
Volkswagen Reaches Deal in U.S. Over Emissions Scandal - ValG
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/business/international/volkswagen-emissions-settlement.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
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getpost
When the news of VW emissions fraud first broke, I thought, "corporate death
penalty!" That'll teach 'em. Not playing by the rules on an industrial scale
has the consequence that you don't get to participate in our economy at all.

Of course, the corporate death penalty would only amplify and accelerate the
hardship of hundreds of thousands of "innocent" employees and others in the VW
ecosystem.

Punishment doesn't work. We already know VW management doesn't feel
responsible; they blame it on 'low-level' people. Does anybody seriously think
VW or GM won't do this kind of thing again?

As a society, we can't allow crimes of this magnitude to occur in the first
place. What do we need to change so things like this don't happen?

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jeffdavis
Transparency. Transparent accounting makes sure financial problems are caught
before they snowball. Transparent engineering -- including code -- will
prevent this kind of engineering fraud.

(That doesn't necessarily mean Free Software, but certainly auditable by the
public and regulators.)

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jamisteven
I wonder how much they will be offering people? I own a 2011 Golf TDI, and
NADA is showing suggested retail as like 11.5k, which is 2k less than I
purchased it for used from a private seller about a year ago, and at the time,
nada private sale was at like 14k. If VW wants to give people full retail as
of the current market value (ie: after the emissions scandal came to light and
value decreased), then this will be quite the ripoff. I would rather take the
initial 5k offered to owners in the first proposal for compensation.

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pkulak
My guess is that there will be large lookup charts with prices for every
year/car/mileage combination designed to make people like yourself carefully
consider weather they want the 5 grand or the buyout.

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ams6110
If it were me I'd keep the car as it came and enjoy the better performance.

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toomuchtodo
If your state performs emissions testing, they could deny you a tag renewal if
the vehicle fails. You'd need the "fixed" ECU firmware to drive the vehicle on
public roads.

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mikeash
Owners will have the option to get the cars fixed or have VW buy them back.

The article says that the estimated cost of buybacks is $7 billion. With
480,000 cars in play, that's an average of $14,000. Clearly they're accounting
for depreciation here. I wonder if they're accounting for the dive in price
I'm sure these cars have had in the secondary market since the scandal broke.

From what's said here, it's hard to tell if the owners will be screwed over or
not.

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stuart78
I'm an owner, and while the info is not complete yet, I like where its
heading. Honestly, I just want a different car, and not to be punished
financially for their behavior. I'll take a buyout and if there's cash above
the BB value, I'll be happier still.

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toomuchtodo
What vehicle would you replace your VW with? (simply curious)

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stuart78
This is the conundrum. I'm used to the sight of 45mpg on my dashboard. Passat
TDI was kind of my perfect car, so I really don't know what I'll go for next.

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S_A_P
VW screwed up- BADLY. But I lost interest as soon as I saw the picture of
Joyce the protestor. Good grief, a TDI still gets way better gas mileage and
is probably still cleaner than an equivalent gasoline car. I would totally buy
one with cash on the hood today. I think that some perspective is needed here.
Let existing cars carry on, make VW fix as well as possible and give them
greater scrutiny until trust is earned back.

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jeffdavis
Why do you say it's cleaner than a gasoline car?

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jakelarkin
the engine software update, applied in the recall last year, by itself made
the cars pass emission thresholds in other countries, which had a lower bar
than US. I wonder if VW's plan will be to buy back the cars and resell them in
Europe or Latin America.

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timmins
I read yesterday, caveat: while most news was still rumored, that VW would not
be permitted to resell the vehicles.

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riprowan
Surely they can resell them outside the EPAs jurisdiction.

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tzs
VW won't be doing a buyback because they simply decided on their own to do so.
It will be part of a deal with the US to settle the case. If the terms include
a resale prohibition, VW will have to honor that if they want to keep the case
settled.

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throwawayjfkdls
There was a survey that went out to VW owners a while ago trying to gauge
interest on different deals. The options presented were, in exchange for
surrendering your car at a dealership, you'd get:

a) value of the car in Sept 2015 + 20%

b) value of the car in Sept 2015 + 30%

c) a replacement of your car - same model, same specs, same features, same
color, but the 2016 model. Lease/loan payments would stay the same and you'd
basically just get a newer replacement.

They specifically noted that the value would be determined by using a
reputable car value estimation reference, so it won't just be some random
lookup table that they've pulled out of thin air. Unfortunately, I don't see
an easy way to look up historical values from KBB (haven't checked NADA), so I
really don't know what the value of my Jetta was in Sept.

None of those things were officially from VW, but the survey was supposed to
be somewhat confidential, so I can only imagine that the survey was contracted
by VW.

Again: THIS IS UNOFFICIAL INFORMATION AND SHOULD NOT BE RELIED ON.

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vonmoltke
Odd. I, owner of a 2014 Passat TDI, never received any such survey.

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emdd
I have a 2013, and I didn't see one either.

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MBlume
VW should be sending a check to everyone who lived or worked near a freeway
during the time these cars were on the road.

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Shivetya
While I am all for a substantial fine I will be very disappointed if the fine
exceeds that given GM for their ignition key recall. There were thirty million
plus cars in that recall for an issue known over decade, an issue which
directly lead to death, and they got off for less than a billion.

While some might claim "pollution" from the TDIs is killing people the link is
not direct and negligible in the big picture when you look at volumes. Frankly
I think VW should be blocked from selling any TDI they have in stock, new or
used and buy back them all. But a separate fine beyond that? Again, not if
exceeds the fine giving GM which by the way also topped Toyota's fine for
unintended acceleration which could not even be proven.

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YokoZar
How is vehicle pollution "negligible"? The effects of pollution are quite
measurable and we have pretty good estimates of how many people it kills in
aggregate. It's entirely possible for pollution to kill vastly more people
than a mechanical fault, albeit it's harder to point at them individually.

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guscost
Well that's a big problem for any lawsuit, the uncertainty inherent in
estimating this kind of hazard makes it much harder to prove that someone has
been harmed in a legally sound manner. Each side can can get pretty much
whatever conclusions they want by paying the right experts.

And in the absence of proof our court system is biased in favor of defendants
(that's not exactly relevant to negotiations over this fine however since the
EPA only has to prove that they broke regulations).

I'd guess that NOx can be a meaningful hazard in certain places with lots of
cars and/or special geography (LA County for example) but almost nowhere else.
I can't prove that hypothesis of course.

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mikeyouse
Just a quick note, but picking LA County to minimize the impact of something
isn't very useful.. LA County has a higher population than 43 _states_.

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guscost
What I'm saying is that any analysis is subject to a great deal of
uncertainty, not that the impact is minimal.

The guess is just for fun. Do you disagree that the effect of NOx probably
varies greatly between LA County and any place without the same amount of
traffic or special geography? You're welcome to make your own guess for the
purpose of discussion.

