
A laptop ban would be a disruptive privacy risk - steven
https://backchannel.com/what-to-do-if-the-laptop-ban-goes-global-120295a957a4
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ColinWright
I made this comment elsewhere[0], but I'll repeat it here:

I recently took a flight from Belgrade via Istanbul to Birmingham (UK). Hand
luggage only, no checked luggage.

At Istanbul they took my laptop from me, gave me a receipt, packed it in
bubble-wrap, put that in a suitcase with lots of other bubble-wrapped laptops,
and put it in the hold.

Yes, I got it back in the baggage reclaim area, but it was cold - _seriously_
cold - I didn't dare turn it on for several hours to let the disk warm up
slowly.

This is making international travel a complete crap-shoot.

Take precautions people. Backup your data, don't travel with your valuable
laptop.

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14436259](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14436259)

~~~
gizmo385
Is there legit in harm in starting a very cold computer? I've actually never
heard that before and it would be a good thing to keep in mind if so.

~~~
crististm
Cold things tend to condensate water vapours when brought in warm rooms.

~~~
8note
but by that point, the moment it's in the airport again, it's toast

~~~
ColinWright
The problem is getting airflow through the system. If there's no turnover of
the air then the problem is minute.

If you turn it on then warm, moist air is drawn into the cold chassis, and
that's when the problems happen. If you _don 't_ turn it on then the air that
was always in it it still there, and the problem is minimised.

So if it's extremely cold, don't turn it on.

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madaxe_again
It's not only a privacy risk, it's a _fire_ risk, if li-ion batteries are put
in the hold.

Sadly, if they do roll out a hand-luggage ban on electronics, I can see it
becoming a complete ban due to existing regulations (e.g. EU) that prohibit
the checking of li-ion batteries due to the fire risk.

I now feel like something of a tit for pointing out that security theatre is
ridiculous while one is allowed to carry li-ion/lipo batteries on one's
person, as you could just fold your iPhone in half using a tray table as a
lever, and then use the ensuing white hot long lasting flame for whatever
nefarious purpose, as they now appear to be closing this window.

If one is outright banned from transporting electronics it will be chaos -
will I need to buy a new phone in every location I fly to? What about business
travellers - are we going to see a resurgence in portable manual typewriters,
and flights sounding like a hailstorm?

I am so sick of this idiocy.

~~~
amelius
Solution: batteries should be removable from the laptop. And there should be
battery-exchange points at airports where people can leave their batteries in
exchange for a token which they can use to get another battery at the
destination airport.

~~~
syrrim
Hardly a solution. People are expecting to be able to _use_ their electronic
devices while in-flight. Removing the battery would remove that capability.

~~~
amelius
Solution: on-flight power outlets.

~~~
panzagl
Or bring a book.

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white-flame
Another security risk that the article doesn't really get explicit about is
tampering of your laptop to install [hardware] keyloggers and such. Just
because it's in bubble wrap or whatever doesn't mean the authorities can't
pick it out and do what they want with it.

As far as mitigation of all this paranoia and destruction of reasonable social
& business order, I hope group charter flights become more widespread &
affordable, avoiding all the bulk passenger plane nonsense.

~~~
stinkytaco
What is a group charter flight? It sounds like a euphemism for passenger
plane.

~~~
subway
Scheduled services and Charter services operate under entirely different
regulations (in the US, anyway). Part 135 carriers don't have to force all the
nonsense on their passengers that Part 121 carriers do.

~~~
pdelbarba
I prefer part 91 but there's some serious overhead there. Also,
intercontinental travel is kinda hard.

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smileysteve
It's a risk of delivery too. The recent outages at Airlines (Delta/United etc)
left travelers without their bags for days.

If I'm a business consulting company, airlines are no longer reliable enough
to ship my employees.

~~~
stinkytaco
> If I'm a business consulting company, airlines are no longer reliable enough
> to ship my employees.

Is that really true? What percentage of flights do you think actually reach
this level of outage? I'm not saying it can't reach that level and I don't
know the tolerance of your business, but it seems like we're still talking in
very small percentages here.

~~~
Macha
So of the 8 return flights I've taken in the last 3 years, two have had some
form of luggage delay. One for 3 days, going from Dublin to Baltimore via
British airways, and one for 1 day, arriving back in Ireland via American.

So in my experience, that's a 12.5% rate for major delays, and a 25% rate for
any delays.

~~~
EpicEng
Yet in the dozens that I've taken in the last year, I've had exactly zero. I
don't think either statistic reflects reality.

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hobarrera
This is even worse if travelling from countries like Argentina. Here everybody
knows they people who handle checked luggage will steal anything of values.
It's even considered risky to leave nice-looking shoes in there. Last time my
dad travelled they took his shoes and a pack of chocolates from it.

I'm sure other not-so-developed countries have it quite similar (eg: several
in Latinamerica and probably Africa).

Checking in a laptop? Anybody would laugh in your face for suggesting it. Not
sure how we're gonna start handling travelling to the US.

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aaomidi
Does someone have a nice guide to do full disk encryption, and other
recommendations so that we can at least be a little certain our data isn't
being tampered with?

~~~
rm_-rf_slash
Might make more sense to buy a cheap laptop for travel and keep it separate
from your work and personal life as much as you can.

At least that way you can't be accused of hiding anything if you literally
have nothing to hide - at least at the airport.

~~~
technofiend
If you live in linux-land and assuming bandwidth is not an issue, then it's
trivial to move to a VDI solution. See Apache Guacamole for an excellent
example of web-enabling remote desktop access.

------
hedora
Fly to Vancouver, bus/uber to Seattle, fly to US destination?

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wehadfun
Probably the best solution is those using usb drives and portable software for
data

~~~
Jach
Depends. Do you still trust them with your laptop and that nothing bad will
happen when you plug your data back in? Or do you just travel with your data
and rely on using a machine at the other end? In that case, with USB 3 and
especially Type C getting more and more traction, is it really absurd to just
boot from an external disk/flash stick everywhere so you don't have to rely on
the other end's OS? The major problem with that though is MS and Apple aren't
especially friendly to the hardware changing underneath them. So the
alternative then if you have to use them is probably having your OS in the
cloud, and hope your wallet is full and your network good.

~~~
wehadfun
Yes I would suggest the OS be on it as well

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fudged71
Microsoft Surface - does it count as a tablet or a laptop to the TSA?

I will be travelling a lot between the US and Canada, so need to decide
between Surface or Macbook.

~~~
chiph
It may depend on the airport. When I flew last Christmas, the Austin airport
had a sign exempting the Surface Pro from being put in a separate bin (you
could leave it in your backpack), which implies they thought it was less
risky.

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anotherevan
Methinks there's a opportunity for a booming phone and laptop rental business
at airports...

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awinter-py
what's my market play for the upcoming decline in business travel & sales pop
in productivity phablet hardware & software?

~~~
stinkytaco
Continuum, I guess. Or Ubuntu Phone... wait.

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crb002
It should only be a battery ban.

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rrggrr
And airlines won't profile and interview as does EL AL because why?

~~~
MengerSponge
Because profiling is profoundly counterproductive. The vast majority of
passengers are not interested in murder or mayhem, and will report suspicious
behavior. If you antagonize one class of people, you reduce their willingness,
as a group, to cooperate with authorities.

Also, because terrorists are rare and are not exclusively members of any one
profile, you are more likely to miss one if you shift focus onto one group in
particular.

[http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/02/02/0813202106.abst...](http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/02/02/0813202106.abstract)

~~~
Banthum
"If you antagonize one class of people, you reduce their willingness, as a
group, to cooperate with authorities."

The question is whether this effect is stronger or weaker than the gains you
get from profiling.

The middle solution: Anti-profiling. It's not about going after certain
groups, it's about ignoring certain groups that are harmless.

We don't need to focus on: -70-year-old British grandmas -4-year-old children
-Chinese women -etc.

Obviously this doesn't preclude someone slipping something into their bag
without their knowledge, so bags would still have to be checked.

But at the end of the day, there's a lot of simple things you could do to make
the whole process faster and easier for everyone, including 23-year-old Arab
men with congenital overactive sweat glands.

~~~
noir_lord
> The middle solution: Anti-profiling. It's not about going after certain
> groups, it's about ignoring certain groups that are harmless.

That is still profiling.

Given four groups, A,B,C,D with a property of dangerous/not dangerous.

If I say only A,B and D are dangerous then I'm saying C is not dangerous.

If I say only C isn't dangerous then I'm saying A,B and D _are_ dangerous.

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lxpz
How common is this, and how can we expect it to evolve ?

This is the first time I hear of a laptop ban on internationnal flights. Any
informative links would be appreciated.

~~~
chiph
From May 11th:

[http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/11/news/laptop-ban-europe-
trump...](http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/11/news/laptop-ban-europe-
trump/index.html)

------
panzagl
Why is everyone so dismissive of the bomb threat? I can guarantee everyone
involved (airlines, TSA, etc) would just as soon you keep your laptop rather
than having to deal with the hassle of scanning, wrapping, loading, and
delivering them.

~~~
antognini
If terrorists decided to put bombs in laptops, it's not clear (to me at least)
how putting them in the hold would make anyone safer. I mean, maybe someone in
the cabin could put it right up against the side of the plane and make it more
likely to blow a hole in it, as a Somalian bomber did in 2016. But it's not
obvious to me that something like that wouldn't be noticed by the other
passengers and stopped before any serious damage was done (like with the
underwear bomber).

At any rate, the burden of proof rests on the administration to show that the
threat is real, not imagined, and that the proposed restrictions are narrowly
tailored to prevent the threat. None of this has happened yet.

~~~
panzagl
Luggage is chemically scanned for explosives, carry-ons are not.

~~~
pgrote
How is that accomplished? I know sometimes when I go through the security line
they take a white, circular pad, wipe my laptop, bag, etc. and put the pad in
a sensor.

Do they do this with every piece of luggage going into the hold?

~~~
panzagl
Probably more like a statistically relevant sample, but I believe so.

