
SimpleCitizen (YC S16) Is TurboTax for Immigration - stvnchn
http://themacro.com/articles/2016/06/simplecitizen/
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sandworm101
So long as all the various agencies still demand paper documents, nobody can
ever claim to be "turbotax" for immigration. This is slightly faster/cheaper,
but is nowhere near the speed to justify that analogy.

Question: Who actually submits the documents? The 'How it works' is not clear.

"The application, upon completion, is sent to a SimpleCitizen-approved
immigration lawyer for review to ensure users have the best application
possible." ...But then what?

One of the reasons you hire a lawyer is so that lawyer can stand in for you.
Part of that is that they can submit documents and requests on your behalf.
Does SimpleCitizen seek power of attorney from customers? That would open a
nest of licensing issues. Note the careful language. Are these "review"
lawyers giving advice or not?

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scta
My spouse and I used it recently. It's actually MUCH, MUCH faster and far less
overwhelming than filling out all of the paper documents. You answer the
questions, it puts all of your data into the right places on the forms. A
lawyer looks it over to be sure there are no errors and that you're not
missing any information (the forms are in no way self-explanatory) - for
example, for us they caught a question that we had interpreted in a different
way and allowed us to correct it to the right interpretation and relevant
documentation. After that, they print, assemble and mail you the (hundreds of
pages) packet, so all you have to do is check it over, sign it, attach the
filing fees, and mail it off.

No power of attorney, no standing in for you, just a guide for a very
complicated process. From what we've seen, it's generally intended for people
who would otherwise DIY the process, but want a little more peace of mind that
they're doing it right. It's not really meant for those with complex
situations that need a lawyer.

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sandworm101
>> ... but want a little more peace of mind that they're doing it right.

That;s the danger. If they are giving advice that results in you submitting
different answers that you otherwise would have, they are boarding on giving
legal advice. It's all well and good when things work out, but when that
advice goes wrong it can be very very bad for the client. That's why lawyers
are licensed. These people are also handling lots of personal information that
I hope would be covered by attorney-client privilege, but only if they are
lawyers.

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auston
My wife also used SimpleCitizen, you can pay for a lawyer to green-light your
paperwork before you file it. That's what we did.

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cpursley
Very interesting. The Harvard grad we hired back when we started my wife's'
citizenship processes years ago was completely useless (late with paperwork,
no-show to interviews, etc); we ended up losing the money and filing
ourselves. This type of service is much needed. Applying for a permanent
residence is mostly just form filling and document collection anyways, but the
current processes is nearly unbearable. Does SimpleCitizen plan to stick
around all the way through naturalization? She's got her interview coming up
in July (woohoo!) and that process is a mess as well.

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ececconi
I used my the legal plan through my work to get a lawyer to apply for
citizenship (document review, walk through the process). She was awful, gave
me outdated forms, was condescending, and told me I needed documentation that
wasn't needed.

Long story short, I filed by myself and had a friend who is a lawyer review
certain parts of my application which I think needed a little extra review.

Something like this is awesome, I'll definitely bookmark it for if I have
friends or family going through the citizenship process.

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netule
I had a similar experience with an immigration lawyer. Our lawyer didn't help
much besides giving very broad directions, she gave us the wrong paperwork to
fill out, which my wife and I had to redo from scratch upon discovering the
problem. Then, on the day of the interview with USCIS (the "Are you really
married? Show me the proof" interview and evidence dump), our lawyer failed to
show up.

My wife and I did the interview on our own and thankfully got through it okay.
On our way out of the building, we ran into our lawyer, who claimed that she
got stuck in traffic and was very sorry. Needless to say, we fired her and we
have filed all of our paperwork ourselves since this incident.

For my naturalization process, I will consider any other option other than a
lawyer.

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pkaye
I suggest you join the message board at visajourney.com. I used that for my
own family. For some reason, it is not uncommon for family immigration lawyers
to screw up the cases a lot. I guess the good ones don't see much money in the
basic service of filling out forms.

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bradleyjg
I totally understand wanting to start with immediate relatives in terms of
petitioners for immigrant visas, but if you go to the website, click green
card, and then "Who can apply" it should make it clear that there are other
ways to get a green card, just not through SimpleCitizen (yet?).

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llukas
TurboTax for immigration? Are you going to lobby against simplifying
immigration procedures as well?

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HarryHirsch
This is what deskilling looks like. To deal with a simple immigration issue
(spouse visa, say) you used to hire a cheap immigration lawyer to make sure
all the boxes were ticked right. Now there's an app for that.

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sandworm101
They aren't giving you all the services of a lawyer. I think this is less de-
skilling than a more efficient delivery of barebones service.

They aren't going to tell you which immigration path is best, especially from
a tax perspective. That requires a proper discussion of you and your family's
assets and expected earnings. Nor will they be able to answer broader
questions such as whether your kids will or will not be subject to selective
service, either in the US or in your country of origin, something that doesn't
depend on citizenship alone.

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HarryHirsch
That's why I said "simple immigration issues". The garden-variety family-based
green card does not require much beyond filling the paperwork, and now the app
tells you what to fill in the boxes.

It used to be that paralegals would excerpt boxes of documents, now you have
OCR applications and text search - the low-level work is automated. It's
really the same with this service.

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brianbreslin
Love this idea. Anyone know what grants they received? In the funding sidebar
it said they've raised $1M in seed and grants, curious what the mix was.

In Miami we had a startup (founded in 2013) working on this which was recently
acquired ClearPath. [http://www.myclearpath.com/](http://www.myclearpath.com/)

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igorgue
Hah, doing the process myself right now and noticing they charge in Miami $500
just for consultation.

Great product idea, I'm trying it now!

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auston
@igorgue - it definitely works. Me & my spouse are very happy with the results
of the service thus far :)

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imaginenore
The thing about the US immigration is, any mistakes have major consequences,
often leading to deportation and/or multi-year bans for country entry.
TurboTax can make a mistake, and you will just pay whatever the IRS asks you
to. The INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service) is not that lenient.

That's why I think you have to be batshit crazy to use any software instead of
a cheap immigration lawyer.

(I personally went through the student visa -> greencard -> citizenship
process, so I know how it works)

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ececconi
They have a lawyer look over the documentation.

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kchoudhu
Marvelous. Does the lawyer also take professional responsibility when a
mistake is made?

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jessaustin
Is that something lawyers do? I've never met a lawyer like that. Next we'll
hear that physicians or architects stand behind their work...

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ConroyBumpus
Version 2.0 might need to include emigration, given the sheer number of "if X
is elected, I'm leaving the country" cases in popular culture.

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refurb
Help applying for citizenship? I'm sure there are some people in unique
situations where an expert could be helpful, but it seemed like a super simple
process when I went through it.

I could see needing help with the green card process, as it's more complex.
That said, I know plenty of people who have applied without any help and been
successful.

The one area where I've seen having an expert onboard help is around the
nuances of applying. Often the USCIS will publish memos that clarify
requirements (the instructions are often not that clear, especially if you
have an unique situation). However, that means your expert needs to keep up on
the latest on a day-to-day basis to be worth their cost.

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hackaflocka
Did you use a lawyer?

Is it true that there's a line in it where one is allowed to change one's
name?

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refurb
Nope, didn't use a lawyer, just filled out the forms. All the questions are
very straightforward. The most difficult part was listing all of the times you
left the US (when you left, when you returned, countries visited) in the last
5 years. If you didn't start tracking it when you got your green card I can
imagine it's a hell of a task (not every country stamps your passport). I
wrote all mine down over the years.

And yes, you can change your legal name through the citizenship process. You
just write down what you want your new name to be. However, I think if you do
that, you can't go through the regular citizenship ceremony, rather, you need
to have a judge do it. But don't quote me on that.

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Spoom
If you want to change your name, you have to go to a judicial ceremony, which
occurs (almost always) at a local federal courthouse, as opposed to an
administrative ceremony which may happen at a USCIS field office, school,
auditorium, etc.

FWIW, in Cleveland they _only_ offer judicial ceremonies at the federal
courthouse building. In places where administrative ceremonies are offered,
they are usually done at a higher frequency than judicial ceremonies, though
they still try to have at least one judicial ceremony per month.

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DennisAleynikov
My friend Ryan is building something for immigration as well! It was recently
featured on product hunt[1]. He's been working on it almost entirely solo,
building a web front-end as well as apps for iPhone and iPad to ease the O-1
application process.

[1]
[https://www.producthunt.com/tech/foundvisa](https://www.producthunt.com/tech/foundvisa)

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xiaoma
Ah... sadly it's only for immigration to the US.

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DorintheFlora
For now. Presumably, that could change at some point should they get traction.
You have to start somewhere. ("The faith of a mustard seed" and all that.)

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cperciva
I love the concept here, but I'm not sure that comparing something to TurboTax
is a particularly strong endorsement...

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creack
I like the idea, but the pricing is prohibitive. While it might be acceptable
for a green card application, the price is the same for the citizenship which
is much simpler

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ececconi
It's still much cheaper than having a Lawyer just look over the forms for you.

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creack
Except the $250 does not include the Lawyer, you need to pay extra for that.

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Spoom
I'm a fairly recently naturalized US citizen, having immigrated from Canada to
the US. I obtained a K-1 visa, adjusted status, removed conditions on my
residency, and finally naturalized earlier this year.

This can all be done without a lawyer. I never had one and filled out all the
forms myself.

A _careful_ reading of the instructions, which accompany _every_ USCIS form
(often in a separate PDF, but listed on the same page), will give you all the
information you need to know. If you need to know more information, you can
read the USCIS Policy Manual[1], which is conveniently available to the
public, and essentially tells you exactly the rules that a USCIS Immigration
Officer will use when adjudicating your case.

USCIS also has a pretty good map of where you can start the whole process
right on their home page[2], under Working in the US and Family.

That all said, my personal Swiss army knife of immigration information is and
has always been the great VisaJourney[3], which is a forum of folks going
through and who have gone through the immigration process helping each other
out. Mostly, I've found that they are good for disarming the natural
assumption I had that I was missing something in my applications, but their
guides are great as well (though mostly restating information available in the
USCIS form instructions).

I am... hesitant about this idea. It could be great for a lot of people!
However, I feel that if you're going to be navigating the sometimes
complicated waters of international immigration, you should understand what
you're doing. Attempting to immigrate to the US _without_ fully understanding
the relevant immigration laws may very easily subject you to bars to entry
that last more than a decade. These laws, in my opinion, are not hard to
understand, and are, again, readily available from USCIS[4], so it's not like
they're hidden. But saying the wrong thing, or misrepresenting yourself to an
immigration officer in the mistaken assumption that it will better your case,
can have disastrous consequences. Are you willing to bet the next decade or
more of your life on a single website that may not necessarily back up its
claims that your application is complete and without red flags?

Maybe I'm wrong and this startup will capture everything in an easy to
understand format. But the whole thing makes me leery. There are a huge number
of sites on the internet that purport to guarantee your application and give
you special considerations, while essentially just charging you extra for
forms you can download yourself for free. I've also heard many, many instances
of simple immigration cases being screwed up by lawyers omitting or being late
in submitting documentation for their clients, when by all rights they should
have been able to file the paperwork themselves and saved thousands of
dollars, but now have a visa / petition denial on their record that they will
have to overcome the next time they file!

Good luck to them though. I hope if they do find a way to simplify their
clients' applications, that USCIS can take a page from them and simplify the
process on their website.

1\.
[https://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual.html](https://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual.html)

2\. [https://www.uscis.gov/](https://www.uscis.gov/)

3\. [http://www.visajourney.com/](http://www.visajourney.com/)

4\. [https://www.uscis.gov/laws/immigration-and-nationality-
act](https://www.uscis.gov/laws/immigration-and-nationality-act)

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mastratton3
Awesome, I looked into immigration processes a couple years ago and it seemed
almost impossible.

