
Ancient Indian Texts - amazedsaint
https://sites.google.com/site/ancientbharat/home
======
pflats
If you take a look at the math subsection
([https://sites.google.com/site/ancientbharat/math](https://sites.google.com/site/ancientbharat/math))
be aware that Brahmagupta was a beast of a mathematician. His sucessors, the
two Bhaskaras, were ridiculously good as well. Their names aren't nearly as
big as any of the European mathematicians you know, but they were powerhouses
of math during Europe's dark ages.

Brahmagupta was pretty much the first recorded dude to use 0 in math, so he's
got that going for him, and the only issue people take with his work is that
he was weak around the indeterminate forms (e.g. claiming 0/0 = 0)[1]. His
work on Pell's equation is pretty awesome too, but then we're veering into
more esoteric mathematics, so I digress.

Bhaskara II invented a rough and early verison of differential calculus to
calculate instaneous rates of change in the mid 1100s. Newton finished his
Method of Fluxions in 1671. (Newton's work was independent of Bhaskara II's
and is said to be far more rigourous with greather breadth and depth of usage
and applications; I haven't read enough of either to be an honest source, but
the claim seems reasonable.)

[1]For an ancient, though, this is understandable. We know that 0⨯0 = 0, that
b|a iff a = b⨯k, and that a = bq + r, so it's reasonable to assume that since
0 = 0⨯0 + 0 and 0|0, that 0/0 = 0. (Phew!) When you pretty much codify 0 in
math, I'll cut you a break on that one.

~~~
shas3
The 'problem' with Indian math was the general aversion (or ignorance) of the
importance of the method of proof. The more well known works of Greek
mathematics were great in emphasizing the importance of the concept of
mathematical proof. Yet, Greek mathematics, with the exception of Archimedes
and Diophantus had an aversion for arithmetic (especially the concept of
infinity and infinitesimals) and algebra and an over-reliance on geometry[1].
Engaging in a bit of counter-factuals, if either of the following had
happened: (1) Indians picking up on the method of proof, (2) Greeks adopting
more arithmetic and algebra, history of mathematics may have looked
significantly different than today.

However, the OP link has a ton of apologist/revisionist history with
insufficient archaeological evidence mixed in with a little bit of the good
stuff. Example: references to vastu shastra, which is astrological woo.

[1] Eric Temple Bell, 'The Development of Mathematics,' Dover, 1992.

~~~
monsterix
> vastu shastra, which is astrological woo.

I'd give you that in its current marketed form it is astrological bullshit,
but originally _Vastu Shastra_ was a formal form of science [1] grounded on
engineering principles and urban design. All persevering to obtain a 'calm'
for the dweller.

One can still infer from the high precision N-S-E-W positioning of fairly huge
ancient Hindu temples, historical remains of homes and dwellings, monasteries
and other artefacts. Even the 1000+ step staircases in some of the forts and
fortresses [2][3], transoceanic bridges [4] suggest the quality of math that
was in play.

The choice and placement of stone, wood and metal w.r.t Sun, tropical climate
and other ergonomic needs is simply mind blowing. Math has to be at the root
of it.

Obviously not many records exist to substantiate the level of skill and
academia prevalent at the time. I wish someone undertook a journey to research
and substantiate just about "everything" that we have from Egypt to Indonesia
(Hindu kingdoms spanned that far, yes!). At the risk of being shooed away by
existing pride.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vastu_shastra](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vastu_shastra)

Even the wikipedia here, for example, says ... "while Vastu had long been
essentially restricted to temple architecture..." which is completely wrong,
and they defeat it in the third paragraph where they define "the Sanskrit word
vastu means a dwelling or house with a corresponding plot of land" which is
what Vaastu Shastra was all about, not temples alone.

[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ChandBaori.jpg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ChandBaori.jpg)

[3]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chand_Baori](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chand_Baori)

[4]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%27s_Bridge](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%27s_Bridge)

~~~
xerophtye
>from Egypt to Indonesia (Hindu kingdoms spanned that far, yes!).

wait, what?? Clear to elaborate? I know alexander had a huge kingdom, i know
gnehis khan conquered a very very large area of land. I know muslims had an
ENORMOUS empire but this looks like news to me. So clear to elaborate?
Specifics?

~~~
monsterix
Wait, yes. Dude, Alexander and Genghis Khan are like they happened only
yesterday. Hindusim is much older than all of that, and I don't mean only in
terms of religion. The culture itself is very old, so to speak.

God this is going to be a long comment.

I don't know how immersed you are w.r.t Hinduism, which gave birth to, no
rather off-shooted other religions like Buddhism & Jainism. Here I can only
give a very top-level view to help you make an entry:

There are two epics of the Hindus: The Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Read
both, they're brilliant classics. These two epics are stories about rise and
fall of political power, affairs, conceit and ensuing wars between leaders of
different Hindu kingdoms. Let's say kingdoms of an aggregate land mass we now
call India, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan that stretches up to far, far east to
places like Cambodia.

I could not confirm how far in the west did Hinduism spread out but will do so
given that I am excited about it now.

Both epics are mythology by today's standards, but the stories in each are
what Hindus vehemently believe as true. All (not most) of warring cities in
both these epics exist inside and outside of India (or sunk under the ocean
[1]) even today. I mean literally.

On axis of time, both these two epics are separated from each other by two
'Yugas' [2]. We are living in the Kaliyug where kali == machines and yug ==
time-frame. Yugas are of varying length, first being Satayug about 1,728,000
million years. Man exists during this period as life forms from scratch in
this universe. Alexander was like a fucking second ago when you're talking
ages of this length.

I suggest start with Yugas and you'll start seeing math, numbers, conclusions,
geometric progressions and astronomy right in there. No need to accept
anything is true or false, w.r.t written and confirmed history. But you'll
love visiting places, and connecting it with the historical texts.

It goes up the Bohr's model of atom (Paramaṇu), the theory of what nucleus and
subatomic particles were about (hell yes!), the nuclear bomb ( _Brahma Asthra_
) and how these were used in warfare, negotiation and peace keeping. Several
other concepts of what seems similar to magic of quantum physics, treatment of
time-space curvature, extraterrestrial life, theory of relativity and
additional dimensions of gravitational physics (though refuted by modern
practitioners of course) all exist in discussions. May or may not be correct,
but the level of thought can be appreciated.

Astronomy, for example, scales to the level of predicting solar cycles, cycles
of universe (311.04 trillion years?[3]), variable length of life of
man/species, sub-sub-events like the ice age, age of the machines, age of only
truth which you will find pretty fascinating to read, if not believable.

Let me just throw in the starting point [2]:

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarka](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarka)

[2] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga)

[3]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrics_of_time_in_Hinduism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrics_of_time_in_Hinduism)

~~~
anilgulecha
>The culture itself is very old, so to speak.

A humble evidence based look at this:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civilization#Indian_s...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civilization#Indian_subcontinent)

No known evidence shows anything meaningful in the civilization department
happened before 4000BC.

~~~
monsterix
Well, no. The evidence you present is of civilizations that disappeared or
were destroyed and were excavated later on. These do not tie to the age of
Hinduism or the age of the culture, but only represent a few dots on its
timeline.

Ayodhya, for example, the city of Ram exists even today [1]. You're an Indian,
you'd know it of course. The modern version of this city is considered more
than 9000 years old, that's roughly about 7000 BC on wards. Buy a plot of land
in Ayodhya, start digging and you'll hit structures and temple tops of another
buried city underneath as you go deeper.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya)

This cave for example _Bhimbetka_ [2], is between 50,000-200,000 years old. It
is mentioned in epic Ramayana which has yet to be dated. Bhimbetka is declared
a world heritage site, and gives a proof of _homo erectus_ with skills in the
Deccan area that early in time.

Some crazy estimates suggest approximately 100,000 to 900,000 years ago for
Ramayana, but then it is a crazy estimate [3] indeed. There are pearls of
available proof, mythology and craziness all over the place. Someone needs to
connect them together so that we might get a better picture of it. Obviously I
don't wish to over state the age of Hinduism, but it is mystic by virtue of
its age for sure. It makes me lose my calm, ironically.

[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhimbetka_rock_shelters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhimbetka_rock_shelters)

[3]
[http://www.rense.com/general30/nasa.htm](http://www.rense.com/general30/nasa.htm)

------
pramalin
//Ancient India was a land of sages, saints and seers as well as a land of
scholars and scientists. Rishis were the sages who built our great culture.
They devoted their life, energy and experience for the welfare of people. They
wrote Vedas - the manual of vibrations. Following this many field of science
evolved in India. //

This is typical hindutva propaganda, where they claim that anything and
everything originated from Vedic scriptures, which are for welfare of people.

Before buying into it, I would suggest the readers to review the works of Dr.
Ambedkar such as Riddle In Hinduism.
[http://www.ambedkar.org/riddleinhinduism/](http://www.ambedkar.org/riddleinhinduism/)

~~~
the__prestige
Yup, that link is definitely not propaganda.

~~~
krrishd
of course it is, but it just generally helps looking at it from multiple
perspectives if you aren't directly affected, so you aren't affected more by
one side of the argument, and perhaps even have a better, more informed
perspective than some Indian people who may have been raised to think one way
or another, sticking to one of the sides.

------
tokenadult
The dates of ancient texts from India are claimed over a whole wide range.
There is as much as 2,000 years of divergence between the earliest speculative
date and absolutely attested known date for the _Vedas,_ for example. A good
outline of the issues in historiography of India can be found in _Mathematics
in India_ by Kim Plofker[1], who was trained both as a mathematician and
Sanskrit scholar. Not always knowing when a particular text was composed has a
lot of influence on knowing or not knowing which ideas appeared in what era in
the development of science and mathematics in India.

(One difference between India and either China or the near east is that the
writing materials used in India, often plaited sheets of palm leaves, were
much less durable than the silk sheets or bamboo slats used in China, or the
fired clay tablets or papyrus sheets or parchment hides used in the near east.
So many of the earliest writings from India have perished, while remarkably
old writings still exist from either China or Sumer.)

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-India-Kim-
Plofker/dp/06911...](http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-India-Kim-
Plofker/dp/0691120676)

~~~
maaku
The oldest writings in China are not much more than 2,000 years old. Maybe
you're thinking of oracle bones & bronze inscriptions? But those are rarely
more than a sentence or two in isolation.

~~~
tokenadult
The formation of the texts of Confucius and Mencius of course is older than
that. The Qin book-burning destroyed a lot of the books that were that old,
but bamboo manuscripts and silk manuscripts are still being discovered from
archeological sites that are much older than any surviving writings from
India. I have personally read in museums bronze inscriptions that are more
than just a few sentences long, dating back about three millennia.

[http://blog.seattlepi.com/bookpatrol/2010/01/29/rare-
bamboo-...](http://blog.seattlepi.com/bookpatrol/2010/01/29/rare-bamboo-strip-
books-discovered-in-chinese-tomb/)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawangdui_Silk_Texts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawangdui_Silk_Texts)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo_and_wooden_slips](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo_and_wooden_slips)

~~~
maaku
The Qin book-burning was mainly what I was referring to, but I didn't know
there was significant recovery of bamboo or silk manuscripts going on (such
material does not generally last 2,000 years without unusual environmental
conditions).

I've also seen the long-form bronze inscriptions in museums - but those are
the exceptions. That's why they're in museums ;)

------
djdj123
You may have picked up on the author's not-so-subtle self-congratulation in
the use of the phrase: "our great culture".

There is a lot of wonderful material to be absorbed in the ancient texts of
India, but the text of that page has a strong Hindu religious nationalist tone
(which in Indian languages is called "Hindutva", or "Hindu-ness").

The vast (in time and space), and diverse Indian culture that produced these
works was far more tolerant and open to the world's ideas than the apparent
mindset of the individual(s) who created this site.

So try to enjoy the actual linked texts, but observe, and then ignore the
religious nationalism that seems to have inspired the site.

~~~
smoyer
"our great culture"

Do you mean cultural heritage? I wouldn't call the culture so great now with
the corruption in politics, etc.

~~~
datacog
how does politics get to be a part of culture ?

------
elangoc
This sort of topic has come up before, and to put it gently, blog posts like
these have been lacking in context and substance. See a previous HN post:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4154755](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4154755)

Also see a previous HN post about a PNAS publication that talks about the
people from current-day South India 4000 years ago (while South Indians'
language is not based on Sanskrit, and 4000 years ago far predates the time
period mentioned in the original post):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5078076](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5078076)

------
unmole
Interesting collection. Disappointed to see the typical Hindu apologist,
revivalist nonsense in the description though.

Edit: What I mean by typical:
[http://youtu.be/RSHFzZmQPj0](http://youtu.be/RSHFzZmQPj0)

~~~
managuru
Agreed - why dig up ancient books that did not stand the test time? Just go
forward with what is present and focus on future.

~~~
seiji
When these issues come up, there's always a vague "comes from india"
contingent willing to riot and avenge their country over the fact they are the
best at everything. (Don't bring up any discussions about infosys, else you'll
be inundated with how great and expansive they are.)

Maybe it's because such a huge population actually has an origin place and
story going back quite far? I don't have an origin. I come from some vague
stock of medium-tall people with transparent skin in northern europe where the
sun don't shine. I've nothing of ancestry to fight for, so I'm not sure I can
even understand how they approach the world largely focused on the past.

~~~
sn0v
I'm from India and it pisses me off a bit as well, but you've got to admit
there are people all over the world who're stuck in the past, where they're
from etc. and on the other hand, ones who'd rather worry about where they're
headed :)

------
smoyer
Yep ... I know that eye glasses and cataract surgery were done there first
(the ruined lens was poked out of place with a copper wire, then a pair of
glasses became the primary lens and the cornea became the secondary lens). And
obviously you needed to be able to produce glass to make eye glasses. There
was also early production of stainless steel.

I'm not as well-versed in Indian history as I should be ... with that kind of
science, you would have expected a dominant technical culture but why was this
knowledge lost instead?

~~~
kamaal
>>you would have expected a dominant technical culture but why was this
knowledge lost instead?

One word, Entropy!

As an Indian, I can tell you India has seen many cycles of ups and downs. And
its not just mere technical culture, there is tons of other things. Food,
literature, language, poetry, food, clothes, music, religions, philosophy and
what not. I don't know any other country in the world comes close to matching
this. Buddha arrived in India in around 500 BC. And that was one of India's
peak times in Spiritual and philosophical tradition.

There are languages that are totally extinct, cultures that have faded away.
Massive amounts of literature lost completely to mankind.

But Mainland India has been invaded many times, colonized, bulk of its wealth
plundered. Add to this the overall entropy of the system.

A simple question to you would be like this. Can you be sure US will remain
the world super power 200 years from now.

~~~
eklavya
A small correction there, Buddha WAS from India :)

------
the__prestige
If there is a lesson to be learnt, it is that one should be humble about the
notion of being the first to invent anything. I'm pretty sure the many of the
concepts expressed in these texts go further back in time without any record.
Everything is an addition or evolution of the past, regardless of whether it
is explicitly or wittingly so.

------
taway121
I pass no comment on the site, but on assertions here about hindutva as hindu
religious propaganda/nationalism. This is incorrect, hindutva does not
proscribe or prescribe any religion.

Veer Savarkar's pamphlet on which modern notions of hindutva are based on can
be read at [1]

Sarvakar includes all Indian religions in the term "Hinduism" and outlines his
vision of a "Hindu Rashtra" (Hindu Nation) as "Akhand Bharat" (United India),
stretching across the entire Indian subcontinent.

Hindu in the context of hindutva is not religious. It speaks about a common
identity for a united nation. Savarkar's writing need to be read in the
context of the period that they were written, English oppression and the fight
for independence, before the idea of a muslim state, Pakistan were first
proposed. During this time, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh were one nation
commonly know not as India, but Hindustan. Hindustan represented not a Hindu
state, but a country where people who shared the hindu ethos reside.

At the level of practice, the Hindutva or Hindu ethos, outlook boils down to
upholding righteousness (Sat-guna) and fighting ignoble attitudes (Dur-guna).

Quoting Savarkar, "We Hindus are bound together not only by the tie of the
love we bear to a common fatherland and by the common blood that courses
through our veins and keeps our hearts throbbing and our affections warm, but
also by the tie of the common homage we pay to our great civilization - our
Hindu culture"

Modern India was founded at independence on the same beliefs, in the quote
above replace hindus by India and hindu culture by Indian culture.

Please read the literature on the subject and not what is simply presented on
modern pop culture.

[1]
[http://www.savarkar.org/content/pdfs/en/essentials_of_hindut...](http://www.savarkar.org/content/pdfs/en/essentials_of_hindutva.v001.pdf)

~~~
selimthegrim
Please enlighten us on Savarkar's reaction to Ambedkar wanting to convert
Dalits away from Hinduism.

------
vram22
Interesting, will check the site out. Apropos: I had blogged this a while ago:

Bhaskaracharya and the man who found zero:

[http://jugad2.blogspot.in/2010/06/bhaskaracharya-and-man-
who...](http://jugad2.blogspot.in/2010/06/bhaskaracharya-and-man-who-found-
zero.html)

~~~
vram22
And here is one of his books, the Lilavati:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilavati](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilavati)

I noticed this at that page:

"Bhaskara II gives the value of pi as 22/7 in the book but suggest a more
accurate ratio of 3927/1250 for use in astronomical calculations."

I also remembered reading somewhere that some ancient Indians had a simple
formula for pi that was somewhat accurate; take the first 3 odd positive
integers, twice each, as one single number, split it down the middle, and
divide the right half by the left half, i.e. 113355 => 355/113 = ~pi.

So I checked, using Python:

$ python >>> from math import pi >>> pi 3.141592653589793

>>> print 3927.0/1250 3.1416

>>> print 355.0/113 3.14159292035

The approximation that uses 113355 matches pi (from Python) upto 6 decimal
places.

------
Jonovono
This is neat! Thanks.

I have wanted to learn Sanskrit for a long time, and I think the stuff you
could read after learning that would be interesting.

And then there is NASA (apparently) using Sanskrit for AI:
[http://www.vedicsciences.net/articles/sanskrit-
nasa.html](http://www.vedicsciences.net/articles/sanskrit-nasa.html)

~~~
laichzeit0
As someone who put in the years required to learn Classical Latin and Attic
Greek I can but only heed you to make very, very sure you are willing to
invest the enormous amount of time required to learn an ancient language.

If you have a normal job, wife and children, and can't find at minimum 2 hours
out of your day to dedicate to language study, then don't bother. You will
never read any Sanskrit at a comfortable pace if you can't commit to such an
investment. I'm talking about picking up a book and not hitting an unknown
word 3 times a sentence. You'll need at minimum 2 years of a full time
schedule like before it even becomes fun.

It's the unfortunate and sad reality about the time commitment required in
learning ancient languages to the level of fluency.

~~~
Jonovono
That's good to know. Ya, I understand it would be a huge time investment.
Luckily I don't have any of those barriers, and am still quite young!

------
nitin1213
Indian culture was always inclusive in nature right from its point of
origin.but now we only see it becoming exclusive and narrow concentrating only
on the Hindu side of the culture.

------
anovikov
"Russia is the motherland of elephants" (old Soviet joke)... how familiar...

------
dschiptsov
Ancient texts should be considered as a philosophy rather than science,
because almost nothing was formally proved that time, but lots of phenomena
were correctly inferred or guessed.

Most famous insights, of course, were these about the nature of mind from the
Upanishads, which uses state of sleep, deep-sleep (without dreams) and
wakefulness as metaphors to illustrate what we now call "models of the world",
"contexts", "cognitive dissonance", "frames of reference", or just the role of
the mind (consciousness) in cognition - how we constantly distort, reinterpret
and even ignore perceived reality.

Roughly, it was a notion clarified later by Buddha - "Life is shaped by our
mind, we become what we think", the notion that all our (at least
psychological) "suffering" begins (and ends) inside our skulls and doesn't
exist in the world outside.

Another great notion was one of the Dzongchen sect of Tibetan Bon tradition,
when they use analogy of a mirror to how our mind should "work" \- as a mirror
isn't affected by what it reflects, so the mind in its "primordial" (original,
such that of a child) state is just a "tool" to "do everything", including
things done by Buddha or Einstein.

More recent marvels from India including "Want to see a God - look between two
thoughts" by "modern" saint Ramakrishna, which is "in continuum" back to
Upanishads.

In short, in decent texts composed by highly intelligent authors (including
so-called fiction) there is a possibility to find correct inferences and
guesses for almost every observable phenomena, if your own mind is lucid
enough.

------
yarou
I'm really confused by the comments that say the tone of this site is "Hindu
nationalist". I see no mention of the word "Hindu" in the entire page. In
fact, it's as far from politicized text as possible. Not everything on the web
has some hidden meaning or subtext.

~~~
chattoraj
The site has a page on "Vimanika shastra"[1] ("Science of Flying Machines"),
which is known to be a bullshit text from the 20th century[2].

Definitely a Hindutva site.

[1]
[https://sites.google.com/site/ancientbharat/aeronautics](https://sites.google.com/site/ancientbharat/aeronautics)

[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaim%C4%81nika_Sh%C4%81stra](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaim%C4%81nika_Sh%C4%81stra)

~~~
s-topper
>>> _Definitely a Hindutva site._

And, your point is?

That site also has collections about works of legit ancient Indian
mathematicians, Vedas etc. So, you are going to disregard them because they're
Hindus?

If somebody mentions about these things, then they're said to be peddling this
so called Hindu propaganda. Now, _THAT 'S_ a real propaganda.

~~~
pramalin
It is really pathetic to see how people try to defend their fundamental
beliefs without any substance. People are brainwashed to believe that vedic
scriptures are full of knowledge (I was a victim too. I used to recite some
parts of the scriptures like purusha suktam). In reality, the scriptures are
filled with filth like procedures of sacrificial, bestiality and orgy rituals,
calls upon gods to slaughter their enemies (who have stolen their herds), etc.

Ambedkar was very diplomatic in his criticisms towards them. Osho was not so
kind. See: [http://www.osho.com/library/online-library-rigveda-
tulsidas-...](http://www.osho.com/library/online-library-rigveda-tulsidas-
heritage-c6e3574f-06c.aspx)

You can also see that the site claims that Jyotish is astronomy but it
actually means astrology.

Here is the description of Saturn in one of the texts "Parashara Hora Sastra"
[http://archive.org/stream/ParasharaHoraSastra/BrihatParashar...](http://archive.org/stream/ParasharaHoraSastra/BrihatParasharaHoraSastraVedicAstrologyEbook_djvu.txt)

29\. [Saturn] has an emaciated and long physique, has tawny eyes, is windy in
temperament, has big teeth, is indolent and lame and has coarse hair.

What is legit or scientific about it?

~~~
mayanksinghal
> What is legit or scientific about it?

Nothing. And no one here is claiming that all parts of these texts are to be
taken as absolute fact with empirical proof. Most of it, as you mention, is
riddled with imaginary stories probably because scientific discovery was being
carried out by religious philosophers of that time.

However, there are parts of these texts that are legitimately impressive,
philosophically or scientifically - and a blanket denial of that would be just
as unjust as the 'filth'.

~~~
pramalin
But the site says: ... [sages] wrote Vedas - the manual of vibrations.
Following this many field of science evolved ...

I have provided references to show that the basic 4 vedas are tribal in nature
and there is no basis to claim them as the origin of other scientific oriented
texts. I am not denying all of the texts as bad.

------
pinkskip
meh..

