
Safe Network: Secure P2P app system implemented in Rust - indeyets
https://hub.safedev.org/
======
xiphias2
It's the MaidSAFE scam again, full of buzzwords as usual. I remember being in
a Bitcoin conference being bombarded by people payed by MaidSAFE to promote
their altcoin. They were really aggressive: I told them I'm not interested and
they were just pushing without hearing me.

As Bitcoin price rises near the halving, I expect more scams coming online
again.

Here's a link to their coin's price chart just to make this comment more
interesting:

[https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/maidsafecoin/](https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/maidsafecoin/)

~~~
dirvine
If people were harassing folk saying we paid them, then that was just false
(harassment or not, we don't pay for coin promotions, in fact we don't pay for
any promotions).

I wish folk could discuss the project and it's goals. Incentivisation is part,
but a really small part of the project. As soon as I see a cryptocurrency
comment I just lose faith and have barely any energy to engage. Folk need to
forget money/coins and so on and focus first on the function and vision. All
you get talking cryptocurrency is "it's a scam", "it's a fraud", "somebody
told me X and it was false". Then let's look at some price chart and so on. It
is really just a distraction and the arguments have an infinite lifetime. When
I see projects on github/lab who mention cryptocurrency way up front I also
lose faith. An incentive should not be the vision or function, it's an
incentive it should never be a core goal or technology.

~~~
ARandomerDude
> we don't pay for coin promotions, in fact we don't pay for any promotions

> Incentivisation is part, but a really small part of the project.

It isn't clear to me how to reconcile these statements. Can you elaborate?

~~~
SotRos25
Incentivization is a part of the product in that Proof of Resource dictates
that Farmers (I.e. those who provide resources to the SAFE Network in the form
of bandwidth, hard drive space, CPU, etc.) are rewarded for doing so with
Safecoin. In a sense it is similar to how POW compensated bitcoin miners. This
form of incentivization is autonomously governed by the Network itself, and
has nothing to do with paying for promotions. I’d recommend taking a look at
the SAFE Network primer to understand more
([https://primer.safenetwork.org/](https://primer.safenetwork.org/))

~~~
ARandomerDude
Good synopsis, thank you!

------
ColinWright
So. Many. Buzzwords.

Can someone do an ELI5 of what this is, what this does, what problems it
solves, how a non-developer is affected by it, and what it lets a developer do
that they couldn't do before?

I'm sure I'd be interested in this, but at the moment I can't find a safe,
secure foothold in the torrent of buzzwords.

Thx.

~~~
joshuef
As one of the devs, i'd say:

It solves ownership of data, and removes the need for large data centers by
securely, anonymously letting users share storage space.

I'd caveat that we're still in alpha, but things are coming together very
nicely.

The Safe Network (will) incentive user storage and uptime through
cryptocurrency, though non-blockchain based, so avoiding a lot of throughput
pitfalls there. So it can also act as a storage backed currency in some
fashion.

It allows users to truly own and manage the permissions of their data without
relying on any third party. And it provides enough flexibility for this to let
folk make applications as well as store files.

I hope that helps some? I'm trying to avoid buzzwords :) I know that site has
any. It's also worth noting that the dev hub is a bit out of date (things are
still moving pretty fast.) But the community
([https://safenetforum.org/](https://safenetforum.org/)) is very friendly!

Let me know if I can get more specific, I'll be about for a little longer.

(Oh, also there's some other links in another top level post I made that may
be helpful)

~~~
ColinWright
From what you say it would then appear to be a cryptographically secure
distributed storage system.

So I develop an app, and while my app is running I'm providing some storage
space. I get rewarded for this via some mechanism I don't understand, but
involves some sort of cryptocurrency. I can then store things "out there", and
the cryptography means that it's secure. Similarly, parts of other people's
data gets stored in my app.

Is that right?

If so, what happens to other people's data when I turn off my machine? What
happens to my data when other people turn off their machines, or are otherwise
unavailable?

I don't understand what problem this is solving, or how it can work.

~~~
joshuef
>Is that right?

Sort of. You don't _have_ to enable storage etc in your app. Being a 'node'
can be independent of running an app. And your app can just store things on
the network without having to worry about making a user share their space (and
do onboarding to the network etc).

> If so, what happens to other people's data when I turn off my machine? What
> happens to my data when other people turn off their machines, or are
> otherwise unavailable?

If you turn off your storage, you stop earning money. The network ensures
there are X (currently 8, I believe) copies of each piece of data available at
any one time, so data on the network would be replicated to make up for
whatever went missing as you (or anyone) turn off a node.

> I don't understand what problem this is solving

The problem of centralisation and data hoarding. Facebook. Google. Being de-
facto forced into giving up your data as a user.

It aims to decentralise this, and (hopefully) will make it easier for users to
remain in control of their data, without the need for massive server farms
etc. By using spare space on user's devices.

The crypto currency is an incentivisation layer. (you are rewarded for
participation in storage / serving data etc).

I'd recommend reading the primer
([https://primer.safenetwork.org/](https://primer.safenetwork.org/)) to get
into the details of how this will work.

~~~
jeremyjpj0916
One thing as a long time follower and in the MaidSafe forum would be an active
thread where community members can ask technical questions and get technical
answers when the team has time to dive in and give feedback. Re-reading this
bit I think my question would be: How does SAFE Network, which is
decentralized and anonymous for its users, know how many nodes are currently
running with its replicated data without a crazy amount of polling and network
congestion for every chunk of data. Is the X nodes have this data checked at
the time of request and confirmed on all nodes? If so that would be really
slow but reliable to ensure if a 1-7 nodes have lost the data that that data
gets replicated elsewhere. Also risking that old data that hasn't been fetched
in awhile could have already lost their potential 8 node replication. Now get
even more chatty where all storage nodes constantly poll each other for their
known chucks they posses, that polling at scale sounds like it would become a
real chatty bottleneck to have to basically crontab that seeking functionality
to ensure availability of data at all times. Would be good to have a thread in
the SAFE Network forum where programmers talk with the team and grill on the
nitty gritty to see if these aspects have been solved and can be linked to in
the source code for study.

~~~
dirvine
Each section has Elders, these are 7 oldest (most trusted nodes). The have a
DB of which Adults (up to 120 of these per section) hold the data. On any
Fetch, the Eder can confirm the relevant Adults passed the data. Also on churn
(node leave/join) the relevent data is copied to new locations. So churn in
the section helps us maintain the data.

An important role is continualy checking nodes for malice, evan those we trust
more as they may be in zombie mode bad guys.

~~~
jeremyjpj0916
Any code that can be linked to that already accomplishes all this or still to
be implemented? And to be picky in language I see you say the "Elder can
confirm" does this mean the "Elder will confirm", just a change in wording
from a possibility to a certainty.

"An important role is continually checking nodes for malice, evan those we
trust more as they may be in zombie mode bad guys." -> This is still to be
implemented as well correct? And prior to implementation we need some sort of
RFC that defines types of malice that can occur from a given node as well as
appropriate and secure means to detect the various cases. Ones that come to my
mind are forced sluggishness in an attempt to slow down the network,
intentional loss of data to cause extra lookups elsewhere for a given chunk,
forced intermittent connectivity, so maybe at L4 level it decides to throw
connection reset/connection refused in an attempt to bottleneck traffic across
the network.

------
joshuef
One of the devs here.

For those interested in reading more, I'd recommend the more up to date
[https://safenetwork.tech](https://safenetwork.tech) for a brief overview. And
[the Safe Network
Primer]([https://primer.safenetwork.org/](https://primer.safenetwork.org/))
for a much more in-depth overview

The forum ([https://safenetforum.org/](https://safenetforum.org/)) is a great
community that will happily answer any questions.

There is a test network available of the current iteration. But it's worth
noting this is all still alpha level, and not finalised.

You can see more detail on the "baby-fleming" test net here:
[https://safenetforum.org/t/baby-fleming-public-shared-
sectio...](https://safenetforum.org/t/baby-fleming-public-shared-
section/31377) .

And the CLI implementation for any other curious folk:
[https://github.com/maidsafe/safe-api/tree/master/safe-
cli](https://github.com/maidsafe/safe-api/tree/master/safe-cli)

~~~
cosmojg
Clickable link: [https://safenetwork.tech](https://safenetwork.tech)

~~~
joshuef
Ah thanks!

Sorry, been a lurker on HN for a whiiile. Just made an account to reply. I
assume it's just markdown style?

~~~
kohtatsu
You missed a slash is all.

------
api
I love the goals of this, but I have two hopefully constructive criticisms:

(1) The on-ramp involves downloading and installing a bunch of stuff. Very few
people are going to do that. Is there any way I can try it in a browser or via
a tiny download? I'm talking just looking around. WASM is a thing, so even a
fat slow WASM app that let me test things out would be a good way for me to
see what this stuff is really like.

(2) I feel like this and a lot of other similar projects are too monolithic.
They feel less like the WWW and more like Project Xanadu. This one is actually
not the most complex I've seen, but it's up there. Projects like this either
never fully ship or have steep learning curves.

Lastly...

(3) Anything like this is going to need a killer app to drive initial
adoption. Unfortunately a lot of the P2P killer apps in the past have been
black or grey market related, which has tended to pigeon-hole them as that and
harm more widespread adoption later. You should look for something this can do
that other things do not currently do well. It doesn't need to be some massive
niche like social media. It could be a small niche with a small group of users
who would be enthusiastic about it. In fact sometimes that's better for
initially bootstrapping something.

~~~
happybeing
1\. This is a fair point right now but it is only temporary. There's a SAFE
Network App which will be the key to the network, providing a single point of
contact, installing other things, seeing up a vault if you want to farm,
create a wallet, updates etc. Most people will just download that and go from
there.

2\. Is also a reasonable point to make, but the nature of the goals here means
it has to do a lot more than just sit on top of the existing protocols. It's a
secure, decentralised, _autonomous_ network/platform, which needs to be built
from the ground up in order to solve the many problems we have with the
existing web.

I'm not sure what you mean by monolithic. The ideas are new and can take a
while to grasp but it's worth it.

3\. The community have had long discussions about this so many will agree with
you. But the best response I've heard to this point was from Tim Berners-Lee
when he and David Irvine were at the Decentralised Web Summit in 2018. Someone
said something similar to your point 3 to David and Tim jumped in and answered
that it wasn't necessary by saying: and what was the killer app when I
invented the web? Or something along those lines.

I'm not dismissing your point and many of us aren trying to come up with ideas
for such killer apps.

Personally I suspect we already have some - take a look at the SAFE
fundamentals for example. But it may well be something nobody anticipated.
It's fun thinking them up though :-)

~~~
api
Here's a thought: podcasting.

Podcasting has the vibe of the early DIY web. It's largely independent and
isn't "owned" by an oligopoly unlike social media. Indie podcasters sometimes
struggle with distribution if they get popular. Lastly, it has a major
vanishing content problem when old orphaned podcasts disappear from podcast
hosting services but may still be interesting.

It would also be fairly easy to write a web-to-SAFE bridge server that allowed
people to add podcasts hosted on the SAFE network to regular RSS podcast
players. People could run this themselves or run open ones on the web, with
the latter amounting to a community run CDN.

~~~
nkot2020
I ‘know a guy‘ who decided to build a music platform for the network and
podcasting would be an easy addition. ;)

Although a dedicated and native recording and podcast publish app would be
better and that idea has rolled through my head a few times. Have a good idea
on the branding and interface already. Excellent suggestion and reaffirming
for sure.

------
the_duke
So the landing page emphasizes a "network" aspect. Which really confused me,
since I thought this was some VPN/Wireguard alternative.

The header on "Start Developing" is more informative: "The SAFE Network is a
scalable, distributed application platform"

It seems to be something like IPFS or Dat, with app development tooling,
monetization, SSO, and a "privacy-first network".

~~~
joshuef
It's a tough one to categorize. (I say that as a dev on the project)

It's similar to IPFS in terms of the goal of distributed file storage. But it
incentivizes users to store in non-blockchain way, sidestepping a lot of the
size and throughput issues there.

Connections are indeed anonymized. But as you can work with and update data in
a distributed fashion, there's a lot of scope for applications. (We've
previously built a simple twitter clone, using RDF data on an older testnet:
[https://github.com/maidsafe/safe-patter-js](https://github.com/maidsafe/safe-
patter-js))

Things are still very much in development. Still Alpha stage. But There are
things available for users to try!

The Safe Primer (maintained by community members) may be a good place to
start:

[https://primer.safenetwork.org/](https://primer.safenetwork.org/)

The dev hub is sadly out of date with current things. The forum is very
friendly and open to new folk and answering any questions:
[https://safenetforum.org](https://safenetforum.org)

The main network website has more generalised info:
[https://safenetwork.tech/](https://safenetwork.tech/)

Hope that's helpful!

------
jchook
Found this whitepaper on Safecoin:
[https://docs.maidsafe.net/Whitepapers/pdf/Safecoin.pdf](https://docs.maidsafe.net/Whitepapers/pdf/Safecoin.pdf)

------
poletopole
My hat is off to you sir, we need more projects like these. I'm working on an
analogous protocol, called "iota" also implemented in Rust, however, it's not
ready for primetime yet.

I have a few questions for the devs if you guys/gals don't mind answering
them, and don't feel obliged to answer all of them:

1\. What algorithms do you use to measure information entropy and consistency
efficiently?

2\. How does your protocol handle or adapt and recover from network
partitions?

3\. How do ensure that a user's data will not be shared or leaked to
unauthorized 3rd parties once it leaves the network?

4\. How are applications that use your protocol sandboxed?

5\. Does your protocol use conflict-free replicated data types or does the
protocol offer an alternative means of merging and reconciling data?

6\. How does your protocol self-certify requests and authorize them?

7\. Does your protocol employ ML in any facet to work?

8\. Lastly, what provoked you to start on your protocol in the first place?
Just out of curiosity.

#8 for me personally: I realized after a decade in the software industry that
programming sucks because there is a lack of protocol diversity and no means
of reasonably and quickly developing new ones, and the consequence is that our
application code ends up very convoluted and hard to reason about and hard to
maintain.

~~~
dirvine
Hope I can help.

1\. Not 100% sure what you mean here. Our data goes via our self_encyption
process. That chunks the data and stores it as immutable where the name ==
sha3 of content. This is self validatable data to us.

2\. Small partitions are not a huge issue, but partitions that are long-
lasting and over 60% or so are. This is not detailed yet, but all data is
signed by a section chain. The section chain is the BLS aggregate of the
section elders. All sections in the network have such a chain back to the
genesis key/block. This allows data to be republished if necessary and really
helps with partitions. This is allowed as data is signed by a valid network
section key that is held in the section. However, transaction data is very
different and we don't have a final conclusion there as theoretically one side
would get consensus and the other does not. This seems to be a decent answer,
but it can be much better. We are currently looking at some crdt types here,
such as nonzero counters and so on, so that could allow transactions to happen
on both partitions, but it's not trivial and we need to consider is partition
permanent or even long enough that so many members change that quorum is lost.
Again not the end of the world, but there is no final conclusion there just
yet.

3\. Our fundamental is all data is chunked and encrypted. So the data is
encrypted by self-encryption (a take on convergent encryption), but perhaps
easiest to think the user strongly encrypts data and only they have the key.
Even public data is like this, but the passwords to decrypt are held by the
user in a map that names each chunk with a created password (that comes from
the data itself, not created by the network). For public data, chunks are
still encrypted, but this data map is held in immutable state.

4\. At the moment they are not sandboxed, this should not be the case on
launch.

5\. CRDT is what all data on the network should follow, this is being
formalised more right now and we hope to see more containers in rust-crdt as
well as a bft-crdt extension to this. It's an area we are currently looking to
provide and it's coming along well.

6\. Requests are signed by the client (we use BLS there to allow multisig).
Network node events are signed by the p2p nodes (ED25519 there). Network
agreed events (consensused) are BLS aggregate signed.

7\. No, not at this time.

8\. I worked in large scale network design from the 90's and hated novel/NT
etc. as they we way to complex and for small companies horrendous. I created a
project called eboxit, an all in1 linux intranet/internet box in 1996 but
could not fund it. I realised during that process that these boxes could
collaboratively back each other up if they used encryption etc. I then
realised it was mental to do that and folks computers could collaborate to
create a server like device. Then I realised it was not novell/NT etc. at
fault, it was any server and any centralised and controlled by humans system
that was at fault. Then 2002-2006 I worked on some form of a first step,
little did I know how involved it would be or how difficult funding and
building teams from the West coast of Scotland would be. However now OSS has
really moved on and with a community it's easier to attract great Engineers.
Not geniuses or the best in the world, but the comitted to the vision, just
get it done Engineers. That agreed vision make them the best in the world for
this specific project ;-)

8 We share that and more. I also believe that AI/neuroevolution/SGD etc. will
make huge strides soon and do so with a bang. I am desperate to get time on
that, but SAFE is needed first, either this project or another that frees and
secures the worlds people to learn, create and communicate without any loss of
privacy.

Oh yea, grit, determination and sacrifice are so important. Especially when we
got into crypto (btc etc.) as this brought huge amounts of people, but also
scammers and folk calling fraud, scam etc. That takes a personal toll when you
have already given so much, but the project is important so the price has to
be paid.

~~~
poletopole
Thanks for answering! Damn, your #2 and #8 answers were very interesting.
Iota's encryption is based on Collatz graph mapping, but it's still
theoretical at this moment.

------
goindeep
SAFE is the way of the future. Especially with what is going on now....If you
can't see it, too bad for you :)...but suggest you give it a read or watch,
plenty of videos too if that is your thing. Interesting too in 2008 the last
financial catastrophe we witnessed the birth of Bitcoin and Blockchain
technology emerge. This time, 2020 we have the same yet there is also a weird
Orwellian/Huxley type aspect to it with all the worlds governments pushing
forward with all kinds of Draconian measures and here we are on the cusp of
team Maidsafe about to hit the launch button on the SAFE Network.... ;)

------
vertex-four
In the README of their "consensus protocol":

> Upcoming features

> Foolproof handling of malice

~~~
dirvine
(project dev here) There are several levels of consensus. Parsec is a strict
order (CP) algorithm. There are also AP ( _strongly_ eventually consistent)
algorithms in play here. These are more concurrent consensus (think CRDT and
causal order). Now if we back out a wee bit there are some places where strict
order is an easy answer, but I personally feel these are all likely to become
much more AP like in the future.

Then malice, it's a different module/behavior and requires we either prove the
code (SGX etc. which currently is a bit too early) or we add malice detection
across the board. This means nodes must not only be on-line or accepting
messages, they must not create invalid messages etc. and this is not to
difficult to deect. Then add to that the hard detection which is did the node
process and forward/reply correctly? This is hard and requires a syncronicity
assumption. I belive many projects focus on async everything meaning a node
can reply at any time in the future and this is a bit tricky if you have
memebrship changes (look at swim etc. for gossip). So for us we make the sync
assumtion and have moved to allow a period (of events) that nodes must message
(vote etc.) correctly. Then we apply the message malice detection. So malice
detection is system wide and a very large area of decentralised networks at
this level.

------
iancoleman
The technical side of this project is pretty interesting.

There's TOR-style anonymity using Reliable Message Delivery [0] (and to a
lesser degree also Secure Message Delivery [1]). The whole routing aspect of
this network is quite the fascinating rabbit hole.

Sybil attacks are addressed with Node Age [2] rather than proof of work, which
should be very energy efficient but is maybe open to bribery or collusion
(still an open question).

Sharding (to use the ethereum term) is implemented using Disjoint Sections [3]
which splits the content-addressable data into sections so nodes only store
part of the total data, making it much more efficient from a storage point of
view than blockchains like bitcoin or ethereum1.

Unlike most cloud storage (eg storj, s3 et al) the network does _not_ use
erasure coding, instead relying only on redundancy. It'll be interesting to
see how this plays out since there's a lot of existing research detailing the
benefits of erasure coding [4].

The economics of the network are still very far from being finalised and will
be challenging to get right. One of the key motives for the project is free-
to-access (so anyone can browse) so that means storage nodes are not directly
rewarded by clients for the necessary bandwidth to serve that data. It's not
clear exactly how this is going to work but given the success of torrents
(which are not directly rewarded for seeding) it seems that this particular
motive should be possible to achieve.

This is just the technical aspects I think HN people will find interesting.
The social impact of truly permanent data and truly private user-owned data
will also be unique aspects of this network.

[0]
[https://github.com/maidsafe/rfcs/blob/bebf53550bb2171deadb76...](https://github.com/maidsafe/rfcs/blob/bebf53550bb2171deadb7697a813f088ec80a035/text/0058-reliable-
message-delivery/0058-reliable-message-delivery.md)

[1]
[https://github.com/maidsafe/rfcs/blob/bebf53550bb2171deadb76...](https://github.com/maidsafe/rfcs/blob/bebf53550bb2171deadb7697a813f088ec80a035/text/0056-secure-
message-delivery/0056-secure-message-delivery.md)

[2]
[https://github.com/maidsafe/rfcs/blob/bebf53550bb2171deadb76...](https://github.com/maidsafe/rfcs/blob/bebf53550bb2171deadb7697a813f088ec80a035/text/0045-node-
ageing/0045-node-ageing.md)

[3]
[https://github.com/maidsafe/rfcs/blob/bebf53550bb2171deadb76...](https://github.com/maidsafe/rfcs/blob/bebf53550bb2171deadb7697a813f088ec80a035/text/0037-disjoint-
groups/0037-disjoint-groups.md)

[4] [https://maisonbisson.com/post/object-storage-prior-art-
and-l...](https://maisonbisson.com/post/object-storage-prior-art-and-lit-
review/)

------
nkot2020
From someone who has done their due diligence on this project, I have to
inform you there is another project using the name Safecoin @ safecoin.org
that is scammy and IS NOT related in any capacity to Maidsafe OR the
SAFEnetwork project. That said, the SAFEnetwork project has impressed me a
great deal with their technical progress towards making an autonomous self
healing network that is centered around security, privacy, data
ownership/control and usability. Obviously something we can all agree is
(possibly over) ambitious and mouth watering fodder to those of us
understanding in which ways the large tech monopolies silo and steal user
data, track us, off our backs for their gain. The projects proposal almost
seems like a bait and switch no? Maybe too good to be true? Maidsafe has been
at it for over a decade, it has to be a scam. Just riding off the back of
Bitcoin! No. The idea has been around since 2006 before bitcoin and though
even up until mid 2019 the way in which this vision would be achieved had been
R&D’d for the umteenth time, that stage is over and the engineering has been
nothing short of brilliant.

There are at home tests that can be run through the command line of the first
iterations of a working network that prove this technology. Check out the
[baby Fleming release]([https://safenetforum.org/t/safe-network-dev-update-
march-26-...](https://safenetforum.org/t/safe-network-dev-update-
march-26-2020/31360?))

Or for the less technical crowd you can get your hands dirty with either a
network gateway tool called the SAFEnetwork App, the desktop or mobile SAFE
Browsers, using Maidsafe’s shared section of the third iteration of baby
Fleming. Check out the latest downloads
[here]([https://safenetforum.org/t/download-safes-latest-
versions/30...](https://safenetforum.org/t/download-safes-latest-
versions/30904?)) and the mobile browser can be found
[here]([https://github.com/maidsafe/safe-mobile-
browser](https://github.com/maidsafe/safe-mobile-browser)). Once you are
connected visit safe://sites to see a few sites others have tinkered with and
published or publish one yourself.

Some might think the amount of available content is a bit lack luster at first
but there is a growing amount of app developers working to publish their apps
to a live network.

When will the network be fully live? No one can fully answer that and that
includes Maidsafe but the R&D is done. The fundamental technology and
different working parts are proven and working together but now the focus is
on optimizing performance, concurrency and guarantees, and some additional
features (such as multi-sig, and later RDF/Linked Data). All the while a
professional and intuitive user interface is being designed to converge with
the end product that will allow for full access and control of your personal
data and web publishing, data sharing abilities. This is one area that is
under served in the “crypto” space and one area that Maidsafe is
underestimated and will surprise many. The lead designer at Maidsafe has a few
things up his sleeve and how the network is uniquely built enables a lot of
functionality.

Don’t over look or underestimate this project. SAFEnetwork has a very bright
future.

~~~
ddrdrck_
If safecoin.org is a scam, why aren't maidsafe and/or sagenetwork
representatives trying to :

\- shut down safecoin.org,

\- if not possible : change the name of their own coin and/or project to make
it clear it is not related in any way with safecoin.org

\- in any case : advertise this issue more largely and more clearly ?

~~~
SotRos25
They have tried/and are still working through this issue. Debate has ranged
from asserting MaidSafe’s rights to the Safecoin trademark to changing the
name. Here are links to some of the discussions on this that have taken place
on the forum:

[https://safenetforum.org/t/the-safecoin-roadmap-the-road-
of-...](https://safenetforum.org/t/the-safecoin-roadmap-the-road-of-
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