
I Want To Unsubscribe, Not "Manage My Preferences" - gsaines
http://www.georgesaines.com/?p=484
======
murz
I think requiring a log-in is actually against the CAN-SPAM regulations.

FTC.gov's web site states: "an e-mail recipient cannot be required to pay a
fee, provide information other than his or her e-mail address and opt-out
preferences, or take any steps other than sending a reply e-mail message or
visiting a single Internet Web page to opt out of receiving future e-mail from
a sender"

[http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus61-can-spam-act-
complia...](http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus61-can-spam-act-compliance-
guide-business)

~~~
eli
It is definitely illegal to require a login. CAN-SPAM has many ( _many_ )
faults, but it is extremely explicit about there being no funny business in
the unsubscribe process.

Current FTC rules say that your unsubscribe link must either immediately
unsubscribe the user or lead to a page that (at most) asks for only your email
address and does not try to confuse or dissuade you.

If you're fluent in legalese, it's in the set of rules known as "CAN-SPAM
2008" <http://www.ftc.gov/os/2008/05/R411008frn.pdf>

~~~
pinko
What realistic recourse does anyone have when a sender violates this
requirement?

~~~
JoachimSchipper
Mark as spam in a big system (GMail, Hotmail, DCC, whatever). Seriously, it
doesn't take that many pissed GMail users to cause GMail to drop all of your
mail. This is one reason why outfits like MailChimp will kick you off if you
get "marked as spam" too often.

(You could argue that such mail isn't "real" spam; nonetheless, "mark as spam"
_is_ realistic.)

------
blackboxxx
When an email tries to be sneaky with the old "Manage my Preferences" trick, I
flag it as spam. They should know better.

BONUS: if anywhere in the email they mention the word "webinar", they're gone.

~~~
sorbus
Seconded. If I can't unsubscribe from an email with one click (at the very
most two), then I mark it as spam.

~~~
pbreit
Why do people mark non-spam as spam? Why do they boast about it?

~~~
raganwald
In what sense is an unsolicited and unwanted marketing email _not_ spam?

~~~
pbreit
They didn't say it was unsolicited or unwanted. They just said if they could
not unsubscribe in one or two clicks they'd mark it as spam, regardless if it
was spam.

Why the down vote?

~~~
sgk284
By clicking 'unsubscribe', the implied intent is that the email _is_ unwanted.
So I can either mark an email as 'unwanted' by clicking 'unsubscribe' or by
clicking 'report spam'. I'll always give the sender the benefit of the doubt
and try to unsubscribe, but if any action is required on my part other than
clicking the link, I take the path of least resistance and simply click
'report spam'. Either way, I'll stop getting those emails.

~~~
pbreit
But what if it's transactional or something you signed up for? Something
merely unwanted is not by definition spam.

------
dirtae
Absolutely agree. We (AnyLeaf) send a weekly email newsletter to our users,
with one-click unsubscribe. Companies that make unsubscribing difficult are
ruining it for everyone. Even though we are very clear about the fact that
we'll be sending email and make it simple to unsubscribe, we still get users
flagging our messages as spam. This seems to be largely because unsubscribing
from email newsletters has become so annoying that a significant fraction of
users will just mark a message as spam rather than figure it out, even if the
message is not truly spam.

It's hard to blame them, especially when huge senders like Target make it so
difficult to unsubscribe that the author of this blog post couldn't figure it
out:

[http://bigfatmarketingblog.com/2011/01/17/adventures-in-
emai...](http://bigfatmarketingblog.com/2011/01/17/adventures-in-email-
unsubscribing/)

It's a shame that RFC 2369, which provides a standard for unsubscribing from
mailing lists, has never been widely adopted.

<http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2369.txt>

~~~
aristus
I really wish Google or one of the big email providers would add an
unsubscribe button. It would try to do the right thing in the unsubscribe
flow, and apply a personal filter, but not penalize the sender.

~~~
rexf
Gmail has a prototype feature to unsubscribe you from e-mails:

[http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/unsubscribing-made-
eas...](http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/unsubscribing-made-easy.html)

------
gte910h
I report them to the FTC and tell them that I did if require anything more
than a click or two and send them this link:

[http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus61-can-spam-act-
complia...](http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus61-can-spam-act-compliance-
guide-business)

File a complaint here: <https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/>

------
wccrawford
If I didn't opt-in and they send me a message that I have to log in to opt-
out, I mark it as spam. Sometimes I'll also log in and remove myself, but not
always. Depends on the company.

On the other hand, if there's a simple 1-click link, I will usually click it
and merely archive or delete the mail.

Webmasters: It's in your best interest to make it easy to unsubscribe. It only
makes people mad. It doesn't make them stay as customers.

~~~
youarecorrect
I agree, I am very liberal with the "mark as spam" button.

Even if I opt out and they say, "might take two weeks to propagate changes."

That's weird; it only took you two minutes to propagate changes enough to
_start_ sending mail.

If I am unable to opt out without logging in, or if I opt out and more come I
just mark it spam.

------
gasull
<http://www.otherinbox.com/> comes handy for part of this problem. One of the
default folders that OtherInBox creates in your Gmail account is an
OIB/Unsubscribe folder/label. Then you can label messages from meetup.com as
OIB/Unsubscribe, then all future messages from meetup.com will go there.

Unsubscribing from Meetup groups isn't an option if you want to subscribe to
their Google Calendar. And you might want to get some messages from Meetup but
not others (maybe you just want reminders for meetups), so labeling as spam is
not an option.

~~~
blakeperdue
After reading this I realized how many Meetup.com emails I receive. I've
previously tried to navigate meetup's account preferences to unsubscribe
without success. I was so annoyed I took the time to write them to tell them
to put a one-click unsub button in their emails.

I got a polite "thanks, but not doing that" response. I find it really
annoying that they can't or won't make it easy for their users to one-click
opt out of group emails. I'd rather drop the service than take the time to
figure out how to stop getting emails. Deleted my account just now.

~~~
blakeperdue
The response I got from Meetup.com is below. The key bit is "You'll want to
'Edit email settings' for each Meetup group that you've joined."

I'm in like 20+ groups; it makes unsubscribing a huge pain.

9/12/2010 I have a suggestion. I get many emails from meetup. I don't want to
get them anymore. I also don't want to have to go login, then go to a manage
notifications page and try to figure out how to stop getting email (which, btw
I have tried to do unsuccessfully).

Why don't you guys put one link at the bottom that says "Don't want to get
this type of notification in the future? click here to unsubscribe."

Boom, one click and I'm done. It make is much easier on your users.

-Blake

I'm sorry for the inconvenience! Currently there's no way to completely
eliminate the emails you get from your Meetup groups or your Organizers.
However, I took a look at the email you'd forwarded in, and that was an
Automated Meetup Reminder, which you can opt out of by going to your Email
Setting page for that group, here:

<http://www.awdg.org/settings/>

In general, if you're only interested in hearing from your Meetup group's
Organizer and about the Meetups on the calendar, turning off the email
discussion with your entire group will help reduce the amount of messages
you're receiving. To change your email settings within each group, go to:

<http://www.meetup.com/account/comm/>

You'll want to 'Edit email settings' for each Meetup group that you've joined.

Having more control over the emails you receive from your Meetup Group
Organizers is a great suggestion. We really appreciate your thoughts on this,
and your patience while we make changes and improvements around here. :)

If you've got any other questions, please let us know.

Sincerely,

Tamara Garvey Meetup Community Team Specialist Meetup HQ

~~~
jamesteow
"Having more control over the emails you receive from your Meetup Group
Organizers is a great suggestion. We really appreciate your thoughts on this,
and your patience while we make changes and improvements around here. :) "

AKA we're going to ignore you and throw a useless smilie face in a feeble
attempt to placate you.

------
gst
At least there is some (complicated) method to unsubscribe.

I try to unsubscribe from Amazon's affiliate spam newsletter for years now,
but it just doesn't work. I can toggle the "subscribe" box on the website as
many times as I want - no matter what the website displays, the mails just
continue to arrive in my inbox.

I've contacted the support numerous times now, but they either tell me that
"after unsubscribing it takes some time until you stop to receive the mails"
or that "we've unsubscribed you now manually". Of course this never worked.

So if anyone from Amazon is reading this: This concerns the German "Amazon
PartnerNet" affiliate program and the message category that I can't
unsubscribe is "Feedback zum Partnerprogramm". I'd happily send you my account
information if there's any chance of fixing this annoying bug.

~~~
bdonlan
With amazon, it's possible to have multiple accounts registered to the same
email (with different passwords). You might have unsubscribed on one account,
but not on another.

~~~
zecho
That may be, but Amazon has ridiculous options for turning off emails. For
example, if you're a member of Amazon Student or Amazon Moms (which includes a
limited version of Prime), you can't opt-out of emails about Student or Moms
without actually dropping the service.

~~~
madiator
"If you would like to stop receiving e-mail offers from Amazon Student, you
may cancel your Amazon Student membership here:<link>" : UNBELIEVABLE!

------
DanLivesHere
I use Mailchimp for <http://dlewis.net/nik> and all the emails I send have
both "unsubscribe from this list" and "update subscription preferences" on
every email. Clicking the former will unsubscribe you -- no log-in required.
(Comically, I once forwarded a copy to someone who clicked it, to see what
would happen, and blammo, I was unsubscribed from my own list.)

The second is used for changing your email address or your name. That's it.

As a _publisher_ , I actually prefer it this way. If you do not want to get my
emails, I don't want you getting them. I'm not writing for people who don't
want to read.

------
spullara
This word "spam", I do not think it means what you think it means.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(electronic)>

"Spam is the use of electronic messaging systems (including most broadcast
media, digital delivery systems) to send unsolicited bulk messages
indiscriminately"

It seems as though a lot of people on HN think that any email message they
didn't want to get at that moment is spam. Reminds me of the misunderstanding
of the work "hacker".

~~~
btilly
It sounds like most of the mail being complained about was not solicited and
was likely sent to many people. That makes it spam by your definition.

~~~
cdcarter
But it wasn't sent indiscriminately.

~~~
MatthewPhillips
Yes it is. The services collect email addresses and then send their spam to
all of them.

------
mmahemoff
I wrote up some ideas on best practices for unsubscription recently, after
trawling through my inbox to clear the clutter. [http://softwareas.com/best-
practices-for-mailing-list-unsubs...](http://softwareas.com/best-practices-
for-mailing-list-unsubscription)

If you're doing one-click unsubscribe, a smart practice is showing a message
with other ways to stay engaged, e.g. Twitter ... and providing a one-click
undo (ie re-subscribe).

------
palish
Whenever I sign up with a service, I try to use the "+" trick.

    
    
      foobar+linkedin@gmail.com
    

That way, if worse comes to worst, you can just block the whole destination
email address.

Sometimes this doesn't work, though, which is annoying.

~~~
baddox
Sadly, most developers use some sort of ridiculous email validation that
doesn't allow the plus sign.

Worse than that, I've encountered several sites and newsletters that allow the
plus sign when you sign up, but their unsubscribe URL breaks (presumably due
to some escaping/encoding mismatch), preventing you from unsubscribing.

~~~
HoLyVieR
I have seen sites like meetup.com that disallow the "+" sign for spam reason.
Instead of having proper spam detection and filtering they just added
arbitrary rules like that.

------
o1iver
The best solution I have found is just to use Gmail filters (if you are using
Gmail). I have about 20 emails a day that get labeled "useless" and are
immediately archived or deleted...

Plus: you can define pretty specific filters (incl. keyword based if you just
want to remove certain emails from a certain address/domain, for example
containing "upgrade", "marketing", "try", etc)

------
AD7863
I really do hate it when you have to 'manage your preferences' when you want
to stop receiving email more-often-than-not that you don't remember signing up
for.

What's more is, if you can somehow manage to remember your account details and
navigate the labyrinth of menus to get to where you want to be, you then have
to unsubscribe and believe it or not, some websites have even told me it could
take up to a week for the changes to take affect.

Ridiculous is the word the springs to mind.

Most recently though, I have started to mark emails which don't offer me a
one-click-unsubscribe as spam, that'll teach them.

------
gallerytungsten
I use a challenge-response system called Active Spam Killer.

<http://a-s-k.sourceforge.net/>

When some dastardly spammer adds me to their list, despite the challenge
message explicitly telling them not to, I then add them to my "blacklist" and
never hear from them again.

Note that you do have to be running your own mail server to get this system
working; and you have to edit the lists from the command line. Those
challenges aside, this software has eliminated vast quantities of spam and
unwanted list mailings for me.

~~~
tzs
What happens when you buy something from a site and they send your receipt
(and possibly a software key) by email?

Where I work we get enough mail bounces from customers whose mailboxes are
over quota, or who spelled their address wrong, and so on that challenges from
the few using C/R systems are lost in the noise. No one has time to go through
all of these, find the challenges, and jump through whatever hoops they want
to get the message through.

~~~
gallerytungsten
I use a gmail address for edge cases such as you mentioned. I also pre-
emptively add people to my "whitelist" so they don't have to confirm.

------
RobertKohr
I despise it when I try to unsubscribe and this comes up for me.

My simple response: click "spam" button in my email, thus decreasing their
deliverability.

If you send out newsletters or whatnot, be sure to make unsubscribe obvious
and single-click, otherwise you will face the ultimate in email marketing
payback... no one seeing your messages.

As someone who used to be heavy in email marketing, deliverability is the holy
grail, and it doesn't take too many times as marked as spam before you are
lost forever.

------
rvkennedy
Seconded: may I hereby propose a new standard for email, the "bite me" button?
Something to throw the entire company in question down the memory hole.

~~~
gsaines
That certainly would be satisfying. A few days ago I got a survey request from
a company I had recently ordered from and they were using the same old "manage
your preferences" link. I wished there was something I could do to let them
know how frustrated I was about getting that email and the fact they made me
work for 5 minutes to unsubscribe!

------
dendory
I never unsubscribe from lists. Any time I get an email from some new list
I've apparently been subscribed to, I add a new filter to automatically delete
any mail coming from that domain. I don't think my email is physically able to
receive any mail at all from facebook, google, yahoo, and most of the other
big domains out there, and I don't miss it at all.

~~~
jamesteow
Great idea. Going to do the same.

------
shabble
I can't remember the site off the top of my head, but something recently
wanted me to go through an entire sequence of 'exit interview' forms in order
to unsubscribe.

My response in the 'feedback' field was quite satisfying to write, but I doubt
it'll ever actually be looked at.

------
paulbjensen
I setup a mail filter to forward the email back to wherever it's sent,
multiple times, and delete that email from my inbox. I've generated email
threads from LoveFilm where they've had an entire conversation with
themselves, great stuff.

------
stretchwithme
The whole "unsubscribe" thing when you haven't subscribed to anything is a
lie.

------
Herring
This is why I love gmail filters. Opt-in spam is terribly easy to filter out.

------
veyron
Does anyone use a service like mailinator or spamgourmet?

~~~
bshep
I use spamgourmet for almost all my accounts: sitename.username@xoxy.net or
asdf.net

I get 5 emails by default and I can add more if needed, and if i deem them
worthy I would add the site to the allowed senders list, the best thing is I
can track who sold my email address pretty easily.

