
Tell HN: I just wanted to say: thank you, Hacker News - d33d33
a few years ago i posted a question:<p>Ask HN: Chances for Restarting a Career in CS @ 30+ ?
( https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=7997624 )<p>after reading all the answers and recommendations, i decided to study CS in 2015.<p>it was quite challenging in every sense: time&#x2F;money management, high drop-out rates (~80% fail or stop studying cs at my university), lack of math skills - school was far far away.<p>now, i finished it and i can say, i definitely don&#x27;t regret it. it sharpened my mind and changed my mindset in a positive way. i&#x27;ve got absolutely no problems finding job offers (mainly as consultat or junior software engineers (i.e. IBM)) although i am now in my mid-thirties.<p>thank you, hn community
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50something
I am finishing my bachelors in CompSci at Harvard Extension and just got hired
by Google. And I've got about 20 years on you. So yeah, absolutely, this can
work!

It was fun and challenging competing with top computer science students. In
the long run, my organizational skills, focus, determination and world
experience outweighed their raw brainpower and better memory.

It's an ultramarathon, not a sprint.

~~~
eganist
> just got hired by Google. And I've got about 20 years on you.

As impressive as your achievement is, I'm equally impressed that Google
finally started addressing their perceived ageism problem.

~~~
50something
Google must be doing something right in their candidate triage algorithms. I
applied for one job and they suggested another that was a better fit, which I
hadn't even considered.

I applied to a bunch of places and only Google seemed to perceive the whole
package instead of myopically focusing on my recent education or last job. The
whole process was much smarter than any other company in the interview cycle.

~~~
mancerayder
Do they still weed out candidates who don't have a background in math and
algorithms for roles as SRE ones? When I read about your improved triage
experience, it's the first question that pops to my mind.

~~~
50something
I had studied a lot of ML but all the technical questions were focused on
traditional algorithms, so this was still a little retro. The math requirement
was minimal but I had more than enough from the ML coursework.

Bamberg's Math 23a / 23c is phenomenal set of classes at Harvard. You will
work like a dog but learn almost all the math you need for ML.

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hunter23
You did something way bolder but I wanted to share another successful career
restart story. I worked in tech startups in business roles (ops & product
management) but was always excited about the engineering side. I decided to do
a career restart at 32 and taught myself the basics of web development using
Udacity and other web tutorials. I then went through a coding bootcamp and
joined a mid size company.

It's been a great ride, I've worked for about 3 years on both the front end
and back end. I've been promoted twice and have started becoming assigned as
lead developer on some projects. Overall, I think I'm about 6 - 12 months away
from being promoted to a senior developer. As others mentioned, my strong soft
skills (being able to project manage myself, communicate effectively, estimate
tasks well and honor my estimates) have made me very attractive in comparison
to other candidates who have been programming since they were 12 but are much
more difficult to work with. The ability to "get stuff done" is underrated.

Anyways, the main point is I am so happy with my career restart into
programming at 32. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

~~~
artolus
I am someone who has been 'programming since they were 12' and I worry about
perhaps not being as well-rounded as you describe yourself. What kind of
experiences that taught you the soft skills you mentioned would you recommend
to someone like myself to become a more attractive engineer?

~~~
hunter23
My suggestions would be to:

* take as many opportunities as you can in presenting to others. Public speaking skills are important * refine your skills in creating good product demos of your work * spend time writing concise and well structured documentation * Do some self reflection every time you get into a heated argument with a co-worker. Think about what you could have done better to prevent emotions from flaring up. The best engineers at my company are the ones who are really good at managing discussions * Make sure that any meeting you attend flows well. If people (including yourself) are meandering from the main point of the meeting then lead the group back to the main point. Take good notes. Make sure the meeting has an agenda. If it ends early then tell people they can leave rather so you can give back attendees time. If you have a shy person in the group pro-actively ask their opinion. On the same end if you have a verbose person in the group make sure to end their discussion if they are meandering. * Put yourself in your user's shoes as much as possible. Don't just evaluate a feature from a technical standpoint, but also a user standpoint. Your product manager will be happy that they can trust you to wear a "product manager" hat

~~~
vancouverwill
Really great points here! Really liked the points about public speaking and
dealing with meetings and asking questions to shy engineers.

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austincheney
Is this age and sex bias a silicon valley problem?

I am nearly 40 and most of the developers I have worked with in the past 10+
years have always been older than me (aside from college new hires). They have
also been 20-40% female. I have spent this time working in the Westlake,
Irving, Plano technology corridor of north DFW.

I would like to hear what kind of demographics people encounter by geographic
location. I always hear about age and sex bias online, but I simply don't see
it in my area.

~~~
dahdum
SV skews young due to startups with low seed outlay. The risk and reward tends
to attract young men[1], and then the culture that results continues that
bias.

Established companies with good work-life balance, solid benefits, and
internal advancement opportunities are much closer to your experience.

1 - Edit because I've been hammered for saying this before. Many studies have
shown significantly increased financial, business, and physical risk taking in
men. That's the type I'm referring to.

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scarface74
For all intents and purposes, I "restarted" my software career in 2008 when I
was 34. I had been at one company nine years and stop learning in 2001.

When I went back on the market in 2008, I basically had to look for junior
developer jobs even though I had 12 years experience on paper - and a degree.

Fortunately(?), by then I waa so underpaid, even junior developers were making
more than I was so it was still a slight raise.

It took 10 years, a lot of humility, and a lot of job hopping to get to an
architect role and to get to the 50th-60th percentile of lead/senior developer
for my local market. (After awhile your experience doesn't mean more pay if
you're not a manager)

~~~
hi41
This is my story too. I dropped learning and got laid off. I spent 4 months
looking for a job. I joined a team that did j2ee but couldn't handle the
complexity of it. Got laid off again. Spent 4 months looking for a job. Now I
got production support job. I want to get back in programming but I find all
the new technology so hard.

------
WheelsAtLarge
Just a life tip here, make sure you work your way up the ranks. Which means
studying and learning how to manage people not learning the obscure computer
language. Tech is very tough on old guys. Programmers and CS jobs start to
disappear as you get older. The happy stories you'll read here are the
exception, not the rule. You need to cover your bases. Good luck.

~~~
eikenberry
This depends on where you live. I only really read about ageism being a
problem in the valley. Locally (US Northwest) I've never seen any sign of it.

~~~
jenscow
Same here (I'm in the UK).

It really depends on the age of what you know.

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veza
Being in a similar situation (before degree), I totally agree that I need a
solid CS education.

BUT, given that resources like
[https://teachyourselfcs.com/](https://teachyourselfcs.com/) are available for
free why should I waste money and time and energy on courses of a probable
lesser quality, at least at my local university.

The way I see it the problem is not the education itself but your
_credentials_ or _reputation_ in front of a possible employer.

So I noted down 3 ideas for myself:

    
    
       - build an Open Source reputation, by own projects and contributions - a stellar github account
    
       - get good at competitive programming - win kaggle competitions, hackerrank, top coder etc.
    
       - get a CS degree
    

To me either one of the first two seem better than a degree (given that I
learn CS on my own).

~~~
zamalek
That worked for me until I wanted a visa. Now I am getting a CS degree.

~~~
eikenberry
Was it that you needed any degree or did you specifically need a CS degree for
your visa? Which country was the visa for?

~~~
zamalek
USA. I'm currently on an L1B (which is difficult to get and renew, and only
renews once). To get an H1B I need that degree, and it helps if it's related
to the field.

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bane
HN is easily one of the most valuable "tools" I have in my toolchest. 20-30
minutes a day of front page browsing and the occasional post is like having a
secret weapon in my tech arsenal. The number of times topics (not just tech)
have come up in my professional life that I heard about first, and usually
only, on HN...and then my ability to engage reasonably intelligently on those
topics _because_ of HN is countless.

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AIX2ESXI
Hi, I'm longtime lurker and was compelled to create a HN account for this
topic. I'm in a similar position in my mid thirties; currently struggling with
a heavy course load while working full time. Most weeks I seem to get most of
my work done on the weekends and a occasional week night, struggling with the
math classes though. I think I'm about thirty units away from transferring to
the University I work for tuition free as 3rd year student.

As a sysadmin with tons of experience (rhcsa and aws certified by end of year)
I'm tempted to just give up my studies and go work remote somewhere in a
developing country since I love to travel. Though I remind myself an education
is invaluable and that my university alumni is connected and full of prestige,
I just imagine myself in Thailand making half of what I make and having a more
enjoyable life as opposed to one I here in States.

Most of my lower division classes have been online at my local community
college, but the math classes are not online and I have a hard time following
the professor's lectures and getting to class early. Youtube lectures helps
with some concepts, but I think I need to supplement my college math classes
with an online program of some sort or a private math tutor.

Can anyone recommend some math online math courses that cover Algebra to
Calculus please? Any tips that help with time management, focus and staying
motivated?

~~~
pm90
Please do finish your education... there seems to be an anti-college sentiment
on HN, but you've put in so much work, it just makes sense to get it over
with, get the damn certificate. It may not seem like much when working for
private companies, but when you work with Governments (either on contracts or
for immigration etc.) more paper education does matter, alumni networks are
helpful. And you can go to thailand even after you get the degree :).

------
aezell
Interesting. Here I am trying to figure out what I can do to get out of
technology at 40+.

Congrats on finishing school!

~~~
mmsimanga
I have just gone opposite route. I turn 42 this year and just started job in a
more technical role having spent 8 years in management. I moved into
management because I was a very good developer. I don't think I was a bad
manager, my teams did well and won awards. However, I couldn't stomach the
endless meetings and admin tasks that came with being a manager. I carried on
reading Hacker News trying to keep up with the latest trends instead of moving
on to reading management and finance sites. In the end, despite the ageism
stories abound I decided to go back to technology. Its been 3 weeks into the
new job. I am appreciating the time I have to immerse myself in the
technology. Good luck with your quest.

------
nemild
That's awesome, and an inspiration.

And I really encourage you to find a good team (rather than just focusing on
salary), it'll really level you up quickly — and set you up for lots of good
opportunities as the years go by.

------
ccajas
I'm 35 and have been working in web development since 2007, but I feel like my
career has went completely off the tracks since 2015. You see, I have been
under-employed or unemployed for three years and I cannot convert any
interviews into job offers anymore.

I also have a non-STEM degree and the prospect of going to grad school for CS
or Math related courses seems tempting. I don't want to work for local small
web shops forever, and prefer to see myself in the long run working at a big
semiconductor firm or aerospace firm. However, time and financial issues are
holding me back from trying out college again.

If OP's experience is more the norm, where tons of doors open for you simply
for having the right degree and preparation, what should I do to make ends
meet in the interim? How can I get a job to support myself while I'm attending
college, when I can't interview worth a damn? I'm hoping I can get by with a
campus job, waive part of my tuition (I've also worked on campus last time I
was in college).

~~~
vancouverwill
See my point I added today bait internet interview skills to @ccajas. It is a
whole different skill set to learn and not necessarily taught through
traditional schooling but worth the effort so that your skill set can be shown
in the best light. Good luck!

------
Jesus_Jones
Glad to hear it worked out for you! I think there's a lot of potential for
people who non-traditional students who are capable of focusing on science,
math, logic, getting retrained into CS and have a good career. We definitely
need more people in the field, and I'm sure you bring a slightly different
perspective coming in at a little bit later age.

------
robeastham
Well done you! Though 30 is not that old, I've never believed that old adage
about old dogs. Grit, determination, self belief and a positive outlook are
some of the main ingredients required to change course in life. Sacrifice will
most likely be required too if the change of course is more than 45 degrees.

------
jdlyga
I love how pure Hacker News is. It's like Digg or Slashdot 10 years ago.

------
westoque
> it was quite challenging in every sense: time/money management, high drop-
> out rates (~80% fail or stop studying cs at my university), lack of math
> skills - school was far far away.

This is where a mentor I believe does a great job. I know people that had a
hard time learning because they don't have someone guiding them. Some aspects,
like say, async programming or memory management could be hard to grasp by
yourself but when someone explains it well, then it everything starts to come
together. That's why when I'm teaching I always tell people to understand the
concepts first cause you'll only learn it once and it will help you understand
the pieces better.

~~~
WilliamSt
Any tips on finding a good mentor?

~~~
westoque
Personally, the best mentor I had was my first manager at my first job. He did
really well for himself now and probably could retire (he's in his mid 30's).

But how I found mentors naturally was hang out at a place called Hacker Dojo
here in Silicon Valley. Since they often had free JavaScript classes and
meetups, I took advantage of that to make connections and eventually found
mentors/friends and people in general that help you out.

~~~
chrisweekly
Cool! Hacker Dojo was created by my brother David. :)

------
morgosmaci
I find it interesting that you are not having a problem finding Jr SWE roles.
I co-run a computer science career community (CS Career Hackers) and I often
get a lot of complaints by new grads about the lack of Jr roles.

------
zombieprocesses
Congratulations on your new career.

On a side note, anyone else a bit worried that there being a tech or economic
bubble? Reading this thread, I can't help but be reminded of the dotcom bubble
when everyone was getting into tech or the "I just became a realtor" craze
before the housing bubble crash.

Anyone maintain a list of indicators other than S&P 500 PE ratio or the
interest rate?

I'm generally optimistic on the economy because of the tax cuts and the
expected infrastructure spending, but still, don't wait to be caught with my
pants down like the 2008 financial disaster.

~~~
vancouverwill
I'm always worried about that but have been since about 2012 so it is hard to
know what the future holds. Best hedge plan is to live well within means and
save lots so if/when there is another big crash have savings to last until the
economy gathers steam again.

------
jackhack
I remember that question/conversation. So pleased it worked out.

Mind sharing a few thoughts about your experience as an "older" student? Any
surprises about the coursework/assignments/fellow students?

Comparing my oldest child's recent university experience to mine (in the 70s)
it's like a different world. Much more paper submission & grading online, much
more 'handholding' and support from the instructors, more teamwork
assignments, less reading.

Thanks again for the followup, and congrats!!!

~~~
samayylmao
I"m working on a BS in Software Development at 27. I 100% agree with the hand
holding statement. It feels to me like universities are lowering expectations
so students pass rather than fail them. I know one individual who is a senior
in this Software Development program who doesn't understand basic concepts but
his professors have been passing him. I don't think this benefits the student,
school, or society. In fact, if anything it devalues education.

I am curious if this is an isolated situation at my university or if this
trend is more secular.

~~~
WonkeyMonkey
I've also noticed this trend, at my university and from what I hear many from
the region I'm in. I don't think that it is an isolated event.

In many classes attendance makes up a comparable portion of grades as tests,
which means in order to pass classes you need attendance points and class
assignments, many of which are "effort based", so in most cases one can fail
75% of tests and still pass with decent grades.

~~~
ryandrake
To play devil’s advocate, degrees are getting more and more expensive, making
it less and less acceptable for customers to not get something for their
money. If I pay $100K and _dont_ drop out, and still don’t get the degree, I’m
going to be enraged.

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danso
Reading this made my day. Thank you for sharing!

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MrDam
I made the same moves last year and have no regrets. I was 28 when I quit my
career in finance in May 2017. It's definitely been the hardest thing I've
ever done (System's Architecture and Computer Networks) but it's been the most
rewarding. I'll be finishing Year 1 of 3 this June.

------
Ftuuky
You have no idea how helpful to me it was reading your post. Congratulations
my dude, godspeed!

------
overthemoon
Congratulations! Did you work full time while in school? Is this in the US or
Germany? I've thought about school, I'd love to get a formal education, but I
just landed my first job and I probably won't end up doing it.

------
astro_robot
Thanks for coming back and sharing your success! It's very inspiring for me. I
just graduated with a Mechanical Engineering degree and debating going back
for a CSE Bachelor's degree but unsure if it would be worth it.

~~~
spyhi
I don't know how it is in other schools, but at mine you can get a masters in
CS even if you didn't do your undergrad in CS. They just have you take the
core undergrad CS courses, which is about 1-1.5 years of work. With an ME, it
might not even be that long. You should look into that before going for a
second bachelor's.

~~~
wikibob
Which school?

~~~
spyhi
University of Hawaii at Manoa. I'm finishing up an undergrad degrees in CS and
Business (started school at 30 after time in the military, so another success
story for this thread), but I have a few friends in the masters program who
came from other disciplines, which is how I know about this, though it's also
listed on their site.

[http://www.ics.hawaii.edu/welcome/academics/graduate-
degree-...](http://www.ics.hawaii.edu/welcome/academics/graduate-degree-
programs/m-s-in-ics/)

------
joslin01
Nice job, comp sci degree is not easy but man does it set you up for success

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antonius
Good job. I received a degree in finance and ended up not wanting to go into
banking so I went back and got my CS degree. Like you said, looking back it
was definitely worth all the time and effort.

------
d--b
Awesome. Congrats!

That said, it was kind of clear from your original post that you were headed
in the right direction! Hell, just reading/asking Hacker news meant you
already had two feet in the community :-)

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stevepm
If you don't mind me asking, where did you get your degree?

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0xdeadbeefbabe
I'd rather think about an interesting problem than think about career
building. I thought this was a common problem, but this thread is sure
different.

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kyoji
Thanks for sharing this, I just turned 30 and started a CompSci Master's track
1.5 years ago. Very encouraging to hear your success!

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megamindbrian2
How do you find offers when every resume submission is met with automated
replies?

~~~
bnchrch
You want to avoid those channels all together. Anytime you find a company that
you want to work for or one with an interesting opening try to get in direct
contact with someone at the company. Either at the manager level or in HR.

Simply asking for time to talk about the position is enough to bypass any
automated process

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wpmoradi
This made my day, thank you! I am currently working on changing careers to CS.

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pat_space
Way to go, my friend! Best of luck in your career and life!

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soupflavor
Love this. Thank you for sharing. It is an inspiration!

