
New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking - thg
https://www.forbrukerradet.no/side/google-manipulates-users-into-constant-tracking
======
kache_
They constantly berate you to deactivate no tracking preferences on google
maps. When you're aware of this fact you start seeing it everywhere, not just
on google. For example, on Pinterest they will berate you to sign up using
highlighted buttons on land, and the x button is out of the way on the top
right corner.

This end result is due to product managers/devs looking at conversion rates
and optimizing for whatever their metric of success is, which in this case is
creating accounts and users being more "engaged" with the platform. 3 or 4
rounds of A/B testing and you get the most efficient (read: manipulative)
method of getting users "engaged". There may be no intention of manipulation
but using empirical evidence to achieve your metric of success will tend to
make your product manipulative.

~~~
contravariant
At this point I'm convinced they're deliberately making their captcha's
impossible, to annoy me for taking anti-tracking measures.

~~~
castis
On the plus side I've become 400% better at identifying whether or not objects
are traffic lights and/or fire hydrants.

~~~
mrhappyunhappy
The most annoying captchas are the ones that change after selecting them. What
da faq do I look like - free labor?!?!

~~~
NeedMoreTea
yes.

------
FabHK
My list of degooglifying actions:

* switch default search engine to DuckDuckGo (can still use !s bang when one wants to see what Google has)

* use tracking blocker (uBlock origin, BlockBear on iOS)

* use anonymous/private/porn mode browsing most of the time (except for sites I actually want to be logged in permanently)

* use Zoho as a replacement for shared Google docs

* use Youtube either in private window, and/or download content with youtube-dl

* use Apple Maps or OpenStreetMaps instead of Google maps, though still revert to Google maps sometimes. It's good. (But never log in, and don't use the apps).

* long ago switched to different email for main email, and forwarded gmail account to it (nobody uses it anymore). (In fact, I use a catch-all domain now (very easy to set up), and a fresh email for basically every account. Quite handy.)

* for contacts, photos, etc. I use Apple's built-in stuff. I do trust Apple a bit more (and it's a different business model; quite evidently unfortunately when you look at recent iPhone prices.)

All in all, I think a fairly degooglified life is eminently possible.

~~~
pyr0hu
> * use anonymous/private/porn mode browsing most of the time (except for
> sites I actually want to be logged in permanently)

instead of this, I just use Firefox and use the Multi-Account Container
function to separate my browsing

~~~
Pxtl
Firefox is great on desktop, but I've found it too slow and clumsy on mobile,
sadly.

~~~
ACow_Adonis
But with the ad-blocker installed, you get a bonus speed boost that doesn't
apply to the other browsers...

~~~
sexy_seedbox
That's why I use Brave on mobile.

~~~
throwmeback
I like Bromite on Android.

------
annapurna
_Android users are pushed through a variety of techniques:

    
    
      Deceptive click flow
      Hidden default settings
      Misleading and unbalanced information
      Repeated nudging
      Bundling of services and lack of granular choices*
    

Deceptive click flow is _the click-flow when setting up an Android device
pushes users into enabling “Location History” without being aware of it.*

Hidden Default settings is _[when] setting up a Google account, the Web & App
activity settings are hidden behind extra clicks and enabled by default._

Third one is _users not given sufficient information when presented with
choices, and are misled about what data is collected and how it is used._

Repeated nudging is users being _repeatedly asked to turn on “Location
History” when using different Google services even if they decided against
this feature when setting up their phone._

And finally, bundling services when for example _if the user wants features
such as Google Assistant and photos sorted by location, Google turns on
invasive location tracking._

I would believe most of us HN crowd are fully aware of the pros and cons of
such tracking and make our choices accordingly (using these
tools/software/devices). However, for the majority (yes, they may not appear
to be interested in privacy as yesterday's FB quarterly report shows), are
they aware of how much data is being collected, how it could be misused, etc.?
We, as a society, should do our part in pushing back against such
indiscriminate tracking. No specific call to action. For my older parents, I
have switched them to iPhone 6S and have gradually gotten older family
relatives to do the same as well.

~~~
ehsankia
I would've liked it if they included photos and videos of these "deceptive"
interactions. Instead they have this flashy video which basically is just
showcasing the Timeline feature, and pretending it's some secret malicious
data collection plan.

~~~
FabHK
Do you doubt that the deceptive interactions they describe exist as described?

Most people do _not_ realise how much data Google et al. collect about them,
and are genuinely shocked when it is shown to them (even though, yes, it's an
existing feature well known to you and most HN readers).

The video demonstrates both a) how much Google collects (which comes as a
surprise to most people), and b) that most people are not aware of it (which
apparently comes as a surprise to you).

> pretending it's some secret malicious data collection plan

Of course, there's the maxim that one should never ascribe to malice what can
plausibly be blamed on incompetence. But sorry, if you find these repeated
dark patterns throughout again and again, in apps that have been carefully
designed and optimised by huge teams of people, then it is justified to speak
of bad intentions.

~~~
mda
I kinda doubt actually. Personal anecdote : I disabled location history about
a year ago, and it almost never asked me to enable it afterwards, obviously
they dialed it down quite a bit lately. Other claims are also hand wavy. They
should include tiimestamped videos with build ids otherwise, it is horse
manure.

------
levesque
I tried using Google Maps without search history turned on. It's basically a
downgraded version. They tied saving locations with the search history, so it
won't let you search for friends' contacts, set a home address, etc. Is it on
purpose? I don't know, but I find it weird that they would tie some unrelated
features together. Why does setting a Home address require search history?

~~~
rifung
> Is it on purpose? I don't know, but I find it weird that they would tie some
> unrelated features together. Why does setting a Home address require search
> history?

I work at Google but not on Maps, opinions are my own.

I don't know if this is why they did it that way, but it wouldn't surprise me
if the reason was merely that 99.9% of users opt in to location sharing and
the developers didn't feel it useful to spend time supporting the use case for
the 0.1%.

You have to also keep in mind that Google is just a company with thousands of
individuals who each have their own motives and are given incentives by the
company. If a developer is career driven (and many if not most are) they have
to work on "high impact" things to get a good performance review. Since Google
tries to be very objective, you have to measure your impact with data and
sadly 0.1% of users is not really considered impactful. Unfortunately good
will earned by customers is hard to measure.

Again just my observation from working here.

~~~
FabHK
Well, in particular, if a developer "untied" these things (ie made the app
more useful without signing in), and then the ratio of users who do sign in
drops, then that is presumably a "bad impact" metric for the developer. Why
would they do that?

It seems rather obvious that there is little incentive to provide usefulness
without tying it as closely as possible to data collection.

~~~
bubblethink
>It seems rather obvious that there is little incentive to provide usefulness
without tying it as closely as possible to data collection.

That seems about right. Other than services that you actually pay hard cash
for (like gce), all other metrics will eventually trace back to some kind of
ad/data related metric.

------
jerf
This dark pattern seems to be spreading. Amazon recently pushed out an update
to their (beta last I knew) web app that allows you to use their
smile.amazon.com charity donation through the app. But in order to turn that
on, you have to turn on _all_ the notifications the app has, including their
rather constant pushes of "deals I may be interested in". They're holding you
hostage to their notifications because "it's for charity!"

Not that this is news, but clearly Silicon Valley has no intention of
retraining itself in any manner. Every wheedling trick in the book will be
used to track you, up to and including holding arbitrary charities emotionally
hostage.

~~~
_jal
Amazon finally exceeded my tolerance for slimy behavior last year, and I let
Prime lapse. The amount of time and energy they have put in to making it hard
to compare prices in their own goddamn store was enough by itself; behavior
like this is motor-oil icing on the garbage cake.

I had to readjust a few common purchases, but I was far less habituated to
them than I thought I was. Having to actually pay attention and look meant I
found cheaper options. And I never cared about Video or their other goofy add-
ons.

Still handy for pricing data-points when buying elsewhere, though.

~~~
JKCalhoun
Yep, let Prime lapse a year or two ago as well. Moving my business to other
companies now.

~~~
malnourish
What competitors are you using?

~~~
tspike
Walmart.com has stepped it up recently. Still a long way to go, and I doubt
their intentions are any better, but competition is healthy.

~~~
Loughla
As much as Amazon seems to be throwing their mud in consumers' collective
faces, the Waltons are 100% not better people and Wal-Mart's entire success is
based on exploiting low-wage workers and subsidizing your workforce through
social programs.

That's like trading arsenic for cyanide.

~~~
nroets
Last year I spent 5 months cycling through the US. Walmart was the one place I
could consistently find healthy food such as fruit at low prices.

Many other retailers have specials prices on fruit that only apply to loyalty
cards holders. Obviously they track their customers.

~~~
marnett
I'm fascinated that you cycled through the U.S. Did you happen to write
anything about your travels that you're willing to share? I'd love to hear
your experiences seeing America.

~~~
nroets
[http://cycleblaze.com/journals/burgers](http://cycleblaze.com/journals/burgers)

I met hundreds of people and most of them were so generous with food,
accommodation etc. Some even tried to give me money.

~~~
marnett
I'm late to get back to you - thanks for sharing this. This is so extensive
and exactly what I was looking for!

------
sephoric
Ethically I think the good old days of software _products_ were superior to
the current days of software _services_. Services are paid for by subscription
or ads or selling data, so that they are forced to optimize for continued use.
Products are sold as-is, with the hope that they are useful enough that enough
people will buy them once and own it forever.

It should work this way: you spend N months making a useful product that fills
a real need, start selling it, and ideally make just enough money to cover the
time you spent working on it. As soon as you start selling it and money comes
in, you start working on another product. This has flaws though. You have to
have the cash up front to pay your own bills for the first N months. And you
risk not making up the time you spent.

But what I see happening is worse: people make products that sell, get greedy
over the money they can make, and milk that product to death, first by paid
upgrades (which isn't inherently unethical) but then turning to subscriptions
or free but selling you to ad- or data-companies.

~~~
DontGiveTwoFlux
Having worked on desktop software, I much prefer the services model.

There were endless conversations about a support matrix and patching older
versions for customers who refused to upgrade. We were hamstrung by old design
decisions and backporting fixes making any change onerous. We couldn’t add
value for new customers as fast because we spent a majority of the time
supporting older customers. Now those older customers probably preferred it
that way. They had software that worked (until a new vulnerability was
discovered at least) and that they had paid for and liked. But as the decades
(literally software that old) dragged on they became like technical debt that
we couldn’t detach.

As a developer, the incentives were clear. If I’m spending half my time
supporting people who had already paid and weren’t likely to pay again, then I
can be more productive elsewhere, creating more additional value at a company
that had a services model. So I left.

~~~
reaperducer
_Having worked on desktop software, I much prefer the services model._

I think that's one portion of how we ended up where we are now: The companies
thinking more about what is easier for the company than the needs of the
customer.

~~~
int_19h
The companies will always think about their bottom line. They will think of
the needs of the customer to the extent that actually affects said bottom
line. But customers demonstrated, through their behavior in the marketplace,
that they also prefer the service model - or at least they don't care enough
to preserve the old model. And so, here we are.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Software tends to spread from person to person, and any given piece of
software in context is usually non-substitutable - therefore I believe
consumers _weren 't really given an option_ to voice their opinion on product
vs. service. Companies started to migrate to service model, and customers had
to follow suit, because they didn't have any choice.

~~~
int_19h
Customers had a choice in many cases. For example, Office is still offered as
both a boxed product, and as a subscription service. Every time I see a
discussion on one versus the other online, most people prefer the service,
because it's cheaper (even long term).

------
aaaaaaaaaaab
Whenever you tap a link in the iOS YouTube app, it starts nagging you to
download Chrome, or continue with the old boring Safari... There's a pre-
checked switch at the bottom of the dialog that says "Ask me which app to use
every time". Now, even if you uncheck the switch and choose Safari, they will
only let you off the hook for around a day; after this cooldown period you're
"offered" to download Chrome yet again, ad nauseam!

Just a gut feeling, but I think if I had installed Chrome once, they would
never show me this dialog again... :)

Seriously Googlers, how do you look into the mirror each morning?

~~~
hesarenu
Chrome is just a safari skin. There is no freedom to choose browser render in
iOS.

~~~
aaaaaaaaaaab
Yes. Chrome is just a Safari skin plus Google’s tracking.

Which makes this dialog in the YouTube app even more ridiculous.

------
sborra
Google Maps works just fine with the GPS from my phone's sensors, but _every
single time_ I bring up the app, it asks me to enable device location and
Google Location Services.

I stubbornly (and maybe foolishly) keep opting out of every Google tracking
option, it's crazy how annoying they are if you do this.

~~~
gdulli
This happens to me too, various opt-in nags on both desktop and mobile. Using
google maps has become a chore for me. I used to like going to the site or the
app and browsing around for fun to learn about a new place. Now I only use it
when I absolutely need to.

~~~
corint
I'm now trying to use OSMAnd wherever possible. If there's a location I can't
use it to find, I'll revert to Google Maps (and click 'no' to the opt in nag).
When home, I'll make sure to update OpenStreetMap to make their map more
useful.

I'm convinced that open data is the better option. Certainly, I'm happy to
volunteer my time and effort to contribute to things like OSM (and Wikipedia),
but I'm loathe to part with my personal data for 'free' to a huge advertising
behemoth.

~~~
_underfl0w_
My biggest gripe with OsmAnd is the fact that plug-ins are actually part of
the source code, meaning that I would need to recompile the entire project to
accommodate, say, a plug-in that could pull in traffic data. That's my largest
use case for maps apps - avoiding traffic on my lengthy commute.

There are some gross hacks to get traffic overlays on the map, but the
navigation still chooses routes independently of that data (driving you right
_into_ traffic)

------
ingenieroariel
I have had to visit the #nixos channel in Freenode (IRC) lately on a computer
with all tracking disabled and the Recaptcha that is usually just click and
continue becomes a multi-minute endeavor finding street signs, cars and buses.
You really get punished if you opt out of tracking.

~~~
Crespyl
I'm sure this isn't done, but I do have to wonder if it'd be possible to
identify a user by their unique behaviors when interacting with the extended
Recaptcha puzzles. Something like writing style analysis, but applied to
patterns of mouse movement, click timings and positions, or recognition rates
for particular types of problems.

~~~
jamiek88
If it can be done it will be done seems to be the moral of these stories so
lets hope not.

------
ThomPete
I for one are happy to be tracked so that my experience is optimal.

Edit: I understand the potential issues and especially with someone like
Google using it for other things. But I am more concerned about the backlash
against using data to improve our world.

There are many different areas which would be improved greatly from more data
and would be to everyone's benefit.

Personally I have always shared as much as I can as I believe that the more we
share the more the problem corrects itself. But each to their own.

~~~
epicide
I don't see people willing to share their data (with companies like Google) as
the issue. The problem I'm concerned about is that there is a decreasing
amount of choice in the matter. While you ultimately have a choice in a lot of
these privacy-concerning cases, it's increasingly difficult and annoying to do
so. People eventually cave and Google (et al) profits greatly by pushing them
to do so.

> There are many different areas which would be improved greatly from more
> data and would be to everyone's benefit.

I agree wholeheartedly that data can be used for some really fantastic things,
but it should not come at the cost of choice/freedom nor privacy.

I'm also thinking about it in terms of opportunity cost. Namely, companies
like Google and Facebook are poisoning the waters for would-be data-based
companies that would have much greater impacts on quality of life for
everyone. While they help some things at the moment, I think they are
ultimately hurting would-be bigger and better data driven endeavors.

~~~
ThomPete
Yeah but that's the problem of technology though especially the AI-driven one.

It forces consolidation of data as a way to compete. You can't both have lots
of competition and good use of data as the value is in the accumulated data.

What I think we still need a revolution in is how to make consumers data
brokers of their own data. There are some attempts at making this a reality
but it's not clear what the utility which will force this transcendence is
going to be.

------
marricks
Privacy is like drinking water: no one in the US cares about it until it's on
the news.

Why don't people care about clean water? Because federal agencies set
standards and test for them. You could bore someone to death talking about it
until Flint happened. And sure some people buy water tests to verify they're
not getting poisoned, or setup their own filtration systems but most people
don't want to waste the time or don't have the knowledge. Just the same as
privacy.

Not every can or will get educated about privacy, and really they shouldn't
have to, it should be a waste of their time. But it's not because we don't set
standards for it. Most people give it away without knowing it's value only to
have it bite them in the ass later through identify theft, data breaches, or
eventually giving into a surveillance state where the government and big
corporations know more about your than your mom does.

This is why it needs government intervention, because without it corporations
will claim to give you a choice every step of the way but no one will
understand what those choices entail, and it turns out they'll badger and
pester you to make the choices that benefit themselves.

Relatedly, this is why I am OK with iOS being a walled garden. Sure, they make
bank from it, but that incentivises them to make it protected. As I said in
another thread, they're the only one capable and willing of enforcing privacy
rules until the government steps up.

------
daveguy
FTA: "Bundling of services and lack of granular choices - If the user wants
features such as Google Assistant and photos sorted by location, Google turns
on invasive location tracking."

I unplugged my google home precisely for this reason. It wouldn't operate with
all kinds of web and location tracking turned on. And when I turned them off
it would only respond with something along the lines of "you have to turn on
<tracking_feature_x> for google home to work properly."

The hell I do. Amazon doesn't require me to turn stuff like that on to work
just fine.

It was blatant and a bit nauseating. After that I understood the google-free
movement very well.

I would still like an all-on-site voice assistant that respects privacy.

~~~
_underfl0w_
There was an article posted here recently about a device that feeds white
noise to devices like that until you give the new device they keyword it's
looking for. It was supposed to look like a fungus or something. Lemme see if
I can find the article...

Wouldn't help with location tracking, but might put your mind partially at
ease if you own a creepy home assistant thing.

~~~
darkpuma
Project Alias.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18903289](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18903289)

------
lbj
At some point we need to sit down and map, exactly what kind of information
can be extracted from which meta-data sets.

For instance, screen time is also sleeping habits, for some its toiletbreaks.
If its toiletbreaks, its stomach/health related. Couple that with location,
its eating habits and risk factors. Couple that with phonelogs its much much
more.

Once we have that mapped out, we can do an honest evaluation of whats being
tracked, because every extrapolation possible will at some point be turned
into usable data (my theory).

~~~
auslander
> honest evaluation of whats being tracked

And, next steps? Easier just to apply basic OPSEC into your life, no data - no
extrapolations.

------
heywire
On the subject of Dark Patterns, Linkedin has to be one of the biggest
offenders. Almost every time I open their app (which isn't very often), they
try to trick me into uploading my contact list. I wonder if it'll come to some
sort of regulation that requires companies to respect your opt-out answer and
not continuously badger you into opting back in.

------
jackbravo
Definitely. I think the initial setup of an android phone is pretty similar to
that of windows 10. You have to read everything very carefully to avoid all
the dark patterns and hidden consents for tracking.

------
sf_rob
The thing that drives me nuts is (at least last time I set them up) Google
Home and Android Auto both require Location and Web Activity permissions at an
account level. I don't understand why Google just can't offer a subset of
functionality on these devices rather than forcing you to have enable these
permissions.

~~~
maxxxxx
Thy can do this but they don’t want to.

------
dreamcompiler
What Android desperately needs is an additional API layer that provides apps
like Google and others with fake location data and fake contact data so
there's simply no way they can tell that you're holding information back.
Turning off these data sources just makes them use dark patterns to get you to
turn them back on; _spoofing_ the data is the real solution.

~~~
_underfl0w_
What you're looking for is called 'MicroG'. They even have their own LineageOS
builds with it.

Haven't tested it though, and it comes with its own set of security concerns.

------
sn41
The privacy settings user interface on my Android is deceptive. It lures you
into thinking that you have changed all the settings and does not show all the
settings in one go. Google is creepy.

------
hypnotortoise
Another example of Google not even trying to give the account holder an option
to pause tracking is the purchase/order-linking feature for purchases history.
They scan the users Gmail account for orders/receipts and quietly storing that
information into the purchases history as can be seen by going to
[https://myaccount.google.com/purchases](https://myaccount.google.com/purchases).

Instead of giving the account holder an option to delete this history, their
helper section vaguely mentions you can go to Gmail and "manage" the
corresponding message.
[https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/7673989](https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/7673989)

------
gerbilly
I read an article a while back, that argued[1] that openness to tracking and
surveillance may be linked to helicopter parenting.

The argument goes that because millenials have been raised to be under
continuous adult supervision, that predisposes them to view surveillance as
benign and benevolent.

[1] I can't find the source.

~~~
lostmyoldone
This was (essentially) the assumption that made me decide that teaching my
daughter to expect privacy by respecting hers was the only way to go. It
turned out well, and I feel like a lot of other positives emerged out of it.

------
toss1
All this tracking is obviously one-sided.

I might not mind it so much if I had access to sufficiently granular data to
make it useful, such as automatic workout tracking. I'm sure they have the
data and the AI to notice that I'm on foot/bike moving at a higher-than-normal
pace and on one of my usual workout routes. Or, to provide nice detailed
reports of my commute (min/max, variance, total time, etc.)...

But no, the only data we get is rough, 'you visited store X yesterday, want to
review it?', when I actually only visited the much smaller store nearby...

There is already starting a backlash from this massively greedy -- in both
data & money -- culture. It would not surprise me to see it overshoot and
seriously cripple the industry if the participants don't become a bit more
self-aware.

------
mscasts
This is scary stuff. Thank you norway for taking the fight against Google.

How can you turn this off on an android?

~~~
snazz
Installing LineageOS without any Google apps (including Google Play Services)
might be the only way to continue using Android minus the tracking. You lose
quite a bit of convenience for this, though. And of course, you’re still being
tracked by virtue of it being a cell phone with a baseband processor (see my
comment at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18821444](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18821444)).

~~~
Tepix
Your carrier will know where you are (and have been). Are you saying this
information is also available to apps?

~~~
snazz
I meant more that it is very hard to completely avoid tracking and that the
cell carrier is an often-overlooked part of the equation.

------
DogCalledMurph
Google Podcasts is the same. No subscribing to a podcast without Web History
turned on.

The message says its needed to get personalized recommendations.

------
ChuckMcM
This aspect of Google (forcing you into full surveillance mode before they
will enable services) is the reason my wife is looking at an iPhone for her
next phone. To the extent that others follow that move will be interesting to
watch.

~~~
shereadsthenews
Even for those of us all-in on Google services -- like me with Gmail, Drive,
Maps with history and sharing, YouTube Red -- iOS is way better. iOS and all
the Google apps works great, and you can dump Google at any time.

------
captainsidd
Great article, thank you for sharing. Love the list of deceptive practices -
reads as a blueprint for what to avoid if you respect your users.

The "data helps us understand usage and build a better product" narrative is
all over these comments and in product teams. Revealed preferences are helpful
for building better products. I suppose the story gets twisted when "better"
for the business diverges from "better" for the user. Are there ways to
achieve a win-win here by sufficiently anonymizing data or explaining why
tracking is helpful and asking for explicit consent? Would love if anyone has
links / reads on this.

------
throw2016
There are more than 40000 individuals in Google in SV working to stalk you
24/7 and monetizing the data with different teams thinking up more ways and
means to do it, other teams working on thwart any regulatory or other
challenges to ensure business continuity, other envisioning a future in which
they can grow this business unhindered.

This is an entire organization devoted just to this, and they in turn enable
ecosystems of hundreds of thousands all interlinked driven by profit.

Yet on a technical forum which probably has a large proportion of people
involved in this intimately as their jobs we do not have informed discussion,
instead we pretend as if its not happening, or a one off by a 'misguided
program manager', or the motives are 'benign' or unquestioningly accept self
serving attempts to 'normalize' this surveillance dystopia.

This is an insult to informed discussion and enables an environment and
discussions where blatant bad behavior is consistently overlooked and control
of standards that benefit toxic business models are glibly handed over without
scrutiny, skepticism or challenge. And then when one day one wakes up in
dystopia some will wonder how it happened, this is a culture of delusion.

------
philamonster
Actively having to take extra steps to just log out of any of their services
is the biggest little deception. Once they changed their login screen (cannot
even remember when) you had to click multiple extra times to remove an account
explicitly or you were still tracked/logged in/Google was aware of you. I
started deleting history in Fx whenever the browser is closed which helps with
this but I have windows/tabs open for weeks for a reason and can't always
close the browser. I've just some to accept the extra steps it takes to
actually logout though it pisses me off slightly each time I do it.

I've taken no steps to confirm they are actively getting info from my browser
if I don't remove my account or if they are not if I do because I have turned
off as much account data tracking/opted out of as much as I could for my
Google account. But logging out of YouTube, which gives you no indication that
you are actively logged in in the active browser window, and then going to
mail.google.com will show you that Google is still aware of your account.
Bullshit.

------
3xblah
Scannning the comments here it does not appear anyone is considering the cost
of network activity and bandwidth.

The user is subsidising the tracking.

Google does not pay for the cost of the user's internet access or her mobile
data plan. In some cases, the user might only need an offline map however
instead she is coaxed into accessing the same map over a computer network
again and again, day after day, year after year. The cost of that access is
carried by the user, not Google. Multiply this cost over millions of users.

Users are paying, in many cases unnecessarily, to send tracking information to
Google.

When Google coaxes a user into accepting the settings that Google prefers
(24/7/365 tracking), users are not merely agreeing to be tracked in exchange
for something, a price not easily measurable and thus perceived as "free".
Users are agreeing to pay for the costs of that tracking, namely the
transmission costs to get the tracking data to Google. Those prices are
measurable, though few users might be measuring them.

Of course users are not opening an application and hitting a "send" button
everyday to do this task; it is not conscious spending. They are permitting
Google to do it for them in the background, using the user's CPU, memory,
storage and bandwidth.

None of those resources are "free". Whilst users may have generous amounts of
privacy and personal data to trade away in exchange for some perceived
benefit, users did not have to pay for those "assets". They might not put much
thought into whether each exchange was truly necessary.

On the contrary, users must pay for computing resources and internet access.
It stands to reason that they might not wish to trade away those acquired
assets where not truly necessary.

------
miguelmota
Big companies will break laws because they can afford to and the data they
collect provides more value to them than the price of the penalty.

Lawsuits like this have become the norm now and don't think it'll change any
time soon.

The majority of people will always choose convenience over privacy and remain
on these platforms even after reading headlines like this.

------
proactivesvcs
I understand the article is not about web site tracking, but the Norwegian
Consumer Council should not be permitting readers of that particular piece to
be tracked by Google, or have an eight-month tracking cookie dropped by them.
Either way, it's good to read another authority detail such unethical
practises.

------
codedokode
That is correct. In an earlier comment [1] I have checked what options are
enabled by default when registering or adding a Google Account to an Android
Phone. For example, checkboxes "Backup to Google Drive" and "Save web and app
activity" are enabled by default.

I suppose that many Android users might agree to these options without
understanding completely what they mean or even without noticing because some
of the options are hidden behind spoilers.

Android is an example of a case where you become a product although you have
paid for the phone.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18493084](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18493084)

------
onetimemanytime
Google no longer has the benefit of the doubt...these things would have gotten
traction a few years ago. Or, Googlers, must be doing this to cure cancer or
something, they're so good and nice. Now, all that goodwill gone.

------
avallark
I didnt know about location history and web & app activity. It is indeed quite
hidden and when I disabled them, i saw along with web and app activity, there
was a bunch of other history google was storing like search history, browsing
history etc. The really evil bit about Google is that, even when you disable
them, Google does not delete the already collected history, they just "PAUSE"
that so that they can keep old history.

------
atombender
Speaking of Google Maps location tracking, are there alternatives (for iOS)
that can let _me_ track myself, without putting all the location data in the
cloud?

I want to disable Google's location tracking, but I want to know where I've
been so that I can go back and recall. A sort of location diary.

The only app I know about is Life Cycle, which is quite good, but it doesn't
quite have the granularity I want.

------
diogenescynic
Yelp is the worst about this. You can’t even use most features on the mobile
website without downloading the app so they can suck up all your info.

~~~
sudo-i
Reddit too, they cripple their mobile website to force you into their mobile
app and hence your data.

~~~
simias
Oh man, tell me about it. I lurk on Reddit from time to time from my
smartphone and the experience nowadays is terrible. I have like half a dozen
elements disabled using u-block to make it somewhat bearable. From the
pulsating button at the top of _every_ page to the multiple dialogs taking
turn to harass you into installing the app...

On top of that I've noticed that the website keeps getting slower and slower
to load what's effectively a few KB of plain text comments.

The state of the web in 2019 is frankly shameful. Those are tactics that you
should expect from shady websites, not some of the biggest players in the
field. Everybody is trying to trick you into going against your best
interests.

The GDPR did a good job at highlighting that for me, suddenly all the websites
in the world deployed a wealth of ingenuity to develop new dark patterns to
trick you into opting into the tracking, using ambiguous controls and
confusingly worded instructions.

I hope this is only a phase and we'll move away from this toxic ad-driven
business model sooner or later but honestly at this point I'm not holding my
breath.

~~~
gerbilly
>The state of the web in 2019 is frankly shameful. Those are tactics that you
should expect from shady websites, not some of the biggest players in the
field.

Because of ad networks, _every_ site is now a shady website.

------
cityzen
A few years ago I made a comment about how funny it was that I would
immediately delete all the Apple default apps and replace with Google apps
(gmail, maps, etc). Now I'm back on the flipside and only use Apple Maps,
Mail, etc. Unless Apple really F's up, they are going to win the privacy game
and see a lot more usage of their native apps and services.

------
pornel
My "favorite" Google dark pattern is suggesting "Privacy Checkup" when I'm
logged out. The checkup of course requires signing in.

This is so cunning — they make it look like they care about my privacy, while
in reality they upgrade from no tracking (signed out) to at least default
tracking they allow themselves in the ToS.

~~~
mda
Why is this a dark pattern? There could be a lot of people who sometimes sign
in and sometimes stay logged out, the privacy checkup is useful for them, even
you might have some settings from past you might want to see. This is not a
dark pattern, HN became hysterical.

------
Phenomenit
The librem 5 can't come fast enough.

------
nhumrich
You cant use wear OS, or really any wearable on Android anymore without
enabling location tracking. They bundle "low power bluetooth" settings in the
same permission set as GPS in order to force you to leave it on at all times.

------
more_corn
Google is notorious for refusing to allow users to say no. They misread the
book "Nudge" and use the nudge techniques t to shove or one could use less
charitable descriptive words.

e.g. I would like to make the choice to NOT bind my location data to my
identity. In theory I can do that by not logging into Maps. In practice Google
refuses to allow that choice, constant nagging, attempts to force their
desired choice by nerfing logged out features. When you don't allow your uses
to say no you're not actually providing them any choice at all.

Google either needs to commit to allowing their users to say no or we (their
users but also citizens) need to have our courts and governments force them to
do it.

Note to you Google folks reading this (I'm looking at you Larry). Seriously.
Step up now because you will be sued for this, and you will force legislation
if you continue down this path.

------
gandutraveler
I think companies will always find ways to track you. One solution would be to
create a fake bot that will feed noise to these trackers by visiting random
sites and doing random google searches on your behalf.

------
shrimpx
I disabled web and app activity and then voice commands stopped working in
Android Auto so I had to turn it back on. Why does Android Auto need my web
and app activity to process sppech and search for me? Sheesh.

------
mysteryjeans
I have launched yelp clone pagestan.com for Pakistan. And feeling helpless to
compete against google's dominance. I am sure yelp is also reevaluating its
business model

------
bprasanna
Repeated nudging!:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18863660](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18863660)

------
MrZongle2
Remember when Big Bad Ol' Microsoft bundled their Web browser with the OS, and
that was beyond the pale?

That was so quaint.

------
enriquto
You do not really need a study for that, just a few minutes of browsing with
the uMatrix extension.

~~~
arminiusreturns
I used to use ublock origin and noscript a long time ago, but now after years
of browsing with umatrix, I say browsing without it is like having unprotected
sex with the internet.

------
Jenz
Haha! Much love to my home of Norway’s «forbrukerråd», i.e. consumers counsil.

------
Sidious
They ditched the don't be evil motto a while back, didn't they.

------
kowdermeister
It's fun to just browse your location history. You can much more easily recall
vacations, or other events you might have forgotten otherwise.

------
einarfd
So something that maybe not everyone knows, is that the Norwegian Consumer
Council, is the Norwegian governmental entity tasked with protecting consumers
right.

I'm not a lawyer, but my take on this, is that this is a governmental agency
in a GDPR country, triggering legal proceedings against Google for violating
the GDPR.

It is going to be interesting to see how this pans out, and imo. this case is
going to be a defining case on what the GDPR is in practice.

------
Buge
The title is false. This isn't a new study. This is from 2018.

------
thsealienbstrds
Duh.

------
oarabbus_
"Don't Be Evil" kids!

------
OmarGonzalez
Fuck surveillance capitalism

~~~
gerbilly
Word!

------
baxtr
_" If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you
shouldn't be doing it in the first place."_

Eric Schmidt, 2009

~~~
benschulz
This attitude makes me so off the charts angry, I struggle to put it into
words. I think Jews in Germany in the 1920s didn't think they were doing
anything wrong, or feel a need to actively hide it.

~~~
itronitron
Schmidt's attitude shows just how much Google thinks it owns the internet.
There is so much data out there that people can live in relative anonymity
online (95% of bloggers) however Google crawls and indexes so much that many
things become quite easy to find. All the tracking and linking and indexing
that is done without a person's informed consent makes that person's
intentional behavior a warped spotlight back on them.

~~~
PavlovsCat
> All the tracking and linking and indexing that is done without a person's
> informed consent makes that person's intentional behavior a warped spotlight
> back on them.

Sure, but only in the minds of people who don't even know themselves, and
can't make a coherent argument to save their lifes. They confuse the "data"
they have on things with the things themselves, not to mention people -- same
noobs doing the same shit, different day.

------
jshowa3
Keep the karma points at 666 for humorous effect please.

------
auslander
Stop whining that Ad company collects data, it is in DNA. Just put some effort
and un-google yourself.

There is no free cheese (services, apps).

------
northerdome
Honestly tired of Europe pretending like they are so high and mighty for
flagging tech companies for "privacy violations." Frankly it's insulting to
say that adults cannot decide for themselves how they want their data used. At
this point, users know if you turn on Google tracks you. It is worth it to
many for the convenience of quality results Google delivers. If it isn't turn
it off. But to say it is Google's fault is nonsense.

~~~
AlexandrB
This is comical. I try _really_ hard to keep Google from tracking me. I use
DDG, FastMail, iOS, have pseudonymous accounts for logging into Youtube. But I
know Google still has a pile of information on me through reCaptcha, trackers
on various web sites (Google analytics for starters) and services that use the
Google Maps API. So I'm left with the nagging sense that I'm still being
tracked by Google, no matter what I do. There is _no real choice_ available.
Google _will_ track you in some way, your "decisions as an adult" be damned.

~~~
eckza
It doesn't even matter anymore if they can tie your actions to your identity,
so long as they can tie your actions to the information that they choose to
let you consume.

