
American Airlines Bans Wearing Too Much Personal Protection Equipment on Board - miles
https://viewfromthewing.com/american-airlines-bans-wearing-too-much-personal-protection-equipment-on-board/
======
tlbsofware
Ozone generators are a safety hazard to other passengers so I’m glad they are
banning the use of those, the EPA states that ozone can:

“ When inhaled, ozone can damage the lungs. Relatively low amounts can cause
chest pain, coughing, shortness of breath and throat irritation. Ozone may
also worsen chronic respiratory diseases such as asthma and compromise the
ability of the body to fight respiratory infections.”

EPA.gov/indoor-air-quality-iaq/ozone-generators-are-sold-air-cleaners

~~~
tyingq
Do be aware that some passengers have oxygen generators that could be mistaken
for an ozone generator.

~~~
m463
My friend had one, and it would generate oxygen, and simultaneously fill a
portable tank for going out.

I don't know the protocol for air travel - do you generate O2 with a device
during your travel or carry an oxygen tank?

I could imagine scenarios where a pressurized tank on an airline is bad, and
also scenarios where a device would be bad too.

I've also heard of people that had medical conditions and they just weren't
allowed on the plane at all.

~~~
cameldrv
Oxygen concentrators are allowed, but they have to be FAA approved, you have
to have a prescription, and they have to be battery powered (you can't plug
them into the seat power).

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wizzwizz4
The reason for this is safety.

If the cabin depressurises, a little oxygen mask pops down from the top. You
have a few seconds to put this on your face before you're unconscious¹, and a
few minutes after that for _somebody else_ to put it on your face before
you're dead. Try doing _that_ while inside a tent.

(I'm don't know whether this conclusion is statistically valid, considering
how few non-Boeing's have been depressurising v.s. the proportion of the
population with COVID-19, but it feels intuitively right, and that's how these
decisions have been made lately.)

¹: read "not usefully conscious"; you might still be awake, but your brain
won't be doing much thinking or hand-moving.

~~~
tyingq
_" You have a few seconds to put this on your face before you're unconscious"_

Is that correct? People can obviously hold their breath for longer than that.
Is it something like panic causing you not to hold your breath?

~~~
bdonlan
When you hold your breath, oxygenated air remains in your lungs. This allows
you to maintain consciousness for potentially a minute or two.

In a decompression event, the air is sucked out of your lungs. The air that
remains has a low O2 partial pressure, and so oxygen can leak from your
bloodstream into your lungs. As such the body's normal mechanisms for storing
oxygen simply don't work.

~~~
Buttons840
As I read your comment I suddenly decided to blow all the air I could from my
lungs and see how long I could go without a breath. I lasted 10 seconds.

~~~
gruez
It's probably worse than that. When you blow out all the air from your lungs,
what's left is still at atmospheric pressure. In a decompression event the
pressure drops very quickly unless you plug your nose or something. A sibling
comment has more concrete numbers
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_useful_consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_useful_consciousness)

~~~
DuskStar
When learning to scuba dive, they caution you not to _ever_ hold your breath -
not when at a stable depth, not when descending, and most certainly not when
ascending - because the pressure differential can cause serious injuries.
(This goes to the point of "if you run out of air at the bottom and need to
make an emergency ascent, hum for the entire trip up to make sure you're
breathing out slowly")

Now, you have larger pressure differentials when scuba diving - every 10m of
depth is an atmosphere of pressure - but the half atmosphere that you get from
10k vs 40k feet is probably still enough to cause some serious issues. (10k
feet is ~0.69 atm, while 40k is ~0.19)

------
johnnyfaehell
To be fair, this seems reasonable. There has to be a line that is drawn.
Having everyone wearing full body pods isn't feasible.

If you honestly feel like you need a full body pod, maybe you should seek a
different mode of transport.

~~~
jefftk
_> Having everyone wearing full body pods isn't feasible._

How is someone wearing a full body pod in a window seat (as pictured in the
article) causing problems for others?

~~~
nharada
I'm guessing it's a safety thing? Having a bunch of people in bubble suits
would make it really hard to evacuate the plane.

~~~
ragnese
Wouldn't this be a simple case of measuring the probability of needing to
evacuate the plane quickly vs. probability of catching covid-19 and dying?

Honestly, right now, for an elderly person, the covid risk is probably higher.

~~~
thinkharderdev
Theoretically you could, but in practice I don't know that we can reliably
determine either of those probabilities with any accuracy. For instance, COVID
risk is highly dependent (even for elderly people) on the presence of
comorbidities. Are you going to ask everyone on the flight for their medical
history?

~~~
ragnese
I understand, but surely someone with an actual stats background could do a
basic calculation on number of recent plane crashes vs. some estimated
probability of N people out of 100 on a plane having COVID * the overall
mortality rate, etc.

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lokedhs
The US seems to be incredibly polarised. On one hand you have people claiming
that COVID is a hoax and refuse to wear masks or anything like that. On the
other hand you see people saying they haven't left their house in 6 months and
if they do, they wear three layers of latex gloves, an N95 mask with a
surgical mask on top and refuse to touch door handles with anything but a 1
metre long stick.

There seems to be a prevalent "if you're not with us you're against us"
attitude that seeps through the entire society.

The idea that there may be a middle road somewhere seems to have been
completely lost. This is something I noticed in several different areas, and
COVID is just one of them. The most obvious example is the political system of
course.

------
ardy42
> Personal face / body tents

> Personal face / body pods

Are they talking about these things?

[https://utwpods.com/collections/bleacher-stadium-
seating](https://utwpods.com/collections/bleacher-stadium-seating)

~~~
blackearl
These things are bizarre. I can't imagine wearing one out in public since it
doesn't actually seem to be a medical device. It's more like an over
complicated umbrella/raincoat. I'm shocked this isn't an image from The Onion

~~~
fxtentacle
It was actually designed as a sit-in umbrella for soccer games. For that
purpose, it seems to make sense, despite looking a bit outlandish.

------
CodeWriter23
If someone wanta to sit on the window and take the body pod risk on
themselves, and possibly have a similarly-equipped family member or travel
partner adjacent, that’s their business IMO.

Sitting on the aisle where they may impede the escape of another passenger who
is a stranger, not acceptable. But that may even be misinformed. Obese people
on the aisle present a formidable obstacle as well.

~~~
thinkharderdev
I think the issue would be if you had a plane full of people in body pods, in
an emergency deplane scenario all of the pods become obstacles that will end
up in random places around the cabin so even if someone is in an aisle seat,
they may not be in an aisle seat still if the plane skids off the runway
during takeoff and everyone is tossed around a bit.

------
numpad0
This is interesting as not anyone can wear masks for duration of a flight.

Just couple weeks ago there was an incident in my country, where a domestic
flight had to emergency land to kick out a person on the ground of cabin
disturbances, who was also not wearing a mask.

Story goes as follows: the person refused masks for claimed medical
conditions, while pointing out that the mask policies at this point are
voluntary basis. Airline crew accepted that and the plane took off, but then
the person didn't like voices from other passengers around(?) and started
harassing crews to order them to make an apology for the person(??) to the
point the plane landed and person was forced out. Damages are estimated at
$100k ranges, flight was delayed by couple hours, and the person in question
is still standing boldly on media interviews in refusing masks, "defending
rights", and demanding apologies. In short I think the person was legitimately
bit autistic aside from being a complete jerk.

But clearly the pain of facial masks vary person to person, so be it
developmental issues or skin conditions or ear or facial shape issues the
masks could be beyond their tolerances. I wonder what will be the best course
forward...

~~~
ghthor
Don't fucking mandate wearing masks by law and tell all your citizens to grow
the fuck up about it. Wear real protection if you need to protect yourself,
don't force everyone to wear masks to create a security theater.

~~~
javagram
Masks are not a security theater, TSA is an example of security theater.

For the small minority of people who are psychologically unable to wear a mask
or have read so much online material that they have become violently against
them, they can simply use a car to drive to their destination while the vast
majority of the traveling public simply follows the rules.

------
jrochkind1
> Our Clean Commitment was launched to keep every gate area, jetbridge and
> aircraft clean

> We’ve begun using new breakthrough SurfaceWise2 spraying solution

> We require everyone to wear an approved mask or face covering to reduce the
> risk of virus transmission

> We also offer extra wipes (where available) for customers to clean the area
> around them

I think the current science is that there is very little evidence of
significant risk of transmission from surfaces. (3 of those 4 points).

Yet we are still obsessed with surface hygiene. I guess because it's something
we can do... but if we spent all the money being spent on surface cleaning on
things that actually are more likely to reduce transmission (like, say,
ventilation; or even on research to learn more), we'd reduce transmission
more.

Those things they are banning they probably have to ban for good reasons of
safety etc. But surface hygiene is no substitute.

~~~
jjk166
Keeping things clean costs pennies and even if the reduction in the odds of
transmitting covid aren't very high, it certainly helps with lots of other
diseases, and for the vast majority of us avoiding the common cold or the flu
is just as valuable as avoiding covid. A new ventilation system for a plane is
many orders of magnitude more expensive and the amount of benefit it would
provide is still questionable.

Reallocating such a measly sum to other areas is very unlikely to make a
measurable difference. Infinitesimal costs can be justified by even very minor
benefit.

~~~
Caligatio
NYC is spending $500M/year to clean rail and buses in an effort to combat
COVID ([https://www.politico.com/states/new-
york/albany/story/2020/0...](https://www.politico.com/states/new-
york/albany/story/2020/08/11/new-york-could-spend-billions-on-subway-cleaning-
to-fight-covid-19-is-it-worth-it-1307302)). It's not nearly as cheap as you
would think.

~~~
oh_sigh
Keep in mind that whatever the MTA does, you could probably do equivalently in
a sane, rational world for 1/10th the price.

------
tyingq
A front view of one of these "body tents":
[https://iknowthepilot.imgix.net/LocationImages/man-in-
body-p...](https://iknowthepilot.imgix.net/LocationImages/man-in-body-
pod-1200x675.jpg)

~~~
AlexDragusin
The real deal
[https://youtu.be/O1UjXJ26n-g?t=164](https://youtu.be/O1UjXJ26n-g?t=164)

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NicolasGorden
The title is misleading to the point of being click bait.

No one is getting banned from wearing medically approved PPE.

They are banning people who use 'body tents' (which take up way more space on
an aircraft than just your body) and people who are trying to change the air
around them (which is shared by other people, and therefore cannot be
considered Personal, per the definition of PPE)

A more appropriate title would be: Airlines Ban Personal Tents and Air-
Polluting Devises Now Popularly Marketed as Pseudoscientific Antiviral
Protection

Of course phrasing it as such would remove the news worthy element and make it
seem like the reasonable move it is.

~~~
fxtentacle
Fully agree. I flew to Asia to visit relatives a few times and I always hated
it if people spray their Eucalyptus oil into the air, because it seems to
attack my throat. Plus I'm not sure what it would help with/against?

In general, anything that potentially degrades the air quality for other
passengers and does not have any provable benefit should be prohibited. Ozone
is an obvious candidate, given that it will most likely make Covid spread
more, not less.

------
aaron695
> Advise them that these types of PPE are safety concerns, especially tents /
> pods which can slow access to critical safety procedures, including
> emergency evacuations and use of oxygen masks

Chance of crash ~0

Chance of death from disease, orders of magnitude more. Chance of death to
family not on the flight of disease, even more orders of magnitude more.

Risk to airlines being sued for a crash ~ same with or without people tripping

Risk to airlines from regulators ~ a lot

------
christkv
Literally pod-people [https://utwpods.com](https://utwpods.com)

------
threatofrain
I'm sure there's a solution that fits within the constraints of a carry-on
option.

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hartator
Such an interesting time!

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easytiger
A guy in my building was flying back to china, dressed in full airtight hazmat
suit with respirator. It's a fucking mental illness

~~~
Someone1234
That would be permissible by this policy.

As far as "mental illness," I'd prefer people go a little overboard than the
opposite. If for no other reason than I am safer near someone in an airtight
hazmat suit + respirator, whereas I am less safe near someone without PPE.

While I think the balance should be "reasonableness," they aren't hurting
anyone else or even themselves. So live and let live.

~~~
easytiger
You think people should be let on planes dressed as follows

[https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/254693229052](https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/254693229052)

~~~
TillE
It's absolutely insane to be flying during a global pandemic unless it's some
kind of life-or-death emergency.

Mandating everyone wear a full hazmat suit would be a far, far more reasonable
policy than shrugging and letting people wear mostly-useless cloth masks. This
is not a normal time and people have to stop acting like it is.

~~~
easytiger
That is not even close to being reasonable.

------
kevin_thibedeau
Are emotional support peacocks still allowed?

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fortran77
Since they allow CPAP machines to be used in-flight and these are known to
aersolize and spread viral particle far and wide, I won't feel comfortable
flying until I can wear a full-face mask with N-95 filters.

I've written a letter (I had to Fed-Ex it to get an answer) to United (my
usual airline) and they tell me they have to allow CPAP in flight "because of
ADA."

I hope they don't restrict the use of full-face masks.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7298691/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7298691/)

~~~
Someone1234
> I won't feel comfortable flying until I can wear a full-face mask with N-95
> filters.

Which is permitted by every airline including United and AA. Where did you get
the impression that isn't the case?

~~~
zobzu
I wouldnt be surprised if it gets banned. In case of cabin decompression the
full face masks can be quite hard to remove and you may actually die.

Now, that's very unlikely to happen, but apparently that's more likely than
catching COVID or something. (Really, it's just insurance stuff I assume)

------
ivanstame
Until when you are going to be stupid and believe this made up situation, it's
OK guys, it's not our first time to have a pandemic, why make it such a fuss
when it's not, you are acting foolish with this COVID shit...? 1 million
deaths by corona, and that is questionable, but because of this made up
situation many more millions will suffer and die because you guys decided you
are fucking scared and submit like little bitches to the governments... your
freedom is taken from you like candy from kids...it's sad to watch this.

~~~
andrewnicolalde
How's the weather in St. Petersburg?

~~~
ivanstame
here is one little bitch :D

~~~
dang
Would you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN?
You've been doing it a lot, unfortunately, and it's not the intended use of
the site.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

