
The Secret to a Happy Marriage: Do the Dishes, Put Out, Don’t Talk So Much - alexwestholm
http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/02/14/the-secret-to-a-happy-marriage-do-the-dishes-put-out-don%E2%80%99t-talk-so-much/
======
abalashov
This is the first popular publication article I've seen that has given the
very important cognitive overload aspect of nagging--and especially multi-
pronged nagging litany, which seems to be the most common kind--the treatment
it deserves:

    
    
       But when it comes to nagging reminders about what your
       spouse still has to do after a long day working for the 
       man—take out the recycling, walk the dog, write a 
       thank-you letter, defrost the chicken, fix the 
       stereo—keep a lid on it.  Economists talk about
       “information processing costs,” or the costs incurred 
       from processing, absorbing and filtering information. 
       When information processing costs get too high, we 
       tend to become paralyzed.

~~~
bartonfink
Now I just need to figure out a good way to pass that hint along to my wife
without her inferring that I hate her and don't ever want to speak to her
about anything.

~~~
r00fus
Find a way to infect her friend with this info/site. They'll be more likely to
influence her than you.

~~~
tertius
I always found this very scary. If I'm not the largest influencer
(positive/negative) then I have bigger problems to worry about.

~~~
momotomo
In my experience if I'm her largest influence, then something's gone horribly
wrong. I don't mean to be offensive, but this concept sounds more like
codependency than a partnership.

~~~
tertius
Well, I can balance it by saying that largest doesn't mean only.

~~~
momotomo
Yeah, sorry my initial reply was borderline knee jerk. I'm even questionable
on even largest, but it's all on the back of my own experience.

The successful relationships I've had were always ones where my partner had
their own, multiple criteria for happiness. I want to be at most say, a third
of someone's life and contribute as much to their emotional state.

Between work, hobbies, social circles, working out, etc etc, I've always found
relationships to fit into that but they place about no. 3-4, and anecdotally,
its always made for better outcomes. When they hit no. 1 or 2, it means we're
both giving up on something that's a significant part of our character, and
I've never found it to be a positive indicator.

------
hartror
I would group it all into one tip:

 _Make an effort with your relationship._

Like everything good in life it takes work to have a good relationship. If you
make an effort to have a good relationship, applying thought and energy day to
day, you will grow a healthy satisfying relationship.

~~~
yummyfajitas
This works well for women, not so well for men.

For men, typically making a visible effort will cause your spouse to perceive
you as weak and low value. This will only make things worse.

~~~
jedsmith
_[citation needed]_

~~~
byrneseyeview
I recommend _The Red Queen_ if you want to start learning about this. The
short answer: men largely choose mates based on looks; women choose based more
on social status. Signalling low social status reduces male attractiveness;
signalling high social status raises it.

n = 1, but this has worked for me. Deliberately act like you can take it or
leave it, and you're unlikely to be left. (And note that women initiate the
majority of breakups and divorces, so you're not risking much if you risk a
breakup.)

~~~
haploid
Both you and yummyfajitas are making the classic error of espousing an
unpopular opinion amongst people who tend to irrationally believe magical
romantic things about evolved bags of meat.

It's a fairly well established biological fact( caveat - there are of course
exceptions )that female primates, including humans, respond sexually favorably
toward high status behavior on the part of males.

The Red Queen is a good book, but there are countless others. Sperm Wars, Sex
At Dawn, The Evolution of Desire, and myriad academic papers that these books
reference, paint a very clear picture of female sexuality that few will ever
want to believe.

n=1 is irrelevant in this discussion. As far as I'm concerned, the actual
scientific evidence is quite clear on this matter.

Edit: removed reference to emo hipsters. Not constructive.

~~~
cynicalkane
Both you and yummyfajitas are making the classic error of falling for cynical
pop-science just so stories. This evolutionary psychology and biology stuff
applied to humans is still pretty new and pretty far from "well established
biological fact", and it comes with all the caveats of human behavioral
research plus the added trappings of being a scientific fad.

In particular, there is plenty of room in evo-psych for pair bonding and long
term relationships. Historically and across diverse cultures these
relationships have generally been the dominant method of producing children,
so I'd say it's a pretty OK evolutionary strategy. The 'scientific' evidence
is all around you, evolved bag of meat.

And in long term relationships, effort is not optional.

~~~
khafra
Note that for many of us human males, it takes a huge effort to avoid seeming
needy, predict our significant other's desires, and act to fulfill those
desires in a dominant and take-charge kind of way. It's quite a bit harder
than making an effort and showing it.

------
narrator
I think American women forget that marriage is a team sport not a struggle for
feudal dominance of one partner over the other. It seems with American women
there is always a very precise accounting of slights, perceived or otherwise,
that are used to demand payment in humiliation or suffering of the other. It's
like they're on the "Women team", always thinking to themselves what the
"Women team leaders" will think of them in every situation in their struggle
against the multiple centuries of male patriarchy-- instead of being on the
family team. They destroy relationships to please the contrived abstract
ideals they've been indoctrinated to worship and fight against their desires
for a relationship based on team work and mutual shared goals.

~~~
tertius
Those who do what you suggest should be taught in a loving relationship how
negative their behaviour is. Even if the media encourages it.

If there is dominance by either partner, the relationship will have difficulty
staying healthy in the long run.

As you say, family first. Both should view the other as having more importance
than themselves. Not just one or neither.

~~~
derefr
> If there is dominance by either partner, the relationship will have
> difficulty staying healthy in the long run.

I think you mean, if there is dominance by _both_ partners (i.e. one partner
asserts dominance and the other resents them for it, or both partners vie for
dominance), the relationship will have difficulty staying healthy in the long
run. Well-defined D/s relationships, on the other hand, can be quite healthy.

------
mhb
Working link:

[http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/02/14/the-secret-
to-a...](http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/02/14/the-secret-to-a-happy-
marriage-do-the-dishes-put-out-don%E2%80%99t-talk-so-much/)

~~~
faitswulff
Thank you.

------
3pt14159
Comparative advantage is the name of the game. My parents have been doing that
for years, even when my mom ends up with some manly work (tall house + lots of
Christmas lights) and my dad ends up with some non-manly work. It works pretty
well for them.

They even optimized which kid helps them, I worked better with my mom (I was
all about getting a _list_ of chores and powering through them when I had
time, and so is she), so I ended up working with her for the weekly chores.
Shutting up and getting stuff done really does make one happy.

~~~
marssaxman
My wife and I just assign each job to whichever of us is less annoyed by
having to do it, and somehow it all seems to balance out. She cleans the
bathrooms and does the laundry, I sweep and vacuum and take out the trash, she
makes the coffee in the morning and I turn off the lights at night. We
certainly aim to be equal partners in our marriage, but instead of tallying
everything up for some perfectly fair 50/50 division, we try to embrace our
differences and specialize in what we're good at.

Sometimes the breakdown does look disturbingly similar to the old traditional
gender roles, but sometimes it really doesn't - I do the mending, for example,
and she takes the car in for service. I'm sure we are both influenced by the
traditional sexism of the societies we grew up in, but whatever the reasons
for our choices, each of us pretty much gets to do what we think of as the
easy or inconsequential chores while our partner tackles the nasty, time-
consuming, or obnoxious ones.

~~~
bzbarsky
> Sometimes the breakdown does look disturbingly similar to > the old
> traditional gender roles

That seems somewhat inevitable. A lot of those gender roles are there
precisely for comparative advantage and "do the thing that annoys you less"
reasons. It just happens that statistically fewer men are annoyed by trash
(e.g. they never get pregnant, so don't have months-long periods when they
just can't deal with it at all), women are better at taking care of infants
(e.g. can often feed them more easiy), and so forth. On average, etc. ;)

~~~
Psyonic
Excuse my ignorance, but why does being pregnant specifically cause an
aversion to taking out the trash? The smell?

~~~
bzbarsky
The smell is part of it. For some women also the sight, or even just the
thought of either one. On average, pregnant women tend to react much more
strongly to anything rotten or possibly-rotten; the details will tend to vary
from person to person, of course.

------
brc
The comments in that article are bizarre - there's a lot of frothing going on.
Particularly from young, unmarried women who seem to have missed the point of
the article. It's like they hate the idea of being a housewife so much they
want to attack anything that even remotely suggests it.

The problem in all this venting is that the advice is given to both sexes - it
just discusses using comparative advantage to split up tasks, don't nag each
other and slip between the sheets as much as possible. If you realise that the
advice could equally apply to a gay couple you can see there actually isn't
any gender bias in the article at all.

------
patrickgzill
Marriage is not "50/50" ... it is 100/100 ...

~~~
kbatten
I'm pretty sure both of those evaluate to the same value.

~~~
patrickgzill
Since the shorthand expression is for percentages, it implicitly expands to
50/100:50/100 (as 50% = 50/100) , or in more absolute terms, 0.5:0.5 .

While 100/100 expands to 100/100:100/100 , or 1:1 of course.

You might say the ratios are equivalent, but of course, you have ignored the
units (if a relationship can have units).

~~~
Natsu
You either compared incomparable things to begin with or ended up with a
scalar value when you divided them. Units can be divided, too. The slash in
m/s is there for a reason.

We'd do better to stick to the original point: that both partners should do
their best rather than a half-ass job. A point I happen to agree with. Numbers
just get in the way.

~~~
patrickgzill
I admit it is innumerate slang to write "50/50" when really it means
"(item/effort/task) is split 50% among 2 people" ... so given HN's general
level of math ability, I should have phrased it better.

------
megamark16
That's exactly what I do, and my wife and I agree that we have a pretty happy
marriage :-)

------
theorique
(warning - ZOMG TEH POTENTIAL SEXISM alert!)

This sounds a lot like the advice to women from the Tom Leykis show: "Stay
slim, Long hair, sex anytime, shut up!"

------
civilian
A lot of you are getting caught up in stereotypes. When I read this article I
didn't see it as being specifically written for men or women-- shouldn't both
parties be doing these things?

------
kingkawn
Having fun together rather than parsing out your problems is the key to
success. Sometimes you have to do the Talk, but if it becomes the norm you're
doomed.

------
webuiarchitect
You can hardly call that a 'marriage'. Its just another adjustment you would
do even with your roommate.

I've been married for last 8 years and also have a kid. I feel, the best of
marriage is lived when you share everything - talk out every feeling - help
each other achieve the small dreams - LIVE together! Every relationship, even
a mother-child/friends/brother-sister - they all have conflicts - and most of
it because of expectations. Without 'expectations' there cannot exist a
relation. The key is to achieve the balance - try to give enough space/freedom
to each other so that both gets to do the things they enjoy the most - try to
find your happiness in the same, if you can, or at least support it in some
way.

For household responsibilities, it should be equally and mutually shared. But
'don't talk so much' is definitely not the approach to avoid conflicts. We are
not machines; the whole point of 'living' is to 'share'; and Humans Do Need to
Share. What else do you need to marry for? Better stay bachelor, if you don't
think you can shoulder the responsibility to 'share' and handle
'expectations'.

------
yatacc
it seem ridiculous to tell married people they should have sex (with each
other)

lmao on the (with each other) emphasis :)

------
rmah
I posted a link to the book the WSJ article is based on earlier today:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2218045>

------
chopsueyar
Do the dishes. Buying a dishwasher was one of the best purchases for our
relationship.

~~~
Joakal
Don't forget to do the minimum that's expected at least. eg cleaning up after
oneself. Putting dishes in the sink != cleaning up. Especially if they have
time to do it.

------
johngalt
The secret to writing a linkbait title: reinforce stereotypes.

~~~
smallblacksun
Stereotypes exist for a reason.

~~~
jtbigwoo
Because it's easier than critical thinking?

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Aren't stereotypes basically a kind of heuristic?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristic>

------
kungfooey
I've been following the author's blog at <http://www.spousonomics.com/> \-
some fluff, but in general it's pretty good.

------
sin7
Marriage satisfaction = love making - fighting

~~~
tertius
You are in error sir.

Marriage Satisfaction = Fighting (or Total Conflict) - Unresolved Conflict

Conflict among other things brings you closer together. A couple who "fight"
well will stay together.

~~~
sin7
I was a little off. I could not remember the actual heuristic.

marital happiness = rate of lovemaking - rate of arguments

Source: [http://books.google.com/books?id=_0H8gwj4a1MC&pg=PA393&#...</a>

~~~
tertius
I would define arguments differently than I would conflict (or resolved
conflict) I guess.

So that might have some truth but I believe it blurs the truth by making the
reader or observer (of research) believe that arguing/conflict is bad.

------
tt
There's a saying in Vietnamese culture that goes along the line of "Compatible
husband and wife can empty the Pacific." I live by that.

------
RyanMcGreal
Another perpetually useful perspective is the 2006 NY Times article on using
animal training techniques to manage intramarital conflict:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/fashion/25love.html?_r=1&#...</a>

------
eapen
My wife's take: _"huh! Didn't care much for the article coz though she makes
some good points, I felt like it's putting it all on the woman!! Even if she
says "spouse" several times, it's like she's saying spouse, but meaning
wife... I have to agree with her sister about trying to put women back 50
years!! Not surprising you, meaning a guy, would like it though!! ;-D It has
everything a husband would want his ideal wife to do!"_

------
fefzero
"But the real reason [married people gain weight] is moral hazard, or the
tendency to take more risks and behave more irresponsibly when there are no
consequences."

I'd never equated being overweight as behaving irresponsibly. If everyone
thought this way, would we all be thinner? If my spouse can't nag me to lose
weight (see #1), is there anything she could do to encourage it, or is it all
on me?

~~~
RickHull
Funny, I can't imagine being overweight as anything but irresponsible (mod
specific health issues). And it is pretty much all on you.

One thing that can be very helpful is to schedule exercise with other people
(e.g. spouse). It's easier to get going with a group, it's more fun, and there
is a social cost to canceling. You don't even have to do the same exercises --
just go to the gym or pool or park or whatever and do your thing.

i.e. don't nag against bad activities, but support and encourage wholesome
ones in their place.

~~~
jobrahms
I agree that in the end it's personal responsibility that determines whether
you're overweight or healthy. But it has to be said that it has become more
difficult to be thin (at least in western societies) given the ease with which
most of us can obtain high energy/fat foods. Add to that the fact that most
food producers have profit margins as their motivators instead of the
population's health, and you can see why it's getting harder.

~~~
yummyfajitas
If people weren't buying and eating crap, food producers would attempt to
increase their profit margins by selling healthy food.

~~~
jobrahms
Agree completely. The point is that food producers are playing (wittingly or
not) into the fact that our human biology is geared towards the storage of
fat. Your body's primal survival mechanism is a hard thing to overcome. In
more scarce times, people spent most of their energy in the pursuit of finding
something to eat. Now you use about 8 calories to reach out your car window,
grab your 1500 calorie supersized meal, and set it on your passenger seat.

------
kgermino
404

Edit: Working link, courtesy mhb [http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-
market/2011/02/14/the-secret-to-a...](http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-
market/2011/02/14/the-secret-to-a-happy-marriage-do-the-dishes-put-out-
don%E2%80%99t-talk-so-much/)

------
teyc
Comparative advantage does not work in marriages. All hands on is much better.
It is the same with family cookouts, spring cleaning, etc. More hands, less
work, and there is less cognitive load whether work is being doled out fairly.

------
sigzero
"A happy wife is a happy life."

------
jscore
Maybe in America.

Things work very differently in the rest of the world.

------
OasisG
Then party like it's 1950.

ETA: With the growing number of men who refuse to pick up every check, plan
every date/event, act as sole provider for the family, purchase gifts
regularly for their other half, etc. for fear of marrying a woman who is too
focused on money... I'm really beginning to wonder what women are getting out
of this marriage deal anymore.

~~~
tptacek
I would like to know more about the 4 people that voted this comment up from
zero.

~~~
dpritchett
I'd like to know why my comment pointing out the inherent flaw in the GP's
argument (this advice works equally well for married people of either gender)
was killed.

