

Don't Get Grinfucked By Your Users - jeffepp
http://fullcontact.com/2012/02/04/dont-get-grinfucked-by-your-users/

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branola
Grinfucked is an unnecessary and combative neologism. Users are not trying to
deceive anyone except to avoid looking stupid when navigating the latest UI
tricks that often only make sense to tech insiders. Also, this has been
happening for decades.

~~~
wam
I agree, the original article seemed more aimed at people who would
deliberately pretend they were on your side and then turn around and do the
opposite. Applying this combative term to include people who are trying to be
nice or succeed at using your app may lead to bad outcomes. I don't disagree
with others who have suggested that it may be "more efficient" to get the most
honest feedback possible, but all parties have to understand that going into
it.

All of this reminds me a little of Crocker's Rules on SL4, where participants
would explicitly invoke a special conversational mode to request brutal
honesty. That's an important distinction: It's okay to ask for brutal honesty,
but if you dish it out to someone without having been asked to, they may react
more to the brutality than the honesty, which will probably make the rest of
the exchange markedly _less_ efficient.

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itmag
Is it common in the US to be dishonestly nice to other people? Eg being
positive and friendly toward them while waiting to stab them in the back.

This theme is something I've picked up on earlier. Another example: some
Americans mentioned the lack of smiles from waiters in Europe as problematic,
thinking it was rude.

Personally, I prefer living in a culture where people are honest assholes and
only smile at you if they actually like you.

~~~
maukdaddy
Yes, absolutely.

I just moved to Sweden and immediately noticed the lack of "dishonestly
niceness" that I took for granted in the US. It's quite refreshing actually
and communication is more efficient.

Edit: In a US workplace you can't tell someone directly "that's wrong" or "I
don't like that". You have to politely get to the point in an indirect fashion
so as not to offend. It's an especially acute problem when giving that kind of
feedback to superiors or other people in power.

~~~
Aaronontheweb
Honest question: how does this difference in behavior impact dating in Sweden
vs. the US?

~~~
maukdaddy
I'm married, so unfortunately I don't know.

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VMG
random idea: tell the testers that they are testing a _competitors_ product,
so they don't have the feeling that their criticism is insulting to you

~~~
charliepark
What I've found to be helpful is to set them up to be critical: "Yeah, so,
this is an interface that my (cousin/roommate/________) designed, but I just
don't think it's quite ... there. I haven't been able to articulate _just_
what isn't right about it. I'd love to know your thoughts on it."

Set it up that way and they're primed to give critical feedback. If they can
help you articulate what's problematic about the interface, they end up being
the hero. You both win.

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shinratdr
Hacker News comment threads are notorious for this. A number of times I have
been the brutally honest one when I shouldn't have to be. People are very
unwilling to criticize the development efforts of others. That's OK to an
extent, but it's frustratingly unhelpful when you are trying to solicit
genuine feedback on something you plan to devote your life (or part of your
life) to.

Sometimes the worst people to get feedback from on an app is other developers.
They focus on the wrong things and overlook important stuff. They provide a
type of useful feedback, but their suggestions and your instinct can easily
run contrary to what a user expects and needs.

~~~
arnorhs
That's a good point and I agree.

That was my experience as well at first, but then I realized that there is a
certain pattern to the way americans communicate, and it goes something like
this:

\- First state the positive aspects that you like, or show appreciation for
the effort - even though those things have already been said by other people
in the thread. \- Then count what you find negative but don't use words such
as "sucks" and "not good" etc.. but use words such as "could be better" and
"can be iterated on" or "needs improvement". \- Then end the post by
encouragement.

This technique has also helped me IRL as I started working with other
americans in a startup in the bay area.

It takes some practice, imo, but it makes for some better communication with
americans.

Good luck! ;)

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jacalata
He could have learned this years ago if he'd looked at existing knowledge
arond user testing. Who knew, users tend not to give direct negative feedback?

~~~
Xorlev
I personally learned some of this in my UX course, but nothing substitutes for
experience. As is, the article is seems to be extolling the virtues of keeping
good feedback practices in mind (as well as highlighting a rather amusing
term, "grinfucked").

It's good though that you can leave negative feedback on a rather open
article. Keep up the Ivory Tower routine.

~~~
jacalata
If nothing substitutes for experience, why is it any use to write or share
this article?

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tlogan
When a user needs to pay or is paying for your product, in general, there is
no grinfucking.

~~~
AznHisoka
Yeah, and if it's a free product, you can usually tell who is your target user
by the feedback he/she is giving. The hardcore users who would love to use it
will be writing an essay filled with recommendations on how to improve it,
while the people who won't use it as much will just tell you it looks great.

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stretchwithme
I've found that many people that tell you what you want to hear change their
tune once their own money/work/happiness is involved.

Make compensation dependent on a products success and your employees will
start speaking a bit more clearer.

Instead of relying on a review process to rate employees, a company might let
people choose who they work with and on what projects.

If a significant portion of one's income can actually be influenced by an
employee's choices, they will tend to act on what they know rather than tell
you what you what to hear.

In other words, people should have a stake or actual stock in their projects,
not stock in the whole company.

And if its actual stock that can be traded within the company, the stock price
will tell you whether the project is going to succeed.

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martinkallstrom
Yeah yeah but how do you avoid getting grinfucked by yourself? That's what I
want to know.

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josscrowcroft
+1 for alerting me to the term "grinfucking" with references. Excellent post!

