
1177 BC – The Year Civilization Collapsed [video] - dmlhllnd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyry8mgXiTk
======
KhalilK
Unfortunately I can't recommend the book. It's a fascinating subject, but ...
Much/most of the book is devoted to what various Eastern Mediterranean
civilizations were like before the Collapse of the Late Bronze Age. It's
useful as an introduction so that you can get some idea of what collapsed, but
it shouldn't be most of the book.

The treatment of the collapse itself is fairly shallow. I know the collapse is
still mysterious and comparatively little is known about it, but that's why a
book like this should be so interesting. Surely there is enough information to
fill a comparatively short book like this. The ever mysterious Sea People's
are mentioned of course, but other than noting that they weren't just one
group and that the Egyptians defeated one group of invaders he says little.
There is the usual "they may have been from here, or perhaps there" but it
doesn't go into much detail about the different theories. The possible causes
of the collapse aren't discussed much either. Basically it says "stuff fell
apart and here are some examples". I know that much of this stuff is far from
settled but discussing the evidence and arguments for various theories is a
good approach. Talking about how new civilizations arose after the collapse
would have been interesting too; much more than endless detail about pre-
collapse civilizations like the Minoans.

~~~
OvidNaso
Take my opinion with a grain of salt because I put this books down after only
100 pages or so, but it seemed to exemplify my main gripe with many/most
popular science/non-fiction publications these days...padding. Many authors
seem to have a great ~150 page thesis, but publishers push hard that best
sellers are 400-600 pages.

~~~
novaleaf
that was my main problem with "The Lean Startup" too. it was really really
hard to finish it when only 10% of the content was actionable (the rest
anecdotal)

~~~
joecasson
I often find myself reading about 30% of books like "The Lean Startup," and
moving on. Not necessarily the first 30%, but overall. Understand the thesis,
and move on.

I have yet to find a business book where this doesn't apply. I only finish the
ones where I particularly like the writing style or the anecdotes.

~~~
ajmurmann
Have you read "The hard thing about hard things"? I found it had very little
padding and was loaded to the rim with valuable information.

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adrianratnapala
I like the "it's complicated" theory, but it also a bit of a cop-out. Can we
not have a meta-theory? Here are three candidates:

1) Climate change. Doesn't directly cause famines because people adapt; but
the adaptation might be e.g to become wondering marauders. Thus war,
destruction famine etc.

2) Technological change. Iron-working upset existing power balances. The
political results were different in different places but in the end there was
a whole lot of war and chaos.

3) Luck. History is complicated and random things happen at all scales.
Including total collapses of civilisations.

In each of these, the proximate causes of destruction are a complicated
networks of events. But there are higher level explanations behind them.

Are these more general explanations testable? Are there good arguments for or
against any of them?

~~~
DonaldFisk
Joseph Tainter's theory (The Collapse of Complex Societies) is even more
general. Societies collapse when "continued investment in complexity as a
problem-solving strategy yields a declining marginal return". The idea is that
initially, solutions to problems are found and society becomes more complex as
a result, but the benefit of the solutions exceeds the cost of the complexity.
But as the society develops, the benefit in the form of solutions to problems
become smaller and the cost of servicing the additional complexity becomes
larger, until the cost exceeds the benefit. Then things break down and society
is forced to become a lot simpler.

~~~
gaius
It's also that to manage the complexity, individuals become hyper-specialized.
So when a crisis comes along, that civilization can't repurpose people quickly
enough to cope.

~~~
DonaldFisk
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a
hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a
wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act
alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a
computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization
is for insects." — Robert Heinlein

~~~
jacquesm
It's my favorite Heinlein quote by far and I try to live by it but in the
short term there is much to be gained for an individual by specializing,
specialists tend to rake in the big bucks, generalists not so much.

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ajb
For those who don't want to watch the video, its about this book:
[http://www.npr.org/books/titles/341580791/1177-b-c-the-
year-...](http://www.npr.org/books/titles/341580791/1177-b-c-the-year-
civilization-collapsed)

------
arethuza
I inherited a fascination with this time period from my father who acquired it
from an Oxbridge educated colleague in the RAF during WW2 - who took copies of
Homer on their adventures.

My fascination was fed by the excellent 1980s BBC series "In Search of the
Trojan War" with Michael Wood, which covers some of the same topics:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkbUQKyie_w&list=PLH2l6uzC4U...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkbUQKyie_w&list=PLH2l6uzC4UEVdmfoR1awrHKEJFIsbcdu6)
[NB Warning of nipples].

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xtiansimon
Great video. Thank you for posting.

Not a scholar of ancient history nor anthropology, so I'm inclined to gloss
over the social mechanisms. What is fascinating to me is the application of
"systems collapse" theory.

I'm thinking of two contexts. On the one hand there are complex systems;
Systems too large for humans to comprehend in total. This inclines us towards
abstraction, dimension reduction and model-theoretic approaches which only
simulate effects.

While on the other hand we have sudden collapse of complex systems. Popular
examples which come to mind include Malcolm Gladwell's "Tipping Point",
cascade failure (ex. Collapse of the World Trade Center, multiple organ
failure).

Now I can add 1177 BC to my list of examples.

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dmoo
Also the In Our Time Podcast
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07fl5bh](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07fl5bh)

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tankenmate
With the mention of drought and famine in the Levant possibly leading to
internal rebellion it makes you think of modern day Syria.[0]

[0] [http://www.npr.org/2013/09/08/220438728/how-could-a-
drought-...](http://www.npr.org/2013/09/08/220438728/how-could-a-drought-
spark-a-civil-war)

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peter303
Horses and iron weapons. Neither are mentioned in the Iliad, just before this
period. And it is documented when the Egyptions learned these technologies in
the New Kingdom after being pummeled by more capable barbarians.

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YeGoblynQueenne
I bet I'm far from the only one who wants an RPG supplement for adventuring in
that era.

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wkafou
The analogy of ISIS and sea people is spot on.However, we can safely say the
ISIS was an outcome from a chaotic situation in the first place ; not caused
by famine or climate change perhaps but much more sinister reasons.

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aorth
Love it! Reminds me of Dan Carlin's "Kings of Kings" series in his Hardcore
History podcast. The world was fascinating back then. Even the names of
people/places were epic: Ninevah, the Elamites, the Assyrians, Ahura Mazda,
Marduk, etc! So epic!

[http://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-56-kings-of-
kings/](http://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-56-kings-of-kings/)

------
nemo1618
Is this the same period cited by Julian Jaynes in his theory of the bicameral
mind?

[http://www.meltingasphalt.com/hallucinated-
gods/](http://www.meltingasphalt.com/hallucinated-gods/)

------
wfeui3
Oriental Institute youtube channel has some great videos.

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jchernan
Thank you for posting, I really enjoyed this video. What books or videos would
you recommend to gain general knowledge about history from the Bronze Age to
the fall of the Roman empire?

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random_upvoter
Cline also did a wonderful series of audio lectures on the archaeology of
Troy. (The Modern Scholar: Archaeology and the Iliad: The Trojan War in Homer
and History)

------
maxerickson
What about disease?

Also, the displacement of god-kings by divine creators?

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etqwzutewzu
tl;dw please?

~~~
haalcion3
You should watch in full. It was really nice.

Summary:

* It is assumed that there was no single reason for the "collapse of civilization" (in Aegean, Eastern Mediterrean, Eygpt, and Near East) between ~1200-1000 BC. At the time, it seems there were droughts, famines, earthquakes, invaders, and rebellions; havoc was caused, international trade routes cut, and many cities were destroyed.

* Parallels drawn at end to modern society with exception of the migration and/or invasion of "sea people" (actually people from several areas).

* Eric then at end says that he's not in a position to provide advice for what we should do, but seems to suggest that when history runs its course, it is likely that good things come from the destruction, citing the Alphabet and monotheism as coming after the 1200-1000 BC collapse (end Bronze Age) and fresh growth coming after a large forest fire.

I think the forest fire at the end could have been left out. While I like the
optimism he was trying to relay, I think that some could take it is a reason
for actively trying to light the powder keg by causing further destabilization
in order to bring about a renewal.

Also, the problem with comparing the dark ages then to what would happen today
is that they weren't that bad:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages)

Trade was not relied on as much as it is now for food, material to build
shelter, fuel for transportation, etc.

Many countries today could not become self-sufficient without a great deal of
death and disease if trade routes were cut off.

And, our civilization is more at risk because we rely on electronics and
electricity. If a large portion of the electronic equipment were rendered
unusable by a well-coordinated set of strong EMP's/nukes going off (unlikely),
a very large coronal mass ejection (more likely), or cyberattack on the
electrical grid (most likely), that would disable our water, food production,
hospitals, and heating/cooling. Few have the resources they need to survive or
even physical books to teach themselves anything that would be useful (plants
in their area that are safe to eat, how to build weapons and hunt, how to find
fresh water, remedies for disease using local plants). Many have not made
social connections with neighbors.

Note: EMP/CME cannot be mitigated by storing an extra phone or computer in a
Faraday cage, even if you were to have a few bikes to generate electricity for
it. What are you going to do with it other than use a text editor to store
recipes for roasted squirrel and dandelion stew?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859)

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3838433/The-D...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3838433/The-
DOOMSDAY-plan-EU-prepares-dark-scenario-cyber-attacks-devastate-power-
communication-networks.html)

[http://www.federaltimes.com/articles/emerging-focus-on-
cyber...](http://www.federaltimes.com/articles/emerging-focus-on-cyber-
threats-to-energy-infrastructure)

~~~
haalcion3
If any of those things happen, you'll need clean water. In addition to storing
some water, you'll need a renewable supply. Though distillation is the best
technique, some other options are discussed here:

[http://www.practicalsurvivor.com/emergencywaterfiltration](http://www.practicalsurvivor.com/emergencywaterfiltration)

Aside from reading how to make a filter yourself with mosses, carbon, and
stones, this is one that's recommended: Sawyer Products SP191 Point Zero Two
Bucket Purifier Assembly Kit with Faucet Adapter

As for shelter and heating/cooling, some interesting ideas here like using a
tent indoors: [https://dengarden.com/home-improvement/How-to-keep-warm-
in-t...](https://dengarden.com/home-improvement/How-to-keep-warm-in-the-
winter-without-electricity-and-keep-cool-in-the-summer)

More ideas:

[http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-37923.h...](http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-37923.html)

[http://urbansurvivalsite.com/ways-to-stay-cool-without-
power...](http://urbansurvivalsite.com/ways-to-stay-cool-without-power/)

Go solar, assuming the related equipment isn't damaged:

[http://news.energysage.com/cheapest-solar-panels-price-
per-w...](http://news.energysage.com/cheapest-solar-panels-price-per-watt/)

[http://fortune.com/2016/06/13/solar-to-get-crazy-
cheap/](http://fortune.com/2016/06/13/solar-to-get-crazy-cheap/)

