

Workers should not have to die so Apple can build the iPhone 5 - zacharye
http://www.bgr.com/2012/02/01/workers-should-not-have-to-die-so-apple-can-build-the-iphone-5-petition-says/

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United857
As usual, there's always another side to the story. Why do you think these
companies continue to be inundated with resumes and applicants?

A good read is Factory Girls by Leslie Chang. I went to listen to a talk she
gave last year on her experience at Shenzhen. She made a comment that Shenzhen
is a very tough place to live. The place is very industrial and polluted. But
when she went to the hometown village of one of her friends (a factory worker)
for several days during the Chinese New Year, she found herself missing
Shenzhen because the conditions of Chinese countrysides were even worse.

This isn't t justify business practices of Apple, Foxconn, or other
manufacturers, but it's important to remember that whether an environment is
good or bad really depends on what we are benchmarking it with.

~~~
mechanical_fish
You're right, and the moral of that story is: Poverty sucks! Poverty is so bad
that even the process of _rapidly growing out of that poverty_ seems
incomprehensibly awful to the non-poor.

On the other hand, just because these little letters of protest can't
magically fix the whole Chinese economy doesn't mean they're necessarily
useless. Worker rights are not won all at once. They're negotiated a little
bit at a time. The more bad PR companies get, the higher the cost of dealing
with it, and the easier it becomes for workers to negotiate better working
conditions.

Much of Foxconn's response to this dustup will be cosmetic. But cosmetics cost
money, too, so some of the response will consist of real reform.

------
Lazare
Should workers die so I can have a fish dinner? (Fishing is dangerous.) Should
workers die so I can wipe my ass? (So is forestry.) Should workers die so I
can charge my iPhone? (So is generating and transmitting power.) Should
workers die so I can have a larger house? (As is construction.) Should workers
die so I can drive to work? (Oh, and manufacturing.)

We live in an imperfect world. Everything is somewhat dangerous. People are -
literally - dying while making every single product you have ever consumed or
seen in the stores. To phrase your argument in absolutes is to reveal yourself
as hopelessly naive.

There's a conversation to be had here, but it's probably going to be in the
following form: "The fatal accident rate in factories supplying Apple is X per
100,000. I believe it should be Y, and I believe that because of specific
reasons A, B, and C." And then we can discuss if X is really too high, and if
Y is achievable, and maybe evaluate your reasons, and the likely outcome of
trying to bring the rate from X to Y.

But the implication here is that the rate of fatal accidents per year should
be zero, and that's ludicrous. Foxconn employs around a million people. How
many people do _you_ think have died there in the last year? (Please provide
citations to government statistics or independent news articles.)

Meanwhile, the death rate for manufacturing workers in the UK is 1.1 per
100,000; 27 people died in fatal accidents in the UK in the manufacturing
sector last year. So...what? "Workers should not have to die so Rolls Royce
can build jet engines?" Are these workers being exploited? Should we be
boycotting jet engines, air travel, and all products which have travelled by
air? Or is, perhaps, a death rate of 1.1 per 100,000 actually an acceptable
trade-off?

~~~
kevin_morrill
One problem I have with the people up in arms about suicides at the plant, is
they have little awareness of how rampant suicides are at major universities
in China. It's fairly regular for teens to literally jump out of the window in
their dormitories if they get a bad grade.

I think the point is not to single out a particular company, but figure out
how to evolve the entire culture so this kind of stuff doesn't happen.

------
frankydp
Far east countries do seem to be going through the same events that lead to
the migration of the Department of Labor from statistical institution to
enforcement institution.

The have similar weak laws like the Working Condition Service act that really
do little to force change, but begin to change the mindset of workers. This
beginning change of mindset will force real workplace safety regulation in the
future, but even in the US it took over 40 years and was mostly because of a
side effect from a shipping regulation change that expanded the scope of the
DOL to enforce safety requirements on merchant ships. This small change was
used as precedence for real regulation in 1970 with OSHA, which was very
necessary, with numbers of workplace deaths in the near 15,000.

It will take time for the public will to be great enough to force real change,
and it is hard regardless of your buying power to change cultural practices.

------
AllenKids
The n-hexane poisoning incident happened between October 2008 and July 2009,
Apple's 2010 report on suppliers' labor practice (published feb 2011)
disclosed this severe offense and Apple demanded Wintek to stop such practice
and compensate affected workers.

Wintek failed to offer these disabled workers adequate monetary compensation
and necessary medical aide. And Apple did not monitor Wintek's clean-up act
close enough, just took the vendor's word for it. So later 2011 the conflict
blew out into a full protest at the factory's gate.

Though Apple is one of Wintek's major clients, the Taiwan based company did
not exclusively produce iPhone panels.

------
rdouble
The people writing and promoting these stories are going to be really bummed
out when they find out where wedding rings, light bulbs, clothing, toys,
gasoline, oil, electricity, food and water come from.

------
newbusox
I feel like the outrage against Foxconn and Apple (and others) is particularly
heightened by the fact that we're talking about an iPhone, as opposed to a
piece of industrial machinery, or even, say, a car, the production of which is
probably as or more dangerous than the production of iPhones. You’re not going
to see an article that says "Workers should not have to die so Toyota can
build the Toyota Camry," although that is likely an equally valid claim.

The reality is that the construction of any product, even one as aesthetically
sleek as the iPhone (or consumer technology in general), is dangerous and
doubtlessly comes with human costs. If we're getting upset at this, why not
use this to take issue with the production of other consumer products which,
doubtlessly, are made just down the road from the iPhone?

------
wtvanhest
Is someone actually dying due to Apple?

So far I have only heard about suicides but they do not seem to be above
global averages.

The working conditions could probably be improved but I really don't know
since all I read on the topic is sensationalistic.

~~~
smackfu
"Foxconn Explosion Kills Two, iPad Production Line Halted"
[http://gizmodo.com/5803963/would-the-foxconn-factory-
explosi...](http://gizmodo.com/5803963/would-the-foxconn-factory-explosion-
further-delay-ipad-shipments)

~~~
wtvanhest
So 2 people died total or are there more stori mes like this? 2 people of 1
million is a low percentage.

Surely there are a number of companies that kill far more people that a
petition would do more good for.

~~~
smackfu
Moving the goal posts. The question was whether anyone died besides the
suicides.

------
samstave
Conflict Diamonds == Suicide Technology

~~~
sp332
This isn't about the suicides (which actually are statistically lower at
Foxconn than in the rest of China). It's about working conditions that kill
workers.

