
Stochastic – Create and manage contracts backed by Bitcoin - r32a_
https://stochastic.xyz/
======
advisedwang
How did you pick the name "Stochastic"? Surely randomness is the last thing
you want in a contracts system?

~~~
rajacombinator
Yea sometimes one should consider the meaning of a word even if it sounds cool
...

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rrggrr
Radically honest assessment:

\- BTC volatility makes the contract pricing (budget) and proof of funds a
moving target.

\- Its not even a semi-autonomous smart contract, so enforcement requires the
same legal expense to enforce as a normal contract.

\- Jury.io is a year ahead, and I've not checked recently but I believe
Allegro is as well.

There is no innovation here. I wish there was b/c we could use a fully vetted
product like this.

~~~
tom_mellior
> Jury.io is a year ahead

The jury.io that redirects to [http://yourather.com/](http://yourather.com/),
a toy website? Or did you mean [https://juro.com/](https://juro.com/)? That's
a website where "customers can generate, negotiate and sign contracts through
one integrated platform and then learn from the rich data that contracts
contain". That's great, but it doesn't seem to be at all what Stochastic wants
to do, which is to keep money in escrow until the contract is fulfilled. (I
guess you could combine those.)

> Allegro is as well

Have a link? I do find stuff when searching the web for "allegro contracts",
but it turns out that the name is much too generic to guess what you mean.

~~~
kossae
I think the jury.io reference should have been to
[https://jury.online/](https://jury.online/) ... but only guessing here.

~~~
tom_mellior
Right, but that's just an escrow service for ICOs, not for any other type of
contract, no?

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woah
Somehow I have a feeling that a major motivation for this project was to have
a chance to say "Bitcoin smart contracts"

~~~
r32a_
You are correct!

Technically every Bitcoin transaction is a smart contract, the language of the
contract is Bitcoin Script (Forth-like, stack-based language,
[https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script](https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script)).

Currently, we are only using P2WSH to create 2/2 and 2/3 Multi-sigs but in the
future, we hope to create other types of contracts with different clauses and
also an easy to use UI to accompany it.

~~~
Boulth
How do you get these contracts accepted? According to [https://curiosity-
driven.org/bitcoin-contracts](https://curiosity-driven.org/bitcoin-contracts)
:

> Transactions containing non-standard scripts like these will not be relied
> through the Bitcoin network but if they are included in a block they will be
> accepted by the standard client.

~~~
r32a_
Pay to script hash

[https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Pay_to_script_hash](https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Pay_to_script_hash)

[https://www.soroushjp.com/2014/12/20/bitcoin-multisig-the-
ha...](https://www.soroushjp.com/2014/12/20/bitcoin-multisig-the-hard-way-
understanding-raw-multisignature-bitcoin-transactions/)

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speedplane
If you haven't already, take a look at Stanford's CodeX group. They have a
deep history working with smart contract startups, and are generally very open
to providing a bit of marketing heft and connections in this space. Happy to
provide a contact, email me if you'd like an intro.

~~~
r32a_
Thanks. Will do! :)

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mirekrusin
Not to be confused with ethereum smart contracts where the code can be complex
and encoded logic decides what is allowed, not a intermediary human being.

~~~
tom_mellior
Right. Nothing about the example contract at
[https://stochastic.xyz/contract/5afcd83c45d61c3b7457c7e0](https://stochastic.xyz/contract/5afcd83c45d61c3b7457c7e0)
seems "smart" in the sense that that word is usually used, i.e., a contract
implemented in a piece of machine code.

As far as I can tell, this is basically a job board for contractors who want
to be paid in Bitcoin. There is a bit of innovation with the "proof of funds"
meaning that the contractor can be sure-ish that the money they are meant to
be paid actually exists. There are no further guarantees, and disputes are
handled by humans.

~~~
r32a_
Correct. During a dispute, there is no way around human intervention, unless
A.I evolves to that point.

As it stands we just handle processing of multi-sig contracts

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ulrikrasmussen
How are the contracts expressed? The web page does not seem to provide any
details on that part, which seems rather crucial. Are they written in some
domain specific language?

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r32a_
The contract proposal is entered by the contract owner, in a regular text
field, we also allow you to submit attachments (PDF)

As for the Bitcoin transactions, it is multi-sig 2/2 then a multi-sig 2/3

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coralreef
How the service handles arbitration will be the most interesting thing about
this. Contracts will always be disputable and terms open to interpretation.

The reputation of the business will ultimately depend on how sound and fair
that process is.

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r32a_
We will do our best to resolve any possible dispute, it is in our best
interest that all parties are happy with the outcome of a dispute so they come
back to use the application.

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djangowithme
Centralization :(

~~~
r32a_
We are also exploring to let the contractor and project owner decide who the
mediator is.

Our goal is to make tools and services around Bitcoin that showcase some of
it's features. There is more to Bitcoin than just HODL and trading.

~~~
spookthesunset
So why not just use the existing legal system? What benifit does adding
Satoshi’s Glorious Blockchain to the mess add? A nice thick layer of hype,
speculation and outright fraud?

All code has bugs and unforeseen unhandled corner cases. When code is law, all
bugs and unhandled cases become law too. Do you want your law to veer into
unhandled territory because your developers didn’t consider some random edge
case?

Ergo, smart contracts are a completely broken idea. Sorry.

~~~
r32a_
This application doesn't make the current legal system obsolete! I don't
envision anyone using Stochastic to do a multi-million dollar contract at
least for the foreseeable future!

We are not doing an ICO, we are not even holding people's Bitcoin we only hold
part of the keys to a contract, how can you consider this application a fraud,
it's currently free to use. We may add paid features later on but it's free
right now.

I agree with you on the topic of code is law can be a bad thing. But it can
also have some positive aspects, like removing trusted 3rd parties! We are
using Bitcoin Script, which unlike Solidity (Ethereum's smart contract
language) it is very dumb, very strict and limited for the exact reason you
stated.

~~~
spookthesunset
If code is not law, how does it remove 3rd parties? Every “code contract” of
any real importance is going to be “exploited” because, again, all code has
bugs and unhandled cases. Meaning a contract for anything real will wind up in
some kind of human-needing state.

Sorry, smart contacts are pretty worthless. The only real use ethereum has is
for creating ICOs, which are all scams. You could argue that ethereum is a
world class platform for running scams. How will this be anything different?
If the language is bastardized so it is not Turing compete and is thus
impossible to build anything complex, what point does it have?

~~~
Kiro
Again, this has nothing to do with the type of smart contracts you are
referring to. There's no code on the blockchain involved. The contract in this
case is an actual contract, a legal document between two parties.

You should actually click the link. It's a job/contract board where you pay
with Bitcoin. The only "smart" part is that you can lock up your funds to show
that the money exist but the actual execution is still centralized and backed
by the existing legal system you talk about.

Not saying the service is good or bad but your rant is off topic!

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r32a_
Example Contract:

[https://stochastic.xyz/contract/5afcd83c45d61c3b7457c7e0](https://stochastic.xyz/contract/5afcd83c45d61c3b7457c7e0)

~~~
realPubkey
So the contract is written in plain text an not even mentions who gets paid
what and when.

Is this system a joke? Not a single judge could decide based on this.

~~~
r32a_
This is an example contract proposal.

Contractors must login to place a bid on this contract with their public key.

Real contracts on the application have very thorough proposals.

This is just a proof of concept.

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grenoire
Wait, is the implication that you are holding the contract's budgeted funds on
an account that belongs to you as a 'verification?'

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Klathmon
I'm not affiliated, and I've only taken a cursory glance at it, but it seems
like a normal multi-sig escrow service.

It's not an account that "belongs to them", but an account that belongs to
multiple people (using multi-sig contracts) so that any single party can't
decide to spend it.

The idea being that if you didn't fulfil the contract, you can't take the
money and run. If I didn't fulfil the contract, I can't prevent you from
taking the money, and if this service goes down, the 2 of us can still decide
who gets the money on our own terms without them.

Basically this idea locks away money in an account "owned" by 3 people, and in
order to send the money somewhere else, 2 of the 3 need to agree on where it's
going.

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swift532
Nice, I'm glad this exists. It would be a great credibility boost if people
could specify a mediator that is not stochastic, and the mediator's identity
was clearly displayed in the UI.

P.S.

You have some small errors in the "Security first" section:

    
    
      No Bitcoins of any of contracts will be withheld by Stochastic.

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r32a_
Thanks for picking that up!

I agree with you, we are exploring allowing law professionals join to become
professional mediators and of course be compensated for their services.

The mediators could be spread around the world and they can even visit
contract locations if it is required. These services already exist but for
large transactions, think international trade.

