
Science saved me from pretending to love wine - fanf2
https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/how-science-saved-me-from-pretending-to-love-wine
======
robbrown451
Great article. I share many of the tastes of the author (e.g. "Coffee was
drinkable—in fact, positively delicious—only with milk and sugar" and "I
couldn’t imagine why anyone would eat a radish unless paid") but I don't have
an aversion to wine.

What I have an aversion to is people who want to talk endlessly about wine. Or
people who pretend they'd actually bother with wine in the first place if it
didn't give them a buzz. Or anyone who expects me to spend more than five
bucks a bottle (ok I can go as high as ten if it's a restaurant).

Aside from the whole issue of genetic differences between people and their
fungiform papillae, I think the one line that gets to the heart of why people
get so obsessive about wine is "no other pursuit made him feel farther from
the lower-middle-class neighborhoods of immigrant Brooklyn from which he had
worked so hard to escape".

~~~
sddfd
If you don't know anything about wine, the safest thing is to just go with
what you like. And this means first and foremost ignoring price and prestige
even if you'll be called a philistine.

One thing about wine I really enjoy is that there are so many different tastes
available, and that tastes may vary by year.

If you're still exploring your preferences, I'd recommend to stay below
30€/bottle (reseller price, not restaurant) and try a lot of different ones
(not necessarily on the same evening thought).

~~~
ars
> the safest thing is to just go with what you like.

I have never tasted a wine I liked. Ever. At best some were tolerable. The
sweeter the better.

Dry wines taste absolutely disgusting. Like someone collected filth and put it
in a bottle to trick people (the emperor has no clothes).

I once tried adding sugar to a dry wine to see if I could taste those flavor
notes the bottle said they contained. It helped a bit, but not much.

Like a color blind person not believing color really exists, I have a hard
time believing people that they actually like the stuff.

~~~
justincormack
Some of us don't like sweet things. All the best flavours are sharp or sour.

~~~
morgante
> All the best flavours are sharp or sour.

That's an extremely subjective statement.

~~~
KGIII
The thread is pretty much full of subjective statements, many posed as
universal truths.

My contribution: Blueberry wine is delicious.

------
nightski
It honestly sounds like the author is desensitized to sweetness and dislikes
bitter things in general. It's amazing how cutting out sugar/added sweeteners
in general can greatly increase ones sense of taste. A little sweet can go a
very long way. After a few months without sugar, eating a typical U.S. sweet
treat feels like complete overload.

I've noticed this in a lot of my friends also. The ones that have attempted
cut out sugar have all experienced the same.

Of course she could just dislike wine, which is completely fine. But all of
the other things mentioned lead me to believe this might be a part of it.

~~~
Tade0
After two months of living(in Italy) off spaghetti with tomato sauce and
parmesan cheese I noticed, that ketchup started to taste for me a lot more
like some kind of weird, sweet(too sweet even) BBQ sauce than, well, ketchup.

~~~
obmelvin
I'd imagine you also noticed how sweet most tomato sauce is in the US! I don't
make pizza much at home, but for pasta sauce I always make my own. I can't
stand the store bought sauce.

~~~
hiisukun
You could try Paul Newman's pasta sauce. They're not too sweet, and the
profits go to charity. (I'm not aware of the full detail, but the company has
been around a long time so I give them the benefit of the doubt).

------
mannykannot
Wine is just the McGuffin here - the article is really about bourgeois
insecurity, resolved by the author's redemption through discovering that she
is actually more discriminating than the people whose approval she so
desperately seeks.

~~~
eagle2001
+1

------
RichardCA
When I was a kid I used to play with "Creepy Crawlers" which was a form of
liquid PVC that you'd put on a mini hot plate, pour into a mold, and as it
cured it would give off a smell that I always remembered. So as an adult I
find that certain wines give off that same smell. I've tried to explain this
to people who know wine but so far no one has had that "aha!" moment, I assume
it's some type of long-chain polymer formed by the phenols in the grape skins.

~~~
robbrown451
If you want people to understand it, you probably need to pack your Creepy
Crawler kit next time you go to a party, and give a demonstration.

~~~
RichardCA
There is still a very active trade on eBay.

[http://www.ebay.com/bhp/plastigoop](http://www.ebay.com/bhp/plastigoop)

~~~
robbrown451
I'm tempted. Love that kind of stuff. And now I'm really curious about the
smell. :)

~~~
RichardCA
I can only describe it as "chemical-ey". I think there are several "notes" in
red wine that fall into that group (red wine is different from white, because
the skins stay on longer in the process).

In my case my dad was into wood-working so my childhood memories include all
sorts of solvents and other chemicals that had complex aromatics. So when I
pick up a memory when I'm drinking wine, I know there's "something" going on
at the molecular level, I just don't know what it is.

I don't think anyone knows in some cases, I mean the wine industry employs
chemists, obviously, but no one can really put their finger on how wine
develops and changes over time. That's why it's more of a craft than a
science.

------
ChuckMcM
I am unsurprised that differences in the palate are influenced by genetics.
I'm one of those people where smell is very poignant for me and I notice small
differences, and yet when tasting wines it was a fairly narrow group of wines
that I liked versus ones I could really care less about.

A friend of mine told me about their personal experience which was that they
felt that most wine tasted the same (with broad confines like all reds and all
whites) but that after they gave up sugar, wine became a completely different
beverage. They related that after two months without sugar in their diet not
only did potatoes taste as sweet as candy had before they gave up sugar, wine
opened up in astonishing ways.

It's on my list to replicate this experiment to see if an abundance of sugar
in the diet masks many interesting flavors in wine.

~~~
csydas
This is a somewhat surprising change as I went through a drastic diet change
about 10 years ago as a result of depression and a bout of anorexia; my diet
became almost exclusively vegetarian with almost no sweets (mostly tea with an
occasional splash of milk for drinks), and I had a similar result. Before I
wouldn't touch alcohol, and cakes from Cheesecake factory couldn't be sweet
enough for my taste.

Now such sweets are overpowering to me and the though of the taste alone is a
bit revolting to my mind. (nevermind the calorie count of one slice of that
carrot cake). But wines suddenly had some depth to them, and I could finally
notice the difference between an okayish bottle of wine and what they used to
water down for us at communion when I was a kid. Vegetables also just suddenly
had a whole depth of flavor tied just to the vegetable itself, and Frozen or
underripened vegetables stood out as very poor tasting to me.

------
erdojo
Sigh. Being a supertaster isn't a scientific explanation for not liking wine.
It just means if you don't like wine you are more likely to dislike it a lot.

By the definition, I am a supertaster. I know this because I once had a virus
that made the papillae on my tongue swell and I couldn't eat anything for a
week. My doctors all exclaimed how many "taste buds" I had and I must taste
foods very strongly. I do - I rarely need seasonings - even salt and pepper -
or heavy sauces. I eat pretty simple and enjoy (or despise) flavors.

But I love wine and many other strong/sour/acidic/fermented foods. Love dark
chocolate. Lemons. Bitter green teas. I suppose I would love these as a medium
or light taster too.

On the other hand, I hate coffee, sauerkraut, blue cheese and some other
strong foods. I suppose I would hate these as a medium or light taster too.
Just maybe not as fervently.

~~~
robbrown451
Is it possible that not all supertasters are alike? But that being a
supertaster is still relevant to differentiation between people's preferences
for wine?

~~~
erdojo
I'm sure there are variations. But the idea of a supertaster is that tastes
are more pronounced. So strong/acidic foods can be off-putting. But it's still
not the "cause" for not liking a food, more of a degree.

------
maxander
Somewhat disappointed, since I don't like wine either and I was hoping this
could help explain why, but my tastes seem to be diametrically opposed to the
author's. I even like strong alcohol of other sorts- I've recently grown to
like whiskey, since >10% beer is hard to find in my area.

The frustrating thing is that there is a _very definite_ aspect of wine that
makes me dislike it, but as far as I've been able to determine that same taste
doesn't appear anywhere else, so I've never been able to describe to anyone
what that is.

The science here makes me wonder, though, if someday someone will popularize a
quantitative framework for people's differing tastes. Imagine an app where you
take a picture of your tongue and it categorizing your taste-sensitivity on
however many fronts, and recommends a restaurant. Or via a genetic test-
23andme could pay for some of its customers to take Dr Marks' taste-test-
battery, and work out the correlations. People love to be categorized, and
here's a way to do it that's directly impactful on their everyday lives (and
in particular, on a _social_ aspect of their lives.)

~~~
skinner_
Indeed! Actually I'm quite surprised that with all the competition and
snobbery going on at Michelin-star level restaurants, there's no restaurant
that tunes their tasting menu to the guest's individual perception. Even a
genetic test is probably feasible now, but at least a picture of the tongue
and a questionnaire. I think there's a huge business opportunity here. "Crisp
Paupiettes of Sea Bass in Barolo Sauce" sounds posh, but it could sound even
more posh "finely tuned to the perception of those extremely sensitive to
chestnut tannins".

------
imsofuture
I don't believe in this cilantro soap trope. Cilantro distinctly tastes like
soap to me... and is delicious. I'm pretty sure it's just an odd taste that
some people enjoy and some people don't. I used to hate it, now I love it, it
tastes the same.

~~~
hwillis
I mean... it's not just a trope, it's OR6A2[1]. But yes you're broadly correct
that the overall taste is the same. Some people are just much more sensitive
to particular compounds in it.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OR6A2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OR6A2)

------
roadnottaken
I feel like all the same snobbery and nonsense is common now regarding craft-
beer and I have all the same feelings about it as the author does for wine...

~~~
chriswarbo
I tend to roll my eyes and ignore such things, except for one frustratingly-
common case: pretty much _all_ stouts and porters (which are among the few
beers I actually like) are described as tasting of coffee.

The problem is, I find coffee absolutely horrendous (I get my stereotypical-
hacker caffeine fix from energy drinks), so it's often hard to tell whether
actual coffee has been added during brewing process (which is quite common for
stouts), resulting in a horrible drink with an accurate description; or
whether it's a lazy 'tasting note' which is completely unrelated to the
actual, potentially nice, flavour of the drink.

~~~
andrewem
I know a person who grew to love stouts and porters, but then for medical
reasons had to give up all caffeine. It's awfully hard to figure out which of
those beers contain caffeine from coffee, and which just have coffee-like
flavors. This person has mostly sworn off such beers in order to avoid the
risk of drinking one with caffeine.

------
fvdessen
I feel like this article told more about the people reading and writing at The
NewYorker than anything else. The lexical field is fascinating.

~~~
QAPereo
What did you learn about them?

~~~
fvdessen
That not enjoying wine can be a profound experience that makes one search for
meaning involving philosophers, politicians, multiple countries, mathematics,
science, music, history, art, and social intrigue spanning dozens of people.

~~~
matwood
Haha, I came to the same conclusion. The article was a lot of words to say "I
don't like wine, so I'm not going to drink it anymore."

~~~
xapata
It was about much more than that -- a child's relationship with parents, self-
esteem, the American Dream, and social class, among other things.

As with many things (like academic papers) the meat is in the footnotes.

------
joveian
I've always thought alcohol is a waste of good sugar :). I have very little
bitter taste so it isn't that wine tastes particularly bad to me, just that
grape juice tastes much better.

I do like cooking with lots of vinegar since it tastes sweet to me, but it
seems like few people have similar taste (but I know of at least one relative
who had a similar taste). What we eat regularly can also affect body odor and
I'd guess this is a big part of why many people list smell as on of or the
most important factors in attraction.

I've noticed that for me even mild dehydration makes my sense of taste briefly
much more sensitive, to the point that there seem to be dozens of flavors in a
glass of tap water that normally I wouldn't distinguish much of anything in.
It only lasts about three sips and may be partially due to my chronic health
issues that seem to sensitize me to many things, but it is interesting how
strong of an effect it is.

------
dxhdr
"I started thinking about other foods I didn’t like. Capers. Kimchi. Cloves.
Pepper. Kale. Coffee was drinkable—in fact, positively delicious—only with
milk and sugar. Seltzer required enough discreet mouth-sloshing to subdue the
effervescence. And I couldn’t imagine why anyone would eat a radish unless
paid. It was more like a bee sting than a vegetable."

That's too bad! These spices and foods are all among my favorites. I'm curious
what flavors the author enjoys most given her taste receptor situation.

"I dislike—in some cases, hate, hate, hate!—many fruits, and had not eaten a
peach or a banana since I was a child, though I had smelled them, with
displeasure ..."

This wasn't addressed in the article, but are bitterness receptors involved
with tasting fruits? Although it seems more likely the 23andMe test doesn't
identify taste variations that involve those flavors. Or maybe those dislikes
are just unrelated to biology.

~~~
imesh
She listed major staples of my diet and I still can't finish a glass of wine.

------
samfriedman
I've thought a lot about the subjectivity of taste, and I've come to the
conclusion that it's one of those things like the Blue/Gold Dress Illusion
that is perceived fundamentally differently by different people, and each
group lives their lives in complete ignorance of the others. I'm also
convinced that taste is a spectrum: a series of distributions which overlap
between the different tasting groups.

When I met my now-fiancee, she was certainly what you would call a picky eater
(not "only grilled cheese for dinner" picky, but in the general vicinity). As
a self-styled "adventurous eater", I figured I'd try to get her to like more
foods. It's worked, kind of. I think she's moved higher on her taste spectrum
(towards more flavors) but still tastes things distinctly differently than me.
She loves kale now, but most bitter greens and some veg are disgustingly
bitter (as are tonic drinks). Puzzlingly to me, she's also become a cheese
fanatic, devouring even the most aggressive raw-milk washed-rind cheese and
hot blue cheeses that I personally find a bit much. And, to draw it back to
the article, she's learned to enjoy wine. Whites are preferred over reds, but
even then she has liked reds with softer tannins and bigger fruit tastes.

I also think a big part of the taste spectrum is that of texture. In my
fiancee's experience many foods like steak or poached fish or soup in general
may taste delicious, but the texture itself is off-putting enough to make the
food unpalatable. Wine of course doesn't have this problem (except in a
limited way of mouthfeel, body, tannin structure). All in all, taste seems to
be immensely personal and complicated with a lot of different factors besides
"brussels sprouts are too bitter".

It makes me wonder if there could be some analytical way to determine the
salt/sugar/acid needed to add to a dish to make it taste comparatively similar
between people from different parts of the tasting spectrum. Like color gamut
calibration, but for food!

------
cup-of-tea
I don't think I'm a supertaster because I like wine, capers, black coffee,
and, in fact, most "strong" things. But I don't like coriander/cilantro. I'm
one of those people for whom it tastes like soap. I had also heard of a thing
called a "highly sensitive person" and I would rather attribute my dislike of
coriander to that. I just notice that, in general, I am far more sensitive
than many people. I hear things, see things, and taste things that others
don't. And, like the author of this article, I don't say it to brag because
it's actually very often a liability. I can be irritated by something which
nobody else will notice.

------
lordnacho
I have to admit the only wine that I ever thought was special was Petrus.

I'm also fairly sure that if they weren't labelled differently, I wouldn't be
able to tell much difference between two red grapes or two whites. I'm a bit
cynical about other's ability to do so as well, but politeness prevents me
from expressing it. Sometimes it's good to have something to talk about, so
you let the group's wine connoisseur go on about the provenance of whatever
you're drinking.

~~~
seattle_spring
> I wouldn't be able to tell much difference between two red grapes or two
> whites. . I'm a bit cynical about other's ability to do so as well

Are you also cynical about other's ability to tell apart Dr Pepper from Coca
Cola? Or Black tea from coffee? Because they're a lot more similar than many
wine variations.

~~~
lordnacho
I don't think I've come across anyone who's considered themselves a soft drink
connoisseur before, so what is there to be cynical about? Plenty of people
will tell you they're into wines, and they will give you accounts of the
growing seasons in particular years and places.

------
otterpro
Wow, I never knew why I hated the taste of wine, while everyone else were so
eager to drink. To me, it tastes bitter, except for champagne. This article
might mean that I might be super-taster, even though I had never considered
it, since I cannot distinguish a lot of food.

Anyway, I just ordered PTC (PROP) strip from Amazon. It turns out it can be
purchased for less than $10. I'm so curious to see where I stand, and if it
turns out I am a super taster, I might need to change my diet.

------
dredmorbius
So, wine tasting and culture have always been with us, right?

Um, actually, not really:

"wine tasting"

[https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=wine+tasting&y...](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=wine+tasting&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cwine%20tasting%3B%2Cc0)

"fine wine"

[https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=fine+wine&year...](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=fine+wine&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cfine%20wine%3B%2Cc0)

"wine collection / wine collector"

[https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=wine+collectio...](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=wine+collection%2C+wine+collector&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cwine%20collection%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cwine%20collector%3B%2Cc0)

------
fouc
Being a supertaster doesn't mean you end up being a picky eater. It's entirely
possible to acclimate to foods and drinks that you originally detested. For
me, I spent years forcing myself to drink beer before it barely became
tolerable. I also force myself to eat brussel sprouts when they show up (such
as christmas). I do the same for olives, pineapple, coffee, wine, etc.
Nowadays when I order from subway, I always ask for "everything", it's great
to get a mix of things that I don't really like with the things I do.

------
md224
I'm 32 years old and I hate eating vegetables (with the exception of lettuce
and celery, since they're practically tasteless). I've sheepishly described
myself as a "kids menu eater", though I wonder if perhaps there's a biological
excuse for my aversion. I also hate spicy foods... maybe I'm a supertaster?
Then again, I like salty foods, so maybe not...

~~~
R_haterade
It's interesting to me that you find celery tasteless. I can't stand the
flavor myself but I'll eat Brussels sprouts, broccoli and cauliflower all day
long.

Not to mention wasabi, horseradish and other pungent foods.

Can I ask how you feel about garlic?

~~~
md224
This thread is blowing my mind... I thought celery was super inoffensive,
essentially the watermelon of vegetables. (Now I'm curious what you think
about watermelon!)

Re: garlic, I'm a fan.

~~~
R_haterade
Watermelon makes my teeth itch. I don't know how else to describe it.

I think strawberries are the closest I have to your watermelon.

------
Mikeb85
Interesting article, but it's not particularly notable that someone wouldn't
like "big" wines (those with lots of alcohol and tannins). Those wines are
better aged, and even when consumed, are better with something that can stand
up to the strong flavours; well-charred, fatty steak is the classic pairing
for these wines, and it is very good. In fact, this association could be why
so many people like these wines.

------
mjw1007
Taste isn't really a matter of taste.

(That is, the way we use the word "taste" figuratively is rather
inappropriate.)

~~~
robbrown451
While there are genetic components (and various other things that can be
physically explained) to taste, that's true of a great many preferences, that
is, those that we use the word "taste" to figuratively describe.

But their are also psychological elements to it, many of which are cultural.
So you might like wine, or speed metal, or gangsta rap, or Tolkien, or caviar,
or saunas, or any number of other things through a complex combination of
genetics and the culture you've been exposed to.

~~~
mjw1007
But I think flavour is an outlier here.

If I like different music to you, I think very little of the difference is in
the ears and almost all of it is in the mind.

One reason why I think this matters is that the brain is mutable, and it's
very likely that I could learn to like a kind of music that I don't like at
the moment. Maybe I could also learn to like a flavour that I dislike at the
moment, but I probably couldn't learn to care much about a flavour that I can
barely detect.

~~~
robbrown451
Of course "flavor" also includes things in the nose i.e. olifactory system,
and I'd guess that most things that people talk about with wine are happening
there. So yes, there are genetic differences that affect taste probably more
than hearing, at least at the actual sensory organ.

But the other thing to remember is that the brain is physical too, and can be
subject to genetic differences. It's just that we probably understand how the
tongue affects taste more than we can understand how the brain affects other
preferences (including flavor)....because the brain is so ridiculously
complicated and interconnected.

------
gilbetron
Too long of an article for an author trying to rationalize not liking wine.
You don't like it, get over it.

------
jgh
Hate radishes. Love wine, black coffee, and spicy food. Different strokes for
different folks, I guess.

------
clw8
I wonder what percentage of Michellin starred chefs are supertasters? I have
to follow recipes to a T because I can't really taste if it needs more
something, I just follow the recipe and if it doesn't taste good I look for
another recipe. I guess this article explains why I enjoy spicy food a lot
more than most people.

------
holograham
my dad is a chef - he taught me 2 rules for wine:

1\. Drink what you like 2\. You will always sound like a pretentious douchebag
talking about wine

I find these to be universally true.

------
sampo
But what about the people to who cilantro tastes as soap? Are they sensitive
tasters overall, or is cilantro an orthogonal issue?

~~~
dredmorbius
That point is addressed in the article, as it pertains to the author
specifically.

------
santoshalper
Her father was an asshole for implying that there is something wrong with
people who don't like wine.

------
singularity2001
I expected that she couldn't stand wine because of the histamine and sulfites!
slightly disappointed.

~~~
staticautomatic
The vast majority of people I've met who claim to have a problem with sulfites
in wine have zero problem consuming sulfites in other foods.

------
draw_down
I just don't think it's a good idea to so closely relate taste and identity.
And let's not even get into the "first-rate brain" stuff, ay yi yi.

~~~
xapata
There was a bit of tongue-in-cheek tone to the article, as common in the New
Yorker. I wouldn't read the first-rate brain bit as you did. It was a joke.

~~~
umanwizard
If you assume the New Yorker is joking every time they engage in smug class
signaling, it does become much easier to stomach. But I'm not the person
you're responding to and it really didn't sound like a joke to me either.

~~~
xapata
Usually, describing oneself as being second-rate is an attempt at self-
deprecating humor.

------
mwilliaams
Here's some science to save you from pretending to love any liquor: alcohol
naturally tastes bad, probably because it's poisonous.

That's why so many flavors are added to it—to mask the bad taste of ethanol.
Wanting to "get a buzz" is stupid. Go for a run.

That's what I think.

~~~
StavrosK
And yet I have to explain to every new person every time why I don't drink
alcohol :( "It tastes bad" "But have you tried X cocktail/drink/whatever?"
"No, but I don't need to, the alcohol tastes too bad to be masked".

Hell, I've returned desserts because they contained liqueur. I can't stand it.

~~~
teddyh
Alcohol (including beer) is an acquired taste, but with no good reason to
acquire the taste. It is exactly like smoking. If you have not forced yourself
to like if when you were young and stupid^H^H^H^H^H^H^H impressionable, then
there is no good reason to start later in life.

(The same can be said about coffee and tea, but those have arguably good
reasons to acquire the taste; i.e. a cheap way to get caffeine.)

~~~
mod
What do you find is the benefit of caffeine that couldn't be said of nicotine
or alcohol?

Obviously they have different effects, but the people using each of those
various drugs find the effect desirable.

Also, what's the point of starting caffeine later in life? AFAIK studies show
that people who use no caffeine are generally more energetic/alert than those
who use it regularly; it only works in the short-term.

I also think there have been studies that show both wine and coffee can be
good for your health, so there's that, too.

~~~
DiabloD3
Re: Coffee, you need to cycle it periodically to restore your sensitivity to
it.

Drink one 8-12oz cup of it every morning, take a week off once a month, do not
drink an entire pot no matter how much you'll be tempted to.

~~~
StavrosK
I never drink coffee (hate the taste, similar to alcohol), and am plenty
energetic throughout the day. I regularly go to sleep at 6am if I'm working on
some side-project, and that's only because I don't want to wake up very very
late the next day.

