
They Are Us - muddyrivers
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/19/opinion/betraying-ourselves.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&region=CColumn&module=MostEmailed&version=Full&src=me&WT.nav=MostEmailed
======
kcole16
This article makes a great point regarding ISIS aim to turn western nations
against the refugees. I can't even fathom how it feels to be forced from your
home, then be greeted with hostility just about everywhere. It's not hard to
imagine developing the sense of hatred that leads to irrational decisions
(like joining ISIS), especially in the younger refugees.

I have no idea what the solution is, but I think it's clear banning refugees
isn't it. I understand the fear, and I'm as scared as anyone about the
potential for new attacks. Still, we need to unite everyone against ISIS, not
drive new recruits towards them.

------
amalag
So if we want to help persecuted refugees like the Jews were being persecuted
in WWII then it sounds like we should give the highest priority to Christians
and Yezidis who are targeted by ISIL, killed as infidels and sold into
slavery.

~~~
kjdal2001
The vast majority of ISIS's victims are Muslim. Muslims that don't recognize
their Caliphate are infidels (according to them).

~~~
amalag
The vast majority is ISIS's victims are Muslim because the vast majority of
population is Muslim. The vast majority of victims of Nazi crimes were not
Jewish. What is your point?

Christians and Yezidis are killed or slaved outright. Maybe they are asked to
convert. No need to ask them if they will keep their beard or wear a hijab.

Go do some research about how Christian and Yezidi populations are being
destroyed and which communities the slaves are from.

~~~
kjdal2001
ISIS does not ask people to wear a hijab or grow a beard. They execute people
who do not comply.

The fact that Syrian Muslim refuges have the ability to avoid execution by
joining ISIS is no excuse for discriminating against those who do not. Giving
Syrian Christians favorable status is tantamount to stating that ISIS
murdering Christians (who do not accept their authority) is genocidal while
ISIS murdering Muslims who do not join them is some less severe crime. It also
implicitly supports joining ISIS as an acceptable mode of survival for
Muslims.

~~~
amalag
Christians and Yezidis are being targeted and it is being acknowledged as
genocide.

So I say give priority to victims of genocide. Other refugees are not in such
dire circumstances.

------
andrewclunn
The only reason there are so many refugees is because we stuck our noses into
a Syrian civil war and effectively created the space for ISIS to exist. And
we're still bombing Syria even now.

Republicans: "Why are we accepting these refugees from ISIS controlled regions
when the security risk of Islamic terrorism is so clear?"

Democrats: "Compassion above bigotry. These people people are just trying to
escape the civil war and continuous fighting a bombings."

Sane people: "So then why the fuck are we bombing Syria?"

One more issue where only by giving more (to strangers because you're guilted
or intimidated into it) can the government fix the problem that it created.
Keep them out of our country, and get the hell out of theirs.

~~~
amalag
At least there is one congressperson talking some sense and saying this: "CIA
Must Stop Illegal, Counterproductive War to Overthrow Assad"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Q8X60KQ9Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Q8X60KQ9Q)

~~~
ende
With a civilian body count far higher than ISIS's, the Assad regime is surely
the largest producer of terrorists. I wonder if put to a vote on whether the
US should withdraw its support of the rebels, how would most Syrians vote?

------
rtl49
This war is a tragedy of extraordinary proportions. Perhaps more than 300,000
have been killed and nearly 8 million displaced. It's yet another sobering
reminder that all wars are disasters, and should only be undertaken as a
matter of absolute necessity.

What makes things worse is that it does not seem to serve the interest of any
Western nation to accept the refugees this crisis has produced. If any one
nation receives a large number of the displaced, it faces the possibility of a
rapid demographic change which may alter the ideological composition of the
population, or create pockets of unrest. France, with its large, mostly
unassimilated Muslim population that has been blamed for destructive riots, is
considered a cautionary tale on the dangers of "too much tolerance." What can
one do? It doesn't seem Syria will be hospitable for a long time. Things don't
look bright for these very unfortunate people.

------
andyl
Post WW2 refugees didn't have elements that were beheading, torturing, killing
and enslaving. Huge difference.

~~~
jeremysmyth
Are you seriously suggesting that refugees engage in these activities? Or are
you redefining "refugees" to include other people that are somehow in the same
ethnic or demographic class?

For example, after WWII, German people were probably the largest demographic
class of refugees [1], yet German people were probably also the cause of the
greatest amount of deaths by torturing, killing, and enslaving (although they
might come second to the Russians by some measurements; being only _second_
worst does not invalidate my current point). If you argue that it wasn't the
refugees themselves doing the bad things, then you must also take that
argument to the modern-day refugees that you use to compare to those WWII
refugees.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_German...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_\(1944%E2%80%9350\))

~~~
andyl
Absolutely serious that elements of the refugee population belong to groups
that engage in torture/beheading/rape/enslavement. We have no idea how to tell
the good from the bad. Just takes a small number of radicals to cause huge
damage and disruption. Not worth the risk.

~~~
jeremysmyth
_elements of the refugee population belong to groups..._

This is categorically different to your grandparent statement implying by
negation that "refugees[...]have elements that were beheading, torturing,
killing and enslaving".

Group T (terrorists) _might_ intersect with group R (refugees) (suggested by
"elements of [R] belong to groups [T]), but there is no evidence of this and
even if there were it would likely point to a quantity that is well below the
margin of error in sampling. This is an entirely different logical statement
to "elements of [R] do the evil things of group [T]".

You must be clear when you make scaremongering statements that suggest
refugees engage in terrorist activities, because your first statement was
clearly wrong yet emotive and therefore easily spread. This doubles down with
your second statement, particularly when you have zero evidence to support
your restated claim.

~~~
andyl
Some refugees do participate in terrorism! Paris attackers had links to Syria.
Tsarnaev brothers had links to Chechnya. Not worth the risk.

