
Poor in India Starve as Politicians Steal $14.5 Billion of Food - codelion
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-28/poor-in-india-starve-as-politicians-steal-14-5-billion-of-food.html
======
pessimist
Incidentally, the problematic public distribution system is solved in parts of
India, most notably the southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu -
<http://www.thehindu.com/arts/magazine/article2475948.ece>. The estimated loss
in Tamil Nadu is 4%, as opposed to over 90% in some states.

Tamil Nadu politicians are not any less corrupt than other states. However the
PDS has some notable features:

1\. It is universal - not restricted to only people below the "poverty line".
Thus many people are incentivized to have it work.

2\. The PDS "ration" shops are run cooperatively by localities and villages,
not private dealers.

3\. Simple schemes make it transparent like an SMS that will reply telling you
the current stock of a given shop, when new stocks will arrive and so on so
that the shop keeper cannot simply cheat you out of your ration.

~~~
kamaal
My point is why give free food at all?

If we help boost agriculture productivity and work on our economy most people
will be able to buy food.

We must avoid giving Freebies. Giving away things for free/subsidy is the root
cause of the problem.

~~~
EliRivers
How is that possibly the root cause of the problem? Right now, there IS enough
food to feed these people; it's being stolen before they get it.

"My point is why give free food at all?"

Because these people are starving? Is that not a good reason?

~~~
anovikov
"being stolen before they get it" - nonsense!

1) There is an X amount of food and Y number of people in India. 2) Someone is
eating that food (let's assume nothing gets thrown out/rots because of
corruption: someone who steals food eventually sells it and it gets eaten, not
trashed)

Meaning: corruption does not change the supply and demand, so it doesn't
impact the prices (total money that is charged for the food in the country).
It only changes the hands which get the money. Nobody starves because of the
food getting stolen unless, again, the stolen food is either trashed or ends
up exported.

~~~
intended
>. 2) Someone is eating that food (let's assume nothing gets thrown out/rots
because of corruption: someone who steals food eventually sells it and it gets
eaten, not trashed)

That is a simplification. It is both being stolen and it is rotting.

Even the article states that there is tons of food that is rotting/wasting
away. If it doesn't mention it, I can give examples of food stock being wasted
from as long back as, I think 1970-1980.

Also - Corruption DOES shift the supply curve so "corruption does not change
supply and demand" is only true in the land of platonic ideals.

~~~
kamaal
I think his point is stealing food redirects it those who need it and can
afford it.

So the problem shifts from corruption to affordability. The free food program
exists because they can't afford it. If we can fix the affordability problem,
there won't be a need for a free food program and there by corruption related
to it won't exist.

These people need to get jobs. But since they don't have it. You may by all
means fix corruption and give them free food, but they will hungry again in
the next six months. Where will you get free food from, then and till when?

~~~
intended
It redirects food to people who have the buying power.

IIRC Mr. A. Sen won the nobel for showing that people starved not because of
lack of food, but because of lack of purchasing power.

The wiki page suggests that his findings are being debated though, to be fair.

My google foo is also a bit literal at the moment, and I wasn't able to
produce a result which explained what he won his nobel for.

------
kshatrea
In India, there are several levels of bureaucracy that are involved. The main
layer is called the Public Distribution System (PDS), whereby people are
issued ration cards and allowed to purchase a certain amount of food at
subsidized prices, or in poor families, given it for free. There is a colossal
amount of corruption and theft; people simply report grains as sold and sell
it on the black market. Due to the immense number of small traders and grocers
who take cash and sell stuff without receipts, there are no taxes paid on
this, and so everyone involved makes a profit, except for those whom this is
supposed to benefit. Also, the sole source of storage are government granaries
& silos, where a lot of food has either been found to have rotted, or been
stolen. While people on HN are busy reading all the time about various Indian
inefficiencies, corruptions and crimes, let us not forget that India's history
is a socialist one (and like all socialist economies, the inefficiencies are
built into the system - look at Venezuela/Cuba/Argentina/Hungary etc. today),
and it is only in the last 20 years that there has been some liberalization
and the Indian entrepreneur's spirit has been allowed to flourish. As you can
see from all these headlines, there is still a long way to go for free market
reforms. There are several sectors like the agricultural sector, energy sector
and construction sector, where reforms would help a lot.

------
kamaal
My boss once told me fix the cause, not the effect.

Free food subsidies are really doomed for failure. This is in part a lack of
long term solutions to these problems. Around 12-15 years back in India
everybody had something called 'Ration card'. Its there today too, but back
then you were eligible for rations at subsidized prices, I remember standing
in long queues outside ration shops for wheat, rice, oil, sugar and kerosene.
Needless to say these schemes were a legacy of the communist set up that India
had for a long time. Realizing that this is not likely to scale. The
government now issued new cards called 'BPL cards'(BPL- Below poverty line).
That means this wasn't even for the poor, this was for the poorest among the
poor. This is failing too. There are also other food schemes, in my state
Karnataka, kids in government schools get mid day meals called 'Akshaya
Patra'. Which is largely bad food served. Often contracted to some guy who
pays the highest bribe. The food is generally unhygienic and lacks nutrition.
I think by now everybody must know these free food schemes are a big failure.

The problem is India has huge inefficiencies in agriculture. The farming
framework is massively unproductive. There are many reasons for this. Firstly
the methods themselves belong to old stone age. Many farmers in villages farm
with cows and bulls. Fertilizers/insecticides/pesticides are abused to the
core to boost production. Irrigation isn't figured out yet. There are some
major dams, but irrigation infrastructure is just totally absent. Droughts and
floods are common. We either don't have water when we need it or there is
simply too much water and we don't what to do about it. Farming land is
subject to division through inheritance.

Apart from this the distribution is broken. Tons of grain rots because its not
shipped and transported. Middle men act as a parasites in entire food-supply
chain and add no value driving the end consumer prices high.

There are various experiments carried out especially forming communities in
villages to encourage building local reservoirs and other efficient farming
methods. But this will take a long time.

The political parties are dead opposed to FDI's in retail and farming. There
by technology inflow from outside is limited. All this for vote bank politics.

Basically India is reeling under effects of its communist past and is held
back because of inefficiencies of its political system combined sum total
ignorance among the farmers.

So its not just corruption there are train of issues that result in these sort
of problems.

------
patio11
_If you can buy a Pepsi in every village in India, why can’t the government
get us our rations?_

This is a quote for the ages.

~~~
kamaal
This actually speaks volumes of the true nature of the problem.

The problem is distribution and affordability.

You can buy Pepsi for ten rupees, and the fact that its everywhere talks a lot
of Pepsi's distribution model.

------
ycycyc
Does anyone keep in perspective that the biggest achievement of independent
India is avoiding famines thanks partly to the help of the "rotten" PDS?

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famines_in_India>

I think this article follows a pattern of op-eds in India: the private sector
eyes a plump public-sector undertaking. Suddenly there is a series of articles
often pointing at the weakest link in the chain - Uttar Pradesh or Bihar is
always there to be poster boys of decay, the articles never focus on
functional systems in the south, like Kerala or TamilNadu - and then
libertarians chime in on how any kind of sharing/caring/government is bad. Lo
and behold, due to the weight of public opinion, the sector is sold off -
classic crony capitalism.

------
lionhearted
Serious question --

Stories like this come out of India fairly often.

How come the government hasn't been overthrown yet?

Or severe riots, insurrections, etc?

Seems like that would happen elsewhere, no?

~~~
aniket_ray
I'd say apathy of the masses is the biggest reason that any of the things you
mention haven't happened.

In this article, for instance, only the poorest of the poor are truly starving
and the vast majority just doesn't care enough to protest. While the middle
classes are too busy with their own lives, the poorest and most disadvantaged
people are too busy trying to eke out a basic living to actually protest about
it.

Let me try to list some reasons as to why.

India has no real opposition party in the centre or most of the states. Most
ruling parties end up having uncontrolled power.

Corruption has become so pervasive in the Indian pillars of governance that we
don't really have a Law & Order System anymore. The Police are corrupt and the
judicial system is corrupt. Criminals thrive, as long as they have money.

Failure of the Law & Order system encourages corruption in the political
class. The times that an opposition party does become a bit powerful, they end
up being just as corrupt as the ruling party. Most Indian election candidates
use the support of various mafia and unscrupulous businessmen to win
elections. Once they win this way, they need to help such people now that they
are in power.

Over a period of time, these issues have become so pervasive in the Indian
system that today the educated and the middle classes stay away from politics.
They live in their own laissez-faire life with private utilities, security and
medicine. They pay their taxes but don't expect much from the government in
return as long as the government doesn't interfere or hinder them.

The powerful media is too busy and is rarely anti-government because
government advertising forms a big part of their revenues. So they don't carry
such stories for long. The media has their own pressures since they have to
keep circulations high by keeping the prices virtually free.

A section of the civil society had been trying to hold anti-corruption
protests in recent times. They started with a lot of support but soon the
media lost interest in them and nobody really pays any attention to their
rallies anymore.

Now for all these reasons, the middle classes are mostly apathetic to the
plight of the poor or the fact that the rich are exploiting the nation.

~~~
kamaal
>>In this article, for instance, only the poorest of the poor are truly
starving and the vast majority just doesn't care enough to protest. While the
middle classes are too busy with their own lives, the poorest and most
disadvantaged people are too busy trying to eke out a basic living to actually
protest about it.

Oh, common please stop this.

If the poor worried about themselves, they will no longer be poor. Expecting
other protest for you, earn for you, farm for you is a thing of the communist
past.

Nobody is going to come and do it for them.

~~~
aniket_ray
Not sure what you're getting at but as I mentioned there are way too few
people in the weakest sections that they would be able to garner any political
muscle.

Also, your whole idea that only the affected should protest in a society is
grossly simplistic and if I might say then naive. A society exists to protect
all its members including the weaker sections. This has nothing to do with
communism.

Social evils are fought by the society as a whole. Should men not fight for
women rights, should straight people not stand up for LGBT rights, what about
priveliged races against racism?

I think you need to think your argument through without getting needlessly
worked up.

I'm invoking Godwin here but this quote is thoroughly apt.

When the Nazis came for the communists, I said nothing; I was, of course, no
communist. When they locked up the Social Democrats, I said nothing; I was, of
course, no Social Democrat. When they came for the trade unionists, I said
nothing; I was, of course, no trade unionist. When they came for me, there was
no one left who could protest.

~~~
kamaal
Sorry, if I could not explain it well. Lets say I am one of those poor
affected. This is happening since years. What should I do:

1\. Wait for free food to arrive every six months.

2\. Note the pattern that the current job/work/profession is not working out
and shift to something else instead.

3\. Wait for somebody else to protest for me, and stubbornly insist for a free
food package every time my village goes hungry.

If I were the person I will opt for 2).

But I take your point that we must protest. But protest against what? These
men are in need of jobs, the maximum we ask for is the government to pass
reforms which can create jobs.

Without this we can very well fix corruption and solve this for the moment.
But they will need food again in the next six months. Like I said before, now
this time where will you get the free food from? and how long will this
continue?

~~~
luser001
Here's another free anecdote for you. You seem pretty smart, but you need to
think _hard_ about your model of the world. Cancel that Economist subscription
(I subscribe, btw) if you need to. :)

Anyway, at an NGO that tries to build skills among the poor, the middle-class
employees were all talking happily about how nice it was that it rained the
previous night, because it had been a hot few months. One of the trainees then
quietly said during the conversation that people like them don't really like
the rain, because it pours in through their shanties and _RUINS THEIR STORED
FLOUR_ (!!) that they use to make rotis.

The last part was that the thing that nobody (including me) had ever thought
about. That takes the suckage due to rain to a whole new level.

~~~
Jach
Here's what people like kamaal probably think to that sob story (which is sad,
no doubt, but I find myself thinking the same thing): is it _really_ that
difficult to make a small volume, where you put _important things_ ,
waterproof? I grew up in a fairly conservative part of the US, and I was in
boyscouts when I was younger (only achieved my First Class), I know it's not
that hard and children can do it. Same with making a bridge.

If you've never watched the Vice Guide to Liberia ([http://www.vice.com/the-
vice-guide-to-travel/the-vice-guide-...](http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-
to-travel/the-vice-guide-to-liberia-full-length)) you should. One of the
things that stood out to me when reflecting on it is the very first few
seconds when they're crossing stagnate water likely containing disease and
insects carrying disease. There are nevertheless trees around and lots of dirt
--why no bridges? In West Point, why no latrines and toilet pits near or on
the beach? Why is there so much systematic incompetence?

In the US at least much of the systematic incompetence comes from the fact
many homeless people have some form of mental illness. You can excuse these
people and by all means help them, some can even become quite "normal" and
productive if they have access to medication that helps keep them stable. The
rest? It's hard to find much pity for them.

I don't think my attitude here is particularly "conservative" either, but more
due to an engineering personality. If there's a problem, fix it. Unfortunately
many poor people give in (through culture, religion, or something else) to a
sort of defeatism or general acceptance of their suffering, and those that are
theoretically capable of imagination and problem solving nevertheless shirk
from it. That's what is truly depressing to me.

~~~
luser001
> is it really that difficult to make a small volume, where you put important
> things, waterproof?

Obviously, they would started doing so after the rains started. The point of
the story is not to say that the poor are too stupid/poor/helpless to figure
out how to protect a few kilos of flour.

The point of the story is like quantum mechanics, the effects of events on a
poor person will sometimes be surprising and hard for a non-poor person to
understand.

------
zizee
Corruption, above all else, is the biggest thing holding humanity back, but I
wonder if it is possible to cleanse corruption from a society where it is so
deeply ingrained?

Are there any good examples of a really corrupt society successfully making
the transition to an relatively uncorrupted state?

~~~
yk
I would argue that the transition from feudal societies to modern nations is a
example for such an transition. On a much shorter timescale, there seems to be
quite some variability in corruption[1]. And connecting the plot lines, there
seems no show stopper at any value of this corruption metric, so there seems
to be no problem in principle to move from a very corrupt society to a
uncorrupt one on a timescale of 20 years.

Playing a bit further with the data, the correlation between corruption and
GDP is rather impressive [2].

[1] Google public data explorer link: <http://bit.ly/PQ12bj>

[2] Again Google: <http://bit.ly/Ttp24m>

~~~
zizee
Agreed, I was thinking that as well. I wonder if the same factors in
transforming those societies all those years ago could be used in the modern
world? Or has the world changed so much since then that the same factors could
no longer apply?

Things like much larger populations, greater mobility and communications may
make the solution to corruption a lot different today than what worked in the
past.

------
anovikov
No 'public distribution system' can ever fix any of problems society faces. It
just makes government bigger, in the end making things worse. Maybe it's okay
in big cities where you give free food to avoid people killing for it, i.e.
suppressing crime, but works only in conjunction with strong law enforcement.
Nobody is going to become a better/more productive person because (s)he
received free food for years.

~~~
lilsunnybee
Everyone has received free food for years: it's called childhood. Saying that
just because someone has their most basic needs provided for they won't strive
for a better life is preposterous.

------
auser678
This makes me so angry and sad. I see such corruption happening everyday.
Uttar Pradesh is a state of 200 million people and one of the most backward
and corrupt states.It is another fact that Uttar Pradesh due to the sheer
number produces some of the best talent in India and the world. Most of these
people migrate out of Lucknow and UP. I wish more of them would come back and
try to build companies so that more jobs are created. We just watch from far
and lament but do nothing about it. We have made a small start by being based
here, and hope we can make an impact.

------
j45
I have read that there is no rule of law in India, meaning corruption from top
to bottom so deep that the average person is living a more and more miserable
life.

~~~
j45
Appreciate the downmod, would appreciate a reason/discussion about the above
even more

------
npguy
I am surprised why nobody has questioned the harsh language in the title. Read
it again - Poor starve as politicians Steal - "Steal"?

------
yarrel
The market wants people to die.

All we can do is help it decide how many.

Apparently.

------
ramsetal
this is the real story that really depress me!

------
huntesh
thanks to the contention arising due to equitable distribution of food among
the states, the grains rots in the godowns again.

another major disadvantage of democracy.

------
noobplusplus
How are hackers supposed to hack it off? I don't understand why such news
travels to the top of HN. In case no one has a soln. for it, why write big
posts? IF you gotta do something go and do it, i am pretty sure, the ones who
are most concerned won't be hanging around here. This seems to me OT.

~~~
kamaal
HN is a place people across the world meet.

Its a place to learn and know interesting perspectives. Just as there have
been discussion on inefficiencies of agriculture in the US, fights in
McDonalds over glasses and other US political stuff things like this get
discussed.

It gives a perspective to people on poverty in the world and how things are
else where beyond your cubicle and first world countries.

~~~
biot
According to PG's guidelines, the criteria roughly boils down to whether or
not something gratifies your intellectual curiosity. Shall we flood HN with
stories of corruption in the Congo, Thailand, Haiti, Russia, Egypt, and so on?
Maybe HN should have a weekly feature of poverty-stricken AIDS victims in
various countries in Africa? Perhaps title this weekly feature "Poverty
Perspectives Beyond the Cubicle"?

Stories like these, while tragic, are not new phenomena. Unless one is naive,
one should already know that the world is full of corruption and that there
isn't anything particularly novel about this brand of corruption. On the other
hand, a story about cleverly planted subtle bugs in a high-frequency trading
algorithm would make for a great HN story involving corruption since the
details would be intellectually gratifying. But plain old selling of supplies
meant for the poor? That's been going on forever. How is your intellect
gratified by hearing about yet one more case?

~~~
kamaal
Agreed,

That is why probably most people on this thread are discussing agricultural
methods, distribution and issues related economy.

Besides you always have a right to flag this.

~~~
biot
I've apparently flagged too many submissions which I thought weren't HN
material as last week the flag option disappeared for me. Perhaps flagging a
submission is heavy-handed (I rarely used it for comments), but as there's no
downvote option on a submission that was the only signaling mechanism.

------
eplanit
No disrespect to the people described in the article, but how is this relevant
on HN?

------
simula67
First of let me say that I am from India. I have been watching the number of
(negative) political posts regarding India on HN for quite some time now[1]

What are the benefits and costs of discussing these issues here on HN?

Some benefits: 1\. It gives rise to a discussion which hopefully translates to
solutions and actions for future 2\. It is a nice break from discussing
technology ( ?? ) Some costs: 1\. HN being an international forum, it gives an
idea that India is choke full of problems that nothing good will come out of
India [2]. No wonder latest discussion on India's Mars vision was derided
along the lines of "Get food to your people first" 2\. It is not of interest
to a large number of hackers 3\. It is a fertile ground for armchair
theorizing.

I am of the opinion these stories should be flagged.

[1][http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/submissions&q=ind...](http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/submissions&q=india&start=0)
[2]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negativity_bias>

~~~
genwin
Such stories shouldn't be flagged according to the submission guidelines.

