
Toshiba’s loss of star engineer tells tale of company's decline - cinquemb
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Toshiba-in-Turmoil/Toshiba-s-loss-of-star-engineer-tells-tale-of-company-s-decline
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jpatokal
"Dangling salaries of 10 million yen", or about $91k. The fact that this is
considered unusually high tells you all you need to know about engineering
salaries in Japan. (And yes, IT salaries are in the same ballpark.)

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scrollaway
$91k for an engineer salary is unusually high everywhere outside of the united
states and switzerland.

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msh
91k is not uncommon (it's often higher) for senior developers/engineers in
Scandinavia.

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philangist
I'd love to work in Norway or Sweden one day. Do you know what the tech scene
in Oslo or Stockholm are like? My experience is mostly in building
backend/distributed systems.

~~~
mseebach
The scene is great in Stockholm, anchored in Spotify, King and a good
representation of games companies (EA has a decent representation if I
remember correctly). My knowledge of Oslo is limited, but from what I have
heard, thing are a bit stunted there.

Copenhagen (my former home turf) used to be not great, basically software
engineering was/is considered low status and all the smart devs in
corporations were steered to higher status, but less technical, roles like
architect, consulting or project management (or other middle management).
Denmark really bought into the idea that we're the ideas people, the grunt
work can be done in India or Poland or whatever. Some successful software
startups came out of there, like Endomondo, Vivino and Zendesk, but they moved
their centre of gravity to the bay area at first opportunity. This has since
changed, and from what I've heard there's a fairly happening startup scene
there now (still an awful place to be a corporate dev, though).

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lettergram
It's really not much better in the U.S. or elsewhere. I believe it was Nokia
which had a patent program where it was a $500 bonus per patent. Meaning, even
if you invented something - that was your bonus.

In my current role we have a similar program, beyond the relatively small
bonus I think the only benefit is bragging rights. Patenting or inventing
something means little to superiors. Large companies focus on the short term
stategic initiatives, often being unable to capitalize on long term or even
short term opportunities. That's why more nimble startups are more effective.

~~~
simplyinfinity
Same in my EU based company (~600 ppl, owned by a large conglomerate ), we are
encouraged to come up with all kinds of BS to patent for a one time bonus of i
believe 1000$ or 1500$ and your name on the patent

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sofaofthedamned
Was the same with Cisco too, I can't understand how this is presented as a
failure of the Japanese when it seems standard in the industry.

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sjburt
I don't think the bonus was the issue so much as the career path. He left
Toshiba after being "promoted" into a position where he had no subordinates
and no budget.

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weiming
My understanding is that Japan has some of the smartest professionals, and yet
very tough (unrewarding?) work conditions, especially in the megacorps.

If so, it appears that there is room for foreign companies/startups (US, or
even Chinese) to establish office in Japan and recruit away the best people
with better pay/perks/vacation time/etc. Sort of "recruiting arbitrage." Heck,
the same happened in the US in the past 10-15 years with a relatively small
number of firms siphoning off the best talent.

Curious if there are any examples of that (e.g. I know that Google has an
office in Tokyo, but I don't know what kind of work they do.)

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sotojuan
Quitting a typical salaryman job is a tough mental and cultural barrier for a
lot of Japanese, so the best bet would be to hire new grads or young people.
Even then, it might be tougher than it looks.

That said, megacorps in Japan offer "perks" that American, especially tech
companies, do not offer. See patio's post (scroll down to the "The company
hereby promises the employee" section) for some examples:

[https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-
japan...](https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/)

In many ways it's the opposite of our SV-style company culture, where we
switch jobs every 3-5 years.

~~~
Something1234
It's absolutely horrifying to me. For one think to completely occupy my life.
I might be risk adverse, but this is a whole new level.

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zenovision
Salaries in Europe are also very low for software developers. In Germany you
will make on average 50-60K euro per year as a senior software developer.
After tax this is less than 3000 euro per month. Similar situation in the UK.
This is the reason why not a single company from Europe reached the TOP-10 in
the world by market cap. Talents are moving away from Europe. According to
news I read, 140000 people leaving Germany each year, especially people with
high qualification.

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Barrin92
You have to take into account the different workload and priorities. The
average annual rate of hours worked in Germany is 1300 hours roughly. In the
US it's 1800 hours, eclipsing even Japan. That's more than three full months
of additional work.

Germans usually express a preference for long-term stable employment and work-
life balance rather than skyrocketing salaries. The same is true for a lot of
European countries.

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twblalock
Keep in mind that the "official" work hours reported in Japan are bogus
because many Japanese workers do not report overtime, nor do they report the
hours they feel obligated to spend with their team after work hours.

Work-life balance for software engineers is a bit better in the US than it is
in Japan.

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HillaryBriss
_Chip engineers abandoned Hitachi, NEC, Sony and other Japanese electronics
companies in droves, starting in the second half of the 1990s. Samsung
Electronics of South Korea hired many on favorable terms ..._

Apparently, in the 1980s, Japan used to outlaw Japanese engineers traveling to
South Korea to advise South Korean companies. Ultimately, this strategy
failed.

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myrandomcomment
I wanted to hire someone that worked for a local Japanese company to come and
work at my startup. Just handed then an offer letter that was 2x their current
pay package. Done. Still cheaper then US package. It is sad what very good sr.
people get paid in Japan. Makes it much simpler to hire them away.

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reustle
Unless they will be based in Japan, it's not that easy all the time.

~~~
myrandomcomment
This was hiring local in Tokyo for a Tokyo based role.

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dennisgorelik
"Unhappy with what he saw as Toshiba's failure to reward his work, Masuoka
quit to become a professor at Tohoku University." That is a weird choice,
considering that he was looking for a better recognition.

He should have pursued a career at one of competitor firms, possibly in the
US.

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thadk
Varieties of Capitalism literature does a pretty good job describing what
compromises may be happening here:
[http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~phall/VofCIntro.pdf](http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~phall/VofCIntro.pdf)

When I was first introduced to this concept, someone pointed out this partly
indicates why 3D printing innovations are introduced by US firms and often
then refined by German or other coordinated market economy-based firms.

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dingo_bat
I remember my toshiba laptop as one of the best laptops I've owned. Solid
construction, no skimping on components and stellar service. When it was time
to upgrade I didn't find anything comparable, went with an HP that literally
melted from its own heat within a year.

~~~
majewsky
That's the problem with anecdata: My friend's 2011 HP Elitebook is working as
well as ever. (Maybe don't buy a consumer model?)

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felixarba
That's what I thought as well about HP, just anecdata, but every single HP I
had (3 of them in total) broke within a year, for various reasons. I always
thought it was just a coincidence, but then I got a Toshiba in 2014 and it's
as good as new still.

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cuddlypsycho
I am not suggesting that Toshiba (or other tech fossils) has the right culture
when it comes to dealing with its engineering talent .. BUT .. If a company is
de-risking the process of inventing/commercializing a new solution for its
engineers, then they are entitled to the IP.

"A team led by Masuoka paved the way for the practical application of flash
memory. The team was small when it was created in the 1980s, with an annual
budget in the hundreds of thousands of dollars."

Asking for a bonus as an engineer for doing your job well is like begging for
tips for waiting tables! If you don't think you are being compensated well for
your skillset and you can get a better deal elsewhere then quit!

If one thinks they have a great idea that would be incredibly profitable, they
should quit their job and develop it on their own dime. I have a background in
micro/nanofabrication and highly doubt that Mr. Masuoka could have done what
he did in his garage, without the state of the art fab technology available at
Toshiba at the time.

A piece of advice to startup founders, always ALWAYS have a "propriety rights
agreement" in place with whomever you work (contractors, employees, interns),
detailing the ownership status of the IP created as a result of the
collaboration. Without one, this could be a potential show-stopper later on
when you are looking for outside investments and going through due diligence.

~~~
ckocagil
Since you don't agree with the ethical side, think about it this way: if
you're not known in the industry for paying bonuses for successful projects
and inventions, why should any brilliant engineer look forward to work for
you? Not to mention that there will be no motivation among your employees to
perform more than the absolute minimum work required to keep their job.

Consider whether you would like to own 80% of a failing company or 30% of a
widely successful one.

~~~
cuddlypsycho
"no motivation among your employees to perform more than the absolute minimum
work required to keep their job"

There is a great body of research suggesting quite the opposite actually.
Beyond a certain level of compensation, offering more money does not correlate
with better productivity or creativity at all.

Those who are satisfied with doing the absolute minimum to keep a 9-5 job are
not suddenly turned into great inventors if offered more money. I have often
found that the most valuable engineers are their absolute worst critic when it
comes to quality of work and work ethics. They would put in their absolute
best even if they were doing something for free/opensource.

~~~
mmt
> Those who are satisfied with doing the absolute minimum to keep a 9-5 job
> are not suddenly turned into great inventors if offered more money.

That may be true, but that doesn't mean the converse isn't true, which is
what's being alleged here, that a great inventor can be turned into an
absolute-minimum employee when given insufficient reward.

More specifically, I think you're conflating the typical "inventives" that
employers use (which I what I believe the studies have been about) with
credit, respect, and/or an ownership stake. Even the article has a quote about
it being not about the money.

> They would put in their absolute best even if they were doing something for
> free/opensource.

I'm speculating here, but I would expect that would change if they had to do
that contribution under someone else's name, especially if that someone else
were a manager and not an engineer.

~~~
cuddlypsycho
> A great inventor can be turned into an absolute-minimum employee when given
> insufficient reward

Absolutely true.

> Even the article has a quote about it being not about the money.

I don't think that is the case. "Unhappy with what he saw as Toshiba's failure
to reward his work, Masuoka quit to become a professor at Tohoku University."
He was very well compensated AND given full credit and even allowed to publish
his work.

It was ABSOLUTELY about the money! As the article mentions: "He left Toshiba
in 1994, before commercial production of the chips got rolling. A decade
later, Masuoka filed a lawsuit against Toshiba, demanding 1 billion yen in
compensation for his work in developing flash memory."

From a different article:
[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/07/31/toshiba_settles_wit...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/07/31/toshiba_settles_with_flash_memory_inventory/)

"Masuoka had told the court in 2004 that he believed ¥1bn ($9.1m) was
appropriate compensation for the contribution his inventions had made to
Toshiba's profits"

> I would expect that would change if they had to do that contribution under
> someone else's name ...

Again, absolutely true. But that was not the case here at all. If anything we
should recognize that Masuoka was the lead scientist for a team of engineers,
that means he had a more managerial role and other junior engineers actually
did the work.

I don't think we really disagree on anything. I just hate it when people take
out their pitchforks and go after the "big, bad corporations" every time one
of these articles hits HN :/. Japanese culture is very different than what we
in the west are accustomed to and the situation is a lot more complicated than
just blaming all on the evil CEOs.

~~~
mmt
> It was ABSOLUTELY about the money!

FTA:

    
    
      Many called Masuoka greedy at the time.
    
      He was unfazed by the critics. "Money is not the issue," Masuoka said. "I just want to continue with research and development. Japanese engineers must be rewarded."
    

It's as though you're trying to make the point that, because money is _a_
factor, it's _the_ (or only) factor. That doesn't jibe with the totality of
the story, nor with, more importantly, the research, with which you're
obviously aware, since you brought it up in the first place.

It's also pretty easy to point out a money motive in the face of a civil
lawsuit, as one can't sue (directly) for respect. That he eventually settled
for less than 1/10th the amount he sued for suggests (to me, anyway) that it
was more a shaming/publicity exercise than a money-making one.

> If anything we should recognize that Masuoka was the lead scientist for a
> team of engineers, that means he had a more managerial role and other junior
> engineers actually did the work.

I didn't see this mentioned anywhere, especially with regard to the invention.
As such, I'm not willing to make any such huge leaps of assumption.

> I just hate it when people take out their pitchforks and go after the "big,
> bad corporations" every time one of these articles hits HN :/.

I'm curious as to why you perceive there being some kind of mob mentality
("pitchforks") and which comments here have name-called corporations.

I find it very relevant to discuss the compensation (monetary and otherwise)
of highly productive (or potentially so.. "talented") employees and how they
are allocated, usually a question of where/what they choose to work on.
Personally, I find it worth the occasional emotion or blame-mongering creeping
in.

> Japanese culture is very different than what we in the west are accustomed
> to and the situation is a lot more complicated than just blaming all on the
> evil CEOs.

That's as may be, but also somewhat irrelevant to the discussion, since,
ultimately, it doesn't matter who/what is to "blame", at least not to the
engineers, not if they have a choice. Increasingly, especially with the
globalized labor market, they do.

