
H-1B: Nearly three-quarters of Valley techies are foreign - sjworker
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/h-1b-foreign-citizens-make-up-nearly-three-quarters-of-silicon-valley-tech-workforce-report-says/?
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cbm-vic-20
As long as these "techies" are making 10-15% more than their green-carded and
citizen peers with equivalent experience and skill, that seems like a win-win.

If they're not making more than green-carded and citizen peers, that's a flaw
in the system that should be corrected. The H1-B program is intended to bring
in high-skill foreign workers, and the only way to not drive down wages of
green-card or citizen workers would be to ensure they cost more to employ. If
everyone is playing by the rules, it's a win-win for everyone: companies get
positions filled, the foreign worker gets a good wage, and the green-card and
citizen worker salaries also rise.

In practice, though, H1-B becomes indentured servitude, since they cannot
freely move between companies.

~~~
jogjayr
> In practice, though, H1-B becomes indentured servitude, since they cannot
> freely move between companies.

This hasn't been true for at least 10 years (maybe more). It is entirely
possible to change jobs on an H-1B. The new company needs to file a new
application (called a transfer) for you and premium process it, which adds 2-3
weeks to the process of a job change. Cumbersome? Yes. Indentured servitude?
Only if your skills are useful to your company alone.

As of January 2017, H-1B workers are also officially allowed one 60-day period
of unemployment, so it's also not true we live in terror of losing our jobs
lest we have to pack up and ship out the very next day.

I'm not denying the system could be better still e.g. don't require a new
application every time you change your job, unless it's a completely different
type of job or less salary, eliminate per-country quotas for green cards
because of which hundreds of thousands of Indians and Chinese stick around on
H-1Bs for years, allow 60-day periods of unemployment after any job longer
than 6 months, or a lifetime 180-day limit. But it is frustrating to hear the
amount of misinformation that flies around - the comments section of that
article is a cesspool of misunderstanding and fear-mongering.

~~~
pandaman
>It is entirely possible to change jobs on an H-1B.

It is and it's quite easy when your H-1B has not been extended past 6 years.
Then it becomes interesting and this is what people colloquially refer as
"indentured servitude".

~~~
jogjayr
Can you elaborate? It's always been my understanding that the visa can be
extended past 6 years in 1-3 year increments if you have an approved I-140.
Without losing your "place" in the green card line.

~~~
pandaman
It can be extended if you have an approved I-140 but also if you have a
pending I-140. What's going to happen if you switch the job on a pending
I-140? And an I-140 could be pending for years in case you are not aware. Even
approved I-140 (after 180 days) is not clear cut because the AC21, which
allows this, states something to the effect that it's fine if you change to a
similar job. How similar? It's up to the USCIS to decide.

~~~
jogjayr
> What's going to happen if you switch the job on a pending I-140? And an
> I-140 could be pending for years in case you are not aware.

The I-140 can be premium processed. How could it be pending for years? Your
new employer restarts the PERM process with the priority date from your old
application. For Indians and Chinese with multi-decade GC waits it makes no
difference if you have to restart because your priority date doesn't change so
it's not like you'd get a GC faster by staying with your current employer. For
everyone else, you're stuck with your current employer for maybe a year or two
until you get a GC.

> Even approved I-140 (after 180 days) is not clear cut because the AC21,
> which allows this, states something to the effect that it's fine if you
> change to a similar job. How similar? It's up to the USCIS to decide.

All true and valid points. Hence I said the system could be better.
Eliminating per-country GC caps seems like the most expedient solution.

~~~
pandaman
>The I-140 can be premium processed. How could it be pending for years?

"Premium processing" just means that your premium fee is refunded if the
application is not approved in the short time. It can totally go for any
period of time imaginable even without lawyers filing it in such a way as to
ensure a couple of RFEs.

>Your new employer restarts the PERM process with the priority date from your
old application.

Meanwhile you are on a 1 year H1B extension, which cannot be extended until
you have a new pending I140. Which, in turn (if memory serves) requires 1 year
and 1 day left in status to file (though there are probably ways around it
too).

> Hence I said the system could be better.

I am not arguing that system could not be better, I am arguing against
"mythbusting" of ease of switching jobs on H1B. It's easy on a fresh H1B but
it's very complicated later and this is the reason people don't often do that
on >6 years H1B (practically with 5+ years you are already running into the
issues with I140).

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loveydovey
I don’t know if it’s necessarily dependence or not. I think SV has trouble
enticing US citizens from the rest of the country to move here because they
won’t pay enough to provide a similar quality of life. In the 20years I’ve
been here I’ve had to transfer tech from places like MD, NJ and Texas. In all
cases we managed to retain very few of the engineers from those locations. If
I had to guess we’d get 1 out of every 30 engineers to move to the valley. The
primary reason we could convince so few was the high cost of housing. In those
days the difference wasn’t anywhere near what it is now. recently at the big
web monopoly I work at, we hired a director level from Colorado. After a year,
he chose not to move due to high costs of housing despite >$300k salary and
probably a very valuable RSU package. He left.

I think wages in the Valley would be significantly higher if companies had to
entice US citizens to move here. I think the wages would be higher because
they’d have to provide quality of life/lifestyle at similar levels to
elsewhere. The relief valve of foreign workers, the vast majority simply want
a green card allows people to accept a lower standard of living relative to
the rest of the US.

That and the fact that once established foreign workers tend to hire same.
Example: my Chinese colleagues only seem to be able to refer other a Chinese
when we are hiring. Don’t mean to pick on them, other groups do it too. But
also in 20 years I’ve never once seen a Chinese colleague refer a non-Chinese
National (or even Chinese-American) for an open req.

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jogjayr
> But also in 20 years I’ve never once seen a Chinese colleague refer a non-
> Chinese National (or even Chinese-American) for an open req.

What you're describing is a feature/bug of referral-based hiring and has
nothing to do with specific groups or nationalities. People tend to refer
their friends, and other people they've worked with. I'm not denying it would
be good for everyone to leave their social bubbles and make some new friends
though :-)

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loveydovey
Sorry but I disagree. I’ve worked with all types and have no issue pushing
folks I think are talented regardless of background. I’ve hired all kinds of
people. If you don’t think what I’m referring to is an issue then you either
haven’t been around very long or you are ignoring the obvious.

~~~
jogjayr
I'm not disagreeing there's an issue, I'm just not sure that it's deliberate.
People refer who they know socially or have worked with in the past - your
friends will tell you they're looking for a new job, but your current co-
workers mostly won't. And most people tend to stay within their own cultural
bubbles when it comes to making friends, both because it's easy, and because
making friends with anyone as an adult is hard. I too, am very happy to refer
anyone talented regardless of background, and I think most people are.

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ikeyany
The title tricks the reader into assuming "foreign" means "H-1B".

Should it be resubmitted with a less misleading title?

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gyc
The headline is further misleading by saying "foreign citizens" when the study
was talking about workers who were "foreign born." A U.S. citizen who was born
abroad is not foreign.

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tristanj
> _A U.S. citizen who was born abroad is not foreign_

This is a relatively tiny demographic. About 50,000 US babies per year are
born abroad. Compared to over 4 million native births per year. So about
~1.2%.

~~~
jogjayr
They may have meant naturalized US citizens.

~~~
gyc
Yep. People like Sergey Brin, Max Levchin, et al. would count as "foreign"
under the metric of the study in the article.

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petilon
The only way the US can maintain its high standard of living is through
immigration of the best from other countries. The Chinese government is
investing heavily in artificial intelligence. (See
[https://www.technologyreview.com/s/609038/chinas-ai-
awakenin...](https://www.technologyreview.com/s/609038/chinas-ai-awakening/) )
Whichever country wins the AI race will become the new superpower. If the top
Chinese engineers can be persuaded to immigrate to the US then we can win this
race. If not we will lose economically and militarily to China.

When companies like Disney use H-1B to replace American workers with cheaper
immigrant workers that's a problem. This is a misuse of H-1B and it needs to
stop. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater!

~~~
solidsnack9000
This implies that other nations must necessarily have a lower standard of
living, while the US is importing their people.

Few countries import graduate researchers on the scale that the US does -- and
China, notably, does not, even though it seems like a credible threat in your
eyes.

Something is wrong with the US if it can't foster domestic talent to an
appropriate degree so as to remain competitive. In the long run, the US will
not have a standard of living so much higher than that of other nations. A lot
of that lead is a direct consequence of the outcome of the second world war,
and a lot of the rest is due to inheriting British institutions -- the legal
system, and broad respect for rule of law -- at a time when few of the
governments around today were even formed.

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g9yuayon
I wonder where American-born geeks are? Is there any stats on how many techies
that American education system produces year by year?

~~~
bdcravens
I believe that companies (like SV) that value density and speed of hiring
would emphasize H1-B hires. (Not cost - if a company is utilizing H1-B's to
save money, they are fraudulently abusing the system)

There are many companies that do not have those same values, and the work
required for H1-B hires is not worth it.

