
Ask HN: Fired from my first job – how do I talk about it during interviews? - jhatemyjob
Basically, I was on a shitty team at a zombie startup. I only stayed there because I wanted a &quot;year of experience&quot; ASAP. Some cliffs:<p>* 30% of their engineering team quit as I joined (apparently there was a big fight between the lead designer &#x2F; founders, the designer got canned, the engineers quit in response)<p>* constant check-ins &#x2F; viewing of our screen<p>* pile tech debt on top of tech debt (while not even acknowledging there’s tech debt in the first place)<p>* mandatory meeting at 5pm every friday, where we sit around a powerpoint drinking hard alcohol giving status updates<p>My manager was a negative person. He would constantly talk about how this is &quot;garbage&quot; or how that is &quot;trash&quot;, and I was expected to agree with him. Always talked and about things he hated or how things sucked. Rarely anything positive. He never admitted he was wrong and the rest of the leadership was clearly upset with him, but could not fire him because of politics.<p>When I joined, I had a lot of suggestions for improving the codebase but my manager shot every single one of them down with, in retrospect, bullshit explanations. For instance, he has said:<p>* There is no reason to use Objective-C<p>* Nobody writes C anymore<p>* Killing an app in iOS via the app switcher is the same as `kill -9`<p>* It&#x27;s impossible for anyone to understand our [60KLOC] codebase - BIGGEST RED FLAG EVER<p>After a while I told him I didn&#x27;t like the job, and the only reason why I didn&#x27;t quit was because I wanted a year of experience. I exercised 1 year + 1 month of stock options. I took vacation that would end 2 weeks before my 1y + 1mo. When I got back from my vacation they fired me for &quot;performance&quot;.<p>I don&#x27;t know what I&#x27;m gonna do in next interviews. Do I keep it on my resume or take it off? I don&#x27;t want to go into my interview, have them ask about my experience at this company, explain I got fired and say &quot;the company was shit&quot; because that will be just me complaining.<p>Does anyone have any suggestions?<p>EDIT: More clarification here https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20946023
======
blueadept111
Yeah, this is an important career hack: leave your company while the leaving
is good. If you stay until things go bad, then your resume will be nothing but
a long list of firings and/or bad reviews. Sad but true. Took me a while to
figure that out.

So your last work environment was a disaster and you got fired? Here's how to
describe it in your next interview: It was a GREAT PLACE to work, I loved it,
so many great learning experiences! Unfortunately the objectives of the
company shifted away from my core experiences and I wasn't needed, so they had
to let me go. But GREAT people there.

Seriously.

~~~
navyad
why can't someone be honest about the bad experience at job?

~~~
kentrado
because you won't get hired. because interviewing in our industry is
completely stupid.

~~~
navyad
yes, it is stupid.

------
soared
This may not be popular but you should, only to improve yourself, consider any
mistakes you made and how you might’ve handled the job better. This is part of
what your next employer will want to hear.

I am not saying it wasn’t a bad situation, just that you can still learn from
it. Maybe, just maybe, the timing of your vacation could’ve been a little
different? Maybe you could’ve worded ‘I don’t like the job I’m only here for a
year’ a little differently.

Your next employer will have to decide whether the environment was toxic, or
you were. Showing growth proves it was them and not you.

------
mytailorisrich
> _I only stayed there because I wanted a "year of experience" ASAP_

> _I had a lot of suggestions for improving the codebase_

It's important to learn politics and humility.

As a new graduate (or junior in general) on your first job you should be
extremely careful about making suggestions to 'improve' things. Heck at any
point of your career you should be careful about doing that soon after joining
unless you were brought in as an expert to do just that.

From this and the rest of your post, I would suggest that you try to develop a
more diplomatic, political, and humble approach in your next job. This is an
important skill.

~~~
winrid
This. Don't even make suggestions in the first SIX MONTHS. Just listen and
meet expectations for a bit and then take off like a rocket once you have
context.

~~~
mping
If you are on my team and make a possibly stupid suggestion, I would kindly
point out that due to the development trajectory the suggestion isn't feasible
(an example). If a junior dev (any dev!) is afraid of speaking, he/she will be
missing an opportunity to either learn or improve. Of course, the tone of the
suggestion (you should do this vs I think we may try this) and context can
make or break the interaction. I don't buy into the respect by antiquity
thing. Antiquity in a company only brings context and experience, not
necessarily intelligence.

~~~
2rsf
Asking and querying even hard question is one thing, but having " a lot of
suggestions for improving the codebase" is a totally different level.

Even if you are convinced that your suggestions are the best and absolute
truth, at a minimum be attentive and humble.

On one occasion a senior engineer came to my team and on the second week
brought some major suggestions that were immediately accepted by the front end
team, but that's the exception and not the norm

It doesn't matter if you are a newbie or more experienced, give some respect
to the rest of the team

------
nprateem
Put it on your resume. Gloss over the fact you got fired. Don't mention it. To
answer the "why did you leave" question just say you felt it was time to move
on and get more experience elsewhere. If they actually check references
(assuming the company is still around) and ask why you didn't tell them you
were fired go into detail then, explaining it was a "challenging company to
work for", there were "management issues that lead to 30% of people leaving"
before you joined, and in fact your firing may not have even been legal.

You shouldn't lie during an interview, but you're under no obligation to be so
openly honest by offering additional details that you do yourself a disservice
getting another job. I.e. If they ask you directly "were you fired from your
last job?" I'd answer "the job was challenging. Let me elaborate...", etc. and
if pressed actually say you were fired. But if they don't ask you that direct
question, just don't mention or allude to the fact you were fired. At least
that's how I'd play it.

Incidentally the same thing applies with "what were you earning?". _Always_
ignore the question and deflect. Answer the question you wanted to hear which
is "how much do you want?" and deflect. E.g. The correct answer is "I'm
looking for $xx,000. So what sort of tech are they using?". If they press you
for a figure just say you don't feel it's relevant because you took that job
for a variety of reasons, but you're looking to make $xx,000. If they won't
let it drop walk away unless it's megacorp that you're desperate to work for.
"What's the minimum we can pay you?" is the most valuable piece of information
a potential employer can find out about you and the last thing you should tell
them.

~~~
leesec
I like your advice except for the "you're looking to make $xx,000'. NEVER say
the first number IMO. The reason being is that it limits you to X% (prolly
5-10) range around that number. If you say I'm looking to make 80k, and they
were going to offer you 120k, what do you think they're going to offer you
now? Deflect until they say a number and then think carefully about making
your counter.

~~~
clinta
What are your strategies for tactfully deflecting this question?

Personally I try to start a discussion about how important benefits are to me,
and the fact that they can make comparing salaries between companies
meaningless, so I can't really talk about pay expectations until I have a good
understanding of the full compensation package.

But I'd love to hear some other approaches to go to.

~~~
leesec
Yeah usually something along these lines, if they press on first number I'd
say something like, "I'm open to considering a variety of offers, but I'd have
to see what the whole package looks like, and I'd really be interested in
hearing more about the company first."

[https://haseebq.com/my-ten-rules-for-negotiating-a-job-
offer...](https://haseebq.com/my-ten-rules-for-negotiating-a-job-offer/)

I don't know if this is the specific article addressing that question, but
this guys writing on negotiations was very helpful to me.

~~~
clinta
Thank you for this. This was very helpful.

------
gt2
I think you need the position on your resume since it's a large part of your
professional experience. Just put the dates, and if you are asked about why
you left, you could tell a short version of your story.

For instance, you didn't like the environment which didn't care about
technical debt, thought it was time for a company change, and when you voiced
your concerns honestly, they let you go.

People know there are toxic environments out there.

Very important: Try to get the new employers to fall in love with hiring you
before you get to that question. You can do this by having a great
introductory phone screen (try to focus them on telling you about/selling you
on the position before they can focus on you. During that conversation you can
explain how your skills are in line with what they need, talk a little shop,
show you are qualified).

Another way to achieve this is to have a great github/personal web page. If
you do these things, employers will care much less about what happened at your
last position and want you because of what you can do for them.

------
nvarsj
Any sign of negativity - complaining about your prior job, or worse, the
people there, is a huge red flag in an interview. They don't know you, so they
only can assume it's as likely you were the problem.

Interviews are, fundamentally, sales propositions. You shouldn't outright lie,
but you don't need to focus on the negative things either. People on the
spectrum (as many engineers tend to be...) find this kind of stuff very hard.
But for most people, it's fairly normal to sugar coat things to keep the
social machinery flowing. It took me a long time to learn this.

------
saagarjha
Sounds like you were stuck in an awful situation. Echoing the advice that some
of the others have provided you, I’d suggest being honest, but without
badmouthing the company/people you worked for. _If someone asks_ give a brief
explanation on how you did interesting work and learned new things but
eventually were let go. Don’t dwell on it and don’t use it as an opportunity
to seek “revenge”: you’re not going to get anything out of it and it’s a huge
flag for the company that’ll hire you (will they say bad things about us if we
fire them, too?)

Also, just as an FYI: while your manager was wrong with most of his
statements,

> Killing an app in iOS via the app switcher is the same as `kill -9`

iOS apps are essentially SIGKILLed if they’re swiped up on in the app
switcher.

~~~
jhatemyjob
Thank you for the advice. I will try my best to not badmouth my former
manager.

> iOS apps are essentially SIGKILLed if they’re swiped up on in the app
> switcher.

Sorry, I worded that poorly. To be clear, he use the word literally to
describe it. Which I think is pretty misleading. iOS still calls the delegate
method (and probably some other stuff) beforehand.

~~~
saagarjha
Not if the user swipes up on the app from the app switcher: you’ll literally
be sent a SIGKILL from the OS.

~~~
jhatemyjob
Oh. Wow. I feel dumb now.

------
abbadadda
Don't bad-mouth your previous employer, but you can put things diplomatically.
For example you can say "it was a very challenging work environment" instead
of "my boss sucked."

Also be prepared to talk about everything you learned and what you could have
done better yourself. It seems like you have a good idea with hindsight about
a lot of things that didn't seem right at the time.

But as noted by others, employers understand that there are toxic work
environments out there. Be honest but don't belabor the point.

------
sonthonax
You didn't get fired.

You left a startup that was shutting down, you had 2 weeks notice left and
they let you go early. Unless they have documented instances of poor
performance they can't really give you a bad reference. Also if there's
severance pay that they're not paying because they stand by 'poor performance'
they're probably asking illegally.

------
hotsauceror
Hey there. I was in your shoes, as well. I was fired from the first
organization where I'd been employed in a particular technical role, the one
in which I intended to make my career. I was good at it technically but had a
number of personality conflicts, partly out of frustration with things that
were happening at the company and partly from personal shortcomings of my own
in dealing with those frustrations. They fired me for "performance" which -
take heart - can basically mean anything and nothing, and is much, much easier
to deal with than having been fired "for cause".

It was scary, and I wondered exactly the same things you did. I can offer you
this advice FWIW. I found another job within 6 weeks of being let go, and I
had two other offers on the table.

* Be honest. If the web form asks you if you left the company voluntarily, say no. If you left on bad terms, they'll generally ask you whether they can contact your last employer for a reference, and you can say no. They'll get the picture.

* That said, you don't exactly have to lead off every interview with it. Honestly, I don't think any of the interviewers I talked with even asked me about it. They're interested in their own impressions of you and the work you've done.

* You should prepare a short explanation that - and this is important - doesn't blame or denigrate your prior employer. I mean it. Swallow whatever feelings you have about the situation and be professional about it. A new employer may not care about the circumstances of your leaving your last gig, but they WILL certainly care about the bitter, angry guy they just interviewed for this position. Something along the lines of "My leadership and I agreed that I was no longer a good fit for the position." It sounds gross, I know, but it's not really meant to be believed, and allows everyone to save a little face.

* If they press you, you might frame it as "personality conflicts" or "communications issues". However you decide to frame it, rehearse the explanation and maybe a quick followup. You don't want to start to ramble when you're on the spot, because that'll make you nervous and you may stumble into saying something you regret.

I know exactly what you're going through. We had just bought a house, we had a
nine-month-old baby, and we didn't have much in the way of savings. It was
scary as hell. But you square yourself up, set your jaw, and do what you have
to do. You'll get through it, and one day you'll laugh about it. I promise you
you're not the first person who's been fired. Hang in there.

~~~
mistersquid
I went through a different situation about 18 months back, the upshot being I
voluntarily left as well as being unable to ask for references.

I was devastated at the tine and it took me a year to recover.

Your advice is excellent, full of pragmatic wisdom and, had I encountered
similar guidance during my convalescence, I likely would have regained my
confidence sooner.

Especially useful is your suggestion to “be professional about it” as a
contextualization for words “that are not really meant to be believed, and
allows everyone to save a little face”.

(My problem was partly that I was so angry about being mistreated that I
thought the truth should come out and my manager should be held accountable.
If I could have let that go sooner, I’d have recovered faster.)

------
sketchthat
Don't be too negative of the previous company while interviewing because it
comes off bad. But if you can explain things that were good, and things that
were bad so it's not all negative the interviewer will understand.

------
amypinka
You should only go to work to make money and further your career. Your next
interview should know they've only got you in front of them because there is a
pay rise on offer.

Don't spend more than a sentence or two discussing your previous role.
Describe their business model and leave it at that.

90% of your interview should be finding out what skills and tech your new
employer needs and explaining to them why you're perfect for delivering those
skills.

------
7263255
I don't think anyone has addressed references yet, so as a member of many
hiring teams, I'll take a stab at it.

A positive way to look at being fired is that your company was having problems
and your managers were stressed. You set a goal to stick it out for a year and
you achieved that goal. Rather than only giving the usual two weeks notice,
you let your managers know in advance that you were planning to seek other
opportunities. They decided that you didn't need to work a notice period and
released you immediately. We hope things have improved for them. You didn't do
anything wrong. They didn't fire you because you stole from the company or
were accused of sexual harassment.

I will say that 20 years ago, particularly in large software companies, it was
common that you would give your notice and security would escort you to the
door. Companies didn't want you to work through a notice period because you
were deemed "disloyal." Maybe your manager didn't grow out of this mindset.

In terms of a reference, if they are smart they won't say anything negative.
Most companies won't simply because they want to avoid litigation. It sounds
like they have much more important things to worry about than damaging your
career.

Hopefully you worked with other people who can be references for you...
probably worked with you more than your managers. LinkedIn is a good resource
for this.

You can still use references outside your employer... from school, from
volunteer work, etc. Personal projects you work on can also be excellent
examples of how you do things when not influenced by office politics. As best
you can, build and document a case that you do/did good work. The company
won't be around long to be a reference in the future.

I'm sorry you had a miserable experience, but as a hiring manager it wouldn't
detract from my view of you. On the side, I'd think you would appreciate
working for me more since you had a bad experience somewhere else. Be thankful
that you were there, yet thankful that you aren't there any longer.

I appreciate that you stuck it out and that you are willing to ask for advice
when you aren't sure. I think you have good qualities that I look for when
hiring.

Best of luck in your career.

------
hevi_jos
Well, you will become the people you surround yourself with. You will not
change them but they will change you.

"Always talked and about things he hated or how things sucked. Rarely anything
positive."

I don't know if you realize everything you talk about your first job is
negative.

I would focus on the positive and minimize exposure if it really was that bad,
which I doubt, because your manager told you reasonable things.

I am c programmer myself, with lots of experience programming lots of other
languages, and programming raw c is extremely inefficient use of your time,
most of the time.

With less than 1 year of experience, your suggestions are of very little
value, and if you get experience working with a bad team, you are not
improving but learning bad habits.

In an interview, tell the truth, but you had a bad emotional experience and
are highly biased against your old job. Look at it as a neutral third person
looking from outside. Be grateful for it, and start looking at the good side
of it. Write it down.

Forgive them, you decided to work with them so you were as responsible as they
were. It is your fault as much as it is theirs. Forgiving them is forgiving
you.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrdEMERq8MA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrdEMERq8MA)

On future projects and endeavors start focusing on what you what to do, not on
what you don't want to do. Companies love people that is proactive and
efficient, not people that blames others, complains and put excuses.

But it should not be about passing an interview. Your attitude should change.

~~~
hevi_jos
PS: As an exercise you can put things in perspective.

70 years ago, if you were to live in Germany, Poland or Russia, you will see
your neighbors, friends and family slaughtered by war, your daughters or
sisters or mother become raped, your possessions were looted or bombed or
fired.

That actually happened in places like Syria or Congo or Central African
Republic recently.

And the worst that happened to you? Your ego was hurt.

------
smcl
"After a while I told him I didn't like the job, and the only reason why I
didn't quit was because I wanted a year of experience"

OK the company sounds pretty terrible and it's good that you're now able to
dedicate time to finding a new job with a more sensible company. But
unfortunately telling them this was probably a bit of a mistake, you should
keep your cards to your chest in future.

However I really don't think you need to stress too much about the "Why I
left" part. You'll be asked about the technical stuff long before that even
comes up, and if it does ... "Well I came back from vacation to find out I was
fired for 'performance reasons' \- it never came up before, I think they were
upset I didn't cancel my holidays to meet the deadline for ${project}. To be
honest I'm a little glad as the job was wearing me down - the team was quite
unstable (30% of the engineering team quit when I joined), we had little
opportunity to tackle technical debt ...". If the interviewers are reasonable
they'll sieze the opportunity to ask you about how you would have preferred to
handle the technical debt (or whatever the other carefully selected problems
you raise here) then you're back talking tech stuff again.

Others have said that you don't want to bring it up or complain as it'll be a
red flag. But I don't think they'll automatically assume the employer was
right, they'll be trying to figure that out while talking to you. You have the
advantage in this situation because you're the one who's able to do the
talking, not your previous employer. If you're calm, polite, reasonable and
able to talk objectively about the situation then they'll assume it's your
previous employer who was at fault :-)

------
ALittleLight
First, I wouldn't say anything negative about the company or my experience
there. As you observe about your previous manager, people don't like negative
people. Your prospective employer won't appreciate hearing you complain.
Negative people are also disproportionately likely to be the source of
problems themselves, so complaining a lot about your previous experience will
be waving a red flag that you are a potential source of problems.

When discussing your previous positions stick to facts (I did X, Y, and Z) and
positive notes about what you learned and accomplished.

Second, I wouldn't tell people that I was fired. I would list a year of
experience there. If someone asked why I left I'd say that I learned a ton,
the work was interesting - whatever true and positive evaluations I had, but
ultimately I wasn't sure I could accomplish my career goals at the startup and
so, after giving it a year, I've decided to consider other opportunities.

------
xivzgrev
Honestly most hiring managers I’ve encountered don’t really probe into it.
They will ask why you left. Say the last place was a good learning experience
(after all, you did learn a shit ton of things you don’t like), and then
switch to what you are looking for (ie listing out opposites of what you
experienced).

------
reacweb
IMHO, I think you should avoid saying "the company was shit" and instead focus
on what you have learned in a year, how you have improved, what are your
achievements. During this year, you have been contaminated by the negativity.
Try to clean up your mindset.

------
jhatemyjob
FWIW I do have other experience. I have been programming for fun since 2010.
And I started programming "professionally" since 2014, but it's not at in a
traditional job setting. I had a couple of products on the App Store but the
market changed and the money dried up. Hence the job, and why I wanted a year
of experience.

ALSO, there was another team that I think I would have been a much better fit
for (tech lead actually gave a shit about programming and gave people
autonomy) but unfortunately I did not take the initiative to switch over.

I have references from other people at the company as well, including the CTO,
that I actually liked working with, and they liked working with me.
Unfortunately they were not on my team.

~~~
StudentStuff
Only volunteer your good references, and consider auditing your ex-employer by
having a friend call HR asking about dates of employment, performance and
references. Many states restrict what can be said about former employees,
double check that what HR says is compliant with your local laws.

~~~
jhatemyjob
There was no HR.

~~~
gt2
In a small company, some other position will field the inquiry. Could be CEO
themselves, or their assistant, or some other executive/partner.

------
siempreb
Welcome to making money as a software developer. Your experience is nothing
exceptional in IT, most startups are pretty bad if you ask me. You can be more
picky with companies, but that will make it tricky to find a new job in time.

My advice for your next job: don't mention any of the bad things you've
experienced, talk about all the good things you've learned, the great team you
had etc.. always remain positive in every new interview. And don't expect a
great developer experience when you enter a new company, (although it
sometimes happens), you work for money in the first place, and coding is your
skill.

------
d--b
I’m not sure I agree with all the comments here.

You can explain this story the same way as you did here, with perhaps a little
less bitterness. Something like:

“This was my first job. I thought I needed the experience, even though I knew
the company was somewhat toxic. It was not going well, but thought I’d stay
because it would look bad if I left. Then I told my boss things weren’t going
well and he fired me, which to be honest was a relief. So all in all it was a
big mistake and a waste of time, but at least now I know that company culture
is important and this is also why I want to join your great company blah blah
blah”

------
trumbitta2
"It was my first job experience, and though in retrospective I think me and
the startup didn't really fit well, I learned a lot."

And you go on from there.

------
JSeymourATL
> I don't know what I'm gonna do in next interviews.

Personal disclosure is a desirable managerial trait.

So, you got booted. They said 'performance'. You say the place was
dysfunctional.

Question: What did you learn from this experience?

\- What do you think you would do differently?

\- Will any former colleagues/supervisors serve as a professional reference;
vouch for the quality of your work?

~~~
jhatemyjob
> What did you learn from this experience?

Spend as much time as possible with my manager BEFORE accepting the job. Keep
my yap shut unless I have something useful to say.

There are other "lessons" I already knew, but intentionally went against
because I wanted 1 YoE and/or wanted to see what would happen: Quit if I don't
like it, don't tell your manager you want to quit unless you're actually
quitting, don't be negative.

> What do you think you would do differently?

Switch teams.

> Will any colleagues/supervisors serve as a reference; vouch for the quality
> of your work?

Yes. There were two engineering teams, I was on the shit one. There was a
better engineering team (led by the CTO). Every time I worked on their
codebase / interacted with them it was a positive experience. The CTO and a
few people on that team reached out and said "let me know if you need
anything" \- so I think I'm good.

~~~
JSeymourATL
> The CTO and a few people on that team reached out and said "let me know if
> you need anything"

Good. So, be sure incorporate this into your disclosure. That will mitigate
potential Red Flags to new employers.

~~~
jhatemyjob
Thank you for walking me through this. Sorry to keep pestering you, but as far
as my disclosure goes, what do ou mean? I'm not entirely sure I follow. Are
you saying I should stick to those 3 bullet points you outlined?

~~~
JSeymourATL
It’s highly likely during the interview process, someone will ask _why did you
leave your last company?_

Be prepared to answer. Networks often overlap in mysterious ways in the
business.

ex: _Truthfully, I was let go. My CTO and colleagues will vouch for the
quality of my work. But my direct reporting manager was a bit difficult.

That’s why I am being very strategic about my job search, really focusing in
on the people, culture, and reporting relationships._

~~~
jhatemyjob
Got it. Thanks! Random question, what's your favorite book?

------
dyeje
People get fired, I wouldn't worry too much. Figure out a narrative that
sounds good and some positive references.

------
amacalac
Keep it there. Be honest, tell interviewers what happened.

Sounds like a shitty company; so I wouldn't expect a glowing reference...

------
LocalMan
If the company goes belly up that can be a good point for you. You left
"Because it was becoming clear the company could not survive." Don't put all
the blame on the managers, put a lot of blame on their competitors and
customers. If the company is alive but on the ropes, the same tactic can be
used.

------
enz
I think being honest about that can work, here. Anyone will understand that
your former boss was not a good boss.

------
paulcarroty
Tell the truth, your lie will be detected sooner or later.

------
ryanthedev
Fake it until you make it.

