
Sex differences in ability tilt in the right tail of cognitive abilities - jeffreyrogers
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289617301241
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stcredzero
According to the NLRB, citing something like this in a memorandum at someplace
like Google is discriminatory "junk science."

~~~
IntronExon
I would imagine that has a lot to do with what you cite it to support. The
conclusions here are weak where innate ability is concerned, yet I suspect
that’s where you were headed. I can cite studies showing worse outcomes for
African Americans for example, but I’d be a deceptive ass if I tried to pawn
that of as proof off innate differences.

~~~
stcredzero
_I can cite studies showing worse outcomes for African Americans for example,
but I’d be a deceptive ass if I tried to pawn that of as proof off innate
differences._

If one considers studies from around the world, across many cultures, it's
pretty clear to me that there's no IQ huge disadvantage to having African
genetics. Nigerian immigrants are presently kicking ass and even outdoing
Asians. Immigrant from many Caribbean backgrounds do very well. Also cited by
myself elsewhere, there's a study that found that the African American
children of US servicepeople in Germany was basically the same as their
classmates. Whatever's the cause of lowered IQs in underprivileged African
American children in the US, it's not genetic.

Historical IQ studies suggest that immigrant groups can raise their average
IQs by a lot. Historical studies of such groups also indicate that the degree
of group assimilation and participation in society versus group isolation can
have huge effects on the wealth of the group. A pattern that arises again and
again, are elites of some such groups that keep their group isolated to retain
subgroup power. This pattern can cause the same ethnic group to have widely
disparate economic success in different parts of the world. (German immigrant
communities are a good example of this phenomenon.)

The above is discussed in Thomas Sowell's _Migrations and Cultures_.

~~~
seele
> If one considers studies from around the world, across many cultures, it's
> pretty clear to me that there's no IQ huge disadvantage to having African
> genetics. Nigerian immigrants are presently kicking ass and even outdoing
> Asians. Immigrant from many Caribbean backgrounds do very well. Also cited
> by myself elsewhere, there's a study that found that the African American
> children of US servicepeople in Germany was basically the same as their
> classmates.

Please share sources.

~~~
stcredzero
The above is discussed in Thomas Sowell's _Migrations and Cultures._

An overarching theme in Thomas Sowell's books: The world is ruled by human
capital, that is: cultures and people's ideas of how the world is and should
be. Thinkers like Jordan Peterson would add that the world is also ruled by
various forces working below the level of consciousness, for which humans have
developed religion and art to try and deal with -- which also fall under the
rubric of culture.

I think it's Culture which is the dominant factor, and this is a great
foundation of hope. It means that all of the greatest accomplishments of human
civilizations are available to all peoples, given enough effort to transform
one's understanding and way of life. Such is the power of culture, that this
effort may take generations to accomplish. History bears this out. If the
descendants of Irish peasants (who, during the potato famine could start out
1/2 to 1/4th as wealthy as the average US slave) could arrive at their current
place in modern society, then there's basically nothing that cultural
transmission can't accomplish, given enough resources and time.

------
bdod6
For anyone interested in additional research and debate on this topic, I'd
recommend watching Pinker and Spelke's excellent debate on Youtube. As some
might remember, in 2005 Larry Summers was fired from Harvard for making
similar comments regarding right tail cognitive abilities. Pinker/Spelke lay
out great points on both sides of the issue.

Sex Differences in Cognitive Abilities by Diane Halpern is another important
work in this subject. It was published back in 1986, so the research on topic
has been going on for decades. During that time, virtually every piece of
research supports the claim that innate differences in mental abilities exist
between the sexes. The extent of those differences is hard to measure, but
this new paper is nothing new. It's just adding more support to an already
large body of evidence.

------
dogma1138
They've published in the past the 30 year results in 2010 for anyone who's
interested to see if there are any major differences.

[https://www.psychologytoday.com/sites/default/files/attachme...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/sites/default/files/attachments/56143/sex-
differences-in-the-right-tail-cognitive-abilities.pdf)

------
uoaei
The thing to remember about data is, it only says exactly what it says. And
what it says is this: sex of an individual somehow correlates with the measure
of cognitive ability used in the study.

The hidden variable here is a dominating one: the sex of the individual and
how they have been socialized to practice certain skills over others. This
varies by where they spent their developmental years, how their parents
brought them or denied them certain opportunities, how the skills they
developed align with or diverge from the test they took, and other invisible
influences.

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shrewduser
man you really have to catch these stories quick before they're blasted off
the front page, i was hoping for some discussion but it looks like these
stories get buried either by mass flagging or an admin.

~~~
jeffreyrogers
Yeah it's a shame. I thought the comments on this one were pretty civil and
reasonable.

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gwern
Mirror:
[https://www.dropbox.com/s/ctuft161j42r46f/2018-wai.pdf?dl=0](https://www.dropbox.com/s/ctuft161j42r46f/2018-wai.pdf?dl=0)

------
owens99
Research like this fails to give us any insights about the difference between
Nature vs Nurture.

It's highly likely men and women are conditioned and encouraged from an early
age by their parents to take interest in things which the parent believes fits
their gender role.

~~~
insickness
There are several areas of research that show there are biologically
deterministic differences between males and females.

Female new born babies focus on faces more than males do. Males focus more on
mechanical mobiles than females.
[https://www.theguardian.com/education/2003/apr/17/research.h...](https://www.theguardian.com/education/2003/apr/17/research.highereducation)

Male Monkeys prefer boy toys while female monkeys prefer girl toys.
[https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-
pr...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-
toys/)

------
IntronExon
It is worth pointing out that “ability” here is being measured by standardized
tests, such as SAT and ACT. This could reflect underlying differences between
sexes, or that by the time people are categorized as being in the top 5%
social/cultural bias has already had an effect.

~~~
stcredzero
The measurement of general intelligence is just about the most strongly
predictive tool in Psychology.

Here's some things from Thomas Sowell's _Migrations and Cultures_ that people
don't know about intelligence as measured by groups. Polish and Italian
immigrant communities went from the mid-80's average IQ to over 100 over the
1st half of the 20th century. Poles had increased their average IQ to 108. In
another study, African American children of US service people growing up in
Germany had the same average IQs as their classmates.

So could factors outside of genetics, like culture, have powerful effects on
IQ? It certainly looks like it. Advocates of Social Justice should be looking
for what these factors are. Whatever those factors are, not seeking to deliver
them to underprivileged groups is like letting lead get into the water of
Flint Michigan: It can mean huge differences in the IQs of growing children.
Instead, what I see from the far left, is the willful suppression of such
information. If it doesn't fit the political agenda and narrative, then it's
a-priori a product of bigotry or bias of some kind. Sorry, but that strikes me
as cynical and very odd. It's almost like someone cares more about power than
the welfare of the underprivileged.

More on the specific topic of the op, the SAT and ACT certainly don't measure
everything. Perhaps there is some kind of bias in workplace culture that puts
too much emphasis on the skills well measured by such tests, while other kinds
of skills are underappreciated? My intuitive sense, considering what tech is
like, is that it's probably true.

~~~
IntronExon
Measurement of general intelligence isn’t part of this study.

~~~
stcredzero
I thought that ACT and SAT scores were used as a proxy for the measurement of
general intelligence.

~~~
nugi
Proxy is the key word here. There are many more biases in SAT, ACT, than most
general intelligence tests.

~~~
stcredzero
[citation needed]

A lot of criticism about intelligence tests are ideologically driven, because
underprivileged groups score low, and in many regions that have suffered the
most from colonialism, underprivileged groups score low. I think that what we
will find is that being underprivileged affects intelligence quite strongly.

Sephardic Jews were at the center of worldwide Jewish culture. Their cultural
contributions and success in society would suggest that as a population they
were probably quite intelligent during their heyday. Today, Ashkenazi Jews are
known to have a high average group IQ, higher than current day Sephardic Jews.

I suspect that ideological knee-jerk fear driven suppression of IQ research on
underprivileged groups is keeping our society from realizing interventions
which can help groups by driving up their average IQ scores. We have
historical evidence from the US that underprivileged groups with below average
IQs can be changed.

------
ggm
I'm tempted to put this in the same bucket as "the bell curve" that it
uncovered a factoid, but one which shifts the centre overlap of two curves by
a statistically significant (ie, measureable) amount, but does not strongly
suggest that close to normal people on average have a difference which matters
a damn.

Many of us outside google believe that google employs too many people who
_think_ they are Mensa, and so self-identify in the far right side. Sorry
guys, but I hate to tell you this: your own curves probably don't support your
arguments: you're all well within normal.

TL;DR _no, this doesn 't support the diversity memo_

~~~
stcredzero
_TL;DR no, this doesn 't support the diversity memo_

[citation needed]

What you say seems to generally contradict findings in psychology and common
sense.

[http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Occupations.aspx](http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Occupations.aspx)

[https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-average-IQ-of-a-Google-
engin...](https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-average-IQ-of-a-Google-
engineer/answer/Jake-Nicholson-16?share=19ec7d8e&srid=TPm)

Maybe Googlers don't have to all be in Mensa. However, having more general
intelligence is a good predictor of success in many tech fields.

~~~
ggm
Those are weak cites (ok: so I gave none) -one has bars wide enough to drive a
low-IQ truck through. The other is "I went to IQ camp and here is my cornflake
box toy" response.

Having GI is good for engineering, sure. But having maths higher than verbal
skills, I think its in the margins. You want both, and people with both, and
with determination and good teaching will go far. I believe good teaching and
a drive to success outweighs almost everything else.

(not an engineer. I looked at my competencies and decided not to make bridges,
I didn't want the burdens which come with being wrong about the bridge
building)

~~~
stcredzero
_Those are weak cites (ok: so I gave none)_

The preponderance of the evidence is against you, but I'm not versed in
grabbing psych links.

 _I believe good teaching and a drive to success outweighs almost everything
else._

That is very powerful. I would partly agree, in that those are very powerful.
I think Liana K makes a very good case that there is something societal going
on.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIRvtA2JIIA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIRvtA2JIIA)

However, there seems to be a "Scandinavian Paradox" for attitudes regarding
Math as well:

[http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....](http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0153857)

