
Transgender children and gender dysphoria - nsgi
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/12/transgender-children-have-to-respect-who-he-is
======
Uhhrrr
The worrisome thing here is that batman outfits and swords are used as proof
of the "boy" identity and pink princess stuff as proof of the "girl" identity.
This is complete crap - gender roles are not dictated by which aisle of Toys
'R' Us you favor.

I am willing to grant that the children profiled in the article aren't just in
it for the toys, but the author is encouraging this perception, and I have
seen more than a couple Bay Area parents buying into this, and rushing to call
their kid gender-fluid as soon as they put on a dress.

~~~
empressplay
And you're right; these are totally two separate things (cross-dressing, for
example, is not much of an indicator as to whether someone is transgender or
not.)

Now, that said, kids should be free to wear whatever the hell they want, but
nobody should take what they wear as an indicator as to what gender they would
be more comfortable as.

~~~
danieltillett
>Now, that said, kids should be free to wear whatever the hell they want

I am none too keen seeing young girls wearing heavy make up. Children should
be able to be children and not little adults.

~~~
gizmo686
What is inherently "adult" about makeup?

~~~
danieltillett
I am not talking about children playing with mum’s make up - I am talking
about young girls being peer pressured into wearing heavy make up at an age
they don’t need it. It is an arms race that no young kids need.

On this topic I really hope men can continue to resist the cosmetics industry.
I have zero desire to see it become the expected social norm like it has for
women.

------
gnah
If I had grown up in a culture this accepting of transgender people I would
have transitioned. That would have been the worst decision of my life. I've
grown into my identity as a man since then and I'm thankful for my parents and
society pushing me in the right direction. We need to be careful to avoid
putting borderline cases like me into a group with such high rates of suicide
and depression.

~~~
gbanfalvi
You would have only transitioned after lots (maybe years) of sessions with
doctors and therapists where they would have made sure that it's really what
you need.

As the article mentions, the biggest change right now is delaying puberty for
some kids so that if they _are_ trans, they get the chance to transition more
easily later in life.

Regardless, I'm glad that you're happy with your body.

~~~
dogma1138
Delaying puberty and sexual maturation is quite odd in this case.

It's a bit hard to know what gender you identify as when you aren't even
remotely sexually mature hormonal and neurological changes during puberty
might be a very important factor. And while yes sex isn't equal gender in this
case but it still means allot. If you pump a man full of estrogen and make him
feel like a woman you'll might be able to push him hard enough to identify as
one.

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imh
Reading this article made me realize I have no idea what "gender" is. It used
to be synonymous with what parts and chromosomes you have, where there are no
questions of "I identify as XYZ," but now what the hell is it really?

All the fluidity and tension created by gender makes me think why don't we
just get rid of it? Stop making children conform to social
norms/behavior/dressing/everything based on their sex. Drop all social
expectations of gender and let people do whatever they naturally want to do.
But then we're just left with sex, which is basically where we started. So
what the hell is gender?

~~~
dragonwriter
Sex/gender together cover, as I see it, three main areas; all of which are
complicated, but misery of which haven't been recognized as such (or even
recognized at all) until fairly recently.

The first is biological (usually called "sex"), chromosomes and various
traits. This is often percieved as being strictly binary, but it's not: the
genetic traits and other features typical of one sex or the other don't always
spread together, and often the most superficially obvious ones don't match the
ones that have broader impact. So that's complicated in ways that are often
not recognized.

Then there is socially ascribed roles (this is ones of the things usually
labeled "gender"); these are the expectations put on someone by society
related to masculinity or femininity.

The there is one's own perception of one's own masculinity or femininity (this
is sometimes also referred to as "gender", but often, and more clearly,
"gender identity").

This is complicated, because it shaped by lots of things, including social
gender stereotypes, and whether they align our conflict with ones current
socially ascribed gender.

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jonesb6
I think the fact that our society is being more thoughtful towards gender
identity is a good thing. But is it possible in our attempt to be thoughtful
we sometimes will over analyze individual situations and change our
environments, interactions, and treatment, towards those we are trying to help
in such a way that it is actually detrimental to them?

In the case of allowing children to choose their identity in the way this
article describes, is it possible that a parent might misunderstand their
child and enable a short-term change that could be detrimental to a child's
development (socially, academically, etc)?

I feel like gender identity is a hot issue right now, and people in general
get caught up in the rhetoric and forget about the actual people.

~~~
chimeracoder
> a short-term change that could be detrimental to a child's development
> (socially, academically, etc)?

Why should letting a child explore their gender identity be any more
detrimental to their development than letting them explore their sexuality?

It'd be far worse to tell them to repress it and not let them come to
understand themselves.

~~~
j4kp07
Note that the OP said "COULD be detrimental" while you shoot from the hip with
a definitive "It WOULD be far worse [otherwise]".

"Why should letting a child explore their gender identity be any more
detrimental to their development than letting them explore their sexuality?"

Because some kids, sometimes, make stupid decisions. Also, what 3-year-old
(from the original article) needs to "explore their sexuality"?

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retrogradeorbit
Worth watching on this topic is a recent Louis Theroux piece on this (if you
can source it). [1]

When I watched this I couldn't help but wonder if some of these kids are
actually intersex, have Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, Androgen Insensitivity
Syndrome or something similar [2]. There was no mention in the documentary
about any chromosomal testing being done by these doctors. The testing seems
to be behavioural. I wonder what the overlap is between trans kids and Sex
Chromosome Abnormalities?

[1]
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05qkzt2](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05qkzt2)

[2]
[http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html](http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html)

------
SN76477
I feel like we are confusing children with people that have actual gender
identity issues.

My 5 year old can decide what her favorite color is, much less what gender she
wants to be the rest of her life.

~~~
peteretep

        > My 5 year old can decide what her favorite color is,
        > much less what gender she wants to be the rest of her
        > life.
    

I think you may be confusing gender dysphoria with people waking up one day
and thinking "Heck, it'd be kinda cool to be another gender!", rather than a
pervasive and persistent deeply held belief that their body is wrong.

~~~
meowface
>rather than a pervasive and persistent deeply held belief that their body is
wrong.

There have been cases of children and young teenagers who have such beliefs,
and then change their minds when they're adults. This may not be the norm, but
I think it's important that children and teenagers don't undergo irreversible
transition treatment. Thankfully, I believe there are many reversible
treatments, like puberty blockers.

------
orthoganol
The elephant in the room for me during conversations like this is theory of
gender. It doesn't seem like we have one. I sideline myself, or at least error
on the side of compassion, because it feels like we just don't know how to
think about gender, either in a scientific way, or if significant features of
it are non-scientific, how to approach it then at all.

I think more attention to it as a subject of serious research could help us
all a lot.

------
dang
Some users flagged this submission, but the article is substantive, so we're
going to try turning flags off.

Since the topic is controversial, please keep this thread a thoughtful one.

Edit: thank you all for keeping this thread a thoughtful one.

~~~
lmm
Substantive? Maybe. On-topic for HN? No.

(I trust the rule that we're supposed to flag and move on rather than
complaining about submissions being off-topic no longer applies since you've
turned off flagging)

~~~
Sharlin
I don't know what your definition for "satisfies intellectual curiosity" is
but this article definitely does it for me. Sexuality and gender issues are
_fascinating_ , as is developmental psychology.

~~~
lmm
I find the subject fascinating (and, FWIW, extremely personally relevant). But
I didn't find this article at all satisfying; too much is anecdote, the
Guardian is too far from neutral (and I say that as a reader and fan of a lot
of their work), and parts of it ring false in terms of my own experience
(contrast e.g. e.g. _Wandering Son_ ( _Hōrō Musuko_ ), which felt very true-
to-life for me - though I guess it's possible things have changed in the years
since I was a schoolchild). To satisfy _intellectual_ curiosity requires a
level of intellectual honesty that I don't think is here.

~~~
dang
This is a perceptive comment that is a fine addition to the thread. You could
make it even better by expanding on what parts of the article ring false in
your experience. But an article having bias or other weaknesses isn't enough
to convict it of offtopicness, the capital offense of articles. Many on-topic
articles have that degree of weakness, especially when the topic is poorly
understood.

Nor would I call anecdote a weakness. Anecdotes are legitimate, fascinating,
and indispensable to good conversation. Half if not more of the best material
on HN is anecdotes. That's how communities function, so it's deeply ok.

~~~
lmm
Then conversely, what is it that makes a political or gossip article off-
topic? Many such articles are just as fascinating, just as curiosity-
satisfying, as this one. (To my mind objectivity and generality is what
separates intellectual curiosity from the regular kind; if not that, then
what?)

------
simplexion
_“I was wearing my Spiderman costume,” Tom, now five, remembers._

I couldn't read past this. No... he doesn't remember that.

~~~
Washuu
I remember being carried as a two year old up and down the long driveway at my
parents' place so they could deposit poopy diapers in the trash bin.(Trash
service was only available for a few years out there.)

We all remember moments from our early lives that seem odd.

~~~
simplexion
No you don't.

