

Keyboard Manufacturers Are All Slackers - AndyKelley
http://thejoshwolfe.blogspot.com/2009/12/keyboard-manufacturers-are-all-slackers.html

======
devin
It's called n-key rollover. Yes, many companies make absolute crap for
keyboards, and yet people actually make fun of me at work for buying a 250$
keyboard. Would they ever suggest 250$ is too much to spend on, say, a bed? I
doubt it.

elitekeyboards.com <\-- the best keyboards money can buy. n-key rollover,
topre capacitive switches, etc.

geekhack.org is a great reference.

~~~
eru
> elitekeyboards.com

They look like ordinary bad keyboards. I prefer the Kinesis contoured
(<http://images.google.com/images?q=kinesis%20contoured>).

~~~
rit
> They look like ordinary bad keyboards.

They aren't (in my opinion, and by basis of the construction thereof). The
keyboards they carry are japanese imports most of which use Cherry switches.
They also, unlike the Das Keyboard, have well built controllers. Pricey, but
worth it. I adore the Majestouch Click Otakus that I got from Elitekeyboards.

Contoured keyboards are in some cases an acquired taste, in others unusable. I
have an old hand injury that makes it tough for me to use something like the
Kinesis which puts my hands in awkward positions. I've been forced to find
decent standard keyboards, which have consistent keystrikes [which a membrane
won't provide].

For what it's worth, I find this article to be a good read on what the deal is
with quality keyboard switches, including Cherry and Alp clones:

[http://hothardware.com/cs/blogs/mrtg/archive/2009/03/09/mech...](http://hothardware.com/cs/blogs/mrtg/archive/2009/03/09/mechanical-
key-switch-keyboards-demystified.aspx)

There's another article and I believe it was on my bookmarks at the last job
and I didn't copy it over, but if I find it i'll add it in.

EDIT: Keep in mind also good switches only take you so far - the problems the
Das Keyboards [which use Cherry switches] have had is poor controllers. BUT,
even with a good controller, my understanding is USB has a limitation on N-Key
rollover to a low number of simultaneous key presses. Most of the quality
keyboards come with PS2 adapters and recommend using PS2 if you want full
bandwidth.

ANOTHER EDIT: This I believe is the "other" guide I was thinking of. It gives
an overview of several "mechanical" keyboards which may be useful for those
looking for an alternative to the $20 freebie their computer came with:
[http://www.overclock.net/computer-
peripherals/491752-mechani...](http://www.overclock.net/computer-
peripherals/491752-mechanical-keyboard-guide.html) ... Personally, since I've
started using mechanicals I've had most of the end-of-day wrist pain I used to
experience disappear.

------
tezza
It has to do with the in hardware device key mapping.

Most keyboards use resistance circuits to tell which key has been depressed.
When you depress more than 1 key most of these designs cannot tell between the
values.

Modifier Keys like shift, control are mostly separately monitored and thus
independent.

See the matrix on this page:: [http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-your-own-
Roll-Up-Keyboa...](http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-your-own-Roll-Up-
Keyboard/)

------
harpastum
For my Mid-2009 13" Macbook Pro, I can press up to 6 alpha-numeric keys and 5
function keys (shift, option, control, command, function) at once, for eleven
total keys. OS X users can test this for themselves using the "Keyboard
Viewer" accessible through System Prefs/Universal Access.

While some manufacturers may be slackers, it doesn't appear that they all are.

~~~
city41
I'm limited to 5 alpha numeric keys, and I get the Keyboard viewer via System
Preferences > Keyboard > "Show Keyboard & Character Viewer in menu bar"

There's also a lot to be said about the feel and quality of the keyboard. We
press these little buttons thousands of times a day, millions of times in our
lifetime. A clunky, overly loud keyboard, or one that requires too much travel
is a terrible thing to have to work with.

~~~
eru
If you want to avoid too much travel, you should not be using a qwerty layout.
E.g. Dvorak optimises for less finger travel.

~~~
rufo
I think he means up/down travel, not how much your fingers move when typing.

~~~
eru
Yes, that may be possible.

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ynniv
It amuses me when people are surprised by product development. Here are the
rules:

    
    
      - if the consumer will buy it, it isn't a flaw
      - if the consumer won't pay extra for it, it isn't a feature
    

This is how _all_ products in _all_ markets are developed. On the rare
occasion that a product developer takes it upon themselves to deliver a better
product they will make less profit (reward), and therefore be less competitive
and more likely to fail as a business. These companies are often called
hobbies. The only way to improve products is to improve ("educate") consumers,
and I'm not holding my breath on that one.

~~~
jimmyjim
> This is how _all_ products in _all_ markets are developed.

Why are you saying that in such absolute terms? As if they were the defining
features that govern the markets.

If that was really how it worked, what do you say to start-ups who make risky
entrepreneurial bets on a daily basis?

The usefulness of something is not always readily obvious. It takes time to
internalize, and often we just won't get it unless it's been thoroughly
marketed to us, or suggested by friends and peers.

We can amply ridicule keyboard manufacturers for their lack of any real
breakthroughs or innovation in recent years.

Finally, about what I'd like to see in keyboards: 1) I've a Microsoft Natural
4000 keyboard (
[http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/events/mshardware/images/...](http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/events/mshardware/images/image003.jpg)
) and I wish that instead of the 'zoom scrollbar' that's between the split,
there was a mouse trackball. 2) The Compose and Alt Gr keys being standard in
all keyboards. We live in the 21st century -- it's a globalized world. I want
to be able to input foreign characters with ease (but as is, I've mapped my
right alt to Alt Gr and right Ctrl to Compose - and I actually can input
characters like this with much ease:
áßðfghïœø¶æœ©®bññµçåéëþüíúóö¹²³€¹²³¤€’¥×÷¤€‘Á§ÐÄÅÉËÜÍÓÖÚ¦‘’ «» “”, etc.)

~~~
ynniv
_If that was really how it worked, what do you say to start-ups who make risky
entrepreneurial bets on a daily basis?_

Make things that people want? [ <http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html> ]

 _we just won't get it unless it's been thoroughly marketed to us, or
suggested by friends and peers._

Yes, there is no demand for something novel without appropriately educated
consumers. (I swear I just said that...)

 _We can amply ridicule keyboard manufacturers for their lack of any real
breakthroughs or innovation in recent years._

Why? They have made great strides in creating exactly what consumers want: a
$20 surprisingly durable USB keyboard with a 104 key layout (ex. Dell CJ651).
The original poster's motivation is his realization that he is not the average
consumer, and thus is not satisfied with the average product.

 _Finally, about what I'd like to see in keyboards_

We all want a pony. I'll make you one, but it will cost $1,000 - I presume
that you're okay with this.

Your extended character input problems have nothing to do with your keyboard -
Mac OS X can easily input most of them with a small number of strokes on that
same keyboard. You could switch the keys you speak of on Windows with
different drivers.

------
fragmede
Keyboard Manufacturers Are All Slackers...

Keyboards aren't going to fundamentally change but there are manufacturers who
aren't slackers, who are trying. (As far as the original article - use ctrl,
alt and shift - they're designed as modifiers - for your Metroid III action.)
Think of the Anykey on older Gateway keyboards[1], or the Compaq keyboards
with the split spacebar where the left half was actually backspace[2], or the
new-ish Dell keyboards where the layout of the six keys above the arrow keys
has been changed to feature a huge delete key[3]. The Windows key, a long
loathed key by many a gamer, forced back to the desktop in the midst of a
critical section. Most have only come to accept since it pretends it isn't
there as many games disable it. And even then, it only uses up previously
unused space which doesn't moving other keys around.

These little 'innovations' annoy me, and I'm sure many others, to no end.
Innovations that ended up on the scrap heap of innovation and change-is-bad-
ism.

Keyboards /cannot/ fundamentally change because unless you magically replaced
all the keyboards in the world at once, installed user-base just has too much
inertia.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_AnyKey>

[2] <http://lowendmac.com/mail/07/art/keyb.jpg> \- Actually, that left half
was actually remappable, which caused unending complaints due to unexpected
behavior.

[3]
[http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2374/2011622454_dfe08bfcda.jp...](http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2374/2011622454_dfe08bfcda.jpg?v=0)

------
fragmede
Others have said - buy a more expensive keyboard. That solves the complaint in
the article.

Except it doesn't. 'N-key rollover' doesn't exist as a market differentiator.
Unless you've gotten frustrated by this problem, decided it was actually worth
your time to research it, how could you know that 'N-key rollover' is the
differentiator you're looking for? The market has spoken, and 'cheap' is
better than N-key rollover. Or 'good enough', anyway. It's 2009 and the writer
still can't play Metroid III. I'd bet that there'll still be the same problem
in 2019, even though the technical solution has existed since keyboards were
invented.

~~~
city41
But if the OP is really concerned about a quality experience playing Metroid
III, shouldn't he be using a gamepad?

It's 2009 and I still can't type very well with my flight stick either.

~~~
Deestan
Excellent point.

Why are people discussing 250$ for a game-able keyboard when you can buy a
decent gamepad for less than 50$?

------
philk
There are keyboards out there that support more than 3 keys at once (for
example the Gigabyte GK-K8000 which has support for 'n-key rollover').

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_(key)>

[http://www.gigabyte-
usa.com/Products/Keyboard/Products_Overv...](http://www.gigabyte-
usa.com/Products/Keyboard/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2789&ProductName=GK-K8000)

------
whalesalad
Save for web in Photoshop is Command + Option + Shift + S, and I do it dozens
of times a day. Every Mac I have ever used has been able to do this :)

~~~
djcapelis
Modifier keys are usually specially dealt with on the matrix of wires in your
keyboard to make that work. The issue is how many non-modifier keys the
keyboard can register at once.

That said, other comments note that Apple seems to lay a dense matrix that
allows for high numbers of simultaneous key presses to be registered even for
non-modifier keys. Perhaps this finally explains some of why their keyboards
cost $50 instead of $3. (Definitely not all, but if this is true, it's a nice
touch.)

~~~
riobard
Tried on my Unibody MacBook. Can register 6 non-modifier keys at once.

I like the feel of the keys actually. Not sure what mechanism it's using, but
definitely much better than all other notebooks.

Also found a 1991 UK-made IBM Model M. The clicking sound is such a great joy
:)

------
oomkiller
My Das Keyboard (Mechanical), has no trouble with this

------
ableal
What puzzles me is that even a simple USB hub (so that you can plug in a mouse
or a pen) seems beyond most manufacturers. A few months ago, I managed to snag
a keyboard with two USB ports and a scroll-wheel (the SlimStarPro from
Genius), which promptly vanished from local retailer shelves.

Not having reason to care about key rollover issues, I'd gladly trade the top
rows of special-function buttons for a single small trackball in the wrist-
rest area (as seen in early laptops such as the Apple Powerbook 100 of the
90s). I suppose it's "inconceivable" to sell that nowadays ...

~~~
randallsquared
_I suppose it's "inconceivable" to sell that nowadays .._

Did you try Googling? I felt lucky, and on that page was this link:

<http://www.fentek-ind.com/kbemmtbusb2b.htm>

~~~
ableal
Thanks, appreciated. Not completely extinct, then - but it seems to live in a
quite small niche ;-)

