
Kid Crazy: Why We Exaggerate the Joys of Parenthood - pavel
http://healthland.time.com/2011/03/04/why-having-kids-is-foolish/
======
cookiecaper
Pretty silly all around. The main thesis here seems to be "raising children
costs money and is sometimes frustrating, and it is therefore illogical and
foolish". When parents say that even though children are raised at significant
emotional and financial expense, they are great and awesome, researchers write
it off as "illogical" or stupid, and hold up the study as evidence of human
irrationality and stupidity, with the implication that smart people wouldn't
want children after seeing they cost money. I don't know whether the study
really makes the conclusions the article claims, but the article at least is
ridiculous in its supposition.

If you only care about money, having children is obviously not smart, as
children generally cost money and don't produce it, even later in life. If you
care about a fulfilling life more than a filled bank account, then raising
children is one of the most important activities a person can do.

~~~
alxp
The economists' models of the world are notoriously flawed and dangerous
precisely because they leave out non-easily-measurable results and
consequences.

~~~
CWuestefeld
I couldn't disagree more. It's normal human judgment reactions that are
notoriously flawed. For example, the USA's absurd over-reaction to terrorist
attacks is something that any economist can tell you is stupid.

Modern statistical tools allow economists to ferret out the most obscure
factors. They're remarkably good at this, although not infallible -- our
continued poor understanding of macro issues is a glaring example, but the
topics being discussed here are decidedly micro.

I think the real answer to your comment is that economic models are
(frequently) far more pointed than people like to admit. When they're forced
to confront the fact that their observed behavior doesn't match what they
espouse, they prefer to shoot the messenger rather than admit that they're not
practicing what they preach.

~~~
kenjackson
_Modern statistical tools allow economists to ferret out the most obscure
factors._

Did you read the article? It doesn't ferret out any obscure factors? It has
people read an article and then make some statement. And even then it doesn't
even compare against those who don't have kids, but wanted kids or a whole
slew of other useful controls.

But more importantly read the headline to the article, "Does having kids make
parents delusional" -- yet NONE of the tests were about that. The tests were
"Does Pointing out the Benefits of Parenting Reduce Its Perceived Benefit".
That's a totally different story.

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ekanes
I agree that kids might reduce your short-term happiness. You're sleep
deprived, they're expensive, and damn do they make some noise...

On the other hand I've never had so many feelings of deep _satisfaction_ as
with my kids. It all depends on how you define happiness.

Happiness = easier life, more money, more sleep.

... or you could say

Happiness = building, nurturing, giving, sacrifice.

Both are true and valid, and neither needs to be judged. I just want to point
out that the decision to have kids isn't necessarily about rational happiness-
maximizing choice.

#3 is due in April, wish me luck!

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zck
>Couples who choose not to have kids also have better, more satisfying
marriages than couples who have kids.

Well, of course, given that some couples have kids by accident. If you agree
to wait on having kids for five years, then -- whoops! -- pregnancy, that
would have a bad effect on satisfaction. Also there's the fact that couples
who choose not to have kids have thought about and discussed their opinions on
children. Couples who do that are likely to communicate better -- another
reason they'd be more satisfied. I looked at the cited study, but could only
read the first page. I didn't see anything saying they did anything to address
this. Of course, I didn't see anything saying they didn't.

~~~
kenjackson
Additionally he doesn't apply the same rationale here. Maybe couples w/o kids
report more satisfying marriages, because they need to rationalize it more
since they didn't have kids.

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zaidf
May be its a cultural thing. I know a few couples in India with no kids and
more they age, more their life self-admittedly sucks.

Then again, the culture I grew up in sees kids as an investment. The
investment pays off when kids grow up and help their parents retire and
support them financially and otherwise.

~~~
ryandvm
Wow. I'd never considered having kids as a retirement plan. I shudder at the
thought of a prospective parent that is considering it from that angle.

~~~
zaidf
What's so wrong about it?

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jimbokun
How do you even respond to an article like this?

"Yes, I am very satisfied with my decision to become a parent. My children add
a lot of stresses to my life, but the deep satisfaction of seeing them grow
and mature, laugh and play and cry, is more than worth it."

"No, you're not, actually. I have scientific studies showing that you are
actually very unhappy and unsatisfied."

"..."

Don't we each, as individuals, get to decide whether we are happy, joyful,
satisfied with our lives? Is not the right to define what happiness means to
us inherent in our rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"?

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juiceandjuice
Obviously someone who looks like this wrote an article like this from a
neutral viewpoint:

<http://en.gravatar.com/thejohncloud>

He should have just said "Don't have kids because you can't take them into a
martini bar"

~~~
jat850
That's the best rebuttal you can offer?

~~~
Helianthus16
I dunno, I think it's kinda funny. It's the sort of jab that points out that
the kind of person who bluntly asserts raising kids is stupid is happier
boozing at status joints and pursuing endless 'city glamor'.

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lotides
Kids aren't for everyone. For that matter, neither are marriage, startups or
traveling. The only difference with kids is there is no "undo" and you can't
quit. If you don't want to live a selfless lifestyle, don't have kids.

My son just turned 18 months and my wife and I couldn't be happier. We won't
be able to buy the new iPad but my son is far more entertaining. And I feel
like my wife and I have grown closer since having him. So, to each their own.
It's laziness to pretend life is as black-and-white at the writer presents.

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petervandijck
Life itself is foolish. Still worth doing though.

~~~
ngvrnd
Well put.

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rodp
My baby boy was born 3 weeks ago and the moment I first saw him was truly the
happiest one I've ever experienced. I would waste letters trying to describe
it but let me tell you: I could own 3 Googles and 2 Apples and I still
wouldn't be as happy as I was in that moment. No amount of comfort can buy
such happiness.

Having a kid means experiencing both emotional highs and lows but the former
certainly outweigh the latter. If you could -- and you can't -- compare this
to business, then not having kids would be like spending the rest of your days
in a secure, well-paid, boring, lifeless, 9-to-5 job.

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damoncali
This article is pure nonsense. So you can influence the results of surveys by
asking people to read something before taking it?

Thank you, captain obvious.

PS having kids is challenging, expensive and fantastic. Sort of like a
startup, but not really.

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radioactive21
Interesting piece, but overall, I want to see hard data about family make up.
Ideally you would have surveys and learn more about the couple's state of
minds before, during (pregnancy stage) and after having a kid.

Just from my observation, I don't have facts, just opinion, but couples who
wanted to have kids will be the first to tell you they love it. Couples that
had kids by accident are either not happy, happy, or indifferent. The last
category are couples where one of the two wanted kids and the other didn't so
overall, there was dissatisfaction.

To me it seems to be all about expectation and reality.

~~~
tomkarlo
There's ownership bias at work, as well. Regardless of the value of something,
if you feel that it's the result of your "work", you feel more positive about
its value than if it's just "given" to you.

Buy something from Ikea and put it together, and you'll feel better about it
than if you bought it already put together for the same price. It's totally
irrational, but it's also true.

~~~
jimbokun
"It's totally irrational"

It is totally rational.

What a boring, pathetic, self indulgent existence to never participate in
creating something of value. Even screwing some legs on to a table adds a tiny
little bit of value to the world around you.

~~~
tomkarlo
"What a boring, pathetic, self indulgent existence to never participate in
creating something of value."

Please don't make broad value judgements about other people's existence and
value systems, based on a single HN comment. Thanks.

It's only "rational" to place more value on the final result if it is
objectively of higher quality than the alternative where someone else makes
it. Hence my original comment. I made no comment about any side-effect
benefits from doing it yourself.

------
va_coder
The most valuable startup you can give to the world is well raised child

~~~
brosephius
no, it's not. facebook, love it or hate it, has contributed more value to the
world than the average well raised child. then again, some might say it's
easier to raise a child well than to start another facebook :P

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VaedaStrike
One of the interesting dilemas with the whole idea of "invest in future care
instead of kids" is the question of whom you'll be purchasing that care from?
And at what price?

If society collectively gets more 'rational' (as per the author's'view of
rational) then the cost of end of life care, due to a massive supply drop off
since fewer people having had workers/babies, would quickly eclipse even the
most ausiduous of saver's life savings.

And who's'the only one that would take care of you at a price below the
running market price for the service you need? One of your offspring?

When stuck in the myopic world of dollars and cents caution is advised, lest
you end up in a world. Where you are only seen yourself in terms of dollars
and cents

------
igrekel
On at least two occasion I was speaking with people relatively old, one who
was close to dying, and one thing they said they were sad about was not having
kids.

How you feel or how happy you are in the moment is unrelated on what your
future self will think is important.

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impendia
I suspect that one could show, by the same methodology, that each of the
following is foolish: buying a house; going to graduate school; starting a
business; mastering something difficult; volunteering; being active in the
community; ...

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kschua
"It's cheaper to hire end-of-life care than to raise a child" Maybe the
reporter should tell that to this lady
[http://www.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne%2BNews/Singapore/Story/A...](http://www.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne%2BNews/Singapore/Story/A1Story20110308-267088.html)
reported today Mar 8

In a nutshell, she looked after this autistic child who was abandoned by his
parents at 3 and is now 13, and was quoted as saying "I don't expect him to
take care of me in the future. I just hope he can take care of himself"

------
AndrewDucker
A recent study actually found that while younger parents were less happy than
the childless, older parents were happier than older childless people:
[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110307065539.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110307065539.htm)

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frooxie
What the Eibach and Mock studies show is that if someone criticizes something
you have a lot invested in, like having kids, you will get defensive and
exaggerate the upsides. That doesn't say anything about whether having kids is
foolish - maybe the upsides really DO outweigh the downsides.

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maratd
From an evolutionary-biology perspective, the author is simply competing. If
he convinces you not to procreate, his children will have less competition to
worry about. He's probably not even self-aware to the point where he realizes
what he's doing. Lame.

~~~
prodigal_erik
Only true if the author has kids. He doesn't seem to. Do you think he's a
crypto-parent?

~~~
maratd
Nothing is stopping him from having a revelation that he's totally wrong a few
years down the road and pop out a kid. I doubt he thinks that far ahead
though. Probably just likes knocking up random women.

------
hollerith
Stopped reading because I promised myself I would never let Time and other
"mass circulation" magazines teach me new scientific arguments or concepts now
that superior resources are so convenient.

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ChuckMcM
I agree with this article's central theme. People who don't grasp the basic
concepts of economics or parenting should not have kids, its not fair to the
economy and its not fair to the kids.

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maeon3
I can't imagine how people with kids get jobs. I suspect there is a double
standard, if you have no kids, we are going to give you 3 or 4 rounds of
interview hazing, but if you have 2 or 3 kids then the bar for entry is much
lower because he can't be expected to work like a single male with almost no
social life.

~~~
gerner
That's an interesting thought, but do you have evidence supporting this?

Another interesting tidbit about society favoring families with children is
the tax implication. In particular, you can claim kids as dependents (which,
of course, they are), but claiming dependents gets you tax breaks (and other
tax credits).

I'm not saying that's wrong :)

It would be interesting to look at all the tax credits and build the profile
for the "optimal" family from a (US) society perspective (as expressed in tax
advantages). Then compare that to other countries. This could make a sweet
info graphic...

~~~
jimbokun
On the other hand, my kids' taxes are almost certainly going to also be paying
for the retirement of those people who chose to not have kids.

