
Project Sunroof - Navarr
https://www.google.com/get/sunroof#
======
birken
I live in San Francisco and just had a solar system installed last week, so I
have a few comments about this.

1) It vastly overestimated how big a solar system that could fit on my roof
(by about 5x). It didn't care about chimneys or skylights (which are easily
visible through Google maps), nor SF fire code which states that you need a
3-foot empty pathway on both sides of the crest of your roof [1]. So for
almost every roof with a single ridge, this will cut out a large percentage of
the best solar real estate.

2) It didn't include local SF providers in the marketplace which are generally
higher rated than national providers and can offer additional SF incentives
and cost-savings.

So while the estimation of sunlight potential is really cool, the 3d modeling
aspect and size of the marketplace leave a little bit to be desired. This site
would probably be good at quickly seeing if your roof has any solar potential
at all, but if it does, I'd recommend checking Yelp and having a highly-rated
solar company come give you a detailed estimate (which would be free).

1: [http://www.sf-fire.org/index.aspx?page=1232](http://www.sf-
fire.org/index.aspx?page=1232)

~~~
mbostleman
I always find it a bit dishonest sounding when these things are referred to as
producing a "savings". Solar on a residential rooftop is not financially
sustainable when you consider the cost of capital and require a market ROI. So
I assume that lessors in this case are receiving a non-trivial government
subsidy. Which means, in the end, that whatever the lessee is "saving" and
then some is being paid in additional taxes that wouldn't be there if there
were no subsidy. All of which is fine for those that want to pay more for
energy that is cleaner. But people should not be given the impression that
they're paying less. If they really were we'd all have solar rooftops over
night.

~~~
cheald
This was true several years ago, but the cost of solar has come down
_substantially_ even without considering tax subsidies, and is continuing to
decrease at a healthy rate.

For example, Sunroof estimates that a 5.75kWh system would cost $21,500 before
subsidies (about $15k after, but we're ignoring that), and that it will save
you (gross) $60,000 over 20 years in utility bill costs. You can either:

a) Invest that capital. At a stable 7%, after 20 years, your balance would be
about $86.8k.

b) Purchase a solar system for that $21.5k, and invest the difference on your
power bill each month. Assuming a base power bill of $200, and the 2.2% annual
rate increase that Sunroof uses, you would invest $2400 the first year,
$2452.80 the second year, etc. At the same 7% return, then in 20 years your
investment balance would be $122.8k, and your power bills would continue to be
$0. Remember, these numbers assume an unsubsidized system.

The gain comes from the fact that after the break-even point (at year 12), you
are continuing to invest your power bill equivalent, rather than paying it to
the power company, whereas in the non-solar case, the increased power bill
will never earn you a return.

The downside is that it (with those numbers) takes 12 years for you to come
out ahead, and solar tech is moving so fast that the opportunity cost of
committing capital to solar _today_ rather than investing it and then
liquidating that investment _tomorrow_ to pay for a cheaper and more efficient
system may be substantial, but is arguably specifically unknowable. If you
don't offset your full cost, the numbers change a bit, as well (but you can
certainly compute what happens at a 50% offset for a smaller upfront capital
investment easily enough, as well). There are certainly scenarios in which
solar is viable unsubsidized today, though.

Feel free to check my math and assumptions:
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JoJxX5t7VmRhV1LDI1UF...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JoJxX5t7VmRhV1LDI1UFZ1-f_5yrX62ypS9Bi6AwfBs/edit?usp=sharing)

~~~
kartickvad
I wish "who pays for the system" and "where the system is installed" are
decoupled, via a market that lets investors finance the system and the
installation and own the resulting energy, and house owners or other sites
that merely provide a place to install the panels in return for $x worth of
free energy every month. If you're a house owner, you'll bid on the X, or
different energy companies could make you offers, and you'd pick one that you
like. If you're an investor, you'd presumably choose the site that gives you
the greatest ROI — the most sunlight, the highest grid prices, and the least
rent to be paid to the house owner (x above).

This addresses your point about upgrading. You can install the newer system on
another roof, without incurring cost of removing the older system, and
generate power (and therefore income) from both panels at once. As long as the
older system is generating more power than its annual maintenance cost, it
doesn't make economic sense to dismantle it.

Decoupling also means that if you decide to invest in solar energy, you can
have it installed in whichever part of the world (or at least your country)
gives the greatest ROI: the most sunlight, and the highest electricity
tariffs. Maybe you live in a rented house or an apartment where you can't
install solar panels. Giving a higher return will encourage more people to
invest in solar.

Other advantages of decoupling will be the ability to invest the amount you
want, whether $1000 or $100K, rather than the price of one solar system, the
ability to make additional investments if you have more money later on, and
the ability to liquidate an investment any time you need the money, or in a
financial emergency. People will also be able to dip their toes into this
market with a small investment, and see how it performs, before making a
larger investment.

~~~
IkmoIkmo
What you're describing is what every solar company does right now. SolarCity
doesn't sell you panels, they sell you 2 products. The first is electricity
from panels they own on your roof. The other is a lease of panels they own on
your roof that you get electricity from.

In essence SolarCity and everyone else bids for your roof and business through
their pricing. (which currently undercuts utilities).

And SolarCity in return is creating solar bond products essentially, where the
market can invest their capital in these roofs that SC is producing energy on,
with the monthly bills as interest.

But it doesn't solve the issue the person you replied to highlighted, which is
that it may or may not be financially advisable to 'hold out', and buy solar
when the price has come down. After all, even if you don't buy and own the
panels, the lease is still a 20 year contract. And there's no way SolarCity or
any company would reduce those to short-term contracts because there are fixed
costs that can't be recuperated in the short-term, meaning you need long-term
contracts to get an ROI. (sending technicians to replace installations every
few years wouldn't make financial sense).

So the end result right now is that yes, you could in a way (by investing in
solar companies or their financial products) invest in other people's roofs,
despite not dismantling panels on your roof, in say 5 years from now when new
installations are financially better performing than your roof panels. But it
doesn't magically make your investment in your own roof (or anyone's roof, 5
years ago, for that matter) disappear. The money is still locked up in that
roof (whether you paid for it, or locked up money by signing a 20 year
contract), and so merely decoupling everything doesn't solve that issue, and
in many ways we're already decoupling to a large extent with the
securitisation of roof installations.

~~~
kartickvad
I see. Thanks for educating me on how SolarCity, and solar companies in
general, work. Your post makes a lost of sense, and it seems that we agree on
many things.

As for money locked up in solar panels, that's no different from traditional
investments. If a factory is built, a better factory may be built a few years
down the line, rendering the first one an inefficient use of capital. That's
an unsolvable problem (unless you have a crystal ball), and it doesn't deter
people from making investments. What makes solar different?

------
d215
[http://www.zonatlas.nl](http://www.zonatlas.nl)

granted it is in dutch and made by a completely boring governmental
institution. OTH it's made with openstreetmap.

~~~
oever
It's not a governmental institution but an NGO which unites many local
governments and other participants.

    
    
      http://www.zonatlas.nl/home/over-de-zonatlas/
    

They use high resolution 3d surface information (elevation data) and weather
reports to assess the efficiency of solar panels. The map for my house
accurately shows how much efficiency can be expected on each part of the
house. This takes into account neighboring buildings and trees. The site also
calculates a number of scenarios and allows you to easily request offers and
show how long it takes to earn back your investment. They cleverly compare
this to interest rate. E.g. on my house, investing in solar now would yield
4.5% interest over 20 years (given certain assumptions).

It is a very impressive site.

------
melling
Want to see what it does, try City Hall:

[https://www.google.com/get/sunroof#a=2600%20Fresno%20St%2C%2...](https://www.google.com/get/sunroof#a=2600%20Fresno%20St%2C%20Fresno%2C%20CA&b=125&f=lease&np=18&p=1)

~~~
joesmo
So City Hall would actually save less money (12k vs 13k/14k) than the two
regular homes I tried in San Francisco. If the numbers are correct, we're
looking at $650-700 a year in savings. Not bad, but not that great either,
especially considering heating alone in both buildings I looked at ran
$150-300 / month (including summer which is hardly warmer at night in SF). Can
solar panels be installed at such a price on a regular home? I doubt there's
any incentive for City Hall here.

EDIT: I also doubt the calculations are correct considering that city hall's
roof is many times larger than the two homes I looked at, yet saves less
money.

~~~
netfire
I'm guessing you left the average monthly electric bill slider at the
$125/month position. You'd have to adjust the to what it actually is for City
Hall, which I'd think is a lot more than $125/month.

~~~
joesmo
There's no such slider on my page, only a text box. Tried disabling privacy
plugins, but they're not the culprit.

------
drelihan
Entered my info. Got a call within five minutes and was then asked the exact
same info. Company said I don't use enough electricity to make it worth it.
Wonder how much they had to pay Google for that lead

------
Navarr
Introduction Video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BXf_h8tEes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BXf_h8tEes)

~~~
ChuckMcM
A better link, although I find it interesting that this is primarily an
advertising play. Take information they have (Google maps) and turn it into a
"qualified lead" system for Solar installers. Has to pay pretty decently on a
conversion.

That said, it would be _super_ helpful if they marked addresses as "already
have solar" so I would stop getting robo-calls from solar companies trying to
sell me solar panels.

------
MRSallee
Can anyone with more knowledge of solar technology speak to this?

I know nothing about solar technology developments. I am interested in adding
solar to my house some day, but concerned about spending a lot of money today
for solar panels that will either (a) be much cheaper in 5-10 years, or (b) be
replaced by much more effective panels in 5-10 years.

Assuming that the economics of it are the only motivation for going solar, and
that with current technology and pricing the panels pay for themselves only
after ~10 years, am I better off waiting a few years to get more
efficient/cheaper panels, or is it unlikely we'll make significant
advancements in these areas, and/or do current government incentives (which
may be ephemeral) make up for the advantages of future tech?

~~~
toephu2
If you do go for solar just make sure you install it before December 31, 2016
as that's when the 30% Federal tax credit expires (note: this is if you buy,
not lease the panels. Leasing does not earn you the 30% credit).

~~~
stannius
The 30% federal tax credit does apply to leased systems. It's just that the
leasing company gets the credit "on your behalf" (also known as keeping it for
themselves) but includes it in the calculation of how much to charge you as
the lease payment.

------
giarc
Off topic but the Google Sunroof logo is very similar to MyHealth program logo
in my province ([https://myhealth.alberta.ca/](https://myhealth.alberta.ca/)).

------
iamcurious
For those who got 404 from their IPs:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BXf_h8tEes](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BXf_h8tEes)

------
uptown
Are firefighters any less likely to enter a house fire where the roof is
covered in heavy solar panels? I've heard stories, but never dug into whether
it was anti-solar FUD.

~~~
VLM
It smells of the anti-hybrid astroturfing from a decade or so ago where
numerous Ford and GM employees would be glad to tell you on social media that
if you get into a car accident in a hybrid, emergency services will leave you
to bleed out and die because its a hybrid so you should have bought a SUV or
truck like a RealAmerican(tm).

My father in law did the volunteer fire dept thing in his rural area and its
very depressing how quickly a typical house becomes unsaveable in a fire. So
it is true that most houses with solar panels, in a fire, will end up a total
loss, but that's true of most houses ... period, nothing to do with solar
panels.

My advice from the frozen north is solar panels are extremely light weight
compared to slush/snow covered shingle roofs, which don't seem to slow down
firemen very much. The total mass of a couple inches of rain soaked slush snow
is unbelievable, many thousands of distributed pounds on a typical roof.

~~~
dreamcompiler
Everything above is correct. (I'm a volunteer firefighter.) Firefighters
nowadays are trained to deal with the high-voltage DC that's present in hybrid
and electric cars. It may take a little longer to extricate a victim, but it
won't stop us. As for houses, we won't bother entering a burning residence _at
all_ unless we're likely to find a person still alive, or the nature of the
fire is such that the danger to us -- with our PPE and training -- is minimal.

~~~
mikeash
I assume part of the training is how to locate the right stuff to cut to shut
off the high-voltage connection? Have you ever had to do that in practice, and
if so how hard is it on a car that's been mangled?

~~~
dreamcompiler
The car manufacturers use bright colors (typically fluorescent orange) on
cables that carry high voltage. We don't cut them! Too dangerous. Instead we
avoid them, and assume that the car is energized.

[http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/files/research/research%20founda...](http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/files/research/research%20foundation/research%20foundation%20reports/for%20emergency%20responders/fftacticselecveh.pdf)

~~~
mikeash
I know you wouldn't cut high-voltage wiring, but I know at least on a Tesla
there's a low-voltage loop exposed for firefighters to cut, which then
isolates the high-voltage system as well as disabling the air bags and such.
That's shown on page 10-13 here:

[http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/downloads/en_...](http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/downloads/en_EU/model_s_2014_emergency_response_guide.pdf?1505)

I have no idea if this is a common thing or not. Anyway, thanks for the PDF,
very interesting stuff. Assuming the car is energized seems sensible. Even
with a loop like Tesla has, I imagine you can't count on that having the
intended effect after the car has crashed.

------
jvm
Forgive my ignorance, what does one do during non-insolated hours? Do solar
cells typically come with battery packs or does one just pull from the grid?

If the latter then the cost savings are a bit less impressive than stated.

Also can you put power back into the grid in San Francisco? Is that benefit
included in the cost savings estimate?

~~~
thrownaway2424
Solar power systems don't necessarily come with batteries but a decent
installation company should be able to propose and implement an integrated
system. The Tesla battery pack is an example of some recent innovation in that
area.

You can sell power into the grid but PG&E only has to pay you wholesale rates,
3-4 cents per kwh, not what they are charging you to take the same amount of
energy out, which is 34 cents per kwh at the top tier. It's basically a scam.
You don't want to overbuild on the assumption that selling the surplus would
be profitable.

~~~
jsprogrammer
Is there no real solar power market then? If your local utility is a monopoly
then you basically have to accept whatever the utility wants to pay you (even
far below 'market' rate). You have no power to negotiate, only capitulate or
try to get the local regulator to enforce fair trade.

~~~
_delirium
I suspect you'd fare pretty badly in a market, even if a better one existed.
In Texas's deregulated electric marketplace, the market price for large-scale
solar installations selling into the grid has fallen to around $0.05/kWh.
Power from a single small-scale residential installation with less reliable
delivery is probably worth less than that.

~~~
ZeroGravitas
Depends on how much "better" the market is e.g. if it priced in the greenhouse
gas externalities, the avoidance of transmission losses and grid upgrades etc
then solar may be worth triple the residential rate. I believe a couple of
states have calculated "value of solar" to use as part of their grid
regulation, though specific factors like mix of gas and coal production and
projected grid expansion factor into this.

~~~
jsprogrammer
Any reasonable grid would also be wired such that the power you generate will
first go to your neighbors, if they need it, instead of 'round-tripping' to
the utility and back. So, the utility is taking a huge cut even though it
isn't really a factor in the transaction.

There are of course large-scale infrastructure costs (you get to fail-over to
nuclear/coal/gas/wind/other), but it seems like all of those things should be
accounted separately instead of all being lumped into two line items on a
monthly bill from your local monopoly.

------
justplay
404 when accessed with Indian IP

~~~
krisgenre
Same even with a Canadian IP.

~~~
josu
Also Mexico

------
Rexxar
For those with 404 errors, it works if you add "?hl=en" at the end of the URL.
[https://www.google.com/get/sunroof?hl=en](https://www.google.com/get/sunroof?hl=en)

------
DirtyAndy
Another take on this sort of thing:
[http://app.dumpark.com/sunlight/](http://app.dumpark.com/sunlight/)

The guys behind this apparently wanted to know the best place to go for a beer
at any time of the day. They use the zenith of the sun, the surrounding
landscape and the surrounding buildings and have it modeled throughout the
year. I think they then realised there may be more useful ways to use this
data.

------
swalsh
Weird, it says it covers Boston but when I put my Boston address (single
family in the city of Boston itself) it says they haven't reached the address
yet.

~~~
arscan
I live just outside Boston and it worked for me (although it did consider my
deck as part of my roof, which grossly inflated the estimate). Technically,
they say "greater Boston area", so perhaps they don't actually include Boston
itself.

------
aps-sids
It's a 404.

~~~
miyuru
[https://www.google.com/get/sunroof/about/](https://www.google.com/get/sunroof/about/)

------
jdalgetty
Not available in Canada it seems

~~~
Navarr
Not even available in most of the US.

It's a "start"

~~~
kuschku
No, like, in Canada and Europe the site just returns 404.

------
larrys
They use 20 years and in the past I have heard that the average time for home
ownership is typically 7 years. I don't know the true figure today (wasn't
able to find it when I just searched) but for most people a 20 year payback is
way to long and I would imagine this certainly contributed to lack of adoption
of solar in addition to other factors obviously.

Edit: Note this: [https://www.google.com/get/sunroof/faq/#financial-
considerat...](https://www.google.com/get/sunroof/faq/#financial-
considerations)

~~~
rconti
It will raise your property value though.

------
nimitkalra
Risks to getting solar power (according to Project Sunroof) are something to
consider.

> As with any investment, there are some risks, though a well-installed system
> will make most risks extremely rare. Risks include PV systems catching fire,
> installations leading to roof leaks, theft, obsolescence, and hail damage
> and/or wind damage to the solar system itself.

> Fast-growing trees can shade solar installations, reducing production over
> time. Utilities can change how much they charge their customers for
> electricity, changing the savings from solar.

------
siddhartpai
Here is a link that doesn't 404 :

[https://www.google.com/get/sunroof/about/](https://www.google.com/get/sunroof/about/)

~~~
MichaelGG
Holy shit, Google is actually that idiotic/incompetent. 404s depending on its
interpretation of my IP "location". From US (well, US IP that Google believes
is in Hungary, because Google sucks as localization) it works, from other
countries it doesn't.

Amazing.

------
shogun21
So Google isn't trying to replicate Solar City, this is just an analysis tool
if your home would be viable for solar panels. Almost like a middle-man for
solar panel providers?

~~~
melling
They are simply trying to reduce the resistance to solar energy adoption. If
people can perform discovery and analysis in a fraction of the time, those who
will benefit will more likely do it. Take a 10 hour process and reduce it to
30 minutes, for example. Same idea as a one-click checkout.

~~~
bri3d
They're also trying to make money. Warm, qualified solar leads are worth
hundreds or more.

------
danielcljc
A similar site with more geographical coverage, but less computer vision.

[http://www.canisolar.com/](http://www.canisolar.com/)

------
djb_hackernews
I was recently thinking about a project to show how easy it would be to power
the entire US on solar panels. It actually wouldn't require much land, in fact
if you put panels on every building top and parking lot you'd be almost there.
What I was imagining was something that'd show you "ideal" spots for solar
farms. Ideal meaning proximity to population centers, orientation of land,
environmental impact, etc.

~~~
thrownaway2424
If you just paved over Edwards AFB with PV panels you'd have 50% of US
electric energy demand, and that's assuming a relatively modest 6kWh per day
per square meter.

------
vishalzone2002
would be amazing to see sunroof and tesla power wall combine efforts on
this...

------
kirk21
How do they make these maps? Do they have satellite images of different points
of (sunny) days and run the analysis that way?

~~~
ww520
Extrapolation. Use the time on the satellite photo to get the time reference,
and thus where the sun is and how much sunlight going at a direction. Use the
location and direction of the house get a sense of the facing of the roof. Use
color level of the bright and shade sides to estimate the roof pitch incline.
Given the roof's area, direction, and pitch, it's not hard to estimate the sun
light received.

~~~
ucaetano
Far easier, they have 3D models of all the buildings already, as well as
weather info. They just need to determine what is roof, and calculate the
exposure.

------
pilom
Other than the "buy now" aspect, this doesn't seem any better for calculating
solar savings than [http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/](http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/) I used
PVwatts when sizing my home system in Denver and thought it did a great job.

~~~
Navarr
It's "easier." I just logged into PvWatts, knowing practically nothing about
solar, and I'm confused at Step 2. There's a billion variables that it wants
me to fill out instead of trying to calculate them for me for optimal results.

~~~
gregable
Agreed PVWatts is more accurate, and it's what a solar installer is actually
likely to use when doing a roof assessment. But to use PVWatts you need to
input things like the tilt and orientation of your roof, the size of the
system you want to build, the cost of power from your provider, inverter
efficiency, etc. This asks for your address and your monthly electricity bill
to give you a rough estimate, both of which homeowners are much more likely to
know.

------
cookiecaper
They really need to get Florida mapped. Florida is a great candidate for solar
power, but the state government is pretty clearly in the power utility's
pocket and they work to make it very difficult for solar providers out here.

------
vblord
Wow. I can't believe how expensive solar panels are. This really is a great
tool to give you an idea how much solar panels would cost. What about wind...
does anyone know of any affordable residential wind turbine solutions?

~~~
jpollock
Residential wind has some issues:

1) Performance - best performance is when the wind blows in a straight line,
houses and other features will deflect it making it turbulent.

2) Noise - turbines are noisy, you're not likely to have neighbors appreciate
it.

3) Mounting - Mounting one requires either a pole, or it can be mounted to the
roof. However, roof mountings tend to cause issues (read damage) due to
vibrations transferred through the mounting.

Not good for a residential neighborhood, but perhaps if you've got several
acres of clear land?

~~~
wereHamster
Aren't there turbines with a vertical shaft, which don't need a large tower? I
saw one a few months ago, built especially for city rooftops where you don't
have that much space and generally need something not that expensive. You'd
still have the problem of turbulences though (i.e. non-optimal performance
generation)

~~~
thrownaway2424
Yes but vertical axis windmills take more ground space and make even more
noise than their horizontal-axis counterparts.

------
ljk
This seems pretty cool, so any downsides I'm not seeing?

~~~
willyk
Agreed, this made my day. IMO only downside is that we don't have more of this
sort of innovation happening at a smaller scale (akin to PG's recent tweet
about the maturity of self driving cars relative to early versions of Google.

------
jonknee
This could be the source of an interesting direct marking mail campaign by an
enterprising solar installer. In the mailer you can list actual numbers.

------
listic
Why are so many people in the USA live in individual houses rather than
condominiums (apartments)? The latter is just so much more economical.

~~~
jseliger
Because zoning codes mandate it: see _The Rent is Too Damn High_
([http://www.amazon.com/Rent-Too-Damn-High-Matters-
ebook/dp/B0...](http://www.amazon.com/Rent-Too-Damn-High-Matters-
ebook/dp/B0078XGJXO)) and _The Triumph of the City_
([http://www.amazon.com/Triumph-City-Greatest-Invention-
Health...](http://www.amazon.com/Triumph-City-Greatest-Invention-
Healthier/dp/0143120549)) for more.

The short version is this: Property owners now have shocking amounts of
control over what their neighbors do with property. Owners, especially of
single-family houses, elect officials who restrict development through zoning
and similar means. Height limits and parking requirements effectively mandate
single, detached housing in most of the U.S.

This only really got started in the 70s (see
[http://jakeseliger.com/2013/07/03/jane-jacobs-is-
everywhere-...](http://jakeseliger.com/2013/07/03/jane-jacobs-is-everywhere-
even-when-you-dont-see-her/)), and it didn't get really bad until the 2000s,
when the shift back to cities ran into insane urban zoning rules to produce
huge affordability crises. By now, most developers who dare to build condos or
apartments have to build luxury apartments:
[http://www.wsj.com/articles/rents-rise-faster-for-midtier-
ap...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/rents-rise-faster-for-midtier-apartments-
than-luxury-ones-1439769468) because that's the only way to make the economics
work.

In the meantime, much of the population growth has shifted to Sun Belt cities
in Texas, Arizona, Georgia, and Florida where development is easier and/or
simply sprawls more.

------
meentsbk
Seems also very similar to
[http://www.mapdwell.com/en](http://www.mapdwell.com/en)

------
dicroce
I live in Fresno, AKA, the surface of the sun. It says my yearly savings on a
leased system is $2300! Wow. I may be installing solar soon!

~~~
minthd
What's the difference for you , between leasing and buying ?

------
thom_nic
I've seen a similar project where it lets you navigate to an address in google
maps, shows the satellite image, then lets you draw an outline of your roof.
(I can't remember if you had to estimate the roof angle or not.)

I wonder if this is this "not available" in many areas because Google is using
machine vision to automatically compute roof metrics, or if it's because they
don't have rebate & utility info for many markets.

------
toephu2
Remember the 30% federal tax credit expires at the end of 2016. Only valid if
you buy not lease your panels.

------
patrickmclaren
It seems to think my apartment building is a parking lot - there's no heat-
map.

------
thuruv
Link dead. . Google error. .

~~~
bliti
I'm also getting an error. Strange to see a google page down...

~~~
thuruv
See justplay's answer.

[https://www.google.com/get/sunroof/about/](https://www.google.com/get/sunroof/about/)

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toocute2care
Anyone have any ideas on the computer vision techniques used here?

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minthd
So how big of a business this could be for Google ?

~~~
sologoub
Solar lead gen (and this is a very fancy form of lead gen) is a reasonable
size business within greater lead gen industry, but I doubt this will be noted
for the revenue potential in any of Alphabet earnings calls.

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Mithaldu
Dear Google, you make me feel really uncomfortable when you share a video with
the world wherein you describe a project which you will make for "the
country".

~~~
srtjstjsj
Where does it say "the country" ?

~~~
Mithaldu
Look for the youtube video. They say it at the end.

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fakename
My pg&e bills have never surpassed $50/month, so project sunroof convinced me
that solar is not a good investment!

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andyl
Fusion of maps, 3d modeling, electricity & lease rates, solar intensity,
installers. Easy to use. This feels like something new and powerful.

For society: I wonder if it is safe for so much power to be concentrated in
one organization.

As a technical accomplishment: I'm impressed.

~~~
oaktowner
But Google doesn't have power over electricity and lease rates or lists of
installers -- they're just using publicly available data.

There are other sources for maps data, and many people have 3d modeling
software.

So I'm not sure how this is "so much power" concentrated in one organization.

~~~
andyl
To me, what makes it powerful is the ubiquity - the 'full take' ness of it
all. Sure the app is solar-related data, just for a few regions. But could
include whatever data Google chooses, expanded to the whole world, for
whatever audience Google chooses.

I've worked with aerial surveillance systems, the types used on police
choppers. Put the crosshairs of the flir camera on a house and it will tell
you all kinds of stuff: age/race of occupants, arrest records, warrants, tax
status, etc. Amazing for LE, but a bit big-brotherly for my taste.

In the wrong hands, in the wrong circumstances, data fusion has incredible
potential for abuse. IMHO. :-)

~~~
calciphus
But if the data is already public, surely making it more widely available
devalues it as a means of control or coercion?

You can blackmail me if you know something no one else does. You can't if you
know something everyone else does.

Services like this fix asymmetric access to information. They're not revealing
anything new.

~~~
andyl
Normal citizens do not have the ability to perform data-fusion like Google or
a Government Agency. Services like Sunroof give just a tiny window into what
they know about you. Hardly anything could be more asymmetric.

I believe the potential for abuse exists. Everything is fine now (here in
California). But when the next crisis comes, data-fusion can be a powerful
tool for authoritarians to control their opponents and suppress dissent.

~~~
toomuchtodo
> Normal citizens do not have the ability to perform data-fusion like Google
> or a Government Agency. Services like Sunroof give just a tiny window into
> what they know about you. Hardly anything could be more asymmetric.

If you're a normal citizen _who has technical skills_ , yes, you can do
exactly the same data extrapolation with publicly available datasources.

~~~
andyl
Well then - prove me wrong. Build a service like Sunroof, or like the
surveillance app I described earlier in this thread.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Me noting that it can be done doesn't mean I'm going to waste my time building
a similar app out while Google's service is still available.

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rwc
Shouldn't this be the "S" or "P" in Alphabet? Why is this a Google project?

~~~
ChuckMcM
Because its "Google Maps advertising", the project is to help Google Maps make
a bit more money by selling solar installs via their tool. The "G" company is
all about the advertising :-)

