the whole name-brand thing... That was the 80's, for me.

Now I save up and invest in Real Estate, effectively short the US dollar, as
that seems to be the vehicle I am most comfortable with. My wife and I are
accelerating the process as much as possible, without scrimping too much, as
her mother, likewise, has little to live on. And being at the mercy of
governmental healthcare is the pits, as I watch both sets of our parents
attempting to navigate those hoops.

So I understand the author's motivation from my own point of view, and I think
she has adopted practices that will serve her well, as long as she also has
enough consideration for taking care of herself, her husband, and any kids
they may choose to have, as well as her parents.

It is definitely possible, although I find I have to ignore all of the
"consume this now" messaging I perceive blasting at me from all angles in
media.

Side benefit: Ignoring that media helps on the political front, though, as
well. I used to become (still sometimes become?) the raving lunatic when I pay
attention to what higher politicians (non-local) and larger government
employees get up to, technically on my behalf.

I feel much more calm ignoring that and focusing only on what I have a chance
of affecting: My home, family, friends, and immediate neighborhood. I have
even served in local government, and although I did not enjoy it (the waste!
the pettiness!) it helped me make more social contacts locally that have
positively affected my life and immediate living environment.

I now volunteer more often, as well, as there is much need in the community,
and few obvious answers (to others' points of view).

It seems to be working for me... YMMV.

------
gigatexal
I’m still trying to make up for studying economics and not CS so 5 years in
(too much time spent in ops) I’m still a very junior dev making a junior dev
salary.

Mad props to them for sure!

------
ab8
She comes from a poor background. Now she is no longer poor, but pretends to
be.

------
RIMR
A family of three living off of $1,000/month in Seattle?

What decade was this actually written in?

~~~
fjsolwmv
It's $1000/mo plus rent which she excludes.

------
tantalor
> A lot of Chinese people know this: It takes more than one generation to
> build stability

A lot of every people know this. It's called "the American dream". You may
have heard of it.

~~~
throwaway2019Z
The American Dream is the polar opposite of relying multiple generations to
achieve stability. The general interpretation of the American Dream is the
notion that any one person can achieve success by working hard enough.

~~~
tantalor
"Success" is subjective; for many it is providing opportunity for your kids
you didn't have, e.g. first generation college.

Plus you don't work in a vacuum by yourself; mutual success is more likely if
you have close relationships with friends and family.

------
savant_penguin
In spite of all that her son may not be accepted in Harvard for being asian

~~~
savant_penguin
Those down voting would mind commenting on why? It is bizarre that racism
against Asians is tolerated because of "too much success". It is especially
harmful to people from low income families.

Here some news stories about it: [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-
america/harvard-asian-ame...](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-
america/harvard-asian-american-discrimination-case-opens-packed-
courtroom-n920376)

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/harvards-
discriminat...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/harvards-
discrimination-against-asian-americans-must-
end/2017/08/08/446ebd6a-7bb1-11e7-a669-b400c5c7e1cc_story.html)

[https://www.foxnews.com/us/harvard-discrimination-trial-
reve...](https://www.foxnews.com/us/harvard-discrimination-trial-reveals-ivy-
league-schools-different-sat-standards-for-asian-americans)

[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/harvard-asian-
enrollme...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/harvard-asian-enrollment-
applicants.html)

[https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/jun/15/harvard-
su...](https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/jun/15/harvard-sued-
discrimination-against-asian-americans)

------
xchaotic
If she wants to make good use of the money, why wait? The longer they're
hoarding it, the longer it stays away from people who need it.

~~~
ChristianBundy
An alternative perspective: [https://meltingasphalt.com/wealth-the-toxic-
byproduct/](https://meltingasphalt.com/wealth-the-toxic-byproduct/)

------
jrobn
If you look back at any wealthy family’s history they all have this story,
especially in the USA. The story basically goes like this: “A long time ago
our great great grandfather lived in a dirt floor home and the family worked
really hard and was frugal and did without and eventually luck came their way
and they made good investments, or happened to be in the right place at the
right for a resource boom, and made a lot of money”.

A lot of middle class Americans could take this path if they __did without
__and the kids worked as soon as able for extra money for the family (you know
like you have to when you have no other choice) but we have to have the nice
home, white picket fence, big SUV, expensive sports, iPads and android phones,
and as soon as the kids turn 16 they must have a car of their own, etc...

Modern life by design now (it is designed) requires more and more to get by.
You need a car to get to work because of the awful thing called suburbia. You
need a expensive cell to make sure you get the call for that job offer. Where
you had to submit a PDF copy of your resume which you had to type on a
computer somewhere and have access to Internet to send it.

The downside is you miss out on this fabled childhood luxury that has only
been a thing for the last 80 years of human existence.

~~~
BurningFrog
On one level all wealthy families have this history simple because not long
ago _everyone_ was dirt poor.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Yup. The part of the story that is actually doing most of the work here is
"and eventually luck came their way and they made good investments, or
happened to be in the right place at the right for a resource boom".

