

Fire Me, I Beg You - robbiea
http://robbieabed.com/fire-me-i-beg-you/

======
nhashem
This is actually a great mental exercise for determining if you're
fundamentally unhappy at your current job. Just try and imagine your boss
calling into a meeting like the one the OP describes and giving you some sort
of, "your work has been good, but unfortunately we have to make some changes,
and this will be your last day" speech, and imagine how you would feel.

If your reaction is something along the lines of relief, then you are
_fundamentally unhappy at your job._ You have not only concluded that it is
not a good situation, but that the situation is incapable of improving. It's
likely only artificial mental restraints keep you from doing anything about it
("oh man I may have to move, moving is annoying... and I guess I get paid
pretty well, most of my friends are making half what I do... and my boss said
some things would change, although he said that months ago...") and those
restraints _aren't even that strong,_ otherwise you wouldn't be relieved if
you got laid off.

~~~
baddox
I'm not sure if that mental exercise is something I would trust for myself.
I'm extremely satisfied with my job, but when I run through the exercise of
imagining myself getting fired, there's a reflexive twinge of _excitement_
about what I would do if I were immediately thrown into such a scenario.

I don't think that I could conclude form this that I'm "secretly unhappy" with
my job. I think it's my innate longing for wayfaring adventure, even unwise
and irresponsible adventure, that I constantly have to reign in to keep myself
productive. It's _excitement_ I imagine feeling, not _relief_ , and in reality
I'm sure anxiety would accompany (even drown out) the excitement.

~~~
kaens
The most important thing, of course, is knowing yourself.

I mean, I have that same twinge about a lot of things, and I had identified it
as something I need to evaluate instead of acting on immediately. This lead to
me sticking in a position _way too long_ (I actually only recently resigned),
and becoming utterly miserable.

The line is fuzzy, but there was definitely a point at my last position where
I would have been premature in leaving. I would say, however, that the
appropriate point to leave would have been right around the time when _relief_
would have been my primary reaction to being let go.

If you haven't been in that situation, it's a bit hard to relate the feeling,
but it's definitely it's own class of "positive", not like the "excitement of
reacting to the immediate and having to think on ones feet" feeling at all.

I personally think that the biggest problem with this approach is that you
have to remember to do it. The "fundamentally unhappy" situations tend to
sneak up on you as you get into that weird cycle of going to work and doing
the dance being prioritized higher up on the list than your long-term mental
health. It's hard to stay in the moment.

------
droithomme
For competent people, getting fired is awesome as it always means a big pay
raise.

At most jobs I carry a letter of resignation with me at all times, ready to be
handed over at any moment. This practice really helps take the edge off of
many situations, since I don't see any situation as anything I have to put up
with, which seriously reduces the angst and depression that I encountered from
feelings of futility and hopelessness from "situations beyond my control"
before I adopted the practice. Now I know that all situations are under my
control as far as my own choice to be involved at all is concerned, and
likewise, others are responsible for their own decisions and happiness.

~~~
javert
_For competent people, getting fired is awesome as it always means a big pay
raise._

Can you explain this?

~~~
Lazare
Sure.

When you are hired, you can negotiate a salary $X based on your skills, the
company's needs, the job market, and a whole host of factors.

At each pay review period (or however your firm does it) thereafter you may
get a salary increase of Y%. The realities of corporate politics, management,
social dynamics, etc. say that the frequency of the review (or if you even get
one) is mostly out of your control. Further, the amount of the increase may
have little to do with you; maybe there's "no room in the budget for increases
this quarter", or maybe your manager is giving you poor evaluations to try and
keep you from being promoted out of his department thus reducing his
headcount. Finally, there is a force in almost every organization that says
that salary should be based on _seniority_ not merit. There may be pay grades,
or salary caps, and there is almost always some limit on the size of the raise
any person can get without a top exec signing off on it. I could go on. :)

Meanwhile, you (hopefully!) have more knowledge and skills than when you were
hired; you certainly have more experience. After a few years, you are almost
certainly worth a lot more than when you were hired. (If the job market has
improved since you were hired, this goes triple.)

The end result is that, for most people, your salary represents a pretty good
snapshot of your "worth" when you are hired, but every quarter thereafter it
diverges. Changing jobs periodically lets the good employees "lock in" that
extra value. (Meanwhile the poor employees will do their utmost to stay, as
they know they may not deserve all of the raises they've received. This is but
one of many reasons why organizational performance trends downwards over
time.)

You'd think that you could just renogotiate with your current employer. "Hey,
I know I was only worth $60k when you hired me, but I'm now an expert on X, Y,
and Z, and the job market is really hot right now. I know you've upped my
salary to $90k, but you'd have to pay over $140k to replace me. Give me a
raise or I'll go next door and get $120k." Seems logical, but human nature
being what it is, this never works. Instead, you quit and go to work next door
for $120k, while one of their guys quits his $90k job and comes to work at
your old employer for $120k. Of course, both of you are now less productive
for the next 6 months as you learn new systems and a new codebase. It's silly,
but there you are.

~~~
jackpirate
_Instead, you quit and go to work next door for $120k, while one of their guys
quits his $90k job and comes to work at your old employer for $120k._

The key is that in this case, you quit. If you are actually fired for some
reason, then you will have a lot of explaining to do which could dramatically
reduce your market value. Even if you were fired for some stupid reason, like
racial discrimination, that's a lot of explaining you have to do that other
candidates do not.

~~~
Lazare
That's a good point. I believe the original comment was being a bit loose with
terminology, and not really making a distinction between being fired, being
encouraged to quit, being made redundant, etc. The fact that he also mentioned
a letter of resignation points that way too.

You're correct that there is a huge difference between being let go with good
references as part of a reorg of corporate strategy (or whatever_, and being
fired for sexually assaulting the cleaning staff. The former is little
impediment to finding a new job, while the latter is. (Well, unless you can
successfully threaten your old HR department with a wrongful dismissal suits
so that they will lie and cover for you. And oh yes, that happens[1].)

Context does matter, and that's worth pointing out.

[1]: Frequently, too. A short-sighted analysis says that you have two goals
when you discover a bad employee: 1) Get them OUT of your organization before
they do something that might make you liable and 2) Make sure they don't sue
you. A glowing letter of recommendation is cheap, and can help achieve both
goals. Often a small bribe - sorry, severance package - can be tossed in as
well to sweeten the deal. Of course, that will come around to bite you when
you end up hiring some other companies ambulatory menace on the strength of a
glowing-but-false letter of recommendation. _sigh_

------
jmjerlecki
Pretty good comment on that article, resonated with me:

"When you have to make a hard decision, flip a coin.

Why?

Because when that coin is in the air, you suddenly know what you're hoping
for."

~~~
zem
the idea is older than him, but piet hein put it into verse very nicely:

    
    
        A PSYCHOLOGICAL TIP
    
        Whenever you're called on to make up your mind,  
          and you're hampered by not having any,  
        the best way to solve the dilemma, you'll find,  
          is simply by spinning a penny.  
        No -- not so that chance shall decide the affair  
          while you're passively standing there moping;  
        but the moment the penny is up in the air,  
          you suddenly know what you're hoping.

------
webjprgm
Any advice for a guy with a risk-adverse wife and not enough money in the bank
to go the startup route, but who does secretly want to get fired? Also, the
company I work at is quite nice, it's just the job I'm doing isn't what I
love. But I don't know if I like large corporate life very well and I do know
that I like small company environment. Startup environment maybe (difference
between small vs. startup is urgency and energy).

My current manager convinced me, last time I asked, to stay through current
project completion. He gave me a raise and promised raving reviews. He also
says I should definitely stay in the company. So I have an easy career path. I
just don't know that I want it. Actually, I'm pretty sure I don't want it, but
I won't know that until I try the other way, I just don't have the money in
the bank to afford the other way.

Sorry about personal sidetracking. Great post, and certainly made me think
about my situation again. At the very least, the mindset of "Fire Me, I Beg
You" can be a great bargaining tool.

~~~
wildmXranat
Way to draw a detailed scenario to which, I unfortunately have no advise for.
Having said that, it resonates with a lot of what I hear in my personal
circles.

In your situation, I would talk to my wife. Assure her that my professional
life deserves a change and after which, follow through very carefully. First,
find out what it is I need to be happy. Is it money, distance to work,
workplace dynamic or maybe my own business. Itemising the collective of what
works for me, will give me a sense of following up with my goals. I can attack
them one at a time. I don't want to feel pressured to change based on any
findings, but I don't want to shelve them away as well. It's kind of like
making a pact with myself about a life-changing, 180 deg turnaround, and then
getting a sandwich,- and forgetting about it.

Once I have an idea of what and where I want to be, I'd start by being honest
with myself: can I pull it off. Baby step into it by setting aside minimal
amount of daily time to find out how I'll get it all done. For example, if my
path leads me to making my first mobile game, I'll go to the book store.
Research what kids games are easy to port and estimate my time. "Tic tac toe"
for instance would be a good first candidate. Do a shitty, but honest effort
to get something done. Rinse and repeat, but improve a bit with every
iteration. I would attempt to join online groups, find related groups on G+,
FB, etc. If I find myself loosing interest, re-evaluate if I really can keep
up with the expectations.

And then there's my current albeit hypothetical job. If above makes me happy
enough, why quit. If you still loathe it, reapply your spent time to looking
for new job and call a meeting for tomorrow at 8am with your boss.

------
xpose2000
I was in that position as well, and I had no choice but to quit my job. I even
got a 15k raise and that still wasn't enough. My old boss once said that more
money won't make you happy, it simply makes you less unhappy.

When you don't care anymore it's a sign that it's time to move on.

I work on my own start-up now. Sure I don't make as much, and I work odd
hours, but it's fulfilling.

~~~
emp_
I my case I do care a lot of what is being built, what are the expectations of
our customers and how happy they are, but I don't give a fuck to the people
working with me right now, I don't care about them -- are those you meant?

~~~
cydonian_monk
That's just a sign of a good work ethic. I'm a bit of the same - I've never
really cared for the corporate atmosphere where I work (or for being inside
all day), but I'll defend what I've built to the grave.

------
joaquin_win
I'm going through something similar, wish they fire me to be able to apply for
employment insurance (<http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/sc/ei/index.shtml>)
and "not work" (develop my own projects) for a while. But no, they love all
the whizzy automation that I've created and have saved them month's of work.

------
ja27
It's amazing that most bosses don't realize / don't care about the reaction
they'll get from sending a meeting invite like that. That's not a sign that
you're working for an A player.

~~~
tseabrooks
Yes. I'm currently at a small shop and when my boss scheduled my 90 day review
he realized he hand't mentioned there'd be such a thing so he walked over to
my office after scheduling it and said, "Hey, I don't want you to freak out
about the review... you're doing fine... we love your work.. we just wanna
talk about stuff in depth".

------
yangtheman
Oh, man. I was in almost exact same situation last week!

I also quit, about a week later, and I am so much happier. I really had to
think about whether this is something I want to do or this is the company
where I really want to work. Now I am free to explore many different options,
and plus, I can concentrate on finding what I want, rather than trying to
complete the tasks at work and look at the same time. It helps that I was able
to get small severance pay.

Kudos, though. It's certainly not easy to leave without anything lined up. It
wasn't an easy decision for me, either, when you have families to feed. But, I
am definitely happier with my decision.

It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything ~ Tyler
Durden

~~~
jczhang
I've done this before, but let me know how you feel in 2 weeks.

------
EREFUNDO
Since my team and I started working on our startup and build our product, I
actually began to like the fact that I hated my day job. It energized me to
work harder into getting our project launched and have people use it in the
real world. Finance is just not for me. I want to build and create
things...much more fulfilling!

------
WiseWeasel
If you've got no immediate prospects, and you can hold on a bit, you might try
waiting for your next evaluation, and when they ask what you see yourself
doing in five years, answer with something in a completely different industry.
Then, maybe you'll get laid off with a chance of collecting unemployment, so
you don't need to rush into another job that might not be right for you.

------
steveh73
She set up a meeting at 2am? And you were awake and checking your work email
at the time? You should have quit a long time before then.

------
jgmmo
Interesting perspective. I can certainly relate, in one of those positions at
this very moment...

~~~
stealthuser
I had the same exact feelings so ... I resigned last week. I am certainly
excited about the future :) !

~~~
rwg
All of the "if you're not happy and you know it, quit your job! _clap_ _clap_
" blog posts that make it onto Hacker News these days seem to whitewash or
ignore some unpleasant realities.

I gave notice at my job of ten years last week, and I'm about as unexcited
about the future as you can get. I've accumulated years of skill rot, self
doubt, health problems, and straight up depression. I live in a part of the
country with almost nothing in the way of a tech industry, so finding a better
job will probably require moving to a strange new place. Despite having two
years' gross in the bank and no debt, I constantly worry about ending up broke
and on the street.

Going from "miserably employed" to "somewhat less miserably unemployed" to
"happily employed" takes significantly more work than just walking away from a
job, but talking about that isn't the sort of material that gets the
pageviews.

~~~
MDCore
I know depression, and it makes you a cold, heartless realist. Yes, your
skills, your town and the job market are, unfortunately, as you have
described. But depression also makes you discount the positive. You have two
years gross in the bank! You could walk out of that job, party for twenty-
three months and then start to look for a job.

But you're not going to do that. You're going to take a few months holiday and
rest. Breathe. Get that fire back. If you go back to work now you'll just hate
your job again, and let down the nice people that hired you. Rather
convalesce, and then take some time once you're thinking less like a depressed
person to brush up on your skills, to see what the market is like in town now
that you feel hopeful, or what the best city to move to is.

A friend of mine quit his job with two years salary in the bank, and he's been
doing odd contract work. After a year he looks and behaves like a different
person. He's healthy, he smiles, he is engaging. You are burnt out, but it is
not the end of the road, it is the low point, and you have a great opportunity
to turn it around.

~~~
yajoe
I don't have a friend. I was that person just 6 months ago. I cannot agree
more with MDCore about taking time to rest and decompress. That said, one of
the ways you fully rest is having a plan. In my case I was fortunate enough to
have a job lined up as soon as I quit. But it's not necessary. Focus on the
plan. The plan could be "figure out what to do." The plan could be "do a start
up." Whatever it is, plan to rest for a few months. If future employers ask
about the gap, just say you were doing a start up, and use the start up to
sharpen your skills. Everyone gets the bubble is going on, and everyone you
would want to work for will understand.

The startup shouldn't be stressful. It shouldn't be about making money. It
should be something that you enjoy and that lets you return to yourself.

I am in a much, much better place now, and a big reason for that was rest. I
cannot emphasize it enough. It's much, much more important that you rest for a
few months than worry about what's next. Give yourself permission to do so.

(Related post, it took 5 months just to write about my experience:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3704261>)

~~~
MDCore
Thanks for pointing out that having a plan can reduce stress. I'm not one for
plans myself, so I didn't think to mention it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "I was burnt out and took a
six month holiday." That tells me that one has some insight into themselves
and has made some effort towards self-development. But I see acknowledging
weakness as a sign of strength; others might not take that approach.

------
EREFUNDO
If getting a raise or promotion does not motivate you anymore then you should
plan your exit strategy soon. You were born to be an entrepreneur. Simple as
that....

------
guelo
It's better to be fired if you've been there a while. You can then collect
unemployment for a few months and be really picky. I've actually never been
fired but have felt like a sucker when a colleague was fired at the same time
I quit and he was getting unemployment while I had nothing. Though you
probably need some solid references to make up for a firing.

------
alexlumley
Very scary to think of how long you can go in life doing something that you
don't want to do, if you never think about what you secretly wished happend.
SHIVERS.

------
dstywho
What if your boss reads Hacker News?...Success!

~~~
andrewflnr
They did wait to post it until they had already quit.

------
michaelochurch
Any manager who uses "catch up" for a firing meeting is just a bad person.

You don't put a firing meeting on the calendar. Why would you?

The bad managers make messes for people like OP's manager, who really was
working at face value.

------
aen
Resonates with me.

------
fogol
hmm, this story has more to it than it says: no boss of mine ever sent me
meeting invite at 2am and for next morning. Other games afoot there, and it
might explain why he dreaded his workplace.

