
Most Money Advice Is Worthless When You’re Poor - paulpauper
https://free.vice.com/en_us/article/ev3dde/most-money-advice-is-worthless
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aw3c2
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Vimes#Boots_theory_of_soci...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Vimes#Boots_theory_of_socio-
economic_unfairness)

> The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they
> managed to spend less money.

> Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus
> allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an
> affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then
> leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those
> were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so
> thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the
> feel of the cobbles.

> But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who
> could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his
> feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap
> boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would
> still have wet feet.

> This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic
> unfairness.

Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms

~~~
pasta
I don't think this applies anymore.

Cheap is getting better and better. And the rich just buy new because they
like to go with the trend spending hundreds of dollars on boots.

Most people I know (Netherlands) who are not wealthy have mental issues or
don't know how to manage money.

Edit: I don't want to sound like I think the author belongs to those 2 groups.
There are many more reasons why someone is poor.

~~~
tarboreus
I think it's fair to say that this is less true in America, where we have
essentially no social safety net.

~~~
chrisco255
We also have a HUGE, far more diverse, far more spread out population that's
an order of magnitude larger than the Netherlands.

------
PeterisP
This kind of has a very simple point - advice is useful iff your problem is
caused by bad choices, and advising to make better choices can help. If your
problem is caused by external forces that your choices can't change much, then
it's better to devote all your energy to doing stuff instead of looking for
advice on how to do stuff better, because there's no silver bullet, you can't
do significantly better, and you don't need to waste effort on looking for it.

If after non-negotiable expenses you have barely any money to budget, then
budgeting advice is useless as your budgeting choices don't matter much.
Career advice, on the other hand, may be useful in that case.

If you're unable to work because of a disability or other factors, then career
advice is useless as your career choices don't matter much, but financial tips
on how to get the medicine you need in the most affordable way may be useful.

~~~
village-idiot
Also, budgeting and finding ways to save money take time, energy, and skill.
The author of this article literally couldn’t afford one of the more popular
budgeting apps, You Need a Budget, from the liquid cash they had on hand.

Same goes for saving money by cooking at home. It works, but it takes skill
and time. If you’re working 60-80hrs a week then it’s very hard to justify
that time expenditure, and triply hard to justify the up front cost of tools
and ingredients. $20 for a mediocre kitchen knife is 6-10 McDonald’s meals
($1,$2,$3 menu), putting someone who is already broke deep into the red before
seeing any returns.

------
esotericn
Most advice on anything is useless if you're not the target audience.

If you're earning nothing and have no savings, you need crisis mode budgeting.

Think the financial equivalent of malnourishment - you don't want the regular
food pyramid, you need an IV drip.

This doesn't actually change ever. The 'best course of action' changes at
every level.

Poor people money advice is worthless to rich people too. Lower middle class
advice on 'how to save for a home deposit' is completely useless to the
wealthy.

Usain Bolt doesn't take advice from the guy running in the park either.

------
xythian
A shoutout to
[https://www.reddit.com/r/povertyfinance/](https://www.reddit.com/r/povertyfinance/)
as a community that is attempting to discuss and distill the kind of financial
advice that is useful for those with little to no means.

> Much of the financial advice online and on reddit is aimed at people who
> have varying degrees of disposable income, ability to invest, lots of free
> time, available transportation, no kids, a partner, access to credit, and
> beyond. This is a place for people who do not have a lot, nor ideal
> circumstances, to help each other get by and hopefully move up in the world.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Reddit is a crap place to go for advice if you're in a situation where all the
options are sub-optimal because any advice that isn't 100% by the book ethical
or any advice that puts a negative externality on society for personal benefit
results in down-votes and name callings. Often times that means your "best"
options are off the table. It is also very much against "low class" ways of
saving money. Stuff like "just smash your old tube TV and throw the pieces in
the household trash in order to save the $20 disposal fee" or is not exactly
appreciated there. God forbid you tell somebody that they <gasp> shouldn't buy
snow tires. The internet in general is just shit when it comes to being
frugal. It's really easy to tell someone else how to spend their money.

Edit: Anyone want to tell my why I'm apparently so wrong?

~~~
em-bee
you are probably being downvoted because you seem to suggest that illegal or
imoral actions should somehow be acceptable just because you need to save
money.

------
rfugger
The real question here is if the author went to college and got a degree, why
are they working in sandwich shops? I'm not saying there's not a reasonable
explanation for their situation, but any discussion of their particular
problem should start there. Obviously there are people who are doing the best
they can in a sandwich shop, and those people may need better support than
they're getting, but I don't think that's quite the case here.

~~~
RickJWagner
The author's Twitter account shows that she flies from New York to LA for
television projects.

She's not just a sandwich-shop worker, apparently.

------
notacoward
There's a lot more to being poor than not having money. Being poor and healthy
is not the same as being poor and unhealthy, as the most obvious example.
Being poor but healthy, smart and/or educated, non-addicted, connected to
family and friends who will keep you off that last step to oblivion is
different than being poor and none of those things. Poor nutrition and sleep
and being cold all the time can really do a number on your brain. So can the
stress of not knowing where your - or your children's - next meal is coming
from. The isolation and despair and distrust that come with spending any time
at all in that condition can stay with you for years.

So yeah, poor people follow a _very_ different decision process, which might
not seem rational to people who have only ever been poor in the low-bank-
balance sense (if that). Don't tell someone who's already deprived to deprive
themselves further. Those small indulgences might be the only thing keeping
people from giving up entirely. To the extent that the truly poor need advice
from the less poor at all, it's advice on how to secure the most basic of
needs in the short to medium term. Only then, only when the most severe
psychological effects of being poor have been dealt with, is it rational to
expect that people will start looking further up Maslow's pyramid to things
like longer-term financial security.

~~~
zozbot123
> Those small indulgences might be the only thing keeping people from giving
> up entirely.

I might be sympathetic to that point of view... but then what about the
'indulgence' of keeping a rainy-day fund? You know, the one indulgence that OP
fails to acknowledge in any way and even disparages, despite the fact that
indulging in this _gets rid_ of a major source of stress in a poor person's
life? _This_ is why you should save, even at strenuous cost. Because when you
save, you _do_ feel better.

------
username90
I have yet to see a poor person blog written by anyone who are actually too
poor to save, instead its just people who don't understand how much all the
small things they buy actually adds up at the end of the month. In the end you
just need a computer (20$ a month over its lifetime) with internet (10$ a
month) for most non-physical needs, food is dirt cheap if you just buy the
right things (2$ a day so 60$ a month is enough to live healthily) and clothes
last a very long time so no need to buy new ones that often (~20$ a month),
then you have 40$ a month for random things. That is 150$ a month after rent
and transportation, if you got more than that and still can't save you are
doing something wrong.

Personally I lived like that for many years, with 350$ rent on 1000$ income
and thus saved 500$ a month, after a few years you will have saved a couple of
ten thousand dollars. That was enough for me to take time off to learn
programming properly without worrying about money, I am now working as a
software engineer and make lots of money (not sure how people can find enough
important things to spend this much on...) but I hated blogs like this even
when I was poor.

------
bloaf
The one universal piece of money advice is "Spend less than you earn, and put
the difference somewhere that earns interest." Most articles, recognizing this
universal truth, go on to propose ways of spending less and saving more
efficiently. The author of this piece, having reduced his spending as low as
reasonably possible, actually just needs advice on how to earn more.

~~~
Gibbon1
When I was dead broke that's what I did. Reduced expenses and then focused on
bringing in as much cash as I could sustain.

Towards the end of that people on 6th street stopped asking for change and
instead would say things like, do you know if check day is Friday or Monday
this month. That question was when I realized I needed a new jacket.

------
hourislate
Being a first generation American and coming from an environment of poverty,
my parents sacrificed their health and lives to give us kids a better one. My
father did the hardest, dirtiest work that was unfit for a beast and mother
cleaned houses. They had nothing but made sure the kids had everything they
needed (cloths, education, food) and through their sacrifice the chains of
poverty were broken.

Millions of Immigrants come to the USA/Canada with nothing but the cloths on
their backs and somehow they manage to support themselves and their families.
Others are 4th, 5th Generation Americans and can't seem to get off Welfare or
dig themselves out of a hole.

I don't understand.....

~~~
rue
You know, all immigrants can’t do that either. And other “others” do just
fine.

You have what’s called “survivor bias”, and you need to get past it to
understand systemic issues.

~~~
tomcam
Did the parent say all immigrants? Read the post a couple of times and
couldn’t find that wording

~~~
rue
Try looking between the lines.

------
RickJWagner
The author (Talia Jane) has some interesting tweets.

My BS-meter is showing a strong reading after seeing these:

"i’m pretty blindly aggressive against all the manifestations of capitalism so
naturally my takeaway is Eliminate The Stock Market: It Is Stupid And Harmful
And Archaic And, Perhaps Worst Of All, Boring."

"moisturizing in my 20s like i’m in my 40s with the (pointless) hope i won’t
look like i’m in my 50s by the time i hit my 30s"

Here she's offering to help buy some guy a mattress:
[https://mobile.twitter.com/itsa_talia/status/107409983684723...](https://mobile.twitter.com/itsa_talia/status/1074099836847239168?p=v)

Here's she's gone to LA (from New York) for work:

"lemme try this in LA-speak: hey, LA buds! although i’m in town working on a
tv project, i’d love to hang out tonight! let me know if you’re interested!"

~~~
RickJWagner
I'm disappointed someone would down-vote this. Sincerely: Why would you do
such a thing?

In my thinking, this author does not seem to be living the life of a poor
person trying to save.

If you downvote, please share your point of view. I'd really like to
understand.

~~~
zozbot123
I mean, who _wouldn 't_ have trouble saving after Eliminating the Stock Market
and perhaps "all the manifestations of capitalism"? Because isn't that what
capitalism is all about? Saving, and accumulating some capital, some seed
corn, so that you _don 't_ have to live hand-to-mouth?

------
speedplane
This person is clearly a good writer and is persuasive to a degree. He or she
clearly has potential if they find the right place for it.

------
sys_64738
Best advice I ever got is to never listen to other people's advice. They're
usually wrong.

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your-nanny
if the author has a degree as claimed, then the author is eligible for a
number of better jobs, even part time ones, and doesn't have to work to flip
burgers. Substitute teaching pays better, usually, and is easier to do; also
gives you professional contacts. Getting a credential on top of your
bachelor's is within reach for most people; some districts so desperate for
teachers they'll hire you anyway, provisionally. With a bachelor's you can
also teach SAT prep and tutor, all of which pay better than fast food. And the
guy can write obviously.

I come from a poor neighborhood. I get it. Most of childhood friends are in
jail or are dead. But I have a hard time believing someone with a bachelor's
has to scratch it with the rest of them with multiple part time jobs, not in
this economy for sure.

------
rue
Anybody want odds on 50% of these comments being exactly that worthless
advice?

------
bluedevil2k
> The way I see it, being poor is like having cancer

What a terrible way to look at it, making it seem like it’s entirely out of
your control and you need outside help just to survive. There’s many examples
of people who have climbed out of poverty to middle class, even upper class. I
highly doubt they’d spread the advice that being poor is a hopeless disease.

~~~
paulpauper
I think IQ, which is biological and intrinsic to the individual, plays an
important role in upward mobility. All else being equal, someone with an IQ of
80-100 is going to have a harder time climbing out of poverty than someone
with an IQ higher than 115.

~~~
bluedevil2k
That’s probably a far too simplistic way of putting it - I would actually
think people with a hard work ethic (ie gumption, ie stick-to-it-iveness)
would be more likely to climb their way out of poverty.

------
Raidion
Of course "don't by the avacado toast or lattes" doesn't help save you money
when you aren't buying that stuff in the first place. Complaining that advice
on Google that applies to the 15%-85% bracket doesn't apply to you is similar
in saying that "Most health advice is worthless when you have cancer". You
have a situation that is outside the norm, and you're trying to apply general
information against that, of course it's not going to work.

~~~
EliRivers
Yet in this very thread is someone who read the article, read that these
people do not have the kind of money that enables the creation of savings, and
glibly gave the advice to save up.

The problem isn't _just_ that common advice isn't helpful; it's well-meaning
outsiders just missing this over and over and endlessly giving the same
unhelpful, irrelevant advice.

------
jotm
What a terrible article. Sure, yeah, you're poor, own it, give up. Go buy that
fast food shit, get fat and damage your health. Buy all that alcohol that
helps you get through life, _that will definitely help_. FFS.

No, you try, fail, try again, fail, try some more - to save up, and start
making more. All that advice glosses over just how hard it actually is (not
that it can even convey it properly), and it takes time, but you can't give up
unless you're ready to kick the bucket at any time.

~~~
EliRivers
This advice seems pretty irrelevant. She just said that these people do not
have any spare money to save up, but this advice is "save up".

~~~
jotm
The article's conclusion is "yeah, forget trying, get that fast food, indulge
in what makes you feel better about your shit circumstances"

Which is the worst thing one can say. It's just a short term relief. If you
plan on living, you need to NOT waste money AND always look for better
opportunities.

At the core, there's really three options: Advance (save more, learn more, to
ultimately earn more), survive hoping there's no major personal disasters, or
die. If you plan on living, it's best not to give into the easy choice.

Also typical HN, discuss poverty and pat yourselves on the back for thinking
about the poor (unlike those _other_ cunts), while downvoting people with
actual experience because it makes you feel bad. Waah, waah. Just fucking ban
this account already, I don't even know why I'm here. Upvotes for everyone.

