
Moj.io: Connect your car to the world around you - mck-
http://moj.io/
======
fudged71
I don't understand why it was designed to fit nicely in your hand, and why it
was made with bright colors.

#1. This thing will be under your steering wheel 100% of the time, so being
able to hold it ergonomically doesn't make a lick of sense.

#2. If one of your advertised functionalities is for recovery after theft, the
last thing you want is for the thief to be able to spot the dongle and remove
it. If I bought one, the first thing I would do is obscure it with hockey
tape, but I would be concerned that the wireless capabilities would be
hindered.

~~~
9999
Those OBD II connectors in cars can be kind of a pain to plug and unplug, so
it does need to fit the hand well, but your point about the bright colors is
very good. I hope they consider something more discrete.

~~~
nsainaney
We are indeed. We intend to offer multiple colors and will allow users to
choose a color if we exceed 5000 units.

~~~
mck-
This may be a long shot, but were you at Launch@Grow?

~~~
jaygiraud
Actually, yes we were! Did you go on any of the startup crawls?

~~~
mck-
Ooh, I think I might have had a conversation with Narayan! I was showcasing
Routific at that conference when he came to our booth and we talked for a bit.
Now I realize that he was showing me a prototype of the Mojio! :)

~~~
nsainaney
At the Roundhouse Community Center? Yes that was me :)

~~~
mck-
Small world indeed -- impressive work; Keep it up!

------
OldSchool
Worth noting since we're all supposed to be hackers, the connector hasn't
changed over the years since '96 OBD II in the US, but there are several
protocols and many vendor-specific subsets of interaction. Early "code
readers" may not work on later cars despite having the same plug because the
underlying protocol is different. It's easy enough to find out what the
protocols are on wikipedia if you're interested. What's available greatly
depends on the specific vehicle manufacturer but there is a minimum set of
data including DTC's (diagnostic trouble codes) for all.

With manufacturer-specific details, there's an unbelievable amount of data and
even commands and firmware download capability through that port. A decent PC-
based system with specifics for your vehicle added-on is a worthy tool if you
tend to do your own car repairs. Or at least you can go into the shop and tell
them what part you need and know whether you're being quoted a reasonable
price.

------
fudged71
Considering the possibilities, I'm very much surprised that Google hasn't
entered this space to supplement their traffic intelligence. Just look at the
possibilities of the Torque Android app and this Mojio dongle to see how
powerful it is.

If Google came out with a bluetooth OBD-II dongle, they could integrate it
into Google Maps/Nav and Google Now, both on Android and iOS. And you don't
need an expensive cellular connection for a lot of the functionality, driving
down the cost.

In the long term, this would have positive effects for them. They would have
realtime analytics from the roads to vastly improve traffic analytics in
Google Maps. Google Navigation would also be improved for the user by
providing realtime information about speed and fuel, which would greatly
improve the user experience (more accurate directions, heads up display of
speed, and "nearest gas station" when you're running low).

Best of all? It would be $20, and provide them with all the data they need to
make their upcoming driverless cars navigate better as well as improving
navigation for existing android users in normal cars. It would also tell them
how inefficient people are using their vehicles, and use this real
crowdsourced data to market the efficiency of their driverless vehicles.

~~~
mikeash
I'm confused, how does getting the speed directly from the car improve
directions and heads-up display of speed over getting the speed from the GPS
unit?

~~~
brc
The big advantage over built-in car navigation systems vs hand-held GPS units
is that they measure speed and distance far more accurately via the wheel
sensors. If you live in a city with a lot of tunnels or GPS dead spots, this
can make a real difference.

I would imagine the same information applies. If you can blend the GPS and the
wheel sensors, you would get the most accurate reading, because wheel sensors
can become inaccurate through fitment of different size wheels and/or tyres.

~~~
fudged71
And going over sweet jumps

------
skrebbel
I've recently done some work for a startup that is developing a highly
comparable product.

I strongly doubt their "works on any car since 1995" claim. While OBD-II has
been an official standard for very long, not all cars support it equally well
at all. We've had serious trouble getting it to work with A-brand cars made in
e.g. 1999.

Therefore, I believe that them making this claim can mean one of two things:

    
    
       - They're lying
       - Their "prototype" has seen little field testing at this point.
    

That said, honesty be told, we've been testing in Europe, where the OBD
standard has been adopted later. My impression is that moj.io is a North-
American only product. Maybe this makes all the difference.

Additionally, however, "Virtual Mechanic" based on OBD-II alone is going to be
a half-assed feature (to my understanding). OBD-II contains little more error
reporting than that related to emission (i.e. your engine). If your airbag or
your breaks malfunction, then this may only be reported through manufacturer-
specific protocols. Most importantly, this would mean that a light in your
dashboard may be lit, while the Moj.io app says "Running Great!" I highly
doubt that they have implemented all manufacturer-specific protocols to a
sufficient extent for this feature to work well. It is technically possible,
but it needs either a lot of reverse engineering, or a lot of purchased IP.

I really like the other features (FamilyConnect, etc), though, and how they're
presented. Well done!

Still, while I like this approach, and while I want this badly myself (and a
lot of moj.io seems better planned, marketed and designed than what I've been
involved in), based on the above I have strong doubts.

Now, I understand that this may be hard criticism, and maybe I'm completely
wrong about some aspects - I'm no real expert here. So if one of the founders
reads this, feel free to correct me!

~~~
jaygiraud
Hi skrebbel, great insights here. moj.io is a spin out of another company
called REV Technologies, that has been doing energy telematics for the US Army
with its partners at SAIC and Honeywell Aerospace since 2008. REV has
extensive experience with CANbus networks and OBD communication. Our prototype
moj.io device has the benefit of all that experience, whereby REV has been
controlling power converters, inverters, motor controllers, large lithium
battery packs and many other high voltage electronics and communicating over
both the low, med and high speed CAN networks of both modern and not so modern
cars.

In regards to the Virtual Mechanic app, you're absolutely right. We know that
presently it won't be as extensive on european cars as it will be for North
America, which is part of the reason for focusing on the North American market
for now. But that is just one app, and probably the least interesting one to
the general market of drivers out there. We think the majority of the other
apps that we and the dev community will build will only need basic info like
odo reading, speed, on/off ignition states and what gear the car is in. So
much can be done with that when blended with data from the device's
accelerometer, GPS, etc. Jay

Thanks for the very informed thinking on this! Great dialog.

------
antonb2011
Wow! A HUGE market that escaped everybody’s attention! There are a few
comments that come to mind:

First, this Modj.io company provides free testing ground for car companies to
see if there is really a wide demand for such feedback mechanisms in public.
At the first sight, I would say that there is, as they outlined in their
sample use cases in the video.

Second, the only chance that Modj.io has for survival is a quick ramp-up of
user base, because this technology is a perfect example of what car companies
will try to use for customer lock-in. Kind of like iTunes for your car,
storing driving and tracking data in the cloud. I foresee that every car
company will try to develop their own platform, SDK, and an app, with unique
synergies coming from having access to their cars’ deep engineering knowledge.
Additionally, this will give car companies real-time feedback about the
performance of their cars down to the last part that failed. This will allow
them to know things like that the left windshield wiper motor batch that fails
more often that average was assembled on a Friday night by John Doe. That’s
scary level of detail and feedback.

Third, with such level of granularity, insurance companies will have a whole
new set of market segmentation metrics, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see
attempts in horizontal integration of car companies with such feedback
information with insurance providers.

Forth, when each car company starts promoting their own SDK, we will see an
aggregator-type company that will produce an abstraction SDK that allows you
to write an app once to work on all cars.

Just my $0.02. I’d love to hear your projections as well, or comments on
something I missed.

~~~
tzm
I don't think it escaped everybody's attention.. there are several
companies/people working on this.

~~~
lucisferre
Citation needed.

~~~
znq
Some of them do work in the shadows. Since they're not a social media startup
they don't need the big media attention ;-)

------
tzm
There is a community of OBD2 hackers out there working on this same problem w/
Arduino / Raspberry Pie. In my opinion, this is a feature that will be
replaced by manufacturers embracing open APIs for the benefit of a more
connected environment. So, while timely now, it will eventually be displaced.

If you want to build your own, start with OpenGuage:
<http://code.google.com/p/opengauge/>

------
doublerebel
Awesome. We are to 4 in just a few months [1]: Lit Motors C-1,
Appcelerator+Denso, Ford's Open API, and now Moj.io. This space is exploding
quickly and as a hacker and car enthusiast I can't wait to see what is next.
Best of luck on your launch!

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4746532>

------
zx2c4
Will we be able to modify the software running on the device? I sure as hell
don't want information about my car's problems or GPS whereabouts, not to
mention a detailed record of when I'm speeding, to be uploaded to "the cloud".

And of course -- the increasingly likely case that "the cloud" gets owned, the
hardware devices get some kind of pushed software update, which then proceeds
to use manufacturer specific commands to upload new firmware into my car and
drive me off the road.

Blah blah. There're good reasons to be reluctant about hooking your car up to
the internet and sending your data over yonder.

It looks like potentially nice hardware. Now let me do the software myself.

While you're at it, it'd be nice to just make the software open-source, so
that tinkerers can tinker.

Lest I have to JTAG the shit out of the flash chip. Which reminds me to ask --
can you at the very least keep some JTAG or serial headers on there? Please?

~~~
nsainaney
Because of licensing and other issues, we aren't certain yet if we can make
the firmware of the mojio open source. You can totally write your own apps
against our cloud api. This is to abstract away vehicle idiosyncrasies from
app developers. That said, we do want more savvy OBD experts to contribute to
mojio.

As for your data, you can wipe your data from the mojio servers at any time.
Only you can see the data and choose which apps get to see it.

~~~
zx2c4
> we aren't certain yet if we can make the firmware of the mojio open source

Please do let me know when you find out. This is a very important factor for
me and many others.

> You can totally write your own apps against our cloud api.

I think you might have overlooked the primary point of the post. Many folks
don't want and don't trust the cloud. My coordinates, travel history, and
vehicle information are my business and are not to be stored in the cloud.

> As for your data, you can wipe your data from the mojio servers at any time.

Except law enforcement.

> Only you can see the data

Except law enforcement. Except hackers. Except the other guy's insurance
company's subpoena after an accident. And also, the point about remotely
reprogramming the device to reflash my car firmware...

The point is -- many folks don't want to plug their car into cloud services.

> we do want more savvy OBD experts to contribute to mojio.

This is a difficult request when the platform is possibly going to be closed-
source. Make it an open project, feel better when you receive funding for an
open source project, and fuel good community innovation. Keeping it a closed
"cloud api" platform stifles this. By the way, having an API doesn't mean
things are "open", for whatever that word is worth now a days.

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear your plans for JTAG/serial headers, if
you're going to be keeping the firmware closed-source.

~~~
charlesfracchia
I agree with zx2c4 whole-heartedly!

The main issue you are going to have is security. I can't see any evidence on
your website or video that you have thought about this aspect.

The combination of a closed-source solution, cloud-connectivity and connecting
to the car through OBD-II seems the wrong approach to me.

Closed-source has been the pitfall of many companies in the past because fewer
people get to examine the proposed solution and thus much more prone to
security implementation errors.

Cloud-connectivity is the heart of what zx2c4 was talking about.

As for the OBD-II port, what you tout as an advantage in your video is
actually a disadvantage. First because since 1995, the internet connectivity
landscape has changed dramatically, and security strategies have had to adapt.
In fact, often struggling to keep up. This means that the OBDII port was never
designed with internet connectivity in mind. This is not a commercial
advantage but a security concern! Examples like CarShark
([http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2010-05/researchers-
hack-...](http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2010-05/researchers-hack-car-
computers-shutting-down-brakes-engine-and-more)) or the recent string of
thefts made easier through the use of the OBD2
([http://jalopnik.com/5923802/watch-hackers-steal-a-bmw-in-
thr...](http://jalopnik.com/5923802/watch-hackers-steal-a-bmw-in-three-
minutes)) port are proof that the port is not a good candidate for wider
connectivity.

In environments where security matters tremendously like nuclear power plants,
a core strategy seems to be limiting capabilities in hardware. The OBDII port
does not follow that spec as far as I am aware. The communication scheme
allows you to do bidirectional communication. This means that if a 0-day
vulnerability was found in your system (closed-source only makes this more
difficult to patch), attackers could use your infrastructure to write data to
the car such as programming in new keys (like the BWM attack). So it seems to
me that you would need a hardware-enforced read only port which doesn't exist.
Incidentally that is fundamentally the reason behind some car manufacturers
ensuring that their entertainment systems (with BT connectivity etc) are fully
separate from the car main computer (whose traditional access port is the
OBDII).

As we have discussed, even just collecting said data and storing it in the
cloud is undesirable outcome for the driver (your customer in theory...).

This is only my 2 cents, I hope it helps you understand why I think this
implementation is not a desirable solution and ultimately why I won't be
backing this project despite. Don't get me wrong, just like many folks here, I
would love to have a JTAG to poke around and make some cool toy applications
but I will never use this as you intended it and plug it into a car.

~~~
nsainaney
Hi charlesfracchia, Nobody wants their driving information openly available to
the world - neither do we so yes, we have thought about security.

The OBD protocols do not address security and have been hacked but the moj.io
does not expose the OBD protocols to the Internet. moj.io communicates to the
moj.io cloud over an encrypted VPN.

When you receive a moj.io, you have to pair it to your moj.io account. To do
this, you require the serial number of the device and a secret PIN (which you
can change and never share). No one has access to your data﻿ unless you
explicitly grant access (e.g. service garage, insurance company, family member
etc.). You also see who is checking you out (once you grant them access)

------
kmfrk

        moj.io works in all major urban centers with coverage for
        95% of the Canadian and US population
    

I think this should be near the top. Kickstarter-like projects always forget
to account for international backers, which is getting seriously annoying.

------
evck
Most of the neat things that this device can accomplish could also be done
with an OBD-II to Bluetooth interface, which can be had for ~$20 off EBay.

You don't get remote access to the bus, but it's much cheaper. Not sure how
they plan to implement some of the non-OBD-II features (remote unlock is a
major one) for all vehicles, since there's no standard. But it'll be
interesting to see where this goes.

------
K2h
I wonder what the power draw is? a tad worried my car wont start after
longterm parking.

~~~
nsainaney
mojio monitors your vehicle battery level and ignition state. It will go into
a deep sleep state with only critical functions on (e.g. theft monitoring) if
the vehicle is not doing much. If the car battery hits some critical level, it
will send you an alert and shut itself off.

~~~
K2h
Superb! Thanks so much for clarifying that.

------
filvdg
I see the advantage of having a sim (the real remote monitoring part) but also
the disadvantage of needing a dataplan for the sim and security concerns ...
why not just make a bluetooth dongle for a fraction of the price ...

~~~
vostrocity
What is the Bluetooth going to connect to when the car owner isn't the one
driving?

------
nsainaney
Great comments everyone. We agonized about bluetooth. If we can get bluetooth
into the mojio without affecting the delivery dates, we intend to include it
in the current version - no promises right now though. That way, people have
the option to go without a data plan as needed. Also, there's no data plan
lock in to mojio so we are looking for ways where people can either add a
device to their existing cellular plan or just pay for months where they need
it. We are also exploring ways to offset data plan costs. If we can get a
sufficient user base, we all get to enjoy the economies of scale.

------
obilgic
So such a port exists in all cars since 95, and no one did something like
that?

~~~
fudged71
Progressive Insurance did :|

I nearly threw my remote at the television when I first saw that they were
trying to get people to plug their insurance company into the computer of
their car.

------
tobyjsullivan
This looks very promising. Good potential for affordable fleet-tracking.

I'm also excited to see a local (Vancouver) company with such a polished
offer. I'll be following this one closely.

~~~
mck-
Same here -- I'll be interested to see if they go head-on against Webtech
Wireless

------
peterhajas
I had a roommate with one of these ODB connector dongles. He paired it with
his phone, and was able to get _tons_ of information about the car.

He could even shut off various warnings/status lights, which was handy (my car
at the time had a faulty sensor).

~~~
hackmiester
He may have been using the Torque app, for Android. I have it and it is
excellent.

------
cedricd
Nice... though you don't talk about what the data plan will cost. I assume
it's basically like having an iPad with various carriers. But I could see that
as a possible issue.

Maybe if it could connect to the wifi of my house and send some data then?

~~~
doublerebel
_From their indiegogo page:_

Indiegogo backers pay only $7.99/mth or $79/year (US subscribers) for wireless
service.

moj.io uses machine-to-machine (M2M) cellular data exchange to send and
receive data to and from your car. Unlike email, web browsing, etc, M2M data
exchange is very small and requires only a very small data account.

Presently, moj.io will work with any car built after 1995 and has cellular
coverage in Canada and US cities. moj.io is supported by different wireless
carriers in the US and Canada. When travelling from network to network,
because it is on an M2M connection, there are no roaming fees. Your moj.io's
default international roaming setting is set to Off. Contact us for details on
international roaming rates between Canada and the US to enable this setting.

------
judge224
Interesting, lots of products being made by much larger companies already in
the market... Audiovox just launched their Car Connection at retail. Not sure
if you considered the competition. Calamp, danlaw, xirgo, anydata, etc. etc

------
coldskull
i am surprised nobody talked about security...i am guessing the OBD interface
in cars can be used to send commands to various components....could somebody
hack into your car??

~~~
cleverjake
ODB means On Board Diagnostics. A majority of vehicles only report information
- its not generally a control interface.

~~~
fudged71
That doesn't mean that the security issue doesn't exist. Via wikipedia:

"Researchers at the University of Washington and University of California
examined the security around OBD, and found that they were able to gain
control over many vehicle components via the interface. Furthermore, they were
able to upload new firmware into the engine control units. Their conclusion is
that vehicle embedded systems are not designed with security in mind."

~~~
cleverjake
Hence the use of "majority".

Thank you for finding that link, I was trying to find this[1] presentation for
my comment, but couldn't.

[1] -
[http://users.cis.fiu.edu/~carbunar/teaching/cis5374/slides/a...](http://users.cis.fiu.edu/~carbunar/teaching/cis5374/slides/autosec.g.mastakar.pptx)

------
Cieplak
I'm really glad this wasn't around when I was a teenage driver.

------
aashay
I went to <http://www.moj.io/obd> as instructed by the FAQ to learn more about
the OnBoard Diagnostic port, but got a 404.

Edit: clarity

------
blibble
the security benefits are questionable, as thieves will learn very quickly to
locate the OBD II port and remove anything plugged in.

------
nicholasreed
Is anybody else using the OnBoard Diagnostic port? Is there some connector for
an Arduino? I love this approach.

~~~
fudged71
I have been using a cheap (<$20) OBD-II dongle in my car for over a year now.
The Torque app[1] has an impressive feature list and constant updates. I use
it with my tablet inverted on the dashboard during night-driving for giving me
a heads up display[2]. It's also great for things like acceleration graphs,
tracking stats over the internet, and keeping check on the engine's
performance/mpg.

[1]
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torq...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torque)
[2] <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OPH7ZJJHV8>

------
purephase
This is brilliant. Very well laid-out with a nice polished design. Might just
have to check this out.

------
namank
There's no security in place against the diagnostic port? I mean other than
lock and key.

~~~
brc
Hah, sadly no. And some enterprising thieves in the UK worked out that in
certain model BMWs, you can cut a hole in the side glass and fit a sensor
sender unit into the sender, while the alarm is activated. This is because the
area beside the drivers mirror is an ultrasonic deadspot. Once the thieves
have access to the diagnostic port, then can use the information to program a
blank key to a valid key, and then steal the car.

The affected models were 1 series, I believe, and it started getting to the
point where the chances of a high-spec 1 series getting stolen were very high.
Google '1 series theft problem' for more info. There is a home-security cam of
some theives stealing a 1 series in a couple of minutes using this technique.

------
alpb
Why "Works with any car built after 1995", what's special about 1995?

~~~
fudged71
>All cars and light trucks built and sold in the United States after January
1, 1996 were required to be OBD II equipped. In general, this means all 1996
model year cars and light trucks are compliant, even if built in late 1995.

<http://www.obdii.com/connector.html>

------
johnnymonster
The world around you minus syria!

------
Gertig
I hope they didn't pick the name moj.io because they couldn't find a better
.io name :) <http://and.io>

