
Yugoslavs Find No Paradise at McDonald's (1988) - dsego
http://articles.latimes.com/1988-05-26/business/fi-4963_1_yugoslav-television
======
ivanhoe
Explanation is easy, but understandably it's very hard for an American to
grasp such a concept of life. People in Yugoslavia didn't work a lot, it's
true, but not because of some lazy Sloven mentality, but because they simply
didn't have to. And it even didn't make much sense to work hard in socialism,
because you could work a little or you could work a lot, at the end of the
month you would still earn the same salary as everyone else. But it was OK for
the majority. You had a decent living, no stress, health care was good.
Country wasn't rich, but society was much more non-consumeristic back then and
generally people had a lower expectations, so none of us who grew up there
felt that we are missing something big. We were mostly part of the middle
class and had our jeans and TVs and VCRs and music systems and ZX Spectrums
and Commodores, watched MTV and listened to r'n'r, had long vacations and a
chance to travel the world or spend summers in our parents' holiday houses on
the Adriatic seaside. Social differences were not big, everyone was more or
less equally poor (or equally rich). I know it sounds unreal from the todays
world, but it was a really nice country to live in. Of course, such system was
not competitive enough to be sustainable without external financing, so it all
started to collapse in 90s, and then it progressed into wars and nationalism
and now life is not like that anymore. Now people are happy with their 8hx7
work at MacDonald's, because there are other even worse ones...

~~~
jotm
But it's the people who want more who drive progress. Which is why the thing
collapsed - take away the desire of those few to be and do better, and the
whole system stagnates rather quickly...

------
edw519
_According to a recent domestic survey, average Yugoslavs work efficiently for
only half of their eight-hour workday. The rest of the time is spent reading
newspapers, conducting private business or having interminable private chats
with colleagues over coffee._

According to a recent domestic survey, average I.T. managers work efficiently
for only 10% of their eight-hour workday. The rest of the time is spent
reading email, conducting pointless meetings, or having interminable private
chats with colleagues over "best practices".

~~~
skylan_q
Some disclosure:

I've been born and raised in Canada and my parents are immigrants from the
former Yugoslavia. I've taken many extended trips back home and I have to say
that "working efficiently for only half of their eight-hour workday" is
overstating their efficiency. Socialism destroyed work ethic in Yugoslavia
amongst other things. The villagers and farmers were the only ones who had any
work ethic left as they were primarily subsistence farmers on the "receiving
end" of socialism if you will. They were the ones who left to work and settle
in other countries.

People with money aren't viewed as investors, but crooks. Anyone who turns a
profit is suspected of stealing. Almost no one understands the concept of
looking for work or creating their own job. It's sad.

~~~
Vivtek
Well, to be fair, anywhere the Habsburgs ruled is like this because that's the
way their empire worked. You _could_ only get rich by exploiting others or
engaging in corruption - or be born into it because your ancestors did that.

~~~
jotm
I think it was the communism - it was a really bad economic system that was so
out of touch with the reality of human beings and the past thousand years that
people had no other choice but to engage in corruption (bypassing the system).

~~~
mietek
There's the communist revolution, which gave power to people who were not fit
to wield it. There's the dekulakization, which liquidated millions of people
who knew what they were doing. Then there's the forced collectivisation...

------
popee
As person from country that was in former Yugoslavia i can say that situation
is not simple as Americans see it. Yugoslav variation of socialism (yeah, it
is important to yell that it wasn't communism) had flaws and advances. In
short:

1\. Humans come first. Even before money.

2\. But, but, lot of people exploited 1. due bad organization, nepotism, ...

Because of 1. people had, for example, health care and education for free
(best universities included), but because of 2. -> system wasn't always in
favor of people that actually work (even for others).

People, at one moment, voted for capitalism -> now we don't have free health
care and education, but most of people from 2. are still here. Worst from both
worlds :-( But when i look at Scandinavia it looks like they knew how to
minimize 2. and also have 1. at the same time. So if i ever choose to leave
current place it will be Scandinavia ;-)

~~~
mmphosis
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Former_Yugoslavia_2008.PN...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Former_Yugoslavia_2008.PNG)

------
babuskov
The article, and all the comments here are missing the main reason for this
behavior. I'm 36 now, and I live in Serbia. When Socialism was ruling, all the
companies were owned and run by the state. The wages were determined by the
company you work for. Difference in wage for same position in some non-
profitable company and a profitable one, would easily be 20x. So, the only
thing that mattered was not your knowledge, but whether you could get a job at
shoe company or oil refinery. Getting one in oil refinery was much better. The
other thing is that people got fired really, really rarely. So, you get the
job and you're settled for life. Even pensions are much higher and provided by
the state.

Now, when a foreign company enters, esp. one with reputation of being a big,
profitable business, people would assume that getting a job there is the same,
or even better than working at a big domestic company.

Sadly, this is still true for many people today. We have a lot of foreign
companies here now, and many people have got the job, just to quit days or
weeks later. Main complaint being: there's too much work. People only stick
and work in companies where wages are 40-50% above the average wage in
domestic companies. We still suffer from low productivity.

This is slowly changing, and I assume it will be much better in 5-10 years.
7-13 year old kids who are in school now are growing up in a different kind of
system, and their parent are also young enough to have sane perspective on
state of things. They enter the workforce in 5-10 years from now.

Our main problem now is current youth, who were raised during the war, whose
parents could not teach them good value system, because all they could see on
television was that criminals and people waging wars are idols for boys, and
folk singers for girls. Also, many criminals earned a lot of money during the
war and seeing them go unpunished was really a bad message to all children.
Those children are 15-25 years old now, and a lot of them simply have no goals
in life, see no perspective and either want to become criminals themselves or
leave the country.

------
tokenadult
I really liked this article. It's startling to someone as old as I am to
realize that many Hacker News participants are too young to remember
Yugoslavia as an intact country. In general, the transition from regimes in
eastern Europe controlled by national Communist parties (whether part of the
Warsaw Pact or not) to the current melange of national governments in a larger
number of countries in that region is already a distant memory or unknown to
many young people, while still remembered as an unimaginable future
possibility to people my age.

On the subject of the first McDonald's restaurant in a country, my wife (who
grew up in Taiwan) and I went (on my suggestion) to the opening day of the
first McDonald's in Taiwan in early 1984. We waited in line outdoors at least
an HOUR, and when we finally got into the restaurant, the workers inside all
looked shocked at the number of customers still in line to order. People in
Taiwan are used to working hard, but that was a level of intensity of desire
for a particular restaurant's food that was baffling to the young new hires
there. I think everyone in Taiwan who had ever been to any country with a
McDonald's, both locals and expatriates, were there to see what a local
McDonald's would look like.

After my newlywed wife had her first McDonald's hamburger, she asked her
American husband why I went to the trouble of waiting in line so long for such
indifferent food. That was sheer nostalgia on my part--by then I had been away
from the United States for two years. Here in the United States, I can and do
go two years at a time without eating a McDonald's hamburger, just because I
can. But felt I had to have the hamburger in Taiwan at my first opportunity,
just because I couldn't before. I think for a while that McDonald's store in
Taipei had the worldwide record for highest weekly gross sales of any
McDonald's location, eventually to be surpassed by the first-ever McDonald's
in some other country. You can now get good service from diligent young
workers in a McDonald's all over Taiwan.

~~~
mtrimpe
That reminds me of how one of my favourite memories of the Czech Republic was
seeing young couples having romantic dinner dates in McDonalds.

It actually took me several weeks to understand that to them the McDonalds was
a _special_ place; an affordable restaurant with an air of foreign mystique
...

~~~
liquidcool
Was that also in the 80's? I'm in Prague now and I don't think anyone sees McD
as special. Starbucks seems to have that appeal, although I find Costa Coffee
much better. But I spent May in Kyiv and they _love_ McDonald's there. I was
told it's seen as a very good deal.

~~~
mtrimpe
Oh my god; I'm getting old. That was about 8 or 9 years ago :)

Just to be clear, 95% of people sitting at McDonalds would just be eating
their schlep, while these couples would sit starry eyed between them.

Also, if you're talking about Prague: that's not Czech Republic as many Czechs
like to say ... it's a different world all unto itself.

------
Vivtek
That McD's in Belgrade is actually the place this American first tried a Big
Mac. It was pretty good.

The trend of demanding more work for less money is hardly restricted to
Yugoslavia, though - it's crippled America, for one thing, but Western Europe
loooves to exploit Central Europe for cheap labor, even though Central
Europe's cost of living has come up to Western levels now.

------
moondowner
Just to say that the TV series mentioned in the article, Dynasty[1], was
really popular then. My parents watched it as well.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynasty_%28TV_series%29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynasty_%28TV_series%29)

~~~
chiph
TV has always presented unrealistic expectations. Look at the hit show
"Friends" \- there's no way that group of people could afford apartments that
size in NYC with the jobs they had (waitress/chef/copywriter/actor).

~~~
eru
See
[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FriendsRentContro...](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FriendsRentControl)

------
Sandman
Not directly related to the article, but it seems to me that a really big
difference between McDonald's employees in the US and those in the countries
of former Yugoslavia is that in the US, McD's employees are young people who
either never went to college or who dropped out, or those who see it as a way
to support themselves while they're in college (since I'm not from the US I
might be wrong here, feel free to correct me). In the countries of former
Yugoslavia (well, at least in _my_ country) unemployment rate is so high that
even having a college degree doesn't guarantee that you'll get a job. I have a
friend who is a professor of history and geography, he's 31, and he makes a
living flipping burgers at McDonald's. He simply couldn't get a job as a
professor anywhere. He's not exactly thrilled with what he makes, but he
doesn't have a lot of options.

------
desireco42
I lived in Yugoslavia and are saddened to see it being destroyed, but, now
living in US, it will be 10 yrs, I see a lot of things that remind me of old
Yugoslavia. Americans are especially defensive when you point out those
things, unlike people in Yugoslavia which had less illusions, yet enjoyed and
were also aware of all benefits. It was great country to live in, I don't
think in US you can't enjoy a level of freedom and carelessness like it was
possible in old Yugoslavia.

I think only Asian countries can be good examples of working hard and good
work ethics. US is not, it is excellent example of a lot of other good things.
If you don't think this is true, just look at Yahoo to name one.

------
velcro
Truth be told this article is exactly why a lot of (mostly untraveled) people
from the US have a really distorted view of the rest of the world.

~~~
wyclif
What an odd interpretation of this story—projecting a Yugoslavian problem onto
the US. Sounds like "blame the US" diversion to me. McDonald's is a company of
US origin but the Yugoslavian work ethic is a thing that would exist even if
Ray Kroc had never been born.

Also: I think US citizens are a lot more well-travelled than you assume. Sure,
they work hard and don't get much holiday time, but they do travel quite a lot
in their free time.

~~~
leviathant
Counterpoint:
[http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppi/stats/stats_890.html](http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppi/stats/stats_890.html)

The US citizens you hang out with, sure. And certainly, a lot of US citizens I
know now are well-traveled as well. But I moved away from an area in central
Pennsylvania where there were families who had lived in the same county since
the 1600s. Friends who had, by their mid-twenties, never gone so far as New
York, let alone across a national border.

It's certainly a mistake to think that all Americans are ignorant and
sheltered, and it's great to see that more and more Americans have passports,
but it's still very accurate to say that Americans are mostly untraveled.

------
unimpressive
I remember some people on HN saying that having the right to a job would be
better than having a minimum income. As I understand it the various communist
countries are an excellent case study in why this is a bad idea.

~~~
swalsh
I think a minimum income is a good idea in a society where there's little
demand for unskilled labor. As long as the basic income is priced below the
average wage of skilled labor, people will still have incentives to find
employment... but those that can't, still have a minimum quality of life that
should be expected in the first world.

~~~
m4x
New Zealand (and probably many other nations) provides a system similar to
this where you either have a job and earn as much as you're able (based on
negotiating skill and to some extent actual job skill) or you are unemployed
and receive a benefit which is supposed to cover your basic living costs.

Without defrauding the system, you are better off getting a job as it provides
you with a better income. Despite this, there are still a significant number
of people who would rather remain unemployed than contribute productively to
society. Many of them defraud the system or engage in crime to boost their
income.

I think I would rather see the government guaranteeing a basic job rather than
offering benefits for any length of time. Supporting somebody legitimately
between jobs is fine. Somebody who hasn't worked in a year should be sent to a
labour camp until they decide to find better employment.

~~~
unimpressive
>Somebody who hasn't worked in a year should be sent to a labour camp until
they decide to find better employment.

Considering recent trends, now seems like the last time you would want to lock
people into wage slavery.

On top of that, in a situation like now where you have tons more hands than
jobs to make use of them, this policy seems like it would only exasperate the
situation in times of economic repression.

This idea is literally considered the Bad Future(TM) in Marshall Brains
Manna[0]. And I can't say I disagree. I don't want to live in a world where
those homeless people I see on the street are rounded up and sedated
somewhere. Especially if one day I might join them.

Not to mention that this basically outlaws several kinds of professions.
(Freelance artist, Consultant)

[0]:[http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm](http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm)

~~~
m4x
Is asking people to contribute to society really comparable to the Bad Future?
Having read your link, I would say it's more akin to rules 8 and 9 of the 4GC

There's nothing wrong with being a freelancer, or deliberately homeless, or
simply taking a break from work in order to pursue your own projects or goals.
However, if you choose to claim a benefit and do so for an extended period
(i.e. >60% of the time for a year or more) then I think it's fair for the
government to say "from now you work for NZ, or relinquish your benefit".

It's unreasonable to burden society just because you're lazy and unmotivated

The ridiculous utopia portrayed in Manna would be nicer, of course, but we
aren't there yet. Right now everything has a cost, including lazy
beneficiaries, corrupt politicians and jaw-droppingly stupid government
projects. I can't see any way to fix those problems but I am allowed to hope
for a world where one day we can

~~~
unimpressive
>However, if you choose to claim a benefit and do so for an extended period
(i.e. >60% of the time for a year or more) then I think it's fair for the
government to say "from now you work for NZ, or relinquish your benefit".

That's a little different, and more reasonable.

And yes, I mainly linked that story for the Dystopia part.

------
nick2
"Trained employees are quitting because they find they have to work like
Westerners and get paid like East Europeans." That says it all. You always get
what you pay for.

~~~
dasil003
Also, I bet the food prices aren't correspondingly low. I remember when
McDonald's started expanding in Brazil a couple decades ago, prices were
ridiculous (like $8-$9 equivalent for a big mac meal) but people still lined
up around the block for the novelty and addictive quality of the food.

~~~
emiliobumachar
Brazilian here. It's still about that expensive, and still very popular.

~~~
VLM
There's a chain restaurant in the USA advertising itself as genuine Brazilian
cuisine. Looks like about $40/person or I believe thats about 100 Brazilian
Real per person.

I'm betting that a typical Brazilian Cuisine restaurant in Brazil charges much
less than 100 Real per person. That would fit my guess that they're a
specialty destination which can charge pretty much anything they want... for
awhile, while the novelty lasts.

(Edited to add, lazy me, I googled around and found an article online from
2012 claiming a single dude should expect to spend about R$350/month on food,
so the local Brazilian restaurant in the USA is asking for more than a weeks
worth of groceries equivalent, which would be pretty high end dining in my USA
local experience)

------
memla
A monthly paycheck for these employees that were determined to quit was $170.
In other words: if you worked at McDonald's, you couldn't afford to eat at
McDonald's.

~~~
refurb
Why does that matter? I've heard that arguememt for other industries, that
workers should be paid a wage that they can afford the product they are
making. I've never understood it though.

~~~
CWIZO
That just can't work. Imagine every Ferrari worker being able to afford a
Ferrari. What would that mean for a price of a Ferrari, eh? The price would
have to go up, and then the wages, and then the prices and so on.

~~~
memla
My statement wasn't meant as a general argument, but was just referring to
this specific case - namely, inexpensive fast food. In order for the
comparison between American and Yugoslavian work ethic to hold, you'd have to
lower the American salaries to the point where they cannot afford McDonald's
food. Let's see how that impacts their productivity.

~~~
workbench
The point isn't anywhere near as clever as you think it is.

------
mladenkovacevic
A nice documentary about my former country. Created by Pan Am to entice
tourists to visit.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B6eBAuhvEY&feature=youtube_...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B6eBAuhvEY&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

~~~
mladenkovacevic
Also this is the Serbian version of a "hamburger". Quite frankly I'm surprised
that McD's is still in business. [http://s3.amazonaws.com/foodspotting-
ec2/reviews/1075384/thu...](http://s3.amazonaws.com/foodspotting-
ec2/reviews/1075384/thumb_600.jpg?1322258078)

------
IvyMike
I'd be curious to see how things are today at McDonald's in the Yugosphere.

~~~
skylan_q
Excellent, actually. I was just speaking with someone yesterday about how
McDonald's is executing a long-term strategy very effectively. They appeal to
children without offending adults. The population in the region places a high
emphasis on eating home-cooked meals and domestic cleanliness. They've managed
to make a name for themselves without having too much negative stigma being
attached to them for being "fast food" which is casually viewed as an American
malaise.

------
lucisferre
This article has literally zero substance and seems to be entirely
circumstantial. A single interview with one Yugoslav about a single business.
A ridiculous claims this has something to do with watching dynasty.

Unless of course you put a lot of stock in the "according to a recent survey"
part.

I'm actually surprised how many people appear to be discussing this seriously,
or why this was even submitted. Can anyone explain what is interesting about
this?

