

Schiit Happened, 2015 Chapter 4: Bridging the Gap - DiabloD3
http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/5340#post_11334721

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ploxiln
He compares audio playback quality to food nutrition. It's true, nutrition is
far from fully understood. Audio playback as heard by human ears is perhaps
not 100% understood, but it's much much closer.

A human being does not need more than 44.1 KHz audio playback. If anyone
claims you need a higher sample rate for audio that sounds better, they're
lying (whether they realize it or not).

More than 16 bits per sample just lowers the noise floor, and at 16 bits, it's
pretty damn low. For playback, you really won't need more. Again, if someone
professes the subtle string quartets and powerful metal jams you can only get
with more bits per sample, they're lying.

It is true that better headphones will make a real difference, it is true that
you can (barely) do noticeably better than 160kbps mp3 (for stereo). But audio
engineers understand enough about how the human ear really works to know that
more than about 44 KHz or more than about 16 bits per sample truly does not
help for final audio playback.

All that to say, this two facts are not like nutrition, and they're not a
matter of "some people may hear a difference, but I don't". Selling something
as better for playback because of 96KHz / 24bit audio is preying on human
weaknesses of judgement, when we know scientifically that these specific two
things don't help.

It's been posted a bunch, but this is a really great demonstration of digital
audio fundamentals
[https://wiki.xiph.org/Videos/Digital_Show_and_Tell](https://wiki.xiph.org/Videos/Digital_Show_and_Tell)

~~~
DiabloD3
I really wish people would quit posting Xiph links as if it proves things.

What we DO know is that our ears no not work anyway like how we represent
audio in PCM form. We know that they are highly sensitive in some frequency
ranges, and that sensitivity includes higher temporal impulse precision than
is required, such as the 300-3khz band used for human speech.

As in, for some frequency bands, our "sampling rate" (if such a thing could be
applied apples to apples in human hearing) is higher than in others. I suspect
this may be related to our ability to localize 3D perfectly sound with only
two ears.

Not only that, but also in some frequency bands, we can detect finer
differences in sound level than 16 bit can describe.

So no, 16 bit/44.1khz probably is not sufficient.

Also, you bring up lossy encoding which has no place in this discussion. If
you want to discuss how lossy codecs exploit the flaws in hearing to compress
audio better, talk about codecs that use wavelets and are highly effective at
what they do due to a finely tuned psychoacoustic model, such as exploiting
that our "sampling rate" and "bit depth" are non-linear across frequency
bands.

~~~
korethr
A reason (probably one of the main ones, IMO) people post Xiph links is
because they contain very well reasoned arguments, backed up evidence (i.e the
math of how digital audio works, or in the case of the the video linked in the
parent, actual meassurement). When seeing arguments on why 16-bit/44.1kHz is
insufficient, I more often see faualty reasoning and a lack of evidence to
support the arguments being made.

You are correct in that human hearing is highly sensitive in the 300-3kHz
band, and that sensitivities to minute timing and phase differences between
the ears helps us accurately localize sound with only two ears. But I fail to
see how that is relevant to whether or not 16-bit/44.kHz digital audio being
enough to reproduce sound without audible distortion.

Are you aware of some evidence that shows how 16-bit/44.1Khz is insufficent? I
would be very interested to see it.

~~~
DiabloD3
There isn't enough research being done on that frontier yet. We know the
300-3khz has a "higher sampling rate" than 44.1khz, but we don't know how
high.

However, I'm actually happy with properly mastered 16/44.1 on a proper DAC
that has THD and noise levels below what is required for 16 bit (which I can
get for $100 in an external DAC, for $150 with multiple inputs, from Schiit).

The big issue is, they don't properly master them, and releasing the HD
versions seems to lessen the impact of an improper master (such as we can hear
finer steps in volume than 16 bit can do when all the samples have a smaller
dynamic range, but we can't if they had mastered everything with 12+ bits of
dynamic range like the creators of CDs had intended).

Honestly, if CDs had chosen 20/48 instead of 16/44.1, most of this bullshit
would have never happened.

tl;dr I'm a bigger proponent of increased bitdepth over sampling rate, but I'm
happy if I get both to get just one.

------
legulere
> Why not just say, “Well, I understand that these guys are trying to offer
> higher resolution music, and some people may hear a difference, but I don’t,
> let’s move on to the latest Android phone.”

Because they simply can't. This has been tested so often. So far no human
being was found that can hear the difference.

HiFi seems pretty rotten to me. There are lots of points where today the
cheapest option is just as good as ones for thousands of dollars (cables being
the best example). HiFi people spend thousands on voodoo, yet spending money
on products that have a bigger focus on design is seen as a waste of money.

The only thing that really separates HiFi from consumer audio is speaker size

~~~
jkot
I only do headphones. I can recognize 160kbps mp3 from 320kbps. Decent
headphone setup is around $500, with performance of a few milliwatts.

Now scale power 1000x, I bet price will go up as well. Probably exponentially.

~~~
signa11
> Decent headphone setup is around $500

may you please suggest a couple in that range ? i currently have a b&w p5,
which i am thinking of upgrading...

~~~
jkot
It is not just headphones, but also amplifier and DA. My stuff is 10 years
old, so I am probably not best adviser. And I have more sets, one is bit more
pricey.

Anyway for daily beating at office I would recommend DT 770 PRO, 80 Ohms. In
my opinion best closed studio headphones for reasonable price. Mine are ten
years old now. I believe in-ear demages hearing. I also dont like active noise
cancellation. Also check some foldable options if you travel a lot.

You will also need USB soundcard with headphones amplifier. Some devices
combine both. I have EMU Tracker Pre USB 2.0, but thats no longer sold. Not
sure what today market is, but this seems to have good reviews:
[http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-E10-USB-Headphone-
Amplifier/dp/B0...](http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-E10-USB-Headphone-
Amplifier/dp/B005VO7LG6/)

~~~
dublinben
An expensive USB soundcard and amplifier are absolutely not necessary. The
built-in audio of a Macbook Pro (this is HN we're talking about) is more than
good enough.

~~~
jkot
Bullshit. Thats are 80 ohm professional studio headphones. Wasted money
without amplifier. Even novice can pickup difference in 10 minutes.

~~~
frou_dh
I have experience using several good headphones (K701, HD650) amped and
unamped in the past. At the moment, I happily use a set of 250 Ohm 770s
straight out of a MBP. Sounds fantastic. Does this trigger you?

~~~
jkot
I do it sometimes as well, I would not call sound fantastic, but its ok for
movies and remastered (flat) music. But so does $120 Major.

I just think it is really bad advice. Why buy expensive headphones optimised
for amps without amp? Just waste of money.

~~~
frou_dh
Waste of money is something that makes marginal gain.

BadPhones -> GoodPhones

is a much greater step than

UnampedGoodPhones -> AmpedGoodPhones.

\---

(of course there's always an amp, Unamped just means no beefy one)

~~~
jkot
I think we are two different threads. Signa11 already has good headphones,
even amp and DA. Question is what headphones, DA and amp is best for upgrade.
I am sorry, I just disagree that mac book pro is the answer.

~~~
frou_dh
You -> dublinben -> you -> me is a very coherent thread.

But yes, it's not worth arguing about unless we could all sit together and
test some equipment.

