
Ask HN: Building a large webapp today - what language for the backend, and why? - swix
As the title reads, what platform/language would you pick for the backend, and why? Taking into consideration development time, costs and maintainability. Given you/your team were/are equally experienced with all languages/platforms. Thanks!
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hendzen
For a 'large' webapp I would honestly go with Java. A good stack is Jetty for
the http server, and Jersey/JAX-RS for the web framework. The JVM is
unbeatable, and you will have an easy time onboarding people since everyone
knows Java.

It's not as 'hip' as Rails/Django but you will be very productive and you will
have the benefit of the plethora of Java libraries out there that are
performant and reliable. Not to mention the great profiling tools.

~~~
Avalaxy
I would prefer ASP.NET MVC (thus C#) over the Java platform. The .NET stack is
extremely powerful (much better than Java imho) and the ASP.NET MVC framework
has a lot of the features that make RoR great (it's just must faster than
Ruby).

~~~
tomasien
This is the first time in my life I've seen someone defend C# and .NET. I
don't know that I've been looking very hard though.

~~~
Avalaxy
I take it that it's not popular around here because this site is full of Apple
lovers, but there is not denying that C# is 'Java done right/better', so I
really see no reason to use Java over C#.

Furthermore C# has the best IDE in the world (Visual Studio), it has a lot
better performance than Ruby for instance, it has a sublime integration with
web services/databases/etc., it has great documentation (MSDN)...

~~~
spobo
A lot would argue that it's a horribly cluttered and slow IDE. People who love
VIM will definitely not like Visual Studio.

That said, since the last few years Microsoft has really been on top of their
game. Their latest frameworks are easy to grasp and perform very well. C# is
also not too verbose and on top of that they are starting to push open-source
with initiatives like codeplex and NuGet. In their MVC Framework they even
push jQuery and they are core contributors to it. They recently released their
WebAPI wich is a pretty smooth way to create a REST-ful JSON/XML API.

It's definitely not a bad choice. Especially if your developers have already
mastered it.

It might not be hip (yet) but it's definitely solid. Although still lagging
behind after the trendsetters (Ruby community imo).

~~~
jaynate
Isn't comparing VIM to VS like comparing apples and oranges? One is a text
editor (although highly advanced) and one is an IDE. Would a VIM guy consider
any IDE seriously?

~~~
vampirechicken
If I were going to do .Net on windows, I'd probably use Visual Studio. The
last time I used it was about 10 years ago, and I found that it didn't get in
my way. Not having VI controls in the buffer editor would probably drive me
crazy but I'm adaptable.

I'd still be installing vim on my windows box, but when in Rome...

------
latchkey
I started my business exactly a year ago this month. My co-founder and I went
with Java on the backend for a few reasons:

1\. This is what we were most experienced in. It is important to use what you
know in a lot of circumstances because otherwise you'll have a harder time
getting off the ground with your projects. Sure, Java isn't hip/cool in a lot
of circles, but it gets the job done and there is a ton of support for it.
Libraries like Joda DateTime/Money and Jackson are lifesavers that you can't
find anywhere else. Do you want to build a business or spend time working on
your tooling?

2\. When your is new, you pivot your code a lot as you figure out the best way
to do things. I can't tell you how many times we've said: "Wow, so glad we
used a language that is easily refactored". Being able to safely make huge
sweeping changes across your entire codebase without worrying about whether or
not you are going to have runtime errors is golden.

3\. We are hosted on top of Google AppEngine using Objectify to talk to the
datastore as our database. This is another _huge_ win for us. We get unlimited
scalability with all the benefits of never having to carry a pager, manage
servers or databases. Deploying code takes 2-3 minutes and is super simple.
This means more time for adding features, which is very important when you are
just starting off. Python is another good choice here, but lacks #2.

I'm definitely not a huge fanboy of Java any longer. I do feel that it hasn't
grown with the times and I think Java has too much stuff to type out (even
with Eclipse doing most of it for me). That said, I do see Sunacle actively
working on it and 3-5 years from now, I bet there will be a shift either back
to Java (as Java8 starts to get more widely used and brings the language more
current) or to another language like Ceylon, which unfortunately just isn't
quite ready yet.

~~~
amirmansour
Scala my friend.

------
3pt14159
Python (Tornado or Twisted) + Riak.

Why? You can scale _very_ easily, write code in a higher level language that
has lots and lots of libraries, have map reduce out of the box, but you don't
need to really worry about your DB dying on you.

Here is what you do need to worry about in this set up: Eventual consistency.
But I would argue that _any_ web app at scale needs to worry about it. So if
you are coming from a company that already has lots of users and you are
writing a new app that will be in the hands of lots of people very quickly, go
with Riak + Tornado/Twisted. You'll probably want to set R = 1 or 2 and pay
special attention to conflict resolution.

------
tborg
lein new noir myBigWebApp

<http://webnoir.org/>

I think Clojure makes a lot of sense for the web, emphasis on immutability
etc. I also am a sucker for lisps, and I think the Hiccup templating system is
nice. Noir seems to do middleware well. Plus, real nerds get on that
ClojureScript.

Then again, I kind of also believe that the back-end really shouldn't do much
more than process CRUD commands, and that most of your serious application
logic should happen on the client. So it doesn't really matter. Pick something
with a DB adapter you're comfortable with and get to javascripting.

~~~
Zak
I'm inclined to agree for a few reasons other than the usual things people
cite about Clojure. These are the first to come to mind:

* The property list pattern and inheritance-like behavior are very natural and convenient with maps and records. I think that sort of thing is very helpful with large applications.

* Clojure has the ability to abstract the database (I'm thinking of Korma here) in a way that preserves and works with the relational model more directly than ORM.

Clojure's ability to leverage Java libraries also means you're unlikely to
ever get stuck implementing common functionality from scratch[0] when another
language would have a library.

[0] I did, however once write a CSV library for Clojure because it seemed
easier than using an existing Java library for the subset of functionality I
needed or writing a wrapper.

------
Bjoern
Pick what ever gives you and the people you are working with the greatest
productivity. Chances are it will get rewritten later on to address the
problems you encountered.

------
programminggeek
I like Ruby and Sinatra, but PHP with a decent Sinatra equivalent framework
like Slim would be just as nice, or Python+flask/bottle, or Java/Scala and the
Play framework. Honestly, it doesn't matter.

Use what you know and like and just build the app. Scaling is a nice problem
to have, but don't solve it until you have it.

~~~
rscale
_Use what you know and like and just build the app._

And for a large app, use what the team knows. Both dev and ops.

 _Scaling is a nice problem to have, but don't solve it until you have it._

And since scaling issues are mostly matters of architecture, rather than
language, see rule one: "use what you know."

------
olalonde
Ruby/Rails and Python/Django seem to be the most common choices among YC
startups. They are pretty much interchangeable on the development time, costs
and maintainability fronts.

------
apeace
First I would point out I'm not seeing testing frameworks being mentioned as
part of these platforms ;)

I like Node.js + Mocha

* Development in Node is super fast

* Mocha makes TDD or its variants really fun

* Node feels natural for webapps (the Hello World example is an HTTP server)

* JavaScript is a really flexible and elegant language if you get past its minor quirks

* The community is fantastic

* The built-in package manager is fantastic

* The open-source libraries are fantastic (pick the right DB for the job, there are good drivers for all of them)

There's lots to say about Node. No language is perfect for every task.

EDIT: fixed spacing

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spdy
Python/Django or Ruby on Rails. If you have to move fast and change ideas
quick and timely. Pick on of them.

Given my current project where i am the sole developer i dont want to know how
much more time i would have spent coding in e.g. PHP.

------
netgineer
I'd choose Ruby in a service oriented architecture. Use HTTP/JSON for internal
APIs between distinct systems. If performance becomes a business-limiting
factor, you can investigate replacing a single part of the system with a
lower-level language (Java, Haskell, Go, Erlang, etc).

Rails (and in particular the RailsApi gem) makes prototyping and putting
together a SOA like this easy and fast. Except for the API client, which I
don't yet have a good solution (ie, what ActiveResource was supposed to
solve).

------
spobo
Use a higher level programming language and use a standard interface to
communicate with the frontend. If you build a REST API for the backend it
doesn't even matter what language it is written in. You can always swap parts
out for faster performing versions later on. You can even split up parts in
different programming languages.

If you want to decrease development cost go with an ecosystem that most of
your developers have mastered. Python, PHP, Ruby, Java, .NET, whatever. Pretty
much all these languages have great frameworks these days to allow for faster
development.

I personally go with Ruby because they were pretty much first on the scene
with their gem ecosystem (which is massive), they have a lot of cool and smart
developers in the community and it's overal a great experience. Easy to pick
up too with all the resources that are out there.

But whatever you do don't force a language along with it's ecosystem that your
developers don't like. Listen to the dev team and know that every language has
great potential. I'd come back and ask what frameworks should I use to build a
high performance site as quickly & efficiently as possible given I work with
language X. Maybe the dev team is unaware of recent awesome frameworks in the
language they know & love.

~~~
WALoeIII
I'm a Ruby fan, but "pretty much first on the scene with their gem ecosystem"
is patently false. CPAN is much bigger, and much older.

<http://www.cpan.org/>

------
benblodgett
'Building a large webapp today'

Do you mean starting to build a large webapp today?

I would recommend Ruby on Rails or Python/Django - they allow for fast
prototyping and easy collaboration.

------
mtrn
I'd maybe go for small components with small APIs so team members could build
upon and combine on top in whatever language they want.

------
pka
I gotta go in a sec, but I'll link you to previous comments of why I recommend
Haskell [1] and/or Erlang [2] for a more massive backend architecture.

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4181223>

[2] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4341322>

------
jebblue
I recommend Java the language and base platform running on Apache Tomcat
frontended _not_ with mod_jk but with mod_proxy.

See my post here for specifics:
[http://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=9230&p=53085#p53...](http://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=9230&p=53085#p53085)

For the Web UI I recommend GWT by using Eclipse and the GWT Designer GUI web
designer they bought from the excellent folks at Instantiations back in 2010.

<https://developers.google.com/web-toolkit/tools/gwtdesigner/>
[https://developers.google.com/web-
toolkit/tools/gwtdesigner/...](https://developers.google.com/web-
toolkit/tools/gwtdesigner/wizards/gwt/uibinder_composite)

If you have customers that demand a platform GUI application which accesses
your web backend, Google donated WindowBuilder to Eclipse.

<http://www.eclipse.org/windowbuilder/>

------
interwho
Personally, I'd go with PHP.

Why?

\- It's easy to get things done fast.

\- There are plenty of classes available online that'll make things even
easier.

\- It's easier to maintain (IMHO) than some other languages.

\- It'll run on almost all web hosting services cheaply.

\- It's scaleable.

If and when you need something more powerful, a seamless transition can be
made over to another language.

~~~
p_sherman
Large webapp and seamless transition to another language are not really
compatible.

~~~
interwho
If you use the same database, and just change the code accessing it, it is.

------
daniellockard
Rails is nice, but it's really really slow. At my job we use Jetty as the
server with Play or Lift as the framework -- I think most of the devs like
Play better, though. Really easy to run as an unprivileged user and do
backends through nginx as well.

------
chucknibbleston
Just to put this out there -- since nobody has really mentioned it -- ruby (as
a language) doesn't have the greatest performance. You can do some tricks with
GC to speed it up (Ruby EE might be a faster option), but you're still looking
at 50x slower than C (python is 40x, Java 7 is around 2x, Javascript on V8 --
Node-- is 4x). So if you're planning on doing a lot on the backend, you might
want to consider breaking off your logic/processing into java or lisp or
something and using a rpc/mq system to send it tasks from your RoR/Django
app....but then again...you might not want to start with too many moving parts
:)

~~~
hendzen
I agree that ruby is slow, and I actually recommended Java, but ruby execution
is not going to be the bottleneck for a webapp, the database is.

~~~
netgineer
I disagree that the slow part of a RoR app is the database - from my anecdotal
experience, the slowest part is rendering views and the string manipulation
there-in, probalby caused by GC. For a Rails 2.3 App with REE and MySQL, time
is ~25% GC, ~25% DB and 50% ruby (from NewRelic).

However, premature optimization and all that, don't choose Java because its
faster than Ruby in some arbitrary benchmark. Choose Ruby because it makes you
happy and you can meet business objectives faster and easier with it.

------
caseyf
Something that runs on the JVM. Personally, I'd pick Ruby on JRuby.

------
js4all
It is not a matter of the language so much. Use what your team is comfortable
with. I find it super important how to structure the app. First design an API.
Then implement it on the server with corresponding tests. Then build the
frontend. Here is more to decide: server driven (server faces or server pages)
or single paged (client side MVCs)

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thirsteh
Go, for the same reasons as Java, but because Go is nicer than Java (to me.)
The stdlib net/http library is also insanely fast, handling ~40,000 (dynamic,
but not DB-backed) req/s without a sweat, and without requiring any kind of
callback spaghetti.

------
Axsuul
I agree with the use what you know mantra unless you don't know anything. Then
I would recommend Rails for the backed and Backbone.js for the front end.
Choosing popular technologies is important because it will save you and your
team a lot time.

------
prpatel
You have a number of great choices. Much depends on the team building the app
- if you want to be adventurous try: Clojure & Noir. Other options (in
particular order):

* Groovy & Grails * Ruby & Rails * Python & Django

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p_sherman
I don't know about everyone else, but I was always taught that analysis and
design come before the implementation. It's not something you do in 10 minutes
before you start making software.

------
WiseWeasel
What kind of site is it? Is there a lot of content to manage? Drupal/PHP might
even be a good tool for the job, depending on what you're trying to
accomplish. More info would be helpful.

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john_wang_wjq
Pick the the language your team most familiar with. If there are no one such
language, pick Python/Django, Clojure/Noir or Ruby/Rail, and keep yourself far
from PHP.

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nuttendorfer
You are going to rewrite it anyway if it's successful so you might start with
something easy and quick like Django or Rails.

------
ergo14
Depends on the requirements, but I suggest Python+Pyramid Web Framework - it's
so flexible that you cant go wrong with it.

------
njx
I use a mix of PHP and Java.

