
Rat poison from pot farms is poisoning owls, study finds - anigbrowl
http://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article/Rat-poison-from-pot-farms-poisoning-owls-study-12489063.php
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TillE
> on illegal farms on private property

There's been a lot of media hand-wringing recently about ecological damage
caused by illegal cannabis grows. I'm not exactly sure why, as it's not
relevant to any policy debates.

Marijuana can and should be grown organically and sustainably, there's nothing
about the plant which complicates that beyond perhaps the need to prevent
pollination.

~~~
2III7
The main environmental impact comes from the plants high water consumption
which for a grown up plant is a bit over 20 litres per day. Thats when growing
in soil. Hydro weed needs much less water but doesn't taste so good.

~~~
brianwawok
How much water do almonds need?

How much water in the US is used to grow almonds? How much water would be
needed to grow weed for every man, woman, and child in the US?

~~~
nothrabannosir
If this is rhetorical, and you know the answers, do share. Because I have no
idea. It sounds like you do?

Additionally: why are those numbers relevant? Just for context?

~~~
ceejayoz
Almonds are brought up because they take up 10% of California's water
([https://newrepublic.com/article/125450/heres-real-problem-
al...](https://newrepublic.com/article/125450/heres-real-problem-almonds)).

A single almond takes 1.1 gallons of water
([http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/02/wheres-
califo...](http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/02/wheres-californias-
water-going/)) to produce.

Any argument for limiting marijuana growing based on "it takes lots of water!"
has to address why we already permit stuff like almonds to be grown in
drought-prone areas.

~~~
nothrabannosir
Ok I can hardly compare “x litres per plant per day” vs “n gallons per
almond”. How long does a plant live and how many “portions” does it have? I
can guess almonds would be, say, a handful for a “portion”? So that’s.. how
much in litres?

See this is why I’m not super stoked about that original comment. Instead of
making a clear point, I just get thrown some random hints and a “you go figure
it out”. It’s like I’m supposed to make ones argument for them, and it might
turn out to be completely irrelevant (maybe almonds are orders of magnitude
more [e:less!] thirsty!) and then I can’t even reply because the actual
argument was never made!

Just give me the numbers. Do your own homework :) (well, not you, but op)

(Edit: as someone else mentioned, this is assuming op was being rhetorical. If
it’s a genuine q: I completely second it)

~~~
brianwawok
I know almonds take up a TON of water in an area without a ton of water.

I do not really want to do the math, but if you are worried about the water
usage of weed, I do implore you to first look up the water usage of almonds.

~~~
nothrabannosir
Thanks, but no thanks. I’m not keen to do the homework for your argument.

[e: I’m not saying this to be petty, my point is this is not a strong
argument. It’s a common occurrence, and a pet peeve of mine. I can imagine it
feels right—in fact I also believe you are probably right! But were I of the
opposite inclination, this wouldn’t convince me.]

~~~
gknoy
I had thought that the high water use of California's Central Valley almond
trees was something that was relatively widely known. I know I've encountered
in in a variety of readings over the last couple of years, and I haven't been
specifically trying to research it.

This is something that has already been written about a fair amount; is it
really fair to expect him to "do his homework" for the counter to your claim
when it's based on what is, to some, common knowledge? Moreover, the poster
that you had already replied to above included two links to articles about the
cost (in water) of growing various things. If you feel the need to "check the
numbers", I think the burden might be on you to go find them.

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randomdrake
Study: Exposure to rodenticides in Northern Spotted and Barred Owls on remote
forest lands in northwestern California: evidence of food web contamination

Citation: Gabriel, M. W., L. V. Diller, J. P. Dumbacher, G. M. Wengert, J. M.
Higley, R. H. Poppenga, and S. Mendia. 2018. Avian Conservation and Ecology
13(1):2.

Link:
[https://doi.org/10.5751/ACE-01134-130102](https://doi.org/10.5751/ACE-01134-130102)

DOI: 10.5751/ACE-01134-130102

Abstract: The documentation of anticoagulant rodenticides (AR) in nontarget
species has centered around wildlife that inhabit urban or agricultural
settings. However, recent studies in California have shown that AR use in
remote forest settings has escalated and has exposed and killed forest
carnivores. Anticoagulant rodenticides have been documented as physiological
stressors for avian species. Northern Spotted Owl (Strix occidentalis caurina)
critical and occupied habitat overlaps the areas where these studies occurred,
yet no data were previously available to demonstrate whether this species was
similarly affected. We investigated whether avian predators are also exposed
to these specific pesticides and whether Barred Owls (Strix varia) may be a
surrogate to indicate exposure rates in Northern Spotted Owls. We documented
that 70% of Northern Spotted Owls and 40% of Barred Owls were exposed to one
or more anticoagulant rodenticides. None of the rodent prey species sampled
within the study area were positive for ARs. There were no spatial clusters
for either low or high rates of exposure, though we detected low temporal
trend early on throughout the study area. We hypothesize a recent change in
land-use toward marijuana cultivation may have led to the increased use of AR
in this area. This study demonstrates environmental contamination within
occupied Northern Spotted Owl habitat and that Barred Owls can be used as
adequate surrogates for detecting these pollutants in a rare species such as
the Northern Spotted Owl. Furthermore, additional studies should focus on
whether these pesticides are also affecting prey availability for these forest
avian species.

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detuur
As opposed to rat poison anywhere else? I don't see this as a failure of pot
farming, but rather farming in general.

~~~
danjoc
Based on your defensive response, I take it Californians eat/smoke produce
grown with rat poison. Have you guys really thought about what you're doing?
That doesn't seem very smart, at all. I've never seen rat poison in use on a
farm around these parts. Always farm cats.

I'll be sure to check my labels more carefully at the grocery from now on. No
more California produce for me.

~~~
spraak
What a poor sample size to base your judgment on. Also, it's pretty hard to
avoid California grown produce.

> the state produces almost half of all the fruits, nuts and vegetables grown
> in the country, as well as a whopping share of the livestock and dairy. [1]

[1] [http://beta.latimes.com/food/dailydish/la-dd-calcook-
califor...](http://beta.latimes.com/food/dailydish/la-dd-calcook-california-
its-whats-for-dinner-20140312-story.html)

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sigmaprimus
"The study, published Thursday in the journal Avian Conservation and
Ecology..." I tried to find the publication but their site only shows December
and says that next issue is still in production. On another note, we use
plastic tubing to keep rodents from chewing or "girdling" young trees and
shrubs up here in Canada, it's the deer that really cause trouble.

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stretchwithme
It's time for robotic scarecrows!

Eventually, all farms will do away with pesticides and either keep out pests
or kill them without chemicals. Swat them or catch them, just like the robotic
exterminators that will live in the walls and floors of buildings. Maybe
they'll even digest them for energy.

~~~
wybiral
What about little pest-tracking laser turrets?

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tonyedgecombe
Good job it's legal then, that means it can be regulated.

~~~
criddell
If growers are willing to break the law to grow an illegal crop, what makes
you think they won't break the law to bet better yields?

Plus, in the current political climate, it feels like regulations are being
struck more frequently than they are being created. And the regulations that
are left have nobody to enforce them.

I don't think the legal status of the crop makes much difference.

~~~
cma
> If growers are willing to break the law to grow an illegal crop, what makes
> you think they won't break the law to bet better yields?

That's like expecting an illegal gambling den to follow OSHA laws on floor
mats better than a casino in Vegas with service union employees.

Growing is highly illegal, and using illegal rat poison techniques is a tiny
offence in relation to it. Whereas legally growing and illegally using rat
poison is a large offence in relation to no offense at all.

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ginko
What I seem to be missing in this article is an explanation why marijuana
farms apparently use so much rat poison in the first place.

~~~
sehugg
My understanding is that the rats chew on the plants to get moisture, since
the plants are so well irrigated compared to the relatively dry surroundings.
Rats nibble on just about anything.

~~~
macawfish
That's interesting, cause my impression was that warfarin causes vitamin K
deficiency and makes animals very thirsty. Maybe the rat poison is actual
making the rat problem worse...

~~~
macawfish
okay so i looked into this: from what I can tell, warfarin poisoning doesn't
cause dehydration directly, but it does cause severe diarrhea, vomiting and
excess bleeding. From what I can tell, all of those things constitute fluid
loss and would lead to dehydration.

maybe the pot growers should provide the rats with some water...

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brndnmtthws
My dog loves hunting rats. Why don't they just get some dogs?

~~~
megaman22
Or cats. That seems to be the age-old solution to the problem. Barn cats are
wildly efficient vermin murder machines.

~~~
brndnmtthws
Some of the rats in NYC are quite big, I'm not sure cats would go for them.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Oh our old barn cat would come out of the barn door carrying a dead rat so
large she couldn't hold it off the ground.

~~~
walshemj
I have seen a junivile cat do the same she was hardly out of kittenhood and
took a rat bigger than her.

~~~
jessaustin
Yeah, at the right age, a juvenile cat is a pound and a half of death, and it
isn't shy about showing you. I think later on in their lives cats are a bit
more secretive, especially about prey they want to eat.

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dangerboysteve
This type of story had been reported many times over the years. The only
difference is the animal in the food chain in question. Something up the food
chain is feeding on something humans want to eradicate. Horrible, yes, but
unless they ban such things this will continue. The last time I heard of
version of this was Falcon being killed by eating poisoned pigeons in urban
areas.

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Johnny555
_Although some products are being phased out, they are still available despite
widespread pressure from federal regulators, wildlife officials and
environmentalists to remove them from store shelves._

So isn't this more of a regulatory issue than an issue with pot farms in
particular? Don't farmers of other crops do the same, or is marijuana
particularly susceptible to rats?

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tritium
Why is rat poison being used as part of growing marijuana? It doesn’t strike
me as an essential pesticide to defend marijuana with?

I’ve never heard of rodents being associated with marijuana destruction. Is
marijuana one of those odd crops that attracts a different category of pests?
Like flower bulbs and deer?

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seiferteric
I don't get this story... Illegal grows have been going on for decades in
these areas. If anything, there should be fewer now because of legalization
right?

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Synaesthesia
Weed should be totally organic man.

