
What the startup visa should really look like - elias
http://eliasbizannes.com/blog/2012/11/what-the-startup-visa-should-really-look-like/
======
marquis
What is so important to actually relocate to the U.S. rather than any other
country, or stay where you are? (if you are lucky to be somewhere that's safe
and respectful to your way of life). I travel to and partner with the U.S. as
a core part of my work but it's never been something I considered to actually
permanently move there - you can open a business and a bank account remotely,
run your S corp* etc. Is it because funding is hard to find, and harder to
find if you are not actually living in NYC or SF? Are there not easier
countries to move to, if you're looking to relocate for reasons other than
financial, and run your U.S based company remotely? I don't think that there
is any shortage of Comp Sci graduates anywhere in the OECD for those looking
to hire.

* edit (C corp or LLC)

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isalmon
You can't own an S corp unless you're a US resident (citizen or GC holder).

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hnwh
But you can own a C-Corp, which is what a venture-funded startup needs to be

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isalmon
Agreed, but not every single new business is focused on raising VC capital

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isalmon
Here's my story. I had H-1b for more than 3 years. I know for sure that I was
taking someone's job - there's no doubt about that. When I finally got my
green card - I quit the next day to start my own company. Now I create jobs.

So it took me 3 years until I could start creating jobs in the US. In my
opinion US government should provide incentives for the foreigners to CREATE
jobs, not TAKE them. Right now it's exactly the opposite.

This OP's point is I think the most important part of this blog post: "And
allow them to graduate into new visa's (like a greencard) once certain
milestones have been hit like revenue thresholds (tax paid) and employment
(aggregate demand in the economy increases)."

~~~
thinkisgood
The US does offer a program like this, which the author referred to, and is
the EB-5 program. It requires you to invest $1MM in the US and create 10 jobs
($500k and 10 jobs in economic development zones). You can go from a visa to a
green card within 3-4 years after proving your investment and the creating of
10 jobs.

~~~
eshvk
I just read up on this. It works if you have that much capital at the start
but what if you don't? What is the alternative for say people, who are fresh
out of school and have a bunch of ideas and might in 3-4 years time create
value and jobs worth that number or even twice it.

~~~
thinkisgood
Anyone can say they have an idea that will create 1,000 jobs in 3-4 years. How
do you pick the ones that actually will?

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isalmon
That's exactly my point. Give everybody a visa, but reward them with GC only
when they build a successful business. If they can't - they go home when the
visa expires.

~~~
refurb
But that's one of the big problems. USCIS has almost no ability to "send
people home" when their visa expires. The fact is, if you enter the US
(legally or not, it's pretty much impossible to make you leave).

That's why you see tourist visas denied for people who are coming from
developed countries and are visiting relatives. The immigration official knows
that one he lets you in, he has to count on the person's goodwill that they'll
leave.

~~~
eshvk
Can you explain a bit more on why it is hard to deport people? The way I
understood it the way illegal immigrants live in the country is because they
either use fake SSNs or no SSNs, no paper trails of any kind. I would imagine
that it would be very hard to live like that unless you are truly desperate.

~~~
refurb
You are right, it's not an easy life, but keep in mind there are an estimate
12 million illegal immigrants in the US at this point. I would assume most of
them are working cash-only jobs or have fake documents that nobody checks.

Could you live in the US illegally and be working at a Fortune 500 company?
Probably not. Could you come to the US and work at a mom and pop grocery
store? Probably.

And the USCIS has a minuscule enforcement arm. They prioritize criminals for
deportation. If you're a law abiding immigrant (excluding the immigration
violation), you are very low priority for deportation.

~~~
eshvk
> Could you live in the US illegally and be working at a Fortune 500 company?
> Probably not. Could you come to the US and work at a mom and pop grocery
> store? Probably.

I would think that this in itself coupled with the high time investment costs
of applying for such a startup visa (business plan, prototype etc) would self-
select a section of the population who will either succeed or self deport
(instead of screwing up their career and future potential by living
illegally).

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cletus
I'm glad the author mentioned the disparity between work visas and immigration
and visas for the "arts" (fashion models, actors, etc), which seem to be
trivial to get. I don't understand that at all.

I will say that the last thing a startup visa program needs is discretionary
government oversight. That has disaster written all over it.

My opinion is this: you should be able to come to the US and "pay your way".
By this I mean demonstrate that a) you can support yourself and b) you are
paying for things like health insurance. There probably needs to be a package
for (b) such that, from the perspective of the government, you aren't
"freeloading".

It should be up to each state to determine what that means. If you reside in
NYC perhaps you need $30,000 to support yourself. In Iowa? Maybe $10,000 will
do.

While residing in the US on such a visa you can't take a job (you need a visa
for that) but you can start a business. This is where it gets tricky because
you don't necessarily want to open the floodgates for people who are in de
facto employment through a small business.

The packaged health (and other) costs and keeping sufficient funds to support
yourself should ameliorate that possibility.

As long as people are willing to pay to reside in the US and work on their big
idea, why not let them?

At some point if your company gets funded or you have sufficient revenue
and/or employees, you can convert to the appropriate immigration status.

~~~
davidw
As long as people are willing to pay to reside in the US, why not let them?

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emmapersky
H-1B has no requirement that no US citizen can be found with the
qualifications. This is a common misconception. In fact, H-1B is fairly
trivial if you meet the criteria (degree or equivalent). This "no qualified US
citizen" requirement is associated with EB-2 and EB-3 PERM applications, which
is the first step to an employer sponsored green card process.

Also, It is not valid to start a business and pay yourself at least the
prevailing wage in order to sponsor an H-1B. In fact, if you are in the
ownership chain of a company you more or less can't have it apply for an H-1B
on your behalf. There are other routes if you are making serious money though.

~~~
HistoryInAction
I believe that while this is technically correct, the labor certification that
is needed to go through the H1-B process does require a "no qualified US
citizen" proof. However, I'm told that's also fairly trivial to surmount,
which is the cause of a lot of angst in the anti-immigration (anti-H1B
subgroup) community.

~~~
potatolicious
The H1B is just a work visa - it does not require a labor certification at
all.

Turning a H1B into a green card is the process that involves the labor cert.

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HistoryInAction
Admitting my own lack of personal experience, I apparently mixed up labor
certification with the labor condition application (LCA). Wikipedia:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Labor_Condition_Appli...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Labor_Condition_Application)

The U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) is responsible for ensuring that foreign
workers do not displace or adversely affect wages or working conditions of US
workers. For every H-1B petition filed with the USCIS, there must be included
a Labor Condition Application (LCA) (not to be confused with the labor
certification), certified by the U.S. Department of Labor. The LCA is designed
to ensure that the wage offered to the non-immigrant worker meets or exceeds
the "prevailing wage" in the area of employment. ("Immigration law has a
number of highly technical terms that may not mean the same thing to the
average reader." [32] last updated 2011 March 31, visited 2012 November 5) The
LCA also contains an attestation section designed to prevent the program from
being used to import foreign workers to break a strike or replace US citizen
workers.

While an employer is not required to advertise the position before hiring an
H-1B non-immigrant pursuant to the H-1B visa approval, the employer must
notify the employee representative about the Labor Condition Application
(LCA)—or if there is no such representation, the employer must publish the LCA
at the workplace and the employer's office.[33][34] Under the regulations,
LCAs are a matter of public record. Corporations hiring H-1B workers are
required to make these records available to any member of the public who
requests to look at them. Copies of the relevant records are also available
from various web sites, including the Department of Labor.

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SwaroopH
EIR[1] has worked on a temporary solution to resolve this by re-interpreting
the laws for L and O making it more startup friendly. This was further
confirmed by Doug Rand (from whitehouse) at GAN[2] conference but no ETA on
formalization.

[1]. <http://www.uscis.gov/eir> [2]. <http://gan.co/>

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HistoryInAction
Right, EIR program has been dark since their cancellation of the July webcast
of the GA Tech event that was supposed to be the wrap up of their first 90
days.

Anyone hear anything from them since then?

~~~
SwaroopH
I got the details from Paul Ford, he is one of my mentors and is on the panel.
Also, Doug Rand confirmed this at the GAN conference.

~~~
HistoryInAction
Paul's good people, likewise Doug. I heard Lisa Atkins on a panel say that L
and O reinterpretations to be more startup-friendly were coming, but I haven't
seen anything concrete or public—and that was at the July conference at the
Institute for Peace in DC. When was the GAN conference?

Can you point me to anything?

~~~
SwaroopH
Nothing concrete, all this was verbal. The whole idea is about allowing L for
small companies like startups. And O for startup founders who have gone
through accelerator programs since that's an "extra-ordinary" ability. I am
crossing my fingers for O since that's where I fit in.

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thinkisgood
I'm all for opening up the US and allowing more immigrants in. With the
author's solution, who determines what is and what is not a start up? If I
start a restaurant, am I not a start up? What if I start a cleaning service, a
landscaping company, etc?

~~~
eshvk
I am confused: Is there a reason why those _shouldn't_ be startups? If there
is a reasonably baseline of jobs, $J being created in a certain reasonably
timeframe, $T, with a certain amount of equity, $D being generated. Why should
the U.S. government have an issue with how cool or fancy your startup is?

~~~
thinkisgood
They should be. The problem is that there are very little barriers to entry to
these start ups and as such, pretty much anyone can start one and have a visa.

The problem with setting benchmarks are where do you set them? There is
already a program know as the EB-5 program that requires you to invest $1MM
($500k in economic development zones) and create 10 jobs and after 3-4 years
you can get a green card.

~~~
eshvk
I don't have a say in this matter but wouldn't this be a possible solution to
the illegal immigrant issue? If they are in the process of creating jobs for
U.S. citizens or allege that they can, give them a visa or "legalize them". If
at any time they become a public charge or it turns out that they have not
achieved their objectives within the reasonable time frame given, revoke the
visa? Presumably this can be a one time thing only.

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patio11
_Did you know a fashion model can easily get a O1 if she has appeared in a few
print magazines, but an entrepreneur has to basically have won a noble prize?
I could write a book about the issues each of the above visa’s have, but I
want to keep this post light as it’s a complicated subject._

Let me quote from the regulations. You need either a Nobel Prize _or_ any
three of the following:

 _Receipt of nationally or internationally recognized prizes or awards for
excellence in the field of endeavor

Membership in associations in the field for which classification is sought
which require outstanding achievements, as judged by recognized national or
international experts in the field

Published material in professional or major trade publications, newspapers or
other major media about the beneficiary and the beneficiary’s work in the
field for which classification is sought

Original scientific, scholarly, or business-related contributions of major
significance in the field

Authorship of scholarly articles in professional journals or other major media
in the field for which classification is sought

A high salary or other remuneration for services as evidenced by contracts or
other reliable evidence

Participation on a panel, or individually, as a judge of the work of others in
the same or in a field of specialization allied to that field for which
classification is sought

Employment in a critical or essential capacity for organizations and
establishments that have a distinguished reputation_

Now comes the hacking bit: can you map any three of those broadly written
requirements to three specific achievements a 23 year old programmer could
have within two months of setting out to have them? Empirically, more than a
few people can. (I'm constrained about what I can tell you about individual
folks.)

e.g. While I'm an American citizen and thus wouldn't have to worry about it
(the relevant criteria for my Japanese visa are, obviously, different), I
could present a fairly strong case for an O1 visa on the basis of:

1) I have been published in a major CS journal. (ACM reprinted a blog post of
mine. Totally counts. I'm pretty sure you can make "Guest posted for Smashing
Magazine" into one of your three points, if that seems unlikely.)

2) My salary is high (i.e. "at least as high as a starting grad at Google"),
as evidenced by copious paper I could produce on that topic. Not a high bar
for any engineer to hit.

3) I judged a hackathon once ("participated on a panel as the judge of work of
others..."). ( _So_ not kidding. Bureaucracies are state machines. You give
them _exactly_ what they ask for and get the published transition.)

etc, etc, etc

~~~
OzzyOsbourne
I want to believe this and internalise it, and make it my road map. I intend
on getting a 4-year degree as well as a master's degree.

Do you have any evidence on the state machine-ness of bureaucracies?
Anecdotes? How can you substantiate your opinion and example?

~~~
loumf
No one can guarantee anything for you. Achieving 3 of the above criteria will
not hurt you and are quite easy to achieve. They will also help you in other
ways.

Worry about being great -- (Steve Martin quote is relevant here: "be so good
they can't ignore you")

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psycho
Another idea could be giving visas for people who are accepted by accredited
accelerators. If PG, for example, believes in someone's ability to make a
business why should government officials worry? (that's similar to the
original Startup Visa idea but with another investor qualification mechanism
and without 100 000 dollars barrier)

~~~
elias
That's what the startup visa in it current advocacy states: if an entrepreneur
has raised 250k then so be it.

So yes, valid idea. But again, not what I' saying: if I want to start a
business, it should not be a requirement that I have to raise money or go into
an incubator. Those are factors that should accelerate an application, not
determine it.

~~~
psycho
Being foreign tech enterpreneur myself, I think your idea is the most legit.
But that is why it seems harder for it to be brought into life, unfortunately.

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photorized
EB-5 also allows for $500,000 investment instead of $1 million, if the
business being funded is in a high unemployment area.

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oscarhong
I'm wondering what would the differences in terms of difficulty between
getting citizenship by finding a start up and getting a green card by working
for Microsoft be.

