

Ask HN: Downvoting - mrvc

After having a previous account banned following a "bad" comment on a single thread that led to about 10 downvotes because it went against the grain, I'd like to see if there's any consideration of removing downvoting from HN in order to encourage debate while keeping upvoting and flagging intact.<p>I ask because following that incident I will no longer be presenting dissenting views here, irrespective of perceived value.<p>What does HN think about removing downvoting?
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ColinWright
I would be interested in knowing how much of your description is deduction on
your part, and how much is received fact from definitive sources. I would be
interested in knowing how and why your comment was deemed "bad."

I don't know of any definitive cases where someone made a comment that was
appropriate, got vast numbers of down-votes, and then got banned because of
it. I know of many people who have complained about being banned, only to
discover that it wasn't the case.

I do know of many people who present dissenting views, but present them
carefully and constructively, and who do not attract down-votes because of
their comments. They work hard to get people to think first, and not to react
with a jerk of the knee (so to speak). It is possible. I've seen it. It's not
easy, and I suspect not everyone can do it.

In short, it's unclear that your beliefs about the situation are accurate -
there are many ways to get these things wrong. I'm not saying you are wrong,
I'm just saying that your view about down-votes may not be accurate.

And no, I don't think down-votes should be removed, although I frequently
don't understand how they are being used.

~~~
steventruong
I'll give you one example. Recently, someone posted a link to the new update
for Python 2.7.2. At the time, on the python website itself, it stated that
this was not a production release and specifically said something along the
lines of upgrade at your own risk (I quoted it word for word from the site).

I then made a personal statement saying "I guess I won't be upgrading". I felt
that it may help those who didn't scan the page and may miss the quote. And
the specific comment I made was one about me, that affects only me reflecting
the statement I quoted off the python site. I started getting downvotes for no
apparent reason (at least none that I could see reasonably). To avoid it, I
just deleted the comment.

If others felt like they didn't care, they were more than welcome to download
2.7.2. I never said anything about why people shouldn't have downloaded it.
All I wrote was literally what I just said above.

For the record, it now looks like the site has been updated to reflect that it
is a full production release.

~~~
ColinWright
Here's one way to think about it, based purely on what you've said. I didn't
see your comment, so I don't know for sure:

Did you say anything unobvious? You quoted from the site that they declared it
not to be a production release, and you said "OK - not for me." (I paraphrase)

We can easily deduce that, as it's not a production release, then not everyone
will want it. Fine. What did your comment really add? It was a personal,
conversational, largely content-free, throw-away observation.

This isn't a criticism, I'm merely trying to present a way of thinking that
makes it less unreasonable for people to have down-voted a comment.

HN was always intended to be unlike other sites, strongly encouraging meaty
content, strongly discouraging light and fluffy comments and submissions. It's
been drifting away from that, so people are starting to feel that there's more
space for conversational-like comments. There is something of a back-lash from
some of the older hands who remember what it was like. Or what they think they
remember it was like. More content, less conversation. Discussion, not throw-
away remarks.

~~~
steventruong
I can see what you mean and I do understand that vantage point of view.
However, I think downvoting something just because it doesn't necessarily add
obvious value (which is relative) to the conversation is a mistake. Maybe it's
just me but I would think it would make people more hesitant to speak freely
just because others may perceive no value from it and getting downvoted as a
result. It's very different than downvoting something because it's wrong (like
2+2 is not 5) or because the behavior was unacceptable.

~~~
mentat
As the grandparent says, this is a purposeful decision in this community.
There's a goal of encouraging useful conversation, not just conversation. I do
a lot less posting than I might otherwise and I make sure my comments have
content before posting them. This hesitation helps ensure that I'm providing
value, not just rambling opinion. Having an online community built around
presenting value really is a feature, not a bug.

------
Animus7
People don't downvote dissenting views. They downvote comments that lack value
to the discussion.

~~~
ColinWright
That was once the case, but I think it's no longer true. Of late I've seen
relevant and constructive comments down-voted, and I've been able to discern
no reason other than the view expressed was an unpopular one.

If there's a mechanism to indicate a comment is inappropriate, people will use
it to indicate disapproval.

If there's no mechanism to indicate a comment is inappropriate, inappropriate
and off-topic will abound.

Removing down-votes might help, but I doubt it.

~~~
jinushaun
Time and time again, Slashdot's voting system shows that it's superior to
these simple up/down voting systems. Not all up votes are equal, nor are all
down votes simply because you disagree with the content.

~~~
ColinWright
I, and I'm sure many others here also, am unfamiliar with SlashDot's system.
Could you point to a summary? Perhaps simply edit your comment to include one.

Thanks.

~~~
thomasz
"Randomly selected moderators assign points of either −1 or +1 to each
comment, based on whether the comment is perceived as either normal, offtopic,
insightful, redundant, interesting, or troll (among others)."(Wikipedia)

Interesting approach...

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codabrink
People on HN are way too keen to downvoting. Down votes should be used to
filter out bad/thoughtless comments, not viewpoints that don't necessarily
agree with yours. I've seen a lot of valuable input grayed out on this site.

~~~
steventruong
I agree except bad/thoughtless can be subjective.

~~~
mentat
What's wrong with people making subjective judgments about the work of others
in a community they share? You have to have a certain level of karma to down
vote, which means (theoretically) you have to have done things that created
sufficient value for at least some people and hopefully learned about what the
existing group values.

~~~
steventruong
Getting total karma count isn't difficult. People whose been around long
enough will eventually accummulate the number needed if they interact in any
way at all

------
cageface
I'd like to see it disappear, personally. The really bad comments tend to sink
to the bottom of the page anyway and increasingly downvoting is being used
capriciously and vindictively to ding opinions people just don't happen to
agree with.

~~~
steventruong
I agree with this. It irks me a bit that people would downvote simply because
they have a different view. Sometimes completely unwarranted when the view or
opinion does not affect the outcome of the thread or conversation.

I would rather have downvoting removed completely as well.

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maresca
Downvoting is used often for dissenting views nowadays. Personally, I don't
care that much if my comments are downvoted. This is just another forum on the
internet. I'd rather voice my opinion and get downvoted than not voice my
opinion at all.

That being said, I'd like to see the downvoting be removed.

Go ahead and downvote my comment.

~~~
ColinWright
From <http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

    
    
        In Comments
    
        ...
    
        Please don't bait other users by inviting them
        to downmod you.

~~~
maresca
Irony is dead.

~~~
ColinWright
Did you not perceive the irony in my comment? I guess it was more post-ironic
or meta-irony - bit tricky to detect.

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hammock
_I ask because following that incident I will no longer be presenting
dissenting views here, irrespective of perceived value._

Having a positive points value is more important to you than interesting
debate? Boy do you have your priorities backwards. Don't let a downvote stop
you from posting your ideas, that's ridiculous.

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ryall
How about a limited amount of down-votes allocated to each member to dish out?
Possibly tiered based on karma level? Perhaps a member that down-votes a
comment loses karma if the comment is then up-voted by other members (ie
deemed an unfair down-vote by others)?

~~~
peterhi
The only problem here is that you are assuming only one point of view is
correct. So if I down vote you because I believe what you are saying is wrong
but a lot of supporters of your view up vote then I will be punished for
having a discenting (or at least less popular) view.

Is this what you had in mind?

~~~
jonafato
Therein lies the the problem though. It seems to be the general consensus that
people _should_ down vote only for unhelpful / irrelevant / factually
incorrect comments, however voting _is_ used to show agreement / disagreement.
Before voting, I usually ask myself why I'm doing this. If it's to promote an
opinion, I leave it alone.

~~~
ryall
Exactly. Down-voting is not to show disagreement, it's to cull comments that
don't contribute to the discussion. What I'm proposing would hopefully make
people question their motives before down-voting.

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nsomaru
Perhaps it's also about _how_ you present a view. Using words such as
"perhaps" and "consider" allow people to more easily receive the thought that
you are attempting to convey.

------
Mz
_I ask because following that incident I will no longer be presenting
dissenting views here, irrespective of perceived value._

Presenting a dissenting opinion is an art form. It takes practice. I do a lot
of it. I never really fit in anywhere I go. An awful lot of my views do not
fit into whatever the 'typical' assumptions are on a topic and this means that
no matter what I say, both sides often wind up kicking the crap out of me.

Some tips, should you decide you would like to try again:

Don't be argumentative about it. Present your views as a standing-on-your-own-
two-feet position, not a shooting-down-the-opposition thing.

Show some respect -- agree to disagree, make no attempt to "win people over",
much less "win".

Stick to the issues. When you dissent, inevitably there will be enormous
social pressure swirling around your lack of going along to get along. Anyone
who speaks to you will likely try to put all kinds of crap on you about what
they think you are saying. Politely clarify, as many times as it takes.

Judge the timing and context carefully. There is a time and place to offer an
alternate point of view. There are other times and places where it's so not
worth it.

Word your dissent very carefully. If your goal is to get people to really
think and not just punch buttons, like it or not, the burden is on the
minority voice to make an effort to communicate effectively. If you are going
along with the majority opinion, you can express yourself sloppily and people
won't care. But when stating a minority opinion, you must be extra careful to
work at communicating effectively and intentionally avoid punching people's
buttons so as to have some hope of actually being heard.

------
fogus
Am I missing something? Isn't one way to fix downvoting to make them
subtractive for both parties?

~~~
ColinWright
Then if something is on-topic but content-free, why would I bother to flag it?
How do I get rewarded for doing the right thing? Why should I not just leave
it to someone else?

The idea is to reward correct behavior, whereas your suggestion punishes it.

~~~
fogus
Yeah, you're probably right. I was hoping for the simple solution, but came up
short. I can say that I personally wouldn't mind sacrificing my own karma to
downvote someone who really deserves it.

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plasma
How do you even downvote, do you need a certain level of karma?

~~~
JoachimSchipper
Yes, you need some amount of karma. This was 200 at one point, but I seem to
recall that it's ~500 now.

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NoItAll
In the grand scheme of things, why on Earth do you care if an account was
down-voted?

Personally, I see this as a bad sign that people in general are very immature
and do not have an adult grasp on reality. People who care about getting
'down-voted' frighten me.

Comment trolled perhaps? It's hard to say. ColinWright: are you really this
bored with life?

I like to contribute, but really.. I don't care what people thing of my
comments, they are just comments on a random website.

~~~
rcfox
This comment would be more persuasive if it weren't coming from a newly-
created account.

