
German city wants to ditch Microsoft for Linux - darshansavla
https://androidrookies.com/this-german-city-wants-to-ditch-microsoft-for-linux/
======
axegon_
Iirc, the initiative in Munich was very impressive, with public servants being
taught how to file bug reports and whatnot. This is great news imo. Less
spending on proprietary software, more accountability, possibly job openings
for consultants. Good job Germany! I wish more countries would follow.

~~~
badRNG
Many countries are currently ditching Windows in favor of home grown distros
due to distrust of Microsoft. Notable examples:

Currently transitioning:

\- Astra Linux (Russia) [https://www.zdnet.com/article/russian-military-moves-
closer-...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/russian-military-moves-closer-to-
replacing-windows-with-astra-linux/)

\- Kylin Linux? (China) [https://www.techradar.com/news/china-to-ditch-all-
windows-pc...](https://www.techradar.com/news/china-to-ditch-all-windows-pcs-
by-2022-could-this-be-linuxs-time-to-shine)

\- South Korea [https://www.zdnet.com/article/south-koreas-government-
explor...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/south-koreas-government-explores-
move-from-windows-to-linux-desktop/)

Already transitioned:

\- Red Star OS (DPRK) [https://www.pcworld.com/article/2862737/meet-red-star-
os-the...](https://www.pcworld.com/article/2862737/meet-red-star-os-the-north-
korean-linux-distro-that-apes-apples-os-x.html)

\- Nova (Cuba) [https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/07/nova-os-new-release-
scre...](https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/07/nova-os-new-release-screenshots)

~~~
bananamerica
Is there really a need for them to create their own distributions?

~~~
unixhero
No. And it's a shame everyone does.

~~~
andai
I've been wondering about this. Competition breeds innovation and all that,
but in the end, aren't we ending up with a whole lot of repeated effort for
little benefit?

~~~
dewey
I guess it's a whole lot easier to repeat the effort (Even if it seems
wasteful) than getting multiple countries / governments / languages and
funding situations organized around one project.

Probably just easier to do it on your own and if at some point one of the
distributions is gaining some momentum maybe then others will adopt it and
send patches upstream.

~~~
bobthepanda
Keep in mind that the whole motivation of these is "we don't trust outside
group X"; these governments have no reason to believe that OSS isn't
compromised, and one of the easiest ways to know everything is to do a lot of
the work yourself.

------
zubspace
I may very well be part of a minority, but after working with Windows for the
last 20 or so years I got used to it's quirks. And yes, I actually like it.
Windows 10 on a Dell Latitude or XPS is stable, fast and I can run everything
under the sun. Office applications, very domain specific applications like the
Adobe suite, uncountable useful utility software, cross platform tools like
Gimp, Blender or Krita. And still there are many, many applications I
absolutely love which run on Windows only.

The half-baken "Flat UI" trend in Windows or the telemetry does not _really_
concern me. Really, it is no deal for me and my colleagues. Embrace, Extend,
Extinguish? Oh come on. I'm far more concerned about Microsoft losing against
other players. That's the world you should be afraid of.

The best thing about Windows though is Visual Studio. The general consensus
is, that it's slow, clunky and hard to use. But actually, that tool is so
utterly powerful, streamlined and deep, that every other development
environment I every used is missing something of its glory.

And I also love Linux in some ways. I used all different kinds of
distributions, either through dual-boot or through Virtualbox, but actually
the only thing I really use it for is server-side web-development. And well,
what can I say. I love the server side applications. But all those arcane
commandline wizardry and the configuration madness still irks me now and then.

But well, to return on topic: It's clear that I mostly work with clients,
which mainly use Windows. And there is a lot of software written for Windows
environments which can probably never be replaced by other software running on
Linux. The thing is, that the push of Microsoft to cross-platform .NET Core or
even cross-platform UI (MAUI) opens up those applications to other
environments. I'm not fully convinced, yet, but we'll see.

Sorry, for rambling. Just my thoughts.

~~~
H1Supreme
> But all those arcane commandline wizardry and the configuration madness
> still irks me now and then

I'll take this over the seemingly endless layers of GUI based configuration
screens that Windows servers use. A text based configuration file is much
easier to understand, and well, configure, imo.

~~~
alkonaut
I don’t think anyone wants to maintain windows servers. I have probably 5 or
so computers at home, counting various NAS’es and raspberries and such. Most
are Linux. All that have a screen however, are windows. A server I have to
configure. It’s doing some kind of job.

My desktop I just want to plug hardware into and see it work, and run
proprietary binaries without ever _configuring_ anything.

------
BossingAround
Again? I love Germany, but I honestly can't tell whether this is an old news
brought back to life, or whether it's a new story at a glance. Deja vu anyone?

~~~
lrem
I believe the root issue here is that Germany has more than one city.

~~~
AdmiralAsshat
This is exactly why Germany will never achieve widespread adoption. All the
citizens wish to go and form their own cities, reinventing the wheel and
duplicating effort. They should abandon all their smaller cities and focus
their resources on a single city.

~~~
longtom
What's the problem with duplicating effort?

~~~
MayeulC
I read your parent as making fun of the often-used argument against the
plethora of Linux distributions.

It's true that entering the Linux world is a bit like entering a shoe shop:
why can't they just make two versions, home and professional? ;)

~~~
em-bee
we also need summer and winter variants, and outdoor and indoor.

i'd like the summer outdoor casual all natural materials pair please.

~~~
MayeulC
I should have specified that they only come in one size at _that_ other shop
:)

------
remir
Windows, Office and Win Server (AD) make a combo that is quite difficult to
replace.

But if these cities are smart, they would pool their resources together to
fund common tools. All the bits and pieces are already here. What is needed is
a solid package that can be deployed and maintained easily, with user friendly
GUI.

~~~
chrisseaton
What is the big deal about AD? A directory of your employees? What's so
important about that? (I don't work in corporate IT I genuinely don't know.)

~~~
jandrese
AD allows admins to apply policy (settings) to every machine in the
organization at once. And to make sure the users don't change them. The
policies cover pretty much everything, and can be applied as strictly or
loosely as you want. There really isn't an equivalent for Linux. You can set
up Linux equivalents for bits and pieces of it, but the all in one solution
that you can just drop down on the network and hand over control to some 20
something fresh faced recruit straight out of college who has not been an
admin is not there. This is a huge use case for AD.

~~~
MayeulC
Well, I'm pretty sure there are some lesser known solutions out there. I've
just learned about `guix deploy` for instance, which could make such a thing
doable, and might be even easier to maintain in the long run. No pretty GUIs
for now, though, and it configuring a setup seems to require at least a good
understanding of guix/scheme.

Give it a bit more adoption, though, with more examples, snippets and tools,
and that specific solution could do wonders. This is often a problem in the
Open-Source world: little manpower, so works progresses slowly.

I'm pretty sure there are more (or less) obscure solutions.

[https://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/html_node/Invoking-
guix...](https://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/html_node/Invoking-guix-
deploy.html) [https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/towards-guix-for-
devops/](https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/towards-guix-for-devops/)

~~~
jandrese
This is an example of a tool that solves only a slice of the problem and
requires a wizard to operate it.

Plus, it doesn't seem well suited to changing configuration on already
deployed machines. If corporate comes and tells you all users must have their
machines configured to automatically lock the screen after 5 minutes idle and
enable some password requirements this tool would struggle.

~~~
MayeulC
I'm not really sure why the tool would struggle, it seems like it was made for
that use-case: running the command will ssh into each of the listed existing
machines, perform some basic sanity checks, upload the new configuration (and
packages in case of a system update), and finally atomically update the
symlink, thus applying the new policy.

I'll grant you that it seems to require a wizard to operate, or at least write
a tutorial and investigate that use-case, but so does most software: I would
be clueless in a AD environment, and it would take me a few hours to catch up
on some basic concepts.

Now, it hasn't been designed with your specific example in mind (it could have
been), so some wizard would most likely need to expose these knobs (lockscreen
timeout, password policy)as easily accessible config items.

------
madballster
IIRC, the initial Munich Linux Project ("Limux") from 2004 I think was
somewhat of a failure. They spent millions migrating dozens of different
Windows applications, but found that certain offices (e.g. the land registry)
kept using Windows applications for obscure hard-to-replace services and
databases, leading to friction.

Later they rolled back then entire migration just to re-announce a new Linux
migration more recently, see [https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-not-windows-
why-munich-i...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-not-windows-why-munich-
is-shifting-back-from-microsoft-to-open-source-again/)

~~~
bitcharmer
It failed in huge part due to Microsoft's dirty tactics:

[https://lwn.net/Articles/737818/](https://lwn.net/Articles/737818/)

~~~
dang
Discussed at the time:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15661372](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15661372)

------
officemonkey
From 2009:

[https://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2009/03/frenc...](https://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2009/03/french-police-saves-millions-of-euros-by-adopting-ubuntu/)

My favorite quote:

"Moving from XP to Ubuntu, however, proved very easy. The two biggest
differences are the icons and the games. Games are not our priority." \-- Lt.
Col. Guimard

------
felixr
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux#Timeline](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux#Timeline)
has the timeline of back and forth between Microsoft and Linux

~~~
andai
September 2016 - Microsoft moves its German headquarters to Munich[36]

February 2017 - Politicians discuss proposals to replace the Linux-based OS
used across the council with a Windows 10-based client.[37]

October 2017 - Once seen as a stalwart supporter of open source, the city
council last week said that running a Linux-based operating system on its PCs
would not be cost efficient in the long run.[38]

November 2017 - The city council decided that LiMux will be replaced by a
Windows-based infrastructure by the end of 2020. The costs for the migration
are estimated to be around 90 million Euros.[39]

May 2020 - Newly elected politicians in Munich take a U-turn and implement a
plan to go back to the original plan of migrating to LiMux.[40]

~~~
agustif
And that's pretty much the reason anything is not fixed/properly built in
government software or anything really, every 4 years scrap everything and
start from scratch is not sustainable

~~~
murermader
I guess the sad thing is that it really is sustainable, since taxpayers won't
stop paying taxes.

------
knowhy
The two parties forming the government of Hamburg made an agreement. Its here:
[https://www.spd-hamburg.de/fileadmin-
hamburg/user_upload/Koa...](https://www.spd-hamburg.de/fileadmin-
hamburg/user_upload/Koalitionsvertrag2020.pdf) The relevant section is on page
161. Most relevant is: \- base new software project on open protocols \-
"Design award procedures in such a way that we maintain and expand a broad mix
of manufacturers and suppliers - for this purpose, award procedures are
designed in such a way that all cooperation and business models (e.g. provider
communities of startups, open source offers and license models) be treated
equally." \- "In the new parliamentary term, the Hamburg citizenship has
decided to introduce a cloud-based system - Phoenix - based on the model of
Schleswig-Holstein via Dataport for all members of the parliament and
employees."

Dataport is a sort of state owned software company for Hamburg and some other
northern states. This appears to be the product:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpl0Xds1NMU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpl0Xds1NMU)

I couldn't find any open repos on the dataport website. Maybe I haven't looked
hard enough. But that doesn't look like the big Open Source revolution to me.

------
heisenbit
Much more important: Schools are moving to Office 365 in a rush in face of
Covid-19. There are data protection concerns but a crisis can shift priorities
so it seems.

~~~
panpanna
Right now we need an opensource teleconferencing system much more than an
opensource OS.

Edit: I think people recommending jitsi below misunderstood my comment

~~~
rapnie
Maybe BigBueButton, then?

[https://bigbluebutton.org/](https://bigbluebutton.org/)

~~~
murermader
My university is using BBB for its only lectures, and it has been great so far
(~2 months). I think it also is a self hosted solution, which is great.

------
orlovs
Each few years I see such post. Ditching one or another user facing OS in
relatively large and non-homogenous environment ends up as consultant feast
without significant impact. Problem is that that there are almost zero
alternatives to MS in client computing as platform, what works relatively out
of box. I dont speak about one piece, like Desktop os, but all togehther. Ofc
you can try glue together, but its jaegernautic task. Most likely you will
fail badly, because developing vertically integrated ecosystem of IT products
is hard. Even MS does on each 2nd iteration well. All talks about cost savings
are always non-sense, when you are serious customer even MS starts hearing
you. Ofc if you are all in oficey stuff, then of course your bargaining power
is almost zero. But if you try to use open standards and web based systems,
then you have got some leverage. Same is true about multicloud, it should be
used when bargaining with your cloud provider and you say: you know we can
leave in next 2(actually 200) months

~~~
orlovs
And even countries like Russia have got problems ditching MS. Their encryption
software works much better on win, then linux

------
shadowtree
Does Desktop OS matter anymore? So much is running in "browsers" now, even the
SpaceX astronaut controls were Electron.

The cloud provider is where it's at. AWS, Azure, GCloud ... and nothing from
Europe.

~~~
dunefox
Yes, it does. I don't want to have city documents in some cloud.

~~~
bostonpete
Why not? Seems unreasonable to expect that every city can manage their own
secure data store...

~~~
dunefox
Because very likely that would be another US company again. The whole point is
to become less reliant on US companies.

~~~
occamrazor
There are German cloud providers (DT, 1&1, Hetzner, Exoscale are the best
known)

------
unixhero
SkoleLinux needs an honourable mention.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skolelinux](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skolelinux)

~~~
andai
> The Skolelinux project was started on July 2, 2001. Twenty-five computer
> programmers and translators agreed to improve the use of software in
> education. They disliked that the next generation of computer users were not
> able to have access to source code, arguing that children who are interested
> should be able to learn from expert programmers to create their own
> software.

> A total of 214 schools using Skolelinux are currently listed on the
> DebianEdu Wiki. This case study[1] of implementing Skolelinux at a school in
> Greece is typical of user experiences.

[1] [https://schoolforge.net/education-case-study/skolelinux-
thin...](https://schoolforge.net/education-case-study/skolelinux-thin-client-
solution)

------
vainolo
Didn’t they try this already?

[https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/german-open-source-
expe...](https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/german-open-source-experiment-
things-not-going-plan)

[https://betanews.com/2012/12/11/one-german-city-drops-
openof...](https://betanews.com/2012/12/11/one-german-city-drops-openoffice-
for-ms-office-why-open-source-still-fails-to-impress/)

[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.techrepublic.com/google-
amp...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.techrepublic.com/google-
amp/article/end-of-an-open-source-era-linux-pioneer-munich-confirms-switch-to-
windows-10/)

------
LargoLasskhyfv
Vee vill succeed 'coz vee häff [https://www.dataport.de/who-we-
are/](https://www.dataport.de/who-we-are/)

 _Hugh!_

edit: Especially [https://www.dataport.de/was-wir-bewegen/portfolio/projekt-
ph...](https://www.dataport.de/was-wir-bewegen/portfolio/projekt-phoenix/)

disclaimer: No affiliation apart from being resident of said town.
[https://www.hamburg.com/residents/about/11853222/government/](https://www.hamburg.com/residents/about/11853222/government/)

------
Pxtl
Although isn't the OS kind of an afterthought now that everything is moving
into web applications? I mean, what does it matter what desktopOS you're using
if all your software is Office360 or Google Apps?

------
pelasaco
Munich migrated already once to Linux and then had to go back to Windows[1]

They are probably doing to put pressure on Microsoft license fees..

[1] [https://www.golem.de/news/von-microsoft-zu-linux-und-
zurueck...](https://www.golem.de/news/von-microsoft-zu-linux-und-zurueck-es-
gab-bei-limux-keine-unloesbaren-probleme-1911-144917.html)

------
frozenlettuce
I think that the greatest barrier to the adoption of OSS in administrative
circles are pivot tables. Once there's a strong open-sourced alternative in
this matter, or administrative folks learn to use databases, then the
transition will be much easier - we are almost there because many services are
web-centric and platform-agnostic already.

------
praveen9920
One of the major reasons organisations go with Microsoft is the support they
provide, although user's familiarity certainly plays another role as well

How does that work out in situations where Linux is adapted? Do they pickup a
distro which provides support?

------
skc
It's much easier to do now that pretty much everything has moved to the web.

It's actually impressive that Microsoft has been able to pivot to such an
extent that this news doesn't sound the death knell.

------
trekrich
Makes you wonder if Microsoft had conducted them selves better with Windows
10, then they might not have been looking at doing this. Windows 10 has been a
total mess.

~~~
rb808
source?

~~~
trekrich
erm any IT professional that has had to deploy windows 10 using MDT or SCCM?
The never ending new versions of Windows 10 that need to be deployed. Windows
10 should have been the LTSC version right out of the gate. None of that
chaffy Microsoft Store they are back peddling on. And all the other issues
that have came along since the OS release.

------
sn_master
"and better local control over the code powering the whole thing"

I am finding it hard to think the city would have engineers releasing their
own Kernel.

~~~
sn_master
Not sure why the downvites, but do cities really want to invest in software
engineers with enough background to analyze software patches, compile and
deploy them vs regular IT technicians who can do the same job at fraction of
the effort/salary and be replaced far more easily ?

I am genuinely curious why would someone think that's an advantage. Please
give some explanation atleast after the downvote.

------
motohagiography
Software is culture, and when you move users from a middle-manager and
bureaucracy-centric platform like Windows to a problem-solving power-tools
platform like a Linux, it's going to change the culture of the organization.
For the better I think, but the people this disadvantages will dig in hard.

~~~
zelly
You're right, Linux is a problem-solving power-tool. X11 breaks, you now have
a problem to solve. Your hardware will only work with a proprietary driver
that breaks on every kernel update--that's another problem to solve. What it
means to use Linux is to become really good at solving problems.

~~~
motohagiography
Since I've been downvoted, I will clarify. MSFT discourages competence in
users and is a workflow manufacturer for assembly lines. Its user interfaces
are designed to inculcate learned helplessness in their users. That company
will be remembered as the prime architect of an intellectual dark age. Its
business model is parasitic, its products are managerialism made real, and it
mainly facilitates business anti-patterns that bring suffering to millions of
people whose jobs depend on navigating them.

------
jtdev
I can't believe that Microsoft is still charging for Windows licenses...
convoluted licensing is in fact is one of the primary reasons that I've moved
away from Microsoft products and services.

~~~
rgblambda
For individual users who don't mind a small watermark on the screen ,the
inability to change their desktop background, or the inability to join the
windows insider program, it effectively is free. Granted, this doesn't apply
to orgs.

But yeah I don't see why they still charge for Home Edition licences. Surely
the focus should be on keeping people using Windows. It probably makes sense
in the short term to charge but more and more people are either moving away
from Windows or using unlicensed installs.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
> Surely the focus should be on keeping people using Windows

My impression from years of working with Windows 10 is that large parts of
Microsoft actually would prefer that people stop using Windows. Windows is a
_personal computer_ operating system, which means that the user is in control
of it, and the modern tech world abhors that notion. Case in point: they spent
_years_ trying to force updates with no user input.

------
stevebmark
Linux is a nightmare to maintain as an IT department for end users, especially
with hardware incompatibility problems and software availability. This is
clearly an unsubstantiated article based in speculation.

~~~
netjiro
Want data behind that statement. From what I've seen it is the other way
around.

Though I do not have significant data myself.

I did a transition for a company back around 2003. Total cost of transition
was a net saving already in the first year. Including training, my work, minor
new hardware, etc. A couple of their guys learned the systems maintenance
enough to take over my work, so I made myself redundant. Just like it should
be.

------
flowerlad
Meanwhile in Munch...

"German city of Munich, famous for rejecting Windows in favour of using Linux
on its PCs, will return to Windows after the move won the backing of the full
council."

Source: [https://www.techrepublic.com/article/end-of-an-open-
source-e...](https://www.techrepublic.com/article/end-of-an-open-source-era-
linux-pioneer-munich-confirms-switch-to-windows-10/)

~~~
netsharc
According to Wikipedia
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux) the
politicians decided last month to go back to Linux.

Apparently Ballmer visited Munich a lot trying to persuade the politicians to
stay/switch back to Windows, even moving Microsoft's German HQ to the city.

~~~
buovjaga
I think the timeline entry in Wikipedia is misleading. If you look at the
referenced ZDNet article, it has this:

"We're very happy that they're taking on the points in the 'Public Money,
Public Code' campaign we started two and a half years ago," Alex Sander, EU
public policy manager at the Berlin-based Free Software Foundation Europe,
tells ZDNet. But it's also important to note that this is just a statement in
a coalition agreement outlining future plans, he says.

"Nothing will change from one day to the next, and we wouldn't expect it to,"
Sander continued, noting that the city would also be waiting for ongoing
software contracts to expire. "But the next time there is a new contract, we
believe it should involve free software."

Any such step-by-step transition can be expected to take years. But it is also
possible that Munich will be able to move faster than most because they are
not starting from zero, Sander noted.

------
cjlovett
The title of this post is all wrong. Microsoft != Windows. Microsoft is so
much more. I also like Windows 10, they've done a good job, no more blue
screens. Windows Subsystem on Linux is the best thing Windows has done in
years and how not to love the new Terminal app. So go Windows! I also love the
fact that I can still run an unmodified Windows app that I wrote back in 1996.
Try doing that on any other platform!

