

Ask YC: Intact Medieval Towns? - pg

I'm going on vacation soon and I'd like to visit some 
intact medieval towns.  I'm looking for places like 
Toledo, Venice, and Siena that were important towns in 
1200 but backwaters by 1700, and thus weren't overwritten.   
Can anyone suggest more like that?<p>(Even though this is a personal request, I feel ok 
submitting it to news.yc, because visiting "fossil" 
towns is one of the best ways I know to understand 
history.)<p>Thanks in advance!
======
jwilliams
I just visited Krakow in Poland - My impression of Poland before going was
very biased - I still locked into a communist era view of Poland. When I
arrived I was just stunned at how beautiful the place was.

Fits the bill reasonably well. Very prominent in earlier history, but fell out
of prominence in 1600. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krakow>

Despite auschwitz being down the road it escaped bombing in WWII - and whilst
the communist era didn't help, recent restoration efforts are simply stunning.
Amazing amount of fantastic architecture in a very compact town. The town
centre, including the castle is UNESCO listed.

It's one of the nicer places I've been to in Europe. Also.. It's not quite a
prime target on the tourist radar yet - which can be a big plus.

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davidw
Italy is littered with them, as I suspect you may already know. What size
towns are you looking for? The weather i n Italy in September/October is often
still pretty nice, too, compared with the more northerly portions of Europe.

\- Lucca is a good one, as someone mentioned below.

\- Verona has a great mix of stuff, from the Roman Arena (which is very
impressive) to the Scaligeri castle, to other things dating from the Venetian
era.

\- In the Veneto, Monselice and Montagnana are smaller towns that are worth
about half a day each. You could combine those with some touring around the
Colli Euganei. Arqua Petrarca is a cute little town famous for being the final
resting place of Petrarch, and a pleasant place in its own right. In terms of
history, Monselice had its high point when it was the local center of power
for the Lombards - Padova fell along with the Roman empire. Montagnana, along
with Cittadella to the north of Padova, was an outpost against neighboring
city states. To this day, the province of Padova includes Montagnana and
Cittadella, whereas Treviso's own outpost, Castelfranco, delimits the edge of
that province.

<http://www.welton.it/photos/monselice/>

<http://www.welton.it/photos/colli_euganei/>

\- Central Italy is filling up with tourists: Umbria and Le Marche are a bit
more off the beaten path. Perugia is a wonderful town where I have good
memories, Urbino is good too, although it's kind of small. San Marino is
someplace I've never visited, but it has been pretty much by definition left
alone over the years (thus its independence). The whole area has been 'passed
over', s you're quite likely to discover your own favorite, off the beaten
places by renting a car and exploring, if that's your idea of a good time.

\- I don't know southern Italy quite so well, but I had a great time visiting
my friend Salvatore in Ragusa - the old part of that city is impressive.

<http://www.welton.it/photos/ragusa/>

Let's see... I don't know so much about Austria, but Innsbruck is ok for a day
(much more if you like outdoor sports like hiking), and Salzburg has a lot to
see and is relatively well preserved. Hall in Tirol is worth an afternoon, and
in the middle ages was more important than Innsbruck. They minted coins from
the nearby silver mine there until the whole enterprise collapsed as 'cheap'
silver from the new world put them and the mine out of business.

I could probably write a book about Italy, email me know if you have any more
questions. Depending on my availability, I'd be happy to show you, or anyone
else from this site, around the Padova area, where my wife's family is from,
or at the very least put you in contact with friends down there. Of course,
should anyone stop by Innsbruck, I'm always happy to meet hacker/startup
types... I'm pretty lonely here from that point of view.

Edit: Damn... now I miss Italy...

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mechanical_fish
I went to Rothenburg ob der Tauber:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothenburg_ob_der_Tauber>

Not exactly off the beaten path today -- it's been Tourist Central since the
1880s -- but it was off the beaten path for hundreds of years before that,
which is the important part.

Stay overnight. Many tourists don't, which makes it a good way to avoid some
of them. Wandering around the corners of medieval buildings near dusk makes
the whole vibe even more fun.

I also can't argue with Bruges, Belgium, which has the advantage of having
actual non-tourist-industry inhabitants. Plus, Belgian beer! (Not that Bavaria
is lacking in the beer department.)

~~~
alex_c
Another vote here for Rothenburg. It is perhaps even more "medieval" than
Siena (though to be fair, I spent two days in Rothenburg, and only an
afternoon in Siena).

The downside is that it is very tourist-y. It almost seemed like the only
things there were hotels, museums, and gift shops.

The upside is that it still feels authentic. I picked my hotel pretty much
just based on price and availability, and it was charming - you can even see
it in random pictures like this one:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Street_in_Rothenburg.JPG> (I forget the
name, but it's the one with the bell sign). My friends stayed at a different
hotel, and had the same experience.

Walking along the walls at night can be an amazing experience - it had rained
earlier, it was foggy, street lights reflected off the cobblestones, and no
tourists in sight... it felt like we were transported to a different century.

As for taverns, I would recommend Zur Höll (meaning "Hell"), it's supposed to
be over 1000 years old - and if you manage to get the table in the basement
(which is actually a giant bellows), that claim seems quite believable.

<http://www.romanticroad.com/hoell/english/dine.htm>

~~~
omakase
Rothenburg, Siena, and San Gimignano are all worth visiting. There are many
nice hotels outside the walls of Rothenburg.

Make sure you visit the museums of criminology (aka torture museums) in these
towns/

------
herdrick
I think Estonia's old Hanse town, Tallin (Reval) fits. Between 1549 and 1625
its church was the tallest building in the world (and its peak height wouldn't
be exceeded until 1884!. Very interesting table here:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=294496> ). Wikipedia has good historical
population numbers for the town:

Year . . . . Population

1372 . . . . 3,250

1772 . . . . 6,954

But I've haven't visited yet, so I'm not sure.

~~~
herdrick
A good algorithim would be to take a list of Hanse towns and subtract the ones
you've heard of. The rest are backwaters that were previously important.

~~~
mtts
Good suggestion.

However, research the ones that are left before you spend a day travelling to
one of them, as chances are it'll be pretty but very, very small (thinking of
Doesburg and Bronkhorst, for example).

------
raganwald
Bruges, Belgium:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruges>

~~~
randomwalker
I would also suggest Ghent, Belgium.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghent>

"Much of the city's medieval architecture remains intact and is remarkably
well preserved and restored. Its center is the largest carfree area in
Belgium."

I was there last month, it was pretty nifty.

Bruges is super-touristy, Ghent slightly less so. You should try to check out
a non-touristy town as well, that nevertheless has a significant amount of
medieval architecture. Examples: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechelen>,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuven>

~~~
wlievens
Add Lier (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lier,_Belgium>) to that. It's a bit
like Brughes, but way smaller.

(disclosure: I practically live there)

------
delano
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roermond> (Netherlands)

Julius Caesar called it Villa Optima. It was destroyed in 1213 and rebuilt by
1232. It was occupied by the Romans, France, Austria, Germany, among others
over the years. There was also some damage in WWII but despite all that the
city is mostly intact.

And don't be fooled by the modern convenience of the Outlet Mall (which is
beyond the remnants of the old city wall). Most of the shoppers are German
(not that there's anything wrong with that) and incidentally there are several
short-haul bike routes into Germany. There's a bike shop next to the train
station and there are a few cute German towns within 20km.

------
dhyasama
Dubrovnik, Croatia

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubrovnik>

~~~
pelle
Split, Croatia is also great it's actually a medieval city built inside a
Roman palace: <http://flickr.com/photos/pelle/sets/72157604400174148/>

Close by is the island of Hvar, which is also pretty amazing. It was built by
the Venetians as a trading outpost:
<http://flickr.com/photos/pelle/sets/72157604497939272/>

A great resource for someone wanting to learn about how these kinds of places
help mold our modern business world, I recommend Nick Szabo's blog
Unenumerated. See this post about Genoa for example:

<http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2006/10/genoa.html>

------
edu
Hi, I recommend that you visit Montblanc, in Tarragona (Spain), near
Barcelona: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montblanc,_Tarragona>

More to the north, near the Coast (if you also want some beach) there is Pals:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pals>

Also, in France but also pretty near to Barcelona you can visit Carcassonne
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcassonne>

Finally, but not completely intact, the Barri Gòtic in Barcelona may interest
you: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barri_Gòtic>

If you ever com here, and need anything don't hesitate to drop a mail.

~~~
adnam
Carcasonne has a strange fortified city which looks medieval but was actually
built in the mid 1800s. If you drive from there towards Andorra you come
accross lots of old medieval villages with castles, such as this one in Foix:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Foix>

Aachen in Germany should probably be on the list - it was once the centre of
Charlemagne's empire, but today it has been eclipsed by nearby Cologne and
Bonn. It was bombed pretty badly during the war but the town hall and
cathedral survived intact.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aachen>

~~~
baha_man
Carcassonne was _restored_ in the second half of the 19th century, see the
wikipedia article above.

------
reitzensteinm
Do you mind posting your short list when you figure it out? I had my first
holiday around Europe recently, mainly sticking to the capital cities except
for Bavaria, and next time I'd like to explore off the beaten track a lot
more. All the places mentioned here are going right into my ideas for next
time file.

------
jsmcgd
Every time I go to the south of France on holiday (I'm British) I'm always
struck how many little intact medieval towns and villages there are. I'd
recommend just hiring a car and start roaming about (or Train, the French do
trains really well). You'll be tripping over them.

~~~
pg
That's exactly what I'm planning to do, but I'm hoping to make the process
less random.

~~~
davidw
Maybe hire a guide? This guy, a tour guide in Tuscany, wrote some books make
for light but entertaining reading:

[http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-
url?_encodin...](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-
url?_encoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Dario%20Castagno)

I think there's something to be said for simply wandering though (perhaps
armed with some good books), especially seeing as how there is way more
history and stuff to see in a place like Italy or France than you could
possibly hope to absorb over a few weeks. It's "fractal", too: you can look at
the big ticket items, like wars, conquests of this or that country, but you
can also get into the local goings on, which are often quite interesting in
their own right.

For instance, one of my favorite things in Padova is the University Tour,
where they have a lectern that Galileo's students built for him. It's awful
looking, because they were wealthy kids, not the sons of craftsmen, so they
mangled it pretty thoroughly. They wanted to make it themselves though, rather
than commission it, as a sign of dedication.

------
robg
Krupa and I recently enjoyed traveling through the Abruzzo region of central
Italy which has many more hill towns. Wish we had gotten to Siena though!

We especially enjoyed Civitella del Tronto:
<http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civitella_del_Tronto>

and the surrounding area includes pretty sweet hikes including one that visits
a cave (Grotte Sant'Angelo) with documented religious uses back to BC times.

------
bd
Salamanca is like Toledo, just bigger and nicer:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salamanca>

Also a lot of interesting places at "World Heritage Sites" list:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_Europe)

------
tomh
Regensburg, Germany: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regensburg>

I have friends who live there and they like it a lot. Especially cool during
the Christmas festivals, lots of markets with mulled wine and decorations for
sale.

------
jwilliams
If you do go to Siena, try and go to the Il Palio.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palio_di_Siena>

Each district of Siena has a horse in a (quite violent) race around the
square.

Whilst it's generally a massive attraction for tourists the locals take it
_very seriously_ and it's not just a tourist attraction at all. After the race
the winning district put out their banners and have a massive party.

------
ra
Some suggestions, Last year we spent some time in Romania. Romania has Sibiu,
Timisoara, Brasov, Sighisoara ... all very cool medieval towns. Rasnov and
Sighisoara are both hilltop fort villages.

Also, you might also be interested in Lviv, Ukraine.

Have fun!

~~~
rgrieselhuber
I second this. Romania was quite beautiful.

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musiciangames
If you get to the South of France, look at Aigues Mortes <http://www.ot-
aiguesmortes.fr/UK/History.htm>

Centrally, Tours and Troyes are gorgeous, as is Orleans.

Besancon in the East is very attractive, but more recent battlements.

In the North, you get a panorama over all of the Flanders plain from the
battlements of Cassel, just as the generals did in the Great War.

The great thing with France is that nearly every town has an unspoilt centre;
the development has been kept to the environs.

Enjoy your visit.

~~~
musiciangames
Also, the tapestry of the apocalypse in Angers castle is staggering.

And when visiting French towns, they all have a 'petit train' which takes you
around the sights for a small cost; I like to do that before deciding where to
explore on foot.

------
abstractwater
I highly recommend Gubbio in Umbria (Italy).

Gubbio was very important between 1000-1300 when it was independent. After
that its decline started, and that's probably what kept the town small and
contained. I still remember walking inside Gubbio and how it felt so...
medieval and different from other Italian towns. I grew up in a small Italian
medieval town but Gubbio is quite unique.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gubbio>

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antirez
You may want to try "Volterra" (Toscana) and "Erice" (Sicilia).

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shawndrost
Central Prague is like that, if somewhat overrun by tourism. I accidentally
arrived at predawn and wandered around as the light came in -- highly
recommended.

~~~
wheels
Prague is beautiful, but the architecture there for the most part is a few
centuries post-medieval.

~~~
david927
You're right, but Prague is one of the few cities where you can find great
examples of every architectural style from medieval up to modern.

Try Ceske Krumlov, a small town to the south, for something more medieval.

------
jon_dahl
If you're in the area, there are some great exhibits at the German History
Museum in Berlin, including exact (scaled down) replicas of medieval cities,
with information about different areas of town. Very different than walking
around town, but it is interesting to see what a medieval city looked like
from the top.

Otherwise, I can vouch for Bruges, Siena, and Regensburg.

------
keninglis
Lucca, Tuscany - starting to get a bit touristy but a nice mixture of Roman,
mediaeval with intact city walls that you can walk round.

------
sanj
I loved visiting Vinci, Italy. It has a lovely little museum with the works of
its most famous son.

Montepulciano was amazing as well, but perhaps falls under the Siena category.

Cuzco, Peru -- at least the central core -- may be an example as well. As
would other Inca settlements.

------
lutorm
Visby on Gotland, the big Swedish island in the Baltic, is pretty cool,
especially during medieval week.

~~~
rvirding
Yes, definitely see Visby if you can: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visby>

------
3KWA
Entrevaux, France - <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrevaux> for something
different. Old Vauban fortress in a small village in the southern alps of
France.

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bnolan
I've tagged a bunch of the ones mentioned on weheartplaces:

<http://www.weheartplaces.com/tags/medieval>

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mtts
Tournai, Belgium. The inner town is almost entirely medieval (and on the
Unesco list). Somewhat less spectacular but still fine is nearby Kortrijk.

------
skalpelis
Orvieto, Italy: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orvieto>

------
mishmax
Fez, Morocco -- I believe the UN marked it as the oldest intact and thriving
medieval city in the world.

------
dcurtis
Rothenburg, Germany is a really cool place. Might want to check it out.

------
mattmaroon
This is off-topic :)

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unonium
cesky krumlov, czech republic

~~~
rgrieselhuber
Noooo! Don't tell people about this town. I don't want it Prague-ified.

~~~
david927
It already is getting there.

------
furiouslol
transylvania, romania

~~~
ovi256
Don't forget Transylvania is a region, not a town. Nice medieval towns are:
Sighisoara, Sibiu, Brasov. One could try the Medieval villages, even better
preserved than towns, with their fortification perimeter walls, fortified
churches (oh yes) etc. Really beautiful, out of this world places.

Full disclosure: I'm from Arad, right near the historic region of
Transylvania, Romania. Quite biased, even after living for years in Spain and
France.

------
netcan
New Book?

