
Piratebay strikes back - bandris
http://blog.brokep.com/2009/10/08/fail-in-nl/
======
jacquesm
according to:

[http://webwereld.nl/nieuws/63922/pirate-bay-doet-aangifte-
te...](http://webwereld.nl/nieuws/63922/pirate-bay-doet-aangifte-tegen-brein-
en-kuik---update-2.html)

(dutch) Update 22.03 uur: Joris van Manen, advocaat voor de stichting Brein,
laat in een reactie weten dat het Experian-rapport voor Brein "geen enkele
rol" speelt in de zaak tegen de beheerders. Het was destijds bij een brief aan
de rechtbank toegevoegd in de zaak tegen Reservella. "We doen helemaal geen
beroep meer op dat rapport. Het is ons bekend dat de gegevens erin niet
kloppen."

Update 22.25 uur: Tim Kuik zegt in een reactie dat Brein zich inderdaad niet
beroept op dat rapport in de zaak tegen de beheerders. Volgens hem is het
rapport wel degelijk authentiek en afkomstig van Experian, maar bleek het niet
te kloppen.

"Dit is afleiding, het zoveelste rookgordijn. Deze jongens blijven
verstoppertje spelen. We hebben genoeg bewijs dat de beheerders
verantwoordelijk zijn voor The Pirate Bay," aldus Kuik.

Persoonlijk doet de aangifte hem weinig. "Sunde zégt dat hij aangifte doet. We
weten het nog niet. Ach, ik merk het wel. Van die vorige aangifte is in elk
geval ook nooit meer iets vernomen."

Translation:

Update 22:03: Joris van Manan, legal council for Brein respons that the
Experian report is no longer playing "any role" in the case against the owners
[of tpb]. The report was added with a letter to the court in the case against
Reservella. "We don't base anything on that report. We know that the data in
there isn't correct"

Update 22:25: Tim Kuik responds that Brein indeed doesn't base anything on
that report. According to him the report is authentic and it came from
Experian, but it turned out not to be correct.

"This is just a distraction, the nth smokecurtain. These boys continue to play
hide and seek. We have enough proof that as administrators they are
responsible for The Pirate Bay", according to Kuik.

He's not bothered personally by the filing of charges. "Sunde says he's going
to file. We don't know that yet. I'll fin out about it. That previous filing
was never heard from.".

\--

That may all be true, but I can't believe that the court is going to be happy
with a party that has apparently not retracted a report that it knew to
contain false information.

Also, if Experian says they didn't make that report and Brein says they did,
where did it really come from ? If it can be pinned on Brein that they did
falsify information it is going to hurt them tremendously. One thing they do
is continuously harping on being on the right side of the law, if they falsify
evidence then that veil is pierced once and for all.

It will be very interesting to see how this plays out over time, but I don't
think 'we're not using that report' is going to make this go away.

~~~
aerique
I'm willing to bet 100 euros that Brein will get away with it.

~~~
jacquesm
In court, probably yes. But in the press, probably not.

~~~
aerique
I don't know what has happened to most of my fellow countrymen for the last 10
or 15 years but they don't really give a shit. They're of the "if you've got
nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear"-mentality.

------
bandris
BREIN appears to have forged evidence. Piratebay files criminal charges
against them.

~~~
ash
Thanks for a short summary. But the post was a great read still!

------
Luc
BREIN is the organisation that puts inane 'Downloading is theft' (which it a
simple lie, as any lawyer can tell you) commercials at the start of movies in
the cinema and on DVD - not possible to skip them of course! Talking down to
their paying public like they do, it's like they really WANT people to stop
paying for movies and pirate them.

~~~
ErrantX
_as any lawyer can tell you_

As a point of order they would almost certainly tell you it a) depends on the
country, b) has been untested in the majority of countries so it is _neither_
right nor wrong and anyway it probably would count as theft in a civil case
sense.

However I agree BREIN are a bit crazy - and the video they add to DVD's is
inane.

On the other hand better that than suing individuals I suppose :D (even though
that happens too :()

~~~
henrikschroder
No, the crime is copyright infringement. Almost all countries have signed the
Berne Convention treaty, and made copyright infringement illegal according to
national law.

Theft is a different crime that has been illegal pretty much for as long as
there has been laws.

Pirating a movie is illegal because it is copyright infringement, not because
it is theft. Therefore, calling it theft is a lie, as any lawyer can tell you.

~~~
ErrantX
Actually the World Intellectual Property Organization Copyright Treaty is the
more applicable one :) (it's an extension to the Berne treaty to make it cover
software). Unfortunately whilst both treaties are very specific in some
aspects they are unchallenged very unspecific in other important areas.

Also; they establish a civil crime not a criminal one. Theft laws may still
apply here in the UK, as it is I know the only massive obstacle to
infringement as theft (here in the UK) is the final article - all about the
intention to deprive permanently. There are movements by certain pressure
groups to get it clarified where the line is drawn.

And anyway - the point the video is trying to make is that it is a "moral"
theft. I think it's fair to say the copyright holder has the right to say they
feel that morally a "pirate" is "stealing" from them :)

(Im not defending them or the video - or trying to suggest it _should_ be
theft)

~~~
pyre
> _And anyway - the point the video is trying to make is that it is a "moral"
> theft. I think it's fair to say the copyright holder has the right to say
> they feel that morally a "pirate" is "stealing" from them :)_

The actual problem being that they don't state it that way. They don't state
that it's a 'moral' theft and not a legal theft. They just state it as
'theft.' It's a PR campaign, plain and simple. They want to influence people
to see stealing a car, or stealing 'candy from a baby' as the exact same thing
as downloading a movie without paying for it.

------
puredemo
Oh shit! Have fun with those forgery charges..

~~~
moe
This is so hilarious, I'm absoutely loving it.

The amount of raw, undistilled incompetence boggles the mind.

Fighting a lost case and losing the case is one thing. Forging court documents
and losing _everything_ : PRICELESS.

It also speaks volumes about the mental capabilities of the individuals at
work here. How absurdly stupid do you have to be to forge a document that can
be trivially cross-checked with a phone-call at the issuing agency? This is
not something where you can weasel out later with an "oops, didn't mean to".
It's plain out fraud and I don't think judges have much humor in that regard.

Anyways, I think I'm gonna forge me a nice tax-return statement now and sue my
state over it...

------
maxer
I'm happy for the guys behind pirate bay they are making a killing, every time
an article like this crops up on pages like this or digg/reddit its more
marketing.

start-ups take note- controversial is king!

~~~
tom_rath
Software start-ups should in particular note: If you're selling B2C and your
target market is technically savvy, the folks who will pirate and distribute
your work are considered heroes by many you've hoped to sell to.

~~~
CamperBob
They provide a better product for less money. That's called capitalism.

The fact that it's _my_ product is unfortunate, but ultimately, I have to
compete with them. I can only do that if I can make it easier to deal with my
company than with the Pirate Bay. (Which is exactly how iTunes and Spotify
work, for instance. You _can_ compete with free: you do it by being
_convenient_ , and by finding ways to add value where it wouldn't otherwise
exist.)

I've downloaded quite a bit of stuff from various torrent sites, but you know
what's funny? I've never downloaded anything that I could have purchased from
the copyright holder instead. Whose fault is that?

------
paul9290
Any US citizens use Pirate Bay less? I applaud them for forcing media's hand
which prompted great sites like Hulu and Justin.TV(lol - best of the bunch).
It maybe time to throw in the towel; downloading no longer cuts it for me,
prefer streaming.

------
anApple
To be honest, I hope these guys are going to jail.

You must be a fool to believe that they don't own the pirate bay anymore, or
are not associated with the keyman islands shell company running the company.

Alone mininova disclosed making > 1 million of profit a year, piratebay's
profit must be much bigger, all from the copyrighted works of others.

Most of you wouldn't support piratebay anymore if your program/source code
showed up there, except if it's opensource.

~~~
Quarrelsome
I think it would more apt if both sides go to jail, neither is the answer to
the future of artistic works. On one side a bunch of cartels that IMO should
be investigated by the monopolies and mergers commission and on the other
freetards that don't provide a realistic revenue model for artists.

~~~
unalone
The pirates aren't freetards. I resent your accusation.

The current model isn't working if it's so easily subverted. The solution is
to figure out a model that's pirate-proof. They exist.

~~~
thunk
Pirate-proof in the sense that works can't be pirated? Or pirate-proof in the
sense that piracy is unnecessary because works are already free? I'm pretty
sure the former is impossible.

~~~
unalone
The former's impossible in the paradigm where the only way to make money off
music is to sell songs. That's not true, though.

A few of the models I'm going to be experimenting with: Raising money _before_
you release an album, with certain perks given to people that pay the money
for release. Offering special exclusives that people can choose to pay for,
that most people interested in just music won't bother pirating. That's why
I'm excited for the iTunes LP: It's an idea that's worth money even after you
own the music, that appeals to fans and less to casual criminals.

I'm currently thinking of launching an ARG with a future music project. I
think that launching a video game through an album distribution would be
really fun and potentially really profitable.

------
vizzy
well, it's good to believe Reservella is not connected to TPB, but it must be
run and owned by someone. TPB claims that the ownership was transferred to
this company in 2006. Now how they can be continually discussing a sale of TPB
if they don't own it? Anonymous offshore companies are useless under the
scrutiny they get. Sooner or latter it will be known who controls it and in
this case, I believe, to our major disappointment.

~~~
pyre
> _Now how they can be continually discussing a sale of TPB if they don't own
> it?_

So far as I know none of the people that are being charged here stand to gain
any money from the sale of ThePirateBay. The company that owns it is the one
that stands to profit. This was my impression ever since I heard about the
possible sale.

------
diablo_r
This war is already lost for copyrights protectors, the question is when they
stop bother us.

~~~
Keyframe
By us, people who steal stuff?

~~~
boredguy8
I honestly don't get why this is so heavily down voted. I want my "original
hacker's news" back. What's next in the /. -> k5 -> hn chain?

~~~
narag
_I honestly don't get why this is so heavily down voted._

Because it's a lie? "Piracy" isn't theft. Abortion isn't murder. You can argue
that they're wrong, but this kind of misrepresentation is the lowest possible
way of discusion. In fact it's an admission that people doesn't look at
copyright infringement as wrong, so it must be tagged with a stronger word.

This debate is not going away, because that's the politics of our time. So
please, at least let's keep it a little more intelligent than that.

~~~
jpwagner
dude, this debate is not "going away" because it's grey.

abortion at 8 months 29 days is undoubtedly murder. abortion at 8 months 28
days is undoubtedly murder. Now work backwards, when is it no longer murder?

~~~
WinterAyars
That argument is a form of definition-mongering.

It's basically "because you can't provide an EXACT line that separates these
things there's no separation at all!"

But that's plainly not a convincing argument.

~~~
jpwagner
since when does grey = no separation?

what a weird comment!

------
berntb
Charging people in courts far away... the defendants not even knowing about it
(or even two courts with hearings at the same time!)

Isn't that what the Scientology church do?

~~~
dschobel
It happens. You can even serve legal notice "by publication". So if you can't
track someone down and the judge approves it, it's perfectly legal to serve
notice by posting an ad in the local newspaper (which of course the recipient
will never see).

If this weren't the case, screening your mail judiciously would be the
ultimate legal defense against all civil litigation.

~~~
pyre
Isn't that why there is a business to serving subpoenas? Couldn't this be
utilized in the same way?

