
Two Weeks Notice Is Bullshit: The Modern Resignation Letter - ohjeez
https://www.conductor.com/blog/2017/12/two-weeks-notice-is-bs/
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gamblor956
I was in the situation earlier this year where my new job contract wasn't yet
signed and I was trying to figure out how long of a lead time to give my old
employer. (Note: both old and new jobs are non-programming positions.)

Turns out that I didn't need to bother. When my boss found out that I was
about to land a new position, he immediately called me, on my vacation, to lay
me off. So much for a transition period. On the bright side, by getting laid
off rather than resigning, I was owed a good chunk of severance.

My takeaway: only provide the minimum notice required by your employment
contract, if any. Because your employer sure as hell won't return the favor if
they decide to let you go. So if your employment contract doesn't require
notice, don't give any.

*Minimal notice was actually an issue at my old firm before I left. I kept wondering why people would announce their resignations the day they were leaving, out of the blue, without providing any opportunity to transition clients and work. I found out the why the hard way.

~~~
justboxing
> My takeaway: only provide the minimum notice required by your employment
> contract, if any.

Employment at most states in US is 'at-will' per State Labor Laws. So even if
an employment contracts states to the contrary, it won't hold up in Court.

California is also 'at-will' state. I think the reason most departing
employees give "2 weeks notice" is because they don't want to burn bridges,
because chances are that you will come across someone you worked with in the
past, in a future company / at a future employer.

~~~
gamblor956
_So even if an employment contracts states to the contrary, it won 't hold up
in Court._

That's not true at all...An employment contract can waive the at-will
provisions of law; indeed, this is one of the fundamental hallmarks of most
major league athlete contracts. These contracts have been upheld even in the
reddest of states... Such contracts are also frequently common for high-level
executive positions, especially in Hollywood.

You may be thinking of the opposite scenario: waiving the transition period.
Some jurisdictions which do not have at-will employment do not allow employees
to waive the transition period; others do if the employees are compensated
(see, e.g., France).

 _California is also 'at-will' state. I think the reason most departing
employees give "2 weeks notice" is because they don't want to burn bridges,
because chances are that you will come across someone you worked with in the
past, in a future company / at a future employer._

Yes, that's why employees used to give 2 weeks notice. Employers also used to
give pensions, regular raises, pay for overtime, and not lay off people while
they are on vacation. Times, and practices change.

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GiorgioG
As much as it sucks for the employer, it shouldn’t come as any surprise to
them. Culturally businesses have no problems giving employees zero day notices
when they’re laid off or fired. Loyalty works both ways.

Some businesses (yes a small software company I have friends at) will walk you
out the door the moment you give notice because they’re in the banking
industry and they’re concerned about people stealing confidential data. As a
result their only mobile software developer decided to give zero days notice.
This left them in a lurch, and I got a nice 4 month sidework contract out of
it...

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nanoscopic
Let me tell you a short story.

I worked at a company for almost 2 years. One day my manager calls me into his
office. He asks me: "Do you like working here?" I pause for a moment, then
respond "No. Not really." He then says "Alright then. You are fired."

In my particular situation, I pretty much knew what was actually going on and
why. I could have handed him a letter of my two week resignation instead of
going through the ridiculous charade of "do you like working here?" There is
good reason why people hand in resignations before asking for the details. The
chance that you will get suddenly terminated for no apparent reason is very
real.

Was I fired for a valid reason from the company? Nope. My performance reviews
etc were very high. The manager just didn't like me and the feeling was
mutual.

As another example, if one is not enough:

Another place I worked at, also for almost 2 years. I work there through a
consulting group. One day my consulting group handler comes to the office and
says we need to talk and asks me to come to lunch. No notice before he showed
up. After leaving the secure facility, he asks me for my access card and
informs me I have been fired.

I ask why. He says that no reason was given. I keep pestering the guy, who I
know fairly well, to try to get some sort of explanation. Eventually he says
that the only explanation he was given is that the company said I am too
smart. He said it doesn't make any sense and he doesn't get it either. To this
day I don't know why I was let go from that position.

If I'm at a job and things look like they are going sour; it is time for
hardball. I assume that I could be fired at any moment at all times, and I
make sure I am prepared for it.

You think "Two weeks is bullshit"? Two weeks is generous.

~~~
alexasmyths
It should probably be 'one month' and it should go both ways.

Also - if you've ever been a manager, you'd realize that what is 'bs' is that
you think you can just 'do your job' in the terms that you think it exists.

I literally have this problem right now with an Eng. who's decent, he
technically moves the schedule forward roughly on time - but he's impossible
to deal with, cynical at every turn, always negative, does not offer up
flexible options when he should - and I hate having to speak to him, it ruins
my day.

So does he 'do his job' \- he could argue that he does. I have only a few
complaints about his ability - but working on a team goes quite a bit beyond
that.

I'm about to let him go and I will accept someone who is not quite as good in
his wake if they are a better communicator -this person will be more valuable
to the company - and my peace of mind is worth something.

For professionals - if you 'don't like working somewhere' you should probably
leave. Life is too short. It's probably worth taking a little bit of a pay cut
to work where you get along.

~~~
nanoscopic
I've found that many of the best engineers are quite terrible at interacting
with other human beings. What matters to me is only if they deliver. If the
bottom line is met and the work is getting done and done well, then it doesn't
matter to me if the engineers are complete assholes.

Feel free to drop me a pm of the engineer you are canning; I'd be happy to
connect with him on LinkedIn.

Your note of "If you don't like working somewhere you should leave" doesn't
really work. You have to stay at companies for a specific amount of time or
you will end up with too many different positions on your resume and be
unemployable. It is better to stay suffering even at a place you hate to build
your resume. Leaving when things aren't going well, or allowing them to get to
the point where you need to leave is bad advice.

I am living proof of this. I have worked at 8 different positions in the past
17 years. By all reasonable notions I should be employed at a Principal
Engineer level. That said, I am unemployable. I am on unemployment and apply
to the most reasonably suited positions I can ever week, for 5 months now. I
have only been contacted back maybe 10 times in that entire period and made it
to 1 in person interview.

If you want to have a job, don't leave, even if it sucks, even if all you
coworkers tell you "you can easily get another job". When you have an offer in
hand; then feel free to quit. Otherwise stay put and try not to cause trouble.

~~~
mr_spothawk
> Otherwise stay put and try not to cause trouble.

or figure out how to work for yourself.

> I am living proof of this. I have worked at 8 different positions in the
> past 17 years.

If you have 17 years of work history, consider applying to a place and only
telling them about the last 5 years... see where that gets you.

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paulcole
>If you are close to landing a new job, let your manager know and ask them how
much time they will need.

This is awful awful awful advice. It’s not your problem how much time they
need. It’s not your responsibility to let your employer know they should start
searching for your replacement, especially when nothing is certain for you.

~~~
gamblor956
Agreed. Unless your employment contract requires them to keep you on for the
transition period, the most likely outcome is that they'll let you go
immediately and you'll spend a few stressful weeks locking up the new job.

The only time a departing employee should give their old employer time to
transition is if the employer is willing to pay for their salary and benefits
during the full transition period.

~~~
wolco
or if they win the lottery.

~~~
paulcole
If I win the lottery nobody I work with would blame me for not showing up ever
again.

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d23
> If you communicate and be open, magical things will happen.

Sorry, but not always. I've had multiple jobs where employers tried to screw
me out of a piddly amount of money when leaving. It's your job to figure out
whether you work for nice people who respect you or not. I do agree companies
_should_ be like this, where all people want what's best for one another. But
let's not pretend everyone is at one of those companies.

------
Overtonwindow
I wish it was this easy. Corporate employers have seemed more likely to just
terminate you if you raise concerns, rather than work it out. HR is there to
protect the company, not the employee. Admitting, my world of law and politics
is different. Give any indication that you are unhappy, and the company is
highly likely to terminate you (with severance) and then have security escort
you out the door. There is far too much fear in this anti-employee world for
employees to be honest and compassionate with their jobs.

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hullsean
capitalism is a rough game. sometimes people fight dirty.

the caution i would add is, you could try to play nice & the employer gets
pissed anyway and say “you know what, you can leave today!”. one must prepare
contingency plans on both sides.

if you want someone who will never quit, hire an independent consultant.

~~~
gumby
What? A consultant is _more_ likely to bail on a moment’s notice if a better
deal comes along. One reason for hiring an FTE is the inherent hysteresis.

Of course it’s bad for a consultant to get the reputation of being unreliable
so there’s some moderation on the practice.

~~~
devdad
A decent consultant would never leave from one day to the other. If the
employer/customer is doing their part, a consultant is reliable. The money's
better, the reputation is what earns them more gigs. Also, there's not
anything inherently bad with letting them go with zero notice, since that's
what you pay for.

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cylinder
I'm in Australia now and have been very surprised to find it common and
expected to give 2-4 months notice.

The flip side of that is employers are mandated by law to pay severance and
various leave accrued if they fire you.

~~~
eivindga
3 months is the standard in Norway, going both ways.

I have always found the way layoffs being done in the US very strange and
unnecessarily dramatic for both parties. If you are leaving, you should be
leaving in a professional manner. Do your best at work until the last day of
your employment.

Same if you are letting someone go, treat them with dignity and respect until
their last days at the company. Telling someone to pack their bags the same
day they are getting the notice sounds very cruel.

I don't see how this "burn all bridges" strategy can benefit anyone.

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mnm1
Ok the flip side, I've worked in jobs that fired people on the spot when
giving their two weeks and this is hardly unusual. The advice in the article
might make sense if the policies of the company are written down and the
employee has reasonable cause to believe the company will follow them.
Otherwise, the employee would be a total fool for following the advice here.
It's not about starting the new job as early as possible. It's about not
losing on two weeks of pay. Period. And more than two weeks? Yeah my current
company wants four yet they won't pay a single cent in severance. They'll be
lucky to get two. Sometimes there's also the revenge factor, though hopefully
not in this particular case, one never knows. I do know that there's no
loyalty from employers though and following the advice here is likely to lead
to some unexpected and negative results for the employee in many cases.

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NonEUCitizen
Author considers employees his slaves.

------
grok2
The problem when quitting is that you have to optimize for the worst case
outcome. Not every employer is understanding and considerate. The default
behavior in a lot of larger companies is to terminate someone as soon as
possible if they've given notice of leaving their job (specially when moving
to a competitor).

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occamrazor
Is the two week notice period defined by law? Otherwise it would be enough to
agree on a different notice period in the employment contract.

I (not in the US) have three months notice, which is plenty of time for me to
find a new job, or for my employer to find a replacement.

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ocdtrekkie
I would very much like a longer transition period. I really was gutted having
to give two weeks notice at my last employer. I wanted a longer transition.
But due to certain circumstances, I was worried I might just get 'let go'
early if I told them in advance of having a confirmed position at my new
employer, and they didn't really want to give me any more than two weeks
before I started there.

First and foremost I'm concerned with my job security: That I'm not "leaving"
my old job until a new job offer has been formally accepted. If both sides of
that equation can provide me some sort of guarantee on a larger transition,
I'd really love to do so.

As it was, I spent my final two weeks deactivating my own accounts, ensuring
everyone else could easily step in and run the things I ran, etc. I left an
open offer for them to get in touch if they had any questions about stuff I
did or needed my help for a while.

------
codesternews
In India I have heard some companies have 3 Months notice period which is too
long. The employee and employer just have too spend this time with all the
negatives etc. I think 2 week is very generous and decent to transition
anything.

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hbarka
Two weeks is perfect.

~~~
paulcole
Why is it better than say 1.5 weeks or 3 weeks?

~~~
crdoconnor
Short notice periods are better for employees if:

* Transition is expensive for employer (handover, finding replacements) but cheap for the employee (moving costs).

* The labor market is tight.

It's better for employers if

* transition is expensive for the employee (e.g. high moving costs) but cheap for the employer (finding and training up a replacement is easy).

* The job market is tight.

Employees would do best to use their leverage as much as possible. It's not
like employers won't do exactly the same.

This guy's blog sounds like a pretty standard employer whinge about sometimes
not having leverage combined with a promise of non-monetary reward if the
employee doesn't use their leverage.

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Buttes3
Yeah _right_ , did I get warped back in time? This is the _opposite_ of
modern.

2 weeks notice is an anachronism in the age of "human capital" and at-will
employment. This is the world HBS biz school dbags made and its the world
they'll have to live in.

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gaius
_the resignation duel,” in which the employee senses an issue and wants to be
the first one to draw their weapon._

Article assumes the only reason anyone resigns is to pre-empt being fired.
What about better offers, or unrelated reasons like a partner relocation?

In the UK and Europe a 3-month notice period for key or senior engineers is
not unusual.

~~~
downrightmike
Most places in the US exist in an At-Will or Right to Work state, people can
walk out and be fired without notice. Companies fought hard for this and they
got it. The 2 weeks is just a courtesy, I've seen people walk in Monday and
hand in a piece of paper that was back dated 2 weeks and walkout the door.

~~~
pkaye
I've seen people leave without even a notice. Gone one day and no indication
afterwards. The employer is just worried that nothing bad happened to that
person.

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FlyingSideKick
Great article. I fully agree with the author that the way one handles
resignations and terminations says a lot about the character of the individual
or company.

When I left my last corporate job to start my company I gave them six weeks
notice and used this opportunity to train another team member so there would
be continuity.

On the flip side we had to fire a non-performing employee earlier this year
and we gave him eight weeks of full pay and decided officially to lay him off
so that he could collect unemployment if need be.

