
Hello, World - coder2222
http://hello-world.io/hello-world/
======
leothekim
So this guy:

\- Changed his major overnight from whatever it was to computer science after
writing a Hello, World program

\- Left "so-called higher education" to work at a real-life job "without even
thinking about it twice"

\- Quit real-life job to be a bartender and chef

\- Quit doing that after getting girlfriend pregnant to 'go back to the "real
world" to get a job'

\- Quit that to build a house and work on a farm

Every life event he describes here is a movement to extremes out of
frustration or anxiety from what he was currently doing. I'm sure there's much
more to this story, but if anything, this is an example of how peace of mind
can't be found on either ends of a see-saw.

~~~
jakejake
I think this is the result of the relative ease of getting programming work
and good salaries. It attracts a lot of people who are not really in it for
the love. Some of those people are going to feel like their soul is being
sucked out. This guy is one of them which explains his extreme reactions.

I personally would rather work at the shittiest programming job than go out
and work on a farm. But that's just me.

~~~
jofer
While I agree that programming attracts a lot of people that aren't in it for
the love of the craft, I disagree with most of your sentiment. I see a
creative person who struggles with having to focus on someone else's agenda.

Most non-developers see programming as tedious, mind-numbing work that
involves zero creativity.

Most people who have never worked on a small farm or built a
table/shed/house/whatever think of the manual labor as tedious, mind-numbing
work that involves zero creativity.

Both working on a farm and programming are surprisingly creative professions.
I grew up on a farm, and farming requires a love of creating and building and
an incredible amount of creativity. ("Big agriculture" is a bit different. I'm
referring mostly to single-family operations, though many of those are quite
large.)

In both, you have to love building things from the ground up. You have to be
willing to get your hands dirty and put up with occasional tedium, be it
fixing a particularly annoying corner-case or riding a tractor for 12 hours.

In both, you have to solve complex problems with limited resources under time
pressure. (The things I've seen my grandfather fabricate or fix with random
broken junk and an arc welder are simply mind-blowing.)

Most farmers I know embody the "hacker culture" more than most self-proclaimed
"hackers" I know.

I'd argue that going back and forth is less of an extreme than you'd think.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
>Both working on a farm and programming are surprisingly creative professions.

For all the shit rural culture gets around here, I'm usually impressed by the
ingenuity of its homegrown hacker-like culture. I sometimes get frustrated
with my overly automated urban life. Apartment/condo living with a low
maintenance car/appliances/technology and a worklife where I'm shuttled to and
from via public transportation doesn't leave a lot of room for fun little
hacks or impromptu solutions. The room that's left is often trivial gimmicks
like tying something to tasker or messing around with whatever platform or
language is hot right now.

Then I bought a fixer-upper house. As frustrating as this can be sometimes,
there's just a great rewarding feeling of learning new things, fixing things,
adding value to your home, etc. Real life hacking that isn't servos or screens
is surprisingly rewarding. A small farm must be this x100.

~~~
agentultra
I bought a century-old house and have already learned tiling and simple
plumbing jobs with ABS. It has already infected my brain so much that when I
need a break I can go to my basement and flip on my wood lathe and make a new
pen or something when I get frustrated. Then I can come back and solve my
computing problem with a clear mind.

As much as I love programming sometimes it's play that's most important. You
need to gather fresh ideas from the world around you. It can be isolating to
be stuck in the rut of progress and innovation that is so endemic to our
culture. Learning to fix, build, and create things that I depend on is worth
investing in; even if it doing so isn't rational.

I could have simply called a contractor to re-tile my floor and they probably
would have done it in less time and for less money than it cost me to take the
time off work and do it myself. But I learned how to do it on my own. It hurt,
it took a long time, I screwed up a bunch. But I walk on that floor everyday
and my family loves it. It makes me proud and happy and I think I did a fairly
good job. It'll last for decades. The code I wrote last week will probably not
even compile in a decade.

------
Demiurge
This article is very uplifting and easy to empathize with. However, I can only
hope he ends up as happy as he might think he will. I've done farming when I
was young as well as some manual labor jobs. It's not fun, you sweat a lot,
your back hurts, the sunlight burns, at the end of the day you are physically
burnt out so much that you can't actually think. I am much more happy to be
closing tickets that are undoing previous tickets, while sipping white
chocolate mocha. Good luck with everything :)

~~~
dougk16
I had sort of the opposite experience. I moved furniture for a number of
years...manual labor at its finest. I put on 10 pounds of muscle, melted any
extra fat from my body, slept like a baby every night, and had no back
problems compared to slumping in a chair all day. It was certainly hard work,
but I look back on it with a simple fondness that I can't conjure for all my
past office jobs. All I see is this weird fluorescent limbo in my emotional
memory despite all the interesting software I've worked on.

~~~
Demiurge
Since I've done cleaning, not moving, I think I can still suppose that it is
quite different than farm work. I can see how it's physically hard, but I
think I would actually prefer moving. When I move heavy stuff, and I moved
probably 10 times, I have a whole routine for picking stuff up correctly, and
it's kind of like squats. Anyway, I think farming might have actually given
you a more visceral experience than moving. In general, I think the hardest
things we used to do when growing up are our brightest memories. For many
people I know from Russia, it is the army.

The point I'm trying to make is that our experiences are complicated and are a
combination of many circumstances. Programming is certainly more abstract and
hard to remember as an overcoming experience, but it is what you make of it,
and what you want to make of it in the future. If you ended up in software,
there must be a reason for it, and hopefully it's more than just pay. I'm an
introvert, I've always loved reading, programming, and abstract tasks, so I am
happy. Maybe for you, programming is not as interesting as being social,
physical, traveling.

Maybe the author is more like you than me, in which case, great. To each their
own!

------
kylec

        You take an incredibly advanced and complex programming language,
        and dumb it down to the absolute bare essentials in order to embark
        on the journey of learning a new system.
    

The purpose of the "Hello, World!" program, at least as I've understood it, is
to make sure that you can actually get code running with whatever language,
frameworks, and build process you have. Printing out a simple phrase is
sufficient to demonstrate that that all works and that you can start making
more complicated things.

~~~
Cyph0n
If we're talking about the modern purpose of a "Hello, world!" program, then I
agree. However, at the time the idea was originated, and I'm sure for a good
time afterwards, build processes and frameworks weren't as mainstream as they
are today. Therefore the function of a "Hello, world!" program was simply to
test out the basic features of the language. That's the way I see it.

~~~
mayoff
The idea of the “hello world” program was promulgated by Kernighan and Ritchie
in “The C Programming Language”, and they saw it the way kylec does. Quoting
“The C Programming Language, Second Edition”:

“This is the big hurdle; to leap over it you have to be able to create the
program text somewhere, compile it successfully, load it, run it, and find out
where your output went. With these mechanical details mastered, everything
else is comparatively easy.”

(I got rid of my first edition years ago but as I recall it described the
purpose of the program pretty much the same way.)

~~~
Cyph0n
Thanks for the reference.

------
jwmoz
This rings true. I'm 30, have a well paid programming job, but I just don't
care that much about it anymore. I used to be so passionate and enthusiastic.
But now I feel like there's more to life than banging out code.

Unfortunately there's not much else I know other than the internet and the
fact it's currently making me a lot more money than 95% of my friends. So that
leaves me ultimately disenchanted with nowhere to go.

~~~
chucksmash
With money comes options. I think by default, the option most 30 years choose
is to continue living paycheck to paycheck, but to do so in a more extravagant
manner.

If you aren't already, consider downsizing, paying off your debts and saving
an aggressive percentage of your income. It won't make much of a difference in
the short term but you are buying yourself more options down the road. If you
can put $3,000 a month away from now until 45 for instance, an 8% annual rate
of return would put you at a cool one million in cash on hand. At least if you
do that your current unfulfilling job is moving you in the right direction
rather than just keeping you afloat in a nice apartment with a nice car.

(That's not to say that you should stay in an unfulfilling job forever - just
that you should make hay while the sun is shining).

~~~
amyjess
Honestly, I'd rather just enjoy my life now than live like a monk until I'm
older.

I'd rather have fun while my body is still in good condition. Besides, I could
always get hit by a bus while I'm still saving money, and then it'd have all
been for nought.

Living paycheck to paycheck in an extravagant manner is my ideal lifestyle,
really.

Besides, I tried that whole "delaying happiness" thing. I'm transgender, and I
didn't begin transition until just before I turned 29. Waiting so long was the
single biggest mistake of my life. It wasn't until I was almost 30 that I
finally had a face that didn't make me want to drive my fist through the
mirror. I could have had that sooner, but I was stupid enough to keep putting
it off and putting it off. I don't think words can possibly describe the
depths of my grief over having wasted my youth living as the wrong gender. I
cry myself to sleep almost every night, and I've contemplated suicide multiple
times. No, I'm not wasting any more of my life sitting around and waiting.

------
lawl
> I am burnt out on having a “40 hour” work week that actually occupies the
> majority of my mental time.

This really resonated with me. I can't just stop thinking about this stuff
just because I'm at lunch or at home if I'm working on a hard problem. But I
don't get paid for that time.

~~~
asimjalis
And yet, is that so bad?

~~~
dagw
It is when it interferes with stuff you actually care about. Like when I'm
supposed be having family dinner or playing with my daughter and I realize
instead I've just spent the past several minutes staring into the distance
thinking about a work problem.

Sometimes I really envy people who never get the urge to work (either actually
or mentally) on work after leaving the office at 5 pm.

~~~
shepardrtc
I've learned to accept that work should only be a certain percentage of your
life. Occasionally it can bleed over, sure, but unless you want it to be 100%
then you need to drop it and think about other things. Maybe I'm just lazy,
but when I'm with other things I care about - especially people - then work
can kiss my ass :)

~~~
dagw
You don't have to convince me...it's my brain you need to talk to :)

I've gotten very good at sticking to a 40 hour work week and haven't worked a
weekend in over a year. I manage to leave the office before 6 pm at least 9
days out of 10. The 'problem' is that once someone dumps an interesting math
or programming problem in my brain then it takes over everything and I can't
let go of it.

------
glenntzke
_How did you get back to the software industry so easily after a long industry
break working as a bartender..._

I would like to read the response to this question. I think there are many
software engineers out there who would like to take a break from office and/or
coding jobs to work _simply_ – be it bartending, woodworking, volunteering –
using their hands and interacting with a diverse community of humans.

As someone who has interviewed many candidates for coding positions, I always
give attention to those who have ventured out of the field and ask for insight
into those experiences.

 _Note: this is a bit of a cross-post since I commented on the article, too_

~~~
nether
Bartending is often brought up as some accessible, social occupation for
taking a break from the office. The truth is for men it's extremely hard to
find a bartending job unless you're very good looking and have some desirable
personality traits (you get along with everyone, can easily make small talk)
honed with years of good social skills. Bartending school helps a little bit,
connections help far more. But it's not as easy as becoming a server, it's a
position with a fair amount of responsibility and plenty of eager candidates
who think it sounds fun.

------
chuhnk
The tech industry for the majority attracts like minded people. We tend to
have an all on our nothing mentality. We don't do it on purpose, it's just how
we're wired. We work endlessly, hours upon hours, and at some point it starts
to take its toll. The mental burn becomes too much, it wears on you.
Eventually there is only one option, to walk away, for some time at least. I
wish we were able to find balance. I've been doing this for close to a decade
now, maybe not as long as some, but I've hit burnout and had to walk away.
Upon my return I vowed never to get there again, I'm not so sure I was able to
keep that promise. Maybe these are things we learn through time and
experience. Or perhaps its subject to the way in which we lead the rest of our
life.

~~~
gmfawcett
Walking away or burning out isn't an inevitable outcome. We are all capable of
learning new behaviours. It's a learnable skill to notice when you're starting
to burn out, and then to take a step back, rest, and correct your behaviour.

Sometimes we have to remind ourselves (and our teams, and our managers) that,
in spite of deadline pressures, software development is often more like a
marathon than a sprint. Long-distance effort requires personal changes in
goal-setting, planning, preparation, and ongoing practice --- all of which can
be learned.

Health care professionals have a very high burnout rate, and to address this,
"self care" is often stressed in their educational programs. Maybe this should
be incorporated into software development education as well.

------
shepardrtc
I love technology and computers, but I found a job that doesn't require me to
be thinking about things non-stop. I work less than 40 hours a week (even
though I'm salaried), but I still work in my field of choice. It doesn't
stress me out. Do I make less than the average computer guy? Maybe a little
bit. But hey, its one less massive thing to worry about. I can go home and not
think about it. Instead, I can think about side projects and other fun things.

Don't let yourself get burned out so much from your current job that you end
up hating your field. Its what you're good at, right? Use that skill to do
good things. Driving yourself crazy shouldn't be one of them.

~~~
mariodiana
> I found a job that doesn't require me to be thinking about things non-stop.

Where?

~~~
shepardrtc
Florida. Pay isn't like SF or NYC, but the cost of living is really low.

------
chaqke
After years of working as a programmer, I also find something extremely
satisfying about doing physical labor.

When someone asks me how close my project is to done, I often say "about
half", or "it'll take a few more days". Is it 52% done? 59% done? 43% done?
Will I run into some complication tomorrow and realize I'm 23% done?

When I have 25 rebar to pound into the ground, and 10 are already there, I
know it's 40% done. I know that in about double that amount of time, it will
be near 100% done. There's no question of if I am about to run into a
complication that will set me back 20%.

More complicated construction can certainly lead to the same situations as
programming, but sometimes simple tasks are really satisfying to a mind always
dealing with new things. Variety is the spice of life.

------
jcadam
I envy people who can simply walk away from a career like this. As the single
source of income for a family of 5, I will be slinging code for The Man for
years to come.

I started programming shortly after learning to read, so it's not something
I'll ever give up totally -- I do find side projects help in alleviating the
ennui somewhat (given that you can at least challenge yourself, rather than
solving the same problems over and over and over and over.... ).

~~~
bengali3
yeah, i'm trying to figure out how to "be your own The Man" \- its just a
different problem to solve. easier said than done but we like hard problems,
right? I've not solved it yet so let me know when you do. currently early 30s,
family of 4, Boston

Current Objective:

Write a function that creates HTML that generates webpage views and prompts
for creditcard numbers. Use monthly account deposits as metric to optimize
performance.

FYI Rob rocks - see [http://startupbook.net/](http://startupbook.net/)

------
vegancap
This seems the natural progression for programmers now. 10 year slog of hope
decaying; relatively monotonous work, then a sudden urge to do something
antithetical in pursuit of happiness. I guess I'll be in a log cabin in
Iceland in 5 years time!

~~~
grubles
It seems the author of the article had spent a lot of time in a windowless,
fluorescent-lit room. No wonder the urge to be outside is so great for them.

~~~
vegancap
Yeah I can certainly see why he felt that way!

------
chrisdevereux
As a side note, 'Hello world' is a fantastic thing to write on the card when
one of your co-workers has a kid.

------
Zikes
The important thing is to do work that you find fulfilling, whether that be
code or crops.

Best of luck on your journey.

------
Bahamut
One of my friends got similarly burnt out of 10 years of coding - he left
software engineering for teaching English to kids in Vietnam.

Everyone's desires in a career/life are different. We also are wired
differently. For me, I would like to become wealthy enough to live comfortably
& support my friends, financially & coding-wise, in their endeavors (many of
them are musicians)

~~~
magic_beans
10 years of ANYTHING will burn out a certain type of person.

------
mikecmpbll
Programmers aren't the only people that have existential thoughts about what
they devote their time, energy, and ultimately life to.

If the author thinks there's something fundamentally more "worthy" about
farming than software development, he doesn't bother making that point with
any great detail. I got nothing from this story.

------
real_ty_sucks
Interesting, at 32 and already deciding this was it for you regarding
programming where it was first a passion. Well, guess it's about what makes
you happy. See you in a few years (if that) for yet another adventure, stop
seeking greener pastures, it's all a lie.

------
danielbln
Yikes, the banner picture on that page is a whopping 1.9MB in size. Crush your
pngs or use JPG, kids.

------
felix
Today, I will leave behind the digital world that changed me from human to
robot, I will begin building a tiny home and I will commemorate almost getting
down to this honest days work by blogging about my new-experience-to-be
working the soil.

~~~
htor
I sense dark sarcasm hidden in this message.

------
amyjess
I'm happy that OP found what he wants, but honestly... I'm actively repulsed
by the idea of living a life like the one OP is starting.

I'm close to OP's age (I'm 30; he's 32), and the idea of working on a farm,
doing manual labor, and raising a kid is like living hell to me.

To me, the ideal job is one that involved having 16 terminals open, and I'd
rather work in an office than in any other environment.

To each their own, I guess. OP can do what he wants, and I'm enjoying being a
childfree lesbian who slings code, happily works a white-collar job, and eats,
sleeps, and breathes technology.

------
icebraining
Well, it's certainly a more constructive reaction than buying a fancy car.

~~~
psykovsky
Depends on what one does with the car, I guess...

------
icebraining
Coral cache, for those having problems: [http://hello-world.io.nyud.net/hello-
world/](http://hello-world.io.nyud.net/hello-world/)

------
d2ncal
I agree with the sentiment, but how's he going to pay the bills for rent,
school, car, etc? A lot of people work on jobs they don't like to pay bills.
Is he not going to have a place to stay? May be his girlfriend has enough
income that he can pursue hobbies while she works A 'proper' job? There is a
minimum you need to make to live a comfortable life and not rely on government
to help ends meet.

------
probably_wrong
Maybe I'm just cynical, but I feel this article plugs very well into another
article I read this month: "What nobody told me about small farming: I can’t
make a living"[1].

[1]
[http://www.salon.com/2015/02/10/what_nobody_told_me_about_sm...](http://www.salon.com/2015/02/10/what_nobody_told_me_about_small_farming_i_cant_make_a_living/)

~~~
raisedbyninjas
Yeah, farming is not gardening++ If you're raising livestock, you don't take
week-long vacations because your herd would die. There is always a lot of work
to do so the work schedule is like perpetual crunch time but with less stress.
Less stress if you haven't been facing drought or pest or fungus outbreak for
the past few years. The room for niche farmers is much smaller than the tech
world. There are not too many clever startup farmers that disrupt the food
world. Small farmers really either just compete against mega-farms to produce
cheaply and efficiently or cater to affluent quality-driven customers.

------
personlurking
> "Today, however, I sit here writing this post as a 32-year-old man
> with...eyes that have only been open to the digital world."

Wow, I'm basically his age and spent almost half my life in the US not online.
I was climbing trees, chasing rabbits, shooting bows & arrows, and jumping off
small cliffs.

Other than that, sounds like a good plan. Wish you the best

------
jhull
Good for you man. I took a year to do the same thing and travel.

The first step for me was creating a blog and writing a similar post,
reflecting on what I had been doing and what was about to change. I also wrote
down a lot of things I wanted to do in that next year. While I only did a
handful of them, its great to look back now a few years later and see where my
mindset was.

It is also great to reflect on the things that I did do on that year off that
were so amazing, the things which I didn't write down, because they weren't
even things I could imagine. That's the best part, realizing you've broadened
your horizons.

:a toast: Wishing you do many unimaginable things.

------
kf5jak
As many others, I often get frustrated when working through different
problems. But I find taking a break and doing 'outdoor activities' such as
backpacking and rock climbing gives my mentality a break. Afterwards, when I
go back to tackling my problem, I feel refreshed. However, I don't only do
this when I get frustrated with a problem, but after I complete one too.

Taking breaks to 'get back in touch with nature' while doing something so
technically involved tremendously helps my workflow.

------
drderidder
I think it shows how important it is to maintain a healthy work-life balance.
Hopefully he'll find a way to combine his technical aptitude with his new
lifestyle in a symbiotic way.

------
trunkation
Is it possible to pick up programming skills by studying computer science
books? In particular I enjoy reading SICP because of its mathematical nature.
So far I have been using SICP like a math book without any REPL. Just pen and
paper problem solving. But I was told that won't teach you any useful coding
skills. Just learning how to code seems to be an unbelievably painful task.
Are there any math oriented compsci books that double as coding boot camp?
Thanks.

~~~
jnbiche
If you understand the math, give coding a try. I suspect you'll find it easier
than you're anticipating it will be.

The REPL is an incredibly user-friendly way to learn to program. Try it. I'm
surprised you like math and don't want to use the REPL, since the REPL in many
ways resembles a powerful calculator (and can be used as such)

If you really like the math approach, and grow to appreciate the REPL, give
"The Haskell Road to Logic, Maths and Programming" by Doets and van Eijck a
try.

But no, you can't pick up programming just from reading books without
attempting to program. You could pick up a good bit of computer science like
that, but not programming. Programming must be experienced.

------
DonHopkins
"When a programmer picks up a new language it is customary to write the
timeless Hello World application to ease your way into a daunting codebase
with an overly-simplistic view of its syntax."

Who has actually written a "hello world" program to ease their way into a
daunting codebase? Anyone? I haven't.

~~~
meric
Writing a new URL route in an existing web application, to serve hello world,
yes.

------
nitinics
Programmers can easily resonate to this blog. But I think this is the moment
of truth of transition from a programmer to an engineer where you realize you
are better off creating something on your own from the ground up than working
for someone else's creation.

------
mcgaffin
Good luck. I would really like to read a book about your transition in a
couple of years.

------
helicase
As someone who's venturing back into the CS field after leaving it for 2 years
to "pursue other interests," this post makes me doubt my decisions.

------
bpg_92
Can anyone suggest a book based on something like this? I am a programmer
myself and this kind of read felt really enjoyable.

------
Ollinson
Before enlightenment, chop wood carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood
carry water.

------
grayfox
"Wherever you go, there you are."

------
xytop
What a waste of good domain name..

------
JeffDavidson
good luck with the tiny house and farm!

------
crododile
I'm most impressed by the domain name

------
atriix
wall of text _scroll_ _scroll_ _close tab_

------
subudeepak
foo-bar dear friend.

Lorem ipsum :)

------
jusuchin
Nice 500 error...

~~~
noobermin
And not a google cache anywhere to show for it.

------
shogun21
Error establishing a database connection

------
scottmwinters
"burning out" only happens when you dont add fuel to the flame. If someone is
passionate about what they are working on, they wont get burnt out. I can
easily see getting burnt out on one technology or another, but the more code,
the more I want to code and learn more.

If someone programs at the same company doing the same tasks for years until
they hate programming, then I really feel no sympathy. Get a different
job...its easy. Do side projects...even easier. Adding fuel is easy. Letting
it die takes effort.

~~~
dismal2
This is wrong, you don't understand how "burnout" works.

------
otakucode
Weirdo.

I'm just going to quit my job and give freelancing/consulting a shot. In the
middle of West Virginia. I don't think I could ever leave programming. I
started around 9 years old, I've already been through my slump and come out
the other side more interested than ever. In programming, that is. The way
most companies handle software development, though? That is certainly
downright terrible. My knowledge of history and economics encourages me that
this is probably a somewhat temporary situation, though. Companies are
disemboweling themselves with astonishing fervor while the infrastructure
their employees need to serve customers directly is becoming ubiquitous. It
should be fun to watch.

~~~
nlh
Name-calling doesn't really add to the conversation.

~~~
otakucode
I don't really consider 'weirdo' to be name-calling... It wasn't meant as an
insult, just an observation that he's different from me. Not worse, just
different.

