
WhatsApp – Opting out of new terms doesn’t stop Facebook taking information - breitling
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/whatsapp-data-sharing-with-facebook-opting-out-of-new-terms-doesnt-actually-stop-facebook-taking-a7213221.html
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madeofpalk
Sidetone, but I find it a bit rich that The Independent is going all high and
mighty about privacy and sharing data, when they have the most atrocious ad
and tracking experience I've seen on a media site in a long time.

Ghostly found 40 trackers
[http://imgur.com/a/miilB](http://imgur.com/a/miilB), the ads are extremely
obnoxious. There's literally ads on top of ads sliding down my screen, pushing
the content around.
[https://gfycat.com/InsecureHealthyAurochs](https://gfycat.com/InsecureHealthyAurochs)

Those in glass houses...

~~~
proactivesvcs
Goodness gracious, I hadn't realised adverts had gotten that bad again. You'd
think with the ever-increasing backlash against web site advertisement they'd
balk at such behaviour on their web site.

~~~
bad_user
In the past I was against ad-blockers, thinking that websites need a business
model to survive and that subscriptions can't work for everyone. But this has
turned into a serious assault on privacy.

So nowadays I have uBlock Origin, Privacy Badger, the "Tracking Protection" in
Firefox enabled by default and I'm seriously considering NoScript, too bad it
wasn't available for Firefox Android last time I checked.

~~~
Yxogenium
For your information you can get the Firefox for Android NoScript porting with
the cheeky (but somewhat relevant) name NoScript Anywhere++ (NSA++) here:
[https://noscript.net/nsa/](https://noscript.net/nsa/) It's quite
experimental, the UI isn't great if you have a small phone but it works.

------
bikamonki
It's too late! Have you seen another search engine make a dent in Google's
market share? How about another OS challenging Windows on a PC? Another social
network?

It is rather obvious that: if the main purpose of a business is to grow
revenue/market share, if successful, it will eventually grow to close to 100%
market share.

This situation, commonly known as a monopoly, cannot be reversed by free
market competition and government needs to step in, like the US government did
by splitting the telcos.

I can only guess (I am no expert) the challenge here is that government faces
a legal void since these services are _free_ as in no money was paid to use
them. Owners of these services are on the ad business and there is plenty of
competition there.

Government has no interest in protecting our privacy either, on the contrary,
they want in!

We're left with two options: be a hermit and stop using FB and Whatsapp, or
hack the system: install ad blockers + develop unofficial APIs to interact
with these services on your own terms.

~~~
stephenr
> It is rather obvious that: if the main purpose of a business is to grow
> revenue/market share, if successful, it will eventually grow to close to
> 100% market share.

The main purpose of a business is to generate profit, not just revenue.

Apple is pretty clear evidence that you don't need a massive market share to
be highly profitable.

> be a hermit and stop using FB and WhatsApp

Is that seriously how you see this? How exactly do you think people lived 10+
years ago, before either of those things existed?

I haven't had a Facebook account for many years and I've never had a WhatsApp
account. Does that make me a hermit? Should I inform my wife and son? Will my
friends already be aware of my hermit status, or will you inform them for me,
because obviously without Facebook or WhatsApp I have no possible way to
communicate with them.

~~~
themartorana
Your anecdotal experience does not change the reality of the audience that
uses social networking and messaging and the dominant players in those
markets. If you decided you wanted to join in your choices would be limited,
and these two services dominate their respective markets.

~~~
stephenr
The ability to have friends and a family without the use of Facebook and
WhatsApp is "anecdotal evidence"?

Are you fucking kidding me?

~~~
sirkneeland
well, in terms of anecdotal evidence, I live and work abroad and tools like
Facebook and WhatsApp make it possible to communicate with my friends and
family back home at a cost of next to nothing.

A decade ago, international phone calls and SMS would have cost me an arm and
a leg, and there's really no equivalent for Facebook which lets me keep in
touch with the lives of people I care about on the other side of the world.

Yes, there was email but that doesn't really substitute for the short low-
latency, ubiquitous worldwide communication of WhatsApp (and it certainly
didn't 10 years ago when it was largely tethered to a desk) nor the ability to
keep up with my friends unsolicited that is Facebook (what am I supposed to
do, ask all of my friends to write me an email of what they're doing once a
week?)

Are global migrant workers an edge case? perhaps. But while forfeiting FB and
WhatsApp wouldn't make me a hermit, it would certainly make communications
with my friends and family back home to be lesser in number and richness.

~~~
stephenr
I moved away from the state I grew up in at age 23. 10 years and 3 states and
a different country later, I still keep in touch with the people who are
actual friends.

I didn't say you shouldn't or can't use Facebook. I said it's ridiculous to
equate a lack of Facebook with a hermit lifestyle, even for geographically
distant people.

There are literally dozens of ways to keep in contact using Internet based
communication channels. If you choose to use those that are controlled by a
privacy whoring twat of a company, that's your business.

------
tszming
Why we don't sell ads (2012) [https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-
ads](https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-ads)?

~~~
nly
What did we really expect? That they were going to support a 1 billion user
app as a public good? The writing was on the wall when they dropped the 79
pence per year fee

~~~
AlexandrB
I think that it's a good reminder that all the sentiment in the world is
meaningless in the face of changing ownership and/or business realities. See
also Instapaper + Pinterest.

Edit - Also a reminder to founders: If you want your vision for the company to
survive, _don 't sell it_!

~~~
bad_user
Founders that sell are very much aware of this fact. If they're selling it's
either because they have no choice, or because they don't believe in said
vision. In the end, unless you have a strong contract that protects users with
the threat of a fork, like being based on a distributed open protocol, or an
open source license, it's all just bullshit and marketing, whereas aligning
with your users interests is only temporary.

I also think there's an inherent lesson for users here, more than it is for
founders: don't trust startups, most of them won't survive and won't have the
decency to die either, preferring instead to sell your account and data to the
highest bidder.

~~~
Freak_NL
> If they're selling it's either because they have no choice, or because they
> don't believe in said vision.

Or just because the price is right. Some may believe that they can do
something even greater with the money, and some simply realize that a lot of
money is the more attractive option for them. The latter may even have faith
that the purchaser will keep the vision alive (and most will be disappointed
in that respect).

------
mtgx
So where is the FCC and its "20 year monitoring of Facebook's privacy
policies" now?

Or was that just lip service to appease the public that Facebook is doing
nothing wrong, because after all, _it 's being watched_ by the FCC?

[https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-
releases/2011/11/faceb...](https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-
releases/2011/11/facebook-settles-ftc-charges-it-deceived-consumers-failing-
keep)

By the way, even if what Facebook is doing now doesn't violate that settlement
with the FCC, I'm 100% certain Whatsapp was already sharing phone contacts
with Facebook many months _before_ this policy change. So at least that
should've violated the settlement. It's just that they didn't get caught doing
it before any official noticed.

The reason I say I'm confident they were doing that is because I barely use
Facebook at all on the PC, I never installed Facebook's app on my phone, and
yet Facebook started suggesting me people I was _talking to_ on Whatsapp to
add as friends. And I've seen quite a few other people mention similar
situations on the web as well.

Why is the FCC sleeping on the job?

------
bad_user
The irony is that I started to use WhatsApp only 2-3 months ago after learning
they are doing end to end encryption. Oh well, guess it's time to uninstall
it.

~~~
whamlastxmas
I made the move from Telegram to WhatsApp specifically because WhatsApp made
end-to-end encryption the default. With Telegram you have to specify a
conversation to be encrypted, and there's also controversy over the closed
nature of the encryption used. I guess I'll try Signal this time? Don't know
anything about it.

~~~
tao_oat
Signal is solid, though a few privacy advocates criticize the dependence on
Google Play Services on Android phones. I also get the impression that
development has slowed, with the developers (Open Whisper Systems) focusing on
implementing the Signal Protocol in other clients (but correct me if I'm
wrong).

There's also the newly open-sourced Wire - it has the same dependence on
Google, but it supports video calling and some might prefer their UI.

~~~
Siimteller
Wire offers APK download from wire.com/download and working on making
notifications work without Google too.

------
FabHK
Could everyone just please install Signal and Wire, for open-source, end-to-
end encrypted communication?

~~~
Freak_NL
Does Signal still require your mobile number as mandatory identifier? If
privacy is what matters that is a deal breaker.

Last I looked it couldn't be used with third party clients either, and any
desktop client requires tethering to an Android or IOS smartphone.

Wire looks a bit more sensible, but still works exclusively on their servers.

~~~
edent
Yes and Yes. Signal also doesn't support encrypted backup, so if you change
devices you have to export to plaintext.

------
77yy77yy
Whatsup was sharing info with Facebook months ago. I remember seeing a
Watchapp contact as a friend recommendation on my Facebook profile. Other than
that Whatsapp contact, we have nothing in common, no other way Facebook could
have picked it up.

~~~
ihowlatthemoon
If you've granted contacts permission to the Facebook app, it could've
identified using the phone number.

~~~
goombastic
This has been my experience as well. In my case Ive never ever installed
Facebook on my phone. It has to be whatsapp leaking/sharing the contacts list.

~~~
evgen
Or that contact allowing FB to scan their contact list. Remember, there are
two endpoints here and if you did not allow it then is is more likely the
other party did.

------
goombastic
Facebook swiped whatsapp data a year or two ago. I've never ever installed FB
on my mobile and yet it suggests whatsapp contacts as friends. It's just such
a brazen move that everyone assumes it is legal.

~~~
what_ever
Not saying that's not possible but it's a two way connection. May be your
connections installed Facebook on their phone and FB contact permission and
they got your name from there. Your phone number didn't come into picture.

------
patrickaljord
I don't get the problem. If you don't trust them why don't you just stop using
them? It's not like it's a government spying program you're being forced into
and it's not like there aren't a gazillions chat apps alternatives. Also the
intersection of people who use whatsapp and have no Facebook already on their
phone with access to contacts must be pretty small so not sure this change is
as controversial as claimed in this article.

~~~
IkmoIkmo
Really? All my friends, my boss, the shop I just bought a new suit at, my
municipality, they're all on whatsapp nowadays. It's a pretty big deal to just
cut it out of my life. It's a platform that's approaching something like 'have
an email address' or 'have a phone' in practical terms.

There are workarounds but they're not as painless as simply deciding to 'use
an alternative chat alternative'. It's like saying you don't like English?
Well try esperanto and good luck functioning in the US. I've given some
extremely exaggerated examples, particularly this last one haha, but I've
found reliance on Whatsapp to be substantial and on the rise.

I do agree by the way that this isn't that big a deal. I'm completely fine to
continue using them, but if I wasn't the proposed 'just stop using them,
there's chat alternatives' really doesn't fly. It'd be really shitty.

~~~
ffggvv
I don't use neither facebook nor whatsapp and I live perfectly fine. It's not
like you stop breathing.

In my experience telling people that you prefer a different medium from
whatsapp is not a big deal.

~~~
tambourine_man
I also have neither, but it's extremely hard.

Some people will understand why you don't have Facebook, but not having
WhatsApp is downright mad. Specially if you work with technology.

The only people I know that don't have it are luddites or very old people, and
even they are far and few between.

~~~
AlexandrB
> The only people I know that don't have it are luddites or very old people,
> and even they are far and few between.

I don't have it and no one I interact with at work had asked for my WhatsApp.
I work in tech but NOT in the SV bubble. Everyone I know uses Google Hangouts.

Messenger apps have always been regional, back in high school everyone I knew
used MSN Messenger while people I knew from my old hometown were all on AIM.

~~~
danieldk
Still, Whatsapp has extremely high penetration in some countries outside the
US. E.g. in my country of origin (The Netherlands), 9.8 million people use
Whatsapp, 7 million people daily (of 17 million inhabitants). I now live in
Germany, where Whatsapp had 30 million active users in 2014 (population: 80
million). If people have some other messenger it's typically Facebook
Messenger.

tl;dr: there are a lot of countries/language regions where Whatsapp is the
absolutely dominant messenger.

------
technofiend
If Facebook wasn't famous for keeping all data they collect I would just swap
my phone number for another, like a throw away VoIP line. Retroactive
declarations like this should be illegal.

~~~
ktamiola
I couldn't agree more!

------
unicornporn
If I delete my account now, will my (meta)data still be shared with the big F?

~~~
giancarlostoro
They make profiles for people even if they don't have them. Your data will
survive in some form.

------
brakmic
It's all about Making the World a Better Place™ ;)

------
maccard
Well this is kind of obvious, is it not? Of course Facebook is going to have
access to your data, they run the service. It's the same as expecting Google
to not have access to your nest data, or Amazon to not have access to your
twitch data.

If it turns out that they're still using our data for advertisement purposes
between the two platforms after opting out, then we can be outraged.

~~~
danieldk
_Well this is kind of obvious, is it not? Of course Facebook is going to have
access to your data, they run the service. It 's the same as expecting Google
to not have access to your nest data, or Amazon to not have access to your
twitch data._

The problem is that when Whatsapp gained traction, they were a company that
built much of their reputation on charging a small yearly fee rather than
selling your data or putting up advertisements. Or to quote 2012's Whatsapp
once more:

 _Advertising isn 't just the disruption of aesthetics, the insults to your
intelligence and the interruption of your train of thought. At every company
that sells ads, a significant portion of their engineering team spends their
day tuning data mining, writing better code to collect all your personal data,
upgrading the servers that hold all the data and making sure it's all being
logged and collated and sliced and packaged and shipped out... And at the end
of the day the result of it all is a slightly different advertising banner in
your browser or on your mobile screen.

Remember, when advertising is involved you the user are the product._

[https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-
ads](https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-ads)?

It's clear why people are upset.

~~~
maccard
That's a different argument, and a different article.

The topic at hand is that the opt out doesn't stop Facebook accessing the
whatsapp data, only prevents them from using it for advertising purposes.

------
wcummings
I'm done with WhatsApp

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zbuf
If I haven't agreed to the Facebook T&Cs (I don't have an account) how does
this affect me? I am I linking my friends accounts with lots of private data
based on who I'm communicating with?

In the UK, where I have to pay money for media messaging and international
SMS, WhatsApp is great. It's ad policy was something of its appeal that
allowed me to see past the lock-in to one vendor.

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shmel
I don't get why everybody is pissed off. Did anybody really believe FB bought
that company as a sort of charity? Surely they are interested in the
exploitation of users metadata.

If you don't like it, use _anything_ else. You can even use damn SMS, I guess
in 2016 they are unlimited everywhere in the world.

~~~
desas
MMS aren't in the UK, big use case of what's app is sharing images/s short
videos privately.

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bikamonki
Relevant to this subject:
[https://www.ft.com/content/50bb4830-6a4c-11e6-ae5b-a7cc5dd5a...](https://www.ft.com/content/50bb4830-6a4c-11e6-ae5b-a7cc5dd5a28c)

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BinaryIdiot
The terms mention this explicitly and it was talked about when the original
stories broke; is there anything new here? I didn't see anything at least.

The data WhatsApp will still share with Facebook is the type of data that can
be anonymized and while I'm not saying it will (I mean why would they bother?
Probably more valuable to NOT anonymize) it's the typical data _most_ apps are
collecting.

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po1nter
Direct link to the article instead of a google redirect:
[http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-
tech/new...](http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-
tech/news/whatsapp-data-sharing-with-facebook-opting-out-of-new-terms-doesnt-
actually-stop-facebook-taking-a7213221.html)

