
A US judge’s ruling against the NSA is a big win for Edward Snowden - prostoalex
http://qz.com/545978/a-federal-judges-ruling-against-the-nsa-is-a-big-win-for-edward-snowden/
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dang
This doesn't add significant new information over
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10536683](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10536683),
so it counts as a duplicate.

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dogma1138
How is this a win for Snowden? They can deem the entire program illegal,
disband the NSA and put everyone in charge in prison for violating US law and
it still won't help Snowden get back into the US without cuffs.

Unless it's an executive pardon or a statement from the attorney general
exempting Snowden from prosecution this isn't a win for Snowden.

In any case there might be an interesting development as it might turn into a
catch 22 for the NSA if they'll claim that it's technically unfeasible for
them to filter out their collection based solely on specific
individuals/organizations (which is probably technically correct) it can open
a whole new can worms for them (since they've claimed that the collection is
targeted and ensures that certain parameters are met (other than it's a phone
call, email, skype call or 1 or more person(s) talking in range of a
microphone they can jack into)). If they'll find a way to comply well they
might be flooded by similar law suits, and even FOIA requests from individuals
and organizations about if and when any data about them was collected.

On the other side of the coin this might come to bite us in the arse if the
NSA makes a case that to comply with this ruling they'll have to perform in-
depth analysis of every communication they collect to ensure that no phone
call data is being collected which might involve J.J. Little, especially if
VOIP communications fall under this jurisdiction and ofc they can later claim
that any intelligence gathered from that analysis is lawful and
actionable/admissible because it was gathered in the course of achieving
compliance with a court order.

Dear Citizens,

In order to comply with Civil Action No. 13-851 Klayman et al. v Obama et al.
we now need to transcribe all domestic and international calls conducted from
and to the continental united states, the pacific states as well as any
incorporated and unincorporated territories and any commercial fleet vessels
sailing under the US flag in order to ensure that the call does not contain
any information, data or reference to J.J. Little & Associates, P.C. or it's
clients.

Sincerely the NSA.

~~~
jonknee
> How is this a win for Snowden? They can deem the entire program illegal,
> disband the NSA and put everyone in charge in prison for violating US law
> and it still won't help Snowden get back into the US without cuffs.

It's good for Snowden because it means he really was a whistle blower. Things
can still be good for him even though he's not back at home.

~~~
dogma1138
The guy is in Russia most likely under quite quite strict supervision, he
can't really go any where without looking over his shoulder and jumping at
every shadow, and no matter what he is still a wanted criminal by the most
powerful nation on the planet.

This isn't a win for him, he might be pleased with the outcome that a judge
has sided with a plea for a target specific injunction but it doesn't really
bring him any closer to being able to live a normal life.

Even if it comes to the point in which he wont fear being targeted for either
an extradition, rendition or an ol' plain hit by one of the alphabet soup
agencies of the US considering that in many cases he admitted that he has a
cache of documents hidden somewhere as an insurance allot of which were never
released the the press or to the public unredacted he isn't just a target for
US intelligence and Law Enforcement organizations he is a target of virtually
every intelligence organization out there who would love to get their hands on
unredacted NSA documents as well as any potentially actionable intelligence
Snowden might have in his head.

And heck even if he some how manages to come back to the US under a full
pardon or a no prosecution agreement of some sort he won't really be able to
live a normal life for the next few decades until every bit of the information
he may or may not have is no longer relevant.

~~~
guelo
When he blew the whistle to the press he knew he was in great danger of
rotting in a prison for the rest of his life but he did it anyways because he
was a patriot and he considered the risk to be worth it to save his country.
That the whole thing worked, the NSA's policies have been declared illegal,
means that his sacrifice was not in vain.

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rm_-rf_slash
Calling this ruling a "big win" is rather hyperbolic. As the article admits,
the scope is extremely narrow and applies to only one law firm, as well as the
fact that the program will (supposedly) changed in the coming months. Besides,
a federal judge already found the program itself unconstitutional and we can
all see how much that changed things.

Laws can change, as can public opinion. In the grand scheme of things, I can't
tell how this changes anything at all.

~~~
ChuckMcM
In the context of the larger conversation around what the NSA can and cannot
do, it is fairly huge because one part of the government is _on the record_ of
restraining another part. This is how the Supreme Court tells the NSA that
they better clean up their act or the judicial branch will start unilaterally
taking away powers they think they have but don't.

It is also another brick in the wall which shows the government defense of its
actions and that Snowden was a traitor (as opposed to a whistle blower) no
doubt hinge on the assertion that what the NSA was doing (and was disclosed by
Snowden) was _legal_. That is the bigger conversation that is going on here
and so one which Snowden is quite invested.

If he ever hopes to return to the US, he has to make an iron clad case that he
was a "whistle blower" [1] and not just violating his security clearance. To
do that, as I understand it, he needs to prove three things. 1) The activity
he was reporting was illegal (as opposed to just something he felt was
immoral), 2) that reporting it through channels was likely to be unsuccessful
in actually revealing the information, and 3) that was not enriched as a
result of his actions.

When you try to make that case against the worlds most powerful intelligence
agency you cannot do so with simple evidentiary rules. So I see a number of
cases and efforts which are putting into the judicial record decisions like
this one where the NSA's activity is called out as illegal _before_ Snowden
steps foot back on US soil and gets arrested for treason.

[1] Important note, I'm not a lawyer, 99% of the whistleblower information is
about securities fraud or OSHA safety issues, not constitutional violators.
It's not entirely clear that there is a whistleblower type protection for what
Snowden did.

~~~
swombat
I read the whole judgement and it felt very positive to me. It seems like the
effect that "separation of powers" should have - namely that the executive now
has the choice only to either comply or to enter into a protracted battle with
the judiciary, where they're going to piss off every judge all the way up to
the Supreme Court. I would hope that if the executive ignored the decision of
this judge, for example, the net effect would be to turn the whole judiciary
against them on this matter.

Eventually the executive ends up faced with a choice to either drop the
pretence of democracy (as democracy is not in line with the actions they claim
to need to do) or to change their ways.

One can hope...

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ogezi
What Snowden did was quite bold. it's truly a pity that he can't return to the
US. I hope to see more people like him and more judges like this one.

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PaulAJ
Does this mean that any other US citizen could file essentially the same case
with their local court? Even if only some of them succeed, it would mean that
the NSA is legally required to manage a long list of individual exclusions,
and that might help to gum up the works as well as forcing a proper resolution
of the issue.

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MrZongle2
I doubt that Snowden will be able to return to the United States and receive
fair treatment until after the current administration, and _its successor_
have left power. Possibly not until all the top and secondary positions within
the DOJ and intelligence agencies have switched hands a couple of times.

~~~
mikeash
It'll require a huge shift in the political landscape. I suspect that if we
see him coming back at all, it'll be as a humanitarian gesture when he's dying
of some disease in his 70s or 80s.

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ck2
Given the BS Hillary is saying about him, he will not be safe for at least
another decade.

I hope no-one ever convinces him it is a good idea to come back here and just
go on trial, they will railroad him right to solitary for the rest of his
life.

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ogezi
What Snowden did was quite bold. it's truly a pity that he can't return to the
US.

