

Ask HN: Is it acceptable not to pay interns? - jackman002

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/28/your-money/28interns.html?em<p>Many people who were interview seem to suggest that they would hire paid workers but instead chose to use unpaid workers. Their reasons vary, but many seem to highlight the inherent value in unpaid labor.<p>Without a structured internship (weekly or biweekly meetings, goals, referrals, valuable introductions, ect) it seems these interns are getting very little in return.<p>How would you handle an unpaid intern? Would you accept unpaid labor?
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niels_olson
Something to think about: sometimes free labor means you're populating your
future industry with kids who can afford to not get paid, and this may lead to
aristocracy trumping meritocracy.

It was long the practice in medicine that not only did you serve your
internship for free, indeed you paid for the privilege. At some point there
was a collective realization that this was contributing to, or percieved to
contribute to, a good-ole-boy network instead of the meritocracy one wants of
doctors. So interns, and other resident physicians, are paid.

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jamesbritt
It's unacceptable to lie to potential interns about what they can expect, but
if someone thinks they're getting some acceptable non-monetary value for their
time and effort and wants to so the work, I don't see a moral problem.

Whether having unpaid people help with your work is good or bad is something
else. They're going to cost you your own time and effort, so you need to know
if you're shooting yourself in the foot by skimping on payroll.

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maconic
One thing is for sure: unpaid internships are probably illegal nine times out
of ten. Employers are legally required to pay interns at least minimum wage if
they fit the definition of an employee. Given the way most startups use
interns, they would be considered employees.

According to the Department of Labor, if an intern's work benefits the
company, then the intern should be treated as an employee. There is a six
factor test, more on this here:
[http://www.clark.edu/student_services/employment/documents/L...](http://www.clark.edu/student_services/employment/documents/Legalreunpaidinterns.pdf)

A related point, I think paying employees only with stock options is also
illegal for a startup. The stock options likely don't have much value in a
startup, and also the employee may lose the stock options if they quit (or are
fired) prior to their vesting date.

So, both interns and employees should at least be paid minimum wage unless the
company literally cannot even afford paying minimum wage. That said, the
company will probably only have a legal problem if the underpaid
intern/employee files a complaint.

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zb
It certainly wouldn't be considered socially acceptable here in New Zealand,
even ignoring the fact that you'd almost certainly be prosecuted if you tried
it.

For some reason it appears to be tolerated in the U.S. despite it apparently
being illegal in many cases. Mark Cuban was whining about this recently:
[http://blogmaverick.com/2009/09/05/want-an-unpaid-
internship...](http://blogmaverick.com/2009/09/05/want-an-unpaid-internship-
so-you-can-get-valuable-experience-screw-you/)

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jacquesm
I would not accept unpaid labour but I have had unpaid interns, they simply
were only allowed to learn. As soon as someone did something remotely
productive we would compensate them for it.

~~~
paulbaumgart
That about sums it up.

Following that rule is also how you can stay in compliance with labor laws (at
least in the U.S.).

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dkersten
Besides the legal issues, _you get what you pay for_. Really, if I was doing
work (especially if I can see it making someone else a pile of money) and I
wasn't being paid for it, I wouldn't be motivated to put any effort into it
and you'd probably find it cheaper to just pay someone instead.

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Mz
FWIW: I read somewhere that for some industries, unpaid internships are
becoming The Norm for getting your foot in the door for certain types of
things and it is becoming difficult to make it into some of the more powerful
jobs (in certain industries) without having this on your resume. The piece I
read criticized this practice as being a new fangled way to keep the upper
class in power because the people who can afford to take a full-time job which
pays nothing at all are generally going to come from a rather privileged
family background. It was cited as a sneakily exclusionary practice, a la Jim
Crow laws.

~~~
jackman002
I have had that experience with many companies. Often times in financial
companies it will be up to the discretion of a partner to decide if they would
like to pay interns.

I interviewed with two different offices of a large brokerage (shall remained
unnamed but they were purchased by BoA). One office told me I would get school
credit for filling orders. The other office offered to pay me for doing market
analysis. It seems the difference lies in how much they value an interns
service.

~~~
Mz
Often, people don't see the long-term consequences of such choices. That lack
of broader perspective always reminds me of the Aswan Dam. It accomplished all
of its stated goals and was, therefore, a "success" as measured by the stated
goals. But it had a few minor little unexpected side effects, like causing a
schistosomiasis epidemic, increasing the amount spent on fertilizer for farms
by like 600%, etc. ad nauseum.

I get labeled a bleeding heart idealist by a lot of people. I remain
frustrated at my inability to adequately explain that my views are typically
rooted in something deeply practical. A short explanation: I basically believe
in "karma" -- but I don't think there is necessarily anything mystical to it.
Just because people frequently can't trace the effect back to its root cause
doesn't mean there is no such relationship in reality.

<crossing my fingers and hoping that doesn't sound like some unrelated
meandering rant>

