
Love Resembles Addiction - dnetesn
http://nautil.us/issue/33/attraction/love-is-like-cocaine
======
nostrademons
I'd love to see if these MRI studies hold up if you select participants who
are happily married or in long-term relationships of > 3 years length. The
author's study selected participants with a maximum relationship length of 7.4
months. I dug up the Bartel's study referenced by it, and it had selected
participants by putting out posters & Internet posts looking for people
"truly, madly, and deeply in love", and got people with a relationship length
of 2.4 +- 1.7 years:

[http://www.vislab.ucl.ac.uk/pdf/NeuralBasisOfLove.pdf](http://www.vislab.ucl.ac.uk/pdf/NeuralBasisOfLove.pdf)

FWIW, I can recall crushing hard on girls up through college, with exactly the
same drug-like intoxication that the article describes. But as I got more
secure of myself and comfortable in my own skin, the crushes moderated. When I
met my wife, there were no massive can't-stop-thinking-about-you highs, no
obsessive yearning, few intrusive thoughts. It just felt natural - we enjoyed
being together.

This was really disconcerting at first, like maybe it wasn't love after all,
but I checked with a number of friends who were happily married for long
(sometimes >10 years) periods. Very often, they mentioned the same feeling of
_not_ having the trumpets and whistles blow, and instead they grew together
and found that love developed later on. Indeed, the people who were always
"truly, madly, deeply in love" were usually broken up 2 months later.

I've heard a theory circulated round that when we feel that huge deep rush of
intoxication, we're actually reading our "completion" into personal
characteristics that the other person possesses. We're not so much in love
with them as in love with the _idea of being with them_. And that limerence
persists as long as the idea does, but eventually we all have to face the
reality that we are not our partners, and we are not going to somehow become
more or better than ourselves just by being with them. That huge mind-blinding
rush of dopamine when you meet a new person might be an antipattern, because
it blinds us from seeing the real them.

~~~
shubhamjain
This is very enlightening. I am not sure if people are aware but arranged
marriages are still prevalent in India (which these days means being asked to
meet someone and decide in few months if you would want to get married).
Although, it seems a bit awkward and more of being forced into it but there is
statistical evidence that it can work out really well.

If people enjoy being together, love develops eventually.

~~~
winter_blue
I've met some people from India who spent a grand total of 2-3 hours doing
what people in the U.S. would call dating (spending time together; talking to
each other) before deciding to marry them.

I think that _is really messed up_. Marrying someone is one of the most
important decisions you can make in your life, especially if you're planning
to stick with them until you die.

I think you need to spend at least a hundred hours (preferably, even more)
together with a potential mate, before deciding whether you want to spend the
rest of your life with them. A hundred hours together could be a 60 or 70
dinner dates, and weekends spent together, which you could do in less than 6
months.

Everyone puts on a show in the first couple of dates, and it takes a little
while to get to know who a person better / for who they really are.

~~~
simula67
Arranged marriages are probably a vestige of ancient society were alliances
were designed to solidify clan associations.

If more women enter the workforce hopefully a Women's Rights Movement will
take off. Maybe it will induce a sexual revolution and do away with arranged
marriages in Indian society.

I was about to link to the recent NYTimes article [1] posted to HN which said
Indian women were leaving the workforce ( workforce participation slid from
37% to 27% ), but looking at the linked data now it looks it stayed at 27 %
[2]

[1] [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/31/world/asia/indian-women-
la...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/31/world/asia/indian-women-labor-work-
force.html)

[2]
[http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.FE.ZS](http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.FE.ZS)

~~~
anu7df
I think most people commenting here on India and arranged marriages have no
clue what they are talking about. While some of it is generally true, but not
any more truer than if I make a statement like "Cops in the US are wife
beaters" (Translation: Long stressful job with association with violence seems
to increase the likely hood of domestic violence compared to general
population.) Arranged marriages may have started off as ways to solidify clan
associations.. may be.. in the long lost past and more recently for a very
select few. By and large arranged marriages in India now a days is just a
matter of convenience. Mostly parents, bride, groom all reaching some sort of
a consensus as to whether the marriage is likely to succeed. Why does this
matter? Generally because unlike (again generalization) in the western
society, this is truly two families coming together. It is easier for every
one if there is a bit of compatibility between families too in addition to the
bride and groom. As to the "messed up" factor in this, usually these marriages
do not happen overnight. Engagement is followed by many months (to many years)
of time "together" (not necessarily in a live in sort of way) after which the
wedding happens. In many many cases the engagement gets broken off for one
reason or another. There is a certain amount of taboo associated with this, so
it is not easily said and done. On the other hand, this is good practice
ground for resolving conflict among each other. Contrast this to ( what
appears to me, an Indian) the usual dating ritual in the US.. Mostly starts of
with both parties in various degrees of inebriation, followed by some awkward
dates where one pretends to be smarter, funnier and what not, followed by a
few sexual encounters, after which reality may dawn and the relationship is
broken off. Fast forward many years and relationships and at some point the
people involved realize that well, no body is perfect, lets make this work, we
have some similar interests and lets face it, we are getting old. They decide
to make it work and get married. I do not generally see how this has any
chance of working any better. If one could see the magic list of all the
people (past present future) one could potentially get married to, with all
the qualities listed, sure, one can pick the perfect partner. But till then,
it is like predicting the best time to buy a stock. Who knows if something
better is in the horizon. But more importantly should one care?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Pretty cynical. It all depends on your cultural framework I guess. I'm sure
there are places in India (not upper-class technology workers for instance)
where the rules are different. And there are sure different ways in America
for dating to work. How about: meet in college, have a few study dates, go out
for dinner or a movie, meet her parents on Parents' Day, graduate and continue
common interests like folk dance club or book club. Propose among the amazing
plants of the Cactus Garden on campus. No inebriation, settling or age-related
angst involved.

~~~
winter_blue
A bunch of my friends have actually gotten married that way. They met and
dated their future spouse in college, and got engaged in their senior year,
and married the summer after graduation.

They were all serious Christians though. They also went to lengths to ensure
there was absolutely no sexual contact whatsoever before marriage -- e.g. by
avoiding being alone in a room with their fianceé; always meeting/dating in
public places, etc.

I will admit, American Christians do fall outside the majority cultural norm
in this country, and I was writing from that perspective.

------
rdtsc
> I think romantic love is an addiction ...

Or perhaps addiction is like romantic love. (Also noticed the first comment
for that article also mentions this).

Evolution probably had good reason to select an addiction center in the brain
because, well ... those that didn't have and didn't fight for their loved
ones, didn't start wars because of it, didn't care as much, somehow haven't
made it this far. So that machinery seems to serve a purpose.

~~~
danieltillett
Evolution never has a reason - it just is what tends to happen :)

Having said this it is a really interesting question what could be the
evolutionary force driving romantic love. My pet hypothesis is that it holds
couples together long enough for their children to be too old to abandon.

------
liamconnell
> Few academics and laymen regard romantic love as an addiction

I think dozens on pop songs say otherwise.

Jazz: "Like someone in love" "you go to my head" Pop: Kelly Clarkson's
"Addicted", Kanye's "Addiction", Kesha "You're love is my drug" (and those are
just the "K" artists!)...

~~~
agumonkey
Gretchen Parlato cover of SWV's weak made me aware of this:

    
    
        'when the cause and cure is you.'
    
     that illustrate the situation pretty well.

------
Houshalter
Since love came first, wouldn't it be more accurate to say cocaine is like
love? But somehow that sounds worse.

~~~
mirimir
Yes, my thought precisely.

There's also cross-tolerance ;)

But cocaine can be far more intense. Once you burn out those dopamine
channels, they don't come back. You lose, more or less permanently, the
ability to love, or even care very deeply.

~~~
jaytaylor
Your comment prompted me to do a quick search; interesting concept. Thanks!

[http://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/08/31/health/views/31mind.htm...](http://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/08/31/health/views/31mind.html)

~~~
ktRolster
That's brutal. I'm never doing drugs.

~~~
mirimir
That's one option.

But for sure, one should be careful with drugs that down-regulate receptors,
especially those that do so long-term or permanently. As cocaine does.
Receptor down-regulation is the mechanism for biological addiction. Cocaine is
less addictive than nicotine, ethanol or opiates. You need considerable high-
dose exposure to do serious damage. But once it's done, you're screwed.

------
michaelwww
I was in a crazy addicted love relationship once in my life in 2007 and it
scared us both because of it's irrational power and what the article terms
"intrusive thinking." We met on StumbleUpon and were attracted by our shared
sensibilities at first, later much more than that after we met. About that
time, when it was getting crazy, we both read the story of game designer
Theresa Duncan[1] and artist Jeremy Blake[2], two lovers who committed suicide
within a week of one another. She and I broke it off after that. It seemed
like the smart thing to do. I would have scoffed at this article if I had not
had a very real experience of what the article is describing.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_Duncan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_Duncan)
[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Blake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Blake)

~~~
mahmud
We didn't. I met a girl overseas and within 24 hours we moved in together.
Obsessive, all encompassing, "can't take my eyes off you" love.

I moved continents to be with her; 8 years together, married for 4.

Then suddenly, early last year, it all fell apart as quickly as it started.
Finalizing divorce next month.

It was crazy, but I feel blessed to have experienced it. We're still good
friends, but the thrill is gone, well and truly. I was actually relieved when
she said she was having an affair. Good, I thought, better you than me; now
let's end this.

~~~
delazeur
Stories like yours make me wonder if "marriage for life" is even a worthwhile
goal.

~~~
tdkl
It's hard, because people change through life. But I guess if you can change
together, that you found a pretty good match.

------
codeshaman
True, mad love is a beautiful experience, maybe the most powerful and
satisfying thing that can happen to you.

I have been lucky to have experienced it once and now, 8 years later we still
have it in us.

Of course it doesn't manifest in endless nights of looking into each other's
eyes, but we still cherish that period as a gift from God himself.

Yes it does resemble an addiction, although maybe it's worth reversing the
terms - addiction is actually like "true" love.

Everything in our lives just clicked - we'd just moved to the beautiful city
of Barcelona, it was spring time and flowers were in bloom, we had money, more
than we could spend and we traveled around and experienced each other through
Europe - Paris, Amsterdam, Lisbon, Brussels, Stockholm, Athens, Vienna, ...

Every week in a different city, weather was always great, the food and wine
were fantastic - but all that beauty around us was pale in comparison to the
look in her eyes.

That look - when this beautiful girl looks at you like you are everything for
her and you feel like she's everything for you - like you are the perfect
drugs for each other - that is a powerful and fulfilling experience.

That's what it feels like to be blessed.

Our daughter is the result of that love and we often joke that our love was
actually the effect of her coming into this world.

Drugs don't really come close to the powerful emotions that we can generate
naturally when we are in love - I can only compare it to an MDMA trip that
lasts for months...

That love has carried us through the difficult moments of having a child and
careers in our modern, artificial society and we would have been separated
many times had it not been for those memories.

~~~
greggman
I love your story. I hate that can't tell if I should wait for that or
"settle" for the feeling others describe of "just well comfortable". I keep
waiting for, searching for, your style of relationship but all I find,
generally, is the "this is comfortable" style which while pleasant is also
mostly "take it or leave it" kind of feeling for me. For lack of a better way
it's nice while together but it's mostly "out sight out of mind".

------
abalashov
I think it varies by cultural extraction and emotional background. My life
experience suggests that people from "warm" and "romantic" cultures are more
likely to experience the highs of falling in love than people from more
measured, rationalistic and phlegmatic cultures.

Being from a "warm and romantic" background myself, I can confirm that falling
in love is very much intoxicating. It alters one's frame of mind and leads to
decisions one simply would not make for any other reason. Some of them are
quite momentous and have lasting impact indeed.

~~~
trentmb
I grew up in the care of parents that decided to stay together for the
children.

I can't really complain--they both love me--I grew up in a safe middle class
environment, one of them always read with me at night when I was young, I
never worried about being hungry, got toys on x-mas, etc. They certainly never
abused me.

But to this day I struggle with relationships. I have a hard time connecting
with people, even in a non-romantic context.

Man, I realize I don't know anyone who's going to read this, but it feels real
good to confess it to someone.

EDIT: To be honest, I feel like such an asshole. There are people that have
had it way worse than me, and here I am feeling sorry for myself.

~~~
sjg007
Nah man don't compare yourself to others or minimize your experience. I grew
up in a similar situation. It sucks. Your role models are all messed up. Your
normal is not really normal as they say. But now you know a reason why
relationships may be difficult for you and now you can actively work on them.
You can choose to be different and who you want to be with. It takes a lot of
work but it's worth it. It's good that you recognize it for what it was. A lot
of people don't get there. Some of us repeat the same patterns.

~~~
trentmb
> It takes a lot of work but it's worth it. It's good that you recognize it
> for what it was. A lot of people don't get there.

I don't really know what the next step to take is.

------
noobermin
If not love, then what else?

Couldn't someone say you're addicted to work? To entrepreneurship? Solving
problems? Or for many here, hacking?

~~~
wanda
Solving problems ⊃ hacking

(Not being pedantic, I just like set theory symbols and never get to use them)

~~~
noobermin
Probably the better superset is intellectual stimulation. Hacking, strategy
games, crossword puzzles...all fall under that moniker, and are they so
addicting too! It's just of great luck that unlike cocaine or love, hacking
can lead to returns in other utilities like in money and a career.

------
sdegutis
Real love is actually pretty good for you altogether, body and mind,
emotionally and psychologically. But that's not what most people think of as
"love".

------
miteinander
This particular trope of equating romantic love and substance addiction is
annoying and fundamentally confused. It doesn't take neurology to understand
that any activity from which we derive pleasure could, given the right
circumstances or wrong attitudes, lead to a self-destructive spiral. And if
one is aware that dopamine and other neurotransmitters are how pleasure is
"implemented" in the brain, research which correlates a pleasurable experience
with adaptive dopamine responses is pretty yawn-inducing.

Even if one doesn't agree that the factual content of this research is boring,
rather than salacious, I think the conclusions drawn here are vastly premature
given our current understanding of the brain. Imagine that somebody with a
tool to "see" electrical currents (an oscilloscope? CAT scan? I don't know)
was looking at my computer, first as I unleash a massive DDOS attack on some
unsuspecting evildoers, and then as I put my latest philosophical writings on
my ftp server for all my rabid fans. In both cases they'd see my NIC go crazy,
working itself to death to blast out packets to either badly configured DNS
servers or badly confused human beings (as it happens, these human being
strongly resemble cocaine addicts when it comes to reading highly digressive
rants composed by yours truly). So, is hosting an essay on an FTP server "the
same" as initiating a DDOS? Yes, I suppose either one could fry my network
adapter, but that's pretty contingent. So, how exactly are they different, and
what does this have to do with cocaine?

Restricting ourselves to what's happening inside the computer, the differences
reside atop a massive tower of abstraction. And what's more, these differences
put down shallow roots. Even with an understanding of the von neumann
architechure generally or my intel chip in particular, most physical
("neurological") measurements one could make would look pretty damn similar.
One would have to understand the dynamic relationship between the cpu state
register, my RAM chips, and my Hard Drive to even begin to grok what's
"really" going on. I think neuroscience is in a state analogous to that of a
man measuring currents in a modern computer. Even if it turns out that in
certain neurological ways love and cocaine are _completely identical_ , it may
turn out that the similarities are completely overshadowed by subtler states
in a different subsystem. We don't understand brain architecture, so who
knows.

And really, the crux of the difference between the DDOS and rabid fans
downloading my latest essay in beautiful LaTeX formatting has to do with the
way the activity is situated in the relationship between me and the social
world in which I exist. And the same is true of the difference between love
and cocaine addiction. Courtship is a foundational human activity, one that
profoundly shapes our cultural practices and understanding of ourselves. _Of
course_ it changes us! What the hell is meant by "Normal Altered State?" What
is an "unaltered" human state? Being a human is _inherently_ a state of
profound embeddedness in a culture which originates in _others_. And another
human being, who is also a rich and complex cultural creature, has
immeasurably more to offer than the cruel, contentless, solipsistic chokehold
of a drug addiction.

Take it from somebody who has both.

~~~
mfn
Out of curiosity, and if you don't mind sharing, do you have a site/blog where
I'd be able to find more of your writing?

------
ahussain
This is one of the reasons to read Infinite Jest - it explores the concept of
addiction with incredible depth and interest.

I love the idea that many things in life can be modeled as addictions.
Abstractly, an addiction takes the pattern of long periods of misery (plateau)
interrupted by brief moments of ecstasy - what's special about an addiction is
that it feels like the moments of ecstasy are worth it. This pattern is
similar to that involved in learning a new skill, or going through a
personality change.

------
tyingq
I'm reminded of these lyrics...

 _" Love is like oxygen...You get too much you get too high... Not enough and
you're gonna die"_

~~~
qohen
Long (album) version:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRVwcPTnug8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRVwcPTnug8)

Short (single) version:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTlM6OBRc8w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTlM6OBRc8w)

By Sweet:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sweet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sweet)

(You may know them better for _The Ballroom Blitz_ :
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_jdiU47bFA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_jdiU47bFA)
).

------
pingou
There's a documentary about this with the scientist who wrote the article

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleepless_in_New_York](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleepless_in_New_York)

------
ZenoArrow
This is a good example of why love is so misunderstood. What is being
described in the article is closer to desire than love. The two are not the
same, though desire can be the gateway towards love. Loving relationships
aren't defined by codependency, though desire and love can exist together.

I'm not a Christian, but the best description of love (that I know of) is
found in the Bible...

[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+1...](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13:4-8)

~~~
vinceguidry
I wouldn't be so quick to label and put experiences into boxes. Your
experience and your culture and your understanding of love can be so different
than another person's that labels mostly just get in the way.

To look at it in information-theoretic terms, you need a higher-bandwidth
channel to communicate about "core" experiences like love. Labels condense
information by encoding culture and definition into them. So it's tempting to
reach for them. But if the person you're communicating with doesn't share the
same culture and definition, then you wind up mis-communicating until you can
work out the source of the disconnect.

Labels are great for talking about computer software systems. Not so much for
love.

For me, and to use your terms, I can't feel romantic love for someone without
also having desire for them. I can care deeply for them, want the best for
them whether it's with or without me, but in order for me to have a loving
relationship with someone, desire has to be a constant undercurrent. I cannot
spend copious amounts of time with a person otherwise, I start to retreat back
into myself. Desire is that thing that draws me out and allows others in, it's
absolutely essential.

So, while your love / desire divide may work well enough for your purposes, it
won't necessarily for other people. You can try to adapt the framework to
accommodate them, but do this too many times and you're left with a mess.

It's best to just share your own experiences with as plain of language as you
can and let other people come up with their own abstractions.

~~~
ZenoArrow
> "Desire is that thing that draws me out and allows others in, it's
> absolutely essential."

That's what I meant by saying that desire can be the gateway to love. Desire
helps you commit, love can grow from that point on.

~~~
mercer
I see desire/infatuation as catalyst or bootstrapping mechanism for a
relationship. In my experience the early stages of a relationship involve a
lot of calibration: communication style, likes/dislikes, emotional landmines,
lifestyle, etc.

Without the strong feelings that often characterize the first period in a
relationship, I or the other would probably have bailed out before even
figuring out if some of these issues can be resolved.

Of course, the downside is that I've found myself spending a lot of time and
energy in the infatuation phase only to discover that there were fundamental
incompatibilities and wondering how I could have felt so strongly about this
other person in the first place. But I guess that's unavoidable.

------
blubb-fish
[http://www.pnas.org/content/113/5/1417](http://www.pnas.org/content/113/5/1417)

Cocain destroys your mind - love heals it.

~~~
jayess
Losing love has been the most unexpectedly devastating thing I've experienced.

------
tiatia
Love and Addiction [http://www.amazon.com/Love-Addiction-Stanton-Peele-
ebook/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Love-Addiction-Stanton-Peele-
ebook/dp/B00IVAQQOK)

------
coolandsmartrr
I wonder what chemical reactions occur inside our brains and bodies when we
"fall in love." Reminds me of _Rick and Morty_ , which refers to love as
purely a symptom of secreting oxytocin.

------
InclinedPlane
Which one has been around longer? Think the comparison might be backward.

~~~
ajuc
I'm quite sure plants were there before humans.

------
solidsnack9000
> Modern data suggest that romantic love should be treated as an addiction,
> regardless of its lack of official diagnostic classification as an
> addiction.

What would this mean in practice? Court-ordered rehab?

~~~
scotty79
For stalkers, perhaps. Might be beneficial.

------
pcvarmint
Stanton Peele made this observation 40 years ago.

------
liveoneggs
happy valentines day! the onslaught of "love"-based articles is great.

------
dschiptsov
Oh, really?

------
satyajeet23
LOVE IS LIKE COCAINE!

