
Ask HN: Am I making too much? - notimportant
Hi HN, posting this anonymously as my regular account contains my name.<p>I have been working as a developer for well over 10 years, have worked in both small companies as well as large agencies. I keep up to date with various technologies and attempt to learn best practices and methodologies. I do not have a college degree and so far that hasn't been much of an issue with jobs in NYC.<p>I am currently making $110k, and have consistently increased in salary year after year as well as from job to job - but I am concerned I am slowly starting to reach my upper limit on how much I will be able to earn as simply a developer - am I wrong in assuming this? Are my possible salary expectations for future positions (I am currently employed, however open to new opportunities and have recently had a few interviews that I am waiting to hear back on) too high?<p>Any feedback would be appreciated.
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ardit33
Rule of thumb in the valley, for a good senior level engineer (6+ years of
experience), is about 120-140k salary, plus 10-20k bonus. That's what I think
are averages, for GOOD/above average engineers in established companies (not
startups). Keep in mind that a good or average engineer in some companies,
could be easy a superstar in other companies. They are always outliers for
expectational people, but it seems that the places that pay consistently less:

1\. Don't care for top talent (they may not really need it).

2\. Are not usually worth working for (eg. gaming industry / old finance/
companies that view tech as a cost)

3\. Offer some kind of life quality balance and don't expect high outputs from
their employees.

If you are not happy with your current salary you can still interview around
and find another job. Don't necessary quit, but at least you would know whats
out there. If your think your job is easy/cushy, then 110k is not that bad,
but actually good. You can easily go somewhere else, and get a 20k bumb, but
find out you have to work twice as hard. If you are really challenged, and are
stressed, and feel underpaid, then you must do something:

1\. Ask for a raise. 2\. Find another job that pays better.

What I found out, is that no matter how fun the job is, if you feel
'underpaid', over time that will create some feelings of resentment and
unhappiness. Also, if you get paid well, but hate the job, then you would
still feel unhappy.

The happy medium, is finding something that you really like, and are happy
with the salary at the same time (usually when you think you are on the higher
range salary compared to your peers).

~~~
yummyfajitas
_it seems that the places that pay consistently less:...old finance_

I think you should clarify what "old finance" is. Finance in general pays
considerably more than average.

~~~
ardit33
eg. Wells Fargo, Fidelity Investments (where I had my first job), etc... they
seem to have the 'cheaper' better mantra, view tech as a cost center, and like
outsourcing too much. I am not necessary talking about wall street.

------
portman
I'm in the Washington DC area, in which salaries are typically lower than NYC
but higher than most other metropolitan areas in the US.

The highest-paid _non-management_ developer that I know of had a base salary
of $185k. That may or may not be the ceiling, but there certainly is _some_
salary ceiling.

Ways to break through that salary ceiling:

1\. Direct reports. If you manage even one person, then base salaries quickly
go into the $200 and $300 thousands.

2\. Highly specialized _technical_ knowledge. For example, I know SAP
implementers with base salaries in the $200s. They're not really "developers"
anymore however.

3\. Highly specialized _domain_ knowledge. For example, a developer with
enough knowledge of organic chemistry can make a $200k+ base at a
pharmaceutical company.

4\. Work for yourself. A fully-loaded consultant will easily make mid-$200k
and I know several people who are consistently grossing in the low $300ks.

Note the importance of _base_ salary. Bonuses and profit sharing can easily
add 50% or more to your earnings. For example, the $100k developer at CoStar
is probably taking home more than the $175k developer at AOL.

~~~
kls
_4\. Work for yourself. A fully-loaded consultant will easily make mid-$200k
and I know several people who are consistently grossing in the low $300ks._

I will second that one. This seems to be about the norm for a developer turn
consultant (at least in my group of freelancers) with a decade under their
belt.

I don't think you are at your upper bound of your career level, but you are
not far off, 150k seems to be the ceiling where you are going to start
bouncing up and down.

A recruiter called me the other day to see if I had a flash developer in my
network looking for a long term gig. They where offering 90k + 15% bonus for a
flash developer with 3 years experience. So you are not that much higher than
a mid level flash developer, I would not worry too much.

~~~
StavrosK
I'm sorry, but I never understood: What does "consultant" entail, exactly? Is
it writing code for other companies, telling their devs how to write code,
telling them how to engineer their systems, or what exactly?

~~~
Jd
Here's what I do:

(1) Write code that in house devs could not write. Usually integrations for
multiple technology sets, including things that I can teach myself that others
would need training for, and otherwise complicated pieces that might otherwise
be neglected. Usually after I deliver an "app" (I usually try to stick to a
self-contained deliverable), I participate in training the in house devs to
maintain it (assuming that it needs to be changed).

(2) In my limited experience very few companies that have "bad" code in house
recognize that their code is bad, so refactoring / optimizing / architecting
is usually neglected. That said, I try to get in on the architecting side --
make sure good design principles are adhered to. I try never to re-write other
people's code.

I'm flush with work and us. bill out approximately 25-30k per month and am
always looking for subs to handle things that I can't (contact me if
interested).

There are, of course, taxes that hit me then and I don't particularly like the
work that I do so try to take longish vacations to work on projects of
interest, but still I'm easily making upwards of 200k as a developer.

But then again, hackers might think of me (quite legitimately) as the trash
collector of developers, mucking about in enterprise frameworks that no legit
hacker would want to write code in. I guess that's why I'm paid so much...

Basically the trick is getting out w/ one big customer, letting that take up
70% of your time, working in subs on things that you can't handle yourself
(but this may be difficult, none of my subs make less than $100 / hr),
pursuing other projects that get you recognition (open source is good),
actively contributing to the community, and then, unfortunately for many
developers, networking.

But mostly I try to let my code network for me...

~~~
StavrosK
That was very informative, thank you. Is $100/hr typical for the US? Maybe
I've been undercharging at $55...

~~~
kgermino
I don't know what's typical but the best way to see if you're charging too
little is to put in some bids for $60, then $65, and so on and see what
happens.

I have worked for a guy that was able to increase his prices nearly 25% (for
new customers at least, he understandably didn't want to raise rates for the
longtime customers who got him started) just by slowly raising his bids until
he found what enough people would pay.

Disclaimer: This was for a construction company that got new customers by
word-of-mouth YMMV

~~~
portman
This.

I vividly remember the day that I woke up and decided that from now on, I
would charge $175/hr instead of $125/hr. Bookings actually _increased_.

Just keep raising your rates until

(a) You can't get any more gigs, or

(b) You feel too guilty to raise them anymore.

~~~
krelian
Just curiosity but how exactly do you market yourself? How do your clients
find you?

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Zev
Out of curiosity, what would you have done if someone had said "Yes, you are
making too much money."

~~~
notimportant
Fair question - I would be more realistic in my future job opportunities and
take a better view at my current job. I would obviously strive to make the
most I can with my skill-set, but I wouldn't price myself out of jobs that I
am qualified for.

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anonymousse
(posting anonymously for obvious reasons)

Like a recent HN post highlighted, expertise in a disruptive niche is very
helpful in breaking down salary barriers. That being said, I would expect
mid-100s to be within reach of a strong, senior, non-managing engineer in
SF/NYC with no particularly disruptive expertise.

For what it's worth, here's my experience:

I'm on the operations side, and have gained experience building reasonably
large-scale, cloud-hosted infrastructure in my past few jobs. I'm in my mid-
twenties, and have not completed my college degree.

\- mid-2008: 75k (plus options) as a sysadmin (non-managing) for a 30-person
startup in a mid-American city

\- early 2010: 100k (plus options) as a sysadmin (non-managing) for a
15-person startup in SF

\- mid-2010: 160k (plus 70k/yr stock+bonus) as a systems architect (managing a
team of two, but this wasn't required) for a public company in the Bay Area (I
also turned down an offer for 130k+options at a NYC startup)

~~~
archon
Mind providing a link to that recent HN article? I missed it.

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jrockway
Always a tough issue. I know that as you move up a little bit in the hierarchy
at my company, you start seeing people in NYC making around $500,000 + bonus
in "technology roles", so that's my mental upper limit. I don't see myself
ever making more than that.

As for determining my own value, I worked for a lot of cheap companies early
on and am still trying to compensate for that. It's all about guessing the
right number with no actual data, which is a pain. If I knew that all
programmers made $x per year, I would ask for $x plus a small premium (because
let's face it, I can do more than just FizzBuzz).

But there is no data, and nobody will ever talk about salary with me, so I
just have to make it up. (Digression: why will people talk about their darkest
sexual fetishes, but not how much money they make. Do The Corporations really
have us by the balls _that much_?)

My current line of thinking: I read something on HN a few weeks ago that
claims top CS students start at $80,000 these days. Having worked with people
straight out of college, even the best colleges, I don't think I would have
any trouble doing twice as much work over the course of a year. Probably more
like 10x, when you include things not dying in production, not having to
rewrite the whole app every time someone wants to make a change, etc. So with
that in mind, I don't think $160,000 would be unreasonable to ask for if you
have a bit of experience and proven ability. You _must be_ worth more than two
people straight out of college.

So, I'm going to aim for that at my next opportunity.

~~~
nostrademons
"I read something on HN a few weeks ago that claims top CS students start at
$80,000 these days. Having worked with people straight out of college, even
the best colleges, I don't think I would have any trouble doing twice as much
work over the course of a year."

Companies don't offer fresh college grads $80K/year because they think the
college grads are worth it, they do it so that they can have their pick of the
litter for $100K 5 years later, when they're actually worth like $150K, and
not have to spend the extra money poaching them away from other companies.

Your value as a developer goes up pretty fast as you gain experience, but most
people have some semblance of company loyalty, particularly if they've never
worked anywhere else. Outsize salaries for fresh grads are an investment, a
hopes that they can retain the best of those fresh grads for well below
market-rate salaries in the future.

------
trunnell
Check out GlassDoor.com - they are actively trying to fix problem of lack of
data about compensation. People post actual salary data as well as detailed
company reviews.

Note that they do require a free registration after your first few searches.
The registration requires you to enter a salary or company review, which is a
pretty fair trade.

~~~
kls
I don't know too much about Glassdoor, but what I have seen from some of the
other sites they tend to quote rates under the prevailing wages. When I was a
exec, I had a hiring manager that reported to me, but all compensation was via
HR oversight. They lived and died by one of the salary sites. For a particular
position the site said that the market average was 75k. Everyone that came
through the door wanted no less than 110k. The guys that had strong resumes
where in the $150k range (this was a very specialized role). Because of those
site under representing the market, My manager was unable to fill the roll so
I asked for an increased budget and kept paying $300hr for a specialized
consultant. Anyway, the point is I am leery of the salary sites after that
experience.

~~~
notimportant
Agreed - those sites tend to hurt the market when relied on like that - at the
same time it would be interesting to see peoples honest salaries - perhaps
without mentioning company names but instead just their primary roles or
titles. This information can possibly prove to be useful much as the info from
this thread has been useful to me.

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netmau5
Wow, I was starting to feel a bit underpaid, but now I'm sure of it. I'm
making 72 with 5 years and I think my peers think of my chops highly. I live
down south so I'd expect the salaries to be less, but not 50%+. I really need
to move to a bigger tech hub.

~~~
timr
Remember: the bay area is a _ridiculously_ expensive place to live. This is an
area where a small house in the burbs with a bad commute will start around
$600,000. My rent (in a marginal neighborhood in SF) is more than a mortgage
payment in most parts of the country.

Depending on where you live, $70k may easily match the spending power of 150k
in the valley.

~~~
netmau5
I researched living in Seattle for a while, so I definitely know how steep the
difference is in cost of living. Sometimes I feel like it is a little
overstated though.

I think the calculations assume you intend to live there permanently; if you
don't, a large investment in a home is irrelevant. I think this factor is what
makes it possible for so many to come work on visa for less than a citizen
would make: they intend to go back to their lower cost location with money in
the bank.

Also, as software engineers, the value we create isn't as localized as it is
in many other professions. This fact doesn't account for too much, but it also
means our salaries shouldn't be linearly bound to cost-of-living.

On another note, I'm glad to see demand for developers result in some
increased salaries. We've been hearing much about the Google/Facebook
recruiting wars in this regard. Salaries dove and stagnated after the last
recession, albeit it was a radically different situation in nature.

~~~
snprbob86
I'm a single guy living in a high-quality studio apartment in Seattle's
Capital Hill neighborhood. I eat out _often_ , drink _too much_ beer, and
participate in many other costly social/event outings. I've got a car in the
garage, insurance(s), and several other expenses for "nice to haves". I spend
about $35k/yr. Before quitting, I was making $86k/yr plus benefits/bonus/stock
as a new college hire with a strong resume.

~~~
darklajid
I really need to visit the states if beer is that cheap over there.. :)

On a sidenote, to add something on-topic: So a fresh graduate (with a strong
resume, granted) in Seattle makes 130% of my 5 years experience salary in one
of the biggest cities in Germany. I cannot believe the cost of living is that
much higher, so - wow, I'm impressed.

~~~
DennisP
I used to live in Germany and I gotta tell ya, the cheap beer here will deeply
disappoint you.

------
devmonk
Similar situation, but I don't live in NYC. There is somewhat of a salary
ceiling from what I've seen for the average developer (where "senior" is as
far as most typically get). However, I have known a few devs that do multiple
jobs (typically supplementing pay with part-time), and contractors can work
longer hours or have niche experience that can make a good bit more.

If you're willing to take it to the next level, there are plenty of
opportunities. See the salary range on left here:

[http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=Java+Developer&l=New+York%2...](http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=Java+Developer&l=New+York%2C+NY)

Instead of looking for senior dev positions, look for principal dev, lead
architect, etc. After you interview for one of those types of positions,
you'll see what they are looking for: leadership experience, system and
application design, real-world experience with enterprise system/application
development (high load, money involved, etc.), flexibility in methodology, and
dealing with loads of documentation, process, etc. You usually would have more
opportunity to get that kind of experience in a larger more structured shop
(banks, financial institutions, large company, etc.). I would stay the hell
away from them though, personally. The politics and lack of ability to feel a
part of the whole business will suck the life out of an entrepreneurial
developer.

I assume that since you are here you are considering going off on your own or
starting a company or have thought seriously about it? If you do this, be
prepared to lower your salary not raise it. However, if you are doing what you
love to do, you'll probably be good at it, and you'll be more successful.

If you don't feel you are good enough to make what you are making now
somewhere else, maybe it is time to either start training, or start looking
into what you really want to do with your life. Procrastination (which I'm
good at) is not going to make you more successful.

~~~
notimportant
Thank you for the reply;

I haven't used indeed in so long, I wasn't even aware that there was a salary
range option - I've relied far too much on recruiter presented opportunities
(even though I am aware that that is generally a poor decision).

I am avoiding the financial sector as well as larger institutions like the
plague - I want to continue to stay on the top of my game and not get bogged
down by business politics - even the agency lifestyle seems to do that.

I would love to go off on my own, and willing to take a pay cut (once my wife
enters the work force and we are able to do so), but I am sadly not sure how I
would eventually do that. Freelancing failed for me, and starting my own
business is something that would require more business skills than I have.
Sadly, procrastination is also my enemy.

I think I am good enough to be earning my salary, and even believe I could be
earning more - my primary concern is that I will be too expensive for the jobs
that I want.

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b3b0p
Wow, living in Oklahoma these numbers are mind blowing to me.

I understand cost of living comes into play, but 2x-3x what I make currently?
If I was making 6 digits where I am would be living like a rockstar,
seriously.

What is it like living in San Francisco, New York, Seattle, etc with $120k -
$180k salary lifestyle wise with that high of a pay check? How comfortable
financially are you?

I'm about $52k or so at about 4 yrs out of school, comfortable (so I think),
living in a one bedroom apartment and saving about $2k per month after all my
bills, expenses, taxes, food, etc. I don't think I get a bonus. I really don't
keep track that much as I don't spend much, I don't think about it.

Edit: spelling/grammar

~~~
notimportant
Info for NYC:

At $110k (but as a sole breadwinner currently) I still live paycheck to
paycheck. After taxes I am looking at approx $78k a year; my bi-weekly take-
home is a couple dollars shy of $3k and my rent was $1800 for a small 2
bedroom condo but we have downgraded to a basement studio for $500 so we can
pay off all our debts (wife's schooling, far too many credit cards, a far too
expensive wedding and various other things). So far we have made a huge impact
on our debt and we will soon start saving for a house.

If you were living directly in the city, you would need to double or even
triple the rent. I do end up paying for it in commute time (2 to 3 hours worth
of travel each day), but it allows us to get by just that little more.

~~~
TheSOB88
Sounds like you really are having a tough time of it. 3 hours of commute, and
you're not even excited by your job. It does sound like you need a change of
pace.

You should look into working from home some days - it'd probably make you much
happier. If you haven't read Tim Ferriss's 4-Hour Work Week, it has a great
section on how to convince your boss to let you work from home. It's a good
book - overrated, but good.

~~~
notimportant
At times I do work from home - but generally it's because I was up until
midnight coding to meet some deadline that is highly unrealistic, and not
planned out appropriately. Working from home is highly "frowned upon" by upper
management and not something that is generally accepted, even though I have
everything I need and more at my home office.

~~~
TheSOB88
Who says upper management has to know about it? If you know it'd make you
happier, and you know you can deliver the results, you should go for it.
There's always gonna be obstacles you have to overcome. Don't let them stop
you.

------
cloudhead
No. You can expect to double that if you're at the top of your game. It all
depends on the company: those hiring top talent will _start_ at ~$100k.

~~~
rdoherty
Agreed. I'm 27 and was making more than $110k/year working for a top company
in the valley. And I was a middle of the road engineer compared to some of the
geniuses there.

~~~
superfan155
_cough_ yahoo _cough_

~~~
jackowayed
Looks like Mozilla: <http://www.ryandoherty.net/about-me/>

------
grandalf
If you're really good you're probably worth twice that. Considering how lousy
so many developers are who are routinely paid $80K, there is every reason why
paying someone with solid experience and high productivity $200K+ would be a
very smart thing to do.

~~~
ww520
That sounds good in theory. Everyone keep saying good developers are 10X more
productive than average ones. However, I rarely see companies paying 10X
salary to top developers. The top salary is usually at 2X of the average, with
some industries paying 4X or 5X for bonus, like trading firms.

In a conversation with the Sr VP of Eng in my last company on why so many
engineers have become managers, I mentioned that the pay scale for the top
engineering position (architect) was equivalent of a senior eng director and
it was very hard to become one. He said, well, he could talk to the board to
create a Sr Architect position equivalent to VP's pay. The problem is there
are more management positions than senior engineering positions like architect
or principle. The engineers end up going the management route to get better
pay.

But you can tell the general mentality that engineers should not make more
than the management's pay structure. It's very hard to justify to others to
pay someone 10X of the average.

~~~
DennisP
I recently attended some presentations by a guy who used to be a CIO, missed
writing code, and figured out how to get work as a developer at near the CIO-
level pay his family was accustomed to.

First step was getting really good; he recommended doing lots of code katas
and taking jobs where all the other developers are better than you. As you go,
develop a public reputation by blogging, travelling around doing
presentations, etc. Be willing to move frequently, the high-paying jobs won't
necessarily be local. Generally they're at companies where software is the
main product, not just an "IT cost."

Here's his slide deck from that presentation:
[http://www.docondev.com/2010/05/take-control-of-your-
develop...](http://www.docondev.com/2010/05/take-control-of-your-development-
career.html)

------
hogu
You could try working in finance. Ideal job is to work as a developer on a
trading desk. You probably won't get much more as a base salary, but you can
get a bonus ~ 70% of your base. But it is stressful.

you need to work on the trading desk though, the closer to the money you are,
the more $$ you make.

------
gaoshan
Just FYI for anyone reading this. I make slightly less than half what the OP
does but I have tons of time to spend with my family, can run off and do what
I want whenever I want (almost). As long as the work gets done I can schedule
my time as I see fit. I also take, about once a year, month long vacations in
other countries and work from there. I make quite a bit less but live in a
lower cost of living area and have good "quality of life". In my personal case
I find this to be a nice balance.

------
takrupp
I really depends on the technologies. I work in mostly the quant finance
industry, which usually uses object oriented languages like C++ and Java. The
bigger companies (mostly hedge funds) do want to see candidates with at least
a BS in Computer Science. The smaller companies really don't care as long as
you have a good proven track record and know your material.

In my industry, making $110k for 10 years of experience is low. Probably
someone like you would be making at least $130k total, maybe more like
$160-170k.

This is a well paying industry though. Firms in the Valley usually are a
little lower, more in the $120-140k range for 10 years of relevant experience.

If you are a programmer in web technologies, though, I think you are pretty
inline. There might be some upward mobility, but not much unless you start
managing people and moving more hands off, which will increase your top line
but may limit where you can move (its easier to find a hands on job than a
management job).

You seem well paid and established enough where applying to NYU or Columbia to
get a BS may make lot of sense. These are expensive programs, but I think
getting a brand name degree in the NYC market helps a lot. The BS that you
would get from these programs versus a CUNY program would be worth it.

With all of this said: The tech startup industry in NY is growing. You might
need to take a hit on comp, but if you join something you think is promising,
you can really grow your compensation and standing with a small firm. Check
out the NY Hatchery events to start getting a feel for startups. Many of them
are looking for good people.

------
gorbachev
I've fluxuated between 100K to 350K in the past 5 years.

You don't HAVE to ask for a higher raise every time you get a new job. Going
from finance to non-finance pretty much requires you to take a pay cut anyway.

The salary ceiling depends entirely on the industry you work for. I would
think on average you still should have ways to go especially in NYC.

------
staunch
I'd say ~$180k is the highest you can expect to get in a job that you (or at
least I) would actually want as a non-managing programmer. The jobs that pay
significantly more (such as hard core finance) tend to pay a lot more because
the work is life-shortening, specialized, and reputation-based.

~~~
notimportant
That is my greatest fear - going in to on hands management, or full on
management. Hard core finance is more my nightmare and I won't even consider
that :)

------
dotBen
Regardless of your ability, there will obviously be fewer and fewer jobs at
higher and higher salaries - which is one of the angles behind the salary
ceiling.

One way to circumvent this is to simply take more equity, assuming you are
working for a venture-backed startup or company. In start-up land (ie Series A
funding or below) you might find it hard to find anyone earning more than
$150k but you could simply take more equity.

Of course you have to assume the equity is worth something but if you are that
good then presumably your involvement will have a noticeable and demonstrable
difference on the overall success of the company.

------
espinchi
Silly question: Are we talking gross salary or the net pay that the employee
perceives?

~~~
adoyle
In the US, these discussions are pretty much always about gross pay. People
also don't include the value of benefits other than bonuses, and as you see,
bonuses are explicitly stated. I gather that in other countries it makes more
sense to talk about net.

~~~
z92
So how much should one expect to pay as taxes off his, say 170K salary?

~~~
assemble
I'm not a tax guy, but based off my experience:

Assuming he's single: Federal taxes will be around $47.6k. (~28% at $170k, the
33% bracket hits you at $171,550.) State taxes vary widely. Some cities even
have income taxes (e.g. NYC). Next you would have to add in investments,
interest on investments, things like that as your income. Then you've got to
consider deductions from your home, education, etc.

So it's a bit more complex than a simple percent; however, I would budget for
a 35-40% effective income tax rate ($59.5k - $68k) in my state; however, in my
state the cost of living is about half that--so taxes would be off $85k
instead of $170k.

------
niqolas
Move to Australia and work for the Government... I know plenty of developers
earning AUD$80+/hr on 2000hr/yr contracts (i.e. earning approx. AUD$160k/yr).

------
known
It is better to plan your retirement by the time you reach 40.

------
zuggywugg
Expect nothing short of millions. Why would you settle for anything less?

------
robinduckett
I've been a developer for a third of the time you have, and I earn £17k a
year, which is roughly $26,858 a year.

Stop being a whiny bitch, you already get paid more than most people.

~~~
petercooper
The UK is a horrible market outside of contracting. Even reasonably niche
developer positions can wobble around £40-60k (US 60-100k-ish) before they
start to turn into management roles, and in the south east, living expenses
can almost be as bad as the Valley.

~~~
dhilton
Agreed. Apart from large internet companies (or clever small ones)and finance
stuff, pay can be poor when benchmarked.

