
Chinese clone of StackOverflow. Uses even the same design, built using django. - scorpion032
http://www.cnprog.com/
======
jhancock
StackOverflow could never have served the China market like this project can.

i18n is a technical issue. It cannot solve the issue of "community". There
needed to be a Chinese StackOverflow (not a language-translated UI for the
same site), and now there is.

If your server isn't in China, it may as well not exist. You heard me right.
If you want a regular user base interacting with your app in China, you must
have a server in a data center in China. To run such a server in China, you
must have an ICP (Internet Content Provider) license. These licenses can only
be held by a Chinese national. If you are running a U.S. or EU based SaaS and
do not understand this and do not partner with someone in China that can run
your Chinese version of your service, you may eventually get copied. Its not
about right or wrong. Its a matter of access for your users.

There is nothing devious about this Chinese "StackOverflow". Its clearly a
copy and the writers open sourced it. I have seen devious. This isn't it.

Congrats again!!! This is a great step forward for the China programmer
community.

...and congrats to StackOverflow for making something worth copying.

~~~
patcito
So where is the source?

~~~
jhancock
<http://code.google.com/p/cnprog/>

the license is <http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0>

~~~
patcito
Thanks.

------
sjs382
I saw someone complaining about this the other day. Not sure if your
intentions are the same...

StackOverflow is CC-SA 2.5 licensed. The "derivative" site is also CC-SA 2.5
licensed. They both have clearly different audiences. I don't see a problem.

~~~
sjs382
I should also note that I didn't notice any attribution on the site, as
required by CC-SA 2.5. I don't speak the language though, so I can't be sure.

~~~
catz
In the right bottom corner there is a CC-wiki logo with link to
creativecommons.org

~~~
sjs382
Which fulfills the "Share Alike" portion, but not the "Attribution" portion...

~~~
jhancock
<http://code.google.com/p/cnprog/> shows attribution. Maybe the boys at
StackOverflow will need to talk to the writer of this new project to firm up
details on how and where he shows such attributions.

~~~
sjs382
You think that's adequate? Personally I don't, but it's not an issue I care
enough to argue. It was just an observation.

~~~
jhancock
What I have seen so far:

* 4 prominent attributions: SO attributions on his blog, the google code main page, CC license on the new production site, and in the code itself!!!

* apache open source license

Maybe he is not in full compliance yet, but this is one hell of a good start
and demonstrates good faith.

~~~
sjs382
I agree that the project is done in good faith and is a completely worthwhile
project. See my original comment that started this thread.

I think the proper way of attribution would be a link (or message) in the
footer or, at the very least, on the about page. Maybe I'm being pedantic, but
if I need to search for the attribution by going to the developers blog or
viewing the source code, I don't think that's enough.

This is beside the point, because I agree that the other forms /are/
attribution, but I don't consider the creative commons link a form of
attribution at all.

------
sho
Who cares? "Steal what you love", right? They obviously couldn't use the
English speaking site, and I doubt the real Stack Overflow has any plans to
expand into the Chinese market.

I wouldn't be proud doing such a thing myself, but if such a site will help
our Chinese friends learn to program better, good luck to it IMO.

~~~
carbon8
The language argument is a red herring that appeals to an outdated, pre-
communications revolution worldview and tries to ignore the central issue
here.

Language support has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this situation.
If someone produces something based on a concept already in the wild, it's OK
no matter what the language situation is. But if someone outright clones a
site's design, it's a dirty move no matter what the language situation is. In
its worst forms it's fraudulent and deceptive, in its most innocent form it's
confusing to users.

~~~
jhancock
I do not think this new site is fraudulent or confusing to its users. I'm sure
the vast majority of Chinese users will know this new site is a clone of
StackOverflow.

Here's your litmus test:

If both sites exist and users in China overwhelmingly chose the new China
based one, doesn't it prove that this new site is providing something that the
original did not or could not provide?

~~~
carbon8
So if I clone your ShellShadow software, design everything to look as
identical as possible and the market overwhelmingly chooses my clone, that's
OK with you? Somehow I doubt it.

~~~
jhancock
Its not a matter of "that's ok with me". There are many variables to success.
If someone else's "Collaborative Shell Client" takes off and mine doesn't, or
takes off in a market I haven't or couldn't service well, and I was on the
internet first, I need to review many other variables besides just product
design.

~~~
carbon8
_If someone else's "Collaborative Shell Client" takes off and mine doesn't..._

There's a massive difference between a competitor and a clone.

~~~
jhancock
ahhh...but you see the "software" as 100% of the product. There is so much
more to it..especially in the case of community content sites.

In this case, they didn't copy the software. They rewrote it from the ground
up with different tools. They did copy almost 100% the look and feel. But that
is not 100% of the "product"...far from it.

~~~
carbon8
You clearly have missed everything since it's exactly the opposite. The
internal software architecture is not the issue here, the cloned result
presented to users/customers is.

~~~
jhancock
and StackOverflow was unabashedly a derivative of Digg or Reddit. The creators
have said so themselves.

How closely to a pre-existing design or market space does a product need to be
before it offends you? Do you have a methodology to measure this?

How much time have you spent trying to woo venture capital? In my experience,
one of the first questions I get hit with is "is there anyone else doing
something similar?" If the answer is no, this is a red flag.

A typical and expected elevator pitch is "its like X but for Y". Hybridization
is the game here. It is common and quite acceptable to say "its like X but for
China".

The creator of this new product did change something...something critical...
"its like StackOverflow but for China".

~~~
carbon8
_and StackOverflow was unabashedly a derivative of Digg or Reddit._

"Derivative", not clone.

~~~
jhancock
its all "derivative". You simply have a definition of "clone" which I do not
share.

------
sho
I note that the "beta2" branch of this _Open Source, Apache Licensed Project_
lists a "new theme" as a change.

<http://code.google.com/p/cnprog/source/list>

------
scorpion032
And yea, <a href="[http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-
CN&...](http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-
CN&u=http://www.cnprog.com/&ei=LCLPSeGrAsrqnQf7xsnXCQ&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DCNProg.com%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dcom.ubuntu:en-
US:unofficial%26hs%3Drgp) is the translated version</a>

~~~
jwilliams
Someone asks about stack overflow here:
[http://66.102.11.132/translate_c?hl=en&sl=zh-
CN&u=ht...](http://66.102.11.132/translate_c?hl=en&sl=zh-
CN&u=http://www.cnprog.com/questions/59/%25E8%25AF%25B7%25E9%2597%25AEcnprog%25E8%25B7%259Fstackoverflow%25E7%259A%2584%25E5%2585%25B3%25E7%25B3%25BB%25E6%2598%25AF%25E4%25BB%2580%25E4%25B9%2588%25EF%25BC%259F&prev=/search%3Fq%3DCNProg.com%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dcom.ubuntu:en-
US:unofficial%26hs%3Drgp&usg=ALkJrhiLIrQ8JAa7Zr959gnp47O0AleSzw)

------
jcapote
Probably built in 1/4 the time...

~~~
iamelgringo
For 1/10th the price.

~~~
Dilpil
With 1/1000th the security, stability, and maintainability.

~~~
neodude
and 100x the market?

~~~
beta
I doubt it.

------
barredo
though I do not see any licenses problem with that CC-SA License in both
StackOverflow and CNprog I do see an ethics problem in the CNProg staff using
an exact copy.

Isn't there ANY thing to improve in StackOverflow? It's a perfect design for
everything? Couldn't the Chinese webmasters made a few changes they thought
will improve the site? Even the colours? Even the size of the fonts?

It's all China can do? Copy western things, making them cheaper due to their
lower salaries compared with Western salaries?

Because it's what it seems to be.

~~~
sho
_"I do see an ethics problem"_

An ethics problem with cloning a site and releasing it as open source? Under
an Apache license no less?

<http://code.google.com/p/cnprog/source/browse/#svn/trunk>

Not only do I not have an "ethics" problem with that, I think it's a _good_
thing.

 _"Isn't there ANY thing to improve in StackOverflow? "_

Well, they "improved" the logo! Seriously though, it's probably a single guy.
He probably can't afford a designer, hell it's probably a hobby site. He
probably, like me, absolutely loathes writing CSS and so just copied the whole
thing. I don't see what the big deal is; you see things like blog themes
cloned/ported all the time.

And he _did_ do a lot of work - he rewrote the whole thing in Django and
released it open source! Isn't that something? Compared to the effort involved
in writing the back end, the font sizes are not a big deal.

 _"It's all China can do? Copy western things, making them cheaper due to
their lower salaries compared with Western salaries?"_

Now this borders on offensive. China is not some giant hive mind, acting as a
whole in pursuit of a grand shared vision. It's a nation of individuals just
like the USA - if anything it's even more diverse. You don't even know if the
owner of this site is _in_ China. Regardless, shame on you for lumping "them"
all together like that.

Anyway, developing countries have a long and glorious tradition of shamelessly
stealing the intellectual work of their more established contemporaries,
including America, back in the day. 40 years ago it was Japan stealing from
the USA. Now Americans copy their cultural styles all the time. And let's not
forget where that grand American company, Disney, filched all its fairytale
ideas from. What do you think the Germans thought when Disney copied
practically every Grimm brothers story ever written, making billions, and now
dares to protect and market its "trademarks"? Doesn't seem so bad when it's
your side doing it, does it? But the german newspapers of the time said
exactly what you just said about China - all the _Amerikaner_ can do is copy
and hide behind convenient legal fictions.

Pull back and take the larger perspective. Stack Overflow is a good thing,
right? Well, now it's open source, with a Chinese version online. It's still a
good thing.

And the Chinese programmer who takes your outsourced job will be that much
more knowledgeable a programmer because of it ; )

(edited to emphasise & link to the open source code for the site)

~~~
barredo
1 _China is not some giant hive mind_

You are right there and I was wrong and too simplistic.

2 _Stack Overflow is a good thing, right? Well, now it's open source, with a
Chinese version online._

I haven't notice that. I just browse the site. And yes, it's a great thing, I
agree with you.

-

Also, why, then, there is no mention to StackOverflow at all on CNProg.com? A
bit of acknowledgement will be fine, even if it's an Open Source thing.

Disclaimer: I'm not American (I'm from Spain), I'm not a programmer and do not
have any problems with outsourcing at all

~~~
sho
_"Also, why, then, there is no mention to StackOverflow at all on
CNProg.com?"_

<http://blog.cnprog.com/2009/01/why-create-cnprog/>

My chinese is pretty rusty, but in the 3rd section on that page it links to
stack overflow and says something like, "Stack Overflow was just released from
beta, and it's really great, but slow with localisation" as a reason why this
site was created.

Sorry for assuming you were American. I should have guessed from the name! Now
it's me making incorrect assumptions : /

~~~
barredo
Don't worry, I enjoy this kind of threads :-) I will contact the programmers
of SO and offer my help to translate CNProg to other languages now I know it's
an Open Source initiative.

------
lanceusa
Here is the Chinese equivalent to Twitter: <http://fanfou.com>

------
igorgue
guys... if you were hackers... you'd be getting the source and studying it not
complaining about the ethics or ability to monetize or how much time or money
they spend on it.

