
The Trouble with the Segway - mqt
http://paulgraham.com/segway.html
======
andreyf
Steve Jobs' take on the Segway:

 _"I think it's coming along," said Tim, "though we expect—" "I think it
sucks!" said Jobs.

His vehemence made Tim pause. "Why?" he asked, a bit stiffly.

"It just does. [...] Its shape is not innovative, it's not elegant, it doesn't
feel anthropomorphic."_

This is from "Code Name Ginger: The Story Behind Segway and Dean Kamen's Quest
to Invent a New World". The chapter with the meeting with Jobs is available
here:

<http://hbswk.hbs.edu/archive/3533.html>

~~~
Xichekolas
While not Steve Jobs, I will always remember Maddox's thoughts on the Segway:

[http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=segway_more_...](http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=segway_more_complicated_than_it_needs_to_be)

~~~
pingswept
I liked that rant, until I reached the part making fun of FETs: "What the hell
does a FET do? Nobody knows, but I guarantee some nerd spent months writing a
graduate thesis on why it's important (and failing)."

That's just ignorant. FETs are week ~3 of an intro EE class. It's like saying
"What the hell does a function do?" to make fun of C.

~~~
mixmax
Well nobody except programmers know what a function does.

~~~
mahmud
Not even the great majority of programmers _know_ what a function does;
programmer talk must sound like the script of Idiocracy to mathematicians
("Hey, this function returns an integer and sets a flag on error".)

------
jknupp
And here I thought the reason the Segway never caught on was because it was
prohibitively expensive to own and didn't fulfill any real need.

~~~
brk
What is your definition of "caught on"? They're doing about $50MM/yr in
business, so there is a market.

The problem with Segway, IMHO, is that the initial hype was completely
misdirected and Dean Kamen drinks far too much of his own Kool-Aid.

Segway has made a good inroads in the police and security market, as well as
the tourism markets.

For what it does best, it's really not that prohibitive, but for consumer
transportation, there is less ROI in most cases.

~~~
DannoHung
I wonder what would Segway's market be like if they could make a 20mph version
that was safe to drive on city streets.

~~~
mbrubeck
For the price of a segway you can get a motorcycle or a scooter or a moped or
an electric bike, and drive it on city streets. Yet most Americans still drive
cars. What benefits does a turbocharged Segway offer that these other options
don't?

~~~
jpwagner
If you could flip a switch and the segway could go operate in the 10-70mph
range, and flip it back to operate in the 0-10mph range, you could transition
from street to sidewalk (vehicle to pedestrian.)

This would be worth the extra money and not be uncool.

~~~
JacobAldridge
Even at 70mph you'd still run into the problem pg expouses - looking like an
effortless dork.

As for this bit - _"imagine something that worked like the Segway, but that
you rode with one foot in front of the other, like a skateboard. That wouldn't
seem nearly as uncool."_ \- have you seen the Scarpar? It's only 35mph, but
definitely, definitely cool.

<http://www.scarpar.com/video.html>

~~~
jhancock
at 70mph, you'd look like a dork committing suicide.

~~~
jdbeast00
are you serious? this may be what the segway needs. Extreme segway sports. If
i saw someone going 70 mph on a segway, my first thought would certainly not
be 'what a square'.

------
ivankirigin
Dean Kamen has got to be one of the most arrogant engineers in the world
(though obviously really talented too). You can't bring up why Seqway's were
retarded without mentioning that personality.

I might also point out that the reason they failed so spectacularly was a
ridiculous level of hype. "Revolutionize transportation" just doesn't fit a
reconfigured motorized bicycle.

Having aggressively ridden one while towing a rollerblader with a bungee cord,
I can say for sure the most successful marketing would have been as an
entertainment and recreational vehicle. Then they'd be like ATVs, but
permissible in urban areas. Also, you wouldn't compare the price to a bicycle
(10X) but to an ATV (0.5X depending)

~~~
amelim
Dean may be arrogant, but I find it hard to fault him when his foundation of
the FIRST robotics league for high schoolers has impacted my life so
significantly. I participated in the 2006 year with my high school as a senior
and now I'm working at a major commercial and government robotics company. His
outreach to students through the FIRST organization is one of the best science
technology activities for teenagers.

~~~
ivankirigin
Kamen isn't the only one involved in FIRST, by far. It's a symptom of the
personality that you would react like that.

~~~
amelim
Perhaps. He's not the only person involved with FIRST (probably not even the
most important), and my praise has more to do with the actual event than the
person. Honestly, when it comes down to it, I could care less about someone's
personality. It's more about their actual achievements (of which he's had both
hits and misses).

------
jamesb43
The best thing the Segway has contributed to society are the antics of Will
Arnett's character, Gob, on Arrested Development. He showed just how dorky the
Segway really is.

------
timdellinger
I put the Segway in the same category as the fanny pack. They both _seem_ like
they ought to be useful, but for the most part both are more trouble than
they're worth in actual practice. Plus they offend our sense of aesthetics in
hard to define ways.

~~~
mrtron
Joe Rogan is aggressively trying to make the fanny pack cool.

Places your bets on the successfulness of it :)

~~~
khafra
The fanny pack enjoys some islets of popularity; for example, fixie-riding
hipsters and ccw fans. I'd be surprised if they caught on among comedy/UFC
fans, but it could happen.

------
maxharris
I have a Segway (a black i2). I'm sure that people think I'm a dork, but that
doesn't bother me. It's fun to ride, and it gets me to class on time, unlike
the bus.

Graham's comments are dead-on, but don't let that stop you from getting one if
you want. What other people think (especially the average man on the street)
doesn't matter as long as you don't want anything from them.

~~~
andreyf
Yeah, that's not how most people work. Whether we admit it or not, we want
people to like us even if we'll never see them again.

~~~
grandalf
may be true, but if you are so sensitive that you care if someone thinks you
are a dork for riding a segway then you deserve to walk.

~~~
jonknee
Fashion is a multi billion dollar industry--people care greatly about how they
look. You may not, but you are the outlier.

~~~
grandalf
It is just signaling, not design. The segway does emit a strong signal, which
is why its design is hated...

Few people hate or love the design of the ford taurus, for example. And, few
would call it great design or horrible design. It emits a weak signal.

I'd argue that if kamen changed the segway design it would just appeal to a
different set of people, it wouldn't really be better. There is nothing wrong
with the design. It is simple and without stupid frills.

------
quellhorst
The trouble with the segway is that is isn't better than a bicycle. The 12.5
mph top speed of the segway feels slow to me when I'm on my bike. My range on
a bike is also further than the segway and it also makes me healthier.

What the segway needs is to be made faster, you must go faster than 25 mph and
it needs to compete better against bicycles and scooters.

------
ccc3
I agree that the dork factor is working against the Segway, but I don't think
it's the dominant factor in it's failure. If Segways were significantly better
solutions to the problem of transportation in dense areas, ordinary people
would have started to use them and the dork factor would have faded away.

In my view the biggest reason for the Segway's failure is that it's a product
designed for an infrastructure that doesn't exist. Kamen and his team
envisioned cities without cars when they were designing the Segway.
Unfortunately all that's available are crowded sidewalks, making the Segway
the most expensive way to move along at walking pace.

~~~
robg
I agree on the infrastructure part. Still it does seem like we're moving in
the direction they've envisioned. Some European countries are now closing some
streets to car traffic and NYC recently closed sections around Times Square.
The car culture is changing but it's going to take a while.

Even then though, I don't think the Segway will ever succeed in that market as
currently designed. It is dorky. Problem is, I don't know what an alternative
should look like. It feels like I'll know it when I see it.

------
philwelch
_Try this thought experiment and it becomes clear: imagine something that
worked like the Segway, but that you rode with one foot in front of the other,
like a skateboard. That wouldn't seem nearly as uncool._

 _So there may be a way to capture more of the market Segway hoped to reach:
make a version that doesn't look so easy for the rider. It would also be
helpful if the styling was in the tradition of skateboards or bicycles rather
than medical devices."_

There's such a thing as an "electric skateboard", Randall Munroe (creator of
xkcd) is fond of them.

------
jacquesm
Sure the segway has it's issues (as does Dean Kamen) but that didn't stop him
from amassing a cool billion + dollars so it seems he's doing something right.

The guy holds 100+ patents and instead of resting on his laurels he just keeps
going. He certainly has my respect (for the work he did, that he got wealthy
of it is secondary to me).

Anybody that would want to use a segway but doesn't because it makes them look
smug has self confidence issues that the segway could never cure. If you need
it and can afford it use it otherwise don't. Image doesn't enter in to the
equation.

That's the same nonsense that top gear gets in to, cars for hairdressers and
that sort of crap.

~~~
Devilboy
Dean is wrong most of the time, but he's doing it so frequently that it
doesn't matter. The couple of hits made him pretty damn wealthy.

~~~
jacquesm
I know people that are never wrong. They also don't accomplish much, in fact
they are so 'safe' I doubt they'll ever do something in the first place.

If you do a lot chances are that you'll be wrong plenty of times. Given the
average score of hits:misses Dean Kamen is comfortably outperforming pretty
much any poster on HN, on top of that he seems to be a half decent human being
trying to solve problems that really matter. His success rate is only part of
the picture. Sure he's got an ego and there seems to be a disconnect with
respect to how some 'ordinary' people perceive his products. But I guess that
once you reach that level you have to be a very balanced person not to let it
get to you in some way.

There is some correlation between having a billion dollars in excess income
and being out of touch.

------
rewind
All I can think of now when I hear someone reference the Segwey is Woz playing
Segwey polo on one. If that doesn't say dorky, I don't know what does.

~~~
jodrellblank
The Segway features in Weird Al Yankovic's "White and Nerdy", lumped into the
same category as doing vector calculus for fun, fluency in Klingon and wearing
a pocket protector...

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbVtbc_XzrI>

------
adamhowell
I've used the Segway example before when arguing with people against stealth
startups. The big reveal just isn't worth the potential downside.

Expecially with something like the Segway, where they needed buy-in from local
government to let the things on the sidewalks.

But, yeah, North Dumpling Island is all you need to know about the wackiness
that is Dean Kamen (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dumpling_Island> and
[http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/08/dean-kamens-led-
nat...](http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/08/dean-kamens-led-nation/))

------
ohlol
I disagree with the assertion that the reason people dislike Segways is
because they make the rider look smug. I think it's because the people you see
riding them ARE dorks. It's more of a guilt by association issue than
anything.

~~~
robg
I'm with pg. Take the recent movie with the mall cop. I only saw the trailer
(I swear!) but a cop in uniform, even the rental version, isn't really dorky.
But put him on a Segway and hilarity ensues!

Another thought experiment:

1) Cop on a horse

2) Cop on a motorcycle

3) Cop on a mountain bike

4) Cop on a Segway

I've ordered them, I think, from toughest to dorkiest. Maybe you could swap
the horse and motorcycle (though horses are huge). But is there any doubt the
Segway is in last place and by far?

~~~
ohlol
Mmm, I think rental/mall cops are plenty dorky. They don't have guns, or for
that matter any other tools to subdue perps, do they? That makes them pretty
harmless in my eyes.

Have you seen the Segway tours? <http://bit.ly/4J4yJ>

Throw some dubs or spinnas on those bad boys, and they'd still look like
dorks.

edit- But I do agree with your list. Horses > motorcycles, for sure.

~~~
shpxnvz
_Throw some dubs or spinnas on those bad boys, and they'd still look like
dorks._

Funny, personally I think that cars with spinners and huge rims looks quite a
bit more dorky then Segways.

The big difference between the two is that the Segway never had a sufficiently
counter-cultural fan base, and therefore had exactly the wrong sort of
exclusivity.

~~~
ohlol
Exactly--20" rims and spinners got popular _because of the people who
initially bought them_. If you started seeing rappers riding Segways, things
would be a bit different.

Case in point: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geIsWq5xOSE>

Scraper bikes are all over Oakland. Do they look cool? Nope.

------
10ren
Remember China's military segways?
<http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2008/07/chinese-police/>

I hate to admit it, but pg is right. Even in a cooler design, in black, and
wearing SWAT gear with machine guns etc, they still makes them look like
dorks.

Maybe... if segways _had_ become wildly popular, we wouldn't think so?
Fashions do change perceptions (consider the 70's). But in this present
reality, I think pg is right.

------
thunk
I'm fascinated by how few of you agree that it failed because it looks smug.
It seems so obvious! People on Segways look like they feel entitled to coast
around standing at a podium, a mobile soapbox. That's it, plain and simple.
Price: irrelevant. Utility: irrelevant. Inspiring instinctual revulsion in
onlookers: relevant. It's the vehicular embodiment of Comic Book Guy's voice.

Edit: This is probably why a lot of geeks have a blind spot here.

Edit2: And it's not the laziness or uncoolness of it that's the problem
either. Take the goddam Hoverround -- if anything's worthy of scorn, it is.
And yet it sells like crazy. No, the exact, specific problem with the Segway
is you look like you're standing at a podium.

------
frankus
Too bad my YC application for a Segway-style skateboard startup got rejected
:P

(It was probably my lousy application that sunk it, combined with the fact
that my co-founder couldn't move to the Bay Area, combined with the difficulty
in scaling a manufacturing enterprise at rates that would interest VC money).

Anyway the idea was to take something like this:

<http://3wdm.blogspot.com/>

...and make it about half the size, half the weight, and not homemade-looking.
I still have some of the spares from that project (the original was stolen)
that I'll try and put something together with soon.

~~~
trapper
That is seriously cool. Go for it!

------
gfodor
Spot on. Kamen just needed to change the design a bit so it would look cool
and fun to ride. Add a seat, make the rider lean into it, angle the
handlebars, whatever.

The bottom line is you need to make the person look like they are "driving"
and "riding" and not "being transported."

All they needed to do was the "teenager test" -- put it in front of a bunch of
high school kids and see if they'd ride it in front of each other.

~~~
grandalf
I think the current version would easily pass that test. I went to the Best
Buy store in Palo Alto where you can demo one for free. The guy there told me
that after hours they race it around the store and parking lot, etc. Customer
demos are limited to "turtle mode" but it was still incredibly fun to ride.

I could see teenagers mocking it if they could't afford one (which most could
not) but there is no doubt it's one of the most fun things I've ever ridden --
probably even more fun than skateboarding.

------
lutorm
I think people are yelling insults because they know a Segway is a really
expensive toy and they are jealous they can't blow that amount of money on
something so frivolous.

~~~
jodrellblank
So you predict people will yell insults at supercar owners too?

~~~
dougp
A lot of people do or worse at least where I grew up.

------
mrtron
I would like to give a completely different reason why the Segway sucks.

Great public transit blows it out of the water.

Consider a trip to a city like Berlin and then travel from there to Munich,
with lots of travel in the city. Renting a Segway isn't adequate because you
commonly want to travel long distances. You also don't want to deal with
theft, break downs, weather patterns, etc.

Now consider your habits in your local city - travel is prohibitive based on
how far you can walk or with driving parking is commonly a problem.

Selling a bunch of expensive single person transportation units is solving the
wrong problem. Making great public transit for cities solves transportation
needs.

~~~
natrius
High quality public transportation plus bike sharing kiosks at every station
and spread around nearby (i.e. a bunch of _cheap_ single person transportation
units) seems like the perfect transportation solution to me. Bikes extend the
reach of the transit system by at least a mile, which would be a godsend given
the lack of transit-supportive density in most American cities.

~~~
jasonkester
Free Bikes are cool an all, but they tend to all get stolen in about a week.
Or better still, you end up with "Velib Extrem!":

[http://road.cc/content/news/2223-velib-extreme-hits-
parisian...](http://road.cc/content/news/2223-velib-extreme-hits-parisian-
bike-hire-scheme…-allegedly)

~~~
natrius
I meant paid bike sharing, like Velib. Despite JCDecaux's complaints, I think
they're still making money off of it. From what I've read, their losses on the
program are paid by the city after a certain point.

------
zach
My college friend worked on an electric skateboard that looked cool like that:

<http://frankschmitt.org/projects/powerboard>

It has strain gauges that let you control it by shifting your weight. Looks
cool yet there is no visible effort so it's a little surprising.

------
jbr
I'd like to respond to the last paragraph, which seems like the relevant point
for a startup audience.

"It was too easy for them; they were too successful raising money. If they'd
had to grow the company gradually, by iterating through several versions they
sold to real users, they'd have learned pretty quickly that people looked
stupid riding them."

This is less an issue of funding and more an issue of their belief that they
would make a "new cool"/"paradigm shift"/"disruptive tech." Although this
might often be correlated with funding, I think that's because funded
disruptive technologies are the ones that make waves (heh). Segway was a
company that had the balls to believe that cities would change shape for them;
it seems ludicrous to think that looking silly (now) would pose much of a
threat to their confidence, money or not.

So instead of pg's conclusion that it was the funding that inhibited them, I
suggest it's the very nature of disruptive technologies. Some of these fail
and we laugh about it; others actually change the fabric of modern life.

In fact, perhaps it's because they had such a big, outrageous dream that they
captured the public imagination (and possibly funding). Outrageous
propositions like "technology that changes the shape of industrialized cities"
are the sort of black-swan-esque gamble that VCs seem to adore. (Nicholas
Taleb's extremistan / pareto principle) Not to mention that it makes a great
story for the media.

------
zhyder
It isn't fair to compare people's reactions to a Segway/Segwell with their
reactions to the Eunicycle, because the latter still hasn't worn off its
novelty. People probably initially smiled when they saw the first Segways too.
Given enough time and hype, people will insult you on the Eunicycle the same
way.

------
olefoo
The riotwheel falls into the category of 'things that are technically similar
to a segway, but much cooler'.

<http://www.theriotwheel.com/Tech_BigBits.html>

Watch the videos, this is a self-balancing electric vehicle that would look at
home on the road chasing mad max.

------
e40
I dislike the Segway because they're dangerous to pedestrians on sidewalks. On
a sidewalk there are no rules. Want to toss your candy wrapper? Just head
straight for the trash can over there. There are no lanes, though people
generally keep to the right. Don't want to keep to the right? OK, walk on the
left. We pedestrians are conditioned to listen for possible collisions
(runners, faster walkers, bikes), but it's just not possible with the Segway.
It's too quiet. Several times I've been very startled by a Segway brushing
past me on the sidewalk, leaving feeling relieved that I didn't get hit. The
only good thing about them is there are so few out there, that it's not a
common problem. If there were a lot of them, there would be frequent
collisions with pedestrians.

------
raghus
_"Too lazy to walk, ya fuckin homo?"_ \- in downtown Mountain View? Wow.

The park next to where I live (next door Sunnyvale) occasionally has Segway
Polo matches. I wonder what folks will say to that.

------
jasonlbaptiste
The mall cops on segways with the helmets literally make me chuckle every time
I see them. I feel they are only able to stop crimes by making thieves laugh
endlessly.

------
Mz
For me, seeing a Segway always calls to mind the image of Martians in Bugs
Bunny cartoons: <http://www.guba.com/watch/2000901951>. I tend to assume that
is in the subconscious of a great many Americans and contributes to the fact
that we find them so laughable.

------
mattheww
At my university, the campus security used Segways. I imagine that they were
able to cover ground more easily than on foot and it was easier to stop and
talk to people than if they were on bicycles (referenced by another
commenter). The campus was small enough that there wasn't much road access
within.

They didn't look that dorky either, even with their helmets.

------
rjett
Contributing to the segway-smug/ridiculous factor is the fact that the segway
is parodied in so many movies and television shows, most notably with JP in
Grandma's Boy or in other movies like Paul Bart: Mall Cop. It's such an odd
looking mode of transportation that it's easy to use it as some ridiculous
prop.

------
kirubakaran
Considering the insult, may be the car driver is just a "flag waving, war
loving, homophobic, yellow-ribbon-on-gas-guzzling-SUV, 'patriot'" angry at
someone they consider to be a "latte sipping, tree hugging, segway riding,
book reading, weed smoking, 'unamerican' atheist elitist hippie".

------
rjurney
There is a market for the Segway, its just not the one they assumed it would
be. Thats very common. They assumed consumers would want one - in fact police
like them. Smaller market, raised too much money. Lesson there some place: ,
insufficient early customer contact.

------
cmars232
Smugness can be a factor, but there is this general goofiness about the
Segway. Whenever I see a Segway tour downtown (OMG its a Segway-gang! Run for
your lives!) or someone "walking" their dog with a Segway in my neighborhood,
I can't help but start snickering.

~~~
pyre
Walking your dog on a Segway sounds ultra dorky, but I've seen Segway tours go
by and they didn't look too dorky to me. Though I have a co-worker that uses a
combo of Segway and transit to commute; it looks a little dorky.

------
uuilly
dorkiness( helmet + segway ) == factorial( dorkiness( segway ) );

~~~
dhimes
Was going to downmod, but instead I'll reply: a friend of mind died riding a
scooter from one driveway to the next at very low speed. A helmet (we had
helmet laws) would have saved him. I'm trying to get my kids to understand
this when they ride their bikes.

Just sayin'...

------
kqr2
Well, people have modded their segways to suit their personal tastes:

<http://www.segwayjunkyard.com/customs.htm>

~~~
pyre
The Segways with the treaded 'off-road' wheels look so awkward as to be
laughable. I'm just picturing some guy with huge biceps and tattoos riding the
thing talking about how he goes 'off-roading' on his Segway. And it just makes
me chuckle.

------
messel
Would it be possible to have Paul's essays auto added here, and a link here
from the essay? Would mak it feel more like what it is, his comment section.

------
nsrivast
I think they just needed the right celebrity sponsor:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbRSQVsOX_Y>

------
bkovitz
Do people really yell insults at Segway riders?

~~~
potatolicious
I wouldn't know, but I thought it was ironic that people in _cars_ are yelling
at _Segway riders_ for being too lazy to walk. Pot, kettle.

~~~
tedunangst
Difference is people in cars are going places that are too far to walk. The
perception is that any place you'd go on a segway you'd be able to walk to as
well. For the hassle of parking and plugging it in, I'd certainly choose
walking over the segway.

~~~
potatolicious
Really? I frequently walk home from work - just over 2.5mi. If I wanted to get
all superior, I can proclaim that anyone driving for a trip less than 2 miles
is lazy, but who am I to judge?

"walking distance" varies for everyone, and I know _plenty_ of people who get
in cars to go to the corner store.

~~~
rythie
I occasionally drive that sort of short distance and it's usually because I
need/want to be there quickly or I have something heavy/bulky to carry.

------
jganetsk
July has been a prolific month for pg.

------
thunk
Hunting for a name to better capture this essence, I settled on: Mopodium.
Mopode for short.

------
herdrick
I think the bigger problem is that it looks like a minivan. Steve Jobs was
right - no sex.

------
beaker
This is my favorite pg essay of all time! Very true and very funny (in a dry
sort of way).

------
dmose
Cannondale bad boy > segway

------
TweedHeads
For $5000 I rather buy a Kawasaki Ninja 500R and look cool.

Even ATVs are cooler and there are some new models coming that look badass.

Now, if it was $900 like a mountain bike, I may give it a try.

------
indiejade
_Curiously enough, what got Segway into this problem was that the company was
itself a kind of Segway._

Don't you mean: "the company was itself a kind of _segue_ " ?

Weird word;

<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/segue>

~~~
indiejade
Can somebody please tell me why this was downmodded? I think inquiry regarding
natural language is pretty normal. I've waited patiently until this was off
the front page, so it's definitely not all about attention-seeking. I am truly
curious.

