
Mistakes to avoid when asking for a raise - ohjeez
https://www.hpe.com/us/en/insights/articles/how-to-ask-for-a-raise-in-2018-avoid-these-common-pitfalls-1801.html
======
scalesolved
"Are there some extra responsibilities I can take on to advance my career
here?" \- That seems a good way to get a lot of extra work with no benefits
and a loose date where management will 'revise' whether you are fulfilling it
or whether the raise date needs to be bumped further out (the latter usually
occurs).

I found the 4 tips on what not to do well written and useful for people
earlier in their career. I didn't get a lot from this article for when you
find pushback against raises (very common) especially when we're in an
industry that fully rewards job hopping and has a wholly broken
promotion/retention eco-system.

~~~
dang
Taking the liberty of removing the superlatives, I think this is very true,
and arguably more interesting than the article:

> _rewards job hopping and has a broken promotion /retention system_

Has anybody seen something successfully done about this? I mean, we know about
vesting and we know that interesting work keeps good people, etc., but I'm
curious what there is that isn't widely known which has been seen to shift
this issue.

~~~
trowawee
Basecamp appears to be successfully managing this. If you look at their "About
Us"[1] page, you see a lot of people who've been there for quite a while.
Their solution appears to be:

1\. Pay a lot of money: "Our target is to pay everyone at the company in the
95th percentile, or top 5%, of the market, regardless of their role."[2]
Previously that was benchmarked to Chicago prices; as of late 2017, that's
benchmarked to San Francisco prices.[3]

2\. Offer an excellent benefits package that actually benefits people (i.e.
isn't just an unused ping-pong table/game console and the promise of "great
culture!").[4] Something specifically noticeable is that they offer the kind
of benefits that maybe aren't big selling points when you're younger, but that
become increasingly enticing as you get older, and especially if you have kids
- a fantastic parental leave policy, good retirement policy, short summer
weeks.

3\. Respect your employees and treat them like adults. Harder to quantify, but
if you click around their handbook[5], you see a lot of things that boil down
to "We trust you to do the right thing, even in a very independent setting. We
won't be looking over your shoulder constantly." I think that's a really scary
idea for some people, and a really attractive proposition for others. If you
find people who are in that latter group in your hiring process, I suspect it
makes it easier to keep them around when most other jobs are not going to
involve that level of trust.

The idea of "interesting work keeps good people" \- I dunno about that. It's
hard to say what's interesting work. It's easy to say "adding new endpoints to
a CRUD app" is _not_ interesting, but for some people it might be, or at least
it might be "sufficiently interesting" to make a career of it. I have friends
in FinTech for whom tracking the market actually brings them joy, and I'm
happy for them, but when I try to watch their screen while they tell me about
what they're doing, my eyes start to glaze over. I don't know if what Basecamp
does counts as "interesting work" for most people, but it seems like it's
interesting enough, and the other parts of the company are good enough, for a
lot of people to want to stay there for quite some time.

[1]: [https://basecamp.com/about/team](https://basecamp.com/about/team)

[2]: [https://m.signalvnoise.com/how-we-pay-people-at-
basecamp-f1d...](https://m.signalvnoise.com/how-we-pay-people-at-
basecamp-f1d04f4f194b)

[3]: [https://m.signalvnoise.com/basecamp-doesnt-employ-anyone-
in-...](https://m.signalvnoise.com/basecamp-doesnt-employ-anyone-in-san-
francisco-but-now-we-pay-everyone-as-though-all-did-3ee87013cfc2)

[4]: [https://github.com/basecamp/handbook/blob/master/benefits-
an...](https://github.com/basecamp/handbook/blob/master/benefits-and-perks.md)

[5]:
[https://github.com/basecamp/handbook](https://github.com/basecamp/handbook)

~~~
pavel_lishin
#2 is one of the reasons I'm where I am now - I have a young child, and my
wife has been sick a fair amount this year, so a fairly liberal vacation
policy has been a godsend.

~~~
sdoering
I know what you mean. We are having yearly adjustments to our paycheck. But
more importantly we have not only the trust to do good work and are able to do
Home-Office and necessary vacations (especially in times of need) without any
ado.

So I know why I am staying and not in any need to look for something else.

------
LandR
If you want a pay rise find a job offer with a higher salary. Go to your
current manager and ask them to match. If they don't leave and go to the
higher paying job.

I think that's the only way to get a pay rise nowadays, aside from small
yearly raises like 2-3%

If you don't have another offer and aren't willing to walk away, you really
have no leverage to ask for more money.

~~~
paulie_a
And if you accept the raise you have just proven you are not loyal and will be
first up when cutbacks occur. This is terrible advice

~~~
ohjeez
Yes, this. I've seen it happen on several occasions.

Also: Let's say you use this tactic to strongarm the current employer into
giving you a raise. But that won't make you happy. You looked for a different
job because this one did not fulfill you -- and most of the time, the
dissatisfaction is not money related.

If you aren't happy with the current gig, leave. If you like your job but feel
you deserve more money, help the current employer recognize that and respond
to it.

~~~
richardwhiuk
If you don't get more money and then don't leave then the employer has no
incentive to give you more money. Wanting more money is by definition
disloyal.

~~~
akoncius
exactly. loyalty in employer’s eyes is to work as much as possible for as
little as possible and not leave. if you require more from employer it can be
interpreted as disloyalty. on yhe other hand, when employer fires employee,
it’s just business.

------
heisenbit
This was written by an external marketing person that was asked by HPE to
write articles that position HPE in a certain way. This gentleman has written
about:

\- salary rises \- IoT basics

in articles "how to / pitfalls", "how and how not to", "30+ conferences", "7
tips". I'm a bit puzzled they employing others to do this type of positioning.
Blogs were once about speaking with your voice. Dave and Hewlett were hands on
and straight. As an ex HPL I don't want to think what they would say about
this.

------
genzoman
I worked for HP during the HP/E split. Number one tip: don't work at HP (if
you want to actually get the raise).

~~~
fetus8
I just got laid off from HPE in October, and my next position had more than a
20% salary increase, so I have to second this HARD.

Also I would really hesitate to take advice from HPE...

~~~
crispyambulance
Ironically, the author of the article is best known as a humorist (a really
good one too). They perhaps could not find someone in-house to write an HPE-
career-advice article with a straight face, so they had to outsource it?

------
tenpoundhammer
Funny story, while working for a large company in 2012, that may or may not
have written this article. I followed these exact steps on the advice (via
podcast) of Merlin Mann who talked about how a sane person gets a raise and
keeps their dignity and job.

I didn't get the raise.

Two months later I took a better paying job at a different company. Upon
putting in my two weeks notice, the management came to me and asked "Why
didn't you bring a competing offer, we would have given you a raise if you
did?" and then offered to give me a raise in order to stay on. They also said
it was common in the industry.

I was happy to leave after this. I wouldn't change anything I did, leaving was
the best thing I've ever done for my career.

If you feel like you are providing more value than your employer is paying you
for and they won't give you a raise. Then apply at other companies and ask for
the rate you want. If you are worth what you think you're worth you will get a
job offer close to that rate, otherwise you won't and you'll learn the value
that the market places on your skills.

~~~
phibz
> If you feel like you are providing more value than your employer is paying
> you for and they won't give you a raise. Then apply at other companies and
> ask for the rate you want. If you are worth what you think you're worth you
> will get a job offer close to that rate, otherwise you won't and you'll
> learn the value that the market places on your skills.

This has matched with my experience every single time. At almost every job
I've worked at in the last 20 years it's been:

* get hired at X because it was MN% higher than what I last had

* learn new skills

* get promoted without a pay increase or with a < 2% pay increase

* ask for a raise stating my accomplishments and promotion

* get pissed off and leave for MN% increase

* repeat

At this point in my life I've just stopped asking for raises altogether. It's
simpler and easier to just go elsewhere.

------
southphillyman
Hate to say it but I think if you have to ask for a raise you're probably not
going to get it (or won't get as much as you want). I've seen companies let
bonafide rockstars with the most domain knowledge in the group walk over
money. I just don't get it. It's like someone in the HR industry made up this
rule and bad companies stick to it for whatever reason. I'd go as far as
saying the majority of the attrition I've seen has been money related, and all
of my decisions to bounce have been motivated by money.

Companies will spend $100k+ on Christmas parties, sport box suites, and other
marketing/sales related things but won't give a critical piece of the team an
extra $25k or whatever? Just mind boggling.

~~~
scalesolved
The thing that makes me think the system is broken is how they'll avoid larger
raises at all costs even if it means losing great engineers with lots of
domain knowledge.

The cost of replacing this is immense to an organisation, even if they can
hire a similarly skilled engineer they've:

1\. Had to absorb hiring costs 2\. Search in a competitive market for talent
3\. Distract team members with another round of interviews 4\. On-boarding
costs whilst the engineer absorbs all the lost domain knowledge. (This is the
big one).

Once all that is taken into account it's probably getting close to a full
yearly salary of the engineer they just let walk. I still feel it takes a good
3-6 months for an engineer on complex domain projects to really feel
comfortable regardless of their seniority.

~~~
trowawee
It's definitely broken. It doesn't help that a lot of the cost of hiring is
born in externalities - it's difficult to measure the cost of the time spent
screening and interviewing and thinking about prospects, or the cost of the
extra 15 or 30 or 60 minutes of Googling/reading the codebase/chasing bad
ideas that the rest of the team has to do to replace having that knowledge
sitting next to them in the form of a person, or the technical debt accrued
when the next thing you build is implemented in a slightly worse form than it
could be.

------
pktgen
> Company management may accept with varying levels of ease employees
> voluntarily sharing salary info with each other.

 _May_ accept? No, in the US, they _have to_ accept it (unless the employees
are supervisors or working for one of the few exempt industries such as
railroads or airlines; even then, other laws may apply). See
[https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/employee-
rights](https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/employee-rights).

------
JOnAgain
Threatening to quit is one of the best pieces of advice. Just be prepared to
follow through or swallow it and shut up if it doesn't go your way. But for
lots of bigger companies, they can't or won't without a thread like this.

~~~
ryanbrunner
The biggest danger in threatening to quit is that you only really get to use
it once with a particular company, and even then you should really think about
how your company would respond. I've worked with management teams that were
quick to put someone into the "unreliable" bucket as soon as they threatened
to quit, avoiding placing them on critical projects and focusing on making
them redundant. Even in some cases with non-malicious intentions.

~~~
gowld
Companies that manage away their best talent don't last long

~~~
borplk
Not really true. Lots of terrible companies manage to continue to exist just
fine.

Maybe in the very long term it will eventually catch up with them. But then
who cares?

------
giarc
I was talking about this with some co-workers the other day. This article
focuses on salary, but consider that sometimes what you want may be extra
vacation time or personal days. They may be more acceptable to some managers.

~~~
switch007
That feels like a consolation prize. And it does not seem like good currency
when you change jobs (especially for companies that demand current salary
information).

~~~
el_benhameen
I don't necessarily disagree, but two small counter points:

1\. It's now illegal in California for employers to ask for salary history.

2\. Vacation days, if they're not unlimited, are compensation and must be paid
out if you leave. That's not base salary with which you can negotiate a higher
offer at another company, but it is money.

~~~
PenguinCoder
#2 is why all the 'trendy' companies are starting to give out "unlimited PTO".

~~~
el_benhameen
Yeah, I've wondered (figured) if that's part of the motivation. That and they
can just shame people into taking none. Not a fan unless the company is super
trustworthy, which is hard to gauge.

~~~
mackey
Totally, even within the same company it can vary. I worked some place where
engineering was really good about encouraging people to take time off and lots
of upper management set a good example with unlimited PTO. However, I had
heard that sales and consulting weren't as encouraged.

------
munchbunny
My problem with the article is that if you try to follow all of that advice,
you are left with no real leverage to work with, and the sad reality of the
vast majority of jobs is that you will not get a raise unless you have
leverage.

If I had to compile my own advice, which is inevitably incomplete but I think
gives more actionable advice than the article, I'd say:

1\. Don't openly criticize your colleagues. Word tends to get around and it
erodes their trust in you.

2\. Don't threaten. That makes your manager defensive, which is
counterproductive. You can imply your dissatisfaction and your manager will
infer the risk of losing you, but threatening to leave tends to get a
defensive reaction.

3\. If you are trying to be less underpaid, then approach it from a
perspective of fair compensation for the work that you do. Do not hide that
you think it's unfair, but also make sure that you're well-justified in
thinking it's unfair.

4\. If you are trying to get paid more despite being fairly compensated, then
have a discussion about where you have to up your game to earn more.

------
walshemj
""If every staff member met with their boss simply for a chat and received a
raise as a result, there would be a lot of high-paid salaries and complacency
among staff," says Steve Pritchard, an HR consultant for Cuuver"

Well to quote Mandy Rice Davies well "he would say that wouldn't he" Just
Paroting the HR line is not that helpful for an employee looking fro a raise.

------
esoteric_nonces
Achieve some level of financial security (say 6-12 months savings), then just
do whatever you want.

The hard part is the former. Once you've done that the negotiation bit is
trivial because you don't really need to care - you can just take it as a
given that eventually you'll be paid more (unless you're taken ill and
stop/slow down working).

------
zepolen
Step 1. Be valuable

Step 2. Ask for your value

Step 3. Walk if you don't get it

~~~
barleymash
The difficult scenario is if you really enjoy your job. I work at a company
that I have almost nothing to complain about... flexible, great benefits, no
micromanagement, challenging and stimulating work. However, I do feel that I
am slightly underpaid. It is hard to _really_ know what the environment would
be like at a new company if I was willing to walk. I guess the hard thing (for
me) is quantifying the importance of the other factors besides money.

~~~
frandroid
That's your good mental health right there. That's worth a fortune. I'd never
threaten to walk out on a job like that. This is where the article's advice is
more useful than the commenters' :)

~~~
BeetleB
>That's your good mental health right there. That's worth a fortune. I'd never
threaten to walk out on a job like that.

I used to think that way, but in general, the situation will change. You can
have a this awesome job for N years, and then management can change and you'll
be miserable.

I think it's always better to be in a position where you know you can easily
move if things go south. If your current awesome job is also making you grow,
then great! If, however, it's too comfortable and you cannot differentiate
yourself well, you will not be able to move easily once things go south.

~~~
frandroid
"If I change the input in your equation, the result changes" !!

------
CapitalistCartr
Job hop. I've had one time in my life when I got a raise as good as changing
jobs. The way to manage your career is to see each job as a step.

Companies are full of management from junior to executive, who are good at
making problems someone else's. Not actually solving them. They love to make
their financials improve on the backs of the rank and file, rather than their
own skill, then compensate for lower pay will with guilt trip fantasies about
loyalties. Then treat people: employees, contractors, customers, vendors,
doesn't matter, like toilet paper. Your real boss is you.

------
pimmen
_" Don't compare yourself to your co-workers"_

I don't agree, I think you should. You're selling your labor, you need to know
what the market price is. The article says that you don't know why the other
employees are earning more, and that's a valid point. Only way to know what it
is that your employer values more in other people? Ask your employer about it.
If it's something tangible, like education, certificates, landing an important
account, good deliveries on time or something like that you know what you need
to get a raise. If your employer comes up short with reasons for why you're
paid less than your peers you have the perfect argument for a raise.

It could be that I'm Swedish though because it's rather common and not taboo
to do this research before asking for a raise. Why do you think we're way
ahead of the US in income equality between genders?

------
eric24234
Former HPE employee. Manager asked if i have any offer letters when asked for
raise. Actually my manager really was a kind of guy who can not lie or cover
so much. I understood immediately this is a standard thing and also it made
sense. From an employer stand point only about 20 % might have an offer letter
from another org and the rest 80 % are too lazy to go to interviews and get
offer letters. It works for them.

TLDR; Quit every 3 years or so if you want raise.

------
naasking
> Finally, don't lead with how long it's been since your last raise, says
> Valerie Streif, a senior advisor at Thementat.com, a San Francisco-based
> organization for job seekers. "This starts off the conversation with a tone
> of entitlement and shifts the focus away from your achievements. Instead, it
> reveals that you expect the raise solely due to the amount of time you've
> been in your position."

Right, because experience has no impact on your expected value in the job
market. I think managers should read some articles on how to not lose valuable
employees.

~~~
ohjeez
There's an old saying about a programmer who has 8 years of experience: The
same year, 8 times over.

I think we have all worked with that person, at one time or another. Does that
individual deserve a raise for the accomplishment of not being fired?

~~~
mulletbum
From my experience, these people always tend to be the one talking about
raises or becoming management the most. Can barely do their job, 6 years in,
still barely can do their job, but think they deserve the world.

------
purplezooey
Another one is trying to use leverage. Like, "this such and such would be
screwed without me.". Fast track to pissing people off.

------
Benjammer
This advice is pretty ridiculous for someone with in-demand talents. I get it
if you are in some highly-replaceable role, or you are looking to swing the
work-life balance more towards life and you want to just play by the rules and
keep your head down.

But if you are a talented contributor and you believe in the value you add,
you probably shouldn't listen to any of these points, they are heavily
"company-centric" in focus.

>1\. Don't make it all about you

Unless I have a significant equity stake, this literally IS just about me and
my employment arrangement with the company. It's frustrating to be told that
my salary is dependent on equity value increasing - which I won't see any
piece of. Shouldn't it be dependent on my value to the company and not the
value of the company itself?

>2\. Don't compare yourself to your co-workers

Why the fuck not? This is standard corp-speak for "don't rock the boat, man."
They also describe looking at coworker salaries in the HR system (they say
"use" not "hack" or "break into" the system) as "illicit." This is the same
old nonsense about not discussing salaries to keep the power with the company.

>3\. Don't make promises you can't (or don't want to) keep

This is condescending and basically amounts to "don't threaten to quit because
that's not professional." How about we start looking at why people are being
pushed to a point where they feel like threatening to quit is their only
option?

>4\. Don't ask too soon

Bullshit. As soon as you feel that your value has measurably increased you
should ask to be compensated for it. You shouldn't have to work 1.5 times the
hours/workload for 2 years or some shit just to be considered for a
raise/promotion. There's also a compounding effect over time here, each delay
in a raise for you is going to delay the _next_ raise as well.

Obviously this is within reason, you can't walk in the door of a company,
fresh out of school, and then demand a raise 3 months in. But there are
similar scenarios later on when you have experience where you might walk into
a new job and you realize within 3 months that you were hoodwinked about the
workload when you interviewed. It's perfectly fine to at least discuss an
increase in comp to match what you now understand the job requirements to be.

~~~
jamisteven
Couldnt agree with this more! The power needs to be put back into the hands of
the employee, this article is basically telling you to act like f*cking
boyscout, with that being the exact type of behavior that got most of us into
these situations.

~~~
Benjammer
Yeah, act like a boyscout, but don't expect any merit badges in return...

