

Google kicks GrooveShark out of the Android Market  - charlief
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/04/google-kicks-grooveshark-out-of-the-android-market.ars

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jmtame
The Groovesharkers are a fascinating group of folks =]

"At no point in Grooveshark's history did I ever believe Grooveshark was going
to fail. The same goes for Sam. Grooveshark is more than our product and
Grooveshark is more than our ideas. Grooveshark is the group of people that we
have in the company. If tomorrow, every record label and every large
technology company all partnered up and launched a service that they've
secretly been developing for ten years, that is Grooveshark but a thousand
times better, and for whatever reason we couldn't compete with it, we would
turn on a dime. We'd have a meeting tomorrow and we would both come in
together and we’d say, 'okay, the bad news is this business model isn't
sustainable. The good news is we're all still here, so what are we doing now?'
and that would really be it."

Another one that sticks with me:

"Often, when we'd go pitch a potential investor, they'd offer us a bottle of
water or something, and we'd always accept the water and then use it as a prop
because when we'd say 'yeah, we want to compete with piracy' we would always
get laughed at and told 'okay, well it's impossible to compete with piracy,
everybody has tried this, you can't compete with free.' That comment always
opened the door for us, we'd say, 'Well, what about this bottle of water right
here, did you pay for it? Why did you pay for it? You can turn on a tap and
get it free', and I really love that example, because value is a funny thing.

Value is really in the eyes of the beholder, it comes down to whether or not
someone is willing to pay. There are a lot of reasons why someone would be
willing to pay. In the case of water, it's not because they can't get it for
free, it's because there's the convenience, there's the packaging, there's the
perceived quality, and any of those 'reasons' could be applied to traditional
music. So, even if CD sales are tanking and now downloads are plateauing, that
doesn't mean that there isn't money in music. When I think of all of the
friends I have who haven't bought a DVD in years and they pirate their movies
all the time, those same people are the ones that, every single Friday night,
will spend $10 or more on a movie ticket to see it once but they won't spend
$5 to own a copy forever." - Josh Greenberg, Grooveshark CTO/Cofounder

Also relevant, an explanation from Josh on the legality of Grooveshark:

"First off, I’m not a lawyer -- but I'll do my best to speak on this subject.
Essentially the main governing law is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act
(DMCA), which is very long and very complicated. But there are a few parts of
DMCA that, in particular, govern over services like Grooveshark, Myspace,
Google, YouTube, eBay, Craigslist, Facebook, any place where users are posting
content or sharing information in certain ways. Prior to this law going into
effect, there was a paralyzing amount of ambiguity regarding the rights and
responsibilities of consumers, service providers, and content owners. There
were no defined parameters for services to operate under.

The way that the DMCA arbitrates everything is basically by saying that
_content owners have a right to their content at the end of the day_. So, if a
content owner points to a specific piece of content on a service and contacts
the service provider using specific parameters, then the service provider has
to take that content down.

There's also a lot more to it, including obligation for service providers to
notify infringing users and to ban repeat infringers. I think what everything
boils down to, is that the law recognizes that in a community of millions and
millions of users, some will end up breaking the rules, but at the same time,
content owners always have a right to point to their content to have it
quickly removed; service providers have protection from what their users are
doing as long as they comply with certain responsibilities toward content
providers; and users have an obligation not to pirate or upload infringing
content."

~~~
physcab
I've been at Grooveshark for a while. While I'm not going to comment on this
story, I will say this: every single employee (now about 70) has sacrificed
immensely for the success of this company since its start. It's pretty clear
to everyone who works at Grooveshark that they don't do it for the money. They
show up everyday because they have fun working with a great team, an awesome
product, and the hope that one day this industry will be changed for the
better. We've gone through a lot- lawsuits, employment without payment, app
store removals, people saying crazy shit ("a legal jihad"??), competitors
sprouting up every day etc. I'm sure this won't be the last either. But what
keeps us going is hearing just how many people NEED us from my little sister
who sends me her iPhone every month so we can put a dev build on it when her
certificate expires, to the numerous artists we meet at music festivals both
large and small who need a better way to distribute their music and get heard.

~~~
redthrowaway
Let me just say I love your program and use it daily, but...

I recently just let the trial period on the mobile version (ios jb) lapse
without buying a subscription. While I love the idea, and I love the app
itself, the music quality simply isn't there. Now, I know the bandwidth
limitations that come with 3g, and I know the quality is as high as you can
get it, but it's just not good enough. Which makes me think that you guys
might be peaking too soon. I can't see you making money off free web users
with your (thankfully) unobtrusive ads, I don't see any real reason to pay to
use the web version, and I don't see mobile infrastructure being fast enough
to support you there, where it seems your real prime usage case is.

Even if Google and Apple weren't booting you off their platform, how would you
survive long enough that you could deliver the same quality music through my
phone that I already _have_ on my phone?

~~~
britta
A different experience - I recently tried out Grooveshark on my jailbroken
iPhone, and I liked it. The interface is nice and clever, the music quality
was fine (I was listening over WiFi though), the radio-style recommendations
were decent. I'm just not a big enough music consumer to sign up for the
$9/month service; I'm usually happy with my existing music library and if I
want to listen to a couple new things I often just use YouTube on my computer.
I'd recommend it to friends who wanted a subscription service though.

~~~
redthrowaway
Thing is, if I have wifi, there's no need for a mobile app. I almost always
have my laptop on me, and am more than content to listen with that.
Grooveshark mobile makes the promise of any music, anywhere, any time. That's
awesome, and is the one thing I could see paying an admittedly steep
subscription for. It just didn't deliver well enough for me.

------
Kylekramer
While probably the right move (no need to take responsibility for an app that
is going to anger labels when your platform allows sideload), it is funny to
see Google kicking out a company that is following the YouTube playbook word
for word.

~~~
ffumarola
"following the YouTube playbook word for word"

Exactly, I guess they don't want to get in the middle of it. The disadvantages
of building on someone else's platform, I suppose.

~~~
jokermatt999
It's less of a risk here though, because as pointed out elsewhere in the
thread, it's still easily available through
<http://mobile.grooveshark.com/android>. The loss of discoverability from
being on the Market sucks, but the publicity from being removed reminded me to
install it at least.

Overall though, I think the ability to have your users install your app even
if you get kicked off of the market is a fundamental advantage that Android
has. It's going to be a detriment if you're a paid app, but if you're ad-
supported, being kicked off the Market is not nearly as big of an issue. You
just need to solve the publicity/discoverability issue.

~~~
ffumarola
Not all Android devices allow side loading, to my knowledge. So it doesn't
seem to be an inherent advantage of Android. After all, you CAN jail break
your iPhone.

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acconrad
The important thing to note is that it will still be available, just not
through direct app store channels: <http://mobile.grooveshark.com/android>

------
Indyan
Grooveshark's response: [http://techie-buzz.com/tech-news/grooveshark-
responds-google...](http://techie-buzz.com/tech-news/grooveshark-responds-
google-android-market-ban.html)

"We were surprised by Google’s removal of the Grooveshark App from the Android
Market Place, and are still unclear as to what policies have now been
violated. We have always had a positive relationship with Google as evidenced
by the Grooveshark App’s active and featured presence in the Android
Marketplace for the past one and a half years.

We respect copyright law and the rights of content owners, generating positive
results and revenues for the artists and labels that we have agreements with.
Regarding the content for which we do not have agreements in place yet, we
abide by, and pay royalties, according to the rules outlined in the DMCA, the
same legal act that governs Google and YouTube’s activities.

We are eagerly looking to enter into agreements with all labels and content
owners, so that we can work together to the benefit of all parties. To be
effective, these agreements, however, must be struck directly with the
respected content owners in the boardroom not the courtroom."

------
MatthewPhillips
I'm worried that this is influenced, at least subconsciously, by Google's
attempts to open their own music service. If Google can stay in the good
graces of the RIAA, they're more likely to get the streaming/cloud concessions
they're hoping for. Smells like a huge conflict of interest.

------
ben1040
If I remember right, at least a year ago when I first got my Nexus One,
Grooveshark was also hidden on Android Market if I had an AT&T SIM in my
phone. I could only see it and download it if I pulled my SIM out and
connected via wifi. Otherwise, searching for it turned up nothing.

This was when I discovered that there are carrier specific blacklist on the
Market -- PDANet was a similarly blocked app, presumably on AT&T's request.

------
code_duck
Well, there goes one of the advantages of Android that I mention when
endorsing my phone to my friends.

On the other hand, as Android still has Flash, even if you couldn't install
non-market apps one could just go to Grooveshark's website.

~~~
jokermatt999
It's still available at <http://mobile.grooveshark.com/android>. I installed
it earlier.

------
arihant
Grooveshark's official app, sadly, never ran well for me. There are bunch of
other Grooveshark apps, such as TinyShark, which perform far better. Would be
fun to see Google running around killing little sharks.

------
Herwig
This company and service is absolutely amazing. Points for the amazing UI/UX

------
olalonde
Are there currently alternatives to the Android Market?

~~~
jamesbritt
The Internet.

Also Amazon's App Store, though I tried them out and won't go back until they
stop coupling app store apps to the App Store app itself.

~~~
metageek
> _won't go back until they stop coupling app store apps to the App Store app
> itself._

How's that? You mean you can't run the downloaded apps if you uninstall the
App Store app?

~~~
jamesbritt
_How's that? You mean you can't run the downloaded apps if you uninstall the
App Store app?_

Exactly.

I have been using an app called Privacy Blocker that scans apps, reports on
what identifier info apps are sending, and optional re-writes the apk to have
it send bogus data. Very cool.

So I scan the Amazon App Store app. Not good. I tell Privacy Blocker to fix
it. Looks fine. Later I try to run Angry Birds Rio, one of the free apps
Amazon was offering. I get a message telling me my App Store app is old and
needs updating; Angry Birds then exits.

I can't figure out how to update or reinstall the App Store from Amazon, so I
put back the original version (Privacy Blocker saves these). Oh, look, Angry
Birds works fine.

Fuck that. I uninstall App Store; Angry Birds won't run, telling me I need the
App Store app. Same goes for the Winamp app which I grabbed from Amazon (also
free).

No big deal, I remove those apps, then go grab Winamp from Google's app store.
Free, no problem running it, no need for some intermediary grubbing my usage
details.

So, Amazon App Store, good for developers, less good for users.

~~~
true_religion
Did you try and remove the Google app store to see if its coupled with its
apps?

~~~
jamesbritt
A follow up: Did not remove the Google Market app, but I did force kill it,
and saw no effect on starting or running other apps.

------
yanw
Google is under huge pressure from lawmakers in this regard:
<http://news.cnet.com/8301-31001_3-20051248-261.html>

During the last COICA/piracy congressional hearing reps were asking why Google
doesn't fix all the ills in the world and stop all crime and the one before
that turned into a Google witch trial in absentia.

