
Apple's Company Registration for its App Store is Awkward and Awful - samdunne
http://sam-dunne.com/post/39040255207
======
onetwothreefour
__Cough ___cough_ <http://fedgov.dnb.com/webform/pages/CCRSearch.jsp>
_sputter_ _sputter_ _ahem_ _free_ _one business day_ _cough_ _do this before
submitting to Apple_ _cough_ _D &B is basically extortion_

For what it's worth, I was sent the URL above on a _wink wink hush hush_ basis
by a large EV SSL certificate issuer. We needed a cert for our non-US company,
but they wanted a DUNS number. Nobody outside the US actually uses DUNS
numbers (I don't care what D&B says). So yeah, that URL gives you a DUNS
number for free within 1 business day, paid for by the US Government.

~~~
mortenjorck
The above link pitches its offer as being for companies that do business with
the US government. Does your business actually have to be engaged in a
government contract, or can it be on a "we might respond to an RFQ someday"
basis?

~~~
onetwothreefour
The latter. :)

------
ddon
My story with DUNS number for my startup:

Long time ago when I applied for a merchant account for my startup, I was
asked for a DUNS number, I and decided to get one. After filling out online
application, and a long wait, I got it, and started to put it everywhere where
I was asked for it. I don't think DUNS did any check on my company before
giving the number to me, and I couldn't see what's on my profile, since I
never paid them. Anyway, I got my merchant account.

After several years in startup operation when I tried to raise some capital,
one of potential investors told me that with such bad credit history for my
company, I will not be able to raise any capital. I asked him where he checked
my company's credit history, and he told me that he checked on D&B. I told him
that I can't check myself, and I can't see what is the problem, and after he
emailed me my report from D&B, and was in shock after I read it :) Report is
broken down in many sections, and my report was something linke this:
Partnerships in the industry: None Revenue: None Bank accounts: None And so
on... And so on... At the the end of the report: Credit level: $800

:) and we were doing like 300K in revenues already, growing fast, and didn't
even expected that people trusting them and looking up info on companies
there.

I decided to become a good D&B citizen, since so many people trust them. So, I
called them up, and asked why information about my company is so wrong there,
and they told me that I need to pay, and they will "fix" my profile. After
paying, and sending them a list of industry partners, IRS reports, and started
to wait.

After few months, I called them up, and they told me that they tried to call
my partners from my list, and no one was able to confirm that they work with
me.

Anyway, when I realized that my profile will never be in a good standing, I
asked them to take it down completely, and remove my company from their
database. After talking, to one supervisor, and them to the other, they agree
to take it down.

But the final funny part, is that when I checked my profile online, it stated
that "CEO called and reported that company is closing down" :)))

~~~
mikeash
This seems to go beyond incompetence and into outright extortion and fraud.
They caused you material harm by misrepresenting you. They wouldn't fix their
information even after they were informed that it's wrong, making it willful,
and tried to collect money from you to stop lying about you. I'm frankly
surprised they haven't been sued into the ground yet.

~~~
ScottBurson
Looks like a business ripe for disruption, too -- ripe to the point of
rottenness.

------
WildUtah
Usually even when you have a DUNS number, Apple demands that some of the
company entity codes are filled in correctly. D&B will usually offer to fix
them for you in a month or take $200+ to do it faster.

The process that takes a month can be done over the phone or online but
frequently D&B simply stops processing mid-correction and abandons the update.
The process will be abandoned silently for a couple weeks, then you'll get
calls offering once again to update for a fee.

It took me three months to register with Apple. And that was for an ordinary
plain vanilla US domestic corporation.

~~~
nmcfarl
Same story for my US company as well. First applied to the Dev Program August
1st, finally got in December 18th.

3 calls to Apple - all good, quality support, but basically the ball was
always placed in D&B’s court . That was ~10 calls to D&B all of which were
horrible. Definitely hang up and call again when told to call again told
something can’t be done in the system - It obviously can be if Apple demands
that it to be done.

The month lag time for changes is the real killer - particular when D&B always
says everything is fine.

\--

One of the more fun incidents was when they altered the corporation to my
personal name, as a sole proprietor after I’d called to get the LLC added to
the end of the Corp’s name. Of course I didn’t find out for a month, as they
claimed they’d done exactly what I’d wanted, and their web UI’s been broken
for us ½ the time.

That incident is permanently in the corporate history now as though it really
happened. Not worth fixing though.

~~~
hyperberry
Very similar experience. Started the enrollment process end of October this
year. Got a DUNS number November 1st. But I didn't get the green light to
actually register until December 26. That was after 2 phone calls to Apple + 2
phone calls to D&B + countless times making updates (and waiting for email
confirmations) using the D&B iUpdate system. Always seemed like one company
was ready to put the ball in other company's court.

Now I'm idling because you need to signup separately for iTunes Connect. After
5x times getting the same error ("Your Apple ID isn't authorized for iTunes
Connect"), I contacted Appple Dev Support. Their response: iTunes Connect is
down for scheduled maintenance thru Dec. 28th. Uh, then why didn't the error
message say that? Or a sidebar? Or alert?

Definitely feels like I'm in One Infinite Loop

------
guptaneil
Actually I just went through this same process recently and found that if you
apply using the link on Apple's site, you can get the DUNS number for free
within 5 days. Follow this form:
<https://developer.apple.com/ios/enroll/dunsLookupForm.action>

I explained the full process at
<http://blog.metamorphium.com/2012/12/03/apple-duns/>

It's sad that this whole process isn't more transparent and easy though.

~~~
dmpatierno
Awesome! I requested a DUNS number a couple weeks ago and planned on just
waiting it out, but it looks like Apple already has my number after all.
Thanks for the link.

------
ben1040
How long has it been a requirement that any Apple Developer Program business
membership requires a DUNS number? I thought that was only a requirement for
their enterprise program, but apparently they now require a DUNS number for
even the $99 business membership.

When I opened a business membership in early 2011, I only needed to send Apple
the incorporation certificate from my secretary of state. It took a week for
Apple to process it, if that long.

~~~
eduardordm
They started requiring it earlier this year. In Brazil D&B asks for 60 WORKING
DAYS!!!!

==========

Boa tarde,

Confirmo o recebimento do formulário preenchido. Em 60 dias úteis o duns
number será disponibilizado.

Make it a Great Day!

Juliana Silva

Dun & Bradstreet do Brasil Ltda.

------
eduardordm
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4830303>

I made a formal complaint to authorities about this.

~~~
objclxt
I don't think that in many jurisdictions it would be illegal.

It's certainly not illegal for a company to set criteria for which suppliers
it will do business with: for example, "we'll only work with ISO9001 certified
companies". Is this any different?

I'd be interested to hear more about why this practice is illegal in Brazil,
especially as you say it could lead to a prison sentence (which seems odd for
what should be a civil case). Is there case law or statute available for
someone interested in such things to browse?

~~~
eduardordm
Those matters are federal, no such thing as 'jurisdiction'.

[http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/hearings/single_firm/comme...](http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/hearings/single_firm/comments/219224_b.htm)

~~~
jcampbell1
You just linked to an article that dismisses your initial claim:

> Most economists now would agree on three fundamentals. First, tying is a
> pervasive practice that, in many instances, gives rise to substantial
> efficiencies, particularly when it takes the form of product integration.
> Second, the circumstances in which tying would lead to anticompetitive
> effects are very restricted. And third, not only are those conditions hard
> to verify, but also any attempt to balance efficiency gains against possible
> anticompetitive effects will prove a complex exercise.

~~~
eduardordm
You got a part where they are talking about products that are bundled together
but belongs to the same company.

Like a selling a laptop with a mouse included.

~~~
jcampbell1
The whole comment is wrapped in anti-trust which doesn't even apply in this
situation. The notion that someone should/could go to jail for a policy that
is inconvenient, is hyperbolic.

Apple wants a DUNS number because they are taking on some fraud risk and want
a company identifier for credit history and to reduce the risk they are
dealing with scammers. Seems pretty reasonable.

~~~
eduardordm
They are not requiring a credit rating (which is offered by many companies)
They want a service from a specific company.

Edit: someone would go to jail after not complying with some court order.
Example: google VP in brazil went to jail earlier this year for not taking
down a youtube video. Those orders may come way before an actual trial

~~~
jonhendry
They used D&B because D&B has by far the largest international database of
businesses, and DUNS numbers have been around since the 60s. Many government
agencies internationally require DUNS numbers if you want to do business with
them.

It's something of an entrenched international standard. Most likely nobody
wants to have to deal with multiple database companies, or a competing
database with big gaps in its coverage compared to DNB.

At least it's free, even if they attempt to charge a premium for faster
service.

------
w1ntermute
If I'm not mistaken, this is the same issue run into by the creators of
Trifecta: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4896805>

> While we were ready to submit Trifecta at the beginning of November, we ran
> into issues due to how hard Apple makes it for a pair of developers to
> release an app together. To do so and have both of us credited we had to
> form a company (R&K Labs) and _obtain a D.U.N.s number which took us a
> month_.

------
theoj
Getting the free DUNS number is awkward and awful even in the US. D&B calls
you about 24 hours after you place your order and tries to sign you to a paid
package (perhaps suggesting that the free DUNS is no good for the AppStore).
Once you refuse they let you wait -- supposedly for 30 business days, but you
can wait a lifetime since they don't bother contacting you again. The DUNS
number gets silently issued after 30 business days with no phone call or email
notification.

------
mtholking
I just went through this process and it seemed like a scam. After registering
I got a sales call where they pushed the $300 package, suggesting that it
would take over a month to get set up with Apple if I did not purchase it.
When I refused, they had the audacity to say I should reconsider purchasing
when I could afford it.

I registered on iupdate.dnb.com and only paid $50 to expedite the request for
a DUNS number. The entire process was complete in a week and we were approved
by Apple.

------
k-mcgrady
I tried signing up for a company account too and it was so bad I gave up. I
already had a DUNS number (I never applied for one, I just searched the D&B
website, found my company, and they emailed it to me). The problem was that
D&B had my company registered in the wrong country. After I changed it with
them Apple's country information information was still incorrect. After a
couple of months trying to get it sorted, even speaking with Apple via email,
I gave up and registered an individual account instead. I figured it might be
easier to upgrade from individual to company (although I haven't tried yet).

~~~
miahi
I had a client with the same issues. The company account is still pending
after 4 months of e-mails and phone calls; in the meantime they are using an
individual account to publish. It doesn't follow Apple's rules, but it's
either that or no apps.

------
sjsivak
I recently ran into an issue with D&B misspelling our company name. This was a
massive hassle and I made over 6 phone calls to them and they kept on saying
there was one more thing that had to be updated and it would be another 7-14
days. Each time I only found out that the update was not complete because I
would call Apple to figure out why the iTunes Connect account was locked.

I finally got fed up and sent this tweet:
<https://twitter.com/sjsivak/status/276826269377765376>. They called me the
next morning and fixed it that day.

------
eduardordm
What strikes me the most is the US Gov. asking this number from US companies.

There is no excuse for the US Gov not having an updated registry of all
companies in the country. In fact, I'm pretty sure IRS should have that. So,
why the hell is that number required anyways? Even if the number is somehow
necessary, Why d&b? Was there an auction at least? I doubt it.

I'm surprised that sometimes americans accept that kind of crap from their
Government (executive) and large corporations (apple) without using Judiciary
services. You don't always need money and/or lawyers to protect yourself from
your government.

~~~
jonhendry
The US Gov also asks for the number they do have, the EIN.

"Why d&b"

Because it's the biggest database, and is international in scope. A local
company providing services to a US Embassy or military base overseas is
probably in the DUNS database, but probably wouldn't be in a smaller or US-
focused database.

DUNS numbers are a common requirement when doing business or dealing with
government for loans or contracts. That's why D&B has 150 million companies in
their database.

Established businesses aren't going to have any hardship with Apple's
requirement or the government's requirement, because they already have a DUNS
number.

The only people for whom this is a problem are people just starting up app
store-based businesses. But those are relatively few in the grand scheme of
things, compared to the overall number of businesses getting DUNS numbers all
the time.

But at least it's free, and mostly a one-time process, unlike getting your app
submissions approved, or dealing with signing issues, or app guideline
changes, etc.

------
Luc
I filled in my details at this Apple page:

<https://developer.apple.com/ios/enroll/dunsLookupForm.action>

... and got my DUNS number emailed to me within 15 minutes.

Worth a try?

~~~
winter_blue
Isn't that a lookup form? So perhaps you had a DUNS number already/

~~~
Luc
It's possible, I really don't know. I've been trading for 10 years so they
probably assigned me one during that time. I never requested one before.

------
merraksh
Not to be pedantic, but the title should be

Apple's Company Registration for its App Store is awkward and awful

Just move the apostrophe ahead. </grammar_nazi>

~~~
WimLeers
The author lives in Ireland. Hence he's most likely a native speaker.

Is it just me or do others also have the impression that it's mostly native
speakers doing this incorrectly? Or are there some schools/conventions/… where
"it's" is correct or at least an acceptable alternative?

~~~
fad45
I live in Ireland, we dont really get taught a whole lot of grammar in school,
or else I had terrible terrible teachers.

Answer: No, no one considers it correct, and if they do, they shouldn't!

I would like to mention that it always seems a bit dickish when someone
bothers commenting saying 'hurr durr there's supposed to be an apostrophe
here', no one knows if the author has dyslexia, or if he is in fact a native
speaker (Legally, our native language isn't English btw, most people are only
English speakers, but there is a tiny minority who aren't).

/rant

~~~
mikeash
I don't understand why people get upset about these corrections. If I make a
mistake, I'd rather be told than not. If the person making the correction is a
jerk, sure, that's no good, but that wasn't the case here and usually isn't.

------
kristopher
Japan's equivalent of D&B is TEIKOKU DATABANK or TDB[0]. These guys will come
by the office and run through a multiple of questions -- if you don't answer
them, they will be reflected in their database.

Whenever you get a call from TDB it is both scary and exciting because you
know that some major Japanese corporation wants data on your current standing.

Also, registering for a DUNS number here in Japan is very simple because most
of the information that they are after is already filed with the government in
an easy to access format.

[0] <http://www.tdb.co.jp/>

------
Luc
For the Netherlands it seems straightforward (though I didn't have to get
one): [http://www.dbhnederland.nl/nieuws/16/d-u-n-s-nummer-voor-
app...](http://www.dbhnederland.nl/nieuws/16/d-u-n-s-nummer-voor-apple-
developer-account)

Just call DBH, give them your company registration number, and they'll give
you a DUNS number, or so it seems.

------
oscargrouch
so many was done to get rid of microsoft claws, and not let one corporation to
dictate technology.. and now that microsoft is becoming a zombie, a new lord
(or should say lords) rises.. with its "app stores" corporate centric
mentality.. and here we go again.. two tech titans now threat the survival of
free technology and principles..

and that beast you cant fight back just with GPL licenses and free/open
software.. this beast is cool and people love it.. :/

------
gregcohn
Related question: should I register for a DUNS number even though I don't need
one right now?

We have a live app in the US app store, charge money for it, etc., and have
never been asked for a DUNS, though I did note it was one of the requirements
for an Apple enterprise developer account -- which we obviously don't have.

It seems like it takes time and hassle to get, and also like it could come up
unexpectedly. Worth the trouble to start the ball rolling now?

~~~
mooreds
I would. it is tedious and time consuming, but not necessarily a lot of
effort. Just, as some of the comments imply, a lot of waiting. I can't see it
hurting anything, as long as you have the time to fill out a silly form a
couple of times.

------
mooreds
I ran into many of the same issues, and my company is based in the USA and I
was able to get a DUNS number fairly easily. I contrasted this with my
experience with google play here:
<http://www.mooreds.com/wordpress/archives/890>

I don't know why Apple makes getting an account so difficult.... Perhaps to
filter out fly bynight mobile app developers?

------
aantix
Apple's general registration process is a POS. My mother had a new iPad out of
the box (no prior Apple products). Between signing up for credentials on one
screen, validating her email in a browser then entering billing information at
entirely different screen that was seemingly unrelated to the first two
screens, I am glad that I did it. Otherwise I am sure she would have become
quickly disillusioned.

~~~
vvhn
You can choose "skip this" at each of the initial prompts and have a
completely functional iPad without registering for anything or entering any
other information. Before iOS 5, you had to connect to iTunes on your PC or
Mac but that is not required since then.

The first time you really will need an Apple ID is when you go download an App
from the App Store (which will be soon enough :)). There also, if you choose
an App which is free (like facebook) and you try to download, you will be
prompted with a No Payment option to associate with your Apple ID which can
can use to downlaod anything. The first time you buy something is when you
will need payment information (credit card billing address etc.)

------
edgecrafter
I got my DUNS number (Denmark) over the phone calling the local D&B - they
were used to getting calls like that. Call the local D&B again
<http://www.dnb.co.uk/> or use the form
<http://salesmarketing.dnb.co.uk/find_my_company/> BTW, it's free to get the
DUNS number

------
jcurbo
Marco Arment talked about this in some detail on Build and Analyze a while
back. (Can't look up the EP number right now unfortunately, sorry)

~~~
jcurbo
Ok, I had time to check and it was apparently this ep.
<http://5by5.tv/buildanalyze/93>

~~~
samdunne
I'll have a listen thank you :)

------
pazimzadeh
D&B has an information page about the Apple developer program:
[http://support.dandb.com/entries/22065146-apple-developer-
pr...](http://support.dandb.com/entries/22065146-apple-developer-program)

I just got off the phone after failing to find my company in their online
database, and was told to email applecs@dnb.com to request my number.

------
mihaela
When I applied for Apple developer program I was surprised to find that my
company already had a DUNS number. I'm in Croatia. I guess it has to do with
my company being active for more that 5 years, but I could be wrong.

------
tonymillion
I did this in the UK about 2 months ago, the entire process took about 4
hours.

I used the free option too - you have to scour the UK site for it, but its all
there, and it was quick (in November anyway)

~~~
cdolan92
Im going through this entire process as we speak. Let me give you some
pointers that I have learned over the last two days.

I have a company, which is filed as an LLC in Delaware, that has a DUNS number
just through D&B doing their work. We have been around for over a year, so
they must have picked us up at some point. However, all of the information was
incomplete - they didnt know we were an LLC, who owned the company, etc etc.

This meant that when I tried to apply for a Company iOS Dev license, I hit the
same problem you did. Apple's background check (done through D&B/DUNS),
totally failed, and I was black listed.

I called Apple, they told me to sign up as an individual, and then do my work
there while I update my DUNS information, at iupdate.dnb.com. Currently, I'm
waiting the 15 days after updating to re-apply for Apple's business dev
account, while the databases get in sync.

You DO NOT need to pay for a DUNs number, however, they obviously want to
upsell you for expedited service. I wouldn't do it. They get paid a healthy
sum from Apple every year, and you are not their client, Apple is.

Try to do whatever you are doing as an individual developer, get a hold of the
DUNS number/update info, and ask Apple to upgrade your account after the fact.

Best of luck

Charlie

------
niggler
I'm surprised -- i registered for a company developer account a few years ago
and they only required me to fax the articles of incorporation. Have the rules
changed since then?

------
cmatthias
This article is badly in need of an editor.

~~~
samdunne
Writing has never been a strong skill of mine. Hence the very few blog
postings

~~~
arscan
Don't worry, you got your message across. And blog more, it's a good way to
get better :)

~~~
samdunne
Thanks for the advice :). I didn't proof read it. Hence the 'it's'. Oh well,
lesson number 1 I guess

~~~
benatkin
Here's another tip: if you use a full stop at the end of your first sentences,
don't forget to add one to the end of your last. Otherwise you'll remind me of
Perl where semicolons are required to separate statements, but you may leave
off the semicolon after the last statement.

------
kybernetyk
Do they require DUNS numbers for non-us companies too? From the article it's
not really clear.

~~~
outworlder
They do.

Specially for non-US companies, I'd say.

------
philip1209
I find the second apostrophe awkward and awful.

------
jQueryIsAwesome
And if you live in a "obscure" country were they don't accept online payments
you have to send them a Fax with all your credit card information... yeah, a
fax! Even Amazon and Paypal accept online payments with my cc. I guess I am
lucky they didn't ask for a telegram. So much for one of the biggest companies
in the world.

~~~
samdunne
A fax? Is that not breaking a data protection law?

~~~
jQueryIsAwesome
Maybe? I just needed an iOS developer certificate. I lack resources to start
an international lawsuit against them anyway.

