
The Roland TR-808: the drum machine that revolutionised music - mattdennewitz
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/mar/06/roland-tr-808-drum-machine-revolutionised-music
======
S_A_P
I've owned a TR-606/TB-303, 2 TR-808s and currently own a TR-8. I bought my
first 808 in college in 1998 for 750 bucks. Being a broke college student I
sold it to pay for school. After college I bought another TR-808 for 700 in
2003 and kept it for 2 years. I grew bored of the sound, and had taken a
decent enough sample set of it to replace it for most uses. The second 808 I
had I modded to extend the decay of the kick drum to the point of self
oscillation. I also bought a new row of buttons for it. Lastly I added a midi-
DIN sync box. I had considered adding a pitch pot on the kick drum but prices
were rising to the point that I thought was an 808 bubble(a princely sum of
1600 dollars). Now I see tr-808s on ebay for 3000+ and kick myself.

For anyone interested, the TR-8 does a good job emulating the TR-808/909 for
the most part. I find the 808 cymbal(and to a lesser degree the hi-hat) sound
nowhere near as good as the original and far less adjustable. The snares don't
quite have the snap I hear in my 808 samples. It should be noted though that
there was quite a bit of variation from unit to unit in the TR-808. My first
808 had a nice long 2-3 second kick decay, while the second one I owned was
about .5 seconds(which is why I did the mod) the hi hat and cymbals are a
slightly different pitch as well.

I bought the 7x7-TR8 expansion and while somewhat useful(I like the 707 snare)
the 707/727 sounds rarely get any use. The expansion did include some new
takes on the 909 kick, snare and non specific clap and snap sounds. I really
like to play with the new snap sounds, as it is a cool noise generator effect.
I haven't seen any news around this, but it seems silly for them not to do a
TR-606/DR-55 expansion pack for the TR-8. I would have bought that over the
7X7 expansion.

There is a TR-808 documentary coming out soon 808themovie.com that will have
tons of artist interviews who made their name with the 808. This article did a
decent job of naming music that really used an 808, as there was one a few
months ago that suggested mostly 909 tracks or tracks that may have used 808
samples sporadically in them. I get a bit pedantic about that because to me,
you aren't using an 808 if you loaded a drum sampler with 808 sounds. Beastie
Boys licensed to ill is a great example of an album made mostly with an
808(but synced up with a sequential circuits drumtraks and possibly a linndrum
on one or 2 tracks) By the late 80s, most rap was made on sp-12/1200s and akai
MPCs.

~~~
swombat
What I don't understand is why bother owning the hardware these days, other
than personal taste? Surely the reproduction of an ancient hardware drum
sequencer in today's software should be perfect.

I'm not criticising your preference for using hardware, that's your call. Some
people still like to use vinyl, and I guess that's pretty cool. And some
people still like to use hardware synths. And so on... but at the end of the
day, unless you're doing something on the hardware that is impossible to do
with software (e.g. some kinds of scratching could be argued to be impossible
to reproduce exactly without vinyls and turntables), it seems to me the only
reason to use a hardware 808 is basically personal preference.

Happy to be explained why I'm wrong though. Are there any quantifiable
differences between a physical 808 and a software one?

~~~
smosher_
> I'm not criticising your preference for using hardware, that's your call.
> Some people still like to use vinyl, and I guess that's pretty cool.

The sound is incredibly hard to get right in some cases. You can simulate
vinyl remarkably well with a timecode record or DJ controller and special
software, but: the plugins have extremely limited range compared to the real
thing and the controllers require the same investment as a turntable and
timecode still needs the turntable. Nearly every used record store and thrift
store has a pile of nearly-free records which are ideal for sampling: obscure
stuff no one has heard of, ancient stuff that is no longer recognized by
today's audience or may have even been obscure in its day.

As for preferring hardware, in my opinion it's the responsible thing to do.
Because:

* Say you want to play a show. Are you going to bring a laptop in there and pray it doesn't do something insane, say... auto-discover the wifi, start installing updates during your gig? Or just crash because it has an undiscovered cooling problem an it's hotter than your usual environment with all those bodies dancing around?

* Software tends to cost money too. There are free options, but chances are you will want _something_ in your software setup that isn't free.

* Idiosyncrasies. Just like your audience wants to hear that vinyl sound, producers often want those hardware quirks. A lot of this amounts to fetishism, but sometimes there are more objective reasons.

* Dedicated functionality. Portable instruments. Playable instruments. Jamming on a PC keyboard does not give you the same response as jamming on instrument keys or pads, or whatever the instrument has that is designed to be played. You could buy a controller, but then you're back to buying hardware.

* Workflow is king. Nearly everything software needs a mouse these days. Or a dedicated hardware controller. It's a workflow-killer.

I learned the hard way that I can't produce very well with software. A few
years ago I went with a nice portable piece of kit that does a little bit of
everything from sampling to synthesis and mixing. When I did that everything
changed drastically. I thought about music differently and really started to
get my hands on it.

Hardware isn't that costly unless you need to have the most badass kit or a
large setup. When my wish-list is complete, mine will have cost me about
$1500. A decent laptop + Ableton Live + midi controller would be cost at least
that much. That will take you far, but it's not an argument against just
buying the hardware instead. Some people work better with software, and that's
cool, but for anyone who works better with hardware, the word "preference"
only works in the sense that "I would prefer not to have my hand chopped off."
It probably goes both ways, but I couldn't tell you about that. ;)

~~~
toothbrush
> When my wish-list is complete, mine will have cost me about $1500.

Mind me asking what you use? :)

(and while i agree with the gist of your post -- well said! -- a minor nitpick
is that even truly poor college students will probably have at least some sort
of computer which could produce sound, making it tempting not to shell out for
hardware, even if for some people [me included] work better with touchy feely
knobs and sliders)

~~~
smosher_
> Mind me asking what you use? :)

I find gear lists distasteful so I won't go into much detail about most
things, but I will give you an idea of what I have going on.

The thing I mentioned in the post is the OP-1:
[https://www.teenageengineering.com/products/op-1](https://www.teenageengineering.com/products/op-1)
(built-in synths, samplers, mic, radio, 4-track, sequencers...) It's my
workhorse.

I like sampling, so there's a turntable and cassette deck. I like sampling a
_lot_ , so I'm getting another sampler.

I also have a subsynth to cover the areas the OP-1 synths don't. (They're very
good, but each is specialized and has only 4 or 8 parameters.)

I also use a cheap (but not noisy) DJ mixer since I only need to mix two
channels, and doing cuts with the crossfader when sampling is handy. The rest
of it is cables, speakers, headphones and a few things I never use.

~~~
toothbrush
OK, thanks for the info! That OP-1 looks super fun, actually. I'll have to
start saving up :)

~~~
smosher_
Sure, no prob. BTW, if you're interested, you might want to drop by
[http://operator-1.com/](http://operator-1.com/) which hosts the (unofficial)
forums. The Teenage Engineering staff are known to browse and even make posts
once in a blue moon.

It's expensive but well worth it for the people who click with it. I would
recommend trying one before you buy it, especially if you can spend a good
amount of time with it. I felt a little let down during my first week or so
with it, but then it clicked and became instantly essential. It doesn't go
that way for everyone, but it seems most people end up loving it.

------
radley
I'm going to break ranks and say the 909 was the far more revolutionary work
horse. The 808 has a very 80s hip-hop / electro sound which was limiting.
OTOH, the 909 has a very generalized sound with a strong kick and snare that
has supported the bulk of EDM for the last 20+ years.

~~~
JonnieCache
The 808 bass drum dominates UK dance music as an pitched, melodic sound.
Distort it through a cheap desk, sample it with a couple of layers and you're
away. Drum and bass and dubstep are both built on a foundation of 808s, even
if you cant necessarily pick them out.

Here's a video tutorial of some producers walking you through this technique,
with a real 808 and an EMU 6400 ultra sampler:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yheX4yrOOQI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yheX4yrOOQI)

Here's _Truly One_ by Origin Unknown, which uses two 808 samples a semitone
apart so that they beat against each other, another of the many many 808
techniques:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNNg6UYoDTI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNNg6UYoDTI)

(What a record. Feel the rush!)

~~~
radley
Interesting to see the 808 as the foundation of their final kick, but the
final result is far from the natural 808 sound. (808 is still a sexy beast
tho).

The 909 has been the standard kick for house, techno, et al for a long time
with little need for modification.

In the hands of an expert, almost any drum machine can be amazing. For
example, I never understood / liked old Alesis drum machines, but wow:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDkjNb7XKsI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDkjNb7XKsI)

------
bane
The 808 has such a dominant sound in a mix that it almost ends up dictating
the rest of the mix and sets such a powerful mood - it's no wonder that it
formed the backbone of so many different dance genres. I always preferred the
sound of the 909 growing up, but as I get older the 808 continues to stay
relevant as a sound even after the 909 has started to sound a little stale. To
this day I mentally catalog drum machines as "808-ish" or "909-ish".

The definitive 808 track for me has always been Polygon Window by The Dice Man
off of the still absolutely amazing first Artificial Intelligence compilation
album, one of the defining electronic music albums ever put together.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVp6NH59d3M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVp6NH59d3M)

~~~
spopejoy
Reminds me of the Aphex Twin "selected ambient recordings 1", was he rocking
an 808? Hihats sound the same ...

~~~
waterlesscloud
If it helps, "The Dice Man" is really Aphex Twin. He later used "Polygon
Window" as another alias for a couple albums.

------
jsmthrowaway
The TR-808 is up there with samplers and the Amen Break in terms of defining
modern music. If you have twenty minutes, there's a wonderful video explaining
the Amen Break that I suggest everybody watch at least once:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaFTm2bcac](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaFTm2bcac)

~~~
blt
IMO Amen was much more fleeting than the 808. Can't remember the last time I
heard Amen in a mainstream track. Amen is super gritty and compressed which
limits its style. 808 is an instrument, much more malleable.

------
joezydeco
If you're nostalgic for these kind of drum machines _and_ you're a fan of the
old Nintendo Game'n'Watch, you need to check out the stuff Teenage Engineering
is creating:

[https://www.teenageengineering.com/products/po](https://www.teenageengineering.com/products/po)

------
kepano
There's a documentary about the 808 coming out this year:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIS-o_--
wqY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIS-o_--wqY)

Looks amazing.

~~~
sosuke
Also a BBC radio story on it
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBvmnqeJWl4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBvmnqeJWl4)

No telling if it is any good though BBC is fairly reliable.

------
ChuckMcM
For what ever reason I never 'clicked' with the UX of the 808 or the 909. I
ended up with the Alesis sr-16 and then later a drum sound module unit. For
me, it wasn't until I could program it from my computer that I felt I could
tap some of its expressiveness.

------
acomjean
There was/is a software version of said drum machine. Back in mac os8 days, it
made me realize how odd it is to try and turn nobs with a mouse. It made me
think the interface is hard to use on a computer, unless you had the original
hardware and knew how to use it already. It seemed like there should be a
better way.

But it was fun.

now touch version on ipad. I haven't tried it but I'm not convinced the knobs
work better on touch than they would have on the computer.

[https://www.propellerheads.se/rebirth](https://www.propellerheads.se/rebirth)

~~~
radley
Pros are using Tuna Knobs to add physical knobs to touch screens:

[http://www.djtechtools.com/2015/05/07/artist-gear-setup-
jame...](http://www.djtechtools.com/2015/05/07/artist-gear-setup-james-
zabiela/)

~~~
acomjean
I had no idea those existed, That certainly would solve the problem.

------
jsnk
I wrote about TR-808 when I did an article on drum machines in college
newspaper a few years ago.
([http://iwarrior.uwaterloo.ca/2011/06/01/8761/legendary-
drum-...](http://iwarrior.uwaterloo.ca/2011/06/01/8761/legendary-drum-
machines/)) Hope you find it interesting.

------
kubiiii
I found a TR808 in a garage sale 10 years ago. Nice memories! There is a
cheaper alternative with a similar sound and programmation capabilities
(althoughfar more cumbersome and no sound tweak possibilities) : the CR8000.
All this gear is getting expensive these days, but maybe Roland will follow
Korg's lead with the MS20 and rebuild TRs.

------
andrewtbham
It is still referenced frequently in rap music.

"That 808 bump makes you put your hands up." \- fly like a g6

~~~
S_A_P
D-Nice used to call himself the TR-808. I always thought that was weird since
he never really used them in his music...

~~~
Expeditus419
I was thinking the same. Ironically, their rivalry with Marley Marl and MC
Shan was started with the song "The Bridge" which featured a prominent TR-808.

Here's Marley breaking down how he created the beat.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IxUXfhC8TI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IxUXfhC8TI)

------
agumonkey
I thought that was the machine behind some Prince tunes, but it's a Linn LM-1
not a TR808.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMad5DLHNOw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMad5DLHNOw).

Anyway good read.

------
luisjgomez
bass drum: 909 >>> 808 Not even close from techno perspective

~~~
S_A_P
I am definitely more of an 808 fan but on the surface I would agree that the
909 is a better machine in almost every way. The snare is great. The kick is
nice and punchy, but while offering more knobs it's less adjustable. I think
if the 909 offered the long kick the 808 has it would have a much larger place
in more types of music. For me what kills the 909 is the cymbals and hi hats.
They are definitely great for 120-140bpm music but if you slow the tempo to
80-90bpm the machine sounds disjointed and doesn't "flow". When the aria
videos came out for the tr-8 the original engineer said that if he were
building a new sampled drum machine today he would use the same hi hats and
cymbal. I just happen to disagree with that decision. I wish they would have
made the 909 100% analog or at least had an option for analog or samples. I
think the 909 samples sound really bad.

------
grimmdude
That 808 tho

~~~
grimmdude
Blah blah blah...something HN worthy...blah blah blah

