
Elon Musk reopening Tesla factory despite Alameda County order - heshiebee
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891
======
dannyw
The reasons for not restarting production seem to be dogmatic and not evidence
driven. Tesla is running the factory at a 30-40% capacity, and the Fremont
factory has 5.3 million square feet of manufacturing and office space. Tesla
claims their plan will ensure 6 ft of distance for every employee, and PPE and
masks are provided and mandatory. Even the HVAC is changed to optimise for
fresh air turnover and filters are changed on a regular basis.

Tesla's full list is available here:
[https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/T...](https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/Tesla-
Return-to-Work-Playbook.pdf)

A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be than a Home Depot or a Costco, and
many other businesses open in California today. We aren't talking about
sporting events here: we're talking about some of the lowest risk and
unavoidable interactions.

Carmakers are also defined as a COVID19 critical industry, and every other
carmaker manufacturing in the United States is either open, or capable of open
today. This puts Tesla at a serious disadvantage.

This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first
safety driven approach. That is something I cannot support.

~~~
geofft
> _This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first
> safety driven approach. That is something I cannot support._

"Support" is a bit of an overloaded word. I do agree with you that I do not
support a government policy that isn't evidence-driven. But I do support the
_ability_ of the government to set policy without convincing every one of its
constituents of the validity of its evidence.

As a simple analogy, perhaps the speed limits for highways in my state are
capped at 60 mph, but there's evidence that the roads can safely accommodate
drivers at 70 mph, they're well-maintained, they are built to appropriate
safety standards, etc. I wouldn't support the government keeping the speed
limit at 60 mph based on flimsy evidence. But I also wouldn't object to the
government enforcing the speed limit as it is - because the end result of
saying that every driver has the right to make their own private judgment of
whether the speed limit laws are validly reasoned is that there is no speed
limit anymore.

~~~
mgolawala
You must also take into account the history of intentional civil disobedience
where the government has over reached and the population simply reaches the
point where it refuses to comply.

Prohibition is obviously a prime example of this, but if you consider various
laws that once existed or are currently on the books but no longer enforced
(think laws pertaining to racial segregation, sexuality, drug use, and such)
you realize that being a law abiding citizen does not mean you are no longer
allowed to think for yourself. Read up on "Jury Nullification" or "Jury
Equity".

~~~
cmdli
Civil disobedience typically involved still getting punished as a matter of
protest to change public opinion. If Elon Musk is doing this as civil
disobedience, he is using the resources of Tesla and the forced compliance of
his workers in order to make a political statement. I don't really see that as
better.

Instead, it seems that Musk is doing this just because he thinks he can get
away with it, or because he is simply angry with the elected officials of his
county. In such a situation, Tesla and Elon Musk should rightfully be punished
for their actions.

~~~
kelnos
To be fair, Musk's tweet especially says if anyone is to be arrested for this,
it should be him.

> _to make a political statement._

I see it as more a business decision, and only secondarily a political
statement.

~~~
dragonwriter
> To be fair, Musk's tweet especially says if anyone is to be arrested for
> this, it should be him

To be fair, you can't both commit a crime and pay other people to commit
crimes and get them out of the legal consequences by tweeting that you are the
only one who should be arrested.

~~~
101404
Not sure about the rules in the US out that country. But it's it really a
_crime_ to go to work? Especially some national law and state law seem to
allow it. Just the county's burocrats seem to prohibit it.

~~~
dragonwriter
> But it's it really a crime to go to work?

Yes.

> Especially some national law and state law seem to allow it

State law makes it a crime to violate orders of county public health officers
for the control of communicable disease.

~~~
cbar_tx
the crime here is county officials engaging in literal economic repression.
It's not a matter of when the government orders whatever is says this week.

The fact of the matter is that if a business feels it's time to reopen, it
should do so, cautiously of course.

Neither the employees or customers are forced to go. They have a right to
refuse. They don't have a right to dictate what others decide to do with their
business

------
GhostVII
I actually agree with some of what Elon is saying around COVID - it is
probably reasonable for the Tesla factory to open up partially this week, and
shelter in place has gone on for too long without any proper justification in
many areas. But his reasoning and actions surrounding this are completely
insane. He spreads conspiracy theories about hospitals overcounting cases for
profit, says that COVID is just like the flu, predicted no cases by the end of
April, and then does this and opens up without approval, violating the law.

His fans seem to think he is some kind of genius, but based on what he has
said about COVID he doesn't really seem that smart, or at least not well
informed at all. Just by looking at the deaths year over year, it is clear
that if anything, COVID cases are undercounted. And his claims that the
shutdown of his factory are illegal are blatantly false. I don't know if he
just doesn't know what he is talking about, or if he does and is just saying
all this stuff for his personal gain. I suspect the former, but idk. This
seems like a somewhat common pattern, where very successful and seemingly
intelligent people have a few very obviously incorrect beliefs (ex. Steve Jobs
and his fruit diet). Maybe they assume that success in one area implies
knowledge in unrelated areas (I know I am guilty of this myself sometimes).

~~~
tjos
You can hate or love Elon, it has no effect on the law. What he’s doing is
lawful. Executive orders that deprive natural rights are unconstitutional and
thus illegal.

The entire concept of natural rights like the Bill of Rights means they pre-
existed the government and society. You can only deprive a person of these
rights through some lawful process. Society is still functioning; we’re not in
martial law. Yes people should willingly comply but you can’t force them to.

~~~
chillwaves
Nothing you are saying is legally correct. These issues can only be decided
through litigation, which has not occurred.

~~~
tathougies
They don't need to be legally correct if the voters believe it. That's the
point. The state governments and the federal ones exist in so far as the
populace decides they are legitimate.

------
6gvONxR4sf7o
So Musk tweeted "If anyone is arrested, I ask that it only be me," but that
really doesn't seem reasonable (and is super arrogant). If I pressure some
friends into committing a crime, they are still culpable. Assuming wikipedia's
accurate [0], duress is only a valid excuse if someone's threatening you with
serious bodily harm or death.

'I would like you all to commit crimes, and I ask the government to not hold
you responsible,' is so arrogant. He doesn't get to dictate how the law works.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duress_in_American_law#Require...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duress_in_American_law#Requirements)

~~~
Aeolun
If your life and wellbeing are dependent on your job, he might as well be
threatening them.

~~~
gameswithgo
the jobs ends if you can’t open. the job ends if you refuse to go to work too.
same result either way, which is why many of these businesses are not as awful
as they seem.

~~~
momokoko
Tesla is not going to have to permanently close that plant due to a few months
of shutdown. That is like saying if the Bay Area had another 1989 magnitude
earthquake, Tesla would go out of business.

Tesla is not even reasonably similar to many businesses that are truly at risk
of never opening again. And to make this comparison is insulting to the
hardworking business owners and employees that are in industries that will see
massive amounts of bankruptcies in the coming year.

------
aazaa
> The chief executive announced the plans on Twitter Monday: “I will be on the
> line with everyone else,” he wrote. “If anyone is arrested, I ask that it
> only be me.”

Translation: my employees now must weigh the consequences of losing their jobs
on the one hand vs. being arrested on the other.

What guarantees, if any, has Tesla has given its employees in the event of
prosecution and or other consequences of violating state law?

~~~
fnord77
and catching a potentially fatal illness on the third hand. Yeah the risk is
probably small now, but it is still a risk.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
Is it going to stop being a risk in a few weeks? I'm sure we can agree that a
ban on auto manufacturing is unsustainable.

~~~
ceejayoz
Why not?

A lot of people aren’t putting many miles on their vehicles while all this is
going on.

A lockdown that keeps Tesla closed is going to reduce demand for new cars for
related reasons.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
Driving is only down about a third from pre-pandemic levels.

But more broadly, we can't centrally plan which things people do or don't need
over the long term. It just isn't an effective economic strategy.

~~~
themacguffinman
But this isn't long term. A few months is a far cry for long term.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
It seems even more implausible that the risk will be less in a few months than
in a few weeks. What’s going to change?

~~~
jedberg
We’ll most likely have contact tracing and a good supply of tests in two
months. As well as lot more ppe.

So a lot will be different in two months.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
Alameda County already has contact tracing, a lot of tests, and sufficient PPE
for ongoing needs. (They admittedly don't meet the state standards that every
hospital should have a 30 day stockpile.)

------
dr_
Perhaps Tesla can reopen safely - if Amazon can run warehouses why shouldn’t
they be able to manufacture cars?

The issue I personally have is that his personal comments, from twitter and
from interview (Rogan) suggests that he is questioning how serious Covid is in
general and that people have the right to do live how they choose with little
regard for how that may affect those around them. He claims that patients with
covid like symptoms, but without an official diagnosis, are being counted as
covid patients, implying that they shouldn’t be (not true - most are
designated under investigation until results are available or, in the early
days, there simply weren’t enough tests available). Or that if one has covid,
but also has another medical condition that was the cause of death, it should
not be attributed to covid (again wrong, in many cases chronic conditions are
controlled, until the virus wrecks havoc on the body).

Why would he be doing this? Because by questioning the seriousness of it, a
push can be made to open the economy at large, which in many places and
environments is still not safe. After all, what is the point of manufacturing
Tesla’s if there aren’t enough people there to buy them?

~~~
MiroF
> Perhaps Tesla can reopen safely - if Amazon can run warehouses why shouldn’t
> they be able to manufacture cars?

I think it more has to do with the necessity of the service versus the risk
undertaken. I don't think anyone is suggesting that a grocery store worker is
at less risk than a Tesla factory worker - the suggestion is that perhaps
people need the grocery store more than they need a new Model 3.

~~~
insickness
There's construction going on next door to my apartment building in Brooklyn,
an area code where 50%+ are testing positive for covid antibodies. There's no
reason that would be safer than an auto plant, if anything it is less so.

~~~
otterley
Hence the "necessity" component that is weighed against it. Building
additional housing, especially in expensive cities such as NYC, is considered
extremely necessary by society.

~~~
neilmock
Some amazing question begging happening here. Value is subjective.

~~~
MiroF
Not what it means to beg the question.

~~~
tasty_freeze
Please explain your understanding.

My understanding is to assume the premise you are trying to prove in the act
of proving it.

The one being accused of begging the question said construction is a necessary
activity because society says it is necessary. But that doesn't mean it is
necessary, which is what the law would seem to require.

~~~
MiroF
The conclusion was that just because being a Tesla worker and being a
construction worker are roughly equally safe doesn't mean that both
automatically should re-open.

Construction being more valuable for society than a Model 3 was part of the
premise.

You took them to mean "Construction is more valuable for society ->
Construction is more valuable for society" but that was not the claim.

------
johnnyo
How should an employee react in this situation?

Your boss tells you to come to work, and the govt is saying your workplace
should be closed.

Can you fire someone for refusing to report when the county is supposed to be
closed?

What an awful spot to put your employees in. If you come in, you might get
arrested, if you don’t, you might get fired.

~~~
foob4r
Tesla has said that employees that feel uncomfortable can stay at home, but
that will be unpaid.

~~~
monadic2
That doesn’t sound like it would allow the employee to even apply for
unemployment.... dirty.

~~~
DenisM
Is it not exactly the same whether the factory is closed or not? If you are
listed as an employee you're not getting the unemployment.

~~~
kenhwang
Voluntary vs involuntary.

You get unemployment if you're involuntarily out of work (laid
off/furloughed/reduced hours). If you voluntarily chose not to work when
offered, or at fault for termination, you're typically disqualified from
unemployment.

~~~
procombo
"Typically" might be correct. Our nation's Covid-19 unemployment response is
not typical.

All of my employees have been given the option to work, or be furloughed.
Their decision. Two have chosen to stay home for their own personal reasons.
They are on state unemployement and also collecting that weekly check from the
fed. It's up to the fed when they stop doing that, but these people know we
will work with them if/when that goes away.

Don't give Elon the benefit of the doubt for most things, but I think he's
right on.

------
dang
The threads on this so far:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23145592](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23145592)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23130674](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23130674)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129942](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129942)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129216](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129216)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517)

~~~
balladeer
I often notice you listing other (dup?) threads on a broader topic. Is it just
an informative exercise as in - "people, check out these too", or more like
something frustrating - "why start so many threads!"?

~~~
dang
100% the former. And yet it often comes across as the latter. I'm still
looking for a brief way to express this that's clear. Sometimes I disambiguate
like this:
[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20%22for%20the%20curious%22&sort=byDate&type=comment).

I wonder if "from the archives" would be clearer?

~~~
609venezia
"See also" (from the legal blue book) seems like a natural indicator. As
applied here it could be as simple as:

<<

See also:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23145592](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23145592)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23130674](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23130674)

...

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517)

>>

The links already indicate that the pointers are to previous Hacker News
threads, so no need to specify that part. If you want to use you "from the
archives" language it could be something like "see also from the archives"

~~~
dang
"See also" is nice and short. I'll try that.

------
crazygringo
It's frustrating there are no real details on this. From one article:

> _Alameda County officials said they were "communicating directly and working
> closely with the Tesla team on the ground in Fremont" in a "collaborative,
> good faith effort to develop and implement a safety plan" to reopen while
> protecting workers' health. Meanwhile, Tesla sued the county, claiming it
> had no legal right to shut down the plant... Alameda County says it is
> expecting Tesla to submit its safety plan for approval, and that until that
> approval the company cannot resume normal production._ [1]

On the one hand, at face value (and based on his previous words/actions), it
appears like Elon's being uncooperative for the sake of it -- that he could
have reopened anyways if he'd just chosen to work together with the county,
instead of demanding his own way based on the principle of the thing. His
stubborness is just a terrible way to do business.

On the other hand, we also don't know if the county was demanding unreasonable
things, delaying re-opening as payback for Elon's previous tempertantrums (or
other reasons), or why it's not just "going along" with the more general
state-wide opening. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any reporting
whatsoever at that level of nuance.

[1] [https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-
updates/2020/0...](https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-
updates/2020/05/11/854217730/elon-musk-reopens-california-tesla-plant-defying-
local-health-officials-again)

------
xoxoy
The county just released some statement that basically sounded like they
wouldn’t take enforcement action
[https://twitter.com/acsosheriffs/status/1259974251286683648?...](https://twitter.com/acsosheriffs/status/1259974251286683648?s=21)

~~~
NoodleIncident
"we hope that Tesla will likewise comply without further enforcement actions"

To me, this suggests the opposite. They haven't enforced anything yet, but
they still might

~~~
adrianmonk
Yeah, to me that sounds like they are insinuating that consequences may happen
if their hope goes unfulfilled.

~~~
koheripbal
Their "phased approach" is a very long process that will likely extend into
the period whereby everything reopens.

It is essentially the same as doing nothing.

------
jcims
Just curious if there are folks in countries outside of the US or maybe even
little Internet backwaters within the US that observe a public discourse that
is even slightly more nuanced than the shrieking ideological standoff we seem
to have here in the states? For example, people publicly admitting that policy
makers have difficult decisions in front of them, that both the health impact
AND economic impact are crucial to consider, and maybe even collaborative, if
lay, efforts to create a framework for resuming normalcy?

~~~
mr_toad
As an outsider, the weirdest thing to me is that different counties can have
their own rules. That different states might have their own rules is
understandable, kind-of, but at the county level? It seems like a very
haphazard approach to an emergency.

~~~
umanwizard
Musk's legal argument is just that: that Alameda County has no authority to
override California state rules.

~~~
AlexandrB
Except it does, according to the governor of California.

> California Governor Gavin Newsom said Thursday that state-level guidance
> allowing manufacturing to resume some production didn’t supersede county-
> level restrictions. The company had unsucessfully tried to argue that
> Tesla’s production should be considered critical infrastructure.[1]

Musk is talking out his ass and undermining public safety. If this is also how
he approaches product design I don't think I ever want to get into a Tesla
again.

[1] [https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/9/21253127/elon-musk-
lawsuit...](https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/9/21253127/elon-musk-lawsuit-
alameda-coronavirus-tesla-fremont-lockdown)

~~~
s_y_n_t_a_x
I'd wait until the court decides to say who is talking out of whose ass, Gavin
Newsom is known for just that.

Gavin Newsom really is Gavin Belson...

------
camjohnson26
What is he gaining through acting like this? The county was on track to allow
them to reopen on May 18, is an extra week of production really so important?

~~~
lubujackson
It is worth noting he just had a baby a few days ago.

It may seem insane, but sudden parenthood can lead to weird behavior. All his
recent Twitter insanity began right around the birth.

~~~
yumraj
So he's just trying to get away from a newborn baby?

~~~
xeromal
Or lack of sleep, parental panic, etc

~~~
luckydata
it's his 6th kid. He should know how to deal with that by now.

~~~
AlexandrB
You think by the 6th one you'd figure out some names that don't make you look
like a jackass as a parent.

~~~
yumraj
Had to look up to see what you were talking about.

Just wow!!

I think he has become a victim of his own success. I just hope he is seeing a
good shrink.

------
allears
Courts generally don't take kindly to this sort of thing. And Tesla probably
needs a business license to operate. Musk expects Alameda County and the State
of CA to support his profits over common sense, caution, and the rule of law;
but Tesla isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to the size of the
California economy. He may be noisy, but he's not as important as he seems to
think.

~~~
subsubzero
Agreed. But a reminder that if tesla leaves it follows a long list of very
large companies that have left California in the past few years, Bechtel,
Toyota US, Chevron, Carls Jr, Jamba Juice, Numira Bio, Nestle US, Jacobs
Engineering etc..

~~~
crazygringo
That's no indictment of California, though.

As companies become larger and more profitable, as a general rule they move as
much of their workforce as possible to lower-wage locations, whether less
expensive states or less expensive countries.

Business in California is _booming_ , which is precisely what drives wages up.
Companies leaving allows other new vibrant businesses to hire the old workers.

The state isn't losing out at all. Compared with other countries, California
by itself would have the 5th highest GDP in the world. It's a roaring success.

~~~
refurb
That's an interesting take on things.

I would say that California has a strong economy _in spite_ of it's
government. Not because of it.

------
greendave
> "We are addressing this matter using the same phased approach we use for
> other businesses which have violated the order in the past, and we hope that
> Tesla will likewise comply without further enforcement measures."

Looks like yet again, Elon Musk will get special treatment. Small restaurants
in Sutter and Yuba county were threatened with revocation of their liquor
licenses for opening contrary to health regulations[1]. Yet Musk violates
those regulations and the local officials express 'hope' that he will follow
the rules?

Laws once again are for little people.

[1] [https://la.eater.com/2020/5/7/21250785/california-
restaurant...](https://la.eater.com/2020/5/7/21250785/california-restaurants-
alcohol-license-revoke-coronavirus-dining-room-closures)

------
HarryHirsch
Suppose there is an outbreak at the Tesla plant as there has been at that
Smithfield plant in Sioux Falls or the Tyson plant in Wilkesboro? What happens
next?

------
grecy
Elon's tweet[1]:

"Tesla is restarting production today against Alameda County rules. I will be
on the line with everyone else. If anyone is arrested, I ask that it only be
me."

[1]
[https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891)

------
rosywoozlechan
Good for him. Health officials always picking the course with the ultimate
amount of caution possible at any cost seems to be winning quite a bit and
it's nice to see some push back. When Governor Cuomo says you can't put a
price on a life he is 100% incorrect, that's not how the world works. The
economic cost of the shelter in place is expected to be worth it for about 12
weeks only according to NPR Marketplace and Bloomberg. Hopefully, it will soon
be time that we get back to work. At least those of us who want to, or even
better those of us who need to so we can feed our families.

~~~
bathtub365
Maybe Elon will feel the economic cost of endangering public health by being
fined.

~~~
rosywoozlechan
For doing what he's already doing in another California county?

~~~
bathtub365
Yes

------
badRNG
I don't think much is gained from chronicling every episode in the saga of
Musk's opposition to the quarantine. There always seem to be bitter flame wars
in the comments section, and I don't think there's anything "deeply
interesting" about Musk's week long rebellion.

~~~
xiphias2
What's interesting to me is the market reaction: TSLA is close to all time
highs. It seems to me like retail investors like the disobedience done by
Elon.

------
uHm3da
Given the Musk hate spiking up over how he seems to be going a bit off the
rails this is a pretty easy sell to get on the hate train for him doing this.

At the same time, I know people in California who are building up debt they'll
have to repay while not being allowed to work. That companies aren't paying
them and for various reasons unemployment aren't an option. It's not much
better in my state.

The biggest factor in if I would agree with Musk on this is if Tesla has been
singled out. I'm a bit out of the loop on my ability to cross reference things
here, but are there any other Automakers in Alameda county? Are they shut down
as well? If no to either of those then I can see why it does seem like
government overreach.

I say this as someone with preexisting conditions who is still working during
the outbreak and has been deemed essential by Local, State, and Federal. I
also say it as someone who works at a job site that had similar "Bring your
own PPE" rules, and only put them in place last week despite us working non
stop.

We've had around a dozen people in my office with scares who were tested,
nobody has come back positive yet, at least by what is claimed. From my
perspective, if that's true, it is possible to work safely. From reading other
comments on the plans Tesla has it sounds like Musk will do more than my work
about this...

------
coliveira
Tesla is putting their own employees in danger of being arrested. This is
completely immoral behavior.

~~~
sfj
A company doesn't have a moral responsibility for its employees. You either
work for crazy ass corp X or you don't. Morality is the government's job.

~~~
c0nducktr
> Morality is the government's job.

[https://i.imgur.com/ztaZbMZ.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ztaZbMZ.jpg)

^ That's where that line of thought leads.

~~~
sfj
It's certainly not the job of _corporations_ to save us, which is what I was
getting at. Corps were around when Hitler rose to power, too.

------
exabrial
As an advocate for science, I'm fine with this. They're going above and beyond
to protect workers vs Home Depot or other "necessary" businesses. There needs
to be scientific, evidenced-based approach, not some "Obey" approach

------
tusharpandey13
HN usually acts like an old, intellectual, know-it-all-seen-it-all programmer
grandpa that somehow knows all that the fields of computer science and
philosophy have to offer. But this thread show what it actually is. A
glorified reddit.

------
neuronexmachina
Would Tesla (or its insurers) be subject to civil liability if their employees
are injured/killed as a result of COVID-19 contracted due to the order
defiance?

------
ashtonkem
I would assume that this increases legal liability in a pretty severe way.
It’s still unclear what kind of liability employers might face if employees
get sick on the job, but surely opening open in direct defiance to a county
order makes the situation much, much worse.

------
seanonymous
This is a brilliant move on Musk's part to ingratiate himself with the Dodge
Ram crowd and sell more Cybertrucks in the red states. Well played, sir. Well
played.

~~~
typon
Pretty much the only reasonable explanation here. His twitter mentions are
full of conservative types showering praise at him. I think its brilliantly
cynical

~~~
DeonPenny
Hes a classical liberal not one of the SQJ liberal so he's saying things a Joe
Rogan or Jon Stewart would say. Both of which have be said to be conservative
but arent

------
quotemstr
Good. California's lockdown is indefensible in light of new antibody evidence
and ongoing economic carnage.

Prediction: nobody gets arrested and production continues. Continued panic
about the virus is driven largely by clickbait media and social media. These
forces seem terrifying due to their volume and ability to cancel random
individuals, but they wither in the fact of real threats to livelihoods.
Sometimes, all that's needed to defeat a bully is standing up to him and
saying "no".

If California arrests Musk, it'll be the starkest example yet of the state
punishing ambition and success while rewarding fear and mediocrity.

~~~
socalnate1
Or, you know. Breaking the law.

~~~
syshum
I wonder in what other contexts are you just a rules follower, and "law and
order type"

Do you believe the law is 100% correct and just all of the time, and that is
never proper to challenge said laws...

some times "breaking the law" is necessary for society to advance

------
vadym909
I would have no problem with Elon deciding to launch himself with a rocket,
but I'm worried about workers who don't have an option and are doing it
because they have to. The only thing I can think of to offset this risk is
that Elon commits to pay $1M or a lifelong salary to the dependents of any
worker that does catch the Covid-19 due to working during these times and dies
(or infects their at-home relative who die) and lifelong health insurance
should tey fall sick and be unable to work.

------
dangjc
Governor Newsom is in the process of lifting shelter in place. Manufacturing
is one thing that should be opening up.
[https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-05-04/californ...](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-05-04/california-
reopening-coronavirus-gavin-newsom-phases-begin-retail-pickup)

------
merpnderp
People seem to be ignoring that the forced shutdown was based on models that
have proven completely and utterly wrong. The actual data turned out to be
several times better than the best possible scenario of a Wuhan style
lockdown. Saying the shutdown worked is meaningless, because what are you even
comparing it to?

Musk is absolutely right that the models we shut down over were based on were
astrology.

------
kova12
we live in time when rational thinking has absolutely no weight in face of
emotional reaction. Businesses are not here to upheld rationality, but rather
to make money, and as such it's easier to adopt public idiocy than to fight
it. I am very glad that there is Musk out there, and as a token of
appreciation I will be considering to support him by buying Tesla.

------
sjg007
The only people getting rich here will be the lawyers...

~~~
arkitaip
Pretty sure Musk will make a billion or two too...

------
babesh
The Bay Area health officials have formed a cabal to move the entire region in
concert. This has first meant the joint statement extending the lockdown to
June 1st. My speculation is that this also means that the whole area moves at
the same rate as the slowest county.

One Alameda County supervisor implies that perhaps he could have gotten them
open by May 18th. I doubt that because the power to do so is not directly
invested in the board but rather the county health officer. The health officer
is acting in concert with the other counties health officers.

The leader of this group is the Santa Clara health officer, Sara Cody, who has
been credited with architecting the lockdown. The officer has been very vague
about opening the counties up to phase 2, saying that it will be frustratingly
slow (a).

The officer points to insufficient testing and insufficient numbers of workers
to contact trace (b). The officer said that they are weeks away from having
enough workers to contact trace and that tests are only 20-25% towards the
goal.

My issue with the tests are that they are voluntary. There is probably no way
to meet that goal unless you force people to test. You can tell by the number
of tests in each county. It isn't really going up very fast (c). At present
rate, you are talking about several months. The issue doesn't seem to be
insufficient tests. It seems to be mostly that people aren't going in to get
tested since the positivity rate is actually going down.

I also think that the health officers want to work in concert since one county
moving faster than the others will create pressure on the other counties to
move at that rate. There is already such pressure since the rest of the state
is already moving faster.

A good percentage of the Bay Area is insulated from the effects of the
lockdown since many can work from home. The big tech companies have been
relatively unaffected by covid-19. Government employees are still being paid.
However a good percentage are not insulated by the effects of the lockdown
(although it has partly opened up).

So based on the above, I expect the shit to hit the fan.

(a) [https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/Sara-
Cody-B...](https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/Sara-Cody-Bay-
Area-shelter-place-reopen-order-safe-15262194.php)

(b) [https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/Bay-Area-
re...](https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/Bay-Area-reopen-
shelter-place-why-COVID-19-SF-news-15254094.php)

(c)
[https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pages/dashboard.aspx#ca...](https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pages/dashboard.aspx#cases)

~~~
MiroF
> The issue doesn't seem to be insufficient tests. It seems to be mostly that
> people aren't going in to get tested since the positivity rate is actually
> going down.

I don't think this is true, at all. Would love to see a source that testing
right now is constrained by people unwilling to get tested and not by capacity
to test.

~~~
btilly
Here is an anecdote.

My ex works at an urgent care clinic where they literally put a big banner up
saying that they do COVID-19 tests.

They have not run out of tests.

This strongly suggests that in Orange County, CA, the bottleneck is not enough
people asking for tests.

~~~
pstuart
> the bottleneck is not enough people asking for tests

the bottleneck is not enough people with adequate health insurance asking for
tests

~~~
reaperducer
Pretty much every health insurance plan in the country covers COVID-19 tests
for free. Some states even require it.

~~~
pstuart
Millions of Americans do not have health insurance.

------
chx
Elon Musk has questioned the rule of law and he is getting away with it. USA,
2020: laws do not apply to rich white guys and do not protect poor blacks.

Not that this is anything new. Here's what Google says about the rule of law
for Americans and Canadians. I didn't even need to click the results, just
screenshot the result snippets.
[https://i.imgur.com/TO2XUco.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/TO2XUco.jpg) Somehow it
magically becomes not difficult to define the moment you cross the 49th
parallel.

------
slowrabbit
Don't arrest them, just fine them an obscene amount to make it unsustainable
for them to stay open with the extra added cost.

~~~
koheripbal
Do that, and they'll move the factory. Tesla already pay an obscene amount of
money in taxes. ...oh, and fines are tax deductible.

------
namesbc
Elon Musk is incredibly stupid, and for the good of Tesla the board should
kick him out.

Tesla and Alameda County agreed to a plan to re-open on May 18th.

Elon Musk should have stuck with that plan. Now he has increased the odds of
his employees catching a deadly virus, getting the factory shutdown for
longer, all while putting the company at increased legal risk.

~~~
krick
I don't think he is really _that_ stupid. I am balancing between two opinions
now:

\- He has gone really, actually crazy

\- He knows that Tesla is on the edge of bancruptcy and is intentionally
trying to get kicked out of Tesla before it happens, while keeping the image
of being a hero and avoiding the financial responsibility

I would be sure it is 2, except to a non-lawyer like me it seems he is doing
things that actually can put him in jail now. So I don't know.

~~~
luckydata
they do have SEVERE cash flow issues, but like pretty much everything Elon
does, it could have been handled better. Considering the days where Tesla was
small enough to be managed by an inexperienced CEO are way in the past, I
really wish Tesla got some more professional top management. They REALLY need
their own Satya Nadella to right that ship.

------
KKKKkkkk1
I like the measured and thoughtful response of the Alameda County Sheriff's
office. Letting the situation de-escalate instead of making it worse.
[https://twitter.com/ACSOSheriffs/status/1259974251286683648](https://twitter.com/ACSOSheriffs/status/1259974251286683648)

Makes you think how come such measured response is made to Elon flagrantly
breaking the law, but wasn't shown to Oscar Grant:

 _According to court testimony and video of the incident, [officer] Pirone
pulled Grant and his friends off the train so aggressively that other riders
loudly objected. Pirone got physical at least two more times with Grant,
kneeing him and pulling him violently to the concrete platform. At one point,
apparently angry at being called a profane name, Pirone leaned in close to
Grant and shouted back at him, “Bitch-ass n—, right? Bitch-ass n—, right?”_
[https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/10-years-
since-O...](https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/10-years-since-Oscar-
Grant-s-death-What-13489585.php)

------
londons_explore
Musk getting arrested would get him far more headlines than the few hours in
prison will cost him...

------
Ice_cream_suit
I had assumed that sufficient money and connections provide immunity from the
law only in facade democracies and banana republics.

It appears that that sufficient money and connections provide immunity from
the law in America too.

~~~
TomMarius
Sorry to break it to you, but USA is regarded as number one facade
democracy/banana republic around the world. Many people regarded it as such
before Trump, but it really exploded after he got in office.

------
panpanna
So, if people get infected and die... will that open Tesla to lawsuits?

~~~
dragonwriter
Violating a state or county public health order in California is itself a
misdemeanor punishable by jail, whether or not anyone gets infected or dies.

~~~
panpanna
Yeah, but ignoring all that... what do the big shareholders think of this?

------
beshrkayali
It's pretty much obvious now that the lock down that the world (except Sweden)
has been under is about 45 to 75 percent based on faulty predictions, fear,
and other types of BS.

The problem is that no one is willing to hear anything other than the
narrative they've been spooned up over the last couple of weeks, and any
attempt at resisting irrationality is met with hostility and accusations of
extreme-conspiratorial thinking.

Yes, it's stupid to keep the lock down. Yes, it's stupid to wear masks if
you're not feeling sick or you hang around people at risk. Yes, it's stupid to
stop people from taking a walk in the park or going to the beach, or even
having a party if that's what the heck they want to do.

------
kbos87
I guess my curiosity is why Elon Musk feels like he is entitled to defy the
law when any of the other businesses mentioned here wouldn’t dare. Jailtime
for him, or why should anyone obey?

------
Houshalter
The average age of death of coronavirus victims was about 10 months younger
than the average age of death of non-coronavirus victims. So if you die it
takes 1 year off your life expectancy. And maybe 1% of people will die that
are infected (and lets assume everyone will be infected.)

So coronavirus decreases your life expectancy by 3 and a half days. For
comparison, sitting in front of a TV for multiple hours a day (as many people
have been relegated to doing) decreases your life expectancy by 6 years.
Smoking is 8 years. Owning a car and driving it regularly is a few weeks IIRC.

~~~
sfj
The math doesn't work, because you are forgetting those that died already that
if they had lived, would have been a coronavirus victim. It's survivorship
bias.

For example, let's say the mean age was exactly 75 y.o., and that the
coronavirus killed 100% of people 75 y.o. or older and 0% less than 75. By
your logic, it would have no effect at all.

Another example, again with a 75 y.o. life expectancy, suppose it killed 100%
of people 80 y.o. or over and none under. By your logic, being infected by
coronavirus would _add_ 5 years to your life expectancy.

~~~
Houshalter
Even in your extreme example all of the deaths would have to be extremely old
people to work out like that. People that statistically have very very few
years left.

And for your extreme example to be true, it would have to be the case that the
disease doesn't discriminate healthy from weak. But still somehow only kills
old people. Because if the disease does discriminate healthy from weak, all of
the deaths would be those that would die soon anyway.

Then you must divide whatever estimate you get from that by one hundred.
Assuming the highest estimates that it kills around 1% of the victims, which I
think are bit high.

I don't see any possible way you could run the numbers and get more than 2
weeks lowered life expectancy. There just are so few young deaths, and the
total death rate is very low.

~~~
sfj
> Even in your extreme example all of the deaths would have to be extremely
> old people to work out like that. People that statistically have very very
> few years left.

> And for your extreme example to be true, it would have to be the case that
> the disease doesn't discriminate healthy from weak. But still somehow only
> kills old people. Because if the disease does discriminate healthy from
> weak, all of the deaths would be those that would die soon anyway.

You do realize these are contrived examples to show errors in your math? They
aren't suppositions about the actual true death rate of the coronavirus.

> Then you must divide whatever estimate you get from that by one hundred.
> Assuming the highest estimates that it kills around 1% of the victims, which
> I think are bit high.

> I don't see any possible way you could run the numbers and get more than 2
> weeks lowered life expectancy. There just are so few young deaths, and the
> total death rate is very low.

I don't think you can "run the numbers", because the data you're using isn't
enough to come to any conclusion. Unless you have data that breaks down deaths
by age group, and data that breaks down deaths by age normally, you can't
answer this question, as far as I know. If you think there is only 2 weeks
lowered life expectancy or less, you haven't shown that.

~~~
Houshalter
I fully admit that it is a back of a napkin estimate. I've yet to see a better
attempt at an estimation, or any attempt really. If you have a better way I'm
happy to hear it. I have a small dataset that breaks down COVID and nonCOVID
deaths for the same time period, and gives ages for each death.

------
mrfusion
Another angle to this too. Global warming is also a pressing problem. Every
day tesla is closed we’re not taking ICE vehicles off the road.

~~~
crispyporkbites
ICE manufacturers have roughly the same rules globally.

Every new car, tesla or otherwise is killing the environment. Some more than
others but the impact of creating new vehicles far exceeds that of alternative
forms of transport.

------
perseusprime11
Bookmark this comment. A week or two from now, we will hear covid+ cases at
this factory. This is not going to be a great decision.

------
hkai
That's what bravery looks like. Oh, and money.

------
slowrabbit
Don't arrest them, just fine them an obscene amount to make it unsustainable
for them to stay open with the extra cost.

------
clamprecht
[http://archive.is/kMhZy](http://archive.is/kMhZy)

------
MiroF
Don't arrest Elon, just fine Tesla until doing this is unsustainable.

~~~
johnnyo
Why not both?

~~~
holler
because I want to watch the Crew Dragon launch on May 27 still... CEO being in
jail might not be the best optics

~~~
krick
I wonder if SpaceX could realistically live with a new CEO. I believe Tesla is
doomed anyway, but SpaceX seems to actually have a future. What I cannot
understand, though, if it is succeeding because Musk is its CEO, or despite
Musk being its CEO...

------
Traster
I don't see why this would be a problem. Just arrest anyone you find violating
the orders. If I walked down to the local beach I would be arrested. I don't
see why you would treat luxury goods retailers differently.

~~~
colechristensen
This is the problem, the orders likely are in large parts unenforceable and in
violation of state and federal laws and constitutions.

I don't want to live in a police state where local authorities can arbitrarily
wield such broad powers.

People cheer for fascism when it aligns with their own ideas.

You can think that shutting most things down is a good idea and that it's a
good idea for your government not to have that power at the same time. Not too
many people do though.

~~~
kdtsh
> People cheer for fascism when it aligns with their own ideas.

I truly resent being told I’m cheering for fascism because I don’t want my
friends or family, or myself, to die from a highly contagious disease. I can
only imagine that the same people calling this collective effort against
community transmission of this virus fascism would have also called the
orientation of all industries to the war effort during WWII fascism.

Fascism to me is sending people to work during a pandemic because the bottom
line is being affected. “We’re all in this together,” and the workers aren’t
pulling their weight.

~~~
Gwypaas
The "put the genie back in the bottle" train left the station in
February/March. Now this is just outrage at the sake of outrage, starting to
feel almost like a religion.

~~~
kdtsh
What do you mean?

------
salimmadjd
I have to side with Musk here.

I want to see what everything Tesla is doing to protect their employees and if
they are following a subset of the below guidelines that I've listed.
Temperature check at entrance, mask requirement, strict hand sanitization,
etc. Then let Musk commercialize the process of opening up businesses.

Some background:

I followed Corona (COVID19 now) from late January very closely and read most
published papers. I strongly supported the "flattening of the curve" and
encouraged the lockdown and we practiced/and practice strict social
distancing. That being said, hearing countering arguments from various
scientist (2013 Noble prize winner [0]). The Swedish epidemiologist [1]. That
the lockdown makes no sense unless we are going to have a vaccine when we come
out of the lockdown.

Remember, the initial lockdown was mostly argued for flattening the curve (in
addition to maybe it worked in China lets follow them). If you look at the
curves (flattened vs. spiked) they have near the same areas, meaning those
original scientist who argued for it, never argued the lockdown was going to
reduce the net infection by COVID but to slow it down to help the health care
system gear up and also not get overwhelmed (lack of rooms, ventilators, etc.)

That being said, we can copy some smart and common sense stuff from places
like Taiwan (I've spoken to people who live in Taiwan and life is almost back
to normal but they just wear masks in public) that has allowed them open up
and I'm hoping Tesla is learning from these practices.

What we have not heard from our governor (feels like many of his stuff is
partially motivated by planning for a 2024 presidential run) or county
officials a clear pathway to opening up.

Here's what I want to hear from them:

1 - we are distributing masks to every house. 2 - we are requiring mask in all
public places or when you're passing by anyone within 1 car length (6 feet is
hard to visualize) 3 - we are distributing hand sanitizers to every public
facing business. 4 - we are requiring all credit card terminals to be touch-
less or any customer using it, must apply hand sanitizer before and after
using it. 5 - we'll start deploying IR thermometers to malls and large public
facing businesses (Costco, Safeway ) and will test for temperature. 6 - Take
extra measures to protect the seniors and elderly. Continue to have senior-
only operation hours (at Costco, etc.) everyone working in adult care facility
needs to be tested and monitored. 7- Daily PSA by local TV/radio in English,
Spanish, Chinese...how to best sanitize your hands, how to best use mask and
how to effectively maintaining social distancing even with mask. 8 -
Ticket/fine those who are not wearing mask. Maybe the first offense is a
warning if they don't have a mask and the police office will hand them a mask.

I've seen some of these, but not a in concrete single articulated plan of
execution with timeline. Right now most policies are made with bad data. Not
statical sampling of confirmed COVID (though it's changing [2]) but rather raw
numbers. It's obvious the more you test the more confirmed cases you'll get.
Everyday, you hear about how numbers are increasing (that might be true, but
it's not really scientific) Where as statistical sampling would tell us what
percentage of the population is infected and if the infection spreading or
staying flat.

[0] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl-
sZdfLcEk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl-sZdfLcEk) [1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfN2JWifLCY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfN2JWifLCY)
[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTXgbN6uB1I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTXgbN6uB1I)

------
54351623
If I was a Tesla employee I'd strike for quadruple pay and benefits. If Musk
is willing to go to prison to get his factory up and running surly he'd be
willing to give his employees pretty hefty raises.

~~~
kthxbye123
He's actually not willing to go to prison - he has infinite money and lawyers,
he'd never do a day. What he _is_ willing to do is sacrifice the health and
safety of his workers for a little more money. If he could get away with
hiring Pinkertons to break the knees of striking workers he absolutely would.

~~~
54351623
That's a good point I guess he'd just be stuck with firing them and moving the
factory, oh wait... Or maybe he'll just pick up some cheap foreign labor, oh
wait..... Maybe just replace them with automation, oh wait ..............

------
kome
rubber barons doing what they want despite and against the law... USA is
acting like a failed state, or a banana republic.

------
MarkMc
The comparisons with Rosa Parks are a bit rich. By refusing to stand on the
bus, Parks did not make millions of dollars or put other people's lives at
risk.

------
nutjob2
I wonder what his story will be when families sue the company after employees
die of the virus. I guess it will be "they didn't catch it here."

~~~
dannyw
Likely no one will die, given:

* the mandated, Tesla-supplied masks and face shields;

* the 6 ft of social distance mandated across the entire process;

* the fact that it is opening at 30-40% capacity;

* the age of the factory workers, and the flu-like levels of CFR for young to medium aged workers

The virus is going to be here with us for a long time. A vaccine isn't
happening this year barring a divine-like miracle; it may not even happen next
year or even ever. Coronavirus vaccines are very new for us.

We cannot put the whole society, and the whole economy, on lockdown for 3
years. We need to reopen following all the safety protocols, but we need to
reopen.

If someone dies despite all the safety protocols taking place, then, well, it
sucks. But the virus is here already.

~~~
FireBeyond
> * the mandated, Tesla-supplied masks and face shields

Nope. "You are welcome to bring your own PPE. If Tesla has supplied you with
some, you are required to wear it".

is quite different from "Tesla has supplied and required employees to wear
PPE".

~~~
dannyw
[https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/19/tesla-factory-employees-
will...](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/19/tesla-factory-employees-will-have-
temperatures-taken-and-get-masks.html)

~~~
prostanac
Your article is from march. [0] is the source for this quote, from page 7.

[0]
[https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/T...](https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/Tesla-
Return-to-Work-Playbook.pdf)

------
alephnan
Has anyone considered Elon Musk plans to run for president in the future and
this is one way to challenge the establishment?

~~~
DuskStar
Pretty sure he can't run for president for the same reason that Schwarzenegger
couldn't - he isn't a natural-born US citizen.

------
tonetheman
What a fucking joke. Must get back to work to make our quarter for the share
holders. Elon Musk is a horrible human.

------
gulli1010
do the employees get a choice if they dont feel safe working in the
environment?

------
wnevets
Just a reminder Musk said this virus was no worse than the common cold. Musk
also said the new cases would drop to 0 in April.

How many times does someone have to be wrong before we can stop accepting
their input on a subject?

~~~
corebit
So did Vox, Washington Post, New York Times, and CNN. Nobody knew much in the
beginning and that's completely fine and not a hit on anyone's credibility.

~~~
setpatchaddress
No. Musk was saying this on March 16th:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/China_Flu/comments/fkbw1c/elon_musk...](https://www.reddit.com/r/China_Flu/comments/fkbw1c/elon_musk_called_the_coronavirus_a_specific_form/)

At that time, here's CNN: [https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/16/app-news-
section/quickly-catc...](https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/16/app-news-
section/quickly-catch-up-march-16/index.html)

Vox:

[https://www.vox.com/policy-and-
politics/2020/3/16/21182247/t...](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-
politics/2020/3/16/21182247/trump-coronavirus-covid-19-press-conference)

------
ProAm
I thought he was moving?

------
obelos
We don’t have a public health crisis. We have a billionaire crisis.

~~~
koheripbal
Keep printing tons of money and soon we'll have millions of them.

------
OrgNet
put him in jail and forget about it?

------
DoofusOfDeath
If Musk is actually on the wrong side of the law, I'd love to see him spend
time in jail for this move.

~~~
gentleman11
What happens to workers who are not comfortable with this? Do they get fired
and cut off from social assistance if they don’t show up?

~~~
londons_explore
Presumably workers have already been notified of this and sent their shifts
with a stern "if you're a no-show for your shift, this is your punishment".

I expect we'll see it soon, considering how many thousands of workers there
are.

------
fellowniusmonk
Ok. Can I get someone to look over this research?

It looks like Tesla is actually complying with the law and the _County_ public
health org is contradicting a strategic federal & state order. Specifically
they are contradicting the Executive Order Gavin Newsom made which is what
empowers and dictates which industries should close and which are
strategically required to remain open.

If you look at this executive order which is both empowering the CA shutdown
and dictates which industries are required infrastructure and MUST stay open,
the rules and regulations to be followed are at the State level, and no
additional empowerment to create superseding rules at the city or county level
were created: [https://covid19.ca.gov/img/Executive-
Order-N-33-20.pdf](https://covid19.ca.gov/img/Executive-Order-N-33-20.pdf)

Relevant part of Executive Order (Bold): "On March 19, 2020, Governor Newsom
issued Executive Order N-33-20 directing all residents immediately to heed
current _State_ public health directives to stay home, except as needed to
maintain continuity of operations of essential critical infrastructure sectors
and additional sectors as the _State_ Public Health Officer may designate as
critical to protect health and well-being of all Californians."

Furthermore, the State requirements for critical infrastructure that must
remain open included "Workers at transportation manufacturing facilities":
[https://covid19.ca.gov/img/EssentialCriticalInfrastructureWo...](https://covid19.ca.gov/img/EssentialCriticalInfrastructureWorkers.pdf)

I don't see how Elon Musk is breaking the Executive Order, in fact based on
these documents it looks like county officials are overstepping and illegally
shutting down something that has been explicitly earmarked as strategically
protected, can someone provide additional links or order I may not have been
able to find?

------
fasteddie31003
This man is a genius. Businesses put food in my stomach not government. Thank
god.

------
bubmiw
2 new cults have formed, covid doomers and the covid hoaxers . Very strange
how same hyper partisan tendencies of far right and left are present in this
new cult dynamic .

~~~
fatbird
Did you really just "both sides" a global pandemic?

~~~
x3n0ph3n3
There are absolutely extreme, polar responses, reactions, and beliefs about
COVID. The truth is somewhere in between.

------
rogerkirkness
I have been gritting my teeth through another reading of Atlas Shrugged, but
this tweet is like a case study.

Prediction: Elon gets arrested, Tesla keeps producing, Tesla comes out of this
stronger than other automakers, mid-term move to Nevada or Texas,
congressperson retires with pension.

------
throwaway122378
Good for him. We should be allowed to reopen as easily as we were forced into
our homes for 3 months.

------
tanilama
I am generally in approval of CA government's handling in this pandemic,
however, I don't think there is value in waiting any longer for reopening to
start.

Why? To me it is obvious that the pandemic won't stopping from spreading at
the end of May. And the nation level self-quarantine/shelter-in-place order
now, is now failed and discarded by the many state government and federal
government alike.

Keep closing at this point feels pointless and endless, and it won't resolve
the situation at all.

------
londons_explore
I wonder what the workers will be doing...

Will they be making cars, or will they be unbolting everything that moves and
putting it on a truck so they can start making cars in a tent in another
county?

------
maerF0x0
IMO the burden of proof should lie on the health officials to demonstrate
TSLA's precautions and measures are insufficient. Then fine them if true.

This order is like saying anyone who is drives (at any speed) is automatically
exceeding the speed limit. In our laws we have an officer make an observance
and provide some data to back it up (radar reading). TSLA should have the
right to operate in a safe manner. There's nothing special about walking
outside or getting groceries that make's it more/less safe than building a
car, when sufficient protections are in place.

Why should one group receive the right to continue operations while the other
does not?

~~~
ProAm
> IMO the burden of proof should lie on the health officials to demonstrate
> TSLA's precautions and measures are insufficient. Then fine them if true.

They would have to do that for every business in CA (or the county), and are
clearly not staffed or prepared for that yet.

~~~
maerF0x0
I understand the immediate pragmatism, but if a gov't wants to make laws /
rules it's on them to staff it functionally. We dont tell a restaurant they
have to close because there are no health inspectors available. (I am assuming
here, correct me if that's wrong)

~~~
geofft
A better example would be if the government hired health inspectors who say "I
saw a rat, you need to shut down" without also saying "Here is my peer-
reviewed article about why rats are bad" \- which they absolutely do.

~~~
maerF0x0
But within your own example you're missing the point that there is no one
going to TSLA (afaik) to inspect the property to say "The way you're operating
is insufficient" Instead they're deeming all possible operations as
automatically insufficient.

For example lets say, just for argument's sake, that every worker had some
kind of full body hazmat suit and filtered positive pressured air supply.
Would it still be not ok to build a car in such a condition? What makes it ok
to operate a checkout stand (groceries) in not even close to such protections?

The problem is the assumption of guilt w/o any means to continue operations--a
perfectly legal thing otherwise-- even with appropriate measures in place.

------
natch
I wonder how many people freaking out about Elon’s actions and still driving
ICE cars don’t ponder that this whole pandemic episode, even if it goes on for
years and kills millions of people, is just a tiny blip compared to what’s
coming from global climate change. I mean further pandemics are just one of
the problems climate change is going to bring. This is just a teaser.

Keeping this in mind helps set a perspective for why he sees this as a
mission. If you still think he is being irresponsible, consider the data he
shared, and the larger picture. Maybe... just maybe... he has more information
than you do.

~~~
chillwaves
The information he has offered (it is no worse than the flu, the the number of
cases will drop to 0 by end of April) have been so egregiously wrong, it is
only reasonable to question the rest of his judgment.

~~~
natch
I was more talking about the hard data, like the number of COVID deaths of
Tesla employees in China (zero) and the wide delta between the projected
flattened curve here and the actual flattened curve.

Also, misquoting is a thing. I don’t think you can find the original source of
your quote. He did say something similar prefaced with “my best guess.” When I
used the word “data” I did mean data, not misquoted guesses from months ago.

