
ArenaNet ‘folded like a cheap card table,’ says fired Guild Wars 2 writer - MilnerRoute
https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/9/17549492/arenanet-jessica-price-guild-wars-2-writer-fired
======
speeder
Some important details many posters here might miss:

1\. Jessica Price was seemly fired before for having conflicts with her
costumers, in another company.

2\. Jessica Price did some other stuff on twitter that were ticking fans off,
for example she wrote a tweet commemorating TotalBiscuit death (instead of
offering condolences)

3\. The person she called a "rando asshat" that shouldn't give his opinion
about game writing to her, is a official partner of ArenaNET, is wildly
popular, has an NPC named after him, and he is famous because he analyzes the
game lore. He probably knows more about GuildWars lore than she did.

4\. She also attacked another official ArenaNET partner that tried to explain
to her why she was overreacting.

5\. She, and Peter Fries, made clear that when off the clock they don't have
to pretend to be nice and that fan feedback is not welcome, thing is, Jessica
Price had ArenaNET name in her twitter account, and the conversation started
when she was on the clock, the initial conversation was on July 3th.

6\. The person she called sexist and whatnot, was replying to her AMA, and he
was very polite, also he was a super fan of hers, there is videos of him
praising her, this is why he wrote he was "dishearted" with her reaction.

7\. And for wider context, community got angry so fast because several other
incidents like this been overlooked, for example Rami Ismail wrote a bunch of
openly racist stuff on twitter and got no punishment over it, when the pair
were fired, people were genuinely surprised, and now the subreddit and forum
is littered with people praising the devs instead, or telling what their
favourite part of the game is, and so on.

And disclosing: I never played Guild Wars 2, neither interacted with any of
hte persons involved, neither used or bought any other products any of the
persons involved worked on, I am just a bystander that was fascinated by what
was going on.

~~~
chc
It sounds like the ArenaNet community is happy that talking about one's
experience as a female developer is punished more harshly than being openly
racist. That seems … un-good. I wouldn't be patting them on the back for that.

~~~
mrguyorama
She didn't "talk about one's experience as a female developer", she implied a
semi-important figure in the community was interacting in bad faith, when such
a conclusion is non-obvious. She colored her view of the interaction with her
own prejudices, and responded disrespectfully because of that.

That's unprofessional to do

~~~
chc
No, she didn't. She said that a semi-important member of the community was not
an experienced video game writer, which is accurate as far as I can tell. She
also said that this was an example of the trend of people who aren't experts
in a field trying to correct women who are experts. Assuming he is in fact not
a video game writer, this is also factually true. She didn't suggest bad
faith, just that the behavior is irritating.

~~~
mrguyorama
>She also said that this was an example of the trend of people who aren't
experts in a field trying to correct women who are experts. That is also
factually true

This is true of non-women, in _any_ field

~~~
chc
Sure, it happens to men as well, albeit less often. That doesn't make it any
less irritating for women. And remember, the other person who got fired was a
male colleague who simply pointed out that he didn't have to deal with that
much nonsense and he didn't think she should either.

------
chomp
I think ArenaNet made the right call. She was using her personal twitter
account to represent her employer. Her reaction to a fan was over the top, and
not representative of the company's values. What is Twitter if not a global
discussion forum?

Deroir's comment was a polite disagreement. I have no idea how she would want
people to phrase their disagreement, or is this a case of "don't @ me with
your opinion?"

~~~
whack
The article barely mentions the original messages that sparked this row, and
it's really worth reading them before forming an opinion.

Deroir: _" Really interesting thread to read! However, allow me to disagree
_slightly _. I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your
wording seemingly suggest). I believe the issue lies in the contraints of the
Living Story 's narrative design ....."_

Price: _" Today in being a female game dev: "Allow me--a person who does not
work with you--explain to you how you do your job."

Since we've got a lot of hurt manfeels today, lemme make something clear: ...
I'm not your courtesan... Don't expect me to pretend to like you.

like, the next rando asshat who attempts to explain the concept of branching
dialogue to me--as if, you know, having worked in game narrative for a fucking
DECADE, I have never heard of it--is getting instablocked. PSA."_

I get that it can be annoying when someone who isn't an expert disagrees with
you, but her response was uncivil, rude, inflammatory and derogatory. It's
unfortunate when people can't disagree without taking things personally.

~~~
MrMember
I don't understand how anyone can defend Price here. Her reaction to a polite,
innocuous question is so over the top ridiculous it almost reads like satire.

 _Since we 've got a lot of hurt manfeels today_

Who even talks like this in real life?

------
code_duck
Having read the exchange that triggered this, I feel like I would not want
this person representing my company. The comment that the fan made was
respectful and constructive, and apparently due to her prejudices, she assumed
he was acting with specific negative motives, despite any logical evidence of
this in his words. She asks (on Twitter) ‘ask yourself what would make him say
that’... when all he did was respond to her ideas about game design,
respectfully? I think her political beliefs are interfering with her job
duties.

------
imode
Jessica's actions were disgusting. There is no excuse for this behavior, and
it's just pandering towards gender issues to disguise and sweep away her
attack on somebody offering feedback.

Polygon is not an unbiased source.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCQK3OcdkD4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCQK3OcdkD4)

------
adrianhon
I've find it profoundly disturbing just how many people feel it's perfectly
fine, and indeed laudable, for companies to immediately terminate employees
during a situation like this. Even if you think that Price's actions were
wrong, the fact that she had no warning and no recourse seems wrong. Yes, I
know ArenaNet is based in an at-will employment state (Washington) so they are
legally permitted to do this, but just because it's legal doesn't mean it's
right.

But hey - all hail our corporate gaming overlords, right?

~~~
tgb
I agree. Her reaction was ridiculous and aggressive and was done in public and
in reference to her work. Her employer absolutely should have disciplined her.
However, the increasingly aggressive presence of internet mobs saying "fire
this person or we'll make a terrible fuss!" over minor matters is absurd,
getting worse, and is being abused by people of all political identities. It's
just not an acceptable way for our society to function and the idea that it
gets lauded by whichever side gets it to "work" is disgusting. Unfortunately
the internet appears just to allow amplifying the grievances of the loudest
subset of any group.

I hope companies learn that picking sides by firing someone does not resolve
the matter and just pisses off more people. Hopefully that tones down their
response and then makes the internet mobs less aggressive because they don't
get as much satisfaction out of it.

~~~
bassman9000
* Her employer absolutely should have disciplined her. *

If her reaction to polite and constructive criticism from a user, and a
customer, was this over the top, the reaction to a harsher comment (a
disciplinary one), from her employer, wouldn't have been any better. Better to
terminate the relationship before it gets nasty.

~~~
maxerickson
It wasn't constructive criticism.

------
swsieber
(Edit: Taken in isolation:) Over-reactions all around. Price's initial
reactions were over the top (they are linked here), as well as ArenaNet's
reactions.

When a dev drops a production database by accident, you shouldn't fire the
dev. You train the dev, fix the issue, and get better policies in place.

Yet they fired Price for something much more easily repairable.

What do I think the proper solution entails? You get her a separate business
twitter account, publicly apologize for the farce, and instigate a good
personal/work social media separation policy.

Edit: I think the company lacks integrity. Instead of taking responsibility
for a problem, they burned their employee.

~~~
guitarbill
That's assuming this was the first and only incident - we don't know if it
was.

~~~
wolco
We know she was fired for similiar actions before. We also know that going
forward chances are she gets fired again for similiar actions.

~~~
swsieber
Links please. I'm curious.

------
koverda
It seemed like Derior was engaging her in a respectful discussion, and the GW
writer took it as a gendered offense for a reason that I can't seem to figure
out. Maybe it's because Derior is a man? Either way, I do think that it's
pretty ridiculous to get fired for something like that, I'd guess that
ArenaNet wouldn't fire someone they though was truly valuable for an offense
like this.

------
rellui
Here are the tweets that "triggered" this chain of event which the article
fails to quote.

[https://twitter.com/DeroirGaming/status/1014280605599748096](https://twitter.com/DeroirGaming/status/1014280605599748096)

And the subsequent response by Price

[https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1014554296107483136](https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1014554296107483136)

~~~
guitarbill
At least when I was reading, those seem to be linked (now?). Regardless,
reading those is much more informative than hearing it from second-hand
sources.

------
orbifold
Why someone would willingly under their own name participate in these kind of
flamewars that will be preserved for eternity is beyond me.

------
abledon
Considering how big that company is — they should have spent some $$$ on
hr/twitter policy training/guidelines so mucky situations like this could be
avoided. And also, if they persist, quick to be resolved as it would be more
akin to a policy lookup in a legal contract

------
astebbin
I’m struck by the apparent no-warning nature of the firing. Were internal
expectations clearly set for how employees should behave when interacting with
fans and customers? Do companies like ArenaNet with especially vocal fan
communitiecs generally have codes of conduct for employee-customer
interaction?

~~~
rellui
Seems to be partly answered by Mike Obrien:

Whatever Jessica and Peter felt internally about the situation, this was
objectively a customer engaging us respectfully and professionally, presenting
a suggestion for our game. Any response from our company needed to be
respectful and professional. A perceived slight doesn’t give us license to
attack.

We’ve all dedicated our careers to entertaining people, to making games for
the purpose of delighting those who play them. We generally have a wonderful
relationship with our community, and that’s a point of pride for us. We want
to hear from our players. It’s not acceptable that an attempted interaction
with our company — in this case a polite game suggestion — would be met with
open hostility and derision from us. That sets a chilling precedent.

------
FussyZeus
I'd like to get clarification because the way the article flows, it seems like
they're saying Jessica Price was engaging with the fanbase aggressively via
official channels, and not her own personal twitter account, which is a huge
difference. Are we now in a place where your employer gets to dictate how you
present yourself on social media? When I'm on the clock, absolutely, I have to
stay on message when using the official accounts, but on my own? Fuck all of
that, and fuck anyone who thinks that way. I am my employer's resource from
when I come into the office to when I go home, and for brief moments whilist
remote-ing in to handle an issue, and outside of that I should have legal
protections to do whatever the hell my heart desires, and that includes
talking.

And tangent-ally related:

> Today in being a female game dev: ‘Allow me — a person who does not work
> with you — explain to you how you do your job.’

That is beautiful, and the essence of my growing rage at my fellow nerds in
various fandoms.

~~~
chomp
If you make posts on Twitter and social media with your personal account, but
present yourself as "Employee of so-and-so" and muse about your product and
engage people with that persona, you've blended your personal and work
personas. Anything you do on your personal account now reflects on the
company.

>I am my employer's resource from when I come into the office to when I go
home, and for brief moments whilist remote-ing in to handle an issue, and
outside of that I should have legal protections to do whatever the hell my
heart desires, and that includes talking.

If you separate work and personal life so distinctly, then why talk about work
and present your work persona on your personal accounts!

~~~
FussyZeus
Oh that is such a load. Who on earth goes through twitter accounts or Facebook
accounts to evaluate the employees of a company before they decide to do
business with them?

I simply can't envision a scenario where Bob's Hot Dogs is going to refuse to
use a payment processor like Square because one of Square's marketing people
posted to twitter once like 2 years ago that hot dogs suck. And where are we
drawing the line here? So you're saying by virtue I'm saying I'm an X at Y
Company that I'm now representing that company 24/7 until I quit? That's
insane, full bore insane.

> If you separate work and personal life so distinctly, then why talk about
> work and present your work persona on your personal accounts!

Because who doesn't!? I follow hundreds of people who regularly discuss their
careers and what they do at work, most of them being developers and admins.

~~~
Karunamon
> _And where are we drawing the line here?_

Answering most of your questions: Causing controversy. Just faffing about on
social media, even negatively, generally won't be a problem until such time as
you portray your employer in a bad light (say, by shouting at their customers
apropos of nothing) and cause them a PR issue.

------
jessaustin
What a cesspool. Reading this makes me want to never spend another dime on a
computer game...

~~~
abledon
You’re in luck! Guild wars 2 is free to play. I’ll see you in the
plainsfields!

~~~
jessaustin
F2P if anything makes all of this worse...

------
lucio
How about analyzing the facts?

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q50oy4-UJM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q50oy4-UJM)

Is this guy analysis correct?

~~~
chc
It would be more useful to present your ideas here instead of linking to a
20-minute YouTube video.

~~~
stefan_
Of course if you try to write down your ideas, it forces you to think about
what you are saying. At that point you realize that a 20 minute ranty YouTube
video probably fits into a paragraph or two of refined thought.

I must be getting old but any controversy that involves any amount of _YouTube
bloggers_ is an immediate sign to not bother. It's intended to generate
outrage and views, in that order.

~~~
lucio
I think the facts should precede any statements of ideas in this case. Since
the article do not present the facts as a sequence of events, the video I
linked seems to be useful.

------
rm_-rf_slash
On one hand, nobody should have the presumption of work-life independence on
social media. If I go to a restaurant and act like a real jerk on Twitter and
talk trash about the food and service without restraint or civility, I should
not be surprised if my boss calls me in the next day to talk about how I am
implicitly representing my employer’s institution, even though that has
nothing to do with my job.

That being said, the response from ArenaNet was beyond disappointing. Any two-
bit boss could have convinced the developer to write an “I’m Sorry, There Were
Valid Criticisms from the Guild Wars Community” blog/Medium post, told the
developer to keep quiet on social media for a while, and let the whole thing
breeze by.

Instead, the boss decides to not only intensify the issue (and make the
company look easily bullied by a loud minority of players), but hands
ammunition to the online gaming rage mob to shut down or kick out anybody they
don’t like.

And this is all well post-GamerGate. The implications of sexism are too
obvious.

Bad move, ArenaNet.

~~~
rellui
"The implications of sexism are too obvious." How do you see this? ArenaNet
fired Peter Fries (male) for doing the exact same thing.

~~~
rm_-rf_slash
It’s naive to think that in a post-GamerGate world, an enraged internet hate
mob _wouldnt_ attack a female developer for the slightest provocation. It’s
awful and it’s ugly but it happens far too often to deny the presence of toxic
sexism, even if the instigators didn’t engage in sexism to begin with. The mob
then in turns threatens the company and scares executives into using blunt
maneuvers to avoid extended online hate campaigns that can hurt sales, which
are particularly sensitive in gaming because the capital costs for games are
so high.

Price was fired for defending her from said mob.

~~~
wolco
Would it matter if the reddit group was all female or if this person was a
male? No the person still should be fired.

~~~
rm_-rf_slash
I think you missed my original point. Nobody should believe in the existence
of work-life social media independence. It’s a myth, like the Loch Ness
Monster.

But it was an angry internet mob that caused the situation to resolve with
firing. If the developer and the streamer had their disagreements - even nasty
disagreements - and nobody else paid attention, then the developers would not
have lost their jobs.

