
Tyson Foods Invests in Startup Beyond Meat - prostoalex
http://www.wsj.com/articles/tyson-foods-invests-in-startup-beyond-meat-1476140287
======
wuschel
That is great news! Beyond Meat is not the only player on the block, though.

The challenges in the alt.ag. sector lie in the development of mass production
technology. From the side of the market, consumers need an extra benefit
(animal cruelty free products are not enough) in order to be converting.
Outside of the startups, the time to maturity is hypothesized to be 5-15
years.

Tyson is a very forward looking company, very much worried about the future of
protein food supply. I had the pleasure of meeting some of their folks, and at
least the top level very well outlined the problems we are going to face.

Current business model in the sector is focused on high volume production with
strong attrition, little regard to animal ethics (low regulations) and
consolidation among manufacturers.

Just the numbers make me shudder:

* Livestock produces 18% of greenhouse emissions

* Feed animals occupy 70% of arable land on our planet.

With the classic animal protein supply chain being almost max'ed out in terms
of capacity (and energy+matter conversion effiency), we have some grim
perspectives here.

Disclaimer: I work in the alt tag tech startup sector.

~~~
refurb
I'm not sure why this is a scary stat:

 _" Feed animals occupy 70% of arable land on our planet."_

If we didn't raise animals on that land it would just go fallow. It's not like
we need more land to grow crops.

~~~
wuschel
Well, good point, I typed my comment up fairly quickly.

It is a lot of land occupied by a very recource hungry industry and less
efficient industry e.g. you need 100x more water to make animal protein when
compared to plant protein. We use 25% of our freshwater consumption for animal
protein production - not even mentioning other recourses. With a growing
number of people on the planet, efficiency is key.

~~~
mrob
If that water is from rain then it's a renewable resource, and if it's not
used it will just flow to the sea and be wasted. There are places like Wales,
with a wet climate and hilly terrain that are poorly suited to arable
cultivation but ideal for livestock. See
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Wales](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Wales)

However, freeing up more land for plants means we could grow the same amount
of food using less intensive cultivation techniques, eg. rotating in nitrogen-
fixing crops instead of relying on energy-intensive Haber process fertilizers.

~~~
lkbm
> If that water is from rain then it's a renewable resource, and if it's not
> used it will just flow to the sea and be wasted.

This is simply not true. A large amount of rainwater goes to (or would go to)
replenishing aquifers, which we use to provide our drinking and irrigation
water. Unharvested rainwater is not wasted--it replenishes our natural
freshwater storage.

Additionally, not all water used is captured rainwater. Some comes from those
aquifers being replenished by rainwater, and some comes from fossil aquifers,
which DON'T get replenished on a human timescale and are truly non-renewable.

If all our livestock were grown in places like Wales, maybe the idea of "use
it or lose it" holds true, but we've got a lot of cattle sitting atop the
Ogallala Aquifer in the US, and you can find similar situations many places
where we raise livestock.

------
newscracker
Here's a link from LA Times (no paywall): [http://www.latimes.com/business/la-
fi-tysons-beyond-meat-201...](http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-tysons-
beyond-meat-20161010-snap-story.html)

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Animats
Only 5%. It's not an exit yet.

It's not very tasty meat.[1] However, it compares favorably with over-
processed, over-seasoned real meat, and it's way ahead of most soy-based meat-
like products.

[1] [https://www.technologyreview.com/s/536296/the-problem-
with-f...](https://www.technologyreview.com/s/536296/the-problem-with-fake-
meat/)

~~~
dogma1138
I've tasted a few bean based "chef" veggie burgers that were quite close
especially malted ones that replicated some (good) meat flavors somewhat well.

I'm happy there is a non soy alternative comming as i don't touch most soy
based products because they contain a lot of soy protein.

I'm not a vegetarian or a vegan just don't mind having a good and healthy
alternative to be able to use if I do need to host those who are or just feel
like getting of meat for a few weeks.

~~~
Torn
Out of interest, what's wrong with soy protein?

~~~
dogma1138
Soy especially unfermented soy has pretty bad health effects when consumed in
any meaningful dose daily.

Soy isn't "healthy" it's not used as a replacement for food in Asia, it's
mostly used in small amounts to add flavour or as a condiment, and it's almost
always fermented.

In the west people use unfermented soy as replacement for many type of foods
including dairy, meat and wheat in excessive amounts.

What worse is that Soy protein prevents the absorption of other proteins as it
contains a fairly large amount of trypsin inhibitors
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trypsin_inhibitor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trypsin_inhibitor)
To render soy "safe" it usually need to be heat treated to break down STI and
a several potentially risky amino acids, this isn't viable with all soy
products (e.g. milk) or products that already contain soy as an ingredient
(you can't microwave a candy bar), and heat treating soy tends to lower it's
nutritional value considerably as well as ruin the flavor and the texture in
many cases.

But as stated before fermented soy products (various soy sauces, miso etc.)
aren't as an issue the fermentation breaks apart most of the potentially risky
stuff in soy including STI's and amino acids like Valine (which is causally
linked to insulin resistance, while most foods contain valine 10g of soy
protein would contain about 400mg of it), honestly the fact that most
traditional soy foods are fermented to begin with probably isn't a
coincidence.

~~~
SwellJoe
The health effects of soy aren't well enough understood to say eating it has
"pretty bad health effects". Some studies indicate it has positive health
impact, even while some studies of specific things found in soy (and some
theories about some specific things found in soy that don't have a lot of
evidence to back them up, but they sound good). I think we should consider soy
a suspect ingredient, but not an indicted one. I don't eat a lot of it, but I
don't go far out of my way to avoid it, either.

There's just too much history of soy consumption in Japan, and too much
evidence indicating that Japanese people who eat soy have longer/healthier
lives than those who never eat soy, that I think there's some stuff we just
don't understand about it yet...making it more complicated than simple
ingredients like simple sugars (that we know are generally bad) or fiber (that
we know is generally good).

I've gone back and forth on avoiding soy; these days I do prefer it fermented,
but I'll eat non-fermented soy foods now and then without feeling like I'm
taking a big health risk.

Anyway, I don't necessarily disagree strongly with you, and there's probably a
good argument that you should prefer fermented soy foods. But, I think the
science is up in the air enough to make me think maybe the "smoking" gun
really isn't.

Also, black beans, and some other kinds of beans that are commonly consumed
whole and without being fermented, contain more of some of the stuff that
allegedly makes soy bad for you. So, if you're cutting out soy for those
reasons, you also have to cut out black beans, among others. That doesn't feel
like a good choice, to me...since those beans have so many healthy
characteristics.

~~~
dogma1138
I don't eat raw black beans either in large amounts ;)

No issues with eating some soy, the issue is using soy as a food replacement
for dairy, meat and wheat which results in consuming very large amounts of it.

Also non-fermented soy products in Asia are also treated either with heat or
chemically (acid, salts, enzymes) which reduces the amount of the risky stuff
and are more safer for consumption.

The problem in the west/mass produced food is where raw soy is used as a
filler/replacement ingredient without proper consideration for pretreatment.

Also FYI traditional chinese and japanese soy milk is boiled (for a fairly
lenghty duration upto 30 min)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soy_milk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soy_milk),
some western brands are not, an easy test to know if it was heat treated or
not is to check how much does it foam, if it foams excessively it's likely
unboiled cold pressed milk (tho silicone (e is intentional) might have been
added as an anti-foaming agent, so in doubt heat it up for 10 min).

~~~
grardb
I'm a bit confused about some of the stuff you're saying. Do you have any
sources I could check out? I'm a vegetarian, and while I don't eat tons of
soy, I'm genuinely interested because I haven't ever read about this. Soy
haters usually talk about how I'm about to gain a second X chromosome or
something.

I've never heard of soy milk not being cooked. From what I've read, Silk
definitely cooks their milk, and so does a company called Sunrich (which has
at some point been what's behind Kirkland, Costco's brand)[1]. I haven't
really looked into others, but I've read that in order to remove the "bean"
taste from the finished product, it requires cooking, and the longer the
better. Like you said, though, if it's cooked, it's fine. I personally make my
own soy milk.

You said in another reply that tofu and edemame are safe as well. According to
Wikipedia, the soy protein in TVP is heated to 150-200ºC[2], which I assume is
hot enough to "fix" the soy? Tempeh is fermented, so I guess that's okay too.

I suppose that basically just leaves soy protein powder (and what they're used
for, e.g. protein bars) and heavily processed meat substitutes? I don't know
much about the former, but given that processed food in general is typically
unhealthy, I'm left to wonder if soy is the main issue, or even an issue at
all.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd1s179yWGM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd1s179yWGM)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textured_vegetable_protein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textured_vegetable_protein)

------
newscracker
This, or something like this, was bound to happen because this is the nature
of business. Hopefully Beyond Meat will not disappear but instead be able to
grow bigger and become better.

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BHSPitMonkey
If these are voting shares, couldn't Tyson theoretically exercise their
(albeit small) influence in favor of making Beyond Meat fail? I'm unfamiliar
with safeguards against potential conflicts of interest like this, if any.

~~~
tkyjonathan
I see it a bit differently: They may be interested in integrating Beyond Meat
into their distribution pipeline with this purchase in order for their
investment to pay off.

And why not? Growing animals for 300days in very poor conditions while paying
pesky humans to take care of them, slaughter them, slice them up and transport
them.

You can just mix a couple plant-based ingredients and produce a decent burger
instead at a fraction of the cost and time - it scales way better.

Then you have all those reporters with their hidden camera of what goes on in
those factory farms - why do you need all that bad publicity anyway.

This is good publicity for them, cheaper to produce, healthier for humans and
the environment. I cannot see a downside to this for any company or society.

~~~
ianai
Asimov sold me. Yeast and algae are the (maybe distant) future.

------
jlebrech
this can be a double edged sword, a company that contributes to animal
suffering is profiting from the non-meat industry. but on the other hand the
investment should be welcome. one compromise that may arise is the creation of
a hybrid "low-meat" type product which still contributes to animal suffering
but drastically disrupts the meat market.

------
spodek
> "we really can’t feed a whole planet with meat.”

If the food supply is limiting the population and making it more efficient
increases the population, you're back where you started.

Same with any limit to the population.

~~~
Tarrosion
"if" being the key word there, and fortunately this is not borne out by data.
When resources are more abundant, people have _fewer_ children.

Edit: here's a source. [https://ourworldindata.org/fertility/#correlates-
determinant...](https://ourworldindata.org/fertility/#correlates-determinants-
consequences)

------
imtringued
Too bad that the good "fake" meat is milk based. Is there perhaps a way to
produce milk without animals? Or at least a way to make cows produce milk
without pregnancy?

~~~
BvS
The Beyond Meat products are 100% plant-based (vegan). I don't know if they
are any good though (can't buy them in Germany).

~~~
abawany
Their beef grounds are quite convincing and good, IMO though their extreme
leanness gives them away. I have tried the chicken strips product as well and
was not impressed. The burgers did well in the toaster oven but when I tried
on a grill, possibly due to my mistakenly overcooking them, they were not
good. All in all, their products have been the best substitutes that I have
tried so far and I like that they are soy-free and contain the ingredients to
form a fairly complete protein.

------
elif
As an ethical V, I'm conflicted that one of the worst actors in the space
would profit off of my purchase.. luckily there are many alternatives for me
to buy. Perhaps they are counting on most people not knowing, or don't really
understand their core market.

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norea-armozel
Are these products much better than say the morning star farm soy paddies?
Because for me it's not so much texture as it is over all taste that affects
what I eat. And most soy based products seem to taste so bland at least the
ones we make here in the States.

------
jimmywanger
I've tried most alternative meat products on the market.

Beyond Meat is fairly low on my list of favourite meat alternatives. The
texture and taste just aren't quite right, sort of in the uncanny valley, if
you will.

My favourite alt-meat product would have to be Quorn.

~~~
rebeccaskinner
I haven't found a single company that I think gets it right across their
product lines. Quorn have some really good items- I really enjoy their pork
roast type item, but I sometimes find their stuff to be overly dry and the
texture is a bit off. Beyond's chicken strips have a closer texture in my
opinion. Match has the best option for ground beef and sausage. Sweet Earth's
seitan burgers are by far the best tasting veggie burger I've had, although
they are not like an actual hamburger at all.

I'm really looking forward to trying some of the newer alternatives that use
plant-derived heme to increase the similarity to actual meat, but as far as I
can tell those aren't widely available for purchase yet so who knows how good
they'll actually end up being.

------
sonar_un
Maybe Tyson can help Beyond Meat use their distribution channels to supply
more stores. I find that BM products are always out of stock in Whole Foods in
certain regions.

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helthanatos
"Branding is important" In other words... You're trying to get people that
already eat meat to eat fake meat instead of people that already eat fake
meat? I don't see why you would target a different audience. There are some
benefits to meat that will take a little more work to replicate in a lab
concoction. I, personally, would prefer eating something that once lived than
eating lab made imitation... I also don't like when something says it's fruit
but it's really somehing fake or foods that are mislabeled.

------
rdlecler1
Margarine is a plant based alternative to butter. My concearn with alt.meat is
whether or not this is just margarine 2.0.

------
mrfusion
What do you guys think about food based startups? It seems like there are lots
of opportunities for disruption?

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ianai
Options are always good.

------
unwind
This made me do a double take:

 _Whole Foods Market Inc. this year began stocking them in the meat section of
dozens of stores mostly in the mid-Atlantic [...]_

Not being from the US, I had to look this up since it sounds like they're
stocking veggie burgers in the middle of the Atlantic ocean. They're not,
though. :) It's a reference to the state of New York, New Jersey,
Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Washington, D.C., Virginia, and West
Virginia (although the exact definition varies, this is from the Wikipedia
page [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-
Atlantic_states](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_states)).

So, I learned something today. :)

~~~
grardb
Don't worry. I'm from New York, and I've never heard this term before. I got a
huge chuckle out of your comment :D

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warmfuzzykitten
Could we stop with the links to WSJ? Very few people can get past the paywall.

~~~
swampthinker
The common workaround is to click "web" under the story link, then click the
first result. Gets around the paywall. Or you could just pay for the WSJ.

~~~
lukasLansky
This doesn't work for me on mobile.

~~~
jmknoll
You can also copy the article title and run a google search for it. WSJ isn't
paywalled for links from search engines (Google for sure at least, not sure
about others).

~~~
Noseshine
We have come full circle. How about the submitter of the story does that?

~~~
maggit
It seems like WSJ inspects the Referer HTTP header, so it disables the paywall
if it seems that you navigated to it from a search engine. So, it is not a
property of the link.

This, of course, makes sure I do not get around the paywall, since I have
disabled that header in my browser. (I dislike the tracking aspect)

