
Volvo recalls 59,000 cars over software fault - temp
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35622753
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superuser2
Why don't any of the luxury car brands (other than Lexus) focus on
reliability? It seems so strange that the market is willing to pay ~$40-$80k
for a car totally indifferent to its engineering quality. If I were to own a
luxury car, I'd want to know its engineering is rock-solid first and foremost.
I'd want to be proud of it _as a machine_ not just a symbol. Maybe that's just
a techie thing, though.

Volvo has been notorious for extremely difficult-to-diagnose and expensive-to-
repair electrical system problems for at least a decade.

~~~
corin_
Where is Volvo considered a luxury car brand? Here in the UK I don't know
anyone who would call it that.

~~~
alex_anglin
In North America Volvo has definitely evolved in to a luxury car brand, if
just by the prices of their cars.

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hyperpallium
I have a theory that software is so hard, that internet startups win simply
because they can actually do software, and thereby obtain its benefits.

It's not that the start ups have such disruptive business models; but simply
that software is great, and incumbents can't do it.

Web startups are good at software because that's what they focus on, and are
selected for. So we're in this strange situation where getting software to do
it is more important than doing it. It's the flexibility.

I'm afraid even my anecdatum is scanty: taxi calling is terrible. Uber could
only be better.

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k-mcgrady
>> ">> The glitch had been reported by drivers of new Volvos who said the
engine could cut out without warning, creating a brief absence of steering and
braking."

Do they just mean the power steering cuts out and brakes lose hydraulics?
Because there's a pretty huge difference between that and 'a brief absence of
steering and braking'.

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grogers
My power steering went out once. The car was drivable, but just barely.
Likewise if you've ever pumped the brakes while the engine is off, you know
that braking power drops to almost nothing.

If that happened suddenly on the road 'loss of steering and brakes' is exactly
how I would describe it. Sure it might not be completely accurate, but it is
definitely a dangerous situation whatever you call it.

~~~
jacobreg
Eh, my car has a finicky engine and I've learned that it's perfectly drivable
without power steering or brakes. I've lost power while taking tight turns,
and while it was a bit surprising the first time or two I had no trouble
keeping it under control. Unless the driver has significantly less strength
than the average person, or is unwilling to drop whatever might be in their
off hand to get it too the wheel, I'd say it's more scary than dangerous.

That being said, I certainly wouldn't be happy if my new volvo did that; they
should definitely be held to higher standards than my $500 beater.

~~~
Tiksi
Newer cars generally have a much lower steering ratio (forgot the actual term
for it) so steering without the power assist is a lot more difficult since
turning the wheel fully in one direction might be only 1 full rotation of the
wheel on a newer car vs 3-4 on an older one. Newer cars are also generally
heavier making it even more difficult to steer.

~~~
jacobreg
How new are you defining newer to be? My car is a '96 mazda 626. I have driven
around a '68 volvo, with no power steering and that definitely was much easier
than my car when the engine dies. Has typical steering setup changed that much
since '96? (Legitimately asking the question here, not trying to be
rhetorical) Cars have definitely gotten heavier as you say, and volvos have
always been on the heavier side.

~~~
Tiksi
A 96 626 is on the older side as far as steering goes, and from what I recall
driving that generation 626 it has a lower/looser steering ratio than most
cars these days, though I can't seem to find any numbers with a quick search.

As far as how much steering systems have changed, many are still more or less
the same variable ratio rack and pinion systems, but most have moved to
electronic steering assist instead of hydraulic, which allows for a higher
steering ratio since you can adjust the strength of the assist on the fly (to
have more control/less of an assist at higher speeds and with the wheel
centered but a stronger assist when slower and turning the wheel) so low
ratios aren't needed to keep the wheel easily turnable at low speeds. On top
of that some cars are going full on steer by wire now, though not many due to
the understandable reliability issues.

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swiley
Critical firmware must be open source and public by law. Especially as it
continues to take over more control of things like cars.

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FreedomToCreate
With cars essentially becoming computers that hold your life in there hands,
its going to be interesting seeing how software development strategies evolve
to build software rapidly but without the fall back of knowing you can simply
send out a large firmware update to fix an issue. Cars can't afford to be
stuck parked because someone made a small coding issue that got pushed before
it was caught.

~~~
knappe
The space industry has been doing this for decades. NASA published 'The Power
of Ten' with some guidelines.

[http://pixelscommander.com/wp-
content/uploads/2014/12/P10.pd...](http://pixelscommander.com/wp-
content/uploads/2014/12/P10.pdf)

This was published _20_ years ago. [http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-
write-right-stuff](http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff)

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Animats
Jeep had a very similar recall. I have a 2007 Jeep Wrangler, the first year of
the major redesign. This was the first Wrangler with modern electronics,
including stability control. In the first year, there were three recalls for
software updates.

The worst one was a tendency for the system to crash while going uphill at
slow speed in hot weather. The crash caused the engine to quit and restart,
the dashboard would blank, light up for self-test, and reset, the transmission
would downshift, and the CD player would stop. However, everything did recover
within one second. That sounds very similar to Volvo's problem.

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benaston
I'd double check the emissions readings before and after this "bug fix".

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mstade
I've rented a Volvo V70 for the weekend that sounds like it's just the model
that they're recalling. So far, no issues, and given the ice patches on the
road today I'd hope it stays that way. It's a pretty cool car otherwise, lots
of nifty features to make driving easier and safer, like adaptive cruise
control, lane warnings, dead angle warnings, automatic break (at low speeds)
when detecting obstacles, like a car suddenly stopping ahead. If this thing
would steer by itself I wouldn't have to do anything – if this is the way of
the future then sign me up!

~~~
mstade
Update: I'm still alive, and the car returned. Never had an issue, so I guess
the model wasn't affected or its not easily reproduced in the kind of casual
cross country driving I did.

Regardless – great car, 10/10 would rent again.

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andreif
We had a similar issue about half a year ago while driving 2016 XC60 D4 (i.e.
4 cylinders) on a highway. I guess they'll have more cars to recall.

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augustl
The D4 actually have 5 cylinders. All the DX motors on the XC60 has, the
difference is in the cc.

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pmarreck
I'm sure the dealers are excited as hell about this (and non-software-
updatable-over-the-air cars in general)

~~~
newjersey
At least one of the configurations of the 2012 Ford Focus/Fiesta transmission
had issues. The mechanic at the dealer agreed it was a problem. Ford never
acknowledged their fault as far as I know. A firmware update about a year
later seemingly fixed the issue. Why wouldn't they acknowledge the issue and
tell people they're working on it? Liability issue?

~~~
nommm-nommm
>Ford never acknowledged their fault as far as I know.

Yes they did, they sent letters out and and they extended the warranty on the
transmission. Twice.

[http://www.mcall.com/news/local/watchdog/mc-ford-fiesta-
tran...](http://www.mcall.com/news/local/watchdog/mc-ford-fiesta-transmission-
lemon-law-watchdog-20150506-column.html)

"Ford has acknowledged the potential for transmission problems in letters to
owners and dealers. It has extended the warranty but has not recalled the
vehicle."

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y04nn
Is there any coding standards like in aviation (DO-178) for cars?

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reportingsjr
Yes. Check out MISRA:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Industry_Software_Reliab...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Industry_Software_Reliability_Association)

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cmurf
Buy used. If you have a healthy budget, give it to a shop for an
overhaul/rebuild, new upholstery, paint, etc. That'll still cost less than
new, and no computer b.s.

~~~
mikeash
No computer BS, and none of the safety improvements made in the intervening
time.

I don't understand why some people say that they prefer older cars because
they're afraid the computers in newer ones will get them killed. Cars are
overall much safer. Buy your older car, and sure, the computers won't kill
you, but if and when you do crash it may well kill you where you could have
walked away from it in a newer car.

~~~
cmurf
I'm not afraid the computer will get me killed. I'm also not afraid other
drivers are going to get me killed. I agree the cars a much safer than 30
years ago. By older car I'm thinking something 15 years old or newer, so they
still have computers in them, they still have most modern safety features, but
they don't have full blown OS's with the most craptastic manufacturer
proprietary UI's known to man that never get updated and never will be
updated.

~~~
mikeash
OK, given the context of a safety recall I thought you were making a statement
about safety.

~~~
cmurf
The safety potential, I recognize. In this case it's an inconvenience. And
this transitional period we're in right now where cars can have major bugs
like this, but still aren't autonomous (probably a good thing, in the context
of this particular flaw) is something I personally don't want to be involved
in. I understand the process won't be free of flaws, and good that Volvo isn't
downplaying or hiding the issue. When the software is mature enough that it's
not needing constant updates, and we're not concerned about needing an SLA for
10 or 20 or 30 years to keep car computers secure... OK fuck, I'm screwed it's
going to be a long time before I can get a new car.

~~~
mikeash
The inconvenience seems pretty small compared to the inconvenience of
maintaining an old car. Required updates at the dealer aren't exactly common,
and in day-to-day use you can mostly ignore the systems if you don't want to
use them.

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tonyferguson742
How is this possible? How can such a massive car company make a mistake like
this ..

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tehlike
Surprising that OTA is not gaining adoption in the automative industry.

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kmeanscluster
volvo pls

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rogeryu
>> The glitch had been reported by drivers of new Volvos who said the engine
could cut out without warning, creating a brief absence of steering and
braking.

Created by Volvo - who wants to be death proof by 2020...

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3409102/Volvo...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3409102/Volvo-
promises-DEATHPROOF-cars-2020-Company-says-s-confident-technology-eradicate-
fatal-crashes.html)

~~~
Avshalom
Yes, that why they are recalling it.

