

Google is building a Chrome app-based development environment - iamtechaddict
http://thenextweb.com/google/2013/11/21/google-building-chrome-app-based-development-environment-using-dart-polymer/?fromcat=all
https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;dart-lang&#x2F;spark
======
spankalee
This actually isn't a cloud-based IDE, it's a Chrome App and runs completely
locally and offline, editing a project on the local file system. You won't
need to log into anything or store your code on anyone else's servers, though
there is git integration.

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RivieraKid
Honestly, I don't see a point. Presumably, it originates from the belief that
the the web is the future and that it will finally replace native platforms. I
used to strongly believe in that too but now I don't think it will happen any
time soon, if at all.

Currently there are two kinds of platforms: the web, initilly intended for
_documents_ and native platforms, designed primarily for _apps_. Both have
different strengths. The web: no installation, hyperlinking, decentralization
and openess, etc. Native plaftorms: window manager, speed, collaboration
between apps, much richer API, centralization (enabling human interface
guidelines for example), etc.

A third platform having the best of both worlds would be great but that's just
my utopic dream :)

~~~
spankalee
You can try to get there by bringing the benefits of the web to apps, and by
bringing the benefits of apps to the web. We're already seeing this with
ChromeOS, FirefoxOS, Cordova, etc. on the web side, and various efforts to
streamline app installation, add deep linking, and other things on the app
side.

Personally, I think browsers can be a quite good application platform -
they're basically a view hierarchy, with a layout and styling system, an event
model, and scripting engine. With efforts like the *OS APIs, custom elements,
asm.js/PNaCl/Dart, WebGL, canvas, Service Workers... there's a lot you can do,
all in a stack that's easily accessible to millions of developers.

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zobzu
"they’re Google’s way of pushing the limits of the Web as a platform."

Nope, they're Google's way of extinguishing non-Chrome browsers. Only
Chrome/Chromium will be supported. That's called vendor lock-in - regardless
of being open source.

~~~
ahoge
Firefox's addons also only work with Firefox. Thunderbird and Komodo also only
work on top of the Mozilla platform. Eclipse and Netbeans needs Java. A bunch
of apps need Air.

You can make this work inside XULRunner if you want. You only have to write
some library which provides the same API as the chrome_gen package
(reading/writing files etc) and then import it instead of chrome_gen or just
overwrite the package. Everything else is regular web stuff.

Anyhow, using some apps which use Chrome as runtime doesn't meant that you
have to use Chrome as default browser. You only need to have it installed.
Just like any other runtime you're using.

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isaacwaller
I don't understand Chrome apps. They require installation and only work on
Chrome, so they come with none of the benefits of the web. They are slower and
uglier than native Windows/Mac/Linux apps. What's the point?

~~~
pkulak
They are just apps that use the ChromeOS development library (JS, HTML, CSS
and some custom APIs). Think of it like Cocoa on OS X. Except they can also
run in the Chrome browser on other OSes. I don't understand why people get so
riled up about this.

~~~
archagon
I think people get riled up because the humble browser is rapidly turning into
this: [http://i.imgur.com/XNRtCGh.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/XNRtCGh.jpg)

~~~
tadfisher
So browser extensions are bad now?

When can HN get off the hate train for everything new? This place is seriously
starting to depress me.

~~~
archagon
Well, most browser extensions relate to browsing. Google, on the other hand,
is trying to turn the browser into an OS. This is a really big shift that may
very well determine the future of computing, so I think there's plenty here
for people to get legitimately angry about. Not really the same kind of "hate
train" that occasionally shows up on project posts, I think.

~~~
techzomby
What's wrong with the Chrome browser becoming an OS? What you get is a fast
and secure OS. Most users spend most of the time on the browser anyways - why
not leverage that to make user's lives easier?

~~~
archagon
I don't know about others, but for me, it just doesn't make any conceptual
sense. Would you use Excel as a word processor? Would you use Lightroom for
mapping? The modern operating system offers so many amazing frameworks and
features; why throw that all away and start anew on a shaky foundation of
Javascript, HTML, and insanely complicated rendering code, all originally
designed for a completely different purpose?

I prefer my software to adhere to the single responsibility principle as much
as possible.

EDIT: Why are you downvoting me? If you disagree, that's what the reply button
is for. I'd like to think that HN is better than Reddit.

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ChuckMcM
Seems kind of obvious yes? I mean if you're building an OS (ChromeOS) and you
want to do native development, you build your tools to work in the OS right?
Or am I missing something here? One of the coolest things about early
databases was the 'web based' development environment, except for the sql
injection attacks of course :-)

~~~
mariusmg
There's no "native" development. It's just HTML and CSS. Don't know why we
would need another "IDE" to write html but whatever....

~~~
tadfisher
The native runtime environment for apps in ChromeOS is HTML/JS/CSS. The term
"native" is not always used to refer to on-the-metal environments.

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nmb
There will be at least three development platforms called Spark now, the
others being
[http://spark.incubator.apache.org/](http://spark.incubator.apache.org/) and
[https://github.com/meteor/meteor/wiki/Spark](https://github.com/meteor/meteor/wiki/Spark)

------
yeukhon
> Dart meanwhile is Google’s open-source Web programming language, which has
> an ultimate goal of replacing JavaScript. Polymer is Google’s library for
> the Web, built on top of Web Components, and “designed to leverage the
> evolving web platform on modern browsers.”

Go, Dart, Angular.js and now Dart and Polymer. Am I the only one seeing the
next wave of confusions?

~~~
svachalek
Because the web was simple and homogenous before this?

~~~
yeukhon
I will be fair and the answer is no, but at least for the last 2-3 years we
have a little stable environment. If it's ruby app we know it's rail, if it's
Python we know it's either Django or Flask (or Pyramid). When we think about
client side we think of jQuery and pure Javascript. I know there are coffee
script lovers and I admit it's great that people coming up with new tools, but
we have too much to digest.

There is a certain degree of peer pressure coming from our co-workers and our
webdev community - if you are programming in PHP you are doing it wrong or if
you are still doing MVC and not single-page app or node.js you are behind the
trend. I have little knowledge about what Dart does but from multiple sources
people seem to think Dart is Google's alternative to Javascript, which makes
me uncomfortable because I start to feel like I am at the second Web/browser
war where large organizations like Google is pushing their own version of
"Javascript" (back then we got what? javascript, active script? etc?).

~~~
coldtea
> _I will be fair and the answer is no, but at least for the last 2-3 years we
> have a little stable environment. If it 's ruby app we know it's rail, if
> it's Python we know it's either Django or Flask (or Pyramid). When we think
> about client side we think of jQuery and pure Javascript._

If you think that, then you're misguided.

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nhebb
What is the practical use case here? Before this there were Microsoft HTA's
and Mozilla's XUL apps, neither of which had widespread adoption among
developers.

~~~
daliusd
Short:

* HTML apps potentially will work everywhere (if you will take care they will at least work on Firefox, Opera and Chrome).

* There are HTML5 tools and knowledge already in place. Plus years of experience in HTML can be used.

Long:

IMHO developers should look into the future here not into today but even today
you can do quite a lot. XUL most probably failed because there were no tools,
learning material and libraries (I'm not sure about HTA). In addition XUL
worked only on single browser. I have managed to write XUL app 7 years ago but
I had to invest quite a lot of time and the whole development process was
quite slow.

HTML apps meanwhile do not require quite a lot of investment and if you
already have some HTML5/CSS/JS knowledge there are only several holes of
knowledge to fill. The only problem is to select good tools, find out right
information and you can start right now. E.g. if you have canvas based game or
static web site with useful information you can create app now: just add
application cache's manifest file, add some meta information (in case of
Firefox OS create *.webapp file) and you are done.

My background: I don't know HTA. I am familiar with XUL. In addition I'm
familiar with QtQuick (QML + JavaScript), Firefox OS Apps, I guess I could
learn developing Chrome Apps pretty quickly. I'm familiar with native
development for Windows, Linux Desktop, Android and iOS.

~~~
nhebb
HTA (HTML Application -
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Application](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Application))
was Microsoft's foray into sandboxed HTML + CSS + JS applications back in
1999.

~~~
daliusd
Ouch, I have worked with this once. That is living (dead?) proof that ideas
are nothing and implementation is all what matters. I remember that I had even
to do some very exotic workarounds using C++ to overcome one shortcoming of
HTA.

------
busterc
Dandy, but Chrome Apps will only ever be marginally more widespread than
ChromeOS.

Q. Why? A. Node-WebKit Apps aren't crippled with the sandboxing of the Chrome
App API and easily let me target Win/Lin/OSX without requiring the Chrome
runtime.

FWIW, I like ChromeOS and would buy a couple of ChromeBoxes for family
members, if they had reasonably sized hard drives (200+GB)(SATA) for pictures
& videos, and weren't so dependent on Google Drive. Non-tech savvy _NEED_
ChromeOS, they don't need GDrive.

How many of us need yet another IDE for HTML5, CSS & JS? Not me, thanks
though. Please Google, get back to autonomous cars and get serious about
ChromeOS already.

------
mythz
Great looking forward to this, as I believe this strategy of being able to
hack directly on a shared code-base from a browser-based IDE will end up being
the most productive environment, especially if it's integrated and can easily
consume managed PAAS infrastructure services without the hassle of maintaining
or trying to scale them yourself. Having an auto-updated IDE will also be a
nice change.

I haven't been excited about web-based IDE's previously as all the ones I've
tried have been clunky and slow, but it looks like this is being built with
Dart so should offer better start-up and runtime performance given it will be
running natively on the DartVM inside Chrome App.

Looking forward to the day that I'm able to login, hassle-free to any ChromeOS
PC and have instant access to my working environment. Which will be useful if
you ever want to upgrade your workstation, e.g. when it breaks down or a shiny
new model comes out.

------
Grue3
Chrome is becoming the new IE6. Just yesterday I got notified of some new
feature in Gmail... of course it worked only in Chrome. Fuck that.

~~~
dgregd
> Chrome is becoming the new IE6

Web developers hated IE6 not for new features it had. It was hated for lack of
bug fixes and no new releases.

IE7 was released 5 years after IE6. Chrome is updated every 6 weeks.

------
laureny
Before Android, I would have been super excited to read this, but now...?

Seems like it's yet another technology that Android will soon be steamrolling.

~~~
daliusd
Could you give any reason for your excitement for Android? Android is popular
now but that does not mean that it will be popular forever. Fort Model T and
Sony Walkman are good examples of things that were popular once.

~~~
laureny
I never said I was excited about Android nor that it will be popular forever.

I was just observing that Google's strategy regarding Chrome OS makes no sense
to me in the presence of Android.

~~~
daliusd
Android is quite poor desktop OS :)

------
ecesena
Quick link: [https://github.com/dart-lang/spark](https://github.com/dart-
lang/spark)

------
Rafert
Any relationship to the cloud IDE Brightly that seemed to have been killed
somewhere in 2011-2012? The leaked 'Future of Javascript' Google memo from
2010 mentions they expected Brightly to be the first app written in Dart
(which was called Dash at the time).

------
ghostdiver
Chrome Apps did not work so far(zero traction), why do they want to waste ever
more time on it?

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wiradikusuma
So this is like Adobe AIR? (FYI Adobe AIR also supports HTML in addition to
Flash)

~~~
ahoge
Yes, Chrome Apps can make use of the Chrome Platform API which allows them to
do all kinds of privileged things (if the required permissions were given).

[http://developer.chrome.com/apps/api_index.html](http://developer.chrome.com/apps/api_index.html)

So... yea, it's very similar. Both are some sort of web-related runtime which
can be used for all kinds of applications thanks to additional APIs which make
the environment less restrictive.

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TIJ
they gonna end up giving such developer access to everyone where we'd be
making standalone app every other day in short more power and more apps i am
super excited about it.

~~~
coldtea
Yes, just what we need, more crappy apps.

~~~
TIJ
how can you be so sure of that and even if i will come up with crappy apps
maybe some big professional company comes up with something that you will end
up using you never know...;)

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islon
"Dart meanwhile is Google’s open-source Web programming language, which has an
ultimate goal of replacing JavaScript." Good luck on that. On my side if I
were to see JS replaced I would choose Lua as a replacement.

~~~
toddan
why not byte code then we all get what we want.

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frodopwns
Integrate with Google Drive and I'm sold.

~~~
patrickaljord
Files will use the chrome file syncing api.

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gress
I look forward to the day when chrome is the only OS and all the proprietary
OSs have finally died out.

~~~
72deluxe
You don't see Chrome OS as proprietary? It might be "open" but Google surely
has a massive stake in it?

Surely the least proprietary mainstream OS would be Linux?

~~~
gress
I guess the irony didn't come over in my original comment.

~~~
72deluxe
My irony filter had been ironed over....

Irony now understood :-)

