
Denver voters consider next frontier in decriminalizing drugs: magic mushrooms - petethomas
https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-denver-magic-mushrooms-20190506-story.html
======
dpflan
If you want to see some more comments and discussion, check out this HN post
from 3 months ago.

>
> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19069200](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19069200)

Interested in seeing what discussion emerges this time!

------
samcday
"I’m a different guy. I’m fun to be around. Once I couldn’t even cry. Now I
can."

This really punched me in the feels.

It also sucks that Justin preferred not to share his last name for fear of
retribution for possessing some fungus that occurs naturally in the wild.

Kinda reminds me of the veterans in the US who have been trying to lobby the
VA to stop being jerks about cannabis. They say it helps with their PTSD.
Currently we don't have a lot of scientific certainty on whether it actually
_does_ help or not because of the lack of research. But even putting that
aside, it's still kinda absurd that we dictate which naturally growing plants
people are allowed to possess / cultivate / smoke / ingest / whatever.

~~~
ummonk
Out of curiosity, would you say the same thing about opium poppy? (Serious
question, not a gotcha; opium seems to have a much clearer harmful and
addictive impact and it seems to be very difficult to prevent a substantial
fraction of people from getting addicted to it when it is freely available;
would you prioritize principle or practicality in the case of opium?)

~~~
beat
A substantial fraction of people become addicted to opiates when they are
_not_ freely available, too. Which begs the question... is _addiction_ the
problem? Or are the problems consequences of restricted availability?

To put it another way... if heroin were legalized tomorrow, would you start
shooting up? Is illegality the best (or only) way to prevent addiction? Look
at tobacco. It's legal. Most people don't use it, because it's addictive and
dangerous, and usage rates have dropped considerably due to social pressures
and awareness campaigns.

When proposing (or defending) a solution, make sure you ask yourself if it
actually solves the problem.

~~~
TallGuyShort
Is illegality even _A_ way to prevent addiction? Because most of the data in
the US indicates no correlation between enforcement and addiction rates. We
say we enforce drug laws for people's protection, catch them with drugs, throw
them in jail and say, "see? this is what happens when you take drugs." The
discussion around Denver's laws has often been on the assumption that before
Colorado legalized marijuana, no one had access to marijuana. They throw
around statistics with out before / after comparisons, or without full
context. One famous example was a guy who drove into a parked cop car - a test
confirmed that some time in the last 6 months he had smoked marijuana.
Nevermind that his BAC was astronomical. Anti-marijuana headlines for days on
that one.

~~~
Misdicorl
Yes, absolutely. There is a significant population who will not do something
if its illegal. Full stop.

~~~
TallGuyShort
Maybe, but there's clearly and consistently no correlation between _enforcing_
said illegality and addiction: [https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-
analysis/issue-bri...](https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-
analysis/issue-briefs/2018/03/more-imprisonment-does-not-reduce-state-drug-
problems). In both of the specific cases mentioned in the article and my
comment, it's a lower jurisdiction stopping enforcement of a higher
jurisdiction's laws. Marijuana is still illegal in Colorado, but everyone
knows that the TSA are the only ones enforcing it.

There's also the fact that a lot of black-market stuff only ever happens
_because_ it's illegal, which is why countries that decriminalize prostitution
and take a treat-instead-of-prosecute approach tend to see benefits in
addition to fewer people in jail for the associated crimes. I know there are
people that won't break the law, but there are also people that make beaucoup
bucks breaking the law because they're good at it. Which one wins out? No
idea. Not sure if there's a way to get data on that beyond the enforcement vs.
addiction studies.

~~~
Misdicorl
Look, you prefaced your comment with a question that has a simple answer. You
don't like that answer because it doesn't fit your premise that the law is
_never_ helpful to _anyone_. But it _is_ the answer.

There is plenty of room to discuss the effectiveness/costs of making drugs
illegal and how (potential) enforcement should be handled. To whit, your
response is answering an entirely different question than the one you
originally posed!

 _EDIT_ Response to below. I can't understand your position. How is the data
we do have even remotely relevant? Its a study about enforcement and so
presupposes a population that is excluded by the very question posed...

~~~
TallGuyShort
No I don't like your answer because you have zero data to back it up and it
contradicts very closely related data that we do have.

------
pier25
People who know nothing about drugs always put all psychoactive substances
into the same basket which is a tremendous mistake.

Psilocybin (the psychedelic compound in magic mushrooms) is non addictive, has
many health benefits, and huge potential for personal growth. Much like
ayahuasca, I very much doubt people would abuse magic mushrooms recreatively
like they do with cocaine, or even alcohol.

~~~
maxxxxx
You will always find people who will abuse something. Happened with alcohol,
TV, internet and will happen with mushrooms. The question is whether it’s more
costly and damaging to prohibit something vs controlling it. I think people
are slowly learning that prohibition is worse than letting some people abuse
something.

If we want to make a drug illegal it should be alcohol anyway. It causes huge
numbers of deaths every year. It’s probably the most dangerous drug we have.

Clarification: All I m trying to say is that it's dangerous to say "there is
no addiction risk in mushrooms. They are totally benign". If you say that it
will be really easy for opponents to find counterexamples. Instead we should
say they are not more dangerous than already legal things so there is no point
in prohibiting mushrooms while other similarly harmful things are legal.

~~~
r00fus
If abuse was possible perhaps we’d have the cartels selling magic mushrooms -
if that’s not a thing maybe (as Pollan concluded in his book about
psychedelics) “place and setting make a big difference “ in efficacy.

~~~
maxxxxx
Abuse is possible with almost anything. People abuse food, cars, social media,
politics and a lot of other things. I agree that mushrooms are probably not as
addictive as other drugs but declaring that nobody will abuse them makes no
sense.

~~~
RankingMember
From what I understand psilocybin is sort of like melatonin in that you get no
added benefit from taking more than the dose that has the intended effect. You
won't die from taking too much of either. It's easier to OD and die on water
than either of those substances, and at that point, isn't the definition of
abuse becoming a bit too broad?

~~~
maxxxxx
I hear similar things about Marijuana but I have seen people who smoked way
too much until their personal and professional lives suffered. One thing is
physical dependency but there is also psychological dependency.

All I m trying to say is that it's dangerous to say "there is no addiction
risk in mushrooms. They are totally benign". If you say that it will be really
easy for opponents to find counterexamples. Instead we should say they are not
more dangerous than already legal things so there is no point in prohibiting
mushrooms while other similarly harmful things are legal. .

------
hirundo
Fresh magic mushrooms have been effectively legal in nearby New Mexico for 14
years, since a 2005 Court of Appeals ruling. This doesn't seem to have caused
an appreciable rise in magic mushroom drug culture, or problems with abuse. I
would expect the same result in Denver: pretty much nothing.

Weird how taking that same fresh mushroom and sticking it in a dehydrator
converts it into a felony to posses.

[https://www.abqjournal.com/news/state/apmush06-15-05.htm](https://www.abqjournal.com/news/state/apmush06-15-05.htm)

~~~
marak830
Note: I agree with the fact it shouldn't be illegal.

Main point, fucking hard to od on mushrooms when you can barely walk ;-)

------
chiefalchemist
Sidebar -

God bless the LA Times for getting the terminology correct. Keyword:
"decriminalize". My temper is max'ed out on the mainstream media saying
"legalize" (mainly when reporting on pot), as if Uncle Sam and the federal
level laws suddenly disappeared.

For all intents and purposes "legalized" qualifies as fake news. It is
intentionally misleading. And if it's negligence, that's not any better.

------
techntoke
Magic mushrooms and other entheogens have amazing potential, but also a lot of
risks. Ketamine clinics are already a thing. I think a lower dose (microdose)
prescription makes sense for certain people. Anything more, will probably
require additional planning and supervision.

~~~
bagacrap
What are the risks?

~~~
agilebyte
It enhances the feelings you are experiencing already. If those are negative
to begin with, I'd worry about people having a bad trip and hurting themselves
(even inadvertently like stumbling into traffic).

------
Theodores
Magic mushrooms were a freely available crop of sorts when I was a student. I
went picking them one day with a bunch of friends. This was enlightening.

First of all there is being outside in the countryside with a group of
friends, roaming the hillside. If the pressures of assignments are getting to
you this is a welcome change of scene. Particularly if there is some 'rave
style' party that this expedition is in preparation for.

Next there was the challenge to one's perceptions about finding the things.
Initially it looks like a hopeless task. But you find one, then you find
another and soon you get to be very good at seeing the things.

From a very small age we get told that wild mushrooms are going to kill you.
So how do you know that you are picking the magic ones and not the ones that
will be as deadly as getting bitten by a snake?

But, you don't end up picking the wrong ones, they are all good.

Coupled with that is the other things that can get you - creepy crawlies, bugs
that you can't see, that sort of stuff. Again, not a problem in reality.

There is obviously proof in the pudding, however, before getting as far as
tasting some slimy mushroom brew heavily flavoured with something like Ribena
you have accomplished at least three things that you can feel good about -
physical exercise, having a laugh with friends and doing something that you
thought was beyond you in just collecting the things.

So I think that this legalisation thing should insist on a 'trip' each time, a
trip outdoors to do all of the prep. No commercialisation of the product
(selling the things to people who don't do the outdoors bit). A great time can
be had, and going outdoors to pick some other herbs, e.g. some rosemary or
some chives, is never going to be anywhere near as fun.

Keep it recreational and spirits will be lifted. This privately - non
sociable, non-recreational - partaking of the active ingredient on one's
lonesome just isn't going to hit the mark in quite the same way. Might as well
micro-dose alcohol at home alone (half bottle of wine with a meal, every
night) if that is the approach. This is alcoholism, which contrasts with
alcohol enjoyed out and about in socially engaging experiences.

I fear Denver are well meaning but going to get this wrong.

------
village-idiot
One of the interesting sociological aspects of humanity is that mountain
people by and large don’t want to be told what to do. It’s why escaped slaves
for centuries have fled to mountainous regions, and why alpine states have
been among the first to reject federal rules around marijuana.

Psychologically, it appears that introverts prefer mountains and forests,
while extroverts prefer plains and beaches.

------
0n0n0m0uz
We should all congratulate drugs for winning the war.

------
willio58
Great. Mushrooms have been a great influence in my life, and I recommend them
to anyone with a little introspection who feels a lack of perspective in life.

------
nerdkid93
This is interesting. I read an article a few years ago talking about how
further research into the active compounds in magic mushrooms might lead to
breakthroughs in Alzheimer's and other neural degeneration diseases.

------
beepboopbeep
I'm happy to see that the usual comments of "I remember tripping at a
festival/college and it was rad!" Are being replaced by medicinal based
commentary.

------
caprese
just because the dialogue is open right now, here is something about a
different drug: I would like to see the government do something about
fentanyl, people across all socioeconomic classes are dying and they wouldn't
be if they knew what they were consuming.

"RIP everyone has their demons" really doesn't accurately describe that
"someone laced their cocaine with fentanyl"

testing kits exist, but a regulated purchase would fix this

~~~
andrewla
My confusion stems from the fact that I don't know why people are lacing drugs
with fentanyl. It's unclear to me because most of the stuff I see written
about fentanyl talks about it like it's a poison that kills people -- why not
add arsenic instead, which also kills people? As I understand it drug dealers
rely on repeat business, and it seems like bad business to sell tainted goods.

~~~
shawnz
It's a cheap, potent opioid which its users tend to enjoy. It is just hard to
dose accurately because of the extreme potency. It's a race to the bottom: How
cheap can we make the product without accidentally killing all the users?

------
robmiller
This has been a fascinating decade or so watching the children of the 60's
make their way into positions of senior governance/policymaking.

~~~
tclancy
People who were old enough to remember the 60s are older than you think.
People getting into senior levels now would be closer to Generation X than
Baby Boomers.

------
mkoryak
What is the difference between decriminalization and legalization in this
context?

~~~
seattle_spring
Decriminalization turns minor possession into basically a traffic ticket. It
would still be a misdemeanor or felony to sell or possess large quantities,
but it lowers the penalties again users and the priority against prosecuting
them.

Legalization would most likely mean sanctioned avenues for legal sales, as
well as obviously being totally legal to possess and consume at your own home,
above age 21.

~~~
Scoundreller
> but it lowers [...] the priority against prosecuting them

Does it? It turns a cost-centre for the state into a profit-centre.

Speeding tickets are handed out like candy during the safest road conditions
when it’s also the safest to be outside. I never see speedtraps around a sharp
bend when it’s dark and rainy, where they would deliver the most safety value.

~~~
seattle_spring
Imagine how they'd be handed out if the fine was $1500 and 6 months jailtime
instead of just $150.

------
dpflan
Could this move help get mushrooms into research in Colorado? Like this recent
move by Imperial College London's Centre for Psychedelics Research (not
decrim, but research)

>
> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19756067](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19756067)

> [https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/190994/imperial-launches-
> wor...](https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/190994/imperial-launches-worlds-
> first-centre-psychedelics/)

------
Causality1
Good. Even if there were no benefits at all, there is zero constitutional
justification for the government outlawing a private citizen from growing and
consuming anything she or he pleases.

------
kingkawn
Even if the outcomes of drug use are undesirable the criminal justice system
is not the way to mitigate them.

------
YeahSureWhyNot
progressive societies are building high speed train networks and clean energy
farms while american public is busy discussing which bathroom transgenders
should use and legalizing drugs while consuming 3x more products and producing
10x more trash than world average.

~~~
chibg10
Not sure what societies you're referring to. The UK is trying to figure out
Brexit (still), France is dealing with the Yellow Vests, and the overall
biggest political topic in the EU is restricting immigration.

America has its problems but it's not like the rest of the democratic world is
earning a gold star atm either. And it's not like it gets better outside the
democratic countries...

