
Ask YC:  What are the going rates for consulting gigs? - iamelgringo
I'm wondering if people have any sense of what consulting gigs are paying these days.  I'm sure that the pay rate varies by geography, industry, computer language and technology.<p>My primary interest is in hearing what LAMP, Django and RoR gigs are paying, but I'd also love to hear what DB consultants are making as well.<p><i></i>* edit <i></i>*<p>Okay, I just want to clarify my question a little.  Despite what people may infer, I'm not asking "How much can I charge?" I'm career changing, and I worked contract work as an ER/ICU nurse for 8 years.  Nurses in the contract biz were pretty free and open with hourly salaries and living allowance ranges.  I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that there is a similar culture in the software world.<p>I am asking for a rough ball-park.  I'm looking for a range that people are making from "Oh, my God, they got screwed and will be eating ramen for months." to "I can't she had the balls to ask for that rate."<p>Not knowing the tech contracting business too well, I'm just asking for a lay of the land.  If this is a taboo subject.... my bad.  Please disregard.
======
norcalgrrl
I don't know why people are dancing around this issue. I'll name some dollar
amounts for you. As a LAMP consultant, I charged $100/hr. USD take-home and
worked W-2. I'm now looking to get into independent (non-W2) consulting and
will be charging from $50-$100/hr. USD on a sliding scale based on the type of
work and the ability of the client to pay. Not all small businesses can pony
up $100/hr., but mid-to-large corporate clients certainly can. Database tuning
gigs can see $250-$300+ hr., but that's a very specialized skill set. You'll
need to determine the going rate for your market and start out in the middle
of it. If you go to low, you sell yourself short and look cheap (which can
sometimes give the illusion of poor quality). If you aim too high, you price
yourself out of the market.

Good luck!

~~~
mixmax
Here are my numbers:

I do project management, usability, and generally make sure everything is on
track - so it might not be exactly what you're looking for. But for what it's
worth I charge $150 an hour, and can be negotiated down to around $100 if it's
more than 2-300 hours.

My experience is that you shouldn't sell yourself too cheaply, since your
customers then will regard you as being not very good at what you do.

~~~
edw519
You said,

"My experience is that you shouldn't sell yourself too cheaply"

and

"can be negotiated down to around $100"

My experience is that I don't negotiate. About half my prospects offer
something lower. I usually say something like, "I don't compromise my rates
and I don't compromise my work." Most of them accept. But it's OK, even if
they don't. Just never allow yourself to be in the position where you have to
negotiate because you need the gig so badly.

~~~
mixmax
Yes, I know people that never negotiate their price, and it seems to work for
them. But if I get a job that lasts for 3 months I am willing to cut on my
price, since it means that I have to spend less time getting new gigs. And at
an hourly rate of $100 it will still make me $16.000 a month which I think is
pretty decent.

~~~
edw519
OK, I misunderstood.

Presenting a lower price is not the same as presenting your customary price
and then reducing it after a negotiation.

------
larrykubin
I do a lot of PHP work in Austin, TX. I charged my very first client $65/hour.
I was pretty excited about that at the time (whoa, someone will pay me
$65/hour!). Then I realized that this was very cheap to many businesses, and
saw how much many "agencies" were charging to complete a project. I then got a
couple more clients and raised this to $75, then $95, and still haven't had
anyone turn me down. Most people would say that means to charge more, but I
haven't done this yet...

If you can find a few good clients that pay consistently and are really cool
to work with, you can make a really good living working about 20 hours/week,
especially if you live in a city where the costs aren't outrageous. As said
above, you need to talk to a lot of people. As edw519 said above, if you do
consulting and talk to enough people, it's surprising how you feel as though
you "luck out" and get some good, well paying work.

------
gexla
Sorry, you are not going to get away with it that easy. This is like going up
to that hot girl you have been eyeballing and saying "I really want to go
through the whole dating process because I really don't understand it, can we
just skip all that and get straight to serious relationship?"

This question is nearly impossible to answer and a very personal decision.
Nobody here can tell you how much you are worth. For example, am I doomed to
crap rates just because I live in the Philippines? No (sorry danohuiginn!)

Figure out how much money you want to make and how many hours you want to
work. Remember that you cannot get eight billable hours out of an eight hour
day.

As a "consultant" you are running a business. Asking other people how much
your rates should be is not a business question, that is a programmers
question. You are asking like this is some sort of algorithm you can plug into
your code. You need to tweak your mindset a bit.

Edit: How to get consulting work.

Build your brand and visibility. Pick a community (get a bonus for picking one
frequented by paying clients) and establish yourself as an authority. Create
an open source project which you can point to which shows you know what you
are doing.

Network! The area in which I am has more work than there are people available
yet there is likely no shortage of people who would love to break in. The
reason for this paradox is that I only work with people in my network.

All the freelancers I know are overworked. Often any one of them need help and
I can't help them because I am overworked as well. Get to know other
developers who are freelancing and ask them if they know anyone who needs a
hand.

It's all about that recognizable and trusted brand!

~~~
fortes
"Remember that you cannot get eight billable hours out of an eight hour day."

This is an extremely important point. When I was freelancing, I was surprised
by just how much non-billable overhead time I had (at least 5-10 hours a week
when working with 3 clients). To reduce overhead, work with as few clients as
possible. But you'll run into dead time that way, since jobs don't start on a
dime.

I know a guy who has freelanced for 5 years and kept meticulous records. He
knows what he's doing, but says every year he tops out at about 60% of his
time being billable. Make sure you factor that into your rate.

It's really easy to take your rate and multiply by 40, thinking that's your
weekly salary. This is pretty much never the case.

Also, don't forget taxes.

~~~
tonyvt2005
Just curious since I haven't done freelancing yet... how do you determine what
is billable vs. non-billable? If 60% of your time is billable then what
constitutes the other 40%? I know part of it is looking for new work. What
else?

~~~
fortes
It depends on how you bill (hourly vs day vs project) -- but there are many
things that are obviously non-billable, because they are not for any client
(e.g. doing your taxes/administrative for your business, buying office
supplies, and every other little thing that isn't directly tied to the end
product you're providing to clients).

Another big time sink (that I didn't realize) is all the work that's involved
with even setting up a contract or freelance relationship. Depending on the
client, you can spend weeks waiting / working out details before the project
begins. This is why longer projects are more valuable (and can be billed at a
lower rate) -- since there's always some fixed overhead per project.

------
prakash
"How to Set Your Hourly Consulting Rate":
<http://30sleeps.com/blog/2007/09/27/set-your-hourly-rate/>

and another one from Michael Hartl, "How I can charge so much":

[http://eikonoklastes.org/articles/2007/09/26/how-i-can-
charg...](http://eikonoklastes.org/articles/2007/09/26/how-i-can-charge-so-
much)

------
mfruhling
I've done consulting on the microsoft stack and I got between $50/hr and
$75/hr on short term gigs. I was also considered on the cheap side by the
people who hired me. I think price is greatly determined by whether you're
coming from a company or you're an individual. Customers will pay a consulting
firm $150-$200/hr or more because they are also buying someone to blame if the
project goes wrong. An individual is not going to see that amount. My advice
would be to market yourself as a consulting company, even if that is just some
of your friends loosely affiliating yourselves with one another. You will get
higher rates that way. Another way to higher rates is to have a business
domain(s) that you can be considered knowledgeable in. Domain knowledge will
separate you from the pack when someone is price shopping, and that knowledge
or experience really does make you much more valuable and efficient.

~~~
wenbert
"they are also buying someone to blame if the project goes wrong" ^_^ sorry
had to say it again...

------
gruseom
_I am asking for a rough ball-park. I'm looking for a range that people are
making from "Oh, my God, they got screwed and will be eating ramen for
months." to "I can't she had the balls to ask for that rate." [...] If this is
a taboo subject.... my bad._

It's not taboo, it's a great question. Several answers already posted are
excellent, but I'll add another. In the market I work in, for independent
contractors:

"Oh, my God, they got screwed" => anything less than $40/hr

"I can't [believe?] she had the balls to ask for that rate." => $150/hr or
higher

Of course it depends, blah blah blah, but you did say ballpark.

For deciding what _you_ should ask, Jerry Weinberg has a great piece of
advice: set your rate so that you're happy either way. That is, not so low
that you're unhappy if they say yes, and not so high that you're unhappy if
they say no.

Now that I think of it, get Weinberg's _Secrets of Consulting_ and read it. It
may save you all kinds of trouble. In case you don't know him, Weinberg was
part of the very first generation of programmers, and later became known for
his work on human factors on software projects. A lot of his stuff is good,
but _Secrets of Consulting_ is a must-read, I think, for any hacker who wants
to do consulting work to pay the bills.

Good luck!

~~~
estherschindler
Absolutely agree on Secrets of Consulting. It was a major revelation to me
when I was first starting out.

------
rockstar9
Another question is: How do you even find consulting gigs?

~~~
edw519
Network, network, network, network, network! (Sorry, I cannot overemphasize
this.) _You_ are your own marketing department. All the time. No, you don't
have to be one of those Amway pests, but don't be afraid to say what you do
and to volunteer your opinion about something computer related. You're not
doing it to get business; you're doing it because that's who you are. Even if
nothing happens now, it could 6 months later. You never stop networking, no
matter how busy you are now.

A few examples:

\- Hung out with the same guy at Tuesday night Bible study for 3 years. One
day he said, "I heard you tell someone you know something about computers. My
company needs software for our factory. Do you know anything about that?"
Turned into 50K over the next 6 months.

\- Went to an industry dinner/speaker event. The stranger next to me asked
what I did. I told him. He asked if I ever did <xyz>. Before I could answer,
my partner joked, "That's how we made our first million." The stranger said,
"How'd you like to make your second million?" We talked all night and started
work 2 days later. 20K in 2 months. All from a joke.

\- A contractor friend got a great full time job. She asked me to "take over"
her maintenance accounts (3 of them). Many thousands part time over the next 3
years.

\- Had another friend who I met for lunch once a month for years. She always
talked about her job. One day, she suddenly had to move out of state for
personal reasons. I emailed her employer, telling what I did (which was
exactly what they had her doing). Turned into 4 years of work.

\- Met my aunt's next door neighbor while sitting on her porch. My aunt said,
"Eddie's into computers." He said he had a friend who owned a pawn shop with a
computer running Windows that "froze" every day at 3:00, their busiest hour.
He was going nuts. (Licking my chops), I said I could look into it. A 6 month
gig with all new cool software (not Windows).

\- Went to a Monday Night Football party. A friend of a friend who owned a
small distribution company said the bank wouldn't lend them any more money
until they computerized their inventory. After 3 months of me (for $20K), they
were able to borrow $300K. Pretty good deal for everyone.

\- A friend was offered a 6 month gig in Detroit for $60/hour. He didn't want
to move to Detroit. I took it. Got an efficiency for $400/month, drove my own
car there, and dialed in to my other clients. 6 months later, moved home. Not
a bad deal.

\- Had another friend who owned a small software house. (Didn't know it until
I knew him for over a year). He coded everything with linked lists because he
didn't know anything about databases. I converted all his software to DBMS
over a 6 month period. Again, everyone happy.

I could go on and on, but you kinda get the picture. And I haven't even
touched on the web stuff.

The demand still far outweighs the supply for good software. If you know what
you're doing (a big assumption), there's millions of people who need what you
do. So get out there and talk to them!

~~~
ovi256
>He said he had a friend who owned a pawn shop with a computer

Unethical to aid a pawn shop, especially if you are a Christian. But hey, who
am I to judge.

Edit: pawn shops are unethical from a Christian viewpoint, as they charge
interest. And the parent said he was doing Bible study. But again, who am I to
give advice on such topics as an heathen. Just downmod and show me I'm wrong.

~~~
mixmax
Seriously - ovi256 is now down to -15 in karma, and (as far as I remember in
regard to the modding system) can't even comment anymore. Just because he
thinks it's unethical to own a pawnshop. His other comments are fine. Would
you PLEASE vote the poor guy up a bit.

I don't mind burning karma doing this, I've got plenty to spare. This is just
wrong.

~~~
menloparkbum
Don't feel too bad about it. If ovi256 really can't comment, ovi257 can pick
up the usury/pawnshop debate where he left off.

------
quellhorst
I bill $125/hr for Ruby on Rails development work. If you are the Rails core
type that writes books and presents at confs you can charge $200/hr. If you
are new and just starting out you may get $50/hr.

In the software world it seems people are scared to talk $. Be upfront about
what you charge so you don't waste time talking to those unwilling to pay what
you are worth.

------
petercooper
I bill at $800 a day in the Ruby space. It's not that often though, because
I'd rather work on my own stuff than other people's!

From my experience, this is not on the high side, though perhaps slightly
above average.

~~~
bjclark
Peter Cooper (like, RubyInside Peter Cooper?) only costs $100 an hour?

Noted.

~~~
kingnothing
Unless, of course, he only works for 30 minutes a day.

~~~
petercooper
Haha, not quite, but I've done four hours at that rate before.. though the 6
hour traffic jam I got caught in on the same day didn't quite equalize it out
;-)

------
subwindow
Not to sound blunt, but you can charge whatever you feel you're worth. I've
never had a client blink when I told them what my hourly rate was. They do a
calculation in their head, but it is not "Is this too expensive?" but it is
"Do I think this guy is worth it?" Chances are if you yourself feel that
you're worth that amount, they will too.

That said, DB consultants generally make a bit more because of the fragility
and messiness of what they deal with. I've done some Oracle consulting at
$100/hr and that, I realize now, was a very low rate.

~~~
randallsquared
To provide an anecdote the other way: I do small business software and
webhosting in the southeastern US, and I have _often_ had prospective clients
seem taken aback when I mention my rates, which are nowhere near the rates
being bandied about in this thread. If you choose to sell your services to
small businesses, be prepared to fit into a reality where the client thinks
$80 an hour is a terribly high amount for a 5-10 hour job, and is prepared to
just not have the work done instead. Very little is actually required for most
small businesses; some of them are still considering upgrading the old machine
running Win98 that's been doing invoices for 10 years, and unless it breaks,
it's "good enough".

------
huherto
Do not forget to put time in the equation. A consulting job of one month has a
higher price per hour than a contract of three months. That is because a one
month contract solves your money problem for one month, but then you may spend
another month finding your next job.

------
andyjenn
As a boring freelance Oracle consultant, I can bill 450-500 GBP/day...
interesting LAMP and Web based roles seem to be around half that.

~~~
sabat
Considering that's > $1000 per day (probably closer to $1500 -- haven't dared
to check the exchange rate these days), and $500/day for a LAMP project ...
hey, that's not bad.

~~~
muerdeme
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity>

------
ssharp
You should consider reading some of Alan Weiss' consulting books. He really
advocates project/value based fees instead of time based fees.

Million Dollar Consulting:
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FMillion-
Dollar-Consulting-Professionals-
Practice%2Fdp%2F007138703X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1210081314%26sr%3D8-1&tag=idol0f-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

Getting Started In Consulting:
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FGetting-
Started-Consulting-Second-
Weiss%2Fdp%2F0471479691%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1210081314%26sr%3D8-2&tag=idol0f-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

Value Based Fees:
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FValue-
Based-Fees-Chargeand-Ultimate-
Consultant%2Fdp%2F0787955116%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1210081314%26sr%3D8-3&tag=idol0f-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

I'd recommend these three books and check out his website @
<http://www.summitconsulting.com/>

~~~
mechanical_fish
_He really advocates project/value based fees instead of time based fees._

This guy is not a software consultant. So beware, beware, beware this advice,
because that little detail matters _a lot_.

It's easy to charge project based fees when you (a) are an expert negotiator
and speaker and (b) your project is not built of either hardware or software.
If the deliverable is a paper report, a Powerpoint presentation, or a new org
chart, it is relatively easy to work around or gloss over any problems that
arise and still deliver on time and make the client happy. You have a ton of
flexibility. Unless you're drafting legal documents, editing the English or
changing the color of a graphic has no wide-ranging ramifications.

If the deliverable is a working machine, you're up against the laws of nature:

 _For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for nature cannot be fooled. -- Richard Feynman_

You'll end up running three weeks late because the client makes a "trivial"
reinterpretation of the spec at the last minute, and the old library won't
meet the new spec, but the new version of the library will, so you upgrade,
but the new version has a different API, and one of those new API calls has a
bug...

[UPDATE: This link, recommended elsewhere on the page, has a succinct summary
of the argument in favor of time-based fees:
<http://30sleeps.com/blog/2007/09/27/set-your-hourly-rate/> ]

~~~
bigtoga
I've used both time-based and value-based and my answer is an unequivocal "It
depends on the project." I'm a pretty creative person and I hate to box myself
in by saying "Never do it this way", especially when some very smart people
have advocated both/multiple ways. I suggest taking a risk-analysis approach
towards estimating as well whereupon you figure out what the mean time to
complete, best, and worst times. This can give you confidence (after you've
done it awhile) in your guesstimates and that confidence allows you to move
more into the value-based pricing. I definitely wouldn't suggest value-based
pricing for someone who had not had loads of time-based pricing experience.

~~~
ssharp
I agree 100% with your last sentence.

------
schlegelrock
For engineering skills and in the bay area start at $65 an hour then add $5
per year of solid work experience. Add 20% if the company is public.

------
estherschindler
Incidentally, while the earlier link to the "what do I charge" is a good one,
most of the computer consultants' discussion has moved to
<http://openitforum.yuku.com/> \-- nice folks, too.

You can also find more data at Janet Ruhl's realrates.com. It is a database
where people share how much they're getting for what kind of work. The home
page is no longer updated but the database is live with people adding info.

------
suboptimal
You are El Gringo,

Regarding the message in your edit, thanks for your post--this is (mostly) a
helpful discussion. Just search for the dollar signs (norcalgrrl had a good
response, as did a few others).

And good luck with your freelance career!

------
spolsky
there's a whole obsessive-compulsive website called realrates.com on exactly
this subject.

~~~
create_account
That site is garbage.

~~~
estherschindler
Why?

Not disagreeing per se... I'm interested in your reasons.

------
danohuiginn
"the pay rate varies by geography, industry, computer language and
technology."

Mainly, it varies depending on whether you're any good (and whether people
know that you're good). If you're asking "how high should I set my rate" -
unfortunately, I don't think there's an easy answer to that, without knowing
you.

~~~
iamelgringo
I realize that a lot of this is going to be personal network specific--who do
I know that's willing to get me a contract gig. I also realize that it's going
to be talent specific.

But, I'm mostly looking for ballpark figures, I'm not really interested in
rate setting. I'm career changing, and I should be graduating from school
after this summer. I'm mostly trying to get a feel for rates.

------
xirium
> I'd also love to hear what DB consultants are making as well.

I used to be consulted out at 2000 Euros per day.

------
menloparkbum
going rates are whatever you can get. I've seen from $20/hr to $200/hr. The
high rates are usually for something horrible like "Oracle Financials." Most
LAMP/Django/RoR independents charge somewhere between 50-100.

------
danw
Pick how much you wish to earn, and set your rate based on that. Then see if
you can sell at that rate and adjust accordingly

