
Switching from Gmail to FastMail - masnick
http://www.maxmasnick.com/2013/07/19/fastmail/
======
tehwalrus
American company, American servers, American jurisdiction. Sure _they_ won't
read your email, but the NSA will (just like Gmail.)

Update: hmm, so Opera aren't american? interesting. All the servers are
definitely in the US though:

> _" we have standard servers and a high speed connection in the US."_ \-
> [https://www.fastmail.fm/help/overview_about.html](https://www.fastmail.fm/help/overview_about.html)

~~~
adestefan
Fastmail is owned by Opera a Norwegian company. Nice try though to inject a
completely worthless comment.

~~~
waxjar
Their servers are located in the US according to the article.

~~~
jasonlotito
The GGP started off by saying:

> American company…

Then, noticing the critical error, the GP said:

> Fastmail is owned by Opera a Norwegian company.

Replying to the American company part.

> You said: Their servers are located in the US according to the article.

So, the servers location have nothing to do with whether the company is
American or not. And while that might have a bearing on certain facets of the
topic as a whole, it's meaningless in this context. Basically, what you said
does not change anything.

~~~
untog
_And while that might have a bearing on certain facets of the topic as a
whole_

As in, the _actual_ point, which is that your e-mails are liable to be
searched by the NSA.

~~~
jasonlotito
You mean, not the first point brought up by the GP, was which to say wrongly
that it was an American company?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Fastmail moved servers outside the US, then it
would be in a better position as a non-US company than if it was a US company
with servers outside the US?

Despite what some might believe, where a company operates from is actually
important, regardless of where the servers are hosted.

------
johnpowell
I installed [http://www.iredmail.org/](http://www.iredmail.org/) on a five
buck a month Droplet at DigitalOcean around six months ago. Seems to work
great and I control it. I never use Roundcube. I use IMAP from the built in
Mail.app on OS X. There is even a tutorial to set everything up.

[https://www.digitalocean.com/community/articles/how-to-
insta...](https://www.digitalocean.com/community/articles/how-to-install-
iredmail-on-ubuntu-12-10-x64)

~~~
vermontdevil
What about spam filtering?

~~~
harrytuttle
It uses spamassassin which works pretty well.

------
bowlofpetunias
> their servers are in New York

For us as a European business, that's a dealbreaker. It's not that we are
completely paranoid and migrating off of American systems in a big hurry, but
moving forward, not in the US and not owned by an American company is a
requirement for any new service we use.

Even if we didn't care, we have to take into account our clients, and "no data
under US control" has become not just a selling point, but a strict condition
for many projects.

This was already very much the case before the PRISM scandal, and it's only
going to get worse now.

~~~
nly
You're naive if you think hosting in Europe means you're necessarily any
safer.

~~~
tomp
For (European) businesses, it's not the issue of safety, but the issue of
compliance. If I (EU citizen) have personal data with EU company that stores
said data on US-controlled servers, they are potentially viable for breach of
data-protection laws. Since these laws are EU laws, it wouldn't be a problem
if EU governments would read this data, since that's governed by the same set
of laws.

------
davidcollantes
The main problem with abandoning Google is all the services associated with
it, not only mail. And paid Gmail continues to offer mobile sync, which
FastMail does not.

Yet, FastMail looks quite nice.

~~~
ryanmcbride
Damn, I was about to sign up until I read this. I have to handle a lot of my
work from my phone, and if it doesn't work well then I don't think it would be
too useful for me.

Do you know if there's any plan for them to release an android app that would
let my phone sync?

And I do realize the irony in trying to cut out google while using an android
phone.

~~~
decode
> Do you know if there's any plan for them to release an android app that
> would let my phone sync?

I use K-9 Mail on Android with Fastmail. They both support IMAP IDLE, so you
get immediate push notifications of new messages.

~~~
brightsize
Ditto here, K-9 + FM works as well as any desktop IMAP client that I have.

------
rocky1138
Am I the only one here that doesn't care about Gmail ads? I don't even notice
them.

~~~
masnick
My point is that if you don't like Gmail ads, you should investigate switching
to something else. I feel like many people are uncomfortable with the ads but
might feel locked in.

I actually don't care that Google is machine-reading email to serve ads (see
[http://www.maxmasnick.com/2012/02/12/gmail_paranoia/](http://www.maxmasnick.com/2012/02/12/gmail_paranoia/)),
but I do care about polluting the interface with ads that look like email for
the same reason I don't like the new compose interface. Both make the
interface worse, and email is bad enough as it is without bad UI.

~~~
warcode
Or just, you know, block the ads for a fraction of the effort.

~~~
masnick
With what? I _do_ care about running random plugins in my browser that update
in the background. There's nothing stopping a malicious plugin from scraping
stuff out of your email, and I feel like _that_ is a legitimate security
concern!

~~~
Karunamon
>I _do_ care about running random plugins in my browser that update in the
background.

Then turn that function off [1]. There's no more security threat from well-
known browser plugins from Mozilla's site than well-known packages from your
OS's apt repo. And both are open source.

[1] [http://imgur.com/tivq9o8](http://imgur.com/tivq9o8)

------
dalks
This is a false dichotomy and an unfair one. Firstly, fastmail is a paid
product that may show you _graphic_ ads if you are using their free tier.
([https://www.fastmail.fm/help/advertising_web_interface_ads.h...](https://www.fastmail.fm/help/advertising_web_interface_ads.html))

To those who are arguing about advertisements not showing up in the Fastmail's
paid tiers should also realize that there is the Google Apps for Business
accounts, where you don't see ads. It also beats the popular 'if you are
paying you are the product meme'.

~~~
masnick
There is no longer a free tier for FastMail.

As I mention in my post, Google Apps is a lot of overhead for just email.
There are additional complexities with switching from gmail to google apps
because of the integration with all other google services.

If someone was interested in switching from gmail to a paid service, I would
argue that FastMail may be a better choice than Google Apps.

------
pilif
_> MailMate and it's interesting thread hierarchy view._

How times change. This is how message threading has always worked before we
got gmail and Mail.app which I have resisted switching to for years because
the just didn't do threading "right".

And now get off my lawn :-)

~~~
masnick
So I've been told :)

I've been using email since like 1996 but had never seen that kind of thread
hierarchy display until I used MailMate. I can't believe all these email
clients have been holding out on me!

------
sheri
I'm suitably impressed that Fastmail has been around since 1999. At first
glance I would have dismissed it as a service which I wouldn't expect to
outlive Gmail (and thus be leery about moving to it). It still may not outlive
Gmail, but its history seems that its been pretty solid so far.

~~~
nly
They were responding to Gmail, by working on a more modern AJAXy web
interface, even before Opera bought them.

I remember being concerned about the buyout, but it seems it's been nothing
but good for them. Opera are a great company.

------
johngalt
Tried fastmail and wasn't impressed. Rackspace email is a great choice. Its
cheap and fast. Outages are rare. Has active sync support and IMAP push works
on android/iPhone.

Rackspace also allows you to run exchange mailboxes alongside IMAP if you have
a few users who are still tied to outlook.

~~~
monkey26
How's the Rackspace web UI?

~~~
johngalt
No complaints. It's well organized and tends to follow a clear and minimalist
design. Their status page follows a similar theme.

[http://status.apps.rackspace.com/](http://status.apps.rackspace.com/)

------
maqr
I just disabled the 'promotions' tab, and it also disabled it on my android
client. If they start sneaking ads in as real email, I'm gone. If I can
disable the ads, I'll probably hang out for a bit longer, but it's time to
start evaluating alternatives.

~~~
dalks
It's not an email.

~~~
sp332
There's a screenshot going around that shows ads in the gmail interface among
the actual emails (not off to the side like they are now).

------
tippytop
Snowden used lavabit.com, which is located in the US (and probably being
scrutinized a bit more than usual these days).

I think it's more important to diversify services than to insist on airtight
alternatives. My mail is not terribly exciting, but when combined with the
rest of my searches, visited webpages [1], chats, news reading habits, social
network connections, and phone location, all housed under Google's roof, it
seems like I'm making it easier to piece together my life [2]. At least make
it a little difficult by having to go to separate companies with court orders.

[1] And web developers contribute to the surveillance by installing analytics
code.

[2] That of course is the Google AI wet dream, moar data.

~~~
matthewdavis
>Snowden used lavabit.com, which is located in the US (and probably being
scrutinized a bit more than usual these days).

Any proof to this? And, no, twitter is not a source of record.

~~~
tujv
[http://english.ruvr.ru/news/2013_07_12/Snowdens-letter-to-
hu...](http://english.ruvr.ru/news/2013_07_12/Snowdens-letter-to-human-rights-
activists-made-public-3751/)

------
maaaats
For me, it's not that I'm afraid of GMail removing IMAP, it's that Gmail IMAP
works really, really bad. For an email-client to work well with Gmail, it has
to be tailored to Gmail, and that has given me some issues lately.

For instance, most of my mail is sorted into labels, skipping the inbox. When
using a mail client with IMAP, these labels shows as folders. Deleting the
mail from my client, doesn't delete it from Gmail, only removes the label.
Useless.

~~~
mhurron
Wait, IMAP sucks because you do something in a non-standard way (labels in
GMail) that is exposed over IMAP in the best way it can fake (folder) and it
is IMAP's problem that automagically do what you think it should?

And just for added measure, deleting the label seems to me to be the right
thing to do.

~~~
gcr
OP's point was that one of IMAP's weakenesses is that it provides no clean way
to represent what gmail does.

~~~
saurik
This is incorrect: Gmail could (and really should) be represented as a single
mailbox, with labels mapping to flags. Combined with support for the (widely
implemented in non-Gmail servers) QRESYNC extension to make resynchronization
of the flags efficient, this would be a great mapping of Gmail's semantics to
IMAP.

However, most IMAP clients expose mailboxes as "folders" and barely support
flags at all (no indexing, not even slow search, no UI at all most of the
time, and if it even bothers to parse them, often has some silly limit like
"five flags that must be configured ahead-of-time in Settings"), so users
would have had a totally useless experience.

In essence, Gmail's IMAP is implemented the way it is not because it is the
best way to map Gmail's semantics on to IMAP, but because it provides a
reasonable fit to the way Outlook, Thunderbird, and Apple Mail (the only
e-mail clients that have any marketshare) represent IMAP. Those clients
represent trees of mailboxes as a folder hierarchy.

While commonly believed, people really need to stop blaming IMAP for Gmail:
it's about as silly as claiming using HTTP headers as part of an API
specification is impossible because none of IE, Firefox, Chrome, or Safari,
allow users to modify the headers in their document-oriented web browsers.

------
xwowsersx
I love FastMail's interface and used it for couple of months. Recently, I let
my free trial expire and allowed my account to be deleted. Why? Because it's
not just about email. Everything, I mean everything, is in my Google
account...docs in Drive, 10s of thousands of photos in G+...and it's all
integrated so well. Bailing on the email part of the Google suite just adds a
layer of disconnect and complexity...it's unfortunately just not worth it to
me at this point.

------
maxsilver
Is there any service like FastMail, with a FastMail-like quality web
interface, that offers ActiveSync support?

I don't mind paying a little extra to cover the licensing. But I don't want to
be stuck with IMAP again -- the biggest draw for service for me is the
"Contacts + Calendar + Tasks + Mail" instant syncing of something like
ActiveSync.

Rackspace E-mail comes closest from what I've tried. But being stuck on
Outlook Web Access isn't awesome.

~~~
zw
While I can't find myself living without push, it's not like ActiveSync is the
silver bullet. Contacts in Exchange, for example, are a ridiculous and
horrible mess with a limit of three on everything and no custom synced fields.

------
D9u
I've been a Fastmail user for about seven years now, but my reasons for
choosing Fastmail had nothing to do with security, it has to do with mobile
accessibility.

From the first time I tried Fastmail I noticed that the site was compatible
with my mobile devices, which, at the time (2006), was the exception rather
than the rule.

When ASA/Opera took the site over, the site quality went down, IMHO, but I
still use Fastmail today because it just works.

~~~
jarek
For the record, the ASA in "Opera Software ASA" is short for
Allmennaksjeselskap, the Norwegian term for a public limited company.

------
darxius
Fastmail is nice, but I don't see how it removes the right to complain that
Gmail is sneaking ads in as email without warning its users first.

~~~
Kurts
They're not "sneaking ads as email":
[http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2013/06/ads-in-gmails-
promo...](http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2013/06/ads-in-gmails-promotions-
tab.html)

~~~
gulbrandr
This is not an official source.

------
dmix
I recommend Steve Losh's Homely Mutt for replacing gmails web interface with a
local client. [http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/10/the-homely-
mutt/](http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/10/the-homely-mutt/)

Then this can be combined with an email service that encrypts all incoming
emails as they arrive such as Countermail or Lavabit.

------
Aqueous
The ad messages are under the promotions tab. Who clicks the promotions tab?
You can even disable it.

Honestly, if they were interspersing ad messages with my regular mail it would
be a big issue. But just like with search, where ads are separated off to the
side, the ads here are clearly marked and separated. So I don't see a problem.

------
kailuowang
I am glad there is a great alternative to Gmail. Somehow somebody has to pay
for the service you use. It's either your pocket, or your data, or companies
paying for ads. Each service provider can use a different option and it's
great for us consumers to have all options on the table.

------
Osmium
I just did recently, and I'm very happy with the decision.

Two feature requests though:

1) Push support for iPhone

2) Have my email encrypted on disk (in the unlikely event there's a security
hole or a rogue sysadmin or something, I don't want my email copied wholesale
by one attacker) -- I'd pay extra for this

------
jackreichert
The fact that they even offer 200mb and 800mb plans makes it hard for me to
take them seriously. Shame.

~~~
harrytuttle
Huh?

I've had my email address since 1995. I have 5Mb / 6 emails in my Maildir and
that's only because I've got lazy recently. I've recieved probably 500,000
emails over the years.

Hoarding email is like recording all your phone conversations and keeping the
tapes in your living space. If it's worth keeping, save it elsewhere. If it's
not, delete it.

~~~
baudehlo
I completely disagree. I've kept every email I've ever received or sent since
1996 (close to a million emails, all searchable/indexed) and it has proved
extremely useful over the years to be able to find ancient emails very
quickly. I'm sure some large proportion of those emails I will never use, or
will never be useful, but space is cheap, and keeping them doesn't hurt at
all.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Completely agree. I've been using Gmail since 2005, and it is fantastic being
able to simply search and get emails from that long ago when needed.

------
dochtman
I've been trying FastMail for the past two months or so and have been very
impressed; it's actually better than GMail in many ways. Most importantly to
me, it seems to be quite a bit faster than GMail for me.

One problem I've had is with their spam filtering. I've marked everything
spammy as Spam (some 800 messages so far), but I can't figure out how to get
things marked as non-spam (so that the personal database gets enabled). I've
setup auto-non-spam folders and a lot of messages get routed into those, but
they're not being counted as non-spam. I've also moved a few messages
manually, and they also don't get counted.

~~~
thrownaway2424
I'm interested in quantitative evidence of "faster". I have 1.5GB of mail in
gmail that I sync to fastmail and gmail is significantly, noticeably faster
for me. Especially search.

I am skeptical of performance claims especially by people (not referring to
you, but to the author of the post) who think mail.app is fast. Mail.app needs
several seconds to do things that gmail does in 50 milliseconds, like load a
thread with 100 posts, or free text search.

------
SamWhited
Great post; I'd love to try the service but I have over 10 Gigs of content in
my current Gmail and can't really justify spending an extra $119.95 a year
extra on email. This makes me wish I could though.

~~~
masnick
Thanks!

That's a lot of email...how much does it cost to store on gmail?

~~~
thrownaway2424
Nothing. The free tier of gmail is now 15GB.

------
pwelch
I'm really interested in switching email providers but is there a solution for
calendar? I really enjoy my calendar syncing across multiple devices and
sharing with my friends and family.

Anyone have some good solutions?

~~~
masnick
I actually use iCloud because the Google Calendar -> Calendar.app syncing was
pretty flakey. Obviously that's a bad choice if you're not all on Apple
devices, but if you are I think it works pretty well.

Based on this excellent post ([https://kkinder.com/2013/05/21/leaving-googles-
silo-alternat...](https://kkinder.com/2013/05/21/leaving-googles-silo-
alternatives-to-gmail-talk-calendar-and-more/)) it seems like there isn't a
great drop-in replacement for Google Calendar (except for iCloud).

~~~
zw
It's not actually a bad choice at all, though, considering their CalDAV
support is best-in-class.

------
monkey26
So, is there a market for a hosted email solution with a killer web ui that is
not hosted in the US? How about Canada? Just wondering if there is an
opportunity here for a non-US startup.

~~~
kayoone
i dont think so. Its not like Reader which was shut down, gmail will operate
like it always has and most people wont bother to switch or simply dont know
anything about PRISM/NSA etc.

The noise on HN regarding this is extreme because this is a community of
people who are really passionate about these topics, most people are not
though.

------
cpursley
What's the point of switching to an inferior email service if their servers
are still under US jurisdiction? Might as well stick with Gmail and suffer the
adds and NSA spying.

~~~
bcvbcvbcv
The point is to not support a company that does things you dont like.

But if you dont feel strongly about issues such as privacy, of course you dont
see the point.

~~~
cpursley
That's the thing -- I do feel strongly about privacy. That's why I don't see
the point in switching to another US based service. Better to use a European
or Asian provider or roll your own.

~~~
iandundas
I just bloody switched to fastmail because I thought it was Australian - and
unfortunately I really like it. Gutted to hear it's hosted in USA, kinda
negates the point of my effort switching away.

~~~
psbp
You think Australia isn't a surveillance state?

~~~
cpursley
Not the kind that drones you, mate.

~~~
psbp
[http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/australia-to-
stoc...](http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/australia-to-stock-up-on-
us-drones/story-fn5fsgyc-1226644838899)

~~~
gasull
For those like me who can't access the link:

[http://web.archive.org/web/20130609020621/www.news.com.au/te...](http://web.archive.org/web/20130609020621/www.news.com.au/technology/sci-
tech/australia-to-stock-up-on-us-drones/story-fn5fsgyc-1226644838899)

------
dtjohnnymonkey
I've had a Fastmail account for about 10 years and the spam filtering is
nowhere near as good as Gmail. There are some days I'll see 20-30 spam
messages in my inbox.

~~~
masnick
I've heard the same thing, but it hasn't really been a problem for me.

If it was, I'd try [http://mailroute.net](http://mailroute.net). Apparently
it's supposed to be pretty good at handling spam.

------
workhere-io
Another alternative is [http://www.runbox.com/](http://www.runbox.com/) \-
hosted entirely in Norway which has strong privacy laws.

~~~
tombrossman
Is Runbox still storing account passwords in plain text?

They looked like a great option but when I set up an account recently they
emailed me my username and password in plain text. I cancelled immediately but
if they get the security basics right I may look at it again.

~~~
socksy
Whilst I can't condone the sending off passwords over in plain text, if done
at the registration stage it doesn't necessarily mean that they're being
stored as plain text.

~~~
mikevm
There is absolutely no reason any service should ever email you back your
password.

------
jstalin
If you're gonna pay, might as well stick with hushmail.

~~~
savszymura
[https://twitter.com/ioerror/status/353955117411737600](https://twitter.com/ioerror/status/353955117411737600)

>Don't use hushmail. Never use hushmail or suggest it to others - they snitch
out their users. Fuck them.

~~~
gcr
Context?

~~~
signed0
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hushmail#Compromises_to_email_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hushmail#Compromises_to_email_privacy)

------
jes5199
I actually use gmail's "Priority Inbox" \- I'm not into "Inbox Zero", most of
my mail I never read. So I like that gmail lets the real human people I talk
to regularly pop up into a special zone. I've got my phone set to only make a
noise when I get email in Priority Inbox.

So sadly, I think gmail still has what's basically a killer app for me.

------
monkey26
Are most of you happy with Fastmail's pricing? I'd really like to switch away
from Google apps for my families email needs, but would much rather pay $X for
a domain and diskspace, and then create accounts as needed.

The family plan seems overpriced as well, as I'm the only one who needs large
disk space, the other 3 accounts don't need so much.

~~~
monkey26
Oops, just noticed that not all accounts need to be the same capacity. That
saves a few dollars.

------
kaolinite
I switched to Fastmail from Google Apps a month or so ago and absolutely love
it. Really fast, great web UI and works better with desktop clients than Gmail
(none of the weird label issues, duplicate folders, etc). The entire migration
process was very smooth too and the support always got back to me within an
hour or so.

~~~
klancaster1957
I did the same thing, also about a month ago. The latest gmail ui updates were
bugging me. Now I have all my accounts forwarding to my fastmail account -
works great.

------
cake
Google sure is getting bad press lately !

------
wambotron
I find it somewhat disappointing that so many people still rely so heavily on
email that they can even become a "power user" of gmail. I check my email a
few times a day, and even my work email has gone to once per day. It's an
incredible time sink otherwise.

------
brownbat
FastMail's (one of) my backup accounts. I don't use it often, so I don't
really give out the address, but log in once every few months to confirm it
still works.

It's wall to wall spam every time I open it up, stuff I don't ever see in
Gmail.

There are tradeoffs....

------
pan69
It seems that these Fastmail guys are primarily charging for storage. My
question would be, do they allow to set up many different domains and email
addresses inside a single account or is this a one email address/domain per
account thing?

~~~
masnick
Yes, you can use as far as I can tell an unlimited number of domains and
aliases in a single account. Another plus over Google Apps is that the aliases
are domain-specific (as far as I could tell, aliases for Google Apps applied
to all domains).

~~~
brightsize
I've been on the "Enhanced" plan for years now and have at least a dozen
domains and maybe a dozen and a half email addresses configured. FM will also
let you (if not encourage you to) to use its DNS servers instead of your
registrar's, but that's up to you. I generally use FM for DNS hosting but you
absolutely do _not_ need to do this to host domain mailboxes with them.

------
MitziMoto
Does anyone out there know of something similar to FastMail (or gmail) that is
_self hosted_? I've been dying for a fast, modern webmail app that I can host
myself, but everything I've tried is just terrible (by comparison).

~~~
workhere-io
[http://roundcube.net/](http://roundcube.net/)

------
msh
But fastmail don't give you calendar and contacts that you can sync to
devices...

------
dkoch
I've had the same Fastmail account since 2003 -- they were one of the first
webmail providers to have strong IMAP support back in the day. It's always
been reliable for me with very few outages through the years.

------
vsvn
These kind of posts are useless at most. Lets say 2 months from now FastMail
is doing 90% of the things the author didn't like. What then? Switch to yahoo
and then do another post why I switched to Yahoo?

------
username42
AdBlock works perfectly well with gmail (my manual filter is
mail.google.com##[class="mq"]). For privacy, I have installed "Mymail-Crypt
for Gmail", but I know noone who uses pgp.

------
corobo
"Ready to give FastMail a shot? I’d suggest: Moving all your existing email to
FastMail."

This is not how you test things. For those prices vs storage I'd rather roll
my own if I had to move off Gmail

------
lloeki
> _MailMate and it 's interesting thread hierarchy view._

How is it different from the threaded view that has been present since at
least Netscape days?

~~~
masnick
All the UIs I've seen in the last several years present threads flat (without
any hierarchy). If there are other modern mail clients that have this kind of
UI, I'd love to see them.

~~~
lloeki
Thunderbird and Postbox

[https://www.google.fr/search?q=thunderbird+screenshot+thread...](https://www.google.fr/search?q=thunderbird+screenshot+threaded&tbm=isch)

[http://www.postbox-
inc.com/images/screenshots/1_main_interfa...](http://www.postbox-
inc.com/images/screenshots/1_main_interface.png)

~~~
masnick
I've actually used Postbox and didn't realize it could do that. Thanks!

------
mikelat
I want to see a gmail type application I can run from my own servers, I don't
have much faith in the cloud these days.

------
latchkey
What ads? [http://gmelius.com/](http://gmelius.com/)

------
spdegabrielle
What is the point when you are sending and receiving unencrypted email
anyway...

------
Kurts
I think it's fair to assume that HN is a fairly technical community and could
manage such a feat on its own, so these: "here is how to switch from [insert
Google service] to its competitor" posts strike me as karma-bait (and they do
get votes).

As to these ads you're so troubled by:

 _Twitter ads look like tweets, Facebook ads look like Facebook posts, and of
course search ads look like search results, at least in Gmail they have their
own designated area. They replace the webclip ads when the "promotions" tab is
enabled [http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2013/06/ads-in-gmails-
promo...](http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2013/06/ads-in-gmails-promotions-
tab.html) _

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6069372](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6069372)

Also quoting some random Marco Arment anti-Google troll as though it has some
weight or authority doesn't help your point.

~~~
icebraining
_As to these ads you 're so troubled by: (...)_

Yeah, those are good arguments to avoid using Twitter and Facebook as well.

------
coin
infinite scroll is not a feature

~~~
brongondwana
classic.fastmail.fm

