
Forest kindergarten - EL_Loco
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_kindergarten
======
nkrisc
There's one near where I used to live in Chicago. They use a local Forest
preserve. Strangely there is a contigent of neighbors who continually try to
get the whole thing shutdown because they don't think young kids should be
outside like that all the time. They try to complain and say they leave
garbage or are noisy or other invented complaints. From what I understand,
what they're _really_ upset about is that they can't let their dogs run around
off the leash with little kids around all the time.

~~~
dmix
Those small groups with a bit of power like NIMBY activists are the worst. You
see it on Facebook groups for buildings too, they range from over-protective
types who are scared of the city/outside to fully invented hypothetical
problems any time something is "different" happens.

I've always wondered what these people get out of it.

~~~
Sharlin
In their own narrative, of course, they're just good people trying to protect
children/live their live in peace/etc.

~~~
TomMarius
Yeah but freedom is about tolerating what you don't like because it's none of
your concern. I don't understand how the "land of the free" could favour a
small group so much. It's unthinkable in my post-socialist country.

~~~
Sharlin
"Land of the free" is propaganda, plain and simple.

~~~
dang
Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN.

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Pfhreak
We've got our daughter in a similar preschool. She spends 2-3 hours during
school days outside in a semi-structured environment. (Ie, there are adults
and rules, but the kids are free to negotiate their own games, social
interactions, and play.)

It's been astounding how well balanced and social all the kids are from that
school. I supposed it's anecdata (I only know ~10-15 kids), but there's a lot
more awareness and empathy than I've seen from other kids in the 3-5 year old
range. Observationally, there is a little less skills development in
reading/coloring within the lines.

As a parent, it feels impossible to know the right thing to do for your kids.
You have to emphasize _something_ in their education, at the expense of
something else. Choosing a school that values the outdoors, empathy, and
social development as the basis for teaching seems to complement our tech
savvy home life. I hope it works out.

~~~
toast0
> As a parent, it feels impossible to know the right thing to do for your
> kids.

Being adequate is enough. Chose something that doesn't seem clearly harmful,
pay attention for signs of harm, pay attention for signs that it's a bad fit
and make a change if it is. Really all you _need_ from preschool is
socialization, and some exposure to germ warfare.

What I hoped for my child to get was familiarity and positive associations
with the school concept. In my mind, it's more helpful if young people enjoy
school and feel it is a place where they can do things well than if they have
a lot more academic skills early and have developed a dislike of school.

~~~
barry-cotter
> What I hoped for my child to get was familiarity and positive associations
> with the school concept.

Why? Any Prussian model school will inure them to ranking, tedium, busywork,
being ranked and doing things that seem pointless because an authority figure
said to as well as another, whether they begin education in a child centred
school or not. It’s not like most metro areas even have a child centred
school, whether Sudbury, Montessori, Waldorf or other. They’ll learn what
school is actually like on exposure to it and develop associations with it
based on that whether they went to a child centred school for a brief period
or not. The long run effects of beginning schooling in a humane system will
fade and the only long run effects will be a few better years in childhood.

I suppose that’s enough justification by itself.

~~~
TomMarius
Why do you call them Prussian? It's Austro-Hungarian (Maria Theresia)
invention. Prussian schools were straight up military.

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jmkd
Both my kids went through a version of this system in Copenhagen.

2 weeks in the forest (by bus each day) then 2 weeks in the kindergarten. This
meant the kindergarten building could support double its capacity as only half
the kids were there at one time.

Main takeaway for me was how resilient they became to cold, playing, eating
and resting outdoors all day during winter, with far more ailments acquired
during the indoor fortnights than those spent outdoors.

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eob
There are several preschools like this in the Bay Area. My son has been going
to one for three years in the Presidio. They show up rain or shine (but seek
shelter in high wind or forest fire smoke).

It’s been an absolutely wonderful experience.

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fit2rule
Both of my kids have attended Waldkindergarten as a standard cultural action
here in Austria, and it has been extremely successful in their case -
motivating them each to be engaged in nature in their environment, wherever we
go. I quite often will find either one of them in our own garden, poking at
something interesting, whittling a new stick, caring for a creature they found
somewhere. Whereas their peers who did not attend seem, these days, to only
have attention for their mobile phones.

I strongly encourage every parent in the Western world to get your kids
engaged in the natural environment, whatever it takes. City-dwellers seriously
need contact with nature, especially kids.

I truly believe a kind of highly damaging neurosis occurs when people don't
hug trees.

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alkonaut
This is very common in Sweden. Weather isn’t an issue even in winter. Even in
”normal” kindergarten, my kids took their afternoon naps outside in -10C.

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skybrian
I wonder if this would also result in fewer children being nearsighted?

[https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-urge-children-to-
pla...](https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-urge-children-to-play-outside-
for-their-eyesight)

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lopespm
It is an interesting concept to have these borderless, less limited
kindergartens. Another example is a Tokyo kindergarten which was architected
to provide more freedom to children, and let them play and experiment as they
wish[1]

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5jwEyDaR-0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5jwEyDaR-0)

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checkyoursudo
Waldkindergarten was great for my boy. My younger girl isn't quite old enough
for it yet where we live, but I am sure it will be good for her as well.

My boy was outside, no matter the weather, every school day for about 3 hours,
and then inside for about 45 minutes.

Large motor skill and plenty of loose- or un-structured play with many other
kids seems to be a really great way for young humans to develop. They went on
hikes, exploring everywhere, looking for scat, and all kinds of activities
during their outside time every day.

If you have the opportunity to let your kid do this or something like it, then
I highly recommend it.

~~~
rubidium
As a parent of three 3 and under, and interested in this, can you share some
of the practicals?

-what if it’s cold (40f) and rainy? Do they still go out? What do you dress your kid in?

-what about fights with sticks?

-what about all the stuff in the woods that may or may not be edible (eg mushrooms)?

Just interested as these are some of the “how would that part work?” That come
to mind for me.

~~~
Doxin
> what about fights with sticks?

As an anecdote, I went to a school with a decided lack of sticks. Fights were
had by throwing building blocks instead. Kids will do stupid things, and
sticks aren't inherently more dangerous than building blocks.

~~~
rubidium
Right but in a classroom the teacher intervenes. In a “free play” outdoors how
are the rules defined and enforced?

~~~
em-bee
outdoors the kids are still supervised and the teachers can intervene if
necessary

~~~
checkyoursudo
Yes, exactly. My son's outdoor classroom (as the free play area is called)
still has a boundary and adult supervision. Sometimes the teacher or
naturalist is leading some activity, and sometime they give the kids something
new to investigate and then get out of the way. But they can always intervene,
if needed. It's really not often needed.

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dfee
In San Diego, there is a camp called Outpost Summer Camp that is exactly this.

This has also made me post-Montessori. I’ve left the faith, but we’ve found
the forest.

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em-bee
can you elaborate on post-montessori please? how does that look like to you?

~~~
dfee
I loved the idea of Montessori, and it’s an issue I raised in open discussion
at one of the school’s group chats.

Basically, in principle it’s great. Children drive themselves and follow what
they’re passionate about (with a teacher’s encouragement). If they’ve got a
tendency for math, for example, the teacher helps them develop their own
intuitions and keeps those pathways open for them.

In practice, my son believed there was a limit on his abilities to develop
because children under 4 years and zero days weren’t allowed to begin learning
numbers (or those stations weren’t available to him). You see, it’s still
cohort based learning, where cohort is based on age not ability.

So he knew numbers from home, but believed at school he was incapable. It was
a strange sort of cognitive dissonance where he could only “count to twenty”
as reinforced by his classmates, because he wasn’t old enough to do the number
station. And yet, he didn’t realize that meant he wasn’t able to say the
numbers greater than 20 - but often times he’d go from 1-200, etc.

Math wasn’t the only topic where this happened unfortunately.

This was at one of the few fully certified Montessori programs in San Diego.

I believe that it was a better program than a median program, but I’m not sure
if it’s because his peers came from families who could afford to spend time
with their children, or if the program itself was better than median.

However, it’s a different model that definitely did not address my root
concern - assisting a child to advance at their own pace (faster or slower).
Which just means that my expectations were mismanaged.

Overall, I think the forest kindergarten concept is more rewarding for my kid,
and he’s at least happy going to and coming home from school. That’s an oft
overlooked part of schooling: ensuring your child isn’t miserable - and
there’s quite a bit of misery at Montessori, due to the focus on quiet,
individual work.

~~~
barry-cotter
> I believe that it was a better program than a median program, but I’m not
> sure if it’s because his peers came from families who could afford to spend
> time with their children, or if the program itself was better than median.

Doesn’t matter which is true. Early educational interventions fade out
universally and we have nothing that effects adult intelligence or
conscientiousness which explain pretty much all variation in educational
attainment, partly through their effect on SES.

> “Heckman curve” update: The data don’t seem to support the claim that human
> capital investments are most effective when targeted at younger ages.

[https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/04/06/heckman-
cu...](https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/04/06/heckman-curve-update-
data-dont-seem-support-claim-human-capital-investments-effective-targeted-
younger-ages)

> The Heckman Curve describes the rate of return to public investments in
> human capital for the disadvantaged as rapidly diminishing with age.
> Investments early in the life course are characterised as providing
> significantly higher rates of return compared to investments targeted at
> young people and adults. This paper uses the Washington State Institute for
> Public Policy dataset of program benefit cost ratios to assess if there is a
> Heckman Curve relationship between program rates of return and recipient
> age. The data does not support the claim that social policy programs
> targeted early in the life course have the largest returns, or that the
> benefits of adult programs are less than the cost of intervention.

~~~
EL_Loco
What do you mean by 'fade out universally'?

~~~
em-bee
i think it means that the effects get lesser and lesser. that is, having a
child go to an exceptional kindergarten may show the childs improvements in
elementary school, but by the time they are in highschool that child is no
different than a child that went to an average kindergarten.

i don't know if that is true.

i believe there are some things that really make a long term difference,
however these things are more likely coming from the parents themselves and
less from the schools they go to.

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johnhenry
Kingergartens or Kindergartens?

~~~
dang
Typo fixed. Thanks.

