
Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers - altoidaltoid
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/cisco-cited-for-bias-against-us-workers
======
uissna
This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate
with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies
preferentially hire them over Americans.

Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are
actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the
recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing
the best jobs to shift more to immigrants and less to Americans.

The whole visa and immigration system needs huge reform. I am not anti
immigrant but the immigration system disproportionately hurts American
software engineers and American tech. You don't see many visa holders working
in sales and marketing, or teaching, or law, mostly just software engineering
(at the high end) and then migrant farming and illegal immigrant factory
workers (at the low end).

~~~
fjsolwmv
Attracting the most talented immigrants is exactly what this country needs to
grow its economy. There are nearly no unemployed top talent, and talent
(including immigrants) grows demand. Look how many startups are spawned from
the top tech company veterans. Taking in brilliant immmigrants is a defenst
against the whole industry shifting the balance of power to a different
country.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
That's great except that H1B is not supposed to be used to suppress domestic
salaries or replace existing workers (Disney IT). This is openly happening and
the government won't do anything to correct this illegal behavior. It's 2018
and Trump's executive order has amounted to nothing.

Consider these 2016 numbers from USCIS [1] (Can't find 2017 data. Wonder why).
All of the Indian body shops pay sub-$90K as their average salary whereas all
of the top domestic sponsors are paying significantly more. I'm sure the
medians are even worse. So all a US company has to do is play the contractor
shuffle and get cheaper labor. Also note that there are no listings for people
with master's or doctorate degrees. H1B is clearly not being used for its
intended effect.

[1]
[https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Re...](https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/Immigration%20Forms%20Data/BAHA/h-1b-2016-employers.pdf)

~~~
tom_
I’m on an iPad so I can’t check, but i think the underlying data for H1-B info
comes from here:
[https://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm](https://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm)
(click ‘Disclosure data’, download enormous PERM spreadsheet)

------
taurath
> Cisco, which reported $43 billion in revenue last year, employs more than
> 73,000 workers at its headquarters in San Jose, Calif., and international
> offices. The company employed nearly 1,600 visa holders last year.

If this number seems low, thats because it is. They probably "employ" another
70,000 contract workers, many of which are also on visas, but since they're
not on the "official" payroll they don't show up. That they were cited at all
for the 1600 visa workers in the first place is astounding to me.

~~~
gnahckire
> They probably "employ" another 70,000 contract workers, many of which are
> also on visas, but since they're not on the "official" payroll they don't
> show up.

Used to work there. I was always surprised at the volume of contractors and
contracting companies were embedded within the ranks.

------
lvspiff
Sad thing is - if this is going on at Cisco imagine what goes on in the farm
fields, the restaurants, the hotels, and the rest of the lowest paying jobs in
this country. If it takes YEARS to build a case against giant company how many
little guys are getting away with it on a daily basis?

~~~
conanbatt
Oh god, how many burritos have you ate that were made by an ILLEGAL!

~~~
candiodari
... who was underpaid, to a level where properly living is out of the
question. Who was abused and threatened into unpaid overtime.

Just saying there's other considerations too. I get that these practices mean
that it's likely a better burrito, but it's wrong.

~~~
conanbatt
You are not doing that person any favor by banning them from the US.

~~~
candiodari
That's how it works, isn't it ? They improve the fate of a single person, to a
totally unsatisfactorily low level, and thereby drag down everyone.

So yes you're not helping that individual. In fact you're damaging that
individual potentially a lot. But you're helping far more people a little bit.

~~~
conanbatt
What a great humanitarian endeavor, to punish the weakest and most vulnerable
for the benefit of the whole.

~~~
candiodari
The same can be said about the opposite: allow immigrants to take up the
lowest jobs thinking it'll provide a decent life. That is a lie, and steals
that opportunity of a decent life from others too.

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ProfessorLayton
It seems like a good solution to H1B abuse is to get rid of the lottery and
move towards a bid system, but the "bid" is the foreign worker's salary. This
will solve the wage suppression issue, and will grant access to talent to
companies that are willing and able to pay for it.

~~~
mc32
You can also just tax the difference from prevailing wages; take those taxes
and earmark them for training of laid off workers of same industry.

~~~
jedberg
In theory all H1B workers already get “prevailing wage”. It’s part of the law.
So the tax would be 0.

The issue is that it really isn’t prevailing wage.

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kevin_b_er
Corporate greed at its finest. The goal was to hire employees at lower wages
and who couldn't just up and leave for another company next door so easily.
This combined gets them workers who aren't allowed to negotiate and who are
cheaper than normal workers.

When driven only by greed, all methods to get more money are always
acceptable... unless you are caught.

~~~
briandear
That’s not greed, that’s smart business. Why would you pay more for something
if you didn’t have to? Is it greedy to take advantage of a sale on fruit at
the grocery store rather than paying full price?

The problem is visa law, not companies following that law.

~~~
rmrfrmrf
Might be a controversial opinion, but I think we as humans have lost sight of
the ball when we start letting capitalism drive ethics.

~~~
conanbatt
And what ethics tell you that you should have the right to bar other people
from working with other people?

~~~
rmrfrmrf
For Americans, reducing income disparity, which in turn would allow more money
to flow within the US.

For foreign employees, ending a program of indentured servitude that dangles
the prospect of citizenship in front of them while providing substandard pay
and limited mobility.

For foreign governments, bringing talent back to their countries rather than
cash, enabling the development of their own businesses and growth of their own
economy.

~~~
conanbatt
> For Americans, reducing income disparity, which in turn would allow more
> money to flow within the US.

You mean increase income disparity. More foreign software engineers would
lower the median salary of a software engineer in the us, which is in the top
bracket of earners. Increasing the salary of software engineers increases
income disparity between those and the median.

Also, i thought the point was to make an ethical one, not a money one.

> For foreign employees, ending a program of indentured servitude that dangles
> the prospect of citizenship in front of them while providing substandard pay
> and limited mobility.

Oh why thank you. Did you ask foreign employees if they like your idea of
banning them from the US for their own benefit?

> For foreign governments, bringing talent back to their countries rather than
> cash, enabling the development of their own businesses and growth of their
> own economy.

If you have a concern for the well-being of foreign governments over the
interests in the US, you can advocate or better measures than punishing
foreign people.

------
cc-d
Cap minimum pay to the equivalent of $150k yearly and watch as the h1b visa
program magically starts working as intended.

The solution is not complicated. With the anti-immigrant rhetoric pouring from
the current administration, I'm surprised that blatant h1b visa abuse is still
rampant.

~~~
jeremyjh
There is no need for an artificial cap, just make it a bidding system. The
companies bid for how many workers at salary $X. Highest bids are awarded the
visas. Problem solved.

~~~
cc-d
This may work for tech, but I'm guessing there are quite a few other
industries with low volumes of h1b applicants/workers which could utilize a
"bidding system" to hire well below market rate due to decreased demand when
compared to tech.

$150k cap across the board ensures that all industries are kept honest. A
bidding system can be added on top of that, if needed, but this extremely
simple fix would ensure that the system fulfills the original goals it was
created for, while adding no bureaucratic overhead.

~~~
Aloha
better idea - just make it 25-50% above prevailing wage for that kind of work.

~~~
jlawer
Australian here, but had similar ideas about the visa situation in .au however
I think you can't just do a +X% of "prevailing wage"

If the prevailing wage is calculated based on an average, you will find big
business will get lower payed workers bundled in to the industry average (i.e.
apple has retail staff, most companies have call centre staff, all have
janitorial staff, etc) and the "prevailing wage" will be significantly lower
then it should be.

If its based on job title you will just find every visa holder will have a
"lower" job title (i.e. Junior rather then senior) that gives the companies a
way to pay less.

Thats before factoring cost of living between various locations.

Special interests will ensure that the prevailing wage is drawn sufficiently
lower then it should be.

I think it has to remain a static value (adjusted for inflation) that is quite
high (e.g. $180k->$250k AUD for Australia), enough that anyone who a company
will pay that much would almost certainly be a world class employee, and if
someone is worth that much, then I can't see how they wouldn't be a benefit
for both the country / economy, employee and the competitiveness of the
company. I have no issue with this being an unlimited visa class, and should
be able to be streamlined for a much quicker approval (i.e. has the company
signed an agreement that they are paying $X per year?, if yes its approved
pending health and security approval).

This allows companies to hire the best in the world, while not allowing them
to drive down salaries with similarly skilled employees. Additionally if there
is a shortage it will ensure there is some pressure to train / develop
employees, innovate, automate, etc, but providing a pressure relief if needed
(if supply and demand becomes unbalanced enough that people are willing to pay
$180k for janitorial staff, then economically they are needed).

------
yanslookup
This is more common than you'd imagine and it's telling that a company the
size of Cisco can't hide it.

Between OPT and H1B the relationship between tech and immigration is grim.

~~~
lvspiff
Its like the secret everyone knows, but nobody wants to do anything about
unless they get caught. Even then when they get caught the worst punishment
they will get is a days profit MAYBE. Its easier to pay a $100 million fine
every 10 years than to have to pay reasonable wages.

~~~
conanbatt
It is truly a wonder of the free market that if fights against the
discrimination of immigration laws.

------
turtlecloud
American engineers are getting shafted by the H1B visa program. The H1B work
harder because they have a figurative gun pointed at their heads. Work or
leave the country. Why would any sane American work that hard?

It is a race to the bottom and the big tech companies at playin with fire. The
societal damage is currently unquantifiable, but for an astute observers and
people with common sense it’s not good.

------
WalterSear
When I was at Juniper Networks, Indian managers would routinely hire Indian
employees on H1, underpay them to make them look competitive compared to US
employees, and then pay them an additional salary through the Indian office,
hiding this from the other departments, and the 'white' people.

~~~
mavelikara
> and then pay them an additional salary through the Indian office, hiding
> this from the other departments

Where does this money come from? This should be budgeted somewhere, so I don't
understand how this is "hidden" from others.

Also, if you knew this they probably didn't do a good job of "hiding" it, did
they?

~~~
im_cynical
Not OP, but I spent 5 years at Cisco. It wouldn't be terribly hard to hide
opex in a company that size.. there's a good deal of discretion given to
middle management with their budgets and non-existent oversight.

------
phyller
I've seen it stated several times here on hacker news that the visas should be
available for the highest salaries. And that's it. No lottery. If you want
them, pay them. That makes tons of sense to me on a lot of levels, it is going
to naturally destroy abuse, recruit the best and brightest to come to the US,
and not cause unfair discrimination against American workers.

1,600 visa workers for Cisco seems really low though. Anecdata, but my company
hired a VP from Cisco and from that point until they left we made a lot of
hires, but not a single American that I am aware of.

------
throwaway28473
Honest question: if immigrants are willing to do the same job for less money,
why do US citizens deserve special treatment and higher wages? Why should
companies be forced to not hire in an economically optimal way?

~~~
alehul
I think the simpler form of that question is "what's wrong with globalism?",
to which there's many answers.

One of the foremost would be that an American company should support the
livelihoods of the American people, especially as long as other countries like
China wouldn't allow an American to work so easily in the reverse situation.
It's just a natural tribal instinct, also, to care more for the welfare of
your neighbor than someone across the world.

I'm not commenting on the validity of those arguments, though, as I think a
core part of America's success is being unusually open to immigration.

~~~
fjsolwmv
The main problem with globalism is that capital conspires against labor but
labor doesn't respond with a unified front.

~~~
taurath
Companies and money can cross borders, people cannot (generally).

------
petilon
If immigrants are depressing salaries, how do you explain $120,000 (base +
stock + bonus) for fresh graduates, paid by Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple,
Microsoft, etc? [https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/05/heres-how-much-new-grads-
wil...](https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/05/heres-how-much-new-grads-will-make-at-
companies-like-facebook-and-google-in-2017.html)

It's a hardened belief that jobs are a zero-sum game — and from this arises
the idea that every skilled immigrant takes away a job from a U.S. worker.
This isn't true. More skilled, educated workers will actually add to the
economy — and grow the economy.

Some companies abuse the system, and the abuse must be stopped. But
immigration of the best and the brightest is what made this country a
superpower, and must be encouraged.

See also: [http://paulgraham.com/95.html](http://paulgraham.com/95.html)

~~~
Kephael
There are not unlimited new graduate roles at these companies, Microsoft was
telling students they passed the interview but that slots were full at the
school I attend.

------
cisco-throwaway
I work here!

I also participated in this!

We needed to hire a few people at a smaller Cisco site for a project in a less
than favourite BU. Recruitment reached out to me after my rec didn’t find any
fits in a week and the pushed a couple candidates my way. As these candidates
required sponsorship, we knew that we could probably retain them for less and
for longer. I don’t have anything against Americans, but if I can get someone
who is better educated, will not jump ship in 18 months, and will do more for
less then I’ll jump all over that.

Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

~~~
dudul
Is 1 week of open rec legally enough to justify hiring an H1B? I thought the
legal requirement to justify the petition was longer than that.

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tawa2989
Worked at another big Californian semiconductor company for several years.
Directors/middle managers, mostly Americans, would always joke about how easy
it was to get H1Bs hired and all the shady stuff they did to not have to
actually advertise the position. They got great bonuses, life was good.

Eventually, {specific H1B subgroup} made up a significant portion of the
company as they always continue to hire more of {specific H1B subgroup} at the
expense of everyone else. During a downturn several years ago, there was a
tremendous layoff to try to maintain profitability.

Most of the old guard, almost all the older higher paid Americans that didn't
make it to the VP level, got axed.

You reap what you sow.

------
Aloha
I think the answer to this problem is to require H1B holders to be paid 25-50%
above prevailing wage for that job type or sector, which would preclude just
picking up someone on H1B for cost reasons.

~~~
conanbatt
I heard a story once that in acity with rat infestations, the government
proposed a bounty for each rat-tail that could be shown as evidence of having
killed a rat. Promptly the rat population increased exponentially.

If you made the race to salary, you can remove health benefits, PTO, stock,
restricted bonuses, etc etc to artificially increase the number which would in
the end harm the worker as well, since he will pay a higher tax rate for the
shenanigan.

------
krob
I've heard rumors that this is the same at the big O, and for years with the
big blue too.

------
jtr_47
H1B needs to be abolished. It has only been used to suppress US wages and to
bring in lower paying bodies to do the same work a properly trained US Citizen
could perform in IT. There's no shortage of IT skills in the USA.

They should be punished to the fullest.

~~~
seventhtiger
That doesn't add up at all. How can there not be shortage of IT skills? IT is
one of if not the most profitable field per employee with the lowest
unemployment rates, and IT companies are flush with cash.

IT companies would love to launch entire new products and divisions and
recruitment is their bottleneck.

------
tfolbrecht
I'm curious to see what happens if a company like Huawei enters the US
networking hardware market after cutting its teeth. Are we supposed to go with
Cisco out of patriotism? Is the general public going to petition the
government for protectionism?

I also wonder how long it takes wage suppression to propagate out into lower
demand and shrinking GDP growth.

~~~
briandear
I would go with Cisco because I wouldn’t trust a company that’s essentially a
commercial arm of the Chinese MSS.

------
rdl
I'd love to see H1B completely done away with. Transferrable visas for non-
immigrant status freely available in exchange for a fairly massive bond and
annual fee ($50-100k/yr), and immigrant visas on a much less expensive basis
based on merit.

------
kraig911
Something needs to happen for positive change. My Indian friend recently
fathered a baby and couldn't see his son almost a year later. Politics getting
in the way of people just trying to make the world a better place as per
usual.

------
gdilla
So easy to fix. If you believe in free market, you also need the labor pool to
be free. Let H1Bs be able to change jobs like anyone else, and wages will
rise. Pretty simple. Indentured servitude is anti free market.

------
tanilama
If Cisco pay fair share to all its employees, regardless of their status, how
much more money will it cost? I would say it won't be a big number as compare
to their executives bonuses.

~~~
conanbatt
They wouldnt pay the fair share. They would hire less people and spend a total
amount on salaries that is lower than it is now.

------
jcafe
Almost ironic that this article is from Bloomberg. Recently interviewed with
them for a software engineer role and the only american I talked to out of 6
people, was the recruiter.

~~~
aatharuv
How do you know that? Did you ask everyone their citizenship /immigration
status during the interview?

~~~
stochastic_monk
It could be that the GP was using “American” to represent an issue of race
rather than one of citizenship.

~~~
jcafe
I'm asian-american myself and I was interviewed by other asians who I had
trouble understanding despite being brought up around my own family's accent.
I wasn't using "american" to represent race or citizenship.

I didn't see think of them as american because we clearly did not share
anything in common and had trouble communicating with each other.

Side note: My grandmother is a US citizen, but she only knows how to say
"Hello" and "thank you" in english. Bringing in citizenship feels
disingenuous.

EDIT: Citizenship comment is regarding this conversation and not the article
itself. Sorry if it seemed like an attack.

~~~
stochastic_monk
The point of this article is citizenship. I was just trying to understand the
point you were making, and thank you for being clear.

------
oh_sigh
Supposing it is true, why would Cisco prefer work visa holders over US
citizens? Lower salaries? Less job mobility(meaning longer average tenure)?

~~~
daviddavis
Did you read the article? It’s literally the first sentence.

~~~
grumpopotamus
Please see the Hacker News guidelines!

>Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even
read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions
that."

~~~
s73v3r_
At the same time, if you clearly didn't read the article, you should expect to
be called out on it.

------
abtinf
Here is a good talk on how to think about three deeply connected topics that
are under attack today.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXiC4wqn7EU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXiC4wqn7EU)

\---

Free Trade, Immigration and Robots, Oh My!

One of the biggest threats America faces—we are told—is the assault on our
workforce: the loss of American jobs to immigrants, to foreign competition
fueled by free trade, and even to technology that will make all kinds of jobs
obsolete. In this talk the Ayn Rand Institute's executive chairman, Yaron
Brook, argues that this fear is entirely misplaced—that a proper grasp of the
virtue of productiveness shows that far from fearing and opposing free trade,
immigration and robots, we should be eagerly embracing all three.

\---

