

Ask HN: What is wrong with folders? - AhtiK

Google among others keeps claiming that Folder concept is outdated and not a good way for humans to organize things online.<p>Do you see tags/labels/younameit non-nested stickers as a replacement or rather an addition to folders?<p>I don't buy the replacement idea and would love to understand it better as I find tags/labels often more broken than nested folders.<p>Thoughts?
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brudgers
Google is wrong insofar as folders apply to individual humans.

Folders work for an individual because of the vast amount of spatial
processing power in the human brain. We are hardwired to put, get and find
things. The spatial metaphor is useful because manipulation fits so easily
into it. Even the notion of search itself is spatial.

On the other hand, classifying, categorizing and labeling things does not come
as naturally. Imagine how odd it would be for a person to actually label their
toothbrush, washcloth, and showercap "bathroom equipment" rather than simply
placing them in the bathroom.

Although computers allow us to have the same thing in more than one place -
e.g. a single file can be accessed via verbally different but logically
identical references; this does not detract from the spatial metaphor, we
still are able to apply the spatial metaphor of "the file is located here."

I would go further to suggest that Google's continuous SEO woes shows the
problem with accessing information via tags rather than by placement whenever
bad places with good tags rise to the top of results.

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rcbarnes
My theory is that the logic behind such claims is that you can effectively map
all groups of folders' entries using tags derived from every file's original
folder hierarchy, but representing all the possible groups of tagged files in
a hierarchical folder system requires an incredibly fragile and complex system
of symbolic links. Ignoring certain issues with converting folder names to
tags (such as two identically-named folders nested in the same path and
collisions between tag combinations whose paths are a different order of the
same set of folder names), an ideal tagging system is as expressive as any
hierarchical organization and it is capable of numerous additional ways to
slice the data.

In practice, tagging systems seem to be limited by relatively immature
interaction models relative to the far better explored nested structures. For
example: for a given folder in the hierarchy there are often few enough
children to allow easy recognition of a forgotten name whereas tags for non-
empty subsets of a given set of files are hard to suggest meaningfully; nested
folders demand more care beginning with the earliest placement of files but
tagging makes wholly unsustainable conventions perfectly reasonable early on;
sections of nested structures are easy to relocate to a new parent but
changing the related set of tagged files to uniformly substitute comparable
target labels for precisely those obsolete labels is difficult or impossible.

In short, there's a theoretical basis for replacing folders with tags, but the
real-world adoption is severely hampered by grossly incomplete UIs for many
needs previously met by nested folders.

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AhtiK
From this I start thinking that folders will be eventually just replaced with
labels but labels should become nested. Leaving terminology aside nested label
becomes just a folder that can be assigned to multiple nodes. Which in Linux
filesystems is called hard linking folders.

I just noticed that gmail has moved from simple Labels to nested Labels! Now
you can create sublabels with seemingly unlimited depth.

Nesting structural aspects/sublabeling has become inevitable for gmail so
hopefully UX aspects of working with nested labels becomes more standard.

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AntonSafonov
Folders die immediately when you need one more way to classify your files.
E.g. you have photos grouped by date, but want to add genre or group by people
on the photo. The same with books - you can have them in one big list, because
very often you can't really select the primary system for categorization,
since one book may cover many different topics, so you may want to have tags
for every major topic, and then also by year and by author. Plus some tag to
mark books you've already read or planning to read.

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imeikas
It's outdated only if you want to really push good search. At some point you
will have so many tags, that you'd like to tag tags.

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AhtiK
I guess it also somewhat resembles with GMail not having tree threads.

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david927
The folder concept was already outdated when it was conceived. First, unlike
the physical world, we don't have to have one place for things (e.g. a sock
drawer). We can have separate ways to access the same thing. If you think
about it, tags/labels are just folders, but so that you can place the same
thing in multiple folders.

But more, the future is to have a fast expanse of metadata, most of it
computer generated, and access content based on queries of that.

