
Where to hate daylight saving time and where to love it - mmastrac
http://andywoodruff.com/blog/where-to-hate-daylight-saving-time-and-where-to-love-it/
======
exDM69
I would have liked to see maps of the whole world. I live in Helsinki, 60
degrees North, and the sunrise today is 08:40 and the sunset is 15:33. It's
still going to get _a lot_ darker before the solstice.

Quite frankly, at this point it doesn't really matter if it is offset one hour
in either direction. But the abrupt change of DST really takes a toll. The
timing is also unfortunate, because on the last days of summer time there's
still a bit of sunlight after regular work hours, but the change to winter
time practically removes the last lit hours from the day if you work somewhat
regular office hours.

I would like to see the daylight savings time abolished and going to permanent
summer time here.

~~~
tempestn
> I would like to see the daylight savings time abolished and going to
> permanent summer time here.

Daylight savings time _is_ summer time. Sounds like you would like to run on
daylight savings time year-round (as would I).

~~~
masklinn
> Sounds like you would like to run on daylight savings time year-round (as
> would I).

Most Europeans (and probably americans?) would definitely benefit from
shifting their timezones by 1h and keeping it there. Hell, Central European
Time could probably shift by 2h, the timezone goes from Spain to Poland,
Warsaw currently gets sundown at 1530! (Lille which is roughly the same
latitude gets sundown at a more respectable 1647)

~~~
vetinari
The fun is, that in Warsaw the delta between CET and solar time is much less,
than in Lille.

See:
[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2572317/Are-Y...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2572317/Are-
YOU-living-sync-Amazing-map-reveals-manmade-timezones-countries-false-sense-
sun-rises.html)

(Yes, dailymail, but at least they have a nice maps).

~~~
masklinn
> The fun is, that in Warsaw the delta between CET and solar time is much
> less, than in Lille.

Which is exactly the issue. We don't actually want solar noon at noon because
nobody sleeps from say 8PM to 4PM, or 9PM to 3AM.

------
jedberg
In 1974 the US basically had DST the entire year to save energy. Being on year
round DST would save us the most energy, because most people use energy at
night for artificial lighting.

The main argument against it is that "kids have to go to school in the dark."
Well you know what? Look at these maps. How many kids _already_ have to go to
school in the dark? Why does it matter? Even the kids would rather have more
light _after_ school so they can play.

And if you ask a farmer about it, they'll tell you "the animals don't read
clocks". To them it doesn't really matter, they get up with the sun regardless
of what the clock says.

~~~
zanny
Tangentially related, there are also studies showing that schools that force
kids to get up at 6:30 also produce lower performing students because kids
stay up late everywhere and then never get enough sleep.

If you want to keep the public school work week, it would make significantly
more sense being 9-5 or even 10-6 Monday to Thursday rather than 8-3 Monday to
Friday.

We aren't going home to work the farm, and we aren't setting insanely early
sleep schedules to get up with the sun to till the fields. These ancient time
systems cause legitimate harm for the sake of posterity.

~~~
bryanlarsen
Note that those studies apply to High Schools. Young kids are notoriously
early risers.

Here in Ottawa, Canada, they've stumbled on a good solution. To save money on
busing, they've staggered the school start times to allow bus sharing. In my
area, that means the buses drop elementary kids off for an 8 o'clock start and
then pick up high school kids for a 9 o'clock start.

As far as your suggestion of running four 8 hour school days instead of five 6
hour days, I certainly hope you're talking about high school. 6 hours is
already too long for my 6 year old, I can't imagine 8 hours.

~~~
nucleardog
Whereas ours did the opposite... Pick up the high school students for an ~820
start, run back out and grab the younger kids for a 900 start.

------
imron
Those light map images are based on the premise that 5pm is a reasonable time
for sunset, which is something I disagree with.

I like DST because I like light evenings. I can put up with dark mornings, but
don't take away my light evenings.

~~~
mootothemax
>Those light map images are based on the premise that 5pm is a reasonable time
for sunset, which is something I disagree with.

When daylight savings rolls around each year, I always make the same comment:
_god it feels civilized to be going home when it 's still light outside_!

~~~
lagadu
At least you live in a place where DST makes a difference. It doesn't help a
bit in northern Europe, I'm pretty sure we only do it to keep time parity with
central Europe.

------
ajmurmann
I disagree with the premise of this article. I don't care if the sun is out
when I have to wake up or not. I dislike doing something incredibly dramatic
like changing what time it is and having to force myself into a different
rythm because some people might or might not be happy that now there might or
might not be more sun in the evening.

~~~
grecy
> _I don 't care if the sun is out when I have to wake up or not._

This isn't about what you - or for that matter millions of people - do or
don't want to do. After all, if we only did what we wanted to do, none of us
would pay tax.

This is about reducing energy consumption by attempting to have people sleep
when the sun is down, and be awake when the sun is up.

~~~
echaozh
Even if energy can be saved... why not make the companies set different office
hours at different times of the year, rather than make people reset their
watches? If companies' office hours are not to be messed with, why are the
people's lives?

I really cannot understand the logic behind this. People should be free to
choose if they want to sleep more when the sun is down, right? And with
Capitalism, you should tune the price of energy consumption to make people
save more, instead of making strange laws.

~~~
grecy
> _If companies ' office hours are not to be messed with, why are the people's
> lives?_

Daylight savings isn't messing with anyone's life, it's changing the arbitrary
read-out on a human-invented device, nothing more.

> _People should be free to choose if they want to sleep more when the sun is
> down, right?_

Of course, anyone can sleep as much or as little as they please. There might
be school and employment consequences to that, but you can still do it.

You can also drive a car as fast as you please - but there might also be
consequences to that.

~~~
ryandrake
> Daylight savings isn't messing with anyone's life, it's changing the
> arbitrary read-out on a human-invented device, nothing more.

If you work or have kids in school, you need to adjust your sleep pattern to
match the readout on that human-invented device. Look at small children and
retirees: DST does not affect them because they wake up whenever they want to.
Seems to me that the root problem is that businesses and schools demand people
arrive at work the same time regardless of sunlight conditions. It's stupid
that billions of people change their measuring devices twice a year instead of
just having businesses pick "summer hours" and "winter hours".

~~~
yen223
Amen. DST feels a lot like trying to combat obesity by changing the kilogram,
so that everyone weighs the same. It doesn't affect people's actual weights,
just like how DST doesn't affect the amount of daylight we receive.

~~~
kspaans
It does, for you personally, if you sleep through that daylight or are stuck
inside for most of it.

------
CWuestefeld
My complaint with DST isn't so much about when we have to get up, but about
what it does to commuting with respect to sun position.

For anyone who lives to the west of their job - and that seems to be a lot of
people - and has relatively normal office hours, you're going to go through a
time period in the spring and fall where the sun is in drivers' eyes as
they're commuting. In the morning, just after the sun rises, it will be
blinding drivers going east, and in the evening, before sunset, it'll blind
drivers going west. Given the geography, there's not much to be done about
that. If we just wait a couple weeks (for any given person), the times will
progress enough so that they'll no longer be affected.

But when you throw DST into the equation, it resets progression of sunrise and
sunset times. After we've made it through those couple weeks where the sun is
in your eyes, suddenly the time change hits, pushing the time back into your
commuting drive again.

Thus, the number of days I need to spend in dangerous driving conditions, with
myself and other drivers partially blinded by the rising or setting son, is
more-or-less doubled by DST. It seems to me to be a significant safety issue.

~~~
Retric
I highly recommend wearing sunglasses while driving. This does not eliminate
the sun issue, but it helps not just deal with the sun but also those few
seconds of temporary blindness when you get reflections.

That said, the most useful thing I found was to change my commute around glare
issues.

~~~
degenerate
I don't like sunglasses, so I had windshield tint installed instead:
[http://i.imgur.com/Npc7z1D.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/Npc7z1D.jpg) (not my car,
just a sample)

~~~
Retric
Careful, that's illegal in several states.

------
freemanindia
As someone who lives in India (no DST) but interacts frequently with people in
the USA. I _hate_ it. Maybe it was rational before mass globalization, but now
that many of us interact regularly across time zones and national borders it
complicates time, which should be sacrosanct.

~~~
DrScump
Bear in mind that the USA is at higher latitude, so day-length variations are
far more pronounced as you approach the solstices.

------
jrapdx3
Opinions about DST vary, perhaps reflecting how a person's "internal clock"
functions. Biological differences play a role, some people are natural early
risers, others tend to stay up late. I'm in the latter category so I strongly
favor DST, but I can see how others might hate it.

It's exacerbated living north of the 45th parallel. Officially we get about 16
hours of daylight/nighttime at the solstices. However, it's actually much
worse than the raw data suggests.

Living in the shadow of hills to the west, among tall trees, in a rainy
climate with frequent heavily overcast skies, after DST goes off, by 3:00PM
the sky is already dark. No wonder a lot of people around here look forward to
March and return of DST.

The morning effect is minimal, winter sunrise comes quite late. At year's end
it's after 7:50AM, so it's dark on the way to work no matter what the weather
and DST would not make the morning commute any dimmer.

OTOH >16 hours of summer daylight is amazing and delightful. The place just
comes alive. While we can't legislate the seasons, keeping DST longer than we
do would at least be a small token of compensation.

------
NDizzle
5pm is a horrible time for sunset. When are you going to play catch with your
kids?!

~~~
bryanlarsen
When do I play catch with my kids? In the summer time. In the winter, I go
skating with my kids after dark, which works well under the flood lights.

------
dikaiosune
Living in one of the places that doesn't do DST, it's always struck me as
bonkers to go through that twice a year.

------
iopq
Ugh, waking up at 6:30 AM. I've done it once, never again. I refuse to work
for a company where I have to wake up at 6:30 AM to get to office.

------
tmd83
Since its hackernews I think its fair to comment that I hate it because it
makes the already difficult time programming even more difficult. Now I don't
just have to save timezone somewhere but also the offset (to be full proof) of
the time. How about the UI? Does anyone know of a timepicker UI pattern (I
haven't seen any) that allows you to input the duplicate hour during DST > ST
switch?

I don't have to suffer through this change but it seems like something that
will affect people's rhythm a lot and make them mess up things twice a year.
What would be the health and other cost of that would be?

Hmm just thought about it and looked it up. It seems that people use ~10%
their energy budget in lighting. So I don't see even in terms of energy usage
that being worth it? Specially since using better lights would have a much
more savings.

[1]
[https://nplainsnorthernnotes.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/gra...](https://nplainsnorthernnotes.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/graphic-2011-04-home-
energy-use-legacy.jpg)

~~~
7Z7
> _fool_ proof?

------
jkot
There is nothing to love about DST. It just messes up sleep cycle and daily
routine. When you will have small children you will understand.

~~~
imron
The flip side is having an extra hour of daylight in the evening to be able to
go outside and play catch/whatever with your children.

~~~
yen223
There's no "extra" hour of daylight. The sun doesn't care how we set our
clocks.

~~~
imron
If I get home at 7 and it's dark then it doesn't really lend itself to going
outside.

In daylight savings I still get home at 7 but now there is an hour of daylight
left.

So even though there is still the same amount of daylight in the day, due to
the rescheduling of the work day with respect to daylight, there is an extra
hour of daylight _in the evening_

~~~
yen223
Wouldn't it be easier to redefine office hours so that people can go home at
6, instead of redefining everyone's concept of time?

~~~
imron
Nowadays I work for myself, so yes it is easier to redefine _my_ office hours.
Changing the office/school hours of all my friends/family/children however is
not feasible.

It really is an all-or-nothing sort of proposition. Can you imagine for
example if half the businesses in an area ran on 9-5 and the other half ran on
8-4? You would get far more chaos than the minimal disruption caused by DST.

Now you might argue that society shouldn't be run based on the whims of people
who want daylight in the evening, and you'd have a fair point. The counter to
that is that likewise it shouldn't be run based on the whims of people who
don't.

Luckily I live in a democracy and if, based on the will of the people, the
state government where I lived decided to rescind DST then so be it and while
I wouldn't like it, I would accept it.

However, I would wager that the majority of people where I live _prefer_
daylight savings and so having it is the will of the people.

------
empressplay
I live near Melbourne and if there wasn't DST, in mid-summer the sun would
rise at 4:30am. Pass.

~~~
arethuza
Even with British Summer Time the sun rises at 4:30 in the summer here in
Scotland (and we're not that far North) - what's the problem with it?

------
bufordsharkley
The biggest flaw with this visualization is that it doesn't allow you to
expand DST to the entire year, or increase it to double/triple/quadruple DST.
I assume that it would simply be too heartbreakingly beautiful to witness it,
and it was withheld for our own good.

------
retroencabulato
In the US

~~~
Loque
aaa there we go, someone else disappointed to read the article and scroll down
to see the interactive map is a map the US only...

------
amai
Russia had continuous day light savings time from 2011 to 2014
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Russia#Daylight_saving...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Russia#Daylight_saving_time)).

"However, many Russians in the north complained about darker mornings in
winter." So they went back and permanently adopted winter hours
([http://www.bbc.com/news/world-
europe-29773559](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29773559)).

------
brc
Permanent DST - aren't we just arguing to move the prime meridian 30 degrees
to the west and pushing everyone's time zone out?

Or would it just be easier to get everyone to agree to go to work an hour
earlier?

Where I live we have no DST. As I live at the eastern edge of the time zone,
the sun comes up at 4:30 am and is all done by 7pm on the summer solstice.
It's a stupid time zone. But efforts to get DST implemented have been very
difficult and strongly resisted from people living further west.

------
Kiro
> but I’ll grant that waking up before the sun is miserable

Uhm, where I live this is inevitable most winter months. I don't see any
problems with it and seldom hear anyone complain.

------
upofadown
Bah, if we want to start work, say, an hour after sunrise we can just do that
now. We can trivially make an alarm clock that calculates sum position at a
particular location. There is no technical reason that we need to argue over
changing local time some even number of hours when we can do it exactly.

------
cies
I hate DST for a whole other reason: politicians "changing time" seems like a
ridiculous idea to me. I think office/school hours should sometime opt for a
summer/winter schedule instead.

But then I would also not mind to have the whole world on the UTC clock
instead of timezones :)

------
reustle
The interactive graph part isn't loading for me due to some HTTPS error

~~~
bad_user
You probably have HTTPS Everywhere installed.

------
emergentcypher
The entire idea of daylight savings time is idiotic. In a thousand years we
will be looked back on and they will sneer at our lack of intelligence for
adopting such a silly ritual.

------
Asmod4n
Always hate it, why? It kills people.

