

What I learned today: Never apply for a job - ngavronsky
http://www.venturebent.com/2011/07/what-i-learned-today-never-apply-for-a-job-2/

======
shawnee_
While we're on the topic, I'm just going to say that those "anonymous" job
postings here on YC drive me nuts

"YCW11 company hiring front end dev! New office space! We <3 Django! Fridge
stocked w/beer! "

There are a only couple YC companies I wouldn't want to work for, period.
Mainly from the recent crop, but those bad seeds kinda ruin the whole "work
for a random anonymous YC company!" recruitment tool.

~~~
cglee
Why can't you email and ask them who they are?

~~~
bartonfink
The onus should be on the hiring company to tell about themselves because
they're the ones who want something. If I'm looking for a job, I can either
look at the 99% of job listings (both startup and more mainstream) that will
tell me exactly what I'll be working on and who I'll be working with or I can
ask someone who's already been vague for clarification to decide whether I
even want to apply. The incentive just isn't there for the job-seeker.

What you're suggesting is that it's perfectly reasonable for someone to post a
help-wanted ad in the classifieds saying "I need help! Call me to find out
what with!" and to expect people to call you instead of the ads all around
yours.

------
m0nty
Just recently, I took a couple of steps to enhance my job searching. First was
to post my CV/resume to jobs like monster.com; the second was a very old skool
writing-a-letter-on-goddamn-paper-and-mailing-it-out-to-would-be-employers.
The first has produced nothing but clueless phone-calls from agents. The
second landed me a job with >90% certainty; I have a second interview next
week. I am very well-qualified for the companies I wrote to, and I made sure I
selected them very carefully (partly because postage costs actual money). This
is relevant to the article since I'm not really applying for a job -- the
company who want to hire me basically made a position for me.

Anyway, I'm starting to think that current online job searching is profoundly
broken. It just seems to lead back to the clueless employment agents who know
nothing about IT. Not much different from 20 years ago, it's just they have
access to bigger databases and no incentive _not_ to email scatter-gun fashion
since there is no cost involved. I have no idea if there is a solution to
this, but at least my retro approach eliminated _two_ sets of middle-men: the
jobs boards and the agents. It also put me very much in control which was an
excellent feeling.

~~~
bpick
What someone should do is create a site where you can email your resume/letter
in and have it attractively handwritten on nice letterhead.

Who's with me?

~~~
tomjen3
It's not a bad idea, but the issue is going to be to find enough people with
attractive handwriting...

~~~
xyzzyz
Quite contrary -- there are a lot of people who are able to handwrite really
nicely, especially among women. Since it's so commonplace and it does not
require any training (since everybody got one in primary education), you can
pay really low wage for such services.

------
alexro
It can work out for you, but I don't see how it applies to just anyone. Going
to the events takes time, social skills and money (if the events are far).

And, what if you move to another country or switch to a different industry?
You still need recruiters in that case, so the Monster isn't releasing it's
grip anytime soon.

------
euroclydon
If you're an experienced software developer with skills in some of the
following technologies: PHP/C++/Python/Rails/Django/ASP.NET/SQL/JavaScript/etc
and you live in a dynamic market like SF/CHI/PHY/NYC/RDU/etc, then it's enough
to simply create a profile on one of the career sites. The recruiters will be
after you shortly.

Getting a job via a job board and recruiter won't be all warm and fuzzy like
meeting an employeer at a conference. It will be more like buying a used car,
but you still don't have to _apply_ in this market.

~~~
OliverSteenbuck
I'd think that it would be the used car nobody who knew it wanted...

When jobs show up in those sites, the company already failed at filling the
position through trusted references. (or so is my impression)

Doesn't have to be bad ofcourse, but propably warrants more due dilligence on
the job seekers part than a good reference.

~~~
euroclydon
There are so many reasons why a company might not be good at recruiting
employees. They run from not having enough time, to opening an office in a new
city, or simply being willing to outsource networking so they can do stuff
they like.

If you're looking for a job as a place to make friends and work with
interesting people, fine, that's good stuff. But, many places of work are
simply businesses, trying to make money for their owners. Recruiters want to
find competent and experienced workers who can come in and get stuff done.
It's not all lowballing and keyword bingo.

~~~
sbisker
That may be true, but it's obvious that recruiting has a problem if it's so
hard to separate the wheat from the chaff in their own ranks. It's the same
problem with realty and real estate agents.

------
keithnoizu
It is interesting advice. I think the usefulness of job sourcing based off of
your personal network may have it's limitations however. Especially for those
career stage or geographically challenged individuals.

Personally I tend to only passively job-hunt by keeping my CV and skillset up
to date. I don't think this approach has done too poorly for me, although
possibly i'd be more excited to head into work for google or facebook every
day.

Letting other people do the work of identifying the positions that need or
benefit from your specific set of skills has its benefits and I tend to get a
steady stream of contacts from the corporations I find worth
while/interesting.

Now if I was dead set on gaining entry into a high quality, high-stakes start-
up, I could definietly see the benefits of leveraging my network to find the
best possible matches.

------
ams6110
_Every job that I have found has always been through warm relationships that I
have had with my peers._

My first job (sweatshop consultant doing mostly COBOL) was acquired through
the college placement office. My next job (a year later) was through a
recruiter who found the first employer a reliable field for harvest. That
second job worked out pretty well, I was there for seven years. The technology
was not very interesting but it was as very good fit for me as I was getting
marriage and family life underway.

After that, everything has been by referral or word of mouth from
friends/colleagues. None of those have been duds.

------
namityadav
I agree with the idea in general. However, there are many cases where
companies would (and should) hire people from outside their direct network.
One is if the company is growing too fast (People in the direct network may be
very busy & happy with their current jobs, making it harder to find enough of
them). The other is if the company is looking to get diverse experiences and
opinions. Imagine a social networking company formed by some employees of
Facebook -- they would be better off by hiring someone from MySpace or
Friendster who saw how difficult it was to compete with Facebook, and who
tried to find niches to be able to co-exist with Facebook.

Similarly, for an employee, there are benefits of going out of their own
network to get a job -- You get to work in a completely different setting
(which may be a better learning experience for you), and you get to build a
completely new network.

------
mgkimsal
Last couple times I've gone through an interview process, I've been more than
a little peeved because they didn't do any research on me beyond reading my
resume. I'm the webspace - we're talking about a web-oriented job - Google me
for goodness' sake!

Asking surface level questions that could be Googled in 2 seconds borders on
insulting. They certainly will judge me by how much I know about their
company, and how enthusiastic I am about the company. That needs to run both
ways.

My wife just says I was looking for an ego-stroke. Well... why wouldn't I?
I've worked hard for years both on building up my skills, but also trying to
build up a reputation. To gloss over that and not do any research beforehand
on someone you're planning on giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to over
multiple years is just lazy.

These were people that called me, not the other way around.

The job/labor/work market is broken, and I don't know if there's a way to
'fix' it in the short term. It will evolve in to something more workable, but
I don't see that happening too quickly.

~~~
walexander
Did you not have your previous work clearly listed on your resume? Why would
you expect, say, an engineer who just got FW your resume an hour before the
interview to go google you and stalk your twitter feed?

~~~
mgkimsal
If I'm interviewing someone, I will go research them beforehand. I've been
handed resumes, and gone and done a google search. If there's no blog, no
sourceforge/github, no homepage, no mailing list chatter, I've had that weigh
in my decision.

Previous work is listed on the resume.

I didn't suggest stalking a twitter feed, but googling for me would indicate I
do have a twitter account. And a blog. And a github account. And a podcast.
And that I run a local user group.

To then be asked "so, what's your involvement with the tech community?". Or
"what sort of tech work do you engage in outside of office hours?". That's
just lazy. There are 2 people on the planet with my name. This isn't a case of
"John Smith"-itis.

I also hate the calls from recruiters (I don't often take) that start with "I
found your resume...." and end with "... send me your resume". Umm... you have
it. YOU FOUND IT ONLINE. THAT'S IT. Sure.... they may have found one from 8
years ago - I get it. I tell them - "it's updated on my website and in
multiple formats". If they can't be bothered to go to my website to download
it, we're off to a bad start and this relationship isn't going to work.

~~~
walexander
If that's a criteria for you when looking for an employer, then that's your
choice, but I personally would never expect such a thing.

The last time I had to interview (being an engineer), I was sent 7 resumes on
a Monday for interviews being conducted on a Wednesday. I checked out any
links they put on their resume, apps in the appstore, etc. If they did not
feel they could be bothered to tell me about something, then it will remain a
mystery to me.

~~~
mgkimsal
"I checked out any links they put on their resume"

So... you did research on someone that made themselves researchable. Good job.
That's what I expect, and I'd expect that you'd expect that too.

~~~
salemh
It wasn't clear from your original post that your links were in your CV /
resume. Should be a lesson to those who want to showcase their "side"
projects, LinkedIn profile (heavily checked now days), to put these ON your
resume. I consistently fidn in screening Software, Web Dev's and designers
asking them if they have an online profile, github, LinkedIn that the answer
is yes, but is absent from the resume.

------
ecaron
Sites like Monster are going the way of the yellow pages. And just like you
could replace the yellow pages with asking neighbors who they recommend, there
is a balance between finding good sources (using Google to find a plumber,
using Indeed/LinkUp* to find jobs) and understanding the value of networking.

There is a reason CareerBuilder drops millions on a SuperBowl ad each year and
Monster spent over $1.2M at an employer party in Las Vegas this last weekend.
If all jobseekers knew what Nick discovered, there'd be no reason for these
websites to exist!

 _Yes, I work at LinkUp - but since anyone would include it I figured I'd be
forgiven for including it_

~~~
dpritchett
First I've heard of your site. How is it different from Indeed?

~~~
ecaron
I emailed you the details so I'm not taking this thread OT (and so I don't
look like I'm spamming HN.) If anyone else has this question, eric at linkup
dot com is a good way to reach me.

~~~
aaronblohowiak
It is relevant and not spam; please share the answer here.

------
geebee
I'd like to make this resolution as well. No more sending a resume to people
who don't know me, no more technical screening because they have no idea how I
code, no more "getting to know you" lunches because, well, they don't know me.

It takes quite a bit of effort, so I might not manage to pull this off.
Applying for jobs and posting positions on job boards are different sides of
the same lazy coin. It takes a lot of talent and effort to become a developer
with such an excellent network and reputation that you can generate employment
opportunities with a phone call. This is true on the other side as well - many
companies just don't have the talent and/or aren't willing to put in the time
to get to know who the good developers are. Both sides have to be deeply
engaged in the community.

There's a practical issue here, of course - there just may be opportunities
that you want to pursue, and a resume, phone screen, technical grilling, and
so forth may be the best way to go. And some companies have to staff up so
quickly that they just feel like the have to cast a wider net. But both cases
do raise certain warning flags... if you're a developer, why aren't you
generating offers that interest you from within your own network? If you're an
employer, why are you expanding so rapidly that you're unable to recruit from
a reliable network?

In the best case scenario, almost all of the above is unnecessary because
you've already worked together, so there's no need to take estimates and make
guesses about what kind of employer/employee a new prospect would be.

~~~
alexro
I wish you luck, but also I hope that good employers don't closure on the
people which they know already, simply because it would mean I cannot come to
your place and find a good job straight away, like I always did when I moved
across my country first and then into a foreign country.

~~~
geebee
I don't think they would. Recruiting from networks is a good thing to strive
for, but it would become a bad practice without room for exceptions. Even
37Signals, a big proponent of knowing the people you hire before you hire
them, does put out the occasional job posting/recruitment ad on its blog.

------
fedorabbit
I kind realized that a while ago, but it is difficult for nerd like me to
leave computer and go meet people... what's to talk about? "I just found this
snippet it's kinda fun!" ? :(

~~~
parfe
Then it might be time to explore some other hobbies. There are non-computer
related things do that don't require you to be in shape and that includes
actually getting in shape! Fly an RC helicopter, start hiking, volunteer at
the soup kitchen. No one is going to care about some snippet of code but
that's your fault for being so 1-dimensional

If all you have for work and pleasure involves sitting at a computer then you
are cutting out a large part of being alive. Plus you are risking your health.
You typecast yourself as a nerd but that does not mean you must handcuff
yourself to a computer desk.

~~~
fedorabbit
It's like addiction actually. need adjustment! Good advice!

~~~
roundsquare
I'm going to suggest indoor* wall climbing as a hobby. Lots of nerds like it
because its actually very analytic. Doing a particular climb often requires
analyzing where the hand/foot holds are and figuring out the best way to use
them. If you've ever done any work in AI, you run into problems where you its
hard to tell if you have a bug in your code or if your learning algorithm
isn't very good. Its the same with climbing: is my method bad or am I just
doing it wrong?

Edit: one other benefit, if you find a wall you can just go during its open
hours and meet people after you get there. In my experience, people will see
you struggle with something and swing by to give you a quick tip ("try putting
your feet a bit higher", "try using your left hand over here", etc...)

*Indoor because its less intimidating and the walls often have custom made climbs for various skill levels.

------
younata
Every job I've had, I got through personal connections.

I did event videography up until last fall (went away to college), every gig I
got was because I knew person planning it (theatre: I knew the director,
weddings: I knew the wedding planner)

I had a day job working at subway last summer. I got the job by going to the
manager (whom I've known for many years) and asking for the job.

My current internship is at the same company my father works at. I went to the
CTO and asked for an internship. It probably helped that my dad works there.

I've also applied for several jobs. Every job I applied for at my college I
was turned down for, every other internship I applied for told me "lol,
freshman".

------
ajslater
This is very strange advice. I've never gotten a job from an acquaintance and
am never likely to. There's a much bigger pool of jobs from people you don't
know and a much better chance of a good match being made somewhere in that
pool. The numbers are obviously in your favor despite the fact that people
you've worked with know you're good. Its unlikely that you and people you know
just happen to want to do the exact same thing at the exact same time with
everyone else looking to recruit you.

I'd also feel really weird getting a job via acquaintance. Its like a kind of
nepotism I don't want or need.

------
kposehn
Interesting - I haven't applied for a job in 3.5 years (because I own my own
company) but at the same time, if I were to apply for a job...I wouldn't.

There's no real point. Don't bother trying to just do the same damn thing
everyone else has done. Recruiters and hiring managers get 1k+ resumes a day.

Do something crazy, something nuts. Stand out from the crowd. The last thing
you want to do is blend in because you just turn into another sheet of paper
in the pile, even if you are near the top!

I'm going to put forth an example here: my cousin just graduated from high
school in Grant's Pass Oregon. Small school, small town.

He's going to Oxford.

OXFORD.

Good for him! And he asked me what he should do for a graduation speech. I
said "do something they'll never forget - make them remember you in your town
forever"

His graduation speech was a two-parter with his best friend. The first part
was an adaptation of "who's on first" and the second part was Dr. Seuss.

They'll never forget him, and they are sad he is leaving.

Do the same thing when applying for a job. You won't regret it.

(unless it isn't your style - it might be weird then and as my wife said just
now, "context is king")

------
radarsat1
Yes, this is an old concept called "networking". Unfortunately not everyone's
very good at it, and unfortunately not being good at networking doesn't mean
you wouldn't be good at the job in question. But that's life... social
connections are indeed an important factor in all walks of life, and not
something you learn in any classroom. It's a hard lesson for some of us.

------
mkramlich
I completely agree with the article. Not a week goes by where I don't see this
reinforced further. Just had lunch today with a guy I met through a meetup,
and it might lead to paying work of some kind if I wanted it. A lot of the
stereotypical application process and resume paradigm is all about filtering
out and sorting random strangers who ping you across the transom. And it's
only a proxy for the thing you want, not the thing you want directly. By going
around that, by avoiding it, you avoid a lot of the pain and inefficiency
that's experienced on both sides of the table. Go meet people directly. Show
them what you're like. Smile. Laugh. Be kind. Don't smell bad. Be efficient.
Do good work. Put examples of your stuff out there. Be findable. Be ambient.
Increase your "surface area" and more opportunities will come to you. And if
you're prepared when those opportunities present themselves, and you recognize
them, you suddenly experience "luck" (where luck = preparation + opportunity.)

------
motters
The trouble with this strategy is that it's really just cronyism - employing
your friends and relations - rather than trying to do a less heavily biased
search for the best candidate. Resumes/CVs, imperfect though they are, at
least represent a sort of level playing field, whereas employing your friends
via opaque methods is blatantly cronyistic.

~~~
aik
Not necessarily. My company is often hiring and I have friends who potentially
need jobs, however unless I don't think they would be a good (or great) fit, I
probably wouldn't mention it to them.

~~~
motters
In that case the thing you need to ask yourself is whether you're employing
the person because they're the best from a range of possible candidates, or
whether you're employing them merely because they're your friend.

------
OliverSteenbuck
sounds like a good strategy, at every job I've worked the first question
following a statement of "We need more people" was "Does anybody know somebody
who would fit in here ?"

~~~
slindsey
Every time I say "I know the perfect person", my bosses say, "No, we need to
'put the feelers out' and compare. There's no way to know if your guy is
perfect without interviewing to see who's out there."

~~~
keithnoizu
It's silly. They need to feel useful. This reminds me of some previous
employers who always breathed down my neck to lay off our current developers
and find newer faster developers.

Sometimes you should go for what you have, especially if its highly competent,
is vouched for by a valued employee and meets your requirements.

------
fenak
agree w/ the other ones... that depends a lot, and it's not that easy here in
brazil.

------
tomtom101
Even better - don't try and get a job, create them.

------
lwat
Personally I've never applied for a job (I'm 32 now) and in our company the
very first thing we do is ask around for personal recommendations when hiring
new staff. Advertising the job is the last resort and usually gives the worst
results.

