
Former NSA chief Keith Alexander has joined Amazon’s board of directors - jbegley
https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/9/21429635/amazon-keith-alexander-board-of-directors-nsa-cyber-command
======
aazaa
> For those keeping score, not only does Amazon own the The Washington Post
> and oversees the CIA’s Commercial Cloud Enterprise, it now has on its
> powerful board of directors the most visible figure from the NSA who
> illegally spied on Americans for the better part of a decade.

This sounds tinfoil hat crazy, but here we are. Not so crazy now.

Man in a position to have reams of compromising intel on the current president
hired by a man in an ongoing battle with the president.

~~~
switch11
This: This sounds tinfoil hat crazy, but here we are. Not so crazy now

At some point we need to just say it

some of the largest tech companies are basically NSA+CIA partners and we're
well on our way to having

Big Tech completely integrated into NSA and CIA and DoD

~~~
01100011
The government created Silicon Valley:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTC_RxWN_xo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTC_RxWN_xo)

I have no evidence other than the sheer obviousness of it, but the ties still
continue to this day. I have no doubt it is kept hidden from most employees
due to the general political leanings of most Valley engineers. For instance,
my work does a ton of work for the DoE and you hear them mentioned all the
time. The DoD is also a customer and you _never_ hear their name.

~~~
propogandist
Google bought Keyhole (now Google Maps) from In-Q-Tel, the CIA's VC firm [1]
-- this was when Eric Schmidt was CEO.

Maps was caught wardriving [2] with Google Streetview, linking Wifi access
point names to physical locations early on. After getting caught, they settled
for $13 Million last year.

Now Google Maps and even location services on all Android devices uses wifi
scanning and bluetooth scanning as part of location triangulation. This is a
constantly updating map of every SSID in existance, including unique radio
devices in a given location.

Eric Schmidt, former CEO of Google, now heads up the DoD's advisory board on
new technology [3]

[1] [https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/how-the-cia-made-
goo...](https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/how-the-cia-made-
google-e836451a959e)

[2] [https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/22/tech/google-street-view-
priva...](https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/22/tech/google-street-view-privacy-
lawsuit-settlement/index.html)

[3]
[https://www.defensenews.com/industry/techwatch/2016/03/02/go...](https://www.defensenews.com/industry/techwatch/2016/03/02/google-
executive-schmidt-to-head-new-dod-advisory-board/) |||
[https://innovation.defense.gov/Media/Biographies/Bio-
Display...](https://innovation.defense.gov/Media/Biographies/Bio-
Display/Article/1377390/dr-eric-schmidt/)

~~~
wololo
Regarding [2], the sensationalized, alarmist way the media reported this was
not remotely accurate, nor would the conspiracy theory angle on this story
make any practical sense.

~~~
jazzyjackson
Sorry, what's not practical about Google increasing their location accuracy
for the benefit of both the consumer and the government?

~~~
square_usual
The second link isn't about that, it's about Google stealing information from
insecure WiFi using Street View vehicles.

------
gigatexal
Here in Germany I used to work for a company that swore off Amazon and other
US cloud vendors because of things like this: the relationships between them
and the government are too tight. They didn’t want German user data being
compromised. It could have been FUD to do things on premises or what not but
it seemed to make sense at the time and now with this...

~~~
ghgr
Exactly. I'm constantly surprised how many companies carelessly upload all
their internal documents to Google Docs, S3, Dropbox, GitHub, Slack et al. I'd
suggest that anything that's not supposed to be public never be uploaded to
such services, specially if you are not from the US. The way to go even for
small tech companies is self hosting, except maybe for email, due to GMail
marking your emails as spam from what I've heard.

~~~
ornornor
My company self hosts everything. They’re so bad at it. Something is always
down and we waste so much time with our shorty tooling. We even had this
amazing idea that we could implement our own version of GCP from scratch. The
result is dismal, we dread using it because it’s very unreliable, and it costs
double or triple what GCP costs. We’re not a small company, we have about 1k
employees and our business is software.

~~~
Kinrany
Is there yet an open-source alternative to GCP? Can you buy bare metal and
just have your own cloud?

~~~
syshum
OpenStack is probably the closest but it will not have everything GCP or AWS
has

~~~
Frost1x
It's probably enough for most organizations, though.

------
taftster
I understand the general sentiment here, and don't disagree. But I think
ultimately this is about dollars.

There is a LOT of money in the government defense sector. AWS is in an
excellent position to capture a lot of that money, but their primary
competitor in this space, Microsoft, has been preventing a complete domination
and monopoly by Amazon.

With Alexander on the board, this will ultimately lead to different/better
insights for how Amazon positions itself in this government sector. Alexander
can bring a ton of value, just with his contacts and networking alone, let
alone the insight into how security and data operations work in the
intelligence community.

Ultimately, this isn't a step towards more government surveillance. The
government can't coerce Amazon any more with Alexander on the board or not;
the rules are still the same. This is fundamentally about Amazon's desire to
get in on the lucrative big dollar contracts that would otherwise end up going
to traditional defense contractors like Lockheed, Boeing, Northrop.

~~~
doukdouk
> Ultimately, this isn't a step towards more government surveillance.

Architect of (illegal) government surveillance gets influential role in a
major Internet company.

I do not expect him to strongly criticize Amazon's privacy violations or
questionable data collection. I fully expect him to be supportive of Amazon
initiatives that will make for an easier government surveillance (even if only
for improving their chances at getting government contracts).

Of course the US government cannot coerce Amazon any more with Alexander on
board. Yet having powerful, government surveillance supporting, well versed in
building systems of government surveillance, individuals on the board will
surely have a very different impact than having a privacy rights activists on
the board.

~~~
ryanisnan
Totally this. It's highly unlikely Alexander will encourage overtly illegal
practices within Amazon, but he will have full knowledge of the "gray" areas
ripe for exploitation, and will utilize them to the best of his abilities.

------
newscracker
Will we see a “Drop Amazon” site (and social media campaign) on the lines of
“Drop Dropbox” [1] now? Or is Amazon too big and too entrenched that it’s
almost a lost cause? [2]

[1]: [https://www.drop-dropbox.com/](https://www.drop-dropbox.com/)

[2]: [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/technology/blocking-
the-t...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/technology/blocking-the-tech-
giants.html)

~~~
ffpip
Dropbox's founder said he would add end to end encryption as an option for the
privacy geeks. Sadly, more than 13 years later, it still has not been
implemented. Looks like it never will be.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8889](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8889)

~~~
akerro
I think you can use duplicati for it
[https://www.duplicati.com/](https://www.duplicati.com/)

~~~
ffpip
Yes. I can also use Cryptomator, Boxcrpytor , 7zip but that's not the point.

They should atleast provide an option

------
martinlaz
Snowden: It turns out "Hey Alexa" is short for "Hey Keith Alexander." Yes, the
Keith Alexander personally responsible for the unlawful mass surveillance
programs that caused a global scandal. And Amazon Web Services (AWS) host ~6%
of all websites.

[https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/1303829551999602688](https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/1303829551999602688)

------
sailfast
Counterpoint to a number of posts already on here regarding the bad for
privacy angle. Maybe not a terrible idea to have a board member with
significant experience understanding the threat nation states and other larger
private hacking concerns pose to one of the United States’ largest cloud
providers?

I understand this is all too incestuous, but I also can’t really say it’s a
bad move.

~~~
paganel
Keith Alexander is a well-known perjurer [1], he should be behind bars, not
earning millions sitting on the board of directors of companies worth
trillions. There's nothing "not bad" about this move, at least for our society
seen as a whole.

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/25/nsa-
re...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/25/nsa-reform-fire-
officials-lied)

~~~
deathgrips
Why on earth would it be a good idea to reveal highly classified information
to the entire planet during a televised hearing?

~~~
unionpivo
> reveal highly classified information to the entire planet during a televised
> hearing?

I mean he could just said that he cant't answer that question because its't
highly classified and this hearing is televised to entire planet, instead of
lying

~~~
deathgrips
Refusing to answer the question would be interpreted the same as saying "yes".

------
throwaway0a5e
How can an ostensibly consumer and business targeted company company allow
someone so anti-consumer on the board? Why doesn't anyone have the balls to
say "this guy shouldn't be on our board because if we have someone in cahoots
with the spooks on our board people will buy less dragon dildos and .223 fuel
filters and the sketchy SAAS providers will use less AWS for their crap
because their customers will be worried about the spooks exfiltrating their
data"

~~~
tenebrisalietum
Who's buying dragon dildos on Amazon?

Well ... I just searched and it seems they are available there. I did not know
that.

The real question is why is an ex-NSA agent working at a place that sells
dragon dildos?

In all seriousness though, if Amazon can predict what consumers want, they
will make more sales. An ex-NSA should have at least some experience in
analyzing behavioral data and predicting what large numbers of people do.

~~~
imglorp
No, no, no this is not about selling junk to people.

If you thought selling cheap junk to people was profitable, wait until you see
what selling mass surveillance to the government pays. Everyone that said,
it's an Orwell problem to have pervasive "assistant" devices was right. Look
how many billions NSA poured into scanning and indexing everyone's mails and
calls in Utah. Now you have OP and a few days ago Amazon PR objected calling
Echo a "microphone": all these dumbasses paid for these things and now it's
really here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24418854](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24418854)

We already know Eric Schmidt's Google is tight with the government, and look,
they make home assistants also.

[https://theintercept.com/2016/04/22/googles-remarkably-
close...](https://theintercept.com/2016/04/22/googles-remarkably-close-
relationship-with-the-obama-white-house-in-two-charts/)

[https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-
seems/](https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/)

------
nabla9
Alexander has shown the ability to make false statements using carefully
hedged words.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_B._Alexander#Statements_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_B._Alexander#Statements_to_the_public_regarding_NSA_operations)

------
eecc
After all the clamor about Huawei, arguing about effectively surrendering
national telecom infrastructures to the PRC Army, here we are. Surrendering
essential logistical infrastructure, essential internet infrastructure and the
Kindle dataset (useful for political profiling) to the US Intelligence.

So, are there sanctions on the table for the US? /s

~~~
tempodox
> Surrendering essential logistical infrastructure, ...

When all that happened, you can bet it wasn't as publicly visible as Alexander
joining their board.

------
mangix
Is this the same guy that lied to the crowd at defcon?

~~~
busterarm
And to Congress.

------
WarOnPrivacy
Keith Alexander was great. He was my goto example of how every PotUS puts
scumbags (exclusively) in charge of IC and LEO agencies.

Every president betrays us here. Every damn one.

------
alfiedotwtf
All those countries that migrated their national data into AWS with assurances
data was not within arms length of the US Spying Apparatus are slowly waking
up to the fact that their data is in fact within arms length of the US Spying
Apparatus.

------
vikramkr
Whoever is running Amazon's PR is either really good and has determined this
won't matter, or is really really incompetent. Based on how the PR for HQ2 in
NYC went, I'm suspecting the latter.

~~~
netsharc
Will it matter? The sheep (myself included) will still shop on Amazon.

~~~
vikramkr
Its not like they have no competition- if people end up trusting walmart more
than amazon we could see a shift happen. And again - HQ2. That was a huge
miscalculation that resulted in actual problems for them - they're not able to
get everything they want.

~~~
throwaway0a5e
Damn near every Amazon retailer who isn't drop shipping also has storefronts
on other major eCommerce platforms.

------
peterkelly
This is a big "fuck you, we can do whatever we want" message to everyone using
AWS who cares about customer privacy.

~~~
coronadisaster
Cloud computing is not really where it's at when you care about privacy.

------
adamsiem
Not installing any Alexa’s in my new house. They suck anyway. Literally no
practical use cases after 3 years other than being surveiled upon. Oh, and
“what’s the weather on the other side of this sheet of glass I’m standing
looking through? “ Lol

~~~
cheeze
Lots of people use them to turn on lights or listen to music. Maybe not your
workflow but IMO you sound a little silly strawmanning like that.

I don't own Alexas either, but it's obvious why 'normal folk' would like the
convenience.

~~~
feanaro
These use cases sound a bit like using a chainsaw to trim your beard.

------
harry8
So have Amazon got an assurance from this "gentleman" that he has stopped
committing crimes now?

Is his expertise for which he is being hired to help Amazon get away with
committing crimes on a massive scale which he clearly has expertise?

Is it reasonable to assume that Amazon, pushing their "Amazon Microphone" are
embracing criminal practise and believe criminal activity is ok?

------
leahey
This kind of revolving door stuff has been going on for as long as there has
been government and private industry. It's just as scary as ever, but no more.

The good news/bad news reality is Alexander is looking for a big payday after
years in government service -- not assist the government is using Amazon for
its own surveillance purposes, or assist Amazon in becoming better at
surveillance.

------
mocar
There's no former in NSA

------
louwrentius
There is this joke in the series 'Person of Interest' where it's stated that
Social Media was specifically invented for the purpose of data harvesting by
the 'NSA'. I think it's the same for cloud computing.

------
squibbles
It is about money. High-level government employees used to retire and work for
contractors that sold directly to the organizations the government retirees
came from. That is called a _revolving door_ and occurred with both military
and civilian employees. The practice of the _revolving door_ is recognized
widely as unethical.

To avoid concerns about ethics, many high-level government employees retire
and join either investment groups or boards of directors. This puts them once
removed from the money chain, but still allows them to line their pockets by
leveraging the power they accrued while working for the government.

------
mensetmanusman
Less conspiratorial thought:

Amazon does business to secure pentagon/etc. information. It is useful to have
someone on the board who thinks about nation-state level cyber threats in this
context.

------
severine
Well, the ad was right after all...

------
wrkronmiller
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_triangle_(US_politics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_triangle_\(US_politics\))

Amazon likes government contracts. Amazon probably wants this guy on-board to
help them get more contracts.

~~~
SamuelAdams
Well yeah. Government contracts have insane margins for virtually all private
sector companies that can get their hands on them. I used to work at a
manufacturing company that made car parts and military equipment. The military
contracts had margins that were easily 2-3 times what the car parts made. And
they required the same amount of labor, work, and time.

------
noja
Don't mention that microphone.

------
onetimemanytime
This is normal for most companies, they love to add former Generals,
politicians and other connected people to their board. It helps with foreign
countries, government contracts, investigations in USA and all.

------
richardARPANET
Nice cushy free do-nothing job, I wonder what he did to deserve that :)

------
leptoniscool
Amazon does have devices listening in every home. Is the concern here that
hiring Keith Alexander would make it easier for government to get people's
conversation data?

~~~
tasogare
> Amazon does have devices listening in every home.

No, they don’t. It’s a choice people make, and most aren’t buying Kindle, Echo
or other near useless spying device like that.

~~~
person3
Not true, a simple Google search reveals [1 in 4 US adults have a smart
speaker]([https://marketingland.com/roughly-1-in-4-u-s-adults-now-
owns...](https://marketingland.com/roughly-1-in-4-u-s-adults-now-owns-a-smart-
speaker-according-to-new-report-273994)). It _is_ a choice people make, and
most don't care about privacy.

Not that it matters though - phones are [already a
vector]([https://www.wired.com/2014/06/nsa-bug-
iphone/](https://www.wired.com/2014/06/nsa-bug-iphone/)) for the government to
listen to you. I'm not sure this news really changes anything - the government
already works with large US companies to spy on people, and then makes sure
they're not allowed to disclose it to the public.

Also, I think Kindle is a great product, and wouldn't consider it a useless
spying device. Each to their own though.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Well, the majority still aren't buying. The initial assertion was "in every
home", which is false in the majority of homes.

~~~
vageli
> Well, the majority still aren't buying. The initial assertion was "in every
> home", which is false in the majority of homes.

Are we assuming that all the individuals who purchased the devices live
completely alone? There are only 128 million households in the US. [0]

[0]: [https://www.statista.com/statistics/183635/number-of-
househo...](https://www.statista.com/statistics/183635/number-of-households-
in-the-us)

~~~
mahkeiro
You cannot imply this, the stats is about US adult, many adult may also have
the same speaker in their household.

~~~
vageli
This is precisely the point I was trying to make.

------
raxxorrax
Alexander is responsible for mass surveillance and will probably extend that
to Amazons workers. Not really a boon for Amazons image.

------
baxtr
Oh damn. This shows again, that you can do crazy shady things and still get
super high paying jobs later...

~~~
xyst
Reminds me of Operation Paperclip in the United States.

After WWII ended and in amidst a “space race” with Russia, German scientists
and other high ranking officials were recruited and placed into well paid
positions within the government - most notably NASA. Records of any war crimes
they may have committed during WWII were wiped away/ignored.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip)

------
k2enemy
I was already uncomfortable about using an Eero router and wifi and this just
pushes it over the edge.

------
poxwole
Wow. I mean, at this point even Conspiracy Theorists are like, "Bro!"

------
kumarvvr
There will come a time when, as a society, we will have to ditch Amazon, and
come up with alternatives to regular online retail.

I just hope technology and IT evolves so that online retail is decentralized.

~~~
Rebelgecko
I've moved most of my online shopping over to Walmart so I can support the
little guy

~~~
ta8908695
For a brief moment a thought this was a joke, but at only ~$392 Billion market
cap Walmart really is the little guy compared to amazon (1.64 Trillion)

------
HugoDaniel
Will they start to build proper consumer profiles now and stop recommending
the same thing I've just bought over and over ?

------
greenyoda
Discussion here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24426389](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24426389)

~~~
dang
Since most of that discussion is complaining about Zerohedge, maybe we'll
merge the rest of the comments hither.

------
lanevorockz
WEIRD !

------
afrojack123
Does this mean cloud companies are telecom companies?

------
lowdose
Is this the first fruit Jeff is eating from his personal stay in Washington?

