
Hidden Cameras in AirBnBs - tosh
https://twitter.com/textfiles/status/935305053258125312
======
bastawhiz
To everyone in this thread arguing that it's "your own house," it's worth
noting that Airbnb requires all cameras to be disclosed to guests, and cameras
are forbidden in private areas of the property.

[https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnb-s-
ru...](https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnb-s-rules-about-
electronic-surveillance-devices-in-listings)

"Legal gray area" or not, it's not allowed by Airbnb.

~~~
TAForObvReasons
Even if it's technically not allowed, AirBnB is not proactively enforcing the
ToS by checking the properties prior to rental. Without a legal framework for
prosecution, the most we can realistically expect is a refund to the consumer
and banishment of the property owner.

~~~
bastawhiz
Does it matter? I don't expect someone from corporate to be regularly sweeping
my Motel 6 room for hidden cameras. That doesn't mean I don't have an
expectation of privacy or that Motel 6 has no responsibility to protect that
expectation. If there's no legal recourse where I'm staying, I'd expect to be
reasonably compensated for any trouble, which it sounds like is happening.

~~~
Naritai
You actually do. An employee of Motel 6 (the housekeeper) sweeps your Motel 6
room every single day, or at least between stays. Furthermore the onsite
management is explicitly expected to enforce corporate regulations. Yet no
ABNB employee comes anywhere near your 'rental', and there exists framework
for enforcing ABNB policy beyond the good-will of the 'hosts'.

~~~
bastawhiz
If the motel housekeeping or management is the one planting the camera, then I
don't see how this is any different than case with Airbnb. Airbnb hosts are
explicitly expected to follow the terms of service, just as hotel management
is expected to follow corporate policy.

Plus, the whole point of a hidden camera is that it's hidden. If anything, it
would be far harder to find a hidden camera as the number of rooms to search
increases.

~~~
Naritai
If the motel housekeeping or management is the one planting the camera, then
the corporation will be held account. On the other hand, if a host plants the
camera, AirBNB's language makes it clear that there is no accountability or
responsibility on AirBNB's part. So the incentives to actually enforce that
policy are entirely different.

------
nakedrobot2
As I work in hardware / cameras and I've done online sourcing of chinese
goods, my email has been collectively added to more and more companies'
mailing lists. I get spam for spy cameras all the time. Tissue boxes are
popular, clocks, clock radios:

Talitor seems to have plenty of various types of hidden cameras:
[http://www.talitor.com/](http://www.talitor.com/)

[http://www.talitor.com/products/DVR/CH0721w/page_CH0721w.htm](http://www.talitor.com/products/DVR/CH0721w/page_CH0721w.htm)

[https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Wireless-Table-Clock-
Camera-...](https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Wireless-Table-Clock-
Camera-1080P-720P-Mini-Wifi-IP-Clock-Camera-Alarming-Setting-IR-Night-
Vision/32838090757.html)

[https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Table-Clock-Camera-Alarm-
Set...](https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Table-Clock-Camera-Alarm-
Setting-720P-HD-H-264-Mini-Camera-IR-Night-Vision-Wifi-IP/32841142584.html)

~~~
jstarfish
Hidden cameras are a regular staple of Japanese crime news. They hide cameras
in literally anything. Inside smoke detectors and back-of-stall-door
coathangers are two of the more nefarious ones I've seen.

------
Finnucane
Operators of unregulated flophouses engage in shady, unethical practices?
Color me shocked.

~~~
icebraining
_unregulated_

They're not unregulated everywhere, you know. Short-term house rentals were
not exactly invented yesterday.

------
falcolas
Devil's advocate:

The use of cameras can help prosecute and provide proof to back up destruction
claims - something airbnb providers probably run up against regularly.

And given the legal grey area airbnb hosts exist in, it's probably not
explicitly illegal, since they're filming their own property.

Non-devil's advocate:

Creepy as hell. Especially since there's only a camera in the bedroom.

~~~
tantalor
> they're filming their own property

What? No. Guests have reasonable expectation of privacy, same as hotels.

~~~
TAForObvReasons
AirBnB is explicitly hiding in a gray area. The same hotel protections do not
necessarily extend to having a friend over at your house (which is closer to
the legal interpretation AirBnB prefers) You are legally permitted to put up
cameras in your own house, and it's a common practice to set up "nanny cams"
when leaving the house to a babysitter

~~~
larrik
I'm pretty sure secretly filming your guest's bedroom is also covered by
existing laws, even without the rental.

~~~
BearGoesChirp
There is also possibility the existing laws take into account intent. Filming
with a nanny cam that is visible (even if you don't call it out) to protect
your kid is allowed. Filming with a hidden cam for prurient reasons is
illegal. Proving intent would be case by case and up to a prosecutor/court.

------
elboru
Here is another report on Twitter about a similar case, it seems like it
didn't get the required attention at the time:

[https://twitter.com/goodyerin/status/859119557654523906](https://twitter.com/goodyerin/status/859119557654523906)

------
dannyw
This should be a criminal offence with jail time; not a refund.

~~~
sjtgraham
This is a criminal offence in the UK, providing intent can be proven.
[https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/67](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/67)

~~~
tomp
"I'm sorry judge, I really didn't know! How could have I known that my cheap
motion detector sold from China had an embedded spy cam?! When I was
installing it, I just wanted to plug in all the cables and the internet plug
was the only one that fit, computers are meant to be user-friendly like
this..."

~~~
maxerickson
Are UK judges _that_ credulous?

~~~
Silhouette
UK judges are generally very reasonable in my experience (though I should
acknowledge that my experience is limited to being an observer or witness in a
small number of cases).

If something really does seem like an honest mistake, they may take that into
account when passing a sentence.

On the other hand, if someone not only did something bad but then the judge
thinks they tried to cover it up even in court, that is likely to count
against them, possibly heavily.

~~~
maxerickson
Right, the other poster's story is along the same lines as someone claiming
that they like to shadowbox in the street when they get drunk.

------
adrianN
In Germany it is illegal to own or sell hidden cameras.

~~~
nacs
How are "hidden" cameras defined?

There's a lot of devices including smartphones that have tiny, almost
invisible-to-the-naked-eye pin-hole cameras. Do those count? If I want to have
a hidden cam to watch my birdfeeder, is that illegal?

~~~
adrianN
If you can read German:
[https://dejure.org/gesetze/TKG/90.html](https://dejure.org/gesetze/TKG/90.html)

Basically, cameras that appear to be everyday objects and are particularly
suited for recording non-public locations without those being recorded being
aware of the fact.

IANAL, but because Smartphones are expected to have some recording device they
may be okay, a hidden camera to watch your bird feeder seems more of a grey
area because it can also be used to record humans.

------
0xcafecafe
As the reply in the thread below the main tweet mentions, similar problems
exist in hotels as well. Probably there is a market for making a simple and
affordable "bug detector" which we can carry?

~~~
nl
That's a thing:
[http://www.dx.com/s/bug+detector?cateId=0&cateName=All%20Cat...](http://www.dx.com/s/bug+detector?cateId=0&cateName=All%20Categories)

(Not a recommendation - haven't tried any of these)

~~~
zellyn
Would any of those have found this (non-wireless) camera?

~~~
alkonaut
If it's active IR then it's pretty easy to find using a detector. If it's a
passive optical device with a wired connection, then you can't find it with a
detector that wouldn't also find a ton of other signal cables.

It's then probably easier to find a camera by looking in the network rather
than physically. The problem with that is you can only find it when it's
transmitting and not if it's sleeping (unless it happens to also have a public
endpoint that's always open).

------
golergka
Key detail:

> He left at 3am, reported, host is suspended, colleague got refund.

Airbnb can't check everything, but at least they respond in a good and timely
manner.

~~~
1024core
I once ended up in an AirBnB that had large cockroaches that came out at night
(and landed on the bed, freaking my wife out). Called AirBnB at 2AM, they
asked for proof (sent them a video). Finally, at 5AM I told them that we were
leaving.

They just cancelled the reservation, giving us no chance to leave a review.
AFAIK, that host is still renting out her cockroach-riddled place in Oahu.

~~~
goodcanadian
I've lived in Hawaii. Unfortunately, there is not a lot you can do about the
cockroaches. You can keep things as clean as possible, but there will always
be a few. Especially, after it rains, they tend to come indoors where it is
dry. I would just try to smash them, so they didn't start breeding in my
house.

EDIT: I did not witness your Airbnb, of course; it is entirely possible that
the place was infested. I was just put in mind of a friend who freaked out
when she saw one single cockroach and told us our place was infested.

~~~
1024core
The place was at fault. There were crumbs in the edges of the floor in the
kitchen and other nooks and crannies. If you don't want insects infesting your
place, you should keep it clean and not feed them. I stayed in other AirBnBs
too, and never saw cockroaches that size and in those numbers.

------
malloryerik
In a separate incident, Korean tourists in Fukuoka, Japan found hidden cameras
in their AirBnB.

That said, AirBnB seems like a great example of a business that many would
have thought impossible because of various kinds of social risks -- sexual
assault, theft, etc. -- yet, with care taken, human decency prevails.

~~~
s0rce
I'm not really sure an AirBnB would be any less safe then a previous small
boutique licensed private hotel/bnb, these also operated out of peoples homes
or even larger hotels for that matter. Basically anyone can gain access to a
hotel and wait for your to leave your room and break in or assault you as you
enter/exit.

At least with AirBnB you can leave reviews that are easily read by potential
future guests.

------
brndnmtthws
An interesting thought exercise is to think about how much of your life is now
being spent under surveillance. Not only all the cameras everywhere, but also
Gmail, Facebook, and whatever else you might use. Maybe George Orwell's
predictions aren't too far off.

~~~
Silhouette
_Not only all the cameras everywhere, but also Gmail, Facebook, and whatever
else you might use._

Personally, I believe a greater concern is the things _other people_ are
using.

If I choose to use Google or Facebook services or to carry a smartphone loaded
with sensors and networking and spyware, that's down to me. There are plenty
of valid concerns about transparency, but at least I have the option to not
participate at all.

On the other hand, I have no control over whether someone on the next table
over at a restaurant chooses to carry a smartphone that has some sort of
always-observing technology built in, nor do I get any warning if they are
doing so and my dinner conversation that would normally be reasonably private
is being picked up by a mic and transmitted to the mothership.

Likewise, if I send an email to someone, while it has never been a 100% secure
medium, it used to be the case that it was unlikely any third parties would
see the message unless it was a system admin dealing with some sort of
problem. Today a significant number of recipients are using a service like
Google's to handle their mail, but possibly hidden behind their own domains
and identity/branding. Consequently, those big mail services may in practice
have access to a large amount of the email I have sent and may be processing
it for all kinds of reasons without my knowledge or consent.

Same goes for services like social networks when they do things like uploading
someone's whole address book from their phone after their app is installed.
Now it's not just my friend or business contact who has my details, it's a
social network, and they can associate those details with everyone else
involved as well and start building up a detailed profile about me, again
without my having any sort of direct relationship with them and without my
knowledge or consent.

------
tosh
I posted this not because of AirBnB and rather as a good example to show how
low the barrier for surveillance through hardware (& software) is by now.

A few years ago this would have been quite expensive and not easy to do.

------
blauditore
FWIW, hidden cams might not even have been installed by the host, but by a
previous guest. On the other hand, the host would probably notice unless it's
really well-hidden, unlike this one here.

------
snvzz
>refund

This is pretty severe.

Don't get them get away with it. Sue.

~~~
bryanlarsen
How about getting the police involved? My guess is that this is a felony.

~~~
wlll
ISTR from reading the twitter threads they did call the cops.

------
stevekemp
Also been reported elsewhere recently:

[http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-
advice/airbnb-h...](http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-
advice/airbnb-hidden-camera-couple-bedroom-florida-longboat-key-video-
voyeurism-a7994071.html)

------
Cenk
I guess disconnecting the apartment’s wifi could prevent the camera from
transmitting anything?

~~~
icebraining
Could still record locally for later access, though.

~~~
Cenk
True. Any other recommendations? Disconnect the electricity? Scan the network
to find any devices that look weird?

~~~
icebraining
Cheap cameras can record to SD cards, so the network doesn't necessarily help.
I'd say disconnecting the electricity would probably work, but makes it a bit
hard to use the house, no?

My suggestion would be to assume you might be being filmed, rather than assume
you can avoid it.

~~~
nathan_long
> assume you might be being filmed

If that's the assumption, my response would be to never stay in an AirBnB.
What good is a house you're not comfortable changing or showering in, much
less having sex?

~~~
pavel_lishin
Might as well up the paranoia level one click and never stay in a hotel,
either.

~~~
nathan_long
Maybe my response was too paranoid. But certainly a well-known hotel chain has
more to lose by misbehavior and bad publicity than an individual renting out
their house does.

~~~
monort
Usually hidden cameras are installed in hotels not by owners, but by staff.

------
3pt14159
How does one scan for these? I stay in AirBnbs all the time.

~~~
r3bl
I would start scanning a local network to see if there's any devices that I
can't identify. If there are, I would try to trace them down, and, if
unsuccessful, turn the router off and switch to mobile hotspot.

This is under the assumption that the cameras don't store the data locally,
which they probably do. In that case, I don't have any ideas what to do if you
can spot them on the local network but can't trace them down physically.

~~~
3pt14159
Upvoted, but is there not some sort of device I could buy to find electronics?
I literally have spent 85% of the past half year in AirBnbs and I hate
worrying about this.

------
matz1
Some way to improve this : make the camera difficult to access by the guest.
Remove all label or marking indicating its a camera.

------
orblivion
Tweet the address so he's an embarrassment to his neighbors. Maybe that'll
deter some people.

~~~
orblivion
I'm unexpectedly being downvoted. In case it's because I was misunderstood, I
meant that people such as this tweeter should "name and shame" the hosts who
do this, so that future hosts are afraid to do it.

------
digitalneal
Its a two way street. I had friends put an annoyatron in an airbnb they were
staying in and knew I was going to stay in a few days later. So its not just
the hosts you have to worry about...

------
mljungblad
This is one of the reasons we created Point which we just released the 2nd
generation of on Kickstarter:
[https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/minut/pointthe-
friendly...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/minut/pointthe-friendly-
home-alarm)

~~~
VectorLock
You created Point to find hidden cameras in AirBNBs?

I mean nice try pumping your product, but come on.

~~~
mljungblad
One of the reasons I think we've seen this over and over is due to lack of
alternatives to monitor homes in a non-invasive way. Hosts naturally care
about their apartments when they rent out. And hiding a camera is, judging
from many comments here and Airbnb, not the right way.

But yes, you're right. I'm definitely pumping our own product :)

