
Affiliate links on Reddit - unlinker
https://www.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/4ldk0r/reddit_change_affiliate_links_on_reddit/?x
======
greenspot
Every consumer site wants user generated content for free but is not willing
to share a tiny bit of the revs.

This signals desperation than proper business development. Reddit should look
at Snapchat: today they have a Nike filter live. This is smart monetization
and gives more bucks than this affiliate hack. Besides, Reddit should have
done this affiliate thing themselves and not employed Viglink. Any
intermediate will not just take their cut, they take more and send lower
reports in general (if a CPA deal).

~~~
ben_jones
I think Reddit has proven over the last decade that they have more limited
options then other tech companies because of their engineering ability. Sports
threads (NFL playoffs, NBA, MLB, Hockey, Football) up until maybe three years
ago would unilaterally crash Reddit's servers or create large amounts of lag
across the platform. It has been "solved" in recent years with an absolutely
ABSURD amount of caching that is detrimental to the user experience because it
will prevent the user from seeing updated content for a few minutes. They have
limited streaming functionality that does not make up for this.

They hired their first CTO in 2015 and he seems to be doing a good job. But
theirs no silver bullet for a legacy infrastructure especially if you add all
the pressure Reddit is receiving to monetize ASAP.

~~~
victor9000
Reddit's management team has created a policy of underpaying engineers, so
it's no surprise to me that their technical capacity is less than stellar.

~~~
ben_jones
I actually think companies can get away with "underpaying" engineers if they
can offer alternative benefits like great culture, lower cost-of-living,
growth opportunities (career and equity value), etc..

But Reddit is a company with a laundry list of PR crises, with an office in
one of the most expensive cities in the world, constantly changing leadership,
constantly changing leadership goals, extremely dissatisfied investors, an
estranged and angry founder, AND a reputation for underpaying engineers.

Ten bucks says they file a complaint somewhere stating "their aren't enough
developers in the work force".

~~~
Twirrim
They didn't used to be in San Fran, and they _used_ to support remote work,
where cost of living was less of an issue, and lower salaries could stretch a
lot further if (for example) an employee was working in the mid west. They had
a bunch of strong advantages and an already geographically dispersed workforce
and threw it away at a time when they really needed to be getting the most
bang for their buck.

~~~
unlinker
As far as I remember, they indeed are in severe money troubles. I guess they
are, if they need to get pennies off affiliate links. Because, let's be honest
here, how much money do they expect to make? My guess is that they will make
around a couple thousands a month. What do they expect to do with that,
especially at the expense of looking cheap as fuck?

~~~
mrep
> A couple thousand a month

I think your off by a couple orders of magnitude on that one.

------
orng
Reddit HQ, in a not too distant future:

HighUpManager: "We aren't hitting our expected KPI's, we need to find ways to
increase affiliate revenue. Is there any way we can increase affiliate-link
exposure?"

MiddleManager: "Well, I guess I could have my team modify the ranking
algorithm so that our affiliate links rise to the front-page faster and stay
there longer. However..."

HighUpManager: "Great! Make it so."

~~~
deegles
Is that what happened to Digg?

~~~
mtkd
I was going to post it feels like the last days of Digg, but thought I'd check
the comments first

It's unfortunate Reddit can't leave a working formula alone - HN has barely
changed in 7 years - I really respect the control that must have taken - the
lack of category filters on HN means I always need some other source

I do hope this and the imgur change last week doesn't mark the start of the
end but it's probably time for a new player ... CIX -> Usenet/Dejanews -> Digg
-> Reddit -> ??

~~~
Twirrim
> It's unfortunate Reddit can't leave a working formula alone

Working for who? They're not making money, so the service is unsustainable. It
_has_ to change.

~~~
erikpukinskis
There's no way a text-only site with 100% user generated content can't be
maintained profitably with a traditional ad sales team. They're going for a
bigger play, which is fine, but there are definitely easier strategies to
sustain a smaller team.

------
asd
They will not be overwriting any existing affiliate codes. If this helps them
keep the lights on, I say go for it.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/4ldk0r/reddit_ch...](https://www.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/4ldk0r/reddit_change_affiliate_links_on_reddit/d3mfo70)

~~~
yclept
Of concern is that they are using a third party affiliate network. That means
tracking and selling you.

~~~
adamrezich
Well, I mean, _I_ don't pay to use Reddit, and there's no such thing as a free
lunch... so if this helps keep Reddit afloat, I guess it doesn't really bother
me that much?

~~~
ben_jones
The problem I have with it is I've seen third party affiliates do incredibly
shady stuff. Companies like Amazon, Google, Reddit, do shady stuff too, but
they at least have some interest in keeping a good public image. Third-party
companies however live in the shadow and could give two fucks how far they
push user privacy protections, if they even give them any credence in the
first place.

~~~
sunshiney
I am interested in knowing more about this shady stuff..a few examples,
please? Merci!

~~~
ben_jones
Wage collusion at Google, Warehouse worker conditions at Amazon, and
censorship at Reddit. I'm more critiquing the morality of the companies
themselves, and my real argument is that third party affiliates are often
completely unknown, and therefore cannot be held accountable the same way the
larger companies can.

~~~
sunshiney
I have mixed feelings toward the wage collusion among tech firms. The issue is
driven by a dearth of high skilled employees and a large demand. As an
employer, I totally get a no poaching approach. As a employer, I also
understand what is occurring now -- stunningly high payouts to poach an
employee. The pool roble is that nirvana is not achievable as long as humans
behave like humans. Employees criticize the ethics of employers. Employers
criticize the ethics if employees. That will not change. The only viable
approach, imho, is to truly and seriously consider the long term reactions to
all decisions and to choose the one that causes the best outcome. I truly
believe that we all try to do our best .. even those of us who run companies.
But it is a two way street. I can assure you that I have grown over the years
to a place I thought I would never be -- distrust in employees. I have
experienced employee theft, lies, laziness, personal choices that result in
poor work, and nore. I could easily question the morality of most employees.
My point is that we cannot create a world of employers and employees that are
all good all of the time or even the majority of the time.

------
sbierwagen
Why on Earth would they go through Viglink, rather than modifying the URLs
themselves? Is it that hard to add `&tag=reddit` to the end of an amazon.com
url?

~~~
kelukelugames
My guesses are:

1) Maybe Viglink offered a deal to get exposure. I never heard of them until
today.

2) They claim to cover 30k merchants.[1] Maybe there is a lot of money for
reddit in the 29,999 other sellers too.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VigLink](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VigLink)

~~~
xur17
Vigilink also offers a great short term solution to help them get this out the
door, and figure out how much they can make. In the future, they can do the
math, and pretty easily decide if it's worth taking the time to rewrite the
urls / manage a bunch of affiliate programs themselves to increase their
margin.

------
arielm
I think this is a great attempt by Reddit to become sustainable that isn't
purely based on display advertising.

I personally dislike affiliate links just like most others but unlike ads they
don't ruin my browsing experience and are generally very transparent.

The real issue here in my opinion is how this was announced, as a "we're doing
this, FYI". I'd instead open up a discussion with mods of large communities to
get feedback and once they understand the goal get them to show support.

And if they had gone the route of involving large communities they could have
also done a tiny rev share, similar to how YouTube compensates content
creators.

~~~
sunshiney
As an online entrepreneur I am curious as to why you dislike affiliates?

~~~
Spivak
Because it changes the motivation for recommending recommending a product when
you're getting paid for it. The perverse incentive structure is why most of
Reddit bans them.

In Reddit's case, it means they have an incentive to silently promote posts
and comments that have affiliate links because it makes them money.

If a review of a product has affiliate links then I'll immediately distrust
the review because it's not possible for me to know whether they _actually_
like the product or because they get paid if they convince people to like it.

~~~
sunshiney
I have so many reactions to these thoughts that I hardly know where to start!
My first reaction is that this means all sales functions are to not be
trusted. Is that accurate for you?

------
herbst
It is kind of strange that online shops are in with this. I mean the links are
there anyway, there is no additional benefit for the shops but they still have
to pay additional costs in that way.

~~~
rwmj
I wonder what's in it for Amazon to continue with affiliate links. It was
clever in the early days when Amazon wanted everyone to link/visit Amazon and
were willing to give out free money to achieve that. But now it's Amazon
paying to maintain a network of spammers, click hijackers and dishonest
reviewers. What's in it for Amazon now?

~~~
tomascot
I guess it could be free promotion, is not unusual for respected sites to
publish affiliate links to Amazon.

MercadoLibre, one of the biggest ecommerce platform in latam, had an affiliate
program, but they cut it when they were "big enough".

------
userbinator
From reading through that thread it seems this is being done with JS, so the
links still look like before but when you click them, something else happens
to cause a redirect. IMHO that's not very honest behaviour, but fortunately
sounds easy to block.

However, I have a feeling that some of the users will simply start rewriting
links to not look like links.

[http://superuser.com/questions/513323/how-to-open-hxxp-or-
ot...](http://superuser.com/questions/513323/how-to-open-hxxp-or-other-
obscured-links-automatically-in-firefox)

~~~
DanBC
Are they allowed to do that under US law? Don't affiliate links have to be
marked as such?

EDIT: Here's what the FTC says: [https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-
center/guidance/ftc...](https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-
center/guidance/ftcs-endorsement-guides-what-people-are-asking#affiliate)

> _I’m an affiliate marketer with links to an online retailer on my website.
> When people read what I’ve written about a particular product and then click
> on those links and buy something from the retailer, I earn a commission from
> the retailer. What do I have to disclose? Where should the disclosure be?_

> If you disclose your relationship to the retailer clearly and conspicuously
> on your site, readers can decide how much weight to give your endorsement.

> In some instances – like when the affiliate link is embedded in your product
> review – a single disclosure may be adequate. When the review has a clear
> and conspicuous disclosure of your relationship and the reader can see both
> the review containing that disclosure and the link at the same time, readers
> have the information they need. You could say something like, “I get
> commissions for purchases made through links in this post.” But if the
> product review containing the disclosure and the link are separated, readers
> may lose the connection.

> As for where to place a disclosure, the guiding principle is that it has to
> be clear and conspicuous. The closer it is to your recommendation, the
> better. Putting disclosures in obscure places – for example, buried on an
> ABOUT US or GENERAL INFO page, behind a poorly labeled hyperlink or in a
> “terms of service” agreement – isn’t good enough. Neither is placing it
> below your review or below the link to the online retailer so readers would
> have to keep scrolling after they finish reading. Consumers should be able
> to notice the disclosure easily. They shouldn’t have to hunt for it.

> _Is “affiliate link” by itself an adequate disclosure? What about a “buy
> now” button?_

> Consumers might not understand that “affiliate link” means that the person
> placing the link is getting paid for purchases through the link. Similarly,
> a “buy now” button would not be adequate.

~~~
CM30
This is a good point, and it's also one of the reasons a lot of 'news sites',
blogs and Youtube channels are getting a lot of criticism, because they don't
seem to be interested in following FTC (or other country equivalent) rules for
disclosure.

Unfortunately, neither the FTC nor their equivalents elsewhere seem to be
particularly good at enforcing these rules, so a lot of unscrupulous sites
(and as in this case, many large ones) just ignore them altogether.

------
verroq
First imgur, then reddit. I hope voat is readying their servers for the
traffic spike.

~~~
mynewtb
One look at voat.co's frontpage was enough for me to simply add the domain to
my blocker. Nothing but filth, looked like only the bad bits of reddit.

~~~
M2Ys4U
The only time I've seen people say they're moving to Voat is when they get fed
up of being banned for being idiot racists (e.g. nazis, white supremacists
etc.) or misogynists.

~~~
krapp
That is why sites like Voat and 8chan were created - people believed Reddit
and 4chan were too strict and politically correct.

~~~
hsod
And then on the flip side you have Imzy, for people who believe Reddit is
insufficiently strict and politically correct. Options are a good thing, I
think.

~~~
stesch
Imzy is slow and boring. Looks like a second system effect version of Reddit +
Digg.

~~~
kelukelugames
I'm on Imzy. I don't hate it but also don't like it. However, I love the art
themes.

------
kmfrk
I can totally understand this intent, but back when I was looking into
something similar for forums, I found that doing so was generally against the
TOS of places like Amazon?

------
mrmondo
Is there an opt-in/out button clearly visible in the early section of your
profile / settings? If not reddit would be considered clickbait and this would
cause a huge drop in user and social attendance and lost revenue. This move is
more than foolish.

~~~
robbiemitchell
Why would the addition of affiliate tags cause any drop in user engagement?

~~~
mrmondo
Digital privacy is bigger in the news right now, it's on every countries
agenda and to put the icing on the cake an example like affiliate tags is
something that's trivial explain to non-technical people.

When a social media (always in the media) site that's well known starts
tracking user links and proving that to any third parties - the argument from
reddit will be that it's A) Anonymous and B) Secure - both of which are hot
topics which are quickly starting starting to be disassembled by the general
public - undoubtedly reddit will either be wrapped up in it which could be
financially costly or publicisd and will likely turn off users.

Seems like a very odd time to be making a move like this.

~~~
sunshiney
Do you have a suggestion on how they can earn revenue from their service in a
way that does not cause you to object?

~~~
mrmondo
I haven't given any thought to this, I'd probably need to understand their
current profit model and high level expenses to get a proper picture.

~~~
sunshiney
It is an interesting issue for all online content providers. If you are in
ecommerce, that sector us in trouble because of the monopolies allowed
online...thus going down that path is a gamble loaded against you. Amazon and
eBay have made it nigh impossible to build your own brand outside of your
community. Meanwhile everyone wants great content but subscription models,
display ads, affiliate ads are disliked and ad blockers are rampant. When you
eliminate pops to earn some green against a background of increasing costs
associated with employees, I see a terrible outlook for the future of online
for all content sites and the reduction of the net to the few big boys who
aggregate retail and brochure sites that are skin to business cards. We ate
truly in a pivotal time that I see is a massive change online. It is not just
a Reddit issue. It is everywhere. Eager to hear what consumers and readers
would support.

------
gravypod
My main issue with this is that this is some behavior that is typically
present in malware. Why is it acceptable when a website you visit does this,
but unacceptable when an application you download an use does this?

This seems very underhanded. I really don't think I'll support this. I think I
may need to write a Chrome/Firefox extension that grabs all of those links and
rewrites them to be affiliate links to a charity.

------
petetnt
One can also opt out of VigLink via [http://www.viglink.com/opt-
out/](http://www.viglink.com/opt-out/) so that's an option too if you don't
appreciate this change.

~~~
Spivak
This is not the way to opt-out because you have to keep their cookies on your
system. The only real way to opt-out is to strip the links and prevent the
redirect.

~~~
awqrre
Opting out in your reddit preferences would be ok if it was possible...

------
stesch
Voat, Imzy, and Hacker News are pretty obsessed with Reddit.

~~~
simonswords82
Well Reddit is one of the most popular websites in the world, so it makes
sense no?

------
B1FF_PSUVM
Digg we go.

~~~
LeoNatan25
Hopefully sooner rather than later.

~~~
stesch
And then?

------
shrugger
I know it's one of those 'tabs or spaces' questions, but are there any decent
alternatives to Reddit?

I've tried Voat, but it's literally just Reddit.

The world needs a p2p, anonymity-first, censorship resistant link-sharing and
discussion site/app/thing.

If anyone could point in some such direction, I sure would appreciate it.

~~~
rsync
"but are there any decent alternatives to Reddit?"

You're _on it_. You're using it right now. This is _it_.

I've been an active user and contributor to (in order) local BBS, Fidonet,
Usenet, Slashdot, Kuro5hin, digg/reddit, HN, and in my opinion, HN is the
best, most interesting and functional discussion board that has ever existed.

Enjoy it! It won't last forever.

~~~
shrugger
HN censoring is terrifyingly rampant, dang is an extremely egotistic, and
objectively biased moderator. I don't disagree that HN is capable of producing
interesting conversations, but it's a very limited window imo. HN suffers
greatly from one of the major problems that plagues Reddit, and that's the
hivemind effect that threads seem to have. I was a great fan of Slashdot
because it was possible to see multiple threads with different opinions from a
parent topic, but on HN, whatever the hivemind agrees with floats the top and
the rest sinks like a rock. That people think HN is even close to a balanced
platform is somewhat concerning.

~~~
dsacco
_> > HN censoring is terrifyingly rampant, dang is an extremely egotistic, and
objectively biased moderator._

 _Sigh_...alright, I'll bite. Can you give a concrete example of HN censoring
in effect?

~~~
unlinker
If you say something that could be labelled as conservative (something racist,
or something about family values vs. homosexuality, or mentioning men and
women are not equal in some way, etc) your comment will be killed by dang
himself, and he'll say you're being inflammatory.

It's funny how this creates an echo chamber where nobody in real life is
racist, or where you believe yourself that something remotely racist is wrong.

~~~
jklinger410
being insensitive is now being conflated with being racist/sexist etc etc

------
unlinker
Why was the title changed in this way? The new title is so generic, it has
nothing to do with the actual problem.

------
ksou32
Rip internet

~~~
sunshiney
Now why do you say that? What is an alternative means to earning dollars that
you do support? I am an online entrepreneur so I am truly interested in
knowing. .. ty!

