
Did Strava copy its mobile route builder from another app? - docdeek
https://cyclingtips.com/2019/02/did-strava-copy-its-mobile-route-builder-from-another-app/
======
ericrwolfe
Creator of Footpath ([http://footpathapp.com](http://footpathapp.com)) here.

The main point I wanted to reiterate in all of this is not so much that Strava
copied Footpath. The issue as I see it is that Strava is being misleading in
saying they came up with an idea themselves and can innovate quickly, when in
fact the data shows otherwise.

> [Strava] came up with the idea for the mobile version in December, during
> one of the Strava Jam innovation retreats held each quarter. Company
> officials loved the idea and fast-tracked the project; Route Builder For
> Mobile rocketed from concept to public beta test in only two months. \-
> Bicycling.com

> Still, I think this is the best new feature we’ve seen from Strava in years.
> Admittedly, it’s about the only new non-security/rebranding feature we’ve
> seen from Strava in years – so the bar is kinda low. If comments on past
> posts are any indication – people are waiting for not just one new Strava
> feature, but a dozen of these. Hopefully this being merely February, we’ll
> see many more of these types of creative and useful features added to the
> platform over the course of 2019. \- DCRainmaker.com

~~~
ucaetano
This is pretty much standard in the industry, isn't it?

Nobody implements a feature from a competitor and says "hey, we copied this
from X".

Look at Android & iOS, with an eternal back-and-forth copying (notifications
from Android->iOS, permissions from iOS->Android, etc.)

And coming up with the idea doesn't have to mean inventing the idea, it can
simply be "why don't we implement this cool feature that someone else is
using?".

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

~~~
asveikau
We accept too much PR bullshit origin stories. If you find yourself coming up
with a cutesy, exaggerated narrative of how a feature began, don't.

~~~
scarejunba
I cannot find it in me to give a shit about glossy origin stories and I doubt
most devs care.

------
ummonk
_> “It’s very plausible that Strava based their new feature in large part on
Footpath, and in the process may have conducted extensive experimentation with
Footpath,” Merkel told CyclingTips. “However, nothing I’ve seen demonstrates —
and nor does Footpath appear to be claiming — that legally-protected
intellectual property was copied._

This. The implemented UI looks different, aside from the feature of letting
the user trace out a route with their finger. There is nothing wrong with
doing market research on another app and testing out how well their
functionality works before deciding to implement similar functionality
yourself is perfectly fine. If you think your idea is really novel, file a
patent on it.

~~~
xenihn
No one said it's wrong or illegal. If you've ever had something you made be
deemed worthy enough to copy by a large company, then surely you've
experienced the feeling that comes along with that.

You created something that's being used by lots of people, but you'll never
get any credit or attribution for it.

In fact, the credit goes to someone else. It's a shitty feeling. It feels
violating, like someone stole from you.

It seems like the author is just venting. Just some simple acknowledgement is
enough to make most people in cases like this happy. But then that mars the
accomplishments of everyone who was involved with the "inspired" work.

~~~
icebraining
> No one said it's wrong

Actually, they have, unless "cross an ethical line" means something else.

~~~
xenihn
I don't consider 'wrong' and 'unethical' to be synonyms. Feel free to
disagree.

~~~
kstrauser
To help me understand your opinion, could you give me an example of something
that is unethical but not wrong?

~~~
alanbernstein
A lawyer betraying a client is unethical. A lawyer defending a monstrous
serial killer is wrong. (Modulo your definition of "wrong", of course)

Edit: Some serious misunderstanding here.

1) An "alleged serial killer" may very well be known to be an actual serial
killer, by the killer's lawyer.

2) I'm just providing an answer to parent's question to a different commenter.

3) A lawyer betraying a client is unethical, even though it may not be morally
wrong.

This is not a made-up example. See the Robert Garrow case:
[https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/the_buried_bodies_case](https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/the_buried_bodies_case)

"This episode we consider a string of barbaric crimes by a hated man, and the
attorney who, when called to defend him, also wound up defending a core
principle of our legal system. When Frank Armani learned his client’s most
gruesome secrets, he made a morally startling decision that stunned the world
and goes to the heart of what it means to be a defense attorney - how far
should lawyers go to provide the best defense to the worst people?"

This lawyer made the choice to defend a known killer, which was his
professional, _ethical_ obligation, despite being personally, _morally_
opposed to his own actions.

~~~
clairity
michael cohen, is that you?!

but seriously, that’s a stunningly poor choice of examples. why do you want to
distinguish these things in the first place?

------
jrh206
This... doesn't seem that bad?

They checked out the app, took a few screenshots (23, hardly earth-
shattering), and built their own version. The creator of Footpath thinks
Strava's version isn't very good, so they clearly haven't copied the actual
algorithm, just taken inspiration from the idea (which is arguably not that
novel).

~~~
xenihn
As someone who has had a huge company copy something that I made, just some
credit would have been nice. It was part of a job application that I submitted
to them (I didn't get the position). It still bothers me that millions of
people have enjoyed something that I came up with, but I'll never be credited.

On top of that, someone working at the company got credit and praise when it
wasn't even their concept to begin with.

I know that credit/acknowledgement can't be given due to legal issues, but the
average person isn't going to be able to afford to fight legally.

Even if they could afford it, they would have no legal legs to stand on. It
would be pure spite litigation.

~~~
hartator
name shaming

~~~
myWindoonn
Demonstrating poor mind-reading skills, I'm guessing that this is Riot Games
and that the design questions on the interview were related to creating new
in-game content for League of Legends.

~~~
xenihn
Ding ding ding

Questions is an understatement, that shit was a full design doc. Mine was
about 15 pages long.

------
docdeek
The core of the argument FTA:

>>Wolfe did some digging into Footpath’s server logs, to see whether staff at
Strava had been using Footpath. They had.

“I discovered multiple accounts and dozens of routing requests originating
from Strava’s corporate IP address starting in November — literally hours
after the Product Hunt tweet about Footpath,” Wolfe said. “Digging even
further, a good percentage of the requests occurred over a six-hour period on
December 12th and 13th. Strava’s December ‘hackathon’ where they purportedly
conceived the idea? Also right around this time.”

Footpath’s Application Programming Interface (API) logs, seen by CyclingTips,
do indeed show multiple instances of Footpath API access from Strava HQ
between October and December 2018. Four requests were made in the day
following Product Hunt founder Ryan Hoover’s tweet tagging Strava. Several
clusters of requests followed through November before a flurry of activity in
December.

Footpath’s API logs show nearly two and a half hours of activity from a user
at Strava HQ on December 12, including the creation of 23 screenshots between
5:04pm and 7:25pm. The logs also show continued access between 10:45am and
8:40pm the following day. Four further API requests were made from Strava HQ
through January.

~~~
driverdan
> including the creation of 23 screenshots between 5:04pm and 7:25pm

Tracking screenshots is really creepy.

~~~
ericrwolfe
Full disclosure: Footpath does currently collect an analytics event _when_ a
screenshot gesture is invoked (absolutely no screenshot data) to decide
whether to present a share prompt, and it had the unintended side effect of
revealing suspicious account activity. I've already updated the code to remove
the event in the next release.

I'm happy to answer any questions about privacy and the data Footpath
collects: [https://footpathapp.com/privacy](https://footpathapp.com/privacy)

~~~
kylec
Your privacy policy does not mention that you collect and store data on when
users take screenshots

------
Sephr
Snapping a rough/imprecise path onto a road system is not novel. The same type
of algorithms are already used by all major mapping apps during rerouting and
to correct for GPS inaccuracy during route transit.

Sigma also has this feature in one of their GPS units:
[http://disq.us/p/202igai](http://disq.us/p/202igai)

~~~
ovi256
The UX seems novel to me. Unfortunately, as said elsewhere, that's not
protectable by patent or anything else.

~~~
cpburns2009
What exactly about this is novel? Allowing the user to draw a path and
matching it to the nearest path sounds like the most user friendly thing to do
on mobile. If I was developing a similar app, I would have done the same
without knowing about either of these. I've thought before that this would be
a useful feature in Google Maps.

~~~
griffinkelly
I've been using this site for probably 10 years, does something similar:
[https://www.gmap-pedometer.com/](https://www.gmap-pedometer.com/)

------
rdiddly
Surprisingly little sympathy for the "little guy" in the comments so far. No,
the technique is not patented. Yes, copying it or reverse engineering it is
legal. Yet it's still a craven and unfair act. If you can't hold the two
contradictory ideas in your head simultaneously, you're not very smart.
Strava's version is not an act of "innovation" that needs protection from
being "stifled" \- the innovation was someone else's. Big companies can afford
to patent ideas they steal from small ones that can't. It is legal and unfair.

~~~
greglindahl
Craven, unfair, "not very smart". With all of this name-calling, why do you
expect sympathy?

~~~
Fnoord
The only unethical aspect of the whole story is that Strava claimed it is
their innovation. Welcome to the real world, companies do this all the time.
The amount of time I've seen Apple do this (and no, not a hater; we own 4
MBPs).

~~~
greglindahl
It's unethical to throw around accusations without much basis. I read the
article, and Strava's claim could easily be that this is a unique innovation
because it uses heat maps and not just road data to generate the route. I
don't know, and it doesn't sound like anyone else knows enough to start name-
calling.

------
sjroot
It is a shame that Strava couldn't just hire the creator of Footpath. While
the latter's creator correctly acknowledges how common this is in our
industry, it does shine a negative light on Strava.

I think one of the reason "big tech" is so successful in general is that, any
time anyone might have a disruptive idea, they can just put tons of money and
engineers toward replicating it. The IP, profits, and talent remain (and
continue drifting toward) those large companies.

~~~
jf22
How is Strava cast in a bad light?

Every company on the planet keeps tabs on what their competition is doing.

~~~
AnthonBerg
It's been explained and reasoned about quite extensively here.

------
avitzurel
I don't get this post. Honestly.

Companies use this jargon of `breakthrough in the space`, it has been nonsense
since Apple introduced FaceTime as a breakthrough in the space even though you
had video chat for ages before that.

~~~
avitzurel
> “But you cross an ethical line when you copy an idea without any meaningful
> differentiation and attempt to call it your own, let alone attribute the
> source of your inspiration.

This, to me, is complete BS. I mean, yes, it would be nice if PMs would
actually attribute it and then in companies press release it would mention
that but that's just a very naive expectation.

~~~
Veen
Yes, it is naive to expect businesses not to tell lies and to refrain from
representing other people's ideas as their own. But it is also naive to expect
people not to complain about it.

------
fencepost
I could easily see looking at "How have other apps done user interaction type
X" when implementing something - not just to copy, but so you can say "Oh, I
hate how that feels." I suspect there was a lot of use of Google Maps (e.g.
[https://www.maps.ie/map-my-route/](https://www.maps.ie/map-my-route/) and
[https://support.google.com/mymaps/answer/3433053](https://support.google.com/mymaps/answer/3433053))
from Strava's HQ around the same time.

To me this feels like someone considering doing "swipe to take action"
checking out existing apps to see how it's been done elsewhere (e.g. I don't
think that Tinder(?) has grounds to go after PocketCasts or MileIQ because
both offer "swipe-to-act" features in their UIs).

I think the supposed differentiating feature of Strava's new feature is that
they're supposedly integrating the "draw a rough map" feature with their huge
backend database of where people run/bike rather than basing a route just on
street/trail data. A significant test would be if you sketch a path in both
applications that's one street off from a popular running path, do either or
both give a result that puts you where people are already running?

------
zaroth
A provisional patent on the method would have been a really good thing to have
in Footpath’s back pocket right now.

When you’re building functionality that’s whizz-bang cool and brand defining
but that’s totally on display, when it’s one of those things that once you see
it it becomes “obvious” that was the way to do it... a provisional patent
could be the best ~$100 you ever spent.

IANAL, but provisional patents are double-edge swords. You have to file before
an offer to sale or launching the functionality in your app, and you need to
describe in enough detail what it is you are doing and _how_ it is that you do
it. You don’t have to translate this into patent-ese claims at this stage. But
any claim you ultimately make in a full application claiming the priority date
of the provisional must be fully supported by the provisional text, so it’s
good to put everything you’ve thought of to that point in.

The other side the sword is that as soon as you file, a clock starts counting,
you have 1 year from filing to make a full-blown patent application based on
the provisional, or everything in the provisional then becomes theoretically
unpatentable. Since full patent applications are expensive, it’s like a
liability on your balance sheet for the next 12 months, because there will be
pressure to spend the $10k+ to not “lose” the provisional.

One smaller benefit is that the priority date on the provisional is iron-clad
protection against any patent on the same subject matter that is filed _after_
that date.

I would not at all be surprised in a case like this to see Strava try to file
some patents on the (copy-cat) feature they just launched. They might not go
head-on, but try to patent back-end algorithms that they developed
“independently” that probably line up closely with what Footpath already has —
because it’s the natural way to approach the problem.

~~~
shereadsthenews
HN is for software patents now?

~~~
icebraining
Some HN users have always been for software patents. Others are not. Despite
the groupthink tendencies, HN users do disagree about things.

------
markbnj
I feel like this post is a good illustration of a lesson I learned quite
painfully... two or three times before it sank in. When you have a business
and you feel like saying a thing, if you can't think of a strong practical
benefit to be had from saying it then don't. I feel for the OP, but the main
benefit of this post was probably had in the writing of it, at the cost of
drawing attention to a competitor.

------
throwaway66666
When patent trolls sue competitors for copying features we 're unhappy. When
somebody copies "my idea" we 're unhappy.

What is a good solution? Copying but giving attribution?

~~~
greglindahl
How about "don't be that guy who complains that he wasn't given enough credit
for his important inventions"?

Instead, go out and create great things. And then tell the story of how you
triumphed by thinking hard and moving fast.

~~~
RPLong
I see this as win-win for both companies. I never would have heard of Footpath
if not for this news story. A good percentage of readers will now download
Footpath and give it a try. That's an audience they wouldn't have had
otherwise, and the lifetime revenue stream of a lift like that can be in the
thousands to millions of dollars, depending on the size of Footpath's user
base and their ability to monetize the traffic.

Meanwhile, us Strava users get a cool new functionality.

------
markstos
I tried this feature on Strava and it is not usable. You just get one swipe to
create the route. No zooming or panning during route creation.

There's a simple resolution here: Strava should switch to a more usable
interface design. What works better is allowing someone to create a series of
dots which they can drag around to adjust, while allowing zooming and panning
during route creation.

Strava needs to start over on this feature anyway.

~~~
ericrwolfe
Yeah, while Strava copied Footpath's flashy demo, they kind of missed the
point of how people actually plan routes.

Most Footpath users have specific routes in mind and prefer zooming + panning
to draw their route in multiple, shorter segments. Footpath has some editing
tools that improve upon the hold & drag UI you'd normally find on the web.

~~~
frenchman_in_ny
I just downloaded Footpath, since I'm not a fan of Strava's routebuilder.

However, and forgive the ignorant question, how different is Footpath to
EasyRoute (which is free, & supports uploads to Wahoo, Strava [iirc], and
others)?

~~~
ericrwolfe
The end goal of the apps are very similar, though Footpath places a greater
emphasis on the route building + editing UI, as well as what you can do with
map layers.

One aspect of EasyRoute that is pretty awesome is its support for exporting
turn instructions to Wahoo + Garmin GPS devices via FIT files (the developer
works for Wahoo by day), while Footpath only supports exporting the route data
to GPX files right now.

Hope that helps.

~~~
frenchman_in_ny
Yep, thanks for the response!

It was the FIT export that had me download it initially. Not sure it supports
turn-by-turn though; haven't tried recently.

------
bigwheeler
A side effect of coming out with these accusations is that people (like me)
are learning about the existence of Footpath. I've never been into the
competitive side of Strava, but Footpath looks like a useful app.

------
iamleppert
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. You shouldn't be upset at all.
Just think of the poor environment Strava has created that results in them
being completely devoid of original thought?

------
byteCoder
Earlier this week, I tried out Strava's mobile implementation, which did not
work well for me at all.

I'll definitely be sticking to their web version, which they've had for years.

------
akgerber
I've never tried Footpath, but so far I've found the best app for setting up
bike apps on mobile is the German app Komoot.

------
mactyler
"It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the
credit." \- Harry S Truman

------
duado
Why _wouldn’t_ Strava clone Footpath? Does Footpath have a patent?

~~~
markstos
Because if Footpath's UX is like Strava's for this feature, it's barely
usable.

------
jpeg_hero
I do want to give a shout out to Strava. I don't know their economics, but
it's an amazing app, it's completely taken over their niche, and you can tell
they just care.

I honestly don't know how they support an app of such complexity and full
features.

Kudos to them.

~~~
entee
As a very long time Strava user, I think they actually don't deserve any kudos
here. They have the "best" app in the sector, but only because they have
essentially the only sports social network out there. They have done nearly
nothing to improve the app or user experience in years. They know they have
the network effect down, and are heavily resting on their laurels.

One example: if you look at similar, more serious training apps in the sector
(i.e. Training Peaks) the amount of analytics and richness around training
plans is just night and day. Strava has had all the data to present a really
great analytics experience and they don't.

I know I'm arguing for Strava "stealing" more features from competitors, but
in this case it would be how competition should work. Two entities of similar
power push each other to improve features. Instead, Strava relies on its
network effect to essentially be a comfortable monopoly, and Training Peaks
knows that it likely won't be successful at putting together a social network
in a similar way (Garmin, the biggest equipment maker in the space has tried
and has essentially gotten no traction).

It's not the worst thing in the world, these are not real problems. So what, I
pay for 2+ sites when 1 good innovative one would be enough. But for Strava to
pretend it's innovative, when at best it's cribbing from actual innovators
below their size, is pretty rich.

~~~
taude
I haven't used Training Peaks since it was a Flash/Flex app. I imagine for a
vast majority of Strava's user base, they're not into the detailed micro-
management of their workout plans and goals. And they likely aren't athletes
working with coaches, etc.

There's been plenty of new app features and user interface updates over the
years. I think you're conflating your needs of a highly technical training
plan with goals and demographics of the Strava app.

That said, I'm still waiting for Strava, Zwift and Trainer Road to merge into
the mega one-stop-shop. ;)

Edit: Also add RideWithGPS to my uber-list of one company, since I use them to
generate my route maps over Strava's version, because I think it's better,
which actually goes to show that the little guy can still compete. (Probably a
small niche market, though.)

