
Facebook says Apple blocked it from informing about App Store 30% fee - cyrksoft
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/facebook-says-apple-blocked-it-from-informing-about-app-store-30-fee-2020-08-28#:~:text=Facebook%20Says%20Apple%20Blocked%20It%20From%20Informing%20About%20App%20Store%2030%25%20Fee,-Contributor&text=Facebook%20(NASDAQ%3A%20FB)%20is,to%20impart%20to%20its%20users.&text=According%20to%20Facebook%2C%20it%20asked,Image%20source%3A%20Getty%20Images.
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plusCubed
Previous discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24301332](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24301332)

~~~
hkai
I think the media are trolling Facebook now by reprinting the same story every
day.

The Streisand effect of sorts.

~~~
stunt
Or it might be Facebook trying to keep the Apple tax news longer in the
headlines. (I'm just speculating)

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dang
All: These $BigCo vs. $BigCo threads are getting increasingly repetitive and
nasty. Please don't post like that. The HN guidelines ask you not to, and
every such post degrades this place for future discussion. We're trying to
stave off the well-known internet phenomenon in which the site becomes nothing
but repetition and anger, and the best users all leave. We want _curious_
conversation here, so if you have a substantive point to make, please make it
thoughtfully, and if you don't, please don't comment until you do.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

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nevir
Back in the day, Apple simultaneously:

* wanted a 30% cut on all Kindle book sales (sold via iOS)

* had negotiated with most major book publishers that any book distributer (aka Amazon, Apple, B&N, etc) must sell their books at exactly a 30% markup.

\---

Also, we had built a native store experience for the Kindle app before
launching it.

Yet, after submitting to Apple (and not hearing anything back for weeks),
Apple announced their _intent_ to roll out in-app purchasing many months later

They also immediately blocked our submission and forced us to take out all
references to the native store or even linking to the web store.

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chj
Why we didn't hear anything about it at the time?

~~~
nevir
Amazon didn't want to blow up the relationship.

Though, Apple did eventually get taken to court for the book publisher pricing
agreements:

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc).

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kartayyar
Would you be okay with if a web based company, say Google:

1) Delisted you if you didn't support their payment option. 2) Blocked any
content that tried to criticize it. 3) Forced you to support their login as an
option, and also didn't place it as the first option on the list.

Then why are we okay with someone trying to do this for the mobile internet?

Apple treats apps like they own the phone. My own mental model is it's my
phone, and apps are an extension of the mobile internet.

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satya71
I feel the text might have been better if they said "the business will receive
70%, Facebook doesn't take a cut"

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hitekker
As a donator, I’d be alarmed if a company tried to hide a 30% surcharge on my
bill.

Not specifying the line item is just plain sketchy.

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Thorrez
It's not a surcharge on your bill. That's when you have to pay 30% more than
the main price. This is you paying the main price, but the organization you
(likely) want to support is only getting 30%.

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unwind
70%, Apple takes 30%.

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Thorrez
Oops, yeah, that was a dumb mistake.

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rosstex
FB: Apple blocked us from warning small businesses that 30% of their revenue
on Facebook goes to Apple. Fuck Apple.

Also FB: We're a multi-billion dollar company but we can't cover the 30%
ourselves because fuck Apple.

Also also FB: Apple warned users that Facebook tracks them which hurts
advertisers because users think tracking is awful. Fuck Apple.

~~~
Thorrez
> FB: Apple blocked us from warning small businesses that 30% of their revenue
> on Facebook goes to Apple.

Was FB trying to warn small businesses? I read the article as FB trying to
warning users making a purchase, not small businesses organizing an event.

> Also FB: We're a multi-billion dollar company but we can't cover the 30%
> ourselves because fuck Apple.

You think it's reasonable for FB to lose $.30 on every dollar that passes
through? That's not a sustainable model.

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colechristensen
A 30% cut isn’t really out of line with the markup most stores or distributors
put on nearly everything you buy, nor are secret business details.

I’m not trying to judge right or wrong, but hoping to point out a store taking
that cut is the standard not the exception.

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IshKebab
That isn't really the issue. The issue is that you _have_ to use Apple's
store. There's no alternative.

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colechristensen
You don’t have to use an iPhone and your product doesn’t have to run on one.
In order to prove laws have been broken you have to prove that there is a
higher issue than just lack of choice on the platform, if “that isn’t really
the issue” then there isn’t any issue, legally.

If you want there to be something illegal about the lack of choice itself you
have to think very long and hard about how you want to correct it with
legislation, which would not be an easy thing to do right.

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flcl42
This situation is very good for the first start-up that will offer a website
that works like an application store and provides crossplatform games/apps
etc. along with a good SDK. Time for the web to neutralize the old monopolies

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WrtCdEvrydy
Is this the end of Apple? Will I actually switch mobile platforms from Android
because third party stores are now available? Tune in next time on "2020: The
Year Monopolies get questioned"

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kabacha
As mobile gamer Android has been the only option for the longest time already.
There's just too much geolocking as the strongest mobile games come from Asia.
If someone is interested in exploring this more check out Qoo app store.

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IdontRememberIt
All utilies (Electricity, water, phone, etc.) should ask their commercial
customers a 30% cut because they build and provide an ecosystem that is
mandatory for them to exist.

Going a little further and what if MasterCard and Visa requested a 30% cut to
apple. They should also ban Apple from CC acquiring if they make this public.

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hpen
So what percent DO you guys think is fair?

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paxys
They can take whatever percent they want while also letting developers use
alternate payment processors.

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thothamon
Or even better, allowing users to opt to install apps from other app stores.

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dwaite
Or even better, allowing people to buy other phones

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thothamon
The arguments are well-repeated by now, but your comment is analogous to
saying if I buy a Ford, I can only fill it with Ford gas. It's OK to have laws
that prevent and forbid that because it's not good for the people.

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shubhamjain
So Apple wants a 30% cut on the money that could easily go to small business
owners and artists. A $2T company that makes tens of billions in profit every
year can't help being as extractive as it can in the middle of pandemic when
everyone is struggling.

How can anyone be okay with this blatant abuse of power? How does it matter if
the event is online or offline. If it's happening on a Zoom call or in a
coffee shop. Apple isn't just harming big companies like Fortnite, it's
harming individual creators. If this isn't case for anti-trust, I don't know
what is.

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abjgwts
Abuse of power? They have guidelines every developer must follow. Give one a
break, what about the rest?

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dang
Please don't post unsubstantive and/or flamewar style comments to HN. These
threads are getting exceedingly repetitive. They're also getting nastier. We
don't want those qualities here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
abjgwts
I’m being downvoted flagged and accused of “flamewar“ for simply saying that
Apple has a set of rules developers must follow and they can’t make exceptions
otherwise where would it end?

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dang
Actually I think I misread your comment. I thought "Give one a break" was
snark, but you were talking about developers. Sorry!

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abjgwts
Ah I can see that now :)

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etimberg
It’s almost like Apple are trying to become the villain.

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sidibe
Now that everyone has smart phones and phone lifetimes seem to be growing not
shrinking (good job Apple) the only way for them to grow their revenue is
raising the price of phones (which they've slowed down on) or "services" which
are essentially milking everyone using their platform.

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baddox
They’re not raising any prices on services that I’m aware of. Haven’t these
policies and fees been in place for a long time?

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matthewdgreen
Apple’s service revenue just reached an all-time high.
[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.statista.com/chart/amp/1462...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.statista.com/chart/amp/14629/apple-
services-revenue/)

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ocdtrekkie
This is really why the law should come down like a ton of bricks on Apple.
They aren't just bleeding everyone dry, they're also trying to prevent people
from realizing Apple is doing it.

~~~
olliej
FB, etc get the use of Apple's infrastructure, they get the benefits of apple
providing updates to hardware for 5 years without charging consumers.

That shit costs money, whether it costs 30% I don't know, but given that seems
to be in the order of the charges of every other store (what % of sale price
do companies get on retail sales?).

The problem here is a bunch of companies have decided that they want special
rules for themselves that don't include paying for services that they benefit
from.

Any iOS device apple sells has 5 _years_ of ongoing costs - software support,
service upkeep, etc.

Google's store doesn't have the update and software maintenance costs, and the
actual hardware sellers have demonstrate no interest in taking them on, so
it's clearly not free. In fact google charges 30% on everything as well, but
also makes money from all of the surveillance they have on the platform (after
all, spying is how google makes its money).

Put very simply. Apple makes a profit from a sale of hardware when the user
buys a new device. That's it. They continue to support that hardware for 5
years.

Google makes profit from every android device as long as that device is being
used. If you buy a second hand android device then that device continues to
generate revenue for google.

Despite this google charges the same commission/rent as apple.

~~~
justapassenger
> FB, etc get the use of Apple's infrastructure, they get the benefits of
> apple providing updates to hardware for 5 years without charging consumers.
> > That shit costs money

Exactly. That shit costs money. And by that I mean iPhone. People pay $1000
dollars for that. It’s not a freemium game where transactions on the platform
support the product. It’s one of the most expensive phones on the market, and
long term update support is part of why their prices are so high.

~~~
olliej
You mean like the $1000 android phones?

All the reporting I've ever said that it isn't apple's flagship phones that
are most popular, it's the lower priced ones which are in the $300 range.

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eanzenberg
Interesting how every big dog is attacking Apple as they continue to be the
lone-wolf in enabling privacy and a secure platform for their users. Apple
users are mostly computer illiterate because its Apple’s mission statement to
enable computing for everyone. Because of their ease of use, they are now
targeted to open up their platform in ways that will jeopardize both their
increasing user-privacy and user-security.

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kfichter
Seems like a surprisingly lazy political play from Facebook.

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sigzero
Exactly. I actually do not believe FB on this.

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polotics
Do you mean to say Apple is not taking 30% and Apple is not admitting this is
an unacceptably high fee by trying to prevent FB from informing its users
about it?

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seasoup
Was Facebook blocked from informing people about the Facebook 70% fee?

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Thorrez
Facebook's fee is 0%.

[https://www.facebook.com/business/help/274870883877590](https://www.facebook.com/business/help/274870883877590)

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skc
If Facebook squares off against Apple in a PR war they'll lose every time.

Should have kept this in the boardroom.

