
Why Developing Serious Relationships in Your 20s Matters - pdufour
https://medium.com/architecting-a-life/cff4161f551c
======
jdietrich
How about we all just chill the fuck out?

Stop worrying about whether you've left it too late to be the next Zuckerberg.
Stop worrying about whether you've sacrificed your future happiness on the
temple of Mammon. Just live your damned life, one day at a time. If you think
that everything is going fine, you're probably right; If you think that things
are all fucked up, you're also probably right.

Stop letting douchebags with blogs give you life advice. They don't know you,
they don't know your life, they probably don't know much of anything. For all
their bravado, they're working from a sample size of one, just like everyone
else.

I'm sick of all these lifestyle posts on HN that are full of absolutism and
false certitude. I'm sick of this attitude that your life is a dismal failure
if it isn't micro-managed down to the last millisecond. I'm sick of being
given life advice by weathly, privileged Americans who think they're wise
because they've made it to their thirties without massively fucking anything
up.

~~~
tferris
> How about we all just chill the fuck out?

That's no option. At least for men.

Men are restless hunters and highly competitive creatures. Men thrive when
taking risks, when being in a fight and when they finally won and dominate
their peers. As sad it sounds this is what we need and make us happy. We can
have breaks from time to time like working as dull office drones avoiding any
risks and watching Youporn before bedtime but we degenerate when this state of
boredom sticks for longer time. Even if Zuckerberg, its Facebook and the
constant flow of successes of peers on the FB news feed drives many into
depression, men need this to get out of their comfort zone and start fighting.

(Besides, I think that the original article is crap as many lifestyle advices)

~~~
anonymous
Posts like yours make me want to cut off my penis and write "Eunuch" under
"Sex" on my ID. But I won't, because the government won't let me first, and
because I'm more of a chill kind of person, second.

~~~
tferris
> make me want to cut off my penis and write "Eunuch" under "Sex" on my ID.

Just getting your testicles removed would do the job too -- but seriously,
please get some advice before doing anything.

------
Claudus
I've pursued many women in my life, and failed. I'm not especially tall, good
looking, or rich, but I am smart, somewhat charismatic, and have a solid
character.

Everything I've done in my adult life has been motivated by my desire to be
attractive to women that I'm interested in; studying hard to get good grades,
going to grad school, pursuing good employment, developing my personal and
social skills, working out, everything. I'm getting better all the time, and I
see my successes, but now in my 30s I'm not sure what the message is here.

Should I have just grabbed any woman that would have me, even if I'm not
interested in them for the sole purpose of "developing a serious
relationship"?

~~~
tomp
Contrary to popular belief, looks don't matter to everybody. Some women go for
tall, muscular men, some go for rich guys, but I don't want either of those; I
like people if they can hold an interesting conversation and not get annoyed
or upset with things that don't really matter in life, and I want a woman that
likes me because of those same reasons.

But it took me a long time to reach this conclusion. I used to work out in
order to be more attractive, but stopped, because I didn't like it and it
seemed like a chore without proper motivation (plus, having some extra fat is
good health-wise and for enjoying water sports); now I sometimes work out
because I want to get better in sports. I studied pick-up and seduction, but
realized that most of it is just games and lies, and that I don't have in me
whatever is necessary to use those to attract people. Also, whatever success
I've achieved, I tried to keep it secret for as long as possible, because I
didn't want people, girls especially, to like me because of the fortunate life
circumstances I had encountered.

For the past two years, I've been single. And picky; I've only pursued women
that I was totally attracted to. I didn't seduce anyone; that means
pretending, but I was just being me. I went out a lot, met new people, tried
new things, went to events I wouldn't normally go. If I saw someone I liked, I
tried to meet her, but only rarely managed to even talk to her. There were
many failures; rejections, or I didn't like her, but ultimately there is only
one reason: we weren't compatible. Then, all of a sudden, I met someone,
completely unexpectedly, and I didn't even think I would like her initially
(I've lost all hope). But she totally surprised me, she's the best girl ever.

I hope this helps; I tried following other people's advice and accept their
values, but I couldn't. Then, I lived life according to my values and tried to
meet people compatible with _me_. Initially, I've failed, but I kept my
standards, and finally, I've met someone special. Do what you want, meet
people, be friendly and honest, and someday, you will meet someone who is
awesome beyond your wildest dreams!

~~~
itistoday2
All my upvotes are go to you! :)

------
GuiA
This article reminds me of a book I recently read: "The Defining Decade: Why
Your Twenties Matter" by Meg Jay– I highly recommend it to anyone in their
20s.

Some portions of it apply more to the 20-something working at Starbucks while
waiting for his band to make it big, and the HN crowd won't relate much to
that, but there's plenty of other solid advice that I definitely related to.

I'm not usually big on the self-help books, but here it's a psychologist
talking about examples she's had of patients dealing with their
personal/professional/love life and how they addressed those things. It's a
quick read- recommended.

~~~
richardjordan
I think a lot of startup folks are very much like the barista waiting for the
record label to discover him and his buddies' musical talents. It's a good
analogy actually.

~~~
hack_edu
Except 4x the average income.

~~~
richardjordan
Mostly... but I know a lot that would do better to take the barista job :-/
</gallows-humor>

------
rawland
Define a serious relationship! What's the significant property? A duration
over 6 months? Or you already moved together? That's a difficult thing to do.

As far as I understood, Elizabeth is somewhere near her 40ies and I'm not sure
if she even developed her serious relationship in her 30ies, as she is quite
ambitious herself and comments, that she met her significant other at work...
that happens a lot. But what really surprised me, that this almost got her
and/or the other fired. I know a large amount of couples, who work at the same
place and everything is fine!

And most importantly: What if, there was not this girl. This guy?

For me there was not this girl and I am 30. Of course, I had serious beautiful
relationships with all the grinding imposed by one or two ambitious humans and
also the nicer sides. But in the end, I'm single now and love to work on
ambitious projects where I meet ambitious people!

Be, who you are and be proud of that. Love will hit you anyway and there is no
need for a "task" or the hassle of developing serious relationships in your
20ies. It can happen to you any time, no matter of age. Even in your 80ies. If
you are not convinced, watch this:

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1602620/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1>

------
rbkillea
I found this honestly repulsive. It's one thing to shun those who would steer
someone away from what feels natural, and it's another to offer life advice
based on what one perceives to be the norm. Just because you got hitched early
doesn't mean I want/have to.

~~~
pdufour
> it's another to offer life advice based on what one perceives to be the
> norm.

But isn't that the case when anyone gives life advice? Everyone has their own
own perceptions of norms.

~~~
rbkillea
Not if the life advice is any good. It's like your maternal figure always told
you, "If your friends were jumping off a bridge, would YOU?" (paraphrased)

------
Camillo
Over the past few days, several articles about how crucial your 20s are have
been posted to HN. I find them quite depressing. I can only hope that the blog
cycle is like the news cycle, and that these posts will stop once it stops
being the topic of the week.

~~~
beaner
I know. I thought I wasn't supposed to have introspective life crises until
middle age. At 27, this wave of 20s themed self improvement/"watch out"
articles are making me feel like a failure the same way Calvin Klein ads make
me feel like I'll never be attractive.

The most depressing part about the article is that it starts out with the
assumptions that you have opportunities for relationships available to you
that you're willingly passing on and that you're getting laid on "a regular
basis".

Yeah, write me an article on how to satisfy your assumptions first, and then
I'll follow whatever advice you've got about what comes afterward.

------
dubfan
This article is the most depressing thing I've read in a long time. It's like
it hit on all of my inadequacies and faults, and told me that because of them,
I am fucked.

~~~
antimatter
You and me both man. I feel terrible now.

------
brianwillis
This is pretty personal stuff to say using an account that's tied to my real
name, but hey, we're all friends here now, so why not.

I'm in the target demographic for this post (I turn 29 on Tuesday), and I'm
seriously considering making a conscious decision to be permanently single.

I understand that people find a lot of happiness in relationships, but I just
don't think I'm capable of making room in my life for another person, and I
don't think I'd make a particularly good boyfriend. I'd have to become a
dramatically better person - something I don't know if I have it in me to do.

Does this make me somehow broken? Are there others who feel this way too?

~~~
Crake
I actually relate rather strongly to your post...I've eventually come to the
conclusion that there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to stay single.
I feel that sometimes people put too much emphasis on sex and relationships as
a mandatory part of a successful life.

Girlfriends take up a LOT of time. If you find someone who's a perfect match,
then go for it. But scooping out valuable time in your life for a relationship
that's merely ho-hum probably isn't worth it. For people who are very smart,
like a good portion of the tech crowd, the relative stupidity of the general
population eliminates a good portion of women, too, which certainly
exacerbates the situation.

Mathematically speaking, I know the chances of me finding a long term
significant other are very small. My last girlfriend was an electrical
engineer, and she moved to the midwest from the east coast. It was great while
it lasted, but she was literally the only attractive smart and technical
person I've ever met in this area who was interested in people like me.
Whenever I see my friends with their girlfriends, it always makes me feel a
bit lonely. I know that logically speaking, it's not something I can or should
have, since I don't think I'd make a very good significant other (for some
difficult personal reasons). But it's still something that bothers me at
night.

~~~
itistoday2
(disclaimer: not a shill) go on okc, i didz have success! (took a few
months... be patient). also, if you really want it, be willing to look outside
your area. mine was several states away but totally worth it!

~~~
Crake
Ah, that's where I found my EE girlfriend, actually. I don't think I'd have
had even that without OKC.

------
denzil_correa
> Jobs are replaceable. People you truly love are not.

Thanks for sharing. A wonderful article which summarizes the whole purpose of
why we live. Work should be the means to the living experience rather than the
ONLY living experience.

~~~
throwaway
> Jobs are replaceable. People you truly love are not.

It is strange we suggest this only to people who are not pursuing arts. May be
it does exist some shallowness to 'jobs' but I fail to see it.

------
nilkn
I chose not to move out to the Valley so I could stay in a great relationship,
and it has proved to be an extremely good decision. My life would not be
nearly as enriched as it is if all I did was work, and had I moved there I too
probably would have fallen into the trap of putting career above everything
else. My bank account isn't quite as fat as it could be had I moved there, but
then again I pay half the rent--less, actually--and spend less on pretty much
everything else as well, not to mention I have no state income tax, and I
still get a pretty high salary.

That said, I understand everybody is different. Although I will say that I too
thought I was somebody who didn't need a relationship. I changed my mind when
I fell into a great one and saw first hand what it had to offer.

There's also a quality to young love that I don't think you could ever find
once you hit middle age. At the risk of sounding really shallow, young people
are much more beautiful on average. But it's not just that. The experience of
growing old with someone is considerably different from meeting someone when
you've both already aged a good amount. These are experiences that you will
never be able to have if you put them off for too long. The same cannot be
said of work.

~~~
richardjordan
I think you make a good point. It's the innocence and naivety of young love as
well that's something irreplaceable as you age and life takes its toll. It's
something beautiful to hold on to whether you win or lose at it, and it's a
life experience worthwhile.

------
doctorpangloss
So many college graduates escape to Silicon Valley precisely to avoid these
standard expectations for romance.

The article is wrong about what holds back relationships for 20s engineers. It
isn't careerism as she claims. It's that the engineer is a militant
libertarian, an autistic savant or a polymath of software development.

No normal woman wants to date a passionately unempathetic man. If you can't
sympathize with poor people, or things that don't interest you (like
humanities majors), how are you supposed to convince a normal woman you care
about her feelings and her passions in spite of your voracious narcissism and
ego?

OkCupid and polyamory are our sexual revolution, not "affairs." IVFs and
surrogates are our reproductive revolutions. Technology exists to make the
frightening Unempathetic Man capable of reproducing himself (and feeling
sexually satisfied).

I feel extraordinarily lucky that I got to date a normal white girl my age at
my school from 20-22 in college. I'm glad we still love each other as adults.
I look down Mass Ave and wonder in terror how different my life would be if
the women I met thought having two simultaneous boyfriends was okay.

------
Claudus
I find this article a little condescending and trite, most of the things you
"need to learn" are skills you develop from interacting with people in
general, not just in personal romantic relationships.

------
jacques_chester
If you view it as a deadline item to tick off a list, is it really a
relationship?

~~~
vertr
I don't follow.

~~~
atarian
Is your relationship authentic if you're forcing to put yourself in one before
you hit 30?

~~~
richardjordan
I don't think that is what the OP's saying at all. I think the point is that
shutting yourself in to work on code 24/7 startup after startup for year after
year (which is very easy to do in Silicon Valley - you look up and five years
went by) is going to limit you at a time when the most important skills you
need for your long term happiness are being learned.

~~~
atarian
I know that's what the OP meant and I agree with what she's saying. I was just
translating what <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5273223> was saying to
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5273250>

------
arcatek
I started a serious relationship three years ago, and it just ended few weeks
ago when my ex cheated on me with one of my friend while I was in an exchange
country.

Looking backward, there was a few signs of eventual disaster, but the
conclusion was very unexpected (for me, my friends, her friends, and even her
family).

However, despite the double betrayal, I think I have learned a lot from the
whole experience (including the three years before the break-up). Not simply
about relationships, but also about myself. So I kind of agree: if you can
have a serious relationship, see it as an occasion to grow up. And if it
doesn't work (and it seems that it probably won't, sadly :(), see it as
another occasion to grow up. Don't be afraid of an eventual disappointement.

Disclosure: was my first relation. Definitely not an expert.

~~~
richardjordan
You never become an expert no matter how many times you level up. The
experiences are still worth it though :-)

------
jacquesc
Responding to: "deathbed wishes rarely include, 'If only I had put another
twenty hours a week in at the office! That slightly cleaner product release
would have made all the difference.'"

Not that it matters all that much, but I honestly believe deathbed wishes
often include "I wish I had more of an impact on the world". You can get that
through relationships (by procreating), or you can get that through building
stuff. Or a combination of both.

Trying to trivialize the hard work people do to release products is like
trivializing the time people spend at the gym or the salon, attempting to stay
attractive in order to establish better relationships.

It's a small part of something larger. Trying to change the world by building
stuff is not something to be ashamed of.

------
moocow01
I can only speak from my own experience but I found myself largely nodding my
head (I've recently joined the early thirties crowd).

I worked in SV right out of college - Facebook was basically a blip on the
radar and the coolest mobile phones still had physical buttons. I worked my
ass off the first few years mostly because I had landed a great paying job
(meaning I no longer was making 12/hr) and had no idea what kind of
performance was not good enough. It was really fun and exciting for a while. I
was fortunate to meet and marry someone that was right for me during my "later
years" in SV. Being a proud geek I have been in a few relationships before but
was not and am still not a relationship guru. The only thing I do know is that
a (real, long-term) relationship will most likely push both of you to the max
on everything... fun, happiness, stress, frustration, disappointment, etc,
etc. While it has always had its ups and downs I feel very fortunate - the
tech stuff is fun, I still enjoy it but the relationship, family, kids etc
makes life really dynamic (sometimes in ways you may not like but its part of
the deal).

I know I may sound like an old man but I think Id tell any aspiring techie
coming out of school to try to make it a priority to figure out if they want
to be married (and if so obviously to whom) and if they want to have kids. (As
a note there is nothing wrong with not wanting these things) From my own
experience I've felt that in your 20s (within the tech world) there are mostly
only socioeconomic influences that deter you from going that route whether its
the cost of living in the city or a professional dream that seemingly needs
your full-time dedication. While it is not a ticking time bomb there
definitely are certainly some fuzzy limits on the time you have to do these
things that seem to come faster than you might think. (I dont want to get into
a discussion about menopause or marriage later in life but I think its healthy
to recognize the marriage/kids stuff does slowly get progressively harder
later in life for most people).

Anyhow for me around 30 life started to look a little bit different to me. I
like my work but its just a piece of my life. I used to spend 90% of my time
working in tech or going home and playing with tech. I still do so to some
degree but I have to admit that Im glad its no longer my only primary thing Im
involved with.

------
tferris
Saw this thread when it had just 2 points and hoped it won't get upvoted since
it's just -- sorry to say -- a useless post full of misinformation without
delivering any message. I highly doubt the author has enough experience with
building relationships, getting laid, get the right one and so on:

Now, since it's on the front page my view. You have two options:

Either you spend your time in your early 20s chasing women and spending all
your time on building relationships and getting laid or:

Start at least 5 startups until you are 25 and hope that one of them gets kind
of profitable or even better and you do an exit. Starting later is getting
harder and harder, you are spoiled by high salaries and laid back office work
and suddenly you have a child and it's getting to risky to start anything. The
experience you make as an employee hardly help you as an entrepreneur but you
need to fail often as an entrepreneur -- every failed startup brings you tons
of experience and closer to a successful company.

Back to the girls: if you got successful with your startups you don't have to
think about relationships and girls -- you'll send so much self-confidence and
they're will be tons of opportunities. And even if you still do startups which
didn't succeed you have much more to tell then any office drone. You'll have
much more opportunities than those who desperately looking for the SO without
having a life or anything to tell. That doesn't mean that you should omit any
social life or getting laid while building a startup, it just means don't
focus on this, focus on being an entrepreneur.

------
jwingy
I did a startup then got out for precisely the same reasons the author states.

You won't always be young, but a startup at any age is always possible. Since
money will never be able to buy time (though I'd love to see a time machine or
a reversal of aging), I chose the former. I don't regret doing a startup, but
I'm happy where I'm at today. Getting my head out of the rat race has been one
of the best decision I've ever made.

------
Tichy
Do most people really live like that in their twenties? Getting laid all the
time, unstable relationships and so on? I kind of thought that there was a lot
of media hype in that story.

Anyway, I think the main thing is that having kids in your thirties is a lot
more stressful, in the sense that you usually want to have a stable
relationship before having kids together, and time is running out. There is
that biological clock ticking, at least for women - while men have more
options, it means having to find a significantly younger woman to have
children with.

And once you have children, you realize that it would have been nice to be
younger. It means being in better shape to play with your kids, being able to
be there for them longer, and a higher chance to experience grandchildren.

------
richardjordan
The broad point here is a very important one.

I came to Silicon Valley in my late 20s. I'd already had a lot of relationship
ups and downs. I got married not long after getting here. I'm now, um,
older...

It's great for folks who are fresh out of college that a bunch of middle-aged
VCs who missed the boat on Zuckerberg because after the dot.com boom they were
"playing it safe" backing their MBA buddies in startups which went nowhere,
are now desperately trying to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted
and find the next Zuckerberg by investing in very young entrepreneurs. It's
great. There is some brilliant innovative consumer apps that have come from
this - diamonds in a pile of rhinestones admittedly, but they're real.

When I was 22 and my best friend were 21 we were being laughed out of every
funding source we could find by suggesting that (this is in 1993/4 mind you)
we set up an "Internet Service Provider" because we were European Physicists
when the world wide web was created by and for European Physicists and we
thought it was going to be big. "What is this Internet thing? ...It's an
American fad, going nowhere... you're just two young techies with no business
experience... etc." I am genuinely glad the environment is better today than
it was then.

However (yeah there's a but)... it's breeding a generation of young technical
talent burnt out on mediocre over-angel-funded startups with little real world
life or experience. It's not that either end of the spectrum is right - it's
that we've gone too far past a happy medium.

I used to run an internship program and I'd advise the young undergrads that
they should get out and do the things they want to do after college, take
risks, travel while you can and while you're young. So long as you have a good
narrative, have learned a lot from your experiences, and take the opportunity
to grow up and gain perspective on the world, people will forgive almost
anything before you're thirtieth birthday so long as you're prepared to
knuckle down and focus by then.

I don't think that's true today. We've created an environment where to be a
first time entrepreneur over thirty is seen as questionable. By 40 even with
experience if you haven't already had a home run it's VERY difficult to get
financial backing right now. This is irrational of course. The idea that real
world experience dulls your blade which would otherwise have been fresh, right
out of college, is silly.

I am happy that I didn't spend my 20s just getting burned out. After we
couldn't get our startup off the ground, we finished our degrees, did some
real world work, got some life experience, and I don't think either of us was
worse for it as a person.

I meet a lot of people looking around in their thirties and realizing, like
this article says, that they've never really learned the broad range of
interpersonal skills and relationship skills outside of the startup bubble.

Do what you love to do for work. Absolutely. But don't lay on your death bed
wishing you'd worked less and loved more. Really. Don't do that.

~~~
yesimahuman
I've found I travel and do more interesting things running a company than when
I had a normal job or when I was a student. And the freedom of running an
internet company means I could do it anywhere I want and still get paid
(though to be honest, I don't utilize that much yet).

~~~
spullara
Cold, Mexican tile.

------
invalidOrTaken
Hmm---a bunch of 20s-40s men, well-versed in an area traditionally associated
with lack of sex appeal, pursuing fame and fortune by taking on risk.

This is _not_ that hard to parse.

------
xijuan
Reading the article and reading the comments almost gave me a panic attack.
Just broke up for real today (the breakup dragged on for few months.)... 3.5
years of relationship ended for reasons that I can never never understand..
Why is relationship so hard?

~~~
polarix
I'm guessing you're male, and that's why. Also, good luck and keep going.

~~~
meric
I don't think so, [her] first name is "cathy".

~~~
xijuan
Thanks for pointing that out! Hahaha. Xijuan is actually my first name but it
is my Chinese name.

------
adebelov
Zuck spent 50 minutes with his girlfriend a week when he was starting
Facebook.

~~~
boyter
Seriously try that on a girl and let me know how it works out for you. Perhaps
if you have as much coverage as Facebook in the media it might work but most
likely she would dump you and with good reason. Heck I know I would. What's
the point of a relationship with only that much time together.

------
chookrl
I think this isn't really a 20s issue. You should always seek balance.

------
polarix
Gender is so unbelievably, incredibly evil. Ban it until it's consensual.

------
itistoday2
> It’s not a question of whether each of these things will happen; it’s a
> question of when.

Don't like how she comes off as "super relationship expert full of wisdom"
here. I don't care how many relationships she's had, or how old she is, not
all relationships are created equal, and these things she calls
"inevitabilities", while certainly common, are _not_ inevitable. Being in a
relationship with that mindset could just turn it into a self-fulling
prophesy.

As just one easy example, you don't have to have children, so her comment
about kids doesn't apply to any couple that decides not to have kids.

~~~
richardjordan
I think that's failing to see the wood for the trees. She's pointing out a
basket of serious problems people in long term relationships face... problems
that when you're 20 seem distant or even irrelevant but by the time you hit 40
you nod your head and if you haven't had the exact same problem it's a good
analogy for one you did have, because long term relationships - ones that last
decades not months - are very hard and take a lot of learning.

It's not super relationship expert full of wisdom. It's the stuff the old
people in your family used to tell you round the fireplace when we all had
multi-generational homes and wisdom was passed down from generation to
generation. Something we've lost today. The difference is you can't get mad at
your gran for telling you stuff you don't want to hear.

~~~
itistoday2
I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. If you look at what I said, I wasn't
really taking issue with the overall theme of her message, I was taking issue
with how she chose to express it and some of the specific assertions she made.
Gran and this woman would be making the same mistake: assuming that their life
experience is somehow representative of the life experience of someone else.
Sure, it's nice to listen to others and learn from the lessons they learned,
but don't go telling others that they will have the same experiences you had,
as though they are inevitabilities. I'd get mad at gran if she had said that
too.

