
Ask HN: Washing out, and what to do next - EVdotIO
I&#x27;ve been programming professionally for the better part of 7 years now, and can pretty confidently say I will not be doing that anymore. Worked in the bay area for a company and quit after a few years following a series of layoffs hitting my department. Then basically had two jobs where I only lasted for less than a year in each. Washed out.<p>Moved out of state and had two other jobs programming. The first didn&#x27;t have enough work to keep me around, and started the second. I just quit that one after 8 months. It is probably my last as a programmer, my resume just has too many red flags from a hiring perspective, and are probably right in their assumption, along with my wariness of the field as a whole.<p>My question is, how did you folks out there find another career? DJing a strip club, no joke, is not going to be a viable long term solution, and for the first time have _no_ clue what to do next. No debt, children or any serious obligations, only caveat would be lack of higher education, so I can entertain a bunch of options.<p>What did you do to start a new chapter? Not trying to drum up a pity party, just looking for fresh perspectives out there on stepping into the unknown.
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akamaka
I've never lasted more than 1 year at a programming job, either.

My solution is to take contract work. It helps so much to know that there is a
definite end date coming up where I can step away from the company and forget
about all of the nonsense. Having time off between contracts helps me recover
from the hard work and overtime. It also has a second benefit of allowing me
to charge a higher rate, because sometimes companies value a person who is
available to jump in at a moment's notice to help with a crisis.

Having a decade of short-term jobs listed on my resume might sound bad, but
it's worked out very well for me, in compensation and in skills development.
Rather than be negative about not lasting long at one company, why not be
proud of the diversity of experience you have and at how comfortable you are
with joining a brand new team?

~~~
EVdotIO
How do you have multiple short term stints? Do you flat out say you are only
looking to join for a short period of time? Are they looking for experts in a
particular niche or is there a market for generalists?

I also really need to step my marketing game up.

~~~
dceddia
Re: the marketing side of things, if you don't already have a blog, start one
today. Write about how to solve problems in your particular area of expertise
(or the one you'd like to get hired for). Start a mailing list, and send your
weekly articles out to the list. I've done basically this, and after 3 years
running, built up quite a bit of traffic and email subscriber base, and some
passive-ish side income (I wrote a book that I sell as well).

This is not a quick tactic, but it is a good longer-term strategy for building
a following and a reputation.

~~~
EVdotIO
Yeah, I need to actually get my domain name doing something. Looks like that's
what I am doing today.

~~~
dceddia
Just a quick bit of advice/warning about that too -- we programmer types
_love_ to obsess over the tiny details like picking the perfect blog theme,
the best static site generator that will never need to change, debating
minutiae like S3 vs self-hosted vs Wordpress, and on and on.

So my bit of advice is: none of that actually matters. Use the domain you have
(sounds like you are!), pick the easiest platform to get started with, and
write stuff. It's the writing stuff (and publishing it) that matters :)

~~~
EVdotIO
Tell me about it. It used to be a home hosted plan 9 server. Then have been on
a Vue kick recently.

Slapping something together quick and dirty.

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nathanaldensr
I am dealing with this dilemma right now. I am considered by most of my former
colleagues to be a top performer, a great teammate and mentor, etc. and yet
because I got unlucky and landed with some less-than-ethical companies, I feel
like I've been branded. Because I decided to take a stand at those jobs and
quit due to what I considered meanspirited or unethical behavior, my resume
makes me _appear_ flighty, when it reality it says more about the companies I
worked for than it does about me.

Just a few hours ago, I got off a recruiter phone call where the woman wanted
me to sugar-coat my history with my former employers when I went to interview.
I told her, "No, if they ask what happened I have no issues telling them." If
you're an interviewer and you get offended by me stating the facts--that many
companies just downright _suck_ \--then that tells me all I need to know about
your own insecurities.

~~~
_lex
This approach may make sense if you're either uniquely qualified or willing to
speak to a lot of companies.

You are basically signaling what type of person you are, divulging critical
information to the hiring manager when you do this.

Specifically, you are saying that you will not put up with BS. The problem is,
work is generally at least 60% BS, and as a hiring manager, you want someone
who will put up with the shit to get to the glory. And you really want someone
who believes there is glory to be had - that person will outwork anyone else.

So you've signaled that you will not outwork others and that you will not put
up with BS - you're interviewing and have already exposed yourself as a flight
risk willing to do less than a theoretical other person would.

So yeah, they will pass on you in droves unless you have some unique aspect to
your profile that makes you uniquely qualified.

Did you write the book on what the company is trying to do? If yes, more power
to you - people put up with Steve Jobs to get access to his potential. Maybe
you're worth it.

If not, you'll have to find someone who appreciates you and your values. And
forget company value statements - that shit means nothing in the day-to-day.
What you're basically looking for is a hiring manager with strong values
aligned to yours, who also has the power to do the hire. And you'll find him
if you look hard enough.

~~~
nathanaldensr
I have been trying my hardest to find such a hiring manager, but at a certain
point one starts to wonder if they exist at all.

Why does the responsibility for toxic culture and unethical behavior fall on
me, the applicant, the one with the least amount of power and leverage in the
interview process? Why do companies get free passes on ridiculous behavior
while I am supposed to compromise what I believe in to placate others? I'm
asking a philosophical question, of course, but it's an important one: If not
enough people stand up for themselves, we get worker mistreatment and toxic
work environments.

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satokema
Is having short job stints that huge of a red flag?

I am not 100% done with programming as a career, but it turns out that most of
my project stints were shorter and barely lasting a year.

Besides that, there is a huge question mark in the middle of my resume where I
was doing contract work which wasn't regular for the time period, but it was
pretty interesting compared to going to a soulless Open Workspace! for forty
hours a week and put me in constant contact with the local startup culture.

If anything, I'm leaning towards doing remote stuff again, but it's pretty
hard to find and I've already sworn off Elance/ODesk.

~~~
pkaye
What is considered a short job stint depends on the industry and how long an
average project takes. For example embedded programming and hardware can have
projects taking 1-2 years to develop so ideally you want people who stuck
through a complete project. In other industries, projects might be much
shorter.

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VLM
Generally the more legacy/boomer an organization is,the more it requires
higher ed. So the peace corps is out of the question, but americorps has some
openings you'd qualify for. The lack of obligations and youth look very
military... impossible to tell if the military would work for you; consider
all the branches including the coast guard. Habitat for Humanity is a
surprisingly efficient way to meet skilled trades workers, if you've never
done the work before maybe you have an unknown skill for plumbing or
electrician work; the pay can be better than programming, much more
opportunity to move up in the field or start a company, and there's not as
much ageism or weird political requirements as programming.

~~~
EVdotIO
When I was younger, I actually seriously considered being a navy nuke.

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mabbo
I can't say I went full "wash out" but I did need a break from coding. From
software development generally. So I switched to a role where I don't code but
instead setup tech, install software on site at warehouses (Amazon).

My knowledge of how software works, and my ability to dive into the codebase
to understand why something isn't working gives me a huge edge in this role.
The fact that I like the space I'm in keeps me interested. Management like
that I have the knowledge and skills I have and so I'm paid well enough for
it. But all the while, I'm not doing the 9-to-5 code monkey stuff anymore. I
don't know that I'll do this forever- some parts of coding draw me back- but
it's a nice vacation from my career for a few years.

So my advice: find something you're interested in that has tech involved
somehow. Go to the business or application side and find a role there where
your background and knowledge is a major asset. Maybe even reach out to some
companies you think might have or need such roles and explain yourself.

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jconley
It really depends on why you washed out...

If you just crave variety, then doing short consulting contracts might be
interesting to you. Recruiters are always looking for people to do 6mo
contracts.

~~~
theandrewbailey
It sounds like some of the jobs the poster had ended due to things outside his
control. For the rest: Did he decide that he didn't like the line of work? Was
he anxious to rebuild everything with the JS framework he saw last night, but
couldn't?

~~~
EVdotIO
I'm fairly pragmatic when it comes to tech. With my last job it was heavy on
HTML and CSS which I was fairly green at (alright -> decent at now), and there
you could say I was a little over my head, but I don't think there were any
conceptual issues I couldn't grasp. Obviously you can spend a lifetime
learning on how to best rendering pages and modern browsers.

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thecolorblue
Programming can be so different just switching from one industry to another or
one sized company to another. If you hate javascript, try embedded C++, or
visa-versa.

People overlook red flags on a resume if you are the right fit. I have
switched jobs just about once a year for 5 years and I still find jobs if I
look in the right place. There are always people looking for talented people
who do not fit into the mold of a perfect hire. Do not let a couple short gigs
dissuade you.

~~~
EVdotIO
A language is a language, and pretty much all aspects of computers I like.

The hiring process is something I would be totally alright with never doing
again. Along with the hours at some places and with the feeling you need to
take a job. I haven't had options when it comes to work. I'll take it if you
give it to me.

I did RoR development back in the day, and worked on interesting challenges
shoehorning that to scale for a fairly successful game. Worked with node and a
smattering of mobile.

How do you break into other fields?

Tech around me is mainly medical and then aerospace.

------
justinlilly
I have a friend who left tech and went to art school. Now makes puppets for a
popular TV show.

Find something that makes money, retrain, get it done.

Hard to say what you should go to without knowing what you disliked about the
current thing.

~~~
EVdotIO
I was primarily in gaming, and I know it's not the same across the board, but
with "work" I can't say there was anything I disliked. Honestly I enjoy the
technical challenges and problems of programming.

Issues I had: Crazy hours, the interview process... and with the bay area the
CoL. Last job was a little more complicated, but I would say I need a certain
degree of autonomy. Things were measured to 15 minute intervals on tickets,
and I couldn't do it.

Retraining... I have thought about this. I don't know if something like CNC
operator is the way to go, or follow a passion. No clue on what to look for or
what makes sense. Don't know bang for your buck works there.

~~~
itamarst
It sounds like you've just had bad jobs. Measuring by 15 minute increments is
crazy. It's quite possible to work sane hours (I even wrote a book about it:
[https://codewithoutrules.com/saneworkweek/](https://codewithoutrules.com/saneworkweek/)).

How about visiting [https://www.keyvalues.com](https://www.keyvalues.com),
seeing which things interest you, and see what companies meet your interests?
As others have said, there's huge amount of variety in jobs and companies.

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pascalxus
Well, you might now want to give up yet. I remember, in the beginning of my
career, i never lasted more than 1 or 2 years at a given company. Then one
day, I found the right company and worked there for 6 years!

LinkedIn Resumes are filled with software engineers who don't last longer than
12 months, just look at all your coworker's linkedIn profiles. It's not that
uncommon.

~~~
theonething
I also have had a similar experience early in my career of shorter stints.

If you don't mind sharing, what were some attributes that made the company the
right one and what were attributes of the companies you didn't like?

~~~
pascalxus
The good company i stayed with for a long time had a culture of good work life
balance, excellent management, and the tech stack was a perfect fit for my
development. Plus, I got the luck of being on a product that remained in
existence for five years, which is pretty rare. Most of the time when people
get laid off, its because the product they're working on died.

Bad companies typically have low retention and are always losing employees for
one reason or another.

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lynnetye
As scary as it may be to start anew, I hope you're also really excited! I've
changed careers twice now (maybe three times actually) since graduating
college in 2010. I think the best thing you can do is take a real step back
and think long and hard about what your personal values are. What exactly are
you trying to optimize for? What energizes you? What drains you?

I try to do this exercise at least once a year. It helps me to distill what it
is exactly I'm working towards. Your values will change over the course of
your life and it's important to continuously re-evaluate what matters to you
now. With your values in mind, you can then make sure that your behaviors are
in line with what you care about most. Having a general "north star" will help
you evaluate different options as you continue to brainstorm and think about
what you want to do next.

Good luck! And congratulations! :D

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snomad
What attracted you to software? What didn't you like?

Maybe you want another IT position, just not software (ie have you looked into
hardware or networking)

Their are many good middle class careers to be had - big city, small town,
blue collar, or white collar. Narrow it down by your life preferences.

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vorpalhex
We need more information about why you didn't like programming. Assuming that
you need a job now as opposed to in four years, your best bet is likely
something along the lines of technical sales or something else where you can
use your work history to your benefit.

~~~
EVdotIO
Pretty much what I know of sales is from The Office and Glengarry Glen Ross.
What's a day in the life of that usually like?

~~~
webmaven
Technical sales (or Sales Engineer) work can vary a _lot_. If you're working
for a regional VAR much of your interaction may be on the phone, but working
for an Enterprise Software vendor you'll often find yourself on a plane
heading to and from the customer's location to gather requirements and make
presentations in person. YMMV.

BTW, you might also consider working for one of the big consulting outfits,
especially if travel is appealing to you, as an alternative to temporary
contract work.

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thrownaway954
Long story short... everyone wants programmers that are young and want to
change the world. When you're over 40, that doesn't go well, however that
doesn't mean you have to get out of tech, just shift you're focus like I did
:)

I became a security analyst. It's a way easier (though be it, less exciting)
gig than being a programmer. Also being a programmer gave me a boost in a
bunch of the domains (CISSP talk there) that cover the profession.

A bunch of other people I know have moved to other areas like:

Database Administrator, Network Administrator, System Administrator, Quality
Assurance Analyst

Point is, you have WAAAAAAAAY more talents in those bones of your than you are
willing to give yourself credit for... Don't give up yet!!!

~~~
n3d1m
Not sure I agree with your statements that everyone wants programmers that are
young and want to change the world. It may be a SF/Valley thing, I don't know.
Definitelly not NYC. Companies are desperatelly looking for people who know
what they're doing, that have been on many projects. That have shit in
production. Those people are hard to find.

I'm in the same age group as you. I've never coded more or better in my life
and I don't see that changing any time soon.

------
EliRivers
Now that you've had seven years in the workplace, do you know what you'd like
to learn? Education is wasted on the young. People with your experience,
finding the right skill or trade or subject to study, can find it truly
fulfilling and satisfying.

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godot
Are you washed out of programming in general, or just working for employers?
You could take some time to work on your own projects to see how you like it.
It's probably going to be zero income for a while, so if you're prepared for
that, you'll be ok. After a while of that if you start making small amount of
income, you may decide to continue down that path. And when you do, moving to
a low living cost area (like Chiang Mai, Thailand for many ex-pats/digital
nomads) might help also.

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n3d1m
Do you like programming?

If the answer is yes, then don't give up. Move. Go to NYC or Chicago. Talk to
few recruiters and have them help you "polish" your resume so that things you
might consider harmful would not be prominent.

I'm always fascinated by people who start in the field and then change their
minds. Obviously if you've never liked it then do something else, open a surf
shop or taco stand. But as far as programming, for the foreseeable future it
will be in high demand.

Seriously, don't give up!

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markfer
You should look into Sales. Incredibly high earning potential, and one of the
few industries where higher education doesn't matter. Feel free to PM if I can
help at all.

~~~
jaggederest
Can you elaborate here a bit? What are the steps to get into it? I could use
some sales skills, I'm currently running a consultancy and keeping the deal
flow steady is a pain in my ass.

~~~
markfer
Sure. Usually for sales you enter in as an entry level role, and then progress
based on attainment and success. After a few years it's easily possible to be
a Manager, Senior Manager, or even a Director (if you're amazing).

I actually provide one-on-one consulting for tech freelancers and founders, if
you're interested.

[1] www.sellsomemore.com

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timwaagh
I'm as jaded washed out and cynical as it gets and have been since I started
this career four years ago. but at the end of the day you need a job. If you
have other options that's great. Use them. Nobody really becomes a better
version of himself by coding, trust me on it. If you don't, that's fine. If
you have experience and are willing to take low pay, you will be able to land
coding jobs.

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rossdavidh
Did you not like programming, or not like something about your employment
other than the programming? Do you like programming on your own, as a hobby?
What the right thing to do is depends a lot on which thing you disliked about
your previous jobs.

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6nf
Go into management, product management etc. No need to program but knowing
what it's like is a big plus.

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helvetican
1.Travel,see the world.It will give you more time and perspective to think
2.Re-educate yourself.

