

Moral judgments can be altered ... by magnets - ca98am79
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2010/moral-control-0330.html

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SlyShy
This doesn't surprise me, but it does have worrying ethical implications. What
if there were a machine to make everyone moral? Would it be immoral to use it?
Or would be immoral _not_ to?

Edit with expansion of scenario, so it is clearer what I'm getting at: The
situation I envision is a machine that can be programmed to produce some set
of "morality" as it were. Who gets to decide what the moral system is, and who
it is applied to? Certainly we wouldn't want a corporation or an unelected
body to do it. But we also think the machine would be useful in reducing
senseless tragedy like murder.

~~~
jjs
Use the machine on yourself first.

Then you're guaranteed to make the moral decision.

~~~
SlyShy
I'll give you props for the clever answer that circumvents the question. ;)

~~~
xenophanes
It's a good answer, not just clever. The issue he's addressing, clarified, is,
"What if we had a source of infallible (moral) knowledge?"

Then, "ask that source, not me, you, or any other fallible human" is not just
clever but correct.

However, infallible sources of knowledge badly violate everything we know
about epistemology. So don't expect to actually find one. What interests me
more is this issue:

If I had a magnet that made people act a certain way, and I thought that
certain way was moral/good, then should I use it on people? The answer then is
no, in the event that I disagree with someone about what's good, I shouldn't
force them with magnets; it could be me who is mistaken not them. I should
instead persuade them to use the magnet voluntarily.

What's good about a discussion with attempted persuasion is it _could go
either way_. I could end up persuaded, or him. This is different than using
the magnet which can't go either way, so if it's a mistake there's no
possibility of it being corrected.

~~~
randallsquared
_The issue he's addressing, clarified, is, "What if we had a source of
infallible (moral) knowledge?"_

Er, that's not a clarification of "The situation I envision is a machine that
can be programmed to produce some set of "morality" as it were."

It's a completely different thing.

~~~
xenophanes
> What if there were a machine to make everyone moral?

is the issue addressed by jjs

~~~
randallsquared
But since SlyShy started the thread, and jjs replied to him, I think I'll go
with SlyShy's expansion of what he meant. Feel free to choose for yourself
what SlyShy was talking about, but let's not confuse things by bringing jjs
into it, hm? ;)

Edit: aaaand I missed that the poster you were replying to was _also_ SlyShy,
changing the point of your comment. Nevermind me. Let's move along. Nothing to
see.

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Jach
I remember seeing this before... Humans have very malleable morals. Even just
the phrasing of moral questions can alter judgments far more than these
magnets:
[http://books.google.com/books?id=igN6Q9weoYQC&pg=PA39...](http://books.google.com/books?id=igN6Q9weoYQC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=tamarin+joshua&source=web&ots=UU-Z3a1IWn&sig=INNgmxQHyvvdF_00Z4W3zH0O_sY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#v=onepage&q=tamarin%20joshua&f=false)

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tokenadult
One of the great things about transcranial magnetic stimulation

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulati...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation)

in general is that it is a treatment that can be evaluated in placebo-
controlled studies, because it is possible to put patients into convincing
sham treatments.

<http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html>

Transcranial magnetic stimulation needs a LOT more research, but if treatment
protocols can be refined through that research, it holds promise for improving
outcomes in some patients with mood disorders and perhaps other difficulties
related to abnormal brain function.

~~~
joeyo
Is that actually the case? I'm of the impression that TMS systems 1) are
audibly noisy when in use and 2) evoke activity in the scalp that can be
perceived by the subject ("tingling"). Admittedly, adding sham noise would be
fairly easy, but I am not sure what countermeasures are possible if the
subject can "feel" when TMS is active.

~~~
a-priori
[http://www.plosone.org/article/metrics/info:doi/10.1371/jour...](http://www.plosone.org/article/metrics/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0001923)

~~~
tokenadult
GREAT article, perfectly on-point to the follow-up question about my comment.
Thanks.

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indigoviolet
of course they can, that's how the moral compass works.

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th
"In both experiments, the researchers found that when the right TPJ was
disrupted, subjects were more likely to judge failed attempts to harm as
morally permissible."

This statement is meaningless without knowing how much more likely the
attempts were and what the error range was for the results.

~~~
scott_s
All of that is likely in their academic paper, but it is behind a pay-wall:
[http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/03/11/0914826107.abst...](http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/03/11/0914826107.abstract)

~~~
randomwalker
Here: <http://randomwalker.info/misc/PNAS-2010-Young-0914826107.pdf>

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gxs
I've always wondered if perhaps there is something to astrology after all.

While I can't say I believe in it, what if the earth's magnetic field at
different times of the year affects the way the brain develops?

The possibilities are endless!

~~~
ajj
I suspect this comment would not have been downvoted had it not mentioned the
word "astrology".

~~~
hugh3
Really? It would still be pretty disconnected from reality, mostly because:

a) The Earth's magnetic field is incredibly weak compared to anything you'd
get from transcranial stimulation, and

b) The Earth's magnetic field doesn't change significantly over the course of
the year.

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drawkbox
Amazing stuff. Kinda out there...

I always thought that maybe the earth's magnetic fields can affect cultures in
different areas of the world, leading to different morals really.

I wonder how much this can affect thinking processes and learning as well? For
instance why do cultures on the other side of the world all write seemingly
backwards or from the other side? Russian seems like it is upside down and
backwards to English. Is it just relative cultures or some forces pushing
things to feel natural differently depending on where you are in various
fields.

~~~
a-priori
Whoa there, this isn't the kind of magnet you find on your fridge door. TMS
uses pulses (not static fields) from a 2 tesla magnet. For comparison, the
Earth's magnetic field is 31 µT and a fridge magnet is 5 mT.

But, the fact that it's a pulse is the more important than the field strength:
the goal is to produce a current in the brain via Faraday's law. In order to
do that, you need a magnetic flux, and therefore a rapid change in the field
strength. Sitting in a magnetic field, no matter how strong, is not going to
induce a current.

tl;dr: Any theories about the Earth's magnetic field affecting moral judgement
are bull. Ditto for everyday magnets.

(Correction: I just read the paper. They used a 3T field in this study, not
2T.)

~~~
cj
"When you open your mind to the impossible, sometimes the truth is revealed"

~~~
gloob
And the rest of the time, nonsense is revealed.

~~~
epochwolf
This makes me think that if you speak nonsense you have a random chance of
getting something brilliant out. My brother is like that, it's damn annoying
most of that time.

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greenlblue
umm... Am I the only one that sees something wrong with this? We'll mess with
your brain's ability to function and then give you some kind of test to see if
indeed your brain is malfunctioning in some way. This is just retarded. I'd go
as far as to say the region of the brain that the magnet is pointed at has
nothing to do with morality. All they are doing is hindering the brain to do
what it usually does.

~~~
cj
Are you completely against medical research? The researchers are deactivating
a specific area of a person's brain (temporarily, and without surgery) to
observe its effects on behavior and judgment. This research, in turn, might
contribute to eventually alleviating the devastating behavioral changes some
stroke victims may experience.

I don't see anything wrong with this research.

~~~
greenlblue
You know I'm getting really tired of people misrepresenting what I said by
interjecting a question that had nothing to do with what I was saying. My
point was the brain is more interconnected than people admit and of course if
you mess with some parts of it you are going to get impaired functioning. How
is this research? Take a really complicated biological system and deactivate
some part and observe the cascade. I expect more from people with a Ph.D.
getting millions of dollars in funding. You don't need a theory to do this
kind of research. All you need are some fancy toys.

~~~
cj
By your philosophy, we should abandon research on the brain because its
complexity is overwhelming.

The PhD's that you are undermining are not intimidated by its complexity, and
are trying to better understand functioning within the brain. Bottom line. In
my opinion, that is respectable and worth the effort.

The better question is: In your opinion, how could research on the brain be
improved? How should it be performed? Do you believe research on the brain
should be encouraged?

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greenlblue
What philosophy? You read 3 of my sentences and extrapolate a philosophy?
Intimidated Ph.D's? You still haven't addressed the fact that a powerful
magnet is being pointed at an extremely complicated, interconnected,
biological system in order to hamper its functions. Ya, I understand that on
some tests people are going to perform worse because a powerful magnet is
messing with their brain. Is that surprising? No. I would even expect it. Any
layman would.

I believe in clearly delineated research objectives backed by solid scientific
theory and not some toy project that messes with electrical currents in the
brain jazzed up by moral and ethical philosophy.

~~~
corruption
You assert that this research is just "a toy project that messes with
electrical currents in the brain jazzed up by moral and ethical philosophy".

Where is your evidence that it isn't "clearly delineated research objectives
backed by solid scientific theory"?

Surely, occams razor suggests to me that people actively researching in the
field aren't complete morons, and have some idea of what they are doing
relative to someone who (assumingly) has no experience in this field. What
evidence do you have for your conclusions?

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shawndumas
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M-vnmejwXo>

