
Smoke and Mirrors: How Snap and Pinterest Hide User Attrition - CitizenTekk
https://beth.technology/how-snap-and-pinterest-hide-user-attrition/
======
pjc50
> In the last quarter, the global audience contributed $17 million to revenue
> compared to $273 million from the United States audience. Annually, this
> puts the global audience at $41 million in revenue and the United States at
> $715 million in revenue.

Ouch. $41 million revenue from non-US is .. not nothing, but it's a
respectable medium sized national chain of shops kind of number, not a $10bn
company number.

(Pinterest is also very vulnerable to Google one day deciding that they
shouldn't let them clog up the top of the image search rankings...)

~~~
JohnJamesRambo
Is there any way for me to just ban pinterest from my google searches? I
detest their links and I do hope google does that someday.

~~~
duxup
Google images needs a way to filter all sites where if you click to go to the
site that it is on.... doesn't show you the image.

~~~
Scoundreller
Can we crowdsource this banlist, just like an adblocker automatically updates?

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ipsum2
> On April 4th, Snap announced a programmatic offering called Audience
> Network, which copies Facebook’s strategy of selling user data for third-
> party ads across multiple applications

This is incorrect, and makes me wonder if the rest of the article is accurate.
Both Snap and Facebook's Audience Network is similar to Google's AdSense
(running ads on a website) or AdMob (running ads on mobile). Google, Snap, and
Facebook don't sell user data (from the aforementioned products, at least).

~~~
colejohnson66
I see this a lot and I have to wonder: Why would they sell the user data? It
would ruin their business model of collecting the data

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jfk13
I suspect "selling user data" is often a shorthand that really means something
more like "selling ad-targeting based on user data". Which is not the same
thing, although the results can still be abhorrent.

~~~
munchbunny
I think this is correct, but we also semi-intentionally conflate the two to
say the less worse version while connoting the worse version.

That said, the difference is blurry. LinkedIn and Facebook are both capable of
hyper-specific targeting that may as well be specific users. I haven't
interacted with Snap's ad product, but I suspect it can accomplish similar
granularity.

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rhizome
Selling data, renting it, or monetizing derivatives of it...does it matter?
Being a gatekeeper to data pays regardless of what kind of transaction is
occurring.

~~~
tracker1
Because, $BAD_ACTOR$ may be able to target advertizing to $GROUP_X$ in one
scenario, but in another, may actual have the underlying data which can be
abused in _MANY_ other ways.

For example, you search for porn content... an advertiser targeting porn
content doesn't know _YOU_ search for porn content in the former... in the
latter they do know.

~~~
rhizome
What is the practical difference(s) between those two scenarios?

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gregmac
Hm, interesting, I thought this would be more about how these companies define
"active user". For example: is a user with the app installed, logged in and
running in the background considered "active" that day, even if they don't
actually launch or really use the app? If you send them a notification, even
if they don't click on it, are they 'active'?

Normally I'd be cynical and say it's in the company's interest to be as loose
as possible how they count 'active' so the MAU/DAU (monthly/daily active
users) numbers are high, but if you are looking at ARPU (average revenue per
user) then a lower MAU/DAU means higher ARPU. What's more valuable?

~~~
cycrutchfield
>For example: is a user with the app installed, logged in and running in the
background considered "active" that day, even if they don't actually launch or
really use the app? If you send them a notification, even if they don't click
on it, are they 'active'?

I’m not aware of any company that defines active user in this way. Typically
for an app it would have to be an explicit user interaction such as opening
the app to count as an active user for that day.

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Spivak
Seriously? Pinterest makes less than $9/yr off of me? I would drop $10/yr to
not have to see ads again and probably use the service more.

~~~
RugnirViking
I would happily pay $10 per year to never see pintrest again. I would strongly
suspect this rings true for the vast majority of people.

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troydavis
> I would strongly suspect this rings true for the vast majority of people

Could you provide your reasoning for this strong suspicion, beyond the fact
that you don't like it?

(I also can't stand Pinterest and don't know why Google Images ranks it as
highly as it does. That said, I'm not willing to assume my preferences are
representative of the population when (a) Pinterest has hundreds of millions
of MAUs, (b) Google has better data than I do and as strong or stronger
incentives to deliver good results, and (c) I don't have any data about anyone
else's preferences. [https://equilibriabook.com/](https://equilibriabook.com/)
has more on figuring out whether one's thesis that a system is broken is
actually correct. [https://equilibriabook.com/living-in-an-inadequate-
world/](https://equilibriabook.com/living-in-an-inadequate-world/) section ii
is a great starting point.)

~~~
RugnirViking
It's a suspicion, not a research paper.

If I had data, I wouldn't have said I suspected it.

A suspect in a crime is what you call them _before_ you gather the data on
whether or not they did the crime.

All it is as it stands is a good basis to go and gather some data. However, it
doesn't bother me quite that much, and so it's merely a passing interest for
me.

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kippinitreal
It doesn’t seem fair to assume the international ARPU is maxed out just
because the US ARPU is. I imagine the lose markets are just less mature and
are more focused on growth at this point than monetization (as they should
be!). What’s the ratio of US/international ARPU for comparable companies?

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supernovae
Pinterest is a visual search engine, not a social network. Comparing it to
SNAP or Facebook valuation is missing the entire point.

I think Pinterest has other problems - mostly a market based on manipulating
it - but hell so does google but google is further along in tech/services to
increase quality.

What i _really_ can't stand about pinterest is that even though it is a visual
search - it requires an obscene amount of work from creators to be competitive
- having to update your "pins" monthly and cycle them through and do A/B
testing all the meanwhile others are stealing or borrowing your pins to enter
those search terms/markets it creates a downward spiral - soon topics look
spammy and only those who can afford to commit so much time/effort see the
reward - then they turn around and start a business selling their idea.

No one looks at your boards anymore, they all search so people stuff their
boards to find every variation of keyword and its starting to surface up to
the search meaning searches get spammed by those who got there first rather
than those most relevent.

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abacadaba
"Pinterest is a visual search engine"

Aaah, ok kinda make sense now. Been hearing about this site for years, and I
still don't 'get' what it actually is.

I think the part of my brain that understands social media is broken.

~~~
slantyyz
I just use it for bookmarking images I might want to come back to or share in
the future (e.g., my favorite XKCDs, screenshots of GUIs for inspiration,
etc.).

The funny thing is that even though I have lots of clippings, I rarely ever go
back to Pinterest to actually look at them.

~~~
edmundsauto
I've found that for myself, the joy is in the collecting, not in the having.

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gummyworm
That was the case for myself as well. I used to find in therapeutic to pin
cookie recipes and Halloween decorations during my work break (from a job I
was not too fond of).

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thanatropism
Pinteres has poor marketing. I've always heard of it as something aimed at
women and architects, full of decoration and hairstyle concepts. But they
have, to my knowledge, an impressive catalog of (i) really niche erotica
(maybe bordering on pornography, but not in the bad taste that databases of
pornography have) and (ii) abstract art, both in more common settings (color
field, etc.) and in more niche types such as asemic writing.

There's just so much asemic writing on Pinterest! On facebook I used to follow
many artists; when I quit facebook I was thirsty for art for a long while. The
effect is that Pinterest seems to have unending quantities of that very
specific material, much like YouTube has seemingly unending quantities of
music that's not officially licensed for streaming anywhere (hours upon hours
of Japanese and Polish jazz...)

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ghostly_s
How would one go about finding these collections? (asking for a friend...)

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jpindar
Same way you find anything: by searching for it, liking things that are
similar to what you're looking for, and following any boards and/or people who
have things close to what you're looking for. Warning: Pinterest's
recommendation engine is generally quite good, but once you've shown an
interest in something, it's hard to get it to stop recommending similar
things. So you might want to use different accounts for certain subjects.

~~~
ghostly_s
I mean, you want me to search "niche erotica"? It sounded like you were
describing specific collections that would have associated URLs.... but
certainly understand if you don't want to post those links here.

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lordnacho
Does anyone know why Americans seem to be much keener on spending money?

~~~
benplumley
I'm constantly surprised on this site by comments like "I would gladly spend
$50/month on this", in response to startup/SaaS ideas that I'd balk at
spending $5 on once. Perhaps it's cultural or perhaps there's just a lot of
San Francisco salaries commenting here.

~~~
slantyyz
> I'm constantly surprised on this site by comments like "I would gladly spend
> $50/month on this"

If someone's willing to spend $50/m on something, the pain point being
addressed is usually perceived as worth $50 or more in terms of money, time
and/or stress.

Pricing is usually set based on a specific target market, so if you only value
that pain point as being worth $5/m, then you're likely outside of the target
market.

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cycrutchfield
What part of this article talks about these companies “hiding” user attrition?
It’s not like they are failing to disclose these numbers at all.

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everythingswan
I appreciate the analysis. I love thinking about these economics so I deeply
appreciate the thought process!

My question would be, and I hope to be able to dig in later, is the
international ad platform rolled out completely? Ad products tend to roll out
continuously and I would want to know if the problem is adoption of the
platform from advertisers or a low-usage issue.

Advertisers will always find out where customers are so I would assume that
it's either the platform isn't getting adopted or the actual tool of delivery
is lagging behind, maybe until adoption increases.

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yalogin
I still don’t understand why Pinterest makes any sense for the investor but I
guess I dont understand pinterest and their target audience. I have never once
thought about browsing or even encountered Pinterest links through google
searches.

~~~
grogenaut
Do you ever look for curated product list like wire cutters? Do you ever look
at car or home improvement forums or reviews to see which is the best product.
Do you like when sites so grids of feature comparisons?

Pinterest is this but for things that are mostly asthetic. Eg show me curated
groups of products that for my style.

I hate Pinterest ui but as I get into leather working I can see why having
curated lists of things in a style vector is useful. Also why I'd want to just
pin things I saw into a page about a backpack. Or garage cabinets for me
redoing my workshop.

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drgoodvibe
Suppose all this points out is that Pinterest needs to hire Facebooks
international growth team. Surely there are countries outside of say India
where users are more prone to monetization, despite stagnating growth in the
USA.

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return1
Not many, aside from the anglosphere and western europe.

[https://www.bloggingjoy.com/adsense-high-cpc-
countries/](https://www.bloggingjoy.com/adsense-high-cpc-countries/)

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data_spy
I love how the guy's in the right foreground of the image uses his monitor to
hold his sticky notes.

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wavesounds
This is a hit piece. Why didn't she update her article with the results of
Snaps Q1 earnings that came out later the day this was published? 190 DAU goes
against her narrative of declining users

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okmokmz
She said "You’ll see below that the user base has struggled to break out over
191 million daily active users and has declined to flat for three straight
quarters" which still holds true with Q1 earnings at 190

