
We are moving the Roslyn code to GitHub - taspeotis
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vbteam/archive/2015/01/10/we-re-moving-to-github.aspx
======
bcantrill
This is getting terrifyingly close to my prediction that Microsoft
should/would/will buy GitHub. When I first started predicting this two or so
years ago, it was mainly for its comedic value (it always got laughs, followed
by "yeah, they should!" followed by nervous laughter followed by "wait, do you
think they would actually do that?!"), but after the open sourcing of .NET I
honestly think anything is possible. Especially because the counter to MSFT
buying GitHub was always "but... CodePlex!", and here they are explicitly
moving a high-profile project from CodePlex to GitHub. Scary!

~~~
tdicola
What does MS gain? Is online source code storage really going to be a million
or billion dollar business for them? It seems like it's just a race to the
bottom with costs, just like Dropbox, Box, etc. etc.

~~~
InclinedPlane
pjmlp has it right, but I'll add some further clarifications.

One of the most important aspects of Microsoft's success is network effect.
People use Windows and Office because other people use Windows and Office.

But network effect also works on the development/platform side. Devs write
apps in the technologies they know and are comfortable with, and those tend to
be the technologies they've used for personal or work projects. Today, far
fewer of the top tier (even the top 50% really) of developers are using
Microsoft technologies, or are even familiar with them. The "cool kids" code
in Ruby or Python or Scala or Golang, or mobile specific languages. If they
want to get things done to pay the bills they might fall back on java or PHP.
But the idea of using C#, .NET, or coding Windows Apps? Far fewer devs under
30 are doing that than they were 10 or 20 years ago.

With fewer devs coding on your platform that means there will be fewer apps,
especially the most desired ones, and eventually that will impact the user
base as well and weaken the entire business. The era where nobody cares
whether a computer runs windows is on the horizon today, even though it may be
many years away. If you look at the big apps and systems from the last 5 years
you see that a lot of them are either web based or mobile (specifically
android/iOS as well).

Microsoft used to understand this and it was a major reason why they invested
in Visual Studio for all those years when it was unprofitable. But they've had
a period of unrivaled market dominance which has only recently been
challenged, so they lost their way for a while.

Catering to devs is how you maintain market relevancy with your platform,
which is something Microsoft desperately needs.

Additionally, improving the relationship with the dev community and attracting
more devs to your platform makes hiring easier (especially hiring talented
folks). It's almost impossible to objectively quantify the benefit of that but
it's an enormous factor. Microsoft has been bleeding talent for years and has
been starved of a lot of talent for a long time because they were perceived as
being old and boring and requiring a completely different set of proficiencies
to work there. If Microsoft wanted to they could turn that around and start
paving a road back to relevancy in the dev community again.

~~~
rjbwork
Under-30 dev here. Been programming in C# for the past 3.5 years now, and
loving every minute of it. I find VS and the associated tools be a far more
productive and enjoyable experience than the Linux/Unix toolchains I was
forced to use in undergrad, and C# to be a completely amazing language. The
two warts, for me, are MSBuild (powerful, but obtuse at times, but still
better than make) and PowerShell (again, powerful, but obtuse at times).

I also really like how .NET has first-rate libraries for the Azure ecosystem.
It really makes doing some very technically difficult/interesting things easy
on Azure.

As for others, I work with 2 developers who have made the jump from
Java/JavaScript to working in C#/.NET because it is just a plain-old better
experience.

As for relevancy and devs, C# is huge in enterprise, as I'm sure you know. I
don't think they're really fighting to maintain relevancy there, and I would
suggest that since the advent of MVC and Azure, they are growing in relevancy
in the SaaS space.

~~~
hueving
>It really makes doing some very technically difficult/interesting things easy
on Azure.

Doesn't that just mean Azure has horrible APIs that are impossible to work
with without the 'magic tooling'?

~~~
tracker1
I've been using some Azure bits with node.js without much issue... I'd say
that C# is probably my second favorite language, and that I really like JS as
my first. Which really doesn't fall in line with a lot of people, but that's
where I stand... I actually like each for their differences.

Part of my own reasons for moving away from C# and much more into the node
ecosystem has been in terms of licensing and avoiding lock in. Now that MS is
going a much more open route, I'm willing to actually consider some pieces in
that direction again.

VS can be very nice to work with, my single largest issue has been how systems
have been designed with it, far above and beyond issues with the underlying
platforms or the language. The tooling is very nice. However my experiences
with "Enterprise" projects leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

More often than not, I've seen "Enterprise" (quotes intentional) projects that
seem to add complexity for its' own sake. Writing code that is unit tested in
Java or C# are just plain painful compared to say JS/node. I find that comes
down to differences between a static platform and a dynamic one though.

I think MS is rightly pushing for greater Azure deployment of server-side
applications. The desktop is dying for most people, and mobile is not going
away. By opening the tools, and providing better integration, they allow for a
transparent deployment to Azure which is a rented platform which will receive
more consistent revenue. It's simply good business.

------
niutech
Every monopoly is bad. GitHub is becoming one. I don't think it's a good move,
as well as Google abandoning Google Code.

~~~
munificent
There's always BitBucket. The transition cost for moving from GitHub to a
competitor is quite low and given how deeply socially oriented the GitHub user
base is, if GitHub starts turning people off, the community can and will move
very quickly. Look how fast Friendster and then MySpace died.

~~~
scott_karana
Can you migrate current and past Github Issues to Bitbucket? Because if you
can't, that could be a big deal for many projects.

------
icehawk219
> HOW: This will be a simple switch – turn off CodePlex, turn on GitHub.
> You’ll be able to see our check-ins on GitHub that same day.

It's probably a safe bet that CodePlex's days are numbered. Which is kind of a
shame. It was definitely heavily lacking but I can't help but think that some
more competition in the space would be a good thing.

~~~
EarthLaunch
There's plenty of competition, from Bitbucket, which is better. "Social"
effects notwithstanding, of course.

~~~
maaarghk
What's better about Bitbucket? I've never used it, just wondering.

~~~
warp
If you're working in a team the code review workflow is a bit better, because
as a reviewer you can explicitly Approve a pull request. I've used it in a
team where the requirement was to get two approvals before a pull request can
be shipped. Having the number of approvals visible on the pull request
list/overview screen is a tiny detail, but very useful.

At my current job we're using a "ship it" label on GitHub to track this, I
really don't understand why GitHub still cannot track this in a native way.

~~~
pmelendez
It's a bit of offtopic, but I had worked in a similar setup but we were using
phabricator for code reviews and it is hands down the best tool for code
review that I have ever used.

------
Permit
This post only mentions Roslyn, but the F# project will also be moved over. :)

~~~
kodablah
I believe it has always been there:
[https://github.com/fsharp/fsharp](https://github.com/fsharp/fsharp)

~~~
Permit
That's actually just a clone of the codeplex project. As mentioned in the
README contributions first go (went?) through codeplex.

~~~
latkin
This is not quite accurate. fsharp/fsharp is the F# Open Edition repo, and has
existed since long before the current (well, obsolete as of this week)
Microsoft Visual F# repo on Codeplex.

The F# Open Edition repo targets Linux/Mac/Mono explicitly. Compared to the
Visual F# repo, it's quite close, but has a handful of tweaks to account for
mono/xplat, plus has a bunch of xplat packaging capabilities.

Before the VF# repo opened for business earlier this year, Open Edition was
maintained based on the per-release F# code drops that constituted the old
open source strategy for F#.

Anyways, Visual F# (i.e. owned by MSFT, targeting windows/VS) is now at
[https://github.com/microsoft/visualfsharp](https://github.com/microsoft/visualfsharp).
There is even a [doc]([https://github.com/Microsoft/visualfsharp/wiki/Code-
Flow-to-...](https://github.com/Microsoft/visualfsharp/wiki/Code-Flow-to-Open-
Edition)) explaining how the code flows to Open Edition from there.

------
lbradstreet
With Microsoft making moves like these for their open source projects, it
seems like network effects are alive and well, and working for GitHub. Of
course, it did require some change from above to get to the point where
Microsoft is willing to open source this stuff in the first point.

~~~
codingthebeach
[http://tom.preston-werner.com/2008/10/18/how-i-turned-
down-3...](http://tom.preston-werner.com/2008/10/18/how-i-turned-
down-300k.html)

~~~
scrapcode
Why isn't this on the front page itself?

~~~
adlpz
Because it's from October 2008.

------
benbristow
BitBucket for private stuff/stuff I don't want showcasing. GitHub for open-
source.

Works perfectly fine for me and since they're both Git based there's no extra
learning curves for either of them.

~~~
pmelendez
> BitBucket for private stuff/stuff I don't want showcasing. GitHub for open-
> source.

I use them in the same way, but I can't help but feeling that I am taking
advantage of Bitbucket and not giving anything in return, regardless of being
good guy Bitbucket.

~~~
ddbennett
If you like Bitbucket don't feel bad about using it. We like seeing real
developers benefit from our efforts -- it's a refreshing break from playing
cat and mouse with the bad actors trying to ruin it for everyone.

~~~
pmelendez
Thanks! I am a big fan of what you guys are doing... And I am sure I am not
alone :)

I am just a bit jealous about the weather down there ;)

------
tzs
Are there any major public repository hosting services that provide good
organizational tools for multiple repositories?

GitHub, as far as I have been able to determine, only supports a flat list
sorted by last update.

This is annoying when a developer has a lot of repositories. I'll come across
something useful in one of my areas of interest from a given developer, and
then want to look at their other repositories to see if they have anything
else in that area of interest. In a sane design, all of their repositories in
that area would be organized under a folder, and this would be easy.

BitBucket seems to have the same limitation.

~~~
perlgeek
Gitlab at least has groups of repositories, which provide some amount of
namespacing. No idea if it supports nesting.

~~~
sytse
GitLab B.V. CEO here, GitLab indeed supports groups. This enables the folder
structure you seek where you can find repo's that belong to the same
functional group.

------
nl
One of the GitHub founders has talked about being offered a job at Microsoft
out of college, and deciding to take the risk starting GitHub instead.

Must feel satisfying....

Edit: Ok, not straight out of college. No less satisfying though.

~~~
justnow123
Except Tom got fired from github (well, forced resignation).

~~~
hueving
The one that was sexually harassing his employees?

------
iamcreasy
Pretty cool!

Are all these happening because Satya Nadella is trying to steer MS in new
direction?

~~~
cpayne
Maybe? But I think its more just a natural evolution. Scott Hanselman has been
making noise regarding open source for years [1].

I'm not saying Scott is responsible, just that many people have been
suggesting it for a long long time.

I saw a job today asking for TFS skills. THAT is a dying product...

[1]
[http://www.hanselman.com/blog/ExampleHowToContributeAPatchTo...](http://www.hanselman.com/blog/ExampleHowToContributeAPatchToAnOpenSourceProjectLikeDasBlog.aspx)

~~~
pjmlp
You missed the part that TFS is much more than just source control and since
TFS 2012 also supports Git.

~~~
josteink
You mean like. Application Lifecycle Management? ALM? Bug-tracking, release-
management and stuff?

Which they now will be using Github for? Oh. That's _definitely_ interesting.

~~~
gokhan
HN does not give you clues to understand what's going on in the Enterperise
market. So don't judge products based on what you see here. No one talks about
SharePoint on HN, for example, but it's really something for the Enterprise.

Just like TFS, and I have seen many Java teams moving in, ditching various
expensive products from IBM, HP etc. Team sizes or focus in HN might be
different so TFS might be seen as dying, but it's not the case in the field.

~~~
josteink
Since most of my work experience is from working at big corps or
consultancies, I'm definitely aware of this.

Microsoft has a heap of products and platforms not once mentioned on HN, but
which are humongous in the organizations which decides to adapt them:
Sharepoint, BizTalk, etc.

But TFS has always been "the" corner-stone for optimal development in the
Microsoft-world, when developing according to Microsoft agile/solutions-
framework (MSF, etc).

When Microsoft's own SDK teams dismiss their own development tools and
platforms like TFS and Codeplex for competing platforms, like Git & Github, it
definitely sends out mixed signals.

Anyway you see it, Linus Thorvalds must be pretty happy now. Not only are
Microsoft providing tools and source to the Linux-world, they are now also
using his tools to develop their own platform.

How things have changed, eh?

------
edpichler
Microsoft has being doing good decisions lately. They are becoming more open,
also integrating more with industry leaders. Another good strategic decision
they made was the partnership with Dropbox
([https://blog.dropbox.com/2014/11/dropbox-microsoft-office-
pa...](https://blog.dropbox.com/2014/11/dropbox-microsoft-office-
partnership/)) not mattering if they already have a similar service
(OneDrive).

To me, these are signals of a good administration. This company is changing to
keep growing, and I believe it is working. It's not the same Microsoft we knew
a decade ago.

~~~
chrisdone
Call me cynical, but the first thing that springs to mind with these kind of
opening up is the sign of a company no longer with the bullying power to not
care about being open. Rather than these changes occurring because a hierarchy
of managers had a change of heart (look guys, they learned that open source is
good!), a market share drop from 97% to 20% makes you humbled and reconsider
your strategy, and products that don't yield returns are just sitting there
and might as well be open sourced because it fosters good will in your
company. IBM had to do it. Microsoft are doing it. Apple won't be doing it now
that they're the big boys in town. Compare their Swift language which will
remain proprietary for as long as Apple can get away with it, just as
Microsoft has always done.

~~~
jordanpg
Agreed.

This avalanche of pro-community news out of MS since Nadella took over is
about MS rebranding itself, particularly with younger people who (incorrectly
or otherwise) believe that MS technologies are "greying". They can no longer
take their market dominance for granted. I think it's probably too late and
doubt whether they can change the perception of MS as an overall closed
ecosystem.

------
josteink
I definitely hope they will blog more about the migration and source-code
conversion and how they did it, much like ESR blogged about the Emacs BZR to
Git conversion[1].

It would probably be very interesting for customers thinking about migrating
from TFS to Git themselves.

[1] [http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5634](http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5634)

------
antaviana
Perhaps Microsoft wants to divest out of the git+online tools space? Github is
the incumbent that they did not crack how to beat and it will be a bit more
crowded with Amazon who seems to be also coming this year with CodeCommit. So
far, Amazon strategy has been to suck all air from the room.

~~~
ethomson
Absolutely not. We are very committed to the git space, both on the client
side (Visual Studio) and the server side (Visual Studio Online and Team
Foundation Server). We're continuing to invest - in fact, we're hiring for git
developer positions. (Send me a message if you're interested!)

This is about open source hosting which, to be quite honest, GitHub does
better, and is where users expect our open source to be.

------
waitingkuo
That's interesting!!! So what's Microsoft's next step? Aquire Github?

------
XorNot
Makes sense to me. I've not met anyone who doesn't think Visual Studio is
solid software, and received numerous recommendations that an IDE is
definitely something worth paying for. MS looking to be developer friendly can
only be good for them.

------
farresito
What were they previously using before the switch to git? Mercurial?

~~~
Watabou
git != Github.

Github just hosts git repositories. You can use git and not host on Github.

They were using git, but hosting the repository on CodePlex.

~~~
thesimon
>We are moving our code to GitHub as well as switching to use git internally

But they were using a different tool internally.

~~~
taspeotis
Probably TFS, which Microsoft use quite a bit internally [1].

[1]
[http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudioalm/archive/2013/08/20/t...](http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudioalm/archive/2013/08/20/tfs-
internal-usage-statistics-1st-half-cy-2013.aspx)

~~~
josteink
> Probably TFS, which Microsoft use quite a bit internally

But seemingly less and less so, especially in the SDK-teams. Which is
definitely interesting.

If Microsoft's own SDK-developers don't want to use Microsoft's own source-
control and ALM-system, but rather prefers Github, what signals does that
send? I would sayed _mixed_ at best.

~~~
chii
it's an open secret that TFS sucks ass. I dont think anything is going to
change that attitude - they might as well use something better, and hence the
move.

~~~
RyJones
Not much of a secret. There was open revolt when we were forced to switch in
MSN.

------
jng
Microsoft embracing open source and open culture without having a clear path
forward ensuring business. This reminds me of Sun a lot. That didn't end up
well.

~~~
chii
sun's business model was..eerr, sparc workstations? microsoft's business model
is windows and enterprise sales, with a hint of consumer sales and
electronics. Microsoft has so much cash it could buy a small country.

~~~
lil_cain
Sun's business model was enterprise software (openDS, SunOne, java, Solaris)
which was still pretty big, and hardware, which they were very good at. They
also had a cloud, and I'm sure lots of other things.

And I'm sure when things started going wrong SUN had plenty of money too.
Money buys you time. It doesn't buy you survival.

------
aurelien
Always fun to see Microsoft moving to free software.

------
JBiserkov
Can someone please change the title to

.NET Compiler Platform ("Roslyn") is moving to GitHub

The current one makes it seem that MSDN is moving to GitHub (wouldn't _that_
be a sight? :-)

~~~
cmdrfred
Would probably be easier to search at least.

------
stevenspins
Finally, you are moving it into GitHub that wil surely give yo more users for
the Roslyn code

------
XzetaU8
Embrace.

~~~
zodiakzz
Except hey can't possibly "Extend" a SaaS product on their own.

~~~
blumkvist
I don't think you understand how this methodology works.

------
ck2
I had to double take and check if it was April 1st already.

------
davidgerard
>as well as switching to use git internally

LINUS INFILTRATES

------
CmonDev
_" We’ll be using GitHub Issues for both discussions and bugs after the
switch"_

Hilarious! Did someone call GitHub "social"?

~~~
terrajobst
Not sure I understand? I would say that GitHub is quite social. It's pretty
much the Facebook of code hosting.

~~~
CmonDev
No way to hold discussions though. How social is that? How do I ask a question
(which is not a bug or a feature request)? Go to some completely different
site?

~~~
tracker1
In general, I'd say file a bug asking for further documentation. Github
supports wikis for documenting projects, which works well enough for this. For
a lot of smaller projects/tools a good README.md is enough though.

