
Electrical brain stimulation beats caffeine and the effect lasts longer - Libertatea
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/19/electrical-brain-stimulation-caffeine
======
Xcelerate
Something about electrical brain stimulation freaks me out. That, along with
ECT (electroconvulsive therapy). I suppose it's hypocritical of me to not fear
substances such as caffeine, alcohol, or antidepressants, but the idea of
sending current through an organ as sensitive as the brain makes me wary.

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duaneb
ECT can be very therapeutic—yes, it induces brain seizures (which is the
point), but it helped me a lot.

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stevenjohns
Please continue. Very interested.

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duaneb
Sorry for the delay—

ECT has been construed poorly in the media, typically as abusive towards
patients (or as a threat). However, it's a legitimate technique that's been
proven in clinical trials repeatedly. In popular lit, you can read about the
experience of going through (and receiving help from) ECT in Sylvia Plath's
The Bell Jar; I've personally experienced a thorough ECT treatment, and her
depiction of the relief (the titular bell jar imprisoning her/suffocating her
is lifted to sweet relief).

Medically, it's introducing small (but seizure-inducing) voltages to the
brain. The patient is typically given a muscle relaxant and/or a sedative for
the duration of the administration. They are tied down—not to stop the patient
from resisting, but to stop them from hurting themselves during the
administration through involuntary muscle movements. This is repeated,
multiple times in a week, for several weeks until being able to discern either
a positive effect or lack thereof.

When I last researched, it was not entirely understood why this treatment
provides such a fundamental relief. One theory (I tend to hold this one, as it
just makes sense) is that some peoples' depression emerges from an
overconnected brain, seeing patterns and associations that others do not (as
easily). Under this model, the ECT severs some portion these connections and
brings "quiet" to the depressed person's brain; again, this is similar to what
I have personally observed in myself.

I should note, the ECT is a serious treatment with long-term neurological
effects. Short-term memory loss is common, with other complications being much
more rare. It should not be taken lightly as it can cause perceptible,
permanent changes to the person's emotions, memory, personality, and cognitive
ability, with by far the largest symptom being impairment of short-term
memory.

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amckenna
I wish they would release the placement they used for the testing. I would be
interested in trying this out at home with my tDCS device.

My guess is they are using one of the following placements:

Accelerated Learning (DARPA) F10/Left Arm -
[http://tdcsplacements.com/placements/accelerated-
learning/](http://tdcsplacements.com/placements/accelerated-learning/)

"Savant Learning" (Chi & Snider (2011)) T4/T3 -
[https://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS/comments/2e7idx/simple_montage...](https://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS/comments/2e7idx/simple_montage_list_with_electrode_placement_and/)

~~~
gwern
Fulltext:
[https://pdf.yt/d/mdyfCUYD6xQyYhal](https://pdf.yt/d/mdyfCUYD6xQyYhal) /
[https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1afsa8aeawlzmw/2014-mcintire.pdf?...](https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1afsa8aeawlzmw/2014-mcintire.pdf?dl=0)
/
[http://lib.gen.in/next/MTAuMTAxNi9qLmJycy4yMDE0LjA0LjAwOA==/...](http://lib.gen.in/next/MTAuMTAxNi9qLmJycy4yMDE0LjA0LjAwOA==/10.1016@j.brs.2014.04.008.pdf)

Placement isn't that interesting: F3->bicep (pg2).

~~~
amckenna
Thank you for the links Gwern!

You're right, the placement is the same as previous studies. Though from what
I remember those were testing for the alleviation of depression, so it's nice
to see there are other positive effects with that placement.

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the_cat_kittles
“This type of image analysis task is not well suited to automation. There’s no
computer algorithm that can go in and autoselect targets for you, it’s a human
endeavour. If we can help people pay attention for long periods of times,
that‘s really important,”

at the very least, they should save the images and targets to use as training
data, since that's being generated manually already. then they could see how
predictive of a model could be generated, instead of just guessing that it
would be bad.

~~~
domdip
They do. tDCS isn't exactly the first thing that's been attempted here.

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hansjorg
NPR Radiolab had a story on this recently [1] where amongst other things, a
reporter visits a US military lab and tries sniper training with and without
electrical brain stimulation. Pretty interesting.

1: [http://www.radiolab.org/story/9-volt-
nirvana/](http://www.radiolab.org/story/9-volt-nirvana/)

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devindotcom
Doesn't like 30 seconds of exercise beat caffeine as well? Seems like if you
just want a jolt of energy and cognitive capacity, coffee is a bad choice. It
is, on the other hand, delicious.

~~~
dreamweapon
_Doesn 't like 30 seconds of exercise beat caffeine as well?_

Oh, definitely. As with getting an extra 45-60 min of sleep (or at least
_quieter_ sleep, without drinking excess alcohol beforehand) for a great many
people. That's kind of the whole point about what's wrong with the results
claimed in the article.

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Jonovono
Has anyone tried the Focus device? [http://www.foc.us/](http://www.foc.us/)
Curious to hear any feedback.

~~~
JDLeadam
Has a lot of safety issues that became apparent with their first model.
Hopefully they've fixed it with this one. Otherwise there are other devices on
the market that are just as good that I would reccomend. [http://www.trans-
cranial.com/](http://www.trans-cranial.com/)
[http://thebrainstimulator.net/](http://thebrainstimulator.net/) or even
[http://www.apexdevice.net/](http://www.apexdevice.net/)

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oblique63
I've been wondering, has there been any research directly comparing the
effects of tDCS with modafinil and/or any other nootropics like piracetam?

~~~
amckenna
I was interested in the same question but there hasn't been any research as
far as I have found. There are anecdotal accounts in various tDCS communities
such as /r/tdcs

~~~
lincolnpark
There's a guy named Sterling Cooper who is doing some interesting work on
tDCS. [http://cogtech.net/blog/2014/07/interview-with-sterling-
cool...](http://cogtech.net/blog/2014/07/interview-with-sterling-cooley/)

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dreamweapon
_Researchers in the US have used electrical brain stimulation to boost the
vigilance of sleep-deprived military personnel working on an airforce base._

Knowing the U.S. military, rather than addressing the root cause of the issue
(namely: the totally senseless cult of sleep deprivation in the armed forces
-- despite the ample research showing the mental and physical damage it
causes), they'll start offering, what shall we call them? -- special
"performance-enhancing" helmets. First on an optional basis, but then on a
not-so-optional basis -- to administer optimally measured voltage, at
optimally timed occasions.

From there it's a short hop to having these helmets (by then no longer
optional at all) administer other kinds of signals, directly to the soldier's
brains: to relay orders, identify targets... and to tell them when to pull the
trigger.

~~~
wdr1
> Knowing the U.S. military, rather than addressing the root cause of the
> issue (namely: the totally senseless cult of sleep deprivation in the armed
> forces

I believe the root cause is that the military prepares for war, and in war you
can't schedule breaks or nights of rest.

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jfoutz
That really really depends on how well you prepare.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Well but if you look at it from another angle, you can simplify your logistics
if you can train soldiers to not need regular sleep breaks - and that is of
value during war.

If one is to believe Suvorov, the Soviets designed their logistics so that
they didn't have to ship food and sleep bags to the front lines - soldiers
were expected to fight three days without food or sleep, and then retreat to
have few days of break with as much food and sleep as they wanted, while the
next wave of well-fed and fully rested soldiers was sent in their place.

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ericcumbee
I wonder if this might have future applications as a treatment for Attention
Deficit Spectrum Disorders. I found this line particularly interesting

“I think the reason we’re getting these long-term effects is they are making
some longer-lasting changes to the neural connections,”

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debacle
I've been really interested in tdcs for a long time, simply out of
curiosities' sake, but the tdcs subreddit is private and there aren't many
good resources for people who aren't sure they want to commmit to the heavier
stuff.

~~~
rms
It's open. [http://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS](http://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS)

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dia80
One of the related articles at the bottom references the paper "Transcranial
stimulation of the developing brain: a plea for extreme caution" [1] I would
be quite interested in give tDcs a go but the tail risk of making some
permanent brain change freaks me out.

[1]
[http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00...](http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00600/full)

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nlh
_" There’s no computer algorithm that can..."_

"Yet", my friends, "yet".

I love reading quotes like that because it speaks to pure opportunity. Someone
will eventually figure out an algorithmic solution to X, and that should
remind us all how wrong the "all the good ideas have been done" line of
thinking really is.

~~~
georgemcbay
What you're saying is true, but to be fair this really is just about a worst
case scenario for automated image recognition because it is unclear what is
being looked for but "you'll know it when you see it".

Solving this in a way that doesn't generate an enormous amount of false
positives requires something very close to a general purpose AI.

~~~
Otik
Uh, why does it look like this comment thread got lost and ended up on the
wrong article?

~~~
georgemcbay
I'm going to guess that it looks like that because you only read the headline
and not the article?

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astrodust
Interestingly, science fiction author Larry Niven called it decades ago.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_(science_fiction)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_\(science_fiction\))

~~~
gwern
tDCS is no more wireheading than electroshock therapy for depression is
wireheading.

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neals
I've just switched from coffee to caffeine pills. This sounds like something I
need.

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JDLeadam
www.thebrainstimulator.net Been in business less than a year. Approaching 1/2
mill in sales.

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kleer001
Want!

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maw
A shocking result. Hook me up!

