
Apple Says Apps Must Now Disclose Odds for Loot Boxes - kelukelugames
https://kotaku.com/apple-says-itunes-apps-must-now-disclose-odds-for-loot-1821497923
======
fragsworth
This is nothing but lip service. The problem with loot boxes isn't that there
are unfair odds - most companies use consistent odds for their loot boxes.
There are some shady practices where the odds change on a per-player basis,
but that's really beside the point. Apple is willing to "fix" this because it
has zero effect on their bottom line.

The real problem is that players are getting _tricked_ into installing a
"free" game but later sucked into gambling once they're invested and addicted.
Showing the odds somewhere in the app doesn't change this deceptive and
unethical practice.

What they should really do is force apps to disclose the maximum amount a
player can spend, front-and-center in the app store. And then also display
other statistics - like the ARPU and ARPPU (average revenue per user, and
average revenue per paying user). And then allow us to filter apps based on
that criteria. If it were visible enough, and filterable enough, we'd see the
developer landscape change to make games that are better for players.

~~~
methodover
> What they should really do is force apps to disclose the maximum amount a
> player can spend, front-and-center in the app store. And then also display
> other statistics - like the ARPU and ARPPU (average revenue per user, and
> average revenue per paying user). And then allow us to filter apps based on
> that criteria.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

I recently quit Hearthstone once I realized that the game was slowly sucking
me into paying more. It's a great game. But they obfuscate the true cost of
playing.

In that digital card game, players want specific cards to build a specific
deck. But the manner in which you acquire specific cards is expensive, and the
expense is heavily obfuscated. I doubt that most players understand the real
cost of playing.

To get a card, you need to buy a card pack. Card packs have 5 random cards
(with a rather complex algorithm behind what cards are in a pack). These cards
can be duplicates, which you could transform into "dust" (a kind of currency)
to buy the card you actually want. The true cost of buying a specific card
that you might want depends on a bunch of factors, such as how many duplicates
you already have.

In Hearthstone and other "free to play" games, the true cost of playing is
nebulous. The game acquires players partly by advertising that playing is
free. However, in reality they are likely among the most expensive games you
could play.

The cost of acquiring a complete set of all cards in a Hearthstone expansion
is around $400 [1]. Which is insane. In order to play competitively, you
probably need half that -- which is still around $200.

If the costs were clearly and honestly labeled, players wouldn't play. So they
aren't.

I hope the industry self-regulates, like they did with the ESRB and
censorship. I hate the direction the industry has taken here.

1\. [https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/04/14/it-
costs-...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/04/14/it-
costs-400-for-a-full-ungoro-expansion-card-set-in-hearthstone/#47580e0644fe)

~~~
hfourm
To be fair, Hearthstone is one of the better value games! It is still a
"collectible" card game, from a very reputable company, with a lot of expected
longevity -- based on a huge universe. You get to use your cards against other
players, etc They also give you fairly consistent means of getting free cards.

There are so many Gacha style games that are WAY more of a rip off than that.
They get you sucked into the game, then the only way to progress is to become
a whale. It is awful

~~~
mulmen
I'm not sure that "Hearthstone is less predatory" is a _fair_ argument. The
criticism against Hearthstone is still valid, even if there are other
offenders.

~~~
hfourm
I see hearthstone cards as more of an expansion pack per say, its also got a
long established history in the physical space (games like Magic, etc)

There are huge tournaments every month, a huge twitch scene, etc

Its a legit game and most people know what they are getting into.

DBZ Dokkan battle on the other hand....

~~~
Fnoord
???

Tournaments or a huge Twitch scene don't make it legit or not. They tell us
something about a game's size or impact.

Small (indie) games can be loads of fun. I had more fun with a simple game
like Airmash [1] than I ever had in WoW because that game is fair, and you
need skill. You can't grind towards an advantage. If you did, you can lose it
very quickly. Evens playing field.

Blizzard games, with the exception of Starcraft II, are made for carebears
with too much time who want to feel good beating players who put less time in
the game not by becoming better (as games used to work) but by getting better
gear/equipment/cards/characters. A dog eat dog world, essentially. I've
learned and adapted to find _that_ evil.

[1] [https://airma.sh/](https://airma.sh/)

------
jws
China enacted a law in May which requires games selling loot boxes to reveal
the odds.[1] This new Apple policy will help their compliance. I don’t recall
a “do you have loot boxes with unpublished odds” check box anywhere in my iOS
app information, so it seems that Apple needed to do something to filter
offenders from appearing in the Chinese app store.

[1] [https://zhugeex.com/2016/12/chinas-new-online-gaming-
regulat...](https://zhugeex.com/2016/12/chinas-new-online-gaming-regulations/)

~~~
kelukelugames
Interesting. Is Apple doing this primarily to appease the Chinese government
or they care about us consumers?

~~~
IBM
The fact that this policy applies to every App Store and not just the Chinese
one should answer your question.

~~~
MBCook
Enforcing it globally is probably just easier, especially since other
countries may end up passing similar laws.

Honestly any transparency in this area is probably a nice win, even if this
isn’t as good as banning the things are fixing a lot of the other scummy
practices out there.

------
brianwawok
People don't care about odds, or the odds on the back of lotto tickets would
reduce gambling.

Even if you do know the odds, do you even know the cost of the loot box? Say
the loot box cost 500 murp points, and you can buy 25 merp points for $1 or
700 merp points for $9 or 10000 merp points for $80, and the odds of your loot
box are 1:100 for having a rare item - what is your EV to spend to get the
rare item?

~~~
Spooky23
Uh, people do. Hardcore lotto players know which scratch offs have the best
payouts and know the most efficient betting strategies for most games. Some of
them even track the outstanding jackpot winners available. Look at what people
buy when you're in a gas station.

Disclosure would probably reduce the temptation to offer really shitty odds.

~~~
ThrowawayR2
But these games are aimed at children and teenagers, not hardcore lotto
players. They probably won't do the math.

~~~
Fnoord
True, but as a parent, if its disclosed in App Store, you can do the math for
the kid and decide if you want them to play the game or forbid it and offer an
alternative, more fair game.

------
roc
Good.

Now add a distinction between IAPs for consumables vs features vs content.

------
pmarreck
I have trouble biting my tongue about the games mentioned so I will just say:
Ethically, those games are, arguably, predatory shit. They use psychology to
vampire money out of you via your dopamine receptors and they bring shame to
all gaming by even being termed “games.” (And don’t get me started on the
casino industry rebranding gambling as “gaming.”)

As soon as any game I ever come into contact with starts to “well, you can
wait an hour OR have it get finished right now with 1 doohickey!”, immediate
delete.

What is frustrating is that this toxic mechanic has been applied to franchises
I have previously loved such as Simpsons and Star Trek.

------
dmitrygr
> Loot boxes [...] are virtual grab bags that can give players a host

> of items ranging from common to rare. [...] you can buy these loot

> boxes [...] for real money, which has led some players to classify

> them as gambling—a label that the Entertainment Software Rating

> Board doesn’t acknowledge.

Is the ESRB using some strange definition of gambling that the rest of us are
unaware of? This seems like the textbook definition.

~~~
IncRnd
It it only gambling if you can take in-game items and convert them using game
facilities back to cash.

In other words, what you describe may appear as a form of payment for
consideration to win, but if you aren't really winning anything that can't be
classifed as gambling.

This is why most game sales specifically mention they cannot be converted to
cash and are for digital items only.

------
rowyourboat
This makes it very obvious that buying loot boxes is, in fact, a form of
gambling. We'll see how long that lasts in jurisdictions with tight gambling
laws (i.e. Germany)

~~~
Retric
Germany does not ban trading card games (Pokemon, Magic the gathering, Yu-Gi-
Oh! etc), which are real world examples of loot boxes.

The difference is you can trade rare X with someone else for money, but the
company is not going to pay you when you get rare X.

------
joosters
I hope that the appearance of odds will make it clear that these loot boxes
are just a form of gambling, and as such they should not be allowed for
under-18s. In most countries, it is an offence to target gambling at minors,
and you must do reasonable checks to prevent them from playing.

The threat of losing a large proportion of their customers would hopefully
dissuade some companies from including gambling in their games.

------
spunker540
I do think it’s only fair for these games to disclose odds but I don’t think
it will lead to any change. Casinos also disclose odds and they’re clearly in
favor of the house, but people still go in droves!

The bottom line is this new micro payment business model is here to stay, and
hopefully people give money to the games that do it well and avoid paying the
games that are simply exploitative.

------
xutopia
I stopped playing Clash Royale despite finding it a wonderful game because
it's essentially pay to win. I would love to play a game similar to that one
where the odds aren't stacked against the poorest of the players. Where you
can play against players who have the same character choices as you.

~~~
minimaxir
That's the appeal of MOBAs like League of Legends, where all characters are
equal and real-world money is only used to buy cosmetics.

In the mobile market, Arena of Valor just released in the US and it's
surprisingly polished, gives a lot of heroes for free, and isn't aggressive
about monetization. (in contrast, Vainglory, an earlier mobile MOBA, is _very_
aggressive about getting you to spend money, including locking a lot of
content behind lootboxes)

~~~
throwaway2048
All characters in league of legends are not equal, its less blatantly pay to
win than some games, but to argue its only cosmetic is ridiculous.

~~~
nasmorn
All characters can be unlocked with in game currency. So a poor player can
play any character she likes. Just not all of them

------
ebbv
It's still legal gambling targeting kids. It's heinous.

~~~
menacingly
In my sphere, it's actually adults that play these games the most. My kids
love physical loot boxes (like blind bags and card booster packs), but they
aren't really interested in the digital stuff.

I was just thinking about this this morning, because I think of them as
targeting kids too, but the real junkies I know are grownups.

~~~
ivanbakel
It's equally true because children tend not to have any good whale properties
- disposable income near-nil, no credit card, etc. The kickback against
accidental purchases has pretty much killed off that corner of the market, so
there's no real reason to keep trying to get blood from the stone.

