
Executive order expected to suspend H-1B, other visas until end of year - augustocallejas
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/20/881245867/trump-expected-to-suspend-h-1b-other-visas-until-end-of-year
======
codelord
Disclaimer: I'm an immigrant.

There are companies like Cognizant/InfoSys/Tata/... whose business model is
based on abusing the H1B system, and that's obviously wrong and I'm quite
surprised they get away with it. I'm not defending that.

To those who broadly argue against skilled visas, consider this: Most H1B
immigrants are between 20-30 age range. The prime age to join the workforce.
Think how much investment you have to make on a child's health care and
education to make them into a highly skilled workforce. It would at least cost
you 1$M and probably much more. Now all these immigrants have learned your
language, passed job interviews, and are competing to come to your country to
give you 1$M and help your economy. Why would you not want that? People seem
to think that number of jobs is a limited constant and if you stop immigrants
that will have a positive effect on the economy. But in reality companies can
simply just scale. If they have more workforce they can do more. Things get
done faster and they just make more profit. Stopping immigration obviously
would dent the economical growth. Never mind that many top tech companies in
the US were founded by immigrants or children of immigrants.

To those who say we must invest in local workforce, I wonder why would you
have to stop immigration to start investing in local workforce? As if allowing
immigration would reduce the amount of money for investment, while in reality
immigrants pay taxes. I personally have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars
in taxes so far. I'd be happy if this money was used to educate the American
workforce. However I know that it doesn't. I would like to see that change.

~~~
hintymad
I know this will probably be flagged or voted down, but at least please
understand that I truly want to see people in the US get better and more
equal. Here it goes: if the US wants to invest in local talent, the US had
better invest heavily in education. And I'm not talking about an-iPad-per-kid
kind of investment, but investment to hire great teachers, lots of them, to
public schools to the point that tutoring schools become a joke, investment to
set up a system that can fire bad teachers -- the kinds who ask students in
grade 9 physics class "which is heavier, pound or kilogram". Investment to
ensure that even the poorest area can have public schools that are at least as
good as KIPP. Investment to really keep students in their discomfort zone so
they can learn every day. Investment that builds a system that really pushes
the limit of every student instead of being complacent with the craps like
"Kids can discover most math by themselves" or "left no kids behind" or
"challenging math is systemic bias against the poor" or "math is racism" \--
maybe they are, but then they are because our governments offer such low-
quality education that family with means can get ahead by going to soul-
sucking tutoring schools.

Education is the key to local talent, and is the key to equality. Yet, what
has the US done to make our education better?

~~~
john_moscow
This comment is the reason why we need to rethink our current culture of
censorship and social media outrage.

It explains a non-trivial logical connection, showing how something that could
look unpopular from the surface, would pay off in the long run. Except you
cannot make comments like this in public anymore. Because all it takes is an
angry mob leader shouting "%USERNAME% is %CLICHE%ist" and that's it. Your
employer fires you, your friends abandon you, you are socially bankrupt in an
instant.

There are many bright people our there with great perspectives to share.
Except they have to maintain radio silence, because they are not willing to
take that risk. So the only voices to be heard are the most extreme ones that
have nothing to lose.

I sincerely hope we can overcome this and get people to discuss problems and
work _together_ on solving them before our civilization sinks into medieval
barbarism.

~~~
comex
I don't see anything in the parent comment that's even remotely controversial.
Almost everyone across the political spectrum agrees that we should spend more
on education, at least in the abstract. There's plenty of disagreement on the
details, but I don't see anything in the comment that stakes out a strong
position on any of the major issues. Perhaps I'm missing something.

~~~
core-questions
Here's the problem: you cannot guarantee equal outcomes across intersectional
groups. Period. Not going to happen. A hundred years of psychometric research
backs this up; there are simply differences that cannot be papered over by
adjusting metrics and applying equalizing coefficients.

A highly effective education system that really gets the best out of every
person involved is also going to be selective, it is going to group people
into different classes based on ability, and the resulting output is going to
be highly offensive to the militant people who right now are literally doing
their best to take over American cities.

So no, we can't fix this problem. We can spend more on it, but ultimately all
of that money is just IOUs against a decaying system that demands everyone be
equal, even if that lowest common denominator means all but the super-rich end
up living in a favela within a few decades.

~~~
comex
In short, you're claiming that some races or genders are inherently more
capable than others, independent of all 'nurture' factors? If so, you're
wrong, but feel free to clarify what "hundred years of psychometric research"
you're referring to.

~~~
candiodari
No we are claiming that we need $4309582309239 extra spending on the
Governor's wife's tennis partners' baker's niece's program to totally-not-put-
all-those-dollars-back-into-the-governors-electoral-budget.

That will fix it.

What I mean to say is that 99.9% of those programs are just abusing the system
(even if 10% of them started out with honest intentions).

------
AndrewKemendo
All data indicate there is no shortage of US Citizens that could fill STEM
positions and that H1-B holders on average make well below market rate.
Outright ban is the wrong tool and I can't imagine that this is a reasoned
policy response to a well understood abuse of wage-arbitrage. The right answer
would be to mandate comparable wages for H1-B immigrants as for median
employee with the same experience/tenure etc...

"A comprehensive literature review, in conjunction with employment statistics,
newspaper articles, and our own interviews with company recruiters, reveals a
significant heterogeneity in the STEM labor market: the academic sector is
generally oversupplied, while the government sector and private industry have
shortages in specific areas."

[https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/article/stem-crisis-or-
ste...](https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/article/stem-crisis-or-stem-surplus-
yes-and-yes.htm)

"Our examination shows that the STEM shortage in the United States is largely
overblown. Guestworker programs are in need of reform, but any changes should
make sure that guestworkers are not lower-paid substitutes for domestic
workers."

[https://bloustein.rutgers.edu/new-analysis-finds-no-
shortage...](https://bloustein.rutgers.edu/new-analysis-finds-no-shortage-of-
stem-workers-in-the-united-states/)

"Sixty percent of H-1B positions certified by the U.S. Department of Labor are
assigned wage levels well below the local median wage for the occupation."

[https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-
wa...](https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/)

~~~
Thorentis
If there is no shortage of US citizens that can fill STEM roles, then the H1-B
program has no reason to take in STEM workers. Its purpose is to fill skill
shortages. There is clearly no skills shortage, therefore the ban, while
perhaps overkill, is not unjustified. Companies simply use it to get cheap
labor.

~~~
fredfoobar
When was the last time you hired to grow a team in SV?

------
BolexNOLA
This has gotten very old very fast (beyond the obvious cruelty). I have
several friends who keep watching their colleagues just have to up and leave
over this and it’s causing a ton of issues for businesses that employ folks on
work visas in general. It’s just disruptive to be disruptive/feed the base.

~~~
awillen
It's just silly... even if you're a nationalist, isn't the prospect of
bringing over talented people from foreign countries to work in America and
help our companies profit plus deprive their home countries of their skills a
really, really good thing?

~~~
dx87
If H-1B visas were being used how they were intended, they would be a good
thing, but we often see them used as a way to get cheap labor, or even
directly replace American workers. The company I work at has H-1B junior web
developers, hardly "very niche, hard to fill" positions that they can't find
any qualified Americans to do.

~~~
jusonchan81
I guess this is indeed an issue. I’m a manager and I am trying to hire. 100%
I’d rather find a person who can start in a couple of weeks than several
months for a candidate who needs immigration. But there are rarely any local
applicants and even when there are they don’t make in the interview. We pay in
excess of 300k for all roles so it’s not like we are trying to find cheap
talent.

~~~
P_I_Staker
Something isn't adding up here, even in areas with high COL people are
clamoring for jobs like that. I'm not saying it never happens, something just
doesn't sound right.

Also, the vast majority of people on H1-Bs that I've worked with are quite...
average. It's nothing against them, but I doubt they were blowing people away
in the interview. Many of them do have better attitudes, though.

That's not to say that there aren't exceptional examples, or a given candidate
was bad, but we absolutely could of hired some kid from university, or a mid-
senior level from a US company. They just tend to have more demands.

It's not exactly a secret the main reason for the program, is to lower wages
here. ie. keep the wages of nationals in check. Of course, you also get access
to a better deal on labor, and people that want the job very badly.

I could be off base, but many of the people I've worked with on H1-Bs simply
cause less political problems. It's not necessarily a cultural thing, as I'm
including many different countries. They have the threat of deportation
hanging over their head.

~~~
triceratops
Off-topic, but just a tip. "could of" is never correct (nor is "would of" or
"should of").

~~~
zo1
Or could-have, which I think is more applicable in the sentence you're
correcting. Or am I missing some obscure grammar rule?

~~~
triceratops
No you aren't missing anything. "could of" (and its cousins "would of" and
"should of") are common mistakes made (interestingly) almost exclusively by
English-as-first-language speakers (my observation, so don't ask for citations
I don't have any), since they sound similar to "could have", "would have" and
"should have" particularly in "native" English accents (I'm thinking North
American and UK especially).

I've never seen "could-have" (hyphenated) though. I don't think that's right
either.

~~~
hooloovoo_zoo
It's just misspelled. 'Could've' is a standard contraction.

~~~
triceratops
"Could-have" is misspelled? Or "could of"?

~~~
jpmoral
It's "could have" or "could've".

~~~
triceratops
Right

------
x87678r
Reminder of the top H1B employers. Its not about high tech workers in SV.

[https://www.h1bdata.org/employers](https://www.h1bdata.org/employers)

Employer Name Employees Hired (All Years) Infosys Limited 182,945 Tata
Consultancy Services Limited 102,722 Deloitte Consulting Llp 65,976 Wipro
Limited 63,354 Accenture Llp 51,360 Ibm India Private Limited 47,839 Capgemini
America Inc 40,954 Microsoft Corporation 40,828 Ernst Young Us Llp 38,631
Cognizant Technology Solutions Us Corp 34,138

~~~
progers7
This is for all years, but the numbers for 2019 seem to indicate SV will be
affected: [https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-
Sponsor.asp...](https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx)
Google is #8. Amazon, Facebook, Apple are in the top 20. I don't know how
accurate this list is, but I am worried for my colleagues.

~~~
x87678r
Actually that site is interesting, if you add up the Bay Area it would be the
#1 region. [https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-
Category.as...](https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-
Category.aspx?T=WC)

------
retortio
H1-B was intended for highly skilled workers that the US had a real shortage
of. But now it's just being abused to bring in captive workers that are
willing to accept lower wages and worse working conditions than otherwise
while crowding out US workers.

What if, instead of bowing to corporate greed which cares not a bit for our
country or our people, we actually invested in our own population and trained
them to do the jobs H1-B workers currently do.

Scaling back H1-B in this way is the common sense approach. And it benefits
other countries too by reducing brain drain.

It's a win-win.

~~~
samfisher83
You can look at the data, SV companies aren't paying H1B people low wages.
Unless you think 200-300k is low wages.

~~~
noobermin
Is this true? The argument I've seen is that H1B's are liked by SV because
they can be paid less.

~~~
lukeschlather
All H1B salaries are public: [https://h1bdata.info/](https://h1bdata.info/)

It's possible (maybe even likely) that title deflation is happening, but based
on my experience the salaries are definitely in line with the pay ranges for
each job title (I worked at Amazon for 3 and a half years, so I have some
first and second hand information on pay.)

If nothing else it's a great resource to see the unfiltered payscale at SV
companies.

~~~
noobermin
Thanks for the data. I see comments across threads on HN that say that H1-B
hires are common. What is the incentive to hire them then? Are professionals
in the US really that ill-equipped? I guess there is a bit of cognitive
dissonance with FAANG complaining about no qualified workers but then FAANG
only hired people who went to Stanford or Harvard and such.

~~~
umanwizard
I worked at two FAANG companies and my degree is from the University of
Arizona. I only met a few people there whose degrees were from elite schools.
Where do you get the impression that they only hire people from Stanford and
Harvard?

------
addicted
I’m curious. HN has largely agreed that the current pandemic showed that
remote work is absolutely doable. At the same time, people are claiming that
the H1B visa, which allows immigrants to work in the US at largely American
salaries, are taking away American jobs.

So the stated solution is to do away with the visa and send those people back
to their home countries.

So why does anyone believe that when those people go back to their home
countries, their employers would choose to hire someone else instead of
keeping the same people hired at a fraction of the cost?

I mean, people seem to think that companies would be unhappy about paying
someone 75k/yr who was costing them over 200k/yr (salary + payroll taxes, etc)
in the US.

It makes absolutely no sense that the job would go to an American. The
likelihood is that the job would remain with the same person but now they
would pay taxes and spend dollars in their home countries at a fraction of the
cost.

~~~
downerending
Flipping that around, if a company can hire someone for less in a foreign
country and get the same result, why bother going through the H1B process? Why
the drama? Just do it.

~~~
grad_ml
No one knew about pandemic. No one knew we all can work remote. It's a mix day
for folks who are cheering up ban. It proves work can be done be remotely. But
how remote we be, is yet to be determined.

------
vishakh82
So many people here are celebrating this order due to its supposed abstract
benefits but are somehow unaware of the its cruelty. So many visa holders in
this country will be unable to leave and enter the country for the foreseeable
future. If they have sick parents abroad they will not be able to visit them
or, in the most tragic circumstances, say goodbye in person. It won't matter
whether someone is a world-class researcher with extremely niche skills or
database administrator using commodity technology. They will live in anxiety,
fear and uncertainty. One wonders how many proponents of these measures would
be willing to uproot their lives and leave the place they call home at a
moment's notice. Life is about get a lot worse for hundreds of thousands of
hard-working, highly-educated immigrants and there are comparatively few who
will shed a tear for them.

~~~
koolba
> So many people here are celebrating this order due to its supposed abstract
> benefits but are somehow unaware of the its cruelty.

To be blunt, a nation's citizens and permanent residents' rights to economic
prosperity outweigh any temporary worker's right to continued employment. Yes
it may be viewed as cruel in the individual case, but the point of these visas
are not to provide a vehicle for those workers to come live in the USA.
They're meant to fill a need for companies that cannot find qualified workers.

In a country facing a staggering unemployment rate, continued job losses, and
possible long term recession, it'd be malfeasance on the part of any public
official to magnify the problem by allowing more workers to enter and compete
against its own permanent residents.

It's not pretty. It's reality.

~~~
michaelmrose
I think this is called the single lump of labor fallacy where there is a fixed
number of jobs to compete for and by allowing immigrants to come in and take
some of them the citizens are collectively poorer for it.

In actuality additional workers demand lots of things themselves that create
net jobs. If more people within the carrying capacity of the
environment/structures decreased economic prosperity every country in the
world would be looking to shrink their birthrate as much as possible so that
the decreasing population could have an increasingly large share of the fixed
prosperity. We know of course that the reverse is true.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Counterpoint - [in Western countries] those who have any chance to promote
population restriction are "the 1%" and don't care provided the population can
be controlled enough to keep working for them.

We've had a massive energy boom in the C20th, and grown fat from it, and now
realise that's not sustainable for the planet. We can't continue that growth.

Robotisation will continue the current trend of increasing the wealth gap. And
we don't have the energy or resources to just buy our way out of it by making
more and more junk to sell (as per C20th).

Yes more immigration, or more pay for immigrants, increases demand from them
for "middle class" luxuries (and reduces the ability of the native population
in general to pay; but doesn't reduce the desire, and debt fills that gap),
but we need to take the limitations of the planet in to account and realise
resources aren't as infinite as they seemed - that means it has to be treated
as zero sum, and indeed with restrictions on energy/resources that debt won't
be there to cover things.

On top of this the ability for the Western nations to control others, and live
better off their labour, seems to be finally ending.

IMO if we in the West want to maintain our current standards of living we'll
need to entirely curtail population growth. Redistribution is going to hit
hard, except for the robot owners who will get richer.

Regular Westerners (the 99%), to my view, will have a taste of living in a
World where others have the wealth, and we don't have resources (skilled
labour in particular) to bargain with - the elite won't need most of us. Heavy
immigration can be a foretaste of that. Skilled immigrants allow the elite to
bypass negotiation with their own populations (that might lead to
democratisation of roboticisation benefits) whilst simultaneously leaving home
countries devoid of skills and ripe for exploitation, not by nations but by
the Capitalists.

/rant

~~~
michaelmrose
>the elite won't need most of us

Whereas we don't need ANY of them and can vote away their wealth and their
power. If needed we could lop off their heads but we won't need to as its far
easier and more defensible to lop off their wealth.

------
belltaco
This is great news for Canada. Once the Covid situation resolves, if Trudeau
doesn't give a lot of incentives for tech companies to build offices there
Canada will miss out on a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

Canada has already been benefiting from the recent restrictions on work visas
and rejecting visas for no reason, for example by saying a forensic
pathologist isn't a specialty occupation.

[https://www.npr.org/2020/01/27/799402801/canada-wins-u-s-
los...](https://www.npr.org/2020/01/27/799402801/canada-wins-u-s-loses-in-
global-fight-for-high-tech-workers)

[https://insights.dice.com/2020/02/11/canada-continues-
benefi...](https://insights.dice.com/2020/02/11/canada-continues-benefit-u-
s-h-1b-confusion/)

~~~
samfisher83
People in Canada aren't making US salaries. Most people want to go to the US
for the money.

~~~
belltaco
That makes Canada even more attractive to tech companies because they can save
money. Canadian salaries and living standards are still better than many other
countries'.

~~~
ScalaFan
Tech labor has historically cheaper than in the US. It would have been nice to
see more Canadian tech success stories at 1/10 the number that have occurred
in SV alone. There must be some other variables that explain the difference.

------
tinyhouse
Not clear from the article what this means. Would it impact existing visa
holders already in the US? What about those who got an H-1B in this year's
lottery? Is their visa canceled or postponed to a later date not known yet?
(normally for a given year October is the earliest people can start working on
H-1B)

~~~
bradleyjg
It hasn’t been issued yet, so no way to know for sure but the rumor is that no
one will be able to enter (including re-enter) if they fall under the
executive order but those in the country in status will not be immediately
impacted.

~~~
tinyhouse
My educated guess is that the majority of this year's H-1B are already in the
US. I wonder what it would mean for them.

~~~
jpollock
This year's H1-Bs don't start until October 1st, and they can't enter the US
"early".

[https://redbus2us.com/h1b-visa-petition-filing-deadline-
is-i...](https://redbus2us.com/h1b-visa-petition-filing-deadline-is-it-
april-1st-october-1st-uscis-fiscal-
year/#:~:text=If%20you%20applied%20for%20H1B,and%20ends%20by%20Sep%2030th).

~~~
rantwasp
i don’t know how this suspension would work but the H1B is held in April. I
would assume most people have had their visa processed by now but it’s
possible i’m just if ignorant.

Regarding suspending H1Bs here is some not so breaking news: people on those
visas are targeting jobs where no qualified people exist to fill them. Those
people, by coming to the US create real value and increase the economic output
of the US. They are also, in general, really smart people that fuel
innovation. If you kill innovation the US is done.

~~~
blntechie
Application process starts in April but even when visa is approved and
processed, the holder can’t enter before October 1.

~~~
rantwasp
yeah. it starts in October but they cannot take the visa back, right?

~~~
blntechie
Apparently all visa holders will be denied entry so basically they can’t enter
until this order expires.

~~~
rantwasp
i did not pick this up from the linke article. i guess if your business relies
in H1B workers now you know which camp you need to support.

------
tra112233
I am on H1B visa currently, one of those with high paying jobs in my current
geographic area. I did my Masters in EE and have been on H1B since 2008,
waiting for my GC, which may or may not happen.

I want to ask a question to those who feel that I should not be here. Why is
it wrong for someone like me to move from my home country legally as a
student, then decide to work and live here, since it is legal and that option
is provided by the government. My employer is also willing to bear all costs
of making that happen. Of course, USA is a great country, maybe the greatest,
and people want to live and work here. Is it wrong to have such a desire, and
go about fulfilling it in a legal way? I am genuinely interested to know,
since I get the feeling that folks like me aren't exactly welcome, and would
like to understand why that is.

On the ethical side of things, I have wondered if I have denied an American
citizen a good life.I get the feeling that maybe I have, by the mere fact of
me existing and being present in this country, since I haven't misrepresented,
lied or cheated anyone to get my job. I have no doubt that given enough time,
my company will find someone like me, but how long it will take is anyone's
guess.

~~~
Ghjklov
I don't have a strong opinion on whether you should or shouldn't be here, but
I wanted to give a different perspective. It's really only tangentially
related to this whole discussion.

A lot of Americans have been taught that the U.S is the land of opportunity, a
place where anyone can come and through hard work can make something out of
themselves. What people probably imagine when they think about this is poor
immigrants coming and starting from the bottom, starting in food service jobs
or doing janitorial work or something and working their way up. That's the
American dream they were told about. None of them would imagine that through
an H1B visa, we'd be allowing some of the most highly educated immigrants from
other countries to come and immediately work in high level positions with
salaries of 6 or even 7 figures.

I find it understandable that some amount of Americans feel that this is wrong
and that they were told a lie.

~~~
tra112233
Thanks for that perspective. I understand that it can appear unfair for
someone whose ancestors had to build everything from scratch, to watch folks
start leading a luxurious life, right from the moment they land here.

~~~
Ghjklov
On the other hand, there are Americans who firmly believe that highly educated
people like yourself from poorer countries shouldn't be giving your knowledge
and work to first world western countries that are already wealthy. They think
that people like yourself should be back at home, trying to make their own
country better, rather than coming to make some other country richer.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain)

------
greatwhitenorth
In this thread, people who have no clue about how H1B works are making dumb
comments (both for and against) with such confidence. Before some one asks me,
I was a H1B visa holder and know how the system works. It makes me think how
many such people are commenting in other threads that they've no clue about.
Never ever follow any advice from a HN thread is a good rule to follow.

~~~
noncoml
Maybe, but your comment doesn't help much either.

If you think someone made an erroneous comment, it would be good to correct
them by replying to it, or just summarize the common misconceptions and share
your expertise in a top level comment.

Saying that people are making dumb comments, I know how it works, but then not
following up, is not in the spirit of HN

~~~
greatwhitenorth
My point was to make people go do their own research and not believe what some
random person writes (including me). If some one doesn't want to know the
truth and here only for spicy half-truths/lies, it's up to them. Don't give me
the spirit of HN crap, this is just another website.

------
noobermin
Some of these make no real sense, like L1 and J1 visas, which are so few and
uncommon and are often granted to individuals. J1's for example are for
researchers coming abroad to collaborate with scientists here, there isn't a
real argument that J1's are taking jobs from anyone else that I can tell. Not
that anyone should be travelling at all this year but one would have to see if
they get extended after covid dies down.

L1s also look like they're geared towards essentially overseas managers moving
to the US, particularly in the case of a single international company moving
their executives around physically.

~~~
GhostVII
J1 visas are what all the tech companies use for interns from Canada.
Technically you aren't allowed to work under a J1 visa, but everyone seems to
be doing that anyways - tech companies will always say that you are going to
be treated just like a full-time employee during the interview, and then say
you are only in the US for training when applying for the visa.

~~~
Jommi
Well you're not completely truthful here. Yes you can work under J1, its an
internship or traineeship visa. J-1 in general is related to learning tho. But
there is nothing against doing something for money.

------
GaryNumanVevo
The Silicon Valley was built on the backs of H1-B workers. There’s the bay
wouldn’t be the technical hub without access to the global workforce.

~~~
exsf0859
That's simply not true. SV was built in the 60's thru the 80's long before the
H1-B visa program started in 1990.

~~~
tartoran
Maybe the OP means the modern SV aka FAANG and that is not far from the truth
or very hard to disprove. Things turned out the way they did for a lot of
reasons and none of them can be really discounted.

------
hysan
If you step out of the tech (STEM) bubble, you’ll see that this is going to
have a lot of collateral damage. There are niche industries where H-1B is an
actual necessity. I know that what people complain about, especially on a tech
centric site like HN, is how it’s used in the development industry, but I hope
that people remember that there is a world outside of tech that this
negatively impacts.

~~~
rhexs
And what are these niche industries?

~~~
hysan
Social work organizations that require multilingual speakers is one that I
know of.

------
somurzakov
if US bans H-1Bs these jobs wont go to americans, these jobs will just be
offshored. Large american enterprises already have gigantic offices outside US
to manage IT/midoffice/backoffice or have relationships with contractor firms
like Cognizant.

It is so much easier to send one/two americans as expats to India/East Europe
to manage outsourced staff and the trend will just accelerate.

------
supercanuck
Here are the top 10 employers of H1-B.

With the exception of MSFT, all of these are "consulting firms" or "service"
providers.

So while everyone is having "ideological, values" based discussions, here is
what is __really __happening

Employer Name Employees Hired (All Years)

Infosys Limited 182,945

Tata Consultancy Services Limited 102,722

Deloitte Consulting Llp 65,976

Wipro Limited 63,354

Accenture Llp 51,360

Ibm India Private Limited 47,839

Capgemini America Inc 40,954

Microsoft Corporation 40,828

Ernst Young Us Llp 38,631

Cognizant Technology Solutions Us Corp 34,138

~~~
bdcravens
To directly turn labor costs into a profit center, you need a business model
that allows you to bill per unit of work.

Perhaps this is where H1-B restrictions need to be focused. No third-party
employment.

------
remote_phone
Anyone who thinks this is good for the US is stupid. In the era of remote
working, all this will do it hasten the retreat of software engineering from
the US. Facebook and Google do not care where their employees live, they want
the best in the world. This will just mean that jobs will truly flee the US.

Right now the US is winning because of such a high concentration of talented
software engineers compared to the rest of the world. It’s the same reason why
there is only one Hollywood, the same goes for Silicon Valley. If you prevent
people from coming here, the top companies will find them in their own
countries and then those are jobs lost forever. And then the drain begins.
This is a stupid self-defeating move by a self-defeating president.

~~~
theduder99
Facebook and Google could have converted their entire software dev workforce
to Indians in India any time they wanted. But they didn't, I wonder why
hmmmmm.

~~~
remote_phone
Because all the best Indian software engineers went to US grad schools and
then went to Silicon Valley. It sounds like you don’t live in Silicon Valley.

~~~
rhexs
This sounds incredibly racist. All the best Indian engineers went to Silicon
Valley?

~~~
remote_phone
How on earth is that racist? Just throwing that word around worthlessly is
what is wrong with this world right now.

------
noncoml
Xenophobia is a bitch. A few years ago I experienced an atrial fibrillation
while exercising, so I called an ambulance, as I didn't know what was
happening to me and thought that that was the end.

Once in the ambulance the paramedic started asking me where I am from and if I
came in on one of "those visas".

I was afraid I was about to die, and this fucker was being xenophobic.

~~~
buildbot
Hey that’s awful, I’m sorry you experienced that.

~~~
noncoml
Thank you. Not everyone is like this however. I can't even begin to tell you
how amazing, friendly and compassionate were the staff at the hospital(Kaiser
Permanente Santa Clara). They definitely made up for the awful ride there.

------
aparsons
Terrible idea. Upping the salary requirement for H1-B achieves the goal of
using it only for highly-skilled workers. Instead, now employers have to make
do with bootcamp grads instead of foreign engineers at lower level positions,
hurting businesses.

~~~
NotSammyHagar
Yes, thanks, that summarizes the whole situation. Just make min salaries 200k,
it could push up us salaries a little, but would mean many or most of those
people like those laid off from us universities working in it would not have
lost their jobs.

------
zomglings
I wonder if they can make an exemption for the tech industry.

Feels like this is just going to accelerate the moves we've seen in the Bay
Area towards companies going fully remote.

If this happens, the administration could see a lot of that money just leave
the country altogether.

~~~
raverbashing
Tech is what? 90% of H1-Bs?

No way they're going to make an exception for that

~~~
zomglings
Around 68.7% in 2017.

Going by these numbers (WARNING: PDF download):
[https://immigrationhistory.org/wp-
content/uploads/2019/03/h-...](https://immigrationhistory.org/wp-
content/uploads/2019/03/h-1b-2007-2017-trend-tables.pdf)

That shows what a short-sighted move this is on the part of the administration
- just re-election theater, I guess.

------
pramttl
I can see how some people see this as positive but the premise that a talented
and hard working foreign worker takes a job away from a citizen is short-
sighted. Zoom out a little and instead of a talented and hardworking foreign
employee taking a job you will see (on an average) that they help grow or
expand projects and companies that opens door to hiring more people. Not only
do they pay tax here and support social security benefits that many enjoy,
they also help businesses survive and grow and help them stay competitive in a
global market.

I'm not calling for open doors to everyone, this certainly needs a balanced
approach. However, with such suspensions I think we seem to be going one
extreme path. Global talent has helped develop industries and businesses here.
Increasing restrictions to this extent and suspending these visas is going to
push this talent out and promising businesses who want to get the best talent
to work with them, will not-immediately but definitely follow their way out
too. I hope the people who are celebrating this, at-least for a few minutes,
come out of the myopic view and look at the long term economic consequences.

------
andrewgodwin
I'm (worriedly) curious how this will affect people trying to change jobs on a
H1-B, as technically you need to file a new petition each time, and I can see
them somehow denying those too.

~~~
ra7
Extremely risky, I’d say. There would be people who have already changed jobs
pending H1B transfer authorization (since premium processing was suspending
earlier), also called joining “on receipt”. Normal processing takes weeks to
months and if their transfer applications end up getting rejected now, they
lose visa status.

------
iaw
So highly paid permanent resident tech professionals even more highly paid and
a lot of non-permanent residents get even more harmed because of their country
of birth....

I personally feel that the H1-B system needs to be rethought to encourage a
healthier but not at the expense of bringing hard working immigrants into this
country.

------
jdean677
This will definitely expedite tech jobs moving to India. At current market
rates, companies can afford to hire 3-5 engineers in India compared to 1
engineer in US with equivalent interview standards. I already see this
happening with Amazon(with new hyderabad campus), Google & Uber.

------
dzink
This could be a knock-out punch for many US universities. H1B is the visa
International students pursue after paying full out of state tuition to
colleges here.

~~~
boruto
Hasn't covid already done that. I think we are going to see a high upsurge in
competition for masters in my home country. Which is very good.

------
saltedonion
This and eroding section 230. I wonder if tech companies are going to fire
back at trump.

~~~
godzillabrennus
If Facebook/twitter/google wanted to play with fire they could use their
platformS to basically vanquish the GOP.

Those three companies control a significant amount of what people see online.

~~~
saltedonion
Certainly. But the risk is incredibly high. If trump gets re-elected he’s
going to go after these guys big time. Breaking them up would not be
stretching the imagination.

Censoring trump is the nuclear option.

~~~
tartoran
If he gets reelected (not likely) he would do it regardless. He’ll destroy the
country too

~~~
whb07
Word of advice, don’t let your extreme biases cloud observations and
judgements.

~~~
remote_phone
I’m completely unbiased. I voted for Trump in 2016. I think up until the
pandemic he was probably going to win. The Democrats were deeply uninspiring
except for Andrew Yang, and young people voted even less in 2020 than they did
in 2016 which is why Bernie went down.

However after the pandemic and his complete lack of leadership over police
brutality incidents and the BLM protests, he has turned off a lot of previous
supporters and fired up a lot of unmotivated haters. I think it’s going to be
a landslide Blue Wave.

To put in another way, if Trump wins again, the Dems need to dissolve the
party and the liberals need to create a new party altogether. This is about as
easy home run as it gets for them.

------
licebmi__at__
With all the push for remote work, won't that also accelerate these jobs
leaving US? Well, good for us outside the US.

------
austincheney
My common sense frustration here is how can the US possibly have a critical
shortage of developers on languages that are 20 to 50 years old? We have the
third highest population in the world and claim to have excellent education,
and these are high paying jobs at 2x-3x the national average yearly income.

So what qualifies the shortage? Is it like agriculture where Americans are too
entitled for the work? Are Americans viewed as generally too low quality?

~~~
rootsudo
1\. Developers dying, aging out, retiring.

2\. No real investment/push into learning legacy langauges.

3\. Philippines/Indian BPO encourage and actually train on the job. If you
look at accenture/whatever agency, even IBM, they'll guarantee a job in that
country if they stick with the on the job training. In those countries, entry
level, know nothing developers make $500/$1000 a month, best, vs being
experienced in the USA and making a minimum of $5000. 6-12K/yr is waaayyy
cheaper then, 70K/yr. I feel like it's employer idea of infinite monkey
theorem.

It's not entitlement, it's that in the USA, employers have to compete and
everyone can easily get a job in IT that isn't even programming for $40-50k,
think of help desk. All you have to do is show up, restart a few computers,
and be relatable.

~~~
hogFeast
It isn't that easy to get a job in IT. It is easy if you have the right
background.

I knew a kid who could program reasonably, was pretty smart but didn't go to
college. Got "hired" somewhere on help desk, was on a training contract for 3
months (he was just doing normal work, no pay), offered minimum wage job at
end, didn't get paid for overtime, and got fired when he wanted to leave work
at 6 because he had arranged to meet family for his birthday.

I think many people significantly understate how bad the US job market is for
a very significant minority of people.

Also, you are massively overstating how good development is in the
Phillippines or India. India churns out masses of CS grads who have never seen
a computer. The economics of training are different US/India but the incentive
there is the low wage. Remove that low wage incentive, and companies I think
there will be investment into US citizens.

(Btw, where I am there are for-profit companies that train ex-army people to
do software development...it works pretty well...but no-one asks: why aren't
tech companies doing this? Like these companies employ people on very
exploitative contracts, why don't companies just do this themselves? There is
something wrong with how tech companies are run).

------
bdcravens
It won't happen, but it would nice to see a comprehensive plan to address the
talent shortage that the H-1B is designed to address. Disadvantages faced by
people of color is front of the mind right now; it's the perfect time to
announce a detailed plan of training and education that would accomplish 2
purposes.

------
tibbydudeza
I think it is a very good idea ... poaching of the best and brightest talent
from less developed countries who invested in the education of these people is
a form of robbery.

If you need them , then let them work remotely and pay them fair wages as they
would have received in the US and let them contribute their tax to their own
country.

~~~
fredfoobar
My dude, the people who came here to work and make their living are
individuals, they have desires of their own to trade their services for a good
life. Countries don't own their citizens, they are entities organized by
people interested in living there.

~~~
SomeoneFromCA
Of course they do not own their citizen, that is why you can take them to the
US or other developed countries. However yes you do rob these countries of
skilled workforce, and yes you do create an environment, which stuntnts the
growth of these countries and yes you do increase the misery of the other
citizen who is left in that countries. You just have to be honest, and say
that benefit for US outweighs the loss for say India or Ukraine.

~~~
fredfoobar
I don't think someone from a collectivist culture will never be able to
understand the motivations of someone from an individualistic culture, I
believe it's a pretty deep seated blindness. I can't help you, rather, we
can't help each other, you just have to be in the right region of the globe
that supports your intrinsic culture. [1]

> which stuntnts the growth of these countries and yes you do increase the
> misery of the other citizen who is left in that countries

So, are you suggesting that each country imprison all their individuals and
extract value for itself? Absurd.

[1] [https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-sapolsky-
culture...](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-sapolsky-culture-and-
behavior-20140803-story.html)

~~~
SomeoneFromCA
What does it have to do with individualism or collectivism? Why are you
bringing an opinion of Sapolsky as if he was an important person?

What I am telling that the current H1B system in US does not benefit anyone
exception for the employer and probably enslaved employee. The original
motivation behind the program is decent - let the really outstanding
specialists to develop more (as US provides more opportunities for the top
people), but what it become is essentially stripping the countries of
intellectual power in bulk, and using back in US for a cheap price, basically
enslaving them, by locking them via H1Bs. American workforce suffers, because
they are under constant stress for being replaced by cheap H1Bs, the poor
countries suffer, because of brain drain, world becomes more unequal, USA
becomes more unequal.

I never said nothing about "imprisonment" \- most of poor countries are not
prisons, and especially not for IT specialists, who can have some decent
quality of live with their salaries. And the only hope for "the prisons" as
you mentioned before to improve, is to keep their intellectuals in.

~~~
fredfoobar
> What does it have to do with individualism or collectivism? Why are you
> bringing an opinion of Sapolsky as if he was an important person?

This proves my point, you think like a collectivist, the individual doesn't
matter much to you. Besides, the reason I posted that article is because I
wanted to give you some reference to understand the construct I'm talking
about (a bit of "meta" so to speak), so that you can orient your thinking and
it didn't have anything to do with Sapolsky or his "importance" (seems like
this matters to you more than actual facts). It seems like you're a
collectivist AND not intellectually curious (they usually go hand in hand
though).

Your grammar and "philosophy" sounds very Asian. Most of your thinking
revolves around "for the greater good (of the country)". Your determination of
the "border" for benefiting from "greater good" seems arbitrary, why not the
whole world?

As an individualist, my advice to you is: do whatever feels right to you. If
you're truly for the greater good of the country, who are you to decide what
the country has to do? and why should I care about your opinion? whats the
proof that what you say is actually happening?

~~~
SomeoneFromCA
I do not need any scolding from a random internet person. My grammar cannot be
"Asian" because I am native speaker of an Eastern European language. You do
not even know me, and yet are trying to psychoanalyze me remotely. I am
neither "individualist" nor "collectivist", I am just a pragmatic - whatever
creates more stable world, without concentration of power in one country or
group of people (which is exactly what goes against individualism) rubs me
wrong way. I, in my turn, would advice to grow beyond Ayn Rand books, and
understand that neither "individualism" nor "collectivism" can be ultimate
goals, they are just instruments for particular societal issue at hand.
Attempt to coerce people to buy into libertarian ideology is very
"collectivist" by the way, it is forcing people to be like you, to make you
feel that everyone else are like you.

------
amaajemyfren
In the last few weeks many technology companies have been able to have their
staff work remotely.

I wonder what suspending Visas means in so far as remote working is a thing.

------
stunt
There are solutions to the problems we discuss these days. We have experts and
researchers who are dedicated to find better solutions.

But sadly, Politics are focused to win the election and next elections.
Populism and non-populism, left and right, social-networks and media, we all
made it so hard for experts and scientist to be heard and to be trusted. We
are so loud that we are only hearing ourselves. We can talk non-sense with
insufficient knowledge and call it open discussion.

------
ojbyrne
Most tech companies are WFH right now, so if the government does this,
there'll probably be lots of work for foreign lawyers setting up subsidiaries
in other countries so that all the people affected can literally work from
Home.

------
vsskanth
This is going to have a chilling effect on international students thinking of
coming to the United States.

Many people who do end up getting kicked out will probably take their jobs
with them back home, especially in tech.

~~~
theduder99
Many international students come to the US to get a world class education.
That won't change.

~~~
kondu
Not at all. For most of the universities, grad schools are absolute cash cows.
International students come here for grad school largely because of the
associated 3 year(2 for non-STEM) OPT period and ease of getting a H1B during
it.

------
bebc
2020 is the election year.

------
victor106
I am not exactly sure how this would help people working in tech (and other
tech related areas like business analysts, PM's etc.,)

This makes it easy for companies to outsource work.

When all employees are remote what's the value in bringing someone onshore?
And once jobs are outsourced I don't think they will come back.

So this could be marginally beneficial for onshore workers or it could be very
bad.

------
dk8996
I worked in the finance industry, IT side. I can say that these work Visas are
abused in that industry. Less so in tech and startup space. I think having a
min salary that's 2x average for the job would also solve this. I'm will to
see what type of data this pause provides.

------
crispyporkbites
All my friends in the US are staying put now, they can’t go see their families
after covid because they have no idea if they’ll be allowed back in.

Bad for america, good for the rest of the world though- maybe by restricting
American foreign policy we’ll see more competition for SV open up globally.

------
seibelj
Simple solution - auction off the H1B visas. This will ensure only the most
needed, highest-value employees get it. Works with any number of visas. I fail
to see why this easy, simple fix that also earns money for the government is
not applied.

~~~
bguillet
Because then no small company can compete with the big ones in the auction...

~~~
rhexs
If your small company needs H1bs to survive, it doesn’t sound like a very
sound business in the first place.

~~~
boruto
It is not small companies per se, But a mechanical company can never pay equal
to FANG.They do require niche engineering skills.

What about academics and non-profits?

------
known
Indians are running an Organized Mafia in America
[https://archive.vn/XTZ5f](https://archive.vn/XTZ5f)

------
sys_64738
You need highly skilled immigrants to pay for taxes and healthcare+SSA for the
economy and those retired. If you don't fund retirement programmes then you're
in trouble.

------
juskrey
BTW any horror stories about H1B people stealing good jobs from locals?

------
fsociety
Honestly I’m so tired of this shit. I can’t leave the US without the risk of
not being able to come back, and my Mom is in a different country in a high
risk category for COVID-19.

If she is infected and hospitalized, I have to quit my job and leave my home
to spend last moments with her. Fuck Trump.

------
coreai
If this is true then next year the chances of getting an H1B would become less
than half while the applications would double.

------
kache_
This is great news for Canadians who would like to move and work in America. A
lot less competition

------
black_13
If you really need ppl to do the work make them here. Lots of ppl are
available currently.

------
grad_ml
I guess there won't be any protests like muslim ban, this time.

------
MangoCoffee
i have no dog in this fight but the comments in this thread...

the amount of layoffs and unemployment since covid 19. this move is not to
please you. it is to please the American people. only employers will care. the
middle/working class American won't care (this is the biggest voting bloc that
Trump needs)

this is a persuasion for Nov.

------
MintelIE
Tech hiring and salary suppression cartel's going to have a rough time.

------
noip
I think H1B visas should be obliterated. One of the justifications is that
they bring in international talent to fill in "shortages" in America. However,
according this article by the Harvard Business Review:
[https://hbr.org/2017/05/the-h-1b-visa-debate-
explained](https://hbr.org/2017/05/the-h-1b-visa-debate-explained)

\- There is mixed evidence that there are actually shortages in STEM \- People
are graduating from STEM fields at a rather high rate than in the past, but
only half of them end up utilizing their degree; in sectors such as IT, one
reason being why graduates aren't entering the field is due to a lack of job
openings \- Despite all the clamor about "shortages," some STEM fields pay
embarrassingly low, and in fact pay STEM workers less than they have in the
past \- There is no requirement that entities show proof of workforce shortage
before hiring workers on H-1B visas \- Some workplaces have already had
American workers train in their H1-B visa replacements and then were out of a
job

Not in the article, but some of my own experiences having been in the STEM
field \- Many internationals seeking to get hired in the US STEM force don't
actually have the "everyday technology" that the US uses, such as in molecular
biology labs; this means quite a lot goes into training H1-B visa holders.
Couple that with poor English-speaking skills. I found myself having to
explain to an H1-B visa holder what a "pen" was, or a "shelf." Granted, some
H1-B visa holders underwent formal education in the US, obtaining PhDs and
whatnot, so you'd imagine their English would be better, however... \- Many
countries look down on the US. I have worked for many foreign employers in
STEM, and have been insulted just for being an American, and their views of
America are largely stereotyped (Americans love guns, they eat hamburgers and
pizza and are fat, etc.) \- It changes the workplace culture; I've worked in a
variety of STEM environments that had a lot of internationals, and more than
once I was out-grouped for being an American. I have had opportunities closed
off to me simply because my group's sense of belonging was rooted in being
"non-American." This was detrimental to my aspirations in entering the STEM
field as an American.

I don't believe there is a shortage in STEM. The fact that it's hard to even
get a well-paying job in STEM, especially tenure positions in STEM, and that
once you do land a STEM position you can face discrimination for being an
American in AMERICA, H1B visas should be obsolete.

Get rid of the internationals. Focus on your American workforce and create
incentives to enter STEM. Create a better system for learning math, and
inspiring aspirations in science Create environments that will nurture
American students instead of block their opportunities. Give Americans a
chance to contribute to their economy instead of shoveling money down the
pockets of people who don't even like America or Americans and would go back
home if they could.

------
femiagbabiaka
we need to get rid of the executive order or at least severely limit its
scope. both Obama and Trump have abused it -- presidents should not be able to
hand down sweeping regulatory change like this at the drop of a hat without
going through the legislature.

~~~
jakeogh
By abuse do you mean use? If not, O admitted he was doing something
unconstutional with it, numerious times. Which T example are you thinking of?

Many laws are written to deligate rule making authority to the executive
branch, clearly the president has ultimate authority there. Perhaps you want
the legslative branch to write more specific language?

~~~
femiagbabiaka
The constitution is not the end all be all —- I’m saying that the use of
executive orders to accomplish partisan policy objectives is overreach by the
executive branch and should be curtailed. I don’t care much if it’s the
legislative or judicial branch that does it.

~~~
jakeogh
I cant understand your comment unless you define partisan.

If the legslative branch deligates the rule making to the executive branch,
then take it up with the legslative branch... right? Blaiming the executive
branch seems pointless. Am I missing something?

The Constitution is the law of the land. Are you referring to the Magna Carta?

Humans have inalienable rights, can we agree?

I believe people have the inaleinable right to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit
of Happiness"... someone could call that a partisan policy objective.

~~~
femiagbabiaka
Rights protected by the constitution are definitely not partisan. I don’t
agree with some of the rhetoric in this oped wrt COVID, but I do like the case
it lays out: [https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/5/executive-
orde...](https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/5/executive-orders-are-
not-laws/)

------
ceo_tim_crook
thank god, I've seen a lot of americans rejected especially POC of varied
backgrounds turned down in favor of some H1B nonsense to often it really
impacts the ability for folks to rise up and move to new industries

~~~
fsociety
Please explain more, your comment is suspicious given your sign-up time.

~~~
ceo_tim_crook
what's to explain? h1bs are widely used to gain access to bodies instead of
training/developing local talent it's a joke every interview template i've
been given seems like it was made to exclude many people who would otherwise
be fine

it's not like immigration is bad or anything but the balance is screwed up and
and it's causing long term damage it's bad for immigrants and bad for
americans

------
tathougies
Most countries have suspended immigration at this point havent they? Hard to
argue against such a thing amid covid.

~~~
joelbluminator
I don't know that that's true, any source for that? If countries are opening
up for tourists (!) I don't see why not for immigration.

~~~
infamouscow
Name one country that has opened for tourists or has recently (as in the last
week or two) said they will open for tourists.

~~~
joelbluminator
Greece [https://www.greece-is.com/when-can-i-travel-to-greece-
again/](https://www.greece-is.com/when-can-i-travel-to-greece-again/). Also,
I'm based in the Netherlands and heard that Amsterdam already sees tourists
from Germany etc. Of course it's nothing like the masses that usually come
there, but it's not closed.

~~~
tathougies
Amsterdam and Germany are both in the Schengen area. Certainly there is more
to border shutdowns between the two states other than government fiat?

------
m0zg
As a former H1-B: makes sense. H1-B is abused a lot, and importing new entry-
level workers when unemployment is at record highs after COVID makes zero
sense. Although I'm sure Hawaiian judge will disagree.

~~~
ixtli
Stopping workers coming in from one place isn’t about making sure Americans
have jobs tho. It doesn’t magically change the cost of rent. It doesn’t
magically educate the uneducated. Nor should it. This is about being able to
report to middle class white people that ‘immigration stopped’.

~~~
pelasaco
I'm not sure if you are right: [https://www.blackenterprise.com/will-
limiting-h1b-visas-help...](https://www.blackenterprise.com/will-
limiting-h1b-visas-help-african-american-tech-workers/)

BTW 500k people on the H1B1 visa is a hell lot of "skilled people":
[https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/12/us/foreign-workers-
visas-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/12/us/foreign-workers-visas-
immigrants.html)

~~~
m0zg
What's also hidden behind the numbers is that a lot (most?) of H1-Bs come from
India and China, both of which have insanely long green card backglogs.
Because changing jobs while on H1-B is a perilous affair (and employers know
it), those folks end up basically in indentured servitude to their original
H1-B sponsor employer, especially if they have families and/or property in the
US.

------
nine_zeros
Erratic government decisions can have severe consequences on businesses.

About time US companies realize that they need to have more fault tolerance to
support their employees by open more global offices. This is especially true
because the world outside is becoming more competitive and erratic business
decisions like this will destroy product competitiveness.

As for foreign companies/entrepreneurs/would be business owners with capital,
the US is shut. There is no need to do business here.

------
joelbluminator
And yet everyone and their mother wanna move there no matter the price paid in
uncertainty, pressure and mental health. They could try go to a country with a
straight forward immigration process like Canada, but money is more important
than anything else to some people.

~~~
toast0
If you're immigrating for economic opportunity, it would make sense to try to
make the most of it.

A lot of people have a plan to make a bunch of money for 10-20 years and then
go back and be entreprenerial in their home countries etc. Canada may (or may
not) be a better permanent home, but if the goal is to make a bunch of money,
that's not the best place to do it.

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joelbluminator
That's fine, as long as they realise there's a big price to pay.

