
Are Flat Earthers Being Serious? - TakakiTohno
https://www.livescience.com/24310-flat-earth-belief.html
======
pizza234
I think treating flat earth theory as a rational argument to debunk is
appealing, but ultimately unproductive.

There was an interesting article some time ago:
[https://jameshfisher.com/2019/01/20/my-parents-are-flat-
eart...](https://jameshfisher.com/2019/01/20/my-parents-are-flat-earthers),
which casted the human perspective on the problem: at the root, believing a
conspiracy theory gives self-importance to the believer, and it's, in a way,
"fun".

Considering this perspective, this phenomenon belongs to the class of problems
whose easy angle of attack is the technical (rational, in this case), and the
difficult one is the human.

I'd argue that if one thinks that a flat earther is metaphorically a brick
wall, and consequently a fool, opposing technical arguments against it is
equally as foolish. It's actually the other side of the coin: yelling
arguments to a wall is the mirrored human problem, in my opinion.

In conclusion, I think it would be more productive to think more about why
this belief is appealing to people (and why it's spreading), rather than
proving it's false.

~~~
dmos62
Your point about this being a human problem above all is spot on, and I really
enjoyed how you phrased your point about mirror problems.

My impression of the flat earth theorists or enthusiasts is that it's a
reaction to a sense of oppression (similarly to what another top level comment
said). An assertion of power by negating a "common" truth. I like this
explanation because I can relate to it quite well. The ditch the mind jumps
into is that it's not that your problems are too difficult for you, but that
the whole setup (context that formulates the problem) is a lie. Combine that
with a profound distrust of the mainstream, some naivete and some luck, and
you'll get flat earth theory.

~~~
mrfusion
I call them a “get rich quick” scheme but for intelligence.

Think about it. You watch a couple videos and now you’re smarter than everyone
you know. (Or you feel that way)

I still wish I had a way to counter it.

------
whatl3y
I enjoyed the Netflix documentary Behind the Curve which highlights several of
the big people in this community. A lot of the documentary is a comical subtle
troll, but it sheds light on how the people in this community are alike by
being sort of social outcasts.

They’re brought together not necessarily by a strong belief that the Earth is
flat (though most in the community strongly believe it, or at least pretend
to) but because they were bullied as kids, socially awkward, had a hard time
making and keeping friends, etc. From this angle I absolutely see how strong a
connection these people might have to others in this community and why it
would be hard to say “screw you only friends that I’ve ever had, your theories
don’t make scientific sense”. They might lose the only friends they ever had.

This somewhat reminds me of the current state of politics. Why counter even a
single belief, value, etc. that your echochamber has when they’re probably
friends of yours and you know it could change your relationship for the worse
(even though I think it’s ridiculous that questioning a political opinion with
a well thought out, logically crafted counter opinion could ruin a
relationship).

~~~
brlewis
> I think it’s ridiculous that questioning a political opinion with a well
> thought out, logically crafted counter opinion could ruin a relationship

People use a simplified mental model of your beliefs. You're either on one
side or the other. Your argument flips you around to the other side. This is a
problem. My hope is that this problem can be countered by explicitly labeling
points of agreement, and by being very specific about points of disagreement.

This is what my project HowTruthful facilitates. This article caught my
attention because flat earth was the issue I used in
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXvU1h44jVw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXvU1h44jVw)
the introductory video. About 90 seconds in, I talk about how a presentation
format that shows both agreement and disagreement helps preserve friendship.

~~~
was8309
Thank you, HowTruthful looks great, I hope sites like these become very
common, not only to help preserve friendships, but to help distilled
arguments, and ultimately clarify what we believe

------
spodek
The site is down so I haven't read it, but I suspect many flat earthers are
responding to people who have no better reason to believe the Earth is round
but lord over them condescendingly.

When I ask my university classes for first-hand evidence that the Earth is
round, not allowing photographs since we can easily doctor them, nearly zero
can answer. Some get angry. Many can't conceive of what might make evidence.
Most just insist that's what everyone knows and to suggest otherwise suggests
stupidity, ignorance, or support for politics they oppose.

Yet rarely can one cite meaningful evidence they've seen or collected, or that
others have seen or collected, to show the Earth's shape. They believe what
everyone tells them -- effectively majority opinion. How is their believing
the Earth is round any different than someone else believing the Earth is
flat?

~~~
Erlich_Bachman
Most people believe that airplanes are aluminum machines with engines that fly
due to some aerodynamic physics. Then there is a minority living in a tribe
somewhere doing the cargo cult thing and believing that airplanes are gods
coming down from the sky because they have built a pretty enough altar, to
give them food and treats. And yet you don't question everyone's belief about
planes, even though very few people can explain how actually literal tons of
aluminum and gas can get up in the sky.

Holding a minority opinion, believing in something that very few people do
doesn't automatically make that belief or idea worth studying. There are many
factors and you have only listed "minority/majority opinion" as one. I would
argue it is not enough to spark a meaningful conversation. It's not enough to
say "I don't believe the same way as majority of people" to make it
interesting to discuss and construct complex expensive arguments about.

------
rusk
This reminds of David Icke, and his whole theory that extra terrestrial lizard
people are running everything. You might be tempted to think this is some sort
of metaphor, and in that light, perhaps it makes some amount of sense. But no,
he means _actual_ lizard people.

~~~
teddyh
Regarding “Lizard people”, there might be an explanation for the phenomenon:

[http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=8600](http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=8600)

------
artemonster
Its hard to enjoy the content when the website: 1) starts autoplaying frickin
ads WITH SOUND; 2) asks for notification pop-up; 3) adds additional pop-up for
subscribtion; ALL IN PARALLEL. wtf is happening to the internet?

~~~
alpaca128
I share your worries about websites nowadays, but I can really recommend
installing the uBlock Origin plugin and checking all boxes in the settings;
since I did that I've seen zero popups or ads, including on this site.

~~~
artemonster
I think adblockers is a bandaid-on-a-gunshot solution and will be a rat-race
between advertisers trying to avoid blockage and blockers getting more
sophisticated, where in the end the end user would suffer most.

------
miguelmota
A large portion of flat Earthers are serious conspiracy theorist who don’t
believe in things like the moon landing ever happening and are very anti-
government who refuse to believe anything coming from the government and NASA
simply because they’re the government. The flat earth society is also a cult
that people join to feel like they’re a part of something so they accept to go
along with the story and believing in it to remain accepted. There’s a
documentary on Netflix called “Behind the Curve” which was kind of
interesting.

~~~
ncmncm
What the article _actually says_ is that flat-earthers do not typically
subscribe to other conspiracy theories and UFO / ESP / ghosts cults. This is
considered a surprising fact, worthy of explanation independently of the whole
flat-earth delusion.

------
ourmandave
Flat Earthers and their ilk are easy to joke about.

But it stops being funny really fast when a Science Denier becomes a policy
maker.

~~~
blaser-waffle
Indeed. Politicians are elected by people to enact their agenda and views.
Enough dumb people will vote in dumb politicians.

------
strategarius
I'm still sure it's a some kind of joke that last longer than necessary, or
mass trolling. I'm probably being too optimistic about people's mind in 21th
century

~~~
krapp
I've just decided to give everyone the benefit of the doubt on the internet,
it's much easier. If someone claims to be a flat earther, or believes some
other patent nonsense, I'll assume they're sincere. If someone makes racist
comments, I'll assume they're sincerely a racist.

The intent of trolls is to be perceived in a certain way, so give them what
they want and let them suffer the consequences.

------
gsich
[https://twitter.com/FlatEarthOrg/status/935938769831845888](https://twitter.com/FlatEarthOrg/status/935938769831845888)

At least they seem to be trolling.

------
mrfusion
I have a friend who believes this and I can’t seem to debunk it for him.

Ships get too small to see before the bottom disappears on the horizon. I
can’t explain to him why he can see things like bridges that should be below
the horizon.

I think the simplest proof would be that you see farther when you go higher.
On a flat earth you could see tall things from any height.

------
shirak_untel
I'm curious what they think guarded this secret before NASA

------
uvictor
yes, then there are people like me trolling those idiots. I was surprised how
many undergrad's can't answer some tricky scientific questions. I think it's
because they are taught to remember facts but many fail to understand the
underlying logic in them.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Yes Feynman wrote of teaching science to college students (in Brasil?). They
could parrot back the textbook, but not recognize the phenomena of light
polarization described _immediately after reading its description_

------
a_imho
Betteridge Law seems to not apply in this case.

Anyway, are people engaging with flat Earthers being serious? Which is worse,
being part of a cult X or complaining about X?

~~~
blaser-waffle
IF you don't refer to them with pejoratives then people might think they have
legitimate points.

The rube demographic isn't shrinking anytime soon.

------
mito88
come join the flat earth Society.

we have member all over the globe... or plank..

------
mscasts
People like to think we humans are intelligent and smart, but people like that
really shows that we are mostly a pack of stupid apes.

That's why I am on team AI.

~~~
bovermyer
I'm in the process of reading _Sapiens_ by Yuval Noah Harari for the first
time. In it, he writes about how Sapiens' major development over other human
species was the ability to believe fiction. For context, he defines fiction as
any concept not observable by the senses, and doesn't equate fiction with
falsehood. Rather, he seems to mean abstraction.

Assuming this to be the case, our ability to abstract is what is responsible
for the creation of things like government, the arts, the sciences, and
basically all of our culture and knowledge.

Is it surprising that that ability to abstract could be taken too far among
certain groups of people? Conspiracy theory is like a disease, not an inherent
trait of humanity.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Yes! Abstraction allows for law, art, science.

Also religion, witchcraft, the lottery, nationalism, politics.

