
Ask HN: Moving Out of Silicon Valley because of housing? Where to? - Apocryphon
Has anyone moved out of SF&#x2F;SV to work in a different tech city? If so, where?<p>Currently Seattle, New York, Austin, Portland, and Boston&#x2F;Cambridge seem to be the hot destinations as secondary tech hubs. But their costs of living are likely climbing as well, especially Seattle and Austin. How about Raleigh, how&#x27;s their startup scene? Or Chicago, Denver, New Orleans, or Nashville?<p>Not to mention cities outside of the U.S.
======
agentgt
I'm particularly biased as I went to school at GaTech but Atlanta has greatly
improved over the last decade or so.

It obviously has a completely different social, ethnic and economic diversity
than SF does as well as being far far more cost effective. It also has real
BBQ as well as being not that far from Miami (my favorite city but not good to
live/work in).

I would recommend Boston (where I currently live) except that it has brutal
weather, fairly caustic hospitality to new comers and is not that much
cheaper. Its great for college kids but no so much for early 30 somethings
hoping to own something some day.

If your are going to live in or near Boston I highly recommend Waltham, MA
where I currently live. Waltham is not as cool as parts of Boston or Cambridge
but its a hell of lot cheaper. Waltham has so many things to do. I can fish on
the Charles in the afternoon, walk down the river and watch a movie in the
local theater and then hit up the massive bar and restaurant scene all in the
same city with out hopping on the T or car.

~~~
dpeck
Atlanta has a lot of good stuff going for it, midtown area and the tech
village up in Buckhead have some promising startups.

Few other south eastern cities to add to OPs list:

Charlotte isn't bad either and has a similar if less developed vibe, lot of
financial business around there. People seem split on whether they like it or
Raleigh more, seems like a toss up.

For a smaller city Chatanooga has a lot going for it.

~~~
bwha
Second on Chattanooga. I help run a weekly lunchtime talk series. We've been
having pretty good turn outs. For our size we have a very active community.
Anywhere from 50 to 80 software professionals have been showing up every week.

OpenTable has offices here. There are a few startups and a decent number of
consultancies.

Come visit!

~~~
wprapido
will be visiting chattanooga soon. can you mail me more info at info [a]
wprapido [dot] com please

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spillihp
Want to put in a quick plug for Sacramento. Great quality of life here,
generally great weather (sometimes a little hot in summer, but sunny most of
the year), affordable housing with rents between $500 and $1,000 (and
affordable to buy a house - still good places available for under $300k), nice
neighborhoods, great amenities, bars, restaurants, all that. Good access to
awesome outdoors. And really easy to get to the Bay if need be. By Amtrak and
BART it takes me 2 hours 12 min to get from downtown Sac to Downtown SF -
regardless of traffic (and you can easily work - or drink a beer - on the
train). Given how much more affordable it is I am really surprised more folks
don't set up shop out here and just head into the bay on occasion / when need
be.

~~~
halpme
I went to UC Davis but would frequently visit Sac. It's such a beautiful and
laid-back city, and the people are great. SF is only a one hour drive away and
Lake Tahoe is relatively close too. I've been living in Mountain View for a
couple months and I miss the Davis/Sac area more and more as time goes on. The
atmosphere here is, I dunno, toxic. Too many people here size each other up
based on where they work and where they live and people are way too obsessed
with advancing their careers and chasing higher salaries, more luxurious cars,
nicer apartments, etc. Everyone seems to have some sort of inferiority complex
if they don't work for the "Big 4". People in Davis/Sac seemed less
superficial and it was a lot easier for me to make friends. Also, yeah, the
cost of living is so much cheaper. I'm paying $1700 for a tiny studio in MV.
Back in Davis I was paying $1400 for a pretty nice 2-bedroom apartment. Meh.

~~~
eclipxe
>The atmosphere here is, I dunno, toxic. Too many people here size each other
up based on where they work and where they live and people are way too
obsessed with advancing their careers and chasing higher salaries, more
luxurious cars, nicer apartments, etc. Everyone seems to have some sort of
inferiority complex if they don't work for the "Big 4". People in Davis/Sac
seemed less superficial and it was a lot easier for me to make friends.

Is this your own set of insecurities being projected on others? I never got
that sense in SV...

~~~
sheri
> Is this your own set of insecurities being projected on others? I never got
> that sense in SV...

I am not the OP, but I share his/her views. To the above point, maybe?

I used to perceive NY/Wall-Street as all about image, and SF/tech-scene to be
much more down-to-earth and friendly. I don't find that anymore. Taking
Caltrain, I see people wearing Google/FB/Twitter/XXX t-shirts, sweatshirts,
jackets, bags etc. Company badges are displayed prominently, and its easy to
recognize companies from the badge. YC t-shirts, sweatshirts are also common.
If not company t-shirts, then I see tons of MIT, Stanford, Caltech, Harvard
t-shirts, sweatshirts etc. I rarely saw any company or university branded
apparel in NYC.

The prominence of these in SV seems like a way to showcase an elite status.

~~~
nostrademons
I think you're reading into this based on how the rest of the world operates.
Most techies in Silicon Valley wear company schwag because it's free. My
wardrobe consists of (or has consisted of, my wife made me throw a bunch of
the older stuff out) T-shirts from Amherst, Brandeis, and Olin; a TellApart
T-shirt; a Medallia T-shirt; a Microsoft T-shirt; a Foliage Software Systems
T-shirt; at least 6 Google T-shirts; 2 Google hoodies; and then a bunch of
unbranded stuff I got as gifts. I don't think I've ever bought a T-shirt with
my own money.

~~~
JBlue42
Same in LA. A lot of crew t-shirts and other stuff given out at the end of
production. And the recently-graduated college students? College t-shirts
(sometimes sweatshirts in our 'winter').

------
relaunched
Minneapolis. - Affordable, great culture / food, low unemployment, tons of
public companies, rapidly growing startup scene (100 meetup groups)...If you
have kids it gets even better. The suburbs are amazing, with great parks,
schools, etc. Work life balance is the norm.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
+1 Minneapolis. I moved out of the city itself some years ago for more space
out in the country, but it is by far the nicest place I've ever lived. I found
myself wishing I had moved there 10 years earlier.

~~~
deanEkko
Another +1 Minneapolis. Just moved last year, cost of housing is so much less
and it's a great city with a lot to do year round. A small but successful and
growing startup scene. It's the 16 largest metro area in the US so there are a
lot of local tech jobs. If you can score a remote job earning SF/SV salaries
and live in Minneapolis, even the better...

~~~
prime09
+1 I moved from San Jose to Minneapolis last fall and couldn't be happier.

~~~
humbleMouse
I am a native of Minneapolis proper and I would say move here to South
Minneapolis. The suburbs suck and are absolutely terrible unless upper middle
class white bumpkins are your crowd. South Minneapolis and midtown are super
cool and you can still buy in before full gentrification kicks in.

~~~
OneOneOneOne
That's pretty harsh.

We wanted to move into S. Minneapolis but couldn't justify the high cost.
Instead we ended up in the (far) suburbs.

~~~
humbleMouse
It is pretty harsh, but I do think the suburbs around minneapolis are really
really crappy. All the food gets delivered off the back off US food trucks,
most people are openly racist and/or hickish, all the houses look like crap,
etc etc.

Which part of south minneapolis are you talking about? There is a big
difference between southeast and southwest.

I once played a hockey team from the suburbs when I was younger and one of the
players had a confederate flag on their helmet and called one of our black
players a nigger while on the ice. I am not making this up. Furthermore, all
of our minneaplis cops are from the suburbs and they routinely harass minority
people and think it's ok to shoot them in the face in north minneapolis.

I really think the minneapolis suburbs are elitist and racist. My source is
that I have lived here for over 20 years and now work in the shitty elitist
suburbs that I hate. I get a firsthand dosage of the institutionalized racism
and elitism every day of my life.

~~~
OneOneOneOne
I've heard some of this before. To me it is a little confusing since most
areas in Minneapolis and the inner ring suburbs are expensive compared to the
further suburbs.

My experience of the suburbs is different from yours.

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bkjelden
Seattle's housing costs are definitely rising but Washington's lack of an
income tax is a boon for software engineers. Also, many of the big players in
tech will pay within 10-20% of their bay area total comp packages in Seattle,
so your take home pay might be almost the same, but of course your dollar is
going to go a lot further.

I ran some numbers comparing Seattle, Denver, and Minneapolis, and found the
descending housing prices and ascending state income taxes more or less
cancelled each other out in my situation. Of course everyone's circumstances
are a little different, so this may not be true for everyone.

Seattle definitely seemed to have the best opportunities at the big players in
tech outside of SF/SV.

~~~
shostack
And how do you cope with the weather and lack of sun? One big draw for me
about the Bay Area is the weather. I realized how important nice weather was
for me to be happy, so I consider the sunshine tax a sunk cost for my mental
and physical well-being.

~~~
kelukelugames
I grew up in Cupertino and live in Seattle now. I used to live in an apartment
with very little natural light, that was awful. Now I live in a condo with
tons of light and feel better. Also fly down to Bay Area once a month for
work.

Seattle weather isn't that bad. During June through September it's the best in
the country. Just gray in the winters, doesn't really rain much.

Some other cons. Negligible start up scene. The Indian and Chinese food
stinks. Really homogenous for a coastal city. No NBA team.

~~~
calbear81
Where are you going for Indian and Chinese food? There's Din Tai Fung / Facing
East in Bellevue and some of my old haunts in the International District are
passable. Not as familiar with the Indian food scene outside of some places in
East Bellevue/Redmond but you should also try Edmonds/Lynwood for Korean food.

~~~
kelukelugames
hello fellow Cal Alum. Go bears!

DTF is overpriced. Facing East is standard Taiwanese which means tons of
sugar.

I used to drive to Lynwood and Federal Way for Korean, but my girlfriend
doesn't really eat meat so we don't eat Korean as much.

The only good Indian restaurants are in Renton.

~~~
whitegrape
Sichuanese Cuisine in Redmond near the Sears / Overlake Fashion Plaza is the
best I've had in the area. Health code violation shutdowns of the past just
make it more delicious.

~~~
mkching
Sichuanese Cuisine is very good.

La Bu La in Bellevue is also good.

Dough Zone is worth trying if you like DTF, but not as good imo.

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theli0nheart
My wife and I moved to Austin from LA about 3 years ago, and haven't looked
back. Prices are climbing here (as they are everywhere else), but since the
city is growing, the number of desirable areas continues to increase. I'd
highly recommend coming here. The city has a very laid-back culture, and
despite being relatively large, still isn't really overwhelming like other big
cities can be.

Our key reasons for coming here:

    
    
        1. Cost of living.
        2. No state income tax.
        3. Laid-back culture.
        4. Warm weather.*
    

Plus, you can't beat the BBQ.

* I feel required to add a qualifier to this bullet point, since so many people cite 100°F summer days as a reason to _not_ move here. I grew up in Miami, where it's humid to a fault, and 80° days there are about as uncomfortable as 100°+ in Austin. The heat really isn't that bad.

~~~
amerkhalid
100F days are perfect days to spend in the pool though.

~~~
doseofreality
But more likely they'll be spent in the office.

~~~
overdrivetg
I used to have to leave a winter coat at my desk (in Austin) at work in the
summer. Figure that one out!

~~~
doseofreality
I work in Austin, and I do the same thing albeit with a hoodie.

------
WhatsName
Vienna (Austria). Great living standard, lifestyle and housing prices are
growing, but regulated and mostly affordable. Fast growing startup and hacker
scene, backed and supported not only by accelerators, but also by ongoing
campaigns to support innovators and founders.

"Vienna named world's top city for quality of life" \-
[http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/23/vienna-
named...](http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/23/vienna-named-worlds-
top-city-for-quality-of-life)

~~~
captaindiego
Does anyone know easy is it to get a visa for working in tech/engineering
areas for Austria? Is something that's actually doable or is it more of a moon
shot moving from the US?

~~~
wprapido
it's much easier for you US citizens to get work visas (and a permanent
residence permit is automatic after 5 years) than it is for us EU citizens (or
for a matter of fact, just about everyone except canadians and mexicans) to
get a work permit in the US, while a green card is a tough call.

not sure about austria, but germany and spain give you a residence permit even
as a freelancer / entrepreneur, so these are good options to look into for
folks working remotely or working for themselves (freelancers, consultants,
startup founders, ...) and the process is pretty straightforward

might be good non-US destinations for these looking for something different

~~~
mlent
The only caveat about the freelancer/entrepreneur route is that you have to
prove that you have a bunch of money in the bank at all times. For example,
over 10K euros or something like this. Because as a freelancer, they want to
ensure that you are not going to become unemployed and have to live off the
system, presumably.

You also have the option to work in Germany at a real job, and thereafter
apply for a freelancer visa. I have heard that this is a lot easier than going
straight for the freelancer visa.

~~~
ido
When I was applying for the freelancer visa in Austria the requirement was
100k, not 10k. Not sure if a typo or if stuff changed.

~~~
wprapido
nah. it's 10k for germany. austria seems way more xenophobic and way more
hostile

~~~
rurban
Worked in all 3, Austria, Germany, US. Germany is indeed the best, but only if
you can work remote for a US company.

~~~
wprapido
german developer salaries are crap. in europe, only UK, switzerland and norway
pay better for developers (UK is pretty decent if you are a contractor), but
COL is fairly high, too

~~~
ido
My impression was that developer salaries were not much if any higher in the
UK than in Germany (currency fluctuation may have changed that at the moment,
but both seemed to be about 1/2 to 2/3 or US rates last I checked).

------
mikekij
San Diego is awesome. The cost of living is probably 30% less than the bay
area (I rent a 4 bedroom single family house for $2495), I live 3 miles from
the beach, and there are a fair number of tech companies in the area, focusing
primarily on healthcare and defense. And I love the outdoor activity
opportunities. Direct flights to SFO are about $140 round trip, or less.

~~~
whoa-duder
San Diego is cool, but I don't agree with the "fair number of tech companies".
I think there are very limited opportunities and a lot behind-the-curve
thinking in San Diego tech.

~~~
el_benhameen
Out of curiosity, what sort of behind-the-curve ideas have you seen?

~~~
whoa-duder
Maybe it's a pattern I've seen: people don't move to San Diego for a career,
they move for the lifestyle. Now I know there are a ton of bio-tech companies
and, yes, Qualcomm. But the cost-of-living is still high and San Diego
companies are notoriously stingy on salary (Sunshine Tax). Beside bio-tech,
what are the other dominant industries in San Diego? Some idea: military,
tourism, retail, etc. San Diego is awesome, but the tech opportunities don't
match the size of the city (8th largest in the US!).

~~~
boha
+1 to all of this.

I'm not in San Diego right now, but I've started projects and a company there,
and hired dozens of engineers from the talent pool. If you have are a decent
employer, you can have your pick of the litter . . . of bright, experienced
folks who are aggressively 9-5.

I'm not knocking 9-5ers. They're in the right place: San Diego is truly
paradise, and I support work/life balance more than I used to.

But the consistent high quality of life, and the large portion of talented
people who live there for it, will always suppress San Diego's entrepreneurial
aspirations.

Of course, if you are OK with less-than-leading-edge projects, or you are
aggressively seeking stability, I can't recommend it enough.

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djb_hackernews
Boston/Cambridge is hot but there has always been a strong tech scene here so
it's not so much up and coming. Cambridge is on top of their game, Boston is
doing really well despite its city government. The issue with the Boston area
is your COL is about the same as SF but your standard of living is a bit lower
due to the usual culprits (NIMBY, poor govt leadership, New England
conservatism, etc) and just plainly the housing stock is old. If I had to
guess I'd guess your money actually goes further in SF than in Boston because
you get newer construction, with bigger floor plans and more modern amenities.

~~~
voxic11
I would point out that there are many cheap places within the greater Boston
area. I pay 1,800 for a three bedroom in Somerville. It's only a 10 minute
walk from a redline station that will get you anywhere in the city quite fast.
You are totally right about the actual quality of the places available though.
Anything cheap will be 50-150 years old.

~~~
teej
How much do you pay for temp control at your place though? In Providence I
moved out of a 120 year old two-bedroom flat that cost me upwards of $300/mo
to heat in the winter and never got above 68.

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Vnjjkkll
NYC. Its still expensive obviously but more diverse. Not a mono-culture.
Cold/long winters are not much fun. But there are nicer small classic american
town in NY and Long Island, which can be affordable. Train commute is ok if
you can work remote a couple days per week and get some work done on the
trains. Beaches are close, skiing upstate is decent. Lots of opportunity in
NYC/Brooklyn. A very nice home (4 bedroom, good schools, 1 acre, pretty area)
can be had for under $1M.

~~~
jtreminio
> A very nice home (4 bedroom, good schools, 1 acre, pretty area) can be had
> for under $1M.

Holy shit.

A very nice home in DFW can go for ~$300k.

~~~
Vnjjkkll
Sure of course but probably salary is much less, and less other things to do,
etc. DFW is probably one of the best values and COL/salary ratios though.

~~~
Cshelton
Tech salaries are really strong in Dallas. The pay increase I'd get from
moving to SF or NYC would be offset and reduced further by taxes/COL.

------
jason_slack
I moved from Cupertino to very upstate New York about 15 months ago.

I was able to buy a house, on a lake, forest on all sides of me and I spent
less than $200,000 to buy the house, move, furnish a new place and remodel a
bit to my liking.

No startup scene here. For me, it was the slower pace of life, peace and quiet
and more time to work on my personal goals.

~~~
shostack
I feel like this is the dream, but the reality for many people is that they
need to be where the jobs are. For those who are not developers easily able to
get remote work, that's a major consideration.

What's the job market near you like? How long is the average commute? Those
are both major considerations for a lot of folks.

(PS I'm not criticizing you--major props for living your dream. I just think
that people read comments like this without giving these considerations much
thought)

~~~
JshWright
"Upstate New York" is a very large area. It would be tough to generalize...

I'm in the Syracuse area (smack in the middle of the state), and the local
scene is reasonably unimpressive (I work remotely, as do most of the folks I
know in the area). There is a bit of a tech job market 45 minutes east of here
in Rome, but that's mostly DoD related work (Rome Labs, etc). An hour and a
half south is Ithaca, which is a 'hippy' college-town (Cornell, Ithaca
College, and TC3), and has a bit of a startup scene, but again, nothing
huge... I'd certainly want to have something lined up before moving.

~~~
ryanSrich
I grew up in cuse and went to school at RIT.

Why I'd never go back: 1. Snow, 2. Taxes

Why I'd go back: 1. Insanely cheap 2. Hot plates

Thus is life.

~~~
JshWright
The snow is less of an issue lately (we only got ~6ft of snow this year in
Syracuse, thanks to a warm Pacific (yay climate change...)).

Con #2 is largely offset by Pro #1.

~~~
jason_slack
Yes, this winter was mild compared to last winter. I still have a lot of wood
and eco-bricks left over for next year!

------
seancoleman
Phoenix is often not included when discussing tech cities, and I think it's a
shame. I've lived here my entire life and have seen the startup and tech
scenes evolve and mature having started 2 companies here. Just in the past few
years, the number of quality startups and investments have soared and I
believe we're at the inflection point that will make Phoenix equitable to SV.

We have a low cost of living, affordable housing (I bought my first house at
21 and I wasn't rich) and the weather is amazing.

If you ever check out Phoenix, I'm happy to show you around.

Edit: It's even an easy transition. We also call this the valley (of the sun)!

~~~
jseliger
_Phoenix is often not included when discussing tech cities, and I think it 's
a shame_

I've spent time in Phoenix. It's the land of enormous roads and parking lots.
It's almost impossible to get anywhere without a car. Traffic is horrendous
all the time. There is barely a functioning downtown. The urban layout isn't
conducive to the density necessary to really sustain light rail. Yes, I know
about the line that goes from downtown to the airport to Tempe, and yes, it is
better than nothing.

The cost of living is low, but people prefer Austin to Phoenix or Dallas
because Austin has some there, there. It is striking to me how much Phoenix
does not resemble the ideal startup town Paul Graham describes in "Can you buy
a Silicon Valley?"
([http://www.paulgraham.com/maybe.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/maybe.html)):

 _It will be easier in proportion to how much your town resembles San
Francisco. Do you have good weather? Do people live downtown, or have they
abandoned the center for the suburbs? Would the city be described as "hip" and
"tolerant," or as reflecting "traditional values?" Are there good universities
nearby? Are there walkable neighborhoods? Would nerds feel at home? If you
answered yes to all these questions, you might be able not only to pull off
this scheme, but to do it for less than a million per startup._

Phoenix reflects "traditional values," as the horrific, racist elected sherrif
demonstrates:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio),
and it has few walkable neighborhoods.

~~~
shawkinaw
> Traffic is horrendous all the time.

I don't know where you got this, I live in Phoenix metro (Scottsdale) and
traffic is generally great except for rush hour, and even then it's just I-10
that is really bad. It's true that stuff is fairly sprawled, but I can
generally get _anywhere_ within 45 minutes, and the stuff I actually want to
get to in less than 30. Plus the airport is right in the middle instead of out
in the middle of nowhere, so it's much more accessible too.

As for the rest of your comment, well, OK then.

~~~
daodedickinson
PHX traffic is way better than LA and SF in my experience. And I much prefer
PHX because it is so much more car-friendly than LA and SF. But yeah, if you
don't like driving, avoid PHX and SLC.

------
cbanek
I just moved out of California to Las Vegas because of the housing prices. Las
Vegas cost of living is easily half that of LA/SF, and there's no income
taxes. This can especially be a boon if you're leaving a company where you're
exercising ISO options (you can exercise once you move to Nevada, and not pay
CA AMT tax).

I wouldn't say there's a lot of tech jobs, but there are some, and if you're
working remote, it's a great place with a lot of 24/7 life.

~~~
hardcandy
Las Vegas is an awesome option for remote workers who want to be close to SV.
It's a short, <$100 flight to SFO or OAK. No state income taxes. Fantastic
weather (dry desert heat with almost no humidity). Very cheap housing and
other COL. Access to the world's best entertainment. And pretty much wherever
you live in town you're no more than 20 minutes from LAS which is an
international airport serving tons of destinations.

~~~
cbanek
Great point that Las Vegas has a great road system, and not a lot of traffic
(also cheaper gas). It's a major city that can be escaped in 20 or 30 minutes
and be in some gorgeous natural areas (Lake Mead, Red Rock Canyon). I found LA
(and to a lesser extent SF) almost suffocating in how long it can take to get
out of the city.

------
hexadec0079
Repping Raleigh here. There is a decent startup scene and housing is very
reasonable. $1200 for a 2 bed/ 2 bath apartment with garage that is about 10
minutes from my office and less than 20 minutes to downtown.

Weather is nice and there are plenty of firms moving to the area. The only
downside is that traffic is increasing, but there is enough sprawl it is not a
huge issue. Startups are coming out of major universities and office space and
co-work spaces abound. Aside from the hot months and increasing traffic, it is
pretty great so far.

~~~
pjmorris
Shh! (Everything the parent said is true, and I agree.)

------
mjfern
I'm in Raleigh/Durham, NC. You have great universities here (UNC, Duke, NC
State, etc.), nice weather with 4 seasons, blossoming startup culture,
Research Triangle Park with Red Hat, SAS, and a variety of other big tech
companies with a significant presence, and relatively inexpensive housing! I
moved here 3 years ago from the Bay area for quality of life reasons. It's
worth a serious look. :)

~~~
monksy
> You have great universities here (UNC, Duke, NC State, etc.),

That information is only important if the individual has kids, and is within
2+ years of going to either UNC or NCState. (Also, assumes that they'll get
in)

~~~
crusso
Meh, you say "within 2+ years", but I've learned the hard way that you have to
think further ahead than that. I'd say that by the time my eldest turned 12,
it was way too late to think about moving short of a job crisis situation.
They have friends and track records with a ballet school, a softball team,
etc.

Whenever I even halfway get the itch to move and propose it to the family, I
am heartily disabused of the notion.

Luckily, I'm in Atlanta which is a fairly good all-around place to be: weather
isn't too extreme, healthy tech scene, convenient to some good schools, good
in-state lottery-funded scholarships, etc.

------
atomic77
In Canada, Montreal is a great city with reasonable living costs and a decent
tech scene (esp game development). Climate will probably scare away anyone not
originally from the east coast or midwest though.

Toronto and Vancouver, despite having some pluses, unfortunately can't be
recommended to anyone that cares about cost of housing.

~~~
raverbashing
I, unfortunately, will have to downplay this suggestion

If you don't know French some opportunities are not at your reach

There aren't a lot of positions, depending on the area, also the market seem
to put outsiders in 2nd place (basically anyone that's not from Quebec)

~~~
woud420
Although I agree with the downplaying of the suggestion, I really disagree
with the reasons.

Most companies I've worked with in Montreal, english is often the main
language in the office (almost to a fault) and companies are STARVED for
talent. It's very, very hard to hire people in Montreal, there's a lot of
competition (like pretty much anywhere else). Outsiders are very welcomed if
they bring well needed help.

However, salaries are very low, taxes incredibly high and while real estate is
affordable, don't expect to live close to the city or to have a lot of money
in your pocket at the end of the day.

~~~
atomic77
To address both comments - I didn't mean to suggest Montreal is the new
promised land, just to add some discussion of non-US locations that may hold
promise since the comments had been US-centric.

Most tech people working in the US likely will be shocked at how little tech
workers are paid in most of the rest of the world, including Canada. But not
everything is about absolute salary.

Montreal, imo, provides a well-balanced quality of life for a wide range of
demographics. Good schools and govt-provided health care for those with
families. Bilingualism for the culturally inclined. Nearby mountains and
wilderness for nature lovers. Unrivalled nightlife for the younger who want to
party it up. I don't know of another place that can offer all of those things
together.

~~~
Chris911
What do you think is the average software developer salary in Montreal?

~~~
auxym
Throwing a wild guess (not even in the industry), but I'd be pretty surprised
if it were above 100k. Or even 90.

To put this in perspective though, you can rent a reasonable 2BR for 800-1000,
even not that far from the city center. GF and I rent a 1BR a bit farther, but
still close enough that she can bike to her downtown work in the summer, for a
fair amount less than that.

------
HelloMcFly
Well, I'll give a plug for a different city: Atlanta. My wife and I moved from
Atlanta to Seattle a few years back, and while we love the PNW we're
definitely looking forward to moving back this summer. Seattle is wonderful,
but the traffic has gotten noticeably worse since we've been here, and housing
just never worked for us.

Atlanta has a lot of opportunity, including in the tech space. It's no Seattle
or SF, obviously, but it's a bit of a job oasis on the south. I also
personally feel like the city has about 5x the culture and character of either
Seattle or SF (where my wife lived for awhile), but that's probably a
preference on type of culture than absolute value of culture.

I'll miss all the craft brews of the PNW, but can't wait to be back near the
heartland of BBQ.

~~~
dkrich
Of course this is all a matter of personal preference, but as a former
Atlantan, I'm going to disagree.

My main gripes with the metro Atlanta area were:

-The traffic, which was the worst of any major city I've ever spent time in, and yes, I've spent time in L.A., New York, and D.C.

-Bland environment/lack of character. What I mean by this is that you're basically in a landlocked area that is best known for launching Coca-Cola, Chick-fil-a, and CNN. Not much unusual stuff to do in the area, so boredom can come on quickly.

-Full of transplants. For every person I knew who grew up in the area, I knew at least four that were from other states. This made the culture very boring and support for sports teams, etc. non-existent.

To be clear, there are many good things about Atlanta- it's close to Nashville
which is awesome, and you're a short flight to a lot of great places. Also,
the cost of living is fantastic for a major city. There are a number of
beautiful lakes and lots of greenery in the area as well. But all things
considered, it can get pretty boring.

~~~
HelloMcFly
On traffic: it's terrible, but Seattle is now worse than Atlanta in my
opinion. It wasn't like that when we first moved here, but it's like that now.
Neither place is great.

On lack of character: we can just agree to disagree on that. I find the
culture and character amazing, though it doesn't beat my favorite character-
rich cities of New Orleans and Charleston, SC. I never wanted for things to
do, and we went camping in the Appalachians regularly.

Full of transplants: that's going to be true of most recommendations on this
list. Seattle, SF, Portland, Bend, Nashville, Denver, Chicago, and on and on.
Not a negative for me, as I'm a transplant myself (I'm certainly never moving
back to Kansas).

------
ArtDev
Bend, Oregon. Direct flights to and from West Coast hubs. Active startup
scene.
[https://youtube.com/watch?v=KxhA2jopebQ](https://youtube.com/watch?v=KxhA2jopebQ)

Bend has already been "discovered". However, there is still affordable housing
and you can't beat the weather, beer scene and the outdoors here.

If you want to check it out, you can stay in my awesome big house when we are
traveling:
[https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/7497695](https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/7497695)

~~~
solipsism
Since this is getting a bit of a response... anyone in Bend living there with
small kids? We are in Oregon and are attracted to Bend, but the fact that it's
so isolated (far from major hospital systems, for example, which we
unfortunately have to take advantage of more than we'd like) makes us
hesitant. Also, we bounce between museums and acquariums and childrens'
museums on the coast, Portland, Salem, Eugene, etc, quite a lot, and out in
Bend your options seem much more limited.

I get that the great outdoors is really the thing to do in Bend, but our
children are very small (1 and 3), and we want to be outdoorsie but have to
work our way up to it. So I don't know how Bend would work for us. I'm curious
how others deal with small kids there.

~~~
davidw
Ours are a few years older than that, but you can certainly do outdoor
activities with kids, or trade off so one person goes to do something while
the other watches the kids.

We used to take our daughter rodelling (sledding) in Austria, for instance. We
had lots of fun!

It's certainly more isolated - for some people, that's a big negative. I'm
mostly ok with it. Being constantly rained on and seeing gray skies is a far
larger drawback.

------
chris_va
We just moved to Seattle from SF. Highly recommended, but as you say more
expensive than Portland (still 1/2 the price of the bay area). Cost follows
opportunity, and it is harder to find a tech scene in Portland.

NYC is a great place to live (have done so), and I would pick it over Seattle
(at least for a year or two) if you don't have kids, are young, and can afford
it.

Chicago is great, less tech than NYC/Seattle, so I would set up a job before
moving.

I would skip Denver, but I haven't spent as much time there. The city just
felt uninteresting. I liked Boulder, but it is a small town.

~~~
meritt
> it is harder to find a tech scene in Portland

I feel like you might just not know where to look. We have a very thriving
tech scene and it's growing very fast. 4,045 job opening as of now.
[http://portlandtech.org/](http://portlandtech.org/)

[http://calagator.org/](http://calagator.org/) is a great resource for
meetups, talks, round-tables, sessions, etc.

~~~
draw_down
I dunno, the tech scene is objectively much stronger up in Seattle. Doesn't
mean we don't have one, but it definitely is harder to find than Seattle's.

------
edwhitesell
My wife and I lived in Dallas for 5 years, then spent 18 months in the Seattle
area before deciding to move back to Dallas. Cost of living was _the_ deciding
factor.

Tech jobs are very easy to come by and the tech scene in Dallas has been
steadily growing over the last 7+ years.

~~~
Cshelton
+1 for Dallas.

I would consider Dallas over Austin, just from the sheer growth and potential
Dallas has. The tech/startup scene has exploded over the last 3 years. No
state income tax, low cost of living. Dallas also has the highest growth
percentage in the nation, it was 2nd behind Houston but the oil market killed
that real quick, so Dallas is on top. Literally all of my friends are from
Seattle, Denver, California, D.C., NYC...etc. You would not be alone moving
here...everyone else it too.

Also the central location is super nice, I'm a ~3 hours or less flight from
almost anywhere in the Continental US.

~~~
edwhitesell
I completely agree with your thoughts on Austin. To me, Austin has more of a
"Portland" vibe. But the growth (and potential growth) just isn't there. It is
in Dallas.

I guess I also should have noted in my first comment, prior to Dallas, we
lived in Boston. There was a fair amount of tech jobs there, but nothing
really "new". The tech scene never really seemed very strong either. Unless,
maybe, you were part of the student tech scene with MIT/Cambridge.

~~~
swozey
"But the growth (and potential growth) just isn't there."

I could pull up hundreds of articles on how Austin is in the top 1-5 in growth
in the USA so I'm not sure where you're getting this statement from. Not to
mention the growth is blatantly obvious if you live here and deal with
traffic, house shopping, or getting brunch on a Sunday.

I've been here 6 years and it feels like a completely different city now. But
I do live and work downtown.

[http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/moneybox/2015/0...](http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/moneybox/2015/05/21/population_growth_in_u_s_cities_austin_is_blowing_away_the_competition/cites_50.png.CROP.promovar-
mediumlarge.png)

[http://www.npr.org/2013/12/17/248757580/even-an-85-mph-
highw...](http://www.npr.org/2013/12/17/248757580/even-an-85-mph-highway-cant-
fix-austins-traffic-tangle)

~~~
edwhitesell
I agree Austin has had great growth. However, compared to Dallas, I don't
believe it will sustain. That's just my perspective of what I see/read in the
Dallas area and what I read about the Austin area.

~~~
swozey
If Austin stumbles and our market isn't based on Oil/Banking like
Houston/Dallas then I'm not sure that bodes very well for either of those
cities, unfortunately.

I think our failure if any will be due to poor public transportation and
traffic.

~~~
edwhitesell
> If Austin stumbles and our market isn't based on Oil/Banking like
> Houston/Dallas then I'm not sure that bodes very well for either of those
> cities, unfortunately.

Dallas is not based on Oil/Banking. Tech is leading (depending on where you
look) [0].

Then there are the lists of companies with headquarters in Dallas [1]. And the
Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex [2].

Those lists also don't include State Farm (8,000 employees) [3] or Toyota [4].

I don't see much of the same very-large "diversification" happening in the
Austin area. But, again, that's just based on what I read. I don't actually
"see" anything in Austin, as I don't live there. I have watched the new State
Farm towers in Dallas (Richardson) being built from my house 3 miles away.

[0] [http://www.city-data.com/us-cities/The-South/Dallas-
Economy....](http://www.city-data.com/us-cities/The-South/Dallas-Economy.html)

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org](https://en.wikipedia.org)
/wiki/List_of_companies_in_Dallas

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_in_Dallas/Ft...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_in_Dallas/Ft.Worth)

[3] [http://www.telecomcorridor.com/latest-news/state-farm-coo-
ne...](http://www.telecomcorridor.com/latest-news/state-farm-coo-new-
richardson-hub-move-in-ahead-of-schedule)

[4] [http://money.cnn.com/2014/04/28/autos/toyota-moves-
headquart...](http://money.cnn.com/2014/04/28/autos/toyota-moves-
headquarters/index.html)

Edit: formatting

~~~
swozey
The majority of the 18, including its #1 (which is #2 on the overall list),
Fortune 500s in DFW are Energy/Oil (Exxon #1). There's definitely TI and a
bunch of Airlines and Healthcare (which I totally forgot about). I'm not
putting down Dallas, I just hope it doesn't get really hurt by whats going on
in with energy/oil.

Houston is in a pretty scary position right now. When I drive through it, it's
absolutely insane how much development they've had over the last 5 years that
are Oil/Energy companies that you can see right off the highway.

Maybe you don't consider F500 the market, not sure that I do, but those
companies do employ a huge number of people. Austin only has HQs for 2, Dell
(44) and Whole Foods (264) but Austin is a very different market. People
absolutely loathe large chains here.

2 Exxon Mobil (Irving) * 12 AT&T (Dallas) 112 American Airlines Group (Fort
Worth) 124 Fluor Corporation (Irving) 130 Kimberly-Clark (Irving) 143
HollyFrontier (Dallas) * 146 J.C. Penney (Plano) 175 Texas Instruments
(Dallas) 203 Dean Foods (Dallas) 205 Southwest Airlines (Dallas) 262 GameStop
(Grapevine) 266 Tenet Healthcare (Dallas) 292 Energy Future Holdings (Dallas)
* 351 Energy Transfer Equity (Dallas) * 361 Commercial Metals (Irving) 341
Affiliated Computer Services (Dallas) 388 Celanese (Dallas) 404 Dr Pepper
Snapple Group (Plano) 473 Atmos Energy (Dallas) * 492 RadioShack (Fort Worth)
493 Wistron (McKinney)

Houston

4 Phillips 66 45 ConocoPhillips 64 Enterprise Products Partners 65 Sysco 77
Plains All American Pipeline 106 Halliburton 135 Baker Hughes 136 Fluor 144
National Oilwell Varco 167 Apache 174 Marathon Oil 200 Waste Management 233
EOG Resources 265 Kinder Morgan 310 Cameron International 334 KBR 343 Group 1
Automotive 344 CenterPoint Energy 381 Enbridge Energy Partners 397 Quanta
Services 417 FMC Technologies 435 Targa Resources 451 MRC Global 459 Calpine
475 Spectra Energy Not known Buckeye Partners Not known Noble Energy Not known
PVF Resources LLC

edit: Damn, the formatting is terrible. Sorry.

------
kevan_
Hijacking this a bit: for you folks who've relocated, how did you handle
getting connected to the tech community in your new city, and eventually
finding a job there? Did you find something beforehand (if so, how), or just
start interviewing once you're on the ground and established?

I've contemplated this before, and make a point to check out jobs in other
cities when I'm job hunting, but it's hard to ignore the local recruiters who
just send me local jobs out of the blue so I always end up staying where I am.
I'm currently in LA, and am somewhat interested in relocating to somewhere
with a similar/warmer climate, lower cost of housing, equivalent/better
outdoor recreation opportunities, and not-awful startup/software scene. I've
considered Denver, SLC, Bend, and Phoenix pretty strongly, but haven't found
anything that lines up yet.

~~~
MilnerRoute
I've always dreamed of picking a new city, and then hunting for a job there
until I found one. I did this once years ago, and the hardest part was just
flying out for interviews (from the old city to the new one) -- and then
obviously all the logistics of moving. But you only have to do it once.

If you know at least one person in your new city, it can really clear a lot of
the early confusion. (I once thought about posting a Craigslist ad offering a
free dinner to anyone who'd also come and talk to me about the city...) And
Meetups are a great way to find people who share your interests, whether it's
tech or a certain sport or even just going out to movies....

------
Siimteller
Guys at teleport.org are solving exactly that problem by pooling tens and tens
of data sources for living costs, transportation, crime, recreation etc. Check
them out.

------
brianwawok
I am biased but I liked Chicago. You can get a good house for a decent price.
If you want to raise a family though, inside the city schools suck - you have
to play a lottery or try to test into a good school or pay for private.

That said you won't find startup jobs like SF, a lot of the top paying jobs
like NYC are in finance.

~~~
shostack
Grew up and lived in Chicago most of my life. Moved to the Bay Area in 2013.

Key things to note about Chicago: \- The weather is all extremes (extreme
cold, extreme hot, extreme humidity) barring a few nice weeks during spring
and fall

\- The government is beyond horrible (just check this stat on the
conviction/jail rate for our mayors[1])

\- From what friends who still live there tell me, the crime has only been
getting worse, even in nicer neighborhoods

\- Traffic is miserable and while there is decent public transit, it all goes
to hell during a sports game (try taking the Red Line home during a Cubs
game...I'd have to let five trains pass before I could squish myself into a
car that was literally packed to the door)

\- House prices may be a bit cheaper than the Bay Area, but pay sucks in
general. Wages seem to have not climbed much at all in recent years

\- Fully agree about the schools. I was fortunate enough to go to Latin, but
the lottery is really scary in terms of what you could end up with school-wise

While I have lots of family and friends there, and will always have a place in
my heart for Chicago, I didn't realize how much it drained me emotionally and
physically to live there until I moved to the Peninsula. Now I'm not
constantly watching over my shoulder when I walk around my neighborhood, and I
can be outside for most of the year. That last part was huge as I realized
that sun is really critical for me to be happy and I wasn't getting enough in
Chicago. While my overall Cost of Living is much MUCH higher out here, I'm
ultimately happier, and that is what matters. Plus, if I ever were to move
back somewhere cheaper, having a high salary is a great point to start
negotiating from even if you need to go down a little.

[1] [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/30/illinois-
governors-...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/30/illinois-governors-in-
pri_n_2581182.html)

~~~
monksy
>\- From what friends who still live there tell me, the crime has only been
getting worse, even in nicer neighborhoods >\- Traffic is miserable and while
there is decent public transit, it all goes to hell during a sports game (try
taking the Red Line home during a Cubs game...I'd have to let five trains pass
before I could squish myself into a car that was literally packed to the door)

Solution don't live along the redline.

The services offered by some of the CPS schools far exceed what you'd get
elsewhere.

~~~
shostack
> "Solution don't live along the redline"

That's an easy statement to make that conveniently ignores the fact that the
Redline is one of the major transit lines in the city because it goes to where
there are a ton of jobs. I was fortunate in that I could also take the Brown
line at some points when I lived there, and there are plentiful bus options,
but the reality is that when there's a Cubs game, good luck commuting home if
you live on the North Side, regardless of where you work.

------
codecamper
Maybe everyone leaving should just agree to locate somewhere that isn't some
major city.

We can all go there & start a new tech scene. How about Wyoming? Or Montana?
Utah?

What I mean is we should go somewhere beautiful. Somewhere we can take walks
outdoors in between coding sprints.

Why walks? It's been scientifically shown that walking helps you remember
things better. Also sitting too long shortens your lifespan.

Just some thoughts.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Utah already has a tech scene - not as happening as SV or even Denver, but
there is one, in Orem and Salt Lake.

You've got ski resorts 45 minutes from town - or hiking, fishing, and mountain
biking in the summer. The quality of snow makes most other ski places look
pretty bad, too. (They call it the greatest snow on earth for a reason.)
You've got pretty sane living expenses, including housing, at least compared
to SV/SF. And you've got... uh...

Well, you've got a rather dominant religious culture, especially in the Orem
area. (Most everywhere has coffee available in the lunch/break room. That
existed in Orem, too, but in Orem, it felt like religious tolerance.) Forget
smoking a joint; you can have trouble finding a stiff drink.

Oh, and if you like rain, this may not be your place. 15-20 inches a year,
counting the water equivalent of snow in the winter.

~~~
whitegrape
What do techies do in Utah for after-work social gatherings, Mormon Bridge? I
should know since I come from Utah valley myself, but I got out to Seattle as
soon as I could and there weren't many peers into programming for a living
while I was in school there. I don't drink but my current company has a huge
alcohol culture, kegs-in-the-office, weekly-happy-hours sort of thing, and as
far as I can tell this is pretty normal everywhere in San Francisco and
Seattle (such that I'm not even sure if we're that extreme). I enjoy sit-down
dinners with coworkers but if I were back in Utah I have a feeling that
heading up the canyon and cooking some meat over a fire with some light
wandering wouldn't be out of the question...

------
jerf
As you point out, there's a lot of options; you've only really even scratched
the surface. Some guidance on your interests (both professional and
recreational/social), skills, and desires would be helpful.

I sometimes wonder, do people think that the rule is that you have to post an
Ask HN, then you're not allowed to interact? Go ahead, interact!

For that matter, if you've got a similar question but you're not the OP, post
your own answers to my questions and see what develops.

~~~
Apocryphon
Thanks for the consideration! Right now I'm mostly curious than actually
planning on moving anytime soon, so I was asking for general recommendations.
I'm in mobile development and I'm a single twenty-something male. I think
generally any city with a mature enough software industry that has need for
app developers would be acceptable. For the sort of "hacker environment", it's
good if there are meetups/local dev scenes.

But in general, I think the criteria are:

1) Affordable cost of living 2) Access to variety of software jobs (big
corporate vs. small startups both present) 3) Reasonable commute 4) Vibrant
city life (nightlife, food/music/arts scene) OR easy access to outdoor
activities

I think 2) and 4) are the reasons why most people flock to S.F. and stay,
despite the lack of 1) and 3).

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Salt Lake City has 1, 2, and 3. 4, not so much.

~~~
klean92
SLC is 45 minutes away from some of the best ski resorts on the planet: Alta,
Snowbird, Deer Valley, Park City... If you like skiing, it counts as
outdoors!!

------
mcone
Pittsburgh. Housing prices are ~20% below the national average and we have a
growing technology sector with CMU and offices for Google, Apple, and Uber
employees. Some startups here, like Duolingo. This is technically the rust
belt, but you can still find "big city" amenities with a small town feel.

~~~
dougb
I second Pittsburgh. I moved from Cambridge to Pittsburgh 10 years ago after
my first child was born. I have had no trouble finding interesting projects to
work on at decent pay. I live in a great neighborhood (Point Breeze) and my 3
kids go to a good school.

Cambridge was great when I was single, but after I got married and had a kid,
it didn't look that great. Once I started looking for a place to raise a
family, the only affordable options had killer commutes. Pittsburgh is great
for families. I highly recommend it.

------
jlaurend
Been in Milwaukee for the past year and I have to say -- Milwaukee is
underrated. We came from Boston to do an accelerator, gener8tor, in Madison
(also a great city worth looking at) and ended up here.

* Cost of living is low and quality of life is high. * People know how to have a good time and there's always something to do (sports are huge - Packers, Brewers, Bucks, college sports, etc). * Summer is AMAZING. There's an incredible number of festivals going on (with summerfest at the forefront). * Commutes are super short. * Lake Michigan is awesome. * Chicago is only 75 minutes away by train or car. * The startup scene is on the rise.

The downsides are:

* Cold winters (comparable to Boston with less snow but colder winds). * While not necessary, a car is desirable. * The tech scene is relatively small. (But growing!)

~~~
lastofus
If coming here as a software developer, something to keep in mind is that a
majority of the dev jobs here are .NET.

------
nhumrich
There are a lot of startups in Salt Lake, UT. Billboards everywhere looking
for devs. I really am surprised it never gets mentioned on posts like this.
Salt lake area cost if living is about the same as Austin I believe l, but
based on the fact that it isn't as well known that it is truly a tech hub,
cost probably won't rise nearly as quickly as the other places. It has
recently been called *Silicon Slopes" by Google (when they installed Google
fiber), if that's not enough proof idk what is. Also Utah might be the first
state to have Google fiber in two different cities. (Provo, and talk of Salt
lake)

~~~
jsonmaur
Google Fiber is already under construction in Salt Lake. +1 for Utah--not just
Salt Lake, but Ogden and Provo as well. An awesome startup scene, and very low
cost of living. Plus SLC is the only city within a few hours of some of the
best skiing, hiking, and red rock in the country.

------
Balgair
Make sure to skip Denver. Nothing but stoners and Peyton fans. Terrible place
to live.

~~~
TallGuyShort
This is pretty garbage advice. There are a lot of tech companies especially
just south of downtown Denver, and a reasonable start up scene in Boulder. I
get 20-30% of the quantity of recruiter emails from Denver / Boulder / Ft
Collins companies compared to what I used to get in the Bay Area. It's a lot
less, to be sure, but still sustainable for a good career. Good meet ups too.
There are pockets of stoners especially since legalization, but less so than
the Bay Area most of the time.

~~~
rrival
He's kidding... You must not live in CO? It's the line out here. Anti-town
building, too many people are moving here already because it's so great, so
spread the word that it's buried in snow, full of potheads and hippies. These
are not the towns your looking for. Move along, move along.

~~~
shostack
What are the best areas to live in these days if you want a smallish downtown
in walking distance and a decent commute to the most job options?

I hear Boulder home prices rival the Bay (while pay does not), but not sure
about the surrounding areas.

~~~
rpedela
Boulder city home prices are ridiculous however the surrounding area
(Louisville, Broomfield, etc) is more reasonable especially when compared to
the Bay Area. However home prices along US-36 (main corridor between Boulder
and Denver) are starting to increase rapidly.

In my experience, software engineering pay is plenty if you factor in the
cheaper cost of living compared to Bay Area.

------
bazqux2
Panama City Panama. Zero tax on foreign income. If you continue contracting
for US companies all of your income will be foreign.

It makes a huge difference. I paid over 40% in tax in SF. Tons of tech people
are doing it as they can more easily work remote and are already competing on
a global stage. I've joined a share house of foreign tech workers who all
doing the same thing for the same reasons. It is in one of the luxury
apartment complexes.

* Note: Americans will still own the IRS money if they earn more than $100K. It's still worth doing. I'm not an American.

~~~
realbarack
How's the internet? I'm really interested in working remotely from Central
America but worry that it'd be challenging to find reliable fast
connections—at least in places that aren't downtown centers.

~~~
bazqux2
My plan is to live in a downtown center. Panama has pretty good internet.

------
cscharenberg
Salt Lake City. Tons of jobs with expanding companies, both big old ones and
hungry new ones. Beautiful scenery, low cost of living, pleasant people.

I just moved here 4 months ago and it's great. If you like hiking, national
parks, outdoorsy stuff, Utah is almost unmatched for beauty and nice climate.

------
jlb_hn
I'm moving to Austin in 3 weeks! We just moved here 7 months ago, but for a
family it's just not a good quality of life, unless you are already rich :/

------
feathj
Salt Lake City. We have a ton of tech money being dumped into our state, and
we just don't have enough engineers to fill seats. Low cost of living, lots of
outdoor activities. I work < 20 mins away from world class ski resorts.

------
LogicX
Myrtle Beach, SC.

Unlikely place.

Cost of Living is ridiculously low, right by the ocean, big city amenities,
due to the short summer tourist season. Great weather, inexpensive flights to
Northeastern Cities. I outline some of this on the (now out of date)
[http://WhyNotTheBeach.com](http://WhyNotTheBeach.com) site.

There's no tech scene to speak of. So you have to be a remote worker to get
the value. I maintain a list of remote job opportunities:
[http://LX.tc/positions](http://LX.tc/positions)

Interestingly it's growing organically due to people having their parents
retire here. And then either needing to move here to take care of them, or
just discovering the city when coming to visit.

------
linuxlizard
Boise has some good, small tech firms. Great area for quality of life.

~~~
Naritai
Is it still a Micron-dominated monoculture? That one company had way too much
influence when I lived there.

~~~
cweagans
When did you live here? It's changed quite a bit over the last 5-7 years.
There's a real startup scene here now.

~~~
Naritai
I moved to SF in 2007, so yes it's entirely possible the culture has changed.
I'm genuinely interested in how it's change though.

~~~
cweagans
Since 2007:

* We've cultivated a startup-friendly business community. I remember 2007 - the only tech "community" we had was when HP or Micron had engineering dept mixers. It was kind of sad.

* There's been some VC activity in Boise - I know of a handful of startups that have gotten angel funding or their series A from local investors. It's nowhere near the scale of what's in Silicon Valley, but it doesn't need to be. Everything is cheaper here.

* We have a real coworking space now. I think the Watercooler was around in 2007, but I never really thought of that as a coworking space. It was more of a office space rental that was somewhat targeted at startups, but kind of still had the same mindset as any other office space. idk. Anyway, we have Trailhead now, which is a really great environment for startups, remote workers, or freelancers. Really cheap too - it's like $30/mo.

* There's a large number of technology specific meetups now. Angular, Python, PHP, .NET just to name a few.

* I can't remember if Boise Code Camp was a thing in 2007, but it is now. It's an annual tech camp run by BSU and handful of other orgs in Boise. The quality of the sessions has been pretty high the past couple years.

To me, it feels like a much different environment for startups and tech
businesses in general, but I'm not entirely sure how to quantify that beyond
the points that I mentioned above.

------
ChuckMcM
I've spent some time in Denver and I could easily see moving there full time
from the SF Bay Area. That said, I like camping and hiking in my spare time
which Denver has in abundance, and it has Sparkfun just outside of Boulder for
your tech toys urges.

Denver is more of a burgers and beer town from a culinary perspective, but it
has lots of young people and downtown is very walkable. Also, unlike the bay
area, they have a pretty functional transit system. You could totally live
there without a car.

~~~
awschnap
Must disagree on the culinary scene. We have everything you could want, from
hole-in-the-wall ethnic to fine dining, though we are most definitely a beer
town.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Fair enough, I had a heck of a time finding decent indian food in downtown
other than at a single food truck that parked over by Wazee and 15th. And
while Illegal Pete's made some decent burritos, having lived in the Bay Area
for so many years, they were not competitive.

That said, the characterization comes from mostly riding the 16th street free
shuttle and exploring by dropping into restaurants all around downtown, and
often their "big thing" or specialty was a burger of some sort. Could be
survivor bias though.

------
cableshaft
I've been fighting to stay in Chicago and it's been difficult to get the next
job when you're between jobs quickly (lots of recruiters that are really good
at wasting your time here), and it's even harder to find advertised salary
ranges where you want them to be (tech salaries are really depressed here
compared to elsewhere).

I've been trying to stay here because it took me forever (as an introvert) to
build a strong social circle and those people support me a lot in my creative
endeavors, so I'm disinclined to leave and have to start all over again
elsewhere.

The food here is excellent, though. With the exception of seafood (which
tastes fine, but not nearly as fresh as on the Bay), just about every cuisine
you can think of has a quality representative or two nearby (even in the
suburbs, where I live).

The suburbs also has plenty of forest preserves to explore, if you're into
hiking and trees (which I am also).

Housing prices are reasonable, depending on where you look. You can get a good
home for ~$200k-230k in the suburbs if you keep an eye on the market and
you're quick to make an offer.

~~~
monksy
What kind of work are you looking for?

As far as recruiters. There are some recruiting groups that are absolutely
garbage. (There is even one named after the redline stop that the Cubs play at
which is really shit) You'll just have to weed out the bad ones to find the
good ones.

~~~
cableshaft
I know not all recruiters are bad, but I'm mainly venting frustration at the
last two times I had to look for work, which had several months of
unemployment as recruiters kept calling me all day every day about various
potential jobs, and then interviews almost getting set up but then cancelled
for changing requirements or other crap, or I'd get an interview and do well
but the company would take forever to set up a second interview (and the
recruiter knew they worked that way), or they kept trying to get me to
relocate on my dime which I couldn't afford and didn't really want to relocate
anyway.

I did get my current job through a recruiter, and he was very professional,
polite, communicative, so not all experiences have been bad, just a ton of my
time got wasted when I really badly needed a job and my finances were getting
screwed pretty badly.

If I were looking I'd be interested in getting back into mobile development in
a senior role, preferably with opportunities to work from home periodically,
especially if it's downtown. I've been learning React Native in my spare time
in preparation for when I'm ready to get back into the mobile scene.

My current job is just right up the street, the boss is nice, and pays decent
so my main concerns are it's not mobile development and it's not looking like
I'm likely to get promoted to a senior role here anytime soon because there
are many talented people on the team who have been here longer and would
probably get promoted before me.

------
eorge_g
Here's an HBR article talking about New Orleans push to become a relevant hub
and the difficulties of stealing mindshare from "the big three":

[https://hbr.org/2016/03/what-makes-new-orleans-a-startup-
cit...](https://hbr.org/2016/03/what-makes-new-orleans-a-startup-city-to-
rival-the-big-three)

~~~
mikestew
They're not trying very _hard_ to steal mindshare with only a half dozen jobs
(three of which are actually dev jobs) listed on Craigslist. Seattle has page
after page of software jobs on CL. I'd totally consider a move to NOLA, but
I'm not packing my bags just yet.

I mean, seriously, is the article just BS? Even my old stomping grounds of
Indianapolis (a.k.a., "Naptown", a.k.a, "you'll be writing code for an
insurance company") has twelve _pages_ of software jobs, and NOLA has six jobs
_total_? Did I look in the wrong spot
([http://neworleans.craigslist.org/search/sof](http://neworleans.craigslist.org/search/sof))?
Is my single data point a poor representation of the market?

~~~
totalrobe
NOLA is oil, food, and booze. No tech options unless you're in Chem/Process
Engg.

~~~
tchouptalk
[http://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2013/05/23/the-
cities...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2013/05/23/the-cities-
winning-the-battle-for-information-jobs/#4831c0e42059)

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2014/04/03/americas-n...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2014/04/03/americas-
new-brainpower-cities/#22017e072c6b)

~~~
totalrobe
They don't go into details on available jobs but I would speculate that these
graduates are working in either in hospitality/food service, which recovered
after katrina, or petroleum, which increased dramatically with the expansion
of the shale and fracking technologies in the US.

------
nether
2015 article comparing programmer salaries in various major cities adjusted
for taxes and cost of living: [http://tgeonetta.com/cost-of-living-vs-salary-
best-cities-fo...](http://tgeonetta.com/cost-of-living-vs-salary-best-cities-
for-software-developers-and-engineers/). Austin comes out on top.

------
kaishiro
I'm from the US, down here in Melbourne, via Shanghai, via Boston, via NY. Had
no idea what a vibrant tech scene they had on my way down. Envato, Fastmail,
and Atlassian give the city some cachet. I contract primarily with US
agencies, and if that's the case you just need to set the tone early on with
regard to availability. Neat city though.

~~~
_kyran
Redbubble, 99designs, BugHerd and Flippa are some other international
products/companies that come to mind.

~~~
kaishiro
Ah, no shit. Had no idea BugHerd was down here too. I use them.

------
CodexArcanum
I've been living in New Orleans for the last year, and I'd have to say it's
been great. NOLA is a blossoming place, with lots of startups and a rapidly
growing tech scene. The culture is incredible, full of its own unique charms,
delicious food, and vibrant music.

I don't know, maybe it's not for everyone, but I love it!

------
iends
I live in Raleigh and the startup scene is growing both downtown and
especially in Durham next door. There is also a large corporate presence here
too in a variety of industries so the job market is pretty solid.

If you want to work in an obscure stack, Raleigh isn't the best place to find
jobs. Right now things are Java, C#, C++, Ruby on Rails, Python, & JavaScript.
About 7 years ago I had trouble finding Python jobs. There are a few (think
2-3 companies) Scala jobs, a few Go jobs, etc but your company pool is much
much smaller. It seems like SFO has much more opportunities for less
mainstream stacks.

I think because of cost of living you can make 120k and that goes much much
farther than 180k in SFO.

~~~
Apocryphon
Any mobile?

------
wprapido
my vote goes to denver! affordable, laid back, socially liberal, safe, no huge
social gap like in SF, very friendly people, great outdoors, growing tech
startup ecosystem

~~~
pilom
You haven't figured it out yet but as a Denverite, you're supposed to tell
people not to move here. It's so awesome here we don't like to share.

~~~
wprapido
lol indeed. ;) i'm an ex denverite who keeps going back at least once a year

------
Alex3917
New York isn't that expensive if you're willing to commute 45 min to work.
It's only really bad if you want to live in a trendy apartment in a trendy
neighborhood, otherwise it's very affordable.

------
gravypod
If you have enough money to start working remotely there are a few places that
I want to move to.

    
    
      - Alaska: Pay you to stay, land is cheap, I like the cold.
      - PA: Land is cheap, I like the cold, next to Philadelphia
      - Poland: Everything is cheap:  1 zł is 0.25 USD, great food and amazing nightlife. 
      - India: 1 USD ~= 70 rupies, amazing food and culture
    

Every one of these places has its pros and cons, but they have all relatively
nominal crime rates as well as some really cool food and people.

Edit: Forgot to mention Italy, but then you have to deal with the EU and VAT.

~~~
dpc_pw
Poland is UE&VAT.

~~~
gravypod
But Poland's local economy is so cheap that I don't even count that as a
factor. There are few comfortable places to live where you can buy bread for
.30 USD a loaf, and Poland is one of them.

I'm also Russian and a lot of Polish food looks familiar to me. That's why
it's a in my top three.

~~~
smarinov
Biased, but try Bulgaria. IMHO currently only Bucharest can (somewhat) compete
as a SW/startup hub in the region. HW is generally weak throughout the
Balkans, though.

~~~
Intimatik
I've been working in Bucharest for a while, this place is toxic if you plan a
start a family or long-lasting relations.

I can recommend it to anyone who's single, Balkan girls look great.
Unfortunately, I'm married with kids =(

~~~
smarinov
Why do you find it toxic for starting a family or long-lasting relationships?
:/

------
pkinsky
I really like the idea of moving somewhere outside the US with better work-
life balance norms, such as the fabled 6 weeks of vacation mandated by
Germany. Has anyone done this?

~~~
vancouverwill
Most of Europe and Australia give you a month plus of vacation but you do need
to factor in less pay than the US.

------
wpeterson
I've been living in Mountain View for several years, but we're moving back to
Boston in a month.

We can get a house 3x as large for 2/3 the cost and have a much better quality
of life.

~~~
650REDHAIR
"and have a much better quality of life"

If you like snow.

~~~
wpeterson
Much better quality of [everything but weather]

------
brianbreslin
So what are your criteria? Do you have a job you'll be working remotely from?
Looking for a new job?

I would chose in order of preference \- Quality of life factors (life is about
living, not about working) \- Cost to income ratio \- How interesting the
place is \- Local job market \- How accessible the place is (airline hubs
rule, travel the world)

I'm happy to answer any questions regarding Miami, or @afontaine can as well.
However I don't know if Miami is a good fit (I'm clearly biased)

------
peterarmstrong
I've worked remotely for Silicon Valley companies from Victoria, Canada, and
it's great, even though the startup scene is just in its infancy. Same time
zone, housing isn't insane like the valley or like Vancouver, beautiful
climate, good university, etc. The largest drawback is that once you're ready
to do your own startup, VCs are all "Victoria? WTF? You can't build a real
company there...", so you're stuck bootstrapping...

~~~
hkmurakami
Visited Victoria last year for the first time and I loved it.

------
tnash
Columbus, OH is pretty great. The Dublin Entrepreneurial Center has cheap
office space and access to the Metro Data Center on the same floor. There are
a couple nice co-working spots too like 400 West Rich.

We have a burgeoning food scene that gets better every year. Cost of living is
pretty cheap, we have an NHL team (not to mention NCAA powerhouse OSU), new
apartments are going up seemingly everywhere, and Amazon's building a data
center here.

~~~
sharemywin
OSU has a pretty good engineering school. Lot's of fortune 500 companies. If
you want to disrupt insurance it's Cols, OH or Des Moines, Iowa (both have
large insurance presences). Lot's of Tech Jobs, some start up activity but the
state is pretty risk adverse.

[http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2015/09/13/...](http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2015/09/13/columbus-
fares-best-in-recession-recovery.html)

------
Osiris
Denver/Boulder (Colorado) has a really strong technology and startup
environment. There are some well-known technology companies based here.

In fact, Denver recently ranked as the #1 Best Places to Live[1]

[1] [http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_29585428/denver-
no-1-u-s-n...](http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_29585428/denver-no-1-u-s-
news-best-places)

------
fhardaway
Or Phoenix, where I have lived for years after selling my SV home in 2010
because of traffic and living costs. We have an amazing tech community in
Phoenix that has come together to work on cybersecurity, bioindustry, health
care, edtech and SaaS. The weather is great, housing is inexpensive, and we've
got Blue Apron, Uber, and all the stuff you need.

------
RIMR
Move to Cleveland Ohio. Rent might as well be free.

Not a lot of good work or recreation, but you could buy a house for the same
cost as a year's rent in SF.

------
error53
From San Francisco to Berlin. Housing is affordable and the startup scene is
growing really quickly. Food is great and beer is outstanding. Full of young
people and interesting events. The tech community is growing pretty quickly.

Only two things that are really bad: \- payment network \- internet network

------
MalcolmDiggs
I moved from SF to LA, and then to NYC. All great places, but all very pricey.

If I was looking to keep costs down, I'd take a serious look at New Orleans.
Obviously purchasing a house there might be riskier (since much of the city is
below sea level), but they've got a burgeoning tech scene, lots of media
companies, and the culture+food can't be beat.

------
fredgrott
What one can find is that if you are in another state bordering a big city you
often can get huge savings at least in the USA..

An example, work in Chicago but reside in NW Indiana..guess what a house costs
in NW Indiana? $250k and with rentals at $900 I am sure you can figure out
that in a few years the house is paid for in cash and no mortgage to speak
of...

------
diiq
Consider Michigan: both Detroit and Grand Rapids are affordable, tech-
friendly, and pleasant to be in.

~~~
suyash
+1 for Detroit. Low cost of living, downtown life is happening and lot's of
startup and co-working spaces doing well.

~~~
lucidrains
Yes, Detroit is awesome, please move there

------
spaceotter
I live in New Orleans and really div there tech scene. The cost of living is
great. The best thing is probably the culture. It's not like any other place
I've ever lived and you'll never lack for festivals or parades.

------
cyanbane
Alpharetta, Ga (or Atlanta in general). It's great. Home prices are not
terrible, taxes are not bad, great schools & people are friendly. Only real
problem is traffic - staggered commutes and working from home can mitigate
that.

------
SeaDude
Although everyone mentioned the cities covered in this resource, i'm sure
vice'll create more soon:
[http://www.vice.com/cityguides](http://www.vice.com/cityguides)

maybe useful

------
amyjess
I'm fond of the Dallas area, especially the suburb Richardson.

Lots of tech jobs here, and the cost of living is very low (if you're paying
more than $0.75 per square foot here, you're paying too much).

------
horv
I haven't seen anyone specifically comment on Nashville so I figure I'll chime
in and give you my $.02.

I did my undergrad at Vanderbilt in Nashville, moved to Mountain View for two
years to work at Google and moved back a year ago after realizing living in
California didn't work for me.

Pros: \- No state income tax in Tennessee \- Tons of stuff to do. There's way
more than just Honky Tonks and country music. Professional football and hockey
teams and a decent minor league baseball team. People go to the symphony and
see shows at TPAC regularly. The Frist usually has interesting art exhibits,
as does Cheekwood (also a botanical garden). If you prefer to be outdoors,
there are plenty of places to hike, climb, kayak, etc. It might not be quite
as striking as Yosemite or Marin, but the nature here is still quite
beautiful. \- Housing is cheap (relatively). A lot of people (short and long
timers) have taken to complaining about housing prices recently, and to be
fair they have gone up quite a bit from where they were. It's not as cheap as
Chattanooga or other smaller cities but it's still _very_ affordable compared
to California. I recently closed on a house just using money I saved from
working in CA for my down payment. \- Growing tech scene. It's really night
and day even from when I graduated 3 years ago. Tons of meet ups and the
community is really awesome. A growing number of companies - and the companies
here tend to be more focused on actually growing a business instead of just
hitting a valuation. \- Food. Awesome restaurant scene. Obviously more BBQ and
Southern focused though. \- Friendly. People in Nashville are very friendly. I
think this is immediately noticeable, but I enjoy having conversations with
random people I run into. \- Centrally located. They've added direct flights
to the Bay Area recently, and you're a day's drive from a good chunk of the
eastern half of the country (you can get to Chicago, Oklahoma City, New
Orleans, Orlando, or Buffalo within a day's drive).

Cons: \- Davidson County schools aren't great. Lots of people with kids live
in other counties and commute in to get better schools. \- Traffic. This isn't
as bad as other major metro areas, but depending on where you live it can be
significant. \- Not very walkable. There are a few areas that are walkable (12
South, Hillsboro, places in East Nashville) but you need a car. Public transit
is pretty bad.

Neutral: \- More conservative state politics. Nashville is fairly liberal, but
there's definitely still a conservative bent at the state level. I put this in
neutral because I don't think it's all bad (remember, no state income tax) but
you may end up getting upset about state legislation. \- Weather. Really hot
summers. Winters aren't too bad. Occasional snow, and it can actually get
chilly. Lots of rain (compared to CA). I don't think this is bad because I
actually enjoy having seasons. \- Big healthcare focus (both small and large
companies).

tl;dr - Nashville is awesome, and I'm really happy I moved back. It's not as
easy as the Bay Area to job hop, but I'm not worried about finding work when I
do decide to make a jump.

~~~
vermosi
As someone who was born and raised in Tennessee, I wholeheartedly agree with
the above. I myself was raised about an hour south of Nashville, and currently
am a relatively new developer, but the dev culture here is very vibrant,
especially in the Hillsboro area, or The Gulch.

To comment on some things from the above:

Yes the weather is wonky here, one minute it might be snowing, the next it'll
feel like spring/summer. (Like it has the past couple of weeks here.)

Traffic? Not terrible by any means, just have to give yourself extra time if
you're having to go anywhere during rush hour (7-8am / 5-6pm).

Job market? We've got some great startups popping up, but mostly medical from
what I can tell, most of my development work has been for something involving
medical or a startup.

Environment? Tennessee is absolutely beautiful, we got everything from
Mountains in East TN, the delta and Mississippi River in West TN, we have
caves, lakes, rivers galore, beautiful state parks, and a pleasant parkway
called the Natchez Trace running from the bottom of Nashville all the way to
Tupelo, MS. The only thing missing for us is a beach, which is normally why a
lot of Tennesseans go to Alabama or Florida, typically, for that.

TL;DR: Nashville and Tennessee are indeed awesome! I highly recommend people
come and visit and check a few things out, cost of living here is extremely
cheap compared to Silicon Valley / San Fran, and a lot of other major cities
are far away, as horv mentioned above.

10/10, would live here indefinitely if able.

------
throwaway21816
Stay in California, you made your bed now lay in it.

------
client4
Come to Montana. We have SoFi, Oracle, Vubiquity, Submittable, many other tech
companies, and a great outdoor culture if you're into that.

~~~
re_todd
What part(s) of Montana?

~~~
ryanstout
Bozeman Montana is a up and coming tech hub with a pretty awesome tech scene.
Also, if your looking to raise money, we have a ton of wealthy people who are
looking to invest in the tech scene. Obviously not as much in the way of
mentorship, but you can get that remotely.

------
Hydraulix989
Repping Pittsburgh and Vegas! The Burgh has Uber ATC, Oculus Research, and
Google now, not to mention CMU.

------
Tempest1981
Anyone up north in Santa Rosa, Rohnert Park, or Petaluma? What's it like up
there? Any jobs?

~~~
sillypog
I bought a house on Russian River when I realized I'd never be able to afford
SF. I spent a lot of time in those towns while coming up to work on the house.
I found the culture shock too hard to deal with and ended up renting the house
out. Sebastopol is a gorgeous town with its own personality (not something I
could say for Santa Rosa). But it's still quite expensive to get a house there
and I don't know what the job situation is like.

------
webyacusa
Glad nobody recommended Indianapolis. Indy sucks.

------
oaf357
Come to the Palo Alto of the east coast: Raleigh

------
rch
Check out Kingston, NY. You'd be surprised.

------
aprdm
Don't come to London :)

Berlin is a very nice choice!

------
kleer001
moved out of east sf bay to vancouver bc. still astronomical prices on
everything.

------
grillvogel
youve all already ruined seattle

