
Ask HN: The Internet is getting lame. What's next? - everyone
The internet used to be a really cool place full of wild ideas and weirdos.
Now its like a tidy, tightly policed suburban shopping mall.
Whats the next big thing?
======
hodwik
The weirdos are all still out there.

Something has definitely changed though, the internet communities of the past
used to be very VERY tight-knit.

There just wasn't that many of us, so you'd talk to people unlike you. I knew
my bbs friends all by their first and last names, had photos of them, would
talk to the better ones on the phone, they were some of my best friends
despite them usually being completely different from myself.

These days, I don't know a single person on the internet, and I rarely
interact with people on the internet who are different from me, so I never get
into the depth of conversation I once did. That's something lost.

The internet used to be like a dive-bar in an ivy-league college town, full of
geniuses and weirdo townies. These days it's more like the city of New York --
no one knows you, and no one cares to.

~~~
ggchappell
> ... I never get into the depth of conversation I once did. That's something
> lost.

Others have given some good answers, but I think there is another factor: the
way discussions are organized.

In a typical BBS, or on UseNet in days of old, a thread was linear, identified
only by its subject line. Multiple people could stay with a thread for a
relatively long time and have an extended discussion.

Today, most online forum software (HN, Reddit, etc.) displays threads as
trees. Each reply begins a new subthread. As a result, a conversion involving
more than 2 people will rarely be linear, and a reply 2 or 3 or 4 levels in
will be read by almost no one.

But the solution is not to move back to linear threads. Those were abandoned
for a good reason: they do not scale. Six active posters might be able to have
a reasonable linear discussion. 100 cannot. Linear threads are also much
easier for one poster to hijack. Among 6 people, there is a decent chance that
none of them is a jerk. Among 100 people, the chance is pretty much zero. So
the thread gets filled with troll posts. Conclusion: tree-shaped discussions,
along with voting, are what prevents us from being drowned in troll posts &
flamewars.

So, what is the solution? I don't know. It's an interesting problem to
consider.

~~~
tripzilch
But Usenet had threads, in a way, with your client trying to detect and put
them together as best as possible. It didn't always get it right, but 99% of
the time is good enough to get the benefits.

Same goes for mailinglists. Posts get sorted in threads.

~~~
ggchappell
> But Usenet had threads, ....

Yes, using the "References:" and/or "In-Reply-To:" headers. Later clients
tended to do this, I think.

> ... to get the benefits.

Yes, and the drawbacks: in-depth discussions involving multiple people were
harder to come by.

In any case, in both Usenet -- late in the game -- and many mailing lists,
there are relatively few participants, so scaling is not really an issue.

------
Simulacra
REAL LIFE. Real Life is the next internet! In the future, people will go
outside and talk to one another, face to face! We will congregate in libraries
and bookstores, and drink coffee that doesn't suck or cost over $2 a cup. The
future is coming....

~~~
hodwik
I keep thinking this same thing myself, and have tried to work the IRL-angle,
but when you're an adult no one really wants to meet you.

Up until the early 00s, I used to hang out at a coffee/cigarette bar where I
knew just about every single person who walked through the door, and people
would sit there for hours and hours talking to strangers about very
interesting stuff, while drinking insane amounts of coffee and chain smoking.

If those sorts of places still exist, I have no idea where they are.

~~~
blackbeard
We gave greasy cafes in the UK. They are the equivalent.

I used to get breakfast every Thursday with a one legged motorcycle courier
(still have no idea how that worked) who fought in the gulf war, an HSBC
executive and a fishmonger. I miss that.

I have kids now and other parents are horrible people.

~~~
Simulacra
Wow, that sounds awesome!

------
rbosinger
I think the internet will become more and more invisible. Everything will be
connected to it and just "do it's thing" (like the electrical grid). The web
itself will eventually tone down. There will be less unique web apps,
individual blogs and online stores as these things fold into the bigger
players. As security issues get worse and worse companies will be a lot
tighter with their APIs, means of access, etc. Things will be more locked down
in general (Apple-like) and most people will be fine with that.

Once we get to this point the weirdos will find some service to call their own
and it's less likely that everyone else will care about those groups.

Basically, I see the internet getting busier on a technical level (amount of
information/packets flowing around) but quieter in a social sense.

------
k2enemy
I'm rooting for [http://ipfs.io](http://ipfs.io).

~~~
theseatoms
How does it do DNS? Like Namecoin? Reading the site now..

~~~
k2enemy
IPNS (The Inter-Planetary Naming System) is a step in that direction...

[http://gateway.ipfs.io/ipfs/QmTkzDwWqPbnAh5YiV5VwcTLnGdwSNsN...](http://gateway.ipfs.io/ipfs/QmTkzDwWqPbnAh5YiV5VwcTLnGdwSNsNTn2aDxdXBFca7D/example#/ipfs/QmThrNbvLj7afQZhxH72m5Nn1qiVn3eMKWFYV49Zp2mv9B/ipns/readme.md)

~~~
sktrdie
Is everything Inter-Planetary?

------
bane
You're probably

a) part of groups that have now grown up and merged into the collective
internet and diluted

b) need to find new groups that interest you

For my part, there's huge thriving communities of like-minded nerds all over
the place, you just have to look outside of popular places.

Pouet, atariage, msx.org, nectarine radio, tons of messageboards, hell; my
local neighborhood messageboard is full of crazy internet weirdos of my type.

HN and some very narrow reddits are kind of cliche, but they work also.

I keep saying it here, but there's absolutely nothing to stop old-style
internet communities from springing up again, except that the draw of
megasites like reddit and facebook seem to steal all the mindshare. Heck, even
IRC is still around. Heck _telnet BBSs_ are still around
[http://www.synchro.net/sbbslist.html](http://www.synchro.net/sbbslist.html)

Just set up the community you want, run it your way, don't compromise and run
it like a hobbyist should. The advertise it on other like-minded places (heck,
setup a web-ring!) and you're off!

------
danesparza
I'd argue that the maker movement is the next incarnation of "wild ideas and
weirdos". It has a higher cost of entry than the internet does (you actually
have to know a few things in order to build stuff).

Also: sharing stuff with people who would like to learn is still a cool thing
to do. Perhaps you should mentor some people and then collaborate on your own
weird ideas?

~~~
jianshen
+1! I've met some of the most creative "weirdos" in the maker community and in
particular the "hacker spaces" [1] around the world. Hacker spaces aren't as
numerous however but I love that people have been organizing more and more
mini maker faires [2] all over the world.

[1] [https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/](https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/) [2]
[http://makerfaire.com/map/](http://makerfaire.com/map/)

~~~
dingaling
One problem with hackerspaces, at least in my corner of UK, is that they are
very expensive and this acts as a filter for the types of people who go there.

For meeting an eclectic mix of fascinating oddballs, on the cheap, nothing
beats an astronomy or geology club. They are great social-status-levellers.
Executives, dropouts and just plain odd folk all chatting together.with

~~~
aaren
What's your idea of expensive, just so I can calibrate against my corner of
the UK?

------
aburan28
A internet where people do not have to think about whether or not they should
post a link on their Facebook about controversial issues and can actually be
themselves. A internet where I feel I can ask a dumb question on StackOverflow
as I progress in learning new programming techniques. Everyone projects their
crafted image to the world via the current internet when in reality they are
completely different. I could go on and on but overall I would summarize that
we need an internet with no ads, a place where we don't have to fear 24/7
about some stupid tweet from years ago being in a data brokers database
forever

------
doctorshady
Honestly? I've taken to hanging out on phone conferences with friends a lot
more recently. It's not exactly a high bandwidth medium, but there's a lot you
can squeeze into mu-law as a codec, and I'd genuinely like to see the network
stretched in interesting ways. I guess the most obvious thing for a non-
realtime discussion would be like a bulletin board; 818-260-6100 is an example
of one for jobs on a small scale.

The phone network has been around for over a century in some form now, and has
remained as open as it always has. Just how I see it, anyway.

~~~
hucker
I like this. I've started to try to call my friends more instead of messaging
them through some social network, this seems like the natural extension to
that. Does iOS or Android offer some kind of built in conference function? Or
do you use a service or something self hosted?

~~~
at-fates-hands
I thought Google hangouts allow for conference calling. I'm not sure what the
limits are in terms of how many people you can have on a hangout at a time.

I'm pretty sure this was one of the selling points of hangouts to begin with.

[http://www.google.com/+/learnmore/hangouts/](http://www.google.com/+/learnmore/hangouts/)

~~~
hucker
Over the regular phone network?

~~~
doctorshady
Most phones have a three-way calling feature. With most cell phones, it's done
via the switching equipment rather than the cell phone itself to avoid
generational loss from the mobile codec/reception issues. You can string a
bunch of three-wayed calls together if you want.

The switching equipment itself also has some pretty interesting conference
related features. There's a line of equipment called the DMS-100 that's pretty
popular for wireline stuff. It has a function where it'll pretend a conference
bridge is a ringing number when it's empty. When someone else gets on, it'll
play a short burst of ringtone to indicate it, and conference together quite a
few people. AT&T runs one of these in the bay area; 415-274-0001.

------
beauzero
I agree. I haven't been on Facebook for at least 2 months. The Verge has
become boring and more opinion than fact. News sites have become so
overburdened with ads that they don't load well. I stream radio and go to
developer sites...that's about it. Twitter -> blog is about the only useful
information gathering form factor I use for gathering news.

It's a mess out there.

------
m52go
This is my exact frustration. If you want something intellectually exciting
with no ads, no filter bubble, and no click-bait, I'm building Canon of Man.

You can sample it at:
[https://canonofman.meteor.com](https://canonofman.meteor.com)

It's not launching until Monday, but follow @canonofman on Twitter or sign up
on the site and I'll let you know when it's live.

------
dasil003
The weirdos and ideas are still there, just drowned out by the masses.

I'm not sure anything can replicate the feel of the early internet because
it's inextricably linked to the entire cultural context in which it was born,
not to mention the physical limitations that the entire world had been used to
but were newly lifted by the internet.

However in regards to the suburban shopping mall feel, I think the answer
there is movements like IndieWeb, and the general spirit of open source which
is stronger than ever. There's no rolling back the clock on the
commercialization of the internet, and the indie stuff can't really match the
aesthetics, but then again when enough people get bored punk kills disco.

~~~
seiji
_The weirdos and ideas are still there, just drowned out by the masses._

So, just like real life? Not helpful at all.

The Internet was an introvert's dream. Then the popular extroverted high
school kids took over our entire Internet media and platforms. We've lost
empires to the people who were destined to rule the world anyway. Turns out
it's easier to rule introverts online than to rule real life populations who
can fight back.

------
k2enemy
If you really want to get weird, urbit:
[https://github.com/urbit/urbit](https://github.com/urbit/urbit)

------
tgibson
I stumbled upon the Ethereum project not too long ago. It sounds pretty
interesting and possibly full of wild ideas and weirdos too...

[https://www.ethereum.org/](https://www.ethereum.org/)

------
Sakes
In its simplest form the internet is just a bunch of computers connected to
each other. So, if you are looking for a place where people can express
themselves without the fear of repercussions, all you need is anonymity.

You don't need something to replace the internet for that, just a sub space
where people can't have their writings/ideas/creations tied to their real
identity.

------
kordless
Things are far from boring if you look closely.

1\. The Intercloud. Clouds of clouds of clouds. Containers and virtualization
play a part in this, but much is left to be done in building out less-
opinionated stacks, which become deployment targets.

2\. Pay-to-deploy what used to be SaaS software onto various deployment
targets on the Intercloud based on trust levels. Enables the MSaaS (managed
SaaS) software model. Enables 'house hosting' private data.

3\. Blockchain contracts applied to MSaaS'd APIs to enable routing of data to
other MSaaS'd APIs based on privacy policies. Also applies to payments for #2
and target validation via #1.

~~~
hucker
While these things may or may not be interesting developments in the
_infrastructure_ of the internet, it doesn't really counteract what OP is
saying. Streamlined, boring, closed garden social networks and ad-filled
"news". And only the techies are left on the IRC servers :(

~~~
kordless
I tell you what is boring: people voting down responses because they don't
agree with them and then having nothing to contribute other than a lame
rationalization. Better?

~~~
hucker
You have kind of a point there, the advent of {up,down}voting on sites adds to
the dullness by putting disincentives on controversial speech. HN is slightly
better, but reddit it a great example of this. The most visible content is the
lowest common denominator of comments, often cringy jokes and quips. While
4chan has its fair share of issues, the content is often interesting (to me)
because they don't rank posts at all.

EDIT: And for the record I didn't downvote you, I'm not even allowed :/

~~~
kordless
I implied you downvoted me, but shouldn't have. Apologies. It was a blaming
statement because I colluded the downvote with the 'rationalizations'.

To clarify my original post a bit, I would say that the Internet _is_
infrastructure, and that changes in that infrastructure give way to changes in
the way it is used for all sorts of things. Once a good amount of
decentralization with infrastructure happens, we're going to see _really_
interesting use-cases popping up. Robot vacuums with cryptowallets to keep
themselves updated, for example.

------
return0
The internet has become too easy. It was interesting when it required deep
technical knowledge just to make it work, that ensured a certain amount of
savviness and weirdness among participants.

I suggest you try communities that are built around hard-to-understand
technologies.

There are definitely interesting discussions among scientists, for example,
but they 're mostly reserved for face-to-face meetings in conferences.

Perhaps the best answer is to build the next big thing yourself.

~~~
krapp
>The internet has become too easy

That's a good thing. The world is an infinitely better place now that any
idiot can get onto the internet, and does. A few nerds and greybeards losing
their sense of cultural superiority is a price worth paying.

Given that there are over a billion people accessing the internet now, there
are vastly more savvy and weird people on it than ever before, but it's
understandable if that makes it feel less hip to be a part of.

~~~
kedean
It's not a good thing OR a bad thing. It's different. The sad thing is that a
culture of real sharing (not 'social media' sharing, but actual sharing of
knowledge, life experiences, and ideas) has been traded for a place that
anyone can find any piece of information they could ever want, and contact any
person they could ever want.

I think both have very high merit, and can't really be compared. It's not a
'good thing' that we've transitioned from one to the other, it's just a change
that the old guard has to deal with.

~~~
krapp
I think you're discrediting 'social media sharing' a bit too much - that _is_
where people share their actual knowledge, experiences and ideas. Granted,
some of those people are my mother and her COPD support group, but social
media is not entirely vapid and not to be dismissed for its cultural
relevance.

Even setting that aside - there are billions of people online, and (quick
google) almost a billion websites. That's not a culture, that's a continent.
You can't encompass something like that in so simple a narrative.

------
mrdrozdov
Who needs the internet when you have Rationality Theory!
[http://lesswrong.com/](http://lesswrong.com/)

------
mikelyons
The private web, your home server, your decentralized secure/encrypted mesh
net.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
All of the above.

Mesh should have been a thing by now. Better late than never. (I hope.)

------
rajacombinator
Message boards are still pretty good for finding some genuine internet culture
... just hard to find good message boards. (Need some more interests I guess
...)

The excessive overcommercialization is pretty annoying though. There's only so
much content marketing spam I can take ... Gonna have to go back to reading
books soon.

------
WallWextra
Talking to weirdos on the internet is one of my primary forms of recreation. I
find IRC is a good place to do it.

------
minthd
curation. create you own corner of the net.

~~~
ionwake
Plug for my startup - www.sagebump.com to integrate and RANK all your
personalised social news accounts

It's alpha but check it out brah

------
adventured
You mean the Web perhaps, rather than the Internet. In this case it's a
critical distinction. There is no replacement for the Internet coming, and
it's not the source of the lameness - it's an infinite blank canvas that you
paint upon, that most future technology will rely on. Globally we've got
trillions of dollars sunk into development of the Internet's infrastructure
and the services/businesses riding on top of the Internet. The Internet will
be similar 50 years from now, to what it is today: a 'dumb pipe.' In the same
way that transmission lines don't change much, nor do water pipes.

------
bobajeff
USB Drives. Just distribute USB drives to everyone everywhere:

On the subway.

On the bus.

At college campuses.

At bars.

At night clubs.

...

~~~
chippy
What would you put on them? I've a small stack of them collected as swag from
various conferences.

~~~
bobajeff
Webpages, videos, audios, images, fonts etc. basically any format out there
that anyone can open on whatever machine or device.

------
rm_-rf_slash
This is the ultimate downside of predictive ads and content: if the Internet
only sees you as someone to give what they already want, obviously you'll get
bored with the same crap over and over.

This is what happens when we relegate all of our discovery to community
aggregators like Reddit and HN, or social media sites like Facebook and
Twitter that are, at the end of the day, there to sell you ads.

I was never into MySpace, and before Facebook came along I remember MY FRIENDS
telling me about this funny video called "Leeroy Jenkins."

~~~
return0
Maybe they should try the opposite, like facebook or twitter giving you the
least relevant content to your interests. That's how one finds rare gems

------
DickingAround
Bitcoin. Cant ask for more crazy, more potential, or less regularity.

~~~
roymurdock
"Bitcoin" can hardly be considered a community...you can watch the
prices/drama but it's basically the same as watching a soap opera.

It's a cool/potentially useful concept, but definitely not the next internet.

~~~
brighton36
Wtf? You've never been to r/Bitcoin I take it...

~~~
scuba7183
so then you're actually talking about Reddit, not bitcoin

------
abakker
I can't help but agree that the communities seem to be disintegrating around
the edges - but only in the feeling of community from the way the old
generalized communities used to be. On the other hand, its hard to find
something in real life that doesn't have an internet forum or 3 devoted
entirely to it. I feel like a huge portion of my interests can fit neatly into
existing forums that form their own specialized communities. Of course, there
is no semblance of real anonymity there, I can use a pseudonym, but it would
certainly not hold up to a determined investigator - public or private.

Of course, another trend here which really pushes things away from the
anonymity/community is that the rise of Social profiles being tied to true
identity has become a common denominator across a lot of the content sources
on the net. Mobile access has also pushed us toward sole points of access to
many of those communities. Sure, you can still log into many sites with a
username and password from any old computer, but as more and more sites become
personalized it becomes inconvenient to manage the multiplicity of web
presences on a phone without resorting to using apps that are permanently
logged in and tied to your single point of access.

Finally, the burden of defeating spambots has become nearly impossible without
some strong anti-spam membership requirements. defeating spam has become a
huge driver for anti-anonymity. The problem is, that even if you defeat bots,
the giant number of people participating in discussions virtually guarantees
that someone will post something in need of moderation under a pseudonym. A
friend of mine at the NYT said they had to implant special filters to moderate
the amazing amount of hate speech that would end up as non-sequitur comments
on nearly every article. They are not alone in that experience.

Its not so bad, all in all, but the internet is a big place now. Some part of
my thinks that when communities are small, they self-manage much more easily
since there is a kind of group-accountability. On the broader internet, this
isn't true anymore. on large public websites, it isn't true. But thats why we
self-organize into smaller communities like Hacker News. As they get bigger,
the rules necessarily become more strict because the feeling of accountability
for the community's well-being on an individual basis goes down.
</rationalization>

------
a3n
pedantic: The Internet (the public network of networks) is just fine, and
hasn't _fundamentally_ changed for decades. /pedantic
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet)

Some of the service providers of the services that run on top of the Internet
may or may not be lame, but that's a content issue, not an Internet issue. :)

------
KaiserPro
We're where we've always been; usenet and IRC.

~~~
cosarara97
As a kid born with internet access: how do you use usenet these days? Does
your ISP give you access?

~~~
a3n
A good part of usenet is in google groups. Otherwise there are any number of
paid providers. There may still be ISP or uni providers, but I don't think
that access method is much of a Thing anymore.

Some paid providers:
[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=usenet+providers](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=usenet+providers)

Once you have an account, wherever you get it, you can usually access usenet
via their browser interface, or with many email clients (like Thunderbird), or
with specific usenet clients.

I used to be on a variety of comp.lang.* groups, but I haven't accessed usenet
for years. I hear it's still more than useful for technical and other
interests.

------
at-fates-hands
I think it would be interesting to do away with search engines.

It's so easy to find stuff these days, if we could instill the idea of
discovery and actually exploring the internet again, I would dig that.

~~~
kctess5
So... Don't use a search engine.

------
jaunkst
No urls or domains. Search engines becoming deep linked discovery services for
web applications. Favicons are replaced with full size icons and structured
data for discovery registration.

~~~
gukov
This is already happening. You have to click on the address bar in Safari to
see the full URL. People google everything, even domains like "facebook.com"
or even "google.com." Gmail's favicon displays the amount of unread emails.

------
kleer001
Start a farm. That'll be quite the challenge for you.

------
Vektorweg
Its going to be GNUnet without fancy JS sites.

------
Tycho
I think a well selected Twitter feed preserves all the cool aspects of the
internet.

------
joshu
Mobile was the next thing.

------
dlss
Urbit perhaps?

~~~
phlandis
yeah urbit.net

~~~
state
I believe urbit.org is what you're looking for.

------
lsiunsuex
mobile apps

tightly policed private boutiques

------
smacktoward
Being disconnected.

------
1arity
The next big thing is the small things. All of them.

People will start talking to strangers in big cities, instead of just looking
at their phones. People will have conversations again. The phone will listen,
and suggest information at various points, evidence for your arguments,
statistics to back you up, come backs, jokes.

Strangers will actually meet other strangers in real life, first, unmediated
by any online vetting. There will be some app to enhance this process and that
app won't violate or distort the inescapable risk and reward of actually
saying "Hi" to someone you've never previously met. The next big thing is rich
annotations of the things we do and places we go.

Having sex? Your phone / wearable will suggest some useful music, idea or
other helpful info.

Visiting some new area? You'll get intelligence about interesting gatherings,
art openings, deals, parties, happening right now nearby.

At the supermarket, gazing at the cold items, which to buy? You'll get
purchase suggestions and recipe ideas to inform your choice.

The next big thing is people aren't "going to" the internet. It will come to
them.

People will get back to living normally, just normal lives enhanced with
relevant timely information.

The internet will become less overt and more covert. After a brief period of
being a visible tangible thing in the world, it will recede back into the
periphery, ever present, like a collective subconscious. It will be re-
absorbed by the world it emerged from, enhancing that world.

The actual "library index" internet ( and its interaction "searching" ) will
become rapidly less and less important once the critical mass of software,
algorithms, and wearable tech brings us this new golden age. The quiet
internet. The silent internet. The internet of nothing.

Like Seinfeld -- a show about nothing. The internet will be an internet about
nothing. That's what it has been best for anyway, pictures of cats, trivia,
distraction. Now it will be absorbed back into the culture it emerged from,
subtly modulating the rhythms of daily life that it was used for anyway.

The shouting internet, news, headlines, adverts, games, apps. The feed. The
Consumer. All that will fade away, like the fading of a roaring train. Like
the peace that returns to a quiet glade once the busload of snapping gabbling
tourists has departed. We'll all get less gawkish and more introspective. Our
interactions less "selfie and me me me" and more "you and me, here, now". And
all these companies, with their fetishisms of "big company" are going to
become, or be presented to us, as a whole lot smaller. The original idea of
villages, and geocities, and usenet, and turn of the century blogs, and lots
of tiny stuff, disconnected stuff, will come back. Zuckerberg will eat his
words, it won't be about "connecting the world", it will be about "connecting
a community", one community at a time. They'll spin it as a "return to their
roots, after all, they started as a Harvard social network", and yet we'll
all, old enough, will know that it's just spin. Google won't be distributing
"all the world's information", it will be making sense of information in "your
world." Company names will increasingly become less bombastic and more like
single letter diminutives, the way hipsters sign their emails "j". Hackers
will be obsessed with doing things that don't scale. No, really don't scale.
Ever. Everyone's ambitions will become a lot smaller, or will seem to.

We'll increasingly live in even more populated cities, and after a brief gaudy
explosive renaissance of "ALL THE THINGS RIGHT NOW" we'll value our personal,
quiet, disconnected, small world lives more and more, subtly enhanced. We'll
delight in the tiny things, the meaningless, trivial interactions. Gen Z will
look ancient with its selfie obsession, and prescient with its incognito mode
and ephemera.

The internet of nothing is coming. And not yet.

People, cool people, will actually say "my internet." Internet will lose its
"the".

An internet of all the small things is the next big thing.

~~~
sebkomianos
"Company names will increasingly become less bombastic and more like single
letter diminutives, the way hipsters sign their emails "j"." A couple of days
later, Google becomes abc.xyz. Can I have the jack pot numbers man? I promise
to give 50% to the charity of your choice. :D

Joking aside, I am seriously mindblown by this comment. Can't upvote it enough
and gotta read it a couple more times for sure.

------
mhhf
Ethereum

------
calebm
VR + WebGL

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leftnode
Hahahaha what, that's completely crazy.

