
Ask HN: Should I sue drchrono (YC W11) for violating their contract w/ me? - drdal
[1 of 2]: My name is Dr. Dal Bedi. I&#x27;m owner of a medical practice in Va.  I took a chance on a start-up drchrono as my EHR &amp; billing service provider; both services being a vital part of my business. It&#x27;s a decision I wish I never made.  In the past 5 mo, I&#x27;ve had massive issues w&#x2F; the drchrono service.  The setup of their billing &amp; collections services has taken 4 months due to repeated, inept errors by outsourced-to-India drchrono billing staff.  Other drchrono users have been complaining about similar issues &amp; have asked for refunds: http:&#x2F;&#x2F;bit.ly&#x2F;1doMER9 &amp; http:&#x2F;&#x2F;bit.ly&#x2F;1fL8dzH. I&#x27;ve forwarded pages of errors to the drchrono staff http:&#x2F;&#x2F;cl.ly&#x2F;image&#x2F;200i2D2y1s2R , http:&#x2F;&#x2F;cl.ly&#x2F;image&#x2F;1z0g230x0N1I , http:&#x2F;&#x2F;cl.ly&#x2F;image&#x2F;3H072F0f3k43 , http:&#x2F;&#x2F;cl.ly&#x2F;image&#x2F;0k3G1t2h3h3w , http:&#x2F;&#x2F;cl.ly&#x2F;image&#x2F;0V1x2h3E2m43 , escalated w&#x2F; their support team for months, and finally escalated to the CEO, Michael Nusimow.  When that proved ineffective, I asked for a refund for the months when the service wasn&#x27;t functional, all while being a committed customer w&#x2F;o a single outstanding balance. This past Xmas Eve, drchrono sent me an email raising my monthly fee 3x from $1.5k&#x2F;mo to $4.5k&#x2F;mo starting Jan 1st, 2014 w&#x2F;o any reason given -- even tho. we have a signed contract which sets the price for their services and can&#x27;t be changed.
======
Skeletor
drchrono cofounder here.

I spoke with Dr. Dal on the phone and we worked out his issues. We try to make
all of our users happy, but from time to time things don't work out. The
drchrono team and I are working to change healthcare doctor by doctor and
healthcare is a hard space to fix.

Dr. Dal was using our RCM (Revenue Cycle Management) service where we do all
of the staff work for billing for the Doctor in exchange for a percentage of
all of the insurance collections done in a month. There is a monthly minimum
fee for the first few months the service ramps up, but for all of these
contracts the percentage of billing fees is designed to exceed the monthly
minimum in a steady state. In all the months Dr. Dal was using our RCM service
he was paid on all of his medical claims in our system, but his account still
never exceeded the minimum fee.

We raised rates for all of our RCM customers whose contracts weren't exceeding
the minimums across the board. We gave customers several months notice about
these rate changes and helped any customer that wanted to do their own billing
or port to another service do so.

All of our users have access to download all of their data at any time. Users
can also synch all of their data on an ongoing basis to Box's Enterprise HIPAA
compliant storage. We put up a blog post to highlight these features and give
instructions for users with links to our knowledge base:
[https://drchrono.com/blog/backup-records-outside-
drchrono/](https://drchrono.com/blog/backup-records-outside-drchrono/)

I think it's important that users always have access to their own data to use
with other services at their convenience and to have for their own safety and
peace of mind.

------
codingdave
Yes, file the suit.

Lawsuits serve more purposes than just taking an issue to trial - they are
also a mechanism to force the resolution of an issue when more reasonable
conflict resolution methods have failed.

Nobody really wants to go to trial over stuff like this - but it will force
them to stop ignoring the situation. (Or, if their story differs from yours,
it will force their side to come forward as well.)

It is almost always less painful to settle outside of court once a suit is
filed, and odds are that is exactly what they will do if you file the suit.

------
phren0logy
Speaking as a physician, and with the caveat that I assume Dr. Bedi wouldn't
waste his time if this story wasn't mostly accurate, I want to express my
frustration - this is why we can't have nice things!

Medical bureaucracies are very reticent to chose software from companies that
don't have a long track record. Examples like this are why we have to suffer
through 1980s era software to get our work done.

~~~
drdal
Yes, this family member of mine who's in the start-up world really encouraged
me to go with drchrono originally because he wanted me to be able to take
advantage of the newest technology in my field. This whole process has been
extremely stressful and frustrating.

------
xauronx
Having worked in the medical billing industry (supported a "competitor" to
DrChrono), I've seen many complaints like this come through our e-mail system.
It's not always 100% as cut and dry as it should be. The medical billing
industry is a huge disaster. One lady threatened to sue us because we weren't
doing her billing, but when pointed toward to multiple requests for the
government mandated information (CMNs) she must provide, she said "she didn't
know what that meant" (and that's with support staff more than willing to
answer those questions, instead she apparently just trashed the emails).

Other times medicare would just pull the rug out from under us and enforce
some new requirement that would takes weeks to implement.

And other times it surely was our billing company's fault. Something was
billed with the wrong diagnosis code, then the insurance company takes too
long to get back (or doesn't at all, or the system has a bug and doesn't
process it), then it falls off the biller's radar and gets forgotten.

Either way, you should get a reply from them letting you know WHY your billing
isn't being done, when it's going to be fixed, and what steps will be taken to
avoid it happening again. I think there are really two separate issues here,
the quality of service (which is debatable whether you should pursue legal
action) and the price increase (which you probably should get some legal
council about).

Regardless, the medical billing industry is a pain in the ass and I'm so glad
to be out of that line of work.

*If a 1990s moped can be seen as a competitor to a ferrari

------
watty
I think you've made the correct move posting here (since it's on the front
page). If you don't get rectification this week I would most certainly sue.
You shouldn't "feel bad" that they're a start up. They're screwing you over
and practicing bad business.

Pretty crappy stuff from a YC company but this doesn't surprise me anymore.

------
digitalengineer
I understand you posted this here. If this business (yes, a startup is a
business) doens't feel it should respond to client's questions and even a
freaking legal letter (even though there are clear contracts in place) well,
then "getting the word out" could just push them in your direction. No sane
developer/designer would want to work for this specific business. I don't even
know them, but based upon your post my mind is thinking they'll probably go
out of business soon. I bet we'll see a statement from them at this very spot
soon. It'd better not be a bs statement.

------
relaunched
If what you say is accurate, the only other thing I would try is reaching out
to one or more of their investors / board members. It might not help, but as a
paying customer, I'm sure they'd want to know (and can make a call and get
your grievance bumped to the top of the line).

Since your representing that your business is in jeopardy, do what you need to
do. It's great that you are sensitive to the plight of startups and don't want
to do anything that might hurt their chances of success. However, they also
have to live up to their end of the deal. If they aren't communicating with
you, that's a huge problem.

~~~
robbiea
| the only other thing I would try is reaching out to one or more of their
investors / board members

I think that's what he is doing right now :)

~~~
drdal
I don't know the valley very well so it's hard for me to navigate it. I did
ask a family member who's in the startup world for advice (he suggested I post
here) and he tried reaching out to a few of his contacts but I don't believe
it went anywhere. The most frustrating thing for me has been the CEO's
attitude. From my very first interaction with him he seemed uninterested in
helping resolve this. If I were the CEO of a startup, I would be paying super
close attention to my userbase and their concerns. I just can't understand why
he hasn't jumped at the chance to make things right with me and the other
doctors who have had similar problems.

~~~
mekoka
You should be getting a reaction in about 5, 4, 3, ...

------
pg
As we say in the guidelines,

[http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

HN is a news site, not a forum for people with issues with companies we've
funded (even when concealed as Ask HNs). So I'm killing this. If you have an
issue with Dr Chrono, please contact them directly.

------
idealform01
This is actually pretty fascinating that you posted this here. Really
highlights how companies can't hide from a bad customer experience anywhere.
People are going to find out if your treating your customers badly.

I wonder if this thread is going to get deleted soon?

~~~
toomuchtodo
[https://web.archive.org/web/20140204160630/https://news.ycom...](https://web.archive.org/web/20140204160630/https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7178004)

------
cmottau
If a company doesn't treat you properly and refuses to help, cut your losses
and move on.

Switch to athenahealth. By far the best company in the space (my wife works
there so I'm biased), but you can dig in to their financials (NSDQ: ATHN) and
see for yourself.

[http://www.athenahealth.com/](http://www.athenahealth.com/)

Medical billing is an incredibly broken process, so I applaud anyone trying to
fix the problem. There is never an excuse for treating customers poorly,
however. If you do, you will no longer have a business.

------
chime
If everything you said is true, then I feel terrible because I've recommended
DrChrono to at least 10 different independent physicians in the last couple of
years, two of whom I know use it. I regret that I recommended it without
actually trying it out for myself and judged it based on their marketing
material and association with the YC brand.

I hope there is more to the story here and maybe they haven't been able to
explain their side well due to reasons beyond their control (legal, contracts
etc.) I come across a lot of physicians who run their own practice here in
Florida and DrChrono has been my goto answer to their EMR/EHR maladies. I
really don't want to recommend AllScripts or EPIC.

------
LeoSolaris
Sue

This is business impacting, and while emotionally, I can understand your
desire to help out a new entrant in the field... they are violating your
trust, endangering your livelihood, and extorting money out of you against
written contracts. The off contract fee increase may be the saving grace that
lets you legally out of the contract early, depending on how the contract is
worded.

There is likely a set amount of time to wait for compliance, but after it is
over, I would not hesitate to seek redress of grievances. You're talking about
your patients data and your income, which should be your first and second
priorities.

Note that I am not a lawyer.

------
kohanz
HN accounts of drchrono co-founders, although both last commented over a year
ago:

[http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=d8niel](http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=d8niel)

[http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=Skeletor](http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=Skeletor)

------
RawData
Yes sue. Stop messing around and sue, today...now. Stop reading this, pick up
the phone, call your lawyer and tell him to file the papers today.

~~~
xsace
This. Startups are not an excuse for crap services, and this should never
become something acceptable.

------
jackmaney
Don't let the fact that drchrono is a startup stop you from suing. Drchrono is
a business. They've breached their contract. Tear them apart. If possible, put
them out of business.

------
priyakanth024
I work for a similar company. When our clients encounter issues like these
(esp when money is involved) we will be sure enough to respond quickly and if
it escalates to the CEO, I believe, we always pay the price in terms of
compensation or apologizing for our mistakes and some clients just leave us.
But even after escalating your problem to the CEO and you get such response, I
think you should leave drchrono and if you don't get compensation back I think
it's appropriate to sue them.

BTW the company that I work for is called CareCloud (we are established in
revenue cycle management)

------
Edmond
This sounds like growing-pains for a growing business that has perhaps bitten
more than it can chew. I would suggest you wait, now that you are surely going
to get their attention :)

If they don't respond to this, then by all means take them to small claims
court.

------
drdal
[2 of 2]: I finally sent them a demand letter 2+ weeks ago stating that I
wanted to leave the service & asking for my patient & billing data back. They
haven't responded to it despite requests from me and from my attorney. My
attorney says the next step is to file a lawsuit against them. I don't want to
do that to a startup, but they are holding my patient data hostage in their
system and refusing to respond to the demand letter. Without that data, my
ability to do business is in jeopardy. Any suggestions on what I should do? I
badly need my data back.

~~~
Dirlewanger
If what you've said is all true, and you've thoroughly gone over with your
attorney all of the grievances and have enough data to back it up, _and_ they
have yet to respond within a reasonable timeframe through a legal channel,
then go for their jugular and take them out. Don't relent on these types of
offenses, doubly so if they are a start-up. Without knowing too much about the
founders, say this kind of activity goes unchecked, and continues rampant
within their business despite still being successful. That could potentially
send signals to departing entrepreneurs that this kind of behavior is OK and
that they could very well get away with it as well.

Go for the kill.

------
otikik
The same way that health issues are better discussed with a doctor, legal
issues are better discussed with a lawyer.

~~~
npetrell
I don't think he is asking for legal advice. I think it actually shows a lot
of courtesy to post here. It seems to me that he understands lawsuits can
destroy a young company and simply wants to find out if anyone in the startup
community has any ideas on how to better resolve the issue or if anyone might
be able to offer non-legal assistance. He clearly has a lawyer to advise him
on his legal remedies.

~~~
drdal
Yes, exactly. I really didn't not want to go that route and reached out to
drchrono several times but to no avail.

