
Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China - nedp
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49015516
======
khc
As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in
China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have
helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search
engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can
see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side
effect, allow people to access some information that they otherwise wouldn't
be able to. And by surfacing better information for queries, it can also help
people finding what they want for things that are not censored.

I know some people prefer to stick their noses up and hold what they perceive
as the moral high ground, but do consider how lives of hundreds of millions of
people will be affected by your actions/inactions.

~~~
TelmoMenezes
> Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens
> ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored.

So what? That does not make censorship morally acceptable. This would be the
same as saying that using slave labor is ok, if you do it in a country that
already accepts slavery anyway, and you are treating you slaves better.

> And by surfacing better information for queries, it can also help people
> finding what they want for things that are not censored.

Once the state is performing censorship there is no such thing as "better
information". If all information is filtered by the government, then all
information is suspicious.

> but do consider how lives of hundreds of millions of people will be affected
> by your actions/inactions.

I have profound sympathy for the victims of authoritarian regimes, and I
absolutely do not believe that the way to help them is to collaborate with the
very system that oppresses them. Pretending otherwise sounds like Newspeak to
me.

> I know some people prefer to stick their noses up and hold what they
> perceive as the moral high ground

Maybe some people are like that, but this is unimportant. The important thing
is this: you have to put your own oxygen mask on before helping others. If we
in the west allow our companies to collaborate with systems that hold values
that are repugnant to our own, then we will become like those systems, not the
other way around. There will be nowhere to hide. No thank you.

Let's not be naive: say what you want about the Chinese government, but they
are not imbeciles. If they did not perceive Dragonfly as something that would
help them maintain their repressive apparatus, they would not allow it.

~~~
baby
Your problem is that you're seeing this issue as black and white, which never
does good.

~~~
tgragnato
Hundreds of millions of people are "negatively affected" by their government
and a concerned human being appealed to compassion. Realists can acknowledge
that countries and companies will negotiate according to their own self-
interest.

Google is right in sustaining that it's up to Chinese citizens to uphold said
government to standards (whatever they will be): it's a technology company
that wanted an access to the Chinese market, not a charity working for the
good of foreign people. That's extremely practical, not something that's on a
scale of black and white.

When employees define Dragonfly internals as disturbing I'm prone to honestly
think that it wouldn't have helped in finding censored material. Smells like
something management would say to justify a money-driven decision. Looking for
a gray scale in choices like these is a distraction.

See no evil - Hear no evil - Speak no evil - Accept moral ambiguity

~~~
baby
Let's respectfully disagree then. I firmly believe that this would have
improved the status quo for everyone, and that a vocal minority who also
firmly believe they are right prevented that.

They are kind of like Rorschach who refused to compromised in the last pages
of Watchmen, even though it was the right thing to do (in my opinion).

------
peteretep
To me, this feels like an area Uncle Sam and the EU need to get involved in.
Declare all censorship or need to comply with the Great Firewall to be a trade
barrier, freeze out all Chinese tech companies on that basis, and find a way
to strongly discourage American and European companies from in any way
enabling it.

~~~
ezoe
Both US and EU exercise censorship in the name of:

\+ copyrights

\+ trademarks

\+ patents(really bogus patents)

\+ religion(these days, US outright ban any casual religious reference because
it offend some believers, resulting modifying some manga/anime/game)

\+ national security

\+ ex-political party symbol(swastika, but they can't tell the difference
between nazi symbol and Buddism symbol which is widely used in Japanese
commercial products, especially manga/anime/game)

\+ child porno(their definition includes some commercial Japanese
manga/anime/game which we believe not possibly be a child porn since it's a
pure fiction and no real-life human being harmed).

I believe these are also a trade barrier for Japan. But I bet you disagree
some of the above points and justify the censorship because it's against your
moral based on your culture.

~~~
patejam
So a couple things (From the US perspective):

1\. Copyright, trademarks, and patents are a pretty weak argument for
"censorship" IMO. But I guess I see where you're coming from. There are also
many "fair-use" exceptions for these that make it less "censorship" and more
"preventing profit on other people's ideas".

2\. "US outright ban any casual religious reference because it offend some
believers, resulting modifying some manga/anime/game" \-- Can you give an
example? This seems to go directly against first amendment rights.

3\. "national security" \-- There have been many cases where the government
will work with press to attempt to stop them from releasing information that
would damage national security. There have also been many cases where the
press has not listened, and they're allowed to do that. What specifically are
you talking about here? Direct theft of government property/information is
illegal, but I would hardly call that censorship. NDAs I guess are censorship,
but they are an agreement between two parties, not the government deciding
arbitrarily what to censor.

4\. "ex-political party symbol" \-- absolutely not banned in the US.

5\. Okay the last one is a fair example of censorship. I'm not familiar with
the US laws on that one and frankly I don't want to find out...

~~~
ezoe
> Can you give an example? This seems to go directly against first amendment
> rights.

Like I said, many manga/anime/games were modified to remove any casual use of
religious symbol when released in US. These days, major products don't contain
these beforehand if it's famous enough to expect US release.

~~~
jjeaff
There is about zero chance that was done due to US laws or censorship.

Most likely, the publishers themselves removed it to avoid controversy and
sell more anime.

------
ta20190717
Does anyone know the technical details of what Google would have needed to
comply with in China? From my understanding, a lot of western companies do
business in China via (51% local controlled) "Partners" that ostensibly run
their infrastructure for them, and obviously have to abide by local
regulation. This includes operating an "Information Security Management
System" (a euphemism of a sort) that interfaces with the Ministry of Industry
and Information Technology for auditable end-user access logs and content
blocking.

It seems this is governed by these standards, but I failed to dig up a copy of
them. Is it true that any western company offering a mainland Chinese version
of their product exposes these interfaces?

YD/T 2248-2015 - 互联网数据中心和互联网接入服务信息安全管理系统技术要求 - Interface requirements of
information security management system for Internet data center/Internet
service provider

YD/T 2406-2017 - 互联网数据中心和互联网接入服务信息安全管理系统及接口测试方法 - Test specifications of
information security management system & interface for Internet data
center/Internet service provider

YD/T 3212-2017 - 内容分发网络服务信息安全管理系统接口规范 - Interface standard of information
security management system for content delivery network service

YD/T 3213-2017 - 内容分发网络服务信息安全管理系统及接口测试方法 - Test specifications of information
security management system for content delivery network service

YD/T 3214-2017 - 互联网资源协作服务信息安全管理系统接口规范 - Interface specification for
information security management of Internet resource collaboration service

YD/T 3215-2017 - 互联网资源协作服务信息安全管理系统及接口测试方法 - Test methods of information
security management system for Internet resource collaboration service

~~~
hangonhn
I don't know the nuances of the new ownership laws but the 51% rule no longer
applies. The Tesla gigafactory in China is wholly owned by Tesla. These
protective measure is unnecessary now that China has grown so much
economically.

~~~
sarabande
The 51% rule does apply for certain industries (here is the PDF:
[https://www.set-up-company.com/uploads/file/negative-list-
fo...](https://www.set-up-company.com/uploads/file/negative-list-for-foreign-
investment-access-in-ftzs.pdf\);) an informative guide is here:
[https://www.set-up-company.com/the-ultimate-guide-for-
china-...](https://www.set-up-company.com/the-ultimate-guide-for-china-wfoe-
formation-in-2018.html) and I would start there.

A WFOE = Wholly Foreign-Owned Enterprise is allowed for manufacturing (which I
assume Tesla regulates under), but not for Telecom companies where 51% still
applies. Internet services seem even worse based on a cursory reading:

    
    
        (42) No foreign investor is allowed to invest in Internet news services, Internet publishing services, Internet audio-visual program services, Internet culture operation (except music), Internet access service establishments, and services of information release to the public through Internet (except those under China's commitment to opening up to the outside world in its entry into the WTO).

------
i_am_nomad
... for now. What would be far more reassuring would be a statement from
Google that Project Dragonfly does not meet their ethical standards as a
company.

~~~
anvandare
The fact that they even started the project speaks for itself.

Companies don't have ethical standards, only slick PR departments.

~~~
geophertz
Strangely people do not care about Apple doing the same thing.

Even on HN posts talking about how Apple sells privacy as a product are
upvoted and reach > 1000 upvotes.

~~~
ApolloFortyNine
You know what company was once in China and pulled out on moral grounds?
Google. [1]

Yet nobody cares, as evidenced by the number of companies who do plenty of
business in China without backlash. So Google tries to go back to China, and
everyone loses their minds.

It's frustrating to be honest, it's as if they're be punished for a good deed
they did 10 years ago. If they had just never left, they'd be in the same
situation as Apple, where nobody (or magnitudes less, if you want to get
pedantic) cares.

I at least hope governments will ban Baidu from ever competing outside of
China. I would hate to see Google suffer because they weren't ever allowed to
compete with Baidu on their home turf.

[1] [https://www.businessinsider.com/google-pulls-out-of-
china-20...](https://www.businessinsider.com/google-pulls-out-of-china-2010-3)

~~~
tgragnato
> I at least hope governments will ban Baidu from ever competing outside of
> China.

"If you open the window, both fresh air and flies will be blown in." 邓小平

That ideology works and benefits China only if there is a disparity between
what China is allowed to do in the rest of the world and what China allows the
world to do. I am also convinced that restoring an equal relationship is a
great way to make the Chinese problem settle on its own.

------
ZeroCool2u
While a certain amount of cynicism is healthy and it should be acknowledged
that Google can always back track, I'm still happy that for now they've
decided not to assist and facilitate one of the most Orwellian nation's to
ever exist.

~~~
sneak
> _I 'm still happy that for now they've decided not to assist and facilitate
> one of the most Orwellian nation's to ever exist._

Don’t get too excited; they haven’t announced a lack of participation in PRISM
yet.

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-
giants...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-
data)

~~~
jkaptur
What would you want Google to say?

"I’m not sure I can say this more clearly: we’re not in cahoots with the NSA
and there’s is no government program that Google participates in that allows
the kind of access that the media originally reported. Note that I say
“originally” because you’ll see that many of those original sources corrected
their articles after it became clear that the PRISM slides were not accurate.
Now, what does happen is that we get specific requests from the government for
user data. We review each of those requests and push back when the request is
overly broad or doesn’t follow the correct process. There is no free-for-all,
no direct access, no indirect access, no back door, no drop box."

[https://venturebeat.com/2013/06/19/google-issues-clearest-
st...](https://venturebeat.com/2013/06/19/google-issues-clearest-statement-
yet-on-nsa-and-prism-no-server-access-no-back-door-no-drop-box-no-free-for-
all/)

(I work at Google, not in a relevant role.)

~~~
Kaiyou
"We are moving our entire business to Europe, because we legally cannot keep
the NSA out of your data otherwise." would be a start.

~~~
vatueil
That would just move the ball into GCHQ or DGSE's court.

~~~
Kaiyou
I said it would be a start, not a final solution.

~~~
vatueil
The start of what? There's no reason to assume non-Europeans would prefer
British, French, or EU jurisdiction over the current situation.

------
cletus
Good.

Some argue this is just Google following local laws. I say that being legal !=
being moral and helping the government of China censor and track citizens is
not a moral position, law be damned. The amount of internal resistance this
got is good evidence of this project not being consistent with the values of
most of the people who work there.

The fact that leadership tried to hide this project, keep it secret and deny
its existence is... disappointing.

Then again, I already had the opinion that Sundar is the most overpaid CEO in
the world.

------
sidibe
It's amazing the outrage a project investigating how to comply has generated
while Bing is quietly working just fine in China.

------
kpU8efre7r
Why was it terminated? In theory a search engine that merely adheres to
Chinese law sounds fine. Give a better product than they already have with the
same restrictions they already have. I wonder if there ended up being far more
control and restrictions than they bargained for and with the increased risk
of tech theft the project just wasn't worth it.

------
mnm1
So corporate censorship (Google search outside of China) is fine but
government censorship (Google search inside China) isn't. Also, government
censorship by Western governments (UK, etc.) is fine but government censorship
by non western governments (China) is not. I don't see much difference myself
but it seems others do.

------
carapace
There is a clash of fundamental values, it's deeper than politics.

Technology is driving confrontations with our values, our ideas of what it
means to be human.

Organlegging was science fiction, now it's happening.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organlegging](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organlegging)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_theft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_theft)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplantation_in_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplantation_in_China)

"What kind of future do we want?", is no longer the question, because it's
here, now.

------
educationdata
This is definitely not enough. There still need to be an thorough
investigation into the history of the project, at least include but not
limited to:

1) the internal decision making process involving this project

2) personnel who are responsible for initiating / approving the project

3) how many resources have been put into this project

4) the exact content (data sources, roadmap, goals, etc.) of this project

5) how far this project went

6) where the product / data is stored, how will they be handled when the
project is terminated

7) how many of the project outputs have being provided to the Chinese
government

8) the details of Chinese government involvement into this project

Also, not limited to Google, any U.S. company helps any authoritarian
government doing censorship needs to be investigated.

BTW, I got lots of downvotes from comments criticizing China.

------
chollier
what about microsoft / bing? they are available in China and no one seems to
give them shit compared to google

~~~
londons_explore
Google employees are very vocal, and will internally protest anything they
don't agree with. That protest often gets leaked to the media.

Microsoft is run like a regular company where employees just do what they're
told.

------
alexnewman
I have friends at google still working on this.

------
dbg31415
I'm happy Google is dropping this. I don't want them developing more
censorship tech that they can then roll out to the US, or other markets. It
should be hard to censor things on the internet, and the less effort that is
put into censorship tech, the better off humanity is.

------
chvid
Does anyone know the exact requirements set by China on google for them to
enter the Chinese market? I suppose adherence to Chinese law but what exactly?
Support of law enforcement, censorship of specific sites, personal data stored
in China etc...

~~~
iamnotacrook
Does anyone know whether there are in fact "exact requirements" at all, or
whether you just have informal off the record chats with officials where
you're given to understand that it would be "looked upon favourably" if this
or happens or does not happen. From everything I've read about how China
operates it's sort of the exact opposite in one sense from the west. In the
west there are rules and there are loopholes around the rules. In China they
are sort of more pragmatic - they want to protect growth & security and resist
foreign interference whether cultural or religious; what's written as a rule
or law or whatever isn't such a big deal; there's an understanding that you
just do what you're told in that context. So they don't mind Google operating
there but if Google run operations which "threaten orderliness" then it's
going to have a hard time.

~~~
curt15
>From everything I've read about how China operates it's sort of the exact
opposite in one sense from the west.

The main differences can be summarized as "rule of law" versus "rule of
people". Also connections with someone in the upper levels of gov't are
paramount for any company looking to make it big.

Source: Chinese family members.

~~~
chvid
Ok.

But a big project like this has to gather its requirements somehow. Do google
then have dialogue with a representative of the government?

Bing and outlook is (or was at least around 2015) accessible and localized in
mainland China.

I wonder how they did it?

------
La-ang
Not buying this. It was previously told that the project was suspended while
in reality it wa still worked on in secret. Chances are they will terminate
Dragonfly, but start working on it under a different banner.

------
bad_user
I'm happy that Dragonfly is being terminated and I'm sure this is also the
direct result of all Google employees who objected to it.

To the Chinese people here on HN try to understand that this is larger than
the welfare of the Chinese.

China is now in a position to export its culture to the rest of the world due
to its economic strength.

It can, for example, force companies like Google to censor information to the
rest of the world and this is a fact.

How do I know this? Because us EU citizens already have to suffer the US views
on sex and nudity, among others and the US has the strongest free speech
protections of all countries.

The whataboutism on this discussion btw is interesting since this forum would
be censored in China and this conversation wouldn't be possible. There's no
comparison to be made in terms of free speech. In China you have none.

So I regret the situation, but many of us value our liberal freedoms and we
don't want China to export its flavor of communism to us.

Yes I was born and raised in an ex-communist country, I know communism when I
see it, I don't want any and I'm prepared to fight for my freedoms.

I do hope to see China become a liberal democracy. But I'm not holding my
breath, because I also know what it takes for a revolution to happen and China
won't be there for the foreseeable future.

~~~
tracker1
Agreed... have had several friends and coworkers over the years who are expat
Russian and HK, and have no love for communism. Being born in the 70's and
coming up in the 80's probably means some bias on my own part. I just don't
want anything resembling that level of restriction from any government. I have
enough problems with my own (US) govt, let alone adding a more repressive
stream.

------
elchupanebre
They said they have terminated the project Dragonfly. But did they actually
stop working on the censored search for China? And why was the statement made
by a PR dude Karan Bhatia instead of Ceasar Sengupta who was supposedly in
charge of the project?

------
RenRav
I wonder if they will they put this on killedbygoogle.com?

~~~
penagwin
While I guess you could say it was a project killed by google (supposedly -
we'll see how long that lasts), killedbygoogle.com is mostly meant to shame
google, and I don't really want to shame them for cancelling this project.

~~~
glennpratt
Lord help us if we allow nuance.

------
gowld
The news here is just that Google told the Senate hearing confirmation of the
same thing people were saying informally before.

------
phoe-krk
I am accepting bets on when the project will be terminated _again_ in the
future.

Bitcoin only. Tether only in high amounts.

~~~
skj
How could someone collect? Your window seems open-ended.

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
There is a service called "OneHash" I think... where impartial 3rd Parties can
be the judge of bets like these for a small fee on the transaction.

I might be confused on the name, and can't look up Crypto stuff at work.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

------
teknopurge
That was fast. Good job Peter.

------
xxxpupugo
Who said China would allow Google to go back in the first place?

------
patientplatypus
Meh...they'll rename it "Happy Pancakes", do it again until they get caught
and then fire some hapless nitwit middle manager that they wanted to get rid
of anyway.

Yay, capitalism. Where no one's to blame and everything's always on fire.

------
fareesh
How different is project dragonfly from what is already being proposed by some
political folks in the USA?

YouTube has arbitrary content policies which seem to mirror whatever the
Democratic party wants. From China's POV they want the same thing except they
call their party the Communist party.

Guys like Dennis Prager are trying to run a YouTube channel with conservative
viewpoints and are finding it impossible to do so without obstacles. I don't
think there is a single channel that is right of center which is not
mistreated by YouTube.

Politics aside, let's look at political correctness. On YouTube you cannot be
critical about a class of people because of their immigration status. I
watched a documentary about of smuggling of illegal immigrants from North
Africa into Europe. They showed footage of a guy who couldn't go out into his
own farm at night because smugglers would trespass on his property en route to
the shore where the boats were. The documentary was one of those "live"
launches on YouTube. Conveniently the live launch was bugged out. I had to
refresh the page an hour after I realized it didn't release.

24 hours later it was banned by YouTube.

So I ask again, is it only Chinese censorship that western society has a
problem with?

------
Gpetrium
It would not surprise anyone if Project Dragonfly's termination occurred as a
consequence of current trade spats between the two nations which could
lead/has led to some animosity towards each other's products/services.

------
ryanmercer
Probably because China has sufficiently copied/stolen it to not need Google
any longer. It would be trivial to put government agents inside the local team
and copy whatever they wanted, or coerce the local team to contribute
everything they learned to the government.

