
Finally, a Startup Visa That Works  - joshbert
http://techcrunch.com/2011/03/14/finally-a-startup-visa-that-works/
======
iamelgringo
I've been _soooo_ frustrated by this, running
<http://www.hackersandfounders.com> . I can't tell you how many amazing
entrepreneurs I've seen come into the area, and then have to leave because of
visa issues. So, even though I'm way oversubscribed right, now, I'm burning a
bit of bandwidth on the startup visa movement.

Votizen (I have no attachment other than knowing the founders) is coming up
with a crazy cool platform to mobilize people about this issue.

Just text "startupvisa" to 894546. They've build a hella cool twilio app, that
texts you back, verifies that you are a registered voter in the US. If you
are, they_print_out_your_text_message and hand carry it to your senators and
representative in congress.

It's friggin genius. Please, pass the word.

Hell. I'll start another thread specifically for this. If you are a voting US
citizen: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2324232>

If you are a foreign entrepreneur who wants to get a visa to the US, please
help us promote this issue, so you can get a visa.

Craig Montuori set up a tumblr to tell stories of Entrepreneurs that haven't
been able to start companies in the US because of visa issues. Contact him at
<http://startupvisa.tumblr.com/>, or cmontuori@gmail.com .

~~~
tptacek
How exactly does the message delivery work?

~~~
iamelgringo
Back and forth between you and votizen, is text messages. They ask you for
your name and zip code, and if you're a registered voter. They verify that
with voter registraion databases.

Then, if you are a registered voter, they tell you who your representative and
senators are, and then they hand carry a print out of your support to the
physical offices of those senators and representatives.

The last mile of the message delivery is in meat space, foot work.

~~~
patio11
Having a brother who worked in constituent services: being lobbied is not a
new experience for Congresscritters. If you really want to do something, send
them an actual letter on paper. If you don't send a letter on paper, it is
highly likely that your support will be discounted as someone who is weakly
attached to the issue. This is because, if you don't care enough to send a
letter on paper, you _are_ weakly attached to the issue.

The very mild inconvenience relative to, e.g., "RT for great justice!!1" is
used as a bozo filter. Startups aimed at reducing barriers to entry in
petitioning Congresscritters should consider carefully whether removing a
functional bozo filter is desirable to a group whose opinion of their products
is super-critical.

As an example of a previous technological innovation: a few groups discovered
years ago that you can hook up a CGI script to a fax machine and then get
anybody who submits a web form to fax a form letter about e.g. abortion to
their representative. Congressional staff thought that was a very interesting
development... for about ten minutes. After that, they were "measured by
weight."

------
ojbyrne
All I can say is I find category 2 -

 _Workers on an H-1B visa, or graduates from U.S. universities in science,
technology, engineering, mathematics, or computer science—if they have an
annual income of at least $30,000 or assets of at least $60,000 and have had a
U.S. investor commit investment of at least $20,000 in their venture. Two
years later, the startup must have created three new American jobs and either
have raised over $100,000 in financing or be generating more than $100,000 in
yearly revenue_

on a strictly personal basis, umm, droolworthy.

~~~
Smirnoff
My question is why this visa limiting to STEM majors only? What about business
and finance majors? Aren't business students likely to start a company too?

~~~
avichal
2 reasons:

1) The goal of the bill is to hang on to entrepreneurs who will generate new
value and create new jobs. To drive "real value" you have to improve business
productivity, make information accessible that wasn't accessible before,
automate things that were hard to automate previously, etc. These are almost
always technical accomplishments first.

2) There is an oversupply of people on the business side and an undersupply of
people on the engineering side. For the US to stay competitive it has to hang
on to the technical talent.

------
corin_
When asked six weeks ago whether the Yuri Milner / SV Angel offers would
affect which startups YC accepts, pg said "No, of course not."

I would imagine that, if this legislation does pass, it might change his
answer to that question, as all of a sudden that extra $150k becomes the
difference between foreigners being able to get a Startup Visa to be accepted
into YC or not.

If you read this Paul, care to share any updated thoughts on how this
legislation and the $150k offer will/won't impact who you can accept to YC,
and possibly who will apply to YC?

~~~
iamelgringo
Or, if you have decent product, team, traction, pitch and social proof, you
can apply to Angel List, and pick up the investment.

Come to the area on a tourist visa, hang out at local meetups like 106 miles
or Hackers & Founders, and we'll try to get you guys plugged into the scene.
Hopefully, you'll make enough connections that if and when you have to go
back, you'll be able to have enough connections to raise an angel round, get a
visa and move.

~~~
hippich
If only getting tourist visa was so easy for everyone =))

~~~
patrickk
There's 36 countries on the Visa Waiver Program, see if you qualify:

[http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html#...](http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html#countries)

" _The Visa Waiver Program (VWP) enables nationals of 36 participating
countries to travel to the United States for tourism or business (visitor [B]
visa purposes only) for stays of 90 days or less without obtaining a visa. The
program was established to eliminate unnecessary barriers to travel,
stimulating the tourism industry, and permitting the Department of State to
focus consular resources in other areas._ "

~~~
sireat
While nice, it is not without its caveats, if CBP officer does not like you,
you are gone.

"Travelers should be aware that by requesting admission under the Visa Waiver
Program, they are generally waiving their right to review or appeal a CBP
officer’s decision as to their application for admission at the port of entry.
Likewise, if the traveler is later found to have violated the conditions of
admission under the Visa Waiver Program, they do not have the right to contest
a removal order (See the CBP website for additional details.) "

------
petercooper
_Foreign entrepreneurs whose business has generated at least $100,000 in sales
from the U.S._

Now that's more like it! If US consumers are sending lots of dollars out of
the country, it makes sense to bring those entrepreneurs into the country and
keep the dollars at home. Not all of us need funding so this proviso could
help us out without having to go looking for arbitrary angel cash.

~~~
tomjen3
Wouldn't it makes sense to get those who sell outside the US even more? that
could potentially get the trade deficient back to zero, which this measure
won't.

~~~
tghnjtghn
Most of the monetary requirements are to stop scams - ie where millionaire's
kid bills family company abroad for $100K and gets to stay in the US running
his company. It's also the reason for requiring qualified investors - to stop
this just being family money recycled.

Although it is a bit silly that if you invented say a malaria vaccine and had
a $Bn in foreign sales you would be deported!

~~~
huherto
IMHO, it is in the best interest of the US to let rich people in. They have a
big potential to invest or consume.

~~~
tghnjtghn
Depends on what you mean by 'rich' - $1M, $10M, $1Bn ?

There have been classes of investment visa for people bringing $1M into the
country. But then people simply used it to buy a house = $1M in some areas. So
then there were requirements that it had to be invested in a business, so
people formed a company, bought a house and leased it to themselves.

So the politicians upped the $$ requirement, but that leads to different
problems. People with $100M in cash are often not very nice citizens - do you
want to give Col Qaddafi, Kim Jung whoever, etc a US visa if they bring $100M
of their people's money with them? How many of their family/ friends/
associates also get a visa?

~~~
elai
People with $100mm could buy their visa by making a unprofitable business and
come in on the immigrant investor visa anyway. Or get a US friend to create a
company where they have veto powers and come over on an L-1A and get their
green card in 2-3 years due to no labor certification or waiting list. And
their spouse can work also on a L-2 visa when they apply with him. Someone who
has made a $100million could also get an O visa. Your a pretty remarkable
person if you've made $100 million.

Also if you have $100 million and don't setup your income to be indirect
through companies and such, the USA taxes all international income, even if
you've never lived or set foot in the US for years, and has an expat tax if
you give up your green card or citizenship explicitly made for rich people.
The usa is the only country in the world to do this and makes it unattractive
to actually get a citizenship from them if your wealthy. You can still do
business and profit from the country quite well without being a citizen and at
that level you could do business in the country part time coming in on B-2
visas. The consulate would have no problem giving you a 10 year multiple entry
B-2 visa since you have a very very very low illegal immigration risk.

------
noelsequeira
I'm an Indian entrepreneur, and much as I'd love to see #3 see the light of
day, I have this sinking feeling it's just way too ripe for exploitation.

 _Foreign entrepreneurs whose business has generated at least $100,000 in
sales from the U.S. Two years later, the startup must have created three new
American jobs and either have raised over $100,000 in financing or be
generating more than $100,000 in yearly revenue._

A ton of companies that aren't really startups could easily misuse this
clause. And even if there's fine print to guard against the same, due
diligence in each case will translate into a ton of paperwork and enormous
bureaucratic delays, which is exactly what we're trying to avoid in the first
place, right?

That said, no one hopes I'm wrong more than I do right now.

~~~
speleding
I agree that it sounds too easy. My startup easily has $100K in accumulated
sales from the US, so I would all of a sudden qualify for a visa. That's
perplexing if you know how much trouble they made me go through to attend a US
university (and send me packing right afterwards).

Then again, even with some abuse of the rules I think this would probably be a
good deal for the US economy. Anyone who is able to "fake" $100K in revenues
is not likely to go through the trouble to "take away" any blue color job
there. You would just get a well educated tax payer for free.

~~~
ojbyrne
I'm going to guess that means $100k in annual sales. Its not entirely clear on
that point, but the mention of the same number required annually after being
approved seems to suggest that. Your use of the work "accumulated" suggests
you're talking about a period > 1 year.

~~~
speleding
Actually, I think you are right that they probably mean $100K a year, although
the article doesn't say that. (My startup does >$100K annually too now, but I
guess that would limit the potential candidates quite a bit)

------
stefanobernardi
I just WISH we had such politicians in my country. It is just mind blowing to
me that a politician actually took the time to read a TC article and modify a
bill accordingly.

~~~
whakojacko
Hell, I'm American and its still mind-blowing to me that a politician actually
took the time to read a TC article and modify a bill accordingly.

~~~
tghnjtghn
It's still mind-blowing to me that a politician could read!

------
marcamillion
Wow....there is a lot of hyperbole generated on Techcrunch but this post is
spot-on.

If this bill had been passed while I was still in the US, it definitely would
have convinced me to stay.

The truth is, that if it is passed, I just might be inclined to go back -
under the third category.

We will see what materializes though.

This could be pretty interesting either way.

~~~
betolive
Agree! pretty interesting times are coming... I had to leave 7 months ago
because I wanted to focus on my startup and I was not able to do it with my H1
job, the discussion ahead related to this topic is worth watching

------
trustfundbaby
It makes way too much sense.

Somebody is going to have to ruin some part of it for it to pass.

Yes I'm cynical. I've lived here too long.

------
dreamux
I look forward to contributing to the American economy if this passes.

------
hopstar
If only other countries would follow suit. Afew years ago I had a great plan
in place for an internet cafe (and more) planned for a great location in
Grenada, and was basically told that I needed close to $300k in assets and/or
financing in order to qualify for residency and make it happen. The entire
project could have gotten off the ground for less than $200k (for which I had
good faith agreements), and my plan involved hiring at least 3 locals to start
with, so why did I need the other $100k?

"Just because..." was pretty much the only answer that the immigration
officials could give me.

Oh well, it was a great 9 month vacation while it lasted...

------
samstokes
Anyone know whether the Startup Visa will allow dual intent - i.e. if you pass
the "remain in the country" criteria can you apply for a green card?

------
drc
Very exciting. However remember this is the an initial step in a long road of
many steps -

See this info-graph for an articulation of the legislative steps needed to
make law: [http://www.mikewirthart.com/wp-
content/uploads/2010/05/howla...](http://www.mikewirthart.com/wp-
content/uploads/2010/05/howlawsmadeWIRTH2.jpg)

------
olivercameron
This is fantastic news. I'm here in San Francisco on a three year E-2 visa,
and this should simplify things a ton when the time comes to renew it.

------
crux_
Doesn't this give investors a rather disproportionate amount of negotiating
power, particularly for the 2nd round?

"Agree to our terms ... or lose your visa!"

~~~
blizkreeg
Not really. Except for the first category, it's 100K in financing. Not penny
change, but not a big amount either. Of course, you can also generate 100K in
revenue (two years is plenty enough time to get there) and then financing
isn't a requirement.

~~~
crux_
100K in financing that _must_ come from a US-based VC/angel, no friends-and-
family fundraising or personal savings allowed.

That 100K is going to be rather more costly to acquire than you think.

------
JCB_K
On the hand one I love this. On the other hand, this means it's going to be
harder for a startup scene to take off in any European city.

~~~
tghnjtghn
It's going to hit Vancouver - the place is currently full of startup people
that couldn't get US visas

~~~
muzz
What notable startups have come out of this community in Vancouver?

~~~
tghnjtghn
What notable startups have come out of silicon valley in the last 10years?
It's been a long time since HP, Apple, Sun appeared - a few people with a high
traffic no income social web site doesn't make an industry however many $M/Bn
it's notionally valued.

~~~
muzz
You made a claim that there were many startup people there, and I simply asked
what notable startups have arised from that. It was a simple question, and the
answer would have revealed concrete examples of which startups this country is
missing out on because of a lack of a Startup Visa, and in this case, those
would have been literally right across our borders! Your lack of examples
would seem to indicate that the US wouldn't gain much from this purported
community of startup types crossing the border.

------
olivercameron
If anyone needs advice on getting a long-term US visa without getting funding,
feel free to email me (it's in my profile). It's currently an incredibly
difficult process, but do-able.

------
pclark
It seems somewhat strange if a degree is required for the startup visa - is
that the case?

------
HistoryInAction
The press release can be found here:
[http://kerry.senate.gov/press/release/?id=4e6a51f6-fb2b-4212...](http://kerry.senate.gov/press/release/?id=4e6a51f6-fb2b-4212-b299-b0c46c7e6b58)

------
plainOldText
Does anyone know how long will it take to find out if the bill passes or not?

~~~
trustfundbaby

        def pass_bill
          while bill_passed.eql?(false) && bill_dead.eql?(false)
            Get involved, drum up some buzz on its behalf
            Watch the news and immigration lawyer blogs
          end
        end

------
HistoryInAction
Check out the Votizen page to send your support to Congress:
<https://www.votizen.com/issues/startupvisa/>

------
ck2
Help me understand this?

Is there a shortage of startups in the USA?

Can startups (that in reality have an online-only product) not occur outside
the USA?

These are honest questions, I'm trying not to be biased, why come here?

~~~
recoiledsnake
I really fail to understand this line of thinking.

>Is there a shortage of startups in the USA?

What harm will an additional 1000 startups do, even if they fail? Fill the
Whitepages and Yellowpages and make it heavy when you have to carry it inside
your home? Look at the upside. Even a few successful ones(esp. big ones) can
more than make up for the failures.

>Can startups (that in reality have an online-only product) not occur outside
the USA?

Things are more conducive in the USA. So the same people may not be able to
start and succeed elsewhere.

Online only etc. doesn't matter. There will be too many obstacles like tax
laws, payment methods and what not.

~~~
ck2
To clarify, I am not anti-immigrant in the slightest. If anything I think we
should give more people the chance for freedom here who are pursued
politically in other countries. But I just cannot imagine anyone wanting to
come to the USA if they can afford to be elsewhere.

For one example, you best not need medical care while you are here because you
certainly will not be able to afford it and it will ruin your credit for life
(one trip to the hospital with nothing actually done will cost several
thousands of dollars). Secondly, if you wander outside of the more diverse
college-towns and metro areas, it's rednecks everywhere (look up "redstate" on
wikipedia
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_Governors_ma...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_Governors_map.svg)
).

My logic is if you are intelligent enough to start your own business that can
take in money virtually, you are already way ahead of a vast majority of our
own population and can have the best of both worlds - take our money and avoid
our problems.

------
dimitri_w
This is really a good thing. Especially for Europeans like me who are seeking
for Silicon Valley investment the limited H-1B visa and the high demands for
initial funding have been kind of a barrier hardly to be overcome. The ranges
now really encourage also foreign entrepreneurs to work on their ideas and
that should add some value to both parties, the entrepreneur and the US.

------
jmspring
I think the proposal is an interesting one. This really is one good step in
cleaning up the issues with visas in this country. People that want to come
here, start companies, and build the economy should be encouraged. Those that
come for school, get an advanced degree and want to start something should be
allowed to as well.

What isn't clear to me would be a scenario, say, where two foreign nationals
want to work together to start something under this proposed program, would
they need 2x the numbers? Also, "three new American jobs", are those visa
eligible or not?

The second area I would like to see addressed is the whole of the H1-B
process, specifically for "filling jobs where there is a shortage of talent".
The economy is in the shitter and there are people qualified that are having a
hard time finding things -- maybe due to age, location, or possibly needing to
brush up on skill sets. I don't know what the right approach here is, but it
really needs to be cleaned up to encourage training and hiring of those not
needing a visa. I've worked with many of the job-shops (Wipro, GlobalLogic,
etc) where the amount being paid for "talent" often was much higher than what
hiring locally would cost with similar or worse quality.

Balance is needed. This proposal is a great start and maybe adopting something
like the Canadian point system would be an interesting follow up for the non-
entrepeneurial crowd.

------
bigbang
Did the bill pass already? The article is not clear atleast to me, since it
mentions "draft of the bill".

~~~
HistoryInAction
No, the bill was introduced last year and failed to have any action taken on
it. This is the reintroduction, basically the very first step of a many-step
process to become law.

------
ylem
What about J1 visa holders? A number of people come in to universities and
national labs from abroad on these...It's already a great step--if J1 holders
were added, it would be even better.

------
egor83
A senator takes blogger's opinion into account and revises the legislation?
That's how a democracy should work.

I'm really impressed (and the revised conditions seem very reasonable, too).

~~~
HistoryInAction
Bob Litan of Kauffman has been pushing hard for the changes, and Kauffman has
the connections to affect the policy. I imagine that had a lot to do with it,
too.

------
tomjen3
The only problem with this is the requirement that it has to generate jobs -
there are so many ways this can cause a small business to fail that are
outside the control of those who are running it. That is in addition to all
the ways a business can fail without employees.

All it really takes is that you overlook a little provision or somebody gets
mad and sue because you didn't hire them and they turned out to be some
minority that was protected. Even if you win the suit most likely your
business is already done for and you lose everything.

The fact that legislation like this is cause for celebration is the
measurement of how far the US has fallen.

~~~
HistoryInAction
It's an OR requirement within the bill. Jobs is one way to convert the visa
into a green card within 2 years, but it's not the only way.

EDIT: Corin_ is right, and I was working off of the old bill, which had jobs
as an OR. Interesting that this change was made, probably to sell it more
effectively on the Hill.

~~~
corin_
Actually, according to TC's summary (I haven't read the exact proposal yet),
the OR requirements are all regarding "raised new financing OR bringing in a
certain amount of revenue". Creating jobs is an AND requirement in each of the
three options.

Edit: Have now bothered to read the actual press release, TC's list of the
three options was almost exactly copied word for word. So yeah, job creation
within two years is a must, not an option.

------
gersh
I assume the idea is to create American jobs. So, couldn't you just require
the company to have so many US citizens on their payroll at a certain minimum
salary.

------
_debug_
This is way too sensible to become true in the U.S. Next.

------
voxmatt
This is so crucially important. Even for an avid follower of politics, it's
astounding how something like this can get bogged down in partisan politics.

------
deskamess
If you have met the employment/revenue standards after 2 years, do you qualify
for a startup visa renewal or a green card?

------
tiabasnk
I am rooting for this legislation to get approved. It would be a very big
boost to many would-be entrepreneurs

------
DanielRibeiro
And just six days before YC S 2011 application deadline. Will probably
encourage many people to apply.

------
Prasannav
Finally ... hopefully it will work .. will certainly be a breather for many of
us outside the US ....

------
mhlakhani
Definitely looking forward to this one too, for personal reasons. Especially
the second category.

------
nikhilalmeida
Awesomesauce.... This makes it much more likely that I will take the plunge...

------
known
I hope inviting immigrants/investors will neutralize outsourcing

------
recoiledsnake
Well, there were naysayers saying Vivek was just saying this to keep himself
in the news and what he writes is useless, he keeps repeating the same thing
etc. etc. and got some nice upvoting on here too. Interesting what their take
on this would be.

See these two threads.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2294552>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2294385>

