
Spy or whistleblower? Should Obama settle with Snowden? - adamnemecek
http://www.newsweek.com/spy-or-whistleblower-should-obama-settle-snowden-479813
======
abraca
For me, Hillary being let off changed how I view the Snowden affair. Before
Hillary was let off without penalty, I thought that exposing or acting
carelessly with classified information was a really big deal, that it
seriously put American lives at risk - AND that others were doing a good job
keeping that information under wraps, so breaches would be meaningful. Now it
seems more like a political game. Hillary put us in more danger than Snowden.
Punishing snowden is more about keeping info out of eyes of American public
(i.e., Hillary's emails still need to be redacted, even though her server was
likely hacked and info is almost certainly out there and America's ememies
have it.) I hope that Hillary skating will set a precedent that will allow
more whistleblowers to come forward to the public with information when needed
without being penalized. Perhaps whistleblowers might use the strategy of
releasing information 'unintentionally' and then use the Hillary defense.

~~~
philwelch
Hillary stored classified information on a privately owned email server.
Snowden collected a cache of classified documents and gave them to foreign
journalists. There's really no comparison between the two. One is an instance
of careless information security by someone who found the official systems
inconvenient to use and the other is deliberately disclosing classified
information.

~~~
nostromo
I find Hillary's actions to be worse, personally.

Hillary's actions very likely gave secret information to America's enemies.
Snowden's actions gave secret information to the public.

Hillary's intentions were to circumvent FOIA rules and break the law.
Snowden's intentions were to be end unconstitutional spying and uphold the
law.

~~~
ztratar
Nice propaganda.

Hillary's intentions were in no way to break the law. That was very clearly
declared false by the FBI.

~~~
stonogo
This is what intent to break the law looks like:

[http://i.imgur.com/NneHu1w.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/NneHu1w.jpg)

I don't know what the right answer is here, but I am certain that I don't find
incompetence a better excuse than malfeasance.

~~~
joering2
> This is what intent to break the law looks like:

No it is not. "nonpaper" means scrap off all sensitive data and send it
nonsecure. Comey explained what she meant in this email; long version would
be: "okay, remove all the sensitive information from this note so that you can
lawfully send it via non-secure line; then go ahead and do it".

No intent here.

~~~
geofft
This is correct, and I'm confused that HN seems to find it downvote-worthy.

------
slg
>In After Snowden, a book I recently edited, I recommended that Snowden be
tried by a federal court in Hawaii where his crime was committed; that he
plead guilty of misappropriating government property which he admits he did;
that the government in a public sentencing procedure present its claims of all
the damages resulting from Snowden’s misconduct (in camera if there is good
cause); and that Snowden be allowed to present his claims for justification
for his conduct, if not condonation of it.

>The U.S. allows no public interest defense to criminal charges, as many
countries do, but it should be considered as a possible future reform, along
with more protective whistleblower laws.

>The federal judge should then sentence Snowden according to prevailing
standards for relevant criminal sanctions. It would be a public service for
educational purposes if that proceeding were to be televised.

This seems like a perfectly reasonable approach, but I have the feeling that
neither side would be satisfied with it. People are just too polarized on
their view of him.

EDIT: And the multiple downvotes seem to prove me point. Most people here want
Snowden to walk free on a full pardon yet even Snowden admits that he broke
the law and deserves to face those charges in court. Meanwhile there are even
more people elsewhere who feel he is a traitor that deserves the death
penalty. Seemingly no one is open to compromise.

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
I'm open to compromise. If we're willing to hold everyone involved to the same
standards, I would consider if fair to have Snowden face a hearing.

However, that standard would also require numerous CIA agents to be tried and
possibly hanged in Nürnberg-like trials, and for HRC to have a real
possibility of 20-years-to-life in prison.

~~~
rangibaby
What's wrong with that? Do the crime, do the time (that's what they taught us
at school at least)

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downandout
_" The federal judge should then sentence Snowden according to prevailing
standards for relevant criminal sanctions._

The problem is that the prevailing standard in the US would be life in prison.
I imagine that eventually Snowden will wind up serving a life sentence in the
underground supermax facility in Florence, Colorado whether he comes
voluntarily or not - Russia will eventually use him as a bargaining chip in
some trade negotiation, and that will be the end of him. I think it's wrong,
but that outcome is almost inevitable at some point.

Obama will not pardon him, and I don't think either of the presumptive
presidential nominees are big Snowden fans. From the government perspective,
Snowden did a tremendous amount of damage, and he will eventually pay for that
damage with his life.

~~~
SXX
Not before Putin's regime disappear or unless Snowden himself start to become
danger. I don't believe Putin will trade him under any circumstances. More
likely you'll see Crimea traded.

Asylum for Snowden it's wasn't just foreign policy act, but more act for
Russian elites: we provided asylum for almost #1 on US list and we he is safe.
Whole regime built on rule that any loyal person in elites is safe no matter
if he's murderer, pedophile or any other kind of criminal.

Just think about Magnitsky case. It's was just a bunch of criminals who wasn't
even part of Russian elite, but Putin didn't betrayed them even after it was
clear that would cause significantly damage to whole county economy.

So giving Snowden would sent signal to elites that they and their capitals no
longer safe. It's would be deathly for regime.

~~~
rangibaby
Yes, it has been the case since Khrushchev was deposed that Russian elites
have been allowed to retire instead of being murdered. Great point.

------
alexandercrohde
I think Obama knows history will look kindly on Snowden, and thus will look
poorly on him. I think if Obama takes the 20 year view pardoning Snowden is
his best chance at saving his legacy.

~~~
argonaut
I'm pretty sure this entire affair will only be a tiny blip in Obama's
historical legacy.

Addendum: People on HN tend to vastly over-estimate the importance of privacy
to the American populace. It's a very niche issue in politics.

~~~
jkestner
One of the things I've learned from this is that our security apparatus has a
will of its own well beyond whoever's sitting in the White House. I doubt it
will be closely tied with Obama, rather just lumped into the "Post 9/11
security state" chapter.

~~~
adamnemecek
I feel like it's in the organization's DNAs. Take like J. Edgar Hoover.

------
simbalion
At the risk of sounding negative...

Only a complete idiot or crook would think Snowden's activities make him a
spy. He is a hero. He risked his personal safety to expose the _criminal_
activities of the U.S. government. There is nothing more to the story than
that.

So if you want to determine if someone is an idiot and/or crook, this question
is a great test.

~~~
sintaxi
I agree. He saw the government doing illegal shit. He raised his concerns
internally and only after they fell on deaf ears he released incriminating
documents to veteran media to decide for themselves what the public has a
right to know. Snowden is a hero.

------
sschueller
What about Manning? Snowden is not in prison and has not been tortured.

~~~
stephengillie
One of the first points the article makes is how Snowden handled his data
differently - working with reporters to curate a small fraction, not actually
making any documents public.

------
danieltillett
I think it is best for Snowden's cause that he stays in Russia looking down
the barrel of a life sentence in a supermax. If he either ends up in Colorado
or is pardoned then what the NSA was(is) doing will be quickly forgotten. Him
staying in limbo keeps the issue in the public mind.

------
jeffdavis
This balanced kind of approach would have made sense for Aaron Schwarz, who
did some minor things wrong that got blown out of proportion.

But I don't think Snowden thinks he did anything wrong. He wasn't even
reckless -- he allowed veteran reporters to handle the punblication to
mitigate unintended consequences and act as a check on his own beliefs.

So accepting punishment and allowing the US government to have the last word
doesn't make sense to me.

~~~
jlgaddis
Snowden has admitted he did wrong -- violating policy as well as breaking the
law.

~~~
staunch
He violated policy and broke the law, but that doesn't mean he's done wrong.

~~~
jlgaddis
Right, the former is what I meant. Whether something is "wrong" or not depends
upon one's beliefs, of course. I should have been more clear.

------
peterkelly
What about the crimes of the NSA - which are still ongoing?

They are violating the US constitution, the universal declaration of human
rights, and are breaking innumerable laws outside of the US, gaining
unauthorised access to systems and information.

It is the NSA, and their employees who have participated in carrying out these
crimes, who we should be discussing punishment vs. pardon.

Snowden is simply the messenger, nothing more.

------
schneems
Auto playing audio and an ad that takes up half the fold and scrolls with the
page, how did you all read this?

~~~
dredmorbius
uBlock origin and often opening straight to Reader Mode / saving straight to
Pocket.

Thanks for the heads-up though.

------
holografix
Biggest issue for me with Snowden is what he _didnt_ publicly disclose or
withheld with the intention of bargaining with the he Chinese and Russian
governments.

It's no coincidence that his escape route took him through the only nations in
the world that would not ask how high of the US told them to jump.

Were the Chinese and Russians able to obtain significant advantage from
whatever privileged info Snowden fed them? Most likely.

Just as the America would do if the situation was reversed.

What option did Snowden have though? I certainly can't fault him for basing
the seriousness of the consequences on what happened to Chelsea Manning or on
Assange's situation. Truth is if the US considers you an enemy, spy, traitor
etc you no longer have any rights and will be tortured.

