
The Men Who Stare At Screens (why going to the gym might not be good enough) - kscaldef
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/14/phys-ed-the-men-who-stare-at-screens/?hp
======
carbocation
This is a warning sign: "Men who spent more than 23 hours a week watching TV
and sitting in their cars (as passengers or as drivers) had a 64 percent
greater chance of dying from heart disease than those who sat for 11 hours a
week or less."

23 hours per week vs 11 hours per week? I call this a warning sign because it
screams of post-hoc analysis. Unless they then used these as pre-specified
cutoffs for later studies, I would be very cautious not to overinterpret.

~~~
gjm11
It's always wise to suspect that sort of data-mining, but if (as I think but
am not sure) your point is that they look like arbitrary numbers, suggesting
that they were chosen by the researchers to give a good-sounding result --
well, let's express them differently: "24 hours or more" versus "less than 12
hours". It sounds a lot more canonical that way :-).

... Except that, looking at the abstract (there's a link in the NYT article),
I find this: "Men who reported >10 h/wk riding in a car or >23 h/wk of
combined sedentary behavior had 82% and 64% greater risk of dying from CVD
than those who reported <4 or <11 h/wk, respectively." [I've changed one
unhelpful bit of notation.] So, looks like data mining after all.

On the other other hand, as well as those (possibly cherry-picked) thresholds
there are statements like "After age adjustment, time riding in a car and
combined time spent in these two sedentary behaviors were positively (P(trend)
< 0.001) associated with CVD death." which suggests something less ad hoc.

~~~
phe
From the NYTimes article:

What was unexpected was that many of the men who sat long hours and developed
heart problems also exercised. Quite a few of them said they did so regularly
and led active lifestyles. The men worked out, then sat in cars and in front
of televisions for hours, and their risk of heart disease soared, despite the
exercise. Their workouts did not counteract the ill effects of sitting.

From the journal abstract:

In addition, high levels of physical activity were related to notably lower
rates of CVD death even in the presence of high levels of sedentary behavior.

If anybody wants to look at the article, I have access to the paper.

------
lhorie
It'd be interesting to see how much gym workout is equivalent in benefits to
the frequent light-intensity activities recommended in the article.

There are some pretty simple ways to add extra light physical activity to your
daily routine. I tend to drink a lot of water, which means I need to go fill
my bottle a few times a day and walk to the washroom more often than I would
otherwise.

There was also a TED talk about communities in Italy and Japan with long
lifespans and lifestyles that involved lots of minor activities

~~~
kscaldef
For me it brought to mind the discussions a few weeks ago about standing
desks. Would simply working standing be sufficient?

~~~
diN0bot
Hmmm, except it's "common" knowledge in the waitress industry that being busy
enough to have to walk around and do things frequently is _way_ better than
slow days when there's lots of standing around. standing around wreaks havoc
on joints and stuff.

so....if you have a standing desk maybe the point is that you walk around
more, whereas when one sits one is less inclined to get up for a minute walk.

~~~
TheBurningOr
I'm finding with my standing desk that having good shoe support and a good
soft carpet/pad to stand on is quite important for that very reason. It does
help me to walk around more. I tend to move around quite a bit more than when
I was just sitting.

~~~
eru
Have you tried using your desk barefooted?

~~~
pavel_lishin
Might be hard in an office environment.

~~~
eru
Depends on your company. I am alternating going barefooted and using the
Vibram Fivefingers where I work.

------
chaostheory
There is one really large potential problem with this study: it is just a big
survey. Often there is a discrepancy between what people say and what people
actually do. What if many of the individuals polled simply lied, told half
truths, or were mistaken about their times? It's already been proven that men
lie about their incomes, why doesn't this extend to an active lifestyle as
well?

For me to really take this seriously, these people need to be observed in some
non-intrusive way. We do have the technology now, or so I think.

~~~
enjo
While I'm not an expert on these type of studies, I am married to one. I often
see these types of criticisms bantered about, but I'm fairly certain that
these researchers are MUCH more sophisticated in their controls than we give
them credit for.

There is an entire body of research dedicated to ascertaining the quality and
reliability of surveys, how surveys are delivered, and the conclusions that
can be drawn from them. In doing these studies those methodologies are
generally well understood (and clearly cited) as part of the paper itself.

While I know those of us who where educated in the 'hard' sciences (I'm a
physicist by training) find it hard to buy into these... I've been quite
impressed by how rigorous they really are.

I haven't read this particular study, so I may be way off base... but the fact
that the fundamentals of the study involved a survey do not make it bad or
invalid science (as long as the study was conducted properly that is).

~~~
joe_the_user
This isn't about how sophisticated researchers are. The limits to research
into real world human behavior are pretty much inherent in the complexity and
interrelatedness of said human behavior. Doing statistics is extremely hard
because behaviors and conditions correlate with a many things at once, making
the causal factor very hard to isolate.

There have been a number of clever and rather specific ways in which research
psychologists have gotten around these problems. But being an expert doesn't
make you superman or give you unlimited bag of tricks dealing with this
inherent difficulty.

One obvious way that the study might be flawed could be that the respondents
were more honest about how much TV they watched than about how much working-
out they did, so TV-watched actually correlated better with exercise level
than claimed level of exercise (and that's just _one_ of hundreds possible
problems).

IE, until we know some _specifics_ that researchers might have gotten around
untruthness in research based on only survey data, we're entirely justified in
being somewhat skeptical. "They're expert, they can do it" isn't enough.

------
mambodog
I've been thinking I'd like to get a standing workstation as it might
encourage me to move around more, and I believe that even just to be standing
most of the time is supposed to impact positively on heart health. Something
like this would be awesome (though I imagine, pricey):
<http://www.amesystem.com.au/activdesk/>

~~~
ekanes
I love mine and highly recommend doing it. You can do it VERY cheaply too. I
went with 2 Stanley FatMax telescopic sawhorses and a door.

Non-affiliate link: [http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-11031-Telescopic-Plastic-
Sawho...](http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-11031-Telescopic-Plastic-
Sawhorse/dp/B000MIVTJG/)

Horribly outdated but accurate pic:
[http://icecreamforeveryone.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/img_0...](http://icecreamforeveryone.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/img_0028.jpg?w=450&h=337)

I feel more creative, have more energy throughout the day and my back feels
stronger.

~~~
ido
Don't you bump your head on that low ceiling all the time?

~~~
ekanes
It's an outdated pic, I quickly moved downstairs and took over our master
bedroom. We sleep in the attic now.

~~~
tomhogans
I'm surprised that sleeping is still a group activity for you after that.

------
dialtone
Why do these studies always avoid to talk about the intensity of the excercise
for each subject. There's plenty of people at my gym that I've never seen
sweating.

------
jsharpe
I wonder if this is because sitting and watching TV tends to correlate with
poor diet (lots of snacking on unhealthy things while on the couch), whereas
it's quite difficult to eat bad stuff while moving around all the time.

~~~
starkfist
When I was a kid I used to skateboard around town about 8 hours a day, moving
around all the time. I ate nothing but junk food during while doing this. What
was I going to do, steam some brussell sprouts in the parking lot? It's more
like existing in America tends to correlate with poor diet.

~~~
c1sc0
I found just having access to high-quality ingredients at a reasonable price
to be difficult in the US. More difficult than in Europe at least & waaay more
difficult than in Asia (ok, one datapoint: China).

~~~
gommm
Having lived in the US, Europe and Japan and currently living China, I'd say
that yes it's very difficult in the US, but in China it's rather difficult
too... For example, I find it very hard to find good quality fish to cook
(most of the fish you get here have a strange test I find)...

It's easy to find organic produce here but it's not that cheap (at least
compared to Europe), and I'm not exactly sure if I trust it as much as I trust
organic produce in Europe or Japan...

That said from my 6 month experience living in Rochester, US is much worse...
(and don't talk to me about university "food" there)

------
solson
I work at Ergotron, and we are building solutions to this very problem,
affordable sit/stand workstations. There are numerous studies that appear to
indicate our bodies are not built to sit for prolonged periods of time.
Sitting may in fact be killing us early. Check out <http://juststand.org>

------
powrtoch
Do I get bonus METs if my legs never, ever, ever stop bouncing the entire time
I'm at my desk?

~~~
pavel_lishin
I do remember reading that being twitchy can help you stay healthier, and lose
weight. It all burns calories.

~~~
chadmalik
I recall another study that figured out people who are the gym who flex in the
mirror all the time (hate those guys!) get more fit. That probably applies to
desk jockeys as well.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Awesome. I'll pick up a mirror tonight, and start flexing into it while I
work, shirtless.

I'm sure the coworkers won't mind.

~~~
trafficlight
Show them this study and tell them the solution is to flex in a mirror while
you work. The goal is to get all of your coworkers doing this. Then you'll
really have something.

------
palish
It's satisfying to know that I've avoided wasting my time at the gym.

Instead, I go through life accepting the fact that I'll be dead by 80. I find
it both motivating and relaxing. Instead of literally wasting 20% of my time
at the gym, I can instead waste it in much more interesting ways: on games,
programming, TV shows. I believe this will result in an overall healthier
mental lifestyle. And since my body maintains a constant weight of ~215
pounds, and since I have no use for physical stamina or strong muscles, I
literally have no use for the gym.

------
rfugger
Try sitting on an exercise ball. That gets you plenty of muscle contractions
just balancing on it.

~~~
dgallagher
A Knee* Chair is another cool way to sit and always be "in movement". Due to
their design, you're forced to reposition yourself every few minutes or so.

*Technically you don't sit on your knees. You sit on your bottom (bearing most of the weight), and use your shins for balance.

------
c1sc0
What is it about improving health that brings out the most ridiculous concepts
in fitness tool designs? This was advertised next to the article:
<http://i.imgur.com/PXsxO.png>

What makes people want to spend money on tools like this when the greatest
fitness tool is the human body itself?

~~~
pavel_lishin
I'm fairly sure that 90% of those wacky "exercise" ideas - like the hip-swivel
chair - were created on a whim, or as a bet between two businessmen.

"Alright, we each have a month to come up with, manufacture, and advertise the
most retarded exercise tool we can come up with. After six months of sales,
we'll determine the winner by units shipped. Loser has to do a line of blow
off the winner's genitals."

~~~
LordLandon
Well, that explains the Shake Weight..

------
davidw
Huh, maybe I should just go into the tour guide business. I'd get lots of
walking around here, probably eat better, and spend less time dicking around
with bullshit code. I wonder what sort of unpleasant grief annoying tourists
might cause... :-)

~~~
chadgeidel
I have no idea, but I imagine it this way. Your users are incentivised to talk
to you on a regular basis. You are never going to see a tourist again. If you
hate users, you will LOATHE tourists.

~~~
davidw
I like talking with people, actually. I could definitely see walking around
talking for half a day - it'd be much healthier than sitting on my ass staring
at crappy code.

------
bdlang
The study mentions nothing of eating habits; are we to believe each man (in
1982 no less) was eating a very healthy diet and all other factors were taken
into consideration with regard to their lifestyle? For all we know they sat in
front of the TV with a big bowl of ice cream, or ate a heavy meal in the
evening before sitting down to relax. What about stressors, work or otherwise?
Meh.

------
awongh
I wonder if this applies to people who have nervous energy and move around
when at their desks... I've read about studies that correlate your amount of
nervous energy (tapping your toes, etc.) to your likelyhood of being obese.

Maybe they're talking about movement on a different scale.

------
marknutter
This smacks of the kind of news you see on The Today Show. I wouldn't be
alarmed by this, we're a pretty adaptable species. Just stay active in your
free time and you'll be fine. Sheesh.

------
sliverstorm
Hmm... I wonder if this has any implications when it comes to school?

~~~
solson
Absolutely it does...

1\. The sit and watch - lecture model needs to die. 2\. Students need to be
given the option of sitting or standing in class and be allowed to alternate.
3\. Punishments like sitting in detention, losing recess, or timeouts, should
be replaced with activities like squats, sports, running laps, or simply
walking.

The wisdom of taking a hyperactive kid's recess away has always baffled me.

~~~
Ardit20
Yes because people have sat in desks in school only since the 1990s and we do
not know whether they die earlier or not, so we must trust some study.

They have been doing it for centuries and everybody is fine!.

~~~
galdosd
"Everybody is fine", huh?

I'm not sure you can make that claim so casually.

------
ck2
_Regular workout sessions do not appear to fully undo the effects of prolonged
sitting_

Well there go my health insurance rates (if I could afford insurance).

------
thomasfl
So when are some hacker news hacker going to make an iPhone app that uses to
the gyro to track your movements through the day?

~~~
dpritchett
iPhone pedometer apps: [http://www.iphoneappsfinder.com/blog/15-best-
pedometer-appli...](http://www.iphoneappsfinder.com/blog/15-best-pedometer-
applications-for-iphone/)

------
quizbiz
Sitting all day is probably bad for you. But everything productive I do is on
the computer. How do I avoid sitting?

~~~
etal
Stand:
[http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/computerworkstations/positio...](http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/computerworkstations/positions.html)

It takes a little while to get used to it, but once you're there, standing all
day is just fine.

~~~
wesley
Sit AND stand: No position for a long time is ever good for you.

~~~
eru
You can stand and work around. You do not have to stand in the same position
all the time.

~~~
eru
Oops, "walk around".

------
fjabre
Wonder if drinking green tea helps to bring you back to 'normal'..

Who knows what to make of this.. It's not easy hearing that the profession
you've chosen puts you at greater risk for heart disease.

If this is true I bet it could be balanced by good diet. I also have a dog
which forces me to walk for at least 1-2 hours a day.

------
thomasfl
This code is hardly rocket science. It's looks more like hard manual labour.
But then again, so is also probably lot's of the code at bing and google to.

    
    
      my %holidays = (
        'mlk day' => undef,
        'martin luther king day' => undef,
        'martin luther kings birthday' => undef,
        'presidents day' => undef,
        'washingtons birthday' => undef,
        'memorial day' => undef,
        'independence day' => undef,
        'labor day' => undef,
        'columbus day' => undef,
        'veteranss day' => undef,
        'thanksgiving' => undef,
        'fathers day' => undef,
        'mothers day' => undef,
        'inauguration day' => undef,
        'ash wednesday' => undef,
        'shrove tuesday' => undef,
        'groundhog day' => undef,
        'saint patricks day' => undef,
        'easter' => undef,
        'earth day' => undef,
        'arbor day' => undef,
        'cinco de mayo' => undef,
        'st patricks day' => undef,
        'flag day' => undef,
        'rosh hashanah' => undef,
        'yom kippur' => undef,
        'halloween' => undef,
        'election day' => undef,
        'hanukkah' => undef,
        );

