
Whole Foods workers seek to unionize - deegles
https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/06/whole-foods-workers-seek-to-unionize-says-amazon-is-exploiting-our-dedication/
======
sequoia
"In a statement provided to TechCrunch, a representative of Whole Foods said
they respect the “ _individual_ rights of [their] team members.”"

Ha... now _there 's_ a carefully chosen phrase.

“[We] have an open-door policy that encourages team members to bring their
comments, questions and concerns directly to their team leaders,”

I'd refer to this gif[0] but I know they're not serious. If anyone believes
individual cashiers asking for maternity leave is a good way to get it, I've
got a bridge you might also be interested in buying.

0:
[http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3AkXJmV0AIY/T_Yj4_zOF7I/AAAAAAAAAJ...](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3AkXJmV0AIY/T_Yj4_zOF7I/AAAAAAAAAJ0/-hReEvLaRiY/s1600/Oh-
Wait-Youre-Serious_o_97195.gif)

~~~
skrebbel
> If anyone believes individual cashiers asking for maternity leave is a good
> way to get it

I recognize that your comment is dripping of cynicism so I'm not entirely sure
which parts are true.

You're saying that you can't get maternity leave at Whole Foods (or in the
entire USA maybe? I don't know whether this is national or just that Whole
Foods is somehow a horrible, terrible, no good employer) when you ask? How
about with a doctor's note that says that yes indeed, you're pregnant? Isn't
there laws about that sort of stuff? And wasn't Whole Foods supposed to be the
upmarket, organic, do-goodery, happy happy joy joy supermarket?

Seriously when I read stuff like this I wonder how it's possible that America
functions, well, at all. Do they expect people to just bleep the groceries in-
between the contractions? Hey yo don't worry I can breast-feed the little one
with a single hand and use the other hand to bag your leek.

~~~
spacehome
If an employee is pregnant, no one is forcing the employee to show up for
work. When people talk about maternity leave, they usually don't mean the
ability to not show up for work (which is a given in a free society), but
rather the obligation of the employer to pay the employee whether or not she
shows up for work. This meaning of 'maternity leave' is not a legal
requirement of employment in the US, though some employers include it _.
Employers are not and should not be required to pay you for work you are not
doing. If maternity leave is important to an employee, it 's important to
negotiate it when arranging employment, or failing that, negotiate a high
enough salary that you can afford to save for a couple months without income.

_As of 1993, companies with 50 employees or more must offer unpaid maternity
leave.

~~~
xg15
> _Employers are not and should not be required to pay you for work you are
> not doing._

Most other developed countries seem to see that slightly differently. But ok,
it is a stance you can discuss - however, it becomes enormously cynical when
combined with the conservative aversion against welfare rights:

So you're pregnant or sick and happen to not have enough resources to live
from savings for a few months. If neither the state nor the employers are
obligated to help you, who exactly is?

~~~
zero_intp
America is known for practicing social darwinism as though it were a positive
thing.

~~~
xg15
I remember an "ask a conservative" thread on reddit a while ago. What I found
remarkable was that a lot of discussions that were ostensibly about "small
government" or "promotion of conservative values", when challanged by a few
counter-questions, shifted pretty quickly to population control along the
lines of "if the poor get too much welfare they'll just have more kids".

Admittedly, this was reddit, so apologies if I'm misrepresenting real-life
conservatives here, but that thread got me thinking that a lot of the
political discussion might, at the root, actually _be_ about social darwinism.

~~~
tekknik
Yes you most definitely are misrepresenting the conservatives. None of it has
to do with family values or anything other than the lack of understand on the
left as to why your employer should not be forced to pay for everything you do
or want to do.

------
biztos
All my experience shopping at grocery chains in the US and elsewhere has
impressed upon me that these workers represent the absolute classic, textbook
case for unionization.

Yes, including Whole Paycheck[0] as well as Trader Joe's and Safeway and Von's
and everybody else.

While I can imagine Amazon having a loathing of unions, if they really want to
be in this space they will sooner or later have to contend with the fact that
this is an industry that needs a union. And I think, at obvious risk of being
wrong, that the US is going to become once again more union-friendly in the
coming years.

So maybe a very friendly, not very confrontational, laid-back and smiley group
of workers flirting with unionization might be a way for Amazon to put a toe
in that water without overcommitting. Much as the WholeFoods acquisition was
per se.

[0]: Whole Foods goes by this nickname in California. Because you spend
your...

~~~
FighterMafia
"All my experience shopping at grocery chains in the US and elsewhere has
impressed upon me that these workers represent the absolute classic, textbook
case for unionization."

Why?

"...an industry that needs a union.."

Why?

"...more union-friendly in the coming years"

Why?

Nothing you said is grounded in any actual analysis or verifiable facts.

I'd argue that undifferentiated skills that require little education make this
an industry poorly suited to unions; Even if you unionize you have little
chance of success since most workers are easily replaced by scabs or increased
automation. Many workers are also kids in school (speaking from experience --
I used to work in a produce department while studying),and so would not join a
union regardless due to the temporary nature of their employment. Butchers and
bakers may be an exception, but these are the minority compared to checkout
workers, stock boys, or produce workers.

So maybe they'd benefit significantly from the fruits of unionization as
experienced in more technically complex industries...but they are highly
unlikely to receive those fruits.

~~~
alkonaut
Speaking from the perspective of working unions (Scandinavia) what makes
unions work and be relevant are the protections they enjoy. The unions
_fought_ for these protections. Without being able to unionize you can't
improve your position as a union either. You have to start somewhere.

So: first: employers can't choose (freely) who to lay off. It's first in last
out, or if you want to sidestep that, you'll have to compensate the employee
quite heavily.

Second: "proper" union strikes have a very protected status. An employer who
would hire scabs would be quickly taken out of business. They'd switfly be
blockaded by _other_ unions in sympathy. So for example: a store hiring scabs
to replace striking union store workers would quickly find that their trash
isn't picked up, that the cleaners don't show up, that no electrician fixes
their fridges, and so on (Also: these type of measures are also protected).

Without having these two protections (can't fire, can't hire scabs) unions are
very weak compared to employers. I'd argue that _with_ these protections,
unions and employers have a pretty equal playing field.

Note also that these protections didn't come free: the employers' share of the
deal was that there is no minimum wage and you can't have protected strikes
during the agreement periods which are typically 1-3 years. So the strikes
will occur at known intervals if negotiations for the next agreement stalls.

~~~
gdfasfklshg4
First-in-last-out is an objectively terrible way to hire and fire though. As
an employee I feel personally invested in the success of the business I work
for. I don't want to work with less competent employees because of an
arbitrary rule. I want the weaker people to eventually be let go. I do want a
safe secure workplace. I don't want people fired on a whim. I want training
opportunities to be provided first. I want people's performance to be judged
over the whole course of their employment not just the last quarter. But at
crunch time I want the less well performing people to be let go rather than
just the newest.

EDIT Re-reading this I realised I missed some perspective. A key ingredient
related to hiring and firing in the society I want to (and do) live in is that
when someone loses their job they have unemployment benefits that cover a
significant fraction of their salary. This gives them time to find another job
and makes losing your job a much less traumatic event.

~~~
bopbop
As an aside, Let go is such an interesting term. It's such a well accepted
piece of corporate doublespeak.

It's like they want to go, and their employer is letting them. They're
straining at the leash to be unemployed, and the employer graciously releases
them from the burden of their contract.

They're being fired.

~~~
gdfasfklshg4
Fired implies that the employee did something wrong.

Let go is a euphemism for made redundant/laid off. I do agree that it is a
euphemism.

~~~
michaelt
In my experience, let go is a euphemism used to avoid saying if they were
fired or made redundant.

------
pxlpshr
A lot of finger pointing at Amazon but most of the employment demands from the
'union' have been characteristics of Whole Foods since looonnngg before the
aquisition. For example, unpaid paternity/maternity leave, no recognition of
any holiday including federal - just 3 weeks of PTO used at your discretion,
below market compensation, crappy benefits, calcified management, and the list
goes on.

Most people work there because of the perceived culture of being free-spirit &
hippy, but from my observation it's not that great of a place to build a
career & wealth. Or perhaps it's par for the course and I'm just accustom to
tech companies treating their people pretty well given how competitive the
market is for top talent.

Source: I live in Austin with friends who work at the HQ.

~~~
chrissnell
We're in the middle of the best economy in years. Why would a worker put up
with that? Go someplace else. Whole Foods doesn't put stores in small towns.
Anyone who works there has plenty of other options.

~~~
noobermin
There have been umpteen articles how wages have not kept up with inflation.
It's a tough sell telling parts of the country that swapped the first black
president for man with a less than stellar morality record that this is the
best economy in history.

~~~
pluto9
> swapped the first black president for man with a less than stellar morality
> record

This is a weird juxtaposition. You appear to be implying that "first black
president" and "less than stellar morality" are moral opposites.

~~~
noobermin
Walking into changing rooms of teenage girls isn't indicative of moral
character, or is being the focus of multiple sexual assault allegations.

And if that's just "fake news" given it has been reported in multiple sources,
then I suppose I can just call any retort you make as "fake news" as well.

~~~
pluto9
Were you trying to reply to a different comment? Because your response makes
absolutely no sense.

> Walking into changing rooms of teenage girls isn't indicative of moral
> character, or is being the focus of multiple sexual assault allegations.

Congrats on inventing this never-before-seen grammatical construct, though.

------
imagiko
I have noticed that the cashier's have gotten pushy about asking about a Prime
account, and very recently about a charity donation. It's a good way to 'make'
people donate when asked upfront. I'm sure the probability of people donating
increases. When I denied, I was asked if I'd like to round off my payment and
have the balance donated. Honestly, it's very annoying. Whole foods is
unfortunately becoming an REI store.

~~~
lsmarigo
Panda Express kicks this up a notch and has a little bell they ring whenever
someone donates their change adding an element of social pressure/shame, super
scummy

~~~
masonic
They are scummy in general. All the PEs near me stop cooking all their best
entree items by 7PM on the theory that customers will accept whatever slop is
left... yet they continue to offer all their items over mobile (they'll just
happily tell you they "ran out" when you get there).

~~~
aviv
Panda Express is high up there in the list of nastiest fast food places. Pure
garbage food. And as you probably know, they will gladly dump a fresh batch of
Orange Chicken on top of a 3 hour old batch and so some portion of their
entrees are kept on the hot plate for half a day. Nasty. What they do is
criminal.

~~~
lovich
You should perhaps, never look at how food is prepared at any fast food
location. At every food prep place I've worked, we only saw the big boss when
they were running over to tell us to replace everything because they saw the
health inspector. Usually they had the line manager telling us to replace
nothing, and firing or reducing hours of employees who followed the posted
food safety guides

------
kbd
Figure this is an appropriate time to share this story: went to Whole Foods a
little while back and the cashier seemed nearly terrified that she'd be
terminated if she didn't make sure to ask before checkout if the customer was
a Prime member. I'm pretty sure she said that other people had been for
forgetting.

~~~
crazygringo
How is that any different from grocery stores asking everyone if they have a
reward card, clothing stores asking if you have their credit card, McDonald's
asking if you want to super-size that, or bartenders being required to offer
to upsell liquor?

It's extremely common for cashiers to be required to ask if customers are part
of whatever program is relevant, if they would like the current promotion,
etc. Nobody's going to get fired for forgetting once... but if you're reminded
repeatedly by management and you continue not to, then what would you expect
to happen?

~~~
matthewmacleod
_but if you 're reminded repeatedly by management and you continue not to,
then what would you expect to happen?_

I’d expect a massive fucking award for not constantly pissing off customers
with this nonsense.

~~~
EpicEng
And you'd be fired because no one else lives in the world you've created in
your head.

~~~
deathanatos
And that's part of the problem.

I go to Super Duper in SF, and every time, the employee is forced to ask:
"Have you been to Super Duper before?" If I say yes, "Welcome back!" if I say
no, "Welcome!"¹. It is pointless. All I want is lunch. Want to see that I've
been here before? You have my credit card number…

¹The exact words might not be right, the point is that there is no meaningful
difference to the customer between the responses.

~~~
EpicEng
>"Welcome!"¹. It is pointless. All I want is lunch.

Yeesh. If that bugs you then... just lighten up. Most people aren't anti-
social to such an extreme. You're the odd man out here, not the rest of
humanity.

~~~
HarryHirsch
_You 're the odd man out here, not the rest of humanity._

Really? People like the forced conviviality? In San Francisco, one of the most
ethnically diverse cities in the country? With a sizable number of first-
generation immigrants, unacculturated to the strange customs of the USA?

Why can't we have attentive food service, where they pour you fresh coffee
_the second you sign them to_ but not earlier, and where they don't intrude on
the conversation every 3 to 5 minutes?

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
You can, you just have to avoid chain restaurants to do so.

------
s3r3nity
My concern with this is that this will only accelerate the probability that
Amazon Go merges with Whole Foods to have a cashier-free experience.

>Shoppers, however, have saved millions as a result of the shake-up.

This is why you're going to have a tough time getting sympathy from the
public, and why I think (for better or worse) Amazon will win the PR battle.
The average person now has access to healthier grocery / purchasing options as
Whole Foods pricing has come down. If prices go up, they'll just switch to
Walmart or some other cheaper option - leading to WF losses, and even more
layoffs.

~~~
rossdavidh
In Texas, anyway (where WF started), other grocery chains have been passing
them by. A big part of why WF sold to Amazon is that they are getting squeezed
between co-ops and chains like HEB's "Central Market" stores, which have lots
of organic produce at better prices and with better public image. Trader Joe's
is another chain that has been encroaching on their space. I think WF was
pushing the envelope on healthier and/or more socially responsible produce and
other foodstuffs 20 years ago, but that ship has long since sailed. Amazon got
them past their "best by" date.

~~~
yurishimo
As a small side note, Central Market is also pushing into the online shopping
model and using open source software to do it. A friend here in Dallas worked
on their WooCommerce integration.

~~~
Kephael
WooCommerce vs the largest e-commerce platform in the world? I've been to the
Amazon Go store and took a close look at the camera arrays, these toy
retailers are whistling past the graveyard.

~~~
rossdavidh
Perhaps, but a decade ago people said that HEB/Central Market were doomed
because WalMart was moving into groceries, and at that time WalMart was
considered the unstoppable retail behemoth. If I were placing bets on who will
do better in groceries ecommerce, I would bet on the company that has its
entire focus on that, especially when they have a history of beating back big
competitors who come from other retail sectors.

------
throw2016
There are trade bodies, industry bodies, industry associations, chambers of
commerce, special interest groups, lobbying groups and it goes on. Every
business and corporate is a member of multiple bodies to further their
interests and nobody questions these groupings.

Yet employee and worker bodies causes discussion and debate as if somehow only
this aspect of economic life should not seek to promote and protect their
interests. Even billion dollar companies feel the need to form groups but
individuals apparently do not benefit from association. This is a completely
unrealistic position in the current economic context.

This is dissonance at work, to accept the logic of the former and see it work
so effectively, and question the latter.

~~~
conanbatt
All the other interest groups you mention definitely create the questioning
and the criticism. They have just been more successful at permeating public
perception. Almost always being complicit with the state. Doctors? Lawyers?
Lobbying? They all get criticism.

I also dissent with the model of "everybody commits an act against society,
why shouldnt anyone engage in the race to capture the spoils". Do not
institutionalize robbery!

~~~
Apocryphon
The other interest groups, with greater power and influence, have already
institutionalized it. Should the disempowered simply refuse to engage, and
suffer for it?

~~~
conanbatt
Union leaders can aim for that they want, I personally commit to dissent all
forms of that robbery and desire for a freer and more fair society. I do not
want to fight for the spoils of exploitation.

~~~
Apocryphon
I see. So you yearn for a world without capitalism.

~~~
conanbatt
Its not capitalism that creates spoils it is the government that takes money
from people and then decides what to do with it.

~~~
Apocryphon
The ancestral post in this thread that listed many different types of NGOs
backed by industry leaders who seek to enlarge their share of the spoils, and
asked why unions should not be one of them. No one mentioned government
involvement.

Maybe society is based upon competition?

------
vadym909
About time- I can't imagine how long before more unions start forming. Just
hope they come up with a better model for a union 2.0 cos the old model has a
pretty bad reputation.

------
nathansobo
I miss the old Whole Foods. I feel like the shopping experience has gone
downhill in a variety of ways.

~~~
tomjakubowski
Almost overnight following the acquisition, security at my local Whole Foods
turned from the usual couple people wandering the store with walkie talkies to
a team of "tacticool" guys in sunglasses staring down the aisles and muttering
to each other with earpieces and lapel mics. It's creepy.

~~~
morsch
Security people at the supermarket? What are they, worried the peas are going
to start a fight with the turnips?

------
nickkell
More power to them!

I'm a software developer and I wished I had been in a union a couple of years
ago. Back then I was working at a company in the middle of nowhere in England
after finishing my degree. After several years the boss decided that we were
all being paid too much and increased everyone's weekly working hours without
additional compensation. I had no strong ties to the area, so practically
straight away I quit and moved to London. Unfortunately for most of my
colleagues they had family and friends there and this was the only real tech
company in the area. It's an incredible feeling, being an educated
professional and yet at the same time completely impotent.

------
LTjoker
Funny, I just quit <redacted-Bezos-company> stating I would not participate in
a culture of fear.

------
nickthemagicman
There couldn't be two more different companies than Amazon and the pre Amazon
Whole Foods company.

------
torgian
Eff that noise. I’ll just keep buying my food at Food an’ Stuff.

------
cliffordthedog
Good timing, last thing Amazon will want right now is a battle with a union.
Especially for a company they acquired so recently (shows that things got
quickly worse with Amazon in charge).

Good luck Whole Foods workers.

~~~
notyourwork
I'm not sure this shows things got quickly worse. It may just show Whole Foods
employees lost control they used to have but I think you are jumping to
conclusions.

~~~
akudha
Not sure if things have gone bad for employees (not a surprise though), but as
a shopper, things have definitely gone bad. Most visible one is empty shelves,
which is becoming more and more frequent. Maybe they did some "optimization",
doesn't help shoppers though

~~~
andrewprock
I went there the other day to buy tomatillos. They didn't have any, so I had
to go to Smart and Final.

When Whole Foods can't get produce that Smart and Final can, it tells me that
they don't want to carry that produce.

~~~
tptacek
Whole Foods produce has been dreadful for years. As I understand it, that's
the result of a deliberate shift from groceries to prepared foods ("stop in
and pick up dinner for the night"). Amazon definitely didn't break Whole Foods
produce.

Whole Foods in Chicago does a good job with meat, dairy, and beer. We more or
less treat it as a specialty store for those three categories, and buy
everything else from local stores. Produce, in particular, is always better at
Mexican grocery stores.

------
ct520
These people do realize amazon owns and as is heavily invested in the most
technological advance replacement for cashiers right?

~~~
hannasanarion
So you're saying they should therefore be happy to be treated like robots?

~~~
ct520
economy is booming, last I checked they were not slaves.

------
ProfBernardo
Ah, Tech Crunch... liberal click-bait strikes again. It's like NPR that
doesn't sleep.

------
ProfBernardo
If they don't like working there, then they should go work somewhere else.
It's still a free country... right???

~~~
maxxxxx
They are also free to unionize, right?

~~~
ProfBernardo
Of course. Why waste the time to work somewhere you're not happy working,
though?

~~~
megablast
To make things better for everyone? Not everyone is selfish.

~~~
ProfBernardo
So, working somewhere you hate in the name of bettering others is the right
thing to do? Does that really help anyone?

~~~
ironmagma
Well, we wouldn't really have operating schools or governments without that,
so yes it does help people.

------
stcredzero
There are Whole Foods workers who have dedication. There are those who don't.
I've had my best luck with Whole Foods in Texas.

------
codeddesign
I fail to see “dedication”. Anyone getting paid minimum wage and working sub
hours for a non career job is not going to be highly dedicated to a position.
While I’m not against unionizing, I am against the rise of unskilled labor
assuming that an employer owes them something. Unionizing isn’t inherently
bad, but unions do tend to exploit both the laborer and the employer for the
union’s gain. Failed labor unions combined with a workforce culture that feels
owed is ultimately hurts these workers in the long term.

~~~
bonestamp2
I have trouble getting on board with your opinion about their dedication
because Whole Foods stores across the country have some of the best and most
consistent customer service experiences I've had. I'd say there's no doubt
they are more dedicated than most retail workers. The real question for me is
if they are worth $15/hr? I don't know the business, so I can't say with any
certainty there.

~~~
s73v3r_
Amazon is a trillion dollar company. There is no reason they can't pay
$15/hour.

~~~
erik_seaberg
$15/hour for 560K full-time employees would be $17B/year. Amazon shares are
somehow a $1T commodity for speculators but the actual business clears
$3B/year, so depending on how much of their SG&A today is labor they might
truly be unable to sustain it.

