
Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers - mediawatch
https://www.itwire.com/security/86929-ex-nsa-man-slams-israel-for-strike-on-alleged-hamas-cyber-attackers.html
======
WheelsAtLarge
Everyone seems to be missing an important point here, especially for HN users.
Hackers and anyone supporting them are now live bomb targets. Hackers are no
longer punished by just putting them in jail. Death is a punishment option
too.

In the past, they were collateral damage now they are a direct target.

~~~
chriselles
It's my understanding that a hacking incident that principally contributes to
injury/death can justify a kinetic response.

Hacking incidents with kinetic effects are only rare outliers today, but that
could change tomorrow.

Kinetic deterrence & reprisal for hacking incidents is a legitimate option,
but ripe for significant abuse if allowed without clear attribution of hack
and/or link to related kinetic effects.

Much like how terrorism is(or should be) mostly a law enforcement function.

Hacking should be as well.

But planning for exceptions is also important.

Especially planning to ensure exceptions don't become the norm.

~~~
PavlovsCat
From the story here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19834802](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19834802)

> They claimed it housed Hamas cyber operatives, which had been engaging in a
> cyberattack against Israel's "cyberspace."

> "We were ahead of them all the time," said Brigadier General D., the head of
> the IDF's cyber defense division. "The moment they tried to do something,
> they failed."

> Israeli officials did not disclose any details about the Hamas cyberattack;
> however, they said they first stopped the attack online, and only then
> responded with an air strike.

No details, at all, except that they had already stopped the attack, and from
things like "ahead of them all the time", it doesn't exactly sound like they
didn't know any other way to prevent injury or death other than to level the
building.

> But planning for exceptions is also important.

Just because they killed people doesn't mean that it was an exceptional case
that required it, so I would start there.

~~~
chriselles
I’m generally pro Israel.

But quite happy to criticise them when and where warranted on specific
issues/incidents.

In this case, it certainly sounds like a very serious and incongruent
disconnect between the public affairs officer for Cyber and the actual kinetic
response.

The Israelis have always been pretty quick to kill or capture not only
leadership, but technical talent.

In this case, if I had to guess, there was a rare opportunity to hit apex
and/or volume technical talent the IDF justified by the rocket attacks and/or
it’s signalling that moving forward insurgent cyber will be considered a valid
target for kinetic action.

It’s also worth mentioning that the people targeted may not be hackers, but
social media camapigners/influencers.

~~~
PavlovsCat
> But quite happy to criticise them when and where warranted on specific
> issues/incidents.

It rather seemed you came up with a rationalization for the deed just because
it was done. Presented with facts, you don't skip a beat either.

> In this case, if I had to guess

That's the thing, you don't have to. So why do you? And what's with the weasel
words like "kinetic action"? If someone mistook someone you loved for a threat
and killed them, and someone else just said " _oh yeah, they 've always been
quick to capture or kill people_", and " _this may be signalling that going
forward people mistaken for threat are considered a valid target for physical
removal_ ", would you like that?

> _Every powerful state relies on specialists whose task is to show that what
> the strong do is noble and just and, if the weak suffer, it is their fault.
> In the West, these specialists are called "intellectuals" and, with marginal
> exceptions, they fulfill their task with skill and self-righteousness,
> however outlandish the claims, in this practice that traces back to the
> origins of recorded history._

\-- Noam Chomsky

When I said "start there", I meant start with the deed. Start with the
principles, and if you would like them to be applied to you and people you
love. There are things we cannot bless. We can support them, but that just
degrades us, it doesn't enoble these things one bit.

> _People who call themselves supporters of Israel are actually supporters of
> its moral degeneration and ultimate destruction._

\-- Noam Chomsky

I rather consider Yeshayahu Leibowitz "pro Israel" \-- in a sense of
supporting the heart, body and soul, not just the body come what may -- just
like I would have considered Sophie School "pro Germany", not "anti Germany".
Principles, and applying them equally, and not having double standards, those
are real, being pro this or that is just rhetoric.

~~~
chriselles
I’m not rationalising what has happened.

I’m clinically describing it.

I don’t have skin in this particular “game” so I’m emotionally detached.

Feel free to change kinetic action to violence, death, or murder.

I’ve seen and experienced enough conflict up close and personal so I hope you
don’t think my remarks are flippant.

It’s not my fight.

I’m simply describing what should be obvious extensions of violence by one
group of humans directed at another, based on their behaviour in a new
domain(digital).

Leveraging a new domain(digital) as a weapon(cyber/information operations) can
expect to have weapons from across other domains(air land sea space) used to
detect, deter, destroy them.

My posting doesn’t equate to agreeing with all of it.

But based on consistent human behaviour of one tribe towards another, isn’t
shock in seeing it more than a bit naive?

~~~
PavlovsCat
Fair enough, sorry for reading it as flippant, which I kinda did.

> But based on consistent human behaviour of one tribe towards another, isn’t
> shock in seeing it more than a bit naive?

I'm not expressing shock. I'm expressing anger and the refusal to normalize
this.

It's not like Hamas and IDF enjoy the exact equal respect in (the polite
companty of) the Western world. I can mention Leibowitz, and nobody in their
right mind would attempt to smear the man; but quoting him would be different,
and saying it in my own words ouldn't go over smoothly _at all_. Netanyahu
goes around talking about how the Palestinian Mufti gave Hitler the idea to
kill Jews instead of just re-settle them, a German protester holds up a sign
just _quoting_ Netanyahu, and gets arrested. It's been an unadulterated
shitshow for a long, long time, and it seems that as a German citizen, I can't
claim neutrality, the actions and flowery words of my government make that
impossible. That goes tenfold for US citizens. That ship has sailed in my
books. So the least I can and must do do is say "not in my name".

Also, Israel isn't a monolith, Palestine isn't a monolith. Individual actions
and reasons for them are on a wide spectrum, and are culpable for what they
do. There's warmongers on all sorts of "sides", and they use each other to
justify each other. It's not human behaviour, it's corporate behaviour for
lack of a better word. People do and justify things in groups they cannot
justify as individuals. For me the dividing line is not between various tribes
or nations, but human individuals on one hand, and _any and all_ "tribes"
(that rise to the rank of nationalistic, jingoist delusion and express
themselves in murder) on the other. Maybe that stuff was good for something
50k years ago, but we kind of have to decide if we want our technology, or
that. Insisting to keep both together might just mean we won't have either.

------
lilulo
From the article: - "The attack on this building was part of other offensive
operations that took place after Hamas was alleged to have fired rockets into
Israel over the weekend."

"Alleged", right, there were aliens firing rockets on Israel. There is nobody
else to fire the rockets. Only Hamas has them. And placement of the
"offensive" as a response on firing rockets at the Israel's civilians. Looks
like this is very offensive to protect your civilians!

~~~
aptidude187
The rule across all media is to always precede reports of Israeli killing of
Palestinians in Gaza with a number of rockets, even if 24 hours before said
rockets Israel has snipered unarmed protestors attempting to practise their
Right of Return as guaranteed by UN Resolution 194. Anyone who has an iota of
knowledge about what's going on there knows that continuous building of
settlements by Israel and the daily harassment the Palestinians have to endure
is the root of the problem.[0] I truly wonder if there's anyone who isn't
completely ignorant on the issue, who still buys the zionist talking points.

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxJd88xkBU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxJd88xkBU)

~~~
kmlx
this is such a long and convoluted conflict...

israel withdrew from gaza in 2005, but kept control of access points, air
travel etc making gaza a weird place, partly under israel control.

hamas (basically a terrorist org) literally took over gaza from fatah (a
nationalist party) in a war in 2007. then you’ve got the islamic jihadis, a
bonafide terror org, which started taking over from hamas, in the same gaza
strip.

both hamas and islamic jihadis want the annihilation of the state of israel.

i see no end in sight to the bloodshed, no matter how many civilians die.

but i do understand why people would side with israel when it comes to gaza,
and side with the palestinians when it comes to occupied territories.

~~~
aptidude187
"this is such a long and convoluted conflict" \- Not really, this is just a
simple case of settler colonialism, anyone who claims that this is a "complex"
conflict is either ignorant or deliberately trying to confuse people.

Recommended reading from Theodor Herzl (founding father of zionism) to Noam
Chomsky (secular jewish intellectual) for those who are truly interested in
the facts:

The Jewish State (Der Judenstaat), (1896)
[[https://archive.org/details/ajewishstateana00aviggoog](https://archive.org/details/ajewishstateana00aviggoog)]

On Palestine - Noam Chomsky [[https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Noam-
Chomsky/dp/1608464709/...](https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Noam-
Chomsky/dp/1608464709/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=On+Palestine&qid=1557203766&s=books&sr=1-1)]

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe (jewish historian)
[[https://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-
Pappe...](https://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-
Pappe/dp/1851685553/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=The+Ethnic+Cleansing+of+Palestine&qid=1557203807&s=gateway&sr=8-1)]

~~~
nir
Usually people who see things as "simple" when most consider them complex are
either extremely smart or extremely shallow. Providing Ilan Pappe as a serious
source tells where you are in that range.

~~~
yostrovs
Chomsky, being wrong more often than right, is also a buffoon though he
"sounds" smart.

------
CommanderData
So it's okay these days to 'label' a building filled with civilians a
'hacking' hub and blow it up? No trial. No checks. No questions asked.

Wow.

~~~
toyg
The Israel-Palestine conflict runs by its own rules, or rather lack thereof.
With the exception of nuclear holocaust, if there is a line or threshold to
cross, you can bet someone involved in that problem has already crossed it.
It’s like humanity felt obliged to have a reference implementation of all the
worst behaviour it might engage in, conveniently located at the intersection
of three continents.

------
rvp-x
The replies are somewhat ignorant of the nature of the Hamas-Israel conflict.
It assumes that the building was populated during the bombing, which is
usually not the case when blowing up buildings in a civilian area. Too high
risk of hitting bystanders.

------
meirdavis
It's pathetic watching people from the safety of their own homes commenting on
how Israel should be waging war. Israelis are being killed and if Hamas had
their way they would go over the border and massacre all Israelis in sight.

No other democracy is currently fighting a war against a neighbor that's
shooting missiles at them and located only a few km from 80% of their
population.

Israel's use of kid gloves against the Palestinians just emboldens them and
encourages more cycles of violence.

~~~
aptidude187
Poor Israel, can't even dehumanise, colonise a people, drive them out of their
homes and kill them without being criticised. You are dishing out the same old
washed out propaganda and people know it's utter bullshit. Israel is the
coloniser and the oppressor no matter how hard you push your propaganda,
people can see the evidence from too many sources now, even secular jewish
ones.

Israeli Solider testimony
[[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxJd88xkBU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxJd88xkBU)]

"The Lobby" \- Documentary exposing the vile and venomous smearing tactics of
the Israeli lobby (undercover reporter is jewish)
[[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc)]

The Jewish State (Der Judenstaat), (1896)
[[https://archive.org/details/ajewishstateana00aviggoog](https://archive.org/details/ajewishstateana00aviggoog)]

On Palestine - Noam Chomsky [[https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Noam-
Chomsky/dp/1608464709/...](https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Noam-
Chomsky/dp/1608464709/...)]

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe (jewish historian)
[[https://www.amazon.com/The-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-
Palestine/dp/...](https://www.amazon.com/The-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-
Palestine/dp/B077KDH396/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=ethnic+cleansing+palestine&qid=1557211694&s=gateway&sr=8-1)]

~~~
meirdavis
We left Gaza. There are no Israelis left in Gaza. It's not occupied. Now that
we can see what happens when we give the Palestinians territory, we won't be
doing that again.

------
toyg
Am I the only one to see echoes of Cold War stories, with spies and spymasters
respecting each other and The Game more than they do their own military
personnel...? It’s like Smiley had been told Karla’s office was purposefully
bombed.

If humans ever managed to eventually move most or all conflicts to cyber
methods, would that make us more _civilized_? Are we turning war into a game
of bits, or are we tainting the networked Utopia with our never-extinguished
bestial instincts?

~~~
rvp-x
The cold war was not honorable. You let non-US/soviets do the actual fighting.
In almost every other conflict on the world, the US and Soviets were picking
sides and supporting militants. Millions were killed.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars#Cold_War_pr...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars#Cold_War_proxy_wars)

~~~
toyg
"You" who? I'm Italian, and from a city (Bologna) who suffered hundreds of
casualties as a result of being on the actual front line of the Cold War.

Of course all wars are dirty, in one way or the other; but there is a
spectrum, and there was certainly an element of honour code in a lot of the
spying activities going on in Europe at the time - particularly in places like
Germany and England.

------
chriselles
The official IDF Twitter account @IDF posted something rather distasteful
about the attack:

“CLEARED FOR RELEASE: We thwarted an attempted Hamas cyber offensive against
Israeli targets. Following our successful cyber defensive operation, we
targeted a building where the Hamas cyber operatives work.

HamasCyberHQ.exe has been removed.”

Counterproductive and narrative losing if you ask me.

