
Whatever it is you want to say, just say it. - raganwald
http://raganwald.posterous.com/youre-probably-going-to-downvote-this-but
======
astine
I disagree. Before stating an unpopular opinion, it is sometimes helpful to
make it clear that you understand that the opinion is unpopular and that you
(probably) have a reason for bringing it up. Doing so tells people that maybe
you have something novel to say on the issue and that they should give you
fair hearing before assuming you are simply echoing an opinion that they
decided they disliked long ago.

Now, I see HNers using that phrase to elicit sympathy for opinions that aren't
actually unpopular from time to time and that should stop, but sometimes you
have to say "now hear me out," so you don't get shouted down.

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StavrosK
I've found that saying "I'll get downvoted for this" primes people to accept a
dissenting opinion, and reminds them to not be so susceptible to groupthink.

It's the same as "Why are you downvoting the parent? He makes a good point."
when the point is fair, but unpopular. It usually leads to an upwards
correction.

~~~
raganwald
I’ve also found that ad hominem abuse is officially discouraged, but in
practice is very effective at winning an argument. Alas, none of this changes
the fact that it is noise and not signal.

In my experience, if a comment is unpopular and gets some downvotes,
eventually someone will reply, the author will retort effectively, and then
votes will swing the other way as people reading the thread cotton on to the
idea that it’s a good point even if it’s unpopular.

Have a little patience. Things will work themselves out, and even if they
don’t, why be so invested in points that you need to spend a lot of time
strategizing and engaging in rhetorical devices?

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clintjhill
This feels similar to the advice I give my kids. When they get into
circumstances where fighting feels like an option, I remind them to "use their
words". I try to emphasize that not everyone they meet will "use their words"
and that the smarter person should.

The down vote seems similar to me. Instead of down voting, try using your
words. And when you're down voted, use your words. A down vote is a lost
opportunity to extend the argument. It's an absolute with no explanation in of
itself. In my opinion - worthless.

------
kenjackson
In general I wouldn't mind downvoting, except for the fact that the text gets
lighter as you go below zero. I know I often skip over such text, not because
I know its been downvoted, but it gets much harder to read (although on
occassion I'll highlight it to make it easier to read).

If we got rid of the font effect and maybe did something like just put the
karma score for comments below one, I would be _almost_ completely indifferent
to downvotes.

~~~
demallien
The strong tendency to downvote ad-hominen / abusive comments on HN has really
improved my ability to write comments that are informative and non-
inflammatory. That's the good news.

The bad news is that the comments that I make that get lots of votes tend to
be on bike-shedding topics - things that everyone has an opinion on, such as
sexual harrassment in the community, or military toys, or HN meta-discussions.
Posts that I consider authoritive (and there _are_ _some_ subjects on which I
can talk authoritively!) rarely get many points, typically just 3 or 4. In my
opinion, it is this tendency that drives the reddit-isation of social news
sites.

So, how can we keep the good effects of points (keeping the tone polite), and
get rid of the bike-shedding? Well, personally I think it would be good if you
got a point for each comment/subcomment made off of your comment. Comments can
be flagged with a category:inflammatory/abusive/off-topic. Each flag loses you
a point. Points are only visible to the author of a comment. Flag categories
are tracked separately so that the author of a comment can see if they are
getting flagged for being off-topic, or poor tone, or whatever.

I would like to be able to say that we shouldn't care about points, but they
really have helped me in making my posts more informative and less
inflammatory, so I think they do have some benefit. It's just that the current
system has some negative unintended consequences...

~~~
yid
Social news voting reflects the opinions of the masses. A specialist's
authoritative, reasoned opinion is unlikely to be recognized as such, unless
it happens to go along with the momentum of public opinion. It's hardly a
problem unique to social news -- see Wikipedia, general elections, cable news
commentary, prediction market failures, etc.

When everyone's vote counts the same, the most popular opinion wins.

------
rwmj
Slashdot's moderation system got this almost right. Instead of up and down
votes, you have to choose from categories:

\- offtopic \- flamebait \- troll \- redundant \- insightful \- interesting \-
informative

and unfortunately two final categories which are misused as up/downvotes
("underrated" and "overrated").

Although people can use some of those as proxies for up/downvote, they don't
tend to, and you can see that they don't in meta-moderation.

------
wccrawford
I'm probably going to get downvoted for this, but...

He's wrong. It's a defense against the situation that already exists, not
something that is creating the situation. That statement actually DOES make
people pause and think about why they are downvoting.

Don't blame the player, blame the game.

(I was going to add a disclaimer that I didn't really expect downvotes, but
the statement now seems like trolling and I DO expect downvotes... But with
this disclaimer I don't again. It's all very confusing.)

~~~
mechanical_fish
[removes coin from pocket]

[flips coin: heads]

Okay, I won't downvote you this time. Please, do not tease Two-Face again.

And if you feel the need to deploy "defense" against downvotes, you are either
saying things that don't need to be said, or you are being needlessly
defensive and thereby undermining your own point. If what you're saying isn't
worth potentially being downvoted for, delete it.

The _impulse_ to write "I'm probably going to get downvoted for this" can
actually be quite healthy. When you find yourself typing that sentence, it's
your subconscious telling you that you need to change something. Most likely,
your subconscious is telling you to delete the comment and step away from the
keyboard for several hours. Or, save the comment to an offline buffer where it
can be recovered by future archaeologists. Or, write a different comment. Or,
rephrase the comment. Or: Read the comment, take a deep breath, grow some
courage, delete the disclaimer, and press Reply.

~~~
Shenglong
_if you feel the need to deploy "defense" against downvotes, you are either
saying things that don't need to be said, or you are being needlessly
defensive and thereby undermining your own point._

The problem is that the majority of the voting community on HN tends to think
a certain way. When I first joined, I went through several spurts of "why did
I get downvoted for this?" I wasn't trolling, and I was being constructive.
However, my opinions differed greatly on those subjects. I haven't really been
downvoted much recently, and I'm pretty sure it's because I'm subconsciously
conforming to the culture/groupthink.

If you want a specific example: just about anything in favor of increased
government control will result in downvotes, regardless of the arguments
presented. You could win a policy debate with a given argument, and still have
it down voted here because people don't agree with it.

~~~
raganwald
It is lamentable that comments receive downvotes for taking an unpopulr
position, however that does not change the fact that starting a comment with a
meta-discussion about its unpopularity weakens the argument being presented
and is off-topic.

~~~
Shenglong
No, I agree with you; I was just trying to clarify the thought behind doing
it.

------
Graumis
IMHO, too much emphasis is placed on making points. Consider that the success
of science is more due to its reliance on the scientific method than the
brilliance of its theoreticians. I believe that the process by which a
conclusion is reached is more important than the conclusion itself. There is
entirely too little attention payed to error management.

------
tomthought
Maybe there could be two parallel comments sections: one for commentary on the
subject, and one for meta-commentary.

~~~
raganwald
I’ve always liked this idea, especially if moderators could move comments into
the “meta-“ section.

------
rokhayakebe
You should have applied your advise to your post. There was a lot of
unnecessary ornaments around your point.

~~~
raganwald
Great advice, thank you.

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florianfeder
What about phrases like "In opinion..." or even the simple "I think..."?
Clearly whatever you say is what you think and is obviously your opinion. No
need for those phrases. It strikes me that they are meant as signs of respect
for the other discussion participants. They indicate that you will respect
other opinions.

