
Why Some Cultures Frown on Smiling (2016) - dsr12
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/05/culture-and-smiling/483827/?single_page=true
======
georgecmu
Sensationalist oversimplification.

For Russians, a smile serves a different function than for Americans. It's not
used for communicating with others and does not serve as a social marker of
openness or good mood. The social expectation is that a smile must always be
prompted by something, whether it's someone's joke, or a humorous occurrence,
or even own embarrassment.

People don't smile in posed group photos for the same reason sitters don't
smile in Renaissance portraits. Does it really follow that smiles and laughter
are alien to these weird people?

[https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+cadets+smiling+milit...](https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+cadets+smiling+military+parade&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7oNz_1NDWAhVQxWMKHWoZD7UQ_AUICigB&biw=1281&bih=705#imgrc=m_V_OFNM0H1m_M):

~~~
shmerl
_> the social expectation is that a smile must always be prompted by
something_

Well, that's exactly the point that's interesting to analyze. I.e. _why_ there
is such social expectation.

~~~
dotancohen
> why there is such social expectation.

Do you consider laughing at people at random to be socially acceptable? Why
would smiling be fine but laughing not be?

Now the question becomes, _why_ do some cultures have the social expectation
that an impromptu smile is acceptable?

~~~
shmerl
See elsewhere in this thread. Cultures where smiles aren't common usually have
something social attached to it. I.e. bloody historic past, constant
instability and so on.

So I don't see here anything out of the ordinary. It's quite an expected
effect on human emotions.

~~~
coldtea
> _Cultures where smiles aren 't common usually have something social attached
> to it. I.e. bloody historic past, constant instability and so on._

That's the premise of the article, but it's shody and hand wavy at best.

------
coldtea
> _Krys focused on a cultural phenomenon called “uncertainty avoidance.”
> Cultures that are low on this scale tend to have social systems—courts,
> health-care systems, safety nets, and so forth—that are unstable. Therefore,
> people there view the future as unpredictable and uncontrollable. Smiling is
> a sign of certainty and confidence, so when people in those countries smile,
> they might seem odd. Why would you smile when fate is an invisible wolf
> waiting to shred you? You might, in those “low-UA” countries, even be
> considered stupid for smiling. Krys also hypothesized that smiling in
> corrupt countries would be, um, frowned upon. When everyone’s trying to pull
> one over on each other, you don’t know if someone’s smiling with good
> intentions, or because they’re trying to trick you._

Sounds a little sketchy to me. For one, tons of e.g. African, Latin American,
etc countries are way more unstable and/or corrupt than the Eastern
Europe/Russia countries the author mentions and yet they smile all the time
without an issue.

Heck, he has Japan, France and South Korea high in the "unsmiling" countries
and Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Philippines, China etc high in the "smiling" ones -- I
guess no corruption on the latter group.

All the data table shows it "fuck if we know the actual reason" and not "it's
corruption and lack of trust".

------
aeriklawson
There's a point to be made by (sometimes snarky) non-Americans about the
stereotypical "dumb, always smiling" American - there are times when it _is_
insincere or a bit unnecessary and I think that this _is_ unique to America. I
also find this stereotype to vary by location - it's more apparent when
venturing down South, for example, but less so in a place like NYC.

That being said, and this is anecdotal, but I've had experiences from all over
the country - I've lived in the Northeast, spent extensive time and have
family in the South, etc; a lot of the time people _are_ smiling genuinely or
being cheerful with purpose. Most of the time it's not a facade, naivety, or
sign of stupidity, as some would like to think.

Is it really hard to consider the possibility that Americans just have a more
positive attitude? And why is that a bad thing?

~~~
programmarchy
I saw a lot of this with tourists posing for pictures at the 9/11 memorial in
NYC. Cringe. There are times when it is absolutely inappropriate to smile.

~~~
aeriklawson
Sure, I totally agree.

I was referring to more "day to day" attitudes than situational though.

------
shmerl
_> It’s evidence that you’re a fool—a tricky fool._

I'd say it's not as much a sign of trickery, as a sign of inner confidence, or
to put it better, inner freedom. That's already standing out in 1984-like
society, or society described in "Collective responsibility"[1][2]. And
standing out there could bears risks. So no smiling can be perceived as an
implicit defensive expression.

[1]:
[https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Скованные_одной_цепью](https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Скованные_одной_цепью)

[2]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0QuEpg4V4U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0QuEpg4V4U)

------
teddyh
> _Why do some societies not encourage casual smiling?_

Because smiling is a thing you do (as opposed to something you actively avoid
doing), and doing something with no reason is silly.

> _Russian women do not have to worry about being instructed by random men to
> “smile.”_

That’s also a very good reason.

~~~
watwut
Is the stranger men telling women to smile really the thing in America?

~~~
danans
Perhaps in the older generation it may have been tolerated, but in the current
generation it would considered be very offensive.

It's a behavior outside of the norm and associated with men who don't respect
social boundaries with women for whatever reason.

------
adambmedia
Reminds me of when my wife conveyed enthusiasm about her tech job to some
family and friends of family back in France, how interesting the work was,
creative, etc, only to have them snicker and declare, "look at you, so
American now, you can't stop smiling." And yes, the connotation was something
like vanity and superficiality.

------
Mikeb85
Knew this would be about Russia.

I've often heard it said that the Slavic soul is one of constant malaise. Who
knows if it's true, but living up in an inhospitable climate and 1000 years of
war and strife can certainly shape a culture.

My Ukrainian family also never smiles, even at the happiest of times it was
barely more than a smirk, and laughter was never really a thing. No smiles in
photos, ever. Yet all were stoic and content, probably happier than most.

~~~
DenisM
Which part of Ukraine, if you don't mind sharing?

~~~
Mikeb85
Ukrainian Canadian, so western Ukraine, was part of the Austro-Hungarian
empire. Even though several generations grew up here, my family mostly lived
in an ethnic enclave, I'm the first who doesn't speak Ukrainian.

------
fulafel
The extremes in the graph are interesting - Japanese think smilers are the
stupidest, Germans think they're the smartest but not that honest. The Swiss
think smilers are very smart and very honest, Iranians think they are studpid
and dishonest.

------
gerdesj
This is fascinating stuff. Ta to whomever put it here for broadening my
horizons a bit.

I've been aware that my general cultural norms are not transferable worldwide
but I'd always considered smiling a universal human thing that worked
everywhere as a sign of friendliness.

Many cultures nod their head for yes and shake for no. Some do the reverse.
This I get (eventually) but smiling - really? Well, yes ... why not?

I think that there is a more fundamental thing to smiling/frowning/scowling as
opposed to nodding and shaking the head as expressions.

It's complicated.

~~~
ganeshkrishnan
>smiling a universal human thing that worked everywhere as a sign of
friendliness

Smiling is always a sign of friendliness. It's just that some places you
cannot expect to smile at nothing and will end up looking silly. In those
places even small talk is frowned upon unless you really want to be their
friends.

The author missed the most important part in this: In these countries you
cannot be friendly and not be friends. In western countries it's polite to
smile and be friendly to strangers but we do not expect them to become our
friends

>Many cultures nod their head for yes and shake for no. Some do the reverse.

I am not sure if you are thinking of India and it's a general stereotype that
Indians do it reverse but we nod for yes and shake for no like the rest of the
world with two exceptions: It's rude to say no to seniors in most asian
cultures so juniors always say yes AND we have a third head shake which means
I agree/ You are correct/ I will do it/Subject to interpretation

~~~
int_19h
He's probably thinking about Bulgaria, which is famous for this.

~~~
gerdesj
Yes I was - never been to India but I have been to Bulgaria.

------
dsabanin
To me a much simpler explanation is that people in Russia are incredibly sad
and life there is very sad and hard. However almost no one there realizes it
until they get out for a prolonged period of time.

Me and my wife were born and spent most of our life in Russia, we were pretty
well of and yet since moving to US we realized how sad it actually was.

The collective consciousness of Russia is still heavily polluted with pain,
fear, uncertainty and mistrust of everyone because of the terrible events that
unfolded throughout it's history, but mostly in 20th century. Millions were
murdered and executed during and after the revolution, more were executed
before 2nd world war, 10s of millions died in the 2nd world war.

Repressions, starvation, constant economic struggles nullifying people's
saving and results of life's work and at the end of work life, a sight of a
miserly pension that unifies everyone, regardless of previous status in life,
in poverty. Most old people who live on a pension look like homeless people in
US.

Russian families mostly are highly codependent and dysfunctional, a lot of men
drink and women resort to constant unhappy nagging and displeased demeanor. A
lot of spouse relationships play out the role child/parent, where the wife is
being a parent and husband is being unruly child, avoiding the
responsibilities and hiding from the consequences. Public displays of
affection are almost non-existant, very hard to find genuinely happy couples,
especially those who've been married for a while.

The country itself has terrible ecology, most cities struggle with crazy
levels of pollution because of the car traffic and factories built within city
limits. A lot of cars are from soviet times so they produce a lot of smoke,
sometimes after a bus passes you by you can't see anything because of the
clouds of black smoke.

The cities are covered in soot and the roads are covered in dirt, sand and
road salt. That dirt is everywhere, covering the trees, cars, houses. It's
unthinkable to live in Russia and don't clean you shoes every couple of days,
because they get very dirty. After every rain the dirt is everywhere. All of
this combined makes cities look grey, especially during the spring, winter and
fall, excluding the short summer period that lasts usually around 3 months
where green of the trees and grass dilutes all of this a bit.

Don't take my word for it, here's the real Russian news site of the city
Krasnoyarsk, population 1 mil. It shows center of the city:

[http://prima-
tv.ru/news/incidents/43896-sosulka_ubila_muzhch...](http://prima-
tv.ru/news/incidents/43896-sosulka_ubila_muzhchinu_v_centre_goroda/)

To me all of that explains really well why there's not much to smile about. If
you're smiling without a reason people see you as someone who have things
going well and feel jealousy and want to bring you down in their own heads to
justify their own misery.

A lot of people in Russia leave in the denial of the true causes of their
suffering and unhappiness and I'm sure they'll downvote this.

~~~
DenisM
Ukraine was hit just as hard during the 20th century, if not harder, and yet I
have observed the inhabitants of Kiev to be the most cheerful and smiling
people (that was 20 years ago).

~~~
dsabanin
I completely agree with your assessment, and that leads me to believe that the
Ukrainians and Russians do in fact have different cultures.

A lot of countries have been hit pretty hard during 20th century, but Russians
were especially cruel to their own people and I believe that cuts much deeper.
For example Golodomor in Ukraine is thought of as an external act of violence
of Russians / Soviets, while concentration camps, mass executions in Soviet
Russia were all done by Russians to Russians.

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
The article reconciles with my experience of some older Indian relatives who
considered smiling to the point of revealing your teeth showing yourself to be
moronic. Even some phrases like ‘he/she has got their teeth out’. Of course
there were exceptions for a particularly funny social joke but yeah in general
standing around smiling comes across as daft to them.

------
amelius
I actually thought the smiling people in the images seemed less intelligent
and less honest than the neutral looking people.

~~~
yorwba
For me there's a big difference between someone flashing their teeth in a big
grin, and a photo that freezes the moment in time. The longer I look at such a
motionless smile, the sillier it seems.

FWIW, I'm from Germany (way to the right on the graph) and probably somewhat
of an outlier, since people kept asking me whether I was sad when I just made
a neutral face. I ended up training myself to always curl my lips slightly to
stop those questions.

~~~
chrisbennet
"Where would we be without humor?"

"Germany"

~~~
amelius
I think Italians have less humor than Germans. Italian stand-up comedy is
quite boring, from what I've seen so far.

~~~
Pica_soO
We cant all be british. Which regarding humor is quite sad.

------
lookACamel
What about on social media? Do the profile pictures on Russian social media
include smiling?

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tpeo
I think people forget that, if by a "smile" we mean any showing of teeth, not
all of them are created equal. And the impression they convey can radically
change depending on facial expression. Some _do_ look stupid, or dishonest.

------
roarktoohey
The ease with which you smile might have a genetic component.

:Confirmation Bias Engaged: People with bigger mouths tend to smile more than
those with smaller mouths. :Confirmation Bias Disengaged:

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ionised
I'm with the Russians on this one.

I hate smiling for photographs (hate getting my photograph taken in general),
as it just feels totally forced and false.

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snambi
Atleast in India, cheaters do smile too much. it would look like too much fake
smile.

------
solotronics
why are there so many photos of Putin smiling?

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throw-away-8
Same question in a mirror: why some cultures promote phoniness and avoid true
feelings? Actually I wonder why some cultures are prone to inflicting
genocide.

~~~
eeZah7Ux
Perhaps you are referring to some dictatorships, e.g. fascism in Italy, where
people where expected to be cheerful and optimistic at all times and being
gloomy or pessimistic was strongly discouraged by the government.

~~~
throw-away-8
Nice try but not at all: governments come and go while cultures have a much
longer lifetime. Witness "grim and gloomy" russians under prescriptive
eternally optimistic communist dictatorship. I think those folks that
downvoted my comment had a different idea and, perhaps, felt it's too close to
home for comfort.

------
fiokoden
Grim.

------
adambmedia
"It’s just that grinning without cause is not a skill Russians possess or feel
compelled to cultivate."

Unlike depression, and mathematics.

