
Over 5,000 Ph.D. graduates work as janitors – Why? - nreece
http://whenyouputitthatway.com/phd-graduates-working-as-janitors/
======
dm2
I don't see how they can group electricians in the same category as front desk
clerks and parking lot attendants.

What are the disciplines of the PhD graduates? Were any of them earned online
or at an unaccredited university? These are important pieces of the puzzle.

There are 2 - 3 million people with doctorates in the US. I don't think it's
unreasonable to have a small percentage of that number in a low-paying job
because of whatever reasons they have (mental illness, committed crime, not
good in field, did something unethical in field.

With a few exceptions, if you have a PhD and the desire and ability to work,
it's not difficult to find a job.

~~~
doktrin
> _I don 't see how they can group electricians in the same category as front
> desk clerks and parking lot attendants._

Yeah, I wasn't sure if I had mis-read that statement. It makes absolutely no
sense. Financially, many electricians make more than I do (software engineer
working in research).

Money aside, I'm pretty sure I could find electrical work stimulating and
fulfilling. The same is most certainly not true of low level customer service.

~~~
cheald
Well, those who find electrical work stimulating usually aren't very good at
it.

~~~
doktrin
What is this statement based on?

~~~
cheald
It's a joke. If you're being "stimulated" (ie, electrocuted), then you might
be doing it wrong. :P

~~~
doktrin
_whooooooosh_

Nice one :)

------
27182818284
Something I feel this article misses is the market outside of the coasts of
the US. If you are one of those PhDs who isn't actively seeking to be a
janitor for the relaxation involved, and you're struggling for work, please
look at the Midwest or so-called No Coast.

There are tons of well-paying jobs in the Midwest for talented people.
Salaries are lower than a standard San Francisco job, but the quality of life
is so much higher here it makes up for it. The multi-million dollar homes of
Oakland and San Francisco can be yours here on a single person's salary
working about 40 hours a week. (Admittedly winters here are worse, but if you
do have to drive somewhere, wow you had to pay $5 or $9 for the whole day of
parking in a garage 50ft from your door.)
[http://www.siliconprairienews.com/2014/03/it-manager-full-
st...](http://www.siliconprairienews.com/2014/03/it-manager-full-stack-
developer-seo-specialist-and-45-more)

~~~
michaelochurch
I'm a fan of the Midwest in general and love the seasons (even in MN) but I
don't know that the jobs are there. My friend in Madison (a very intelligent
"ABD" who, as often happens in math PhD programs, burned out) got $45,000 in
his first programming job because his company had no competition. Even now, I
doubt he's higher than $90,000.

As for leaving SF/Boston/NYC, I moved to Baltimore, which is not the Midwest
and actually not that cheap. The two-body problem is a big part of why the
"star cities" are so attractive. I like Baltimore-- it's way better than its
reputation, although that ain't saying much-- but when I next search for a
job, I'll probably find more outside of Baltimore than inside. Also, there's
that two-body issue. This move has been good for my career but so-so for my
wife's, because there aren't many good companies here. We shouldn't have to
choose between one career or the other and, in the long run, we won't. The
costs of housing in San Francisco and New York are fucking criminal
(literally, if you look into the NIMBY issues) but knowing that both you and
your spouse will be able to find high-quality jobs for 10+ years is the draw.
I'd rather live in Minneapolis than San Francisco, but I'm pretty sure we
could live in San Francisco, career-wise, for at least a decade. Are there
going to be VP-level-but-mostly-coding machine learning positions in
Minneapolis in 2024? Not a clear call. And cross-country moves are stressful
and just get harder with age.

Of course, San Francisco and New York spit you out if you don't become, at
least in pay grade, Director-level by child-raising age. To be honest, I don't
think we'll move to either of those cities when we next relocate, because even
though we'll be able to afford it the expensiveness is horrible for the
culture. We ranked cities independently and Seattle topped both of our lists;
it's affordable (if not exactly cheap) and beautiful and neither of us has a
problem with 50-degree cloudy days. (In MN that was called "Early May".)

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I thought the correct acronym was ABCD?

Besides the weather, two body problems are one reason why the mid-west is
unappealing, but also your earnings generally scale with living expenses,
meaning you have more disposable income to spend on things whose price is
fixed across the country.

Seattle is my first choice for when I finally move back to the states, but I
grew up in the area. You have to be OK with 3 or 4 months of rain, however.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Abd is "all but doctorate". ABCD is an american with indian parents.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Ah! Never heard of the former before. PhD students usually wash out after
quals, I don't know of anyone who stops just before defending!

~~~
jaredsohn
I hear the term a lot when PhD students are hunting for faculty jobs (i.e.
trying to get a job lined up before defending their dissertation with the hope
that they do so before their start date.)

------
hawkharris
_the average Ph.D. is smarter...than their friend with a bachelor’s degree._

This raises an interesting question: what is intelligence? A cursory Google
search shows there's no solid consensus in academia. Having said that, there
was a symposium years ago (1921) in which thirteen leading psychologists
proposed definitions. [0] Here are a few of them:

1\. the tendency to take and maintain a direction

2\. judgment, otherwise called good sense, practical sense, initiative

3\. adjustment or adaptation to the environment. . .

4\. global capacity to act purposefully, think rationally, and deal
effectively. . .

5\. the ability to plan and structure behavior. . .

6\. the ability to solve genuine problems or difficulties. . .

While Ph.D. students have an impressive amount of specialized knowledge, they
don't seem to meet all of these criteria for intelligence. Some Ph.D. students
are spending hundreds of thousands on degrees without having a clear career
plan, then struggling to lead successful, productive lives once they graduate.

This seems opposite in some ways to the qualities of practical sense,
judgement and planning ability that characterize intelligence.

[0] [http://www.unc.edu/~rooney/iq.htm](http://www.unc.edu/~rooney/iq.htm)

~~~
rdl
It's mostly that the lower bound to get a PhD (at least in a non-imaginary
field) is higher than to merely get an SB. If you assume a non-pessimal
distribution[1], the average pHD will be smarter than the average SB.

[1] This isn't necessarily true of the smartest individuals, and you could
imagine a distribution where the 120-130 IQ people stick around to get PhDs,
but the SB people are 115-160 IQ, and they leave to go into other fields.
Probably true of English, Political Science, etc. -- the smartest people of
those undergrad programs probably go into law or finance rather than remaining
as grad students and professors within the field itself.

------
crazy1van
Getting paid more in a job is about providing more value to your employer.

Getting an advanced degree is about test taking, writing papers, and research.

They are not necessarily correlated. This is akin to wondering why excelling
at juggling doesn't make you more money in a programming job. Juggling just
doesn't add more value to that particular job.

~~~
tn13
A lot of times it is just "paying fees".

~~~
pavanred
I must agree, I am a Computer Science graduate student and one thing I have
noticed is that the only courses that always run out of registrations within a
minute (literally) of registration open are the ones in which the Professor is
known to hand out A grades to almost everyone who takes up his course.
Needless to say many students graduate with high GPA scores. At least in this
case, its just "paying fees".

~~~
arghnoname
Programs differ. I'm a CS grad student (PhD) and it seems like most people
don't even bother registering at all until a month before class or so. No one
cares about class all that much and for most courses getting an A or a B
(anything else is failing) is the expected course of action, though that isn't
to say the coursework is easy. You effectively couldn't graduate with less
than a 3.5 anyway, though again, no one cares about GPA. If you elect to do a
MS, the comp exams are another matter.

For the PhD, it's all research, research, research. For that same reason, some
people try to take classes that are reportedly less work or where active
research work can count toward a class project because otherwise, it takes too
much away from research time.

It's a very different experience for me than undergraduate because of the low
regard for class work (though doing poorly will invite mockery).

------
pjaun
I know one who does it because he is an alcoholic and a pedophile. Point
being, having a Ph.D. doesn't mean you can't screw up your life in a variety
of ways that limit your career options.

~~~
mathattack
The point of the article is many of these folks actually want to be janitors.
They have no debt and want a job that pays for 8 hours, but requires only 2 or
3 of actual work.

------
zacinbusiness
I have a masters degree in English and earn an average of $3k a month, putting
me on the low-end of the income spectrum. But I also work about...15-20 hours
a week, from home, and take regular naps and generally just screw around a lot
of the time. It's not the same as being a janitor, but it's similar in that
there's very little oversight and the work isn't really too bad. So I can
really understand the FU mindset, especially as I've worked B.S. jobs where
the manager is an idiot and where the work isn't important but the boss acts
like you're holding the keys to the nukes or something. I think a lot of the
guys that go into super science aren't really looking for huge pay checks
anyway. They love the science and the challenge, and they don't want to be
burdened with all the BS that comes with dealing with "regular people" because
we will get in their way. So I can respect that sort of decision.

~~~
michaelochurch
_I 've worked B.S. jobs where the manager is an idiot and where the work isn't
important but the boss acts like you're holding the keys to the nukes or
something._

[http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/01/01/fourth-
quadra...](http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/01/01/fourth-quadrant-
work/)

 _I think a lot of the guys that go into super science aren 't really looking
for huge pay checks anyway. They love the science and the challenge, and they
don't want to be burdened with all the BS that comes with dealing with
"regular people" because we will get in their way._

It ain't greener on the other side of the fence. Most software engineers work
on pointless shit (and complain about idiotic or short-sighted management) as
well.

The problem isn't that these product executives and bikeshedding non-techs
have low IQs. (We viciously lambast them as "retards" and "morons", but it
ain't true. If they were physically limited we'd be dickheads for judging
them. It's the _willful_ stupidity that's the sin.) They're more than smart
enough. The problem is that they (and half or more of all developers, to tell
the truth) are willingly intellectually half-assed. Once they get power it's
an excuse not to think. They do become genuinely stupid (in the low IQ sense)
over time but that atrophy takes decades.

In other words, it's not that "regular" people are the idiots who make our
lives hell. It's something to do with power structures and the anti-
intellectualism those seem to breed, even when filled with smart people.

~~~
zacinbusiness
I agree with your points whole heartedly. But when I say "bs" jobs I mean
working 7pm to 7am at the gas station where prostitutes will offer to blow you
for a cup of ice cream. And the manager acts like its a sign of the end times
that you didn't wear your name badge or that you didn't shave.

~~~
IndieDevClub
You've described the Managers at my part-time job exactly.

I spend 4 hours shoveling snow in near sub-zero temperatures and oops I missed
a spot by the side of the dumpster... who cares? Do customers go by the
dumpster? No. Is it affecting the garbage being picked up? No. Then why the
hell do they have to write a 10 sentence angry note to me for the next time I
work? They are so unbelievably insane.

But I am more resolved than ever. I will stay at that job until I make the
equivalent amount of money selling software. When I finally quit there it will
probably be one of the best days of my life.

~~~
zacinbusiness
I worked several shit jobs. Late nite gas stations, food delivery to gang
riddled neighborhoods, two factories, and a china warehouse. Not to mention
retail, which is even worse because you have to deal with idiot customers on
top of idiot managers. It can be an eye opening experience for sure.

------
pistle
Brilliance is great for party tricks, but requires a whole set of other
personality traits and social conditions to be valuable to the individual or
the society.

------
samiheinross
This article doesn't seem right to me. At least 90% of my friends studying
Ph.D. only because they couldn't find a decent job. They just postponed their
misery for five years living with the grant they get every month for
researching.

------
michaelq
About 50,000 PhDs are minted each year in the US. Assuming a working life of
40 years, that means there are about 2 million PhDs in the domestic labor
market.

Now take into account that:

1) For profit universities like University of Phoenix also issue PhDs. Most
employers don't take them seriously, but USBLS measures them just the same.

2) We're in the midst of the worst job market in generations, and it may
quickly become the worst job market since industrialization.

Given these circumstances, having 5,000 people, or about 0.25% of the PhD-
holding labor force, working as janitors does not sound like a particularly
significant datum for making broader assumptions about the value of the PhD.

------
pbnjay
I think the problem has more to do with students' motivation than the PhD
itself. In fact most of the grad students I've talked to in various stages
have no real plan for AFTER completing the degree. So they in turn have no
motivation for actually understanding the subject they've picked, and no
thought process for selecting a research project. They pick the easy topics
(or let their advisor pick for them) and don't attempt to study or understand
the stuff that will get them noticed or get them a job.

The whole point of the PhD is (supposed to be) preparing you for academic work
- it's a demonstration that you can do novel, creative, and independent
research at a level of your peers. It's not just proof you completed the
checklist like a BS. The problem is that many universities have turned it into
that.

The flipside of all this is that it's pretty easy to tell in an interview who
just "did the PhD thing" without any plan for what happens next. If you ask
me, that's what's going on here. The people who were aimless to begin with are
still aimless.

Source: I'm a recent PhD graduate, and work in an hybrid academic setting
interacting with current MS/PhD students.

------
marincounty
I'm not going to get Into the pile in hire and deeper, but honestly want is
wrong with making a living as a Janitor. I have never understood the reason we
identify ourselves by he we make our money? When I was looking for Skanks, and
the "One", the one question that literally that was really irritating
was,"What do you do??" I done many things in life, but I never once felt any
need to internalize my job, career as wham I am as a person. I feel our need
to ask "What to you do?" And have the person on the other end judging it is
left over from the evolutionary mating ritual. Hear me out--girl wants a fast
way of determining who will take care if her and baby--what better question?
The question is usually a lie, along with how much said question elicits, but
it is asked. When people ask am me why I do; my latest answer is a "recovering
porn addict, alcoholic, and drug user. Oh, yea I'm a Animal rights activist,
and spokesperson for the use of birth control". When I find a person who
actually get's it I would slave away at any job in order to satisfy her
consumerism, and need for a big cave. As to being a Janitor, I get it. It's
solitary. You can think. In college, I always worked as a security guard, or
mini storage manager; I didn't have to deal with anyone, and I could
concentrate on what I was really interested in. (I looked for jobs where I
knew I would be watching a building, or something other than people. And, mini
storages are always 95% full. You can sit and read and code for eight hours).
Good luck people, I hope judging people on what they do evolves into
extinction. And please, when asked this rediculios question--try to verbally
instruct the person on their shallow intellect.

~~~
gregpilling
I hated that question when I was dating also. I usually answered "many
things". I also do not think my work defines me.

It also brings to mind the movie "Sabrina" with Audrey Hepburn, who father in
the movie was a chauffeur so that he could spend his days reading books while
between driving stints.

------
tn13
"College Degree" is a meaningless phrase. I run a business which employs
engineers, electricians, mechanical hardware designers as well as technical
writes and so on. Now, if any of those hotel front desk staff or Janitors had
any monetizable skill I would hired them for a price higher than that of
Janitor but less what what I have been paying to my current employers and thus
increase my profits.

A lot of those hotel front desk staff and janitors simply wasted their money
on college degrees and the so called Phds. They should have taken a bit more
realistic education.

------
frozenport
What if you got a PhD from Bulgaria in literature, left for the USA in 1991,
and are 60 years old?

Are you in the same category as a well connected graduate from a top computer
science program.

The lack of analysis and generalizations make this article meaningless. If
your title is a question, give me a damn answer.

------
michaelochurch
First, beyond about a 145 IQ (I'll side-step, for now, the difficulties of
measuring beyond 140; note that I'm talking about the underlying "g" rather
than test scores themselves) typical work boredom becomes a crippling,
anxiety-inducing disability but, because few people can or want to sympathize
with that problem, it often gets misconstrued as an attitude issue. After a
few years of professional failure, a lot of those people go into blue-collar
work where their bodies are worked but their minds are free.

Second, while IQ and mental illness actually don't correlate, creativity
(which is very helpful for getting a PhD in many fields) is correlated with
mental health issues.

~~~
dil8
> Second, while IQ and mental illness actually don't correlate, creativity
> (which is very helpful for getting a PhD in many fields) is correlated with
> mental health issues.

Do you have any sources for this? I would like to read the some of the
studies.

