
Being tired isn’t a badge of honor – Signal v. Noise - tilt
https://m.signalvnoise.com/being-tired-isn-t-a-badge-of-honor-fa6d4c8cff4e#.vxglxiv8y
======
EarthIsHome
This hits home with me. I live where I work (~15 min bicycle ride each way, 10
if I'm fast). I could also walk. I love this life; I haven't owned a car in
five years.

The past month, I've been assigned to work 17 miles out. My commute went from
a pleasant 15 minutes one way to 1 hour and 15 minutes one way on sidewalks
and shitty to no bicycle infrastructure in the suburbs. I take a bus for a
portion of it.

This change has disrupted my whole life; I now truly know what people mean by
the term "the daily grind". You wake up, do your routine, go to work, do work,
come home, and go to sleep. Repeat. Every day. It's depressing. It seeps into
your whole life outside of work and affects your well being.

After spending the last few years living and working within the radius of a
few miles, after two days of working 17 miles away, I loathe it. The enjoyable
work turns sour and it's hard to do your best.

I truly don't understand how people spend their days like this. I really feel
for those who don't own a car and don't live close to their place of work.
Some of the people on the bus work two jobs; just imagine spending that much
time commuting and working just to get by.

~~~
criddell
My office is close to my home (35-40 minutes by either bike or car because
traffic is heavy) and I actually look forward to the days I drive. That drive
gives me 35 minutes to enjoy my coffee and listen to an audio book or podcast.
It's a peaceful time of the day.

I live in the 'burbs now and I don't think I could ever go back to high-
density living. When I was in my 20's, the energy of the city was
electrifying. In my 40's, the peace of the neighborhood is calming. I love
having community pools and tennis and basketball courts. I like having
maintained trails for walking my dog. I love having a big garden. I like my
neighbors and my gigabit internet.

I'm just waiting for self-driving cars to be available so that I can move
further out of the city.

~~~
EarthIsHome
This is an aspect I haven't felt (yet). Ask me in several years how I feel
again. ;P I'm in my 20s, so the city's energy is what I love.

------
Joeri
I had the 'benefit' of coming in to a low pressure job early in my career
sitting next to colleagues in a high pressure situation. Seeing the cognitive
decline worsen day after day convinced me very early on that working all those
hours provided only downside, not upside, and in the ensuing decade nothing
dissuaded me of that. I'm not even convinced that the 40 hours i work myself
is itself not too much. Less hours worked means you can't power through but
have to replace endurance with wits, which leads to much better decision-
making. Of course, sometimes there is no substitute for hard sustained work,
but if you're too tired to see the substitutes, then many problems end up
needing that hard workload to solve.

~~~
Bahamut
Not only that - you lose sight of the larger problems that need solving, but
don't get to solve for too long that it becomes forgotten.

I've worked some 30-35 hour weeks at my current job, but work has been super
happy with my productivity that it isn't an issue (plus I do a lot of open
source work outside the job, so work still benefits from that) - occasionally
I still participate in some prolonged hours due to major deadlines, but those
deadlines are malleable and not prioritized over product team work-life
balance.

It is a refreshing contrast with the typical startup here in the Bay Area

------
zamalek
As an employee I used to subscribe to the no sleep model, deluding myself into
believing that I was being productive.

The truth is that I was probably being productive, but the reality is that I
was being productive toward destructive ends. I learned a lesson and, unlike
_every_ other developer where I work, I stick to it. If I'm doing overtime it
is because of exceptional circumstances. My company has learned to respect
that - I'd wager that many would.

Just the other night I had a meeting with my brother about some design issues
around an API (usability and guidance toward strong patterns for 3rd party
devs). We have very similar brains (thought patterns and overall intellect)
but unlike me he still overworks himself. Once I grasped the problems, the
solutions were strikingly obvious to my well-rested mind. He'd been struggling
for at least a week.

I wish we could have some more science done on this stuff (specifically
relating to tech). I have a huge amount of experience-based evidence pointing
toward the factuality of this article, but anecdotes and personal experience
are not how you sway decision makers.

~~~
cpncrunch
>I wish we could have some more science done on this stuff (specifically
relating to tech). I have a huge amount of experience-based evidence pointing
toward the factuality of this article, but anecdotes and personal experience
are not how you sway decision makers.

There is a lot of science out there. Henry Ford was one of the first major
employers to figure out that when his employees had higher productivity when
their work hours were reduced from 9 hours a day to 8. The interesting thing
is that _total_ productivity is increased (as well as productivity per hour)
by working fewer hours. Working long hours long-term is highly detrminental.

[https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/crunc...](https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/crunchmode/econ-
hours-productivity.html)

~~~
vvanders
There's also been a recent study in the GameDev space called "The Games
Outcomes Project" which specifically looked at crunch:
[http://gamasutra.com/blogs/PaulTozour/20141216/232023/The_Ga...](http://gamasutra.com/blogs/PaulTozour/20141216/232023/The_Game_Outcomes_Project_Part_1_The_Best_and_the_Rest.php)

Spoilers: It destroys productivity and teams.

~~~
zamalek
I really appreciate these links, they can seriously help out my team mates.
Thank you. I'd be genuinely grateful for any more.

------
chatwinra
I think this kind of writing is very important, because it's not just a trend
in start-ups. There's a similar badge of honour of 'working long hours' at
established companies.

I'm watching with interest experiments happening in nordic countries about how
actually working less could be beneficial, although as the article points out
it's too early to draw conclusive findings[1].

[1][http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34677949](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34677949)

~~~
mvdwoord
Yes, I can confirm that at after observing this behavior at many Big
companies. Right now, two floors down, there is a team working 10-14 hour days
including weekends for over 8 months. Needless to say that any if not all
decisions by now are just sleep deprived panic reactions to a mountain of
technical debt. Default reaction to every setback is to add more PMs, hours
etc. It is a gargantuan mess, 100s of millions of dollars worth of pure crap
really. Ultimately that cost is beared by society as a whole. Sometimes when I
walk past them I am quite confident humanity is doomed.

------
rectang
From 10 years ago:

[http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan06/onit.aspx](http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan06/onit.aspx)

    
    
        "Bill Gates has been quoted saying that his
        programmers can program for 72 hours straight,"
        Stickgold says. "And I say: yeah, but their product
        is Windows."
    

This topic will be with us forever.

------
nness
There has been a few occasions in the past where I've taken a sick day because
I got less than 4 hours sleep. I'd sent an email to whomever is my manager for
the project and go back to bed. Then there have been times where I just
powered through anyway, drank coffee and lots of water and took some
pseudoephedrine... and felt horrible for days afterwards.

Taking a sick-day is definitely preferred.

(this only works if you have a safety-net where employees are guaranteed more
than a week of leave for illness, compassionate or carers. Hard to imagine not
having that protection.)

~~~
swalsh
Once you have kids, that doesn't really work any more. The number of nights
where a screaming kid prevents you from sleeping is going to be larger than
the number of sick days you have :\

------
anonu
Freakonomics re-posted their "Econommics of Sleep" 2-part podcast. They look
at sleep and how sleep varies across different demographics. One interesting
point they made was that the "I don't need sleep" concept may have been
popularized in the 80s or 90s with celebrities and politicians making these
statements.

[http://freakonomics.com/podcast/economics-sleep-
part-1-freak...](http://freakonomics.com/podcast/economics-sleep-
part-1-freakonomics-radio-rebroadcast/)
[http://freakonomics.com/2015/07/09/the-economics-of-sleep-
pa...](http://freakonomics.com/2015/07/09/the-economics-of-sleep-part-1-full-
transcript/)

------
brador
There's working hard to make yourself richer, then there's working hard to
make someone else richer.

Know the difference and get to the former as soon as you can in your working
life.

~~~
cpncrunch
Even working for yourself, there is still a physiological limit. You might be
less prone to burnout working for yourself, but you still can't work 20 hour
days and expect to be productive.

------
fefifofu
Investment bankers wear it with a badge of honor, but who cares it's only
money... the scary one is when doctors brag about it! Especially the ones in
med school or just out of school. Peoples lives or quality of lives depend on
them making correct decisions.

With a small business, I understand why there can be lack of sleep - you don't
have the resources to hire more, but stuff has to get done. But with
IBs/Doctors, why can't the Managing Directors/Head of Depts just hire more,
but pay less (with shorter shifts)?

------
beat
You need to be able to reset to zero.

Think about it... as you tire, the quality of your work declines. That's
obvious. Taken far enough, you can become counterproductive, making so many
expensive mistakes that you'd have gotten more done by not working at all. But
rest resets our bodies and energy, right? But what if you don't get enough
rest to reset? Then you're starting the next day still carrying the debt of
yesterday's overwork. You're not as productive as you should be.

------
noipv4
Prolonged lack of sleep can also lead to brain diseases since our brain needs
sleep to clear out toxins. Especially true for people prone to epilepsy; they
need that sleep to avoid unwanted seizures.

------
dineshp2
A lot of what the post talks about is applicable to me.

There will always be lots of very interesting things to do and some things you
are forced to do, such as academic work or job related. I think at some point
you have to take a step back and take a look at what is it that you are
spending your life doing.

So recently I had made a list of all the things I wanted to learn and have a
working knowledge of: Ruby on Rails, Git and Mercurial, WebRTC, Go, Android
development. iOS development, Shell scripting, Python, R, machine learning,
server adminstration, Angular JS. Yes it sounds crazy probably because it is
crazy. Then I reached a point where I was pushing myself to learn new
technologies at an unsustainable pace. And the excuse was always "today is the
last day I'll need to get by on 3 hours of sleep". Then I finally got to the
point where I was completely exhausted and that forced me to take a step back
and learn what was absolutely important to me (for my startup) and stop trying
to learn/understand every single interesting language, framework or platform I
come across (thanks partly to my HN addiction).

Regarding the discussion about commuting to and from work, it's a real drain
on employees, employer and the environment as well (pollution). This might not
be applicable to most types of jobs, but living far away from cities and
working remotely are something worth exploring. I say this from first hand
experience, living in the country side, close to beautiful farms, flowing
rivers and with access to hills with trails, and working on my personal
projects and constantly in touch with the outside world through the internet,
I never feel like I am missing out much on city life. It's probably the best
of both worlds.

I think eventually, the preference of living in densely populated cities will
give way to leading a more peaceful life and yet continue doing creative work
in smaller, less dense establishments. Hopefully a reverse urbanisation.

------
H0n3sty
I've had success taking sleep even further. It seems that humans are
polyphasic sleepers, just like most other mammals. I've found that I get tired
after lunch, and benefit greatly from a 30-60 minute nap. The trick to getting
the most out of polyphasic sleep is having a bedroom conducive to quality
sleep - it should be cool, very dark, and very quiet. I use some opaque shades
(shift shades) to block the light from the windows, and either a white noise
machine or fan to ensure I'm relatively undisturbed by sounds outside my room.

~~~
cpncrunch
For me, just doing something else is usually enough to help me recharge (if
I'm not sleep deprived). Watching TV, going for a walk or bike ride, reading,
etc.

------
miles_matthias
The timing of this article is funny for me. I just got back from 5 days in
Cancun celebrating a special occasion with my wife. Working smart, not hard is
even more crucial at startups given how few resources you actually have to
make progress.

I wrote my own similar thoughts here: [https://softwarebymiles.com/startups-
vacation-c1c9d4ceb7ff#....](https://softwarebymiles.com/startups-
vacation-c1c9d4ceb7ff#.508bhclib)

------
welanes
I'd add, for those that have to depend on alarm clocks, please sleep earlier
or figure out your circadian rhythm ('biological clock') so you don't get
jolted out of deep sleep by a horrible loud noise each day.

I'm fortunate enough to wake up naturally however I hear foghorn ringtones
echoing from my housemates rooms most mornings and that's just a terrible way
to start your day.

Leads to a grogginess that's hard to shake.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Unfortunately, my natural circadian rhythm isn't set early enough to be able
to do any of this stuff if I take a job with 'normal' working hours. The
earliest I can manage to wake up consistently without an alarm is around 9am,
but it is much better if I'm waking at 10 or 11. I'm not a child - i'm in my
late 30's and have never 'grown out' of it. I can sleep the same amount of
hours, one earlier in the night (and waking earlier) and one delayed, and
always feel groggy waking up at 6 or 7am. Sometimes I simply don't hear
alarms, even with good sleeping habits, and early waking times increase my
chances of 'sleep drunkeness' and confused wakenings - sometimes I can barely
manage to take a shower unless I give myself 15-20 minutes after waking for my
mind to catch up.

I have generally tried to take jobs that work around this, but it hasn't
always been possible.

------
USNetizen
This reads very, very similar to a post I wrote (and also made it to the front
page of HN) a couple of years ago:

[http://blog.netizencorp.com/2014/03/30/working-
rediculously-...](http://blog.netizencorp.com/2014/03/30/working-rediculously-
long-hours-is-a-sign-that-something-is-wrong/)

------
thinkMOAR
Reads okay, but far from agreeing with this personal point of view. And i
think it lacks a lot of proof for some statements e.g.

'It works through matters you can’t address during the day.'

I'm curious how you assume this or what papers you read that makes you think
this.

Being tired can certainly be a badge of honour. It's where for example you
continued to get things DONE... and others simply say, tomorrow another day, i
don't care what happens after 5PM. It's called responsibility. Though this
obviously doesn't apply to everybody in the same way.

also please read:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_and_creativity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_and_creativity)

~~~
w0utert
>> _I 'm curious how you assume this or what papers you read that makes you
think this._

Purely anecdotal, but it happened to me zillions of times that I got
completely stuck at a problem at work, only to solve it within a few minutes
the next day. I've yet to come across a single developer who doesn't
acknowledge that kind of experience is very common. I see it regularly, the
longer coworkers trudge along trying to get something done after 10 hours of
work, the more problems and crap they produce.

I'm not sure why you need more 'proof' that working long hours kills
productivity and creativity, and rest (sleep) replenishes it. It seems
completely natural, both from experience and from an evolutionary perspective.

~~~
thinkMOAR
Well studies show that lack of sleep doesn't at all kill creativity (and that
could lead to productivity too).

Also negative experiences create a more clear memory of the event then a
positive one. So it's even possible you only remember the times you couldn't
come up with the idea that same day vs not having memories of the times you
did came up with solution that same day (because, you didn't have to wait till
the next day to fix it, which didn't create such a strong memory of that
annoying moment).

~~~
w0utert
And other studies show the opposite... Interestingly, the Wikipedia article
you linked yourself references multiple that show sleep deprivation is bad for
creativity and productivity. But like I said, I don't need research or other
'proof', the proof is my own experience, which is purely empirical but totally
consistent. Do you honestly believe being tired does not affect your
performance in mental tasks?

~~~
thinkMOAR
Well it lists 2 pro studies and 1 against, and it's only more then fair to
link both sides/proof. But i think this matter is very person specific; and
certainly not as black/white as told. Can't find any studies on this that have
been done on twins or triplets, for me that would have been more interesting
then subjective personal experience(s).

Some people perform better under hard deadlines and pressure, others can't
cope with pressure at all. I would not be surprised if same applies to people
performing with a lack of rest/sleep.

Though I never said or meant to give the idea that it doesn't have any effect,
nor if it always have the same affect. I merely wanted to point out there are
quite a few cases, situations where i think being tired does warrant a badge
of honour. And that going that extra mile, even when super tired, where others
give up is (very) honourable.

And calling it a day, and accepting you can't find a solution that working
day, is not very honourable (in my humble opinion). And yes there is more to
life then work, but that's not the point i try to make. :)

