
Why washing machines are no longer built to last - akandiah
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27253103
======
DodgyEggplant
One of the reasons: Products are not taxed by their environmental real price.
If environmental damage incurred with "new" (materials, shipping, disposing
the older products after a only a few years) would be calculated in the final
consumer price, then durable products, and fixing rather buying new, would be
the better consumer option. New products are "cheap" in store, are "cheap" by
saving manufacturer need to handle support and fixes, but they are very
expensive for the environment.

~~~
userbinator
There's also the fact that manufacturers want to make a profit, so it is in
their interest to make products that last only "long enough" \--- too short
and people will complain (but gradually change this, and maybe they may not
notice), too long and they'll feel like they're losing money. Washing
machines, fridges, etc. are a mature technology that has relatively little
room for improvement, so unlike e.g. computer hardware that changes at a much
faster pace, the manufacturers have to drive consumption somewhat more
aggressively. They also make them far (edit: more, not less) unserviceable
than before.

I've always detested the "newer is always better" mentality that the
population seems to have been conditioned into, and that the culture
perpetuates; I think when the _only_ reason you want to buy a new X is because
your existing one is "old" (not unfixably broken, not slow, not missing a
feature that would really improve your life), there is something seriously
wrong.

~~~
hershel
I wonder how are Chinese white Goods, since the market is new, manufacturers
are quite new and consumers are clearly interested in saving money and in
durable goods.

------
ama729
Well, at least recycling is still widely practiced by journalists.

Every time there is an article about planned obsolescence, we hear about how
old appliances lasted forever and how it was better before, yet there is never
any actual statistics about the problem, nor any kind of proof that
manufacturers are doing it maliciously.

More onto the point, old appliances could also have been of higher quality
than today on average, probably because some of them were luxuries back then.

~~~
greenpresident
The whole "back then, stuff lasted forever" thing always seemed very
susceptible to survivorship bias to me: you get the impression that stuff
lasted forever because the old things that are still in use today must have
lasted to still be in use while all the things that broke are not taken into
consideration because they have long been thrown out.

~~~
meric
I think there's a truth in that though. Rice cookers - decades ago they had no
electronics, and was just a case of pressing a switch to complete a circuit to
create heat. My grand mother use one that is older than I am. Nowadays rice
cookers are full of electronics, I doubt they can last as long. Of course,
survivorship bias is still in play here...

~~~
krapp
>decades ago they had no electronics, and was just a case of pressing a switch
to complete a circuit to create heat.

Not disputing your point but that 'old' style of rice cooker is very much
still being sold. I have one, recently bought, with just the one switch
('warm' and 'cook' \- you have to unplug it to even turn it off) and I use it
constantly. Though with electronics in general, you're probably right.
Particularly networked devices, game consoles, anything using proprietary
software or data formats or which is designed to depend on the cloud.

We're going to regret as a civilization in 100 years when most of our
collected wisdom and intelligence has simply vanished into the aether or
become utterly unreadble, but find that cuneiform tablets are still around.

------
ThePhysicist
Historically, the intentional reduction of the lifetime of light bulbs from
2.500 to 1.000 hours by the big manufacturers (Philips, GE, OSRAM) in 1940 is
probably one the first large-scale examples of this, unfortunately today
ubiquitous, practice.

In my own experience I had two cases where this effect was very visible:

I still own a HP Laserjet 4 that I bought for 50 $ on Ebay in 2001. By that
time it already had printed more than 60.000 pages (judging by the test page
output), and until today it still keeps churning out more and more pages at
600 DPI and less than 1 cent per page (a refurbished toner costs around 40 $
and lasts for around 7.000 pages). The printer itself is probably the
sturdiest piece of equipment I've ever seen, weighing in at more than 10 kg
and containing lots of metal parts. Comparing this with the current HP model,
which consists mostly of plastic parts, still effectively prints only at 600
DPI and for which a 2.000 page toner can easily cost in excess of 80 $ kind of
makes you wonder where all the R&D spending in the printer industry went to.

Concerning the washing machine example from the article: I still own on an old
Miele Lavamat which has been in service since 1989 (!) and still works
flawlessly to this day. New machines are more energy-efficient of course
(saving about 50 % of electricity and water compared to the 1989 model) but
seem to have a much shorter lifespan as well.

BTW, a while ago Arte (a French/German TV channel) showed a really interesting
documentary on this "planned obolescence" ("Kaufen für die Müllhalde" \-
"Buying for the Junkyard"; unfortunately only in German and French
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVFZ4Ocz4VA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVFZ4Ocz4VA)).

~~~
rasz_pl
Wired also covered this

[http://www.wired.com/2012/10/ff-why-products-
fail/all/](http://www.wired.com/2012/10/ff-why-products-fail/all/)

------
chestnut-tree
Some appliances haven't really changed much over the years: toasters, irons,
kettles. But some appliances have improved their energy efficiency (e.g.
fridges and freezers) and some are a little bit more enviromentally friendly
(e.g. washing machines).

If you have a (front-loading) washing machine that's still running from 20
years ago, it's probably using more water than a front-loading machine
purchased today.

Let's say I buy a top-of-the line Miele washing machine for £1300 ($2000 /
€1580) [1] that's built to last 20 years. But 5 years after buying this
washing machine, new washing machine models start using 25% less water. I can
continue using my washing machine, but it's no longer as efficient as newer
models. On the other hand, by keeping my current machine I'm not adding to the
growing scrapheap of discarded consumer products. So, for some appliances
there is a trade-off between longevity and the possibility that future
appliances may be more energy efficient.

[1] Yes, you really can buy washing machines for £1300
[http://www.johnlewis.com/miele-wkh-120-wps-washing-
machine-8...](http://www.johnlewis.com/miele-wkh-120-wps-washing-machine-8kg-
load-a-energy-rating-1600rpm-spin-chromeedition/p1163636)

~~~
bradleyjg
If a washing machine uses less water and electricity but fails to actually
clean clothes, in what sense is it efficient? Already that's happened to the
top load market:

[http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405274870466260...](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704662604576202212717670514)

~~~
chestnut-tree
Interesting...top-loading washing machines have never gained a foothold in the
UK. Front-loading washing machines are the norm and always have been. Front-
loading machines are perfectly capable of cleaning clothes, but sure there are
some disadvantages compared to top-loaders: generally longer washing times,
inability to add clothes once the wash cycle starts. I'm guessing that the
high cost of front-loaders in the US is due to their low popularity?

~~~
dazc
I remember top loaders being the norm - maybe 30 years or so ago but I am very
old.

------
ronaldx
Inevitable Wikipedia link:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons#Asymmetr...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons#Asymmetric_information)

It's impossible for a consumer to know that a supposedly high-quality washing
machine will last longer than a cheap washing machine - longevity reviews are
impractical with a changing market.

In the past, manufacturers have overcome this by offering a guarantee. But,
does a manufacturer guarantee even act as a true guarantee? How many claims
are brushed off with an excuse? How many white goods manufacturers will exist
in their present form in N years time?

~~~
tim333
It's impossible to know how long they will last but you can make some sort of
guess - my repair guy said don't buy Indersit, they all pack up in no time and
suggested Electrolux which I went for - fingers crossed.

We could do with some better info on average life - someone like Appliances
Direct who cart away a lot of broken machines could benefit the world by
publishing how old different models were when they croaked.

~~~
speeder
Heh, I am from Brazil and own lots of eletrolux stuff, and I had been telling
people to.not buy eletrolux, their stuff breaks really fast, is badly
designed, and their service people are rude and not interested in helping at
all.

~~~
tim333
Ah well. I just googled and found a few reports of my model's controller card
packing up. We'll see.

~~~
speeder
On my case:

I own several microwaves (that frequently start to work with the door open...
seemly shitty quality switches) and a fridge.

The fridge in particular has a "easy defrost" button, what it do is turn off
the fridge until the fridge is defrosted, the problem is that there is no way
to undo it, and the button is in a place that is easy to bump, if you press it
accidentally, your food still spoil...

Also the button is prone to get stuck, when I called a technician, I started
by saying the problem, and he figured that it was a eletrolux fridge on his
own, the problem is really common (and let's say, that a fridge that shuts
down is one of the worst problems to have on a fridge, much worse than failing
lights or door hinge issues, those are annoyances, but don't waste food).

Also eletrolux never fixed my stuff, both the fridges and the microwaves I
ended fixing myself, every time I contact eletrolux it is a sad thing, they
are so bad that I don't even get disappointed anymore.

Also when I disassembled the fridge, it was one of the most shoddy
constructions I ever saw, stuff glued with tape, misaligned plastic parts,
missing bolts (that cannot be installed anyway, because the previously
mentioned misaligned plastic parts), and so on...

~~~
jacquesm
When it happens again, pull the plug on the fridge, wait 5 minutes and then
plug it in again. Your food will likely not be spoiled yet and the
microcontroller will be re-set. With some luck it will then be a fridge again
instead of a cup-board.

~~~
speeder
It is not a microcontroller, it is a mechanical switch to the engine power. My
"fix" was to mechanically force the switch to a reset position, and the issue
is that frequently the switch get stuck in place.

------
Theodores
There are some rose tinted spectacles going on here.

White goods in yesteryear times were not that reliable or as good as the
author imagines them to have been. They broke down, had design faults, had
poor choice of materials and so on.

Some things, particularly microwave ovens, are disposable. You spend £30 and
get a new one. You don't get it serviced for £££ or buy the parts. Washing
machines are a bit more borderline, you can order a new belt or heating
element and put it on all by yourself, following some guide on Youtube and
getting the parts from eBay.

~~~
danieltillett
This is true to a certain extent. One difference is machines in the past could
be repaired, now they just don't seem to be possible to fix.

An interesting exception to the "everything is going to crap" thesis is cars.
These are way more reliable that old cars.

~~~
bdunbar
Eh. I've repaired a few modern appliances, worked on a 2003, 2001, model cars.

Washer was a cinch, thanks to the repair manual (found online). The only
difficult bit is diagnosing the car [1] was the makers assumed I'd have a
diagnostic computer to plug into the port and read off whatever the car
thought was the problem.

Capitalism to the rescue! Any parts store (O'Reilly, Autozone, etc) will
cheerfully plug their diagnostic computer in and _tell_ you what the problem
is.

[1] For non-obvious faults. When my Explorer threw a rod, that was painfully
obvious.

------
shanecleveland
Speed Queen: [http://www.speedqueen.com/home/en-
us.aspx](http://www.speedqueen.com/home/en-us.aspx)

Commercial-style. No frills. Made in USA. Washer has something like 8 moving
parts. No plastic.

------
im3w1l
Another of the reasons: Products are manufactured with lots of automation, and
the workers have 3rd world wages. Products are repaired manually for 1st world
wages.

~~~
userbinator
I've noticed this in China where repairs are far more common, faster, and
cheaper --- e.g. in the West the usual repair on laptops consists of swapping
parts like motherboards, but over there you can walk into a repair shop and
have component-level troubleshooting and replacement done by someone with a
hot air gun/soldering iron while you wait and watch, for cheaper than the cost
of a whole new assembly. Ditto for mobile phones. There's also far more
recycling/reuse going on there too, which while it may be a bit unscrupulous,
could be somewhat better for the environment.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Do not let them repair your phone out of sight though. They'll fix your
problem but a new one will pop up next week because they've swapped some of
the parts that weren't broken.

It was also still cheaper for us to get a new washer machine than have the old
(landlord's even!) fixed. At least we don't have to worry about a dryer :)

------
mgkimsal
Re: the mixer that cost "a month's wages"...

We bought a new washer/dryer 2 years ago. Already needed service in the first
year, and the washer is rusting already, and it's out of warranty. These
weren't the cheapest, but not most expensive - around $800/each, IIRC. There
were some cheaper, and many far more expensive (some $1200-$1500 for each
unit).

The problem with "well, these are using lesser quality parts" argument is... I
seem to have no choice. _AND_ I'm skeptical that the $1800 washer is actually
going to last any more than the $800 washer, given the track records.

When the identifiers are SQ-WSHR-2700 ($800) and SQ-WSHR-2720 ($1800), both
built in the same manufacturing facility, and the sales blurbs just show one
has 3 extra cycles and an "eco-cycle"... what incentive do I have to trust
that one is actually going to last 15 years while one will only last 3?

~~~
andreasvc
You shouldn't buy a more expensive model, you should buy a better brand, e.g.,
a German brand like Miele.

~~~
lazyjones
Miele is overrated IMO. The brand tries to build some sort of hype around its
warranty and higher price, but it fails to produce better results as many
independent tests have shown. I own a Miele W2365 washing machine and a Miele
T4223C tumble dryer, both sold and installed by a specialist retailer. The
washing machine fails to wash properly at lower temperatures (<= 40°C) and the
tumble dryer ruins many (suitable for dryers!) clothes because it seems to
have no temperature limit and gets far too hot. They still both "work" after 8
years though ...

~~~
frik
Older Miele models are real work horses that run forever. I have seen several
models from the 1960s to 1990s that run 24 hours a day in a testing
department.

------
Strilanc
The article didn't answer any of the questions I had. It reads a bit like
someone was asked to expand the title into two thousand words. Half-thought
explanations, some anecdotes, but almost no data.

So both prices and lifetimes have dropped... but how much and how fast? Are we
paying more dollars per lifetime year?

What about interventions to fix the incentives in the market? What's been
tried? Who's pushing for reform? Are we likely to see any? Are there some
reliable signals of long lifetime we can incentivize?

------
Joeboy
For something like a washing machine, I think I personally see older, second
hand goods as worthy competitors for new ones, in terms of their likely
remaining life expectancy. The fact they tend to be cheaper seems almost
perverse.

Edit: May be of interest:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/buyitforlife](http://www.reddit.com/r/buyitforlife)

~~~
danieltillett
One of the major advantages of old machines is they can be fixed. If you are
at all handy with tools then this will save you a fortune.

~~~
bryanlarsen
As long as you don't have to pay for your water. Those old machines use a lot
more water than the new ones...

~~~
speeder
But they really clean the clothes...

I lived in several.different places recently with their own washing machines.
All.economical.machines not only.failed to clean the clothes in one attempt
(in total wasting MORE water instead) but some also made clothes dirtier
unless you disassembled the filters and cleaned them very carefully after each
attempt, resulting that sometimes it was faster to hand wash instead.

I currently live in a rented apartment, and I don't bought a washing machine,
the ones available are too flimsy, waste time, waste water and power, and thus
are a complete waste of money.

------
danieltillett
Unfortunately the real reason is manufacturers are better at being able to
make machines to meet consumer expectations. In the past they tended to over
engineer machines - now they are able to build the absolute minimum level
people are willing to accept in order to meet a price point.

------
gnoway
The assumption that these things should be cheap is not new.

I bought my first washing machine - a high speed front load type - about 12
years ago. It was ~$1k, but for several reasons I thought it was a good buy.
The cashier made a big deal about it when I went through the checkout line,
laughing loudly at my stupidity for purchasing such an expensive model and
actually exhorting the cashier in the next lane to do the same. Didn't I know
that I could have got a washing machine for $300 or less? I was really
embarrassed; I've never bought another appliance in-store.

I'm still using the washing machine. I have had no problems with it and it
would not surprise me if it's the last washing machine I ever buy.

~~~
zo1
_" The cashier made a big deal about it when I went through the checkout line,
laughing loudly at my stupidity for purchasing such an expensive model and
actually exhorting the cashier in the next lane to do the same.[..]I was
really embarrassed;"_ I'm sorry you experienced something like that. That is a
positively horrible thing to do to a customer. I would have gone straight
through to the manager to complain. And then I would have told him I'm not
buying it, and he can thank the two cashiers for that. That would have
probably been quite a chunk of their salary that they wasted for the store.
They would have probably gotten fired for it. It's one thing to give advice,
and a nudge if a customer is misinformed by the sale staff. It's something
completely different to mock/embarrass him for whatever smart/stupid buying
decision he makes.

On the plus side, at least you're glad about your purchase now and have gotten
a good deal for your money 12 years later.

------
busterarm
My grandmother's Maytag washing machine from the mid-1950s was still working
up until about 5 years ago. It suddenly stopped working and all it needed was
a new belt. However, this was in a house that we were selling and had no need
to keep a machine long-term.

We sold the washing machine and dryer to a film studio/prop company for enough
money to buy more than a dozen washing machines.

------
dsirijus
That's a wonderful choice for article cover image.

------
zaroth
When I'm in the store shopping, yes I want all the latest features and options
and a nice color. But once I get it home, really the only thing I want is for
it to be indestructible.

A company with a reputation for insanely high durability would definitely
garner a premium. It's like innovators dilemma making a machine which would
last 50 years with minimum maintenance, but if a startup offered such a
machine and could demonstrate superior engineering, I think it's a winning
recipe, although it's a slow growth play not a rocket ship.

Reminds me of the cost analysis posted recently on the Tesla showing it might
be cheaper than an Odyssey, due to massively higher residual value and lower
maintenance and upkeep. Could you make the Tesla of kitchen appliances, I
think you could!

------
Evolved
I've noticed a vicious cycle much like many of you that I'd blame on the
manufacturer more than the consumer. It goes like so: consumer buys expensive
product, product lasts 10 years then breaks, consumer can't buy same product
again so they buy similar product from same manufacturer but product is now
cheaper. Product lasts 5 years. Consumer is upset that product didn't last and
wonders why they spent so much money. Consumer buys 3rd product from same or
different manufacturer but buys cheaper or cheapest model due to not wanting
to waste money. Product lasts 2 years. Consumer vows to only buy cheapest
product from now on. Manufacturer continually offers cheaper products that
last less and less.

Manufacturers will have a hard time convincing consumers that their products
will last because of what the last decade had shown us so the only solution is
not to offer a product so cheap that people will take a chance on it because
then people will think the quality goes in hand with the price. Nay, the
solution is to warranty the product much longer and earn the trust of the
consumer.

Manufacturers likely won't do this because a 20% profit margin on an expensive
product lasting 10 years isn't nearly as appealing as 3 3.333-year lifespan
products at 40% margins each.

Manufacturers don't need their product to last long, just longer than their
competition's products.

------
noisy_boy
I've tried to counter this with buying commercial/business oriented items.
E.g. my 8 year old HP nx6320 (since discontinued) is built like a tank and
still works absolutely fine (I still see them working as cash machines/receipt
printers in shops). Because it is a business segment machine, it cost me a
fortune at that point of time. I bought a new lighter/smaller Dell because I
was tired of hauling the HP and it is also a business segment machine. It
would be interesting to see how long it goes before having problems.

------
iSnow
Well, there are still brands that are long-lasting, but also pricey. I bought
a Miele washing machine for $1100 in 2006 and fully expect it to last 20
years. This brand has a reputation for lasting.

------
jotm
Washing machines haven't changed _that_ much. The main points of failure are
the heating element, the onboard computer and the brushes on the motors. That
last one is where repairmen get you - they say your machine is "practically
dead" (the brushes usually last 5-7 years), buy a new one or replace the motor
(usually expensive). Older machines had induction motors that lasted forever
(but used more power and were louder).

------
namenotrequired
I recently came across Bundles[1], one of the companies trying to fix this. I
saw them pitch at Demo Day of a Smart Energy themed accelerator programme and
was very impressed by what a single entrepreneur has already achieved in such
early stages.

[1] Their website seems to only be in Dutch so far:
[http://www.wasbundles.nl/](http://www.wasbundles.nl/)

------
chiph
Staber has an interesting design. Top-loading horizontal-axis washers. They
were featured on "How It's Made" a few years ago. Not cheap, but seems to be
made from quality materials (stainless-steel tub and basket).

[http://www.staber.com/washingmachines](http://www.staber.com/washingmachines)

------
stuaxo
What is this comment from the website about ???

"28\. imemomeme JUST NOW Must say I don'y approve of the term white goods and
the connotations that can be formed."

------
jpswade
As far as I'm aware under EU law electrical appliances such as washing
machines are meant to last 6 years.

~~~
jonasvp
That misconception is covered in the article:

> She points out that consumer law does not underwrite six years of use, as is
> commonly believed.

It's two years. In some countries, e.g. Germany, after six months the burden
of proof is on the consumer that the product had already been faulty when
receiving it
([http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/ecc/consumer_topics/buying_goo...](http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/ecc/consumer_topics/buying_goods_services_en.htm)).

------
SixSigma
That 10 y.o. washing machine has nothing like the energy rating of a new one.
Sometimes it is a false economy.

------
awda
This trend started before smartphones became popular... don't blame them.

~~~
steven2012
Yeah, I think that line of thought betrays how young the author probably is.

Back in the 90s people were complaining about planned obsolescence, when TVs
and vacuum cleaners were dying after a few years, as opposed to the TVs and
vaccum cleaners made in the 1970s. My parents had a vacuum cleaner that was
over 35 years old and they still used it.

------
transfire
"£199 for a washing machine"? Are you kidding? A descent washing machine here
in the State can run you well over a $1,000.

------
elliottkember
Buy cheap, buy twice!

------
rasz_pl
Two words: Planned Obsolescence
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence)

Washing machines - Drum Support/Spider is made from special aloy DESIGNED to
corrode in soapy water! This allor is often the ONLY not painted part of the
whole drum :)
[https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=corroded+spider+was...](https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=corroded+spider+washing)

If you want quality product you need to buy Miele for example at minimum 4x
garbage washing machine price.

Even brands like Audi are doing it nowadays, designing parts of the engine to
fail just outside waranty period.

~~~
shiftpgdn
Gonna need a citation on that claim against Audi. The vast majority of Audi/VW
cars are equipped with a 2L turbo that is probably the most bullet-proof motor
made today. I personally put 120,000 very hard miles on a VW GTI equipped with
the signature 2L turbo.

I've seen multiple folks on the MKVGTI forums approaching 200k miles with no
issues as well.

~~~
rasz_pl
2.0 TDI BLB Engine is made to fail at ~200K no matter what you do, from oil
pump to head micro fractures.

crankshaft sprocket after 200K
[http://lh6.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSlFIeSXI/AAAAAAAAG9o/rt...](http://lh6.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSlFIeSXI/AAAAAAAAG9o/rtpOnIBM2NM/s400/PICT0002.JPG)
[http://lh3.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSn5YALLI/AAAAAAAAG9s/ul...](http://lh3.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSn5YALLI/AAAAAAAAG9s/ulWqenqf22I/s400/PICT0003.JPG)
[http://lh3.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSp1yUs4I/AAAAAAAAG9w/mO...](http://lh3.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSp1yUs4I/AAAAAAAAG9w/mOXeD-
YGa_s/s400/PICT0004.JPG)

VW answer: this part is not serviceable, whole crankshaft needs to be replaced
:D Why is it made out of putty while smaller sprocket (the one taking more
force) is still 'working'?

