
Greek startups to look out for in 2016 - EU-Startups2014
http://www.eu-startups.com/2016/02/10-greek-startups-to-look-out-for-in-2016/
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return0
It's true that the prolonged crisis and unemployment are (finally) pushing
young people to start businesses. But there is very little "to look for" here,
the best developers are leaving the country as soon as they have a good MVP.

The weather is great but prohibitive taxation (and social security
contributions), confusing and sloppily implemented regulation, absence of
infrastructure and bad work ethics don't help. It's much easier to set up shop
in Cyprus.

~~~
rnnr
plus political uncertainty. Do you have any experience with Cyprus? From what
I ve heard Cyprus isnt that great either.

~~~
coldtea
What have you heard? It's very very much greater. In fact it's one of the most
popular "off shore" tax locations in Europe too.

~~~
rnnr
In relation to how modern and competitive the dev community is. As far as the
'off shore taxing', bear in mind that media exaggerate a lot, it can be done,
but you MUST have a good support team of accountants and lawyers.

~~~
coldtea
> _In relation to how modern and competitive the dev community is._

Ah, yes. I wouldn't suggest it for having the offices there. Just to
incorporate. And with online teams, you can be anywhere too.

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jamesblonde
I am considering outsourcing some dev work to Greece. The problem is the 70%
social security. I can get good people in Greece for 1700 Euro/month, total
cost 3k/month. However, in Hungary they cost only 2k/month. The Ukraine,
Romania and Egypt are even cheaper. Greeks have great expertise in databases,
but most outsourcing I need is front-end or monitoring stuff. Like most
commentators have said, most of the good ones have left...

~~~
rantanplan
Why would you pay their social security? You'd be looking for freelancers who
they'd be taking care of that themselves.

~~~
balfirevic
They will still be taking care of that out of what they get paid, I don't see
any difference.

~~~
rantanplan
Huge difference.

Since they're freelancers you're just going to be one of many clients. They
will charge you only for the hours worked. This means that whatever their
social security cost is, it's going to be spread out among their different
clients. Also when you're a freelancer the social security cost is much lower
anyway.

~~~
StavrosK
So what? You're still calculating the per month cost. Insurance us always
going to be included in that.

~~~
rantanplan
It's not a "so what". Taking care of an employee's social security is a huge
overhead for an employer.

Also the OP is talking about "outsourcing" work to Greece. I really don't
understand where social security comes in. By definition he's going to look
for freelancers.

Unless he's planning to open shop in Greece, for some weird reason, in which
case social insurance is going to be the least of his problems.

~~~
harywilke
As a freelancer, the cost to cover my taxes/social security will be calculated
into any offer i give. I am in effect employing myself and you are contracting
out an employee of my company. The rate given will need to cover the costs of
my employees taxes and social security. True i can contract out myself to
multiple clients per month and lower my rate by splitting the SS taxes between
them. but, in Greece, you run a high risk of work being canceled/delayed and
exposing yourself to tax liabilities. Don't get me started on companies that
want you to cut an invoice then pay you months later. Putting yourself into a
situation where you have income on the books, but not in the hand is a bad
idea.

~~~
balfirevic
> True i can contract out myself to multiple clients per month and lower my
> rate by splitting the SS taxes between them

Even that doesn't matter, social security and taxes will be calculated in your
hourly rate the same way whether you have multiple clients or you work full
time for only one client.

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jkot
Greece is a bad place to start company. It is practically impossible to
transfer money abroad. Complex and fast changing law system. And its expensive
compared to neighbor countries.

~~~
cgio
It's not so terrible if you are in Greece. I would not call a 500euro base
salary expensive, that might even get you someone with postgraduate studies in
the current conditions. On the law system I totally agree. Good for law
related startups?

~~~
elorant
Greek here. That 500 base salary doesn’t exist. While the nominal salary is
quite low due to the huge unemployment issue, for computer programmers it is
way beyond that. You’re looking at least at €1k monthly for an entry-level
programmer. The real problem in Greece right now, as others have mentioned in
this thread, is the insurance cost which accounts for 70% of the net salary
someone receives. So if you want to pay €2k for a salary, the real cost for
the corporation is about €3.5k. Which makes it really hard to employ
experienced people unless you’re willing to have under-the-table agreements.

~~~
iofj
Doesn't that just result in 90% of decent and up programmers illegally making
€1k - €2k on freelancer.com or alike ? Then when it's enough to finance trip +
6 months emigrate to US or, well, anywhere but Greece ?

~~~
elorant
I've never been at freelancer or any equivalent site so I can't speak from
personal experience. Aren't you expected to provide some kind of receipt on
those sites for the money you're paid? In such a case you can't hide it from
the local tax service. Unless you're providing fake receipts which sounds like
an awful idea.

~~~
iofj
The receipts are between the middleman and either party, not between the
participants in the transaction directly.

So even if seller and buyer are in Greece, freelancer.com (warning: don't use
them) is in Australia. Receipts won't make it to the authorities. Also:
freelancer.com won't care if you use a fake identity, as they're extremely
scummy and in this case it works to your advantage.

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CodeWriter23
I was all "why are these all in Greece", then re-read the headline to notice
it did not say "Geek startups".

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drzaiusapelord
Is this a joke? This must be some kind of submarine PR to encourage investment
in Greece. Greece needs to attract investors and startups by liberalizing
their economic positions, not by bs like this.

~~~
return0
Seems like the website publishes similar lists for various countries. I don't
think it's intentional, but it's weird that it made it to the frontpage of HN.

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gargalatas
Unfortunately in Greece of 2016 and for 7 years of crisis now there has been
nothing made to help business. Every government passed and left without
improving bureaucracy and limiting corruption even a little bit on the
government services. And these stuff are FREE! What can you expect from such a
bad business legislative framework? Right now the taxation, even without the
payments in advance the government asks from the enterprises, exceeds 80%! Who
can make business with such numbers?

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johansch
lol.

