
Disneyland with the Death Penalty - nikcub
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.04/gibson_pr.html?1
======
jrockway
Singapore is not that bad. If you stay in the touristy areas, yeah, everything
is corporate and efficient seeming. You can go from the airport to your hotel
without ever going outside. If you go to where people that live in Singapore
go, though, it's just like any other city. Okay, not as cool as Manhattan or
Tokyo or Hong Kong or London, but still pretty normal.

As for the death penalty, yeah, they have it. Singapore talks tough but it
does not feel like a police state there. When I come home to the US, I am
asked 20 questions by the immigration agents. I live here, just let me in. In
Singapore, they have "death to drug traffickers" written everywhere, but the
immigration agents did not ask me a single question. I don't even recall the
usual customs line (red lane / green lane). If you change planes in Singapore,
you don't even go through security. You are released into the secure area and
you just walk to the gate where your other flight leaves. If you want to
traffic drugs, they may have the death penalty, but they don't _really_ care.
(They say they care, and they make an example out of one in a million people,
but they don't _really_ care. Interestingly, everything is like this in
Singapore.)

Anyway, on paper, Singapore is terrible. In real life... it's not too
different from any other country.

(The US seems upset about Singapore's death penalty, but we murder a lot more
criminals than they do...)

~~~
fungi
Challenge the Lee dictatorship and comeback and tell us how little they care.

Yes they do care and yes they will execute you
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=singapore+execute+australian> even if you are not a
king pin, just some dumb kid.

Also don't get stuck there with out health cover/travel insurance or you will
regret it, its not malaysia/thailand.

~~~
ciupicri
Could you please elaborate on the health cover/travel insurance thing?

~~~
jrockway
Their doctors don't work for free. If you seriously injure yourself in
Singapore, you will have to pay money to have yourself fixed up.

This is confusing to people not from the US, apparently.

~~~
ciupicri
Do you mean that you have to pay for _emergency_ medical services like the
ones needed when you are hit by a car or you have appendicitis?

------
lionhearted
I'm a fan of Gibson, but this isn't really an accurate description of
Singapore. Singapore's overwhelmingly the most functional and prosperous place
in Southeast Asia, by any metric or measure. People who love politics don't
like Singapore, because Singaporean politics are boring. One group is in
charge, they do a pretty good job, and everyone likes them. But outside of
politics and drugs, you can do pretty much whatever you want in Singapore,
you're really safe, and the culture's as vibrant as anywhere else. There's a
nice mix of Chinese, Malay, Thai, Indian, American, Japanese, and other kinds
of experiences to be had in music, food, clothing, and basically whatever
else. Good art, technology, commerce, inventing, education.

After traveling a lot around the region, I can't wrap my mind around articles
like these. The second most functional country in SE Asia is Thailand, and
it's _way_ more dangerous and less functional than Singapore. Where else?
Vietnam? Cambodia? Malaysia? Laos?

I've been to all those places except Laos, and Singapore is nicer in pretty
much every way. Don't let the article turn you off from visiting if you get a
chance. It's a nice country, with friendly people, and plenty of things to do.
If you went, you'd probably enjoy it.

~~~
brown9-2
To be fair, the article is 17 years old.

~~~
hugh3
Has Singapore changed much in the last seventeen years? I get the feeling that
it hasn't (though my one and only visit to Singapore would have been circa
1998).

------
nikcub
I got to know Singapore really well last year while we were working on the
Crunchpad there. It is a great place to start a company.

A lot of this article is outdated, but it is infamous. Singapore is still an
autocratic regime, but steadily becoming more progressive. For instance, local
bloggers used to be tailed/monitored and harassed, while today they are
invited to official government events and given blogger passes (like a press
pass) to cover events on behalf of the citizenry.

The city/country is very surreal, especially once you begin to dig under the
surface.

I have a blog post about it that has been sitting in my drafts for over a year
now with a bunch of observations (I met a lot of entrepreneurs, businesses,
the government people etc.). I have a lot of interesting stories about
Singapore. Reading about Singapore again today has prompted me to dig it up -
I will publish it this weekend.

I love that place so much that I would seriously consider opening an office
there, or at least hiring some people there, for my next startup. It is
definitely the most 'Silicon Valley' like city in this hemisphere.

If anybody on HN needs some tips or intros re: Singapore, feel free to email
me.

------
mmaro
This is a famous article from _1993_ , notable enough to have its own
Wikipedia entry:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Penal...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Penalty)

What I find interesting is that this piece doesn't include the words "crime"
or "murder". There are what, one or two (solved) murders per year on an island
of 5 million people? Freedom includes bad things not happening to you.

Other freedoms you can enjoy (as far as I know): not having to drive anywhere,
being able to hire whoever you want [1]

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1307133>

~~~
pyre

      > Freedom includes bad things not happening to you.
    

Huh? So you're not really 'free' unless your government can guarantee that
nothing bad will ever happen to you?

~~~
mmaro
It's not possible to guarantee that nothing bad will ever happen to someone.
But I am definitely more free if the government actually prevents
(ex-?)criminals from harming me. A sovereign is responsible when criminals
harm people; they have the ability to institute high- and low-tech measures to
vastly reduce crime. The government I'm familiar with (USG) does very little,
because of structural problems.

------
maxklein
My company is setup in singapore. Everything in singapore can be done online.
You can log into every government service using the net. Which is all very
convenient.

I think what westernerners misunderstand about singapore is exemplified by the
"press button for green man" sign:
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/greta325/4906069350/>

Singapore has a lot of people from cultures that don't pay attention to
cleanliness and orderliness. So they have very clear and obvious signs and
rules as well as punishments, so that people will conform. Westerners were
already brought up in such cultures, they don't need to be shown so
explicitly.

Also, Singapore has a lot of seedy stuff going on. They let in thai girls who
act as hostesses on 6 month working visas to work in singapore as hostesses,
for example. Singapore has organized seediness.

And if you talk to the people in singapore, almost everyone is perfectly
satisfied with what the government is doing. It has made a very high standard
of living and one of the best countries in south east asia. Why would they not
be satisfied?

------
kirvyteo
It is an old and famous article and there are some interesting facts about the
article you should know. You would think that the person charged, "Monetary
Authority of Singapore official Shanmugaratnam Tharman", would be facing the
death penalty or exiled, but sorry to disappoint you, he is now a Minister for
Finance, and with considerable clout.

Anyway, I live here and the article sounds exaggerated and over dramatized,
and at the end, I felt it was really humorous. People changed, places changed,
rules changed. A well written article doesn't make it real nor the well
rehearsed words of a politician. So to say "The author hits it spot on about
Singapore", is really bewildering.

I always like to compare the drugs laws here with the gun laws (or lack of) in
US. If you care about effectiveness or deaths, which one has ended up with
more deaths as a result of the laws based on per capita?

(For the skeptics, oh yeah, you are right, the lee dictatorship is forcing me
to write this. Ok I am ready to be downvoted.)

------
samdk
This is fascinating. And terrifying. I can't imagine living in an environment
like this. I'd be extremely interested to know what (if anything) has changed
since 1993 when this when was written.

(Speaking of which, a (1993) in the title might be nice, since there's no date
on the print version. The original is here:
<http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.04/gibson.html>)

------
iantimothy
I am a Singaporean, born and raised here. Just starting out on my own after 4
plus years of enterprise work.

The one book which my secondary school teacher recommended and put how
Singapore has developed into perspective is 'The Prince'. Although I would say
my country is making some of the mistakes the book warned about.

With regards to freedom of speech, Singapore operates based on the principle
of OB markers. Many factors have contributed to the existence of these
markers, such as the turbulent times that occurred when the countries around
the region were gaining independence, the demographics of the surrounding
countries ...

Freedom of speech is great when each of us have the wisdom to know when to
exercise it or the consequences of a misplaced whisper or misguided rant may
not be catastrophic. The fear of certain things being said is from the fear of
what the unforeseen consequences might be.

If anyone has questions about Singapore, or interested in starting out here,
do contact me.

~~~
sgpatriot
__Throwaway account __

I'm a born and raised Singaporean as well, as well as a member of an
opposition party in Singapore.

Its true that while Singapore has draconian laws like the death penalty, or
the Internal Security Act (equivalent of the Patriot Act which allows
detention without trial) or even the Public Order Act[1], which allows police
to charge a citizen for unlawful assembly even if he's just one person with a
sign, one can live life pretty peacefully without any worries like any decent
citizen in any other developed country.

But that's only if you're not involved in politics that opposes the current
ruling party, the People's Action Party.

There is a great double standard in the lands when it comes to the things
opposition parties can do and civil society.

For one, when CASE (Consumers Association of Singapore) held its May 1st
'protest', it was not hassled or stopped by the police.

But when another opposition party goes on to do the same, its activists were
convicted and faces a fine ranging from $900 to $1,000 and six or seven days
of imprisonment in default.[2]

On the other hand, things are slowly being improved, but opposition leaders
still face a problem getting their views heard to the mass media (media is
state-owned). Contrary to popular belief, political victory is still
determined on the grassroots level which consists of mom and pops, uncles and
aunties who do not know how to search or read alternative political news
online.

The state-media are renown to be able to shape public opinion as well as
discarding letters from the public or opposition leaders from being
published[3].

If there's anyone who has any questions about being a member of an opposition
party in Singapore, I'd be glad to share my input from the other side of the
fence.

P/S: I am not affiliated with the Singapore Democratic Party.

[1]
[http://www.mha.gov.sg/news_details.aspx?nid=MTM5OQ%3D%3D-3Bt...](http://www.mha.gov.sg/news_details.aspx?nid=MTM5OQ%3D%3D-3BtUG%2B2xe3A%3D)

[2]
[http://www.yoursdp.org/index.php/news/singapore/4264-singapo...](http://www.yoursdp.org/index.php/news/singapore/4264-singapore-
logic-okay-on-1-may-not-okay-9-aug)

[3] [http://www.temasekreview.com/2010/10/22/singapores-press-
fre...](http://www.temasekreview.com/2010/10/22/singapores-press-freedom-
drops-to-a-new-low/)

------
jasonjei
The author hits it spot on about Singapore. It would probably have more in
common with Apple than IBM--efficiently run, capitalist (to an extent), but is
more or less a one-party system, as is common in East Asia (with the exception
of Australia).

Singapore is perhaps the best example of the so-called Apple 1984-ad state of
information purity directives. OK, maybe that is an exaggeration. It is more
likely the result of Asian/Confucian culture that views the State as an entity
that must not be disagreed with. And like Apple, the standards are very
controlled, and those found in violation with its policies are to be
eliminated. [1] Like Apple, if you use the product--or the system, in
Singapore--as intended, you'll find it very pleasant and easy to use. Try to
do something not allowed, and you'll find very little tolerance for it and
very little sympathy too.

A lot of Westerners find it bewildering that none of these people will fight
for their rights and will let the state erode on their freedoms. That is
because it is a result of Confucian influence that has taught them
specifically to never be a thorn in the side to anyone: groupthink mentality.
So you see that Singapore's codified laws have more in common with the first
codes of history or UCMJ than the forgiving laws of the West. Speech is viewed
as a privilege in almost all East Asian countries, and those found in abuse
will be punished severely and swiftly, and if there are no laws that will
allow them to do so, they will be ostracized.

Hong Kong is probably as close as you can get to a free economic state as far
as East Asian regions go [2]. It's ironic--I know--that a Chinese region has a
relatively free system. But Hong Kong's laws are some of the best in the world
--based on Common law framework, right to trial by jury, freedom of speech
until 2040. Private banks are authorized to print money/bank notes (HSBC,
Standard Chartered, Hang Seng, Bank of China), and the government keeps taxes
low (no sales tax and income capped at 15%, 10% if you're in medicine or
education). There are no tariffs or excise, and the government sustains public
services by hiring and paying good salaries of competent public officials.
Hell, their Chief Executive wears a bow tie and his website is
<http://www.CEO.gov.hk>

In fact, I was surprised that all phones in Hong Kong are sold unlocked
because government regulations require freedom of phone service. Which is
where I bought my iPhone. (And it should come as no surprise that Singapore
sells them locked.)

A lot of people think Hong Kong has been ruined by China, but so far, it
reminds me a lot of what a startup country with rights would entail; I would
venture to say that it is poster child of libertarianism. It is more
capitalist than the States (subway and rail systems are privatized), yet
provides excellent government benefits (the government makes money by selling
land at market value and hiring good salespeople to do it). There is still no
death penalty in Hong Kong, and the judicial system is one of the most
balanced in the world, with judges that have remained since even during
British rule (you are not required to be a Hong Konger to sit as a judge).
Hong Kong isn't as clean as Singapore, but it's certainly friendlier to do
business. (many Western businesses will not sign agreements with Chinese
companies on the Mainland because of its legal framework; China Mobile, for
instance, has its corporate headquarters in Hong Kong for this reason). You
can't be put in jail just because you write something the government doesn't
like. And a whiff of cannabis won't kill you either.

Singapore is similar, except they are probably closer to the Chinese in their
ideaology. A lot of people ask me what I think a free China would look like. I
said possibly very similar to Singapore, and the truth is, there is a lot in
common with China. Taiwan, the so-called Republic of China or "free China,"
was a military dictatorship (complete with summary trials/executions) until
1993.

[1] You can see that this sustained China through 5,000 years of tyranny since
Confucius was well-liked by Chinese kings since he sold brain-washing as a
philosophy; that all must respect the parents, the state, and the teacher,
because if you do all three, you'll respect me, the king.

[2] Edited for grammar and clarified that Hong Kong is the top ranking free
economic system. The laws which are friendly to civil rights (including no
death penalty which is still on the books in Japan, freedom of speech), fair
application of the law, make it economically very free. However, 1/3 of the
government is controlled by the Mainland, and the 2/3rds by corporate
interests and the people. [http://asiancorrespondent.com/hong-kong-
blog/freest-econonom...](http://asiancorrespondent.com/hong-kong-blog/freest-
econonomy-rankings-2010)

~~~
rottencupcakes
> _In fact, I was surprised that all phones in Hong Kong are sold unlocked
> because government regulations require freedom of phone service. Which is
> where I bought my iPhone. (and it should come as no surprise that Singapore
> sells them locked.) I would venture to say that [Hong Kong] is poster child
> of libertarianism_

To clear up a common misconception I see (and I have no understanding of where
this misunderstanding comes from), 'net neutrality' and everything of that ilk
(including regulated phone unlocking) is NOT libertarian. It is the exact
opposite.

~~~
_delirium
I wouldn't say it's the exact opposite, though it's not libertarian. It does
fit into a Hayekian view that government intervention is justified to promote
free markets and competition. That's not quite libertarianism, but Hayek fans
are often found near libertarian circles.

It seems to be somewhat an ends/means disagreement. Many branches of
libertarianism argue that government interference with private contracts is
inherently wrong. Other pro-capitalist views (Hayek among them), though, focus
more on the outcomes, arguing that capitalism is good because competitive
markets with decentralized decision-making mediated by price signals produce
the best outcomes for humanity. Those holding the latter view don't have as
blanket an opposition to all kinds of regulation, but would allow some kinds
of regulation that are narrowly tailored towards promoting competitive
markets. Adam Smith is probably the earliest precursor of that view; for
example, he opposed most regulation, but supported requiring employers to pay
wages in silver, because he thought on balance, prohibiting employers from
paying their employees in IOUs promoted a functioning market economy, so the
interference with the employer's absolute freedom to negotiate payment methods
with their employees was justified. Hayek outlined a number of kinds of
intervention he felt justified as well.

~~~
rottencupcakes
I mean, the disagreement certainly isn't over if certain government
interventions can improve market efficiency, since they certainly can. But I
disagree that the disagreement is really as principled as you say, over if the
ends justify the means. The disagreement is most likely over if you can
somehow give a government body a few powers (like those Hayek outlines)
without ending up with something like we have now.

Great post.

------
harnhua
(Disclaimer: I was born in Singapore, educated in the US and lived in the SF
bay area for a while. Among other things, the overseas experience made me
question a lot of things about Singapore and the US)

I beg to differ with the article and wonder if I'm a product of the system as
the author described or that maybe he just hasn't lived long enough in
Singapore. A lot of the content is outdated, in my opinion.

May I respectfully give a personal perspective on some remarks that I feel are
rather over-the-top. Please let me know if you agree/disagree:

> A lot of people ask me what I think a free China would look like. I said
> possibly very similar to Singapore, and the truth is, there is a lot in
> common with China.

To be frank, I think that could not be further from the truth. As a
Singaporean Chinese, I find my way of thinking very different from that of
friends and even relatives from mainland China. It has been reported that Deng
Xiaoping and other senior members of the Chinese government looked to
Singapore for ideas on economic, social and political reform back then, but I
think how policies were eventually implemented were very different.

> Don't forget to remember the simple guideline that epitomizes Singapore's
> reaction to lawbreaking on the back of the disembarkation card on the plane
> in bold, all-caps red letters: "Welcome to Singapore. Death to drug
> traffickers under Singapore law."

Like what someone else said, on paper, Singapore looks horrible but in
reality, it's just like any other country. I chew gum on the streets, I could
leave trash outside of bins if I wanted to, sometimes I forget to flush after
using a public restroom... (silly examples but tongue firmly in cheek) all
without penalty.

On one hand, some laws like the penalties for drug-trafficking seem draconian
by comparison. On the other, I wonder if it is because of these strict laws
that one is able to wander around alone almost anywhere at night without fear.
Or simply, if you don't want to be arrested, don't bring illegal drugs into
the country...

> Also don't get stuck there with out health cover/travel insurance or you
> will regret it, its not malaysia/thailand.

You're right that on average Malaysia/Thailand heathcare costs are probably
cheaper. Currently I have no health insurance and pay less than US$30 every
time I go into a public health clinic for a cold, an annual physical or a
dental checkup. A lot of people from the region actually come to Singapore for
good, reliable health-care, leading to a medical tourism boom in recent
decades.

> Challenge the Lee dictatorship and comeback and tell us how little they
> care.

Well, I question government policies openly in public, and so far, I haven't
found myself behind bars. Maybe I'm just not important enough ;)

Speaking about the government... I wish for more transparency on how the
government invests money from its sovereign funds(i.e. taxpayers' money). I
hope silly election tactics like redrawing of electoral boundaries won't be
used anymore, etc.

But I do want the efficient, corruption-free(at certain levels, it still helps
if one has the right connections though) bureaucratic processes to continue to
flourish.

As a startup founder, I found it a breeze to get incorporated(2 days), rent an
office and complete the administrative-type tasks. However, innovation
certainly seems to be a problem. The jump from years of mainly being
indoctrinated with "trust the government to do the right thing", "study hard
and be a good worker" to "come up with your own ideas!", "be unique!"(which
ironically, is being promoted by the government!) will take some time, I
guess.

Government-supported investment funds may abound, but I get the impression
that those guys are terribly risk-averse and want to back certain winners.

> Singapore Airlines is notorious for discriminating age, sex, and lookgs for
> its flight attendants.

I'm not a fan of Singapore Airlines, but one is certainly free to sue them for
discriminatory practices.

Pardon my long, at times sarcastic response. I guess I get somewhat annoyed
when binary statements are repeatedly made based on things that I think have
obvious shades of gray.

Anyway, come to Singapore and let's have coffee sometime; I'd love to meet up
with fellow HNers and chat about this funny island country of mine!

~~~
nhebb
> Singapore Airlines is notorious for discriminating age, sex, and looks for
> its flight attendants.

That's kind of funny considering the opening of the article was written from
the perspective of Hollywood, which isn't exactly known to foster the careers
of talented but less attractive actresses, let alone ones past their 30's.

------
mukyu
I found this to be very interesting but at the same time nearly impossible to
read. It might have something to do with the average number of commas per
sentence being around 5.

------
gaiusparx
Singapore is no longer a Disneyland as there are now two casinos, one is by
Sands.

------
fnazeeri
Funny thing is that Disneyland _does_ have a death penalty...last time I
checked...

