
High-Paying Trade Jobs Sit Empty, While High School Grads Line Up for University - duck
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-paying-trade-jobs-sit-empty-while-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university
======
protonimitate
Trade skills are a great field to get into, with caveats.

First, construction in general is a pretty up and down industry. Construction
booms don't last forever, and in general you need to 'follow the work'. This
is great if you are young, single, and willing to chase the high paying jobs.
Not so great if you have a strong desire to stay in one spot.

Second, trade jobs are usually pretty tough on the body. After a couple
decades of work your body begins to break down, assuming there are no
workplace injuries to put you out of commission sooner.

Third, workplace conditions are on average undesirable. Outdoors in the
heat/cold, or indoors in tight spaces or high places. It's tough sell over
companies that glorify bean bag chairs, nap pods, and free beer on hand.

Fourth, there's a social stigma around trade skill jobs. Blue collar jobs have
gained a reputation of being jobs held by slackers or the less fortunate.
Unfortunately, wearing workboots carries a stigma that wearing a shirt and
tie/'startup' attire doesn't.

Fifth, and this one may seem like a silly reason to most, the drug testing
(for marijuana specifically) is a huge barrier of entry. From a safety
perspective, it makes sense. But for better or worse, marijuana use is
becoming more socially accepted while work places (and in particular trade
jobs) are lagging behind the times. Removing a marijuana screen from standard
workplace testing would help revitalize the employee pool.

Sixth, and this is arguably the biggest one, four year degrees are seen as a
status symbol and are being sold to use as such. They are Big Education, and
are pulling on all the right strings to keep the tuition/student debt machine
running. Advocating for trade jobs is in direct competition. They have enough
players in their pockets (donors, alumnus, politicians) to keep the money
flowing in the right direction. Selling someone on trade school/work is hard
when it is seen as the less optimal path towards 'life success'.

All of these observations are based off my fathers experience as union based
pipe fitter/welder for >30 years.

~~~
noddingham
>Fifth, and this one may seem like a silly reason to most, the drug testing
(for marijuana specifically) is a huge barrier of entry. From a safety
perspective, it makes sense. But for better or worse, marijuana use is
becoming more socially accepted while work places (and in particular trade
jobs) are lagging behind the times. Removing a marijuana screen from standard
workplace testing would help revitalize the employee pool.

Perhaps (and I'm granting some leeway here) we don't yet have the tools or the
data to understand well enough how something like THC affects motor skills
like we do with alcohol, but someday I expect we will. Work places
(particularly those with high safety concerns) shouldn't make any sacrifices
just because something is socially acceptable. You can't show up drunk, and
alcohol is more socially accepted than marijuana.

~~~
squeaky-clean
We don't have accurate ways to test if you're high though. We can only test if
you've done it in the past few days/weeks.

Fire someone for showing up to work drunk, sure. But would you fire them for a
bottle of wine on a Saturday night?

~~~
tkxxx7
This is inaccurate. Oral tests are effective around 8-12 hours from use.

~~~
StudentStuff
Still too broad a range, smoking some weed at 7pm doesn't necessarily make you
unsafe at 7am. Zero tolerance is unrealistic and unnecessary for most jobs
that drug test.

~~~
PC_LOAD_LETTER
There's not another viable test though that can act on a shorter window than
that. Companies aren't out of line for not wanting their employees to be
working while under the influence of marijuana - the problem isn't that
they're being too strict ('zero tolerance'), it's that they don't have a
granular test that would suffice.

That, plus marijuana is still illegal in most states. Whatever your personal
conviction may be, businesses aren't in the business to turn the blind eye to
illegal substance use. They're on the hook for liability.

~~~
nmcfarl
> plus marijuana is still illegal in most states

NPR recently pointed out that if you include medical marijuana this is no
where close to true with it being legal in 29 states:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis_by_U.S....](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis_by_U.S._jurisdiction)

------
ProfessorLayton
As someone that grew up poor with blue collar parents, and who's extended
family is mostly in the trades business, I figure I'd chime in some of their
perspectives:

\- I would have disappointed them if I did not earn a 4-year degree. I'm one
of the first, and very few people in my family with a degree.

\- As others have stated, trades are very hard on the body, and things get
dicy once it is going downhill. The pay is alright, but it cost a lot of
knees, shoulders, and backs.

\- The only way for my dad to continue in the trades business at his age was
to start his own company and hire people himself. Not everyone is able to do
this, and I continue to help a lot to build his online presence and non-labor
side of the business. Hiring good people is insanely hard like the article
states, and is actually capping growth.

\- I'm currently way more successful working in tech than I could have ever
been in the trades business, and to my family, this was the _expected_ result.
Their stance is that they worked way too hard to allow me to get an education
for me to end up in the same place they did.

I'd like to add that I'm not discouraging anyone from skilled trades, nor do I
think they're inferior to white collar jobs. I'm just pointing out different
perspectives, and that it is much more nuanced than what is in this article.

~~~
hackerews
Do people do anything to prevent, or delay, the knees, shoulder, or back
issues?

~~~
itslennysfault
Yeah, my dad was a carpenter, and I grew up working on job sites with him
during the summers. His strategy was to never bend over if he could help it.
Simple things like setting things down on something waist height instead of on
the floor whenever possible.

~~~
rxhernandez
I've started this exact process a couple days ago while moving all my life to
the bay this past week; I don't feel nearly as worn out at the end of the day
because of it.

------
vpmpaul
Who considers 55-60k "high paying" especially when the job contains potential
life threatening risks and other health issues.

I wouldn't do much of that dangerous and exhausting work for double that pay
range and I would still make less money than I do sitting at a desk now. I can
put in <35 hrs a week, run errands during the day, work from home in my
underwear, meet friends for long lunches.

I do think there are downsides to the office life though. The politics and
games of course. There are also the issues of needing to make sure you take
time for your physical fitness. Its easy to forget or slack off on that one.

I think the reality here is that those jobs are still majorly underpaid for
the work involved when there are alternatives around every corner.

~~~
maxerickson
Median (personal) income in the US is $31,000:

[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N)

So approximately everybody should consider twice that "high paying".

(fixed the number, was $32,000)

~~~
lurchpop
Using national numbers isn't really useful. The case study of the $50k
ironworker in Seattle is well below the median for that city which has a
median income of $80k.

~~~
mox1
And the 50k worker in the story is 20 years old. I'm sure he has a lot of
potential salary growth.

~~~
vkou
Or a chance at destroying their body by the age of 35.

------
SwellJoe
I dunno. Every tradesman I know in their 40s or 50s has health problems
related to their work. And, since _most_ of that work is contract work, they
often do not have good coverage for disability, retirement, etc. The process
of getting compensated for work-related injuries is often complicated and
involves lawyers, because companies obviously don't want to pay those kinds of
claims because they can be very expensive.

So...yes, you can make decent money, and beginning sooner than you would if
you get a degree. It's economically a viable thing, especially if you enjoy
the work (I occasionally think I would like to be outside more for my work,
and there are a lot of trade skills I enjoy learning and doing for fun...I
plan to build my own house with my own two hands someday not too far in the
future). But, if you do, you should start investing in being able to _leave_
the field by the time you're in your 50s (or even earlier), because you're
probably going to find yourself in a situation where working is painful or not
possible. Or, join a union. That can help, and the most successful guys I know
who've done that kind of work for decades are union members, and they know
they're protected in the event of a variety of mishaps.

------
gbacon
Everyone in college isn’t cut out for medical school or law school. This is
neither controversial nor a judgment against us laymen. Not everyone in high
school is cut out for college either. People working the skilled trades make a
comfortable living. An awful disservice perpetrated by the education
establishment is sneering at vocational training as a fallback option for
losers. The skilled trades are entirely honorable.

Thinking of it in economic terms, labor is not a homogeneous factor. We are
not interchangeable cogs in some machine.

Shunting anyone into vocational training — or into a college-bound track, for
that matter! — because of ignorant ideas about anyone’s “place” in society is
evil and wrong.

~~~
lotsofpulp
If the "skilled" trades offered enough pay, then they would automatically
become honorable.

The lack of pay commensurate to the risk of injury, variable work schedules,
not being home every night, etc causes the status.

~~~
cmorgan31
Don't you think the rampant degradation of their image in media has played a
role in the declining rates? College graduates don't immediately make more
than trade careers, and in some cases, the trade careers are a better path to
the "American Dream." They deal with more obvious dangers but don't have as
much of a sedentary lifestyle which contributes a good deal to health risks
both mental and physical.

~~~
lotsofpulp
If it has, then their pay should markedly be rising, and maybe it is. I know
I'm paying a lot more for labor in the past few years than before. The
difference is, however, that it has to pay enough extra to offset the luxuries
of a stable 9-5 office job or what have you, and this could be a lagging
indicator.

But do many people want to tell their kid that they're probably not good
enough to compete for the cushy jobs, and that they should go for the trades
instead?

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Perhaps not, but we do (should) tell our kids to do the work they enjoy.

Mine wanted to be a game programmer when he was 12. Now, at 17, he's
discovered that he loves welding and is pretty good at it. He wants to get
certified and be a professional welder.

Living on a farm, he's used to hard work outdoors at temperature extremes and
does it without complaint. If he wants to be a welder instead of a software
engineer, I'm all for it.

------
bilbo0s
In all fairness here, people have seen the ravages that the boom/bust nature
of these kinds of trade jobs wrought on peoples' lives. Many parents out where
I live here in fly-over country advise kids, "Hey... get a degree, and then
get a job in construction if that's something you want to do. Because... you
know... look at me and your uncle."

And out here, "...look at me and your uncle...", or "...look at your older
sister or brother...", is usually a fairly compelling argument. As is having a
degree when all of the construction jobs go belly up.

~~~
jdietrich
By the same token, student debt is a serious burden to bear if college is just
a backup plan. "Get a degree" too often means "get a bachelor's in any old
subject from a private college" rather than "get an associate degree with a
clear career path from a local accredited community college or technical
school".

Young people aren't given a clear picture of their options. A bachelor's
degree is often treated like a golden ticket to the middle class, rather than
a very expensive and often questionably useful qualification.

~~~
bilbo0s
Well out here people understand that associate's or bachelor's in liberal arts
areas are useless degrees. Most kids want a job oriented bachelor's. something
like Nursing, Education, and especially Science or Engineering.

I think a lot of people would be surprised how popular Nursing degrees are in
my neck of the woods. I don't know if they are popular nationwide, but Nursing
out here is seen by many, (young ladies especially), as a ticket out of the
ghetto or the trailer park.

------
mabbo
The thing about trades is you don't need to be smart- just hard working.

Three years out of high school, with 4 more to go before I finished my
University education, I was back home for a weekend. I met up with a buddy of
mine from high school to grab a beer at the local pub in town and we ran into
another guy from our year- Let's call him 'Jim'. My friend had been sort of
friends with Jim in grade 8 or something so he wound up sitting down with us
for a bit.

The most astounding part to me was that Jim wasn't in prison. I mean, Jim had
been the kind of guy even in high school where he probably should have been
arrested a dozen times for the trouble he got up to. Seeing him a free man was
like "wow, he made it" on its own. He wasn't a dumb brute, but he wasn't the
type for University either.

We got talking about what we'd been up to. Me: education and debt; my friend:
similar story. But Jim had gone out west to Alberta and gotten himself a
welder's license. Training for 8 months right after high school, paid for by
the oil companies. Making $80k/year[0], more if he put in the extra time. Had
almost saved up enough to buy that welding rig for his truck and then he could
go independent and probably bring in $120k or more- again, depending on how
hard he wanted to work.

We were 22-ish, and in terms of lifetime income, Jim was probably close to
$200k ahead of us with zero debts.

I suspect that in the last decade, I may have caught up. Maybe. I've had a
good career so far. But not if Jim's been working hard that whole time. If he
has, and if he's saved and invested wisely, then he's still long ahead of me.
(Or if he's in prison- then I might catch up!).

[0]All monetary amounts in Canadian dollars, but you know around 2007 we were
above the USD in value.

~~~
burger_moon
>The thing about trades is you don't need to be smart- just hard working

Man some of the comments in this thread really are disgusting.

~~~
mabbo
My apologies, I can see how what I said can sound harsh. It's not my intent to
say that tradespeople aren't smart. I have a technical school diploma myself,
from before I went to university.

The reality is though that what universities prize- this strange form of
'smart' that involves sitting and reading for hours on end, usually of
subjects that have no meaning towards the actual career objective- is not a
skill that needed to get a trades degree. There, everything you learn is
specially needed in the job you'll do. And there's a lot of kids right now
sitting in University classrooms desperate to learn something practical while
going deep into debt to learn something else.

~~~
mywittyname
> this strange form of 'smart' that involves sitting and reading for hours on
> end, usually of subjects that have no meaning towards the actual career
> objective-

That's not a form of 'smart,' but a form of discipline that greatly influences
how successful a person will be. Lots of careers require people to spend hours
learning material that they have absolutely no interest in for the sole
purpose of achieving some goal.

Lawyers don't give a crap about Clark v. West Virginia, but there might be a
time when they need to learn ever single detail of the case because it is
relevant to their job. The same situation applies to many top-tier careers.

------
gnarcoregrizz
50k/year is high paying? also, construction seems more prone to boom/bust
cycles. the outlook looks good though considering the pent-up demand.

you can make a lot of money in the trades (really, a lot) if you open your own
business though, but that's a whole different skillset.

edit* 50k in seattle

~~~
salmonfamine
It is actually pretty high for an individual earner. According to this
([https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/](https://dqydj.com/income-
percentile-calculator/)) which is sourced from the Census Bureau, it's at
approximately the top 25% of earners in the US.

~~~
gnarcoregrizz
this article is about seattle though. sure there are a lot of places in the US
where 50k goes far enough, but I don't think it does there.

also, what is the upwards mobility like in these types of jobs? anecdotally,
it seems like managers on construction sites went to college. I imagine it
tops out, kind of like software development, until you reach a managerial or
director level.

~~~
salmonfamine
Good points. I have heard that some trades have a hard ceiling, since managers
do tend to have college degrees. I don't know much about it, though.

------
ilamont
An observation: trades aren't that welcoming toward women, which severely
restricts the talent pool. Quoting a 2015 Chicago Tribune article:

 _Women represent just 4 percent of the workforce in natural resources,
construction and maintenance, according to the U.S. Department of Labor. Their
underrepresentation in such high-paying industries is one key reason that
women earn, on average, 78 cents for every dollar a man earns, the agency
said._

What would have to happen for this lopsided gender imbalance to change?

[http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-women-in-
trades-04...](http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-women-in-
trades-0417-biz-20150420-story.html)

~~~
jeffreyrogers
I think a big part of it is women just aren't interested in these jobs as
much. Not that there isn't harassment, but if you asked most women and men,
"do you want to be a welder?", I'm sure far more men than women would say yes.

~~~
ilamont
Similar things have been said about female coders, founders, and
technologists, including in the comments of HN. Yet it's also been
demonstrated that women get paid less, have a tougher time advancing, and
often experience harassment that males never have to deal with.

[https://www.fastcompany.com/40525199/just-2-of-vc-dollars-
we...](https://www.fastcompany.com/40525199/just-2-of-vc-dollars-went-to-
female-founders-in-2017)

[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/05/tesla-
sex...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/05/tesla-sexual-
harassment-discrimination-engineer-fired)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14621765](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14621765)

~~~
jeffreyrogers
And it's also true that women make up a minority of CS students in
universities. Discrimination and lack of interest can coexist and both be true
reasons why people don't go into/stay in fields.

------
nwmcsween
As a professional welder and mechanic (redseal), the title makes it sound as
if a trade is simply a 4 year apprenticeship and off you go to a high paying
job. It's no where near that, you have to be skilled at what you do if you
want to make the high end (~$75/h) just like any job.

------
austincheney
I suspect I will get some flack for this, but programming is a trade skill.

Currently, software development is completely unregulated, requires no formal
education or credentials, and is solely assessed on experienced. That said
software development has far more in common with iron working, mechanics,
music performance, and construction than it does something like law, medicine,
or real estate.

I know people like to talk up their profession with their high priced
education and the trappings of the fancy corporate environments. Honestly,
most software developers are little more than skilled button pushers. Very few
of the people paid to write software are computer scientists, actually use or
benefit from any form of graduate education, or are inventing new concepts in
software.

~~~
emidln
The only difference between law and programming is a regulation forcing you to
join a trade association which imposes a formal test for admittance prior to
practicing law. Technical knowledge of dejure laws (formally passed),
regulations (explicitly stated, but under the license of a law where they are
given effect), defacto laws (rulings or case law), and their interplay is
extremely similar to knowledge of RFCs, APIs, tooling systems, and their
interplay.

~~~
mieseratte
One could make superficial comparisons between just about any career, from law
and medicine to tradesman. Every job requires domain specific knowledge, how
things interact, etc.

The application of that knowledge is how and why things are different. I
actually asked a friend of mine, programmer-turned-lawyer, how similar the two
were based off your premise. To him, there are completely unrelated skill sets
that differentiate the two.

I'm sure some subset of lawyers overlaps with what some subset of software
engineers do, generically speaking, but a practicing lawyer winning cases and
a software engineer actually writing code are very different beasts.

------
gaze
People take higher skilled jobs partially because people are more likely to
treat you like an adult! Do you wanna be nickeled and dimed for spending too
much time in the bathroom? Shit like that. It’s often times just a really
rough life. As a programmer you can tell people that are bugging you that
they’re being distracting and to fuck off. You can come in late and leave late
and as long as you show up to meetings and are nice to people and are
generally pleasant and get all your work done, it’s fine. It’s not this way in
a lot of industries.

------
myegorov
Going to college might not be financially rewarding for many, but neither are
trades. I worked in the construction trades for about two years before
switching to engineering, and later software. In retrospect, switching careers
paid off several fold. As a white male, without having served in the military,
I could not get into the carpenters union, not without losing a couple years
waiting in line. So my only option were small time contractors, remodels and
the like. Poor pay, no benefits, underemployment, long daily commute. The
worst part for me was the very slow learning rate. There was no training. I
had to steal the knowledge, in the fake it till you make it fashion. I
wouldn't get to do new tasks otherwise. I found engineering (civil) and
software development very much in the spirit of craftsmanship. I still think
of myself as a tradesman, just without all the crap surrounding manual trades
in the US.

------
haberman
In an interesting coincidence, The Stranger (local leftie paper in Seattle)
just published this guest op-ed about how iron-workers don't earn enough to
live in Seattle:
[https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/04/20/26067604/guest-e...](https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/04/20/26067604/guest-
editorial-we-cant-afford-to-live-in-the-city-we-build)

This article is drumming up support for the idea of taxing Amazon and other
big businesses to build affordable housing.

~~~
jinushaun
Your point? Tech workers don't make enough to live in SF.

~~~
jadedhacker
Both good arguments for decommodifying housing. :) Your pay shouldn't be the
determining factor of where you can live. In fact, if you get paid more, you
can afford better transportation, so you should arguably live further away
than a store clerk or a janitor.

However, that kind of policy would also hurt society by discouraging mixing of
people with different jobs, so really housing should not be based on pay at
all. First come first serve seems more appropriate unless there's a
demonstrated hardship.

~~~
astrange
American housing policy is literally based on not letting people mix at all,
since the middle class ideal has always been a nuclear family house in a
suburb where you can't hear your neighbor and don't need to meet them. Even
more so since the 70s, since people don't let their kids go outside.

Going full socialism would need some more, well, socializing.

------
Avshalom
Just as an additional point: a lot of these jobs ask for years of experience
or your own tools. If you know a guy it's not hard to get around that but if
you don't know a guy they can seem completely out of reach.

And as wierd vicious cycle, when you're short on bodies have less tolerance
for people learning the ropes. So the number of will-train job ads probably
isn't going to increase anytime soon.

~~~
jnwatson
Sounds a lot like the software industry.

~~~
Avshalom
I don't know that it's actually like software but yes it is absolutely like
the _software job ads_ . Fewer: 5 years of experience in 6 month old
technology but very much the "entry level"="3+ years of experience" horse
shit.

The need a job to get a job thing is actually pretty universal. "Have you been
unemployed for more than 30 days in the last 6 months: explain" is actually a
stock question on applications.

------
jorblumesea
Why is it always about money?

1) Trade jobs are notoriously hard on the body, and often result in much
longer hours compared to office workers. Also, hours are not flex. You cannot
work from home, you can't pick your kids up from school early.

2) Trade jobs can be very boom bust, far more than people realize. When it's
good, it's very good, but there's no guaranteed income stream. When the
economy is down, trades are hit very hard. There's no internationalized income
stream as there are with global corporations.

3) Many trade jobs don't have many of the cushy benefits that corporate
employees do, such as 401k with match, generous vacation time, paternity
leave, etc. Maybe this will change as demand increases.

4) Some trade jobs don't result in easily transferable skills. For example, a
manager of a team can use those skills to manage most teams and shift
industries. A mason isn't able to become an electrician without significant
work.

5) Status. Corporate office worker has a certain status in society. Is this
fair or equitable? Probably not. But it does exist.

------
observer12
One thing people tend to skip over, a lot of jobs that are considered to
require degrees don't. Programming... nope, IT... nope, Infosec... nope.
Arguably there are a lot more that don't require a degree or could be replaced
by a shorter and cheaper trade school version if it existed.

Germany for example does something I like a lot. There is a mix between trade
schools and universities. You can become a doctor in Germany by going to a
trade school, they are paid during the programs. But Germany also has the
whole free university thing and doesn't have a hang-up on trade skills being
lower class. I figure this is because careers such as Doctors can be obtained
through trade schools.

I personally make 6 figures, and live in a major city that doesn't have
inflated cost of living like most of California and NYC. My income alone is
more than double the average household in my city. I don't have anything more
than a high school degree and I work in tech, in fact a degree hasn't ever
been a barrier for me employment-wise except at an engineering firm, at the
firm I couldn't have engineer in my job title but I still got paid the same or
more then those with engineer in theirs.

------
jl2718
College is pay-for-prestige. You also get friends of similar wealth and
intelligence. This whole thing is a modern version of the Calvinist ideology
of predestination, that some people are born better than others, and they
deserve more without doing anything for it. Admissions committees are our
clergy. People are naturally distrustful of themselves, and will always seek
guidance of commonly-accepted higher authorities.

~~~
aantix
Maybe it once was, but the curtain has be lifted at least for some majors.

There's no prestige in underemployment/no-employment after graduation.
Everyone knows someone for whom you attended their graduation party and then
six months later they're still working retail..

"around 44% of college graduates ages 22 to 27 work in jobs that do not
require a college degree. "
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/07/13/new-y...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/07/13/new-
york-fed-highlights-underemployment-among-college-graduates/#56d5bd9b40d8)

------
no_wizard
The only downside to these kinds of jobs is while they’re in demand _now_
there is zero guarantees they will be 10 years from now

I think trade jobs have the highest long term stability risk IMHO but this is
based on anecdotal evidence

Sever folks I know when from the mid 2000s (post crash) learned trades from
plumbing to carpenters to skilled machining. Only the skilled machinist has
not been laid off at least once nor had to move for where they live to get
work (or travel more than 20 minutes)

My engineer graduate friends? Never even faced possible unemployment

~~~
ryandrake
You just need to live through a bad crash. Engineers aren’t immune. I’ve been
unemployed twice, both tech downturns. It’s not fun.

~~~
no_wizard
I lived through 99 and 07. In 99 when the crash was burning the tech industry
to the ground I remember lots of people I knew for jobs in financial companies
working on tech. Ironically when that all went up in smoke in 07 they all went
back to working for tech sector companies again.

The growth lives somewhere. You do have to make an effort to stay marketable
though and that can be tough

~~~
bdcravens
It's a matter of skillset. In 2001 many who only knew a smaller language
struggled; those who knew what "boring" companies needed were fine. Similarly
in the next crash I think we'll see those who specialize in the hippest JS
frameworks have problems; the .net and Java folks will be fine.

------
sunstone
This is situation is often presented as a mutually exclusive choice which is
shortsighted. Many people might want to do both and plan for that from the
beginning.

So person A might want to take an electrician's ticket first so they then have
a decent paying sideline while at university. Person B might want to study at
University first for their own interests like art history for example, and
then plan to take a trade's ticket later because the work environment of a
trade is often better paid and much superior to the back biting office
environment of many 'management' positions.

------
tabeth
Unfortunately, in a classist society no one wants to do what they perceive to
be "grunt work". The good news is that there's a natural equilibrium that will
be met as the waves of graduates see their ROI decrease, save for those who
attend a handful of elite universities.

~~~
wufufufu
I was just thinking about this. Even as an engineer (which I consider to be a
trade job where it helps if you go to college), my social status won't ever
approach that of a seasoned doctor, professor, and maybe lawyer. Even if I get
up to L7, it's just not the same as perceived by society.

~~~
lotsofpulp
If engineers started making the same amount of money as doctors, then it
would.

~~~
wufufufu
That's not true. Doctors have more process to go through to become legitimate
(college, med school are both strictly required), where as you can become a
SWE without those. You can be a successful SWE with only a high school
diploma.

The occupation of a doctor is a position of power. You always have people
working under you -- nurses, students, medical staff. The fundamental
interaction between patient and doctor has a power imbalance. The patient
comes to the doctor for help and listens to the doctor's authority in the
subject.

It's also a more social position than SWE. You talk to people as part of your
job. I can get by never talking to anyone as a SWE. It's easier to accumulate
a balanced social group as a doctor.

~~~
triviatise
not entirely true. Socializing medicine has reduced their power significantly.
Even in the mid 90s my father was friends with many doctors who wished they
could switch into computer science. My GP just quit medicine because she was
basically a grunt for the health system, the last straw was when they started
to adjust her hours like a retail employee.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Tech doesnt have
nearly the regulation, the slow pace of innovation, and lack of mobility that
medicine has. Professors are the worst and are not well paid at all, unless
they are able to do consulting on the side.

I personally have owned my own company for around 18 years. I dont care about
status, but I want to generate enough $$ to not have to worry about money.

The money I make is about the same as my friends that are at top tier jobs in
the bay area. Though my income fluctuates between 300-600k and theirs tends to
be more steady.

My wife doesnt work and so many of my friends with two more modest tech
incomes make about the same as I do.

~~~
wufufufu
Good points and informative response. You're definitely an outlier, though.

> Professors are the worst and are not well paid at all

Not from the professors I know (engineering fields). That information is also
public in many cases. They're not making your 300k-600k, but it's extremely
stable, a position of power, prestigious because of the requirements, and it
gets more prestigious with time.

I suspect with software engineering there is age discrimination against older
people. Older doctors are wise and more experienced, older engineers are
outdated and retiring soon?

------
Xeoncross
I've found that the biggest contributor to make more money (beside right
time/right place) is being exposed to more things that alert me to new
industries and opportunities.

College can do this. So can changing jobs. So can travel.

------
djhworld
I remember a lecturer at University asking the class if they went into CS
because of the money. A few excited students raised their hands.

He then proceeded to describe the difference in income of what a plumber makes
in comparison to your average CS grad over 10 years.

Needless to say, it was quite an eye opening experience (this is in the UK by
the way, not sure how well plumbers do in the US)

~~~
currymj
i'm not sure about plumbers, but i think CS graduates do much worse in the UK,
even adjusting for cost of living and currency and so on.

of course it's hard to compare statistics, but 40k pounds a year would be
somewhere around normal for a dev with a couple years' experience?

whereas $70-80k would be low for a similar developer in the US, and you're
making $100k+ if you go to work for a big tech company straight out of
college.

i've heard people speculate, without much justification, that this is a CP
Snow "two cultures" thing, where a sort of British aristocratic spirit means
that engineering and other fields requiring applied scientific knowledge are
lower status than other professional fields like law or finance. (if this
applies to medicine as well, it would explain the lower status of doctors in
the UK.)

~~~
laurencerowe
Salaries for programmers in the UK are definitely lower than Silicon Valley,
but it was still well paid. The career structure was different with far fewer
big tech company jobs. Experienced developers who weren't looking to become
managers would move into independent consulting / contracting.

10 years ago £500-600/day was fairly standard for consulting gigs (>£100K/year
vs £60K/year as a senior engineer employee.) In London there was plenty of
contracting work and could easily count on working full time on six month
contracts. Outside of London the pay was a little less and the opportunities
further between but with the lower cost of living it ended up about a wash.

Working in Silicon Vally now, the big advantage is the availability of super-
senior engineering roles that only really exist in organizations with 1000s of
software engineers.

By my estimation, software engineers in the UK are on about the same social
rung as solicitors or accountants. I think doctors still enjoy a high social
status in the UK, just without the high salaries (or huge student loans!) of
the US.

------
harryh
The wage premium in the US for a college degree over a HS diploma is about
70%. As long as this remains true (and it's hard to see it changing), this
trend will continue.

~~~
analog31
Training in a skilled trade is a step above a HS diploma. The HS diploma stats
doubtlessly include a lot of unskilled jobs.

~~~
observer12
It also includes people who gained their degrees later in life despite having
successful careers. The majority of people I have worked with in my career in
tech don't have degrees or didn't when they started.

------
MrFantastic
High paying trade jobs that have the highest risk of injury and death.

Automated construction will start in the next 10 years.

~~~
sgt101
>High paying trade jobs that have the highest risk of injury and death.

I'm curious as to what 30 years of sitting, programming, drinking cool-aid
will do to health vs 30 years of lugging steel... Trawler fishing, I agree -
v.dangerous, not good for you!

>Automated construction will start in the next 10 years.

Possibly, maybe - but more likely 20 or more; and emphasis start.

~~~
timbuckley
> I'm curious as to what 30 years of sitting, programming, drinking cool-aid
> will do to health vs 30 years of lugging steel... Trawler fishing, I agree -
> v.dangerous, not good for you!

In those 30 years, you will likely accumulate injuries that make it harder to
keep doing the work. My father is a general contractor, and though he does the
work far less often than those who work for him, he has accumulated a number
of minor injuries that stay with him.

~~~
sgt101
Sorry to hear about your dad's injuries.

------
dkoubsky
I'm about to graduate high school and train become an electrician. I chose
this route over college because I know I would be miserable at a normal desk
job and going into the trades will allow me to work with my hands, which I
enjoy doing, as well as allow me to start my own business fairly easily. Aside
from the opportunity cost of putting off college and/or job experience, I
don't see how I could lose much if I decide to pursue another path in the
future. I'm open to advice or ideas, so let me know what you guys think.

------
huangc10
On a somewhat related note, I was walking past a construction site yesterday
and noticed how big the workers were! The team was placing a beam into the
ground (most likely the building foundation) and the dudes holding the beam in
place must have ranged from 6'3 to 6'5 and ~250 lbs!

I do somewhat envy/admire what they do because it's more of a physical skill
and keeps the body strong and in motion unlike sitting in front of a computer
9-5. Trade jobs are underrated and hopefully won't be replaced completely in
the future.

~~~
et-al
That's probably self-selecting, but ask any guy in the trades how their bodies
are when they're 40 and they'll tell you about their aches.

Computer jockeys, meanwhile, may suffer from some RSI from typing, or injuries
from falling off their Boosted Board or rockclimbing.

~~~
lutorm
That's not true, though. People who have had sedentary jobs their whole life
are likely to also have neck and back problems, be overweight, etc.

~~~
et-al
Sure, but the risk of getting injured is higher on a construction site.

The majority of OSHA regulations out there are meant to protect people in the
trades. Let's not romanticise things: white collar workers have it easy when
it comes to toils on the body. If you get injured, you can probably take a few
days off, work from home, heal properly.

In the trades, you pop some Ibuprofen and suck it up. Sit out injured too long
and you're out of a job, unless you happen to win some workman's comp lottery.

In addition, lots of risks with sedentary behavior are preventable: eat well,
take frequent breaks, go for a walk after dinner, etc.

------
Robotbeat
"High paying trade jobs sit empty."

Then give them a higher wage, institute better benefits, and/or facilitate
more employee training.

Oh, and if we're expecting kids to do trade jobs and not attend a 4 year
college, then our schools sure as heck better do a good job teaching geometry
and algebra as they won't have remedial college courses to fall back on and
trades often make use of such skills (especially as mechatronics is
increasingly integrated into trades such as carpentry, machining, etc... soon
everything).

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
I have always thought that one of the best non-college requiring jobs in
plumbing. It won't be outsourced. When people have a plumbing emergency, they
usually prioritize getting it fixed as fast as possible over cost. In
addition, it takes only a few tries of "do it yourself plumbing" to convince a
person that they would rather pay someone than deal with leaks.

It is a shame that we push an expensive college degree on people who will end
up getting paid less and having less job security.

~~~
ManFromUranus
I think it's actually elevator mechanic, but I agree with everything you said

------
toblender
Until we can change the perception that trade jobs are 'lower class' or
unclean, we will continue to have vacancies.

I once remarked to a nephew who was thinking about what to do after high
school that he should consider a trade. His parents overheard, and though they
agreed it was good pay they didn't want their son doing that kind of work.

Upon reflection, I wouldn't want my son to do that kind of work as well, as
it's usually hard work and not looked upon favorably.

~~~
lotsofpulp
Fix the pay, and you fix the image. Surely there exists some number at which
point parents do want their children to do that kind of work.

------
YuriNiyazov
Sure, why get a job that pays 54K if you can later get a job that pays 150k +
equity?

------
Eylandos
Even with the wage these jobs garner, the perception is still there. When you
tell people you do blue collar work, automatically you think of people
drenched in sweat doing back breaking work, with grease on their shirt, dusty
steel toed boots and a sense of exhaustion. They come off as low brow crass
individual who wants to get paid and head on home when in actuality that is
the furthest from the truth. People judge other people in numerous ways but
the moment you deviate from the norm, you examined like a microscope and then
placed in a category.

It is just the way we are wired.

~~~
djrogers
Maybe that's just the way you're wired? I don't think any of the things you
list when I meet someone who's a blue collar worker, nor do most of my
friends...

~~~
danaliv
Ditto. We should all be careful to make "I" statements here.

------
lurchpop
Why are they characterizing $50k as "high paying?" That's median income for
Washington state, and generally medians tend to skew low in terms of the
lifestyle they afford.

~~~
jonbarker
In America, it's not the pay that gets you, it's the rising cost of living and
the medical bankruptcy.

------
beiller
I think the cause effect relationship here is not quite what the headline
implies. The fact that the trades are high paying, is obviously just
correlated with high school grads lining up for university. For example not
taking the trades job and going to school instead, lowers the trades' supply
of workers, raising their wage.

edit for speculation

Young people see trades as something that will be automated away and there is
little future in them. Thanks AI headlines!

------
moorhosj
More evidence that the labor market doesn’t fit the traditional supply/demand
economic theory. The ongoing trucker shortage is another example.

------
intopieces
These attitudes come in cycles. If the trades are a resurgence, the children
of those who entered it will be pressed to go to college, whatever that looks
like in 30 years. If we have any interest in breaking this cycle, we must
actively decouple employment and job title from identity. Given the pace of
automation, this decoupling cannot come too soon.

------
lowbloodsugar
Remember when $55k was a good middleclass wage and would buy you a house in
seattle where these guys are working?

~~~
astrange
Well, remember $55k is a good wage for all consumer needs in the US except
costs of urban housing, healthcare and education services. It's not about
inflation, it's about rent-seeking and "cost disease".

[http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-
cost-...](http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-
disease/)

------
aj7
This only works if the young tradesman starts his/her own business within 5
years. Otherwise, it’s a loser.

------
antisthenes
A few key points that these articles usually miss.

1\. $50,000 is not enough money to become a homeowner by yourself and not
nearly enough for upward mobility. Missing 4 years of college and the ability
to mingle within your peers is a significant part of the rising cost of
college. There are articles that show womens preferences towards men with
similar education levels.

2\. When you account for the health hazards and potential issues down the road
with your joints and other components of your body, the pay isn't that high.
Cost of medical coverage continues to rise and I'm not sure that going into
the trades or into business for yourself in general is a valid path for the
majority of high school graduates.

3\. There are high paying skilled trades, but they have caveats of their own.
For example, underwater welding, is not only extremely dangerous, but also,
very likely, seasonal and not anchored to any one location, requiring someone
to be constantly mobile.

4\. What matters isn't how much the job pays compared to a state or national
average. It's whether it pays more than the median for the radius where the
tradesperson will be operating.

~~~
flubert
>1\. $50,000 is not enough money to become a homeowner by yourself

1900 sq. ft., $44,900 -- [https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/709-East-St-
Spencer-SD-57...](https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/709-East-St-Spencer-
SD-57374/2110985274_zpid/)

2342 sq. ft., $46,500 --
[https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/KS/77201215_zpid/23_ri...](https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/KS/77201215_zpid/23_rid/10000-50000_price/40-201_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/42.747012,-91.285401,34.034452,-105.347901_rect/5_zm/)

1800 sq. ft., $39,900 --
[https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/WV/2089907837_zpid/61_...](https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/WV/2089907837_zpid/61_rid/10000-50000_price/40-201_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/41.071069,-76.668091,36.738884,-83.699341_rect/6_zm/)

~~~
downrightmike
all fly over states

~~~
selimthegrim
[https://www.zillow.com/homes/New-
Orleans,-LA_rb/19594_rid/](https://www.zillow.com/homes/New-
Orleans,-LA_rb/19594_rid/)

------
Apocryphon
"In all, some 30 million jobs in the United States that pay an average of
$55,000 per year don't require bachelor's degrees, according to the Georgetown
Center on Education and the Workforce."

One wonders how much they are paid in high CoL places like the Bay Area.

~~~
z4chj
I don't have any data to support this, but I would imagine that those high CoL
areas are what causes that number to be up around $55,000. The numbers in the
article from the individuals in the story were for the Seattle area. Although
its no bay area, it isn't the midwest either. In most parts of the country
that aren't the coasts or a major city, the average is probably significantly
lower

------
jonbarker
I've often wondered, why are these considered mutually exclusive career paths?
Someone with an undergraduate degree in some quantitative field with exposure
to a 'blue collar' line of work is suddenly in a very interesting position
IMO.

------
BillSaysThis
This Old House had a portion of every episode in the last season devoted to
this issue by including apprentices in their team as well as publicizing
programs for (young) people who might be inspired by that. I thought they did
this well.

------
gaius
It is the same in the UK thanks to Tony Bliar. The working class stabbed in
the back by the so-called Labour Party. And they are no better now, still
pushing university as the only way.

------
Snackchez
Solution to filling up those jobs: pay a lot more than 50k.

------
sureaboutthis
Just to throw it out there, I own a restaurant, and about 25% of my staff are
college degreed people who can't find a job in their field.

------
influnza
Then let's hope that those college kids build robots to do hard and life
threatening work for them!

------
intopieces
A common theme in these articles is “nobody told me.” “Nobody told me this was
an option.” “Nobody told me these jobs paid so well.”

A hard lesson to learn, and one I wish my school had given me, is that nobody
tells you anything in America. Our social safety net is a good job market.

