
Amazon’s surveillance-powered no-checkout convenience store - beefman
https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/21/inside-amazons-surveillance-powered-no-checkout-convenience-store/
======
joosters
So the system requires each subsection of a shelf to have a working weight
sensor? Is that really do-able in a shop where the general public will be
repeatedly knocking, bashing and generally ill-treating it? Most regular
stores that I've been in will have plenty of wonky looking shelves, broken
shelf tickets and so on...

If a sensor fails, presumably Amazon is going to lose track of, or at least,
lose accuracy in tracking of, some product. The cameras aren't a foolproof
backup for this (since, if they were, why bother with the complexity and
expense of weight sensors at all?) To me it suggests that these stores are
going to need a hell of a lot of maintenance.

~~~
wastedhours
I'd agree, but we already have the imperfect ones you get from self-service
checkouts, and they work a decent enough amount of the time they might
suffice?

It's the more human element that'll be interesting to me - you see people pick
something up and put it back in the wrong place all of the time. Just think
about the poor staffer who'll get the "item in the wrong place" ping through
their headset every 30 seconds. Am assuming Amazon will use skeleton crews to
run these, so they'll be rushed just picking up the pieces (quite literally).

~~~
joosters
The self-service checkouts is a good point - but in my experience at least 10%
of those are regularly out of service, and they are large systems that are
meant to be robust. I can't see how that will scale up to thousands of product
lines. As you say though, the staff will probably be far more busy replacing
items...

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bambax
> _It’s a bit overkill, I think, to replace a checker or self-checkout stand
> with a hundred cameras that unblinkingly record every tiny movement. What’s
> to gain? 20 or 30 seconds of your time back?_

My thoughts exactly. What's the point of all this? What is the problem that
they're trying to solve?

Also, the monitoring done in that kind of store is very different from
security monitoring systems we have today, because it knows who it's watching.
The fact that it doesn't use facial recognition is pointless since it has your
identity and account # the minute you enter the store.

It can study _you_ : not just what you buy, but how you think.

I'm also curious if it would work with how I shop. Usually in small
supermarkets I put my bag or trolley in one corner of the shop and bring
products back to it. It's maybe a little inefficient but it lets me walk
unencumbered. Would it know my bag is mine?

~~~
thinkloop
I don't understand this "20 or 30 seconds" comment, it takes more like 20
_minutes_ to wait in line and scan all items, then pay. I use Uber mainly
because I can walk out the cab without paying, and that's a real twenty
seconds.

~~~
seszett
20 minutes?

In France we have these manual scanners that you can carry around the
supermarket and scan items as you put them in your bag. Then when you exit the
store, semi-randomly an employee will rescan part of your items, or all of
them (it happens more often if you often forget to scan things - which can
happen, but it can also be wilful shoplifting of course). Then you pay and the
gate opens.

Most of the time it does take about 30 seconds, also you don't have to get
your stuff out of your bag and you know all along how much you're going to
pay.

I think I haven't used the regular lines for years.

~~~
jaclaz
>Most of the time it does take about 30 seconds, also you don't have to get
your stuff out of your bag and you know all along how much you're going to
pay.

And this latter has an interesting side effect.

At the time these readers were introduced the "message" to the public was
"your convenience, faster checkout" (while actually the reason was "let us
reduce the number of cashiers").

What was soon found out was that the "poor man's average shopping" was raised
by some 10-15%.

Imagine you go to the supermarket and you only have in your pocket a single 50
Euro (or 50 dollars) note.

You put things in your basket making a mental calculation of the total amount
in order to avoid, when you checkout, if the total is more than 50, to have to
leave some item (and also to avoid the "social shame").

With the new method, where you can see your progressive total, that kind of
shopping has raised from 42-45 to 48-50, i.e. people use "all they have"
without risking to "look bad".

~~~
adamio
who is this hypothetical poor man who's so bad at managing money that an exact
total of the amount he's spending will cause him to overspend ?

~~~
jaclaz
>who is this hypothetical poor man who's so bad at managing money that an
exact total of the amount he's spending will cause him to overspend ?

It is not hypothetical, it is a peculiar - but not so uncommon - man/woman
with a limited amount of money in his/her hands (and of course no credit card
or similar), the single 50 in the example (but it could be 20 or 100)
banknote.

He/she is willing to spend the whole amount of money, but before didn't
because he/she was afraid to be seen as having only that given limited amount
of money and by making approximate mental calculation tended to undereestimate
(or if you prefer preferred to be on the safe side).

With the barcode reader he/she can spend the whole amount of money he/she has
available with no risk of appearing (to the cashier, to the people in queue)
as "poor".

The poiont is not that with the new system this kind of "poor" people
overspend, rather it is that before it underspent.

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volgo
It's strange that news organizations take such a cynical tone with new
technology. Really? "Surveillance-powered convenience store"? Are we suppose
to call TechCrunch a "surveillance-powered ad powerhouse"? Or Tesla
"surveillance-powered vehicles"?

All stores are already equipped with security cameras to prevent theft. When
you're in someone's shop, you don't have an expectation of privacy. Amazon
merely took it one more step and made it easier for you to checkout.

~~~
ShabbosGoy
This comment is something an apologist of surveillance would write.

Yes, it is a surveillance powered store. That’s what it literally is. Just
like Alexa and Google Home are literal always-on listening devices in your
home.

Edit: A bit more context in case someone misunderstands. New technology can
improve one’s life exponentially. But it is simulataneously capable of
exacting great harm.

~~~
volgo
Everything in modern society is "surveillanced". The highways you drive on
(highway cameras), the news sites you read (ad tracking), the dollars you make
(IRS). Someone somewhere knows these things. Specifically pointing out
something is "surveillance-powered" without context is agenda-driven.

~~~
ShabbosGoy
I agree, but we have to be careful not to give a pass to our industry to do
whatever they want.

And it isn’t necessarily agenda-driven by TechCrunch. As you said, they are
ads/analytics based. So it follows that they will produce content that gets
maximum eyeballs.

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userbinator
One thing I didn't seem to find any mention of in the article is what happens
if you take an item off the shelf to inspect it and then put it back --- or
misplace it somewhere else, as often happens with other stores? Hopefully the
system can determine that you've left product behind, since otherwise it would
negate one of the huge advantages of having a physical store: you can inspect
and select before buying.

~~~
ChadMoran
[https://www.amazon.com/go](https://www.amazon.com/go) there's a helpful video

EDIT: To explicitly state it. It handles that. It has a "vritual cart" as you
pick things up and put them back.

Disclosure: I work for Amazon but have no affiliation with the Amazon Go
program.

~~~
dx034
What if it's so crowded that no camera sees the object as you put it back? Is
there a limit on the max number of shoppers?

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dpweb
I go to a 7 11 down the street. There is a guy in there that works the
checkout. He always greets everyone with the biggest smile youve ever seen and
I find myself feeling a little better as I leave.

When I get outside I think to myself, this guy probably does that to every
single customer for at least 8 hrs a day. For how much reward? Then I think a
little about automation, eat my donut, and head to work.

~~~
prawn
At my usual supermarket, there's a checkout operator who is so awkward people
actively avoid him and prefer queues over his emptier lane.

With a largely automated shop, we lose out on human contact, but then the same
applies with online shopping too. On the other hand, I think we'll eventually
recall those crazy days where there were checkout operators tallying products.
Already when I visit the States, I find it bizarre when there is second person
bagging products! The first time I went to China (1991), the department store
checkout operators used an abacus to sum sales. Even when they had a cash
register, they used it purely for the cash drawer and still favoured the
abacus!

Eventually, I think the majority of people will actually not actively make
purchasing decisions in entire categories. Choosing and shopping yourself will
be a premium thing. In the future, I can see a large swathe of people taking
cheaper subscriptions whereby they are delivered products decided by
algorithm.

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MarkMc
I don't see what is so cynical about 'surveillance-powered convenience
store's. Having surveillance in a store doesn't have any negative connotation
for me, and 'surveillance-powered' is a good way to describe what makes this
store unique

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imron
Once they've ironed out the tech, they will certainly roll this out to
Wholefoods. Your margin is Amazon's opportunity.

~~~
jobigoud
Wholefoods has a lot of produce and grains sold by weight. I wonder how that
will work.

~~~
imron
The system knows the weight of the grain container before the customer takes
any grain.

It also knows the weight of the container after the customer takes some, so
it's not too hard to figure out how much was taken.

There will be exceptions where this is not the case (e.g. grain accidentally
spills), but it will work 99.9% of the time, and then as the article mentions,
for the other times there will be an attendant to sort out any issues.

------
Asdfbla
If the future of grocery shopping is between grocery delivery that you order
over the Internet (linked to your account and browsing habits) or using such a
surveillance store, the privacy implications are probably not that different
either way. Privacy is already in a bad enough state that stores like that
probably don't make a big difference anymore either. They are just more creepy
because commerce exclusive to the 'real world' seemed like the last safe haven
for privacy (provided you were able to pay in cash and didn't use loyalty
cards or other offline cookies).

I also can't help but think that they just put those employees there for PR
reasons. No matter how Amazon tries to spin it, a majority of jobs will be
lost. Maybe that's inevitable, but then we should face it instead of
pretending you can just put them somewhere else in your automated store.

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seanwilson
Will this actually work? How is this going to be reliable with arms, hands,
clothes, other people and other products blocking the view of the cameras?

I wonder why they didn't put cameras in the shopping basket instead. At least
then it would always have a clear view of items going in and out.

~~~
discoursism
Do you think they would have opened it if they didn't have a pretty high
degree of confidence that it was working? It's been in beta for quite some
time.

There are better places to steal from than those with massive numbers of
cameras pointed at you from all directions.

~~~
Flammy
I think the bigger deterrence is to get in the front door they already have
your name, address, and card on file.

That said, several articles have mentioned Amazon intentionally is NOT using
facial recognition as part of the tech.

~~~
discoursism
I'm not referring to facial recognition. I'm saying if you shoplift, they are
going to be able to provide the cops with video evidence, and they will know
who you are.

~~~
dx034
The bigger problem is if they overcharge too many customers. Having to
complain afterwards because it lists items you didn't buy eliminates the
advantages of faster checkouts.

~~~
discoursism
That's very true. And if they are not confident about their predictions then
it might be difficult to push back when people fraudulently claim to not have
purchased something.

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mythrwy
Cameras seem like such a crude expensive approach to doing this. And there has
to be exploitable holes.

Recently was watching a Western movie where a person goes into a shop. The
goods are all behind the counter. The person points out what they want, the
clerk retrieves it.

Big vending machines with phone interface possibly. Maybe a full shelf as
shown in photo behind wire or glass and a robotic arm like the ones seen in
Amazon warehouses. That way people can kick the screen and curse when the
robotic arm fails to deliver the correct good and no clerks are harmed in the
process.

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dingo_bat
> Our roughly 1,800 square feet of retail space is conveniently compact so
> busy customers can get in and out fast.

Isn't this a bit small for a store? The tiny 2 bedroom apartment I live in is
1400sqft.

~~~
jakobegger
In what part of the world is 1400sqft considered tiny? That is 130m^2, which
would be considered a pretty decent size appartement here in Austria. You
don‘t find many appartments as big as that in a city here. (We‘re a family of
4, and we live in a 80m^2 appartement)

~~~
dingo_bat
I'm in Bangalore and live with my wife. Compared to what our parents, we
always complain about how small our living space is. They have lived their
lives in small towns/villages in houses with nice large rooms and huge
backyards, all of which is only a pipe dream for us now in our 21st storey
pigeon-hole.

I always assumed European countries with their lower population densities
would be inclined towards larger living spaces than us. Seems like that may
not be generally true.

~~~
jobigoud
I had to go look up average apartment size in Bangalore to make sure you had
the correct number. 130m² is a pretty large apartment size in Europe.

We live in 70m² and find it decently sized. And I work remotely so I'm in it
all day long. We pay 800€/month, it would be much higher if we were closer to
a city center.

We have a bedroom and a study, even two small bathrooms. It does have a
backyard that is not counted I in the size. Most people I know live in
similarly sized apartments.

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joosters
The entrance turnstiles make the shop look very family-unfriendly. How do you
go shopping with kids? Or just while out with a friend?

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JoeAltmaier
Imagine the exploits! A crowd of high school kids, milling in a tight group,
grabbing bottles of wine and putting back bottles of water from under their
coats, trading items around, taking cheap cans from one rack and swapping them
in for expensive caviar etc on another rack.

It boggles the mind.

~~~
intopieces
Alcohol requires an attendee to check ID before being taken from the shelf.
There are other employees on site to monitor, answer questions and restock.

You seem to have the impression that no checkout == no employees. This is not
the case.

~~~
dx034
But if employees still check for accuracy, is the system really faster than a
normal supermarket? Can imagine it being only slightly faster for a much
higher price. Might work in the beginning when everyone wants to try it but I
doubt it can appeal to a wider range of people.

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justonepost
Folks, all stores have cameras surveying shoppers. I challenge you to find a
store that does not.

~~~
bkor
Loads of stores in Netherlands don't have camera's. It's super easy to find
_loads_ of stores without them.

~~~
justonepost
Well, that's the netherlands. :)

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saas_co_de
In the wild this tech will get ripped to shreds. The exploits will be endless.
And the interesting question is: is it really shoplifting if their system
fails to register the sale? Not really, so it is open season.

~~~
794CD01
>is it really shoplifting if their system fails to register the sale?

Why wouldn't it be shoplifting here if it is at any other store? If the
cashiers and loss prevention officers don't notice you walking out with
merchandise in your pocket, is it somehow worse because their eyes and brains
are made of flesh instead of plastic and metal?

~~~
dannyw
Well, you don’t know what the system registers until you walk out and get an
email receipt a couple of minutes later.

~~~
794CD01
True. That sounds like a fine excuse for the accidental cases. When you are
deliberately making an attempt to deceive the system, that is where it crosses
the line.

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losteverything
Anyone know if prices are on items?

On shelves?

On app screen?

And are the same for each customer?

------
Animats
BingoBox has had automated convenience stores in China for months now.[1][2]
They're about the size of a shipping container. Amazon is coming from behind
here.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vIt0lTcqaw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vIt0lTcqaw)
[2] [https://youtu.be/l7DLmBYk6c8](https://youtu.be/l7DLmBYk6c8)

~~~
wsgreen
Very different tech stack and UX in these products. BingoBox still requires
users to scan their own groceries. It's basically the self-checkout line in
Safeway.

~~~
Animats
They check visually at the door to see if you took something you shouldn't.
It's not airtight, but it's enough to prevent abuse.

------
usermcuserface
Something I've not seen an answer to in any article about this concept: I'm
slightly above average height, so occasionally people somewhat below average
height ask me to reach things down from high shelves in supermarkets.

What happens if I do that in an Amazon Go shop?

~~~
Sylos
More questions somewhat in this same vein: Can you take your family with you?
What happens, if your 5-year-old grabs his favorite sweet and brings it up to
you to ask you whether he can have it? Can you put things back into the
shelves?

