
How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019) - pilsner
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/31/690363402/how-the-cia-overthrew-irans-democracy-in-four-days
======
thdrdt
Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and
Russia because they are the 'bad guys'.

Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain
power over dead people. It's sad but true.

Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the
CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and
democracy is the way to go?

I think it would be best if we look at people in other countries without
judgement and try to understand their point of view. Leaders are to blame but
most of the people in this world are just living their life.

~~~
missosoup
China is harassing all of its coastal neighbours and trying to politically
infiltrate just about every major country on the face of the earth.

Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre
rattling.

They don't really fit the same profile as Iran currently does.

Feel free to walk me through the 'good guy' point of view of the people who
invaded my home country, shot down a passenger plane, and got away with
complete impunity.

There are no good or bad guys. All the superpwers are dicks, that's how they
got to being superpwers.

~~~
29athrowaway
> Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and
> sabre rattling.

In the specific case of Crimea, it's much more complicated than that. It is an
invasion, but there's much more about it than just "Russia invading
neighbors", you're oversimplifying things.

Russia invaded the Crimean Oblast within Ukraine, rather than all of Ukraine.

In the Soviet Union, Crimea was an Oblast of the Russian SFSR. First secretary
Nikita Khrushchev, who was of Ukranian origin, transferred the governance of
the Crimean oblast from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954 as a
"symbolic gesture".

But after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, many Russians (an ethnic
majority inside Crimea) were not satisfied with the resulting situation.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea)

[https://www.britannica.com/place/Crimea/History](https://www.britannica.com/place/Crimea/History)

~~~
Const-me
> Russia is occupying the Crimean Oblast within Ukraine

Russia also occupying parts of Donetsk and Luhansk.

> many Russians were not satisfied with the resulting situation, including
> Russians living in Crimea

Pre-war sociology shows 38% of Crimean residents wanted to join Russia, that
number declining over time: [https://www.km.ru/world/2012/09/14/polozhenie-
russkoyazychno...](https://www.km.ru/world/2012/09/14/polozhenie-
russkoyazychnogo-naseleniya-ukrainy/692296-rossiya-teryaet-krym) (Russian).
38% is indeed many people, but that’s still a minority.

~~~
surewhynat
This thread is not about Ukraine, but, if we must ...

The protests in Kiev and other cities were violent and out of control. Ukraine
was 6 months away from an election which they could have normally voted out
their president, but, the people overthrew the government instead. Since then,
the country has been so much worse off economically and socially. People have
barely any money to pay their gas bills or buy luxury food items such as
almonds. The GDP is currently one of the lowest of any countries in the world.

Other regions in the country such as the Donbass also never wanted to
overthrow their president, which is why they began their separatist movement
which led to its current civil war.

Crimea got a lucky break that it had the history that it does, and that all
the Russian speaking population was there, and that there was Russian military
presence there to enforce peace.

Maybe pre-sociology shows 38% pre Ukrainian protests in 2012, but, a lot
changed in 2 years during that complete anarchy in most Ukrainian cities such
as Kiev, Odessa, and the atempted Anarchy in Donetsk. The people of Crimea
very simply just want stability and peace, like most people do.

> 97 percent vote for integration of the region into the Russian Federation
> with an 89 percent voter turnout.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum)

~~~
Const-me
> were violent and out of control

Technically that’s true, but it’s important to remember the protest was
peaceful for couple months. Then police started the violence. People have a
right of self-defense.

> the country has been so much worse off economically and socially

Despite Ukraine have been fighting Russian army for almost 5 years now, what
you’re saying is not true: [https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/gdp-per-
capita-ppp](https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/gdp-per-capita-ppp)

> one of the lowest of any countries in the world

Not true. Ukraine is near the median, doing better than India or Philippines:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita)

> which is why they began their separatist movement which led to its current
> civil war

Neither of that is true. The “separatists” for the “separatists movement” were
Russian military personnel or special forces. The war ain’t civil, there’re
tons of factual evidence of direct Russian army involvement.

~~~
surewhynat
Again, not a post about Ukraine, but, ok ...

>Technically that’s true, but it’s important to remember the protest was
peaceful for couple months. Then police started the violence. People have a
right of self-defense.

Violent protest is not the answer, not when they had an election coming up
very soon.

> Despite Ukraine have been fighting Russian army for almost 5 years now, what
> you’re saying is not true:

Millions of people have fled the country to work abroad in countries like
Poland and Russia, among other countries in Western Europe. The common people
do not have enough money to pay their gas bills, to pay for their heating in
brutal winters. Your graph displaying some growth "per capita growth", have a
look at this graph showing the value of their currency

[https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=UAH&to=USD&view=10Y](https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=UAH&to=USD&view=10Y)

In terms of socially, absolutely it is worse. No one can afford to buy any
import goods. There are dozens of reports of mass emigration, and the people
that stay now almost all own guns in fear. You can't tell me that this is
socially better than how Ukraine was before the revolution.

>Not true. Ukraine is near the median, doing better than India or Philippines:

Ukraine was a developed nation. It had all the potential to be a manufacturing
and tech powerhouse. It was a country filled with brilliant minds, engineers
and hardworking people. Many of which have now fled the country. If you
seriously want to compare Ukraine to India (where they don't have access to
clean water or sanitation) and make that the bar for Ukraine then this
discussion with you truly is fruitless.

>Neither of that is true. The “separatists” for the “separatists movement”
were Russian military personnel or special forces. The war ain’t civil,
there’re tons of factual evidence of direct Russian army involvement.

I think it's pretty clear that the Donbass separatists are backed with Russian
aid. No one is disputing that. But it is not Russian Military doing the
fighting, which is a difference.

It's the people of the Donbass fighting for their own rights. The people on
the front lines are people of the Donbass. USA sends military personnel to
train the Ukrainian Army, and Russia probably trains people of the Donbass as
well. At the end of the day it's the people of the Donbass on the front lines
fighting for their rights.

This tit for tat argument needs to end. Seriously, people in Ukraine are so
much worse off today than they were before the revolution.

~~~
Const-me
> Violent protest is not the answer

Too bad the old Ukrainian government didn’t know it, and started to use
violence against it’s own people.

> Millions of people have fled the country to work abroad

The economy is global, air travel is cheap, Internet simplified things a lot.
Ukraine is no exception. Globally, 258 million people, myself included, are
living outside their country of birth.

> Your graph displaying some growth "per capita growth", have a look at this
> graph showing the value of their currency

That graph is in USD after adjustments for purchasing power. Currency exchange
rates are irrelevant.

> No one can afford to buy any import goods

In 2018, Ukraine has imported goods worth 56 billion USD, smartphones alone
were just under $1B: [http://www.worldstopexports.com/ukraines-
top-10-imports/](http://www.worldstopexports.com/ukraines-top-10-imports/)

> There are dozens of reports of mass emigration

There’s no mass emigration, net migration is around zero:
[https://blogs.elenasmodels.com/en/ukrstat-migration-
statisti...](https://blogs.elenasmodels.com/en/ukrstat-migration-statistics-
ukraine/)

> But it is not Russian Military doing the fighting

Russians started the war, and they did the fighting:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Strelkov_(officer)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Strelkov_\(officer\))
Their armed forces are still there. It doesn’t matter they deny that, way too
much documentary evidence of their direct involvement, for instance read links
from that article:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_intervention_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_intervention_in_Ukraine_\(2014–present\)#Donbass)

~~~
surewhynat
You're now fighting with me on two different conversation threads, what seems
like just for the sake of fighting at this point.

Violent protest is always greeted with crowd control. In Every Country. You
seem to be forgetting that the Ukrainian population caused a revolution,
instead of waiting for the election for a few more months.

Have a look at the violence from protestors just before it all fell apart.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stK3YPz6WTc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stK3YPz6WTc)

The people are worse off today than they were before. Not everyone supported
their revolution, and you can deny that all you want, but, the people in the
Donbass don't want to be a part of the circus that is Ukraine in its current
state.

> Currency exchange rates are irrelevant.

Clearly I'm beating a dead horse. I don't know where to begin explaining to
you that currency is not irrelevant.

About the mass emigration, these are people who have not filed for citizenship
with other countries because in a lot of circumstances they cannot. No one is
coming to Ukraine looking at it as a desirable place to live at the moment.
There are less jobs in Ukraine, there is less trade in Ukraine, people have no
choice but to work abroad.

Yes, I am also aware of the cases of some defected ex-Russian military helping
the Donbass fighters, but, again you keep ignoring the fact that 99% of the
population enlisted in fighting are citizens of the Donbass...

How can you honestly argue that the status quo is better than it was before
the revolution? What are you even arguing?

------
Dinux
And even nowadays that resentment against Great Britain from Iran is very much
still alive, while we hear mostly about the US getting involved in these
regions

~~~
EliRivers
For those interested, Jack Straw (former UK Foreign Secretary) wrote a book,
"The English Job", about the history of the UK and Iran (but of course
touching on a lot more) is very readable. Having been published in 2019, it's
also pretty up-to-date.

There is apparently a joke amongst diplomats that 'Iran is the only country in
the world which still regards the United Kingdom as a superpower'. There is a
phrase in Iran, which translates as something like "It's always an English
job", applied to something that has been botched and mishandled. I'd
definitely say that for the layman, if you want to understand the relationship
twixt the West and Iran (which is so much more than just the US and Iran) this
book has a place on your reading list.

~~~
selimthegrim
'Uncle Napoleon' might be helpful too

------
ossworkerrights
Curious how world politics will change once electric vehicles become
mainstream and there is little need for oil.

~~~
elfexec
It's not about oil necessarily. It's about energy source or more generally - a
valuable resource. If lithium batteries become the new "oil", then lithium
rich countries will become targets and oil countries will be ignored. But I
think oil will be valuable for many decades to come. Oil use is projected to
increase worldwide by every regulatory body.

As long as oil is valuable, we'll fight over it. If lithium becomes valuable,
we'll fight over it. Times change, but sadly people remain the same.
Especially the greedy elite.

~~~
yorwba
> If lithium batteries become the new "oil", then lithium rich countries will
> become targets

Like Afghanistan, for example:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Afghanistan#Lithium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Afghanistan#Lithium)

~~~
mensetmanusman
If lithium reaches a certain price point, then it will just be extracted from
ocean water.

------
mmrezaie
I think we are not that dependant on oil right now either and we are just used
to continue the same failed tactics if the past. The people who make these
decisions are just not making them economically and they are just used to
continue the same policies.

~~~
bhouston
Iran is in Israel's and Saudi Arabia's cross hairs. It is my feeling that the
US is mostly antagonistic to Iran because of the influence of these two
regional rivals of Iran.

------
tus88
... _in the middle of the cold war_.

~~~
idoubtit
And as soon as the cold war ended, in 1989, the USA invaded Panama to put
their own man as president. In the process, the USA killed more than 3000
civilians. The man who ordered the invasion was George H W Bush, a former
director of the CIA.

And if you're looking for more recent cases, the USA supported the military
coup in Egypt in 2013. The government even refused to call it a coup because
of legal implications. This was an important blow to democracy in the region.
The authoritarian evolution in Turkey is partly due to this.

I'm not saying other democracies are better than the USA. I'm French, and my
country still cannot face its past in Algeria. And France still supports
dictators, like a 2018 bombing in Chad recently proved. But over the last
couple of decades, I don't think any country killed more foreign civilians
than the USA did, by a large margin. Even Saudi Arabia and UAE, with their
wars in Yemen and Lybia, can't compare.

~~~
sudoaza
As recently as last year a USA backed coup removed the president elected by
more than 50% in Bolivia because they nationalized gas and were exploiting
lithium themselves.

~~~
Niten
No. Evo Morales is a would-be dictator who ignored term limits and rigged an
election to stay in power. He was forced out of power because the Bolivian
army refused to kill Bolivian people to suppress protests against him.

The facts to counter the propaganda:

\- [https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/11/16/was-there-a-
cou...](https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/11/16/was-there-a-coup-in-
bolivia)

\-
[https://www.oas.org/en/media_center/press_release.asp?sCodig...](https://www.oas.org/en/media_center/press_release.asp?sCodigo=E-109/19)

~~~
sudoaza
No. Constitutional Tribunal allowed Evo to participate in the elections
because of an international treaty that allows anyone to participate in
elections. Also, right wing local magnate Camacho confessed to conspiring with
police and military to oust Evo. The OAS is a know USA puppet organization and
presented __no proof __of any wrongdoing in the election.

Confesión Camacho [https://www.pagina12.com.ar/238942-luis-fernando-camacho-
con...](https://www.pagina12.com.ar/238942-luis-fernando-camacho-confeso-fue-
mi-padre-quien-cerro-con-l)

Convencion Americana sobre Derechos Humanos 23, b) de votar y ser elegidos en
elecciones periódicas auténticas
[http://www.oas.org/dil/esp/tratados_B-32_Convencion_American...](http://www.oas.org/dil/esp/tratados_B-32_Convencion_Americana_sobre_Derechos_Humanos.htm)

------
baybal2
> Mossadegh thought he was in the clear, but Roosevelt hadn't given up. He
> orchestrated a second coup, which succeeded. Mossadegh was placed on trial
> and spent his life under house arrest.

Never become complacent.

------
tlear
Please if you are interested in this read more. This article is just garbage.

Start with wiki it is actually surprisingly good.

“The official pretext for the start of the coup was Mosaddegh's decree to
dissolve Parliament, giving himself and his cabinet complete power to rule,
while effectively stripping the Shah of his powers.[13][14][15]”

Say Boris Johnson dissolves parliament takes all of the power into his own
hands and his ministers. Queen tries to relieve him(coup!!!!) has to run away
to France :o He then starts imprisoning anyone who has a problem with that.

I also like the legend about CIA managing to bribe a bunch of communists party
members to burn down part of Tehran trying to start revolution, at the same
time they were bribing: media, army, other counter protestors, security,
religious leaders. Just how many agents did they have running this masterclass
operation? Nobody in in Tehran clearly had any will of their own.

~~~
oefrha
Interestingly enough your surprisingly good starting point (I can't tell since
Wikipedia political articles are often heavily biased, so if I trust this one
as impartial I'd be suffering from Gell-Man amnesia again) has this to say:

> The Shah himself initially opposed the coup plans, and supported the oil
> nationalization, but he joined after being informed by the CIA that he too
> would be "deposed" if he didn't play along.

It also has this to say:

> During the coup, Roosevelt and Wilber, representatives of the Eisenhower
> administration, bribed Iranian government officials, reporters, and
> businessmen. They also bribed street thugs to support the Shah and oppose
> Mosaddegh. ...

> Another tactic Roosevelt admitted to using was bribing demonstrators into
> attacking symbols of the Shah, while chanting pro-Mosaddegh slogans. ...

Is this surprisingly good or is it laughable legend again?

~~~
tlear
In my own read Roosevelt was clearly heavily involved in the first attempt.
Second one he mostly took credit for things he wish he could do.

Wiki might be incomplete but compared to npr agitprop it is much better

