
A history of roguelike games - aww_dang
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/03/ascii-art-permadeath-the-history-of-roguelike-games/
======
sdenton4
I looooove Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. There was a five-year period or so where
it was about the only game I played. (Things got worse when I discovered that
there are two-week tournaments that are essentially a war on productivity...
How many times and in how many different ways can you beat the game in a two-
week period? Your team is depending on you! Down with sleep!)

Their design philosophy is fantastic:
[https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-
ref/docs/cr...](https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-
ref/docs/crawl_manual.rst#n-philosophy-pas-de-faq)

The core concept is that all choices should be /meaningful/. 'No-brainers' are
ruthlessly pruned away, or given interesting side effects that could be
situationally useful or terrible. And also, avoid anything that looks like
grinding. These people speak my language...

~~~
fiddlerwoaroof
I like DCSS, but I’ve found the recent releases are making it less fun by
removing mechanics I liked. E.g. removing inventory weight limits, food types
and nerfing abilities that modify the dungeon.

~~~
pmarreck
Inventory weight limits add grind due to having to manually shuttle items
around instead

Also there is just nothing fun about inventory management IMHO.

In Skyrim I always did a player.modav carryweight 10000 and things became SO
much more fun.

~~~
fiddlerwoaroof
I always enjoyed optimizing my items for the next branch in DCSS, plus
worrying about dropping dangerous weapons, lest an enemy pick it up and use it
on me. (Which has also been removed)

~~~
pmarreck
ah crap that sounds like fun actually because that would in fact happen.

The game should have options that let you toggle things like that

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pfarnsworth
I've been playing Hack/Nethack since 1982-ish. My friend got it for his IBM
PC, and we were both addicted. The only reason why I kept asking for a
computer for my parents was so that I could play Hack. I was the one who
figured out that the Amulet of Yendor was underneath a boulder on level 26. My
friend, however, one-upped me. At some point, his version of Hack was
corrupted, so every time he read a scroll of identify, the game would crash.
So he had to go through the entire game without reading a scroll or using
rings. He was able to make it through the entire game and finish it, which I
admit is an impressive feat.

I've been playing Nethack since, although I haven't played it in the last few
years because of work and kids. There was a time in Nethack where it wasn't as
complicated, but once they added all the deeper features, I've never completed
the game and ascended. The game is now so deep and so complicated that I
couldn't solve it without reading the cheats, and even following those, and
even saving my games and redoing them, I've never gotten to the point where I
could ascend. I'm really good at surviving the lower levels and stealing from
shops, but I've never been able to figure out how to ascend. At some point, I
should reattempt this now that I'm locked down for 2 months.

~~~
mihaifm
It can certainly be completed without spoilers, but it requires a bit of trial
and error. I managed to ascend after 2-3 months of intense play...and a lot of
dying. I think part of the joy of playing nethack is discovering how things
work, so highly recommend not to read any spoilers. The best way to learn the
mechanics is to install the game locally and play in explore mode. The game
offers a lot of alternate ways to do stuff (because of conducts), but if you
don't care about conducts characters tend to become a bit too powerful towards
the end game. It's all a matter of surviving the early game, where you don't
have resistances, skills etc. and where most people give up.

~~~
zipwitch
Playing without spoilers would be very challenging indeed. And you're right
about the early game - there's a breakpoint where you've got enough food, hit
points, AC, damage-dealing capability, and miscellaneous tricks (if you know
how to use them) where the only think that's going to kill you is YASDing
yourself. And then the game transforms into prepping (and prepping, and
prepping some more) for the ascension run while staying alert enough that you
don't YASD yourself because you forgot something or panicked. (You never have
to panic in Nethack.)

------
dmbaggett
If you’re looking for a fresh roguelike rabbit hole, check out Cogmind. It’s
PC only but takes RL in an interesting new direction. (Not affiliated with it
other than begin somewhat addicted.)

~~~
pyridines
The development blog
[https://www.gridsagegames.com/blog/](https://www.gridsagegames.com/blog/) is
a fascinating look into the design of the game that goes back years.

------
umvi
I know permadeath is a core mechanic of roguelikes, but I absolutely hate it.
It's an artificial time waster.

Imagine trying to learn a piano piece, but instead of being able to practice
the hard parts over and over until you've mastered them, you always have to
restart from the very beginning at the first mistake.

Net result: you get extremely good at the beginning, to the point that it's
boring, and you always get whooped by the hard part because you barely ever
get to practice it (you have to sink an hour doing easy stuff just to get 5
seconds practicing the hard stuff)

~~~
the5dysfunction
All video games are an artificial time waster. You either get roguelikes or
you don't. You clearly don't.

Let's take your analogy and flip it around:

Imagine trying to play a game, but instead of a logical progression with
consequences, you can just pick it up from whatever point you like. If you
die, it doesn't matter. You can just completely skip over that part and head
to the next. In fact you can begin the game at the final boss if you want.

Net result: you get extremely good at nothing to the point that it's boring
because you never have to practice or repeat a single thing.

~~~
umvi
I get roguelikes, but as my life has gotten more time constrained, I've grown
less tolerant of shenanigans like permadeath that artificially prevent me from
practicing and mastering the parts of the game I'm weakest at, instead making
me sink most of my time into the parts of the game I've already mastered.

I'm not saying get rid of permadeath, I'm saying make it optional like Hollow
Knight, IWtbTG, or any numerous other games where time constrained people can
use save points to master the game mechanics more quickly, and kids with
infinite time can play permadeath mode to their heart's content.

------
Andrew_nenakhov
Ragnarok deserves more than one paragraph. Among many of it's great features
was the one I personally loved most: sometimes you could meet a ghost of your
past self, complete with all your inventory. Sometimes I even made this my
strategy, dying as lots of scribes (weakest class at start, who carried a
highly prized and rare item, a quill), then starting as blacksmith, which was
easiest to survive in early stages. Quill was essential to win: you could
always switch class to scribe after some level to write scrolls, but finding a
quill was extremely hard.

~~~
pfarrell
I’ve been playing iNethack on my phone (Uses 3.4.3). I ran into a ghost of
myself last night. I was in a 1 square dead end tunnel with no digging tools
and out of food. I thought I was going to starve to death before it finally
moved. Really starting to have fun with it, but can barely make it 12 levels
down :).

~~~
moomin
So back at University a friend of mine had NetHack (3.0) and a lot of us
played in it. I had a game where I simultaneously had the incredible luck to
have my dog get polymorphed into a Xorn and then the bad luck to leave a bones
file.

Quite a lot of people got wiped out by a pet Xorn.

~~~
schoen
Did your old xorn end up as part of _their_ bones files, too?

I feel like I've seen this online at some point, where there were lots of
ghosts because they were all getting killed by the same thing and then
accumulating in new bones files.

~~~
moomin
Yeah, it was on a level where it was simultaneously quite deep but not deep
enough that you stood a chance when it came through the walls (you didn’t
exactly get much warning you were on a bones level).

But yes, quite a few people have experienced this by now.

------
danbolt
Each year Roguebasin hosts the 7DRL challenge where people look to create a
finished roguelike in seven days. I participated this year and found it a
pretty thoughtful meditation on the genre.

[https://7drl.com/](https://7drl.com/)

~~~
philsnow
There's a _lot_ of gems in here, and in older 7DRL entries as well.

The nature of the format means that games (the ones that are actually
finished) are focused, often highlighting one or two novel gameplay mechanics
and/or mood/design elements. Anything more than that and the designer can't
finish in 7 days. This also means that entries from 10 years ago is just as
playable ( _IF_ you can get them to run) as the entries from this year.

Cogmind (mentioned elsewhere on this thread) started as a 7drl.

Each year they have judges grade each entry, so you can look at archives like
[http://www.roguetemple.com/7drl/2010/](http://www.roguetemple.com/7drl/2010/)
to find the highest-rated ones and focus your search there, if you like.

Roguelike Radio usually has a show about the 7drl results, e.g.
[http://www.roguelikeradio.com/2018/05/episode-145-7drls-2018...](http://www.roguelikeradio.com/2018/05/episode-145-7drls-2018.html)
.

------
earenndil
This is not that great of an article, IMO. A prominent developer of one of the
roguelikes mentioned says:

> you can immediately see that this article was stitched together by throwing
> some wikipedia articles together if it references the Berlin interpretation

> it's also hilarious if the guild of disgruntled adventurers is referenced as
> fun addition :)

> I'm not sure if I should feel insulted [by the article's description of my
> roguelike]

I mostly agree with these. I also feel a bit slighted by one of the
descriptions. I'm also not sure quite what to make of the fact that they don't
mention the two most prominent recent roguelikes: caves of qud, and cogmind.

------
jhallenworld
I enjoyed urogue (ultra-rogue I think) as shipped with SCO Xenix. I had
previous experience with nethack, but urogue was frankly easier.

I think it's this:
[https://github.com/RoguelikeRestorationProject/urogue1.03](https://github.com/RoguelikeRestorationProject/urogue1.03)

------
platz
The roguelike game mechanic is fantastic, but it really needs to break out of
the fantasy theme in a big way.

~~~
autarch
Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead
([https://cataclysmdda.org/](https://cataclysmdda.org/)) is ab open source
post-apocalyptic near future scifi roguelike. The best way to play it is with
a launcher:

Windows GUI launcher - [https://github.com/remyroy/CDDA-Game-
Launcher/releases](https://github.com/remyroy/CDDA-Game-Launcher/releases)

Linux/Docker CLI launcher -
[https://github.com/houseabsolute/catalauncher/releases](https://github.com/houseabsolute/catalauncher/releases)

The Linux one is mine and could in theory work on macOS too. Patches are
welcome.

~~~
jmiskovic
Surprisingly I found the best way to play was on the phone. First spend some
time on PC to get familiar with mechanics and interface, then switch to
mobile. Some things are horrible, like on-screen keyboard frequently obscuring
more than half of screen, and some hard to read text. Some things are easier,
like swipe to move and a toolbar with recent key shortcuts.

The thing that makes it worthwhile is that it is so easy to jump in and out of
the game. You play few moves while waiting in line, then put it in your
pocket. Play for half an hour while watching TV. Your player gets into
impossible situation, just put the game away and resume later with fresh
ideas. The game is so deep you can get a feeling of living a parallel life.
You pause your life to play game, then you pause game to continue your life.
Can be a surreal experience. It is so much more complex and satisfying than
your average mobile game.

------
every
As luck would have it, I've spent much of the afternoon working on my orc
rogue in nethack 3.7.0 via ssh on hardfought.org. Being elderly and self-
sequestered from the plague has its rewards...

------
oweiler
While more of a twin stick shooter, Enter The Gungeon deserved being mentioned
here. I've spent the last 4 months with that game and it's still fun. I has a
huge number of weapons, actives, passives, synergies which can be combined in
crazy ways (some break the game deliberatly). Almost no run plays like the
other.

~~~
cheald
I think ETG is technically a "roguelite", but yes, it's a wonderful entry.
Binding of Isaac is another, but it's so dark and disturbing that it puts many
people off - which is a bit of a shame, because mechanically, it's
spectacular. Dead Cells, Nuclear Throne, Crypt of the Necrodancer (and its
sister game, Cadence of Hyrule), Risk of Rain, and Wizard of Legend are some
of my recent similar favorites, too.

Slay the Spire is often also called a roguelike, and if it gets its teeth into
you, watch out. Steam says I have 350 hours logged in it and I still enjoy the
heck out of it.

~~~
vvanders
Nuclear Throne is outstanding and really deserves more recognition.

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floatboth
> Out of the two-dozen-or-so NetHack variants, the most notable are probably
> SLASH'EM/SLASH'EM Extended and UnNetHack

Congratulations Amy, slex has been noted by Ars Technica now :D

~~~
tpurves
#evilhack is one of the newest variants and has me hooked right now. You can
find it on the hardfought server. It’s harder though and better for anyone
who’s already managed to win the vanilla version of nethack (which only took
me about 12 years lol)

------
nyolfen
if you're homebound and enjoy exploring game systems, you could do worse than
diving into a few rl's

~~~
jim_and_derrick
So I am a gamer for sure, spent tons of time playing all the dark souls,
bloodborne, sekiro over the past 4 or 5 years. After souls i was left wanting,
a void in my game life so to speak. Monster Hunter World captured my attention
for a good while. Then i found roguelikes and specifically Darkest Dungeon.

I had seen people playing on twitch, it looked cool. Turn based, RPG,
permadeath, difficult. All up my alley. Jumped into it and got my butt whooped
for a while but then it clicked. And BOOM i was off, many months later and
hundreds of hours later i was done with Darkest Dungeon.

Since then, Slay the Spire baby. Wow that game owns hard. about 300 hours
here. It's a deck-building (card game) turn based rogue-like. Recommend it to
all!

~~~
eterm
Calling it a deck builder is misleading and I think puts off people who might
otherwise enjoy it.

Sure, the abilities are card-shaped and there are drawing mechanics, but it
doesn't really play like a deck-builder at all.

I think the main differentiator for me, and where I thin Slay the Spire sets
it apart from normal deck builders, is that the enemies you're fighting aren't
playing by the same rules. The enemies don't have cards, or decks or similar
abilities.

Because of this, the enemies can be really thematic and varied and have
interesting mechanics and don't need to be balanced around playing by the same
rules as the player.

As a consequence it doesn't feel like a deck builder to me, the abilities just
happen to be card-shaped.

Add in the relics which are one of the more important parts of the run, and
really the skills involved aren't at all like other deck building games.

But yes, huge recommendation from me too, definitely the best rogue-lite game
in years. (~450 hours played for me, and probably twice that watching it on
twich).

~~~
gambiting
I played it for about 5 hours and I just don't have any motivation to keep
going. The trickle of new cards is super slow and I don't really feel like
much depends on my skill at all. But I also have friends who rave about it, so
maybe it's an acquired taste thing.

~~~
chongli
It's a very challenging game that exercises different muscles than other
games, especially if you've never played a deckbuilder before. One of the
hardest things to get used to is the fact that skipping a card reward is often
the best play. The key insight is that every card taken decreases the
probability of drawing all of the other cards in your deck.

Another tricky aspect to the game is that any given card may be great in one
deck and terrible in another, to the point where taking it makes your deck
worse. Strong players (such as jorbs, whom you can find on twitch) tend to
lean very heavily on the card remove feature in order to get rid of bad cards.

There is definitely a luck component to the game but skilled players are
pushing that boundary every day. Winning streaks on ascension 20 (the hardest
difficulty level) are possible and always growing.

~~~
hnick
I'm nearing 500 hours on StS and I still have so much to learn. Approaching it
as a deckbuilder can definitely be a noob-trap - anyone who has played MTG or
similar is very tempted to build into archetypes instead of understanding that
you have to deal with the problems at hand with the solutions you are given,
because you can't force the game to give you what you want. Taking a "will be
good later" pick is nearly always a problem, often because it reduces your
chances of reaching "later".

Funnily enough a really thin deck can also be a problem. If you have 15 cards
and Nemesis adds 5 burns, you're in trouble without a way to handle that.
Instead of thin or fat, the best way to think of it IMO is consistency (draw
and exhaust help this).

I really like how each Act tests different strengths and exposes different
weaknesses. A20 is tough but rewarding.

~~~
eterm
I completely agree with this, although as new advice "thin your deck" is good
advice because new players don't remove strikes nearly enough, and the "too
thin" problems only really hurt when you're doing act 4 and on higher
ascensions.

On lower ascensions you get far fewer status cards added, and if you're a new
player you probably don't have act 4 unlocked.

~~~
hnick
Yes definitely. "Remove cards" and "you don't need to take a card every time"
are both good early tips.

There's definitely a lot of depth that you have to unlock over time. I
sometimes watch Jorbs on YouTube as background noise and he'll often think
over a single turn for 15 minutes or more. I don't have that patience.

------
ridiculous_fish
This post has so much love for roguelikes, what a joy!

I Carbonized [1] Angband to make it playable on OS X. Then I Cocoaized it a
few years later. What a rarefied game, that you can play it for years!

1:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_(API)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_\(API\))

------
allan_s
Funny I'm trying to make a rogue-like game with my son these last days. Anyone
has experienced using the C library `notcurses`, or some demo project ? (the
library seems to be made to on purpose break curses API compatibility for the
sake of sanity)

~~~
simonh
I don't know how keen you are on using C, but there's an excellent open
Roguelike library for Python, with a whole community round it. The subreddit
is pretty active..

[http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Complete_Roguelike...](http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Complete_Roguelike_Tutorial,_using_python3%2Blibtcod)

~~~
allan_s
thanks for the link I didn't know about this project. However here it's
specifically a project to learn C :) but your link is still full a useful
information (notably their dungeon generation algorithm )

------
jsilence
Enjoyed the article very much, but missed Caves of Qud.

~~~
moomin
Yeah, I haven’t played it myself but it’s unquestionably a significant entry
in the genre.

------
wmorse
Shout out to Lincoln-Sudbury RHS where Hack began...and JOVE! Can't imagine
that fantastic experiment happening again; PDP-11 running Unix given to a
cohort of teenagers to maintain. Thanks Brian!

------
kamikaze675
For a modern pixel roguelike, check out OneBit Adventure on mobile

~~~
toupeira
Also the Open Source Pixel Dungeon and its many mods.

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unbalancedevh
Happy to see Omega in the list. I enjoyed so many hours playing that in
college! Too bad the version I had was buggy and impossible to win.

------
cpeterso
No mention of NetHack?

~~~
autarch
Try Ctrl-F? It does mention NetHack quite a bit.

~~~
moomin
Or try Page 2..,

