

Bill Would Double Cap on H-1B Visas - muriithi
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/14/AR2008031403028.html

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ardit33
As an H-1B holder I see this bill doesn't adress two major concerns: 1. Fraud
from certain indian sweatshop companies. 2. True mobility of the H-1B visa
holder.

I cam in this country when i was 17, finished high school, college (full
scholarship), and then work. I'd like to think I am an asset to this country,
pretty smart, making good money (and paying lots of taxes), while my current
company still can't fill some of it's positions. There is clear lack of good
talent in this country. So, please don't say that I am displacing american
jobs, as I clearly am not.

It was hard for me to get the H-1B, mainly b/c that year (2003) the cap was
reached fast. Unfortunately a lot of indian big sweatshop companies abuse on
these H-1Bs, by hiring cheap labor from home and displace local americans. I
can't say these guys are good at all, or better than americans, they are just
cheap.

There are few ways to prevent it, and one way would be to not to allow
companies to hire more than 1/3 of their workforce in H-1B, and not allow
sweatshops to use them as a form of job in-sourcing.

I'd like to have the H-1B programm to bring in the truley bright people
(scientist, techies, doctors, professors), that will be an asset to this
country.

2\. Allow true protability. Sure, I can change my job with current rules, but
if I am filing for green card I am basically slave of my company. If I do
change my job I might have to restart everything from the beginning which is a
huge hassle. There are plenty of people that put up with low wages, bad
treatment just to get that green card.

The line is huge, and it takes a long time. Allowing people to file for a
green card for themselves, and not the employeer do that, will bring a
positive change. As long somebody is employed and useful, their green card
application should be good. Then People wont put up with low salaries.

Ah, and the other thing that blows majorly is that if you are unemployed for
more than 60 days, you are out of status (illegal) and have to leave the
country. So, a lot of smart H-1Bs can not join early stage startups, or start
them as the current immigration system doesn't allow that.

Even sergey brin was out of status for few months, while starting google. For
him, it was a happy story at the end, but for many others might not be. If
your startup doesn't go well, you might find yourself un-employable, as there
will be immigration red flags.

As I say, the only americans that complain about H-1Bs taking jobs, are the
ones that do low level tech support jobs, or something at some big boring
corp. I don't know any good and bright programmer that is unemployed.

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falsestprophet
At present, it is arguably a very poor idea for the average American to earn a
PhD in science (or anything else). I am concerned about removing the cap on
visas for foreign graduate students in science.

When there is an unlimited supply of foreigners willing to work for nothing,
salaries for graduate students will surely be depressed even further. I
suspect they may decrease to the minimum wage. I suspect few Westerners, with
much better options, would be willing to work for the minimum wage for the
better part of a decade.

There may be an increase in the number of PhD graduates as a result of their
cheapness. Of course, the salaries for professional researchers would then
drop. Very suddenly, scientists will become a cheap commodity.

These new visas may be a good thing for business, but I fear they are a
disaster for any American making a career in science.

~~~
newt0311
Economic fallacy of the make work bias. If scientists become cheap
commodities, they will start to switch jobs until the salaries equalize the
other options again. Case in point: In the early 1800s about 98% of the US
population was in agriculture. Now the number is less than 2%. In the middle,
farms started to get commodotized and it became less and less lucrative to be
a farmer so farmers switched to higher paying jobs. Imagine what would have
happened if 98% of us were still in farming?

~~~
moog
I think I'd like to be a neo-farmer in 2008. With a little land, a few solar
panels and access to clean water I'm sure most of us here could make a go of
it. Multi-purpose robots are coming soon - they'll be able to help out when
the harvest arrives.

~~~
albertcardona
So you welcome [Asimov's] Caves of Steel scenario. Why not.

~~~
moog
Added to my reading list. I'll try to track down the 1989 BBC radio version.

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tim2
The real problem is those companies that (1) grab up all those slots en mass
(2) pay the workers they bring over next to nothing (3) charge massive fees to
these poor workers. Everyone loses.

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mmrobins
It doesn't sound like everyone loses if the companies get cheaper labor, the
workers get a chance to work even if for less than they would if they were US
citizens, and the more routine tech jobs get filled which probably creates
more interesting jobs for those who are actually passionate about their field.

I'm not familar with any information about US companies charging massive fees
to the workers. Is there a source for that part of your comment?

~~~
tim2
Correction, the companies that I have experience with were not US based.

I will elaborate on why everyone loses. The workers lose because they are paid
less than if they were free to find the highest paying job, and have to invest
a large amount of money to get here (points 2 and 3.) America loses because
the workers are forced into earning less money than they would if they didn't
need to go with these companies to give them more than a remote chance of
getting a visa. This undercuts American workers (point 1.)

The governments may let these companies do this is because the companies pass
off their process as selecting higher quality visa candidates. Immigrants like
them because they know they will not be turned down for a visa if they go
through the company (and getting turned down causes problems later - what the
hell??). Still, bad.

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duMont
Not all H1-b visa holders are programmers. A good chunk of them are actually
IT workers with specializations like implementing SAP, PeopleSoft etc ERP
packages. Same for Database administrators. Even bigger than this list is the
number of people engaged in maintaining some godforsaken legacy MIS or such
software at a huge corporation.

While these jobs might not appeal to a hacker or a good computer science
graduate, there are just too many such jobs. Most H1-b aspirants are quite
happy to take them.

About the H1-b visas for foreign students at US universities, I think it is a
good idea, though not at the numbers listed in the article. I think 30-40000
H1-b visas for students graduating from US universties should be good enough
to cater for the niche companies like Microsoft, Google etc. Imagine a
Stanford or MIT graduate go away from US because he cannot work here? While
not all students at MIT or Stanford is a foreigner, those who are there still
have to apply from the same pool of H1-b visas which is open to just about any
one.

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deltapoint
Although the bill may slightly lower the salary for many American workers,
especially scientists, it is necessary. It would allow America to brain drain
the rest of the world and in doing so greatly help America's economy.
Furthermore, the immigrants wouldn't only fill jobs they could also become
entrepreneurs or small business owners and created new jobs.

~~~
mynameishere
...said Squanto.

~~~
deltapoint
If you are referring to colonization and how that hurt the Native American
population... that is not the same of the current conditions.

America is a country of immigrants. Yet, every group of immigrants is angry
when a new group comes in. Though, once the new groups come and assimilate and
work and pay taxes and create a great culture... America is better for it.

~~~
mynameishere
Your argument is a tautology. "America is better for it," is true, because
America is always being redefined as it changes. "The groups who comprised
America a 100 years ago" are perhaps not better for it. It is a trivial thing
to point out that AmerIndians are quite a bit better off in every measurable
aspect of their lives than 500 years ago. Every has improved but the real
estate/sovereignty situation.

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kajecounterhack
What I don't get sometimes is Americans being all like "Oh noes they'll steal
our jobs for lower pay!" Well then, you should work for lower pay too, no?
Competitive global market, get over it.

Then again, if you think about the country protecting the people, we'll end up
weaker than countries like India and China where all the engineers and compsci
majors are at...

So therein lies the problem: For the sake of the state, or for the sake of the
people? Democracy vs. Whatever, at its finest.

