
The new MacBook Pros with T2 chips do indeed kernel panic randomly - miles
https://twitter.com/bdkjones/status/1030140659729133568
======
saudioger
IMO the 2015 Macbook Pro is one of the best laptops ever made. Don't know why
they went and messed that up.

I solidly regret the 2017 version. I've had one keyboard replacement already
(that required the logic board to be replaced, seriously). Since then, I've
already lost two keycaps. I've been ordering replacements online because they
wanted me to ship it out for repair.

My 2015 Macbook is being used daily by a friend and is still in perfect shape.
Worst thing that happened with that one is that I wore the letters off some of
the keys.

My next laptop will probably not be a mac.

~~~
skywhopper
"My next laptop will probably not be a mac."

Yeah, you aren't the only one. They are seriously throwing away all the
goodwill and reputation they'd built up over the past 20 years, over features
no one is asking for like the touch bar and a ridiculously short key throw.

~~~
w1nt3rmu4e
Have to pile on here.

I have a 2017 and use it mostly with an eternal keyboard and monitors but I am
shocked when I use the built in keyboard. It is really bad to type on -- all
for what? A few fractions of an inch in thickness?

I had a first gen MacBook 12 and was ok with the horrible keyboard given its
purpose of maximum portability. But on a desktop replacement / primary
machine? What the hell were they thinking?

On this keyboard, 50% of the time when I type a single quote I hit the return
key. Makes programming comically bad. It's just a couple of steps off typing
on a touch screen at this point. (Which, I fear, is their endgame.)

Other joys of my 2017 (15, maxed out except for the absurdly expensive second
TB of SSD):

1\. (Un)plugging external monitors will crash the window server

2\. Kernel panics -- usually related to IB in Xcode.

3\. Unresponsive power key

4\. Fingerprint reader that fails without any feedback

5\. Serious hacking required to run external monitors in HiDPI mode

6\. No more touch typing for the media keys, escape key

I'm professionally tied into the Apple ecosystem to a degree that it would be
hard for me to leave, but I'm really unhappy with Apple these days. They seem
to live in a fantasy world of unnecessary aesthetic goals and are alienating
the small but extremely vocal community that have championed their products.

~~~
willtim
It's anecdotal, but Linux on my ThinkPad gives:

\- Rock solid stability, uptimes of months (until I reboot to upgrade the
kernel). I've _never_ had a kernel panic in over a decade of use.

\- No problems with WiFi, sleep, printing or monitor hotplugging (dual wide-
screen, displayport MST).

Linux is tweaked, optimised and hardened by so many people and organisations,
it is seriously fast and robust. The various desktop GUIs available have also
matured a lot over the last ten years.

For any developer of server-side software (which likely runs on Linux), it
simply makes more sense to develop on a Linux desktop.

~~~
nullify88
I use a X1 Carbon 2015 running Fedora 28 (Since I first installed Fedora 22)

You need to give Linux distros a few months to become mature enough to run
flawlessly on newer hardware. I recall having displayport issues when I
installed Fedora 22. Aside from that case, I can't remember the last time I've
had issues.

------
huebnerob
It's long past time for the tech world to start realizing that their anecdotal
evidence is not valid. Every single tiny glitch some person with a Twitter
experiences doesn't warrant a fucking XYZgate level media blitz.

@Apple @timcook my phone's battery discharged a little fast today. WHY ARE YOU
HIDING FROM THE TRUTH ON THIS??? #draingate

In a later reply, guy cited a Apple discussion thread as his empirical proof.
Do you know what, yes, even a thirty page, forum thread is compared to Apple's
_daily_ sales? A rounding error.

~~~
kalleboo
It goes both ways. The media will blow up any tiny issue, and Apple and Mac
fanboys will dismiss even major issues.

------
natch
The comments the user typed into the Problem Report screen are not
constructive.

I think that comments field would be better used for entering any possibly
relevant information the user might be able to provide. For example: what was
the computer, or the user, doing before the point of the panic. I'm not saying
the user has a strict duty to enter information... just that it's a good idea
to add some valuable information if you can. The information doesn't need to
be perfect or complete. Apple aggregates information from different users'
reports and every bit (well most of it) helps.

Apple is engaged in a huge ongoing long project to make their stuff better and
better for their users. It's not ever going to be easy, given the ever
increasing complexity in the world. We can help, or we can cheer them on, or
we can hate on them or whine when they fail. I vote for helping when we can.

~~~
Corrado
I think the problem that most people have with Apple quality control is that
the company has quite a lot of surplus cash and they don't appear to be using
it to make their products better. If we could see that Apple recognized that a
product had fundamental design problems and used their massive resources to
correct it more people would be willing to give them a break.

Saying that "Apple is engaged in a huge ongoing long project to make their
stuff better" doesn't really comfort me much. Especially as they just recently
were dubbed the first Trillion dollar company. If some smaller systems
manufacture (i.e. System76) had a problem with one of their designs and said
that they were working to correct it, most people would give them to benefit
of the doubt and cheer them on.

The other problem in my eyes is that Apple seems to be deaf to the users of
it's product. I understand not listening to every single thing that the users
complain about (8 cores vs 16 cores, etc.) but some things are fundamental.
Things like making the MBP a desktop replacement, hence we really don't need
it to be the thinnest & lightest laptop ever. We want a whole lot of things
like a great keyboard and massive battery and if that makes the laptop thick
and heavy then so be it.

~~~
dmix
> I think the problem that most people have with Apple quality control is that
> the company has quite a lot of surplus cash and they don't appear to be
> using it to make their products better.

People always think they know how to spend other peoples money better than
they do.

------
blinkingled
Problem is not that T2 chips are causing kernel panic - that stuff happens.
Problem is that nobody wanted the touch bar and thus the T2 chip there in the
first place - another chip with its own OS running and handling the touch bar
crap nobody cares about and many are annoyed by. Apple has gotten into
NIH+Something fancy just to jack up the hype and prices too deep.

I might be mistaken - but tell me if I am - how is my X1 Carbon 6th gen
meaningfully less secure/functional than the MBP? IOW, what am I getting in
return for missing ESC, added complexity of the touch bar and significantly
higher price? AFAICT nothing if I am not bound to the OS.

~~~
boulos
While I’m also not interested in the touch bar, the T2 also handles other
security functions like disk encryption and certifying your boot. So you’d
still have the T2 even without the bar.

~~~
armadsen
Yep. As evidenced by the iMac Pro also having a T2 despite not having a touch
bar. (It also has the kernel panics that are a feature of the T2.)

------
cygned
Holding off buying a new MacBook Pro at the moment. It’s like issues pop up
every other week and I simply cannot buy a machine that is not reliable. Also
looking into a Lenovo Thinkpad w/ CentOS as an alternative, even though it
would be difficult. It’s a pity.

~~~
tbrock
Get a ThinkPad X1 Carbon 6th gen with Arch Linux or Fedora. Forget CentOS.

~~~
whytaka
Time and time again, I cannot believe people recommend a company that
installed spyware in their hardware.

I will never ever buy a Lenovo. It doesn't matter that it didn't affect the
ThinkPad line.

~~~
viraptor
Almost every larger company these days has done something bad like that.
Lenovo had superfish, HP had a keylogger, Dell had its own superfish, Acer
still installs search toolbars and browser hijackers, depending on how far
back you want to go Sony had the BMG rootkit and a camera backdoor, ... Who
are you going to get your laptop from now of you ignore all of those -
especially if you're going to reinstall your OS immediately anyway?

~~~
Bud
Almost every company? Except the one this thread is about...

~~~
viraptor
I listed other companies which did just as bad things. Why would you trust
(for example) Dell more than Lenovo in this case?

~~~
selectodude
The thread is about Apple.

------
imwally
Hmm, woke up to the same issue today. My 2018's lid was closed but the fans
were spinning near full speed. I have a firmware password set so when it
reboots it sits at the password prompt (why can't this timeout and shutdown
after a certain period of inactivity?). The crash report indicated Bridge OS
as well. This is also the second time it happened.

------
protomyth
Some of those replies scare me.

 _Your tweet says "MacBook Pros". Plural. I assume that means you have
successfully replicated this error on other machines. Right? And I assume you
did a full macOS reinstall to see if the problem went away before trumpeting
to the entire world. Right?_

Wow, just wow. I mean, when you convince some part of your customer base that
a "a full macOS reinstall" is required before you claim its an issue, well I
guess you have some loyal but misguided fans.

~~~
natch
I sort of agree that that's somewhat unreasonable to expect... but on the
other hand, a full macOS reinstall is pretty easy. You can opt to preserve
data and settings while doing it, too. Or do a clean install and restore from
backup which is unbelievably easy as well if your time machine backups are in
good shape.

~~~
protomyth
Try walking a non-technical user through it over the phone. It is not fun and
$DIETY help you if they have a problematic internet connection.

~~~
natch
Well the guy was an accomplished developer so... no need to move the
goalposts.

~~~
protomyth
I’m pretty sure the advice from the tweet would be the same regardless.

------
peterkelly
I received one of 2018 machines a couple of weeks ago. It worked for a few
hours until I tried to install the system update that fixes the CPU throttling
issue, which I assume included a firmware update for the T2 chip.

The update failed, and the machine was bricked.

Apple have removed everything that isn't controlled by T2 chip. There is no
power light on the machine or the charging cable. CPU temperature is the only
indicator of power on/off status, as I discovered after removing a very hot
machine that I thought was off from my backpack after arriving home. Despite
being non-functional, it was actually powered on but spinning the CPU and/or
T2 doing god knows what.

My replacement unit arrives tomorrow. Wish me luck.

------
floatingatoll
Did Apple refuse to hardware swap after the owner of the device performed a
fresh install of macOS to see if the issues went away and they didn’t?

Hardware defects occur. Get it replaced. If Apple refuses, _then_ make a
stink.

~~~
charlesism
He can tweet about errors, and also speak with an Apple rep. There's no
practical nor ethical reason for him to stay silent. He didn't sign an NDA
when he bought his computer.

~~~
jmull
Well, he certainly has a right to complain.

But there are good reasons, both ethically and practically, not to let your
frustrations get the better of you and rant publicly without first making
reasonable efforts to get the problem corrected in the normal way.

~~~
perl4ever
Counterpoint: complaining publicly gets you attention from a big corporation,
and as long as you don't seriously threaten the company, employees don't
derive any animus from it.

My default belief is that any large corporation is populated by fairly normal
people on average without a deep loyalty to their employer.

~~~
jphalimi
While I understand your point, I think this guy really needs a chill pill.
Give Apple some slack to fix a bug. There was, there is and there will always
be bugs in software. Just report it. If one does not fix the problem on time,
then it's fine to get angry. But overreacting like that won't help anything.

------
acangiano
This appears to be related to the issues I experienced with my MacBook Pro
2018. Namely, speakers crackling as I show in this video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3yOaLgF6yQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3yOaLgF6yQ).
Kernel panics would happen shortly after. I'm convinced T2 is to blame.

Upgrading to Mojave appears to have fixed the problem for me, but it's too
early to call as I only upgraded a few days ago.

------
gumby
Since the plural of anecdote is "data" all I can say is that my 15" hasn't
crashed at all in the 10 days I've had it.

------
firmwear
I had a to dig around a bit to figure out what "Bridge OS" is.

[https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-t2-chip-may-
be...](https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-t2-chip-may-be-causing-
imac-pro-macbook-problems/)

Apparently, it's a firmware subsystem and interface for the T2 chipset?

------
imwally
Does anyone know if you can view past crash reports? I sent the same crash
report to Apple this morning but neglected to save it. Would be interesting to
compare similar reports.

~~~
pacifika
Console log has them listed

~~~
imwally
Thanks! For anyone else interested, this specific crash report for Bridge OS
is listed under System Reports > ProxiedDevice-Bridge.

------
pertymcpert
Why is the T2 panic any worse than a normal panic? It's a bug, they happen.

And before someone says that they're only needed for the Touch Bar, a) they
chose to buy the Touch Bar version, and b) T2 and future chips will handle
much more.

~~~
jhdsrt
> Why is the T2 panic any worse than a normal panic? It's a bug, they happen.

They do happen. They shouldn't. No matter what subsystem causes the kernel
panic I don't see why you would think they are acceptable. However, a problem
with T2 is worse than other subsystems because...

> And before someone says that they're only needed for the Touch Bar, a) they
> chose to buy the Touch Bar version, and b) T2 and future chips will handle
> much more.

Exactly. T2 is supposed to work as a secure enclave, for instance (see
[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT208862)). Any bug (especially one causing a kernel crash) related to the
T2 chip is potentially a privilege escalation bug, with the potential to
enable direct (after decryption) disk access outside of os access control, or
the possibility to work around secure boot and boot non-signed kernels, or
other problems.

The T2 chip is becoming a critical part of the security infrastructure for
macs/mac os and any bug related to it should be taken very seriously.

~~~
tedunangst
How does one conclude that a kernel panic means the T2 is insecure? The kernel
trusts the T2, not the other way around.

~~~
FireBeyond
And you know that how?

~~~
pertymcpert
Because that's the architecture?

------
sehugg
I still have my 2012 MBP with the nearly-dead battery, but for daily work I'm
just using a $200 Samsung Chromebook 3 with Termux. Yes, I can't run
everything, and it's quite slow, but as a result I end up spotting performance
problems I wouldn't otherwise.

~~~
hajile
Bought a pixelbook to replace my 2015 macbook. It's been a great experience.
Crostini is great (as is having Android apps). You can now find the low-end
model for $750 everywhere these days.

A little slower, but I have fast desktop machines for when I run into those
kinds of tasks.

~~~
pier25
I'm waiting a couple more months to see what happens with Apple, but I'm
almost certain my next laptop will be a high end Chromebook. With crostini I
would have all I need.

------
kitsunesoba
Some anecdata: I’ve been using an iMac Pro which has the T2 chip (and thus,
can experience these panics) for a while now and haven’t had a single kernel
panic. In fact, I wouldn’t have even restarted this whole time if it weren’t
for updates.

Similarly, I’ve used both second and third gen touchbar MBPs and haven’t had
any problems out of them at all. They’ve both been about as reliable as my old
2015 MBP.

Not to say that others aren’t experiencing issues, but let’s not forget that
the internet can act as a magnifying glass that makes relatively
uncommon/infrequent bugs look much more widespread than they actually are.

------
roadbeats
Not just hardware, I regret every little software update I get from Apple. For
example, I can't change the password of my Macbook anymore. A simple password
change fucks up the whole system, and Google is full of people reporting this
stuff for years.

~~~
ReverseCold
Eh, at least that has a kinda good reason.

Stuff in keychain is encrypted by your password, so changing it means your
encryption password is different from your login password.

Why that doesn't change with your login is beyond me.

~~~
roadbeats
I got that, but there is no interaction about it with the user. If you change
your password from apple to banana, you will not be able to login anymore.
Both passwords won't work until you open up recovery mode and set your
password back to the old one. This is what happened in my case.

------
iamleppert
Does anyone have a good alternative to Mac? My next laptop definitely will not
be a mac, mostly I’m mad about the whole external GPU thunderbolt stuff. And
no longer willing to pay Apple’s Mac tax anymore.

~~~
secabeen
If money is no object, the soon to ship Thinkpad P1 looks pretty great.

------
ncrmro
I’ve watched my 2017 thermal throttle before it became a thing.

I type on mechanical keyboard and plug the laptop into thunderbolt 3 dock to
32” 4” monitor.

I’m ok with the limitations it is a thin client survived and work fine still
after a motercycle accident with some dings

I worked in the middle of the desert on the Pakistan borders and on trains
across India.

I have kvm baremetal hypervisor and a nas so I rdp into win 10 vm for ops and
research and have a remote docked vm that can build stuff way faster than
laptop.

VPN access so tbh you have to change your workflow, people still think you
should have a super high powered machine on you always when in realty my
laptop is always set up without switching between desktop envs and I for the
most part offload chrome and other heavy tasks to the win 10 vm

~~~
ncrmro
Who downvotes these comments how about you make an actually response.

Gave you personal anecdotes on why you might want ultra light 13” laptop with
thin keys and just a downvote.

Starting to realise the people who actually know what there talking about
don't comment to much because it's not really worth our time.

