

19 year old from Florida commits suicide on Justin.tv - jasonbentley
http://newteevee.com/2008/11/20/19-year-old-commits-suicide-on-justintv/
Dude, a kid just offed himself on your service, and BOILERPLATE is the best you can do?
======
jasonbentley
A kid broadcasts his death on your service, allegedly egged on by your
community, and your CEO statement falls back on cut-and-paste boilerplate?

Do better. Fast.

~~~
patio11
>> your CEO statement falls back on cut-and-paste boilerplate? >>

You HAVE to fall on boilerplate or you will be crucified, by your lawyer if no
one else. You just have to pick the right boilerplate:

If what you say has happened, that is a terrible tragedy. We will be
conducting an internal investigation of the matter. Justin.tv in no way
condones comments of the nature you have described. If we find that someone
has breached our acceptable comment policies, we will deal with it as harshly
as allowed to by law.

~~~
jasonbentley
It's entirely possible, and should be second nature for any CEO, to draft a
statement that's both legally prudent AND shows a modicum of empathy. What
they _shouldn't_ do is try to throw their own role into question until the
facts are on the table.

Try this:

"Everyone at Justin.tv is deeply shocked and saddened by this news. In the
upcoming days, we will conduct a thorough investigation of the events
surrounding this incident, and will cooperate fully with local police and
federal authorities. Once all the facts have been gathered and analyzed, we
will release an additional statement. Until that time, we will refrain from
further comment, except to say that our thoughts and prayers are with Mr.
Biggs's family and friends as they come to grips with a sudden, tragic loss."

~~~
gills
I respect what you're trying to say here, but seriously: stop.

It's easy to be a critical asshat on the internet. How much different is your
criticism from that of the forum members involved in this incident?

You can tell these guys all about how to respond when it's your business on
the stump. Maybe they can't show empathy because it weakens their legal
position. I just don't know.

It's natural to mourn, to be empathetic, and for some people it's natural to
be assholes. Let's try to keep cool heads in this community and show support
for both the family of Abraham K. Biggs, and for the startup involved. They
will learn something from this. I hope we all do.

------
dill_day
<http://blog.justin.tv/2008/11/moment-of-silence.html>

_Justin.tv staff would like to take a moment to recognize and reflect upon the
tragedy that occurred within our community today. We respect the privacy of
the broadcaster and his family during this challenging time.

Michael Seibel CEO, Justin.tv_

------
joja
Protip: This is not Justin.TV's fault.

This is no ones fault but the adult's (he was over 18). It really is that
simple - though you wouldn't know it from the media.

America: where self-entitlement lives on and accountability goes to die.

~~~
fuzzmeister
That is true, but regardless, egging someone on who appears to be on the edge
of suicide is simply inhuman.

~~~
Prrometheus
Stuff like this is bound to happen on a live broadcast site. There's six
billion people out there. Every conceivable behavior will be broadcast.

------
dangrover
A similar thing happened on a site that I co-founded:
[http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-01-rampage-
messa...](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-01-rampage-
messages_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA)

It was pretty horrific. We spent about a week being interviewed by the media
and trying to limit the damage both to the site and to the perception of AS.

~~~
fallentimes
Just curious - did you contemplate not even responding to the media? Or were
you pretty much forced to? What sort of long-term impact did it have on your
site?

~~~
dangrover
The problem was that the Will Freund incident, and the exposure it received,
threatened to cast all people with Aspergers as deranged homicidal maniacs.

A few media outlets were sensitive towards the issues involved and wrote
thoughtfully. Others, however, were sensationalist and did the opposite of
what we hoped (e.g. Geraldo's show on FOX).

~~~
mattmaroon
You know that actually is pretty sad. I've heard a lot of rumors about
Aspergers and violence being linked, but a cursory internet search seems to
show that there's little or no evidence.

As if sufferers didn't have enough problems to deal with.

~~~
electromagnetic
From what I've seen, any link between Aspergers and violence is largely
irrelevant. When people who are already socially isolated are mocked and
ridiculed by 'normal' people throughout their lives, then it isn't a case of
Aspergers being linked to violence it's a case of victims getting revenge and
if human history tells us anything it's that victims often go for revenge.

If I was repeatedly mocked and ridiculed, it would only be a matter of time
before I went on a killing spree.

~~~
mattmaroon
Well, a lot of people are mocked and ridiculed all their lives and don't go on
a killing spree, but I get your point.

------
uuilly
I'm sorry to the family and friends of the kid, suicide is the only kind of
death that never makes sense no matter how much time passes...

As for justin.tv this could cut both ways. The family could sue, their traffic
could go nuclear or both could happen. I don't think justin.tv did anything
wrong but if you can sue McDonalds for making coffee too hot you definitely
have a shot at this. This could also make national news and justin.tv will
attract millions of viewers. I think that they need to be really careful to
play down any real or perceived financial benefit that comes from this. They
got a lot of attention when the cops banged down his door and this will be a
much bigger deal. Being "the place to go" for shocking live videos is a double
edged sword. Maybe they should donate to charity in the kid's name?

While a confused teenager's suicide is a tragedy, j.tv is also a victim here.
The kid unwittingly put a bunch of other young guys he's never met who are
just trying to make a startup in the middle of what may become a major witch
hunt.

Good luck with this...

------
tsally
This is one of those critical moments that may well define how people think
about this company in the future. As mentioned before, the CEO needs to do
better, right away.

Just to clarify, I am referring to the response, not to the actual event.

~~~
dbrush
This also might be a critical moment when people have to decide what rights
and responsibilities a site has to the content it distributes, whether that be
HD-DVD keys or a video stream of one's suicide.

~~~
marvin
I'd never bet my company on a political shift happening exactly when I need it
to.

------
palish
Wow, check this out: [http://dl-
client.getdropbox.com/u/315/random_pics/bad_move_m...](http://dl-
client.getdropbox.com/u/315/random_pics/bad_move_moderator.jpg) ... The image
shows two messages on the bodybuilder.com forums.

"A poster has said he was going to OD on JTV in the link here:
<http://www.justin.tv/feels_like_ecstacy>. It seems like he is not breathing
by the looks of the stream. Please track his IP and alert someone."

And in response, a bodybuilder.com forum moderator said:

"he's an attention whore, you should see all the threads he starts, then
deletes"

This might've all turned out differently had the moderators acted on the
information available. I'm not saying that it should be illegal for the
moderators to not care, just that I personally would have at least _looked_ at
the information the poster provided before dismissing it as "just another
attempt at attention whoring".

If you wanted to get to know the kid a little bit, or if you wanted to know
the mentality of someone on the brink of suicide, here's a link to Bigg's
blog:
[http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll...](http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=206599326)

------
pavelludiq
Life's hard. I don't know if that many of us here on HN have had suicidal
thoughts, but i have. I wasn't serious though, i was more like an attention
whore. There is this thing that keeps us going, and that thing is very deeep,
and is older that our species, and when that thing conflicts with our modern
brain, we get confused. What is the meaning of life? Why should i go on? The
answer to these questions can't be "our instincts tell us to", it doesn't make
sense, but it does, actually life is worth just for the living, and we should
just go on, because our instincts tell us, they know better, they had
billions(not millions) of years to evolve and refine them selfs, our minds
have been around for only a few million years, which one should you trust? I
have more to live for than what my instincts tell me, but many don't, and they
have the power to ignore them, and we have no right to judge them, they
overcame the most important of all our instincts with their minds, that takes
will, even if its a stupid decision, its a valid one(not always of course).

------
DaniFong
I'm holding back tears.

We must find a way to make the internet a nicer place. Such astonishing
cruelty breeds here. Why?

~~~
tlrobinson
I think for a lot of people there's a huge disconnect between internet and
reality. On the internet it's often just words on a page, with no association
to real people.

Also, there's so much shocking material and people joking around on the
Internet sometimes it's hard to realize what's "real" and what's not. People
like guy who pranked Zed Shaw a couple weeks ago certainly don't help:
<http://zedshaw.com/blog/2008-10-30.html>

~~~
sofal
Having a vile, boisterous, abusive, and slanderous alter ego for your blog
personality probably doesn't help too much either.

~~~
jrockway
Yeah, let's all be really nice and talk about how much we like flowers.

Seriously though, Zed's personality may suck, but it makes for great reading.
As a blog reader, that's all I really care about.

------
jedc
This is horrible.

Hopefully it gives the Justin.tv community a reality check. They were egging
him on?!? As someone who volunteers on a suicide helpline, I'm amazed that
people won't condemn that kind of behavior _before_ it causes real harm.

~~~
goldsmith
I understand your sentiment, but if you think that this wouldn't occur in many
communities that have a large base of users, you are off base. I don't just
mean places like 4chan- have you ever read comments on Youtube videos?

~~~
Hexstream
To be frank I often surprise myself with the tastelessness of my own comments
on Youtube, when I bother to make one there.

------
boredguy8
This has happened before and will happen again. The first internet-based
'televised' event I know of is the 'ripper' event on IRC channel #shroomery.
Logs are stilla vailable online, one instance at
<http://b00mb0x.org/blog/pic/chattrans.html>

------
fallentimes
God the media is going to try to blame Justin.tv for this. While the CEO's
statement was bad, he was probably caught off guard and didn't know what to
say. At least I hope that's what happened.

~~~
mrtron
The only thing worse than media bandwagoning issues is people attempting to
predict how that process.

~~~
fallentimes
I'm just going off what happened last time and the time before that. Why's
predicting the media so bad again?

------
maurycy
It is a tragedy and I feel sorry for him. This is, I think, the only
appropriate comment.

~~~
swombat
There are many other appropriate comments. Perhaps it's the only appropriate
comment you can think of.

------
jonknee
Reason number 245 why Justin.tv won't be able to sell advertising.

~~~
debt
Honestly. Justin.tv is not doing well. The service is shoddy, every channel is
riddled with pedophiles and now this.

~~~
axod
"every channel is riddled with pedophiles"

Seriously? Do you have proof of this?

~~~
jrockway
I think the statement is probably technically true. Some percentage of the
population is a pedophile, some percentage of the population uses justin.tv.
It is likely that there is an overlap.

I'm sure Slashdot, news.yc, and Reddit are all "riddled with pedophiles" also.
Who cares?

~~~
jonknee
Slashdot, news.yc, and Reddit don't involve kids broadcasting video out of the
bedroom.

------
adammichaelc
My heart and my prayers go out to this guy's family and to all families who
have similarly suffered.

------
rms
Sad story. I'm sure they'll get a new statement out.

Also see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Vedas>

------
swombat
Idiots: also available on justin.tv.

------
anonhuman
Sad for his family and friends. Nothing to add about the legal/corporate
aspects, as you have already addressed those. Human tragedy. Here's a helpful
resource for the prevention of teen suicide you can share if you wish...

<http://www.SpeakUpSaveLives.org>

------
yters
You know, people would do this less often if they generated less public
attention. Ultimately, it's up to the person to save themselves, and if they
choose not to, that's their choice.

Plus, we should start calling suicide for what it is: cowardice and
selfishness, instead of fawning over the poor souls who didn't receive enough
love and attention.

------
mikkom
> The contention that filming and uploading (and even hosting video of) a
> crime is a crime as well might not be valid, but given the very nature of
> live broadcasts, the issue becomes more complicated.

Is suicide a crime?

~~~
run4yourlives
No. But in the US you can be held civilly liable for all sorts of things,
crime or not.

I think that's what justin.tv is more concerned with.

------
goodgoblin
Please remove this.

------
caveman82
Which begs the question of justin.tv's whole raison d'etre:

How the f--- does facilitating self-perpetuated voyeurism (to this particular
degree) add value to society?

------
jnil
This is sad, really sad.

------
auston
Crazy stuff. Poor kid. Just show's you can't take what you're told online
seriously.

------
yters
www.nonhackernews.com

------
Allocator2008
Reminds me of that James Woods film, "Videodrome", an existential musing on
reality, specifically, television being more "real" than real life. While
dated, one could update the "Videodrome" movie concept for the internet age.
Obviously, Justin.tv did nothing wrong, in terms of the fact one cannot edit
live video. It does bring up questions about the need for sensationalism, that
somehow there is a collective need for it, almost like an archtype.

------
zack
Question: how do I downvote people.

~~~
palish
You need a certain (small) amount of karma before you can downvote people. At
that point, you'll see a downarrow below each comment uparrow.

That was done to prevent people from creating new accounts for the purpose of
repeatedly downvoting someone.

------
goldsmith
he told u he was hardcore

~~~
pchivers
I downvoted this comment, thinking it was just a silly remark, but now I
realize that it's a reference to the Brandon Vedas death:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Vedas>

~~~
run4yourlives
Which doesn't make it any less disrespectful.

~~~
swombat
So what? Disrespect is at the heart of much great humour.

~~~
run4yourlives
Feel free to crack jokes at the next funeral you attend then. I'm sure the
other attendees will be highly amused.

More to the heart of much great humour is timing.

~~~
swombat
Is HackerNews a funeral now?

Or are you suggesting that this thread is that hapless teenager's virtual
burial place?

~~~
run4yourlives
I'm suggesting that joking about a person's death needs to be considered
against the nature of that death and the current environment.

It's very likely that the family of that kid will happen upon this forum and
that post in the next little while, and I think as a community it would be
nice if they weren't met with the same idiotic comments that they'll find on
the bodybuilding site.

It's the same thing as making jokes about 9/11 victims on 9/12, but there's no
hard and fast rule. Such is the case with pretty much every social nicety.

------
tdavis
Pills? If you're going to live broadcast your own death, make it more
interesting than watching paint dry. Sheesh.

~~~
tdavis
Seriously people? I didn't expect this to be taken well by most here (in fact
it was an experiment to see if there was a limit to down-voting), but some of
you seem to be on a war path now.

It doesn't really matter what the Justin.tv CEO said. He pasted some boiler
plate because there's nothing more to be said; the deed had been done. What do
you want? An apology for not finding the video? For not policing the Internet?
Prosecution of anybody "egging him on?" Come on.

Someone broadcast their suicide. That fact doesn't make it any more tragic
than any other suicide. It also doesn't mean anybody more than usual was
responsible. There's really no story here which is why I chose to make a
comment that didn't acknowledge there was.

You may return to being irrationally sanctimonious now.

~~~
SamReidHughes
This reminds me of something that happened to me after 9/11. In my teenage
immaturity, I made a comment insinuating that America got what was coming to
it. I'm not sure why I did that (the mind is good at rationalizing behavior
after the fact, so I can't trust my own memories on the matter), but I think
it was a reaction to the complete unanimous sorrow going on in the forum.
Everybody thought that the attacks were a horrible thing, that the deaths were
such a tragedy. It _might_ have been that I was struck by the complete
irrationality of their reactions -- people don't feel so angered about annual
traffic accident fatality numbers. After their angered reactions, I apologized
and gave an excuse somewhat like the parent comment.

Having been in this situation, I'd say that tdavis probably posted that under
the same state of mind as I did. And now that I look back, I can't help but
conclude that taking that state of mind is the right thing to do. After events
like these, certain ideas become treated like "correct viewpoints" that good-
thinking people have to have. Such as that America is the good guys, or that
this event here was so tragic and that you should be mournful. And now that
somebody has come along with a different attitude on the matter, we get to
witness a hailstorm of people who don't simply disagree on the matter, but who
hate him because his reactions are different to theirs.

~~~
statictype
And is it similarly irrational to mourn your Father's death more than the
death of some random guy in a hospital you never knew?

~~~
SamReidHughes
My comment was not about the question of which views are correct or rational
or make sense.

