
Ask HN: Who has gotten a job with absolutely no connections? - rdr
Hi, it seems like many hacker jobs are obtained via personal connections (either directly or indirectly), and that hit rates on applying online to job posts are pretty low (especially nowadays).<p>If you've gotten your current (or past) job without any prior connections, what kind of job was it and how hard was it to get?
======
twistedanimator
I have gotten my last 2 jobs with no connections whatsoever. Both were
software developer positions for languages/frameworks that I had no experience
with. My advice is to write a killer cover letter.

The cover letter is the most important part of any job search. In mine I
explained my side projects that I work on and my insatiable love of learning
new technologies. I was up front in both cover letters, stating that I had no
experience in the language they were hiring for, but I have a verifiable track
record of being a quick learner when it comes to technology.

~~~
bayareaguy
_The cover letter is the most important part of any job search_

I disagree. I think the most important parts of any job search are attitude
and aptitude. Some background: I started looking for a new job in early
February of this year after the company I previously worked for shut down. At
first I was worried that with the recession it might take a while to get new
work so I got very serious about my new "job" of finding a job. I found one 3
weeks later without any connections (via craigslist) and I'm pretty sure it
was because of the effort I put into:

\- ensuring my resume would appeal to the kind of people I wanted to work with

\- ranking and filtering position postings into categories based on how well
they matched the kind of work I enjoy, the kind of work I'm currently good at,
the salary I wanted, future opportunities and general working conditions

\- writing specific cover letters explaining my background, my understanding
of what the position required, why I wanted to do that job and what kinds of
things I would do when I started.

\- spending time preparing for interviews and studying things I believed it
would be worthwhile to demonstrate in person

\- ensuring my references were fully informed about my situation, understood
my view of the companies I was considering and were easy to contact by
potential employers without delay

When I started my search, I screened around 100 postings down into three
5-element lists (A/B/C) and sent a custom cover letter and resume to the top
10. This led to 4 interviews and 3 offers in the next 3 weeks and although I
had to turn down two of the offers, I've kept in regular contact with them and
have been asked to keep them in mind if my situation changes. I'm pretty
certain that every one of the things I mentioned above was essential in this
outcome.

Ironically for the past month I've been spending a few hours a week where I
work screening and ranking resumes, conducting telephone interviews and making
recommendations to our management. Although I'd prefer to be coding during
this time, I know from experience that I'll be much happier in the long run if
I help the company pick good people. So far I've been applying the same
criteria I would want applied to me and before I agreed to do any reviews I
made sure that my boss and our HR person agreed to:

\- 5 specific responsibilities for each position

\- 8 short questions we would send the candidate before we talk to them on the
phone

\- A 20 question, 45 minute written exam for in-person interviews.

Regardless of what their cover letter says, the first thing I look for is
_whether or not the candidate's experience and background is appropriate for
the job_. About 1/2 the candidates are immediately eliminated without a
thought. Then I look more closely at the details and read their cover letter
and assign a number from 1-3 for each responsibility indicating how well their
stated experience and goals match that responsibility and record the details
in a spreadsheet.

The top 1/3 of the candidates get selected for followup calls. When the call
is scheduled, the candidate is emailed the questions we'll cover related to
the responsibilities. Although technical in nature, none of the questions have
right or wrong answers. They are intended to give the candidate an opportunity
to demonstrate their ability to understand our company's goals and explain how
they would fit in. Although the phone interview is limited to 20 minutes and
candidates have to be clear and to the point, they are also offered the
opportunity to follow up with anything they would like to say in email
(although surprisingly few do so). So far only about 1/3 of the remaining
candidates have been asked to come in for the interview and written exam and
we've been pleased with all the ones that have.

------
JoelPM
All but one of my jobs I've gotten without any connections.

Out of college I worked for IBM. Initial contact was at an engineering job
expo. I had interviews on campus and then on site.

After that I submitted my resume to Xanga.com on a whim. I had a phone screen
and then an on site interview.

From there I got a job at a law firm where my wife worked (the only connection
based job I received).

Google found me via LinkedIn. I had two phone screens and an on site
interview.

A recruiter found me via LinkedIn looking to fill a position for some other
company. I told him I wasn't interested but from our exchange he picked up
that I would like to work closer to home. When an opportunity at OpenX came
along he contacted me again, and I did two phone interviews and then an on
site.

In my experience LinkedIn is a great way to have jobs find you. Being able to
interview well helps seal the deal - to do that you have to know your stuff
and be able to present it well.

------
nathanb
I got my current job--my first out of college--without any connections. It's a
kernel programming job. I got it because I was able to talk intelligently
about writing distributed systems and what a node-local kernel can do to
facilitate distributed user-space applications.

That said, never underestimate the power of connections. I got my first
internship because I "knew a guy who knew a guy". You never know when your
scoutmaster or soccer coach or parents' friend from church or whatever
unlikely acquaintance is going to end up working for (or founding!) the
company that can provide you your dream job.

~~~
azanar
"...never underestimate the power of connections..."

Avoid overestimating the power of them as well; don't always assume it is who
you know, or that who you know will make the experience better. When people
err, in my experience, they seem to err in the direction of overestimating.
They don't even bother to consider opportunities unless there is a connection
involved, and they ignore red-flags they discover along the recruitment path
simply because they have a connection there who downplays them. Often as not,
they end up unhappy, but suffer through it because their only out is through
more connections they don't yet have.

Sometimes, you have to look beyond the people you know.

------
abyssknight
I got my first job the hard way. I applied, and took whatever they would
offer. I pretty much said I'd work for nothing.

I was in college, had no experience, and knew very little. I needed an in, and
saw an ad in our Computer Science building. Emailed my resume, got a call,
interview etc. I met with the owner who told me to go home and learn PHP and
MySQL over the weekend. Did that, took a quick development test, and started
work the following week.

I made minimum wage for about a year before we (the other newbie and myself)
power played for a pay raise.

That job is what got me where I am today. We had to learn everything, be
everything and do everything from support, engineering, development on through
server admin and db schema design. I couldn't ask for a more rewarding first
job.

From there all of my jobs have been based on my experience. My first salaried
position I got because I was willing to move, could answer a battery of basic
questions on programming and system admin, and I fit in. My current position I
got because I learned ColdFusion at my previous job.

Everything builds from that first job. Being able to demonstrate your skills
is extremely valuable. Connections can get you in the door, but real work will
get you the job.

I actually got an interview through a connection once and was called the day
of to cancel. That sword is double-edged.

------
abstractbill
I got my job at justin.tv with no connections.

Honestly, it wasn't very hard. If you're genuinely good at what you do, and
you can prove it, then you're a huge anomaly compared to most people applying
for any position, and you will stand out even without connections.

------
noodle
my current job had no connections involved. in fact, i turned down a perfectly
good job in favor of this one simply because it had connections involved.

i wanted the job that i earned instead of the one i was handed. but, i'm kind
of hardheaded about that type of thing.

~~~
sokoloff
A job that you got via connections who know and trust your technical ability
_is_ an earned job.

~~~
noodle
sometimes yes, sometimes no. i know just as many people who've gotten
jobs/contracts/etc because they shook the right hands as people who've gotten
jobs because of their technical excellence.

it can be hard to know which is which sometimes.

------
utefan001
Job 1 (connection) 1998 $17 tech support for 100 person architecture firm.

Job 2 (unplanned connection) 1999 The CEO of the 15 person software company
went to highschool with a girl cousin of mine. He obviously use to like her.

Job 3 (no connection) 2001 thank you monster.com

Job 4 (no connection) 2002 side job, thank you careerlink.com

Job 5 (no connection) 2004 thank you monster.com

Job 6 (no connection) 2006 January..thank you monster.com, literally insane
boss

Job 7 (no connection) 2006 July..thank you indeed.com, bored had to leave.

Job 8 (no connection) 2007 June..thank you craigslist

The thing that I am most grateful for that has helped me get jobs without
connections is Job #5. The company was growing fast and had hundreds of areas
where I could work on sql performance tuning. Even when I arrived home I would
always dial in to work on sql performance tuning. I gained most of my
confidence (not arrogance) making significant contributions during Jobs 3, 4
and 5. That confidence gained through experience helps during an interview.

------
khafra
I got a job with the USMC at 17; since then, I've been all syn, syn/ack, ack:
Connection-oriented.

------
themole
My last three jobs have been w/o direct or indirect connections:

1\. I was working at an ISP help desk and a local computer repair company
called in desperately needing help with a *nix box. Went out on my own after a
shift and helped the tech out. He emailed me the next day and asked if I was
interested in working for them as a repair tech and if so when would be a good
time to do a short interview. I eventually moved up to the director of web dev
at this job. (Side note: Getting the ISP job was because of a direct referral)

2\. I applied for a web dev job at the local newspaper about 4 years later.
They offered me the positon about five weeks after applying - two weeks after
my second interview. They were notoriously slow for interviewing and hiring
people.

3\. (current gig) Two years after that I applied for a web dev gig at the
state university and was offered the position about 4 hours after my first and
only interview. The interview went really well and all my referrals were
awesome.

Now between all those jobs (about a 6 year span) I've probably applied for at
least 5 other web development jobs and didn't even get interviews for all of
them. For some I'm sure the lack of a college degree really made them think
twice. In one interview I got burned on some technical questions that I
couldn't answer which probably removed me from the pool.

While knowing people can be extremely helpful, I've found being ready when
opportunity knocks much more useful. To put it another way, don't stop
learning new things.

By continuing to expand your knowledge you prove that you're smart enough to
learn and use new things, and that you care enough about your work to make
yourself better at it.

------
leecho0
Hmmm, connections only got me to the interview faster, it didn't seem to make
a difference in the decision making process. Did it help for you guys?

------
ryanwaggoner
My first job out of college was a product manager at CNET. I applied to
several jobs there over the course of a few months, but heard nothing back. I
eventually got a call from a hiring manager for a position, but he didn't find
me in the internal hiring database. No, _he found my resume posted on
Craigslist_ and decided to call. I interviewed and got the job. Still
surprises me.

------
icey
I can't help much with your direct question; every job and gig I've had ended
up being the result of knowing someone in some form or shape.

If you're looking for something new, I'd seriously recommend getting to some
events and at least making _some_ connections. If you're in a city that has IT
jobs, there are groups out there; it might just take a little looking to find
them

~~~
rdr
thanks for the quick reply! so how did you get your FIRST job then? it seems
easier to bootstrap once you've made connections at your Nth job to go to the
(N+1)th job, but how do you start?

~~~
icey
My first job was an internship with someone I met during my short stay at
college. I didn't know him very well at all, but we happened to talk a little
bit and after I told him I wanted to get into the computer industry he let me
know they had an internship available.

~~~
rdr
ah nice, yeah it seems like internships during college is a good first step
since the barrier to entry is a bit lower ... from there you can start
building your network

~~~
icey
I think it's worth mentioning that college wasn't really the important factor;
the important thing was seeking out and finding people who were doing what I
wanted to be doing.

You could go the route of posting your resume to job boards, writing great
cover letters, etc; but knowing people is a two-way street. Not only can they
give you an in, they can also tell you if a place is any good or not to work
for.

------
fsniper
A linux System Administration job. I was a new kid in the block and in the
city. I had minor previous experience. And I was still an undergrad student.
Knew no one. But made a good interview. Also the company was in need for an
administrator quickly ;). The other one was leaving for conscription.

------
stonemetal
>that hit rates on applying online to job posts are pretty low (especially
nowadays).

Hit rates for monster etc are pretty low. Local job boards, University "career
center" online listings other low volume job sites are still worth looking at.
It is how I found both my current position and my last position.

------
kevinherron
I got my current job as a Software Developer without any connections. Sent in
my resume, came in for the interview, and brought my laptop to show off some
of my personal projects on top of whatever we talked about.

Having experience that isn't related to work or school seems to be key.

------
nickfox
Two of my current contracts are from an open source project I wrote and put on
Sourceforge (<http://sourceforge.net/projects/gpsmapper/>) It's not very
complicated but people really like it.

------
intranation
I got a job as a developer at Yahoo! with no connections--I just applied via
the ad on their site. This was a number of years ago when they were still
hiring big time in Europe.

As for difficulty, it was 5 interviews including coding exercises, so I guess
I did okay.

------
dedalus
I got my first job without any connections. Saw an ad and applied and get
through the interview. If you see the job description and feel that you can do
that job perfectly most of the time it should not be a problem

------
shib71
I got my current job (bespoke web development) based on my participation in an
email list. Apparantly the other guys just recognized the name on the resume.

Never underestimate the value of a reputation in the community.

------
obvioustroll
I've gotten two jobs that way. My first job out of school, and 7 years later
when I was laid off. Most of my jobs, however, have come through personal
contacts with other engineers.

------
vivekamn
I think for developers the advice of 'work your connections to get a job' is
highly over rated. In my 15 years of experience not even a single job I got is
based on connections.

------
nkohari
Two. My first, and my second. After that, I had a good enough network that I
ended up with a personal introduction or referral. Networking really is
everything in business. :)

------
agotterer
I got my current job at Connected Ventures (CollegeHumor) with no connections
and my first job at Cablevision as well. I found the CV job on Techcrunch.

------
geekfuu
Every job in the last 12 years that I have had in IT has been with ZERO
connections. System architect positions. All hiring was based on my resume.

------
swombat
I got into a large consulting company as a junior software engineer back in
the day, without any connections.

That sucks. I won't do that again if I can avoid it.

------
mitechka
I am a system administrator for forsalebyowner.com/ I got this job the old
fashioned way, by sending out resumes for job ads on the internet.

------
run4yourlives
Myself on the last two occasions.

One, in the paper(!), the second through a local technology association
website.

I'm still working there, 6 years later.

------
ibsulon
I've gotten my last two gigs through recruiters. One was an internal
recruiter, one was a subcontractor.

------
strlen
I've gotten my first job _ever_ after being contacted by a recruiter (at 17,
as still a high school student no less!). Got my first position out of college
with no connection (applied online, during my senior year, in response to an
ad on my university's CSE department's web page).

Left that job to go to a start-up where I was introduced to the founders
through a connection. The problem is that (initially to me) the position
didn't seem sufficiently technically challenging to me (standard LAMP
development), so my connection ended up both a) "selling" the position to me
b) "selling" me to the founders (who in turned tried harder to convince me
that the position would be interesting).

That's always a sticky issue with referrals: they give additional reasons for
hiring a person and a additional reasons for the person to accept the
position. The company will feel the referring employee will be happier and
more productive if his friend/former co-worker is hired; the referred
connection will want a chance to work with someone they already knew and
enjoyed working with. Problem is that these reasons can detract from the real
questions at hand: "is this person a good fit for the position" (for the
employer) and "is this a position where I know I will be happy" (for the
employee). _Neither_ side should be trying hard to _sell_ themselves. Note:
obviously I am talking about engineering vs. sales. In sales the candidate
_should_ be selling themselves (they're expected to sell the product) and
_should_ have built up a rolodex of connections in the industry.

When it came time to leave the start-up (due to the office moving out of my
reasonable commute range and lack of technical challenge meant I wasn't
interested in moving yet again), I applied to four companies (three of them
_big names_ , one a mid-sized start-up)-- two by sending in a resume in
response to online job ads (Dice.com, LinkedIn), one by a contact from a
recruiter, one through a referral. Got interviews from all. Got offers from
three and (after more sleepless nights than I imagined) chose one-- the one
position I didn't get an offer for _was_ the one where I was referred (yes, it
was Google).

All of this happened in Summer/Fall of 2008, as the market was crashing. So,
your mileage may vary. My tips are this: write your resume smartly ( _show_
that you're competent, don't tell) tailor the resume (and especially) the
cover letter to show that you're _passionately_ interested in _that specific
job_. If you use the UDP Multicast method of sending a resume (blast out 100
copies of it to 100 different positions), as expected with UDP Multicast,
don't expect it to be processed. Apply _only_ to jobs you (judging from the
job description) feel you will be happy to do (which will make displaying
passion and interest in that position very easy).

Here are some good resume tips (although I've read them after writing my
resume): [http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2007/09/ten-tips-for-
slightl...](http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2007/09/ten-tips-for-slightly-
less-awful-resume.html)

[http://www.globalnerdy.com/2007/09/26/steve-yegges-resume-
ti...](http://www.globalnerdy.com/2007/09/26/steve-yegges-resume-tips-the-not-
so-long-winded-version/) (in case your response towards the first link is
"TL;DR")

------
macvijay1985
me

