
My Struggle with American Small Talk - prostoalex
http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/my-struggle-with-american-small-talk
======
crazygringo
As an American who's lived extensively abroad, I still remain deeply confused
by the confusion around small talk.

Of _course_ I chat with the waitress or barista. She's a human being, she's
probably cute, I might be single, this is one of the ways you get dates! Or
just get to know someone -- everybody's interesting!

If it's a guy, of _course_ I'm curious where he's from, why he's here, what he
thinks of the place, what he recommends. People are fascinating and
everybody's story is unique.

I used to be far less social, and then I started to realize that these kinds
of interactions are one of the great pleasures in life. Even if you only
exchange five sentences, you can make a quick joke and share a moment of
connection.

There's nothing fake or insincere or dishonest about it at all. It doesn't
matter if you're being served or serving someone else, it's just always more
pleasant to treat someone else as an interesting human being and be treated as
one in return.

~~~
sitharus
As a non-American who's interacted a lot with Americans I'm still confused
about small talk with people serving you.

Why would a barista (/waitress/waiter/any other serving staff) be interested
in you? They serve hundreds of people a day and are most interested in taking
your order as fast as possible. They have other people to serve, taking up not
only the time of the barista but also the time of those other people is just
rude.

The best way to treat someone as a human is acknowledging their task and being
polite.

Funny thing is I've observed more Americans being downright rude to people
than others, but that's probably the people I've met more than a general
thing.

Of course it's completely different if you interact with people for more than
5 minutes.

~~~
crazygringo
> _Why would a barista ( /waitress/waiter/any other serving staff) be
> interested in you? They serve hundreds of people a day and are most
> interested in taking your order as fast as possible._

You sound like someone who's never worked one of these jobs.

Because if you'd had, you'd know very well that being friendly and chatting
with the customers is the best part of the job, the _only_ part that's
actually interesting, and what gets you through your day. Why _wouldn 't_ they
be interested in you?! The best customers are the ones who feel like friends,
even if you never see them again. They're fun! The worst customers are the
ones who, as you say, "acknowledge your task" and otherwise treat you like a
serving robot.

Sure, if you're pulling coffees in morning rush hour, or serving drinks on a
Friday night at 9pm, then it's rude to hold up the line of course. But except
for peak hours, you're not taking up _anyone 's_ time -- to the contrary,
you're making their time worthwhile, and as long as you're being genuine then
it's roundly appreciated.

~~~
sitharus
On the contrary, you sound like someone who's only worked these jobs in
countries that expect small talk.

It's all about what you expect. The US culture values small talk and makes
affordances for that. Other cultures do not.

Neither is right or wrong here. Neither is better. They are just different.

~~~
crazygringo
Of course. Since we're talking about making small talk in the US, I was giving
the server perspective in the US. :)

------
mmmBacon
Small talk is not pretend friendship nor insincerity. It's a ritual that
attempts to get people to be _friendly_ to each other. Being friendly is not
the same as being a person's friend.

The purpose of being friendly in a business context is to smooth interactions
between people who do not otherwise know each other. It's much more difficult
to be nasty to someone if they've been nice to you. Also many of us here find
transactions are more pleasant when people are friendly. You don't dread going
back to a place if people are friendly.

Plus when you have a service job, a brief and pleasant conversation with a
stranger can help you deal with the drudgery of the job. It's an awfully long
day spending 8 hours cashiering when you act like a robot all day.

In any case, some Americans and many Europeans seem to misunderstand (despite
their insistence to the contrary) the function of small talk here and
incorrectly interpret it as insincerity.

------
andrewl
Small talk in any culture should not be taken literally or analyzed too
deeply. When a cashier says "How are you?" the standard response is "Fine
thanks, and you?" It doesn't matter if neither of you really cares. I've read
people decrying the insincerity of the interaction. It's just a ritual that's
not completely logical, like most rituals. All cultures have illogical
rituals. I wouldn't spend much time analyzing them.

In some parts of the English West Country, a common greeting is "Alright my
lover?" Don't assume the person addressing you as his or her lover is offering
sex, and don't assume that they're being insincere when it turns out they're
not. They're acknowledging your presence with the local idiom.

Similarly, in some parts of China they say "have you eaten yet?" as we say
"how are you?" I don't think it's appropriate to answer with a description of
what you had for breakfast and lunch that day. You probably just say "Yes, did
you?"

~~~
dboreham
Lived in Bristol for a few years so that takes me back!

------
vanderZwan
Reminds me of this interview[0] by two American women with a Finnish man about
Finnish sauna culture, taken _inside a sauna_.

Specifically, the part where the guy switches the interview around and asks
the girls what they think about the culture of silence that the Finns have.
After which they admit that it is a struggle both to shut up for them as well
as not feel awkward when Finns are silent around them.

[0] [https://medium.com/the-politics-practices-and-poetics-of-
ope...](https://medium.com/the-politics-practices-and-poetics-of-
openness/conversations-from-the-sauna-on-privacy-openness-nudity-and-coming-
together-abeff0f2530a#.ibns3kbgo)

~~~
Thimothy
Hahaha!! That brings memories! I never had many problems with the Finnish
silence treatment, as I've always been kind of introvert, but man, did I love
seeing more extroverted people struggling with your typical frowned group of
Finnish, digging themselves in a deep hole talking.

There was this guy, who had to expend most of his time with Finnish people,
that ended the year completely paranoid about how every Finnish hated him.
Lack of sun can do funny things to your head.

------
onion2k
As a British person I find it exceptionally annoying to meet someone who I
_know_ doesn't want to be at work in their retail or service job who pretends
to be pleased to see me. The insincerity of the small talk is horrible. I
would rather have an honest interaction even if that means getting bad service
than be lied to.

~~~
tacostakohashi
Claiming to "know" what another person is thinking is presumptuous and silly.

This attitude is predicated on the idea that people working in retail or
service jobs are doing so because they've failed to achieve some other thing,
and must therefore be miserable. The truth is far more varied and complicated
- for many young people, they're probably just doing it while they study, or
actors waiting tables until the next role, and are picking up some great
people skills in the process. Even if they're not studying towards something
more academic, if they're good at what they do, they'll end picking up good
skills, building a relationship with the owner, and taking over the business
one day, starting a competing business, or getting recruited by a customer or
supplier.

Of course, some people probably really don't want to be at their retail or
service job, but it's not like every programmer, doctor, or pilot loves every
minute of their job either.

I think the American custom of being nice to people working in service jobs is
goes hand in hand with the prospect of social mobility. Retail and service
workers are not from an inferior underclass destined to do that their whole
lives - since they might end up owning the place or being your boss, or hiring
your children one day, it's best to start building a cordial relationship
today.

~~~
jdietrich
>I think the American custom of being nice to people working in service jobs
is goes hand in hand with the prospect of social mobility.

Unless social mobility is a reality, then that's just a cruel trick on the
working class. "Temporarily embarrassed millionaires" and all that.

~~~
WalterSear
Absolutely. The parent is painting an unrealistic, rosy picture of the service
economy and its employees.

------
analog31
If it's any consolation, I'm an American, and I don't like the small talk
either. The barber always wants to know what my kids are up to. Everybody
wants to know my plans for the weekend. I usually make something up.

On the other hand, I'm always cheerful, and I say "thanks" to people, because
I know that being a service worker is a pretty tough job.

~~~
extra88
It's a big relief that at the barber shop I go to, the guys I usually get
recognize I'm not interested in chatting. I see them chat with other people
but not an excessive amount. Going in the morning before work may help keep it
to a minimum.

------
scotty79
> On a day that I don’t spend money in America, I feel oddly depressed. It’s
> my main form of social interaction—as it is for millions of Americans who
> live alone or away from their families.

That's very interesting observation.

~~~
jschwartzi
Spending money in the US is poetic, because it's symbolic of how we're all
intertwined with each other through our labor. Participation in the economy
here is a social act as much as it is a necessity. That's one reason people
get so upset at the idea of welfare. I think they feel threatened by the idea
of a separate class of people who don't participate in the social ritual of
commerce in the same way that they do.

~~~
fucking_tragedy
The publicized objections to welfare in America from politicians over the
decades have been dog-whistle hold overs from the Souther Strategy era. The
"welfare queen" with a Cadillac and six kids stereotype was pushed because it
played on the idea of a _black person_ living it up on _my_ money.

Unsurprisingly, welfare states that exist in homogenous cultures are seen as
fairer by participants. Take a look at Scandinavia.

------
hluska
I'm Canadian and went to a Canadian University with a pretty good ESL program.
Having grown up in an RCMP family, I knew all about being the new kid and
ended up volunteering fairly regularly with the ESL program.

Taking people (particularly those from China) shopping in Canada was always
fun. I'd make the standard small talk:

(How's it going? Good, how about you? Good, loving/hating the weather?? Oh
yeah, it's cold/hot/windy).

And, inevitably, my poor charges would be standing behind me, rapidly trying
to write down the exchange. I had three big problems:

\- explaining why I went through the ritual at every stop.

\- explaining why the weather is so important.

\- explaining what 'how zit going' means.

Turns out that enunciating is not my biggest strength...:)

------
nkrisc
Of course my view is probably biased by the fact I'm an American, but I do not
think the small talk friendliness is at all false or insincere. Yes, the
interactions are fleeting but the friendliness and politeness is real as being
polite and friendly to other people makes me feel good and I feel good when
others show me the same.

Sure, I may never see them again, but that doesn't mean our small interaction
wasn't a genuine moment. We'll never be friends with everyone but that doesn't
mean we can't be nice to them.

Lastly, I noticed somewhat the same in my limited time in Central America as
well. I spent a good deal of time in Costa Rica and less time in Nicaragua and
Panama. I thought people there were very friendly and chatty as well,
especially in smaller towns. Perhaps it was because I was a foreigner but I
spoke pretty good Spanish and had many interesting conversations with
strangers.

~~~
int_19h
The reason why we (I'm not an American) know that it's largely insincere, is
because we've taken it to be sincere and treated it as such at some point -
and got a very confused reaction when we have given a genuine response to a
question such as "how are you?". As soon as you veer off the established
ritual, all that small talk friendliness disappears pretty quickly.

------
theyeti
As an Asian male new to the Bay Area, this has been something that I can
relate too. At workplace and coffee shops, restaurants and almost any place,
I've struggled to answer the question "How're you doing ?". The author
summarizes it quite well.

~~~
mwfunk
You're not expected to answer the question, just say "not bad" or "pretty
good" and move on.

~~~
int_19h
Indeed. The problem is that it's kinda hard to make yourself do it and not
come off as insincere when you're not culturally conditioned to do so from a
very early age. You can learn, but it still requires a conscious effort.

------
Mendenhall
It is interesting to read all these different takes on it. I dont mind small
talk as long as the person doesnt drone on about things etc. I am always
"polite" to people in service jobs because I really appreciate good service, I
think its somewhat rare and hard to do day in and day out.

I have a lot of empathy and am a good judge of someones mood etc so I am
"good" at small talk. Something unexpected or a compliment or some such thing
can go a long way.

I will often say off the wall responses to "how are you doing?" if the
circumstance seems right. "I think I am doing well but I could be dying of
something and not know it"

I view small talk as a chance to sharpen your people skills, can you effect
someones mood for the better with a few short words? I find that skill comes
in handy in all sorts of work/life environments.

After not saying anything to bartender for like half hour or so, I said "I am
going to have to complain to your manager because you are working too hard and
its making me tired just to watch watch you." After about 2 months I went back
to same bar and bartender remembered me and said "I havent seen you in a long
time I thought I scared you away by working too hard" and I got a free drink
:)

------
theoblt
This sounds all too familiar, as a European. Friendship without intimacy is
definitely big in the US.

~~~
allendoerfer
Yep, I am from the West but not from the US and think this quote from the
article is not correct:

    
    
        In the East, I’ve heard it said, there’s intimacy without friendship;
        in the West, there’s friendship without intimacy.
    

This is not about the East and the West, it's distinctively US-American.

~~~
htaunay
In Brazil the small-talk culture is also strongly present. I can't speak for
all places in the US, but definitely more than NY. I also was able to notice
the same type of behavior in Venezuela, Uruguay and Peru.

Maybe West could be replaced by West-of-the-Atlantic?

------
dredmorbius
Language and speech are metaphor. They occur within a social context. That
social context is, well, _contextual_ to the society you're in.

Societies, customs, habits, practices, mores, _morals_ , are relative. They
change with place and time. Practices accepted now, or here, are discouraged,
or taboo, previously or elsewhere. Those rejected now, or here, were accepted
or required previously or elsewhere.

Language and social interactions have meanings at multiple levels. Ford
Prefect's observation about human chatter in _The Hitchhiker 's Guide to the
Galaxy_, ultimately concluding it doesn't have a specific reason, it just
_is_.

Small-talk is social lubricant. It _can_ be a source of pleasure (or
frustration) for service workers (I've been one, it was mostly pleasure), and
if well-intended, definitely helps make the day go by better. It's not always
appropriate, and reading the response helps a lot. I've made my own
misjudgements as both customer and staff.

But done well, it's quite welcomed.

------
mwfunk
Preface: I hate small talk as much as anyone, in part because I'm terrible at
it, but also because I just fundamentally don't enjoy conversing for the sake
of conversing.

Having said that, I've worked with a lot of non-Americans, many of whom
inevitably notice (and try to adapt to) differences in social conventions
between where they came from vs. the US. They often perceive those differences
as being much more extreme and stark than they actually are.

Let's be clear: no one is under any sort of social obligation to actually make
small talk with anyone. Yes, there are some really extroverted people who have
to exchange life stories with the people they're sitting next to on a flight.
Yes, there are some really extroverted people who feel obligated to exchange
life stories with every barista or waiter they deal with. Yes, there are some
really extroverted people who feel obligated to exchange life stories with
random strangers who happen to be standing next to them in line at the bank or
the grocery store or at a bus stop. Those aren't people to emulate, those
people are freaking annoying. Their behavior isn't based on conforming to a
social norm that everyone who sets foot in America is bound by. That's what
this article sounds like, somebody who made friends with overly chatty people
and has convinced himself that that is simply how things are done in America,
and that cannot be farther from the truth.

On the other hand, there are some slight subtleties to be aware of, and every
single one of them can be dealt with by applying just the teeniest whiff of
politeness and geniality. Seriously, that's all that it is. Yes, the
hallway/breakroom/elevator exchange of "How's it going?/Not bad,
yourself?/Pretty good!/Well, see you later!" happens all the time. Yes,
there's an element of BS to it because you probably don't actually want the
other person to delineate every aspect in which "it" is "going". But that's
all. It's social ritual, it's not actually small talk. It's more like an
extended greeting. You could use such an exchange as a launching point for a
longer discussion, but neither party is under any obligation to do so, or to
stick around for it if one person does actually want to vent about their day.
It's just a longer way of saying "hi" to a colleague.

Likewise, if you go to a restaurant and place your order in a low commanding
monotone to the server while in unblinking stoneface mode, and never say
"thank you" for anything, it may be perceived as rude, although sadly that
describes > 50% of most service workers' interactions with customers on any
given day so it's hardly unheard of. Really there are no expectations for
social interaction, but you can ensure that there is never any awkwardness or
perceived rudeness by applying the tiniest modicum of geniality. Meaning, a
slight flash of a smile, maybe some very brief eye contact, maybe a little nod
and a "thank you" when they do something for you. That's it. No need to do any
of the things the author of this article thinks you need to do in order to not
be seen as being rude in America. If you force yourself to be chatty and
extroverted when you don't want to be, it'll just make things awkward for
everyone. It's not something to aspire to, and it certainly isn't something
that's expected of you. The only expectation is people treat one another with
respect and no one treats anyone else like a servant or a socioeconomic
inferior even when those things are true.

It goes both ways- the world is full of different cultures with different
norms, and anytime you go someplace with different norms you may be perceived
as being rude if you aren't aware of those norms. Respecting personal space is
another one that stands out. I've worked and studied with people from parts of
Asia where it's perfectly normal to walk down the street with someone while
standing so close together as to almost touch (or actually touch). In America
the social norm is to always respect other peoples' personal space and to keep
at least a little distance from the other person. If two people have different
ideas about personal space based on growing up with different social norms,
who is being rude in this situation? I would say that neither person is, it's
just a misunderstanding. However, when I travel abroad I always make an effort
to do a little research into what the social norms are in the place that I'm
going to. The internet makes this trivial nowadays.

------
dboreham
Interesting. I'm originally British (almost true Scotsman) but lived in a
metro US area for years then moved to a small town.

I find that in the small town scenario, where I actually know the waiters,
store checkers, bar tenders etc, the small talk is much the same as in
Britain: "How's your day?"; "Can't complain, could be worse".

Conclusion is that the fakey US small talk is fake even for natives.

------
mtVessel
For his next project, he should learn how to end an essay.

