
Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them. - musha68k
https://medium.com/@bryanedds/hackerlivesmatter-d5cf25bbeaac#.3cb3z6h1u
======
codyb
This article more seemed to suggest that extremely intelligent people are more
likely to get into trouble than any apparent root cause to me. In Schwartz and
Turing's case, while the law was misguided, it compounded their stressors and
took their lives. In the one fellows case he apparently broke into someone's
house wasted and was arrested. And there was the guy announcing his suicide on
twitter (that might be the same guy, can't remember), a serious call for help.

I'm not so sure this article made me think it's endemic to the software
industry. Large numbers of people commit suicide in the United States and
abroad every year. Maybe it's the cultural stressors of bills, and grades, and
social exclusion, and yada yada yada onward and onward for as long as you'd
like that contributes to the high rates of suicide in high stress
environments.

And then this weird tangential aside about Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump and
how they'd be equally disastrous convinced me this was an emotional plea for
_something_ (the vague sentiment that we should treat eachother like humans
regardless of seniority when humans don't particularly have a great track
record on that front and while... positive is just as _kooky_ if not much more
so than anything Bernie Sanders has said) not particularly well grounded in
reality and with no proposed solutions besides a call for empathy.

If you want people to stop commiting suicide you need to take away their major
stressors which compound their depressive states. Correct the law so that gays
are free to be themselves. Pay people living wages so their bank accounts have
at least a small buffer. Make sure health care and education are affordable
and accessible.

So in a way his potential future vote for Bernie based on Bernie's empathy was
the wrong path to the right choice. It's not just in this individual instance
that Bernie feels empathetic towards man, but in almost all instances of
Bernie's recorded public profile. Whether it comes to the oppression of
African Americans and gays, or to the inability to pay bills or access health
care of education of the lower and middle class Americans he represents,
Bernie has consistently been on the empathetic side of the equation.

But it's his policy proposals which make Bernie the right man for the job, not
his empathy which shaped them.

~~~
solipsism
To paraphrase Nietzsche, to live is to experience stressors. The changes
you're talking about might (might!) lower the number of stressors in people's
lives and thus have an overall positive impact on mental health, but a better
path toward that goal, in my opinion, is to encourage people to seek the help
necessary to _deal_ with stressors.

Edit: you did mention making mental healthcare accessible, but it wasn't the
brunt of your message.

~~~
mojuba
Let's take an edge case: you are a slave in America, 18th century. Here, some
antidepressants and some free psychotherapy time for you. Happier now?

~~~
solipsism
Quite an edge case to be both a slave in 18th century America and in the
software development industry, which is what we're talking about here.

~~~
mojuba
I was responding to this:

> _a better path toward that goal, in my opinion, is to encourage people to
> seek the help necessary to deal with stressors_

There is almost always a flip side to your personal stress: some dissonance,
disharmony in the outside world. Some of those who feel stressed go out and
fight for harmony in the world, and they lose. That's what we are talking
about here.

~~~
solipsism
This is meaningless. Stress is a natural state. Human lives have forever been
stressful, because stress exists for a purpose. To set out to eliminate all
"dissonances" and "disharmonies" is a fool's errand.

The wisest people from vastly different cultures -- from Nietzsche who I quote
above to the Buddha -- have recognized that suffering is inevitable. Sure,
some stressors can be dealt with. But others can't.

If someone is having trouble coping, and he's a software developer in a
developed country who has free time to write blogs, the best advice to that
person is to seek help learning how to cope.

~~~
mojuba
By "developed" countries you mean those deeply indebted societies driven by
the fear of losing a job? Where software managers and founders push to the
limits because they have the leverage? Of course you can talk to a therapist
or read some Nietsche (or some Buddhism) and your problems will go away.

~~~
solipsism
I said you learn to cope with problems, not that they go away. I also never
said there aren't ways to eliminate stressors. The point is that "go out and
do something instead of whining about it in a blog" is a shitty thing to say
to someone you don't know who is crying for help, and not helpful. "Consider
seeing a therapist," who might not only teach you to cope but also help you
change things that can be changed, is much more wise.

------
cushychicken
Reading the precursor essay, "Living in the Age of Software Fuckery" begs a
pretty big question: if the author has such a clear picture of the structural
flaws inherent in software development organizations, why isn't he out there
starting his own firm and hiring all of these mistreated, misunderstood
developers and making a killing off of all of their limitless creativity?

~~~
crdoconnor
>Why isn't he out there starting his own firm

Probably because access to capital, connections, luck and the ability to sell
are more critical than good ideas.

You don't think that Uber could have been you if you'd 'just written a ride
sharing app' in 2008 do you? :)

~~~
mojuba
It has become almost given that if you are not a (co)founder of a startup yet
then something is wrong with you.

------
erik_landerholm
Yes being a startup founder is stressful. Before joining YC I ran through my
401k, my cofounder almost lost his house and we had two little kids each at
the time. To join YC we left our wives and kids in Portland and moved into an
office next to drug dealers (YC only gave 5k per founder at that time), etc,
etc.

Not everyone can handle stress like that...I'm not sure I could ever do that
again. You have to know what you can handle and what you can't.

I'm sure there are abuses of engineers in the valley, but it's not indentured
servitude. This article makes it sound like these people were slaves with no
options...that's categorically untrue except maybe in Aaron schwart's and
Turing's cases.

Also, how many software engineers in the valley or other places are happy with
their jobs? I bet it's a higher percentage than say work at McDonald's....

~~~
Smudge
There's a survivorship bias in what you describe. How many others in your
position, who perhaps thought they knew what they could handle, _did_ end up
losing their houses, and/or racked up years and years of debt on a gamble that
didn't end up paying off? It's something we don't really talk about in this
industry, but I suspect it happens more often than the success stories.

~~~
erik_landerholm
If I had known what I was going to go through I'm not sure I would of done it,
but it's also my personality to never give up. I always keep looking for a way
through, around or out of problems. So, I always feel like I'll be OK. I might
not get the optimal solution, but i can deal with most situations. Now....what
happened to Aaron and Turing...to me that's different.

Our startup wasn't really successful. We didn't return money to our investors.
We were 'bought' by another company, but that was just a talent acquisition.
Since then we have been successful at the new company...again...because of
nothing more than we will stick to what we believe is right longer than
others. I'm able to withstand a lot of resistance and I only take a few
people's opinions seriously. So other people not liking me or not wanting to
be apart of what we are trying to do has little effect on me. Not everyone is
like that. If you aren't this startup/running companies is not something you
should indulge in...the stresses will break you down.

It's really important to have a people you work with that you can rely on and
commiserate with. Without that it could get to anyone, save a true psychopath.

Paul has given reasons for why he didn't want to invest in single cofounders,
but I'm not sure he ever articulated it that way. For me having a partner made
this experience bearable. It wasn't what I would call fun though.

------
SeanDav
While I applaud any effort to create a better work and living environment, I
am not sure that the article is that accurate in one of its premises that the
software industry has a high or even higher suicide rate then any other
industry, for example:

[http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/01/06/top-11-professions-w...](http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/01/06/top-11-professions-
with-highest-suicide-rates/)

Absolutely, we should be doing all we can to address depression and unhealthy
stress and to attempt to eliminate all contributory factors. So in general
terms I support this article but it is perhaps a bit sensationalist.

------
njharman
Just like I don't believe violent video games create homocidal sociopaths. I
don't think software industry creates depressives.

We are born that way. I would be depressive no matter what I worked in.
Probably even if I was trust fund baby and didn't have a care in the world.
Which, of course, never is true. My depression makes my life stressful, makes
it lonely, makes it "hard" to live. Depression is the source, the root cause,
the disease. Not a symptom. [to be clear the word depression is broadly used.
You can be depressed (and I imagine everyone has been at one point or another
and this is caused by external factors, say death of love ones) without
suffering depression. Big D Depression is like a phobia, in that it is
irrational. One is depressed for NO reason. None. Not a hidden one, or
misunderstood, etc. (I mean no external reason, it's physically probably brain
chemistry). And there may be other kinds of Big D depression. But this is the
one I'm an expert on. And the problem is with me, not you/inustry/society.
Although, you can help with symptoms such as not firing me after spending a
week in bed not answering phone.

Also, using Turing as evidence of author's point about Software Industry is
disingenuous.

------
quickben
It's a solvable problem with a very subjective solution.

For me. After working at stock exchanges and whatnot; I decided that every day
I'd walk through that door at 9am with three fucks in my register and walk out
at 5 with three of them still there.

Burnouts aren't worth it. Salary difference of x% is dealth by switching jobs
if needed.

We are in demand. Get at least normal rest every day out of it. Or you'll hate
what you love and live to do.

------
fsloth
I emphatize with depression on a deep level. The population of software
developers is so large that just picking a few known cases of depression makes
for an argument of unknown statistical strength.

One thing is known - software development is hard, potentially stressfull with
recurring pathologies that really don't have any known remedies except
'dedicated craftmanship'.

On the other hand, a few of the examples pinpointed to a cruel and unkind
society as the root cause of depressive issues - system issued chemical
horrors in the case of Alan Turing and zealous politically ambitious
ptosecutor in the case of Schwartz.

The issue is then not that the software shop cannot function always as the
surrogate family but that systems should not treat individuals cruelly.

Which is an admirable dream - but goes really weirdly with antagonizing with
liberal politics. Anarchism would not lead to a kinder society with the human
species as it is.

------
willholloway
If you are feeling this sad, look up a ketamine clinic near you and get some
infusions going.

I haven't myself, but I have heard amazing turnaround stories.

If you are this depressed, your brain has atrophied, your dendrites look like
deciduous trees in winter.

After you get infused, and ketamine activates the mTOR pathway and you feel a
sense of joy again, you will be really grateful you didn't kill yourself.

------
mrottenkolber
I find the notion that humans can be more or less inhumane troubling. Its
really just arbitrary segregation whose only use I can imagine is to
dehumanize persons. Same goes for calling people sociopaths etc. Everybody
does what they think is best, for them and for the world. Somebody in politics
is way stupider than you and thus ruins the world... that's an opinion, and an
understandable one too. But is it productive?

That being said I absolutely agree with the sentiment of the article. Humans
haven't yet figured out how to live together in cooperation instead of
violence, and changing this is the most important goal we have. We must
actively protest injustice, and create spaces were we can live in self
determination. Join your local anarchist movement, make up your own mind,
learn and work together with others so we can someday create a social fabric
that is open and peaceful.

~~~
njharman
> find the notion that humans can be more or less inhumane troubling

You aren't going to "fix" human nature. At least not without eugenics and
execution of those who don't think "right". Saying we should be humane and
cooperate with each other doesn't cut it. It's as much a pipe dream as
anarchism. Although I agree with that philosophy it's never gonna work with
humans. High number of sociopaths, prison experiments, the us vs attitude that
permeates must all human social constructs, preponderance of human history is
the proof. Humans are just too shitty to have nice things.

~~~
mrottenkolber
What do you mean by fix? I am talking about improving the situation. History
has proven this is very well possible. Women can vote now. Slaves in America
became rare. There is a notion of human and international rights, which is
quite new. Witches aren't burnt, gay sex doesn't get you killed. Do you think
that the status-quo is as good as we can do? I don't thin so.

------
pmarreck
While these were all tragic, they are hardly representative.

Do you know how when you ride a bicycle and look off to one side, you tend to
steer towards that side, involuntarily?

Stop being obsessed with oppression, depression and suicide. Not to downplay
them, but you have free will (oh, debatable, sure, but it's better for
happiness to just believe you do) and can act, and can steer your
consciousness towards more positive points on the horizon.

~~~
majewsky
> Stop being obsessed with [...] depression.

So you're one of the persons who would suggest to clinically depressed people
to "just smile again" as if that would magically solve all their problems and
mental disorders?

The point is that even if such people are a minority, we should treat them
with the appropriate discretion and be sensitive to their psychological needs.

~~~
pmarreck
> who would suggest to clinically depressed people to "just smile again" as if
> that would magically solve all their problems and mental disorders?

No. I'm not saying that at all, and tried to point that out. But something
like 75% of this article is focusing squarely on unhappiness. That's all I'm
saying. If all you do is write about unhappiness and end up suiciding, is it
really that surprising? Your body is what you consume physically; your mind is
what you consume media-wise. If all you do is read Sylvia Plath poetry all
day, and then write poetry inspired by Sylvia Plath, then you may in fact end
up just like she did.

What tipped me off is that he even said he wanted to suicide dozens of times.
Which on the one hand, is kind of "TMI" for an article like this, and on the
other hand... _so why are you reading about other suicides?_

 _That_ is what I'm saying.

That, and most of the people cited already had diagnosable mental
difficulties, which means he is _openly_ confusing the apparent proximal cause
between "oppressed IT person" and "is emotionally-challenged already"

One night not too long ago, I couldn't sleep, and for whatever reason I
decided to watch 9/11 videos on YouTube. Guess what happened? I fell asleep
and had nightmares, and for the next day(s) I was depressed as hell. I surely
didn't function as well as I could and, dare I say it, I am sure I brought
less goodness into the world as a result. All because I focused on watching
9/11 videos and listening to final phone calls and watching people fall to
their deaths from great heights, one night.

It's worldview distortion, basically. _Yes,_ bad things happen and sometimes,
bosses are jerks. _Yes,_ _some_ people have emotional difficulties (some of
which should be treated clinically). _Yes,_ IT careers seem to draw in a
bumper-crop of sensitive folks (it's the curse of high intelligence, really).
From this, you cannot draw the conclusion that there is a systematic problem
going on.

Disclaimer: I'm diagnosed ADD, AND sleep apnea, and (sometimes) take meds for
it (on bad days when I really need to function), so I'm not the kind of person
who wouldn't understand that some things just need treatment.

