
Mobile phones are 'cooking' men's sperm - rayascott
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/12167957/Mobile-phones-are-cooking-mens-sperm.html
======
gjm11
The first paragraph in the article says: 'Fertility experts are warning man
that using a mobile for as little as an hour a day is "cooking sperm" and
lowering level significantly.'

Assuming for the sake of argument that the findings of this research are
actually correct, it seems to me that using your mobile phone _more_ would
_reduce_ the sperm-cooking effect, because most ways of actually using a
mobile phone don't involve holding it near your groin.

The reported effect is large enough that I strongly suspect it's (1) just
wrong or (2) actually caused by some other thing that happens to correlate
with mobile phone use. The _Telegraph_ article doesn't seem to provide a link
to the actual study, so it's hard to tell.

I notice that they say "The team monitored more than 100 men attending a
fertility clinic for a year" \-- it's hard to see how any study based only on
looking at men who are having trouble conceiving could actually provide the
information the _Telegraph_ is suggesting this one does.

~~~
geomark
That last bit of information is kind of a hilarious confounder.

------
apsec112
I call BS. There is no known plausible mechanism for this - radio waves from
phones are much longer wavelength and much lower power than the infrared
radiation emitted by everything at room temperature. The study itself is
paywalled, but from the abstract it appears to be small, based on a survey
rather than a randomized trial, and doesn't mention controlling for obvious
confounders like socioeconomic status.

Beware The Man Of One Study: [http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/12/beware-the-
man-of-one-s...](http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/12/beware-the-man-of-one-
study/)

~~~
rjsw
Smartphones usually also have WiFi, which is the correct wavelength to heat
things up.

~~~
erikpukinskis
The amount of energy involved is tiny though, and we have a variety of systems
that continually manage temperatures throughout our body.

It's like people who go crazy about radiation because it destroys DNA. Yes, it
does, but that's happening continuously and is under continuous repair. Adding
a small amount of energy to a system in homeostatis changes nothing.

~~~
Gnarl
With chronic exposure, the rate of damage will eventually exceed the rate of
repair as cell energy is depleted. If you examine the sci.literature on
biological effects of RF, you'll discover that oxidative stress and free
radical formation following non-thermal RF exposure is well documented.

------
sschueller
Just like in the VW emissions scandal, a similar thing is probably happening
with radio devices. The inspection is no longer done by the FCC but instead by
private corporations paid for by the industry. Can we trust these companies to
have our interest in mind? It didn't work with financial ratings and car
emissions, why would it work for the FCC or FDA?

~~~
fucking_tragedy
If the free market demands market collusion then who are we to regulate the
flow of the close-to-perfect information needed to make a informed decision as
a rational actor?

Read Atlas Shrugged.

~~~
corney91
Ha! If the free market says every man should be infertile I think I'll avoid
the free market.

~~~
harryf
Well there is that small issue of over population and the impact we're having
on the environment so perhaps this is the free market solution?

~~~
alanwatts
We already tried sterilization and eugenics back in the 1920's-1940's.

A more intelligent and humane approach to overpopulation lies in the
recognition of the demographic-economic paradox:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility)

>There exists a realizable, evolutionary alternative to our being either atom-
bombed into extinction or crowding ourselves off the planet. The alternative
is the computer-persuadable veering of big business from its weaponry fixation
to accommodation of all humanity at an aerospace level of technology, with the
vastly larger, far more enduringly profitable for all, entirely new World
Livingry Service Industry. It is statistically evident that the more advanced
the living standard, the lower the birth rate.

-Buckminster Fuller

~~~
filoeleven
That all depends on if your concerns about overpopulation are based on
available space versus available resources. Fuller's conjecture might work for
conserving space, but a child born in a first-world country will use something
like 800x the resources of a child born in a third-world country. Clearly a
higher and more equitable standard of living for everyone is desirable, but we
also need to figure out how to cut way back on resource usage at the same
time.

~~~
alanwatts
Fuller's theory was based on both the efficient use of space and the
efficient, renewable production and distribution of resources:

>In technology's "invisible" world, inventors continually increase the
quantity and quality of performed work per each volume or pound of material,
erg of energy, and unit of worker and "overhead" time invested in each given
increment of attained functional performance. This complex process we call
progressive ephemeralization. In 1970, the sum total of increases in overall
technological know-how and their comprehensive integration took humanity
across the epochal but invisible threshold into a state of technically
realizable and economically feasible universal success for all humanity

-Grunch of Giants

>but a child born in a first-world country will use something like 800x the
resources of a child born in a third-world country. Clearly a higher and more
equitable standard of living for everyone is desirable, but we also need to
figure out how to cut way back on resource usage at the same time.

The Fuller house was an example of how to cut back on that higher resource
usage by using intelligent architecture and design. It is important to cut
back resource usage in many areas. It is likewise important to cut back on
resource waste (the resources that goes unused). Most importantly, the surplus
of food, water, and shelter that goes wasted every year which nearly half of
the world's population struggles to obtain. Effectively distributing this
waste could go a long ways to ending war, violence, mental illness, disease,
substance abuse, and a whole host of other problems.

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
The case for laptop computers kept on the lap when they're hot having an
effect on this clearer because they can heat up the groin and part of the
reason there is a ball sack hanging out of the body is to keep them cooler
than the rest of the body, so heating them up is not a good idea if you're
interested in getting a woman pregnant. This is not major worry though since
apparently it is reversible if you stop using laptops this way. For a phone
though unless it's hot, harder to understand why this would cause this.

I like how the articles specifies men's sperm as opposed to women's sperm.
Although that does bring up a point about whether someone should research the
effect on corresponding female parts.

~~~
koolba
> I like how the articles specifies men's sperm as opposed to women's sperm.
> Although that does bring up a point about whether someone should research
> the effect on corresponding female parts.

Where did you go to school and what exactly do you think is "woman's sperm"?
Do you mean her cache of eggs?

~~~
wheat7420
He was pointing out that the article's use of phrase "male sperm" is an
unnecessarily clarification, as there could be no other type.

~~~
ajeet_dhaliwal
Thanks

------
Gnarl
The main biological impact of low-level microwaves is oxidative stress damage
and free radical formation. These effects are seen in most cell types after
even low-level microwave exposure and can lead to DNA damage. Sperm cells lack
the protective mechanisms other, more permanent cell types employ so the
effect is more apparent in sperm. Its not a thermal effect, as the headline
would suggest, as it happens at levels far below the threshold of RF heating.
Thus: official safety guidelines are not protective and need to be revised to
take into account non-thermal RF effects. In the meanwhile, reduce your
exposure. For reviews on these effects see Yakymenko I. et al. 2015 and Pall
M. 2013.

~~~
pmarreck
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/6656806/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/6656806/)

44 watts/kg in a waveguide system of 2.45 GHz microwave radiation for 30 min.,
is representative of cellphone use?

~~~
Gnarl
That was in 1983. See Yakymenko I. et al 2015 and Pall M. 2013 for more recent
sci.literature (they're both reviews).

~~~
abledon
Yakymenko
[http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/15368378.2015.104...](http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/15368378.2015.1043557)

Pall M
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3780531/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3780531/)

\----------- And a few extra data points:

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19826127Mobile](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19826127Mobile)
phone use and risk of tumors: a meta-analysis. J Clin Oncol. 2009 Nov
20;27(33):5565-72. doi: 10.1200/JCO.2008.21.6366. Epub 2009 Oct 13.

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18175330](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18175330)
Bacterial response to the exposure of 50 Hz electromagnetic fields.
Bioelectromagnetics. 2008 May;29(4):302-11. doi: 10.1002/bem.20391.

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21401315](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21401315)
Effect of extremely low frequency electromagnetic fields on growth rate and
morphology of bacteria. Int J Radiat Biol. 2011 Dec;87(12):1155-61. doi:
10.3109/09553002.2011.560992. Epub 2011 Mar 14.

------
icebraining
Abstract of the study:
[http://www.rbmojournal.com/article/S1472-6483%2815%2900300-4...](http://www.rbmojournal.com/article/S1472-6483%2815%2900300-4/abstract?cc=y=)

------
romankolpak
I'm a bit annoyed how the article doesn't mention anywhere if this effect is
permanent or not, which is a key to the level of severity of this problem.

Can a man stop carrying the phone in his pocket and have his sperm levels go
back to normal?

~~~
deathtrader666
Tim Ferris, in his book The Four Hour Body, managed to get his testosterone &
sperm levels back up after keeping away from his phone & cold showers.

~~~
koralatov
I've never read the book, but I'm curious: did he do both at once, or
independently then decide that both in combination gave the best result? If he
stayed off his phone and took cold showers, without testing them separately,
how do we know it wasn't the cold showers that gave the result, or the lack of
phone?

------
arihant
I'd be skeptical. From what I understand the damaging factor is WiFi here. But
when my phone is on WiFi it's usually on the table, at the charging dock and
occasionally in my hand.

When the phone is in my pants, it's almost never using WiFi as I'm usually
outside and on 3G/LTE.

I'd also look for a sample size significantly north of 100 before waking up
someone at FCC.

I'd also point out that it's probably more damaging being closer to router.
They noticed these men at a clinic. In public places, people gravitate towards
the router offering WiFi much more than they would at their homes or office.
So the proximity of router in this study compared to a nominal case is
something left unaccounted for.

~~~
Gnarl
Don't hold your breath for FCC "waking up", no matter the sample size or
strength of sci.evidence of hazard. Their Obama-appointed chief used to be #1
CTIA lobbyist. For example: [http://microwavenews.com/news-center/cell-phone-
carriers-fcc...](http://microwavenews.com/news-center/cell-phone-carriers-fcc-
cozy)

------
gus_massa
For reference, this sentence is in the abstract:

> _Talking for ≥1 h /day and during device charging were associated with
> higher rates of abnormal semen concentration (60.9% versus 35.7%, P < 0.04
> and 66.7% versus 35.6%, P < 0.02, respectively)._

The problem is that if you make a survey with too many questions, it increase
the probability of finding an spurious correlation with a low p. Obligatory
xkcd: [https://xkcd.com/882/](https://xkcd.com/882/)

Previous discussion of the original article:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11033516](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11033516)
(143 points, 17 days ago, 86 comments)

I´ll copy partially two comments cherrypicked from that thread:

From evils
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11033918](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11033918)

> _If I interpret the abstract correctly, the change in sperm they observed
> was only correlated to talking on a cell phone whilst charging it (that is,
> holding it next to your head), where keeping it right next to the groin did
> not show any significant influence?_

> _That doesn 't sound like a plausible outcome of radiation having any
> influence._

From cozzyd
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11036852](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11036852)

> _I think you can pretty much reproduce their study from the percentages with
> the following table (they claim 26 of the 106 did not meet study eligibility
> criteria, but the total seems to be 79? but then the total isn 't consistent
> between the two categories; I didn't read carefully enough to see if the
> discrepancy is explained)_

> _It 's interesting to note that they actually collected more data than < 1h
> and >1h (they more finely categorized it as 0-30, 30-60, 60-120 and 120+).
> The freedom to choose the boundary there should count against the p-value._

> _Of course, it would be nice if they treated hours talking on phone as a
> continuous variable instead of a discrete <1h and >1h. With the freedom to
> set that boundary (if they had that), it would reduce the associated
> p-value._

~~~
ekianjo
Effectively they need to reduce the p value for significant threshold to
refuce the risk of random associations. Its still very rarely done these days.

------
asgfoi
Correlation without causation?

What if people that don't keep the phone in their pants life a different
lifestyle that is different enough to cause the observed discrepancy.

~~~
tibarun
You took the words right out of my keyboard. :D

------
s_q_b
If this effect exists, it's probably due to the temperature rather than any
ionizing radiation.

Evolution goes so far as to keep its most important reproductive organ
_outside_ the protection of the body in order to keep them cool.

I can't imagine heating them up is a very good idea, either with a cellphone
or a laptop.

~~~
RLN
The article mentions that there seems to be an effect even if the phone is
kept somewhere like a bedside table. Which would seem to indicate it is not
only heat. It doesn't really go into much detail about the cause though.

I'm waiting for someone to start selling tin foil lined pants.

~~~
pervycreeper
>there seems to be an effect even if the phone is kept somewhere like a
bedside table. Which would seem to indicate it is not only heat

It seems to indicate that there is something wrong with this study.

------
swiley
Most HAMs know about the dangers of microwave exposure. If it really is an
issue I'd expect vision problems first since your eyes are most sensitive.

------
pmontra
If it has something to do with wavelengths, some 3g frequencies are close to
WiFi. A tablet on somebody's lap for three hours while watching tv should be
as bad as three hours of a phone in the pocket.

