
Ask HN: Is having videogames in your portfolio/GitHub a bad move? - samwestdev
Hi!<p>I&#x27;m an italian guy, 32 years old, currently working as an ERP programmer on Microsoft MFC based stuff (basically the most unexciting job ever).<p>I&#x27;m trying to improve my portfolio&#x2F;Github in order to have something presentable during a job interview.<p>I&#x27;d like to change country&#x2F;job (front end web dev or app developer would be cool). I also develop simple games&#x2F;demos in my spare time (Unity&#x2F;UE) and put them on Github and itch.io.<p>Should I remove them? In my country when I last interview I got treated like an fool every time I mentioned I program games. (Like the interview having that attitude like saying that stuff like &quot;in our company we make important software non useless stuff like games). Every time I got pretty disheartened to be honest.<p>What about the rest of Europe&#x2F;USA&#x2F;World? Do you think games detrimental in a programer portfolio?<p>Thank you!
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everyone
Games are some of the most complex and challenging kinds of software to write.
They are also fun to work on.

_ Do _you_ want to work for people who are too to small-minded to realise the
benefits of game programming?

_ Personally I would be honest, and try and find a job with pragmatic people,
that I would enjoy and find rewarding.

_ What if you get a job with a 'serious' company only to discover that they
are idiots and you quit after a few months?

_ In short, be yourself. You'll be happier.

~~~
babuskov
> Games are some of the most complex and challenging kinds of software to
> write.

Used to be. For many small devs/hobbyists, it's a matter of clicking in Unity
and not actually "writing" anything.

Writing your own game engine (esp. 3D engine) is complex and challenging.
Building a game in Unity is like putting Lego pieces together in comparison.

Agree with your other points though.

~~~
everyone
Unity happens to be my area of expertise. :)

_ You _could_ get lots of pre-made assets from the Unity store and cobble them
together into some kind of 'game', but you'd be very limited in what you could
do. Also more crucially you'd have diminishing returns as your project
snowballs into a spaghettian nightmare, eventually becoming impossible to work
on and unplayable for the bugs.

_ The whole writing a rendering engine in C++ and so on, isnt that big of a
deal imo, its a solved problem say. The bane of any poorly composed software
project is complexity, no matter what framework or engine you use, even Unity,
you need clean code and a suitable architecture to make something complex
and/or maintainable.

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timavr
Interviewer was not smart. Games are super positive to have in portfolio, due
to them being products with complex architecture and high UX demands.

It might be not great for pay, but generally game devs have no trouble landing
jobs in non gaming fields.

Also a lot of enterprise user facing applications run on Unity/Unreal.

~~~
juice_bus
>Also a lot of enterprise user facing applications run on Unity/Unreal.

Do you have any examples? (Not that I don't believe you, just curious)

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rl3
> _In my country when I last interview I got treated like an fool every time I
> mentioned I program games._

Just use it as a filter. If you get that reaction, you most definitely don't
want to work at that place. Save yourself the time.

In fact, if the interviewer(s) who have that reaction were to take a permanent
marker and scrawl "ignorant, low-caliber trash" across their foreheads, it'd
accomplish the exact same thing as their outward disdain for game programming.

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troels
In addition to what others have already said here (Games are super hard to do,
so any interviewer with even a modicum of technical acumen will value it
highly), I would add that there might be some cultural factors at work here.
My experience with the italian software scene is virtually non-existent, so
take my prejudices with a grain of salt, but my impression is that mainland
Europe is much more conservative with regards to credentials. You might have a
much difference experience interviewing in some of the tech hotspots. Moving
within EU is easy - hop on a plane north and talk to some companies.

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Bjorkbat
One year at GDC (game developer's conference) I saw that SpaceX of all
companies had a booth in the same area of the conference reserved for
companies looking to hire devs.

At first I thought this was rather curious. What on earth would SpaceX want to
do with game devs?

Then I found this article. [http://www.businessinsider.com/why-is-spacex-at-a-
video-game...](http://www.businessinsider.com/why-is-spacex-at-a-video-game-
conference-2015-3)

Turns out it's not uncommon for SpaceX to hire game devs. Apparently if you
can make a relatively sophisticated game (especially an online multiplayer
game), you can make software for a rocket.

So there you have it, game dev experience is good, and it sounds like that
interviewer you talked to is a liability to his company for passing on great
talent.

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senko
Other commenters pointed out that the interviewer was stupid to hold this
against you, and that this signals what kind of people you might expect to
work with - both are correct IMO. The interview goes two way -- it's also your
chance to interview your potential employer.

However, here's some additional unsolicited advice: a useful rule of thumb for
any portfolio, reference or experience info you may want to bring up during
the interview is: _Include only the information that will support /advance
your changes of getting the job you want_

As a contrived example, if you've done a tonne of PHP work but have recently
switched to Haskell and want to do more of that, your resume should highlight
whatever Haskell stuff you did do, even if trivial, and only mention PHP in
passing ("I've also done plenty of work in various other languages such as
PHP" \- this is not to say to not include the projects, just don't bring up
the PHP part).

Specific to your situation, if you've got web/app dev references, code, etc,
put them up front. But if not (probably the case here), the games/demos will
(should!) be a great showcase of your passion and ability to deliver, and are
useful as an indication of how clean / well thought out / polished your code
is. The smart interviewers will recognize this.

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Lerc
I also make games. This has never caused problems in interviews because of
technical reasons.

It has caused people to ask, "Why would you want a job like this when it's
clear you want to make games"

Best Interiview is where I made the Management guy quite nervouse because the
conversation with the tech guy was going so well It looked like he was going
to quit to go make games also.

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bg4
Your interviewer was an idiot.

~~~
ivl
I'm going to second this, massively. Games are both serious software (take a
look at how big of a chunk of the entertainment industry they represent), and
often make for difficult problems. Your interviewer was just an ass.

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swalberg
Did you frame it in terms of the problems you solved rather than the game
part? While the interviewer may have a bias against games, it could be spun as
"I learned a complicated technology to build this game" or "in order to build
this game I had to keep refreshes under XXms which required an innovative
solution to state handling". Or perhaps "yes it is a game, but I use it to
keep my skills sharp. I use the game to push my boundaries and practice good
coding skills, and bring those improvements to my day job"

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nferracin
Being Italian myself it makes me both angry and sad reading about what you
experienced in your interviews.

Beside what many already mentioned (developing games is actually quite
complex, so keep doing that and don't hide it!) I'd suggest you to take a look
at developer jobs around Europe. I'm working as a developer in Berlin and I
can tell you there are a lot of great opportunities here if you are willing to
relocate. Feel free to get in touch if you need anything! Buona fortuna!

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krapp
Games are applications designed to solve a particular problem domain, no
different than any other type of software. It just happens that the problem
they solve is "having fun" or, more cynically, "monetizing fun."

Most "game developers" don't even ship anything (currently including myself)
so what I would be concerned about is not having a game, which itself puts you
ahead of a lot of people, but what the quality of the game is, and what it
demonstrates about your abilities as a programmer. Games can be incredibly
complex and difficult to build and can demonstrate a myriad of useful skills.
As someone with a CS degree in, basically, "C# CRUD apps that talk to Access"
who dabbles in game development on the side, I definitely respect it. Even
using a framework like Unity doesn't make it easy, just easier.

Unfortunately (although somewhat deservedly) Unity development and indie game
development so there might be a bit of friction involved if that's _all_ you
have in your portfolio.

But no, I wouldn't remove them, certainly not if they're any good.

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pmiller2
Having anything in a public GitHub or code portfolio I can look at puts you
ahead of a majority of candidates in my experience. An interviewer with the
attitude you mention is conflating _producing_ games with _playing_ games.
Games present some serious technical and UX/product issues and should be
considered serious software, even if playing games isn't a serious pursuit.

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yladiz
You absolutely should not remove them. It depends on the job, and the
complexity of the games you create, but worst case if the interviewer is
personable (e.g. not your terrible interviewer) it's at least a talking point
and can show you're more well rounded, but if the job deals with the same
languages that you've programmed the games in it's even better. It's
definitely a different part of the industry but I've never heard of games
being detrimental to a portfolio, and in fact I've heard some respect/praise
for ideas from game development a previous job (doing front end web
development).

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monquixote
I absolutely love it when potential hires have developed games in their spare
time. Firstly it shows that they program outside of work which suggests they
really love programming and aren't just clock punchers. Secondly it shows that
they are the kind of person who can complete a non trivial project purely
through intrinsic motivation. Finally games can be pretty technically
challenging so if you can make something half decent you probably know what
you are doing. Any company that looks down on you for writing games is
probably not going to be a fun place to work.

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mindcrash
Someone in an Architect role here.

IMHO programming is programming.

So in practice: if you can proof to me in any way that you will actually make
my job easier instead of harder (which basically means you are able to write
easy to understand, thought out code and you are able to deliver in the
timeframe we agreed on), and you are a nice addition to my team humanwise
(which in practice means that you do not behave like an asshole, and leave
politics out of work) then you get a thumbs up from me.

But anyway, this is me. Other people might have other opinions.

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ahartman00
Did you showcase the engineering challenges or the 'features' of the game?
Meaning, were you talking primarily about code, or how fun it was to play? I'm
wondering if it was how you presented yourself.

Unfortunately I don't have any personal experience here. But there are many
gamers in the 'serious' business software jobs I have worked here in the US.
I'm watching someone play super mario galaxy right now, and it would be much
more challenging than making crud apps.

~~~
pmiller2
Why would it matter if the discussion is over the design or how fun the game
is vs the technology aspect? The former is a "product focused" perspective,
while the latter is more engineering focused. Both are desirable ways to look
at software problems.

~~~
ahartman00
This is a good point, it depends on the job however. Product focus might not
be necessary. I've had job interviews where they were concerned that I
wouldn't be happy due to not having any control/input over the product.

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charlesdm
Nope, keep it up -- they are not! However, I guess it depends on the
environment. Europe tends to generally be more conservative.

So when you're talking to a (dry and boring?) ERP company, they might not have
much affinity with games. On that same note, a game company might not have
much affinity with ERP / MSFT MFC stuff. You should probably focus on the
technologies used more than on it being actual games when talking to an
interviewer.

So you're going from one extreme, to the other. :)

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galacticpony2
It 100% depends on the company and the hiring process.

It probably helps with some of the "cool" places. I would certainly value it
as a plus in "general skill level", but that's because _I 'm cool_.

It will probably not help or even be held against you with the "uncool"
places. If it comes down to it, why would they hire you instead of the clown
that has experience in <related enterprise crap> instead?

------
ju-st
How many interviewers for software development jobs in Europe do even know
what a Github portfolio is (serious question)? The developers will at least
know what Github is. But the idea of having a Github portfolio or developing
software for fun and for free is definitely a foreign concept for many. I
wouldn't mention this at all when interviewing for a position in normal
(boring) corporation in Europe.

------
camhenlin
Whenever I see a game on a candidate's profile, I like to spend at least a few
minutes trying to play the game or get it working, review its code, and then
ask some pointed questions about it during our interview. I love seeing hobby
game dev stuff. So many opportunities for creativity, problem solving, an open
endedness

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rhinoceraptor
Why would a developer want to work on a Serious Enterprise Business
Application (tm) as a side project after doing just that all day? The whole
point of a side project is to work on something in a different domain with
different challenges and technologies, and that isn’t a big important
production system.

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andretti1977
I'm an italian dev too and it is not so difficult to find stupid interviewers
like that, especially if you are looking for a job in a big corporate. You
should filter ahead your potential employers and you should always think at
what you really want to do: corporate stuffs or something else?

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borisj
USA here. As someone who has sat on both sides of the interview table, I've
never once thought of game development being a negative thing to have in your
portfolio. I don't know what your country is like but that attitude sounds
moronic and immature.

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quakeguy
Not a bad move at all! Games and their creation are one of the most creative
tasks to accomplish in my experience, therefore highly regarded (as i came to
know).

Sociological question for anyone willing to answer, why is it seen as a "bad
skill" in Italy?

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laci27
As an employer, I can say that it's nice to have someone who also programs as
a hobby. Games require passion for programming and a good deal of know-how. As
opposed to someone who just finishes the task and goes home to do whatever
else..

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stordoff
Games are hard, and will punish bad code a lot of the time (you only get XXms
before the next frame, making poor performance easily visible). It says more
about the interviewers that they don't realise that experience is valuable
TBH.

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pixelmonkey
Are you kidding? If I see game development on a resume, I get really excited!
They showcase creativity, UX skills, and complex programming.

* I've hired over 30 programmers in my career and 2 former game developers are on my current team.

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HombreMono
Useless stuff, make a game?

If people was clever enough,they would understand that creativity and
curiosity are necessary things in order to make you a better programmer.

We are reaching a world where new ideas and new point views are necessary.
att.Daniel

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trelliscoded
I'd consider game development experience to be a plus for any programmer.

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NicoJuicy
Interviewers aren't developers. Just keep it on GitHub and don't mention it.
If it is mentioned, say you are interested in the deep software improvements
that games require

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deeteecee
If anything, quite the opposite. Don't let those fools put you down. The
challenges you've solved, if anything, have a wide range of complexities in my
opinion.

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abtinf
It seems you have found a very useful way to filter out terrible employers.

Ask yourself: do you want to work at a company or your coworkers think game
programming is bad?

