
Ways to improve gender equity in the tech sector - Oatseller
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/ucla-faculty-voice-five-ways-to-improve-gender-equity-in-the-tech-sector
======
yagibear
Why is it that so many people (such as this author) use participation rates as
an indicator of equity? I understand gender equity to refer to equal TREATMENT
of different genders, which is quite different from having equal NUMBERS of
both genders in the workplace. Some differences in participation rates MAY be
due to gender inequity, but some may also be due to other factors such as
innate differences between genders (a crude example: perceptions about the
meaning of prerequisites as mentioned in the article).

The first proposed "solution" merely promotes participation rates as a measure
of gender equity, and the 2nd proposal "Provide female entrepreneurs with..."
just adds another form of inequity. Only the 4th proposal seems truly gender
neutral and constructive.

~~~
B-Con
> Why is it that so many people (such as this author) use participation rates
> as an indicator of equity?

It's easier to chase metrics than fix problems. Any many are deaf to the
possibility that equal treatment would not yield equal participation.

~~~
setra
This is just the Marxist dialectic applied to social issues. If there is a
difference in outcome it can only be because of discrimination.

~~~
necessity
Relevant: [https://youtu.be/ENL-Jv8GVkk#t=29m15s](https://youtu.be/ENL-
Jv8GVkk#t=29m15s)

------
gyardley
The best way to improve gender equity in tech (and fight just about every
other form of discrimination at the same time) is to put an end to Silicon
Valley's ridiculous culture of overwork. I don't know how everyone fell into
this trap - it leads to terrible code, developer burnout, and eventually
drives out anyone who has or wants any semblance of a life outside of work,
which in practice is anyone who isn't a male in their twenties.

I don't care what your personal politics on gender equality are - if you're
making your employees work sixty-hour weeks you're functionally identical to
Pat Buchanan.

------
codemac
#4 is super important for many things, not just gender equity.

One of the biggest ones is to make sure that you actually clearly communicate
what you want out of an employee. If you expect someone to be doing more work
than someone else, but they have the same title.. you may want different
titles. Or clear (and public!) pay grades that signify seniority if you don't
want MTS1 MTS2 MTS3 MTS4 MTS5 MTS++ style titles.

Companies, especially small ones, that skirt performance review policies as
either unimportant or "too formal" can lead to a lot of incidental/accidental
discrimination that goes unnoticed until it's too late.

~~~
meric
We had expanded to a new country and decided to open an office there. Since we
didn't know the market rates for developers over there the founder proposed to
pay whatever people ask for plus 10%. We ended up hiring a light skinned
person and a dark skinned person. The latter was more experienced and skilled
than the former and had asked for 40% less salary. I only found out after we
had hired them and spent a lot of goodwill convincing the founder to increase
his salary to the same level. It was crazy we were going to pay one person
more for less skills because the color of his skin made him have higher salary
expectations! There was also the other issue of him acting as if he knew more
than everyone when he didn't but I'm digressing...

~~~
zo1
>" _It was crazy we were going to pay one person more for less skills because
the color of his skin made him have higher salary expectations!_ "

Let's not bring race into this. Not unless said employee was making
comments/opinions such as "I'm white, therefore I deserve more" or "I expect
more because I'm white".

At the very least, you would have no idea to the motives behind his higher
expectations (or the other person's lower expectations).

~~~
meric
Yes, let's make it clear it isn't a first order effect but likely a third or
fourth order effect. E.g. They grew up in different areas of the country, one
part having higher living standard expectations, and if you get to the bottom
of it, it had to do with race at some point decades ago.

------
xixi77
All looks very reasonable; but I have some partial doubts on the #3, Improve
Job Descriptions, more specifically on picking words that women prefer to see.
It may be the case that women on average prefer job descriptions mentioning
(quoting the link) "sociable" and "responsible" to "independent" and
"analytical", but these are not entirely meaningless characteristics. There
definitely are people, both men and women, who would be turned off by the
former and attracted by the latter, and perhaps they would have been a better
fit for the job, given the original description?

~~~
collyw
Most of the ads I see want specific tech skills. If men or women don't have
those they are not going to apply.

~~~
xixi77
Well, actually my anecdotal experience kinda aligns with what the article says
in that part: I know a few people -- all of them women -- who would look at an
ad saying "X,Y,Z,and T", and say "sure I am comfortable with X, Y and T, but I
don't know much Z, so it's clearly not for me".

------
notacoward
Blind auditions. Do knowledge- and skills-based tests in such a way that the
people administering them don't know the race, gender, or age of the
candidate. Ditto for behavioral tests - you know, the trick questions and fake
scenarios designed to ferret out whether you're honest, passionate, creative,
etc. Have _someone else_ evaluate experience and/or references.

Constructing the necessary exercises and evaluations is a lot more work than
traditional interviewing, especially if you also want to avoid the "silly
puzzle questions that only prove you read the same book" syndrome, but it is
possible and would avoid most kinds of bias.

------
KaiserPro
Your first port of call should be equality.

Your job postings are quite rightly designed to filter out people that lack
the skills you are after. However they also serve as an unwitting barrier.

One thing I have seen that is successful is actively going out and recruiting
people who are different from you. Universities are a great source of untapped
talent. More importantly they haven't been beaten down by
classism/sexism/*ism.

Being surrounded by people who look, act and sound like you is a boring boring
life.

------
skimpycompiler
Even simpler methods exist.

Realize that framing your daughters behavior by giving her babies, princesses,
dolls, makeup, clothes and similar to play with, while your boy gets the
newest action games, puzzles, balls, competitive and brain engaging fun, will
definitely influence her future career choices.

When you take your daughter to look at some princess movies, or some toy story
thingy, while you watch star wars and star trek with your son, long into the
night, think of what kind of framing is done.

Of course, even if you try to keep all the options open. Someone from her
school might make your daughter do "girls only" activities. Or maybe she'll be
forbidden from accessing the Star Wars room at Legoland because she's a girl.
Whole world is against your little girl becoming like a man. She needs babies
so she knows she has to be a mother. She needs kitchen games so she knows she
has to cook. She needs to play with dolls, to groom them, to dress them, so
that she eventually does the same for herself. She needs to be pretty, and by
pretty we mean makeup.

If someone is naive enough to believe that boys and girls have innately
different interests, then so be it.

But girls ain't "gurls" because they don't like technology.

~~~
collyw
"If someone is naive enough to believe that boys and girls have innately
different interests, then so be it."

Its been shown that male monkeys prefer boys toys while females prefer girls
toys. No cultural conditioning required.

[http://animalwise.org/2012/01/26/born-this-way-gender-
based-...](http://animalwise.org/2012/01/26/born-this-way-gender-based-toy-
preferences-in-primates/)

~~~
Kalium
Before someone jumps in with the notion that monkeys have culture too, it
should be noted that monkeys have not developed the wheel. Thus, they are
unlikely to have defined gender roles for wheeled toys.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
Also remember that gender isn't the only diversity issue in tech. Race is too,
among others.

~~~
collyw
Race is an interesting one in IT. I have seen many indian programers but
hardly any black ones. I never see any Asian techies in europe, but I hear
there are a fair number in the states.

~~~
S4M
> I never see any Asian techies in europe

There you have one, and in the same city as you! At my previous workplace (in
Barcelona) there was a Taiwanese programmer, and before that in London I met
many Asian (mostly Chinese) programmers.

------
Mz
I wish we had something more like The Rooney Rule and less of this kind of
discussion:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule)

------
facepalm
Perhaps one reason is that jobs in Computing are typically not all that
attractive? My current freelance project sees me working in a room with 20
people, lined up on long desks (not even Cubicles). After a while, it can get
a bit smelly. There are 4 women and 16 men working in the room, and to be
honest I wonder why the women put up with it (they are not developers,
either).

That kind of setup is not uncommon. I have been asked to work in windowless
rooms, which I rejected. I have worked in ugly industrial areas and ugly
buildings. I have worked in the basement that wasn't officially suitable for
human use (only legal for storage).

After 6 hours, my eyes hurt from the strain of looking at HTML and Javascript
all day, trying to find tiny mistakes in the source code. But I have at least
2 more hours to go. Human interaction is minimal - yes there are meetings, but
that is not the same as human interaction that for example a doctor sees.

Sure, jobs at Google or Facebook might be fancy. But even at big companies
(including Google) I have seen those big open plan offices. They just had more
colorful toys lying around at Google. And most devs won't work for Facebook or
Google.

Why do I put up with it? Because I need the money to feed my family, and I can
not easily switch to another profession. This is probably controversial and
will give me downvotes, but most women don't need to work to feed their family
- their husbands do that. So they are not forced to put up with smelly,
crowded, windowless rooms for years and years on end. And women can easily
switch profession, too: they can simply become mothers, which 40% choose to do
(become fulltime moms, that is - more women become mothers of course).

I enjoy programming for my own projects, but most dev jobs I did for money
were gruesome.

Note that this gruesomeness affects women and men in the same way. There are
no offensive Star Wars posters or other Geeky things lining the walls. The
environments just tend to be less comfy, because devs only stare into their
computers anyway.

The notion always seems to be that the women who shy away from tech end up
leading "wasted", brainless lives as housewives. Not so. They become doctors,
or journalists, or liberal arts people (and btw., housewive and spending time
with your kids is not all that bad either).

I understand if companies want to lure women into tech, because it gives them
a greater talent pool and lower wages (because of greater supply). But it is
not an issue of equality.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Programming can be shit for sure.

But we shouldn't push out people who want to do it. We don't tell boys not to.

~~~
facepalm
We don't tell girls not to, either. Quite the opposite in fact. The only
people who tell women not to enter tech are feminists.

And I am honestly torn about recommending it to my son. I will (try to) teach
him programming for sure and even hope to encourage him to earn money on the
side while at school. But for real professions, there might be better options
to consider. Oh, and I will also do the same for my daughter, of course, it's
just that your claim was about what we recommend to boys. I will also teach my
daughter not to listen to the feminists.

I will teach them because that is something I have knowledge about, and I
think kids should benefit from their parent's specialties if possible. If I
were a designer I would teach them design, if I were a musician I would teach
them music, and so on...

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
> The only people who tell women not to enter tech are feminists.

You've never spoken to conservative parents, then.

~~~
facepalm
How common are they? It is 2015, not 1950.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Plenty common. Witness the upset at attempts to remove 'boy' and 'girl' toy
labelling.

~~~
facepalm
Well that is a pretty loaded issue, not sure if it is a good indicator for
conservativeness.

In any case, where are the campaigns targeted at parents, if it is such a big
worry?

------
kelukelugames
Making security badges more friendly to women's clothing would go a long way.

~~~
blhack
Can you explain?

~~~
kelukelugames
There are a lot of little thing that remind women they don't belong.
Apparently badges are one of the minor peeves. A guy can just clip them on
their belt loops. That doesn't always work for women.

~~~
trhway
I wonder how well an employee can fit into a corporate drone role (what most
jobs in tech are) if that employee's issues already start with the badge.

~~~
kelukelugames
It don't think it's a major issue. Just something I heard a couple of my
friends complain about.

------
necessity
Why are there so few male manicures? Why so few male babysitters? Why so few
female NASCAR drivers? Why so few female in the army? Why so few male in the
wedding dress business?

We MUST to do something about this! People of a certain gender cannot prefer
some activities over others!

This is ridiculous.

------
jfaucett
For me a portion of this problem is caused by religion as well, particularly
those with sexist ideologies (for example islam see:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam)).
Though, this is a subject that I rarely if ever hear brought up in the media,
even in european irreligious countries like sweden.
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_by_country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_by_country))

If you cross reference the countries by religion and their rating on gender
equality, you will notice the most religious countries are some of the most
inequal.([http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-
report-2014/ran...](http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-
report-2014/rankings/),
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations#...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations#By_proportion))
This doesnt mean both are related of course, but if you think beliefs about
moral affect behavior you would expect to see this type of correlation.

Im prepared to get downvoted for my opinion on the detriments of religion here
so have at me :)

EDIT: If you downvote please say why? Id like to see good counter argument.

~~~
trhway
interesting how a strong necessity (like life and death necessity) overrules
the gender inequality, even the one well embedded in the dominating religion
in a pretty religious country - i mean females serving in Israel army.

------
setra
This is literally what happens:
[http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/files/2015/06/stemwom...](http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/files/2015/06/stemwomen.jpg)

~~~
arenaninja
I might get downvoted for sharing the following anecdote.

I've a niece whom I absolutely adore. I try to steer her now and then to
software development as a career. She's 14 so I don't expect much focus out of
her, but her curiosity for it just doesn't seem to be there. Her brother is
11, and it couldn't be more obvious to me that he is much more adept at
tinkering, even though I've never broached the subject with him. My niece will
usually agree with me so I'll stop talking, then go on facebook or netflix or
look up kardashian news (not a stereotype, this is 100% what happens). I'm
still trying to figure out a way to reach her, but so far every effort has
been met with active disinterest. She says she likes the perks that I seem to
get (flexible hours, work from home, decent pay, etc.), so at least there's
hope she could still be drawn to that eventually

~~~
jack-r-abbit
Some might advise you to keep pushing her and pushing her because "we need
more women in STEM" and all that. I would advise you to just let her be. We
like to teach our children that they can be anything they want to be when they
grow up. So... maybe she doesn't want to be a software developer.

"We need more women in STEM... even if we have to drag them kicking and
screaming", said no one ever.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
What is needed is to stop pushing women out of STEM (believe it or not, many
girls are attracted to it) and encourage them to get into it to the same
degree we do for boys. You're absolutely right that force is not the way to
go.

