
Effects of a glyphosate-based herbicide on soil ecosystem - saalweachter
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-44988-5
======
wcchandler
So the only way they evaluated Roundup was when they also used a hoe? Which
they also proved was just as detrimental of a process to the underlying micro-
organisms? Why not use roundup alone? I feel like this was written solely to
argue “roundup is no more detrimental to soil health than conventional hoeing
practices.”

~~~
benj111
Is there anything wrong with arguing that, with evidence?

I don't know why the study was done the way it was, and a follow up should
certainly look at roundup alone, I don't think that invalidates this study
though.

~~~
wcchandler
Not at all. We should all be free to pursue whatever interests us. :)

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pvaldes
> In our study, we focused on the trophic groups of soil micro and mesofauna
> rather than on their taxonomy.

hum, mumble, mumble... You need some taxonomy to be able to find trophic
groups. Nematoda taxonomy in particular can be hard but similar species can be
in different trophic levels.

No data available about species of animals or species of weeds in the area
when this is basical to understand allelopathy (and allelopathy is basical to
explain why some animals could be fleeing the area or be atracted to it).

Strange numbers of predators in some months with relatively low numbers of
preys...

I couldn't find also a clear explanation of what is in each trophic group

This elicit more questions than answers to me...

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avsteele
An interesting outcome.

Kudos to the authors for publishing a (kind of) null result, especially one
that goes against the grain of popular thinking.

~~~
mfer
I'm not sure if those goes against popular thinking. It only looked at one
small part of the ecosystem (i.e., what's in the soil). In that one small part
they may have found a null result, as you call it.

I would be curious to see something that aggregated the research of the
different parts of the ecosystem to look at a more holistic impact.

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arnoooooo
Glyphosate is not just used for weeding. It is used in much larger quantities
to dry plant stems before harvest.

~~~
captainredbeard
For those interested in this topic, it’s called desiccation.

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SolaceQuantum
_" We found that killing plants by hoeing had drastic effects on soil fauna
and functioning, and apparently, distinguishing these effects from direct
glyphosate effects is profoundly important when evaluating glyphosate risks in
soils. In contrast, the effects of Roundup on soil fauna and functioning were
minor and transient and no glyphosate remains were found in the soil at the
end of the experiment. These results suggest that side-effects can be minor
and glyphosate degradation effective also in soil under northern climatic
conditions."_

This is over a 2 year period. I'm curious if this continues to occur after 5
or 10.

~~~
thereisnospork
Surely the scientists have something better[0] to do than spend a few
man0-decades chasing a null result. Research resources, like anything, are
limited. From a Bayes' POV, the prior of finding glycophosphate in soil after
5-10 years is now much lower after the initial results.

[0] Like research the effects of a pesticide that they haven't just found to
'effectively degrade in soil'

~~~
bluGill
The Bayes prior was already low since Glyphosate was already well known to
degrade quickly in soil.

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aldoushuxley001
If only it wasn't a likely human carcinogen ([https://www.iarc.fr/featured-
news/media-centre-iarc-news-gly...](https://www.iarc.fr/featured-news/media-
centre-iarc-news-glyphosate/))

~~~
dekhn
Speaking as a biologist, the IARC made a huge bungle here deciding policy on
incredibly limited data.

~~~
aldoushuxley001
I'm also a biologist and I believe IARC was right based upon the available
evidence.

~~~
dekhn
based on the sprague-dewaley "cancer rats" experiments? Those aren't
sufficient evidence.

Why they are called "cancer rats":

[https://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/canres/33/11/2768...](https://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/canres/33/11/2768.full.pdf)

~~~
aldoushuxley001
There were 269 cited studies, they reviewed literally all the relevant
literature on glyphosate in the public domain. So your attempt to dismiss
IARC's work seems to be less motivated by the evidence and likely more
motivated by ideology.

~~~
zirror
If you care for an in-depth back and forth between the IARC and the ESFA, I
can recommend this[1] collection of letters between the head of the ESFA and
the head of the IARC at the time. If you are interested in the particular
scientific criticisms of the IARC Monograph by the ESFA you can read this
amazing letter[2], which is also in the collection mentioned above.

It's in the annex of that document. It's a very good read.

\------

[1]:
[http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/press/news/160113](http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/press/news/160113)

[2]:
[http://www.efsa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/EFSA_response_...](http://www.efsa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/EFSA_response_Prof_Portier.pdf)

~~~
aldoushuxley001
Great exchange, thanks for the link. Doesn't necessarily shine the best light
on ESFA eh?

Any idea if that bilateral meeting between IARC and ESFA ever happened?
Doesn't look like they put up the minutes like they suggested they would,
which leads me to believe it never happened. Maybe IARC felt like ESFA never
did the corrections requested and the meeting fell through. Either way, that
exchange is a beautiful illustration of scientists respectfully getting frosty
with eachother.

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6d6b73
They used glyphosate based herbicide, but report only detection of glyphosate
and AMPA, and not other ingredients that some people claim are the main
problem with Roundup.

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romaaeterna
> killing plants by hoeing had drastic effects on soil fauna and
> functioning...In contrast, the effects of Roundup on soil fauna and
> functioning were minor and transient

Not 100% sure what this "hoeing" is, but we need to ban it now before it
destroys the planet.

~~~
pvaldes
Chopping roots and undigging plants with a hoe: AKA agriculture

~~~
vonmoltke
More generally, mechanical manipulation of the soil. I learned at a recent
Rutgers University seminar that overworking of soil is surprisingly hazardous
to its health.

~~~
carapace
Soil is more akin to a living tissue than a mineral substrate.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhiza](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhiza)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycelium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycelium)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhizal_network](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhizal_network)

[https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/wood-wide-
web.html](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/wood-wide-web.html)

