
Something mysterious is blocking car key fobs from working in an Alberta town - drpgq
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/carstairs-westview-co-op-grocery-car-key-fob-1.4999558
======
rbritton
Failing transformers can cause an incredible amount of RF noise. A couple
years ago a failing fluorescent light ballast prevented my garage door opener
remote from working until it finally gave out (this was when I discovered it
as the cause), and it had enough residual power to maintain the interference
for a while even after being turned off.

~~~
Tiki
(On a much smaller scale) - I had a plasma ball toy as a kid, the kind you put
your finger on and the electricity arcs to your finger. One day I broke the
glass housing. Curious what would happen, I plugged it in - the radio in the
kitchen AND the TV in the living room both simultaneously wouldn't run when
the broken plasma bulb was plugged in. I did this several times as a prank on
unsuspecting family members and then the unit burned out/wouldn't turn on. I
still don't know how dangerous this was to do(if at all).

~~~
borgel
I used to enjoy wrapping a metal slinky around the base of mine. Then whenever
I touched metal to it I’d get little sparks. Must have been acting as an
antenna, but I wonder what exactly was going on.

~~~
superkuh
It's acting like a capacitor.

------
wolrah
Call in a couple of ham radio operators who like to foxhunt and they should be
able to point you in the general direction of the problem within minutes. If
the effects are as localized as they say it should be able to be pinpointed
within an hour.

~~~
Florin_Andrei
I'm a licensed HAM operator.

I would start with just listening broadband with an SDR for a while, just to
see what's really going on. Something ought to become visible in the spectrum,
at least intermittently.

Once you get the pattern, you could simply move around and measure the
relative intensities, map the numbers, and the epicenter ought to become more
or less obvious. Then close in with the SDR, watching the levels on the
screen, and hopefully you will walk right into the culprit.

An RTL-SDR is a few bucks on Amazon. The software is free. The only other
thing you need is a laptop.

~~~
lifeisstillgood
Can you write this up please - I have lived my whole life with these
mysterious radio wave thingamijigs suffusing my world and ... I just don't
know how to detect them. TV signals get fuzzy, my loudspeaker crackles just
before my phone rings, but being able to deliberately reach out and map them
seems almost like magic.

~~~
xnyan
[https://www.rtl-sdr.com/rtl-sdr-quick-start-guide/](https://www.rtl-
sdr.com/rtl-sdr-quick-start-guide/)

They sell a fancy dongle that works 'better' than an off the shelf model but
this $10 model will work just fine for learning:
[https://www.aliexpress.com/item/USB-2-0-Software-Radio-
DVB-T...](https://www.aliexpress.com/item/USB-2-0-Software-Radio-DVB-T-
RTL2832U-R820T2-SDR-Digital-TV-Receiver-Stick/32506410349.html)

~~~
jdietrich
If you can, I'd suggest spending a little more on either an RTL-SDR with a
built-in upconverter (~$30 on AliExpress) or an SDRplay RSP1A ($120 from Ham
Radio Outlet). An upconverter allows the RTL-SDR to operate in the crucial
bands below 30MHz; the SDRplay RSP1A has vastly better performance and will
pick up all sorts of signals that an RTL-SDR won't. The RTL-SDR is a really
cool and very cheap introduction to radio, but I think you might outgrow it
fairly quickly if you're technically-minded and have a serious interest in
radio.

I'd also suggest seriously considering getting an amateur radio license. It
isn't difficult or expensive in most countries, you'll learn a lot about radio
in the process and you'll gain the right to transmit on a wide range of
frequencies. The /r/amateurradio wiki is a useful starting point.

[https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hot-100KHz-1-7GHz-full-
band-...](https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hot-100KHz-1-7GHz-full-band-UV-HF-
RTL-SDR-USB-Tuner-Receiver-R820T-8232-Ham/32697306316.html)

[https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-015965](https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-015965)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/wiki/index#wiki_gettin...](https://www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/wiki/index#wiki_getting_started)

~~~
sciurus
You don't need an upconverter to receive HF on the version shipped by rtl-
sdr.com; it supports it via direct sampling mode. I've listened to plenty of
shortwave broadcasters and hams using it with a random wire antenna.

I did recently get an rsp1a as an upgrade once I realized how much fun I was
having. It seems better at rejecting noise but otherwise isn't that different
than my rtl-sdr. I need to get a windows install so I can use sdruno instead
of cubicsdr, though.

------
bb88
I have heard of loose electric pole hardware vibrating in the wind and causing
interference in the 400mhz range.

Basically they were looking to see if it was the source, and the guy banged
the pole with a hammer, and the banging showed up on the listening station
some 20 miles away.

~~~
apcragg
I've had a similar experience making an FM transmitter. I used a small air
coil inductor that wasn't well secured to the PCB as part of the resonating
circuit. My FM tuner would pick up ambient noise since the small sound
vibrations would ever so slightly change the size of the inductor, modulating
the frequency. Ceramic capacitors also have this problem. The small metal
'fingers' are susceptible to vibrations which change the plate distances, and
thus the capacitance. Use your imagination to think about cases when this
might be of interest for certain groups!

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
aka Microphonics.

------
calebio
It might not be the same, but this sounds similar to what happened in Eden,
North Carolina recently.

The gambling parlor next door were using jammers to keep "fish table" players
from cheating. This was affecting key fobs, car starts, etc. in a pretty big
radius around the location.

[https://www.greensboro.com/rockingham_now/business/customers...](https://www.greensboro.com/rockingham_now/business/customers-
cars-were-going-haywire-while-parked-at-an-
eden/article_f7f76a60-129d-11e9-ac55-370054ab3f40.html)

[https://www.greensboro.com/news/local_news/after-
complaints-...](https://www.greensboro.com/news/local_news/after-complaints-
eden-police-remove-jammers-from-sweepstakes-
parlor/article_0f679939-e928-593a-a1a9-0d97685202ec.html)

~~~
ryandrake
Hope the FCC comes down on them like a ton of bricks if they find that the
casino was using a jammer. Wonder if they even considered whether they could
be inadvertently jamming parts of the spectrum used by emergency services with
that thing.

~~~
jdietrich
_> Hope the FCC comes down on them like a ton of bricks_

Oh, they will. The FCC do not mess about when it comes to intentional
interference.

------
karambahh
In Lille, France, the automated guided «metro» public transport VAL206[0] is
known to block openning of some cars brands.

As it's aerial, in some places it's above ground with, you guessed it, car
parks below it.

The tow trucks make a killing with it because you (or your insurance...) pay a
full towing charge but your car only need to be towed like 5m for it to open
again.

Funnily enough, the RF interference does not prevent closing of the cars, only
opening :)

[0][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAL_206?wprov=sfla1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAL_206?wprov=sfla1)

~~~
vkou
Do people not understand how to use the dead-battery mode of their fob?

~~~
garyfirestorm
I don't think people know that their fob has metal key and the car has a metal
lock generally behind the door handle that you can slide in and open normally.

~~~
peteey
This does not start the car. Starting is a fairly important step.

~~~
tzs
It may not start the car, but will it at least let you put the car in neutral?

The poster a couple levels up said people where paying full towing price to
have cars moved 5m. If you can put the car in neutral you should be able to
push it that far yourself.

~~~
0db532a0
Not all cars are automatic. You might need to get hold of a hand instead.

~~~
palunon
Huh ? It's even simpler to put a manual car in neutral without the key. You
could even push start it.

The main problem would be having a locked driving wheel (common in France),
which may make pushing it 5 meters away impractical/impossible without lifting
the front wheels.

~~~
0db532a0
I will do my best never to make a joke on HN again.

------
Stratoscope
Interference can be a funny thing. We have several of these outdoor LEDs at
home:

[https://www.lampsplus.com/products/midland-9-inch-high-
dusk-...](https://www.lampsplus.com/products/midland-9-inch-high-dusk-to-dawn-
led-motion-sensor-light__8m841.html)

If I transmit with a two meter ham radio handheld near any of them at night,
the light turns off! When I stop transmitting, the light comes back on.

I haven't taken any time to troubleshoot this, but it would be interesting to
learn just why a two meter signal makes the light turn off.

~~~
op00to
You're overloading some "fused" or protected circuit in the little lights with
voltage where there's not expected to be voltage. After you stop transmitting,
it stops protecting itself.

------
andyidsinga
speaking about interference : moved my home office to a new spot in the house
the other day ago - which has 3 LED light bulbs for light in the space.

Turned on the ham radio - in scan mode - picked up someone talking, but
noticed a bunch of static also being picked up. Didn't think much of it until
I turned off the lights and the static went away. radio antenna was about 4
feet away from 2 diff bulbs (!).

These things are noisy ..thinking about trying a few diff brands to see if
there is a difference.

also thinking about borrowing a buddy's spectrum analyzer to see if I can
isolate the frequencies of the noise, might be able to put a a filter on the
antenna.

~~~
topspin
There are serious RF interference problems with some LED, CFL lights and
dimmer products. Even low power (5W) lights can swamp the spectrum badly
enough to jam out DAB and FM radio receivers.

[1] [http://www.ledbenchmark.com/faq/LED-interference-
issues.html](http://www.ledbenchmark.com/faq/LED-interference-issues.html)

~~~
tzs
Also from some monitors and TVs. My Samsung monitor spews all across the 1.25
meter ham band. The form of the interference is a serious of regularly spaced
narrow spikes across the whole band.

~~~
topspin
You might try adding snap-on ferrite beads to the power cord. If the monitor
has an external switching power supply you could try replacing it; some of
those are noisy. Otherwise, if it's an older monitor, the noise is probably
coming from the CCFL power inverter (an internal AC power supply that powers
the fluorescent backlight.) New monitors usually use LED backlighting.

------
vstuart
Solved

[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/carstairs-key-fob-
mys...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/carstairs-key-fob-mystery-
solved-grocery-store-1.5003043?cmp=rss)

"After investigation it was determined that there was faulty consumer
electronic equipment stuck in transmit mode in the area, which was causing the
interference. ... In this case, it was determined that it was a remote car
starter. It has since been deactivated and the interference has stopped ..."

------
gordaco
I wonder whether the atmospheric conditions have some unknown effect on
certain types of electronics, especially detectors of photons of any kind,
preventing them from working as intended.

Story time: a few years ago I used to work in a building which was intended
for many more workers than we actually were there (some floors were completely
empty). The garage was big and had parking places for a lot of us, but we were
only given a few electrionic keys for the garage door. A lot of us, including
me, came to work by bus, so basically there were parking places for all of
those who came by car, yet we only had like 10 keys for 20-25 people.

We knew that the keys were easy to disassemble and reassemble, so we devised a
solution: using arduino, we created a device that (via a cheap prepaid SIM
card) was capable of receiving phone calls, and when any of our numbers called
the device, an actuator pressed the internal components of the electronic key.
Pointing this device to a window near the garage door was good enough. So,
every morning, people called the number of the device, and just by doing that,
the door would open automatically.

The thing is: it always worked at the evening, between 16 and 18h. But in the
mornings, and especially in cloudy or misty mornings, sometimes it wouldn't
work. We tried to investigate but we never knew why this was.

I wonder if a similar phenomenon is happening here.

~~~
dragonwriter
> I wonder whether the atmospheric conditions have some unknown effect on
> certain types of electronics, especially detectors of photons of any kind,
> preventing them from working as intended.

Well, atmospheric conditions have pretty well known effects on electromagnetic
transmissions; the presence of water, particularly, interferes with (both
scaterring and attenuating) signals that would transmit well through dry air.

------
rkagerer
I'm confused - I submitted this story and identical link a day earlier but got
no traction. Not complaining, just wondering how Hacker News works.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19043315](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19043315)

~~~
sametmax
It's like when you tell a joke: who posts a link and when is as important as
the content of the link itself. It's unfair, but any human system is
influenced that way.

------
walrus01
Portable spectrum analyzers capable of up to 2500 MHz are not so expensive
these days. I'd bring a horn antenna and spectrum analyzer and start hunting.

~~~
quasse
North American cars generally use 315 MHz for the key fobs AFAIK, seems like a
hobbyist with an SDR + directional antenna could help clear this one up.

~~~
shittyadmin
At 315Mhz you might even be able to do it with a $10 RTL-SDR.

~~~
lozaning
I've captured my BMW's key fob signal with one of the cheapo RTL-SDR devices.
The little noolectric I've got has worked great.

------
heyjudy
Geez, that would suggest a massive amount of noise or deliberate jamming on
either or both 315 and 433.92 MHz, a mass delusion or something like helium
wrecking the clock circuit. We should send Dave from EEVblog and Thunderf00t
to investigate. ;)

------
tlrobinson
It sounds like all they've done to try to isolate the source of interference
is shut off the power to the nearest store. This probably shouldn't be a
national story until they look a little harder and can't figure it out...

~~~
bonestamp2
It sounds like they've brought in IC (Canadian version of FCC) to investigate
the interference. As for the news story, I guess they think they'll know the
answer soon so this is just a teaser so they can get everyone's clicks again
with a second story that answers it.

------
collsni
We had problems with Ford / lincoln in our parking lots. Idiots (car
manufacturers) are using a bands in the 800mhz to 900mhz range. We paid about
60,000 in towning fees before we swapped our digital sign board systems out.

------
Aloha
It's very likely one of two things - either the RFID Anti-Theft device the
store has, or an automatic door opener, both can cause spurious emissions in
the band that keyfobs use.

------
kilbuz
My car fob has never worked in the parking lot near the top of San Bruno
Mountain just south of SF. I've assumed the proximity to Radio Peak is the
culprit.

~~~
autocracy
Yup, also Twin Peaks near Sutro Tower. "Dead battery," mode doesn't work for
me either. So much fun.

~~~
myself248
Daaaang, that's got to be some power. I've looked at Sutro's architecture from
across the bay, but never got up close to see what's on it.

I have a keyless-only car now, and this sort of stuff worries me. "Dead
battery" mode has always saved me thus far, but in that situation? I'd be
hosed. Can't even put it in neutral and coast down the mountain. (Electronic
transmission, there's no shift-interlock bypass...)

------
3flp
I think their problem is in calling electricians. Wrong specialty..

------
sakopov
I had an interesting experience a couple of weeks ago. I woke up in the
morning and found that my phone is almost completely drained while it was
plugged into the outlet all night. I then tried another outlet and after
another no-go I checked to make sure I have electricity, which I did. I ended
up restarting the phone and it magically started charging again. I thought
nothing of it until that same morning I got to my car and was unable to unlock
it via key fob. However, it started working again when I tried it at my work's
parking lot. Maybe just a coincidence.

------
fuzzywalrus
I could see in a future where most cars are FOBs using a weaponized
interference to prevent people from accessing their cars. An authoritarian
regime might really enjoy that capability.

~~~
myself248
Or enemies who've spent the last decade systematically building a library of
vulnerabilities and footholds in tons of (government and consumer)
infrastructure.

Did you read the Valasek/Miller paper on the Jeep hack? For me, the technical
details were all well and good, but the most interesting bit was right in the
intrioduction -- Their research was funded by DARPA.

Wait, what?

Consider this: Everyone knows that water supplies and power grids are critical
infrastructure. Bridges and tunnels, too. Transit, obviously -- an attack on
the NYC subways would cripple the city. That's all understood and
appropriately protected.

But imagine an attack that caused 10% of the cars on the road _right now_ to
simply turn off, and not turn on again. Some folks would pull to the side, but
a lot wouldn't, and the roads would be an obstacle course for quite some time,
while every tow truck scrambled to clear them. In my mind, that's just as
crippling as shutting down a subway or an airport.

Individual vehicles haven't been thought of as critical infrastructure in the
past, because they weren't vulnerable to that sort of attack. But they're
becoming so, and in the most haphazard, security-what-security, if-it-
compiles-ship-it, sort of way. And I think DARPA's goal in sponsoring this
sort of research is to force people to realize that.

Because you bet the bad guys already know it.

------
simonblack
Wireless-controlled shopping trolleys (that put the brakes on if they're taken
outside the supermarket's property) causing radio interference?

~~~
blattimwind
Those are actually controlled by magnet strips in the floor.

------
keyfobfail
This happens to my car in the morning only. Not at night. Its flappin weird.

~~~
segfaultbuserr
It's coming from some equipment that get turned off at night.

------
myself248
If the signal is relatively constant, triangulation is fairly straightforward.
Hold the receiver against your chest and slowly turn in a circle. When you
find the minimum, the source is behind you and your body is blocking the
signal. Draw a line on a map, move to another location, and repeat.

You can do this with a $26 antenna on a $25 RTLSDR on a $5 OTG cable plugged
into any random Android phone. It takes a minute to install the spectrum
analyzer app, probably two minutes to plug everything together, and about a
minute per "reading". The rest of your time is spent driving.

This is a massively fun hobby I would encourage anyone reading this to
consider. Start at the rtl-sdr.com blog and read some archives, there's a
ludicrous amount of stuff within the reach of this incredibly cheap receiver.

------
bluedino
I guess having only 1% of the e-commerce market in China has a bright side.

------
KiDD
They should have called a HAM

------
standardUser
Maybe someone can bring this same technology to San Francisco and other
crowded urban areas. It's endlessly annoying that every car lock/unlock these
days has to be accompanied by a HONK.

~~~
rhcom2
Without that honk I'd still be stuck in a parking garage in Atlantic City
wandering around looking for my car.

~~~
totesraunch
Take a photo of your cars location and parking level info with your phone.

~~~
snazz
That requires remembering to do so beforehand, though.

~~~
Scoundreller
A bad experience does the job.

