
Ukraine Tracks Protesters Through Cellphones - eu22
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/22/world/europe/ukraine-protests.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1
======
ommunist
Well, this only proves how technologically backward the Ukraine is comparing
to the US or the UK. Over here protesters can be tracked through cellphones
before they even know they are going to become protesters.

~~~
errorrrr
nope,I think that's was just to add some pressure on protesters. Telecom
companies even told that security forces was use fake cells to broadcast those
messages

~~~
ommunist
Dude, thinking is not going to change what is going on there. EU wants the
civil war in Ukraine, its organisation is paid. "Protesters" are just per-hour
hired guys, professional street muscles. Germany wants half of Ukraine. And it
always wanted. There is nothing you can do about it.

And poor security forces are the guys who are ordered to wipe "protesters" to
keep Ukraine whole body and not becoming Sudan with Russian winter. I can only
pray they succeed. Winters are harsh in Kiev.

~~~
errorrrr
Wow police supporter on HN. Even can speak broken English. Stop posting
bullshit, Putin whore.

~~~
ommunist
Thank you for the credit.

------
smnrchrds
During protests after 2009 Iran presidential election there was a lot of
concern that the government will use this sort of technology to find
protesters. Some people advised that one should remove the battery altogether
near protest centers, because putting the cell phone in airplane or even
turning it off wouldn't prevent the telecommunication companies from tracking
it. The reason they provided was simple: if it doesn't transmit any data while
it's turned off, how does it say a different message to the caller when the
called number is turned off vs when battery is removed.

I mostly forgot about it until I saw this article. Anyone here care to explain
if this is true?

~~~
conductor
When you are turning off the cell phone it sends a signal to the operator
(graceful shut down) so the operator knows that you turned off the phone. When
you remove the battery the phone has no time to send a message to the operator
about the phone going offline so the operator doesn't know for sure whether
it's turned off or it is out of the towers range at this moment.

Of course this doesn't mean that they can't track turned off phones, it's
still technically possible (while the battery is there).

~~~
Crito
It would also presumably mean that the government could compile a list of
cellphones that turned off during the protests, while not located at but
rather near the protests.

To a sane government, this information wouldn't be of much use. To a crazed
paranoid government going on purges and witchhunts, this could be all the
information they 'need' to find somebody suspect.

Of course if you pull the battery, they would also notice the phone dropping
off the network (though it would be unclear what the cause was). To a crazed
government, the difference might not be too important.

If you are ever in the sort of situation where any of this might become a
concern, I recommend leaving the phone at home, sitting comfortably on your
couch, turned on with the TV on. Of course this precludes using the phone in
an emergency, so 'burner' phones with removable batteries may become valued.

------
dobbsbob
Rogue BTS/stingray. Ukraine needs to set up something similar to the
decentralized Athens community network so protesters can turn on airplane mode
and remove sim cards which will work for a while until they jam it. Note how
every government during sustained protests resorts to hiring criminal
hooligans to randomly assault people wonder if they will be given a list of
subscribers to go visit like Bahrain did when doctors were dragged out of
their houses and beaten for having their cell radios tracked to underground
hospitals to treat injured protesters.

------
chflamplighter
I couldn't image getting this text: “Dear subscriber, you are registered as a
participant in a mass disturbance.”

Puts a bit more focus on the reach available to anyone via my reliance on tech
to "always be reachable". Good when my friends/family/customers need me but
horrible when in the hands of bad actors.

------
excellence24
Of course their top 3 cellphone providers had no knowledge of this... (our
American companies said the same thing). They probably got the cellphone data
from the NSA. (For a small fee of course, added to our black budget.)

This is interesting though and something I think we should consider if we
Americans ever get the courage to stand up to our government for it's abuses
of power. It semi-happened with Occupy but they were barking up the wrong
tree. You can only force a private bank/companies hand with the power of
government. They can stand out their all day and do whatever, but it would be
easier if a law or resolution were passed.

How do you know if someone at a protest is a 'plant' whose job is too incite
violence so as to show the protest as negative regardless of their stated
goals.

I was thinking of a system maybe, that would definitely be reputation based,
but one where you could verify someones identity while still maintaining a
certain level of privacy. Maybe something similar to how bitcoin works.
Everybody could have a public key that anyone at the protest could scan if
needed and say 'ya this person's legit, they have XXX amount of reputation, we
are connected by XX people, etc' or 'woah, who are you? you have -XXX
reputation and no one here knows you'... but this idea needs to be developed
further...

When i put my 'evil' cap on and think how I would use the data if I had all
the data in the world and I wanted to stop people protesting me, I would use
those kinds of cellphone SMS messages to intimidate people in the area and I
would want them to be divided by those who want to achieve revolution
nonviolently and those who would easily engage in violence if given the
opportunity. Taking it a step further, I would use that system the NSA made
that tracks internet browsing history especially for porn, to threaten people
that their data might be 'leaked' if they continue to protest. Or perhaps sent
messages and calls can be 'rerouted' to different people to cause confusion in
their communications. Or perhaps I'd use a few 'if-then' simulations to put
the right police officer in front of the right protestor so that violence
would be most likely to occur. evil cap off.

The rest of the world seems to be taking the lead in standing up to
corruption, but when America catches up, I want us to lead by example of how
it should efficiently and safely be done.

------
coldtea
As if only Ukraine does that. How about OWS protesters?

~~~
Mikeb85
When the US does it = good.

When a country we don't agree politically with does it = bad.

Likewise protesters attacking police with Molotov cocktails, charging their
lines with farm equipment and torching police vehicles would elicit a fairly
strong reaction from any Western government, yet the Ukrainian government is
demonized...

------
strathmeyer
The website says that I have already read my 10 free articles this month and
need to pay money to read this one. This has been happening a lot with
HackerNews links for me. Do I have a virus, or are you supposed to be rich to
post here?

~~~
superuser2
The New York Times is professional journalism. You don't need to be rich to
afford $3.75/week. This is about $200/yr, on the order of the price of a print
subscription. Working class families have been reading newspapers for decades.

Occasionally we find that professional, full-time newsrooms produce better
content than the blogosphere. Producing that content took a staff of educated,
full-time professionals with families and mortgages. I don't find it
particularly offensive that people who regularly consume their output are
expected to help fund their salaries so they can keep producing.

~~~
psykovsky
Of course, because digital edition has distribution costs just like printed
editions.

~~~
adventured
If you get the same news, and you were happy with what you were paying to get
high quality news (you're not buying a sheet of paper, you're buying the
news), then what's the problem?

Why should moving to digital mean reducing the price versus print?

Perhaps the NY Times should keep the margin difference as profit, helping to
restore their financial condition from the recent disaster it has been, so
they don't have to go crawling to Carlos Slim again. Building up their
financial position would assist in their independence as a news source.

Perhaps the NY Times should put that margin back into the business, and create
more / better content, thus more than justifying the price staying the same.

Either way, the argument in favor of reducing prices just because of cheaper
distribution, is not inherently a good one.

~~~
roin
Agreed, and this group as much as any should understand that just because the
product is made of bits and can be distributed virtually free, it should not
be free of cost.

Just like any good software company, the NYTimes should be thinking about
their price strategy in a more complex way than cost plus. And I'm sure they
are.

