
Revenue Generating Drinking Fountain - cloudwalking
https://www.samuelianrosen.com/blog/2019/12/9/the-evolution-of-tap
======
munchbunny
This feels one step away from a Juicero: take a basic function (actually
dispensing water isn’t the hard part of the system), slap an “internet” on it
to justify the value add, and attach some marketing terms about water
filtration (no actual science or data presented).

~~~
duxup
I think the bigger story with Juicero was the runaway engineering of a product
that ... didn't do its job that great for the cost / had some weird packets
you had to buy.

If it had just been some marketing hype for a standard juicer, they might have
been fine (with a budget).

This thing at least conventionally outputs water... not sure about it's
viability, but it seems somewhat less absurd than Juicero.

~~~
aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA
Plus the DRM.

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oefrha
Can’t speak for anyone else, but I always carry a water bottle with me (a
Wikipedia-branded one with 28 languages![1]) and hardly ever drink packaged
water. So far I’ve managed. Certainly never needed a fucking app to drink
water.

[1] [https://store.wikimedia.org/products/wikipedia-language-
wate...](https://store.wikimedia.org/products/wikipedia-language-water-bottle)

~~~
dnautics
There are places (even in the US) where people legitimately go and get their
water. There are also places where people don't (but probably should). I have
gotten sick off of drinking water from a state which will go unnamed in this
public forum (if you would like to know message me) _after_ my college
roommate who did in-depth research on municipal water systems for a wall
street firm, told me never to drink water from that state (so yes, that one's
on me)

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rgovostes
Rome has at least 2,500 public fountains installed in the 1800s that dispense
potable water. Remarkable that 150 years ago they didn't think to monetize
these, think of the missed revenues.

Map: [https://www.fontanelle.org/Mappa-Fontanelle-Roma-
Lazio.aspx](https://www.fontanelle.org/Mappa-Fontanelle-Roma-Lazio.aspx)

~~~
redwall_hp
Yeah, available drinking water is an essential social good, and one that
municipalities typically invest tax money in.

Let's stop trying to monetize everything.

~~~
metalgearsolid
I thought I was missing some kind of joke when I read the parent comment.

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reaperducer
Reminds me a lot of the water refill stations that the government has in
desert areas of the United States (Kelso Junction, California leaps to mind).
Except the government ones don't have advertising, and aren't connected to the
internet.

I'm a little perplexed about why this needs to be internet connected. Hire
someone to change the ads on the machines and you've made a small dent in
unemployment, too.

And if an area doesn't have clean water, isn't it reasonable to believe it
doesn't have internet connectivity, too?

~~~
sokoloff
I can imagine plenty of businesses that are more profitable (or even simply
viable at all) with automation over the internet rather than paying someone to
drive around and change static ads.

It’s the same reason we dig ditches with power equipment rather than shovels
or spoons or have walk-up ATMs rather than bank tellers on the corner.

~~~
Kalium
You can also put a remote-controlled box somewhere annoying to access quickly,
like airside in an airport. That's _much_ easier than dealing with the
logistics of someone driving around.

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tsumnia
This has to be a joke, right? This basically boils down to putting ads on
water fountains, right?

~~~
eplanit
Yes, but the ecological and social virtue signals make that okay. /s

~~~
duxup
When I was looking for a new job last time I kept hitting these sites for
these little start-ups who on their site had lifestyle type "about us" areas
of their site.

One noted how ecologically considerate. They didn't mention anything they
actually do that was ecologically relevant. They did have a photo(s) in that
section were the team was outside in the midday sun at some wire tables you'd
find at some coffee shops with their laptops working away and laughing ... I
guess one of them had a water bottle ... maybe that was what I was supposed to
pick up from that.

Anyway the whole lifestyle brand / company thing is weird generally.

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brockwhittaker
> The problem is it'll take over $1 trillion to upgrade US drinking water
> infrastructure.

That can't be possible — and I think estimation is way off. Even if there were
a drinking fountain for every American (which I'm sure is an over-estimate by
an order of magnitude as well), that would still imply an upgrade cost of
$3,000 per drinking fountain. If there's a fountain for one in ten Americans;
that's $30,000.

For context, most modern Elkay drinking fountains are around $1,000.

I think this overwhelming figure serves to enhance the point of the author but
I think it bares no basis in reality.

~~~
Jarwain
I don't think it's just the water fountains themselves, but the pipes and all
the other infrastructure associated with transporting water.

Instead of having a central location where water is filtered and distributed
from, Tap is trying to have filtering occur at each endpoint in a more
distributed manner.

~~~
siruva07
Atmospheric Water Generators will also allow us to decentralize where water is
filtered and distributed from. Literally made from thin air and requires no
pipes. We will add these to our fleet in the future.

~~~
logfromblammo
It's really difficult to take you seriously after seeing this. I thought you
were trying to avoid plastic waste, and improve public confidence in the piped
municipal water supply.

Who's paying the power bill for these planned AWG units?

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pwinnski
This is why people hate us.

------
WaylonKenning
I see this as not much different than those bus shelters that are paid for by
JCDeaux in exchange for putting ads there.

Shelters should be free, and so should water fountains. But free doesn't mean
nice. I've seen some poorly maintained bus shelters and water fountains.

If people want to slap ads on the side, and increase the quality, then that's
great. If your VC funding, or ad funding can pay for a filter on a water
fountain, even better.

------
InvisibleUp
Water is a vital human necessity. It's literally impossible to live without
it. Is it possible to have that just be a public service? The idea that
everything needs to generate revenue just feels absurd when just _having a
water fountain_ would help people stick around longer and be happier.

Also, why is it the size of a vending machine? That feels impractical.

------
iamwil
Public free drinking fountains use to be something activists advocated for.
It's strange that it turned into this.

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aSplash0fDerp
The proliferation of potable water will hitch-hike on other economic expansion
projects in the future and (hopefully) we'll see new cost sharing models
developed for public infrastructure that are more suited for the future.

The tap project is a noble effort, so nothing is taken away from it, but we're
going from phonograph records to HD streaming with logistics in what amounts
to a very short period of time and skipping radio, TV, casettes and DVD's in
the process.

When all of the pieces come together, the ingredients for rural
metropoles/metropoleis to sprout up where the will exists should provide a
more reasonable approach than some of the current inferior
innovations/policies/codes[1] that they currently have in place for growth and
sustainability.

Energy (renewables), water (desalinated), connectivity (low orbit satellite),
sustainability (new construction/models/raw materials/resources) and logistics
(ML, drones, autonomous roads/vehicles) should make it a whole new ballgame
(without having to destroy or burden the existing system).

I do like the fact that tap wants to test and report on water quality, but
profitability trumps health. They [utility companies] probably don't want to
be reminded of whats in the water. They already know.

[1]I'm more concerned with the accumulation of prescription meds, but heres a
pfas nugget instead. Perhaps the expiration date has passed on public water
stewardship.

[https://www.ewg.org/interactive-
maps/2019_pfas_contamination...](https://www.ewg.org/interactive-
maps/2019_pfas_contamination/map/)

------
exogeny
I think a lot of the comments here are unnecessarily snarky to the point of
being unhelpful. If I’m the operator of some public place - let’s say an
arcade or a store - every square inch of my store that isn’t being monetized
is inefficient, and for as much as I might like to put a water fountain in as
a courtesy, why wouldn’t I do the same thing and get revenue for it at the
same time?

No one argues that water in the best case should be free and that it’s in the
public interest to provide it, but that’s just not realistic in a lot of
cases. And in this specific case, the net good provided supersedes whatever
argument people have against the commercial aspects, IMO. If it’s this or a
vending machine or another rack of clothes, isn’t this better?

~~~
metalgearsolid
> No one argues that water in the best case should be free and that it’s in
> the public interest to provide it, but that’s just not realistic in a lot of
> cases.

I disagree. I don't believe there is a single good reason for why our world
has both trillions of dollars of wealth but also people without access to
clean drinking water. It's just not right.

------
arkanciscan
> the biggest problem we have in putting water on the map is a fundamental
> mistrust of drinking sources

I've never met anyone who wouldn't use a public water fountain to fill up a
bottle they had. Not saying they don't exist, just that it's not "the biggest
problem".

The biggest problem is obviously forgetting to bring your water bottle with
you everywhere you go. When that happens to me I buy a disposable bottle and
refill it till I lose it. Why don't we just require that all disposable water
bottles are built to be reused? With wide mouths so they can be cleaned, maybe
even compatible with Mason jar lids.

------
disintegore
Took me a while to realize this wasn't satire.

~~~
hwbehrens
> _" The problem is it'll take over $1 trillion to upgrade US drinking water
> infrastructure. So, the investment must generate a return in order to be
> self sustaining [...]"_

Are you sure it isn't satire?

~~~
scottlocklin
The VC (reminder: VC is russian word for "toilet") also invested in Checkr[1],
another dystopian joke.

[1]
[https://www.samuelianrosen.com/investments](https://www.samuelianrosen.com/investments)

~~~
siruva07
serial entrepreneur, actually. I started a similar company but was too early,
and invested in a successor. I’ve never been a VC.

~~~
scottlocklin
Assuming you're the person I linked to, and you're not a VC, how come your
website says, for example, that you did a series-B investment on checkr?

~~~
siruva07
Because I invested my own money as an angel at the series B...

~~~
scottlocklin
I hate to break it to you bro: you're the literal definition of a VC. And
series B is not angel terms.

If what you're saying is you don't work for a VC firm, well then, OK.

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imsofuture
Thanks, I hate it.

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duxup
I wonder what the economics of "big box that does a task" are. Like Redbox or
whatever it is someone wants to put in a big vending machine type thing are,
finding locations and etc (water hook up or filling will be interesting).

It seems like it could be a very logistics heavy business and hard to account
for a lot of things.

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nkrisc
What exactly is "smart" about it? It sounds like a dumb terminal for both
water and advertisements.

------
btbuildem
As long as the water keeps flowing when the internet is down, we're good.

~~~
siruva07
Yes it does.

~~~
logfromblammo
How do you intend to respond to attacks against wire or antenna? What stops
someone from disabling the advertisement function without interfering with
water dispensing?

And while we're on the subject of internet-connected devices, how much thought
have you given to black-hat hackers pwning water fountains remotely, or with a
few minutes of physical access, to stream racy videos or promote their garage
band's next show?

------
berbec
"fundamental mistrust of drinking sources"

I know a few people like this but I don't understand it. Why is the water
coming out of a faucet not safe, here in NYC?

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AnIdiotOnTheNet
Now we just need ads in our public parks, preferably for tobacco products, and
the 80s vision of the dystopian corporate future will be complete.

~~~
berbec
I can hear the Liquidator cackling in the background: "Wetter Water!" [1]

1:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkwing_Duck](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkwing_Duck)

------
jdkee
Preying on public distrust for something as essential as public drinking water
is horrible.

~~~
siruva07
Join us then in the fight against Coke/Pepsi/Nestle which have done exactly
that for 30 years to the tune of billions of dollars.

Read up on Coke's "Cap the Tap" program and you'll see why I started Tap

------
arkanciscan
This is just a water fountain with advertising...

------
siruva07
@findtap Founder here.

[https://findtap.com/](https://findtap.com/)

AMA

~~~
luke0016
I've already experienced advertisements on gasoline pumps. I would concede
that it is not exactly the same thing - gas pumps are worse, because you're
already paying for a product.

However, it is certainly just as annoying and invasive.

Do you ever stop and ask yourself "am I really making the world a better place
by doing this?"

~~~
siruva07
Every single day.

The reality is your attention had a cost, and the price of quality tap water
is less than that cost.

We will also enable a donation based model for water. Future revenue
generating opportunities include sparkling and flavored water at a fraction of
the cost of what you would buy on the shelf at a convenience store. 65% of the
cost of any beverage is packaging and transportation. By carrying your own
bottle, you’ll save money, save the planet from plastic pollution, and yes,
water will be free.

~~~
dougmwne
I intend for this to be honest feedback from a consumer perspective, not an
attack. I know I don't fully appreciate your business. Thanks for sharing your
product with HN!

I can't see how this is any improvement over a drinking fountain. Drinking
fountains typically dispense filtered water and the idea of obnoxious
advertising on them is disgusting to me. On the other hand, if these machines
dispensed a selection of flavored seltzer water I would see the value,
probably use them and seek them out and not mind the advertising. I might even
buy a reusable water bottle from you that was designed to hold the
carbonation. I would be getting something I actually value and can't trivially
get for free. I would also be really reducing my environmental footprint since
I already drink filtered tap water, but do buy lots of canned seltzer.

Flavored seltzers appear to be big business right now. I have no idea if the
unit economics could support it, but on the surface, the flavoring chemicals
have to be incredibly inexpensive. Seeing something like this would absolutely
catch my attention and I would tell other people about it.

It's an important problem to be working on and I wish you all the luck in the
world.

------
the8472
meanwhile, in commie europe:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GceNsojnMf0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GceNsojnMf0)

