
Vancouver tech surges as U.S. immigration reform idles - refurb
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/silicon-valley-north-vancouver-tech-surges-as-u-s-immigration-reform-idles-1.2732667
======
inoop
Earlier this year I interviewed for a research/engineering position at Apple.
I was offered the job, took it, and went into the H1B lottery. It took the
USCIS four months to let me know that my application was not selected, even
though it was filed under 'premium processing', and the draw had been done
using a computer in the first week after submissions closed. Since the job
required me to be in Cupertino, the deal simply fell through.

Now imagine this, you worked your ass for for a total of nine years to get
your masters and PhD, and you spent countless hours honing your skills and
finally you get a dream job that merges awesome research, top-level
engineering, and working on a product that millions of people use every day.
And then it all goes tits up because of a lottery.

A. Fucking. Lottery.

The problem for people like me is that, if I want to work in the US, I have to
go through a lottery that will keep me in uncertainty for months. Then,
_maybe_, if I'm lucky enough, I can relocate only to have the same thing
looming a few years down the line. I cannot build a life around such
uncertainty. I cannot built a future like that.

So, I'm staying in Europe. Not having been born in the US means that a lot of
jobs are just not open to me, not because it's impossible to get them, but
simply because the hassle is just not worth it anymore.

~~~
pekk
American citizens are not entitled to work in the EU. If an American wants to
plan their long-term life around working in the EU, that is far from a sure
thing. Even with a masters and PhD. So why should the US be singled out for
this?

~~~
disbelief
Countries in the EU (and elsewhere) have more sane immigration systems. As a
Canadian having immigrated to both Germany and the US, I can say that the US
system is at least two orders of magnitude more difficult, costly, needlessly
complicated, and in the end a lot of it comes down to luck (most of it bad).
Germany has no lottery system, and renewal is very straightforward. I applied
for my visa _while in Germany as a tourist_ , I was issued a "temporary visa"
while the final decision was made, and after I was accepted, the renewal
processes every couple of years was essentially a formality. There is also a
straight-forward path to permanent residency after X years working in the
country. Contrast that with how things work in the US (which I don't have time
to get into in an HN comment), and you'll see why it deserves to be singled
out for this.

~~~
refurb
One reason why non-American countries have "easier" immigration systems is
often demand related. Your example "H1-B lottery" is precisely demand related.

~~~
disbelief
Trust me, EU countries have their own immigration demand problems. Especially
a place like Germany which has one of the few functioning economies in the
block lately. People flock there looking for work. Other countries with huge
immigration demand include England and Spain. There are simply better ways of
dealing with high immigration demand than "dump everyone into a pot regardless
of education/experience/viability/urgency and randomly select a few".

~~~
mschuster91
> Other countries with huge immigration demand include England and Spain

Spain is just wanted due to the proximity to Africa and a lot of African
immigrants/refugees using this vector.

> There are simply better ways of dealing with high immigration demand than
> "dump everyone into a pot regardless of
> education/experience/viability/urgency and randomly select a few".

We Germans deal with asylum seekers by putting > 2.500 people in camps
designed for 1.500 MAXIMUM occupants (Munich, "Bayernkaserne" camp), blocking
them from work and giving them free food and 140€ per month as pocket money.

Needlessly to say, that ain't fucking enough for non-food expenses in bigger
cities, and what happens if the only thing they do is drink, smoke and fight
(as asylum seekers you must not travel around the country, you have to stay in
your processing city!) is basically a fucking violation of human dignity.

Of course it also leads to vast criminality - not just the fighting between
asylum seekers themselves, but also massive amounts of theft, pot dealing
(hello Berlin Görlitzer Park) and other criminality. In order, Nazi-parties
and other right-wing extremists gain excellent popularity with "Kick em out"
messages.

~~~
afafsd
Ah, y'see that's why we, in Australia, stick our asylum seekers in camps in
different countries like Nauru and Papua New Guinea, where whatever problems
they cause are safely out of sight.

My opinion is that the world seriously needs a new refugee convention to
prevent economic migrants from abusing the refugee system. The governing idea
should be that you can't use refugee status to move from a poorer country to a
significantly richer one. If you're a _genuine_ refugee then moving to a safer
country with similar per-capita-GDP is something you should be happy with.

~~~
jtzhou
Great idea but hard to enforce, unless the country is Israel or an island.
It's amazing how many migrants are trying to get illegally across the English
Channel from France to the UK because of better benefits and jobs.

Meanwhile, Yazidi and Syrian refugees will have to pay thousands to smugglers
or scale barbed wire fences to enter a safe country.

------
paul
I think if we ever start a second YC location, this will be the reason -- to
help founders who are unable to get past the US immigration system.

It's unfortunate that our government is becoming increasingly dysfunctional at
every level -- federal, state, and local governments are all failing to do
their jobs. I'm glad that Canada is introducing some competitive pressure.

~~~
cperciva
_I think if we ever start a second YC location, this will be the reason_

Please do. Tarsnap will apply to be part of YC Vancouver if it happens. (I'm
assuming that if you create a YC somewhere outside of the US it would be in
Vancouver, because really, nowhere else in the world is anywhere near as
awesome.)

FWIW, I think there's two "markets" of which you've only mentioned one -- in
addition to founders who can't get US visas, I know plenty of talented
Canadians and Europeans who don't want to live in the US due to the current
political climate.

~~~
McDoku
Real estate is better in Montreal. Was paying 2K for small loft 700sqft in
Gastown vs 1.3K for a 1600sqft loft in Old Montreal with a view of the
basilica.

Startup dollars will go further here and the office will be twice as awesome.
Much easier for new people to make friends and the art scene is not priced
out. Montreal is undeniably more fun.

And lord, the festivals... Mind you, winter lives here but it is sunny even
when it snows. Rain will tends to drive most people in BC a bit wonky.

I would say do Montreal if it is in the summer. Else BC. Or if it is about the
quick plane ride to silicon valley, same deal.

~~~
neilk
I've lived in Montreal (born & raised), Silicon Valley, and currently
Vancouver.

You're right that in Montreal, investment dollars will go much further, and it
is a more interesting city for a young person. If you are looking for a place
to incubate, as a young company, Montreal might be almost perfect. Similarly,
it's a great deal for a student.

But then you have to grow up and live there.

The tech talent pool is very thin, the laws are mindbogglingly perverse, and
the taxes are very high. The French/English split becomes very difficult when
you think about bringing more workers over from a non-francophone country, not
to mention their spouses and partners.

Just like foreign students, a YC company that's growing up will probably want
to get the hell out of Montreal.

At least in Vancouver you have some kind of chance to hang around, and if you
want more techies there's a reasonable local talent pool, and people from the
rest of the world don't mind moving here so much.

~~~
McDoku
Hiring has been a bit tough here, but we have also tried Ireland,
Bulgaria..etc... Good people are hard to find period

My kingdom for a fullstack capable graphic designer.

------
turar
This is a repeat of the same story that happened the last time H-1B limit
didn't meet the demand for visas. US tech companies, most notably Microsoft,
opened "offices" in Vancouver. What happens next is that those employees will
work for 1 year in Canada, and then will become eligible for L-1 intra-company
transfer back to the US, side-stepping the H-1B quagmire.

~~~
jordanthoms
Problem with the L1 is that as I understand it, if you are on a L1 you can't
apply for a green card or a H1B to stay more permanently in the US. So you are
basically wedded to the company you have the visa with.

~~~
scg
You can apply for a Green Card while you are on an L1 visa.

~~~
jordanthoms
Sorry, I must have read something wrong somewhere, thought it wasn't dual
intent.

------
walterbell
With the recent cancellation of Canadian real-estate immigration visa,
hopefully the Vancouver housing market will stabilize,
[http://www.theprovince.com/business/Will+cancellation+Immigr...](http://www.theprovince.com/business/Will+cancellation+Immigrant+Investor+Program+spark+flight+Chinese+money/9886021/story.html)

China has been allowing domestic yuan conversion to western mortgages,
boosting real estate demand in Vancouver, NY, SF & elsewhere,
[http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Secret+path+revealed+Ch...](http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Secret+path+revealed+China+billions+buying+foreign+real/10029551/story.html?__federated=1)

~~~
refurb
Wow! I had no idea the Immigrant Investor Program (IIP) worked that way in
Canada![1] Basically you just give the Canadian gov't an $800K, interest-free
loan and you get residency? Maybe I'm not reading it right, but you don't
invest your money, the gov't invests it for you? And it's guaranteed?

I thought it was more like the US system where you had to invest money in a
company of your choosing. If the company went under, tough.

The interesting thing is that the US program has an annual cap of 10,000, but
hasn't reached it in the last few years. In Canada there was a backlog of tens
of thousands of people.

[1][http://www.cic.gc.ca/enGlIsH/immigrate/business/investors/in...](http://www.cic.gc.ca/enGlIsH/immigrate/business/investors/index.asp)

~~~
raquo
AFAIK such a system is not uncommon, e.g. Australia and NZ also have it
Canada-style, but the required $ amounts in their programs are much higher.

Investing in a Canadian company is also an option to get residence.

------
parennoob
As someone in the Sisyphean green card system (processing taking forever for
the initial application, 6-7 years to go after that for the actual green card,
best case); I am really glad that Canada is offering better alternatives. I
bet if they emphasize this angle (quicker permanent residency for non-contract
employees), they will get a decent amount of talent that otherwise is stuck
grinding away in Silicon Valley for the same employer.

To anyone of Indian nationality seeking a job in North America, and interested
in permanent residency – strongly consider the Canada alternative, for
education as well as jobs. Unless the weather means a lot to you, ask your
company if they have a Canada office where you can work when you start out.
Things will be way easier.

~~~
blutoot
Working for 6-7 years for the same employer is now considered "grinding
away"??

~~~
acdha
Just to second derefr's point, that's 6+ years where you _MUST_ stay at that
job and your employer knows they don't have to keep you happy. I've heard more
than a few stories about this being publicly discussed when deciding who works
on some unrewarding slog. Imagine spending the better part of a decade knowing
that if you want to do more than, say, Sharepoint upgrades you'll have to do
it in your own time.

~~~
parennoob
To be fair, it _is_ possible to change jobs when your application is ongoing.
Just tedious. Tedious enough to be a strong disincentive.

~~~
blutoot
Can anyone realistically make a meaningful impact in a big company in less
than 6 years, especially when one is just starting out in the industry?

Also isn't it only fair that if a company that's gonna spend all this money on
changing your fortunes forever (i.e. sponsor your green card), then it should
be able to get as much value out of you as it can? So the burden falls kinda
on the employee to make the best of that period and propel her career.

~~~
parennoob
Leaving aside the somewhat patronizing nature of your comment ("can anyone
make a meaningful impact in < 6 years", "changing your fortunes forever"), I'm
simply glad there is more choice for employees out there regarding who to work
for, and am advising people to take a hard look at it.

If I work my ass off for 1, 4, or 6 years, I would much rather it be for an
optimal outcome, regardless of who my employer is, or where they are located.
If Canada is possibly offering a better deal, people should know about, and
look seriously at them. This might even possibly lead to happier and more
productive employees. Don't you agree?

------
shane999
Vancouver guy here. I work for a media company as a part of a ~60 member
software team. The fact is that probably less than ten people in the team are
actually from Vancouver. Several of them are people who lived in the US on H1B
visas that they couldn't get renewed. They come here "temporarily" but then
like the lifestyle and stay.

I totally agree that the messed up US immigration system has benefited us
here. I have experience with both immigration systems and the process in
Canada was much easier than the US.

~~~
geekam
Yea, I recently started looking at one of those high-demand fields permanent
residency programs that Canada offers. Looks pretty inviting and very little
hassle as compared to the US immigration.

------
jbarham
The main reason that companies like Sony Imageworks are in Vancouver is that
the BC government pays hundreds of millions of dollars a year in subsidies to
VFX studios if they relocate to BC. The subsidy trade war has been covered for
years by blogs such as VFX Soldier
([http://vfxsoldier.wordpress.com/](http://vfxsoldier.wordpress.com/)).

------
bayesianhorse
Stop this "immigration control" craziness. The reality in the US is sometimes,
that it is easier for low-skilled immigrants to live in the US, than it is for
high-skilled immigrants.

Why? Well, ask some of the 10million+ undocumented immigrants. They can live a
better life in the US compared to their home countries, even undocumented.
Tech workers or even middle-skilled workers take more issue with being
"illegal" or "undocumented".

I think all immigration restrictions have to be put on the stand. Are they
practical? Do they have a measurable benefit (beyond some hand-waving about
supply and demand)? Do they have measurable negative impacts?

------
jmspring
This is a complicated topic that I've been waffling on responding too.

The situation around h1b visas is messed up. But the mess is multisided. First
off, there is a large amount of unemployment in this country in the IT sector
(especially around older workers) and no apparent desire to fix it. Second,
there are "sweat shops"/consulting bodies milking the system to under pay for
what is often basic/menial work like CRUD development/etc. Third you have the
specialists at the whim of (2) and the number of allotted slots.

I think both (1) and (3) need to be fixed at the expense of (2). Any company
bringing over labor that is basic and can either be filled by outsourcing
contracts or simply training local labor should pay the price. Tata, IBM,
Wipro, etc are at the top of that list.

The current system has few filters.

Edits: typos from posting using phone.

~~~
jordanthoms
Seems one of the easier fixes would be to rank H1B applicants by salary rather
than doing a lottery. It's supposed to be used for highly skilled workers, so
I don't see why people would have a problem with it.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
Companies would have a problem with this system because H1B is _ostensibly_
about high-skilled workers who would be paid loads of money _anyway_ , but as
the statistics show, like most everything else involving employment and
American state policy, it's actually about keeping labor cheap.

------
pskittle
Has anyone here been hired by or hires engineers for an american company which
has an office in Vancouver? Would you be kind enough to talk about you
experience

~~~
papercruncher
I worked in Vancouver as a Microsoft employee for a few years, it was a great
experience. Ping me if you want to chat

~~~
Everlag
Just a heads up, your blog's domain expired twelve days ago.

------
deepGem
The sad part is that this H1B visa cap will not be raised in the near future
as the process is a part of the so called immigration reform (Dodd and Frank
bill). Why someone would club legal and illegal immigration together is beyond
my understanding.

------
bashmohandes
Been there, done that. I had the same experience back in 2008, when the
economy was on its peak --before it crashed miserably-- back then I got an
offer from Microsoft to work in their new Vancouver development center
aka(MCDC). The plan was to get everyone who is stuck waiting for their H1b
Visas to start working immediately (because Canada is awesome) while testing
their luck with the lottery and in worse case scenario working for a period of
1 year to qualify for L1 visa, the plan was working great, actually many
people ended up loving Vancouver and decided to stay there and not go to US at
all, however after the economy crashed, the H1b demand fell pretty sharp for
the next 3 to 4 years which made the whole development center purpose
unnecessary, in addition to significantly slower hiring and layoffs in that
time frame. So, now I see the same thing happening again, and I worry if this
is just a déjà vu, hopefully not, fingers crossed.

------
myth_drannon
Just a personal example, a friend of mine was looking for a web dev position
in Montreal for months until he found some low paying crappy job, he then
decided to move to Vancouver and found a job within 3 weeks! Vancouver job
market is burning hot and startups are having difficulties hiring, I read some
even consider setting up offices in Montreal.

~~~
pyre
In response to a question about why the Montreal Python user group was so
popular, I was told (by a member) that it's because there are fewer large
companies for developers, so they need to network to find jobs at smaller
firms.

------
api_or_ipa
As a young programmer within the Vancouver dev community, I can say that
everyone from the UBC CS program to the local meetup scene to the local
incubators, including GrowLab/LaunchAcademy, Invoke and Wavefront have done an
exceedingly great job and preparing for this increase in business in
Vancouver.

------
markbnj
Would this experience be any different for an American trying to work in
Canada, or somewhere in Europe? I haven't tried it, and honestly don't know.
But the tone of your comment is a little aggrieved, as if a non-US citizen
should of course find it easy to get his dream job in the U.S. My Dad recently
sold a house in Canada, and he can't get the money out of the country for six
months. Why? Because he's not Canadian. The rules in Canada were written to
benefit Canadians, not well-off guys from the U.S. who want to be able to move
money easily. It's the same with jobs. If your dream job is in the U.S. you
can always try to immigrate, I suppose. At that point a lot of these issues
would go away (and I am sure that's not much easier a road).

~~~
cylinder
Professional Canadians can work in the US pretty easily under NAFTA (and vice
versa).

------
Tiktaalik
I've found it odd that for so long there hasn't been many Vancouver branch
offices of Silicon Valley tech companies as it seems like a perfect fit.
Vancouver offers cheaper employees, the same time zone as Silicon Valley, and
an attractive, livable city* perfect for luring talent.

It's good to see that things are finally changing, even if for some companies
it seems they're setting up purely for immigration purposes. Hopefully even if
these US immigration issues pass, these companies will realize the advantages
Vancouver offers and continue to stick around.

* Highest rated North American city and 15th overall according to Monocle Magazine's 2014 Quality of Life city rankings.

------
LetBinding
Is there a Big Data / NLP / Machine Learning scene in Vancouver? I rarely see
any Data Scientist positions being advertised in Vancouver?

I am a foreigner with a PhD in applied NLP from a US university and I have
been looking at such positions in other tech hubs like Vancouver, Montreal,
Berlin, etc.

But these types of jobs only seem to be in the Valley. I work in the Valley
and I like it here but I want to move to a place where I can have a stable
immigration situation.

US immigration may be cumbersome but the most interesting jobs in Big Data
seem to be in the US.

~~~
jarek
> Is there a Big Data / NLP / Machine Learning scene in Vancouver?

Not a big one; I could think of one or two companies but it's nowhere near
e.g. NYC. But that's just specialization, just like there aren't many
advertising businesses in SF.

London seems better for ML if you're into that.

------
patmcguire
"B.C. boasts more than 600 digital media companies, employing about 16,000
people and generating $2.3 billion in annual sales, according to the
commission"

While $2 billion is obviously a lot of money in real terms, think about what
that is when you compare is to the collective revenues of Bay Area tech
companies.

------
gdilla
I am a Canadian-American, and I wish Canada actually did more to exploit US
immigration dysfunction. Unfortunately, I think the weather gives Canada a bad
rap. I'm not even joking, Canada needs a tropical island. That's really the
last step to really compete with sunny California.

~~~
peeters
> I'm not even joking, Canada needs a tropical island.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_provinces_and_territor...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_provinces_and_territories_of_Canada#Current_British_overseas_territories)

Lobby your MP! :)

------
jsudhams
Is there any reason for these companies not allowing work from home if they
don't have office in respective countries or in the respective country
offices? The B1 USA for meetings and discussion is easy to get it as long as
you have necessary letters and proof.

------
LetBinding
I am sold.

Is anyone in Vancouver hiring? Perhaps there needs to be a "Who's hiring in
Vancouver" thread, along with information on whether they will hire non-
Canadians / non-Americans stuck in the Valley due to the immigration limbo.

~~~
acrooks
We are: [http://www.stage3systems.com/](http://www.stage3systems.com/)

------
fredgrott
my solution to the H1 Lottery mess

Charge for the H1 but have no quotas

Let market demand and ability to pay tell how many H1s come in

But, with a twist..home country has to have a similar program for US workers
wanting to work that country so that the economies of both countries have a
chance to rise due to flexibility of worker immigration

------
notastartup

        - B.C.'s tech industry has many exploitative employers
        - B.C.'s tech market is underpayed, below national average.
        - B.C.'s living cost on average exceeds the average salary.
        - B.C.'s high real estate cost results in many house poor population.
        - B.C.'s political party places far more labor rights on nurses and people cutting down trees.
        - B.C. has a problem of bleeding talent to other provinces because of above reasons.
    

Source: I live here.

~~~
potatolicious
Yeah, I was raised in Vancouver and like the lifestyle enough, but moving back
is a complete non-starter. Vancouver's tech salaries are lower than other
Canadian metro areas, which are themselves _far_ lower than US salaries.

I'm literally making _3x_ more here in NYC than a similar position in
Vancouver. And housing prices (purchase, not rent) are scarily not that much
lower than Manhattan.

The general small size of the tech industry also means that if you don't like
this underpaid arrangement you're not exactly a very abundant job market.
Vancouver is a huge employer's market, which works out great for founders, but
not great for employees.

Vancouver is a lovely city - I have a lot of sentimental attachments to it -
but the economics of it for employees is nonsense.

------
Dewie
> "I will not go to Canada," said the 25-year-old from Argentina of his
> initial reaction. "Twenty degrees below zero, are you crazy?"

Perhaps the warmest major Canadian city, with a mild winter due to being
coastal ('twenty degree below zero' \- probably not).

~~~
jbarham
Certainly Vancouver's winters are milder than anywhere east of the Rockies,
but the flipside is that you have to put up with rain, rain and more rain.
After living in Vancouver for five years I moved to southern California where
the weather was fantastic. I'm now in Melbourne, Australia, which is
considered by Aussies to have cold winters but as a Canadian I just laugh
whenever I hear that.

Apart from the weather I'd say that a more legitimate reason not to move to
Vancouver is the insane cost of housing, the most expensive in North America.
For this reason alone I would never consider moving my family back to
Vancouver.

~~~
vacri
I've had both Scots and Canadians complain about how cold Melbourne gets. The
problem isn't so much that the temperature drop doesn't get below freezing
very often, it's that we don't build for the cold. Another friend says that he
knows a German who, when she visits someone's house, shakes an inner wall with
her fingertips and says "you guys can't build houses for shit". The ironic
thing is that we have some of the most expensive housing in the world, in
terms of cost vs average annual income.

This all being said, the current winter we're in has been particularly weak -
lots of warm, sunny days. It's not the usual dreary, rainy Melbourne winter.

~~~
nojvek
I'm from Australia. Can definitely say housing is cheaper than Vancouver.
Vancouver has been flooded by Super Rich Asians from China dumping their money
in property and sky rocketing the prices for property. Can't get a 2 bedroom
for less than $750,000.

~~~
jarek
> Can't get a 2 bedroom for less than $750,000.

Sure you can, maybe not in the tiny downtown peninsula. Mid-rise along Mid-
Main or Fraser, or some of the towers around Joyce goes for $500k. (Still a
lot, but not _that_ lot. I've moved to London and it's a lot more expensive
than Vancouver.)

------
eruditely
I'm finding it increasingly ever necessary to consider dual citizen-ship as an
option for the medium-future as a US(south bay) citizen.

I'm trying to work as hard as I can and start my own start up and open a
second location.

They are lost.

