
A transportation engineer has a simple solution to potholes: pave better roads - I-M-S
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/03/09/pothole-problem-can-be-solved-carleton-professor-says.html
======
donatj
Reminds me of this section[2] from "How Engineers Create the World" by Bill
Hammack - an interesting but perhaps scattered read.

    
    
      Well, a pothole is not just a technological thing, 
      it's also a political entity. Usually we think of 
      European nations as steeped in governmental regulation, 
      and the United States as a free market, but actually
      the opposite occurs in building roads. In the United States 
      the government sets specifications and asks contractors 
      to meet them. Once done with the road they have no 
      more responsibility.
      
      Contrast this to France where the contractors must come 
      up with their own specifications and guarantee their work. 
      This means that if a pothole developers the contractor has 
      to fix it. But in the united States, once the job is done, 
      as long as it has met specifications, the contractor is no 
      longer liable.
    

1\. [https://www.amazon.com/How-engineers-create-world-
commentari...](https://www.amazon.com/How-engineers-create-world-
commentaries/dp/0983966109)

2\. [https://i.redd.it/uthzdyul53fy.png](https://i.redd.it/uthzdyul53fy.png)

~~~
colanderman
Reformatted for those on mobile:

> Well, a pothole is not just a technological thing, it's also a political
> entity. Usually we think of European nations as steeped in governmental
> regulation, and the United States as a free market, but actually the
> opposite occurs in building roads. In the United States the government sets
> specifications and asks contractors to meet them. Once done with the road
> they have no more responsibility.

> Contrast this to France where the contractors must come up with their own
> specifications and guarantee their work. This means that if a pothole
> developers the contractor has to fix it. But in the united States, once the
> job is done, as long as it has met specifications, the contractor is no
> longer liable.

(Please don't use code blocks for quotations.)

~~~
donatj
I like that you copied it typos and all ;)

I retyped it from the screenshot on my way out the door at work and now note a
number of mistakes.

------
brianbreslin
This strikes me as a classic separation of buyer interests from vendor
interests leading to misaligned incentives. The contractors have no incentive
to update their equipment. In fact if this is scientifically proven to be a
major solution they should want to avoid this. If the province could
incentivize the vendor to pay them more for every year there is no pothole and
punish them for every pothole they would totally adopt this tech.

~~~
pg_bot
I would argue that lack of adoption is likely a discovery and design problem
rather than an economic one. In a free market other people can choose to enter
into the contracting business. If I have a leg up on my competition (paving
better roads for the same cost) I will eventually out compete people who fail
to adapt to the new method. This doesn't happen immediately, but you can't
fool everyone forever if there truly is a better way of operating.

This technology likely has not been adopted due to difficulty and expense of
manufacturing a robust machine and lack of marketing. How many people even
knew this solution existed? What is the measurable benefit to paving roads
this way? How much does the machine cost vs traditional roller method? All of
this work is expensive and there isn't a guarantee of success. While the
hypothesis seems reasonable you have to do all the math/science to figure out
if this truly is cost effective. Ideas are great, execution is hard.

~~~
aldoushuxley001
Actually in this case the answer is fairly simple: it's corruption. Most
people living in Ontario or Quebec know that the construction industry there
is dominated by the mob. You gotta be real careful not to step over the wrong
people's feet, especially if you're going after public contracts.

So, suffice to say, there is little real competition because most new
competitors get literally threatened for their lives if they try to compete.

~~~
3pt14159
I don’t know about the rest of Ontario, but this is 100% not true for the
Toronto area. I used to be in the industry and I saw something shady only once
and it was very, very minor. My brother is also a higher up at Ellis Don and
he complains about concrete trucks getting stuck in traffic, not mob grift.

~~~
horsecaptin
I know current senior engineers that see plenty of corruption and shady
practice, including on road construction on a regular basis in Ontario, and
yes, the Toronto area.

Construction companies routinely don't build each layer of road up to code.
Thus potholes appear much sooner than they should.

~~~
3pt14159
Corruption is bribing the construction inspector to look the other way—it’s
not laziness or poor workmanship. I’ve both worked for pavers and for the TTC
as a construction inspector. Never once saw real corruption or a bribe over 5
years. I bent the rules a tiny bit once when a concrete placement was going
sideways in the interests of expediency (but followed up with additional
testing to make sure everything was ok) and the CEO got me a 26 of Crown Royal
as a thanks. That’s the full extent of the shadiness that I’d witnessed.

~~~
horsecaptin
Since we're talking roads - layers of gravel, and asphalt - it is very easy to
save a a lot of money by shaving off some thickness at any level. Construction
companies the world over do this and a mm here and there are usually
tolerated. Toronto area construction companies skim so much that the roads
cave in.

If it isn't corruption, then how are they getting away with it?

------
zentiggr
> Nichols said the AMIR “has great potential” to extend the life of roads, and
> “save significant taxpayer dollars.” In 2016, an MTO analysis found that the
> province would save $50 million annually if roads on the MTOs highways could
> last even one year longer.

And there you go... goes against the contractors' interests to use more
efficient means, so this compactor's use will have to be mandated by city
governments who want to avoid the political backlash of public awareness of
wasted budget. Or in other words, good luck with that grassroots campaign.

~~~
drspacemonkey
I wonder if that could be resolved by the government offering an annual bonus
for every road that requires no pothole maintenance. If the bonus were bigger
than the profit they'd make from filling in the pothole, it would be free
money for the contractor + a savings for the government because they don't
have to pay to fix something that isn't broken.

Mostly, I wonder how different the world would be if there was an incentive to
build things that don't break.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
There are plenty of incentives to build stuff that's resilient; usually
financial profit is opposed to it, which I presume was your point.

------
maxerickson
The article calls the invention a paver but it is a compactor (what everyone
calls a steamroller).

This article is a little more sciency:

[https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn/news/Technology/2017...](https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn/news/Technology/2017/3/AMIR-
compactor-to-disrupt-asphalt-paving-by-keeping-roads-grounded-1022176W)

The paver is the machine that catches the asphalt out of the dump truck and
spreads it across the road.

~~~
FussyZeus
Took me awhile to figure this out as well, this isn't even a paver, it's a
better roller.

IMHO that just makes the difference it produces even more impressive, I
thought this was a totally different paving machine.

------
axaxs
I've always read that road damage was caused by heavy vehicles(semis) which
stress fracture the roads, which in turn fill with water, freeze, expand,
rinse and repeat. This article seems to imply it's caused by the road design
itself, though. Wonder which is true (or both)?

~~~
throwawaylalala
We have potholes in Florida. No freezing.

~~~
cmontella
But we don't really have potholes in CA, at least not the quantity and quality
that I experienced living in PA. It's a minefield there right now, so I would
imagine freezing is part of the problem, or at least exacerbates it.

~~~
tigershark
What? I never seen worse road in my life than in LA..

~~~
wlll
Is that because in LA you have time to scrutinise in depth a great deal of
tarmac? ;)

------
shmageggy
I've always wondered why we still have such crappy roads, given that roads are
possibly the oldest technology there is, and every civilized place on earth
has paved roads, thus making an enormous potential market for a better
solution. Either:

1) Most people don't care as much as I do about the bone-jarring, car-ruining
potholes that are ubiquitous in every cold climate on earth, and thus aren't
willing to spend their tax money on fixing it, or

2) Engineering a better road is simply too hard of an engineering problem, so
what we have is the best we can do at the moment. Or equivalently, any better
roads we do know how to make are too cost-prohibitive.

Maybe I'll forward this article to my local representatives.

~~~
DubiousPusher
> 2) Engineering a better road is simply too hard of an engineering problem,
> so what we have is the best we can do at the moment. Or equivalently, any
> better roads we do know how to make are too cost-prohibitive.

This is essentially the case. Asphalt roads as they exist today are basically
a really good compromise of all the variables you care about in a road. They
are farely durable, are easy to repair, can be laid across various terrains,
give good traction, offer a continuous driving surface, shed water farely
well, and are realtively cheap. For example cement roads last longer but are
not continuous. They have those breaches every few yards that make that
obnoxious bump... bump... bump experience. They also have inferior grip.

It's basically the same reason you probably have vinyl windows. Everyone kind
of knows they aren't ideal but they are a good compromise of strength, cost
and energy efficiency.

You can easily beat asphalt in any one given area but it's hard to do as well
across all areas.

~~~
EvilTerran
> relatively cheap

This is a surprisingly big factor: we get bitumen from refining crude oil
whether we want it or not, and the endless demand for the lighter fractions of
crude means we're gonna do a lot of refining regardless, so the market had to
find _something_ to do with the left-over sludge.

Also pushing the price down, asphalt is almost completely recyclable: when a
worn-out road surface finally gets dug up & replaced, the old asphalt doesn't
go to landfill - it can be crushed up, melted down, and re-layed somewhere
else. So much of the demand doesn't actually much reduce the amount on the
market.

Compare to, say, concrete: we don't make concrete unless we want concrete,
it's not a byproduct of an otherwise-useful process; and once you dig it up,
you can only re-use it as ugly gravel, you can't turn it back into fresh
concrete.

~~~
nugi
I wonder what shifts in road construction we will see as petro offcast becomes
less common, and go up in price? Lubricants, plastics, etc all stand to see a
hike.

------
sowbug
If self-driving cars start to catch on, it seems that the standards for roads
must improve. There are some roads in my area that could be an excellent
Turing test. If you follow what the lane markers are telling you to do, you
die and are probably a robot. If you ignore the markers and survive, you are
probably human.

I'd rather increase road standards and accelerate the evolution of self-
driving technology than require the development of technology that is capable
of driving on today's terrible roads. I know this is not a binary choice --
realistically, both would happen. But I don't think anyone's even talking
about better roads for self-driving cars. If even just major roads had to be
maintained to a minimally machine-readable standard, it would be a good thing
for drivers -- whether human or machine.

------
CoffeeDregs
I was literally wondering about this question the other day. It's 2018; we can
make CPUs with 12nm features but we can't make a long lasting asphalt?

Fascinating:

    
    
        Nichols said the AMIR “has great potential” to extend 
        the life of roads, and “save significant taxpayer 
        dollars.” In 2016, an MTO analysis found that the 
        province would save $50 million annually if roads on the 
        MTOs highways could last even one year longer.
    
        "The MTO is not planning on buying or specifying the use 
        of AMIR asphalt rollers..."
    

Might be of interest, too: [http://www.dykespaving.com/blog/why-use-asphalt-
instead-of-c...](http://www.dykespaving.com/blog/why-use-asphalt-instead-of-
concrete/)

~~~
JustSomeNobody
> Asphalt resurfacing simply involves applying new asphalt over the old.
> Damaged areas are filled with fresh asphalt, and a steamroller goes over the
> entire surface to yield smooth, even pavement.

Florida native, I can tell you this is very temporary. Big chunks will
eventually come up and you can see the previous pavement underneath. I'm
assuming that between the heat here and the cracks mentioned in the original
article that let water seep between the layers, this is just a bad way to fix
a road.

~~~
allannienhuis
Up here in Canada, I've universlly seen them grind up the very top layer of
the old asphalt before laying down the next layer. I presume that's to improve
adhesion. Can't say I've seen many places where obvious delamination of the
layers happens. Are they not taking that step in florida?

------
jrs235
In the North, it seems the interstates and highways tend to get cracks across
the entire road at relatively even intervals. I suspect they form where they
lay down the rebar supports/holders. It makes sense to me that
cracks/"potholes" would form there as it seems that at that point compression
of some sort would occur from the weight of vehicles causing the asphalt/road
to crumble. While more work to initially build and lay... What would happen if
they laid the supports and rebar down like elongated tile or vinyl siding on a
house... Never having adjacent pieces ending near each other?

~~~
allannienhuis
I've never seen rebar on asphalt highways. Do they top the concrete highways
with asphalt where you are?

~~~
jrs235
Yeah you're correct. They are concrete.

------
hugodahl
I've often wondered, especially as I cringe, clench and brace as I encounter
another pothole (or chasm) why this is still an issue? Particularly since
there are very well known and enduring roadways capable of handling much
heavier loads and stresses - specifically airport runways and taxiways.

I can't recall ever seeing a runway shutdown abd inoperable for months on end
due to "road work". I can think of a few reasons around why this isn't a
thing, most of them being human factor (no money on building something I won't
get paid again to fix later). The only "true" reason I can fathom is that
runways are much more expensive to build. Order(s?) of magnitude more
expensive.

Am I way off the mark, or is there something I've clearly missed?

~~~
tmm
> I can't recall ever seeing a runway shutdown abd inoperable for months on
> end due to "road work".

I’m guessing you haven’t flown through Phoenix recently? They have had a
runway closed for repaving (might be reopened now) since early January.

Runways are generally concrete rather than asphalt and there are plenty of
concrete highways. It tends to be a louder and less comfortable surface to
drive on and when repairs do need to happen, they’re more disruptive than a
simple asphalt resurfacing. I’m sure there are other reasons to prefer
asphalt, but I’m not a civil engineer.

------
webnrrd2k
I'm a bit suspicious of the claim that metal rollers cause substantial
cracking, or at least enough cracking that this machine with special rubber
belts would fix it. I have no experience with this, but it seems that hot
asphalt is gooey and would flow enough to seal any cracks that are created
during construction. Second, usually a top coat or slurry coat is poured on
top of asphalt to seal the surface. I'd think that would seal up any cracks
far more effectlvly than this new roller machine.

------
mc32
I'm curious how this machine addresses seams in the roadway. Obviously this
machine isn't 4-lanes wide, so how to they prevent potholes from forming
between seams (often seams are aligned with lanes but they still end up
allowing cracks to form.

------
abacate
It does not solve anything, just pushes the problem a little further.

~~~
stevenwoo
I recall there was an article on the front page of hacker news not long ago
that argued that it was a better use of public money to _not_ pave every road
and to let some roads just be dirt roads because the maintenance cost was not
justified by the amount of road traffic. This was not the article but similar
to it: [https://www.wired.com/2016/07/cash-strapped-towns-un-
paving-...](https://www.wired.com/2016/07/cash-strapped-towns-un-paving-roads-
cant-afford-fix/)

~~~
detaro
That's how it seems to work with smaller roads in northern Sweden. They have a
surface which is kind of compacted sand/gravel, which isn't all that robust
long-term but can't really crack and is very easy to fix: a specialized
machine drives over it and basically breaks up the top layer, re-applies it
and smoothly and compacts everything again, and the road is good again.

------
phkahler
Wait, you mean they put asphalt on the roads!?!?! More and more I see this
step skipped and concrete cross-cut every 50 feet or whatever. Guess where the
potholes form...

------
spodek
> _“It’s not my fault it’s not being used, I’ve done everything a researcher
> can do,” El Halim said._

What's wrong with much of traditional education summed up in one sentence.

~~~
gitgreen
Researcher != Educator. There are countless researchers in colleges and
universities around the world producing things(useful or otherwise) that don't
teach a single class and only mentor grad students because they have to.

And as somebody else mentioned he can't force others to use his technology.

------
nategri
Haha I _really_ expected the "pothole problem" to be some kind of mathematical
conjecture.

Nope, literal holes in literal roads.

~~~
Yetanfou
Same here, especially with the original title of "a 30 year old machine that
solves the pothole problem", gave me visions of a Commodore 64 doing something
which could also have been done on a musical gift card nowadays (but isn't).
Pity, really, physical pothole problems are so simple to solve...

