
Garry Kasparov Arrested By Russian Police  - neya
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20120817/175282580.html
======
mladenkovacevic
"Breaking news! Corruption and totalitarianism of the Russian government, KGB
and orthodox church exposed by the unimaginable injustice dealt to the members
of the Pussy Riot and undisputed chess champion Gary Kasparov"

Anyways, here's what I was motivated to write in an earlier post on this
topic:

Why isn't Madonna or these other outraged people protesting over the 32 miners
killed in South Africa? I understand 3 years (or is it 2?) is a tough
punishment for what is basically vandalism by western standards (although I'm
sure we can find examples or worse injustices in any of the western judicial
systems). The organized and overblown reaction to all of this is much more
about ruining Russia's reputation as a democratic nation than anything else.
I've actually heard the nightly news-anchor here in Canada report on
"International condemnation" of the sentencing. Are you fucking kidding me?
Miners being gunned down for protesting in South Africa, Omahr Khadr still
sitting in Guantanamo for something he might've been involved when he was 16,
all the Wikileaks shit from Iraq Afghanistan... and the Pussy Riot going for a
2 year stint for vandalism is causing "international condemnation"?! If
anything's made me aware of how alive the cold war is, this is it.

Also this: I don't want to be misunderstood.. I'm in favour of Kasparov and
the Pussy Riot doing what they're doing and fighting for a better government
in Russia... as anyone should be doing for their country! But I am just
irritated by the "better than thou" indignations echoed in media channels of
the equally unjust western world that tends to ignore massive wrongdoings that
are too inconvenient to the larger narrative.

~~~
smsm42
I don't get it. Each time somebody protests some injustice or evil happening
somewhere, some people couldn't find anything better to do but chime in with
"why you protest X but not Y? if you don't protest every single injustice I
want you to protest, you must be a hypocrite!" Come on people, how it even
makes sense to you? Who on earth could live up to this impossible standard of
protesting every single injustice?

It makes it only worse that your other demands of condemnations are full of
factual inaccuracies - Omahr Khadr is sitting in Gitmo not for "something he
might've been involved" but for, among other terrorist activities, murdering
an American - Sergeant Christopher James Speer, to which he admitted and plead
guilty. Pussy Riot had nothing to do with vandalism and weren't accused of
vandalism. Western world is not "equally unjust" as nobody is imprisoned for 2
years for protesting the head of state. The press is not "ignoring" any of the
issues you raised - Wikileaks revelations, Gitmo prisoners and other events
are extensively discussed in the press and nobody is being imprisoned for
doing so.

~~~
emilis_info
It is a classical Russian propaganda defense: answer an accusation on human
rights violations with "and you are lynching Negroes" or similar.

See: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes> ,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque>

Kremlin is paying bloggers and commenters in Russia to post positive things
about authorities:

[http://globalvoicesonline.org/2010/06/10/russia-networks-
of-...](http://globalvoicesonline.org/2010/06/10/russia-networks-of-paid-
bloggers-exposed/) , [http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/07/hacked-
emails-na...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/07/hacked-emails-nashi-
putin-bloggers)

Russian authorities may also be paying or employing some users of HN.

That's how I get it. I was expecting to find the "lynching Negroes" comment
upvoted high by just seeing the title. It does not mean that the user who
posted it is employed by Kremlin, but you know, the message will be upvoted...

~~~
mladenkovacevic
Ah busted! I'll have to go report to Putin that my cover has been compromised.

Not that I have to validate my objectivity to you, but I am typing this from a
comfortable home in Toronto, Ontario and my paycheques are signed by a B2B
publisher for my services rendered as a marketing specialist. It must be too
shocking for you to accept that someone might actually have an opinion that
doesn't perfectly align with the western media narrative.

~~~
lolcraft
Complaining that most people find interesting something that you see as banal,
and demanding they protest what _you_ deem significant is not having a
contrarian opinion. It's just being innapropiate to this conversation. Posting
about the Marinaka Mine Massacre on HN would be more constructive.

Now, blaming all of this on the "western media narrative", a mindset relic of
the hawkest hawks of the Cold War, who exaggerate a simple incident of
"vandalism" in order to discredit the democratic government of Putin... Yeah,
that's a contrarian opinion. Which just happens to be false. Western media
simply does not give that much of a fuck now about Rusia. Past protests in
Russia about the legitimacy of the elections? Here covered, at most, in
passing. The law banning reunions? Don't care. The Pussy Riot incident? It's
only on HN's front page because Kasparov was arrested.

~~~
mladenkovacevic
I am not demanding that anyone find my observations important or central to
the discussion of the pussy riot events. If you want to express condemnation
of the sentence or the Russian government in general there are plenty of
places for you to do so (including in this HN thread). It just so happens that
my post reached enough upvotes that it made it to the top of this thread
(democracy and free speech at work, ironically) so it must be something that
HN is interested in as well.

You replying to me by telling me that my opinion is inappropriate to the
conversation (which I started by the way... there are other conversations
below you can express your approval of) is an attempt to censor me. Calling my
thought process a relic of the cold war is either an intentional distraction
or just naivete on your part.

If you disagree with my opinion about the double standards with which western
media handles events from countries whose regimes it approves of and those
that it doesn't that's completely fine. But I'd like you to consider a
hypothetical incident which I've mentioned below: a few guys walk into a
Manhattan synagogue, put Balaklavas over their heads and scream out
profanities against Israel and capitalism. Would you really be as outraged if
they were carted off to jail and put on some terrorist watch-list.

------
sethbannon
The tactics of the Putin regime are getting more concerning every day. In case
anyone is curious, here's the backstory on the protest Kasparov was attending
at the time: [http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/aug/17/pussy-riot-
sente...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/aug/17/pussy-riot-sentenced-
prison-putin)

[EDIT] Here's a link to the BBC for background, for those that don't like the
Guardian: <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19302986>

~~~
old-gregg
Quite amusing to see the word "regime" used so casually and self-righteously.
As much as you may dislike Putin, I bet he's got more popular votes than Obama
did, just visit an average Russian town 50 miles outside of Moscow and ask
around.

As a Russian I know first hand things aren't rosy, but they aren't so
simplistic and cartoonishly evil as western media and comments on HN portray.

~~~
ak217
As a Russian, I think you're full of shit. It's not about the votes
(officially, Putin got 46 million votes; Obama got 69 million). It's about the
harassment, media manipulation, gutting of the judiciary, vote rigging, and
now, terror.

In the long run, the terror may be something of a good thing: it may hasten
Putin's demise. In the short run, he has squandered the last of the
opportunities that the Soviet industrial and technological base had given him.

And it's not that he always was evil: until 2002, he legitimately did a good
job of strengthening the state when it was weak and reeling from Chechnya. But
then he never stopped.

~~~
beambot
_It's about the harassment, media manipulation, gutting of the judiciary, vote
rigging, and now, terror._

I seriously couldn't tell: are you talking about Russia or the US here...?

~~~
beambot
Not sure about the downvotes... But my point stands: As an American, these
seem to be common political tactics here too. If GP doesn't want to compare
Putin and Obama on votes, I'd appreciate a point-by-point breakdown along
these axes.

~~~
justin66
This is a puzzling comment which makes me wonder about your perception of both
the US and Russia.

Can you really imagine a punk rock band in the US getting two years in prison
(a felony in any state in the US) for a stunt like Pussy Riot pulled,
involving absolutely no property damage or physical harm? Or journalists
critical of the regime being assassinated pretty frequently (with little hope
of those murders ever being solved)? Or gay protesters being beaten in the
streets?

Where are you living in the US that the exercise of government power seems
somehow similar to all that?

------
Steko
Garry was famously beaten by another machine in 1997.

The most intriguing part of this affair to me has been the revelations of the
patriarchy as basically tools of the KGB and now Putin. The airbrushed out
$30K watch that bloggers found the reflection of. Wild stuff. Not that we
don't have our share of corrupt clergy in the US but that the story we've
always been told was of how the Russian church was oppressed and quietly
waited out the evil Socialist overlords.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_of_Kirill_I_of_Mo...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_of_Kirill_I_of_Moscow)

his predecessor:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Alexy_II_of_Moscow#Al...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Alexy_II_of_Moscow#Alleged_work_for_the_KGB)

~~~
zalew
influential people get corrupted, film at eleven.

------
1gor
Kasparov is a totally manufactured 'Russian opposition' figure.

As late as 2004 he was a member of a US "Security Advisory Council" (NSAC). It
was funny to see Kasparov's name on the website under the slogan: "Advisory
Council members have dedicated their careers to American security", right next
to assistant Secretary of Defence
[http://img717.imageshack.us.nyud.net/img717/1337/kasparov.jp...](http://img717.imageshack.us.nyud.net/img717/1337/kasparov.jpg)

I respect his anti-Putin views, and his chess achievements, but how exactly
can he make a political career in Russia with such a background?

His current role is to get beaten occasionally by the police and to remind
Western audience that Russian president is evil.

~~~
ianb
> His current role is to get beaten occasionally by the police and to remind
> Western audience that Russian president is evil.

Maybe so. I for one have been reminded that the Russian president is evil.

------
lobotryas
Karsparov has a history of staging or attending protests and getting arrested.
After his chess career ended he has been trying to reinvent himself as a
"people's champion" and "pro-democracy" leader. So far this has mostly
amounted to him getting marginalized and beaten up by police.

~~~
skylan_q
That's because his only support is outside of Russia. He's just a nuisance at
most.

~~~
civilunrest
Is your paycheck issued by the Russian government?

~~~
Ingaz
That's truth. In Russia we do not have normal opposition.

Nemtsov - unpopular because of his past, Limonov - too radical, Kasparov - is
just a clown.

------
1gor
One fragment from a BBC documentary by Adam Curtis explains rather well the
mechanics of current Russian pro-democracy campaign in the Western media.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=26Ir2xhL_po#t=9s)

The video deals with PR guru Edward Bernays work for his client, a United
Fruit Company (UFCO). When a newly elected Guatemala president Jacobo Árbenz
threatened to nationalize UFCO's plantations, Bernays engineered a campaign to
turn the popularly elected president doing hugely popular things for his
people, into a threat to democratic values and a communist with links to
Moscow.

In reality, Arbenz was no communist and no dictator, as the documentary points
out. But Bernays has set up a shell American press agency which bombarded US
media with reports about alleged freedom violations in Guatemala. Bernays has
also apparently organised a few violent anti-US actions in Guatemala to
support his thesis.

As a result, president Arbenz was ousted in a coup and replaced with a proper
dictator, which was generally viewed as a good thing by the freedom-loving
public in the US. Interestingly, the whole time the United Fruit Company has
been kept out of the picture, even through it was paying for the campaign.

The whole BBC documentary <http://centuryself.blogspot.com/> is quite
interesting.

~~~
smsm42
So you're saying Western media invented the 2 year sentence and in fact
nothing like that happened? There are no freedom violations in Russia and only
reason why such reports appear is because some corporations want to take over
Russia? Or what that Guatemala example has to do with Russia and Putin?

~~~
1gor
Pussy Riot performance looks like a planned provocation.

There are many ways to get yourself arrested, if you really want to. In
Europe, you can get jail for hate speech, for example, (though not in the US,
where it is constitutionally protected)
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech>

Don't forget, Pussy Riot have been jailed not for singing an anti-Putin song,
but for inciting religious hatred. They were screaming profanities in the
cathedral. (They didn't sing in the church, had no time, they were removed
after 40s, the song about Putin was added later to their YouTube video).

~~~
smsm42
Please do not bullshit me. They were jailed for singling anti-Putin and anti-
Church song, and everybody knows that. The official charge was "inciting
religious hatred", but nobody in his sane mind can see any trace of religious
hatred anywhere near there, they did not try to incite any religious hatred,
did not incite any religious hatred and nobody ever believed they tried to
incite any religious hatred.

Of course they had it planned, and of course it was a "provocation". In sane
countries, such "provocations" - public performances aimed at focusing public
attention on important public issues - are called demonstrations, and it is a
regular part of public discourse. Rosa Park's actions were "planned
provocation". Martin Luther King made "planned provocations". People that went
to the Red Square in 1968 to protest Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia made a
"planned provocation".
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Red_Square_demonstration>

Since the official Church in Russia is not only completely united with the
state, despite formal separation of church and state, but also enjoys multiple
benefits of such arrangement, both pecuniary and otherwise, it also is a
legitimate target for protest.

As for "screaming profanities in the cathedral" - this is factually incorrect,
they did not. But even if they did, it is not a criminal offense - causing
somebody a mild butthurt is not a crime warranting imprisonment.

Your comment of "there are many ways to get yourself arrested" is classical
case of blaming the victim - if they just would shut up and gave up their
rights and freedoms as other good boys and girls did, nothing would happen.
Probably so. But some people are not OK with their freedoms taken away. Some
protest. Putting a blame on them for "provoking" oh so innocent regime into
locking them up for 2 years is disingenuous at best.

~~~
1gor

      "screaming profanities in the cathedral" - this is 
      factually incorrect, they did not.
    

BBC thinks otherwise, reporting on "Their brief, obscenity-laced performance"
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19297373>

Listen, I am actually against hate speech laws everywhere, including Europe,
and I believe the church has no place in the modern state.

But I fail to see any Putin connection in Pussy Riot arrest and their jail
time. Pussy Riot got jailed for hate speech. That's a fact. Any Putin
association is a result of a well executed PR campaign. Everybody knows
that... ))

~~~
im3w1l
>Everybody knows that.

I don't think they do.

------
jakeonthemove
I know a lot of people believe Putin saved Russia, but I gotta say, having the
same people in power for too long is never a good thing: they get comfortable,
they lose their focus, things get stagnant and everything goes downhill from
there.

There's a reason why the US does not allow the same person to be president
more than twice in their life (although that doesn't stop them from putting
someone they trust in power).

~~~
skylan_q
Would you have someone with a vested interest in the country running it, or
someone who gets elected, steals from the country and runs off without
consequence after 8 years? ;)

~~~
jarek
Is there any particular reason you believe Russia is unable to elect someone
who doesn't steal from the country and is also not a borderline autocrat? I
know the track record isn't great, but I'm curious if you reckon that's
inherent.

~~~
skylan_q
Seems like it's inherent to me, and I really can't describe why. It just seems
that in terms of internal politics, Russia has always been very dark and
bleak. :(

------
_delirium
Kasparov's political role is interesting. He's been a thorn in the regime's
side for some years now, but has only been moderately harassed. Not entirely
sure why; perhaps the cost/benefit analysis of how much they fear him
(probably not greatly) versus how much negative PR they get from going after
him.

~~~
waterlesscloud
What's Kasparov's status like with the people? Is he a kind of star or folk
hero from the old chess days? Or has he been marginalized?

~~~
prostoalex
[http://www.amazon.com/The-Man-Without-Face-
Unlikely/dp/15944...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Man-Without-Face-
Unlikely/dp/1594488428) discusses it in great length.

Whenever he shows up, the venues seem to be either cancelled outright or
suffer from all sorts of electrical and infrastructure problems all of a
sudden. Couple of times he chose to take his message to the people outside the
closed venue, he was egged, with police preventing his followers from chasing
the perpetrators. Of course, those are also the images that TV stations choose
display whenever mentioning Kasparov in passing.

When you control the media, it's easy to hand-pick quotes and stock photos to
portray even the most eloquent and intellectual speaker as crazy bum who's
shouting in public places to gain self-promotion.

~~~
im3w1l
What about his internet presence?

------
wyclif
Here in the US, the mainstream media has been showing clips of the protests,
including footage of Kasporov being arrested, but not identifying him. I had
to do a double-take (I used to play chess a lot). I was 99.9% sure it was him.
I hope he is treated humanely by the police.

~~~
eatitraw
> I hope he is treated humanely by the police. Russian police can be very
> brutal, here is the video of Kasparov being arrested:
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf55YyMC6qk> He is put into police bus, and
> then you can hear him screaming: "What are you doing?!" and "Aaaay"(not sure
> if it is transliterated correctly).

I've read some blog post(from an activist who was in the same bus) pointing
that he was actually beaten.

------
shardling
There's an awful lot of throwaway comments claiming that Kasparov is given
undue coverage by the western media.

Linking to some sort of actual analysis of this might be interesting;
littering the threads with multiple repetitions of this as a fact is not.

~~~
moo
here is a Reuter's quote: "Kasparov and his Other Russia dissident movement
are not standing in Sunday's parliamentary election because they could not get
registered as a party. They enjoy little public support among Russians but
have a big following in the West." Taken from:
[http://in.reuters.com/article/2007/12/02/idINIndia-307909200...](http://in.reuters.com/article/2007/12/02/idINIndia-30790920071202)

By MIKE WHITNEY:

"And a final word on Garry Kasparov

On Sunday, while Putin's party "United Russia" was screeching to a landslide
victory, Reuters News was busy taking mug-shots of the stony-faced Kasparov
holding up Florida-style ballots claiming the voting was rigged. "They are not
just rigging the vote," Kasparov moaned, "They are raping the whole electoral
system. These elections are a reminder of Soviet elections when there was no
choice.....Putin is going to have a hard time trying to rule like Stalin."

Stalin? So now Putin is Stalin? First of all, when did Reuters begin to take
such a keen interest in voting irregularities? It must be a recent
development, becuase they were nowhere to be found in the 2000 presidential
election. And when did they start to pay attention to "political dissent"?
They certainly never wasted any video-footage on the antiwar rallies in the
US. Are we to believe that they are more interested in democracy in Russia
than America?

And why is Reuters so eager to provide valuable column-space to a washed-up
chessmaster who's only interested in making a nuisance of himself by
bellyaching about voter fraud? That's not news; it's propaganda." From article
dated December 05, 2007 Why the Council on Foreign Relations Hates Putin Why
Murdoch’s Journal Loves Kasparov

------
rglover
Humanity is truly lost when a band named _Pussy Riot_ can upset an entire
government.

------
anovikov
This is in fact good news. Things like that keeps Russia repelling talented
people. It will ensure divestment of Russia of talent, and generation ahead it
will be like big North Korea - country of destitute, drunk peasants - rather
than like Iran - well-educated, agressive and strong. At least it will be safe
for the outside world.

~~~
solnyshok
some startup's recrutiment bus with a 'Go work in sunny and democratic
California' slogan, would have looked interesting nearby Khamovnichesky court

------
misobolev
it is hard to see the truth if you grew up in the Western world and take a lot
of freedoms for granted. What the "sipping cappuccino in the safety of
Starbucks" crowd(i.e. most of you) fails to see is that the trial and
sentencing is not about the girls or what they did or how the same act
would've been treated elsewhere. It was about showing that in this land of
arrogant and righteous thieves any hope for fair justice is lost.

------
xentronium
I am surprised by the fact that there were no news about Pussy Riot getting
jail time for dancing in balaclavas in the church, Quinisext Council (692
A.D.) being cited in court in 2012, but instead there is an article about
Kasparov arrested by police. Oh wow. Don't worry about the guy, he'll be
released in 15 days tops.

Not that I think that any of this should be on HN front page.

------
jaekwon
Kasparov made a gambit, and finally Russia has bitten. Next move is
Kasparov's.

------
jongleur
How hard is it to verify a brutal beating? Bruises at least, right?

------
daniel-cussen
TIL naming your band Pussy Riot can keep you out of jail.

~~~
xentronium
Did you mean the other way round? They got jail time.

------
batista
> _"Breaking news! Corruption and totalitarianism of the Russian government,
> KGB and orthodox church exposed by the unimaginable injustice dealt to the
> members of the Pussy Riot and undisputed chess champion Gary Kasparov"_

How about: undisputed chess champion Gary Kasparov also double-times as a
champion of a certain western power's interests in Russia and goes around
challenging the democratically elected government that has a huge popular vote
behind it?

The same western powers that want some idiot controllable puppet running
Russia, and pretend that their issue is with Putin's "cronyism" and
"corruption" (because, stuff like multi-billion war contracts to friends under
Bush, or the trillion dollar financial firm bailout, or all the laws passed in
favor of this or that lobby, are not cronyism/corruption).

Strange how little the same western powers and their mass media protest the
Assange situation.

