

Denmark tackles youth unemployment with university cuts - MrJagil
http://www.west-info.eu/denmark-tackles-youth-unemployment-with-university-cuts/
I thought it was interesting with this discussion in mind: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=8394136<p>As other countries have shown some socialist movements in recent years (Obamacare, weed legalization, Germany making universities free etc), we in Denmark, praised for equality and happiness, are tightening the screw. We are not studying for knowledge anymore, but for profits.<p>Though I am Danish, I am not trying to complain or be overly emotional. It just seems very interesting that we&#x27;re all, globally, moving towards the middle.<p>Yes, I am painting with _very_ broad strokes. Pressed for time to find more evidence. Will update.
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MrJagil
I thought it was interesting with this discussion in mind:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8394136](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8394136)

As other countries have shown some socialist movements in recent years
(Obamacare, weed legalization, Germany making universities free etc), we in
Denmark, praised for equality and happiness, are tightening the screw. We are
not studying for knowledge anymore, but for profits.

Though I am Danish, I am not trying to complain or be overly emotional. It
just seems very interesting that we're all, globally, moving towards the
middle.

Yes, I am painting with _very_ broad strokes.

~~~
taylodl
At some point in time the University stopped being the place to gain knowledge
and instead became a trade school to gain a job. It's a reflection of
society's values: money and the things it buys is more important than
knowledge. Maybe it always was and we were just kidding ourselves thinking we
ever really valued knowledge. Anyway this will be interesting to see how it
plays out.

~~~
MrJagil
It just seems strange to me that despite swaths of evidence, people in
position of power _still_ think in short terms.

Though we all agree computer science is very important these days, who can
deny the societal importance of philosophy, psychology etc despite the job
market being narrower. Even fringe studies such as eskimology (the study of
Eskimo's, and yes, you can study that in DK) will certainly have value in some
way or another, same as going to the moon.

Knowledge for knowledge's sake is important _exactly_ because we _don 't_ know
it's importance or value.

~~~
lordnacho
"It just seems strange to me that despite swaths of evidence, people in
position of power _still_ think in short terms."

Are you kidding me? There's an election every four years and under the current
government there's been umpteen reshuffles. Politicians have to respond to
incentives, I mean opinion polls.

As a fellow Dane I am not surprised at all that our politicians, many of whom
are only partway through (the same) degree when they are elected, would take
the short view of things.

~~~
mkaziz
Does that mean the inability to think for the long term is a fundamental
limitation of modern democracies?

~~~
lordnacho
Well, I don't know if it's fundamental. I hope not. Perhaps you could change
the constitution somehow. You could mess with term lengths or limit someone's
tenure.

Or you could have a part time parliament like in Switzerland. That way the
politicians need normal jobs and are not dependent on the voters for a
livelihood.

The question is, once you have the current system, how are you going to get
the incumbents to vote themselves out of work?

------
BrianEatWorld
Doesn't supply and demand dictate that keeping population constant and
limiting career options will lead to an increase in supply in the still
available career paths? This will either be met by a decline in real wages or,
if real wages can't adapt due to regulations, an increase in unemployment in
those fields?

This seems a lot like trying to cure a symptom without understanding the
actual sickness.

------
crazy1van
I am for people choosing whatever major they want and taking on as much debt
as they feel comfortable. However, that freedom comes with the responsibility
of dealing with the job prospects attached to that major and the financial
burden of repaying those student loans.

Many students seem to think they should be able to choose a major with poor
job prospects, take on a lot of debt, and then complain to government and
society to fix their unemployment and debt woes. Well, this kind of policy is
what that leads to. If people want the government to insure they have a job
and absolve them of their debt, they should be prepared for a world where the
government also dictates what they can study.

~~~
ThomPete
That is exactly the problem.

There is a generation of young people who grew up believing that education is
a right rather a privilege and are now complaining that they spent all this
time educating themselves and now there are no jobs.

You would be surprised how much airtime this kind of entitlement gets in the
press in Denmark.

The sad truth is that education isn't what it used to be because educating
one-self in a world where new information is added in ever increasing quantity
is a never ending process. And so if you only think you need to really learn
and study when you are at the university you couldn't be more wrong it starts
in your childhood.

This unfortunately is lost on most.

~~~
x0x0
You know, those students didn't get that idea out of thin air...

------
mukundmr
So the 15000 students will be forced to join the courses in demand and that
will dry up due to increased supply. Then what? Will they keep moving courses
around every year? What happens to the teaching faculty for some course that
goes away and comes back?

~~~
ThomPete
Denmark have had a longstanding issue with too many students choosing
humanistic fields and going straight out to unemployment.

It's a welcome decision.

~~~
JamisonM
It is at least a perceived longstanding issue, how large a problem is it
really? How large an economic impact does it have? I suspect that the
government did not actually investigate those factors.

Denmark's unemployment rate stands well below the EU average, better than
Finland, France, Estonia, Belgium, and comparable to the Czech Republic.

Fixing possible non-problems with solutions that may have long-term negative
consequences is usually bad policy. No one knows what the future of employment
is going to look like.

~~~
ThomPete
It's not a non-problem its a big problem especially in a country where
education is free.

Unemployment is low because the public sector is huge and take a lot of those
people in. But a smaller and smaller percentage of the population pays for
that and so they can't continue growing it. This is the main reason why they
are cutting down.

With some of the highest taxes in the world and also free health care plus
very liberal social welfare model this is unsustainable.

And you could might as well turn it around. How big a problem is it really
that they minimize their approval of humanistic applicants.

Denmark is doing bad when it comes to building companies. It's very easy to
start a company but growing it is extremely difficult and not financially as
rewarding. They need more people to start doing stuff not just getting hired.

And then we haven't even touched on the more fundamental issue with the way
Denmark thought and still think about education.

~~~
JamisonM
Sounds like a lot of vague arm-waving to me. How is Denmark's government debt
to GDP ratio? Private debt to GDP ratio? Employment rate? Workforce
participation rate? Economic growth?

How do all those things compare to its peer group? You can't look at Norway's
petro-fuelled prosperity and decide they have the answers for you, look at
nations with similar economic structures.

What evidence is there of _actually_ unsustainable things in the economic
model of Denmark? Where are the symptoms?

Legatum's prosperity ratings have Denmark at #6 in the world overall and one
of the lowest in business startup costs _in the world_. (#2 in the world in
the entrepreneurship and opportunity category!) By every objective measure it
seems like a wonderful place to start a business!

~~~
ThomPete
Arm-waving?

I am from Denmark. are you? I had a company in Denmark with 70 people did you?

If you are really interested in answers to your own questions may I suggest
you get educated on the matter before you decide to make any haste judgment on
what I am telling you.

~~~
MrJagil
That is a poor appeal to your own authority. Thom, I'm Danish and entirely
disagree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread regarding
analysis and solutions, and I'm really sad that you discuss as if your words
are gospel.

Buzz phrases like "... it's unsustainable!" really don't belong here. They're
impossible to argue for or against as the data is really clouded.

~~~
ThomPete
Compared to who I was discussing with i HAVE authority.

Fine that you disagree now make your case.

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wisienkas
From what I further read about this issue, was that in south denmark, more
directly "University of Southern Denmark" was being cut by up to 50% in some
courses, but the unemployment in that area only being about 5-10%.

What I don't understand is that the danish government didn't plan the cutdown
with any specialists or people already working with the problem.

~~~
ThomPete
I am not sure what you mean. Danish government is cutting down primarily in
the humanistic fields around 4000 chairs all in all. A lot of people who live
in Copenhagen go to "University of Southern Denmark" it's not so important
where it happens.

Denmark have way too many people in the humanistic field and they are
rightfully cutting that down.

Also keep in mind. Education is 100% free plus you get subsidized when you
take education.

~~~
wisienkas
I just think theirs a higher chance that you'll stay in the area where you
took your education. so in that regard some areas might go short on workforce
in a few years.

Apart from that you are all right. I get "paid" for studying, which of course
comes at the cost of my earning being cut in half or well less for the rest of
my life, do I decide to work in Denmark.

I think and have thought for a long time that you should lend the money
instead, so that you won't have any people just studying to "leech". But maybe
that's a discussing for elsewhere.

~~~
ThomPete
Everyone is moving to Copenhagen. Denmark is a small country. Even people who
live in southern Denmark work in Copenhagen the drive is 1-2 hours max

I actually left for the US but I am more or less autodidact so I didn't leech
:)

~~~
wisienkas
You are right that Denmark is a small country, I've been to USA too, and I
talked to a lot of people working in cities 2-3 hours drive away. So by that
yes.

However, and I might be somewhat wrong, but I've seen more people beginning to
crowd around either Odense, Aarhus or Aalborg the last few years. This is
however my own observation from students who finished their education that
I've run into.

~~~
ThomPete
Yeah the bigger cities not just Copenhagen. But it doesn't change the fact
that location isn't that big of a deal.

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vesinisa
In Scandinavia, the universities are generally almost 100% tax-funded, so one
might say it's right for the government to demand a higher "Return Of
Investment". Surely there could also be private tuition-funded universities
and/or tuition-funded programs in public universities for those who can and
want to finance a decree in a purely humanistic field.

