

Ask HN: How to tell quickly if someone is professional? - navanit

Professional = takes ownership and gets things done. No hand-waving, accountable, etc. I would suggest punctuality is a strong indicator, but I was wondering if HN can come up with better ones.
======
jorangreef
In my mind, a professional displays:

1\. Discretion.

2\. The quiet soft-spoken voice of reason (and incentive).

3\. The weight of wisdom.

4\. A higher sense of purpose other than being liked.

5\. A way of saying much with few words (the "genius of compression").

6\. The ability to discern between "the idea" and "the packaging".

7\. A great fear of ever saying in private what they would never say in
public.

8\. An aversion to announcing things in advance.

Rather than being "on time", a professional seeks to be "before time". Rather
than trying to "get to the point", the professional "starts with the point". A
professional is more concerned with examining and testing and adjusting
motives, than learning methods.

Above all, a professional gives value to "voice". The idea that playing a
violin well will eventually result in greater resonance, that every note
contributes to the tone of the instrument. The professional chooses to produce
true notes as much as possible, knowing that false notes played in practice
will eventually come to light in the character of the instrument. A
professional understands why orchestra conductors insist on punctuality, the
first and second and third order effects thereof. How "bottomless wonders
spring from simple rules... repeated without end." - Benoit Mandelbrot.

Ask a professional why they chose to take a particular course of action, and
they will be able to tell you "why". Professionals are rational, and their
rationality is proactively forthcoming. Professionals phrase things in the
positive.

Most of these characteristics seem to come down to "words" and "voice" and
"reasons".

~~~
wccrawford
Careful, you just described me, and my bosses characterized me as 'abrupt' for
years, and they valued 'people skills' more than my ability to keep their
software and servers running. (Yes, both.) We survived it, but I'm not sure
they would have if they'd gotten their 'people skills' person instead of me.

That's not to say I haven't improved in that department over the years, but I
still start conversations with the meat instead of 'How was your vacation?'
(Yeah, I got scolded for that once.) It's not even that I didn't care about
their vacation, it's that I had very important work matters to deal with (I
was at work!) and they come first.

~~~
Dylanlacey
I've had similar problems before, where a focus on fixing things was derided
because it wasn't "Friendly". I've actually noticed a correlation between how
much people value superficial interactions, and how valuable that person is
compared to others in their field.

That is, if a manager is more concerned with "Hi, how are you"'s then "The
server is literally on fire, I need to get into the server room to put it
out", they are much more likely to be incompetant then the average manager,
and know it, which is why they're trying to buff their 'soft' skills.

This only applies to superficial reactions, not stuff like "When you attack
people as your opening sentence, it makes them defensive" style stuff. If it
actually matters, it's not what I'm talking about.

------
starpilot
Doesn't gossip, unless it's harmless teasing. Does not do anything to spite
another colleague, only interested in getting things done. Doesn't let his ego
get in the way. If his proposal is passed for another team members, he still
pitches in as much as ever. Likewise, he doesn't walk all over people who gave
losing ideas, and listens to them as much as he would have. Moves discussions
along to make _decisions_ , understands that conversations are _not_
productive unless something new is decided upon. He should move like a shark,
but not in an evil way: keep swimming, or sink.

~~~
chairface
That seems to be more of a complete description of being professional than an
indicator - I presume the OP is looking for things that indicate a person will
do these things before they actually do them.

------
M1573RMU74710N
It's not possible.

No matter how professional someone appears there's always a chance they're a
complete flake in reality.

The best you can do is determine quickly that someone is _not_ a professional,
and the basis for that is going to have to be a variety of factors.

There's no one thing that will serve as an accurate litmus test all around.

Punctuality is a good start, but I wouldn't put too much stock in it.
Personally, I think it's way over-rated.

For something like an interview, punctuality is important as a sign of respect
and for practical reasons...

If you interview someone, you should consider punctuality but also bear in
mind that crap happens. I once had an interview and I got stuck in the subway,
where there are no phone signals.

Who's to say if you are writing off a brilliant worker due to bad luck.

In terms of normal punctuality for work, I think it's vastly over-rated.

Places generally expect you to be slightly early for work, so I don't see
anything wrong with the assumption that you will sometimes be a little late.
As long as everyone gets to work around the same time, everyone does their
work,everyone works their hours, and people are on time for the truly
important stuff....I don't see the problem with even regular "lateness".

Anyway. I digress...

If anything I think how they are dressed is a better indication than
punctuality, but that also has problems.

You have to look at a lot of things...I would worry less about whether they
are a fit for some hypothetical objective mold of "professional" and worry
more about how they fit with what _you_ think is important, and how they fit
with _your_ culture.

All that matters to me is competence, work ethic, and how they fit in with the
group....I'll take that over some nebulous concept of "professionalism" any
day.

------
jrockway
I doubt punctuality is a strong indicator of anything other than how reliable
the public transportation system is.

~~~
usrusrusr
No. Public transport might be unreliable, but if unreliable it is unreliable
it is so in a _regular_ way.

If you value others time, you can use that regularity and be punctual in spite
of unreliable, traffic, public trsnaport etc.

~~~
jrockway
The problem is that I value my own time more than I value other people's time.

~~~
usrusrusr
So do I but,

1\. I carry a Kindle with me. I read a lot and I can do it as well waiting in
a office/lounge/Airport as at my bed.

2\. I don't value my time more than collective time of four people waiting for
me to start a meeting/meetup/lunch.

~~~
fapi1974
This reminds me of an idea I had for a product: place value on your and your
colleagues time by creating a market for it. The market runs in the
calendaring application - you are allocated a certain amount of everyone's
time to take for meetings. If you want or need more than your allocation, you
have to trade for it. That way you are forced to invite only the people you
really need, it quickly becomes obvious whose time is most important, the
overall amount of time spent in meetings is limited, and people become
cognizant of the "value" of others' time. It could be built as an outlook
plugin, even.

~~~
drewp
no link handy, but a similar thing was tried with email before. You had to
offer points for someone to read your mail, and readers would natutally read
the highest-paying emails first. The results sounded cool, similar to what you
were predicting-- everyone got more conservative with others' email-redaing
time. With the email version, you "traded points" by reading (or replying? I
forget) your mail.

I'd love to try your calendar version!

------
zackola
I like asking people when the last time they've done irreparable harm to data
was. (deleting a database table, formatting something they shouldn't have,
etc...) Those who say never are liars. Those who have agony in their faces as
they answer but can't tell me what they've done to prevent the situation from
occurring in the future or those who don't care are pretty unprofessional.
Those who regale us with heroic stories of accepting the blame for their
mistakes, fixing it in the best way possible and putting safeguards in place
to minimize the possibility of it occurring again are pros in my book.

~~~
stcredzero
I've accidentally truncated a database table in a dev environment, bringing
all sorts of testing and development to a halt and making my manger's life
miserable for a few days. (Due to some really bad menu design in an admin
tool. Instead of a right-click for "Renaming" a column, there should have been
an indication that a table truncate would be happening in there somewhere.)

I would never have agony in my face about it, perhaps because the event wasn't
"irreparable." The database was just reloaded from production. My first answer
to your question would be "never" because the event really wasn't
consequential. In fact, I'd question just how "professionally" run an
organization is if a data deletion event is of dire consequence. Anything
important should be backed up and easily restorable.

Some decades back, someone did a study of companies that had some disaster
happen. (Fire, flood, etc...) Of the ones that lost their data, only something
like 3% of them survived the next year. Digital data is the most easily backed
up corporate asset and probably the most important.

(To keep it from happening again, I'd use a different tool entirely, if given
a choice. In that case, I wasn't!)

~~~
zackola
A very professional answer! You'd be surprised at the number of organizations
and individuals that don't have some sort of backup solution in place, so the
question will also filter out those. Even if you have backups or the data
isn't 'irreparably' lost I'd imagine you agonized a bit from causing your
coworkers a few days of pain, or if you need to restore from backups, perhaps
a few hours of downtime? I guess I should change my question from using the
word irreparably.

------
sp4rki
By your definition of professional I don't understand why you want
punctuality. Three months into the last job I had, I told the company: "I'm
more productive when I'm more productive. I'm not going to abuse off course,
but I'm not getting here at 8am sharp every day." They said I could come at
any time I wanted, or telecommute if I wanted, as long as I got things done.
One time I spent 4 days in the office only surfacing from my desk for food and
smokes because someone screwed a deadline. I made 2 weeks wort of work on
three days. I got a bonus, an all paid weekend retreat, and they payed me back
the amount of redbull and coffee I had.

Why do you care if someone is in through the door of the office at 9am or at
12pm as long as their work doesn't suffer from it? In the case of meetings and
the such I do understand the need to have everyone be punctual though, and
that should be stated before hand. If you have a meeting, be there on time, if
nothing time sensitive is on the calendar, then let people do what they find
more productive, within reason off course.

~~~
jorangreef
If you ever played in an orchestra with a great conductor, you would
understand why things like punctuality are important.

In fact, it doesn't matter what the discipline is whether it be punctuality or
something else, but the fact that discipline is valued. You might see these
things in and of themselves as pointless (and you'd be right), but you'd be
ignoring the 2nd and 3rd order effects.

~~~
Dylanlacey
I don't argue that punctuality is unimportant, but I think it's lauded as a
virtue far more often then it deserves. It's only a virtue if being late has a
negative impact beyond "The department looks empty and the boss' boss judges".

Being late to a scheduled meeting is unprofessional. Turning up at 9 instead
of 8 because there's really no impact if you do so? Not unprofessional.
Expecting someone to turn up at 8 because "I said so"? TOTALLY unprofessional,
and a jerky thing to do.

~~~
jorangreef
The point is not that punctuality is a virtue, but that a professional is
capable of adhering to certain agreed disciplines, regardless of how
important, or virtuous they may or may not be. A professional does not make
the mistake of judging these activities for their intrinsic value, but sees
them as an opportunity to develop discipline, which is useful and valuable for
more important activities.

For examples see: the military, professional orchestras, rowing eights, ivy
league traditions, and even children keeping piggy banks.

~~~
Dylanlacey
While I agree that a professional is capable of adhering to certain agreed
disciplines, I also think that discipline is a sparing resource and spending
it on showing up at a set time for no other reason then being "professional"
is a waste of that resource.

------
coffee
My biggest indicator has always been, "do they do what they say they'll do?"

If they want to meet for coffee and offer to buy you that coffee in exchange
for your time, do they do this without you prompting them? If you end up
buying your own coffee, and they simply forgot, do they acknowledge it?

If they say they will email/phone you by a certain time, do they do this? If
not, and they eventually do get to you, do they acknowledge/apologize for not
keeping their word?

For me, to _quickly_ find out, it always come down to these little things.
Sure, people forget to call/email/buy coffee all the time, that's acceptable.
But, do they take accountability for that slip? Do they take responsibility
for it without you prompting them?

If the little things are handled professionally, I've never had an experience
(yet) where the big things aren't...

~~~
japherwocky
Definitely this, for me. Does someone talk about doing things or do things?

Also wanted to say: talking about meeting for coffee went delightfully meta
there, considering your username.

------
skullsplitter
One of my personal metrics for low resolution professionalism judgement is
spin off of the classic "wtf's/min" standard for judging code quality.

My own unit is "Yes's/min". I find that when I'm explaining something to an
individual who responds with too many "Yes's/min", that individual is usually
(of course not always) not appreciating the nuances of the topic being
discussed. Having an alarmingly high amount of certainty around a new or just
introduced topic, I find, usually implies a lack of professionalism.

~~~
Kaizyn
Your heuristic will fail you when you are dealing with people who are smarter
than you are. It is awfully hard to gauge what topics are actually new to
someone during a discussion unless you ask them or they outright tell you.

~~~
skullsplitter
Yep, thats why I only use it as a low-res heuristic. Theres no real substitute
for spending time with and individual and really getting to know them.

------
erikstarck
Seth Godin has a good point about professionalism. Being professional is doing
the same thing and getting the same result over and over.

These days more often than not this is not what you're looking for. You're
looking for the fresh angle, the different point of view, the purple cow.

You're looking for passion. For love. These are two words you seldom see
together with professionalism.

EDIT: the word "amateur" has the same roots as "amore" and literally means
"love what you do".

~~~
japherwocky
Just to quibble a bit.. really, if you're looking to hire a professional
contractor, you don't want fresh or creative. You want someone who can deliver
to a spec on time and on budget.

A joke among architects is to call plumbers|electricians|framers "creative".
You don't want purple cow plumbing, and that goes for a lot of professions. ;)

~~~
TeMPOraL
With all respect to people who do them, I think that those kinds of
proffessions should be ultimately done by machines and technology. People are
good at creativity and generating new ideas; machines are good at repetition
and precision.

------
techbio
This is a valuable question, but the replies are going awry of what draws me
to the question. What if all you have to go on is a 'reply-to' email and their
first and last name?

Not a complete list, but fishing for suggestions:

Context--they sent you a business related email, and appear roughly
'professional' to you, but you want to make sure.

Their message/website/page/example project. You be the judge.

Do they reply to their contact form?

Is their contact information available and current?

LinkedIn, github, any other free, populous site membership--what is their
public face?

~~~
Kaizyn
Being part of the social web is not an indicator of professionalism. However,
you may learn about someone's professionalism based on what they have online
if they participate. Keep in mind many good professionals have life outside of
their work and don't have the time or interest in open source projects or
giving free advice on sites like stack overflow.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
> _Being part of the social web is not an indicator of professionalism._

Not at all?

I'm not saying you need to be tweeting what you had for lunch or anything but
having some presence on the social web is probably a good indicator in a broad
swathe of fields. For example if I'm after a graphic designer and they're on
LinkedIn|Facebook|Twitter or somesuch then it's an indicator that they're
clued in with modern advertising, likely to have their finger more on the
pulse, likely to be happy corresponding via the 'net, etc..

~~~
varjag
No, not at all. Not any more than having a phone number or email address.
Maybe even less.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I'm fascinated that people on HN find that taking part in online social
networks (like HN) is an anti-indicator of professionalism (in _all_ fields).

------
pmorici
Depends on what you mean by "punctuality" if you mean arriving at work at the
same time every day then I would say you are dead wrong. If on the other hand
you mean being respectful of others time and not being late for explicitly
scheduled events or calling ahead if you will be, then that may be true.

------
edw519
Demonstrated Performance

(the only indicator that really matters)

~~~
techbio
Anybody notice that OP asked "How to tell quickly...?"

~~~
tomjen3
Shouldn't take more than a couple minutes to look up online - or to call
somebody who knew and have worked with that person before.

~~~
lsc
eh, I think that following references rarely results in an accurate picture,
especially following up on references that the applicant gives you.

Have you _ever_ given a bad reference? I've given lots of references, and I've
checked lots of references. I've never given a negative reference, and I've
never gotten a negative reference when I checked someone else.

This is for two reasons. 1. when the applicant lists references, s/he is going
to list people who think positively of him or her, and 2. if some random guy
calls up and asks for a reference for someone who used to work for you, you
have a relationship with your ex-employee. You have no relationship with this
new company. You have nothing to gain (and possibly significant liabilities)
from handing out a negative reference.

~~~
anthonyb
If you do some research and cold-call their previous employers/clients, you'll
usually find out if the relationship was a negative experience for them. If
you get a couple of these, and they've come to that conclusion independently,
then you have your answer.

~~~
lsc
that solves the first problem (the applicant only choosing to give you the
contact info of people who are likely to give them positive marks) but it
doesn't help with the second issue.

I don't see any case where it's in the best interest of anyone to say negative
things about a past employee. And I don't think you can count all "company
policy is that we simply confirm they worked here" messages as negative,
because sometimes that really is company policy.

When asked for a reference, have you ever said anything negative about a past
employee or co-worker? Have you ever heard anything negative about someone you
were considering hiring after cold calling a previous employer?

~~~
anthonyb
I haven't, but I know quite a few people who have checked references and
gotten a negative response - in one case derisive laughter followed by an
incredulous "Really? They put me as a reference?". Obviously it depends on
whether it's a big shop where you'll get HR stonewalled, or a smaller place
where you'll have the owner or a coworker.

------
edge17
You can often tell more about a person by their questions than by their
answers

------
gte910h
Professionalism is the practice of getting things done in a respectful manner.
That's going to be hard to detect with an indicator.

------
LeBlanc
I assume this is going to be done in an interview.

One thing you could try is to see how the person handles constructive
criticism. Try to get them engaged in a discussion about what they did wrong
and how they could do better in the future. Pick something you have actual
knowledge of so you can better tell if they are BSing you.

This can be difficult to do in an interview because you often don't know
anything about the person. However, even if you have them pick an example of a
screw-up from their past, you should be able to get a general sense of whether
or not they try to be accountable for their actions. A bad sign would be if
they pick an example where they didn't actually screw up or explain their
failure as completely out of their control.

------
lsc
first, I think "professional" is too broad a brush to evaluate at once, even
using your definition of professional.

For instance, I'm very good about taking ownership and being accountable. I'm,
uh, somewhat less good at actually getting things done on time. I mean, I
won't make stupid excuses or try to shift blame, but I am quite often late on
actually getting the damn thing done because of my own personal failings, so
if you just measured a willingness to accept responsibly when accepting
responsibility is unpleasant, you'd think higher of me than you ought.

"what is the most costly (to your employer) mistake of your career?" is a good
interview question to probe the willingness to take responsibility. I know
I've made some expensive mistakes, some of my worst were simply because I
typed the wrong thing out of fatigue or inattention. (as I have grown older, I
think one of the most important things I've learned is how to tell when I am
likely to make a mistake, and when to log out.)

I'd argue that a person who claims not to have made expensive mistakes is
likely the type to dodge responsibility. (this is eminently true in the ops
world. I imagine it's true elsewhere, but I've got a lot less room to speak.)

You could also give them a hypothetical where, say, they could have prevented
a mistake but it wasn't something they actively caused. Then ask them if it
was their responsibility. "If you hired a guy who did something stupid that
cost us a lot of money, is it your fault or his fault?" I'd never hire anyone
for management who thought it was the hiree's fault.

showing up on time, in my experience has nothing to do with a willingness to
take responsibility when something goes wrong.

As for "gets things done" eh, I'm not the right man to ask about that. When
you figure out a better answer than "hire them as a contractor and see" let me
know.

------
spython
For me, a designer is professional if he tells me "if you add one more thing
in the menu, it won't work" or "remove that 'more' link after each paragraph"
instead of "you should really use another tone of blue" or "I don't like the
font you are using". I have no idea about programming, but I guess a
professional in that field would be arguing about the software architecture,
instead of what to use - php or ruby.

So generally, professionals are people who help you achieve whatever goal you
have, instead of arguing what tools to use.

------
kingsidharth
Ships!

------
gallerytungsten
Check out their track record. Observe them, listen to them. Do they give you a
vibe of understated competence and confidence? Or do they relentlessly hype
themselves and speak in vague buzzwords? Ask questions, dig deep. "Drill down"
into their area of alleged expertise. Do they answer your questions easily and
with insight? Or do they engage in an avoidance strategy? Keep poking like
this, the answer will become obvious.

------
csomar
"Those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know"

Be careful of those who talks a lot trying to prove you that they are
professionals. Professionals are generally in demand, they should be busy
doing work, they don't try to higher their status because they are already
rewarded. Those who sucks try to trap you with words.

Not an indicator for professionals but should be helpful to filter some.

------
lhnz
I don't know if I agree with the word professional. It does signal things
like: wearing a suit, talking the talk, playing politics well, turning up on
time, etc...

The only things that are important to me are that the person is honest, a
hard-worker, intelligent, a clear communicator and has common sense.

------
sdizdar
Ask what he/she did wrong in his/her life and things at which he/she failed.

Don't be fooled with "quiet soft-spoken voice of reason" and other outside
behavioral decoration. These things can be learned.

School where I learned this: odesk.com.

------
2plus2equals5
my take:

anyone who does things with the wisdom of an 80-year-old sailor, the
efficiency of a 45-year old BMW factory worker, and the enthusiasm of a
3-year-old with finger paint

------
superk
If it's a superficial analysis (ie interview), then punctuality, dress and
preparation on their part (investigation prior to the meeting) is valid. If
they haven't inquired about the dress code, then they should assume it's
formal. If you have a minute to do a slightly deeper analysis then Google is
your friend: how do they present themselves on social networks, do they have a
blog, have they commented in forums (do they troll) have they posted code
(usually a goldmine). If the profession is technological and they have _no_
web presence whatsoever, that's usually a red flag in itself.

------
jonsen
Software Engineering Code of Ethics and Professional Practice:

<http://www.acm.org/about/se-code>

------
blender
They are comfortable answering: "I don't know."

Cheers

------
techbio
Takes one to know one.

------
vlisivka
I know very quick method: Ask "why?" repeatedly.

------
atirip
Put him in uncomfortable situation and tell him to do something you expect he
really loathes, something what just sometimes "needs to be done, no matter
what". If he balks or talks too much, he's not a professional. Example? Give
photographer a video camera and say you have an vision of some cheesy shot
(look at clientsfromhell.net for ideas) and see what get's delivered.

~~~
RockyMcNuts
I'm not sure who is more of a professional, the web developer who gives the
client their requested BLINK tags and Comic Sans, or the one who tries to
dissuade the client and avoids work from similar clients.

~~~
duck
Easy answer - one who tries to dissuade the client. A professional will not
always do what is asked, but that doesn't mean they don't do what is right.

~~~
stcredzero
There are two senses of the word "professional" here. Some people are
professional like doctors or engineers. They will not always do exactly what
is asked of them, because there are real-world consequences. Sometimes they
will educate the client instead. Some people are "professional" like
prostitutes. They will pretty much do anything enthusiastically, so long as
they are paid.

More value is created by the first sense of the word, IMO.

