
The Role of Deliberate Practice in the Acquisition of Expert Performance - luu
https://acesounderglass.com/2019/06/21/epistemic-spot-check-the-role-of-deliberate-practice-in-the-acquisition-of-expert-performance/
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seieste
David Epstein's book "Range" offers a different view of expert performance --
that it doesn't work very well in domains with ambiguity (such as a hidden
state), or when a variety of skills are required.

In other words, expert performance applies to piano and chess very well, but a
diversity of backgrounds is more important for things like management or R&D
more broadly.

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hyperpallium
It seems to me possible to improve at the skill of discovery - but I'm not
sure how, and perseverance, creativity and luck swamp everything else. Those
aren't skills.

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newvoiceoldphne
Ah, but "chance favors the prepared mind", so it IS possible to improve your
luck.

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hyperpallium
But is it a "skill"?

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lstodd
It is better called "ability". And "luck" is better called "recognizing an
opportunity".

If you're unable to utilize an opportunity, which takes skill, or are unable
to recognize an opportunity, which also takes skill, you're out of luck.

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jimhefferon
Ericsson's popular-market book _Peak_ has much more than the paper (there are
many citations in the back).

I remember in particular a duscussion about music students practicing for an
optimum, or maybe maximum, number of hours per day. I'm in math and there are
a number of people in math who also say four is the limit; a quick google
found this for example [https://theweek.com/articles/696644/why-should-
work-4-hours-...](https://theweek.com/articles/696644/why-should-work-4-hours-
day-according-science). FWIW.

Also well-konwn are the first two paragraphs of Littlewood's Miscellany,
[https://www.gwern.net/docs/math/1986-littlewood-
littlewoodsm...](https://www.gwern.net/docs/math/1986-littlewood-
littlewoodsmiscellany.pdf), p 189.

~~~
DenisM
FWIW one might be able to find their own optimum by carefully listening to
their body. In college when I overdid math I had a very distinctive buzz in my
head (like the brain "shorting out"), that signified I am done for the day.

Remarkably, the same material that stupefied me just prior to "shorting out"
would become crystal clear the next morning. I think the brain needs to be
pushed up to a certain limit before it considers the material important enough
to be worth of serious "structural changes". The pay-off is non-linear.

The difficult part is that you might be tempted to quit because you're
"tired", even before you actually hit the wall, but then blowing past the
limit in a fit of zealotry just destroys motivation without any extra benefit.
The balance is hard to find. The best I came up with is try to observe my
performance diminishing and use that as an "objective" signal. Easier in some
areas than others.

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wainstead
> Remarkably, the same material that stupefied me just prior to "shorting out"
> would become crystal clear the next morning.

Very much in line with what one reads in Barbara Oakley's "A Mind for
Numbers," and her free Coursera course based on the book (both recommended).

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tlb
All the studies focus on single-task performance. Indeed, typing random
characters for several hours a day would lose my attention.

I don’t know of a study that estimates the maximum number of productive hours
over a varied workload such as running a startup. There clearly is a limit,
but it’s high — maybe 90 hrs/wk for motivated people.

In practice, it’s the neglecting of other things like relationships and
exercise that kicks in before mental energy limits.

~~~
EastLondonCoder
I do know people that can work extremely long hours and still be productive
but they are quite rare. For a large majority of people a ninety hour work
week, would be extremely counter productive at best but most likely dangerous
for your mental health.

[https://www.popsci.com/work-week-hours-
productivity/](https://www.popsci.com/work-week-hours-productivity/)

~~~
agumonkey
I'm curious about the nature of the 90hours per week too.

Is it ~slow paced work, no rushing but constantly walking ideas and attempts ?

Can they endure 90 hours of hard dead ends / frustration / disappointment ? Or
is it 90hours of tangible progress (lets include small dead ends that provide
nice references for more ideas) and pleasure ?

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unreal37
Newport's book puts the distinction between deep work and shallow work.

Calling up restaurants and trying to get them to switch to your booking
software is shallow work. Needing to sit down and program the complete back
end of that booking software including testing by Friday is deep work.

You can only do so much deep work before your reserves of energy are depleted.

~~~
sonabinu
One of the challenges of deep work is getting in the zone. Does the book go
over that?

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wainstead
If by "zone" you mean "flow," then yes; here's a relevant quote from Deep
Work:

> The connection between deep work and flow should be clear: Deep work is an
> activity well suited to generate a flow state (the phrases used by
> Csikszentmihalyi to describe what generates flow include notions of
> stretching your mind to its limits, concentrating, and losing yourself in an
> activity—all of which also describe deep work). And as we just learned, flow
> generates happiness. Combining these two ideas we get a powerful argument
> from psychology in favor of depth. Decades of research stemming from
> Csikszentmihalyi’s original ESM experiments validate that the act of going
> deep orders the consciousness in a way that makes life worthwhile."

Newport, Cal. Deep Work: Rules for Focused Success in a Distracted World (p.
85). Grand Central Publishing. Kindle Edition.

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afarrell
One thing I commonly hear in response to a question of the form “How can I
effectively learn X?” Is “through experience” or “you just have to do it”. One
frustrating thing about that response is that it takes skill to know what to
focus on while practicing. In some domains like sports, people recognize that
coaches are useful for learning what to focus on as you practice. It would be
great if there were coaches for skills such as a software engineer’s
prioritization, planning, and estimation of day-to-day tasks.

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pram
I wonder if theres a difference between straight 'studying' and practice that
involves mechanical movement. What I mean is reading a book on a subject vs.
doing gesture drawing or piano playing etc.

I can definitely believe theres rapid diminishing returns after an hour when
practicing things that require physical activity.

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ohduran
In any case, I still believe that Cal Newport's Deep Work is a good reading
for someone who wants practical advice on Ericsson, Krampe, and Tesch-Römer’s
1993 paper. I wrote a review in detail of Deep Work that you can see here:
[https://alvaroduran.me/deep-work](https://alvaroduran.me/deep-work)

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wallflower
There is deliberate practice and there are geniuses who also do deliberate
practice...

If you have not yet seen the extremely talented composer and piano player
Emily Bear perform the “Bumble Bear Boogie”, you are in for a treat.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru9Ep62RRBk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru9Ep62RRBk)

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agumonkey
I'd love to find meta analyses of problem solving skills learning.

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chris11
I'm thinking a review of spaced repitition software, like Anki, logs would
give more information on efficient learning.You could map hours spent and
schedules to outcomes.

