
Misophonia: Scientists crack why eating sounds can make people angry - daegloe
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-38842561
======
brockf
How is this an "explanation" or "cracking" the problem? They showed that an
emotional response was correlated with neural behavior... what else could it
have been?

More broadly, it's frustrating that neuroscientists reframe genuinely
interesting questions ("Why do I get angry when people eat apples beside me?")
into boring questions ("What does my brain look like when I'm angry about
someone eating an apple?").

~~~
sampo
> _How is this an "explanation" or "cracking" the problem? They showed that an
> emotional response was correlated with neural behavior... what else could it
> have been?_

There are Facebook support groups, and a subreddit, for people suffering form
this disorder, and it's not uncommon that family members, spouses and friends
think they are just being obnoxious, and advise them to "just shrug it off".

If it's a measurable neurophysiological condition, this gives some support
that those people just cannot shrug it off, whatever they try. It can also
help the sufferers to know that they are not being just crazy, but something
really is different in the way their brain is wired.

~~~
brockf
To your first point, I'm not sure how this helps the sufferers. What they have
shown is that there is a different neural signature correlating with a
different emotional response. There's no causal link here, meaning that I
might _still_ tell someone to just shrug it off. Maybe they can control their
neural activity, just like I can control my neural activity related to
thinking about elephants by not thinking about elephants.

To your second point, I would offer two responses. First, while being able to
measure something is a win in itself, we need to be clear about what they're
measuring. They have shown that suffering ailment X increases the probability
that they find neural signature X. They do not know the reverse, meaning this
isn't going to unlock early diagnostics or anything. It is unclear how
discriminating this response is. Second, it's not clear that this is the
product/effect of the way their "brain is wired". Perhaps changes in neural
activity caused the observations of different neural connectivity. Perhaps
some other factor of their experience or biology caused this sensitivity and
the visible differences in connectivity, neural activity, etc. We just don't
know.

(P.S. Listening to people eat drives me insane. I'm not going to self-
diagnose, but I just want to be clear that I'm not criticizing the
finding/report because of a lack of empathy for the sufferers.)

(P.P.S. I'm a recovering cognitive scientist who had to hear about a lot of
neuropsych findings that all boiled down to, "This part of the brain lights up
when we hear/see/do this! Give me another $5mm grant!").

~~~
wallace_f
>To your first point, I'm not sure how this helps the sufferers. What they
have shown is that there is a different neural signature correlating with a
different emotional response. There's no causal link here, meaning that I
might still tell someone to just shrug it off. Maybe they can control their
neural activity, just like I can control my neural activity related to
thinking about elephants by not thinking about elephants.

>To your second point, I would offer two responses. First, while being able to
measure something is a win in itself, we need to be clear about what they're
measuring. They have shown that suffering ailment X increases the probability
that they find neural signature X. They do not know the reverse, meaning this
isn't going to unlock early diagnostics or anything. It is unclear how
discriminating this response is. Second, it's not clear that this is the
product/effect of the way their "brain is wired". Perhaps changes in neural
activity caused the observations of different neural connectivity. __Perhaps
some other factor of their experience or biology caused this sensitivity and
the visible differences in connectivity, neural activity, etc. We just don 't
know. __

That 's a very good point, to expand, it appears the implicit conclusion at
the intersection of biology and psychology that sufferers 'have a genetic
predisposition to be upset' might possibly be taken as sufferers 'have an
inherited _right_ to be upset,' which is something I've been seeing more of in
the world, and something that I am reading between the lines in the article--
and even in the diagnoses itself, Misophonia.

We know no one is perfect, and most of us are far from it, but are we headed
to a future where we are all walking baskets of 'scientifically-diagnosed'
defects that we must tolerate (that we really don't fully understand if we're
honest about it--the brain is still, for the most part, an unsolved mystery)?
I think it's important to be respectfully tolerant of genetic defects, i.e.
mistreating a deaf person would _really_ upset me, because we know a deaf
person cannot 'get over it;' but can we really know the same about the
plethora of new neurological conditions such as this one? It's possible there
might be something about scientific journalism that is selling itself for more
than its worth here, but maybe that's not true, it just doesn't appear there
is enough to know right now but I see that admission nowhere in these kind of
articles.

~~~
sampo
> _I think it 's important to be respectfully tolerant of genetic defects,
> i.e. mistreating a deaf person would really upset me, because we know a deaf
> person cannot 'get over it_

There have been attempts, though, to make deaf people "get over it" by trying
to teach them lip reading, and speaking word even though they cannot hear
themselves what they are saying. They have not been very successful.

"In 1980, a vocational school for deaf adolescents was opened in the area of
Managua called Villa Libertad. By 1983 there were over 400 deaf students
enrolled in the two schools. Initially, the language program emphasized spoken
Spanish and lipreading, and the use of signs by teachers was limited to
fingerspelling (using simple signs to sign the alphabet)."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaraguan_Sign_Language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaraguan_Sign_Language)

~~~
michaelmrose
Since only a small fraction of people are unable to hear at all to the point
where ASL not a hearing aid would be beneficial wouldn't it be easier and more
practical to teach them both ASL and lip reading and speaking to the degree
that is feasible.

In theory it would be fantastic to get the 95% to all learn ASL to better
communicate it doesn't seem likely to happen. ASL for example isn't on my
personal to do list not because I don't care but because I have other things
higher on the list.

------
atombender
As a self-diagnosed misophonic, working in an open office has always been a
struggle. A great pair of noise-canceling earbuds is an absolute must (the
Bose QC20 are fantastic).

I wonder if misophonia is correlated with awareness. I'm maddeningly
hyperaware of my surroundings, and have difficulty getting into "the zone" if
there's too much auditory and visual stimuli. For example, if someone is
talking in the same room, it's almost impossible for me _not_ to follow what
that person is saying; I can't tune it out unless there's something else that
drowns it out. (Radios are incredibly annoying for the same reason. I can't
sleep if I can hear people talking in another room; even music with vocals
have the same effect.)

Being hyperaware has its benefits, of course, but it's mostly a curse.

~~~
grahamburger
I see this recommendation often (using noise-cancelling headphones in an open-
office) but I'm confused by it.

The headphones will actively remove (a little bit of) white noise from your
environment (air conditioners, server fans, etc) which in practice actually
makes 'signal' type noises _more_ audible. I've noticed, for example, that I
can hear the flight attendants on the intercom much better with my noise
cancelling headphones on than without because the noise from the engine is
partially cancelled.

I can see how heavy over-the-ear headphones would help in that they will
dampen all noise, especially if you add in some white noise on top of that.

~~~
iak8god
> I see this recommendation often (using noise-cancelling headphones in an
> open-office) but I'm confused by it.

Me too, and I hope someone will chime in and mention a variety of noise
canceling headphones that block out voices. I'm in an open office space for
the first time in a while, and finding it extremely stressful and distracting
to hear other people talking constantly when I'm trying to focus.

~~~
ryanlol
Look into proper IEMs, they're generally made for wearing on stage and tend to
do a great job blocking out external noises.

I've got Shure SE535s for flying, they do a better job passively cancelling
noise than any active "noise cancelling" headphones I've ever tried.

~~~
iak8god
Do you have any experience with/thoughts on the SE215-K? The SE535s are a bit
out of my "give it a try" budget range.

~~~
ryanlol
Not really, but they appear pretty similar to mine (perhaps you even get the
same tips?) and other people seem to be very satisfied with the isolation
[http://www.head-fi.org/products/shure-se215](http://www.head-
fi.org/products/shure-se215)

------
wrp
I suggest we take the discussion of _misphonia_ with a grain of salt.

It seems to be ignoring the very large cultural factor. As an American who has
lived around Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, I've observed a great
variation in what counts as acceptable table manners. East Asian culture in
particular seems to accept a lot more chomping and smacking at the table, and
this seems to be a general complaint among Westerners, not just a few
individuals.

Secondly, as with anything else psychological, there will be individual
variation. I feel there is too much eagerness to isolate some end of a
continuum and label it as a syndrome. For example, I've always found notable
the fact that some people can't comprehend why neighbors would be bothered by
a loud stereo and others can't comprehend how anyone could not be bothered.
Though there is a significant psychological variation there, I would not label
either group as suffering from a _syndrome_.

As for dealing with irritating background sounds, in addition to white noise,
I've found earplugs very helpful in some situations. The best ones I know of
are Hearos Xtreme Protection.

[https://www.amazon.com/Hearos-Plugs-Xtreme-Protection-
pairs/...](https://www.amazon.com/Hearos-Plugs-Xtreme-Protection-
pairs/dp/B001EPQ86A)

~~~
Lukman
The attitude you express towards Misophonia is one of the reasons why having
this disorder is such a burden. It has nothing to do with table manners. There
is nothing rational, or for that matter culturally relevant, about the
emotional reaction I have to someone eating an apple next to me. The visceral,
angry emotional response I feel to that sound has nothing to do with culture.

~~~
jklinger410
>The visceral, angry emotional response I feel to that sound has nothing to do
with culture.

So, you can't be wrong about this?

~~~
Lukman
That sound is not the only one that triggers my response, but I chose it
because of this argument: I don't think anyone would argue that there is
something culturally wrong (at least in western culture) with eating apples
around other people. And there isn't really a way to eat a whole apple without
making a sound that makes me irrationally furious.

~~~
sunnyP
I can't stand others eating an apple, but I can eat one without and issues.
The same behavior holds true for playing with loose coins or cellophane
wrappers.

How do you react to eating an apple yourself?

~~~
i2shar
That's right - I don't feel anything when I am eating myself, or even when I
am at a lunch table with others munching with me. It's only when I am not the
one eating. I also get irritated when I am on the phone and the person at the
other end is chewing or lapping.

Also, I don't think it's cultural and I suspect it might be hereditary.

~~~
Belphemur
I think I suffer from the same symptoms, but weirdly enough, if I'm at table
and I got food, there is no problem.

Even if I finish first and the other are still eating, it's really only when I
didn't eat / not eating that it infuriate me.

------
tominous
_> it's the fight or flight response_

One time I was watching TV, a nature documentary, with my pet rabbit hopping
around nearby. You should have seen her reaction when they played the sound of
a rattlesnake on TV! Poor bunny was out of the room in no time and stayed
quivering and stamping for quite a while.

So when I read about things like misphonia or even food aversion, my first
thought is that these people may be showing the rough outline of genetic
variants that may, in the right circumstances, be advantageous. (Of course
most times it's maladaptive, but you _need_ that initial variance for
evolution to act on).

Lo and behold: [https://blog.23andme.com/23andme-research/something-to-
chew-...](https://blog.23andme.com/23andme-research/something-to-chew-on/)

------
pklausler
Just because I may have "misophonia" doesn't mean that it's necessarily my
problem if I'm distracted in an open office plan by colleagues who like to
talk loudly to themselves, play drum solos on Tupperware containers, or move a
pound of gelatinous substances via air pressure from one sinus cavity to
another all effing day long.

~~~
SerLava
>or move a pound of gelatinous substances via air pressure from one sinus
cavity to another all effing day long.

Well, they chose oxygen instead of making you happy...

------
lfender6445
For myself I thought it bothered me because of how I was raised (not to chew
with mouth open, smacking sounds, eat quietly, etc)

~~~
Lukman
Same here. I think this is evidence of genetic factors - i.e. my dad has a
mild case and it manifested in him being very emphatic about training us not
to make sounds while eating.

~~~
checkoutmygenes
There _are_ genetic factors!

------
synthmeat
As someone who physically lashed out on human beings making annoying sounds,
regretting it and apologizing immediately after each time, I've developed only
single coping mechanism for it that doesn't at the same time destroy my
productivity and concentration (like most music that'd wash over such noise
does) - rain sounds.

------
tolger
This is very interesting. I think I have a mild version of this. Since I was a
young (6 or 7) kid I remember how it pissed me off when someone would make
noises while I was watching TV. It used to be enough for me to storm out of
the room.

Nowadays, I have more control, but it still bothers me when my office mate
munches on chips or an apple at work. I usually put on my noise cancelling
headphones and listen to death metal, and that takes care of the problem.

~~~
edem
Cannibal Corpse - Hammer Smashed Face?

~~~
sampo
That kind of brutal metal usually has several small pauses and other almost
quiet moments in the songs, so outside noise can be heard during those
moments. More melodic subgenres of metal usually have more continuous song
structures. Melodic metal fills in also in the higher frequency bands better
than brutal metal.

~~~
edem
Quite interesting approach. You might like Meshuggah then. Catch 33 fits what
you describe.

~~~
tolger
The Duskfall, Mors Principium Est or Kataklysm are my faves. Melodic but not
too melodic like Dark Tranquility.

------
codezero
I only recently discovered there was a name for what I experience. I was
surprised to find it's pretty rare, but it helped me at least feel a lot more
empathy towards people who make chewing noises!

------
sunnyP
Eating sounds combined with an open office plan is enough to make my head
explode.

------
jhedwards
What about countries where making sounds while eating is the norm? When I
lived in China the majority of people made sounds while eating and I never met
someone who was annoyed by it. This fact, while anecdotal, seems to suggest
that misophonia is learned or cultural.

~~~
sampo
According to this article, misophonia occurs in China, too. There is even a
support group in Baidu.

[http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1030060.shtml](http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1030060.shtml)

------
ENTP
I know someone who smacks their lips loudly when eating. Although noises in
general don't irritate me as per the article, this person's eating noise riles
me. Like another commentor, i think it's just a manners thing.

------
pizzetta
Some cultures are less sensitive to these noises than others --in some places,
people chew open-mouthed normally, which can get some getting used to as
someone used to chewing mouth closed.

------
dghughes
I don't know if I have misophonia but please tell me I'm not the only one who
finds it incredibly annoying when people suck their teeth in public.

------
checkoutmygenes
there's also a genetic link to misophonia: [https://blog.23andme.com/23andme-
research/something-to-chew-...](https://blog.23andme.com/23andme-
research/something-to-chew-on/)

------
b6
I think there's another way to attack the problem. I assume that the anger is
arising for good reason, that it is (or at least was) helpful to human
creatures. So it may be really difficult or impossible to prevent the anger
from arising.

But when you meditate, one thing you slowly but deeply learn is that your
thoughts are not you. Thoughts that bring you happiness arise even when you
didn't ask them to, and you want them to stay forever, but they don't.
Thoughts that make you feel bad arise even though you obviously didn't want
them to, and you try to make them go away, but they stay as long as they want.
But they eventually go.

So over time, as meditation practice develops, it can be as if you build a
second mind behind the first mind, and you live in that more quiet mind,
watching the first mind, seeing, e.g., wow, OK, there is anger in the mind.
But there's a distance because you know it's not you. It's there but it
doesn't move you so much.

~~~
bitexploder
That is quite eloquently put. I am reminded of Minsky and his color to this.
It is a useful view. To characterize emotions and feelings as subroutines that
input to your higher consciousness. Having that distance to say "ok, anger is
activating, what is it trying to tell "me"?"

Happy and sad are the same. These feelings arent "you". They are inputs to
your "you". When you can observe these feeling you can at times become
powerfully separated. But I also like to embrace the holistic integration at
times. To be "human" and let it all jumble together. It is quite beautiful and
tragic at times.

(Minsky, society of the mind).

------
draw_down
My explanation was "we find the other's enjoyment intolerable", but I guess
this one is better.

