
Foxconn’s buildings in Wisconsin are still empty, one year later - techslave
https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/12/21217060/foxconn-wisconsin-innovation-centers-empty-buildings
======
supernova87a
There's an NPR podcast (I will try to recall a link) on how the local town /
county government was willingly duped into being the gullible country folk who
would agree to give Foxconn such huge subsidies for the promise of jobs. And
how some more cautious citizens really fought against the secrecy being
applied to the whole deal by the town council.

Sometimes you have to have the self-awareness to ask yourself, here I am, a
country-simple and inexperienced elected official, who's being presented with
a huge fantasy of a deal (well beyond my order of magnitude experience), and
being asked to keep this secret from the press and constituents.

Is it likely that I'm such a good negotiator and master of finances and state
incentives and my town is so special, that the huge company I'm dealing with
(with dozens of analysts) is asking me to keep it secret because they're
afraid of how they're getting screwed? Or maybe the other way around?

Those town council members and mayor got taken for the ride of their lives by
their gullibility and desire for national politicians to chalk up a headline,
which of course, never materialized.

Edit: oh, I see someone has just posted the Reply- all podcast link to that
story, thanks!

~~~
smt88
> _Sometimes you have to have the self-awareness to ask yourself, here I am, a
> country-simple and inexperienced elected official_

No one thinks of themselves as "country-simple". They certainly don't throw
hope for their community out the window because they're too "country-simple"
to understand that it's a lie.

Sometimes you have to have the self-awareness to ask yourself, here I am, an
educated tech enthusiast, who's being presented with a decision and self-
delusion I can't empathize with. Is it likely that my narrow experience can be
applied in judgment of all other people? Or maybe I have never known the
desperation of living in a dying region?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _No one thinks of themselves as "country-simple"_

Of course not. But this is a story of a small town government negotiating with
a multibillion-dollar company. They kept negotiations secret. They didn’t seem
to hire best-in-class bankers nor lawyers.

I understand the desperation. But stupid doesn’t become less stupid because it
was dumb for the right reasons. Best case, they deluded themselves into
believing they found a golden goose. That’s incompetent.

~~~
smt88
> _But stupid doesn’t become less stupid because it was dumb for the right
> reasons._

I think you misunderstood my post.

I wasn't saying that what they did _wasn 't_ stupid. It was. The post I was
replying to implied the following in a condescending way:

1) the poster is not "simple" enough to be conned by a massive corporation

2) all people living in rural areas are "simple"

3) all people living in rural areas should _know_ that they are simple and
never aspire to anything that we big-city people do because it is beyond their
cognitive abilities

4) doing something that will probably fail (trusting Foxconn, in this case) is
never a rational decision

Regarding #4, it's easy to say that Foxconn is 100% untrustworthy, but we all
know that mostly in hindsight. Even if they had a 1% chance of coming through,
a region with a dying economy might actually be rational to throw away an
enormous amount of money. If it's their only hope, it would be rational to
throw away _all_ of their money.

~~~
jlaurend
Just to jump in here to add some additional comments:

* Mount Pleasant WI is not rural (city-data.com says 95% urban). It lies on I94 just 1hr 15min from Chicago and 30min from Milwaukee. * I doubt Mount Pleasant WI is dying.

If I remember, the deal was pretty opaque and many details were murky. I find
it more likely the local officials were incentivized somehow as opposed to
sheer incompetence.

Additionally, it should be noted that the WI governor (Scott Walker) who
orchestrated this deal lost his re-election bid shortly after this. While
there was always uncertainty about Foxconn actually following through, the
lack of Walker (and thus probably Trump) basically sealed the deal.

~~~
smt88
> _Mount Pleasant WI is not rural_

I think you're right. I was responding to someone saying they are "country"
people.

> _I doubt Mount Pleasant WI is dying._

Milwaukee's metro area (which includes Mount Pleasant and Racine, the places
most closely tied to Foxconn's scam) has seen a massive decline in
manufacturing:

> _" The Great Recession hit Milwaukee’s manufacturing industry especially
> hard, and the city continues to have discomfiting employment
> statistics..."[1]._

Broad economic numbers aren't great for Racine County as far as I can tell.
They're worse than the US overall. Even if they were great, we know from
examples across the US that declining blue-collar jobs may be especially
painful for the non-urban electorate -- people who influence the local
officials who believe the wishful nonsense Foxconn peddles.

> _" 'This area desperately needs the investment. There's nothing here
> anymore,' said Tom Johnston, a 54-year-old veteran of [Racine's] once-
> vaunted manufacturing sector."_[2]

1\. [https://www.badgerinstitute.org/Reports/2013/A-Fresh-Take-
on...](https://www.badgerinstitute.org/Reports/2013/A-Fresh-Take-on-an-Old-
Reliable-Milwaukee-and-Manufacturing-.htm)

2\. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/as-the-economy-
teete...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/as-the-economy-teeters-
trumps-eighth-wonder-of-the-world-wobbles-with-
it/2019/09/28/478baca2-da59-11e9-a688-303693fb4b0b_story.html)

~~~
jlaurend
Oh, I agree with your post and appreciate you adding real substance to this
thread. I'd say the area's in "decline" as opposed to "dying" but that may be
splitting hairs. I do think "dying" implies that there's no hope for revival.
Like it's some remote coal town that lives or dies by that single industry.
Sure yeah, the manufacturing industry is not doing well here and Racine has
fared particularly poorly. That made Mount Pleasant vulnerable to Foxconn but
is only one part of the story. There's a lot of political nuance when it comes
to Wisconsin and Milwaukee. This deal wasn't getting done without the state
government backing it no matter how naive or desperate one municipality was.
My point is that it's far more likely corruption or even just normal political
incentives drove this deal as opposed to stupidity.

------
dpau
Not surprising. A great episode about this issue is on Reply All, worth
listening to even now:

#132 Negative Mount Pleasant DECEMBER 6, 2018 A small town in Wisconsin
becomes the site of a completely unprecedented experiment.
[https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-
all/wbhjwd](https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/wbhjwd)

~~~
nikkwong
Wow. This story was mind blowing. I don't understand how a small town can
borrow against a state's future tax earnings? Why are Wisconsin's taxpayers on
the hook for the stupid mistakes of these council members? Also the story
doesn't make this clear. How are the incentive payments made to Foxconn? I'm
certain that it's not just a direct transfer of tax dollars from the
city/state to Foxconn (?).

~~~
CydeWeys
The statewide officials were in on it too. Blame Scott Walker first and
foremost, certainly more than any one individual at the town level.

~~~
nikkwong
I can understand the naivete of Americans on the receiving end of this, like
Walker or the president of the town for just being lured in by the idea
"investment => profit". Foxconn however is obviously much more sophisticated
and the story alludes to how manufacturing is cheaper in Asia; so the premise
of why they'd invest in a plant here doesn't make much sense. Although it
flirts with answering this question I still don't have a clear answer. It
sounds like they received tax incentives, which, maybe were incentive enough
for production demand that they at some point may have? It just doesn't make
sense to me if they weren't planning on actually hiring 13,000 workers, what's
the incentive? Tax breaks do you no good if you generate no revenue.

------
grafs50
I lived in Mount Pleasant, WI from 2005 to 2015, a few miles away from the
Foxconn factory. Some of these comments are honestly extremely disappointing.

* Mount Pleasant is not some backwards county where people are "country-simple" (?), most people live in urban/sububurban areas with farmland quickly being eaten up for new construction. Milwaukee is 30 minutes away. Chicago is just over an hour.

* The economy of Mount Pleasant is not dying. Where you got that from is beyound me.

------
frankbreetz
I always thought it was weird that Wisconsin was a swing state. They seem like
they would always be red, tons or manufacturing and farms, not a lot of big
cities. But, it seems like Wisconsin Republicans are always making the
national news for corruption, the Foxconn plant, allowing a vote in the middle
of a pandemic for a minor Republican gain, and when Scott Walker lost his
governor seat he removed a lot of power from the governor so, the Democrat
coming in couldn't do as much. I know there are good and bad people on both
sides, but Wisconsin Republicans have some work to do.

~~~
VintageCool
Wisconsin is one of the most segregated and polarized states in the country.
It's split between pure blue Milwaukee and it's pure red suburbs (the "WOW"
counties).

[https://archive.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/democratic-r...](https://archive.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/democratic-
republican-voters-worlds-apart-in-divided-
wisconsin-b99249564z1-255883361.html)

~~~
bilbo0s
It's also one of the more corrupt states. From Scott Walker level public
theft, to a DA that actually exchanged light charges on drug gangs for charity
donations. (Of course, all of the "donations" had to go to "charities" run by
his friends in his municipality. That way he could make sure the money went to
help "the children".)

What can I say? Wisconsin is crazy bad. But it's home for me.

------
hn_throwaway_99
This is good reporting. I think it's pretty obvious the sole (ok, maybe not
sole, but certainly 90%+ purpose) of these "innovation centers" was political
show, on both Foxconn's and the US politicians' side.

------
RantyDave
"Foxconn has announced a giant glass dome that will house a data center"

I'm hard pressed to think of a worse place to put a data centre than under a
glass dome. The moon, perhaps?

~~~
Taek
The moon would be very bad. No atmosphere = no heat dissipation.

For thermal reasons alone, computing is a massive challenge in space.

~~~
ccmcarey
you have a planet you could vent heat into?

~~~
rsynnott
Venting heat _into the ground_ is not even remotely an efficient process,
unless you have no other option.

~~~
titanomachy
Not on earth, where the ground is relatively warm... but lunar subsurface
temperatures are -20 or -30°C. You could sink heat into that pretty fast.

~~~
Taek
They are -20C until you drop a bunch of heat into them. Air works well because
it's a fluid. And even as a fluid it's completely ineffective at cooling a
cpu. You need to pair that fluid with a heatsink that creates massive surface
area and a powered fan that is blowing in a steady stream of cool air to
replace the air that has heated up.

Even liquid cooling setups on earth eventually blow their heat into the
atmosphere as the primary means of keeping the liquid cool.

~~~
defterGoose
Lots of types of rock have better thermal conductivity than water or air. The
subsurface of the moon is vast and would dissipate the heat far too quickly
for an appreciable temperature change.

~~~
Paradigma11
But the subsurface of the moon is somewhat less mobile than air or water in
cooling systems.

------
asdff
The verge can go ahead and write next years article about this, because at
this rate, these will probably remain on the back burner.

------
johnohara
Aside from the politics, which really can't be left aside, I was under the
impression the principal reason Mt. Pleasant was selected was due to its
unfettered access to fresh water in the form of Lake Michigan. And also it's
proximity to The Brat Stop on I-94.

Not necessarily in that order.

~~~
pureliquidhw
Not sure why you were down-voted. Access to water with no restrictions in a
location dead center between Milwaukee and Chicago was the obvious play here.
There was never an honest attempt to make a new silicon valley. They got land
that in 20 years will be worth 10+x what the Union Grove taxpayers paid for it
with reduced tax obligations. I'm sure the 100's of other businesses in that
corridor would love similar tax breaks to what Uline, Amazon, and Foxconn have
gotten.

Also, Brat Stop is right there... for better or worse.

~~~
johnohara
Me either. Thanks.

To your point tho', Uline, Amazon, et.al. know the entire geographic location
hits a major distribution sweet spot. There are many built-in advantages other
than those offered by state and local government.

Plus, many residents living between Milwaukee and the Illinois state line
remember the huge impact American Motors had on family, friends, and
neighbors. AMC, then Chrysler, workers had stand-on-your-feet jobs with good
pay, good benefits, and good retirement.

It was not an insignificant event when that plant closed 32 years ago.

Every city council from Kenosha to Milwaukee knows the meaning of 13,000
manufacturing jobs firsthand.

------
drawkbox
Chinese style factories in the US are not going to work. See _American
Factory_ on Netflix.

Factory work should be safe and no more than 8 hours as well established,
maybe even less so there can be more jobs.

If anything Chinese style management of production needs to care for workers
more, even if products cost more.

Innovations can be made other ways than making people into slaves that never
see their family, live a life and have a quality of life at work and time
away.

Happier people are more productive workers and need less time to produce the
same as crunched, overworked workers. Everyone in game development or
engineering knows this. Just pressing the gas does not lead to the best
results, an ebb and flow and research and development of mentally prepared,
rested workers is key.

------
randyrand
Was foxconn given tax breaks only? Or did they also spend significant tax
dollars?

Its always odd to me when subsidies are advertised as a cost, i.e. lost tax
revenue. That would mean not having Foxconn come to Wisconsin at all is also a
cost, i.e. lost tax revenue. And that Foxconn also cost adjacent states a ton
by not moving to them either. That seems odd to phrase it that way. Subsidies
are not a cost.

When I buy something at Target for 50% off, did I just cost them money?
Doubtful. They're still making money. And its in Wisconsin's interest to make
some money, rather than nothing.

~~~
pengaru
Residents were displaced to build the facilities. People lost their homes and
their lives were significantly disrupted, that's a cost it's difficult to put
a dollar amount on.

~~~
jjeaff
I remember one of the first cases in my business law class was about immenent
domain and how it was found that the government has no obligation to follow
through with their reasoning for taking your land.

Pretty messed up.

~~~
zerocrates
Kelo v. New London is an (in)famous Supreme Court case holding that "public
use" for eminent domain can include just handing the property over to private
interests, on the theory that doing so could produce economic development.

The actual New London development fell through anyway and the area is just
vacant. A large Pfizer presence nearby was a major reason behind the plan in
the first place; in the wake of mergers and with the tax breaks that lured
them there in the first place expiring, Pfizer pulled up stakes.

------
m0zg
I've seen comments wrt this situation that there weren't any actual subsidies
given to Foxconn. That was conditioned upon the plants actually being
operational, and making stuff, which they, so far, have not.

If true (which I bet it is - that's how I'd structure a deal like that), this
would mean those country folks in Wisconsin are not as stupid as liberal media
wants you to believe.

------
JohnJamesRambo
Foxconn officials seem to be taking the Aristotelian view that nature abhors a
vacuum and consider the fact that there is air in the buildings as good enough
to be classified as "not empty."

------
dvduval
If it appears there is enough space there for our Congress to sit together
with social distancing.

------
cobookman
It’s events like these that make me believe a large government will always
become corrupt.

with smaller governments, ppl will focus their corruption on more lucrative
organizations.

And hopefully free market capitalism in such a system would be a check on the
corruption.

~~~
farazbabar
While there may be some naivety in this comment, I think it may be a better
idea to address the issue or educate the folks that may not consider perils of
unchecked capitalism to be a significant risk instead of just downvoting them.

------
polote
I don't understand the point of the article, they are just saying that the
building is empty and they are lying about it right ? But why should anyone
cares ?

~~~
frankbreetz
>>As part of the agreement, Foxconn was set to receive subsidies ranging from
$3 billion to $4.8 billion (paid in increments if Foxconn met certain
targets), which would be by far the largest subsidy ever given to a foreign
firm in U.S. history.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn%27s_Wisconsin_plant](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn%27s_Wisconsin_plant)

Why should Americans cares how there tax dollars are spent, right?

~~~
champagneben
>if Foxconn met certain targets

Have they been met? Has it been a net negative from the taxpayers' standpoint?

~~~
briffle
Not every tax credit had the targets set. The environmental laws changed for
the site are vague enough that anything they decide to do there is okay, and
many people lost their homes due to condemnation to clear the land, and roads
for the plant. (Plus all the money already spent to upgrade roads, freeway
off-ramps, power, and utilities in a very rural area.

