
Chinese government blocks Google.com, Gmail, Google+, Maps, Docs and more - derpenxyne
http://thenextweb.com/google/2012/11/09/chinese-government-blocks-google-com-gmail-google-maps-docs-analytics-drive-more/
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dak1
If I had to wager a guess, I'd say this is probably due to the 18th Party
Congress going on in Beijing right now, and that the block will be lifted
sometime in the next week, once the transfer of power is over.

I _think_ we may see some more moderates come to power, so I wouldn't expect
this to continue. Whether or not Wang Yang gets a seat in the Standing
Committee will be a good bellwether though.

~~~
squid_ca
Moderate fascists are still fascists.

------
mtgx
It seems they want to make an example out of Google: "If you disagree with our
censorship, this is what will happen to you, too", and create chilling effects
for any other company who's considering being "moral" in China.

I wonder if Obama will do this to China, too:

[http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/11/us-imposes-
sancti...](http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/11/us-imposes-sanctions-on-
iran-for-internet-censorship/)

~~~
Hermitian
The Chinese government is going through a transition period at the moment, so
much is undecided. But it is unfortunate (especially being Chinese) that the
central government is becoming more conservative overtime (politically
conservative, fiscally liberal). I do hope that this is just a phase rather
than something persistent.

With regard to foreign policy, the US had been playing a very interesting game
of hard-soft combination. Obama and the executive committee had been
relatively soft on the Chinese government. At the same time, the US
representatives to WTO and other trade organization had been pretty
persistent. I don't know how things will turn out, but I am pretty certain
that the US government will not impose sanction on China. That is a foolish
move giving the trade and the status of China in the global market.

~~~
Undulate
"politically conservative, fiscally liberal"

Fiscal politics are still politics so this doesn't make much sense, do you
mean socially conservative?

~~~
twmb
It appears to me that They're opening up their economy more to western
influences, but they're trying to maintain control of their own party and keep
everybody in line, similar to what Putin has done in Russia.

My theory is that as they open up more economically, the citizens will be
"enlightened", so to speak, and there will be more protests. If China
officials know this, they may be trying to stop this enlightenment before
they're put out of power.

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beck5
I was in China just last month and was surprised how openly everyone
circumvents the blocks. I stayed in a very large 25+ floor 4* hotel where the
entire free wifi went through a VPN. My Chinese friend said the government
turn a blind eye because they know business needs it and they want the
business.

~~~
camus
you mean, as long as one is not saying something the government dislike
anything goes... just like in any dictatorship.

~~~
Volpe
If that is your qualification for a dictatorship, then the U.S falls in that
category as well. See WikiLeaks, and Assange.

~~~
gurkendoktor
Downvoted, because "X happens in every dictatorship" does not mean "every
place where X happens is a dictatorship", and also because I think there is a
noticeable difference between Gmail and Wikileaks (even though I supported the
latter).

~~~
Volpe
Government doesn't want X to be said about it, and thus pressures/censors
company Y to stop it.

(X = "Anti-Communist sentiment" or "War crimes") (Y = "Google" or "Visa,
Mastercard, Amazon, Wikileaks... etc")

Not a huge noticeable difference.

The point I was trying to make, is everyone is quick to taint a discussion on
china with words like "Dictatorship", when in fact, china isn't (You know they
can vote!?), and all the 'evidence' of them being one are scenarios played out
in all countries.

~~~
gurkendoktor
Let's take it even further then,

Government doesn't want X to happen against its interests, and thus implements
measure Y to counter-act it.

Now all governments and governmental actions are the same.

Also, people in Eastern Germany could vote, that didn't help a lot. I am not
sure if dictatorship is the proper term when it's actually a one-party state /
oligarchy, though.

~~~
Volpe
There is a conservative wing and a progressive wing to the CCP... much like
there is a Republican party and a democratic party. one party state is
techniquely true, but in reality it plays out much like a 2 party system.

Government is oligarchical by nature. i would not rank the US much better than
china in that regard.

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olalonde
I'm located in Shenzhen, China and all those domains work as usual except for
Google+ and Google Docs which have been banned for a while. Google DNS also
works as usual. Even Google.cn redirects to Google.com.hk as usual. Guess I'm
either lucky or this was a very short lived ban in the middle of the night.

edit: Reading the article again, it seems Google didn't actually confirm the
block. They simply stated there was nothing wrong on their end. I also
strongly doubt they got in touch with a Google China representative in the
middle of a friday night. I smell link bait...

~~~
monkeypizza
from my testing, google.com and gmail have been blocked in Beijing for a few
days now.

Of course, this is the same government that forced taxi drivers to remove the
handles from their taxis so passengers can't roll down their windows, because
they were afraid someone would drive by Tiananmen square and drop a bunch of
ping pong balls with political messages on them.

~~~
nickpinkston
Yea, I was having on-off problems with Google domains as I traveled from
Xinjiang (Google blocked) to Shenzhen (Open) to Beijing (Spotty Open) - is it
that fickle all the time? Is it by region, time, or whim?

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Each ISP has their own implementation of the golden shield, so different
regions will block different things. The system is entirely opaque to us, I
wouldn't be surprised if blocks were determined at the decentralized local
level rather than by the central government. Beijing ISPs blocking more during
this "sensitive time" would be consistent with that thought.

~~~
nickpinkston
Sounds about right - pretty wild. What else surprised me was the strobe light
/ camera systems at the chokes points to cities / neighborhoods. Overall, I
don't think China seemed that bad - not like military with AKs everywhere, but
this stuff was quite interesting to see first hand.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The bizarre thing is that its a much freerer society than even the states in
some ways. The police don't really bother you unless the situation becomes
"visible," lots of sketchy things happen out in the open. You don't have to
wear a helmet when cycling, etc...

~~~
olalonde
You can drink beers in the street, nightclubs and bars don't have a closing
time, policemen are not armed, there is no law about where you can or cannot
smoke, it's ridiculously easy to get a visa and stay in China as long as you
want. You will never ever get a fine in China for a civil offense (not wearing
a seatbelt, spitting on the floor, peeing in public, crossing the street on a
red light, etc.). At worse, you are going to get a friendly warning. Traffic
policemen are not allowed to chase speeding cars. They will rely on license
plates and CCTV cameras instead.

China is surprisingly more free than many western countries as long as you
don't step into political territory. Being a foreigner also helps a lot. Some
people might argue that those freedoms seem anodin compared to freedom of
speech or political freedom but in many ways, those things have a bigger
impact on your everyday life than the latter freedoms. If you're libertarian
leaning like me, you'll probably like China.

~~~
ern
What would happen if a law _was_ passed banning smoking in a particular area?
Would ordinary Chinese be able to object to it, would they be able to petition
the legislature that passed the law without fear of reprisal? What if your
kid's school adopted something in the curriculum that you found objectionable
- could you complain without fear? I am not being snarky, I really am curious
about how bright the line is between the political forbidden territory and
uncontroversial.

~~~
olalonde
> What would happen if a law was passed banning smoking in a particular area?
> Would ordinary Chinese be able to object to it, would they be able to
> petition the legislature that passed the law without fear of reprisal?

In general, the central government tries to maintain a good popular opinion so
complaining does work in some ways. It's also fairly straightforward to join
the party if you are really into politics. I believe you are relatively safe
from reprisal as long as you complain about a specific policy, not the actual
party.

When people are unhappy about something, the party's modus operandi is to
blame local government or corruption and fix whatever is making them unhappy.
The nice thing about the party is that it is highly decentralized making it
easier to back off without losing face or perceived authority.

In the case of Internet censorship, it doesn't affect 99.9% of Chinese so
there isn't much people complaining about it. Most Chinese don't have a clue
what Google Maps or Gmail is. The prevalent websites here are Baidu for
search, Baidu maps for maps and Yahoo for email. Would the average Joe in the
US complain about Baidu or Youku being blocked by the government?

> What if your kid's school adopted something in the curriculum that you found
> objectionable - could you complain without fear?

I'm not sure who sets the curriculum and whether you could successfully get it
changed. I believe it would be easier in that case to send your kids to a
private school.

Personally, I feel China is freer than the US or Canada in ways that have a
more noticeable impact on my life. Then again, I would probably be more
concerned about freedom of speech and political freedom if I couldn't leave
China as easily I can right now.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Indoctrination happens in public school in China, and you can't do much about
it. There is no such thing as a private school for locals (officially at
least, there are some underground schools for migrant worker kids), though
there are international expat schools that are super expensive. Most public
school have tuition and competitive admission anyways.

------
lgleason
If the Chinese want to block a US software company from doing business in
China by blocking access to them, then the US should impose tarifs on any
software outsourcing to China with stiff penalties for any companies trying to
circumvent it.

~~~
iwwr
It's not the generic 'Chinese' who are at fault, but their government.
Economic sanctions, like always, will just hurt the people while strengthening
the government's power base.

~~~
taf2
to a point... enough economic pressure will eventually trigger revolution...
or can at least make it very unpleasant for the government to continue it's
ridiculous position

~~~
smokeyj
> eventually trigger revolution.

These are the Chinese we're talking about..

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The government is corrupt enough that they might as well could trigger a
revolution themselves someday. Interference from us would hardly matter.

~~~
scarmig
If anything, interference in Chinese domestic matters would solidify the
ruling oligarchy's dominance.

------
anchoring
Chinese people are not just Americans without good internet access...

The Chinese propaganda/education/censorship system is set up to accommodate
all levels of disbelief of propaganda - that's built in to the propaganda,
too.

So there is the official line, then there's the unofficial official line -
which is generated by being pessimistic relative to the official line.

If the official line is that 7 people died in a disaster, rumors will float
around that it was really 70, and people hearing that will feel content, cause
hey, 70 people is not a lot to pay for 20 years of good economic development.
Since they're anchored by the official line, suspicions never jump to 7000
people died, 20k people had their lives destroyed, which may be the reality.

It's the same with corruption - if an official gets busted for embezzling,
skeptics guess that his wife is still overseas with millions, he had a couple
cars, mistresses - but now he got his due and will never get out of jail. But
they never guess that he was the equivalent of a mob boss in his city, had
peasants disappeared, isn't even actually serving jail time, etc. (because
that story would never, ever be mentioned again.)

So, rumors slightly inflating the official line are allowed, even encouraged,
since they strengthen that line. But rumors showing that the official line is
totally fake are destroyed - any reporter who brings one up can look forward
to a life in a small town working in a factory, no education for their child,
and nobody would ever hear a word about it, anyway.

~~~
Volpe
Great little rant, but provide some citation please. Which reporters are
currently in re-education camps, and It's unheard of that an entire family is
sent for re-education (unless the entire family committed a crime together),
which makes me doubt most of what you've said.

Also which event are your referring to with the 70 (actually 7000) deaths?

It's funny you are railing against propaganda by writing propaganda, please
inform your points with actual data.

~~~
anchoring
well, tian an men is a good example. chinese people have an idea something
happened, but no idea that possibly hundreds of people died.

also, i'm not talking about re-education camps. just messing with someone's
hukou is enough to ruin their life - they'd no longer be able to work in the
city they want to and their kid would not be able to go to school.

~~~
Volpe
Well you raise Tiananmen, which is impossible to prove either way. But it is
well known that people died amoung chinese (hence the massive emigration
during and right after).

And now you've raised messing with Hukou, I hadn't heard of that happening,
and again, you still haven't provided any sources for your info. I imagine it
is extremely hard to mess with Hukou as you'd have to change birth records as
well, Given china doesn't have a centralised system (for either birth or
Hukou) records, it would be very complicated to achieve this.

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caycep
Hope this shoots the CCP in the foot. The interwebs are awash w/ the latest US
election results, and viral youtube videos of Obama thanking his young
twentysomething campaign staffers.

To give young Chinese such a glimpse of this and then brutally remind them
that they don't have such luxuries of idealism and empowerment just highlights
the failings of the CCP system even more...

~~~
aes256
> The interwebs are awash w/ the latest US election results, and viral youtube
> videos of Obama thanking his young twentysomething campaign staffers.

Strangely enough, those kind of images remind me of a Chinese-style
dictatorship. Legions of apparently adoring fans worshipping their benevolent
leader, chanting slogans, etc.

To the rest of the world, the presidential election is a reminder of
everything that is wrong with America.

~~~
wololo
you're from the UK, right?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britishness> In November 2007 The Times' Comment
Central asked readers to define Britishness in five little words. The winning
suggestion was "No motto please, we're British."

~~~
aes256
Not sure how this is relevant?

~~~
wololo
I'm sorry, what I meant was that (stereotype warning) the British are
particularly cynical-reserved about putting your identity/politics on your
sleeve, and the Americans are the opposite, so part of your disgust might be
from cultural differences

or to further quote, “The point I was making is, this idea of a statement of
Britishness; I cannot think of anything less British than that,” said 25-year-
old David Bishop, author of the winning motto.

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BryanB55
Does anyone know what this means for US websites that use Google Analytics and
are visited by people in China? Not that many of my website visitors are in
China but I'm wondering if it will also stop the tracking code from working.
I'm guessing it would since it won't be able to connect back to GA.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The same thing that happens when we visit websites with Facebook embedded. It
just fails.

~~~
andybak
'it' being the embedded component or the whole page?

My guess is that it would depend on whether the old sychronous code or the
newer async GA code was used. Not sure if the former is even still supported.

~~~
ams6110
The browser will get a 404 when it tries to load the GA script, or simply get
a tcp connection refused. It won't affect the rest of your site unless you are
depending on other assets served from google.com.

------
CWuestefeld
Aargh. I'm leaving for a vacation in China in a week and a half. I guess I'm
going to have to set up my own VPN tunnel to ensure that I can still access my
email, etc.

I'm assuming I can set something up through my dd-wrt router at home. Off to
read the docs...

~~~
jcampbell1
When I was in China for a year, I just used a company dev server with a ssh
socks proxy. It worked well, and it is one command in the terminal, and
changing 1 setting in network preferences.

This is much easier than trying to find VPN service that isn't blocked.

~~~
monkeypizza
if you have shell access to a hosting account...

autossh -M 25841 -ND 127.0.0.1:8088 -i /home/.ssh/id_rsa user@host.com

and then tell your browser (or foxyproxy) to use it. one-line vpn that
probably won't get blocked by china, ever.

------
mongol
Google Docs were blocked earlier this year when I was in China. I had put part
of my travel plan there so it was an inconvenience, but as I did not expect it
I felt very offended by that.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Google Docs is always blocked, along with YouTube. Google search engine is
sometimes blocked, gmail is rarely blocked as that would cause too much
disharmony, but something has changed...these congresses are a pain in the ass
anyways, I'm glad I'm out of country this month.

------
mmahemoff
"Using a DNS server outside of China doesn’t help. A lookup of www.google.com
to 8.8.8.8 is also distorted, by the Great Firewall."

Probably better to try that on a DNS server not owned by Google!

------
Intermediate
I had problems accessing google services from China long before. I just
started using proxy for all google websites, so I didn't even mentioned last
changes

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deviloflaplace
In 15-20 years, a new generation that is aware that nothing can really ever be
"blocked" on the internet will come to power.

Until then, long live dns servers & vpn.

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turingbook
There should be nothing new. Google services are blocked for several years.
But not every service is blocked in the same way.

Google+ and Docs is wholly blocked a long time ago. Google.com is blocked
intermittently. Gmail and Maps are usually OK, but not very fluent these
several days.

GFW is a mysterious monolithic and complex system. No outsider knows the rules
and mechanisms.

~~~
b6
I agree. I just want to add that I think they have a "degrade" mode designed
more to be annoying than to block access. I know people here in Shanghai who
hate Google products because they're so "slow", "unreliable", etc. Of course,
they're perfect through a VPN.

~~~
turingbook
Actually I have switched to Bing as my default search engine for a while. For
English, Bing is good enough but very bad for Chinese.

~~~
lispython
I use DDG, as when the Chinese results far from your desire, you can easily
add some key words like g! to invoke google's engine for help.

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Shank
They even took down the country specific access points - including
Google.com.HK. Have they ever done that in the past?

~~~
karlsun
This is pretty par for the course, given the once / ten years party congress
that is going on.

Every year around June 4 (anniversary of Tiananmen "incident") and typically
around Oct 1 (national day) Google gets blocked for a few days.

China is much more adept at censoring the Internet than everyone thought 5-10
years ago.

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listronica
I wonder if this is to do th google new offering and its possible attempts to
bypass whatever firewall systems China have around its internet
[http://www.google.com.ph/intl/en/mobile/landing/freezone/ind...](http://www.google.com.ph/intl/en/mobile/landing/freezone/index.html)

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jiggy2011
So , if you run a business or are a student or whatever and use gmail/google
apps for email and have your important documents in google docs it's just FU I
guess?

------
known
<http://viewdns.info/chinesefirewall/?domain=gmail.com>

------
jdelsman
What else is new?

------
bitcartel
Android sales are strong in China but that might change as despite Android
being open-source, over-the-air updates are a potential risk.

Thus it's quite likely that home-grown solutions will be encouraged to grow
market share, at the expense of Google. Just recently, Acer started selling a
phone based on Aliyun, a fork of Android backed by Alibaba.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyun_OS>

~~~
w1ntermute
> Despite Android being open-source, over-the-air updates are a potential
> risk.

If Verizon can control OTA updates, then no doubt the Chinese government can.

From the Chinese govt's POV, Android is preferable to iOS, where they have no
control.

------
jamesbrennan
I wonder how much revenue Google is losing from this.

------
antihero
Why do people not use SSH tunnels/OpenVPN?

~~~
b6
People who know how do. But most people just work with whatever software comes
on their device, and maybe more importantly, they've never seen the "real"
Internet, so they don't feel the need to try to get back to it.

