
Portugal trials use of goats to clear vegetation for reduction of wild fire risk - blue_devil
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/17/world/europe/portugal-wildfires-goats-climate-change.html
======
hugoromano
The catalyst of Portugal forest fires is the extense eucalyptus plantations.
Eucalyptus is an introduced pyrophyte species and it doesn't stay confined to
the initial plantation areas, reducing endemic forest, which is generally
"fire-resistant", such as Sweet chestnut Castanea sativa.

~~~
pvaldes
I understand what you want to say, and a better planning definitely wouldn't
hurt, but blaming the tress because are flammable is like saying that the
problem of school shootings is that people is shootable and wore shirts
instead bullet-proof vests.

Spain has Eucalyptus also. Curiously the private plantations burn often _less_
than the public areas adjacent or the nature parks. Talk about weird
statistics.

Without a hand that starts the fire, several times, in several places, in the
middle of the night, in the most windy and dry day of the year, with devices
specially designed for it... without this hand, there is not fire.

~~~
C1sc0cat
So are you saying there is some deliberate economic sabotage going on?

~~~
pvaldes
In some cases, Yes. There are several registered and solved cases of fires by
revenge on natural parks

------
pvaldes
Farmers are behind a lot of fire forests that aim to replace trees in public
(and private) spaces by meadows for cattle

Last years half Portugal and big chunks of Spain suffered of a big
fireforest's wave in a global attack from Cadiz to the North of Spain.
Fireforests started in the same weekend by what can be only called as
"organised crime". We are talking about 1.485 billion in damages for Europe,
10.000 hectares burnt down intentionally and even a few people killed burnt
alive. This is terrorism, in uppercase letters.

Now the area has ben cleared and the cattle has been allowed to enter again
and munch the remaining tree saplings and regenerating vegetation. In this war
for the public resources and territorial uses, politicians are surrendering to
criminals and giving them what they wanted. Is a _humongous_ mistake.

~~~
HugoDaniel
Conspiracy theories. Please back your claims and stop propagating false stuff.

Several independent reports pointed out that the Pedrogão Grande fires (the
ones that killed 64 people) started at the power lines.

[https://www.tsf.pt/sociedade/interior/pedrogao-edp-na-
origem...](https://www.tsf.pt/sociedade/interior/pedrogao-edp-na-origem-das-
chamas-esegundo-um-fogo-fora-dosregistos-oficiais-8848712.html)

[https://www.rtp.pt/noticias/pais/causa-do-incendio-
principal...](https://www.rtp.pt/noticias/pais/causa-do-incendio-principal-de-
junho-ligada-a-linha-eletrica_v1034194)

[https://www.dn.pt/sociedade/interior/incendio-causado-
porlin...](https://www.dn.pt/sociedade/interior/incendio-causado-porlinha-
daedp-8849137.html)

Please stop these conspiracy theories. Many other fires can be tracked down to
power lines.

~~~
pedrocr
That year there was a second event where a lot of people died later in the
year. That happened in a weekend just before rain was forecasted. I can't
confirm the criminal intent but there is no doubt that all throughout the
country people were burning forest and agricultural waste just before the
rain. Because of the weather conditions that started fires all over the
country. One thing that changed after that dark year is that the police now
takes it seriously when you call in about someone burning a pile somewhere.
Whereas before this was already illegal but widely tolerated even though it is
very dangerous.

~~~
fyfy18
I was in Spain early this year, and even in semi-agricultural suburbs around
Jerez I saw people burning large piles agricultural waste in their gardens.

~~~
pvaldes
There is a fire index published by the administration for each day of the
year. It goes from 1 (low) to 5 (extreme risk) and uses probably air humidity,
temperature, and expectacion of future rains and winds.

It is allowed to make a small bonfire or a barbeque in your backyard at day
when the index is low or moderate.

------
coleca
I rented a house on Martha's Vineyard one time and the owner had a company
come in and fence off the backyard and put a bunch of pigs in there to clear
it out. It was heavily overgrown with grass, brush, small trees, and shrubs.
In a week the pigs had completely cleared the whole area out, even ripped out
the roots of the shrubbery / small trees. Quite impressive.

~~~
codyb
I read an article somewhere, maybe the New Yorker, maybe the NY Times (a new
found goat obsession?) which talked about some, I guess herders upstate who
take in goats and then rent them out all around the North East to eat grasses.

Seemed like a neat businesses, and I guess if I’d have been lucky I might have
seen them in NYC happily eating grasses in Central and Inwood parks.

Sometimes you just gotta eat away your problems before they eat away at you I
suppose :-).

------
hawski
I'm reminded of pasturing animals plowing the soil causing it to be less dry
and fertilizing it at the same time.

It was discussed here within this year, but I can't find the discussion page.
One possible link: [https://returntonow.net/2017/11/30/cows-can-turn-desert-
back...](https://returntonow.net/2017/11/30/cows-can-turn-desert-back-
grassland-save-planet/)

~~~
spiderfarmer
The approach is called holistic management. Basically, you make sure cows stay
in one place until they've grazed (or trampled, doesn't matter) the tall
grasses away. Then you move the cows to another place and let nature do its
job. On average, the places where tall grasses were converted to natural
fertilizer, do much better vs. ungrazed places. It's all about the thickness
of the humus layer and the presence of the accompanying microorganisms.

He received a lot of criticism, but the evidence shows it's working.
[https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-
business/2014/aug/19...](https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-
business/2014/aug/19/grazing-livestock-climate-change-george-monbiot-allan-
savory)

The places where it's not working are usually overgrazed or missing other
elements that prevent erosion.

The problem of desertification can be solved everywhere, though it's not
always easy. You need to:

    
    
      - prevent wind erosion by adding the right grasses
      - prevent wind erosion by creating terraces
      - make sure leaves, branches and other dead materials are added to the humus layer
      - protect the vegetative cover by adding trees
      - cycle nutrients through grazing
      - trap water in the humus layer, pits, ditches
    

Also, look up the work of John D. Liu, he did great work in the Löss plateau
in China and Jadav "Molai" Payeng, who created a 300 hectare forest mostly by
himself.

~~~
JetSpiegel
Here is something similar to this in Portugal even, albeit on the sourhtern
parts.

[https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/13/pigs-
rad...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/13/pigs-radical-
farming-system-trees-climate-crisis)

------
wtdata
This is the comment made some days ago in the news about meat and CO2
emissions.

This idea that animals just eat the produce of intensive farming (or that
grazing pastures are planted by men specifically for that purpose) is wrong in
many parts of the world.

We have the obvious example of Argentina, where free grazing cattle uses the
naturally available grass to get fed.

In the case of Southern Europe, there are also goats that have been used to
clean the forests for a long time in order to prevent fires, and that provides
for most or even all of their feeding requirements (besides fulfilling the
important role of fire prevention).

The idea going around how animals are so inefficient per Kg of food/Kg CO2,
fails to take into account (basically all the time) that part of those
animals, only consume naturally occurring flora that is in no way planted by
men.

P.S.: As an interesting related side note, there are a lot of cooking recipes
for old goat in Portugal (the meat needs to be cooked differently).

~~~
EdwardDiego
> P.S.: As an interesting related side note, there are a lot of cooking
> recipes for old goat in Portugal (the meat needs to be cooked differently).

I'd love to get hold of some, it'd be good for cooking chamois and tahr in my
country.

Fun fact, goat is the most widely eaten meat in the world.

~~~
DoingIsLearning
'Chanfana de Cabra' or 'Chanfana de Borrego' is probably the most famous
recipe as wdata pointed out.

I am not sure there are a lot of recipes for this type of meat as it is
claimed.

Mostly it is either slow roasted in an oven or slow cooked in a stew with some
variations on stew ingredients.

The main difference is in the longer cooking time and in preparing the meat.

Traditionally people remove the lymph nodes from certain areas under the legs
and some of the nearby fat tissue. Otherwis this tissue will give a really
unpleasant taste/smell to the cooked meat.

~~~
wtdata
You are right, there are only an handful of dishes using old goat meat.

I was under the impression (my personal take) that there are quite a few
different ways to prepare them though, although the end result (the dish
itself) is similar.

------
atilaneves
CERN has sheep on the site because it's the cheapest way to get the grass cut.
It was weird having meetings that were punctuated by "baaah!" every now and
again.

------
nudpiedo
It is very common in Spain to use goats and sheeps to clean the low vegetation
from forests and and reduce the wild fire risk. I heard that first time 10
years ago, I cannot imagine why the neighbour country wouldn't do the same
until nowadays.

~~~
PedroBatista
We've being doing it for years, I don't know why this is news now.

Probably some friend of a friend of a NYT journalist learned about it now.

~~~
cowmoo728
NYC had some goats this summer to clear vegetation. There was a big launch
party and lots of media attention. It probably put goats on the radar of some
NYT journo.

------
flurdy
Australian (Victoria) Alpine region seems to flip flop between banning grazing
[1] to protect the vulnerable high mountain fauna and the water quality as it
is a source for many rivers. Then allowing grazing again as forest fires go
nuts down there.

Even their bushes and trees are encouraging fires as a vector for growth. [2]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_National_Park#Agricultu...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_National_Park#Agriculture)

[2] [https://www.livescience.com/40583-australia-wildfires-
eucaly...](https://www.livescience.com/40583-australia-wildfires-eucalyptus-
trees-bushfires.html)

------
cascom
There used to be a guy in my town that had a portable electrical fence and a
small heard of goats and you could have him set up on your property and clear
out areas. Much cheaper + environmentally friendly than having someone come
over with a gravely.

------
pvaldes
Same pattern repeating again and again. 2019-Aug. Canary Islands: Three big
fireforests in 2 weeks in turistic peak season. "Don't worry, Spain and Europe
will inject lotta money for fix our s*t. We did the correct and we feel
justified". Goats win.

[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-
europe-49388823](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49388823)

~~~
gamedori
In English the word is forest fires.

~~~
kwhitefoot
I'm English and I rather like fireforests even though this is the first time
I've seen it. To me it gives an impression of a bigger problem than forest
fire. To me it works like this: a forest fire is a fire in a forest whereas a
fireforest is a whole forest on fire, much scarier.

~~~
gamedori
That's an interesting point, but I was confused for about 15 seconds. Maybe
it's because I studied Korean instead of Spanish.

------
pvaldes
After the European Forest Fire Information System (EFFIS), is obvious that
Portugal has a problem with wildfires

[https://effis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/static/effis_stats/](https://effis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/static/effis_stats/)

------
rafaelturk
My experience with Goats: They will even eat fire if it's in front of them...

------
dotancohen
This is very common in Israel. Every year my settlement actually invites local
Beduins, with whom we have terrific relations, to come set up tent and graze.
It is win-win for everyone, besides being a win for relations.

~~~
tamizhar
> my settlement actually invites local Beduins, with whom we have terrific
> relations

That is a nice thing to hear. Is this common or is it an exception?

~~~
yosamino
It's propaganda. The settlement is on land that belonged to the bedou in the
first place - throwing them scraps and interpreting them taking those as
"terrific relations" is just trying deflect from the question of why there are
settlements by the occupying country on occupied land.

~~~
nerdponx
My only point of reference for this kind of thing would be like an American
landowner in the Southwest allowing a Navajo rancher from the reservation to
graze on their property. Is it basically the same thing, or is it somehow
"different"?

~~~
dotancohen

      > My only point of reference for this kind of thing would be
      > like an American landowner in the Southwest allowing a Navajo
      > rancher from the reservation to graze on their property. Is
      > it basically the same thing, or is it somehow "different"?
    

It is similar and it is different.

One difference is that Arizona was founded as a state earlier than Israel, so
people feel that "it's older, so it is OK now".

Another difference is that America decided "all the land is ours", then herded
the Navajo into reservations. In Israel we built in specific places and the
Bedouins continued to be nomadic around us.

Note also that the Bedouins were until recently very nomadic, but today few
Bedouin are nomadic. When the Bedouins were nomadic they would roam huge
areas, but "occupy" only a small area at any one time. From what I understand,
the idea "this land is OURS" didn't pop into anyone's mind, each family
(Hamula) would roam and they pretty much did not need to bother fighting over
land. Only when permanent settlements started being built, and thus land was
removed from the common pool, did this become an issue.

Another issue is that today, a sort of "land war" is happening between some
Bedouins and the state of Israel. I actually believe that the state stared the
problem and then it escalated. In a nutshell, the state is forcing Bedouins
off some settled land and in response the Bedouins are starting to claim more
lands as "permanent settlements". In one particular case that I'm aware of,
the Bedouins have been pushed off a parcel of land and then returned over 100
times. We're not talking about grazing land, which there is enough of for
everybody to share and build on. We are talking about tents and stables and
families. There is a huge difference between the state building a town on a
corner of the grazing land, and the state forcefully remove people from these
places. The former is the case 99% of the time, but the latter is happening
and any decent person will, as I am, oppose it.

------
sillyquiet
We raised goats growing up. We lived in a heavily forested area of rural
Texas. When it came time to build a new chicken pen, we temporarily fenced our
goats in the area we wanted the pen, and in a week or three, there was no
underbrush or scrub left (except for yaupon, even goats don't touch that one)
- just the trees.

~~~
stinos
_we temporarily fenced our goats_

This sounds so much easier than it practically is - unless you're talking
electrical fence or have something really decent you can setup temoporarily?
Our goats destroy, both willingly and unwillingly, any simple fence in hours
or days.

 _no underbrush or scrub left - just the trees_

We have a rather large species of goats (maybe largest, something Nubian) and
they eat the bark of trees so unless you get them away from the tree or the
tree has a sufficient diameter which makes it hard enough to get their teeth
on it, at least 30cm or so, the trees also don't survive :)

~~~
sillyquiet
Pine trees the primary tree we had present, they have rather resinous bark the
goats did not eat. The fence was pretty robust - the only 'temporary' part of
it was the actual fencing. The posts were bedded in cement with sturdy chain-
link fencing. After the goats were done, my father and older brothers removed
the chain-link and substituted it for chicken wire to form the basis for the
new chicken pen.

------
bitbckt
This is not a new practice.

For one - admittedly odd - example of training goats for this purpose:
[http://yogoats.org/](http://yogoats.org/)

------
garyclarke27
Typical NYT - they can’t resist blaming warmer summers (always climate
change). WRONG Portugal has been quite cool last 2 summers, I moved to Cascais
2 years ago from UK, my wife constantly complains how cold it is here
especially because I promised her warm weather! eg today has been typical,
only 21 degrees C in August. However has been sunny and incredibly windy, I
suspect the wind contributes more to fire risk than high temperature.

~~~
ComputerGuru
_Holidaymakers in Spain and Portugal have been warned to stay out of the sun
as the region approaches the hottest temperatures ever recorded in Europe.

Eight Portuguese regions have already smashed their local records as a warm
blast of air from North Africa sweeps the continent._

August 2018

[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/weather-
heat...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/weather-heatwave-
latest-record-temperature-europe-spain-portugal-warning-hot-met-
office-a8477181.html)

------
blackflame7000
Here in San Diego, they are doing the same thing.

