
Helsinki’s personalized bus service is like Uber for public transit  - hershel
http://grist.org/list/helsinkis-personalized-bus-service-is-like-uber-for-public-transit/
======
untog
Now _this_ is interesting, when compared to Uber and the like. I imagine it
requires a large ridership to be worthwhile (otherwise you're basically
dispatching large cabs, but charging less), but it's a fascinating concept for
large cities.

I imagine there are downsides though - if you're using it to get to work then
surely your journey time is variable?

~~~
hershel
According to a simulation in[1], If employed at scale, such system would have
a mean order time of 5 minutes,a mean wait time of half a minute and a mean
ride time of 1.5x of a direct trip.

[1][http://www.floating-content.net/~esa/pub/files/jokinen-
fists...](http://www.floating-content.net/~esa/pub/files/jokinen-
fists-2011.pdf)

~~~
ericd
Neat. What's the variance? Being late 20% of the time despite leaving a decent
amount of time before the mean wouldn't be great...

~~~
hershel
I skimmed the pdf , and didn't see variance.

~~~
ericd
Dang, ah well, thanks for checking.

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jrochkind1
This was actually proposed by by Christopher Alexander in _A Pattern Language_
originally published in 1977. He cites an MIT study from which he may have
gotten the idea.

[http://books.google.com/books?id=hwAHmktpk5IC&&pg=PA110](http://books.google.com/books?id=hwAHmktpk5IC&&pg=PA110)

I'm actually surprised it hasn't been done before now, we've had the
technology for a while. (It's not clear from the brief write-up if this one is
a private company or municipal service).

The entry from A Pattern Language has stuck with me as a good idea (and
because it was rather atypical for the other patterns Alexander included, this
is the only one i recall that's so overtly related to IT). Alexander's version
predates cell/smartphones phones as well as the powerful computers of the 21st
century;. it assumes you still need some fixed 'stops' with phones next to
them for people to call for dispatch. But the basic idea of routing small
busses based on demand and shared rides, using computer software to make it
feasible, is there.

~~~
oh_sigh
Do you happen to remember the number of this pattern in the book? I read A
Pattern Language by flipping to random pages, and following various trails of
references, but I don't think I've come across this one yet...

~~~
dbarlett
#20 MINI-BUSES
[http://www.jacana.plus.com/pattern/P20.htm](http://www.jacana.plus.com/pattern/P20.htm)

------
jks
I live in Helsinki and have tried this service a couple of times. Every time I
have had the whole van for myself, except once there was a journalist doing a
story on the fancy new service. It's not really fair to compare the price to a
single bus ride: if you live in Helsinki and don't own a car, you already have
a monthly ticket and the incremental cost of getting on a bus is zero. This is
in effect a cheap taxi that's a little less convenient.

What I think they're really doing is getting around Finland's taxi permit
system (there's a limited number of taxi permits so there is no real
competition) by building a taxi-like service that can only pick you up and
drop you off at bus stops, which apparently avoids getting the vans classified
as taxis.

~~~
jerguismi
Nah, the service is not private but public transport project, and it isn't
viable business. The trips are covered by the tax money paid by you (and me).
There is no way a taxi trip could cost $5 using that kind of vehicle. You also
have to factor in the operational costs and note that the cars are Mercedez
Benz vans with wifi etc.

~~~
jks
Well, yeah, it's the Helsinki Regional Transport Authority getting around
another branch of government (it's the ELY-keskus that gives out taxi permits,
part of the state instead of the city). I agree that there is no way this can
be a profitable business now, but if they can get a sufficient user base it
could become one.

~~~
tuukkah
The Kutsuplus van operators are required to have either a taxi permit or a
public transport permit, which is also granted by ELY but much easier to get:
[http://www.ely-keskus.fi/en/web/ely-en/trafik](http://www.ely-
keskus.fi/en/web/ely-en/trafik)

Ajelo Oy has projected that the service would be sustainable at 100 vans and
profitable at 1000 vans.

------
rajat
[http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/10/the-
ille...](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/10/the-illegal-
private-bus-system-that-works/246166/)

But those are not hip tech entrepreneurs...

~~~
opium_tea
I've witnessed exactly that kind of informal public transport system in cities
in Africa. Interesting that it's taken hold in New York.

Doubtless it occurs in numerous other cities, though i'd always assumed it was
a developing countries phenomenon (cue joke about Queens).

------
danielweber
I'd love this. If American public transportation fans would stop fantasizing
about trains and instead do what really works for most people -- buses -- then
we could have things a lot better.

I've been waiting for _years_ for a service that dispatches a nice bus to ride
in on my way to work without me having to walk/drive to a bus stop and hope
the schedule is right.

I'd accept a modest increase in the commute time if I could
read/sleep/play/watch TV for the duration of the commute.

~~~
untog
_If American public transportation fans would stop fantasizing about trains
and instead do what really works for most people -- buses_

Trains really work for large numbers of people. A single NYC subway train can
carry something like 2,400 people. A bus can carry something like 1/10 of that
at best. Once you factor in the subway and local train services to New Jersey,
CT, Long Island and Upstate New York you really, _really_ don't want to think
of buses as the future of mass transit in dense urban areas.

~~~
anologwintermut
The story that trains are superior for high density is not necessarily true.
Buses with dedicated lanes appear to have high throughputs and lower
infrastructure costs ( not to mention can continue to run into lower density
areas or have routes more easily changed as the population density shifts).

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit#Comparison_wi...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit#Comparison_with_light_rail.2F_metro_systems)

~~~
tacticus
But significantly greater operational costs. Those comparisons are with light
rail not heavy rail like the new york subway.

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ZoFreX
I stayed at a town in Turkey, Trabzon I think, where the whole town seemed to
run on a related concept - the "taxibus". It was very low tech, based purely
on flagging down a taxibus that looked like it was going the right way, but it
worked extremely well. Price was reasonable, the town was full of them so it
was easy to get a ride, and you got exactly where you were going unlike with a
bus. I've been wanting to see a higher tech version for larger towns / cities
ever since.

~~~
bwilliams18
In Johannesberg they have the same system, except there are specific hand
signals to flag down a cab based on where you're going. Its incredibly Low-
Tech, but it works incredibly well.

------
gerjomarty
Northern Irish black taxis used to use this basic idea sans the technology.
You'd typically get in to a taxi, ask what direction it's going, and if it was
going roughly where you wanted, you'd wait until it had filled up with other
people going in the same direction.

As you'd imagine, getting from the centre of town back home was fine, but it
didn't quite work the other way.

Making this process more flexible by adding technology is a great idea, though
it'd depend on the demographic of people who'd want a service like this and
whether they actually have smartphones.

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snir
We've actually been working on something like this for San Francisco (and we
plan to expand onwards after operating here):
[http://www.takehitch.com](http://www.takehitch.com)

The municipality tends to work a little slower here (chatted a bit with SFMTA
in the past), so we're starting with a model that just focuses on private
cars. But the fundamental point--dynamic re-routing to create custom routes
where people can ride in the same vehicle--is very much in the spirit of what
we're doing.

We're still in a pre-launch phase, but check out our iOS app:
[http://www.takehitch.com/download](http://www.takehitch.com/download)

~~~
azernik
How do other Bay Area county/city systems match up? E.g. have you tried making
a similar arrangement with AC transit and was/would it have been easier or
harder?

~~~
snir
We haven't, but that's a great idea. There are some limitations that tether us
to cities (so networks like SamTrans in Palo Alto aren't ideal), but AC in the
East Bay would be an excellent fit.

Thanks!

------
hershel
This is based on a software by ajelo.com which is based on some interesting
research:

Why urban mass demand responsive transport?:

[http://www.floating-content.net/~esa/pub/files/jokinen-
fists...](http://www.floating-content.net/~esa/pub/files/jokinen-
fists-2011.pdf)

Demand responsive transport: Models and algorithms:

lib.tkk.fi/Diss/2013/isbn9789526051635/isbn9789526051635.pdf

------
ChuckMcM
There is a bus which was making runs by the Caltrain station that made me
think of this same thing. Which is basically if you took a bus that was going
to a common aggregation node (like Caltrain) and let people summon it (like
Uber) you could then present them with an estimate when the bus would show up
(like NextBus) and how long the trip would take to your destination. Then in
the morning as everyone summoned "I want to get to Caltrain" you layout the
route and start driving. The bus driver just has a modified GPS navigator
thing which is telling them to turn and to stop and wait.

Connect the dots with NFC and you've got Uber Bus or something similar.

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Zigurd
If you don't have consistent high ridership buses can easily fall below the
efficiency of cars. I'd bet DRT could replace a lot of bus lines that are not
hitting efficiency thresholds and deliver better service.

Might be a good solution for lower-density areas where its difficult to make
buses efficient. I wonder how low the population density can go before DRT
stops working.

~~~
danielweber
If the ridership isn't high enough at a period of time, send out a private car
for the person requesting a ride.

On non-rush-hours, buses in America often operate almost or completely empty.
It would be cheaper to just give taxis to people who need it at that point.

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sidww2
This is called the Dial-a-ride problem or pickup and delivery problem with
time windows in optimization literature in case anyone is interested.

------
brunnsbe
Here is a link to the official page of the service:
[https://kutsuplus.fi/tour](https://kutsuplus.fi/tour)

It's always nice to get new services, but I'm afraid this one will become a
niche product due to the public transport system in Helsinki already is
working so well.

A service that is used a lot is the Tour Planner which was one of the first
ones released for public transport in the world (I think this is already the
third version of it):
[http://www.reittiopas.fi/en/](http://www.reittiopas.fi/en/)

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jerguismi
It should be noted that it isn't shown if this project is economically viable.
The project is funded with tax money.

I myself use the service almost daily, enjoying the taxi rides which cost $5.
I would bet that the real cost of one trip is something like $50. Almost all
the time I'm the only customer in the bus. The service quality drops
noticiebly when the driver needs to pick up/drop other customers. I will
probably stop using the service if it gets popular.

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duggan
I wonder how relevant solutions to combinatorial optimization problems like
the traveling salesman problem[1] are to something like this (with the number
of nodes increasing decreasing, and changing location).

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem)

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hershel
If this will be deployed in UBER's model, i.e. freelanced drivers of vans,
this could scale very rapidly very fast.

~~~
shiftpgdn
They've had this in the Philippines since forever (minus the smartphone part)
with Jeepneys/jitneys. It's not a totally new idea.

~~~
hershel
I believe jitneys are different: they have a fixed route. This , by gathering
pickup and drop-off points optimizes routes and passengers. The end result is
much shorter trips.

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Cthulhu_
This isn't new, really. It was already possible to book a taxi / van; elderly
people often use services like this.

Second, some bus lines get so little used you need to call ahead two hours in
advance before they send a bus to the bus stop.

~~~
hershel
I think in this service you order a short time(10 minutes) in advance, and you
get optimized routes. That wasn't there before i believe.

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osmala
This is public service that is subsidized by goverment and its not profitable
and its goal is to help elderly get around in the city. It has some additional
stops beyond normal bus stops, and it has far more limited service area than
normal busses in the Capital. For instance the air port is outside the service
area. Its also a nice complementary service for public transport on uncommon
trips that would take too much time to change between 3 different busses or
more.

~~~
tuukkah
It's true that it's currently not profitable but in a beta phase of sorts.
With the limited number of vans in operation, it doesn't make sense to spread
out to the suburbs outside the first ring road.

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ntoshev
I'm running a service optimizing deliveries
([https://fleetnavi.com](https://fleetnavi.com), Bulgarian language _only_
although it's fully usable when auto-translated with Chrome). I've been
thinking of using the engine to do public transit like this, or a courier
service (airbnb for couriers), or a transportation services exchange. Contact
me if you think we could work together on something similar.

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ajiang
I love this and have been in love with a similar idea for a while.
Kickstarter-style charter buses - only when enough people agree that they need
a ride from Area A to Area B will the bus be chartered from a company. You can
have spontaneous bus routes, that get cheaper as more people join the route.
Over time, when patterns start revealing themselves, you can build regular
shuttle routes and put a big dent in the public transit problem in the Bay
Area.

~~~
chockablock
Reminds me of the (apocryphal?) stories about colleges that pave only the
paths that people were already taking across their campuses.

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skilesare
[http://books.google.com/books?id=hwAHmktpk5IC&pg=PA111&lpg=P...](http://books.google.com/books?id=hwAHmktpk5IC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=pattern+language+minibus&source=bl&ots=luQpT5zZ5B&sig=Lep_DvxTQDEdgoHvMyORhRb6gRY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=28khU5vlIcmb2QXLmIGYCQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=pattern%20language%20minibus&f=false)

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mostly_harmless
I believe that the big shipping companies (UPS, Fedex), have algorithms
specifically designed around dynamic route planning like this. I wonder if it
would be feasible for one of them to create a spin off business for just this
purpose.

~~~
greglindahl
ArcGIS provides an API that does this, which is apparently used by all of the
major shippers. They occasionally show up at hackathons and give out free low-
usage accounts.

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dnautics
"detroit" (as in the community, not the municipal government) is doing
something similar, except it's privately run.
[http://thedetroitbus.com/](http://thedetroitbus.com/)

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snoldak924
Isn't this basically SuperShuttle?

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canistr
I suppose the pitch for such a service could be:

"crowd-sourced bus routes".

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MichaelTieso
I hate that I just saw the comments for that article.

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byteofprash
Mixed feelings for me. I wrote a paper on the very same thing, "Demand
responsive public transportation" but never really had the conviction to
implement it full scale as I thought it would simply fail in a country with
huge population as india, where there is always demand in all locations. It
would be interesting to see how it would fare in a densely populated route.

