
Ask HN: I work for AWS. How do I encourage change for Amazon warehouse workers? - awscompassion
Ideally without getting fired.<p>I&#x27;ve voiced some of my concerns to management but that hasn&#x27;t gone anywhere. I know I&#x27;m not alone amongst my coworkers in feeling concerned for Fulfillment Center (FC, Amazon&#x27;s term for their retail warehouses) employees. How can we in AWS organize and campaign for better working conditions for our FC teammates?<p>This is of course inspired by Tim Bray&#x27;s recent departure from Amazon (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23065782" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23065782</a>). I&#x27;m a software engineer (surprise surprise) if it matters.
======
0x262d
Honestly, you have pretty little real leverage. Warehouse workers are going to
have to form a union and threaten to really shut down amazon's profits, in
order to defeat these profit-motivated outrages. It's always been like this.
People have to self-emancipate.

To aid this you can help promote support for unionizing and other related
things. But that's fairly secondary. I think using your position as an
employee to call out Amazon's abuses can be a good way to direct media
attention but without worker power, attention on its own doesn't actually do
anything. But Amazon firing its employees has given them a lot of bad press.
If it happens to you it might be a good thing politically. That does suck
though, if you can't afford it be careful.

Related to all of these topics I want to plug
[https://www.taxamazon.net/about](https://www.taxamazon.net/about), which
doesn't solve the issue of warehouse conditions but does help address one
other externality of Amazon's relentless drive for profits at the expense of
all other issues. Raising consciousness around their tax-dodging helps people
realize their worker relations are terrible and vice versa, and passing this
ballot initiative will do a lot of good on its own.

Edit: do get plugged in to Tech Workers’ Coalition if you aren’t. I just
wanted to be sober about the challenges and opposition warehouse workers face
and the necessary strategy for victory.

~~~
throwlaplace
>Honestly, you have pretty little real leverage. Warehouse workers are going
to have to form a union and threaten to really shut down amazon's profits

The way that unions fought capital in the early 20th was they went on strike
and remained on strike until capital conceded to demands or they were shutdown
by "detective agencies" ie strike breakers. Staying on strike cost money -
food, rent for strikers. National unions like the wobblies and AFL-CIO would
funnel national dues to locals. Are there even really national unions anymore?
Personally I would donate money to Amazon workers striking if there were a
call for it even though I wouldn't be in their hypothetical union.

Edit: lol downvotes from shareholders triggered by the word "strike"

~~~
vcarl
One significant change since that era of unionization is that programmers
can't actually shut down the business with a strike. If programmers stop
working, that doesn't actually directly impact revenue—if a group of factory,
warehouse, or service workers strike, then the business halts until the strike
is resolved. SRE/Ops could take down revenue generation, but that starts to be
something with legal liability. Laws prevent businesses from hiring new
workers to break a strike, but if you sabotage the code, then my understanding
is that there could be criminal charges against you.

That's not really relevant in the context of Amazon's _warehouse_ workers
unionizing, but I think it's an interesting constraint for us as software
developers.

~~~
omeze
I don’t work at AWS bit I think youre being a bit optimistic about the level
of automation most services have. If there are no SREs present for a month,
things will break at even the most sophisticated tech shops.

~~~
vcarl
I meant this as a commentary on the strike as a tactic for tech workers
generally. SREs and Ops are the teams that seem most able to effectively use a
strike to disrupt revenue, to be sure. Many services, though, would be able to
operate for months or longer without intervention.

------
mjayhn
What you were supposed to do was not go work at Amazon, just like plenty of us
won't work for Facebook, etc. Amazon being a terrible place to work isn't
something new or foreign to us SWEs. Hell, every time they tried to interview
me they'd tell me about how AWS is "run like a startup" and has very little do
with the rest of the company. That's telling right there.

Don't let them have our engineering talent even if they offer you the moon
(like Brays $1mil/yr). They should be fighting to repair their reputation to
even be able to hire SWEs/etc but because people pop out of College and want
to go make $120k (or people who only care about their income and not ethics)
they have no problem keeping that boat full of new blood.

I cannot fathom making $1m as a SWE over 5 years while the massive majority of
my company are treated like cannon fodder and it's well known throughout.. oh,
everywhere. It's really easy to quit and sound like a hero in that situation.
You're not a hero. You were still part of the problem that we've known about
for a long time.

~~~
geertj
I've been at AWS for almost 3 years now and I don't share the negative
sentiment. From what I'm seeing, in general, management tries to do the right
thing. I think it's more likely that given the size of the company and the
public spot light it is in, incidents that happen everywhere are given more
than average attention.

Can you clarify why you see "run as a startup" as a bad thing? I'm genuinely
trying to understand your perspective.

~~~
mjayhn
I'm not here to convince you that Amazon sucks or something, I was really
directing it to the thread OP who is upset that they're not helping as much as
they'd like to.

The way that AWS is tossed around/described almost makes it feel like a class-
gap between Amazon employees. "Oh, don't worry, you're with AWS, we pay for
our employees parking and give them healthcare, you're not part of those
Amazon shlubs who have had articles upon articles released about how poorly
they're treated. But you're kinda cousins, so you should care about them, just
don't care about them too much. We're all the Amazon family!"

For my more applied response to "run as a startup" being bad - after working
in 10 startups and losing half of my lifes holidays/weekends/etc launching
apps that never make money just sounds like you're going to try your hardest
to work me to burn out. So, I don't really like that sentence nowadays even in
non-AWS worlds, but I'm no longer in my 20s back when I let companies bleed me
dry. Don't let companies do that to you, it's not worth the mental health
issues that come with it. Not saying AWS is like this nowadays, but plenty of
startups are.

~~~
geertj
> The way that AWS is tossed around/described almost makes it feel like a
> class-gap between Amazon employees. "Oh, don't worry, you're with AWS, we
> pay for our employees parking and give them healthcare, you're not part of
> those Amazon shlubs who have had articles upon articles released about how
> poorly they're treated."

I Google around a bit, and found this article [1] from 2017 where an Amazon VP
commented that his benefit package is the same as that of warehouse workers.

> For my more applied response to "run as a startup" being bad - after working
> in 10 startups and losing half of my lifes holidays/weekends/etc launching
> apps that never make money just sounds like you're going to try your hardest
> to work me to burn out. So, I don't really like that sentence nowadays even
> in non-AWS worlds.

Thanks for sharing that. I'm not trying to convince you either, just sharing
my perspective to ensure a balanced discussion. When people say "run as a
startup" I think they mostly refer to the positives, i.e. having a lot of
autonomy and a surprisingly low amount of politics (for the size of the
company). People at AWS work hard but it's not crazy and from what I've seen
it certainly doesn't rise to anywhere close to your startup experience. One
particular about work at AWS is that if you're in a service team you'll be
oncall for some amount of time each quarter. Operator culture is very
important here. Oncall duties will vary by team, and I think workload will
also be different for different teams.

In my experience (having worked at a startup myself too), I think the biggest
two differences between a startup and AWS are: i) AWS actually has processes
(called "mechanisms" internally) and they generally work, ii) when you're
building a product, it will usually be successful. This is because the process
to get to a product definition (the "working backwards" process) is extremely
rigorous and rarely results in products or features that are duds.

[1] [https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employee-
benefits-201...](https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employee-
benefits-2017-8)

------
indymike
I'm not trying to defend Amazon, but the picture many of us have is inaccurate
(I own a recruitment marketing company and have recruited for and against
Amazon over the past five years in many markets). Prior to COVID, Amazon was
one of the best-paying warehouse jobs and was putting immense upward pressure
on restaurant, retail and low-end construction job pay. In many markets,
Amazon was paying warehouse workers $16-$17/hour where the prevailing wage was
$12-$13. The working conditions story wasn't as good for Amazon, and most
companies were competing with Amazon by on benefits, policy (i.e. no seasonal
layoffs, late, sick, vacation, etc) or culture (we're family friendly, free
cookout every day, etc...).

~~~
missedthecue
Fake news has really taken this Amazon thing and run with it, fanning the
flames of false outrage. Disappointing to see.

~~~
m463
Historically ALL corporations that have reached a certain size are likely to
get media attention for good and for bad.

This goes for Standard Oil (and probably every oil company since), AT&T, IBM,
microsoft, walmart, google and tesla.

~~~
heyoni
I remember the story about some guy saying he had to piss in a bottle at the
amazon warehouse...I believe that story, but I also believe if you take any
random sample of half a million people, at least 1 person in that group will
be peeing in a bottle that year. And then there’s the whistleblower who was
trying to gather support when he was getting paid to be at home for 2 weeks...

------
Teamster
You can serve as a shadow union organizer, provide organization and a plan for
warehouse workers. Study what the Teamsters did
[https://teamster.org/content/first-teamsters-building-
union](https://teamster.org/content/first-teamsters-building-union) 1\.
Organize offsite meetings for influential warehouse workers, convince them to
become local union reps for each warehouse 2\. Those leaders recruit lower
level members to join the union and pay part of their wages into a fund used
to recruit more union members and hire outside leadership (lawyers, others
experienced in forming unions) 3\. Quickly grow your membership while building
a war chest but not actually hurting operations 4\. Organize a strike that
actually stops the ability for more than one critical facility to ship and
receive products 5\. Block access to the facility for any scabs or temporary
workers that the company hires 6\. Be ready and willing to negotiate with
management, understand what you actually want.

~~~
AmericanChopper
> 5\. Block access to the facility for any scabs or temporary workers that the
> company hires

Everything you mentioned other than this involves withdrawing or threatening
to withdraw your own labor. Which is perfectly reasonable, because you have no
obligation to work for an employer, and if they're not willing to meet your
expectations, you don't have to continue doing so. However, if somebody else
is willing to do a job that an employer is offering, you have no right at all
to prevent them from entering into an arrangement. You really just become a
gang at that point.

~~~
testbot123
That's not how it works. Scabs who break the line are harming workers' ability
to organize and demand fair working conditions. The onus is on the scab to
find employment elsewhere, because by crossing the line they're not only
harming the people striking, but the workers they represent as a class,
including the scab. Don't cross picket lines, and don't let people cross
picket lines – you're undermining human beings fighting for humane treatment –
you included.

~~~
AmericanChopper
You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you withdraw your labor from an
employer, and can’t act as though you have some ongoing exclusive right to
provide that labor. By the same logic you provided, the organizers are harming
the class of all people willing to take the employment on offer. When seeking
employment, you have no onus at all to first check with the class of all
potential candidates for that role to determine whether they all consider the
tabled offer to be fair. The only judgement you have to make is whether you
do.

~~~
Teamster
The picketers and strikers are actually helping the scabs, when the strike
succeeds the scabs are free to apply for work at a higher wage. The absence of
unions and their successful strike is literally the reason the wage gap is so
large. Stopping access of scabs is even more critical in a low skill job such
as picking items.

~~~
AmericanChopper
Using force and intimidation to coerce people into joining an organisation
that gets to take part of their income, and dictate the terms of their
employment is for their own benefit? How exactly is this any different from
the classic protection racket? I'm not sure the people who were unemployed
before a strike, and then still unemployed after it are going to buy into how
beneficial this is for them. Nor am I convinced that the people who were happy
with their working conditions, and were forced to take unpaid leave by the
union that they did not join are going to see it that way either.

A lot of the tyranny that we have seen through our history on this planet has
started off with somebody deciding that they know what's good for others
better than they do for themselves, so they'd just be better off if you could
make their decisions for them. The truth is that you don't get to make those
decisions for other people, regardless of how important their compliance is to
your own plans.

~~~
uoaei
Unions are run like a representative democracy. The comparison with protection
rackets is asinine.

It sounds like you have zero experience with unions.

------
rocketpastsix
really hope nothing about this can be tied back to you at AWS.

If you want to help, build a one page site giving the FC people all the
information they need to get the ball rolling at their levels.

I think at your level, the only thing that will catch attention is a
principled stand i.e. resigning and in your exit interviews make it clear why
you are resigning. Tim was the start, if tons of colleagues follow him out the
door, it will be noticed, which means you need to find like minded people and
all resign together.

~~~
samatman
> _find like minded people_

This is also known as organizing.

Organizing and then mass resigning has got to be the least efficient use of
the potential organizing represents.

Organize and join a union that's already working with FC. This gives you a
chance to hear, directly, what outcomes they desire, and advocate for it.

Software workers are notoriously reluctant to organize. They figure "hey, I'm
well paid already, what is organizing going to get me?"

Let this situation serve as an answer to that question. Good luck.

~~~
Kalium
Speaking solely and exclusively for myself, I've been skeptical of every
organization attempt I've encountered in software because they all seem
misguided. Too many talk about gaining political influence to push (insert
unrelated policy goal here). A deeply disturbing number seek to create some
kind of guild that can enforce (insert arbitrary personal moral code here) on
all its members and render unemployable anyone who crosses it.

I do not find those attractive prospects.

I've yet to personally encounter a clear-eyed would-be SWE-union-organizer who
is interested in sticking to nuts and bolts. "What's in it for me?" isn't a
selfish question to be brushed off, it's _the only question that matters_.

~~~
samatman
That might be true... for you.

For Tim Bray, and our anonymous AWS poster, "What's in it for us?" is,
clearly, also a salient question.

It's true that ultimately "What's in it for me" is the only question which
really moves the needle. Here, the answer is "an opportunity to raise issues
with management and not get brushed off".

Today the issue is the treatment of FC workers. There's no way that this is
the last issue that will ever arise.

~~~
Kalium
I've found that appeals to solidarity, by themselves, rarely move the needle
for enough individuals to make a large-scale difference. Your experience may
differ.

Union-to-union solidarity might perhaps be a different question -
organizations reason differently than individuals. Of course, this requires
that both organizations already exist.

So, again, _what 's in it for me_? The chance to "raise issues" doesn't sound
like something I would want to stick my neck out for. The chance to have
someone lecture me about the importance of solidarity doesn't sound
appealing... for me.

------
riffic
Become a Wobbly or look at other alternatives:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_Worl...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_World)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tech_Workers_Coalition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tech_Workers_Coalition)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Workers_of_Amer...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Workers_of_America)

~~~
vcarl
I know that the Tech Workers Coalition (TWC) has done some significant
organizing against Amazon, in the form of protests/drawing media attention,
and in deeper/less visible aspects that more directly work towards warehouse
worker protections. Definitely a good group to reach out to if this is a cause
that's important to you.

------
_msw_
Disclosure: I work at Amazon, for AWS, as a VP / Distinguished Engineer.

Even though you work at AWS, there are ways to get familiar with how
fulfillment centers work, and what the working conditions are like by doing
the various jobs in a two day on-site program called C2FC. It's been nearly 9
years since I last did this, and I find myself wanting to do it again. It used
to be compulsory training for all L7+ employees at the company, but this has
been relaxed as we have grown larger, so some people aren't aware that the
program exists. I believe that it is open to all full time employees, though
they are currently not holding sessions (as you can imagine COVID-19 makes
this impractical).

Getting connected with the right owners can sometimes be a challenge at a
place like Amazon. As you're in an engineering role, the Principal Engineering
Community is a resource can connect you to other engineers inside the company
that are working, hands on, on challenging problems that include how we build
safe working environments for FC associates. The SDEs in the operations
organization are customer obsessed, and those customers include FC associates
who use the tools and technology to perform their daily work. You can consider
transferring to work directly on technology that FC associates use, and
directly with the associates who use them as your customer.

Raising concerns internally to the right owner, in good faith, has always been
welcome in my experience at Amazon. If you aren't directly in an organization
that is working on solutions, progress might not be visible to you. There are
challenges where we all are not satisfied with the speed in which we are able
to address them. But that does not mean that there aren't coworkers working
earnestly in doing so.

If you would like to reach directly out to me, you can via email or Chime. My
login is "msw". I try to keep an open door policy, as much as my schedule
allows, and practice discretion in how I try to address concerns. However, I
cannot promise to keep every conversation strictly confidential, as I am
obligated to report probable violations of the Amazon Code of Conduct and
Ethics [1] in my position (including any discrimination, harassment, or
retaliation of any reports of misconduct or concerns that are made in good
faith by an employee).

[1] [https://ir.aboutamazon.com/corporate-governance/documents-
an...](https://ir.aboutamazon.com/corporate-governance/documents-and-
charters/code-of-business-conduct-and-ethics/default.aspx)

~~~
leakybit
> However, I cannot promise to keep every conversation strictly confidential,
> as I am obligated to report probable violations of the Amazon Code of
> Conduct and Ethics [1] in my position (including any discrimination,
> harassment, or retaliation of any reports of misconduct or concerns that are
> made in good faith by an employee).

narc spotted

~~~
_msw_
I think you have it backwards.

[edit] For clarity: I generally understand employee rights and protections, at
least where I live, and I consider it part of my responsibility to communicate
about them in concrete, factual ways, and to try to ensure that they are
upheld.

------
rickyplouis
As already repeated here, unionize or find someone with the leadership capable
of leading one. As an individual you may not have much power, but a group of
AWS engineers collectively unionizing and protesting within the company is a
powerful force to be reckoned with.

~~~
specialist
Union organizer Jane McAlevey recently did some webinars.

[https://janemcalevey.com/speaking-engagement/organizing-
for-...](https://janemcalevey.com/speaking-engagement/organizing-for-power-
coronovirus-and-everything-after-a-global-online-training-webinar-with-jane-
mcalevey/2020-03-30/)

[https://janemcalevey.com](https://janemcalevey.com)

If you find recordings, or future events, please share.

My intro to McAlevey was this interview:

A master class in organizing
[https://www.vox.com/podcasts/2020/3/17/21182149/jane-
mcaleve...](https://www.vox.com/podcasts/2020/3/17/21182149/jane-mcalevey-the-
ezra-klein-show-labor-organizing)

I did the Camp Wellstone general purpose organizer training ages ago. It was
superior. [https://www.wellstone.org](https://www.wellstone.org)

\--

Meta:

The book The Logic of Collective Action transformed my thinking about unions,
orgs, work, etc.

TL;DR: What to do about defectors, a la game theory.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Collective_Action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Collective_Action)

Wish I'd read this book ages ago.

------
_bxg1
I think the only way to change Amazon's behavior is to hit them where it
hurts: their bottom line. Right now these practices continue to be profitable
- there are no consequences - and even among other giant corporations, Amazon
stands out as worshipping profits at all other costs. I'm confident that no
amount of internal advocation/culture-shifting will change that. The
incentives have to be realigned.

So what to do in your position?

You could quit and encourage others to do so. However, _a lot_ of people would
have to quit over this issue for it to start registering on management's
radar, so that might not be very effective.

The other major option I think is whistleblowing/bringing attention to the
issue/garnering bad press for the company. This is what Tim Bray did, but
there are other ways of going about it. You could organize a protest along
with your coworkers, for example. However, there's probably nothing you can do
that wouldn't expose you to risk. And Amazon has shown how it deals with
dissenters.

What I would do personally is start looking for another job, and once I have a
contract signed, _then_ do something bridge-burning like organizing a protest
or writing a blog post or whatever.

~~~
rootusrootus
> You could quit and encourage others to do so. However, a lot of people would
> have to quit over this issue for it to start registering on management's
> radar, so that might not be very effective.

A few months ago I was invited to an AWS recruiting event. For kicks, I
accepted and went to listen to their spiel. There were quite a lot of people
there. I'd say that for every software engineer at Amazon who quits in
protest, there are 100x that waiting to take their old job. And with the
market downturn we're experiencing right now, it'll only get worse. We have
less leverage now than we've had in years.

~~~
_bxg1
Yes, there are lots of people out there who don't care remotely about the
greater good. Maybe even more than there are people who do care.

But there's also a defeatist phenomenon - a Prisoners' Dilemma sort of thing -
where people who do care, and could make a small difference at relatively
small personal sacrifice, don't do so because their individual drop in the
bucket won't matter on its own. I think there are lots of people who find
themselves in that mindset, and I think if they all decided to take that extra
step then a very real difference could be made. So my personal rule is to
always take that extra step when I can afford to, no matter whether it will
make a difference on its own, because I think of the other thousand people who
might find themselves in the exact same situation, and how if we all took that
approach it would start to matter.

So for me: I could afford to turn down an Amazon recruiter on principle, so I
did. And I told them why. Maybe I could've made more money, but I don't really
need more money, so it wasn't a huge sacrifice. Now, each person's
circumstances are different, and the economy right now raises the stakes
across the board. If you can't find a job, I don't blame you for taking (or
keeping) one at Amazon. But if you don't really need to, consider taking a
stand, and maybe the next person will too.

~~~
rootusrootus
I have thus far managed to turn down Amazon every time one of their recruiters
comes calling, but I won't lie, it probably has more to do with their reputed
office culture and their views of side projects than the plight of their
warehouse workers. I just don't know enough about the warehouse conditions to
have a particularly informed (and therefore strong) opinion.

------
gremlinsinc
Why not create a mobile app to allow all amazon workers to communicate and
organize anonymously.

Could create an amazon-whistleblower subreddit, where people can post and
shame managers on reddit, though might break the doxxing rules of reddit. So
maybe create your own platform and create subs for different groups w/in
amazon.

I'd do it all anonymously or get someone else to do it for you in their name
who has no connections to you...

I'm actually wanting to create a platform like this...if I had time/money to
do so. Think something like talkyard closer to reddit though w/ nested sub
reddits... so you could have like a reddit for Farm Animals and under it Farm
Animals > Goats, Farm Animals > Cows, and Farm Animals would show all posts
from Farm Animals, Goats, and Cows..and even Goats > Baby Goats.

The goal is to use it for managing unions actually, allowing thought on issues
of governance, question/answers, suggestions, and other 'types' of content
blocks but I'm one dev, and not the best on frontend tech, though I'm full-
stack/vue I always get caught up w/ the minute details.

~~~
zacharycohn
This situation is not a technology problem.

~~~
devonkim
Technology merely facilitates what people want to have in the first place such
as in the Arab Spring situation. Unfortunately, most of the anger and violence
in the US to incite change is likely to come from our right rather than our
left.

------
qntty
I'm inclined to say that you're better off finding ways to organize outside of
the context of work. Big corporations aren't going to change until there's an
organized worker's movement in the US that can pressure the government to pass
laws. Pressuring a single corporation to (appear to) change their policies is
a losing game. You don't have to be as ambitious as trying to affect national
politics, but maybe get involved in political activism in your city.

~~~
jakelazaroff
I disagree with this. Your 9–5 spent powering the machine that mistreats these
workers probably vastly outweighs whatever wins you're able to eke out on
nights and weekends. See also "Ethics can't be a side hustle" [0]

[0] [https://deardesignstudent.com/ethics-cant-be-a-side-
hustle-b...](https://deardesignstudent.com/ethics-cant-be-a-side-
hustle-b9e78c090aee)

~~~
qntty
I suspect that if 1,000,000 people across the country decided tomorrow to
refuse to work for an unethical company, the benefit would be pretty marginal.
They would just find someone else. But if 1,000,000 people got involved in
political activism, even if only on nights and weekends, I think that it could
really change the country.

When you're refusing to work for an unethical company, you're playing a very
different game than when you get involved in political activism. You need a
very high percentage (>10% of an industry?) of people to commit to refusing to
work for an unethical company for it to make a difference. On the other hand,
a very small number of people engaging in political activism can change the
consciousness of the entire country very quickly. Think of the way that a few
people hanging out in Zuccotti Park changed the way that we talk about wealth
in America. Nobody knew what the "99%" was before that.

------
joecot
As an AWS employee I doubt there's a ton you can do to influence Amazon's
physical product side. What you could do is try to influence AWS to stop being
the backbone for ICE and DHS's extremely cruel deportation policies. Since I
went to an AWS Summit in NYC and walked through protesters shouting "Cut ties
with ICE"[1] I've done my best to divest myself from AWS solutions, though
it's slow going. Get AWS more employees to stand up to AWS over ICE and DHS.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/07/12/no-
tech-i...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/07/12/no-tech-ice-
protesters-demand-amazon-cut-ties-with-federal-immigration-enforcement/)

~~~
all_blue_chucks
Do you refuse to support all businesses that sell to DHS abd CBP?

------
barkingcat
Unionize! Anyone can join/form a union, and I think in the US it's illegal to
fire you because you are involved in a union.

~~~
sova
Depends on the state, some states are humorously called "Right to Work"
states. Washington state where Amazon is headquartered would be a good place
to start a union that includes workers from across the workforce. Pilots and
Flight Attendants should barter together against the airline, right?

~~~
missedthecue
What's wrong with Right to Work? I shouldn't be forced to join a cartel to
sell my labour on the market.

~~~
sova
I think I made a mistake in my assessment of what "Right to Work" means, but I
have noticed at least in Colorado that unionization is actively discouraged
and a lot of corporate propaganda indoctrinates workers into believing (via
video training and paid actors) that unions are bad and to be avoided. I find
this a dark pattern and shady practice, it may not have anything to do with
"Right to Work," but I think that they hold hands to some degree.

------
mtnGoat
i think what Tim Bray did was best. As an engineer there you are a resource
that is enabling this machine. The best way to stop the machine and get
noticed is to stop output.

Until AWS realizes their refusal to take action will erode both their bottom
line and their talent pool, nothing will change.

change needs leaders!

------
fareesh
Amazon is not cruel because of evil in someone's heart that manifests itself
in the form of intentionally creating harsh workplace conditions. It is a
situation arising out of the dilemma of profits vs employee welfare in the
context of difficult circumstances.

Most folks here will probably suggest some kind of antagonistic approach like
unionizing, etc. but I think it is a better approach to try and figure out a
profitable way to have employee welfare in these circumstances.

You can assign some monetary figure to the current situation by factoring the
PR, the escalating tension and perhaps an inevitable revolt. See if that money
can be spent in a way that can create a long-lasting operations improvement
that makes the employees' jobs easier and adds layers of operational
efficiency or redundancy.

To do that you'd have to dive deep into the specifics of the situation and
understand the motivations of all the competing interests at play, with the
goal of coming up with a solution that makes everyone a little happier. I saw
a few comments here that talked about going and volunteering at the warehouse
to understand things better. That would be a great start.

~~~
lazyasciiart
Unionizing is only antagonistic if you think management really does want to
screw over workers. In a healthy workplace, the union absolutely wants the
business to succeed and profit, so that the workers can also benefit. Unions
are a way of representing one of the competing interests that you identify.

~~~
nickff
This is often (though not always) true for single-company unions, but not for
unions made up of employees at multiple, competing companies. The game theory
gets complicated when you're using one negotiation as leverage or signalling
for your next negotiation at a competing firm.

------
SkyMarshal
Taking care of employees needs to start with the business continuity planning
department [1]. Usually either in Operations or Finance. Find them and talk to
them. Ideally they should already be doing it. Disruptions to fulfillment due
to outbreaks and mass sickness should a priority for them. And Amazon of all
orgs has the ability to supply it's workers with PPE (they're already
reserving high-quality PPE on their site for medical and essential workers).

Worst case scenario is they've decided it's cheaper to risk an outbreak in
their fulfillment centers and just fire the sick employees and hire
replacements from among the ~30million newly jobless, even accounting for the
expense of resulting lawsuits. If that's the case, not much you can do besides
quit or put together a class action lawsuit (or join one of the existing
ones).

But if that's not the case, then maybe you'll learn something useful from
them.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_continuity_planning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_continuity_planning)

~~~
_jal
Attempting to negotiate with Ops or Finance at this stage is doomed. They have
made their position clear; it is time to counteroffer.

A union is what you want here, that can credibly threaten real pain. Depending
on how that needs to be communicated, after the people with the purse strings
take you seriously, _then_ you sit down to talk.

~~~
lazyasciiart
A counter offer is negotiating.

------
op03
What you can get done in large orgs depends fully on your network. Without a
network you don't have influence.

All the people with influence in the org can be ranked in importance by how
large their networks are, and how strong their links with others are within
those networks.

So start building a network or find someone who does it well and help them.
The kind of people who can pull stuff off are influential in one large group
or have a connect with many small group. So find them or learn how to be them.
It takes __time__ and lot of __work__.

People like to believe there is some quick shortcut to gaining and exerting
influence. Understandable because these days networks can spontaneously emerge
with just a single post or pic or tweet going viral. But these spontaneous
forming networks are ephemeral. They can loose their structure and integrity
as quickly as they gain them. The powers that be know this and just have to
buy time till it happens.

So there are no shortcuts. Problems like the one you want to solve will keep
showing up. This is not the first time or last time you are going to encounter
this stuff. But if you want to influence outcomes, you have to do the work of
building your network.

Just like building skills, connections, resources to fix software issues. If
you haven't built those up over time you can't just show up and say I just
wish I could do something about this bug.

And last point, as you build up influence pick small bugs you know you and
your group can fix first. Prove to yourself and the group you can get it done.
Only then pick more complex bugs.

People who pick the complex stuff first get stuck in a trap. With complex
stuff there is always someone else to blame, and that takes focus away from
whether you and your group have built up enough skill to be working on the bug
in the first place.

------
ThePhysicist
I assume you're in the US? If you were in Europe (e.g. France or Germany) I
would recommend to join a worker union, as they have larger leverage against
companies and can (often) protect you against direct retaliation (though I've
heard that union members will be "shadowbanned" from rising too high in most
organizations).

Here in Germany Amazon fights vigorously against further unionization in its
warehouses, I think that's a good indication that they're actually concerned
about the union and see them as a threat (which is good).

I'm not very familiar with the union situation in the US but from my limited
knowledge it seems they are less strong there, which really is a shame. Maybe
you can donate some money to one though and support them so they can be more
effective in their fight? Here in Europe most unions are not very tech-savvy
so they are really happy to get help from people that are good with
technology. Good luck!

------
baron816
You want to do the right thing, and that’s commendable, but you have to
recognize that you may not have enough information, particularly as a virtual
outsider, to force your own management decisions in this case. It may seem
like Amazon is being greedy here, but they creating many jobs that otherwise
wouldn’t exist for people who live on the margins of the economy. And by
driving down costs, they’re driving down prices. That may not matter too much
for you, but it matters a lot to most people.

Look, there could be adverse effect from what you’re trying to do. The going
narrative is that Amazon is evil and is just abusing it’s workforce. I doubt
work is great in a FC, but there are plenty of worse jobs out there that don’t
get as much attention. And just imagine what it’s like working in most other
parts in the work. For many people around there world, a FC job would be a
dream.

~~~
zbentley
I don't think the claim is that Amazon is evil, or that the alternative to
permitting bad practices is Amazon laying people off.

The idea is to make things better. Labor laws, union efforts, and employer
initiatives have proven again and again that this is a positive sum game.

Put another way: Amazon's ability to provide jobs is negatively impacted in
only a very small way by fixing bad practices. They just need to be
incentivized to do that.

------
cwkoss
(Probably a dangerous idea and don't suggest you actually do this, but if I
was to put on my black hat...)

I think the most impactful thing you can do is try to harm productivity by
wasting engineering time and resources.

Anonymously post a manifesto about how AWS employees are organizing to
maliciously waste time, introduce bugs into the AWS codebase and otherwise
cause downtime and degradation of services because of FC issues. Bring it to
as many managers as would be inconspicuous saying, "Hey, it looks like some
coworkers are trying to damage the business and waste time because of FC
issues, thought this should be on your radar." \- begin sowing distrust. Use
your inside knowledge to make the threat appear credible, but coming from a
different team. Say they are planning to:

Report bugs introduced by your most talented coworkers as potential acts of
malicious sabotage or cybersecurity threats. Report and escalate every minor
security policy violation you see to the highest level possible - over-
applying policies in places where there is ambiguity but it is not technically
necessary. Ignore the errors of and speak highly of coworkers that are
ineffective and/or make many errors. Start pedantic-but-seemingly-reasonable
arguments in code reviews. Accuse other coworkers raising valid concerns of
being pedantic, unreasonable, impractical, yagni, yak shaving etc. Try to get
people to hold unnecessary meetings on issues that don't require one - ideally
where you don't have to attend.

You don't have to _actually_ do any of these things, just act concerned and
warn coworkers and managers to keep an eye out for these malicious behaviors.
If you could convince management that 2% of their AWS workforce was attempting
to engage in these behaviors, it would create a culture of distrust that would
waste huge amounts of resources tracking down false leads and dealing with
unfounded accusations - and the existence of the meme in the culture would
likely inspire some jaded engineers to actually engage in some of these
behaviors without direct coordination.

~~~
nickff
This all seems like fraud. IANAL but this is potentially criminal activity.

~~~
cwkoss
Of course, I'd never suggest they'd actually do this - this is all just
speculative fiction.

I think it could be effective though - employee wouldn't have to actually
engage in any of these behaviors (besides spreading the meme), and it would
sow distrust and make others suspicious that mistakes may be malice.

~~~
nickff
This is basically the cloud equivalent of calling in bomb threats.

I would counsel against both.

~~~
cwkoss
I think equating this with violence is superlative, but certainly has some
equivalency to industrial sabotage.

~~~
nickff
So more like cloud-based extortion?

------
gorgoiler
It is commendable you want to make a change in the world.

Unless you are essentially famous though, I’m not sure that as a regular
Amazon employee you carry much more weight than someone campaigning directly
in FC, or someone external campaigning for better worker relations and
employee rights.

In fact, because of who you work for, it’s going to be much harder and messier
than most for you to objectively campaign on this issue. Not only could you
get fired, you could lose any chance of a good reference and generate quite a
lot of ill will with folk you’ll encounter in your career later on.

In all honesty you might find it better to put your energy into another issue.
You can have just as much impact without compromising your current working
relationship, and without being accused of double standards: biting the hand
that feeds you.

------
qqssccfftt
Unionise.

~~~
e12e
This. Unionise. Work with unions that organize warehouse workers. Coordinate a
strike across all Amazon business areas.

------
vergessenmir
Unless you can directly band co-workers together and voice your position
collectively do nothing and keep your head down. It's not worth losing your
job over.

I know it sounds cynical but the only way you can get managerial attention is
if it hurts workers productivity (like the Google walkout two years ago) or if
you can hurt their bottom line. If you go at it alone you'll barely get the
right kind of awareness. See what happened to James Damore when he went
against the machine solo. Irrespective of your views on his stance his exit
gives a flavour of how things could go.

What you could do anonymously is help workers organise their protests, help
them circumvent AMZN s in-built policies that prevent this.

I want you to succeed but at the same time needlessly falling on your sword
helps noone.

------
rb808
Vote out republicans. Not just the president but every Midterm, local
election. Encourage others to mobilize to elect a blue Senator.

~~~
lainga
Ideally a Clinton, so we can get PNTR with China back?

------
chrisgoman
Go work at the warehouse after your day job? So you can see what the problems
are from your perspective as an engineer ...

~~~
SamWhited
HomeDepot makes all their developers do this at least once a year, from what
I've heard. I've always liked this idea (although I do wonder how effective it
is?).

~~~
chrisgoman
Should be how every company works ... you will be surprised at what you will
learn just walking around. It does take some initiative from the person -- do
you just want a job or do you want to be the BEST in your job

------
aecjamazonian
Hey awscompassion, I am not surprised that you tried expressing concerns with
internal management and were ignored... the only things that have gotten
movement from Amazon (on climate change, warehouse worker safety) were actions
taken by employees that did not follow Amazon's verified™ feedback mechanisms.
A few people have been retaliated against, but thousands more have taken
action and have so far been safe in their numbers.

In Tim's Blog post he talks about Amazon Employees for Climate Justice as an
organization of corporate Amazon workers he supports. You should reach out to
them, either DM them on twitter
([https://twitter.com/AMZNforClimate](https://twitter.com/AMZNforClimate)) or
their gmail (amazonemployeesclimatejustice@gmail.com).

It's true, 2 of their leaders were fired by Amazon which was a big reason Tim
quit AWS. The firings might scare you. If it does, Amazon is getting exactly
what it wants ... scaring away other employees who care about other humans by
only having to fire two vocal dissidents. If you want change to happen, if you
REALLY, ACTUALLY feel compassion and want change, you can't allow yourself to
be intimidated and bullied by anti-labor forces within Amazon.

But besides the 2 members who were fired, there are many more sympathizers who
are organizing for both warehouse worker safety and climate action who have
not been fired. There are lots of things you can do through AECJ with varying
levels of power/risk/exposure, including actions that would be very low-risk
for retaliation by Amazon. Get in touch with them and make a difference!

------
Clubber
It's like chess, they won't move where you want them to move, until you force
them to move there. How do you force them to move?

Strikes are a historical way of doing it. It forces them to move, but only
after exhausting all other possibilities. Study the early history of the
creation of unions in the US. You might be surprised to discover it was
extremely violent, typically coming from the corporations. This violence
typically occurred after the union was successfully formed and in operation.

The first trick with unionizing a non union company, because the US political
parties have turned their back on them for the last 50 or so years, is
undetected coordination. Companies will discover union leaders and remove them
from the equation. Some companies will sense a union forming and close the
entire operation and move it to a new location with new employees. They will
also add plants posing as workers but really reporting to management. Also,
the threat of moving the factory overseas is an overpowering factor for the
company.

The end goal is strike, or at least show you have the ability to strike. That
is the move that forces the company to at least think about moving where you
want them to. To strike, you need to coordinate and early on, it needs to be
undetected.

~~~
amelius
> Companies will discover union leaders and remove them from the equation.

Could someone from outside the organization take the lead?

~~~
Clubber
You could certainly try it, but you'd have to be able to figure out and filter
who the management plants were, otherwise your site/app could be used by
management to actually discover workers who are trying to unionize.

------
tba212
A really valuable starting point for this question of organizing is to talk to
someone who is a labor expert. They can share strategies, ramifications,
safety protocols, etc. and can think with you about how this applies to your
situation. Organizations like Tech Workers Coalition (TWC), Boston Tech
Workers for Justice (BTWJ) and the Campaign to Organize Digital Employees
(CODE-CWA) can all be valuable groups to reach out to for this support.

------
elliekelly
What if you started collecting data to show your bosses that Amazon’s
treatment of FC workers is starting to impact the AWS business? For example,
I’ve long since stopped ordering from Amazon because of the way they treat
warehouse workers but I still used AWS. A few weeks ago I decided to quit AWS,
too. Not because of any issue with AWS but because I don’t want to give any
money to Amazon.

Switching platforms is a bit like switching cellphone providers or a bank -
the customers are “sticky” and will put up with a lot because the transition
is a giant pain in the ass. I’m just one small player but I’m sure there are
others. And the longer Amazon fights against treating their employees like
humans the more collateral damage there will be to all of the Amazon brands.

I wish it were as easy as appealing to management to do the “right thing” but
sometimes it helps to show people there’s something in it for them, too. If
AWS management knows their otherwise well-run division is taking collateral
damage because of bad warehouse PR they might be moved to lend their voices to
the cause as well. Make the warehouse worker problems AWS management problems,
so to speak.

~~~
cameronbrown
I imagine it's next to impossible for a rank-and-file to get access to
sensitive business data like that. And anything from outside the org is
anecdata or will be treated so by management.

------
otheramznthrow
One option is to get closer to the problem.

Fulfillment Tech org just threw away their OP2 (Operational plan) for the year
and have a huge number of new priorities to help FC associates in light of the
covid situation.

I really respect Tim Bray and the step he's taken. But unless you're willing
to take that kind of step, no one in the upper echelon will give a care what
you do or say. And even then, probably only if you're an L8 or higher.

------
confounded
Talk to your colleagues.

There are internal mailing-lists for employees who care about this, as well as
environmental issues. The lists also have plenty of people who are only there
to sneer and astroturf; being on the list is unlikely to get you into trouble.

A much less useful but worthwhile activity is participating in Amazon
shareholder meetings and voting on resolutions, and perhaps more importantly,
encouraging your colleagues to do the same.

~~~
riffic
> Talk to your colleagues.

Along with this, know your rights:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_concerted_activity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_concerted_activity)

~~~
riffic
Also, a reference found via a reddit post after looking further into this:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Law_for_the_Rank_and_Fil...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Law_for_the_Rank_and_Filer)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/IWW/comments/f5uw7d/concerted_activ...](https://www.reddit.com/r/IWW/comments/f5uw7d/concerted_activity_as_defined_by_the_national/)

------
francisofascii
I don't think leaving Amazon is the answer. As an outsider, it is encouraging
to know there are insiders who want change. Amazon is not going anywhere. It
will continue to be part of our society. If all the good employees like you
leave, they will be replaced with soulless employees and could make the
problem worse. Do your job and push for change as much as you can without
getting fired.

------
j45
Knowledge isn't just power anymore, learning how to use knowledge is power.

Amazon appears to be restricting the less economically privileged class of
their society from having access to knowledge to delay, defer and downplay
changes. It's reminiscent of other larger societies that have done the same.

If factory workers don't have access to the knowledge and support that you do,
they can't use it. Put your higher salary into indirect/external workforce
education targeting warehouse workers. Put together information, pay for some
ads, target Amazon employees, you and others can likely reach their phones.

If Costco can pay and treat their people well.. why not anyone else.

I've certainly curtailed my Amazon spend, and other technology leaders I know
have done so personally too over the past year. Covid has accelerated other
retailers opening up their online services and I look forward to seeing what
that brings.

------
iandanforth
Prepare to be fired.

By this I mean, build yourself a safety net. Save money explicitly for a
period of unemployment. Build relationships that could turn into new jobs.
Document your work well to protect against claims of poor performance.
Depending on how serious you are, reach out discretely to a lawyer.

There is a dangerous narrative that reformers are brave soldiers throwing
themselves on hand-grenades. This is not how reform comes about. Careful
planning, preparation and timing all go into making effective change.

The tipping points often do require sacrifice but not impulsive sacrifice.

The names and acts we remember are often just one of numerous similar acts by
people who have practiced and prepared.

[https://www.theguardian.com/books/2008/oct/04/9](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2008/oct/04/9)

------
sngz
by not working for amazon

------
atlgator
Work with Amazon Robotics to automate them out of a job. It's only a matter of
time anyway.

------
3fe9a03ccd14ca5
Have we considered that maybe we should take a personal responsibility in
improving other people’s lives, rather than a corporate one?

Why not find a factory worker with a family and offer him or her a portion of
your salary?

------
SamWhited
You have two options: what Tim Bray did, or organize so that you have more
leverage. The second way is probably more effective (there are plenty of
developers willing to take over your comfy job at AWS who don't care about
anyone but themselves and having a cushy job, so unless a _lot_ of devs quit
they're not likely to care), but it's also the harder and longer way. The
Communication Workers of America do a great union organizers training, try
reaching out to them.

------
znpy
Try and get Amazon workers to unionize.

That might bring something.

------
sidcool
Might be an unpopular opinion, but HN may not be the best place to get advice.
HN is its own bubble of existence. I love it, and I trust its advice on
anything tech, but not something like this. It just isn't a core competency.
We tend to look at the world with extreme lenses, either banana republic or
absolute dictatorship.

------
silverreads
Buy them beer. If they are having trouble communicating among themselves then
meeting at some outside neutral location to discuss collective action is the
best thing they can do. Giving the bartender $500 for some drinks will sure
help make their gatherings more popular.

Once this virus business is no longer affecting bars that is.

------
birdlover
I would strongly encourage you NOT to quit. There will basically always be
people who take your place. Tech workers at Amazon have unique leverage to
change the company that no external groups do. I work at Amazon and I'd rather
you stay and fight the good fight!

------
lordy13
I've met other AWS software engineers who are asking themselves the same
question. If you want to organize chances are that lots of other people want
to do it as well. You should start off by talking to some of your coworkers.

------
smoyer
Without getting fired? ... you need to trust your coworkers and cripple
operations with a "blue flu" for a day or two. You (theoretically) can't get
fired for being sick but you'd better be pretty careful to organize this
anonymously.

------
matz1
The person you need to convince is Bezos, if you manage that, no other person
at amazon can can override it.

That being said, better working conditions is relative, I'm pretty sure amazon
warehouse working condition is better than working in factory in china.

------
evan_
Not that I'm advising you to do this but the most impactful thing you would be
able to do would be to use your access to find non-public information about
labor abuses etc. and leak it publically.

------
ForHackernews
Organize! Start a union! (or more likely, get illegaly fired by Amazon for
attempting to organize)

Find a lawyer first and be ready to go to the press & to court when they fire
you for union activity.

------
zouhair
Union. That's the only answer. Workers of any kind and level have little to no
leverage. Only a union can get that leverage.

------
chance_state
You should first recognize that you have virtually nothing on the line here.

You are part of an elite, high-income managerial class that is insulated from
pesky things like "working conditions". Sending an email to your manager or
liking a post on Facebook is meaningless.

If you're sincere you'll actually risk something to stand for your principles.
Demand that conditions meaningfully change or find employment at a place that
doesn't make the world a worse place to live.

------
sdinsn
Amazon pays their warehouse workers more than competitors. All the negative
reporting about them seem to ignore this fact.

------
DelaneyM
[https://www.shopify.ca/careers](https://www.shopify.ca/careers)

------
deeblering4
Line up a new job and resign along with respectfully explaining your
reasoning, ideally publicly.

------
kelvin0
This is how I read the 'real' question:
\---------------------------------------

"I am conflicted about recent Amazon events and the departure of a high level
executive.

However I do not have the same convictions and fortitude as Tim Bray. How can
I rationalize staying at Amazon without feeling bad about my decision?

I really like the : people I work with/pay/perks/other."

A bit harsh possibly.

~~~
jethro_tell
These things are complicated, being torn is what makes it an ethical decision.
He could just walk out of there and burn a bridge, and if he hates working
there that would be a lot easier.

His empathy is reflected in the difficulty of the decision and his situation
is likely different than Tim's. Lets not put people down because they are
looking for options before jumping.

------
heavyset_go
Solidarity through unionization.

------
dominotw
you can quit and write the reason in exit interview. I think thats most you
can do.

~~~
mjayhn
Beware, I have a feeling Amazon is one of those "if they say they wont rejoin
or recommend the company in their exit interview we won't allow them to be
rehired" companies.

------
mlthoughts2018
> Ideally without getting fired.

Well that’s not really possible. By definition “things that take a moralistic
stand against existing company practices” is equivalent to “fireable violation
of policy” - it’s Moral Mazes 101.

To be in good standing with a large bureaucratic employer is to either
explicitly agree or tacitly decline to disagree with the company’s existing
practices. Any deviation is defined as problematic behavior.

The only thing that will cause change is if Amazon is legally required to
change or else loses profits unless it changes - and in the latter case that
may not be enough because people already very rich may not value that lost
profit as highly as they value authoritarian control, sociopathic delight in
debasing other people, or just digging their heels in against external forces
mandating change.

It’s also unlikely that tech workers quitting will do much. Amazon can restaff
in a zillion different ways and at this point could hire more mediocre talent
and function in more of a maintenance mode and continue to be successful for a
long time.

~~~
jnbiche
> this point could hire more mediocre talent and function in more of a
> maintenance mode and continue to be successful for a long time

Eh, not sure about that. IBM went downhill fairly quickly once they stopped
getting the cream of the crop. Oracle was able to stave off problems for a
while, but only because of the lock-in issue. Amazon doesn't have the benefit
of lock-in (with the exception of some parts of AWS).

------
longtermd
Don't fight AWS nor Amazon. Instead use the money you earn there for good,
build your own "nonprofit" that does what you perceive to be good. Don't try
to change others or force them to your "ideology", esp. if it's the source of
income you depend on.

------
vladsanchez
Honestly, STFU or leave like Tim Bray! Join the ACLU! :D

------
sys_64738
I'd rather work for Facebook than AWS.

~~~
highprofittrade
Why?

~~~
sys_64738
Amazon is an evil company that exploits that exploits it’s employees in
factories. Facebook doesn’t.

------
a123b456c
Exercise your shareholder right to vote.

------
SirLJ
Don't be a schmuck, fight for their rights!

------
the_70x
more vacation days

------
yters
What are the bad working conditions? Someone showed me some petition signed by
8000 Amazon employees, but the petition was mostly about climate change, no
bad working conditions.

Is there somewhere these bad conditions are documented?

I think such clear, public documentation would go a long way to changing
conditions.

~~~
chance_state
Do you have access to google.com?

[https://nypost.com/2019/07/13/inside-the-hellish-workday-
of-...](https://nypost.com/2019/07/13/inside-the-hellish-workday-of-an-amazon-
warehouse-employee/)

[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/feb/05/amazon-
wo...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/feb/05/amazon-workers-
protest-unsafe-grueling-conditions-warehouse)

[https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/11/amazo...](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/11/amazon-
warehouse-reports-show-worker-injuries/602530/)

[https://time.com/5629233/amazon-warehouse-employee-
treatment...](https://time.com/5629233/amazon-warehouse-employee-treatment-
robots/)

~~~
TomMarius
This would be considered awesome conditions by most people around me (in CZ,
EU). It's common to work in horrific warehouses that sometimes don't even have
proper thermal/humidity control; having a clean, warm and structured place to
work, with OK wage on top of that, is a luxury to them.

~~~
stonogo
Are you arguing that Amazon workers should not have their working conditions
improved or that Czech workers need to unionize too? Or are you arguing that
Amazon should move fulfillment centers to Europe?

~~~
matz1
I think the argument is against the classification of "bad". Its not bad
compared to working condition in CZ.

------
quelsolaar
Create a logic bomb in the AWS servers that turn off all fans while
overloading the CPUs, at the same time as you make the servers send out false
reports saying that temperatures are normal. That will get their attention.

Why campaign, when you have the power to do something? If your not willing to
use the power you have, then I think you should quit and do something useful
with your life. Asking them to change, while still supporting them is
pathetic.

~~~
silverreads
Prison time?

