

What's It Like To Be Fired? - barce
http://www.codebelay.com/blog/2011/07/15/whats-it-like-to-be-fired/

======
petercooper
Interesting, but:

 _In the startup, tech community, if you get fired, you become a persona non
grata. That means all the social circles I had booted me out._

The article says this happened "many years ago." I can't imagine the part
above applying any longer with the different ways in which people socialize in
the tech industry even in just the last few years.

Even folks who've done pretty shady things, are potty mouthed psychopaths, or
who have caused significant scandal aren't getting totally ejected from "the
community" (partly because there isn't just one tech community, but still).

~~~
wisty
Yeah, I was dubious about that statement too. I think that the author took it
really hard, and got a little paranoid. They were also probably embarrassed
about it, and found it hard to talk about; especially as they had signed a
disclaimer.

~~~
barce
I became a persona non grata socially. Folks would invite my previous company
but not me. Simple as that.

------
notJim
A lot of this really doesn't add up to me:

> "My boss the previous week had told me what a great coder I was" > "You
> cannot use the employer who fired you as a reference."

Why couldn't he use his boss as a reference?

> "if you get fired, you become a persona non grata."

I find this hard to believe. How would people even find out about it? And is
there no one in " _the_ tech community?" (as if there's only one) who knows
that people are human and make mistakes? Surely he would have friends in the
community who would see the whole picture.

> "I know there’s no techie blacklist but the only 2 jobs I could find were as
> a spam engineer or in a totally different industry."

Again, I find this difficult to believe. If he was really a great coder, and
came clean with his mistakes, possibly presenting a plan for why he wouldn't
make them again, I don't see any reason an employer wouldn't take a risk on
him, provided he's got chops.

It seems like most of what this article says would only be true if you were
fired very prominently from a high-profile role, or if you had an egregious
lapse in judgment that lead to serious problems at your company.

------
eekfuh
I once got fired for giving my boss the advice to "shred" their drive (it was
their last day). Someone overheard this incorrectly and thought that I said
"on my last day, that I'd shred all the companies drives".

It was my word against his and company's revenues were down significantly.
They put me on non-paid leave and a week later when they "investigated" the
matter, they fired me, but by then I had new a job with a much better company.

It was a blessing. I learned more at this new place and earned more too. It
was later acquired by Adobe (mental stagnation).

Getting fired NEVER lead to me being outcasted from the local tech community.
It instead improved my life.

~~~
ecspike
I agree. Never have been outcast from the tech community. Actually the
opposite. People reached to me about possible leads.

If you network properly when you have a job (and otherwise don't need
something from people), usually they are willing to help you out. Build your
network before you need it.

------
pacaro
FWIW there are some similarities with getting a bad review in a large
bureaucratic company (I know for HN readers this either doesn't apply, or they
wish it didn't!), one common thread that I would emphasize is that even if the
headline reason for the firing or crappy review (FOCR) is complete BS or
political or whatever, there is very likely something that you did have
control over that either precipitated the FOCR or created an excuse for it,
but the immediate shame/rage/pain of the whole FOCR may make that hard to see.
Expect to need to sit on the experience for several years before the full
value to you can be gleaned. Having been through this in a couple of guises I
have definitely learned some real lessons about both myself and the behaviour
of teams, managers, and companies.

I suspect the same can be true for some startup failures... maybe in my next
adventure I will find out.

------
mannicken
It only hurts the first time. After you get fired/quit many times, it's like
taking out trash for you. Developing some confidence goes a great way.

I mean, look, the first time I had to throw out my sketches in the dumpster
because I thought they sucked it was a painful experience. But after a while I
grew detached to the sketch, which allowed me to concentrate on my vision more
than the actual piece of paper.

------
rickmb
There is a major difference between being fired in the US and for instance
most countries in Europe, where workers rights are very strongly protected.

In the latter case, it is often very hard, time consuming, painful and costly
to fire someone. However comfortable this may seem to from an employee
perspective, if an employer decides to fire you they must really, really badly
want to get rid of you. And that can seriously damage your reputation.

The result is that instead of firing people, both parties usually make a deal:
the employee leaves "voluntarily" and gets a big fat final paycheck.
Technically no firing has taken place and the whole process is way less
confrontational. Employers will gladly give you a reference and keep quiet
about why you were let go in exchange for a smooth exit.

You'll be hard pressed to find someone in the tech industry in Europe who has
ever been fired.

------
nolliesnom
<i>"Also getting fired is something that shouldn’t come as a surprise"</i>

Sounds like an unhealthy work environment. Management was pointing fingers at
other management? Lame. Getting fired should never be a surprise.

~~~
wisty
There's a few conflicting things here. One is that you fire an employee then
moment it becomes obvious they will have to be fired, so a firing should be
quick. Another is that performance problems should be addressed - an employee
should know if their current performance is not acceptable. Finally, you don't
want an employee (especially programmers) to know that they _will_ be fired,
or they attack you from within.

Of course, it does seem like management was very passive-aggressive here. Not
good.

A quick edit - I _HATE_ the term "passive-aggressive". All usually means (in
the workplace) is "not actually doing their job until a crisis hits".

~~~
nolliesnom
I should have qualified my statement to performance problems rather than HR
violations. Agree, if you are doing your work poorly, it is either because you
are never going to be good at it or because the company hasn't set you up to
succeed. In most cases, the manager and the employee should know in advance
that there are opportunities for improvement.

Fortunately, the author doesn't say why she was fired. This allows us to
wonder if she was fired for having sex in the supply closet or doing oxy off
her company-issued tablet, which is a terminable offense at most places of
employment. If this is the case, immediate sacking is appropriate. Not that I,
as a manager, would terminate her, though. I'm a fun manager.

------
j_baker
_One was the grounds under which I would receive severance..._

She was fired from a startup and received a _severance_? Does that ever happen
these days?

~~~
severance_temp
Yes, this happens. I'm speaking anonymously here, so take my word for it if
you care to, but I know of 2 specific instances in 2 YC companies where
employees received 2-3 months severance. There is another recent case (non-yc
company) where severance took the form of high single digit vested equity for
a not-gelling founder.

Particularly with founder or near-founder departures, fair severance can be
used to keep a company legally covered down the road. Consider if Cameron and
Tyler Winklevoss had just been paid back in the day.

~~~
redthrowaway
The Winklevi were never involved with facebook, though. You could say that of
Saverin, but not them.

------
michaelochurch
He should have negotiated a positive-to-neutral fact-based reference (good
reviews, verification of salary, departure by his volition-- a revision-of-
fact but one that companies will usually support) in the severance process.
Chances are, he would have gotten it. This would have mitigated the career
damage and gotten him a good job much sooner.

Remember that a severance offer is a starting point. If the only thing you
want to add in negotiation is something that doesn't cost the company money--
good reference and a revision of the record to say you left voluntarily--
they'll usually give it, unless you did something illegal and they're afraid
to give you a good referral for liability reasons.

Getting fired is something that happens to a lot of good people... for all
kinds of bizarre and stupid reasons. I wouldn't mention it, as a general
policy, but I really doubt that he couldn't find a job because he was fired.
He probably became insecure and that did him in. He probably was also too
loose-lipped about his feelings toward the previous employer, which is even
more damaging because even if a past employer is terrible, one shouldn't let
it on in an interview.

"Persona non grata" in the tech community after a job goes bad... that's just
bizarre. In my experience, people familiar with startups are the most
forgiving of jobs that went bad or ended suddenly, for the obvious reason that
a lot of startups fail.

~~~
Sukotto
Could you go into more detail about how to ask for these sorts of things and
what extras you might throw in so you have something you can cut when
negotiating?

This strikes me as the sort of thing I should have prepared in advance, just
in case. Should I ever be fired for cause I expect I'll be too upset to think
about what to ask for and how to say it so I better work out the basics now.

~~~
apenwarr
It's as simple as this: never sign the document they hand you on the spot.
Give it a day or two, say you might need to talk to a lawyer. _They're_ firing
_you_. They really want you to sign this document. They won't actually really
take away your severance if you fail to sign in the first ten seconds, because
if they wanted to do that, they wouldn't have offered it in the first place.

Believe it or not, you have the power in that situation. That's why they want
you to sign it right away - right now you're emotionally distressed and thus
gullible.

So that's how you prepare yourself: remember that if this ever happens, DON'T
SIGN ANYTHING until you calm down. It's okay if that takes several _days._

(This is from experience at past employers, I don't speak for my current
employer, I haven't actually been fired but I've been on the other side, I am
not a lawyer, This does not constitute legal advice, blah blah.)

------
dools
I can't believe how much more serious everything seems to be in the States.

Is this story just exaggerated or is it really this bad? I've never personally
been fired but having job opportunities being so severely limited due to being
fired once seems like an impossibility in Australia.

I'd say that if you got fired over here you'd even quite likely be able to use
the employer as a reference (unless you did something totally horrible)

~~~
georgieporgie
I don't know about firing, but certainly getting laid-off is really looked
down on, regardless of circumstances. I've heard that employers do significant
background checks now. Low credit scores are a red flag. Arrests are also a
red flag. Not convictions, but _arrests_.

The social thing sounded a bit weird to me. But then, _most_ of the people
I've worked with either base their social scene around their work, or around
something else (e.g. church). If you're not in one of those groups, you'll
simply find yourself growing ever more distant.

~~~
pstack
I've never heard of being laid off as being looked down upon. Firing, sure,
but not laid off. That's beyond your control and is a business decision. If
your company wipes out an entire product because of some acquisition or poor
executive "vision" and decides they need to wipe out two thirds of your
division, that's hardly your fault. And if they have a habit of favoring
seniority, then it's even less a comment on you.

~~~
georgieporgie
_I've never heard of being laid off as being looked down upon._

You must exist on a different Internet and reality from me. :-)

Not that long ago, there was an article on HN about an internal hiring
consultant (I think) telling someone that if you don't currently have a job,
don't bother applying. I've heard project managers yammer on about how
companies use layoffs to get rid of their least productive employees.

In a down economy, when HR is faced with a flood of resumes, they start
looking for simple things which give the appearance of objectivity and wisdom,
which arbitrarily reduce their pile of resumes. 'Currently employed' becomes
one of these criteria.

~~~
ARobotics
Add me to your other reality too. I have never heard of anyone being judged
negatively for being laid off. Just about everyone understands that there may
be great people laid off when an entire division/product/org gets cut or a
company shrinks substantially.

If you're referencing the same article(s) I've read recently, it wasn't "if
you don't currently have a job, don't bother applying" it was "if someone has
been unemployed for over a year, there is probably a reason". It wasn't a
negative judgment on being laid off, it was making the assumption that a long
period of unemployment was a signal that the person may not be very hard
working or talented or whatever, and with many candidates to choose from that
signal could be a deciding factor.

------
Hominem
I've seen many people let go where it was a complete shock to them. One day
they are cranking, next day they are out one the street. The problem is
management often does not want to give warnings, or talk about how the
employee can improve. From management's perspective, any warning time is time
they are going to be out looking for a job, using the phones, printers, faxes
etc.

To say it is a messed up situation is an understatement.

------
angryasian
to clarify on the reference - i'm assuming she only mean employment history,
and I thought employers were only allowed to say the dates of your employment
and validate you did work at a company. Also I think you would have to explain
to the new company your interviewing the gaps in your employment history, if
you didin't list it at all.

As for the reference I assume you would ask a person first if you are able to
use them as a reference prior to listing them as a reference. So if your
manager fires you for reason xyz, I doubt you'd want to use them as a
reference

~~~
exit
barce doesn't look like a girl on twitter

[http://www.codebelay.com/blog/wp-
content/themes/thesis_18/cu...](http://www.codebelay.com/blog/wp-
content/themes/thesis_18/custom/rotator/sample-7.jpg)

looks like a rotation image

~~~
zephjc
I was disappointed, for a moment, I though this was the author:
[http://www.codebelay.com/blog/wp-
content/themes/thesis_18/cu...](http://www.codebelay.com/blog/wp-
content/themes/thesis_18/custom/rotator/sample-3.jpg)

~~~
barce
Ya, the pics on the side are just random pictures I took. I will definitely
re-design the blog to show the author's pic.

------
pagekalisedown
Can anyone explain to me this part: "do not mention that we fired you for 7
years"? Why would anyone have you sign something like this? What's the
importance of this?

~~~
also_fired
It means that you didn't do anything wrong but you're fired because someone
doesn't like you, or some manager is mad about something and needs to fire
someone to make a point. So don't say anything about it because we don't want
to deal with bad publicity or potential legal problems.

