
Can They Make Government Jobs as Cool as Google and Goldman? - rmason
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/can-they-make-government-jobs-as-cool-as-google-and-goldman/2018/07/20/da230dc4-8b83-11e8-a345-a1bf7847b375_story.html
======
dsr_
Those aren't cool companies, those are just paid a lot.

Cool is working on something that you, personally, find important -- and
making progress.

The biggest barrier to that in government is being allowed to make progress,
partially because the existing processes have a large inertia, and partially
because the cost of failure is so high.

~~~
christophilus
This was my thought, as well. I've never in my life heard of this purported
Goldman and cool association.

~~~
goatherders
You dont work on Wall Street.

~~~
kasey_junk
I have. Goldman didn’t have a reputation for cool. They had a reputation for
being a good stepping stone to something else.

Ditto in tech. It’s been a long time since Google had a reputation for cool.
They have a reputation for paying well & being good on the resume.

------
nimbius
ugh, hard to imagine. As a former motor pool mechanic for a small county in
Ohio, the government has some serious work to do before it will ever compete
with google, and its all in management. Ive endured some truly idiotic days at
government...including

\- Racking up 8 industry certifications, fully paid, only to have all my ideas
shot down because they didnt come from a manager with a degree in philosophy.

\- Buying an expensive flush computer system for a type of truck that we
already outsourced transmission flushes for, and that was being phased out in
favour of something cheaper from International Harvester.

\- Refusing...and i mean absolutely refusing...to fix any salt spreader
hardware because meyer (the manufacturer) insisted everything would last 40k
miles. \- trying to explain we dont measure in miles, we measure in engine
hours. all reports still list miles.

\- watching the city basically sell off 5 salt spreading trucks because a
lawsuit after one failed made them all 'a liability'

\- replacing a fleet of Kodiak 4x4 HD salt spreaders with used Ford F250's
from a construction fleet. \- watching these all fail miserably after the
first major snow storm.

\- Borrowing...then buying and poorly repainting...trucks for salt spreading
from the National Guard.

\- Getting dinged on my performance review EVERY YEAR because management
wouldnt buy parts I needed to make the sheriffs new mine resistant armored
vehicle work.

~~~
doctorRetro
I had a previous job in the trucking industry, and while I wasn't involved in
maintenance, I swear we had scenarios occur that match your observations
eerily well. As an aside, this may be a dumb question, but why does a Sheriff
in a "small county" need a mine resistant armoured vehicle?

~~~
alistairSH
They don't. But, there are a few things that make them want them. First, the
US military sells them cheap as surplus (or, at least did, they might have
dialed that back recently). Second, police in the US fetishize the "operator"
culture [1]. They've been trained to think that a large hammer will fix all
their policing problems.

1 -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces)

------
ToFab123
There is nothing cool about Goldman. That company have created more havoc in
ordinary people economy than any other private company ever had. IMHO Goldman
is the definition of scumbags. "cool" is defiantly not the word that comes to
my mind when I hear that name

~~~
booleandilemma
A worked with an ex-Goldman employee and she was the most backstabbing person
I have ever met. The experience made me wonder if they select for that.

------
sailfast
Readers will note the article is about state and local government jobs.

Everyone should try to work in government at some point to understand why
things so relevant to your life happen the way they do, and to be better
citizens.

State and local has huge challenges in terms of funding and potentially old
infrastructure, but also incredible opportunities to change lives with simple
improvements in processes that haven’t gotten the love they deserve.

Wage increases would help, but two year “tours” with other benefits might at
least help folks understand why the mission is so important and maybe bust up
some staid organization with some new energy.

Good luck to these folks - they’ll need it.

~~~
wolfgke
> Everyone should try to work in government at some point to understand why
> things so relevant to your life happen the way they do, and to be better
> citizens.

I disagree: Working in something government related makes you deeply hate the
government.

To give some background: When I get involved into political discussions (which
I rather avoid for good reasons), people very often tell me privately
afterwards that I gave really good arguments for my points of discussion, but
my arguments and political direction are so different from anything they have
heard so far and could hardly be more different from any party program of any
party they heard of (needless to say that I do not feel in any sense
represented by any party in Germany). So they privately do agree with many
points that I introduce, but openly state to me that they are not be able to
defend these arguments in public because they are so different from the
current political agenda.

To me this is deeply frustrating.

> State and local has huge challenges in terms of funding and potentially old
> infrastructure, but also incredible opportunities to change lives with
> simple improvements in processes that haven’t gotten the love they deserve.

This is exactly what government is _not_ about. It is obeying some strange set
of laws perfectly instead of doing what really makes sense.

~~~
alistairSH
I don't disagree, but working as a bureaucrat is not the same as having a
political debate. Most bureaucrats are doing work that needs done regardless
of political alignment (of the employee, or of the current administration).
Leading the police department, sanitation department, etc - none are strictly
political positions.

~~~
wolfgke
I disagree, since making things more effective often makes things very
political. I just want to mention that in many cases, the law requires time-
intensive tendering procedures, which are clearly not very efficient or
effective.

There do exist some exceptions, but then you need a decision by the respective
political commitee to allow such an exception. Here things get very ...
political.

This holds for many other points, too: The existing laws do not allow one to
work efficiently and effectively. This is only possible if you are good at
playing the political game.

~~~
sailfast
At a minimum working in government for a short while allows you to understand
the challenges present in that political game if you must play it - this makes
you a more astute user of services and a better citizen because you know where
real root cause problems lie.

------
skc
I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone use Goldman as an
example of a "cool" company.

When did that happen?

~~~
gaius
Both Google and Goldman are “springboard” companies, 2-3 years at either and
you are basically guaranteed an interview anywhere you want, possibly for the
rest of your career. Cool might not be the right word, but there is a reason
why people clamour to get in, not just the money

~~~
ionforce
To whom does a stint at Goldman hold cachet?

~~~
alistairSH
Much of the finance industry in the US. Do a few years at Goldman (or any
other well-known employer on Wall St), get an MBA, and work wherever you want
for the next 30 years. I know quite a few who have followed this plan.

Every industry has companies like this. Apple and Google in software, PWC in
accounting, BoozAllen in consulting, etc.

~~~
gaius
Right. It may not be everyone’s cup of tea but a stint at Goldman would be
looked on favourably by any of the Fortune 500.

------
adrian_mrd
Short answer: no.

Long answer: no, with comments! This is because government is inherently risk-
averse and attracts many working types who are more attracted by stability,
consistency and a ‘safe’ job. Obviously governments are varied beasts and
there are some ‘funky’, innovative, exciting departments, although in my
experience they are very much exceptions.

Making and enforcing rules is safe territory - in terms of being somewhat of a
known state, working at exciting companies can be very much the opposite. But
as some commentators have stated, cool is very much an individual angle.

~~~
nashashmi
Further government is a place where loyalty trumps responsibility, ideas, and
passion for the measly end goal of climbing the ladder, securing your rank,
and succeeding when you shouldn't.

------
elgenie
The article doesn't mention "coolness" at all. All that's mentioned is on-
campus recruiting of graduating seniors at selective schools, which
Goldman/Google/McKinsey certainly work hard at. In terms of the universal
measure of coolness known as "tastiness of food provided at on-campus info
sessions", I recall those companies rating highly.

And Betteridge's Law of Headlines applies here.

------
jdietrich
Yes. We did it in the UK. The Government Digital Service is essentially a
startup within the government, providing services for other government
departments. Since 2011, a relatively small team have completely transformed
the government's online presence. Government services are now digital by
default and open by default; GDS maintains over 1,100 repos on GitHub.

It helps that tech salaries are generally lower in the UK, but it's mainly
about attitude. GDS enjoy a very high level of autonomy and are free to use
modern tools and methodologies. Working at GDS is legitimately cool.

[https://gds.blog.gov.uk/about/](https://gds.blog.gov.uk/about/)

[https://github.com/alphagov](https://github.com/alphagov)

------
lbriner
Government employs a massive number of people compared to Google. There simply
aren't that many amazing people to fill a government, even if a specific job
looked cool, the clever person would soon leave out of frustration that others
don't know what they're doing. At Google, even if you don't like the
management, they have (generally) proved their worth and ability.

If your cool jobs couldn't attract the clever people I assume the OP was
alluding to, then it isn't worth the hassle?

Governments also have to work with many outside agencies, suppliers and
consumers, I guess many more than people like Goldman do. Unless the whole
network is run well, frustration is crouching at the door.

------
Eridrus
Seems unlikely. There's no appetite to pay people as well as Google/Goldman.
Even much of HN isn't willing to accept how much Engineers get paid there.

But it doesn't need to be as cool as Google/Goldman, it just needs to be well
run.

------
aikinai
This sounds like one of those things that's impossible to replicate since it
so heavily depends on existing culture, but it's interesting to note that in
Japan government work is seen as quite cool and it's a top choice for many of
the most successful job seekers.

------
lbriner
A point that hasn't been made is that measuring success and value is generally
easy in a simple commercial company like Google. If you are a part of
something that makes $1B a year, you are probably worth your wages and all the
cool tech and offices you need.

Clearing snow or getting rid of garbage has no obvious financial value even
though it is necessary. So answering the question, should Sanitation be run by
a clever person on $200K per year or a normal person on $40K is harder.

~~~
alistairSH
There's a reasonable middle ground, no?

Should the manager of a city's sanitation department draw a Goldman/Google-
level salary? Perhaps not. But, the person is probably managing tens or
hundreds of employees, a fleet of vehicles, and depending on how the city is
organized, they're also managing some complex "industrial" facilities(water
treatment, etc).

I don't think a six-figure salary is unreasonable for that. Heck, given the
impact on my life if sanitation goes to shit, I'll happily pay my share of
taxes to support a salary that draws somebody who will get the job done.

Ditto for the leaders of many of the other city/county services.

------
delinka
_Can_ they? Sure. _Will_ they? Doubtful. The problem is slowness due to
bureaucracy. When you can't even _experiment_ on 'company' equipment without
formulating a plan and having it approved by a few levels of management, it
becomes a pain to advance not only your department/organization, but also to
advance your own knowledge.

------
amelius
Those companies are so big that they are just like the government, except they
have only one indicator of success which is financial.

------
lesss365
When NYC gov upgrades from Windows 2008, and a way too cumbersome and outdated
CMS for their sites, then we'll know they're taking the steps towards maybe
not "cool", but towards bearable systems/workflows to deal with, and as a
result making them more attractive as an employer

------
drngdds
Can they pay as much as Google and Goldman? No? Then no.

------
empath75
Not working for this administration. I just quit a DHS contract a few months
ago because I didn’t want to have anything to do with what they were doing.

~~~
billsmithaustin
I’m sorry your experience with the federal government was so bad. The article
was more focused on government at the local and state level.

------
code4tee
I think Goldman was seen as a “cool” place to work maybe like 12+ years ago
before the crash. Now, not so much.

------
bitL
Probably, but they have to wait until Google and Goldman deteriorate to the
Government jobs-level first.

------
typon
What kind of a square thinks working at Goldman is cool?

------
qaq
It seems government has not issues attracting Goldman talent even most senior
people :).

------
gaius
There absolutely are government jobs that are super-cool, Navy SEAL for
example. It’s not the inherent government-ness that makes these other jobs un-
cool, it’s something else

~~~
goldminer88
While being a Navy SEAL would be interesting or cool by any standard, its not
exactly a position with low barriers to entry.

The point of the article is questioning if its possible to have government
jobs that are attainable by the everyman.

~~~
mantas
Google software engineer does not have low barriers either. You've to train
pretty hard for either. And both jobs seem like magic for general population.

~~~
moccachino
What makes being a Navy SEAL cool is:

1) that they endured the training, unimaginably impressive

2) special forces military, always cool

The only special thing about a Google engineer is that they get paid well and
have a probably nice work environment. Which actually is nothing special.

Most people would admire a Navy SEAL, be glad that they do their job but never
ever want to be one, except for 5 minutes in their imagination. Almost no-one
admires a Google engineer but most people would probably want to be one or at
least have their working compensation/environment.

~~~
mantas
Yet both jobs have rather high barriers of entry and are not really
"attainable by the everyman".

------
captainbland
Probably not. At best they might make them kind of 'MAGA' edgy.

