
Ask HN: Are you saving for retirement? - dustyreagan
This is for all the self employed hackers. Are you saving for retirement?<p>We don't have company 401(k) options, so what are you doing to save/invest?<p>I opened a Roth-IRA and just learned about Solo 401(k)s and SEP-IRAs. I think I'll keep contributing to the Roth, but look into other options as well.<p>Where are you putting your money?
======
sgoraya
I subscribe to the John Bogle school of passive index fund investing
(Rebalancing once a year) - Currently have a 401k that I max out using
Vanguard funds. I'm also working on saving a 12-month 'emergency' fund. When
the emergency fund is complete, I'll move on to adding more funds to my
taxable account that I have with Scottrade.

For whatever it worth, my current asset allocation is:

Vanguard Institutional Index VINIX 25%

Vanguard Extended Market Idx Instl VIEIX 15%

Vanguard FTSE All-World ex-US Index Inst VFWSX 35%

Vanguard Inst Total Bond Market Index VBMPX 25%

I use the following site and forums for my investing questions and info:

<http://www.bogleheads.org/>

I've found it to be very informative and the forum participants to be helpful.

~~~
rubashov
You are all bonds and equities. This is betting on the previous 30 years of
financial history going forward. You will be wiped out in a deflationary
environment or in a very high commodities inflationary environment.

Harry Browne's "Permanent Portfolio" is a wiser mix. You need at least some
precious metals and commodities specific exposure.

Personally, I've been thinking a couple acres of black walnut saplings might
be one of the best long term investments.

~~~
bradshaw1965
Harry Browne can work but it takes amazing patience that most investors will
never be able to muster.

Wild about Harry William J. Bernstein
<http://www.efficientfrontier.com/ef/0adhoc/harry.htm>

------
mattchew
I'm skeptical of the Roth IRA.

I think many people will get along on a lowered income in retirement and will
be paying taxes in a lower bracket than they do as working people. This is an
argument against the Roth (compared to a traditional IRA).

Tax rates are likely to go up in the next few decades, which is an argument
for the Roth. On the other hand, if the tax burden shifts from income taxes to
a VAT or a national sales tax, then the Roth might come out equal or a loser
compared to a traditional IRA. I think a VAT is likely.

There's also the possibility of retirement accounts being regulated in terms
of what investments are allowed. For example, requiring a certain percentage
of your account to be in U.S. government bonds. These ideas have been floated
around Washington a little bit. This is a minus for both the Roth and the
traditional IRA.

I still invest in my SEP-IRA (which is hella good if you want to really sock
it away) and a little bit in my Roth (hedging), but I don't max either of them
out any more.

~~~
byoung2
_I think many people will get along on a lowered income in retirement and will
be paying taxes in a lower bracket than they do as working people._

You're right about that...most people will work for 40 years and then retire,
cutting off their main source of income and dropping to a lower tax bracket.
My parents, on the other hand, have made more money since retiring 5 years ago
than they made in the 30 years prior (mainly through real estate investments).
I think entrepreneurial types will likely fall into this category, where they
continue to make more year after year, even into retirement, and so the Roth
IRA makes sense at least for now.

I'm predicting a VAT within the next 15 years, but hopefully there will be
some grandfather (pun intended) clause that phases it gradually for IRAs
opened now.

------
mistermann
I'm 39 now. I saved obsessively (single, crap apartment, very little days off,
no vacations) between 2001 and 2007, buying almost exclusively gold stocks. It
seemed to me that gold being at <$300 / ounce was a no brainer (which it was),
but I decided to invest in mostly junior explorers.

All went well for a while, I had amassed a net worth of aprox $1 Million, and
then the bottom fell out in 2008....all my stocks dropped on average 80%. (I'm
not joking, 80% was performance for the index).

Meanwhile, gold itself did a little headfake for a few months, and continued
to resume hitting new highs. Stocks didn't follow, although they are finally
getting a bit better, Maybe someday I'll break even! :)

Anyways, this is just my story to the OP. I had been ranting about the
unsustainability of the system for years, but when the shtf, it was my stocks
that got creamed, and I went from net worth 1 million to literally 0 (because
I had some leverage.

Oh well, thats how she goes. So, let it be a lesson to use a financial
advisor, even if they don't know what they're talking about (which they
probably won't).

~~~
viggity
why not just buy gold then?

~~~
mistermann
Probably a fine idea. The stocks are so hugely undervalued compared to the
commodity itself that its just irresistible! Famous last words perhaps? :)

------
jaxn
No.

I lost the retirement account in the divorce.

Then again, I kept the businesses.

So, I am planning for retirement by creating businesses with recurring passive
income.

~~~
callmeed
I'm curious–how old are you? And ... how confident are you that you'll have
enough recurring revenue to cover living expenses at your preferred retirement
age?

I ask because I'm considering options myself.

~~~
jaxn
I am 33.

I currently have almost enough passive income to live. My income comes from
retail stores. I am not real confident that they will last another 50 years.

What I am able to invest now is my time. So I spend some time on expanding and
diversifying the existing business and some time swinging for the fences with
technology. So far I have struck out a couple of times :-/

I don't know how confident I am that these stores would last until retirement
age. So my focus is on growth and diversification.

Edit: I should say "mostly passive" income. I am still involved.

------
cparedes
No.

I put as much money as I possibly can into my student loans, and I leave
everything else in my checking account. If I carry a balance from one month to
the other, then I win. If not, then I try again next month.

Eventually, I'll dump my excess income into my savings account, and once I'm
done with paying off my loans, I'll start dumping the money I used to dump
into my loans back into my savings.

------
gonepostal
_Disclaimer_ I am a Canuck I have chosen to invest most my saving in income
generating Real Estate. This is counter to what a lot my peers in my
generation are doing.

I invest in residential properties either suited bungalows or condo
townhouses. Even with the economic downturn they have been doing quite well
for me.

I plan to grow this portfolio as a side project of sorts while I hack on
software during the day. Over time it should be a solid source of "passive
income"(investing in real estate is rarely ever truly passive).

~~~
mistermann
What city do you buy in? Can you actually buy something today that is cash
flow positive. or do you put some work into them to pretty them up after
buying before you rent them out?

~~~
gonepostal
I bought in Edmonton, Alberta. It's not easy to find cash flowing properties.
But if you are slow and methodical there are opportunities. Find a system that
works for others and try to model yours after theirs. Why reinvent the wheel
when you can borrow one!

Pretty much all the properties I have were a little ugly to start. Nothing
major just some lipstick and rouge.

------
dotBen
I'd like to ask the question "when do you intend to retire?".

My father is 64 and although he's had an era of poor health a few years ago
(since recovered) he has no interest in retiring (he's a highly sought after
executive consultant in his field).

He's probably the first generation to actually question the whole notion of
stopping work at 65 and quietly going off to die. Like most of us on HN, he is
able to work in a career he enjoys that isn't labor intensive (thus capable
for older people)

The WorldBank says the average life expectancy in USA is 78
([http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN?cid=GPD_1...](http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN?cid=GPD_10))
so if you finally gave up work at 73 that's only an average of 5 years you
need to live without an income - and that for most successful professional
workers this is probably manageable through savings and/or reverse mortgage on
a reasonable sized house.

The pension industry hasn't really changed in 50 years yet the way we live,
work, and end our lives has changed (and continues to change rapidly). If the
shift is towards us working longer that means we need them less, so there is
no reason for them to adapt.

~~~
donaldc
_so if you finally gave up work at 73 that's only an average of 5 years you
need to live without an income_

Not necessarily. A couple of reasons:

* Life expectancy in developed countries has been increasing by well over a year every decade.

* Life expectancy for someone at age 73 is notably higher; remember that the average of 78 includes everyone who has died before age 73.

Personally, I come from comparatively long-lived ancestors. I have no desire
to find out when I'm 78 that I'm likely to live to 90 or 100, but have no
money left.

~~~
sbov
Yeah, the fact that life expectancy went up by a year because fewer newborns
died doesn't have any effect on you when you're already 25.

This is why I find the life expectancy that people quote pointless as a stat
when it comes to personal planning. What I really want to know is: when
looking at people who have made it to my age, what is the life expectancy?

~~~
sokoloff
It's probably higher than most people think (which is scary for their
retirement prospects, but otherwise great).

If you're 70 in the US right now, you're a favorite to see 80.
<http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4c6.html>

------
tocomment
The singularity is my retirement plan. It sounds risky but I really can't
think of any scenario where it hasn't arrived by 2040.

~~~
gwern
I'm wondering how serious you are about this. You really can't think of a
single scenario where it hasn't?

Moore's law shutting down tomorrow, the whole Western world going into a
Japan-style Lost Decade, an asteroid strike in the Pacific causing a tsunami
wiping out the West Coast, Japan, Korea, and part of China - or just the Big
One hitting California* - a demographic apocalypse choking off all major
investment, a limited biotech/nanotech plague, limited nuclear exchanges
(touched off by Russian adventurism into Georgia, North Korea, Iran...) etc...

Heck, I'm not even trying here. There are tons of scenarios in which no
Singularity of any kind has hit by 2040. (Good quip, though.)

* do you live in those areas and expect to not survive any major disaster? then rewrite them to take out the East Coast, England, etc.

------
lsc
Personally, I'm re-investing everything in to my company. It's high risk,
sure, but eh, I'm still under 30, there's time for me to try this several
times.

Also, I don't really buy the idea of retirement. Yeah, having enough money
would be pretty nice, but I have enough money now. I like working, and I don't
really see the point of depriving myself of working capital just to set myself
up to live the last years of my life in a nursing home.

~~~
iworkforthem
I think it's quite alright to put aside around 10-20% for raining days in a
investment acct/fund/etf. If you need it any time, you could cash out.

~~~
lsc
a backup fund would be a good thing, but I think 10-20% of my income would be
quite a lot, I think.

------
jimbokun
I've been saving 20% of after tax income into a savings account until I get to
5 months living expenses.

After that, my corporate IRA match will have kicked in (just started a new job
a couple months ago) and plan to save 15% overall into retirement accounts,
with the other 5% to put into paying down the mortgage and/or starting
education funds for the kids.

I'm following the Dave Ramsey "baby steps", by the way.

------
patrickgzill
I would stay away from IRAs of any form at this point.

It is quite clear that even if you manage to hold on to your money, there will
be additional sales taxes which will be imposed.

As well, the times that people I know have cashed in or taken a distribution
were times that they were not earning much and thus they didn't avoid a high
tax rate.

I am saving for retirement in the form of actual physical items such as silver
and other property I can hold (and possibly some real estate later), and my
emergency fund is a number of $100 boxes of nickels - tough to steal,
immediately liquid, but just difficult enough to cash in that it forces you to
only use it if you have to.

A business can serve as a great way to prepare for retirement, which is what I
am focused on at the moment.

~~~
blackguardx
How many boxes of nickels does it take to make rent for a few months?

~~~
patrickgzill
The boxes stack very nicely, in my case I am in a lower cost part of the
country, so under $1K per month rent costs... I think I could store $6K of
nickels in a very easy way, perhaps 2 boxes high in a 5x6 grid, under a queen
size bed.

------
byoung2
I started working full time in 2004 and I put money in the company's 401k back
when they matched, but since I change jobs roughly every 15 months (see
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1706920>) it gets annoying having to roll
it over into a new 401k. That, plus the fact that companies have stopped
matching these days, made me decide to go the Roth IRA route. I think the Roth
IRA is the way to go for young people because you put in after tax money (at a
lower rate because your salary is lower early in your career), and you take it
out tax free (a savings, since we'll all be in a higher tax bracket by then,
right?).

~~~
rubashov
I have a tough time trusting the 401k and Roth concept. It's _kind of_ your
money, but it's also under the control of the government. You just have to
trust them.

If you're in your 20s, trusting 401ks/IRAs means having faith there won't be a
fiscal crisis and/or a crazy government at any point in the next 45 years.
Seems like a somewhat dicey bet to me.

~~~
byoung2
You're going to be trusting the government either way. Put your money in the
bank, and it's FDIC insured, and you have to trust the bank and the
government. If there's a financial crisis, the bank is more likely to collapse
than the government, and if the government collapses, what good are US dollars
anyway. I'm assuming you have gold bricks and a very large mattress?

~~~
rubashov
> You're going to be trusting the government either way

With money not in a 401k or IRA, one can: keep gold bars in a vault overseas
(I do); bury cash or gold in the yard; buy woodland or farmland and trust that
local property rights will be maintained; open bank accounts overseas. There's
just a whole lot of ways to store wealth outside the easy reach of crazy
politicians.

When the money is in a 401k or IRA it is firmly in the grip of the IRS and
whatever they might arbitrarily choose to do at some point over the decades.

~~~
byoung2
_keep gold bars in a vault overseas_ \- You're at risk if diplomatic relations
between your country and the other country go south between now and
retirement.

 _bury cash or gold in the yard_ \- laughable at best

 _buy woodland or farmland and trust that local property rights will be
maintained_ \- a government that you fear will seize your IRA or 401k will
likely also seize your land. See Cuba and the Bacardi company.

 _open bank accounts overseas_ \- Overseas bank accounts are not safe from an
overzealous US government. As of 2009, you have to report all those Swiss bank
accounts.

------
chuhnk
I zero out at the end of the month so for the time being no. I'm 25 and with
my next salary most likely from a job move I'll start saving then. However its
more like that the money will be used towards funding my own business. I am an
entrepreneur at heart and do not take the thought of a bootstrapped business
lightly. The romantic nature in which viral startups are portrayed do appeal
to me but I am a realist and understand that I'll need to do something that
charges from day one.

To those who are responsible and do put away a bit of money every month.
Smart, very smart.

~~~
brc
You should really set up an account and get an automatic transfer going, even
if it's only $50 a month. While the amount isn't important, the habit is
vitally important now while you're still young.

Believe it or not, the period of life you're in right now is when you have the
most surplus income. Things will get a lot tougher at some point.

Everyone can take a 10% trim on their disposable income without too much pain,
and it's a good habit to get into. Just make sure you can't get at the money
without having to go in somewhere and fill out forms. Otherwise it will get
spent on something you have to do or have. And in ten years you'll regret both
the wasted money and failure to build a habit.

------
dangrossman
Yes, though no retirement accounts yet.

\- Deposited to a high interest savings account until FDIC limit

\- 8% of savings held in physical gold and silver

\- Rest of savings invested in large, old companies that issue good dividends
(DuPont, Johnson & Johnson, Excelon, GE...). Many of them bought at very low
points, making the dividend yields over 5% per year.

I've only had an income since 2004 (25 y/o), but I lived frugally and used
what I made to pay for college and save rather than buy fancy cars, a big
house, etc. I have a savings target I'd like to reach, before swit

~~~
lsc
> \- 8% of savings held in physical gold and silver

It sounds like a good idea to me, but if I had that much untraceable wealth
laying about, I'd be real quiet-like about it. Maybe keep the bulk of it in
insured safe-deposit boxes or the like. I know that this increases the chance
of government confiscation, but to me, that risk seems smaller than the risk
of sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of completely untraceable
assets.

------
onedognight
I started with a SEP-IRA years ago since the limits are much higher (~20% or
25%) than with a regular IRA ($5k). When the Solo 401k came out I got one of
those as well as the limits are even higher than with the SEP (100%). The main
catch with the Solo 401(k) is that you have create it before the end of the
calendar year whereas with the SEP-IRA you can create it up until April 15th.

------
JoeAltmaier
Put away college money for the kids with the Dell buyout. Put the proceeds
from the Silicon Valley house sale into a farm in Iowa. Worth about $1M if it
doesn't turn into a swamp or desert (pick your global-warming scenario).

Money in the retirement acct never did anything for 15 years, should have put
it into gold, buried in a mason jar in the back yard, for all the good the
stock market ever did me.

------
tmcneal
I've been contributing to a Roth and 401k since I graduated from college. I'm
invested in mostly index funds and bonds, along with one or two emerging
markets mutual funds. I figure that if the stock market totally tanks and
never recovers in 40 years, then I'll have much bigger problems than an
unperforming retirement account.

The rest of my savings goes to an online savings account.

------
catshirt
no. i spend all my money. not because i am incapable of saving, but because i
like taking advantage of what resources i have while i'm relatively young
(22). i'm confident i can defer saving until i'm at least 24 without feeling
wasteful.

i know this is irresponsible, but i'm making up for my years of passing on
irresponsibility in high school. just kidding. kind of.

~~~
donw
I'm twenty-nine, and regret doing this when I was younger. I spent far more
than I earned up until I turned 21 or so, and it took me a few years to pay
things off.

What are you spending money on? If you're buying experiences and knowledge,
through travel, education, and maybe your own startup, then you're doing it
(mostly) right.

If you drive a Mercedes and have a 60" TV, you're doing it wrong.

Even if you're spending wisely, you really want to be stashing money aside in
a rainy day fund. Aim for about $10k USD in liquid cash that you can tap at
any time. It's enough to cover your car suddenly exploding, or an unexpected
medical expense, or even to just support yourself for a year if you have to,
as long as you're frugal.

~~~
catshirt
trust me... i entirely realize, agree, and am on it. i appreciate the
perspective.

------
maxawaytoolong
I put $10K a month into a savings account until it reached the FDIC limit,
then I opened another savings account.

~~~
mikeryan
First 10K a month! Impressive.

Second why a savings account? Are you actually getting an interest rate that
outpaces inflation? I'm curious why this route with that kind of income.

~~~
maxawaytoolong
I don't know, I never think about it. The account used to have a decent
interest rate, I doubt it is now.

------
sjtgraham
No, I'm betting on my future performance. If I'm broke then so be it. I've
been broke before and I'm still here!

~~~
epynonymous
careful, being broke is fine, but being broke and sick is miserable.

------
WALoeIII
I work for a small startup with retirement plan. I just move 10% of my monthly
income into a Roth.

The harder question now is what to invest the Roth in? CDs are terrible,
T-bills would require like a 5 year investment to see decent return... index
funds? I'm stumped here and my old CDs are about to come up soon.

~~~
yalurker
If it's in a roth account, isn't your investment horizon decades away
(assuming you're not already in your 50's)? Why is "a 5 year investment to see
a decent return" a negative?

------
cardmagic
I have been saving since I was a teenager in a regular 401(k) but then I
realized that I can get a much better return on investment if I invest in
myself. Now I keep it all and am investing it in my business endeavors.

------
AmberShah
My husband and I both have IRAs (don't quality for ROTH) with ShareBuilder,
into which we put very little money monthly. I recently started working at a
company with 401K matching and do the full match on that.

------
byoung2
I think the better question is not "where are you putting your money?" but
"are you putting money away at all?"

------
presidentender
6% of my income finds its way to a very conservative (mostly bonds) Simple
IRA.

------
davidwparker
Yes, I'm contributing to my Roth IRA, as well as my wife's Roth IRA.

------
th0ma5
yes! i've been rolling my raises into a 401k. it has grown surprisingly, but
i've been doing to good thing and not looking at it unless i have to :D

------
yters
Yeah. I found out that if I deposit 30k in a 12% growth account I'll have $2m
by 65.

~~~
earle
I hear Madoff has a 12% growth account for you.

~~~
iworkforthem
Dun flag me unless you've done the maths first. if u place yr bets on just
leading 2 sports teams using Martingale system, u will do pretty ok.

------
trizk
into my startup!

------
sahillavingia
Retiring? Never!

------
amritashek
<http://www.loansavingsusa.com>

    
    
        This is a wonderful opinion. The things mentioned are unanimous and

needs to be appreciated by everyone.

~~~
amritashek
This is a wonderful opinion. The things mentioned are unanimous and needs to
be appreciated by everyone.

<a href="<http://www.loansavingsusa.com> rel="do follow"> Online Savings
Account Rates</a>

