

Vim and I and what my ideal Editor would look like - bitboxer
http://bitboxer.de/2010/08/07/vim-and-i/

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RiderOfGiraffes
I'm a bit confused about some of the things he says are missing.

* _Command line mode to open/edit files without touching the mouse_

Is this from inside the editor? What's wrong with ":e <filename>" ?? If it's
from outside the editor it's an OS issue. What am I missing?

* _Good default shortcuts for copy and paste and other standard operations_

I can't talk to the defaults, there there are half a dozen ways of picking up
one piece of text and putting it somewhere else. If it's a single line you're
interesting in, for example, then just "yy" will copy it, search or move to
your new location, then either "P" or "p" depending on whether you want it
before or after.

* _Easy way to record and replay macros_

What's wrong with the "q" command?

It sounds like he hasn't yet really found half the things vim does. I fully
agree that it takes a long time to become a vim master, and the commands
require study - they aren't "discoverable," but it sounds like he just needs
to pick one of his gripes and figure out how to solve it. Then move on to
another.

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bitboxer
Sorry, that sentence was wrong. I corrected it. The list is not a list of
missing things. It is a list of things I want in my ideal editor.

And to copy and paste: yy and P are not what someone would expect when
starting a text editor. Shift+Cursor to select text, Cmd+c/Cmd+p to
copy/paste, Cmd/z to undo. Those are the system defaults on my Mac and my
editor should use the same keyboard shortcuts.

~~~
RiderOfGiraffes
* _Sorry, that sentence was wrong. I corrected it. The list is not a list of missing things. It is a list of things I want in my ideal editor._

Oh. OK.

* _And to copy and paste: yy and P are not what someone would expect when starting a text editor. Shift+Cursor to select text, Cmd+c/Cmd+p to copy/paste, Cmd/z to undo. Those are the system defaults on my Mac and my editor should use the same keyboard shortcuts._

Hmm. Well, I'm not really trying to defend vim - I have no stake in it - but
the key sequences you describe are not what I would expect as defaults. Not
least, I don't think anyone who comes to vim for the first time would expect
h, j, k, and l for movement, or their upper-case friends, or key sequences
like e, b, _etc._

The key on vim are different. If you want to set up defaults to match what
you've used in the past, and what you think people will expect, then you can.

I personally find the key sequences you describe for cutting and pasting
enormously slower in bulk that the ones I use in vim. They are what people
have become accustomed to in other editors, but that doesn't mean they're
faster or more efficient.

There is a trade-off. We actively prevent people from overly customising their
editors because we have less time hacking out code than we have collaborating.
We lose in straight efficiency of writing code, but we gain in being able to
sit at any console and work immediately.

Recognising that there's a trade-off is most of the battle. Deciding where to
draw the line isn't easy, but is the minor part once you know there's a line
to draw.

And vim isn't really a "text editor". "Word" is a text editor. "vim" is a tool
for producing code. Its interface is occasionally user-hostile and is
completely undiscoverable. If you want something "more standard" and "more
discoverable" then it's not vim.

On that we no doubt agree.

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crazydiamond
What you expect as defaults can be quite subjective.

Having worked on Vi/vim for over 20 years on a variety of systems, I actually
expect _other_ apps to behave like vim. I too have used a Mac for over 10
years but use vimperator on my FF browser, use file managers and other apps
that allow for hjkl and other vi-ish strokes.

I am not sure the defaults you mention for C&P and Undo were around when Vi
was written. So expecting Vi to behave as a Mac app may not be very fair. I've
tried MacVim, but i prefer using Vim inside a Terminal in Screen.

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parbo
So, his ideal editor is Emacs with CUA-mode?

~~~
bitboxer
I tried Emacs last year. And yes, with CUA mode. And I didn't like it. MacVim
feels a lot better and more natural to me. Even with the copy and paste
problem.

