

Ask HN: Boss fired me. How to warn former employer about him? - cap10morgan

I just got fired by my manager of 6 months at a Rails dev job I had had for 1.5 years.<p>For background, the person who managed me for the first year gave me nothing but glowing reviews. The former department head gave me a raise and approval to work remotely when I said I was having trouble making ends meet where I was living at the time. So I'm pretty sure I wasn't the problem. I was, however, the only employee working for the manager who fired me. So it was my word against his. He admitted that he was resentful of the fact that I had gotten approval to work remotely, and he and I routinely disagreed about the technical aspects of the work. In spite of that, I did everything he asked me to do to the best of my ability.<p>The organization (which shall remain nameless) is doing great work that I truly wish to see succeed. But the manager who fired me is a toxic individual who should not be in charge of anyone or anything. How do I effectively warn the organization about him now that he has fired me?<p>They have obviously already decided to take my former manager's word over mine in authorizing my termination. And if I go into the exit interview railing against him, the HR folks who will interview me probably won't take that very seriously.<p>So what would you do to convince this organization that the manager is the problem?
======
justin_vanw
I'm guessing if asked, your former manager would have a very different story
to tell.

Effectively you are asking "how can I get the person who fired me in trouble?"
I would step back and analyze your own motivations. Odds are, the situation is
more complex than you would like to admit, even to yourself.

As for advice, try to figure out what lessons you can learn from the entire
situation. Try to understand what really happened. Try to put yourself in your
former managers shoes. Don't keep living in the past, and stop entertaining
impotent revenge fantasies about 'warning the organization' about your former
manager.

~~~
yason
_Effectively you are asking "how can I get the person who fired me in
trouble?"_

I did get more the impression that he was worried about the problematic boss
causing more unnecessary trouble at the company. He seemed to wish his ex-
employer the best and was trying to find a way to raise the issue with them
that he thinks he was unfairly laid off by this individual boss.

~~~
three14
That's true, but the grandparent's point is important also - most people
seldom fully understand their own motivations, and most people have trouble
seeing themselves as outsiders see them. It's a pain to fire someone, and then
you have to go find a replacement, so even if the manager didn't like him, the
manager probably thought there was a real reason to fire him. Even if the
manager was wrong.

------
davidst
> So what would you do to convince this organization that the manager is the
> problem?

If you could do that you would still be working there. They are going to have
to find out for themselves.

The best thing you can do is not burn your bridges. Depart and remain on
friendly terms with the company. This is one of those times when there is
nothing more you can do. It may be painful because you want the company to
succeed but you have to accept this and move on.

~~~
earl
Also, anything you say about your former manager can be written off as sour
grapes. So yeah, they had to choose and they did. : shrug :

I dunno where you live, but if you're near SF, Scribd is always hiring good
rails devs. So are a ton of places in the valley; start with
<http://yclist.com/> and you should do pretty well for yourself.

------
wisty
OK, so you have been fired. Being fired is a traumatic experience, and you
want someone to blame.

Playing the devi's advocate, maybe the manager and you just didn't mesh well?
Maybe he was miffed at having 1 report, who wasn't even in the building?
There's lots of reasons that aren't really the fault of some satanic manager,
or the employee.

I'd make that case in the exit interview - you and the manager just clashed.
He should have worked out a transfer for you, as you had proven to be an asset
for the org (with your technical skills - which had been shown to be good, and
ability to work with your old manager). I'd just keep going back this point -
it was a team problem (between you and the manager), which the manager should
have escalated. Since he was obviously partly to blame (two people don't clash
just because one of them is wrong), he should have gotten _his_ boss in to
deal with it, or gone to another third party. He clearly wasn't competent to
sort out the team, and resorted to sacking you, rather doing what _any_
employee should do in such a situation - calling in _his_ boss to sort things
out.

------
orochimaru
Since they've decided to let you go instead of him, it's unlikely they will
take anything you have to say seriously, until you back it up with similar
reviews by other people he has managed or interacted with.

Although the other comments mention letting it go, I would suggest not to. The
only thing needed for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing about
it.

If you work hard enough bringing out proofs of his toxicity - even to the
employees and the future people who will work under him, I can say for granted
something is bound to happen to him. I know this because I have done so with
reasonable success in the past. Here's my story, if you're interested.

I joined a startup I was excited as hell about, and had the happiest times of
my life for the first 1 year. It was a win-win - they loved me and I loved
them. However, once it went profitable, the founders ( 8-10 years our seniors
) began hiring their college buddies as VP this, VP that.

It was around this time that the people I had worked with to build the entire
system from scratch had started quitting. I should have taken the hint, but I
stayed on.

When they hired a 'CTO' from their college who had dubious credentials at
best, I should have known better than to stay. VPs with 0 management chops are
still okay, but a CTO with no vision is a suicidal move. To make matters
worse, I was put under direct management by him. He had no new ideas, and was
quick to shoot down through intimidation any new work I tried working on as
'too optimistic'. Deep down, I knew that was not the problem - deep down he
resented the fact that I was the go-to guy for the problems the newer
employees faced, and try as he did, he couldn't solve problems to save his
life. He resented having to come to me whenever something crashed, and there
were instances of crashes he didn't even tell me about, and I only came to
know of them through other employees who thought I should know.

I brought this into light at several meetings with the founders, the people
who i had worked with since the beginning to build this system almost from
scratch, and then rebuild it. However, the founders seemed more interested in
reliving their college life than chiding the 'CTO' about his misadventures.

This left a bad taste in my mouth, and I quit - but not before humiliating the
'CTO' at every public gathering with the team that we had, during my notice
period - to the point that he stopped organizing these meetings. I was
supported by the employees who knew who was to blame.

Soon after I left, two of these 'VP's were let go, and the 'CTO' had to make
amends to accomodate several whims of the employees. They perhaps can't let
the CTO go because he has had sexual harrassment charges against him, and
wouldn't be hired anywhere else. This was probably the reason he went jobless
for 2 years before the startup was founded.

I wish the startup succeeds, but I also wish he is not there to reap the
benefits of the success he so doesn't deserve.

The point is - I could have just rolled over and taken it, and simply quit -
but like I mentioned before - " The only thing needed for evil to succeed is
for good people to do nothing about it."

So let it go, but not before you've done him enough harm so that he knows
better than to mess with anyone else like he messed with you.

------
byoung2
It is usually better to post these using a throwaway account. You say you have
been a Rails dev at a nameless organization for 1.5 years. Your account is 1.3
years old, and you list your employer in your profile. So I can reasonably
assume that the employer your profile is the organization in question?

------
mruniverse
I'd tell HR the reason you think you're being fired and why it's wrong. Be
very specific about it (name the project, circumstances, dates if possible).
Try not be angry. Be as reasonable and fair-minded as possible but don't sell
yourself short. Then go out for a nice dinner, sleep in late, and find more
interesting work.

If you stay in the industry, you'll probably run across your old colleagues at
other companies. And if you want to work for that company again, you can check
back in a year or so. That manager will probably be gone.

------
steve8918
Were you laid off, or were you terminated with cause? If you were just laid
off, then the number one thing I would do is ensure that your performance
reviews are all good and that nothing has been changed, or that he didn't add
something improper to your reviews.

Contact HR and ask for a copy of your performance reviews, and then leave it
at that. If you can leave with severance, collect unemployment, and have a
good performance review, I guess that's about all you can do.

If you are being terminated with cause, then in many states, including CA,
they need to have given you warnings about your performance, otherwise they
can't terminate you with cause. You can probably approach HR about this, and
if they don't give you severance, you could probably approach a lawyer.

Bottom line though, as someone else said, he lost and you won. It sucks, but
there's nothing you can do about it. It's a hard lesson but probably something
you'll learn in the future, which is don't bicker with your boss. Have
professional discussions, but if you find yourself constantly disagreeing with
him, you need to have more common sense about it and find yourself a new
position, either in a different group or a different company.

------
bugsy
> what would you do to convince this organization that the manager is the
> problem

Nothing. It's over. Move on. They'll eventually figure it out on their own,
and there's little you can and nothing you should do to expedite that process.

------
vessenes
As people are saying, "it's over here."

On the other hand, are you in an at-will employment state? Did the company
properly document non-performance? You may wish to talk to an employment
attorney about the circumstances of leaving.

It's possible you could preserve some rep in the company if you have strong
allies and a memorable story, but it's unlikely. You're gone, the guy/gal who
fired you is still around, and has unlimited airtime.

Get revenge by making more money in a better situation. Or, go punch out a
better competitor for a product you've been working on, (provided you're
legally allowed.)

------
ajays
You got laid off/fired. It's over. He won; you lost.

Trying to get even with him at this stage is not worth the effort. You don't
owe the company anything; just take your severance and move on. Doing anything
negative at this stage will only serve to burn bridges and make you appear as
a disgruntled employee.

Right now you're probably pissed, and rightfully so. But once you've had the
perspective of time, you will realize that it's best to just close the door on
this chapter of your life and move on to bigger, better things.

------
teyc
During the exit interview, don't take the charges against you too personally.
Find out whether there is anything at all that is actually your fault and
resolve to do better at it next time. Prove to HR that they were wrong because
you came across as a most reasonable person. Obviously, tell them you are
shocked and dismayed and you disagreed with their overall assessment. But you
see the futility of trying to convince them they may have a bigger problem
with your boss, and you wish them good luck and the very best.

------
jwatte
Exit interviews are effective if they are correlated over time. If you really
care, send a letter to the chairman of the board. However, unless you have
significant stock in the company, it is no longer your concern. Move on. I
would use the previous manager as you reference, btw ;-)

------
dustineichler
I can understand your frustration. I've been there and from my experience;
anger is a wasted emotion thats worth channeling towards developing new
skills, building new projects or just getting fit. Don't waste your time, it's
not worth it. Learn to roll with the punches, you'll be happier. If nothing
else, go out a class act. re: exit interview.

------
gyardley
The dominant advice in this thread is absolutely correct, assuming you worked
for a typical company. No longer your problem, move on without burning your
bridges.

That said, 'the organization (which shall remain nameless) is doing great work
that I truly wish to see succeed' doesn't sound like a regular business. I'd
bet money you worked for a non-profit or some other cause-based organization,
and the work itself was personally meaningful to you.

In this case I'd politely state my concerns to the people in your exit
interview - not railing against the man, but just stating that you believe
your termination wasn't the correct decision, was a setback for your
organization's goals, and for the sake of the organization you hope they'll
pay close attention to your former manager's performance in the future. You
should also state that you don't have any ill will for the organization and
that you'd be happy to work with them in the future should the situation be
different. Don't get emotional - you're an experienced Rails developer, you're
not going to suffer any economic hardship here. Just express regret about the
damage to the organization and its potential.

Unless your firing's going to kill babies or something, I wouldn't do anything
further than that by going outside regular procedures, despite your
inclinations. We live in a litigious society and cause-driven people (no
offense to you personally) are usually pretty touchy. You don't need the
hassle.

------
clarkevans
The HR folk are there to do the exit interview, summarize the information, and
provide a report to senior management. It's senior management that will
evaluate and take action, if any. How you can help is to provide a written
statement, in advance. This will be forwarded with the HR department's
summary. If there is concern raised, your prior boss's supervisor will be
notified and will have both the HR department's assessment and your written
statement.

------
dirkdeman
Same thing happened to me, my employer terminated my contract although he
stated that the quality of my work was excellent. The official reason was that
I forgot to add an item to the Outlook agenda. Pure BS.

At first, I was angry, confused, wanting revenge. Maybe if I'd tell the BoD
about what happened, they could help me. Then I realized that this would not
get me anywhere. Yes, life is unfair sometimes, but I'm absolutely certain
that everybody gets what he deserves in life. The A-holes will get their
share.

Then, it suddenly dawned on me. Terminating my contract is not just another
problem, it's a huge opportunity. The Dalai Lama once said 'Remember that not
getting what you want is sometimes a wonderful stroke of luck'. I've been
working on my startup for a little over a year now, always working on it
besides my full time job and family life. With the severance pay from my job I
will be able to work on it full-time! Sure, money is going to be a bit tight
for a while, but we'll find a way to make it work.

As far as your question goes: it's not your task to convince them they hired a
lemon. It's the task of the organization to constantly evaluate their
employees, including your boss.

------
goombastic
Just walk away from this. Focus your energies on getting another gig right
now. Whatever happens at your earlier place of work is not your concern
anymore. as long as you are happy and your conscience tells you that you put
your heart to it, you are good. Sure, there is the feeling of hurt, and of
being done in, but it's an opportunity as well.

Remember, the talent-less are political, by nature. Also remember, karma
usually comes full circle.

------
T_S_
Do absolutely nothing. Move on. It's like an auto accident. Plenty of reasons
to feel anger. No reasons to act on those feelings.

------
knarf55
That's a pretty tough question to answer. I agree with some of the comments
below (well the ones I read) that anything you say about your manager that's
sour will look poorly on you. My opinion would be to express that you loved
the company and former head dev manager. Don't leave a sour taste in their
mouth and be the "bigger" person about this. If you are truly an awesome dev,
you will find great work and they'll respect you more than your previous
company. Good luck to you.

------
brudgers
> _"he and I routinely disagreed about the technical aspects of the work"_

When everything is a point of contention between a person and their boss,
there are often few pleasant options...and when you are not showing up onsite,
it is difficult to have allies [and hard to avoid self documenting the grounds
for dismissal].

On the other hand, there is no reason to leap to conclusions about the exit
interview.

------
gorbachev
You could ask HR to explain the difference in feedback. Frame it as "I don't
understand how my feedback could've changed so drastically. I didn't do
anything different, after all."

If the only variable is a change of manager, logically it's kinda a no-brainer
what happened.

------
spottiness
Our site "Spottiness.com" may serve you well, in particular the "Blackspot"
section. We help people communicate anonymously and allow targets to respond.
If your anonymity is paramount, you should be careful with your writing style
and other clues.

------
dkrich
I'd take most of the advice put forth here and add this- don't do the exit
interview. Nothing good will come of it, and it only helps your employer
because you are likely to acknowledge some kind of acceptance that you weren't
perfect.

------
rorrr
A similar thing happened to me twice (though I was never fired, but rather let
go with nice severance packages). Glowing reviews for a year / year and a
half, then out of nowhere they would let me go.

I learned a few things

1) Every time you are let go, it's an opportunity to find a much better job
(whatever that means - more money, better location, startup). And this had
been true EVERY SINGLE TIME. Every time I was let go, I increased my salary by
20-40%, and built more and more connections with interesting people.

2) There's no such thing as job security. Nobody owes you anything. You can be
fired/let go for any reason, or without any reason, legally in most states.

3) If you're truly good, it's their loss. It's extremely hard to find
competent developers within a given budget.

4) After this happened a couple of times, I shifted to contractor work, it's
more money, and you expect your project to end. It might feel scary the first
time, but don't be afraid, you're in IT, there are TONS of jobs out there.

5) Unless you're climbing the corporate ladder, do not participate in the
office politics, or at least make fun of it. Yeah, you will probably not get
promoted to a director or a CTO, but who cares? Do you want to develop things,
or become a manager? Office politics is usually ugly, I've seen so much
backstabbing in the industry among manager types and crappy developers, it's
not funny. I've seen one shitty developer taking a code of a much smarter one,
showing it off to the clueless director, showering him with gifts, and getting
all kinds of raises and promotions. You can't fight it if higher management
doesn't understand what's going on. All you can do is move on.

6) Most people are good, don't take it too personally, shit happens.

7) If you ever want to be in charge, start your own company.

~~~
Mikosia
+1 well said

~~~
alanh
Welcome to HN. Don’t take the downvotes too personally — we aggressively self-
regulate to avoid an atmosphere of content-lite comments.

