

The Island Where People Forget to Die - ridgewell
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-where-people-forget-to-die.html?pagewanted=all

======
EarthLaunch
> It’s easy to get enough rest if no one else wakes up early and the village
> goes dead during afternoon naptime. It helps that the cheapest, most
> accessible foods are also the most healthful — and that your ancestors have
> spent centuries developing ways to make them taste good. It’s hard to get
> through the day in Ikaria without walking up 20 hills. You’re not likely to
> ever feel the existential pain of not belonging or even the simple stress of
> arriving late. Your community makes sure you’ll always have something to
> eat, but peer pressure will get you to contribute something too. You’re
> going to grow a garden, because that’s what your parents did, and that’s
> what your neighbors are doing.

Great article. This importance of pervasive cultural factors was the key
insight for me. I follow an unusual diet that happens to consist of 100%
unprocessed foods. I allow myself to sleep when I'm tired. I live somewhere I
can enjoy long walks and other fun exercise. I'm never late because I don't
set schedules.

> In the United States, you can’t go to a movie, walk through the airport or
> buy cough medicine without being routed through a gantlet of candy bars,
> salty snacks and sugar-sweetened beverages. The processed-food industry
> spends more than $4 billion a year tempting us to eat. How do you combat
> that? Discipline is a good thing, but discipline is a muscle that fatigues.
> Sooner or later, most people cave in to relentless temptation.

This is the trouble with following a different lifestyle; almost every aspect
of it conflicts with modern culture. Buying vegetables at a store, there's
tasty frozen pizza across the isle. Going out with friends, for variety and a
normal social atmosphere, modern-influenced food is the only option. Walk into
a gas station and there's the chips. Look at cat pics on the internet and
there's pictures of beer and bacon. Everyone wants to set a schedule, out of
habit if not the belief that stress increases productivity. People call to
talk late at night.

Even after forming good habits, every instance of conflict with the culture
requires some willpower, and socially, each requires an explanation. The only
way I've succeeded is when living a more isolated lifestyle, somewhere remote.
That leaves out cultural enjoyment and reinforcement.

~~~
rwmj
Not sure how you can describe frozen pizza as "tasty". I would never want to
eat a frozen pizza through choice.

~~~
coldtea
Lots of people do though. He went with the majority instead of what outliers
think.

------
imgabe
I wonder about these longevity clusters and whether they aren't just random.
If you've read _The Drunkard 's Walk_, (which I highly recommend by the way)
there's a similar phenomenon with cancer clusters and the distribution of
shells when the Germans were bombing London.

In both cases people rushed to find some explanation for why the events
happened in clusters like they did. What were the Germans trying to target?
What's in the water/air that's causing cancer? But if you distribute things
completely at random, you end up with the same sort of clusters purely by
chance.

So if everyone has a given percent chance of living to a certain age, and it's
randomly distributed throughout the world, you'd expect that there would be
some clusters where groups of people living a long time show up by chance.
It's not quite that simple of course, because longevity isn't independent from
one person to the next. e.g. if everyone in your family lives a really long
time, there's a good chance you'll live a really long time too. But I'd be
curious to see if these clusters happen at a greater incidence than one would
expect them to randomly occur or if there's even some way to measure that.

~~~
patal
I really enjoyed your argument. But why did you weaken it by reintroducing
systematic cause:

>> if everyone in your family lives a really long time, there's a good chance
you'll live a really long time too

This implies assumption of some sort of cause, which one would then expect to
hold in other parts outside that cluster, too. Which I understood as: the
island's longevity could be random -- but not really.

------
frik
As the side note says: "The key to Ikarian longevity is not simply a healthful
diet; daily socializing may be just as crucial." And taking a daily nap and
drink vine.

This is probably true and helps a lot. But who created the statistics? The
pension system there is widely misused. People keep their death parents
"alive" on paper to receive their pension for many years. It was so widespread
and the loss so great in Creek (and some other EU countries) that the European
Union intervened.

~~~
sotirisk
And where have you read about this "widely misused pension system"? I am Greek
and I can asure you that this is another one of the "rumors" floating around
about Greece which, as all rumors, is a blatant lie.

In fact, the pension system in Greece has been following the European
standards since at least 10 years.

I am so sick and tired of outsiders spewing nonsense all of the internet about
Greece without knowing any real fact.

~~~
castell
No rumors, the source are the Greek Labour Ministry and the European Union.

Search for "greek pension abuse" on Google:

* _Greece pulls the plug on pensions for the dead_ (Apr 25, 2012): [http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/greece-benefits-id...](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/greece-benefits-idUSL6E8FP4R320120425)

* _2% of Greek population abuse pension system_ (26 Apr, 2012): [https://www.devere-group.com/news/Greek-population-abuse-pen...](https://www.devere-group.com/news/Greek-population-abuse-pension-system.aspx)

* _Greece Still Paying Dead Pensioners_ (Aug 17, 2013): [http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013/08/17/greece-still-payi...](http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013/08/17/greece-still-paying-dead-pensioners/)

* _New Greek finance sham: 120,000 families claiming 'ghost pensions' for relatives who died years ago_ (12 October 2011): [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2048385/Greek-financ...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2048385/Greek-finance-sham-120k-families-claiming-ghost-pensions.html)

~~~
coldtea
If you read the articles -- and if you follow the proceedings in Greece, this
is linkbaity headlines.

Title: "120,000 families claiming 'ghost pensions' for relatives who died
years ago"

Actual content: "Greece has halted welfare or pension payments to 200,000
people either because they are unentitled to the money - or because they are
dead, a Labour Ministry official said on Wednesday."

Not that the 200.000 number includes all pensions under examination -- and
most of those were found to be absolutely OK in subsequent checks.

So, first the "dead getting pensions" were far from "120,000" (more close to a
few thousands -- and of those "dead cases" most were recent deaths of a few
months were the reported death wasn't yet registered (the bureacracy is
chaotic).

The final tally was some 40.000 problematic pensions (which in a huge messy
bureacracy like Greece includes pensions missing a few supporting documents,
having 1% less "pension credits" than needed, etc), and around 2.500 cases of
"dead pensioners".

Moreover, of those "dead pensioners" most were cases of people who died with
no relatives etc and weren't declared to stop the pension being deposited. Of
the 35 million euros deposited to dead pensioners, the state found that the 21
million euros were such and reclaimed it immediately (
[http://www.enet.gr/?i=news.el.article&id=380165](http://www.enet.gr/?i=news.el.article&id=380165)
). The rest could be actual fraud cases.

Not as impressive as the BS baity headlines that preceded the investigation
one year before. The government merely wanted to give an impression of wide
corruption, in order to sweeten the passage of some anti-pension laws.

------
nspattak
This story has come up around here in the past (and I also left a comment at
the time :P ).

To begin with, this is not a magic Lost/Avatar-kind of island!

I am Greek from another island and I can confirm that Icaria is a very
interesting place.

However I think there are two aspects that are mistaken (even by me until
recently). People are living a relaxed life but not a work free or "easy"
life. They work hard and they live with less modern world amenities than most
of us reading this article. The second (less important) is about the diet but
this is a long discussion.

IMO what they do lack is everyday stress and pressure from people around them.

I also expect that there are other similar places around the world that I
would like to meet.

~~~
ff_
As a Sardinian I totally agree with you: IMO too the magic ingredient is the
lack of stress due to the strong community feeling.

Surely the diet plays an important role, but for me that is not so important
as the reason above.

That said, it's a really good article, and now Icaria is in my places-to-
visit-absolutely list.

------
kazinator
Is it the island which causes longevity? Or is it that the island is only
suitable for hardy, independent old people who are prone to achieving
longevity?

You'd have to see the data beneath the surface: have all those old people
lived on that island all their lives, or did they come from elsewhere to
retire there?

How about islanders who move away and retire elsewhere, and who don't live
that long? Is it because they moved away from the island of longevity? Or did
they move away because it wasn't suitable for them to live (like that, for
instance, they couldn't sustain the agricultural work due to health problems?)

Suppose someone moves away from the island at 75, because he or she requires
care and there is nobody there (the kids and grandkids live elsewhere).
Suppose that this person then dies half a year later, now a resident of
another city or region. Will that death still be counted against the island so
that it drags down its longevity average?

------
petercooper
I don't know if his story checks out, but I was intrigued by the idea of
cancers going away on their own, as if they were a typical illness. It turns
out, sometimes they do: [http://bigthink.com/videos/can-cancer-cure-
itself-4](http://bigthink.com/videos/can-cancer-cure-itself-4) \- and even
weirder (to me), many cancers are self limited in nature and more harmful to
treat than just leave in place:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/30/health/cancer-screening-
ma...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/30/health/cancer-screening-may-be-more-
popular-than-useful.html)

~~~
eru
Isn't that what they call a benign tumour?

~~~
petercooper
However, benign tumors are not cancerous. While 'cancer' is often used
interchangeably with 'tumor', I was referring to malignant tumors as it's
common knowledge benign tumors can lay dormant.

[http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/benigntumors.html](http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/benigntumors.html)

------
codexjourneys
So this formula seems to boil down to:

\- The lack of typical Western stress

\- The physical activity of walking on the island

\- The diet

Stress is the demon. If Ikarians don't face the typical Western
job/money/schedule-associated stress (and I'm not saying they don't face other
stress like family or social pressure), that's a huge advantage for them.

Physical activity also has been shown as a major differentiator. People who
walk more than 7,000 steps daily have lower cardiovascular mortality
([http://www.athleteinme.com/ArticleView.aspx?id=296](http://www.athleteinme.com/ArticleView.aspx?id=296)).
As a bonus, they are all getting enough Vitamin D from walking around in the
sun.

I'm sure the diet helps, but it's probably a supporting factor.

------
Stratoscope
Olives, hummus, and sourdough bread.

Herbal teas, coffee and wine.

Goat's milk and honey.

Wild greens, beans, and olive oil.

Work in the fields, gathering it all.

A nap in the afternoon, and plenty of sex.

This is a recipe for a long life.

~~~
chongli
Don't forget lots of socializing and a tight-knit community. And a lack of
access to commercial processed foods. Temptation is a powerful thing!

~~~
sotiris-k
socializing is not part of the recipe. There are plenty of monks who live a
life of solidute but follow the recipe above and still live to tell the tale

------
thomasfl
I want to become like Oscar Niemeyer when I get old. Niemeyer continued to
create architecture even after he had passed the age of 100 years. Having his
own office made it possible for him to work as much as he wanted. That's how I
see myself as an old man, still designing software in an office where I can
work as much as I want to. Tending vineyard on a greek Island is not for me.

------
calcsam
Previous discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4692598](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4692598)

------
sixQuarks
The proliferation of co-working/co-living spaces is a positive trend I'm
seeing that could lead to longer, happier lives. I'm hoping to see communities
like this pop up all over the world - instead of everyone growing their
gardens and vineyards, we'll be growing our startups or lifestyle businesses
while being surrounded by a community of friends.

------
ha292
The article glosses over the contribution of genetics by providing just one
vague counterexample.

However, see this

[http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....](http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0029848)

Very clear evidence in a wide study about the contribution of genetics.

~~~
tokenadult
I spend a lot of time in a journal club discussing human behavior genetics
with researchers who include researchers on extreme old age. That's a data-
mining study, and would not impress other researchers in the field (or even
get published in a better journal) without being replicated in an independent
dataset. Spurious gene-correlation studies of this kind are a dime a dozen.

Food for thought is that the heritability of longevity as discovered in twin
studies is actually not particularly high.

------
arturmakly
for me - the environment has a huge affect. utopia for me would be a
distributed global community based in various exotic locations that are +50%
self sufficient.. where everyone contributes to building social or eco
progressive products, services, and biz models. with possibilities for virtual
schooling ( for those w/kids )

------
staz
Missing a (2012) . I knew I recognized the title. Very interesting article
though.

------
agounaris
If you haven't been to Icaria you cannot understand the article. It's the
calmness, the lack of anxiety, the clean air and a stressless way of life...

------
JoeAltmaier
Usually, in cases where people claim great age, its because they're using
their parent's or grandparent's birth certificate.

------
chroma
Let's assume every claim in this article is true. Let's say that if you follow
a certain diet, move to a certain island, make certain friends, and have
certain genes, you will live to the age of 100.

So _what_?

Best case, you get an extra decade or two of life. This may seem amazing, but
to be honest, it's ineffectual life. This extra time will be spent being
_old_. Whether you're 70 or 100, you will be frail, dim-witted[1], and
unattractive. If you doubt this, consider that practically any old person
would be willing to give up _all_ of their material possessions to inhabit the
body of a 20 year-old.

The real solution is not to extend natural human life by a fraction. The real
solution is to make frailty and death voluntary. If this achievement seems
ridiculous, remember how many technologies were once placed in the same
category of improbability. To someone from a couple centuries ago, antibiotics
would be witchcraft.

While I recognize that such disruptions would cause chaos and unrest, I also
recognize that the current "solution" is far worse. In fact, it is
reprehensible. On average, over 100,000 people die of aging _every day_.
Whatever benefits aging may create, the costs are far worse. To put it
concretely: imagine a Boxing Day tsunami happening every two days. That is
what aging does to humanity right now. Imagine the sun flickering once a
second. A human being dies more often than that. To accept this is obscene. It
is is immoral. It is insane. And yet, most people do. Shame on us.

1\. If you doubt that cognition declines as one ages, please read _When does
age-related cognitive decline begin?_
([http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683339/pdf/nihm...](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683339/pdf/nihms104392.pdf)).
If you aren't willing to read the paper, at least view the figures on pages 11
& 12.

Edit: I am amused by the replies speculating about my age. Even if I was
young, how does that refute my arguments? At the risk of revealing my
identity: I'm halfway through a typical human life. My values have shifted
since I was young, but my disapproval of aging hasn't changed. Ever since I
realized that people died through no fault of their own, I've been against it.

~~~
sdoering
> but to be honest, it's ineffectual life. This extra time will be spent being
> old. Whether you're 70 or 100, you will be frail, dim-witted[1], and
> unattractive.

I have seldom read such an amazing load of (sorry, to say it this way)
bullshit and disdain of the old/being old.

I am in my thirties and I really am in awe the live, the doings, the stories
of a lot of elders around me.

Sorry, but how young are you?

Getting older and eventually dying is imho, what defines our humanity.
Granted, we have learned to extend live by a reasonably amount and have also,
in a lot of cases, learned to lengthen it in a way, that gives people a lot of
life-quality during their elder years.

In former times, being 40 to 50 meant you were frail, old, broken by hard
work, and so on. Now, in most cases, that happens probably in your 70ies.

Anecdotal: Looking at my stepfather, who is helping us renovate our home and
being 78, I wonder, how I will ever be able to do that much, when I am his
age. Or my slightly younger stepmother.

By the way, he rides his bicycle for 4.500 miles every year, just for fun...

> If you doubt this, consider that practically any old person would be willing
> to give up all of their material possessions to inhabit the body of a 20
> year-old.

Oh yeah, I really doubt this - I know a lot of older people and most of them
would not want this trade in.

You are arguing from a very dangerous standpoint, as you argue, that cognitive
decline makes live unworthy (and with that every old person). Thinking your
argument through you arrive very fast at a point, where we have to get rid of
older people, as their lives are "ineffectual life", I really feel only
contempt for this race for efficiency, when it is used to divide people into
categories like worthy/unworthy or lives in effectual/ineffectual.

Sorry, but I have to take a stand here, as your inhuman comment is the most
upvoted here, standing on top. For me, that stains the whole of this
community.

So now, let the downvotes beging. ;-)

~~~
Padding
> Getting older and eventually dying is imho, what defines our humanity.

Maybe, but is that a good thing?

To simply "expire out of existence" is a big issue for "humanity". It's the
main reason why there's no proper answer to "what's the meaning of life" \-
whatever you do during your 50/70/120/.. years of life you'll eventually end
up just as dead as the guy right next to you. Congratulations!

Being immortal would allow us to get rid of crutches like religion and allow
us to implement proper moral systems, since there would be tangible rewards to
being "good" simply for "goodness' sake", since being good and being selfish
would be identical - if you'll (eventually but reiably) suffer
overpoputlation, pollution and even unemployment just as much as the next guy,
you'll (eventually but, again, reiably) think twice about elbow tactics.

> Oh yeah, I really doubt this - I know a lot of older people and most of them
> would not want this trade in.

20? Maybe. but How about being in the body of a 30- or 40-year old again? I
can't imagine any 70-year olds not wanting to have a more "hassle-free" body,
all other things being equal.

> makes live unworthy

Talking about live being "unworthy" is a slippery slope, but there
nevertheless is an argument to be made about quality vs quantity of life .

I don't have the reference (and the exact numbers) at hand, but in "Happiness
Hypothesis" (the Book) the author mentions a survey where people got to
express their preference between "living x years of life and then dying to
some tragic accident" and "x+y years of life, but y years spent in a
wheelchair, because of some tragic accident". The results were rather mixed
with the shorter life being more popular choice.

And, by the end of the day, a chance at higher-quality life in exchange for
possibly less total life is also why things like armed robberies exist (even
if not every robber things of it like that beforehand). I'd also argue the
same is true of people opting for high-risk jobs, but there's also a sense-of-
duty aspect to them, so it's not quite as clear-cut there.

~~~
Gurkenmaster
>20? Maybe. but How about being in the body of a 30- or 40-year old again? I
can't imagine any 70-year olds not wanting to have a more "hassle-free" body,
all other things being equal.

Nobody is going to pay for your pension forever. Do you really want to spend
your entire life working?

~~~
gambiting
>>Nobody is going to pay for your pension forever.

What? I don't know where you are from,but in EU state pensions are absolutely
paid until death.

~~~
Gurkenmaster
I live in germany but I tried to use common sense.

In this scenario our society would be split into two groups if we pay pensions
for eternity:

Those who lived long enough to receive their pension. Their body turns 30
again thanks to breakthroughs in science. And those who never age beyond 30
and so they never get their pension.

The first group effectively gets "basic income" and they probably own
houses/apartments so their living costs are quite low. You can either let
everyone have pensions or get rid of pensions.

------
cLeEOGPw
Who knew that being on vacation your whole life can increase longevity.

------
JohnLen
Interesting story. Worth reading though

