
EU antitrust regulators say they are investigating Google's data collection - PretzelFisch
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-alphabet-antitrust-exclusive/exclusive-eu-antitrust-regulators-say-they-are-investigating-googles-data-collection-idUSKBN1Y40NX
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gator-io
I've always been amazed that very few organizations question why Google
Analytics is free. Sites are literally handing Google a list of targeted
visitors their competitors can advertise to.

~~~
nolok
Just to be super clear: Google Analytics is not free, the entry version with a
limited a visitors/visits it can logs per day is free, then you have to pay to
get the full version.

Delivering a quality free product to get companies to sign for the expansive
one when their needs increase is a very common marketing system, and allows to
keep control of the market despite being vastly out of price. Works for
desktop app, mobile app, web services, ... I say this as someone who once had
to sign for the full version for a web property I was working at.

This is a matter where people are quick to over react so let's be super clear:
I am NOT saying the limit is placed at a reasonable level, nor that companies
absolutely need to have the paid version and can't extrapolate enough from the
free version data (they absolutely can), nor that Google isn't majorly
benefitting in other way than full version sales (they do).

What I'm saying is that "the base version is free and the full version is
paid" is a very common thing that doesn't by itself mean anything nefarious is
taking place.

~~~
open-source-ux
_" that doesn't by itself mean anything nefarious is taking place"_

I don't believe that Google is intentionally doing nefarious things either,
but that doesn't mean we shouldn't subject them to close scrutiny over their
date collection practices. Whether Google Analytics (GA) is free or not is
beside the point. The free version of GA may limit what GA users see, but that
doesn't stop Google from capturing far more data than they expose.

This is a company that tracks users on an industrial-size scale that no other
online company can match. And yet despite that, most developers are more
likely to rush to Google's _defence_ rather than question those data
collection practices. (Does a multi-billion company with an army of lawyers
need developers to defend it?)

I've said this many times: the hypocrisy that runs through the programming
profession when it comes to online tracking really knows no end.

~~~
nolok
> this is a company that tracks users on an industrial-size scale that no
> other online company can match. And yet despite that, most developers are
> more likely to rush to Google's defence rather than question those data
> collection practices.

If that is what you read in my message, then you are projecting what you want
to see on what I actually said. Nothing I said defends Google on that front.

EVERYTHING in your post is completly out of scope of what I said in answer of
parent's post. What I said, is that just because some company does something
wrong doesn't mean everything that company does is wrong. Or in this case,
that while Google is obviously massively syphoning data on a gigantic scale,
NO analytics basic tier being free, by itself, isn't an element of wrongdoing.

If anything, your post proves my point, that when they believe they know the
end results people are quick to make up the narrative in between to reach it,
even if they need to throw the baby with the water too.

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dessant
> Google has said it uses data to better its services and that users can
> manage, delete and transfer their data at any time.

No, users cannot delete their personal data, unless they have a Google
account. Google collects an enormous amount of personal data from people
without a Google account, and offers no tools for controlling that data.

~~~
yabadabadoes
Even with a Google account, a great deal of data like analytics is not
associated or partly associated with the Google account.

In theory one would have to go to every website and request they report/purge
data from analytics, but Google provides no mechanism for websites to comply
with such a request.

~~~
asdfasgasdgasdg
I don't think one can request that even in theory. If the data is not
personally identifiable, then it is not owned by you (at least in my
understanding of gdpr and similar privacy regulations). "yabadadoes (or their
IP) visited the site" is your data. "someone from yabadabadoes country visited
the site" is not your data and it's not up to you to say what the site owner
does with that information.

~~~
yabadabadoes
A user has clientids and/or userids and Google seems to be capable of
connecting these back to learn things about users and sites. So what exactly
is personally identifiable is a secret..

As I see it Google has fallen into the false position that things they agree
not to do based on user settings is the same as not collecting and storing the
data necessary to do them. I don't think regulators will see this Google's
way.

~~~
asdfasgasdgasdg
If the analytics records aren't associated with those IDs, and can't be
reidentified due to protections like k-anonymity, I don't think it's relevant
that Google has other records that are subject to gdpr, and are handled
differently.

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dannyw
I hope part of this investigation revolves around AMP and Google's tracking
and analytics on AMP sites...

~~~
edgyquant
amp is so annoying. Just link to the sites no need to track (can't they just
do it with js) and then the number of people who then post them to Reddit or
Facebook because they copy the results link the whole thing is infuriating.

~~~
dastx
[https://addons.mozilla.org/en-
US/firefox/addon/amp2html/](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-
US/firefox/addon/amp2html/)

~~~
dessant
That's a great initiative, though we need a solution that does not load AMP
pages from Google before redirecting to the real site.

~~~
dmix
Changing Google's SERP inline I guess?

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Razengan
Somewhat related, a thing I found suspicious, though not surprising, the last
time I tried it:

Try Googling for how to block all Google Analytics and related services in
your Hosts file.

Does it seem harder to find a simple list of IP addresses + instructions than
it should be?

While Google Search results quality has gone down across the board in the last
3 or so years, it seemingly tries particularly hard to pretend it doesn’t
understand what you mean with queries like these.

~~~
anchpop
Why would Google put itself under insane risk from anti-anticompetitve
regulation and huge bad PR just to prevent a tiny minority of users from
blocking google analytics?

~~~
StuffedParrot
This is hardly unusual for them; they removed the ability to blacklist sites
from domains because people were blacklisting commercial sites.

~~~
Semaphor
Do you have any source for that? Otherwise, it’s just as much conjecture as
the other claim.

~~~
StuffedParrot
I recommend googling :)

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knolax
I wonder how long until we get an EU version of Google/Yandex/Baidu.

~~~
input_sh
You mean like Qwant (French) and Startpage (Dutch)?

~~~
ferongr
Quant only exists in order to receive all that sweet, sweet grant money.

~~~
anoncake
All for-profit companies only exist in order to receive that sweet, sweet
money.

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jokoon
I wonder if the GDPR had any effect, but I hope it will change things.
Annoying users is better than letting the whole data hoarding keep happening.

At least california introduced a bill, too.

I'm really curious where all of this will lead to. I wonder how many people
are informed that brexit and the trump election were carried by big data. I'm
also curious if Obama got help from those big data techniques, I remember he
used facebook, but I don't have details.

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telaelit
Finally. Google should be broken up, they have WAYYY too much power

~~~
AnthonyMouse
The problem with breaking them up is that the search engine is the whole
ballgame. Separating the search engine from, say, gmail would have negligible
benefit. It might even make things worse if the newly independent gmail
company started doing a lot of the scummy things free email providers
sometimes do to make a buck against everybody's existing gmail account.

What you really need isn't a breakup, it's some way to foster sustainable
competition for search.

~~~
hos234
Search engine can be broken up regionally and the regional versions allowed to
compete with each other globally. So Google France competes with Google
Germany competes with Google Spain etc. This happened with Ma Bell -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System)

~~~
ben_w
Would that work in this case? I’d expect that to function like a massive
multi-armed bandit test, but I’d assume (without any insider knowledge) that
Google already does that internally anyway?

Would it be “better” (given the regulatory goals) to order Google to do XYZ
and provide an audit trail to demonstrate compliance?

~~~
hos234
Problem is new issues will keep cropping up every 2 days. And govt regulators
have to keep reacting.

Putting pressure on Google requires seriously increasing competition.

Let the local units rebrand and compete against each other. Maybe even auction
them off to other big players. Whatever needs to be done to even the playing
field. Google need a nice kick in the ass for their own good health.

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MagnumPIG
Just now??

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goatinaboat
Yawn. They have been “investigating” for what, a decade now? But never take
any action and Google ignores them and becomes more egregious every day,
because they know this. Same with Google’s tax situation.

What happened to those GDPR fines of 4% of global turnover? Looked good on
paper but it’s an open secret now that the regulators have no teeth.

~~~
kryptiskt
EU has fined Google €8.2B so far. Google might not have gotten the hint yet,
but it's not for lack of trying.

~~~
tcd
Fines are the cost of doing business, you need to do more than that to see
meaningful change.

~~~
anoncake
What do you expect the EU to do, dissolving companies for the slightest
infraction without giving them the opportunity to change their behavior?

~~~
goatinaboat
I expect them to levy the 4% fine and if it’s not paid start arresting senior
executives. Instead they issue token fines and allow the companies to just
keep appealing them indefinitely. No wonder Google’s not taking these
complaints even vaguely seriously, why would they?

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cinquemb
At this point, why does the EU even bother with Google? What's stopping them
from just funding their own "Google" and forcing all their subjects to use
them?

~~~
petre
Because it's easier to fine US companies when they break/skirt the law. And EU
citizens can make their own choices, you know. Maybe I want to use Google
instead of 'EUgle' that would be censored by default under German law to
prevent hate speech.

~~~
Mirioron
As a European I wouldn't trust any European search engine either.

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disabled
I am a dual US|EU national. While I do not actually trust any search engine, I
still trust Qwant and Startpage (European search engines) over ones like
Google (US based). But, I almost always use DuckDuckGo.

I think of the Internet as a public utility. I think it needs to be regulated
as such.

~~~
petre
Qwant is using Bing. So much for being a genuine European search engine.

