
Tim O'Reilly: Really, Google is evil now? Let's Get Real. How About Apple? - DanielRibeiro
https://plus.google.com/107033731246200681024/posts/fWJtC2mb3Eq
======
olivercameron
Do we really have to go down that same path that we went down with Microsoft
vs. Apple? Each company should be held responsible for their own, singular
actions. If Google is doing wrong, then Google is at fault, let's not pass the
blame to Apple, or vice-versa.

Honestly, it's in the media's best interest for fanboys on each side to be at
war with each other, not anyone else's. If you like an Android phone, use
Android, if you prefer an iPhone, use an iPhone. It doesn't need to be a point
of contention.

Both companies have made mistakes, but we needn't go "Oh, you think Google is
evil? Well, let me tell you about Apple". The truth is, it's hard to not be
"evil" and have the insane amount of revenue's that these companies both
share. Of course, this all depends on how you interpret "evil".

Steve Jobs famously said: "We have to let go of this notion that for Apple to
win, Microsoft has to lose. We have to embrace a notion that for Apple to win,
Apple has to do a really good job".

~~~
aclimatt
That's missing the point of the article, which his update was added to
clarify.

This article is NOT saying "why is everybody angry at Google for being evil?
We can't forget about all these other evil companies!" That's the common
problem a lot of articles like this one run into, but not this one
specifically.

Tim's point is that "Google is /not/ evil. Google is doing something that may
seem evil, but is in fact not. Google could do something in the future that
may end up as evil, but that has yet to happen. To compare, let me show you an
example of actual evil. [Enter Apple.]"

Apple is used to demonstrate what, in his opinion, actual evil looks like and
how that differs from what Google is doing, therefore making Google's actions
not evil. The Apple example (which could be Ford or Monsanto, doesn't matter)
does not serve to to excuse Google.

~~~
Steko
"Tim's point is that "Google is /not/ evil."

Tim has spectacularly missed the forest for the trees. Google isn't just evil
today because they updated their privacy policy. If turning a blind or half
blind eye to suppliers in Asia is evil then they, like every other tech
company, are evil and have been for a long time.

Where do the 700,000 Android phones that get activated every day get made? Is
Google blameless because they dont make it themselves? Would Apple be
blameless if they just designed the phones and contracted someone else to
build it? Well they did so I guess not...

Look, it's clear that Apple, as the most visible brand, is going to get the
lion's share of attention here the same way Nike was the target of sweatshop
complaints in the 80's.

That said, as opposed to just shaming the Big Bad Apple, I'd really love to
see a detailed comparison between the standards and practices of Apple and
other first world companies contracting with suppliers in Asia (and
elsewhere).

~~~
cooldeal
>Where do the 700,000 Android phones that get activated every day get made? Is
Google blameless because they dont make it themselves?

But..but..but...as we are tirelessly reminded by some folks here, Apple takes
most of the profits of the mobile handset industry, so they're in the best
position to lessen their huge margin by a few percentage points so as to not
endanger the lives of the people that make the phones. If they make the most
money from making people work in inhumane conditions, they deserve the most
blame, esp. since they have the most leverage to pay more.

~~~
lloeki
According to Tim Cook's company email on the matter, they do.

The fact is, you can't just pour money over the place and see what comes out
of it. Especially in a country like China, and with multiple factories sizing
in the range of 100'000s of workers. Hundred fscking thousands. This is the
same order of magnitude as the _whole of General Motors_ , for a _single
factory_. The whole thing is architected to be able to reconfigure itself to
produce whatever the demand needs almost overnight. This is incredible. There
is no single country out there which has such a powerful tool. It's of
thermonuclear scale, when the US tries to fight with a bunch of Winchesters
(and even smaller countries like France are battling with swords and bows in a
stone castle). Even if you're Apple you can't come in cash in hand and say
'Okay folks, this is not how we want things to work here' and re-architect the
whole thing in a day. As you said they're in the best position to use leverage
and I think they're doing it but moving such a huge block needs a freaking
huge lever, and time.

------
oldstrangers
I'm glad some people have perspective on this issue. I remember MG Siegler's
ridiculous article about why he hated Android[1] and just how furiously angry
he was that they didn't deliver on some overly ambitious promise to take out
the phone carriers.

Yet when he (reluctantly) took the time to write about the recent Foxconn
issues[2], he tried to deflect blame from Apple because they're simply an easy
target considering they're "now arguably the most successful company on the
planet." No furious anger, no outrage, just a simple "uh well shit happens,
its unfortunate."

What kind of hypocrisy must exist inside someone's head to be capable of
writing both of those articles? What's worse is that nearly every article MG's
written this past week or so has been about just how amazingly-super-awesome
it is that Apple made so much money. Apparently it's all great to be the most
"successful company on the planet", but heaven forbid anyone dare look at how
those profits are earned in a critical light.

But but but Mom, Samsung is doing it too!! No one is going to change their
manufacturing practices as long as a company like Apple is reaping in some of
the largest profits in recorded history using Foxconn style labor as a
foundation.

[1]: <http://parislemon.com/post/15604811641/why-i-hate-android>

[2]: [http://parislemon.com/post/16561630035/this-is-why-we-
cant-h...](http://parislemon.com/post/16561630035/this-is-why-we-cant-have-
nice-things)

~~~
Yhippa
Here's a hypothetical situation. What if MGS has a large stake relative to his
own wealth in Apple stock. Would it be a bad thing for him to continue to
write articles assailing Google and pumping Apple? I don't know if he has any
inside knowledge or not but could what he writes which influences many readers
who could be potential investors be considered illegal?

I really have no idea but if anybody does I'd like to hear it. I get really
suspicious when I hear guys like Gruber and Siegler have such strong one-sided
opinions about things like this when they reach such a wide audience.

~~~
oldstrangers
MG has said a few times that he does not own stock in Apple.

------
Lazare
Paul Krugman talked about the "Apple is evil" side of the argument many years
ago.

<http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html>
<http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/ricardo.htm>

Key quote: "At best, forcing developing countries to adhere to our labor
standards would create a privileged labor aristocracy, leaving the poor
majority no better off. And it might not even do that. [...] A policy of good
jobs in principle, but no jobs in practice, might assuage our consciences, but
it is no favor to its alleged beneficiaries."

Is he wrong? (Please don't downvote me just because you disagree with
Krugman.)

~~~
rockarage
China is far from a developing country. So this isn't about taking advantage
of a developing nation. It's very difficult for many foreign company to start
a business in China. These are companies that China has approved that are
mistreating the Chinese people. The bulk of the blame falls on China for
allowing their people to be used like robots. You can't openly treat American
workers like this because American government won't legally allow it. The
Chinese government has the all the power to dictate what a business can do in
China. The government use it's power on many occasion silent dissent, why not
use that power to help it's own people ?

~~~
Volpe
China uses a lot of it's power to try and stop things just like this. What
evidence do you have that they haven't tried?

Are you seriously going to try and argue the US doesn't exploit "American"
workers? Or are you defining "American worker" as someone with american
citizenship rather than a worker in america.

I still find it amazing the lack of 'personal accountablity' in your response.
Companies aren't bad for exploiting people, countries are bad for letting
them... seriously?

~~~
rockarage
Not true, I said I would used an alternative to Apple if all tech companies
did not produce computers in similar or worse factories. The bulk of the
blame, not all of the blame, has to fall on Chinese government. The government
is in the business of protecting it's people from foreign dangers. These
multinational companies are allowing things to happen to foreigners (the
chinese people) that would be illegal in their home nation. The Chinese
government has the bulk of the blame because Chinese government approved these
companies, the Chinese Government approves of every single foreign entity,
it's not hands off. Immediately the abuses would stop if the Chinese
government ordered it to. The Government can not protect it's own people from
foreign harm, (foxxcon is not a Chinese company) then that Government should
be blamed. No China is not using its power to stop this because if it did it
won't happen on such a large scale. Moreover I never said American workers are
not exploited, it happens, but what is happening in China is far worse.

------
mikeash
Google is a huge customer of cheap electronics, and somewhat less directly
behind the production of a whole lot more due to Android. Shouldn't some of
the blame for awful working conditions apply to them as well? Unless their
server farms are made only from components built in factories which treat
their workers universally well (do such things even exist for everything you'd
need?) they're just driving the demand that causes this stuff to happen.

I think that concentrating on Google, Apple, or any of these other big Western
companies is getting off on the wrong foot. It makes us feel all self-
righteous to do it, but doesn't actually get to the root of the problem.
Ultimately, those countries which host cheap labor and allow its exploitation
are responsible for offering it. Perhaps not the true in small, powerless
countries which can get pushed around by large corporations, but China
certainly doesn't fall into that category.

If we want things to change, I think we either need to turn our eye to the
Chinese government for not enacting stricter controls, or simply declare that
these problems are an inevitable result of poverty and industrialization, and
that the only ways out are to either return everybody to agrarian lifestyles
(which is in many ways worse than working in an evil factory) or allowing
these poor conditions to produce economic growth.

------
melling
Apple is a client of FoxConn like all of these companies:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#Major_customers>

FoxConn has almost 1 million employees, and they aren't all working on Apple
products. If we're going to call out companies, shouldn't we be calling out
them all?

~~~
rockarage
I'm open to an alternative to Apple products, but I'm hard pressed to find a
company that make computers that are not made in similar or worse factories.
And why does China get a free pass in this ? Isn't communism suppose to
prevent this sort of thing ?

~~~
jiggy2011
I think a properly elected representative democratically elected government
would help prevent this sort of thing regardless of economic ideology.

I've never been to china but the impression I have gotten is that it is
basically a class system where those on the bottom have no power whatsoever.

This means that the Chinese government have no incentive to improve working
conditions as they don't have any votes to win, workers can simply be used to
"churn" which seems to be working well for boosting their economy right now.

~~~
rsynnott
> I think a properly elected representative democratically elected government
> would help prevent this sort of thing regardless of economic ideology.

This may be rather naive. Similar conditions in Western factories didn't
really go away until after World War 2; in the case of exposure to known-
dangerous substances, not til the 60s or 70s. Some of the countries involved
were democratic in the early 20th century; certainly the UK and arguably the
US (I say 'arguably' because the US excluded a substantial part of its
population from the franchise at the time). Certainly, government did
something; the effective banning of factory towns (through banning scrip and
mandatory rental), in particular, was very important. It was mostly down to
the labour unions, though.

> This means that the Chinese government have no incentive to improve working
> conditions as they don't have any votes to win

When has improving working conditions _ever_ been a vote winner for a major
party, anywhere? Historically, it has almost always been done due to union
pressure.

------
ethank
I can't wait until I can buy an American made Android phone. Oh wait.

These arguments based on dichotomous binary are pointless. Nothing is as
simple as "good" an "evil".

Nor is Apple to blame on their own for the China conditions. No more than
Google is by benefiting from it.

It makes good headlines. That's it.

~~~
martythemaniak
The box on the Galaxy S2 I got a few days ago says "Phone Made in Korea".
Without knowing anything about Samsung's factories there, I feel very safe
saying they're probably far better for workers than Foxconn.

~~~
Anechoic
<http://stopsamsung.wordpress.com/>

------
amirmc
_"Of course, Apple never promised to do no evil, so they get a free pass"_

I think that sums it up quite nicely. There are (potentially) broken
expectations with Google, which isn't really the case with Apple.

~~~
harryf
Exactly. With recent privacy changes we're reminded of what we've known all
along but have been ignoring; that we have next-to-nothing protecting us.

We love all those free services and we're sort of OK with ever more targeted
ads but we want to keep our illusion that Google are the good guys.

Unfortunately its an inevitable consequence of Google facing a competitor -
Facebook - who is willing to step over limits in sacrificing our privacy, in
the name of creating a more competitive ad network. Google has to follow suit
or risk losing their business.

The question is where is the bottom of that race? Profiling people with
tendency to get hooked on games and pushing them Zynga products seems pretty
much like evil to me and I think we're already there.

------
sc00ter
"You can either manufacture in comfortable, worker-friendly factories, or you
can reinvent the product every year, and make it better and faster and
cheaper, which requires factories that seem harsh by American standards,” said
a current Apple executive.

"And right now, customers care more about a new iPhone than working conditions
in China."

[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-
apples-i...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-
and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html)

------
sunchild
Morality clashes with business priorities. Every single company under the sun
deals with this fundamental conflict.

The myopic lens of online discourse is currently focused on Apple, presumably
because it got the This American Life treatment, and because it is the most
successful company of our time – but there isn't a single business out there
that doesn't have _something_ to answer for.

~~~
karl_nerd
While you're definitely right that the other manufacturers are playing the
same game, i think it makes perfect sense to focus on The Most Successful
Company of Our Time, just like the adbusters/anti-sweatshop movement did with
Nike in the nineties.

~~~
Anechoic
_i think it makes perfect sense to focus on The Most Successful Company of Our
Time_

Sure, and Apple is (and has been) doing something about this. Hopefully they
will do more, but as long as their competitors continue to make use of the
price advantage of Chinese labor, there is only so much they can do.

Unless of course they decide to manufacture in the US, in which case their
prices will increase and we can go back to complaining about how much more
expensive Apple stuff is compared to Dell, HP, etc.

------
itmag
I don't know if I would call Google evil per se. Paternalistic and cavalier
about invading people's personal space? Yes. Evil? Hmmm, I think that cheapens
the word somehow.

------
gumbo
Disgusting, have you listen to this
<http://www.thisamericanlife.org/play_full.php?play=454>

I swear, nearly had tears in my eyes. I'm not proud anymore to be part of this
machine (we build iphone/mac apps).

We are fighting SOPA, anyone who care enough to fight this fight.

Any idea of what we can do?

~~~
Volpe
It has more dimensions than is presented by Mike Daisey. I really is heart
breaking, similar to the stores of child labour in Nike factories.

But on the flip side, you pull the industry out, and those 'poor workers'
become just 'poor people with no income'. So the industry needs to be moved to
more ethical standards. Apple do "seem" to be trying, with their releases of
working conditions. But it's hard to tell how much of that is truth vs
propaganda.

I guess raising awareness, will slowly put pressure on companies like
Apple/HTC/etc to change these things.

Someone needs to think of a system that couples a profit motive to a 'people
motive'...

~~~
gumbo
Sure, pulling the industry is not the rigth way to go anyway.

I think that the population of china don't help... more than a billion.

I think that the world population is really the big issue of this century.

------
wizzard
His argument might have had some merit if he'd talked about the posh working
conditions at Nexus factories. For all we know those are made at Foxconn as
well.

And don't just blow off people's concerns about data mishandling. "We haven't
done anything bad yet, so people shouldn't be worried." Go ahead and whistle
past the graveyard, Tim.

~~~
rsynnott
The Nexus One was. The Nexus S and Galaxy Nexus are assembled in Korea, but
parts are likely made by Foxconn, which is a Samsung contractor.

------
Jayasimhan
Apple's manufacturing should not be compared to Google, because they dont do
any manufacturing. Lets wait and see what they do with their Motorola devices
then comment on it. Until then, the best comparison to Apple's hardware
manufacturing is Samsung who sell the most mobile devices. And where do they
manufacture their phones? in Asia. And who do they partner with? Foxconn.

The question that we really need to ask about Apple is : Is Apple worse than
Samsung in treating its laborers? I dont know. But my best guess is that its
the opposite.

Google on the other hand is being given a hardtime lately because of the title
Don't be evil that they enjoyed for a long time. That is not helping them to
compete with Apple or Facebook. Now Page is taking a hard look at the company
and transforming it to really compete with the frontrunners. To do that
effectively they cannot send flowers to the war. And now when they pick up
their weapons, they are being criticized for it.

As much as I love Tim, I don't think he thinks critically of Google as much as
he does about Apple. He might have liked all they did in the past, but the new
Google is not going to play the savior of the world. They are going to bring
in their guns to the war, there is going to be blood spilled all over the
field, and if they have to win, Google will be responsible for the blood as
much as Facebook or Apple.

p.s: Tim is one of my few idols.

~~~
rsynnott
> Apple's manufacturing should not be compared to Google, because they dont do
> any manufacturing

Strictly speaking, neither does Apple (or they do, but very little). Google
has just contracted it out one step further.

> Is Apple worse than Samsung in treating its laborers? I dont know.

It's messier with Samsung, because there are three sets of workers; those in
Korean Samsung factories, those in Chinese Samsung factories, and those in
Foxconn (which contracts for Samsung). In the last case, they're the _same_
workers.

------
shinratdr
Right, because Android devices are manufactured in USA standards factories
where people make $10/hour. What a load of horseshit, especially since Google
OWNS Motorola now (something people seem to constantly forget, including
Google employees). He has no excuse, this is just a completely ridiculous and
unfair comparison.

I might as well just say that Google is evil because they pay very little tax,
and Apple is awesome because they give Americans good development jobs. Both
facts are true about both company, but why let a little thing like reality
stop you from ignoring that to serve your point?

The consumer electronics manufacturing and assembly business is ugly. No one
company is better or worse unless they actually demonstrate that. Apple at the
very least offers their reports. Where are the reports from all the assemblers
that also use Foxconn, including ones involved in some high profile suicide
related cases like Microsoft?

Oh right, Apple is the big boys so let's throw rocks at them. I get why the
guy in the TAL segment focused on Apple. We can all agree they are an
attention grabber and delving into "Well, Microsoft does it too" is totally
missing the point in that instance.

However, if Googlers are going to start casting stones like they are sinless
because they just deal in data and collecting data is A-OK, I'm afraid I'm
going to have to point out what a load of crap that is.

~~~
wollw
It's somewhat of a moot point but since you capitalized "owns" in your post I
thought I should point out that the merger still hasn't happened[1][2].

[1][http://androidandme.com/2012/01/news/motorola-provides-an-
up...](http://androidandme.com/2012/01/news/motorola-provides-an-update-on-
proposed-merger-with-google/)

[2][http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/248815/acquisi...](http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/248815/acquisition_investigations_drag_on_losses_mount_at_motorola.html)

------
ecaron
I recently had to decide where my tech needs end and my beliefs begin - I
bought a new laptop. Although Apple has amazing hardware, I had to decide if I
was willing to support their practices or possibly use a machine that offered
less CPUs/dollar.

In the end, I went Tim's route and went with a company that treats its workers
better - but it was a very hard decision and I was struck by the similarities
between my purchase and the localvoire trend.

~~~
Tomek_
What company/companies are threating their workers better and how do you know
that? I seriously want to know, not just asking to undermine your point.

~~~
juliano_q
Me too, I am considering to leave the macbooks (sadly) to support my
principles but it is not an easy task to find a company that threat their
workers better.

------
fauigerzigerk
Data collection is not evil and Google's intentions may not be evil today. But
storing too much personal information in one place is evil waiting to happen.
Data could be stolen, subpoenaed or lost for instance. Or Google could turn
evil (I'm starting to hate this word) down the road. I'd rather pay in a
different currency.

About the factories of Apple's suppliers: I think the way towards better
health and safety conditions for workers in developing countries is via local
laws and rights. You can't rely on some corporation to police this.

The problem is if a government is known to be a bunch of thugs with guns whose
children are the super rich owners of the country, can you rely on that
government to play its part? What if that's not the case? Do you leave the
country and maybe cause more poverty? I'm not sure.

------
gurkendoktor
> Collecting data isn't evil. It's the currency of the future, a currency that
> we provide in order to buy useful services...

For all I know, data is mostly used to sell other services for cash, except a
little more effectively.

And blaming Apple for working condititions during manufacturing is missing the
forest for the trees. The whole model of short-lived consumer electronics is
absolutely terrible, starting with where materials come from, ending one some
landfill where children burn valuable metals out of the remains. I think we
could change much more if we would absolutely _oppose_ the notion that it is
normal to throw away cellphones after two, and computers after three years.

------
VikingCoder
"Google’s mission is to organize the world‘s information and make it
universally accessible and useful."

Oh my god, they're COLLECTING the information that I give to them, in order to
organize it and make it universally accessible and useful?!

And they're giving me options to disable collecting my information, if I don't
want them to?!

And if I do choose to let Google collect my information, they're giving me
tools to audit the information they have on me?!

OUTRAGE!

Google should figure out a way to organize the world‘s information and make it
universally accessible and useful, without first COLLECTING that
information!!!

How long have they had this mission statement, anyway? Is it like a week old,
or something?

------
jsz0
Google develops Android which runs on many devices made in similar or worse
conditions. They could change the license under which Android is distributed
under to include a clause that it cannot be used on devices that aren't made
under certain minimum labour standards. They don't. Are they evil too then?
It's really a lot more complex than good vs. evil. There are many fine
religious books that tackle that subject. This is an economic issue not a
religious issue.

~~~
juliano_q
You are really suggesting that a company create an open-source OS that is
supposed to run only on devices produced under certain labour standards? OK,
so if you put some software on Github and a company use it on any computer
manufactured in China you are evil? This is the same principle that the
iranian government is using on the Saeed Malekpour case and it is absurd.

[http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57362506-93/iranian-
court-u...](http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57362506-93/iranian-court-
upholds-web-programmers-death-sentence/)

~~~
jsz0
Not really just taking the argument to its logical moronic extreme. Google
could simply change a few lines of text in a license agreement and (somehow)
make life better for people in China. It's no different than the people who
say Apple should (effectively) abandon the Chinese labour market and somehow
the Chinese people would be better off.

------
invisible
I don't disagree with him about Google but come on... Tim O'Reilly complains
about journalists and then becomes one by pointing fingers and not following
up on the entire story.

"Foxconn clients include American, European and Japanese companies. Notable
products which the company manufactures include the Amazon Kindle, iPad,[5]
iPhone,[6] PlayStation 3, Wii and Xbox 360." -
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn>

------
cromwellian
I may get in trouble for saying this, but here goes.

No good deed goes unpunished I say <sigh>. Google, a company which has been
more transparent than most other companies I care to remember (and I've worked
for a lot of shitty big companies). A company which gives away more open
source than most other companies. A company which hires people based on
"Googley" culture, which includes, a culture of employees who actually desire
to be open and to act against abusing consumers and often confront management
if they try to do so. A company which has stood up for the internet and
protested SOPA. (A company I'm proud to work for.)

After all that, people still keep putting up batshit crazy conspiracy theories
about what Google plans to do ("dominate the world" and other crazy shit in
comments). Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, Google management,
although in the business of generating a return for shareholders, is not in
the business of _maximizing_ shareholder returns at the cost of everything
else, including abusing their customers, users, and employees? If Google's
sole interest was to bend over for profits and shareholders (to go evil
because that's what Wall Street demands), they could have cut costs a long
time ago to boost EPS, or sold your data to direct marketers.

Or maybe, that tens of thousands of employees, trained into a progressive
culture of openness and transparency, won't just sit idly by while some kind
of uber conspiracy theory using your data takes place? Even if Larry and
Sergey were false prophets, preaching sermons every week at TGIF about
Googley-ness, but secretly practicing evil, they still have created an
expectation in their employees of being well behaved, and that doesn't fade
fast.

Google's been running lots of free services that cost a hell of a lot of money
to develop, maintain, and host, from search, to email, to maps, street video,
youtube, etc. Not to mention hundreds of open source projects, including big
ones like Android and Chrome which are staffed by very large teams. None of
this costs anything for the end user, except the ability to model your
preferences and target advertising. For Developers, besides open source,
Google runs lots of developer conventions, and hands out free hardware costing
millions like candy. When you go to Apple developer events, how much does it
cost, and how much free stuff do you get?

You may think that is a bad bargain, so then, don't use free web services. But
there is nothing inherently evil about modeling users via their behavior. A
perfect search engine would know enough about you from your behavior, to
predict what your question really meant out of a set of possible ambiguous
ones, and that requires a historical relationship with the person asking the
question.

Google's privacy policy changes really is about simplifying the legalese as
well as having single-sign on for its services, and combining data to allow
all of them to better serve the user. We don't want to be like Yahoo, with 500
different properties, none of them integrated very well. We want our stuff to
work together more seamlessly. After all, if you are trying to organize the
world's information, that means aggregation.

You may cynically think this is bullshit, but us poor naive, deluded,
employees actually believe that is what we're working on. So somewhere along
the line, we will have to learn the evil truth that we're actually been
building a weapon for world domination.

I guess it would be like working on nuclear energy and being told enriching
uranium was only for peaceful purposes, and not for bombs. I suppose it's
possible.

But do try to remember, this company has a reasonably flat management
structure, that it has tens of thousands of people who care a lot about doing
the right think because it is part of company culture.

That counts for something, at least, a check and balance.

~~~
betterth
Why is SPYW default? Why does Google anti-competitively fill it's search with
preferred results for it's own services?

More than likely, you won't notice the change in what you're working on.

You're presuming you'll find something inexcusable, but it never works that
way.

You boil the frog by starting with room temperature water.

------
czhiddy
Tim implies that Apple knowingly ordered the switch to n-hexane in "their
factories" (actually Wintek's) to improve production numbers, with no regard
for the safety of the workers. Evil indeed!

Sorry, I'm gonna need to see some proof before I believe that version.
Everything I've read points to Wintek management (who have a long history of
reported labor abuses) cutting corners left and right to make more profit.

------
andreiursan
Yet another Google vs Apple. In the article he gave example the Apple
factories in China and the employees in China. But what about Google's yellow
badge employees in USA?
[http://www.andrewnormanwilson.com/portfolios/70411-workers-l...](http://www.andrewnormanwilson.com/portfolios/70411-workers-
leaving-the-googleplex) Remember?

------
lukifer
Large, publicly-traded corporations are highly incentivized towards
sociopathy, with the only counteracting force being reputation and public
opinion, which in practice still leaves a wide berth for bad behavior. The
question shouldn't be why Apple and Google are evil, but why they aren't
_more_ evil. (Give it time.)

------
wes-exp
This is the second time recently that Tim O'Reilly has publicly blasted Apple.
Before this it was something about OS X.

I wonder how Tim feels about iBooks? Perhaps what's really upsetting is the
thought that book publishers will become obsolete?

~~~
thezoid
I believe that iBooks also count as a publisher minus all the 'good' things a
publisher would give you. So I wouldn't say that publishers are going to
become obsolete, I'd just say if iBooks really does pick up we'll have 1
publisher instead of several.

Doesn't sound good for authors or readers.

~~~
wes-exp
Whether iBooks is a good thing or a bad thing is beside the point. All I'm
trying to do is point out the possibility that O'Reilly be could biased
against Apple due to his business concerns as a book publisher.

------
Aloisius
There is a reason why Google's mantra is Don't Be Evil rather than Be Good.
Very few companies are Good. Most are neutral. Google might have some diseased
bits near its heart, but evil? No. Certainly not Good though.

------
bgruber
i'm disturbed that tim o'reilly, of all people, is shocked--shocked!--to
discover that apple's products are manufactured in some not-so-great places.

it does make me think that this story really needs more mainstream press.

------
sc00ter
[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-
apples-i...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-
and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html)

------
rexf
tl;dr - Data is the future (what Google is collecting); Apple squeezing
manufacturers on price leading to poor working conditions is bad.

~~~
martythemaniak
tl;dr - Collecting data isn't evil, doing bad things is evil. Google hasn't
done anything evil, by comparison Apple has and is celebrated for it.

~~~
estel
No, Tim says:

> There are many things that Google does that I consider as violations of its
> "Don't be evil" mantram (including profiting from ads from content farms,
> spammers, IP thieves, et al), but collecting and analyzing user data isn't
> one of them

------
jmduke
One company's transgressions does not excuse another's.

------
brudgers
An important difference is that one cannot effectively opt out of Google's
data collection when using the internet, while one can avoid using Apple's
products.

Google is high-fructose corn syrup, Apple is McDonald's.

~~~
jrockway
It's pretty easy to opt out of being tracked. Install noscript and adblock,
and don't load anything from Google's servers. Done.

(Not to mention the standard "do not track" support. But you might not want
trackers to track the fact that you don't want to be tracked. So cut them out
of the loop and avoid their content completely.)

~~~
brudgers
Noscript leaves many websites unavailable because they do not load without
google-APIs. Some sites even will not load without allowing google-analytics.

As for googles _opt out_ policies, they only apply in so far as one is already
logged into a Google account - hardly more effective than simply not logging
in to Google.

[Edit] How practical are your recommended solutions for the 13 year old
children Google is now seeking to track? Never mind trying to apply noscript
and adblock on a mobile device.

------
Craiggybear
Google, Apple, Microsoft. All of them are evil. Of course they are. Once you
accept that, well you can choose with which one to do business. Because you're
going to HAVE to sooner or later. And in ways you didn't even imagine or
didn't suspect they were involved with.

------
aneth
I do hope Google Plus is not the future of blogging. Much better to have
stylized, distributed hosting with distributed syndicated commenting than the
monotonous (and Safari on iPhone crashing) Google Plus.

------
beatle
This is a cultural, social and political issue first. economics is secondary.

As a foreign-owned corporation Microsoft, Amazon, Dell, HP, Sony, Samsung,
HTC, Motorola, Apple do not have the authority, leverage or government support
to change something that is so fundamental to China's culture and politics.
This is the responsibility of Foxconn and the Chinese Government.

Are we forgetting something? This is China we're talking about. Foreigners do
not have any say in this.

~~~
georgemcbay
"Foreigners do not have any say in this."

That's a load of horseshit.

Foreigners were the lever used to end the Apartheid regime in South Africa due
to the divestment movement which cut off economic support to the South African
government, effectively forcing it to change.

This happened not only against the wishes of the South African government but
also against the wishes of much of the then-American government (under
Reagan).

Of _course_ foreigners have a say in this, if they have the will to act upon
their principles.

~~~
rsynnott
> This happened not only against the wishes of the South African government
> but also against the wishes of much of the then-American government (under
> Reagan).

This is a somewhat idealistic view. South Africa only really came under
serious pain when _countries_ embargoed them, particularly the UK and then the
US (Desmond Tutu went to Washington and guilted the US government into
producing a veto-proof majority for the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act;
Reagan having vetoed it first timed round).

------
wavephorm
I guess Tim doesn't really comprehend the definitively Orwellian future that
Google has in store for their users, and anyone who accesses any of their
services. Centralized sharing and data storage, centralized application
servers, centralized everything. All your data, email, communications,
everything flowing through Google, and no hope of ever escaping their ads and
related data analysis systems.

Google appears to really believe that people are going to sit around like
sheep and let them rape every aspect of their online lives, and I can
guarantee you this is not how it will play out. This is not the future I want.
And Google will one day find out the hard way how wrong they are about their
vision.

~~~
moultano
Rape? Really?

There's some impedance mismatch in communication here that I don't quite
understand.

~~~
wavephorm
Yes Google is figuratively raping its users. Google is using dystopian fiction
like 1984 as its blueprint for control and survellience its users, and the
modification and manipulation of information.

You either understand this or you're the sheep that put money in its pockets.

~~~
moultano
I call Poe's Law on this one.

