
House cats have more impact on local wildlife than wild predators - nkzednan
https://www.npr.org/2020/04/18/820953617/the-killer-at-home-house-cats-have-more-impact-on-local-wildlife-than-wild-preda
======
bangonkeyboard
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife)

 _" As an invasive species and superpredator, they do considerable ecological
damage. In Australia, hunting by cats helped to drive at least 20 native
mammals to extinction, and continues to threaten at least 124 more. Their
introduction has caused the extinction of at least 33 endemic species on
islands throughout the world. Feral and domestic cats kill billions of birds
in the United States every year, where songbird populations continue to
decline."_

------
pjc50
This, incidentally, is why I don't take people who make the "wind turbines
kill birds" argument seriously. It's not false, but the number is very small
compared to those killed by domestic cats and window collisions. So the loss
is minimal provided they're not in a breeding area for an endangered species.

~~~
grawprog
Wind turbines also kill bats,

[http://www.batcon.org/resources/for-specific-issues/wind-
pow...](http://www.batcon.org/resources/for-specific-issues/wind-power)

>Current research suggests that the overwhelming majority of bat fatalities
are caused by collisions with turbine blades. There is some evidence to
suggest that a phenomenon known as barotrauma may result in a small proportion
of bat deaths, as well. Barotrauma involves tissue damage to air-containing
structures, such as lungs, caused by rapid or excessive pressure change. Air
pressure changes can occur at the edges of moving turbine blades and may help
explain some bat fatalities.

>Between 2000 and 2011, an estimated 650,000 to 1.3 million bats have died
from collisions with wind turbines in the United States and Canada (Arnett and
Baerwald 2013). Additionally, as many as 400,000 estimated fatalities may have
occurred in 2012.

>in the U.S. and Canada, at least 24 species of bats have been reported as
killed by wind turbines. The hoary bat (Lasiurus cinereus), eastern red bat
(Lasiurus borealis) and silver-haired bat (Lasionycteris noctivagans), all
migratory tree bats, account for nearly 78% of the kills north of Mexico. The
hoary bat accounts for 38% of the fatalities. A new study that looked at hoary
bat mortality at wind energy facilities during 2014 revealed that populations
of the species may plunge by a staggering 90 percent in the next 50 years if
no action is taken.

>At some sites in the Midwest and Eastern U.S., species that are already
battered by White-nose Syndrome (WNS), can account for up to 60% of wind-
energy fatalities.

Two federally endangered species, the Hawaiian hoary bat (Lasiurus cinereus
semotus) and the Indiana myotis (Myotis sodalis), also have been killed by
turbines.

~~~
gorgoiler
Do turbine installations use bat deterrents to drive populations to safety?

------
jfoucher
The only effective solution I have found so far to prevent my cat from hunting
too many small animals is to have her wear a bell. Is seems that prey are
scared away and manage to escape. Before we put it on we used to find dead
mice, lizards and birds everyday in the garden or in front of the door...

~~~
93po
Why not keep her indoors? It's much safer for her and doubles life expectancy
and doesn't contribute to the problem being discussed

------
BostonFern
I've spent a lot of time living around wild cats, and I've yet to see a cat
hunt a bird. Of course cats do hunt birds, but I'm very curious about how
these figures are reached, in this case, how reliable those isotope studies
are.

Incidentally, here's a critical take of a study on the amount of wildlife cats
kill that made headlines in 2013 cited in the article, also by NPR:
[https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/02/03/170851048/do-
we...](https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/02/03/170851048/do-we-really-
know-that-cats-kill-by-the-billions-not-so-fast)

~~~
shepardrtc
A published study is more reliable than anecdotal evidence.

~~~
dang
" _Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone
says, not a weaker one that 's easier to criticize._"

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
Tade0
For this reason we walk our cat. With some training (and some - not all -
cats) you can even get rid of the leash and let the animal roam whilst
maintaining visual contact.

It's very different from walking a dog. Ours usually hides in his favourite
spot and just sits there for 20 minutes straight, then takes his usual route,
sniffing and rubbing his face on places where apparently other cats have been.

The upside is that you only need to do that once every 2-3 days.

Now that we're on quarantine he's been calling out other cats from the
balcony. Fortunately on Monday we'll be allowed outside, so he'll get the
chance to catch up with his buddies - or actually - their scents.

~~~
hanniabu
I'm what you would call an accidental crazy cat person that started off
feeding one feral cat but was unable to catch and get fixed and wound up
multiplying (finally have it under control). One of the cats was great and
would just naturally walk with you. We live about a block away from a grocery
store and it would walk with us to the start of the parking lot where we'd
just tell him stay and he lays down and waits until we come back and walks
with us back to the house. People would always be amused seeing this and how
much it resembled the behavior of a dog. Probably one of the best cats we've
had.

~~~
janderland
My family owner over 20 cats (some died) before I turned 18. Same reason: we
didn’t fix the first female. My favorite cat would always take walks with me
around the block. She passed away while I was in college. Really showed me how
cool of a pet a cat can be.

------
jld
Is there any ethical and easy way to keep cats out of my yard?

I live in an suburban single family neighborhood where the houses are close
together. (5000sq lots) There are 3 or 4 different solitary cats I see
slinking through my yard from time to time. They all seem like outdoor house
cats as opposed to feral cats.

I try to hiss at them and scare them off but they come back. Is there a method
that will encourage them to avoid my yard?

~~~
thomk
Are they causing a specific problem? They are probably keeping your house
rodent free.

~~~
youngtaff
In my case they crap in my vegetable patch, and it contains toxoplasmosis

~~~
pvaldes
> they crap in my vegetable patch, and it contains toxoplasmosis

Each cat can release toxoplasm parasites once, maybe for less than two weeks
in 12 years, if healthy

If you have an old cat in your garden is removing toxoplasmosis (killing
rodents that act also as hosts and crap also over your kale and under your
carrots).

If you kill this cat or chase it off your garden, then new cats will apear and
refill the territory. Think that you could be increasing the risk, in fact.
Not to mention that people can pick up toxoplasm perfectly in a supermarket
can of soup / rodent dance-floor. If you want cats out of your vegetables
install sprinklers.

If you are concerned about the cat effect in birds, just add more natural
areas and tall trees

~~~
youngtaff
So what, why should I have to clean up the crap from someone else's cat?

~~~
pvaldes
Dunno..., why someone else's cat should be cleaning your garden of mice and
rats for free?

Life is full of "why me?" and little dramas... If you want my silly advice,
just try to enjoy it more.

------
qchris
Vice Media did a video about the impact of the feral cat population on
Australian wildlife, and the hunters/trappers that are working to cut down on
their population[1]. Some of the imagery can be a little brutal if you're
averse to that sort of thing, but I found it to be fairly interesting from a
conservation methods perspective. It reminds me a little of the work being
done in the American South on trying to keep down wild pig and python
populations.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b93IBwJ_Yow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b93IBwJ_Yow)

~~~
BostonFern
There are similar efforts to reduce wild dog populations in Australia, which
Vice has also covered[1].

One thing that stuck with me after watching both videos is that Youtube posts
a content warning on the video showing dogs being hunted, but not the feral
cat equivalent.

From a conservation perspective, I'm skeptical that hunting dogs and cats with
traps and rifles will have much of an impact on Australian wildlife.

[1]
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mioD47T8-YM](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mioD47T8-YM)

------
loso
The fact that cats hunt have been helpful to me in the past. Twice while I was
living in an apartment building all of my neighbors had problems with mice.
Once in New York and once in Massachusetts. In Massachusetts before my
girlfriend came to live with me, I would see the mice. After she came to live
with me with her cats, never saw them again. The same when we moved to NYC.
While my neighbors all had rotten issues I never saw one mouse or rat in my
apartment the entire 8 years living there.

~~~
theshrike79
Statistically, cats are really bad at catching mice. They might catch one,
maybe kill it, maybe not. Maybe they'll just play with it and let it go.

Terriers on the other hand... [https://youtu.be/l2Pyu-
Cj0gg](https://youtu.be/l2Pyu-Cj0gg)

~~~
TulliusCicero
Maybe them being around still scares the mice enough?

------
candyman
I used to battle with mice all the time at my little cabin in the woods and
then a neighbor moved in with a cat that "hunts" outside my cabin all night.
Haven't had a mouse problem in years. I've never seen a dead bird anywhere and
the cat never seems to hunt during the day.

~~~
e40
I had a destructive mouse and rat problem (chewing things in the walls) until
a cat adopted us.

------
kenned3
As a dog owner, i have always wondered why my indoor dog needs an annual
license, while my neighbourhood is saturated in unlicensed "wild" cats??

Seems like utter crap, and it is clear the cats are killing the local birds.

~~~
Spoppys
Because dogs pose a substantially greater threat to human life than cats do.

~~~
djrogers
I’m sorry, but that’s a severe over-generalization. My 6lb 3-legged rescue is
far less of a threat to humans than even a small kitten...

~~~
matchbok
Anecdotes != argument. Even the average sized dog can do 10x damage a cat can.
And the largest dogs are easily capable of killing. Not an argument.

~~~
traderjane
Of course it’s an argument because we can simply license based on predictors
of burden. Small dogs which are projected to fall below a risk tolerance
threshold should have less licensing burden.

Similarly, different classes of vehicles get different licensing requirements;
saying all cars are the same is just lazy, and a regulation meant for big
risky entities being applied to small ones is what we call regulation moats.
We have enough pet owners that we should be able to quantify risks and burdens
for the purpose of licensing. Here we have an article which provides
empiricism on the community burden from cats.

~~~
janderland
I don’t think he’s arguing for HOW to regulate, only that dogs SHOULD be
regulated. You’re both correct imo.

~~~
traderjane
I'm talking about whether anecdotes of safe dogs is an argument that we might
need different levels of licensing. Yes it's an argument, especially in the
face of empiricism on the community burden of cats.

------
chiefalchemist
Some may want to read this as well. From The Atlantic circa 2013.

The End of Cats: An Interview With the New Zealand Economist Calling to
Eliminate All Kitties

[https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/the-
end...](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/the-end-of-cats-
an-interview-with-the-new-zealand-economist-calling-to-eliminate-all-
kitties/272474/)

------
Jazgot
My cat doesn't care about wild life at all. She spends a lot of time in the
garden and birds even have learned that they can walk near her without any
issues.

~~~
nannal
That could be inadvertently teaching the wild life they can approach any cat
which will have the expected result.

~~~
Jazgot
That could, but most likely it is just teaching them that my quite specific
cat in my garden is different. They are clever beasts.

------
vgivanovic
The NPR headline is catchy but the underlying study is dogged by questions.

The cited study
([https://doi.org/10.1111/acv.12563;](https://doi.org/10.1111/acv.12563;) sci-
hub.tw has a copy) has some methodological flaws:

* The cat studied were were not randomly selected; they were chosen by "local volunteers". There may be confounding variables that explain part of the effect and so turn the observed effects from being statistically significant to not being statistically significant. * The data on kills was self-reported, allowing bias to creep in. * All the cats were English-speaking. * Only 10 un-neutered pet cats were studied. I don't know if being neutered would increase, decrease, or have no effect on the kill rate, but the subject is not discussed.

I also question the conclusion that cats have a significant impact on local
fauna.

* The average kill rate for a pet cat was (roughly) less than two animals per week, which doesn't seem very high. I'm left with the feeling that the authors had to resort to killings/area to make the results impressive. * The authors did not report on the total size of the home ranges of cats compared to total area. So, for example, if the ratio was 1:1000, then so what? If the ratio was 1:20, then house cat might have a significant affect on local fauna.

Finally, I have a question about the presentation of the data: Figure 2b does
not indicate that "75% of cats spent 90% of their time in disturbed habitats".
The graph indicates that 500+ (out of 875 cats) spent between 95% and 100% of
their time in developed habitats. Perhaps the y-axis is mislabeled, but even
if it is, the graph does not match what the authors say.

------
dghughes
Then again how many types of birds are invasive species in the Americas?
Pigeons, doves, starlings, sparrows, finches and I'm sure many more.

For mammals some mice, rabbit and squirrel species are invasive species too.

Invasive cats killing invasive animals. It seems cats like small birds and
mammals that tend to be invasive.

~~~
11235813213455
The problem is they don't really target invasive species, except maybe
squirrels, from what I can see. They don't seem very interested in pigeons for
example, while they clearly chase and sometimes kill nightingale, robins,
magpies, and many other little birds around, lizards too, probably some
butterflies who didn't ask for it too, all of them participate actively in the
ecosystem health

~~~
rjsw
The cats of my neighbour kill pigeons, even with bells on the cats' collars.

------
jeroenhd
Of course animals like cats will kill more in a given area if they don't stray
out. I also don't see very much of a problem with that, given that most
densely populated neighbourhoods have a want for large amounts of rodents and
birds.

------
vlan0
It's yet another problem that relies on each individual to make decisions that
benefit the whole.

~~~
waynecochran
There is a lady down the street that feeds raccoons. Raccoons cary several
horrible diseases:

[https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/baylisascaris/prevent.html](https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/baylisascaris/prevent.html)

Occasionally I burn their latrines cause these diseases scare me to death. NO
NOT FEED RACCOONS! Walt Disney is lying to you -- they are nasty creatures to
have around.

------
kyleblarson
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/stay-home-back-to-work-a-dog-
an...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/stay-home-back-to-work-a-dog-and-cat-
debate-re-opening-america-11587138058)

------
Leary
It's amazing how adoptable cats are both to domesticated life and to life in
the wild. Is there a way for evolution to work its magic and for species
hunted by cats to develop countermeasures?

~~~
vharuck
This is the way evolution works. The species of the future don't come from
responsive adaptation, but from not dying before reproduction. Now with a new
cause of death, those species are in danger of no longer existing like nearly
all species across history.

------
Tiktaalik
> "The big concern is where we have an overlap of people and cats with native
> species that are small and vulnerable," Kays said.

Kind of the key question here. Does your local jurisdiction have native
species that live in towns and cities that are vulnerable? Some places are
different than others. In some places the typical small city bird may even be
an introduced species.

In New Zealand for example yes absolutely. Other places maybe not so much...

It is absolutely wild to me how laissez faire Kiwis are about the right to
have their cats roam while at the same time being so militant against other
mammals (including dogs!).

~~~
11235813213455
> Other places maybe not so much...

You probably don't notice them, all little birds, insects, lizards, hedgehogs
(I saw a cat mauling one once, same with lizards and birds),..

Actually, in my city, near woods, there's a small outdoor refuge for "wild
cats" as the woman I talked to call them. She was feeding them, so I wonder
how wild they are and how much they harm the local ecosystem, on top of all
the other pets

I think there's an unhealthy addiction and love for pets. If you like animals,
you could let them live normally in their natural habitat, and observe them
once in a while. I hope this mentality will change

~~~
__s
Domestic cats have a natural habitat in households. Owners who keep their cats
indoors or on leash outside don't impact wildlife. Cultural education of not
letting cats roam is likely to have more progress than arguing for banning
pets. Besides, staying indoors is healthier for cats anyways

~~~
leetcrew
it's kind of weird to talk about the "natural habitat" of an animal that has
been domesticated over thousands of years. it doesn't seem obvious that the
modern cat (or especially dog) would be better off in the "wild" than living
with humans.

~~~
chepaslaaa
Humans are better off with household cats than with rodent infestations.

------
m0zg
Can confirm, my cat kills all the time. Birds, rabbits, frogs. If something
moves in my backyard, it will eventually be killed. In the summer when doors
are open she actually drags in dying, bleeding animals from time to time. And
under prey drive she's a completely different animal, scary and aggressive AF.

------
HarryHirsch
You ask how much wildlife there is in urban and suburban areas to begin with.
The wildlife that lives there is all generalist, if a cat takes a mouse,
squirrel, starling or blackbird it's a bit bloody but not really important in
the great scheme of things.

~~~
lostlogin
Zealandia in Wellington, New Zealand has been a key part of a massive change
in suburban wildlife. The changes made have resulted in many more birds
(including quite rare ones) in the centre of town.
[https://www.visitzealandia.com/](https://www.visitzealandia.com/)

------
JadeNB
The title was truncated ("predators" to "pred").

------
pgtan
What is this mass psychosis of feeling the urge to own a dog or cat anyway?
And how it comes, that environmentalists don't get loud on the harm on nature
caused by domestic cats and dogs?

~~~
lostlogin
It’s a coming pain point in New Zealand. We aim to become predator free as a
country. [https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/pests-and-threats/predator-
fr...](https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/pests-and-threats/predator-free-2050/)

------
Kaiyou
It's a cat, so it can do no wrong. If the cat is pleased by killing wildlife,
the wildlife has to die.

~~~
shrimp_emoji
Downvoting someone for suffering from toxoplasmosis is ableism.

~~~
leetcrew
wrong thread?

~~~
Kognito
I think it's a lighthearted reference to studies which have demonstrated
possible, albeit minor, psychological and physiological effects on humans
after infection with the Toxoplasma gondii parasite [1].

In rodent models, infection appears to exert effects which make the rodent
more likely to be killed and eaten by felines in order to complete the
infection cycle of the parasite in the digestive tract of the feline.

The suggestion being that similar effects might be occurring in humans,
particularly cat owners who are likely to be carriers of the parasite,
manifesting in increased positive behaviours towards the cat.

[1]
[https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article/33/3/...](https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article/33/3/757/1882426)

------
tyjen
Kill all feral and free roaming invasive, domestic cat species. Domestic cats
belong indoors and not outside.

~~~
zelon88
You surely don't mean other people's properly identifiable pets, do you?

------
somewhereoutth
Apparently cats can catch novel Coronavirus - there is a danger they may
become natural reservoirs, in which case we may have to get rid of them.

~~~
josephorjoe
Apparently humans can catch novel Coronavirus . . .

~~~
twojacobtwo
What was your motivation in posting this?

------
aaron695
If you find it concerning work on cat to human covid-19 transmission.

Governments seem to be ignoring this because politically it would be a
nightmare.

If it transmits cat-cat(seems proven) and cat-human, killing all the cats
would save lives, how many cats hang out at nursing homes?

~~~
fit2rule
Cats and dogs are slaves.

------
Der_Einzige
Maybe I'll say what a lot of people are already thinking but may not want to
say out loud:

 _I don 't care_

Until someone can show me strong evidence that cat related hunting of this
wildlife has a short or even long term affect on humans (through biodiversity
loss of keystone species for example) than I think that the utility gained
from enjoying the company of the local feline hunters is worth it. Frankly, I
don't give a damn about pidgons or whatever else they're hunting until it
impacts me directly. Shun my egoism with your Christian inspired morality all
you want but at heart the vast majority of people are egoists in denial
anyway.

Maybe I got the parasite as a serial cat owner and that's what's motivating me
to talk this way but there seems to be an opposite parasite going around since
many here are _openly_ calling for folks to murder domestic house cats who are
allowed to roam outside.

Part of what I'm articulating is based on my fundemental belief in
anthropocentrism which I've never understood to be a bad word. Humans have
more value-to-life than wild animals. The animals humans care about (like
pets) have more value-to-life than pidgons. The alternative to this view
(animal and human value to life is comparable) is veganism and you see how
often that view shunned by the public at large.

Admittedly, nature is pretty messed up and it'd nice if house cats would be
better about not causing their prey to suffer on the way out - but nature
doesn't seem to care about morality so I'll give cats a pass as "not being
ethical actors" on this one...

