
The Abstinence Method – Dutch farmers say no to antibiotics for livestock - Mz
http://modernfarmer.com/2014/06/abstinence-method/
======
alkonaut
As the article says, the routine use of hormones and antibiotics for livestock
has been banned for almost a decade in Europe.

What scares me is that with the new trade deal currently being hammered out
between the EU and the US, there is a lot of pressure to "harmonize" the
regulations, meaning the US will demand their chlorine-rinsed chicken, and
hormone/antibiotics filled beef be allowed in the european markets.

~~~
pinaceae
Use of anti-biotics for livestock has _not_ been banned in Europe, where
exactly do you get this info from?

The article talks about the Dutch stopping the use of anti-biotics as
_preventive_ measures, a practice where you feed animals antibiotics so that
they cannot get sick in the first place. Once the animal is sick, they can
still be treated with AB.

And to clear something up: Organic-labeled beef in the US is AB free, you can
only label beef organic if no antibiotics were used full stop. Germany?
Organic beef is allowed to have been treated with AB.

The world of food and animal safety is not as black and white as you might
think. The FDA has instilled some pretty harsh rules that have not been
adopted in the EU.

Same goes with cars btw, the rules on Diesel emissions are ways stricter in
the US, etc. Different safety standards as well.

~~~
alkonaut
> Use of anti-biotics for livestock has not been banned in Europe, where
> exactly do you get this info from?

[http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_use_in_livestock#E...](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_use_in_livestock#European_Union)

(And by Europe I meant the EU) Sadly, not all countries seem to respect the
ban.

------
Mz
I upvoted a different story from this site and somehow found myself reading
this (no doubt an oopsy of mousing) and trying to figure out the tie-in to the
title I _thought_ I was reading. :-P Having figured out my error, I think this
is a far more fascinating piece about one country deciding to drastically
reduce its use of antibiotics in meat production.

Excerpts:

 _There are points of tension. Disease-prevention dosing can be a hedge
against sloppy practices: With the drugs no longer available, farmers have to
pay close attention to hygiene, diet and stress. Not all are willing to do
so._

And:

 _Oosterlaken also revels in the challenge of farming without the crutch of
antibiotics, and proudly shows off the changes he has made on his farm. He is
obsessive about biosecurity, requiring visitors to shower and shampoo, change
into fresh clothes and underwear that he supplies and then don scrubbed boots
color-keyed to different areas._

~~~
Retric
I think the most shocking point is _To this day, when members of Dutch farm
families go into hospitals, they are put into isolation rooms until lab tests
show they are clear of the germ._

That has got to change peoples mindsets and could easily end up happening in
the US.

~~~
speleding
Actually, it is not entirely impossible that with the prevalence of MRSA
bacteria in the US there will come a point when US visitors to Dutch hospitals
will need to be quarantined as a precaution.

The resulting headlines would make a powerful agent for change indeed.

~~~
DanBC
Any body admitted to a UK hospital is swabbed (nose and groin) for MRSA.

I would be interested to see what the ratios are split by where the person was
recently living.

~~~
arethuza
Interesting, I had no idea they were doing that:

[http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/MRSA/Pages/MRSAscreeningwhattoe...](http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/MRSA/Pages/MRSAscreeningwhattoexpect.aspx)

------
anigbrowl
What an inspiring story. The dutch seem to be particularly good at quantifying
externalities and negotiating change, which may be due to their 'Polder model'
of governance.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_model](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_model)

~~~
nasmorn
I just saw a documentary on German tv showimg mich the Same thing for Danish
pig farmers so it is not an isolated example. It is a simple issue of
incentives.

Even more impressive was that zero anti biotics use in pig farming practiced
by a farmer who had his pigs in stables with free range access was only 40%
more expensive. Just think about it. We endanger the most important scientific
advancement in human health for cheaper bacon.

~~~
Cthulhu_
> Just think about it. We endanger the most important scientific advancement
> in human health for cheaper bacon.

Because that's what the consumer wants. Apparently. Supermarkets have been
competing with each other on prices for ages, a well-known example is chicken
fillet. The price has gone down to just E3 per kilo at one point, which caused
a bit of a riot because those were the famous 'plofkip' (exploding chicken),
or chickens that were forced to grow as large as possible in as little time as
possible.

But there's the other side, too; farms like the one described in the opening
post can thank their existence over an increase in demand for 'organic' meat,
or meat that gets a label indicating it was grown in an animal-friendly
fashion without use of antibiotics and growth hormone. Conscious consumers
with a decent income will be more inclined to pay a premium for that kind of
meat.

~~~
Loughla
'Organic' does not mean animal-friendly. It generally means without the use of
synthetic chemicals (or without the use of any chemicals, depending on what
farm you're at).

Either way, sorry for being overly pedantic, but too often when people see
organic the automatically assume the animals are being treated better/more
ethically than they would be at a regular, non-organic farm.

~~~
justincormack
That not true in Europe at least, where organic certification includes animal
welfare standards eg the UK see
[http://www.soilassociation.org/animalwelfare](http://www.soilassociation.org/animalwelfare)

~~~
Loughla
That's what I get for applying the US lens to Europe. . . .

But, the regulations are very similar. So, where your site states, "Lots of
outdoor space and fresh air" "Encouragement of normal animal behaviour" I
wonder if that is translated the same as the United States: "Provide access to
the outdoors so that animals can exercise their natural behaviors" "Support
animal health and welfare"

If it is, I really wonder if they're being applied the same, or if yours are
as open for interpretation as ours. My experience with US organic farming is
dairy and chicken. I work with farmers quite a bit through the extension
office of my college employer. The organic farmers in my area practice (in my
opinion) very loose organic practices.

For example, access to outdoors was available, but in an enclosed area (run
for chickens, small pasture for cattle). This, by no means allowed the animals
to "exercise their natural behaviors," and yet was within the legal definition
of organic, and allowed them to sell their products to grocery stores and
markets as 'certified organic'.

The health and welfare laws mentioned in the second portion apply to all
farmers, regardless of organic certification or not.

Is the interpretation similar in Europe?

~~~
justincormack
That's a very good question. I don't know what the worst case is here, only a
few cases which are very good... Will try to find out.

------
dwightgunning
In my experience living here, it's not only the farmers. Dutch doctors
typically avoid prescribing general antibiotics (or advising anything stronger
than paracetamol) to people.

~~~
junto
My wife's cousin owns a dairy farm in Germany and only uses homeopathic
medicines on the cows. When I stifled a chuckle, he indignantly pointed out
that not only does it appear to work for his cows, it isn't as if the cows can
understand him, nor know that they are being treated.

However much I have my doubts about homeopathy, his cows seemed healthy and
weren't being pumped full of antibiotics; hence I saw it as a good thing.

~~~
RyanMcGreal
Homeopathy "works" because most illnesses are self-limiting. For example,
homeopathics appear to treat the common cold successfully, with the caveat
that they take about a week or two to take effect.

~~~
zellyn
My understanding is that for the common cold, that's how "real" medicine works
too. :-)

------
Qantourisc
I'm from Belgium, and I didn't see this article anywhere in my newspapers :/
Keep up the good work HN :)

------
bra-ket
related: The global threat of antibiotic resistance
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7674550](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7674550)

------
rurounijones
One of the things that stood out for me was the emphasis on transparency when
comparing farms and vets together based on their use of antibiotics.

Without that transparency I think it would fail.

------
mverwijs
The thing that jumps out at me from the article is the sheer size of 'the
broiler farm that 160.000 chickens call home.'

If anything this article makes me feel ashamed for being Dutch.

~~~
Synaesthesia
It's not ideal, but if you look at how chickens are usually farmed, it's in
the dark, in wire cages stacked on top of each other this is much better!
Battery cages are completely unsanitary, the birds are covered in shit the
whole time and can easily get injured, and much more stressful than this.

~~~
rejschaap
Yeah, these chickens are healthy, they might even be happy there. They could
do a lot worse. If someone really doesn't like the idea of broiler farm
chickens, they can pay a little extra for free range chickens. Or pay even
more to buy them off a local farmer. Or just switch to something else
entirely, there are plenty of alternatives available today.

~~~
riffraff
how do you see that those chicken are healthy?

I ask honestly because my first thought at the picture was that, If anything,
it shows that the chickens have bad plumage[0] and are mostly sitting down[1].

For [1] my guess is either the animals pick on each other too much, or they
are actually chicks that have grown in size faster than they should. For [2]
it may mean that they have weak bones/muscles (due to bad feeding, inflated
growth and no movement) and that they are actually laying in their own filth.

It may still be better than cages, of course.

------
rollthehard6
In a potentially related story, BBC News reports a 300% increase in 10 years
of younger prople being admitted with Crohn's Disease. Got it at 38 myself
and, like others I suspect my exposure to large doses of antiobiotics may have
contributed (For adult acne in my case - it's thought antibiotics deplete
bacteria in the digestive tract which can lead to IBD following an infection,
mine kicked off after food poisoning)

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/27810066](http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/27810066)

~~~
jp555
You could just as likely be looking at it backwards.

Could it just be a 300% increase due to 1000% increase in testing?

It's not really surprising; our brains are profoundly good at finding
patterns, even when there are none.

~~~
rollthehard6
It's quite possible IBD is just better diagnosed and patients are more aware
of it yes. Myself I've been on Low Dose Naltrexone, more accurately, a low
dose of Naltreone for 4 years and am asymptomatic, though I still have mildly
active disease. The whole topic of OGF/Met-enkephalin is a fascinating one.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Met-
enkephalin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Met-enkephalin)

And I agree, yes, there are many factors that contribute to auto-immune
disease development both genetic and environmental.

------
gregpilling
Interesting article. The farmer that requires visitors to shampoo, probably
has very few visitors.

~~~
ht_th
It is about visiting the inner farm, so to speak. You can visit farms all you
like, but once you come in close contact with animals, i.e., go into the
animal barn, you're supposed to clean. The inner farms never had much
visitors, especially in the industrial scale farming. Those who would visit
anyway, vets, workers, maybe colleagues or students, will not have a problem
with thorough cleaning, I suppose.

------
ugk
Great idea until people start going hungry.

~~~
pmr_
Apparently those measures have not had an negative effect on productivity in
the Netherlands, so I do not see where you are coming from.

And you are also forgetting that this is done to prevent the spread of life-
threatening diseases for which we do not have a working treatment yet and the
emergence of new diseases of that kind.

Those are hard problems. Hunger in the first world is not (we already
overproduce any kind of food) and even if meat would become scarce we could
just use a fraction of the resources which are now used to raise livestock to
feed ourselves.

------
txutxu
Nice to read this.

Now.

There is no enough meat farmers in the Netherlands, to produce all the meat
consumed _daily_ in the Netherlands.

I´ve been living and working there. I'm a meat lover. The Netherlands is the
Hell for a person with the same tastes than me (many years of high quality
meat and vegetables and cooking practices).

Meat in the Netherlands is of very bad quality and very high price (I will
avoid more colloquial expressions of my basic english).

In those countries that dutch people call "monkeys" or "Moroccans" (this is,
portugal, spain, italy and greece) the meat is much better in quality and
price... but... we don't have the "autosuggestion" of "we are the best" than
dutch people have (even with their street reality).

I don't trust news years ago, but I trust my experience.

The pseudo-nazi dutch people (the first place in the world where I did meet
black-skin-nazis, gay-nazis, jew-nazis, etc), are very prone to believe, say
and sell, that they are the best, this news are very well crafted for their
mind, I don't want to live on a country with the meat quality and price of the
Netherlands streets. I know the reality there.

I prefer to be a "Moroccan monkey discriminated european" for them, and take
meat and tomatoes of the mountains of my not so auto-suggested, auto-inclined,
people. And live with the bad reality (and crafted news) of my country.

Enjoy the meal, and sleep on ignorance and discriminatory abundance, and
justify yourself your incoherent reality, dear dutch people.

~~~
wobbleblob
This post is actually one of the most positive reviews of Dutch food I have
ever seen =)

~~~
txutxu
Well, it may seem positive, but here in the inferior south, that photos could
destroy the day of many (sub)people.

We prefer animals and tomatoes not grow in those conditions shown in the
photos (we get them, at the same prices, but grow with space and natural
food).

I don't know why the article does not talk about the technologies used to
modify vegetables and animals. I don't care if they don't get antibiotics,
while they are transgenics, clones, or grow with irradiation and other
technologies.

Also sorry and excuses to those offended downvoters, I can probe each word, I
said them with care of not let me go, but I could go on, if somebody clarify
the disagreement

~~~
wobbleblob
Every foreigner who has ever seen a Dutch meal on his plate, dared to take a
bite, and then seen the bill, knows exactly what you mean. Rants usually
follow, though maybe not always with quite so many Nazi references :)

~~~
mverwijs
As a dutchy, the first thing my wife and I do as we cross any border, is go to
have a decent meal. True story.

~~~
wobbleblob
Imagine the shock, when one sinks their teeth into one of those beautiful,
perfect looking, huge, shiny, spotless and bright red strawberries, and
instead of the expected explosion of sweet, fruity flavor, the mouth fills
with the tart, watery and astringent culinary assault familiar to the poor
flavor deprived Dutch. How can a fruit so perfect in appearance be so
offensive in taste that one would only feed it to a horse as a punishment for
kicking a child.

