
Why I am moving to Cleveland - mooreds
http://coreysnipes.com/moving-to-cleveland/
======
lightbyte
I currently live in Cleveland. It's alright, but the author is going to be in
for quite a shock regarding

>clean, vibrant downtown area, ... good transit (including lightrail), a
diverse economy

The city is extremely dirty and constantly has a very bad smell, and the RTA
(public transit) is a disaster. The direct downtown area is essentially just a
massive parking lot. The economy also consists entirely of the Cleveland
Clinic and a few other large health care corporations. Not exactly what I'd
call diverse.

Other than that it's pretty average, there are fun things to do but you're
going to run out fairly quick.

~~~
brucepucci
I've worked downtown for a few years and I really don't think your comments
are entirely accurate. I don't want to turn this into a back and forth but by
no means would I say that it is downtown is dirty (there are some less
fortunate spots just outside of the city). I ride the light rail RTA to work
every day from ~20 miles out and consistently get to work at about the time. I
don't ride the buses so perhaps that is the issue. I would agree that there
isn't a lot to do but characterizing all of downtown as a parking lot is a
little rough. Progressive, Key, AmTrust, Sherwin-Willaims, Parker-Hannifin,
Eton are all Fortune 500 and in the area and have nothing to do with the
medical industry.

~~~
__abc
I rode the light rail from east side to downtown every day for two years. It's
dirty. West side to downtown may be another story.

~~~
aml183
I live in UC. I leave from the Little Italy stop. The train is extremely
clean. Someone who has also lived in NYC. The trains are magnitudes cleaner in
Cle than NYC.

~~~
__abc
Weird, that's the EXACT one I rode. Plus, the stairway up to the train stand
that overlooked those contemporary condo's always smelled like piss 5+ years
ago .... NOT CLEAN! Glad they have been cleaned up since.

~~~
justin66
Pretty sure that station has recently been rebuilt, the one at the foot of
Cedar Hill certainly has. The last five years have seen a lot of new buses, as
well, although I'm not sure how true that is once you get a little further
away from the health-tech corridor and University Circle.

~~~
aml183
Little Italy station is brand new. There was one on border of East Cleveland
and UC that was very sketchy. It's now gone.

------
justboxing
Everytime I see a "Why I am moving to ____ " or "Why I am leaving ____", I
cringe. 9 out of 10 times, it's OP's specific situation that makes sense, but
the articles paint a very generalized rosy picture of the destination or a
very generalized terrible picture of the current city (ex: "SF Bay Area has
gotten so expensive, commute is horrible, everything sucks.... so I'm moving
to Austin, tech community is so great... blah blah..."

~~~
trolliloquy
Agree, often the remarks are heavily opinionated & biased in favor of their
own world view, change perspective a little & the whole set up might look
awkward.

I've rarely seen a few articles(actually they exist) which talks in terms of
data, verifiable facts, empirical evidence, and a forecast based on these.

~~~
justin66
> I've rarely seen a few articles(actually they exist) which talks in terms of
> data, verifiable facts, empirical evidence

You will drive yourself nuts trying to understand the essence of a place based
on that stuff. It's an extreme example, but can you imagine trying to convey
the character of Venice by discussing crime rate, property values, taxes,
commute times, and so on?

------
zjaffee
As someone who just spent the last 4 years in Cleveland (for school), I want
to comment on professional environment of the city for those interested in
tech careers. The number of companies is pretty low, and the professional
environment is far more conservative/traditional than what you'd see in the
big tech hubs. Also if you look at BLS data, there is a below average number
of tech jobs when compared to other economic regions.

The kinds of industries that dominate in NE Ohio are either advanced chemical
manufacturing and medicine through the Cleveland Clinic.

Other comments both positive and negative:

The RTA is pretty bad, but it isn't bad at all by American public
transportation standards.

The city has amazing opportunities within the arts for a city of it's size,
the museums are really great and free. Additionally, the Cleveland orchestra
is relatively cheap to attend and they are one of the best orchestras in the
world. Lastly, big acts and shows do come to playhouse square.

Cleveland has some really great public events, Bright Winter and Ingenuity
Fest are absolutely amazing. It has an amazing food scene that is constantly
expanding, where waiters at top restaurants can also afford a home in the
city.

Lastly, for a city that is constantly ranked as one of most out of shape
cities in the country, people are so incredibly passionate about this place.
In bigger, more global cities, there is less of a desire among the general
population to improve the community at large. In Cleveland, everyone is on the
same team.

Overall, if you are a person who likes small cities (I personally am not),
Cleveland is a pretty great choice overall, especially if cost of
homeownership is an important factor in the city you choose to live in.

------
capkutay
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM)

Jokes aside, it's odd that OP is lumping Cleveland in with other 'mid-west'
cities. They all have their own very different characters.

Chicago, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh...all very
different.

Also most of the top 30-40 American cities have similar minimum amenities. A
theatre, downtown with restaurants, light rail. I don't think that should
surprise anyone. It's just the breadth/depth of options they offer that
differs.

~~~
mindcrime
_Jokes aside, it 's odd that OP is lumping Cleveland in with other 'mid-west'
cities._

As an outsider (I'm from NC) I have always thought of Cleveland as a "rust
belt" city first and foremost. I tend to assume Cleveland has more in common
with, say, Pittsburgh, Charleston WV, Detroit, etc., than what I think of as a
more stereotypical "mid-west" city like Kansas City, St. Louis, or even
Chicago.

But of those, Chicago is the only one I've spent any significant time in, so I
may be way off. Anybody from one of those areas care to comment? Is the "rust
belt" identify meme a strong factor to locals? More or less so than being
considered "mid western"?

~~~
justin66
> Is the "rust belt" identify meme a strong factor to locals? More or less so
> than being considered "mid western"? reply

I imagine the "rust belt" moniker is something people identify with - or
reject as being derogatory, which always struck me as funny - more than the
"midwestern" label, which people in Cleveland probably regard more as a mere
geographical distinction. That's just a guess, though.

I don't think it's odd that the OP was lumping Cleveland in with other
midwestern cities, though. I would say that Chicago, Cincinnati, Cleveland,
Columbus, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh (and why leave out Detroit? or even Buffalo?)
all share some DNA in the same way Boston, Philadelphia, New York, and
Baltimore do.

~~~
capkutay
I really see nothing in common with Chicago and Cleveland. Especially not down
to their 'DNA'. Chicago is a globally recognized metropolitan city...that's
their DNA.

Cleveland is a blue collar town with its roots in industrial manufacturing and
oil.

Chicago has always been a diverse metro area focussed on finance, technology,
academia.

~~~
justin66
It's ironic that if you were going to pick nits with my "common DNA" comment
that you'd balk at the comparison between Chicago and Cleveland in particular.
One thing that struck me when walking through Graceland Cemetery was how many
of the earliest settlers [0] of Chicago were from Northeast Ohio, so there is
literally DNA in common there. Of course, it's obvious that that sort of thing
has continued throughout the cities history, if you think of how migrants
entered the country in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries and moved
westward.

[0] [http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/eternal-
silence](http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/eternal-silence)

> I really see nothing in common with Chicago and Cleveland.

I assume you haven't spent much time in both. (edited down a longer comment
since, really, who cares...)

~~~
capkutay
I've spent a lot of time in Chicago and a little time in cleveland. I have no
clue how anyone can think they're similar cities. I think most Chicagoans
would be offended if you said 'oh chicago and cleveland are so similar!'

~~~
justin66
> I have no clue how anyone can think they're similar cities.

They're midwestern American cities on the Great Lakes with the same climate
and roughly the same geography and ethnic makeup. It's not like you're
comparing Florence and Reykjavik, for heaven's sake. I'm fascinated by your
reaction to this comparison.

(If you're interested in a less information-free exchange on the topic: my
reaction the first time I visited Chicago years ago was roughly "so this is
how Cleveland might have ended up if they'd had their shit together 100 years
ago." It's not really accurate - there are some economic reasons why
Cleveland's decline was predestined - but feel free to explain to me why it's
a completely crazy reaction.)

> I think most Chicagoans would be offended if you said 'oh chicago and
> cleveland are so similar!'

That's not exactly what I said... although, seriously, most of my friends in
Chicago aren't quite so easily offended.

------
__abc
I lived there for several years. Nothing negative, you just run out of things
to do/see rather quickly. Only so many times you can hit the same restaurants
in Tremont, Ohio City, E. 4th, Coventry, etc.

Nothing negative to add, it's absolutely not a bad town and we enjoyed our
time there, but at the end became VERY bored.

~~~
test6554
You never run out of things to see if you never go AFK!

------
pwthornton
Cleveland has an interesting mixture of things that make it a very livable
place: Very good restaurants (including one of the best Little Italy's in the
country), elite healthcare and elite cultural institutions. The schools
outside of Cleveland tend to be good, and there are good private school
options within the city.

On the healthcare front, Cleveland can compete with anywhere in the world. On
the cultural institution front, Cleveland is one of the best non-New York
cities in the U.S., particularly with its orchestra, museums and plays.

If you can get a good job, why not? That's essentially the rub. I'm from
Cleveland, and I live in DC, because the job market is much better. A lot of
the older cities in the U.S. have good neighborhoods and cultural
institutions. They need to find creative ways to get modern jobs.

~~~
mooreds
> They need to find creative ways to get modern jobs.

Woo remote workers?

Pass laws banning non competes?

~~~
pwthornton
Banning non-competes, getting rid of laws banning municipal Internet, laying
tons of fiber down, etc. Ohio has a bunch of good universities and thriving
medical and biotech fields. There is no reason it doesn't have a bigger tech
scene.

There is also no reason that Ohio doesn't have the best Internet in the
country (or any other state). It's there for the taking for any governments
that don't want to bow down to cable donations. Governments looking to woo
startups (or get more home grown ones), would be wise to provide blazing fast
and cheap Internet.

Cleveland, for instance, has Case Western Reserve University and is close to
Ohio State, Pitt, Carnegie Melon, Notre Dame and more. Surely, there is a way
to form partnerships and programs to harness that knowledge and talent.

------
justin66
I know there are lots of Bay Area HNers. Here are some comments from a
Clevelander who lived in Berkeley and worked in SF and Oakland for several
years.

You will notice two things pretty quickly if you work here. First, and I don't
know why more people don't mention this, the public libraries (in Cleveland
and statewide in Ohio) are infinitely better than you are accustomed to.
Second, while walking around downtown you will miss the human poop, humans
pooping, and general human poop-related concerns that you might have
grudgingly folded into your daily routine in SF. (I find the "dirty" comments
below amusing)

Other than that, probably the best concise way to characterize it is: an
extremely small version of Chicago with less distinguished architecture and a
less developed waterfront (but better public parks and easier traffic), a
couple of museums and a classical orchestra that are on par with NYC, food and
theatre that is good but limited in scope, and hospitals that are as good as
anywhere in the world. All the sort of postindustrial stuff you can read about
the midwest applies to one degree or another to the larger metropolitan area.
All the major league sports if you're into that sort of thing.

------
miheermunjal
wow! didn't expect to see this - same reaction I and my gf had moving to
Cleveland (here since July!). Surprisingly fun and plenty to do, not to
mention the abundance of restaurants. Coming from a bigger city I didn't know
what to expect, but this has been a great summer so far!

~~~
tigershark
Winter is coming!

~~~
tcbawo
At least Cleveland isn't as flat as Chicago. You can find sledding and skiing
hills fairly easily.

------
jackcosgrove
It will be interesting to see if remote work rejuvenates other parts of the
country. You could buy a Victorian mansion in many parts of the country for
less than a condo costs in the expensive cities.

~~~
mooreds
Yes. I think we'll see some rejuvenation, but it also depends on other factors
too.

    
    
       * other job opptys (either remote or local, if the current job doesn't work out)
       * quality of life (schools, recreation, weather, etc)

------
bluedino
Much of Cleveland is a dump. Close to 100 murders a year is a lot for a city
of 400k. Lots of crime, high car insurance, it's just dreary looking and
feeling like Milwaukee or Detroit. The white areas of Cleveland are pretty
racist - it's a very segregated city, like most other large cities in the rust
belt.

~~~
aml183
The murders mostly occur in places like East Cleveland or near Kinsman. These
aren't places that people just visit. Why is Cleveland racist?

~~~
tcbawo
There was a huge migration of white people out of the city in the 1960s once
they started bussing students between neighborhoods to improve diversity. In
the following years, several suburbs have experienced similar 'white flight'.
This might be changing, but it has a long way to go.

Regarding crime, I recently saw a map that showed a horrific level of lead
poisoning in the urban Cleveland area children , most likely due to old
housing stock.

------
francisofascii
Refreshing to see software devs moving to average cities rather than the
typical SF, NYC, Seattle, etc. Impressed by the "300 miles of all-purpose
hiking and biking trails." I enjoy reading posts like this.

~~~
jackcosgrove
Fifty years ago when bad parts of Manhattan started to gentrify the people
moving there were seen as outre. Now moving to a loft in a converted warehouse
is desired by the most straight-laced college graduates. Those early urban
pioneers, even if they were motivated by nothing else than low prices,
eventually came to be seen as ahead of their time.

Now, living in Cleveland is more outre than living in SoMa, for a certain
college-educated set. However the opportunity is immense as world population
keeps growing and cities like Cleveland have great bones. Sure you have to
trade some insider status to get a piece of these cities, but that's a plus
for me.

------
Mz
"Close to Family" seems to be one of the biggest reasons people move. Also,
this personal connection seems to play a big role for many people:

 _A musician friend from Denver moved there last year and I didn’t notice. But
this summer, she posted something on Facebook along the lines of “I expected
to tolerate it, but I actually love it.” My interest was piqued. And the more
I looked into it, the better it sounded._

------
rokhayakebe
Does anyone have suggestions for underrated (or upcoming) cities with a lot to
offer and moderate real estate?

~~~
chadbaud
Kansas City is worth a look

~~~
tylerflick
I second this, if you can tolerate the Midwest winters. Kansas City has plenty
of industry (and great BBQ!) and is fairly clean. One downside is the lack of
a light rail system.

~~~
avenoir
The winters aren't too bad and I'd say pretty mild actually. You get more ice
storms than snow in KC. It's not like Chicago or Minneapolis by any means.
Lightrail expansion is coming in the next few years, which I think will
officially take it out of the "toy project" state it is in now. I also think
with the addition of the new airport KC will just blow up. It's already
growing pretty rapidly.

------
taylodl
There's one phrase you'd better understand: lake effect snow. On that front
Columbus is a much better alternative. That aside, there's a lot to like in
this neck of the woods.

~~~
justin66
Has Columbus got any better in recent years at actually plowing the snow they
get? The city used to get genuinely impassible a lot more often than
Cleveland, in spite of getting a lot less snow overall.

------
gman2093
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw-
aSim4Fks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw-aSim4Fks)

------
RandomInteger4
Cleveland is great. The parkway off of detroit road in westlake gives a nice
bike route that heads down near Strongsville and beyond.

------
nether
Highly relevant:
[http://i.imgur.com/CfZnUDG.png](http://i.imgur.com/CfZnUDG.png)

~~~
anoonmoose
"The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and
falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."

~~~
nether
You mean, someone would just go out, and tell lies, on the internet?

------
notananthem
I love cleveland and my family's all from there and it has the best bar in
america (now that's class) but why do I care someone's moving from one podunk
city to another? Cleveland is way cooler than denver, sure, but maybe not for
this guy.

------
paxy
Sounds like a pretty solid case of "grass is greener on the other side". The
bullet points in the article can be applied to every city, and Cleveland has
the same problems that residents of these cities generally complain about.

Plus LeBron is leaving next year.

------
pmurT
Youtube the "hastily made Cleveland tourism video"

------
apengwin
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpr_KaaRjW0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpr_KaaRjW0)

~~~
capkutay
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM)

Jokes aside, it's odd that OP is lumping Cleveland in with other 'mid-west'
cities. They all have their own very different characters. Chicago,
Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh...all very different.

Also most of the top 30-40 American cities have the same level of amenities. A
theatre, downtown with restaurants, light rail. I don't think that should
surprise anyone.

