
2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test - ethana
http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-tesla-model-s-drive-unit-iv-the-milling.html
======
rgbrenner
That's great that the drive unit was covered under warranty.. that was Edmunds
4th drive unit in 30,000 miles. Of course, once it hits 50k miles, the
warranty period is over, and it's $15000 to replace it.

MotorTrend reported the same problem.. they've already had it replaced twice.

[http://seekingalpha.com/article/2312325-tesla-may-have-a-
hug...](http://seekingalpha.com/article/2312325-tesla-may-have-a-huge-
unfunded-warranty-problem-due-to-defective-drivetrains?app=1&uprof=45&dr=1)

~~~
baddox
Wow. I've never had a vehicle worth more than $15,000. That's one expensive
part.

~~~
grecy
Your vehicles were very likely worth more than $15,000 when new. You've just
never had a new vehicle.

Also, engine replacements on new gasoline vehicles run around $10k.

~~~
sliverstorm
True, but when was the last time you heard about a car that needed a whole new
engine every 7k miles?

It's an interesting question actually, are Tesla motors only really
serviceable as a unit? That could be bad news. A new gasoline engine might be
$10k, but 99% of the time you just replace a belt or a pulley or a seal, or
take off the top and do some machining for a few thousand.

~~~
toomuchtodo
The electric drive motor is about the size of a watermelon and weighs ~70lbs.
Its easier to pull it and swap in a new one than to tear it down on-site.

~~~
hueving
A house with mold is easier to burn down and rebuild rather than completely
gut it out. That doesn't mean that's the correct decision.

~~~
blub
Are we talking about a specific type of mold? What makes it so difficult to
get rid of?

~~~
sliverstorm
Black mold. It gets everywhere, and it is pretty dangerous to humans so you
have to be sure you get it all.

------
timdorr
I do believe these results are an outlier.

I've had my Model S since December 2012 (one of the first production models in
the state of Georgia) and have had no major issues with it. I've only ever had
proactive maintenance (12v battery system replacement, coolant pump upgrade,
and improved sealant on the sunroof), all of which I haven't paid a dime for.
They even provided loaner vehicles while they worked on it. I've driven it up
and down the East Coast and a 260 mile straight shot from Atlanta to Savannah.

I've heard similar stories from most other owners. It is a tremendously easy
car to own, as you barely have to do any work on it. Yes, cases like this will
happen. But no different from any other car out there.

~~~
grecy
Out of curiosity, why does it have a 12v battery (& system) ? I always assumed
it didn't have one, and that accessories would be powered off the "big"
battery.

~~~
ddeck
This is what annoys me about my Prius.

It has a large, high voltage battery that could easily be stepped down (and in
fact is, since it charges the 12V battery), and yet a separate 12V battery is
required to power the electronics to start the car.

Since the 12V battery is only used to power the electronics (the high volatage
battery powers the starter motor), it is very small and consequently, drains
quickly (a few weeks) if the car is not in use. I don't drive much and
regularly find it dead when I try to drive somewhere.

The upside of it only being required to power the electronics is that I can
(and regularly do) jump start it with a NiMH remote control car battery.

I understand that if the high voltage battery goes flat in a Prius, you're
somewhat screwed, which is perhaps why they don't allow it to power the
electronics for starting, but it's still a pain.

Disclaimer: this is an older Prius, newer models may be different

~~~
VLM
Nobody got the answer even remotely correct WRT the EE issues.

Battery bulk current handling capacity is provided by bulk lead in the plates
and copper wires. Its extremely cheap to build a lead acid battery that can
momentarily squirt out a thousand (or so) amps to start an engine on a cold
winter night. Maybe $100 or so.

Unfortunately power converters / supplies of all sorts scale at a higher than
polynomial rate. So although a 20 amp smart battery charger might only be $50,
a similar power converter capable of 1000 amps peak starting currents might be
way over $2000. Thats about 10KW and thats about the right price for non-
industrial non-automotive inverter hardware so its probably higher cost.

The total system cost to provide momentary 1000 amp starting currents is
minimized by a $50 charger and a $100 battery rather than a $2000+ inverter.

My wife has one and I'm slightly jealous, I know ham radio guys who've spliced
in inverters to run their entire house off the prius, using it as a stationary
generator basically. There have been articles in QST magazine. Anyway one
issue they and everyone else runs into is the primary battery is physically
disconnected from the world until the boot up self tests pass. Leakage current
to chassis, stuff like that. Until the tests pass, power is not connected by
the giant relay. So its chicken and the egg time, where how do you get enough
power to run the self tests of the electrical system if the primary battery
isn't connected until after all the tests pass? So you need a secondary
battery thats never physically disconnected, the 12V lead acid traditional
batt.

Now an excellent firmware question is why not have the firmware self test and
partial boot the car every 6 hours to top off the 12 volt battery for 5
minutes? Probably some mechanic who thinks the car is off will manage to set
it on fire by not being careful while replacing the battery or something like
that. "Oh of course the main power cables are powered down, the whole car is
powered down... err... whoomph" and then you need a new car and mechanic.

A design change to connect the 12V to the primary battery would then mean
routing even more junk thru the primary battery compartment. There really is
no perfect solution.

(Have to reply to mikeash as an edit. Yes I researched this after your comment
and you are correct and MG1 is powered from the HV not the 12V to start, I did
not know that. I knew it charged the HV and helped out at full throttle, along
with MG2 that does "most of the work".

Anyway the TLDR summary still stands, from a scaling perspective there is an
economic crossover point at a surprisingly low current, at least around the
90s's to 00's when this was designed, where its much cheaper to use a
battery/charger than a really beefy inverter above a certain (medium-ish)
current level. Someday that'll probably change as semiconductors advance and
that crossover point becomes 50 kiloamps or something.)

~~~
ddeck
You might be interested in the following post, which I found while researching
which battery to buy to jump start mine:

[http://irobin.org/prius/startup/startup.html](http://irobin.org/prius/startup/startup.html)

The required 12V startup current for a Prius turns out to be surprisingly low.
The author measures it for a 2005 model directly at around 30 amp (with one
test showing a brief spike to 60 amp).

Based on this, I bought a pack of 10 5Ah sub C NiMH batteries for jump
starting (unfortunately there is no outlet in my car park for a trickle
charger).

------
jfb
The most interesting thing about this to me is how similar it is to other
long-term road test articles -- IOW, how well Tesla has built a car that
conforms to people's conceptions about how cars should operate. That's
extraordinarily impressive; to me, it's more impressive than the (admittedly
impressive) technology in the cars themselves.

I'm not a fan of the Musk/Tony Stark schtick, or of SpaceX, or the
hagiographic treatment he receives from the technical press, but I am a fan of
Tesla as a carmaker.

~~~
bagels
Most long term tests of 1 year/30,000 miles have multiple drivetrain failures?

~~~
sliverstorm
I think your parent is saying "It is a victory that Edmunds is conducting a
road test just like with any other car".

~~~
jfb
Exactly.

~~~
gress
That seems a little easy-going. Yes, it's good that an electic car is being
tested alongside other cars, but it seems as though we have moved beyond that
point. In particular Tesla is rightly showing no humility about their cars.

------
zaroth
First, it sounds like Tesla service is pretty great. All that work at $0 cost,
done in 1.5 days, is pretty incredible. Good maintenance should bring a
positive ROI.

Yes, there's a downside, which is out-of-warranty cost, and ultimately resale
value. It's both a science experience we are funding here, and a public
company. I would love to have seen some hard numbers from the stated
financials about warranty costs, and expected future warranty costs.

I think it's a good question to ask -- is the longer term service cost of the
car understood? Maybe we're just starting to get to that point, but I'm not
sure the data is really out there. I do expect of any company that Tesla would
be the best at predicting their long-term performance and costs.

It's one thing if the car isn't perfect, it's another if it becomes a
maintenance nightmare. That could happen only outside of warranty, and not
even directly impact their expenses, but it ultimately does impact sales. I
would expect if there's an issue that Musk has discussed it at length already.
This clearly isn't new.

I don't like the scaremongering about the cost of this repair. Did they even
ask Tesla how much the repair would cost, and they refused to answer? It
certainly doesn't say that they even asked the cost. I doubt it would matter,
but I'm sure there's a law that they have to disclose the retail cost of the
repair.

I know car reviews rarely quote the CEO, but for this specific issue of drive
train, I think it's worth getting a quote from the company in the article.

~~~
mikeash
Since the car was under warranty, why is $0 cost so great? Isn't that
completely standard for warranty work?

------
marvin
I'm guessing these quality issues are caused by the massive amount of fatigue
and overtime at both the Tesla Design Studio and the Fremont factory. Tesla
employees work 6 days a week, and we're not talking 7-hour days here. So they
are able to polish the product really well, but the fatigue shows up in the
tiny details that are rushed, leading to long-term quality control issues.

Or it could be just growing pains, I suppose. But I've always been critical of
Tesla's (and others') reckless attitude towards excessively long hours.

------
bicknergseng
So it seems to me like there isn't enough raw data about the auto industry
available to consumers. What are the odds of having a lemon Model S like
Edmunds' vs the odds of having a GM that drives itself into a tree, for
example? I'd obviously rather have to replace parts than have my accelerator
go nuts, but is there any real source of data outside of anecdotal evidence
via Consumer Reports or relative outliers from subpoenas in the case of Toyota
and GM?

------
gambiting
>>We decided to pass on the annual service

It's interesting - I bought a brand new Nissan Qashqai recently, and I HAVE to
do an annual inspection to keep the warranty, regardless of the condition of
the car. Basically after a year they will look at it, say "yep, it still
works" and charge me $300 to stamp my warranty booklet.

------
josefresco
"We decided to pass on the annual service. The alignment had already been
performed when we installed the new tires. System monitoring? We were just
there in May when Tesla took care of a laundry list of items. Plus, they were
already installing the firmware upgrade as part of the "Courtesy Inspection."
Hardware upgrade? Any critical part should be (and was) covered under
warranty. More on that later. So the only thing we were missing out on was the
AC filters and the wiper blades, not worth $600."

I love how they (and most) rationalize skipping this service (aka maintenance
is for suckers). The more time a trained mechanic spends under, in, on and
thinking about your car the better. Especially when it's a techno-feast such
as the Model S.

------
cc439
Oof, I thought resale value on Jaguars was bad ($70k to $15k in 5 years) but
these are basically write-offs after the warranty expires.

It's a grand experiment but I don't think the market for $70k assets that lose
90% of their value in 5 years is going to be too hot.

~~~
crdb
Actually, Singapore has proven it can be:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement)

The right to own a car for only 10 years has been bid up to about that. You
can find cars with COE with less than 5 years remaining, that are still worth
multiples of their non-Singaporean value. People will get into debt to drive a
car.

~~~
ddeck
I'm not sure what comparison you're trying to draw.

Singapore has shown that restricting the supply of vehicles will drive the
price higher. Yes, owning a vehicle is extremely expensive in Singapore and
many in that economy are willing to pay the price (by definition since it's an
auction based system).

I believe your parent was pointing out that the depreciation of the Tesla
appears to compare very poorly with alternative vehicles, and potential buyers
are unlikely to choose such an expensive option when there are far cheaper
alternatives available. Singaporeans have no alternative.

~~~
crdb
Well, it was a bit tongue in cheek, but I was specifically answering: "I don't
think the market for $70k assets that lose 90% of their value in 5 years is
going to be too hot". The COE loses 100% of its value in 10 years, but you
still find plenty of buyers.

Singaporeans have the alternative of not owning a car - both public transport
and taxis are highly available, cheap and very pleasant to use. If you see a
car as merely a means of transport in exchange for economic value, it makes no
sense to own one at current market prices (it's cheaper to take a cab every
day, for example - even if you live near the airport and work in CBD, a 15km
commute, that's $40/day or $80,000/10 years). Why do some Singaporeans take
out 30 year mortgages for the right to drive an average sedan for 10 years?

What the COE taught me is the value of intangibles like status boost and the
pleasure of driving for its own sake. This is more relevant to Tesla's target
demographic than the considerations of the average second hand Toyota Corolla
buyer (closer to where I would fit in, and why I'll never own a car in
Singapore, no matter my net worth).

------
bengoodger
The lemon law is not quite as cut and dried as the author of this article
states. If you're not happy with your car you should not make this judgment
for yourself. Consult an attorney.

You can be outside the 18k miles but if the problems began inside the first
18k miles, you qualify. I have personally had a car bought back a couple of
months ago. After rejecting the manufacturers' initial offer of monetary
compensation and sending a letter to the company on attorney letterhead, the
mfr immediately folded and offered to buy it back for the full amount required
by the CA lemon law.

------
tdiggity
FWIW - I've done 18,000 miles in 1.5 years - 0 reliability issues, so far.

------
superJoy
One car isn't enough to form a true conclusion, but what about 76? [1] This
poll is biased in the sense that "0" isn't an option; still, it's an alarming
amount of failed drive units. If this is a real problem, it won't scale---they
can't keep replacing these things under warranty.

[1] [http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/29834-Drive-
Un...](http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/29834-Drive-Unit-
Replacement-Poll)

~~~
puzzlingcaptcha
There is also a sampling bias, people who have experienced problems with the
car are more likely to hang around in online forums trying to share their
experience.

~~~
jarek
So the rate the problem is being reported at should be comparable to other
premium cars? How does it compare with BMW, an enthusiast brand with high
online engagement, many unofficial forums and so on? Audi?

------
noonespecial
I'm going to go ahead and guess here that Tesla is going to have to give up on
launching the 4,785 pound Model S to 60 mph in 4.2 seconds. There might not be
a possible gearbox that can do that for the life of the car and fit the
cost/size constraints of a sedan.

Another case of "just because its possible doesn't mean you should". It will
be fixed with 3 lines of code (to create a gear friendly torque curve) and a
whole lot of PR to explain it.

~~~
Tloewald
Gearbox?

~~~
noonespecial
Teslas have a single speed gearbox that reduces the electric motor down
9.7-something to 1. This is likely the source of the "milling" noise. These
gears degrade rapidly at the insane torque levels of an electric motor
starting full blast from stop. Something they would never face from their ICE
brethren.

~~~
scott_karana
Seems like something that could be fixed by a software update.

Static friction is the same in equivalent spec'd ICEs, so if the Tesla is
_over_ torquing, wouldn't they be able to back off on wattage for a few ms
when starting out, and retain virtually the same accelerations?

~~~
seanflyon
There are not a lot of equivalent spec'd ICE vehicles.

~~~
scott_karana
The BMW 550i[1] has very similar size, peak power, and peak torque ratings
compared to the Tesla[2][3], so let's use that as a comparison.

Obviously, torque availability at 0 rpm with a flat curve is the notable
difference, but remember that launch control in the BMW will also occur at
peak power RPMs with a clutch or torque converter taking up the difference in
road "RPMs", so it's not that dissimilar a comparison at least in regard to
the strength of gearboxes, half-shafts, differentials, axles, CV joints, et
cetera. (Consider too that the BMW has changeable gears, not a fixed ratio;
the complexity _should_ give Tesla a nod for transmission strength)

    
    
      BMW 550i (base) vs Tesla Model S P85
      Cost:  $63,900 vs $87,070
      Curb Weight: 4277 vs 4647 lbs
      Peak Power: 445 vs 416
      Peak Torque: 480 vs 443 lb-ft
      0-60 mph: 4.5 vs 4.2 seconds
      Top Speed: 130 mph for both
    

So I think my point stands; I suspect a software update in the Tesla could
likely alleviate strain to the gearbox, without much tangible sacrifice in
specs.

I'm curious what "to the wheel" power looks like after the final differential
ratio, but have to leave :)

1
[http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2014/5/550iS...](http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2014/5/550iSedan/Features_and_Specs/550iSedanSpecifications.aspx)

2
[http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs](http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs)

3
[http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/battery](http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/battery)

~~~
seanflyon
Thanks for the info. I think we can conclude that BMW is better at mass
producing transmissions than Tesla. The BMW is only slightly lighter and
slower to accelerate.

------
josefresco
Overall the Tesla seems like a Range Rover (owned one, wife worked at
dealership). Amazing technical features, but with all that bleeding edge
technology comes high maintenance needs. Don't get me wrong, Range Rovers are
amazing vehicles to own, but you have to accept that you'll be using that
loner-Rover a handful of times each year.

------
outworlder
When you skip annual maintenance of your car, you don't have much to complain
about when it breaks.

That is why it should be _inspected_ , to catch problems before they become
serious.

~~~
cpwright
This kind of stuff is actually what is less likely to make me purchase a
Tesla. If it becomes common for these kinds of failures, it isn't a risk that
I want to have.

What is magic about annual maintenance? In my gasoline car, I change the oil
around every 7500 miles (when the car tells me) and rotate the tires at the
same time. Total cost about $50 a year. Brakes when they need it for around
$200, and when I need it four tires for a little under $1000. Throw in a
yearly emissions and safety inspection for $37.

Most gasoline cars will have a 5/60, or 10/100 powertrain warranty. But even
outside of warranty, I know I am not going to have to pay $15,000 to fix it.
I'm also not stuck going to the manufacturer, price shopping is possible and
I'm sure would save money over a dealership.

------
ck2
That car has been driven 30,000 miles in ONE year.

How would a gas car do with that kind of non-stop driving?

~~~
Spooky23
Fine. My dad used to put 150k miles on a mid 90s Ford Escort annually. The car
was taken out by a deer at 480k and totaled.

~~~
codezero
That almost sounds impossible. Do you mind me asking what he did, driving for
so many hours a day? At 150k a year, that amounts to over 410 miles a day,
which is 6-10 hours of driving at normal speeds, quite a feat!

~~~
prawn
Courier of some sort? Seven days a week, 80 km/h still makes for 8+ hours/day
which is pretty insane.

Or a 4-hour each way commute for a Mon-Fri work week. Or 3 hours each way for
seven days a week at 110km. That'd be soul destroying.

~~~
ghshephard
I have a co-worker who has a 4 day a week - 112 mile commute into work
(Sacramento into Redwood City) - by avoiding rush hour he does it in a little
over 2 hours each way, he puts almost 50,000 miles/year onto his vehicle. I
thought _that_ was the most insane soul crushing thing I had ever heard of.

~~~
codezero
Why does your co-worker do that? Redwood City, or even areas in the south bay
are reasonably affordable, especially if you adjust for the cost of fuel and
attrition from that commute.

~~~
ghshephard
He owns a house there, has family ties there, etc...

One thing I've noticed about many of my colleagues in California - when they
get a new job, they don't move. Indeed, I've actually had colleagues who've
_changed_ the company they work at to reduce their commute, rather than just
moving.

~~~
fps
That seems odd to you? In the US, most people don't move around that much.
This is certainly the case for people with families. I've been in the same
house for 8 years and am in the process of moving across town - it's a multi-
year process that's extremely personally taxing for my entire family, and
we're only moving 2 miles away. I've had 5 jobs in the time I've lived in my
current house, and my commute has ranged from 15 minutes (by car) to my
current 1.25 hours (by train/bike), depending on the job. A major factor of
choosing where I'm going to work is what it will do to my daily commute. I
wouldn't consider moving for literally any job, but I wouldn't hesitate to
change jobs so I could move.

~~~
ghshephard
As a family, perhaps. As a single person - I want a commute of 5 minutes or
less, and when I get a new job - I always move. In the last 8 years I've lived
in seven places - one of which was a Condo that I owned / sold.

I think the Prop13 issue explains why most home owners can no longer sell
their homes.

