
Wired Documentary on Shenzhen - etiam
http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4721
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FreedomToCreate
I worked extensively in Shenzhen (though it was a breath of fresh air to get
back to the states), and it is a great ecosystem but I do want to address
something not covered in the documentary. Their are a lot of things you need
to be careful about before venturing into the wild west of electronic parts
that is shenzhen. First, knowing some Mandarin or having a native speaker with
you is definitely a requirement. Most big companies and vendors have english
speakers working for them, but thats the exception.

The work mentality there is to get as much done as quickly as possible. Short
cuts are the norm, which is frowned upon in North America, and you have to
watch your suppliers and make sure they don't screw you over (ex. replace your
requested part with a similar one or get you a cheaper part without checking
with you and put the difference back in their own pocket). This even happens
in the prototyping stage.

And as cheap as building stuff is there, living is still comparable to most US
cities when it comes to good housing (ex. Austin, Portland, Denver).

With all that said, things move crazy fast. You put a circuit board order in
on Monday and its on your desk on Wednesday.

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justicezyx
It takes 2 days. I was expecting same day delivery. XD

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tonster
There are many 24hr turn PCB fab houses too. Usually costs an extra 150-200RMB
for that service, which by western standards is still an absolute steal.

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SexyCyborg
Shenzhen native, local Maker here.

All in all the video is pretty accurate. Like most of these videos they focus
on the usual semi-official tourist stops- Huaqiangqei, local accelerators,
etc. You never see the Huawei or TenCent R&D departments, or anyplace that the
actual real day-to-day innovation usually happens because those are strictly
no-cameras and very much off limits to forigners.

If anyone wants a better look around the HCB electronic markets I shot about
an hour of 360º video there last week, it's on YouTube if you search.

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ibn
Could you comment on if, as an American engineer, getting to know Shenzhen and
learning Mandarin would be worth doing as valuable business skills?

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SexyCyborg
You would need really, really good Mandarin in order to manufacture something
without a translator. In conversation I find culture is more of a problem than
language. We can always make it clear you will get the part on Tuesday. What
Westerners can't understand is why that really does not mean that you will get
the part on Tuesday

But everyone who lives here should study enough so they can get around and
take care of themselves.

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iNerdier
What does it mean? I'm curious as to what the subtext of something like that
really is. Will it also mean that local manufacturers there would be more
likely to try and pass off something non-genuine to westerners?

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SexyCyborg
>What does it mean? I'm curious as to what the subtext of something like that
really is.

Means he'd very much like for you to have it on Tuesday:-) He also does not
want to make you unhappy and possibly lose you as a customer by saying it will
probably be Wednesday. After all it could be Tuesday so why not have a try?
It's a little frustrating for non-Chinese.

>Will it also mean that local manufacturers there would be more likely to try
and pass off something non-genuine to westerners?

I think Westerners are more likely to get fake money since we assume they
won't know how to check. Most Chinese think Westerner engineers are more
technically competent so while they might sell fakes I don't _think_ it's a
lot more likely? I can't really say though I don't do sourcing. Also it's
about risk. Rip off another Chinese person he will tell others and it will
hurt your reputation. Maybe he will tell someone and make trouble for you.
This is less likely with Westerners.

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digi_owl
Sounds like the advice Scotty gave in TNG, about always giving longer
estimates so you appear a miracle worker when you deliver early.

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mads
I have been in Shenzhen for 5 years and know my way around. I am available, if
anyone has any questions about this place or if someone needs a hand here.

~~~
sounds
Have you (or anyone reading this) considered selling your services as a
contractor / consultant?

In particular, I imagine a web forum where you can discuss what's going on in
Shenzhen with interested people from the US, in English.

You can develop jobs and even sub-contract work all using this forum.

Of course, that's just an idea. How would you do it?

I would be very interested in such a thing.

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SexyCyborg
There is a lot of demand for this. Unfortunately people are often very
unrealistic about doing business in China. Being the contact point, translator
or consultant means taking the blame for the usual problems. When translation
does not get good results the translators are blamed because no one else can
understand or really cares if the client is unhappy so they become a “whipping
boy". Often very publicly.

If I were not a local I would use a contract manufacturer. Westerners often
think it’s a communication issue when it’s an relationship issue. Who you know
and have relationships with. If you have established relationships with the
people not willing to lose your future business by delivering poor quality
then you are a contract manufacturer. You are not going to put anyone else in
contact with those people since that is your IP and poor behavior from them
would reflect on you and hurt your future business.

But people want to save some money and try to do each little thing themselves.
When that does not work there is always finger pointing. And I’ve never seen
anyone blame themselves. It’s always the factory, the local Chinese, the
translator/assistant etc.

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shenzhenconsult
What I want is a platform where entrepreneurs and engineers can interact with
manufacturers to create hardware prototypes. I shouldn't have to be in
Shenzhen to work with Chinese manufacturers, and trust shouldn't be an issue
with a well-implemented feedback system.

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FollowSteph3
That's the reason why you get such good prices. Hire cheap developers and you
have to take a gamble on the deliverables. If you're willing to pay a fair or
premium price your worries decrease ;)

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shenzhenconsult
Sorry but I'm not sure how your comment relates to mine. I'm talking about the
challenges involved in manufacturing a hardware product in China without being
physically present there.

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sounds
I actually think a "gamified" feedback system will lead to a bad outcome,
especially because it builds a false hope that $random_user with $points >
big_number will solve all my problems.

A good system would have a few "core people" who work together over a span of
years on several successful projects. By a few, I mean 3-7.

If we can attract Bunnie Huang, all the better. :)

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hugs
I love the easter egg at 3:13. ("ALL PROPRIETARY AND NO OPEN SOURCE MAKES
INNOVATION A SLOW PROCESS") The text is upside down in the video, so it's easy
to miss.

But on that note of open source vs proprietary, I'm building a business on
open source hardware, yet I have a hard time proving to others (especially
other startup founders) that open hardware is the way to go. They fear that
their designs will get cloned and they'll get blown out of the water
(implicitly at a lower cost by someone in Shenzhen). They want to ensure they
can recoup their R&D costs. My point is that if you make a successful product,
you're going to get cloned anyway. The counter-point is usually "But why make
it any easier for them to clone you?"

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fpvracing
> My point is that if you make a successful product, you're going to get
> cloned anyway.

If you're going to get cloned either way, how will you make selling your
hardware a sustainable business?

I love hardware (robotics, incidentally) but I'm so hesitant to release a
hardware product because of the inevitability and futility of competing
against cheaper clones. I've seen it happen again and again in the nascent
world of drone racing - somebody comes up with an innovative new design and
there's a clone on Banggood three weeks later. Then most people just buy the
clone. I don't see how it can be sustainable.

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hugs
In the short to medium-term, it's a hybrid product+consulting business model
with consulting gigs to add features, custom sizes, or integrated with
specific testing frameworks. Long term, competition is based on brand, build
quality, distribution, ISV partnerships, and the ability to keep innovating.
Also, it's a B2B product, so success or failure is predominantly driven by the
quality of the sales team and their process as much as anything else.

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chillacy
Seems like the success of shenzen as a big startup place will also depend on
to what degree IoT takes off, since custom hardware is so essential to that.
Like the video says, the rest of us just use generic hardware where the only
metrics are performance and maybe power consumption.

Imagine how different bay area startups would be if VC backed startups built
robotic arms and legs instead of one-click deploy Rails PaaS infrastructure.

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Taniwha
The thing to realise it's already that, essentially it's the place you go if
you win at Kickstarter - if you went for $10k and got $1M - there's already a
western hardware hacker community regularly rotating through the city.

Of course that's not exactly the traditional startup, these are often people
bootstrapping themselves without a VC sugar daddy - not needing to have an
exit story with 7 0s

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kennell
Looking for a english speaking contact in Shenzen, contact info is in my
profile, hit me up.

~~~
manigandham
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11866581](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11866581)

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surge
Thanks for this, hopefully I'll remember to watch the next part.

