
Amsterdam’s coffeeshops are closing - kristofferR
http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/01/economist-explains-man
======
Kaotique
Our Dutch softdrug policy was extraordinary 30 years ago but since then has
become completely gridlocked in politics.

Producing is illegal. Selling and using sort of legal.

This crazy policy has our police force waste all their time chasing a never
ending line of illegal production facilities and kept the production in the
hands of criminals.

We need a completely legalised product chain for softdrugs so it can be safely
produced and legally traded, bought and used.

~~~
CaptSpify
I often complain that the US has a mindset of "We're different, so what works
in other countries couldn't possibly work for us!". In this case, I'm finally
proud to say the opposite: It does work for us, so why couldn't it work for
them?

I've only been to Amsterdam once, and I don't pretend to even begin to
understand their culture or politics, but legalization here in the US has been
great. We've got a lot of people looking for reasons legalization has
destroyed our society, and they are coming up empty handed. Meanwhile, we're
making a ton of money on taxes. Is there anyone who knows why they
couldn't/shouldn't follow our example?

~~~
IMTDb
"We've got a lot of people looking for reasons legalization has destroyed our
society, and they are coming up empty handed".

Most people looking for reasons to oppose legalization are actually not saying
anything in the like of "This is going to destroy our society". If you want
reasons why legalization is a bad idea. Here goes one :

Legalization leads increased usage of pot amongst adults [0]. Combine this
with the fact that usage (not abuse) of cannabis leads to permanent damage to
the brain structure. Which negatively impact memory and cognitive abilities
[1]. No one here is saying that by legalizing marijuana our society is going
to the middle ages. I just don't think that it is wise to legalize one more
substance that has _known_ and _proven_ irreversible long-lasting effects on
cognitive abilites of people who are most likely going to live longer and
longer. Ageism of the general population is a challenge in itself. Ageism of a
population that is going to suffer from symptoms of partially altered brains
on top of the cognitive challenges naturally coming with age is even more
difficult.

[0] : [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/18/colorado-
mar...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/18/colorado-marijuana-
law-report-adult-usage-increases-not-kids)

[1] :
[http://www.pnas.org/content/111/47/16913.full](http://www.pnas.org/content/111/47/16913.full)

~~~
wonder_er
good point. So lets... throw people in jail?

I'd say prohibition has destroyed our society. The onus should be on
prohibitionists to defend the status quo.

~~~
IMTDb
I don't remember writing anything about jail. Legalisation and penalisation
are two very different issues.

~~~
icebraining
While I'm pro-legalization of cannabis, this is a fair point. Portugal's drug
policy is widely lauded, yet we only decriminalized consumption; even pot is
still illegal, and being caught selling is a crime.

------
falsedan
This article has… too many puns.

    
    
      > A report by the Bonger Instituut, a criminology think-tank named after a professor at the University of Amsterdam, is blunt
    
      > But as fewer coffeeshops are expected to cater to ever larger groups of stoners, that approach could leave them out of joint.

~~~
fapjacks
I hate this sort of ubiquitous, juvenile attitude about cannabis. It is
completely annoying.

~~~
forinti
Articles in The Economist are always full of puns.

------
peterwwillis
Mostly-non-toxic and non-habit-forming drugs that have the potential to change
your values are dangerous to the status quo, and therefore morally
reprehensible.

Alcohol and cigarettes, toxic and dangerous to users and bystanders, don't
change your values, and enable control of a population.

The only reason this continues its farcical conflict in modern societies is
the moral majority shout louder (and have more money) than potheads do.

~~~
bogomipz
Marijuana while generally not physically addictive can be habit-forming
though. How else do you explain stoners? I'm not bashing pot but I know people
who were different people before adopting "pot as a lifestyle." I'm drawing
the distinction here between recreational user and non-medicinal multiple
times a day daily user, with "stoner" being the latter.

~~~
peterwwillis
You're right, I misspoke, it is habit forming and non-addictive.

------
yellow_viper
I've been to Amsterdam 6 times over the past 10 years and every time it gets
harder to find a coffee shop. Pubs galore, obviously.

~~~
bogomipz
I was there recently. In the Canal District they looked very abundant still.

~~~
kristofferR
I was there a few days ago and it wasn't hard to find the coffeshops, but it's
was often really hard to find available seating.

Thankfully quite a lot of pubs that sell alcohol (but not weed)
allow/encourage people to bring and smoke their own joints (as long as they
don't contain tobacco, which is banned).

~~~
yellow_viper
The tobacco thing is only really enforced if you ask them if it's allowed. We
roll with tobacco and at the most they'll come ask you to hide your fag
packet/filters in case the police come in.

~~~
cr1895
And the weirdest thing is that the prerolled joints are 95% of the time rolled
with (a lot of) tobacco. And those are perfectly fine to sell and smoke in the
coffeeshop!

~~~
yellow_viper
Are they? I've only ever seen them mixed with that incense stuff.

~~~
cr1895
Huh, not as far as I know. There certainly are a lot that are sold with
tobacco. Maybe it depends on whether or not the coffeeshop has an isolated
smoking room, which means they could have tobacco inside.

------
mathattack
I visited Amsterdam almost 20 years ago. I'm very square. I struggled to find
a place to just buy a coffee!

Re: Comments about crime, things may have changed but I found it to be very
safe. Perhaps not as safe as Tokyo, but better than the South side of Chicago
or the tenderloin in SF.

~~~
jdmichal
I think Amsterdam is safe, in the sense that I don't feel there's much reason
to fear for your physical well-being. However, when I visited (mid 2000's),
the main train station's PA message loop included warnings about pickpockets.

~~~
mercer
Yeah, Amsterdam is very safe. But there has been an influx of pickpockets in
Amsterdam as well as many other cities. Even cities like Utrecht (close to
Amsterdam, but still a relatively small town) seem to have significantly more
beggars and homeless these days. I also noticed an increase of beggars in the
trains, leaving notes and packs of gum or whatnot at every table in the cabin.

It worries me slightly, not because I'm bothered by it but because I can
imagine it having significant effect on the rise of populism.

~~~
pmoriarty
Is it safe even for muslims?

~~~
mercer
Yes? I'm not sure what you're getting at...

------
rm_-rf_slash
This is what happens when you take two bad ideas - illegalization of
victimless vice and overregulation of industry - and make them sleep in the
same bed.

The coffeeshop model was a cute Dutch experiment in the beginning but it is
groaning with scale. The model has to be scrapped and re-thought, or it will
continue to be manipulated by "well-meaning" laws that shutter coffeeshops
becaue _they just happen_ to be located within the prohibited radius of
schools, even if such schools only teach hairdressing to adults.

Petty-internet-argument-deflection-shield: soft vices like marijuana are
victimless when safe and legal. Criminalization puts it in the hands of
criminals.

------
timwaagh
last time i checked there was still a street next to the Dam with ten or so of
these operations. They're not going away anytime soon. But you have to realise
pot stinks immensely. it is no fun to have a street smell of weed. So some
restrictions in the center of Amsterdam are in order, else the inner city will
be clouded in pot-smog.

~~~
kristofferR
Weird, I've never heard anyone describe the smell of weed as stinky. It's
strong and distinct, sure, but not bad smelling.

Anyway, you have it backwards. Because the coffeeshops are getting overcrowded
people are basically forced to smoke outside instead, which is obviously way
more smelly than people smoking inside coffeeshops (which can be odorless
outside if done properly).

~~~
SolaceQuantum
Weed has always smelled to me of skunk spray. By potheads it's been described
to me as "gods vagina" smell, which doesn't seem much better. If one had
sensitivity to scent, a cityscape reeking of weed would be fairly unpleasant.

~~~
dkersten
I think it's an "acquired taste" kind of thing: it doesn't smell nice... until
it does.

------
bkbridge
And that is why San Francisco and LA are going to EXPLODE with tourist.
Snapchat central, here we come. The Kids are running the show now. Amsterdam
was cool, but that's kind of last year.

LA is rocking! :-)

~~~
NamTaf
Question from someone who hasn't been to the US in 2 decades:

Is the MJ culture of the US where it's legalised (Colorado, LA, etc.) such
that you get coffeeshops like the Netherlands, or is it more a dispensery
style arrangement where you buy it for consumption in a private premises such
as your home, or both?

~~~
passivepinetree
Dispensary style. Public consumption is almost universally outlawed AFAIK.

------
tdburn
Do they serve coffee at these shops?

~~~
NamTaf
Yes. They cannot serve alcohol but otherwise they can serve snacks and other
non-alcoholic drinks. I enjoyed a decent espresso coffee and some juice.

Culturally, it's a place where people come to e.g.: play a game or three of
chess with some mates and just chill and socialise. Barring alcohol, the rest
of what you can purchase more or less aligns with what you'd expect people
would want in that sort of situation.

------
DoodleBuggy
People go to Colorado now instead?

------
ommunist
The Economist is up to turning Dutch economy hotter. Nice PR piece.

------
the_mitsuhiko
Honestly Amsterdam has in many ways become a place for British tourists being
super annoying. If closing coffeeshops is what it takes for the place to
become more enjoyable for the rest of us I'm not mad.

------
ideonexus
Fascinating from the perspective of someone who lives just outside of
Washington DC, where marijuana has essentially been legalized. My friends who
smoke tell me that, while it's illegal to sell weed, it's not illegal to give
it away. So there are now shops that sell old newspapers for $50 each, but you
get a free bag of high-grade weed along with it. It will be interesting to see
the effects this has on other crimes and illegal drug use in a few years of
study.

Having toured Amsterdam on a business trip, I was surprised that, even with
the easy access to weed and prostitution, taxi drivers would not take me to
certain historical sites in the city because they were too dangerous. The
"safe" section of the city was fairly small, with the rest of it overrun with
harder drugs and crime. With more American states legalizing and
decriminalizing, we'll soon get to compare with the Dutch experiment.

~~~
mvdwoord
Small side note, Amsterdam has it's issues here and there with crime, for
sure, but saying there is only a small "Safe" section is complete nonsense.
Most historical sites are completely safe, except maybe for pickpockets, like
any major tourist congregation.

The major problem in Amsterdam is the taxi drivers. They refuse to take you
somewhere because the distance is not enough for them to make some money on
(even though this practice is illegal). They are aggressive, do not know their
way around town and are general assholes. The market was deregulated, i.e.
everybody with a roof light is now a taxi, they even have fake signs from
"reputable" taxi companies.

TL;DR Amsterdam is safe Amsterdam Taxis are crazy bad.

~~~
emmelaich
Yes, Amsterdam is safe, especially within the ring.

Those pickpockets though - rapacious and bold. Much worse than Rome or Paris
for example.

~~~
cr1895
>Much worse than Rome or Paris for example.

Anecdotally, I think the opposite is true. There are far more noticeable
scammers and pickpockets in for example touristy areas of Paris, or even its
metros.

It's surprisingly hard for me to find concrete data on this, however. I'm
curious to know.

~~~
emmelaich
Scammers yes worse in Paris, but not pickpockets in my experience. Might have
been lucky.

TBH probably depends what time of the year and where you go.

What really annoys me is the acceptance of these cities with their existence.
Amsterdam trams will warn you whether there are pickpockets on board
(zakkenrollers). So they're easy to spot by the locals. But I've never seen
real policing. I have seen pickpockets do almost full body searches on
unsuspecting tourists on crowded trams.

And they get very menacing when they know that you know what they're up to.

~~~
cr1895
What can they do? It's obviously in the city's interest to squash the pick-
pocketing as much as possible, but it's not easy to police against. It's like
bike theft. Bikes get stolen all the time but there's little that can be done
to stop it.

I tend to avoid areas where they'd congregate and I don't especially look like
a tourist, so there's probably some confirmation bias at play.

~~~
pmoriarty
What about using surveillance cameras?

I presume that pickpockets aren't going around wearing masks, so it should be
possible to identify them from surveillance camera footage, no?

~~~
cr1895
Stations and even heavily trafficked parts of the RLD are already covered with
cameras, so they're clearly only so effective.

