
WorkFlowy (YC S10) launches a better way to organize your brain - jessep
http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/04/workflow/
======
wheels
Annoyance from the homepage: I don't want to have to watch a video to figure
out what you do. Watching a video for me is one step of engagement after I've
figured out if I have some basic interest. If I can't establish that
immediately, I'll just close the window. Videos can be great for more in depth
info, but why not use the space taken up by "A better way to think" (which
says nothing) to give a one-line description of what it the product _is_?

~~~
middlegeek
I would respectfully say just the opposite. In a 45 second video, they showed
the product, I saw someone using it who already knew how to use it and I had
no more commitment than clicking "play".

In my book, they got it _exactly_ right.

~~~
detst
A video is great but many people aren't going to bother with it if they aren't
otherwise interested.

"A Better Way to Think" means nothing to me and is the only other thing to
grab my interest. I would have clicked away in about 2 seconds if I didn't
come across this on HN.

EDIT: Why not something like "Your Brain. Organized. Everywhere." for a
headline? It doesn't seem to be "a better way to think" but a way to "organize
things the way you naturally think" [from the video].

I can definitely see myself using this and almost passed it up.

~~~
jessep
Oh, I like these suggestions. Yeah, tagline should change. Perhaps we'll use
"Organize things the way you naturally think". Need to put more thought into
this.

------
Maro
Is this a good space to compete in? There are zillions of sites like it, it's
really easy to duplicate, and hard to make money off of? Nevertheless, best of
luck to you.

~~~
naner
I don't mean to be cynical but honestly to me this space is an analog to self-
help books. Todo/notes/productivity apps probably can hook people for a few
weeks but beyond that I imagine most people won't put forth the effort to keep
up with it.

~~~
miketuritzin
Point taken, but a big aim of ours (I'm one of the founders) is to help people
do what they're already doing in a better way. I was creating tons of Google
Docs full of lists before I started using WorkFlowy. They were pretty
unmanageable, but they were the best thing I had at the time.

~~~
naner
I hope you guys do well, it just seems like a risky area to get into.

------
chrisgoodrich
Woah. I get a very 37signals-esque feel from this. You know, the feeling when
you've found something really awesome that could really help out your daily
organization? I used to use backpack from 37signals, but ended up favoring my
Moleskine.

I signed-up for WorkFlowy and created 5 lists and I think I could use this on
a daily basis. Simple and to the point. Help me remember the random things
that go through my head while keeping me on track to get things done.

That being said, there are a few things I'd love to see:

(a) Search (b) Linking between items. I keep daily lists that may have sub-
tasks of items that are in a larger project list. I'd like to be able to link
the things in my daily list back to the project. Even if this is a full URL, I
just don't want to be clicking around to find it. (c) Mobile/iPad support
(haven't tested to see if this already works or not)

Great job guys.

~~~
davidw
> I used to use backpack from 37signals, but ended up favoring my Moleskine.

Would you be interested in doing a video testimonial for 73primenumbers.com ?
:-)

~~~
revorad
Did you make that site? Thank you, thank you, thank you.

For anyone who hasn't seen it yet, please do yourself a favour -
<http://73primenumbers.com>.

~~~
davidw
Thanks, glad you liked it; I had fun doing it.

------
jackowayed
From the "How to Use WorkFlowy" box that you see after signing up:

> _Type like you would in a text editor._

What percent of the population is comfortable with the term "text editor"?

~~~
eof
Of the people who would be using a tool like this? I'd say ~100

~~~
jackowayed
Really? I know plenty of people who use Evernote that do all of their text
editing in Word or Google Docs.

~~~
eof
Still.. which part wouldn't they understand or be confused by: 'text' or
'editor'?

------
moshezadka
Two notes I did not see below:

* For a site that launched a few days after FireSheep was announced, and that wants me to put in (somewhat) private data, I think that at least having an SSL option is necessary.

* Re: demo page: Is it really that hard to save it tied to a temporary cookie, and copy all the data on the backend to a permanent account if a user signs up? I would not even call that a "demo page": just have the editor widget be right there on the front page, letting the user play with it (keeping the video to the side).

I understand the value of launching quickly, but adding a Gmail auth/Facebook
connect option, adding an SSL option and adding better "try-before-I-have-to-
give-you-my-email-address" are all things I would consider a must.

[Edit: fixed formatting.]

------
MrNibbles
Well, i love it. Its a great way to organise my endless daily mind jottings.

I have made it into a quick little desktop (fluid) app with some minor css
changes to help it blend in a bit

Heres a screenshot: <http://www.webnibbles.co.uk/dropbox/workFlowyFluid.jpg>

If you are interested in running this standalone (OS-X) you can get the app
here: <http://www.webnibbles.co.uk/dropbox/WorkFlowy.app.zip>

Or you can get fluid from here and give it a go yourself:
<http://fluidapp.com/>

~~~
miketuritzin
Awesome, man! We'll have to get on that ourselves.

------
k7d
So here's something very similar i launched recently <http://www.knowcase.com>
(works on ipad & mobile too)

~~~
ABrandt
Interesting side note:

I watched the workflowy video in the article, thought "meh". Then I came back
to HN to read the comments, and clicked on your app. Tried the demo, got
intimidated by the interface and left. Came back to HN to read more comments,
decided to check out workflowy's site afterall. A simple sign up, validation
from Matt Cutts, and the fact that its a YC company persuaded me to give it a
try.

tl;dr - Validation _does_ matter. Convince the people who your target market
trusts, and the rest will follow.

~~~
miketuritzin
Interesting. As one of the founders, it's good to hear the psychology at work
here.

------
stevederico
Looking forward to this. I love the parent-child relationship for organizing
my thoughts. It is feels very natural to me.

clickable sign-up: <http://www.workflowy.com>

------
ph0rque
When marking a task as completed, all the subtasks should automatically be
completed, too.

~~~
dminor
And conversely, when all the subtasks are completed the parent should
automatically be completed.

~~~
eof
Maybe as an option. But I made two lists right off the back, Work, and Life. I
put two things in Life and then checked them off..

------
Murkin
I am sorry to be negative, but can someone explain to me why this is a YC
startup and not a weekend-project ?

------
andr
Why not label it as an outliner? It would help more technically-oriented
people to quickly understand what it is.

Also, Dave Winer would be all over it. :)

~~~
jessep
Most people don't know what an outliner is, so that's why we decided not to
use it. We're really approaching it as text editor designed for lists, even
though that ends up being an outliner.

For tech people, you're definitely right. For most people, this really is a
new category of thing.

------
eof
Tasks need to have dates I think for this thing to be both a brain organizer
and a productivity tool, which I think is ultimately what it is going to have
to be to be successful (and it _is_ names workflowy).

I have used mindmaps before, which is basically the same idea with a different
interface.

I'd like each node to have a "due by" or "do on" date, and maybe a simple
color coding.. just a way to arbitrary label things into one of a few sets for
later polling.

This is young so no one has built up huge maps of their brains and their
lives, or imagine an organization using this.. it could get huge and
cumbersome. To solve this you'd need to be able to pull all the 'purple' items
from deep in the tree into it's own list, or get a list of everything that I
said needed to be done today, or by friday.

In any case, I think this is a great tool, and I have been looking for a
seamless way of keeping track of things, and this just might fit the bill. I
will be giving it a try.

Curious how this is going to be monetized as well, I hope I don't get addicted
and end up with another cellphone bill.

~~~
jessep
Yeah, lots of this is right on. Dates: need to do it. Taggin/Labeling and
filtering is super key and one of the next big things we're going to work on.

Regarding monetization, we're thinking that we're going to have a premium
option above a certain number of lists/items. We're, of course, going to
grandfather in early users.

~~~
chrisgoodrich
I hope that you don't sacrifice the simplicity here. Instead of actual fields
or clickable options for setting tags and due dates, let me type them in and
then display them as needed.

something like: look into alternatives for GTD due 12/1/2010 [work, gtd]

~~~
eof
Taking syntax like that is definitely cool. I was thinking though of just
being able to hover a node and get teensy widgets

~~~
chrisgoodrich
Maybe both? I like the idea of being able to quickly type out what I need.

~~~
jessep
Yeah, everything's going to be text editable. The twitter #hashtag model is
what we'll probably follow. So if you type, say, "!" it might pull up a date
picker and then when you choose the date it'll insert it in the text like
!2010-10-24 (and record the metadata invisibly for sorting/filtering and
whatnot).

------
Maro
Add a way to try it out without signing up!

~~~
zumda
Yes, this! Add some example lists to it, and reset it every hour or so. This
way when they sign up, they don't just see an empty list, but already have
ideas what to do with it.

Maybe even add some example lists for new registered user (you could use that
to add a little user guide).

------
Encosia
Ctrl-Backspace isn't a good shortcut for deleting items. That's the shortcut
to delete a word to the left in Windows.

------
mshafrir
Looks really cool.

Small nit: In Chrome, hit the backspace a few too many times and it fired the
"Back" action of the browser. Might want to override this default when in text
editing mode.

------
hartror
This looks fantastic, with some obvious advantages over other todo list apps.

A couple of obvious todos I would like to see done before I can use it.
Firstly a search throwing up a list of notes that match (browser text search
is okay for this but doesn't give me a nice easy to read list).

Secondly and this one is more important, the ability to cross reference lists,
for example what do I need to do today for all my projects? Search could
provide a stopgap using hash tags ala twitter for tagging notes or marking
dates in the interim but a formal method would probably be more convenient
especially for mainstream users.

~~~
miketuritzin
Cool, glad you like it. We're definitely adding search and tagging in the near
future. We want tagging to be a first order tool for navigation just as
descending the hierarchy is now.

------
mrbogle
This is awesome. I have something similar as a project on the back burner
because I haven't been able to find anything really simple and generic like
this. I was trying to solve simple creation of lists and the zoom in feature
is exactly what I was looking for. Nice work.

Now for a tiny feature request. I like to make sections with ample white space
between them. When I have an empty bullet, can you hide the bullet? Similar to
what gmail tasks does.

And I want simple formatting. Textile? Markdown? Is this supported already? I
just want to make junk bold and italicized. :)

------
yatsyk
Impressed with beautiful minimalistic design!

I think this service could be very useful for me when transparent
synchronization with mobile be ready. Evernote have not created correct two
way mobile synchronization yet.

------
zcid
Very nice interface and website. It's sleek and uncluttered. Overall, pretty
enjoyable to use.

-You need SSL. Badly.

-You need to post a privacy policy. I need some something to reassure me before I can store private information under your control.

-Public demo? A lot of people will lose interest if they have to set up an account before even coming into contact with the software. Knowcase (<http://www.knowcase.com/>) does a good job of providing a demo without forcing you to jump through hoops.

------
jules
As is this is not very useful to me, because often dates are associated with
the things you do. I want to know what has to be completed tomorrow/next
week/etc. A calendar or timeline view _would_ make this very useful. I think
you might be able to do a neat calendar view that also shows the nesting, so
I'd be able to see:

    
    
        School: homework X, homework Y, test Z
        Project A: email joe about X, implement Y
        Project B: ...
    

In a calendar/timeline view.

~~~
mchunkat
Would like a calendar/timeline view and a search function.

------
greendestiny
I've been using <http://bulletxt.zetabee.com> it appears to be the same thing,
but many times nicer and more polished.

~~~
chime
Thanks for the props. It's nowhere close to being finished either. I still
have tons of half-implemented features.

------
andrewcamel
I really like the app and I'm definitely going to be using it for many things
from this point on, but I would use it even more if you had Collaboration. I
need to be able to collaboratively edit a section of my list with my coding
team. We should be able to move this section of the list where ever each of us
wants it in our individual accounts.

Would that be too difficult to implement at this point?

~~~
kubaf
agree. colaboration feature is a must. for me it could easily replace
piratepad if it have implemented colaboration.

~~~
miketuritzin
Sweet. Collaboration is coming soon.

------
terrym
Interesting product idea - could use a bit more explanation on the homepage
(maybe a paragraph of explanatory text?), the video was nice but a bit hard to
take in (fast paced, talking over music, short).

Your other video "How to use workflowy" was much easier to understand and
actually convinced me to sign up:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPMVtkNrquU&fmt=18](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPMVtkNrquU&fmt=18)
. Specifically, the part after 1:30 where you show the length of a list when
it's expanded vs. when it's organized by workflowy. I usually end up with huge
word documents that look like scarily similar to the sprawling, expanded list,
and when you showed how the tool cuts down on that and only shows the level of
detail you need, that hit home big time and made me want to try it.

Best of luck!

~~~
jessep
Thanks, thats really useful feedback. Nice to know the main thing that
persuaded you. I wonder if we could capture that in images/text somehow too,
for the people who keep saying they don't want to watch a video.

~~~
terrym
No problem, glad it was helpful! The best thing for people who don't want to
watch a video might be just some screenshots of the different states of the
list: compacted, expanded 1-2 levels, and fully expanded with accompanying
text explaining how the product works.

Another quick suggestion: "A better way to think" doesn't really convey what
your product does, maybe something like: "Map your workflow to your brain, not
your brain to your workflow." would work better? Something more descriptive
might help people tell more quickly whether or not the product is relevant to
them and worth checking out.

~~~
jessep
Yeah, we've realized that our tagline sucks. We're going to change it to
"Organize your brain." What do you think?

~~~
terrym
That works. I think the key is having a solid introductory paragraph that
explains what the product is, the tagline can only say so much.

------
aero142
I really like the product. I currently use Things for my GTD, so it would be
competing with that. I would have to have an iPhone app version to make the
switch. The UI also lends itself to a useful project management tool, which I
always thought was a space in need of some simplification.

~~~
jessep
Mobile support is high on our list.

Yeah, we think it'll be pretty powerful for project management once it has
collaboration, tagging and search.

------
zumda
I love the simplicity of the application! Easy to use and no complicated
system to learn (which isn't the case for all the GTD apps out there...)

But there are two things I would love to see: Add an easy way to append things
to the Goals list. So I could add parts of a project to my week list, and when
I break it down into single tasks I could easily add the subtasks to the today
list. They would have to be linked to the original item of course.

And what would also be nice (but may be outside the scope) is a way to ad
recurring tasks (for example refactoring every Friday), so I don't have to
remember to add it all the time to the today list.

------
afterburner
This belongs on a smart phone.

Until it is... anybody know of a good outlining app on the iPhone? All I need
is "infinitely" nestable items.

EDIT: OK, Outliner seems pretty good. As far as workflowy goes, for desktop
use I think I'd prefer a standalone app.

------
tealtan
It's a good idea. Similar to Taskpaper
(<http://www.hogbaysoftware.com/products/taskpaper>), I wish you guys the best
of luck.

------
bjtitus
I'd like more formatting options. (Bold, size, etc.)

Also would like to be able to embed media somehow (videos, images, etc.)

I'd like to use something like this as a good outlining tool.

The expanding of bullets into new pages is great.

~~~
zacharycohn
I worry that embedding media would just overcomplicate it. There's definitely
a point where it's simple enough and adding more features will only detract
from the overall effectiveness.

~~~
jessep
We had embeddable media implemented but took it out because the UI wasn't
right yet. We need to figure that out, but I think it is definitely important
enough to work on.

------
dmix
Excellent choice of music for the video.

It stood out from the usual ones by being high energy and compelling. I also
like how the clapping was kept in at the end.

~~~
jessep
Thank you. We thought it was cute.

------
dpatru
This is orgmode without emacs and on the web. Given the usefulness and
popularity of orgmode, I wouldn't be surprised if this really takes off.

------
durga
Awesome. WorkFly almost mimics how I currently organize my things to do.
Eschewing fancy stuff, I simply make a long indented list and cross things out
as they get done. Having that capability in a browser based application is
neat.

Now I do like long lists, but could I have the capability to make multiple
lists? I don't want to put my personal to-do's on the same list as my work to-
do.

~~~
jessep
Hi durga. Your last question is interesting, because in WorkFlowy there's not
really a difference between a list and an item in a list, because both can
have infinite items underneath them. It does seem to confuse people, though,
so we're going to make the icons at the top level into "document" icons and
see if that helps clear things up. Might slightly change the behavior too,
unclear.

------
lostbit
Exporting would be nice so that one can save the list 'snapshot'. This way we
could use it to report our tasks/projects every week. My boss is using Word.
It's just not efficient...

Tables are very common on my lists. Maybe you can add support for simple
tables to Workflowy too.

Another suggestion: several users accessing the same Workflowy.

------
glenw
Their website probably got a lot hits from the curious today, since it was a
hacker news front page story. I wonder how many potential users, like me, that
they lost forever because because of the register-before-we-explain anti-
pattern. And no, I will not unblock a video until after I am interested.

~~~
jessep
:) Yeah, we've heard that feedback loud and clear. We're going to put up some
more descriptive text as soon as traffic dies down. We don't want to mess
something up while people are still signing up like crazy.

We're getting amazing conversion rates, though, so most people don't have a
problem watching the video.

------
detcader
When typing/editing an item, ctrl-left/ctrl-right doesn't jump the cursor to
the front of the closest word.

------
jules
What's the advantage over Google tasks?

~~~
dminor
It's an outline program (with a great UI), rather than a simple task list. The
video makes it pretty clear.

------
da5e
I like it. It has the simplicity of mytextfile.com which I've been using since
I saw it here on HN months ago. I was hoping I could also access it on iPad
with Safari but it says no "smart phones" yet. Signing up and in with my
Google account would be great.

------
w1ntermute
Any chance of getting a Vim emulation option? That might be enough to get me
regularly using it.

------
makeramen
I love it.

For those that don't want to "Sign Up" here's what happens when you do:
NOTHING

I never got ANYTHING in my inbox. They just use your email for a username,
which I very much appreciate over any other method (creating usernames you
forget, Facebook connect, OpenID, etc, etc)

------
amitvjtimub
It asks only for email while signing up but asks to loin with either
Email/Username.

Interface looks good but even average geek will not use it for more than few
days let alone average user. How do you make sure users keep using it for long
time?

------
jacoblyles
The name grates on my nerves (although I am aware of the URL shortage
problem). But the product looks cool. I'm going to use it for a few days and
see how I like it. It looks near perfect.

~~~
jessep
Thanks, hope you like it :)

~~~
jacoblyles
Also, I have no idea how this is a business, but I've resigned myself to being
thoroughly confused by Valley business sense. I imagine you will be no more or
less economically successful than simplenote.

~~~
jessep
As a business, I think we'll follow the lead of dropbox and evernote. Some
variety of:

1) You get a lot for free. 2) If you need even more (or just love us) you can
pay us (My hunch is we'll also have an easy to find "I need a lot of space but
am poor." option) 3) You can always earn more space by promoting us

Also, once we have collaboration this could be a pretty powerful enterprise
tool, and businesses pay lots of money for software.

------
guelo
My first feature request would be due dates and email reminders.

------
DannyCooper
I'm wondering how much you can eventually charge for a service like this,
especially considering it would be fairly easy for competitors to replicate
and undercut you.

------
dryicerx
org-mode Inspired I see. In a way this solves the problem org-mode has which
is keeping the same list sync'd in multiple locations in a clean and
straightforward way.

------
shasta
Four testimonial quotes, a short fluffy video, and a sign up box? That's your
launch website? You're kidding, right?

Is it online only? Is it free? Forever or for a trial? ...

~~~
apu
_If your first version is so impressive that trolls don't make fun of it, you
waited too long to launch._

<http://www.paulgraham.com/really.html>

~~~
shasta
I think he was referring to the product, not the website.

~~~
pg
Sites are usually also pretty bad initially.

------
detcader
A bug: when you put links in, <span>s appear later:
<http://imgur.com/4bvY8.png>

------
dkersten
Doesn't really do much more than what I've already been using
<http://checkvist.com/> for.

------
urlwolf
Looks and feels good. However, it conflicts with vimperator, which is a no-go
for me... I'm sure a workaround can be found. Good job.

------
FluidDjango
Any thoughts about (optionally) turning URLs into hotlinks? Or (as suggested
on techcrunch comments) having (hideable) due dates?

------
davidedicillo
It seems to work like TaskPaper but in a browser, and with less flexibility
being TaskPaper more similar to a simple text editor.

------
dschobel
Very cool, I definitely foresee using it. Please don't forget to add list
export functionality before you sell to Google.

------
kilian
Looks very interesting + simple. However, in Fx3 (sorry I'm outdated) I can't
get passed the intro video after signup.

~~~
jessep
You're in FX 3.? It doesn't work in 3.5, but should work in 3.6 and higher.

~~~
kilian
Both Firefox 3 and firefox 3.5 (ubuntu 9.04 and 10.04). I'll see if I can fix
it on my side :)

------
cies
it is supprisingly nice match to the textfiles google-docs i use a lot lately.

currently i'm playing with meinmeister for deep-not-taking.

compared to mindmeister one thing hold me back in workflowy: lack of links

what i like: \- makes nice use of the space (gets stuff out of the way when
zooming in) \- clean \- works like my text files :)

hmm.. that's more pros then cons :D

~~~
jessep
Yeah, our initial target is people who use text editors (& specifically Google
Docs).

------
rokhayakebe
You need to watch the video on their homepage at the 38 second mark.
Brilliant.

------
gibbsonn
Really like the app, I've been wanting something like this for a long time

------
crocowhile
I cannot move things horizontally, only vertically. That's no no for me.

------
djtumolo
another feature request - when i close a parent task, close out its children.
or at least, prompt me if i want to do that. make navigation into sub items
respect the back button.

------
djtumolo
arrrrgh. i just back buttoned to the article, and went forward to try and find
my list again, and its gone. I have no idea what I'm supposed to do today.

~~~
miketuritzin
Hmmm, that's odd. Your changes are synced to the server every 5 seconds, and
you should be notified if you have unsaved changes when you try to leave the
page.

------
radicade
Would be nice if "control-Z" performs undo.

------
k0ban
I like it. I definitely will forget the name, so I made it
<http://bit.ly/worklist>

------
kubaf
iphone app please :)

~~~
moshezadka
I would ask for a good mobile web version way before an App (android or
iphone). If you have a good mobile web version, people can pretend it's an
app, and if it works -- feel free to use PhoneGap to make a real honest-to-god
app out of it.

------
palish
Very nice!

I really want to attach screenshots to items. I'm going to use Workflowy while
programming... whenever I notice a small tsak (such as refactoring a hack,
reformatting some code, etc), then I'll add it as a Workflowy item.

But rather than type out an item description, it would be way easier for me to
simply screenshot the code. (I do alt-printscreen, paste into MSPaint, save to
dropbox, copy public link.)

Of course, each item could just be a dropbox link to the screenshot...

~~~
chrisgoodrich
I'd +1 this feature request. Although, I would rather not see these show up
in-line but instead be a link for download.

Or possibly better yet, let me browse and attach things from DropBox.

~~~
jessep
Just to clarify, you wouldn't want to upload stuff to WorkFlowy, right? You'd
basically just want to link to it from another location?

~~~
chrisgoodrich
Um. It would be nice to attach (via upload or via link) a screenshot or PDF to
certain items, but I wouldn't want to format this inline with my text. Just be
able to click and view.

I definitely wouldn't want to sacrifice the simplicity and elegance of the
text only view.

------
hasenj
Why do I have to sign up? Why can't I just sort of try it right away?

------
citizenkeys
There's an ongoing argument about the viability of my WikiTorrents.org idea
over here: <http://hackerne.ws/item?id=1871068>

This WorkFlowy thing is basically an incredibly general version of my
WikiTorrents.org idea and it's also YC-funded.

The TechCrunch article quotes the founders: "Almost everything you create on
Google docs is a list."

So there.

------
zyfo
Very smooth experience. Love the "What if your whole life could fit on a piece
of paper?" tagline. Great job!

Key points for keeping it relevant:

\- Mobile

\- Offline access

\- Export/print

Small nitpick: Deleting an empty item shouldn't bring up the undo delete bar.

~~~
miketuritzin
Thanks! All of this stuff is coming in some form in the near future.

As a side-note, there is "unofficial" offline access right now. All of your
edits are batched up when you edit offline and will be synced with the server
when you reconnect. You just can't close your browser window/tab until you
reconnect.

The undelete bar thing is already fixed and will be pushed out soon.

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binaryfinery
I'm visual. Lists don't work for me. But I think my wife would like it. Now if
you can give me the same info presented like mindmanager, then I'm in.

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klbarry
Looks great, the test will come tommorrow when I compare it to my paper list
and try to implement.

