
System76 launching ARM Pro server with 96 cores up to 1TB ECC RAM and 32TB storage - matunixe
https://system76.com/servers/starling?utm_source=system76&utm_medium=email&utm_term=arm-server&utm_content=arm_release&utm_campaign=newsletter
======
bmurphy1976
Ordered a 1U from them. Going on a month now with no delivery date yet and no
indications there would be a problem until after we ordered. Not a big deal
for us, we can wait and ordered it because it was cheap, but consider
yourselves warned.

~~~
omginternets
I had a pretty crappy experience buying from them in 2007. At that time I
think they were just getting started, so I chalked it up to "beginner's
mistake", but it seems like these problems persist.

My data-point, as best I can recall:

\- ordered a serval laptop

\- long delays with minimal communication

\- laptop arrived and motherboard died within a few days

After sending it back for repairs and haggling over the warrantee (DHL damaged
the case, so they didn't want to pay for the motherboard initially), I got the
thing replaced and it ran smoothly for many years.

EDIT: to be clear, I was ultimately happy with the device itself -- it finally
died in 2013. It's rather the shipping/service/etc that was disappointing,
though I've seen much worse.

~~~
organsnyder
I also ordered from them in 2007, but I had a good experience. I was ordering
a server (tower form factor), which would be easier than a laptop. IIRC, they
were out of the particular CPU I had ordered, so they replaced it with a
better one (one of the first dual-core chips) for the same price. That system
ran very well, in a musty basement, for a number of years. I recently used the
case—an Intel server model—to house a gaming rig.

~~~
gshulegaard
I also wanted to put out there that I had a good experience ordering a Galago
UltraPro from them in circa 2014.

------
vhost-
I got Lemur 14" laptop a while back and absolutely hated the build quality.
The keyboard is terrible and the screen has the worst viewing angles of any
laptop I've ever owned. I got tired of it after 4 or 5 months and converted it
to a home server and it's been super reliable in that mode since 2014. AND it
also has the benefit of staying online during power outages.

~~~
TezlaKoil
Clevo is a huge Chinese OEM computer manufacturer which exclusively produces
cheap, low-quality laptop computers.

System76 selects Clevo configurations that are more-or-less compatible with
Linux, puts a brand on them and sells them at a somewhat-inflated price.

~~~
jdfellow
Not really that inflated. I built a Clevo laptop about 4 years ago, and
compared it to an identical System76 build, it was only $70 difference.

That thing was pretty poor quality though. Died fall of 15, replaced it with
an XPS 13 which is still going strong.

------
anoother
This is a Gigabyte server, probably one of the following:

[http://b2b.gigabyte.com/Rack-
Server/R150-T61-rev-110](http://b2b.gigabyte.com/Rack-Server/R150-T61-rev-110)

[http://b2b.gigabyte.com/Rack-
Server/R150-T62-rev-100](http://b2b.gigabyte.com/Rack-Server/R150-T62-rev-100)

What value-add does System76 provide?

~~~
wmf
The ability to actually buy it? I'm not joking; most ODM equipment is a hassle
to buy, especially in small quantities for POCs.

~~~
flat6turbo
also the ability to RMA faulty gear, get support, yell at someone to send you
stuff faster, although ... judging from the comments in this thread, maybe
not.

fwiw, nobody in this space really gives a shit about you unless you're
spending $50k or more, and realistically $250k or more on an ongoing basis.
you're better off going to fry's or buying from a used gear vendor if you want
small quantities.

~~~
vidarh
There are plenty of smaller companies you can buy from to act as
intermediaries. My experience (in the UK) is that you pay a small premium for
it over the larger providers, but you certainly can get providers where you
deal with someone who'll remember your name and actually answer the
phone/e-mails even if you only order a single server here and there.

~~~
flat6turbo
we buy from a tiny company located literally down the road from the building
where the servers get shipped in from the port.

it cost us a considerable amount of money and time finding this vendor, so i
consider it a trade secret (and the oem too). fwiw, their website and
marketing are atrocious but they deliver product on time every time. i've been
in business long enough to know how these things work.

------
slizard
Sadly these gen-1 ThunderX cores are pretty poor in performance and not
particularly power-efficient either. Cache performance is especially sucky.
[https://www.servethehome.com/exclusive-first-cavium-
thunderx...](https://www.servethehome.com/exclusive-first-cavium-thunderx-
dual-48-core-96-core-total-arm-benchmarks/)
[http://www.anandtech.com/show/10353/investigating-cavium-
thu...](http://www.anandtech.com/show/10353/investigating-cavium-
thunderx-48-arm-cores)

I hope that this is just a rebranded system showing the redyness of System76
and raising awareness about such products so that they're better positioned
for the ThunderX2 release later this year.

~~~
runeks
ARM was never particularly power-efficient. ARM was designed for low power,
not power efficiency. The only case where an ARM core is more power efficient
than a Xeon core is when they're both idle -- primarily because the ARM core
was designed to be idle most of the time, while the Xeon core was designed to
be in use most of the time.

~~~
gpderetta
ARM the architecture has very little to do with power efficiency as it is out
of scope (except that the old the ARM 32bit instruction set was amenable for a
very low power implementation).

ARM the company does design both low power and power efficient implementations
of the ARM architecture. In fact for some specific power targets (mobile for
example) they are more efficient than the corresponding Intel CPUs.

This is still irrelevant as Cavium design its own ARM cores from scratch (i.e.
it doesn't use ARM reference designs) specifically for server use; now, they
are not very good, but that's another story.

~~~
runeks
> In fact for some specific power targets (mobile for example) they are more
> efficient than the corresponding Intel CPUs.

I agree, but only if the measurement of power efficiency includes idle periods
-- eg. "browse for 5 minutes, lock phone and wait 30 minutes, repeat".

I don't believe you can provide a source showing an ARM CPU executing a
particular workload (i.e. not including idle periods) at greater power
efficiency than a same-generation Intel x86 CPU.

------
codegeek
aah system 76. I hope they have improved recently with their customer service
but I had a horrible experience with them back in 2013 when they had to
replace a keyboard (the CEO actually sent an email explaining how shitty their
keyboard was) and when I asked for a refund, they simply refused. NO refunds.
I had to literally open the laptop myself and install the new keyboard.

I am not one of those types who asks for refunds on anything. This was
genuinely a defective laptop with a faulty keyboard (turns out that is how
they were shipping it back then to everyone) and their answer was to replace
with the new one (after the CEO sent a bulk email to every customer) . Why
should I have to go through that hassle ? This was the first time I almost
thought of doing a chargeback but didn't.

~~~
chx
So we have a data point from _four years_ ago and you are still harboring a
resentment so hard that you feel you need to air your grievances for a
completely different product. I get it. Hell hath no fury like a customer
scorned.

~~~
jdreaver
I have two coworkers that just had to get replacement keyboards for their
System76 laptops. They have to replace them themselves as well.

~~~
rlonstein
> They have to replace them themselves as well.

It happens. I've done field replacements on Dell laptops for DOA components
for non-technical friends, most recently a dvd drive and previously a
keyboard. Dell shipped the components and I swapped them out for exchange.
Dell quoted moderately long (over a week) round trip if it went to a service
center but my friends wouldn't have attempted it themselves.

------
thepumpkin1979
Reminds me Type 2A at Packet.net, a similar 96 core processor, 128GB RAM and
340 SSD for $0.50 USD /hr [https://www.packet.net/bare-
metal/servers/type-2a/](https://www.packet.net/bare-metal/servers/type-2a/)

~~~
moojah
This looks very palatable. If only they had more disk space options...

~~~
misframer
They have block storage.

[https://www.packet.net/bare-
metal/services/storage/](https://www.packet.net/bare-metal/services/storage/)

------
nkkollaw
I see that they're releasing a new laptop:
[https://system76.com/laptops/galago](https://system76.com/laptops/galago)

This is probably the first laptop from them that I could consider buying,
judging solely on that small picture of it.

Still super-thick, and I don't know if I would feel comfortable buying that
over the XPS, but at least it's got HiDPI, which for the price they sell their
laptops for I feel should be included.

~~~
freehunter
>Still super-thick

You make your laptops super thin and people complain about ports and only 16GB
of RAM and no repairability. You make your laptops repairable with three
different kinds of USB ports plus HDMI and 32GB of RAM, and people complain
it's super-thick.

~~~
icebraining
It's like different people have different opinion on stuff!

~~~
freehunter
But they all share one thing in common: complaining on the Internet about
products that aren't marketed toward them.

~~~
icebraining
From the laptop's marketing page: "Thin".

Absent from the page: "repairable", "three USB ports", "32GB of RAM".

------
tiffanyh
If anyone wants to use these for web servers, you might want to think again.

Facebook did the same evaluation recently and decided that the Intel Xeon-D
chip was best [1].

YMMV

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11254755](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11254755)

~~~
sjtgraham
Yea, decided it was best for them. I would like to see benchmarks of a BEAM
app running on the Xeon-D and an ARM server with a huge number of physical CPU
cores.

~~~
tiffanyh
BEAM would be an extremely interesting benchmark given the parallel nature of
Erlang.

Hopefully the WhatsApp team is investigating high-core count ARM architecture
and will report on it.

------
AndrewUnmuted
If you're looking for a server dedicated to supporting Linux, I suggest
checking out Penguin Computing. They have a much better reputation and have
much better servers than this System76 attempt.

------
analognoise
I wanted to like System76. I had a dead pixel on a new machine that was to be
my new workhorse AAAAAND that's how I learned what a dead pixel policy is!

Turns out, theirs was rubbish. The whole laptop wasn't elegant or well
constructed, but it was durable. I had to send it in for repairs once, that
went well. Still, I'd never buy anything of theirs again. Ever.

~~~
vhost-
I had 3 on a brand new macbook years ago and apple wouldn't take it back
because it wasn't enough. they were very noticeable.

~~~
brianwawok
Don't you have a 14 day return window for any reason?

~~~
kondro
Yes. And I've used it a couple of times.

------
nimos
[http://www.cavium.com/pdfFiles/ThunderX_CP_PB_Rev1.pdf?x=2](http://www.cavium.com/pdfFiles/ThunderX_CP_PB_Rev1.pdf?x=2)

Spec sheet for the CPU is there. I just don't see how IO doesn't end up
murdering performance. 16MB shared L2 is across all the cores?

~~~
wmf
The cores are so wimpy that 16MB is an appropriate amount. For comparison a
Xeon D only has 12MB.

~~~
nimos
Xeon D's also have a 256KB L2 though then 1.5MB per core shared L3. Whereas
this is 333KB per core L2 which is presumably shared.

Not really informed enough to say it would be the performance bottleneck but
it seems like it would be to me in most server environments.

------
alexbardas
If anyone is interested in buying a System 76 product and have it delivered
outside of US, please take into account that the price doesn't include VAT.
This has to be payed separately, which usually means that each device is ~20%
more expensive (when delivered outside of US).

I ended up having to pay 400$ more for delivery + VAT for a laptop (didn't
know about the VAT tax at that time). Very good performance, but rather
mediocre quality (1 usb port is completely unusable).

------
astrodust
From $6399USD. That's quite a price-tag, but a lot less than a high-spec Xeon
server where the CPUs alone are $3000 each.

It'll be interesting to see benchmarks of how this performs.

~~~
wmf
[http://www.anandtech.com/show/10353/investigating-cavium-
thu...](http://www.anandtech.com/show/10353/investigating-cavium-
thunderx-48-arm-cores)

[https://www.servethehome.com/exclusive-first-cavium-
thunderx...](https://www.servethehome.com/exclusive-first-cavium-thunderx-
dual-48-core-96-core-total-arm-benchmarks/)

[https://www.servethehome.com/cavium-thunderx-micro-
benchmark...](https://www.servethehome.com/cavium-thunderx-micro-benchmarks-
enterprise-arm-developers-need-machines/)

~~~
chx
The big deal is on the [http://www.anandtech.com/show/10353/investigating-
cavium-thu...](http://www.anandtech.com/show/10353/investigating-cavium-
thunderx-48-arm-cores/19) page: the MySQL transactions per watt is absymal
compared to the Xeon D. Really, badly absymal. So... this is not a useful
server. When someone says ARM I am thinking "low power" but this is a 120W CPU
which is beaten by the 65W Xeon D-1581. Pass. Let me emphasize: very often I
do not care about absolute performance numbers because your power budget is
almost always limited in a data centre, what I care about is performance per
watt. Which here the Xeon D wins. Like, big time. Tangentially: this is where
Ryzen battle will be as well. I was crunching the numbers from
[http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph11170/85875.png](http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph11170/85875.png)
and the Ryzen 1700 is only beaten in performance per watt by the i7 7700T and
only by 5% while in performance for dollar the 1700 has a comfy advantage over
every Intel CPU, 62% over the i7 7700T which is a lot to pay for a 5%
advantage. This shows the Ryzen is practically on par with the i7 series: the
7700T is 4 cores in 35W, the 1700 is 8 cores in 65W and they are head-to-head.
I want to see the 8 and 16 core Xeon D chips battle Naples but I am afraid AMD
is simply not yet in the low wattage game. But I really would love to see some
competition there!

~~~
magila
The TDP numbers from the specs does not necessarily reflect the power draw you
will see in practice. Test results here
[https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Processors/AMD-
Ryzen-7-1800X-R...](https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Processors/AMD-
Ryzen-7-1800X-Review-Now-and-Zen/Power-Consumption-and-Conclusions) show the
Ryzen 1800X (95W TDP) actually drawing 20% more power than a 7700K (91W TDP)
and about the same as a 6950X (140W TDP).

------
storrgie
No offense to System76, I'm very happy they are entering this space early. I
just will wait for one of the biggies (e.g. dell, lenovo) so that I know the
hardware could be supported.

I'm really wanting to shake Intel if possible, and I'm struggling to find
chassis that support the amount of addons I require... but with these ARM
servers and the network I/O they have onboard, I'm quite excited.

~~~
5ilv3r
Looking forward to riscv here, since it will be possible for tons of
competition in the wackass chip features department. We should get some great
purpose built servers out of that in 10 years or so.

------
Splendor
Slightly off-topic; the "FakeHtop" element on the page is mesmerizing.

~~~
git-pull
For those who don't know, that thing with meters on it is htop(1).
[http://hisham.hm/htop/](http://hisham.hm/htop/)

------
sgarg26
In 2013, I ordered a laptop from them as well. First, my screen died within a
few months. I encountered hidden fees and rudeness trying to work through
their tech support and warranty policy. Then, the motherboard died within the
year.

------
salimmadjd
So many product lines for such a small company. Laptops, Desktops, Servers.
Not even Apple is able to effectively manage this many different products.

I don't know much about them, but from my first impression it looks like a
company with lack of focus. I'm not sure how they will be able to create
killer product in any of the segments they're trying to compete in.

Based on my above observation (admittedly superficial), I would never buy
anything from them. I would not trust the quality nor their ability to be able
to support it.

~~~
jldugger
Note that they're primarily rebadging existing products, while apple is far
more involved in the design and manufacture of new products.

Also note that their niche is shipping Linux preinstalled devices. If they did
have a killer mass consumer product, they'd have a difficult time coping with
consumers expecting and demanding windows on PCs.

~~~
shmerl
Most consumers don't demand Windows, they don't even care what OS is
installed.

------
rrggrr
Purchased two linux desktops from them. Neither lasted more than a year.
Purchased two small servers, both doing fine. Overall I can't really recommend
them.

------
ckdarby
Ordered a laptop from them back in the day. Worst purchase in my entire life.

~~~
htsh
Can you expand upon this please? I'm considering doing the same now but this
gives me pause.

~~~
ckdarby
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12854293](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12854293)

It was a terrible experience across the board, never again. Highly recommend
the Zenbook or the Dell XPS for linux distros :).

I personally have the Zenbook but I have three friends with the XPS now. There
was some complaining on the XPS about the backlight or something?

~~~
anaphor
I think it has some kind of firmware that manages the backlight, so if you
switch between really bright and dark windows a lot (like a browser and
terminal) then it changes brightness a lot which is annoying, and there's no
way to turn it off. Personally the only thing I've had issues with (on Linux)
is the soundcard producing low-level noise because of the CPU going into
powersaving mode. It's fixable but I can't remember exactly what I had to do
to get it to stop.

On the bright side, it does help a lot for the battery life (I get around 8
hours usually).

I also have an older system76 laptop and I would definitely recommend the XPS
(13 or 15) over it if you want something lightweight with good battery life.

------
robert_foss
The CPU seems to be 2x Cavium ThunderX_CP for a total of 96 cores.

------
Symbiote
What would be a typical use case for something like this?

------
rlonstein
anecdata: bought a Bonobo from them a couple of years ago at $EMPLOYER for a
[semi]portable workstation. Arrived in just few days and it was as expected.

The developer who used it liked it though it didn't move much once it hit his
desk. I didn't like the keyboard and thought the finish wasn't polished but I
wasn't using it.

------
legulere
How does that thing boot and does it work with a mainline kernel I do not have
to compile myself?

------
Animats
All 96 cores share the same memory? Does the thing choke on memory bandwidth,
or what?

------
patrickg_zill
Each 48 core cpu lists for $800. So why does the base system start at $6399?

------
youdontknowtho
thats impressive. 96 cores starting at 6k? did anybody else configure a
silverback workstation with all the options to see what it would cost?
($33k...but wow.)

------
tlrobinson
What sort of workloads would this be suitable for?

~~~
5ilv3r
Arm build farm comes to mind

------
chatman
What is the CPU speed for these 96 cores?

------
snissn
Why arm?

~~~
nickpsecurity
The ecosystem. That's its main selling point.

~~~
snissn
Thanks - for servers? Would this be used to host a database?

~~~
nickpsecurity
Christie covers the argument for proprietary ISA's in this discussion:

[https://research.cs.wisc.edu/multifacet/papers/ieeemicro16_c...](https://research.cs.wisc.edu/multifacet/papers/ieeemicro16_card_isa.pdf)

It not the ISA that makes it desirable. It's all the tooling, apps, branding,
and talent around it. You have to rebuild that stuff for new ISA's. You also
have to get the market to trust a new one after so many perished. _That_ is
why companies pay ARM $1-15 million for licenses to use that ISA and brand
name.

~~~
wmf
Since we're talking about servers, it doesn't seem like any of those are
advantages for ARM _compared to x86_.

~~~
nickpsecurity
It's apples to oranges. ARM is designed to be customizable with all kinds of
pluggible accelerators and stuff. x86 is what Intel decides it is. I heard
they followed AMD in building a semi-custom business but with who knows what
limitations or costs. So, you get a lightweight, easy-to-customize SOC with
huge ecosystem for both software and hardware accelerators.

------
_pmf_
I need this.

