
Silicon Valley’s Vast Data Collection Should Worry You More Than TikTok - jrepinc
https://jacobinmag.com/2020/08/tiktok-surveillance-social-media-trump
======
fredliu
I'm risking losing a limb for saying this, but I would be much more
comfortable if the EO clearly stated the main reason for the TikTok and WeChat
ban is a retaliatory tit-for-tat against China's long time behavior of banning
US tech companies operating in the Chinese market, which sounds like the main
reason why many here support this ban.

Whether or not that tit-for-tat behavior leads to a net benefit for the US is
up for debate. But the fact the EOs cite "national security", "privacy
violation", etc. as the main reasons for banning makes you wonder "are those
the real reasons behind this ban?" If they are, then questions raised by OP's
article is perfectly legit, and makes the ban look either misplaced or
hypocritical. If the ban really is tit-for-tat, what's stoping the EO from
just saying so? Honestly, this whole situation makes the White
House/Department of State look like they don't even believe those allegations
themselves, which weakens their ground in any legitimate discussion
around"national security threat" , "privacy violation" etc.

~~~
justicezyx
This is simply guity by association. No matter what TikTok does, just because
it's created by a Chinese domestic company, then all the political will are
aligned behind the idea to automatically assume guilty, with even the slight
trace of proof of the claimed misconduct.

Then there is guilty by association on China/CCP, based on their association
with communism. Which by all accounts is largely nothing but name nowadays.
CCP itself looks more like a capitalism organization than a communism party,
on the spectrum from communism to capitalism. But most time, one random
netizen wholeheartedly claims that CCP is evil, just based on it having
communism in the name. Then anything Chinese people doing are tainted as well.
Like I was called associated with Chinese government in [2], because I stated
that "五毛" is being used too abusively, and "government hired net moderator" is
probably better [3].

For god's sake, I am now routinely worried my future at this country, just
because I come from mainland China...

[1] [https://legaldictionary.net/guilt-by-
association/](https://legaldictionary.net/guilt-by-association/) [2]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23494968](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23494968)
[3]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23494950](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23494950)

~~~
fredliu
"guilty by association" is easier to process mentally, for both sides. There
is a case to be made that a lot of the online anti-China rhetorics could be
attributed to the mentality of "because it's China", without digging into the
individual allegations to see if they are on sound grounds. On the other hand,
for the "pro-China" camp (no matter if you are in it by choice, or got thrown
into it), it's very easy to attribute any criticism against China to
"racism/they don't like China/The West is prejudiced against China" without
looking into the validity of individual criticism. The great danger of the
current day and age with social media, is that the mob on both sides will keep
the divide deeper, giving politicians, from both side, the levers they want to
achieve their own political goals, which may have nothing to do with the
various issues that caused the divide in the first place. The reality is
always nuanced, but sadly not convenient.

------
lukewrites
The headline seems to be getting a more attention than the content of the
article; that's disappointing, especially here on HN.

It seems like the author is expressing opinions that others in the comments
also hold:

> We should be worried about private companies and governments potentially
> collecting data on millions of unsuspecting people and censoring content
> they don’t like. But those based in China represent just a sliver of that
> threat.

> The answer isn’t to dismiss the potential menace of China’s surveillance
> programs, or to cheerlead for a rival set of tech oligarchs who simply
> happen to live in California and speak English.

> We should broaden the concerns and criticisms of TikTok and its relationship
> to China to tech firms more generally, and push for an across-the-board
> guarantee of online privacy and free speech for all of the world’s people,
> whether they’re more worried about being tracked and manipulated by people
> in the United States or China.

A bit utopian? Sure, but as so many here have already pointed out, this is
Jacobin ;)

------
sien
This is why the US is going after TikTok. It's social media that the US can't
access and a foreign government can.

The Europeans and the Indians who both have social media markets big enough to
support their own should play the same game that the Chinese and the Americans
are. That is, if there is any indication that foreign governments can access
the information and that your own government cannot they should ban the social
media application, search applications and mail applications and build their
own.

Right now there are effectively two countries in the world that have big
internet companies. The US and China.

It appears that China's protectionism in the internet has worked. It also
appears that the US is practising similar protectionism in regard to TikTok.
It's not completely unreasonable from either party.

The next step is that the other potential majors, the Europeans and the
Indians do the same.

It might even make a more interesting world. European and Indian TikToks,
Googles, Facebooks, AliBabas and so on.

~~~
DevKoala
The EU has already started protecting their citizens with GDPR.

~~~
sien
That's a very good point.

It would be interesting to see if the NSA care about it.

~~~
DevKoala
Whether the NSA cares about it or not doesn’t matter because the data
controller can still be sued for collecting the users data if the users opt
out. The controller has the motivation in this sense to comply.

My point is that if the USA is monitoring citizens from EU, it isn’t through
American businesses that intend to comply with GDPR.

------
yalogin
Why restrict it to silicon valley? Aren't there data collection companies all
over the country? Many of them are not visible to the public as they don't
offer any public facing functionality, so they get to do anything they want
and there is no hope of them getting twitter shamed either. The only answer is
a federal level law. To be fair, the article says this but the title somehow
calls out Silicon Valley.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
> Why restrict it to silicon valley?

1\. Silicon Valley is a metonym and does not exclusively refer to the
companies in it.

2\. Silicon Valley is where the most important and powerful new-era data
collection companies are.

------
devmunchies
Nice. Tiktok playing the media to focus on american companies. Hiring ex-
disney exec Kevin Mayer was the right move.

How about worrying about _all_ big government/business collecting data.

------
peacefulhat
I can understand a layman bashing Chinese companies for alleged spying but any
engineer should know better if they're not interested in addressing similar
issues in American companies and government. I think the best way would be to
require all software products to be open source (the source-available flavor,
not duplication), and additionally create a culture that refuses to accept
invasive tracking. A more ambitious approach would be to create a corps of
engineers that develop high quality open source alternatives to the current
tech stack with privacy as a paramount value - at bare minimum a new OS and
browser. Dunno if either would be successful but this jingoism about which
country's apps are more intrusive is obfuscating the problem.

------
ejz
I suppose that this is consistent with Jacobin's worldview, wherein the US
government is morally similar to the CCP. But for the rest of the rational
world this just doesn't compute.

------
brandonmenc
False dilemma. Both are worrisome, but the window for dealing with domestic
problems is much longer.

~~~
GaryNumanVevo
False False Dilemma. The article doesn't present data collection as an
either/or situation, the article takes the position that it's all bad
regardless of origin.

------
mooneater
You never know who is going to buy who, data leaks and hacks are rampant. Over
time this adds up.

So its safest to assume any digital data anywhere will eventually be in the
hands of any significant actor who really wants it. Its just a matter of how
long it takes to get there.

------
jimbobimbo
Data collection by domestic companies worries me, but it's much easier to
control/litigate/regulate issues domestically than abroad, especially if we're
dealing with geopolitical adversaries.

------
cblconfederate
> they happen to be situated in Western countries

They happen to be situated in USA specifically. It's the world's traffic
relay.

For Europeans, the best strategy is to arbtirage between the two poles in this
new Cold war. Some data goes to the US, some to China, this is useful when
either of them becomes too demanding.

------
zarkov99
Ah yes, as an American, I should be more scared of Google than the benevolence
of the CCP. That makes sense. Thanks Jacobin for such an unbiased take.

~~~
dredds
1 - "China vs America AI Race" by Eric “If you've got nothing to hide, you've
got nothing to fear” Schmidt. (note: all AI requires "spying", a-la Tesla
Autopilot, smart-watches etc)

2 - Eric Schmidt's Pentagon Offensive: "..through his own venture capital firm
and a [$15] billion fortune, Mr. Schmidt has invested millions of dollars into
more than half a dozen defense start-ups.. The former Google C.E.O. has
reinvented himself as the prime liaison between Silicon Valley and the
Military-Industrial Complex.

[1] [https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/china-versus-
am...](https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/china-versus-america-ai-
race-pandemic-by-eric-schmidt-and-graham-allison-2020-08)

[2] [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/02/technology/eric-
schmidt-p...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/02/technology/eric-schmidt-
pentagon-google.html)

~~~
zarkov99
Could you elaborate on what your point is? I am an American and I trust the
American government to look out for my interests a lot more than I do the
Chinese. In fact I have no problem at all with Schmidt's efforts to accelerate
AI usage in our military.

~~~
dredds
Watch "A Good American" (doco) and let me know if "the govt" (parts thereof)
have citizen's best interests at heart.

AI in the wrong hands (MIC) has been a warning in countless films. Competing
with China's Military by weaponizing AI is not the solution to a problem. It's
"becoming what you fear".

We've seen SV employees protest the moves their corporations are making
(facial recog, lethal robotics, etc) so Eric taking this out of Google into
"startups" is really skirting around the perception issue (ie. PR of doing
"evil").

~~~
zarkov99
The dichotomy here is between allowing the Chinese or the American governments
access to my information. Without reservation, if those are the choices, I
would prefer the former.

Perhaps competing with China in AI is not the perfect solution, though I
cannot think of a better one, but it sure beats being out competed by them.

There are no absolutes here, its about accepting that we live in an imperfect
world and picking the least bad outcomes we can.

------
euix
Who has potentially more leverage over you? Which entity or agent can apply
coercive forces to you? Worry about that person or organization.

------
bassman9000
_Although there’s no hard evidence, there is more than a good chance that the
data TikTok collects is, at the very least, accessible by the Chinese
government. As this ProtonMail report points out, not only does TikTok’s
privacy policy assert the right to share information with members of its
“corporate group,” which would include its parent company, but ByteDance’s CEO
has already promised to “further deepen cooperation” with official party
media, on top of the ideological censorship it has already engaged in on
behalf of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). What’s more, a 2017 law lets the
Chinese government force companies to secretly hand over data, including data
on foreign citizens._

Again, because of all the places, it's most tiring to have to repeat this in
HN:

 _[...] ByteDance’s CEO has already promised to “further deepen cooperation”
with official party media, on top of the ideological censorship it has already
engaged in on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP)._

 _What’s more, a 2017 law lets the Chinese government force companies to
secretly hand over data, including data on foreign citizens._

------
Uhhrrr
I've been trying to figure out why there's so much heightened concern over
TikTok.

Is it possible that the NSA and other Five Eyes can't spy on its messaging?

EDIT: Or maybe just that they're worried about that possibility in the future?

~~~
creato
I really doubt it has much to do with messaging at all. It's more about the
ability to disseminate and control messages the public sees, especially in a
"narrowcasted" way.

Political forces in the US are constantly trying to influence facebook and
twitter's content control policies. What does that look like when it's the CCP
doing it?

Think creatively here, it's not just going to be Chinese flags overlaid on
everything. Just amplifying stupid/criminal/vulgar/etc. content (more than the
internet already does) could have a subtle but significant negative effect.

~~~
Uhhrrr
Worse than World Star HipHop?

------
spanhandler
Silicon Valley's data collection should worry most US citizens more than
TikTok's, yes, totally, 100% agree, break them all up, ban all that crap, burn
it all down, yes, I am with you.

... but one _hopes_ data collection concerns aren't the real reasons for going
after TikTok, but instead that it's part of tit-for-tat action aimed at
getting China to accept and enact more aspects of the bargain for joining the
global free-market economy, rather than just the parts that help it. They've
chosen "defect" for like 2.5 decades, which I'm pretty sure was basically
expected to happen back when they were allowed to join the club, but _had
better not_ be tolerated indefinitely.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
> part of tit-for-tat action aimed at getting China to accept and enact more
> aspects of the bargain for joining the global free-market economy

The President has spent his term undermining such concepts.

~~~
spanhandler
I'd say his actions on Chinese trade have been the closest thing to a coherent
policy he's had on anything whatsoever, actually. His other trade actions have
been, uh, scattershot, to put it very nicely, yes, and I doubt you could come
up with an assessment of his presidency as a whole negative enough that I'd
disagree with it.

------
mnm1
Isn't this obvious? What's China going to do with an American's data? Mine it
and store it. What can the US do with the data it grabs from US companies?
Land you in jail or worse. What can other US entities do with that data? Raise
prices. Blacklist you. Sell it to other companies to do the same. Sell it to
the government to put you in jail. Unless someone has ties to China or
lives/visit China, the Chinese can't do shit. They could have a data breach as
can anyone, but I bet they have better security practices and worse
consequences for disclosure (so nations can't get proof of the data
collection) than any US entity. This should all be quite obvious.

------
messick
Geez, people are really going the extra mile trying to justify something that
100% happened because Trump heard about how the TikTok Teens ruined the Tulsa
rally.

------
TheBobinator
"Trump’s latest gambit to distract from his monumental mismanagement of the
pandemic response"

This is why I don't read articles like this. 2nd sentance in and we're bashing
the president for what purpose exactly?

------
thebeefytaco
While I don't trust silicon valley or China with my data, there's a big
difference between US corporate interests and that of communist China.

~~~
justicezyx
What are the differences then?

And why do you think CCP has control over TikTok?

Edit: What are you implying here?

Some CCP members are having party activities inside a private company.

Are they plotting a plan to force Mr. Zhang Yiming to spy on US teenagees?

Or are they just doing the typical CCP "study" activity to learn the retheroic
from Mr. Xi?

Who are these guys, are they senior executives in the company? Or random
employees who are CCP members.

In the end, what do you want to get from the picture, depends a lot on your
prejudice.

~~~
jimbobimbo
RE: Why?

[https://mobile.twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1291879371461...](https://mobile.twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1291879371461070849)
for example.

"More than 130 employees at ByteDance, the Chinese owner of video-sharing
application TikTok, are part of a Chinese Communist Party (CCP) committee
embedded in the company. Many of the employees work in management positions,
an internal document reveals."

[https://m.theepochtimes.com/mkt_app/tiktoks-parent-
company-e...](https://m.theepochtimes.com/mkt_app/tiktoks-parent-company-
employs-ccp-members-in-its-highest-ranks_3451561.html)

~~~
justicezyx
Again, what do you want to derive from the fact?

Associating CCP is a crime?

Note that there is only one party who claims to be totally devoted to serving
people. That's CCP.

Can I claim that these CCP members are helping bytedance to better serve it's
customers, and help curbe the greedy capitalists from infringing Chinese
citizen's privacy?

Or are they finally granted power over the bytedance company? I.e., are they
organized to study Mr. Xi's thoughts, or trying to dictate the company's
policy etc.

~~~
jimbobimbo
I was answering the "Why do you think CCP has control over TikTok?" question.
Epoch Times article provides enough information to make someone _think_ that
CCP _may have_ control over TikTok.

My position on associating with CCP is irrelevant for the original question,
but since you asked now, - yes, associating with a communist party (Chinese or
otherwise) while not a crime, is not a good thing either. I'm an immigrant
from ex-USSR and I've seen first hand what "party who claims to be totally
devoted to serving people" means in the real world. You can associate with
whom you want, but I wouldn't want any entity associating with a communist
party touch any aspect of my life, let alone my data.

~~~
justicezyx
Have you been China and take a look at how it's like today?

CCP still do horrible thing, like Xinjiang concentration camp.

But it's major part is different than USSR, at least it practices market
economy, with private sector as it's main economy driver.

I want people to understand how China works in its reality, not illusion
created by media.

~~~
jimbobimbo
Sorry, but this comment is ironic on multiple levels.

First off, it's exactly the same logic that communists used in USSR. "Look at
these beautiful Moscow Subway stations!" (nevermind the gulags); or "Hey,
citizen! Go ahead and celebrate and march for the International Workers' Day!"
(nevermind the fallout from Chernobyl is peaking).

Second, in the context of the article we're discussing (who is more worrisome
from data collection perspective - CCP or SV), why me - the foreigner - would
have any illusions of being treated better than China's own citizens
(Uyghurs)? Granted, I won't be put into the camp, but to think that my data
would be treated with any respect, is to be naive.

~~~
justicezyx
> the same logic that communists used in USSR

I dont think it's the same, at least not to what I understand.

You have plenty of means to travel freely inside China. As long as you don't
engage obvious news reporting activities. That can be proved from numerous
videos on Youtube.

Second, you are again making the associative thinking, which I painstakingly
trying to point out. Of cuz context matters, and time changes; even today, the
concentration camp is less brutal than it was a few years ago. And again,
Chinese government has not been actually caught on spying foreign citizens. It
certainly spy on its own citizens, which is bad. But you cannot just say that
because they might be doing that, then they _must_ be doing that...

Should you be worried that your Tiktok usage data be spyed by Chinese
government? Of cuz, I dont use any of bytedance apps, I dont use any FB apps,
I never discuss sensitive information on Wechat.

But does that warrant that we can ban the company without legal process? No...

------
MattGaiser
When Google starts to have any inclination to put a bag over my head if I
search the wrong thing, sure.

When Google starts having an interest in being able to blackmail people to get
them to spy on their country or give up IP, then sure.

When the US Government can unilaterally demand security cooperation from
Google in any way, shape, or form like the Chinese government can, then sure.

When the tech companies actually start censoring aggressively and hunting
people down(rather than just removing enough to satisfy angry people), then
sure.

One problem is the data. The other (larger) problem is how each controlling
entity wants to use the data.

Google wants to sell ads. They don’t care about your porn preferences, whether
you have a mistress, or whether you do drugs. Maybe the ads approach is
obnoxious, but that is all it is. They want to sell stuff, not take over the
world.

The Government of China wants power. They want influence. They want
information. They want control. And no Chinese company is allowed to refuse
its pursuit of those.

And even if both countries required the same absolute cooperation from their
tech companies, governments In the West are very limited in their ability to
take the kind of actions against their citizens that the Government of China
can.

The US Government isn’t even allowed to tax a newspaper excessively, yet alone
throw the editor in jail for running critical content.

~~~
xvector
Comments like this demonstrate a severe lack of understanding around how
intelligence today in the US works, especially in a post-Snowden world. Our
government routinely performs dystopian forced mass-surveillance of citizens
accompanied by gag orders.

> _When Google starts to have any inclination to put a bag over my head if I
> search the wrong thing, sure._ > _When Google starts having an interest in
> being able to blackmail people to get them to spy on their country or give
> up IP, then sure._

The CCP could have all the data they want on you but there is almost nothing
they can do about it because an ocean and a military separates you, outside
some fringe cases.

The NSA, however, can and will use data they collect on you against you. The
US government is no stranger to this, where COINTELPRO [1] used the results of
domestic spying to try to put an early end to MLK and the Civil Rights
Movement.

The US has caused demonstrable harm to citizens via surveillance yet you seem
to support it compared to the less dangerous alternative out of some misplaced
sense of patriotism.

> _When the US Government can unilaterally demand security cooperation from
> Google in any way, shape, or form like the Chinese government can, then
> sure._

Have you not heard of PRISM? The NSA? National Security Letters? The US
routinely can and does force companies to give up information on citizens in
the form of dragnet surveillance. One way to do this is a National Security
Letter [2].

> _Google wants to sell ads. They don’t care about your porn preferences,
> whether you have a mistress, or whether you do drugs_

And neither does the CCP. Neither does the NSA, actually, unless they want
something from you and to force you to do something.

> _The Government of China wants power. They want influence. They want
> information. They want control. And no Chinese company is allowed to refuse
> its pursuit of those._

Welcome to participating on a global scale. The US isn't the only country
allowed to be a superpower. It's probably not good if China surpasses the US,
but the US also doesn't have anywhere close to the moral high ground w.r.t.
domestic surveillance as you mention.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO)

[2]: [https://www.eff.org/issues/national-security-
letters](https://www.eff.org/issues/national-security-letters)

~~~
MattGaiser
> Our government routinely performs dystopian forced mass-surveillance of
> citizens accompanied by gag orders.

With nowhere near the same implications.

> The US government is no stranger to this, where COINTELPRO [1] used the
> results of domestic spying to try to put an early end to MLK and the Civil
> Rights Movement.

The big difference being that COINTELPRO was not done with the authorization
of Congress and instead lead to a Congressional investigation and later the
Senate Intelligence Committee to provide oversight [1]. The airing of those
abuses culminated in additional oversight of domestic intelligence activities.

In China, the airing of those abuses would end with the journalists being
censored/bagged.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee)

> The CCP could have all the data they want on you but there is almost nothing
> they can do about it

Oceans are a great shield against blackmail...

> One way to do this is a National Security Letter

A National Security Letter is hardly an absolute order. They can be reviewed
by a judge. They cannot include requests for content like messages. Those
require a warrant. They can be beaten in court. They are not a broad tool that
the NSA can apply as they wish for whatever ends they wish. Not only that,
citizens are allowed to oppose it and elect legislators to repeal them.

> And neither does the CCP. Neither does the NSA, actually, unless they want
> something from you and to force you to do something.

Except there is a massive difference in what each wants from you.

> but the US also doesn't have anywhere close to the moral high ground w.r.t.
> domestic surveillance as you mention.

The lack of prisons full of political dissidents who committed thought crimes
on the internet puts them head and shoulders above. The existence of an
independent judiciary does as well.

~~~
manquer
> A National Security Letter is hardly an absolute order.

What % of NSL has been turned down ? FISA warrant rejection rate is like 12
for 30,000+ warrants. For all intents it is absolute order if the Courts
hardly reject it.

> The lack of prisons full of political dissidents ...

Your prisons are fuller than any other large developed country more than 3
million people are in prison, your judicial systems are racially and
economically biased . In a country embodying capitalism, is this not worse
than putting dissidents in prison? At least they actually have to dissent
before being put in jail, here the system is rigged such that poor hardly have
a vote or voice, rich keep paying lower tax than middle class, and gets
exploited and still _happily_ vote for the people robbing them blind.

Perhaps you have better rights as a citizen, the rest of us around the globe
not so much.

China does not kill by drone extra judicially outside their country. I don't
have to be afraid of clear skies.

I don't have to as afraid that I will be grabbed by Chinese Intelligence to a
black site like Guantanamo bay with no legal course or judicial oversight.

I need to be lot more worried of U.S. funding and meddling in local politics
than of China. Every single time U.S. has engaged in covert/ overt meddling in
ME/Lat Am , Far East etc, it has always lead to lot of death and suffering.

For citizens of the world there is no protection, If I do business with FAANG
outside the U.S. and even if keep my data outside, still U.S. courts have full
rights to grab my data, against my country laws under which the tech giants
supposed to operate in my country .

For all your rights and amendments against surveillance and wire-tapping _on
paper_ , the rest of the world has none. Your security agencies can legally
monitor at anyone at will without _any_ oversight.

U.S. companies have and continue to backdoor / frontdoor everywhere in the
world as they please, and suffer no consequences.

Privacy and basic human rights should not be just American right, I hope rest
of us get treated as humans too in your system.

Does it make China better? of course not! it is not whataboutism. _Both are
bad_.

For rest of us, the U.S. has already done lot more damage. China will do lot
more damage in the future no doubt, but today U.S. is in no position to talk .

~~~
gruez
>At least they actually have to dissent before being put in jail,

I mean, can't you say the same about the US? All you have to do is not commit
crimes.

edit:

>China does not kill by drone extra judicially outside their country. I don't
have to be afraid of clear skies.

A few comments down: [https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/29/the-disappeared-
china-r...](https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/29/the-disappeared-china-
renditions-kidnapping/)

~~~
mempko
There are hundreds of thousands sitting in US prisons who haven't been
convicted because they can't post bail. There are judges being paid in the
back by private prisons to convict and send innocent people to jail because
it's good for business. US prison and justice system is completely broken.

~~~
CodeShmode
Over-incarceration is big problem yes, but a red herring to the direct
targeting and silencing of all political opposition.

~~~
mempko
They are taking people off streets in unmarked vans for protesting against
police brutality and for BLM in the USA. If that isn't "being targeted for
political opposition" Then i don't know what is.

~~~
gruez
At least you can plausibility make the case that they've committed some sort
of crime (eg. property damage). Also, AFAIK no one had been "disappeared" (ie.
they were released one or two days after). To be clear, the administration's
actions were despicable and may be unconstitutional, but they're nowhere close
to the actions that the CCP takes against dissidents and journalists. We
haven't seen trump kidnap journalists from the "mainstream media" that he
hates so much, for instance.

~~~
manquer
Those things are _illegal_ in China . Every country has its own idea of laws
and freedoms . We may not like it , but according to their laws it is a legal
action

For example , It is hard for me to see why drugs are criminalised so much in
the U.S. a little weed could get you 10 years in prison till few years back
,civil forfeiture, abortion laws or why laws in your country all horrify me.

To understand guns laws , I will have to understand the rationale of second
amendment the long history of gun ownership.

Similarly to under China today , there is 2,000 year history you will need to
keep in context .

Again not defending China , it is important to see how we see things coloured
by our own biases.

~~~
gruez
>Those things are illegal in China . Every country has its own idea of laws
and freedoms . We may not like it , but according to their laws it is a legal
action

Oh please, give me a break. There's no rule of law in China, only rule by law.
Just ask the Canadians that _just happened_ to break some law _right after_
Meng got detained in Canada.

Also, "damaging property" as a crime and being detained near the scene of a
protest turned violent is way more universally accepted as illegal than
whatever trumped up charges of "spreading false rumors" that the Chinese legal
system levies against dissidents.

~~~
klyrs
> There's no rule of law in China, only rule by law.

There's an epidemic of extrajudicial killings in the US right now. Indefinite
detention without trial and torture have been normalized under three
presidents, and one can't expect change there under Biden, so we're looking at
a quarter century of these policies at a minimum.

The danger of whataboutism is that the US doesn't have a leg to stand on
anymore.

The most recent execution of Canadians in China have been on drug charges.
They had trials, it's crime and punishment by the books. Sure, it's
politically motivated, but is it worse than a drug dealer getting shot dead
while running away from a police officer?

And when we look at the history of criminalizing drug use and possession,
who's responsible? China started cracking down because the British demand for
opium was harmful to the Chinese people. The US started, and continues to
wage, a "war on drugs" which was really a war on marginalized populations and
an excuse to exercise imperial power in the middle east and south america.
Rule by law, indeed.

------
product50
Whoever the author is, I hope that he doesn't have a Uighur relative in
Xinjiang in jail trying to get reformed and a friend in Hong Kong trying to
free the country.

If you were in China, you couldn't even write an article criticizing Tiktok
like here the author here is writing an article criticizing SV. Have some
perspective.

------
dicomdan
Great, now we have Jacobin articles pushed to the top page of HN. Breitbart
next?

~~~
GaryNumanVevo
Do people consider Jacobin to be far right? If so that's a hilarious
misreading

~~~
missedthecue
They're self declared socialists. And not medicare for all type socialism.
They hold just as disgusting an ideology as breitbart.

~~~
mempko
Really like what? Any links to a disgusting article?

~~~
missedthecue
Admiring obituary for the founder of National Bolshevism.

[https://jacobinmag.com/2020/03/eduard-limonov-
obituary](https://jacobinmag.com/2020/03/eduard-limonov-obituary)

They're a propaganda piece, not a news outlet. Just a propoganda piece
promoting murderous ideology, and it's even named after murderers who teamed
up with slave owners.

~~~
what_is_this
And they operate in a country founded by slave owners

~~~
missedthecue
That certainly doesn't help things does it?

------
m0zg
The fact that the US press is willing to carry water for the Chinese Communist
Party worries me more than Silicon Valley data collection, TBH.

~~~
seneca
This is Jacobin Magazine, an openly socialist publication. You shouldn't take
their position as an indication of anything with regard to typical media.

I don't value much of what Jacobin has to say, but I would be more worried if
there weren't voices able to say these things. You won't see an analog to this
in China.

~~~
m0zg
Mainstream press is quite willing to carry water for the CCP as well:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/chinese-
ambassador-c...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/chinese-ambassador-
cui-tiankai-blaming-china-will-not-end-this-
pandemic/2020/05/05/4e1d61dc-8f03-11ea-a9c0-73b93422d691_story.html)

~~~
seneca
I have no love for most of our media and find it deeply corrupt, but that is
an opinion piece and is clearly labeled as such. Not saying your wider point
is wrong by any means though.

------
anm89
Jacobin Mag worries me more than silicon valley.

------
natalyarostova
These US is just as bad as China hot takes are so stupid.

~~~
what_is_this
I don't think "as bad" is the point. It's not a moral discussion, who is doing
the spying is irrelevant.

The article literally says "Oppose It All". "Silicon Valley and the NSA would
love us to think that it’s who does the spying, not the spying itself, that’s
the real problem."

------
AniseAbyss
Its really simple: Silicon Valley makes the US a shitton of money and keeps
the US a superpower.

You will not get Americans to give it up. You will not get any US politician
to slay the golden goose.

