
What to do if you’re stopped by the police - cassbot
https://cassandraxia.com/writing/police.html
======
CodeAndCuffs
Former cop here. The article states "You cannot lie to the police". This is,
generally, incorrect. Some jurisdictions may have some specific law, but other
than certain exceptions, lying has no general consequence. If it did, there
would be a lot more charges against pretty much everyone who has been
arrested. In my experience, people will lie about stuff that's not even
relevant, or helpful to them.

Exceptions include things like giving a fake ID or name/dob or SSN to avoid
certain identifications (e.g. on a traffic stop). Also, lying to a federal
agent during their investigation is illegal, to my understanding. In Virginia,
if you lie to the police regarding the investigation of a different person
than yourself, it is considered obstruction of justice, though I can think of
maybe one time that I heard of that law being used that way.

But in general, it's a good article. Assert your rights politely, but firmly.
If the cop disregards it, don't try to stop them. If the cop does illegal
stuff violating 4th and 5th amendment, there's a chance the case gets tossed
(as it should). If you try to physically stop the 4th amendment violation, and
you're wrong about it being a violation, you just made your problem worse.

Of the people who've accused me of violating their rights, 0 have been
correct, but plenty of people have asserted their rights, and stopped an
investigation that I had reasonable suspicion, but not probable cause on, and
no further means to reasonably develop PC.

~~~
bsanr2
I'm still unclear on what to do when a police officer has demonstrated intent
to hurt or kill you, despite your cooperation.

~~~
fouc
>Police have a tough job. They are on the lookout for any sign of danger. Make
it clear that you are a sane, reasonable person. Keep your hands visible at
all times. Avoid the element of surprise.

> If you have any weapons or potentially dangerous items on you, keep your
> hands visible at all times and inform the officer. Inform the officer of
> your every move, if you need to reach for anything (your identification,
> your registration, etc.).

~~~
bsanr2
_I 'm still unclear on what to do when a police officer has demonstrated
intent to hurt or kill you, despite your cooperation._

~~~
AstralStorm
Pick up sticks and get away as fast as possible. Expect to be shot at.

You _can_ run from many kinds of encounters with Police when there's no
presumption of guilt.

They're not allowed to use force in pursuit unless necessary, and running does
not make it necessary on its own.

Fighting back is a good way to end up in jail as well as dead. Running can
result in you getting away free at least.

------
leggomylibro
Good advice, and that "Don't Talk to the Police" video is a classic must-watch
for everyone who comes of age in the US.

One other thing which goes along with being polite and courteous, never lie
outright to an officer. Use weasel words like, "not that I can think of" or,
"I'm not sure why you would think that." That might sound suspicious at first
glance, but they'll assume in the moment that just about any direct statement
is a lie, anyways.

And even when you are completely confident in your universal innocence, any
direct statement can be made to sound like a lie by an officer who wants to
keep you off balance. Think like you're dealing with Cardinal Richelieu, who
famously said: "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most
honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him."

It's really best to avoid any encounter with cops in the US; we do not
practice "policing by consent". Obey basic traffic laws and don't speak to
officers on the street, even if you think doing so might help someone. Here
and now, all it takes is one bad apple to give your life a terrible and
irrevocable turn for the worse, assuming that you are lucky enough to leave
the encounter with your life.

Don't get me wrong, I've left plenty of interactions thinking about how polite
and professional the officer who I had been speaking to was. But I've also
experienced plenty of cops who were callous, dishonest, insecure, and
predatory, and we do not have any institutional safeguards to remove them from
positions of authority. So any interaction with the law in the US is a roll of
the dice, with your life/career/family/etc on the line. Are you feeling lucky?

~~~
jdkee
“ One other thing which goes along with being polite and courteous, never lie
outright to an officer. Use weasel words like, "not that I can think of" or,
"I'm not sure why you would think that." That might sound suspicious at first
glance, but they'll assume in the moment that just about any direct statement
is a lie, anyways.”

This is really bad advice. You need to re-watch the video you alluded to in
your first paragraph.

You do not talk to police. Period. Unless you are asking a.) if you are being
detained or b.) asking if you are being placed under arrest. Or to state your
legal name.

~~~
leggomylibro
It's a fair point, but I'm kind of getting tired of responding to it. I think
that such an absolutist stance can be more harmful than helpful in some
situations, and that view is backed by my anecdotal but not-insignificant
experience.

Some officers do not care about your rights or the law, and if you demand a
lawyer when they ask how much cash is in the vehicle after they pull you over
for doing 37 in a 35 zone, then you and your lawyer are going to spend a
little while dealing with the matter.

Whereas if you give nothing away while remaining polite and courteous and
aware that you are probably being lied to, you might drive off with a warning.
You might still need to fall back to "am I being detained", but you might not.
Sometimes you simply can't completely avoid a conversation, especially when
the other party can physically compel you and make up an excuse later.

There is no universal good advice for such difficult and varied situations,
and acting as though there is doesn't do anyone any favors. That's why I like
this article and commented on it; the author provides useful knowledge and
references without being overly prescriptive.

And incidentally, the absolutist "never speak at all" part of the James Duane
talk comes with the caveat, "if you are being suspected of a serious crime".
The article seems to be more about officer-knocks-on-your-door or traffic stop
sort of situations.

~~~
mirimir
> if you demand a lawyer when they ask how much cash is in the vehicle after
> they pull you over for doing 37 in a 35 zone

Why would they do that? Is that about being a drug dealer?

I've probably been pulled over for speeding and/or crazy driving at least 30
times, and I've never been asked that.

~~~
artificialLimbs
I wonder if they go fishing for a big catch sometimes.

I was pulled over for expired tags a couple weeks ago by city police. They
asked for IDs for my wife and friend in the back seat. Our 2 year old was with
us as well, in his car seat. We are all quite caucasian, in case anyone is
wondering.

I have no idea why we were asked this, but I declined the request. We got a
warning for the tags.

~~~
nbar1
To check for outstanding warrants.

------
jdoliner
Every time something like this comes up I'm reminded of one time I was stopped
by a police officer walking down the street. I felt a tap on my shoulder,
turned around and was greeted by an officer in uniform, I wracked my brain
trying to remember what I'd read on the internet about talking to the police
and was just about to blurt out "Am I under arrest or am I free to go
officer?" When he told me: "You dropped your wallet a ways back son, here you
go" and handed it to me. "Thank you officer." I said sheepishly, and went on
my way.

Not to say that this isn't great advice that people should follow in general.

~~~
catalogia
My rule of thumb is to treat cops the way I'd like to be treated if I was in
their shoes. Which is to say, with a pleasant but firm demeanor. I don't
consent to searches and I don't volunteer much of any information, but I treat
them as respectfully as I'd treat any other stranger I encountered. Pleasant
smiles, "have a nice day", etc. The same as I'd treat a retail worker.

My brother pulled the _" AM I BEING DETAINED"_ routine with a cop during a
traffic stop when he was 17 and it didn't go very well for him. Knowing your
rights and being firm about it is important, but on the other hand you don't
want to sound like a cop-hating sovereign citizen, since those of people make
cops afraid and fear is not an emotion you want to encourage during
interactions with the police.

~~~
SamReidHughes
What an amateur. Your brother should have told the officer his traffic stop
was unconstitional, under the 1st amendment, because his driving is a form of
self-expression.

~~~
catalogia
I know right? He didn't even cite maritime law and claim to be 'traveling'!

~~~
solotronics
Taking a step back and looking at the situation there really should be a way
to "opt out" and still physically be in some part of the country. By that I
mean opt out of taxes, any and all civil services, and public use things,
basically everything that taxes pay for. There might have to be a zone of the
country designated for this for "self sufficient community". Thinking about it
Amish are already kind of this way already.

I'm not saying you should be exempt from laws but there should be some legal
way to opt out of the system, as a safety valve at least.

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
When large groups of people congeal into one area, power heirarchies naturally
emerge(power in this case being defined as the capacity to influence the
behavior of others). Government is merely a codification of this power
structure into (ideally) a stable system. If such an anarchist haven was made,
it would most likely eventually form its own government, defeating the purpose
of the anarchist haven in the first place.

------
quicklime
> "I'm going to remain silent. I'd like to see a lawyer."

On TV shows, the guy would then call his lawyer, who is under a retainer or
something. The lawyer has all the context on exactly what's going on, and
tells him exactly what to do, and he gets off free.

But as someone who doesn't have a lawyer, what exactly happens if and when the
cop agrees to this?

Are they obligated to provide me with a lawyer? Or do I need to know one, or
know how to find one? Do I need to do this while detained or do I have some
time to do it?

~~~
simple_phrases
Anything you say after "I want a lawyer" isn't admissable in court. A smart
cop would end their questioning there.

~~~
lonelappde
Sadly, this is not true. The police can say you were joking and some (racist)
judges believe it.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-
crime/wp/2017/11/02...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-
crime/wp/2017/11/02/the-suspect-told-police-give-me-a-lawyer-dog-the-court-
says-he-wasnt-asking-for-a-lawyer/)

------
toadi
Title should be if you get stopped in the US by the police. The US until today
is not the world. In my country have been stopped by police a lot. Most of the
time they are civilized. Some cases they can come over as dicks but as long as
you don't escalate the situation and stay friendly nothing will happen.

~~~
knocte
THIS. In any other country that is not the US, the advice given by the article
is really bad advice.

~~~
tasuki
What would be better advice for, say, most of EU?

~~~
knocte
Do what you are told. If you have nothing to hide, you will not get into
trouble.

~~~
tasuki
Thank you!

------
dmalvarado
Main problem with this advice is, I can either assert my rights on principle,
be detained, possibly held in lockup, deal with the lawyers and courts...

Or I can just let them look in my empty trunk.

I say this with full awareness of how fucked up it is, but your bet is to be
white and polite.

~~~
laurieg
Unfortunately, where I live (Japan), asserting your rights and refusing a
search is seen as probable cause. "If you were innocent you would just consent
to the search" is how the thinking goes.

~~~
AlexCoventry
How does that attitude interact with article 35 of the Japanese constitution,
which prohibits search and seizure without a warrant with adequate cause?

~~~
laurieg
I am not a lawyer so I can't really give much of an opinion on this aspect. My
layman's reading of that party of the constitution seems to suggest that
searching people like this would be unlawful, but perhaps it had been judged
in the past that not consenting to a search is sufficiently suspicious.

The other common tactic I have seen is when the police want someone but cannot
search or arrest then straightaway they physically surround them. 4+ police
officers will stand around the person in such a way as to stop them from
leaving without touching an officer. If the person pushes past the police they
get arrested for assault. These stand offs can last for literally hours, in
which case the police will rotate it in shifts.

I don't work in a legal profession , I just happen to live on a street with
lots of bars, nightclubs and a particularly active police station.

~~~
lovemenot
What you say may well happen like this occasionally, but I would question the
police's imputed motive. At least in general.

My wife works in mental health in Japan. Nurses use this exact technique to
contain potentially violent situations. Not for legal purposes, but for the
safety of themselves, the patient who is surrounded and of others too.

It's pretty effective in de-escalating and does not induce force from either
party.

Again, not saying this system is never abused, but in general it's safer for
all parties not to up the ante in using force for the purpose of getting a
faster resolution.

~~~
AstralStorm
This is unconstitutional way of limiting movement, even by Japanese
Constitution which is lax, and not allowed by statute for police operations.

Restraining movement does not require enclosure or other technical means, yet
is still illegal. Police can literally stop you for a few reasons and no more.

If you literally tell the police to move away because they're illegally
preventing you from moving in clear terms, if they hit you while you push
through they're committing assault. Treat it like any other police brutality
in court.

The first thing you have to do in this abuse of power situation is to get
evidence, and by stupid Japanese law you're not allowed to take photographs of
policemen I think, so get something else, like sound recording.

Suing them would be a fun pastime for someone rich, and a way to get the
prosecutor to throw the case.

Of course of they really want you for something illegal, they will get you in
some other way.

------
chadcmulligan
So on the hacker news front page today:

Colleges are closing because they're to expensive

What to do if you're stopped by police

The Top 10 books include 1984 and Fahrenheit 451

all we need is something about medical insurance sending people broke and the
ever present incarceration rate.

You guys should really fix this (not an American), its not that hard.

~~~
masonic

      The Top 10 books include 1984 and Fahrenheit 451
    

No, the top ten books _checked out_ in the _history of the NYC Public Library_
include those two titles.

Fixing one's reading comprehension (or intellectual honesty) isn't that hard,
either.

~~~
chadcmulligan
Thats the point you're arguing?

~~~
P_I_Staker
Knowing the top books in the NYC library is relevant and interesting
information, not an endorsement of "top" books everywhere in the world.

------
theothermkn
James Duane recently updated his advice, incorrectly restated in the article
and in many places in this thread, in a book entitled _You Have the Right to
Remain Innocent_. There is a long and short of it, but I'd rather see you buy
the book, so I'll just mention a few things. First, "I'd like to see a
lawyer," is not nearly succinct nor strong enough, as per recent case law and
Supreme Court rulings. Second, the Supreme Court has ruled that invoking the
5th Amendment can be admitted as evidence of guilt, especially if you say it
wrong, as is simply remaining silent. Finally, the people in here saying to,
for example, just assent to a search in order to be on their ways are
hopelessly naive about the frequency of evidence planting, the potential to be
misheard, misremembered, or deliberately misquoted by cops looking to get a
tidy resolution to whatever messy situation confronts them. Not all of them,
but enough of them and often enough that I cringe at most of the advice in
this thread, much of which you (Yes, you!) personally think is great.

Buy the book. It's cheap, and an engaging quick read. Good luck to you all!

------
slumdev
We live in a police state.

If you're not an attorney (or as well versed in law as the attorney in the
video), your best bet is usually to be friendly and comply. You comply because
they're allowed to lie to you, they're allowed to search you with very little
reason, and they're allowed to arrest you using circumstances and behaviors
that they knowingly and purposefully antagonize out of you.

And this is how freedom dies.

~~~
Johnny555
Given what you just said, why would you comply? Seems better to heed the
Miranda warning "Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court
of law" and just say "I'd like to talk to an attorney first". Whether you did
what you're suspected of or not, given how the deck is stacked against you,
compliance seems like the wrong choice and you may very well end up making
things worse for yourself.

The cop is already pretty sure you did it (or he wouldn't have brought you
in), so seems like there's little you can say that will change his mind.

~~~
slumdev
What you're suggesting is what I mean by compliance.

You don't have to talk to them. It's probably the one thing you shouldn't do.
You should respectfully refuse to answer questions, even before the point that
they arrest you and read you the Miranda warning.

But you should allow a search of your vehicle. If you don't, they're just
going to call a canine unit and provoke the dog to signal, regardless of
whether there's anything in your car.

You should identify yourself if requested, provide proof of ID if requested,
get out of the vehicle if requested, etc. Don't make any sudden movements or
reach into your pockets. And smile.

This is where we live.

------
MattyRad
"Don't Talk to the Police", the video by James Duane linked in the article, is
essential viewing. It's so succinct and cogent, I end up rewatching it usually
on a yearly basis because I have it saved locally.

------
VitoVan
I really appreciate something more like this, with more countries included
other than USA, like: India / China / Russia

~~~
paranoidrobot
In many countries, the answers get really complicated, really quickly, and can
vary based on location and other factors.

For instance in NSW Australia, you may be cautioned by police that “You have
the right to remain silent. Anything you do say will be taken down and may be
used in evidence against you. It may harm your defence if you fail to mention
something now which you later rely on in court.” [1][2]

The impact of this is incredibly complicated, and it'll take a lawyer to fully
explain it. Which, if you don't have one on hand when you're questioned - can
be a major issue.

[1] [http://theconversation.com/when-you-say-nothing-at-all-
nsw-a...](http://theconversation.com/when-you-say-nothing-at-all-nsw-and-the-
right-to-silence-12962) [2] [https://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-
news/oppn-slammed-...](https://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/oppn-
slammed-over-nsw-right-to-silence-law/news-
story/27dd05e7b8c5b79661e0d3fefc240cd9)

~~~
AlexCoventry
_The Interview_ is a great movie about this, with Russell Crowe and Hugo
Weaving.

~~~
paranoidrobot
I'm not sure I'm following this comment.

The only movie I can find with both of those actors in it is Proof[1] from
1991, and it doesn't seem to be about anything to do with law enforcement/not
speaking to police/right to silence.

[1]
[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102721/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102721/)

~~~
AlexCoventry
Ah, I was confused. It was Hugo Weaving and Tony Martin.

[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120714/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120714/)

------
tjpnz
So it's true that you're liable in the US to having your brains blown out if
you try to reach for anything?

~~~
throwaway55554
Knowing that cops carry, would you really want to risk it?

~~~
jlgaddis
Not only do they carry guns, they are trained to automatically assume that
everyone they encounter is out to kill _them_!

Imagine how paranoid and afraid that'd make you after a while!

Given that, it's not really surprising we have police officers killing someone
who "pulled a gun" \-- except that then they discover it was just a candy bar.

I've got a few friends who are police officers and I wouldn't want to do their
jobs. Of course, my LEO friends are all older, smarter, and, due to experience
I suppose, more "laid back".

Nowadays the first thing drilled into a new police officer's head is that
"everyone wants to kill you".

------
thatiscool
something is wrong with the system if you need to be so paranoid with the
policeman. it seems people are living under fear and police force in the U.S.
can easily abuse their power and walk free.

Does anyone still remember the tragedy of Debian founder Ian Murdock suicided
in San Francisco?

in EU or Asia, policeforce seems more approachable.

~~~
Polylactic_acid
The police in Australia are far from perfect but they seem like saints
compared to American police. I have interacted with them a few times and it
has always been very reasonable.

~~~
P_I_Staker
They're strip searching children, so I don't know that I'd hold them up as a
shining example of excellent policing.

~~~
Polylactic_acid
Yes but at least they aren't shooting children. I know its a low bar to set
but thats what people are discussing in this thread.

------
throwaway55554
#1 - After you pull over, place your car in park, and turn it off, put your
hands (both!) on the steering wheel and do not move them until the officer
asks for your license.

------
nothrabannosir
According to lawyers I’ve spoken to in the U.K., your refusal to talk to the
police is admissible as ... it’s somehow admissible in court. The prosecutor
is allowed to tell a jury that it’s suspect you didn’t want to talk to the
cops without a lawyer. Or something.

Can someone with know how elaborate on what exactly this means, in practical
terms? What should someone do in the U.K.? Still remain silent?

~~~
mantap
Your best bet is to remain silent unless your solicitor tells you overwise. If
you are arrested in the UK you have a right to legal advice from the "duty
solicitor".

Your refusal to speak to police can't be the only evidence against you.
Silence is not a confession. It merely means that when you're in court the
prosecution may make something of the fact that you didn't say anything to the
police. They may claim that your testimony is less credible than it would have
been. But it's up to the jury whether or not they agree with that. It is
_much_ more important what you say in court.

On the other hand, if you _do_ speak to the police that may well be used
against you as well, indeed it may be the main evidence if you unintentionally
admit to a crime that you didn't know you committed, or you may provide
crucial evidence for one aspect of a crime (such as intention) that would
otherwise be difficult for them to prove.

If you do say something to police, a transcript will be made and it probably
will be available to the jury. They will compare what you said to the police
to what you said in court. Your court date may be a long time from your police
interview. So you'd better be sure you can reproduce your answers months into
the future.

------
lancefisher
Don’t let them in without a warrant, but perhaps don’t even open the door. A
friend of mine had a noise complaint called in on him. They just didn’t open
the door when the cop showed up. He eventually went away. Not sure how often
it works, but I found it hilarious.

------
logotype
These tips does not work in Hong Kong. Police can do whatever they want
without any accountability. One officer even drove into a crowd of people, was
put on paid leave and back at work a month after. Horrible!

------
emptybits
Great advice. Important conversation.

Stating the obvious, I hope, but advice should vary by jurisdiction so here's
the Canadian flavour of asserting rights around arrest, talking, search, etc.:

[https://bccla.org/our_work/the-arrest-handbook-a-guide-to-
yo...](https://bccla.org/our_work/the-arrest-handbook-a-guide-to-your-rights/)

Wherever you live, please consider supporting your national or local Civil
Liberties Association if you have time or money and want to keep the future as
free as possible.

------
pmiller2
TL;DR:

* Act like a normal, sensible person. Don't try to provoke them, and don't give them any reason to escalate the encounter.

* Don't allow police in your home without a warrant.

* Affirmatively deny consent for searches. This includes your home, car, and personal belongings.

* Assert your right to remain silent.

Unless you're reporting a crime where you're the victim (and, sometimes, even
then), you should only talk to police with a lawyer representing you present.

~~~
d1zzy
How much of that is it reasonable to do as an immigrant?

Aren't police allowed too search all sorts of things with easy excuse? My
refusal is a form of escalation especially since they can arrest me on
whatever, then let me go, and that alone could jeopardize my immigration
status (all those visa questionnaires starting with "have you ever been
arrested").

~~~
catalogia
If you consent to the search, what's to say they don't hose you anyway?

~~~
newguy1234
nothing

------
vijaybritto
The title should add [IN USA]. Also this article should contain two sections
for the whites and the non whites

------
dsfyu404ed
This article is a great damage control policy. You should be able to avoid
getting screwed by following its advice.

That said, this is a complex topic and an article of that length can only
cover so much. There's a lot of nuance in these kinds of things (human
interaction is complex) and by behaving as the situation demands an not coming
off as one of those sovereign citizen types you can turn a lot of $50
"contempt of cop while having a tail light out" tickets into warnings without
giving up your rights.

------
luxuryballs
Agree with most if this but not seeing any logic in telling an officer that
you’ve got weapons.

~~~
Double_a_92
Imagine you have your papers and a gun in the glovebox of your car... Opening
and reaching into it maybe doens't look very safe.

~~~
luxuryballs
This is a great additional tip, I keep my papers in a compartment on the
center console rather than in the locked glovebox with the 1911 for exactly
this reason.

------
fg6hr
My observation from past 10 years is that 10 years ago 1/2 cops were nice and
1/2 cops were harsh, but professional. These days 1/2 cops are nice and 1/2
cops seem to actively create troubles out of thin air. Each interaction with a
mean cop was saved by what I'd call status illegibility: the cop wasn't sure
whether I'm a rich connected trouble-maker or just look like one. Short
conversations with some cops reminded me typical conversations with
professional corporate sociopaths when you aren't sure whether the person
you're talking to is a skillful sociopath who tries to get something on you or
just a chatty dude. Long time ago, when I was young and naive, I got pulled
over by a seemingly friendly cop who felt very chatty. I gave him way too much
information because I didn't understand what was going on and gave a wrong
answer to a request to search my car. What probably saved me that time was his
next question about where I work. After my answer he promptly returned my DL
and let me go.

------
xivzgrev
Wow. This article (or other equivalent) needs to be taught in every high
school.

------
muddyb0y
The real question here is: why is an attorney driving an Uber?

------
turkthrower123
Pray. Being stopped by American police can be a death sentence for anyone. I
knew a programmer who was murdered by the same police he called to help him.
His crime? Schizophrenia.

[https://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2005/09/09/38582.php](https://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2005/09/09/38582.php)

~~~
LyndsySimon
Interesting. I know devs with similar stories - though obviously with slightly
different outcomes.

