
Sorry, Virginia, there is no... - JacobAldridge
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.santaclaus13dec13,0,591322.story
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chaosmachine
Santa Claus is a useful lesson for kids. They learn not to blindly trust
authorities, and to think critically about things that are too good to be
true.

I remember when my sister discovered there was no Santa Claus. Literally
seconds later, she asked "wait, does that mean there's no God either?" My mom
was shocked. Funny how that works.

~~~
noarchy
If only more kids were as astute :)

Santa Claus often serves as an entry-level fairytale, a kind of prep for what
will be believed later in life.

~~~
chanux
Maria Montessori had an objection in fairy tails for kids. She argued that it
does more bad than good when used at wrong age.

Read more at here
[http://www.archive.org/stream/mariamontessorih000209mbp/mari...](http://www.archive.org/stream/mariamontessorih000209mbp/mariamontessorih000209mbp_djvu.txt)

(look for "The Question of Fairy Tales")

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axod
Someone needs to get in touch with their young self a little. Jeez lighten up.
Go watch Miracle on 34th street a few times.

Believing in Santa is _FAR_ far better for the world than being religious.

>> "children... - they want the truth - "

BS. They don't want to know just how completely fucked up the world is.
_that's_ immoral. Give them at least a few years of blissful ignorance.

Here's what happens when you tell kids the truth (I know, article wasn't quite
saying this, but it reminded me):

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP1hqaN8riU>

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFfb4dWB9vM>

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8iyxFLaSXw>

~~~
unalone
See, the issue here is that you seem to think without a heavy layer of
delusion, the world is fucked up. What about those of us who think the world
is incredible and wonderful, and that there's more than enough magic for kids
to spend a lifetime in love with without ever needing to be lied to in order
to obtain it?

Here's where I point out that the Santa Claus we know and love was invented
outright by Coca Cola in the early 20th century in order to sell product. So
it's not even that you're perpetuating an ancient fantasy, it's that you're
perpetuating a marketing myth. I'm fine with pervasive marketing, but the fact
that you think without it kids will be fucked up goes to show how effective
Coke's strategy was.

~~~
axod
I can see you're the dad in those clips ;)

Lying (selectively and in moderation) is the foundation of having human
relations with other people. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy the wonders of
the world, share love and grow up to be well rounded interesting people. It's
just another thing people need to learn - when to lie, and when to tell the
truth. The idea that all lying is bad, is ridiculous.

My daughter lost a tooth yesterday, and we've told her to put it under her
pillow so the tooth fairy can give her some money for it. Is that also wrong
in some strange way? It's an example of many lies that people tell when people
are worried/in pain, that make them feel better.

And FWIW, Cokes strategy is lame, since we buy Pepsi due to the better taste.
I don't think the connection between Father Christmas and Coke is extremely
strong in the UK, it's just another corp. that has TV ads on around xmas
featuring him.

~~~
unalone
Coke's strategy was back in the 20s, dude. I don't think anybody on this site
was old enough to remember it. But they created the modern image of Santa
Claus, and we still use it. When you show your kid the cheery fat guy in the
red suit, you're showing him what was once an ad.

I'm not saying that lying is inherently evil or anything. I'm just saying that
I don't see the point in telling fibs to kids, particularly dull,
unimaginative ones. If I'm going to peddle in myths, there're a thousand more
fascinating ones to tell, and I can tell them and let my kids know it was a
story. Or d'you think that letting kids know it's a fiction spoils the fun?

But me, I'm a fan of telling people the truth even when it's not socially
correct. So perhaps I'm not this perfect little social nook that fits into
your model. I see nothing wrong with letting young kids know that there's pain
to go with all the pleasure. Means growing up they won't be the cynical shits
I'm forced to deal with daily right now.

~~~
axod
I know this fairy tale sounds good - coke invented santa and it's all a
marketing ploy - but it's untrue.

[http://www.christmascarnivals.com/father-christmas/father-
ch...](http://www.christmascarnivals.com/father-christmas/father-christmas-
figure.html)

"The figure of Father Christmas as a jolly and friendly old man, with a small
stature but a big heart, emerged through the writings and paintings of the
artists during the 1800s. Clement Moore was the first to describe our Father
Christmas as the chubby old man, with rosy cheeks, wearing a furry overcoat
and hat in his poem, which inspired Robert Weir to paint the first portrait of
Santa Claus in 1837. He made Santa wear a short suit and a stocking hat as he
puffs at his long clay pipe. Finally it was in 1863, that we get to see Santa
more as a real person through the pictures drawn by Thomas Nast. This is the
final Father Christmas figure that we now commonly see being used for
Christmas accessories and ornaments."

And a picture from 1800s shows him as the 'cheery fat guy in the red suit'.

[http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-
art/522799/67600/M...](http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-
art/522799/67600/Merry-Old-Santa-Claus-by-Thomas-Nast#)

So no, when I show my kids pictures of Santa Claus, it's absolutely nothing
whatsoever to do with Coke.

~~~
unalone
Coke consolidated the image of Santa Claus and popularized that exact image of
him. They didn't _invent_ the red, but without their work it would not have
become the de facto standard.

~~~
axod
Maybe in America, I don't know. Over here, it's as I quoted above.

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noonespecial
_Death: Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling
angel meets the rising ape. Susan: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Death: Yes.
As practice, you have to start out learning to believe the little lies. Susan:
So we can believe the big ones? Death: Yes._

Some of my favorite Pratchett. If you know how the passage continues then you
know why its relevant here. If not, I strongly recommend!

------
aufreak3
I suppose the "I don't lie to my kids" gang tells their kids the _real_ truth
about how they were born when asked?

Give the kids a break. Let them have some fun and holidays. They don't need to
grow up on day one, do they?

... further more, its perfectly reasonable, I presume, to tell them about an
omniscient being who listens to the prayers of billions of people every
second, every day and answers them? The Santa Claus "lie" is much more benign
compared to that one.

Ho! Ho! Ho!

~~~
unalone
_I suppose the "I don't lie to my kids" gang tells their kids the real truth
about how they were born when asked?_

Is there anything wrong with that? Conception is really, really cool. Like how
having sex with people leads to babies.

You don't have to get into the details when they're young, but saying "Me and
Mommy made you" is a simple, honest answer that _might_ provoke more questions
and an interesting talk.

~~~
khafra
I think he was referring to the "20 sweaty minutes in the back of a Volkswagen
after the club and we forgot the condoms" part; but omitting that might fall
under "unnecessary detail" rather than "outright fibbing."

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j_baker
My favorite part is the warning at the beginning. Apparently, they don't
believe that kids shouldn't be told about Santa Claus _that_ strongly.

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IgorPartola
"Okay. I know you're not the real Santa... But I know you work for him." ~
Kevin McCallister.

How about teaching your kids about the boogie man who will snatch them if they
misbehave? Anybody ever had German fairytales read to them when they were
young? Gory stuff.

~~~
ZeroGravitas
Are you familiar with motion-based alarm systems that show a red LED when they
detect motion? I heard of one parent that told their offspring that those were
video cameras linked up to Santa and that the red light meant he was watching.

~~~
IgorPartola
Fantastic! There's also this thing: <http://www.elfontheshelf.com>

It's an elf that sits on the shelf and at night "goes to talk to Santa".

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khafra
The site comment equating the strong a-Santa position with cold oatmeal, gray
pajamas, and a cheerless disposition made me think of Eliezer Yudkowsky's
essay about joy in the merely
real--<http://lesswrong.com/lw/or/joy_in_the_merely_real/>

It seems applicable to the article as a whole, as well as most of the
reactions to it.

------
DanielBMarkham
Somebody isn't getting much from Santa this year...

I could take the easy route with "Geez! Dude! Lighten up!" But since I hate
telling the fat guy stories myself, I'm probably best to defend them.

First, we live in a world of incomplete knowledge in which creativity is the
natural way to explore. Creating group myths that we then perpetuate is a
perfectly natural method of action. Little ones believe everything, medium-
sized ones realize they were tricked and believe nothing, and old ones realize
the story is more important and has more immediate value than the proof. (This
is not a defense of fideism, just an acknowledgement that enjoying stories and
pretending has a wonderful immediate impact while being a sour puss does
nothing for one's disposition)

Second, it keeps kids from being greedy. (This is the one I like the most). If
kids knew you were the ones buying all that crap? They'd be hounding you day
and night for more. About the time kids realize that resources are finite is
also about the time they figure out the fat man stuff, so it all works out.

Finally I take exactly the opposite view of the author: being purposely lied-
to about the suited-one is a great introduction to how people screw around
with the truth when talking to each other. It's a great life lesson in what to
believe (or not). Some kids will take the lesson and choose that selecting
what to believe is like going to a buffet -- logic has no role. Some kids will
err on the other side and choose that unless you can prove something beyond a
shadow-of-a-doubt it's not worthy of consideration. Either way, it's a great
introduction to both extremes of thought. And these extremes have to be
managed throughout one's life.

Like I said, I'm definitely not a fan of the fat-guy story. I tend to err on
the brutally-honest side. I also feel like society has foisted this on me as a
parent against my wishes. But having said that, it really is a valid criticism
of the article to just say "Geesh! Get a life!"

We all get stuck on the golden rule -- do unto others as you would have them
do unto you. But there is a better rule than that, sometimes called the
platinum rule -- do unto others as you would have them do unto you _if you
were them_. We need to treat people by putting ourselves in their shoes and in
their world first. Life sucks enough and it takes a good long while to learn
to dance above the abyss. Making up fun stories for kids as a crutch for a few
years is a natural, productive, and useful tool, even if it bugs lots of
folks, including me.

~~~
Psyonic
Your platinum rule is messed up, because it requires you to know their
thoughts

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nopassrecover
I can't recall ever actually believing in Santa/Tooth Fairy etc. Can others?

