

I think the Chinese leadership get it - samh
http://www.samonsoftware.com/?p=502

======
ww520
FWIW, Wen Jiabao is the more liberal figure and was pro-student in the
Tiananmen Square protest. From <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Jiabao>,
"...and accompanied General Secretary Zhao Ziyang to the Tiananmen Square
during the 1989 Tiananmen Square Protests." Zhao Ziyang was removed from power
and house arrested after the protest was crushed.

It's interesting to see how the governing-by-consensus-in-committee work in
China, where each loosely formed faction having their representative in the
committee. Even Wen Jiabao who was in the wrong end of a significant power
struggle was able to become the prime minister later. Yet he's still unable to
change the policies or reopen the Tiananmen case. It means no one faction
gained upper hand and individual leader has little power. They have to get
consensus from everyone else.

------
zeteo
I would approach these speeches with a hefty dose of salt. Historically,
communism has been one big systemic lie. For goodness sake, even in a
democracy you can't take the leaders' rhetoric at face value! Do you think the
Chinese who've read the translated speeches of George Bush now think that the
invasion of Iraq was about human rights and nuclear nonproliferation? You have
to look at the actions, not the words used to mask them.

~~~
katovatzschyn
Forgive my ignorance please; but- what exactly (in your own words though of
course) was the purpose of the invasion of Iraq?

~~~
mburns
to wage war.

~~~
katovatzschyn
Please, again forgive my utter ignorance, do go on.

------
xentronium
I wouldn't be so hasty regarding Chinese development and overall politics. You
should take into account the fact they're _Eastern_ country with _Eastern_
mentality. They take different approach from most western countries because
they're different.

I guess, we shouldn't point fingers and say "Too bad they aren't democratic"
or "Too bad communism is a lie" because we cannot really guarantee that what's
good for us will be good for them.

FWIW, I think they'll continue to develop on their very own historical path
disregard whatever western countries try to do.

------
NationalHQ
China's people will make it happen. Their government seems to be contributing.
China has great strength, and they compete globally. They are in the game. The
fact is, the Chinese would be stupid not to build a just, fair and democratic
society, for the universal benefits it endows. They aren't stupid.

~~~
veidr
Dude, for fuck's sake. Intelligence and stupidity don't necessarily become key
differentiators until _after_ you achieve a reasonable measure of intellectual
freedom and individual sovereignty. Where by 'you' I mean 'you and most people
around you'.

On balance it's better to be a smart person, that only goes so far when you
are malnourished and worked 18 hours per day in a gulag. Or when you simply
had to quit school before puberty in order to obtain food for yourself or your
loved ones.

Finally: go to China and ask the people you meet how stupid they think it
would be not to build a 'democratic society'. You will be politely educated
and/or ridiculed, and realize that you are projecting your own (basically
correct) way of thinking onto people who don't think your way at all.

------
avar
So they're self-critical when speaking to western media? That could just be a
PR move and have nothing to do with their actual motivations. Is there
anything to suggest that they're actually trying to increase personal
freedoms?

If anything it seems that they're just continuing business as usual, with The
Great Firewall and other similar efforts. But I'm not very familiar with
China's politics.

~~~
samh
I think there is a lot of evidence they are improving personal freedom and the
rights of the individual, not dramatically so, not as fast as many would like.

Looking at property rights for example, the ability of people to appeal the
decisions of local authorities, the ability of people to complain about local
corruption and have action taken is reported to have improved greatly as
compared to 10,20 or 30 years ago.

------
samh
A couple of interesting things I've read about China.

Firstly many Chinese don't tie democracy and individual liberties together in
the same way people in the west do.

Secondly I read that in China much is freeing up but the "3 Ts and an F"
remain very sensitive. The "3 Ts and an F" are Tibet, Tiananmen, Taiwan and
Falun Gong

------
kapitalx
It is quite amazing what totalitarian leaders are willing to say, but its
always quite the opposite of what they will do. It always awes me when they
speak, I think to myself "Yeah, exactly, they finally get it" but soon realize
that its just talk.

