
US tells India it is mulling caps on H1Bs to deter data rules - ETHisso2017
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-india-exclusive/exclusive-us-tells-india-it-is-mulling-caps-on-h-1b-visas-to-deter-data-rules-sources-idUSKCN1TK2LG
======
nilsocket
Master Card and Visa are failing, because we have something better in place.

BHIM (Bharat Interface for Money) developed by National Payments Corporation
of India.

\- Transferring money from one personal account to any new account (adding a
beneficiary account) would take more than 4 hours.

\- One needs to login each and every time to transfer money.

\- There is a chance of forgetting password and account being locked on
multiple tries.

\- Extra charges for transferring money.

All this problems were solved by BHIM new UPI (Unified Payments Interface).

\- Linking bank account with app (takes less than 1 minute)

\- Transferring money doesn't have any extra charges

\- No password, but 4 to 6 digit pin for transaction.

\- Safe, transaction can be done only from mobile which is linked with bank.

Additional benefits,

There is no need to give personal information, one can provide UPI address or
Virtual UPI address.

In Google Pay app,

If my Gmail account is xyz@gmail.com

Then my UPI would be, xyz@ok{bankname}

If my bank is SBI,Then my UPI is xyz@oksbi

Mentioning this address, anybody can make a payment or request one.

Edit: Formatting

~~~
nunez
I completely believe it. I spent two months in Hyderabad. India is WAYYY ahead
on the payments game.

Every business, no matter the size, accepted mobile payments (usually PayTM,
but I saw support for PhonePe, Zeta and others). The US is super behind on
this; very, very, very few retailers accept Square Cash, more accept PayPal,
none of them accept those payments easily. Any app that does mobile banking
requires KYC verification. For mobile payments, usually support soft KYC,
which you can easily fake, but only lasts 180 days. For anything else online
banking related, hard (in-person) KYC was required.

Every terminal supported credit/debit cards (though using international cards
was a crap-shoot, and AMEX even more so) and all of them expected Chip + PIN.
People were legitimately surprised when they saw that I had to sign. Some
didn't even ask for the signature because they weren't used to it.

Everything in India uses SMS OTP and requires an India phone number to receive
it. This was super annoying before getting a Indian SIM card, but once I did,
I realized how nice of a system this was.

There were many things about the India experience that I wasn't a fan of;
paying for stuff was definitely not one of htem.

~~~
kamaal
>>India is WAYYY ahead on the payments game.

Only if you(and the person receiving) can afford a smart phone, and an
internet connection.

The edge US has is the cards are ubiquitous, they cost nothing to carry and
use. Every one has them, and every one receiving them has the readers. Most
credit unions don't charge for checking accounts, and transaction fees are $0.

US is WAYYY ahead on the payments access game.

~~~
gingabriska
Not just that but getting an account to process international card is very
difficult in India and setting up recurring payments or SaaS very difficult.

~~~
nonamechicken
I recently tried to buy Office 365 from MS India. It just kept on failing with
my India debit card even though it accepts both debit/credit cards. The error
message was not helpful and finally came to know from customer care that it
was due to the debit card. So, it can go both ways.

------
belltaco
>The move, however, was not solely targeted at India, the source said.

>“The proposal is that any country that does data localization, then it (H-1B
visas) would be limited to about 15% of the quota

It does sound targeted at India and perhaps China because they are the largest
countries with English speaking populations and take a large percent of visas.
I doubt the European countries or most other countries will be affected by
this since they have way smaller populations and fewer people looking to work
in the US.

Anyway I am not totally opposed to restricting new H1B visas to 15% since work
based green cards are 7% max per nationality causing long delays. They just
need to make sure that people waiting for green cards close to a decade while
on H1B are not affected by this.

However, if this does happen, it will accelerate offshoring to India
tremendously and end up benefiting work immigration friendly countries like
Canada. Microsoft already has a large campus right across the border in
Vancouver, and other companies will follow suit with setting up in Canada and
India.

------
paxys
As an Indian - good! This will help the local IT industry tremendously.

~~~
ETHisso2017
I wonder, how much do Indians prefer emigration vs remote work? Assuming pay
is equal

~~~
nonamechicken
Even if pay is half or one third, I prefer India (saying as someone who was an
h1b in US for 6.5 years). India has a lot of problems-bad infrastructure,
crazy traffic, poor air, bad policing and so on. Life in India is basically
like playing a game in difficult mode while US is easy mode. But the peace of
mind that comes with not having to live in the uncertainty that h1b brings is
insanely huge. When it comes to quality of life, while things like good air
matters, the "uncertainty" seems to override pretty much everything else, at
least in my case. I guess my lizard brain sees it as "US has lot of resources
that will get you lot of food, but there are plenty of predators, so you must
go somewhere free from those, and until you do that I am going to make you
miserable". It may sound stupid, but that's how I make sense of my experience
as an h1b.

Based on my rough estimates, when I compare an h1b (earning $100k in midwest
per year and paying $1000 per month rent with a stay at home spouse and kids)
vs the same person working in India with spouse also working (both earning
₹50-70k per month), the person in India can save more or less same. And if
that person were to try in one of the good companies in big cities say
Bengaluru, they most likely will save more.

Bankruptcy due to medical bills is another major concern (one of my h1b
friends faced this, ended up wiping out all his savings he had from his 1+
year stay in US, and I think some of it went to collections).

Another issue is the one faced by h1b spouses, who are predominantly women.
With the proposed removal of h4 work authorization (h4 means spouses of h1b),
this becomes an even bigger issue considering that Indians typically have to
wait anywhere from 15-20-50-150 years for the green card. Imagine being
completely reliant on your spouse on a foreign country with absolutely no
support. I wouldn't want to be in that situation, I don't want my wife to be
in that either. One can never know when a person will change.

>Sharing her experience while interacting with the victims of domestic
violence, Peshawaria said overarching their rather harrowing lives is the fear
of social stigma that is particularly intense for the women who come from
south Asia. More often than not, they have been told stories about how a
wonderful life awaits them in America, the world's richest country, which
would be a dramatic improvement for them compared to what they experience in
India," she said.

[https://www.news18.com/news/india/indian-american-lawyer-
aut...](https://www.news18.com/news/india/indian-american-lawyer-authors-book-
on-domestic-violence-among-south-asians-in-us-1996111.html)

And reports like below makes me suspicious of how great the immigrant life is
actually. I am not saying crimes/suicides don't happen in India, but its not
that reassuring since I am not sure if its murder-suicide or if they were
targeted.

* June 2019-Iowa family of four found dead with gunshot wounds: [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/iowa-family-four-f...](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/iowa-family-four-found-dead-gunshot-wounds-n1018081)

* May 2019-'Why haven't they found the killer yet?': Sikh family want answers in West Chester (quadruple) shooting: [https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2019/05/08/west-cheste...](https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2019/05/08/west-chester-sikh-family-shooting-ohio/1130155001/)

* February 2019-Friends reel from suspected murder-suicide death of Sugar Land, TX, couple: [https://www.newsindiatimes.com/friends-reel-from-suspected-m...](https://www.newsindiatimes.com/friends-reel-from-suspected-murder-suicide-death-of-sugar-land-tx-couple/)

~~~
kamaal
As some one who returned from US, this is how I look at US/Outside India stay:

1\. Ensure you are rich/have lot of money.

2\. Ensure you are healthy.

Even if one doesn't apply to you, life can be hell outside India. This is to
an extent you won't even get a shoulder to cry upon. A lot of people think
they have a social structure in the US, until they have call upon on in the
times of emergencies, and realize they have none. A lot of this depends on a
major disease never touching you, and having life long 20% YoY career growth.
You have to be lucky beyond belief to fit into this definition, this is
regardless of how hard you can or are working.

The problem with this luck game is, no one is lucky enough to be lucky
forever. Most people who settle in the US are really having tons of luck going
for them in early life. That's the good news. The bad news, is if you plan to
toss a coin a billion times, and a straight 10K heads have shown up. Guess
what a straight 10K tails are coming sooner or later.

Go figure.

~~~
throwaw4324
Isn't there a burgeoning Indian community though ?

~~~
kamaal
Most of it won't come to your help. You would be hard pressed to call upon a
close friend.

In most cases its colleagues who graduate to being friends. But those
generally wither away when you change companies. Others are made at community
centers, they are mostly like frenemies.

If you plan to settle in the US, ensure you don't get poor and stay healthy.

------
nilsocket
Reason for storing financial data within the country is, because in India
corruption rate is high and no.of tax paying citizens are very less.

Indeed it is important for us to store financial data within the country to
stop non tax abiding citizens.

Money laundering is also a huge problem. Citizens were being educated, not to
take cash in large amounts, for the same reason.

Even after demonetization, government was not able to get rid of black money.

Edit: grammar

~~~
csdreamer7
How would requiring information be stored in the country prevent corruption?

Countries can already demand any business records of their citizens from a
business as a condition of doing business in that country or citizens.

The US requires that any fin business that does business with US Citizens
report to the United States government or be cut off from the US financial
system. A lot of international banks responded by closing the accounts of
Americans rather than deal with the costs of compliance.

~~~
nonamechicken
I don't know much about this topic (finance). But since I see news reports
regularly of Indians depositing black money in foreign banks, I am posting
this. I am not really sure if this 'financial data must stay in India'
requirement could solve the problem of black money.

>The total amount of black money deposited in foreign banks by Indians is
unknown. Some reports claim a total of US$1.06 - $1.4 trillions is held
illegally in Switzerland. Other reports, including those reported by the Swiss
Bankers Association and the Government of Switzerland, claim these reports are
false and fabricated, and the total amount held in all Swiss bank accounts by
citizens of India is about US$2 billion. In March 2018, it was revealed that
the amount of Indian black money currently present in Swiss and other offshore
banks is estimated to be ₹90 lakh crores or US$1500 billion.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_black_money](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_black_money)

Getting Switzerland to release that information isn't that easy. I have been
hearing about it for at least 5 years, may be more. Even 4 days ago, there
were reports like this: [https://www.businesstoday.in/current/economy-
politics/noose-...](https://www.businesstoday.in/current/economy-
politics/noose-tightens-on-swiss-account-holders-details-of-at-
least-50-indians-being-shared/story/356528.html)

------
mac01021
The efficacy of this as a deterrent seems to depend on the notion that India
would like its citizens to be able to obtain H1 visas from the US.

Is that the case?

~~~
NTDF9
Yes and no.

Yes, because it directly affects the business of large outsourcing companies.
It also drops remittances, one of the largest sources of dollars for India.

No, because for many decades, India has been trying to keep their smartest
citizens to build their own country. Making local companies, serving at local
hospitals, teaching at local schools and universities. They want their own
Google, Microsoft, Sun Microsystems, Adobe instead of Indian citizens working
in the US for US corporations. They were just unsuccessful for so many years
because countries like US drained the well-educated so much.

Ultimately, this will be a great deal for India. India doesn't want
remittances. They want their own companies to make software that the world
wants to buy.

~~~
darklajid
Help me understand the first part. Why do you need a US visa (well, THAT visa
- I understand a 'fly over for a meeting' visiting visa) as an outsourcing
company?

What I mean is: How are the outsourcing companies affected by this?

~~~
NTDF9
Its a business visa to allow exchange of ideas quicker, better.

Imagine GE, a company with a pool of power electronics talent in the US, wants
to build specialized power plants for the Indian market. They can't do it
remotely from the US. They will fly their US employees to India to study the
market, understand rules and constraints, design and consult local Indian
teams. The US employees need to stay there for years to build those things.

All that requires India to give US citizens the visa to work for such a long
time. And India does give that. Business visas in India are easy to get.

Reverse the roles and if an Indian company wants to use their own pool of
talent to do business in the US, H-1b are the only ones available for long
term business related work, which got totally distorted by politics over the
years.

[https://www.usa-corporate.com/start-us-company-non-
resident/...](https://www.usa-corporate.com/start-us-company-non-
resident/intro-us-business-visas/)

~~~
nunez
Then why doesn't India restrict inflow of US citizens in return?

------
mailmrg
if free flow of data across countries helps in privacy then HIPAA should not
have rule that healthcare data of US citizens need not be stored only in US.
Will USGOV relax that norm ? the Indian govt rules are about storing financial
data within the country and not gmail data.

~~~
0xab
There's so much wrong with this.

HIPAA doesn't talk about US citizens or distinguish different types of records
based on any properties of the people that those records cover. The words
citizen do not appear in HIPAA or HITECH. HIPAA applies to any records by
covered entities, which is what it discusses, regardless of who those records
refer to.

There is no requirement in HIPAA that PII must be stored in the US. This is
such basic info it's in the HIPAA FAQ from HHS [https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-
professionals/special-topics/c...](https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-
professionals/special-topics/cloud-computing/index.html). Question 9 is
unequivocal, you can store data outside of the US, but you need to think about
any dangers or risks associated with this. Which is totally logical.

There are lots of reasons to have issues with the US. But not what you're
talking about.

------
bigbigs
lol. If you don't change your data rules, we'll shoot ourselves in the foot by
removing the cheap labor that we've become addicted to.

~~~
jimmaswell
It would be a good thing in the long term. Too many programming jobs are taken
up by things like this, especially jobs for fresh college grads. I wouldn't
mind harsh limitations on all software offshoring/worker importing in general.

~~~
addicted
Right, because college grads in STEM fields are just really struggling to get
good high paying jobs right now.

~~~
sadris
RAND corporation found that the H1B program reduced tech worker's salary by
9%.

------
cobbb
The Problem is TRADE not H1B visas . ...

Simple example every Enterprise level company has IT department in US. the CTO
or the VP of the company wants to save money by going to offshore business
model ... so how does this work, let say an infrastructure IT support in
company consists of ( storage, database, network , System admins etc say about
150 employees) then a new CTO or VP of IT comes in and he decides to go for
offshore model then enters the cheap low tech incompetent service companies
from Asia bids these projects here .. let say 200 Million dollars for 5 years
24/7 support .. so these Body shopping company decides to have about 60
employees offshore and 10 employees onshore here in USA using H1b visa ... now
the CTO of the company feels happy for saving money and starts firing ..sorry
(Let go) of those 150 citizens..... this happens in every company across this
country i know because I've seen it All..

now those employees who given their flesh and blood to those projects over
years gets emotionally raged...at the time of KT( knowledge transfer) to those
H1B onshore slaves.. saying you guys are taking our jobs away. and all that
BS. BUT they forget One big Logic/common sense..that they lost their jobs
because satanic .. crooked CTO's or VP of IT of their own company and due to
the company it self .... not because immigrant came over H1B visa..

Let say for the argument of emotional mob .. that the H1b is completely
removed by some revolution...do you really think the jobs will come back
hahaha... those body-shopping companies will be more happy because that will
give them a chance to make more money.. they will make 100% offshore and then
they wont even keep those 10 h1b resources onshore.. they will make a deal
with those crooked CTOs to operate everything from offshore ...so the
emotional mob will be still unemployed even after H1B is removed ..

the solution is the current administration should bring up the trade barriers
a Bill to stop offshore business model completely which they wont do since
this country is built and run by Rich CEOs.......

------
gopkarthik
_Pompeo said the Trump administration would push for free flow of data across
borders, not just to help U.S. companies but also to secure consumers’
privacy._

How does 'free flow of data across borders' help secure consumers' privacy?

Setting caps on H1Bs is the US governments prerogative though this will have
adverse impact on US-India relationship.

~~~
NTDF9
> How does 'free flow of data across borders' help secure consumers' privacy?

This is not about consumer privacy. This is about corporate profit. Visa,
Mastercard and other US banks want to maintain fewer datacenters around the
world. They already have them in the US (because US law) and they possibly
also feed that data to US govt.

With such localization laws, US corporations are having to invest in other
countries. They are lobbying to bully other countries for profit and this
administration is ready to support profits at any cost.

~~~
paxys
Maintaining foreign data centers isn't really an issue for large companies.
All cloud providers already support various data residency and compliance
requirements. Companies are happy to follow these laws if it means more
business for them.

It is the US government which has a problem because it wants direct access to
data from foreign countries & corporations. In fact Microsoft was involved in
a very long legal battle with them over it -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._United_Stat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._United_States).

------
fourier_mode
Instead of worrying about location of the servers, the real point should be
which government should be in control of the data. Even if the data is located
in India under US government pressure on a company, say for some
investigation, the US would still be access the data; the companies can still
sell the data to other US-based companies.

Or, is location being used metaphorically over here?

~~~
devoply
Perhaps. But you still have oversight and physical access. You could bug the
servers. You could monitor their network and so on. Your courts could create
orders against the data on your servers. Also it's very dangerous as we have
seen to have all your citizen's data exposed as it could allow like a country
to better socially engineer your public and determine outcomes of elections.

I would double down and say if you do that, I will ban all H1Bs from leaving
the country. Let's see how Trump and Silicon Valley feels about that.

~~~
fourier_mode
> You could bug the servers. You could monitor their network and so ...
> determine outcomes of elections

This is again irrespective of the server's locations.

------
writepub
More Americans travel to India on business than Indians seeking H1-Bs.

If the US wants to limit work visas to Indians, India should limit any work
based travel of Americans to India.

~~~
sethherr
This is a joke? You realize work visas are different from travel visas, right?

------
scarejunba
Bit of an empty threat. Probably hurts America more than India.

------
devoply
If you don't let us steal all your user data, we won't brain drain your
country. Sounds like a good deal for India other than the remittances sent
back by citizens.

~~~
pixelrevision
This was pretty much how I read it.

------
petre
This is quite a silly threat as it would reduce brain drain. Cool, go ahead,
keep smart Indians in India while also not spying on Indian citizens because
their data is also kept in India. Win-win for India.

