
Ask HN: Do I need to go to college? - advicethrowaway
I&#x27;m a senior in high school and am deciding between attending UT Austin for CompSci or skipping that and moving to San Francisco to work at a startup.<p>I have about 3-4 years experience in web development, and 1-2 years Android development. I have worked at four tech companies. I&#x27;m currently paid 31k as a front-end web developer at medium sized company while being the lead Android developer for an established startup on the side.<p>I have a pretty well fleshed out github account and a long list of completed side projects.<p>I don&#x27;t particularly enjoy school nor debt, and I&#x27;m not convinced a Computer Science degree would be fully utilized in a career in web and android development.<p>Will startups take a fresh high school grad seriously?
Is it a mistake to not go to college despite my experience?<p>What would you do?<p>EDIT:<p>Thanks for the advice, everyone. I really appreciate it.<p>A few follow up questions:<p>With my qualifications, how likely is it that I could land an internship in San Francisco this coming summer?<p>I&#x27;m currently learning many new (to me) technologies, ramping up my open source activity, and writing a blog. Is there anything else I should to do increase my chances?
======
mynewwork
Go to school. You'll have an uphill battle for the rest of your life if you
don't. Your resume will always be viewed with a bit of suspicion if you don't
have a degree, you'll be expected to do more to prove there aren't gaps in
your self-education. That's if anyone looks are your resume at all, many
places HR won't bother without the degree. A github profile and a network of
people who know your skills are both huge assets to finding work, but the lack
of degree will always cause difficulties.

Plus, right now you're doing web and android dev, but maybe you'll take a
class that will open your eyes to other areas. Maybe you'll find out you love
compilers or computer vision or parallel computation.

There are a lot of people on HN who love to be contrarian or want to beat the
system by proving they could accomplish X without a formal education which
they believe is more about credentials than actual education. But the truth
is, not having the degree is just going to make your life a lot harder, plus
you might miss out on learning things you wouldn't self-study.

~~~
ignostic
> _" you might miss out on learning things you wouldn't self-study."_

This is true: it would be wise to be honest with yourself on this point. I've
personally read more textbooks since graduating than I did in college; it's
not impossible, but it is very very hard to stay focused in self-study.

~~~
advicethrowaway
I completely agree. I know that I won't be able to self-teach everything that
I would learn in college.

~~~
ajpos
This is maybe not true given the right parameters. Typically, people "self-
study" on a whim. Probably in the evenings or on weekends. They go for about
30 minutes and then quit, saying, "I feel good about this, I'm going to study
like this 3x a week."

And then they utterly faily, because self-study is not one of their pre-
established habits.

If you make a schedule mimicking a college curriculum (during the weekday,
with a lunch hour, 15 minute breaks, etc) like you would with an actual class,
and use the "tuition money" to pay instead for a good desk with ample room for
notes and a solid reading light, then I bet almost anyone could do a college
education on their own.

It's all mental, and in my experience, mindsets can be changed with the right
training. It's like learning to brush your teeth, except you're an adult now.

~~~
keiferski
The bigger point though is that college isn't all mental. If you went through
college hunched over a desk studying, and doing nothing else, then sure, you
can replicate that at home.

------
jgg
Crazy advice: go to college for something harder/more challenging than CS, and
then use that to complement your programming skill later.

CS was mostly a waste of time for me. I worked through a lot of SICP in
highschool and was teaching myself Haskell after learning a lot of web
development stuff.

However, I don't regret the formal mathematics classes that I've taken, as
well as some interesting electives (like an algebra/number theory course that
focused on nothing but using and attacking RSA, which was a joint CS/Math
course). Taking Algorithms was good for me too, even if I could already hack
on harder stuff than my classmates. So, I major in something other than CS.

Keep in mind that you also might decide that you hate working in programming
altogether, as I did, so being a generalist might be a good idea. Major in
math, philosophy or a foriegn language (or whatever else interests you).
You'll learn, have a possible back-up and escape with a degree, if you need
one.

I think college has become diluted to some degree (I rail against it a lot,
even moreso now that my old university did away with English 101 for a lot of
majors because it's "too hard"), but you can always challenge yourself. I
think people with a passion always can outdo their degrees, especially in CS,
but I think viewing your life as: "waste my time at college" xor "go live in
the valley" is a really bad idea at this point.

------
ignostic
It depends on your goals - no one can give you advice on the path you should
take if they don't know your destination.

Do you want to be an entrepreneur? Do you want to build a product and company,
work for startups, or work in enterprise software development?

If you want to work in big business (a decent and potentially low-stress path
if you want a good wage, despite what people here might tell you) you should
probably go to college. If you don't know, you should probably go to college.
If you know you

I did go to college, and I'm glad I have a significant understanding of
philosophy, writing, and chemistry that I would not otherwise have discovered.
That said, it was a complete waste of time and money for me. I could be making
the same amount I am now, and I would have many thousands more in savings.

Degrees are filters for many low-level positions, but no one has asked me
whether I have a degree in years. At this point, it's all about experience and
skills. The exception might be Fortune 100 companies that still seem to care a
great deal about your formal education. Despite having a degree, I wouldn't
want to work for these companies anyway. It shows a type of hierarchical rigid
thinking and structure that I would like to avoid.

If you do decide to skip college, I'd strongly advise you to work on CS theory
AND the supplementary skills you would have learned in college. Pick up and
read some textbooks on the basic subjects you would have studied. Learning
more about programming and development is good, but I see value in diverse
knowledge.

~~~
advicethrowaway
Thanks for the advice.

>Do you want to be an entrepreneur? Do you want to build a product and
company, work for startups, or work in enterprise software development?

I want to be an entrepreneur, running my own company on organic growth rather
than VC money. I don't have a problem with being acquired but I don't want to
be using other peoples' money.

But before I attempt that I want to work as an employee of startups to gain
business experience, making mistakes and learning from them while still
earning a salary.

------
Randgalt
I've been very successful as a programmer without having gone to college.
However, the first few jobs were tough to get. Going to college will make your
first jobs easier.

~~~
ignostic
Excellent TL;DR here.

------
late2part
College serves three or four purposes:

1\. Teaches you how to get things done in a structured environment 2\. Teaches
you how to think more abstractly 3\. Teaches you social expectations of a
professiona/intellectual environment 4\. Gives you an 'achievement' with a
brand that allows you to say "I did this."

Some college is good. I think you can achieve most of the above without
finishing college. You can achieve all of the above without going to college.

~~~
ignostic
I disagree with points 1-3.

1- Undergrad college experience consists of homework and test, perhaps with
the occassional group project or presentation thrown in. This is so far
removed from what non-academics do at work that it's hilarious.

2- On what grounds do you say that college teaches you abstract thinking. In
truth, studies have found that college does no such thing for most majors.[1]
The problem is that most colleges and universities are more interested in
graduate students and research. Almost every test I took in college was
multiple choice - widely regarded as the least-effective way to teach critical
thinking. There are so many people in your classes that the professors don't
have time to do anything but put you through the degree mill, memorize-and-
repeat style.

3- My college was basically a slightly more intense version of high school.
See (1). I do agree that you learn about an intellectual environment, but many
teachers have never worked in an actual professional non-academic environment
in their lives. Your PhD in computer science knows computer science, but don't
count on them being able to teach you how to overcome organizational
obstacles.

[1]
[http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/01/18/study_finds_la...](http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/01/18/study_finds_large_numbers_of_college_students_don_t_learn_much)
[http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/05/20/studies-
challe...](http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/05/20/studies-challenge-
findings-academically-adrift#ixzz2TpwU3Ysa)

------
swalsh
I left college early to start my career. In this market it's pretty easy to
"make it" without a degree. However there are things a degree gives you that
most people don't think about. Part of this might be because i'm on the East
coast where education is a big part of who you are, but I've experienced a
huge social stigma. There's an extra burden on you when you don't have a
degree. That stigma will impact you professionally, but also socially. You'll
want to hang out with people who you view as your peers. The thing is that
most of those people went the standard route. I've found the easiest way to
cope is to just not bring it up. When it does come up, I've had good friends
change the way they talk to you. I'm always straight up with my bosses, but
with friends and coworkers it depends.

Secondly, more important then what you learn (though what you learn is
important) is the network you build. There's a saying, A players hire A
players, B players hire C players and so on. Have you ever wondered who hired
the B players? Usually its B players who got lucky. A lot of those B players
are like us. You probably want to work with other A players, but they all met
in college, and when one goes to a new company the rest of their posse
follows. So that recruiter who's getting you a job is probably going to get
you into a B role if you're good, but you're not going to be working with
people who are at the top of their game. If your goal is to be the best you
can be, you need to work with the people who are the best.

4 years is a big part of your life, but trust me. I wish i would have made the
full investment. It would have made life easier.

------
jeheald
NO NO NO NO NO NO!!! There are only three fields that require a college
education: law, medicine and engineering. Furthermore, college educations in
America are grossly overpriced. You will have a degree that doesn't get you
anything more in 4 years than working your ass off will get you 4 years from
now, plus you'll have loads of debt. DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME, TALENT OR MONEY
ON COLLEGE!!!

If you want a long, reasoned argument, drop me a line.

~~~
fantnn
I went for a few years and completely agree with this, you'll learn as slow as
the rest of the class, with arbitrary restrictions all over the place; it's an
increasingly less effective relic of the industrial age, don't waste your
time.

~~~
future_grad
How do you assume someone will "learn as slow as the rest of the class"? I am
currently in college and while the pace is that of the slowest person it does
not mean that you cannot learn more than them. Actually, I like going slower.
It gives me more time to focus on my skill development and at the same time I
can help my peers with their issues (which is great if I already overcame the
same issue!). College has taught me to become more patient, to find love of
others through knowledge, and to work hard.

Maybe it was a waste of time to you, but I hardly think that giving someone
advice to skip college because YOU think its a waste of time is a bad
decision. Are you sure you didn't miss a few things while you were there?
Might want to reconsider.

~~~
simantel
To add to your point about going slower: You can also attend your professors'
office hours and dig deeper into the subjects your classmates are forcing you
to learn so slowly. Depending on the course, they'll often have additional
reading you can do on any given subject being covered. As a bonus, your
professors will love you.

~~~
future_grad
Great point. As someone who was more of an introvert until recently, my
relationships with professors and students helped propel me outside of my
social fears. Both of those relationships are outstanding for future
opportunities to any student that works for them.

------
mathattack
Go to school. UT has a good enough program that you'll be able to learn
something from someone there, and it'll be a fun four years. You don't want to
look back at 50 and say, "Man I wish I had 4 years of academic freedom and
good times"

Yes, you can get a job without it. Yes, you are qualified even now, though
making more code visible will help.

Once you go the no-college route, you're pretty much locked in to word of
mouth job searches from here on out. If you're good enough, it won't matter.

The single best programmer I ever met dropped out of college to program full
time. He was already programming 12 hours a day for love, it just didn't
happen to coincide with his assignments. He will never need to job search -
word of mouth will carry him until he dies. If that's really you, consider
going straight into the working world. If not, consider school.

------
advicethrowaway
Both of my parents are professors so I've had a lot of pressure to choose to
go to college but I really appreciate everyone's input on this. I think the
best decision is to go to college while simultaneously building side projects,
contributing to open source, doing freelance/remote work, etc.

I have a follow-up question, however:

With my qualifications, how likely is it that I could land an internship in
San Francisco this coming summer?

I'm currently learning many new (to me) technologies, ramping up my open
source activity, and writing a blog. Is there anything else I should to do
increase my chances?

~~~
anishkothari
Build a professional network. Go to tech events at UT and career fairs. Get to
know professors, alumni and your peers.

------
seiji
_I 'm not convinced a Computer Science degree would be fully utilized in a
career in web and android development._

Right now, you can build what you know. School will show you how to build
things you don't know.

------
tuhins
If you are intelligent, have opinions and can justify your opinions, most
people will take you seriously. Whether its a mistake or not depends on you.
Are you completely set on working in tech? College for most is a time for
exploration and you will miss out on this. Also, not having a degree precludes
you from many careers outside of tech (investment banking, consulting,
professional careers in law, medicine, etc). That being said, if required, you
can always go back to school later.

------
wahjah
You should go to schoool. It may sound dumb, but it's a hiring filter at lots
of established companies and you'll be defending not having a degree for the
rest of your career if you don't.

It doesn't take that much effort to skate through on B-C's, and you can keep
doing professional dev on the side.

~~~
advicethrowaway
>it's a hiring filter at lots of established companies and you'll be defending
not having a degree for the rest of your career if you don

I agree, it's essentially putting a handicap on myself for the rest of my
life.

Do you think four years of full time experience and networking wouldn't
outweigh a degree?

------
beat
"Need".. Consider "must" versus "should". Must? No. Should? Probably.

For extra credit, consider "can't" versus "won't", and cases in which "can't"
is used to mean "won't".

------
argonaut
There was a similar thread on this topic here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6142978](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6142978).

Let me add my thoughts:

1\. In this current climate, your lack of a college degree will not affect
your hiring chances. Blue chip tech companies like Apple, Microsoft, Amazon,
Google, and Facebook care slightly more, but even then, four years of quality
work experience will actually, in my opinion, put you ahead. I get the feeling
that when people on this thread talk about HR, they are talking about the job
recruiting processes at other non Goog/Apple/Msft/Amz/Fb firms that are not as
software-focused. Those firms in my experience are a lot more meritocratic. I
didn't have a college education when my resume got through Apple's recruiter
filter, and when I got an in-person interview with Amazon.

2\. However, the current job climate in SV is quite unique. The job market is
so hot that, as you can see in the linked thread, people with 1 year of
experience can get 120k job offers as web/mobile developers (take into account
that SV is very expensive to live in). The central question is: what is the
job market going to look like in the future? If the market crashes in the next
2 years, not only will you have a hard time finding a job, but so will even
those with CS degrees (by no means am I saying that those with CS degrees will
be ahead in that case).

3\. I think there is a good chance of you getting a summer internship in the
coming summer. Do you have any family in the Bay Area that you could stay
with? Make sure it is a paid internship - unpaid internships are generally
correlated with low quality.

4\. There are other non-tangible reasons to go to school: the social
experience, meeting girls (or guys), etc. If you're a 18/19 year-old guy it
can be quite hard to date in SV working at a startup, esp. since everyone your
age is in school. It's for this reason that I chose to go to school.

5\. _Consider a compromise (see linked thread):_ Get a great internship over
the summer, preferably with a well-known startup or tech company. Do well and
ask for a full-time offer, which will allow you to bypass the normal interview
process. Defer admission to UT Austin for 1 year (a so-called gap year, you'll
have to look into their admissions policies more closely or contact the
admissions office to see if that is allowed - also see what kind of deadline
you have for declaring that you're deferring). Work for a year, and at the end
of the year, evaluate this again.

~~~
advicethrowaway
Thanks for the link.

1\. That's good to hear.

2\. I am a bit worried about that, which is why I want to take advantage of
the opportunity now rather than four years from now when it might not be
available.

3\. I do have family to stay with there.

4\. That's definitely true but I personally value money/opportunity/career to
dating.

5\. My plan right now is to do exactly that. I am a bit worried about how a
gap year will affect my scholarship opportunities though.

~~~
argonaut
Some scholarships will let you defer, others will let you apply the next year
- talk to them about that.

------
dreamdu5t
You have 30-50+ years of being forced to work. Go to college while someone is
willing to send you.

Internships at web startups are a fool's game. You can be freelancing while
going to school, making money, and gaining valuable experience.

------
advicethrowaway
These probably don't factor in but here are some more details about my
background/credentials:

SAT is 2040 (not superscored)

Top 7% of my class

#8 in the nation in web design for BPA.

~~~
thejteam
With those scores I doubt you will have much trouble in school. And if you are
in-state for UT-Austin I doubt it is too expensive.

You may just want to do android and web dev now, but nobody knows what will be
important 10 years from now. The skills you pick up in college, as well as the
credentials, may prove to be useful.

~~~
advicethrowaway
>if you are in-state for UT-Austin I doubt it is too expensive.

I am in-state and I have some money in savings so I could probably manage it
well.

>nobody knows what will be important 10 years from now

That's one of my fears about going to college. Perhaps it's irrational but I
have this feeling that I'll miss out on prime opportunities which might not be
available after I graduate.

>The skills you pick up in college, as well as the credentials, may prove to
be useful.

I definitely agree with you on that. If I ever want to get into more rigorous
software development like machine learning, searching, etc. college would be
very valuable.

~~~
tdheff
Something that no one has mentioned here, you will have a HUGE amount of free
time at college. Far, far more than you will have if you go get a job.

If you are more interested in starting/continuing to run your own projects
than working on someone else's, then I would- without a doubt- go to school.

