
Computer guy tries to hack the US Constitution with the American Nations - tswicegood
http://blogs.pitch.com/plog/2010/06/sean_tevis_to_save_america_starting_with_kansas_2nd_district.php#more
======
sethg
AIUI, Federal authority over relations with the Indian tribes comes from
Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution, which gives Congress the authority
“To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and
with the Indian tribes”. (The idea that the Founding Fathers were concerned
about defending those tribes’ “culture, identity, and rights” is very sweet;
actually, _King George III_ tried to defend Indians’ rights by not letting
settlers expand further into their territory.) The term “domestic nations”
came about _to describe_ the tribes’ twilight-zone status of not exactly
independent sovereign states and not exactly subject to the laws of the states
in which their reservations existed either.

Tevis’s theory is that a bunch of people who are (a) not indigenous Americans,
(b) not related to each other, and (c) not possessing anything resembling the
semi-sovereign territories that Indian tribes used to have... that these
people can get together, declare themselves to be a “domestic nation”, and
have the same legal status of Indian tribes. I can’t see how one could
construe the Constitution to get away with this. More importantly, I can’t see
how _state governments_ would stand for a law giving people such an easy
escape hatch away from their own jurisdiction.

~~~
username3
AIUI == As I understand it

~~~
joejohnson
Can we refrain from esoteric abbreviations like these? I don't feel like they
save that much space, not that space is even an issue.

------
iamdave
I truly admire his dedication to creating something people can identify with
and working towards a higher cause of true nationhood, but a major
contributing cause to the disarray of American politics is the polarization of
the citizenry. We're too quick to take sides, regardless of issues and will
gladly "drink the kool-aid" of whatever side parallels the most with what we
believe is good, versus what's intrinsically right.

This is manifested even in the examples he presented; being an online entity,
who's to say that foul play wont occur? What is the system for checks and
balances when poisoning the wells to gain followers? Look at Digg and Reddit:

Ostensibly, both sites serve the same purpose, and on a given day you'll very
likely find links to the exact same controversial article. It's also likely
you'll hear two completely different sides of the issue-one pro, one against,
one conservative, one progressive, one rational, one emotional.

The American Nations isn't going to address anything, further segmenting
people into groups only reinforces the idea that you need to be with people
who agree with you, and rally against those who don't. It's giving the middle
finger to compromise and collaboration among people with opposing viewpoints,
we don't need further segmentation of ideologies, we really don't.

And I get that he's wanting a microcosm of progressive individuals who want to
address major issues as they are, but creating a group within a group, that's
already divided and indecisive about how policies shape their day to day lives
isn't the answer. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

If you want to FIX America, start by teaching people to think for themselves
and dislodge themselves from the meme that everything in the political arena
has to be constructed under an "us versus them" mentality, and to not base
their moral compasses on sound-bites and blogger pundits. Then you need to
teach them how beneficial and enjoyable it can be to actually learn what the
guy on the other side of the table has to say.

Stop playing sides. It's destroying us as a people.

~~~
stevis
> If you want to FIX America, start by teaching people to think for themselves
> and dislodge themselves from the meme that everything in the political arena
> has to be constructed under an "us versus them" mentality,

This is, I believe, not possible.

Our media has every incentive to carve out a demographic and get them angry at
others. We have a winner-take-all political system with two political parties,
which creates polar arguments. Duvarger's Law makes fixing this impossible.

And I think you have the wrong impression of what these are. They are very
limited, but the newspaper story doesn't go into those rules. It's a way to
remove differences so that one group, say people who believe Obama is the
Anti-Christ, can try to achieve something for themselves free from those of us
who prefer reason. In any peace process, there a few tried and true steps. One
is to separate the two warring sides so that they can't escalate fear or
damage.

This is a massive undertaking, but i don't see anyone trying to bring America
back together. You ask good questions. Your worries about where we're headed
are justified. And I'm going to add at least four answers to the FAQ based on
this. Thanks!

~~~
skorgu
Have you considered joining forces with Lawrence Lessig for this? His Change
Congress is a drastically different mechanism but the end results seem roughly
similar.

Besides the Voltron aspect he is a recognized legal scholar and might quiet
some of the "this could never work" arguments if he signs off on it.

~~~
stevis
That's a great idea. I think we have some mutual friends. I'll see if i can
get to him.

------
Gormo
This reminds me of the Millet system used under the Ottoman empire. The
central government had very little direct involvement in what we would today
call "personal law" or "social policy"; instead, these were organized into
separate communities along religious lines. Muslims, Jews, and various
Christian denominations each had their own sets of institutions.

A more modern example is Belgium, which has a kind of double federalism, where
regional governments for Flanders and Wallonia have territorial jurisdiction,
and community governments for the French-, Flemish-, and German-speaking
populations have separate "social" jurisdiction.

In these cases, the social jurisdiction was determined by religious or
linguistic affiliation, with only a handful of communities and very limited
mobility among them. It would be very interesting to see such a system
organized on a much more pluralistic and dynamic basis, in which people could
charter their own communities and change their affiliations freely.

~~~
stevis
Thanks for that example, Gormo. We hadn't seen that one. Most of the other
examples we'd found were separate, but geographically overlapping systems
based on secular vs. religious laws.

~~~
Gormo
Out of curiosity, which was example was the new one, the Ottoman millet
system, or modern Belgium?

~~~
stevis
Both actually, but the Belgian example is really helpful. -- note to self - be
more clear. :-)

------
wrs
Reminds me of the "phyles" in Neal Stephenson's _The Diamond Age_. Figuring
out how the social contract can reasonably diverge among people residing in
the same physical and economic space seems like a hard problem. It isn't
obvious that health care qualifies.

~~~
mmelin
I haven't read The Diamond Age, but this sounds like the beginnings of the
franchise states in Snow Crash.

------
mattmcknight
His "Public Healthcare Nation" is likely to be hit with an adverse selection
problem- unless you have to pass a physical to be admitted.

~~~
sbov
It will also have problems because the real problem with health care costs is
what hospitals charge. Health care is expensive because hospitals rip you off.
They can do this because most people don't even consider the costs and will
pay whatever it takes (its not their problem - its their health insurance's
problem).

I had a doctor take a cotton ball out of my ear in the hallway. It took about
10 seconds. I got charged $700.

~~~
tcskeptic
Wait a second, granted you may not have expected to be charged $700, but why
have a doctor do something so simple? Why not just do it yourself or have a
friend with tweezers do it?

~~~
philwelch
A nurse practitioner probably could have done it cheaper, but you probably
want to be pretty sure that the tweezer plan is going to work before digging
around deep in your ear canal with them. A doctor or nurse is presumably
trained enough to make that call, or defer that call to someone who would know
better.

------
Create
The US Constitution is known to have failed. On several levels.

 _I think I should say right away an unpleasant fact which is barely if ever
mentioned in American school books - the founders were not interested in
founding a democracy._ \-- It's a nine ring circus and you'll never be bored,
AC, Letter from America

<http://morgenstern.jeffreykegler.com/>

[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/letter_from_america/10...](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/letter_from_america/1054039.stm)

------
openfly
This is actually kind of brilliant. It's very similar to parliamentary voting
systems in top down democracies ( as seen in Europe tm ). Except it's US
constitution compatible. Clever hack.

I tentatively like it. Will require more research.

------
eli
Seems like the same kind of thinking that says e.g. I don't have to pay my
income tax.

The law does not lend itself to "hacking." It just doesn't work like that.

~~~
stevis
This has nothing in common with that. It's really just as simple as allowing
enforcement of a group contract. And people look for legal workarounds all the
time. The really expensive lawyers are excellent at it.

------
tswicegood
I imagine more information is going to be made available at
<http://seantevis.com/>, but its an interesting idea.

------
sdurkin
Purely illegal and unconstitutional. I admire the spirit, but this is the sort
of thing that wouldn't make it past a District Court judge.

~~~
stevis
Sure, if you make the case based on the Establishment clause and try to sue
your way to creating them. Legitimate Native Americans have tried to sue their
way into their own nations and it's been thrown out.

But I'm not. It's based on Congress' Plenary Authority over the Indian
Nations. Congress can modify the rules however they see fit, including
creating a new class.

That was a good question.

------
natmaster
Can someone point me to the explanation of how this will do all the things he
promises? What will be the difference between the nations, etc?

~~~
stevis
It's not live yet. Probably Tuesday by the looks of it. We gave this interview
hoping to flesh out the natural questions that people might have. So far,
Hacker News has done the best job. We're compiling things for the FAQ and the
other 80% of the comic not shown on the newspaper site.

~~~
drivebyacct
Do you need someone to design/build a website for you? Your current site
displays in a very thin column that is difficult and frustrating to read. Not
to mention it's a bit lack luster.

~~~
stevis
No, but thank you. There's actually a full, beautiful site behind that hastily
hacked together front page. That's what will go live soon - probably Tuesday
or Wednesday.

