
Ask HN: Is it difficult for non-Chinese to work in China? - ap22213
What should an American (or other English-speaking) software engineer expect if they wished to work in China?<p>Is there xenophobia?  Are Americans looked down upon or treated differently?<p>How difficult is it to find a job?  How about a visa?<p>Culturally, what are some things to avoid, things to expect, etc?
======
cleric
Hello.

Im a Swedish Sofware engineer and I have been working in Beijing for the last
~4 years. As others have pointed out, China is huge, and I have no experience
from working in Hongkong or Shanghai where the vibe is more international, or
so they say.

So what to expect? Smooth sailing, as long as you can deliver. There is a lot
of companies that value English speakers in general, so dont be surprised if
you get pampered.

There is no xenophobia to speak of, just cute curiosity. Its easy to find work
if you have the skills ( _cough_ we are hiring: hr@p1.com _cough_ ). Visas are
a hassle, and rules change regularly. But if you are working here for a
serious company and have the proper age/education/pazazz its usually just a
bunch of paper work.

Culturally, its all up to where you are. But for the big cities its a very
modern, interesting living.

I would never recommend going for the big 3(Tencent, Alibaba, Baidu) unless
you love going to a place with 15k employees. There is a lot of options.

Its a very hungry tech scene in general, for everything from classic websites
to apps. Almost nothing works here made by Google and Facebook, and boy its
easy to take that for granted, so alternatives needs to be build and localized
versions of everything is spawned.

For me personally I choose to work in China rather than to seek higher
education back in Sweden and I have been in on a startup that now have more
users that Scandinavia combined. Some crazy things I feel would never have
been possible outside of China. We are still considered a small startup in
China.

I could elaborate on this, but I think my best tip is just: Go, its easy to
fly home.

~~~
msvan
I had beers with the P1 team in Beijing about 3-4 years ago, so I probably met
you too :) Seemed like a cool little company at the time. I'm surprised that
you were able to get a Z visa (?) as I thought that required a degree?

OP: I can recommend living in China for the experience alone. You'll be
treated differently, but xenophobia is not the word I'd use. I'm white and my
experience was pretty great, though I'm not sure what it would be like for a
non-white person.

I imagine a software engineer would make less than in some Western markets,
but the cost of living is also substantially lower. Learning basic Chinese is
helpful, but in the biggest cities you can typically get by with English and
gestures.

~~~
bogomipz
I don't agree. English in Beijing is not so common, but Hong Kong its very
common.

~~~
matttheatheist
Not common at all in Hong Kong either... except in hotels and written on
restaurant menus and official documents. It's supposed to be a bilingual
city... but not in practice. You want English? Go to Singapore or Malaysia.

~~~
Guyag
That wasn't my experience when I was there. While it's true that the average
citizen may/will not speak English, it's more common than just in the high end
areas that you mentioned.

~~~
matttheatheist
I was in HK in 2013 for Chinese New Year. Lots of foreigners working there,
especially Indians and Australians, but the local population struggled with
English. I was in Singapore in 2010. Everyone there spoke fluent English.

------
seanmcdirmid
I'm an American researcher, going into almost 9 years working for Microsoft
China in Beijing. This will be my last month in the guo, I'm almost out (yeh!)
and will go work in the states for a company with a "Y" in its name.

First, you should specify if you are in a tier 1 city (BJ, SH, SZ, ...) or a
lesser tier city. For the former, you will be treated pretty "equally" in your
daily life. Americans don't get any special treatment, good or bad, anyways.

I found my job before going to China. I don't know how you could luck into
one, but it shouldn't be impossible. It depends on your skill and experience,
it might be challenging if you have nothing special to offer. Once you get the
job the visa is cake, though I've always relied on the company to do it for
me.

China is a great place for someone just getting started (though that makes it
harder to get a job), the nightlife is great, rent is relatively cheap even in
tier 1's (used to be much better), can get anywhere by taxi. Great firewall is
a PITA even with a VPN, pollution will wear you down overtime, the lack of
permanent acceptance (China is not an immigrant country) will make even the
most hardcore of us leave eventually. It can be a great way to spend 2-3 years
of your life, more is probably a bit too much, 9 years is definitely so.

English is the working language of my company, I've done ok with Chinese but
it hasn't improved in 9 years anyways. But most of your coworkers will be
Chinese, and will speak Chinese around you. You might not get invited to
meetings, or even be uninvited, because they'll want to do something in
Chinese even though they shouldn't. This is an American company mind you,
though my Chinese wife's experience at SAP and Nokia has been quite different
from my own (more foreigners, more English than Microsoft China).

------
reustle
> Is there xenophobia? Are Americans looked down upon or treated differently?

Having these sorts of questions means you should definitely visit for at least
a week or two before jumping into finding a job there. Head over and travel
around a bit, see if you feel comfortable. Visit some coworking spaces, talk
to people. If you have more questions on stuff like this, hit up some of the
Digital Nomad / Expat groups.

------
United857
I worked in Shanghai, China for 3 years for Ubisoft (game developer).

Senior-level experienced talent is still hard to find, so it's relatively easy
to get a job and work visa (which will be sponsored by your company once you
accept a offer) compared to first-world countries. This is doubly true if you
have a well known tech company on your resume (Google, FB, etc)

I'd recommend working for a multinational company (or at least a large well-
known Chinese corporation like Baidu, Tencent, Alibaba); as others have said,
they're used to foreigners and will make sure their written communications are
in English and make sure their employees have a minimum standard of English
proficiency. Any Mandarin Chinese you learn will give you brownie points
(unless you're ethnically Chinese; then they'll criticize your slightest
mistake ;) ).

Salary wise, you will make significantly more than locals. In absolute terms
you will likely make less than you would in the West, but due to the MUCH
cheaper cost of living, you can almost always lead a better "life". (I had a
~1200 square foot 3 bedroom apartment in one of the most prestigious districts
of Shanghai for $800 US/month (covered by my company). That was ~10 years ago
but I'd still expect the same relative price differential.) You will get a
good health insurance/benefits package that covers treatment at international
standard hospitals.

Shanghai and Beijing are the most foreigner friendly cities in (mainland)
China; huge expat population, many western restaurants, signage in English,
etc. Other cities not so much, but nothing a slight sense of adventure can't
conquer.

Any specific questions feel free to ask.

~~~
neverminder
> Shanghai and Beijing are the most foreigner friendly cities in China; huge
> expat population, many western restaurants, signage in English, etc. Other
> cities not so much, but nothing a slight sense of adventure can't conquer.

I thought that would be Hong Kong?

~~~
United857
Yeah, technically Hong Kong is part of China but is distinct from the mainland
and most HKers don't consider themselves Chinese.

It is indeed much more expat friendly than the mainland due to its British
colonial heritage. However, there are far fewer tech jobs in Hong Kong (unless
you want to work in the finance industry).

~~~
seanmcdirmid
They also pay poorly on general compared to mainland tier 1s, like Shenzhen
just over the border.

------
xiaoma
Yes, there is xenophobia. One would either have to live in an English-language
foreigner bubble or under a rock not to notice it. There is also xenophilia.
Many call it a "middle-ority complex".

Also, people are at risk every now and then simply due to news cycles and
political issues:
[http://shanghaiist.com/2016/07/16/nike_patriot_attack.php](http://shanghaiist.com/2016/07/16/nike_patriot_attack.php)

If you're not too ambitious and you keep your head down and stay in your
foreigner role, it's fine. If you do business or really try to dig in and
advance long-term, you'll have tremendous disadvantages. On the other hand, if
you're white, especially Nordic-looking, and you speak Chinese well, you'll
have a tremendous advantage in networking with powerful people most Chinese
would not have access to.

------
be5invis
First you have to remember that China itself's population is as large as the
entire western world, so things are completely different here. For example,
almost nobody in China use credit card for online payment: they use Alipay as
an alternative.

1\. Perhaps high salary? Non-local employees are rare here.

2\. No in tech companies, but yes in small cities and countries. In tech
companies and cities like Shanghai, forigners are treated better than locals,
seriously.

3\. Easier than getting a work in US.

4\. Don't send a clock as a gift :)

~~~
shultays
I googled about the clock gift

>In Chinese, saying ‘giving a clock’ (送钟 sòng zhōng /song jong/) sounds
exactly like the Chinese words for 'attending a funeral ritual' (送终 sòng
zhōng) and thus it is bad luck to gift clocks or watches. On top of that,
clocks and watches also symbolize the running out of time. This is especially
true for seniors. Giving a clock or watch as a gift is the biggest no-no in
Chinese culture.

[http://www.chinahighlights.com/festivals/things-not-give-
chi...](http://www.chinahighlights.com/festivals/things-not-give-chinese-new-
year.htm)

------
jason_slack
I know the OP asked about an American working in China. However, I am an
American, living in the US, working remotely for a company in China, about 3
years now. I thought I might offer a perspective from the opposite way.

The only difficulty I have is language. Sometimes I feel like I am being very
clear about something and I still can't convey it. So I take a step back and
break it down into a list. This helps. The time difference is manageable.
Everyone is really friendly.

The other interesting thing is that everyone in the China office knows about
the Americans working on their team. I get so many e-mails and I even won a
prize at our company party. I have a certain reputation it seems for not sugar
coating anything.

I did have one odd experience. It is common to use the term "Na Ge",
pronounced like "Niggaa" in China and and when I first heard it, I thought
that they were using the slang word we all should never use. It was weird
because the conversation they were having was about a recent crime. I asked
later about this because I couldn't shake that it was being used and it turns
out the meaning is something like "umm" or "that one" etc.

~~~
GordonS
Hah, when I first heard na ge (more like nay ge in Beijing) my first thought
was "I'll bet a lot of American ears prick up when they hear that"

~~~
jason_slack
and mine did as it was being used like every other sentence. Younger and older
were using it alike. I'm glad I asked for clarification.

------
wepple
> Is there xenophobia? Are Americans looked down upon or treated differently?

xenophobia, no. treated differently, definitely. often they won't know where
you fit into the social hierarchy, because, you don't. You don't have any
family or social history so they may treat you like gods or may somewhat
exclude you.

Language is a huge barrier. If you're in Shenzhen, there will be near-zero
english. You'll have to learn mandarin, which will take many years.

> Culturally, what are some things to avoid, things to expect, etc?

If you've never been to China, you likely have never eaten Chinese food
before. You may or may not like it a lot. You can find western food so it's
not a huge problem in most places.

given the language barrier and the difficulty communicating with the outside
world (you'll find ways to work around it, but it's still tough) it can be
quite isolating. You'll want to connect with other expats and try to build up
relationships with locals where/if possible.

China is less like the US than anywhere else I've been (including places like
Nigeria, Bolivia, Fiji, Qatar, etc). You can't be prepared for it, so just be
prepared to feel uncomfortable for a while.

I'd highly recommend visiting prior to considering a move.

~~~
klibertp
> You'll have to learn mandarin, which will take many years.

Why would it? Is it really that complex a language?

How different is learning Mandarin than learning German, French, Russian,
English or Greek? I understand that the writing system is probably much more
complex and requires much more memorization than the other languages
mentioned, but other than that, what about grammar, vocabulary, and
pronunciation?

~~~
wepple
For me the trickiest thing to wrap my head around is that Mandarin is heavily
tonal, and I've never had to deal with that in my life, making it a difficult
thing to introduce my brain to.

Some words mean 5 different things depending on how you vary the tone
throughout the word; I'm no stranger to simple variation as I had to deal with
emphasis and inflection while learning Spanish, but Mandarin is a whole other
kettle of fish.

I'm more than happy to accept that maybe I didn't put enough effort in or am
generally poor at languages (only speak two), however I struggled to learn a
handful of words per month.

------
dazhbog
It is awesome! I've been in Shenzhen with my startup for a year now and its
great.., I want to stay here forever. Apart from the slow internet through the
VPN, weird but interesting food and the language barrier, its a very exciting
and prosperous country to be in. Foreigners here are treated equally and
sometimes treated way better than they deserve!!

Regarding jobs, there are plenty, but it depends which province/city you want
to be in. Maybe not as highly paid as the US but there are definitely a lot of
cool, innovative, new and weird ideas and concepts that you won't see anywhere
in the world! I ask my Chinese friends what's the latest cool things you can
do with your phone and they always have these weird apps that maybe in 5 years
facebook or youtube will have.

For US citizens its pretty easy to get a visa, apart from the invitation
letter crap, you get like a 10 year multi-entry. Us europeans have a harder
time to get a 1 year one but not that bad in general :)

It is a bit of a shock the first time you come here and sometimes 2-4 weeks
might not be enough to love this place, but after a while you develop a sort
of stockholmy syndrome and all is good!

Hope it helps!

~~~
seanmcdirmid
US citizens have the same yearly working visa renewal as everyone else. The 10
year visa applies only to tourism and each stay is limited to 90 days or so.

~~~
dazhbog
Yes you are right! I've seen many small companies here use the "M" or even the
non-business "F" (catch-all) visa and that visa was issued with the full
knowledge of the locals here. No idea about other cities, SZ is in the special
economic zone so some rules are more "relaxed".

Regarding the entries, yes you need to go in and out every 30-90 days
unfortunately.

------
gadders
I have friends that are black that visited Guangzhou. They felt like something
of a novelty. On one occasion they went for a meal and had a crowd outside the
window staring at them, watching them eat. I think they may also have had
people trying to sneakily touch their hair on local transport as well.

So if you're a person of colour, your experiences may be different from the
other descriptions here.

~~~
Symbiote
I'm white, male and have long, blonde hair. I had similar reactions.

I must be in 50 people's photo collections.

Only one person asked me before photographing me. He was about 14, and on a
rare school trip to Nanjing from home somewhere in the north. He said he'd not
seen a white person before. I think everyone that photographed me was a
tourist.

~~~
GordonS
I can relate to this, I have had similar experiences across China (including
Nanjing), although much more rarely in Beijing and Shanghai

------
bing_dai
I would recommend that you look into jobs from the Big Three in China
(Tencent, Alibaba, Baidu, in that particular order).

All of them hire many people who do not hold a Chinese passport, so they have
mature system in place to handle some of the issues you may be concerned about
(visa, healthcare, etc). The culture in those companies would also be more
international than most Chinese companies of course.

You could also look into YC companies based in China. I saw a job posting on
HN a few days ago from a Shanghai-based YC company (I cannot remember the name
at this point).

Good luck! :-)

~~~
jellyksong
The YC company based in Shanghai is
[https://www.strikingly.com](https://www.strikingly.com).

------
civilian
Take some time browsing the /r/China subreddit. It contains a lot of
westerners who live in China.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/China/](https://www.reddit.com/r/China/)

I travelled in China (Beijing, Chengdu and some smaller towns) for three
weeks. It was different! Their customs are different but not that hard to get
used to. I think that as a (white) American, you will have positive racism
applied to you. It's crappy but it's true.

------
xt00
I worked in China for an American company and know others who have done it. I
was based in Shanghai. In that case it was pretty cool. Generally people from
US people are very curious about. I have seen a bit of racism toward people
from India, Malaysia, Japanese and Koreans. So if you are of that descent and
look like you are from one of those countries then people may treat you a
little differently.. Also if you don't know any Mandarin it may be pretty
difficult to get a job there unless it's for a foreign company. The visa your
best bet is to have a company support you to get it.. Basically you end up
needing some kind of support letters to do it. You also have to pass a
physical that you do in China if I remember correctly. Culturally in China
varies a ton across the country. Beijing Shanghai Shenzhen are all different.
I would say the simplest method to avoid issues is to just copy what you see
the locals do. Business meeting etiquette you can look up online but generally
it's not nearly as serious or formal in China compared to Japan. Probably one
thing would be not to joke to people about their title.. Like "oh you are CEO?
Ha!" That would probably be the most offensive thing..

------
jploh
Lived in Shenzhen, Southern China for a year in tech. Most foreigners I met
there were either English teachers or in trading.

I come from Southeast Asia so the treatment is different (white privilege is
extremely beneficial). Xenophobia is next to none. I managed to join a Chinese
football/soccer team and badminton group.

I didn't apply for the job in China on purpose so can't help you on that. The
difficulty of obtaining a visa sits on polar opposites. If your employer is a
legit and big organization, you can get a legit one.

Others I met in Shenzhen just went with a business visa good for 30 days. This
worked fine in this city since you can simply take a train to Hong Kong and
reset your stay. Get a passport with more pages if you plan to do this.

Culture - most Chinese are very tolerant or don't care at all. I've heard
other people say that Chinese are rude/impolite. You get used to it or get too
tired of it.

~~~
Guyag
> I've heard other people say that Chinese are rude/impolite.

In casual (especially informal) conversation I'd say there's a cultural norm
of being more direct than we are in the west. This isn't, I don't think, in an
attempt to offend. That swings the other way in business (or so I have heard)
where criticism is carefully constructed (at least within a business) to
minimise any potential offence given. YMMV.

------
wangchow
Do a quick search for "smog in china" you'll probably want to bring a gas
mask.

------
zerr
It is also interesting for Japan. E.g. if you leave on time (i.e. don't do
overtimes), take 30+ days vacation, etc... what happens? :)

~~~
charlesdm
Send patio11 an e-mail. He has previous experience with working 60 hour weeks
in Japan.

~~~
zerr
So being a gaijin doesn't help here? (there)

~~~
stonemetal
Japan is pretty Xenophobic. The whole article is interesting but if you search
for "On Being A Foreigner In Japan" it gets right to the point.

[http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-
japan/](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/)

------
hacker42
I would also be interested whether one takes notice of the oppressiveness of
the Chinese government, e.g. the Great Firewall of China.

~~~
cloudjacker
the irony being that only Americans care about that

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Americans are much more oblivious than Europeans. Most of my foreign
colleagues over the years have been from Europe, and would complain about it
more than me. Other Asians (korean and Japanese) don't mention it much.

------
sonofbedlan
I have been working in Shanghai for about six and a half years now and don't
think I would live anywhere else in China except maybe Hong Kong. Shanghai has
a very vibrant international community with a fairly comfortable standard of
living ( minus the occasional bad pollution ). There is not a significant
amount of xenophobia in the first tier cities though outside of these you are
generally looked at as an oddity if you count that. You will never be chinese
though so some doors will always be closed to you.

It is difficult to find a job without being here but on the ground there are
opportunities. If you are not here companies see that as a liability. Of
foreigners abroad we have hired to work in China there is about a 50% washout
rate in the first year. Being here is seen as being a more reliable hire.

Regarding visa a good company will provide a z visa for you. Anyone offering
less isn't a good company. Pay is less then the states generally but cost of
living is lower. As in the rest of the world there is high demand for good
software developers. Check smartshanghai.com, Shanghaiexpat.com,
creativehunt.com, and craigslist Shanghai for more expat focused jobs. If you
are interested in fintech we are hiring through hr@itr.cn.

Overall the business China is more predatory then the states. More weight is
often put on relationships then talent. Coming from the west it takes a few
years to really understand this culture.

------
frakkingcylons
So I'm half-Chinese, grew up in America, and I don't know Mandarin. Any
American-born Chinese with experience working/living in China with stories to
share?

------
allan_s
Hello

I'm a French Software engineer and I've been working in China for 5 years (and
now back in France)

As someone who has worker in IT both in the education part (I was teaching CS
in a 3 tier small city of 4 million inhabitants) and a startup/webshop in
Shanghai I can only recommend you to try the experience.

As other have said life there is extremly different. If you're in
Shanghai/Beijing, you can still find places to eat/live that will make you
feel like home, but I think it's missing the point.

I would say the more you're ready to try to "mix in", the bigger the
opportunity will be. I finished with a near fluent Chinese fluent level (I can
perfectly follow business and informal conversation, and get the rough meaning
from written contract in Mandarin) and I think that's what definitely helped
me to finish CTO of the company I was working in. (~60 employees, 99% Chinese,
doing businesses with other Chinese companies)

Chinese is a very easy language once you've stopped trying to relate to
English and you see start seing learning chinese as gathering "sentences" and
speaking Chinese as "i take this sentence I heard last time and I replace this
word by that one" (as there's no conjugation, plural etc.) and it will
definitely helped relationship of any kind, especially if you look "foreigner"

On the technical side, speaking chinese will help you enter in the companies
were people still do php4 without framework nor testing nor versionning (SVN
if you're lucky) because there's no harsh competition. So arriving in this
kind of company with your ability to bring them even what you would consider
"plain old MVC framework" will increase their efficiency by several times.
(and if the company was there, it's that it was profitable, most of the time
because of the manager/commercial having a good network, so if you're now able
to make technical side profitable too, they will soon ask you to
supervise/teach/manage the whole set of developers). And you will be invited
to meeting with the customer too as it will give face to the company "hey
we're a good company, we can hire laowai foreigners".

There's a lot more to say but I think most of people here have already covered
the other aspect of living and working in china

------
rahimnathwani
"How difficult is it to find a job? How about a visa?"

If you have a degree and 2 years' post-degree work experience, your employer
will have no problem sponsoring your work permit and visa. The process
requires multiple steps and is often outsourced, so not every company will be
willing to do it. But if they have at least one foreign employee then that's a
good sign.

I'm assuming that you don't speak Chinese. For some jobs, this is a show-
stopper or _major_ disadvantage. There are other developers just as good as
you, but who can read/write/speak/listen to communicate. BUT for software
development jobs with many foreign companies (large ones like Amazon, or small
game studios) you'll be on a level playing field with someone who speaks
Chinese.

"Is there xenophobia? Are Americans looked down upon or treated differently?"

Americans are not looked down upon at all. Most Chinese I've met have respect
for America's achievements and are aware of generally higher living standards
there. Many white male Americans find more dating options in China than they
did back home. (I'm neither white nor American, so have only heard this second
hand.)

------
hushuitian
FYI.If you can tolerate bad air quality and traffic jam,welcome to
Beijing.Generally speaking,Beijing is the best place to find a software
related job in China.There is almost no xenophobia in big cities like Beijing
in China.Instead you will be warmly welcomed by your local
colleagues/friends.It should be very easy for you to find a job in Beijing if
you are middle or high level experienced software engineer in either startups
or big companies.The company that wants to hire you will help you to apply a
work visa for you. Basically you can freely say and ask anything you want
privately in English. There are two kind of voices here.One voice is from
official/government.Another one is from netizen via Weibo/WeChat,etc. I am a
native Chinese living in Beijing since 2000 and happened to have had a few
months work experience in each of Silicon Valley,CA,USA and Bangalore,India
and half a year in Austin,TX,USA and having worked with a lot of
colleagues/friends from a dozen of countries. You are welcome to contact me
via WeChat if I could be any kind of help to you in Beijing.My WeChat ID is
1832903667.Thanks!

------
epynonymous
have been in shanghai for 9 years working for a silicon valley company.

there's obviously a cost associated with obtaining a working visa, but i don't
know the details or the extent of how much a burden that is going to be on the
company.

if you don't speak chinese (or write), i think you'll be limited to working
for multinational companies (mnc's) like microsoft, emc, vmware, cisco, etc.
google has an office here, but the work being done is not very interesting,
localization and local advertising. you should probably forget about local
companies like alibaba, baidu, etc.

i would suggest you not think too much about xenophobia, or treatment, or
cultural differences, if it's really bothering you that much then i suggest
you stick to your country and don't venture abroad. obviously every
environment/country/company has its challenges so being adaptable is a must.

the questions you should ask yourself:

1\. why do you want to be in china? 2\. what do you want in your career? 3\.
what is it in china that i cannot get from current location?

~~~
are595
Mind sharing what company? Trying to apply to international companies that
wouldn't mind sending people abroad.

------
earlz
I actually just accepted a job offer working remotely for a cryptocurrency
related startup. I'm in the US and they're based out of Shanghai. So far it's
been pretty nice, but since I'm going to be working remote (though I intend to
visit) I don't have any advice to give heh

------
auganov
It's trivial to get a job and a work visa. If you just wanna go work there for
a bit and go back home - go for it.

But if want to get legit stock options, start a startup or generally settle
down then forget about it. You will be legally discriminated against. Not
worth it.

------
SurrealSoul
Culturally, I was scared of the streets and the public transportation can be
really busy at times. However the people are really nice and curious to talk
with you. Anyone with any English skills will say hello to you and are
generally extremely nice!

------
kqia040
I did an 8months stint doing some data modelling at a Chinese start-up in
Beijing.

Visa was difficult but company culture there really respects people who are
experienced and innovative. Most the workers there aren't really passionate
about what they do (From my understanding, most Chinese startups don't give
equity to their employees)

English is a huge advantage as we have access to an awesome global community
of people.

Pay is surprisingly good, but living cost in Beijing is deceivingly high as
well.

~~~
kqia040
There are plenty of expats in China. You could totally get away with not being
able to speak any Chinese and still live comfortably in the big cities.

------
pinkskip
white is right in china.

------
contingencies
I have been in China on and off for 15 years. I have worked for others,
started businesses myself, and worked for foreign businesses online.

Overall question first. In terms of 'difficulty' to work, I suppose the key
issues are: language, office culture, visa situation, job availability,
overheads.

Language is really not a problem if you work for any reasonable company as all
young people can speak some English and basic spoken Chinese is not hard to
pick up with a little effort once you are in the environment.

Office culture is highly company dependent: I have interviewed at companies
with stupid amounts of capital and connections but no idea what they were
doing whose upper management were so afraid of a foreigner in their midst
(with technical knowledge) that they flat out refused to hire ("threat"
alarm), even though it was self-evident we would have taken the company good
places together. On the other hand, there are companies where it would be
fantastic. In general, it won't be as easy as the west, and it may be
difficult or even unworkable. Be careful with this. You can sidestep this by
starting something yourself.

Visas became much harder in 2007, before the 2008 Olympics, and never got
easier. It is true that Americans can get 10 years repeat-entry visas (60 or
90 days per stay), you are not allowed to work on them, though many, many,
many, many people do. I believe Canadians and UK citizens may be able to get
these now or soon. In general, it is illegal to 'work' (as in sit in an office
every day, receive a Chinese salary) on these visas, but you can definitely
'work' in the sense of consulting on the ground from an international position
without legal recourse. It's all about how you structure your alleged
situation to authorities, if they come asking, which they basically won't. The
safest is to get paid overseas, the next safest is probably to be paid cash.
Getting paid in to a local bank account on a non-work visa is asking for
problems. You can sidestep this by starting something yourself, which gives
you a work visa.

Job availability wise, probably the larger east-coast cities are OK. Outside
of those cities, there is almost nothing, unless you want to compete with
locals for web development or other piecemeal work, which is a losing bet in
my observation. You can sidestep this by starting something yourself.

Overheads wise, you can get by nicely on about the same as in Europe, which is
to say hotels + food + transport + visa overheads would be 200-1000元/day
(about USD$30-150/day) depending upon what kind of city you are in and how
much consumption you can pack in. In second tier cities, I would say 400元
(USD$60) is a fair budget, whereas in the east coast first tier cities perhaps
800元 (USD$120) is more realistic. You can halve this if you have your own
house or apartment, which is basically viable if you are staying 6 months or
longer. Foreigners often have share houses available in larger cities, if you
want to dip a foot in without total commitment to your own space.

What to expect? Surprises, weird cultural adjustments, great food variety,
honestly friendly people, less regulation.

Xenophobia? Not usually, it is rare but it does exist.

Culturally, Chinese are pretty straight shooters ... more so than westerners,
in my opinion. You can make friends easily, but the depth of a friendship is
often defined by how much effort you put in to maintaining it. Mutual favors
can make the world go around. Banquets solidify friendships, and are awesome.

What sort of work would you like to do? A good way to start may be identifying
companies working in the areas you would like to gain experience in, then
simply volunteer to work for them for awhile (say 3 months) possibly for some
token cash-in-hand salary with a view towards a full time position. It will
not cost you much and you can arrive on your own visa, you are not 'working'
(as you are 'not' receiving money) and you maintain total freedom with regards
to leaving / changing your situation / looking elsewhere while you clue up and
decide on your next move.

City wise, Shenzhen or other Guangdong cities and parts of Zhejiang and Fujian
provinces are good for a firmware focus. From a traditional software-focus,
Chengdu, Shenzhen, Shanghai, or Beijing are probably the big ones.

Looking back coming to China was the best thing I ever did in life - I'm an
Australian who's lived in Europe and America. It's not for everyone, but if
you can make it work you'll be richly rewarded in experience.

