
Uber ruled illegal in Taiwan - dheera
http://international.thenewslens.com/post/286323/
======
temp
Just to clarify, they're banned from offering Uber service until they register
as a Taxi service.

>There are also cases in which legal loopholes have allowed the company to
continue its operations. For example, Uber plans to purchase commercial
licenses for its drivers in Germany, where ride-sharing services are banned
from operating without taxi licenses.

It's similar in the country I'm currently in - Uber works as a Taxi service
and Uber drivers have Taxi licenses. Altho I would not call this a "loophole"
as this is the route Uber should have taken from the get go in those places
where they don't allow those without Taxi licenses to operate Taxi services.

~~~
ThomPete
The irony is that Uber is somehow showing that you don't need taxi licenses to
run a responsible taxi service from the point of view of the drivers. It's
totally doable to run an effective and safe service without requiring taxi
licenses.

The problem is their morals when it comes to how they treat their drivers.

~~~
DanBC
The insurance of Uber cars outside the US is dubious. I'd question whether
uninsured cabs are a safe option.

~~~
TheCoreh
Here in Brazil at least, Uber requires drivers to pay insurance for both them
and the passengers for any potential accidents.

~~~
vkou
Do any private insurers offer packages which permit the use of the vehicle as
a taxi?

Does Uber check that their drivers have such insurance?

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chatmasta
When I was in Taipei, the cab system was 100 times better than uber and had
none of the problems of the cab system in the US. If uber's main value
proposition is superiority to taxis, then it makes no sense for it to try to
take over in a city where the taxis are perfectly fine.

Honestly, the same is true in NYC. I rarely call an uber because it's just
easier to get one of the hundreds of yellow cabs than it is to stand on the
street like an idiot looking for the Toyota Prius with the right license
plate.

Since uber arrived, all the issues I had with cabs seem to have disappeared.
The fares are lower, drivers accept credit cards, and don't talk on their
cellphone to their buddy in India. Uber put the pressure on cabs and it
worked. I see no need to use uber.

~~~
KerrickStaley
A counter-anecdote to your anecdote: When I was in Taipei my friends and I
tried to get a cab to Jiufen. The cab driver told us there was a special fixed
rate for the trip and quoted us a number that seemed reasonable but was
actually around a 50%-100% markup over the mileage/time-based price. So we
called an Uber and saved about 50% vs what the cab quoted. The driver couldn't
change the price and trick tourists.

~~~
ddeck
I doubt the driver was trying to trick tourists. I've taken taxis to jiufen on
a few occasions and drivers always typically want a fixed price that varies
with each driver. This is with Taiwanese friends doing the negotiating.

I think it's somewhat understandable given it's a long way out of Taipei City
and there's no guarantee of being able to find a return fare.

~~~
jerguismi
To me it sounds clear that uber has benefits there in that case, unlike the
grandparent is claiming. Most consumers favour constant prices without
surprises, and dislike negotiation processes.

~~~
vkou
Only because they force the driver to eat the loss (Or pay him with VC money).

If there is no guarantee of a fare back, this kind of pricing is not
sustainable long-term.

~~~
randyrand
Why not? It's definitely sustainable. The loss can be offset by the gains. And
if the gains outweigh the loss then it's sustainable.

~~~
vkou
It's sustainable - if prices for regular rides rise to compensate for the
losses drivers take on less profitable ones.

... and all of a sudden, you are back to taxi pricing.

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sherbondy
As a side note, do any native Mandarin speakers have a good understanding of
why app is usually spelled and pronounced as if it were an acronym (A.P.P.)
instead of an abbreviation? Have been wondering about this for months, and the
Quora thread on it is a little unsatisfactory: [https://www.quora.com/Why-do-
some-Chinese-people-in-China-pr...](https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-Chinese-
people-in-China-pronounce-app-as-a-p-p)

~~~
neilni
I'm a native mandarin speaker from Taiwan and now living in NY. I think it
just comes down to the fact that english is not everyone's first language
there.

For your example, people end up pronounce A.P.P because not everyone knows
that app comes from `application` and therefore you might run into
conversations with people speaking with different pronunciations. Some people
pronounce 'app' the normal way, and some people pronounce 'app' similar to
(ape).

After awhile, people would explain what they're trying to say by spelling out,
and eventually you'd learn to just say A.P.P instead of attempting to
incorrectly pronounce the word.

Same thing goes with Facebook, which is referred as F.B, and Instagram, which
is usually referred as I.G

~~~
xiaoma
Instagram is "eye jü". Nobody in Taiwan really says G.

------
matthewrudy
I work at GoGoVan in Hong Kong.

We operate in 5 countries in Asia offering van hire and delivery services.

But in Taiwan we've had regulatory issues, so we only operate a scooter
delivery service.

Its a similar issue to Uber. We'd need to have a license and a minimum size
fleet of vehicles to do it.

[https://www.gogovan.tw](https://www.gogovan.tw)

~~~
imrehg
Is there any English speaking site/app for non-Taiwanese living in Taiwan? I
really think for every locality there should be English as an option.

~~~
matthewrudy
That's a good question. We're currently talking about this.

But, even if our app and website works perfectly in english, there's little
chance the driver will speak english.

In Hong Kong we have a "speaks english" service you can pay for.

~~~
imrehg
I cannot completely tell from the app pictures on the site, but it would worth
thinking about it how much English people need for delivery? E.g. Uber is in
English here, and was using it pretty fine without much Chinese. It's less of
an issue for me, have an "everyday" level of proficiency, but in general.

Also, do you have different apps for the different markets?

If it's the same app everywhere, then it would make sense that the people can
bring the "service" with them e.g. going from Taiwan to HK on a business trip,
or Singapore for a few months work stint (or any other direction), and they
can still use it the same way.

It drives me crazy to no end when there's an international company, and
language is completely tied to the location. Your case make a bit more sense
than others, and it's a ton of work, I know. Just some thoughts.

~~~
matthewrudy
It'd be fair to say that our customer base is mostly Chinese speaking in
Taiwan.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be more friendly.

We have one app with a whole host of different options baked into it for each
country.

* different graphics

* different mapping SDKs

* different languages

* different vehicle types and service options

I should give a technical talk in Taipei one day on it.

I used to live in Taipei, but moved full-time back to HK in September.

------
newsignup
> The Business Insider reports, some countries and regions have completely
> banned the service, finding it illegal under national or state laws. These
> places include Japan, Thailand, Nevada in the United States and Karnataka in
> India.

Not in Karnataka, India - I and everyone uses it everyday.

~~~
witty_username
Yep, even their website has a page for Bangalore.

[https://www.uber.com/cities/bangalore/](https://www.uber.com/cities/bangalore/)

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audreyt
Uber and Airbnb participated in the vTaiwan e-deliberation process, with quite
different results —
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbdvvStfWT0&list=PLdwQWxpS51...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbdvvStfWT0&list=PLdwQWxpS513DB98lg8kgEVG66dierWOio&index=3)
explains the crowd-policymaking process in 14 minutes.

------
aabajian
Can someone enlighten me about the history of the taxi industry? I have a
medical background and I know that HIPAA came to be because insurance
companies were taking advantage of patients with known conditions. There were
other reasons, of course, but horror stories of patient's protected health
information being sold to the media and insurance companies prompted the
legislation.

I have a hard time understanding how regulating personal transit is a
governmental matter. A taxi driver may overcharge me a significant amount, and
then there are instances of physical confrontation, but these are both rare
and a risk that is inherent in accepting a ride with another person. It seems
to me that the benefit to society (less pollution, traffic, easier commute,
automotive scrap waste, etc) outweighs these risks.

~~~
vertex-four
Road management is a Government matter - specifically, managing congestion,
where vehicles are allowed to stop and when, etc. Add on top of that the not-
uncommon story in many countries of a taxi driver charging an extortionate
fare without notice. Add on top of that ensuring that taxi drivers actually do
their jobs and get people where they're going, rather than refusing to take
people to locations within the city that are "too far away". Add on top of
that regulating taxis so that people with disabilities can actually get out
and about, seeing as public transport is dire in the US.

All of these things are things that people had _huge_ problems with convincing
taxi companies to actually solve - after all, it's more profitable not to -
and eventually local Governments agreed that taxis are as important to a
city's transport infrastructure as anything else and should be held to a
certain standard. You can only realistically argue against that if you believe
that everyone who was using taxis had an alternative, which isn't the case.

Uber solves many of these issues, I must admit - but what about five years
down the line, once they have the near-monopoly they're seeking? Can we be
absolutely certain it will continue to do what's best for the cities it
services, even when it affects Uber's bottom line?

~~~
amelius
> ... the near-monopoly they're seeking ...

They will probably not get anywhere near a monopoly. Their businessmodel is
flawed: anyone can start a similar service. In fact, many similar services
already exist in Europe.

~~~
vkou
Anecdotally, none of my co-workers use Lyft in Seattle because "There's always
an Uber 2 minutes away."

The network lock-in is quite real - if you can't get a critical mass of cars
on the road, you can't get customers, and you can't get a critical mass of
cars on the road without having customers paying fares.

What can really hurt Uber is unionization of their drivers - since nothing
stops them from collectively switching to a competing service.

~~~
amelius
Well, here's a story of French drivers unionizing AND starting a competitor
service: [1]

[1] [http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/3/9841562/french-uber-
driver...](http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/3/9841562/french-uber-drivers-
launch-app-vtc-cab)

------
Hydraulix989
That's a shame. When I rode in cabs in Taiwan, I'd get ripped off because I
was a foreigner. Uber had consistently better cars and was cheaper too

~~~
xiaoma
Highly doubtful. In seven years and over a thousand cab rides in Taiwan that
never happened to me. One one occasion my wallet fell out and the driver even
called me to give it back.

Ripping off the foreigner is more of a mainland China thing.

~~~
Hydraulix989
Actually, I had no problems at all in Shanghai with the cabs (aside from their
ostensibly "crazy" driving).

Anyway, since I'm not going to provide proof, you don't have to believe me.

------
studentrob
I live in the south of Taiwan and uber just became available here over the
weekend.

Taxi service is already good if you speak Chinese. You can call a taxi
automated system, give them a street corner, and they will give you a time
estimate. It is usually 3 minutes and they show up on time.

The benefit uber provides is to foreigners. If you do not speak Chinese, then
you previously needed to flag down a cab.

~~~
randyrand
Also, there is no negative for a Taiwanese to have more options.

~~~
studentrob
Maybe. Like I said the service is already good.

------
ilamont
There are a few local factors that change the dynamics of app-based ride
services in Taiwan. They include a solid public transportation infrastructure
in Taipei, widespread scooter use (I estimate at least 20% of the population
owns or has access to scooters), and relatively low-cost taxi rates.

On the last point, a 45-minute cab ride from eastern Taipei to the
international airport cost NT$1200, or about $36, and if you call a private
limo service by phone it's NT$1000 for a big van, probably less for a car. By
comparison, rates from Boston' airport are about $60 for a 30 minute ride and
$40 for an Uber.

FWIW, I found Uber cars to be somewhat rare in Taipei and nonexistent in
Chiayi, a smaller city in the south that I visited earlier this month. That
could be the crackdown mentioned in the article, but I suspect the demand
isn't sufficient owing to the factors mentioned earlier.

~~~
xiaoma
Access to scooters is more like 85%. It's probably lowest in Taipei but still
the vast majority of people if you rule out children and the very old.

------
aurizon
In Toronto, Canada, taxis run 24/7 with 2 shifts of drivers. Insurance costs
about $10,000 annually, more or less. On a per hour basis that = $1.14 per
hour. Uber should obtain insurance on their driver fleet on that basis

~~~
vertex-four
That would likely involve Uber admitting that their drivers are not, in fact,
self-employed.

~~~
aurizon
Well, Taxi drivers are self employed

------
Gratsby
Taiwan number one!

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jheriko
isn't uber already on shaky legal footing nearly everywhere anyway?

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talloaktrees
Taiwan's rule of law is mostly about connections, money and shady backroom
deals (sure, most countries are like this, but it's a matter of degree). I'm
sure this has come about because of taxi companies being unhappy rather than
any proper legal reasoning.

~~~
audreyt
The process leading to this was documented here: [https://blog.pol.is/vtaiwan-
uberx/](https://blog.pol.is/vtaiwan-uberx/) Registration was cited as one of
the six consensus items by the e-deliberation process, and so far the only one
that Uber has not yet assented to.

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nstj
Huge fines

> According to the Highway Act, Uber has been fined NT$100,000 (approximately
> US$3,070) to NT$150,000 (approximately US$4,605). Uber drivers have been
> fined NT$50,000 (approximately US$1,535).

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runholm
For once an article translated by Bing without grammar errors all over the
place.

