
Why we're suing the CIA - morisy
https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2014/jun/11/why-were-suing-cia/
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te_platt
As bad as governmental abuses can be in the U.S. I find it somewhat comforting
that suing the CIA doesn't mean some people are going to start disappearing.
I'm guessing not too many Russians sued the KGB.

~~~
grecy
It's a shame you would compare a Developed country, supposedly one of the
best, with one that's knows to be not so good.

It's like comparing your sports team to one that consistently finishes low on
the ladder - your team will always look good, even when they are far from the
top.

If you want a comparison that will lead to improvement, compare your country
to those known to have excellent human rights and freedom of information track
records.

~~~
logfromblammo
Let's just go with Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark for now, with New
Zealand and Singapore thrown in to prove that you don't have to be
Scandinavian to have an uncorrupted government.

~~~
ZenPro
Sweden? The country trying to illegally force EU countries to extradite Julian
Assange in clear violation of EU law?[1]

That Sweden?

[1][http://cjicl.org.uk/2012/06/20/assange-v-swedish-
prosecution...](http://cjicl.org.uk/2012/06/20/assange-v-swedish-prosecution-
authority-the-misapplication-of-european-and-international-law-by-the-uk-
supreme-court-part-i-2/)

I assume you are ignoring the corruption detailed in

[http://www.business-anti-corruption.com/media/3831417/TI-
Sve...](http://www.business-anti-corruption.com/media/3831417/TI-
Sverige_ENIS_studie-2.pdf)

~~~
logfromblammo
I do not claim that those governments are not in any way corrupt. They are
simply the least corrupt of an inherently corruptible tradition.

The point is that we should be following our hopes rather than fleeing from
our fears. Comparing yourself to the worst of your peers and patting yourself
on the back because you are still somewhat better is blinding yourself to the
absolutely unacceptable backsliding that has been occurring. Even comparing
yourself to the best of your peers and dreaming about surpassing them is not
enough. The ultimate, unattainable goal is zero corruption and perfect
transparency. Effort required increases asymptotically as we approach that
limit.

So it would seem that the only way to avoid having corruption in your
government is to not have one at all.

~~~
gdewilde
We could have made the participatory government 20 years ago.

I always explain it like this (try to):

Our ancestors did not have Internet, direct participation was not possible. We
therefore cant expect those ancestors of ours to have seriously considered it
- at any stage. Arguably, before the Internet, everyone did his best to
participate as much as they could. The new ingredient our generation
introduced is for voters not to have influence on par with the technical
possibilities.

If we would be overly modest we could allow that single vote to be changed
when the voter wants to change it. If the voter cant change his vote the
election program is not legally binding. One can say whatever he likes to get
elected and enjoy 4 whole years without any consequences.

Technically we should be participating in the debate about specific issues at
hand. Our officials would have little to do beyond the organization of that
information (a feat easily automated) If we can do social networks and we can
do flash trading then we need very little beyond a tech team and a few
symbolic figure heads to make a kick ass democracy.

We can do considerably more than vote 1 time, ideas from citizens are a type
of resource, value waiting to be extracted. Extraction will help it grow
faster. Clearly we are missing out on incalculable riches, just sitting there,
expiring while waiting for exploitation.

~~~
logfromblammo
It would be more accurate to say that direct participation was not scalable
past a certain population size.

But now, well... Nintendo even made a free Wii amusement called "Everybody
Votes Channel". If people are willing to waste time voting on silly things
just to see what other people in their tribe and around the world selected,
they can certainly vote on things that actually matter to them, like taxes and
laws.

The difficult problem nowadays is not the technical ability to get everyone
participating, but how to avoid the pitfalls of democracy, such as an
arbitrary majority tyrannizing an arbitrary minority, or a focused minority
advancing a specific agenda over a relatively apathetic majority.

There would almost have to be a submission petition with a certain number of
supporters, an initial 50% majority of those who care to vote to trigger
spending development resources on the issue, then a funding round, where
supporters have to supply the required budget directly, and finally a
ratification round, where a supermajority, perhaps 67% of all possible voters,
where non-voters automatically vote to reject, determines whether to proceed
to implementation or not.

But that's all irrelevant detail when it is likely that those who currently
hold power would use it to prevent a new system from taking it away from them.
The status quo likes where it stands now. The system is ripe for disruption,
but it is also quite good at retaliating against existential threats.

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toomuchtodo
MuckRock and the Beacon Reader are also working on uncovering law enforcement
across the country using "Stingray" rouge cell tower equipment:
[http://www.beaconreader.com/projects/the-spy-in-your-
pocket](http://www.beaconreader.com/projects/the-spy-in-your-pocket)

Please chip in $5 if you can towards their goal.

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jacquesm
Recursive FOIA requests. Very neat :) Breadth first or depth first is going to
be their main problem. The plus for the government is that if they lose a
document they now have an off-site backup. Presumably the CIA is not playing
ball because they have their own backups.

What a fantastic project.

~~~
frandroid
In Canada, similar requests had partially liberated the information contained
in the Coordination of Access to Information Requests System that the Federal
Government used to centrally manage ATI requests (our FOIA), so that people
could do this kind of recursive research. The Conservatives disbanded the
database in 2008 in order to remove this resource from being the target of ATI
requests, and make it harder to get information to the public.

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SandersAK
Love these guys! They're doing a Beacon crowdfunding project as we speak -
help em' out! [http://www.beaconreader.com/projects/the-spy-in-your-
pocket](http://www.beaconreader.com/projects/the-spy-in-your-pocket)

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Mizza
Yeah MuckRock! Get 'em!

I use MuckRock to FOIA the CIA quite often, and they are probably the third-
worst agency to deal with (behind the NSA and the US State Department). They
don't even accept FOIA requests via email!

Hopefully, this will lubricate them a little bit.

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ChuckMcM
I really appreciate these guys following through with this. I've benefited
from the information they have set free. That we have to pull it kicking and
screaming out of the bureaucracies is sad.

~~~
viraptor
If it's not very private matter, could you tell us how you benefited from the
information? I'm really curious.

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coldcode
Nice try, but likely nothing will happen. Even if a judge in a moment of
insanity ruled in your favor, the CIA will simply say it's a national secret
or whatever and nothing will change.

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pdenya
"Don't bother trying" \-- great advice.

~~~
cookingrobot
"Don't waste your time on this approach" isn't defeatist, it's saying you'll
get a better outcome with another approach. There are lots of worthless
activities that will change nothing, and a very few that are effective. It's
important to think about how to invest. That said.. It's more helpful to hear
alternate ideas than just "this won't work".

~~~
talkingquickly
I see your point but I think it's still fair comment when the parent isn't
suggesting a better approach, they're just saying "don't use this one".

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stevejyim
yes, you should sue the cia.

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known
"Who's right doesn't matter, who has the power does" \--Thucydides

