
Kindle Fire HD 8.9 vs. iPad 3: Is the Apple Experience really worth $200? - evo_9
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/135646-kindle-fire-hd-8-9-vs-ipad-3-is-the-apple-experience-really-worth-200
======
Legion
What this tells me - and it's what I expected even as I put down the money for
the iPad 3 - is that in a couple of years, hi-dpi screens will be a stock
feature even on the cheapest commodity tablet.

That's an amazing thing, if you ask me. Hi-dpi screens are a benchmark feature
that made me a heavy mobile device user. Web browsing on a phone was not very
appealing, and then comes the "Retina" display on the iPhone 4, and bam, I'm
an Apple customer.

I got an iPad 1 as a gift, and I ended up using it for reading a lot more than
I expected, which just had me itching for the day a "Retina" display landed in
an iPad. Got the iPad 3 recently and love it to bits, much more for that
screen quality than anything in the iOS ecosystem.

Hi-dpi is what finally killed print media fully for me. I have no use for
print books or magazines. I have an old-ish Kindle e-ink reader and the iPad
3, and the two of them combined weigh less than a single hearty book in my
book bag. I look forward to the day when people unwilling or unable to pay the
Apple premium for devices can enjoy the same screen quality. Ubiquitous hi-dpi
tablets is the coolest next high watermark in consumer computing IMO.

------
officemonkey
I enjoy how the author takes the iPad (which has been out since March) and the
Kindle Fire (which hasn't been released yet) and manages to equate them
completely devoid of context.

Here are some things to consider:

1\. One of the form factors touted around for the iPad mini is the 8.9 inch
form factor. No one expects the iPad mini to be the same price as the iPad 3.
So that $200 difference may be a temporary advantage.

2\. The iPad/iPhone app store has been around since 2008. Folks who have
purchased an iPhone and an iPad may have sunk substantial money into buying
apps. That "sunk cost" is just another hurdle any other tablet maker is going
to have to beat.

3\. People talk about how Amazon and Google are "giving away the razor and
selling razor blades" and Apple is in the hardware business. That's quite
simply BS. Apple gets 30% of the gross from the App store, including in-app
purchases. Those 99 cent Angry Birds downloads add up. The app store may not
have been a big profit center in 2009, but we're not in 2009 anymore.

4\. Frankly, I'm excited that Google and Amazon are bringing competition to
the iPad-dominated tablet market. Competition means better prices and better
services. However, I'm not calling a winner to this round until we see what
Apple has up its sleeve.

~~~
lelandbatey
Hey, I see you mention the iPad mini. I've heard nothing about this, and I
thought it was a rumor. Brief internet searches are very unclear, and a lot of
the info seems circular. Could you post the main source for the iPad mini
information?

~~~
officemonkey
I'm surprised you've heard nothing about this. Apparently you don't read
"Daring Fireball." These two articles are vague but well-sourced:

* [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-03/here-comes-nexus-7-...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-03/here-comes-nexus-7-nightmare-the-ipad-mini.html) * [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230414120457750...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304141204577506471913819412.html)

Apple is rumored to be revealing a smaller iPad tablet during an event this
October. Most people are calling it the iPad mini. I'm calling it the reason I
haven't bought a Google Nexus 7.

------
illumin8
This comparison fails to acknowledge that part of the cost of the new Kindle
Fire HD is mandatory ads on the unlock screen and the home screen, which can't
be disabled. You can also safely assume that Amazon is closely tracking your
usage and selling your demographics to advertisers.

In this case, Amazon is taking a risk by selling the Kindle Fire HD at or
close to cost, and hoping to make it up in advertising revenue. This is the
Google model in action.

Personally, my privacy is worth a little more than $200 to me, so no thanks.
Not to mention that the iPad 3 still has a larger screen and several hundred
thousand more apps, which is really difficult to put a price on.

~~~
rogerchucker
Is your privacy risk through these particular ads really worth $200? In other
words, do you think your information would add $200 to the bottomline of
Amazon (or whoever is placing those ads)?

~~~
awakeasleep
You can't relate the privacy risk to 'those particular ads'.

The advertisement you see doesn't mean anything- the risk comes through
complete usage gathered by the advertising networks who bought the ad, and
then resold to partners and affiliates.

The risk some of us worry about is that a data tsunami will eventually push
total awareness of device users to a hostile government or facet of organized
crime.

And while you would have worse things to worry about if the NSA or Google are
compromised, there are millions of advertising affiliates and companies that
share information and go bankrupt, which makes this concern a plausible fear
in my mind

~~~
yajoe
KSO ads aren't served by ad networks, and Amazon prohibits ad networks from
having access to the ads for the very fear you mentioned. The _only_ data
recorded are impressions and ad-specific aggregate usage -- how many times did
people watch the movie trailer? How many people converted? There are no
tracking cookies included with the ads.

Amazon values its customers deeply and letting the third-party networks gather
intel about its customers is a lose-lose proposition. Amazon loses its
competitive advantage for having great data to make great recommendations, and
customers lose their privacy. The ads don't work that way.

------
binarycrusader
No, that's why I bought a Google Nexus 7.

And unlike the Nexus or the iPad, Amazon's devices (well, at least the Kindle
Fire) now comes with ads on the home screen and lock screen by default:

    
    
      http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/09/all-kindle-fires-sold-to-us-customers-will-have-home-screen-ads/
    

It's unclear yet how consumers will be able to opt out of those (that is,
whether it's a simple setting or fee-based).

~~~
Nerdfest
For me, I'd rather be forced to have ads on a lock-screen than be locked into
the Apple 'eco-system', where I have no say on what I'm allowed to install.

------
achompas
This article wears its bias on its sleeve:

 _Really, when we boil it all down, the main thing the iPad has going for it
is the Apple Experience — and is that worth $200?

For existing tablet owners (most of which are iPad owners), it’s hard to say;
they’ve already bought into the app ecosystem, filled up their iCloud, and
sipped the Jobsian Kool-Aid._

I have no horse in this tablet race (waiting for an iPad mini announcement to
choose a 7-8" tablet, and switching from an iPhone to a Nexus phone), but we
know _nothing_ about the Fire HD 8.9. The comparison table in this article
says "Unknown" for battery life and the screen comparison includes the words
"early reports suggest." Whoa, giving Consumer Reports a run for their money!!

I won't compare the app stores (Android is rapidly catching up, with release
for Instagram, Instapaper, and more and more games, while iOS still wins on
volume), but this is a crazy comparison. Comparing a tablet that hasn't
released yet to one that is 7 months old? Aren't there better things to write
about?

------
dbecker
I think reviewers overemphasize trivial differences in product dimensions just
because those things are easy to measure.

They talk about the Fire being thinner, as if a 0.6mm difference in thickness
is going to make one tablet easier to hold.

I also doubt many users care much about a 2.5 ounce weight difference.

Price matters a lot to potential buyers. After that, it's just a question of
whether using the tablet feels pleasant or frustrating.

The dimensions fetish seems to cut across reviews of all sorts of consumer
electronics.

~~~
mrsebastian
For me, the iPad is uncomfortably heavy at times -- especially if I try to
hold it in one hand.

I mean, yes, it seems like splitting hairs -- but at some point, a device goes
from being 'heavy' to 'light'. Same with thickness -- at some point a device
stops feeling 'chunky' and becomes 'lithe'. I just don't know where those
thresholds are :) (but I'm sure that industrial designers put a lot of thought
into it).

~~~
dbecker
I think it's a spectrum rather than a threshold. If one device was half as
thick as another, you'd clearly notice that.

But it's hard to believe there's going to be a major change in user experience
with a half millimeter decrease in thickness.

------
Alcedes
When did 8.9 = 9.7? Is the writer using republican arithmatic? And the answer
is yes, it's worth 200 more for the apps alone. The nexus 7 hardware is nice,
android tablet apps are horrible. But then again, if all you knew was android
then it would be OK.

~~~
gjm11
Downvoted for "republican arithmetic". (I _very strongly_ dislike the
Republican Party and what it has come to stand for over the last few decades,
but the world has enough political arguments already without injecting them
into technical discussions like this one.)

------
jksmith
Sure as hell isn't worth it for Ipad2, IMO. I have both, and actually like the
Fire much better. Love my old Macbook Pro, but I didn't drink the coolaid on
for the ipad. Now when I fly, the ipad stays home, and my Fire goes with me,
neatly tucked inside one of the cargo pockets on my shorts.

The larger issue is though, if Apple is first to market, then they charge
typical Apple premium prices. So it doesn't make any difference whether you're
buying an Ipad2, 3, or whatever. Just be patient and wait for some other pad
to come out which is generally just as functional, but will usually always be
cheaper.

------
mtgx
Amazon is going to commoditize the entire tablet market, simply because they
don't care about making profits on hardware, while everyone else, including
Apple, does.

Microsoft is going to feel this as well, as manufacturers won't be very happy
selling $200-$300 tablets with $100 ($200 for enterprise versions) Windows
licenses. The tablet market is going to be commoditezed so much faster than
the PC market. Hopefully, Amazon launches a smartphone with a similar strategy
as well.

Intel will invariably be hurt by this, too, as people move to much cheaper,
yet capable devices. Even if they succeed entering the tablet market with
their Atom chips, they'll be be forced to have very competitive prices with
ARM chips. So instead of selling $200 chips for ultrabooks and PC's, they'll
be selling $20 chips. There's no way they can make it up in volume to keep or
increase their current revenues and profits.

~~~
greedo
And Amazon will always trail in terms of innovation, because selling things at
a loss doesn't give you much room to spend on R&D.

And your view of history is skewed; IBM released the PC (5150) in 1981. Compaq
shipped the first compatible in 1982, and by 1985 the PC market was thoroughly
commoditized.

Jump to the iPad's release in 2010. It's been 2 1/2 years, and still no signs
of the tablet market being commoditized. It's still an iPad market, and not a
tablet market.

~~~
jerf
Innovation doesn't run forever. What's left to innovate on a tablet's
hardware? Non-zero, but it's not like next year Apple's going to equip them
with little robotic arms and legs or anything. There's more room for
innovation in the laptop market, and that's a market that hasn't been driven
by very much "innovation" for a long time.

Innovation isn't a magic word you can just wave around like a mantra, it has
to concretize into something real if it's going to have any effect. There is,
quite literally, not much room left for tablet innovation.

~~~
greedo
Wow. I guess I disagree with you about the innovation in the laptop market. I
showed my wife the MacBook Air yesterday, and she was amazed at how different
it was from the stuff she was used to.

And your argument about "what's left to innovate on a tablet's hardware" is
also pretty shortsighted. I'm sure that you had the foresight to predict the
iPad?

Change and innovation aren't magic. But saying that there's no more room for
innovation has been proven wrong, time and time again.

~~~
jerf
My saying it was "non-zero" is an important part of my point. It isn't zero.
But it isn't going to be the driver of the market anymore. Just as your
MacBook Air is merely "an interesting offering" and not an "OMG this rewrites
everything!". (It was hyped that way at the time but I don't think it worked.
The iPhone killed everything that came before it. The Air certainly did not;
laptops are alive and well.)

"Trailing in innovation" to grab market share is probably a very good move at
this point.

I know it's chic to talk a lot about innovation, but take a serious look
around yourself and what you'll find surrounding you on all sides are markets
of incremental improvements, not "innovation"-driven markets. I think the
tablet market is here now, or very nearly.

~~~
greedo
I guess we have to disagree about the Air. I don't think it revolutionized
computing, but it was a huge shift for notebooks.

And grabbing market share with no foreseeable plan for decent profits seems
hard to sell, but Wall St. seems to love Amazon.

~~~
jerf
Of course Amazon has a plan for profits. They've all but spelled it out, sell
the hardware to sell the services. "They don't have a plan" != "I don't think
their plan will work", or whatever else you've got on the right side of that
!=.

~~~
greedo
I meant in more general terms for Amazon. Their margins are incredibly low,
their P/E ratio is way out of whack, and they seem to epitomize the old "we'll
make it up on volume" angle that proved so helpful in 2000.

Maybe they just want to be like a grocery chain that ekes out a 1-3% margin.
But if that's the case, Wall St. won't be happy. Wall St. expects outsized
profits based on their P/E ratio.

------
greenmountin
I'm glad the zines are enjoying writing about this $200 difference. I'm sure
they won't mind writing about how it disappeared when the mini is finally
launched. Apple can charge whatever it wants for the new ipad until the HD
ships, and then $(PriceHD) + $50 indefinitely.

Not to mention, there are already hands-on reviews rolling in about how laggy
the new kindles are.

~~~
css771
Link to some of these reviews?

~~~
greenmountin
[http://gizmodo.com/5941095/kindle-fire-hd-hands-on-pretty-
im...](http://gizmodo.com/5941095/kindle-fire-hd-hands-on-pretty-
impressivefor-the-price)

[http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/06/tech/gaming-gadgets/kindle-
dem...](http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/06/tech/gaming-gadgets/kindle-
demos/index.html)

[http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/09/06/hands-on-and-
initial...](http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/09/06/hands-on-and-initial-
thoughts-on-the-7-inch-kindle-fire-hd-versus-the-nexus-7/)

------
Steko
"with the iPad 3 possibly having a slight edge on graphics performance"

Here's how the OMAP 4470 actually compares to the A5X in the iPad "3":

[http://www.anandtech.com/show/6158/the-archos-101-xs-
review/...](http://www.anandtech.com/show/6158/the-archos-101-xs-review/3)

tl;dc: beaten by iPad 2 on many benchmarks. A5X >> A5 >= OMAP 4470 > Tegra 3

------
cloudwalking
This has always bothered me: What use are stereo speakers, when the speakers
are _closer together than your ears?_

The same feature is advertised on a lot of phones too, and I just don't get
it. Who cares if two speakers half an inch apart are stereo, they're so close
together they're always going to sound mono anyways.

~~~
berdon
I'm pretty sure our mind is capable of, subconsciously, differentiating
between two noises a few inches apart.

~~~
MattRogish
Perhaps. I haven't been able to find any articles on stereo separation /
minimum distances but the generally accepted criteria (and you can test this
at home with a hi-fi) is that you and the L/R speakers should form an
equilateral triangle for "best sound". (see
[http://www.linkwitzlab.com/accurate%20stereo%20performance.h...](http://www.linkwitzlab.com/accurate%20stereo%20performance.htm))

Anyway, I agree with the OP that stereo speakers in a device so small,
situated so far away from you, is likely not to produce much of the intended
effect, unless the intention is featuritis.

------
cek
This is really about asymmetric competition. @asymco does a great job
analyzing this; that Apple, Google, Microsoft, and Amazon, while competitors
have fundamentally different business models.

Even if these companies had similar business models to Apple, they would be
insane to try to complete with Apple on Apple's terms. This is why Microsoft
is not really becoming a hardware company[1] and why Amazon is focusing on
'services' (what I call 'experiences')[2].

[1] [http://ceklog.kindel.com/2012/07/25/a-mouse-and-keyboard-
don...](http://ceklog.kindel.com/2012/07/25/a-mouse-and-keyboard-dont-make-a-
hardware-company/)

[2] [http://ceklog.kindel.com/2012/06/07/wanna-compete-with-
apple...](http://ceklog.kindel.com/2012/06/07/wanna-compete-with-apple-focus-
on-experiences/)

------
adaml_623
With a device lifetime of say 1.5 years you could turn that $200 into $0.50
per day.

I'd definitely pay that for technology that didn't annoy me.

(Disclaimer: most technology annoys me but that's because of the lack of
flying cars, etc and me being generally cantankerous)

------
gothy
I guess it is. Not for everybody though.

I've played a bit with the initial Fire tablet and I was really surprised with
overall UX. Some Chinese "noname" tablets felt like a better option than
"this".

Apple has really high standards in producing their products and user
experience from store to watching a movie on iPad. Amazon is good at providing
services, but they fail at the overall UX. Maybe that's going to change, maybe
HD 8.9 is a huge step forward(i just don't know yet). But for me, the overall
experience really matter much more than a price badge on a box. IMHO.

------
greedo
Let's wait until the hardware is shipped before we compare this to much with
stuff you can purchase today. It's easy to "Surface" with a new product and
tout it as the best thing since sliced bread.

But all the sites that depend on linkbaiting will have a field day for a few
weeks.

------
droob
Any review that includes a spec comparison matrix loses a lot of its
credibility, in my book.

------
jjtheblunt
Yes, it is.

------
rogerchucker
If I am able to produce much more content on iPad compared to the Kindle Fire
HD, then I would answer "yes".

