
Anxiety Looks Different in Men - andygcook
http://wsj.com/articles/anxiety-looks-different-in-men-11564494352?mod=rsswn
======
spaceprison
This is a great article. For years I didn't know how to handle anxiety so I
handled it "like a man" which lead to a pretty decent drinking habit.

Now that I've stopped drinking and being open about what's going on with me,
my anxiety looks like traditional anxiety which was easy for my gp to help
diagnose.

Taking the leap to be open and get help was the best thing to happen to me in
years.

~~~
wpietri
For this audience, I would add that anxiety is in some sense often a career
positive. During the years I spent as a sysadmin, the continuous feeling that
something was about to gowrong and I really needed to prepare for it was
useful to my employers. Even if it was bad for me, my relationships, and my
physical health.

~~~
cissou
The worst thing about this is that realizing it isn't necessarily the first
step to improving your condition. On the contrary, it can lead to cultivating
your own anxiety, because it gives you opportunities you wouldn't get with a
more healthy work life...

------
dkarl
Anxiety is one of the emotions that I have to consciously think about how to
express. I have to imagine what people look like in the movies when they're
scared, and then I try to reproduce it. I can show many other emotions
naturally, without thinking about it: happiness, anger, disgust. But fear I
have to consciously simulate. (I suppose if I was in a bus going off the edge
of a cliff or someone stuck a gun in my face, my repressive instincts would be
overcome and I'd look terrified, but in normal situations it doesn't come
out.) I think I've internalized the ability to hide it, to camouflage it as
annoyance or boredom, so thoroughly that I have to layer a bad acting job over
my lockdown of the natural expression.

I didn't know this until I got in group therapy and realized that many of the
other people in my group (the women, in fact) didn't register the fact that I
was feeling a lot of anxiety, even though I talked about all the time. When I
talked about it, they didn't see any reflection of it in my face or body
language, so what I said didn't register. I could say that I was feeling
anxious, I could tell them about situations where I was paralyzed with
anxiety, and still the absence of the expression they expected outweighed what
I was telling them. They even accused me of withholding and not being open
about my feelings until I learned how to act it out for them. I had to fake it
to be accepted as authentic; my words were not enough.

This knowledge has proved to be very important to me. I realized that in many
situations where I have mentioned my fear of something without expressing it
physically, people have assumed I was lying. For example, when I talk about my
fear of the financial consequences of a purchase, if I don't _show_ fear, my
wife may assume my fear is not real, and I'm making up an excuse because I
want to spend the money on something else. Also, in situations where everybody
else is feeling and expressing fear, if I don't consciously produce an
expression of fear, I will come off as apathetic and detached.

It's very, very frustrating. From a young age we learn we are punished for
showing fear, conditioned to hide it, and then later we realize there are
situations where we are punished for our inability to show it.

~~~
Retra
I have the opposite problem: I don't know what anxiety is. Supposedly it's an
emotion people have (and it's certainly possible I feel it too,) but I have no
way to identify my feelings as anxiety because nobody has ever expressed the
meaning of that term in a way the conforms to any feeling I have ever had.

~~~
dkarl
I originally glossed over your comment pretty quickly, but the more I think
about it, the more I realize this is true in practice for me as well. I know
what it feels like to feel joy or sadness, but for me anxiety is more often a
collection of things I observe about myself than something I _feel_. This is
partly because my anxiety is so often coupled with depression, and partly
because anxiety pushes your brain into a fight/freeze/flee trichotomy, and the
"freeze" and "flee" responses can feel pretty emotionally blank when the fear
is distant or ill-defined (like a deadline or social rejection as opposed to a
grizzly bear.)

Again depending on the fight/freeze/flee response, my anxiety can manifest as
stiffness in my body, requiring special concentration to force myself to do
normal things, or it can manifest as a jitteriness, like when you drive a car
with a lot more power than you're used to and every time you touch the
accelerator it surges forward in an alarming way. It can be accompanied by
elevated body temperature, even sweating.

The way I differentiate the paralyzing kind of anxiety from depression is that
depression paralyzes with lack of energy and an inability to believe that
anything you do will come out well. Anxiety paralyzes with stiffness and a
blank mind that is too twitchy to make plans.

Paralysis is the flight/freeze response to anxiety, but it also has a fight
response, where I single-mindedly execute the next thing to do. I can get a
lot of things done this way, and sometimes this is the only thing that snaps
me out of procrastination, but sometimes the "clear next step" I'm
unthinkingly executing is not the right thing. And when it becomes unclear
what the next thing is, I'm back to being paralyzed.

Likewise, in social situations, anxiety can make me talk a lot (for me) and
become much more open and engaging, and it can be a great thing to get me over
the hump to knowing someone well, but more often it just makes my mind blank
and makes me so slow to say the things I want to say that the moment passes.
From the point of view of my social anxiety, I guess that's a win, preventing
me from engaging more than superficially.

------
furyofantares
I’ve thought about this a bit. I don’t have anger issues but I have anxiety
issues and I spent decades not understanding that I experienced anxiety. In my
experience, the culture tells men to exhibit strength and show no weakness.
What counts as strength/weakness has changed over time and varies depending on
your social groups — it’s not just the stuff associated with typically
masculine values, but it also shows up in coding skills, or parenting skills,
or how much work one takes on in those or other domains without complaint. In
Behave by Robert Sapolsky, it’s repeatedly observed that testosterone doesn’t
necessarily amplify aggression, but it does drive status-seeking/maintaining
behavior, where status is some set of collective values where one member can
have more or less of it than another and be seen as above or below the other.
To me, this maps very well to generalized sense of strength or weakness.

So, in my opinion, men are both wired and trained by the culture to avoid
admitting anxiety, to themselves and others, because it is a weakness.

~~~
plutonorm
Yup. I had a serious anxiety condition since childhood. But my parents were so
disgusted by my fear that they made me dissociate from it. I went to doctors
and said something is wrong, they asked, what? And I could not answer because
I could no longer feel my fear. I went for 30 years without knowing my
problem. Society has a serious attitude problem towards men and it is
seriously damaging a huge number of people.

~~~
lazyasciiart
> Society has a serious attitude problem towards men and it is seriously
> damaging a huge number of people.

As I understand it, this is what “toxic masculinity” is supposed to mean.

~~~
klipt
That just sounds like misandry.

Society has an attitude problem with women in some respects too, but people
just call it misogyny, not "toxic femininity" or whatever.

Being consistent with terminology is sadly underrated.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
Toxic femininity is actually a utilized term in the same spheres as toxic
masculinity was coined (ie. Academia). Toxic masculinity is not against men
but against a false societal pressure that men cannot show weakness, are
justified in expressing their anger with violence, and that showing aggressive
behavior instead of genuinely healthy human bonding is an acceptable and many
substitute. It forces pressure on men to be unable to report when they’ve been
sexually assaulted, when they’re anxious, in need of comfort, when they’re
mentally ill, etc.

This is how I’ve understood the concept and it seems to fit with the claim
that “I am a man and my parents emotionally abused me in response to my deep
anxiety disorder in my childhood to force me to avoid treatment for decades”.

Toxic femininity is the same sort of societal expectations for women that are
toxic. Women have more pressure to avoid being assertive even when their
personalities are naturally more aggressive. That a mother is a mother first
and a person second, such that everything she may do as a mother reflects on
her worth as a human being.

EDIT: Regarding 'toxic femininity' I've been corrected that this isn't
widespread used in this way. It's probably just used this way in my own
academic circle and I had made an incorrect assumption. Thanks HN.

~~~
nesadi
> Toxic masculinity is not against men but against a false societal pressure
> that men cannot show weakness

It seriously needs a name change, because the name implies that masculinity is
toxic and that's how I've seen it interpreted.

~~~
blaser-waffle
That's how a lot of people interpret it. That people take that away may be
deliberate, if you look at the roots of where the idea comes from, e.g. Andrea
Dwokrin and S.C.U.M.

~~~
krapp
>if you look at the roots of where the idea comes from, e.g. Andrea Dwokrin
and S.C.U.M.

Toxic masculinity as a concept was invented by the mythopoeic men's movement
in the 1980s, and later taken up in mainstream feminist critique. It was not
invented by feminists, and certainly not invented by radical feminists.

------
gavia1
This surprises me as a male who suffers from anxiety and exhibits none of
these symptoms.

To be more specific my anxiety manifests as a feeling of unease, sometimes
fear; and at times blends in with OCD where I become unsure of my short term
memory and whether or not something did or did not happen.

~~~
jdsfighter
I was only recently diagnosed with anxiety after spending thousands and
thousands on an emergency room visit and visits to a cardiologist, and I work
for a healthcare company with free access to GPs!

I had a variety of symptoms and none of them immediately seemed to shout
"anxiety" to my physicians. I was given dozens of blood screenings, X-Rays, CT
Scans, EKGs, Echocardiograms, stress tests, sleep studies, only to be told
that my heart is in wonderful shape, and that all of my symptoms were probably
anxiety (and after being put on Lexapro for several months, the bulk of the
issues really seem to have resolved).

I was experiencing: chest tightness, left-side chest and arm pains, random
dizziness, random feelings of disorientation, massive blood pressure spikes
that would last for hours (110/70 -> 190/120), headaches, pressure in my left
abdomen, heart palpitations, and several more very worrying symptoms.

At the end of the day, it all seemingly boiled down to a generalized anxiety
disorder.

~~~
n_u_l_l
Thank you for writing this.

Last December I started getting some kind of weird 'fog' in my head. I didn't
take it seriously when it first started and thought it would go away on its
own. But instead it became worse and I got severely cognitively impaired. My
speech got slow, I forgot basic words, I forgot names of people I knew, my
logical thinking was impaired. It improved a little bit but I'm still
incredibly cognitively impaired.

I spent hours searching online, using complex search queries and APIs to
gather a lot of info on other people that report the same symptoms. This
wasn't because I felt anxious, but I just really wanted to continue with my
life ASAP and my symptoms seemed very vague. The conclusion was that, besides
some medical causes, people with the same symptoms usually had anxiety.

Since I don't feel anxious or depressed and it appeared suddenly I still want
to rule some medical causes out. But it is comforting to know that when all
medical causes are ruled out, there is still a huge chance of it being just
anxiety.

~~~
milesvp
You may want to attempt to improve your sleep. Foggy head with reduced
cognition and memory loss are pretty major symptoms of long term inadequate
sleep. They’re very common symptoms that parents of young children complain
about, and can have some very long recovery times. Personally it took almost 6
months to recover once my first child started sleeping through the night. All
it takes is an hour a night deficit for an extended period of time to really
impact mental acuity, but you might not notice because it’s almost enough on a
daily basis, and by the time the cumulative effects show up, it’s not always
obvious sleep is the culpret.

~~~
pratap103
I had a really rough month where my 2yo was jet lagged and waking up crying
multiple times a night. After that I've had two months of anxiety on and off,
this is really helpful. Have always suspected that sleep could have been the
trigger but didn't realize that an hour a night could make such a huge
difference. Cheers!

~~~
taneq
And of course this is a self-reinforcing downward spiral. Sleep quality
destroyed by kids, underperformance in all areas of life due to sleep
deprivation, anxiety and stress due to underperformance, making it harder to
get to sleep...

------
yodsanklai
I'm an anxious person, but my anxiety just looks like regular anxiety. It led
me to take sub-optimal decisions and overall made my life more difficult that
what it could have been. I didn't know anxiety was a thing, and that it was
"curable" until I was 25. At that time, my gf who just became MD noticed my
issue and prescribed me benzodiazepines. They really helped. I know they have
bad press as they can be abused, but in my case, I take them occasionally and
I haven't noticed any side effect or addiction.

I don't think anxiety can be cured but the symptoms can certainly be
alleviated. It really helped me to understand that it was a condition, like
headache, and that it was temporary and could be controlled to some extent.

It's also interesting that while I'm still anxious, I'm not anxious for the
same things anymore. I used to be paralyzed by the mere thought of giving a
talk (esp. in English). I don't care as much anymore. Now it manifests itself
in other occasions.

~~~
SJSque
For what it's worth: I know that writing is not the same as speaking, and of
course I don't know how long it took you to compose that comment, but your
English is excellent.

------
ggm
Most sex differentiated medical stories which pop up in my feed tend to be
about drug interactions in women being misunderstood because of the
overtesting of males. That mental illness is mis-characterised in men, speaks
to me of two things:

1) we haven't had a large enough war to produce the volume of war psychosis
outcomes which correct for this and

2) women are tragically over-represented in all forms of mental illness
profiles, which may relate to their real condition but also may relate to
distortions in societal views of women and mental illness.

~~~
mjfl
3) We really don't know what mental illness is, outside of what makes people
criminally violent.

~~~
wpietri
Honestly, we don't even know _that_ it is, not in the same sense that we think
of physical illness. There's a really good Philosophy Bites on how applying
the conceptual model of physical illness to mental differences is problematic:
[https://philosophybites.com/2016/01/steven-hyman-on-
categori...](https://philosophybites.com/2016/01/steven-hyman-on-categorising-
mental-disorders.html)

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that X is or is not real. It's more the point
made by George Box: "All models are wrong; some models are useful." The
traditional medical model has helped plenty of people when applied to mental
issues. But it definitely made me think there are less wrong models still to
come.

------
Art9681
This one hits home. I have been arguing with my wife over stupid things that
have been triggering my anger. Two weeks ago I ended up in the emergency room
with a heart rate of 220. Got diagnosed with Supraventricular Tachycardia. I
have continued having episodes and it is obvious to me that the trigger is
anxiety. I worry a lot about too many things. Always thinking of worst case
scenario. I have a cardiology appointment in a few hours and depending how
that goes my next step is to see a doctor to get my anxiety under control.
Hopeful it will stop my anger issues.

Edit: I would also like to add that I think my anxiety and preparing for worst
case scenario in everything I do has been a factor in my career success. I
worry I will lose my "edge" if I change. Looking for advice on this.

~~~
TheLegace
I have found the Buddhist's have a neat trick to this. I think it boils down
all of life is suffering, but suffering is just an illusion.

When you start seeing reality that way, it becomes easier to detach
emotionally from everything. It's not that you don't care, you obviously can.
But the physiological stress responses like the one your describing can be
neutralized by training the response system.

If you have watched talks by Buddhist monks[1] they have described people who
suffer from horrible neurological disorders that cause them feeling of pain
almost like a chainsaw and the emotional response from that. But through
meditation and other practices their heart rate and brain responses can be
calmer than the average person.

This is by no means easy it takes years of dedication of aligning your
physiological systems with the mental one. But at the end of the day
everything is just more or less chemicals and electrical impulses to various
parts of the body. Knowing that is the ultimate freedom from that. There are
usually lots of factors involve whether its fear, anxiety and the whole
spectrum of "darkness" needs to be addressed at a deeper level.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fixvb3s25Uk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fixvb3s25Uk)

------
hanoz
Anxiousness, alertness to danger, and the imperative not to show it, is an
essence of the male human condition surely?

~~~
phist_mcgee
What a really insightful comment. I had never thought of it from that
perspective. I like to view culture as a layer on top of our instinct and
natural proclivity for certain behaviours. Men's choice to exhibit or inhibit
their anxiety probably would have dictated mating behaviour. No mate would
choose another that visibly responded to fears that weren't real. So an
adaption would be the redirection of that anxiety into violence or antisocial
behaviours, which ironically, are more attractive to some mates, eg. the bad
boy image. Fascinating stuff!

~~~
tachyonbeam
Evolutionary psychology says that women are looking for men who have the
characteristics of a strong leader. That means assertiveness, calm, self-
confidence, happiness, etc. If you look around, that seems to be very much
true. I don't think women are necessarily paying that much attention to
wealth, but it definitely seems like they are drawn to confident and
charismatic men. Men on the other hand, don't seem to mind if a woman is shy
or anxious.

It puts you in a tough spot, as a male, because you want to be truthful and
honest, express your feelings in a genuine way, but at the same time, there's
that voice in your head, that strong societal pressure telling you that
telling a woman that you are afraid, anxious or unsure might push her away.
I've had a situation recently where a woman suggested that she wanted to sleep
with me and came back to my place. We were both shy and nothing happened. She
suggested that our being too shy was my fault, that I should have broken the
ice and made her feel comfortable, and then she left. I kid you not. My self-
esteem was _shattered_ for a week afterwards.

This kind of thing is hard to cope with. I think I obviously need to pick
kinder women to go on dates with, but I understand why so many men are drawn
to alcohol and drug use. It's because they feel society can't accept those
feelings of inadequacy and anxiety that they have... And they're partially
right. As a male, if you show weakness, you can lose social standing. I think
attitudes are maturing and it's easier to be truthful and honest as a modern
male, but it's still tough. The worst part is that it seems society generally
does not give a shit about the struggles men go through. The popular narrative
is all about oppression of women by men, and there isn't that much room for
listening to the issues men face. I know that's how it feels to a lot of
people. Anyways, just my two cents. To the men who struggle out there, you are
not alone, and I hope that you can find good friends who are willing to listen
to you.

~~~
dnh44
> My self-esteem was shattered for a week afterwards. I think I obviously need
> to pick kinder women to go on dates with.

Based on what you've written, I'm not convinced her behaviour was all that
unkind. At least you received honest feedback which I think is kind. Consider
the social norms of the society you live in and then consider the impact to
her self-esteem your lack of initiative had.

I say this as someone who had the exact same problem with shyness. Don't get
me wrong, shyness is nice, but shyness can stop you from doing all the things
in life you'd like to.

------
shange
Toxic masculinity: "The concept of toxic masculinity is used in psychology and
media discussions of masculinity to refer to certain cultural norms that are
associated with harm to society and to men themselves." \-
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity)

It's not the same as misandry. "Homophobia" sounds like it means "afraid of
homosexuals" but that is incorrect. "Toxic masculinity" kind of sounds like it
means "all masculinity is toxic" but that is incorrect.

I am female, have been diagnosed with anxiety and depression, have been to
therapy, and am interested in gender theory. These comments read like unguided
group therapy mixed with fuzzy realization of the concept of toxic
masculinity.

~~~
quacked
There are multiple definitions of "toxic masculinity" even in the Wikipedia
article you linked. The intended meaning of the term seems to vary from user
to user, which I think is one of the reasons people react defensively to it;
they're all responding to the most frequent usage of "toxic masculinity"
they've heard, which often don't match.

From the Wiki: "In a psychoanalytic context, Terry Kupers describes toxic
masculinity as 'the need to aggressively compete and dominate others'".

Is a competitive sports match where both teams are engaged in a spirited
attempt to compete and dominate others an example of toxic masculinity? Is it
only toxic if the participants feel a 'need' pressured from the outside to
participate? What if it's an internal need, and brings them joy? Would a woman
needing to compete and dominate others be displaying toxic masculinity? Is
competition itself masculine, or toxic? Is a kid who's excited to wake up
early every day to play sports displaying "toxic" traits? Already the need for
asterisks is present.

Relevant, I think: The Motte & Bailey Argument

[https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/03/all-in-all-another-
bri...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/03/all-in-all-another-brick-in-the-
motte/)

(Edit: all of the questions I asked aren't meant to be prove the non-existence
or non-impact of harmful male-standard behaviors; based on a carefully curated
definition of "toxic masculinity", I am thoroughly opposed to it. My point is
that upon hearing a single simple definition, all of these relevant questions
can be immediately generated, and I doubt all the experts would answer them
identically, which I think means there's something wrong with the definition
as it stands.)

~~~
shange
Of course wanting to win your tennis match / soccer game / ping pong
tournament isn't inherently toxic. I don't want to get in a match of word
definitions here but the point of the "toxic" part of the term is that it's
the part that does harm.

The specific usage that I was trying to point out was not correct which I
stand by is the "I assumed from the phrase 'toxic masculinity' that it means
'masculinity is toxic'" and the accompanying weird anti-feminist-backed-by-
misguided-logic mindset that seems unfortunately common on HN

------
psweber
Many anxious men (and women) aren't suffering from an anxiety disorder. Their
anxiety is a perfectly reasonable response to the life they are living. I'm
fine with therapy, meditation, and medication as long as they aren't used as
tools to make it bearable to stay in a bad situation.

~~~
nness
This comment couldn't be more counter-productive.

The article makes it clear that a feeling of anxiety at certain times is
completely normal; it is when that anxiety is affects your daily life, causing
you distress, or leads to depression or harm should it be concidered an
anxiety disorder.

The article notes that men can react to or present with anxiety differently;
and that representation is ignored, leading to a reduction in their quality of
life. Dimissing it, as you have, is exactly what prevents men from receiving
mental health support and society, at large, from recognising mental health
issues in men.

~~~
jacobolus
If you are chronically stressed because you are working a terrible job, have
overwhelming family obligations, etc., that doesn’t necessarily mean you have
an “anxiety disorder”.

It might instead be that your anxiety is a perfectly natural response to bad
circumstances. To fix the problem it would be better to address the causes of
the stress instead of trying to just treat symptoms.

At a societal scale, it would be better to e.g. improve worker protection
laws, expand the social safety net, subsidize childcare for working parents,
crack down on fraudulent business practices, allow people to discharge student
loan debt in bankruptcy, make sure skilled immigrant workers can switch
employers without losing their immigration status, work to reduce domestic
violence, reform the criminal justice system, etc. instead of just expanding
access to anxiolytic medication or pretending that therapy alone can solve all
problems.

For an individual, the proper response might be to quit a job, start saying
“no” to demands to work overtime, break up with an abusive partner, sit down
and have a frank conversation with overly demanding parents, declare
bankruptcy, take a leave of absence from college, let someone else take over
maintaining the open source project, ...

~~~
bitcurious
> To fix the problem it would be better to address the causes of the stress
> instead of trying to just treat symptoms.

The effect of depression, anxiety, and a host of other mental illnesses is
that they prevent you from taking steps to address the addressable issues in
your life. To start exercising while depressed, to start socializing while
suffering from anxiety, etc., are some of the hardest things to do. That’s why
medication is typically paired with counseling - the medication prepares you
to take the steps the counseling guides you into taking.

To put it another way, anxiety disorders (and depression, and ADHD, and more)
take away agency. The purpose of medication is to reintroduce agency. The
medication (for most people) won’t fix their problems, but it will help them
fix them.

~~~
scrungus
do you think that, in general, medication is successful in improving the
agency of it's users?

i worry that medication harbors a reliance on drugs, and facilitates growth of
a society in which drug-use is necessary to participate "normally".

if someone with ADD/ADHD has an opportunity to increase their agency, do you
think that would increase their quality of life? the parent commenter
suggested that mental illness (in the case of depression) might be the result
of someone with healthy brain chemistry in a bad environment. but do you think
that someone with healthy brain chemistry can demonstrate an attention
disorder as a result of their environment, and would be more able to improve
their environment through medication?

~~~
ps101
> i worry that medication harbors a reliance on drugs

It can also get you out of bed when nothing else does. Or prevent you from
killing yourself when you otherwise would have. Or give you a push to take
small steps to get your life together. All of these effects are valuable
despite efficacy being far from 100%, there being side effects and issues with
reliance.

------
SkyMarshal
I appreciate the TLDR in the subheading:

 _" Instead of coming across as nervousness or worry, anxiety in men often
appears as anger, muscle aches or alcohol use—leading many men to go
undiagnosed"_

I wish all articles did that instead of burying the lede.

------
whiddershins
A few years back I for the first time labeled something I was feeling as
“anxiety.”

It was liberating, really did change my life, I just had no idea that was what
that feeling was called.

------
air7
> When a man explodes in anger over something seemingly insignificant, he may
> appear like just a jerk. But he could be anxious.

What's in a name... Its amazing the difference a title makes. Being "a jerk"
is frowned upon, its "bad" and the jerk should know better. But when its
"anxiety" its met with compassion and understanding. He needs help not a stern
look.

Why do we feel that the jerk has agency over his actions but the anxious man
doesn't? If anything, I'd say it's the opposite: the poor titleless jerk has
no option but to be like he is. The anxious one could seek treatment to
reconfigure his behaviour.

This whole arbitrary divide between agency and fatalism pops up again and
again. See nature/nurture, gayness, crime (compare poor vs richer
perpetrators), insanity, acts committed under influence of drug etc etc. It
seems like society had to decide on the age old unanswerable question of free
will, and it did, arbitrarily.

~~~
jjeaff
In one case, someone is being a jerk because they can't control their
reactions due to their anxiety disorder.

These people are likely remorseful for what they have said or done.

A true jerk is someone who is being a jerk on purpose because they don't care
about others. And they don't regret their actions because they think they are
justified.

Seems like an important distinction to me.

~~~
air7
The question then becomes: Does the "true jerk" have more control over his
actions, or is he bound by his personality traits just as much as the
"remorseful jerk"? Can we not say that the former can't control his reactions
due to their "true jerk" disorder?

------
bradenb
This article helped me to realize I probably should be seeking help for
anxiety. I always knew I had anxious tendencies, but I didn't ever think I was
just "sucking it up" until I read this.

I grew up being taught that drinking alcohol is a sin and drugs are evil and
your body is sacred. Although I don't hold those beliefs myself I can't help
but be manipulated by them. In actuality, I think I'm glad I was raised that
way because I think I could very well have fallen into a hole of substance
abuse. I've had to learn to cope with my anxiety in other ways. I tend to get
very stoic and hyper-focused on problems that make me anxious. I try to use
logic to find solutions or--more likely--to find a way to run away and avoid
the problem. It hasn't always been easy on my marriage; fortunately I think my
wife understands these emotions I have better than I do.

I don't know if this is generally true, but for myself, I think the problem
has gotten worse as my family has become more and more dependent on me to
survive. My wife skipped getting an education to raise a family and as I make
more and more each year and our lifestyle gets more and more comfortable then
I feel this pressure building up to not fail. If my 18-year-old self could see
me now he would be shocked. I'm totally risk-averse, far more introverted, and
far more anxious. I don't think it's totally a bad thing, it keeps me and my
family protected to a degree, but like everything in life it's a sacrifice. I
sacrifice some unknown quality of life to keep what I have now.

I find that sometimes I wish it would all come crashing down. That I would
lose my job, lose my home, or worse. I think I fantasize about these
possibilities sometimes because although they scare me I recognize that I
might need an external force to change a life with too much momentum. To be
clear, I'm pretty happy. I love my family, I have a decent job with fantastic
coworkers, I make good money. I don't have suicidal thoughts, I'm not
"healthy" but I don't abuse substances. That's all great, but somehow it isn't
enough by itself. I'm just an anxious man I guess.

~~~
agent008t
Judging by this thread, this seems like the norm. (Social) media makes it seem
like it isn't.

------
Ostinus
I can relate to this article. I didn't know how to handle anxiety so I handled
it like a man, by drinking, fighting, screaming.

------
jaequery
CBD is really working for me to curve anxiety. I’m surprised there not that
many replies about it here yet.

------
VBprogrammer
Question for fellow non-Americans. Is it just me or is anxiety rarely a
condition someone would describe themselves as having? I only ever hear about
it in relation to Americans.

I'm sure the difference not physiological. Perhaps anxiety is just rolled
under the more general heading of depression?

------
pratap103
Has anyone experienced their anxiety symptoms flare up after a strenuous
workout? I know this seems fairly obvious, but I was just wondering if anyone
else experiences this.

~~~
mackross
Yep

------
monksy
That's because as men: We aren't allowed to be a worrier, anxious, etc.

We're expected to be confident and assertive. If we aren't then we possibly
suffer rejection in relationships and we get socially isolated.

~~~
mwfunk
I don’t think that’s true. Some women like extremely assertive guys, but most
don’t. Acting super insecure is a turn off, but acting super confident isn’t a
turn on. The “be more confident!” advice that most guys have heard really
means, “don’t act super nervous and insecure, just be yourself, even if you
think you’re boring.”

And to all the guys thinking, “but if I’m just myself, nobody likes me.” Well,
that’s probably not true (sounds insecure actually), but even if it is, that’s
either a personal growth opportunity or a sign that they’ve been talking to
the wrong women.

~~~
deogeo
> Some women like extremely assertive guys, but most don’t. [..] acting super
> confident isn’t a turn on.

The post you replied to didn't use the "extremely" or "super" adjectives.

~~~
mwfunk
You're right, I misread it. I'm reading my own experiences into it, but those
aren't everyone's experiences. I had what I felt was crippling social anxiety
in my teens and 20s (I'm in my 40s now), or at least an extremely limited and
lonely high comfort zone surrounded by an unlimited discomfort zone. I felt
like my whole life had been filled with people always telling me to "just be
more confident" or "be more outgoing", but what does that even mean? That's
not actionable advice. It was especially annoying because it's so ambiguous
and unactionable, but always seemed obvious to whoever was giving me the
advice.

One thing that helped me personally was realizing that in my case, "just be
more confident" really meant not worrying about putting up a falsely confident
front. Like, I always felt this pressure to appear confident and charming and
however I wanted people to see me, but I never felt that way on the inside,
especially around women I was attracted to or other people I wanted to
impress. So if I didn't feel confident, the only thing I could do was at least
attempt to appear confident. After all, that's what everyone kept telling me
to do, or so I thought. Anyway, this pressure (probably rooted in a form of
narcissism) that I subconsciously put on myself in the moment to be
confident/charming/etc. was just overwhelming, to the point where it sometimes
rendered me incapable of social interaction at all. It was like the part of my
brain that was in the driver's seat during social interactions would just lock
up sometimes and I wouldn't even know what to say. But even when it was
working it was exhausting.

In hindsight, this was the source of much of my social anxiety. It was like an
ass-backwards subconscious instinct to play the role of the person I wanted
other people to see me as. That's never going to work, it's like scripting and
acting in a role in real time, a role that you don't understand well enough to
write in the first place. I could never begin to get any better socially until
I really truly internalized the fact that I didn't need to pretend to be
someone I wasn't when I presented myself to other people, and I should just
try to be in the moment rather than anxiously observing my own behavior. But,
that's probably pretty specific to me and may not even make sense to anyone
else.

Also my brain parsed "confident and assertive" into "extremely confident".
When I think of someone who's consciously assertive, I think of a display of
confidence for its own sake. Maybe that's not what they meant though.

------
ptah
> “Aggression tends to be more socially acceptable to many men than anxiety.”

Is this what is meant by 'toxic masculinity'

~~~
brazzy
Yes, definitely part of it.

------
tluyben2
I sometimes suffer from bad and acute anxiety attacks: I carry xanax (with the
md prescription so I can travel). It happens very rarely (few times per year)
and only 1 max 2 pills is enough to kill it usually. Without pills it just
keeps going and when it happens it is impossible to stop unless using alcohol
but then it does not end soon; it can take a week or longer and the feeling
drives you mad (if you do not know it, good for you; you would not wish it on
your worst enemy). So I make sure I have 2-4 pills on me.

There is no underlying cause that they can find or use to ‘fix it’, although I
have a specific moment when it started (20 years ago). It used to be far worse
(every 2 weeks taking 2-3 days) than it is now.

I often notice someone behave a certain way (some kind of movements or
suddenly being ill and having to stay home, especially when there is a
stressor; it is usually that or a migraine, which also still has stigma
(here?), like, just take an aspirin and get over it, by people who do not
suffer from them (I do not anymore luckily)) or tell something specific that
makes me wonder if they suffer from anxiety; when I talk with them it often is
the case. That way I found out that many of my friends and acquaintances
suffer from it even though they never told anyone or were not even sure what
it was.

A few months ago I was driving with someone from my village who I told someone
next to me in the plane was vomiting all the trip; she said that maybe he has
that weird feeling losing control she sometimes has which leads her to stay at
home and grab a bottle. I told her to go to the doctor and ask about anxiety;
they sent her to the mental health dep after some tests and gave her xanax and
diazepam; she now is much happier as she can stop the attacks before they
become full blown. She never knew that it was anxiety and she was afraid
people (including the doctor, who usually is a guy who does not really believe
in this stuff; he tried to give me soothing tea before I got a signed and
translated doc from my Dutch ex doctor saying what I have) would find her a
whining weak person.

Of all people I know who suffer or suffered from it, including my wife and
family members, noone got properly diagnosed because it seems there is a big
stigma resting on this. Mostly people think they can just ‘man up’ and tell
themselves it will be fine. That is often not how it works; once it really
starts you just cannot stop it; no amount of meditation or positive thought or
exercise helps. So you try to mask it (for yourself and others) in several
ways.

If you have anything; just go see a doctor; if it is anxiety, your life will
improve massively if you get proper help.

Edit: I don’t recognise the anger bit, but yes, without pills, drinking is the
only thing that helps/calms down and it often makes it worse besides being
unhealthy (especially as this can happen any hour, day or night, and downing a
few beers at 6am is not quite, well... good, so definitely get pills and keep
them on you; no drink needed ever again).

------
black_puppydog
Am I the only one who feels that all the gender studies that keep being mocked
ultimately have the potential (if executed properly yada yada...) to benefit
cis men as much as anyone else?

~~~
black_puppydog
lol I'll take that as a "yes you're the only one". Oh well...

