
Ever young? - rinze
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2016/10/ever-young.html
======
anexprogrammer
I feel like a complete failure at "adulting" too. Then again, I don't _want_
to succeed at it. I'm not done having fun. Same goes for nearly all of my
friends. I've lost both parents, and had kids, and I get on with the kids in a
way I doubt my parents could have conceived of. I want to feel they're friends
until I drop.

By my age my parents were fully paid up members of middle age and led _dull_
lives, as all their generation seemed to. They were very different people to
how they described their 20s. I still recognise the me of my 20s. I'm not even
becoming more conservative, I've got more liberal except in clothes!

What possible reason is there to grow up? I see no benefit to it, for anyone.

~~~
lmm
I've become more conservative because, to put it bluntly, I'm closer to death
now. I've done my experimentation, I know myself pretty well now, I know what
I like and what I don't. So my life is dull in the sense that I'll likely do
the same things every weekend, eat in the same restaurants, go to the same
places on holiday (likely on my home continent, perhaps even my home country)
and so on.

~~~
T-A
Sounds like the epsilon-decreasing solution to the classic exploration-vs-
exploitation problem: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-
armed_bandit#Approximate...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-
armed_bandit#Approximate_solutions)

I would be surprised if there weren't papers arguing that youthful
recklessness morphing into adult conservatism is a learning strategy favored
by natural selection.

~~~
wyager
Given that this heuristic would have evolved when humans had a much shorter
expected lifespan, I expect there would be a very large market for
neuroplasticity enhancing drugs that also increase one's effective epsilon
factor.

------
blamestross
In the US culture i grew up in, i feel like adulting meant:

\- finding a job to do until you retire/die

\- having kids, and having them be your primary purpose in life

\- rightfully abandoning any long term other than attempting to retire

All the other things seem to derive from the above. Honestly adulting
literally seems like the first stages of an acceptance of death and aging the
change of priorities as a consequence. I think, that given the same inputs
(impending infirmities and death) you can come to very different conclusions.
I don't have time for kids or retirement because i have a hell of a lot to get
done before i die and i'll be working on it right up to the deadline.

~~~
hilop
I don't have time for working I need to raise my kids before I die.

------
woliveirajr
When I was a kid, adults were boring people that kept saying no and used all
those formal clothes all the time.

Now that I'm in my 40s, I'm so cool, it's just a coincidence that I have to
watch out my little girl and tell her to not do this out that every 15
minutes.

[/sarcasm]

~~~
kawera
_" When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to
have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much
the old man had learned in seven years."_ (generally attributed to Mark Twain)

~~~
WalterSear
He forgot to mention that after that, it's a long slow walk back to 14 again,
as you realize how out of touch they had been all along.

~~~
draw_down
Yes! Nobody talks about this part of the curve. It really sucks.

------
norswap
I became an adult the day I started expecting being treated as one.

There are many more things that go about adulthood, and I guess the most
defining would be to take responsibility for one's own action.

I had taken responsibility already, it just had not occurred to me that I did
not need to defer to other people because of age and experience. (Not that it
is bad to defer to more experienced people, but it should be a conscious
decision.)

~~~
agumonkey
I think this is what used to be rites of passage. A symbolic timeline for
young ones to forget immature behavior, and "believe" in adult behavior, a
quick turnaround allowing both sides to adapt. Old respect you, and you
respect the old. Instead most "modern" cultures just relies on some cultural
market and institutions (like legally defined adult age) which allows drifting
for years before finding the inner desire to be seen as an altruistic adult
and behaving like one.

------
jacquesm
There are two short-cuts to growing up: losing both your parents or having
children.

~~~
blfr
The second one in particular. Why bother with owning a house or a car if not
with the end goal in mind of supporting kids? It's all for naught otherwise.
If you don't have anyone you need to provide with stability, you're better off
renting and ubering. You can always live within walking distance from your
workplace for example.

Also, while you don't have to wear a suit, many, many adults would benefit
greatly from dressing like adults. Sure, the times change, fashions come and
go, models of behaviour change a little, but putting effort in your appearance
is timeless. When I see a guy in his 40s wearing cargo shorts, I'm thinking
"arrested development."

~~~
dasmoth
>>> Why bother with owning a house or a car if not with the end goal in mind
of supporting kids?

That's an incredibly... urban...? [1] point of view. For me, the #1 argument
for owning a car is _flexibility_ \-- knowing you've got the option to drop
things at a moment's notice and head off to... wherever.

Owning a house is also an enabler for things which might be meaningful to
those without children: building up and maintaining a garden, for one. Hobbies
which need a decent-sized, stable, workshop tend to be easier in a house you
own than in a rental, too.

(We do have a child now, but my wife and I owned both house and car for years
before deciding we wanted children. And now have rather less time for hobbies
that make houses and cars essential...)

[1] Not so much in the specifically "city" sense, but in the sense of
preferring external infrastructure vs. building up and maintaining enough
infrastructure of your own to feel somewhat self-sufficient.

~~~
blfr
_That 's an incredibly... urban...?_

Yes. I was going to add car racing or some offroader as an exception but most
people live in cities and don't have that kind of hobbies. And it's probably
still more convenient to join a hacker space.

~~~
dasmoth
I don't think we're going to agree on this one. Hackerspace vs. "own workshop"
are _completely_ different things. If objective convenience is your only
metric, Hackerspace might well win, but living near one places a lot of
constraints on other areas of your lifestyle, and it's never going to give a
feeling of self-sufficiency.

( _Edit_ : this shouldn't be taken as a criticism of Hackerspaces -- they're a
great compromise for people who otherwise like the tradeoffs that urban
lifestyles bring, and can be fun to visit even if you don't need to borrow the
tools).

------
mcguire
I think Heinlein wrote that no woman was ever older than 18 in her own mind.
My corollary is that no man is ever older than 12.

~~~
digi_owl
The big difference may well be that women are allowed to act out their inner
age, while men are expected to behave their age (whatever the F that means).

~~~
ljf
Do you think so? I think if anything it's been historically men that keep the
toys (cars, golf, nights with the boys) . In the last generation or 2 women
seem to have also been allowed a life outside of the home, and a role other
than 'adult mother'

Or do you mean something else?

~~~
DamnYuppie
I am guessing he was referencing how they behave and express themselves to
their friends, family, and significant others.

------
amelius
Perspective from a woman [1]:

> Men in their 30s are running around like children, sabotaging relationships
> and their lives without obligation or thought of consequence. Why?

[1] [https://escapingpan.wordpress.com/2015/06/27/hello-
world/](https://escapingpan.wordpress.com/2015/06/27/hello-world/)

~~~
gaius
Society expects that in order to "grow up" men must stop spending time on
their hobbies and with their friends. Some might say "aha, that is how the
patriarchy harms men too!" but I can guarantee you that no man has ever said
to another "hey bro, you know what, we should like totally stop doing so much
cool stuff"...

I avoided all of that by marrying someone into wreck diving, mountains, the
gym etc too :-)

~~~
wyager
Excellent point; Blaming "The Patriarchy" (leaving aside the question of to
what degree it might actually exist) for every social condition is absurdly
reductionist to the point of being obviously incorrect; it pretends that women
throughout history have had no social influence whatsoever. If men were really
responsible for every social institution, we certainly wouldn't have the
"settle down and give up all your personal interests so as to more effectively
fund your wife and children" phase in the archetypal male life.

------
rhlala
I find a lot of times grew-up means dedicate less time to learn/play/being
creative, and more time to consum and work/produce (if you not call it
slavery)

I will stay with that proverb:

 _I am getting older, thats mean i have been younger longer than you!_

------
stefs
well, in my opinion: what we call "adulting" is what we see when we are kids
and watch our parents. but what we see is an act they perform for us - as role
models - and we perceive it without all required background knowledge
(because, well, we're kids).

so when we grow up and the reality doesn't exactly match our expectations, the
assumption is that we're not doing it right. usually, at least when we - or
close friends - get kids, the acting is explained. and we might have aquired
the background knowledge, but the settings have changed.

i don't think we refuse to grow up. it's just that being an adult is not what
we thought it to be when we attached meaning to the word.

------
hprotagonist
A loose but accurate criterion for failure is use of the term "adulting".

------
draw_down
I don't really like living for the benefit of others. I've noticed in my life
that the more I'm working to fulfill the expectations of others, or taking
care of things that they either can't do or can't do well, the more miserable
that makes me. I'd say that adulthood is in several respects the process of
acclimating to living your life for others.

This article spends a lot of time talking about the trappings, like cars and
stuff. For me at least, having or not having that stuff has never been the
issue with adulthood.

~~~
nemo1618
>I don't really like living for the benefit of others.

It's much easier (satisfying, even) when the other people are friends, family,
spouse, neighbors... people you care about. It is no sacrifice to expend time
and energy helping these people.

~~~
draw_down
Short term, I readily agree. Longer term... I start to get resentful, I get
tired of doing the same thing I've done a hundred times before. A kindness
extended for long enough becomes an obligation. I think people should
basically be able to handle things on their own.

To be clear, I don't think it's good that I feel this way. I don't think more
people should be like me. But this is how I am, and attempting to deny the
fact has only led to resentment, depression, and a bad time for all involved.

------
happy-go-lucky
Just finished watching E.T. This is for the nth time. Came here, started
reading all these comments with a heavy heart. As a child, I always hated
_growing up_.

~~~
smorrow
That's interesting. In _Escape From Childhood_ in particular, John Holt's
point of view is something along the lines of: children, being stuck in ("the
institution of) childhood ("), look at the world and are always thinking of
growing up, and what they want to do when they grow up, and so on. Roslyn
Ross, who actually has a son, observes the same thing.

If it happens that some children want to _remain_ in childhood, I suppose a
possible explanation is that there could be an allegory-of-the-cave effect. I
think most people _like_ making their own decisions until adult interference
gets to the point of making them worse at it.

------
digi_owl
Then again i see supposed adults behave worse than kids given half an excuse.

------
jksmith
I will not be sharing my FB page on HN.

