
Launch HN: Boxouse (YC W17) – Shipping-container homes - liseman
Hi HN! We&#x27;re Luke and Heather, founders of boxouse: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;boxouse.com" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;boxouse.com</a>. We build portable, beautiful(ish), affordable smart homes out of used shipping containers in our West Oakland factory. This began out of our frustration with paying high rent for crappy apartments: we started thinking about our monthly rent in terms of how many shipping containers we could buy (2 per month!). We&#x27;re particularly interested in using containers as a tool to increase density and affordability; among other things, we&#x27;re going to deploy containers to people&#x27;s yards for free, sharing the rent revenue with them. We do all the construction ourselves; more than happy to dig into technical details!
======
KaiserPro
A couple of points, Photos:

Hire a decent photographer, large sensor, low f number. You'd be surprised
what a good camera with a competent person running it will do. Go wide angle.

Your unique selling point should be the thought you put into the layout.
Anyone can insulate and sling in some furniture, the real hard part is making
the space lovable/liveable. Choose a theme or period, industrial is a good
start. You have bamboo flooring, why not use it for the fittings?

o Put beading/moulding around the windows. Its simple and cheap.

o Match the doors and frames to the plywood/cladding

o Change the electrical outlets to metal, anything other than the stock white

o Use industrial light cases, it'll match the industrial look better

o Make sure the stuff you install is straight, and neat, the bed slats are
wonky!

o The bamboo flooring looks great make use of it more!

o when taking the photos, think about where the light is coming from, make
sure its streaming through the windows making the place look bright

Also, don't give up...

~~~
liseman
Great ideas, thanks! We've been through 4 different attempts at photos, and
results are obviously lacking... do any of you have sources you really like
for outlet covers, light cases, and other fixture / finish elements?

~~~
aresant
I think this guy
[http://vantagepointphoto.com/#slide5](http://vantagepointphoto.com/#slide5)
is one of the best in Northern California - great grasp of lighting and space,
probably charges commiserate with scale / quality of his portfolio.

This guy has very solid ratings locally, nice portfolio, and worth hitting too
- [http://www.dannyosterweil.com/about/](http://www.dannyosterweil.com/about/)
\- I think he's probably within a few miles of you guys.

~~~
liseman
This is great; I'll reach out to both of them today. Thanks!

------
researcher11
Guys; I like the idea but your prices are too high. You're in the decent
trailer price range.

The big advantage of a shipping container is the ability to cheaply ship it.
Once you cut into it you can't ship it anymore. It's not a great use of
recycled material as it uses way too much steel for a dwelling.

I'm actually in the market for a shippable shipping container house. Similar
to
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sPgjndFqqwY](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sPgjndFqqwY)
. He gives the quote of $50K including high quality fittings and market price
labor. I will probably build one myself then ship it to where I need it. I'm
an expat and I historically move countries every year or so. If you were to
build a clone of this I would buy it.

Another benefit of shippable shipping container homes is you can service
customers anywhere around the globe! Not just SF.

~~~
kevin488
At those price points these posh studio sheds become competitive

[https://www.studio-shed.com/](https://www.studio-shed.com/)

~~~
seanp2k2
The problem with all of these seems to be: where could you actually live in
one in any city or suburban area? I don't reckon you can just buy a small plot
of land on a residential street in San Jose and plop this down, hook up
utilities, pave a driveway, and live in it. I doubt any homeowners here would
want it next to them. I've never seen it done in the Bay Area. Is it possible?

~~~
tgragnato
The idea is beautiful, living "in a box" is sure something complex because of
the regulations.

But I remember very pleasantly a holiday in one of these prefabricated (in
Sweden): with a good (big and serious) design work and targeting the
recreation market they could even raise prices.

An example: [[http://www.vipp.com/en/shelter/the-vipp-shelter/the-vipp-
she...](http://www.vipp.com/en/shelter/the-vipp-shelter/the-vipp-shelter/)] -
[[https://youtu.be/LCyN1hxQtdA](https://youtu.be/LCyN1hxQtdA)]

> I doubt any homeowners here would want it next to them.

IMHO it all boils down to your product: if you're selling a high quality tiny
home / shelter / box, then I definitely want one of those next to me.

------
Animats
If you want a metal building, Butler Buildings has all the parts to make
one.[1] Rural America has hundreds of thousands of their prefab structures.
They sell prebuilt wall sections with insulation, and wall sections with
windows and doors. Putting one together is far easier than slicing through a
shipping container, and you can vary the dimensions. The industrial look has
been unpopular, and they're seldom used as houses.

There's General Steel Buildings, which makes steel house kits.[2] They're not
popular, but they are available. For a little extra, you can get fake brick to
hide the steel exterior.

You can get some nice prefab houses for well under the $29K these people want
for a modified 150 square foot shipping container. In mobile homes, $29K gets
you a 16 foot wide unit with 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, 14 foot square living room,
kitchen, A/C, and appliances, installed.[3]

Siting is the problem, not manufacturing cost.

[1] [http://butlermfg.com](http://butlermfg.com) [2]
[https://gensteel.com/steel-building-kits/houses](https://gensteel.com/steel-
building-kits/houses) [3]
[http://www.montysheavybuilthomes.com/index.php?pageID=14676_...](http://www.montysheavybuilthomes.com/index.php?pageID=14676_2)

------
n-exploit
I love the idea, but as-is, I think your product could more attractive if you
hired an interior designer to help with the sample pictures/overall product
"image".

Attractive product, unattractive design. There's nothing there to make me want
your product over another company doing the same thing with more emphasis on
design.

~~~
liseman
Here's some photos of work in progress:
[https://goo.gl/photos/N6jiAo9696QJG6KU8](https://goo.gl/photos/N6jiAo9696QJG6KU8)

~~~
n-exploit
Honestly, there is still nothing here that compels me to buy your product. Who
is your target audience? What's your appeal? What makes your product special?

I am a mid-twenties millennial looking for a starter home (considering a
container home) and I'm not really seeing something I want.

~~~
conductr
I've followed this space for years now. The problem I see is, at these prices,
someone like n-exploit can hire a custom builder to do it exactly to their
tastes/layout.

I'm not seeing what benefit do you add to the existing ecosystem?

~~~
liseman
I will be absolutely stunned if you can get a tiny home custom-built with a
solar system half this size for less than 80k.

~~~
conductr
The Deluxe priced at $49k is very basic finish that could be replicated for
$30k max, potentially much cheaper. So does a 1kW solar system bridge the
price gap? Not even close

The reason you anchor on that 80k number is because custom building usually
has a lot extra. Better quality. High cost materials. More carpentry. This is
basically a plywood box and a solar system. And a solar system of this size is
only a few grand installed.

------
howderek
These prices seem too high. Low-end mobile homes are around the same price,
are larger, offer nicer interiors, and face fewer legal complexities. I also
know tiny home builders who can custom build homes with similar square footage
as these for around the same price. I live in Missouri so housing is cheap,
but isn't the advantage of pre-fab homes the ability to ship them for a much
lower cost than building on-site?

I don't see how this could scale past cities where rent is insane and have
housing regulations that allow this kind of home.

What is the advantage of this versus other pre-fabricated homes? What
justifies the price?

~~~
liseman
We'll make it clearer on the website, but the 49k version includes a 1.5kw
solar array, ~15kwh of battery storage, all water systems, full smart home
functionality (ie 'alexa, trigger windows' to go from transparent to opaque),
and furnishings down to the utensils. Our 9k barebones model is closer to how
most mobile homes I've seen are outfitted (but with better insulation and
design in a boxouse); looks like these average over 60k new:
[http://www.dailyyonder.com/manufactured-housing-sales-
bounce...](http://www.dailyyonder.com/manufactured-housing-sales-bounce-
back/2015/01/26/7695/) . am i missing something?

~~~
elmar
Hi Luke, Thanks for taking the time to talk with us and your efforts on
tackling the housing problems.

One question, is the main focus of the business to manufacture and sell the
Box houses or offer then for renting with AirBnB or similar sites? If the
latter do you have some planed strategy to lower the high CAPEX needed for
scaling?

~~~
liseman
Both, balancing the capex needs for the latter via sales as I scale:)

------
abakker
How to you ameliorate the toxins inherent in shipping containers? Typically,
those paints and pressure treated woods are not used indoors, and I would be
worried about some of the chemicals? Second, in the climate here, how do you
avoid mold? Metal is a prime target for condensation, and in the bay we are
always around the dew point. If you insulate the walls, how do you avoid mold
growth (maybe put insulation on the outside)? How about power/gas supply,
HVAC, waste plumbing etc? How about moving it? Leveling it? it seems that
they'll be substantially heavier than most mobile homes, so trailering with
consumer vehicles will be hard, which makes them hard to deliver.

I've been in shipping container buildings before (e.g. Frietag store in
Zurich) - they are not really a great size. Many Mobile homes that are
comfortable feature pop-out sides. Any plans for expanding them?

Some real positives - fireproof envelope, Envelope can be welded to, several
formats available - including ones with side doors can be "racked" can be made
airtight (allows you to specify air exchanges, rather than estimate them)
portability with the right equipment.

~~~
liseman
The interior environment gets entirely sealed under closed-cell foam
insulation applied directly to the metal, leaving no interior space for
condensation on the metal. Literally all surfaces that you're exposed to are
things we buy at home improvement stores: bamboo flooring, cabinet-grade
plywood, etc. A big part of the 'deluxe' cost is the elaborate solar system:
we're able to cook, heat space + water, etc. all off of the solar array +
batteries. We're thinking about possibilities for pop-outs in the future.

~~~
abakker
Please see: [http://www.archdaily.com/160892/the-pros-and-cons-of-
cargo-c...](http://www.archdaily.com/160892/the-pros-and-cons-of-cargo-
container-architecture/)

"For instance, the coatings used to make the containers durable for ocean
transport also happen to contain a number of harmful chemicals, such as
chromate, phosphorous, and lead-based paints. Moreover, wood floors that line
the majority of shipping container buildings are infused with hazardous
chemical pesticides like arsenic and chromium to keep pests away."

and

"Reusing Containers seems to be a low energy alternative, however, few people
factor in the amount of energy required to make the box habitable. The entire
structure needs to be sandblasted bare, floors need to be replaced, and
openings need to be cut with a torch or fireman’s saw. The average container
eventually produces nearly a thousand pounds of hazardous waste before it can
be used as a structure."

~~~
patcheudor
This! I've looked seriously into making a large shipping crate home by slowly
accumulating them for storage and whatnot at my farm. Ultimately, after
learning about the hazardous materials used in many, I gave up. Besides the
points mentioned by abakker, one of the things that really got to me was the
'mystery box' aspect. Simply put, you don't know what they carried or what got
spilled inside. Was it carrying pesticides? Did a bunch of compact florescence
break inside in a storm releasing mercury into the container? There have even
been reports of shipping containers which are radioactive above background
levels, presumably from spilled nuclear medical waste or shipping something
like Uranium ore. Before you call me nuts:

"About 20 million consignments of all sizes containing radioactive materials
are routinely transported worldwide annually on public roads, railways and
ships."

[http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-
fue...](http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-
cycle/transport-of-nuclear-materials/transport-of-radioactive-materials.aspx)

Note that sprayed on closed cell insulation does little to nothing to mitigate
many of the toxins which can be found in shipping containers including mercury
- it just makes it poisonous for longer. To use them for a dwelling all wood
needs to be removed and they need to be sand or water blasted down to bare
metal.

------
pipio21
I want to give you brutally honest feedback, please do not take it personally.

I looked for something similar in Spain, a house in a rail wagon, something
like this:

[http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_nEZddcafnkk/SAoPN_PCK_I/AAAAAAAAAk...](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_nEZddcafnkk/SAoPN_PCK_I/AAAAAAAAAkE/2illx3HQJ0s/s400/casa-
vagon-tigre.jpg)

[http://vilssa.com/aprovecha-un-vagon-de-tren-para-hacer-
tu-c...](http://vilssa.com/aprovecha-un-vagon-de-tren-para-hacer-tu-casa)

[https://decoracion.trendencias.com/casas/casas-poco-
convenci...](https://decoracion.trendencias.com/casas/casas-poco-
convencionales-vivir-en-un-vagon-de-tren)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXbBXpruaW0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXbBXpruaW0)

Some of them were extremely cheap and simple but they had lots of charm and
taste.

Your houses look totally ugly to me, cold. Humans not allowed kind of feeling.

You probably need to learn some design. Even when people will tell you the
only thing they care is price, it is extremely depressing expending long hours
in an ugly place.

------
lefstathiou
My dad owns a few trailer parks. Great investment but not for the faint of
heart. From our experience, you're not going to want to live in any
neighborhood that allows this kind of housing and as a result, it wont be
available for long in any neighborhood you're trying to address. Many trailer
parks are trashy (literally trash everywhere) with a highly uneducated and
unstable demographic. Its the suburban equivalent of an urban ghetto.
Alcoholism, assault, vandalism are daily occurrences. Some questions to ask
yourself: am I comfortable evicting people on a weekly basis? How many
problematic tenants can my system tolerate before all the software engineers
who have the option to pay high rents for crappy apartments decide safety and
piece of mind are valuable?

Oh and by the way, this type of housing is cheap but not necessarily
inexpensive. A trailer in upstate GA an hour and half away from Atlanta in the
middle of nowhere makes $500 a month. In Oakland, market rates (and all roads
lead to a market rate) will likely get this to $750-800. People are going to
start piling into these things to make the economics work, which will make
them more dangerous, more unstable.

~~~
brudgers
There were (and are) very well maintained mobile home parks. It's more a
matter of market segmentation (e.g. college students or retirees or
vacationers (and hence location)) than the form factor. Ownership pattern also
plays a big role. Resident owned trailer parks are often very well maintained.

For example: [http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/The-
Village...](http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/The-
Villages_FL/type-mfd-mobile-home)

~~~
komali2
I used to live in The Franciscan Park in Colma/Daly City. It barely felt like
a trailer park at all. It was resident-owned trailers, sort of. You had to pay
a fee for the land. Don't know much more about the details, we were renting.

------
ceejayoz
[https://boxouse.com/collections/buy/products/boxouse-
standar...](https://boxouse.com/collections/buy/products/boxouse-standard)

Those photos don't really fit the "sleek finish out" and "premium materials"
description. The tub looks dirty, the bed slats are all wonky, and it looks
overall extremely cheap.

It's certainly not $20k worth of add-ons to the barebones bit
([https://boxouse.com/collections/buy/products/boxouse-
barebon...](https://boxouse.com/collections/buy/products/boxouse-barebones)).

~~~
ashark
Yeah, this looks less appealing than a single-wide. Since the real value in
these not-mobile-home small housing thingies usually seems to be letting
people live in a mobile home without compromising their sense of where they
sit in the class structure, it needs to at least have a _veneer_ of "superb
craftsmanship" or whatever.

~~~
throwanem
It really does. Based on these photos, I'd _rather_ live in a single-wide, and
I know from experience exactly how shoddy those are.

------
rootedbox
Not trying to be a hater. I understand what is pictured may be prototypes.. if
they are you shouldn't be showing them unless you have that caveat in the
picture. Both the design is poor, and the craftsmanship is low. If this is
past the prototype stage, and this is what you will actually be selling. Then
you really don't understand the pre-fab space nor the price points of the pre-
fab space.

~~~
liseman
thanks for the feedback. what are the most compelling prefabs you've found
that are actually shipping, and how much do they cost?

~~~
sarcher
Prefab is a loaded term - unfortunately, depending on people's experiences, it
can be loaded in very different ways.

At YC, there's Acre (Pacific NW, California, Colorado):
[http://www.acredesigns.com/](http://www.acredesigns.com/)

I work with BrightBuilt (New England originally, now shipping in the mid-
Atlantic as well): [http://brightbuilthome.com/](http://brightbuilthome.com/)

Up here in Maine we also have Ecocor, which is a panel product:
[https://www.ecocor.us/](https://www.ecocor.us/)

I think those are a couple of good prefab examples, although none of them hang
their designs on the shipping container form factor (and I specifically picked
three 'prefab' companies with very different delivery methods). Most prefab
companies I have experience with have gone that way, primarily because the
width constraints of a container aren't great once you get above one or two
modules.

I think the branding (or rebranding) of small homes built on tow-able
platforms as 'tiny homes' was a genius stroke of marketing. If you can do that
with the Boxouse that's some secret sauce, but in the absence of a strong
brand I think the Boxouse units will end up being called 'trailers' as opposed
to 'prefab'.

------
accountface
I know you're trying to keep costs down, but unfinished trim work and/or
exposed plywood (especially on the $9k model) makes everything look incredibly
cheap. Take a look at how similarly-priced RVs handle their interiors for
comparison.

For $29k you can get something that you can drive and is generally furnished
better (in a lot of municipalities these tiny houses need to be on wheels to
skirt code violations anyway).

------
shriphani
There was a shipping container home on Grand Designs (what a show!) that
looked absolutely breathtaking:
[http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/09/24/1411571780563_wps_...](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/09/24/1411571780563_wps_39_UNP_CH4_32376_Grand_Desig.jpg)

I think a bit of sprucing up (with wood and a sound paint-job) would go a long
way to remove that whiff of trailer park that I get from your landing page.

~~~
Exuma
Do you have a link to more photos of that house?

~~~
shriphani
I believe this is the part of the episode where they discuss the finished
building: [https://vimeo.com/147232218](https://vimeo.com/147232218)

------
SandersAK
Imagine spending $49,000 on this boxhouse, and then seeing this 72 airstream
go for $35k:
[https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/tro/6036307617.html](https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/tro/6036307617.html)

~~~
hoozter
Well, imagine spending $49,000 on a shipping-container house.

------
cbr
How are you going to deal with zoning? Generally the big problem with tiny
houses is that while they're relatively cheap to make they're not allowed by
existing zoning.

~~~
liseman
IMHO, zoning is is one of the biggest challenges facing anybody who wants to
do something interesting in real estate. CA actually is forcing cities to make
it easier to build ADUs: [http://www.hcd.ca.gov/policy-
research/docs/17Jan30-ADU-TA-Me...](http://www.hcd.ca.gov/policy-
research/docs/17Jan30-ADU-TA-Memo.pdf) . Worst case, we put wheels on them and
have license plates to avoid having to comply with building regulations;)

~~~
komali2
I hate to be that guy but "putting wheels on them" is not a simple solution at
all... it will take a lot more than that to make your cargo containers street-
legal.

------
gfsadhfsd
Out-of-touch SV types discover the single-wide trailer, decide to make crappy
ones from containers and overcharge for them.

You know, Warren Buffet already has that business model and moats don't get a
lot wider than Berkshire Hathaway. He also has his own predatory bank,
insurance companies, real estate brokerage franchise, railroad, and container
manufacturing.

Good luck.

~~~
researcher11
That is interesting. I had no idea. I already had my reasons for not liking
Warren Buffet but this was new to me.

------
zimzam
1\. "Visit Boxouse $40" sounds like you are charging money for tours, which
almost made me leave the site immediately: tweak the copy to say "Stay in a
Boxouse $40" or "Try a Boxouse $40"

2\. Your presentation needs work.

\- Barebones: needs a photo that's less dark, also more than one photo
(including inside and outside) \- Standard: decent photos, looks bright &
clean \- Boxouse Deluxe: despite having some nice details this looks like a
junky piece of crap. The photo quality is the worst of the three, and the
house in the photo is messy and unappealing. The side with the mattress looks
sloppy (is that a deflated air mattress? A sleeping bag over a sagging
mattress? Whatever it is I don't want to even sit on it, much less sleep on
it) and the Ikea-esque drawers with the awkward space between looks unfinished
or dysfunctional. The other side by the metal tub has a trashcan and two
gadgets plugged in... don't know what they are but that whole side just looks
like random junk in the corner of a garage.

The boxouse in the "Visit Boxouse" page is bright, has some design and is
appealing: this is what a deluxe one should look like, not the sloppy thing
you have there now.

3\. If your business model is to deploy them to people's houses for free and
split rent revenue, why is your website geared around individual sales?

------
oomkiller
Before you make any of these you need to make sure you're complying with
various fire-related regulations and testing against ASTM standards. We ran
into this issue at a startup doing something similar about a year back, and
it's one of the things that led to its downfall. From the looks of it, you've
built a tinder box. Wood paneling, backed by insulating foam, which is likely
quite flammable. All wrapped up in a metal container.

------
cpeterso
The boxouse.com website is quite frustrating. I scrolled down the page to view
the pictures of the houses, but when each picture scrolls into view, it is
obscured by a white overlay?! Readers must click each picture to view it on a
new page.

~~~
throwanem
I was about to raise the same issue. Not really a satisfactory UX when the
photos that might give me some idea of what I'm looking at are obscured
whenever they're in the browser viewport.

------
arikr
While on the topic, does anyone else know of other cool things like this? Cool
space. e.g. [http://www.blokable.com/](http://www.blokable.com/)

~~~
liseman
More oriented to multi-unit, permanent builds:
[https://www.montainerhomes.com/](https://www.montainerhomes.com/) High-end,
semi-stackable: [http://kasita.com](http://kasita.com) My favorite ultra-low-
cost builder:
[http://relaxshacks.blogspot.com/](http://relaxshacks.blogspot.com/) My
favorite youtuber for sustainability broadly, with a focus on housing:
[https://www.youtube.com/user/kirstendirksen](https://www.youtube.com/user/kirstendirksen)

~~~
auganov
+1 for
[https://www.youtube.com/user/kirstendirksen](https://www.youtube.com/user/kirstendirksen)

An amazing channel. My first thought about Boxhouse was, if I've ever seen you
on there! You should totally make an appearance.

~~~
liseman
Kirsten's visited us a couple of times:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfqunEuw61k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfqunEuw61k)

------
johan_larson
How does the legal side of this work? Do these houses meet the requirements of
major construction codes, or are they somehow exempt? Also, aren't there
typically restrictions on where units like this can be deployed? There have
been all sorts of fights about granny-flats over the years.

------
jtraffic
Man, it's been 23 hours since this was posted, and lots of negative feedback.
With that intro, you might expect me to be different, but sadly, I'm not.

If you haven't read the graphic novel about Honest Tea, I recommend it. One
thing made an impression on me: you can't sell sustainable organic tea if it
tastes bad.

This was born, as you say, out of "frustration with paying high rent for
crappy apartments." It seems your 1st attempt at solving this frustration is
to charge a high price for crappy containers.

People have become strongly accustomed to excellent design, and so what used
to be passable is now off-putting.

The core problem is that there is nothing about what you're doing that
provides credible justification that your approach is a real advance. The
trial program ain't it, neither is the rent-sharing. You need something more
surpising. What would be compelling enough to tempt a claustrophobic person
like me to buy a Boxouse? Nothing I've seen yet.

What about building a little hotel out of stacked Boxouses? I'd be more apt to
try it if it came with all the amenities of a normal hotel, and gave the
perception that lots of people stay there. (Yeah, I know, I'm a follower,
whatever.)

You obviously have something going for you if YC took you, but whatever
appealed to YC does not come through on the website. I hope things turn up for
you guys (sincerely).

------
bsquared
Getting people excited about living smaller is a big task! (sorry, couldn't
help myself) My friend started a tiny home company[0] and I've spoken with him
a lot about this space. I think there are a couple of major obstacles to mass
tiny home adoption and it seems like your home doesn't solve many of them
currently. To start:

1\. Legality - Most tiny homes aren't legal to put on a slab or connect to
utilities in jurisdictions around the US. This is getting better over time
with people lobbying to allow smaller homes as "accessory dwelling units".

2\. People don't want to feel like they're downgrading - looking at your
pictures, Boxouse looks pretty low quality, similar to a hostel or dorm room.
While that may appeal to some, most consumers wouldn't choose to live or stay
in a home like that. Instead, I think tiny home builders need to concentrate
on making more beautiful and functional spaces.

I'd love to chat more with Boxouse (or anyone) about tiny homes and/or connect
you with my friend's company. You can find my email in my profile.

[0] [https://boxedhaus.com](https://boxedhaus.com)

------
artem_dev
Well.. all of this reminds me temporary houses used by builders in
Ukraine\Russia and other CIS countries (most probably other countries use this
as well). For example,
[https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&sour...](https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1093&bih=469&q=%D0%B1%D1%8B%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0&oq=%D0%B1%D1%8B%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0&gs_l=img.3..0j0i30k1l9.4428.6190.0.6713.7.6.0.1.1.0.212.739.2j3j1.6.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.7.743.hSxvD4XHNCM#hl=en&tbm=isch&q=%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F+%D0%B1%D1%8B%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0&*)
as you can see sometimes such "buildings" even have two or more floors. Not
sure how they comfortable to live though.

------
salimmadjd
I love the vision and audacity to tackle this rent problem.

That said, help me understand who your GTM target is.

1 - Is it basically SV, young tech guys who want a cheaper and a unique place
to live? This is what I'm taking away reading your post. 2 - Is it
migratory/seasonal workers who work on a farms during harvest season? 3 - Is
it people who want to live off-grid, and plan on buying a lot and just want to
drop a house there for cheap?

Some of my initial thoughts:

A - As someone commented, the images don't really connect to any of the
segments above. I can see the photographer is going for a certain magazine
look. But it doesn't do a real good job of telling a story about these units
and your target market.

B - Again as others have commented on regulatory issues both for fire safety
and also city regulations. That last part might cause issues with your
original vision of lower rent alternatives.

C - Financial model. It seems to me if you are going the rent-share service
route and you'll need to put down $40-50K for each unit, you will need a lot
of capital as you scale. I'm guessing it will take 3-5 years to recover the
cost of each unit (rent-dependent). Which creates a lot of challenges, unless
you setup some kind of a partnership scheme. Either individual partners, who
will put the money down to help renters finance this as part of revenue share
scheme. Or large banking institution who will help underwrite each units.

D - Pricing. As others have pointed out, the pricing once you get to $50k is
close to a decent used RV house. And the interiors don't look that great. I'm
curious what the cost will be once you put some type of economics of scales
into this. Given all the dimensions are set. Can't you just have a shop in
China produce all these parts? Is there an opportunity to partner with Lowes
or some large retailer who buys in bulk?

Good luck! I'm very impressed you guys have taken it this far and hope it'll
succeed.

------
rajacombinator
Some feedback: if you have to append (ish) to call them beautiful, they're
probably not beautiful. The photos make them look very shoddy, something put
together as a weekend project by amateurs. I don't know much about this
"space" (hipsters who want to live in shipping containers I'm guessing...) but
I'd be surprised if these are competitive. I could be totally wrong though! I
once visited a hipster enclave that was basically a bunch of containers
slapped together into a 6 unit Airbnb operation so there is defintely some
demand.

On a more general note, this is not really a positive solution to the housing
crisis which would be repealing nimby laws and the fed stopping pumping up
asset prices. But best of luck.

------
tejohnso
How would I hook up toilet, sink, electrical, cable (for internet)?

What kind of foundation do you recommend?

Does "deploy containers to yards for free" mean shipping is free? To any
state? What rent revenue are you talking about? I can't just put one of these
in my backyard and rent it out because of zoning and neighbourhood bylaws.

Why is square footage not mentioned anywhere? Usually a primary concern for
any housing consideration.

If there's insulation included in the bare bones kit why is it not shown in
the photo? Any why is it so dark? Are you trying to scare people away from
that option?

You should have a photo of one of these set up in a nicely landscaped yard
with a great entrance path and a beautiful exterior.

------
beaconstudios
I really don't understand the appeal of this. Are people really so desperate
to live in an expensive city that they'd be willing to live in a box?

Also, how do you plan to get away from the image of metal box houses being
tied to shanty-towns and favelas?

~~~
i_am_andy
Yes I suspect they are. Rents are incredibly high in major cities. Having seen
the size (&cost) of the rooms available for rent in london these containers
look quite reasonable.

In the west we don't have favelas so while I think it would be a down-point, I
don't think there would be such a strong negative connotation.

~~~
beaconstudios
we don't, but the image of favelas is pretty pervasive in popular culture eg
movies.

------
geesejuggler
Please take a look at [http://tinyhousetalk.com](http://tinyhousetalk.com) A
collection of tiny houses. Some of these tiny houses are very pleasing to the
eyes. :)

------
billmalarky
I was under the impression zoning regulation, not construction costs, was the
main challenge for development in urban areas.

Can you seriously just drop these off in people's backyards and legally rent
them out?

~~~
brudgers
There's more than local zoning at play. There are health regulations regarding
potable water and sanitary waste disposal for dwellings that occur at the
state level. There's ADA and FHA at the Federal Level.

Also at the local level are things like occupational taxes and building
permits. Unlike room and whole house rental, a container provides direct
visible evidence of the activity from the air, over a neighbor's fence, or
sometimes from the street.

~~~
abakker
Short summation: No way. Living in shipping containers is not a great idea. By
the time you overcome all the hurdles, you realize the envelope is smallest
cost of housing development.

~~~
brudgers
It's not so much that it the lowest cost, it is that there are fixed costs
that correlate to 'per dwelling unit'. Some of those are monetary, e.g.
digging a trench for a sanitary sewer is pretty much the same for a tiny house
as a McMansion. But the amount of effort is also mostly constant: getting
permits and other entitlement for a four unit project is not that much less
than getting entitlement for a forty unit project (and forty high end units
are likely to require less work during entitlement than forty low end units
because the high end units tend to be more politically palatable because they
better improve the tax base).

------
dragonwriter
> We're particularly interested in using containers as a tool to increase
> density and affordability; among other things, we're going to deploy
> containers to people's yards for free, sharing the rent revenue with them.

Seems to me that the barrier to people turning their yards into what amounts
to trailer parks or micro-apartment compelexes has always been zoning
regulations, hability regulations, and building codes, not getting the housing
units built or delivered.

------
fudged71
I wonder if you could have a successful partnership with DIRTT to
parametrically design your interiors and automate the construction process.
Check them out: [https://www.dirtt.net/](https://www.dirtt.net/)

Also there has got to be a B2B market for these. I know in the Alberta Oil
Sands there are lots of camps for employees. Maybe you can provide a better
product.

------
ajb
Isn't it noisy when it rains? (It rains a lot here).

~~~
liseman
We use several inches of closed-cell foam insulation interior to the metal. In
addition to an r-value of 15+, you're not hearing much outside:)

~~~
whalesalad
R15 feels a little low? Here in Michigan, for example, the ceiling requires
R49. Walls require at least R20.

~~~
patrickg_zill
For one thing it is a smaller space, easily heated and cooled. Second, closed
cell foam means no air infiltration to suck away your heat.

Walls in houses, assuming stud framed, are insulated to R20 but effective R
value is less due to thermal bridging, air infiltration.

------
brooklynmarket
Great idea, just wondering on cost breakdown.

If you can get a new container for just $2550, why is a bare bones $9K?

Seems one could rack out their own very easily. Just wondering.

[http://www.ebay.com/itm/STORAGE-CONTAINERS-NEW-20-CARGO-
SHIP...](http://www.ebay.com/itm/STORAGE-CONTAINERS-NEW-20-CARGO-SHIPPING-
CONTAINER-/300363323729?hash=item45ef0c9951:m:m4iYR9xnbTz3KZ1Bh4DT9Iw)

~~~
liseman
+insulation, electrical, window, door, flooring, walls, etc.

~~~
ceejayoz
If electrical and flooring are included in the barebones package, you should
say so. They're not currently listed on [https://boxouse.com/products/boxouse-
barebones](https://boxouse.com/products/boxouse-barebones).

------
dluan
I have a friend who tried this and found that he had to take a crane operating
class just so he could move/transport the shipping container.

It's kind of cool to think that you could live anywhere in the world that has
an open port, but how the heck do you get it off a boat in Chile or Ireland
the same that's cheap and freeing?

~~~
hastewart39
A few years ago we shipped a fab shop complete with a plasma cnc from Texas to
a farm in rural Kenya, the whole process was surprisingly easy and I
discovered that farm life is way more fun with a plasma cnc!

~~~
dluan
It'd be really cool to send around a science lab like this. If you need any
traveling scientists to live in a boxlab for a trial run, let me know.

------
matt_morgan
I would avoid the thing you're doing with the pictures, where you fade them
out to show the overlaid text. People have a tendency to mouse over things
they're looking at ... and then the picture disappears. It's the opposite of
what they want. You have room to put the text alongside or below.

------
aashaykumar92
Did you also consider 3D printing small homes? Seems like it has potential in
the long run. [https://qz.com/924909/apis-cor-can-3d-print-and-entire-
house...](https://qz.com/924909/apis-cor-can-3d-print-and-entire-house-in-
just-one-day/)

------
dangerboysteve
This is a company that went on Canada's version of Shark Tank (Dargon's Den)
that pitched container living spaces.

[https://www.3twenty.ca/about/](https://www.3twenty.ca/about/)

------
zactato
Is it legal to live in one of these in Oakland? What are the other practical
costs?

~~~
liseman
Whether parked on the street (my preferred version) or as units in a yard, law
is ambiguous in Oakland. If you're in the area, you're welcome to come visit!

------
austenallred
What do you think happens to pricing at scale?

~~~
liseman
Eventually, we'll make tiny homes as affordable as other factory-built
products: car prices, if not cheaper.

~~~
Matt_stove
How does that work, ad your main component, a shipping container, doesn't
really scale much?

~~~
liseman
At thousands of units per month, we're probably off of shipping containers and
onto something lighter and cheaper:)

~~~
elmar
Building a wood structure with the same size of a container would cost more
than the $2,000 price of the container?

------
vitalus
Where exactly in the Bay Area could these legally be placed? Do the founders
live in the prototypes?

~~~
liseman
We live in ours in Oakland. Legality is a complicated topic in our case, but
variants will qualify as Accessory Dwelling Units under state-level rules

------
brudgers
Does Boxhouse handle acquiring potable water and sanitary sewer on behalf of
the owner?

~~~
liseman
Yes. Depending on the location and length of time the boxouse will be there,
we can do off-grid (tanks monitored and filled/pumped as need, RV-style) or
grid-connected (linked to existing house's plumbing)

~~~
brudgers
Does Boxhouse absorb the costs of permitting and construction for homeowners?
What sort of duration is necessary?

~~~
liseman
We're going to do this selectively: getting the first ADU design fully
licensed in a given MSA is going to be important for us. We'll want to see a
year+ commitment to justify the cost.

------
dmvaldman
Any plans to be able to use these modularly and combine several shipping
containers?

~~~
liseman
for permanent installs, I really like the idea of containers as side supports
to a quonset hut. like this, but with 3-4 containers:
[http://alarconbohm.com/](http://alarconbohm.com/)

------
git-pull
Luke and Heather, I love it. Here are some requests:

\- USB Wall outlets

\- A panel system around the house to keep cords organized

\- More pics

\- Info on how much weight can the bed / tables hold

As for questions, how much does would that Solar power (1kw) on the Boxhouse
Deluxe power? Could it handle a Macbook Pro playing video games, a 4k tv
screen, a heater running 16 hours a day?

~~~
liseman
Thanks; great suggestions. 1kW is more than enough to run all of that, with
the heater being the only questionable element. In Oakland, we're fine with
1kW to keep ambient in-container temp at 65F year-round.

------
ph0rque
Hi Luke! What is your initial market, and what are your scaling plans?

~~~
liseman
Hi Andrew! Initial focus is the Bay Area, where rents are particularly absurd.
Unlike other tiny homes, we can stack these to scale existing locations to
meet demand (with some zoning hurdles, of course)

~~~
blhack
Have you guys looked into providing these for industrial sites or the
military?

------
aj7
There's a two-story shipping container house in Tucson.

------
xbeta
Are you hiring any software engineer? :-p

------
ttam
how come it took so long to "launch"? I recall seeing you working on this in
2015?

~~~
liseman
This was firmly a hobby until a few months ago, at which point I quit my job
to focus on boxouse full-time.

~~~
willholloway
It's very inspiring that you were able to build out an idea like this on a
hobby level and get it into YC.

Don't let the negativity in this thread get you down. You will work out all
the problems listed in this thread, and zoning change is on the horizon all
across the country.

There is a real need for housing like this. Pre-fab housing is a proven model,
my father developed modular home projects starting in the '80s and swears by
them.

If you ever have been on a stick built job site and have gotten to know the
workers well socially, you can see the advantage of indoor, factory precise,
standardized construction that is supervised.

There is a lot of substance abuse, laziness and the contractor relationship
and payment structure very often goes south in home construction.

I think the best decision you could make today is to ditch the shipping
container as the starting point.

Just build them out of wood. It's the cheapest material there is besides some
composites perhaps. You already are building a wood framed wall inside the
metal container. They could still be made the same size, and shipped the same
way.

~~~
sarcher
I agree, building them out of wood will allow much lower frame costs and
greater design control.

------
sly010
Is there a tiny housing bubble?

------
User23
Shantytown.com

------
dogma1138
Can we please stop making the fifth element into a reality?

Humans need space.

~~~
ceejayoz
Humans need space, but it doesn't necessarily need to be in their bedroom and
kitchen. Small houses work just fine when there are recreational options
around - walkable cities like NYC, large properties in the country, etc.

~~~
dogma1138
Keep telling that to yourself the air quality in these shoeboxes alone is a
reason to stay away from them. Homes should be roomy these are not prison
cells or airport sleepover rooms.

~~~
ceejayoz
I suspect air quality's tied a lot more to where you live than the square
footage of the house you've got. (I dunno, maybe you're an edge case and vape
constantly or something...)

As an example, I'll bet this house has better air quality than mine:
[https://s-media-cache-
ak0.pinimg.com/736x/15/a4/8c/15a48c913...](https://s-media-cache-
ak0.pinimg.com/736x/15/a4/8c/15a48c9131330933e92b8cb719073d1c.jpg)

~~~
dogma1138
It's has nothing to do with Vaping it's about air circulation and total
availabile volume, humans exhale 300-500ml of CO2 a minute.

And yes the small cabin in the woods with good air circulation might have
better air quality than a flat in the city.

But wasn't your argument just a minute ago that these tiny homes are for
"walkable" cities?

~~~
ceejayoz
> humans exhale 300-500ml of CO2 a minute

A 20 foot shipping container has something like 39,000,000 to fill, from a
quick Googling of their volume.

> But wasn't your argument just a minute ago that these tiny homes are for
> "walkable" cities?

Sure, if you can't parse the comma and the fact that the walkable cities
portion of that response was to your "Humans need space" claim, not the "a
person in a hotel room-sized house will suffocate from CO2 build-up" claim.

------
arikr
For other people looking for a link like I was:
[https://boxouse.com/](https://boxouse.com/)

~~~
dang
Added. Thanks!

------
xbeta
Are you hiring any SWE ? :-p

