
US Government Takes Down 3D Printed Gun Plans - on3dprinting
http://on3dprinting.com/2013/05/09/us-govt-takes-down-3d-printed-gun-plans/
======
ck2
What's going to be hilarious is when the NRA works against homemade guns
because they don't actually represent gun owners but gun manufacturers and
people finally start getting the point of lobbyists.

Going to get some popcorn and watch y'all fight each other over who gets to
have the most toys to accidentally kill their friends and family with.

~~~
duncan_bayne
Can I just upvote the first line of your reply?

~~~
lucian1900
Surely you can appreciate that most of the world considers the American
obsession with guns absurd :)

Most countries have strict gun laws and the people are fine with that. Banning
3D gun models is still stupid though, especially in a country with such high
gun availability.

~~~
ta25252
Shooting is an Olympic sport for God's sake, but of course Americans are
ignorant violent idiots.

~~~
hga
Hey, not counting Northern Ireland, handguns are banned in enlightened Great
Britain and their pistol team and aspirants to it have to practice outside of
the country: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_sport#Pistol>

------
nostromo
"While I am as impressed as anyone with 3-D printing technology and I believe
it has amazing possibilities," said California state senator Leland Yee (D-San
Francisco/San Mateo), "we must ensure that it is not used for the wrong
purpose with potentially deadly consequences. I plan to introduce legislation
that will ensure public safety and stop the manufacturing of guns that are
invisible to metal detectors and that can be easily made without a background
check."

Why are even bay area politicians so completely dumb about tech. Why can't we
get a Jared Polis?

~~~
huhtenberg
What would be a better way to handle this situation?

(edit) I'm not saying that this is the best option. The government _is_ tasked
with ensuring public safety and this _is_ an issue with major public safety
repercussions. They cannot just sit and watch this unfold, and what this guy
said is basically the most obvious way of dealing with the situation.

~~~
smsm42
It is not. Nobody was threatened with this, nobody will ever be threatened
with this. This thing is un-concealable and unusable as a real-life weapon in
any public safety scenario. If you think anybody with this prototype can
threaten public safety you are badly mistaken.

The idea that any time anything new happens the government should jump in and
prohibit it until it is proven safe is exactly why politicians like this
thrive. Instead, people should use their brains and let the government
intervene only when actual threat is there, not theoretical lets-cover-our-
asses invented threat is touted by politicians.

~~~
huhtenberg
I'm guessing that one can carry it through the airport security easily enough.
It's not that it's printed, it's the fact that it's printed in _plastic_.

~~~
smsm42
Have you been to any US airport recently? These guys grab my freaking nuts and
touch me in places that usually only myself and my wife are allowed to access.
And you say it'd be easy to get through them a piece of a size of a large
brick without them noticing? Do you know what mayhem an explosive of a similar
volume could create? Something does not add up here with your theory.

~~~
huhtenberg
You put it in a bag, obviously.

As a bonus, you redesign it into larger number of smaller pieces and spread
them over several bags.

You can stick your head in a sand as much as you want, but this _is_ a game-
changing development. If one can print a working gun, one can conceivably
print other interesting things that to date were assumed to only exist in
metal, the assumption that was the foundation of respective detection
technology. The assumption that is no longer valid.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_You put it in a bag, obviously._

You mean the bag that goes through an X-Ray scanner which detects high density
objects?

~~~
npongratz
Indeed, the same bag that is mysteriously devoid of valuables after it has
arrived at its destination.

------
confluence
People do realise that improvised firearms are actually nothing new right?
They've been around for ages - indeed 3D printed versions are vastly inferior
to their machine shop counter parts which have been used quite effectively in
the past for various political and gang related assassinations.

Source: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_firearm>

They should probably ban flash lights as well.

~~~
gjulianm
But that's not the same. Printing a 3D gun is relatively easy: download the
design, print it, and that's it (more or less). With an improvised firearm,
you have to search the design, get the materials, build it, and unless you're
experienced the gun probably won't work.

For me, it's like saying "we should not control gunpowder sales because you
can make gunpowder at home". Silly example, I know, but you get my point.

~~~
smsm42
You realize you just described the same process twice, only in different terms
to appeal to different emotions?

It's not like 3d-printed gun does not require design, does not need materials,
does not require assembly and is guaranteed to work.

And yes, controlling sale of basic chemicals on the premise that this somehow
prevents criminals from using them for their nefarious goals is silly. The US
government does it right now with drugs and it is failing spectacularly, only
guys they make trouble to are amateur chemists that have nothing to do with
drugs. Same will happen with guns.

~~~
gjulianm
You don't have to understand the design of the printed gun. You don't need to
search materials apart from the big block of plastic to print and the percutor
needle. The difficulty level is completely different.

And I didn't say that I'm for controlled sale of basic chemicals. I said that
the idea of not controlling 3d-printer gun designs because "you can also make
your gun at home" is silly.

~~~
stelonix
What I don't understand from you (and most anti-3D-printed-guns) is why you
think it _should_ be controlled in the first place?

Even if you somehow found a compelling argument, the kind of control you're
asking for is _impossible_. It's like trying to stop piracy with DRM: you're
gonna piss off users and someone is just going to break your "controlled
environment" in the end.

~~~
jaibot
But you'll still stop _most instances_ of would-be piracy - the 14-year-old
kids hanging out at a park, unable to _easily_ send a movie from one
smartphone to another. Not impossible - just hard enough to not bother.

You can't absolutely stop 3D printing of dangerous artifacts. But you can
lower the appeal by increasing penalties, requiring the party to take more
steps to avoid being caught, attaching a strong social stigma to the practice.

It's physically impossible to keep someone from barreing their car at 80mph
down the wring side of the highway into oncoming traffic, but this is one
among countless potential potential disasters we almost never see in practice.
It is worth considering why such things happen as rarely as they do.

~~~
smsm42
>>>> But you'll still stop _most instances_ of would-be piracy

Really? Is it how it is working out? Last time I looked all those DRM-ed
things were still available easily - together with cracks.

>>> But you can lower the appeal by increasing penalties

Really? Is it how it is working out? I remember we have increased penalties
for drug offenses, which completely eradicated drugs from the market. Oh wait,
it didn't, it is actually worse than ever and increased penalties mostly hurt
innocent people with no criminal intent or criminal past, routing them into
the vast prison industry.

>>> but this is one among countless potential potential disasters we almost
never see in practice.

As opposed to mass shootings with a 3d-printed plastic guns, which we see in
practice every day, right? It is fascinating how common sense can be
compartmentalized so neatly - here you can distinguish imaginary threat from
real one, and here you completely can't.

>>> It is worth considering why such things happen as rarely as they do.

But it's much more worth considering why some things that never happen is OK
but some things that never happen require immediate government action and give
exception from all the Constitution.

~~~
jaibot
It is difficult to measure counterfactuals, but I strongly suspect that the
rate of piracy is much lower than it otherwise would be. Everything you say
regarding availability is accurate - but consider, for example, the difference
in piracy rates between console and PC games. There _are_ cracked versions of
console games, but they are much less widespread because using them is much,
much more difficult.

I am not happy that DRM appears to be effective - I would much rather that not
be the case - but it does appear to significantly reduce the level of piracy
from what it would otherwise be.

You are correct to note the absence of printed-gun crimes. The technology is
young, the printers are not widespread, and the initial designs are likely far
short of what is possible. As accessibility, knowledge, and affordability
increase, I expect those crimes to start occurring. I further expect that the
rate of those crimes will be lower with federal intervention than without. I
really hope I'm wrong about that, too.

~~~
smsm42
Most of the crimes always were, are and will be committed with most readily
available means. This is why in most violent crimes, the weapons used are
fists, knives, clubs and alike, and regular common handguns. One needs to
either have very special circumstances or very special state of mind to choose
to commit a crime with such very exotic weapon as 3d-printed gun. It's like
choosing to shoot somebody with 15-century longbow - possible, but who really
would do it? Of course, among 300+ mln people sooner or latter there would be
some weird people that do that, however I highly doubt banning those files
would stop them either from committing the crime and from committing the crime
with this specific weapon if they already decided to do it.

~~~
jaibot
"Exotic" is a function of time, familiarity, price, and rarity. There was a
time when Internet pornography was exotic, and there will come a time when
printed weapons aren't. Notice, too, the degree to which the Internet vastly
expanded the audience and variety of pornography available. The analogous
process with something less innocuous, like weapons, is not a cheering
thought.

------
downandout
"Folks, lets have us a book burnin!" said Obama. Fortunately, it's not 1960
and the information they seek to control is already out and cannot be
controlled. The fact that the government would even bother taking it down in
an era of torrent networks exemplifies their extreme ignorance of the world we
live in.

------
vxNsr
Wow, this is unbelieveable...

I didn't realize they had this power, or that they'd exercise it like that...
it's just scary to think that the internet is not as free or open as it feels
or appears.

~~~
Schlaefer
This is nothing new, only the newly digitized weapon de jour is changing.
Remember back in the nineties when exporting encryption was the hot topic:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy#Criminal_in...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy#Criminal_investigation)

~~~
shitlord
The only actual difference being that cryptography never killed anyone...

~~~
Schlaefer
You don't have to kill someone in line of sight with it to argue that a
technology is a vital military asset. Nor has it to be its sole purpose.

PS: Obligatory Enigma reference: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra>

PPS: I'm not saying encryption should regulated by the government.

------
clicks
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:0ad7b4f1833e01a3f2fa5613d8fc46de622339ac&dn=DefDist+Defcad+Liberator+Printable+Gun
for download.

To view it, download Blender (free and opensource 3d software)-
<http://download.blender.org/> (it allows you to import stl files if you want
to view them; or export them from your designs when you want to 3d-print
something).

Also, Github has in-browser STL rendering capability (e.g.:
[https://github.com/lorennorman/octocat-3d/blob/master/stl/oc...](https://github.com/lorennorman/octocat-3d/blob/master/stl/octocat_head.stl)
). It's only a matter of time I guess before we'll all be seeing direct links
to individual components.

------
jobu
I thought the government would understand The Streisand Effect by now.

~~~
omegant
Yep I really think that the printed gun is lame, but now that it is forbidden
I want that file! Just for the sake of being able to get it. I don't own a 3d
printer yet, and I would never fire from a plastic barrel, ever (unless
plastic technology changes quite a lot, which is probable)

------
mordae
From here it looks like in two years it will be completely possible to arm
thousands of people on a large demonstration without law enforcement being
able to step in. It might add some weight to peoples' opinion on CISPA, INDECT
and other fascist inventions as they walk towards the parliament. And that's
talking about first world.

Remember Athens, Egypt? Try imagining it a few years from now. People will
have affordable real-time mesh communication networks, high quality urban
mapping, printed guns and home-made explosives. How exactly would you suppress
crowd like that? I say with understanding and empathy, because anything else
_will_ hurt.

~~~
iacvlvs
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government
fears the people, there is liberty."

------
redthrowaway
Meanwhile, I grabbed it off TPB and, judging by the number of seeds, was
hardly the first to think of doing so. Why the USG thinks it can put the cat
back in the bag is beyond me.

~~~
hoi
they're adding hurdles, the more friction involved in the process the lower
the conversion rate for the amount of people who will have the template.

~~~
vidarh
Except that's not how it works with this. They've now incentivised a lot of
people who'd never, ever care to download it just because it's been taken
down, and brought massively more attention to it.

------
bane
The government's stated reason for taking it down is that making weapons
technology available for international download via the internet requires an
ITAR license [1]. If he had simply blocked international IP addresses from
downloading it, it would not have fallen under the powers of the State
Department. I've had to even do ITAR licensing on portable half-racks of off
the shelf Dell servers.

It's a pain, but it is what it is.

1 - <http://pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/itar_official.html>

~~~
tomjen3
First admentment triumphs ITAR, that is why you can export crypto programs.

~~~
bane
Nope, public safety trumps free speech.

You don't have to register with the State Department anymore and it's been
loosened up a bit, but you still have to register with Commerce now and
there's still restrictions.

<http://www.bis.doc.gov/encryption/default.htm>

Here's a nice article summarizing the current status

[http://encryption_policies.tripod.com/us/rubinstein_1200_sof...](http://encryption_policies.tripod.com/us/rubinstein_1200_software.htm)

(not that I disagree with you in principle, just that the reality is not so
cut and dry)

------
kamkazemoose
This makes me wonder what kind of regulations the 3d printing industry will
face. It makes me wonder if 3d printer software might be forced to not print
pieces it recognizes as a gun similar to how ink printers won't print images
of money. Or some other restrictions on printing It seems unlikely that the
government will be happy with people printing anything they want.

~~~
vidarh
The problem is the range of projects aimed at making 3D-printers that can
replicate the parts for itself. Any restrictions will see people designing
plans for innocent looking components that can be used to assemble a
restriction-free 3D-printer. It's a losing proposition to try to restrict
this. They may succeed at delaying widescale adoption for a while, but not
much more.

~~~
antihero
People will just hack the firmware as with every device ever made. They'll
have to make it a crime to use a 3D printer with the intent of creating a
firearm, but who's going to give a shit?

------
rrc
One possibility I haven't seen mentioned here:

1\. Government does actually know how the Internet works

2\. Makes this attempt, knows it will fail

3\. Waits until somebody blows themselves - or somebody else - up with a
poorly made, 3D printed gun

4\. Government points to failed attempt, argues it does not have the necessary
power it needs to prevent these tragedies

5\. Government passes bill expanding its power

6\. Rinse, repeat

Of course my use of "government" here incorrectly suggests a single entity
with a plan. Obviously it does really work that way, but bureaucracies
sometimes remind me of organisms with memories, immune systems and, above all,
a desire to grow.

------
bprater
It's just data. Good luck vacuuming it up from every crack of the Internet.

------
cdvonstinkpot
They're on The Pirate Bay from what I understand, so its a little too late for
that now...

~~~
zackelan
Streisand Effect powers, ACTIVATE!

magnet:?xt=urn:btih:6a991291e4c22d379e814be8b4d44f110ac7d1df&dn=DefDist+Defcad.org+AR-15+Lower+Receiver+V5

magnet:?xt=urn:btih:1c012de81d94330055acce53f46602e7b510b46c&dn=defcad-repo-
master-2013-05-08.zip

magnet:?xt=urn:btih:0ad7b4f1833e01a3f2fa5613d8fc46de622339ac&dn=DefDist+Defcad+Liberator+Printable+Gun

magnet:?xt=urn:btih:c862f0d031e575384acc6bacc2be7d705666d5bf&dn=DefDist+DEFCAD+MEGA+PACK+v4.2+%28Saito%29

magnet:?xt=urn:btih:c37772020eab135e67aac243fb52e750f210a25c&dn=DefDist+DEFCAD+MEGA+PACK+v4.1+%28Carothers%29

magnet:?xt=urn:btih:0f5f7f0a3e5a3e29b56868e19b60f0fe49c17474&dn=DefDist_DEFCAD_MEGA_PACK_v3.3

magnet:?xt=urn:btih:2e26ad5ad4e0f3c7638b41daaaba3aba42b7eadc&dn=3D+gun+print+DEFCAD+MEGA+PACK+v3+with+updates+zip

I don't have a 3D printer, and really, _really_ don't care whether or not you
can print a gun using one. But try to censor information about it, and I'll
mirror it on my seedbox for as long as I can, just to piss you off.

They can't stop the signal.

~~~
mbreese
And you thought that the MPAA tracking torrents was bad... now not only are
you seeding potential copyright infringement (I don't know what the license
actually is), but you might now also be circumventing arms control laws. That
is a whole level of legal hurt that I'd rather avoid.

You might not be able to stop the signal, but I'm pretty sure Mr. Universe
still died at the end of Serenity.

~~~
zackelan
[http://download.mozilla.org/?product=firefox-20.0&os=win...](http://download.mozilla.org/?product=firefox-20.0&os=win&lang=en-
US)

That file didn't exist in 1995, but if it had, distributing it outside the US
would also have run afoul of arms control laws.

Technology changes, and laws change with it. The laws, almost without
exception, lag several years behind the technology.

~~~
mbreese
Yeah, but that was for encryption. Encryption of today would have been
unbreakable in 95. This is for... you know... actual arms.

So, really, the law makes more sense here.

------
kevcampb
There seems to be a lot of assumption that the govt is somehow
misunderstanding technology or the internet. I doubt they expect to prevent
the distribution of those files, or that they even care about the printed gun
- as others have said, it's not really anything new as there are existing ways
to make one.

What they probably do care about is Cody Wilson trying to build up some sort
of cult around 3d weapon printing. He's spent quite a bit of effort trying to
provoke the government and prove he can't be stopped. Seems he was wrong.

~~~
zero_intp
while I think cody is a repulsive regressive snot, I would risk my life to
defend his words. I feel his files are his words.

As for cults, the USG just played directly into Cody's hands... the files have
now spread father and wider than if the USG had just ignored them in the first
place.

------
JohnGB
I suddenly have an urge to make one that I never had before...

------
johnpowell
I downloaded the file. I was curious to look at it and I am not all that
impressed. It isn't amazing mechanical engineering. And I have a shotgun I
bought a block from my house for 99 bucks and there was one page of paperwork
and I used a expired ID card to buy it. It isn't hard to get a gun.

I'm actually pretty excited about the plastic gun thing. It is way less
fingers that can pull the trigger on guns that are already really easy to get.

Edit: I should that I am for really strict gun laws. My father was killed by a
gun that was bought in a pawn shop so if you even save a few people a year it
is worth it.

------
bnc932
Unless I'm missing something, you will still need to purchase ammo to use in
your 3D-printed gun, or else it will be useless. Are the sales of ammunition
in the US completely unregulated?

~~~
hfsktr
When I worked at a place that sold ammo as far as I can remember we didn't
have to track anything special. Guns had all kinds of tracking and
restrictions, magazine sizes had restriction (for at least 5 states) but ammo
seemed to be just fine. Since it was an internet store most of the orders were
CC but even then we'd have the address we shipped to but it isn't like the ATF
came in and asked about ammo. They would ask about the guns and make sure we
were compliant there.

I get the nagging feeling that I had heard of some sort of tracking before but
I can't recall any detail to search on. For all I know it might have just been
a rumor and that increased our sales and that's what I heard.

Wal-Mart limits sales per customer per day[1].

[1][http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732329370457833...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323293704578332561074939182.html)

~~~
hga
As the article indicates, Wal-Mart's limits are only due to the severe, we've
never seen anything like it before, post-Newton ammo shortage. My other
comment in this subthread addresses the existing limits as I know them.

------
msgilligan
$100 to the first person that can encode the plans on a t-shirt (but you have
to send me a shirt)

~~~
jayrobin
A QR code can store 2,953 bytes. If you were just encoding compressed vertex
data it might be enough (depending on the complexity of the model - I haven't
seen it myself).

------
vy8vWJlco
"In Canada, it is legal to download the instructions, but there is a question
of whether Canadians can legally print the components."

(from
[http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2013/05/09/technolog...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2013/05/09/technology-3d-printed-
gun-crackdown.html) )

That's not especially significant in itself either, only somewhat reassuring
for any Canuckois out there wishing to download the models.

------
indrax
[http://www.scribd.com/doc/140471313/Letter-from-
Department-o...](http://www.scribd.com/doc/140471313/Letter-from-Department-
of-State-to-Defense-Distributed)

The letter references a number of items besides the printable gun, including
"125mm BK-14M high-explosive anti-tank warhead" Which sounds rather closer to
matching the intent of the munitions export regulations.

~~~
fleitz
It's just another file on the defcad site, usual government confusion around
files hosted on the internet.

You can pick up most of what you need to know about anti-tank warheads from a
Tom Clancy book, or any library book about shaped charges.

For most people an anti-tank warhead is going to be useless in the context of
how to disable a tank.

~~~
tomjen3
Can you expand on your last sentence?

~~~
fleitz
You need a way to deliver the warhead perpendicular to armour plate of the
tank with sufficient force to disable the various safeties. If you don't
accomplish all those things then the shaped charge will do virtually nothing
to the armour plate.

As far as I know it's difficult to 3D print 88mm cannons.

------
jbester
Keep in mind, ITAR and AECA regulations are concerned with export weapons and
weapons systems to non-US entities. The munitions list (USML) includes
everything from guns to airplanes. The regulations themselves go well beyond
physical assets and include related software, documentation and design
drawings. It is likely DEFCAD, if they survive any fines, could reopen if they
can somehow verify the downloader does not require an export license.

This is the same set of regulations Robert Gates famously complained[1]
restricted the export of F16 spare parts from the US. This platforms has been
widely exported and this regulation applies to non-weapons related components
i.e., canopy latches, flaps, etc.

[1] <http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/21/world/21export.html?_r=0>

------
toolslive
right... so you're not allowed to download the plans for a gun, but you _are_
allowed to buy a rifle for a 5 year old. For me, it seems this is just someone
trying to protect their income.

~~~
hga
Only parents can judge when children are mature enough to wield guns, and
obviously some will get it wrong. My father started directly teaching me how
to shoot when I was around 6. At 3, he would start taking me and later my
siblings with him when he went hunting, so he started teaching by example at
that age.

His guns were never locked up, our parents "gun proofed" us, taught us about
danger and responsibility. They're from the Silent Generation, it was assumed
back then. Heck, my father and many of his classmates would store their
hunting guns in their school lockers so they wouldn't have to go back home
before hunting after school.

------
digitalengineer
(Parts of) weapons is just the beginning. After the Music and Film industry,
will we now see the manufacturing industry go after individuals sharing 3D
maps of 'their' content?

------
dsrguru
Looks like I wasn't far off... <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5661443>

------
lispm
There is some chance that these guys will be killed by guns of their own
design. Possibly a cool attempt to get the Darwin award.

------
dlitz
That letter is surprisingly polite.

~~~
smsm42
Yeah, also when the suspect is taken into the police car, they ensure he
doesn't bump his head on the roof, I've seen it. Doesn't change the fact he's
taken into custody, though.

------
yoster
I live in the U.S. and I am raising an eyebrow at this. For the rest of the
world, I understand the need for this, but the easy access to guns we already
have in the states would make it skeptical on why you would want one of these.
I guess it would be for curiosity for some, but I would rather stick to my AK
and shoot thousands of rounds reliably. I am a firm believer of "to each their
own" so if people want to make these, I am all for it. If they blow up their
face in the process of shooting, oh well. In a different perspective, I would
rather build a gun with my hands as I am a firm believer of do it yourself.

