
Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States - jaimebuelta
http://www.alternet.org/why-i-will-never-ever-go-back-united-states?paging=off
======
lingoberry
Something similar happened to me recently. I voluntarily left my job at a US
employer, planning to move back home (to Sweden). But first I wanted to spend
some time preparing for the move and waiting for my wife to wrap things up.
The rules say you have to leave the country the last day of work, so I left
for Canada to stay with a friend, and planned to come back on the visa waiver
program. I consulted with the company's immigration lawyers and they said this
shouldn't be a problem. The US border agents thought differently. After being
held and interrogated for 4 hours like a criminal, they concluded that I was
lying and they thought I would try to illegally immigrate to the US, because I
didn't have enough financial ties to my home country. I had a green card on
the way when I quit my job so why wouldn't I just stay if I wanted to
immigrate so badly? They didn't care about that or anything else I said. I was
sent back into Canada with most of my belongings still being in the US.
"Entering the US is a privilege, not a right" I was told. Once you get denied
entry it is very difficult to get in again, and you need a visa etc. I decided
it was just easier to fly home at that point.

I realize now that I was naive, and many of you would probably say it was my
own fault. I thought that if I did something that is not against the rules,
things would be fine. Afterwards I found out though that entry into the US is
completely the discretion of the border guards. Even if you are legally
following the rules, they can deny you on a whim. In this case, I believe they
thought I was taking advantage by just leaving the US for a few days and
coming back. Which is a valid concern I guess, but if that's so, why wouldn't
they put a time limit on how long you have to be away? I think part of my
naivety comes from my trusting upbringing in a rural part of a small country.

Either way, it was not the best end to my 5 years in the US, and I doubt I'll
be going back anytime soon. This experience just cemented once more that the
US is not a country I wish to live in permanently, and have my kids grow up
in.

~~~
vasilipupkin
So the logic goes something like this: something bad happened to me once in
country X. Therefore, I will not go back to country X. So, if something bad
happens to you in Sweden, say a policeman is rude to you, or something like
that, will you leave Sweden because of it ?

~~~
dferlemann
This is not a logical issue. It's an emotional one. So, it depends on the
person. Wouldn't you held anything against a country if that's country's
border control detained you, denied the services you paid for, denied the
properties you have in the country, treated you like a sub-human? Would you
try to enter that country again? Try, just try to be empathetic...

~~~
vasilipupkin
I agree with you and I am empathetic, but somehow 67 million international
tourists manage to enter the U.S. per year, according to this
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings)

so perhaps, my advice is, don't overreact.

~~~
nknighthb
Rather than directing your "advice" to the victims, direct it to the US
immigration officers.

~~~
vasilipupkin
There is no doubt that the U.S. immigration system is broken and needs fixing,
this is a complicated political issue that is currently being debated in
Congress. Conditional on this unfortunate reality, which we can't immediately
change, my advice is not to over-react.

~~~
nknighthb
Don't deflect blame onto the system, either. I will accept many excuses for
many job choices. I will not accept any excuses for being paid to do this kind
of evil. If their behavior were mandated by immigration law (and it's not),
they would still be 100% culpable.

------
cstross
Interestingly, in the developed world it seems to be the Anglophone countries
that have the shittiest attitude towards border control these days. The US is
notoriously user-hostile at the borders. The UK is doing its best to catch up
in a Mini-Me way with the USA's Dr Evil, and is actually on course to become
even _more_ hostile than the USA -- the only mitigating factor is that the
third degree is reserved for non-citizens, so far. Australia under Tony Abbot
runs concentration camps for victims of famine, civil war on Nauru:

[http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/07/25/manu-j25.html](http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/07/25/manu-j25.html)

And denying asylum to Hazara victims of taliban terrorism:

[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/22/asylum-
australi...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/22/asylum-australia-
hazara-pakistan-rudd)

And in the UK, Home Secretary Theresa May considers immigration control to be
more important than the lives of mentally ill people who have been tortured by
Boko Haram:

[http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/16/end-of-
life-p...](http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/16/end-of-life-plan-
hunger-striker)

~~~
thomasz
I would appreciate if you wouldn't cite the 'world socialist website -
Published by the International Committee of the Fourth International' as a
reputable source. Some of their articles are surprisingly good, but it's still
the publication of an obscure trotzkyist sect.

~~~
cstross
What's your problem with Trotskyite news sources?

I assume most folks here are smart enough to evaluate any given news site on
the basis of its accuracy and to differentiate between editorial bias and
factual incorrectness.

If you really can't bear to see news and opinions from sources you personally
disagree with, how are you ever going to test your opinions?

~~~
thomasz
Well, one problem is that publications like the wsws are not news in the
strict sense. They do not have the staff and the founding that's necessary to
engage in traditional reporting. What those publications are doing is to
interpret secondary sources. The article in question does little else than
showing us the authors reactions after watching [0]. Some people might find
this reaction of the "International Committee of the Fourth International"
interesting, but I guess it's safe to say that most are not. About most people
here being able to evaluate the accuracy of those sites: That's the problem
with posting links like that. People read it, look at the header and dismiss
the whole thing as completely blown out of proportions, which sadly isn't true
this time.

[0]
[http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/about/id/601700/n/manus...](http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/about/id/601700/n/manus-
whistleblower)

~~~
gress
How is that different from mainstream news outlets publishing articles sourced
from Reuters or AP?

~~~
aet
Reuters and AP are reputable and have reporters on the ground. AP has won 50+
Pulitzer prizes. See
[http://www.ap.org/company/pulitzers](http://www.ap.org/company/pulitzers).

~~~
gress
That doesn't address the point - many mainstream 'news' outlets work by
rewriting stories syndicated from Reuters and AP - not by having their own
reporters.

The comment I was responding to was attacking the wsws for not being 'news'
because it doesn't have it's own reporters.

It's perfectly reasonable to criticize it for having a political stance that
you don't credit, but I don't see a case for somehow categorizing it as 'not
news' when its practices are the same as many traditional news outlets, just
with a less mainstream perspective.

Note: I'm not supporting whatever wsws's stance might be - I'm just pointing
out that much of mainstream news is similar in how it operates.

~~~
aet
I actually have no problem with people citing the World Socialist Website.
That being said, the WSWS offers "Marxist analysis" of the news whereas
Reuters and AP, although they may offer analysis, focus on objective reporting
of the facts as opposed to analysis. Take a look at Reuters "trust principles"
on their website. One principle is: "That Thomson Reuters shall supply
unbiased and reliable news services to newspapers, news agencies, broadcasters
and other media subscribers and to businesses governments, institutions,
individuals and others with whom Thomson Reuters has or may have contracts."
Now, consider the mission of the WSWS: "The standpoint of this web site is one
of revolutionary opposition to the capitalist market system. Its aim is the
establishment of world socialism."

I think it is clear why AP and Reuters citations will be more widely accepted
than sources that are inclined to political bias and activism.

~~~
gress
You're still missing the point. I'm not comparing wsws to Reuters or the AP.
I'm comparing it to the news outlets that take reuters and AP reports as
sources which they then use to write their own articles.

~~~
aet
There is "news" and there is "analysis" \-- if you want to cite facts don't
cite analysis from a publication that has a clear and stated bias. Usually the
way AP and Reuters works is clients run what they write or "analyze" what they
write. Why cite analysis if you want facts? Not trying to be adversarial here,
just trying to understand what you are saying

~~~
gress
All publications have a strong bias. Isn't it better to cite from those that
state their bias clearly so that the reader is better able to interpret what
they are reading, than from those who mislead by pretending to be 'unbiased'?

~~~
aet
Short answer: no.

~~~
gress
Fair enough. You prefer the mainstream perspective to others. That is a common
point of view.

------
ma2rten
I hope I step on no ones toes here, but I am becoming more and more convinced
that USA is simply a less developed country than Western Europe and Canada.

\- At least until recently people would still go bankrupt because of medical
emergencies.

\- People have to save for lifetime to send their children to collage.

\- Politics is populistic.

\- The legal system is unjust in some areas (e.g. legal defense against bogus
charges can drive you into bankruptcy).

\- Immigration decisions are arbitrary and unpredictable.

\- Business has a large(r) influence in the government.

I am currently staying in Thailand and since I do so I have developed a better
understanding of what it means to be poor and what it means for country to be
developed. If you are poor, most of the times you basic needs are still
covered, but you are facing great unpredictability. A less developed country,
is thus a country that can not provide certainty to it's citizens. For
instance, I know of people here in Thailand who have gone from very rich
(having a chauffeur on staff) to poor (sawing in a factory). I also just saw a
documentary about a town in Mexico where many people life in constant fear to
get kidnapped or killed and reporting to the police would actually make them a
target. I could give endless examples. But I guess the point is, the US has
some characteristics that normally a developed economy does not have, but
which you would normally find in an emerging one.

EDIT: I am not saying that the US is an emerging economy. Most emerging
economies have much graver problems than the ones I listed above.

~~~
grecy
> _USA is simply a less developed country_

Of course it is.

In all of the below measures, the US is not at all comparable to Developed
countries, and sits squarely within Developing countries.

infant mortality, child poverty, child health and safety, life expectancy at
birth, healthy life expectancy, rate of obesity, disability-adjusted life
years, doctors per 1000 people, deaths from treatable conditions, rate of
mental health disorders, rate of drug abuse, rate of prescription drug use,
incarceration rate, rate of assaults, rate of homicides, income inequality,
wealth inequality, and economic mobility.

------
blisterpeanuts
U.S. Immigration agents are trained to look for certain traits in visitors:
nervousness, unusual or inconsistent answers to questions, history of visiting
certain countries. Any of these characteristics trigger an automatic
escalation in the interrogation process. This individual, albeit sounding
perfectly innocent, unfortunately triggered several hot buttons and the
hapless agents were too unimaginative, uninformed, and inflexible to give him
benefit of the doubt and let him pass.

99.9% of visitors do pass, because they are consistent with certain profiles--
business visitor, tourist visitor, never-been-anywhere-bad visitor. Even for
them, it's a rather unpleasant and rude experience that leaves a bad taste.

There's no question that our border control and immigration system needs an
overhaul. The stupidity and counter productivity of the agents who scrutinize
every incoming person (except for a few thousand Mexicans every day, but
that's another topic :) inspires little confidence that they would actually
recognize a terrorist, who would undoubtedly be carrying a false or sanitized
passport to avoid just such questions.

I'm sorry that happened to the submitter, and I hope he'll give us another try
some day. If his story gets out to the right person or persons, it might even
make a difference. I'm not convinced that Border control people will ever hear
about it if posted here, but he can contact them directly:
[https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/175/~/complaint...](https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/175/~/complaint-
of-rude-and-unprofessional-treatment)

By the way, this kind of profiling or over-profiling is not confined to U.S.
Border Control agents. I have seen identical behavior by Canadian agents, too.
All I had to do was mention I was going to take a class, and the guy made us
go into an interrogation room where he asked repeated, annoying questions to
try to entrap me into admitting I was in Canada to work or some such thing. I
was born in Canada as it clearly states on my US passport, and he asked me
where I was born, then looked at my companion with a sneer on his face as
though to show his disbelief. It was entirely unpleasant, but in the end we
passed. I learned not to say I was there to take a class. Just visiting. Hope
to spend lots of money. Ok, have a nice day!

~~~
DanBC
> I learned not to say I was there to take a class. Just visiting. Hope to
> spend lots of money. Ok, have a nice day!

Isn't lying to those people a really bad idea?

~~~
misterjangles
The border patrol could care less whether you are a broke student or a rich
tourist. They are not interested in how much you plan to spend.

So in that regard I would think you might as well tell them the truth simply
because if you get caught in a lie then you would cause grief for yourself of
no good reason. But if you are an excellent liar, then go for what're you
want!

Basically the border patrol are looking for three things: terrorist, drugs and
people who are coming to work illegally.

~~~
grecy
> _The border patrol could care less whether you are a broke student or a rich
> tourist._

Not true at all. I'm Australian and I regularly cross from Canada into the US
in my junker car full of snowboarding or camping gear. Every single time the
border guards want to see bank statements, proof of employment, etc. etc.

They're convinced I want to stay in the US and leech off the system (which is
nonsensical, when I could stay in Canada, which actually has a system)

~~~
jakejake
Well, if you come through looking like a ski bum with all of your worldly
possessions in your back seat then you shouldn't either try to tell the border
patrol that you're a wealthy tourist getting ready to kick the US economy into
high gear with your lavish spending!

That being said, I'm getting super psyched for ski season and have been
wanting to head to Canada this year. Recommend any good places within or near
Ontario?

~~~
grecy
> _Recommend any good places near Ontario?_

Unfortunately, Ontario is as flat as a pancake.

You really need to come out West, and you can't go wrong. All the resorts in
the West are getting dumped on right now, and everyone's loving it. BC is
where it's at for Canadian skiiing.

~~~
jakejake
Ah, well that is good to know - thank you! I have been thinking of heading to
Whistler but it's just quite a trek for me to get there (from Chicago). It
looks fantastic.

------
jballanc
I don't think it's ever been _easy_ to get into the US. A tour through Ellis
Island will tell you as much. The difference is that, in the past, the US
_needed_ its immigrants. They built its cities and its railroads and much of
the US's early industry. Later the US's immigrants were its main source of
scientific advancements...but the US's relationship with its immigrants has, I
think, always been strained.

The difference is that, today, there seems to have been a shift in attitude.
The US no longer thinks that it needs its immigrants. On top of that, the
world is a different place today. No longer is "the American dream" unique to
America. I know many people who've started businesses and found great success
elsewhere in the world.

It may be cliche to say, but only time will tell if the US's new attitude
toward immigrants is justified or will prove its undoing. In the mean time,
the world is a great big place with many wonderful things to see and people to
meet. I don't think you'll miss much if you never go back...

~~~
mcv
The country is made almost entirely out of immigrants. It's bizarre that
they're so closed off and scared of immigrants; they themselves are the
children of immigrants.

~~~
twoodfin
The US has a higher per capita net migration rate than every major European
country other than Italy:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migrat...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate)

More than three times that of France, for example.

~~~
carbocation
Add Luxembourg, Spain, and a few others to that list.

~~~
twoodfin
You're right of course. I should have included Spain. Luxembourg and Cyprus
don't have two million people between them.

~~~
carbocation
True. It is a nitpick on my part, regardless.

------
bsdetector
> When I'm supposed to watch my words, I tend to say the wrong ones.

No kidding. Volunteering that he was in Al Qaeda territory... to take pictures
of plants. Saying he's a nihilist. Suggesting that the levees in New Orleans
might break again while he's visiting. Having Jewish ancestry, but denying
being Jewish because not religious.

Also appears he was also traveling alone to many of these places, without any
business reason. Entering the US through Canada without having business in
Canada sounds like somebody trying to come in a back door, and being nervous
to boot.

Even from this one side of the story I'd say the border patrol did their job
just fine. I wouldn't have let him into the country in that story.

~~~
NateDad
I think you're wrong, and I'm sorry that people like you are the ones working
on the border. He was obviously travelling all around the world sight-seeing.
He had tons of proof of that. The border patrol were paranoid and idiotic.
Keeping random people out who "seem" like they might be dangerous is not going
to prevent any problems. It's just going to make the rest of the world hate us
more.

~~~
raverbashing
"He was obviously travelling all around the world sight-seeing"

This is not so obvious. This is one of the possible points of view, of course.

"He had tons of proof of that"

For example? I'm not sure other countries stamp a reason for entry like the
US, it's usually an entry stamp for anything and that's it.

I'm also sympathetic to the author, but he was _extremely_ naive. The border
control doesn't want to hear about nice food or nice wildlife or other blah
blah blah. Direct and cooled down answers will do. "On Vacation" is fine.

It's clear his answers (and passport stamps) rang a ton of bells.

~~~
spuz
Why don't border control want to hear the details of a person's travel
history? It would seem naive to me to try to hide details that could help you.

~~~
raverbashing
This deserves a better explaining.

Depending on the details, yes, it's better, like, "oh, I transited through
Malaysia when leaving Singapore"

But remember "anything you say can and will be used against you", so don't go
into details unless needed.

And to be honest, someone saying they traveled there because of the Botany,
they're either a plant expert or this can be felt as they're hiding something.

------
neeravkumar
I went for a interview with Facebook recently from India and had a really
different experience. The CBP guy was really gentle and just reminded me to
not work for Facebook in my days there and that's it, I was in USA. I just had
a small carry bag and no luggage so another one of them asked me why I have no
luggage and I told them that I am only there for 3 days. I agree US can be a
bit paranoid of these things but compared to people trying to enter USA I
think very few face the kind of hostility the author faced.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Agents use their read on a person to determine entry/denial. The OP mentioned
all the things he was asked and how he answered. He didn't/couldn't explain
his attitude, eye contact, how quickly he answered the questions, facial
expressions.

You've met people you took an instant dislike to - maybe its their hyper-
vigilant appearanch; maybe they involuntarily smile at everything you say
making you think they know something you don't know. Things like that can get
you turned away at the border.

------
w_t_payne
Beautiful country. Wonderful, creative, friendly people. Horrible, over-
complex, hostile bureaucracy.

I am pretty sure I'm not going back, either.

~~~
alan_cx
Problem there is that the US loudly and fundamentally claims to be a
democracy. If we are to accept that, then we have to accept that the
government embodies the will of its people. Or, seriously consider that the US
is genuinely no longer a real democracy.

It is a real shame, as you imply. American people have done incredible things
which contribute to the world in general in a positive way, and the country
its self is undoubtedly spectacular and beautiful. But the political
atmosphere, the general fear, and the resulting attitudes are a total bar to
me. These days I even worry about using US internet services since merely
doing so can put me in the sights of US authorities and their insane legal
system and laws. Worse still, my own government literally bend over for the US
government.

In short, a great people are strangling them selves.

~~~
Nrsolis
I don't think it's fair to paint all of this as somehow _originating_ with the
US. This country doesn't exist in a vacuum and it is shaped by the political
and economic forces that surround it. I think people forget that this nation
is constantly under some form of "attack" by groups (nation-state and
otherwise) who hope to destabilize it or mitigate the power it can wield.

I'm an American and I'm fiercely proud of this country. We screw up all the
time, but we've been able to manage a peaceful transition of power and somehow
manage to find our way in a difficult and challenging world.

I think it's lost on MANY people who are not citizens or residents that the
USA is HUGE, politically diverse, and nearly as varied in customs,
socioeconomics, and population as Europe. You can even stretch that to
language in some parts of the USA. Try and get around South Miami without at
least a smattering of Spanish language ability.

Our legal system has it's flaws. You can definitely find examples of
miscarriages of justice without too much trouble. Our bureaucracy is sometimes
incomprehensible. Our tax systems are strange and often counterproductive.

What is often missing is that all of these things are the result of a vigorous
political experiment in self-government. Below the federal government, there
are a whole slew of state, regional, city, town, village, and county
governments that have wide latitude to set their own laws and practices. In
certain counties in the USA, it's still illegal to buy alcohol. In other
counties, you can buy alcohol at a DRIVE THRU.

All of these variations are a result of people determining for themselves
which laws they'll live under. It's closer to say that the USA is filled with
many many cooperating democracies.

Just remember that in this country, you can still go from dirt-floor poor (not
an exaggeration) to billionaire in the span of a single lifetime.

We're far from perfect, but it's the recognition that we're _trying_ to
perfect this country that makes us unique and special.

~~~
DanBC
> and nearly as varied in customs, socioeconomics, and population as Europe.
> You can even stretch that to language in some parts of the USA. Try and get
> around South Miami without at least a smattering of Spanish language
> ability.

40 European languages:
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/european_languages/languages/...](http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/european_languages/languages/index.shtml)

(That's just for starters.)

In my rural county in England we have something like 120 different languages
spoken by people as their first language.

Some of those are from historic ties to England - such as some of the Indian
languages, with languages merging into English. (Pyjama, Bungalow, Juggernaut
etc etc).

> I think people forget that this nation is constantly under some form of
> "attack" by groups (nation-state and otherwise)

Really? How many mainland terrorist attacks have you had? Because Europe has
had a wide range of different separatist, leftist, anarchist, right-wing, etc
groups setting off bombs and killing people.

EDIT: _you can still go from dirt-floor poor (not an exaggeration) to
billionaire in the span of a single lifetime._

Yes, I can go and buy a lottery ticket and win millions with a 1 in 14 million
chance. The truth is that we could walk into a maternity ward in the US and
predict with reasonable accuracy the children who will be poor and on drugs or
in prison, and the children who will not be poor.

~~~
Nrsolis
I think you're deliberately misunderstanding me. And that's fine. I'm
definitely detecting a bunch of do-as-I-say type of sentiment.

But my mother fled a country (her _European_ home country and the country of
her birth) that tried to kill her and every one like her. SO...please pardon
me if I don't agree to entertain your Europe is oh-so-much-better than the US
diatribe. If one persons difficult experience can indict a whole country of
300m people, well...what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

~~~
andyjohnson0
_" pardon me if I don't agree to entertain your Europe is oh-so-much-better
than the US diatribe"_

Read the words again. None of DanBC's comments can be construed as a belief
that Europe (or anywhere else) is better than the USA. _If_ Europe has more
languages than the US, for example, then that doesn't make Europe _better_ in
any meaningful sense. What (it seems to me) he's saying is that the US is less
special and unique than you might think. Not less special to _you_ , but less
special on an objective, global scale.

From my point of view (British, European), belief in American Exceptionalism
has always seemed a little deluded. Many countries around the world have
democracy, wealth creation, etc. Many of them are trying to improve (though
maybe not "perfect") their society. On the whole, though, they just don't make
so much noise about it.

~~~
Nrsolis
Uh huh. I love the British people. Really. Lived half a year in London and
worked down in Mayfair back in the 90's.

But I'll admit that I found the fact that the UK has no Constitutionally
guaranteed right to free speech a shock. And I'd wager that any American would
find your system of ASBOs to be downright Orwellian.

Speaking of Orwell, you folks have had government surveillance on a scale
unheard of in the USA for decades now. How's that working out? Wasn't there a
near-simultaneous bus bombing in a heavily patrolled and videoed area?

My point is this: I find the constant US bashing that occurs on HN to be nasty
and misplaced. Don't like my country? Great. Don't come here. Don't use US
products. Don't use US services. Don't contribute financially to the US. I'm
totally cool with it.

The mere fact that we have a torrent of immigration applications only
demonstrates that despite the nasty border guards, the crazy laws, and the
weird politics, that we still remain one of the best places to live a life.
We're not perfect; we're just better in a lot of ways that matter to people.

------
sleepyhead
Had a similar problem when flying into NYC. With an Iranian visa stamp in my
passport. "Why would anyone go to Iran???" the lady at the border control
said. Then she wrote CTR on my immigration form (my imagination believes it
means 'Check for Terrorist Record'). Then she showed it to a guy with a
machine gun and he replied "Is he a fugitive or something?". Had to wait in a
room to talk with some guy. I showed him my passport which has a lot of
stamps. "Oh so you were backpacking?". Yup. "Ok you go can".

~~~
alexeisadeski3
>"Ok you go can"

Yoda is always the coolest security guard!

~~~
girvo
I think he'd be certainly More effective than the idiots running the show now.

------
davidcollantes
Do, really, immigration officers ask "What the hell where you doing X?"
"Aren't those countries Islamic?" There are parts on this writing that are
hard to believe, like they were written to sound like a novel, but I have
never been on a situation like the one described, not even close.

~~~
girvo
I've had UK and Australian Customs officers be similarly incredulous over
places I've visited. Honestly, those jobs don't seem to attract the "best and
brightest". Nor attract those who even have a passing familiarity with
geopolitics and geography. Sigh

~~~
mcv
Why would any border guard be incredulous over anyone visiting far away
places? You'd expect border guards to be used to meeting foreigners. And
there's lots of foreign parts in the world.

Why would anyone visit X? Because it's there. Because people live there.
Because there are things to see. What other reason do you need?

~~~
a3n
Why would border guards react this way? For some, a job that has arbitrary
power attracts people who want arbitrary power.

------
FreshCode
As a white foreigner who has considered travelling to the US for a holiday or
working in the Valley, these types of reports have a long-term chain reaction
on my willingness to start thinking about packing my bags for the States. I
wonder if the powers that be understand how far-reaching bad treatments of
foreign travellers can be. Or maybe I'm just one developer and my sentiment
has no effect in the long run. Do other developers feel the same?

~~~
CountHackulus
You're not alone, I feel the same. I'm becoming increasingly hesitant to go to
the US for a vacation, despite there being some places I really want to visit.
I've even turned down two very good job offers in the US.

My other developer friends seem to have similar, though not quite as advanced,
feelings about the US. When I mention not wanting to go to the US I get plenty
of "yeah, I don't blame you" responses.

------
tnuc
He tried to enter on the US Visa Waiver program. If the guard doesn't like you
then you don't get in.

Getting a visa in advance does make the guard do more paperwork if they refuse
entry.

From some US gov website; \--- To use the program, visitors must waive all
rights of review or appeal of decisions made by an immigration officer and all
rights to contest action in deportation except for asylum.

~~~
dnautics
moreover, he considers it a system with graft to be preferable to what he
endured in the US, which basically is an attitude of massive entitlement.
While I personally believe a person should generally have the right to
unconditionally enter any country, this guy doesn't (as evidenced by his
excitement and apparent delight at passing through border controls). So, what,
is 'getting the green light' some sort of personal validation? And getting
rejected such a huge personal affront that he will never go back to the US
because he knew he couldn't bribe one of the officers?

~~~
dublinclontarf
It is a very unpleasant experience being refused entry to a country, which has
considerable lost costs as a result. I had much a similar experience as OP and
can only agree.

~~~
dnautics
I'm not disputing that, but I would suggest a recalibration of the author's
other attitudes, then. The author revels in the pomp and circumstance of the
border crossing... Just what does he think those are there for?

~~~
jotm
Uh, being justly analyzed and NOT be treated as a terrorist and taken to
weird, scary and isolated places at the slightest misgiving would be nice.

I imagine he'll get over it, but will be cursing US CBP agents for the rest of
his life now...

------
lylejohnson
When I clicked through the link to this article, a window popped up asking me
to sign a petition to reinstate Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House. Given
her recent vote in favor of the Patriot Act, that was an interesting warm-up
act for the main article.

~~~
sigzero
Pelosi is insane.

~~~
coldcode
Generally insanity seems a requirement for anyone to be in Congress.

------
vixen99
As someone said, 'bin Laden has won'.

------
fenesiistvan
Coming from Romania, I also had to face some extra control in US airports + we
also need visa which is given also after an interview. Romania is a country
with zero terrorism.

I only wish US people to be treated in EU the same way they treat EU people in
US.

~~~
alexeisadeski3
Two wrongs make a right.

~~~
thaumasiotes
There are plenty of reciprocal visa policies; I understand that China charges
US visitors a fee equal to the fee the US charges Chinese, and Brazil's
horrific bureaucracy is also just trying to match what they feel Brazilians
have to go through if they want to enter the US.

The concept sort of makes sense; I can envision a situation where tourists are
appalled by visa procedures (especially if they're going to Brazil) and
pressure their politicians to lighten up. The major flaw there is that most
americans will never want a visa anyway, so it ends up being a largely
invisible protest on the part of the other countries.

~~~
alexeisadeski3
_> The major flaw there is that most americans will never want a visa anyway,
so it ends up being a largely invisible protest on the part of the other
countries._

Most Americans don't even have passports! [1]

By punishing the tiny fraction of Americans visiting Brazil or China, these
countries are simply shooting themselves in the foot.

It's a mostly invisible protest - and the only people witnessing said protest
are the ones who already like you.

[1] [http://andrewhy.de/percent-of-americans-with-
passports/](http://andrewhy.de/percent-of-americans-with-passports/)

------
bloodorange
Good choice. I hope enough people take their money elsewhere and eventually
some good might come out of it.

------
alkonaut
What is immigration control doing these days when very few people actually get
stamps in passports? And if I have stamps from Somalia and Libya in my
passport, why would I go to the US wihtout first getting a _new_ blank
passport? Are stamps in passport really that useful?

~~~
markild
That's my problem with these kinds of scenarios. An honest person with a
truthful passport will be punished, while someone with a blank passport might
not be looked at twice.

~~~
adrianb
Actually I traveled to Japan with a blank passport and was selected for
additional checks. Nothing aggressive or in any way impolite, but I would
guess a blank passport would be regarded suspicious in many instances.

------
aneeskA
It is in US that you will realize your name is your biggest enemy.

~~~
thaumasiotes
Under US law, any person may change their name to anything at any time for any
reason. So if your name is really your biggest enemy, the fix is not so hard.

~~~
dannnnnnny
"If you don't like us mistreating you then change your name". Good point.

~~~
thaumasiotes
Let me suggest that if, in fact, your _largest problem_ is something you can
make vanish immediately, just by wishing it to be so, then you don't have
many, or serious, problems.

Obviously, it's demeaning to change your name just because someone else
doesn't like it. If it were actually giving you trouble, it wouldn't be a hard
choice.

------
toolslive
My boss (he's European) has 2 passports: one to visit the Arab world, Russia,
... and another for the US. At one point, I went with him to the US and he
accidentally grabbed the wrong passport. Bingo! He was stopped and examined in
great detail every time: before entering the tax free zone, before boarding,
before entering the US.... It was surreal.

~~~
eloisant
France actually lets you have 2 password for "incompatible countries". That's
usually for Israel and Arab countries.

Maybe they will allow it for Arab countries and US too if this goes on.

~~~
duncans
Same in the UK. I had two passports for a while, one for travelling to UAE,
etc and another for Israel.

------
moondowner
This pretty much sums it up:

> "We are under the impression you have more ties with more countries we are
> not on friendly terms with than your own. We decided to bring you back to
> the Canadian border."

------
Jean-Philipe
I've submitted this over a month ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6553418](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6553418)

~~~
Dylan16807
Yes, you did.

But nobody saw it because it was killed.

Next time figure out why, maybe banned domain, and work around it or accept
that the story will be lost.

------
bayesianhorse
In the long run, there will be no border controls or limitations on
immigration in the world.

Why? Well, for one thing these controls hardly work at all. Look at the
population of illegal immigrants in the US to see how a long fence with
vicious patrols and vigorous immigration enforcement still doesn't stop the
immigration.

Secondly border and immigration controls violate human rights, without due
justification. And no, "too much immigrants are inconvenient" is no proper
justification for hunting, arresting, detaining and deporting actual human
beings.

Thirdly cross-border trade and immigration is too valuable for both the poorer
and the richer countries.

------
misterjangles
The other reason he will never, ever go back to the US is because he's likely
on a watch list now and will be denied any attempt to enter.

It's a shame that happened. The traveler has had an unfortunate interest in
traveling to multiple countries with which the US has hostile relationships.
And then entered the US in a slightly unconventional way by train via Canada.
I think that's a stupid reason to deny entry because an actual "terrorist"
would surely have fake documents anyway.

Perhaps the moral if the story is to get a replacement passport without the
stamps if you have travelled a lot and take a direct flight.

------
davegardner
Back in the late 90's the US was fairly high on my list of travel
destinations. At the time I didn't have the finances to visit.

Because of stories like this, it's slipping so low on my list that I'll likely
never get there.

~~~
girvo
I've been, twice. I'm not going back either :(

------
laichzeit0
Yeah this looks like the typical American knee-jerk overreaction to everything
these days. It reminded me of the story posted on HN a while back about the
guy who got 3 enemas and more asshole searches after getting pulled over for
skipping a stop sign and clinching his ass cheeks a bit funny on the car seat
while the officer was speaking to him.

What the fuck guys, have the terrorists won? Are you really so shit scared to
live normal lives with a slight risk that bad things might go wrong now and
then, that you might miss a few bombs, that a few people might die?

~~~
acuozzo
> What the fuck guys, have the terrorists won? Are you really so shit scared
> to live normal lives with a slight risk that bad things might go wrong now
> and then, that you might miss a few bombs, that a few people might die?

Most US citizens (in the north-east, at least) don't even _think_ about
terrorism post-9/11.

Our representatives are making these kinds of decisions for (most of) us and
we're just along for the ride.

------
auggierose
I remember when I entered the US for the first time in 1999 through the JFK
New York airport on my way to San Francisco. I would be studying there, but
had all documentation for that, including some necessary documentation for
entering the country, in my suitcase. Which was already in the US, while I
approached the airport border control. A friendly border control woman walked
with me to my suitcase, let me obtain my documentation, and then let me into
the country.

Could that still happen today? I sincerely doubt it, I would just be sent back
straight away.

What a shame.

------
blaco
I wonder what other countries have this "non-friendly countries" policy, it
could be good to know.

~~~
walshemj
Isreal / Arab country's and Cyprus are some that come to mind in the middle
east you just get a second passport if you need to go to both

------
joshuaheard
Sounds like the U.S. doesn't want him back.

I've traveled to over 30 countries and the U.S. does not have a monopoly on
rude bureaucratic custom officials.

My worst story is probably in Germany where the border officer would not let
me take the used car I had purchased in Germany across the border because the
chain of title in my registration was out of order. He ended up calling all
the previous owners in the title to determine the proper chain of title before
he would let me leave the country with it.

~~~
ronaldx
Is that your worst story? I read it like this:

Border officer didn't want you to take a car with a wrong/likely-illegal
registration across the border - instead took some time and effort to clarify
the details and then allowed you to continue.

In my mind that officer was doing their job well, and acted rather generously
in your favour.

~~~
joshuaheard
The registration and title were in my name because title had cleared the
German DMV. He basically didn't believe his own DMV and started calling
previous owners in the middle of the night.

~~~
ronaldx
It's also difficult to claim that this reflects the current situation in
Germany.

As best I can tell, Germany hasn't had any road border controls since 2007
(when Czech Rep & Poland implemented Schengen).

~~~
joshuaheard
True. This was before the formation of the European Union.

------
xacaxulu
I'm a US Citizen, currently living abroad. I dread going through CBP when I
have to come back through the Orwellian gauntlet. It's as if anyone who wants
to travel outside of the US is unpatriotic. I couldn't believe how nice and
professional Mexican, Belizean and Guatemalan customs agents have treated me,
especially considering the disdain and contempt a seemingly large proportion
of US border officials hold for members of those same countries.

~~~
abalashov
I am a naturalised citizen living abroad and feel exactly the same way on my
periodic return visits.

------
ilaksh
The border interrogations and searches are not providing any substantive
security benefit. It is amazing to me that we permit this to continue.

The terrorism myth used to justify hostile wars for resources and territorial
control has also been very useful in removing the ordinary rights of citizens
at the borders. We should not be surprised if this is extended to the interior
of the countries.

------
CalRobert
I don't want to go back, and I'm from there.

5 years to go for citizenship...

~~~
hartator
5 years to go for citizenship to which country?

Do you mind on telling us why (the upsides, the downsides...)? Thank you! :)

------
ankushnarula
This is disgusting. But then the more I think about I wonder if I was a CBP
officer how would I behave if I didn't want to be the officer who allowed a
terrorist into the US who manages to succeed with some plot. Far fetched
perhaps, but I think that mentality has created a culture in CBP.

With that said, I think there's a larger culture of militant xenophobia
running rampant in federal, state, and local policing. It's very unnerving -
but I guess that's the whole point right? Keep everyone unnerved and therefore
divided and under control. On one side you have the people who are afraid of
those who are doing the policing and on the other side you have the people
afraid of foreigners (or people who "look" like foreigners).

~~~
busterarm
Some of the people who join CBP tend to be a bit xenophobic to begin with.

One of the most bigoted people I've ever met got a job with the CBP after a
very brief and unsuccessful stint in the Army where he'd publicly announced to
everyone that he was going to Afghanistan to 'kill towelheads'.

------
blei
Anyone have statistics for admittance/denials for different categories of
travelers?

I keep seeing these anecdotes get lots of attention on Hacker News, and all
the comments just respond with more horror story anecdotes. But I worry there
might be an echo chamber effect, where people who like to comment on articles
of this topic are also the people who are already accustomed to, or feel
confirmation bias satisfaction at, hearing about these kinds of horror
anecdotes.

It's definitely a terrible problem; I'm just wondering if Hacker News
commenters are overstating the prevalence of the problem.

------
userulluipeste
"I'm not scared. But it's kind of exciting. It's like I'm in a movie. You're
just doing your job. I get that."

Like in movies - yeah, "The Departed" police interview scenes comes to my
mind. Stamp visas to some other foreign countries? This one was the hallmarks
of visa policy in Gaddafi's Libya - the no Israeli ties tolerated (not even
touristic visas). Or a raincoat? Really? Speaking about the human rights, how
come this kind of behavior is still warranted?

------
unlimit
I don't think people from third world will think the same way. Even with all
the issues United States is still a very coveted country to immigrate to from
say India.

------
peterwwillis
As a life-long citizen of the US and a sometimes traveler of the world, I
would compare the United States to a theme park in China. You can certainly
have fun if you tow the line and pretend that there's nothing better outside
the gates. Argue with the concession stand about choice and you might just get
brought to a back room with no windows. Bring in food from outside and it's a
3 year jail term. But the rides are nice...

------
hackaflocka
Well -- the chickens have come to roost. Terrorism of the 9/11 sort was the
result of "faux-colonial faux-terrorism" that certain countries in the west
had inflicted on the rest of the world for a long time.

And this sort of thing is happening because they can't just do these things to
brown-skinned people, once in a while they have to do these things to white-
skinned people. Faux-parity, you know.

Yummy -- tasty tasty faux-chicken.

------
infocollector
I'm curious about a few things from this writeup:

1\. Who gave this 250+ points?? Is there a way to decrease points?

2\. How did this dude get his money to roam around?

In this case, the US Immigration Officers did their job right it seems. They
do not have enough resources to check what this dude was doing in Yemen,
Dubai, Sri Lanka, ... - better safe than sorry. Was he writing from Pakistan
and Palestine as well, that he forgot to mention?

------
yaix
> In the Philippines I had to bribe someone in order to get my visa extended
> for a few days.

No you don't! I have been asked for "visa extention bribes" in many countries.
Do not pay them. Cite the countries law and that you follow it. Bribes kill.
"Every bribe you pay helps to kill a child." Just don't!

What I learned from the story: If I ever go on a US trip, I get a fresh
passport first.

------
coldshot
Another european citizen getting to learn the realities of the world. As many
others mentioned he has no idea about what's going on in EU for 'others'. That
attitude is almost the same everywhere in the world, only enemies, minorities
and passports need to be watched change.

------
bartkappenburg
And we know that profiling in this way doesn't work:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/03/science/03screening.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/03/science/03screening.html)

------
Fuxy
Apparently traveling in a lot of countries is grounds for suspicion in the US.

Well if you have multiple citizenship you can always just choose which
passport you're going to use so how useful is that really?

~~~
Jacqued
I know I do, but that's not a solution for everyone.

Even if you don't have multiple citizenship, it should probably be standard
practice to get a fresh, stamp-less passport if you're planning on travelling
to the US or any such hostile country.

~~~
bobdvb
I am due for a new passport soon, which is a shame because I will loose a few
interesting stamps. But it is probably a good thing as my travel seems to be
gravitating towards the US soon. I have avoided the US for >10 years now, but
work might bring me there again for some visits next year.

------
toadi
Well avoid the questioning where you have been by requesting a new travel
passport? It's clean so no questions asked?

------
monksy
Is this a repost? I could have sworn I've seen this before. I'm not sure if it
was on HN or r/truereddit.

~~~
surge
It was on truereddit on the guys blog: [http://dasmag.nl/why-i-will-never-
return-to-the-usa/](http://dasmag.nl/why-i-will-never-return-to-the-usa/)

His crack about a major tragedy (levees breaking) probably is what did him in.

------
tobeportable
This website has disabled scrolling and zooming and all keyboard shortcuts in
chrome. This UX ...Real ...

------
caiob
This is disgusting. And what baffles me is that Americans won't do anything to
change that.

------
__matt
lol he mentioned "al Qaeda", why didn't he just yell "I'm going to blow this
train up" Europeans are too rational to cope with border patrol/tsa.

------
dlsx
But he doesn't have a choice. The USA will not let him in regardless, so
saying he won't ever return is a rather moot point. If he was let in to the
country and then decided this it would have a much different perspective. He
is likely not pleased that he can't get back in he states and thus it is more
than likely the OP is not telling the whole truth.

------
yashodhan
This is sad. Perhaps maybe fly in next time?

~~~
rheide
Maybe fix your country next time?

~~~
techsupporter
I honestly don't see what is broken here. No one has the unquestioned right to
enter any country except one where they hold citizenship. This post documents
one person who was turned away for what he felt was an unreasonable position
but that's still up to the United States to decide. It may shock people on
Hacker News to learn this, but many other countries turn people away for
"frivolous" reasons or no reason at all. For instance, Canada:

[http://www.metalinsider.net/touring/warbeast-denied-entry-
to...](http://www.metalinsider.net/touring/warbeast-denied-entry-to-canada-
but-dont-ask-why)

[http://www.thetelegram.com/News/Local/2013-06-21/article-328...](http://www.thetelegram.com/News/Local/2013-06-21/article-3285421/Delegates-
denied-entry-to-Canada-for-St.-Johns-conference/1)

[http://news-briefs.ew.com/2013/11/16/russell-brand-south-afr...](http://news-
briefs.ew.com/2013/11/16/russell-brand-south-africa/?hpt=hp_t5)

(well, almost) [http://correresmidestino.com/almost-denied-entry-to-
canada/](http://correresmidestino.com/almost-denied-entry-to-canada/)

~~~
Mithaldu
Ever heard about the Schengen Area?
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area)

~~~
vixen99
It's not really a counter example. The Eurocrats would love the peoples of
Europe to be citizens of a united states of Europe (polls suggest people are
not so inclined). The Schengen agreement is a logical step towards that goal
and is undeniably helpful for travellers. Countries in the continent of
America don't appear to have any such ambition.

~~~
raverbashing
Except the Schengen area includes countries not on the EU (and exclude
countries part of the EU - for a reason)

