

How Dead is WebOS? - spicerunner
http://www.kiwiluv.com/techblog/?p=1297
New HP devices are coming out and folks are migrating to HTML/CSS/Javascript frameworks, which was always the case for WebOS.  Does it have a chance for third place in the smartphone market after it's precipitous downfall?
======
modernerd
I was given a free Pre2 by Palm's Developer Relations Team as a development
device. After a week with the thing, I fully expected to be clawing at my
iPhone, performing 40 Hail Steves, and vowing never to stray again.

Instead, I haven't touched the iPhone for eight weeks. WebOS is a delight, and
I wish I'd had the guts to try it sooner; not only is the OS better thought
out in many ways (multi tasking, global app menus, discreet notifications, OTA
system updates, polished app switching, 'just type' launcher, the gesture
area, and more) but the Enyo development kit has been easy to pick up, and
hardware touches -- like the Touchstone charging dock -- make the device a joy
to live with.

I'm currently porting an iOS app to WebOS, and will be launching future apps
on both platforms, even though the WebOS userbase falls short of iOS and
Android's reach. In short, I feel really positive about WebOS, and hope HP's
acquisition of Palm will be the kick it needs to find the success it deserves.

~~~
palish
How did you get a free Pre 2?

I've been chomping at the bit to develop for anything besides my iPhone. I
just can't afford any new phone right now.

~~~
Xuzz
I got one from this offer too. They announced it on their blog [1] a few
months back, I'm not sure if it's still open, but there's definitely no harm
in trying.

[1]: [http://pdnblog.palm.com/2011/02/mojo-and-enyo-two-great-
oppo...](http://pdnblog.palm.com/2011/02/mojo-and-enyo-two-great-
opportunities/)

------
eekfuh
I've developed a fairly well known (to the webos community) application. I had
a top 10 app in Palm's million dollar contest. I've been on their print and
web promotional tools and featured several times in their app catalog... yet I
feel and felt that HP and Palm both have dropped the ball when it has come to
developing for WebOS. They have terrible, poorly documented API's.

I think its all fine and dandy that they have semi-rewarded me with some free
advertising, but as a developer, I really only care about writing a killer app
and if there is no way to do certain things, or making me write a C++ browser
extension just to properly cURL data, well its just not worth my time.

Being able to phonegap applications will help their count, but most developers
know, those apps never feel purely native and the apps typically are extremely
low powered, unintelligent apps.

I think that accounting for all that might be more of a recipe for disaster.
Poor usability and a lack of strong apps, except for the occasional game
(written in C++ as a browser plugin so they can opengl).

~~~
piranha
So if writing a browser extension in C++ is hard, then what about writing
whole application in Objective C instead of writing in JS? I'm genuinely
interested what do you consider easier platform to develop, since I've just
tried out Enyo and I really like it.

~~~
eekfuh
It's not really about the language, it was more about the API's available. I
write iPhone apps also and the frameworks that Apple has developed are far
superior and far more reaching than anything Palm/HP has done.

Their API's available to the browser extensions are basically just opengl
related.

------
JoelSutherland
I had a Pre for two years, just got the Nexus S and my wife has an iPhone 4.
Without question, the biggest UX differences between the platforms are:

1\. General responsiveness (iPhone leads)

2\. Notifications (iPhone trails dramatically)

3\. Web Page as a 1st class OS object. (WebOS is the only one that does this)

This third point is NEVER discussed. With Android and iOS, you have to go to
the browser and then jump to a particular tab. When multi-tasking, this forces
you to do more clicks through two different mental models. In WebOS,
everything is a card. When you're trying to pull ESPN back up, you seek ESPN,
not 'browser'.

Given google's position on the web, I am just surprised they haven't done a
better job of this. It makes sense that Apple is making webpages 2nd class
citizens, they want a 30% cut.

~~~
jonah

      In WebOS, everything is a card. When you're trying to pull ESPN back up, you seek ESPN, not 'browser'.
    

That I like. It harkens back to the days of non-tabbed browsers on the
desktop. But while the desktop is conducive to working with many tabs
successfully (UX- and hardware-wise) on mobile, it makes a lot more sense to
have a single level of windowing rather than the nesting a tabbed browser
gives you.

~~~
jdub
... but not when you have deliciously usable and tactile "cards". :-)

~~~
jonah
Right. And by promoting each "tab" to its own "card" at the same level as each
other "app" you benefit from that.

~~~
jdub
Plus in webOS 2.x, stacks reduce the cognitive load of having too many
(seemingly) unrelated cards.

------
fuzionmonkey
Some things about WebOS are absolutely fantastic. My first smartphone was a
Pre Plus when it came out on Verizon for like $40.

The software was pretty great. The multitasking was perfect, Synergy was
awesome. It wasn't quite as polished in some areas as iOS, but some things
were also drastically superior. Also the inductive charging was awesome as
well.

I got an iPhone on Verizon when it came out, and I really miss the
multitasking. But what I don't miss is the hardware.

My Pre was literally starting to fall apart. It was all cheap, flimsy plastic,
not durable at all. The difference in build quality of the iPhone was
astonishing. And dramatic noticeable speed improvement.

WebOS was crippled by its horrible hardware. The software was competitive,
even the best at times, but the Pre was just terrible hardware. It didn't have
very fast specs, and the phone itself wasn't durable or high quality.

~~~
mjs
Agreed, webOS suffers from some small-ish fit and finish problems, and much
larger marketing and (lack of) application problems.

webOS 1.0 did do a lot of wacky/strange things that were annoying, though not
bad enough for the phone to be useless. As well as the hardware problems,
you'd get stuff like like the alarm going off a minute before it was supposed
to (going by the phone's own time display). It would also repeatedly tell you
every few minutes that it was unable to send an email message when no network
was available.

They're reduced the number of annoyances in webOS 2.0, though, so I am hopeful
for the Pre 3. (It also now has close to acceptable performance, instead of
completely unacceptable performance.)

The marketing and app problems are much more difficult to solve; I'm not sure
what they can do there. Throwing money at it, maybe...

------
shaggy
Anyone who takes an objective look at iOS vs. Android vs. webOS will see that
webOS is the technologically superior platform. The UI is fantastic and smooth
and many of other current mobile platforms are starting to "borrow" from it.
The playbook, android and even iOS to a certain extent. If HP markets the
hardware and software correctly and they do a good job of attracting quality
developers it will be a force.

~~~
wvenable
> current mobile platforms are starting to "borrow" from it

The question is, will the other mobile platforms borrow from it fast enough to
make it totally irrelevant.

------
tolmasky
"That fragmentation is driving developers to embrace frameworks such as
PhoneGap, which WebOS has wholeheartedly adopted. "

Honest question: _really?_ Is anyone actually using this stuff in a serious
way? I ask because I use only iOS basically so I may genuinely be missing this
revolution that is taking place, but at least on iOS I have never downloaded
an app that was phonegap, nor do I think any significant charting apps use it.
Is it widely used for custom built apps or something? Or used a lot in
android? Or is it actually not being used a lot?

~~~
strmpnk
I've seen quite a few apps written in phone gap work really well on iOS
devices. I think many people are surprised how well an apps experience can be
with this tech... granted, lots of people don't know that large numbers of
apps are really just a web view wired to a minimal obj-c shell so I think the
approach is pretty successful if not the framework itself.

~~~
eddieplan9
A counter-example is Safari To Go - Safari Book Online's iPad app, which they
withdrew due to bad review:
[http://blog.safaribooksonline.com/2010/11/24/ipad-app-
safari...](http://blog.safaribooksonline.com/2010/11/24/ipad-app-safari-to-go-
update-november-24-2010/)

Most people agreed that PhoneGap was the wrong framework. It's not that
PhoneGap is intrinsically bad - it is not - but that it is not for every task,
and more likely, it is not good for most tasks that are more than a short
load-lookup-leave cycle.

------
megaman821
If you would asked me a year ago, I would have thought webOS had no chance
given its slow pace of development. Yet the rev one tablet offerings from
Google and RIM are basically betas so HP has a good chance of catching up.

Likewise in the phone segment, the third place slot is far from wrapped up.
MeeGo was DOA and Windows Phone 7 isn't exactly lighting the sales charts on
fire.

Solid execution from HP over the next 6 months could really ignite the webOS
platform.

------
nl
Does anyone else agree WebOS is the number 3 mobile OS after iOS & Android?
Seriously?

Objectively RIM is by far the 3rd biggest player (by some measures it is in
the top 2), and I can't see how WebOS is magically going to leapfrog them.
Playbook might not be perfect, but it's a lot better than the unshipped HP
TouchPad.

In my head WinPhone7 is number 4 - and they at least have a strategy to move
up in the market (aka Nokia).

WebOS might be lovely (I wouldn't know.. you can't buy it in my market - which
says a lot), but I can list pages in Wikipedia for lovely platforms like
WebOS: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine>,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga>, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure>
etc etc)

------
unwiredben
I'm working with a team doing amazing things to ready the the HP TouchPad
launch and webOS 3.0 for launch. We wouldn't be working so hard if we thought
this platform was dead on arrival. HP has big plans and I'm glad we're a part
of it.

~~~
eekfuh
Ben, we love you guys, but we feel that you spend too much time with EA,
GameLoft and probably Rovio, and not enough with us little guys. Maybe thats
whats caused some me to get so distant, worsening the effect.

In all reality, thats business. A company that was driving only a few thousand
dollars of revenue a month isn't all the important compared to the ones
probably doing 10-100x that. :|

------
zmmmmm
The real question is not whether WebOS is good or bad but whether any single
hardware and OS vendor (other than Apple, obviously) has a snowflake's chance
in hell of getting the ecosystem and mindshare required to be competitive.
Especially in the US where the carriers have a such strong hold on the only
viable channels to consumers you basically can't get anywhere unless you can
align your interests strongly with the established parties. Apple forced their
way in through sheer mass consumer appeal, Google managed to do it through a
brilliant strategy of giving carriers just enough control to make them see it
as a savior from being dictated to by Apple. But what strategic value will
carriers get from offering WebOS based phones? If HP screws them with bad
hardware they are stuck. If HP screws them with bad software they are stuck.
Pile on top of that the fact that the demands of modern smart phones these
days go way beyond a nice OS - you just can't compete unless you come to the
table with a huge range of services integrated - mapping, search, voice-to-
text, etc. WebOS relies on competitors to get these services which can't
possibly work long term.

I also disagree with the assessment of WP7 - I don't think the so-called
"missteps" have even been noticed by the vast majority of consumers using WP7
phones. With Nokia maxing out their distribution channel to push WP7 phones I
really can't see how WebOS is going to beat them. People are going to buy them
just through sheer numbers of them on the shelves. It doesn't mean WP7 is
going to succeed but certainly indicates WebOS is going to have a really hard
time beating them.

------
jchrisa
HP will be shipping WebOS on all its laptops and desktops. They are the #1
computer maker. You do the math.

~~~
podperson
Here's my math. It seems to me there are two possibilities:

WebOS fails on the laptop and desktop (e.g. is perceived as crap/bloat-ware or
simply ignored). In this case the math doesn't look good.

WebOS succeeds on the laptop and desktop. This means that a whole bunch of
users are willing to give up on Windows for their computing needs. Long
overdue, since most people's computing needs are met by a web browser and a
few other programs you can get for free. If this looks like happening, it's
open season on the PC industry business model. Apple has already taken away
the high margin market... this will be like a horde of hyenas ripping into a
wounded wildebeest. I'm not sure this is actually a better outcome for HP.

~~~
Duff
The PC business model is a zombie right now. I work at a joint that rolled out
about 12,000 PCs a year, every year. Since 2008? 2,000/year... mostly laptops
to folks whose jobs have become more mobile.

ALL of the good customer facing people with companies that peddle PCs in my
neck of the woods have either moved on to greener pastures or are holding out
for retirement.

My guess is that in 2014, those 6+ year old PCs will start failing and be
replaced with tablets for about 60% of the workers. I betcha that the rest
will be PCs from no-frills vendors like Asus.

Big enterprises are very conscious of costs, and the "whale" of client-
computing costs is that fat Microsoft EA that just gobbles up capital. That's
a big cash flow to build a business case for an alternate product.

~~~
podperson
Exactly. If WebOS "succeeds" on the desktop it will only be because the PC
business is done. And in that case, being the world's number one PC vendor
isn't very helpful.

------
jeffthebear
> WebOS even beat Windows Phone 7 in the single most important determination
> of the success of any mobile platform. The availability of Angry Birds.

Angry Birds is coming to Windows Phone 7:
[http://www.bgr.com/2011/04/14/angry-birds-for-windows-
phone-...](http://www.bgr.com/2011/04/14/angry-birds-for-windows-
phone-7-taking-off-on-may-25th/)

~~~
spicerunner
Yes, it definitely is coming to Windows Phone 7.

------
viraptor
One announcement that I really look forward to, is a system with multi-user
support. Since webos is kind of new (or at least will get a proper re-release
at this point with the first tablet device), I hope this option will be
included. The first tablet device which allows separate accounts for each user
at home gets my money as soon as it's released.

------
moondowner
> "Like I said, my bet is on WebOS over Windows Phone 7. "

Mine too, few months ago I ran into some tutorials on getting started on
developing for webOS on Mobiletuts+ and installed the webOS image for
VirtualBox, and my impressions of webOS were positive. Since then a new
version of webOS was released, I can only imagine that it's even better.

------
dr_
They've taken a great OS and put it in a somewhat poor smartphone. I found
they keyboard on the initial Pre to be very bad. I've heard it has improved
since then, but as they saying goes, first impressions count a lot.

I really thought with HP they would make significant enhancements to the
hardware, but so far I haven't seen anything too compelling. Still, it's a
great OS and I wish them luck. I may take another look at it in the tablet
form.

~~~
antidaily
Agreed. The Pre's battery life was atrocious.

------
warpdesign
I have to agree with most of the comments:

\- The OS is great, but the hardware really falls behind... too small screen,
poor battery: I'm wondering: I don't think you can have lots of success
without both a great phone and a greato OS

\- As for the free developer device offer, it seems they were a bit
selective... I applied for it and didn't get any answer.

I started developing even before the device was released here in France, and
have had to use the emulator since then. And that's a pain :(

Let's hope the Pre 3 will change these things (the Veer won't certainly have a
bigger screen... And if I remember correctly you'll need an adaptator to
connect earphones: that's definitely not a phone for me :))

------
bryanmig
I bought a Palm Pre (1) for Sprint about a month after it came out. I still
think the operating system, WebOS, is great but Palm really let me down with
the device. It was just pure crap.

Despite its sleek design, the craftsmanship was poor and the phone cracked in
multiple places. The plastic screen also scratched very easily.

The worst part of it all is that the phone is underpowered. The processor is
slower and has less RAM than its competition. This is why the phone performed
so poorly despite having a great operating system.

I hope HP can make the next generation WebOS powered devices perform better
because it really is a great OS.

------
metageek
The Veer is overpriced. My Inspire 4G cost the same two months ago, and it's
much better hardware, plus something like 10 times the apps. HP should have
priced it to where AT&T would sell it for $0 on contract. At $99, there's no
way they'll come from behind.

------
MatthewPhillips
HP needs to push the web angle even harder. If WebOS were the chromeOS of
phone it would have something to really differentiate itself. To do that they
have to go all-in on making the browser really kick ass. The biggest problem
with the mobile web today is the browsers are not nearly as good as the
desktop counterparts. If HP/Palm would make it a priority to have a javascript
engine that comes close to desktop counterparts, to support all of the cutting
edge html5 features, and continually iterate on that, I'd definitely strongly
consider making a switch. They should drop native apps all together and
instead suggest developers use WebGL and html5 (keep the App Catalog but make
it just be for app review and discovery).

------
podperson
Of the three items in the "improved" product line, one is vaporware.

------
ltamake
I liked webOS, it's a shame to see it like this. :(

~~~
spicerunner
The fat lady hasn't sung yet.

------
rbanffy
The biggest threat, by far, to WebOS is some Microsoft exec letting an HP exec
know, casually, while they are, say, playing golf, that HP's Windows license
could end up costing a bit more than Dell's because they are not really
helping Windows Phone 7 become the success it deserves and helping WP7 would
entitle a couple large discounts on other licenses.

Microsoft has enormous power on OEMs.

~~~
spicerunner
All of the antitrust stuff of the last decade has really tamed Microsoft. I'm
not sure they'd do that. I really wanted to like Windows Phone 7, but have
lost faith and think WebOS may have an opportunity to overtake them if HP
plays their cards right.

Microsoft's biggest hope for penetration is the Nokia partnership. Two
frightened dinosaurs huddling in a cave as the comet approaches...

~~~
rbanffy
> All of the antitrust stuff of the last decade has really tamed Microsoft.

That's why discussions like this would no longer happen over e-mail. On a open
field, during a social encounter with no witnesses and no lasting evidence it
ever happened, I am not so sure.

Microsoft has always used discounts to modulate OEM licensing costs.

