
Nissan Leaf - dools
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/
======
danenania
Having used both (flash extensively, js less so), I agree that flash's closed
plugin status completely sucks, and this is major.

That said, for nearly every other aspect of developing thick client RIAs and
complex visual experiences, flash/flex/as3 wins by a mile. From IDEs to the
display api to as3 apis in general to the true object oriented architecture to
lack of browser inconsistencies to client side storage to sockets and
networking options to modular applications.

Say what you want about flash. It certainly has its problems and it has
certainly been abused, but let's not ignore all the areas where js is still
playing catch up and will be for a long time (even it's just IE). Flash has
been a lead innovator in web-based interfaces for many years. Even if it's
true that it's in decline, completely discounting such an important technology
only shows ignorance.

~~~
treeface
"true object oriented architecture"? I agree with that, but what are you
comparing it to?

~~~
danenania
HTML/Javascript

~~~
treeface
And in what way do you find JavaScript to be less than "truly" object
oriented?

------
JulianMorrison
I'm a little worried about losing what is to me one of the main advantages of
Flash: that it can be blocked. So your all singing, all dancing website shuts
the hell up and behaves like a sedate page full of text and static images.

I mean, I can block JS, but it's irritating to have to. That's generally used
for useful things like navigation. Flash marks something up as useless pizazz.

~~~
nikster
Very interesting point here.

Maybe Adobe's next ad campaign will feature this idea: Flash is better because
you can turn it off. In fact, if you turn it off, you remove 99% of all truly
annoying ads on the web.

Thinking ahead, maybe we need a ClickToJS...

~~~
cookiecaper
We have one, it's called NoScript.

------
citricsquid
I don't understand how we've gone from "Flash is crap for entire websites"
(edit: which is almost always true) to "Flash is the devil in every
situation". It has its place, Javascript will never and _shouldn't_ try and
"kill" Flash, they're different.

~~~
benmccann
Flash is a threat to the openness of the web. I can't reliably watch video,
play games, or do anything else requiring Flash on my computer because I run
Linux. Requiring you run an OS of Adobe's choosing is antithetical to the
basic tenets of the web.

~~~
radley
No it's only antithetical to the tenets of Linux users.

edit: Just saying, people who knowingly choose Linux don't expect to use
Flash.

~~~
billybob
I disagree. The web exists because browsers and servers communicate based on
open standards. The HN server doesn't know or care what OS or browser I'm
using. I could be sitting here typing in my GET requests manually if I was
fast enough. Nobody cares. It's a protocol.

When the web relies on a technology where the "protocol" is "first install
this proprietary plugin, if it's available for your setup, and if not, screw
you," it is antithetical to the protocol-based approach.

Look at how much browsers have improved in the last few years, making new
things possible on sites. This happened because anybody can write a browser
that conforms to HTTP protocols, Javascript specifications, etc. Do you see
the same kind of improvement in Flash players? No. Because there isn't
competition.

The web is better off without Flash. Or anything else that can't have 100
competing implementations.

------
fleitz
One should note that if you pull the site up in IE it still uses flash, which
means we still need flash. Unless you're willing to say goodbye to 40% of your
customers.

~~~
baguasquirrel
Oh whatever. I can see it on me iPad. And iPhone. And Android. Who uses a
fucking computer these days anyway? Programmers? ;-)

~~~
extension
Well, you can _see_ it but you can't really _use_ it. It's brutally
unresponsive and you can't scroll the text popups. Kind of a waste to dodge
Flash and ignore the biggest reason to do so.

~~~
baguasquirrel
Wait now, hold on a minute. I thought people have been saying that Flash on
the Android was horribly slow.

------
soljin2000
Unless ... You want to record video or audio from a user. Or run more than 5
fps in IE7 (about 25% of our users). Everyone says flash is a piece of crap
but you can see from stuff like boxcar2d.com that can run for days without
crashing or leaking. It's about how it's coded. There are tons of poorly
programmed flashes out there but that doesn't make Flash bad. Flash has been
abused but it's not the devil. far from it.

~~~
soljin2000
PS the links for the video or any of the others around the car don't work.

------
jtchang
There is a desc tag:

<desc>Created with Raphaël</desc>

<http://raphaeljs.com/reference.html>

Awesome stuff.

~~~
SeanLuke
What's this then?

[http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-
car/js/js.swf__v2.0.2...](http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-
car/js/js.swf__v2.0.22.gz.js)

~~~
buster
Most probably they will have a Flash fallback. Didn't try the page in IE6
though..

------
enobrev
A lot of grandiose claims in hopes of the death of Flash around here. As
though Flash has never done anything good for anyone.

I agree that it's nice that the browsers are now supporting new features that
allow so much well needed functionality across the board - but they're really
just now catching up to what Flash has offered us for years.

Forget all-flash websites. Seriously, forget them. I like the OP's site about
as much as I liked flash intros from 2001 before they started adding "Skip
This" buttons. I'm referring to media players, socket clients, file uploading
tools worth using, vector animation, a decent programming experience that
worked across the board (AS3 is actually a fun language if you give it a real
shot).

Where would the web be without Youtube? Where would Youtube be without Flash?
How about last.fm? or Pandora? Do you remember what the web was like before
flash? Real Player, anyone? Java applets? I'll take a flash game over a Java
applet any day. Regardless if you use these media-centric sites personally,
they changed the internet as we know it - making it accessible to normal human
beings. To disregard Flash's place in that history doesn't make any sense.

And it's far from over. The browsers STILL haven't gotten media playback right
across the board. Everything's a big fat beta right now and IE is dragging us
behind as usual. It would be nice if everyone could at least agree on a codec
or two, but no. Meanwhile, flash-based media players still work just about
everywhere.

I'm happy that the browsers are catching up with Flash - truly. I loved
developing in Actionscript, and I'll love replacing it. But these claims that
Flash is somehow the bane of the internet is to deny some of the very
foundations of how successful the internet has become.

~~~
steveklabnik
> Where would Youtube be without Flash?

<http://www.youtube.com/html5>

> To disregard Flash's place in that history doesn't make any sense.

Nobody is saying that Flash wasn't worthwhile, ever. It's just nice that
something that used to be a large part of the web can be taken out of the
hands of a company, and returned to us all.

> But these claims that Flash is somehow the bane of the internet is to deny
> some of the very foundations of how successful the internet has become.

Ehhhh I'd disagree. I certainly agree that until very recently (and not quite
yet for everyone), Flash is no longer needed, and that that's a good thing.
Flash is a threat to the Internet: it's in the hands of Adobe. The web should
be open, and for everyone. But that's precisely _because_ the internet has
become so successful. It's far too important to be left under corporate
control.

~~~
gloob
> <http://www.youtube.com/html5>

So what you're saying is that without Flash, YouTube wouldn't have existed
until 2009 or 2010?

~~~
steveklabnik
Yes, and that that has no bearing on Flash's importance today. Lots of things
that seemed awesome in 2004 aren't that great in 2011.

------
moe
Only on HN you submit an _electric car_ website without further comment - and
instead of discussing the car everyone starts arguing over the implementation
of the website. ;-)

~~~
wmeredith
This was originally submitted with a title that read, "Flash is dead forever"
or something similarly sensational and was meant to point out the actual site
implementation. In accordance with HN guidelines, the submissions title has
been changed to reflect the given title of the actual submission.

~~~
mkenyon
This whole comment page makes so much more sense. Thanks!

------
mixmax
Well it appears that at least the linked site does need flash. If you click on
features and specifications the embedded video is flash (firefox 3.6)

So not quite true.

~~~
thristian
I assumed it was a <video/> element that Firefox wouldn't render because it
used H.264 video, but no... it's an ordinary Flash video. How odd.

~~~
nitrogen
It seemed to play without Flash in Chrome 10.0.648.82 on Linux.

------
Johngibb
Very cool, but I'm not sure creating a site that looks JUST like a flash site
is really the right direction... ;)

~~~
trustfundbaby
You've got to convince the masses, that you can do Flash ... without flash
first, before you can get them to stop using flash.

~~~
gloob
As soon as the masses decide that HTML5 = "Flash, but better", everything that
is bad about Flash will rapidly become everything that's bad about HTML5.

Changing the underlying technology will not change the people who use it.

~~~
ringm
It will be worse. This stuff can't be contained with simple tools like
Flashblock. Unless you want to block all Javascript by default, which will
probably break 99% websites in the near future.

------
wmwong
This is awesome. I was expecting to see HTML5 and was surprised when it
wasn't. The doctype is strict and a lot of the interface uses JavaScript. The
center navigations use svg and Raphael[1]. Either way, this is pretty sweet.
And so is the car.

[1] <http://raphaeljs.com/>

------
lyime
Nice site. We don't need Flash anymore you say?

Keep me posted when RTMP media, video/webcam/audio capture, audio analysis,
content protection is supported cross browser in HTML and JS.

------
WesleyJohnson
I was going to post this as a reply, but several people made the comment that
them duplicating what Flash could do, even if done in HTML and JS, wasn't the
right path? I can understand the hatred of Flash itself, but why the dislike
for these types of sites in general? Not everything needs to be plain text,
easily scanable, SEO compatible, clean, simple, etc.

This site is as much about marketing and generating appeal as it is about
information. I don't see anything wrong with how it was done. Someone
enlighten me please.

Edit: And somewhat off-topic - is it a requirement that production electrics
cars have to hideous? Tesla and Chevy (Volt) seem to be the only ones that
have made them actually nice to look at.

~~~
tomkarlo
It's not a requirement that they look hideous, but for mass production hybrid
/ all-electric cars, it's kind of a requirement that they look DIFFERENT.

Why? Because people who are choosing to buy a hybrid or electric usually want
EVERYONE ELSE to know they got one. That's one reason the Prius has no
"regular" version - if you see a Prius, and its distinctive shape, you
immediately know the person bought a hybrid. With other cars, (including the
Tesla) you have to see the badges on the back to know. So part of the "moral
reward" for buying hybrid, paying more and sacrificing some performance is
lost.

------
daniel02216
Their feedback form doesn't work in Safari. The site feels like a Flash site,
but doesn't use flash, which is nice!

It also works on my iPad. The 360 is a bit slow but it's there.

------
shawndrost
Why would a manager at Nissan allow this to be built? They now have to
maintain two parallel versions of their complex site. What is the non-
ideological payoff?

~~~
shawndrost
In case it was unclear, this is a serious question. I'm wondering why a
business would build a complex HTML5 site if they're going to have to build a
flash version anyway.

~~~
whiskers
I would imagine the case made was to support iPads - presumably a small
segment of visitors but I'm sure the agency devs wanted to play!

~~~
shawndrost
Oh, right -- good point.

------
antirez
What's seriously needed is an HTML5 authoring program that can be used with a
GUI and zero programming skills. Otherwise Flash will be very needed in the
future.

~~~
steveklabnik
A HNer is working on this, actually: <http://radiapp.com/>

------
radley
There a huge irony to this post. Look who made the site:
<http://criticalmass.com>

It's talent that matters, not the platform.

------
noibl
If by 'we' you mean Nissan, well... great.

Counterexample: [http://blog.phono.com/2011/02/17/how-to-build-a-voip-
based-b...](http://blog.phono.com/2011/02/17/how-to-build-a-voip-based-baby-
monitor/) (browser-based VOIP, Flash under the hood)

Bizarrely, Chrome has support for speech input on text-based forms which
translates microphone input to text on their servers, but it doesn't expose
direct access to the audio. Argh!

------
delackner
I'm surprised no one has suggested the obvious reason why making a site like
this is not necessarily "wasted extra effort" for Nissan. When Apple's iAd
platform was unveiled, they demoed... a Nissan Leaf ad. That ad content had to
be written in javascript, so it probably wasn't a huge leap to say hey let's
push that content out to the web as well.

~~~
gavingmiller
I was a developer at the studio that did this. Brands like Nissan think much
more ahead than this, and the two development efforts went on in parallel
(another studio did the iAd work.) In fact, if I'm not mistaken the leaf site
launched before the iAd did, or at least really close together.

------
elboru
We'll need flash until we have a GOOD IDE for those technologies...

~~~
timsco
This is the biggest factor in Flash going away. In our shop, we have a guys
that would never be able to code in a text editor but can bang out great
looking advertising at amazing speeds (which means cheap production costs)
because of the Flash IDE.

If you believe that advertisers can live without animation, you have your head
in the sand.

------
juddlyon
Impressive, to be sure. But terms like "anything" and "ever" are hyperbolic.
Flash isn't going anywhere for years.

~~~
dools
Yes, unabashed, brazen hyperbole to be sure. Good headline though, I thought.

The thing that really struck me the most about this is that as little as 2
years ago there would have been absolutely no chance of deploying a huge brand
interactive experience without Flash.

This is the first time I've seen a site that I thought was _obviously_ Flash
only to right-click and not see "Zoom in". I was pretty gobsmacked.

------
buro9
There is some flash on there (a video, under Specs > Features & Specs), but
this is still a very impressive demonstration of how little it is actually
required to achieve these kinds of effect.

------
51Cards
"Say hello" to a REALLY slow running website and my hardware ain't that
shabby. Running FF 3.6 It's very cool but a little too much too soon for
general consumption IMO.

------
ck2
Hmm flashblock is triggered for some reason but works anyway.

Those menus are rather distracting and complicated for an average consumer
site.

ps. OT but the "Leaf" is not available in _green_ ???

~~~
Klonoar
Flashblock might be triggered due to SoundManager 2.

Which is funny, considering in many cases it's probably Flash handling the
audio for this, and thus the title is inaccurate.

------
roryokane
Unless there’s a vector-based action game running at a decent frame rate
hidden somewhere on that site, I don’t think you’ve adequately proven your
statement.

------
Skroob
Nice and all, but the scroll bars don't work on the iPad, nor is there a way
to scroll the tag list on the left. A step in the right direction though.

------
ch0wn
I used my back button and it ... worked. Wow.

------
ziadbc
Anybody have an idea on how this was done?

Javascript by hand?

~~~
cookiecaper
As above, it uses the Raphael JavaScript drawing and animation library.

------
marknutter
I don't get why this is better than standard, non-animated text. I just want
information about the freaking leaf. By all means, make the typography and
design look pretty, but stop with the damn animation. I don't want to have to
re-learn a new interface every I want to learn about a new product.

------
paulocal
The intro video uses the video tag to play this video:
[http://www.nissanusa.com/ev/media/video/nissan-leaf-
intro.mp...](http://www.nissanusa.com/ev/media/video/nissan-leaf-intro.mp4)

No flash there. It will fall back to flash in Internet Explorer.

------
tomelders
Stop.... Hoooldup.

Replicating what Flash does in HTML, CSS, SVG & JS is not the way forward.

------
treblig
It's kind of funny that they built their (very similar-looking) iAd with
HTML5, and then went ahead with a Flash marketing site. Seems like there could
have been some shared resources there.

------
webuiarchitect
Wow! I like that!! Much faster.. and not need of any plugin that crashes every
now and then.

Plus you don't lose on search engines and history management can be left to
the browser.

------
tsycho
Anyone know how they created the scrollbar in the popup dialog boxes? It works
in IE6 as well, though doesn't look as pretty as in Chrome/FF.

~~~
mgcross
JScrollpane: <http://jscrollpane.kelvinluck.com/> Good stuff, but doesn't work
with touch/mobile devices. It would have been nice if they would have detected
the userAgent before calling JScrollpane, as default scrollbars do work with
mobile.

------
yarone
On this site, the browser "back" button doesn't always behave as expected. Ex:
Go there. Click Back. Doesn't go back. Chrome 9.

------
doki_pen
Chromium-9.0.597.84(0) and I see tons of flash on that page. I know because
I'm using flash blocker.

------
mcmc
No one tell those "punch the monkey" ad authors... at least not before
html5block is out.

------
SolarUpNote
Aside from the whole Flash accessibility debate, this site is REALLY cool. I'm
lovin it.

------
ryanisinallofus
Great. A whole new and cool way to make really unusable and shitty websites.

------
tocomment
Why are all the comments about flash? The Nissan Leaf is a car.

------
pacoverdi
Doh! Need a facebook account to "watch the electric revolution begin".

Never mind.

------
TamDenholm
Its still just as annoying even though its not done in flash...

------
redthrowaway
Ambitious, but it runs very, very poorly on my mbp (chrome).

------
dbabalik
We still do until the <device> tag arrives in town.

------
jasonlbaptiste
The world's best flash car site... done in HTML5.

------
hazelnut
but hey, you can build ugly banners with html5 / canvas too ... and the
performance will be the same. should be banish html5 too?

------
sjs382
HTML5 still can't interact with a webcam...

------
pero
Anyone know which agency did this?

~~~
timsco
Critical Mass, I believe.

------
ThomPete
Until it's possible to do audiotool.com you are not even close to be able to
replace flash

~~~
catshirt
ambitious but not impossible

~~~
ThomPete
It is impossible since you can't sync the sound properly

------
NHQ
Slick website. Ugly Car.

------
damoncali
Cool car. Oh, nevermind.

------
nika
I'm glad to see this. I for one am looking forward to the day when javascript
is at the point where it offers a level of programing ease for animations,
etc, that you get with flash. (It may have happened already, last time I did
lingo programming it was called lingo, and I am not conversant with the state
of the art in javascript.)

Or it seems that CSS is supporting animations and maybe that is a better
choice over javascript? (because the browser, I presume, can optimize CSS a
lot easier than javascript which can have arbitrary functionality.)

~~~
cookiecaper
Flash is here to stay until someone creates a designer-oriented HTML5/JS/SVG
IDE analogous to Adobe's designer-oriented Flash/AS IDE. Even after that
point, it'll be a while before we see Flash head out the door. There's a lot
that HTML5 doesn't address yet.

~~~
varaon
"Someone" might be Adobe: [http://tv.adobe.com/watch/adc-presents/preview-of-
the-edge-p...](http://tv.adobe.com/watch/adc-presents/preview-of-the-edge-
prototype-tool-for-html5-/)

~~~
Raphael_Amiard
I think it would be a dream for adobe, to be able to discharge themselves of
maintaining their player on multiple architectures on browser makers.

~~~
cookiecaper
Agreed. Adobe doesn't make much money off of the Flash Player, just the Flash
IDE, so they'd be thrilled if they could offload Flash Player's functionality
and the horrible reputation it gives them and just focus on creating a good
IDE.

------
gcb
it probably took the team 10x the time to do that this way instead of flash.

it will not work on 100% of the devices. but at least they got some clicks
from us that they wouldn't otherway.

Continuing with this rationale: if done in flash, it would have take the team
10x the time to that instead of plain html. or 200x the time if done in a
simpler html format, like a wikipedia article.

it would work on 100% of the devices... you would be able to use back/forward
buttons, you would be able to translate on google translator and still see the
site... wouldn't use all the cpu... it would load instantly for the user
(well, it would be loading the rest bellow the fold while the user was
reading/looking at the top part)... it would hopefully play well with
screenreaders... i would still be able to use the left menu even after
increasing font size... but you wouldn't have buttons that jump around.

~~~
gavingmiller
I was a developer working at the studio that did this. Development took
roughly the same amount of time in JS/HTML instead of flash.

~~~
gcb
That's awesome to know. And I really think you guys should do a writeup about
the experience... :)

I bet folks here would love it too.

------
drivebyacct2
I'm not exaggerating when I say that the 360 view was very confusing because
it wasn't really 3d. I was dragging my mouse in so many directions, only to
find, only the horizontal component affected the presented image. :(

------
jijoy
Not bad but not cool . Not upto Flash

