
United Airlines Lost My Friend's 10 Year Old Daughter And Didn't Care - Brajeshwar
http://bobsutton.typepad.com/my_weblog/2012/08/united-airlines-lost-my-friends-10-year-old-daughter-and-didnt-care.html
======
chimi
This is a problem bigger than United -- which has a lot of problems. This is
what you get when you subsidize bad companies that need to fail. United needs
to fail so someone better can take over. The moral hazards are ruining the
country.

I saw it recently with farmers struggling from the drought. Compare this
farmer: <http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7417774n> who has acres full
of hay that don't do well in the drought to this farmer who planted a solid
base of drought tolerant sorghum
<http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7417664n> in addition to his corn. The
second farmer is diversified. He's making smarter decisions with his farm, but
because he wasn't hit as hard as other farmers who aren't making good
decisions with their land, he's not going to get as much compensation for
failed crops. That first farmer needs to go to work for the second farmer so
he can learn better and more profitable methods of farming and we will all
benefit -- including him. Watch the two farmers. Look how worn out the first
one is compared to the second one. The first farmer is working _harder_ the
second farmer is working _smarter_. We need to reward that.

The same thing with United. United Airlines was the largest recipient of cash
grants from the US after 9/11, getting $774.2 Million [1]. If the US hadn't
kept United alive over the past 10 years so an Airline that cares could fill
the void, this little child may not have been left stranded at the airport by
a company full of employees who don't need to care.

<http://www.laane.org/downloads/ShortchangedStudy.pdf>

~~~
pcrh
I don't think weather forecasting is currently good enough for a farmer to
plan which crops to plant based on rainfall predictions.

If every farmer planted a diversity of crops to account for all likely weather
scenarios, then the average productivity would drop, as most crops would turn
out to be unsuitable for the weather that occurred.

~~~
roel_v
"I don't think weather forecasting is currently good enough for a farmer to
plan which crops to plant based on rainfall predictions."

It's good enough to offer insurance to farmers for when harvests will fail.
This exists, I know because I (even if only at arms length) work in this
field.

~~~
wooster
The insurance plans I've seen were based upon historical data, and didn't take
weather forecasts into account. (My family is in farming and ranching.)

~~~
roel_v
I'm not sure how these insurances are sold to end users at small scales. I'm
involved in building crop harvest forecast systems to be used by insurers who
insure large businesses (think multinationals) who need resources from mostly
Asian and African countries for the production of their goods, e.g. palm
trees. So this use case is different in scale from your example, our work is
mostly in risk modeling on a large scale.

That said, if I were selling insurances, I'd want two things: data to justify
or explain my rates to my customers, and data to make predictions of my own
risk and/or profit margins. The two might be correlated in a highly
competitive and transparent market, but I have a hunch that these insurances
are not, and that there isn't a whole lot of pressure to work on a cost plus
pricing model, so that these insurers can work on a value-added pricing model.

------
benologist
United are losing it at the moment. I had 2 flights the other week where they
couldn't even get someone to move the walkway thingy in line with the plane so
we all just stood around waiting after we landed. On one flight the pilot
actually _phoned_ because he couldn't get anyone on the radio.

They're really hit and miss with the service - it's either great or it's shit.
Sometimes I really love them... I've had two flights where a host has gone out
of their way to block off a faulty overhead light and a faulty in seat
entertainment system so I could sleep, another flight where I didn't have a
long enough layover to get food and they had no snack service so they gave me
two main courses (and I wasn't even elite back then). Other times they're like
a bad fucking movie - 6 weeks ago at 1am after a cancelled flight they just
arbitrarily closed the elite line with "a dozen people left" and told us to go
to the end of the economy line with 100s of people waiting in it already for
reticketing and hotel vouchers.

~~~
cjrp
Services like operating the walkway and the tugs that push-back the plane from
the gate are often outsourced. Perhaps that's the connection... in most of the
cases where the people did a terrible job, it's because the role's been
outsourced.

~~~
fleitz
I think the article nails this on the head, management doesn't care about it's
employees, and the employees pass this on to the customer.

They care so little that they don't even want core pieces of their business
done by their own people.

It reminds me of a cable co in canada called Rogers, the entire thing is a
bunch of outsourced services glued together with a couple sales people.

~~~
pasbesoin
It can go further. Caring can be actively dis-incented. If your caring about a
problem causes any disruption to your "normal" work, you will be penalized.

That child you rescued and escorted to their destination or a safe location?
That's 30 minutes you weren't "doing your job".

And perhaps you're not authorized to escort children. The liability! Sorry,
but we are going to have to terminate you.

When it gets to this point of actively "not caring", it's no longer human
nature; it is a contrary behavior that has been actively taught and
reinforced.

~~~
CWuestefeld
I don't know anything about this situation, but in some cases there can be
other factors preventing people from doing the work, even if they want to.
Liability, as you mention, is one such.

I recall many years ago, working at a certain phone company (I was a college
student on a summer job). I needed to get some information off a circuit board
that was sitting in a box on a warehouse shelf -- I could see it from where I
was standing, but couldn't read it. Yet I was forced to stand around for 1/2
hour until a warehouse worker could go fetch the box for me. I was told that
union rules didn't allow me to walk 50 feet over to pick up a box, and the
union would file a grievance if I did so.

I don't mean this as a rant against unions. I just mean to say that there can
be other extenuating factors. In the long run, management should be aware of
these problems and act to mitigate them. But in the short term -- when there's
a problem right now, that I'd like to fix -- both I and management may have
our hands tied.

~~~
pasbesoin
Fair enough. Unions, and their members, can act badly, too.

There is plenty of idiocy and self-serving turf warfare to go around.

I was in a union -- by default -- for a while, one time. It meant that in
exchange for a small amount in dues, my wages were 25% - 30% higher than those
of other jobs available to me. And, I worked my ass off. With other people who
worked their asses off. And who still had the time and energy for some good
humor, perhaps in part because there were limits to the amount that management
could jerk them around. We were all "blue collar stiffs"; nonetheless, it was
one of the happier places I've worked.

I have an uncle who ended up president of his union (in an unrelated field and
business). One of the most decent people I know. And he's busted his balls for
his folks; it's been necessary, in order to try to counteract some of the very
typical, abusive management techniques that have become prevalent -- and
increasingly written about -- in the last 20 years.

Unions do bad things. Short-sighted, self-destructive things. But no worse
than Management. And often, it seems that the "badness" is symmetric; the
worse one side gets, the worse the other becomes in response.

Some of the more compelling arguments of economics occur at the macro level.
And there, the decline and destruction of the union workforce has a strong
correlation -- if arguments continue over causation -- with the decline of the
American workforce and productive industry.

Unions also, at their best, epitomize a characteristic oft lauded as an
American ideal: When the chips are down, we "rouged individualist" Americans
step up and take care of each other. We're in this together. (A sentiment
having significant base in WW II.) It ain't pretty, but it works.

The decline of unions seems to correspond with, symbolize, and perhaps
represent the decline of this ideal in the American population and psyche.

These days, to be caustic, we seem to be lauding "ever dog for himself".

P.S. Your story about having to wait 30 minutes to look in a box disgusts me.
That definitely is _not_ the way things should be -- I agree with you.

------
anusinha
As someone who traveled many times as an unaccompanied minor (without a
cellphone) in the early 2000s under United Airlines, American Airlines, and
Northwest Airlines, I'm shocked to hear this story. I always felt safe and
knew who was in charge of taking me from place to place. I'm astonished that
United's service has deteriorated to this extent. Yes, it was only a very
small sample size of United's service staff, but the fact that this situation
happened does not bode well for the quality of their service and will
hopefully spark something in the administration and leadership to revitalize
the culture that currently tolerates such treatment. If not, well, there are
plenty of cheaper airlines with superior service and United's marketshare and
reputation will suffer. There's always someone willing to provide the service
you do for less. You have to figure out what you can do better than the other
guys and capitalize on it.

~~~
colmvp
My experience with United/U.S. Airways/American has been, shit to say the
least. I'm astounded by how generally large North American carriers pale
compared to either small companies like Westjet and Porter, or large Asian
airlines like Singapore and Emirates.

------
lancefisher
Wow. This is one thousand times worse than breaking guitars. I would love to
see that band make another video about this incident.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo>

------
barbs
I'm astounded at how terrible United Airlines is, and seemingly always has
been. How have they been able to get away with such terrible customer service
for so long?

In 1995 I flew with my brother and mother to America from Australia, a 12 hour
flight. I was 5 years old and my older brother was 7. They knew our ages, and
had seated us with 1 seat at the back of the plane, and 2 near the front. My
mother was pretty frustrated. Was she supposed to sit up the front by herself
and leave us two at the other end of the plane? Or sit with one of us and
leave the other by themselves?

I recently took a very similar flight at the end of last year. I was flying by
myself, but sure enough, once the bulk of the passengers had boarded the
plane, an attendent over the loudspeaker told us that they were aware that
family members had been separated due to seating arrangements and they ask
that we please just sit in those seats for take-off and rearrange ourselves
once we were in the air. I couldn't believe that after 16 years they were
still having the same problems.

------
k-mcgrady
United is clearly very wrong here and treating their customers poorly. But,
and I'm sure this is going to be an unpopular opinion, who sends a 10 year old
across the country on a plane alone? I wouldn't send a 10 year on a 30min bus
ride alone. I understand United offers a service to make this possible but it
seems like a ridiculous thing for a parent to take advantage of. Maybe it's a
cultural difference and this is common in the US (is it?) but I don't know
anyone who would even consider doing it.

~~~
masklinn
> who sends a 10 year old across the country on a plane alone? I wouldn't send
> a 10 year on a 30min bus ride alone.

Wow. Overprotective much? At 10 I went to school by bus, alone, with 2 or 3
changes along the way (and a ~10 minutes walk between home and the bus
station), total travel time was maybe 45~60mn and same thing the other way
around in the evening. And I had friends boarding who took the train at the
beginning and end of the week, same age, hours of travel on their own.

> Maybe it's a cultural difference and this is common in the US (is it?)

I'm not in the US, and I'd definitely consider that fine. Taking the plane is
probably less common around here but considering the plane culture of the US I
don't see any issue with it.

> I understand United offers a service to make this possible but it seems like
> a ridiculous thing for a parent to take advantage of.

1\. No it's not, the whole point of the service is to use it.

2\. I'm pretty sure United created the service because parents were _already_
sending children across the country by plane alone, that's not a rare
occurrence. Most children of 8 or 10 are reasonably bright and can actually
take care of themselves reasonably well unless you spent 10 years making them
completely dependent.

~~~
fleitz
I'll second this, in North America everything that is possible to make a child
absolutely dependant is done. Parents who try to raise functioning adults are
shunned.

There was a national outcry because someone let their 12 year old ride a
subway.

You can find most of the roots of helicopter parenting in attachment
parenting, the idea that a child should always be touched by their parent
until they're about 5.

~~~
pavel_lishin
I grew up in Moscow, before I turned ten I would regularly take the subway all
the way to school and back. I find it ludicrous and offensive that some of my
peers weren't allowed to walk or bike _ten blocks_ to school in a suburban
neighborhood.

~~~
fleitz
Yeah, there's a strange sense of danger in north america, my father used to
play in bomb craters out front of his families' apartment.

Sucks to grow up in a town that makes ball bearings.

------
greggman
Doesn't this sound like many large internet companies? Paypal? Ebay? Google?
Facebook? Yahoo? All of them seem to ignore their customers. At least that's
my experience. They only seem to solve issues when either you have connections
to someone on the inside or manage to get your story carried/notice on some
major news website (HN included).

~~~
swang
I'm being as polite as I can say this, but how is it that when you read this
article you think it is yet another, "company ignore customer story?" I think
most people read this and are appalled by the fact that United is so far over
on the wrong side of the line that they can't even be bothered to worry about
a human being anymore. They are so far gone that no one in the system cared
that a kid is alone by him/herself. Imagine the shitstorm that would have
happened had something happened to the kid.

But to answer your question, no. Paypal, eBay, Google, Facebook, Yahoo. None
of these companies are in the business of transporting humans (at least not
yet, and I guess yes only if you count those self-driving cars Google has).

~~~
gabrielf
They aren't in the business of transporting human beings, but they are in the
business of transporting and storing things that are really, really important
to human beings. Their financial information. Their family photos, records of
who they talked to and what they said, etc. Real human beings got hurt when
Yahoo handed over information about who they were talking to to the Chinese
government. If you spend 99 cents on an MP3 from Amazon and something goes
wrong you'll almost certainly get a really good customer service experience.
There's no reason that a company you're trusting with all of your
communications can't have the same level of service.

------
rodolphoarruda
"So some United executive called Annie and Perry at home yesterday to try to
cool them out."

Interesting. I would make this guy wait some 40 mins on the phone, then tell
him "something has happened" and that he would have to call later. In the
meantime he would have to wait and watch the news getting widespread in media.
A little bit of reciprocity would be nice to educate this corporate people.
It's absurd that, IMHO, parents of a missing child who have not received
proper care for days, now have to give all the attention and care to some
executive.

------
jcampbell1
I want to know who the the passengers were sitting next to this child were
that didn't help her with her transfer. The lack of human decency is a
cultural problem as much as an airline problem. What the fuck is wrong with
people that don't talk to a child traveling alone and make sure she makes her
connection. I blame humanity as much as the airline.

~~~
arjn
It sucks to say this but in the US if you're male, the smart/safe thing to do
is not have any contact with an unaccompanied child at all. There is a non-
trivial chance that may be misconstrued as something else and you could find
yourself in a whole world of trouble. Of course this should not stop someone
from bringing a distressed child to the attention of the flight crew and other
passengers.

~~~
ZoFreX
Fuck. That. If you're not willing to take the negligible* risk of the
situation being misconstrued to help a lost scared child, you are no better
than the United Airlines employees.

* Yes, it is negligible. For every scare story you hear, thousands of people interact with minors with absolutely no issues at all.

~~~
waveman2
If it happens to you it is a 100% result.

Just today a man was ordered to move his airline seat away from two young
children. Until he proved they were _his_ children.

In another story out today a woman aggressively approached a man and
threatened him with arrest for taking his own children to a store.

Another man found a lost child and returned the child to its mother, only to
be abused and threatened by the mother.

You see enough of this, eventually you conclude "OK, have it your way".

~~~
mindcrime
_If it happens to you it is a 100% result._

Just like it's a 100% result if your plane crashes. But we know that,
statistically speaking, airline travel is safe and crashes are pretty rare.

So, of the million of interactions between men and unaccompanied children, how
many result in some crazy, unjustified child-molester accusation? I'm guessing
it's about the same as the percentage of flights that crash.

I don't believe that a handful of anecdotes, considered in isolation, are a
good basis for making decisions.

~~~
tuxychandru
The benefits of air travel outweigh the risk of dying in air crash and other
modes of travel are riskier.

However the benefits to the person helping the child is minuscule compared to
the risk of ending up in prison and being added to sex offenders list. It is
minuscule even compared to the risk of undergoing a criminal trial.

------
mherdeg
I don't think this blog post's headline is quite right.

"Losing a child" is putting a child on BOS-EWR instead of BOS-CLE and not
noticing the problem until the child's family in Cleveland calls the parents
and the parents call Newark,
[http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2009...](http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2009/06/68159589/1).

It sounds like what happened here was "causing a child to miss a connection"
(and also separately "delaying the delivery of a child's luggage"). This is of
course a very bad thing.

Missing the handoff of an UM from the aircraft to their connecting gate is the
same kind of service delivery failure that routinely happens to pax with
disabilities who, when the third-party wheelchair vendor fails to show up,
occasionally may be stuck at a gate waiting for someone for an hour. It's a
really bad way for a third-party vendor to fail.

The unaccompanied minor fee is supposed to cover a really, really good white-
glove service, so it's really sad to see this break down. The service is
supposed to include a gate pass so you can accompany your minor to the gate; a
complimentary onboard meal (food-for-purchase these days); careful handoff of
the pax by flight crew to the ground staff who are supposed to be waiting to
escort them to their connecting gate; and in the rare event of an overnight
delay, guaranteed overnight accommodations with airline staff staying with the
minor at the hotel. (This last perk is so expensive to the airlines that in
the event of irregular operations that require a rebooking, UMs typically get
top priority for rebooking, ahead of all other displaced pax.)

Total bummer to see service delivery fail here.

~~~
adolph
If my luggage didn't make a connection and I arrived at my final destination
without it, I would think of it as "lost luggage." Would it matter to me if it
was stuck in the connecting airport or sent elsewhere? No, it did not arrive
with me, the airline lost it, even if temporarily. In lay person terms, the
luggage is lost--the airline lost a child, yes.

~~~
mherdeg
Yes, I understand your point -- colloquially, one might say that the "child
was lost".

Your mileage may vary, but when someone who works for a company has done
something horribly wrong and I'm trying to clean it up, I often find it
helpful to be careful with my language so that I can express precisely and
correctly what it is that they did wrong.

This is mostly a matter of showing empathy, not being a stickler for technical
correctness. When I talk to someone who can fix a horrible mistake, and I show
that I understand precisely what went wrong and who's responsible without
overreaching, I gain credibility and the person I'm talking to (who is after
all a person, if perhaps one who has done something horrible) is more likely
to believe that I understand them. If I can express that I know exactly how
their system works and what part of it broke, it helps them realize that I'm
seeing things from their point of view, and this can help bridge the gap
between "my side" and "their side" to help them realize that we're trying to
get the same thing done.

I've found empirically that practicing empathy with people makes them more
likely to try harder to fix mistakes and gets better outcomes. It also saves a
lot of time to be able to say "X happened", which is exactly what happened,
and not waste anyone's time re-explaining the problem instead of fixing it.

But, again, this is just a thing that's worked for me in practice (as it
happens, mostly with airlines). Concise, precise communication about what went
wrong, who's responsible, and what I'd like to fix the problem has helped me
get great outcomes dozens of times.

------
PaulAJ
I don't know how accurate it is, but this article

<http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines>

provides an explanation of the chronic financial problems that airlines find
themselves in. Briefly, the senior pilots get to negotiate their own pay
rates, and since they have the airlines over a barrel they always wind up
taking any profit themselves.

Of course that means that airline management is permanently strapped for cash
and has to spend the bare minimum on everything else.

------
jnsaff2
Simon Sinek in his book makes very similar observations and also has his take
on why this is happening and how to fix it.

The book is at <http://www.startwithwhy.com/>

TL;DR folks this is the "trailer" for the book:
<http://www.ted.com/talks/view/lang/en//id/848>

------
andy_herbert
Not really surprising, in my opinion once these organizations become large
enough that diffusion of responsibility become institutionalized. It doesn't
necessarily indicate that the individuals don't care, just that they feel that
it isn't their responsibility to do so.

~~~
colmvp
I flew on U.S. Airways a few weeks back. Lining up to board the plane, a
passenger noticed someone left a purse at the gate. A passenger said to the
U.S. Airways attendent, "Do you think it makes sense to announce to the gate
and the plane that someone left a purse? Maybe someone will come and pick it
up." The attendent shrugged his shoulders and kind of said, "meh, not my
problem."

------
Foy
This is the kind of rage-inducing stuff that makes you want to choke a flight
attendant.

I cannot even imagine what it would feel like to be told over the phone that
the company lost your child, and the baggage, and that they don't really
care... or even think it's a big deal.

~~~
snprbob86
As someone who is dating a flight attendant, may I say: Please don't choke a
flight attendant. They are absolutely the least culpable people involved with
airline incompetence.

At least for Delta, flight attendants' primary compensation is based on
_scheduled_ flight time. Not actual flight time. Not tarmac time. Not delay
time. _Scheduled_ flight time. And even then, only with passengers!

So when you're stuck at the gate, waiting for some nincompoop to fetch the jet
bridge, and you start giving the flight attendants hell, you need to
understand that _waiting there sucks for them too_. They have only a few short
hours to get a half night's sleep and enjoy the destination; the only perk
that justifies their lifestyle. The rest of their job boils down to glorified
waitress and underpaid babysitter.

If you think you've got a travel horror story, you ain't got nothing on a
flight attendant. One night, my girlfriend's phone woke us up at 3 AM. She was
on call and was needed immediately for a flight from Anchorage (we're in
Seattle). It's about 40 minutes to the airport and this was a "short call",
meaning she needed to be there in less than 2 hours! She and 5 of her co-
workers, had to jump out of bed and haul ass to the airport where they boarded
an empty flight to Anchorage. They were there to relieve a crew that didn't
receive the legal minimum rest time due to a weather delay. While they were in
the air, scheduling decided "fuck the FAA regulations" and put the overworked
crew back on a plane anyway. So my girlfriend's crew arrives, finds that the
flight they were supposed to work has already departed, and the pilot who
brought them required a legal rest period. So they were required to spend the
night in Alaska and take another empty flight home. It was the dead of winter,
so it was far too cold to go anywhere outside the hotel. All in all, the crew
received one days worth of per diem and no compensation for either flight, as
they were "dead heading", which is unpaid. That per diem is fixed for
"domestic" travel, so it's relative value varies by destination. It generally
doesn't even cover the cost of meals in Alaska.

Fuck airlines.

~~~
flyinRyan
>As someone who is dating a flight attendant, may I say: Please don't choke a
flight attendant.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions. It doesn't matter if those are
your "orders", you're still completely responsible if you carry them out.

------
axusgrad
My first flight was unaccompanied at 10 years old, to Maine via Boston. All
the airline's flights were delayed indefinitely due to some malfunction. A
stewardess took my brother and I around Boston airport and kept an eye on us
for 6 hours while things got straightened out. I've had respect for Delta ever
since, even if all the people involved are long gone.

------
cellis
O'Hare is gigantic airport. And, I know from experience that some flights from
O'hare to GRR are running tight,sometimes as little as 10 minutes before the
connecting flight taxis. I once sprinted through O'Hare to catch a connecting
flight to GR. So I'm not surprised at all by this.

~~~
Dylan16807
That's a valid excuse for missing the connection. Not so much for anything
else.

------
misiti3780
I'm not United's biggest fan, but this story sounds one-sided.

I know for a fact that flight attendants have procedures where a child is
handed off from person-to-person, by signature. The agent comes with the child
and paperwork, gives it to the FA, and then when the plane arrives at a new
location, the paperwork and the child are handed off to the next person. This
article does not mention any of the procedures, but I know they exist -- If a
flight attendant loses a child, her job is on the line. The company does care.

------
blisper
2 months back my 13-year old nephew flew from USA to India as an unaccompanied
minor in Lufthansa, with a flight changeover in Frankfurt. This is a 21 hour
journey. It went off without a hitch. In fact, Lufthansa staff took good care
of him, and he had a great time.

------
muro
scary story.

Reminded me of this kid's story (almost same age):

[http://overheadbin.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/25/12945121-rom...](http://overheadbin.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/25/12945121-rome-
alone-boy-11-slips-through-security-flies-from-uk-to-italy-without-
passport?lite)

------
gte910h
This shouldn't be on HN. Flagged.

------
pasbesoin
Yes, the Management should feel like the scum they are.

So should all the self-serving, money-grubbing, union-busting, career-
exporting, not-in-my-backyard scum that have come to infest the U.S.

You want to blame someone? Look in the damned mirror, reader.

------
calgaryeng
I think the moral of this story is not to send your 10 year old unaccompanied
on an airplane...

------
FrankBooth
The responsibility lies with the parents. What are they doing sending a child
so young alone? United is not a baby-sitting service.

~~~
colmvp
Why didn't the parents give the kid a cellphone? There's no way I'd just leave
my kid to travel alone on a flight, let alone without a cell phone.

~~~
slowpoke
How on earth did people travel some ten or twenty years ago I wonder? You
know, before cellphones were widespread or even affordable? For fuck's sake,
children aren't dumb. Always treating them as if they are results in them not
growing into independent adults.

Besides, unaccompanied flights are _awesome_ as a child. I did that once,
don't remember how old I was. Flew with the German Lufthansa from my parents
to my grandparents. You can't imagine how adult I felt, flying (almost) all
alone. I remember the attendants were all friendly and helpful, and the
gentleman next to me even swapped his seat with me so I could look out of the
window. It was a valuable and memorable experience.

~~~
gte910h
They are quite awesome. I remember my childhood flights as well

