
How much sleep do we really need to work productively? - mrusschen
http://blog.bufferapp.com/how-much-sleep-do-we-really-need-to-work-productively
======
crazygringo
> _“Sleeping 8.5 hr. might really be a little worse than sleeping 5 hr.”_

How can people even take this kind of pseudo-science seriously?

If I sleep for 5 hrs, I'm a complete zombie during the day, unproductive and
depressed.

If I sleep for 8.5 hrs (which is how long I sleep naturally), I feel great,
productive, and happy. I get way more done.

There are all sorts of studies showing all the negative effects of not getting
enough sleep -- that sleep-deprived doctors, for instance, are basically
acting under an impairment equal to a few drinks of alcohol.

The idea that people in general are getting too _much_ sleep is really quite
preposterous.

~~~
SeanDav
How is an expert on sleep saying something MIGHT be true now being classed as
pseudo science and not to be taken seriously?

Your rebuttal of this "pseudo science" is that you perceive that you
personally need 8.5 hours sleep - now _that_ smacks of pseudo science to me.

People are very different. Just because 1 person in a 1000 (or 100 or million
or whatever) benefits from 8.5 hours sleep does not necessarily mean that in
general one might get more benefit from less than 8.5 hours sleep.

This is not hard science, I doubt it could ever be, but that does not mean it
is pseudo science and certainly should not be dismissed out of hand because it
does not fit into the model of the world that you have personally.

~~~
Finster
Because of statements like:

> people who sleep between 6.5 hr. and 7.5 hr. a night, live the longest, are
> happier and most productive

O RLY? Time for another basic primer on causation vs. correlation.

~~~
SeanDav
That was the result of a study (in other words, science). Where is your proof
that the study is invalid?

Note that I am not saying that the result is fact, just that there is science
to indicate that things are not as simple as they may appear to people that
dismiss the whole thing as "pseudo science".

~~~
enraged_camel
>>That was the result of a study (in other words, science). Where is your
proof that the study is invalid?

I'm afraid "science" is quite a bit more complicated than you seem to believe.

One of its most basic tenets is that extraordinary claims require
extraordinary evidence. One study is not enough to prove the assertion that
people who sleep for 6.5 to 7.5 hours a night are the happiest.

------
VLM
You can have a lot of fun with this story by search and replace with "drink
glasses of water" and/or "sex per week". Its the exact same story, complete
with anecdotes about extremes, unusual people with unusual requirements,
conformist people terrified they're out of conformity in the deep decimal
places, rebels proud of their rebellion in the deep decimal places, plenty of
misguided residual puritanism, stories about how everyone knows the Americans
(never other nations?) have numbers too low.

The best answer is probably something along the lines of when you're tired,
sleep. When you're sleeping, sleep. If you have some weird imbalance leading
to poor sleep, talk to a dr. This philosophy of life also works pretty well
for drinking glasses of water, getting laid, and probably about 80 bazillion
other human activities.

~~~
diminoten
This philosophy assumes easy access to a doctor, and ignores the possibility
of any illness.

Furthermore, some people are curious about their body, and wish to understand
better activities which consume about a third of their lifetime. I'm one of
those people, and even if I get _literally_ no useful information out of
reading an article such as this, I am still happy to have read it and to have
thought about it, simply because it satiates my desire to learn more about
myself.

~~~
VLM
If the whole point is that search and replace feature results in the same
infotainment article for sleep, sex, drinking water, exercise, diet, probably
a whole bunch of other activities, you may not have objectively learned
anything about yourself as you claim. Then again if the subjective experience
was fun for you, clearly it doesn't hurt anyone else so go for it, the
standard social libertarian thing applies.

------
tokenadult
In general, most people (in the United States, the country I live in) need
more sleep than they are getting. One way this is put to the test is by
letting people relax in a comfortable reclining chair in a quiet, dark room
during daylight working hours. Many people fall asleep in this condition,
signaling that they are sleep-deprived, even if they have no regular habit of
taking a nap in the daytime.

I have lived in a country (Taiwan) where a siesta, a mid-day nap, is quite a
regular practice. The first time I lived there (1982-1985), I was only
unlearning my American habit of sleeping only at night near the end of my
stay. The second time I lived there (1998-2001), I was better able to adapt to
napping in the middle of the day like my co-workers, perhaps because I had
become a care-giving parent of young children in the meanwhile.

As the submitted blog post mentions, there is a research basis for thinking
that symptoms of what is characterized as "lack of executive function" or
"ADD" can be relieved just by getting sufficient sleep. It appears that one of
the roles of sleep is letting the brain have opportunity to restructure based
on new experiences while awake, so sleep seems to aid learning, planning, and
attention control.

I had a friend back in my college days who was a very hard-working research
scientist trying to find a cure for diabetes. Her claim, which she read
somewhere back in the 1970s, was that an hour of sleep before midnight is just
about as beneficial as two hours of sleep after midnight. It does seem to me
that I wake up especially rested on the rare occasions when I am fully asleep
for the night before 11:00pm. As my own lifestyle changes over the next decade
(= as my children grow up and live on their own), I will be eager to try the
experiment of better matching my hours of sleep with the actual hours of
darkness in my time zone.

AFTER EDIT: The top level comment by rayiner mentions allergies and writes

 _I jack up a humidifier_

and I agree with his statement that it is worthwhile to figure out what helps
sleep be deeper and less disturbed, including breathing without obstruction
during sleep. Depending on what a person is allergic to, DE-humidifying may be
the way to go. Dust mite allergies, for example, will be worse for a person
who lives in a humid room. Good luck to all in your experiments.

~~~
btilly
_I wonder how much symptoms of what is characterized as "lack of executive
function" or "ADD" can be relieved just by getting sufficient sleep._

If you're a person who reads the description of ADD and says that it sounds
like you, maybe a lot.

If you're a person who has the disorder, sufficient sleep is not going to make
it go away.

~~~
coldtea
> _Ιf you're a person who has the disorder, sufficient sleep is not going to
> make it go away._

IIRC, the "disorder" is mostly a psychological thing, not something concrete.

And it's uptick can also be ascribed to the willingness of more doctors to
diagnose something where there was nothing before (to assist in selling some
drugs, among other things).

So the two situations you describe here are not at all contradictory.

~~~
btilly
I'll bet you $1000 that I've read more about ADHD than you have in the last
year.

Dismissing a genetically transmitted brain chemistry problem as "mostly a
psychological thing" is extremely unhelpful.

~~~
primitur
Genetically transmitted brain chemistry may well be involved, but sleep is
necessary for all kinds of brain chemistry, too.

You can't have one without the other, perhaps .. perhaps, the reason we have
the genetic scenario now, is precisely because lack-of-sleep, or at least
sleep-culture-effecting-brains, has been an environmental factor over the
period of our evolution where such things mattered.

I think the entire point is, if sleep helps you focus, then for goodness sake:
get the proper amount of sleep.

~~~
btilly
You have completely missed the point.

Sleep is good. Get sleep. But people who actually have ADHD do not simply lack
sleep. End. Of. Story.

Your speculation of lack-of-sleep being the cause of ADHD is laughably wrong.
If it were true, then my son wouldn't have the disorder.

~~~
primitur
Its always those who have ADHD, or who somehow profit from its existence, who
defend the condition vehemently, while those who question the science behind
its diagnoses are always considered 'wrong' because 'mainstream society has
accepted that ADHD is a cultural normality'. Well, in some societies anyway -
there are plenty of places still left in the world where childrens' behaviours
are not incorrectly assumed to be 'faulty, as a result of some flaw' just
because the adults can't handle them, or because of some other cultural
normative being applied from beyond the fringe of industrialized mental health
practictioners.

But I would say to you this: there are other ways to deal with your problems
than to form a dependency with a pharmaceutical company and a consumer-
dependent relationship on other high preists of industrialized medicine. I
know you won't accept that, given your position on the matter is pretty clear
that of one who has succumbed to the problem, but the point of view that ADHD
diagnoses and treatment is overly exagerated is an equally valid one.

Your son has a 'disorder' described to you by your high priests. However,
maybe he just needs a better way of life, a healthier diet, more interaction,
more outside time, less participation in a caustic, chemical society. You
wouldn't know that, unless you tried to exceed the imposition of cultural
'normality' imposed on you by your society, by, frankly, leaving it behind.

~~~
btilly
_Your son has a 'disorder' described to you by your high priests. However,
maybe he just needs a better way of life, a healthier diet, more interaction,
more outside time, less participation in a caustic, chemical society. You
wouldn't know that, unless you tried to exceed the imposition of cultural
'normality' imposed on you by your society, by, frankly, leaving it behind._

You have absolutely no idea of how much of an asshole you are being right now.
You have your opinion, absolutely no facts about my personal situation, are
making a ton of assumptions, and yet think that YOU have the right to lecture
ME on this subject.

For the record, my son gets a much healthier diet than is standard in our
society. He gets several hours outside every day. We have never had a working
TV in his life. As he has grown we have allowed him movies - typically under 4
hours per week. He goes for regular hikes. Yes, we use medicine, but only the
minimum necessary to affect his ability to pay attention in school hours.

When he is not on medication, the following sequence is common. I can address
him by name, he looks at me, and I tell him to put his socks and shoes on.
This repeats 3x at 2 minute intervals. His socks and shoes remain not on, and
when I ask him to tell me what I've been asking him to do he honestly doesn't
know that I want him to put on socks and shoes. Not because he's malicious,
but because he simply was lost in his thoughts.

Yes, that is a culture-specific requirement. But if he was being raised in a
"natural hunting/gathering society" he'd be the kid who gets eaten by a tiger
because he was too busy looking at a spider to watch out.

Now you may think that there isn't a problem here. But I'm the parent here,
you're the stranger, you know nothing about my situation, and it is my job to
decide what measures are required to make sure that he grows up to be able to
survive in society to my satisfaction. So, in all honesty, it is time for you
to fuck off.

~~~
primitur
Oh, I have a perfectly good idea of how much of an asshole I was being. I'm a
total stranger on the Internet and I have no clue about you and your
circumstance beyond what you yourself proffer. That is the simple truth.

But look, you put your personal life on the line with this discussion. Did you
do that in order to gain sympathy, compassion, understanding .. from an
Internet stranger?

Or did you bring your son into this discussion for the sake of winning an
argument about social normatives as 'an authority', having read the books,
bought the drugs, gotten with the program?

I think you should examine your motives on that.

My personal position is that anyone who drugs their child, for whatever
reason, is as much a part of the problem as the perceived 'malady' of the
child. Thats my personal opinion - like you have your personal experiences, I
have mine too. You can tread on my opinion if you like - after all you are
just as much of an internet stranger with the potential to be an asshole as I
am. I have absolutely no problems with being called names for having an
unpopular opinion (although, careful with the name-calling: you might get us
both hell-banned).

>to be able to survive in society to my satisfaction.

So you've chosen your path, as a parent, and I've chosen mine as a parent as
well: two boys, neither will ever get anywhere near anyone who might consider
industrialized mental health 'solutions' such as drugging them, as a means of
imposing society's cultural norms, because my boys don't 'behave' per the
standard set for them. Thats just simply not going to happen. I'll live with
the consequences of my decision, just as you have lived with yours. To me,
your chosen path seems like its more for your sake than theirs, since it is
you who is having the communication difficulties, but again: I don't know all
the facts. I won't judge you as I have no right..

I urge you, however, to reconsider just how much you truly know about the
subject, and how much you've been told to think about the subject without
questioning the authorities in power. All humans deserve a chance: drugging
children at an early age because they don't meet societys' standards, is in my
opinion _worse_ than the so-called symptoms. Not to mention there is a lot of
profit being made from legally drugging children in this world today.

Just an opinion from a random internet asshole. Nice chatting with you. I wish
you all the best, and your son a happy and productive life, as he sees fit.

~~~
btilly
I brought my son in to provide personal experience demonstrating that your
guess about lack of sleep is completely wrong.

Every guess you've made since about how my family resembles your stereotype of
a family that would medicate has been laughably wrong. I don't know what you
think you know, or why you think you know it, but you've demonstrated a
complete inability to acknowledge any experiential input. In light of that
grotesque failure, I suggest that you question your own firmly held opinions.
Because so far you're batting 0.

Here is another mistake of yours: if I was medicating my son for my sake, I'd
medicate him every day, rather than arranging for him to be under the
influence of medication only for the periods that he's in the classroom. In
fact the main benefit that I have received so far is that I no longer have to
comfort him while he's crying about how frustrating school was for him.

I hope for your children's sake that they never require assistance that you're
unwilling to consider for them. Luckily most don't, so their odds are pretty
good. But I'm sure that if you get the average result, you'll take all of the
credit for them doing expectedly well.

~~~
primitur
>I brought my son in to provide personal experience demonstrating that your
guess about lack of sleep is completely wrong.

On the basis of a single data point.

>I hope for your children's sake that they never require assistance that
you're unwilling to consider for them. Luckily most don't, so their odds are
pretty good.

.. but then again, this is groupthink at its finest. Are you religious by any
chance?

~~~
btilly
_Are you religious by any chance?_

You continue striking out. I'm an atheist.

But you seem to be the kind of atheist that gives the rest of us a bad name.

~~~
primitur
You want to insult, I want to enlighten. My how times change.

------
rayiner
There is a lot of mumbo-jumbo surrounding sleep and precious little science,
but I have found a few things in my own life that have made me feel better
(could be placebo, who knows?)

1) Sleeping in multiples of 90 minutes really does work. It takes me very
little time to fall asleep, so I can pretty predictably set my alarm to wake
myself up in-between sleep cycles. My baby likes to sleep in three hour
increments, and with two of those I feel great in the morning, even though I
wake up in the middle to feed her.

2) Establishing a comfortable sleep environment. I jack up a humidifier and
put on a Breathe-Right strip. I have low-grade allergies half the year and
while I can breathe without one, I find myself feeling much more refreshed in
the morning when I sleep with one on.

Most of all, sleep is something worth experimenting with. People spend huge
amounts of their time sleeping, and sleepiness has a tremendous impact on
productivity, but I find that most people don't introspect much with regards
to their sleep. Going from not sleeping well to sleeping well is the ultimate
life hack in my opinion.

~~~
incision
>Most of all, sleep is something worth experimenting with.

Yep.

Through experimentation, I've become a believer in ritual to prepare for and
wake from bed as well as napping.

My sweet spot seems to be 8 hour sleep with a 40 minute nap round 13:00. If I
had to choose, I'd take less sleep overnight before losing the midday nap.

Prior to experimenting, I was "sure" I functioned optimally at about 6 hours
per night. Looking back, I expect it wasn't the specific duration that helped,
just consistency.

Also, I second the breathe-right strip.

------
zacharyvoase
The bit about the 3PM dip is not just about meridian cycles.

Since I gave up carbohydrates, I haven't had that hypoglycaemic productivity
dip at a predictable time after lunch. As a contractor, I've sat in different
offices and witnessed those around me experience 'the dip', whereas I can now
soldier on through the day from morning to evening with consistent alertness
and focus levels. Oh, and creatine supplementation helped a lot, too.

Another useful trick is to buy a blackout blind or window cover. I've managed
to make my bedroom pitch black from the beginning to the end of my sleep
cycle, and I know that my sleep is much better for it. It goes without saying
that if the sun rises early where you live, and you happen to go to sleep late
one night, it can be impossible to get the full 8 hours you want if the light
starts streaming in before you've finished.

~~~
venus
> Another useful trick is to buy a blackout blind or window cover

+1 to this suggestion. I sleep far better, and am much happier, if I have the
ability to properly black out the windows of my bedroom. It's not just the
obvious stopping the sun shining in in the morning - it's the second order
effects too, like removing the _anxiety_ of not being able to fall asleep
before the sun comes up. It makes a big difference, in my opinion.

------
Xcelerate
You know how there's people that can get by on 4-5 hours of sleep each night?
I think I'm the opposite. Left to my own devices, I will sleep 10-10.5 hours a
day. If I wake up with anything less than 9, I feel pretty horrible. Not sure
why, but I sure wish I could get by on less.

~~~
mgla
Have you considered the possibility that you're suffering from sleep apnea?

~~~
Xcelerate
I don't think I am. I'm in shape (was D1 runner) and 22. Who knows though.

~~~
TallGuyShort
I've known people who have had it, and were in their twenties and in excellent
physical shape.

~~~
Xcelerate
Hmm. Thanks. I will look into it then.

------
kisielk
The author states earlier in the article that we don't really understand sleep
and that there is no one solution for everyone. He then proceeds to make a
list of "top three" concrete and (IMO) questionable suggestions that he thinks
we should follow. Not a great article.

~~~
kamjam
_It seems that finding your optimal sleeping time in between Kripke’s finding
is a good way to go. It’s certainly something I’m giving a go now._

He does say you need to experiment and not take it as gospel. But there's
nothing particularly new in that article, I've heard that story of Japanese
office workers napping at their desk in the afternoon many years ago.

------
Cacti
My favorite sleep anecdote is that if you take some rats and force them to not
sleep (put them on a treadmill and wire them up to some electrodes that will
start the treadmill up and keep them awake whenever they start to doze) the
rats will die within a week or so. Shorter than it takes to die of
dehydration. Something about the brain overheating.

Sleep is a big deal, and not just because of the memory issue. Brains are
expensive!

------
joonix
I don't think humans evolved with alarm clocks. In an ideal world, would you
not let yourself sleep as long as your brain deems appropriate? I think sunset
and sunrise times would end up meaning a lot more.

The post also doesn't seem to account for sleep debt. If you undersleep one
night, you may have to sleep longer than normal the next night to make up for
it.

~~~
learc83
From other articles I've read, there is some evidence to suggest that without
artificial light, humans tend to break sleep into two periods--waking up in
the middle of the night for a few hours.

Also drinking water before you go to sleep works as a natural alarm clock.

~~~
rayiner
I wonder how much of that is because of babies back in a time before
widespread birth control. I break sleep up into two periods too, but it's not
because of the lighting situation.

------
mathteacher1729
There are plenty of variables that influence "productivity" (however that is
defined) but I imagine that the amount of sleep required for maximum
productivity varies from person to person.

In my personal experience I've known people who require 3 to 4 hrs/night, and
others (myself included) who need between 8 and 9. During times when I'm
feeling my absolute best, physically and mentally, I get about 2 hours of
rigorous exercise, 8 to 10 hours of productive work, and roughly 8 hours of
sleep a day with the rest of the time filled in by preparing and eating food,
taking short breaks, hobbies, relaxing, etc.

Wild hypothesis: Most people would agree that the amount of sleep they require
to "feel and do their best" (assuming ideal exercise, diet, etc.) falls within
a normal distribution with mean 7 hours and standard deviation of +/- 3 hours.

\--- edit: spelling

~~~
ezy
"8 to 10 hours of reproductive work"

Yes, this would tire me out as well. :-)

Seriously, I've found that my normal schedule appears to be 7 hours solid,
with a 1.5 hr nap, depending. Without an alarm, I wake up 7 hrs later on the
dot (and can't get back to sleep), but then require a nap 8 hrs later to make
it through the day. I cannot sustain 6 hrs and a 2-3 hr nap for any length of
time (maybe a couple of days before I feel like crap).

I wonder how many different variations of these kinds of cycles there are
among the population and how they vary from the 1st to the 3rd world.

~~~
mathteacher1729
Hah, thank you for pointing out the spelling error. :)

As for the variations in the sleep cycles, I think it would have to do with
the length of time between REM cycles in individuals. I'm sure there's
individual variance in both the length of the cycles and how many cycles are
needed for "A good night's sleep".

------
randomsearch
I did some experimenting with this.

According to the UK's NHS website, adults need 7-9 hours a day, and it depends
on the individual.

I started with 9 hours, every single night, going to bed and getting up at the
same time. After less than a week, I started waking up 30-60 mins before my
alarm. So I cut it to 8.5 hours, and then 8 hours etc.

With some refinement, I found somewhere just over 8 works. I really don't
think it's any more complicated than that for most people.

The big problem is sleeping well and socialising a lot. The best approach I've
found to that is to bank an extra bit of sleep when you can, although this is
controversial.

My Dad always reminds me when I'm working hard: "the secret to stamina is
sleep." It's a pain, but it's essential if you want to do good work and stay
focused.

------
mwilliamson
There was an article in NYTimes a little while ago that suggested that getting
six hours of sleep a night for two weeks was equivalent to being awake for 24
hours:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17Sleep-t.htm...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17Sleep-t.html)

 _All told, by the end of two weeks, the six-hour sleepers were as impaired as
those who, in another Dinges study, had been sleep-deprived for 24 hours
straight — the cognitive equivalent of being legally drunk._

My personal experience certainly tells me that a solid eight hours a night
makes me far more productive than consistently getting six.

------
ranprieur
I'm more intersted in how much work I really need to sleep productively. That
is: how little work can I get away with doing and still have a comfortable
home and enough free time to sleep as much as I want?

------
11Blade
There are plenty of observational anecdotes of what works and what does not
work.

In order to make the best of your sleep cycle, it requires excellent sleep
hygiene.

1\. regularity is important. Going to bed and waking up at the same times
weekday and weekend is very helpful.

2\. sleep environment is important. simulating night time including shades,
turning off message beeps, comfort, slightly cool temperatures make a big
difference

3\. eating - avoiding eating at least 3-4 hours prior to bedtime. Your blood
sugar levels are easily disturbed and play a large part in your sleep cycle as
glucocorticoids are active in sleep cycle.

The amount you sleep has a lot to do with your daily stress level, physical
activity and damage your body takes.

hydrate like crazy, let your body perform its reparative miracles at night
including memory consolidation.

I have noticed that people who have constant low-level death-by-a-thousand-
cuts stress have many problems sleeping and getting quality sleep than those
who have short bursts of high level stress. We are victims of our always-on
world.

As another poster pointed out - Sleep is worth experimenting. Physical
activity/exercise during the day helps.

------
kayoone
For me this is really simple, i usually goto sleep at 11pm-12pm and wake up at
7-8am without an alarm or anything and i feel great, so i figure that 7-8hours
is optimal for me.

I try to keep that routine during the week, because if i stay up too long only
1 night, it makes it more difficult for the rest of the week. I am more of a
morning person anyway, rarely been very productive late at night.

------
vingt-2
It's my personal belief that humans need to sleep as long as their body wants
too. I'm the "No alarm clock" type of guy, and when I'm very tired from a long
week of short sleeps and exhaustive work, I sleep a lot more the first night
of the Weekend, and the day after compensate and sleep less, with no planning
whatsoever of my sleeping time. So I usually sleep 8 hours before waking up,
and I feel great, I don't know why. What I do know, is that if I set up an
alarm to wake me up before that time, say 90 minutes earlier, I would feel bad
for a good part of the morning. I'm quite sure a lot of people (the average
people) are experiencing the same natural time span of sleep. Hence the "myth"
that 8 hours are good for you. On a side note, my father sleeps a lot less
than I do, and most people do, and I can honestly say that he's more tired
than the average person in his surroundings. Now that might be linked to
stress, but I'm quite convinced that a lack of sleep induces stress, so...

------
saraid216
I've noticed that taking a sleep aid, regardless of the amount of sleep I
_actually_ get, is actually helpful for feeling rested when I wake up.

For instance, last Saturday night, no sleep aid, I fell asleep around 5am,
woke briefly at 10am, and woke completely at 1pm for a total of 7 hours. Last
night, I took some AdvilPM (instead of my usual 3mg melatonin) at 10:30p, was
in bed by 11p, and woke up this morning around 8a.

This might be because the sleep aid actually pushes me into waking up at the
end of a REM cycle; I can't ascertain that. But I've found that the amount of
sleep I get basically doesn't matter. Before I started with the sleep aids, it
was random and infrequent for me to feel rested. I've been taking them for
about a month now and it's sort of amazing how much better I feel.

(Also, as an aside, the first sleep aid I tried a year ago, a tablet of
Unisom, did absolutely nothing for me. Also, 5mg melatonin seems to be too
much for me. More data points.)

------
dobbsbob
Pro sports teams employ sleep doctors. They recommend 8-9hrs of sleep per
night uninterrupted.

[http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/sleep-doctor-
ha...](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/sleep-doctor-has-canucks-
peaking-at-right-time/article582351/)

------
kelnos
I'm always frustrated by suggestions to take a 20-30 minute nap during the
afternoon. I just can't do that. Even when I'm fairly tired and I go to bed
for the night, it can take me 45-60 minutes to fall asleep. There's no way I'm
going to fall into even a light sleep in 20-30 minutes in the afternoon when
I'm only vaguely (if at all) fatigued.

Then again, my "sleep hygiene" is fairly bad overall: I regularly go to bed
~4am, I can rarely sleep for more than 5 hours without waking up (and I don't
feel fully rested after that), and I usually spend 45-60 minutes snoozing my
alarm before I get up (10-11am). Hopefully I'm not typical. I should probably
get a sleep study done.

------
pasbesoin
Get your sleep. Give up something else.

Four days to a week of severe sleep deprivation has been demonstrated to push
the human body into a state of pre-diabetic crisis (per blood chemistry).

Another perspective: We _enjoy_ sleep. There might be a reason for that, eh?

~~~
beachstartup
a couple months ago i participated in a deadline push where i was deprived of
sleep for up to a week at a time.

it felt like my metabolism had completely stopped, and my body was storing
anything i ate as fat nearly immediately after i ate it. i was also bloated
and gassy all the time. my diet was reasonably healthy (i wasn't eating pizza
or anything like that, just normal foods like salads, chicken, occasional
steak, some carbs, etc.)

it was obviously not good. btw i'm 30 years old, never felt this way before
(haven't done a push like this since college age basically)

------
Semaphor
While I'd be useless for everything when I sleep 5h, my sweet spot is between
6 - 7.5h. I used to try and get 8h+ of sleep and was often tired.

Now I set my alarm for 6h after I go to sleep (leaving 15m to fall asleep),
have snooze set to 30m and max 3 times. Additionally I need to solve a simple
math equation so I don't mindlessly press snooze. That way my amount of sleep
varies on what my body feels it needs. Feeling way better since the change :)

Just an anecdote so take it however you want :)

~~~
felipebueno
I think you'll like this idea: <http://sefsar.com/the-alarm-clock-as-an-mmo-
game/> =)

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jole
I take power naps regularly almost every day, and it's true, after 15 mins of
nap, I'm much more fresh and awake than before nap. I usually take nap after
lunch, so between 13 - 15h.

About sleeping in general, I don't think that sleeping less than 8h per day is
a myth. Nikola Tesla was sleeping 3-4 hours per day!

Recently I have found a cool website, which helps you to decide when to wake
up or when to go to bed, so you can wake up fresh in the morning - sleepyti.me
- bedtime calculator

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gavinflud
_"Personally, I know that my productivity takes a dip at 3pm every day. This
is exactly where I place my nap, and it has been one of the most powerful ways
to bring my productivity back to 100% for a good 1,5 hour session after
that."_

I'm not sure how much science backs up most points in this post, but I can
definitely attest to this point. It's so simple yet so effective. A quick
20-30 minute nap and I am buzzing with energy for the next few hours.

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claudius
Does anyone take into account the kind of activity done during the day?

For example, if I go on cycling trips, I can do perfectly fine with 4-6 hours
of sleep per day. On the other hand, during revision times when I try to cram
as much as possible into my poor memory, I tend to sleep _a_ _lot_ , i.e.
12-14 hours per day (and work/revise for about 6, tops). Under normal
conditions, I still prefer 8-9 hours of sleep (and conversely ~10 of work).

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ExcitedByNoise
During the week I sleep for 4-6 hours. I go to the gym first thing in the
morning and after that I feel great. I sleep in a little bit more on the
weekend. Occasionally I will sleep a ton, maybe it's sleep debt.

However, prior to exercising regularly I required much more sleep. Not sure
this is anything but anecdotal, but I would be interested in seeing if fitness
levels and sleep requirements have any correlation.

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polskibus
So many comments and noone referenced the ultimate article on sleep subject?
<http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm> Read at least the first couple
of pages before you start using any "pro tips" that can be found on the web.
It's too easy to harm yourself, your productivity and learning ability.

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segmondy
Why do people ask such questions? There's no one right answer. It varies from
person to person. Everyone should experiment and find what's optimal for them.
If I'm not working out, I'm fine with 4-6hours. If I workout and stay active.
I need 8 hours.

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sgpl
There is a very informative talk on youtube [1] by Dr. William Dement, often
referred to as the father of sleep study. He founded the Sleep Research Center
@ Stanford University.

[1]<http://youtu.be/8hAw1z8GdE8>

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janezhu
Google Sleep is coming out with a new method to make people get more sleep
utilizing their multiple platforms:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c40V1bCvLAs>

It's called "bedtime guard."

------
Cacti
It's common sense that 8 straight hours per day is not ideal in general,
nevermind for everyone. If you check out your sleep rhythms (and with exercise
and without stimulants like alcohol, coffee, nicotine, etc.) the ideal is
usually something like:

1) sleep 5.5ish hours. 2) wake up at like 3am, work for an hour or two 3)
sleep for another 1.5ish hours 4) wake up at dawn and somewhere in the early
afternoon take a brief nap

The knowledge that 8 hours straight isn't ideal isn't the issue, it's fitting
it into your daily schedule that's the problem, for the same reason everyone
knows that 5 small meals per day is much better for you than 2.5 huge meals.

So you try to compromise, which usually means adjusting your sleeping block to
hit your REM rhythms well (i.e. 6.5 or 9 hours, give or take each way).

~~~
archangel_one
The ideal is waking up at 3am to do work? I can't think of many things that
seem less like common sense than that. In the absence of an alarm or anything
to wake me up sooner, I sleep straight through to the morning. I much prefer
it that way, to be honest.

~~~
Cacti
There's a term for it that I forget right now... morning sleep maybe? Second
sleep?

Whether you call that time when you're awake "work" or not is irrelevant---I
just meant that you're up doing something, even if its just reading or
thinking or writing or whatever.

It seems counterintuitive but when you're properly rested, fit, and not using
any real stimulatives/depressants, and you get in that rhythm, it works very
well and comes naturally. Instead of 1 time per day of sleeping and waking up
feeling great you get 3 times (pre-dawn, after dawn, then after your afternoon
nap).

You just have to be able to do all 3 regularly to make it work, otherwise you
skip a nap and you get screwed.

------
kamjam
_Quick last fact: Women need more sleep than men... Why? This is because
women’s brains are wired differently from men’s and are more complex_

Now this is something we have known for a long time! :-p

------
penetrarthur
Noone ever mentioned that your muscles need sleep for proper functioning. Try
sleeping 6 hours a day and working out 4 times a week. I give you two weeks.

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nsxwolf
The 8 hours "myth" seems to come from the fact that most people sleep about
that long when they don't set an alarm clock.

We are tuned by evolution.

~~~
theon144
That's not entirely correct, actually. Before artificial lightning got
introduced, people slept in two phases, and woke up in the middle of the night
to do things. There were even books that suggested things to do in the time
before the two sleeps (besides having sex and praying, that is).

More here: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep> and I apologize for
not finding a better source.

~~~
nsxwolf
Very interesting. I'd have thought exactly the opposite - that without
artificial lighting, it would make more sense to sleep off all the dark hours.

------
frozenport
Sleeping an extra hour is 4% of your day. If a 4% decreese in your time makes
you 8% more productive then it is a good deal.

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fakeer
Depends upon during which period you sleep. E.g. if you sleep between 10/11pm
to 6/7am, which is the best period to sleep IMHO, then 7-8 hours is very good.

But even if you sleep 10 hours from 2am to 12 in the afternoon, it's far from
enough or healthy.

A siesta is a nitro pack. Don't miss that in the game; especially if you live
in a hot climate. I feel like blessed with a lot of bliss after I rise form my
nap in my office sick bay(dorm/resting room/whatever) (I'm already smiling :-)
). My manager doesn't appreciate my 30-45 min nap everyday after lunch, I
don't give a damn!

>> _will be sleeping 24 years in our lifetime._

Indeed. So will we be peeing. So, what about recycle the water and keep it in
our system itself. Will save the time of drinking water and then peeing.
Double bonanza! This is absurd. You can't live life by remaining awake for
longer period. For one, your life shortens and number and period of sunsets,
sunrises and rains will not shift towards more if you start remaining awake
more.

>> _“Sleeping 8.5 hr. might really be a little worse than sleeping 5 hr.”_

Now, either my biological clock needs a fix and everybody I know around me or
his. Really.

My personal sleeping habit: I sleep at 11/12pm and almost everyday wake up at
6/7am. _I never set an alarm_ unless either I've a VVI appointment - like with
a doctor, a meeting or a flight to catch.

~~~
JakeSc
> But even if you sleep 10 hours from 2am to 12 in the afternoon, it's far
> from enough or healthy.

Why? Are you suggesting that the later in the day I fall asleep, the less
healthy the sleep becomes?

~~~
fakeer
Yes. That's what I am suggesting.

Look, I am not a doctor or neuro _something_ and what I have said above in
that statement is based upon my experience, other's and articles I've read.
Besides, it's a well known fact that you need to rest your body and mind by
sleeping at night at the _right_ time and not just anytime.

~~~
wikyd
This is not a well-known fact. What makes it the "right" time besides your
opinion?

~~~
j-kidd
According to ancient Chinese wisdom, a day is divided into twelve 2-hours
slices, and one is supposed to be:

\- falling asleep during the slice from 9pm to 11pm

\- remaining sound asleep during the slices from 11pm to 1pm and from 1am to
3am

\- waking up during the slice from 3am to 5am

~~~
tomflack
I feel if this ancient Chinese wisdom were accurate, you could substantiate it
with some kind of study, and the "Ancient Chinese wisdom" part would be merely
an amusing anecdote relevant to the data.

~~~
j-kidd
Feel free to get one of this <http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/黄帝内经> and knock
yourself out.

~~~
tomflack
While 我一点儿回看中文 I hope you appreciate that a poorly referenced Chinese
wikipedia article isn't really a contribution to this conversation.

~~~
j-kidd
The article is about how little study has been done about sleep:

> One of the biggest problems I’ve discovered is that sleep is such an over
> talked topic. We get the general idea that we know all about it: how much we
> need of it, how it impacts us and why this or that happens when we sleep.
> Once I took a step back to really think about where our knowledge about
> sleep comes from, I realized that nearly all of it is based on hear-say or
> what my mom told me when I was in elementary school.

I was merely quoting some well-known wisdom (among Chinese) (but not well-
followed) from an old book [1] written based on actual clinical experiences.
And it also happens to support fakeer's suggestion. If that's not up to some
scientific standards, at least it is one step above "hear-say" and "what my
mom told me", don't you think?

This is such a complicated subject, and I doubt there has been any concrete
study that can conclusively prove anything. For me, the point of the article
is to provoke exactly this kind of discussion.

[1] That's what the wikipedia article is about.

------
LatvjuAvs
And we have come to age when we stop trusting our bodies. We need papers and
researchers saying how much we should sleep, how to sleep best and when not to
sleep.

We stopped trusting in ourselves what to eat, how to sleep, how to walk and
how to breathe, and when to go and relieve ourselves.

Everything must be boxed and timed.

Disconnected we are.

