
Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control - prostoalex
https://qz.com/1019928/i-went-from-sedentary-academic-to-100-mile-marathon-runner-thanks-to-the-science-of-self-control/?utm_source=qzfb
======
ErikAugust
I run ultras and mountain races. I ran one this Friday night into Saturday
morning - a 12 hour overnight trail race where I managed 100K (62mi) in 11
hours and 23 minutes.

Anyway, let's throw out willpower and even genetics for a second so I can
bring up something: In today's age, virtually no one is even remotely close to
their physiological limits.

Literally, hundreds of people (elite marathoners, a few ultra marathoners,
cross country skiiers) out of billions of people are bumping up against
physiology. These people will do anything for the smallest performance gains
(1%).

Really, if you have not achieved a level where you are ~5-8% body fat and run
consistently at 100 miles (or more) a week, you are not anywhere that close.
Trust me. This is kind of even standard for competitive college distance
runners - and even they are likely making mistakes that hold back their
development (diet, drinking, running too many miles at too fast of a pace,
etc.)

Yet we can take someone who is 20% body fat, and runs 10 miles a week. You
will find this person finishing an 100 mile ultramarathon. It's not that
uncommon, if the time cutoffs are liberal. 18 minute miles is walking pace.

The author even mentions he didn't think he was obese. He just didn't know the
reality of things, I'd argue. He had to have this concept of willpower
(concentration) to learn. And to change his diet and training habits. And even
his understanding of what is possible.

It's magical to chalk things up to grit - but there is so much process of
knowing how the lows feel during a race, what to eat while training, how fast
to do each run while training, how much to run while training, how to stay
hydrated while racing, how to get nutrition while racing, etc.

"Tough" or "in control of self" to me is too emotionally loaded.

Edit: I almost feel bad writing this because it takes some of the magic that
gets marketed about it. But this is a science-oriented crowd and should be
exciting to know there is more of an opportunity for the objective than a lot
of people believe.

~~~
sushisource
Yeah, it's a little frustrating to have some person say to me "Oh yeah, I ran
a marathon too!". Ok, yeah, you completed it... six hours slower than I did.
You walked a marathon.

I'd disagree though that the grit/toughness thing to me is too emotional. My
marathon time is 3:38 - reasonably fast for an amateur, but nothing blazing.
~8 minute pace. I know that getting that time faster is 100% about my
commitment level. I know I could be faster, but I just don't want to invest
the time and pain in it. I enjoy running, but I'm not trying to be super
competitive.

So I think it is emotional for 99.9% of people. Only those .1% of people you
mentioned are hitting the physical limits, as you said.

In other words, I agree with your facts, but I think the interpretation is
wrong (or I'm misunderstanding). The key ingredient is the willpower, the
consistency, and that comes from an emotional place.

~~~
proee
Well then I'm sure it's frustrating when a professional who runs a Marathon in
close to 2 hours, hears you say the same thing.

~~~
LeifCarrotson
I'm no 2-hour-marathon pro, just a has-been mediocre collegiate runner, but
there's some understanding of the effort levels and dedication that are
required, no matter the accomplishments. But there are runners, and there are
joggers, and there are joggers that call themselves runners and post "26.2"
stickers on their cars.

By analogy, there's a difference between an HN celebrity, someone who does
programming for a living at a typical skill level, and someone who claims to
be an engineer - but cannot complete FizzBuzz.

~~~
bitexploder
Marathons are harder for people who run them in 4 hours (assuming they tried
as hard as they could). They are on their feet longer, and have to coerce
their mind to push that much longer. It is just a different race for mid and
back of the packers. Further, training is much the same. You might run 50-60
miles in a week because you can go faster. A slower runner might dedicate 30
or 40% more of their time to achieve that many miles. It takes the same mental
effort to run at a 4 RPE (RATING PERCEIVED EFFORT on a scale of 1-5) as it
does for an elite. The elite just has genetics on their side. I used to feel
much the same way you do, but truly those "joggers" slogging out a 4 or 5 hour
marathon giving it their all after months of running 9+ hours per week. They
are runners too.

Ultras are also far less populated by folks with an elitist running mentality.
It is more about being in nature and a personal journey, which is why Ultra
appeals to a certain crowd. Olympians and the guy down the road have more in
common with their running experience than not.

------
jmull
I'm sorry, but this is all gobbledygook.

Nice ad for "sword" sportfood products, though.

For one thing, running 100 mile races isn't a very good standard for willpower
or self control.

There is virtually zero use for this capability, so whether you spend 5-10
hours a week to do so or not isn't really a question of self control.

It's a question of what activities/hobbies you want to pursue in your free
time.

Staying fit is a good-for-you type of thing, but you don't have to do anything
close to that level of training to stay fit.

My advice, whether you want to get/stay fit or achieve some athletic endurance
goal is to _make sure you find a way to enjoy the training_.

It takes consistent long-term training and you wont't have to worry about your
willpower Or self control if you enjoy doing it.

Along those lines: _start slow_ \- the hardest and most painful part is
getting started. E.g., use a C25K program; _find your own goals_ \- whether
that's completing 100 mile runs, or a 5K PR, or 1000 miles this year, or an
8:00 pace or a 365 day running streak or whatever.

~~~
majelix
> There is virtually zero use for this capability [running 100 mile races]

That's a major point of the article, given it's discussion of the spillover
effect: "The bottom line: Practice self-control in one area of your life, and
you can apply it in other parts, too."

~~~
jmull
It's nice that practicing willpower improves willpower, even across
activities.

But that doesn't suggest that's the best way to do it generally, or that
running in particular is an effective or efficient way to do it.

Look, I get it. I run and it takes time so there's pressure to justify it.

But I don't see why the basic truth isn't enough: he enjoys it and it staves
off his feelings of impending mortality. (In this case, I suspect he may also
be trying to monetize it, but who knows.)

------
pkghost
The willpower hypothesis is one of the larger tire fires in the disaster that
is reproducibility in psychology research.

[https://www.google.com/search?q=willpower+reproducibility](https://www.google.com/search?q=willpower+reproducibility)

~~~
anbende
Easy, the tire fire is specifically in social psychology research. Other areas
of psychology (e.g. cognitive, developmental, personality, etc) have their
problems but in most cases no more so than other disciplines.

~~~
2309kdujj
To be fair, the reproducibility crisis is widespread throughout many, many
areas of science. There are many tire fires all over the place; people just
started noticing it in a widespread way with social psych:

[http://www.nature.com/news/1-500-scientists-lift-the-lid-
on-...](http://www.nature.com/news/1-500-scientists-lift-the-lid-on-
reproducibility-1.19970)

Also, to be fair, the willpower hypothesis that was discredited is really
about ego-depletion, the idea that willpower is (or reflects) a finite
resource that is used by an array of neuropsychological processes. It's not
that crazy of an idea, as there are many limits in human behavior and
physiology.

------
HorizonXP
I'm a bit evangelical about low-carb, high-fat (LCHF) diets nowadays,
especially keto. Personally, I'm not at the fitness level where I could
conceivably run a marathon. Maybe a 5K or a half. But the article mentions him
hitting walls as he hit certain mile markers, and having his wife help him
reach the finish.

This guy: [https://youtu.be/96VZFklUM_Q](https://youtu.be/96VZFklUM_Q) runs
ultra marathons, using fat for fuel. He leaves his fellow competitors in his
dust because he doesn't have to carry glucose packets to keep his body fed.
Instead, he finishes his race with an avocado and bison jerky.

~~~
Swizec
As someone currently training for the SF Marathon, here's my perspective on
low carb and glucose packets.

Low-ish carb is great. It helps you endure long runs overall and it's a good
habit in general. Especially for recovering after the race and getting all
those calories back.

During the long run itself however, glucose packets are absolutely necessary.
You run out of glycogen stores every 45 minutes or so. That's when you start
cramping up and having trouble. A glucose packet gives you some caffeine
(helps with stamina and pain tolerance), and some electrolytes (helps with
cramping and hydration), and some 100 calories of sugar (helps with glycogen
levels and mental fortitude).

Crucially, you _aren 't_ replacing all the calories you burn. That's
impossible. In a 4 hour marathon I burn between 2500 and 3000 calories. The
packets replace only 500 calories.

The difference between packets and no packets is that with packets, I am able
to be a human person after a marathon. Far less cranky, far less tired,
generally feeling okay. Without the packets, I'm basically a walking zombie.

That said, it took a lot of practice to figure out the right timing for those
packets, to train my body to absorb them and so on. It's definitely not
something you want to start experimenting with on race day. That's a recipe
for puking.

~~~
mirkules
The first time I tried a packet (GU gel) in a practice run, I nearly puked. It
tastes like liquefied bubble gum and the taste stuck with me for the next 30
minutes. Which ones work well for you?

~~~
alistairSH
You really have to try different brands and flavors to find what works. It
seems to be very personal. I have friends who can't use gels, and instead eat
chewable gummies instead (one swears by straight gummi bears, others use the
Gu and PowerBar prodicts).

Personally, I've switched to mostly liquid nutrition, currently using a custom
blend from Infinit. For 6+ hour races, I'll supplment with a PBJ sandwich or a
bar of some sort.

------
dogruck
I have finished six or seven 100 mile races.

I've observed that the only apparent constant among all finishers is above
average fitness, a reasonable approach to food and drink while racing, and a
_total commitment_ to finishing.

Every race has some bare foot runners and some Hoka devotees. You see fat
people and thin people. Old and young.

Every finisher suffered tremendously, yet he or she refused to quit.

~~~
pcunite
_Every finisher suffered tremendously, yet he or she refused to quit._

I'm touching these words on my monitor. I can feel the pain. Ugh ...

------
TheAlchemist
Willpower or not, I feel like running is really a great thing to do. Will
Smith once said (or quoted, don't remember) that one should two things - run
and read books. I definitely agree with that. I used to practice sports a lot,
football and basketball and that had a positive effect on my teamwork ability.

However, only when I started running I noticed how much this sport can
influence one's life. There are no shortcuts, talent has almost zero
influence, and it depends only on you how well you perform. I started about a
year ago, more seriously about 3 months ago, and I already see how much I'm
improving in other areas of life.

~~~
Danihan
How does talent have almost no influence? There are many genetic factors that
would impact how strong a runner is.

You mention football and basketball, which are essentially a series of short
sprints. Sprints are _much_ healthier for people than 100-mile marathons that
will essentially bathe your body in cortisol.

[http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-evidence-continues-to-
mou...](http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-evidence-continues-to-mount-
against-chronic-cardio/)

~~~
the_gastropod
It seems like the more paleo/crossfit "celebrities" contradict popular
nutrition/exercise science, the more popular they get. I don't get it. The
most influential figure in this space was probably Dr. Robert Atkins, who
suffered multiple heart attacks, congestive heart failure, and hypertension.
Why are people espousing the same junk science to be seen as credible sources?

~~~
Danihan
Yes, obviously we should keep living on mostly grains, the same thing used to
fatten up cattle for slaughter. I wonder why it hasn't worked yet to make
everyone healthy.

------
d--b
This article angers me.

1\. the guy is only an example. Willpower alone will not make you run 100
mile-race. You need the right body as well.

2\. most people don't try and run 100 mile-races because they have better
things to do

3\. willpower and success: seriously this is really self congratulatory.
running 100 miles does not make anyone a more succesful person.

4\. no mention of endorphines and running addiction?

~~~
sushisource
Nonsense. Unless you have some kind of disability anyone can run a 100 miler.
That is completely true.

You need to get in shape first, obviously, but unless you have a condition
that prevents you from doing that, you can do it.

I get the impression you haven't done much distance running, because the
article is spot on when he says it's almost exclusively about determination.

#2 just seems like you're being a dick. #3 is unprovable, and #4 is something
I rarely hear any serious runner talk about, and it certainly isn't the reason
I run at all.

------
bbarn
a counter-point: [http://nautil.us/issue/45/power/against-
willpower](http://nautil.us/issue/45/power/against-willpower)

~~~
Treegarden
thanks, that was a really interesting article. Unfortunately it focused mainly
on what "willpower" is dubious and not so much on what it is instead that
helps one resist a craving. Only at the end the author wrote that the drinking
lawyer had to much stress (underlying problem). But that isnt really a good
general answer/explanation. I once read the book "the power of habit" and
maybe that is the answer (its habits we need to control) but I am not sure.

~~~
0xdeadbeefbabe
In order to resist a craving you must have a craving, and that's why I don't
like to think of it as will power.

Edit: Maybe it's easier to talk about power to do things.

~~~
sjg007
I think the cravings deplete themselves over time as you don't indulge them.

------
scintill76
> And so I set about fortifying my sense of self-control, based on the
> following factors: [Standards, Monitoring, and Strength]

> Strength: ... I built my mental strength by running even when I didn’t want
> to—when I was sore, stressed, or sleepy.

He built his will power by doing things he didn't have the will to do? One of
the pillars of his self-control is that he has self-control? Maybe I'm missing
something or jumping on the easy mockery, but this seems circular or common-
sense.

~~~
09bjb
I don't see a problem with this. Habits are self-reinforcing, good or bad. If
you can interrupt a bad habit once, or start a good habit once, you give
yourself more momentum for the next go-round. You have X probability of
successfully doing it the first time, and you may or may not do what you set
out to. But whether you do affects the probability that you'll do it the next
time. And I'd be wary of anyone that claims that they never, ever, have any
say in the matter when it comes to doing something once, even if it's hard.

I do agree with you in that by this same logic, you have a better chance of
arriving at great self-control if you start with decent self-control.

~~~
Bjartr
>I'd be wary of anyone that claims that they never, ever, have any say in the
matter when it comes to doing something once, even if it's hard.

When I hear "I don't have a say in the matter" I read frustration, not
dismissal.

I'd posit that when people say that, they don't mean it literally. Or, rather,
it's the best they can articulate the internal struggle. I've found the
language I know (English) to not provide me with the tools to describe the
nuance of the sensation of lacking self-control or willpower.

What I describe going forward is hard-won from long term introspection, and it
still falls short of effectively communicating what I am really trying to say.

I would wager that, for a not insignificant fraction of people, when they tell
you they "don't have a say in the matter" they are trying to articulate the
feeling/sensation of having the intellectual understanding of the situation
i.e. (paraphrased for brevity) "I should do X because it has benefits Y and Z,
instead of A which has downsides B and C" but where merely having that
understanding is insufficient to compel (willpower, initiative, motivation,
w/e) themselves to action, for however long they choose to linger on it in
their mind.

------
Grustaf
”Bill Gates spent thousands of hours learning to program”

Sure, and so did thousands of others. Bill Gates clearly didn’t become a
modern Croesus because he was a better programmer, this is just trying to
shoehorn Microsoft into the at once self-evident and ludicrous 10000 hour
idea.

~~~
majelix
> ”Bill Gates spent thousands of hours learning to program”

Here's the full quote: "Bill Gates spent thousands of hours learning how to
program computers—but he only had that opportunity because he had the good
fortune of having parents who supported his education."

I think you're in violent agreement that 10,000 hours isn't sufficient.

~~~
watwut
I thought Gates success is because he was good at business and good at leading
company.

------
jmcdiesel
The fact that so many of the comments here are focused on running and its
pros/cons and not on the actual point of the article (self control) ... its
kinda strange for HN to completely miss the point by such a big margin...

------
paulpauper
It should be: how I learned to run 100 miles marathons due to having a high
lactic acid threshold

------
mankash666
Research suggests a genetic preponderance towards physical fitness. With self
control, you can make it to what your body can maximally achieve. But no
amount of self control can guarantee the finish of an ultra-marathon if you're
genetically not designed for it. PBS/Nova [1] took a shot at the question -
"Can anyone run a marathon?", and found a certain lot more likely due to their
genetics.

[1] [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/marathon-
challenge.html](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/marathon-challenge.html)

~~~
jackmott
Most people just walk these ultras, probably anyone healthy can do that with
enough time to prepare.

As well, probably anyone healthy can slowly jog a marathon with enough time to
prepare.

But not everyone can qualify for boston, or make the olympics.

~~~
ultra-jeremyx
Go ahead and try it! How hard could it be?

[http://ultrasignup.com/](http://ultrasignup.com/)

~~~
jackmott
I'm sure it would be extremely hard for me to mostly walk 100 miles at once.

------
didibus
I think what's good about fitness goals, is that they're all very achievable.
If you are motivated, you're chances of success are almost 100%. There's not a
lot of factors out of your control apart from the limits of your own body. In
that sense, they're good for moral and confidence. If you struggled at other
things, taking a goal whose success is in your hand, and for which failure has
no consequence is a good way to test if you're the problem or not.

------
water42
People die and people deal with it in different ways. I'm not sure what is
unique about this. Lots of people learn to get in shape for marathons.

~~~
codingdave
And if they all wrote about their experiences, I'm sure we'd read some of
their articles, too.

------
watwut
Doing sport as a hobby is pleasant. If you want test willpower, try sitting
totally bored on playground every day because it is good for kids, try to come
home sooner despite peer pressure and career hit because you matter for kids.

Alternatively, try doing boring work you hate for hours because bills needs to
be paid. It is less pleasant then doing sport you like.

------
Gargoyle
I favorited this post because the top level comments are a perfect HN self-
parody.

------
samnwa
Can someone explain the point of all this? Is this to challenge your own
ability to stick to a plan? Is it to impress others? The motivation alludes me
entirely.

------
didibus
I didn't see any science in this article. I was disappointed.

------
Dowwie
chewable caffeine tablets? what could possibly go wrong with a combination of
those and ultramarathons? (/s)

