
John Carmack on the Joe Rogan Experience [video] - sexy_seedbox
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlMSe5-zP8
======
tosh
On open sourcing Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake:
[https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=591](https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=591)

Neuralink:
[https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=2523](https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=2523)

Artificial General Intelligence:
[https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=2778](https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=2778)

Quantum Computing:
[https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=3106](https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=3106)

“Engineering is figuring out how to do what you want with what you’ve actually
got”:
[https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=3190](https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=3190)

End of Moore’s Law / On CPU architecture:
[https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=3860](https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=3860)

5G and streaming (games & video):
[https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=4288](https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=4288)

edit: like already mentioned there are a lot of topics covered, some even for
just a few sentences, the conversation flows, worth watching the whole thing

~~~
Nokinside
Carmack briefly mentions 5G and streaming games. I think there is good
economic reason for the 5G gaming is eventually coming (it may take some time)
because low latency enables it.

If you think about the price of gaming PC or console, there is huge
discrepancy between the budget of hardcore gaming enthusiast and casual gamer.
It would be nice to get $5000 gaming tower in every house, but you don't. Many
casual gamers would rent $5000 - $10,000 worth of gaming hardware for few
hours a week it was simple. Only way to get bleeding edge high-end gaming to
masses is to put GPU and some other parts to the edge (or at least within the
same city) and stream or partially stream the game to cheaper computer device
and screens.

Consider $5,000 worth of bleeding edge hardware that costs $1/hour to run. If
you rent it for $8/hour, and it only sells for 5 hours per day for gaming, the
HW pays itself back in 5 months. It could be rented out for other stuff in the
meantime. Cloudflare, what do you think?

I could see a market emerging similar to school VHS/DVD/Game rentals. There is
limited computational resource near you and you can rent it for gaming. If all
is taken (weekend evenings) the 'shelves' are empty. On working/school days
and hours you get the same thing cheaper.

It probably happens in Japan, South Korea and Nordic countries first.

~~~
mxfh
There seems to be confusion about what hardcore gaming means? Competive
Gaming, high-end user experience or bragging rights spec based enthusiasts.

My benchmark would be the XBox One X, which is perfectly capable of 4k 60 fps
gaming with HDR and Atmos, try to get that stable running with any PC, good
luck. That's 400 for the console and in total under 2000 if you need to get an
additional OLED-TV and Atmos-enabled-speakerset, which are not exclusively
gaming budget.

The only shortcoming there is the absence of fast current generation NVMe mass
storage and RTX-enabled GPU.

Reasonable high end PC gaming is possible well below $2000 or even $1000, even
$500 will get you decent performance for even casual competetive gameplay.

The priceyness of gaming rigs setups comes from the insane demand of getting
an edge at 4k 120+fps in FPS-shooters. That bracket can't be conviced by any
streaming services physical limitations for the next 10 year or so at least.

~~~
okmokmz
>try to get that stable running with any PC

Easy. It will obviously be more much expensive than a console, but it's
perfectly doable if you have the budget for it

~~~
mxfh
I have the budget, but not the time. Unless by budget you mean paying you own
household QA technician. Dolby Atmos over HDMI and HDR does not rhyme with
NVIDIA drivers, or very few of them, which then again tends to breaks my VR.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/ao4c0u/anyone_with_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/ao4c0u/anyone_with_working_dolby_atmos_what_nvidia/)

------
S_A_P
John is like many of the people Ive met that have no problem conveying a lot
of dense information quickly and easily and avoiding speech patterns that are
overly technical and difficult to understand. Some of the most intelligent
people I know are able to do that. That is a very underrated skill that I wish
I had. I forever stumble on words when Im explaining something
complicated/technical. Its like a cognitive dissonance that I am fighting
between saying technical jargon and dumb-ing down to layman's terms. Im sure
being on the other end of that it is perceived as condescending or just that I
dont know what Im talking about.

~~~
orblivion
One issue I have is that I can't bullshit people. I had a friend who I was
trying to explain things to, and often I made it too complicated. Another
friend explained it to her satisfaction, but I thought the particular
explanation given was deceiving. And yet she didn't care. I think it is
possible to be honest and yet simplify things to whatever level, but I'd
rather fail at explaining than give a false explanation.

~~~
splatzone
I find it's good to let people know that 'it's actually a bit more complicated
than this, but...'

~~~
thinkmassive
To illustrate this I like to use the analogy of very basic physics.

Even someone who never took calculus can usually grasp the concept of first
learning ideal velocity and acceleration, then adding details like friction.

------
AlchemistCamp
It's really great how he pushed so hard to open source the previous generation
of each game when releasing a new one. It's hard to tell how much that pushed
the industry forward, but I'm sure a _lot_ of people became better C
programmers as a result.

The "smell in VR" kits in this interview were interesting. I hadn't realized
so much progress had been made on that front (or that it would take so much to
make it as convincing as visual input).

~~~
pizza234
> but I'm sure a lot of people became better C programmers as a result.

A lot of people also became professional [level] designers because of his
works - Doom was innotivative, among the many things, in the fact that it was
designed from the ground up for extension (modding).

~~~
badocr
Indeed, and Valve hired a bunch of people from the Doom/Quake modding scene
for Half-Life 1.

~~~
pfranz
Valve's engine was also based off and licensed from Quake's.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoldSrc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoldSrc)

------
leftyted
He talks about AGI at
[https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=2776](https://youtu.be/udlMSe5-zP8?t=2776)

I wonder if all the really smart people who think AGI is around the corner
know something I don't. Well, clearly they know a lot of things that I don't,
but I wonder if there's some decisive piece of information I'm missing. I'm a
"strict materialist" too, but that doesn't mean I think we can build a brain
or a sun or a planet or etc within X years, it just means that I think it's
_technically possible_ to build those things.

I don't see how we get from "neural net that's really good at identifying
objects" to "general intelligence". The emphasis on computational power also
makes no sense to me. If we had infinite compute _today_ , what steps would
you take to build AGI? Does anyone have any good ideas about that?

Sometimes I wonder if AGI (and the concept of a "technological singularity")
isn't just "intelligent design for people with north of 140 IQ". Maybe really
smart people tend to develop a blindspot for really hard problems (because
they've solved so many of them so effectively).

~~~
mordymoop
The problem here seems to be that you think the state of the art resembles
“being really good at identifying objects”. This makes it clear that you are
not keeping up with the frontier. I recommend looking up DeepMind’s 2019
papers, they are easily discoverable.

When you read them, you will probably update in the direction of “AGI soon”.
It’s possible that you won’t see what the big deal is, I suppose. I personally
see what Carmack and others see, a feasible path to generality, and even some
specific promising precursors to generality.

It also helps to be familiar with the most current cognitive neuroscience
papers, but that’s asking a lot.

~~~
scep12
What are some of the highlights from DeepMind that gives you optimism for a
path to AGI? I am not seeing it, personally.

~~~
criddell
Is there anything in the structure of the brain that makes you think "of
course this is an AGI"? For me, the answer is no. That's why I think progress
on narrow AI and AGI is going to be unpredictable. Nobody will see the arrival
of an AGI until it's here.

~~~
coolspot
Some also think that nobody will see the arrival of an AGI even after it’s
here, because after arrival there will be no one left to see.

------
gigatexal
For those of you skipping to the heavily programming heavy parts I’d heartily
suggest listening to the whole thing. There’s a lot in there about life,
balance, working conditions in gaming, the need for sleep, martial arts, etc.
Lots of topics are discussed. It’s a great episode.

~~~
MS90
And twin-turbo'ing a Testarossa to 1009 hp AT THE WHEELS

------
Insanity
For those interested in the development of Doom (And Wolf3D, Keen, ..), or the
story of iD software in general, I quite recommend reading "Masters of Doom".

[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/222146.Masters_of_Doom?f...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/222146.Masters_of_Doom?from_search=true)

Coincidentally, I just started re-reading it last week. It's quite a fun book
:)

~~~
lpellis
Very fun book indeed, the audiobook is also very good. (narrated by Wil
Wheaton) [https://www.audible.com/pd/Masters-of-Doom-
Audiobook/B008K8B...](https://www.audible.com/pd/Masters-of-Doom-
Audiobook/B008K8BQG6)

~~~
panpanna
I find Will Wheaton's audiobook narration very annoying.

Stopped reading Red Shirts because of his childish voice acting.

~~~
lpellis
I can definitely see him becoming annoying for some contexts, but for this
book I found his exciting enthusiasm perfect, reminded me of that early
university/student energy.

------
Sholmesy
John Carmack is the perfect ultra nerd for this format. He's so good at
communicating complex ideas, to the point that even less-informed people will
enjoy this podcast. Dude's a hero.

------
SamReidHughes
If you’ve ever watched a QuakeCon talk, this is pretty much what you’d expect.

The one thing of note that I disagree with is his opinion on general AI. I
think that could take centuries, and that it’s kind of like trying to predict
when some unsolved math problem will be solved.

~~~
soup10
There is no real evidence that computers can be programmed to intelligently
invent and act on their own thought processes. All notable AI techniques to
date specify in exhausting detail the thought processes that the AI should
execute in carefully constructed algorithms. We're getting closer to the point
where we can tell the computer to "think and act like a human" and in more and
more domains it succeeds. But we're as far as ever from "think for yourself".

~~~
empath75
Any intelligent process has to emerge from the action of non-intelligent
components.

Your argument is the same as saying that a hurricane could never form because
air molecules do not contain wind, and water molecules do not contain rain.

~~~
balt_s
I'm skeptical of any argument which hinges on the word "emerge" or "emergent".
Consider: "consciousness is an emergent property of brains" vs "consciousness
is a magical property of brains".

~~~
empath75
Does ‘macroscopic property’ make you feel better? Like heat, or entropy or any
of the many properties in nature that are a consequence of the combined
actions of their constituent material.

Any other explanation would have to rely on the property being explained
existing all the way down to electrons and quarks.

Atoms aren’t a liquid, but room temperature water is. At some point, the
property of being a liquid emerges through the combined behavior of
collections of atoms.

We know that people are intelligent, we know that atoms are not. At some
point, the property of being intelligent must arise from the combined action
of their constituent parts. We have theories about how that happens, but no
way to reproduce it as of yet using computers — it may not be possible. But
there is no reason in principle that just because computers are comprised of
non intelligent components, that they cannot give rise to an intelligent
system. Humans are one example where such a thing has happened— I don’t think
anyone would suggest that neurons have intelligence and even if you believed
that, one certainly can’t believe that electrons and quarks do.

Of course one could posit a non physical entity or force which somehow exists
in people and does not in machines which gives rise to intelligence, but to
say the least that requires a great deal more evidence than we currently have
for that before I would accept that as an explanation.

------
Nokinside
Carmack makes good point about VR in the beginning. For people who live in
tight spaces VR can be way to do conventional things like watch films and
YouTube. This kind of conventional use could be what bootstraps VR markets.

VR headset tech is in a weird situation where none of them is really good
enough, but when you test the best in the market it destroys the enjoyment you
get from previous generation. I tested 20 minutes $6000 Vario VR-1 where the
market is professional use and now anything consumer grade feels like total
crap.

~~~
dalbasal
I'm not betting my whole stack on it, but I would bet some on the idea that an
imminent breakthrough/killer-app for consumer VR will be exercise. Could be VR
gyms. Could be home use.

Take a current-gen oculus/etc. Add a heart rate monitor, foot tracking, maybe
weighted controllers... you have some excellent workout potential. If price
can get to <$300, they will sell

A lot of the top games atm (beat saber, superhot, boxvr) are pretty exercise-
ey. Combining gamified fun/addictiveness, in-home convenience & all the
advantages of digitization (eg adjust speed in response to heart rate)... I
reckon it will be effective. We're not far from it.

An exercise-centric home VR console and/or VR gyms...

~~~
overcast
The killer app for VR is going to be escapism. There is going to be a future
where you're going to purchase experiences from companies. There will be an
underground, sex will be huge, travel, alter egos, just like in sci-fi movies.
Just wait until VR is like The Beam/Matrix, where you actually feel and sense
everything happening. People will be jacked in for most of their life. I
envision this being particularly popular for people nearing the end of their
lives, or disabled & crippled.

~~~
jackcosgrove
I don't want VR to simulate things I can actually do. I want VR to simulate
things I can never do.

A bunch of people "walking though a forest" while on treadmills in
microapartments sounds dystopian.

~~~
overcast
When you're old, feeble, handicapped, or unfortunately unattractive, these are
all things you can never do.

------
0-_-0
For those interested in all of Carmack's clever hacks in the Wolfenstein and
Doom source code that made it possible to run these games on PCs of the day,
the Game Engine Black Books are a great read (they are also free):

[http://fabiensanglard.net/gebb/index.html](http://fabiensanglard.net/gebb/index.html)

------
sexy_seedbox
For those who don't have time to watch/listen to the whole podcast ( _you
should though_ ), you can get the highlights on Joe Rogan's other channel, JRE
Clips:

[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnxGkOGNMqQEUMvroOWps6Q/vid...](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnxGkOGNMqQEUMvroOWps6Q/videos)

------
shayolden
Nice to see Team Fortress (Quake 1 mod) get a shout out. 23 years later, we've
still got a team developing and playing it.
[https://www.fortressone.org/](https://www.fortressone.org/)

~~~
bdickason
I hadn’t heard about this project, thanks for sharing!!! QWTF was one of my
first competitive games and I loved making custom maps for it.

~~~
drzel
Map making for Quake has come a long way with Trenchbroom. We're always
looking for more maps - join the discord and say hello!

------
sidcool
John Carmack is one of the most eloquent programmers I have heard.

~~~
lucaspottersky
yeah, but he could take a breath every once in a while

~~~
sidcool
He programmed his nostrils to breathe in parallel.

------
adnzzzzZ
Interesting perspective on work-life balance, certainly contrary to the usual
discussion online on these issues
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlMSe5-zP8&t=1h27m10s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlMSe5-zP8&t=1h27m10s)

------
infiniteseeker
The legend himself. Waiting for this one for a few days.

------
ur-whale
Not directly related, but everytime John's name pops up, it always reminds me
of one of his quotes:

    
    
         "Damn spooky analog crap." -- John Carmack

~~~
ovi256
Any context for this quote ? Google didn't find anything behind people using
it in their email signature.

------
plugger
Do they spend much time talking about Armadillo and/or rocketry? I'm curious
to hear Carmack talk about those topics but I'm not sure I want to wade
through 2 1/2 hours of Rogan if he doesn't delve into rocketry.

~~~
mifreewil
Starts right about here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlMSe5-zP8&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlMSe5-zP8&feature=youtu.be&t=7856)

2:10:56

~~~
elamje
This part through the end is pretty incredible! He’s a nonstop stream of
intellect.

~~~
mifreewil
The entire podcast is like this, highly recommend the entire episode.

------
davidjnelson
Really enjoyed that one!!! Fascinating to hear his story of how he pushed to
open source games... and how they started with allowing modding, then custom
scripting support, then open source. “The business folks didn’t like it” :-)

------
seph-reed
What if attaching digital inputs to our neurons and self hacking is the major
leap that will bring AGI out?

------
heisnotanalien
Everyone is already a phone head. Can't say I am looking forward to everyone
being a VR head.

------
body_lump
I liked so much the video. Pretty interesting.

------
brexiteer
People hate on Joe Rogan but I think he is an excellent host, the podcast has
people from all perspectives on and he manages not to offend any of them, most
come on subsequent episodes. I'll take a Rogan interview over some opinionated
bullshit clip from CNN/MSNBC/FOX.

~~~
stronglikedan
People hate on him _because_ he's an excellent host, and his lack of "outrage"
on controversial topics goes against the fiber of their beings.

~~~
drngdds
What you call a "lack of outrage on controversial topics" would be more
accurately called "unwillingness to seriously challenge the terrible ideas he
gives a platform to"

~~~
proc0
His job is not to challenge his guest's ideas, it is precisely to give them a
platform. Weak people are afraid of ideas and thus dislike this very notion.

~~~
quantdev
Agreed. I don't want to see hosts challenging their guests' ideas. I
appreciate Sean Carrol's physics podcasts for exactly the same reason: he
doesn't always agree with his guest's interpretation of quantum mechanics or
understanding of consciousness, but he does not argue with them - he helps
them present their best case.

If you want to see guests arguing with their hosts, well that's a form of
entertainment you can get on cable.

------
coding123
Why was this flagged and deleted yesterday. Anyway def awesome well worth
watching

------
AlchemistCamp
How is it that this post is ranked 77 with 52 points in 3 hours and only one
comment???

Meanwhile "Exploring Weight Agnostic Neural Networks" is at #2 with the same
age and only 46 points...

If people are flagging something like this that's so directly in the sweet
spot of "interesting to hackers" and non-flamewar inducing as this, then I
hope the mods aren't asleep at the wheel!

~~~
paggle
There are probably a lot of Joe Rogan reflexive downvoters because _gasp_ he
had some less-than-Carmackian guests on his show.

~~~
AlchemistCamp
HN doesn't have down votes for stories AFIK. People are probably abusing the
flag feature over 2nd degree associations that don't come up _at all_ in this
video.

