
Millennials are keeping libraries alive - prostoalex
https://qz.com/1039294/millennials-are-the-ones-keeping-libraries-alive/
======
err4nt
I believe it! I'm under 30, have a good sized apartment, and I also rent co-
working office space in 2 places so I can always escape somewhere dedicated to
getting work done. Still, I'm _excited_ by the thought of the library system
in my city, and long to go revisit to the big reference library downtown.

To me libraries hold a romantic idea of being halls of knowledge, or even the
place in which studying and teaching is done. It's a temple of learning - and
no matter what you're studying, writing, or reading about - being in a place
surrounded by so many other excited, eager learners is a big rush.

I went to the public library near one of the universities and every surface
was filled with a laptop, with an energized student starting at it getting
work done. It was amazing.

I don't really check out books, but I'm hoping maybe the library could be a
future venue for me to teach free classes to people - it does seem like they
have educational classes running almost every day of the week.

How could a library not excite you? :D

~~~
ithought
Libraries are amazing and should be more celebrated and funded to expand their
core mission.

But cities like LA utilize libraries as refugees for homeless people which
completely destroys the purpose. It should be a refuge for people working hard
and trying to excel in life, not a place for people who have given up on life.
I'm happy that the homeless have a place to go but as a society, it seems like
we're doing everything wrong trying to fix the problem.

~~~
codehusker
What is your proposed solution? How does one limit a free, public resource to
only people with homes? A literal smell test?

How do people without homes "completely destroy the purpose"? Are they
stealing books? Breaking computers? Barricading the doors?

Do you really believe that all people without homes have "given up on life"?
Not a single one is "working hard and trying to excel in life"? Have you heard
of working people without homes? Particularly in LA, SF, et al. where the cost
of a home vastly exceeds the income of many people?

Do you think education could be a productive method for reducing the number of
people without homes?

~~~
ericmcer
I go to the SF library frequently and it is a gorgeous library, but it is
absolutely full of homeless. I have seen needles on multiple occasions, almost
always you will people hear screaming obscenities or just gibberish, and you
guaranteed will at least smell some pretty nasty stuff on any trip in there.

A couple days ago one of them threw themselves from the 5th story and landed
in the atrium. He could very easily have killed someone in addition to
himself. I have trouble rationalizing this romantic view of the homeless as
these poor downtrodden, down on their luck people who just need a hand up,
with the realities I see everyday of mentally ill, dangerous, and completely
uncontrollable people. They definitely are not there to read. A few have
developed the skill set necessary to direct the free access computers to porn
sites.

That being said I agree that homeless is not effective as a blanket term to
describe anyone without a home, huge difference between someone living out of
their car and showering at the gym, and a schizophrenic who hasn't bathed in 6
months.

~~~
sedachv
> I have trouble rationalizing this romantic view of the homeless as these
> poor downtrodden, down on their luck people who just need a hand up, with
> the realities I see everyday of mentally ill, dangerous, and completely
> uncontrollable people.

That is because this "romantic view" is a straw man you came up with so that
you can rationalize writing a comment attacking the homeless and the mentally
ill, instead of doing something constructive. Do you participate in the San
Francisco Tenants Union? Are you doing anything to help SB562 (single-payer in
California)? When was the last time you gave a homeless person change?

You can whine about homeless people all you want on HN but that says more
about your inadequacies as a person than about the homeless. Until the lack of
affordable access to housing and mental health services is resolved the
homeless population in California will keep growing.

~~~
hueving
Affordable housing will do absolutely nothing for the type of homeless people
OP is talking about (drug addicts and the mentally ill). They are homeless
because they have no stability in their life and would not be able to hold a
job to pay rent regardless of the cost.

The class of homeless you are referring to is people pushed out of their homes
due to rising prices and their limited income. These people (in my experience)
are not the ones going around screaming at people an not bathing for months.
You would most likely not even know they are homeless.

You are not talking about the same groups of people so you are talking past
each other and nothing productive will come of your exchange.

~~~
emodendroket
But what's the point of the distinction here? Are we really going to argue
that the best thing we can do with mentally unstable people who are unable to
hold a job is throw them on the streets?

~~~
Turing_Machine
I don't think anyone is arguing that. "Throwing them on the streets" and
"discouraging them from hanging out in the library unless they are actually
using it" are two different things entirely.

~~~
lenkite
No,I don't want homeless kids from being discouraged from hanging out in the
library just because they stink and make rich people uncomfortable. Just
because some folks don't acknowledge the dark side of the USA, where is
little/no support for your fellow citizens who fall off the train, doesn't
mean you can grind them down even more.

~~~
Turing_Machine
Only "rich people" are bothered by smelly, loud, violent people, and only
"kids" are homeless?

Uh-huh.

Can the histrionic rhetoric, dude. It's not working.

~~~
mbfg
Perhaps not only, but i'm guessing there's a strong correlation there.

~~~
Turing_Machine
You're totally wrong. And I'm not guessing.

------
Fej
Libraries have adopted technology in more ways than the obvious - my local
library is part of a system wherein I can order books from 70-some-odd other
libraries (for free!) and return them back to my local library. I can also
physically go to those other libraries, take out items, and return them at any
other library, all with the same card. The collection is fully searchable
online, with gobs of metadata on each item and the location and status of
every single copy (out or available), plus e-books. It's amazing.

Recently I ordered Minecraft for PS4 from another library to play with my
cousin (again, free) and when I went to pick it up I also went to the shelves
and took out _Discourse on the Method & Meditations_.

As a result of the system, the selection of media is... beyond compare. I
could not be happier that my tax dollars are going to my library.

~~~
Veratyr
I had this at home in Australia! I could order books from countless libraries.
In the Bay Area, my own local library unfortunately doesn't have anything like
this but the San Francisco library does. I recall having a book brought in
from Sacramento.

~~~
stevenwoo
I'm served by the Santa Clara County library system and I believe any thing of
which they have physical possession (DVD/book/tape/etc) can be transferred
between any branch for your convenience. Where exactly are you?

~~~
Veratyr
Alameda County. As far as I know, my library doesn't have this, at least
exposed in through the online catalogue.

------
dkhenry
I don't think you can draw any kinds of conclusions about who is "keeping
libraries alive" based on the data presented. The question is who has visited
a library ( at least once ) in the previous 12 months, and even with that
extremely broad question millennials only had 8% more people say yes then the
next oldest grouping. I imagine if you were to control for children and
proximity to a library you might see that margin shrink.

I think there is a case to be made that modern libraries are driving more use
with younger generations then previous generations, with my own family being a
frequent visitor of our local system. I think there is a social case to be
made that modern libraries are fulfilling a broad mission and provide a great
return on tax payer investment. Having a question of have you gone to a
library in the past year doesn't really show that.

~~~
s73ver
I think it's more supposed to be a riff and a counter to the bs "Millennials
are killing X" articles that are so popular lately.

------
curiousgal
To anyone who's old enough, has the media always been focused on the latest
generation? Like did the newspapers write about Gen X'ers being this and that
back at the time?

~~~
ZenoArrow
I'm in my early 30s, but I've seen similar things happen with previous
generations, yes.

However, not all generations are labelled as strongly. I think I'm part of a
'missing' generation. Technically I'm a millennial, but according to the top
definition here (I'm aware Urban Dictionary isn't always the most reliable
reference)...
[http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Millennial](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Millennial)
... I'd be a Generation Y Millennial. I do think there's a difference between
Generation Y and Generation Z, not in the way where one is superior to the
other, but in terms of the differences in the childhood and young adult
experiences that shaped us. When I read articles about millennials they're
almost always targetted at the Generation Z Millennials. I'm not complaining,
I'm grateful I avoided the type of pigeonholing that Generation Z has
unfortunately had to go through.

As for why this media focus on the next generation happens, I think part of it
is adults trying to make sense of an unfamiliar culture. Perhaps it's a
natural reaction when you have kids to try to make sense of the world they're
growing up in (when they're not with you). There's often an undercurrent of
negativity, though this can run in both directions (the baby boomer generation
is widely seen as greedy, for example, though of course such generalisations
don't really hold up to much scrutiny).

In short, yes.

~~~
daxelrod
I feel similarly. I think the best dividing line between Gen Y and Gen Z is
"Can you remember a time before internet access was ubiquitous?"

The terminology you link to is interesting, I had not previously seen Gen Y
and Gen Z combined with "Millennial" in this way.

------
pmoriarty
I keep forgetting to return my library books, and wind up paying huge library
fees, over and over again. I'm sure the library appreciates it, and I only
have myself to blame, but I wish there was a better way.

I don't use any of the "extra services" like computers (except for the
catalog), meeting rooms, etc. 90% of the time I just read physical books.
Occasionally I get a DVD or audiobook CD.

It's nice that libraries have ebooks available these days, but I never check
those out because they require me to use DRM readers. If they were plain PDF's
I'd definitely use them.

~~~
naner
Huge fees? The late fees at my library are $0.10 a day...

~~~
jasonjayr
If you check out multiple books at once, they add up quick. 20 books, a week
late and you're looking @ $14 fine :)

Also, our local library system charges $1/day for CDs and DVD's....

I've made my fair share of "forced" monetary contributions to our local
library, but it's money well spent.

~~~
throwaway91111
Well if you forget to return 20 books I can't say i'm hugely sympathetic to
your need for them.

~~~
djeikyb
Two parents, two kids, a few books each.. Fees at my local library growing up
were $0.25 per item per day

~~~
slobotron
Some libraries don't have late fees for kids books (when rented on child's
library card), or at least much longer borrow times...

------
alphonsegaston
I desperately miss the time when I had access to an academic library
membership. The depth and breadth of materials you have access to is truly
staggering. I remember when I first learned that I could order art exhibition
catalogues from other institutions all over the world, free of charge, I
almost cried.

The myth that everything is out there on the web is really belied by a few
hours spent in a subject-oriented academic library.

~~~
mjn
Depending on where you live, some academic libraries give membership (possibly
for a fee) to people living within a certain distance, as a kind of local
outreach/PR gesture. May be worth a look at a few universities near you to see
if that's the case.

One extreme example is that anyone who lives in Texas can apply for access to
any library in the "TexShare" system of public libraries, which includes the
state university libraries. You first get a library card from your local
public library, and then apply through the TexShare program for access to the
university library you want:
[https://www.tsl.texas.gov/texshare/card](https://www.tsl.texas.gov/texshare/card)

Generally none of these programs allow you to use the interlibrary loan
service though, only resources the library itself has.

------
arcanus
I'm always surprised more libraries are not coupled with good coffee shops.
Seems a perfect match.

There is a bookstore in Austin that has a great coffee shop inside, and it
certainly attracts folks to come in and browse.

~~~
DrScump

      Seems a perfect match.
    

A sure moneymaker of a business model. You could call it _Borders_.

------
dugditches
I'm going to have to say that _older_ people(seniors) are keeping libraries
alive.

I've seen programs at libraries to help the Elderly learn basic computing
skills, or have activities together(knitting clubs, boardgames, etc), to get
them out of their homes/retirement communities and to a new place.

~~~
swuecho
probably depends on the community. The library I usually visited were mostly
kids and their parents. the librarians are probably the only older people.
Another one, I did not notice many kids in the libraries.

------
mixmastamyk
We chose our place in part because it was two blocks from the regional
library. You can go on the website and order books from the central lib
downtown as well so just about anything can be at our fingertips within a few
days.

We really need it to keep our daughter entertained as well because we "cut the
cord" many years ago. She's an avid reader now, and I'm a proud dad. We're
reading the Never Ending Story currently, and it really is never-ending!

~~~
Kiro
Cut the cord?

~~~
bigtunacan
It's a common phrase that typically means getting rid of cable and/or
television.

------
zitterbewegung
My local library has a 3d printer accessable to everyone. You just have to pay
for filament cost really. It has laptops for borrowing, quiet spaces for
coding or studying. I don't know of anywhere else I could casually use a 3d
printer and have it printed out to me. Even the local hackerspaces around me
require you to get certified or something.

~~~
lordvon
Where do you live? That is awesome!

~~~
apetresc
I don't know about OP, but the Toronto Public Library system has this as well.

------
yborg
So apparently millenials love the public library for anything but the books.
"Many public reference centers have shifted their focus from offering things
to browse and borrow to providing services and being a social space.” How this
represents a _library_ in any sense escapes me.

I'm old enough to have been taught to use the paper card catalog in school,
and I was a library aide from middle school through high school. I always
thought of them as temples of knowledge, but temples in which the relics could
be borrowed by anyone. This along with the concept of borrowing and returning
always seemed to be a cornerstone of the ideal of an egalitarian society. So
it breaks my heart to walk into literally any of the local public libraries
and see what has become of their collections. They all now compete at offering
the most salubrious lounge experience, to facilitate which they have in some
cases removed as much as half of their former floor collection.

I do believe that in the 21st century the library has an important function to
serve in providing a place to access the Net for people who cannot otherwise
do so. Making space for this is justifiable in my view. Making space for
someone to drink a latte in a taxpayer-funded place of access to information
is not. There are many, many places that will provide such services far better
than the public library.

~~~
stevenwoo
Didn't realize they got rid of card catalogs - I learned that, too! I go to
the public library for the extensive DVD collection and quiet air conditioned
space to work in away from the office/home. I live in Santa Clara County so a
lot of older apartments/homes don't have air conditioning. They have a
different selection than Netflix DVD or streaming.

------
fapjacks
I wish it were a "thing" for libraries to take on the goal of also hosting
non-profit hackerspaces or makerlabs within their facilities. The for-profit
makerspaces are just too cost-burdensome for me to interact with. Ironically,
in a way, this is why I've got a fairly decent electronics lab in my study. I
see the pricetag for a single day pass at the local for-profit makerspace, and
balk at the cost, then just settle on buying the equipment myself. The only
times this hasn't been an exorbitant affair is when I need to use the CNC mill
or a high-quality 3D printer, for which a day pass at a local for-profit shop
is the only real option. Even then, about half of the for-profit maker shops
seem to not have high quality equipment. Like a 3D printer that allows them to
check the "3D printer" block on advertising for a day-pass, but actually is
not a good 3D printer. I feel like libraries and non-profit hackerspaces or
makerlabs come from the same sort of intellectual genesis, and would make easy
partners.

------
k__
In my sabbatical 2014 I went to libraries quiet much.

Cheaper than coffee shops and especially quieter than coffee shops...

But they got a big construction site on one library here now and the other one
isn't so nice... it looks like a prison for books :\

[https://www.baunetzwissen.de/imgs/1/2/8/4/6/0/5/6272648125_1...](https://www.baunetzwissen.de/imgs/1/2/8/4/6/0/5/6272648125_19210bc63d_o-9dfecbd3230f1953.jpg)

------
dalfonso
I love the library and will frequently check out books. I much prefer physical
books to digital books. There's something satisfying about holding a book,
opening up the cover, flipping the page, etc.

A few areas for improvement:

\- Most of the libraries I frequent have very slow wifi, but this may be on
purpose.

\- Most digital library catalogs have terrible UIs (broken back buttons, poor
search results, etc.) They work, but they're not fun to use.

~~~
JadeNB
> \- Most digital library catalogs have terrible UIs (broken back buttons,
> poor search results, etc.) They work, but they're not fun to use.

Talk to your librarians! In my experience, they welcome feedback, including of
this sort. Sometimes the response is "all the systems suck, and this one is
the best compromise we could find between suckiness and cost" (it always has
been for me), but it's also a good way to get involved in efforts to fix it
(for example, UI tests for proposed new systems).

------
mysterydip
I recently checked out the local library for the first time and was surprised
at how modern and alive it was. Aside from the expected books and magazines
were DVDs for borrowing, multiple computer centers for browsing or study,
workrooms and mini classrooms that were available for reservation, and a
simple self checkout.

------
jmenn
I work at a university so getting books hasn't been too big an issue for me,
but the public libraries near me have been pretty good about offering classes
to a broad group of people, and pushing their makerspace & 3-D printers. I
know my craftier friends are there frequently for the 3-D printers.

------
lr4444lr
_Many public reference centers offer targeted classes for emerging adults in
particular, teaching everything from car repair and financial literacy to job
hunting and general adulting. “Things that used to be taught in schools,”
Clarke notes._

Sad. Really sad.

~~~
Spivak
Isn't it a good thing that these skills are disconnected from formal education
so they can be made available to people of all backgrounds and ages?

~~~
lr4444lr
The right to education was loosely actualized in America but remains low
quality if people exit without skills in personal finance, for example.
Unfortunately, there is no "right" to a library, let alone one that offers
such enrichment. I'm all for programs in libraries that also help adults learn
how to read at an 8th grade level, but the need for that in the first place I
see it as symptomatic of how badly our schools would be doing, not as a
positive thing in and of itself.

------
pfooti
as a gen-x person, I love my library. I don't know how much of this is "San
Francisco, tech stuff" or how much is broadly available, but I'm able to get
books online via amazon (with a 3 week borrow period), quite a few comic books
(via hoopla), and quite a few audiobooks (both amazon and hoopla) through
their digital services.

I can also, of course, get books in paper form, requesting them online to be
delivered to my nearby branch, or just going to a branch and browsing. My wife
has read over 110 books this calendar year, the vast majority of which were
gotten via the SFPL.

------
JBlue42
The LA public library system is great. Has saved me a lot of money on books
over the years plus the have video streaming platforms as well as let you
access (for free) places like Lynda.com. I've been going to the library since
I was a kid (34 now) and used to hide out in the stacks at college. It feels
like a comforting place to me.

------
wink
I think I've not visited a public library since I first used Amazon in 2001.

While studying I've used the university ones a few times, but I've also always
preferred to buy my books if they were important enough to be read thoroughly
and repeatedly.

On the one hand I'm kinda sad about this, on the other hand I like to own and
revisit the books I read.

~~~
Top19
Libraries can be a great source of finding books to later order on Amazon.

~~~
andrewem
Funny, I do the opposite. When I find a book on Amazon, I'll see if it's at my
local library and if not put in a request to have it shipped from another
library in the same system (in my case, that system covers a number of nearby
cities and towns).

If I can't get it for free from the library then I'll consider ordering it
from Amazon.

Another advantage of the library is you don't accumulate more and more books
over time, unlike if you buy them.

------
Veratyr
One thing I think libraries really need to get on is digital preservation.
Look at what the Internet Archive has done and think about how important and
how expensive it will be in the future. Public libraries collectively have the
funding but perhaps not the expertise.

------
ChuckMcM
I think this is great but I also found the headline 'weird' since in the very
real sense that 'millenials' are the majority of the adult population of
working age they keep _everything_ 'alive.'

~~~
whatshisface
It makes more sense in the context of all the arrticles talking about the
things that "millennials" are killing.

------
linux2647
Millennials are keeping libraries alive because we can't afford to buy books.

~~~
vacri
Books have always been expensive. My mother ran a bookstore, and in the early
90s there was a new form of sales tax (Australia's GST) where books would no
longer be exempt - it was a real concern that this minor increase in price
might kill the business, taking books to just that little bit too much for
everyone.

The price of books over the years has been pretty stable, in adjusted dollars:
[https://theawl.com/how-much-more-do-books-cost-
today-28fea1a...](https://theawl.com/how-much-more-do-books-cost-
today-28fea1a7fcf8)

------
mjevans
Libraries are about the worship of information. All media should be welcome
and the needs of educating and providing the public access to that high
quality information in formats useful to them should be the focus.

------
fundabulousrIII
If by 'keeping libraries alive' you mean 'still using them' then millenials
may be just like any other person who doesn't want to spend their own money
for temporary access to varied information sources.

US Libraries in the 1970s, 80s and 90s were still logical places to do
research and work. I don't believe they are anymore. They are mainly archives
and public resources for those that can't afford information access privately.

I remember very fondly visiting the library in the 70's and reading for hours
there as a child but much prefer private access now.

