
Pizza Physics: Why Brick Ovens Bake the Perfect Italian-Style Pie - pseudolus
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/07/23/630544154/pizza-physics-why-brick-ovens-bake-the-perfect-italian-style-pie
======
dopeboy
The guy quoted, Kenji, contributes to Serious Eats and is active on reddit and
twitter. He's done a lot of work on comparing different flours, comparing
different pizza ovens, and also has good recipes. If you're a pizza buff, it's
well worth your time checking out his work.

I've made his hacker free pizza [0] which turns out decent. The hard truth,
though, is that you're never going to get the chewy, moist flavor from a
classic oven. It just doesn't get hot enough.

There's a lot of new companies coming out that mimic the brick ovens. I've
personally bought a RoccBox (per Kenji's review) and the pizzas come out great
[1]. It's able to push to 800F. Currently I use his recipe [2] for the dough
and want to get more practice nailing down hand kneading, presentation, etc.
Once I've mastered that, I want to start experimenting with different ratios
and then eventually move on to figuring out sour dough cultures.

[0] - [http://dopeboy.github.io/pizza-first-
attempt](http://dopeboy.github.io/pizza-first-attempt)

[1] - [http://dopeboy.github.io/roccbox-
pizza/](http://dopeboy.github.io/roccbox-pizza/)

[2] - [https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2012/07/basic-
neapolitan...](https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2012/07/basic-neapolitan-
pizza-dough-recipe.html)

~~~
awinder
this is fantastic, thank you for the great writing & information! I was
curious, is there a reason you go for KA over caputo? I migrated from KA ->
Caputo after getting into the recipes from [https://www.amazon.com/Flour-
Water-Salt-Yeast-Fundamentals/d...](https://www.amazon.com/Flour-Water-Salt-
Yeast-Fundamentals/dp/160774273X), I perceived a positive difference, but it
was anything but a blind experiment :D.

~~~
dopeboy
This is on my list of things to test. I've done 00 in the past but I wasn't
capturing my notes from those runs. I've recently gone with KABF because it's
easier to acquire and Jeff Varasano claims "...you can buy any bread flour
available at your local supermarket and you'll be ok." [0].

Interestingly, Jeff uses a blend of 00 and KABF which may be another
experiment to run.

[0] -
[http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm](http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm)

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elvinyung
So, this doesn't work by itself in most setups (it won't heat the top and the
bottom of the pizza at the same time), but I've seen a really cool trick used:
a plate of silicon carbide in a microwave oven absorbs microwaves and turns
them into heat (just like food, but it can withstand much higher
temperatures). This can reach extremely high temperatures (IIRC, 800C+), hot
enough to smelt tin.

~~~
londons_explore
When doing this, watch out for the impedance of the silicon carbide at
microwave frequencies.

Too low, and microwaves reflect off it, going back into the magnetron, causing
it to overheat and die.

Too high, and microwaves pass through it, reflect off the far wall of the
microwave back into the magnetron, causing it to overheat and die.

Either do this in a microwave that has overheat protection (generally the ones
which don't say in massive letters on the manual "DO NOT RUN EMPTY"), or put a
glass of water in with any 'experiments'.

------
awinder
Article mentions the method that I’ve found to be very good for home use:

    
    
      1. Baking steel in oven preheated to 500° for around an hour
      2. 5-6 minutes of baking
      3. Flip to broiler for 1-2 minutes

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mickronome
Being frustrated with burned top, and undercooked bottom I figured out that
using the broiler together with a couple 2-3 mm thick pre-heated aluminium
sheet that I placed the pizza on produced pretty good results. Not that I was
aiming for a particular style of pizza though, ymmv.

The sheet itself was placed on an ordinary oven rack somewhere below the
middle of the oven.

It seems to align somewhat with their findings. Since the aluminium sheet is
only heated by the air, the bottom doesn't get burned, but the slight extra
boost of initial heat cooks the bottom about right compared to the top. At
least for a bit thicker pizzas as the one I made.

You probably would want maybe an even thicker plate to get a really short
cooking times, like the 2min in the article. In any case, you will have to
wait for a little bit between each pizza for the plate to reach the
appropriate temperature.

~~~
radicalbyte
Just buy a pizza steel (like this:
[https://pizzasteel.com/](https://pizzasteel.com/)). Warm it in an oven at max
for 45 minutes, then turn the grill (broiler) on for 15 mins to get it as hot
as possible.

Then bake your pizza on it with the grill still on.

~~~
aequitas
Or make your own using a slab of stainless like
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldo56hGAzHA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldo56hGAzHA)
I can recommend Alex's channel for the more hacking/DIY minded chefs.

~~~
1024core
I just went to a part of the city (southern SF) with lots of workshops. Found
a steel piece that I liked, and bought it. The whole 50lb chunk of steel cost
me ~$50; it's sold by weight.

Then I soaked it in vinegar for a day, and all the rust/grime wiped right off.

Then I coated it with oil and put it in the oven at 500 to season it.

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timwaagh
19 minutes, 180 degrees C, with some steam. of course not pizzeria level or
anything professional but they are so much better than before because of the
extra moisture.

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pizzamyheart
The self cleaning cycle on an electric oven is close to 1000 degrees, and can
be used to cook pizza:

[http://staff.washington.edu/freitz/pizza/clean_cycle_pizza.h...](http://staff.washington.edu/freitz/pizza/clean_cycle_pizza.htm)

~~~
rootusrootus
But keep in mind that many people have tried and still failed to adequately
disable the locking mechanism on a self-cleaning oven, and had to watch (and
smell) as their pizza turned to a big pile of ash.

~~~
MisterTea
That almost happened to my mother who accidentally set the oven to clean with
lamb chops in there. My father went into the basement, turned the gas off and
somehow unlocked the oven door. Lamb chops were saved.

------
AndrewKemendo
About a decade ago I read a hack where you place a large ceramic pot saucer
(the thing that goes under a potted plant) on the top rack as high as it will
go, and using a well seasoned pizza stone on the bottom rack as far down as it
will go.

You then either turn on the broiler for an hour or if you can disable the
cleaning cycle lock turn it on the cleaning cycle.

I found that this actually worked, but was really hard to make work without
the long spatulas they use in commercial kitchens. It's also super easy to
burn yourself and your food because it's at the wrong height. It will also
heat your home up to a massive degree such that you need to let your entire
kitchen cool off for hours.

Not worth the trouble in my estimation.

------
a3n
Because they had brick ovens, and things that cooked well in brick ovens
"survived" as something to cook in a brick oven, while things that didn't,
didn't.

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justsomedood
Another option is to use a Kamado grill with a pizza stone. They can get very
hot, and with the charcoal it gives it a nice smokey flavor. You can add wood
chunks for extra flavoring as well. It's hard to eat pizza from the oven now
after we have starting cooking them this way!

~~~
joseph
This is what I do as well, and the results are amazing. Another benefit is
that with the right dough and temperature, the pizza bakes in two minutes or
less.

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ozten
We've been chasing awesome home pizza for almost 2 decades. Pizza stones,
steel, convection oven etc. Last year, I built an Alan Scott style brick oven
using [1] this book. It naturally does what we were trying to workaround with
lots of hacks.

I can confirm that it is really hard to make "wood fire" style pizza in a home
oven.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Bread-Builders-Hearth-Loaves-
Masonry](https://www.amazon.com/Bread-Builders-Hearth-Loaves-Masonry)

------
MisterTea
So the whole thing can be reduced to the fact that the brick supporting the
pizza transfers heat to the crust slower than steel. This allows the crust to
cook at an even pace with the water rich toppings.

It sounds like if you want brick oven pizza you don't need the entire baking
chamber to be constructed of brick. You simply need a brick platform on which
to place the pizza. The brick needs to be heated to temperature first though.

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dghughes
I use a pizza stone but I also turn on the convection feature of the oven. The
oven is set to 230C/450F middle or sometimes the top rack.

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vborovikov
I bake pizzas on a ceramic baking stone and I'm very satisfied with the
results. Before baking a pizza I preheat the oven with the stone in it to the
max level. Pizza is baked after 8-9 minutes in the oven.

My ratio for the pizza dough is 265 ml (gr) of water, 400 gr of flour. That
would be two pies 33 cm in diameter.

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toyg
Simply get a small outdoor clay oven, those work fine and are not that
expensive anymore.

~~~
Rjevski
Assuming you have an “outdoors”. When living in an apartment this isn’t
possible.

~~~
evgen
Check out uuni pizza ovens. They use wood pellets for fuel and in 10 minutes
of pre-heat mine gets to the necessary temp to cook a pizza in a minute or so.
Small enough to put on table on a balcony or fire escape and you can even pack
it in a carrying bag and take it on the road.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
Starting a fire on a fire escape sounds like it should be a prohibited
activity.

~~~
evgen
It probably is, was just trying to think of the equivalent for a place like
NYC where apartment balconies are less common than they are in CA. OTOH I am
pretty sure I have seen a small weber or two on fire escapes on occasion.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
Although, thinking about it, a fire escape should be the least likely part of
a building to catch fire.

------
dang
The paper this is based on had a big discussion a month ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17437229](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17437229)

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Spooky23
This isn’t unique to pizza. A French bread bakery also uses a brick oven, and
that oven takes days to break in and requires periodic brick replacement.

~~~
cup-of-tea
French bread is made using a special oven with a steam injection at the start
of the bake.

~~~
stevekemp
My own bread-making improved a lot once I started getting steam into the oven
at the start of the bake - initially via a misting-spray, and later via a
container of water.

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mnoah
Two pizza/physics related stories on the front page of HN in about two months.
Impressed

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Bromskloss
I suppose that sufficiently fine-grained temperature control would also do it.

------
thomasfedb
Is it only Americans that call a pizza 'pie'?

As an Australian it sounds wrong, very wrong - a pie has dished sides and
filling, not just topping.

~~~
MisterTea
New Yawker here: It's mainly a NY thing (and probably throughout the
northeast) used to describe a whole pizza vs individual slices. Though it's
rare to hear someone use the phrase "pizza pie" as it gets shortened to "pie".
When I order pizza I always ask "gimme a pie to go" and I get a whole pizza.

~~~
dahlueblojen
You know I love what your city did with pizza. I love how much it has
influenced pizza around the world.

However I'm getting tired of seeing NY-style pizza shops opening up here in
central Ohio. Some chain that focuses on NY-style relocated their headquarters
here (from previously being in NY!).

We've already got our own style (central Ohio, wider Ohio region as far as I
know). I don't want poor imitations of NY style taking over.

~~~
jrs95
Sure Sbarro’s are starting to pop up more but that’s largely just because they
want to compete with the other chains. The only one of those doing an Ohio
style pizza being Donatos.

Decent NY style pizza can be found here as well though. Sarefino’s at North
Market does a pretty good job. There’s not any risk to Ohio style pizza as far
as I can tell though, the overwhelming majority of independent pizza places
still serve this almost exclusively.

~~~
dahlueblojen
"the overwhelming majority of independent pizza places still serve this almost
exclusively"

The old neighborhood independent ones, sure. But newer developments (that
aren't just catering to campus) are seemingly all NY-style.

To be honest I'm probably less annoyed with having the option than I am with
that we have our own stuff, so let's celebrate that instead of copying NY and
LA and being a purely derivative culture.

If I want NY-style pizza, I'm going to NY. Anything else is a poor imitation.

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hutattedonmyarm
The site just redirects me to their GDPA choice page. After clicking the
option to not sell my soul I land on their plain text site (which itself isn’t
bad, it loads amazingly fast), but only to the startupage instead of the
article. That’s just a list of articles, that one not included, and no option
to search. Well fuck it

~~~
pedrocr
Here you go:

[https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=630544154](https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=630544154)

Someone needs to write an extension for this. The id number is on the URL so
it's a trivial script. Activating Firefox's reader view makes text-only NPR
articles not only fast but look great too.

~~~
hutattedonmyarm
Thank you!

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ythn
> The ideal Italian pizza, be it Neapolitan or Roman, has a crisp crust
> flecked with dark spots

That might be true of Naples, but definitely not Rome. The perfect Roman pizza
is rectangular focaccia style.

