
In a society obsessed with success, how do we come to terms with failure? - plg
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/michelle-kaeser-failure-is-golden-too/article37828663/
======
lcc
As another washed-up former athlete (one of my old teammates will be playing
in PyeongChang any day now), what resonated most with me was how the author
grappled with her self-identity after quitting. It is easy to define yourself
when you have a concrete goal and can pour all your time, energy, heart and
soul into it. And it is devastating when you lose it.

It's even harder to redefine yourself when you used to be _good_ at whatever
it was you lost, because you know just how much time and effort it took to get
there. It can seem impossible to achieve the same level of mastery of anything
else.

It's been almost 5 years since I quit and, while I've picked up new hobbies
that I enjoy, I still haven't found anything that inspires the passion I used
to have for my sport.

~~~
mjfl
I spent a good 10 years of my life in a legitimate attempt to become an NFL
player. If you saw me, you would have said it was a long shot - of course it
was - but I didn't let any of this get to me and I worked extremely hard to
get to that goal. But I failed. I started for 3 years on my D3 college
football team but at the end of my senior season I was still laughably far
from NFL caliber. When I put my pads away for the last time it was
devastatingly clear that I had completely wasted on average 20-30 hours every
week for the past 10 years of my life, hours I could have spent making friends
and/or becoming a normal person.

You know what I did? I moved on, fast. And that is the solution to failure -
move on quickly. And I did move on, and have found success after.

~~~
sage76
I consider you lucky, you had a big goal and you went all out to try and get
there. There has to be some satisfaction in having put it all out on the line.
Most people live fairly mundane lives, directionless and sans ambition.

I wish I had that kind of singular focus on something when I was 10.
Considering where I was born, I had little opportunity to pursue
sports/music/whatever at a young age, my society pushes kids to become
bookworms. I feel I greatly missed out.

> hours I could have spent making friends and/or becoming a normal person.

It's overrated, and you can have normality when you're old.

~~~
gkya
"Normality" is really very overrated indeed. I learnt rather late that one had
to come to terms with his particularities and that "normal" was not that good
of a thing to be; realisations before which I was suffering in agony because I
wasn't "normal". Conforming to the society without compromising oneself is
okay, trying to fix defects one's own personality is okay, but all these are
possible without becoming "normal", which implies mediocrity, ordinariness.

------
Intrepidy
Achilles willingly left Greece, knowing he would die in Troy, so that he could
be known as the greatest warrior in history. Alexander the Great supposedly
broke down and cried when he felt he had nobody left to overcome. Julius
Caesar in turn, after subduing all of Gaul, wept at the feet of Alexander's
statue some 200 years later, lamenting that at the age of 38, he had
accomplished nothing compared to Alexander. And there are plenty of such
examples in non-Western societies where the losers didn't just get a silver
medal; but were killed. This story is as old as humanity itself and just as
ubiquitous. I think the fashionable, progressive approach to blaming society
is wrong in this case. Seeking greatness over peaceful mediocrity may simply
be a character 'flaw' in mankind. As such, failure has become one of our
signature moves.

~~~
Spooky23
People like this are usually driven by something missing within. Alexander
understood this when he met Diogenes, and went to conquer the earth rather
than deal with that.

There’s a reason pride is a sin in the Christian tradition. There’s a lesson
to be reflect upon in the story of Alexander and Caesar... Ceasar’s conquest
of Gaul was complete and epic. He slaughtered and enslaved a statistically
significant proportion of the human race. He became rich beyond comprehension
and built a legacy admired millennia later. Yet he died stabbed in the back by
his friend, still unsatisfied.

~~~
nairboon
What exactly was Alexander missing?

~~~
nostrademons
Peace.

------
petra
>> Because who I'd be was just another ordinary, mediocre 12-year old girl. I
rubbed at the calluses on my hands, sat in front of the TV and felt terrified
that I'd never again be good at something. Nothing is scarier than that.

To some extent, this is common in th west. But why is this so important to not
be ordinary ? Why isn't it good enough to be good at something at your friends
group, family, etc ?

~~~
VLM
Ordinary is no longer economically survivable.

~~~
verylittlemeat
It comes down to economic expectations.

I live below the poverty line in the United States and my life is great. My
health insurance is 100% free and probably the best in the world. I get
financial aid from different government sources that give me a comfortable
simple life.

The people who feel they need to own cars or houses and have children struggle
to meet their personal expectations. Their struggle and wealth subsidies my
lifestyle.

I don't consider wealthy people my enemy or "rich fools." Instead I see them
as people who psychologically for one reason or another have certain
expectations about what life is supposed to be. They wouldn't want my life for
free and I wouldn't want their life at a cost. Does my lifestyle carry a
social stigma? Of course. But do I really care what someone else thinks when
I'm basically allowed to live in a first world country for free? Not even a
little bit.

To me this is as fair as you can probably get in an economic system.

~~~
dominotw
what about traveling and seeing the world.

~~~
verylittlemeat
Do you value you that? Then live your life in accordance with achieving that
goal. There are lots of ways to see the world, from being a vagrant to a CEO
who travels business class to the finest hotels.

I don't value travel enough to change my lifestyle so I wont work toward that
end but if you do then you should. I say this with zero judgment or passive
aggressive intention.

------
sethammons
TL;DR is the author spent years and years of dedicated effort as a gymnast and
quit and did not make it to the Olympics. Describes herself as a failure as a
gymnast instead of having failed (noun vs verb). And ends the piece with the
suggestion that maybe we should all just settle with the knowledge that we
will not achieve our dreams.

Wow. Granted I read it quickly and maybe missed something. I take a different
view. While the goal/dream is admirable, it is the journey that counts. I've
been successful in areas, failures in some more, and somewhere in between on
others. I've learned and I've grown in each. I've learned more in my failures
than in my successes and they helped shape me into who I am. I feel that if
you make the best choice you can given the information you have, you've
nothing to regret. Strive to be better. Be grateful for what you have. Learn
from mistakes. Sometime you'll lose so hard that it is earth shattering. The
goal is to be able to pick up the pieces, and keep moving. The most important
step you can take is not the first, but the next.

~~~
ataturk
First world problems!

I competed in two different Olympic sports and although I attended the Junior
Olympics for one of the (big whoop, right?) and didn't place, I never once
thought I was a loser--you just look at the competition and how a mere few
seconds determines the winner versus going home with nothing. People have peak
days, others are just a tiny bit off. What I realized is that greatness has a
component of luck to it. I figured I was lucky to be able to compete there at
all. There are letdowns for sure, but you're not competing with others as much
as you are competing with yourself.

ETA--Having attended the Olympic Training Center around age 16, I can't tell
you how depressing it was to see 20 and 30-something athletes living in the
dorms there, striving for their moment of glory while everyone else was out
having fun, working, starting families, etc. I look back at that as the moment
I made a very conscious choice to focus on having a career. Olympic sports
aren't pro sports, you aren't getting endorsement deals unless you're in one
of the "popular" sports like swimming or downhill skiing.

~~~
astura
>I can't tell you how depressing it was to see 20 and 30-something athletes
living in the dorms there, striving for their moment of glory while everyone
else was out having fun, working, starting families, etc.

It might be depressing to YOU because it's not what you'd like for yourself
but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's depressing for the people living
it, after all, it's what they have chosen. Not everyone is exactly like you
and wants the same things in life. I see people living their lives in all
sorts of ways I would consider absolutely awful and depressing, but I don't
project my values and goals on them.

------
flyinglizard
“For most of us, our dreams exceed our limitations, and our ambitions lie far
beyond our capabilities“

Not from my experience, no. Most people I know - the vast majority - don’t
even try chasing the dreams they have. They are not failing because they’re
not even in the game. Most of them do not have ambitions beyond those one
degree apart from biological sustenance; they just are.

~~~
mcguire
I could tell you a story about someone who had dreams and goals and plans.

And then he discovered that the world is not a kind place; it puts down
immovable barriers against those plans. He has a friend who says, "anything
good that happened was because I beat my head against a stone wall until I
succeeded;" not this guy---anything good that happens seems basically pure
luck, head banging or no head banging.

He discovered that those goals he did work for and achieve suddenly tasted
like sand. And then one day he realized that the reason he would never achieve
any of those great dreams was because the will to work for them had been
beaten out.

Yeah, I could tell you a story. But I won't.

~~~
ahussain
Are there any writers who dive into this a subject area?

------
keenmaster
There are so many domains where you can achieve success or mastery so I just
don’t buy the central message here. I think most people can be very successful
in multiple domains, it’s just a matter of finding them and working hard
enough. Gymnastics is an unfortunate thing to fail at since it’s a big
commitment. Maybe that’s why the author was rendered cynical/defeated.

~~~
cryptica
Pick any given field these days and you'll immediately be competing with
millions of other talented people. Some of them have been doing it since they
were children.

There aren't many careers that you can change into and succeed. It's very rare
nowadays and it's getter rarer because capital is becoming increasingly
concentrated and knowledge is becoming increasingly specialised. The playing
field is global now. Even if you want to do something as mundane as open a
local retail outlet, now you have to compete with giants like Amazon who use
profits from their monopolies in other industries to bleed you dry.

The most important financial decision you can make in life is having the right
parents. Second is marrying the right person.

What you call cynicism is actually realism. You're the optimist. The fact that
you have this world view suggests that either you were born into a well-off
family or you got very lucky at some point in your life.

In the same way that one wrong move can kill you in a second, it only takes a
single stroke of luck to set you on a lifelong winning streak...
Unfortunately, bad luck is the norm for most people.

While it's true that the harder you work, the luckier you get, when your luck
starts in the negatives, it can take a lifetime just to bring it to 0.

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
What society isn’t obsessed with success? No one wants to fail in hunting,
farming, business or anything else.

~~~
dvanduzer
Some societies seem to focus more on individual success than community
survival.

I want to live in a society that is obsessed with creating a future where
every member can thrive. Canada seems to be working a little harder at this
than the United States, but both countries still have frontier culture heavily
baked in.

~~~
ajeet_dhaliwal
I want to live in a society where individual success is the obsession above
all else. Society and community is made up of individuals after all.

~~~
saeranv
This seems a bit simplistic, or I'm not understanding your comment. It is
trivial to prove that you have to sometimes deprioritize an individual's
success in order to ensure group success.

For example, it is beneficial to tax rich individuals to ensure the community
has access to a social security safety net. Technically this penalizes a rich
individual's success, however it is a critical factor in the success of the
group.

------
nimbius
ive always based success on quality of life. For example, I once took the RHCE
and failed by just four points. Looking at the cost of the exam at around
$400, I decided to forego a retake as a hundred dollars per point seemed
silly. What did it mean to me, and my definition of success, to be able to
regurgitate old Apache ACL's on command? Not much, seeing as Nginx is of a
higher priority to me.

In the end I relegated the experience to that of a rat race. Being told you've
failed the RHCE hurts but in no way does it mean you should settle with never
achieving your dreams. Sometimes you've got to understand who sets the terms
and definitions, and make adjustments as necessary. Letting others decide the
objectives of success is tacitly hoping their outcomes and objectives for that
often very personal success are as altruistic and self serving as yours. At
some point, everything from Body Spray to luxury sedans set this bar in a
predatory manner. Theres no reason to think the Olympics and private
corporations in general wont at some point do this as well.

~~~
ghaff
In some cases, the certifications associated with some score on a test do
matter. It's one thing to pursue a certification, whether some IT certificate
or passing the bar, for the learning experience and personal satisfaction. In
those cases, it may well indeed make sense to conclude that you came close
enough and move onto the next thing.

But if you've spent 3 years in law school and really want to become a lawyer,
it may well make sense to study harder and try to pass the bar the next time--
especially if you didn't fail by much. (Don't actually know how much feedback
if you get if you fail.)

------
klum
From the article, you get the clear impression that she had a complicated
relationship with the sport: she was passionate about it, but afraid of it as
well.

I can't help but wonder if she would have gotten closer to her goals if she
had been able to see things in a less scary light -- by being taught and
supported in a more positive way, or something like that. I guess it's down to
who you are as a person, but attitudes can be developed in different ways.

I wonder if there is a distinction between top performers and mere mortals
here -- that the top performers manage to find the love for what they are
doing even under intense pressure? And, in that case, which way the causality
goes...

------
everdev
Competition is designed to have roles succeed, not people. In business or
sport, we want the best to succeed. In that sense competition is a success as
long as it's fair. The people or businesses in the competition are essentially
replaceable.

~~~
mathgeek
> In business or sport, we want the best to succeed.

This is inaccurate, or at least overly generalized. In both business and
sport, many want those who contribute to the health of the field to succeed.
Competition is good and drives innovation, whether that's technology or how to
hit a baseball consistently.

------
currymj
i thought the best part of the article was towards the end, where she talks
about all the different ways that gymnasts have of redefining success.

i think it may be healthy to avoid doing that. like, don't say "well, my
company failed, but the important thing is I tried unlike all those losers
stuck in 9-5 jobs". or "i didn't get a tenure-track job but really, this job
in industry is great and the important thing is my transferable research
skills".

you still failed, and it's much more dignified to live with it.

------
vladmk
this is a very fluffy peace. First what is success? In what measure? Second
"How do we come to terms with failure?" What failure? Whose failure? Everyone
has their own, failure isn't a problem that haunts everyone, failure is
however someone defines it. My failure isn't your failure.

------
wu-ikkyu
By not idolizing/worshipping arbitrary measures of success (money, popularity)
in the first place

------
totalZero
I don't ever want to come to terms with failure. I just want to turn away from
it and be so busy that I don't have time to sort it out. Acceptance of failure
feels like a form of surrender.

------
paulsutter
Competition is for losers

"Always prioritize the substance of what you're doing. Don't get caught up in
the status, the prestige games. They're endlessly dazzling, and they're always
endlessly disappointing” -Peter Thiel

~~~
dvtv75
Didn't he just use his status and prestige to buy his way into New Zealand
citizenship? (This is a rhetorical question, the answer is "It would seem
so.")

~~~
seem_2211
While Thiel definitely charmed his way into a NZ Citizenship (amazing piece
here by the way: [http://www.nzherald.co.nz/indepth/national/how-peter-
thiel-g...](http://www.nzherald.co.nz/indepth/national/how-peter-thiel-got-
new-zealand-citizenship/)), I always read his comment more as advice to avoid
the traditional Management Consulting / Finance / Law career paths that a lot
of Ivy League / Stanford / elite school students end up taking, where they
work 70+ hours every week, generally competing for a 5% chance to become a
partner 15 years down the track. The payoff isn't great. But the prestige of
working at McKinsey / Goldman / Cravath is.

------
fullshark
Interesting title but this is just an excuse for a long form autobiographical
blogpost.

------
shams93
You look at the statistics and basically you're largely already born wealthy
or you are in poverty especially in California. If you look at social mobility
in California it's almost as bad as medieval Europe. The system that enabled
hard work to be rewarded is gone. The creative professions that used to be a
vehicle for persona wealth are gone. We are living in an era of corporate
feudalism where you're either born on top or born to fail but the only
question that is relevant today is "who's your daddy?"

~~~
magic_beans
This comment is completely irrelevant to the article.

~~~
Applejinx
On the contrary, it's got a great deal to do with success and failure, and
defines the only reason why such an article is important.

If we can't disrupt success… 'move fast and break' success… we're very close
to societal collapse.

I turned a ten-year software business into a Patreon that gives away free
software and is beginning to make it open source, and I feel I'm doing some
tangible things to disrupt 'success'. Our sense of value has to be founded on
different ground.

