
The CEO of Panera Bread attempts to live off food stamps for a week - weu
https://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20130913215601-25745675-snap-challenge-day-1-prepping-for-the-challenge?trk=tod-home-art-list-large_0
======
thomasz
While there is nothing inherently wrong with experiments like that, there
should be no mistake that "taking the SNAP challenge" does not give you a deep
understanding about the condition of being poor. Living by $4.50 a day for a
week with a seven figure bank account, a nice car and a house in an upscale
neighborhood makes you a tourist.

I just don't understand the rationale behind this. It's not like there is a
big misunderstanding about the poor living an awesome life. What's missing is
the slightest shred of empathy for them.

    
    
               But she didn't understand,
            she just smiled and held my hand.
               Rent a flat above a shop,
              cut your hair and get a job.
           Smoke some fags and play some pool,
            pretend you never went to school.
          But still you'll never get it right,
          cos when you're laid in bed at night,
            watching roaches climb the wall,
        if you call your Dad he could stop it all.
        -- Pulp, Common People

~~~
malkia
There is hidden cost in being poor: You don't have a car, or money for gas -
so you don't have access to cheaper stores. Simple as that. Did he account for
it?

~~~
yummyfajitas
False. 70% of the poor own a car and 25% own two cars.

[http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf](http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf)

~~~
mkopinsky
Why was this downvoted?

------
peterwwillis
_" On Wednesday night, after a long work day, I got into my car"_

That's his first mistake. Many (most?) people on food stamps can't afford a
car. When you have little money for food, and you just got off the late shift
of your second job, you have an even longer trip to the store, costing you
more money.

Many of these people also may live in food deserts, where the most common type
of store is a liquor store, followed maybe by a payday loan place and a gas
station, or a bar. That's where I live anyway.

The closest grocery store is a very poorly maintained Aldi, and some people I
know take a cab there and back once a week so they don't have to spend an hour
or more traveling by bus.

~~~
Dylan16807
How long is the taxi ride? And does the bus pass by _any_ properly-maintained
grocery stores? I'm really interested in this because the bus near me goes
from suburbs to the middle of downtown in about half an hour, going by quite a
few groceries. I didn't know it was possible to be that far from anywhere to
buy food in a non-rural area.

~~~
001sky
Example: Total Trip: 85 minutes. This is 20 mintes each way, plus wait times.
Bus comes 30 minutes on some routes, every 60 on others. A median wiat time
would be 30-60 minutes for a round trip.

~~~
peterwwillis
Yes, exactly. As funding gets pulled from public transit budgets, routes run
less and less frequently.

In Florida (where I lived before Baltimore) it can take two and a half hours
by bus to travel what takes around 20 minutes by car, but there the grocery
stores are plentiful because of the immense urban sprawl.

In Baltimore and DC, there are literally almost no grocery stores in large
swaths of the city, and not a lot of bus lines, because why would buses run
often to places with no commerce? Some heavily traveled lines are between a
half hour and an hour late, regularly.

\--

This[1] is a map of food deserts in DC, which doesn't include Prince George's
County (where most of the gentrification is pushing lower-to-middle-class
[almost entirely black] families that can't afford living in DC anymore). Note
that children are highly affected. There have been studies showing the lack of
nutrition for children severely affects their development.

This[2] page from Baltimore City Planning lays out the numbers, in which 1/3
of Baltimore neighborhoods lie in a food desert (we're not as well off as DC's
metro-accessible gentrified and developed areas; our metro is a joke). It's
much easier to find Ramen noodles than it is a piece of fruit, or non-fried
foods.

Walmart has been trying to break into DC and Baltimore for years, and is
coming very close, partly on the argument that it would lessen food deserts.
But the reality shows that they are pushing hard for long, large flat parking
lots and super-centers, which 1. increases car traffic to an already congested
urban neighborhoods, 2. removes store space and convenience for small
businesses, which in turn 3. reduces the number of small businesses available
to sell healthy food to locals, because they can just get everything at
Walmart.

This results in no additional relief for the majority of residents in food
deserts, while reducing the number of small businesses that could have
provided better food service, and making traffic worse for public transit
(which is already stressed).

The USDA had a map of food deserts from 2010 but it's not working for me.
Maybe someone can download the data from here[3] and plot it in some
JavaScript library?

\--

[1] [http://dcentric.wamu.org/2011/05/mapping-d-c-s-food-
deserts/...](http://dcentric.wamu.org/2011/05/mapping-d-c-s-food-
deserts/index.html)

[2]
[http://www.baltimorecity.gov/Government/AgenciesDepartments/...](http://www.baltimorecity.gov/Government/AgenciesDepartments/Planning/BaltimoreFoodPolicyInitiative/FoodDeserts.aspx)

[3] [http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/food-access-
research-a...](http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/food-access-research-
atlas/download-the-data.aspx)

------
visakanv
Somebody on Quora once wrote beautifully about how it's impossible for the
rich to ever understand what it's like to be truly, horribly poor- because
there is no escape. There is no safety. The writer described how, even when he
was in dire straits, at the back of his mind he knew that he could count on
maybe extended family or something or someone to pull him out of trouble. The
poor have no such privilege. True despair means being truly, completely cut
off.

So there's really very little a rich person can do to walk in the shoes of a
poor person- because even if say, Bill Gates gave away ALL his fortune and got
himself into crippling debt or something- at least some people will recognize
that he's Bill Gates, and treat him differently for it.

No simple solutions to offer here, just saying dis shit is complex.

~~~
jbert
> Somebody on Quora once wrote beautifully about how it's impossible for the
> rich to ever understand what it's like to be truly, horribly poor- because
> there is no escape. There is no safety.

Jarvis Cocker wrote quite a good song in that vein:

[http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/pulp/commonpeople.html](http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/pulp/commonpeople.html)

~~~
shimfish
Incidentally, I really like William Shatner's cover. It brings out the
contempt in the lyrics. And it rocks.

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ainyK6fXku0](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ainyK6fXku0)

------
SteveGerencser
Many many years ago as a new parent recently laid off we went on the 'food
stamp program'. They really were little pieces of paper back then. I ate
better for those 7 weeks than I had all my adult life to that point. And it
was years before I was able to eat that well again.

The system is great for what it tries to do, help people in need. But in my
opinion we have gone far too far in trying to remove the 'stigma' of being on
aid. Instead of heading in to town to collect our stamps you get an EBT card
with money automatically added to your account each month. It's too easy to
take the money. When we were on aid we needed it. But having to use those
colored pieces of paper in line at the grocery store while everyone else
watched was a huge motivator to get out and get a job.

~~~
damncabbage

      I ate better for those 7 weeks than I had all my adult
      life to that point.
    

I'd suggest that today's "food stamps" don't cover as much as they used to.
The article does a good job of showing how little nutritious food the handouts
can buy.

    
    
      Instead of heading in to town to collect our stamps...
    

Which costs money, particularly if you have to live a fair way outside out of
town. Because you're poor.

    
    
      But having to use those colored pieces of paper in line
      at the grocery store while everyone else watched was a
      huge motivator to get out and get a job.
    

People _are_ trying. Pull your head out and look at the economy. You may be
fine; plenty aren't, and are stuck in a rut where they can't get out.

I know arguing with you is useless, but it's this " _I worked hard, I got
mine, so fuck you_ " attitude that's making everything worse for the poor.
Have some empathy.

~~~
SteveGerencser
Without going in to a very long detailed family history, I do have 2 sisters
that have basically worked less than 20% of their entire adult life. Between
them they have 8 kids and 5 baby daddys. They do very well living on 'aid'.
One of them is in Fort Meyers "on vacation" right now.

For every person trying hard and working to improve their life, there is
usually a matching person not giving a damn and enjoying the freedom that not
having to work gives them. Do they live in a nice house and drive a nice car?
Nope. But they live as well as any college student in any fair sized college
town, and had Playstations and X-Boxes long before I did.

But thanks for projecting 'your' issues on me. I never once said I got mine so
fuck you. Not even close to that.

~~~
cpleppert
>>For every person trying hard and working to improve their life, there is
usually a matching person not giving a damn and enjoying the freedom that not
having to work gives them. Do they live in a nice house and drive a nice car?
Nope. But they live as well as any college student in any fair sized college
town, and had Playstations and X-Boxes long before I did.

I would love to see statistical evidence of this phenomenon. The unemployment
rate for labor force participants (which you need to be to collect welfare) is
17% so I'm not sure how you get from there to 50%. Out of ALL people living in
poverty 59% don't have job which isn't surprising considering a lot are young
or elderly or performing other familial responsibilities.

As for living as well as any college student in any fair sized town I have a
hard time understanding how that could possibly be true.

~~~
SteveGerencser
Because being poor is not something you play at for a week and decide the
system is broken. In my small circle of family and friends and acquainences,
for every person that needs help, there are 2 or 3 that are living the easy
life. Is it a great life? Hell no. Would I want to live that way? Never again.
But they do it all the time because it is easier than actually working.

Do I know enough to have a statistical standard? No, but I know enough to let
me know that the system is completely and totally broken. The solution is NOT
giving even more aid. The solution is to stop requiring people be so dirt poor
to get it that they give up. Rather than saying oh - you have too much money /
asset / whatever to get get help and forcing them to choose selling their only
car or getting help, give them enough help to bring them to a minimum level of
security.

If that level is $500/wk and they can go out and EARN $300/wk trying to get
ahead, give them $200 more to feel secure in the effort they are making. What
we shouldn't be doing is forcing them to zero and telling them at any effort
short of $500/wk ends all aid. That is a system designed to create and
maintain a 'poor' class of people for very obvious reasons.

------
mynameishere
Sigh. Food stamps are properly called SNAP or "Supplemental Nutrition
Assistance Program". The name isn't a joke--they are supposed to be
"supplemental", not an all-you-can-eat buffet. The reality is that they cause
all kinds of abuses, some legal and some illegal. The CEO of Panera Bread is
probably not an idiot, and is probably aware of this, so I think it would be
best that we not take his pandering too seriously.

------
jmtame
For $3 a day you can eat (relatively) healthy food and only shop once or twice
a week: [http://www.miketuritzin.com/writing/eating-healthily-
for-3-a...](http://www.miketuritzin.com/writing/eating-healthily-for-3-a-day)

I've tried this for a few months. It's hard to do just the rice and beans. We
modified it by adding salsa, shredded cheese, and tortilla shells to make
burritos out of everything. It's probably an extra $20-$30 per month to do
that.

~~~
ctdonath
A LOT of people do very well on $1/meal or less. It's basic frugality.

~~~
jmtame
$1 per meal? What are the ingredients? Did I miss this from the article?

~~~
ctdonath
Check my [http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com](http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com)
for starters.

Google "frugal living" etc too.

------
littletables
Yes he should do this for a month, and he should try it as a woman. You can't
buy tampons with food stamps.

I tried to survive with food stamps for a while when I lived on the streets as
a teen. It was impractical for actually supplementing my survival. When you
have nowhere to live, you have nowhere to cook.

------
jared314
Day 2 is already up:

[http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20130914223744-25...](http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20130914223744-25745675-snap-
challenge-day-2)

I would have rather read this at the end of the challenge, so there would be
some sort of perspective on things.

~~~
thejulielogan
But there's something authentic about sharing things as you realize them. Less
chance for editing. It's also going to give him an interesting POV on his own
evolution and realizations.

------
zirok
These kinds of challenges are pointless. It's true that living on a food stamp
budget is hard, but it's not impossible. The real trouble begins when you
encounter unexpected costs. When you are living from hand to mouth you can't
plan ahead for whatever mishap might happen, be it illness, a car crash or
just about anything that might make your already tight budget nonexistent.

~~~
meowface
You're right, though he is showing that in fact it's hard to get a full and
balanced diet using just food stamps as an income. So he's contributing to
your point, even if he's not going through a full "challenge" of forcing
himself to spend no more than X amount in a month on bills/mainteinance/etc.
It's hard to properly emulate what it's truly like to live in poverty.

------
sc68cal
While reading this story, please keep this guide handy, which measures the
political donations that his company makes:

[http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000059478&cy...](http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000059478&cycle=A)

I should note that the latest Farm Bill attempted to decouple SNAP funds from
the agriculture parts of the bill, which historically was the only way to
protect SNAP benefits from being significantly slashed.

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/nadiaarumugam/2013/07/13/republi...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/nadiaarumugam/2013/07/13/republicans-
cut-food-stamps-from-farm-bill-whats-the-big-deal/)

So, while this is a commendable action on his part, there are individuals
inside his company funding candidates and a party that advocates elimination
of the entire program, because of supposed moochers and "young bucks" who go
and buy steaks, abusing the system. Perhaps he can lead by example and help
change some attitudes inside his company.

EDIT: The political donations are from individuals in the company, instead of
from a PAC the company controls. There are however, other organizations that
Panera may be a part of (The Chamber of Commerce comes to mind) that also have
poured a lot of money into Republican coffers.

~~~
jamesaguilar
Ten thousand dollars per year is negligible, especially since almost half of
it has gone to dems. They probably resisted the change you mentioned. If
there's any doubt that your comment is talking about a non-issue, it's also
worth mentioning that all those contributions are from _individuals_ , who he
is legally unable to influence.

This nit doesn't even qualify as microscopic. It'd be better if you just
skipped picking it.

Edit: re: your edit, why would you criticize them over organizations they
_may_ be a part of?

~~~
jlgreco
> _criticize them over organizations they may be a part of_

It is the classic HN desire to be contrarian reaching new lows.

~~~
jamesaguilar
If you can't tell someone why they're wrong, you can't win, right? That seems
to be the rule here, even when someone is doing something eminently sensible
and helpful like trying to see things from a different perspective (in
whatever limited way that might be possible).

------
jeffdavis
Traditionally, when I hear about eating cheaply, I think "rice and beans". So
I'm a little surprised to see those absent. Comments?

~~~
mortenjorck
Funny, I actually just had that for dinner tonight. Trader Joe's instant
jasmine rice, organic black beans, cherry tomatoes from the local farmers'
market. Surprisingly cheap, easy, and delicious.

I don't think a $30/week grocery budget is unreasonable at all, with a bit of
ingenuity (and, critically, proximity to the aforementioned vendors; food
deserts turn this whole thing on its head).

~~~
auctiontheory
The cherry tomatoes were cheap? You must not go the same farmer's markets that
I do.

On a per-calorie basis, almost all fresh fruits and vegetables are insanely
expensive - someone on $30/week could perhaps afford an occasional banana.

Recently my local Trader Joe's was selling onions at $1.09 (or was it $1.19?)
per onion. Per onion!

------
smsm42
This page:
[http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1269](http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1269)
outlines SNAP benefits which currently are $200 for single person, or $6.45
per day, or $45 a week. Why does it say $31.50 in the article?

Also, there are other food programs where he lives (assuming it's indeed
Boston):
[http://www.massresources.org/food.html](http://www.massresources.org/food.html)

------
carlob
Slightly off topic. I was once told panera always has to show a full stock of
every type of bread until closing hour. This means a large quantity of bread
gets discarded at the end of the day just because a half empty shelf looks
bad.

I was provided this information by a girl who volunteered at a soup kitchen.
She told me they often harvested this source of still perfectly good bread.

I never checked independently, so if anyone has any idea this is false please
let me know.

~~~
michaelt
If Panera's corporate website is to be believed, they've been donating unsold
goods since they were founded in 1988, most recently with their 'Day-End
Dough-Nation' program.

------
malkia
I've read this some time ago, and although I did not remembered all the
details - something stuck in me - that being poor is not something easily
emulated, or experimented.

Here is the article (don't know much about the guy that wrote it, political
orientation or so, but it's an eye opener) -

[http://blumenauer.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&tas...](http://blumenauer.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1495)

One thing that stuck with me was the "car" situation. I didn't drive a car
because of my choice (not money), i live in LA, but when our son was born I
had to take driving lessons. It kind went well for us, since we can go now to
Costco more often, than Whole Foods across the street. Also cutting down to
paying taxis, or waiting too much for the bus has a benefit (if only LA's
transit, or Santa Monica's one was a bit better).

------
motters
I assume that if things keep going the way that they have been in the last
five years then food stamps will also be coming to the UK. As I see it it's a
method used by politicians to prevent the poor from participating in the wider
economy, by ensuring that they may only have access to politically approved
resources.

~~~
repsilat
I take it you're in favour of "just give them cash" programs? That people
should be able to decide for themselves what to spend their money on? That's a
position I can respect (if not entirely agree with), but I wonder how
consistently you apply it.

What do you think about childcare subsidies? If a government gives poorer
parents a rebate or a discount (functionally identical to a voucher) on care
services or education, is this patronising because the government isn't
trusting them to spend the money wisely? Does this infringe upon their agency,
or cost them essential self-respect?

------
Cookingboy
Really respect him for what he tried to do, but there may be a flaw in the
logic behind competitions like this. He said with the 30 something dollars
budget he was forced to drop items like milk and coffee, but for many items
like that, they will last for more than a week (I certainly don't drink a
gallon of milk a week). So their cost is distributed over more than just one
week.

A more realistic challenge would be given a weekly budget but make the
challenge to last say.. a month or so. But for obvious reasons it won't be as
easy to pull off :)

~~~
gscott
Also when your poor you need to buy milk because cereal is cheap and filling.
I spent $91 this week for groceries for 3 people this week and it will last.
Cereal, 50% off meat, half off soups, and so on.

~~~
jlgreco
Eh, I prefer cereal dry, particularly grapenuts. All cereal with milk tastes
the same to me. A glass of water on the side takes care of dryness.

------
dnccrfctyq
If you really want to eat cheaply, I suspect the trick is to go to "ethnic"
groceries. I remember a reddit post about Paraguyuan meals that cost very
little, I would suspect Indian-style veggie meals would also be reasonably
cheap.

------
tomjen3
Many of the comments here are just to complain that this does not correctly
account for how poor people live and then basically give him shit for it.

Have you tried to live on SNAP when you don't have to? Though so, given the
guy a break.

------
dbg31415
A lot of poor are... blah blah blah.

Look, not saying it's easy to be poor.

Just saying the Panera CEO is doing this to raise awareness about the low
minimum wage. He's incapable of living as a poor person, of course he has
luxuries -- namely the knowledge of how to escape poverty.

Do we need a raise in the minimum wage? Sure, I guess. But more we need to
empower poor people with skills that build the confidence to get themselves
out of being poor.

------
phamilton
How much do people here spend on food each month?

I have a family of 4 and budget $500 for groceries and personal care item plus
$120 for eating out.

Please respond to this thread with your household size and budget.

For reference, max monthly SNAP allotment: Household of 1: $200 Household of
2: $367 Household of 3: $526 Household of 4: $668 Household of 5: $793
Household of 6: $952

------
ethana
I applied for it and got one of those EBT card. There's a food stamps office
right in the financial aid building on my uni campus. So I got it while
applying for financial aid. Fooze money:)

------
boomlinde
What a disgusting way to try to draw attention to your company.

------
rorrr2
Getting a minimum wage job would instantly up your budget from $31.50/week to
$320/week ($282.75 take home after taxes), and even more if you're willing to
work more than 40 hours.

If you are incapable of getting a minimum wage job, you are either lazy or
disabled or mentally ill. Heck, I know disabled people working for much more
than minimum wage.

~~~
thenomad
_" If you are incapable of getting a minimum wage job, you are either lazy or
disabled or mentally ill."_

I hate to say [[citation needed]], but I really think that if you're going to
make an absolute statement which completely dismisses a massive source of
suffering, you need to prove it in some convincing way.

 _" I know disabled people working for much more than minimum wage."_

...and therefore all people, disabled or not, can find minimum-wage work?

Logical fallacy.

~~~
rorrr2
Are you saying there are no jobs?

I just looked up op craigslist, and there are tons of postings for unskilled
jobs, such as delivery, servers, greeters, waiters, busboys, hosts, runners,
coat checkers, etc.

If you have any skills, there are even more options.

~~~
thenomad
No, I'm saying

 _" if you're going to make an absolute statement which completely dismisses a
massive source of suffering, you need to prove it in some convincing way."_

So far you have said

 _" I just looked up op craigslist, and there are tons of postings for
unskilled jobs"_

and

 _" I know disabled people working for much more than minimum wage."_

Neither of these anecdotes comes close to being proof, or even significant
evidence, that

 _" If you are incapable of getting a minimum wage job, you are either lazy or
disabled or mentally ill."_

