

Joining a Startup Out of College is Hard (A Solution) - azeemansar
http://www.azeem.fm/2010/04/22/startup-out-of-college/

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gamble
For most people, joining a startup as an employee straight out of college is a
pretty bad career move these days. Your first job has an enormous effect on
what options will be available to you down the road. A brand-name company like
Google on the resume will open doors that a (likely failed) startup no one has
ever heard of simply won't. You can always join a startup or found your own
company later.

Prior to the dotcom crash, you could at least justify a startup on the
potential upside, but with today's meager buyouts and non-existent IPO market
even founders don't always end up with a life-changing payout. Employees
should expect nothing.

~~~
dgabriel
Nah. It depends on what kind of career you want to go into, but the very best
time to get into a startup is straight out of school. You don't have a family,
or a house, or any of the other baggage that necessitates a steady paycheck
and solid job security.

What kind of opportunities do you think you're passing up? If Google or Apple
or Microsoft want you, you can always go back and reapply after your start up
experience. Interesting doors open all the time.

My first 4 jobs were with startups, my career is fine, even though almost no
one has ever heard of the tiny awesome companies I helped to build. I have
little kids that need me around, so I found a steadier job in more established
organization (which took exactly one resume, and one interview), but I plan on
going back into the start up world when they're older.

~~~
gamble
YMMV, but in my experience resumes with 'top-shelf' names like Google or
Microsoft on them almost always get a second look during the hiring process,
even at startups. Hiring is an inherently uncertain process - association with
success is usually taken as a proxy for quality. Of course, if your resume
doesn't make the first cull you're not likely to find out why.

I worked for a couple of startups out of college. I agree that it's the
easiest time to work for a startup, but it's also when you're likely to get
the least out of the experience. Junior startup employees have no upside,
typically below-market compensation, and don't tend to get the business
experience required to start their own companies. Also - and perhaps I'm being
cynical - but in hindsight I'm a bit leery of any startup that hires
completely inexperienced staff. A startup is distinguished from a small
company by its ambition to grow quickly. Hiring staff straight out of college
means the company is prioritizing cash over growth, which suggests the
founders are either short on capital or simply short-sighted. Neither bodes
well for the company's prospects.

IMO, the best path for someone interested in startups is to work for a
'prestige' company out of college. Get some experience, build up a bit of
capital, and find your co-founders. A successful tech company is the best
environment to do that, and association with success will also make raising
money easier.

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madair
This seems more like a complaint from ivy league college grads about lack of
wealth in the technology sector compared to the finance sector. Color me
unimpressed.

~~~
azeemansar
I don't really see it as a complaint. I'm just mirror-ing what I hear from a
lot of people I went to school with; I work at a startup now and I love it.
But I know that to attract the "ivy league" talent, or any talent for that
matter, it is ideal to appeal to what they know.

And frankly, I think there is more than enough "wealth" distributed amongst VC
funds to subsidize some portion of a kid's student loans for a year or two. Is
that really that much to ask?

I just want more of my former classmates to be in technology, because they are
really smart, and their talents get wasted at high frequency hedge funds and
investment banks. So how do you get them? That's what I'm trying to answer;
passion is a big part of it, but some people need a hook or starting point.

~~~
potatolicious
> _"passion is a big part of it"_

Right, and having known a lot of the "Wall Street" type engineers in college,
I'm not sure if I really want them in my field.

Yeah, they're smart and bright (you kind of have to be in those environments),
but I know more than a few who went into engineering position at major
investment banks - soul-crushing, mind-numbing work that it is solely because
of the compensation.

Maybe this is me being too startupy-self-important, but that speaks to a
complete lack of passion, that you're willing to take on the IT equivalent of
coal mining, where the only real upside to your job is the gigantic paycheck.
On this side of the divide I'd rather have people who place an utmost
importance in the, well, _work_ of their work - someone who will take a high-
paying, rewarding position over a ludicrous-paying soul-crushing job.

This isn't some justification to pay people less - if we can sweeten the pot
for new grads I'm all for it, but I'm not sure I really want to attract Wall
Streeters to our side of the industry.

~~~
azeemansar
Agree with a lot of what you're saying, but not all of it; I want whatever it
takes to build amazing new companies that change the world, I don't really
care who's doing it, as long as more phenomenally smart people are.

~~~
potatolicious
I disagree immensely - there's a certain mindset and culture that has
contributed to the high-tech society that we see today. IMHO it is championed
and built by people who care immensely about changing the world with their
skills for the better, oftening making great personal sacrifices for their
vision - this is a poor fit for someone who is demonstrated himself to be
purely a gun-for-hire.

Phenomenally smart people spam people too, scam people also. Just because
you're smart doesn't mean I want to work with you ;) There's a certain
alignment of goals and values that has to happen, and I don't think that can
work with the demographic you're talking about.

~~~
azeemansar
Eh, can't agree with you here; too many obvious examples to the contrary. A
lot of people realize their entrepreneurial streak later in life, I'd like to
bring that moment of realization earlier and better institutionalize it as a
career path, that's all.

"gun-for-hire"; I mean, we're talking about 22 year old kids at the end of the
day right? heh

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pclark
If you're after Brand Value, Security and Compensation, joining a startup is
probably a mistake.

You're working at a company no one knows, with minimal money in bank, and
compensated primarily in equity.

Basically you'll either join/start a startup, or always find an excuse not to.

~~~
azeemansar
I disagree, I know plenty of students who just need that initial push.

Also, anyone who has worked at a startup at a junior level knows equity is
usually meaningless, and you're lucky if you're getting more than a few bps
after a certain point.

~~~
dgabriel
I don't come from an Ivy league background, but I did join a start-up directly
after school instead of joining a more traditional company. I did it because
it was interesting and seemed like way more fun, and also I could wear jeans
and combat boots to work. Money was not a motivator, and the stock options
were, of course, not worth the paper they were never actually printed on.

There are those people who feel the money draw, and that's fine, and then
there are those who prefer a different set of challenges. They go to work for
non-profits, they join start ups or become entrepreneurs, they take their
Columbia degree to the wilderness to count mayfly populations. I'm not
convinced a start up would necessarily want to attract the kind of person who
prefers money and security.

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gyardley
There's deeper issues not addressed by this article - why we've created a
culture that so highly values 'brand-name resume builders', for one. And I'd
argue that startup compensation needs to be rational even when competing
sectors are not. But there's real potential in using the prestige (deserved or
not) of a venture-capital firm as a recruiting tool.

As an aside, I hired Azeem at my startup after his post-college gig as an
investment banker, and he thoroughly kicked ass as an employee. That doesn't
come through in his blog post - I wouldn't want people who didn't know him to
think he's still an investment banker!

~~~
azeemansar
Heh, thanks Greg. I may have not expressed it clearly, but when I say
"compensation", I mean something that compels the talent you're hiring away
from other industries. I think something like student loan subsidies could be
very doable for a VC fund with hundreds of millions of dollars in capital. It
sends a strong and serious signal IMO.

I think that's what it's really about, the messaging. It's just easier to
market the names of a lot of these VC funds and the experience/track
record/millions of $s that come with them, than it is to market their
portfolio cos. It's a better hook; and on the other side of it all, venture
funds SHOULD care about developing junior talent, and actively building the
next generation of founders, entrepreneurs, etc etc. I just can't possibly
imagine how any of this ends up being a bad thing.

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jfi
Azeem, I think you highlight an important topic. I joined Wall Street after
graduating as well, because 1. It paid well and was "a good job", and 2. Was
one of the opportunities that came up to campus and was easy to interview for.
Outside of investment banks and large consulting shops, there wasn't much
else.

I think the lack of connectivity between college undergraduates and companies
that would like to recruit them, but can't easily, is a large inefficiency and
needs a solution (I feel so strongly about it, in fact, that I left finance
and founded CollegeJobConnect a year ago and have been pushing it forward ever
since to provide just such a service).

A startup can be a great place to learn and develop yourself, and when you are
just entering the professional world you can take a few risks with your career
more easily (no wife, no mortgage, etc.). However, a startup can also be a
difficult environment, so any college student needs to do their research
before jumping in.

All in all, I believe it will make you a professional weapon and give you the
experience and "get it done" skills that you won't find in other roles, but
might require a cash give-up in the short term comparatively (consider it an
investment in yourself).

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durbin
The part of working at a startup that I enjoy most is not working with
I-bank/management consulting type people. My favorite part: "a rotational
program between Sequoia’s portfolio companies". Hilarious.

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eplanit
'Brilliance' and a degree from a name-brand institution can help one achieve
success -- but is no guarantee. Never has been, and never should be.

Our wonderful system of capitalism and free markets make it such that one can
bring whatever one has to the table: degrees, IQ scores, grit, sheer
experience, connections, and even mere hope. Some are able to be very, very
successful by applying only 2 or 3 of these. No single one is a guarantee.

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garply
Joining a startup out of college is not hard. As I grew up, I went through the
educational funnel to these types of jobs (McKinsey, Google, etc) and I found
myself disliking the people around me and (especially in the case of finance /
manage consulting) disliking the work they were going to dedicate their lives
to.

So I just never applied to work at companies I found distasteful. It was quite
easy.

~~~
azeemansar
But you didn't straight out of college, which is my point.

I am in the same boat as you.

~~~
garply
I'm not sure what you mean. I never applied to any companies when I was in
college. I was courted by a few tech startups and almost joined them because
they looked interesting and fun - but at the beginning of my senior year I
decided I should make money on my own and just started laying the groundwork
for that. I basically spent the end of my senior year blowing off classes and
iterating through ideas I thought might be profitable. After I graduated, I
continued doing that. 2 years later, I have successfully bootstrapped a
profitable company.

I don't think your solution will work. The people who should join startups
don't prioritize brand value or the alleged security of working for a big
company. They may prioritize compensation - but the startup world already
answers that problem by allowing you to choose where on the risk scale you
want to be (you can always start your own company if you're like me and very
interested in compensation).

~~~
azeemansar
Oh, I misunderstood what you said; apologies.

And I don't know if you're right; I work at a startup, and my search was
almost exclusively relegated to VC-backed companies; in fact, manyt of my
friends at startups went through a similar thought process. Given that, I
would imagine it would work?

Everyone is an entrepreneur, some just need more help than others, that's all
I'm suggesting.

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j053003
Student Loan Debt = Why joining a startup out of college is hard (for some)

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pw0ncakes
This is the solution: a program where talented young people are mentored by
the VC firm, under the condition that they work for startups (as founders or
early employees) for the next 7 years. The VC does not necessarily fund their
startups, but uses its contacts to ensure that the founder remains employed
and able to survive. At the end of the 7th year, employee has the option of
joining the VC firm as entrepreneur-in-residence.

People would be less afraid of the career risk involved in starting companies
this way.

~~~
azeemansar
That's a cool idea! I don't know if it works with that timing, and those
constraints, but that's such a cool idea, just conceptually.

~~~
pw0ncakes
It's an excellent idea, but it has a flaw: it doesn't pay off in the short
term. The only think the VC gains is a connection to someone who will be
important in a few years.

I'd be pretty much an ideal candidate for such a program, but I'm pretty sure
that if I proposed it to a top VC, I'd be laughed out of the conversation.

