
Women Engineers on the Rampant Sexism of Silicon Valley - j_s
https://www.wired.com/video/2017/06/women-engineers-on-the-rampant-sexism-of-silicon-valley/
======
baron816
I have to ask this, but isn't it possible that the media's obsession with
sexism in the tech is backfiring? I think the best thing we could do to
alleviate sexism would be to bring more women into the industry. How do we
expect to do that if the impression they're getting is that it's filled with
mysogynistic pigs and creeps? I'm not saying this stuff should be swept under
the rug, but many tech companies have gone to great lengths to accommodate
women (as they should), much more than in other industries dominated by men.
If women continue to get the impression that the tech industry is hostile to
them, then they're going to continue to prefer (possibly less lucrative)
careers in other industries already dominated by women, which is just going to
make the problem worse.

I know it sucks that women sometimes have to deal with people telling them how
great it is that they're an engineer, or with people asking them about their
family's background (I'm joking, I know it can be worse than that), but the
tech industry can still be a really great place for women to work.

~~~
Mz
I try to talk about what can be done constructively to move things forward. I
try to blog about such issues in an even handed way. My blog gets very little
traffic.

Drama sells. You want traffic for your writing, getting up on your high horse
and looking for the dirt will get more eyeballs than writing something more
evenhanded.

Additionally, someone like you saying something that sounds very reasonable is
just another way to signal that women need to shut the fuck up. If you really
want to see progress on this issue without all the mudslinging, you could
proactively try to engage women, promote their work, etc. But most men won't
do that. I don't know why they won't do that. I have some guesses, but I don't
actually know why.

As someone who tries hard to talk in an evenhanded way about these issues and
tries hard to further a constructive path forward, I get really tired of
hearing the kinds of criticisms you are making because it reads to me as just
another means to preserve the status quo. You aren't likely to jump on the
news that I am doing something different and excitedly start tweeting my blog
posts or something.

So, since you probably won't do anything actually constructive, we all get to
continue to sit around listening to women whine about the status quo because
that is all that gets press right now. I wish to hell and back I knew how to
get people to actually pay attention to the constructive stuff. I don't. So I
muddle through as best I can, writing blog posts that hardly anyone reads and
fantasizing that some day it will make a difference.

Edit: To the joker asking for my blog URL, if you are serious, it is in my
profile.

~~~
kthejoker2
Your blog URL please? Thank you.

------
Kenji
_" There are these tiny microaggressions that happen when people know you're a
person of colour, they wanna know your origin, they wanna know your [...],
they wanna know a bunch of things about you that don't really matter when it
comes to work"_

Or maybe, you know, someone just tries to get to know their coworkers better
with small talk, because getting along with people, being friendly and knowing
a little bit about their background improves the interactions at work
dramatically. I'm not gonna lie, calling this a microaggression alienates me
deeply.

To be honest, I wouldn't hire someone who thinks they are being
'microaggressed on' when the most ordinary of conversations happen.

~~~
zorpner
You don't sound particularly interested in understanding the perspective of
others, but in the event that you are, this is a remarkably good analogy that
may help you understand the reality of the situation:
[http://ask.metafilter.com/149204/creepy-filter-Is-it-
normal-...](http://ask.metafilter.com/149204/creepy-filter-Is-it-normal-to-
become-this-distracted-from-seeing-an-attractive-person-in-public#2137452)

~~~
Kenji
I already know and read this link. That alone should prove that I am more than
equipped to participate in this discussion and willing to understand other
people's viewpoints. I regularly force myself to read opinions I strongly
disagree with. In this case, however, my disagreement remains firmly.

~~~
FussyZeus
Your continued use of the word disagreement betrays a fundamental
misunderstanding about the term "perspective." A Perspective is not an
arguable or comparable thing, it's how a person views the world through a lens
that is constructed from the sum of their lifetime of teachings, experiences
and personal biases. It is not something anyone else can 100% understand, and
therefore especially is not something that be compared between people, let
alone argued.

~~~
Freestyler_3
I disagree with Hitlers perspective on Jews, even if I don't understand it.

Of course one could come with arguments that weaken/counter my disagreement,
but I will still disagree.

If you see the world as good and I see it as evil, we have opposing
perspectives and I would say I disagree with you.

~~~
FussyZeus
Hitler's perspective on Jews is irrelevant and not really a topic of debate.
His actions in being the figurehead for those who orchestrated the holocaust
are objectively terrible, arguable and measurable.

I don't see the world as good, I see it as a collection of billions of people
who all see things slightly differently which is why I don't attempt to seek
truth in a viewpoint. There is truth in facts, truth in science, truth in that
which is measurable and objectively quantifiable. The rest is entirely open
for interpretation by everyone, and the best way to entire you have the most
complete interpretation is to get as many viewpoints from as large a variety
of people as possible, which is the fundamental idea behind diversifying, for
example, a marketing team. That way you don't do something stupid like use an
important, high ranking member of a Native American tribe as a football
mascot.

~~~
neotrope
By your definition, what Hitler did wasn't "wrong". Moral relativism is a
slippery slope.

~~~
FussyZeus
In my mind, you're free to think whatever you want, no one should ever be
punished for thought-crime. If you go your whole life thinking Jews are the
scum of the Earth that's your business, as long as you keep it in your own
head. If you speak those opinions and lose a job, well, that's the
consequences to those beliefs. If you act on those beliefs and kill people,
then you'll be tried and convicted of murder.

Beliefs, no matter how stupid and shitty, are not a crime.

~~~
Freestyler_3
This is what I agree with. And thought crime is exactly what the article is
insinuating.

------
tzs
> There are these tiny microaggressions that happen when people know you're a
> person of colour, they wanna know your origin, [...]

I ask white males such questions, and have been asked such questions as a
white male. In environments where a significant fraction of the people do not
come from there, asking where you come from is a normal ice breaker and
opening to get to know someone.

If I avoid such questions when someone happens to not be white, will I be
accused of racism? Someone could interpret that as me not wanting to get to
know non-white people.

~~~
apeace
The answer is to avoid such questions with everyone :)

This is a barrier I also had to cross as someone who is involved in a lot of
interviewing (software engineers). I used to always break the ice with things
like "Where ya from?" or "How long have you lived NYC?". To me it was natural
to ask that when first meeting someone.

But over time I realized it makes some people uncomfortable. For example,
someone with a thick accent (English is their second language) might take
"Where ya from" to mean, "I noticed your accent, where is it from?".

As innocent as my intentions may be, I now believe it's not appropriate to ask
questions like that during an interview process or at any time in the work
place. Talk about movies, the weather, programming languages. If someone
volunteers that type of information by all means engage with them.

And as an interview icebreaker just say, "It's so nice to meet you, we're glad
to have you here. Should we get started?". Another one I now use is, "So what
do you think of our office? Did you see all the snacks?".

~~~
Mythanar
Just wait a bit, and with the way things are going, "Did you see all the
snacks?" will be declared the thought crime against fat people.

I prefer using the same language in interviews as we do in office. If the
candidate gets offended, chances are, he would be offended on the first day on
the job; better weed those out early.

~~~
cholantesh
Good ol' slippery slope.

------
alexkadis
There's an accompanying article[1]. It's all incredibly moving. Erica Baker
said one of my favorite quotes from the video, "Everybody talks about
diversity and getting people in the door. We measure those numbers. We don't
really talk much about the inclusion part. What are you doing to make sure
that everybody is included and feels safe and supported and valued in your
organization?"

[1]: [https://www.wired.com/2017/06/women-engineers-rampant-
sexism...](https://www.wired.com/2017/06/women-engineers-rampant-sexism-
silicon-valley/)

~~~
Freestyler_3
I hear a lot of talks about people just being hired for diversity, that's not
helping. (the talk and the action)

