

Computer programming will soon reach all Estonian schoolchildren - ledlauzis
http://ubuntulife.net/computer-programming-for-all-estonian-schoolchildren/

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beambot
Stop with the "firsts". This is clearly not the "first time programming was
taught to first graders" -- especially since we were introduced to programming
back in Kindergarten (20+ years ago).

This doesn't need to be a "first" in order to be an honorable pursuit. The
link-bait HN title is really annoying and detracts from the message.

~~~
dsrguru
The HN title is unclear, but the point is that this would be the first time
programming is taught to _all_ first graders in a country. At least that's
what the article's title claim implies: "Computer programming will soon reach
all Estonian schoolchildren." The article itself doesn't seem to suggest a
mandatory curriculum change at the national level, though.

~~~
randomdata
I'm not sure where to dig up historical curriculums to verify my memory, but
I'm fairly certain that programming was a mandatory subject when I was in
first grade. I remember the whole class going to the computer lab and using
BASIC. Education is not handled at the country level here, so it was unlikely
to be country-wide, but the local population served by said school system
would exceed the population of Estonia.

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arkitaip
As a developer I like the idea. As a citizen I wonder why a nation should
prioritize programming before any other skill set? Why not rhetoric, drawing
or dancing? What are the underlying assumptions and goals of teaching
programming at such a young age? Is any of this evidence based?

~~~
doktrin
It is probably economically motivated. Estonia, like many central and eastern
European countries, is seeing strong relative growth in their technology
sectors. Rhetoric, drawing, dancing & carpentry are not exactly as likely to
drive the nation's economy in 2023 when these children graduate from school.

~~~
dimitar
What if they did?

You cannot really predict the future. In the early 90s in my country
(Bulgaria) there was an extreme need of accountants and many programmers
emigrated (and we had massive amounts of engineers due to socialist planning).
Now accountants are not in a short supply and programmers are relatively well
paid.

My point is - you really cannot predict the future. Education is supposed to
prepare you for life, whatever it may serve you, not to grant you a carrier.

I'm all for having a better education. And maybe a little programming literacy
might be really useful. I just seriously hope the Estonian state doesn't
expect its future generations to become a nation of programmers.

~~~
doktrin
I think you may be drawing a fairly extreme conclusion from the article (or my
comment). It's unlikely the Estonian government intends to breed a nation of
programmers. At the same time, it's not exactly reckless to give school age
children the necessary foundation to _become_ developers should they so
desire.

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ed_blackburn
To those of us outside of the USA, at what age are people in First Grade?

~~~
pooriaazimi
Does anyone know of a good comparison between different schooling systems in
the world? I don't mean about their quality, but about stuff like ed asked. Is
kindergarten or preschools are mandatory, How many years of schooling are
required, are different schools are allowed to change the curriculum when they
see fit (teach other subjects), and general "facts" like that.

Of course I can find all about it in Wikipedia, but that would take hours (for
different countries around the world) and I wanted to save some time if
possible. Thanks!

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CGamesPlay
My gut reaction is that this is a good idea. It will definitely help develop
logic and mathematics skills. I am concerned by the focus on "web and mobile",
though. It seems like it would be better to focus on raw computer science for
a program like this.

~~~
ollysb
I'm sure that children are going to be more interested in what they can create
using programming rather than honing their computer science skills. The web
and mobile provide great opportunities for children to play with programming
and make something fun.

~~~
laacz
There already are lots of alternatives, which do not include web or mobile,
but are very illustrative for common programming related stuff. Off the top of
my head there is an old language called LOGO
[<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo_(programming_language)>]. I do not see
need to tie imagination to web and/or mobile.

~~~
ollysb
I sometimes make basic freeby sites for friends. Fully grown adults get really
excited about having their own web page up on the net. I've got to admit I had
fun with LOGO back in the day, but if I'd been able to manipulate the
internet, now that would have been exciting...

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russell
I recall reading a paper that found that the success at the end of the
introductory CS course could be measured before the start of the course by a
simple test. It measured their understanding of sequential execution,
assignment, recursion and a couple of other things. About one-third failed at
the beginning and at the end; one third sort of got it at both ends; and one
third were successful. Almost all students ended in the same triad that they
started in.

To the question. Do young children, say in the first 4 or so grades, show this
division in abilities or do most eventually get it?

~~~
duskwuff
Or - possibly even more interestingly - would introducing these concepts early
help students internalize them?

~~~
ShardPhoenix
(I misclicked and downvoted this instead of upvoting, apologies).

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mmahemoff
It's not a country-wide mandate.

AFAIK no country/state has compulsory programming classes for any level in the
same way they require maths etc ((please tell me if I'm wrong!). If so, that's
rather surprising in 2012.

~~~
EliRivers
Was it also surprising that no school ever had compulsory classes in
agriculture/electricity/plumbing/electronics/medicine/all the other things
that cause such changes in society, or is programming somehow special?

~~~
todsul
Agriculture was compulsory at my high school for the first four years. We
learned to drive tractors in the first year, managed our own vegetable
allotments in the second, administered injections to animals in the third, and
pregnancy tested cows in the forth. No, this wasn't decades ago, this is still
the case at my school today.

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AndrusAsumets
As a self-taught programmer from Estonia, I would have loved having
programming as a subject in the basic school.

Anyhow, the program will not be quite as successful if skilled programmers
with long experience weren't included, or children will not be seeing the full
scale of possibilites programming the computer could give to them. That,
however, will be a tough task since there's a great shortage of developers on
the market, and not all of them would fit neatly into the teaching role.

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rprime
First to teach programming, sure, I remember learning Pascal when I was in the
first grade, that was about 15 years ago.

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maybesofast
In other news, Estonian children go to school naked?

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timc3
Skype as far as I know was started by a swede and a Dane. The Estonian
connection I think comes from having a large engineering office there.

~~~
jkaljundi
Actually the whole idea was brainstormed from day one together with 4 Estonian
founding engineers. Those 4 together with Janus and Niklas had worked together
already for years, first on Tele2 Everyday portals, then Kazaa and Joltid.

~~~
AndrusAsumets
It's a common misconception from both sides. Ask who developed Skype from a
random Dane or Swede on the street, and they will tell you that it was made by
either Danish/Swedish programmers. Approach an Estonian with a question who
actually worked for the funding, marketing etc., and they will probably answer
it was the Estonians.

