

Ask HN: What's your income worth to you? - who_am_i_really

(Note - Posting here with a new account that doesn't lead to my well-known online identity.)<p>I have a chance to join a small, well-established (10+ years) company as an employee. This is a company that doesn't hire very often - only every couple of years. It's run very conservatively but successfully. They aren't big money makers, but they get by and do it while doing what they love. After going through my share of startups, where self-hate (working to death with crazy deadlines) was mistaken for passion, this crew seems a very welcome relief.<p>The company isn't a software company by nature, but they create art assets for many software companies. They are looking to expand more directly into that market and have a lot of fun projects in mind - they just want a coder of their own. I've worked with them before, and the talent at the company is quite incredible. Many programmers I know (certainly myself included) would die to be working with a team of asset creators such as this on staff. (In my experience a lot of startups are run by tech people who hire other tech people and then contract out the creative bits - this situation is the reverse and it seems like it'd be awesome.)<p>The trouble is that the job offer is low - 60% of my previous job (which was itself a reduction from the job I had before that). I believe it's as much as 50% of the going rate for software engineers in that area, even.<p>I'm presently now between jobs (which is why the offer came in the first place - they knew I was now available). If I put out feelers, I would expect I can find other offers for considerably more than theirs - but I highly doubt the experience of this place could be matched so easily. What is that worth?<p>It's an added concern because they want me to relocate and work with them in the office. I actually would like to do that. I'd kind of like to work with people in person again. After 3+ years of remote work, it can get lonely. But it feels very hard to personally justify relocation away from family to a job that pays so much less!<p>And yet it seems clear that deep down inside, I would love to try it. If I didn't want it, I wouldn't be agonizing over it in the first place. I suppose I'm just looking for advice or encouragement or perhaps shared stories of others who have given up a much larger income in search of... stability/happiness/adventure/change.
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brk
If it's a unique opportunity, you should take it.

Something else I'll throw in... I've been known to successfully renegotiate my
salary several times. Sometimes as frequently as two weeks after joining a new
company. It can be very difficult for a company to properly value and
compensate for technical talent, especially if they have not hired a lot of
people "like you" in the past. It can be easier to come on board and prove
your skillset and THEN work out a proper salary. If you choose to go this
route, also keep in mind that you need to make sure your comp is "fair" in
regards to other people in the company. If everyone else is at 60% of market
rate, then it's not likely you're going to get 100+% of market rate for
yourself. But if they understand the other jobs and pay scales better and just
don't know how to properly comp you, that is a solvable problem...

~~~
who_am_i_really
Thanks for the input! I believe that everyone is paid below their respective
market rates. I've discussed this a bit with a few of the people I've gotten
to know that work there, and while avoiding talking about actual numbers, they
all feel they could make quite a bit more money elsewhere - but choose not to.
And that, to me, speaks very highly to the quality of the opportunity here
from a non-financial point of view.

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ksvs
"And yet it seems clear that deep down inside, I would love to try it."

You've already decided what you want. So the only real question is whether you
can afford it. That should be fairly straightforward to figure out.

It's not necessarily a bad sign that it pays less. Jobs that suck have to pay
more, and vice versa.

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callmeed
Well, if the cost of living at the new location is less than where you are
now, that offsets the pay loss some.

I guess my advice would also depend on if you're married, have kids, and what
your lifestyle is like. If you're used to living at your previous means, then
taking a 40% pay cut would require a bit of a lifestyle change. Most people
wouldn't _choose_ to make such a change.

I guess it also depends on your preference between working for someone and
having your own startup. I think you can do a startup without killing
yourself.

Another thought: A 10 year old company probably isn't going to give you
equity. But, with their first in-house coder, they might get the web-
app/product bug. Maybe you can negotiate equity rights to any product/spin-off
that results from your work.

~~~
who_am_i_really
Making the choice to decrease our lifestyle is certainly a significant factor
in why it feels hard to "follow the dream." I do have a wife and kid and that
complicates it a lot. Although my wife does not work in a very lucrative field
and she's open to a little adventure, so she's not pushing against this much -
although it's still hard to have her leave her family and current status at
her current job. :/

Your last point is very interesting. I hadn't thought of an approach like
that. Hmm...

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davidw
Where's the extra money? You say they're good, so they must get good rates
from their clients. But if they're paying less than market, why is that?
Where's the extra money going? Are they not charging enough? Do they have a
founder that's raking it in? Are they just dedicating a lot of time to stuff
that doesn't necessarily generate income?

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louislouis
Give it a shot. You say you're inbetween jobs rights now so you've got nothing
to lose. If it doesn't work out you can always leave and find something else.
By the sounds of it, the company would be great to work for and you'd be happy
there. You can't put a price on happyness and if love doing what u do, it wont
seem like work.

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noodle
try and renegotiate them higher. especially if they want you to move and you
have a family, they should understand. i'm not saying to renegotiate
necessarily to market, but try and drag them up to what you think is fair, to
that balance point where you're not worried about the implications of taking
the job.

------
yannis
Accept with an if. If you willing to up the offer to ..., we got a deal.
Propose something reasonable. Also examine the reasons why your salary has
been decreasing between jobs. Is it the market?

