
Japan doesn't test staff for covid19 cause they cannot work if infected - franciscop
https://twitter.com/hikosaemon/status/1231135535088848896
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Nokinside
Japanese disaster and emergency preparation is said to be the best on the
world. On the ground level it probably is. They train, they have the plan,
they have the gear, they are prepared.

When the disaster or emergency actually happens the system tends to collapse
like a deck of cards. Everybody in charge is just trying to look busy instead
of solving problems.

Fukushima disaster was a good example of this. Government officials didn't
send messages or deleted information that was supposed to go to evacuation and
health organizations because "information about radiation levels is
unrealistic". Use of the word meltdown was forbidden so emergency response
teams did not know there was a meltdown.

~~~
hrktb
> On the ground level it probably is

I’d like to put emphasis on this.

There is a huge disconnect between level headed, well prepared and truely
heroic first responders, local communities, the general population reacting to
a disaster; and the politicians and higher ups.

Everybody knows what’s the right thing to do, and will do it when nothing
stops them. But then you get the usual band of corrupt officials, incompetent
C* level executives, between a rock and a hard place yes-man middle
management.

This disconnect makes any situation where the hierarchy (public or not) is
getting bribed or needs to flee responsibility a catastrophic failure.

Earthquakes are the fault of no one, and response is usually stellar. Nuclear
meltdowns involve mismanagement, regulatory failings and design flaws so it
becomes a shitshow in merely hours.

Here in particular there is also the shadow of cancelling the upcomming Tokyo
Olympic hovering about everyone’s head, making the govs choices even more
opposed to what the population wants or needs.

~~~
_bxg1
It feels like this phenomenon has spread to all corners of the developed world
- both public and private - in recent decades. Just look at Boeing. Is there a
real trend of institutional decay, or is it just that the internet gives us a
clearer view of how much mess there is?

~~~
hatenberg
I would think that we just have come in full world full circle again after the
last reset - WW2 - which saw an aftermath of power structures being rebuilt
and people generally being in positions because of skill and how they
distinguishes themselves.

Now we are at a place again where power structures are mostly crony/inherited
(just look at Trump) based on affiliation, loyalty and destiny and rarely due
to skill or achievement.

We all know how this eventually ends again too

~~~
bamboozled
I think about this too, it seems hard to find a competent leader.

Look at the Australian PM during the bushfires, he was in Hawaii on holiday
for a good part of it.

Shinzo Abe, just seems at a complete loss on how to deal with this issue, the
cruise ship thing was a complete debacle.

Then most world leaders who matter seem to have trouble even comprehending
climate change, ocean acidification etc.

Yes it’s anecdotal, but it seems your right. We’re lacking real leaders and
left with talking heads at the helm.

~~~
ASalazarMX
It's lamentable that these incompetent talking heads have a strong motivation
to rule, since they see it as a validation of their worth. This generation of
politicians has too many of them.

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iforgotpassword
Ok, so at first China ignored and downplayed the situation. The numbers they
report are too low. But they went all in with their lockdown and mask craze,
temperature checks, you name it.

Despite all this, the rest of the world has their thumbs up their butts doing
exactly what China did in the beginning. Downplay everything, pretend we might
just be immune to this for some reason, or release statements that we're
perfectly prepared when shit would hit the fan. My colleague returned from
Beijing last week.

On the plane everyone was wearing masks, not so at the airport here. And
everyone just took it off pretty much right after getting off the plane. I
don't get it.

~~~
_-___________-_
Maybe they subliminally took on board the advice from CDC, WHO and others that
masks don't really do anything to prevent you from picking up the virus from
others.

People are also doing weirdly illogical things in China, like wearing the mask
outside and then taking it off when they get into a restaurant where people
are congregating (with a new rule: max of two to a table!) The masks are
likely not effective, but if people feel better wearing them, so be it.

~~~
moreira
One thing that I learned from a recent trip to Hong Kong is that the logic
behind the masks isn't to prevent you from picking up the virus (which of
course is not effective, as you just said) but to stop you from infecting
others with your coughs and sneezes.

It's just a slightly more hygienic way of dealing with it than covering your
mouth with your hand, it's not some amazing cure.

~~~
mrob
Masks also stop you from touching your nose or mouth, which many people do
without noticing they're doing it.

~~~
_-___________-_
I'm usually around Asia, so I've seen plenty of people wearing masks lately.
As far as I can see they're very ineffective at stopping you from touching
your face; since they are quite uncomfortable people seem to be constantly
adjusting their position. This especially applies to things like the N95 masks
which are extremely uncomfortable to wear for more than a short time.

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coconut_crab
My anecdote: 2 weeks ago I have a conversation with the a C level in Japan
about policy for work from home in case of Covid-19 outbreak. At that time
there were less than 10 cases in my country (Vietnam) but I want to have a
plan for the worst case: the whole company gets quarantined. The answers from
him were disappointing, he didn't think much of that, that there is no work
from home policy in our group and I should ask somebody else, it's not his
problem. The answers from the local director was worse, he made it sounds like
a crime to work from home ('checking email at home sneakily' =
kinshi/forbidden). In short they didn't care about it, and had no plan for it
either.

Now two weeks later and Vietnam has basically gotten the outbreak under
control with only 16 cases despite being right next to China while Japan has
more than 100 cases. And out group is scrambling to define a policy for
working from home while stopping all the recruitment meetings. And I have told
them all about that 2 weeks ago...

~~~
jobigoud
> Vietnam has basically gotten the outbreak under control with only 16 cases
> despite being right next to China

Is it like almost everywhere else where they refuse to test people unless they
have severe symptoms and can be traced back to China?

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arkades
Sounds like the US.

I've had residents crawl into work in the _middle_ of a enteritis, that I've
had to force into a bed in the on-call room, shoved an IV in their arm, and
told them not to fucking move until I'd gotten two boluses into them. They
were entirely unable to work, and the question of infectiousness was well
beside the point. We'd have no one to cover if they actually called in sick.

If someone comes in with the flu, we don't test at all. They get handed a mask
and we go on with our work day.

~~~
hatenberg
They cannot afford to not work is the answer for a sizeable portion of the
population. Another well for profit healthcare feature

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_-___________-_
I can only see this making sense if you adopt a defeatist attitude to your
population getting infected, like you might with a garden-variety influenza
outbreak.

Almost all healthy, working-age people won't die from corona. Many of them
won't even really notice that they have something other than a cold. Some
won't have any symptoms at all.

And you need workers (especially healthcare workers to care for the less
fortunate people who do need intensive care).

Therefore, if you accept that people will get infected (which is, shamefully,
also accepting that more old/immunocompromised/unlucky people will die) then
it does make sense to avoid quarantining people that you really need.

The problem is that this isn't a garden-variety influenza outbreak; first of
all it's a new virus, so you have the burden of this _in addition_ to
influenza, and second of all many things about it are still relatively
unknown.

~~~
PakG1
_Almost all healthy, working-age people won 't die from corona. Many of them
won't even really notice that they have something other than a cold. Some
won't have any symptoms at all._

Perhaps most, and yet the whistleblower doctor in China who died was 34, and
just recently a doctor who postponed his wedding scheduled for the Spring
Festival in order to go help in Wuhan was 29. So are they very rare outliers
or do we just not have a large enough sample size yet?

[https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-whistleblower-
do...](https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-whistleblower-doctor-li-
wenliang-in-critical-condition-2020-2)

[https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-kills-chinese-
do...](https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-kills-chinese-doctor-peng-
yinhua-delayed-wedding-fight-disease-2020-2)

~~~
lidHanteyk
Doctors have more exposure to stressors of the immune system. They get sick
and injured surprisingly often; while they know how to avoid exposure and
injury and how to treat themselves, they cannot help but work in places like
hospitals where they are constantly exposed.

Additionally, air quality is worse in that area compared to where you likely
live.

Really, treat this like a really bad flu season. It will be bad, but it is
much worse for some demographics than others.

~~~
nate_meurer
It's also quite possible that these doctors were smokers. Chinese doctors
smoke at least as much as the general chinese population, which already
suffers the highest per capita smoking rates in the world.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3519549/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3519549/)
\- Tobacco smoking among doctors in mainland China: a study from Shandong
province and review of the literature

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agumonkey
So some countries are fighting with prayers, now Japan goes in absurd denial.

I guess this crisis will demonstrate lots of countries failure so they can
learn (at a cost)

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PedroBatista
Some passengers in the quarantined cruise ship said Japanese authorities
forbidden the use of masks. Masks might be far from 100% effective but this
looks like Fukushima all over again.

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sseth
In some ways the real story is that the MoH cannot take a decision to let some
staff keep working if they are found to bee infected - presumably because they
are not easily replacable. It is easier for them to bypass the rule by not
testing (or suppressing the results of tests) then having the autonomy to take
such a decision on a case-by-case basis.

Seen in this light, this is depressingly familiar and universal. Seemingly
strange actions basically necessiated because of bureaucratic inflexibility.

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woodandsteel
There's a Japanese music group I follow on the internet. Here's what they
looked like when they met with audience members after a concert last week

[https://twitter.com/st_luna_azul/status/1229236089170186240](https://twitter.com/st_luna_azul/status/1229236089170186240)

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_bxg1
Specifically in the case of the ministry of health this almost makes sense. If
that becomes understaffed because people are sick, the rest of the country is
in trouble.

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anticensor
Because what they work on is the world's most important job /s

~~~
raverbashing
Sometimes I really wonder how cultural traits like these evolve.

Ok I know about the Samurais and feudal Japan, at the same time, European
feudalism was different.

Though to be honest it's changing and now they're thinking that maybe 12h days
might be too much

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sunstone
Japanese logic has its moments.

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code51
begs for it: [https://imgflip.com/i/3q1evo](https://imgflip.com/i/3q1evo)

