
Beyond Meat: Fake Meat So Good It Will Freak You Out - krschultz
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2012/07/beyond_meat_fake_chicken_that_tastes_so_real_it_will_freak_you_out_.html
======
ebbv
I love how every time something like this comes out they ask someone who
hasn't had meat in 10 years if it's just like meat. Yeah, because they would
know.

My biggest problem, though, is if I'm having ingredients that aren't meat, I'd
like to have them be good. I've never had fake meat that I would call
appetizing.

I've had lots of vegetarian dishes that were delightful, but not one included
fake meat.

I am not vegetarian.

~~~
bunderbunder
I think an inescapable problem is that it's hard to get past the framing. A
product might actually be a very good food that easily stands up on its own
merits. But if it's being carefully processed in a way that attempts to mimic
all the cosmetic characteristics of chicken, being labeled as "chikkin", and
being served lightly breaded with honey mustard on the side, then it's
perpetually doomed to just be an imperfect imitation of chicken.

~~~
uvTwitch
I'm an omnivore, and if this stuff was equivalently expensive, and
sufficiently chicken-like, I'd buy it instead. Real Chicken isn't exactly some
holy grail of food, it just tastes good.

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gfunk911
Maybe it's orthogonal, but this article doesn't discuss at all the nutritional
advantages and disadvantages of eating meat. It may taste like meat, but the
nutritional profile is nothing like meat.

~~~
Scriptor
Also, I'm curious what the actual impact of it is. One of the main arguments
against meat is that it takes a great deal more energy and work to create 1
pound of plant food than 1 pound of meat. From what I've seen, beyond meat
uses some sort of manufacturing process to create it. How much energy does it
take to ship all those materials and run that factory?

~~~
jfoutz
It's about 6 times more energy intensive to order chemicals from new jersey
and stir them in a vat than it is to ship live cattle to a slaughter house and
butcher them.

Essentially all the cost of feeding and cleaning the cattle is very low, and
storage of raw meat after slaughter is very cheap.

Alternatively storing the raw products for fake chicken are incredibly
complicated. Furthermore, once the product is produced there is a ton of
regulation about its care and handling. What's perhaps most troubling is the
risk to workers while producing the product. They require fairly risky
industrial tools, and not every manufacturer is really dillagent about
providing good guards for people's hands.

~~~
3am
The raw products for fake chicken are mostly soybeans or chick peas, hot
water, and a mineral coagulating agent. The biggest energy input is for
boiling the water and growing the crops.

Cows require 50 times more protein from grain as input than they provide after
being slaughtered (you can google this, it's research from Cornell). You are
180 degrees wrong on that point, the cost of feeding them is _very high_.
Unless you can genetically engineer them to have more efficient metabolisms,
this is a fundamental problem for beef.

I can't tell if you're serious about the last paragraph. Citations would be
great, because it's hard to believe that real meat is less regulated than
plant-protein based fake meat or that the risk to workers that make it is less
than to those working in an industrial slaughterhouse.

I'm not even a vegetarian...

~~~
anamax
> Cows require 50 times more protein from grain as input than they provide
> after being slaughtered (you can google this, it's research from Cornell).

I suspect that you're referring to the research summarized at
[http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/aug97/livestock.hrs.htm...](http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/aug97/livestock.hrs.html)
.

I'm not sure that it supports the conclusions that you (and its author) make.
For example: (quoting)

"> For every kilogram of high-quality animal protein produced, livestock are
fed nearly 6 kg of plant protein."

6 << 50\. And, a lot of that "plant protein" isn't available to people.

"More than 302 million hectares of land are devoted to producing feed for the
U.S. livestock population -- about 272 million hectares in pasture and about
30 million hectares for cultivated feed grains."

Much pasture land is pasture because it isn't all that suitable for other
purposes. Unless you eat grass/hay....

"THIRSTY PRODUCTION SYSTEMS. U.S. agriculture accounts for 87 percent of all
the fresh water consumed each year. Livestock directly use only 1.3 percent of
that water. But when the water required for forage and grain production is
included, livestock's water usage rises dramatically. Every kilogram of beef
produced takes 100,000 liters of water. [wheat and potatoes take much less]"

It appears that he's counting rain as "use". While technically true, that
water can't be used elsewhere. (Grain land is rarely irrigated and pasture
almost never is.)

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DannoHung
I think I read about this stuff in an earlier article and I'm still wondering:
How does it actually chemically respond to heat, water, oil, etc etc. I mean,
I suppose its alright if it just works like chicken in a single context
(grilled maybe?), but it's not really a meat replacement unless you can rely
on it to behave the same as meat for the purpose of recipes.

Don't take that as criticism of the product, I'm just curious what it's
properties are and if you'd need to revamp your recipes if you wanted to use
this stuff.

~~~
autarch
I've tried this at home. I made chicken noodle soup with it and it worked
really well. I sauteed it in olive oil in a pan first, then added it to the
broth later.

It withstood both form of cooking fairly well. It browned in the pan and
absorbed some liquid in the broth, but it didn't break down.

However, I don't know if this stuff would be grillable. It's not a big chunk
like a real chicken breast. It comes out of the package in small chunks. So
it'd work great for some recipes but not for things like chicken piccata.

However, I highly recommend Gardein for recipes like those. It comes in the
form just like chicken breasts, and works great for recipes that require a
large flat piece.

~~~
DannoHung
Interesting. I wonder if any molecular gastronomist chefs have figured out
what its parameters are.

Anyone wanna try ice cream with frozen chick-a-like chunks?

------
truebosko
Ingredients in Chicken (that isn't factory farmed): Chicken

Ingredients in this: Water, Soy Protein Isolate, Pea Protein Isolate,
Amaranth, Natural Vegan Chicken Flavor (Maltodextrin, Yeast Extract, Natural
Flavoring), Soy Fiber, Carrot Fiber, Expeller-Pressed Canola Oil, Dipotassium
Phosphate, Titanium Dioxide, White Vinegar

So, it's not _terrible_ but it's just more fake pseudo-meat. What's so hard
about buying a soy protein (firm tofu, tempeh, etc.), and just cooking it with
spices and herbs like you would a regular piece of meat? Fake food sucks.

~~~
bluekite2000
Have you been to any Buddhist country (Vietnam,Thailand India,etc) and tried
any of the faux-chicken/beef/pork/fish dish? It isn't as real as Beyond Meat
probably (since it is not made by scientists but thousands of years of
practicing vegetarian) but is quite delicious.

~~~
smackfu
We went to a Chinese restaurant the other day that is known for having
vegetarian versions of almost every regular American Chinese restaurant dish.
They used some kind of fibrous fake meat for the General Tsaos chicken that
was very convincing. Maybe seaweed based?

~~~
natrius
My guess is seitan.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_gluten_(food)>

------
zavulon
I've been a vegetarian for 4 years and stopped about a year ago. This sounds
great, but it still consists of soy protein, which is not good for men due to
estrogen.

<http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys-negative-effects>

Not too reliable of a source, I know, but there's a bunch of reputable books
that I've read back in the day on this subject that said the same thing.

~~~
powertower
Soy (unfermented) is a terrible idea.

<http://www.jacn.org/content/19/2/242.full>

"Results: Poor cognitive test performance, enlargement of ventricles and low
brain weight were each significantly and independently associated with higher
midlife tofu consumption."

"We hypothesize that regular dietary exposure to soy isoflavones over many
years during middle life may be associated with the appearance of accelerated
brain aging in later life attributable to chronically sub-optimal neural
plasticity."

~~~
illumin8
This study seems to be counteracted by millions of Asian people that are
living well into their 80s, 90s, and 100s, and eat a diet that has quite a bit
of unfermented (and fermented) soy in it.

~~~
vidarh
Surely that depends on how much of that population falls on the "low" or
"high" side of soy intake as measured by the study. I don't know how much of
the Asian population falls into the intake levels this study claims might be
negatively affected - do you?

------
nsns
The problem with these alternatives is they are highly processed, the exact
opposite of a healthy meal of vegetables, lentils, nuts...

That said, the modern industrial slaughter of animals is an ongoing atrocity
on an unbelievable scale, worst than anything humans ever did to each other
(and can only be deemed acceptable if you vouch for biblical notions of human
supremacism). If this helps any, all the best to them.

~~~
ryeguy
There is nothing inherently wrong with processed food. Processed foods could
only be considered "bad" if you're actually replacing healthy foods with them.

For example, a can of coke isn't actually bad for me per se, it's just
nutritionally useless, and it's taking up 100something calories out of my
calorie budget for the day that could be used by something with a higher
amount of micronutrients in it.

I don't think any vegetarian or vegan is going to throw out all their veggies
and start eating nothing but meat alternatives as soon as a viable replacement
comes out.

~~~
nsns
The excessive amount of sugar in your coke kills your liver and pancreas, it's
hardly harmless.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17Sugar-t.htm...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17Sugar-t.html?pagewanted=all)

~~~
ryeguy
Gary Taubes, of course. This article says nothing about "killing" your organs.
It simply mentions excess consumption raises your insulin resistance, which
will be the case with overconsumption of ANY carbohydrates.

------
mistercow
The plan to have it sold at the meat counter is cute in terms of confidence,
but suicidal if they want to market to vegetarians. Once you stop associating
raw meat with food, it starts looking, well, gross and violent, and the smell
is off-putting. Most vegetarians I've known, myself included, try to avoid
that section of the grocery store entirely.

So while I applaud them trying to compete with meat directly and potentially
sniping some carnivorous business, I hope they will also keep a few boxes for
me in the hippie section.

~~~
vidarh
I'd think that the market for "I can't believe it's not dead chicken" for
vegetarians would be a tiny trickle compared to if they can sell it as "good
conscience, and healthier too" to the section of us meat eaters who _also_
find the meat counter off putting.

~~~
mistercow
It's a bold move, to be sure. Nobody has ever had a fake meat product they
were confident enough in to market to meat eaters, and as an ethical
vegetarian, I certainly hope it works.

~~~
vidarh
As a meat eater who happily eats pretty much whatever animal part I'm offered,
I hope they succeed too, because I'd love to see a market for meat substitutes
that are good enough that I get more delicious meat-like products to choose
from that eventually taste better than the real thing.

------
stuff4ben
As a voracious meat eater, I am actually intrigued by the idea of a healthier
chicken meat that takes the environment into consideration. If it tastes like
chicken, even looks like chicken, is healthier than chicken, and has less of
an impact on the environment/climate/conscience, why wouldn't you eat it? Now
beef on the other hand...I still am on the fence there. What can I say, I like
a nice medium rare, well-marbled, ribeye slightly charred on the outside. I
don't think you can ever replace that.

~~~
sprocket
My wife and I run a small farm and one of our products is organic, pasture
raised chicken. All of our birds spend the majority of their lives out on
fresh grass in the sunshine and our never exposed to any antibiotics,
pesticides and herbicides.

The difference that a bit of exposure to green forage in an outdoor
environment makes, both to the flavour and texture of the chicken, is AMAZING.
Industrial broiler barn chicken pales in comparison.

I'd encourage anyone seeking to buy a more environmentally friendly chicken to
try to make contact with a local organic farmer who's able to raise his birds
outside and in a humane fashion.

~~~
MattSayar
How would you say your pure chicken would compare to a USDA Organic chicken I
can buy at the store?

~~~
sprocket
I live in Canada so I can't compare directly to a USDA Organic chicken.
However, based on a chicken one could get from Whole Foods, for example, our
bird has a much richer flavour and a firmer, less rubbery texture. This part
is very subjective, of course, but in a side-by-side comparison you would
definitely be able to taste and feel the difference.

We also raise our birds to be much heavier than a store bought bird - on
average about six pounds after processing vs three-ish pounds in the store.
I'd wager that your meat-to-carcase ratio is probably higher for one of our
birds, giving a better value. (Actually, it's better value regardless - we
sell our birds for $4/lb vs $5/lb for the broiler barn organic birds in the
store.)

Environmentally, there's less concentration of pollutants. All of the chicken
manure goes straight on the grass and is a primo source of nutrients for
subsequent hay crops. For me it's a win - I don't have to apply fertilizer nor
clean out chicken barns.

Coming from an animal welfare standpoint, just because you're buying "organic"
chicken in the store, doesn't mean they've been raised in a humane fashion. I
carry no guilt in eating our chickens. They're not overcrowded, debeaked or in
a dusty, foul smelling environment. They live as well as I can provide up
until the day they go for slaughter.

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bluekite2000
In Asia, there is a delicacy called dog meat. To maximize profit, cooks use
pork instead (sometimes from sick or dead pigs) Then they fake it by adding
fermented rice, ginger, shrimp paste to make it look feel and taste like real
dog meat. For more info (in Vietnamese) <http://goo.gl/g07yF>

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codegeek
Hong Kong has restaurants where they have items that are clones of chicken,
shrimp,fish etc. but are not actual meat. I tried and it was great.

EDIT: Funny thing is that the menu has item names such as "vegetarian chicken"
and I am not kidding.

~~~
reubensutton
In the UK, I've never found an imitation of fish or prawns, let alone a great
one.

~~~
justincormack
There are crabsticks, an old Uk favourite. They are pretty horrible though....

~~~
reubensutton
I believe crabsticks are made from reformed fish. Agreed on how horrible they
are though.

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eslachance
This sounds very promising. As a vegan, it's pretty hard to find decent
alternatives to meat, which I still crave once in a while - I went vegan for
health reasons, not ideological ones.

This has been getting better with time, but unfortunately a lot of fake
vegetarian and vegan meats tend to be unhealthy. In order to get some decent
taste and texture, some odd ingredients are often used. Vegan does not equal
healthy in all cases. This one sounds pretty good, hope they find their way to
Canada and branch out to different meats, too!

~~~
recycleme
I've tried a couple of beef and chicken alternatives that were splendid. The
trick was to cook it to my liking. Crispy, wet, etc.

I imagine these kinds of foods are ok for transitioning into a vegan. However,
I was vegan once, and I took it as an opportunity to discover all kinds of new
vegetables and fruits. It was interesting learning to cook with no meat. I had
discovered a whole new world of food.

Eating fake meat seems a bit nostalgic tbh.

------
yread
There is also Šmakoun, it's basically just pressed egg white. Here is the
inventor describing it

 _The slice is made of pure egg white, that is albumin, which is a source of
the most valuable proteins, necessary in metabolism of organs of living
organisms. New modern technology of processing of the hen egg white has been
developed in the Czech Republic and patented. This technology turns the white
into a porous material further processed in pressurised steam chamber. That
produces a compact belt of thin layer of material, composed of microscopic
fibres. The belt is then rolled into the shape of cylinder, cut into smaller
pieces. These are then pressed into the final form of 100-gram slices.
Finished slices are vacuum packaged in plastic bags. As final treatment, each
bag is re-sterilised in special equipment._

from <http://www.iufost.org/publications/newsline/Newsline55.html>

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ajb
This could be because we have such low expectations of what actually counts as
meat. For example, Jamie Oliver on how chicken nuggets are made (in the US)
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2OK6xDd7Hs>

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dhughes
Why would a person who is vegan want to eat fake meat? I find it odd a person
who is a vegans who finds even vegetarianism too relaxed would even want to
eat fake meat.

I wonder if the opposite could be done to create a fake carrot made entirely
out of meat?

Beyond Meat's website has _"without the bad stuff (no saturated or trans fat,
no cholesterol, no gluten, no antibiotics, no GMOs...and no meat)"_. How is
gluten "bad stuff" unless you have celiac disease?

~~~
recycleme
> Why would a person who is vegan want to eat fake meat?

I understand what you're saying, but the short answer is because fake meat is
not meat. I don't think it's about not eating what tastes good but it's about
not eating meat (or any animal by-products).

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mberning
I don't get it. You want all the benefits of eating meat without actually
eating meat? I understand people have moral objections to the meat industry,
but if you are doing it for health reasons you might as well just eat real
meat. Research has shown quite conclusively that pre-historic humans survived
on a diet rich in animal products, particularly animal fat.

~~~
uptown
The article spells it out pretty clearly:

"Brown’s long-term goal is to offer a product that can satisfy the world’s
growing, and largely unsustainable, demand for meat, especially in ballooning
markets like India and China."

"Meat is environmentally toxic and colossally inefficient, ethically dubious
(even if you’re OK with killing animals, raising and slaughtering animals in
factory farms is hard to defend), and it’s unhealthy (that’s even true if you
don’t eat it—there’s good evidence that the rampant use of antibiotics in
livestock production has given rise to drug-resistant infections)."

The amount of resources required to raise an animal to the age at which it can
be slaughtered for use as food is a very real problem as the natural resources
of the world are strained by population growth.

~~~
mberning
Ok, so rather than feeding people the genuine article let's feed them some
laboratory created faux-meat. That sounds like a great way to be healthy.

I don't disagree that we need to find more sustainable ways to feed ourselves,
but we also need to be feeding ourselves quality food that matches our
biological needs. Not whatever is most conveniently and cheaply produced.

~~~
Retric
There is not enough farm land to provide 7 billion people a western diet
including 1500+ calories from beef every day. The only way to get close to
that is to replace most farm land with solar panels supplement that with a lot
of nuclear and wind energy and then factory farm plant matter using LED
lighting in buildings and feed that to cows in another building.

Is it possible, sure but economics just a question of what your willing to
sacrifice for what you want. And significant quantities of fake meat is
probably a much better option for everyone involved.

------
wklauss
I'm not sure if I'm the only one that feels a little cheated with this
article. It reads like PR for the product and Manjoo buries that Stone's
Obvious Corp is an investor in BM in the the middle of the text even when he
uses Stone's quotes at the beggining.

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smackfu
I've had seitan "beef" tips at a good veggie restaurant that would convince
almost anyone. Yes, heavily sauced, but the right color and a nice char on
them. (And I'm just dating a vegetarian, so I have a good point of reference
for real meat.)

------
raldi
Why aim to make something indistinguishable from real meat? Instead of
stopping when you hit "100% as good as meat" you can keep going, and make
something 120% as good, and beyond.

------
rabidsnail
"I forgot I was eating something that didn’t come from a living creature":
Does fungus not live?

~~~
shakesbeard
Are you trying to imply that consumption of animals and plants/fungi is the
same? What's the point of that argument? I mean, come on, I'm vegetarian and I
kill mosquitoes ...

~~~
rabidsnail
I think it's the same, but then again I'm not a vegetarian. What I'm really
trying to imply is that what people decide they're allowed to eat is based on
(mostly arbitrary) social norms. Is there anything morally different between
being vegetarian and keeping kosher?

Aside: Anyone who figures out how to make salmon produce pork will have a
license to print money (kosher pork!).

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nessus42
Beyond Meat is people! It's _people_!

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bstewartnyc
Great more fake stuff, just what we need.

