
How to Escape the Community College Trap - vellum
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/01/how-to-escape-the-community-college-trap/355745/?single_page=true
======
hello_newman
This article was absolutely fabulous. I come from the community college
setting, and this rings all too true for me.

At the community college I attended, it was a feeder school for many Orange
County students. There was a general feeling of "High School Part 2" and an
incredibly laid back climate. There also happened to be over 26k students, and
classes were constantly too full. After having to schedule an appointment 3
weeks in advance with a counselor to discuss my options of getting into some B
level school, I was told it would take me 6 semesters, or 3 years. I decided
to learn to code.

I dropped out, hit the library, and started learning. Then, I applied to, and
got accepted, into Dev Bootcamp. However, my mom ended up getting diagnosed
with breast cancer, and in an effort to stay closer to her, I ended up getting
accepted into General Assembly's Web Devlopment Immersive in Santa Monica. I
decided to take a path of books, library study time, and self guided learning
utilizing the many resources available to me such as; weekly coding sessions
with Keith from DBC, Stack Overflow, and Google.

"The “beginning of the unbundling of the American university” is how one
observer has described the transformation. All it will take for students to
avail themselves of this emerging opportunity is a clear sense of where
they’re headed, lots of self-motivation, and good access to information about
what mix of skills is likely to lead to a promising career."

This above statement could not be more correct. Although the tools are out
there for you to learn and become whatever it is you want to do, there is
almost too much information. You need someone to guide you through the
obstacles on your own individual path.

One thing I do hope we see more of, is a push for continued learning and
education. It appears the vast majority of people entering and graduating from
our 4 year Univerisites, view college as an end all to education. There needs
to be a bigger push for learning in general. I suppose this is easier said
than done, however.

~~~
reneherse
I think of the educational path that you’re taking as the “auto-didact web
development model”. There are several factors that make this path viable
(educationally and as a conduit to employment), including:

• a vibrant sector of the economy driving job growth;

• wide sharing of domain knowledge within an online community;

• accepted patterns of skill demonstration and social proof (beyond the
traditional credential of a degree);

• low startup and ongoing cost of materials (computer ownership and access to
commodity servers);

• willingness of professionals to act as mentors (whether through profit
motives or generosity).

As a lifelong autodidact with an educational path that has been less
structured than the above, I’m interested to see if elements of this pattern
can work for self guided education in other fields... creating systems of non
traditional educational guidance and credentialing. Part of the "the
unbundling of the American university”, as you put it.

[Edit: formatting]

~~~
hello_newman
I think there should be more emphasis towards self guided education in other
fields. However, in a lot of ways web development and other sectors of
programming, is an anomaly. Tech is one of the few true meritocracies left in
this world, where it really doesn't matter where you came from as long as you
can program. One of my instructors at GA is a fantastic programmer, and he
dropped out of high school.

Your points for why tech works as a viable path are hard to reproduce in other
fields, however that doesn't mean it's impossible. That needs to change, and I
think companies likes Udacity which not only provide courses, but also
support, will lead the way in this paradigm shift.

------
mason240
I went to community college, got an associates, and went to complete a BS in
CS. Like pretty much everything else in life, you will get out what you put
in.

If you are an unmotivated person who didn't take the traditional path of going
to a 4 year school right after HS, chances are you are probably going to still
be unmotivated when you go CC and end up dropping out.

If you were unable to take the traditional 4 year approach because life got in
the way (like a young pregnancy, coming from a poor, rural family), then CC is
going to give you a chance that wouldn't have had otherwise.

When I was at CC, I never got the impression that goal of the system was to
get everyone an associates degree and then into a 4 year to complete a
bachelors, but rather to give the people in the second category a path to a
bachelors.

I really hate using the term, but the writers of the this article must be
extremely privileged and out of touch if they don't understand that not
everyone get the chances to go from HS graduation to living in the dorms as
freshman, and the CC system is a great tool for upward mobility.

~~~
rndmize
Did you even read the article? The entire point made is that not everyone has
the opportunity to do college straight out of high school for any number of
reasons, and those students, often without strong life/career/academic
guidance, don't succeed in the current community college systems. The author
examines the success of a new system with a strong emphasis on advising,
guidance, and providing poor students the things they need - book loans,
money, etc. - so they can effectively succeed at a CC.

> Like pretty much everything else in life, you will get out what you put in.

This is exactly the kind of idea the article is largely running counter to.
Putting in the time and the effort isn't going to take you as far as you need
to go if you have to figure out everything yourself from scratch; if you have
no idea what to major in, or how to pick a major, or what majors are
worthwhile; or if you have to take care of a kid, or work a job, and take
remedial classes at the same time; if you don't have peers you can turn to
that can provide good advice...

Kids from the burbs grow up with certain skills and attitudes and approaches
indoctrinated into them from the start, and the "do everything yourself"
approach may work for them because they have that prior grounding. That
doesn't mean it will work for everyone.

------
protomyth
"In the community-college world, McGee’s achievement is a shockingly rare
feat, and the program that so intently encouraged him to accomplish it is a
striking anomaly."

This article isn't my experience, but I come out of the tribal community
college system. Maybe the tribal colleges are an anomaly, but they do
mentoring and monitoring because nothing else really works. Technology is used
to provide individual tutoring and a lot of support. A lot of the students are
older than average and most have families. Vocational programs and standard
academic classes are taught so vocational students can easily move to
academics. The GED program at the college is always busy picking up where the
high school failed.

All classes transfer because they wouldn't be taught otherwise and a close
working relationship with the state with common course numbering being used
with all state institutions and tribals schools. This allows students to pick
up the big generals in a smaller setting with tutor and various academic
program support. Plus, the cost is much lower.

Also, some students take college courses during their senior (and sometimes
junior) year in high school. Their cost is like $15/credit hour and it
transfers.

Beyond education, many tribal community colleges are centers for activities in
the community and often a focus point for government programs.

~~~
slurry
Do tribal colleges have significantly better graduation rates than mainstream
community colleges? I'm having a hard time finding good, current, nationwide
numbers online, but that seems implausible on its face.

(On the other hand, it seems very plausible tribal colleges have excellent
programs to maximize grad rates as much as possible.)

~~~
protomyth
Uhm, I'm not sure, good stats are a bit of a problem and it is a bit of an
apples and oranges comparison due to the number of high school dropouts that
need to get their GED first. Most non-tribal community colleges really don't
go in for the GED or the vocational education that are staples of tribal
efforts. Also, sadly, many of the high school "experiences" have not prepared
students for higher education.

So, it really depends on what the goal is this time around. Is it a vocational
certification, industry certifications (e.g. Microsoft Office Specialist), AA
or AS degree, GED, or just some classes before a 4 year college. Getting to a
goal is a little more important than "maximize grad rates"[1].

I guess if you have the frame of mind as "community educator" then it makes
sense[2] and it really is a bit of a different world.

1) that is important, but it has to be with the students on a graduation track

2) CPR is a popular class

------
dkokelley
Here's a data point:

Being the oldest of 6 children meant that my parents could not afford to send
me to any of my first choice schools. This actually meant an early career
redirection for me (as I had planned to become a pilot after studying at
Embry-Riddle). 16-19 year old me did not fully appreciate the cost of pilot
training, and after about a dozen hours I could not afford training.

I refocused after "plan A" fell through, and went to my city's community
college (College of the Canyons, or COC). To many students, COC was considered
"the 13th grade" \- an extension of high school. Still, COC was incredibly
inexpensive at around $20/unit. Here's a college secret, freshmen units and
senior units generally cost the same within schools. I was able to complete
two years of lower division study and G.E. at the incredibly affordable COC
rate, and then transfer to CSU Northridge to complete my B.S. Between COC and
the California State school (as well as working to afford my own books and
school supplies), my parents were able to put me through school with enough
savings left over to afford my younger siblings a college education.

~~~
a3n
Essentially what I did, two years CC, finishing up my BS at university.

------
coldcode
Comparing community colleges with Harvard does a disservice to the many state
4 year colleges and universities that still offer a great education. I
volunteered at one in Texas and none of the students had it easy, but 90%
still graduated in four years. They might not be as cheap as a community
college but it's a far better comparison than Harvard.

------
barry-cotter
If there are age restrictions on the ASAP programme they are not mentioned in
the article. If you live in New York City and high school sucks you should
apply for this programme if you are planning on going to a state college. I
would guess you can get in as a 16 year old with a GED. High school sucks for
plenty of people.

As an obvious consequence of the above reasoning this programme or something
like it will eventually be dominated by middle class applicants. Places are
allocated on a first come, first served basis. As I type this article is being
forwarded by some Tiger Mom who wants to save on undergrad because their
darling is going to grad school anyway.

------
tessierashpool
I live in a town with an unusually good community college. The new president
just got fired because she enacted a graduation-centric agenda which
antagonized both the faculty and the student body.

Part-timers enjoying themselves outnumber serious full-timers in this
community, and a community college should, imo, embody its community's
priorities. Being able to take great courses cheaply, on your own schedule, is
fantastic.

I think programs like ASAP have a lot of merit, but the OP assumes that
graduation's success and anything else is failure. I think they're using
simple metrics to look at a complex space.

~~~
dhimes
That's always been a problem for the CC- especially in a metropolitan area.
For most of the successful students graduation is _not_ the final outcome.
There are two major categories of student for which this is true:

(1) The student has a degree in, say, accounting, but wants to go into, for
example, physical therapy or medicine. She needs to take some science classes,
but has most of her college requirements fulfilled. She can do this at the cc
part time. (2 The student intends to pursue a four year degree. He doesn't
need to graduate from the cc to do so; he just needs to fulfill (what some
call) a transfer block. As a case-in-point, the cc at which I used to teach
had a physical education requirement for graduation. A long-ago president
instituted this rule, and nobody changed it. Most transferring students don't
want to spend the time and money for this requirement just so that they can
say they graduated. They fill their transfer block requirements and go.

------
elteto
Community colleges are an excellent choice for those looking to get a quality
education with minimal costs. Go to a community college for 2 years, complete
the necessary course prerequisites for whatever major you want to pursue and
then transfer to a state college to finish your Bachelor's and take the
hardcore courses. Many community colleges also have special or honors programs
that impose some requirements on the students (such as a minimum course load
of 12 credits/semester) but provide dedicated advising (some of you might not
understand how important this is, but advisers can make or break your career
path at some points, specially in community colleges) and also tuition
waivers.

I followed a very similar path to McGee's: went to a very large urban
community college and got accepted to their honors program. I completed my
first two years completely debt free, while getting a top notch education in
the classes that I cared about (sciences mostly) and then transferred to a
state university which is in the top 15 nationwide for my major. In all I
saved around $30k for those two years. One of the downsides is that the
quality of the education in community colleges varies wildly from one
professor to another. I solved this by carefully selecting my professors and
actively seeking the good ones. I found that attending a community college was
in no way detrimental to my education when I compare myself with other
students who went straight to the university after HS.

------
Spooky23
So community colleges are traps because twenty something's who cannot read or
write aren't graduating in two years?

Community colleges are the way out for folks who fall off the path early. Many
also provide vocational options as well. The problems described mostly reflect
the demographics that they serve.

~~~
Filter
Did you read the article?

Holding pedagogical standards constant, more people were able to graduate due
to the ASAP program. The implication is that many of the students who
currently fail at community colleges do not do so because they are incapable,
but because they need guidance and structure.

>Community colleges are the way out for folks who fall off the path early.

What path? Is a four year college the expected path?

>The problems described mostly reflect the demographics that they serve.

I'm uncertain what you are trying to say. Do the problems of a certain
demographic not matter? Is the ASAP program mistaken for helping the wrong
demographic graduate?

~~~
Spooky23
Some kids get out of high school and find their way. They go to college, join
the military, start working in a trade, etc. That's the "path" that I'm
referring to.

Others don't. They end up working in marginal jobs or jobs without a good
career path. In the meantime life goes on. They have children. They have
ailing parents. Or any of a thousand other distractions.

Point is, for many, there isn't a "trap" in community college education. The
ability to affordably take a couple of courses a year when you work one or two
jobs and raise a child is success. Programs like ASAP are awesome and will
help many, but the article implies that the overall concept of community
college is a failure. That's an assertion that I do not believe to be true.

------
jpace121
Transferring from a Community College to a state 4-year is very common in
Florida. I dual-enrolled in high school and wound up only a semester short of
my AA, so I stayed and finished it up before transferring. The local CC does a
very good job at preparing students and giving tutoring/other services
necessary to teach students what they need to know, which Universities can't
really do, and MOOCs flat out fail at.

------
gmays
Another data point.

I went to a community college (Modesto Junior College, to be specific) because
my parents couldn't afford state college. I noticed that most people treated
it like High School II, but that seemed more because those are mostly (not
all) the kinds of people who ended up there. It seemed most of the ones with
goals (or money, or parental encouragement) ended up at "real" college.

I applied to a college and got in, but knew for a while that I'd be going to
community college due to our financial situation. I'm mostly black, but also
part Native American and Mexican but didn't apply for any scholarships or
student loans. I guess it was a pride thing to my parents. Knowing what I know
now, I probably would have.

Sure, at the community college I went to you could say that classes were full
and give just about any other reason for not making it through, but if you
look for an excuse you'll always find one. I started taking classes in the
summer two weeks after finishing high school. I took around twice the full-
time student workload, but the following summer I finished the two year's
worth of prerequisites needed to transfer.

I transferred to a local state college (Cal State Stanislaus) and earned my BA
with honors a little over a year later. The whole degree took about 2.5 years
from high school (summer 2003) to graduating (winter 2005) and this includes
taking off one whole summer to work. I had the financial pressure. I was
constantly told by my mom that she my not be able to afford to keep sending me
to college, but luckily I finished before the money ran out. But even if the
financial pressure wasn't there, I think I would have worked hard anyway. It's
in my nature.

It is what you make of it. I know it sounds silly, but I haven't found one
situation in my life that I couldn't influence or over come if I worked hard
enough.

~~~
Filter
>but if you look for an excuse you'll always find one

Then why does the program described in the article work?

>It is what you make of it. I know it sounds silly, but I haven't found one
situation in my life that I couldn't influence or over come if I worked hard
enough.

It does sound silly -- and the program described in the article undermines
this idea in general. Or were you just bragging?

------
d64f396930663ee
At the community college I went to, you took as many or as few classes as you
wanted, and could quit and return at any semester as you pleased.

What's with all the bullshit rules and time pressure?

~~~
Espressosaurus
The bullshit rules and time pressure are all part of making sure you actually
make it through the system.

I, for example, took 4 years to get a two year degree in part because I didn't
know where I was going, not all of the classes transferred, and the classes
needed to transfer were different depending on which school you went to. So,
you cover your bases since you might not get into your chosen school...

------
PaulHoule
My wife did two years at a community college and then transferred into Cornell
but she's definitely an anomaly.

~~~
textminer
I bounced from one to a liberal arts college to Columbia. Also an anomaly, but
it was a fantastic learning experience (and quite the redemption from terrible
high school performance).

------
zhemao
These high graduation rates are quite impressive and certainly nothing to
scoff about, but I'm curious about the employment rate or median income of the
graduates. The article doesn't mention these things at all, even though
offering a path to the middle class is the ultimate goal of the program.

~~~
loomio
Can't say anything about specific graduates, but overall statistics indicate
that someone with a degree has about half the likelihood of being unemployed
as someone without.

Some quick stats from Wikipedia:

> The average salary for college or university graduates is greater than
> $51,000, exceeding the national average of those without a high school
> diploma by more than $23,000, according to a 2005 study by the U.S. Census
> Bureau. The 2010 unemployment rate for high school graduates was 10.8%; the
> rate for college graduates was 4.9%

Of course, college is not a panacea for everyone, but having a degree
significantly reduces your chances of unemployment and poverty in general.

In addition, education confers life benefits beyond simply employment, such as
increased understanding of the world and critical thinking skills, writing
ability, numeracy, etc.

~~~
zhemao
Oh I know that a college degree is helpful in general, but I meant this
program specifically. Aggregate statistics can sometimes be misleading.

------
qwerta
I found it very strange he had problems with basic math and writing, after 2
years in prison. He obviously had interest in education and wanted to learn.

In most European countries one can actually graduate INSIDE prison.

~~~
a3n
Depends on when he had his moment of clarity. You could just as easily have
said that it's strange he went to prison at all. People fall, some get up,
there is no schedule.

------
mkramlich
I think this is just data point N that's consistent with so-called "higher
education", if not government schooling alone, being increasingly revealed to
be a very inefficient -- where not outright distortive or parasitic --
phenomenon that's simply a holdover from a previous age. Whether we call that
the Middle Ages, or the early Industrial era, etc. It's clearly an
anachronism, in terms of process and technology and assumptions. Good
riddance! Not all "education" is good. And not all learning requires
"education", formal or otherwise. Book learning can occur outside/without a
classroom/school paradigm. And much of the correct-vs-false mechanisms and
signal-extraction-or-broadcast mechanisms of traditional education can be
replaced, or at least massively automated/optimized, with software. And like
the general phenomenon where information bits want to be free, an increasing
amount of static educational material is going to become effectively free and
public domain. First the purely static experiences, like text, but an
increasing amount of the dynamic and interactive experiences as well.

Education, government and banking are all up for yet more huge disruptions and
shifts due to computers and the Internet.

