

Why I'm Quitting Gmail - etherealG
http://archlinux.me/dusty/2009/08/23/why-im-quitting-gmail/

======
wcarss
The response to this situation is the thing I take most offense with.

Google has too long operated on this notion - one we were exposed to in Fight
Club, and horrified by - that reaction is an equation of cost. If they're
nobody, fuck them. If they trumpet their displeasure on a blog, and no one
cares? Fuck them. Oh -- people noticed? It hit an aggregator? Fix the problem
promptly. They are now defused.

It's economical, reasonable even, but golly, it sure is /evil/.

It used to surprise us! It used to be that that would be the intriguing twist
- "Google contacted them shortly afterward and fixed it! How quaint! We love
google!" - but no more. Now it becomes clear that this is simply their
practice. If you're being too loud about the shitty time you've had at Google
they silence you. You either report that "there's nothing wrong now", or
you're hiding information and being a bad netizen.

In this particular case, the user brought up an issue with their lack of
communication or a face to deal with. Google responded by fixing an account
without establishing any communication or providing an explanation. Notice the
incongruity between response and complaint, and see how ineffective it is this
time.

What happens when the failures are too common for people to take notice? When
Google making a big mistake is just regular, shitty life, and no one cares
enough to post it on an aggregator? No one's problems will be fixed, then.

Google's tipping point in public favour has arrived - they are evil. Blogs
have questioned when it would hit for a long time, and I think it's safe to
suppose the inevitable backlash has begun. I'm planning to move to a private
mail server where there's some shred of accountability as soon as I can. And I
swear, I used to absolutely love Google.

~~~
motoko
It's not evil to fix a machine when its users publish that the machine not
working as expected.

It's not evil to refuse a human conversation regarding that machine.

You want reasons? What, some phone operator is going to be able to know the
specifics of your exact circumstance and the entire Google system at a
moment's notice and produce for you an actionable response? For all people in
the world? For free?

You would prefer hold music and a canned response?

I'd prefer if Google fixed the problem as fast as possible. I prefer if that
process didn't require my input, and Google probably doesn't need your input
to fix their machines anyways.

~~~
wcarss
I agree with your overarching point here, that a broken machine or account
shouldn't need to have the customer call or email a support line to get it
fixed, and that customer support tends to suck -- especially any sort of
support we would expect for 'free'.

However, we are not straddling a line between "customer has to file a
complaint to get things fixed" and "things are fixed automatically", where the
superior option is automatic fixes and no customer involvement. We are between
"customer has the ability to file a complaint, because things don't get fixed
on their own" and "customer is forced to call a great deal of public attention
to themselves in order to get Google to notice or care, and hopefully fix
things", where the superior option (in my mind) is the ability to file a
formal complaint which actually gets a response.

Particularly in a case like this, where there is no machine failure or error,
but instead a calculated judgement to terminate a user's account with no clear
reasoning provided, just some vague "risk" they present to advertisers, I feel
that some accountability needs to be had.

Most egregiously, this case raises a serious question of Conflict of Interest.
By pulling advertising to an open source project which 'competes' with some of
Google's (and their affiliates'/advertisers') products, and being absolutely
opaque about their reasoning, Google risks coming off as anticompetitive and
ruthless - running some of the little guys out of town by cutting off a
funding source. If that was at all part of their motive or reasoning, it
absolutely was 'evil'.

If they would just provide clear reasoning, a reasonable degree of
transparency, and some form of complaint system where you at least have a
chance of hearing back, a lot of negative sentiment wouldn't be coming their
way. It's clear that the PR/damage control response isn't carrying the same
sway it used to, and also that it was never a special interaction, just
visible end users being quieted down to save face.

~~~
apotheon
Apparently, Google has decided that its formal complaint system is "the
Internet". We should all abide by Google's wishes and, as long as no internal
complaint system appears, use the Internet as our complaint system, calling
public attention to such problems so that Google will notice and do something
about it.

If that happens enough, and each such complaint contains some reference to the
fact that it only appeared on the Internet where Google can see it because
Google doesn't provide a more satisfactory, direct line of communication, I
suspect Google will eventually rectify that little oversight.

~~~
motoko
> Apparently, Google has decided that its formal complaint system is "the
> Internet."

Apparently that works if you're Google.

------
shadytrees
Your complaint with Google is:

    
    
        ( ) Their uneasy relationship with a country's government
        (x) You just realized they control all your data
        ( ) You just realized they control all your business
        (x) You just realized they have terrible customer support
        ( ) They're innovating too slowly
        ( ) They're innovating too quickly
    

Your response is:

    
    
        ( ) Grudgingly accept it, writing about it
        (x) Grudgingly quit, writing about it
        ( ) Litigation, writing about it
    

This will fail because:

    
    
        ( ) You don't really want to accept it
        (x) You don't really want to quit
        (x) They control all your data
        ( ) They control all your business

~~~
dfranke
Definite meme potential here if you can flesh this out to the length of the /.
spam solution form.

------
Maro
Until recently, when I bought used books from Alibris, I payed with Google
Checkout. Then I found something peculiar, it appeared as if Google charged my
CC twice per transaction ('). I went to my Google account, searched around,
and found no way to contact Google and ask them what's up. I immediately
remembered the stories about people having their accounts killed and not being
able to contact Google and get a meaningful answer, because it is their policy
not to waste resources on customer support. Google even went to court to
defend its practice.

Anyway, I now avoid Google Checkout whenever possible as it's too much of a
black box.

(') Alibris customer support told me they aren't actually charging twice the
money, the first is a "virtual transaction" that makes sure I have the
appropriate funds.

~~~
kgrin
We have an app for sale on the Android Market (which uses Google Checkout for
transaction processing), and it seems like every week we have a support email
claiming we charged them twice.

We always apologize (even though it's not our fault), explain how the
authorization charge works, assure them it'll be gone in a day, and point them
to Google's help (bottom of):
[http://market.android.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&an...](http://market.android.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=118685)

I do wonder why it's done that way on Checkout and not other payment systems,
or why it seems more noticeable there; it seems to cause an awful lot of
confusion.

~~~
Maro
Even as a power-user, I can tell you it's confusing as hell. Can't you use
PayPal?

~~~
mbrubeck
The Android Market application uses only Google Checkout. There's no PayPal
(or any other) option.

------
ZeroGravitas
Using gmail only as a convenient web interface for email addresses belonging
to a domain you own and control, and backing it up elsewhere is a sensible
step for any geek.

Similar applies to any of their other systems that you put anything valuable
into. And not just Google, Twitter etc. too.

------
Keyframe
Google's lack of customer support baffles me - how can anyone do business with
them and take them seriously? Obviously, people do - and it is a mystery to me
- myself included.

What I find even more shocking is that they got response and re instantiation
of account after news hit the reddit. Why double standards then? Why not
uphold the wall of silence once the shit hit the fan? It is unprofessional and
cowardly.

Google really needs to work on it's transparency towards business clientele -
this is their "major weak point for massive damage". I can't remember exactly,
but I remember that sometime in the past microsoft tried to implement
adwords/adsense platform... I don't know where/why it stopped.

~~~
nvoorhies
Does google think of their users as their customers, or just as products they
sell to their advertisers?

------
robotrout
This leads me to a question that's nagged me, so I'll pose it here.

I am becoming more and more dependent upon google services. Picasa, Gmail, and
Docs are my top 3.

I've recently started doing Adwords/Adsense stuff. Both of these pose the risk
of "getting in trouble". Google could decide my Adsense clicks are fraudulent,
or my Adwords sites are "dangerous to advertisers".

My question. I assume that if Google has a problem with you on any of their
services, they block you from all of their services. Your account is suspended
"across the board", since it's really just one account.

Is this true? Should I segregate my Adwords/Adsense from the rest of my Google
activities into different accounts?

~~~
Tobias42
Once a site of mine on Google Sites accidentally got suspended, but I still
could use Adsense with the same account.

------
anupj
Maybe I'm being naive here, but why are you quitting Gmail, when the problem
is clearly with Adsense. I understand that you are furious at Google, and from
what you've said you have every right to be; But why stop at Gmail, why not
quit Google Search as well :).

I hope Google gets back to you with a more reasonable explaination.

~~~
KWD
I'd say because Google is clearly not interested in customer service. If they
were, you'd not see all the stories of people unable to contact them to
resolve issues with so many of their services.

So, why trust them with something as important as your email when they fail at
other things?

Personally, I use a gmail account for non-important communication, and my
primary remains a Yahoo account. I've never had a problem contacting a live
person with any Yahoo service, or getting back a response that actually shows
they read what I wrote.

Customer service is an area where Google could learn from yahoo, but I doubt
they care to implement such an infrastructure.

~~~
jedc
I'd say Google is more interested in customer service where you pay them
(AdWords) than where they pay you (AdSense) or where they give you stuff for
free (Gmail, everything else).

~~~
dhimes
Not really, in my experience. I sell educational software, but sometimes my ad
gets flagged as a "term page writing service" or something or other (not real
clear). Getting it cleared past the flag has taken over a week on occasion,
and there is nothing that can help.

And the term-pages sales guys get their ads through anyway!

------
Readmore
I recently had a similar problem with Google and my AdWords account. My
quality score fell from an 8 to a 0 with no explanation and no way to correct
the situation.

If Google decides not to let you play in their network you're just out of
luck. It's worse than the Apple App Store process.

------
mhd
If only gmail weren't that good. I'm not too excited about the way composing
emails works, but the organizing features are pretty great. It's been a while
since I looked, but other webmail providers just couldn't compete. For some
kind of reason, they're trying to reinvent Outlook with AJAX -- not a new
idea, if I remember the history of the 'X' part correctly.

I'd even be interested in a good OSS package for hosting your own service, but
there, too, I haven't seen anything approaching gmails usability.

If I were looking for a access-mail-anywhere solution, it looks like I would
have to switch back to GNUS and get an Emacs 23 server somewhere...

------
apotheon
Perhaps ironically, I agree that Microsoft had some good keyboards and
pointing devices -- but that was about ten years ago. Since then, they've
trended downward in quality. I'm not so impressed in even the mice and
keyboards these days.

Since we don't know what questions they asked Google -- all we know is some of
the response -- I'm hesitant to just go with the assumption that Google
refuses to answer the posed questions.

~~~
dfranke
The heavy, cream-colored two-button serial mice were the best on the market at
the time, and the Sidewinder Pro was a very nice joystick. The mice they sell
today are simply ordinary, and no keyboard of theirs has ever held a candle to
the old IBMs or the current DAS keyboards (among others).

On the other hand, Windows 7 is the first Microsoft OS since 3.11 that I can
use for a full day without doing unhealthy things to my blood pressure.

~~~
apotheon
My all-time favorite pointing device was an optical trackball from Microsoft
(I forget the model name). I haven't found one of those since the last I had
one was stolen (yes, really) back in 2003ish.

The IBM Model M [1] (and certain imitators), the Das Keyboard [2], the HP
Wireless Elite [3], and even the keyboards on Thinkpads [4] are among my all-
time top-five favorite keyboards. The original run of Microsoft Natural
keyboards [5] (back before they became bulbous "multimedia" train wrecks of UI
design [6][7]) were a very distant fifth place, though.

1: <http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=61>

2: <http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=1193>

3: <http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=865>

4:
[http://media.laptoplogic.com/data/reviews/images/73/keyboard...](http://media.laptoplogic.com/data/reviews/images/73/keyboard.jpg)

5:
[http://images.tigerdirect.com/skuimages/large/M17-1806-main....](http://images.tigerdirect.com/skuimages/large/M17-1806-main.jpg)

6: <http://www.pctechguide.com/images/51NaturalKeyboard.jpg>

7: <http://tinyurl.com/na5pos>

~~~
greyboy
You mean one of these? Yeah, Microsoft could make some good money bringing
these back. I know I'd worry less about mine biting the dust.

[http://cgi.ebay.com/New-SEALED-RETAIL-PACKAGE-Microsoft-
Opti...](http://cgi.ebay.com/New-SEALED-RETAIL-PACKAGE-Microsoft-Optical-
Trackball_W0QQitemZ260462385106QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item3ca4c497d2&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

[http://cgi.ebay.com/SEALED-BULK-RETAIL-PACKAGE-Microsoft-
Opt...](http://cgi.ebay.com/SEALED-BULK-RETAIL-PACKAGE-Microsoft-Optical-
Trackball_W0QQitemZ270442159660QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item3ef79bde2c&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

[http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft-TrackBall-Optical-Mouse-
PS-2-U...](http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft-TrackBall-Optical-Mouse-PS-2-USB-
refurbished_W0QQitemZ130325738876QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item1e5804f57c&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

~~~
apotheon
Yes! That's the one.

. . . and no, I'm not willing to buy a trackball off eBay. Maybe I should
start searching for old stock of these things again, though.

------
adrianwaj
"We thank you in advance for your understanding and cooperation." ~ Google

What's the word for that?

------
elbenshira
I can understand Google's reasoning. I doubt people browsing the Arch Linux
website are going to click on the ads. Google probably pays Arch Linux per
impression, so Google and the advertiser are losing money. And what's Google
to do, tell you that your users are just too smart to click on any ads? They
pretty much did:

    
    
        while going through our records recently,
        we found that your AdSense account has posed a
        significant risk to our AdWords advertisers.

~~~
warfangle
I thought AdWords was primarily CPC, not CPM?

~~~
elbenshira
Both? Source:
[https://www.google.com/adsense/support/bin/answer.py?answer=...](https://www.google.com/adsense/support/bin/answer.py?answer=9902)

------
llimllib
I wish I could pay someone to maintain a backup of my gmail account.

~~~
ramchip
You can, even for free...

<http://www.messagebunker.com/>

~~~
aaronkaplan
Thanks for that link, I searched for something like that a while back and
didn't find it.

But I worry about cloud-to-cloud backup services like this. If a major email
provider goes down, all of its users will be trying to retrieve their backups
at the same time. What are the chances the backup service will actually be
able to handle this traffic? It's like a run on a bank.

------
Semiapies
I have to admit, after that court case awhile back where it turned out the
"wronged party" was abusing the Hell out of the terms of service, I'm deeply
skeptical of anyone who claims Google yanked their account for "no reason".

Naturally, though, the blog poster has no way to _prove_ he did everything by-
the-book. And the account was reinstated. So it's a sticky matter.

Transparency on Google's part would only help.

------
plainspace
all great points. i love gmail's bells and whistles but there is something a
little unsettling about how they "handle" customer service.

------
davidmathers
If only Kafka were still alive.

~~~
cdibona
He'd downvote you for bringing him up.

~~~
davidmathers
I understand your team loyalty. But if this isn't Kafka-esque, what is?

This is at least the third one of these I've seen on HN. Always the same
story. Josef K. gets accused by google of bad behavior but he has no idea why
and can't get anyone at google to tell him.

------
shiranaihito
_Update: This post unexpectedly hit Reddit, and within a few hours, Aaron got
another e-mail telling us that our Adsense account had been reinstated._

Ah, the "significant risk to AdWords advertisers" must have suddenly ceased to
exist then! Or perhaps the risk is just preferable to the risk this article
caused to Google.

