
Why forgiving someone else is about you - pseudolus
https://www.npr.org/2020/07/28/896245305/why-forgiving-someone-else-is-really-about-you
======
Osiris
My therapist has recently recommend "The Grief Recovery Handbook"[1] to me to
deal with a breech of trust in my life. I never thought of that as "grief" but
as we went through it, it's really put a new perspective on things.

The book also talks about the importance of forgiveness and explains it this
way:

"Since you cannot go back in time to change the past, forgiveness is about
giving up the hope of a different or better yesterday. It relates to forgiving
actions that were taken, that gave you the feelings of loss of control over
your happiness. It’s about acknowledging those things that another did or said
that caused pain and making the decision that you are not going to let that
hurt or control you anymore.

Forgiveness can be very empowering. It can give you the chance to be free of
another person’s emotional control. It has nothing to do with the other
person. As was said before, it is something that is for you and you alone."

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Grief-Recovery-Handbook-
Anniversary-E...](https://www.amazon.com/Grief-Recovery-Handbook-Anniversary-
Expanded/dp/0061686077)

~~~
barrkel
I personally frame it as taking responsibility for your feelings - recognizing
that you have in large measure conscious choice over the way you feel and can
will it differently - and I think of it in opposition to what I perceive as a
modern vogue for playing the victim, or worse, stacking up victimhood cards
like they are spell multipliers and using them in a social competition to
prove how much bigger of a victim you are than other people. But victimhood,
as I see it, surrenders your well-being to forces external to you.

That all sounds pretty political, but everything social turns political above
a certain scale.

Forgiveness is underrated, for sure. Take control over your self.

~~~
throwanem
This sounds like a recipe for redirecting the grudge toward some other
external target, instead of letting it go. Not to say you shouldn't do what
works for you, as long as you don't hurt anyone else in the doing of it - but
to find it as you've put it here gives it the sense of general advice and
recommendation, and in that sense it seems very much wanting.

~~~
nitrogen
_This sounds like a recipe for redirecting the grudge toward some other
external target_

I think that's antithetical to the term forgiveness, so I suspect that's not
intended by the parent comment(s). In fact, the exact opposite is how I read
their comment, that is that you take your grudges toward external targets and
let them go.

~~~
throwanem
I don't know. Framing it in terms of opposition to a perceived political trend
doesn't read that way to me, and my own relevant experience includes nothing
to suggest that framing forgiveness in any way related to any kind of
political _anything_ would be a useful way of dealing with the ramifications
of past emotional trauma.

Perhaps the original commenter will come along and clarify.

~~~
barrkel
I'm not trying to frame it as oppositional to a political trend, but rather
that it's unfashionable an angle to take, to not take up the mantle of
victimhood. I was commenting on the relative location of my position because
I'm aware of its unfashionability as I write.

If anything, I was being peremptorily defensive, not redirecting to some other
external target.

~~~
throwanem
That's fair, but I'm still very unclear on how the one relates to the other.

How is this idea, "to not take up the mantle of victimhood," meant to be
useful in, for example, forgiving my grandfather for what he did that one
afternoon when I was still a small boy, and everyone else was out on a day
trip somewhere? - that one afternoon much of which I'm totally unable to
remember, but still, thirty years on, makes me queasy to think about.

To be sure, what happened that afternoon is between me and my grandfather and
not likely ever to be reconciled in detail, especially seeing how he died a
couple of decades ago. But the facts of the situation are fairly obvious,
especially since I'm not the only one in my family with a story like that. So
I think it makes a pretty good worked example, or the basis for one at least.

If nothing else, I can attest that dealing with the emotional ramifications of
having an afternoon like that in one's past is a long process - I've been
working at it for some years now, and even that's just since I realized I
needed to start trying. So what I'm asking is, what is "not [taking] up the
mantle of victimhood" meant to have to do with a process like that? In what
way is it meant to make that easier, or even make that possible?

I mean, this is a fair question, right? Maybe I've misunderstood somewhere,
but as far as I can tell you've framed it as a general prescription, so it
seems reasonable to think it should be applicable here. But I have to admit
that I'm not seeing how.

~~~
barrkel
Not forgiving someone means holding on to a grievance and adopting the
identity of a victim. That's mostly what I mean. But there's more.

There's an emotional comfort that lies in wallowing in grievance, and a
variety of social rewards from sharing it with others - attention,
commiseration, and a kind of cathartic semi-religious feeling of confession
from the recital, which takes on the form of a kind of ritual if you've done
it enough times; you need to set it up right so that the payoff delivers.

Of course I don't mean to deny your lived experience, and when I say "you"
above, I don't mean you specifically. I'm simply aware, and wary of, the
psychological traps that lie down similar roads. I especially don't want to
let people who've hurt me in the past to get to define my identity or mental
or emotional state; or I simply become a fragment of a mirror of their life,
and not my own.

------
ta1234567890
"Hating someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die"

Recently I realized I was poisoning myself with intense negative thoughts and
feelings about someone. Then I also noticed those thoughts feelings were only
impacting me, not the other person at all. Finally I decided to forgive that
person for what they had done to me, and when I started that process it became
evident that in order to accomplish it, I actually needed to forgive myself. I
had to forgive myself for judging, for holding a grudge and for hating.

Then I wrote down a list of all the people that I felt even a little bit
negative about. At first I thought it was going to be a short list, but it
ended up including over a hundred people. So I discovered that hiding subtly
in my mind and within my feelings, I was secretly holding
anger/hate/negativity for a lot of people.

After putting together the list, I started wishing love and wellbeing to
everyone in it, individually, one by one. Kind of like going through my body
and taking care of every little wound or cut I could find.

I tried going through the list and having positive feelings about those people
every day for a few weeks. It did wonders for me.

~~~
yarrel
"Forgiving someone who hasn't changed is like encouraging a poisoner."

~~~
Godel_unicode
This quote comes from a relatively juvenile definition of forgiveness, namely
forgive and forget. I can forgive someone for violating my trust without
giving them the same trusted position they used to have.

------
scottious
As somebody who's struggling to forgive somebody who's wronged me, I find this
article to be a bit wishy-washy, like this:

> Reexamine your perceptions of life events that have trapped you in the role
> of victim.

well, what if somebody really truly was a victim? What if one's parents have
condescended and belittled them for decades? What if one's mother is abusive
and drinks too much? What if somebody spent their entire childhood planning
their escape from their parents (successfully!)

That kind of stuff doesn't just go away. Is it even possible to forgive
somebody who honestly doesn't think they've done anything wrong?

~~~
OneGuy123
You caught yourself in a trap (similar to which I also did).

Yes, your parents were assholes. What has to be realized is that yes: your
parents were assholes and this probably did had a (severly) negative effect in
your PRACTICAL life.

But what must be understood is that what is done is done. This doesn't meat
that you say "my parents are ok". This means that you, on a deep level,
realize that your parents have issues, and that those issues caused them to
act out. In other words: they didn't knew any better.

The side effect of their issues was that your life was misarable, so you moved
away from them.

What has to be understood is that yes, you indeed were at a disadvantage. But
now that you moved away it's only up to you what you make of this. You don't
have to visit them or call them.

What is meant by "forgiveness" is that you have to realize that "yes, your
parents have issues and there is nothing that can be done about it. But now
I'm free of them, so from now on it's up to me".

Forgiveness also means that you don't actively hate on your parents: ironicaly
hating your parents will NOT hurt them: you will only hurt yourself by hating
on them because you yourself will create self-conflit & rage & hate withing
YOURLSEF.

So it's more of a "what happened happened, I'm free of them now so from now on
it's up to me" \+ the realization that actively hating on them will only hurt
you, not them!

~~~
scottious
Recently mother showed up unannounced at my house in tears and SCREAMED at my
wife and I for HOURS and wouldn't leave. It was an absolute ambush. The
reason? She wanted to get together earlier in the day but we had an
appointment so we had to postpone it to later in the day. yes, that's all it
takes.

Our son was TEN DAYS OLD at the time. That was 18 months ago.

Since then she's been the nastiest, most unpleasant person to be around and my
father is condescending as hell and still tries to boss me around at 35 years
old.

This doesn't really feel like a "the past is the past, people have flaws".
This more feels like an assault on my day-to-day life.

It has been like this since I was a kid and I see not even the slightest bit
of progress or self-reflection. When do I just call it quits?

~~~
OneGuy123
Get yourself a restraining order.

And no, this is not an exageration.

Threaten her that she will never she her grandchildren again.

It's not your responsibility to try and help your mother.

The need/willingness for change has to come from her. If she won't even
consider that it might be her fault and not yours she is a loss cause.

Until she realize this she is a lost cause and you are doing yourself a
disfavor by guilt-tripping over her letting her upset your life.

~~~
mucholove
Don’t threaten them if you don’t mean do it.

Really. A baseless threat will put your mother in the role of the victim—and
the power of the victim role will let her throw more abuse on you. She will
feel entitled to say nasty things.

Getting the restraining order or some similar action that cuts her off is what
will free you from the role of the victim. From this place you can take pity
on her. You have taken action to eliminate the oppressor. Maybe more will be
needed. If you are ever so frustrated as to feel helpless about doing that
“more which might be needed” then you are back at victim.

Good luck!

PPS — look up the drama triangle and the corresponding empowerment triangle.
Might be useful ;)

------
paulsutter
In which we learn that forgiveness is a suitcase word (prone to useless debate
as each party uses a different definition)

[https://alexvermeer.com/unpacking-suitcase-
words/](https://alexvermeer.com/unpacking-suitcase-words/)

~~~
coldtea
Aren't those the only words that matter?

Anything else, that everybody is clear and agrees on, might as well not be
discussed at all...

~~~
waterhouse
If definitions are clear and everyone agrees on them, then discussion can be
about whether those definitions apply. Discussion is then about the real
world. The definition of murder is pretty clear and widely agreed on; there is
plenty of room for discussion about whether it was Smith or Jones who
committed it.

If definitions are unclear or people disagree on them, then discussion may
either be about the definitions and not about the real world, or be
incoherent.

------
tunesmith
Corollary: Never tell anyone else you forgive them unless they ask for it.
Otherwise it's just some sort of passive-aggressive way of telling someone
they've wronged you and that you're the better person. If forgiving someone is
for you and they're not asking for it, you can keep it to yourself.

------
hawk_
While law doesn't have place for revenge in a civilised society and rightly
so, the need for revenge/retribution I suspect is quite innate. It's healthy
to try to forgive but it's quite difficult, almost like you can't fool
yourselves into thinking you aren't hungry.

~~~
hnarayanan
Do you honestly believe revenge helps you?

~~~
scottious
If you take the high road while they consistently take the low road long
enough, eventually you'll feel like a complete push over who lacks self-
respect.

I personally have reached a breaking point in which I realize that if I don't
do something different, then the people who've abused me will continue abusing
me while all while I take the high road and try to be the better person.

I wouldn't call it revenge, because that sounds malicious. Let's call it tit-
for-tat or "taking my ball and going home". If you repeatedly abuse me, you're
out of my life. Call it revenge or call it whatever you want, but I'm simply
not going to stand for it.

~~~
TeaDrunk
I don’t think that is not taking the high road. When facing abuse, taking the
high road is indeed not responding to the abuse with anything more than a
firm, non malicious, self protecting establishment and enforcement of your
personal boundaries.

Refusing to respond at all and allowing abuse to continue can be construed as
taking the high road but it isn’t the only way to healthily manage toxic
people.

(Revenge imo is when one actively moves to harm an abusive person.)

~~~
watwut
> Refusing to respond at all and allowing abuse to continue can be construed
> as taking the high road but it isn’t the only way to healthily manage toxic
> people.

In my experience, this is what people usually expect when they talk about
"taking the high road" or "being the bigger person". It has zero to do with
"healthily managing toxic people" and everything to do with comfort of whoever
does not want to deal with conflict at your expense.

I had to unlearn these quite late, when I finally figured this out.

------
DoreenMichele
It makes some decent points, especially with regards to "forgiveness isn't
necessarily about reconciling" and addresses other general misinformation
about the idea.

What I always say is "Forgiveness is a gift. Trust is earned."

I think people hang onto a lot of negativity precisely because we so often
hear garbage like "Forgive and forget" and "let bygones by bygones" which are
phrases explicitly used by abusive people to indicate _you are the asshole_ if
you use their track record of bad behavior to be skeptical of their latest
empty promises. Such ideas get used to facilitate abusive behavior and tell
you that the only way you can be a good and decent person is to set aside
common sense and actively cooperate with their plans to victimize you again.

"Forgiveness is a gift. Trust is earned." helps make the distinction between
the two things. It can say "I may no longer be mad and projecting a lot of
negativity at you, but you haven't fixed anything at all from your end, so,
no. Don't assume that means I will be a chump and fall for your garbage."

AKA: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

It's okay to say "I was burned by this person. There is zero evidence that
they have changed and I will not trust them again." while also saying to
yourself "I am sick to death of wallowing in my misery. I would like to leave
this emotional pain behind and focus on other things. I would like to stop and
smell the roses and be present in the here and now and enjoy today, regardless
of what shitty things some asshole did to me in the past."

TLDR: Sometimes, clinging to old pain is a means to shield yourself from new
harm. Realizing that can help empower you to protect yourself without
wallowing in misery.

------
throwaway_234
My former best friend of 30 years turned into a greedy, vengeful, ego-driven
criminal and after 15 years of keeping me away from his gambling (addiction)
world (friends) he got me involved.

I am not an innocent party as I agreed to do something that I knew was wrong
and stupid. Even kept saying such to him and everyone while we did such. When
the stuff hit the fan he threw me under the bus to save himself from the cops.
We tried to patch things up a few months later by continuing to run our
outdoor recreation business, but the only day we were in business that season
he stole portions of the profit.

When this all happened I was harsh and judged him.. saying i didnt even know
him anymore and he's turned into a criminal. Thus, he won't ever speak with me
again as I judged him (lol). The guy started doing some illegal scary stuff
and as a friend I was pointing out he's going in the wrong and a very bad
direction. Doesn't matter we will never speak again and I know the only way we
will is for me to forgive him and reach out. But no he's become a criminal and
ego/being revengeful/greed/being right yet he's so wrong is more important
then 3 decades of friendship.

People change... him changing and the loss of our friendship hasnt been easy.

~~~
inostia
Excuse the cultural reference, but the outdoor recreation thing makes me think
of a plot line from The Sopranos where an addicted gambler gets "busted out"
by the mafia and ends up being force to do illegal things because of his
debts.

Maybe it was the gambling addiction that lead your friend to doing illegal
activities? Addictions like that can cause people to go out of control, it's a
compulsion and a very sad one.

~~~
throwaway_234
Yes and so am I supposed to give him a pass? He's going to keep going in the
wrong direction until his addiction and it's action lands him in jail or
something bad to teach him a lesson. Not sure I can teach him that lesson
myself minus cutting him out of my life and all my family's life (he grew up
around my family).

Also, when you put out he's doing wrong and going in a horrible direction he
says i am horrible for judging him. He already almost got thrown in jail once,
yet didnt get time. Maybe time in jail is what he needs to wake himself up
from his addiction. Unfortunately, both his parents died early due to drug
addiction.

Hard to forgive and reach out when all i can see is he will do the same until
he works on quitting his addiction.

What would others do?

 __*im here in the mid-Atlantic area of the US. Didnt watch the Sopranos that
much, but on a different note running that business with him was the best job
I ever had. Customers loved what we offered and not only paid us but would
write reviews on Facebook without asking. As well I was selling a service I
loved and working with friends outside. It could definitely could have become
a 100k summer business and more, but he ran the business like a Soprano and I
ran it like Walt Disney. The latter is still blossoming decades later ... mob
bosses not so much.

------
dkarl
Forgiveness as discussed here is an internal emotional matter and easy to make
a case for. Forgiveness becomes a public and contentious issue when the
injured party is under pressure to once more trust the offender, to do
business with them, to "let them back into their lives," etc. That's what the
arguments are about, and that's when this idea of forgiveness gets perverted
into "gee, you must be suffering spiritually under all that hatred and
resentment towards Bob, why don't you let it go and let Bob borrow your car
for his bachelor party road trip."

------
tombert
As a rule if I feel someone makes an honest apology, I will almost always
forgive them, at least if they did something to me (and I try really hard to
apply the reverse and apologize sincerely if I think there's even a chance of
something being my fault).

What I've found is that I'm far less-willing or able to forgive people for
doing things to hurt people that _aren 't_ me. For example, I haven't talked
to my grandmother in almost 4 years because she said some really racist stuff
that would get this post flagged if I repeated it. Do these comments hurt _me_
, a yuppie white dude who's biggest problem is being bored from working at
home? No, not really, but it's not just about me, and I feel like
"forgiveness" would be insulting to the people who it does hurt.

I'll admit this might be a character flaw on my end, but I also don't see
myself changing on that.

------
orwin
I think revenge and forgiveness are big words with a lot of different
meanings.

Someone close to me was raped a few years back. No witnesses (yeah, he was her
boss and asked her to stay a bit longer), so the perpetrator could walk of
free of worries.

It was enraging, but we simply learned not to care. What's done is done. Is
this forgiveness?

However everyone i talk to in the city where it happened know that the
particular restaurant is owned by a rapist, and i've said multiple time, to
multiple people, to always ask the nearest formation center to know if they
forbid/discourage female cook to apprentice in some restaurants, and if they
do, which ones. It's not really revenge, it is just not supporting rapists.

------
jerkstate
One of the most important aspects of forgiveness is a credible apology. We all
know people who can't or won't apologize for their transgressions, or heard
apologies that don't address the core issues of the transgression. When you
hear a small child apologize, it's reflexive, like they hope to use it as a
shield for any retribution or punishment. The true purpose of an apology is to
convey contrition and growth from the aggrieving party to the aggrieved, which
are both important to the ability to forgive any given transgression. A large
part of this forgiveness article is about expressing yourself - perhaps to the
aggrieving party - perhaps in order to achieve a satisfactory apology. In that
way, an apology is like a confession of sin prayer. If you don't mean it, the
person upstairs can tell and you won't be forgiven. Maybe this is one function
of religion - helping us develop the important life skills of apology and
forgiveness.

~~~
ogurechny
This is a complete misunderstanding, in my opinion. It is not an accounting of
receipts and expenditures, not some “game theory” example, not an investment
onto “the betterment of a society”, etc. You don't need anything to forgive,
to do the right thing, it is always in your power. It might be hard, but it
has always been like that.

~~~
jerkstate
Well like elsewhere in the thread, people have mentioned that forgiveness is a
complicated word. You should definitely learn to "let it go" regardless of
whether you've received any apology, in terms of not letting it affect your
psyche negatively, but in terms of future interactions with someone who
wronged you and can't show contrition or growth, you have no obligation to put
yourself into a position where they can do the same thing to you again. Hence,
not a full forgiveness because your interactions with them are altered.

~~~
ogurechny
“Letting it go to feel better”, in my opinion, is also an accounting, some
self-objectifying robot maintenance. It is strange that people find it hard to
imagine how to forgive without receiving anything back.

For one thing, I seriously doubt I'm in position to judge “growth” of other
people.

~~~
jerkstate
I’m just not sure why I would continue to interact with someone who treated me
badly without remorse. You might call it accounting or game theory, I call it
self-preservation.

------
jwieczorek
It's interesting to see modern-day “certified forgiveness coachers” transmit
the millenia-old Christian teaching on sin, resentment and forgiveness.

~~~
Barrin92
was about to remark the same thing. Seeing an article like this in what is
allegedly a Christian culture is a little bit funny.

Do we really need to teach people that forgiveness, properly understood, is an
act of virtue rather than some sort of bargain?

------
RomanPushkin
In Orthodox Christianity they have "Forgiving Sunday" every year. Many people
(in Russia, for example) ask for forgiveness once a year, and everyone
forgives. Like for real, it's happening to folks of all ages, including
progressive folks of 20-30 age.

------
slothtrop
It's an old virtue that's thought to be good for society, which I imagine is
why it's proselytized. But refraining from offering forgiveness need not be a
burden. There are people I will never forgive, nor bother to think about. It's
not a matter of carrying hatred, it's just a judgment. Forgiveness is an
absolution that returns people into good graces: I don't see why, in a blanket
sense, everyone who's done exceptional harm should return to everyone's good
graces. Petty slights can be more easily forgiven, as everyone will eventually
cause offense and consider it a mistake.

------
higeorge13
There are so many articles on forgiving, letting go and so on, but so little
on encouraging people to retrospect their lives and wrongs and give sincere
apologies. World would be a little bit better if people were encouraged to
talk their differences or mistakes, to give closure, or give an apology, even
if it took months or years for them to understand. Moving on is the easy part;
reaching out the one you did wrong and asking forgiveness needs tons of
courage and mental strength.

------
keiferski
For a serious academic take on the topic, I recommend the Stanford
Encyclopedia of Philosophy's articles on _Forgiveness_ and _Reconciliation._

[https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/forgiveness/](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/forgiveness/)

[https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/reconciliation/](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/reconciliation/)

------
jonstaab
There's some truth to this, but this therapeutic reduction does a disservice
to the traditional (and fuller) practice of forgiveness:

> In the new therapeutic dispensation, however, forgiveness is all about the
> forgiver, and his or her power and well-being. We have come a long way from
> Shakespeare’s Portia, who spoke so memorably in The Merchant of Venice about
> the unstrained “quality of mercy,” which “droppeth as the gentle rain from
> heaven” and blesses both “him that gives and him that takes.” And an even
> longer way from Christ’s anguished cry from the cross, “Forgive them, for
> they know not what they do.” And perhaps even further yet from the most
> basic sense of forgiveness, the canceling of a monetary debt or the
> pardoning of a criminal offense, in either case a very conscious suspension
> of the entirely rightful demands of justice.

From: [https://hedgehogreview.com/issues/the-post-modern-
self/artic...](https://hedgehogreview.com/issues/the-post-modern-
self/articles/the-strange-persistence-of-guilt), which I highly recommend
reading, as it's super relevant not only to our personal lives, but to the
cultural moment we find ourselves in.

~~~
jkingsbery
I agree. From a high-minded perspective, "Forgiveness has a PR problem" only
if one is talking about a group that ignores the canon of religious teachers
and what they've said about the importance of forgiveness and mercy, and what
that actually means.

From a more basic approach, I don't know what playground Holub was on as a kid
leading her to say "we're taught what we'll call "traditional" forgiveness
when we're 4 or 5 years old," but I was taught based on Mr. Rogers (and my
daughters were taught based on Daniel Tiger), that forgiveness still requires
consequences. (See: "Saying sorry is the first step, then how can I help":
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oICZVpmtL4c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oICZVpmtL4c)).

------
watwut
I really have issue with the whole often repeated "If something was done to
you that actually makes you victim of x, there is something wrong with you.
You must not be victim, even when you was victim" thing. Its consequences is
"I did not wanted to complain because that would make me victim" which is no
good result.

I don't like the part where you have to make yourself responsible for it
either.

~~~
GavinMcG
You've got to make yourself responsible for your emotional reality, because
you're the only one who can consistently influence it. Or at least, it's up to
you whether you allow others to influence it.

No one denies that people really are victimized. But whether they let that
victim vs. perpetrator mindset play out in their other relationships and lived
experiences is (with time and practice) up to them.

~~~
watwut
I do not know what "victim mindset" is supposed to be. Victim is descriptor -
something negative was done to you. You don't become victim by looking at
things certain way. Nor you do stop being one. If you was robbed, you are
robbery victim regardless of what your mindset is.

Most of this is about denying that you might be victim of something either to
yourself or to others.

Plus, people actually really do deny that. If you read this article in full,
majority of examples are about trying to figure out whether you don't
misremember or misrepresent what happened.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
In many scenarios you do become a victim by looking at things a certain way.
Suppose I get in a nasty fight with a close friend, where she yells at me and
calls me all sorts of nasty names and shoves me a bit before running away.
There are two different ways I could process that:

* That conversation really spiraled out of control. We should get together, understand what went wrong, and make up.

* I'm an abuse victim! She emotionally abused me and then lightly physically abused me. She'd better apologize for the trauma she put me through.

The first attitude is especially important when I might be misremembering how
things went or forgetting about what I was yelling back. But even if I'm 100%
confident that my summary is fair and accurate, I don't think the second
strategy is healthy, and I'd call the idea that I should embrace it "victim
mindset".

~~~
watwut
The difference between the two options is not just subjective. There is real
world difference between misunderstanding and abuse.

The big issue with calling 2 unhealthy mindset is that if you are actually in
'toxic' situation, it prevents you to find solution. This is one of things
that makes people stay in abusive relationships. It prevents you to set
boundaries, leave or cut people that needs to be cut. "It is just passion
spiraling out of control" is real world way how people rationalize staying in
abusive relationships. And then everyone is like "why did you not left", well
because he/she did not wanted to be victim with unhealthy mindset.

And part of healing is to learn to recognize the situation for what it is and
learning to leave.

This is exactly one of my reasons why I object. Because even if you are
dealing with narcissist or someone who has abusive habits, you will insist on
fault being in the middle, making up, reconciling, enabling.

Also, even in case of conversation spiraling out of control, it should not
mean that I have to bend over to make up nor have to have boundaries pushed a
bit again and and again each time it spirals. Sometimes, when conversations
spiral out of control due to one person lacking self control, it is perfectly
ok to NOT make up and decide that I don't have to deal with this.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
I just don't agree with the implied dichotomy here, between good people who
always treat others well (although they might have misunderstandings) and
narcissists with abusive habits. Most people fall in the middle, where they're
a bit of a jerk in their own idiosyncratic situations. If you get in a habit
of sorting all bad behavior between "misunderstanding" and "abuse", you'll
inevitably end up calling a lot of normal behavior abuse and a lot of okay
people abusers.

~~~
watwut
I can fully agree with that.

But that does not make abusive situation matter of victims mindset, it is
still matter of acts of the one who is doing it.

And when non narcissist acts abusive or have such habits, the very same person
acting differently with different people makes no difference. You still have
to solve the abusive situation you are in, nit the mutual misunderstanding nor
things "spiralling out of control of no one's fault".

------
ta1234567890
A bit off topic but related, saying sorry means different things and it's used
differently in different cultures[1].

In the US in particular, apologizing usually implies taking the guilt or
responsibility (and sometimes even liability) for what happened.
Unfortunately, this creates a huge incentive to not apologize, which then
easily turns into bad feelings, grudges, anger and sometimes even lawsuits.

Interestingly, in the case of malpractice, apologizing reduces the chances a
patient will file a lawsuit[2]. I wonder how many fewer lawsuits we would
have, and how much healthier of a society we would be if we all apologized
more.

[1] [https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/12004-apologies-around-
the...](https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/12004-apologies-around-the-
world.html)

[2] [https://www.natlawreview.com/article/you-had-me-i-m-sorry-
im...](https://www.natlawreview.com/article/you-had-me-i-m-sorry-impact-
physicians-apologies-medical-malpractice-litigation)

------
isoskeles
> Contrary to popular opinion, the practice of forgiveness is not about
> condoning or making excuses for unfair treatment and other hurtful
> behaviors. It's not about getting an apology or a show of remorse from the
> offending party.

I'm not sure it's popular opinion to receive some sort of apology or show of
remorse. What are other perspectives on this? My view has been that
forgiveness is independent of an apology. An apology might lead to forgiveness
for some, but shouldn't be expected nor is it a requirement.

As an aside, it also seems forgiveness has fallen out of favor as a public
virtue, if not in popular opinion, then in practice. When someone makes a
public mistake, many people want to make it as difficult as possible to move
on, a vindictiveness that is the polar opposite of forgiveness. Or I'm
mistaken, and the change is that everything is more public now.

Also, hope everyone had a laugh at "certified forgiveness coach."

~~~
kayodelycaon
For an example:

It’s very common for victims of rape to be told to forgive the family member
who raped them and not “cause drama” in the family.

------
viburnum
The forgiveness instructions in the article are very detailed and tie together
many current popular ideas. Some people really like complicated systems, so
maybe having so much to do helps them by crowding out the bad feelings that
cause suffering. Another approach is to decide that being the judge is no
longer your job, and to simply stop caring. It can be hard because caring
about the injustice to done to you often reflects your best values: kindness,
fairness, compassion. To turn off the judge in your brain can feel like you’re
abandoning your values. But forgiveness is actually work, and you have to ask
yourself if it’s one of those jobs that don’t really need to be done. So the
trick is separate your values from the work of being the judge, and choosing
to keep your values but let other people be the judge. This approach has
helped me.

------
NumberCruncher
"To forgive and forget means to throw away dearly bought experience.” -
Schopenhauer

~~~
skinkestek
I used to believe that those two were the same but since a few years ago I
have come down closer to this.

That said I really do forgive even if I don't always forget:

\- the person will get cake/discounts/etc and I won't seek revenge

\- I might not however hire them / defend them / etc

I've struggled a bit with this and a number of similar problems since
according to my religion there's no forgiveness for me unless I forgive others
and I actually have a past so I better not void the deal ;-)

------
ggm
The take-away about forgiveness I carry is that doing wrong things has a life-
long burden. No amount of self-forgiveness can rid you of the burden of
remembering you did a thing you have strong negative emotions about. If you
did a stupid thing to yourself its a 'virtuous circle' but when you do it to
somebody else (and, I did) then you carry a burden of your impact into another
autonomous entitie's life.

I really regret what I did to them, and I regret what it did to me too.

No amount of forgiveness on their part will end this burden.

------
tarkin2
The phrase “to forgive _someone_ “ confuses me.

If you want to accept, no longer demand anything be said or done and move on
wiser—and this is your definition of forgiveness—then I can understand that.

But forgiving _someone_ implies you do, say or treat someone a certain way.
Most of the posts imply the opposite.

I generally accept someone’s destructive past actions without demanding an
apology and then move on with newfound caution and anger-dissolved-into-
disappointment regarding that person, but would you say that is “forgiving
_someone_ ”?

------
ogurechny
People considering a two thousand year old idea an original fresh take show
how self-delusional the concept of “progress” and believing in being smarter
than than brutes of the past are.

~~~
ben_w
Progress is a different thing to having an accurate model of what long-dead
people thought.

I mean, it can even be hard to accurately model someone who you’re having a
conversation with.

------
globular-toast
My ex and first love cheated on me in the worst possible way. I'm certain I've
been through a kind of grief that few people will ever experience as a result.
But I just got over it. I forgave her in the sense that I understand what
women are like now. She can't affect me any more. I've become so much
stronger. I'm Stoic now. Time is the great healer as always. Therapy and all
the rest of it are a massive swindle for the instant gratification age.

------
mensetmanusman
This is helped with practice.

Our family’s cultural/religious background instills this process from a young
age. Every evening, starting with the youngest child, everyone has a chance to
say what they are thankful for that day and they are also given space to say
‘I’m sorry if they feel they have wronged anyone.’

We teach the other children not to respond “that’s okay” but “I forgive you”
to properly acknowledge the wrongdoing.

It’s amazing how joyful children get with these simple rituals.

------
miedpo
I know this is a difficult subject for many. In any case, I can say this of my
own experiences with forgiveness. I find that forgiveness really helps me feel
happy.

------
Waterfall
I think the letting go part they mention is important but letting go can be
done in a different way. When you reframe the story, add a new chapter, one
where the last battle you lost, but the new one you win. Holding onto toxic
feelings is painful, you can either turn it into a good one (revenge), forgive
(reframe), or forget (drug use and/or time). Most people forget unless it was
really bad.

------
known
"Live well. It is the greatest revenge" \--Talmud

------
talentedcoin
Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the
devil a foothold.

\-- Ephesians 4:26-27

This is something that Christians have proclaimed for a long time.

------
jarbus
Shameless plus, I wrote a few paragraphs on this very topic a while back:
[http://jarbus.net/Forgiveness](http://jarbus.net/Forgiveness)

A core thing I want to mention is that Forgiveness doesn’t excuse actions, nor
does it mean you need to associate with people. Forgiving is purely about
letting go of anger.

------
mcguire
I was recently introduced to the best article on forgiveness (and some
politics) here the other day:

[https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GLMFmFvXGyAcG25ni/i-can-
tole...](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GLMFmFvXGyAcG25ni/i-can-tole.).

I Can Tolerate Anything Except The Outgroup by Scott Alexander

------
wenc
Forgiveness is a tough topic for many who have been hurt, so I expect we'll
see many comments along the lines of "what about this?" or "this is
unrealistic/too simplistic".

I hope we can be compassionate toward the skeptics in our replies.

------
627467
I have a hard time thinking that anything one does _isn 't_ about oneself
first and foremost. Even when that action is self-destructive.

But this is probably just my view of existence.

------
betenoire
Plot twist: it's ALL about us, if you keep digging

------
blueyes
This podcast feels like Freud warmed over. It doesn't provide much insight
into what goes on in people, or what they should do.

------
trabant00
> Without forgiveness, accumulated resentments extract a toll, says
> forgiveness coach Kym Kennedy.

Without snake oil your accumulated borxins extract a toll on your health, says
snake oil salesman.

We get angry to have an emotional STOP sign attached to certain experiences,
people, things, etc. You should always forgive like you should always forget
that fire burns. Go ahead, put your hand back in, get it out of your system.

~~~
sumtechguy
I live with someone who does not 'forget' and accumulates. It eats at them
every day. They get wildly angry at total strangers now for slight
transgressions. I regularly have to walk them through how most of what happens
is not aimed at them. People are just kinda of selfish or literally did not
see you. It eats at them all the time. I find them sitting in a room. "what
are you thinking" they will bring up something that happened well over 30
years ago as if it just happened to them 5 minutes ago. Sometimes it is how
someone made a bad turn in front of them in a car, sometimes it is how someone
swindled them for money. Yes, that was crappy what happened but if you live
with that sort of thing all the time you will be depressed and angry (as you
can do nothing now). You will bring down those around you. You will always be
on edge and guarded against anything that may harm you. Real forgiveness takes
'letting go' of it. You can remember it so they do not do it to you again. But
be careful not to hold on to it and relive it over and over.

~~~
trabant00
Getting angry for nothing is completely another topic. There is nothing to
forgive then.

Not forgiving does not mean you always think and remeber of. This yet another
issue.

Not forgiving means just that. If anybody asks you if you forgave you answer
no. Not that you despair every moment thinking about who wronged you when.

~~~
sumtechguy
The forgiveness is not always for them. It is sometimes for you. That was
their point. Forgiveness is a part of a process to 'let go'. Not doing it ever
can create distrust issues with total strangers. I have seen it a few times
with my own eyes. I am a large believer in 'little things make big things'.
Lots of little bad things can accumulate into one large bad thing. The
opposite is also true. You can chose to have non-forgiveness in your life.
That is your choice. I always ask myself do I want to be the happy dude at the
retirement home talking about my good friends or the bitter cynical guy who
holds a grudge. One dude I know still holds grudges from the mid 80s. He lives
them over and over. Because he can not let go. It has harmed him in every
aspect of his life.

------
raincom
Just forgiving without erasing it from memory wouldn't help, since you relive
through that act.

------
White_Wolf
Past is to be learned from, no to live in and no ammount of revenge will bring
you peace.

------
aszantu
Emily fletcher has a great meditation on forgiveness, it's about 10 minutes
long :)

------
jka
In this and many other conversations nowadays I find myself wondering how the
narrative applies through the lens of three different groups:

\- Those who are generally in good health (mental and physical) and who may
have experienced difficulties in the past but do not dwell on them

\- People who are victims and who encounter regular struggles as a result --
likely the intended audience of articles like this

\- Sociopaths who at best do not understand the emotional pain of others, and
at worst enjoy inflicting it

I hope the advice in the article is genuinely intended to help people in the
second group.

Sometimes I fear that content is authored or perpetuated by people from the
third group who would prefer to place the responsibility for repair on the
victims.

And frequently I find that the audience who reads and discusses it is the
first group, without really understanding the others and in particular how
charming, reasonable and attractive the third group can appear.

In short and in my experience: it is probably good advice but it should not
detract focus from the harm that some people willingly cause.

------
TedDoesntTalk
> a forgiveness author and peace educator

What is a peace educator?

~~~
yarrel
Someone who doesn't want people to speak up.

------
ChrisMarshallNY
I'm really glad to see this posted.

I think that "Forgiveness" and "Acceptance" are often confused. I feel that
the important part, for ourselves, is "Acceptance."

I won't go into details, but Forgiveness and Acceptance have been a
significant part of my life for about 40 years.

I have been on both sides of the coin. There are people who have had to
Forgive me (or not), and have had to Accept wrongs that I did them, and I have
had to Accept, and, in some cases, Forgive, trauma inflicted upon me.

A big part of my life has been dedicated to making sure that no one needs to
forgive me, or accept unacceptable behavior, on my part, and in making sure
that I don't set myself up for needless trauma.

In order to move past trauma, we need to "defuse the time bomb." We need to
_Accept_ it. We may never be able to _Forgive_ it, though.

I'm thinking about genocide survivors (I've known a few, including from events
other than The Holocaust), soldiers (including child soldiers), families of
murder victims, and rape/sexual assault/assault victims (I have known many;
including a number of males).

It's unreasonable to expect trauma victims to _Forgive_ their trauma-
inflictors, but they _must_ get to a point of Acceptance, if they ever want to
live a life that's halfway normal.

In some cases, it's because many cultures on Earth (including
family/clan/tribal cultures) consider Forgiveness to be weakness, or trauma
victims to be "at fault" (I won't get into the specifics, there, but it
happens _-a lot_ ). Even in those cultures, if we can separate Acceptance from
Forgiveness, there's a chance that people can heal.

Despite all that, I have seen some that have truly _Forgiven_ what I consider
to be unforgivable acts. Before they can Forgive, though, they have _always_
first reached a point of Acceptance.

Those people are my heroes.

Acceptance means coming to terms with trauma. It happened. It sucked. It was
deeply unfair. It was wrong. It may even have been downright evil. It left
scars (sometimes, literally). It may even have been self-inflicted, or
exacerbated by our own complicity. The perpetrators "got away with it," and
are still walking around, unconcerned, unrepentant, and unpunished. It's not
happening anymore. Despite all that, it still needs to be put into a place
_behind_ us, and no one is going to be able to do that, except ourselves. Time
won't heal this. It needs some elbow grease.

A very valuable part of Acceptance, is that it frees us to help others that
have gone through (or are going through) the same trauma. If we can't Accept,
we can't help others.

Another aspect of non-acceptance, is that unhealed trauma can actually make
trauma victims dangerous. Hurt people hurt people.

I know many folks that have never learned to live in _Acceptance_ , and their
lives are a vale of tears. When the external trauma stopped, it was replaced
by internal trauma.

There's a story I was told (completely made-up):

 _A man walks into a building, is immediately beaten badly by another man, and
thrown out into the street.

They get up, dust themselves off, put up their fists, and walk back in.

Same thing happens.

This is repeated a number of times.

Then, one time, they walk into the building, and the other man is no longer
there.

So they go looking for them._

------
mamon
We can have cookie and eat it to: stop being angry at those who wronged you,
just start plotting your revenge :) Treat revenge as just another item on your
todo list, just like shopping or dentist visit. Or maybe even outsource your
revenge by hiring a lawyer/PI/hitman to enact it.

