
Depression as hard on the heart as obesity and cholesterol - devinp
http://sciencebulletin.org/archives/9394.html
======
Zazezizozuzy
I would be interested in knowing what 'hard on the heart' means. They mention
it can lead to cardiovascular disease, but I understand that to be kind of a
vague term.

I am a fairly healthy young guy and I have extremely high blood pressure.
Every doctor I've seen has been unable to identify a cause through testing,
dietary changes, fluctuation of exercise, etc. When I was younger, I was
diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and have had major bouts of depression my
whole life. More so since getting a job as a developer. Any data connecting
the depression and HBP would be really helpful.

~~~
beaner
I don't have a medical explanation for you, but I can tell you what it feels
like. I've experienced many pangs of deep loneliness at times when I feel like
I'm by myself and should be out being social. It feels like a tug on your
chest. Like there's a void and some gravity is sucking things down into it.
Or, I know it sounds corny, but something heavy sitting on your heart while
you simultaneously experience anxiety.

When I am deeply lonely like this, in the moment, not just as a general idea,
I definitely do feel it as a physical thing. I don't know if it's the same as
what they're talking about here, but it seems reasonable that loneliness could
be a type of depression, and I strongly believe that regularly experiencing
the type of physical feeling described above could do damage to you.

~~~
TheOneTrueKyle
I have had this feeling in my chest for over a decade now.

~~~
Jarwain
Do you continue to have the feeling despite attempts to go out and be social?

~~~
TheOneTrueKyle
Yes, this feeling is relatively constant in my life. There are times where it
is more noticeable though. Usually getting lost in the moment is the best way,
but that is hard to do on purpose

~~~
Jarwain
I don't know if I can relate. When it really bothers me, I try to do something
about it, go out, have fun. Surround myself with people whose company I enjoy.

Sometimes the feeling persists. Its usually when I try the above and fail
though. When its not satisfying, when the people I'm with are just kinda
whatever. -shrugs-

------
astrodev
From the paper (DEEX - "Depressed mood and exhaustion"):

"Nonetheless, adding DEEX to a risk score based on classical risk factors
resulted in only nonsignificant improvement of mortality risk prediction."

Regarding the causal relationship:

"Although not a proof of causality, in general, depressed subjects are more
likely to cluster self-harming lifestyle behaviors and may be less likely to
adhere to prescribed medication."

To put things in context it is also worth noting that, except in old age, a
big increase in the risk of death at any given point of time translates into a
very small reduction in life expectancy. See for example
[http://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/2012/11/10/mortality-a...](http://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/2012/11/10/mortality-
and-life-expectancy/)

------
tominous
Recent research suggests that chronic inflammation may cause depression [1].
Therefore the root cause may be inflammation, leading to both depression and
heart disease. (Of course biology is never that simple and there are probably
loops and feedbacks.)

[1] Summary: [http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/05/chronic-
psychitis/](http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/05/chronic-psychitis/)

~~~
amelius
Also, high homocysteine _may_ lead to depression, [1], and is linked to
cardiovascular disease, [2].

[1]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17541043](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17541043)

[2]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4326479/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4326479/)

------
flukus
Considering how often depression leads to obesity I wonder how many are
getting a double wammy?

~~~
ekun
This should be controlled for.

~~~
flukus
I assumed it was in the study, but in real life there would be many suffering
the negatives of both.

------
eplanit
That's exactly what my cardiologist explained to me after my heart attack
(myocardial infarction) -- that cholesterol and obesity account (in his
anecdotal way of speaking) for only half of cases. I was in great shape at the
time (hiked > 4 miles in hills every day), but very stressed and depressed.

~~~
astrodev
Actually, the paper this article is based on suggests the opposite:

"Only a minority of 5.6% [of those who later experienced a lethal CVD event]
were free of any risk factor. This challenges claims that CVD events commonly
occur in persons who have not been exposed to a major risk factor." (where the
risk factors include high cholesterol, obesity, hypertension, smoking and
diabetes)

------
mtw
What most people forget is that mental diseases are associated with physical
diseases. Depression is positively associated with Type 2 diabetes, oral
cancer, psoriasis, arthritis [1]. Stress is positively associated with poor
sleep. Anxiety is positively associated with coronary heart disease. When you
are in poor mental health (stress, anxiety, depression), it will impact your
heart, digestive system and immune system, and vice-versa.

Source [1]:
[http://outcomereference.com/outcomes/5-Depression](http://outcomereference.com/outcomes/5-Depression)

------
RUG3Y
As a chronically depressed person, I guess I'm in trouble.

~~~
hive_mind
Exercise, sleep, meditation, diet, hobbies.

~~~
TheOneTrueKyle
If only it was that easy

~~~
dTal
No one said it was easy. But, sometimes - if you're not _too_ depressed - if
you manage enough of these enough of the time (possibly with the help of a
good friend nagging you) you can get enough of a feedback loop going to self-
sustain and maintain a healthy living pattern long enough to sink in.

~~~
TheOneTrueKyle
Sometimes sure. I agree, these healthy habits are prerequisites when you find
yourself more depressed than usual.

But sometimes these healthy habits aren't going to be enough.

------
ekianjo
I thought cholesterol was said not to be a cause of heart disease after all?

~~~
eplanit
Some study from last year (I don't have the citation) stated that _ingesting_
cholesterol (i.e. eggs) does not lead to plaque buildup. It's eating saturated
fats that cause the body to produce cholesterol that then builds up in the
arteries. tl;dr worry about the bacon, not the eggs.

~~~
vixen99
On the other hand:

'Cambridge University academics have looked over previous studies on saturated
fat and discovered there is no link to heart disease '

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/sarah-
knapton/1070397...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/sarah-
knapton/10703970/No-link-found-between-saturated-fat-and-heart-disease.html)

In view of the fate of several consensus views in the past (especially on the
subject of nutrition) where they have been shown to be wrong, the tough
conclusion is that one has to decide for oneself by exploring the peer-
reviewed literature.

------
Thriptic
Depression also has been linked to worse medication adherence following
cardiac incidents which could have an impact on mortality. Check out the
SADHART trial.

------
blbear
Interesting observation, although there's also a lot of studies published that
have shown a strong correlation between depression and obesity, which in turn
is strongly linked to heart disease. I wonder if the researchers have
controlled for this confounding factor somehow? (haven't had time to read the
actual research paper yet)

------
LennyHenrysNuts
I'm fucked then. I eat shit and I'm depressed!

~~~
mtw
Eat better, exercise, go out

~~~
chckn
... and stop drinking any alcohol. That has really solved my depression
problems. A few drinks and the next day I feel at least a little sad and
anxious.

------
tu7001
How high cholesterol level is hard for my heart?

~~~
keymone
a case of conflation of lipids with all the subclasses of lipoproteins into
single term "cholesterol"

------
benevol
Especially if your government doesn't give you access to a therapist b/c your
health care system is a bad joke or if you don't want to suffer side-effects
due to anti-depressants, then do :

1\. Mindful meditation [free] -> Daily practice (30+ minutes)

John Kabat-Zinn [0] masters the link between science and meditation and has
published very valuable books (including guided/audio meditation exercises)
[1]. There are a couple of scientific studies which prove effectiveness [2]
[3].

2\. LSD [$5-10/dose + $25/multi-use test kit] -> One-time experience (every 6
months max.)

LSD however requires one to literally read/understand/know everything about
the substance before applying it (minimum literature: "The psychedelic
explorer's guide" by Fadiman). Also, order a test kit and test before you
ingest. Certain "edge cases"/people should not try it and educating yourself
about everything will allow you to decide if it's a good idea in your case or
not. In addition, you may be able to access your spiritual dimension, which
increases quality of life even further (it is less immediate with meditation).

You may combine micro-dosing LSD with meditation for accessing the meditative
state easier (it's quite a challenge for depressed people).

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Kabat-
Zinn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Kabat-Zinn)

[1]
[https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4180277/Mindful_Way_Through...](https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4180277/Mindful_Way_Through_Depression_-
_Guided_Meditation_Practices)

[2] [http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks-
to...](http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks-to-a-better-
brain)

[3] [http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9214697/meditation-brain-
neuros...](http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9214697/meditation-brain-neuroscience)

~~~
Theodores
At the moment I am trying to help a workmate hang in there and get life back
on track after a period of intense depression. I am not going to advise her to
take LSD or to meditate, even if 'hipster' style with this 'mindful' nonsense.

Normal people who have happy, functional lives do not meditate or take micro
doses of LSD.

With all drugs the underlying condition is important, with hallucinogenic
substances that usually means the base mood - happy or sad - gets amplified.
That means the risk of a bad trip. My workmate has tried coping with 'party
drugs' but the comedown is horrible - more depression.

I am doing well with my workmate, we do things like eating, walking, cycling
and talking, i.e. doing stuff. For a laugh though I might tell her she needs
LSD and minfulness bullshit.

~~~
namaemuta
> Normal people who have happy, functional lives do not meditate or take micro
> doses of LSD.

Normal people who don't have a cold don't need to take cough syrup.

It's precisely because being depressed is an atypical state that you need to
take special approaches to deal with it.

~~~
Theodores
As if cough syrup works anyway - any comparison between getting a cold virus
and being depressed is a bit lame. Very poor.

~~~
namaemuta
Normal people who aren't ill don't need special treatments. Is it clearer now?

~~~
Theodores
Well... I believe depression is actually quite normal, everyone experiences
depression (not to confused with sadness) at some stage or other.

What is not normal is sitting in front of some app, taking micro doses of LSD
and 'meditating' in some stereotyped new-age fake-hipster-American way.

For normal depression for normal people it is possible to meditate without the
LSD and the feigned posture. What you do is you go outside the front door and
walk, ride a bike, go for a jog or go for a swim. Sure these normal activities
do not have the pretence of the believe system that goes with mindful-LSD-
taking but, for normal people with normal depression (including the suicidal
thoughts), normal healthy activities can help too, e.g. a gentle stroll with
no funny meds needed.

~~~
rybosome
That you describe mindfulness meditation as "new-age" suggests to me that you
aren't familiar with it, and are dismissing it out of hand rather than
thoughtfully. The new-age movement has a spiritual element to it, mindfulness
meditation does not. The complete, entire point of mindfulness meditation is
learning to be present and aware of the workings of your mind. Real-time self
awareness is not "new-age fake hipster", it's a valuable skill, particularly
for depressed people. Having this improved self awareness can include
recognizing when you become relatively more or less sad, which can lead you
towards or away from various situations and behaviors.

I think you're reacting negatively because of the commenter's association with
LSD. That's not representative of the mindfulness practice in general, so if
that feels a bit too "Berkeley" for you then don't throw away the baby with
the bath water. Personally, I've never tried LSD, and although I'm a bit
curious about it, I've read accounts of people being mentally crippled for
years by a bad trip - not worth the risk.

------
Applejinx
Well, shit. Bye, hackers ;P

------
ws_berkeley510
What is depression?

~~~
reddytowns
Morose music, waking up late, black clothes, lots of cigarettes and coffee,
etc.

------
wfunction
I read that as "Depression is as hard on the heart as it is on obesity and
cholesterol" and was confused for a moment...

------
umberway
My heart often tells me when something is amiss. For example, if I'm about to
buy excessive amounts of junk food and alcohol I sometimes feel a twinge
emanating from the chest region. I acknowledge and interpret this as my
brain's _anticipation_ of the price that will be paid.

But what if things have gone more badly wrong? If the heart seems to say one
thing whilst ideas (the ones I can name) say something else? One way to
resolve the conflict is simply to censor the bodily signals. (Fear can do this
sort of thing.)

Yet there are physiological consequences, because the brain has two roles: (1)
to run the mind, (2) to regulate the body. And withdrawing attention from
bodily signals has consequences for health, I guess due to a concomitant
weakening of the controlling function.

