
Apple Card - punnerud
https://www.apple.com/applecard
======
retrac98
Banking in the states must be pretty awful, because as someone living in the
UK, I don't think there's anything here I don't already get with my existing
bank accounts.

I can pay with my phone or a tap of my card pretty much everywhere, most banks
have pretty advanced apps and APIs now, I don't think credit cards (or credit
card debt) is as much of a "thing" here either.

I'm not saying it's bad, it looks nice and convenient, but it's not really a
world changing banking disruption either. It just looks like an Apple branded
version of what I've already had for years.

~~~
dangus
It isn't world-changing in the US either, but a lot of people think it is
because they aren't familiar with the vast credit card offerings in the US.

Credit card debt is definitely a thing in the US and it's nice that the Apple
Card has some visualizations, but they also aren't unique to this card.

\- Spending analysis tools: Most large US banks have this on their app or
website.

\- Cash back: a rather standard feature, and Apple's own rate isn't any better
than other alternatives (Citi Double Cash for example). Quite a lot worse if
you don't see yourself making most purchases with Apple Pay. Most online
purchases will get the paltry 1% rate.

\- You can actually get a better discount from Apple.com using other cards,
believe it or not. Take the Chase Freedom Unlimited's 1.5% off everything,
then add the 2 bonus points using the shopping browser cookie feature on the
rewards website, so as long as you buy stuff online you're getting 3.5% off
the Apple Store instead of 3%.

\- Payment due dates always at the end of the month: Doesn't actually make any
sort of a difference, usually due dates only change by a day or two at most.

\- Due Date reminders: Email already accomplished this

\- Real time fraud protection: Major US Bank cards already do this, usually
via SMS or email

\- Mapped transactions: I'm pretty sure some other banks do this but I will
say it's somewhat helpful/innovative

\- The fact that the Apple Card has no numbers or magnetic strip on it is
something I consider a disadvantage. Yes, the USA is far behind on going 100%
chip and contactless. However, US customers aren't liable for any fraud over
$50 and most card issuers make that dollar amount zero.

Edit: I'm noticing that the Apple Card does allow a semi-permanent number to
be generated, which does require you to have your phone around to look at it,
it seems.

I _don 't care_ if someone steals my credit card number. That's not my
problem. It's my bank's problem.

Not being able to use a credit card at a particular merchant because their
point of sale system only has a card swiper _is_ a problem to me. (Edit: Seems
that Apple card has a magnetic strip. But if a merchant has to type in more
info than the last 4 digits into their POS system you can't use an Apple
Card).

I will say, in the US, the support for chip cards is now at nearly 100% and
this year contactless has made major strides.

~~~
gibolt
You will care when someone steals your number, although it likely won't be
from the card.

Banks will often make you jump through hoops when something goes really wrong,
even when they are at fault.

------
ryanmonroe
Cashback is 2% for purchases made with Apple Pay, 1% otherwise, and 3% for
Apple Purchases (for those too lazy to find that info on the site)

~~~
mey
If someone is looking for a good rewards card (in the US), I suggest taking a
look at the Costco/Citibank card.

~~~
Someone1234
1% cashback on most purchases. 2% at Costco (requires membership). 3% at
restaurants and pre-selected travel related purchases. 4% on gas. Requires
Costco membership to redeem cashback.

In my opinion most people are better off with Fidelity's flat 2% card on all
purchases ("Rewards Visa Signature Card"). No annual fees.

------
AdmiralAsshat
2019: When the tech companies hit a ceiling of profit they could make through
conventional business transactions, they decided to become banks.

~~~
vessenes
I would say it's the reverse -- tech companies gain more market value from
customer stickiness than banks generate in fees fucking over customers. The
difficulty using this knowledge in the US has been regulatory and compliance
related.

------
miohtama
The advertised payment UX use cases are already covered in Europe by
challenger bank debit cards/apps like Revolut and N26. Apple is not really
innovating here, but taking the model from startups and executing it within
their large loyal audience.

This will make it difficult for challenger banks to get foothold in the US.
Furthermore if Apple Card is supplied out of the box with iPhones, it might
definitely change dynamics in card markets.

Edit: Even the site has similar dynamics as Revolut front page minus
cryptocurrency scenarios [https://www.revolut.com/](https://www.revolut.com/)

~~~
freehunter
>Apple is not really innovating here

Every now and again I like to remind people that Apple doesn't really do
"innovation". They do polish and mass-market appeal. Apple's rarely ever first
to the table with any technology. They take what others are doing on a limited
scale and ramp it up to the mainstream with a spit-shine.

~~~
distdev89
Haha! Made me laugh. From the top of my head: 1\. FaceId 2\. App Store that
actually works for customers not against them. 3\. Privacy respecting web
browsers 4\. iPhone - literally 5\. iPad 6\. iPod

~~~
Sohcahtoa82
Apple didn't invent any of those. They took existing technology and gave it a
lot of polish.

FaceId: Facial recognition and the ability to unlock your phone with just your
face existed on Android before iPhone.

App store that actually works for customers not against them: I've never had
problems with Google's Store, or Steam, or any other digital store.

Privacy respecting web browser: Uh...Firefox?

iPhone/iPad/iPod: Apple did not invent the slate form-factor every phone uses
today, and they _certainly_ didn't invent the idea of a tablet computer.

Simply put, Apple isn't a tech company. They're a fashion company that makes
technology fashionable. They're kings of UX and marketing, for sure, but
innovators? Definitely not.

~~~
distdev89
Lets all hate together?

Apple did not invent the slate form-factor every phone uses today Ever seen a
blackberry in the last 10 years? A phone with a keyboard? A phone with a
dialpad? Literally hand held computing is divided between Before iPhone and
After iPhone.

Google Store? You mean the store where they allow anyone to host malware? Just
"google" the number of apps that have malware on the Google Store.

Face ID on Android? over 2 years since FaceId but Android still can't enable
you to do payments using Face Recognition because they don't have confidence
in their camera system.

Safari was doing anti-web tracking way before Firefox was relevant again. Lets
not even talk about mobile Firefox.

Literally the iPod changed the music industry. Hold on think about this, a
single device changed how people heard, distributed and discovered music. If
that's not an invention I'm not sure what is.

To be fair, I also think Apple hires some of the most creative marketing and
UX folks.

~~~
Legogris
> Lets all hate together?

I'm not sure why you assume negativity here? I have been a happy owner and
user of several Apple products throughout the years and I think that from a
business perspective they have been really nailing down market timing, one of
the hardest things to get right with new products. If you're really doubling
down on this angle, then I guess we're all doing innovation in some sense as
long as we're adding _anything_ new. Is Tinder also an innovation because of
its success?

------
ValentineC
From the page:

> _An Apple Cash card is required. The Apple Cash card is issued by Green Dot
> Bank, Member FDIC. See www.apple.com /apple-pay for more information. If you
> do not have an Apple Cash account, Daily Cash can be applied by you as a
> credit on your statement balance. Daily Cash is subject to exclusions, and
> additional details apply._

(I'm not based in the US.) I'm guessing most US-based Apple customers already
have an "Apple Cash" relationship/account with Green Dot Bank?

~~~
pwinnski
I don't think most of us had ever heard of Green Dot Bank before today. It
appears to be a legal entity representing Goldman Sachs, which I'd at least
hard of.

~~~
ac29
Green Dot is a provider of prepaid debit cards - it doesnt have anything to do
with Goldman.

------
tempsy
This is a really, really mediocre card as far as rewards go. No sign up bonus
(nearly unheard of these days), might average 1.2% cash back if you use Apple
Pay a lot (with exception of maybe a business buying a lot of Apple products -
in which case should be spending on a business card). There are a few no-fee
cards I can think of that give at least 2% on all purchases - most notably
Citi's Double Cash Back card.

The only reason why I could see someone wanting this card is the novelty.

~~~
arnvald
Banks offer sign-up bonus in order to bring more customers and they hope that
after a year these customers will stay and start paying annual fee and keep
using the card.

I'm sure Apple feels they will get huge interest in their card even without a
signup bonus, so there's no need to offer it.

~~~
tempsy
Right - it's a confusing strategy IMO. In general wealthier people who
probably don't revolve credit (e.g. pay in full each month) want premium
rewards, which this doesn't offer at all, so my hunch is that this will appear
to more middle income/lower income individuals who pay interest (cost of
interest negate any rewards), which is a bit strange since the
branding/marketing and Apple (+ Goldman Sachs) generally target wealthier
individuals.

------
maliker
Hey! Get back to fixing the MacBook!

Just kidding. It's cool to see the Apple design approach applied to a
financial product. I'm happy with my current card, but I admit this is a much
better designed experience (spend tracking, billing, customer support,
software integration).

------
Chico75
> Get 3% back on everything you buy from Apple, whether you buy it at an Apple
> Store, apple.com, the App Store, or iTunes.

Might be the most interesting part?

~~~
redisman
That's worse than most cashback cards which aren't limited to Apple purchases.

~~~
pwinnski
This is false. Experience churners can come up with cards that meet this, and
beat it under some circumstances, but that's not "most" by any means.

------
HeavenFox
The most interesting thing I learned today is: according to TPG, most
customers will only need to provide the last four digits of SSN to apply.

On the one hand, this seems great for privacy - you can't leak information you
don't collect, right? On the other hand, does this mean someone can
impersonate you with just the last four now?

~~~
rootusrootus
A little known fact is that you've never actually _needed_ your SSN to open a
credit account. They can and will locate your file just fine without it.

------
dan-robertson
The card has no numbers on it so I wonder what they would do in the
(admittedly very rare) case when the card network is down. Usually merchants
can produce an ancient machine to take a copy of the card number (similar to
what they would do before telephone based payment networks were a thing) when
the payment network isn’t reachable. I don’t think that it’s a case that
matters at all but I’m curious to know if it’s one that is considered.

I would have thought that all credit/debit cards had to have raised numbers in
a certain place but perhaps Mastercard can make some exception for apple (or
other banks never bothered to try to do something a bit different).

~~~
pwinnski
You can generate a card number on your phone for use with online transactions,
so I imagine that would work in this instance.

------
justapassenger
Nothing says "we care about people" like partnering with Goldman Sachs to
deliver financial product /s

~~~
chrisseaton
What's your issue with Goldman Sachs?

~~~
LeoPanthera
Goldman has been accused of an assortment of misdeeds, including a general
decline in ethical standards, working with dictatorial regimes, cozy
relationships with the US federal government via a "revolving door" of former
employees, insider trading by some of its traders, and driving up prices of
commodities through futures speculation.

Wikipedia has a whole separate article about their controversial practices.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs_controversies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs_controversies)

(Disclaimer: I don't see this as a reason to avoid the Apple Card, but someone
should play devil's advocate here.)

~~~
filoleg
Fully agreed. I don't think anyone can dispute the fact that Goldman has done
a ton of bad stuff, but none of that seems to have any relationship with the
matter at hand, i.e., being a backing entity for a credit card (which, to me,
seems like something that you cannot really fuck up tbh).

------
posix_compliant
The presence of large oligarchical financial institutions makes me feel a
little panic, so I make a point to check out “challenger” banks like, Zero[1],
Chime[2], and N26[3].

(I’d reccommend Zero here because it, I think, is the only one supporting a
credit card).

[1] zero.app [2] chimebank.com [3] n26.com

------
rileyt
I still have a few privacy questions that I can't find answers to: 1\. Will
merchants that you purchase from know your name? 2\. Does it work with online
stores that don't support Apple Pay? Will you have to use your real name and
billing address?

~~~
t3rabytes
1\. Yes, it's a normal credit card. 2\. Yes, you can generate a new virtual
card number with a CCV and expiration date in Wallet. 3\. Yes, probably.
Though most places don't actually verify that info, or they only care about
the zip.

~~~
skissane
> or they only care about the zip

A couple of weeks ago I was in New York City, and I needed to buy a MetroCard
from a vending machine at the entrance of a subway station. I stick my credit
card (issued by a major Australian bank) into the machine. I proceed to pay.
Then it asks me for my ZIP code. Living in Australia, I don't have a US ZIP
code, but I do have a four digit Australian postal code. I try entering my
four digit Australian postal code – it doesn't accept it, wrong number of
digits. So then I just try 90210. That works, it processes the transaction and
gives me the MetroCard.

------
gt565k
Hmm says no international fees, but what vendors would actually accept the
apple card? Is applecard VISA/MasterCard or its own thing? How does this work
with vendors if I'm a customer trying to use the apple card? Who accepts it?

~~~
gt565k
answered my own question

If you need to pay for purchases that can't be made with Apple Pay, you can
use the physical version of the Apple Card that Apple sends once you sign up.
In addition to Goldman Sachs, Apple is partnering with Mastercard, so the
physical Apple Card can be used wherever Mastercard is accepted.

~~~
Someone1234
The Apple Pay app will also generate a virtual card number for you, so you can
use it over the internet as a mastercard.

Unclear if the virtual card number rotates (it would be a huge value-add if it
did).

------
cjoelrun
Anybody planning on using this? Is it due to privacy or convenience (app
stuff)? My current card get's 2.5% back on everything, plus other cards with
rotating 3-5% categories. Not sure I will just to this just due to that .05%.

~~~
jaden
What's the 2.5% back card? The highest flat rate cash back card I know of is
Citi Double Cash at 2%.

~~~
HeavenFox
Alliant has a 2.5% back card ([https://www.alliantcreditunion.org/bank/visa-
signature-card)...](https://www.alliantcreditunion.org/bank/visa-signature-
card\);) it does have annual fee though, so unless you spend a lot of money on
non-bonused categories it is probably not worth it. Or if you can stash $100K
with BoA or Merrill, BoA Travel Rewards give you 2.625% back (1.5% back + 75%
bonus), with no annual fee.

------
r1nkgrl
Personally, I hate this style of webpage. I have to furiously scroll just to
get past the title animation, which results in zooming past the rest of the
content.

------
tempsy
Even if you bought a lot of Apple products I would not recommend getting this
card just for the 3% back.

FWIW I almost always use Cashback portals (e.g. check
[https://www.cashbackmonitor.com/cashback-store/apple-
store/](https://www.cashbackmonitor.com/cashback-store/apple-store/)) when
buying stuff online. Super easy way to get 2-3x points/$ or cashback is that
usually at least 3% in addition to whatever cashback you might earn on your
credit card.

------
koiz
Took years for this to become a reality, one of the reasons why they likely
had to find a partner to pull it off.

------
pastor_elm
You would think Apple would offer a better reward in exchange for your
purchasing history data.

------
olliej
I'm not sure I see what makes this card magically different from other cards?

I would be more impressed if they just said "we have a [expletive] tonne of
money, lets charge like half the interest rate of other credit cards, after
all we'll still make a tonne of money, especially when everyone switches to a
vastly cheaper card"

------
athenot
As Apple is partnering with Morgan Stanley, I couldn't help but notice that
the later's market capitalization is still lower than Apple's cash on hand:
they could buy them in cash.

I wonder if financial services will be the next phase in Apple's growth.

------
chirau
They started sending out invites to the card today

------
033803throwaway
the florentine pattern repeats again: start a manufacturer, end a usurer

nihil sub sole novum

