
Pine64 November Update – ANSI Pinebook Pro and PinePhone Preorder - stamps
https://www.pine64.org/2019/11/05/brave-heart-edition-pinephones/
======
llimllib
> We make no profit from selling these units. If you think that a minor
> dissatisfaction, such as a dead pixel, will prompt you to file a PayPal
> dispute then please do not purchase the Pinebook Pro. Thank you.

This just sounds unsustainable

~~~
repomies691
Well, personally I would prefer them to make profit. I would be willing to pay
a bit more since the product seems quite interesting - not actually in the
current state, but what the product could be if the business actually
flourishes.

Better would be something like "Disclaimer: the product can have up to 10 dead
pixels which are not covered by warranty."

~~~
cartoonworld
I hear what you're saying, but to be clear, Pine Microsystems is not operating
a pizza shop. It is much more like a hackerspace or community workshop then a
merchant. They offer a direct-from-manufacturer business model, where a non-
membership based community of interested stakeholders directly contribute to
most if not all of the products. Check out the engineering blog posts.

If you are looking for a turnkey solution, not all of Pine64's offerings are
able meet your needs (but do snag a $1.99 CH340 Serial console.) and if you
preorder the "Braveheart" phone, there is no stable off the shelf OS prepared
for it. You cannot buy this and mail it to ahead your hotel and give a
demonstration to the board by next Thursday.

That said, and I don't think this is superlative at all, Pine64's efforts
currently exemplify the internet dream of a "Global Village" economy.

------
Abishek_Muthian
Incase you're ordering the PinePhone & looking forward to jump on Linux
development; check out Ubuntu Touch by UBPorts[1].

UBPorts community have done a commendable job in continuing Ubuntu Touch
development after canonical left it. Even Nexus 4 receives regular updates,
albeit old kernel due to libHybris

Ubuntu Touch is the most accessible Linux phone now because of their support
to older available devices. Unfortunately, they don't get enough attention as
Purism or PostmarketOS gets.

Hopefully, PinePhone should change it.

[1]:[https://forums.ubports.com/topic/2403/pinephone](https://forums.ubports.com/topic/2403/pinephone)

~~~
m463
> Unfortunately, they don't get enough attention as Purism or PostmarketOS
> gets.

I didn't know of this project, however my first thought at putting the ideas
"ubuntu" and "phone" together would be: another phone that doesn't respect
you.

This comes from the way ubuntu forces stuff you might not want, like the
amazon app, telemetry and stuff like snap.

I might be thinking unfairly.

(meanwhile purism takes great pain to think of the user compassionately via
GPL)

~~~
type0
Amazon searches were a huge mistake of theirs, but they don't force anything,
you don't have to use snap or submit telemetry. Much bigger problem with
Canonical is they think it's okay to have some tightly integrated bits and
pieces that are proprietary and not to contribute some fixes upstream.

~~~
m463
> you don't have to use snap

I have to disagree. My experience trying to disable or remove snap led me to
believe they designed it to be hard.

------
johnnycarcin
Any real, day-to-day usage feedback on the PineBook Pro? I've looked around on
their forum + reddit, and outside of a couple of reviews (mainly only a day or
so into ownership), I haven't found much. This one seems to be the most in-
depth so far:
[http://students.engr.scu.edu/~sschaeck/misc/pinebookpro.html](http://students.engr.scu.edu/~sschaeck/misc/pinebookpro.html)

~~~
op00to
Yes. I have one. It’s a $199 laptop. It is nowhere near as nice hardware wise
as the Macs I use. It works, but everything’s slow and clunky.

~~~
johnnycarcin
Yeah, I'm not expecting a ton given the price point, I have my "real" machines
for work.I would like an open and functional option for traveling, conferences
etc though. Maybe it is because of delivery timelines or something, but I
don't see many people reviewing these outside of initial unboxing type
details...

~~~
cartoonworld
This is a new product launch, the current users are reporting on the earliest
units. The first normal pre-order batch should be shipping this week, and then
I believe there are 2 more batches to be shipped until after the Chinese new
year. The current preorder is the last for these units for several months.

The Pinebook Pro specs compare to a somewhat powerful 6-core arm SBC: 5V power
input, easy to charge off a solar panel on your boat, IPS LCD panel, MALI gpu,
4gb Ram (SoC is maxed out, this could be upgradable: Original $99 Pinebook
upgrade kits are coming in Q1 2020), 64GB MMC, wifi, no ethernet (use $9
dongle, case too thin), USB-C, a UART accessible from the headphone jack with
a $7 dongle breakout thingy, optional $7 M.2 NVME daughter board. This is a
(almost) fully opensource chromebook with a magnesium shell, and hardware
privacy switches. 2 blobs afiak for Mali GPU and Bluetooth/wifi module.
Hackable. Inexpensive accessories already exist with good availability.
Replacement parts available, BSD according to the wiki.

Personally, I like reasonably powered home computing devices, I just put the
stuff with all the fans in the closet. Maybe doing a huge compilation or git
merge on the Pinebook hardware is gonna be slow. Full video and smartphone
graphics should be fine. Connecting your Pinebook to a Pine64 cluster for big
jobs is something you can do today and sounds like a summer project.

This client hardware seems pretty decent for two large bills. A specced Librem
15 is $2000 and could be eye watering if it falls off your boat again.

------
louib
About the PineTime

> Since this is a community driven side-project, we have started considering
> making the dev-kits available to everyone in the store.

That would be awesome. I've been looking for an open watch to play with
recently. I hope they go forward with that idea.

~~~
xorcist
Battery life seems promising too! (They aim for 10 days.)

This might actually turn out more useful than many of the boutique
smartwatches.

------
MayeulC
I would like to order both a PinePhone and a PineTime (plus a couple more for
friends), but I have no idea if they will be available for order/shipping at
the same time[1].

And ideally, I would like a pineTime as well. I would like to write a program
to alert me when I'm forgetting my phone while travelling, for instance :)

[1] Asked here:
[https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=8158&pid=51528#p...](https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=8158&pid=51528#pid51528)

~~~
justinclift
Yeah. Hoping they do produce more PineTime dev kits, as Go can now be compiled
directly for it (via TinyGo) and a friend has a good project in mind it would
suit.

------
ocdtrekkie
Got my Pinebook Pro preorder in. Will order a PinePhone when it opens as well.
Using both as a way to test the waters of using Linux as my daily "consumer
PC" replacement, since the price makes it fairly painless to do so.

~~~
cartoonworld
Don't forget about the open source community designed PineTime! (est price:
$25)

They are also developing an open source tablet, PineTab. They already have
several full lines of SBC Raspberry Pi killers as well. Several are designated
LTS Long Term Support with guaranteed availability (See offer for details,
restrictions apply, Pine64 can not be held responsible for any sweet hacks or
enjoyable Sundays caused by its devices. Hack Responsibly.)

~~~
hobo_mark
However, from what I can see [1] there is just some prototype hardware and
some datasheets, is there an SDK somewhere? Or at least a toolchain?

[1]
[https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PineTime](https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PineTime)

~~~
bluGill
No, your job is to write the SDK. Eventually someone will write one and then
you can go to the next level.

Note that they have carefully looked for the type of people who will write a
sdk for it, and ensured they have a pinetime. Thus in a few months/years I
expect to see a couple different SDKs come out. Once there is a useful SDK
with a useful app ready for release they will start selling hardware to anyone
with it. Until then they will only make the pinetime hardware available to the
type of person who is likely to take what currently exists and move it up a
level. (note that the first set of hardware has shipped, they might or might
not make a second round for more developers)

------
reaperducer
I'm very interested in these machines. Hopefully someone will post a review of
them on HN once available. I'm especially interested in hearing how the
trackpad is, considering people on HN are always complaining about Linux and
trackpads.

I wish the site had better photographs. The keyboard pictures are awful, and
the Javascript they use to show the pictures prevents me from zooming in to
see any detail.

~~~
mbreese
On the Pinebook Pro, the trackpad and keyboard aren’t great. I’m hesitant to
say horrible, but it is a very cheap machine so you get what you pay for. I
have one of the ISO keyboard “batch 2” machines. I got it last week and the
keyboard issues have made it largely unusable for me.

Ignoring the trackpad, the keyboard will sometimes refuse to register
keypresses or will repeat keys. This is particularly problematic when you type
fast (like a password). On mine, the tab key also gets stuck rather often. The
trackpad doesn’t have much control for fine movements, which makes resizing
windows... interesting. And the trackpad frequently activates spontaneously
which causes cursors to move around.

Aside from a small issue I had with a loose bezel, the rest of the machine is
very nice. It is a good sized (14”), very sturdy design. The screen is pretty
good too. Maybe if the keyboard and trackpad firmware gets fixed, then it
could be a usable machine.

~~~
jammygit
Is the keyboard better than the XP’s 13? I hate typing in that thing. I miss
my 2015 MacBook w Ubuntu, the hardware was so incredible

~~~
arglebargle123
I haven't used the XPS 13 so I can't compare them but while the keyboard the
PBP is cheap it isn't _bad_. The touchpad on the other hand makes me want to
stab someone every time it misses a two finger right click.

I've been eyeing the 2018 Matebook X Pro as a replacement work laptop,
everything I've heard about it has been overwhelmingly positive.

~~~
mbreese
I’m glad your keyboard is working out better for you. Mine is just so
inconsistent, but part of that is the touchpad too. Maybe I would have a
different opinion if I just disabled the touchpad completely (and if my tab-
key would stop sticking).

But I do think it highlights one of the issues you’ll have with any low-cost
machine — quality control. There just isn’t enough of a margin to assure a
standard level of quality. Now, this is admittedly a pre-production batch, so
perhaps some of these issues with quality will be worked out, but given the
cost, I’m not too confident.

------
CDSlice
Does anyone know if the Pinephone will be able to work on Verizon's network? I
am very interested in getting a Pinephone to try out and maybe make some apps
for but I don't want to buy another SIM and plan from somewhere else.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
The chip in the phone is an approved module for Verizon, so theoretically, it
can, and the bands needed are supported. Whether or not your Verizon customer
service rep will activate the phone is an entirely different question that
we'll only find out once we have them in hands and give it a shot.

[https://opendevelopment.verizonwireless.com/design-and-
build...](https://opendevelopment.verizonwireless.com/design-and-
build/approved-modules/module/8959)

~~~
CDSlice
Awesome! I already have an activated Verizon SIM so hopefully it'll just work
with the Pinephone. If not maybe I can just pick up something from Ting.

------
cartoonworld
I have been clamoring for this product for _years_. If this looks good to you,
check out their other offerings. They are extremely compelling. Also, the
$1.99 serial console is very nice.

------
yumraj
Does anyone know who are the people behind Pine64? Where is the company
based/incorporated.

I couldn't find any info on the website.

~~~
dmix
The blog and an interview [1] have been by Lukasz Erecinski. Although
Wikipedia mentions TL Lim:

> Although the original Kickstarter page mentioned a company called "Pine64
> Inc.", all devices are manufactured and sold by Pine Microsystems Inc. based
> in Fremont, California. Its founder is TL Lim, the inventor of the PopBox
> and Popcorn Hour series of media players sold under the Syabas and Cloud
> Media brands.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Microsystems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Microsystems)

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bibXkrT8AqU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bibXkrT8AqU)

------
cf141q5325
Really cant wait to get my hands on a pinephone, it looks absolutely amazing.
Hopefully I will be quick enough to get a BraveHeart model for christmas, I
would rather not test my technical skills with assembling the developer
edition.

Hardware switches for almost everything and open source software :D

~~~
newnewpdro
> Hardware switches for almost everything and open source software :D

I just flipped through the various pinephone PDFs linked from the November
update and saw no evidence of hardware kill switches. Maybe they're buried in
the schematics, but the exploded phone diagram has nothing for them.

Can you link where you saw mention/proof of this?

~~~
cf141q5325
[https://www.pine64.org/2019/09/05/september-update-the-
pinep...](https://www.pine64.org/2019/09/05/september-update-the-pinephone-is-
real-shipping-soon/)

>The detachable back panel – which covers the privacy switches, pogo pins and
the removable battery – is made of a durable soft-touch plastic.

[https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone](https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone)

> Privacy Switches: LTE (include GPS), Wifi/BT, Mic, and Camera

edit: You can see them at the first link (picture "PinePhone mainboard +
daughterboard (prototype) "), its the little switches above the sdcard reader

~~~
newnewpdro
Thanks.

Well, I guess that's better than nothing.

I can't see myself removing the battery cover and flipping dip switches every
time I want to utilize GPS and cellular networks, and again when I'm done,
though.

But it does let them check the "hw kill switches" box...

~~~
cf141q5325
I mean i think its about what you expect of the device. Many users would
likely be unhappy with having the buttons pressable on the outside due do
being prone to an accidental disable-able. Its a fringe feature. Having the
option to reversibly disable these components is exactly what i am looking
for. So while I will be unlikely to use GPS and LTE or the simcard for that
matter, I am not sure about WIFI, cam and microphone yet. Either way, It sure
as hell beats soldering them off. Hopefully the cover is also as easily
removable as promised. But even if not, i would still get one if all
killswitches were 0 Ohm resistors.

I think just posting the link here gave the wrong impression. Its an open
Linux phone with HW-Killswitches. If that sentence on its own doesnt have you
grin like a kid on Christmas, its likely not yet the device for you. But as
was often said when talking about the Pinephone, its a start. At this point
the target demographic is still developers not people who are looking for an
open source replacement of their current smartphone. Its why the batch is
called "brave heart". While there are operating systems booting on it already,
the expectations Pine set when the developers edition came out were rather
low.

~~~
newnewpdro
> Many users would likely be unhappy with having the buttons pressable on the
> outside due do being prone to an accidental disable-able

The Purism Librem 5 addressed this while still having the kill switches easily
accessible externally, with recessed switch bosses appropriate for regular
external use.

On the Pinephone it looks more like an afterthought to try get some feature
parity with the L5.

I'm excited to see more Linux phones on the market with non-android user
space. But it's about 15 years too late for me to jump to buy anything running
Linux without actually wanting to daily drive the end result, like back in the
Zaurus days (I had three different models). I basically don't use a smartphone
because of the current situation, not since my Nokia N9 broke, and that Linux
phone was incredibly disappointing on the hackability and security/privacy
fronts, though I did enjoy using it.

~~~
cf141q5325
The Librem 5 is another price point and I think its trying to achieve another
goal. I dont think they are in any real competition. For the pinephone, if one
of your main goals is the final pricepoint, how much % of your devices cost
(and development time) are you going to invest into a (unfortunately) niche
feature? And are you risking the robustness of your phone for it? I think the
way its done is the cheapest, yet still functional way, which this phone is
all about.

The Pinephone is at its core a proof of concept made cheaply available to jump
start development for open source linux smartphones. Once its shown to be
working we can talk about every day competitors to existing smartphones, but
thats at least a generation away. Librem is trying to achieve this to begin
with by marketing it to privacy and security conscious users. I am really
curious if that will succeed, but i fear people will expect it to match the
comfort of their current smartphones at that price, which is a really
difficult thing to do. Looking at history, it took a while till Linux became a
realistic option as an OS for a home computer for people who dont consider
them self geeks. The pinephone isnt reaching for the moon but makes the first
step.

To the other point, this will be my first smartphone as well and is intended
for daily use, just not with GPS, LTE and SMS.

------
crankylinuxuser
As a dissatisfied customer, I bought a bought a bunch of A64-LTS with Poe,
eMMC and battery holders.

Turns out their eMMCs are defective. Here's what's happening:

The eMMCs ignore the first read instruction, and then work from the second one
on. On Linux boot, initrd makes a read request that never returns, and hangs.

If you boot off of a mSD, it woris well. You can still mount the eMMC, but you
cant boot with them.

I did receiver a report that someone found a bootable (doesn't ignore first
read) eMMC. But that was 1.

(Disclosure, I opened a PayPal dispute and sent back the eMMCs of my own
expense. But the never responded so I got all $293 back. This goes along with
0 communication even when I was trying to do the right thing. I'm also trying
to start a hardware business, and chose this platform because of no embedded
radios, etc, and 1gigE on its own SPI bus.)

Tldr. Defective hardware, don't buy.

~~~
cf498
I didnt find anything about this in the Pine Forum or via google, just this
thread on Armbian

[https://forum.armbian.com/topic/7783-cant-install-
pine-a64-l...](https://forum.armbian.com/topic/7783-cant-install-pine-a64-lts-
to-emmc/)

Do you have any more information or a link where to follow up on this?
Skimming the threads in the forum

[https://forum.pine64.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=67](https://forum.pine64.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=67)

has more then one person saying that they managed to boot from the EMMC.

edit: nevermind found it

[https://www.reddit.com/r/PINE64official/comments/df6yxz/pine...](https://www.reddit.com/r/PINE64official/comments/df6yxz/pine_a64lts_isnt_able_to_boot_from_emmc/)

edit2: Are you sure you didnt run into a problem with Armbian? Did you test it
with any other OS? There seem to be more people who had an issue which sounds
similar, not being able to boot from EMMC but from SDCard with armbian.

[https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1745265](https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1745265)

~~~
crankylinuxuser
Sorry got busy in the interim.

Yes, I tried eMMC boot on every emmc capable OS that the Pine-fork of Etcher
suggested. And I also tried openBSD as well on suggestion from freenode
#pine64 user, to no avail.

I then was able to order a usb3->eMMC adapter, and was able to debug the USB
and determine my assertions were correct: those eMMC chips ignored the first
read operation.

I didn't have a jtag for the allwinner chips, but I also did have a serial
console. I'd like to say I went above and beyond for testing what I'm defining
as defective merchandise.

Now, the A64-LTS, the rtc batery holder, and the POE injecters are pretty darn
good. I was just hoping for better overall performance with using eMMC.

~~~
cf498
Thanks for the detailed reports, thats really a shame.

------
24gttghh
Any idea of the expected price?

~~~
MayeulC
USD $150 [1]

[1]:
[https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone](https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone)

~~~
24gttghh
No shit. Good price. Thanks!

------
philamonster
lol @ q3 cpm & cpm1a screenshot on that Pinebook Pro image...

