
Large Percentages of American Students Perform Above Grade Level - tokenadult
http://education.jhu.edu/edpolicy/commentary/PerformAboveGradeLevel
======
tokenadult
An additional data point on this issue is from a few years ago, the discovery
that students surveyed by the federal National Assessment of Education
Progress (NAEP), known informally as "the Nation's Report Card," often self-
report that their school lessons are so easy that school is mostly boring.

[https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education/report/201...](https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education/report/2012/07/10/11913/do-
schools-challenge-our-students/)

On my part, having lived in another country (Taiwan), I have long suspected
that most United States pupils could handle more challenging school lessons,
if only those were on offer in United States schools. For example, in almost
every other country in the world, it is routine for pupils to begin foreign
language study while still in elementary school, and in many countries
(including Taiwan and Singapore, a generation ago) the majority of school
pupils are attending school with a language of instruction that is not the
same as the language they speak at home with their parents. Yet most United
States high school graduates are resolutely monolingual English speakers,
unless they grew up with another home language besides English. International
comparisons suggest that there is still plenty of room at the top for
achievable higher standards for United States students, and that students
would enjoy school better if their lessons were more challenging.

~~~
Retric
If you look more closely at the eastern model you find they cover a lot of
completely useless material. Which is the core issue we could have people say
memorize the first 4 digits of the square and cube roots of every number from
1 to 100. And yes it's more useful than you might think. However, not enough
that students are going to remember it in 15 years.

Quick, what year did the french revolution start and end?

~~~
tokenadult
I wouldn't say that about a comparison between math problems in textbooks in
China and math problems in textbooks in the United States. (I have math
textbooks in English, and math textbooks in Chinese, a language that I read
well as a second language.) The focus on deep conceptual understanding and
open-ended problem-solving in math is actually much better in east Asia than
in the United States.

[http://condor.depaul.edu/sepp/mat660/Askey.pdf](http://condor.depaul.edu/sepp/mat660/Askey.pdf)

(I can well believe, however, that any current with a current one-party
dictatorial government, something Taiwan had the first time I lived there and
something China still has today, will lag in teaching history. Critical
thinking about history is bad for dictators. Taiwan thoroughly revised the
history textbooks after it had its peaceful transition to democracy.)

~~~
schoen
> I can well believe, however, that any current with a current one-party
> dictatorial government, something Taiwan had the first time I lived there
> and something China still has today, will lag in teaching history.

Multiparty liberal democracies allow much more scope for debating and
interpreting history, but they still commonly encourage a teleological
interpretation that glorifies the nation and its current political system.

I also get the feeling that understanding history in a meaningful way is
_hard_ , and that educational systems generally aren't making much headway
against this problem, maybe somewhat independently of how much debate or
criticism they permit. One difficulty is the conscious and semiconscious
propagandization of many historical issues by many parties, together with the
desire to see historical figures or groups we identify with in a positive
light and those we don't identify with in a negative light. Another thing is
the truth of the "past is a foreign country" observation:

[https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/L._P._Hartley](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/L._P._Hartley)

Getting inside of the minds and cultures of people from the past is really
difficult!

~~~
Retric
I remember a lot of US centric hate in my public US education. "Trail of
tears" is not exactly nationalistic propaganda. Handing out diseased blankets
to conduct large scale germ warfare. Only nation to use nuclear weapons,
conducting disease experiments on prisoners. Corruption, racism, etc etc.

I could go on, but I don't think most people got US #1 outside of being an
economic powerhouse.

~~~
emp_zealoth
Well, i think US people are the only one to chant USA on a slightest chance
and more...

~~~
schoen
Maybe people from elsewhere would instead chant the names of their own
countries? ;-)

------
fragola
My parents believed in "radical unschooling", i.e. they didn't formally teach
us anything at all. I had to ask to learn to read.

I entered the public school system for high school and did not find myself at
all behind. Much of the history kids had learned was wrong (Columbus,
anyone?), I was reading better because I basically read fantasy novels 24/7
for the last seven years, and I caught up in math in one semester even though
I started high school not knowing division. I have a BS in CS from Georgia
Tech now.

I am not surprised that students are bored in elementary school. I am also
skeptical of everyone commenting here to say things like "but in
Russia/Singapore/China/Norway school is so much harder!" etc. Any motivated
kid can catch up pretty easily. The big fear, IMO, is that you will burn your
kid out, bore your kid to death, and crush their curiosity. I am pretty sure
all school systems are capable of doing this, albeit in different ways.

------
dragonwriter
Unsurprising. Under NCLB and related measures, schools are incentivized not to
promote advanced students faster than their age peers, since they are rewarded
for improvement in (and punished for insufficient improvement or backtracking
in) the percentage of students performing at or above grade level, so students
that would otherwise have been advanced in grade ahead of their peers are held
back to the normal advancement rate to make the schools' results look better.

You get what you pay for.

~~~
galdosdi
Yeah, careful what you measure, because that's what will be gamed towards. It
reminds me of what I heard[1] (I didn't check my sources carefully, whatever)
is one reason station wagons fell out of favor relative to SUVs in the USA --
federal fuel economy standards that were divided into separate categories for
trucks and non-trucks, incentivizing the sale of small trucks rather than big
cars, even for a big car that is smaller and more effecient than a small truck
:-(

[1] [http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-
com...](http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-compact-
trucks-and-station-wagons/)

~~~
tbihl
You may also be interested to know that there has been, for much of the recent
past, a significant tax incentive to buy large SUVs (actually more to finance
them.) If GWVR> 6000 lb., you could expense $25k, vs only $11k for smaller
vehicles. I don't know the current status of this.

When I starting searching "vehicles with gwvr..." google autocompleted "..
over 6000lb." Then I found this helpful webpage on how to reduce my tax burden
by driving a stupidly large vehicle. [http://www.linkcpa.com/tax-savings-
still-available-for-heavy...](http://www.linkcpa.com/tax-savings-still-
available-for-heavy-trucks-and-vans/)

~~~
galdosdi
Thanks for the info! Wow, even more nonsense encouraging excessive weight, I
had no idea but am sadly less and less surprised :-(

This whole situation is especially horrible in light of research [1] that
shows that extra weight on motor vehicles is more dangerous to other road
users and that any extra safety for those inside the heavier vehicle is
strictly speaking being achieved by an equal and opposite "zero sum" reduction
in safety for all other road users

[1] [http://www.accessmagazine.org/articles/fall-2014/pounds-
kill...](http://www.accessmagazine.org/articles/fall-2014/pounds-kill/)

------
sandworm101
Grade inflation. Talk to highschool students in western canada/us. They talk
of 90% as a below-average score. My highschool grades, if I applied to
university today, wouldn't qualify me for anything.

There is an old skier's adage: If you aren't falling you aren't improving. By
already knowing everything, these kids learn nothing. Then after all their As
these now adults hit my classroom with reading issues and a fear of curiosity.
Anything not on the exam is to be actively ignored. Don't read anything that
might confuse the issues. Stick to the outlines.

And when the prof asks you to pick a paper topic on your own, something not
already in the outline, inundate him with panicked emails asking what you
should and shouldn't find interesting .

------
meestaplu
Students may perform above grade level in reading and math, but tests in these
areas fail to measure the skills involved in learning how to learn. No Child
Left Behind and its ilk focus on proficiency and remediation, but actually
risks leaving bright students behind. When children can breeze through their
assigned work because it’s so easy for them, they end up ill prepared for
facing challenge and failure when it finally comes. They are left with poor
study habits and time management skills because they never needed good ones
before. I’m not sure how to measure these skills but doing so may give a more
complete picture of a student’s learning situation — maybe a picture that
incentivizes challenging students according to their abilities.

------
aaroninsf
As a parent I will respond with the general observation that what most kids in
my city (SF) need is more sleep and less rote work.

I will _opine_ that what they need is more time outside. Out of the classroom.
Out of the house. On the beach and in the forest etc etc.

Unfortunately quantity of work [sheets] and number of hours invested are a
convenient proxy for 'challenging' in public education.

Fortunately my daughters go to a charter school which is ahead of the curve on
contemporary research into education and learning, and compared to their peers
in mainline SFUSD, they are relatively insulated from that false equivalence.

The cliché but oft-recounted 'tiger mom' childhood saturated completely by
academics sounds to me frankly like hell, and I would work hard to ensure that
mirroring its excesses in the US does not become the fad.

Me, I'd far rather we have a generation of rounded kids with experience of the
physical (especially, natural) world, than a cadre well trained from birth for
knowledge worker jobs which may not even exist when they become adults.

~~~
jdmichal
I've already decided that my son won't have homework when he gets to
elementary school. Studies have shown it to be a questionable practice, and I
would rather him play and explore things he's interested in instead. If that
means that he asks me about his school work, I'll be happy to talk with him
about it, and maybe even do some of the homework together. But if he's
interested in _extracurricular things_ , then that's where we're going to
spend his _extracurricular time_.

------
aresant
"Between 11% and 37% of California students scored at or above the next grade
level . . . of their current grade level. The percentages tend to be higher
for students in the older grades."

It's a pipe dream to believe that the public education system is going to
adapt to be a one-size-fits-all, especially in California's gigantic public
schools system which has a "minimum" budget of ~$70,000,000,000 allocated to
it every year.

As a parent there is clear responsibility to help our kids outside of this
structure - what strategies does HN undertake with their kids (or what did
your parents undertake with you) that helped to close this gap?

(1)
[http://www.cde.ca.gov/fg/fr/eb/budletter15-16.asp](http://www.cde.ca.gov/fg/fr/eb/budletter15-16.asp)

~~~
tokenadult
_It 's a pipe dream to believe that the public education system is going to
adapt to be a one-size-fits-all_

May I take it that you mean "It's a pipe dream to believe that the public
education system is going to adapt to be SOMETHING OTHER THAN a one-size-fits-
all"?

As a parent (of four children, two now adults) and as a voter and taxpayer, I
am of course interested in general improvements in the education systems of
all countries, and especially in the country I now live in, the United States.
I think it will be helpful for advocacy of thoughtful improvements in
education policy to be aware of how much young people do and can learn,
whether or not their schools set high standards. I think setting more
ambitious standards will make school less boring and more meaningful for the
plurality of young people in the United States, and quite possibly for the
majority of young people here.

As a parent, I chose to homeschool my children early on. That seems (according
to my oldest son's testimony, sent to me by email) to have been helpful for my
oldest son's career as a hacker. My second son may pursue a programming career
too, although he has plenty of other interests. I'm still interested in
discussions of education policy, the issue that drew me to Hacker News, here
because I can still adjust the educational plan for my two younger children
some more, and because this matters for all of us, childless or not. But so
far I have found it expedient, in a high-income school district with high
parental educational levels, to homeschool my children for their elementary
education. They then go to the friendly local high school (which has improved
its academic standards recently by dint of competition from Minnesota's public
school open-enrollment policy) and take lots of AP classes and do lots of
academic extracurricular activities with friends who have open-enrolled from
the territory of other school districts. It isn't perfect, but it's a trade-
off that works well enough for us.

------
tgarma1234
Pretty sure we are all above average now.

But seriously, it seems like schools have really drifted towards programs that
enhance self-esteem and build confidence rather than making school the
narcissistic insult it was when I was kid. I think that is fine. For the most
part you can learn everything you actually want to know or need to know
yourself later in life. It would be great if every kid left school thinking
they were really good at things and had the confidence to get out there and
try.

------
dboreham
The public school my kids attend routinely teaches the N+1 th grade math
material in grades 7 and 8 so I suspect it is well known that the official
syllabus has been pushed to allow score inflation. Same thing as all airline
timetables having 10-20 minutes padding to reduce the probability of a late
arrival.

~~~
tokenadult
_I suspect it is well known_

The submitted article suggests that this is not at all well known, and is an
understudied issue. That's my impression too from years of doing research on
education policy--most American teachers and school administrators have NO
IDEA how much more young people could be learning in the school context, and
indeed no idea how much learning the brighter kids do in the summer when they
are away from school reading on their own.

------
WalterBright
American public schools don't have much to offer highly capable students. On
the other hand, they don't stand in the way of them, either. I met many such
in college, and they found ways to get what the wanted.

~~~
dragonwriter
Generalizations about "American public school's" features are usually wrong.
Many American public schools have a lot to offer highly-capable students.
OTOH, many American public schools actually do quite a bit to stand in their
way (often, at a minimum, forcing them to spend a large portion of the day in
classes far below their ability _is_ pretty significantly standing in their
way.)

~~~
WalterBright
I'm sure there are some outstanding public schools. But the generalization
still applies.

As for forcing them to be in slow moving classes, that is not really standing
in the way. The student (and I know many who did) can be doing other things at
his desk, and certainly a lot of students are doing other things in class :-)
Some teachers also allow their highly capable students to spend class time in
the school library instead.

~~~
tbihl
The generalization was stated as an absolute, and that's why you're getting
well-deserved objection.

On your second point: it is true that the students are not chained down and
kept from self-study, but some might say that school should be a nurturing
environment, and not just not_a_jail. These students are learning the value of
waiting around without doing much of anything, and are praised for their
achievements despite having expended little effort. And I think it would be
pretty easy to get the impression that having a 4.0 GPA indicates that you're
doing well; but if you're starting the school year far ahead of the evaluation
criteria, then it's false feedback.

~~~
WalterBright
> The generalization was stated as an absolute

The word "all" was not used, and inferring it is unduly pedantic. English is
not a precise language, which is why there are qualifiers like "all", such as:

1\. leaves are green 2\. all leaves are green

You used "These students are...". I would not infer that as meaning "All these
students are..." and would be surprised if you meant it that way.

------
panglott
What real argument for age-based grades can there be?

~~~
dibujante
Socialization. A 10-year-old prodigy going into a calculus class full of
seniors is not going to spend much time socializing with their emotional
peers.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Exactly this.

I had a friend that skipped a grade, and the age difference affected her. She
was 17 in her first year of college, unable to fully participate, for example.
Many kids that are held back a year find other sorts of problems as well -
sexual maturity and hormones a year ahead of their classmates, for example.

The other problem i've seen with "advanced" students is complete seperation
from other students, with the implicit expectation that the students should be
more mature because they were smart. One school system did this from a young
age, and in high school there were multiples that simply had trouble
socializing with 'normal' students. Really had a detrimental effect on some of
them.

I would approve of specialized sorts of schedules for such 10 year olds,
however. Part of the day in the classes needed for their level, while going
back to enjoy the other classes with their emotional and developmental peers.
Art, music, physical education, lunch, recess, and some of the reading (after
all, it would be fun stories at an emotional level they understand), etc.
Perhaps even special advanced classes with a lighter homework load designed
for the advanced student, for example, could be worked in.

~~~
mgkimsal
I was pushed ahead a grade, and didn't have many issues in elementary school,
until we moved in the middle of 5th grade. Had to deal with a whole new set of
people who I'd not grown up with, and that then carried on to middle and high
school. No doubt the adolescent period would have been more difficult had I
stayed in the original school, but I think it would have had less contributing
factor.

I did occasionally get in to some 'trouble' with 'peers' (not really my peers,
but others in the school) being 'advanced'.

Example: 4th grade - teacher gets sick - our class is split in to 2 to go sit
with 5th grade classes for the last 2 hours of school. "just sit and read".
Fine... but the 5th grade teacher was covering math lessons, and was asking
questions - "who knows ... (fill in the blank)?". Silence in the room, except
for me raising my hand. "I know!" She was thinking I wanted to leave the room,
and kept ignoring me, until I spoke the answer. Pissed off the other 9-11 year
old kids having a 8 year old answer their math questions (it was something to
do with fractions).

I got a scratch-n-sniff pine tree sticker for my answer, and was told to keep
reading my book and not disturb the class any more...

Still had that sticker until a few years ago (it didn't smell any more).

------
elchief
If I were a billionaire my kids wouldn't go to school. I'd fly in experts and
pay them top dollar. Want to learn about the web today? Here's Tim Berners-Lee
to show you.

I guess I'd make them do team sports so they didn't end up weird though...

~~~
rayiner
My kid is only 3, and my dissatisfaction with public school is already
starting. We sent her to a Fairfax County (one of the top public school
districts in the country), VA preschool for a few months while we lived with
my parents while looking for a new place in D.C. They gave her a ton of
worksheets and reading exercises. Flashbacks to my horrendous experience with
FCPS.

She goes to a Montessori preschool now, where they do about an hour and a half
of real work a day and spend the rest of the day on the playground.

~~~
jdmichal
The history of kindergarten is interesting here, and I find that the
Montessori method falls well in line.

[http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&searc...](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=kindergarten)

"Kindergarten means a garden of children, and Froebel, the inventor of it, or
rather, as he would prefer to express it, the discoverer of the method of
Nature, meant to symbolize by the name the spirit and plan of treatment. How
does the gardener treat his plants? He studies their individual natures, and
puts them into such circumstances of soil and atmosphere as enable them to
grow, flower, and bring forth fruit,-- also to renew their manifestation year
after year." [Mann, Horace, and Elizabeth P. Peabody, "Moral Culture of
Infancy and Kindergarten Guide," Boston, 1863]

------
wnevets
Pretty obvious side effect of lowering standards.

------
ommunist
At the same time India has more kids with IQ over 120 than total amount of
kids in the US.

