
Things I wish someone had told me about life after college - kine
http://zackshapiro.com/post/22010015010/9-things-i-wish-someone-had-told-me-about-life-after
======
prophetjohn
I just graduated last night, but this doesn't feel terribly enlightening to
me. I don't know if I didn't have the typical college experience or if people
like the author just tend to be more vocal about their experience because
those in my position had a less rosy view of the whole thing. But it's obvious
that I'm in a different group when I read stuff like

> _There’s no more Spring break or three months off for summer._

When I was in college (feels weird to say it in the past tense), summer wasn't
3 months off. If I wasn't taking any classes, I was working full-time so that
during the long semesters, I could work only part-time and still be able to
pay rent. Spring break meant I could get a little boost to get me through
until summer.

I just finished yesterday and I'm intensely relieved. I will have so much more
free time than I've had the last several years. Maybe I can start a side
project or contribute to open source. I'm playing a video game right now. A
month ago I would've felt guilty because weekends were the only time I could
catch up on homework.

My post-graduation plans? Seize all that extra free time! Start working out
more. Go to that weekly Reddit poker night. Go to more concerts. Go to
programmer meetups.

~~~
ry0ohki
Oddly, I felt like I had much more free time after college. When work ended at
5pm, I suddenly had this huge 7 hour window of time where I had no homework to
work on, no projects etc... I started reading for fun, working out, doing side
projects, and I still had time!

~~~
nostrademons
I felt the same, until I started seeing my job as not "Do what my boss tells
me to" but as "Contribute something awesome to the world." _That_ job is never
done - there's always some other project you could be working on, some way you
can make your product better, someone else you can help out.

On the plus side, it's a lot more fulfilling than feeling like you put in 8
hours for a boss so you can have 7 hours to yourself. It's like the
distinction between work and play melts away and it's all play.

~~~
bicx
I'm in the same boat here. I worked for a Fortune 500 corporation for the
first 3.5 years after college, and for the most part I was just putting in my
8 hours. I enjoy software development, but the atmosphere and mentality at
this business didn't encourage you to go the extra mile. If you said, "Man, I
love this company," people would give you strange looks, probably suspecting
you of being a suck-up. There was a lot of "us-vs-them" mentality with regards
to the regular employees and managers. On top of all that, the systems and
teams were so huge that you could only get so far ahead with your work before
you had to stop and wait for the "marathon, not a sprint" types to catch up.
All in all, it was discouraging, and it started to kill my passion for
developing great software.

Earlier this summer, I quit that corporate job and joined a 10-person tech
start-up with highly-motivated, smart, and optimistic employees. Everyone
believes in the business's potential, and we all strive to make our work
better and better. There are no set hours (whatever is most efficient for your
lifestyle), and vacation is unlimited. Combined with a small, motivated
workforce, these policies result in an environment where developers no longer
feel like children doing chores but trusted professionals who can handle their
own responsibilities and work/life balance.

All that to say: Life after college can vary greatly depending on how you make
your career choice. You can take the corporate job if you like, but I love
working for a smaller business with flexible policies and motivated co-workers
working hard to change the future.

~~~
eru
> [...] and vacation is unlimited.

I think there's a case to be made for mandatory vacation. Just make people
take off at least two weeks every year.

~~~
bicx
I think as a general rule, I do agree with this. When you don't have mandatory
vacation, you start asking yourself the question, "Should I really time off
work?" Motivated, hard-working people have a hard time saying "yes" to that
question. So far, we've all taken time off for vacation this past summer, and
we're getting a couple weeks for Christmas, but I can see how such a system
could have negative impacts.

~~~
eru
That's good to hear.

------
Shenglong
_Keep those hobbies going. Keep playing soccer, or pool, or surfing. Keep
doing yoga. Keep reading. Keep doing you. You’ll develop some great friends
around those interests._

One of my most resounding fears is meeting people in different fields. In
school, it's easy. I can go to a party, go out to a club with friends, or just
sit down at a library table with a stranger and meet someone new.

Out of school, it seems those opportunities erode... and the majority of
friends are either coworkers or friends from the past :(

For those of you who have graduated recently, how have you dealt with this?
Not that tech friends aren't great - but diversity is wonderful.

~~~
pavel_lishin
I haven't graduated recently, but I moved from Texas to New York City three
years ago, and I've met most of my current friends through Reddit meetups and
IRC channel.

There are general weekly meetups in a bar, and other meetups catering to more
specific interests - rock climbing, board games, programming, etc.

Reddit itself may get some (well deserved) flack on HN, but it's just a
community made up of people, and you can't forget the inverse of Sturgeon's
law.

~~~
stretchwithme
Meetups are a great way to meet people.

And if you can't find one that interests you, start one yourself. You have to
pay but you get to pick the location, making it most convenient for you. You
actually come out ahead. And most people really appreciate that you made the
effort.

------
the_cat_kittles
Some positives I didn't realize about life after college:

\- You have complete control over you choices. You did in college, but by
choosing to go, you are forfeiting some of that I think, at least
psychologically.

\- There may be things about school in general that you hated, or thought were
stupid, but never realized until you got some distance from them. I had this
experience, I was filled with a warm glow for about a year when I realized
this!

\- You are in the "real" world. I hate this distinction, because it is not
true, but it is still nice to know that the hopefully small part of your mind
that subscribes to that distinction can now forget about it.

\- You can use all your strengths to do what you want. Instead of trying to
play the academic game, which limits the degree to which you can be
resourceful, now you can use anything and everything to make things happen.

\- You will learn a lot more about who you are, and your natural tendencies,
since you have so much more freedom.

\- I was, and still am surprised at how incredibly incomprehensibly vast and
mysterious the world is. This was much more hidden to me in school.

This may not be true for everyone, or even for most, but I'm sure there are
lots of people on HN who felt these things. To those of you on your way to
graduation, I hope you aren't fearful. For me, it was probably the happiest
transition of my life. That's not to say there weren't some of the most
extreme difficulties, but overall, its been wonderful.

~~~
Goladus
When people say academia is not the real world they generally mean a few
things. "Real world" might not be dictionary-correct but this is what is
meant:

1\. Many of the problems you're forced to solve are contrived. They're
practice problems and often the knowledge required to implement the solution
has been provided to you already in classroom or textbooks.

2\. You are evaluated on the academic quality of your work. In the "real
world" you're evaluated on whether your work meets the needs of the customer
and how well you present yourself.

3\. In college you are rewarded based on how you are evaluated. In the real
world you are not paid based on how well you are evaluated you are paid what
you're able to sell or negotiate which is dependent on what your skills are
worth (not just how well you perform them).

4\. Basic needs (food/shelter) are paid for by someone else or on credit. This
is not always true but often is. In the real world there is pressure to
provide for oneself.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
I agree on the first three points. I disagree on the fourth.

The fourth point is, ironically, most true for those who manage to become
highly sought-after professionals. You _have_ to be very well-paid and sought-
after these days to achieve financial independence from any _one_ employer,
allowing you to take full responsibility for yourself. At the other end, you
either get basic needs supplied via the wage paid by your employer, who is on
some level _morally_ responsible because they basically _own_ you, or your
employer _fails_ to provide for you and you become dependent on family or the
state.

The broad swathe of people who will forever remain proletarians, poor _or_
well-off, rely on someone else to supply them/us the means to their/our basic
needs.

And, in fact, the financially independent (including the rich) aren't really
any better. They depend on the entire market economy that has evolved to
enable them to trade one highly specialized form of labor or property for
otherwise-valueless tokens which they can then trade for all their basic needs
and more.

Real material independence from other people - for an individual, family,
village, or nation - _is_ possible, but its desirability is _very_
questionable. A tiny homestead, a small farming village, or a large nation-
state like America or China can afford to say, "We want to achieve complete
economic self-sufficiency without depending on trade with the outside world."
Most units of existence in between those will start having to make trade-offs
in the standard of living and level of technological sophistication they can
afford if they don't admit they need the help of others to live well.

~~~
Goladus
I see what you're saying and have various opinions on this topic in general
(in some cases I disagree strongly), but the point still remains that college,
especially the undergraduate level, still tends to be yet one or two layers
more insulated than what you describe. That's really all I was saying.

Technically speaking there is nothing that is not the real world and I think
that's what cat_kittles was getting at. There's always a mix of personal
responsibility and dependence on others and society. My point was specifically
about the relationship between college students and everyone else.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
And for those like me, who were well-off and went to college on our parents'
dime, fair enough. For those literally betting their future on their education
in a financial transaction for which they take personal responsibility... not
so much.

Which still doesn't quite hit the note I really wanted to hit. The apparent
"trade-off" between personal responsibility and dependence on others doesn't
exist. The real trade-off, in my opinion, is between independence and
interdependence. You can live in an ultra-interdependent social-democratic
economy where you depend on others both to operate both private businesses
_and_ public services that supply your need, _but you still have personal
responsibility_. What interdependence lets us do, as any Econ 101 class
explains, is specialize ourselves into our preferred niches rather than having
to waste half our time farming when we really want to be computer programming.

But, in my opinion, it's downright _arrogant_ to simply forget the
interdependence. We might depend only on other people's self-interest, but
that's still interdependence, and our lives would be much worse without it.

~~~
Goladus
_For those literally betting their future on their education in a financial
transaction for which they take personal responsibility... not so much._

Most students have no way to reasonably measure the risk they are taking or or
commitment they are being asked to make. A college student funding food and
shelter from a financial aid package is not yet truly assuming personal
responsibility for those things. Not in the way most adults do. That's the
distinction I'm making. That's what people are saying when they say that
college is not the real world.

For students who really do make the investment with awareness and appreciation
of the risks and financial commitments involved, my statement obviously does
not apply. That's a fairly small minority of students, though.

------
JagMicker
Here are some things I wish someone would've shared with me...

\- If you want to thrive in the professional world, get a fucking haircut and
at least look the part.

\- If you think that you can send out a bunch of resumes and be flooded with
calls about job offers, you are wrong.

\- Most of the phrases you've heard in your youth are true. Ex. "The squeaky
wheel gets the grease". See the above point. If you get a job (or a check)
just by sending a resume (or invoice), consider it an anomaly, and yourself
lucky.

\- In life, everyone is only concerned about their own well-being. You've got
to learn to highlight 'what's in it for them'. See the above point.

\- You're on your own, so make your time and actions count!

~~~
csmajor1234
I disagree about your second point. I'm a CS Major at a top 10 program, with a
pretty good GPA (~3.7). This is a throwaway account btw.

During this fall recruiting season, I sent out my resumes to all the top
companies, and was offered interviews at every single one. With the exception
of two companies, I received offers from everywhere I interviewed, including
Amazon, Google, Facebook and Microsoft. I think the market is so hot right now
that you CAN get showered with job offers just by sending out a lot of
resumes.

~~~
JagMicker
I suppose that's sometimes true. However, some people in certain situations
might receive unsolicited job offers, without ever even creating a resume or
submitting an application, right?

The point I was trying to make is that, I'd encourage young people to _follow-
up_ after sending out a resume. It will help you gain 'chops' for future
calling/prospecting that may be required. Also, it's professional to follow-up
with a phone call after sending an email to someone you've never met or spoken
to before.

I get a lot of unsolicited resumes sent my way. Hardly anyone ever calls to
follow-up. My thought is, I'm a busy person, and if the person really truly
wants to work with me, they won't give up. I want to see persistence.

I bet that Amazon, Google, Facebook and Microsoft all have very well-thought-
out recruiting programs. I'd imagine that young college grad's could be hired
for a lower salary than older, more seasoned software engineers. Those large
companies are probably more flexible with young recruits. Everything in life
is a trade-off. Why would those companies "shower" kids fresh out of college
with job offers? I'd venture to guess that they are interested in hiring them
because it's cheaper than hiring someone else with more experience. Or maybe
that's how it is in the software job market. But as I see so many Americans
out of work, expecting someone to 'create jobs' for them, I think it's
important to highlight what it takes to get a job that you want. I'd consider
your example of software engineers being "showered with job offers" as an
exception to the rule. Most people have to actively pursue what they want in
life. Plus, in 25 years you don't want to be one of those people on TV begging
the government to 'create jobs' for you! So my advice is to learn how to get
what you want by asking.

~~~
gregpilling
It is a common practice to hire anyone promising and see how it works out. It
is a fools errand to think that you understand what a person will deliver from
a job interview process. I recently put an ad on craigslist for a personal
assistant for me. I was looking for a college student, times were flexible,
and my office is within one mile of University of Arizona and Pima College -
60,000 students.

The ad asked for a cover letter, resume, and to come in person to the office
for a typing test. I have a chronic condition that prevents me from typing
much more than an hour a day. Simple, right? I received over a hundred
responses of mostly low quality, people blindly firing in poorly written
resumes or worse (one simply stated "I need a job and will work for money")
and 5 people that actually followed instructions. I hired all five of them.
One didn't like the job and left on good terms, another was great but ended up
needing to work on school more, two were fired for being incompetent and the
remainder is left but I promoted her and made her full time.

I know that this is not a typical hacker job, merely a personal assistant job.
The point is that even in a small 10 person non-tech company like mine you can
take a risk of over-hiring to try and find the good ones, the people that fit
and like your business culture. Microsoft, Google, Apple et al can certainly
afford to hire every reasonably competent programmer they can find that seems
to fit their hiring profile. Time will tell if their potential gets realized
at BigCorp. Just remember that this is a learning experience for both sides of
the table.

------
larsberg
> Your first job out of college won’t make you or break you

I disagree with this statement. Certainly, if you go to
Google/Facebook/Microsoft/Apple, the choice doesn't matter and you can do
whatever after you've learned how to work on real software.

But getting into games and many other fields can be astoundingly difficult
even two years out of college, as it's difficult to overcome the "finance,"
"healthcare," or "consulting" tags once they're on your resume. For better or
worse, employers usually only see new college grads as full of potential to do
anything; after even a single stint at X, you're branded an X-person.

~~~
andreipop
I'd love to have more employers pipe up and comment here.

I'm guessing that, although more challenging, changing gears is not altogether
impossible (or even very difficult).

Certainly one should develop skills in an area that one is interested in
impacting, but this kind of mentality breeds fear and risk aversion because
new grads begin to see pursuing interesting opportunities as career risks
versus character/skill building.

~~~
JagMicker
I think most recent college graduates have bigger issues than worrying about
their 'self-branding'. It takes time, and, usually some experience, to build
an identity. Sometimes you just have to 'wing-it' and see where that takes
you. I'd bet that most employers wouldn't expect a kid fresh out of college to
know his/her 'true calling'.

------
JDSD
The vast majority of kids who enter college do so right after high school.
They are used to summers off, parents sending tuition checks and allowances
for rent/living. There is a misunderstanding in todays youth that college is a
social club with the side effect of gaining an education. Few kids choose
their school on quality of education, but rather how big the parties are/what
the scene is like.

To me this entire subject reeks of #firstworldproblems, and the fact I don't
have much respect for the beaten path or the zombies they churn out(referring
to a BA). Life after college isn't hard at all. This generation is simply not
used to feeling ANY discomfort or pain in their sheltered little lives.

Not going to college and excelling to the point of someone with a degree is
not that difficult, though it's more difficult than going to a structured
setting to be hand-fed information. (most of college could be condensed into
one year study, one year practical)

Working in an electronic graveyard in Ghana at age 13 with no parents seems
difficult. It seems in places like this, limits of the human experience are
tested everyday in terms of what people can and cannot withstand. Spend some
time learning how other people live purely for our convenience, and repeat
"Graduating college is a difficult transition from one easy thing to the next
easy thing." You'll sound ridiculous.

~~~
peter_l_downs

        There is a misunderstanding in todays youth that college is a
        social club with the side effect of gaining an education. Few
        kids choose their school on quality of education, but rather
        how big the parties are/what the scene is like.
    

Source? This seems extremely anecdotal.

    
    
        Life after college isn't hard at all. This generation is simply
        not used to feeling ANY discomfort or pain in their sheltered
        little lives.
    

This is hyperbole and personal opinion presented as fact. HN is not the place
for this kind of writing.

~~~
jarek
> Source? This seems extremely anecdotal.

Source is the darn kids on his lawn.

------
radarsat1
I am currently dealing with this. I'm not sure about his specific tips, but
the general feeling that this transition is not easy is something I don't feel
I was adequately prepared for. I just finished my PhD and started working at a
company, and I thought I would really enjoy the job since it's in a fun and
exciting field, but honestly the experience has been pretty jarring. I've
spent the last 7 years basically in charge of my own research projects, and
all of a sudden being tasked to fix someone else's software that I'd never
seen before and that was already at quite an advanced stage was just a bit
difficult and a shock to my system. Not that I couldn't handle the work
_technically_ (I managed to commit a few pretty important bug fixes in my
first week), but socially and mentally it was very difficult for me; suddenly
not being around any of the people I have become good friends with, and being
tied down to such a strict work schedule. 9-to-5 instead of waking up when I
feel like it and taking a long coffee break with my friends in the afternoon.
I am sort of starting to get used to it, but it sure hasn't been easy.

~~~
jtheory
I remember this as well -- there's a particular feeling in my gut that I
recall, sitting down in front of the computer at 9am, feeling sick and drained
already, to work on a task that would be both tedious and difficult and didn't
interest me in the slightest.... I could force myself to go ahead and get
something done, but it would feel like I was somehow doing permanent damage to
my psyche.

You have to look for the opportunities (and sometimes make them, once you have
the clout to do it), but it's quite possible to get back to the kind of
schedule (and better focused/motivated work & life) that you mentioned. In the
meantime, get talking with the people around you -- some of them can become
friends, and they have some say in what you work on -- while _someone_
probably needs to get this software fixed now, your next task may well be
still undecided. If you seem happy with this kind of assignment (and do it
well), you're probably going to get more like it.

~~~
radarsat1
Thanks for the support. Yeah, I'm already seriously evaluating my options. I
have realized that it's okay if the first job I get may not end up being what
I'm looking for.

------
kleinsch
100% agree about keeping hobbies going (or developing new ones). If your whole
life is going to work and hanging out with the friends you made in
college/high school, you're not going to make a lot of new friends.

I joined a triathlon team five years after college and have had an amazing
time. I'm not an athlete at all, but nobody cares - half the team is just
there to meet people and have fun. I really wish I'd gotten into it (or
something similar) straight out of college. My social life would have been a
lot better.

~~~
kine
"I'm not an athlete at all, but nobody cares - half the team is just there to
meet people and have fun."

Totally what's important

------
JDuMond
I graduated Dec. '11. There are three things that I wish I had been told about
working after college:

1\. Find a mentor. If you have any flexibility in the projects you work on or
the people you get to work with choose to work with someone who will be a
mentor to you. I think we're all familiar with the benefits of a mentor as a
teacher, but there's another important function of a mentor: they can be a
"cheerleader". A good mentor will talk you up around his co-workers and
management, and make sure that those who don't work directly with know that
you are capable of putting out quality work and that you should be considered
for more interesting/challenging work in the future.

3\. Ask questions. When you start your new job you'll feel like you need to
prove yourself as just as capable as everyone who's been working on the same
project/codebase/technology for years. So you'll stay late banging your head
against the desk trying to solve a problem that has nagged you for days. You
finally breakdown and ask an experienced engineer what he thinks, he says, "Oh
yeah, I've seen this a hundred times. It tricky the first time you come across
it..." and then explains how to fix it in a few minutes. If you had gone to
him earlier you could have increased your productivity and saved your self a
headache. The more experienced engineers are a resource. If you aren't using
all the resources available to you to get work done efficiently, you're not
doing your job.

2\. If you're unhappy with your work, speak up. Your management cannot read
minds. If you find your work soul crushing but you do well on it your
management will keep you there until you burnout. At that point you'll rip off
your clothes and streak through the halls and your management will think, "I
never saw that coming." Your company(probably) wants you to be happy because
if you are you'll be more productive and that adds to there bottom line. Let
your management know that you would like to do other work and they'll try to
move you somewhere you can be happy. It may take time but I've found that just
knowing that you management cares goes a long way to easing the pain. If your
management does care, start working on your resume and browse wanted ads
during lunch.

~~~
gregpilling
To agree with the JDuMond:

1\. If someone gives you good advice, surprise them by taking it.

2\. Ask questions. Just not the same ones over and over again, and not ones
easily answered by Google.

3\. As a manager, remember that I can't tell if you are having a bad day
because you are mad at your spouse or mad at me or ???. So just tell me your
issue, I would like to help.

------
elstevo
I've found that it's easy to let your life become unfocused after leaving
college. Up until graduation, you always had built-in goals on which to focus:
pass that test, find scholarships/jobs, graduate, etc...

After graduating and finding a job, I was suddenly without any pressing
objectives in my life. What's next? Retirement? That's way too far off
(probably). I was working and living my life day-to-day, not unhappy, but sort
of drifting without direction.

As cliché as it sounds, trying to answer the question "where do I want to be
in 1, 5, 10 years" honestly helped. I thought about it for a while and came up
with some vague ideas. Every once in a while, I do a mental progress check and
that helps me see past the daily routine to something greater.

~~~
guard-of-terra
For the most of my life having those external "goais" and having to meet them
was extremelly painful and frustrating for me.

You would not believe how happy the lack of "objectives" made me. I can just
work, have my salary and not be bothered. It's like as you was under
cripppling pain for all of your life and then suddently it is relieved
forever.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
Strange, I found exactly the opposite. I went to industry for a while because
I was _tired_ of goal-seeking and working hard all the damn time, but actually
being there made me feel pressured as all hell.

What I really should have done was exploit my white male upper-middle class
American privilege and travel for a while. After how much I burned myself out
finishing undergrad the way I did, my parents were actually quite willing to
fund it.

But no, I felt the need to get a job and try to "build an adult life". I had
said, "I want my 9-5". I use the scare-quotes because I discovered that short
of being married, with a house, with kids or dogs, there's basically no such
thing, and any attempt to treat a _real_ job as a 9-5 for funding your social
life will inevitably collapse.

Now that I'm "back" in academia on the research-school side (which is,
ironically, the stage I was already at by the end of undergrad, mostly), I'm
actually a good deal happier. I was also pretty happy with my second
industrial job because I got to live where I wanted and work from home, but I
actually really like research and feel far more comfortable working hard in
pursuit of an achievable goal (publish stuff, write thesis, accumulate credit-
points, graduate) rather than just to maintain a hard-working image.

Big Life Lesson: you need to find a lifestyle and environment suited to you,
and you _also_ need to take responsibility for how you run your own life. I
could easily get sucked back into pathological workaholism like many graduate
students, even though I felt crushed by having to keep busy for eight straight
hours in an industrial job. The right work environment is one that makes me
feel want to put in effort, but I also have to cut myself off and go have fun
at some point.

Hmm... that last paragraph sounds too pat.

------
benhebert
This month marks one year out of college for me. 2012 was the most productive
year of my life.

The best advice that I could give anyone is,

"Don't be afraid to be yourself"

While in school a lot of this is defined for you, but the real world will
challenge you in ways you haven't seen. Do not roll over for your job,
friends, girlfriend, whatever.

If you don't know who you are or what you want (none of us really do), try as
many different things as you can. Explore, learn, fail, succeed, cry, laugh...
just experience things and find yourself.

------
baby
No one prepared me to college and I fucked up big times my first years. Makes
me want to write a post about it too.

~~~
kine
Do it!

------
JacksonGariety
Seems like these are instructions for how to live life by default.
Instructions on how to fit into the cogs of the system and not fall into
depression. In my opinion, life should not be like this.

For those who haven't already, you should read this article from HN a few
weeks ago:

[http://www.raptitude.com/2012/07/most-lives-are-lived-by-
def...](http://www.raptitude.com/2012/07/most-lives-are-lived-by-default/)

~~~
dinkumthinkum
Yes, it is basically entirely about being not only a cog but a good little
cog. Honestly, to anyone reading this stuff and looking for direction or
advice on life, don't take from HN. If you listen to anyone on HN at all about
life issues, just listen to the ones that tell you not to listen. This crowd
is too biased toward one direction that it's going to bias in advice toward
that ideal lifestyle. If you really want to be a healthy, skinny, hipster
whose goal in life is to increase the share value of the company he works for
and make his managers happy then a lot of stuff would probably be very useful;
it sounds like a dreadful bore to me. :)

------
nealabq
Remember how those first few weeks of college were intensely social. You meet
a lot of people you'll know the rest of your life. It's a critical time. I
recommend:

Social > academic. But they're intertwined, so work hard, and work with others
in your core area. Be helpful and smart and humble. Don't worry about your
non-core subjects (let others help you).

Don't go nuts with freedom. Go to parties, but drink very little, avoid drugs,
don't get caught up in sex. It's fun, but save it for later.

Don't go back home. Don't have a girlfriend back home. Don't have a girlfriend
at all, this is a time for lots and lots of friends.

Avoid toxic people.

~~~
mbesto
_Go to parties, but drink very little, avoid drugs, don't get caught up in
sex. It's fun, but save it for later. Don't have a girlfriend at all, this is
a time for lots and lots of friends._

I personally think the opposite. It's your 20s, enjoy it while it lasts.

~~~
csmattryder
Totally agree, everything in moderation, though.

I'd rather live with the regret of 'Oh I wish I hadn't done this/that/the
other' than being 50 and looking back on my life regretting I didn't enjoy
myself more.

~~~
dinkumthinkum
Speak to people over 60, they generally regret what they didn't do than what
they did.

~~~
philwelch
People who don't live to 60 generally would have regretted things they did
rather than things they didn't.

~~~
dinkumthinkum
Obviously, if you want to live as a simple cog there's no one stopping you. :)

------
guitarhacks
Nice tips but I already knew that in elementary school. The most important
thing is not the transition after the college or university but your work and
making connections WHILE you are studying. \- You must build your network
while you are studying and find people who you like to work with (look at
Facebook?). Of course that depends on what University you are studying. Better
University, better networks.

\- Besides chasing girls and partying don't just learn to get good grades.
Find something you like to do and work on it, your field of interest etc.

\- Join all kinds of university projects WHILE you are studying that you think
can help in your future job, career. Ask your teacher and tell him: I WANT
MORE :) Especially if he is well known and you think he is awesome. Work more
then everybody else and show him your own projects. He will introduce you to
other interesting people. Latter in your life he can recommend you to someone
or help you in finding a good job (maybe, you never know).

\- Go to other lectures and find interesting people and ideas

\- Don't enjoy your student life too much

If you work on all this your transition will be a lot better after you get
out. I studied with one of the best teachers and performers in my field and he
used to say to his students: "Look at that guy over there (me), you have to be
crazy like him"

~~~
eli_gottlieb
You're picking up lots of downvotes, including from me. I'm going to explain
why.

* Your first point is trite. Everyone says, "find your passion". Guess what? Most real people don't live lives structured around the pursuit of some driving passion -- just like how most people don't become start-up millionaires. You or I in specific may or may not be special, unique snowflakes, but any Life Advice premised on the recipient being a special, unique snowflake is _very bad advice_.

* Your second point combines workaholism with straight-up _brown-nosing_. Nobody likes a brown-noser, and contrary to your apparent thinking, bosses and professors can in fact spot them. Especially professors, actually! My stepfather is an old-hat Electrical Engineering professor, and he has told our family the occasional story about undergrads who were _obviously_ just looking for a nice letter of recommendation or graduate students who could not complete PhDs because they were better at sucking up and obeying orders than original thinking.

* Your third point is trite.

* Your fourth point is... ugh. I don't even have commonly-understood words for this concept. It's like trying to find a word for water in Fish Language. Puritanical? Anti-Spiral? There's something really fucked-up about telling other people to _avoid_ enjoying a valid, valuable part of their life.

Overall, your post comes across as if you're someone who kicks puppies, sucks
up to everyone above him, and only cares about career advancement. If people
in your field say "you have to be crazy" to mean "you have to be a joyless,
semi-sociopathic workaholic", tell me what line of work you're in so I can
avoid it for the rest of time.

~~~
guitarhacks
Hmm..You totally missed my points and managed to insult me and my work,
although the part with puppies was funny :)

* I never said you have to be a snowflake. I know that most men live quite lives of silent desperation, as Thoreau once stated. My first point was about making a network, BEING SOCIAL. And working on something you like.. I am not talking about true passion because for some people they need time to find it. Is it that hard to find something you like and collaborate with other people on it?

* brown noser? I was never nice with teachers. My problem was, since elementary school I mostly did not like my teachers and often times told them what I think. Why is somebody who wants more a brown noser. In my life I had few good teachers and always tried to learn as much as I could from them. I was not like a pest at the lecture or kissing ass. There is a difference. My point was that you alone or with somebody else make a nice project and show it to him or her for example. Not boost on lectures asking stupid questions.

* whats wrong with going to other lectures?

* Of course you have to enjoy your life at the Uni, I did. But also some people do it too much. I just wrote don't do it too much.

My teacher meant crazy because I would stay for all the classes and listen to
the all the lectures while other people would goo home after theirs, there
were other things as well.. now we come to my profession. I studied at the
Mozarteum in Salzburg, classical guitar with one of the best guitarists today.
And I was the youngest student, age 15. I visited lots of other universities
including Juilliard etc. and played in US and Europe. Maybe that will clarify
some things and explain the crazy comment. I also did audio programming, jazz,
composition with other people as well. And I was crazy about linux, still am.
I would argue how better is from windows etc. In short, avoid me next time you
go to the concert hall :) Maybe my style and English is a bit brash but all I
wanted was to give some tips based on my insights. Here is my recording from
youtube <http://youtu.be/n9c48k4FDx8> My sincerity and truth telling is clear
from this music.

------
sown
One thing I noticed is that it is very, very lonely. I'm still trying to
figure out ways to meet people and make friends, good friends even. No dice.

Maybe I'm just not very fun to be around.

~~~
quit
Or maybe you should stop trying so hard to meet people and make friends and
just be

~~~
sown
What do you mean?

If I don't try then I just stay at home.

~~~
quit
I mean that, especially for introverts, trying hard to make friends usually is
counterproductive. If instead you start finding things you actually enjoy and
start enjoying them (forgetting there's people around) it's easier to engage
in productive interactions

~~~
sown
> If instead you start finding things you actually enjoy and start enjoying
> them (forgetting there's people around) it's easier to engage in productive
> interactions

I've tried that but I didn't see the same phenomena. But thanks for the
suggestion. I also find that I don't really enjoy anything nowadays.

------
jtheory
Advice I'd add: pay careful attention to the responsibilities you take on.

Owning a car -- you have to maintain it, possibly repair it occasionally,
insure it, etc.. A pet is quite a large one -- want to travel for a few
months? And you'll probably have that dog for the next 10-15 years, and they
may get sick along the way. Owning a house, of course, but also renting -- you
have to deal with minor damage, rent, keeping the landlord informed ("I didn't
notice water started leaking in during the winter" is very bad).

Debt, of course -- what if you can't quit an exhausting job you detest,
because you're paying down large debts?

Many of these things are rewarding (I love having a dog, for example, though
it does make some things hard...) -- I'm not saying don't do them, just
realize what you're trading. Take on new responsibilities one at a time, and
do it with your eyes open.

I personally wish I'd been slower to take on new responsibilities when I was
first out of college -- my first salary seemed huge, and so I traded up my
$900 car for a $12K one, married my long-time girlfriend in a way-too-
expensive wedding, and got a puppy... not mistakes, per se, but it was all
much too fast.

------
justhw
Not a main issue but this _... put everyone’s phone in a bag. Great
conversations ensue._ Seeing phones out around a table bothers me terribly.

------
braveheart1723
\- Don't sell out. Find out what you love whether it's design, programming,
assembly, hacking stuff, building stuff, whatever... and do that.

If you sell out, at the beginning you might make loads of $$$, it'll be
amazing, maybe you'll make more than your dad ever made, maybe you'll buy
yourself a 70" TV but trust me... 3 to 5 years in. You'll be that annoying guy
that tells all his friends he sold out and really wished to have been an
actor, a sportsman, an artist, a musician, an animator.

\- Save enough $$$ for 6months of living without work, all of a sudden you'll
be a lot pickier on what you work on.

\- watch <http://www.beautyisembarrassing.com/>

------
mhewett
As a 55 year old I would say that this is exactly right, especially the part
about keeping yourself healthy, both physically and mentally. I have, and it
has paid off.

I would add one item to the list: Set a 5-year goal and update it every year.

------
hamzilla
The comfort zone one is important. I know a lot of people that stop growing
their skills because the money is flowing and it's easy. When you stop
growing, it's probably time to move on.

------
lalmalang
I dont usually bring it up, but curious - am I the only one who finds a blurb
like this a bit unseemly:

    
    
      If you enjoyed this post, I’d be humbled if you’d follow me on Twitter.

~~~
paulgb
I think it's an intentional play on the infamous "you should follow me on
twitter" sign-off popularized by Dustin Curtis[1] and propagated by bloggers
who don't understand the limitations of split-testing.

[1]
[http://www.dustincurtis.com/you_should_follow_me_on_twitter....](http://www.dustincurtis.com/you_should_follow_me_on_twitter.html)

------
iammc
From personal experience: don't do anything for the money, ever.

~~~
bradleyy
My dad always said, "Son, if it's worth doing, it's worth doing for money."

~~~
gvb
I believe the equivalent quote for the OP would be more like "Son, if there is
money in it, it must be worth doing." Quite a different thing.

------
brackin
I haven't gone to College, I've gone out from High School and started building
a startup. Doesn't apply so much to me because when I wasn't working in school
I was up all night getting a few hours of sleep after working on projects.

------
sayemm
Recent college grads should read Charlie Hoehn's ebook, _Recession-Proof
Graduate_ \- <http://charliehoehn.com/rpgrad/>

------
j45
The one fun one: If you think you're done learning, you're done.

------
WalterBright
Probably what I miss most about college is living off the same hall as most of
your friends, who you're around 24 hours a day. There was always something fun
going on.

------
michaelochurch
What got me in the adult world was "4.0 syndrome". (Well, my actual GPA wasn't
4.0, but close.) Not that I was used to getting great grades and had a rude
awakening, because school was a lot more intellectually challenging than 95+
percent of what I encountered in the real world, but that school led me to
believe the world was more meritocratic, fair, and straight-forward than it
actually is.

For example, some teachers were better than others-- I actually lucked out and
had mostly good ones-- but I never had a teacher who went out of his way to be
unfair. But I've had more than one manager who was outright scummy. School
doesn't prepare you for this, because while there are demanding teachers,
unfair or corrupt ones (while they exist) are extraordinarily rare.

Also, in college, you have career coherence. The work that is put in front of
you is designed to teach you the basic concepts, so you'll usually learn
something from it. The rare cases where this isn't the case are when you have
outright incompetent professors. Either way, though, if you do the work you
will usually get the knowledge and credibility that you need for your career.
Useless, unappreciated busy-work is quite rare in college, but it's common in
the work world.

To get anything close to 100% career coherence at work, you have to actively
manage your career. If you just do what your manager tells you to do, you're
probably looking at 25%, which means you get 1 year of real progress per 4 of
work.

In the real world, the deadlines aren't well-tested. They might be unrealistic
or make no sense. The work isn't designed to teach you things, and if you
graduate past the work you're being assigned and are ready to move on, that
comes down more to social skills than anything else. In school, you can skip
grades. In work, you actually need social engineering (or frequent job
changes) to progress faster than the slow players for whom the typical track
is designed.

"4.0 Syndrome" is seen heavily in startups and investment banking analyst
programs, because there's a crop of 22-year-olds every year who will meet
every "deadline" no matter how ridiculous. They haven't learned that many
real-world "deadlines" are just made up times that are often impossible to
meet. (In school, they're also "made up times", but there are a large number
of people facing the same deadlines, and they'll generally moved if they're
really unreasonable.)

It's also a dangerous trait to have, because it can lead you to over-perform
at work, which in most office cultures is more dangerous than underperforming
because (a) you become a target for adversity, and (b) you lose social polish
if you overwork yourself, and social success is more important than raw
"performance".

~~~
bicx
I agree with you. I began my corporate career (explained a few posts below)
with the mentality that if I worked hard and worked smart, I would be
rewarded. Well, I worked for 3 years, and was only promoted once. That
promotion just moved me from the first level to second level developer (in a
big company, a promotion essentially just means a raise and title change from
<bla bla> I to <bla bla> II). That promotion came with a slightly higher
salary, but it also came with ineligibility for overtime pay. As a result, my
overall pay-per-hour kinda sank. I didn't care though. I still thought doing a
good job would pay off well in the end.

Well, one day I asked my manager for a private meeting and asked for a
promotion. I was performing at the level of people several levels above me,
and I thought I brought more value to the company than I was being compensated
for. What he eventually said echoes in my mind: "Sometimes it's possible for
you to grow too fast in your career." The idea that there was some sort of
meritocracy came shattering down, and it started dawning on me why they had
mediocre software even with so many developers. For those of us doing the
actual work, there was no real reward for being the guy with the solution.
There was no motivation. This wasn't a place for anyone who expected to be
appreciated for hard work. They probably just looked at me and thought, "Hah,
that's cute that he's trying so hard."

So I ditched the corporate world, took a slight pay decrease, and now I work
for a great startup. The end. ;)

~~~
SatvikBeri
Wanting to avoid this fate is essentially what led me to learn social skills &
politics. I literally doubled the profits of one 40-person company and
received nothing but a "congratulations."

One of the best things you can do is work out an agreement beforehand. Say,
"If I accomplish X, Y, and Z in the next year, that's definitely worth (reward
Q)." You probably can't get this in writing, but almost any boss will honor
their word after a highly specific agreement. This tactic is (part of) how I
got a double promotion just 8 months after joining one of the most
bureaucratic companies in the world-where the average time for a promotion was
_7 years_.

From a manager's perspective, agreeing to a promotion in exchange for a
certain level of performance feels like a business transaction. But being
asked for a promotion _after_ an employee has accomplished something feels
like you're just paying more for the same work. Irrational, but true.

(By the way, if anyone ever wants advice on salary negotiations/corporate
politics, I'm always happy to help fellow HNers. My email is in my profile.)

~~~
thisone
>Say, "If I accomplish X, Y, and Z in the next year, that's definitely worth
(reward Q)." You probably can't get this in writing, but almost any boss will
honor their word after a highly specific agreement.

I've had that in writing, accomplished X, Y, Z and had the reward refused,
seemingly at a whim (in truth, the company couldn't afford to keep the promise
at that point in time and used whatever cover they could to not pay the
promised reward). However, it did provide bargaining power in the future,
though I felt dirty afterwards.

I could probably use the negotiation/politics advice ;)

~~~
michaelochurch
One thought I would contribute regarding negotiation is that, while you might
not get what you want, you can usually get something. If they can't pay you,
then ask for a title or autonomy or a better project. These are "free" but can
be very valuable, in the long run, for your career.

You almost never get everything you want out of a negotiation, but you can
almost always get something.

------
frozenport
>>Play with your schedule. Wake up earlier, go to bed later. Time-shifting is
your friend.

This is bad advice, in college you can skip classes and choose where to fail,
you can't skip meetings and your mistakes live can't be dismissed. Having an
inconsistent sleep schedule is a great way to mess up your life.

