
Why My Father Hated India - watchandwait
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304911104576445862242908294.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read
======
DanielBMarkham
One of the things that consistently puzzle me is how different cultures handle
change.

Over the past 150 years, the world has seen all kinds of terrible wars,
killing hundreds of millions of people and causing all sorts of hatred and ill
will.

Some of these cultures get up, dust themselves off, and go on -- sometimes
achieving greatness. Other cultures, sometimes with far less injustice done
(if you can measure these things, which I doubt) carry grudges seemingly
forever.

Even in personal relations, I've known people in the states who suffered
terribly by some criminal, only to have them forgive the criminal and move on
with their lives. On the other hand, there are those who suffered the same
thing who carry hatred in their heart until they die.

I remember seeing a person on TV from Jerusalem. They were talking about how
their great-great grandfather lived in a house but was evicted by the
Israelis. And how angry they were about it all. I could see that this was
really bothering them.

Hell, if I spent my time emoting over wrongs my entire ancestry both committed
and suffered through, I wouldn't have much left of a life left.

Why the difference? That's above my pay grade -- hence the reason I find it so
fascinating. I can unequivocally say, however, that hating someone or some
culture is a fool's game that hurts the hater much more than the object of
hatred. There is a terrible strain of nihilism alive in the world. So many
lives wasted by it. Very sad.

~~~
known
Harvard Professor Robert Putnam's study showed that the more racially diverse
a society is, the lower the levels of trust.
[http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/t...](http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/)

~~~
carbocation
Is there some empirical measure of "the degree to which someone should
actually be trusted," and if so, are the racially diverse societies less
trustful than they should be, or are the racially homogeneous societies moreso
than they should be?

~~~
known
I believe _Trust but verify_ is the best alternative.

~~~
jodrellblank
I don't quite see how this is different from "say you trust, but act as if you
don't", aka "don't trust, but lie about it".

~~~
known
Trust but verify = Make an informed decision

------
jkic47
The article was unexpectedly heart wrenching to read. India takes its very
name from the Indus valley that lies in Pakistan, while the most famous
example of Islamic architecture is the Taj Mahal in India. It is sad watching
the two countries' governments waste time, energy and lives in a conflict that
is essentially at a stalemate.

~~~
kloncks
Absolutely agree. Too many conflicts come from sides that focus on their few
differences rather than their many similarities.

This is coming from an Egyptian who realizes that Israelis (and Jews) aren't
so different from my Arab Muslim self.

Now, if only more people agreed.

~~~
netcan
It's interesting that you bring us (Israelis) up in this context. About ten
years ago I was talking to a Pakistani who proudly said to me that Israel and
Pakistan are the two "homeland states." I had never thought about that.

Anyway, if you want agreement, I can offer one vote.

------
scarmig
I'm torn about this. India is a much more pluralistic society, and Pakistan is
a failed state. But one of the points made early on in the article makes it
seem as if the Partition was entirely Pakistan's idea, and the hundreds of
thousands (millions?) of people who died were all innocent Hindus being
slaughtered at the hands of murderous Muslims. "But violence erupted, and it
quickly became clear that in the new homeland for India's Muslims, there would
be no place for its non-Muslim communities. Pakistan and India came into being
at the cost of a million lives and the largest migration in history." Which is
far from the reality; it was a clusterfuck all around, and communal violence
was the rule of the day on both sides of the partition line.

It wasn't just Muslims in the 30s who called for two separate states. Many
Hindus did too. It's true, the most prominent Hindu in the struggle (Gandhi)
wanted a single state and tried to (in theory, at least) accommodate the large
Muslim minority. For those efforts he was assassinated by a religious
extremist.

Of course, you hear religious extremist and you might assume it was some
Muslim who thought Gandhi was too effective a voice for unity. To the
contrary, it was a Hindu nationalist who thought Gandhi was a sellout to the
Muslims.

This strain of Hindu nationalism that endorses the use of violence has
appeared again and again. As recently as 2002 a riot occurred in which a Hindu
mob murdered around a thousand Muslims.

All this isn't to say the Muslims on the subcontinent are all paragons of
virtue and liberalism. They aren't. But the story the author tells is just a
pleasant story, meant to appeal to the baser instincts of Wall Street Journal
readers. Maybe more than that, it's a story meant to appeal to India's own
self conception, where it's as pure as snow and it's those dastardly
Pakistanis who've made everything terrible.

~~~
null_para
Who says there are no extremists in Hinduism? Every religion has its fair
share.

And its true our neighbor is a failed state and made everything terrible.
Given a choice about living in India or any of our neighbors, everyone will
choose India. Because we are pluralistic society where every religion is
respected, which is not true about our neighbor!

And this article doesn't appeal India's self conception, this article speaks
reality!

------
qasar
Being a Pakistani (and Punjabi) American myself, I do not agree with some of
the views the author puts forward.

First, Pakistanis do define themselves primarily as 'non-Indians'. However,
the view that Pakistan has somehow carved out a new identity is the past 60
years is false. 5,000 years of shared heredity, language, customs and
political history don't shake off that easily. Even Pakistanis and their
relationship to religion is very similar to Indian Hindus and their
relationship to Hinduism. Just as there are extremist groups in Pakistan,
there are extremist Hindus in India. Pakistani's are more Indian that they
want to believe and vice versa - especially if you live in the West where the
two groups meld together indistinguishably.

The second point I disagree with is that minorities left only Pakistan
(because of communal violence). History shows that there was a reciprocal
exodus of Indian Muslims to Pakistan. Communal violence is one of the defining
aspects of the sub continent.

Lastly, many of the poets, philosophers and British bureaucrats did predict
one thing correctly - being a minority in a Hindu majority India ultimately
would have a ruinous effects on Indian Muslims - formerly some of the most
educated and economically prosperous citizens of India. South Asian culture is
one of rabid communalism and today Indian Muslims are less educated, less
wealth and less politically represented than in any part of India's long
history.

Sometimes I wonder what impact it would have had on both sides of the border
if the new nation had been called "West India".

~~~
indian_m
Could not resist, creating a throw away account, just for replying to a topic,
which is very close to my heart.

About me: I am a liberal in world view, but a practicing Muslim. And not
nationalistic, but love India and what it represents.

Brother, your note is well thought out and well meaning. The idea of a "West
India" is very novel. And it appeals to me. But at the same time, I would like
to give a sense to you of what its like to be an Indian Muslim of the upper
class, in response to your "...being a minority in a Hindu majority India
ultimately would have a ruinous effects on Indian Muslims".

On Prejudice: It will be a falsity to say, that there is no prejudice at all.
As obviously India is not a utopia. But also, suffice to say, that the
majority of the people (and that would naturally be more Hindus than others)
one encounters in life are very secular and welcoming. And by and large India
is a meritocracy. The Muslims suffer more, because of their own backward
cultural mind set than anything else. For example, lots of relatives who are
not doing well in life would complain about prejudice in job selections, etc.
for not doing so well in life. But its very apparent to me, that the fault
lies more with their attitudes towards life - not wanting to put enough hard
work.

On Government/Establishment's attitude to secularism: I am actually utmost
thankful, to the founding fathers of the nation like Gandhi and Nehru, that
they did not cast the nation as a tit-for-tat reflection of the way Pakistan
was founded. By and large, India is a secular nation, and that notion is oft
repeated and maintained by media, politicians and the like. I can safely say,
that being a Muslim in India is perhaps 1000 times better than being a Hindu
in Pakistan.

On representation of Muslims in various domains: There are countless examples:
To cite a few random people: in the business world Azim Premji (founder of
Wipro) is one of the most respected. The bollywood is totally dominated by the
Khans (so much so that one popular movie 'The Wednesday' had a joke on a Hindu
actor belonging to the 'minority' hence needing more protection). Sports:
India is Cricket Crazy, like Pakistan, and in the past few years, 2-3 Muslims
have been making the 11 (which is more than the %age of Muslim population in
India). And since I am randomly giving examples, I can as well cite myself (a
hacker news reading, tech geek, aspiring to change the world (at least India)
using programming ...think we will all agree is not any less of an aspiration
than aspiring to be a movie star :-) )

In fact I would go ahead and say, that had Pakistan not being created, the
position of Muslims in the region, would have been all the more stronger. Even
after creation of Pakistan on the basis of religion, by and large Muslims are
very welcome in a pluralistic society that India is. So what if, if the poet
Iqbal, had dreamt that dream of his a bit more inclusively.

But yes, things can be better. There is a right wing here as well (liberal
Americans should immediately think of GOP), and they want to pander to the
extremists sentiments and every decade or so things get out of hand (most
recent being Gujarat 2002). So yes, honestly, there are problems.

I think, the model for India, for establishing a just and civil society
within, should be like that of the USA. America has a history of committing
mistakes, Slavery and the treatment of the black people. But they came out of
it so strongly within such a short period of time. Thanks partly to great
people like Martin Luther King.

So India, also has a choice. Just like every nation has a choice all the time.
By and large it has done very well. But it needs to keep doing well.

And lastly, I wish, you Pakistanis also all the best. Peace.

Edit: Fixed a grammar error.

~~~
known
Patriotism/Pakistan/Muslims are the tools/tricks used by the Forward caste to
manipulate & use 80% Indians viz BC/SC/ST/Minority communities.

~~~
dimmuborgir
Manipulate minorities by using Pakistan? What are you even talking about?

~~~
known
You seem to be blinded by hatred towards Muslims. Minorities include Muslims,
Christians, Anglo-Indians and Sikhs.

British gave Autonomy to Minorities in 4th August 1932 Round Table Conference.
But Gandhi manipulated, used and betrayed them.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communal_Award>

------
g123g
Very good and balanced article overall. The hatred of each other has become so
deep rooted in both the countries and the mutual suspicion so strong that it
is too late that the relationship can be changed. But we still owe it our next
generation to work towards peace so that the wealth that belongs to them does
not get spent in keeping up the needless hostility. We cannot let the past
ruin the lives of the poorest people in the world who live in this region. It
is time for the Pakistani people to call a spade a spade. They cannot take
refuge anymore in the filmsy excuses and their needless obsession with Kashmir
anymore. If they don't do anything now and continue to behave as they have
done till now for the last 60 years, it will be too late. Pakistan as a nation
is literally on its last breath and it needs an immediate shock treatment by
its own people if it wants to survive. India will continue to grow and survive
but it is Pakistan whose survival at stake. If Pakistani people continue to
behave like ostriches with their heads in sand, then they will have only
themselves to blame and not any of their make believe enemies like US or
India.

~~~
akshaykarthik
I am Indian, and have lived in India for most of my life. I have been to
nearly every state (all except Kashmir, and Oyra) and everywhere I go, it
always seems like the Pakistanis' hatred is the most prevalent one. One thing
I can assure you is that, despite the appearance of all of this hatred, all
the Indian teens I have met have no hatred for our neighbor but rather wish
the fighting would stop.

Since I moved to the United States, I have had several Pakistani friends who
voice the same opinions. There is no tension between the youth of the two
countries (except during the Cricket World Cup).

The problem is that a government full of conservative, short-sighted
politicians in India, and a government, influenced by religion, blinded by
hatred in Pakistan can not seem to work out their differences.

Even if the consensus among Indians and Pakistanis' is to stop the fighting,
not much can be done until the current regime is changed ( mostly in Pakistan
).

The US's problem is that publicly, they must support Pakistan despite having
no real part in the conflict between the two nations ( further increasing
tensions on both sides).

~~~
nodata
tl;dr you're an Indian, you say that it's mostly the Pakistanis' fault.

Why does "fault" matter at all? One approach to conflict resolution is to
admit both parties are at fault, and to agree that they are both
_equally_at_fault_.

Or.. squabble forever about who is more to blame.

------
zmanji
Has there ever been a case where defining yourself as a negative of something
resulted in a success?

~~~
iqster
We Canadians pride ourselves as not being Americans ;-)

------
sharjeel
Most of the people calling it off-topic are being downvoted. So let me refer
to the HN Guidelines:

What to Submit

On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes
more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the
answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're
evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters,
or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-
topic.

------
digamber_kamat
I think rest of the world should stop mirroring India with Pakistan. There is
hell lot of difference between these two countries. India is developing fast,
its diverse, secular and no threat to global peace. Pakistan on other hand is
a failed state.

------
Cherian_Abraham
"Resentment is like drinking poison and then hoping it will kill your
enemies." — NelsonMandela

------
anxrn
This article is timely, in light of (yet another) terrorist attack on Mumbai
by allegedly Islamic militants. I'm going to go out on a limb here and claim
that this attack is only the latest in a long bloody series of consequences of
Partition.

The history of armed communal militancy, both Hindu and Muslim, began with the
Kashmir movement in the late 80's; this itself was a side-effect of Partition.
This was the first time communal tension took on a decidedly dark tone with
armed militants entering the picture. Since then, things have only become
worse, with the Pakistan establishment actively supporting and arming anti-
India militants and Hindu nationalists in India attempting to derail any
possibility of reconciliation by repeated acts of religious intolerance. The
current situation vis-a-vis Mumbai is quite pathetic, with politicians falling
over each other to get a quote out; and the people of Mumbai developing a
horrible sense of resigned apathy, touted regularly as 'resilience'.

What is the solution? I don't know. (War, of course, is guaranteed to always
be the wrong answer). A reasonable answer, as always, is economics. If the
economies of both countries improve, the resulting improved education and
decrease in poverty might provide a solution. India seems to be on the right
track here; Pakistan, not so much.

------
paulnelligan
I found this article extremely interesting. If you haven't watched the
'beating retreat ceremony' video, make sure you do, it's one of the most
bizarre things I've ever seen.

~~~
copper
It's actually rather fun to watch in person, though I can understand why you
think it's bizarre. It's, as far as I can see, really ceremonial - though it
remains a big deal for the security forces personnel involved.

------
vamsee
Interesting, but not relevant.

~~~
product50
It doesn't get upvoted and be featured on the top page of Hacker News if
people are not finding it useful. Hacker News is not a website to be defined
by you on what is interesting and what is relevant. You are just one of
thousands of people visiting this site and it will stay like that - if you
find that non-interesting, it is irrelevant.

~~~
vamsee
Oh, why the venom? I'm an Indian, and I personally found it interesting
(though it tells me nothing new) but I find it irrelevant to what HN is. Like
I mentioned in the reply above, geo-political news is irrelevant to HN
discussion unless it has a direct bearing upon startups/programming. I miss
the link here.

~~~
dimmuborgir
I don't see what the fuss is about. A lot of seemingly offtopics have been
discussed on HN recently. Like, Japan earthquakes, Osama Bin Laden death,
Egypt/Libya civil wars etc.

~~~
burgerbrain
Yes, that is why the fuss. Some of us do not appreciate the trend.

------
rajpaul
this conflict is a waste of human capital. i hope the fog of ignorance is
lifted very soon and the desire for profit brings people together.

------
known
Pakistan(83) is a better nation to do business than India(134)
<http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings>

------
known
During Indo-Pak partition in 1947 the agreement is that all Muslim majority
regions should be merged with Pakistan and all Hindu majority regions should
be merged with India.

India betrayed by annexing Muslim majority Kashmir and Hyderabad.

UNSC passed multiple resolutions since 1948 advising India, Pakistan & China
to give Independence to Kashmir, Tibet & Aksai Chin.

Obsession with Kashmir is burning rest of the India.

~~~
dimmuborgir
You're a _known_ troll who puts baseless comments on every India related
posts.

India didn't betray Kashmir. The king of Kashmir (Hari Singh) was a Hindu and
wanted Kashmir to be an independent country. But Pakistan wanted Kashmir, so
it funded insurgents against Kashmir. When the Kashmir king couldn't face
them, he sought India's military help. India agreed on the condition that
Kashmir should be annexed to India.

The UN resolution says that India should conduct a free and fair election in
the _entire_ Kashmir to know what Kashmiris want (self determination). But for
that, Pakistan should surrender its Pakistan-Administered-Kashmir to India and
China should surrender Aksai Chin (if it has any population).

Obsession with Kashmir is burning Pakistan more than India.

~~~
known
You're trying to fabricate the truth. _When the Kashmir king couldn't face
them, he sought India's military help_ is not true.

Maharaja appealed to _Lord Mountbatten_ and not to India.
[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Kashmir#Year_...](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Kashmir#Year_1947_and_1948)

In the last days of 1948, a ceasefire was agreed under UN auspices, but since
the _plebiscite demanded by the UN was never conducted_ , relations between
India and Pakistan soured,[32] and eventually led to two more wars over
Kashmir in 1965 and 1999.

India also annexed Hyderabad state by sending _insurgents_ to Hyderabad.
<https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Osmanistan>

~~~
digamber_kamat
Need not go very far, just look into this history textbooks of pakistani
schools and you will realize that Pakistan has created an absolutely fake
history for itself. Where they glorify Ghori, Mughals while pictrize Ashoka as
villain and so on.

Pakistan is unable to live with the fact that both it's land people were once
upon a time pretty much hindu.

------
known
As per New Economics Foundation, Bhutan(17), Sri Lanka(22), Pakistan(24)
nations are happier than India(35). [http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-
show/slide-show-1-world...](http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-
show-1-worlds-10-happiest-countries/20110610.htm)

------
known
According to
[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sachar_Commit...](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sachar_Committee_Report)
report the status of Indian Muslims are below the conditions of
<https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Untouchables>

------
known
Compared to India, a higher percentage of women in Pakistan feel they are
treated with respect. As per National Crime Records Bureau, every 26 minutes a
rape is committed in India and out of which 30% are against minors.
[http://ibnlive.in.com/news/more-women-respected-in-
pakistan-...](http://ibnlive.in.com/news/more-women-respected-in-pakistan-
than-india-report/134473-19-93.html?from=tn)

~~~
GiraffeNecktie
According to the article it's 81% in Pakistan and 79% in India. A two percent
difference in a survey means that the two countries are basically the same.

------
Zarar
The author had daddy issues. BTW, what is this article even doing on HN?

My take: Kashmir == root cause. Fix that first, grant independence.

~~~
wisty
People don't question 2 or 3 China articles a day. It's refreshing to see
something written about another big developing country or (in this case, two).

------
programmerx
I will probably get downvoted but articles like these do not belong on HN.

This is just a propaganda article from the Indians, to make Pakistanis look
bad.

Now there will be propaganda articles from the Pakistanis next, to make
Indians look bad.

To pass propaganda is very normal for these two third world countries, they
have faught 3 wars since independence in the last 60 years and still half the
population in both countries live in poverty.

