
Let Children Get Bored Again - glassworm
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/02/opinion/sunday/children-bored.html
======
csmeder
There are two separate issues:

A. 1,000 ft view: drugs are bad. Both chemical drugs and electronic
entertainment that is engineered to be addictive. Light weight drugs in small
doses are less bad: 90s vs now.

B. 50,000 ft view: the real problem. When rats are put in normal laboratory
settings they choose drugs over food and water if given the choice. Most of
our research on addiction is based on this. In a study where the rats were
placed in a healthy environment they chose food and water over drugs.

We live and raise our children in the former. Humans evolved to be raised in
an environment much closer to what is happening over in Germany with Forests
kindergartens [https://youtu.be/31eBV6ZTNDQ](https://youtu.be/31eBV6ZTNDQ)

~~~
clubm8
Personally I think the issue is, and I struggled for a long time to articulate
this... escape.

I have always struggled with a cluster of issues... too much tv, too much
internet, for a period in college binge drinking, overeating... the big "aha!"
was that I was engaging in these behaviors to escape reality.

We live in a unique time where if you don't like the reality you're in, you
can step into another. Society has rightfully developed stigmas against other
harmful behaviors. But the issue is a level deeper.

For the first time in history, we can "escape" or "drop out" or whatever you
wish to call it without chemicals. It's a powerful urge... after all, if you
have a limited time on earth, and the world's information at your fingertips,
it becomes extremely tempting to just tune out... everything.

~~~
nitrogen
Books were an escape vehicle before TV, movies, and games.

~~~
lytedev
Sure, but doesn't it work pretty differently? With books, you're just given
words and your brain has to fill in the gaps and actually do some work. With
video games and movies, your brain is directly stimulated; shown what to see
and hear.

~~~
leetcrew
I know this is the common argument, but I'm not entirely convinced. when I was
a kid, the graphics were quite primitive by today's standards, but playing the
games at that age felt like stepping into a vivid other world. playing as an
adult, I just see a bunch of geometry with shitty lighting while I run around
clicking on HP sponges.

I wouldn't say that video games are quite as stimulating as reading a good
book, but I think we underestimate how much our imagination works to "fill in
the gaps" to make games feel real and rewarding.

~~~
dkersten
And how we used to think whatever the latest in graphics was, was oh so
realistic and amazing!

I played MUD’s for a few years when I was younger and in hindsight it was
amazing: while the writing wasn’t typically as good as a book, you still
filled in the world and characters with your imagination and it was both
interactive and social. I still have some vivid memories of it that are as
clear as if it had been a modern game or movie, despite that in reality I was
reading text.

~~~
bitexploder
Some MUDs back in the day had combat and skill systems as complex as any
modern MMOs. They were the precursor to MMORPG.

~~~
taborj
We're off topic here, but there are still plenty of MUDs around, and they're
still as good or better.

Check out
[https://www.mudconnect.com/index.html](https://www.mudconnect.com/index.html)

------
vharuck
This subject is prone to so many reasoning traps.

\- The "problem" is with the current generation of children, so their future
character is pure speculation.

\- The media consumed is seen as new. This means people believe (rightly or
wrongly) it affects children very differently. Paradoxically, these same
people claim to know how it affects them, despite it being new.

\- People are tempted to argue using childhood memories, despite being a child
with limited understanding, the mutation of memories over time, and the
limited sample size of other kids you knew. Those other kids were also only
kids who knew you, meaning they weren't asocial and likely went outside.

This isn't to say we can never know. Just that disciplined experiments are
necessary to avoid all these subjective pits.

~~~
ordu
_> Just that disciplined experiments are necessary to avoid all these
subjective pits._

Disciplined experiments would require decades to learn how new media influence
development of a child. Disciplined experiments require people subjects and a
big moral no-no in the most cases. It is easier (maybe it is the only way for
our society) to just watch what happens and to setup a small scale experiments
to distinguish causes from effects.

While we are designing experiments children grow and become adults. When we
finish with experiments the world would be the different place and the only
our scientific result would be an ability to explain what happened in the
past. (It would be a limited ability, because no one would be able to
replicate our experiments and to confirm our findings.)

So I agree that speculations about future character of a child of current
generation is a pure speculation, but it is the only way to apply brains to a
current educational tasks. Alternatively we can say that a pure speculation is
not good enough and do nothing, let things flow by the stream. I, personally,
believe that the former way is better than the latter, even if it is
unscientific.

------
sl1ck731
When my family went through hard times in High School our internet was cut.
Basically every interest I had was pulled out from under me (gaming). I ended
up going to the local library during this time after months of crushing
boredom and reading a lot of books like the CompTIA Linux, CEH, random
programming books.

I always wonder what I would be like if I didn't go through this phase at such
a crucial time. It refocused me right before college and let me explore things
that would otherwise have been boring.

Now that I'm doing well I can't find the same focus for things I want to learn
because of all the other luxuries I have.

I can't imagine how kids that don't struggle like I did will gain that sort of
clarity. Of course there are those who will just want to do those things, but
I would argue that is the minority.

~~~
usaphp
> I ended up going to the local library during this time after months of
> crushing boredom and reading a lot of books like the CompTIA Linux, CEH,
> random programming books

It's only happened because you were that type of person, I know a lot more
high school students who went robbing cars and drinking because of their
boredom, not going to libraries to read programming books.

~~~
JauntyHatAngle
If young people are robbing cars and underage drinking when they are bored, I
would think the problem there is more about peer-pressure, upbringing and lack
of purpose/belonging rather than boredom.

If someone is only stopped from making poor decisions due to escapism, there
is an underlying issue that needs to be fixed with something deeper than not
letting them get bored.

~~~
usaphp
You can say the same about kids who end up as “bad examples” of media/tv
influence

------
mistercow
This article is extremely thin on actual evidence, and that's a problem,
because I could take any aspect the world which has changed since my own
childhood, write a similar article, and have just as much of a point as this
one.

I could, for example, write about the easy availability of music, and the fact
that you don't have to go to a store to buy CDs. I could take every tiny facet
of CD purchasing, anticipation, and delayed gratification that I think was in
some way good, and lament that kids no longer have that experience. I could
completely fail to point out any possible _beneficial_ aspects to modern music
availability, and by the end of it, the uncareful reader might think that I
have a legitimate point.

It seems obvious that something simply being different about how children grow
up does not imply that it's worse, so there needs to be some way to
distinguish legitimate causes for worry from simple alarmism. If you can't
find a way to do that for your piece, I think it's fair to say that your
position should simply be ignored.

Now sometimes, the scientific community does need a nudge to investigate
whether something is a problem. But if you can find _no_ hints within the
current body of scientific knowledge that what you're talking about actually
matters, you probably haven't found one of those cases.

------
runeks
You can't fully understand what something is without experiencing its absence.
Boredom is the absence of interest, and it's important because it teaches you
about interest.

In the same way that you can't judge how loud an always-present humming sound
from an air conditioner is -- because it disappears into the background -- you
can't assess _how_ interested you are in something if interest is always
present.

You don't want to do something just because it's _somewhat_ interesting.
Watching YouTube is somewhat interesting, but you clearly don't want to do
that all the time. You want to do what's _most_ interesting. And if you're
unwilling to experience the absence of interest, you'll never know what that
is.

------
solipsism
My dad grew up without a TV. He hardly had any books. He and his brothers ran
around town finding adventures. This is exactly the kind of childhood the
author advocates for.

And yet, today, in his retirement, my dad sits in front of the TV or computer
24/7\. He doesn't produce anything, he just consumes.

It's just one anecdote. But I think articles like these always receive many
upvotes and clicks, only because they match many people's gut feeling. It
_seems right_ that letting kids get bored would spark creativity.

But _feeling right_ is not the same thing as being right. Give me some
argument for why I should believe these claims. Read the article again --
there's not an ounce of proof behind any of the many claims.

For every Lin Manuel Miranda there are a thousand my dads, who didn't turn
their boredom into some kind of admirable creative passion. So which one is
the outlier?

------
maroonblazer
This article primes my confirmation bias. I used to think it was up to me to
keep my son entertained or otherwise 'engaged'. One day it hit me that letting
him experience boredom is probably a net positive since I won't always be
around to keep things interesting and the boredom might force him to explore
pursuits he otherwise wouldn't have.

As he's grown older I've restricted screen time for the same reasons (although
I could probably do more in that department).

Having just read the other HN topic regarding the hikikomori, I wonder if
a/the root cause isn't their use of technology to treat boredom. Perhaps not a
blanket condemnation of technology - if I discover a new hobby online and can
parlay that into a job/career that's a net positive - but there's certainly
some aspects of tech that are going to keep someone isolated and socially
atrophied.

~~~
c22
When I was a kid I remember being bored all the time, but interestingly as an
adult I am never bored. In retrospect I think a lot of it has to do with the
opportunities available to me. Now if I have an idea of something I want to do
or a project I want to work on I can just start doing it. When I was a kid I
was limited since many of my ideas required some disposable income or a car to
accomplish. Given this perspective perhaps it is somewhat your responsibility
to keep your son "engaged".

~~~
Nav_Panel
As an adult, I see my "boredom" more clearly as a psychological imperative "Do
Something!" combined with an existential reply "Nothing Is Worth Doing!"

The result is inaction, the fix is either identifying something, anything
worthwhile (the state often points to some unresolved need), or acting anyway
despite the meaninglessness (only tenable for short periods, better to
rearrange one's environment to avoid such situations altogether).

------
konschubert
Boredom breeds creativity not just in kids, but adults too.

------
beefsack
I'm incredibly wary about opinion pieces about the current generation of kids
by previous generations. Nostalgia is an incredibly powerful influence.

~~~
mistercow
Especially ones that make fundamentally scientific claims, but can’t support
their central thesis even with indirect evidence, so they decorate their
article with noncentral mini-tangents just so they can link to some studies.

There’s a pretense of rigor here sitting on top of the same “kids are growing
up different” FUD we’ve seen a million times. The mere ability to make such an
observation seems to be pretty uncorrelated with there actually being a reason
for concern.

------
alkonaut
I’m only reading this because I refused to get bored for even 10 seconds in an
elevator. And I practiced boredom for decades before the attention economy. I
have almost given up on my children.

------
darkpuma
Makes sense. Many of my best memories as a child started off with me being
bored. My mother only let me have 30 minutes of screen time per day, computer
and television combined, so the rest of the time I was forced to run around
bored looking for things to do.

~~~
finaliteration
Not only that, but screen-based entertainment wasn’t available on-demand.
Remember having to wait until a certain time to watch a show you wanted to
watch and figuring out something else to do while waiting? Or having to wait
until someone was off the phone to use the internet? I feel like another big
problem related to boredom is the general lack of patience in our society
today. If I can’t have it -right now- then it’s not worthwhile. Which is
unfortunate, because a lot of things worth doing require both boredom and
patience.

------
theshrike79
The most important mission in a dad's life is make sure his kids are bored out
of their minds often enough and need to come up with something to do on their
own.

~~~
marktangotango
Our kids get limited screen time, like an hour a day on weekends and 20 min
during weekdays. A lot of the rest of the time it’s “play with your sibling”
although we do board games sometimes. I’ve really been impressed how my kids
use their screen time. My son builds projects inspired by what he sees and our
daughter sings and pretend plays. They come up with games on their own. It’s
really been awesome to see how they’ve integrated it.

~~~
dbancajas
How old are your kids? We've been struggling with ours wrt to screen time.

------
wink
> Life isn’t meant to be an endless parade of amusements. “That’s right,” a
> mother says to her daughter in Maria Semple’s 2012 novel, “Where’d You Go,
> Bernadette.” “You are bored. And I’m going to let you in on a little secret
> about life. You think it’s boring now? Well, it only gets more boring. The
> sooner you learn it’s on you to make life interesting, the better off you’ll
> be.”

Interesting quote, and sadly might be out of context.

Still I couldn't disagree more. Everyone told me school time was the best part
of my life, and oh the dreadful work after that. Bullshit. As soon as I was
old enough to choose my own life and do what I want to do everything kinda
improved and I'm exactly not really bored anymore (well, of course not 100%,
but it's not worth mentioning). If you have the means and authority to choose
your actions, boredom is much less of a problem than under constraints (can't
go outside, can't go to a different place, can't stay up late playing games,
don't have money to buy something you want to interact with...)

------
HNLurker2
God damn it, another thread about boredom (one thing is that Boredom isn't
boring):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10303091](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10303091)

I just guess its part of the human experience, very trivial. The problem is if
I am teen and I am content with life (Movies, Meditation, Gratitude) I won't
put a fight to build anything, or even do anything at all. I could live in my
parents basement for years.

Something I learnt lately is that even the Buddhist didn't liked it: dullness
is a hindrance. Try breathing meditation to alievate it, and it works. So what
would be the difference between breathing until you die (with no stress)
versus indulging in entertainment, projects, video games etc?

------
MichaelMoser123
This is a very valuable article. I have the following problem with it:

I think this age has its own tragedy: On the one end one is expected to
process information that comes in in at a frantic pace; on the other hand one
is required to do so with the depth and thoroughness that comes from a much
slower age, when the skills were acquired while processing two dimensional
texts/books.

These are two modes stand in contradiction to each other.

Now this contradiction hits hardest on kids and parents: you have to prepare
and train your kids for both of these modes so that they stay competitive
(that is able to fulfill the requirements and challenges they will later face
at work).

Lots of problems...

------
tarr11
The parade of concerned parents writing these kinds of articles have
conveniently forgotten how much TV and video games many of us consumed in
1980s and 1990s.

This stuff reads like satire:

“Rather than teach them to absorb material that is slower, duller and
decidedly two-dimensional, like a lot of worthwhile information is, schools
cave in to what they say children expect: fun. ”

The kids are going to be alright.

~~~
cortesoft
Yeah, it is also interesting how they categorize the activities... apparently
reading a book doesn’t count as “avoiding boredom”, but playing a video game
does... why? Both are using something to entertain yourself, and it seems
pretty arbitrary to distinguish between them. In fact, I am pretty sure there
has been times on our history where reading fiction was treated the same way
we treat watching YouTube videos today... as bad for your brain.

~~~
hombre_fatal
I think there's some truth to that, though.

As a former video game addict, I look back on my time spent gaming as largely
a waste. Most of it was a compulsion, like staying up until 4am re-queuing in
Dota. Or grinding some armor piece.

But I don't look back with regret on any of my time spent reading. I think
most people here know what I'm talking about. Why is that?

I can think of a few guesses. Books aren't in the same category of quick
dopamine releases as most (not all) games. There's an element of imagination
and mental world construction in the book with even the cheapest
entertainment. You're exposed to different interpretations of the world,
possibly integrating the thoughts of others against your own. It also helped
me write and spell.

I'd certainly categorically rank books higher than games if I had to. Though I
know if you told this to my 14-year-old self, I would've made you think I only
played MathBlaster and games from The Learning Company all day. "What, you
think learning is bad?!"

I'm reminded of when I was at my friend's house when he kicked his son off
Youtube to go outside. He thought it was the most unfair thing in the world,
happy to let you know how many good educational videos there were on Youtube
even though he'd just done a four hour binge of screaming Minecraft vids.

I chuckled and thought of myself at about that age. At one point I spited my
mother by bringing paper and pencils outside to draw instead of playing in the
street. That'll show her! Well, I now have a drawing hobby that I still
practice weekly in my 30s. :)

~~~
solipsism
_I don 't look back with regret on any of my time spent reading. I think most
people here know what I'm talking about. Why is that?_

Easy one. It's because this is how society teaches you to feel.

You grew up in a world where schools tell you read anything you can get your
hands on. They have book fairs, summer reading contests, entire libraries full
of both nonfiction and fiction. It's drilled into your from an early age how
valuable reading is.

If society indoctrinated you to feel that way about video games, that's how
you'd feel.

There was a time when they only books considered worthwhile were nonfiction
(and maybe the Bible). If a teacher caught you with a mystery or romance book,
you'd be spanked in front of the class. In those days you'd feel guilty for
spending an entire day reading Jane Eyre.

~~~
kurtisc
Haven't books dripping with philosophy also always been considered
appropriate?

But I agree. Just look at an airport book shop's best sellers: is anyone
really getting anything enlightening out of a trite mystery book that they
don't get from TV? We (or at least I) feel some guilt for not having read
classics and then attribute the same feeling to any sort of reading. Provided
it's on a dead tree.

I've spent ages reading A Song of Ice and Fire, ultimately that is just the
same as time wasted on the internet or TV if what I'm valuing is time spent on
self improvement. Even reading a manpage is more valuable.

------
anonu
I disagree with the premise of the article and its conclusions to let kids get
bored. Boredom is plain evil. It is not something that should be sought out.
Rather, it is a symptom of unpreparedness or parents not stoking inherent
creativity in their kids.

As a kid, I rarely left home without a book. That habit still exists today. If
I was "bored" or had some idle time, I had something to keep me entertained.
On long car rides I'd engage with my siblings in numerous games - many of
which we made up

~~~
abootstrapper
Don’t you think the kid should be learning to cure boredom themselves? If you
always tie your kids shoes, how will they learn to tie their own shoes?
Likewise, if you always provide entertainment, how will they learn to
entertain themselves?

~~~
Nasrudith
That is why you need to teach them how to do something. If kids are expected
to know something teach them it.

~~~
abootstrapper
Of course. Part of teaching is allowing them to struggle with the problem.
Show them how, do it together, let them do it and help, let them do it with
encouragement, finally let them do it alone. In the last two steps you must
allow them to struggle and make their own mistakes.

By the time a kid knows the meaning of the word boredom, they know plenty of
methods to cure it. They just need to be allowed to struggle with the problem
and solve it themselves.

------
tmaly
I have given my 5 year old enough guidance that she keeps busy when ever she
is home.

Yes we still do activities, but she is never bored and she never asks for much
screen time. We have tons of books, things to draw, puppets to make
performances with.

I think exposing kids to lots of different activities and letting them have
the free time, helps them to fill the the time.

------
andrei821
Nowadays children find themselves in a software-defined life. Boredom is a
good option of gettin outside of this environment.

------
stevehawk
Relevant Seth MacFarlane joke -
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IXOsCi_F7w8](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IXOsCi_F7w8)

The kids are fine. The parents have too much free time.

------
aliswe
This goes for adults too.

