
Danish Submarine Inventor Says He Buried Swedish Journalist at Sea - frenchman_in_ny
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/21/world/europe/swedish-journalist-peter-madsen-danish.html
======
avs733
Even if this was at all believable, to change your answer from 'I dropped her
off' to 'she's dead' isn't really going to do you any favors...

~~~
rightbyte
The police have found a women body "without arms, head and legs" they said
this evening. They have not denied confirmed that it is Kim though.

Is it resonable that the limbs comes off from propellers at random in the sea?
Does that happen?

[http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/article6787128.ece](http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/article6787128.ece)

Murder, dismemberment and maybe more.

Well, submarine murders are kinda tech related ...

~~~
jacquesm
Not a chance a body would lose all limbs and the head in such a short time.

[https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/news-blog/how-long-
do-d...](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/news-blog/how-long-do-dead-
bodies-remain-inta-2009-06-10/)

That could only be deliberate, so if it is Kim Wall's body then Madsen will
have a lot more explaining to do.

------
tlb
There was a time when, if someone in your traveling party died, you'd dig a
hole 6' deep and bury them with some words of tribute. Or at sea, you'd weigh
them down with a rock and slip them over the side.

For future reference, if a traveling companion dies far away from any
emergency services (which wasn't really the case here), what is one's legal
and moral obligation to bring the body back to civilization?

~~~
QAPereo
That is almost certainly a very complicated issue which has a lot to do with
where the person died, your country of origin and so on. In this case however
the guy lied about the timeline and events, which speaks to something other
than death of natural causes.

~~~
lb1lf
Also worth mentioning is that the police were very quickly charging him with
manslaughter - so quick, they probably had indications something was wrong
with his statement even before the sub was raised.

Educated guess - there's cell phone coverage in most, if not all of Køge bay;
it wouldn't surprise me if she managed to call the emergency services.

~~~
jacquesm
> it wouldn't surprise me if she managed to call the emergency services.

Not from within the metal hull of a partially submerged submarine.

~~~
lb1lf
I work offshore on occasion; when in areas with excellent coverage, you'll
often have (spotty) coverage on decks below the waterline - the signal bounces
off any reflective (to RF energy) surface and finds its way into lots of nooks
and crannies where you wouldn't expect to have reception.

~~~
tomjen3
Sure, but a submerged sub shouldn't have any nooks and crannies that leads to
the surface.

~~~
lb1lf
True, but a submarine does not necessarily travel submerged.

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jacquesm
Whatever Madsen did trying to cover it up is definitely not going to help when
sentencing time rolls around. What a fool. It also doesn't help because no
matter what will come out next there will always be a feeling that he's still
holding something back.

It takes a special kind of warp to claim that you tossed someone overboard
because of an accident and then expect to be believed if you already have
admitted to lying about dropping her off on shore in the first place. Not to
mention that additional grief caused to boyfriend and family by first giving
them hope knowing full well that she is dead and then to snatch that hope away
again. Asshole.

The most logical explanation that fits all the details is that he killed her
and is simply fighting a rearguard action on having to admit that not
realizing that his confession is going to end up in the 'optional' bin and
that whatever he says will be discounted. Expect to see the book being thrown
at Madsen, he's lucky if he gets out in the next decade.

~~~
skummetmaelk
There are basically two options.

1\. She suffered an accident on board and Madsen panicked. Knowing that his
reputation would be fucked if someone died on board he threw her overboard and
claimed she was let go.

2\. A sexual request went wrong. Madsen is known to be very forward. He is
also in an open relationship with his wife. Wall might have freaked out
leading Madsen to do something even more stupid than proposition her for sex.

~~~
pvaldes
Casual sex is not enough to explain this. In occident women decline this kind
of proposals all the time. The european men know that this is normal and not a
drama. Is deeply engraved in the culture. In 99,99% of the cases we'll need a
stronger emotion for explain a murder than "my weekeend plan for casual sex
with a complete stranger failed".

I don't think that the man is just a crippled psycho in disguise. Smart people
can't avoid thinking logically, even if their acts seem irrational. There is
always a subjacent current of logic... And here comes the third option

3\. The women did something that was taken as a menace to his current
ego/status and elicit a strong 'defensive' reaction.

The journalist can't be a menace for his wife or family (It seems they are
publicly in an open relation). So probably is not sexual.

The man loves with passion other thing; His work. Maybe she did something that
was seen as a menace against the other love of his life, his submarine. Maybe
she poke around and tried to sneak/photograph/open/discover some parts of the
engine with the purpose to earn some bucks selling the submarine secrets when
returning to China. I'm speculating of course, but unless he was drunk or
drugged (unprobable while driving a sub), or both where flirting for months by
e-mail and he feels cheated, there should be a solid reason for she being
'punished' with death. This is not a random act IMAO.

~~~
jacquesm
> Maybe she poke around and tried to sneak/photograph/open/discover some parts
> of the engine with the purpose to earn some bucks selling the submarine
> secrets when returning to China.

Really, this is the best you could come up with?

This is a hobby sub, not something that is top secret and run by the US navy.
Madsen's sub has no secrets worth a dime.

~~~
pvaldes
A hobby can mean still serious bussiness if you find the right buyer (Think in
minecraft for example).

Casually China has the strongest and biggest (ever-expanding) aquaculture
sector in the entire planet. Militar technology is totally out of reach for
they, too big, and uncloneable, but I bet that a lot of chinese (or norwegian)
seafarming companies could find good uses for a toy like this.

~~~
jacquesm
> A hobby can mean still serious bussiness if you find the right buyer (Think
> in minecraft for example).

Building a submarine is not that kind of a hobby.

> Casually China has the strongest and biggest (ever-expanding) aquaculture
> sector in the entire planet.

Yes, so they don't have much to learn from your average hobbyist sub builder.

> Militar technology is totally out of reach for they, too big, and
> uncloneable, but I bet that a lot of companies with fresh money to burn
> could find good uses for a toy like this.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_093_submarine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_093_submarine)

How is that for a toy? That's a nuclear powered sub the Chinese have a bunch
of them, this one displaces 7000 tonnes submerged compared to the 40 tons of
the Nautilus, has a crush depth orders of magnitude deeper than the Nautilus
and carries a bunch of cruise missiles.

Do you honestly believe the Chinese could learn even a single useful thing
from Madsen's toy?

The only people with a direct interest in running private submarines are the
drug cartels and some salvage companies, and neither of those would lead to
Madsen killing a journalist.

~~~
pvaldes
a toy like this = referred to the madsen submarine

> Do you honestly believe the Chinese could learn even a single useful thing
> from Madsen's toy?

I honestly believe that 99% of people in China don't know how to build a
submarine or have free access to militar technology so, yes I do.

But lets explore your idea. If the reason is neither the passengers, nor the
submarine, must be in the cargo. "Somebody found a shipload of something
illegal, thus must be 'silenced'". Is a perfectly valid hypothesis. The
problem is that: 1) No drugs where found and 2) would the guy be so dumb as to
invite a journalist to enter in a relatively small submarine if there was a
shipload of something illegal inside? It seems unlikely to me.

~~~
jacquesm
You have a very rich imagination.

There are _far_ simpler explanations which do not involve foreign powers,
secrets, drugs and so on.

If Peter Madsen turns out to be a drug smuggler on top of a murderer I guess
it shouldn't surprise me but I'd put the seduction gone wrong entry a lot
higher on the list of likely possibilities.

As for the 99% of the people in China, that's a nice attempt at reverse
Chinese math, we're still looking at 10 million people then who know how to
build a submarine? I'd be highly surprised if it was even 1% of that. The
regular people in China need a submarine about as much as you or I do, which
is not at all, which is one of the reasons why Madsens' efforts were notable
in the first place.

------
piquadrat
Copenhagen Police just announced on Twitter that they got reports of a female
body in the waters southwest of the city this afternoon

[https://twitter.com/kobenhavnpoliti/status/89967522825052979...](https://twitter.com/kobenhavnpoliti/status/899675228250529792)

~~~
sondr3
They're also holding a press conference tonight at 2030 local time.

[https://twitter.com/KobenhavnPoliti/status/89968767838346035...](https://twitter.com/KobenhavnPoliti/status/899687678383460352)

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sarabande
I understand this is a juicy story -- but forgive me, how is this not
considered off-topic given the HN guideline:

    
    
      Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon.

~~~
dtparr
_shrug_ Apparently the peculiarity and the fact that the accused is well known
in certain tech/engineering sectors has passed the 'things hackers are
interested in' bar.

From the same guidelines you quote:

    
    
      Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site.
      If a story is spam or off-topic, flag it by clicking on its 'flag' link.

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dtparr
For context/history, here's the discussion from last week when the events were
first reported (and his story was that he'd dropped her off at shore, still
alive):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14998270](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14998270)

------
frenchman_in_ny
It's unfortunate to see this & negative press on Copenhagen Suborbitals.
Hopefully it doesn't shut down the program.

~~~
tomjen3
He is no longer associated with them and hasn't been for some time. They are
going to launch a rocket a couple weeks from now, weather permitting.

~~~
frenchman_in_ny
Thanks! I hadn't actually followed that. I remembered about an argument
between him and Kristian von Bengtson (which led to vB's departure), but
thought he was still with the group.

Looking forward to the upcoming launch!

------
petre
Why woukd he kill the poor journalist while also sinking his sub? I'm very
curious how this turns out.

~~~
grahn
Most likely for the same reasons almost all crimes of this sort happen. He
made a pass on her that wasn't well received, things got out of hand, emotions
took over and at some point he either injured or killed her in the heat of the
moment, then panicked and tried to cover up the situation.

Violent crime is rarely based on rational, well reasoned acts. I wouldn't try
to read too much logic into it.

~~~
dmix
Do you have any data to support the claim that most crimes of passion involve
"him making a pass at her"? This seems like an obvious narrative for a TV show
but this is merely one of hundreds of possibilities that could result in her
accidental death.

~~~
grahn
My "most" claim was more generic, in that they are situational, triggered by
emotions (and lack of emotional control), and most often between people that
know each other. Him making a pass at her is merely my conjecture of how that
might have happened in this particular case, based on the circumstances that
have been reported.

------
fiatjaf
What does Madsen say about:

    
    
      * What happened while the two were at the submarine?
      * What did he do after he supposedly left her at a restaurante?
      * Why did he changed his story?
      * How did she die?
    

Did the journalist had any special information/characteristics/secret agenda
that could have caused Madsen to kill her and destroy his own life in that
way?

What was happening in the life of this Madsen recently that could indicate
that he was going to do something like that?

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EternalData
This seems like an ill-advised thing to admit?

~~~
Numberwang
better admitting accident and ill advised burial than rape, murder and cover-
up.

~~~
jacquesm
But not better than first misleading authorities with a lie and then to have
the truth come out anyway. That tends to make things considerably worse for
the defendant.

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bhouston
This guy does not seem smart.

~~~
discreteevent
He is smart. There are many competing forces in a human being. Smartness
doesn't always win out. You might even notice this in yourself some day.

~~~
Tomte
Hans Reiser comes to mind. Very strong engineer, comically inept at defending
himself in court.

------
fiatjaf
Who goes alone in a home-made submarine with a strange mad scientist?

~~~
knodi123
tons of people, regularly, over the last few years. this guy was very active
and his sub has been in service for the better half of a decade.

~~~
fiatjaf
So he was apparently a nice normal guy, with no signs of madness?

~~~
plorkyeran
Oh no, he was very clearly mad. Just not the sort of madness that gave the
slightest indication that he'd deliberately cause harm to anyone (
_accidentally_ causing harm by talking people into things, on the other
hand...).

~~~
fiatjaf
ahahah, sorry, that was an unexpected response.

So maybe that's what happened? He talked the journalist into something and
later saw that she had died because of that, probably also causing harm to the
submarine?, then panic'ed and told lies to the police.

