
Israel intervention in US elections ‘vastly overwhelms' anything Russia has done - DyslexicAtheist
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/israel-us-elections-intervention-russia-noam-chomsky-donald-trump-a8470481.html
======
wz1000
Accusations of Russian interference in American elections always reminds me of
this Time magazine cover story from 1996: RESCUING BORIS THE SECRET STORY OF
HOW FOUR U.S. ADVISERS USED POLLS, FOCUS GROUPS, NEGATIVE ADS AND ALL THE
OTHER TECHNIQUES OF AMERICAN CAMPAIGNING TO HELP BORIS YELTSIN WIN

[https://ccisf.org/wp-
content/uploads/2016/12/201612201405.pd...](https://ccisf.org/wp-
content/uploads/2016/12/201612201405.pdf)

From gloating about meddling in foreign elections to declaring Facebook ads an
act of war, America has sure come a long way.

------
mschuster91
I disagree with Chomsky here.

While the Israeli lobbying in politics seems "huge", it is done _in the open_.
Everyone and their dog knows about AIPAC and the military aid that is provided
to Israel so that Israel can buy US-made weapons (or, for that matter, the
German aid for U-boats). That's not really a problem IMHO - it both provides
jobs in the defense industry without supplying weapons to Saudi-Arabia at the
same time, and ensures the stability and viability of the one true democracy
in the Middle East. In addition, given the rise of antisemitism happening all
over the world it is an absolute imperative that Jews do have a "safe place"
in this world. That's what the purpose of Israel actually is and why it was
founded!

The Russian meddling, however, is different: it is done covertly. Russian
agents bribed politicians, financed or directly controlled troll campaigns on
Twitter, Facebook and Youtube. They directly or through obscure "loans" and
"donations" finance far-right parties across Europe and destabilize
democracies.

While I'm not a big fan of lobbying at all, I vastly prefer it to what the
Russians are doing.

~~~
Natsu
The problem with the 'destabilization' argument is that it's largely been
caused by the _reaction_ to the random Twitter/Facebook trolls, not the trolls
themselves. Seeing people flip out and want to ban free speech because of some
social media nonsense is a far more powerful reason to mistrust a group than
anything they could have actually posted against them on Twitter or Facebook
to begin with.

If you don't believe me, take a look at some of the actual memes they've been
posting: [https://imgur.com/a/ZjQ3PLS](https://imgur.com/a/ZjQ3PLS)

Can anyone tell me which of these memes presents an existential threat to
democracy and how?

~~~
mschuster91

         Seeing people flip out and want to ban free speech because of some social media nonsense
    

No one wants to "ban free speech". There just need to be limitations. There is
no valid reason for anyone (outside of art/education) to fly a Nazi flag,
doing the Hitler salute or call for putting people into gas ovens, stoning
them, raping them or whatever.

    
    
        Can anyone tell me which of these memes presents an existential threat to democracy and how?
    

Uhhh... there is this thing called "freedom of religion". Calling for "no more
mosques" runs directly contrary to this. And yes, people get riled up by these
"memes" so hard they'll even burn down mosques or bomb them. It happens in
Germany with _increasing_ frequency. What these memes do is create a massive
anti-Muslim, anti-refugee movement that sooner or later feels entitled to
violence.

Many of those people caught attacking refugee centers etc. are not classic
neo-Nazis. They're _ordinary citizens_
([http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/fluechtlingsheime-...](http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/fluechtlingsheime-
bundeskriminalamt-zaehlt-mehr-als-1000-attacken-a-1074448.html)), often
radicalized by social media.

~~~
Natsu
> No one wants to "ban free speech". There just need to be limitations.

The USA already has a narrow list of exceptions (true threats, defamation,
etc.) and several of the examples you cite are utterly reprehensible, yet
legally protected speech, so you're providing contradictory evidence here.

Granted, you may be in Germany where the situation is different? Of course, if
so, you would seem to be 'influencing US elections' by calling for this speech
to be removed, so I'm not sure where that gets us.

> And yes, people get riled up by these "memes" so hard they'll even burn down
> mosques or bomb them.

I'm not aware of any country that won't jail people for threatening to do such
things, and so they should.

------
ronreiter
Lobbying and interfering with elections by buying ads on Facebook are very
different things.

This is purely an anti-Israeli rant from Chomski, published by an antisemitic
news website. Nothing new under the sun.

~~~
creaghpatr
Yup, lobbying is far more effective and important than buying Facebook ads.

~~~
mondo9000
Sheldon Adelson gives $100m to the GOP and Trump signs a bill and gives $38
billion to Israel. Lobbying power has a good ROI whether your a corporation or
nation

