
Windows 10 vs. Linux Performance On AMD Threadripper 2990WX - vkazanov
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=2990wx-linux-windows&num=1
======
Jhsto
"Not only Youtubers test on Windows, virtually the whole tech reviewer
community tested on Windows exclusively. And many concluded that Threadripper
problems were due to memory problems, and only few blamed Windows for it."

[https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/latest-
phoron...](https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/latest-phoronix-
articles/1040679-a-look-at-the-windows-10-vs-linux-performance-on-amd-
threadripper-2990wx?p=1040719#post1040719)

Still, over 2x increase in performance on Linux over Windows seems insane.

~~~
rbanffy
Windows is the first thing I blame ;-)

In this case, it looks like the thread scheduler is trying to do something
clever that doesn't quite work well with this specific CPU. Maybe it's
improperly localizing threads to cores or causing more cache evictions than it
should. Without seeing performance counters it's hard to guess.

~~~
gsnedders
My guess would simply be the scheduler doesn't have knowledge of the NUMA
architecture of the processor, and cannot therefore efficiently schedule tasks
to avoid large memory access costs.

~~~
caf
The firmware has long made the NUMA topology available to the OS through ACPI
tables.

~~~
rbanffy
Has a NUMA topology like this ever been used with Windows? They could be
misinterpreting it. They have quite a reputation for partial buggy
implementations of ACPI-related stuff that end up becoming de-facto standards.

~~~
snuxoll
I think it's less a matter of misinterpreting the topology, and more that the
Windows scheduler isn't prepared to handle the somewhat exotic topology;
whereas the Linux scheduler seems to be more intelligent about handling the
memory-less NUMA nodes.

~~~
rbanffy
Memory-less NUMA nodes are present on the Xeon Phi (all non-HBM is on that
node), so that looks like a good explanation. I don't think Windows can handle
it.

------
teddyh
What an odd assortment of distributions to test. I would have expected the
“Leading Distributions” according to LWN to appear:
[https://lwn.net/Distributions/#lead](https://lwn.net/Distributions/#lead)

But no Fedora, no Slackware, and, perhaps most perplexing, no Debian.

~~~
AdmiralAsshat
I can guess why he chose what he did. Ubuntu is still pretty much "the lead"
distro for your average Linux Desktop user. Antergos and Tumbleweed are both
Rolling distros and likely to be "bleeding edge" as far as any kernel changes,
making them more likely to work with the recent AMD hardware.

Clear Linux is the oddball out. Larabel uses it alot in his performance
testing articles. The distro is maintained by Intel and they do some specific
performance tuning to the kernel to work better with their chips. As a result,
it usually edges out in performance on some tests[0]. That's probably why he
included it.

[0][https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ryzen-
li...](https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ryzen-
linux-10way&num=4)

------
SmellyGeekBoy
Interesting to see OpenSUSE performing so well. It was one of my first distros
way back in the late 90s (when it was just SuSE Linux) but it seems to have
fallen by the wayside somewhat and I certainly haven't looked at it for a long
time - I'm a full time Fedora user now.

I'm going to have to revisit it soon.

~~~
opless
I wouldn't bother. It's still quite horrid.

~~~
Bootvis
At least explain why you think it's horrid.

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
Personally, I tried it and had issues with package availability. It reminds me
of RHEL without EPEL. Granted, there might be an equivalent that I didn't know
about.

EDIT/PS: this was particularly unfortunate, because ironically I really liked
the package manager itself and the rest of the system was pretty decent.

~~~
cyphar
Have you looked at Packman (one of the more well-known unofficial repos), or
OBS ([https://build.opensuse.org/](https://build.opensuse.org/))?

------
the_grue
So WHY is Windows slower? What effect can OS conceivably have on CPU
benchmarks? Off the top of my head I can think of preemptive multitasking and
memory allocation implementations (the latter shouldn't influence pure CPU
benchmarks much, but it can influence 7-Zip results), any better guesses?

~~~
swebs
There was a very good post about that a few years ago. It probably doesn't
explain this specific case, but it is a fascinating read nonetheless.

>I Contribute to the Windows Kernel. We Are Slower Than Other Operating
Systems. Here Is Why

[http://blog.zorinaq.com/i-contribute-to-the-windows-
kernel-w...](http://blog.zorinaq.com/i-contribute-to-the-windows-kernel-we-
are-slower-than-other-oper/)

~~~
Someguywhatever
Theres also the burden on Microsoft that nothing can break. Meaning: anything
that used to work before (in an earlier incarnation of Windows) must continue
to work in later versions. I don't think Linux has this burden. They are more
free to break stuff and so more free to innovate.

~~~
the_grue
I'm quite sure Linux has the same burden. Here is what Linus Torvalds has to
say:
[https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75](https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75)

------
sas41
I had to register to say this, but for anyone who is looking for a Tech
Youtuber who does Linux performance and compatibility testing, and has a good
technical knowledge in CS, I cannot recommend "Level 1 Techs" enough, Their
content is very high quality, their host, Wendell, has in-depth knowledge in
many aspects of CS, hardware, software, etc.

Their website[0] has links to their various Youtube[1] channels and their
forum, which has a really neat community.

[0] - [https://level1techs.com/](https://level1techs.com/)

[1] -
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4w1YQAJMWOz4qtxinq55LQ/](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4w1YQAJMWOz4qtxinq55LQ/)

------
sologoub
Interesting results. Anyone know why the difference between the different
Linux distros? (Ubuntu in particular)

~~~
RayDonnelly
Compiler flags mostly.

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
Also different compiler versions; I would expect gcc 7 vs 8.1 vs 8.2 to make a
difference.

------
pimeys
I'm actually considering an update to my developer workstation. The 2950X with
16 cores would be in a nice price point, with 64 GB of RAM and NixOS with a
modern kernel to drive that beast.

The only thing that bothers me is the energy usage. For 180W it costs quite a
lot to run this, especially in Germany where electricity is not cheap.

~~~
Retric
Yea, Germany electricity is ridiculous.

At a more reasonable 10c per kWh that’s 1.8 cents per hour and 157$ a year
assuming 100% useage 24/7 vs $1799 for the CPU. Hardly going to break the
bank, real world costs vs another similar CPU and you might hit 100$ worth of
electricity over a 5 year lifespan.

~~~
anc84
In Germany we care about sustainable life on this planet.

~~~
pimeys
And that's why I'm considering the energy usage. If it costs too much,
somebody gives me a message to use less energy. For example I was able to
build my NAS to use 20W of energy just because of the prices being so high.

Hopefully the investments to solar and wind will pay themselves at some point
and the price of energy plummet.

------
Mashimo
Why is ffmpeg better on Windows? (With the exception of clearLinux)

~~~
bufferoverflow
Not only that, why is there such a huge difference between ClearLinux and
Ubuntu/OpenSUSE?

Most video encoding, I assume, happens on linux machines these days. If
switching a distro can result in such drastic improvements, it can result in
massive savings for the big players, like Youtube and Twitch.

~~~
Eochei5h
If it's related to the thread scheduler yes. If it's related to compiler flags
then the big sites probably have their own optimized builds of the encoders
already.

------
digi_owl
I seem to recall some similar results back when AMD first released their APUs
with the shared FPU setup, and Windows barfed because of its scheduler.
Everyone still blamed AMD for making a crap CPU design...

------
MBCook
Strangely the article is basically useless on my iPhone. All the graphs go off
the side of the screen so unless you rotate into landscape you can’t tell any
difference in performance.

Very odd error for a benchmarking site.

~~~
kart23
Really? It looks great on my s9.

~~~
MBCook
It looks fine other than the graphs being cut off.

Just some quirk of Safari vs Chrome I bet, but I’m surprised they hadn’t
noticed/tested that case.

------
supernovae
We had this debate with all Ryzen CPU's already. This quirk of windows isn't
particular to threadripper by any means, we debated this with the 1700/1800
cpus

------
jrs95
I wonder what the performance would look like if someone got macOS running on
it...personally I’m not looking forward to another expensive Xeon based Mac.
Sure, it’s not overpriced based on the hardware they’re using. But there’s
much cheaper options to get the same performance, and a small fraction of Mac
Pro/iMac Pro users even need ECC RAM. The iMac design also has some inherent
thermal issues which make it not the best choice for a high performance
desktop system to begin with.

So, all that considered, I’ll probably be building a Hacktintosh even if I
have to pay the premium for an i9 instead of something Ryzen based. Although I
believe people had gotten first gen Ryzen chips working, so it seems like a TR
Hackintosh should be possible. I just can’t sit around waiting multiple
minutes every time I go to compile a decently sized mobile app (iOS dev being
the only reason I have a Mac to begin with)

------
lostmsu
Sadly, no compiler benchmarks.

------
bitL
How about testing on Windows Server? Still the same issues?

------
vkazanov
TL;DR

It seems that Windows doesn't like NUMA architectures all that much... Unlike
Linux where the new Threadripper rocks.

~~~
hs86
Did this ever change for macOS? When they still sold dual socket Mac Pros,
macOS was ~30% slower is some benchmarks compared to Windows on a similar
machine due to the lack of NUMA support.

After that, the Mac Pro was `innovated` and since then Macs only had uniform
memory access and I wonder if their developers ever solved this issue.

After the long neglect of their file system this might be another part of
Darwin that is behind their competition for the next couple of years.

~~~
RantyDave
The threadrippers are still only single socket. Honestly, with the way
processors are going right now, I think multi-socket may become a thing of the
past.

~~~
hs86
They are single socket but the arrangement of their CCX means that we have
NUMA even on a single socket system. AnandTech has some info:
[https://www.anandtech.com/show/11697/the-amd-ryzen-
threadrip...](https://www.anandtech.com/show/11697/the-amd-ryzen-
threadripper-1950x-and-1920x-review/3)

This results in a gaming mode which disables some cores to achieve higher fps
in not NUMA-aware games. Afair, this is even worse with the new 32 core CPUs.

------
artellectual
I think HN hammered the site. It's down now.

~~~
Mashimo
Up for me, also reddit linked to it too.

------
dingo_bat
Looks like Microsoft has been wasting time on stupid UI changes and not enough
on multi-core performance.

------
wemdyjreichert
Forget the 32-core processor; these guys installed arch? Hardcore.

~~~
mizzack
I know you're joking, but they used Antergos which is a snap to install.

~~~
wemdyjreichert
Excepting laptops w/ Nvidia Optimus stuff & power management. Easier than
stock, but still arch. Thank goodness for the arch wiki.

~~~
friesen
TBF, Optimus and power stuff aren't too much easier on a distro like Ubuntu
(granted, they _have_ come a long way). I usually end up having to look it up
in the Arch wiki anyhow. Thank god for that site.

------
rataata_jr
I don't have a windows machine. But I think Threadripper must have been
focused for Windows since most desktop users are Windows users after all.

~~~
mizzack
The CPU in question--the 2990WX--has the added "W" for "workstation", whereas
the lower core parts (which don't seem to be affected by the Windows
scheduling issue) do not have the "W" denotion.

Most TR users I know are running Linux or hypervisors.

~~~
wemdyjreichert
Definitely. Not a gaming box; more for pros.

