
Jony Ive to form independent design company with Apple as client - briandear
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/06/jony-ive-to-form-independent-design-company-with-apple-as-client/
======
m12k
I feel like the Apple we've seen since Jobs died is exactly what I would have
expected if someone let the designers run the show without a strong product
manager to reign them in: Gorgeous and mostly user-friendly products, but
slightly too caught up in their own cleverness instead of the actual needs of
real users.

I hope there's a chance to rectify that now - though I fear it won't happen
until someone more visionary and less 'operations-focused' takes the helm of
the company. Steve Blank did this excellent analysis and comparison between
Balmer and Cook [0] - I hope there's a Satya Nadella in Apple's future too.

[0] [https://steveblank.com/2016/10/24/why-tim-cook-is-steve-
ball...](https://steveblank.com/2016/10/24/why-tim-cook-is-steve-ballmer-and-
why-he-still-has-his-job-at-apple/)

~~~
app-pole
Apple has very skilled engineers, makes great strides in security, and I'm
impressed by their hardware skills.

However, UX _is_ their weakness. I don't know why we keep pretending that UX
is Apple's strength. Have you used their window manager? Have you used their
workspace implementation? Clearly they haven't used it themselves. Everything
about the Mac UI is geared toward just having a pile of windows in one
workspace.

Their window switcher by default requires switching between applications then
switching between the windows of that application. Why?

Rearranging the contents of workspaces is a complicated dance of swipes and
drags and other mouse-heavy movements. On a decent window manager, this can
all be done with keyboard shortcuts.

They neglect power-users. They neglect usability for those with limited range
of motion.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
I like how Window management works in macOS more than the other platforms! The
touchpad gestures are great. Or, if you're using a mouse with extra buttons,
one of the side buttons can get mapped to Mission Control, which works
wonderfully!

I did prefer App Exposé in Snow Leopard, but ah well...

~~~
noobiemcfoob
"the other platforms" leads me to suspect you haven't tried many other window
managers. Linux has too many to name.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
I mean, I'm certainly not a Linux expert, but I've played with it before. I've
used Gnome, Pantheon (elemenataryOS), and i3wm.

Not a fan of tiling window managers, personally.

------
valine
With the iPhone X Apple put serious R&D into a display that folds back on
itself for the sole reason that a phone is more ascetically pleasing when the
boarders are symmetrical. Even after a year and a half every phone except the
iPhone has an asymmetrical chin. Will Apple still be able to make decisions
like that without Ive in a leadership position? For Apple's sake I really hope
so.

~~~
fnord77
given their recent focus on being a services/media company, it wouldn't
surprise me if they moved out of hardware entirely at some point in the
future.

~~~
enneff
They became the most valuable company in the world by selling hardware. What
on earth would possess them to get out of that incredibly lucrative market in
which they have an unparalleled privileged position??

------
webbrahmin
I used to love my mac book pro. Sadly, it is not the same device which it used
to be. The quest to make it thinner has actually made it a substandard
machine. I feel Apple has lost a lot of developer love and brand capital since
Jobs. I am hoping things would improve on the product front. Not all devs live
in the US. For devs in developing countries, a mac book pro is a serious
investment. We want a machine which is robust and long-lasting. If things
continue they way they have in last few years my next machine will not be a
mac book.

~~~
bayareanative
Everyone should watch the Louis Rossmann channel before lionizing, much less
even saying anything good about modern MBP's they don't seem to understand
what's been lost and what sucks. It's not been a long-lasting product for at
least 5 years:

\- the batteries are glued in, making them very difficult to change

\- there's no locking slot

\- GPU goes out

\- the unencapsulated (motherboard) is very susceptible to any humidity, which
leads to corrosion

\- the JTAG shorts out traces

\- the keyboards are crap: noisy, fragile and have to be ripped out violently
with pliers

\- display cable goes out

\- no availability of official replacement parts

\- no official component-level repair leading to unnecessary e-waste and
unnecessary charges

\- no longer has MagSafe

\- thin, bendable and fragile

\- extremely overpriced

\- overcharged for repairs

\- denied data recovery when it's possible

\- community of unrealistic, brainwashed, tribalist fans who lack perspective
and criticism

I have a Lenovo T480 which is 10x better than a T490. Snag one while you can,
because it's totally ruined in the name of drinking Johnny's brand of
Jonestown KoolAid.

~~~
foldr
>community of unrealistic, brainwashed, tribalist fans who lack perspective
and criticism

Shrug. I prefer MacBooks because the trackpads are better, and trackpad
usability is more important to me than the other stuff.

~~~
Tepix
When was the last time you tried the trackpads on different brand notebooks?
They've gotten better. For me the Dell XPS 13 9350's trackpad was good enough
that getting all the goodies (USB A _and_ USB C, a repair guide, changeable
standard M.2 SSD, SD slot, non crappy keyboard, a lot cheaper) compared to the
MacBook Pro made me switch to the Dell notebook.

~~~
zapzupnz
It doesn't matter how good the other trackpads are if they don't have the
software driving it. Even with Microsoft standardising the trackpad interface
for drivers in Windows 10, that doesn't matter when plenty of non-Metro
applications don't support multi-touch gestures or, if they do,
inconsistently.

The MacBook story isn't components. When people compare a MacBook to a PC
laptop, that's about where the comparison ends. Nobody wants to admit that the
marriage of hardware and software _does_ make a difference; this denial always
comes from people who don't know what that difference is or never bothered to
appreciate it and thus can't understand why others do.

------
anbop
The new headquarters syndrome strikes again. Ive, sidelined, went eyeballs
deep into the new headquarters, alongside a decline in physical product
quality like the trashcan design miss and keyboard gremlins. Hardware and
software teams kept executing but there’s clearly a need for a change in
design.

~~~
TheOperator
Apples design has been a big yawner for a few years now. Apple watch and MBPr
impressed me. Since then? Seems like the design had actively getting worse
since 2015 I.E. MBP with touchbar.

The Mac Pro and Apples new display don't look terrible to me but the cheese
grater aesthetics aren't amazing either and it's a bit of a rehash of the
Powermac G5. There was also that charger they cancelled.

Maybe apple should consider going back to their playful aesthetic? Aluminum
and glass is just so... _Yawn_

~~~
mulderc
I have been looking at some of the past plastic devices and actually really
love the design and feel. Wonder if they should try that again.

~~~
_ph_
I still have my G5 iMac in a corner and its design is just wonderful. The
acrylic housing with a white interior holds up just great. It also was
possible to open it with a screwdriver or even a penny.

~~~
rusk
I liked this. It looked like a toy but it had pretty serious internals. Kind
of the opposite of how things are now ...

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
Unpopular view - Jobs kept Ive focussed. Jobs, for all his many faults, had
very, very good taste, and also had a user's-eye view of design.

Ives seems to have a designer's eye view on design. Without Jobs to keep him
on track he started designing for posterity and for design magazine pictorials
- not for customers.

The classic designs - blue iMac, iPod, iPhone, laptops, possibly the initial
MacPro sketches - all happened under Jobs when Apple was trying to expand its
share of the mass market.

The failures - gradient tint flat UI in iOS 7, butterfly keyboard,
disappearing ports, end of MagSafe, HQ glass wall injuries, etc - are all
failures of form over function and happened after Jobs died.

There's some overlap - Anglepoise iMac, some of the special editions, puck
mouse, that plastic clamshell laptop - but the hit rate under Jobs was far
higher.

~~~
TheOperator
Lmao disappearing ports didn't start after Jobs died. Jobs had a vandetta
against ports.

~~~
rusk
Bullshit. Jobs had no vendetta against ports. Macs and macbook pro back in
those days had all the ports.

~~~
TheOperator
The man launched the Macbook Air with ONE port. He had to be convinced that it
needed 2 ports.

~~~
rusk
That was the air. It was a concept design.

------
jedberg
Given his penchant for thinness over function, I hope this means we can have a
thicker pro laptop again, with all the ports back and a more robust keyboard.

~~~
mstade
It’d be interesting to see the results of a survey on this I think, I and I
know many of my peers are of the exact opposite opinion. I like the move to
usb-c, I like the new keyboard, I don’t mind (but also don’t really use) the
Touch Bar but I can’t live without Touch ID at this point. The big trackpad is
magical to me, and the thickness and weight of the 13” is just right. I have
an older MBP as well, 2013 maybe, and it’s lovely too but it feels like an old
truck next to my sleek sports car that is my 2016 MBP.

I for one would be sad if they went back on some of the supposedly bold moves
they’ve pulled, to be honest. The only thing I wish is that they’d kill that
silly lightning connector for the phones so I could have usb-c goodness there
too!

I guess that’s just design for ya – it’s often divisive, especially if
decisive.

~~~
jedberg
Nothing wrong with USB-C and the big trackpad is fine too, and I would love to
have touchID on my 2015MBP. But getting rid of mag power and the USB-A ports,
HDMI port, and SD card slot was a big step back.

Maybe you don't ever need to present anything from your laptop, but if you
talk to anyone who does, they will tell you how awful it is to not have an
HDMI port. The USB-C to HDMI is the worst adapter I've ever seen.

And if you're a semi-pro photographer, the lack of an SD card slot is
terrible. And of course almost all accessories are still USB-A.

~~~
bradknowles
So, on the power side of the equation, I have come to understand why they
chose to go the direction they did.

With the previous generation of MagSafe/MagSafe II power supplies, if the
cable gets frayed, you have to replace the entire power supply. If the MagSafe
connector gets hosed, you have to replace the entire power supply. Basically,
if anything goes wrong beyond the AC input side, you have to replace the whole
power supply. I ended up buying a whole bunch of these things over the years,
so I am particularly sensitive to the amount of money I've spent.

With the USB-C power supplies, if something goes wrong with the cable, you
just get a new cable. If something goes wrong with the connector on the cable,
you just get a new cable. The only time you need to replace the entire power
supply itself is if something goes wrong internally, or if something goes
wrong with the USB-C connector on the power supply. And since cables are
engineered to break before cable connectors, that is much less likely.

Don't get me wrong, the MagSafe connector has saved my machine on several
occasions. But I understand why they want to be able to cheaply and easily
replace just the cable part, because that's the part that is most likely to
have hardware failures.

I do wish they had figured out some way to have a standardized cable interface
on the power supply itself, and a MagSafe-like connector on the other end.
That would have been the best of both worlds. But failing that, I think I will
grudgingly take the second-best solution, which is to have a standard USB-C
connector on both ends.

Now, this whole concept of mixing USB-C, USB-C Power Delivery, and Thunderbolt
3, that's a whole 'nother Gordian Knot that I really wish they had not
created.

~~~
nutjob2
I always hated the MagSafe connectors because I almost always used my laptop
with the power connected but not on a table or other hard surface (eg a bed),
and it would invariably fall off constantly.

~~~
ridgeguy
I had this problem too on my 2015 MPB, when Apple went from Magsafe 1 to
Magsafe 2, which was (vertically) thinner. The Magsafe 2 easily disconnected
when there was even a little vertical torque.

I bought a Snuglet, a thin metal shell that inserts into the Magsafe recess on
the MBP. It reduces vertical and horizontal clearance between the Magsafe
connector halves. In my case, this has completely eliminated unwanted
disconnects.

Disclaimer: no connection with Snuglet or NewerTech, just have found the
product useful as advertised.

------
dharmon
I, even (especially?) as a long-time Apple fanboy, am looking forward to some
fresh design blood in the Apple ecosystem.

AAPL is down about 1%. So I guess the market values Ive at around $9B? :P

~~~
liamcardenas
Well they aren’t losing 100% of him since they are still able to retain his
services. If this price movement was due to his departure it would indicate he
has an even higher valuation.

~~~
dv_dt
The question in my mind is not are they losing 100% of him, it's if this an
involuntary soft retirement from Apple for Ives.

~~~
sprafa
As much as we can man-myth the man, he’s got one of the best design teams on
the planet around him. Unless they all leave (and even if they do, they could
replace them all with the second best design team in the world quickly as all
industrial designers would jump to work at Apple) I don’t see how this could
anywhere but up.

Remember it was rumoured Ive who insisted in the super luxury version of the
Apple Watch, and they had to drop it because it was so absurd. He also bought
a Bentley around the same time. I just got a feeling without Steve to ground
him, his posh Englishness might have led him astray.

------
jkw
He’s making more money at Apple than he will leading his own design agency.

This makes me think that he no longer finds his work compelling at Apple. Or
Apple decided it’s time for a new leader, but wants things to have a soft
landing.

~~~
thinkling
Since he was the Chief Design Officer at Apple, responsible for all design, I
imagine his role came with a lot of management overhead. I'd wager a guess
that maybe he wanted to ditch the corporate overhead (and spend more time
directly working on design), and as a bonus he'll get to take on a wider range
of projects. Also possible that he wanted to go back to the UK and that his
firm will be located there.

~~~
sprafa
From Daring Fireball speculation his move to Chief Design Officer was already
a move for him to be distanced from day to day design. Sort of a soft firing
already, but by moving him up.

------
ndiscussion
"It’s not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works." \-
Steve Jobs

I have loved most of Ive's designs, but it's clear to me that he needs a
bouncer to keep him in check. RIP.

------
trustfundbaby
I think this is good for Apple, I found that I was not impressed or excited
about his work after Steve Jobs wasn't there to help him refine his instincts
any longer.

Everything he did after that just seemed ... uninspired.

------
mrkstu
Hopefully this signals the end of the designers tyranny at Apple.

While physical design has been of paramount importance in Apple's rise to the
top, it has been more and more detrimental as Jony and his group wandered into
worshipping at the altar of luxury and Platonic idealism.

When combined with /not/ ignoring other than luxury market segments and
usability that was fine. But when Jony's star was completely ascendant
everything else was sacrificed at that altar (see butterfly keyboard, single
port MacBook, escape key-less touch bars, no 32 GB MacBook Pros since that
would require non-power-sipping RAM.)

I could have lived with this if the design of the software hadn't also
suffered in conjunction with the hardware. Jony was given responsibility for
UX and it also started prioritizing abstract design principles over actual
usability with extremely low contrast UI elements and other poor choices.

As we saw those points being walked back and Apple being responsive to the
complaints, I've been wondering if Craig Federighi's star was rising and if
Jony's was dimming, since I doubt he was a willing participant in the
diminution of his artistic choices. Seeing the extreme effort he was putting
into charity[0] and the spaceship campus, instead of his actual
responsibilities, it all combined to me that he needed to either get re-
focused by the CEO or get a new job.

[0] [https://www.dezeen.com/2018/11/16/jony-ive-diamond-ring-
marc...](https://www.dezeen.com/2018/11/16/jony-ive-diamond-ring-marc-newson-
red-auction/) [https://petapixel.com/2013/11/24/one-kind-jony-ive-red-
leica...](https://petapixel.com/2013/11/24/one-kind-jony-ive-red-leica-m-
sells-whopping-1-8m-charity-auction/) [https://www.businessinsider.com/jony-
ive-bono-sothebys-chari...](https://www.businessinsider.com/jony-ive-bono-
sothebys-charity-auction-2013-9)
[https://www.fastcompany.com/3019896/designed-by-
friendship-j...](https://www.fastcompany.com/3019896/designed-by-friendship-
jony-ive-and-marc-newsons-15-ton-desk)

~~~
atombender
I don't like that phrase, "tyranny of design". It implies design is just one
side of a product. But design is _everything_. It is both form _and_ function.
A product that has great visual design is still a failure if the functional
design is bad. A great designer is holistic and will be able to bring form and
function into harmony..

While I don't have the inside scoop on how Jonathan Ive works, my impression
is that he's good taste and excels at pushing the edge in materials and
manufacturing processes -- he pioneered the aluminium unibody, for example --
and is probably a good leader. But he is not a great or original designer.
Apple's recent history is littered with mistakes and poor design decisions,
functional and aesthetic both, as well as a lot of unoriginal, boring visual
design. There's obviously a lot of pressure at Apple, and they don't make
anything easy for themselves, but that's not enough of an excuse to explain
everything.

To me, the most audacious design decision in recent years was the iPhone X's
removal of the home button in favour of a purely gesture-based UI combined
with Face ID. That's great design that just worked.

~~~
sytelus
The iPhone has one of the most slippery surfaces of almost all objects I own.
It looks great in photos and ad videos but completely incompatible to the goal
of safely holding it in the human hand. Things have became so bad with iPhone
XS that I have never seen anyone using it without some ugly sleeve. If anyone
has dared not using case/sleeve, they would experience heart wrenching drop
out of hand within their first week of use.

Do you think this is good design? Why do you think this would happen at
design-first company like Apple?

~~~
azernik
It's a bad design feature that is sadly common across premium smartphone
brands - e.g. the Pixel 3 is also quite hard to grasp. One thing where I think
lower-end phone design tends to be better, a function of their lower priority
on aesthetics.

~~~
mantap
It's the fault of wireless charging. Premium phones used to have metal backs,
but that is incompatible with wireless charging so we are cursed with glass
for eternity now.

~~~
azernik
You could also go with assorted plastics, and they haven't tried that.

------
atonse
I have to imagine that he's going to have the biggest non-solicitation clause
ever in history.

He's partnering with Marc Newsom and others... who he's collaborated with
heavily in the past for Apple Watch (and other one-off auction products, etc).

Jony's got to be tired of designing with the Apple aesthetic after all this
time, and maybe wants to design a car or toaster again.

~~~
wmf
Jony Ive defines the Apple aesthetic and he has already changed it multiple
times (bondi blue, white plastic, aluminum & glass) so he could change it
again if he wants.

~~~
atonse
Yes but they'd still be computers, with computer-use-case constraints.

------
abakker
Genuine question: Who cares? I love design, and I love the engineering Apple
has done, but, I've got to believe that Apple keep their aesthetic without
keeping the same exact people. I think I would count this as a win for Apple -
an opportunity to change the guard and give permission for some new designers
to give a critical eye to the products they make. I would love to see them
take maybe 1 or 2 steps back from minimalism.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
It's not minimalism, it's poor minimalism.

IMO Watch is just plain unattractive as a design object. Tinkering with the
crown colour or the strap choices hasn't changed that. I keep waiting for it
to be refined, so far not.

I'm also not sold on the new(ish) font and flat UI style. They work, more or
less, but there's something very bland about them.

The big hits were game changers and were anything but bland - the original
Bondi Blue iMac, the MBP aesthetic, the Macbooks including the Air, and the
iPhone.

Good design integrates form without breaking function, and that hasn't been
the case with the not-really-working keyboards, the touchbar, the bottom
charge port on the Magic Mouse, the death of the headphone jack, the end of
MagSafe, the missing ports on too many laptop models, and others.

I don't know which of those Ive was responsible for. I suppose we'll find out
over the next few years.

~~~
abakker
I tend to agree with you - at some point the whole "take everything away that
you can do without" became "do without". my MacBook pro is great, but I would
love more ports. I don't care as much about weight, I'd happily do with more
battery, and more keyboard travel.

Generally, when I think of "Pro" I'm thinking of _more_ features, not just the
same features but more powerful. I would think that pros actually have
different needs, and that their tools would have different functions to suit.

As you said, we'll see.

~~~
leadingthenet
> I would think that pros actually have different needs, and that their tools
> would have different functions to suit.

I would argue that the new Mac Pro is definitely a step in that direction.

------
allenleein
Ben Thompson wrote an article[1] about this problem in 2015 after Ive just got
"promoted".

From the article:

In my estimation, whether Ive intends it or not — and I think he likely does,
for what it’s worth — this is the beginning of the end of his time at Apple.
To give up “management” in exchange for “thinking freely” is, when it comes to
business, akin to shifting from product-focused R&D to exploratory R&D. Steve
Jobs was very clear on the consequences of that approach:

"One of the things I’ve always found is that you’ve got to start with the
customer experience and work backwards to the technology. You can’t start with
the technology and try to figure out where you’re going to try to sell it. And
I’ve made this mistake probably more than anybody else in this room. And I got
the scar tissue to prove it."

I found this quote/clip in this excellent Gruber piece, Working Backwards to
the Technology; the analogy I’m trying to draw is that just as the best way to
ensure that great technologies make it to market is to start with the product
and work backwards, inventing along the way, the best way to lead an
organization’s design direction is to lead the organization, and that means
managing. And that is what Ive is giving up.

[1]: "Jony Ive “Promoted”, The Implications of Not Managing, What About
Apple?"

[https://stratechery.com/2015/jony-ive-promoted-the-
implicati...](https://stratechery.com/2015/jony-ive-promoted-the-implications-
of-not-managing-what-about-apple/)

------
pier25
His work is great aesthetically but I'm guessing there has been some conflict
at Apple for him to leave.

I wouldn't be surprised if all the latest Apple problems originated from
engineering constraints imposed by his decisions. From the trashcan Mac Pro to
the butterfly keyboard.

~~~
musicale
This is an interesting hypothesis. It is reminiscent of Steve Jobs' insistence
on his carved wood Apple /// design (which the motherboard didn't fit into) or
that the original Macintosh must not have a fan (because computers with fans
were junk.)

Both designs contributed to reliability problems (multiple boards/ribbon
cable/flexing/loose DRAM chips on the Apple ///, failed analog boards on the
Mac.)

------
CountSessine
I haven’t forgiven this guy for the latest “thin at any cost” 4th gen MacBook
Pro we’ve had since 2016. He ruined the best programer’s laptop on the market.

Maybe with him and his ego gone, they can fix the next generation and salvage
the product line.

~~~
fumar
I travel frequently for work. I like having a pro machine that is light and
thin. I am okay with compromises, but understand that the target audience
feels differently. I believe my Macbook Pro goes more places than before due
to the compactness. That includes using python, photo, design, and general
office work.

~~~
amluto
Do you actually need the thin part or just the light part? I used to amuse
people by demonstrating that my not-at-all-sexy ThinkPad weighed less than the
original MacBook Air despite being a lot thicker and more powerful.

The recent iPhones in particular bother me. What’s the point of being mostly
thin if the camera lens sticks out and snags on things?

~~~
fumar
Yes, I find the thinner the device the easier it is to pack. I should say
overall volume. If I can travel for 1-2 days with a simple backpack, that is
best case scenario. I keep trying to go 100% iPad Pro but its not quite there
yet. I have taken plenty of day trips with just my macbook pro, no case or
sleeve.

~~~
andybak
I've got a thin and light Mac that still has the ports.

------
doomlaser
The Financial Times has an interview with him about this
[https://www.ft.com/content/0b20032e-98cf-11e9-8cfb-30c211dcd...](https://www.ft.com/content/0b20032e-98cf-11e9-8cfb-30c211dcd229)

~~~
neonate
[http://archive.is/OXMxJ](http://archive.is/OXMxJ)

------
dependsontheq
The most important designer of the 21st century so far, he was responsible for
the most successful product of all time and a design aesthetic that reshaped
the whole industry. I find it hard to judge individual features and products,
because who knows how or why specific decisions were made. An amazing legacy,
I really look forward to an autobiography, it will probably the closest we
will ever get to the Ives/Jobs team.

~~~
rubee64
Personally I've cringed at every design decision he's brought about since iOS
7 and the flat design push. Skeuomorphism was perfect, and virtually every
Apple product has been dragged down since then.

~~~
brandonmenc
Thank you for saying this. After their switch to the ultra flat design, I'm
still unsure where the buttons are. It's ridiculous.

------
interlocutor
Apple used to be known for their amazing designs. That was when Steve was
running the company. Since his death Apple has been in a free fall in the
design space. Most of the comments here seem to be about their awful hardware
design. Yes, the thin macbook is not very usable, and the Homepod which is
shaped like an amorphous blob is uglier than any Bose speaker. But what about
their software? Their UI design is super unusable too. (See some specific
examples here [https://uxcritique.tumblr.com/](https://uxcritique.tumblr.com/)
) Flat design is a usability disaster; see studies from Nielsen Norman group
and others [https://www.nngroup.com/articles/flat-design-long-
exposure/](https://www.nngroup.com/articles/flat-design-long-exposure/)

I am glad Ive is gone. Maybe Apple can now recover.

~~~
panopticon
That seems pretty hyperbolic, especially considering that Nielsen says flat
designs are on the right track. To quote, "Early pseudo-3D GUIs and Steve-
Jobs-esque skeuomorphism often produced heavy, clunky interfaces. Scaling back
from those excesses is good for usability. But removing visual distinctions to
produce fully flat designs with no signifiers can be an equally bad extreme.
Flat 2.0 provides an opportunity for compromise — visual simplicity without
sacrificing signifiers."

And that Tumblr blog appears equally hyperbolic. There are some clear UI/UX
mistakes in there, but the blog is conveniently ignoring how visually noisy
those pre-Yosmite GUI elements are in-context by providing oddly cropped
screenshots to make a point.

~~~
UIZealot
The biggest ding they could come up with against skeuomorphism is "heavy,
clunky"?

Skeuomorphic UIs maybe "heavy" and "clunky", but they were also beautiful,
whimsical, and _fun_! They brought me joy each time I use them. Flat design,
in contrast, is soulless and depressing.

God I miss the Steve Jobs era! Apple could've been the beacon of light amongst
darkness, like it used to be. But his death, and the subsequent betrayal of
his trust by Jony Ive, condemned the entire world to soulless and depressing
UIs. And there's no end in sight.

~~~
SebastianKra
If you think Flat design can't be fun, then I encourage you to look at the
entire iPad gesture system [1]. I feel like Iron Man when using it.

Also, the Apple Books app [2] isn't purely flat, but it shows that flat Design
can have just as much character.

[1] Multitasking, Drag and Drop, Text Selection, Control Center, Cut Copy
Paste Undo. [2] [https://www.apple.com/apple-
books/](https://www.apple.com/apple-books/)

~~~
UIZealot
I'll concede that skeuomorphism, at its worst, can be heavy and clunky; while
flat design, at its best, can also be fun.

------
bborud
Just like evolution requires selection to work, good design requires an good
filter. I think Jobs was the filter that made Jony Ive good. Without filter
Ive appears to be just another unbridled ego not quite able to retain focus on
what is important.

I hope this means Apple will hire designers more respectful of utility for the
MBP and iMac lines and start catering to professionals. And then Ive can focus
on making insanely expensive to manufacture halo products with CNC’ed cheese
graters.

------
musicale
Besides the eMate 300, iMac "hockey puck" mouse, and G4 Cube, don't forget
Apple's 20th Anniversary Macintosh!

20th Anniversary Mac, in Sir Jony's own words:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIFdBp8rbtA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIFdBp8rbtA)

------
ericzawo
A fitting name for Ive's new firm. Now perhaps Apple can get back to work on
fixing the function part of their laptops, like, say, the keyboard.

~~~
freehunter
I actually didn't see the name of the new company in the linked article. Turns
out it's called LoveFrom.

[https://www.wired.com/story/jony-ive-leaves-
apple/](https://www.wired.com/story/jony-ive-leaves-apple/)

~~~
steve19
Well we knew it wasn't going to be called LoveFunction

------
blue_devil
Whatever happened to design is beautiful because it's _functional_? _That_ was
the original meaning of the word design.

------
cryptica
Aside from the iPod, I've never liked any Apple product. They feel
constraining, less practical, less compatible, less comfortable, more
expensive.

The value of Apple products is mostly based on marketing. Apple sells products
by appealing to people's insecurities. Apple products appeal to status-focused
people who want to see themselves as cool and sophisticated to the point that
they are willing to overlook the terrible UX.

The mouse is so flat, it makes your hand sore. The keys are so low and
sensitive that you keep hitting the wrong keys and they easily break. The
navigation for most of their UI makes no sense. If you open the laptop while
it's sitting on your laps, it will pinch you when you open it. Having to use
Command+C to copy stuff by pushing with your thumb is awkward even after years
of use. Siri will keep popping up when your finger accidentally touches some
random key. Switching between multiple desktops/windows is a pain (e.g. even
compared to Ubuntu). Finder is shockingly bad; it's a struggle to navigate;
merely copying the current directory path is infeasible... The list of UX
problems goes on and on; I'm not even a UX designer but I can see all these
problems.

------
meerita
Jony Ive certainly took Apple to a new style era. I wonder who will be the
next one to do that and to me this is exciting. It means we will "maybe" a new
style from Apple. I owned most of the Apple products designed by Jony and pre-
Jony era. Can't be more excited with this. Also what he will do outside Apple,
it triggers my curiosity what he will be involved, I bet appliances.

~~~
catacombs
> I wonder who will be the next one to do that and to me this is exciting

A recently Art school graduate that can connect with those damn millennials
and Generation Z kids.

------
goldcd
What's always struck me about Apple, is that despite their espoused "form
follows function/Rams philosophy" \- it's clearly not their pattern.

They normally seem to start with a great idea (iMacs, ipods, iphones,
whatever) - and then add really great incremental additions (mag-safe, 'retina
displays', thumb-scanners etc) - and then completely lose sight of what they
were originally trying do do as they iterate further.

The air being thin was impressive, and ushered in everybody else pulling their
finger out. However removal of headphone jacks, connectors, to achieve this
was nothing anybody asked for.

Not just one the small stuff either - thermal problems on the g4 cube, trash-
can, imac pro.

The new Pro though looks awesome. Arguments over pricing are separate - but
first form-is-function device I've seen from them in an age.

I'd like to think Jony hates it, and has stomped off in a huff (or having
finally convinced the company to ship it, and point them in the right
direction, he's happy to walk away from his baby).

------
lwansbrough
"Designed by Jony Ive's design firm for Apple in California" doesn't quite
have the same ring to it.

------
dchest
This means we'll potentially have something other than Macs/iPhones designed
by Ive. Nice!

------
alaskamiller
Inevitably most every creative person crave independence regardless level. So
he pulled a kanye and started his own Donda. Now awaiting LoveForm x Mercedes,
LoveFrom x Piguet, LoveFrom x Nike, LoveFrom x Apple luxury goods collabs.

~~~
PascLeRasc
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted, this is an interesting idea. I'd love
to see Jony Ive's design language make it into other products like shoes or
car interiors.

------
FabianBeiner
A few days ago, Nick Law - current Chief Creative Officer of the Publicis
Groupe - announced that he will be leaving to join Apple for a "once in a
lifetime opportunity." Maybe he'll replace Jony Ive?!

------
nkkollaw
I truly hate Ive's design choices lately.

It's form over function (see: laptop so thin that the keyboard doesn't work,
you can't fit any port, etc. etc.), which is definitely NOT good design.

Both Apple's hardware and software have been nosediving for the past 5 years.
So much so that I'm still using a 2015 MacBook Pro, and only because of macOS
because Microsoft Surface Book looks about 1000 times better than anything
Apple's ever made—and it has a detachable touchscreen with pen.

I hope this is good news for Apple to get better at design again.

------
hapless
Maybe we'll get some Apple products that have features other than "Now 1%
thinner"

~~~
leadingthenet
Most Apple mobile devices actually got thicker recently, including the latest
iPhone.

------
stuart78
Seems like good news to me for both Apple and Ive. I don't think any of the
Apple design complaints posted elsewhere in the thread will be addressed, but
I hope a new design voice will emerge for the next generation of Apple
products.

And Ive seems to have been anxious to expand his work surface for quite some
time, especially as seen via Apple Watch. It will be interesting to see what
he does for other products in other spaces. I hope green field suits him well.

------
JJMcJ
It's the old "I'll quit and be a consultant and my old employer will be first
and only client", except that Ive is, I expect, rich already.

------
strict9
Since the early 2000s Apple's feature removals have been good--except for the
escape key/touchbar fiasco.

I've given it long enough and unlike the headphone jack which was painful but
managable, the MBP with touchbar needs a re-do. Physical buttons for escape
key and volume/brightness was a bridge too far.

Hopefully that can now happen with someone else in charge.

------
anbop
He's been irrelevant for a few years now and is working mainly on the
architecture of the new headquarters.

------
raverbashing
I suspect he had a hand in several recent Apple "successes" like extra thin
keyboards that break easily, $999 monitor stands and not to forget, the cables
that come apart easily.

While his work was definitely important at Apple, I think he might have lost
the needed balance when SJ left

~~~
toyg
I wouldn't put cables on him, but he did have a big hand in the 2013 Mac Pro,
which was possibly the worst thought-out Apple product of the last decade.

He did push boundaries, but sometimes boundaries pushed back.

~~~
anth_anm
For a second I thought you meant the 2013 Macbook Pro and I was wondering what
the hell you were talking about.

~~~
slantyyz
While I get the appeal of the Retina Macbook Pros and forward, my love affair
with the Mac laptop ended with the discontinuation of the 15" unibody Macbook
Pros.

Those unibody laptops represented just about everything I wanted in a laptop.

A powerful laptop with a quad i7 with a bunch of useful ports (including
ethernet) and the ability swap out the RAM and storage easily.

------
shriphani
Before I ever got a mac (or cared about these sorts of things), I saw the Jony
Ive exhibit at the design museum - left quite an impression on my family and
me - we thought of computers as some kind of calculator++ but this felt like
something out of a very upscale music studio.

------
solarkraft
I read this as "Jony wanted to go and we had no choice".

It seems like a good way of prettifying his legacy, "that famous designer guy"
vs "that guy at Apple".

------
Sonnol53
"I think he'll come back" \- Apple employee. There's more Apple employees
commenting on this post on Blind [https://www.teamblind.com/article/Apple-
says-goodbye-to-Jony...](https://www.teamblind.com/article/Apple-says-goodbye-
to-Jony-Ive-FLVGS3bp)

------
EugeneOZ
It's good that it's happened - will raise wave of criticism Apple deserves.

It's good that Apple will remain the main client of Jony Ive - we all make
mistakes, but he did a lot for devices design and I'm sure he still can push
it forward. Maybe new position will give him more freedom, maybe Apple need
more freedom :)

------
sys_64738
Sounds like he’s becoming an 1099 employee.

------
pooya13
Apple’s problem is that they are looking at their customer base for
directions, while ironically every business course uses Apple’s iPhone as THE
example for addressing pains from a first principle, evidence based, customer
discovery approach. Which is sad because at some point Apple was very
inspiring.

------
UIZealot
I wandered into an Apple Store with my wife one day to look at the Apple
Watches, the first major product designed without Steve Job's involvement.

Looking at the thick, rounded rectangles, I laughed out loud and said "Jony
Ive has no taste".

Like I said before, without Steve Jobs, Jony Ive is just another designer.

------
Celexior
The move is great on Ive's side, but on the customer side I thing Apple will
start to do the right compromise, and then the wrong ones. Apple should start
to promote others designers, this job is like a dream (huge company, almost
unlimited budget, and you can price the articles high).

------
Zenst
If you was to do this in the UK, the TAX man would hit you up with IR35 and
you would get taxed as if your was working for you former company.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IR35](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IR35)

------
WMCRUN
The last paragraph has nothing to do with Jony Ive and is like a little self
pep talk from Apple.

~~~
TimTheTinker
That’s their press release boilerplate. The same paragraph appears at the
bottom of every press release, though it gets updated from time to time.
They’ve been doing that since at least 2004.

------
mikerg87
Does this mean that Scott Forstall might be back at Apple to help fix their
software issues

------
LeicaLatte
What happened to the Beatles after the death of John Lennon? How did the Doors
manage themselves creatively after Jim? It is going to be fascinating to see
how Apple manages creativity, collaboration and inspiration hereon.

~~~
valleyer
In case you're being serious, the Beatles broke up ten years before Lennon
died.

~~~
LeicaLatte
Dead serious.

------
cvaidya1986
End of an era. On the bright side, more lucky companies will get to work with
him!

------
jonplackett
Been thinking about this and what it says to me is there’s nothing that
interesting going to come out of apple for the next 5 years.

If something totally amazing - AR glasses etc was coming even reasonably soon,
no way he is leaving now

------
734129837261
I've never been impressed by anything that man has done. He just sailed along
with the ideas and changes made by Jobs. Ive seems like the typical designer
who is unaware of anything hardware related. The trashcan was proof of that.
The new cheese grater is probably a royal pain in his rear because it doesn't
looks pretty.

Even his voice overs were tacky as hell. Easy to make fun of. Cringeworthy at
best.

When Jobs dies Apple's creativity and forward-thinking also died. They started
multi-touch, they made touch screens work, they made MacBooks that weren't
full of stickers and big humps of plastic, they made smartphones with an OS
that actually worked smoothly.

When Jobs died they stopped innovating. Maybe a few remnants of Jobs' ideas
were implemented but none of them to the degree of innovativeness and quality
during his time.

Jobs would have canned so much crap Apple has released over the years. He
would have made certain products so much better by simply spending several
billions more on research and development.

Jobs wasn't there to suck up to shareholders. He was not even there for us.
I'm pretty sure he was there for himself and his legacy.

Jony Ive was never part of anything impressive. To me, he's just the talking
head with a voice who they hopefully took away any control from.

Apple needs to spend some of their countless billions on innovation and
setting standards that are 5 years ahead of the competition. Instead, they're
twice as expensive with outdated tech. Such a shame.

------
csomar
Another possibility: Apple can’t pay him a big salary without a huge IRS tax.

With a sole company, he’ll be able to invest his earnings into the company as
well as deduct several of the expenses. Significantly reducing his tax rate.

~~~
PedroBatista
I think Apple CAN spare a penny or 2 to pay his salary..

It's more a divorce/open relationship Cosmopolitan style.

------
prsutherland
He still will work with Apple although Apple will need a special adapter.

------
alphagrep12345
What exactly is his job? Is he a designer who says - this is how our product
should look like? Or does he actually engineer the product deciding which
component should be smaller, etc?

------
noja
Ive been waiting for this

~~~
PunksATawnyFill
Ive seen what you did there, and approved.

~~~
behnamoh
Ive had enough!

------
asciimov
I hope this is an indication that the Braun/Dieter Rams well spring has run
dry.

I wonder, where does the design language of Apple go if they move away from
their current aesthetic.

------
333c
I wonder how this will affect Apple's product lines over the next decade. It
seems like Ive had huge influence on most of their products. Who will take his
place?

~~~
alanbernstein
Jony Ive, Inc?

~~~
qychtkd
His new company is called LoveFrom. Marc Newson is joining too.

------
bitL
Hooray! Can we now get skeumorphic desktop and Fn keys back?

~~~
Austin_Conlon
Realism is making somewhat of a comeback, take a look at the Books app.

------
emiliosic
Apple needs a 'refreshed' vision in hardware design. It's beautiful, but not
the most practical. This 'soft exit' to me is for the best.

------
bawana
too bad the 'designers' are stuck on static endpoints like appearance.
Functional design is ignored. How many gestures am I supposed to remember?
iOS13 is crazy with multiple 'spaces'. Why is no one implementing auditory
input? I would like to say 'switch to workspace 1' and have it do that, or
'minimize', or 'next tab', etc.

~~~
junipertea
You can. Check voice control.

------
gchokov
This PR really does sound like a crisis management.

------
m1sta_
Jony Ive always seemed to looked at product design like he was trying to
establish an emotional relationship, not a business partnership.

------
JimBrimble35
Oh thank God, I'll have another company to not buy products from!

Seriously though, I think his vision may have overstayed it's welcome at
apple.

------
tantalor
This is some kind of tax/regulation dodge?

------
kurczakov
Marc Newson is joining as well, this is unexpected for me, since new Mac Pro
seems heavily influenced by his work. IMO.

------
boreas
Completely off topic, but it took me three tries to parse this:

 _There’ve been rumors for years that Ive had one foot out the door_

------
totaldude87
Multiple ports - yeah!!!! No more butterfly keyboards- yeah!!!!

I say bring back the Mac book pro 2012 - that's all I need.

------
LeicaLatte
Is this a result of the keyboard fiasco?

~~~
catacombs
I doubt it. Thirty years at a company is a long time, especially if Ives
worked under a strict contract. He probably wanted to be his own boss.

~~~
LeicaLatte
There is precedence for this behavior by Tim/Apple. Ask Scott Forstall.

------
bayareanative
IDEO competitor?

Why not just drop into a VP or C-role of such a firm than build such a company
completely from nothing?

------
jVinc
Interesting move. Looking forwards to seeing what he decides to do outside of
work with Apple.

------
babyslothzoo
I guess there isn't much design needed in services and upselling of services
anyway

------
ElFitz
Oh well. I hope it won't, but that's probably gonna be interesting.

------
mikorym
I don't know the details of how this would work, but I can see rationale in
general of compartmentalising and furthermore making each compartment self
sufficient.

It can easily happen that a department in a company becomes unprofitable or
complacent in the absence of direct market forces.

------
bborud
Thank goodness. I hope this means function can trump form more often.

------
musicale
Time to get his revenge for Steve Jobs cancelling the eMate!

------
neokrish
Interesting that this comes at a time when Apple is redefining itself with
Privacy, iPadOS and other major efforts. Could this have been a planned
announcement? Just wondering the timing and if it means anything..

~~~
HatchedLake721
Why would this not be planned at a trillion dollar company with a key historic
person that spent 30 years there?

------
zinckiwi
Apple's About Us page will be all smiles.

------
iamgopal
I never felt less compelled to buy iPhone.

------
milin
Bye Bye Jony Ive you will not be missed.

------
_hardwaregeek
Geez, from these responses you'd think Jony Ive nearly killed Apple or
something. There's a lot of inevitable criticism about Apple, whether it's
Macbook Pro and its lack of ports or the iPhone and it's lack of headphone
jack. One aspect that I've noticed about this criticism is that it always
presumes to be absolutely, undoubtedly correct. That there can't and isn't
another perspective. Apple _sucks_. Clearly. Obviously.

For instance, take the Macbook Pro. There's two ways of viewing it. The first
view is that it sucks. There's no USB A ports to plug in flash drives. There's
no SD card reader. The lack of function keys is inexcusable, terrible,
whatever. The second view is that it's incredible. The laptop is thin and
absolutely beautiful. You can palm it in one hand with ease. When you hold it,
you feel its lightness and lithe.

The main difference between these points of view is that the first perspective
has prerequisites. The people who hold this view are those who use flash
drives, or those who need SD card readers, or those who use function keys.
Take note, this is far from the general population. I know I don't need a lot
of these features on a daily basis and I'm not unusual. On the other hand, the
second point of view is one of aesthetics. And as much as some may claim the
contrary, we all value aesthetics to a degree. Even if some may vocalize to
the contrary, deep down everybody likes pretty, shiny stuff.

And man, Apple (and therefore Ive) makes pretty, shiny stuff like no other.
What I respect about Ive is just how relentless he is in his pursuit of
beauty. Beauty in aesthetics, but also beauty in sensation. What stuns me is
how no other computer company has figured this out. I have a ThinkPad on my
desktop and it's just so goddamn ugly. It's made of this cheap plastic that
feels light, yet the laptop is heavier than my Macbook Pro. The lid is too
heavy, so you have to hold the bottom portion down to open the laptop. There
are two unnecessary logos that are too small to be easily read from afar and
too ugly to be worthwhile. The laptop just feels bad. Granted, a ThinkPad is a
bit of a strawman. Microsoft's own products are probably a better comparison.
To an extent, they're quite nice, pretty beautiful even. Yet they still don't
have this relentlessness towards beauty that Apple has. Their products still
feel like compromises. And in compromising the products have become more
attractive to group A or population B. But they have lost their raw magnetism,
the beauty that attracts all. Whether or not this alienation of the small
groups is worth the attraction of the larger population is a separate debate,
but I respect Apple and Ive's decision to stay on one side.

Speaking of, it's rather fascinating seeing how Apple can make a product feel
"new" for so many different iterations. I've thought that a particular
iteration was the pinnacle of this product, that nothing else would look
cooler or newer or more...well futuristic. Only to be totally proven wrong by
the next iteration.

------
hypertexthero
Please restore reliable keyboards, MagSafe connectors, and better user
interfaces, Apple Computer!

------
yongchoi
It's kinda sad though

------
cbetti
Congratulations Jony.

------
unixhero
Why didn't he do this a few decades ago?

------
api
A new kind of thinner lighter design firm?

------
Mugwort
Sell?

~~~
TimTheTinker
Um, yeah :-]

Actually, I think Steve and Jony together were really where the magic
happened. Since Steve passed away, form has often trumped function at Apple.

------
mandeepj
soon - Tesla as client too

~~~
steve19
Apple are developing self driving tech so maybe he won't be allowed to work
with TSLA.

~~~
mandeepj
Self driving tech is just one of part of the car. He can work on looks or just
other parts.

------
emsy
"I've named my company 'I'. It's the thinnest and lightest name I've ever
created" Sorry I couldn't resist.

------
onion2k
Nothing in this post says Ive's new company will _only_ work with Apple. Maybe
he'll land Dell as a client..

~~~
Despegar
If Apple is his client he's probably not going to take any clients that
competes with them.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Honestly I just doubt Ive would want to "bless" more than one competing
product. The way I imagine this is that it frees Jony Ive to expand his unique
brand of "perfection" to more product types than Apple sells.

Like, maybe Jony Ive continues to push Apple products and design as the best
computers/phones, and then also is now designing appliances and cars and
furniture.

------
anth_anm
Hopefully this lets Apple move back to making great devices that look great,
instead of devices with seriously compromised performance in exchange for
being very slightly more thin.

------
mergy
Still funny. >>
[https://jonyiveredesignsthings.tumblr.com/](https://jonyiveredesignsthings.tumblr.com/)

The freeway sign was great >>
[https://66.media.tumblr.com/2fa4ae4cfe93b3662ca9ac0b60769861...](https://66.media.tumblr.com/2fa4ae4cfe93b3662ca9ac0b60769861/tumblr_mojqymtKCY1svn1xeo1_500.jpg)

~~~
nasredin
Can't believe this wasn't mentioned sooner!

------
azhenley
Stock is down 1% after hours. Will be interesting to watch it tomorrow.

~~~
typon
Absolutely no evidence that there's any correlation between that and this news

~~~
azhenley
I don't think we can ever be certain of the cause of stock price changes. I
said it will be interesting to watch.

------
southerndrift
What if St(eve) Jobs picked Mr. [E|I]ve just because that's the name needed to
hand out apples to people, especially the bitten ones? In other words: is his
design really that important?

------
makecheck
When you give a lot of power to someone with a lot of talent, great things can
happen. The downside is that nobody’s perfect (even talented people) so a
person with a lot of power can make a wrong decision and that may be all it
takes for the decision to be final.

In that type of structure, preventing wrong decisions comes down to things
like the personality traits, wisdom, etc. of the people with all the power. In
other words, is he or she the type of person that can be convinced NOT to do
something that they would otherwise decide to do?

I can only observe what has come out of Apple in recent years. I immediately
saw things I disliked in their software when Jony Ive was _also_ put in charge
of software (to this day, much of iOS-7-style apps seem form-over-function to
me and I want more gradients, damn-it). And there were also some massive
hardware failures, most of all keyboards, screens and Touch Bars. If Jony made
most of these calls and just couldn’t be convinced otherwise, I’m glad he’s
gone and look forward to a happy medium of “pretty nice _but usable_ ”
hardware and software.

