
Students are the victims and culprits of India’s broken higher education system - ad93611
http://qz.com/86903/students-are-the-victims-and-culprits-of-indias-broken-higher-education-system/
======
lake99
I agree that nationalism is ruining India. But, this article paints quite a
one-sided picture. You can see that in this sentence: "Indian students are
taking their useless Indian liberal arts degrees and going abroad to get real
ones that signify a real education".

See? That's just it! Most people who do well in high-school get pushed into
technical fields. My cousins are mostly engineers or doctors, and a few are
lawyers. "Liberal arts"? That's something that children of rich parents do
when they are not too good at studies. Some girls do it when they want to be
housewives when they are done with studies.

I have a bachelors in EE (E&C) and have worked for a few multinationals. I
have had to work with western-European and American colleagues. If I were
asked for my subjective evaluation, I'd say that my EE colleagues at this
level are more or less the same. Yes, the degree mills of India do churn out
engineers by the millions. 10% of them understand what they have learnt. The
others memorize and regurgitate their notes. It's fairly easy to screen people
at this level. And that's why I find my colleagues comparable.

Leaving aside medicine, about which I know nothing, a masters degree from
India in science or engineering is mostly useless. Academia, with the
exception of IITs and IISc, is mostly a joke.

To conclude: Yes, education here is generally bad, but not as bad as this
article paints it out to be.

~~~
jbattle
I'm a little confused - you are saying the article is overstating things, but
that degrees in science, engineering, academia, and possibly medicine are
"mostly useless"?

~~~
lake99
I'll clarify.

I'll make no comments about medicine - I know nothing about education in this
field.

The bachelors programs in the IITs are great, by global standards. IISc does
some cool work too. Leaving those aside, a BS in engineering (called BE or
BTech here) is not bad. We have some outdated courses, we don't have the
freedom to choose courses, etc. But for most of our courses, we use the same
textbooks as Americans, Brits, Australians, etc. I suppose we have similar
kinds of lab sessions too.

Academia (includes bacherlors, masters, PhD, post-doc, professorship, research
papers, conferences, journals, funding, etc.) in India is generally terrible.
ME/MTech in India is mostly useless. BE/BTech in India is not bad.

~~~
manish_gill
> I suppose we have similar kinds of lab sessions too.

No! Not by far. The "lab sessions" in a typical non-IIT Indian engineering
institutes are a joke. Ever heard of the Borland Turbo C compiler? Yeah,
that's still used to teach students C/C++, with outdated (and non-standard)
code.

I've had similarly horrible experience in any and all labs, be it circuits and
systems, networking, or whatever else you might think of.

Thank god for the Internet, otherwise I would have never have known better.

~~~
lake99
This is a random sample. How different was your lab session compared to
[http://engr.case.edu/merat_francis/eecs245/EECS%20245%20Syll...](http://engr.case.edu/merat_francis/eecs245/EECS%20245%20Syllabus.pdf)
?

~~~
manish_gill
The mere fact that the instructor has a schedule put up and sticks to it makes
it better than any lab session I had.

Oh, and it's not just something I alone experienced, so writing it off as a
"random sample" makes no sense. This is /the/ situation with most colleges
here. Which is kinda the entire point of the article.

~~~
lake99
> The mere fact that the instructor has a schedule put up and sticks to it
> makes it better than any lab session I had.

You seem to be impressed by the oddest things! FWIW, our labs adhered to a
schedule too. Engineering colleges in India fall on some range within the
spectrum. You seem to have studied at one of the poorer ones. k4rtik, below,
seems to have studied at one of the better ones.

When I made judgements, I made it on the basis of the output of Indian and
western colleagues. Compiler versions are a non-issue for me. µA741, though
outdated, taught me well enough.

------
ilamont
I had a history professor who attended Berkeley in the 60s. He recalled the
instructional methods used by one of his own professors at Berkeley: He simply
got up to the podium, opened a textbook, and started reading. There was no
discussion or chances to ask questions. As I recall, he indicated that this
was a method of lecturing that had its roots in European academia.

A question for HNers from India: With such a long history of sending students
to British and American universities, are Anglo-American methods of teaching,
research, mentoring, etc. transferred back to Indian universities by returnees
who start academic careers?

~~~
microarchitect
_transferred back to Indian universities by returnees who start academic
careers?_

Of course, they are. I went to a top-tier school in India for my masters
degree and I'm now a graduate student at a well-known private university in
the US. I would say there is very little difference in the quality of teaching
between my Indian alma mater and my current university. The main advantage
here seems to be an army of teaching assistants conducting office hours,
"precepts" and such which probably help struggling students. But I think the
in-class lectures, homework assignments and exams are of the same quality.

I also went to a second-tier private school for my undergraduate degree and
that is where I experienced the sort of teaching the article talks about. I
think, like most of India's other problems, it boils down to economics. I paid
about about $1200 in total for my four year undergraduate degree. I believe
the government supplemented some of this with a grant to private institutions
for students who met a merit criterion. But my point is that this is very
little money and you can see why it would be quite difficult to recruit and
retain high quality teaching talent.

The top-tier institutions - the IITs, IISc, IISERs, ISI and so on - don't have
great salaries but they make up for it with prestige, perks (on-campus
housing, cheap food, discretionary financial awards) and research grants. But
beyond the cream of the crop, unfortunately it isn't a rational economic
decision to go into teaching in India. This isn't to say nobody does and I've
had a few really great teachers even at my undergraduate school but I also
realize that India is a poor country with no social safety net. I'm not going
to judge anybody for choosing financial security over social service.

~~~
RestlessMind
This. The main problem at Indian undergrad institutions is lack of good
teachers. And that is because of poor pay. I went to a top colleges at one of
the decent universities (a step below IIT / REC). I had exactly one great
teacher who was passionate about his subjects. 10-15% were decent. But most of
them were a joke. And my friends at other colleges under this university, too,
had similar experiences.

Apart from good pay, another reason for having poor teachers is reservation /
quota for teaching positions. So even if someone doesn't deserve to be
teaching, one would be doing so just because of his/her caste.

------
shared4you
> reservation system for the admission of scheduled castes and others residing
> at the bottom of India's _socioeconomic_ pyramid

Correction: it's _social_ pyramid only. Classification of SC/STs is purely
based on caste alone, not on economic status -- and we must fight to make it
_economic_ -only pyramid.

~~~
furyg3
As an outsider, I would certainly agree with your comment. Caste quotas seem
like they would only strengthen the system...

Still, how synonymous is caste with economic status? I would guess "very" but
your post makes it seem like there are some interesting nuances. What are
India's caste demographics, anyway?

~~~
test001only
Initially caste based quota was chosen because they were discriminated against
by the society for a really long time. The profession one would go in was
based on the caste they were born into. A barber's son would be barber, a
cleaner's son would be cleaner. Here is one example :
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadasi> . People from certain caste are still
socially backward while other caste have managed to come out. The problem is
the reservation system is not reformed based on that. This is a topic of hot
contention.

~~~
known
[https://www.change.org/petitions/independent-nation-
for-300-...](https://www.change.org/petitions/independent-nation-
for-300-million-india-s-untouchables)

------
_gotmilk
There are no Indian universities in the top 200 universities according to the
QS World Universities rankings. There are only 3 in the top 300! While I don't
know if this is an institutional deficiency(lack of research, distinguished
professors) or a lack of quality among students, one thing is for sure and
that is Indian degrees are not very respected worldwide aside from possibly
Indian Institute of Technology.

From what my father tells me, the K-12 education system is also broken. The
public education system is considered a joke in India to the point that anyone
who can enrolls their kids into private schools as soon as possible. Most
students who pass India's rigorous college entrance exam take extensive
coaching(as my cousins have), and this results in a system of college
acceptance being determined by wealth.

The thing is, I can't see change coming. India has yet to address nationwide
corruption that cripples the whole country!

~~~
kinleyd
It's for lack of research, distinguished professors, facilities... certainly
not the quality of students. Graduating from St. Stephen's nearly 30 years ago
I can say that the average student there was pretty damn smart and really hard
working.

The article is spot on in many respects, except for the reference to finding
only one applicant to Brown that he really enthused over. That is his
experience, but in mine I can assure you that there were a heck of a lot of
students most top universities in the US would compete over. In my time the
principal and other staff were far more liberal - there seems to have been a
sad regression judging from the position of the present principal.

------
k4rtik
This was published weeks back in The Hindu:
[http://www.thehindu.com/features/education/college-and-
unive...](http://www.thehindu.com/features/education/college-and-
university/an-indian-education/article4683622.ece)

~~~
tokenadult
We should read the original source and not be stuck with the weird page
styling of Quartz then. The HN guidelines discourage posting anything but the
original source, so that's all the more reason to do so.

------
squozzer
All I can say is "good luck, you'll need it." I don't think India has a unique
problem with its' higher ed system.

Consider that the modern university is based on ideas developed in the late
Middle Ages, throw in a healthy dash of politics (both formal and informal),
and the gatekeeper factor, why would any university feel the need to change?

Do today's kids have the gumption to boycott the system? We didn't - instead
we adapted, just like the kids at St. Stephen's.

To be fair to Indians, we Americans probably get even more agitated at
criticism from outside (or inside.)

~~~
jseliger
_Consider that the modern university is based on ideas developed in the late
Middle Ages, throw in a healthy dash of politics (both formal and informal),
and the gatekeeper factor, why would any university feel the need to change?_

To be fair, the idea of the university got started in the Middle Ages but they
have changed quite a bit since; if you're interested in the subject, take a
look at the latest edition of Clark Kerr's book _The Uses of the University_ ,
which traces changes in American universities from the post-War period to the
present. Louis Menand's _The Marketplace of Ideas_ is also very good.

(Disclaimer: I'm writing my dissertation on academic novels.)

~~~
saraid216
Ooooh, I have been looking for precisely a book on that topic. Thanks!

~~~
jseliger
If you're deeply interested in these things, send me an e-mail—the address is
in my profile.

------
lappet
The author of this article tweeted a response by a Professor from the same
college: [http://kafila.org/2013/05/06/the-golchakkar-of-premier-
insti...](http://kafila.org/2013/05/06/the-golchakkar-of-premier-institutions-
st-stephens-college-as-a-public-concern-n-p-ashley/)

~~~
test001only
That was a well written article. The following quote from the article shows
the situation in India : "If 7 Cabinet ministers, 19 Members of parliament,
such a lot of IAS officers, many writers, artists, actors, media personalities
and so on came from a single college in a vast county like India, it speaks
more about the limited circles that monopolise different kinds of capital in
the country than about the training they receive in college. "

------
dredmorbius
Ugh. Quartz. Readability makes this much more tolerable:

<http://www.readability.com/articles/ppb4ycws>

------
jabbernotty
Again, I can't reach the article. I end up at "China manufacturing shrinks in
May, leaving policymakers with few good options", just as happened with the
previous qz link

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5756176>

------
3apo
I feel the comparison to American Educational system is rather unfair, the
American Higher Education being much more evolved and the best there is. IMHO
Indian Education system would compare favorably to many other countries with
the same socio-economic factors. This is not to say the system does not need
to improve, but so does the Education system everywhere else (more of the sort
of MOOCs/Khan Academy for instance; college fees have been increasing sharply
in India).

In my personal opinion historically the Colleges in India were more occupied
by handing out more degrees and not education. To go beyond the routine was
always due to self initiatives of the select few and not the majority. If the
colleges increased the standards higher than the usual then a majority of
students would fail ( "out of syllabus" was a regular complaint if the exams
were too hard). This is not a critique of the Educational system, rather I
feel glad that my Indian college education was easy enough to let me pursue
avenues which benefited me more than what was taught in classroom. A degree
from a reputed Indian college is only to open doors, what you learn depends
entirely on how motivated you are.

------
test001only
The problem pointed out in the article is a commonly accepted truth in India.
Some hard truth - even though there have been many efforts to bring the
economically and socially under developed class into the mainstream, it has
not happened yet. Most of the students who even come to UG especially
college's like St. Stephens are from middle class or upper middle class
families. They have very little incentive to fight the system. The brand comes
with privilege which is the only thing they are after. In short, people do not
fight the system but have learned to make it work for them. The poor and
downtrodden are the unfortunate majority who are not able to do it.

~~~
crimsonzagar
Agreed! Emphasis is not given to 'economic' or 'social' need but only to
caste-wise situation. If your papa's uncle is on the driving seat of the
Government, you're in the game.

In many ways we Indians deserve the shit we live in. How many of us actively
participate in politics? No one comes forward even if there is incentive to do
so. In fact many armchair experts criticize Anna Hazare or Arvind Kejriwal who
at least go ahead an walk the talk, trying to garner some support for better
Governance. Support them? Nope. Zilch.

We love to be in Americas than to make India better - a short-cut. Consider
this: Many of us know who the president of United States is, his wife's name,
his daughters name, and yet more than 90% Indian kids of our age (i.e. below
25 yrs, and it is not a researched number) would not know the name of the
Indian president, or his wife or even consider the fact that he could have
children. :)

[Edited a couple of times.]

~~~
test001only
I am not sure in which part you disagree with me. Yes most of the present
youth in India - who are in a position to make an impact, are not doing it. A
very simple case - they would rather pay the bribe to get LPG connection
rather than fight. But the poor, they cannot do that and they are not in a
position to make an impact and are trapped. This is a vicious circle. The
effect of reservation based on caste is debatable but that would be a topic of
its own.

~~~
anoncow
I did the no bribe thing once. I wanted a certificate and the officer wouldn't
give me one. Went to the bmc office almost every week for 3 months. Gandhiji
would have got me the certificate on the very first day.

~~~
skytalon
It is interesting to notice that Gandhiji is on every currency note. No one
else is good enough to be on it?

~~~
anoncow
I hope they stick to Gandhiji.

------
RestlessMind
One of the biggest disadvantages plaguing Indian education system is quota /
reservations - 50% of the seats are reserved. So which means half of your
peers are there just because of their caste / gender.

Even worse, quota exists for teaching positions too. So half of your teachers
are in that position only because of their caste / gender and not because of
mastery over the stuff they are teaching.

------
vowelless
How was education in the USSR? I was under the impression that the Indian
system borrowed quite a bit from their model.

------
bjoe_lewis
>To pause for a moment, here is the problem with me talking about this topic:
right now many Indians reading this are starting to feel defensive.

No, we are not. We both know it is broken. You definitely should've taken a
glimpse into Engineering Education and you would have died, except if it's not
the IITs.

------
guylhem
The article is partial to a very western view of education.

Lecturing from a book, or from notes, is sometimes the right thing to do,
especially when teaching to students who will have trouble following the class
otherwise (by lack of discipline, by just being unused to that way of teaching
or simply if they can't afford the references book you are asking them to
read, or don't have the time to do that).

The most important is what the student get from the class, not how elite or
interactive the teacher is.

If most students understand better after rote learning some dictated notes -
why not do that?

After all, it is a good way to ensure the majority of students will have a
proper base material to learn from, without too many mistakes thrown in,
especially if they can't offer books. If they can "do better", don't worry,
top students will use their notes as what they truly are - base material, a
list of keywords to build their knowledge from, with the help of google or
books.

 _professor told us the entire Mahabharata epic from memory ... this professor
exemplified passionate teaching._

See, memory can be helpful.

One needs both memory and understanding. The US system seems to overemphasize
understanding. Other systems may overemphasize understanding.

I would not call either system "balanced".

 _real education being one that challenges the intellect and questions
paradigms, not one of rote memorization and conformity_

That's biased. How can you challenge the intellect and question paradigms if
you don't know them in the first place?

There is a time for everything. Maybe a 3rd year college is not the best
moment to question paradigms.

~~~
vivin
> Lecturing from a book, or from notes, is sometimes the right thing to do,

I don't see how this can ever be useful. I grew up in the Middle East and
attended an Indian School which followed the CBSE syllabus. There was nothing
in the syllabus per se that inspired me to ask why. That came from my innate
interest and from the occasional teacher who went beyond what was taught.

The focus was on rote memorization. You could be assured of excellent marks if
you simply regurgitated what was in the text book. So if you were a moron, but
had great memory, you could get 90%+ on an exam, but did you actually _know_
anything?

In high school, I loved math but I never did well in the exams because I
didn't really understand what I was applying and why. My high school teachers
told me that I would do better in a western system of education that focused
more on application than rote memorization. This was borne true a few years
later when I started my undegrad in the US and aced my math classes. Although
to be fair, my previous exposure to higher math definitely helped. But what I
gained most from my education in the US was that I knew _why_ I was doing
_what_ I was doing.

> The US system seems to overemphasize understanding.

I fail to see how anyone can overemphasize understanding. Understanding is the
point of learning something. I still remember one of my friends _memorizing_
Physics derivations. I once tried to ask her to explain one particular step
and she had no clue why it was being done. She had simply memorized it. I
sucked at that; I cannot memorize anything if I do not _understand_ it

> That's biased. How can you challenge the intellect and question paradigms if
> you don't know them in the first place?

He's talking about the paradigm of rote memorization and conformity. In school
I was frequently docked points if I restated my answer in any form that was
different from the text book. It didn't matter that what I was saying was
essentially the same. I didn't use the language of the book and so it was
"wrong". How does that teach anyone anything? I still remember being terribly
frustrated because I _knew_ that my answer was right but yet I was being
penalized because I hadn't regurgitated what was in the book.

Rote memorization may be helpful, but it cannot be the central underpinning of
any kind of educational system. The idea of education is to _understand_ what
is being taught and _apply_ it. Not just to memorize and regurgitate it
without any regard for the meaning. Otherwise you're not better than a parrot
that repeats phrases without any idea of the meaning or context.

~~~
auctiontheory
Double upvote.

I suspect that someone raised in a Western educational system simply _cannot
comprehend_ what a typical rote-memorization-driven Indian school education
looks and feels like. Because it's insanity.

I worry that the US is moving in the same direction, with all the focus on
testing-driven "standards." (Not to mention the use of calculators in math
class.)

------
known
Indian education system is designed to create employees, not employers.
Trade/commerce is exclusively reserved to
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bania_%28caste%29> for over 3000 years in India.

