

HTML5-based Windows 8 enrages .Net devs, alienates Linux and Mono - jfruh
http://www.itworld.com/mobile-wireless/171285/parting-linux-and-mono

======
adolfojp
I made the following angry rant on reddit. I think that it also fits here.

The idea that .NET is going to be replaced by HTML5 and JavaScript is
absolutely ridiculous. The only people who can make that claim are those who
don't really know what .NET is. It is a desktop stack, a server stack, a
runtime for many languages, those many languages themselves, and countless
libraries that are being actively developed. HTML5 and JS is a minimalistic
client side technology. One cannot replace the other. They are not analogous
technologies.

The biggest changes that could happen are:

1\. HTML5 and JS become another presentation layer for .NET apps.

2\. HTML5 and JS get hooks to allow it to be used to write basic App Store
style apps and gadgets. (Gadgets are currently written in html and js so there
would be no change there.)

3\. HTML5 and JS become another dev platform for the Windows Phone.

4\. Silverlight gets slowly phased out.

That is, unless you believe that Microsoft secretly worked for 5 years to
create a dev platform that is based on a technology that became popular just
last year that can be used to replace every development technology like C++,
.NET, etc., and that can be used to write anything from server side apps to
games to database servers to operating system components. Do you really think
that Microsoft is that good of a software company?

But of course, this is all speculation, just like all of these sensationalist
articles and threads. And nothing of value can come out of this. I can't wait
for the formal announcement to be made. The amount of retarded discourse that
the Win 8 announcement made is absolutely depressing.

~~~
kenjackson
I think I'm on record pretty well for not being anti-MS, but let me play
devil's advocate and tell you what really is happening ;-)

I'm going to phrase everything as fact, although purely speculation (an old
parlor game, if you will). I have no insider knowledge.

* On the server it will stay .NET. I'll grant you that.

* On the client MS only supports HTML for the tile UI. Launching any other apps opens it in the explorer shell.

* Why? Windows doesn't believe in .NET.

* Why did MS push .NET on the client as recently as a couple of week ago? Because MS is not a monolith. Windows wants IE to be the rendering engine for Windows, while the dev tools group is pushing SL.

* Sinofsky is winning the internal battle. He owns Windows and what Windows ships. VS/CLR can ship new versions of the CLR, but they can't control what Sinofsky/Windows does.

* Ballmer doesn't have the internal power to face off against Sinofsky, but he can throttle STB.

* Everyone thought Muglia got ousted because of Cloud. That was just a part of it. It was because he didn't get inline with the HTML message. He tried to cause a ruckus by getting the message out there, but was shutdown. Everyone in STB now knows to keep their mouth shut.

* Guthrie was told that he's a shining star, but stars won't shine coming from SL. Get over to Azure, and you're still on track for President.

* WP7 uses SL because IE wasn't ready. The SL team took this as their chance to make a big impact and show that SL was indispensible and desired. Good effort, but at the end didn't matter. It will still be replaced.

* MS has no problem killing presentation layers. They killed probably the most popular desktop layer of all time, VB6. They killed WinForms. They let MFC rot slowly with no replacement. WPF was never given much chance to live.

* MS is thinking that iOS took off with Objective-C. A more difficult langauge to learn and with no real dev base prior to 2008. Windows feels that HTML is easier to learn and already has millions of devs. If MS builds a great platform with lots of eyeballs, the devs will show up.

~~~
bad_user
Microsoft should kill unsuccessful tools; internal competition is not bad, but
actually good.

WPF is an abomination that was bred to torture developers - basically the Java
EE of the UI world.

Also, if you ask iOS devs, they'll tell you that it's the best platform for
developers, ever - the UI layer has stylish widgets that work out-of-the-box,
they can share code with OS X projects in C/C++, they get to use Cocoa, XCode
and the development environment is a real Unix.

And I'm also going to mention Android - while not as stylish as iOS, the
development model is so close to web apps it's actually beautiful. Also the
dev tools, since they leverage Java, work on ANY OS.

Also, lots of devs create Javascript/HTML UIs (served from WebViews) on both
platforms, while there's special glue that accesses low-level functionality.

Microsoft would be mad to ignore this trend. They are already on a serious
decline in regards to developer mind-share and the environment they provide is
really closed to the outside world.

Did you know that you can share code between Android and iOS through C++? Both
can run C++, both have OpenGL ES. But there's no such thing on WinMo 7, it
forces you to use dotNET with Silverlight and Direct3D. That's only one
mistake in a whole series of mistakes they've done and I'm wondering how much
are their heads stuck up their buts.

~~~
quanticle

      And I'm also going to mention Android - while not as 
      stylish as iOS, the development model is so close to web
      apps it's actually beautiful.
    

Really? To be quite honest, I found Android's development model to be closer
to Silverlight/WPF than true web development. The relation between the XML-
based layout language and the Java code behind reminded me much more of the
relation between XAML and C# than HTML and Javascript.

~~~
bad_user
I'm not referring to the way UI is described with XML, although as I've
mentioned there are people doing UI with HTML/Javascript (see
<http://www.phonegap.com/> for starters).

Android apps can have multiple entry points, just like web apps by means of
URLs. From one app you can jump into another app while opening a specific
screen. Android apps have a functional back-button that works by default (as
in, the developer doesn't have to do anything to benefit from it). Android
apps are very composable as normally they expose APIs that can be used by
other apps (the environment encourages it by means of intents, services,
broadcast receivers and the multiple entry points I mentioned above). Android
apps give the impression of being always on, since you can't rely on an app to
stay alive you have to implement life-cycle management (e.g. save the user's
data and the app's state as soon as you can).

What I describe above is by no means unique to Android apps (iOS apps are
usually as well behaved, or even more so), but Android makes it natural. On
the other hand, Android apps in Google's market look like shit but the stock
widgets are getting better so hopefully people will stop feeling compelled to
color their buttons blue :)

------
pilif
As I said here, <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2615797>, I strongly
believe that the windows 8 UI we have seen so far is more or less just an
improved widget/gadget shell, like a fullscreen Mac Dashboard.

I really think that real, full-fledged applications will still be written in
whatever languages are available today. All of this fear is IMHO just plain
FUD

~~~
sevenproxies
I think the HTML5 and JS technology in Windows 8 is simply another software
development framework and not meant to replace .net and friends. Perhaps
Microsoft is looking to encourage the development of apps (in such a way that
Apple has demonstrated with the App Store). .net will still be available for
the larger and/or more involving programs. Remember, Windows is popular
because of Microsoft's firm dedication to backwards compatibility (for better
or worse).

------
iqster
As others have noted, this article does some fear mongering. But it does raise
some issues:

1) WPF might potentially go away. I'm glad I didn't waste any time learning
this so I can care less. People who bought into "WPF is the future" might be
unhappy but learned a valuable lesson. I myself learned this lesson with the
"Compact Framework is the future" hype. I learned to be skeptical of
proprietary stacks from then on.

2) As other posters have mentioned, a lot of apps have front and backends. For
shops that use MSFT tech, .net isn't going away from the backend by any means.

3) HTML 5 + JS do let you build apps that are a lot closer to the Desktop
experience than previously. If you haven't already, check out these slides
(link:<http://slides.html5rocks.com/#landing-slide>) and be prepared to be
blown away. In fact, Google's Chrome initiative is betting that you can write
most application front-ends in the browser now. If MSFT starts supporting
these apps in a nice way, this might certainly make HTML5+JS the preferred way
of building application front ends (I guess WinForm developers would be ticked
off at this).

4) The Windows 8 HTML apps reminded me of the Vista sidebar widget in some
ways. Wasn't there going to be a whole market place of apps? There was a lot
of hype but it never happened. Thankfully, I had learned my lesson by the time
I encountered the "sidebar gadget apps are the future" hype.

------
wccrawford
I still remember the uproar when .NET was first announced, and how it was
widely predicted it would utterly fail, and people who couldn't understand why
anyone would use it.

IT evolves constantly, and you have to stay with it. Getting upset about it
changing is pointless and being stuck on 1 technology will quickly see your
business left behind.

~~~
51Cards
Couldn't agree more. I was also in the thick of things when .NET came out. We
had a large established base of apps on the pre-existing versions of Visual
Studio. The whole migration nightmare/uproar to .NET is still fresh in my mind
and I clearly remember how the .NET supporters fundamentally said "Time to
move on". Small bit of irony that now (in some cases) time to move on applies
to .NET itself. (though I wholeheartedly agree that most of this uproar is
silly, .NET is much more robust and flexible than HTML5 and not in any danger
of being "replaced")

Still brings a small smile to my face though when I see .NET developers upset
about no viable migration path forward. This cycle will repeat again in X
years, it's the nature of the biz. Most of our careers are going to span
several major shifts in technology and you just roll with it.

------
gigantor
I've used .net nearly exclusively for the past 8 years in my career and still
believe this is all some stunt to generate negative hype.

If this so-called uproar is caused by developers who are not willing to
upgrade their skills, they shouldn't be in this business. The same event
occured with VB6, which was replaced by .net, which will be replaced by
something better, and everyone started reading their books again. Even if MS
ends support for .net tomorrow (which it won't, i.e. WinXP tenure) too many
companies are locked into .net technology and they'll still have work to come
for years while they finally evolve to a new technology.

If you really dislike change and still want to call yourself a programmer,
transition to embedded devices and stick to low level ASM or C which should be
around for a while.

~~~
teyc
We continue to support a complex VB6 app (started development in 94). It is
too expensive to port the entire app over, and now VB6 is left to languish.
There are some problems with building some controls in 64 bit environment and
we can't get support for it. Remember going from VB6 to .NET is a massive and
risky investment. Why move if you think you are going to be abandoned again?

------
moskie
As an ASP.Net/C# developer, I saw these new HTML5/JS tiles as an opportunity
for my skills to be applied in a new context. I'm actually pretty excited
about that.

------
bdfh42
Tabloid style shock/horror. Skip it.

~~~
watty
Well I thought it was a decent article with a sensational headline. I don't
know any real .NET developers who are "enraged" nor does the article say this.

~~~
teyc
I'm one.

------
majmun
.Net developer here, and im not enraged but feel satisfied with these events .
i allready use javascript/JSON extensively because it has better integration
with windows/.net/browser than Silverlight. There is advantage for silverlight
in performance I believe but that is slowly changing now. because of browser
competition.

Silverlight could have bought me if it was integrated in browser by default
like Javascript/HTML. That seemed like logical step but they didn't do it for
some reason (if im not mistakeing)

------
runjake
Wasn't Silverlight $future_version going to be HTML5/JS/CSS based? It seems to
me that means Windows 8 apps would be Silverlight $future_version-based.

I'm lucky enough to be within earshot of a number of world-notable
.NET/Silverlight developers and they're far from enraged, in fact quite the
opposite, they're cautiously optimistic.

This is probably a good thing, really. Let's not scathe Microsoft for moving
towards openness.

~~~
zemoo
Interestingly enough, it wasn't $future_version, but version 1.0, that didn't
even support .NET and was scriptable only through JS. Silverlight is still
scriptable through JS to this day. Given that Silverlight already supports a
hybrid model I can image we could expect that to continue, with HTML as a
possible alternative UI langauge to XAML.

------
luffy
Does HTML5 have an element that is similar to an scrollable editable grid,
with column headers that don't scroll? I know a lot of people hate that UI
idiom, but it's very common and as long as people like to use Excel, this
idiom isn't going anywhere.

Doing grids are a breeze w/ .NET. I don't think "use jqgrid" is an acceptable
solution here... I'm asking about native HTML, the stuff that everyone is
bragging about.

~~~
chadcf
There are at least dozens if not hundreds of such grids done with html and
javascript.

~~~
contextfree
I tried a few of the most popular ones last year, none were satisfactory.

~~~
nxn
ExtJS's set of grid panels was just about the most impressive one I've seen
thus far (tree grids, group grids, paging grids, features for
filtering/searching, sorting, hide/show columns, binding to xml/json/direct,
etc). Though it would probably huge overkill to tie yourself into the whole
framework just for one widget.

Examples: <http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/examples/#sample-2>

~~~
edtechdev
yeah see also dojo's grid (grids I should say, there are several)

jquery.sheet

yui grid

not sure if Google's closure library has a grid control

and of course there are GWT, qooxdoo, etc.

Heres a table comparing javascript frameworks, and there's a row for which
have a grid control.

------
bad_user

        Meanwhile, de Icaza has formed his own startup, 
        Xamarin, which will keep working on Mono and 
        commercial .NET stacks. But here's something 
        interesting:the Xamarin home page highlights .NET 
        development for iOS and Android, not Linux
    

Can yellow journalism get any worse than already is?

~~~
teyc
Actually, thank goodness for Xamarin and HTML (Windows 8). We will no longer
be beholden to Microsoft with our future work.

------
timinman
HMMM Just thinking... what if Linux distros used HTML5/Javascript for a GUI
Desktop Shell (Like Windows 8)? What if it became a true cross-platform
development environment?

~~~
rbanffy
That's exactly why W8 will certainly have lots of proprietary objects you'll
need to call in order to do anything useful.

~~~
Revisor
For incompatibilities there would/will quickly rise frameworks that abstract
you from them.

~~~
rbanffy
Fair enough. They'll have to devise a better strategy to prevent that

------
Ruudjah
It seems killing Volta brings back the electricity at Microsoft.

