
Ask HN: Is it sane to ask for a non Apple PC when starting at startup? - VeriPine
Just about to graduate from college at the age of 24 and got a great offer from a startup.  One thing I noticed though during my interviewing was that everybody used Macbooks or iMacs. I mean everybody.<p>I am an open source guy who has used Linux as his OS of choice for as long as he can remember.  It&#x27;s just what feels natural to me.<p>I should say this is for an SRE position rather than developer.<p>So to ask, is it sane to ask for something like this or just go with what they give me and deal with it by acclimating?
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patio11
Many startups have a de-facto or de-jure "pick your own hardware" policy. You
may be just seeing a Mac monoculture rather than a corporate policy. That's
quite common in some language communities -- I used to joke back when I was
doing Rails on Vista that this excluded me from talking at any Rails
conferences.

Worst-case scenario is they say "Oh, we only provision stock MBPs" and then
you use Parallels or VMWare to boot into your favorite flavor of Linux. It is
highly, HIGHLY unlikely that they'll micromanage that decision.

Also: welcome to adulthood. You are hereby authorized to speak to colleagues
at your workplace about issues like this without asking permission from
anyone.

~~~
bradleyland
Great advice as usual, but I'd point out that the last line is the most
important one. No two workplaces are the same, and opinions rarely fit neatly
in to bucketed categories like "can use Linux" and "can't use Linux". There's
always some subtlety that blurs the lines.

The best thing to do is to talk to potential employers. Be sure to make an
honest effort to understand why they have the policies that they do, and
remember that you don't have an experience managing _n_ employees, so you may
not be familiar with the challenges inherent to an environment where managers
are outnumbered by 10:1.

Every moment you spend understanding their viewpoint will allow you to better
articulate how your desire to use Linux fits in to their model.

------
duncan_bayne
I'm working for a startup right now, using a Lenovo ThinkPad running Linux.
Most developers who've worked here use Apple products running OSX.

Leaving aside the virtues of Linux vs. OSX as a development environment, I'd
use this as a litmus test. If your request for a Linux box is refused, run for
the hills. It's as bad a sign as being forced to wear a suit and tie.

Re. OSX vs. Linux: my opinion, having spent years using Windows, Linux
(various flavours), OSX and a little FreeBSD: OSX is better than Windows for
software development, but that's as far as it goes. It's still a locked-down
proprietary imponator that you'd do well to avoid.

~~~
cpncrunch
I guess it depends what kind of development you're doing. If you need to use
XCode and/or test on Safari then OSX is required. You can also reliably run
Windows and Linux VMs on Apple hardware, but not vice-versa.

Also, Macbook Pros are incredibly well built hardware, compared to the typical
Thinkpad.

I'd recommend that the OP try using a Macbook Pro if he/she hasn't used them
before. You might be pleasantly surprised. I think it might be better to be a
little bit open-minded when considering a job, rather than rejecting them if
they don't let you use linux. Ask them what their reasons are for using Apple
hardware.

~~~
ekianjo
> Also, Macbook Pros are incredibly well built hardware, compared to the
> typical Thinkpad.

They are built to be monoliths that cannot be opened and tweaked with. I'm not
sure how you can say it's well built hardware if one cannot interact with it
at all. On a Thinkpad, I can upgrade the memory, add a SSD on top of my base
hard drive, remove and replace the LCD screen, completely replace the
keyboard... and of course change the battery - and everything just works.
That's incredibly well built -modular- hardware, without any stop needed at
your local Lenovo shop to change anything.

~~~
alextgordon
Just take it to the hardware repair shop and spend more time with your family.

~~~
toast0
Taking a laptop to a shop to get a disk replaced is probably more time
consuming than doing it yourself, if you're using a well designed laptop that
makes it easy to replace.

------
jhugg
View from the other side a bit. I've been the de-facto hardware purchaser for
my startup as it's grown from 3 to 50 people.

We used to be close to 50/50 mac/linux and would let you get whatever you
want. Over the years, we've noticed people with linux spend a much larger
portion of their time dealing with some issue or another than their mac
comrades. If we need to swap their box, they spend more time getting it back
to the way they like it. They also have more trouble with projectors and with
web conferencing software (1). Finally, when something does break, we're about
5 minutes from the apple store.

We're now pushing much harder for people to buy mac laptops and then offering
to put a tiny i7 linux desktop on their desk if they want it. And of course
we've got racks of linux servers in the closet for people to use.

That said, if you really want a linux laptop or desktop. I'll buy you one.

-

(1) I'm sure you have no problem with projectors and your linux laptop. It
seems to work most of the time, only failing when it's really important. ;-)

~~~
codemac
The startup I've been working at for the last 1.5 years has had the opposite
experience, people are now flocking to linux, we're at just under 33% on
linux.

Also note 100% of development is using at least a virtualbox linux vm either
way.

I think a large part of it is that linux has finally gotten very usable on
specific laptops (lenovo t series, Dell xps), and almost all of our internal
tools are actually just external network endpoints that linux handles
wonderfully (gmail, hipchat, github, etc). Also - recent Mac OS X updates have
had serious stability problems for lots of my coworkers.

Only negative? For a short period I put linux on my macbook air and that was a
massive headache.

~~~
jhugg
Yeah, I don't doubt it. I can only speak from my experience.

------
kaolinite
They probably won't mind if you choose to work on Linux (and as others have
said, if they do it might be a bad sign), but I'd think about a few things
first.

1\. Are they relying on any OS X software? For example, at my last job the
front-end developers relied on Codekit, an app for compiling CSS, etc. Now, it
could totally have been replaced with Gulp or similar - but do you want the
first thing you do when you join the firm to be proposing they alter their
workflow around you?

2\. Whilst you work best on Linux currently, perhaps you could learn to use a
Mac too? Then you have experience with both platforms. You could always use
Linux in a VM as a backup too.

3\. If you have issues as the only person running Linux, you'll have a harder
time fixing them and people will have less time for you. I've seen this a
number of times. People choosing something different to the rest of the team
because they prefer it and it improves their productivity, only for it to
cause trouble (rarely their fault) and them get looked down upon because of
it.

Overall, it probably won't matter - but it might be worth thinking about it.
If there were some other people running Linux too, I'd say go for it. If
you're going to be the only one, you might end up making too many waves - it's
up to you if you're comfortable with that.

~~~
mxxx
At our work we give devs a choice of whatever hardware they want. Mostly that
means Apple hardware, although some people use it to boot Linux VMs. We
believe that if you're given the tools you want, you're able to work at your
best. But having said that, there are plenty of instances where the one dude
running Ubuntu can't get some thing working and it ends up eating up a couple
of days of his time (and of course would happen vice-versa if the Apple guy
was the only Apple guy in the office.)

So I'd totally agree with the advice re "if you're going to be the only
one"...

Keep in mind though, if you go for the Apple hardware you're actually free to
use whatever OS you want. You might just boot it straight into your favourite
linux variant, but you'll still have the option to run OSX if need be. And
honestly if you setup your toolkit properly OSX is pretty great, even for
Linux users.

------
NathanKP
At the startup I work at we distribute an Ubuntu VM image powered by Vagrant
([https://www.vagrantup.com/](https://www.vagrantup.com/)) for developers and
they can run it on any host system they want. Of course in practice we all end
up running the VM on macs anyway.

The key is whether you can foster a development environment which is portable
across systems. That is why we develop in an Ubuntu VM, because that way
everyone can run our docker container cluster consistently no matter how their
host system is configured.

If the startup you are working at is developing directly on host machines this
may be your chance to introduce a better pattern of using repeatable,
dependable vagrant environments instead of ad hoc setups. The benefits are
massive, as everyone has the same configuration within the vagrant, and they
can still code in their editor of choice on the host machine using shared
directories inside the VM.

------
48snickers
All our developers are on macs, but not all are on OSX. Plenty use Linux. As a
practical matter, sysops needs to plan on older hardware being reallocated to
other users/uses in the long run. It's nice to have the flexibility to
reallocate machines that can run more or less any OS when that day comes.

------
falcolas
Our policy has always been "if you'll do your own IT work, use whatever you
want."

~~~
coderzach
except you're paying them to do that IT work.

~~~
adrusi
But realistically, if someone wants to manage their own system, they're going
to spend the time working around whatever IT solutions are in place to begin
with.

------
KedarMhaswade
If you are given a choice, then isn't it easier to pick what you are most
familiar with from a productivity standpoint? If your first choice is
rejected, then the question comes as to what the next choice has to offer.
There is no point in being obstinate about using a Mac or not using it. A lot
of FOSS enthusiasts and contributors use a Mac and a great many of them don't.
If, as a matter of principle, you are against a Mac or a PC and would instead
insist on IBM/HP/Dell PC running Linux, assess your principles again
(Remember: I don't always die for my principles, what if they are wrong?). If
they still make sense to you and the company refuses to provide you with that
kind of hardware, reject the offer. Can you? Ultimately what value you produce
with what you have trumps what you have. No?

------
nadc
One of the most useful, and undervalued until you need it, considerations is
hardware support. If they're an early stage startup, it's likely there are no
appointed internal IT staff to help you out when things break. I'd imagine to
most HN users troubleshooting and fixing hardware is fairly trivial but do you
want to spend time doing that when you have outstanding work and a deadline?

AppleCare is frictionless. I've also had OK (but not great) on site warranty
support from Dell.

IMO it's better to save your energy for your work rather than fixing your
tools.

~~~
VeriPine
I mean I do companies honestly expect employees to use applecare themselves?

~~~
nadc
Depends on the size and stage of the startup, so your mileage may vary. I've
worked in startups where it isn't economical to have IT support staff when
everyone is tech literate and can self serve when things break.

Anecdotally - I worked in a startup with 30 employees, half running Apple
hardware and the other half Dell/Lenovo/Build your own. The latter employees
always had a worse time dealing with manufacturers warranties and contractors
to fix their stuff when it broke.

Worth clarifying with your (future?) employer if you're planning on running
hardware distinct from the rest of the company.

------
StevePerkins
I'm currently working for a startup, after spending most of the past decade
working for financial firms and Fortune 500 environments. Being trapped for so
long in the world of "mandatory-Windows-and-you're-lucky-to-get-admin-rights-
over-your-own-machine", I practically jumped at the chance to take a MacBook
Pro instead.

After awhile though, I have to say... "meh". Don't get me wrong, the hardware
is absolutely lovely. Great battery life, eye-pleasing screen resolution,
comfortable keyboard, and the first laptop touchpad I've ever seen that's just
as nice to use as an external mouse.

However, for me there are just as many annoying quirks in OS X as there are in
Windows or Ubuntu/Mint. I dislike the single global menu bar model. I
absolutely HATE HATE HATE the fact that "maximize" means something different
from one moment to the next... that you have to hold down the "Shift" key and
double-click the title bar to make your Chrome window maximize in the expected
manner. Etc.

Moreover, I've become aware that I spend 99% of my day toggling between an IDE
and a web browser, both of which are nearly identical across all platforms. I
can see how UNIX-y underpinnings would help someone who works more closely
with the console or with UNIX-y programming languages. But for me as a Java
guy, it just doesn't matter. If anything, I'm slightly _less_ productive
because I still get the keyboard shortcuts mixed up several times a day.

I'm not trying to hate on my MacBook Pro, it's a great piece of hardware. It's
just that knowing what I know now, I wouldn't spend my _own_ money on one for
personal use. It turns out that my frustrations over the years have had less
to do with Windows itself... and more about the fact of being _told_ to use
Windows. I'm kinda over that now.

~~~
stephenr
The green button has never been a "maximise" button.

For a long time it was just a "zoom" button. Now it's a zoom/full screen
button.

~~~
StevePerkins
Correct, but I didn't mean to refer to the green button. I was simply talking
about double-clicking the Chrome title bar.

By default, this expands Chrome to the "appropriate" size for whichever
website you have loaded in the current tab that moment. To get the normal
maximize effect that one would expect from double-clicking a title bar in
Windows or _any_ Linux desktop environment, you have to hold down the "Shift"
key while double-clicking.

Actually, I'm not sure if it's Google or Apple who is responsible for this
specific issue, but it's inconsistent either way. Chrome doesn't work like
this on any other platform, and none of the other Mac applications I commonly
use (e.g. IntelliJ, Atom, Terminal, Spotify) behave this way on OS X.

~~~
stephenr
Double clicking the title bar has in my experience, _always_ been a synonym
for clicking the non-close, non-minimise/button, on any desktop OS since about
2000 (classic Mac OS had "minimise in place") - on Windows and most Linux DE's
that means maximise. On OS X, it means zoom, which is deliberately _app
specific_ behaviour. I find very few apps that truly need the full size of the
display, and those that do (i.e. IDE's, Photos/iPhoto, etc) usually do just
that when you hit zoom.

If you really want the browser window maximised, scale it up once and if it's
a halfway decent Mac App it will retain that window size & position until you
change it. Or make use of full screen mode for that app maybe?

------
bone_frequency
Speaking as a department leader myself, we all use mac computers here because
we find them to be fantastic allrounders that need a minimal amount of
maintenance, but if we had a newcomer with the request of a pc computer, we
would have no problem with that as long as:

1\. He gets the work done. 2\. His choice of hardware/OS does not become a
timesink.

In other words, in my department you can use whatever you please if you know
what are you doing and you are going to properly deliver the work.

I personally have not seen any company with a mac only policy, but depending
on the size or even the mood of the people in charge they might be annoyed at
the fact that the newcomer does not like a seemingly perfect computer and they
have to buy a new one, so I suggest a bit of caution.

If you are not sure about how will they take it and it worries you, why not
just dual boot whatever OS of choice in that computer, or go for a VM for now
until you can figure them out?

------
kristianp
You could argue that using linux on your machine would improve your insight
into the OS used on production machines.

~~~
stephenr
This is what virtual machines are for. There is 0 chance the setup on a
developer laptop is going to come close to the setup of a production server.

~~~
buro9
Dev laptops can be bootstrapped, build from Salt/Puppet/Ansible, and made to
look extremely like a production server.

The difference in the metal is not a difference in the software (unless you
happen to be doing something very specific to the hardware), and the
difference in desktop environment basically does not matter.

It's very easy to have laptops that are similar to servers... stick Debian on
your server, and (X)Ubuntu LTS on your laptop.

~~~
stephenr
Well already right there you've introduced a different environment - Ubuntu is
based on Debian sure, but it's not like Debian and Ubuntu package versions are
ever in sync.

With Virtual Machines your developers can use an environment that is almost
exactly the same as production, and still use whichever desktop OS they are
most productive in.

------
nmjohn
Have you ever used osx for an extended period of time?

I was in a similar situation to you and I caved and got a macbook when I
started my job. I absolutely love it.

I have my linux desktop at home that I use perhaps 15% of the time, while at
first most of the time I was wanting my linux features on OSX, anymore, its
the other way around.

My point, is I absolutely did not give osx a fair chance before I finally
switched, and I was missing out for years. So I suggest at least consider it.

Having said that - it shouldn't be an issue to get the workstation that is
going to make you the most productive - I guarantee you'll get pushback on the
matter in a similar vein of this comment, but you should be able to get the
computer you need.

~~~
Frondo
As a counterpoint, yes, I have, and I ended up selling the Mac, despite trying
to get used to it for a few months of full-time use. I prefer KDE (and I don't
mess with the settings, I just use the defaults), which I use with Mageia
linux, and yes, it's just a matter of personal preference.

------
nwatson
You can always use VMWare Fusion on the Mac for Linux and Windows VMs. You'll
then have all major platforms covered. Get a 1TB SSD and at least 16GB RAM.

------
Devthrowaway80
Totally sane. Engineering in my company is about 50% Apple, 50% Linux (mostly
Thinkpads.)

Development of some things on a Mac is fine after some adjustment, some things
obviously require a Mac (iOS), and other things come with varying degrees of
pain. I think it's totally reasonable to ask for the tool that'll make you
most productive.

------
ziffusion
Was in same shoes as yourself. Their reason was that IT wanted to deal with
macs only.

If you are on the command line most of the time, you won't miss Linux that
much anyways. The rest you get used to pretty fast. I do like the trackpad on
the mac better than anything I've used ever.

~~~
duncan_bayne
"Their reason was that IT wanted to deal with macs only."

That's what I mean when I suggest fleeing. My personal experience is that
companies that force developers to use any one particular OS are not the
companies I enjoyed working for. It's not so much about _which_ OS, just that
having that sort of decision enforced from on high speaks volumes about the
culture, & whether I'd enjoy it.

YMMV though.

------
brudgers
You're a soon to be recent college grad. Don't stop learning and growing. If
you don't trust the judgement of people with more experience at your workplace
find someplace where you do.

If you do trust it then trust it and learn.

Hood luck.

------
pan69
I run XUbuntu in Virtualbox on my Air as my primary desktop and I rarely touch
OSX, no big deal and does it really matter? I could use some more memory
though but most of the time it works just fine.

------
madengr
At least you work at a place that does not force Windows down your throat. My
employer won't even allow Linux on the network.

~~~
dman
Whats the rationale?

~~~
buro9
Probably doesn't understand the network itself is already run by Linux
machines.

------
WorldWideWayne
Get used to trying new things and go for a Mac since that is what everybody is
using there. You can run Linux in a VM in case you need some tool.

It's more important to be able to work well and communicate with people than
to be comfortable and I feel like being on the same platform is an important
part of accomplishing that.

------
coreyyy
Mac's are known for being worse with Excel and Outlook vs. PC. Just say that,
doubt you'll run into a problem.

~~~
eru
By PC, do you mean Windows? I'm not sure you understand the question..

