
TikTok to Sue Trump Administration over Ban, as Soon as Tuesday - miscon
https://www.npr.org/2020/08/08/900394707/tiktok-to-sue-trump-administration-over-ban-as-soon-as-tuesday?sc=18&f=900394707
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carlosdp
> The source familiar with TikTok's internal discussions on the matter says
> the president's order appeared rushed and did not include carveouts or
> exceptions for TikTok to maintain any legal representation, which the
> company plans to argue is a violation of due process rights.

This is the important part for me and the reason the order could actually be
overturned and need to be redone.

The administration keeps doing these half-assed orders that would go through
fine if they just did the process correctly, but for one reason or another
they seem incapable of it.

~~~
r00fus
Is it possible that the administration doesn’t actually want to ban Tik-Tok
but simply remove them as a factor for the election?

~~~
foogazi
Is Tik-Tok considered an election factor?

~~~
newen
Rumor is it was the TikTok Teens who made Trump's recent rally such a disaster
by mass registering for tickets and not attending.

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m0zg
Note at the end: "TikTok helps fund NPR content that appears on the social
media platform."

~~~
mosselman
What are you trying to say?

You make it sound as if you did some investigations and found this out on your
own, yet the statement is right there. In order for your comment to be
meaningful it would need to include something more than just the excerpt, like
an analysis or opinion.

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slowhadoken
Seems bold considering China’s firewall and all the US social media and chat
apps it’s banned.

~~~
watwut
"China does it too" is not as strong argument as it sounds.

~~~
ytch
It's how reciprocity in international trade works.

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mike503
Anyone else find it amusing one of the biggest “things” going on at the moment
is not a global pandemic, racial injustice/social activism, but the country
banning a silly social media platform? :)

~~~
boublepop
The main reason it’s being banned by Trump is very likely because it has been
an extremely effective platform for sharing videos of police and military
brutality against the protesting population of America and of cause pro-
science/anti Trumpism content telling people to wear masks and social
distance.

This isn’t just a silly app being banned. This is a major blow against freedom
of speech being pushed forwards with a silly cover excuse of “national
security” all happening up to an election.

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Firebrand
Is this an attempt by ByteDance to retain control of the company?

~~~
frank2
It is an attempt by ByteDance to eliminate any pressing need to sell their US
customers to a non-Chinese company.

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627467
Various sides fighting a proxy PR war in election year and media (and
tecnorati) taking the bait...

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justinzollars
I support TikTok in this matter. I'm not comfortable with the United States
banning companies. We should strive to be the best place on earth to do
business in. We are an open country and we benefit from being open. We benefit
from competition.

If I'm afraid China is taking my personal information, it's up to me, the
consumer, to delete the app. It's up to Apple to design APIs to prevent real
theft of such things as passwords left on your clipboard, or location data.

Many people will point to the fact that TikTok is controlled by a single
party, the CCP, and may push various points of view. I don't see how that is
different than Twitter whose employees give to the Democrats at a North Korean
level of popular support [1] (99.8% of political gifts given to non GOP
candidates). Twitter famously shadow ban conservatives, cause liberal ideas to
"trend", and push a political agenda even if I'm there just for technology
news.

Again, comparing TikTok to Twitter, when I load TikTok I see music videos and
no politics. When I load Twitter I see riots, violence and people complaining
about Trump (24/7 365). It's like looking into the depths of the abyss.
Twitter provides a platform for countries to threaten one another, for example
Iran threatens Israel on its platform. TikTok provides a platform to make
music videos. How is again Twitter superior?

One other point, I wish to make is the way we are handling the transfer of
TikTok to Microsoft. We are literally taking TikTok's business and giving it
to Microsoft with a "Big fee" paid to the Federal Government. Considering
China's history, this will offend them. What if they did the same thing to us?
What if they did not trust Apple's business in China? What if they stole
Apple's Chinese business, and gave it to Tencent with a fee paid to the CCP?

TikTok is a major accomplishment because it's the first US top rated social
network not designed in the United States. This is something to be celebrated
and a cause to inspire us to compete to make something even better. Taking it,
transferring it or banning it is not the way to go.

[1] [https://www.fec.gov/data/receipts/individual-
contributions/?...](https://www.fec.gov/data/receipts/individual-
contributions/?contributor_employer=twitter&two_year_transaction_period=2020&min_date=01%2F01%2F2019&max_date=12%2F31%2F2020)

~~~
reeealloc
Your points about TikTok's content compared to Twitter's content are
interesting, but seem anecdotal and personal to you. I use Twitter almost
exclusively for art, and I try to avoid any politics trending or people
attacking each other or Trump. TikTok has an abundance of politically-charged
content from people with different political views, but it's just not always
on the surface (although sometimes it is).

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seanmcdirmid
Completely expected. Trump doesn’t really have a good track record in coming
up with legal executive orders, while Tiktok is completely in their rights to
contest this order. And...judicial review is what sets the USA apart from
China.

~~~
djsumdog
You realize US presidents have imposed embargo via executive orders against
nations for decades right? Cuba? Huawei?

Whether you think it's right or wrong, legally, it has prescient.

~~~
carlosdp
That's not what he means. They consistently pass exec orders that at the core
would be legal, if they allowed for due process, but they rush it or are
incompetent so they get overturned.

In this case, the order bans any US citizen from doing business with
ByteDance, and doesn't make a carve out for retaining a US lawyer, which is a
violation of due process and means a judge could overturn the order.

If they just added that carve out, it would probably be entirely legally
defensible. That one dumb mis-step could mean it gets overturned. This keeps
happening with the Trump admin, it's the same reason the DACA repeal was
overturned by the supreme court.

~~~
oh_sigh
There is no requirement that US based lawyers must be US citizens.

~~~
carlosdp
There is very much a constitutional requirement that the government can't tell
you you can't have the lawyer you want because they are a US citizen. That's a
clear violation of the 14th amendment right to due process...

~~~
oh_sigh
A part of due process is the opportunity to be represented by counsel. Unless
there are few or no quality lawyers who are not US citizens, I don't see how
this would infringe on anyone's due process. Not being able to get the exact
lawyer you want is not the same as your due process being violated.

~~~
carlosdp
> Not being able to get the exact lawyer you want is not the same as your due
> process being violated.

It absolutely is.

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Hnaomyiph
Just wait until the CCP gets their pile of lawsuits over unfair tech bans. Oh
wait...

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nine_zeros
I am not opposed to a ban. However, I am opposed to the executive having the
power to force companies (foreign or otherwise) to sell assets.

We are really entering developing country territory here.

~~~
chrisco255
They're not forced to sell. They would simply lose access to the US market.
They've already lost access to the Indian market.

~~~
nine_zeros
No. Trumps delayed ban is for a wiggle room for an American company
(Microsoft) to acquire US and other non-China assets.

This effectively means that the app is not a national security threat but the
ownership of it is.

And that threat was as determined by the executive without any charges.

I am opposed to such unilateral powers where the executive plays godfather and
decides the rules of the game.

~~~
abc-xyz
Are you against executive orders in general or just this one?

Because surely one of the most popular social media platforms in the world,
operated by the enemy, with access to troves of personal user data that can be
used for election interference, blackmail, propaganda, etc. is a national
security threat.

And yes, other social media platforms, including Facebook, pose national
security threats as well, but it’s up to the elected officials to decide how
significant the threat is, and when/if it’s necessary to take action. With
regard to TikTok and WeChat, I’d say it’s long overdue, and I personally hope
the list will be expanded to include all software and hardware operated by
Chinese companies.

~~~
nine_zeros
I am against this one. If Congress comes with a bill which clearly defined
which companies can be banned or forced to sell assets, I am ok with it
because the rules are clearly defined.

However, with an executive order as this one, the rules of "national security"
will keep changing with the political desires of the president in charge.
Maybe someday a President will come and ask you to divest your Tesla shares
because the President at the time doesn't like Elon musk. This is too much
power in the hands of one person, especially an erratic one as the current
POTUS.

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blumomo
Here‘s a slightly related HN post which just makes it to the HN front page as
well:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24090923](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24090923)

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boublepop
Seems natural. The only proof he has of the claims of risks against national
security seems to be his typical wild ramblings of “a lot of people say!
Everyone knows! Just read the manuals, read the books!” While not being able
to mention a single name or fact.

If trump forces trough this sale, the EU are bring morons if they don’t
forcefully take over EU facebooks and LinkedIn business by Wednesday next
week.

~~~
dodobirdlord
The claim isn’t a dispute about the legitimacy of the national security
grounds, that will probably come later. The claim is that the EO prohibits
retaining US lawyers, which is pretty clearly a violation of due process.

~~~
blisseyGo
Regarding the retaining US lawyers part - I think it would fall under FARA:

[https://www.justice.gov/nsd-fara](https://www.justice.gov/nsd-fara)

~~~
dodobirdlord
The EO imposes a prohibition on financial transactions between US citizens
(and probably also residents?) and ByteDance, so they wouldn't be able to pay
their lawyers even if registered. So it's essentially a ban on having lawyers

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techntoke
I'd start the questioning like this...

"On an average day how many kids under 13 do you think join TikTok without
their parents knowledge?"

"On an average day, how many teens under 18 and preteens dance in a manner
that would be considered provocative on your platform?"

~~~
kccqzy
If the reason for banning TikTok is to "protect the kids" why not say so in
the order, instead of using some vague "national security" excuse? Clearly the
TikTok ban had nothing to do with young kids using it or dancing
provocatively, and the administration clearly isn't thinking about the kids
when the ban was ordered.

~~~
cmurf
It's retaliation, both for the kids and for TikTok, for snatching up all those
Tulsa Trump rally tickets, and making him look bad because fewer people showed
up.

