

Ask HN: What's it like working as a finance developer? - michael_miller

I've had experience interning out at a large Silicon Valley company(soon to be two). It's been a blast, and I've had a ton of fun. I've gotten a pretty good feel for how Silicon Valley operates, and I know I'd be happy taking a full-time offer out there. However, part of me wonders what other possibilities there are beyond the Bay Area.<p>One particular area which I'm curious about is finance. My (limited) understanding of software engineering in finance is that developers are treated as second-class citizens, paid comparatively poorly(though not absolutely) to traders, and are expected to put in long hours. The last part doesn't bother me so much, but I am curious about the first two aspects.<p>I'd be interested to hear from people working in finance on the following questions:<p>- Is it true that developers are treated like support staff to traders?<p>- To be blunt: What are typical salaries for software engineers in finance?<p>- For those who have experience working in the Valley as well: how does it  compare?
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cdmcnamara
I completed an internship at a large bank this summer in their Technology
Analyst program. They basically house all the technical people into technology
and it ranges from IT people to developers. Within the world of finance front
office > all and are treated like it and treat others like crap. If you're
really interested in working in finance as a developer I would look into
either doing quant development or working at a respected proprietary trading
firm like Susquehanna International Group, Optiver, GETCO, Jane Street, etc.
These firms are definitely more quant and your development skills will be
utilized here far more than at a large bank. Hope this helps.

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cdmcnamara
The starting salaries in the Technology Analyst programs at large banks in NYC
are ~65k.

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michael_miller
That seems really, really low in comparison to Silicon Valley. The typical
numbers I've heard thrown around are 90-100k for new CS grads, plus bonuses.
Does "Technology Analyst" refer to 'IT guy' or 'developer'? Also, the salary
seems really hard to live on in NYC(being from the area).

~~~
cdmcnamara
The scope of the Technology group ranges from typical IT stuff to development.
In general there is another group closer associated to the Trading group along
the lines of Quantitative Development. I believe all of these interns were
Financial Engineering majors, none were CS majors (a lot more hardcore math
involved). These salaries were closer to ~90-100k.

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veyron
tl;dr: at most banks, the traders directly drive pnl. developers are seen as
secondary since they treat the process as developers supporting traders. At
other places, the developers are the true source of "alpha", and there the
developers are treated like rock stars.

"developers are treated as second-class citizens" <\-- partially true

There are two classes of developers: those who drive pnl and tose who don't.

To give an example, I built an ultra low latency trading operation. My
development [granted, it was only part of my work process] directly resulted
in pnl and it could be proven.

Some of my friends worked in the IT departments of some investment banks (GS,
MS, JPM, etc). Many of them are doing things which do not directly generate
pnl, nor could their work be attributed to the revenue of any division.

"paid comparatively poorly(though not absolutely) to traders" <\-- partially
true

Traders are paid more because it is easier to attribute pnl to them.
Developers in a quantitative shop are paid better than the traders, because in
those contexts the developers bring more value to the process than traders.

"are expected to put in long hours" <\-- partially true

I've never had to work outside of 9-6. However, in some places, where they
care about headcount, people work longer hours.

"- Is it true that developers are treated like support staff to traders?"

Depends on the place

"- To be blunt: What are typical salaries for software engineers in finance?"

For support, salaries are like 70K. At a quant shop, you are looking at like
100-150K. At a hft developer, 200-300K is pretty common (but those jobs are
hard to land, mainly because those funds arent doing as well thanks to a low
VIX)

"- For those who have experience working in the Valley as well: how does it
compare?"

Cannot say

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michael_miller
What skills do HFT shops look for in a developer? Do they require finance
knowledge, or do they "just" want a rockstar systems hacker who can optimize
packet delivery latency by hacking the kernel?

~~~
nandemo
Some people are making reports using Excel/VBA or Perl, some are building
trading gateways in C++ from scratch, some are developing trading models
(typically requires a PhD or a financial engineering master's).

Take a look at the websites of the prop trading shops cdmcnamara mentioned.
Mind you, getting a job at SIG, Jane Street, etc, is harder than getting a job
at Google, Facebook, etc.

~~~
veyron
"Some people are making reports using Excel/VBA or Perl" <\-- these are the
second-class people, so to speak.

"some are building trading gateways in C++ from scratch" <\-- depending on the
shop, its either support (banks) or first-class (hft)

"some are developing trading models (typically requires a PhD or a financial
engineering master's)" <\-- this is not completely true. GETCO for example
hires mostly bachelor's.

"getting a job at SIG, Jane Street, etc, is harder than getting a job at
Google, Facebook, etc." <\-- its primarily harder because the competition is
tighter and the work is very different from what silicon valley asks for.

