
Why tiny Stockholm has the most stunning startup ecosystem since Tel Aviv - siavash
http://pandodaily.com/2012/11/20/why-tiny-stockholm-has-the-most-stunning-startup-ecosystem-since-tel-aviv/?pages=all
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flexie
I think the article forgets one reason why Scandinavian countries do well in
IT start ups: Allmost all Scandinavians speak English quite well. Given that
most new technology and research is communicated in English, a decent level of
English is necessary to adapt new technology. This gives Scandinavians and
Dutch entrepreneurs an edge compared to most other European entrepreneurs,
except obviously the Irish and British entrepreneurs.

~~~
zalew
> This gives Scandinavians and Dutch entrepreneurs an edge compared to most
> other European entrepreneurs

how? the world's ranking of english proficiency is dominated by Europeans
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_English_Proficiency_Index#2...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_English_Proficiency_Index#2012_Rankings)
I am pretty sure among the IT branch the scores are much higher although you
don't need perfect language skills to understand technical concepts.

~~~
lambda
You do notice that all of the countries listed as "Very High Proficiency" are
Scandinavian or Dutch, just like he said, right? And many of the continental
European countries, like France, Italy, and Spain are listed at only "Moderate
Proficiency."

While you don't need perfect language skills to understand technical concepts,
not being at full proficiency can be a barrier. I know that when I help people
out on StackOverflow, one of the main barriers to answering some people's
questions is that they can't formulate it in English in a way that I can
understand. Proficiency is a two-way thing; besides being able to read
English, you need to be able to speak and write it well to fully interact with
the technical community.

~~~
zalew
> You do notice that all of the countries listed as "Very High Proficiency"
> are Scandinavian or Dutch, just like he said, right?

You do notice they aren't recently startup-famous in any way, right?

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beagle3
Every single experience I've had with a swede, (technical, entrepreneur, or
otherwise) has been extremely pleasant. It might be selection bias - most of
those that I've met were outside sweden at the time I met them - but from
spending some time in Lund, I got the impression that it's a national trait,
to the point that I have considered moving to sweden for a few years if the
stars align properly.

Perhaps we can have a sweded version of NYC in the US? :) That would be ideal.

~~~
lrem
Beware of possible problems when relocating. I know an experienced graphic
designer who moved there, due to personal reasons, to see her career go to a
sudden stop. At some point she forced a HR person from one of the companies
ignoring her CV to answer why. It went more or less like that:

\- Oh, that's simple, you completely lack experience.

\- Have you missed the entries in my CV?

\- No, but none of them was in Sweden.

On the other hand, this may be completely irrelevant in startups.

~~~
purplelobster
Where did she gain her experience? I don't want to assume anything, but I
think experience from some countries are looked more favorable upon, but I
could be wrong.

~~~
lrem
That's probable. She worked in Poland, usually for big international
companies. The last one was actually a Swedish one, but apparently being
located in an office on the other side of a pond invalidates your experience.

That, or this was just an excuse to hide a real reason (could be pretty well
crisis-induced).

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mbesto
I love Stockholm. It's an awesome city and despite the high taxes, it's very
progressive in terms of trends. In other words, there are many early adopters
there, which is something that is very unique to SV.

Also, much of Swedish design is built on simplicity. You can see this
everywhere from web design, to store design and of course furniture. The only
downside, as others have pointed out, is that its extremely expensive.

EDIT: Discrepancies around definitions of conservatism.

~~~
beagle3
How high are the taxes in Sweden?

Highest bracket in Tel-Aviv is, as far as I know, ~60% (50% income tax + 10%
health/social taxes) + 17% VAT (=~sales tax equivalent, essentially applicable
to individuals but less so to companies)

Highest bracket in NYC as of 2013 (unless the "fiscal cliff" is averted) is a
few % short of 60% (40% federal, 13% state, 2% fica, 2% social security, and a
few more). If the fiscal cliff is averted, it's still 53% or so. + 8.5% sales
tax. (sales tax applies everywhere)

Also, what do you get for these taxes?

In Israel, you get comprehensive universal healthcare (services paid by tax,
drugs and medicines subsidized by tax), comprehensive public education - no
tuition for high school, $3000/year tuition for public universities,
$6000/year for private universities or colleges. (All Israeli universities are
world class; most colleges aren't). You also get reasonable social security
payments when you retire, and reasonable unemployment for 6 months or so after
getting laid off (and unreasonable barely-but-enough-to-not-starve
unemployment later). And also mandatory conscription when you reach 18, and
the occasional bus bombing.

In NYC, you'll get free public schools (some of which are excellent and some
of which are glorified babysitting institutions), and other than that ...
mostly nothing. You're supposed to get social security payments when you
retire, but the books don't balance (unlike the Israeli pension fund books,
which do). You also get the occasional hurricane (but only one in the last 100
years had really been devastating - two in the last 106 years)

~~~
winter_blue
The U.A.E. is a country where you have _zero_ , yep zero taxes. Dubai is a
pretty great city to live in, and it's not that expensive. You could live well
easily on $1000/month. The only downside to U.A.E. is that the tech scene is
barely starting up. So you'd have to find talent abroad. On the bright side,
it's fairly easy to get visas both to bring people over and to start your own
company.

~~~
padraigm
I'd consider the flagrant human rights abuses in the U.A.E. to be a pretty
substantial downside. The U.A.E. routinely imprisons rape victims for
extramarital sex, imprisons or castrates people convicted of homosexuality.
There is little or no protection for freedom of speech or of the press, etc.
The U.A.E. would be a terrible country to live and work in, and a low cost of
living does nothing to change that.

------
symmetricsaurus
1.4 million in the urban area and 2.1 million in the metropolitan area is not
exactly tiny.

Tel Aviv is for example smaller, but I guess that the comparison is to the bay
area/silicon valley or something like that.

~~~
Peer
Tel Aviv is probarbly larger than Stockholm though.

The Swedish definition of "metropolitan" area is skewed, it consists of
several cities and according to wikipedia its 6,519 km2 that is compared to
Tel Avivs metropolian area of 1,516 km2. Still Tel Avivs has a metropolitan
population of 3.4 million people compared to Stockholm's 2.1 million.

~~~
dbaupp
Just for others' reference, the metropolitan area of Stockholm[0] is the whole
of the Stockholm county.

Just looking at the map, a slightly better/more conventional measure of
Stockholm might be Stockholm municipality[1] + Huddinge, Sundbyberg and Solna,
which gives an area of 350 km2 and a population of about 1.1 million.

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_Sweden#Metropolitan_Stockholm)
[1]: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_Municipality>

~~~
subsystem
I would really only call the city centre [0] an "urban area" i.e. somewhere
you could find a decent bar etc.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_City_Centre>

------
henrik_w
An opposing view, where Stockholm is not in the top 20 startup cities:
[http://techcrunch.com/2012/11/20/startup-genome-ranks-the-
wo...](http://techcrunch.com/2012/11/20/startup-genome-ranks-the-worlds-top-
startup-ecosystems-silicon-valley-tel-aviv-l-a-lead-the-way/)

------
Peer
The article missed Tobii, which this year got a $20 million investment by
Intel, and has raised over $50 million in total. They're making a very cool
eye tracking product that you (among other use cases) can use to control a
computer with your eyes.

~~~
unwind
But Tobii has been around since 2001, and has 340 employees (both facts from
Wikipedia). That's hardly a "startup".

~~~
mongol
Skype is from 2003. The article mentions Skype, Tobii is about as old.

------
_of
Some downsides with Stockholm: (1) It is difficult to make friends in
Stockholm, because Swedish people are generally very reserved; (2) It is very
dark and cold most of the year; and (3) Summer is short.

~~~
progn
It sounds just like Seattle, then: perfection.

~~~
_delirium
Like Seattle but colder and darker. Example: Seattle in mid-December is
typically mid-40s F with sunset around 4:15pm, while Stockholm is typically
mid-30s F with sunset around 2:45pm. Also, more snow, but actually slightly
less cloudy.

~~~
purplelobster
I've lived in both, and I think I prefer Seattle a little bit. It's pretty
close though, because while Stockholm is colder and have shorter days for a
longer period of time, Seattle is gray for literally 200 days straight.
Stockholm can be pretty gray too, but you get nice winter days pretty often,
with white snow and sunny days. Summers in Seattle are preferable though, very
dry compared to Stockholm.

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filip01
FWIW: IAmA founder of a startup in Stockholm (sharing offices with Wrapp),
AMA.

~~~
toyg
Is it still as freaking expensive as when I was there last time, about 10
years ago ?

~~~
filip01
Yep: [http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/01/23/travel-like-
the-1-top-10...](http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/01/23/travel-like-
the-1-top-10-expensive-destinations/slide/5-stockholm-sweden/)

------
henrik_w
Yay Stockholm!

Another Stockholm start-up that looks interesting is Gavagai
<http://gavagai.se/>

~~~
progn
Are Swedish startups (or EU startups in general) interested in talented
American programmers?

~~~
mindjiver
Yes, I would say so. The software developer pool in Stockholm is running
really dry. So the market is really hot and it has been this way for a few
years now.

Here at $MEGA_CORP we did some recruiting recently and we hired from all over
Europe. One good(?) thing is that the political situation in Russia is quite
crappy at the moment, so there it is possible to recruit top talent from
there.

I guess hiring from the across the pond is slightly harder. But if you pass
the normal skype/phone/online interviews and you are good it shouldn't be a
huge problem to fly you over for an onsite interview.

------
riams
I've interviewed with Jacob at iZettle. Great guy and team!

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robk
Campanja is another rapidly growing startup in Stockholm.

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paulhauggis
Startups probably do well.

However, because of taxes, government regulations, and the fact that it's very
difficult to fire someone, it's tough to grow past the startup phase.

This is probably why it's not looked at as a great place to start a business
by most.

