
A fight against Amazon becomes a state matter in Quebec - pseudolus
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-25/a-fight-against-amazon-becomes-a-state-matter-in-quebec
======
TulliusCicero
This seems kind of doomed to fail. Amazon is appealing because it provides a
good customer experience: good prices, fast shipping, wide variety of
products, responsive customer service, etc. More local businesses fail to
compete because they mostly offer the same things with worse prices and
experience.

It's one thing to appeal to people's sense of civic responsibility for the
environment, another thing entirely for commerce. Most people just wanna get
their stuff easily and at a low price.

Now, there _are_ some weaknesses Amazon has, like having to sift through a lot
of cheap crap or copycat items while searching/browsing, as well as fake
reviews. Maybe a website that offered most of Amazon's strengths while
tackling its real flaws could be successful, but this doesn't look like that.
It just looks like a half-hearted feel good measure to make it look like
they're doing something.

~~~
user5994461
>>> it provides a good customer experience: good prices

Amazon had not offered better prices than the main brick-and-mortar shops for
a long long time. Try comparing the items you see in shops with the same on
Amazon and be Amazed.

The best are small household items. Sellers buy from Ikea and resell on
Amazon. Sometimes customers find out and they post reviews you can imagine,
"OMG this is the £4 cutlery pack from Ikea. Go to Ikea don't buy here."

~~~
jfk13
They do the same on eBay, too. I've had to warn friends that finding the
cheapest seller for a given item on eBay may still be substantially more
expensive than buying the same item directly from Ikea.

(Sometimes it does make sense to buy from the eBay or Amazon marketplace
reseller, if it's a small item where their markup + shipping is less than
Ikea's per-order delivery charge.)

~~~
m-p-3
Agreed. Just because you can get it from Amazon doesn't mean it's the cheapest
way to get it because even though the provide _free_ shipping, the price is
substantially higher to compensate that.

Buying at a brick and mortar store reduce that need for individualized
shipping, and the economies of scale of buying and delivering a large amount
of product from the manufacturers by the retailer which is physically close to
the customers help reducing costs.

~~~
Spivak
What are you guys buying on Amazon? Seriously I genuinely try to find stuff I
want at a lower price than Amazon but it’s so rare. It’s almost always cheaper
_before_ you count the free shipping.

------
ckdarby
Damn it! I live in Quebec, this province makes everything extremely
complicated and then wonders why most companies don't want to deal with them
and most people leave.

Went to buy insurance, couldn't because ToS lists countries couldn't do
business with includes, Sadi, Iran, Iraq and Quebec.

Most Canadian's know to live in this province only if you can maximize the
gains from it. Buying a first time house, starting a family, and or
immigrating to Canada.

~~~
amiga_500
I live in quebec.

My kids go to a nice school. I live in a nice neighborhood. I get the nice
metro to work. Or I cycle on the nice cycle network.

I got my covid test, and result. I saw a really good doctor the same day. The
same doctor rang me back 2 days later to check up on me at home.

My kids would normally be in and out of a fantastic, modern library, or at the
pool, or playing soccer in the great parks. Sadly the lockdown has temporarily
stopped that, but it will be back.

If I go outside I'm not avoiding the homeless in huge numbers. Rent and
housing are not absurdly expensive, allowing affordability for families.

Yes Quebec has areas to improve, but it's a great place.

If being a great place for companies made for a good society then the UK and
USA wouldn't be on their knees.

~~~
thbr99
I totally have the opposite experience in Québec. Everywhere and anything in
Québec feels red taped and low of customer service. Maybe I have to speak
French. Speaking in English and being non white gets a degraded service in
Québec.

~~~
amiga_500
"good service" is a bad sign for society. Americans have "good service"
because low income workers are one insane customer away from their lives
tipping over the edge.

Americans also complain about service in Europe, where workers are also not
treating each customer interaction as a make or break situation.

~~~
thbr99
Good service as in when I went to a restaurant, the waiter said "You have to
tip me $10 when you are done eating".

------
belval
The main issue with this approach is that it fails to address my biggest grip
with local online shopping: delivery speed.

Amazon offers 48h delivery for most products even with COVID. On the other
hand, I ordered stuff from a shop based in Montreal and it took 5 days to
arrive. Even though it was physically much closer to me.

We can argue on the "necessity" of 2-day shipping, but it is still a massive
differentiator.

~~~
igrekel
Honestly, so far the quickest delivery I've experienced was from local
businesses. Some local stores switched too what is almost pizza delivery. I
ordered gear at lunchtime and got it delivered in the afternoon. But it really
depends on the supplier. 48h delivery has been hit and miss too recently.

Now what the article doesn't say is that a lot of the businesses on "Le Panier
Bleu" do not even have an online catalog and you need to call them. In these
cases, it's pretty much the yellow pages with a different color.

~~~
filoleg
Out of curiosity, what kind of shop was that local store that gave you a same
day delivery and had a good inventory system?

Asking because I noticed that here (Seattle), a couple of specialized niche
stores do that, and it works really well, but i feel like there might be some
reason for why only those kinds of stores do that.

The one that comes to mind is Patchwerks (analog synthesizer store;
disclaimer: I have zero affiliation with that store aside from being a happy
customer). Their own online inventory system is a pleasure to work with, and
they stock all kinds of rare items that are accurately reflected in their
online system. Ordered around noon, picked up a couple hours later, it was a
true pleasure to work with. What their website displays is in stock has always
been in stock. Not even once the state of the inventory on their website
didn’t match the reality. And yet, not any other more general store I’ve seen
could even match it, whether it is a local or a larger scale store.

For example, Guitar Center’s online inventory system is a straight up joke.
What the website says is in stock at my local store is not in stock 99% of the
time. And it cuts the other way around too. Which renders the whole website
useless, as i have to call to find out what they actually have, so they can
spend 10 mins of my life on hold while they are searching for an item. Then
rinse and repeat if I want to check on another item or if i want to check
another Guitar Center that is a bit further away in a nearby town.

~~~
igrekel
It was a cooking gear store. They do not have much on the web but the person
answering the phone knows the stock amazingly well. I suspect she may have a
good inventory system under her eyes.

I've been shopping for plants recently and there is a world of difference
between two different nurseries.

------
solitus
The amount of Quebec bashing on this thread (and hacker news in general)
ironically highlights the reason why Quebec has been so protective and
defensive of its culture; get bashed and put down enough and obviously you'll
turn a little bitter towards your bullies.

~~~
jhbadger
And also turn into a bully themselves. Quebec isn't very nice to its First
Nation minorities (who often have their own non-French languages), nor are
they very nice to their native English speakers in the Eastern Townships.

------
aurizon
Quebec corruption in almost all organized labour adds a layer of cost to all
Quebeckers. Then the high taxes and enourmously overpaid civil serpents adds
another. Where does the $$ come from to cover this? There are two major
revenue sourcesL; One is the Canadian federal revenue sharing with Quebec,
called Equalization
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canad...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canada)).
All Canadians subsidize Quebec - mainly Ontario and the oil riches on Manitoba
and others with oil (used to be oil rich at any case). The other main source
of Quebec revenue is the rape of Labrador Water power revenues(part of
Newfoundland). This was a huge win for Quebec, as it gets the power at $3 per
MWh, compared to what Quebec sells it for $40-45 per MWh. Once this run out in
2041 = death of this huge cash cow for the most part, as Labrador will finish
a large EHV DC line to the USA under the sea by then, one hopes. (it is
planned and as you can see, can finance itself easily) So Quebec will find
itself in real trouble by then.

~~~
generatorguy
Quebec has profited 28 billion dollars from Churchill falls between 1971 and
2016. They built the dam for 1 billion dollars, taking on all the risk.

Quebec has great talent in electrical engineering and building hydro electric
power plants. Quebec companies bring their expertise and develop hydro power
plants across Canada and around the world for customers who don’t know how to
do it themselves, sometimes in exchange for part ownership of the project.

The power transmission had to go through quebec, any other option was
uneconomic as they are now finding out with the muskrat falls.

$45/MWH for renewable dispatchable power is cheap. $3/MWH is pratically free
but Quebec also has financing costs for the project on top of that to pay.
Plus the risk.

I don’t think Newfoundland got taken advantage of here, this is a deal that
works out well for both sides. Nobody makes a deal they don’t like - if they
had a better option they would have done that.

~~~
aurizon
if they liked it, they will sign a new and similar one. I think not, UHV DC
after 2041

~~~
generatorguy
It is not the same situation in 2041 as it was in 1969, so of course they will
not sign the same deal. They liked it at the time because it was their best
option. Now: 1\. the plant is built and paid for! there are no constructions
costs and no construction risk. 2\. energy is more expensive now, particularly
renewable dispatchable generation

They clearly have a different hand to play now than they did in 1969.

Quebec owns 33% of the plant so they will be happy if NFL sells the power to
the states at higher than the marginal cost of generation in QC.

------
Sytten
Setting aside the Quebec bashing comments in this thread. Here is a TLDR of
what I said when it came out:

1\. There is less information on that website than Google Maps, it is pretty
much useless right now. I am convinced the investigators of the project are
sincere, but they are disconnected from reality (Alexandre Taillefer is a
failure as a business man, but he has friends in high places)

2\. They spend 300k$ on this project which is made by an non-profit. This is
nowhere near enough to pretend you want to compete with Amazon. This is due to
incompetence of bureaucrats in the government who have no clue how to build a
software project.

3\. What they could have done is a partnership with Shopify since they already
built all the functionalities (search, payment, shipping, etc.) and create a
real platform that looks and feel like 2020 not 1995.... But its the Not
Invented Here syndrome that stroke again.

4\. What people want is speed of delivery and low cost of shipping. I am
simplify not waiting a week for my package to arrive via a shitty service like
UPS where I need to be home to receive it. I am also proposing the government
subsidies the shipping cost for small retailers to make it more appealing to
buy from them.

5\. Another idea I had would be to create a competing product to Amazon prime
which would combine a subscription to tou.tv, free shipping on this Amazon-
like website and an audio streaming service for Quebec music, I am 100% sure
it would be a hit.

In summary, we have to stop the "magical" thinking that if we create a broken
website in bootstrap that feels like its 1995 all over again we are going to
save local businesses and make people shop in local stores. We have to build
something that is modern and appeal to customers. But considering the people
they have on board, I doubt it will ever happen...

------
brushfoot
I'd love to see an Amazon lookalike with solely local results. I.e., local
stores list their inventories, accept payment, and do delivery. Does anything
like _that_ exist?

Marketing and integration would be hurdles: You'd have to convince businesses
to integrate, and you'd have to become a household name to consumers. You'd
have to write integrations for the menagerie of systems small businesses use,
or else become key enough for them to switch.

Local makers could use it, too. I'd expect that'd become more important as
things like 3D printing and working from home continue to grow.

~~~
tgtweak
Lightspeed (POS) is well positioned to offer this. They have all inventories,
prices, skus, supplier prices (cost) and the scale to logistically implement
this via the store management software they already have all merchants
running.

You could order via their single portal, have it fulfilled from the nearest
store, and then dispatch delivery and track it all in one place. Would be a
one-click enable for most merchants. Many of them are not large enough to run
a full online store, and there isn't enough consumer trust to buy from every
mom and pop website our there (nor should there be).

Seems like a nice migration path for brick and mortar - like Uber eats but
less predatory.

~~~
thbr99
Marketing speak. Do you work there ?

~~~
tgtweak
No but they're one of the biggest I know in this space and I know a few people
that have worked there.

------
schnischna
I don't understand that kind of thing: the government is presumably elected by
the people. Why would the people want the government to fight a business that
they could voluntarily avoid, without any government intervention whatsoever?

I mean the government represents what the people want. The people apparently
want to buy at local businesses, rather than at Amazon. Why don't they simply
do it?

Or if they actually DO want to shop at Amazon, why would they want the
government to prevent them from doing it?

~~~
Hokusai
> Why would the people want the government to fight a business that they could
> voluntarily avoid, without any government intervention whatsoever?

In my case, I am willing to pay more to the local shop if everybody is doing
it. If Im the only one, the benefit is lost but I personally pay the cost.

You can see it as a community agreement. When I travel with friends we agree
to pay each one a lunch, it is way faster than to pay individually. But, I
agree to do it because all of us agree. If Im the only one, the it is
problematic.

~~~
CountSessine
_You can see it as a community agreement. When I travel with friends we agree
to pay each one a lunch, it is way faster than to pay individually. But, I
agree to do it because all of us agree. If Im the only one, the it is
problematic._

Except that you and your friends agreed to do this voluntarily. I want to shop
at Amazon and I don't want to pay for a government alternative that's a sop to
obstreperous and uncompetitive local retailers. I'm buying your lunch twice.

~~~
Hokusai
> I want to shop at Amazon and I don't want to pay for a government
> alternative

And I want abortion to not be restricted, and that other person wants to
discriminate by age, and that other one wants to throw the trash to the street
or I want let my factory dump dangerous chemicals into a river.

Democracy is NOT perfect. But, it is a great solution. Even if sometimes you
need to follow a law that you do not fully agree with. And, if it does not
work you are free to express your side of the story, go to the justice system
if the laws are unconstitutional, and also vote differently next time. That's
a very good system.

~~~
CountSessine
No - democracy and social responsibility aren’t perfect and I’m fine with
that. But don’t dress up coercion and force as “community agreement” and
compare it to a bunch of friends who’ve agreed to voluntarily pay for each
other’s lunches.

I haven’t agreed to anything and you’re forcing me to pay for this. You’ve got
my money. But you don’t get to delude yourself that you have my willing
cooperation.

------
LatteLazy
I do 90% of my shopping online usually. Right now, amazon (and Union coffee)
are the only working online retailers in the UK as far as I can tell. Every
other online store is shut except for takeaways.

Thank god for Amazon. If I relied to local stores I'd be sat here with no
electricity in half the house.

------
didibus
One thing I did wish Amazon did was to have more localized options. Be able to
restrict search to products or sellers from a particular area would be nice.
Same for comments and reviews.

~~~
Marsymars
Amazon comments and reviews are country-specific, so living in a small country
would probably have much of the effect you're looking for.

Tangentially, app store reviews are also country specific. Annoying when I'm
looking for a relatively niche app that may have 50 reviews with a handful
containing good information in the US app store, but the Canadian app store
has 3 reviews, none of which are useful.

------
m3at
It's a bit ironic, the first picture in the article describe a "street of
small businesses", but while it's technically correct, the shop in center is
no anonymous mom and dad shop, Schwartz is a famous landmark in Montréal [1].

Maybe that's a good way to fight against Amazon? Having a reputable business
with a steady quality over time.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwartz%27s](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwartz%27s)

------
shrimpx
I’d trust an institution that’s gone through a federal investigation or two
way more than an equivalent institution run by Billy Bob who lives in town and
is on nobody’s radar because his operation is too small to affect things at
scale.

------
thbr99
I would never buy anything from this sort of site especially if done by the
Québec government. They should try to fix their Senior Home Covid-19 situation
due to lack of healthcare workers because of their absurd healthcare system
rules unlike rest of Canada. The premier of Quebec CAQ govt. is populist and
wants to throw some raw meat to his voter base. The next one will be immigrant
bashing.

~~~
jefft255
These two issues are orthogonal. But thank you for taking the time to do your
usual Québec bashing which you always seem to love doing when you get the
chance.

~~~
thbr99
I am a part of a group (immigrant) which Québec CAQ politicians likes to
bash/scapegoat when they get the chance. So let me bash them here when I get
the chance. Thank you for noticing and sorry if you got butt hurt being a
Quebecois.

Québec must learn to walk before they run. Have you seen their Panier Bleu
site ? I might as well use yellow pages instead of that.

~~~
jefft255
Yes of course being of the HN crowd I’m not impressed by the website. You
know, all quebeckers share the passion of complaining about our government ;)

------
mschuster91
It's good to see that finally people are doing something about the utter
dominance that Amazon has managed to achieve.

While I do get the benefits of online delivery to customers (especially in the
current pandemic situation or for people too old or impaired to walk/drive),
the situation is much more dire for their communities across the world:

1) Many towns rely on some sort of commercial tax on local companies to fund
their operations. Amazon however only pays taxes where they employ people
(i.e. some random small-ish villages near highways), but not where they sell
stuff - this means that as more sales shift from physical retail to online,
the funding of the town goes down.

2) With delivery of food taking over, small stores that enable local people to
buy e.g. groceries without needing a car get unprofitable which means they go
six feet under and people are forced to drive to the next town having a
Walmart or other kind of large supermarket.

3) The more stores close, the less attractive the mall or the area becomes.
"Storefront blight" makes an area less attractive to potential and existing
residents, invites vandals (smashed glasses, graffiti, ...) which in the worst
case creates a negative self-reinforcing spiral to the bottom. Additionally,
the jobs that are lost there may (!) be replaced on a national level by
additional hirings in Amazon warehouses or delivery companies, but again, as
delivery centers tend to be centralized, this creates another loss for the
communities. Depending on the country, this job loss may hit communities
further when the community is responsible for unemployment or other social
benefits (e.g. housing) and not the state/federal government.

4) The tax loss also hits the countries: Amazon (and other mega corporations
such as IKEA) can and do exploit complex tax loopholes to avoid as much
corporate tax as they can.

~~~
kapuasuite
Now compare the cost of what you mentioned in monetary terms to the cost
savings for consumers (which is essentially everyone) - which is larger?

~~~
juskrey
Would you prefer local business employed and pay more for everything, or pay
less for everything and have unemployed unhappy people around?

~~~
natalyarostova
The former. That’s why I still hire our local horse-drawn-buggy service. Car
purchasers have destroyed their industry and eliminated jobs.

~~~
juskrey
I hope you at least purchase Chinese garlic, to not overload local dudes too
much.

