
EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament - DiabloD3
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120625/12333619468/eu-commissioner-reveals-he-will-simply-ignore-any-rejection-acta-european-parliament-next-week.shtml
======
Nursie
The commission needs to be neutered before the EU can be considered truly
democratic. The fact that this guy can come straight out and say he's going to
ignore court rulings and the democratic will of the elected MEPs with no fear
of reprisals, because he's not elected, yet he can hold so much power ... it's
sick.

~~~
paol
Sadly the parliament is essentially a powerless organ by design. The problem
is that the european commission accumulates both executive power and most of
the legislative power, where the later should lie with parliament.

The end result is that the parliament is basically a farcical attempt to give
the appearance of democratic legitimacy to the EU legislative process, but the
farce is transparent enough that it just ends up tainting the public
perception of the EU institutions.

There are political reasons for this arrangement of course, but I don't want
to turn this into (more of) a rant. [EDIT: I end up going into that in this
other post: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4161285>]

~~~
Angostura
The EP can impeach the Commission - unfortunately only the whole Commission
rather than an individual Commissioner.

~~~
rwallace
Sounds like it's time for them to do just that - if this sort of open contempt
for the democratic process and the rule of law doesn't qualify as adequate
grounds, nothing does.

What's the best channel by which to call for that action?

~~~
Luc
This is just sophistry now. The commissioner is playing the role he's supposed
to play in the EU institutions, and I have seen no indication that he's done
anything illegal or held the parliament in contempt.

~~~
cabalamat
> I have seen no indication that he's done anything illegal or held the
> parliament in contempt

He's said he will ignore the decisons arrived at by the democratically elected
representatives of the people. That seems a pretty clear indication to me.

~~~
BHSPitMonkey
What the parent commenter is saying is that he is technically acting within
the legal bounds of his office. That is, impeachment will be impossible unless
an actual violation of law is found.

~~~
cabalamat
> That is, impeachment will be impossible unless an actual violation of law is
> found.

The European parliament can't impreach the commission. What it can do is sack
them (but all of them, not just one). No evidence of illegality is needed.

------
josteink
Someone this determined to do something so wrong cannot be assumed to be
neutral. This guy must be corrupt and on someone's pay-list.

It would be in the EU's interest to start an investigation of Karel De Gucht
to determine if this person is bribed and if these proceedings is a result of
corruption. The EU would be wise to do so for its own business sake and before
it's perception as a democratic body is tarnished in favour of a US-led
corrupt legislative-body.

If the EU loses its perception as democratic, chances are that the rich and
populous democracies which funds it will be forced to stop doing so. If it's
one thing the EU cannot afford right now, that is one of them.

~~~
PotatoEngineer
He doesn't have to be corrupt; he simply has to believe that ACTA is good for
Europe. If he's trying to circumvent various obstacles in his way, it's
because he thinks they're wrong.

~~~
jhdevos
European commissioners have two undesirable attributes: * Far too much power *
Low public visibility

If they perceive their job as "governing this part of the world without paying
much attention to what lesser people are saying", then that is partly because
we have defined their job in that way. (And, of course, that will attract the
wrong kind of people).

Reform is needed.

------
beeneto
Since I know techdirt always reports aggressively in favour of internet
freedom I read the direct quotes first and the techdirt commentary afterwards.
From just the quotes, Karel De Gucht doesn't seem to be saying anything
underhanded, just that if parliament doesn't ratify ACTA it will be modified
(presumably toned down?) and resubmitted.

I don't think techdirt's message "The european government is a corrupt
puppet!" is supported by the evidence in this article. Personally the fact
that every committe which has reviewed ACTA has advised against it gives me
hope.

~~~
sasvari
_just that if parliament doesn't ratify ACTA it will be modified (presumably
toned down?) and resubmitted_

ACTA can't be _modified_ anymore, it is signed (yet not ratified in the EU)!

Edit: style

~~~
beeneto
Ah okay, so when he says "I would consider proposing some clarifications to
ACTA" he's just blowing smoke - talking about making cosmetic statements about
ACTA which would encourage parliament to ratify it, but wouldn't actually fix
the abuse cases that come from the vague wording?

~~~
yread
Whenever I hear a politician talk about "clarifications" alarm bells ring in
my head. It basically means changing marketing not the facts.

~~~
antninja
Yeah, we remember how the constitution, which has been rejected by
referendums, became the "simplified treaty": exactly the same text but with
articles moved, rephrased, obfuscated. The polite way to describe the EU is as
a very-indirect democracy.

~~~
crusso
And when being voted out of office is the only way that the citizenry has to
hold officials accountable... would "very-indirect" be good for the people?

------
Jacqued
We clearly need to rebuild European Institutions from the ground up.

I'm fully in favor of the European Union as a federal state but to achieve
this it is mandatory for the European institutions to stop relying on country
representatives or people who were just nominated and rely instead on elected
people (and their representatives i.e. a prime minister for the European
parliament for example), like in any proper democracy.

It is also a clear sign that despite all the efforts put out in the last few
years, associations and companies that are willing to protect Internet freedom
are not spending enough money and energy on actually doing it. Not nearly as
much as the dying copyrighted and closed content industry anyway.

~~~
LaGrange
The problem here is, that while it would increase the democracy of EU, it
would also decrease perceived sovereignty of individual countries.

A lot of progress in EU seems to be hampered by OMG NATIONAL IDENTITY,
actually, and democratization is just one of those.

~~~
ajuc
I don't understand, why having Commision that isn't elected makes EU members
more suvereign? What would change for worse, if Commision was elected like
Parliament?

~~~
paol
The commission basically represents the governments of the individual member
countries. Because it has the most power by far of all the european
institutions, this means that the governments in turn can exercise power at
the EU level in a fairly unimpeded fashion.

If the legislative power were transferred away from the commission to the
parliament (where it _should_ be, if EU governance were to follow the standard
approach for separation of powers), the individual member states would lose a
lot of control. Control they aren't _at all_ interested in relinquishing, as
you may imagine.

And that's before even considering making the executive branch (the
commission) directly elected.

~~~
mnl
In principle yes, but in practice that's not always the case. Once chosen, a
member state can't remove a commissioner, even if they're willing to. Simply
there's no way. Now they have to wait until 2014. Imagine that some political
party has (actually) appointed a commissioner because they won the national
elections, not much democratic but it's something. Next election they lose,
and the new government can't change the commissioner, where's democracy now?
If only the commissioners would be elected at the European Elections, the
whole Commission idea would make some sense.

~~~
true_religion
> Next election they lose, and the new government can't change the
> commissioner, where's democracy now?

This is standard practice in all civil service jobs, as well as the judicial
branch.

You can't just remove a judge, or a bureaucrat because his party is out of
office. Doing so, ensures that there is continuity and stability between
governments.

~~~
mnl
You're absolutely right and things should work that way. But these are in fact
political appointments yet their point is to give the member states a sense of
entitlement. Once the voters have lost their confidence in the political party
to which the commissioners belong, there's no reason for them to be there, as
they really haven't been elected by the people. Moreover, they are unlikely to
play second fiddle any longer, the temptation to stick to their own narrow
agendas is just too strong. Keep in mind that these people are professional
politicians, not technicians.

------
shahidhussain
We discussed this a little on Reddit[1] a while back, some of us fired off
emails to our local MEPs on the topic, there was a small demonstration, but
frankly we didn't make a loud enough noise to be heard.

[1]
[http://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/osobb/after_w...](http://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/osobb/after_writing_to_my_meps_about_acta_got_a_letter/http://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/osobb/after_writing_to_my_meps_about_acta_got_a_letter/)

------
sasvari
and (european) politicians wonder about people's disillusionment with politics
and lack of identification with the european union.

------
SagelyGuru
Come back Nigel Farage <http://www.nigelfaragemep.co.uk/> All is forgiven!

Watch some of his videos laying into the commissioner(s) at the EU parliament.
Quite amusing but it seems to be just what they need and deserve.

~~~
hipponax3
Do you realise that UKIP were about the only party that voted against the EU
parliament's call to have the details of the ACTA negotiations made public?

~~~
davidhollander
I'm not European but my understanding was that they literally vote no against
everything as some sort of protest?

Their statement if this is the correct vote you are referring to:

"Whilst we as a group voted against the ACTA Resolution on Wednesday 10th
March 2010, we did so on the principle that the ACTA Treaty itself should not
exist in any form. It is a catastrophic violation of individual private
property. Had we voted to support the Resolution, we would be recognising the
existence of such legislation and on that basis we decided not to recognise
the Treaty."

<http://www.ukipmeps.org/mypage_11_ExpVote.html>

------
msfd
That guy was a shame when he was a minister of foreign affairs back in
Belgium, creating multiple diplomatic incidents and controversies (with the
Netherlands - calling the prime minister a mix of harry potter and a rigid
bourgeois, the Congo, the jewish community, etc), it's no wonders he's a shame
in the EU...

------
yaix
The problem here is that the voters in the Netherlands and in France have
rejected the EU Constitutial Treaty in 2004 that would have given the EU
Parliament much more power. The "replacement" Treaty of Lisboa did not go that
far.

But anyway, this is just negotiation what the dude is doing (although not very
smart negotiation, imho). The ACTA is dead, it was rejected by a number of
country governments, and the EU parliament will probably reject it too.

Btw, the commission is elected, but not directly. It is elected by the
governments of the member countries, each representing the people of each
country. However, it would be nice to be able to vote for those guys directly.
But, because of language problems (english anybody? France? Germany?) that is
not (yet) practical.

------
mibbitier
Good news. Strengthens the case significantly for the EU to be abandoned.

~~~
Jacqued
And where would that leave us ?

Massive recession in Germany, Bankrupcy for the southern nations, a few hurt
nations (France, Italy, others) closing their borders to try to survive on
their own, and the UK surviving as a dependency of the US. With fascist
parties triumphing everywhere around (they are already doing 20%+ in a lot of
countries, there are even nazis in the Greek parliament now).

And, of course, global economy hurting like never before, since a majority of
it still happens in good ol Europe.

Yup. Let's kill the EU.

~~~
ajuc
Which are these fascist parties in Europe? Seriously, I live in Europe and
never seen any. In most EU countries propagating nazi ideology is criminal
offense.

~~~
Ygg2
Anything described as ultra-rightwing are fascist in sheep's clothing.

I know of openly fascist Golden Dawn party from Greece. And I think there are
Tricolour Flame, New Force and National Social Front in Italy.

There are also plenty of horrible evil parties with a similar agenda (but not
identifying as right-wing or fascist) growing like mushrooms all over rest of
the Europian continent.

~~~
riffraff
To be specific "fascist" stuff is outlawed in italy, though this is barely
enforced. This basically means you have fascist symbology and slogans on
posters, fliers and speech, but you don't write "fascista" in the party name.

There are a few of them, but far right parties have very little consensus
(e.g. maybe 2-3% total), protest voting seem to go in different directions.

By comparison, the hungarian far right is the third party in the parliament,
and got a whopping 16%+ in the last elections.

~~~
ajuc
In Poland it's illegal to propagate totalitarian ideology, applies to both
nazism and communism (fascism too, probably, nobody tested this).

Before EURO 2012 championships everybody interpreted it like nazism and
communism symbols are forbidden, but Russian supporters wanted to marsh before
their match with communism symbols, and some Polish minister said symbols are
OK, only propagating is illegal (probably to appease Russian politicians). And
nobody was persecuted for walking with red star/other communism symbols during
that march, AFAIK. So now it's open question what's actually allowed.

Funny thing, that some asshole Polish nationalists/hools beaten up a few
Russian supporters during that march and their excuse was that Russians had
illegal totalitarian symbols, and they were just defending law (police and
judges don't support their excuse, I imagine :) ).

------
seclorum
This is why the EU is not in fact a democracy, but a benign totalitarian
fascist state. Member states, do not, in fact, control the governing policies
being enforced on them by their masters.

~~~
apk17
And where do you think the people in the commission come from? National
governments; what happens there is simply that stuff that couldn't be made to
pass nationally gets readministered via the EU.

Besides, the EU is not a 'state'.

~~~
seclorum
Who voted for the EU President? (Nobody: He was installed by Heads of Industry
from the member states..)

>Besides, the EU is not a 'state'.

Yup, and therein lies the problem.

~~~
franzus
Who voted for the German president? Nobody.

~~~
seclorum
Does Germany's President veto stuff he doesn't like? (Nope. He can't.)

~~~
franzus
Indirectly he can. If he choses not to sign new laws.

------
gorm
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_Europ...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union)

------
digitalengineer
Brussels is starting to look like Moscow. Check out this old Russian Guy that
lived through the rise of the Sovjets talk about the striking similarities:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m41Tdl5mvdg)

------
ajuc
I wonder if we could make some big demonstration in Poland just before the
EURO 2012 semi-final matches. Or smuggle big banners to the stadium.

But they are just going to ignore it, right. No accounatability whatsoever.

------
moe
Truly the best democracy that money can buy...

When voting doesn't work, perhaps we should try a kickstarter? Groupon?

------
chris_wot
If the GFC doesn't destroy the EU, then ACTA will. How unfortunate.

------
tete
Description of EU:

Parliament: Good Commission: Bad

------
accountswu
There have been protests or at least a discussion about it in Europe; Western
Europe as well as Eastern Europe. The US has already signed it without much
problem. Surely the majority of Americans would not have wanted their
President to sign it, but now that it has been signed it would take a lot more
effort to kill it.

<http://digitaljournal.com/article/318690> Op-Ed: Obama signed ACTA in
violation of Constitution, say critics

------
mjwalshe
With my wonk hat on sounds like an MEP needs to put up a motion of "no
confidence" in this particular Commissioner.

the MEP's aprove comissioners and therefore must have the ability to censue or
remove them.

as "The Parliament may also block certain Commission decisions where there has
been a delegation of powers to the Commission and may repeal such delegation
of powers."

If a Commissioner directly states that they will ignore the will of parliment
they deserve every thing they get

------
shellox
Well, the EU is already experienced with lobby work. It shouldn't be a big
surprise for the most.

------
horsehead
Fuck the man!!

That's slang for "This guy is off his god damn rocker." People like this who
have such blatant disregard for proper procedure should be castigated into
humiliation.

