
Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes - lifeisstillgood
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461032
======
adriand
Once again I think Canada has set an example for the world with how to do this
properly: permit open and peaceful votes on secession (e.g. of Quebec), treat
the issue as something to be resolved politically and not with the use of
force, and pass legislation to deal with the matter that:

\- mandates that the secession question on the ballot be clear and
unambiguous;

\- requires a clear majority to be considered valid;

\- mandates the involvement of all provinces and First Nations in negotiations
following a vote in favour of secession;

\- and stipulates that secession, if it proceeds, would require an amendment
to the constitution.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act)

~~~
ritchiea
I believe the problem is Quebec has a poor economy and figured to lose out
economically and in subsequent trade deals if they became independent.
Catalonia on the other hand is ~20% of Spain's economy and ~15% of the
population so on the national level there is an interest in keeping Catalonia
as part of Spain against the wishes of the Catalan population. Canada has
leverage if Quebec wishes to secede, Spain doesn't have leverage with
Catalonia.

~~~
VHRanger
A quick googling would show you Quebec is also 20% of Canadian GDP and 15% of
Canadian population.

Quebec moreover cuts off maritime provinces from the rest of Canada

------
627467
I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is
illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and
likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use
of violence to stop the ref game?

This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the
side willing to use violence.

~~~
Aaargh20318
> The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal

How can they be illegal ?

A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they
govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this
government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ?

'The people' are the source of power, they just outsource it to a smaller
group of people through democratic elections for practical purposes. If 'the
people' decide their government's services are no longer needed, then there is
nothing the government can do. It's not their call.

~~~
polack
> A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people
> they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not
> want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously
> illegitimate ?

Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government. Democracy doesn't
mean that you always get the way you want if the majority wants something
else...

~~~
throwawayknecht
> Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government.

I mean, sort of yes, but also Catalonia was annexed within living memory.

~~~
yorwba
What annexation are you talking about? As far as I can tell, Catalonia lost
it's independence with the Nueva Planta decrees in 1716 [0], which is far from
"within living memory".

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nueva_Planta_decrees](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nueva_Planta_decrees)

~~~
occultist_throw
Oh please.

Just because it happened a few hundred years ago, doesnt mean they lost their
own heritage, their language, and their self-determination.

Look no further than Ireland. That battle goes back to Grace O'Malley and
Elizabeth in the 16th'c. In reality, it went further back, to this structure
called the Hadrian Wall, but that's in 1st c.

"Living memory" indeed.

------
Joeri
If this were happening in russia, the EU leaders would have loudly condemned
the human rights violations. The silence from them now is shameful.

~~~
notspanishflu
If this was happening in Russia, nobody would say nothing because there is
nothing to say.

German police in the last G20 (Hamburg) was more violent, for example.

~~~
Mithaldu
> German police in the last G20 (Hamburg) was more violent, for example.

Not even remotely.

------
severino
As a Spanish (not from Catalonia), I'm totally ashamed about what my
government is doing to address a political issue.

------
5_minutes
Indirectly, the Spanish reacting with brute force will just help the Catalans
-- as they're proving their point.

~~~
pjc50
Indeed. If the situation can be de-escalated without more than one or two
people getting killed, then the situation will probably return to the status
quo.

If it escalates to live ammunition in the streets, then Catalonia will have
its martrys and its independence.

------
jostmey
This appears to be one of those cases where the government is going against
its own people. I guess it is up to the people to make sure their voice is
heard and to replace a government that does not serve them.

------
csdreamer7
The pro-Spain arguments here in this post are really poor. The only two good
arguments that on their face are worth looking at are: Catalan's pop is evenly
split on the issue and local officials are pushing it to gain power.

Spain was baited-they took it, and now Catalan's secession movement has
international sympathy.

For abit of context of how something this is handled here in America. In 2015
the US Supreme Court temporary blocked a Native Hawaiian non-profit from
counting votes in what lower courts called a private election (that the
Supreme Court said used public funds granted to that non-profit). The issue
plaintiffs were suing the non-profit over was it was excluded only to what
they considered 'Native Hawaiians'. They wanted to establish a Constitution
for Native Hawaiians for self governance.

[https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-supreme-court-
block...](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-supreme-court-blocks-vote-
counting-hawaii-election-n470401)

[http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/08/29/15...](http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/08/29/15-17134.pdf)

The organization later dissolved from what I read in the Supreme Court's
opinion on sanctions. I had trouble finding more info on it. From what I can
tell the courts barely cared except for the issue of using public money for a
racially exclusive election. This story reminded me of it so I thought it
would add to the debate.

~~~
kgwgk
A more similar situation would have been the Hawaiian government organising a
binding vote to secede from the US in 48 hours (while maintaining the US
citizenship!).

I guess the SCOTUS involvement would have been more intense in that case.

~~~
csdreamer7
Technically the state was involved. They were sued along with the non-profit
in violation of the US Constitution and the Voting Rights Act. You can see
this info with the SCOTUS brief I linked.

~~~
kgwgk
It was involved in a tangential way, doesn't seem comparable.

------
alanfranzoni
The referendum is illegal. Let them vote, then ignore the vote. What's the
point in blocking it?

~~~
notspanishflu
The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens.

If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter
the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule
over the whole.

~~~
dguaraglia
I'm kind of confused by this statement: so you are saying that Catalonia
taking a referendum on what they _themselves_ want to do, is imposing on all
Spanish people, but Madrid commanding the repression is _not_ imposing?

I don't want to start a flamewar, but that looks like a bias you might want to
reflect on.

~~~
notspanishflu
My statement is in the Spanish Constitution, I don't know why you're confused.

~~~
richardwhiuk
The relevance of that being?

------
mercer
So by all means explain to me how I'm being overly simplistic (because I
_feel_ that I am), but while our brains like to ponder the complexities of
this situation, can't we at least conclude that it's a bad thing that
physical, state-backed violence is used to prevent people from doing something
that isn't in any way physically violent (and in fact a rather admired
'action') in itself?

I mean, hell, it's quite possible that even if an overwhelming majority of
Catalonians vote for secession (which I hear is not even likely to be the
case?), reality will get in the way. At the very least even the worst-case
scenario, in my opinion, does not justify physical interference in a non-
violent process.

But again, honestly please correct me if I'm missing something blindingly
obvious.

------
lifeisstillgood
Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden
age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history)

That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong
authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call
democracy (1816,1848 etc)

The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.

~~~
bad_user
I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion
this referendum has nothing to do with democracy.

First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not
only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's
territory is _indivisible_.

If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve
all of Spain's citizens, having as much rights at this point over Catalonia,
as the people living there.

I've said it repeatedly here, so here it is again: I'm getting the feeling
that people don't know what a democracy is.

A democracy isn't only about the freedom to vote. What happened in Turkey for
example isn't democracy, even if a majority is in support of the current
administration. The right to vote means nothing without liberal freedoms or
without the indivisibility of the territory.

In other words, you can't have an "independence" referendum without involving
all the citizens. That's not democracy, but a war declaration.

~~~
kiliancs
Self-determination of peoples is a jus cogens law and a cardinal principle in
international law. It's part of the UN's Charter and it's enshrined in many
international treaties subscribed by Spain and by the European Union.

The Spanish constitution recognizes the right to self-determination inasmuch
as it explicitly enshrines the international treaties that define it.

Spain has always defended that this right to self-determination is confined to
colonies because it would otherwise conflict with the also very important
principle of territorial integrity. However, the International Court of
Justice explained in its Advisory Opinion of 22 July 2010 regarding the case
of Kosovo that “the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is
confined to the sphere of relations between States”. Thus, even unilateral
declarations of independence do not conflict with the aforementioned
principle: “general international law contains no applicable prohibition of
declarations of independence“.

~~~
notspanishflu
But the truth is self-determination is for nations and colonies.

In this case, the right for self-determination is for Spain, not for a part of
Spain.

~~~
sbmassey
I suppose the Spanish government didn't do a good enough job of convincing the
Catalonian people that they are part of Spain.

~~~
notspanishflu
The majority of catalans don't want independence.

The political parties promoting independence represent less citizens than the
political parties that want Catalonia to be part of Spain.

~~~
sbmassey
So really, the Spanish government should just have let the referendum go ahead
peacefully, and thereby have had that fact publicly demonstrated.

------
markvdb
Clearly, identities (Catalan, Spanish, religious, atheist, ...) are very much
layered, personal, and they fluctuate with time. How to reinvent the nation
state (whether the Catalan, the Spanish or any other one) to take that into
account seems to be a largely unanswered question.

Any good reading recommendations on that? Surely, there must be creative
solutions! Maybe information technology can even help technically underpin
progress in this area?

P.S. Good luck to all the Spanish and Catalan people that treat their
neighbours with respect. I hope for a peaceful solution.

------
droopyEyelids
Example of the crackdown on voters.

They seem completely nonviolent to me, even in the face of a disproportionate
response.

[https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/914427797753430017](https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/914427797753430017)

[https://twitter.com/ZabMustefa/status/914406611375894528](https://twitter.com/ZabMustefa/status/914406611375894528)

~~~
fcanela
The woman was not injured by police: she had an accident with the stairs going
to vote.

There are videos with the attack to the police. At the end, there are violent
people with the pacifist voters and not professional policemen too.

EDIT: Evidence asked, here it is
[https://youtu.be/wmLTRluQm94](https://youtu.be/wmLTRluQm94)

EDIT 2: I was asked for source about the women and people manipulating
pictures. Two sources here:
[https://twitter.com/arb149/status/914401352230621184/video/1](https://twitter.com/arb149/status/914401352230621184/video/1)
[http://www.larazon.es/espana/difunden-en-twitter-imagenes-
fa...](http://www.larazon.es/espana/difunden-en-twitter-imagenes-falsas-de-
agresiones-policiales-MM16381814)

~~~
gjjrfcbugxbhf
I've seen no evidence of violent people attacking police.

Edit: well that is evidence - not a huge surprise that things have now
escalated when you have an armed force shutting down an election.

~~~
fcanela
I am uploading it so you can see it. (Nice downvote before letting me prove my
words :) )

~~~
fcanela
I am not excusing neither of the behaviors: both violents and not professional
policemen are doing wrong. All your text is based not in what I said, but in
yours interpretations of my words

I am adding references for the women issue too.

~~~
musage
Well sorry then for reading your brief comments that way. Since my Spanish
sucks I can't blame you.

But come on, we see cops doing things like _jumping on people_. Do their
colleagues protest that? Do they go on strike until such actions are brought
to court? No? Then they're all not "professional" enough in my eyes.

"Unprofessional" also applies to things like saying "hey buddy" to someone at
a traffic stop instead of a more formal greeting. Why do you call the violent
behavior of protesters violent, but violent and kind of sadistic behavior of
police "unprofessional"? And apart from my interpretation, the bit about guilt
not being transferable also stands. And it's not a minor point on the side.

> both violents and not professional policemen are doing wrong

As far as I'm concerned, that's like saying a rape victim is bad at mario
cart. Police violence, any abuses of official authority but certainly such
egregious ones, play in a _completely_ different ball park. And just like the
abuse of authority (and gear) don't justify attacks on cops, attacks on cops
don't justify other abuses.

Thanks for pointing out that one thing was faked, I wish faking something like
that should be punished like committing the act. But I remain in firm
opposition to anyone who uses it to excuse anything else. If you want the
waters muddled that way, accept guilt for anything anyone ever did. If you
don't, don't muddle them. It's a binary choice.

------
dgut
The referendum was ruled illegal by the courts. If we are going to allow all
old tribes of Europe to become their own state, there wouldn't be much left of
Europe. The nation-state and standardization is a European invention and a
successful one. The case for an independent Catalonia isn't on strong grounds
either.

This is no small issue, and Spain is responding accordingly. The message has
to be clear: Spain isn't going to split and we aren't going to allow
tribalists/nationalists to act freely.

They are using rubber bullets to disperse the crowds, that's not exactly a
crime against humanity as some seem to suggest here.

Having lived in Spain for some time, I can say police there is awesome. That
is, friendly and laid back. Once I was caught smoking marijuana in my
apartment (the neighbors called the police because of the loud music) and they
made a couple of jokes and left. Back in Norway, they'd be angry & taken me to
the police station.

~~~
kristiandupont
>They are using rubber bullets to disperse the crowds, that's not exactly a
crime against humanity as some seem to suggest here.

Seriously?! They're not nerf guns, the mossos were banned from using them a
couple of years ago, with good reason!

I am a fellow Scandinavian who lived in Barcelona and though I am not at all
sure that I think independence is a good idea, I think the catalans should be
the ones to decide that and the Spanish reaction to the vote is absolutely
outrageous to me. They could have declared it illegal, and the outcome
invalid. This treatment of peaceful protesters is ridiculous.

~~~
dgut
It's proportional. What are they supposed to use, water balloons?

The naive support for Catalonian nationalists on this site is not surprising,
though.

~~~
gjjrfcbugxbhf
Words and votes - that is what we use in the UK to handle the issue of
Scottish independence. It has proved much better than guns (c/f Scotland and
the troubles in Northern Ireland).

The Spanish police have gone in using force to prevent a democractic process.

~~~
dgut
Afaik the Catalonian separatist movement is a lot larger than the Scottish
one, fueled by the last financial crisis.

I strongly doubt the UK can claim moral superiority above Spain.

~~~
gjjrfcbugxbhf
The Scottish and Catalan separatist movements were actually very similar until
yesterday. Both have so far choosen the democratic route to freedom. In both
nations the support for independence was under 50% but the support for a
referendum to decide the issue was very high. The fact that the Spanish state
used illegal force (some of the police used had no legal basis to enter
Catalonia and the use of rubber bullets by police is not allowed within
Catalonia) to break up a democractic vote will presumably cause the two
movements to diverge now.

Btw no one is claiming moral superiority - merely experience. The UK has a
long history of suppressing independence movements by force and this failing.
With Scotland they finally tried another approach and it seems to work better
so far..

------
tomjen3
This is basically what we are used to seeing from the middle-east, and from
before I was born: South Africa. I don't remember the boycot, but I do
remember my parents of talking about it.

What, if anything, can we do similarly to apply pressure to Spain? What
exports are they depended on? What start-ups are Spanish?

Edit: Downvoted for being against beating up people who are trying to vote?
Really HN?

~~~
LoSboccacc
Lucky you for having an absolute moral compass that immediately recognizes
who’s right and wrong in the conflicts around the world

------
freech
How does voting (on anything) not qualify as speech?

------
faragon
The European Union sides with the Spanish Constitution, supporting the rule of
law, against the regional nationalist revolt [1]. Also, it seems that Russian
"hackers" are helping the rebels [2].

[1]
[https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/15/inenglish/1505463613_51...](https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/15/inenglish/1505463613_515431.html)

[2]
[https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/28/inenglish/1506588970_02...](https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/28/inenglish/1506588970_026442.html)

~~~
adambyrtek
This is from BBC which is generally considered a reliable source. Even if the
referendum is illegal, it doesn't justify violence against peaceful
protesters.

~~~
fcanela
The number of injured have been reported by the Catalan officials, which
benefits from enlarge the amount. Maybe the number is true. I will remain
skeptic until information from several sources is provided.

~~~
kiliancs
Just the amount of people I have seen injured just in the videos being shared
easily reaches the hundred. To be honest, even one case is not acceptable.

