
No, I won't be your technical co-founder - gryner
http://martingryner.com/no-i-wont-be-your-technical-co-founder/
======
nikcub
A sweeping generalization of business and product people. I'll offer a counter
example.

This story starts over a decade ago. There was a high level executive at a
large enterprise software firm. The guy was one of the best enterprise sales
people in North America and highly valued by the organization. In reading
about the trend of software moving online he realized that the industry he was
in, selling large scale enterprise solutions to Fortune 500 companies, was
eventually going to be replaced by software delivered online.

He attempted to get his organization to shift into investing in online web
services, but they saw it as a threat to their traditional business model. He
quit work and then went to find technical people who could implement the
visitation. He ended up recruiting a group of 8-10 developers, all sold on the
vision. He wrote up a quick vision for the company and raised a few million
dollars on the back of it.

He leased out cheap and nasty office space down in the suburbs outside of San
Jose. He spent two weeks writing a software specification for a new enterprise
product that would be entirely web based. The spec was a couple of dozen pages
long. He also wrote a marketing brief on how the product would be sold. He
handed the spec over to the developers and then went on vacation in Hawaii for
a few months while they built the initial version of the product.

A few months later and with a first version he went out to the media and
announced 'the end of software' and introduced a new web services model for
the enterprise: salesforce.com. Over 10 years later and the company has a $20
billion market cap, defined an entirely new industry and threatened the
business of his old employer (Oracle) to the extend that they setup a clone
competitor.

If the original developers who joined Marc Benioff had read this blog post,
they would have questioned 'his contribution', especially the part where he
took off on holiday. Product and business people are entirely undervalued.
Benioff could have found the eight developers he required from any thousands
of other developers to implement what he had in mind, but there was only one
person who had the vision, perseverance and balls to do what he did.

~~~
jonnathanson
This is well said (and, perhaps, a similar story could be told about Steve
Jobs). But I think there's at least one point in the article that holds true:
it's very tough to evaluate the credibility of a "business" co-founder until
he's achieved success. A developer's talent can be measured and normalized; a
business person -- before he becomes successful -- is a much riskier and more
unknowable commodity.

One way to look at things is to say that great businesspeople are undervalued.
Another viewpoint is that the valuation of businesspeople carries with it a
much higher risk multiplier. Or that the valuation has far fewer knowable
variables.

The article makes a variety of very unfair, broad, and naive generalizations
about the role of a great business, marketing, or product person. It seems to
conflate all business people into one bucket -- lumping the fly-by-night
hucksters and phonies in with the true visionaries. And its point about how a
business founder is 'only as good as his contact list' is a bit ridiculous.
But unfortunately, that contact list is often the business person's best
calling card. It's one of very few, knowable variables that he brings to the
table. (A track record on paper is great, but can be unreliable, because
anyone can spin a resume. Conversely, a list of impressive people who can
vouch for someone, or even go to bat for him, is much more actionable).

~~~
carguy1983
> _great businesspeople are undervalued_

Nitpick: by definition, great businesspeople have lots of money (value).

You should say that business people with an unknown track record are
_possibly_ undervalued.

Which is really not saying anything at all, other than it's hard to tell the
future.

~~~
jonnathanson
Actually, my point was more about businesspeople in general vis-a-vis the
startup scene. Technical people may indeed undervalue the importance of
business people (and, in many cases, vice versa).

The nitpick offers an interesting perspective, and it's well received, but I
think it's orthogonal to my point.

In general, I think there's a common misunderstanding between these two camps,
especially w/r/t their intersection in the software industry. Just as it's not
fair for a businessperson to assume that all technical co-founders are
interchangeable ("He's just a skill set"), it's not fair for technical co-
founders to assume all business co-founders are worthless ("He's just a
rolodex").

------
marcusf
This is going on like a broken record; No flack to the author, he got all
rights to have his grievances. On the other hand, it feels like I've read this
post before.

One thing that always comes up in these posts is: > If we fail fast you have
lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work.

I don't get that...? Presumably, the guy you jump in a boat with will also
have invested 6 months of his life in to this, and presuposing he, even the
abstract random business guy he in this post, can't contribute _anything_ of
value seems inflammatory at best?

Finally, I think that we should recognize that this is a fantastic problem to
have. If you're approached weekly about new business ventures, you've probably
made a good name and good game for yourself. Which is fantastic.

~~~
tferris
> ... have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work

Well observed. The problem with good developers these days is that they have
too high opportunity costs: a good developer earns as contracter easily
between 130K und 180K USD, even more. Compared to a non-techie this is
remarkable because there are many high priced offers in this range and
developers don't need to present such a polished CV like their business
counterparts (they can have white spots, breaks, stayed just few months
somewhere, etc. and still get _easily_ high paid dev jobs because of the
shortage). And business people usually cannot do contracting work that easily.

This paired with a generally more risk-averse attitude leads to statements
like "If we fail fast you have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months
of intense work".

I remember those days when I had a high salary plus a full packages of perks—I
was lethargic and haven't followed great biz opportunities because I thought
they are too small and will never reach my current income. And comparing
opportunities as a founder with your current income as contractor or employee
is fundamentally wrong. Even the best brands like Google, free fruit and 180K+
salaries will never give you the same feeling and confidence as when you build
own thing. But the most will never make this experience, they even won't
realize that they are wearing golden handcuffs all the time.

~~~
dsolomon
You're "facts" are far from that.

The developers we have onsite with the customer (Department of Defense with
Top Secret clearances) are paid roughly $40-50K/yr USD.

If there were companies that actually paid the salaries you're quoting there
would be a line of people at the front door every morning wanting to get
hired.

~~~
sparsevector
His numbers may be high but $40-50k/yr is pretty low. My impression is that
software developer positions at top companies (Google, Microsoft, Facebook,
etc) pay about 2x that.

~~~
devs1010
2x $40-50k? You are definitely off base, that would be maybe a starting salary
for an entry level developer, if that.

------
felixchan
Here's the problem with silicon valley:

Engineers think they rule the world. But in reality, product people rule the
world.

It doesn't matter if your other "non-technical" co-founder sits on his ass all
day and you work your ass off...because you have to understand that one angle
of perception--one simple spark of an idea--can create just as much value as
your sweat work.

"Point of View is worth 80 IQ points"

When you wrote "Your are easily replaceable"...you are 100% wrong.

YOU are easily replaceable. You're just the coder who builds the thing. Once
MVP is launched and the company raises funding, you could easily be replaced
because I guarantee you there are thousands of engineers just as good as you.

The product guy, on the other hand, is the DNA of the company. He forms the
vision, culture, management. You can't replace that.

~~~
conker
Obvious butthurt is obvious

I bet you went to a meetup with your rackety ass idea for an instagram clone
and nobody there even acknowledged you existed

Tell me if you are not easily replaceable then how come every time I ask for
hackers I only get about 5 emails but if I ask for business founders or idea
guys my inbox goes DDoS?

The "company DNA" is just another bullshit buzzword, as are "vision" and
"culture" the fact you used this as your only point in your entire rant gives
me a clear idea of what a douche you are.

And "management"? management ruined some of the best companies in America, why
don't you try and defend CDOs too?

Good luck getting any hackers to join your imaginary startup.

~~~
itsboring
Come now, I'm sure he has an awesome idea, but we have to sign an NDA to hear
it.

------
Swizec
>Let’s face it – good hackers are scarce resource. That’s why you are talking
to me. However conferences, meetups and other places where startup industry
players gathers to escape the daylight are filled with available marketers and
business monkeys.

I used to think like this.

Then I interned at Doublerecall.

Seeing those business guys do their jobs ... I was figuratively blown away. I
mean _wow_. They worked harder on business development than I have ever seen a
hacker work on even their most favorite projects.

Fact of the matter is, business work involves a lot of ... stuff. Everything
is hands on, very little of it can be automated, you're dealing with people
all the time and, to be perfectly honest, there probably isn't a hacker out
there who could _really_ work as a business guy. We're just too lazy.

Nothing about taking tens upon tens of meetings a week says "replaceable" to
me.

~~~
mgkimsal
"However conferences, meetups and other places where startup industry players
gathers to escape the daylight are filled with available marketers and
business monkeys"

The fact that we have a "startup industry" is slightly unnerving, and
"players" in that industry even moreso. I suspect that both 'developers' and
'business monkeys' who try to get involved in this 'industry' and hang with
the 'players' too much aren't the sort of people you want as part of your
team.

So, yeah, in one sense you're right to criticize the capabilities of 'business
guys' attending 'startup conferences', but the same criticism might be
levelled at non-business people at those same conferences. The truly capable -
those executing in their chosen fields - probably won't be at too many of
those events on a regular basis.

~~~
brazzy
Are you trying to single-handedly exhaust the national scare quotes reserves?

------
jason_tko
"Your are easily replaceable

Only thing you have is your network. As a “business guy” in startup I expect
you to have Barack Obama as 2. level LinkedIn connection and Zuckys number on
speed dial. Well, anyway much wider network than I have. If you don’t – I
probably don’t need you."

This comment belies a stunning lack of understanding and respect for what
actually goes into the business side of typical tech startups - the sales,
marketing, user acquisition, hiring/team building, negotiations and every
other thing that business co-founders actually do.

A very irritating blight on an article that otherwise had some good points.

~~~
zorbo
So far, all the people who've approached me for startups have been "idea
people". Those are the ones who think they'll get rich quick with a
iPhone/iPad application/whatever, they just need someone to build it for them.
Every single one of them, when asked what _their_ contribution was going to
be, gave me a blank stare. And naturally, they want you to do it for free
("You'll get a share of the profits!") while they're off chasing their next
idea.

The few truly interesting, reliable startup idea's I've seen are from _real_
businessmen. Men with the network, contacts, funding, good ideas and
commitment. Those kind of businessmen, the kind you are talking about if I
understand correctly, are indispensable in a startup. Unfortunately, they seem
to be somewhat more rare than the "idea people".

~~~
jason_tko
Right. And I'm saying that there's no better way to chase away the "real
businessmen, men with the network, contacts, funding, good ideas and
commitment", than by saying, "you are easily replaceable", and if I don't
judge your network of people to be valuable then "I probably don’t need you".

For anyone with the experience of working 20 hour days on the business side of
a tech startup, this kind of statement is somewhat infuriating.

~~~
mgkimsal
It's infuriating on both sides, and I see where you're coming from with your
comments here. I _presume_ the OP wouldn't ever say "you're replaceable" to
someone who actually has (and demonstrates) a network of any sort - it's the
people who have no network whatsoever, but are seemingly unaware that that's
important, and instead want to focus on 'an app!', that are the real red
flags.

Likewise, yes, many developers are also replaceable, though few like to think
they are.

~~~
adrianhoward
_I presume the OP wouldn't ever say "you're replaceable" to someone who
actually has (and demonstrates) a network of any sort_

I think that the problem is the idea that "a network" is the only value that a
business guy provides to a company...

~~~
mgkimsal
True, if that's the _only_ value someone presumes the other party is bringing,
that's a problem. OTOH, I think people _undervalue_ the value of a tech/dev's
network - including developers themselves.

------
padobson
The biggest problem I see in these comments and in this post is that the
assumption that the skills described exist in a vacuum.

Product guys can only ever be product guys. Engineers can only be engineers.
Business men can only be business men.

If you work at a startup, you better be prepared to be all three and more. If
you aren't smart enough to be all three, then you can't be my cofounder.

------
kator
The TVM (Time Value of Money) aspect here is the one most often issues under
valued by "business types".

That said it goes both ways, I've been a serial entrepreneur and a big
corporate type. And it's clear that on the business side people work hard too
if they are going to be successful and they too have a TVM problem.

The biggest failure I see tech people make is not properly communicating the
real level of effort a project takes. In a room full of techs if we talk about
a problem we all have a reasonable understanding of how hard it is. We might
be off a bit in our estimates but in general we understand the difference in
effort of various proposals.

When in a room of business people with no domain expertise we assume they
understand what it's like to spend 100's if not 1,000's of hours working on a
technical project. They don't understand it any more then most techs
understand how hard it is to setup a company, get the business registered,
shareholder agreements written, contracts developed, taxes handled etc.

That issue however is a failure on both parties part, techs have to learn to
own their half of the "assumption" problem. They need to clearly articulate
how much work something is going to take and convert that effort into real
dollars and timelines.

True story a very famous musician friend of mine and I were talking one day
and I asked him "How long did it take you to write that song XXX" (very famous
song) and he said "Hmm a couple days here and there then in the studio.." we
both agreed it must have been maybe a 60 hour commitment. Then he asked me
about a project I had just finished with a major car manufacturer and I said
"Oh that was 6 man years of effort". He asked me "What is a man year?" and of
course I tried to explain in lay terms what it's like to have someone at a
keyboard for 2,000 hours and do that with six people. He was blown away at the
effort he literally would bring it up in future conversations for years when
we would chat on various topics.

In tech we take for granted that we work on labor scales that are massive and
our failure to explain that to other people only makes the "startup conundrum"
worse.

------
Aloisius
Dear OP,

I know you wrote this article thinking, man, it is time to get some HN karma
action. They will eat this stuff up! And indeed, there are a lot of people who
upvoted you. Congratulations!

And yet, this has to be one of the more egotistical, narcissistic, self-
serving rants I've seen on HN. There are a lot of lately. They generally
starts with the line, "Why I..." At least you didn't post one of those. Small
favors I suppose.

I'm sorry you're so in demand that people won't stop hounding you to join them
and that it is just takes too much time for you to politely tell them no! How
awful that must be for you.

Engineers are not the center of the universe. The good ones are difficult to
find, but good people of all disciplines are hard to find. I would chew my own
arm off for a top tier sales guy who could build sales plans and execute them
deftly. An bizdev guy who can maintain a large network and work them
effectively and isn't a schmuck is worth their weight in gold. A product guy
who actually talks to, understands and truly empathizes with customers? Far
more rare than you are.

At some point in your career, I hope soon, you will come to realize that non-
engineers have value too.

~~~
kamaal
I think his point is non-engineers can only add second level of value. Meaning
you still can't make things. No matter what your are selling, you are still
selling stuff 'made' by others.

~~~
heretohelp
I'd agree...except Oracle exists. :|

------
jhuckestein
The tone is very harsh, but I agree with author's sentiment. Certainly there
are exceptions, but in most cases I've seen the way "business" people approach
technical co-founders is

Yesterday I had someone who claims to be a tech entrepreneur tell me that they
"don't care about that sh*t" and that "this is why you're an engineer and I'm
not" while I was using the webkit inspector in chrome. You can see this
attitude a lot and it has lack of dedication/passion an entitlement written
all over. I'm sorry, but I know tons of non-techies that are able to
understand, pick up and use this feature within minutes.

Adults seem to have an unnatural aversion to learning. Kids are okay with not
being able to walk, walk, do math, read, write etc and will spend years
developing important skills. It baffles me why so many twenty-somethings
already feel pigeonholed into the non-techie role and don't want to learn
anything new, even if it allegedly is their greatest passion. If you spend
only six months on it you'll be able to implement most webapps or mobile apps
mvp. Sure, it'll suck, but you'll have an easier time finding a co-founder and
the collaboration will be better.

I have never owned a car. If I wanted to make a car company, my first step
would be to learn everything about cars. I certainly wouldn't fo from garage
to garage trying to convince random mechanics to quit their jobs to be my co-
founder with 30% equity and no salary just because I have a car-related idea.
The same goes for hollywood. I wouldn't show up to a film-related event and
tell everyone my great movie idea (after all, I HAVE seen many movies) and ask
for one director, one screenwriter, some actors, a bunch of other dudes and a
ton of money.

Disclaimer: I majored in Math AND went to business school. I also have a CS
degree that I got mostly on the side, because I was interested in the high
leverage of software businesses.

------
JVIDEL
Once I was talking to some ex-web1.0 "entrepreneurs" (if you could call them
that) who wanted to build one of those no-funding accelerators and, get this:
they couldn't make the website and wanted me to do it for them.

For FREE...

And these were supposed to be guys with experience FFS, one even had "computer
science" on his resume, turns out he put that because his highschool had an
above-average computer program.

I had physics in highschool, does that makes me a physicist? of course not.

There are biz-dev founders who really know their shit, can't even code a
"hello world" but know a lot about how to get around problems, so they are a
valuable asset. I talked to one during a meetup: he could answer any question
you could possibly have about financing and banking.

If I were building a payments service I would give that guy a call RFN and ask
him to join.

But lets face it: this gold rush has attracted a lot of me-too wantrepreneurs
who can't even jailbreak an iPhone or make a Wordpress install, yet have no
respect for IT and believe hackers are just the "kids" you convince to work
for free and then give a fraction of a fraction of the pie...

------
felixjmorgan
Christ, this was difficult to read. Completely delusional rant from someone
who clearly has no concept of what goes into turning a start-up from a
basement project into a commercial success. I'm not sure why you think an
engineer has a lot more to lose than the business guy, the logic there is
incredibly flawed.

It also seems to have a huge air of superiority, which seems somewhat
unsubstantiated when looking at your resume.

------
n9com
You talk like you already have a successful startup of your own. Do you?

Do you know how many great products backed by an amazing development team fail
because they lack the skills in sales/marketing/design and/or strategy?

If programming was the only thing that mattered, then why aren't all competent
programmers millionaires?

~~~
kaolinite
He didn't say that programming was the only thing that mattered. Of course
it's not. However, there are tonnes of business people and not enough talented
programmers.

I think this sums up a lot of business types and why technical people are
somewhat hostile towards them: [http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-
img/comics/websites_stop/...](http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-
img/comics/websites_stop/6.png)

~~~
adrianhoward
_However, there are tonnes of business people and not enough talented
programmers._

What I see is:

* Tons of business people, not enough talented business people

* Tons of developers, not enough talented developers

... the thing is that it's hard for talented developers to spot talented
business folk among the throng. It's also hard for talented business folk to
spot talented developers.

I understand rants like this. I meet a lot of folk who don't have much of a
clue about how much effort is involved on the development side.

The thing is - if you go talk to the business folk - they have _just_ as many
horror stories of developers letting them down, not putting the work in,
producing shoddy work, etc. Developers that come to them with what they think
is a _wonderful_ product - with no idea about their market or channels. The
folk who think "sales" are just idiots who cold call people. Etc.

Just a couple of months ago I was helping with a group who had spent £50k with
what, to them, looked like a reputable development agency - and they
essentially just threw that money away.

~~~
kaolinite
Yeah, true. I spend too much time on Hacker News and not enough time on
thedailywtf.com I guess :-) It's easy to think everyone is skilled or, at the
very least, interested - and forget that a lot are just monkeys slinging code.

------
bryanadams
Speaking as a former startup founder, I can tell you that good business people
are just as scarce as good hackers. It's just harder to evaluate business
people (at least, it is for me).

Also: it's important that all co-founders can present themselves as humble and
self-aware. Using terms like "business monkeys" and saying "you played around
with excel spreadsheets" made me wince.

------
huhtenberg
> _Let’s face it – good hackers are scarce resource. That’s why you are
> talking to me._

Oh, common. Get of your high horse already. Good business people are even
scarcer and they are _not_ talking to you. And in an off-chance that one of
them approaches you, you might not realize it, because your horse gets in the
way.

------
zbruhnke
As someone who recently made this mistake (and in a big way) I whole-heartedly
agree with just about everything you have said here. I had already sold a
company, I had proven myself both as a hacker and as someone with at least
enough business acumen to close a deal without too many lawyer fees and come
out with a good amount of money in the bank.

Now that I have made this mistake I will probably never go into business again
without knowing the person like the back of my hand. And they will almost
certainly have to be at least as technical as me or be a domain expert of some
sort.

I'm sure some see the author as biased or scorned but for the most part he is
right. "idea people" are a dime a dozen, but your idea with no execution = 0

------
kondro
Ideas are everywhere and most aren't unique. The average "business" guy's
ideas on implementation are usually quite crappy.

If someone wants me to be their "technical" co-founder, I will want market-
rate salary compensation and equity equal to the other founders and they
better be well connected to sales & marketing and additional funding
opportunities. They need me, not me them.

------
asto
Hackers can be great at running a business with a bit of effort. Ex: Google
founders.

Now show me _one_ "product guy" who's coded and launched a million-dollar
site/app.

Both sides view the other as replaceable, only one is right.

~~~
georgespencer
Yes, if only Kevin Systrom existed.

Oh, no, wait, your argument is flat out wrong.

~~~
asto
I didn't know of his background, so I googled. He learnt to code while he was
working a job and his first startup came later? Anyway, he doesn't seem to
have done much of interest before his first startup.

The question rephrased: Show me a guy who has gone from being a success in
management/finance to having a startup idea and then writing code for it (I
think this is a fair equivalent of coder with no business experience founding
a company and then continuing to run it when it becomes very profitable)

~~~
georgespencer
He worked in marketing and had ideas, so he learned to code to build them.
Then the idea for Instagram came along, he built it, marketed it and sold it.

"Management/finance" doesn't mean anything, other than excluding Systrom as a
specific example which disproves your theory.

You're asking to see someone who was successful in a non-technical role who
had an idea for a startup and learnt to code to build it. Let me surprise you:
very few people learn to code just to learn to code. Most people learn to code
to scratch an itch. How many news stories have we seen in the last few years
about people who learned to code simple addictive games for iPhone?

In that sense, I'd argue that almost everyone learns to code because they have
an idea they want to see happen. A lot of them go on to become full time
software engineers. A lot of them don't.

------
EternalFury
If I may add a few other considerations...

1) Age discrimination

I am 40. You wouldn't believe how many "in urgent need of a tech co-founder"
entrepreneurs recoil when they learn the fact. You won't fit in. You won't
understand us. Blah blah blah...

Umm...I assure you, if I can deal with half a dozen programming languages in
my sleep, if I can run a family, if I am strong enough to run 30+ miles a week
(on top of weight training), if I can complete my day job without swearing or
sweating, I CAN UNDERSTAND YOU and I WOULD NEVER JUDGE YOU based on your age
alone.

I only care about what you got under your skull cap.

2) Do you know this? Do you know that? Can you solve that tricky trick we
found on the Web this morning?

I don't care. If you have a problem, I will research it. Before you have 2
problems, I will have picked all the knowledge I need to give you 1 solution.
It could be something I already know. It could be something I never heard
about. I am a human being. Adapting is in my DNA and I adapt all the time.

3) We got this great idea/solution, will you help us build it?

I'm sorry, what is the GREAT problem (the GREAT problem someone will pay good
money to address) you wish to solve?

Honestly, guys, ideas are a dime a dozen, particularly ideas in the consumer
space where a business model seems to be optional.

What you need is knowledge about a tremendous pain/problem a lot of people
want to spend money on solving.

4) Success is a conjunction of talents.

I have great respect for business people, sales people, consultants, customer
service people, patent lawyers, finance gurus, etc. They all do things that
are essential to growing a sound business. Things I should not do.

Everyone must bring something to the table and everyone must know and
appreciate what everyone else brings to the table. Freeloaders sooner or later
sink the ship.

------
dools
We (programmers/engineers/developers whatever you want to call it) have a LOT
to answer for.

Evenly represented on the HN home page every few months are:

1) You don't need a programmer, you need a technical co-founder (aka. you
can't pay someone to do this job because you can't possibly afford it)

2) I am sick of people asking me to be their technical co-founder

The engineering side of tech have spend a good few years recycling each
other's kool aid and we're starting to _believe_ it. Hell we're saying the
same bullshit over and over so much that even the non-tech side is starting to
believe it.

The problems that 90% of companies solve are not difficult. There are
literally millions of people crawling the planet that can solve these problems
and yet our inability to work together has created an entire generation of
primadonna's like the OP that swan around like the bell of the ball.

------
captaincrunch
Well said, I'm a co-founder from Verelo.com - we knew each other for a couple
years. I can't imagine doing a start-up with a stranger... it'd never last.
The amount of things that come up, and the stress... you need someone you know
well. It's a roller coaster of a ride

------
rralian
I am also approached like this pretty often and have many of the same biases.
I was planning to write a similar (though less scathing) post myself.

While the author makes some grand generalized statements that he probably
doesn't _really_ mean, I think they are born of frustration. There are just
too many people who try to skip straight to being the "business person"
without any experience to back it up. The typical person who just needs "a
technical person" to build their vision... ugh. They ask to meet you for
coffee, but then want you to sign their NDA. It's because they think their
idea alone is their contribution of 50% of the business (or more), because
frankly they have no idea what it takes. But they can't match my own skills
and experience on the business side of a startup (and I'm the tech guy).

The story of Marc Benioff in the top comment, that's the story of a credible
co-founder. A successful person with years of knowledge and experience in a
lucrative market... I salivate over that prospect. For me that's a no-brainer.

So to you would-be biz-folk (talking to the n00bs here), just don't forget to
pay your dues. Get a job at a startup and learn what it's like. Take some
courses in programming and give it a shot. Learn all that you can about lean
startups and customer development. Validate your product with a concierge MVP.
Hire some college kid or cheap company in India to build your prototype. Show
me that you have some traction and something to offer and can find ways to
move forward even without the "tech guy". Then we can talk.

------
mark_integerdsv
Once I had a mad crush on this girl in my neighborhood. I spoke to my dad
about it and he suggested I write her a letter. I told him I was nervous about
what to put in it and I suggested that maybe I should write it, leave it, read
it in the morning and see if I felt I could send it.

My dad said something awesome that day. He said: "Mark, if everyone in the
world thought like that-there would be no love letters."

...I can't help but feel that if everyone in the world thought like this guy-
there would be no startups.

------
Czarnian
I must be reading this differently than a lot of people. I don't think he's
talking about actual business people. People with demonstrated experience,
skill, and/or ability.

It sounds more like he's talking about the idea tourist. The guy who truly
believes that the secret to start-up success is:

1\. Have an idea. 2\. . . . 3\. Make money.

I think we can all agree that the idea tourist is annoying. If all you bring
to the table is something as ephemeral as an idea, just keep walking. I've got
no time for you.

------
lrobb
>>>After all, I have make an investment and actual work while you played
around with excel spreadsheets and send out a few press releases?

I don't even know where to begin... Such a gross misunderstanding of what a
competent business development person can bring to the table. I know a couple
of guys that I would gladly sign up with for equity, knowing they can take a
product and bring in millions of revenue.

------
marcoi
These posts (of which there are plenty) rely on the extremely common and (I
think) extremely flawed assumption that company = technology +
marketing/sales. Hence, great tech + great network = $$$. A company is first
and foremost a product. Which involves understanding in a novel manner both
your users and the technology to build it. Great product people can be
techies, designers, "business people" (whatever that means), sales people,
doctors and housewives. They are those who define the company. Secondly, a
company is a team of individuals. Getting many people to work well together is
very hard. Then there is technology, marketing, and finance and HR etc. Of
course there are many "nontrepreneurs", but it gets boring to gripe about
them. More importantly, I feel like an engineer who pidgeon-holes himself as a
techie (and that's it) lacks ambition, and is unlikely to get senior in a
successful startup. All techies I can think of who started a big one seem to
prove this. (Signed: engineer AND business person)

------
jakejake
I've been around long enough that I've had many, many such pitches. Some from
serious business people and some from people with just an idea and no
experience at all.

I feel it's good to keep an open mind, but I do insist on an equal commitment
from all parties involved. One way for the business person to do that is to
raise the capital that pays our living expenses and operating costs for the
initial development. If I'm on board, I'll tell them to use my name to show
that we have a tech team in place. But if they can't raise any money then I
don't usually see a point in beginning the development phase. This sometimes
is a wake-up call to the person pitching. But even if the idea takes off, they
will be spending a lot of their time raising money. So if they can't do it
now, it's unlikely they'll be able to do it later when we need to grow the
company.

Of course like the OP I have to be at least interested in the industry or idea
as well.

------
hef19898
After having read his reasons of why he wont be my tech co-founder I'm almost
sure I don't want him as a co-founder neither.

You are only in it for the money: If you can make 60k in 6 months consulting,
than do that. I can't pay that much, I can't even pay myself that much. And if
your only contribution to the next FB is only worth 60k you aren't good
enough.

You undervalue me / overvalue yourself: 50 % of equity aren't enough? I invest
the same amount of time (which, by the way, also means money to me. Without a
start-up I would make 90k a year as a employee...). A start is like a child,
you know? 50-50 if it wasn't in-vitro.

I don't know you: Who are you? Well, we just met...

You are replaceable: Since you don't know the industry I want to develop a new
product for I can take about just any developer. As an employee you may fit
but not as aco-founder.

I haven't proven myself: That's why I want to do a start-up. Proving yourself
in business in a big corp means becoming a middle pointy haired manager. I'm
not going to be one, hence my missing entrepreneur track record.

You aren't passionate about it: I am, you not. Well, it is all about passion
so we may just not match in this particular endeavour.

Disclaimer: I don't even belief half of what I just wrote. Whoever finds irony
can keep it :-)!

Seriously, If you approach a future partner-in-crime like that nobody can help
you anymore. Everything is to late and you REALLY are bad in business. But if
you put any non-technical guy (general question: do you consider mech.
engineers as non-technical, too? If yes, I don't like you anymore ;-)) in that
category you aren't much better. And if you are that good that you don't need
the a idea / business guy why don#t you just go ahead yourself?

I already wrote things like that before, I'll repeat it now: You are looking
for a person you will spend more time during the next couple of years than you
own wife. Be carefull about who you pick, it is hard. Every party is risking
the same, time, money, career. Youare in this together, so respect youself.
And damn it, value your collegues! Respect them, as a professional AND a
person. That's one of the reasons lot of peopla start start-ups, a lack of
respect as an employee. And respect goes both ways.

Mind that, if you don't the only thing you will be is cocky first and business
or tech second.

EDIT: In y erlier post ([http://martingryner.com/how-i-screwed-up-my-first-
business-m...](http://martingryner.com/how-i-screwed-up-my-first-business-
model/)) he wrote that: "Technology wont solve all your problems", I think he
is right about that.

------
Schwolop
The take-aways to pay attention to here are the upbeat and less snarky parts.
Like that a _good_ business guy is worth his weight in gold.

I've been networking like a lady-of-loose-morals trying to find one, and it's
just as hard as finding a good engineer. (Fortunately as to the latter case, I
already are one.) As a result I've been doing the business development,
customer seduction - sorry, acquisition - and networking required to get this
done myself.

 _It's really hard._

Yes, there's a lot of idiots with business degrees and the first socio-loco-
mobo-deals app idea that popped into their heads. There's also a few business
minded geniuses hiding out there too. Don't dismiss them out of hand because
of the oversupply of the others.

------
kamaal
Good people are difficult to get in any profession. Good Hackers, product
guys, business guys, sales people are all difficult to get.

The problem starts when every Joe at the end of the street thinks merely
having an idea merits him to become a millionaire and guys who work that to
happen are fundamentally easily replaceable slaves. This works the other way
around too, if you are a bad programmer and you think selling is easy, and
sales guy is unable to sell you bad product then your wrong.

Execution is a art, no matter what is getting executed. Great execution is
difficult in any walk of life.

Just like how good hackers are a scare resource, so are good business people.
In general good people are difficult to get.

------
raarky
It feels like this was written out of frustation.

I understand the problems and points you have raised however, this post is
probably not a very good idea if you value your reputation.

When people google your name they might interpret this post as coming from
someone rather arrogant.

Just sayin' :)

------
tylermenezes
I always find it odd when I talk to a VC or someone about my startup and
they're surprised that we've known each other for 5-6 years and have worked
together before.

I can understand having an idea and not knowing how to implement on it, but I
can't understand trying to make a business out of that. I have many good ideas
I'm not qualified to have. I either take the time to become qualified (how I
learned programming in the first place), or just shelve them.

I think that's the same reasoning which caused YC to do the no-idea thing.
Ideas are cheap, the team is what's important. I guarantee someone had the
idea of Twitter before Twitter.

------
georgespencer
I'm sick of this sort of crummy linkbait. The exact same thing crops up every
few months on HN. "Ideas are a dime a dozen! Engineering is the one true way!
Execution is paramount! Reddit, here's a picture of my cute cat!"

It's not black and white (the cat, or the matter in hand here).

As a community, we all nurture fragile ideas. Some of them are big, bold ideas
(like beating Google at search), but almost all of them are very fragile.
People shouldn't labour on in delusion, but if you say the wrong thing to the
wrong dispirited guy who has been thinking about a brilliant idea for three
months, then you're going to harm rather than help. And you can help without
investing your asshole consulting time.

Nobody needs more assholes reflecting on their status within the startup
landscape ("I'm a scarce resource") and denigrating people who presumably are
coming to you to share ideas they're excited about ("available markers" –
whatever that means – "and business monkeys"), whilst simultaneously
insinuating that the work engineers do is somehow more vital or worthy ("I
have [to] make an investment and [do] actual work while you played [sic]
around with excel spreadsheets and send [sic] out a few press releases?").

Engineering is vitally important. But that alone does not encompass execution.
An MVP (or a P) is the sum total of the amount of sheer thought that has gone
into it from everyone who has worked on it or cares about it. Your asshole
consulting code doesn't mean anything if it's a feature which nobody needs. A
great software engineer contributes code and creative ideas which push a
project on. A non-technical co-founder should protect their engineering team
and contribute creative ideas which push a project on, whilst doing the grunt
work required to push the project on (pay your taxes. Find an office. Do an
angel raise. All the crappy ephemeral stuff that goes with a new startup). But
most importantly they are there to care and nurture fragile ideas.

The thing which I sincerely loved about this article was the last paragraph.
And it's probably a charge which could be leveraged at this comment, but you
should have reconsidered your entire post around the final paragraph. Instead
of making it a polemic against curious people with ideas who want to share
them with you, and telling them just why you're not interested in working with
anyone ever, you should have helped people be more persuasive with those ideas
in talking to highly technically literate individuals.

Yes, there are countless people who believe they have ideas which can change
the world. Yes, there are fewer engineers who can help them get there. What
these ideas people need is someone who is prepared to help them realise they
are at step 1 of 1.5m, and the most critical thing to do right now is get to
step 2. That takes five seconds. It takes a pertinent question. It takes
making them stop and think for a second. It doesn't take a list of vaguely
offensive barbs and generalisations.

Context: I am a semi-technically literate cofounder (HTML/CSS/JS, competent
PHP).

~~~
kator
I always love to piss off my tech friends by reminding them that Microsoft
didn't get to where it was by having the best engineering in the world..
Sales, Marketing and making hard deals that put their products in front of the
most customers.

I'm not saying I love their tactics but the "Build it and they will come"
really is a field of dreams and young engineers are all dreamers thinking
Sales and Marketing is a waste of people and money.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Yeah, but technical credits are easly demonstrated. Sales and Marketing are
squishier.

I've been through half a dozen startups. They each go through several Sales
teams before they're done - try some guys, sorry not working, get some more.
What does that tell you?

~~~
kator
It tells me the leadership of those companies don't understand sales
performance. :)

Sales people have the greatest jobs really! They either perform or they
don't.. Its easy to measure and easier to take action.

~~~
pudakai
Sales people, assuming commission is a large portion of their compensation as
is common, are the absolute easiest to measure -"Show me your w2 form from
your last job".

~~~
wtvanhest
That isn't how it works.

What if the person had a compensation package which paid really well for
selling a product which could be sold by over promising? Their W2 would look
awesome but the company would be screwed. I would be most cautious of business
people leaving a job with a strong w2. Also it is important to see relative
performance. What if they are making 100k and their coworkers are bringing
home 500k? Are they still good then?

------
dataisfun
This discussions (which seem to happens as frequently as sunsets) are so petty
and generally worthless. Lots of great businesses are driven by sales as well
as code. One is either building or selling a product. And great talent in each
department is hard to find. Yes, some consumer apps definitely require less
"sales."

But I'd wager there are lots more indignant engineers complaining about how
much in demand they are than there are engineers who are actually building
great companies.

Stop publicly complaining and go do something successful.

------
erikb
It's so true, but in both directions and also in the direction of the design
department. The thing is it's hard to find the real deal with all the people
out there who are quite confident about being the real deal, while they
actually aren't. Sometimes it's even hard to see yourself, if you are the real
deal or not, because it's just so easy to talk yourself into believing it,
while doing it is actually quite hard, right?

------
jefreybulla
I agree for the most part of this article. That's why I advice entrepreneurs
to go all-in and validate their idea before trying to find the perfect tech-
cofounder. I recently wrote a post about "I don't find a technical co-founder
what options do I have? ". I think you might enjoy it
<http://jefreybulla.tumblr.com/>.

------
josscrowcroft
I thought the author was smart enough (still do, actually) until I read this
gem:

 _"I am considering making separate business cards for people who want me to
be their technical co-founder. They will only have a QR code on them – to this
article."_

I don't know if I'd still be interested in a technical cofounder who used a QR
code to tell me why _I_ was mistaken.

------
humblebro
Could bare only reading this half-way through.My man,you come off as
pretentious,while at the same time you make mistakes like 'if that's the
case,forgot about startups'and'track recors' just to point out a couple.

And that would be fine,if you were not deluding yourself that you are some
type of a hot shot master of the universe.

~~~
mtjl79
You made a mistake. "Could bare" - I think you mean "barely".

Also: You forgot a space after the comma every time you use one.

So what where you saying about his article mistakes again? :)

------
pjmo
Basically this boils down to: If you're looking for a technical co-founder to
complement your skills, make sure you have built trust with someone, have done
your research, and understand why your building something. So pretty much like
every other position.

------
arnoldwh
Ha, you inspired me to write this:

"No I won't Be Your Business Co-Founder"

[http://arnoldhur.tumblr.com/post/22794390635/no-i-wont-be-
yo...](http://arnoldhur.tumblr.com/post/22794390635/no-i-wont-be-your-
business-co-founder)

------
Fuzzwah
@gryner: I checked your FB and noticed that English isn't your native tounge,
so straight up I give you props for being able to communicate in a 2nd
language waaaaaaay better than I ever will. However I found this article
difficult to read. It was thought provoking though, so I just did a quick fly
by edit.

+++++++++++++++++

NO, I WON’T BE YOUR TECHNICAL CO-FOUNDER

Hackers are becoming more and more like VCs, they often have to say "no". Last
summer, just before the 500 demo day I attended an event which required me to
fill in “company” on name tag. As I was there just to help out Zerply for less
than 2 months I didn’t feel adequate enough use their name. I didn’t bother to
write my consulting companies either as obviously it wouldn’t have said
anything. I decided to go for “Hacker”. I don’t think I would have been forced
to listen to as many pitches had I chosen “writing checks”.

Every week I get approached by someone with a “game changing” idea. All they
need is someone to execute it. “Hey, I’ve heard you are good at IT stuff,
let’s start up!”. Well, no.

I don’t know you.

Startups and babies have one thing in common; you don’t do them with someone
you just met. We will have to work together for years, sometimes 24 hours a
day. Chances are we just met and you just handed me your card or at least I
don’t know you well. How could I trust you with part of my business?

There are thousands of issues that can ruin the relationship between startup
founders, many of which can be foreseen. It might not even directly be your
fault. Perhaps you have an over-controlling spouse that wants you home by 6
every day? If that’s the case, forgot about startups in general.

I’m not passionate about the subject.

Passion is the fuel that powers startups, it helps get through tough times and
get things done. My passion is games. It isn't a hard and fast rule, but
unless your idea has something to do with games I probably won’t be
interested. People often approach me with a random idea they had, but without
the spark in their eyes. That’s a sure sign of approaching failure and I’m not
going to buy first class ticket on the Titanic.

You expect me to invest at least 60 000€

It’s reasonable to for MVP to take 6 months. We could release an earlier
version, just to be ashamed of it, but 6 months is probable. If we consider
just 8 hour work days 5 days a week it totals about 120 000€ by my normal
consulting rate.

Time is money; why should I invest mine in your idea? And if I do, why should
I accept only 50% or even less of the equity? After all, I have made an
investment of actual work while you played around with excel spreadsheets and
sent out a few press releases? Sarcasm aside, during first few months of
startup development, hackers are doing all the work and taking all the risk.
If we fail fast you have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of
intense work.

Your are easily replaceable.

Let’s face it – good hackers are scarce resource. That’s why you are talking
to me. However conferences, meetups and other places where startup industry
players gathers to escape the daylight are filled with available marketers and
business monkeys.

Only thing you have is your network. As a “business guy” in a startup I expect
you to have Barack Obama as a 2nd level LinkedIn connection and Zuckys number
on speed dial. Well, anyway much wider network than I have. If you don’t – I
probably don’t need you.

There are exceptions of course, people who have already proved themselves, but
that’s an entirely different ballgame. Experience in other fields does not
matter – even if they come from tech industry, startups are nothing like your
average business plan.

“I don’t know the IT stuff”

I don’t know anything about construction, medicine or farming. Common
denominator here is, I’m not planning to do business in any of these fields.
If you say outright that you know nothing about IT, it means you won’t respect
nor understand my work, will set unreasonable goals and probably won’t be
pleasant to work with. At least get some basic knowledge of the technical side
if you want any hacker to take you seriously. And lose the darn tie.

How to make me consider it.

I can think of two cases where I have seriously considered taking the role and
might actually do it at some point.

One of them was a guy approaching me with an idea for a piece of software he
desperately needed himself. Not desperately, but enough to invest money into
it. He was straightforward from the beginning – he knew the industry, knew the
problem and could provide the first clients and testers. Later on he hoped to
sell it to some bigger player – not change the world/cure AIDS or eliminate
hunger. It was barely a startup as he wasn’t hunting millions, just a quick
cash and to scratch his own itch.

Second case was a team of 2 developers asking me to be the third. They had a
better business model and market research than most MBAs that have asked me to
join. They also acknowledged that the task was so big they would benefit from
having another set of hands. I can respect that.

What did these two cases have that others haven't? First of all, I knew the
people for some time, one of them for about 10 years. Secondly they had well
defined goals and business models. You are not Steve Jobs, you do not have a
reality disorientation field. Vision is not enough. I want to see numbers and
research before I decide to make the investment of my time and effort.

I am considering making separate business cards for people who want me to be
their technical co-founder. They will only have a QR code on them – to this
article.

~~~
Nrsolis
Thanks for doing this. I thought about doing exactly this but was worried I'd
come off snarky.

Sometimes I'm a little too much of a grammar snob for my own good.

