

Fabsie hopes to help the mass market enjoy the fruits of the DIY movement - jamesmcbennett
http://gigaom.com/2013/03/15/fabsie-hopes-to-help-the-mass-market-enjoy-the-fruits-of-the-diy-movement/

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pifflesnort
There are a lot of market issues with this; I just don't see this working.
It's not as if CNC and automation processes are new to the furniture industry,
especially for small-scale furniture makers.

Even once you automate a good deal of the production costs, there is still
additional labor, materials, and expertise required.

First of all, CNC machined plywood is not sufficient for anything other than
workshop-grade furniture (as in, furniture you'd use in your workshop). You
need -- at a _minimum:_

\- Edging applied to protect against splinters and damage to the veneer.

\- A finish/varnish/veneer to protect the surfaces against
damage/dirt/warping.

Those things involve additional semi-skilled labor and cost. On top of that,
people don't usually want raw wood furniture, which means that you need
different kinds of veneers and surfaces, which increases material costs and
complexity.

On top of that, you're unlikely to be able to produce purely "slot
constructed" furniture of any appreciable complexity. You're going to need
joints. This significantly increases the costs of the machinery/tooling/design
required.

Now that you've added additional materials, labor, and more complex end-user
construction, your costs have gone up as well. On top of this, your production
facilities need to figure out how to efficiently ship these one-off flat-pack
low-end creations to your end users.

Congratulations, you're competing with Ikea, and Ikea has the cheap flat-pack
mass-production process down to a science.

If you start trying to scale up to more high-end furniture production, you now
have more problems.

First of all, what's described here is essentially _already_ how furniture
(and clothing, and electronics) production works, just without the "crowd
sourcing". Designers, production facilities, and brand management companies
come together to produce furniture for sale in retail outlets.

The problem is that each entity in the chain (design -> production -> sale)
does a lot more than operate automated machinery. The machinery itself is not
the major expense. The trained labor, raw materials, stock, distribution,
storage, and sale of the products are where the complexity come in.

The place where you find efficiencies is in either doing this at scale, _not_
doing this one-off. When you order a piece of furniture from a high-end
company, it will be dropped into the production queue, shipped via freight
some time later along with a huge batch of other furniture, distributed to
large warehouses near major cities, and then pushed out to a subcontracted or
directly managed furniture freight delivery service.

Trying to do this on a non-local, distributed, crowd-source bases via UPS will
_not_ be cheaper.

The only way to do this for an equivalent price is to buy furniture made,
designed, and often delivered by local furniture makers. They tend to have
their own workshops containing things like CNC machines, or already have
access to those machines through shared workshops. Insofar as they require
less skilled labor to assemble the work, they already have it.

~~~
jamesmcbennett
Thanks for your comment pifflesnort. Quite a few points mentioned, so will
break it up.

i) CNC - 1951 - Not new at all - However its price point is completely new
dropping 10X in price since my university paid $250,000 for theirs, now
$20,000. Also skills are increasing rapidly no longer limited to several
schools, but being taught everywhere.

ii) There will always be costs. Given the drop in costs above to use CNC on-
demand means the costs are reasonable to get this started. Ten years ago would
have been impossible.

iii) Can the end-user/maker finish the stool (paint/varnish)

iv) Working with raw wood which has its market. It's not everyone, but I
believe large enough to get this started. Other options are available later,
melamine would be easiest and ot expand this system into solid woods.

v) With the right designs none of the additional labour you mention is needed.
[http://creativecncdesign.com/wp-
content/uploads/2010/12/cnc-...](http://creativecncdesign.com/wp-
content/uploads/2010/12/cnc-scissor-chair-816x1024.jpg)

~~~
pifflesnort
> _iii) Can the end-user/maker finish the stool (paint/varnish)_

Given the cost of one-off production runs + shipping, why wouldn't I buy a
stool that's already finished?

> _iv) Working with raw wood which has its market. It's not everyone, but I
> believe large enough to get this started. Other options are available later,
> melamine would be easiest and ot expand this system into solid woods._

> _v) With the right designs none of the additional labour you mention is
> needed._

Why would a consumer choose raw wood or a design like that (especially if they
have to build it themselves) over a flat-pack Ikea or CB2 chair that will be
better finished, possibly steal from an existing designer style, and be about
the same price, if not cheaper?

~~~
jamesmcbennett
You make the assumption that it is like for like. IKEA does average products
for average people, it is not the Amazon of the furniture world, it is the
Borders.

If we want to offer furniture specific to airbnb users that is more privacy
orientated, we do so. If we want a desk for the guy that works from home with
his dog and wants a desk/doghouse to suit his life, we do so. If we want a
bookshelf for the phaidon buyer that needs specific bookshelf dimensions, we
do so. (Or rather will do so....) Lastly, when you look at the designs done,
they are mind-blowingly cool. (I used to work for one of the world's top
design offices, so have a strong network there.)

I agree with many of your points, thanks for taking the time to write them,
much appreciated, but want to put these challenges to the test as I strongly
believe several of them can be overcome.

~~~
pifflesnort
On the non-average product for non-average people front, I'll share my
experience. Personally, my house is decorated with a mix of big brand
furniture (ligne roset), smaller designer/brand management stuff (de la
espada), and local (nyc/brooklyn) designed+made furniture.

The local stuff was all made-to-order, and I was able to see examples of the
designer/builder's work by visiting local retail/studio spaces, and then
commission custom work based on their existing designs.

A large part of my willingness to purchase something custom/one-off is based
on having examples and history of quality product being produced by that
designer/manufacturer.

If things are one-off cut (or assembled) by crowd-sourced people, then I'm
unlikely to have much faith in the end-result. On top of this, seeing is _very
much_ believing, and (I might be unusual in this) I really need to see design
in person before I'll commit.

I don't see how it's possible to separate responsibility for design from
responsibility for production. When I buy a brand-name or local designer's
work, it's _their_ brand that is associated with the produced product. The
same exists in electronics -- foxconn might assemble Apple's iPhones, but
Apple's name is riding on the quality.

If this relationship is broken up, why would I pay premium design prices for
custom designed furniture that is CNC-cut by crowd-sourced production houses
and shipped to me for assembly? If I'm not paying premium design prices, how
would a designer be able to afford spending time designing a custom piece of
furniture for me?

~~~
jamesmcbennett
Sounds like a great place you have!

I think this whole comment can be summarised by the line of 'do you trust us?'
The answer is currently no which is fine, but over time, we might just win you
over.

On touch, I completely agree. \- Buying something small to test out the system
such as our stool we currently have on kickstarter.
[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jamesmcbennett/this-
stoo...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jamesmcbennett/this-stool-rocks)
\- Targeting coffee shops to show the furniture \- Pop-ups and so on... \-
Also seeing it at a friends house would count too. \- Creating surround sound
of postive karma within a city.

Responability is an intersting one for any of these new digtial-to-physical
systems. Teaching on 3D printing at General Assembly, we get deep into
discussions on the wider aspects of law, quality control and future of quality
marks in this new system. Great example you mention Foxconn -> Apple and Apple
host reputation on the line. I think Fabsie's reputation is on the line in
this case.

At the moment, crowdsourced people = some of the best designers in the best
offices in the world who most people don't have access to. When I was working
in design offices, most designers (architects in this case) had the problem
that we wanted to design a mass product but had no platform to do so.

We are starting in Plywood and will expand into other materials. I am
influenced by designers like Marc Newson who can sell the same form at $300,
$3,000 and £300,000 depending on what material the chair is made of. We intend
to start in Plywood, then offer solid wood and add other digital-to-physical
machines.

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28bcat
Pifflesnort - can't argue with the fact that economies of scale make mass-
produced furniture cheaper to produce and therefore cheaper to buy. Obviously
for some people, cost will always be the primary factor when it comes to
deciding what they purchase.

However, as far as I understand it, low cost isn't really the USP here. Maybe
someone will correct me on this, but i'd say that the more important factors
are a) the environmental benefits of local production, and b) the potential
for customisation.

I think there's definitely a market for locally manufactured, non-air
freighted furniture. People are willing to pay slightly more than they would
at a supermarket in order to buy locally produced vegetables at a farmers'
market, and the same group of people might well be attracted to the idea of
buying locally produced furniture, even if they have to pay slightly more for
it than they would do at IKEA - particularly if what they end up with is a
unique piece of furniture that exactly fits the dimensions of the space they
want to put it in.

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joshayto
What I find interesting is the possibilities of this manufacturing process
really expanding and changing other industries. Is it really worth the
environmental cost to ship a product half way around the world, to save a few
pence? Why not just make it locally, if we can, even if it costs a tiny a bit
more. I see a big shift going forward, hopefully...

As they say: It's easier to mail the recipe, than a cake.

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purplenath
This is awesome! All for the longtail! There's definitely a shortage of
machinist skills out there at the moment but it's services like this that'll
get groups of young people interested in learning those skills again.

~~~
jamesmcbennett
Hope so!

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jamesmcbennett
10 Chairs we like made using digital CNC routers. [http://fabsie.com/blog/ten-
of-our-favourite-digitally-cut-fu...](http://fabsie.com/blog/ten-of-our-
favourite-digitally-cut-furniture-design/)

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ph0rque
James... I'm assuming you can get eventually get a design flat-packed and
shipped with Fabsie?

~~~
jamesmcbennett
So the aim would be to order a product on www.fabsie.com that will be cut
locally (in North Carolina for example if thats where you are and available
for collection or delivery.

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startgroundUP
so we get to download furniture for free?

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jamesmcbennett
So i've made this stool rocks file available for free. (Creative Commons -
non-commercial) <http://fabsie.com/store/this-stool-rocks/> So far a school in
alberta, canada are making it and a guy in Sweden as they sent photos. Will
add more files to free download for laser cutting smaller models.

Depending on designer preferences, when someone sends me a design, I will ask
what license they prefer suggesting CC NC.

~~~
jamesmcbennett
Will be making tables and lots of other things availble soon. Trying to get
Techstars a table now.

Business Model Get wood sent to you cut - no hassle - Paid. Get a file to
download - know what you are doing - Free

