
I'm so impressed I want to pay you less - keyle
http://buffered.io/2010/03/02/im-so-impressed-i-want-to-pay-you-less/
======
wccrawford
I'm on the other side of the fence. Yes, I could be making more money as a
contractor, but that 'job security' that he doesn't see is one of the main
things I like. It's -possible- that I won't have a job tomorrow, but it's not
really likely. On the other hand, if I were contracting, I'd be in the
situation very, very often, and have to find new clients constantly. No
thanks.

Of course, it also helps that I like the company I work for, and I enjoy the
work. It's got just enough variety that I don't get bored, and it's just
challenging enough, too. Every time that challenge has started to disappear,
the company has upped their game and the challenge came back. I joined the
company at just the right time for me and them both, apparently.

~~~
rorrr
Job security is a myth. You can get fired/laid off at any time, whether you're
full time or not. In a few states they don't even need a reason to get rid of
you (at-will employment).

I have seen this happen at least twice in the last 5 years. Company runs out
of money, a bunch of people get cut. I've seen pretty high level people cut
for political reasons. Of course, officially they would never admit that, but
they _don't need to_. As a full time employee you might get a severance
package, if the company doesn't feel like dealing with you, but it's
completely optional. The only real advantage of being full time is COBRA when
you get laid off. Still, it's not worth the salary difference.

I completely agree with the author of the article, being a contractor is
totally worth it. I'm in a position right now where my contract is running
out, and the company offered me a full time position. I will not take it. I'd
rather be unemployed (and motivated to find a better deal) than working for
less. Never take a pay cut. Always ask for promotions. (That's if you want
your salary to grow consistently).

A word of advice to contractors: DO NOT fall for the daily rate. Hourly is the
only fair game. Everything else will land you long unpaid hours. I absolutely
love my hourly rate, and if you can get increased overtime rate, even better.

~~~
stoney
Assuming of course that you live in the US. In the UK it's relatively
difficult to get rid of people - sacking is very difficult and likely to end
up in court (you need a bulletproof reason for doing it) and the redundancy
process is quite complex (with guaranteed payments if you've been there more
than 2 years, etc).

Looks like the blog article was written by an Australian - their level of job
security falls somewhere between the UK and the US.

EDIT: Also, I believe, in the UK you can't make permanent staff redundant if
you've got temporary staff - so the contractors are first out of the door.

~~~
OJ
Correct mate, I am an Australian. I would say that our job security level is
closer to that of the USA than the UK, but I don't think it's exactly the
same.

On the whole I've seen way too many good people let go from permy positions
while other plebs are retained. In same cases there doesn't appear to be any
rhyme or reason to who gets culled and when. To me that's a real sign that the
"important" differences between permy and contractor are well in favour of the
latter.

Cheers!

~~~
nl
Actually, the Australian redundancy route is closer to the UK than to the US
(we usually have 4 week notice period etc etc).

But Australia has such low unemployment at the moment that it doesn't really
matter - forced redundancies are pretty uncommon at the moment.

I agree about the contractor thing regardless though - the difference in rates
make permanent employment a pretty hard sell.

(I'm Australian if it matters)

~~~
OJ
Conditions aren't the important bit imho mate. The important bit is that you
can still be got rid of fairly easily (unless you work in the public service,
which seems almost impossible to be fired from). In that regard we are quite
diff to the UK and more like the USA.

Forced redundancies are indeed uncommon at the moment, but I think that'll
change. They weren't too uncommon just a few short years ago either.

------
jrockway
I went from contractor to "real employee" at a big company and it was no
problem keeping the same take-home pay, while also getting paid vacation,
cheaper insurance, 401k matching, etc., etc. I feel a little burned for not
asking for more money, but nobody would actually take _less_ money, right?

~~~
sabat
_nobody would actually take less money, right?_

Often it appears that you take a hit to your pay, but when you do the benefits
math (paid holidays, vacation, health insurance, sick days) it's at least a
wash.

~~~
OJ
Yes, for the right job, or for something they love, they would do it. I know
because I have done it.

I went to the UK in 2004 to do some travelling and working for a couple of
years. Initially I was contracting in London at pretty good rates (between GBP
400 and 600 per day -- as I said, in 2004). The first year of contracting I
earned just over GBP 120K. That's approx. USD $190k on the current exchange
rate.

Part of the reason I went there was because I wanted to take a stab at the
games industry. It was something that I had always wanted to do, and the
industry here in Australia was awful. So I took at job at one of EA's studios.

That year I earned GBP 27k, approx. GBP 90k less than the year before.

Do I regret it? Not at all. I had a blast. It was a great experience and I met
some amazing people.

So no, it's not all about the money. For the right gig in the right place with
the right level of passion, earning enough to survive is exactly that: enough.

OJ

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russell
I made a good living as a contractor for about 2 decades, although the
aftermath of the .com implosion almost did me in, even though I had nothning
to do with it. But I recovered and soldiered on. I finished a lucrative
contract Sept 15, 2008. Then it was a year and a half of nothing or jobs tha
paid way less than I was used to getting. I could make ends meet if I didnt
pay taxes, but you know how that goes.

Then I got a job with a kind of Internet conglomerate. It isnt half bad. The
pay plus the bonuses plus paid health care give me an income that's within 10%
of a typical good consulting year. The health insurance was a biggie, because
I couldnt get it any more. The people are talented and the corporate BS is
less than I expected. I cant quite get my workweek down to the 40 hrs that is
expected, but no more death marches.

------
OJ
Apologies to anyone who has struggled to hit the site. It's not used to this
level of traffic!

I'm enjoying the discussion too, thanks for the insights!

OJ

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cubicle67
Slightly offtopic, but do you have in America casual employees?

In Australia, many non-professional jobs have award wages. These are the
minimum rate you're allowed to pay someone in that position, eg a Pharmacy
Assistant may earn a minimum (and I'm making these figures up) of $18.50/hr
full time. I _think_ this figure may vary by state, but I'm not sure. These
rates are for full time employees; 37.5hrs/week, 10 sick days, 4 weeks
holiday, 10 public holidays all of which you're paid for.

Anyway, there's also Casual employees who aren't paid for any of the above (no
sick pay, holiday pay etc), and they usually only work <20 hrs/week, but in
return their award pay is 17.5% higher than that of a fulltime employee

[Disclaimer: I actually know very little about this, it being 10 years or more
since I needed to know, and there's a high likelihood things have changed and
the above info is all wrong]

~~~
jmeyers
Yes we do have casual employees, the term is "part time" in America. They
generally work less than 20 hours a week, no benefits like time off or
holidays, but they usually don't make more money than full time employees
though.

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nfriedly
The site is getting an nginx error for me, but this cache works:
[http://buffered.io.nyud.net/2010/03/02/im-so-impressed-i-
wan...](http://buffered.io.nyud.net/2010/03/02/im-so-impressed-i-want-to-pay-
you-less/)

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okaramian
How does someone start to get into the contractor side of things? Are you
generally working connections initially? Or are you going via a
headhunter/craigslist for contract only gigs?

~~~
keyle
I just look for 3 months contracts with a hourly rate on jobs listing site (I
used seek.com.au)

This current one has been extended twice, 9 months down now.

It does take more responsibility, you have to do your own billing, your
timesheet, and be 'more' presentable.

But all that is cheap compared to the price of working longer hours and not
getting paid. At least if I work 10 hour day, I bill 10 hours. Also I get to
claim so much more at tax time.

PS: to be a successful contractor, you should be good at what you do. As in
'Good' directly linked to your hourly rate requirement.

I should also clarify that it's not all glam. It's not for everybody. You have
to be able to make quick and good decisions, code straight from 8am to 5pm
with a half hour lunch and deliver. If you're the kind that likes to sit back
and "R&D" all afternoon, or take a day to fix a bug, it might not be for you.
You have to be productive and make every hour count for your employer and
leave the R&D for the evening at home.

All that said, I still love it.

------
eof
I took one of these offers and am glad I did. I took an hourly pay cut of like
36% assuming 40 hour weeks which is about accurate, though I generally go
slightly over.

However, I wasn't/am not a well known hot shot. I didn't graduate college
(dropped out of a comp sci program 7 years prior), and all my 'experience' was
a hand full of projects for local businesses and organizations. I was not even
close to being able to simply pick my work or expect to bill 30+ hours a week
regularly.

Now, 6 months into working full time in an understaffed department and taking
on unexpected responsibilities I feel an order of magnitude more able to
potentially sell myself or an idea to a _business_ as I had always thought in
terms of people before.

I've learned a ton, I make more money, and I don't think about work 120+days a
year. There are definite downsides too..

------
foobarbazoo
This happened to me with Apple. The pay cut was huge; I declined. End of
story.

------
GrandMasterBirt
Job security is/is not a myth. It depends on the company. However what it all
comes down to is when the money runs out, you are out. If you are a mission-
critical contractor or a mission-critical employee you have more job security
than a non-mission-critical contractor/employee. If people feel that you truly
overcharge to hell and your services are not worth it, there you go, no job
security.

What is better about employee? You have a regular paycheck. Economy is shitty?
You still get it, or get fired. Economy is booming? Still get it. Didn't make
a sale this month? Still get it. Contractor is not so consistent.

