
Computer science is the key to America’s skills crisis - dineshp2
http://techcrunch.com/2016/03/04/computer-science-is-the-key-to-americas-skills-crisis/
======
dbcurtis
And the article talks about teaching coding. I'm tired of seeing that. We need
to teach kids to _think_ , to _question_ , to be _creative problem solvers_.
If we do, some of those kids will end up in CS eventually, but all will do
well.

I'm tired of reading "we need more coders" articles that read just about the
same as "We need more kids to study diesel mechanics at community college so
that we can keep the trucks rolling to WalMart."

Standardized testing is killing our kids brains. Instead, they should be
required to _ask_ questions, not give stock answers.

~~~
tosseraccount
"Standardized testing is killing our kids brains".

Some think otherwise : "Standardized admissions tests are valid predictors of
many aspects of student success across academic and applied fields." \-
[http://science.sciencemag.org/content/315/5815/1080](http://science.sciencemag.org/content/315/5815/1080)
_Standardized Tests Predict Graduate Students ' Success_.

Is there any evidence that it is "killing kids' brains" ?

With all the variability in education quality, we need a measure of potential
and smarts.

~~~
epalmer
Observing high school kids that take part in project based learning (outside
of the classroom) and noting how fast they develop deeper skills, critical
thinking and problem solving. Small sample size but before and after
observations are mostly very positive. (FIRST robotics)

So maybe not killing kids brains but maybe not developing them to the peak
potential.

You might like to look at Olin College. They are trying to reinvent
Engineering education. Yes they are only selecting the very best for their
project based learning program. But they are working with other schools to see
if their methods translate into benefits for non-Engr STEM and college
students of average abilities.

~~~
tosseraccount
[http://www.olin.edu/news-events/2014/olin-college-
number-8-f...](http://www.olin.edu/news-events/2014/olin-college-
number-8-forbescom-list-top-25-colleges-ranked-sat-scores/)

"Olin College Number 8 on Forbes.com List of Top 25 Colleges Ranked by SAT
Scores"

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brandonmenc
Heard this one before.

Studying comp sci in the mid to late 90s, my classes were full of people who
didn't have a passion for programming but knew the jobs paid well, presumably
because demand outstripped supply.

What followed was a seeming glut of applicants for unexciting "low-end" jobs -
writing Java at insurance companies, for example - then they all disappeared.
And here we are today.

Am I remembering this wrong? This was my anecdotal experience from far outside
of SV.

~~~
ghrifter
Current senior in Comp Sci here - I'd say a good portion of my classmates just
want a cozy job doing programming for some enterprise company. They know CS
degree pays well, like an engineering degree. For myself, I also just want a
cool, less stressful corporate/enterprise job. Maybe in 5 years I can see
myself doing some startup or SaaS business or something.

Then again, I go to a state school and a lot of my classmates (if not all) are
not super into programming scene(like maintaining a GitHub, doing side
projects out of school, etc)

edits: clarity

~~~
eikenberry
I would not describe corporate/enterprise jobs as less stressful, based on my
experiences the opposite is true. I've found the best niche is mid-sized
companies where you have a better chance of finding someplace where you can
actually contribute in a meaningful way, get paid decently and not have to
spend more time ass kissing than working.

------
thefastlane
"The United States faces a global competitiveness crisis that, if not
addressed, will put our nation at a strategic disadvantage for decades to
come. In just a few years, there will be 1.8 million jobs unfilled in our
nation"

would love to see the data behind this as it seems unlikely to me. what i see
is many american companies offshoring large swaths of their software
development efforts to foreign satellite offices, or outright replacing in-
house IT development with SaaS solutions. from my perspective, i have a hard
time imagining some confluence of events resulting in "1.8 million jobs
unfilled" here in the US any time soon.

~~~
Amezarak
Well, a defense contractor at the location I work is complaining that they
can't fill jobs and can't keep them filled.

The problem is that they won't pay more than 55k for programmers or engineers,
but the popular _business_ explanation is that it's a skills shortage - there
just aren't enough skilled applicants!

No, there's just not enough skilled applicants willing to work for bottom-
barrel wages. To be fair, this is mostly being driven by the government in the
defense contracting world.

~~~
npalli
What location is this? So this pool of skilled applicants who won't work for
55K, what jobs are they doing instead? Since most explanations of your sort
claim that a large pool of skilled IT workers will materialize if the pay is
increased, let's say the pay is increased to 75K which job sectors will people
leave and join IT?

~~~
fweespeech
> Since most explanations of your sort claim that a large pool of skilled IT
> workers will materialize if the pay is increased, let's say the pay is
> increased to 75K which job sectors will people leave and join IT?

We have no trouble filling positions at $70k. Like, literally, we have never
had an open position for longer than 60 days.

The problem is people keep complaining they can't fill positions and pay
$15-20k below market rate. Why, yes, people are not going to take a 20% paycut
to work for you.

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valine
I see it as a chicken vs egg problem. The reason only 1 in 10 schools offer
programming classes is probably the same reason CS jobs go unfulfilled. There
are not enough people with the required expertise. I'm not studying Computer
Science so I can get a job teaching programming classes at a high school.

~~~
w1ntermute
CS is a discipline best self-taught. I'm not sure better education will solve
anything. It'll just produce more mediocre engineers.

~~~
samfisher83
If this were the case companies like google Facebook etc. would be full of
self taught programmer. In reality most of people there go to stanford,
Harvard etc. aka the top schools. Just look at their executive bios or look
through linkedin.

~~~
w1ntermute
You're assuming that going to Stanford or Harvard is mutually exclusive with
being a self-taught programmer. I'd guess that the most successful Stanford or
Harvard CS grads are self-taught coders (and also have great soft skills).

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exstudent2
> Third, we must ensure innovation in the classroom through the use of digital
> content and tools to provide individualized, data-based learning and improve
> educational outcomes.

Wow, that really doesn't sound like something that will help kids learn to
code. How about instead of trying to get millions of dollars of multimedia
content and one off coaching apps built, we just have kids build a web page
for themselves in 1st grade?

People learn to code by coding things and researching what they need to build
the thing they're working on.

I also don't think there's any kind of programmer shortage. There's just a
misallocation of capital into the executive ranks. Start paying 1M a year for
engineers and you'll have excellent people lined up for your roles.

------
pigpaws
Companies complain that there are not enough people, and use the 'shortage' as
a reason to go H1b a la Disney, but they won't lift a finger to TRAIN people
for what is needed because they say the employees will bolt - well STOP
treating employees like crap and they'll stick around... The H1b fiasco just
reduces wages and standard of living. sometimes there ARE legitimate reasons
for unions...

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rubidium
"In just a few years, there will be 1.8 million jobs unfilled in our nation
because we don’t have enough individuals trained with the necessary technical
skills to fill them." Source?

"we must ensure innovation in the classroom through the use of digital content
and tools to provide individualized, data-based learning and improve
educational outcomes"

The author is asserting computer science is the solution, but gives ZERO
evidence for if it's a workable or good solution.

~~~
tanker
There may be a problem. Computer science may be a solution.

The author establishes neither.

My opinion, is that it would be good if we could find a way to reduce the
requirement for unskilled manual labor through computer science. Without more
research, I wouldn't make it a call for action.

Does anyone have a better article on this issue?

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ThrustVectoring
Hahahaha. No. Currently, approximately ten in ten schools offer math
education, and there isn't a glut of mathematicians. On the contrary, the
majority of adults now _hate_ math.

If you want to have more skilled American programmers, the solution is
probably more along the lines of lead paint remediation, childhood nutrition,
and anti-poverty measures. Create an environment where children can succeed at
playing around with computers, math, and logic, and you'll go much further.
"Programming class" at a typical school is not this environment.

------
diogenescynic
There is no skills gap. That is just propaganda put out by tech companies so
they can lobby for more H-1Bs. A great article on this:
[http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-
crisis-i...](http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-
myth)

------
jkot
Programming != Computer Science

It is actually very hard to find a job in Computer Science, as in any other
research discipline.

~~~
collyw
Twenty years ago that was the subject you studied to get a job programming.
Its probably still the name in many universities.

------
alayne
We need to resist the urge to turn education into job training. Computer
science done wrong could do more harm than good.

------
tryitnow
And what happens when all these newly minted coders look for jobs at roughly
the same time?

I disagree with the common belief that somehow coding is the path to a stable
economic future.

History has shown time and time again that if a profession has no regulatory
barriers to entry then corporations will eventually bid labor to the lowest
value.

And that seems to be exactly what's going on here. Corporations are pressuring
the state to basically pay for their human capital development.

Job trends follow capital market trends and capital markets are wildly
irrational. For the last five years there's been an ideology among top
management that suggests just hiring a bunch of developers is somehow going to
create great products.

There has been little to no serious cost controls.

Right now management has overhired, there's simply not enough economically
viable projects to keep all the massive development staffs busy. So there's a
lot of work on projects that don't have a realistic shot at a financial
return.

Eventually those projects are going to get cut.

Around the same time this is happening there will be a glut of newly minted
junior developers jostling desperately for work to pay off their student
loans.

I know this is highly contrarian, but it's just realistically how capitalism
works. The good times always come to an end.

------
mmagin
My own take is that this suffers the same problem as all the other "Teach
everyone to code" initiatives.

Learning to be even a moderately good programmer requires the willingness to
keep screwing around with an annoyingly stupid, complex machine for however
long it takes to adjust your thought processes to match the challenges of
computer programming. It's not enough to think logically. You have to be able
to think logically where applicable while at the same time understanding that
some stuff makes no sense -- either it's so complex that it feels
nondeterministic, or you're faced with the social complexity of a ridiculous
software stack, or even though you're working on a "simple" high-level problem
you have to cut through nearly all the layers of abstraction to get a clear
understanding of what the real problem is. And many real problems end up being
twice as hard as you'd ever have imagined.

And I don't think our culture is doing a good job of raising people with the
values to be willing to do that. If anything, childhood education teaches to
spit out the "correct" answers and to follow the rules. This does not help
develop the mental strength to be a good programmer.

------
sklogic
I just wonder if they'll ever stop confusing CS with a software engineering?

------
sonabinu
I went back to school for my MS and saw many people who were there simply
because this could get them a stable job. Their interest was virtually zero
and they hated coding or understanding algorithms. They are all in software
jobs now but in roles that support programmers and the tech industry

~~~
whitegrape
Why were you there? Going for a MS seems like a poor way to fulfill the
desires of learning more about algorithms or being able to code more, for me
I'd only consider it if it was a stepping stone to a better place in the
corporate ladder or a stepping stone that's part of being paid to work on
intensely interesting PhD material for a few years.

~~~
steven777400
Not OP but I did my MS so I could teach at the college level.

Along the way, I did learn a lot that continues to benefit me now, 10 years
later. I'd recommend an MS to anyone in the field who wants to learn more
about the underpinnings of computer hardware or software (I did my MS with a
Programming Languages emphasis) but who isn't necessarily sufficently self-
motivated to just do the reading/open courseware without a supportive
community of peers.

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debacle
...what skill crisis? There isn't a skill crisis. There is a wage crisis.

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MarlonPro
I agree CS is essential, but as a 'key'? Maybe not. Let's go back to
fundamentals - which means math & science.

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pc2g4d
Isn't a shortage of computer programmers really a symptom of some type of
market signaling failure? Or at least the slowness of supply responding to
demand?

