
Retiring? - dankohn1
https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2018/10/25/On-Retirement
======
esotericn
Seems a bit all or nothing/permanent, though I don't have the perspective of
age quite yet.

In my mind, paid work is the 'degraded' form of life; you do it when you have
to, for as long as you have to, and aim to not be doing it.

I've probably spent less than half of my adult life "working" (easy as a
software dev, a starting salary is more than double minimum wage).

That doesn't mean I'm not studying/working in the abstract sense (I work on my
own projects or play sysadmin or whatever), but money really shouldn't be an
issue I think, unless you inflate lifestyle to require an always-on income.

I think another poster dealt with this well. A job is a job, work is work,
they are seperate. Work is good; jobs are necessary evil.

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monster_group
I have decided to not wait until retirement to do things that I want. I don't
know if I will have health and money to do things when I retire. I have a full
time job and I try to manage my time well so that I have free time and time to
pursue hobbies. As a result my career will most likely suffer and overall I
will make less money but I am OK with that trade off. I am happier, less
stressed out, get time to pursue my hobbies, have more time with family. I
think that's a good deal.

~~~
ghaff
I haven't done it more recently for a variety of reasons but in a former job I
took month-long vacations every couple of years. I definitely knew co-workers
who thought this was just shocking and had trouble wrapping their heads around
just taking extended time off like that. (I still take my full vacation; I
just haven't taken it in such a large chunk recently.)

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czbond
Never retire. It is the downfall of a human being; you don't want to stop
working, you're just wanting a different routine. The author mentioned things
they'd prefer to do; oddly enough, they can all be done WHILE working. Maybe
stop having a J.O.B. , but not working. I plan to work into my mid-80's.

~~~
wjnc
My anecdata with my parents generation suggests the same. Quite often retirees
I know grow 'old' quite overnight after retiring. One or two even died soon
after retirement with no prior illnesses. The total absence of
responsibilities is what I contribute it too. You don't want too much stress
in your life, and winding down a bit at 60+ seems legit, but a sound daily
rhythm and outside expectation just seem to fit with being a social animal.
They all want to see the grandkids more but end up mostly being entertained
while doing groceries. Obviously a massive simplification of other peoples
real lives, but the fittest 60+ yr olds I meet are usually (partially)
employed. I totally acknowledge that it is more feasible for consultant-type
white collar jobs and that on it's own is a subset with different health
characteristics, so I'd happily learn of more research in this area.

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larrywright
I’m not quite there yet (mid-40s), but I have reached the point where I’ve
started thinking about what life would be like post-career. I have no desire
to sit around watch the news all day, or commiserate over coffee with other
retirees, but like Tim, I have any number of projects that could be
interesting to work on. They’re unlikely to be profitable, but would be fun to
build, and would keep the gears turning.

Regarding his comment about his father declining rapidly after retirement,
this seems to be a frequent enough occurrence - I heard some statistic once
about a large percentage of people dying within 6 months of retirement, but
I’ve no idea if it’s accurate. I’m wondering if there are studies that have
looked at why this is and what separates people who live long lives after
retirement, and those who don’t.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
My guess is a lot of people retire early because they are ill, that a lot of
those studies have the causation backwards.

~~~
larrywright
I was wondering the same thing as I posted that. It would definitely make
sense.

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beat
A couple of months ago, I had a nice conversation with a local restaurant
owner. He's in his 70s, and mostly runs the place himself, doing the waiting
and the cooking. His wife died a few years back, his kids are grown, and what
else is he going to do? Watch tv? Move back to Trinidad? (He's lived in
Minneapolis since the 1960s) Nah. He likes to cook, he has loyal customers due
to his flatly amazing food, and he feels useful. It keeps him going. I'm sure
if he "retired", he'd be dead not long after.

~~~
mastax
Minneapolis? Can you share the restaurant? Anything that leaves that big of an
impression is worth visiting.

~~~
beat
Harry Singh's Caribbean. If you like spicy, and like Indian food (Trinidad
food is basically Indian food), it's a must-try. He's the Picasso of chili
peppers. Do _not_ order "as hot as you can make it", because you'll just annoy
him and he might have to call an ambulance. I recommend getting the roti with
whatever filling you like - he makes all his roti by hand, refusing to use a
machine, because it makes a real difference. Jerk chicken and curried
vegetables are standouts, but it's all amazing. If in doubt about heat levels,
order milder than you expect and ask for hot sauce. He makes his own from
Trinidad scorpion peppers...

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sampl
This article equates “exciting work” with “9-5 job at BigCo”.

After going independent, my impact has only gotten bigger and my work more
interesting and engaging. Write and share what you’ve learned, consult, do
OSS, be an “emeritus”, work part time... these require the ability to self-
manage, but it’s a skill that can be learned like anything else.

Why a financially independent person would spend most of their waking hours
chipping away on Amazon’s problems is baffling to me.

~~~
jypepin
I think he explains it pretty clearly. Seems like pretty low stress for him,
he seems to be enjoying it and it gives him the opportunity to work on high
scale projects, which is more tricky to get when being independent.

I guess the perfect work for him would be to find a way to start contracting
for his current position, but I can see how he's happy at work.

On another note, I became independent myself recently and I totally agree with
you. I don't see myself going back to another company ever, but I'm still
opened to the idea, because it might allow me to get to work on super
interesting problems somehow.

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finaliteration
Maybe I’m crazy, but I feel like I would get really bored if I were to retire
and stop working altogether. I’m in the very fortunate position that I really
enjoy the work that I do so that obviously helps. I also love the interactions
that occur while working on projects and in business that I’m not sure you
really get once you’re retired.

I also know a number of older folks (70+) who kept working and it seems like
they are still quite a bit more “with it” because they have work to keep them
motivated. That’s not to say there aren’t retired people like that, but my
sense is that it’s more common among people who keep working beyond retirement
age.

~~~
melcor
I believe your chances of staying "with it" increases if you have something
meaningful to do and to exercise both your body and mind.

My late grandpa was still quite bright when he was in his 90's. He kept doing
work around the house and going for hikes till his last days.

If I ever get to retire before I die, I'll find something to do for "work",
but I'll probably not work for someone else.

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cerberusss
According to Wikipedia, he's 63. Doesn't seem to be all that old, from my
perspective (I'm 40). Good on him, that he has the money to call it quits. I'm
saving/investing money to be in that position as well, after reading about the
FIRE movement.

~~~
fasteo
Thanks for the reference to the FIRE ("Financial Independence, Retire Early")
movement. Bookmarking the documentary[1] for this weekend.

[1] [https://www.playingwithfire.co/the-
documentary/](https://www.playingwithfire.co/the-documentary/)

~~~
cerberusss
Never saw any documentary, I just read this classic:
[http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-
sim...](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-
behind-early-retirement/)

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gdubs
One of my favorite books, "A Pattern Language" [1] – which is a sort of
architecture manifesto / philosophy book – has a section related to building a
workshop for retirement. The idea is that retirement shouldn't be an end, but
rather a transition to a kind of work more suited towards one's later years.
In building that space, one starts preparing for that next chapter,
considering what that new role will look like, and eventually moving into it
when the time is right.

1:
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/79766.A_Pattern_Language](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/79766.A_Pattern_Language)

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ggm
This is constantly in my mind as a 57 yo computer scientist with an
uninterrupted working career since 1982.

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ryandrake
I'm jealous that he's able to have "money" as the last (least important?) item
in each of the pro/con lists for retiring. I can say the only think keeping me
from retiring today is my perpetually insufficient $$$ savings.

I can understand his "reasons to retire" list, but his "reasons to keep
working" 1-7 don't resonate with me at all. I mean, I'm glad my own career
lets me do some of those kinds of things (moving the needle, working with
great people, etc.) but it's not a "reason to not retire." Not saying I'm
right and he's wrong, but I feel that strange feeling when you read something
from someone whose world view totally unaligned with your own! To be so
wrapped up in your career and to have it so strongly define who you are--it
seems so alien.

I look at the CxOs and SVP level people in my TechMegaCorp employer and wonder
why on earth they still come to work every day. They all have more money than
God, and could literally stop any time they wanted, and do whatever they
wished to do. Collect airplanes, travel the world, build a monorail for the
city, but no, they simply keep on being SVP of software technology or
whatever. The mind boggles!

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rbanffy
We can always negotiate a shorter work week, or shorter/time-shifted work
days, or move to a place/company where that can happen. It's easier if you are
The Tim Bray, but I've done it before and, if I can do it, so can anyone.

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mud_dauber
I'm 58. The only reason I haven't already made the decision is because, well,
I've never retired before. It's hard to _know_ that you've got enough to last
the next 30+ years.

I've three income legs - pensions, SS & 401K money. Each has its own perils;
all of them seem to have the US's growing instability at their core. Being an
expat is looking better and better.

~~~
ensignavenger
Have you considered transferring some of your 401k funds to foreign funds?
Perhaps that would help you to feel more diversified?

~~~
mud_dauber
It's an option, but not enough make a major dent. (IMO.) But thanks for
tickling that corner of my brain.

~~~
CompelTechnic
If you actually want to know the likelihood of your retirement income sources
failing use firecalc.com.

The U.S. descending into anarchy is unlikely. The way you are talking it
sounds like you're flying by the seat of your pants and feeding into your own
paranoia, even though you may be just fine. The backtesting data used in
firecalc includes the Great Depression, so is likely to already include your
worst nightmares.

~~~
mud_dauber
We actually use a similar tool via our Financial Advisor. It Monte Carlos a
probability of meeting our goals and says we're >95%. So you may be right.

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davidwparker
> 6\. I want to write a tru­ly great Twit­ter client for An­droid Au­to, to
> keep me in­formed as I cruise down the road.

Please for the love of all, no.

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arthurcolle
> I want to write a tru­ly great Twit­ter client for An­droid Au­to, to keep
> me in­formed as I cruise down the road.

Maybe the whole piece is satire.

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zrail
I'm 34. My plan is to have a big enough nest egg to retire (even if it's a
pretty lean retirement) at 40 and be actually ready to retire by the time my
oldest kid graduates HS, which will be when I'm 50. My wife and I want to see
the world before big chunks of it are under water, so that's what we'll be
doing in retirement.

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Tomte
"Pro­gres­sive friend­s, peo­ple whose opin­ions I re­spec­t, give me shit
about work­ing for Ama­zon."

I hope he's exaggerating. While I can see how friends can meaningfully
criticise him, if he feels like shit afterwards, they are not very good
friends.

~~~
ryandrake
I think you might be interpreting the figure of speech wrong: You can "give
someone shit" in a joking or less serious way. It doesn't necessarily end with
personal internal crisis. I used to give my buddy shit for being an investment
banking associate, "you're helping to cause Wall Street to take over the
world, duuuuude!" over a couple of beers.

~~~
Tomte
Good to know!

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lallysingh
I think a good middle ground is taking care of an open source project.
Something simple but important, where experience counts a lot more than
rambunctious energy to add a bunch of poorly thought-out features that will
cause problems.

Some projects need greybeards.

~~~
ghaff
If it's something other than a personal hobby project, you usually can't just
dip in and out as you feel like it or have time and disappear for a month or
two because you want to go on a long trip somewhere.

As I wrote elsewhere, this is the general problem with part-time activities
for me. Cutting back on the hours per day or days per week is pretty
straightforward. But extended absences are a lot harder.

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rootbear
I would hope that Amazon would be smart enough to let someone like Tim semi-
retire. I'm just a few years younger and I completely sympathize with what he
says about being tired after a full day at work. I have a raft of project I'm
not working on, largely due to not having the energy I once had. Maybe working
30 hours, or 20 hours, a week should be an option for more people. I would
seriously consider working half time if I still got health care. I expect
health care will keep me on the job until age 65 even if I have the money to
quit sooner.

~~~
ghaff
The problem for me--and I've thought about this--is that shorter days wouldn't
really buy me anything (I already have a lot of flexibility) and a 4 or 3 day
week would only buy me, well, longer weekends. Those would be nice but nothing
life-changing. What I'd really like to do is take regular extended vacations
to go hiking, etc. And, once you're heading off for a month here and there,
it's really hard to keep up with what's going on/being someone people can
depend on/etc.

It is possible in some roles where things don't change all that much, you
don't need to deal with the business side, and tasks are fairly short in
duration. (I knew someone who worked as a lawyer for around 6 months a year.)
But for me, disappearing for a month or two at a time and unplugging would be
hard to pull off while doing what I do now.

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village-idiot
Retiring without a plan for what you’re going to do with all the time is a
very bad idea. You don’t have to have hobbies and what not planned out with
the rigor you’d bring to a day job, but you need _something_. I’ve seen far
too many people in my family retire, plop down in front of a TV, and fall
apart mentally and physically within a few years.

Social contact is good too, and an underrated aspect of in person day jobs.
Social isolation kills.

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mdellavo
please don't write that twitter client

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dang
Ivan Sutherland quoting Fred Brooks: "It's not that I'm not planning to
retire, I'm planning _not_ to retire."

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR9pAaQlVRc#t=2m30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR9pAaQlVRc#t=2m30)

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EADGBE
I'll be in that position, minus the fame, eventually as well.

I'm leaning more towards a second career around 50 at this point. Not any stop
in work really, until much later. Just something less stressful; and to say _I
finally did it_.

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natmaka
It seems to me that his reasons to retire are much more geared towards himself
than are his reasons to keep working(?)

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timwaagh
retire if you can. really at the end of your life you are never going to say
to yourself 'i worked too little', but 'what would have happened if i had
stayed on holiday a while longer in spring 2018 instead of going back to work'

