

Pepper the Pigs - coffeebite
https://www.pepperthepigs.com

======
MattRogish
I'm in favor of self-defense -- but buying a can of pepper spray and keeping
it in your purse, pocket, glove box, whatever and never training with it is
not likely to be a significant benefit in event of an attack. More likely, it
will harm you more than it helps.

a) If you've never sprayed it before, how do you know how far it goes, the
spray pattern, how much pressure it takes to depress the button, how long it
lasts?

b) pepper spray is indiscriminate - it _will_ get on you, and if you're not
ready for that, it's very possible that you will find yourself completely
helpless, eyes burning, coughing, gasping for breath - all while being
attacked.

This is why law enforcement and the military, before they leave "basic
training", are exposed to a wide variety of agents they expect to meet in the
field, including pepper spray (I went through pepper spray training. Very eye
opening {or closing!} to say the least).

If you are carrying pepper spray, you owe it to yourself to get proper
training that includes being sprayed with it in the face and how to still
defend yourself while under the effects. Otherwise, it's just a potentially
deadly talisman.

<http://www.aaa-safetyfirst.com/pepper-spray-reaction.htm>
[http://www.safariland.com/blog/post/OC-Spray-Training-To-
Be-...](http://www.safariland.com/blog/post/OC-Spray-Training-To-Be-or-Not-to-
Be-Sprayed.aspx)

~~~
evilduck
Having worked in law enforcement, pepper spray is misery. Everyone in the area
gets some exposure, it burns for like 45 minutes at least, it clings to skin
and hair and clothes (and police car seats) and you don't realize it until
your eyes are burning again the next day because you scratched a crevise of
your ear and then later rubbed your eye. Forget wearing contacts for a day or
two. If you get maced (Other irritants gasses besides the pepper spray) all of
your mucus membrane decide the drain all fluids possible and you're coughing
up a storm.

Really, just hope you get tazed instead. Hurts a little more but it's over
_so_ much quicker. Or, if possible, avoid physical confrontations with the
police.

------
untog
While I support the overall idea, the name "Pepper the Pigs" is going to be
very confusing in the USA- 'pigs' is a slang term for a policeman, so my
immediate association was that you want to pepperspray police officers.

~~~
coob
Peppa Pig is also a popular children's cartoon series in the UK.

~~~
untog
Ha, yes. I'm an ex-pat in America and my first thought was "some tie-in for
that show that the bloke from the Chris Moyles show is in".

------
binaryorganic
I'm not sure pepper spray gets to the heart of the issue. We're talking about
something much more ingrained in the culture than simple predators lurking in
some alley, no? Do you have any idea what could happen to a woman that pepper
sprays the wrong man in some parts of the world? We're talking about a place
that still has thousands of cases of bride burning each year
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_burning#In_India>). Not sure how pepper
spray is the first step here.

~~~
tesmar2
Exactly, this feels like a bandaid on a gaping wound. If we are going to spend
our energies, it should be for education/legal change....or getting at the
hearts/minds of the Indian people. The international Justice mission is a
great team of lawyers who fight for such change.

<http://www.ijm.org/>

------
Tichy
I think I've heard self defense experts recommend against pepper spray. Not
sure why - perhaps fumbling around for it in your purse wastes too much
valuable time, and there is the danger of hurting yourself instead of the
attacker?

In any case it seems very naive to me to think the problem could be solved in
such a way. I certainly don't think it is because of pepper spray that we
presumably have less rape incidents in the western world.

~~~
jerf
What's your proposed "non-naive" solution? (And does it leave a window of
decades in some places before it can be feasibly implemented in India, where
vast swathes of the country are still third-world?)

~~~
dragonbonheur
Here it is, Rape-aXe: www.youtube.com/watch?v=9guyVVqHcYo It can be made for
cheap and there is demand for it.

~~~
rauljara
While it's well meaning, that really doesn't sound like a solution.

On the purely practical front: you will never get enough woman wear them. The
most you could hope for is enough woman wearing them so that they have a
deterrent effect on would-be rapists. But if enough people hear about them,
and the rapists know to expect them, what's to stop the rapist from simply
removing it? I would also expect that if the condom functioned as expected, it
would mostly just serve to enrage the rapist and make it more likely for him
to escalate the level of violence.

On a more emotional level: the woman still gets raped. What's more, she has to
ritually insert an object that only works if she does get raped. I can't
imagine that being good for one's psyche.

Which is not to say we shouldn't search for interesting solutions wherever we
can find them. But I'm very skeptical that some gadget is going to solve this
problem.

Protesting and agitating for social change is probably the most effective
route that's available right now. And these women are kind of amazing, though
vigilanteism always raises tough questions:
[http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/02/26/meet-the-
wo...](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/02/26/meet-the-woman-behind-
indias-pink-vigilantes.html)

------
dragonbonheur
Pepper sprays are considered as offensive WEAPONS in some countries and their
possession might be illegal.

~~~
mikeash
This site is specific to India, and a quick search shows that pepper spray is
legal in India. What is the point of your comment?

~~~
dragonbonheur
What is the point of asking me what the point is? OK, if it's legal in India
then it's a good initiative. But I wish more was being done worldwide to
educate men that women aren't their playthings.

~~~
mikeash
To 1) see if I might have missed something and 2) passive-aggressively point
out that your comment was off the mark.

~~~
dragonbonheur
The aggressive part of your passivity is uncalled for. The point of a forum
like HN is discussion. Some post, others respond. Even though mistakes are
made. That's the whole point of society.

Keep cool man.

------
danso
Two problems (IMO):

A. I understand that this is an inspired act sparked by the very recent events
in India...but more explanation needs to be visible in order to make this
organization seem legit. I'm not talking about showing us your registration
and non-profit organization permit, I mean "Kickstarter Pitch" level: I'm just
giving my money to who now (listing a few organizations isn't enough, I need
names of reps to at least be assured you're just not misappropriating their
name)? How is it being spent? What is the purchasing price that you're using?
What are your plans for transparency (i.e. a weekly/monthly report on how many
sprays have been given out).

I realize that last bit may be hard because you're not at that volume-of-
action yet...but this could be slightly mitigated by either securing a decent
donation from a group/benefactor or the organizers themselves making the
initial sizable donation. Yes I guess that sounds a bit entitled ("why can't
you build the distribution site AND purchase the supplies") but if your call
to action is going to berate people for just sitting around on
Facebook...well, you kind of put yourself in the position to set an example,
right?

B) The "Buy a pepper spray" graph just reeks of "white knight syndrome":

> _A can costs Rs. 400. Have enough money to buy one? Do it. If you are a
> dude, buy one for your sister, your partner and every girl you care about
> (which should be every girl you know)._

What if you are not a "dude"? Just hope that, as a female, someone will
purchase pepper sprays for your sister, partner, etc.? Also, not all affected
by the rape problem are girls. Some of them, including the victim at the most
currently famous case, are women. And that last sentence parenthetical is just
patronizing and redundant: if I am the type of dude who would buy pepper spray
for the women in my life, I don't need to be told that I should care about
women, or any fellow human being, for that matter.

Not trying to be overly harsh here. Congrats on you for stepping it up and
trying something out. But if there's resolvable problems (IMO, of course),
might as well think about them now and help the success of your noble mission.

~~~
alanctgardner2
>What if you are not a "dude"?

There is literally nothing in the passage you quote that implies women can't
buy themselves pepper spray. "Have enough money to buy one? Do it." implies
everyone, regardless of gender, should be buying cans to use or distribute.
The parenthetical bit is a little weird, but I assume they mean that it's not
just your close friends and family, no women should ever be raped.

There are issues with the site, and I think you raise some valid points. But
this is just jumping to conclusions, and it muddies the issue a bit.

~~~
danso
"Jumping to conclusions" would be saying that the creators of this site are
afflicted with "white knight syndrome." I'm only saying that this text reads
as if they were, and it's a case of inelegant wording that could (and should)
be fixed.

You're right that it doesn't say that women _can't_ buy it for themselves. But
80% of that phrase is exhorting men to be chivalrous and empower women...the
"hey you guys, be a MAN and help out your girls" just feels off in this
context. That's all.

~~~
alanctgardner2
I think they're mostly elaborating because the call-to-action is less
immediately relevant if you're male. They could add equal text to exhort women
to buy the product, but it would just state what's already implied, "Buy some
pepper spray to defend yourself against attackers".

In a culture where men have more authority and power than women, part of the
responsibility for giving women back control of their lives and bodies rests
with the men who currently wield social status. I think encouraging men to
support their female friends and relatives is arguably more important and
effective than the actual pepper spray, because that's what will create
positive social change.

------
tesmar2
I like this idea, at least as a temporary stop-gap. Long term, more needs to
be done in terms of teaching the men the value of women. That involves a
change of the heart as well as mind.

