
Europe's Waiting Room - Thevet
http://roadsandkingdoms.com/2015/europes-waiting-room/
======
atmosx
In order to stop having refugees, one must stop having wars, like the one we
have in Syria. The NATO supported the 'rebels' while the Russians supported
the 'authoritarian regime'. Of course depending on where you get your news
from rebels could be named 'terrorists' or 'freedom fighters' and what not.

In between a few million people die, lose everything and so forth. Entire
generations vanished. The NATO countries and Russia should take care of these
refugees. They should pay for shelter and social re-abilitation. Even host at
least half of them... Of course the best solution would be to stop war, but
people are weak and stupid.

In Greece many people help these refugees, actively. Others hate them because
especially in Athens the number of 'aliens' is overwhelming. Hence, Golden
Dawn got 6% in 2012 by running an anti-immigrant campaign.

Generally speaking throughout Europe, anti-immigration sentiment is growing
stronger. Switzerland is about to close borders to everyone else, the UK,
Slovakia, Poland and the Czech Republic want stricter immigration control.
France is openly against Muslims (due to the recent events, Charlie Hedbo,
etc.).

It's like living in 1932 all over again.

~~~
evilhaskeller
> France is openly against Muslims (due to the recent events, Charlie Hedbo,
> etc.).

What?

There is certainly a growing anti-islamism (political movement who supports
using the Qran (Muslim's sacred book) as a social and political framework),
and lots of frustrations the infamous binationals from Algeria (holders of
french and Algerian citizenships) that decided to massacre people for
drawings.

There has been also some shock to see _lots_ of support for Charlie Hebdo's
terrorists among muslim communities online. During the aftermath of the event,
a hashtag on twitter was among the top of the country (#Che - in Arabic "Che"
means "you deserved it").

I would not call France "anti-Muslim", especially when 10% of the population
is of Arabic descent, and Muslim. Seriously, the US has barely 1% of its
population that is muslim. France has no lessons to receive to anyone
concerning how it handles its muslim majority. The cultural pressure is
unparalleled.

Disclosure: French expat of Algerian descent - immigrated to France in the
90s.

~~~
atmosx
How would you call that? [1]

[1] [http://www.rt.com/news/224395-muslim-incidents-rise-
france/](http://www.rt.com/news/224395-muslim-incidents-rise-france/)

~~~
evilhaskeller
I do deny that there are rising tensions. However, before I continue, I would
like to highlight that those numbers are coming from a non-gov that have a
pretty infamous record, as well as strong ties with Islam fundamentalism
circles.

\- Their definition of "hate-crime" is pretty blurry. For example, in 2007 a
civil employee asked a muslim woman who was fully veiled to take off her niqab
in order to verify her identity. This was considered a "hate crime". There is
a plethora of similar stories.

\- They do not disclose their methodology or data.

\- They hold some seriously backward views on society. For example, they
consider any feminist organization to be "islamophobic" de facto. There have
been plenty of controversies raised by their leadership for being openly
antisemite. Accusing the government "of favoring the jews".

If you read french, more at
[https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectif_contre_l%27islamopho...](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectif_contre_l%27islamophobie_en_France),
there has been some very interesting analysis made by investigation journalist
from Le Monde (left) as well.

=====

Now, even ignoring the fact that those numbers are almost certainly made up. I
do not think you can really generalize that to the whole country. It is really
confusing for an outsider, but refugees, educated muslims and muslims living
in the suburbs are pretty much very distinct groups in the eyes of most
people.

No one is pissed at someone for being a muslim, what generates anger and
frustration are the ones who: \- commit crimes \- try to pull their religion
on everyone else.

I would not say that France is openly against muslims. There isn't one muslim
community. Plenty of people from north-african ancestry, who happen to have
been raised by a muslim family are doing just fine. I have friends, lived in a
nice neighborhood in Paris. I was invited by my neighbors, and so on.

I am now living in SF, it's a bit different although I haven't had any major
issues. I got some stares from time to time, but it's probably because I walk
funny.

------
lordnacho
This whole refugee crisis is hard for me to accept.

My whole family ended up in the West in an earlier crisis, and they tell us
about how they rented crappy boats, almost died, almost got pirated, etc,
trying to get across the water.

They also talk about the generosity they met once they got to their respective
countries. There's stories about various strangers who volunteered to put up
entire families in their own houses, helped them with the language, getting a
job, studying, childcare, and so on.

A few weeks ago I was driving through Calais, and there were so many migrants
on the road they spilled onto the opposite lane. There's stories about people
getting killed clinging on to the bottoms of trucks, people dying of
asphyxiation in containers, people getting run over by the train. People dying
in overfilled boats.

-How did attitudes change so much that we can no longer accept that someone would like to change an accident of birth?

-Why do we hide behind refugee status (and there are real refugess from war these days, esp in Turkey) when we know that people did not choose to be born in an economic hellhole?

-Are we really happy to let capital move freely but keep the labor stuck where it is cheapest?

EDIT:

So, before I got attacked for not feeding, housing, and educating thousands of
migrants on my own, I was going to add this:

\- Why is there such reluctance to spread the burden? The numbers arriving in
Italy and Greece are orders of magnitude higher that those living in the
shanty in Calais, hoping to come to the UK. It was 140K crossing the Med
according to the BBC in 2014. There's 350M people in Europe, and several of
the rich states are actually shrinking.

~~~
tomjen3
I don't really mind letting a lot of people in who are willing and able to
work. I mind letting people in who are going to receive the very generous
welfare payments Denmark gives out, and which are part of the social contract
since they never payed into the system.

I absolutely hate those who come here and turn to crime - want to come and
work? Fine, show that you have a job and you can stay. Want to come and start
a business? Excellent. Show that your are making money, you can stay.

Want to come and contribute to the fact that Denmark has the highest rate of
burglaries in the EU? You can stay out.

~~~
lordnacho
>I don't really mind letting a lot of people in who are willing and able to
work. I mind letting people in who are going to receive the very generous
welfare payments Denmark gives out, and which are part of the social contract
since they never payed into the system.

Quite a lot of locals have a negative balance vs the system. Doesn't it seem a
bit arbitrary to leave it that way? How about a probation system... learn the
language, get a job, limit the money you can take, and don't commit any
crimes.

~~~
venomsnake
> Doesn't it seem a bit arbitrary to leave it that way?

It is not arbitrary. A country has obligations fundamentally only to its
citizens. The whole sovereignty thing.

~~~
lordnacho
The whole notion of sovereignty in its current form is an accident of European
history. The borders of the world can't be said to be much other than
arbitrary, for huge pieces of it.

Seen another way, you could remove the citizenship of people who went
negative. Then you'd be rid of your obligations.

If it sounds absurd, that's because it is.

------
Gravityloss
Take some countries where refugees are coming from. Just Nigeria itself has a
population of 177 million.

Disregarding individual near term humanitary issues for a moment and looking
at the big long term picture, it's not likely that a large portion of Nigerian
people's lives can be improved by moving to Europe.

The most efficient way is probably to help it locally.

This is what organizations like the Gates foundation and also many development
aid projects (not all) are aiming towards. Some for example boost
entrepreneurship, where a larger portion of the value addition chain could be
done locally before export (instead of just exporting raw materials etc).

~~~
atmosx
It takes 1 Libya bombing to create a damage so big would take 1000x Gates
foundations to heal.

The bigger problem is that average Joe doesn't give a sh _t. As long as the
refugee /immigrant is not there, to _get his job* he doesn't care. When he
finally arrives and takes his job, instead of getting mad to the people who is
exploiting the situation, he gets mad to the immigrant who can barely speak
the language.

~~~
evilhaskeller
> The bigger problem is that average Joe doesn't give a sht. As long as the
> refugee/immigrant is not there, to get his job* he doesn't care. When he
> finally arrives and takes his job, instead of getting mad to the people who
> is exploiting the situation, he gets mad to the immigrant who can barely
> speak the language.

I think you dramatically underestimate the place cultural differences are
taking in the growing frustration of the people of Europe. Three things:

* - Because racial statistics are forbidden in Europe, whenever someone complains that element from a certain group are causing problems their opinion is immediately dismissed as being racist. If you spend even a week in Paris, chances it will be hard for you to stay neutral and support that Muslims/Gipsies aren't committing more crimes than any other groups combined.

The problem is, people aren't oblivious to what happen around them. When some
of your relatives/friends gets assaulted in the subway once by someone from
north-african ancestry, it is a coincidence. Twice, it was bad luck. Third,
something is going on.

* - More people complain that they do not want such a steady, and large immigraiton flow. Politicians, because they are either powerless or stubborn ignore the people -> Far right politicians, who have put secure borders and immigration quota at the DNA of their programs are on the rise.

Rinse, and repeat.

~~~
_delirium
I don't know much about France, but in Denmark people definitely notice _some_
groups' criminality more than others. There are basically two main groups that
contribute a disproportionate amount of Denmark's crime: 1) poor immigrants,
and 2) poor Danes. The media seems to like railing against #1 a lot more than
#2, though. It's no longer politically incorrect to stereotype immigrants in
general, but it's still taboo to stereotype poor, uneducated Danes; you'll be
accused of being just an elite Copenhagener who looks down on "white trash".

Much of Denmark's violence (though there isn't a lot of violence) comes
precisely where these two groups meet each other and get into fights, over for
example controlling the drug trade. Shootouts between biker gangs (who are
almost exclusively Danish) and immigrant gangs (who are obviously not) are
some of the few times you will find an actual shooting in Denmark. If gangs of
Danes are fighting gangs of immigrants over control of an illegal business, I
personally blame both groups, not only the immigrants.

~~~
evilhaskeller
I think you have addressed the core of the issue.

Criminality isn't tied to race, or religion but to an individual's socio-
economic background. Poor people are more likely to commit crimes than other.
Maybe cultural factors can come into play, but probably in less significant
proportions.

I do not think however that it is realistic to expect to integrate culturally
AND economically that many people at once.

If I am right, it means that crimes committed by immigrants will rise even
more (not because they are immigrants, but because they are poorer) causing
even more frustration until we reach a breaking point, where people say
"enough!".

I think this would be a tragedy.

------
krampian
On that note, Europe has more than one waiting room these days. Malta and
parts of Italy seem to be fulfilling a similar role for illegal migrants
coming north from Africa, for example.

~~~
venomsnake
Don't forget whole of Libya :(

