
What to say when recruiters ask you to name the first number - leeny
http://blog.interviewing.io/exactly-what-to-say-when-recruiters-ask-you-to-name-the-first-number-and-in-other-hard-situations/
======
iamleppert
For startups or any companies who offer illiquid equity, the following is a
good tactic I’ve been using that never fails.

Simply tell them (at the offer stage):

“Make me two offers, one with a higher cash compensation and the other with
higher equity.”

Then, always take the position with higher cash to base your next
negotiations. If it’s good enough, you might even take it outright.

This is a trick that exploits the fact that most startup founders and
recruiters have an over-inflated “best case” view of how much their equity is
actually worth, so it works in your favor when they use it as a benchmark
against real money today. I’ve found they also fail to account how much it
would be worth for you vs. them. Considering the risk is high you won’t make
anything from those options even if you exercise them (& stay long enough),
the cash position is nearly always better. If the company becomes some run-
away success there will be opportunity to get more equity but getting a cash
raise in 6 months is infinitely harder I’ve found. Promotions at startups
often times have an additional equity award and by that time you’ll have more
information as to the chance of success or not.

Generally, based on my experience, it’s a good way to immediately get an extra
$10-20k, with little emotional effort and without the other side feeling as if
they were strong-armed, or that they had to give up something, since they
offered you the choice. (This is important because you don’t want to start
your position there viewed as an “expensive new toy”). They still feel
powerful and in control. They may even be happy you took the cash option and
let them “keep more” of their precious company. When I started doing this I
originally feared they would think I don’t have faith in them, but I’ve never
had someone feel insulted I took the cash option.

As an engineer I actually enjoy the negotiation process, it’s the best type of
problem: pure tactics.

~~~
1000units
I've always found it amusing how ham-fisted employers' tactics are when
dealing with talented engineers. They know you're not stupid, but they try to
swindle you anyway, knowing the only way you fall for it is if you have
serious self-esteem or assertiveness issues.

That's why I tell every honest engineer I know how much I make and how the
game works. It's disgusting.

~~~
dunpeal
Engineers are typically intelligent, but most of them know very little about
negotiation, especially straight out of college - which is a huge percentage
of new hires every year.

You may have graduated from MIT and done hard psets for 4 years, but the most
you ever negotiated was that $50 desk you bought on Craigslist.

> the only way you fall for it is if you have serious self-esteem or
> assertiveness issues.

Which young engineers, being often introverted and nerdy, do tend to have...

Recruiters are basically sales people, so they're on the other end of the
extroverted scale: extremely assertive, used to interact with, read, and
manipulate others. Is it any wonder they try to push engineers around?

------
klenwell
_So, basically, telling them something will only hurt you and never help you.
So don’t do it. Now, here’s exactly what to say when asked to name the first
number:

At this point, I don’t feel equipped to throw out a number because I’d like to
find out more about the opportunity first – right now, I simply don’t have the
data to be able to say something concrete. If you end up making me an offer, I
would be more than happy to iterate on it if needed and figure out something
that works. I also promise not to accept other offers until I have a chance to
discuss them with you._

And they answer, "Sorry, I cannot move forward without a number."

Stalemate.

I've been there and maybe I just don't enjoy awkward silences enough but my
strategy is to have two numbers ready:

1\. My Public Number: the inflated number I give out when pressed. It's
grounded in reality but vigorously optimistic. I'll often offer this up front
just to anchor the discussion. I make sure it's a number I will be more than
happy with, even it turns out that maybe it wasn't as much as they were
prepared to offer. If the other side finds it out of the question, I've saved
myself time and stress.

2\. My Walkaway Number: in the event the offer is lower, which it often is,
the number below which the offer gets rejected. I don't share this publicly.

These vary based on other factors of the offer. But I have them ready. And I
stick to the second number.

~~~
iamdave
I was asked once (and in a 15 year career, only once) in an interview "How
much do you need, and how much do you want?".

This question was almost devastating to my otherwise composed and in-the-
moment mindset because it was so shockingly frank and signaled a sense of
authenticity coming directly from the owner I had never seen before
interviewing for tech jobs. I gave them both. He in turn gave me something in
the middle, but much closer to the 'want' than I expected. What was more
unexpected was how quickly I gave him numbers-they weren't just random
numbers, it was a range that I had decided for myself would be the moonshot
salary and "thanks but I'll pass" salary floor.

It was definitely a first being asked such a critical question in such a
tactical way-I appreciated it for what it was.

That job lasted for four years until acquisition. We all walked away happy
with the accomplishments made, that owner and I are still great friends to
this day.

~~~
jnovek
The variation of this that I usually ask is, "What salary do you need to
maintain a comfortable cost of living and what do you consider a fair salary
given your experience and the job requirements?"

Depending on my flexibility in the hiring process I may give them a realistic
estimate of my budget as well.

I want to set the stage for the best information symmetry I can (given the
circumstances). This makes salary negotiations closer to a collaborative game
than a competitive one. I've even told candidates that their ask is
unrealistically low for their experience level.

Salary negotiation is the first moment in a trust-based relationship. To me
it's very odd that we start that trust-based relationship with a very high-
stakes competitive problem that relies heavily on information asymmetry.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
> What salary do you need to maintain a comfortable cost of living

That is a stupid question to ask. For anyone competent that I would ever want
to hire, the amount that they need (unless they have a bad gambling habit or
have made some terrible financial decisions) will be much less than the amount
that they would ever accept.

~~~
usaar333
Plenty of people, especially engineers with families, have lifestyle costs
that exceed what a startup will comp in cash. (Lifestyle is supported by
current job offering bonuses or liquid equity).

------
throwaway929394
Using a throwaway, because of my position.

I recently withdrew an offer to a VP candidate because he negotiated too much
(without being a jerk). He probably took advice from an article like this, and
he wanted a) higher pay b) more vacation time c) special dispensation for
items involving pay and time whose effect is even more pay.

He has been pursuing me to accept my original offer for the past 2 months and
I have been lukewarm because I got turned off.

Summary: all successful negotiation comes down to leverage and it all comes to
who has the leverage in a given situation. If you don't have the leverage, you
may want to think about how much you negotiate. I have been in situations when
I had no leverage at all, like my first job - where I had only one job offer,
due to a) irrelevant educational credentials b) tough economic times - and
thankfully, I had not read articles like this and that job led me to life
outcomes that today I am quite successful and wealthy.

One of my classmates negotiated hard for that same job, and while he got more
money, he left a bad taste in people and eventually got fired (I won't say he
got fired because he negotiated hard in the beginning but he started out with
a negative vibe, and I heard that from managers, and it went downhill from
there). In fact, later on, when I became successful, he approached me for a
job, and again negotiated hard with me. I passed him on.

So don't just blindly follow advice like this article. In fact, don't just
blindly follow any advice, including mine. Negotiate if your situation
permits, and know when your situation doesn't permit.

~~~
dunpeal
> One of my classmates negotiated hard for that same job, and while he got
> more money, he left a bad taste in people

Care to elaborate what "negotiating hard" means?

I've been on both sides of the hiring process multiple times. Never seen a
candidate get any serious downside from negotiating.

In fact, there were a couple of cases I wish they did! The worst was when you
find a good candidate, give them what seems like a competitive offer, then
they disappear, and you learn after a couple of months they preferred my
position, but got better pay elsewhere, where the difference is definitely
small enough that we would cover it. If only the candidate wasn't so polite!

Recently there's also a trend of recruiters encouraging candidates to
negotiate counter-offers, which in my eyes is efficient.

> He has been pursuing me to accept my original offer for the past 2 months
> and I have been lukewarm because I got turned off.

Clearly his mistake was negotiating with no leverage.

That said, I'll turn the table here: if I got an offer for a senior position,
and a polite attempt to negotiate was met with immediate rescission, I'd
assume the weren't quite so interested in the first place.

~~~
throwaway929394
>Care to elaborate what "negotiating hard" means?

He was one of those people "I should get the absolute maximum I could ever get
out of any situation." He did get a better offer, and so he was successful in
that. He also created much higher expectation of what he could do "he really
negotiates hard, I hope he is worth it" kind of vibe.

Fortunately for me, I went in creating reasonably modest expectation (let's
say I don't stand out) and I was able to vastly exceed those expectation while
he came with inflated expectations that he fell short. Not a great way to
start a career. And it went downhill from there for him.

People do make judgments about another person based on factors like this. In
my friend's case, I wasn't the one judging him as a tough negotiator (I was a
nobody), it was the manager who hired him.

My point is: articles like this should not be taken as the gospel and my own
advice is not gospel either. Evaluate your particular recruitment situation
(as a job seeker or as a recruiting manager) and act with judgement and common
sense.

~~~
dunpeal
> He was one of those people "I should get the absolute maximum I could ever
> get out of any situation."

The problem then seems to be coming across as greedy and/or difficult /
demanding person. So he's creating a concern over his personality, which goes
far beyond the mere act of negotiating.

I maintain that if you negotiate politely and realistically, no such
personality concerns should be raised. If a company still responds to that by
rescinding, then either they are unreasonable, or they were never too
interested, both of which are reasons for you to decline - especially the
latter.

> People do make judgments about another person based on factors like this.

Yes, exactly.

Also, I'm guessing since it was a junior position, your friend's "tough
negotiation" got him a few more thousands of dollars at best.

Negotiating hard over such a small amount will earn you the disdain of a
hiring manager, who will see it as pettiness and lack of vision concerning
future career.

> Evaluate your particular recruitment situation (as a job seeker or as a
> recruiting manager) and act with judgement and common sense.

Definitely! Still, imho, most candidates err on the side of not negotiating
enough, so articles like these are welcome.

Employers do have an advantage in negotiations: they know a lot more than the
candidate (certainly junior candidate), and have people whose full-time job is
to hire you on the best terms for them, while you are presumably an expert in
something like writing software or designing electric circuits, not contract
negotiations.

So I welcome articles like this, that should hopefully even the playing field
a bit.

------
cgriswald
> Will my offer be rescinded if I try to negotiate?

> So, if you’re talking to a super small company with one role that closes as
> soon as they find someone, yes, then they might rescind the offer.

This happened to me. I was perfectly polite, asked for a very modest increase
from their severely low offer (after listening to a speech about how they
couldn't get any good help), and would have even accepted the position if
their response was "non-negotiable". They not only rescinded the offer, but
they were ridiculous jerks about it.

> But, to be honest ... an early startup punishing a prospective employee for
> being entrepreneurial is a huge red flag to me.

That's exactly how I took it.

~~~
Jemaclus
This happened to me years ago when I was offered a position at EasyPost. I
tried to counter politely and modestly, and the CEO (I can't remember his
name) got mad at me, told me I should be grateful that I even got an offer,
and then rescinded the offer. It was a pretty big turnoff, and I wound up
being afraid of negotiating for another year or so. Nowadays, I realize that
kind of response means the CEO is a dick and I'm glad I didn't take that job.

~~~
ljm
I’m so curious about the state of mind it takes to acknowledge you need to
hire expertise, while simultaneously seeing your own need as being a favour to
someone else.

It feels resentful, I can’t imagine a bigger red flag than someone who resents
having to hire. They’re basically saying they would never even consider
approaching you if they had a choice.

You’ll never get a respectful deal out of that, never mind a healthy work
culture.

------
Denzel
I like a lot of the information in this article. But after going through a
gauntlet of 20+ interview pipelines with 3 offers coming in at the same time
and an additional 2 on the way, here's my advice... don't give the first
number, give the first _range_.

Say the market is showing you between $X-$Y.

Consider it a form of late-binding. You want to be dynamic. So make that range
both realistic and wide.

This is beneficial to you for a number of reasons. It will eliminate companies
that can't get there. Win. It doesn't commit you to a specific number. Win.
You don't have to ruin the rapport with an unnecessary game of chicken over
who says the first number. Win. And most importantly, you have a wide open
range to negotiate in when your offers come in. You can say... hey, I was
upfront about my range, and I really feel like I'm <here> in that range for
<these reasons>.

Using this strategy has worked beautifully for me.

~~~
infinite8s
The issue with a range is that you are by definition anchoring the minimum
that you will accept, so a savvy employer won't go much higher than that
(without mitigating circumstances like competing offers).

~~~
Denzel
You're exactly right, a range anchors the minimum. However, there's far more
bargaining chips on the table than just competing offers.

As a savvy negotiator you have to understand that every little piece of the
offer is a bargaining chip that causes movement within your range: bonuses,
equity, PTO, benefits, gym reimbursement, commute time, cost of living, hours,
etc. Everything is fungible.

The salary range is just one lever in an entire control room.

No one has to agree or use my negotiating method. It's simply something that
worked really well for me and allowed me to maintain more productive
discussions as I negotiated. Whereas a game of chicken leaves a sour taste in
both your mouth and theirs.

------
whack
I never understood this line everyone parrots about not giving the first
number. That tactic works best only in situations where both parties have no
clue what ballpark the other party has in mind. Which is definitely not the
situation when you're one of 1000 similarly qualified engineers applying for a
well-established job role.

In situations where both parties have a reasonable idea of what ballpark they
are playing in, it's far better to toss the first number, because you get to
set the baseline for the rest of the negotiation. Unless you're a very
experienced negotiator, that initial baseline plays an outsized role in where
the negotiation winds up finishing. For example, suppose both you and your
counterparty know that the negotiation is going to be within the 100-150k
ballpark. You tossing out 145k as the first number, will play much more to
your benefit than allowing the recruiter to toss out 105k as the first number.

Obviously this tactic only works if you're well aware of what ballpark you're
playing in. But that should be achievable by simply talking to your
classmates, or perusing the many salary aggregators and discussion forums
online. The only caveat I would add is to wait until all interviews are over
and you've received confirmation that the company wants to make you an offer.
At that point, no one is going to reject you for being too optimistic with
your initial offer. Worst case scenario: you're going to get a much lower
counteroffer. But at least you get the benefits associated with setting the
baseline.

[https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-
daily/w...](https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-daily/what-
is-anchoring-in-negotiation/)

~~~
dunpeal
It's theoretically optimal not to give the first number.

The employer doesn't know how much you're making now, and can't legally ask
(not in CA and NY anyway).

They have a theoretical top comp they're willing to offer for the position.
Once you give them your number, their top offer becomes min(your_goal,
their_top), which cannot be higher than their_top.

In simple terms, if you know your market value, and you tell them that number,
you will never know of or benefit from their willingness to pay above that
(often for good reason).

> For example, suppose both you and your counterparty know that the
> negotiation is going to be within the 100-150k ballpark. You tossing out
> 145k as the first number, will play much more to your benefit than allowing
> the recruiter to toss out 105k as the first number.

That would be the recruiter messing up. His initial goal is to get you in the
door, unless your expected pay ranges do not overlap. In this case, they do,
so saying a low number just means he's encouraging a potential fit to walk
away.

A recruiter in this situation will typically state a range, and definitely
won't just quote a number near the bottom of the range.

~~~
usaar333
> It's theoretically optimal not to give the first number.

Only if you ignore transaction costs of the interview process. Unless you feel
you can get their numbers before you start, it may be worth the time savings
to give up some potential future leverage.

~~~
dunpeal
Not being the first to quote a number just means that - letting them bring up
the first number.

It doesn't mean flying out for an onsite without knowing if they can match
your pay. That's obviously silly.

~~~
usaar333
Right, but employer normally won't offer a number pre interview. So the
dynamics are tricky to expect them to give you a number while not offering one
yourself. The article doesn't touch on how to pull that off. Have you been
successful getting this info without giving your details up?

------
xivzgrev
I recently went thru job search, and i found something that worked really well
when companies ask for your number.

Basically say that when you have been talking with recruiters you have heard a
wide range for your experience and they are better qualified to tell you what
your experience is worth TO THEM. Then ask what is their range for the
position?

And it's 100% true. Salary is completely driven by how much an employer values
your experience so they are more qualified. Also, I had more than a 40k delta
between the lowest numbers I heard vs highest. So why would I throw out a
number that has a high risk of being over / under what they value the position
at?

And make sure you ask up front. I had one company that said they had "great"
salaries, and it turned out to be a really low number. Thankfully I asked and
did not waste time with them.

Most times it is completely fine. Sometimes recruiters push back - just
acknowledge and repeat yourself. If they absolutely will not move forward
without a number then I would walk away.

Also sometimes recruiters will demur to share until later in the process. Up
to you if you want to chance it. But definitely hold them accountable. Ask
when in the process they can share, and hold them to that.

The one company that i interviewed with that was a stickler about all this is
Facebook. They would not share any range no matter how much I asked. That said
fortunately it's so big you can get a decent idea from Glassdoor.

------
Merkur
While waiting for the article to load i was thinking - was zero or one the
first number? Or was it two, because you need at least two to start counting?

Then i realized that i was offtopic in a kinda funny way

~~~
excalibur
Etymologically speaking, I feel like the first number was most likely "two".
The idea of quantifying things wouldn't be relevant unless you had multiple
items to bother counting.

------
scarface74
I cringed reading this article. It is so much in the bubble of Silicon Valley
startup culture it’s ridiculous.

Most developers don’t work for startups or one of the FAANG companies. Most
will be working standard corporate jobs where you get a salary, paid time off,
maybe a bonus, and somewhat likely a 401K match. That’s it. No great equity
stake, nothing.

Depending on your market, it’s quite easy with the right networking, research,
and talking to enough recruiters, you can find what your market range is.

Statistically, you’re probably not a special snowflake. Everyone thinks that
they are and deserve way above what the local market is paying. You probably
don’t.

The only time that I’ve been “underpaid” was when I either stayed at a company
too long, or purposely made less than I could because I was learning a new
technology or otherwise building my resume.

It’s not that difficult. Work with local recruiters, tell them what your
minimum well researched jump number is and make sure you are keeping your
skillset in line with the market. If I’m off by a few thousand, so be it. I’ll
become aware of it in two or three years when I’m looking again.

But from looking at salary surveys, talking to friends in the industry, and
talking to recruiters, I don’t think I am.

Yes I could make more if I wanted to be a manager (no desire) or a consultant
(don’t want the travel or the stress right now).

~~~
Iwan-Zotow
> FAANG

What is N for? Or you meant FAAMG ?

~~~
CapitalistCartr
Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Netflix, Google. Microsoft is as relevant as IBM.

~~~
PakG1
I thought everyone was getting a new impression of Microsoft under their new
CEO.

~~~
autotune
As a Linux Admin/consultant I’ve been impressed with some of the directions
they’ve been headed in recently. If they don’t butcher github in the next few
years I may consider hating on them slightly less.

------
phamilton
These days I usually start the conversation with a recruiter saying I'm
looking for total compensation above $300k.

Some don't respond, which is fine because it saves us both time.

Others will shoot back with something about equity. Then we can talk about
cash / equity split and there's plenty of room for negotiation there. I've
never felt like my $300k number limits my ability to negotiate (beyond putting
a halt to some discussions).

Where did I get $300k from? My peers at FAANG, my friends in recruiting,
recruiters who state salary bands upfront. Basically, I've done my market
research.

------
xiaosun
If you are in California, this is a completely moot point. The new comp law
(AB168) requires employers to disclose the pay range for a job upon request.

So if a recruiter asks you to name the first number, you should ask them for
the pay range and they are legally obligated to disclose the range.

Source:
[https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB168)

------
hamandcheese
Between me and two friends who are all early in our careers, we’ve had very
difficult times getting companies to move on salary. This was in SF, all
within in the last 6 months.

On the other hand, all three companies increased our starting bonus
substantially with hardly a fight.

For two of us the reasons were more or less “you’re already at the top of your
salary band” and for the last the reason was they pay all new grads the same
(only one of us is a new grad).

~~~
lostcolony
Amusingly, that just encourages you to change jobs more often. Amortize that
starting bonus over two years, basically.

~~~
shady-lady
Are starting bonuses a solely US/SF construct? Have never seen them in Europe.

~~~
lostcolony
I've gotten them elsewhere in the US, but can't speak to Europe. Usually they
have strings attached; basically "work for us for a year or pay us this back".
It's a good way to make the offer more attractive without it affecting the
following year's budget, while also achieving a bit of risk management.
Relocation usually stipulates the same thing; I know with a recent move and
job change of my own, between signing bonus and relo costs, I probably would
be looking at $50k if I walked away within a year, so yeah, they own me for
that time. However I knew what I was getting into and so far am very happy
there, so mutually beneficial.

------
joshgel
Can’t remember where I read it (and I’ve never tried it), but you could try
this: name a ridiculously high number as a joke. Laugh about it a little. Then
try to move on with them by saying something like “no seriously, what are you
offering?”

You’ve fulfilled their demand for a first number and pivoted back to them for
a response.

Anyone else think this might work?

~~~
tarr11
As a hiring manager, this kind of sarcasm would seem immature to me,
especially when we barely know each other.

~~~
coldtea
As a candidate, asking the candidate for their price to prey on their
information imbalance would seem jerky to me. Just be open and tell them what
you think you can pay them, and whether that's negotiable based on different
conditions.

------
dmourati
This is good advice about naming the first number if and only if you don't
have good market data. If you have good market data, and you should with sites
like levels.fyi, you should use that data to your advantage. Why? Well, first
off it signals value. If you name a number that is a bit of a stretch for the
prospective company, but still within a realm of reason, they start to wonder
if they have undervalued you. Second, it demonstrates that you have done your
homework. Third, it shows that you have negotiation skills and willingness to
use them.

This technique is referred to as anchoring.
[https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-
daily/w...](https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-daily/what-
is-anchoring-in-negotiation/)

Use anchoring to take control of the negotiation and to maximize your
compensation.

------
komali2
On reverse car salesman - use this on the company you know for sure you want.
Likely the company you know for sure you want will remain that company even
within a 10k range price difference (speaking to software engineers here).
That being said, you can start throwing all sorts of weird shit on the table,
if you've already negotiated your salary up. PTO is usually the first thing
that comes to mind, but I've also seen "guaranteed right to wear flip flops in
the office, forever, no matter what office dress code becomes" put in a very
picky qa engineer's contract (which is funny because he showed up to his
onsite in a suit and tie... And I haven't seen him in anything but flip flops
since). There's a hardware laboratory here so I got "access to laboratory" put
in my contract, and since then I've learned to solder by just hanging around
in there. Remote work stuff comes to mind, maybe some sort of time-bound
access to powerful servers, just see what you can think of.

Reason being, if the company has to give just one more thing to nab you,
they'll feel like they really worked hard to secure the perfect candidate,
there'll be no doubt in their mind, the recruiter/decision maker will always
tell the story about how you were looking at other offers "but we finally
secured her by putting the Foosball table right into her contract." And on the
other side of it, you get that warm fuzzy feeling that you negotiated all
there was to negotiate.

~~~
oldManRiver
I negotiated flex time at my current job, as I have for every job since 1999.

After 6 weeks they told me I couldn't have flex time anymore but wouldn't give
me the pay cut I took to get it. So now I leave early every day at different
times and "work" from home once a week.

I haven't done any real work for them in over a year and a half because of the
flex time fiasco. I keep waiting for them to fire me but I'm friends with my
boss so he's protecting my job, which is hilarious, but that's how shitty this
company is.

------
bb88
With recruiters there's simply one rule to go by: Either you're feeling the
pain, or they are.

If there's a trick in this, it's to make the recruiter feel just enough pain
that they hate to say no, because they lose their commission.

So when you're asked salary first, go ahead and answer it and highball it.
Either one of three things will happen:

1\. They will tell you it's fine (and it might be), in which case, you didn't
ask high enough.

2\. They will say you're way too high and hang up.

3\. They will reveal what their highest salary is for the position (or
something close to that).

Number 3 is what you're looking for. Because then you can negotiate off your
high ball answer and look like you're being reasonable, if they refuse to come
up, then it's time to hang up the phone.

------
hfdgiutdryg
I don't like how this starts out. Ratcheting up the pressure on how critical
it is for you to negotiate from the get-go in your career, as if it's going to
somehow compound down the road.

That's _only_ true if you're planning to stay at the same company forever. You
can ask for whatever you want in your next interview. It's nobody's business
how much you made in the past.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't negotiate, I'm saying it's okay if you
didn't.

~~~
freedomben
> _You can ask for whatever you want in your next interview. It 's nobody's
> business how much you made in the past._

That's only true in California. For the rest of us, it's perfectly normal to
be asked how much we currently make. It may not happen at the beginning, but
after your first counter-offer, they will almost always ask where you're at
now, and then say something like, "that's quite an increase from where you're
currently at. How do you justify that?"

~~~
paulcole
Just lie when asked.

It’s not a crime to lie in a job interview. In fact, it’s one of the best
tools jobseekers have at their disposal. As long as you can afford to not get
the job, swing for the fensces.

~~~
mertd
Absolutely do not lie unless you want the offer rescinded. A lot of companies
will ask for exactly that after the offer is accepted and it is a perfectly
reasonable thing to do.

~~~
stale2002
This basically never happens.

There is no way for your employer to verify this information.

And even if they DID, do this, 6 months later, if they fire you then they just
lost that 3 months of training time that they spent on you.

Sure, they might do it anyway if they are spiteful and idiotic. But most of
the time Ive learned that businesses don't like wasting money.

And the immoral people in this situation is the COMPANY, for engaging in this
shady negotiation practice. They deserve anything that happens to them if they
engage in this behavior.

------
flatline
> as you get more senior, more of your comp comes from equity

Maybe in SV? Or if you buy options or discounted shares in a publicly traded
company you work for? But I don’t feel like this is the norm nowadays.

~~~
barbegal
So you're saying: as you get more senior, less of your comp comes from equity?

~~~
phkahler
Equity isn't a thing at most companies.

~~~
greglindahl
Most companies in the entire world, or most companies that we talk about here
on HN?

~~~
GordonS
Most companies outside of the Bay area.

~~~
greglindahl
Most companies outside and inside the Bay Area are things like individual law
practices and barber shops. I'm a bit surprised to find such companies a topic
of conversation on HN.

------
bobbytherobot
I've gotten bolder and last time job hunting my answer the first time the
recruiter asked for my range: "if you offer $300k right now, I'll take the job
today."

~~~
yanslookup
The crazy thing is, in this current market, you might actually be low balling
yourself at 300k...

------
pmiller2
Couple of things I’m wondering about....

What constitutes an exploding offer? Is it a 3 day deadline? 1 week? 2 weeks?
3? Personally, anything less than 2 weeks seems rushed to be making a decision
that could cost me $10K or more over the next year. I feel like 3 weeks should
be enough to wrap up any open recruitment processes, and 6 weeks is downright
absurd, but I don’t have a good sense of the issue overall.

Also, if merely mentioning having an on-site can get me a $5k increase, why
not just bluff?

~~~
dsr_
Everybody has their own range. That said, when a company demands an answer by
the end of the day or the end of the next day, or if you have mentioned you
have another interview coming up and they set it before then, it's an
exploding offer and you should reject it.

It's entirely reasonable for a company that really needs _your skills now_
because they don't have anyone else who can do that work to ask for an answer
in a week. You should consider negotiating a little harder.

For any company that already has several people working in the same position,
or is expecting you to move any significant distance, you should expect them
not to be in a huge hurry.

------
mnm1
Maybe this advice is good when applying to the big four, but otherwise it's a
wonderful way to waste one's own time. From having conducted hundreds of in
person interviews and probably thousands of calls with recruiters or phone
interviews, I find that figuring out the band a company is willing to pay is
fairly easy. Also, it's not a wide band even at senior levels. In fact, the
acceptable range is usually quite narrow. I save a ton of time by not
interviewing with companies who can't even pay the low end of the range I'm
looking for. This is the situation most of the time, in fact. I've done
interviews and take home assignments only to find out the company's range and
my range don't overlap at all. That's just stupid and a waste of time. These
days, I discuss salary first if it comes up and definitely before dedicating
any major amount of time to an interview. Is there a chance that I'm leaving
money on the table? Maybe a very tiny one. Usually, I'm just saving myself
hours or days of interviewing for a job I will never take. For almost all
jobs, I find this advice to be wrong and a waste of time.

------
Merkur
While Waiting until the article has loaded, i tried to figure out if Zero or
One came first ... doh

------
ggm
I'm probably too late, and I am probably too far outside the core interest
group (the US developer market) for this one. but anyway: What would you say,
if I hypothesized a fairly narrow but structural pay grade for years of
experience, qualifications and perhaps a more variable quality for domain
specific knowledge or above-competent?

Seriously: if the entire industry moved to a different model, would the fact
_some_ of us were significantly worse off, but most of us on average were
better off be acceptable?

Thats basically what Unions, and Unionized negotiating achieves. If (like me)
you worked in the tertiary education sector as a researcher, this is how it
worked.

Could any of you people go there? If not, why not?

~~~
imh
I would be skeptical, but open, so long as it is frequently renegotiated. Dev
salaries have gone up incredibly over time, and new technologies come in all
the time. After new technologies/niches come in, their value changes over
time. A specialist in neural networks pre-2010 vs post-2012 would have quite
different market rates. It wouldn't be enough that most of us on average are
better off today. It would be important that most of us on average will be
better off today and in 15 years, which seems to require frequent
renegotiation in a fast moving sector like this.

------
PopeDotNinja
One can also do this... When asked what your compensation requirements are,
simply say you need to research what realistic salaries are in the current
market before answering the question. If pressed for an answer, just say doing
that research is important to you, and that if they really need an answer
before continuing, you'll come find them when you have an answer. This allows
you to plainly state your preference, respect their process, and it gives you
time to come up with a number you'd actually want. The recruiter may just back
off and let you proceed without asking for a number until much later in the
process.

------
spitfire
The response to the exploding offer is incorrect.

The correct response is "No thank you." For extra style points tack on "But it
was great talking with you, I'll be sure to tell my colleagues about you."

------
privateSFacct
On the hiring side here.

Who hires / works like this?

"I'll be happy to iterate on what I need when I get an offer"!! I'd move along
politely at this point. Reality is, our best hires have approached us even
when no job posted - but know what we do. They don't seem to care about salary
- and I'm eager to give big raises fast to keep them - 15-20%+ at 6 mo, 15-20%
at 12 months + bonus. The market is tight at this point and managers want to
keep staff.

Thankfully not doing tech hires, if this article is the way these guys work -
I'm grateful not to have to hire in that space.

My life is more boring. screening resumes, only 40% of which are minimally
qualified. Quick phone screens after two of us go through the stack (we use an
online tool to manage this). What are salary expectation is a question in that
first call. I'm happy to share ranges with folks as well. Saves us all time to
chat this out early - and I find I enjoy working with people who can talk
about money in a rational manner.

~~~
sametmax
How can you talk about salary if you don't know the job ? I certainly won't
negociate the same money for a start up, a big co, a remote work, a borring
one, one with hard challenges, one with long hours, one with benefits,
location, travelling, fancy clients, bonuses, shared values, etc.

After a first call, I won't know remotly what I need to know what to negociate
for, and giving any price is most probably setting wrong expectations that
will be very hard to come back from later.

It seems lose-lose to me.

Besides, i have several offers at the same time. I put my recruiters in
competition.

------
austincheney
If it is a contract to hire position let the recruiter pick the number for
you, because their commission is a percentage of that number and they know the
client's (hiring company) target range and exceptional range. You will want to
max out that contractor rate, because that rate is a factor in your
conversation negotiation.

------
hippich
Another aspect which is often missed during thinking about own number, or
discussing the offer with a recruiter is that even if one's skillset is worth
X, it is not always the case company will need the whole set of skills
applicant posses. Hence their market price for that position might be lower
than what an applicant is looking for, yet still fair. This kind of mismatch
of honest numbers is the case where things will just not work out. One thing
is being underpaid, the totally different thing is doing something too simple
for one.

When I was searching for a job, I used to ask straight their salary range,
since I always assumed business is pricing job fairly and that number would
tell me what kind of skillset their business need. (And no, one's extra skills
are not gonna give an edge to business, and usually these extras worth nothing
to the business, hence lower offer)

------
DoofusOfDeath
The best way I've found to avoid this problem is to have multiple offers on
the table at the same time. And to be sure the employers are aware they have
competition.

It seems to create the same dynamics as a blind-bid procurement process, which
works in your favor.

------
farazbabar
As someone trying to build a brand new team, I am happy to pay people whatever
they think they are worth. I wonder if there is a way to do this without
offending the engineers I am trying to attract - I mean, if they are not to
answer the question how much do you want, how do I pay them what they want? I
am not at all worried about over-paying because any engineers that don't meet
the performance bar I set won't last long enough for it to matter.

~~~
mmt
You say you're not worried about over-paying, but you mention the opinion/want
of the engineer twice.

If you're truly not worried, just figure out the _most_ generous compensation
on the market (e.g. consultant rates, what FAANG pays) for a comparable
engineer and exceed it.

Alternatively, or additionally, be generous with equity and/or profit-sharing.
Even with a base salary that's only slightly above market, an engineer is
unlikely to feel cheated/exploited if they're also being compensated with a
significant portion of the value the company realizes from them. (In the
typical company, where all employees' combined share is 10%, it's _not_
significant).

------
ajkjk
I too spent a lot of my life being wrong about what the word 'diatribe' means.
This is not nearly angry enough to count as a diatribe.

------
DonHopkins
If you tell them how much you previously made, and it was a lot, is there a
good way to prove you're telling the truth?

Or should you not want to work for them if they don't believe you (and they
shouldn't hire you if they don't believe you)?

Is it acceptable to offer a copy of previous job offers or contracts to
document salary history, sign-up bonuses and relocation plans, or would that
be weird?

------
watertom
Unless it's a really small company the job has been graded, which means that
they already know the title and level of the job and the salary range that has
been approved.

When they ask for the number I always respond by saying, "Please tell me the
approved salary range for the position."

If they won't tell you the salary range it's probably not a company worth
working at.

~~~
kochikame
These rules can always be broken, however.

Money can always be found with the right person inside saying "I want this
person on the team ASAP"

------
dboreham
“My wife is a compensation consultant specializing in tech jobs, so I’ll ask
her to run an analysis on your open position”.

------
andrewstuart
Not saying up front what you are looking for is completely wrong and really
bad advice.

I've negotiated thousands of salary deals and it never works like that.

Consider this simple scenario - employer is looking for a mid level developer,
wanting to pay around $80K. You, however, know that you would never accept a
role for less than what you got paid in your last job, which is $110K.

So how is this going to play out? 3 interviews, everyone invests their time
and effort and codes coding tests and assessments and at the end of it they
say "we've got $80K in mind for you", and you are outraged.

The correct advice when asked your salary target is to know the range you are
after. It should be neither too high, nor too low. Ask yourself the question -
"what is the salary I would feel happy with to stay in this job for the long
term?" \- that number is the bottom of the range you present. You can add $5K
to $10K to that range to give yourself some negotiating upside.

So your answer in the above example might be "I'd like $110K to $120K
depending on the responsibilities of the role".

That's the right way to do it. It's ridiculous to go into a recruiting process
hoping to negotiate at the final stage - that would waste everyone's time.

~~~
imh
> You can add $5K to $10K to that range to give yourself some negotiating
> upside.

This probably makes more sense as a percentage. If you're making 80, adding
5-10k for negotiating makes sense. It you're making 120, adding 10-20k
probably makes more sense. I always go with the top range of what I think is
reasonable and add 10-20% or so.

Basically the very upper limit of reasonable. Yeah it's silly, but everyone's
in on it and since I started doing that, I've been pleasantly surprised quite
a lot.

------
itronitron
I realized recently that companies that have asked me upfront what my salary
expectations are have never made me an offer of employment (regardless of
whether and how I answered that question.) As a result I don't give them a
number and I also expect that to be our last conversation.

------
commenter1
Give a number, if they don't accept it, leave. If I want to play games, I go
to an arcade.

------
ordinaryperson
This would be helpful if it were 1994 and there was lots of what economists
call asymmetric information, but now you can price-check a company's offer in
seconds.

Besides, companies can also easily see what the going rate is and normalize
their budgets accordingly. I recently went through the job search process and
almost all companies offered similar rates.

If you're north of 100K (and I assume most experienced software engineers are)
realistically 10-20K more will not make a significant impact on your quality
of life. We're talking an extra $500-1K a month. Nice, but doesn't exactly
catapult you into the 1%.

As long as your salary is in a competitive range it's more important to focus
on finding the right fit of industry, company, people and projects. Wouldn't
over-weight salary negotiations, especially in a day where both employers and
job-seekers can quickly ascertain market rates.

------
tfolbrecht
Something not often considered is playing on an awkward silence between the
tit-for-tat. If you let things stick in the air a bit longer sometimes
signaling from the other party can help you find that sweet spot.

------
geoka9
How about "From my research and experience, I believe that I can get $X" (name
your most optimistic realistic expectation), "but I'm willing to negotiate if
that number is a problem."

~~~
maxxxxx
Don't follow up immediately with the phrase "I am willing to negotiate". It
signals lack of confidence.

~~~
geoka9
Then how about "... is a problem for you guys?" Their response may be "oh, not
at all" (being the highly successful company they are selling you on).

~~~
maxxxxx
Name your number and shut up. They will tell you if it's a problem.

------
justonepost
I have no problem giving a number, but I know how much I'm worth. I really
don't want to get paid more or less.

------
snow_mac
I always ask for $5 or $10 more an hour then I'm currently making. That works
for me to get more money each time.

------
sosilkj
any good links to understand how to negotiate stock/RSUs (or how all that
stuff even works)?

------
Iwan-Zotow
aleph null

------
mherdeg
OK, I know this doesn't contribute to the discussion and I apologize in
advance.

But based on this title I thought this would be a short blog post about
recruiters using phone-screen questions to probe whether a candidate uses
zero-indexed or one-indexed counting.

~~~
jtbayly
Yes, I was profoundly disturbed at the thought of this being an elimination
question.

