

If most of us won't escape wage slavery, how is humanity still a good idea? - exit

a question inspired by http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1029998 , which didn't attract much attention.
======
dasht
Escape to what, exactly? Subsistence farming? To an ownership position of the
labor product of wage slaves, alienated from their work? To communal ownership
of the means of industrial production and the division of labor by consensus?
To a post industrial techno-topia in which machines do nearly all of the work?
To "profit slavery" in an industrial/capitalist/consumerist yet anti-corporate
economy (lots of small businesses, most people contractors, owners or co-
owners rather than employees)? What?

"Humanity" is at least an interesting idea because, compared to other animals,
we get to contemplate these various possibilities and, if we choose to, to
work towards them.

~~~
exit
I would sign up for "post industrial techno-topia", but the point is precisely
that there are no realistic alternatives.

Why do we continue bringing life into this world when the vast majority face
such a bleak existence? I don't see how being able to contemplate this fate
redeems anything.

~~~
dasht
Don't be so fast and loose with the word "realistic". We live in tough times
but, you know, in the details - in the minutiae - there is some good beauty
and pleasure to be had. We struggle, as a rule, sure, but... I dunno, look at
the bugs on the sidewalk or the birds nesting in the eves of your apartment
building or the dirty water down the sewer drain or the nice smile that
stranger gave you one day. And think about all the good stuff that must have
kept your ancestors going, in their own minutiae, to get you here. There's
nothing bleak about it. It's all in what details you pay attention to.

I think (personally, unscientifically, just guessing) that techno-topia is
probably for a generation or 3 out from here (if we're lucky) -- but that
there's plenty of good for us 'twixt here and there. Unsolicited advice: Don't
let go of your bitter perspective or feel pressured to deem it false - it
ain't, exactly, false. But, don't jump to conclusions either. Don't worry
about "redemption", hour to hour. Don't conclude "bleak". Don't (again) make
questionable assumptions about "realistic". Hang in there. Really. Go out for
a 2 mile brisk walk. Do you drink? Get a beer at a nearby pub (walking to and
fro). Shake your head vigorously. Feel the sunshine or the rain or snow and
seek out what is nice in them. Get back into your body. This whole concept of
"humanity" such as you are thinking about it is some crazy invention, but a
few centuries old. Put this whole "what is the point of humanity" thing aside
for a bit, go out and seek some gentle personal pleasure, and then come back.

Suck it up and take care of yrself by caring beyond yrself.

-t

~~~
exit
"know, in the details - in the minutiae - there is some good beauty and
pleasure to be had"

completely irrelevant. if you did not exist, you would not miss it. there is
nothing to be said against not existing, while there are many things to be
said against existing.

"think about all the good stuff that must have kept your ancestors going"

mostly fear and stupidity, ingrained by millions of years of mindless
evolution, kept our ancestors going. and trivially, only people whose
ancestors did "keep going" will be around today to have this conversation.

hmm, having said that, i still think it's nice of you to respond at all. i
could just go along with what you (and everyone else) is saying. unfortunately
i don't think it makes sense.

~~~
jodrellblank
Discovering existential angst?

> completely irrelevant.

Not so. While you are alive time is passing and you are seeing and hearing.
You may as well focus on seeing and hearing things that are pleasing as it
will make the time more pleasant.

> if you did not exist, you would not miss it.

I agree completely.

> there is nothing to be said against not existing

While not existing is not terribly bad, it does rather limit your options. You
can't do anything fun anymore. You can't have another go. You've cut off your
nose to spite your face.

> while there are many things to be said against existing.

Yes, but why are you focusing on those things?

> I would sign up for "post industrial techno-topia"

I would too, ohh, a few months maybe a year or two ago. It wasn't until I was
idling and reading somewhere here that I really began to grasp the question:
Then what?

There's no happy ever after like in a film, where they get married and it
fades to the credits, or they get hired or promoted or win some money, or save
the day, then the credits roll. IRL the next thing that happens is you look
around and go "now what?". Even if you win enough to retire you still have a
lifetime which is going to pass and you have to find something to do every
day. It isn't just escape wage slavery, win the game, the end. There isn't a
game, or an end.

Ever seen the black comedy Death Becomes Her? They are trying to get a guy to
take the immortality potion, and, well I'll quote from IMDB:

"""Lisle Von Rhuman: Go on... Drink it... It is the completion of your life's
work. You gave other people youth and wasted your own! Drink. And you will be
able to work again forever! Drink... drink, Dr. Menville. You owe yourself
another chance! Drink! It's the right choice! The _only_ choice! Drink! SEMPRE
VIVE! LIVE FOREVER! Ernest Menville: Then what? Lisle Von Rhuman: What? Ernest
Menville: Then what happens? Lisle Von Rhuman: What?"""

Well it's a good question. But really, you may as well say "Sleep! Wake up
tomorrow!", "Then what?".

I don't know if there is 'an answer', but you could consider the Buddhist
style views (I liked Awareness by Anthony De Mello, Buddhism Plain and Simple
by Steve Hagen and The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. You might say they're a
bit new agey or self helpey, but you're contemplating death so it's not like
you've got a lot to fear from reading something different, eh?). Anyway, that
leads to a kind of 'why do you want to escape? Nobody in the cosmic sense
expects anything of you. Let your family and friends have their expectations
and be their problem. Only concentrate on what you do, live your life, stop
desiring everything to be different' kind of view.

And/or you could ask yourself about people who are often or always happy. It's
seems quite well established that exercise, a simpler diet with fewer
processed foods, regular sunshine and a regular sleep cycle improve moods. You
are human not just a floating intelligence, you have a body and maybe your
unhappiness is a product of something out of balance and not something
inherent in the universe? Maybe you'd see the same lack of purpose and
ultimate ending in a different light, as more of a release? Why not do
something daring that you want to? In 100 years who is going to care?

Also, check out

<http://lesswrong.com/lw/sc/existential_angst_factory/>

"If it seems to you like nothing you do makes you happy, and you can't even
imagine what would make you happy, it's not because the universe is made of
particle fields. It's because you're still solving the wrong problem. Keep
searching, until you find the visualizable state of affairs in which the
existential angst seems like it should go away - that might (or might not)
tell you the real problem;"

> but the point is precisely that there are no realistic alternatives.

There aren't anyway. What are you going to do if you are immortal and free
from debt and wage slavery? You have forever to fill and you are stuck in the
universe. You can't escape out of it, there is nowhere out of it to escape to
anyway. You can't escape past it when it ends, because it might end without
time or in heat death or with a big crunch, and even if you could escape what
would you do there? Trapped trapped trapped, it's just ... well, that's life!
:D :( _sigh_.

> Why do we continue bringing life into this world

Biological drives, I guess. But why does it bother you if other people have
hope where you don't? If we die out this generation, human life cannot
improve. If we don't, maybe it can. Assuming you think removal of all pain and
suffering is an improvement - what would we be like if stuck with happiness
turned up to 11 all the time and no other reference points?

> when the vast majority face such a bleak existence?

 _shrug_. What was that you were dismissing about the little things that
happen everyday?

> I don't see how being able to contemplate this fate redeems anything.

What are you wanting some universal overlord to give your life meaning for? If
your existence is the product of evolution, natural selection, the world is
not giving you shit that needs to be redeemed before it can be good, the world
is just what it is and you are interpreting it as bad and also refusing to let
it be good. Stop.

> how is humanity still a good idea?

Who said it was ever a good idea? It just happened. Why do you care if it
stops? What would you replace it with anyway?

