
Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop - makaronin
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/
======
vanderZwan
This looks like a timely moment to bring up Cory Doctorow's _The coming war on
general computation_ talk:

> _So today we have marketing departments who say things like "we don't need
> computers, we need... appliances. Make me a computer that doesn't run every
> program, just a program that does this specialized task, like streaming
> audio, or routing packets, or playing Xbox games, and make sure it doesn't
> run programs that I haven't authorized that might undermine our profits".
> And on the surface, this seems like a reasonable idea -- just a program that
> does one specialized task -- after all, we can put an electric motor in a
> blender, and we can install a motor in a dishwasher, and we don't worry if
> it's still possible to run a dishwashing program in a blender. But that's
> not what we do when we turn a computer into an appliance. We're not making a
> computer that runs only the "appliance" app; we're making a computer that
> can run every program, but which uses some combination of rootkits, spyware,
> and code-signing to prevent the user from knowing which processes are
> running, from installing her own software, and from terminating processes
> that she doesn't want. In other words, an appliance is not a stripped-down
> computer -- it is a fully functional computer with spyware on it out of the
> box._

Video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg)

Transcript:
[https://github.com/jwise/28c3-doctorow/blob/master/transcrip...](https://github.com/jwise/28c3-doctorow/blob/master/transcript.md)

~~~
grkvlt
I don't buy this. For example, if I rent an apartment, but there is a locked
cupboard in it where the landlord stores a bunch of tools and other bits and
pieces, I don't complain to AirBnB that I didn't get the full use of the
property, and start a campaign suggesting they are infringing my rights by not
letting me access the landlord's cupboard?

If I buy a device that is advertised to do X, and this is accomplished by
running a program to do X on a locked-down general purpose computer, then it
is (assuming no issues with program X) fit for purpose by any definition. If I
wanted a general purpose computer, I would purchase one. The fact of the
implementation detail being a general purpose computer is irrelevant, it
doesn't impair my ability to do X if I cannot remove X and install Y, in fact
it _improves_ the ability to do X, by preventing the possibility of all sorts
of misconfigurations and installation incompatibilities.

I admit that it's hard to find real-world analogies, and the landlord-cupboard
above is not a perfect fit, but I still have no problem with saving money by
purchasing a device that does one thing, and one thing only. I have no
expectation that it be hackable or extensible, unless it is advertised as
such.

~~~
vanderZwan
I think you want to read the full transcript or listen to the whole talk
instead of just respond to the one paragraph I highlighted. The context is
quite important.

------
paulintrognon
The worst part is the reaction from Lenovo in my opinion. They just locked the
thread reporting the issue on their forum, not saying anything about the
problem itself but instead threatened the community to turn the pre-approval
option on. This really makes me angry and makes me want to boycott their
products. I really hope this issue will spread so that Lenovo learn that they
made a bad move on this one.

It also made me realize how important it is to have a community on which one
can rely to spread problems like this one. Several people on their own can't
do much against big companies, but a big tech commnity can.

~~~
buro9
> It also made me realize how important it is to have a community on which one
> can rely to spread problems like this one. Several people on their own can't
> do much against big companies, but a big tech commnity can.

I never think that a support forum should be owned by the company.

There is a clear conflict of interest. The company does not want you calling
them out on product flaws or their behaviour, on a site that they own and that
reflects on their brand and products.

It's a shame that fora frequently are not financially viable, as they do need
to exist to provide a centralised place for consumers to gather, share
problems, diagnose and solve them.

Companies shouldn't run their support forums. Instead, companies should offer
a better level of support by default.

~~~
Koshkin
> _fora_

Off-topic, but for future reference:

fora = forums, viri = viruses, indices = indexes, formulae = formulas,

etc.

~~~
hsitz
Meaning is the same for 'fora' and 'forums', but both are fine and 'forums' is
in fact more commonly used: [http://grammarist.com/usage/fora-
forums/](http://grammarist.com/usage/fora-forums/)

I suspect same is true for viri/viruses and formulae/formulas but I'm not even
worried enough about to check. Me saying 'viri' or 'formulae' would be me
being a person I don't want to be.

~~~
jakub_h
It would make you an ignoramus in all things Latin, I assume? Given that
"viri" means "(a plurality of) human males"...

~~~
Koshkin
You are, of course, correct - unlike those people who write 'viri' or, even
more often, 'virii' instead of the correct Latin 'vira' \- which, as it
happens, is not part of common English use.

------
xg15
The other HN thread suggests this not actually a dark conspiracy by Microsoft
but simply a case of missing linux drivers for the storage devices.

This sounds believable to me. But I'll put my tinfoil hat on just for fun and
pretend it _was_ an intentional move. Could this make sense as a new twist on
the old strategy, making it "Embrace, Extinguish, Extend"? With the WSL, they
made it theoretically possible to run Linux software on Windows. With that in
place, locking existing users out of Linux might cause a lot less negative
backlash as the users can still continue to use their old programs - except
under the supervision of Windows. If this catches on, it could actually allow
Microsoft to grab some if the more consumer-oriented parts of the Linux
ecosystem.

~~~
RandomOpinion
>locking existing users out of Linux

A serious question: What gives Linux users the right to expect that Linux will
run on any given PC / laptop?

Think about it. These PCs/laptops are designed to adhere to Microsoft's
Windows PC hardware standards doc (which was never, ever an open standard)
and, with few exceptions, only tested against various versions of Windows.
Linux users are failing to receive a feature that they were never promised in
the first place so it's unclear that they have any valid cause for complaint.

Perhaps Linux, BSD, etc. users should be creating their own PC standards doc
and asking OEMs to adhere to it instead?

~~~
carapace
"Universal" machine.

I expect any computer I own to run anything I put on it.

Locking out software is like a car maker trying to control what brand of gas
you put in your car.

~~~
criddell
Does that include your cable company DVR, your PS4, your doorbell, your wifi-
enabled refrigerator, your thermostat, and the 50 other devices in your home
that contain (or are) computers?

~~~
fl0wenol
Personal computers are perceived as the last vestige of this sort of freedom
in a consumer product, hence the outrage.

None of those other examples are sold with the intention of the user changing
the system in a way unexpected by the vendor.

PCs are supposed to be open-ended, and for this you typically pay more for the
hardware capability than a product which serves as a gateway into a walled-
garden ecosystem (phones, gaming consoles, etc.)

~~~
criddell
I guess Lenovo should make it clear if the computer is locked or not and maybe
offer an upgrade option to get it unlocked.

------
voltagex_
Site is down.

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fossbos...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fossboss.com/2016/09/21/windows-10-signature-
edition-blocks-installing-linux/&num=1&safe=active&strip=1&vwsrc=0)

The article looks dangerously uninformed, from a brief skim.

It's based on
[https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_micro...](https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/?st=itckdfrp&sh=b67cac2d)

I can't find any info on what SSD the Lenovo Yoga uses but if it's anything
like the NVMe drive in my Dell XPS, it's just the way the card is set up.

Depending on which kernel your installer is using it won't see the NVMe drive
as it simply has no drivers for it.

~~~
dTal
I dunno, this looks like a smoking gun: [http://i1.wp.com/fossboss.com/wp-
content/uploads/2016/09/B7g...](http://i1.wp.com/fossboss.com/wp-
content/uploads/2016/09/B7gMpFL.png)

~~~
voltagex_
I don't think being able to change the drive to AHCI mode would fix the
problem. The BIOS (actually UEFI) "locking" and storage driver are two
separate issues. I mean, hell, if someone wants to send me one of these
laptops I'll test it and do a full writeup.

Of course Reddit has gone off without anyone actually confirming what the
issue is. Microsoft would be smart to come out with a statement on this if it
picks up any steam.

~~~
Hydraulix989
"I don't think being able to change the drive to AHCI mode would fix the
problem."

One user Bownairo confirmed that changing the drive to AHCI mode did fix the
problem by allowing the drive to be recognized in Linux, after manually
flashing a modded BIOS by soldering chip programming hardware:

[https://imgur.com/a/ox4Ey](https://imgur.com/a/ox4Ey)

~~~
voltagex_
Props to that guy going above and beyond.

I wonder what it'll take to get Linux to see the drive in RAID mode.

~~~
Hydraulix989
New kernel drivers from Intel, most likely.

djpohly and the BIOS hackers deserve some credit too for their REing:

[https://www.bios-mods.com/forum/Thread-Request-Lenovo-
Yoga-9...](https://www.bios-mods.com/forum/Thread-Request-Lenovo-
Yoga-900-BIOS-Unlock-AHCI-enable-attached-BIOS-fd)

Conditional flag locking users out of the Advanced settings page (with the
RAID settings) of the BIOS, as shown in disassembled code:

[https://lnv.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-
id/76843...](https://lnv.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-
id/76843i7CD81FDBF9327A32/image-size/large?v=v2&px=999)

------
mjg59
This is horribly misleading -
[http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/44694.html](http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/44694.html)
has some more details. But the short version is that Lenovo are force-enabling
a feature that ensures they get better power management, and which is
unsupported under Linux because Intel have never submitted code. If Intel ever
do so (or if someone else writes it), Linux will just work.

~~~
sounds
It's not horribly misleading, Matt. If you view it from the perspective of the
average Linux user, I think you'd agree that:

1\. Lenovo is usually one of the first choices for a Linux laptop.

2\. Lenovo obviously has made the call here to ignore the Linux community on
their forums.

3\. Lenovo has actually stated "This system has a Signature Edition of Windows
10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft." \--
whatever that means.

4\. Win10 dropped the requirement that Secure Boot can be disabled. This has
already been filed as a complaint to the EC:

    
    
      I remember when in 2012 secure boot was announced for the new
      Windows 8. I am from Spain, and at that time a lawyer (Jose
      Maria Lancho[1]) that was the president of a Spanish LUG
      (Hispalinux) create a official complain to the European
      Commission about the Windows 8 certification program in
      relation with the requirements of Secure Boot.
    
      At that time the certification program describe that one of
      the requirement was to have an option to disable SB via UEFI,
      but only for desktops and laptops, but not for tables. Now
      this option is not anymore required for the Windows 10
      certification program. That point was one of the argument
      that we exposed in the complain.
    
      Is very sad to see that the circle is closing as we
      predicted in the complain, and with this new Signature
      Edition thing a new movement in this direction. And so far,
      the European Commission is not doing anything in that
      regard, and less and less hackers, lawyers, and groups are
      fighting against this kind of movement.
    

[https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_micro...](https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/d7vs4qc)

------
tzs
It sounds like Lenovo's BIOS is using a RAID mode with the internal SSD that
Linux does not understand. Lenovo apparently provides a driver for this RAID
mode for Windows 10. If you want to install something else (Linux, Windows 8)
you are out of luck until someone produces a driver for that operating system.

~~~
gmazza
If this [1] Lenovo employee's answer is a real deal, and this was in fact
sanctioned by MS, I wonder if their actual goal was to prevent people from
installing Windows 8/7/whatever. MS did go on record by saying they are
willing to block people from installing old versions on new hardware. [2]

[1] [http://imgur.com/a/niewu](http://imgur.com/a/niewu)

[2] [http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/16/10780876/microsoft-
windows...](http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/16/10780876/microsoft-windows-
support-policy-new-processors-skylake)

~~~
vertex-four
Given the quality of answers to questions that I'm used to by computer
manufacturer "product experts" online... it's really unlikely that that's
actually the case.

------
ensiferum
I have been a long time ThinkPad user and recently purchased my latest
ThinkPad T460p. Sadly it has some issues, the latest NVidia drivers don't work
on the device but I'm forced to use the 1 year old driver that Lenovo provides
in their packages. Figuring this out took my several days of trouble shooting
(only dx9 was affected).

Also the system fan is constantly running. I went to their support site and
the online support is not available in my country and the "contact support"
system doesn't/didn't work (opened some empty box in the website). Super
frustrating.

As much I hate to admit it, the ThinkPad is no longer what it was back in the
IBM era.

Combined with stories about vendor lock in. I'm saddened to say that this
shall be the last ThinkPad/Lenovo that I'm purchasing.

~~~
vegabook
Honestly Dell does Ubuntu pre-installed and therefore its XPS and Precision
models never give this kind of bullshit uphill, even if you don't buy the
Ubuntu version. It's now my go-to vendor, simply because I consider any vendor
which does not do full testing on Linux, and sells any hardware that doesn't
fully support it, as suspect and not worth bothering with. I'm sad to see that
Lenovo is now in that camp.

~~~
ensiferum
Just wondering, does Dell support non-US keyboard layouts? I only saw that XPS
available on some Dell-US site..

~~~
vegabook
I'm running an ISO keyboard on a Dell Precision as we "speak". Recall you
don't _have to_ buy the Ubuntu pre-installed version because it's the same
hardware. I retro-installed mine on a UK-keyboard Windows Precision M3800 (now
superseded by the 5510). And it works perfectly. If I were to buy one now I'd
just go for the 13-XPS as the infinity display is big enough, although a fully
kitted out Precision 5510 with Xeon, 32GB RAM and Nvidia quadro is mighty
tempting but we're talking 3000 USD (2150 GBP) with 1TB SSD.

------
zx2c4
The community's reaction seems absurd to me.

For whatever reason, the device only exposes some sort of RAID controller to
the OS, and for whatever reason, there's no working option for exposing a more
standard AHCI interface instead. The problem is that Linux doesn't (yet) have
a driver for that RAID controller.

Okay, great. Linux doesn't yet support particular piece of hardware. News at
11.

Just like usual, if you want odd hardware to work on Linux, you'll have to
write some drivers. That's just how it is. This is nothing new or scandalous.
The reasons why Lenovo doesn't support AHCI don't matter. They don't, so now
somebody must write a driver for what they do support. Once that happens,
nobody will complain anymore. It's that simple. Nothing is being locked with
Secure Boot; nothing is being locked with crypto; there is no DRM at play. If
you want hardware support, write a driver.

As for all the Lenovo-bashing going on here... My personal experience with my
new Thinkpad P50 has been overwhelmingly positive. It's working on Gentoo
Linux entirely:
[https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Lenovo_ThinkPad_P50](https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Lenovo_ThinkPad_P50)

~~~
arca_vorago
It seems absurd because you complete glossed over the most important part: "
and for whatever reason, there's no working option for exposing a more
standard AHCI interface instead."

This isn't linux's fault for not supporting some non-standard raid driver,
this is lenovos fault for not allowing users to change the bios settings to
non-raid.

Also, just because you are been using a Thinkpad sucessfully (which is largely
been immune from the issues we are talking about compared to the rest of
lenovo line), to use that to dismiss the very real issues regarding lenovo's
recent moves is disingenuous _at best_.

~~~
zx2c4
> This isn't linux's fault for not supporting some non-standard raid driver, >
> this is lenovos fault for not allowing users to change the bios settings to
> non-raid.

Lenovo made a computer that exposes hardware to the OS for which Linux does
not yet have drivers. They could have exposed a more standard interface, but
they didn't. I guess this is their fault, okay. But again, what's the big
deal? What's next? You'll be upset when Synaptics releases a new touchpad with
a different protocol, for which Linux doesn't yet have a driver? You'll scream
and complain, "they could have supported the other protocol! they could have
unlocked it! it was just a few bits inside the internal SPI flash!" Okay. But
they didn't. Now write a driver if you want it to work.

I'd be upset if they used some kind of crypto secure boot situation to lock
down the device. This seems very far from that, however.

> Also, just because you are been using a Thinkpad sucessfully > (which is
> largely been immune from the issues we are talking > about compared to the
> rest of lenovo line), to use that to > dismiss the very real issues
> regarding lenovo's recent moves > is disingenuous at best.

I didn't mean to dismiss anything except for some comments I've seen in which
people said Thinkpads are awful on Linux. Thought I'd chime in to offer a
differing experience.

~~~
programmer_man
Yes, Thinkpads have traditionally had the best linux hardware support of all
laptops, ever since there were x86 laptops (the easiest installs were
thinkpads, and toshiba, early on).

Now, this piece of hardware removes support for the standard way to access the
hard drive. Why did they do that? Hardware engineer couldn't fix a glitch in a
new chipset in time to fix the issue in time to ship? Exceedingly unlikely.
You only change those chips when you have to, because of cost or design
constraints, and Lenovo is shipping other, similar hardware that does work
with standard storage drivers.

Someone (one person!) managed to flash the BIOS to add AHCI support, but
certainly I don't need to point out that this level of tinkering is equivalent
to a crypto secure boot situation for well over 99% of laptop-buyers. That is,
they would not be able to defeat either.

Now, a large portion of those buyers are not even aware of linux, so it's very
easy for them not to care. Some people take umbrage to the argument-from-not-
caring (I've got mine! My video plays fine! etc.), not because you have shown
that their position is wrong, but because it seems to them that you are
arguing that you understand that they are screwed, you are not, and "too bad
for you".

~~~
WallowC_33
Interestingly, despite Thinkpads being the best at running Linux over the
years, they never officially supported it. At some point they began cracking
down on it.

At last job, we had to wipe machines back to the version of Windows that came
with them in order to get Lenovo to honor the NBD support we paid for, even
when it was obviously not a software glitch (displays dying or DVD drives not
reading discs in any OS). We kept a couple spare hard drives around with
vanilla Windows installs for this reason.

We were pretty excited when Dell started shipping their Developer models. Told
Lenovo to pound sand when it came time to refresh.

------
pmontra
Somebody managed to circumvent the problem on a Yoga 900 by flashing a new
BIOS which allowed access to extra configurations. Some soldering required.
The details start at [https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-
Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK...](https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-
Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-
missing/m-p/3434304#M8266) Check the link to imgur in that post. Not for the
faint of heart. There are other posts with extra details from the same author
in the next pages of the forum.

------
alphadevx
Get a Developer Edition XPS 13 from Dell instead, comes with Linux pre-
installed. I have one and they are awesome, if manufacturers support Linux
they get my $.

~~~
easytiger
I bought a Lenovo X1 Carbon (most recent gen) and really regret it for a great
many reasons. Wish I had gone for the XPS. Actually what swayed me was the
very slightly larger screen.

~~~
TheWindUpPirate
Mind sharing what your biggest issue with the X1 Carbon is?

(In the market for a new laptop, and the X1 Carbon is/was on the list.)

~~~
cdubzzz
As another anecdote, I have purchased six X1 Carbons for staff in the past
year or so and they have been great. The staff all travel a lot and they
appreciate how light weight it is. The only machine-specific support I have
had to provide so far was the SMM BIOS vuln. updates.

Despite that, I am making new purchases with Dell mostly because of price and
service. Check out the Latitude E7470 in comparison to the X1.

------
amluto
Supposedly Intel's NVMe variant of Rapid Storage Technology is currently
unsupported on Linux. I find this puzzling because conventional RST doesn't
really do anything that matters to the OS other than changing the AHCI
controller's id, so Linux "support" is trivial. But conventional RST relies on
the PCIe target being on-board and, with NVMe, the target is the SSD itself,
so I don't fully understand what the newer NVMe does.

My laptop won't even POST with RST on, so I can't meaningfully experiment.

------
0x0
So they did lie when they said "Microsoft Loves Linux".
[https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/windowsserver/2015/05/06...](https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/windowsserver/2015/05/06/microsoft-
loves-linux/)

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

~~~
coldtea
> _So they did lie when they said "Microsoft Loves Linux"._

No, the title and "secret agreement" theory is just BS.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor)

> _Meet the new boss, same as the old boss._

MS hasn't been the boss of anyone much ever since 2005 or so...

[http://www.paulgraham.com/microsoft.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/microsoft.html)

[http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html)

~~~
rndgermandude
Then why did a Lenovo employee say there is an agreement?
[http://imgur.com/a/niewu](http://imgur.com/a/niewu)

~~~
akx
They might be misguided. Until there's an official announcement one way or
another, I wouldn't pay too much attention to some random Lenovo customer
service guy.

~~~
Sylos
Right, but there isn't going to be an official announcement, unless a hundred
thousand people jump to premature conclusions and bring out their pitchforks.
I agree that it's not terribly smart to draw a conclusion at this point in
time, but it's potentially more malicious, if we don't.

~~~
sevensor
Regardless of whether such an agreement exists, and regardless of whether it's
a secret if it does exist, I still have my pitchfork out. Lenovo had already
lost my good will for their various other shenanigans over the last couple of
years, but locking down the machine in a way that makes it impossible to
install an alternative OS has decisively lost them my business.

------
shmerl
_> Lenovo for example confirmed that they singed an agreement with Microsoft
for this._

If true, it's illegal product tying, and those who signed such "agreement" are
violating antitrust law. Someone should sue them until they stop doing this.
Lenovo are infamous for refusing to refund Windows tax until brought to court,
but this is a new low for them.

~~~
pjmlp
And they will lose.

[http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/09/sony-wins-pre-
ins...](http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/09/sony-wins-pre-installed-
software-windows-battle-cjeu/)

~~~
JorgeGT
It is a different situation, IMHO. The guy purchased a Sony laptop with a
Windows license, and pretended that by refusing the EULA he was entitled to
getting the cost of the Windows license refunded. Sony refused, offering
instead that he returned the laptop for a full refund. The guy refused and
filled the lawsuit.

------
Aissen
This is probably the standard "firmware is sending different data to different
OSes", which has existed since forever. Or maybe it's just a shitty firmware
bug or even a kernel bug.

However, I'm glad this is making this type of fuss. It means bad PR for Lenovo
if they don't do any Linux QA (as they mostly never did). Good.

------
dTal
This was so predictable. And of course, the FSF called it:
[https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-
boot](https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot)

~~~
voltagex_
Has anyone _actually_ confirmed this is anything but missing drivers in 3.2.x
kernel versions?

~~~
gmazza
Have a look lenovo forums [1] (also linked prominently from original article),
where OP has following to say:

    
    
      I am attempting to install ubuntu 16.04 on my yoga 900.
      The bios can see the 512 gb samsung hard drive and so can Windows.
    
      The ubuntu installer can not see it at all. 
    

...and first person to reply adds:

    
    
      I have the same issue with the 900S model. 
     
      I have tried the newest kernel 4.6 but linux doesn't
      even list the pci express device in lspci.
    

So no, positively not the 3.2.x kernel to blame here.

[1] [https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-
Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK...](https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-
Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-
missing/td-p/3339206)

~~~
voltagex_
Right. Thanks for that. I am reacting to the claims that it's "locked by
Microsoft". This looks to be missing Linux support for an Intel device. Sad,
but not unusual.

------
FuNe
Lenovo again. As if the recent thinkpad scandal was not enough. Incidentally I
know of another company that went to bed with MS and it didn't work out very
well - enter Nokia.

~~~
thirdsun
Don't forget about other greatest hits like the Superfish scandal.

------
tinus_hn
Do not attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by
stupidity. I see no conspiracy here, just an OEM that doesn't get it.

~~~
aangjie
You're quoting Hanlon's Razor.. But this could also be Hanlon's
Dodge([https://cluelesscreationcorporation.quora.com/When-the-
burea...](https://cluelesscreationcorporation.quora.com/When-the-bureaucracy-
fails))... I'm not saying it is, but it could be.

~~~
transfire
Never knew this principle had a name. Will have to try to remember it. Of
course for us plebeians, it is oft heard "ignorance is no excuse".

~~~
MawNicker
I would _love_ a resource that related the various notions, expressions and
idioms of society in the way that you just did. The sophistication of this
association is well beyond anything machine learning can do. Except for maybe
to crawl the internet and determine it was a relevant association stated by
some human somewhere.

------
supergirl
A "product expert" forum support guy reveals a SECRET AGREEMENT between
Microsoft and Lenovo. Come on.

~~~
kbart
I don't see word "secret" anywhere in his answer.

EDIT: [http://imgur.com/a/niewu](http://imgur.com/a/niewu)

~~~
makaronin
I named it secret because these laptops have been sold for months and no one
was aware of this agreement with MS until today.

------
INTPenis
On some recent Lenovo laptops.

I have a recent X260 running Fedora 24 and I'm very happy with it, and with
Fedoras support. I use both smartcard and 4G data module with it. Only thing I
don't use is the fingerprint reader.

Only sad bit is that I had to disable SecureBoot to run VirtualBox. I would
have happily signed the VirtualBox kernel modules if it wasn't for Lenovo
missing a small detail in the implementation of the UEFI spec that enables
users to write their own MOK.

~~~
beagle3
Wait a second. Are you running Fedora24 on metal or on Virtualbox? If on
metal, then how do the (unsigned) virtual box kernel modules matter?

And if on virtualbox - you don't actually know if it would run on metal.
VirtualBox hides quite a lot from you.

(I expect that it will run on metal - I just don't think you have evidence one
way or another if you are running it on vbox)

~~~
INTPenis
I said I was running Fedora 24 on an X260, implied that it's on metal.

However, I also want to run VirtualBox inside Fedora, because my job requires
me to have a Windows VM. And VirtualBox has its own kernel modules, with
SecureBoot they need to be signed. Unfortunately the poor UEFI implementation
Lenovo has provided won't let me enter my own MOKs into the UEFI because
coincidentally that little write call is missing.

I dunno, tinfoil hat surgically implanted under my scalp, it feels like
they're not making it easy for Linux, when the Linux community is doing their
best to adapt to SecureBoot.

Edit: And just to be clear, I did of course disable SecureBoot at this
discovery but it was sad to do so because I had hoped to see how well Linux
had adapted to this new tech that came out several years ago and was heralded
as a Linux blocker. ;)

~~~
Nux
Why don't you use KVM/libvirt instead of Vbox?

~~~
sangnoir
I'm not sure that would help - libvirt _also_ has kernel modules

~~~
cesarb
The kvm kernel modules come with the Fedora kernel, and thus are already
signed by Fedora's key.

It's virtualbox which for some reason won't upstream their kernel modules, so
they have to be compiled and installed by its users.

------
Yaggo
Just out of curiosity, what's the rationale for MS & Lenovo to do this, why to
risk PR? The number of people wanting to install Linux is marginal and they
are already "on the wrong side".

~~~
dx034
I guess they just wanted to lock out Windows 7/8\. They don't gain anything by
denying Linux to a few people. But preventing that the buyer can downgrade to
Windows 7 fits exactly to their strategy and makes sense for Microsoft.

Also, an agreement to lock out Linux might not be legal from an antitrust
perspective, whereas an agreement to restrict usage to the current version of
the OS is much less critical.

~~~
vlehto
Why lock on 7? (Probably same reason than promoting free 10, but I didn't get
that either.)

~~~
dest
Microsoft prevents users from rolling back to Windows 7, maybe because
Microsoft gets more data from its users with W10.

Data looks like the new business model of Windows.

------
rngesus
This sounds like "linux kernel missing support for some new proprietary intel
device"

I'll see if i can pick one of these up on my way home and do some testing :)

~~~
voltagex_
Very interested in seeing your results. I wish I had the cash on hand to just
pick up a laptop for the hell of it.

------
HugoDaniel
Microsoft 2016: lots of open-source, still closed-minded.

------
dewiz
Maybe someone can help me understanding.

Why is it OK to lock down smartphones, TV devices, consoles, but not OK for
PCs?

~~~
wazoox
When was it okay to prevent me to do what _I_ want to something _I_ own ?
Absolutely never ever. Region locking of DVDs, DRMs of all sorts, smartphones
locking are plain, shameless abuse.

It's however particularly unacceptable to lock down what used to be open.

~~~
wastedhours
Is worth saying that for most things, you buy them in the state they're in -
there's no "right" to openness, as much as we might want it. Just because you
own a house, doesn't mean you can just put a 6 storey extension in the garden.

Then tension is that we've almost always been able to install Linux on
standard Windows machines and so have gotten used to it being open, but I'd be
loathed to say (if the manufacturers have decided to make it tricky
deliberately or just not thinking) we have a fundamental _right_ to do it.

~~~
wolfgke
> there's no "right" to openness

But there is a right not to buy this stuff and a right to tell other people
not to buy it, too. There is also a right to tell the vendors how much you
abhor them for selling such closed products and there is a right to tell
journalists or other people why buying closed products is a really bad idea.
And you have a right to lobby to make producing/buying closed products
socially unacceptable.

~~~
wastedhours
Exactly. If you want openness then tell the manufacturers you want openness
and people can put their money where their mouths are, however, I still don't
believe expecting it as default when exceptionally few people (relatively
speaking) ever have or will, is an entirely rational thought process.

------
eth0up
Lenovo... I instantly think of SuperFish. I remember years ago determining to
never own a Lenovo after attempting to change the wireless chip to one of
identical size/compatibility only to find that it would not boot - the BIOS
had a whitelist for one chip. HP has also done this. No Lenovo and no HP for
me.

~~~
unexistance
so what are you using now?

~~~
eth0up
Acer, with Debian Testing.

------
ravenstine
It's things lIke this that destroy any enthusiasm over Microsoft doing things
like bring Bash to Windows. Clearly, nothing has changed in Microsoft's
business practices, and we can't let PR like "Microsoft loves Linux" fool us.
Baller might as well still be CEO.

------
nitinreddy88
Is it more of hardware/pc manufacture issue rather than portraying it as
"Windows" issue?

~~~
voltagex_
Yes. The hint is in the screenshot that mentions not being able to use the
drive in the Windows 10 installer (WinPE).

------
colemickens
Which is more likely? That Lenovo shipped a crappy BIOS, like plenty of OEMs
have done before? Or that Microsoft is engaging in a covert conspiracy to
block Linux users via forcing Lenovo to put the HD into Intel RST mode rather
than ACHI?

It just doesn't make a bit of sense. If Microsoft wanted to block Linux, they
would just require that SecureBoot not be disabled and require disablement of
user key enrollment.

Besides, a clean copy of the Windows installation media doesn't boot normally
_either_ unless you slip the Intel RST driver into a custom built version of
the install media.

This is just another conspiracy that I don't think makes any practical or
logical sense.

~~~
pwdisswordfish
That's just what THEY want you to think!!!11

Seriously, though-. If Microsoft blocked Linux _overtly_ , they probably
couldn't get away with it so easily; they'd end up with a PR disaster and/or
an antitrust lawsuit. Plausible deniability helps them; now you can bet some
people are going to say "come on, firmware screw-ups are no news, what are
you, some kind of conspiracy theorist?" I mean, they have already taken
advantage of ACPI in this way once.

(Tongue in cheek. It's not so totally implausible.)

------
languagewars
First they came for the crapware license deals, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Windows User.

Then they came for spammer license deals, and I did not speak out— Because I
was not a Windows User.

Then they came to install back doors, and I did not speak out— Because I was
not a Windows User.

Then they came for my ability to install Linux—and there was no one left to
speak for me.

~~~
kelnos
C'mon, have some class. You're really going to co-opt a quote decrying war
crimes and genocide to complain about not being able to install an alternative
OS on your hardware?

~~~
mverwijs
With closed source software, such as the firmwares and MacOSes of the world,
it is impossible to have 'checks and balances'. Yet without computers to run
and develop open software on, it is that much harder to create alternatives to
those closed systems.

I think this is very much a sliding scale. And that therefor the quote very
much applies.

~~~
kelnos
I'm still a bit flabbergasted: you really truly believe that disallowing
installing Linux on a particular brand/model of laptop is directly comparable
to the forced labor and extermination of millions of Jewish people during WW2?

~~~
eth0up
I reluctantly comment here, but.. The misuse of technology (see: end of
encryption; end of privacy; end of freedom; slippery slopes, etc.) could (by
my perspective) lead to massive problems, including political/ideological
persecution. However, "directly comparable" it probably isn't, yet.

If (IF) a time comes when the only software available is proprietary,
restrictive, invasive and possibly insecure, in a world where software is
ubiquitous and often essential, I think that could be bad. The definition of
fascism does come to mind.

~~~
mverwijs
The question that pops up into my mind is: what steps preceed such a world?

Microsoft blocking installs of Linux on computers that I own, seems one of
those steps to me.

~~~
eth0up
I suspect a three-letter agency or two may be taking some steps, certainly not
impaired by telemetry, backdoors or hording vulnerabilities - all of which I
sort of prefer to try and avoid by using the OS and configuration of my
choice.

------
mariusavram
This might be helpful for some of you: 10 Places To Buy A Laptop With Linux
Preloaded [http://www.cyberciti.biz/hardware/laptop-computers-with-
linu...](http://www.cyberciti.biz/hardware/laptop-computers-with-linux-
installed-or-preloaded/)

------
kennell
Amazing how Lenovo managed to turn "Thinkpad", a respected and loved brand
name, into shit within just a few years.

~~~
hatmatrix
Most of the problems are with the non-Thinkpad line, no?

~~~
godmodus
They're not as water resistant or as durable as they used to be, intact, not
at all. I've been using thinkpads for 10 years. I've had a p61, x200, x201s
and an x230. The x230 is when it started to break down. It's a shit laptop.
Ive also worked on an T440 and upgraded it's ram for a colleague - it's
extremely hard to open.

Sad to see such a loved frame be butchered like that.

~~~
watmough
Try a yoga 110e .... Full metal edu chrome book.

------
asdf742
I doubt it's Linux they're concerned about. I think it's more likely that the
driver in question only works for Windows 10.

------
borplk
For the past couple of years I have been consistently amazed at how bad Lenovo
has become.

What a bunch of morons are in charge.

Every year I wonder if it's going to get worse and sure enough they do
something stupid.

------
paulddraper
To quote Ashtefere on Reddit,

> * The linux drivers for the NVME chipset in this laptop do not yet exist. No
> one is stopping them from being built.

> * Signature edition PC's must be locked into their highest performing mode
> in bios - this happens to be the NVME raid mode in the bios

> * Windows can't even see this because the chipset is so new, thus the extra
> driver needing to be loaded.

> * Lenovo have not yet built a linux version of this driver, but when they do
> you would also need to preinstall it or use a distro that includes it.

> * Again, no one is stopping you from building the driver yourself.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_micro...](https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/d7vym2w)

So....it sucks for compatibility. But it doesn't preclude compatibility.

~~~
Udo
I wish I could upvote this a thousand times, you're the only one here who saw
it apparently, and nobody seems to care that the premise of this whole
"scandal" is entirely fabricated.

It feels strange to be defending Microsoft and Lenovo like this, but Microsoft
most likely had nothing to do with this specific configuration. There is no
version of Windows that comes with a driver for this RAID controller, just the
same as there is no Linux driver yet.

While I _might_ be tempted to believe that locking to RAID mode is a
deliberate choice by Lenovo to take options away from users, the target here
is not Linux. The target is Joe User who now can't (re-)install Windows on his
machine. That's the freedom they're trying to take away.

Of course it doesn't help that Lenovo's marketing/support departments are
utterly incompetent in communicating this, and switch to "guilty mode" by
default.

By the way, _actually_ locking out Linux would be an easy feat: just require a
Microsoft-signed secure boot loader in UEFI. That's the real horror scenario,
not this RAID driver nonsense.

------
AdmiralAsshat
Looks like ZDNet picked up the story:

[http://www.zdnet.com/article/lenovo-reportedly-blocking-
linu...](http://www.zdnet.com/article/lenovo-reportedly-blocking-linux-on-
windows-10-signature-edition-pcs/)

Maybe we'll get an official response from Lenovo.

~~~
the17armorguy
The ZDNet article above got an update, an offical response from Lenovo. I
copied it from there:

UPDATE 9-21-16 7:25 PDT: Comment from Lenovo:

"To improve system performance, Lenovo is leading an industry trend of
adopting RAID on the SSDs in certain product configurations. Lenovo does not
intentionally block customers using other operating systems on its devices and
is fully committed to providing Linux certifications and installation guidance
on a wide range of products
-[https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/documents/pd031426](https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/documents/pd031426).
Unsupported models will rely on Linux operating system vendors releasing new
kernel and drivers to support features such as RAID on SSD."

So no Microsoft involvement, just a lack of drivers on Linux's part. Although
Lenovo could offer a method for owners to switch the SSD from RAID to AHCI
mode to improve compatibility.]

~~~
ManlyBread
>To improve system performance

How can they say that when this improvement effectively brings performance to
zero for Linux users?

------
aws_ls
So sad to hear this. I am typing this comment from a Ubuntu on Lenovo (some
2014 model). Looks like Lenovo is not interested in business of us people.

Also Microsoft, of late, has been getting some positive news regarding open
source contribution. Looks like there are parts of it, which continue to
remind us, why we hated it so much pre 2004, when it lost the computing
dominance war with Google.

------
voltagex_
Dupe, also really misinformed.

------
akerro
Does anyone own novena or librem? I think they have became worth their prices.
They're quite expensive, but you don't have to bother with crap like some day
you won't be install Linux or BSD distro because someone loves your hardware
too much and want to force you to being spied on.

~~~
morganvachon
Are you seriously equating the Novena with Librem? The former is a fully open
hardware/software platform built from the ground up with openness and
hackability in mind; some assembly required, configure it the way you want to.
The latter is a rebranded x86 laptop with Intel's Management Engine firmly
embedded and operational; it's a $600 midrange at best laptop being resold
with Linux preinstalled for three times the price because it's "open".

~~~
akerro
Is there anything else?

~~~
morganvachon
Sure. The Novena is not for everyone; it's a hacker's dream laptop but not
necessarily a power user's. Still, I strongly suggest not wasting money on a
Librem and instead spend a little time researching a good Linux compatible
laptop.

The last I heard, Dell still ships Ubuntu on some of their XPS models, and
there are a few companies whose business model is based on officially
supporting Linux on their own branded machines. System76[1] and ZaReason[2]
immediately come to mind, but if you're seeking a fully open machine with no
closed source drivers, look to Libiquity[3] for an older but FSF certified
ThinkPad. Yes, it's a rebranded Lenovo so it may be a sour choice given the
subject of this article, but it's a solid buy if you don't need today's CPU
power. Ditto Minifree[4].

[1] [https://system76.com/](https://system76.com/) [2]
[http://zareason.com/shop/home.php](http://zareason.com/shop/home.php) [3]
[https://shop.libiquity.com/product/taurinus-x200](https://shop.libiquity.com/product/taurinus-x200)
[4] [https://minifree.org/](https://minifree.org/)

------
supergirl
you all put too much value in some "product expert" guy's words. if you dealt
with support before, you know 90% of the time they don't know what they're
talking about. I mean, come on, some support guy reveals a SECRET AGREEMENT
between Microsoft and Lenovo? Come on.

------
textmode
In a world where the most important computer networks and a substantial number
of devices connecting to them run on free, open source software, the user's
hardware needs are simple:

1\. it must work with an open source bootloader and 2\. there must be some
open source drivers for it.

But those are actually _software_ needs, so how is it that hardware companies
are allowed to dictate the outcome of the above two points?

How are they allowed under the law to create intentional incompatibilities?

Can other companies reverse engineer in order to write free, open source
software?

Does anyone ever violate an NDA and win?

The benefits of inoperability are undeniable. These issues were ripe in the
1980's and are still very relevant today.

The discussion of the IBM PC BIOS in this thread is worth reading.

------
userbinator
I wonder what happens if you try to boot DOS (e.g. from USB) on current
hardware, including these laptops.

My newest laptop isn't that new; it's an IBM x60 (the famous one with the
fully free BIOS available, although I haven't switched... yet) and it does run
DOS perfectly well. When I replaced the HDD with an SSD all I had to do was
image the partition over to the new one and everything just worked. I've run
Linux and even OS X(!) on it.

But from the experiences I've seen of people with newer hardware, including
articles like this and the other one about new CPUs and Windows 10, it appears
newer PCs are becoming far more closed and proprietary, and that's definitely
NOT a good thing.

------
UK-AL
Silly headline.

In reality they're using a weird raid mode, no ones written a linux driver for
yet.

~~~
captainmuon
That would not be headline-worthy. There are many devices that don't have
Linux drivers.

The real problem is that somebody went out of their way to remove the ACPI
setting in the BIOS, and apparently did this only for the Microsoft store
"Signature" edition. Furthermore it doesn't seem to be a technical neccessity,
since after re-flashing the BIOS the laptop works in ACPI mode with Linux and
Windows.

Whether or not this was due to malice is besides the point for me personally.
They should just say "oops, my bad" and set the flag allowing ACPI in the next
BIOS revision.

------
m0ngr31
I have a Lenovo Yoga 900 Signature Edition I just picked up from the Microsoft
Store a month or so ago. Works great with Ubuntu, I guess I got an older model
that didn't have the issue.

Although, I saw this mentioned a while ago when I was first installing it:
[https://allanbogh.com/2015/12/23/installing-
ubuntu-16-04-dai...](https://allanbogh.com/2015/12/23/installing-
ubuntu-16-04-daily-on-a-lenovo-yoga-900/)

------
yuhong
This is a good time to mention
[https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/thinkcentre_bios/9sj995us...](https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/thinkcentre_bios/9sj995usa.txt),
with the quote "Fixes the issue of installing Redhat 6.3." (If you don't
remember:
[https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/20187.html](https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/20187.html))

------
tracker1
And the first distro to release an update that supports this hardware
configuration wins.. and imho, that would be awesome... the behavior itself by
Lenovo is deplorable, and I will probably not be buying from them ever
again... Haven't purchased a Sony labelled product in well over a decade now..
Lenovo is on that list too after the spyware issue a couple years ago.

------
aabbcc1241
I won't buy those 'designed for Windows' machine, even when it's 'compatible'
to Linux out of the box.

Why bother to pay for the M$ license fee while you're going to rub out the
disk and install Linux at the first place? (just bought a laptop from System76
recently)

------
aabajian
I have mixed feelings about this. If the company owned the ecosystem - e.g. a
Microsoft Surface or an Apple MacBook, would we expect them to support a
different operating system? Albeit, MacBooks do support Windows.

I think it's fair that a vendor support the operating system(s) they
advertise. If Lenovo doesn't claim to support Linux (or any other OS), it's OK
for them to do whatever they want to prevent users from installing a different
operating system. I'd even go so far as saying that a different OS should void
the warranty. There are programs out their that will brick the BIOS if ran
incorrectly.

I know this is controversial, but it's a functional business model of a large
company that needs to provide support. With that said, nobody should ever buy
Lenovo after their SuperFish ordeal. They should've been sued out of business:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfish#Lenovo_security_inci...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfish#Lenovo_security_incident)

------
zekevermillion
I guess there is some logic, in that refurbished Lenovo laptops are still one
of the more popular vehicles for Linux. I just installed Fedora on a refurb
T410, slapped in an SSD, and for my (rather light) workload I notice no
disadvantage compared with desktop Win10.

------
lnx01
Stallman was right.

------
lottin
Classic Microsoft.

Their supposed FOSS turn is an obvious trap. Trust them at your own peril.

~~~
tychuz
Classic Linux zealot/fanboy. M$ is evil and the root cause of a problem.

-Evidence?

-It's M$ bruh.

~~~
vetinari
Yeah, it's not like they have a history of undermining whatever they consider
competition, right?

------
niutech
Don't buy a Lenovo laptop. You won't have control over it. They were
installing ton of adware and a rootkit which is enabled even after formatting
disk, and now this.

------
known
Sounds like
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_lending](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_lending)

------
AhtiK
Timing couldn't be better to now announce the new MacBook Pro.

The issue doesn't affect Thinkpad line but sure does help people to make a
buying decision between a MBP and a Thinkpad.

~~~
jpetso
Because Macbook Pros are known for hassle-free Linux support?

~~~
AhtiK
For most of these people it's a decision between OS X on MBP vs Linux on a
non-Apple laptop.

------
swiley
My current laptop is dying, stuff like this (lenovo in particular often comes
to mind) is why I keep fixing it. Shopping for a new computer is just so
incredibly unpleasant.

------
JoeAltmaier
...until Linux supports the new hardware modes.

Linux always lags in new hardware support. Other than the appallingly bad way
Lenovo handled the questions on their site, is this news?

------
debacle
I've been boycotting Lenovo for years. Their build quality is low quality
compared to other vendors (Asus, Dell, MSI) and then there's stuff like this.

~~~
JadeNB
In a spurt of dissatisfaction with Apple, I tried a few years ago to buy a PC,
and bought a Lenovo precisely because I'd heard such _good_ things about their
build quality. My monitor had a prominent dead pixel and my spacebar didn't
work, so my impression wasn't positive, but I thought that it was just bad
luck.

Has the community perception of Lenovo's build quality changed, or did I just
get the wrong idea in the first place?

~~~
debacle
You got the wrong idea in the first place, I think. For the first few years
after the IBM split, Thinkpads were of pretty good quality. Now they're pretty
poor, and Lenovo's other offerings are generally crap.

------
makaronin
Why was the title changed to "a recent Lenovo laptop" when at least four
models are affected: Yoga 900 ISK2, Yoga 900S,Yoga 710S and Ideapad 710S.

~~~
captainmuon
Also, it seems only "Signature Edition" laptops are affected, i.e. those from
the MS store. I think that makes a big difference.

~~~
makaronin
It does not make a much difference as all new Lenovo ultrabooks are "Signature
Edition".

------
jorgecastillo
Another Lenovo story.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9072424](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9072424)

------
Steeeve
This kind of thing is seen as a positive in the infosec space, is it not?
Meaning that an end user can't come along and boot linux (or anything else)
via USB and bypass system security controls.

I'm personally not a fan and won't buy anything locked up in such a way, but
I'm pretty sure that the security team is. Regardless, we see this all the
time in other devices - tablets, phones, routers, gaming consoles, etc. It's
only logical that MS would want to pursue lock-in in their subsidized
environments as well.

~~~
striking
If your disk is encrypted, no one's getting in there. The most they could do
is wipe your machine clean and use it as their own, and I think that's still
possible with this model of laptop.

------
joelbondurant
Computing appliances produced by Apple and Lenovo are better for most
developers than complicated tools like computers.

------
mvidal01
I was just about to consider a Lenovo laptop. This is such a turn off that I'm
putting it way down the list now.

------
Happpy
I was/am going to buy a Thinkpad T560. Is it affected? When is it a 'signature
edition'?

------
zenobit256
I have to wonder if this will end up spilling over into the ThinkPad line...

I'd be worried at that point.

------
kbart
I wonder if similar ruling[1] for alternative OS'es as with browsers could be
reached?

1\.
[http://ec.europa.eu/competition/consumers/web_browsers_choic...](http://ec.europa.eu/competition/consumers/web_browsers_choice_en.html)

------
ctack
Lenovo is closing a door, leaving an opportunity for someone else to open one.

~~~
praptak
This might be the case for this particular issue. But in the long term saying
no to a deal is not a sufficient defense against freedoms being taken away.

------
JepZ
I really like this post... Linux seems to become more mainstream :D

------
StreamBright
I like these catchy titles. How long is this going to last? We have hackers
who can crack iPhone pin codes designed to be secure and make hacking
impossible. I guess we see a new BIOS that can enable Linux installations
within a month.

~~~
borplk
That's not the point.

I'm not paying thousands of dollars to get something that needs to be
"cracked" to work the way I want.

Lenovo will not see a single dollar of mine, ever.

------
ausjke
I hope this is not true, that Microsoft is still in war with open source,
under a different cover this time, embrace-then-eliminate. but again, this has
been its gene for decades, so really no surprise to me.

------
tunichtgut
Well, i will never buy one of those. Thats for sure.

------
CommanderData
This is shocking. I was looking for an ultrabook and the Lenovo Yoga series
700 or 900 series appealed to me. Learning this I don't know what to do now.

~~~
coldtea
> _This is shocking._

No, the fact that people would believe some conspiracy with the specific
intent of locking Linux is the case is shocking.

------
silverbln
Microsoft is in a bad shape, isn't it? So this is what we see when titans like
MS, Google, Apple, etc. are falling. I expect even more coming...

~~~
lagadu
"Falling" is an interesting description, considering all 3 corporations you
listed doubled or almost tripled their market cap within the last 5 years.

If anything they're falling upwards.

------
simophin
disgusting company. it's the first time I'm ashamed of being a Chinese

~~~
talideon
...since 1989?

------
SFJulie
Basically with DMCA still going on, if you manage to install linux you WILL be
a criminal.

Freedom is a crime \o/

Computing is fun again

------
bscm
wait a minute, I thought Microsoft loved linux?

------
elt0n
Gross

------
marcell
As much as I'd love to (hate to) see vintage 1990's Microsoft back in evil
empire mode, this doesn't make sense.

What is their motive here? The Windows vs. Linux battle is long settled, and
Windows is not under thread from Linux. Why would they intentionally block
Linux on one vendors laptops, gaining basically no profit/market share, and
risking lawsuits and online outrage?

Hanlon's razor applies; I assume this is a case of incompetence.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor)

~~~
beagle3
In my opinion, motive is locking win7/win8 out. Locking linux out would be a
happy (for MS) coincidence in this case.

~~~
JBReefer
I'm going with this theory - it makes more sense than "MS HATES LINUX!!11!!"

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phantom_oracle
I see lots of folks referencing the Dell XPS laptops.

Just as a FWIW, here is another option:

[https://system76.com/](https://system76.com/)

As per my opinion on this, I'd rather see people not have knee-jerk reactions
to Lenovo screwing up Linux support and people rushing for "alternatives", but
rather make a concerted effort to support companies focused on Linux-supported
hardware (for the long-term).

Also, this story combined with the HP printer story really makes you wonder
why hardware manufacturers are going backwards towards locked-systems when
their software divisions "embrace the world of open source". Hardware really
is the final frontier for open-source.

~~~
zyrthofar
I've heard some good and bad reviews about system76 and zareason. I'm
currently considering the Librem 13 on [https://puri.sm/](https://puri.sm/)
for when they come out in october.

~~~
wolfgke
Why doesn't puri.sm even include an Ethernet port in their premium product
Librem 15 and in Librem 11 (though they do in Librem 13); cf.
[https://puri.sm/store/](https://puri.sm/store/). There are very good reasons
to use ethernet and strongly avoid use of WiFi if you are serious about
privacy. For example consider slides 69-76 of
[http://de.slideshare.net/grugq/opsec-for-
hackers](http://de.slideshare.net/grugq/opsec-for-hackers), where the FBI
could see when there was data sent/received by simply looking at when there
was activity in the suspect's private WLAN (something that is not possible in
this form for ethernet) and decorrelate it to his TOR activity.

------
thedonkeycometh
That fossboss site is renowned for badly researched and terribly worded
articles

------
danjoc
>but they apologized for superfish

>but the rootkit is only a problem on Windows

>but it's still a great machine for Linux

I hope the people who told me that are now reading this.

------
tiatia
Well. Typical Chinese. If they can make a buck by screwing a customer over,
they will make the buck.

You know Keizen? From Japan? The continuous improvement of products..

Chinese have something similar. Geizen. ("to be stingy").

Geizen, the continuous deterioration of product quality to increase profits.
Same a millimeter in the thickness of the case. Use cheaper steal, make the
cables shorter. The thing needs 6 screws? It will hold fine with 5. Will even
hold with only 4. Maybe 3?

And if Microsoft gives a buck to lock the consumer in, why bother telling him?
All part of Geizen.

------
dream-on
"Windows 10 can't be installed on a recent Raspberry Pi."

I am sure it can -- and one wonders why Microsoft bothered to port it -- but
why go through the hassle?

The point is that users can buy small form factor computers and these
computers do not run Windows.

They are called development boards.

Perhaps these boards are the future of "general purpose computing".

And perhaps they can be paired these with sexy enclosures that are made by
company run by designers that does not sell electronics - they only sell
enclosures.

And they look better than Apple's.

Then I woke up. It was just a dream.

------
simbalion
The website is down, this story deserves it's own website behind a CDN so
people can be adequately warned.

win10antitrust.us is available on namecheap.com for $0.88.

------
simbalion
Blatant anti-trust violation in several nations.

Microsoft has _repeatedly_ lost anti-trust lawsuits in the past 16 years for
this exact sort of behavior. How is it that they have not learned their
lesson?

Windows 10 is failing, and now they've taken actions which will surely incur
billions of dollars in fines. I would not be at all surprised if the ruling
judge in the inevitable lawsuit punishes them harshly for not learning their
lesson the first several times.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation)

Whatever executives are responsible for this should be drawn and quartered by
the investors.

And hardly anyone is talking about Lenovo's liability. They are just as guilty
as Microsoft and they're a much smaller company, will this destroy them?

~~~
davidgerard
> Microsoft has _repeatedly_ lost anti-trust lawsuits in the past 16 years for
> this exact sort of behavior. How is it that they have not learned their
> lesson?

Lack of effective penalties, clearly.

------
seesomesense
Class action suit starting...

