
23andMe Informed Me My Husband and I Are Related - duman
https://www.thecut.com/2018/12/23andme-informed-me-my-husband-and-i-are-related.html
======
throwyawaaaa
I work in genomics. My lab, many of my friends and acquaintances work in
genomics or had to dabble with it for at least one of their projects. You
would think we would all be fascinated by this stuff, getting to know your own
DNA and everything. Yet I don't know a single person who would even consider
using 23andMe's service.

To me this is all an elaborate scam. Why on earth would _you pay them_ to
_give_ them _your data_?! At least with Google et al. we know that if you are
not paying for the product, you _are_ the product. With this company you end
up $100 (or whatever) short _and_ you surrender your data for it to be sold to
advertisers, insurance companies and whatnot. And not just stupid things like
your Amazon shopping history or your latest Tinder conversations (which are in
themselves pretty _damn_ intimate if you ask me) but the most intimate thing
of all. I actually disagree with behavioral genetics/sociobiology
fundamentalists who think there's little more to the self than one's DNA, but
just because one cannot make much out of it doesn't mean it can't be misused.
If Gattaca implications sound scary, imagine what would happen if the decision
makers had no idea what they were doing in the first place.

Because that's where we are at this point: just because X variant is
associated with Y% more incidence of whatever disease does _not_ mean extra
care should be taken regarding risk factors, insurance policies, etc. The
correlations are interesting when combined with other data but most of the
time we have no idea what's going on and what it is that makes variant X cause
disease Y, if it does at all. Doesn't mean it won't be misused.

Please people, don't pay to get your data swindled out of you. Stop with this
weird fascination with your DNA, and stop trying to look for an answer when
are barely asking the questions.

~~~
emilburzo
Allow me to offer a different perspective: I've used 23andme and it was one of
the best decisions ever.

Not so much for the Ancestry part, which was also interesting and explained my
above-average cold tolerance, but for the health stuff.

Granted, being from Europe they don't directly offer health services, but you
can get the raw data and upload it to various sites for interpretation --
ranging from really accessible to follow-the-rabbit-hole style.

I've accepted from the start that everything is uncertain, or just a
possibility, but it was still very useful, because I knew what to look for and
thus able to validate easily if true or not.

Some things that were in the reports I already knew, some I suspected, some I
had no idea and would have never guessed -- this last group had the most
impact.

Some examples: allergies, motion sickness, needing above average amounts of
vitamin C.

All very easy to test, but with an amazing quality of life improvement gained
as a result of just changing some simple things.

So yes, a US company has my personal DNA data, maybe they will take care of my
privacy, maybe not, but the quality of life gains were worth it, for me.

What other alternative would people like me have, from countries where there
is no access to good doctors, of finding stuff like that, had there not been
23andme? Especially since I didn't even know what I was looking for.

~~~
NicoJuicy
Since you are from Europe, shouldn't you be able to use GDPR on them?

~~~
emilburzo
Good idea, I hadn't thought of that.

Looks like they even have a nice page about it:
[https://www.23andme.com/gdpr/](https://www.23andme.com/gdpr/)

------
cgrand-net
According to "An Association Between the Kinship and Fertility of Human
Couple"
([http://science.sciencemag.org/content/319/5864/813.long](http://science.sciencemag.org/content/319/5864/813.long)),
third (or fourth) cousins have optimal reproductive success. Reproductive
success is not just the number of children (because 1st or 2nd cousins couples
tend to have more children but with associated health and/or reproductive
problems), but the whole descendance.

------
em3rgent0rdr
This is not a big deal. In fact likely better fertility for them: a 2008
deCODE study results show that couples related at the level of third cousins
have the greatest number of offspring, with the greatest reproductive success
observed for couples related at the level of third and fourth cousins. [1]

[1]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18258915?ordinalpos=1&it...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18258915?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

~~~
mrunkel
I would be enormously surprised if genetic factors were the primary driver in
this. I would think cultural norms and socio-economic factors would be the
greatest predictors of the number of offsprings.

I could easily envision that those same factors could contribute to a rise in
intermarriages between 3rd and 4th cousins. For example, in small communities
like "hill people" in the Appalachians, or the Hasidic community in NY.

~~~
loseyourslinky
The study is specifically of native Icelander's, between 1800 and 1965.

------
russellbeattie
The sociological effects of DNA matching sites are going to be interesting to
watch. I personally found out a year or so ago that my dad wasn't my
biological father. At the age of 45, that's an, um, _interesting_ secret to
suddenly discover.

Now, imagine what happens in a society with strict laws/rules/mores about this
sort of thing? Well, we won't have to imagine for long. I'm quite sure my
experience is a lot more common than most people realize, and I think much of
the world isn't ready for it.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> I'm quite sure my experience is a lot more common than most people realize,
> and I think much of the world isn't ready for it.

Nonpaternity is quite rare overall, and still unusual even when the putative
father has so little paternity confidence that he demands a paternity test.

[https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/12/04/how-paternity-
test...](https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/12/04/how-paternity-testing-is-
like-international-trade/)

~~~
eesmith
I wonder if there how those low numbers have changed over time. I ask from
personal history.

My grandfather was away in WWII when one of my aunts was conceived. As my
grandmother put it, she was lonely.

All of the adults at that time knew, but kept it a secret. None of the kids
knew until that aunt was about 45 and diagnosed with a cancer ... with a
genetic susceptibility passed down though the male line. My grandparents
figured it was time to reveal that secret.

I therefore conjecture that the numbers in the US were higher during WWII.

------
ig1
It's touched upon in the article, but in reality they're probably not third
cousins.

23andme gives relationship estimates for people based on percentage of dna
shared, these estimates are based general population data. However they're not
accurate for endogamous population like Ashkenazi Jews.

Any two Ashkenazi Jews who get married are likely to show up as cousins to
each other, simply because there's so much shared DNA within that community.
This isn't an exceptional case, but rather the norm for such populations.

------
spacehome
You share (about) 1/128 of your genes with a third cousin. The chance of any
(particular) recessive trait being passed on from both parents as a result of
the inbreeding is a whopping 1 in 65,536.

~~~
kkarakk
it says in the article that their second kid was autistic.

~~~
spacehome
I guess there’s a chance those facts are related.

~~~
loseyourslinky
Giving birth after 35 (in this case 37) is statistically more risky than
offspring from first cousin's. A third cousin is much more distantly related
than a first cousin, your first cousin has a pair of the same grandparents as
you, your third cousin shares a pair of your Great-great-grandparents.

------
cm2187
A relative of mine who is a doctor mentioned to me that the opposite is a
common problem when children volunteer to donate an organ to a parent. They
must test for DNA compatibility which often yields bad surprises. Apparently
it is gradual. The DNA of the first child almost always matches, the second a
little less, the third is where the odds reduce significantly.

Granted that was in France...

~~~
narag
That's not the opposite, it's the same thing looking from a different place.

~~~
JdeBP
A different position is the primary meaning of "opposite". It does not
necessarily mean "contrary".

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yakshaving_jgt
I'm curious of the legitimacy of this story, given one of the comments at the
bottom:

> Don’t believe the results. I’m retired FDA and investigated this company
> since its inception. 23and me swabs go to labcorp in NC. They aren’t a lab.
> They take the results and issue what is tantamount to a horoscope based on
> your demographic information. Save your $100 or whatever they are charging
> now.

~~~
svet_0
This is a ridiculous claim. It might be less accurate than other options
(although I doubt that), and misses some genetic features (repeats,
insertions, translocations or deletions), but there's a huge distance between
that and "a horoscope based on your demographic information".

------
baddox
Third cousins sounds like a non-issue to me, and it sounds like the author and
spouse generally agree. I've never knowingly met any _second_ cousins or any
other descendants of my great-grandparents (who are not also in my
grandparents' lineage).

I wonder if there are any estimates on how common unaware third-cousin
marriages are.

~~~
cimmanom
It’s interesting how much that can vary. I’ve met every one of my second
cousins on 3 out of 4 family branches (one grandparent was estranged from
their family). Those who live nearby I’m closer with than first cousins who
live further away.

My and my siblings’ children will also know some of their third cousins, and
see them at least once every few years at holidays.

I’ve met a couple third cousins, and am fairly certain with any others (aside
from that one branch of the family), we’d discover our relationship well
before being together long enough to consider marriage.

That said, I wonder to what degree physical proximity plays a role. If the
second cousins didn’t for the most part live in the same metro area as the
entire rest of the family, we’d probably see them even more rarely than the
set of first cousins who live a 3-hour flight away - which is to say, roughly
once a decade.

~~~
baddox
It is fascinating how people grow up with such varying connections with their
extended family. Even growing up I would only see my grandparents, aunts and
uncles, and first cousins once or twice a year at major holidays.

Most years there would be a nearby annual family reunion of my mother’s
mother’s parents’ lineage. I remember it mostly as a lot of older people I
didn’t know, and none of them lived near me (the venue was a 2-3 hour drive
from where I grew up, and I don’t know how far other people drove.)

But in my high school class there were definitely lots of people who seemed to
be cousins with each other, and had massive family reunions in town. In high
school my friends always joked about these extended family events as a hassle,
but part of me thinks that perhaps I missed out on something there.

It’s interesting to think about the factors that influence a child’s
experience with extended family. I grew up only two hours from where my mother
grew up, while my father had moved quite far before meeting my mother. My
mother had two siblings and my father had one, which is perhaps on the low
side for America in that time (my parents were born in the 1950s).

Another interesting thing is that I have never met anyone outside my immediate
family with my last name. My father only had one sister, who was married, so
those cousins have a different last name. My father’s father died young (long
before my parents met), and my grandmother remarried, so she had a different
surname for my entire life.

I grew up in a very small town in a rural area, and I would have expected this
to be the sort of place to be where people don’t move far from home and where
extended families stay close together. But even my extended family in the same
US state (but a couple hours’ drive away) was never super close to me. I
barely escaped high school before social media went mainstream, so I wonder if
I would have forged closer relationships with my extended family with the help
of social media.

------
knbknb
Here is the transcript of a recent, interesting audio podcast with Anne
Wojcicki, CEO of 23andMe. [https://www.recode.net/2018/10/20/18002614/anne-
wojcicki-23a...](https://www.recode.net/2018/10/20/18002614/anne-
wojcicki-23andme-dna-fake-science-goop-gwyneth-paltrow-kara-swisher-podcast-
recode-decode) I think what she argues in the podcast is quite reasonable.

Asked about the biggest mistake her startup made in the founding phase, she
answered that " I think that we were overly optimistic about the state of
scientific literacy in this country. "

And that is true in general. I live in Germany, I am a 23andMe customer, and
from my results I learned quite a bit about myself. Locally, whenever I tried
to talk about this genetic testing service, I have never had a deeper
conversation about this subject matter, even with highly educated folks. It's
similar to non-conversations about email encryption and IT security many of
you readers might have had.

------
esturk
The author alluded to the link that her second child is autistic and the
relatedness with her spouse.

But what's more glaring is that her second conception occurred when she was 37
and her husband 39. There are studies that showed the increased incidence of
child autism conceived from older fathers.

------
reacharavindh
Two thoughts came rushing to my mind after reading this.

Disclaimer: I have not researched the scientific background of these thoughts.
They are mere thoughts.

It made me uncomfortable to read about the autistic child at the end of the
story. Was Autism more probable because of the closer genetic relationship of
parents?

I was raised in southern India, and some of our families have a fascinating
astrological tradition about not marrying someone from same "Gothram".

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra)

Is it possible that our ancestors knew that certain genetic combinations were
unhealthy/undesirable even without a scientific background and adopted these
rules for the society?

~~~
gadders
Sadly not all societies/cultures have a taboo against incest:

"Couples who are getting married should be forced to have a DNA test first to
ensure they are not cousins amid growing concern about incest within Pakistani
communities, Britain's first Asian peer has claimed."

[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/children/11723308/Fi...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/children/11723308/First-
cousin-marriages-in-Pakistani-communities-leading-to-appalling-disabilities-
among-children.html)

[EDIT] Additional link from the BBC today:
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-46558932](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-46558932)

~~~
fouc
>Third-degree relatives (such as half-aunt, half-nephew, first cousin) on
average share 12.5% genes, and sexual relations between them are viewed
differently in various cultures, from being discouraged to being socially
acceptable.

Relationships between cousins isn't always considered to be incest. It's more
recent in the last 50-60 years, especially in USA, that cousin marriage is
frowned upon based on misunderstanding the risk.

~~~
Veen
But is that risk not increased when the family has practiced cousin marriage
for many generations?

------
JdeBP
Several commenters in this discussion have taken as read that the couple are
third cousins. Reading the _whole_ article, one finds buried at the bottom the
fact that this turned out to be unproven, because the genetic tests are based
upon general assumptions that are not true for their segment of the
population.

------
petercooper
We're all related, really. It just depends to what degree you want to consider
"related". I'm related to my cat, to you, and even to the tree outside my
office if I go back enough generations.

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funkythings
The author using the word "mansplaining" disqualifies her from any hint of
professionalism

~~~
fouc
The word wasn't used in the pejorative sense in the article.

~~~
nextlevelwizard
Considering how this and my comments have been flagged we hit right on the
mark. You can't casually use sexist remarks towards women, but apparently not
only is it OK to use them towards men, but mentioning it as negative results
into flagged post.

------
nextlevelwizard
>Doug: (mansplaining)...

and that's where the value of the blog post ends

~~~
akamel
it was a joke

~~~
odiroot
The point still stands. We cannot allow to normalise such toxic language.

------
tapland
We are all related.

It's not surprising some third cousins find out they are related. Maybe a fun
read, but is it of any importance?

