

Ask HN: Review a startup - Grafighters - Jordanian

Hey guys we are looking for a helping hand from the HN community.<p>We are building a game that aims to bring your drawings to life exactly the way you envisioned them. graFighters is an online fighting game for your hand drawn characters. By taking a picture of your drawing with you phone and going through a quick process we can bring your character to life to battle other drawings on the site. The interesting part is that you don't control the character, they take on a life/attitude/stats/abilities all on their own based on our systems analysis of how it was drawn. We are calling this algorithm "Cornelius".<p>I'm reaching out to you guys for feedback on the concept and the potential to spread the Kickstarter link to people who might be interested. This algorithm has been underway for a year and it is not cheap, so we are looking to raise 20,000. Thanks!<p>graFighters on Kickstarter - http://kck.st/cnTzcP<p>Main Site- http://www.graFighters.com<p>Footage from the Demo - http://bit.ly/9J1wdc<p>More videos - http://vimeo.com/user1881676/videos<p>Feedback, criticism, verbal abuse, and donations will all be highly valued.
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njl
There is something really cool and compelling here, but I found it deeply
disappointing that I wouldn't be controlling my drawings in battle. That makes
it less of a game and more of an animated art gallery.

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dave_chenell
I'm really glad you brought that up, many of people say that when they first
hear the idea. However, we assure you by not controlling your drawing, its
actually much cooler. Its not really about me vs you, its about my ninja vs
your dinosaur. We are bringing these drawings to life. By letting people
control the characters it would belittle the intelligence behind the game and
be like every other fighting game out there. It is much more rewarding to see
your character preform an epic karate kick because you have drawn long legs
and a headband rather than just pressing the B button. Its more of a
strategy/design/creation game rather than a traditional fighting game. All the
fun is had with a pencil and paper.

~~~
martinkallstrom
The point is that you will also very often see your drawing getting roundedly
ass-kicked without being able to do anything about it. In the demo movie you
showed I was deeply rooting for the gullible girl with huge arms but had to
see her getting beaten over and over. After putting that much time into your
first character, only to see her not being fit for fight, I don't think anyone
will be coming back.

Providing a quality product means meeting people's expectations. You say that
many people expect to control their character, so let them. You're in awe of
your excellent algorithm, but people are not going to be so happy when they
don't get your algorithm on the first try.

You could still map different moves to different keystrokes depending on the
output from your algorithm and make the result depend on the characteristics .

Last but not least, don't look down on "every other fighting game out there".
The only users that will be interested in your game will be people that are
deeply in love with every other fighting game. They will expect to be able to
use their honed fighting game skills in your game as well, but with the
awesome addition of bringing their dream character to life.

Above all, they will not get back to the drawing board when their awesome
character is shredded to pieces by a simulation over and over.

~~~
dave_chenell
"very often see your drawing getting roundedly ass-kicked without being able
to do anything about it"

In reality you are able to do alot about it. Aside from the actual fight,
everything you do controls what will happen. How your draw, who you choose to
fight, what arena you fight in, what items or weapons you select etc etc.
Simply because you are not pressing buttons at the time of action does not
mean all hope is lost and everything will become a random simulation. A la the
video, we are working on the balance of the game.

"The only users that will be interested in your game will be people that are
deeply in love with every other fighting game"

Disagree, almost all of the people who have sent us sketches are not from the
typical gamer crowd. They are drawn to the fact they don't have to control
them, it takes the pressure off.

"You say that many people expect to control their character, so let them."

This is a really interesting argument that I go both ways on. History has
shown both times where it pays to listen and times it pays to ignore your
users requests and show them something new and better that they never even
thought of. "Providing a quality product means meeting people's expectations"
Or exceeding them :)

Thanks for your feedback though, you bring up some interesting points. We
aren't ruling out controlling your characters forever, but for the initial
launch we think it will ruin the purity of the game. We are exploring adding
more decisive elements without adding live "control" if you know what I mean.
Mini games etc.

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jordanmessina
Clickable: graFighters on Kickstarter - <http://kck.st/cnTzcP>

Main Site- <http://www.graFighters.com>

Footage from the Demo - <http://bit.ly/9J1wdc>

More videos - <http://vimeo.com/user1881676/videos>

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Flux61
I'm a fan of the complete ingenuity of this entire concept. We've all seen and
played the timeless smash and grab player-controlled games that have dominated
our obsessions since Pong. However, in this day and age with video games
becoming more and more complex, I love this simple idea. Instead of letting
the player with the best reflexes, or an ability to seek out glitches in game
play become the best, this concept attacks it from a completely different
means. A game where creativity, humor, engineering, and street smarts all
combine into one to form a brand new niche for gamers.

I've read all of the comments thus far and I have to say that I agree with
many points on both sides. However, I would have to definitively say that if
you want to control your player, this concept isn't for you. This is of course
through the basic player moves that so many people are used to. Click A for
jump, B for attack, different combo moves etc. Yes this appeals to many for
great gaming, but I would argue that it is a gaming genre that may be at it's
absolute peak. Even with today's most complicated games, there is a certain
amount of creativity, street smarts and ingenuity in how you play the game.

What I love most about these arguments is that the creator (argued most
notably for by dave_chenell) is telling you that you in fact DO have control
over your character and the fight. It's just a higher level of control than
one is used to. Basically, the 'player' gets to play 'god' in creating
characters. By changing the slightest drawing, weapon accessory, and
proportions (as is my understanding of this algorithm), one has complete
control in how one should act in an all out brawl. If you want your gorilla to
have great grappling moves, provide him with powerful arms, etc. I would argue
that this feature gives complete control to the gamer.

This game type wouldn't be for anyone, that is certain. However, look at the
massive amount of popularity games like Armadillo Run
(<http://www.armadillorun.com/>) have received. You don't have any control
over the armadillo in this either. One must use their knowledge of physics,
materials, and common sense in order to build a device to complete the
objective, like a puzzle. This graFighters idea seems very similar; spend some
time playing to learn how the game works, and it'll be just as addicting.

I understand that this concept isn't for everyone and it'll be tough to spread
word to gamers who are willing to give it a shot based just on concept alone.
But let me ask these gamers something. How many times have you been bored
maybe in class or talking on the phone, and you doodle some complex robot.
Maybe you give him a lightsaber for good measure. Wouldn't it be nice to put
him to some use instead of tossing him away with your class notes?

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woodall
There was an old game "kind of" like this. It had EVERY character imaginable;
like a Waffle, DBZ, Street Fighters, Pirates, Ninjas, EVERYTHING. I'll find
the name and post it if anyone is interested.

I think it would be more appealing if you let the people control their
characters. The problem with this is it will require more CPU work on your
part- expensive for a start up. You could have them scan the characters in and
use a "wire-frame", like the use in art, to lay out the different body parts.
You could even use some OCR to see it the character had legs or if it is on
some kind of "tracks".

Awesome art, awesome idea, can't wait to see a working version.

P.S. RazaBlaza is too powerful

Edit: About the wire framing and OCR. Instead, to make your life easier, you
could have your own custom character creator. Kind of defeats the purpose of
bringing your drawings to life, but hell of a lot easier.

~~~
dave_chenell
Thanks alot for the input. Is the game your thinking of MUGEN? it was an old
school open source fighting game <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.U.G.E.N>

~~~
woodall
That is it!

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JangoSteve
This looks really awesome. I mean, I really like this. I can't wait to see how
my little guy will develop and behave.

EDIT: The $5000 pledge on your Kickstarter page says that you get to design a
character that defies the visual rules other players are held to. But I didn't
see any visual rules on the site, and the "Send us a sketch" button just opens
an email. I'm afraid my character may violate some rules. Just let me know.
/EDIT

It's a late night in the office, so I sent you a whiteboard sketch of my
company's robot mascot, Jango Webbot:
<http://cdn2.alfajango.com/images/jango_web.jpg?1279741285>

I would love to see him battle our other mascot, Alfa Automabot:
<http://cdn1.alfajango.com/images/alfa_web.jpg?1279741285>

Funny story, my co-founder and I designed these guys to be sort of an odd
couple, so this seems like the perfect outlet for them! I had actually
forgotten all about these little mascot guys until just now.

~~~
dave_chenell
Right now we aren't limiting drawings with rules because we are gathering data
for all the different types of drawings that can be thrown at it. On
Kickstarter the reward means you get a character that can pretty much do
anything you can imagine, because we can program specific moves for it that
are not in the move pool.

~~~
UmbrellaExile
To clarify, the "drawing rules" are exactly that - the rules right now are
that you upload a drawing and it becomes a graFighter.

A graFighter that "defies the rules" would be one with animation, with
multiple forms, with unique behaviors - things you can't convey in a sketch.

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Jobzle
In my opinion, if your algorithm is that solid and unique, that's your real
selling point.

This whole "you can't control the player" is a bad idea, it doesn't drive the
usual gamer and you're going to find that maybe it's exciting for people to
watch their creature fight the first time but there's no repeat value in that
(watching the same moves over and over and over again just isn't exciting).

The perfect blend of your idea and the wishes of the masses is to have your
'Cornelius' algorithm analyze the drawing then return a skill set. So it gives
the player 6 movies + 10 combo moves based on their drawings attributes. You
get a combination of the "my ninja vs. your ninja" as well as the ability to
actually influence the outcome and promote replay value.

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tansey
I really like the idea. I have a very similar idea on my to-do stack, but with
one major difference: the characters would be controlled with neural networks.
Then the game becomes about not just drawing your character, but also
designing sparring arenas that they can train on, etc. It's more of a you-
draw-it real-time pokemon'ish game.

> it is not cheap, so we are looking to raise 20,000

Why not just submit to YC then? You'll get $20K and much better publicity and
VC connections.

~~~
dave_chenell
We are part of a new incubator in Syracuse at the moment
(<http://www.syracusestudentsandbox.com>). The older VC crowds we have pitched
to really cant understand what we are doing and why it could be huge. We opted
to experiment with crowdsourcing from people who "get it". We will let you
know how it goes.

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instakill
I think the idea of not having control over your fighter is great. The doubts
about people returning because their fighter will get his ass kicked is
fallacious, I think. It'll just incentivize you to come up with a better
character, which means that as long as sequential incentives to keep returning
back the ability to do so, the non-control acts as a positive game
dynamic/mechanic.

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gimpmaestro
Donations for a startup? Are you serious? You should be offering equity if you
are going to profit from this.

~~~
dave_chenell
Why is that so ridiculous? The idea behind Kickstarter is to have people pay
for something they want before its built. Actual customers funding you is much
more powerful that some VC's who think people will one someday buy what you
build.

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wicknicks
Wow, this looks very awesome. You guys are doing something very interesting.

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markkat
This is a very fun idea. I really hope to see this come to fruition.

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kazuya
Mmmmm, smells like MediaMolecule.

