
Too old to start web programming career? - leonardc
hi folks,
i'd really appreciate anyones feedback/advice to help me out of a career choice dilemma. last year after a brief(ish) spell of unemployment i started a masters in e-business to boost my career prospects. i am now 33 and about to graduate soon.  thing is, i really started to get into the programming side of things - learning php, mysql, javascript etc, and starting to teach myself python and unix programming. Now, i can't see myself going back to a business oriented career having tasted  such delights. should i leave the web dev/programing to the bright young things or  can i find a niche for myself somewhere? getting experience is more important than the salary. all comments/opinions/exhortations to wake up and smell the coffee will be very gratefully received. thanks in advance.
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iamelgringo
If you're too old at 33, then I'm too old at 34. :) I'm an ER nurse by trade,
but I'm one or two semesters shy of finishing my degree in CS. I'm going back
and getting in touch with my inner geek after years of having a "safe" job. I
was talked out of getting into CS in 1992, because "there's not that much need
for computer programmers". Sigh... I'd only recently moved to the states from
overseas, so I believed them. Argh!

Anyway, what I'm focused on now is web development. There's nothing to stop us
from learning this stuff. All of the important training materials for these
technologies are on line or on Safari. There _is_ a pretty steep learning
curve, and expect it to take a while to become really proficient at it, but go
for it.

And, I've spent the last 3 years paying off debt, moving to Silicon Valley,
and getting ready to be a founder as soon as I'm done with school. So, don't
let the kids scare you off. Dive on in, the water's great. :)

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mathogre
I turned 50 last September. Ten years earlier I started playing with Linux and
learned very quickly I knew nothing about Unix. In 5 months I was rolling my
own kernels, mainly out of need; apmd wasn't in the default Red Hat kernel,
and I needed it for my laptop. A few months after that I was one of Those
People who helped bring Linux into the corporate world when people could get
fired for having done so.

Five years ago I proposed - and was awarded - a research project at work
(internal r&d money). I chose at that time to use Python to develop a tool to
design airspace for air traffic control purposes. I didn't know Python other
than having played with it in console mode. In my experience it was the
language to use, and it worked like a champ for us.

I'll "retire" in 15 years. When I do so, I fully intend to be employable at
that time (re: current).

Start now. Get into it. 33 isn't too old to start, but it is too young to
stop.

Btw, I have a BS in applied math from a small state college - Keene State
College in NH. Degrees from good schools might help, but passion for what you
do can go a very long way. (^_^) Go for it and good luck!!!!

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nostrademons
It's harder to compete on technical merit, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't
do it.

I'll quote Drucker again here: "Concentrate on what you're good at." At 33,
you've probably got a decent amount of experience in the business world, plus
some additional formal education. Work on finding and solving problems that
aren't apparent to the young turks just out of college, because they don't
have the work experience. I'm 26 and I've had 2 salaried jobs, both in the
computer field. There are whole industries that I've never worked in - those
are probably ripe for a web solution, because you don't have swarms of college
kids picking over every opportunity.

Don't expect to compete in the web2.0/social networking sphere. The kids that
are 2 years out of college still have friends in that demographic, they grew
up with the technology, and so they know more about both the technology and
the market. Look for markets that all the young technophiles know nothing
about.

~~~
ojbyrne
44 years old when I built digg. Is that competing in the web2.0/social
networking sphere?

The stuff that happened after we were funded (I've left the company) probably
had a lot to do with my age, and the type of conventional wisdom (i.e.
bullshit) that is out there and espoused by some of these commenters.

Remember that on the internet, noone knows you're a dog (or an old dog).

~~~
m0nty
As a 41-yr old hacker (and late-comer to the game; I didn't start until I was
well into my 20s) I'd just like to thank you for sticking up for us "old-
timers." It really bothers me that people think you're past it when you get
past 35 or so. 'Scuse me if I'm not dead yet and have no intention of acting
as though I am.

My project is at <http://surftrackr.net/> It won't ever make me rich, but (a)
that's not the point, and (b) it's my way of making a contribution. While
there are programmers out there who can do a better or worse job than I have,
I can guarantee the differentiating factor is not their age.

~~~
raju
I too, started late in the game. With a brief introduction to Basic in school,
and some programming classes in undergrad, I graduated with a Bachelors in
Production Engineering, and it was after that I realized that computers (and
programming) is where I felt just right. I worked on my first major (Java)
project in grad school when I was 21. Haven't looked back since and over the
years have learned several languages.

I will admit though, that a)starting late b)not having a formal education in
computer sciences is a little frustrating at times. I spend my evenings trying
to play catch up with those who had a head start (reading up on compilers,
language design, even SICP). Don't get me wrong, I am still as fascinated with
computers as I was 8 years ago (I turn 30 today, the 1st actually), but every
time I read a brilliant comment on a language or a framework on YC News, I
know I have a long way to go before I will have that level of competence and
understanding.

To answer your question, I don't think its never too late to pursue your
passion. In the long run, when you look back, you would rather see having
spent time doing things you loved to do, rather than spending a majority of
your life as a zombie, in pursuit of a paycheck than anything else.

From another late starter, I can only wish you the very best.

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davidw
Why don't you combine the two?

IMO the people who do the best are those that have more than one area of
expertise. In other words: no business wants to buy software. They don't care
about it at all. What they want is something that will help their business,
and someone who knows both the software and the business is better able to
connect the two.

BTW, ditch the PHP and Mysql and look at some other stuff like Ruby on Rails,
Django, Postgresql, and, yes, Javascript. Some PHP won't hurt, but I don't
think it's the "state of the art", although you can certainly still get things
done with it.

~~~
butterfi
While ruby and python are definitely more sexy (and by extension rails and
django), I think its a mistake to dismiss PHP and MySQL has not being worthy
of study. Take a look at the job boards and see what people are looking for. I
think you'll see far more employers looking for MySQL and PHP skills then
Postgres and Ruby/Python. For example, It seems like Drupal developers can
write their own tickets right now (drupal is a CMS written in PHP/MySQL). You
might be better off looking into CMS/frameworks like Drupal or Django.

As a 42 year old developer, I say go for it. You have other skills you bring
with you. Frankly, these days I look for people who demonstrate maturity and
life-long learning skills more then I do a specific skill-set.

~~~
davidw
Quantity isn't an indicator of quality.

~~~
apathy
Seconded -- there are plenty of godawful Java jobs out there, none of which
you likely want. (Unless it's just another tool used for certain libraries in
certain applications)

PHP isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be, especially PHP5. It has a
horrible reputation due to some very bad design 'decisions' made early on, but
it has got a lot better.

I was talking with some of the core devs on #drupal last night and plenty of
them are well aware of RoR and its utility -- web _applications_ are very easy
to write and deploy in Rails, but a big modular CMS like Drupal takes a lot of
work to do it right. It's iterative, it benefits from a network effect in
terms of modules, and frankly it kicks the shit out of Radiant, Bricolage, and
any other solution I've used (including hand-rolled jobbies) for that
particular problem. So, right tool for the job... it's surprising to me that
'Drupal developers can write their own ticket' because it's actually very easy
to use and code to.

Ruby and Rails are beginning to (unjustly IMHO) get the same sort of scrutiny
simply because bad programmers can use them to quickly create dogshit. It's
not the fault of the language, not unless you're using it for the wrong
purpose.

Python never seems to have got popular enough to attract morons, and thus
continues to chug merrily along at Google and elsewhere. The last day I wrote
something interesting in Perl was the first day I ported something interesting
to Python. I never really looked at Perl the same way again. It has some truly
horrific design decisions that can make it easier to write horrible ugly code
than to write good code.

But, again -- tis a poor craftsman who blames his tools. Having at least a
passing familiarity with the strengths and weaknesses of various popular tools
never hurt anyone.

~~~
butterfi
>So, right tool for the job... it's surprising to me that 'Drupal developers
can write their own ticket' because it's actually very easy to use and code
to.

Props to you! I've been doing quite a bit of Drupal development over the past
year and I haven't met that many people who would say it was very easy. Not to
put down drupal, I love it, but easy... eh. Worth the effort, thats my take on
it...

------
wallflower
I admire your courage. It's so easy to stay in the comfort zone of a
daily/weekly/yearly/ad to boredom routine (for example, do you know anyone who
drives the same route and parks in the same parking spot in a big lot..
Everyday?) Moving your career is bold and the nay-Sayers probably envy your
courage and determination. As someone famous wrote - most people die at 30 and
are buried later. Negativity criticism etc. is the easy path to take - anyone
can point out a problem but how many will fix it.

I firmly believe that we as humans all are creative. And that expressing our
creativity, our imagination, our mind allows us to be less unhappy. I like
programming because it is a creative form of writing - taking half-baked
requirements and turning it into something people might find of value/help
their daily job/life. I read once that the IDE or your editor is like a word
processor for abstraction - the building and invariancing of data structures.

My point here is it sounds like you enjoy programming at an emotional, mental,
and maybe even spiritual level. I think you'll do fine - the young bright
things probably are still learning that there is more to life than technology.
My second point here is you won't regret taking on this suite of
opportunities.

And when you talk about your job, please don't tell them you are a programmer.
Ask the person asking "what do you do for a living" what they do when they use
a computer - and tell them you make that stuff work (and ask them if they have
any ideas of stuff that could be useful for them)

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leonardc
Hi guys, thanks for all the replies. the fact that they are so positive has
really given me a much needed boost of confidence. Thanks for the practical
suggestions as well. Once again, thank you!

~~~
edw519
I come here every day, not so much for the confidence (I think I already have
it), but for the "boost". Glad to see it's working for you too.

------
bdfh42
Go for it - I started as a developer at 30 (that was when the Apple II was the
latest thing and well before the IBM PC) and I continue to enjoy the
excitement and satisfaction that is to be found as a developer who always has
something to learn. Got a few good years left in me yet as well.

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rmason
Quite frankly 33 is young. I never touched a computer until I was over 30 and
yet I was there at the beginning of the PC revolution.

Did my first startup at 46 and in my fifties I am still going strong. Long as
you are committed to life long learning then age is as they say but a number.

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hufton
Go for it! It's all about passion; if you are passionate about what you do you
have something 95% of other folk are missing. And work won't seem like work,
it's more like fun. I'm in a similar position; age 38 and with a 15 stint in
the finance industry behind me. I've always loved programming, but never
thought of myself as an 'enthusiastic amateur'. Now I'm about to take the
plunge and couldn't be happier.

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edw519
"i can't see myself going back to a business oriented career having tasted
such delights"

You've already answered your own question. Continue tasting.

------
cstef
I am going to graduate at 40. If you can code, you can code.

------
edu
Of course no! You are not too old.

Just today I was reading an article in a spanish magazine about people on
their thirties that completely changed their career following their dreams.

Examples: \- a psychologist that left to work for a NGO (29 y.o) \- a lawyer
how left to be an actor (33 y.o.) \- a shop manager that left to study
physiotherapy (30 y.o.) \- and telecom engineer that left to study audiovisual
communication (32 y.o.)

All of them are quite happy. And you may be on a similar list someday.

Leonardc, put your armor plate, take your sword and go to kill the dragon! Er,
I mean, go to program webs!

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lutorm
Sure hope you're not too old, because I'm 37! I just decided to leave my
academic career in astrophysics and get a "real" job instead, mostly because
of the sacrifices academic life demands in terms of relocation (the bad pay
doesn't help either...) I've done a lot of coding as part of my research and I
hope I have enough skills to land a job. It's a good reality check reading YC
news and hearing about all these technologies I have no idea about...

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mattmaroon
It might hinder you in terms of funding in the startup world. A lot of people
say "dont fund anyone over 30" and mean it. I'm not sure if there's any merit
to that philosophy at all (probably a little) but it definitely exists.

Other than that, neither compilers nor users know or care how old you are.
Make something people want and you'll be fine.

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mdemare
One of my favorite anecdotes about people who think they're too old too learn
is about a 100 year old woman who was asked if she had any regrets.

She said she wished she'd starting taking violin lessons when she was sixty,
since then she would have been playing the violin for forty years.

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hufton
sorry, that should be ".. never thought of myself as more than an enthusiastic
amateur .."

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noonespecial
The computer is nothing more than a thought amplification tool. It doesn't
care how old you are.

Its more important what state the mind is in than what body the mind is in!!!

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troels
You need passion to succeed. As long as you are thrilled by web programming, I
don't think your age should be a problem. The only problem you might face, is
that you'll have to struggle a bit in the beginning. That's true for
everybody, but it's easier for a teenager to live on an underpaid wage, than
for someone who has a mortgage and kids to feed (Assuming you do).

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leonardc
Once again guys, thanks for the great posts, its really helped me -a LOT! I
really appreciate the generosity of the effort and time people have taken to
respond to my post.

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aneesh
Maybe some employers might mind (and you don't want to work for them anyway),
but users definitely don't care how old the person that wrote the code was.
Hack away!

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rmk
you'll probably lose your job to a teeny-bopper who will work for a pittance
and longer hours than you might - would you like that? the industry is
ruthless - either you keep your skills top-level or you become unemployable -
especially in the web-2.0 world. would you like to start from the bottom at
33, with high chances of being laid off at _any_ moment in your career?
Probably not!

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Xichekolas
Never.

