
Huawei isn't trustworthy 5G partner, German spy agency says - DyslexicAtheist
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-13/huawei-isn-t-a-trustworthy-5g-partner-german-intelligence-says
======
deugtniet
I think there is one reason why western governments are opposed to Huawei
systems in their communications networks. Western governments have
historically had more trust in the US being a partner they can rely on, which
is not the case (yet) for the Chinese.

All governments spy on each other, and they do whatever is necessary for their
spying needs, the US, European nations as well as the Chinese. And I bet this
includes exploiting Huawei/Cisco/Nokia/Motorolla hardware. Only difference is
in this case for Germany: The US is more trusted than the Chinese. Thus the
US/Europe get more leeway in these hardware purchases.

~~~
frotak
Western governments have historically been allied with and have had
intelligence sharing and cooperation arrangements with the U.S.

There is a general alignment of Western intelligence agencies as a cooperative
group against the antagonism of China (and Russia, NK, etc)

It isn't just "everybody spies" \- it's "we are actively engaged in an
adversarial relationship together against this other group"

~~~
SEJeff
In addition, there is a "special" arrangement between 5 western allies called
the "five eyes"[1]. Between the five partners, they cover internet backbone
infra for much of the world.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes)

~~~
wolfgke
Germany is not part of the Five Eyes alliance.

~~~
craftyguy
They never claimed Germany was. The wiki link in GP doesn't list Germany as
being a part of the five eyes.

~~~
wolfgke
> They never claimed Germany was.

The article is about Germany.

~~~
SEJeff
and much of the EU internet traffic, including to/from germany, goes through
the UK. I'm not sure why I'm being downvoted for pointing out a relevant fact
on US and western allies who share intel and basically have tapped most all of
the fiber in the world via legal or illegal methods (per the snowden docs).

~~~
wolfgke
> and much of the EU internet traffic, including to/from germany, goes through
> the UK.

Indeed - and many German citizens who are interested in such topics find this
concerning exactly because of Five Eyes.

My comment that Germany is not part of Five Eyes

>
> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19399560](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19399560)

refers to its grandparent

>
> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19398858](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19398858)

which I requote here:

"Western governments have historically been allied with and have had
intelligence sharing and cooperation arrangements with the U.S.

There is a general alignment of Western intelligence agencies as a cooperative
group against the antagonism of China (and Russia, NK, etc)

It isn't just "everybody spies" \- it's "we are actively engaged in an
adversarial relationship together against this other group"".

~~~
SEJeff
bingo. The BND and NSA work very closely together even if they aren't in FVEY.
This is quite well known, but it makes a lot of sense in the face of
Russian/NK/Chinese aggressions. As much as our president wants you to not
believe, we are stronger together.

------
ThJ
Huawei is an interesting case. It normally isn't a problem to operate out of a
country like China, but telecommunications infrastructure is sensitive. We are
essentially seeing a rare case of differences in political systems having
real-world effects on the export of goods. If China had the same relationship
to the West as today, but stronger legal protections, this wouldn't be an
issue at all, I suspect.

~~~
cyphunk
also if in the future we actually make cellular standards where encryption
isn't demarcated at the tower and instead setup e2e between consumer devices,
some risks are mitigated

it's really a shame that with both 4g and 5g standards bodies did not already
work on this.

~~~
ardy42
> instead setup e2e between consumer devices, some risks are mitigated

Only some, though. The metadata will still be there to be collected, which I
understand is more valuable than you'd assume on first glance.

~~~
Sylamore
Metadata is more than enough:
[https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-
metad...](https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-
find-paul-revere/)

------
expertentipp
Why they are so obssesed with 5g?! One traveling on the Berlin S-Bahn ring
receives EDGE mobile connection. Let me guess - the only trustworthy and
reliable partner is T-Mobile?

~~~
yorwba
It's a new frequency space that can be auctioned off, so they can try to set
new rules requiring expansion of coverage and local roaming. So in theory the
exact opposite of "the only trustworthy and reliable partner is T-Mobile." Of
course none of the triopoly like that proposal, so it's not clear yet whether
those new rules will actually be implemented or not.

If it weren't for these political considerations, expanding 3G coverage
instead would be cheaper and likely good enough for most applications.
Especially the self driving car stuff where 5G is always touted as necessary:
if it can't work without constant network connection, it's not safe enough to
be deployed on the streets.

~~~
expertentipp
> So in theory the exact opposite of "the only trustworthy and reliable
> partner is T-Mobile."

My last sentence was was /s, obviously.

> Especially the self driving car stuff where 5G is always touted as
> necessary:

Germany must the only country where the development of 5G is not motivated by
providing better connectivity to the citizens, but by.... the interests of
automotive industry. The oligopoly is strong.

------
phil9987
It's easy to point at Huawei and say 'they are not trustworthy'. The question
is, what alternatives are out there and can they deliver?

~~~
Maakuth
Nokia and Ericsson are the other big 5G vendors. I don't know of any problems
in their ability to deliver.

~~~
Entalpi
Besides both are old companies with solid reputations in two stable
democracies.

------
chapium
"it would be hard to work with a company that cooperates with its national
secret service. "

Doesn't every telecom company cooperate with its home government? I see a lot
of doubt cast towards Huawei's behavior, but how about some evidence?

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stkdump
> An outright ban on Huawei is seen as legally impossible, but German
> officials are looking at tools that would have the same effect.

How can 'tools' with the effect of a ban be legal, when a ban isn't?

~~~
sbx320
The usual approach would be to define requirements in a way that are
unsuitable for the specific vendor you want to get rid of.

This is more common the other way around, where a government wants a specific
company to do a job, but is required to issue a public call for bids. In that
case the requirements are just written exactly for that specific company.

------
jmakov
What about e2e encryption and then you don't have to care about the
infrastructure?

------
throw2016
This is a witch hunt that will undermine confidence in the global economic
system. Everything one can accuse Huawei of can be applied against any tech
company - and for some with hard evidence and most here know.

This can easily backfire with tech companies being banned and excluded from
markets on frivolous grounds without due process in the same way.

It cannot just be some can undermine competition and limit access to markets
with scaremongering and wild allegations. If free markets and competition are
mere political constructs to benefit a few then the whole system is
effectively over.

