
The Putin Exodus: The New Russian Brain Drain - amai
https://publications.atlanticcouncil.org/putin-exodus/
======
dsabanin
I’m part if that immigration wave, as well as my brother and a friend.
Thankfully there was an opportunity to do that since we all worked in IT and
employed for the same company that we helped to build remotely.

The political climate and economic instability, combined with knowledge of
historical precedents makes me believe that Russian people’s future is very
dim, as is their past over the whole life of that troubled country.

When we immigrated in 2012, I already had a son and as a father I couldn’t
find it conscionable to state.

I didn’t want to be someone who decided to stay in Germany of 1935.

~~~
johnchristopher
> I didn’t want to be someone who decided to stay in Germany of 1935.

What are you referring to exactly ?

~~~
loriverkutya
Let me help you:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1935_in_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1935_in_Germany)

~~~
johnchristopher
Oh, thanks.

Now I totally see which aspects of 1935 in Germany parent has in mind when
thinking about contemporary Russia.

I can see how Sarah Kirsch's birth was a foretelling sign for things to come.

Totally helping, totally awesome.

~~~
kjeetgill
The very first line is: "Head of state, Hitler" I think that says enough?

~~~
johnchristopher
No, it doesn't.

"Because Hitler" is way too vague. It doesn't tell anything about which events
seem similar to OP and how the situation in the country is evolving. Unless he
means Putin is acting and thinking like Hitler which is a gross generalization
and still doesn't tell much about what's happening.

By that reasoning it follows that OP should have left the country when Putin
was first elected president in 1999.

edit: Also, Hitler became head of state in august of the previous year
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_in_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_in_Germany)

So, why 1935 and not 1934 ? But that's okay, OP clarified things
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19521632](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19521632)

I am curious why this is downvoted and people seem to be OK with the Hitler
rising to power comparison when we usually have political conversation here
that are going much much deeper in the details of things.

------
Tade0
I know a Russian national who moved from Moscow to Warsaw and, for the time
being, is not planning on returning.

The reasons are not political though. Even though her salary effectively
halved, she says her quality of life generally improved, because:

1\. The weather is better.

2\. The food is better.

3\. People are nicer.

Which caught me off guard somewhat because Poland is not really known for any
of these things.

Hell, for the exactly same reasons I spend a considerable fraction of the year
in Italy instead of Warsaw where I'm based.

------
lostmsu
I have moved in 2012. Happened after getting arrested without charges twice
during peaceful protests.

The elections in 2011-2012 were undoubtedly faked to a major degree. But these
years most people in Russia praise Khuylo for the victory in fratricidal war
with Ukraine.

------
jatsign
This is the problem with regimes that value ideology above all else. The most
fiercely partisan to the ideology, whether or not they truly believe in it,
rise to the top, regardless of actual talent. Anyone who is more pragmatic is
forced out. And those with desirable skills will have an easier time leaving.

~~~
sam_lowry_
There's a dinstinct lack of ideology is contemporary Russia.

~~~
EugeneOZ
You are wrong. There is a pretty bold ideology in Russia: Putin is a god-
blessed King, Orthodox Christianity is more important than any kind of
science.

~~~
postsantum
Church attendance is hovering around 4% and the absolute majority are old
women. While a lot of people consider themselves "culturally christian",
religion doesn't play a significant role in common people's lives

~~~
EugeneOZ
It doesn't matter what they believe, what does matter is how much power church
have.

Just one of endless examples: Military Academy of Strategic Rocket Forces now
has department (faculty) of Orthodox Christianity. It's just one of examples
of total madness and degradation - church gains more and more power in Russia.

------
baybal2
Mini-AMA, anybody? For me myself, left as an exchange student 12 years ago.
Been back for a few months after being kicked out of Canada in 2016, almost
got robbed the first time I went out late.

Back in 2007, it was very certain that the country was bordering on turning
North Korea any day. As somebody faring from a more or less privileged
background, my parents heard of credible rumour of Kremlin looking up to
"quick, clean war," and that was the last straw for them.

I saw tons and tons other far-easterners from Russia in China, Vietnam,
Malaysia, South Korea. Some leave for jobs, some move permanently.

Back in nineties, there were mostly engineers leaving for plumpy jobs in
Chinese state companies, but in this wave I see far more regular people.

~~~
doombolt
I'm not planning to leave Russia just yet, due to being a Russian nationalist
with a family, but I can sure answer any questions. The trend (or rather,
reversal of previous trend) surely exists.

Upd: HN, the place where you get downvotes by agreeing to answer some
questions. That's why I stopped coming.

~~~
skilled
This might be unrelated (slightly), but how is Russia coping with things like
LGBT?

And how has the 'work life' changed in the last 20 years? Basically, since the
Internet became a thing. Can you tell a distinct difference?

~~~
doombolt
I don't really know any LGBT in person so it's hard to say. I think nobody
will bother you if you stay clandestine. I guess the public opinion in this
area is shitty but it is universal quality of public opinion in Russia.

I was on internet before my first job so ot is hard to say. It's a mixed bag.
There are jobs which are bureaucratic hell (especially in large Soviet-
survivor companies outside large cities), there are jobs which pay peanuts and
productivity is non-existent (government sector), but then there's modern
economy with nice offices, passable atmosphere and fine work-life balance. If
you're not in IT and not splurging on natural resources wealth somehow, the
pay is low.

~~~
saiya-jin
As for LGBT - once the society is truly free, tons of people come forward with
it. You would be surprised how many around you would fall into this category.
I could witness this trend in 3 different countries as it unfolded.

Another thing is, since this 'freedom' for LGBT is relatively very new, most
of them experienced very troubled childhood/puberty. It must have been very
hard to fit in, not disappoint parents etc. yet feeling so out of place
compared to rest of the crowd. Russia as a nation would benefit greatly from
such an openness in long term, but I can't see it happening anytime soon.

Been there once (Elbrus), generally common folks are really nice, but this
soviet mindset of fuck-it-all-lets-drink-some-vodka (and other like that) are
bane of a modern free Russian society. One of examples how just having a lot
of smart people isn't enough if there is enough negative things to counter-
balance it. World moved to greener pastures, but Russia still seems like stuck
in 1991.

------
Grue3
As someone who is currently living in Russia (not voluntarily, I was born
there and still haven't managed to get out), I can see the results of the
brain drain myself. I'm currently trying to hire a Python programmer for the
company I work at, and the quality of the candidates I have to interview is
absolutely dire. Even though the pay for this position is really good. I'm
pretty sure anyone half-decent has left the country already.

~~~
brunkerhart
Just out of curiosity, what salary you compare with when saying it's really
good? Salary is not the only motivator. What is the size of your company? How
it is rated as an employer?

------
csomar
Anyone think this report might be biased? They picked immigrants who have
settled in San Fransisco, New York, London and Berlin. These are alpha cities
that attract the best talent and requires considerable effort from the
individual to thrive there.

They do have the number of immigrants per country. But it is very possible
that the people who ended up in, say, Rural Colorado, don't have the same
profiles as those the survey picked.

------
empath75
Just for context, the Atlantic council is a think tank created to support nato
and the American-European alliance in general, so take this with the
appropriate numbers of grains of salt.

~~~
scottlocklin
Or for a more aggressive line "you know how the US has been agitating for war
with Russia for the last decade or so? Well, you can partially blame these
guys."

Also, speaking of foreign interference:
[https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/support/supporters](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/support/supporters)

~~~
simonh
So Russia annexes Crimea and sends troops into Eastern Ukrain and Georgian
territory, even shooting down an airliner, and it's the US agitating for war.
Really?

Or maybe those were proportionate, even restrained responses to warmongering
activities by the US, such as.... er... the Obama attempt at a diplomatic
'reset' with Russia perhaps? Maybe it was scrapping the Bush era defence
shield plan that pushed them over the edge, or maybe cancelling sanctions
against the Russian arms export agency was the last straw.

In fact this is probably literally true. If there's anything we've learned
about Putin, it's that cutting him slack just gives him more rope with which
to hang you later.

~~~
scottlocklin
The US fomented a coup in Ukraine, an effort the Atlantic Council was deeply
involved in, and the east of Ukraine has historically always been a part of
Russia. We're presently overtly looting the place 3 ways to Christmas;
something you'd know if we had a media system which allowed people to notice.
FWIIW I've been in Crimea before the annexation, and my informal poll is those
people wanted to be part of Russia (they tried to secede from Ukraine in 95).

Wake me up when Russia foments a coup in Canada and the US annexes Vancouver
or whatever.

Russian government isn't nice, but the US and Nato have done nothing but make
the situation worse, and justify Russian repression.

~~~
simonh
The east of Ukraine voted for independence by 83%. So much for historically
part of Russia! Many of the people voting for Russia in Crime were, er,
Russian citizens working there. That's not an excuse for annexation. I happen
to have some sympathy for Russia claims on Crimea for historical reasons, but
annexation is many steps to far and what they've done to the Donbas and
sealing off the Sea of Azov coast is utterly inexcusable.

I just don't accept that the US fomented anything in Ukraine. The people on
the streets were Ukrianian citizens. Legitimate native protesters are
routinely painted as foreign agents, but that doesn't make it the case.

There is no real reason for Ukrain and Russia to be at odds like this.
Ukrainians have done nothing whatever to deserve the shoddy, dishonest knives
in the back Russia has been dishing out to them. Ordinary Russians should be
ashamed and humiliated by the way their government is ruthlessly betraying
Ukrain and bullying ordinary Ukrainians at every turn. All they wanted was to
function as an independent state and have friendly relations with the rest of
Europe, but this was too much for Putin to stomach. What kind of example would
that set for Russians?

Ukraine now has an active, boisterous and unruly democracy just as it should.
That's a sign of health, compared to the sham opposition groups that always
vote with the government and suspiciously overwhelming approval ratings you
commonly get under oppressive regimes.

~~~
scottlocklin
The "boisterous democracy" in Ukraine is presently stage managed by the US.
For the love of god, Nuland-Kagan was caught by Russian spooks picking who was
going to run what, like an imperial gauleiter. Yes, the white shirt bros in
the West (who I deeply sympathize with, speaking of deep sympathies) acted as
cannon fodder for our little project, but that doesn't mean its some
spontaneous anything; it's a bloody imperial project, just like the attempts
to remove Maduro in Venezuela. FWIIW I have business interests in Ukraine and
know some of these people. It's a US satrapy from top to bottom.

I don't think the Russians are innocent snowflakes, and I'd sure as hell
rather live in the US than Russia, but it's super obvious what their
grievances are, and that the US continuing to push NATO closer and closer to
Moscow, and our various ham handed attempts to influence their political
system is hugely dangerous.

~~~
simonh
Frankly, I'm currently for as aggressive and restrictive a containment policy
against Russia as possible. We've seen what Obama's 'reset' did - it created
the diplomatic space for Russia to maul Ukraine. Giving Russia any slack
whatsoever is a terrible mistake every time, they always use it to make more
trouble. Just ask Georgia.

~~~
scottlocklin
Well, I disagree with this view. I do not want to risk nuclear war with Russia
over ... Latvia. Let alone Georgia (who shelled Russian troops -presumably you
forgot about this part; also the part about how Russia left Georgia, because
it's not really expansionist the way you seem to think it is). Or Ukraine. I
mean, cool heavy metal records, and I like khachapuri as much as the next guy;
it isn't something I care about enough to risk living in radioactive cinders.
I do not see the US as world policeman, and do not trust the scumbags running
the place to do a good job of it even if I did think that was a good idea.

Since you bring up Georgia; how do you explain how our dude in Georgia,
Saakashvili, showed up running a big chunk of Ukraine for a while? Does that
not seem shady and "the US running Ukraine like a satrapy" to you?

~~~
simonh
The risk there is that you’ll end up just rolling over every time Russia waves
a nuke at you. Something they are very much willing to do.

Shelling Russian troops. As I remember it, that mostly involved Russian
tropps, er, on Georgian territory. It was a messy conflict though.

As for Saakashvili, last I checked he wasn’t an American, so what does he have
to do with America running anything?

Of course I know the answer. Trying to smear the activities of local citizens,
by blaming their activities on foreign powers, is a despicable attempt at de-
legitimisation that’s frankly shameful.

Even if I were to let that pass though. Suppose all those Ukrainian citizens
out on the streets in the Orange Revolution were all paid US agents. That’s
between Ukrain and the US, or between Russia and the US. How does it in any
way justify the appalling treatment of ordinary Ukrainians and Georgians by
Russia? How can Russia justify waging war against these nations on the basis
of the actions of a third party? It makes no sense, of course because it’s a
naked attempt to de-legitimise local citizens and change the subject.

~~~
scottlocklin
You don't have a good answer for why Russia left Georgia, do you? If Russia
were an expansionist bully, rather than a bunch of paranoids who would really
rather NATO not encroach on its borders (or Georgian hotheads shelling its
troops on a disputed border), you'd think they'd have stayed in Georgia,
wouldn't you?

Saakashvili is no longer a "local citizen of Ukraine" the last time I checked.
He was a US puppet, imposed on Odesa Oblast. I don't think he'd ever BEEN to
Odesa before; we were keeping him on ice in Brooklyn (oddly over an apartment
I've stayed in) after his insane attempt to invade Abkhazia.

I suppose by your lights, the US isn't presently fomenting revolution in
Venezuela, and Pinochet was totally a native Chilean organic response to
Allende. Fine: if the last three years has taught us anything, it is that some
people will believe anything as long as it is told in the US media.

Anyway, even if the Russian does do something crazy like attempt to take
Georgia, I really don't care! It's not my business. I don't want a nuclear war
over Georgia. This is a legitimate and sane political position, which somehow
the military industrial complex has convinced people is actually crazy talk
and that I should risk duke nukem for a country 5000 miles away most people
confuse with a southern state (which has 3x the population of Georgia the
country).

~~~
simonh
Imposed rulers don’t usually end up bein the most popular politician in the
country, yet somehow Saakashvili managed it. It’s hard to argue he’s
illegitimate in the face of public support like that, so bravo for managing it
anyway.

Still, the point is none of this America bashing in any way justifies Russia’s
appalling abuses of of Ukraine and Ukrainians. It’s like a husband blaming his
wife beating on how annoying the neighbours are.

~~~
scottlocklin
Sure they do; in the short term, and when given the backing of a nuclear
superpower with a media monopoly. Worked for Yushchenko for a while! Now he's
the most universally hated former leader in Ukraine.

Saakashvili is presently not even a Ukraine citizen any more! Imagine that!

