
Backpacker stripped of tech gear at Auckland Airport - _mgr
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11171475
======
patio11
Not quite so relevant to NZ but since I'm guessing many HNers are wondering
what happens at the US border:

[https://www.eff.org/wp/defending-privacy-us-border-guide-
tra...](https://www.eff.org/wp/defending-privacy-us-border-guide-travelers-
carrying-digital-devices)

I worry about this, since I travel frequently. Then again, I also worry about
plane crashes. I think both are probably irrational, but having plans is what
keeps the boogeyman away at night, so here's mine:

1) Remain polite and professional.

2) Decline to consent to any search. Comply with officers' demands that they
tell me I'm legally required to comply with. Ask for that demand to be
produced in writing. I'm willing to wait for a supervisor while they figure
out how to do that, even if it means I miss my flight. I will get a receipt
and/or report number and/or some other official written record of the incident
if any seizure, including seizure of information, takes place.

3) Immediately after reaching my destination, file written grievances with any
and all responsible agencies. They must have a spreadsheet tracking passenger
complaints somewhere. Let's increment that while having someone commit, on
paper, to a version of events of what happened and a legal rationale to why
that was justified. This will only cost me a bit of time and money, and I have
lots of time and money, but it has heavily asymmetric payoff in the event of a
lawsuit or PR battle.

But honestly? Mathematically, I'm much, much more at risk of getting mugged in
Chicago on my way home from the airport than getting held up by Customs. I
don't exactly live in fear of muggings but I take sensible precautions like
e.g. backing up my data, making sure that I can turn a factory-new laptop into
a working dev environment within a day, and carrying insurance. I'm pretty
sure most of these still work even if I happen to lose a laptop to Customs
rather than to a mugger.

~~~
salient
Do you get searched by the TSA even when you're using the US airport as a hub,
and not visiting US? Because I was already thinking of avoiding US as a hub if
possible, but I wasn't sure if it was necessary or not.

~~~
patio11
My understanding is that US airports are generally not configured to separate
transit passengers from the rest of the airport (there is a term of art for
this but it is eluding me at the moment). As a consequence, if you're in
America even for a few minutes, you'll meet with our good friends at Customs
and Border Patrol. CBP is not TSA.

~~~
chris_j
The term that I've heard used for this is sterile transit. I'm not aware of
any US airports having it.

~~~
NickNameNick
LAX has it, I've been through on the London to Auckland route, both ways.

Both times they didn't have enough staff to man the separate customs desk, and
ran us through a general customs hall.

~~~
nwp90
It's been and gone a few times over the years on that route. At times
immigration but no baggage claim, at times transit lounge (actually I'm not
sure I ever did go through when that was in force, I think it came and went
in-between trips for me), at times full re-check-in... anyway, I think the
setup was different every time. And every time they found a way to make it a
PITA. I eventually got fed up with it, and don't travel that way any more.

I prefer via Dubai, Hong Kong, or Shanghai. Border control officers there,
while still clearly doing their job meticulously, manage to be polite as well.

------
benjamincburns
In the first week of January I'm leaving a Software Engineering gig for a US
defense contractor to move to New Zealand. Due to the expense of shipping, my
wife and I are only bringing what we can carry, and we've taken special care
to fit as much of our lives as possible into our electronic devices.
Search/seizure of these devices would be horrible and violating on so many
levels.

This news is absolutely _terrifying_ to me.

Edit: I wrote this as a quick knee-jerk without much thought, and now that I
read it again I see the sad irony. This is being done to _prevent_ terror?
Someone needs to do a risk/reward analysis here...

Edit 2: I appreciate everyone offering up solutions here, but really the only
solution would be either to not go, or to not carry any devices at all.
Encryption can't prevent me from being detained and my property from being
confiscated. Given that the issue here is a violation of personal space rather
than one of having something to hide, encryption will only increase the impact
which such an event would have on my wife and me. If such an event were to
occur and I was using strong encryption to protect my data, I'd be asked for
any encryption keys, detained for much longer, and if I refused to cooperate
in any way I'd have my things permanently confiscated and face refusal of
entry.

If I find myself in this situation, I'll be looking to minimize impact. I'll
cooperate while trying as best as I can not to compromise my values, and then
raise hell after the fact.

~~~
ams6110
Upload everything to a server before you leave. Download it when you get
there. Take no devices across borders except a throwaway phone for
emergencies.

~~~
javajosh
On it's face, this is not good advice, particularly as electronics are rather
more expensive in NZ than in the states. However, it is entirely possible to
sell all of your electronic gear (ebay, craigslist, amazon) and buy it again,
at a cost. Of course, this is a great deal of pain to go through, and it
strikes us all as egregious, unnecessary, and unjust.

It's not clear, however, why if customs can demand your passwords to your
devices, why can't they demand your passwords to remote servers?

In any event, it is important to protest in the strongest possible way these
encroachments upon our individual liberties. It's shocking that this needs to
be repeated in 2013 in the West, but a citizen should not be deprived of life,
liberty, or property without due process of law, and mere suspicion does not
constitute due process. The state cannot be allowed to continue violating
these rights.

I've spent some serious time in NZ, and was deeply impressed with the humanity
of it's government and it's governmental workers. It is heartbreaking to see
this Americanism make its way to a more innocent land.

Don't give in to this, Kiwis. Protest. Write letters to your representatives.
Keep your dignity and your common sense. Don't let your security forces (at
the border or anywhere else) do this sort of thing to visitors.

~~~
benjamincburns
> It's not clear, however, why if customs can demand your passwords to your
> devices, why can't they demand your passwords to remote servers?

I don't know that there's any legal mechanism in their favor (I'm not very
familiar with NZ law on this level), but there's a simple physical mechanism
they have going for them. If you refuse to provide passwords to your devices,
they can simply refuse to return them to you when they're done with their
"inspection". If you're a citizen and you refuse to provide passwords to
remote accounts, they have no lasting leverage. If you're not a citizen, they
can simply deny your entry.

Edit:

> I've spent some serious time in NZ, and was deeply impressed with the
> humanity of it's government and it's governmental workers. It is
> heartbreaking to see this Americanism make its way to a more innocent land.

Two things... First, this is the kind of thing that had us moving there in the
first place [Edit: for clarity, this wasn't an initial reason for our move, or
even why we selected NZ, but it's definitely in the "pros" column]. I'm
displeased with the adversarial/entitled tack that my country's government
sometimes takes with its people, and I'm still hopeful that this is different
elsewhere.

Second, I find it really sad that you'd label this "Americanism." I don't
think it's entirely inaccurate to say that this is becoming a part of our
culture, but there is still tons and tons of good which can be ascribed to
that label as well. I hope that the bad isn't dwarfing the good to the extent
where the term "Americanism" becomes synonymous with "McCarthyism."

~~~
lemming
_First, this is the kind of thing that had us moving there in the first place
... I 'm displeased with the adversarial/entitled tack that my country's
government sometimes takes with its people, and I'm still hopeful that this is
different elsewhere._

FWIW, my wife and I were in the middle of a move to California to work for
Google, and we decided we didn't want to do that and that we'd rather live in
NZ instead (I'm a kiwi but had lived overseas for 13 years, she's foreign
produce). I've been very disappointed with some of what I've seen from a
legal/political point of view since I came back but NZ is still streaks ahead
of most other places I've lived from a quality of life standpoint (with some
exceptions, primarily cost of living will shock you coming from the States).
We're really happy with the decision we made and I feel like we have a much
better life here than we would have had there. Where will you be living?

 _I hope that the bad isn 't dwarfing the good to the extent where the term
"Americanism" becomes synonymous with "McCarthyism."_

Sadly, between the NSA and the TPP, as a foreigner it's getting harder and
harder to see the good of the US. I'm afraid that in my experience your whole
government and system of governance, at least, is getting tarred with your
foreign policy brush. That said, I don't know any Americans who have
experienced any sort of personal issue with the people they meet here because
of this, but the country itself is not seen as an agent of good IMO.

------
rangibaby
Kiwistan strikes again. He should be grateful they didn't send a team of armed
police to raid his house.

/edit:

Historically, white New Zealanders thought of New Zealand as "Better Britain".
This basically meant doing anything [1] and everything [2] to please the
"Mother Country". Now that the USA is the dominant superpower, this means
things like raiding Kim Dotcom's mansion or providing land for a spy base. [3]

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign)
[2] [http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/the-new-
zealanders/page-8](http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/the-new-zealanders/page-8) [3]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waihopai_Station](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waihopai_Station)

~~~
lostlogin
Somewhat related - it appears Dotcom Is still very much under surveillance.
The but about his cellular cover improving is fascinating, but if true, a
fairly big tell.
[http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=...](http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11170965)

~~~
panacea
"The but about his cellular..."

Excellent typo! You type in a kiwi accent ;]

------
aegiso
When an organized group of people uses force to take your belongings,
leveraging tactics of fear for political ends, isn't that firmly within the
definition of terrorism?

I don't know the facts here so I'm not implying anything in this specific
case, but I like to remember that the terminology we use drastically shapes
our thinking.

~~~
utunga
Secretary-General Kofi Annan actually tried to define terrorism at the end of
his tenure... He suggested : "Any action constitutes terrorism if it is
intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants
with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an
international organization to do or abstain from doing any act."

That would make the bombing of Dresden and Nagasaki (and any other bombing
under the 'strategic bombing' doctrine where the objective was to drain the
people's will to fight) to be terrorism, though. It would make some of what
the ANC did terrorism. This, however, would not be terrorism.

I think Kofi Annan was bang on the money. About time we had a workable
definition of the word (beyond just 'whatever the other guy does'). However he
didn't get very far with it at the UN level.

~~~
malandrew

        "LeMay said, "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been 
        prosecuted as war criminals." And I think he's right. He, 
        and I'd say I, were behaving as war criminals. LeMay 
        recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral 
        if his side had lost. But what makes it immoral if you 
        lose and not immoral if you win?"
    

Robert S. McNamara, in the documentary series The Fog of War.

[0]
[http://www.errolmorris.com/film/fow_transcript.html](http://www.errolmorris.com/film/fow_transcript.html)

~~~
tehwalrus
International law is a joke when only people who lose wars are prosecuted.

(I have a lot to say on this point, but I'll leave it at that and point you to
this[1])

[1] a series of three blog posts, old now and in need of rewriting:

[http://politicomaniac.net/2011/02/the-failure-of-the-
state/](http://politicomaniac.net/2011/02/the-failure-of-the-state/)

[http://politicomaniac.net/2011/02/lie-back-and-think-of-
engl...](http://politicomaniac.net/2011/02/lie-back-and-think-of-england/)

[http://politicomaniac.net/2011/02/fluffy-
federalism/](http://politicomaniac.net/2011/02/fluffy-federalism/)

------
kevcampb
I'm not so convinced on the conspiracy theories here. I say that as I had a
similar experience in Auckland airport a couple of years ago, when travelling
to another destination in the country.

The guy who interviewed me was actually very polite and friendly. They said
I'd probably been flagged up as suspicious due to my itinerary. I'd travelled
from China, for a 2 day visit to see a customer, with tickets booked via a US
agent (Expedia). Suspect that living in China at the time had quite a bit to
do with it.

Got asked all kinds of questions, most of which I didn't know the answer to.
Didn't get my laptop searched or asked for any passwords, but they did make a
point of asking if I had any porn on my computer. I said no, and they asked no
more. They way they asked though did make it sound like it was a bit of an
issue to them.

Took almost 2 hours in total. I actually didn't find it particularly
stressful, mostly as I still made my next flight. I'd had far worse times
travelling to the US, and getting some vindictive border agency guard who's
out to get you by any means possible. Really, I loathe US immigration.

------
coldcode
Apparently the New Zealand government is a bitch of the NSA.

~~~
prawn
I think at some level of consideration, it's worth thinking of the US, UK,
Canada, Australia and NZ as one entity. The public of each might see the
different flags, Olympic medal counts, anthems and cultural variations but
when the shit hits the fan (and now anything hitting anything) it's
effectively one thing.

I've mentioned before on here that I think of it as Oceania from 1984.

If a company has influence in the U*, you can bet they will get what they want
down here too.

~~~
X4
Add Germany. Our Government is pro NSA and supports them as good as they can.
They are dishonest self-servicing hypocrites.

~~~
alan_cx
Go on, name one government which isn't.

Actually, the UK government isnt being hypocritical, its brazenly up for
anything the US instructs it to do. I do wish we would decide if we are a
great little country which punches above it size, or a US lapbitch. Feckin'
hilarious when you consider the frankly xenophobic hatred we have of the EU
compared to the fawning over the US.

As for Germany, didn't you chaps have an election in the middle of the
scandal? Didn't various positions change a lot depending on polls, and of
course the confirmation that the US spies on it's allies as much as its
enemies? Watching some German politicians wriggling about as the Snowden
information is revealed must be quite humiliating for the German people.

~~~
PeterisP
>>Go on, name one government which isn't.

China? Russia? Iran? Venezuela? Pretty much any country that refuses to do USA
bidding is labeled 'enemy of the free world'.

------
grugq
This is why professionals operate on "Naked In/Naked Out". Show up with
nothing, acquire all your tooling in the country, execute your operational
activities, dispose of the tooling, leave the country with nothing.

Expensive, but safe.

These sorts of harassment measures are only capable of catching amateurs
making serious operational mistakes. They will not catch professionals or
serious operatives. I can never understand how this passes for counter-
terrorism when it is really just "counter-clumsy-terrorists", at best.

------
tynan
I had an interaction like this in Canada. The options they give you are to
give up your passwords, log in to your online banks to show them transactions,
etc., or have everything confiscated.

The reason they did it to me is because they thought I was a drug smuggler.
They got that idea because I was going to China and didn't have a fixed
itinerary, which they found to be incredibly suspicious.

I'm not sure if the non-techie cop was playing good cop/bad cop or not, but he
was yelling at me and accusing me of being a liar from the beginning. Because
I knew I hadn't done anything wrong and wasn't lying, it was pretty comical,
but it became really upsetting once they started threatening to seize
everything if I didn't give up my passwords.

~~~
dpatrick86
Sort of amusing that it's the lack of fixed schedule that really rattled him.
Dude sounds like he could use a sabbatical himself.

------
3327
"The object of terrorism is terrorism. The object of oppression is oppression.
The object of torture is torture. The object of murder is murder. The object
of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?"

------
kysol
Time to switch login prompt to "Logging in with username and password" and
have a dummy account that can delete files upon login. Provide the fairly
clueless customs official with the loaded login credentials and damage done
before they realise.

Not that I have anything to hide... that being said they will probably just
back door into my laptop next time I'm on and deactivate any form of tripwire.

Curse you NSA, always streets ahead!

(Note: If I wasn't on their radar, I am now... /sigh, it was a joke)

~~~
nwh
Pulling that sort of stunt would probably get you in a lot of trouble.

~~~
fractallyte
You must stop thinking like a _victim_. It's your property, your
responsibility, your freedom, your life. Assert yourself.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment)

~~~
rwallace
Okay, your heart is definitely in the right place, but if you're going to
assert yourself over your electronic gear at the airport, do _not_ for
heaven's sake do it by playing cute half-clever tricks with hidden volumes or
self-destructing software. Do it by politely but firmly refusing to hand over
passwords; then the worst that's at all likely to happen to you is that they
send you home without your gear.

------
hkmurakami
I remember fellow HN'er Steve Kablink saying on twitter that the only reason
he hadn't done a FOIA request on himself is because... they probably have a
list of people who have done a FOIA request on themselves (but that he'd be
doing one soon out of principle).

This kind of heavy handed, precedent setting, dissent-disincentivizing move is
just sad to see happen (and perhaps sadder that I feel completely at its mercy
and feel it affecting my actions concretely)

~~~
reginaldjcooper
I haven't done one because a. what are they going to give me that I don't
already suspect b. it's another data point for them to use in modeling.

I don't turn on DNT in browsers either but I still run AdBlock and restrict
third-party requests by a lot.

------
zobzu
So its still news to people that customs agents are all powerful.. :) turns
out that if you think police was bad, custom is 1000 worse. They can do
literally anything and that's not just the USA. It's the same everywhere in
Europe for example.

Also, I would strongly advise giving out your password if you want to be on
your way. Refusal to give access is generally a huge issue.

------
jaytheham
As an NZ citizen who is outraged at this pathetic kowtowing to US interests,
anyone have any good ideas about who or what I can direct pissed off emails
to? it would be nice to at least feel i've tried to do something

------
waynecochran
Whenever I read these I always think there is more to the story -- usually I
find out later that the "victim" was being a jerk (not that they should hassle
jerks -- but that is human nature).

------
lastwayhome
Lets all just remember that he is at this stage the first for this to happen
to. I'm a kiwi and on a New Zealand watch list for other reasons and this has
never happened to me. No need to get scared, thousands upon thousands of
people fly through nz airports all the time and this never happens. I follow
this sort of thing and its the first I've heard.

------
Cthulhu_
I have bank code on my (encrypted) laptop (and the code itself is in an
encrypted container), I'd like to see them demand I give up the passwords,
then have the US involved in a big corporate espionage lawsuit vs one of the
world's largest banks.

Actually nvm, I don't, I wiped my hard drive before bringing it in for
repairs.

------
elchief
As Bruce Schneier suggests, when crossing a border, encrypt your drives and
change your password to something so long and convoluted you cannot possibly
remember it.

Give you password to a trusted friend (preferably your lawyer) with
instructions not to give you the password until you get home or to your
destination.

------
jrockway
If you're visiting a country you're not a citizen of, bring your data in over
the Internet. (Yes, there's the NSA thing, but it's still unclear what they
can break. My guess is that they have not broken the crypto itself, only some
buggy implementations.) If you're a citizen of the country, encrypt your data
and let the courts figure out whether or not they can compel you to provide
the key. (Or, they can publicly declare that they've broken AES, and get your
data anyway. Either way, it's a win.)

Also strongly agree with patio11 on getting everything in writing. This is now
a criminal investigation. Make sure you have what you need to defend yourself
in court.

~~~
a3n
If the NSA wants your data they already have it, or can get it anytime they
want from you or your service providers. It could change in the future, but at
the moment we're all pwned.

The problem for an essentially law abiding individual crossing a border is
having access to their own data after crossing. Hardware fetishes
notwithstanding, the hardware and its possible loss doesn't matter at all,
it's the data held by the hardware or that the hardware gives access to.

So:

\- If you can, stop buying expensive hardware. It doesn't matter.

\- Don't carry hardware across borders that you can't emotionally or
economically walk away from forever.

\- The only copy of data that you depend on should not be on hardware that you
cross a border with. Have it accessible on a server, the cloud, or with a
colleague that can ship it to you electronically or physically after safely
crossing borders.

\- Accept that you may have to buy cheap disposable hardware after exiting
border checkpoints.

\- Worst case, plan for not having access to any hardware or data after
exiting border checkpoints; you may not have your own hardware, you may not be
able to buy any, and you may not have access to your data at all. Plan C, if
you will.

------
damirkotoric
Are things getting worse every day?

~~~
X4
Every month, but we're getting close to every other week. That's not entirely
because of September 11th, but because politics thinks that they can serve
Government and Corporate requirements better when they rip our data, privacy
and rights.

------
tn13
Terrorism: Terrorism is the systematic use of violence (terror) as a means of
coercion for political purposes.

If you define violence as intimidating (of), physical and mental torture then
all governments top the list.

------
abdulqabiz
Sad. After a long flight one has to go through this. I have gone through my
share. I forgot to declare an apple given by Singapore airline. I kept apple
in my bag in rush while getting out of aircraft, and was so sleepy to realise
I need to declare it. I was held there for sometime. I was fined USD 200. The
most expensive fruit of my life. I didn't even get to keep it with me.

Some of people on airport were like robots, they didn't have any reaction (on
their faces) for my plea.

------
bonemachine
_However, a Customs official has since told him they were searching everything
for objectionable material under the Films, Videos, and Publications
Classification Act 1993._

Yeah right.

------
csense
I don't really travel internationally, but I decided -- about ten years ago,
when people first started talking about the way laptops are searched at
borders -- that if I do feel the urge to travel internationally with my
laptop, I'll dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda on all my gadgets before I cross any
national border.

Of course you want to have VNC / ssh set up ahead of time so you can actually
do stuff...

------
motters
I've tweeted and blogged against the surveillance state many times, so I guess
I must also be on whatever list this guy is on.

------
BrownBuffalo
Lots to consider as well - travel to the US can be rather dicey for foreign
travelers, so here is what you _can_ do to become better prepared for travel
here -
[http://www.cba.org/CBa/PracticeLink/tayp/laptopborder.aspx](http://www.cba.org/CBa/PracticeLink/tayp/laptopborder.aspx)

------
jmspring
Dear HN -- In the US, please start making a distinction between CPB and DHS.
One governs entry into the county the other is responsible for security when
boarding a plane.

CPB -- [http://www.cbp.gov](http://www.cbp.gov) DHS --
[http://www.dhs.gov](http://www.dhs.gov)

------
siculars
Because children.

Because terror.

Because politics.

I'm glad I've already been to NZ.

~~~
vacri
I'd take my chances with the abuses of NZ customs officials than just about
anywhere else in the world. One story does not a broken system make.

This is the same country that told the US to fuck off with their nuclear-
powered ships and when levered through treaties to send personnel to warzones,
sends medical staff rather than troops. It's not some backwards little-Stalin
state.

~~~
selimthegrim
I suppose if I'm not an NZ national (US citizen) they would only pause for 5
seconds (as opposed to none) before similarly making away with my gear? Or
would they be more inclined to do that to an American as a more kingly than
the king type deal?

(I was planning on going there for Easter)

~~~
tikwidd
Just be careful about biological material (NZ has very strict airport
biosecurity) and you'll be fine. I'm a New Zealander and this is the first
time I've heard of something like this happening at the border.

~~~
lostlogin
Sorry, accidentally down voted you. Yes they are very fussy, shoes need to be
clean, no plant material etc.

~~~
chad_oliver
I cancelled out your downvote, so your guilty conscience can rest easy. :-)

I remember when we visited the Philippines, a friend gave us about 20 jars of
a local delicacy to take back home to New Zealand. Which was very kind, except
New Zealand's biosecurity laws meant that we had to throw most of them away at
the border. (We could keep the few that were sealed properly.)

------
BrownBuffalo
My question - does the local border patrol have the ability to break bitlock
encryption on a laptop I bring there? I mean, who from HN travels w/o
something like this done on your computer in the first place?!

~~~
PeterisP
They apparently have the ability to ask you for the password and take your
stuff or refuse entry if you don't cooperate.

IMHO they shouldn't, but that's a different issue.

------
binarymax
Never declare anything, ever. And if they pull you out for a search anyway,
play ignorant.

~~~
samhoggnz
This is terrible advice, especially in the New Zealand context. Playing
ignorant will get you into a lot more trouble than being honest, and will just
fuel the fire more.

------
rumbler
I routinely carry microSD cards filled with 16GB of random numbers.

------
sayanchowdhury
A tight slap to our rights and privacy.

------
slater
surely this...?

------
pranayairan
this is sad

------
alexanderx
Yeah maybe it is his last name.

