
Ageism is forcing many to look outside Silicon Valley - jwassil
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/columnist/2017/08/04/ageism-forcing-many-look-outside-silicon-valley-but-tech-hubs-offer-little-respite/479468001/
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Powerofmene
We hear it over and over again and I understand the reluctance to address it
(it can be scary to step out from the crowd) but when is an organization with
clout, such as YC, going to take a stand on this issue? Until an organization
has the desire and courage to step out from the crowd and fund ideas/startups,
without regard to age but, on the strength of the idea and the team, then this
issue will forever be in the news.

This would also be an opportunity to expand the pool of startups to fund and
to analyze growth, ROI, etc. compared to the standard business practice of
funding startups with young founders.

How can we say we care about people and on finding solutions for the problems
facing people today when we shut the door on a large segment of society simply
because they are over 40? i wonder how Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, Peter Thiel,
Sergey Brian, or Eric Schmidt feel about this topic if there was mandatory
retirement at the age of 40 in tech. Would they think they still had something
to offer? If the answer is they would, why is everyone ignoring this issue?

~~~
davidreiss
> If the answer is they would, why is everyone ignoring this issue?

Nobody is ignoring it. It's just if you haven't moved up the
tech/management/etc ladder by your late 30s/40s, there just isn't a place for
you in silicon valley/tech startup scene.

I started at a startup when I was 20. All the devs were in their 20s. Our
founder was 29. During milestone/release/go-live times, we'd work 20 hours a
day and sleep at our desks and wash in the 1 toilet bathroom the entire week
or two prior to get our job ( deliverable ) done. Now that I'm older, that's
something I just physically can't do. I just don't have the energy or stamina
for it. Also, family responsibilities means I can't do it.

The startup scene is such a raw, all-or-nothing, winner-take-all scene that
it'll always be a young man's game.

Also, younger people are viewed as more innovative, more immersed in new tech
and quicker to learn. As much as experienced is touted, it's not worth much in
the startup scene. Certainly it helps if you are the founder/team lead, but
for the regular devs, it just makes sense to bring in the cheaper, hungrier,
"quicker", eager college grads or young devs.

Put yourself in their position. Imagine you just founded a startup. Would you
really be willing to hire overpaid 40 year olds who have to be home by 5 or 6
PM? Also, would you as a 40 year old be comfortable in a dev team with a bunch
of 20 year olds?

This is why as devs grow older, they transition to more established
corporations. It's why VCs love to fund younger founders. That's where the
innovation/energy/risk-appetite is. 40 year olds have kids college funds to
think of, their retirement funds, healthcare, etc to worry about. And as you
grow older you get more conservative and set in your ways.

Also, as younger people/devs continue to create winners like google, facebook,
snapchat, youtube, reddit, microsoft, etc, that's where the money will go.

Silicon Vally and the VC community isn't about charity or societal good, it's
about making money.

~~~
rsj_hn
You understand that the vast majority of jobs in Silicon Valley are not start
ups. Google, Apple, Facebook -- these aren't start ups, and people aren't
working 20 hour days there.

Moreover it's just not the case that someone can be productive for 20 hours a
day for any extended period of time. Maybe you can do that for a few days,
max, but then your productivity plummets and you'd be better off working 8
hours. This notion that 20 year olds have amazing concentration ability,
rather than just poor time management, is believed only by 20 somethings with
poor time management skills.

~~~
davidreiss
> You understand that the vast majority of jobs in Silicon Valley are not
> start ups. Google, Apple, Facebook -- these aren't start ups, and people
> aren't working 20 hour days there.

The guy I responded to was talking about startups and VC funding, so that's
why I focused on startups.

> Moreover it's just not the case that someone can be productive for 20 hours
> a day for any extended period of time. Maybe you can do that for a few days,
> max, but then your productivity plummets and you'd be better off working 8
> hours.

Sure. But when you have deliverables and are time constrained, you just don't
have much choice. The client has expectations and we had to work extra hard to
meet them. 20 hour workdays are definitely not viable over the long term.

> This notion that 20 year olds have amazing concentration ability, rather
> than just poor time management, is believed only by 20 somethings with poor
> time management skills.

I mostly talked about stamina, energy, quicker to learn, etc. Not sure about
concentration ability, but I do tend to think younger people with a passion
are better at concentrating and focusing on something. Also, I'm no longer a
20 something. Sadly, I'm one of those heading to 40s rather quickly.

I didn't mean to upset people. I was just talking from experience and trying
to explain why VC money goes to younger founders and why startups prefer
younger devs.

That formula isn't going to change until older founders and older devs start
creating googles, facebooks, apples, microsofts, etc.

It isn't a bias against older people since almost all of the VC investors are
older people in their 40s, 50s, etc. It's a matter of what demographic has
delivered the 1000000% returns.

It isn't set in stone. Money will go where money is made. Especially in a high
risk, high reward environment like the startup sector.

Believe me, as someone who is older now, I would like nothing more than to see
things change. Being viewed as over-the-hill when you turn 30 is a difficult
pill to swallow.

~~~
rsj_hn
But again, the article was about discrimination in the valley, and the parent
was also referring to sv, although they again identified sv as a start up
scene when it's really not.

Sure, start ups discriminate against older workers, against women, against
blacks, etc. Hell, I've seen them discriminate against people with different
musical tastes. Start ups, by definition, are small businesses and we
tolerate/have lower standards for small businesses than large corporations.
That's why you have restaurants that only hire family members, for example.

Fortunately start ups are kind of irrelevant in terms of total developer
employment in the valley. There just aren't that many start ups and they don't
survive that long, so they don't account for most employment. They do capture
the imagination of the valley, so whenever someone brings up age
discrimination in the valley, the come back is always "well, in a start up.."

>That formula isn't going to change until older founders and older devs start
creating googles, facebooks, apples, microsofts, etc.

Intel was started by Robert Noyce when he was 41. Gordon Moore was 40. Geschke
and Warnock were 45 and 42 when they founded Adobe. Cisco and AMD were founded
by 30 somethings. Huang was 39 when he founded NVIDIA. Interestingly in China,
Jack Ma was 35 when he founded Ali Baba -- would he have been able to raise
capital in SV today?

None of the original companies in SV were founded by someone in their 20s. It
just didn't happen. The idea that only 20 somethings can start companies is
very new, and whether or not it's a good idea, it's not the case that workers
in their 30s and 40s need to "prove" that they are able to found big
companies, as we are all living in the shadows of great tech companies founded
by people in this age bracket.

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crunkykd
Depending on the industry, there is a tendency to hire founders of a certain
age group. Certain industries like mfg and international trade favor older
founders who have acquired knowledge and widespread contacts over decades.
Other industries that need the latest college-produced science & tech favor
the newest grads from 1st tier universities. It's all about risk reduction and
outsized returns. Where energy and time count most, send in the youth. Where
widespread personal networks and deep domain knowledge count most, send in the
grey hairs.

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pascalxus
Just another symptom of the oversupply of Talent in this industry.

~~~
0xbear
Nail on the head. Cut H1b admission in half and older software engineers will
be in demand again.

