
Uber wants to redefine employment, labor groups are fighting back - rachelschnalzer
https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2020-04-08/labor-groups-ask-congress-to-reject-uber-ceo-plea
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ogre_codes
There are 2 big problems with on-demand/ gig employment.

#1 Our current system of coupling healthcare and other life essential benefits
with employment is broken. It makes it difficult for people to work small jobs
or switch jobs. In order for gig jobs to be viable, people need to be able to
get survive a broken foot without going bankrupt.

#2 Gig-style businesses tend to vastly underpay employees. The early claims
that Uber drivers were averaging $15-20/ hour or more were completely
fabricated. The reality is most gig jobs require people use their own vehicles
and don't pay them for inevitable downtime which means they are vastly
underpaid. Minimum wage for gig workers should include payment for expenses
(including a reasonable $0.50+ / mile for travel) and downtime between gigs.

If those things are fixed, then suddenly gig work is amazing, but that's a
pretty big ask.

~~~
chrisseaton
> Our current system of coupling healthcare and other life essential benefits
> with employment is broken.

Is it not possible to purchase your own healthcare independently of an
employer? And opt-out of employer healthcare? Or are only employers allowed to
insure you?

If it's a matter of scale could a buyer's union buy it bulk like an employer
but not linked to your employment?

~~~
GaryNumanVevo
Buying healthcare as an individual is very expensive, since you're not buying
in bulk. Some larger unions do have healthcare for members, but it's more of a
bargaining chip to keep workers paying dues.

~~~
bhupy
> Buying healthcare as an individual is very expensive, since you're not
> buying in bulk

This is a common refrain, but it's actually not true. Individual plans operate
as a giant "group" with other individuals, and the size of that group is often
larger than most employer groups.

There are a host of reasons why healthcare is expensive in the US, and the
"bulk purchasing" is not really one of them.

Source: I work in health insurance.

~~~
hkmurakami
What we really need now to level is to make individual health insurance
effectively a pre-income-tax item like it is when you get it via employment.

~~~
bhupy
> What we really need now to level is to make individual health insurance
> effectively a pre-income-tax item like it is when you get it via employment.

The ICHRA[1], which came into effect on January 2020 is an interesting step in
this direction. It allows employers to provide a pre-tax cash monthly
allowance to buy health insurance on the individual market _in lieu of_ the
monthly premiums they would pay anyway as part of the employer mandate to
provide group health insurance directly.

There's even a YC company that offers ICHRA functionality for employers[2].

[1] [https://ichra.com/](https://ichra.com/)

[2]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22527102](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22527102)

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xhkkffbf
I like gig work. I like the freedom. We need fewer restrictions not more.

Forcing businesses to hire only full-time workers reduces the number of jobs.
They won't hire someone unless there's 2000 hours of work to fill up a year.

~~~
airstrike
> I like the freedom.

You do you, but I just wanted to provide an alternative view: that freedom
might be great when you're young and equally free, but IMHO it doesn't work as
well when you're 40 years old trying to ensure stable income to support your
family

~~~
majormajor
That's less about uber or employment status and more about "disruption" in
general.

Rapid innovation is great for advancing the state of the art but terrible for
all the people in society who had made a life around doing work for a decade
or two that is suddenly no longer a viable career.

We (as a civilization) need to take care of the people who aren't the ones
making the new fortunes.

~~~
mirimir
> We (as a civilization) need to take care of the people who aren't the ones
> making the new fortunes.

OK, outsider here. But it's my impression that people "making the new
fortunes" are a much smaller subset of the startup economy than many think.
It's arguably similar to the common US middle class belief in being
temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

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LatteLazy
I think there are a lot of people who want to work for services like Uber.
Defacto banning them like many seem to want to is counterproductive and
somewhat luddite-esque. How to do it without hurting other employment is
complex. But banning it isn't an answer, it's just ducking the question...

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diebeforei485
There is room for something between the traditional 1099 and W2 categories.

~~~
ogre_codes
Yes. Though I would prefer it's not designed by people who have a history of
exploiting people who perform the services they sell.

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freepor
Governments have created the arbitrary bipartite distinction between employees
and contractors. They need to create a third category for gig workers that
accommodates the flexibility that these workers desire while also giving them
the labor protections they need in the asymmetric power relationship with
their employer.

~~~
scollet
I don't understand the downvotes. Perhaps there's added complexity in having
these two distinct contracts anyways? I think there's an argument to be make
for salary augmentation via commissions. This is at least more secure and
rewards demand.

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ColonelSanders
I like to use comparison with labor standards in other economies.

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/france-uber-ruling-puts-gig-
wor...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/france-uber-ruling-puts-gig-workers-
rights-in-focus-11583353513) is similar to this, since it involves employment
status.

There are various restrictions imposed on ride-sharing companies across the
globe.

Not necessarily labor, but related to medallions / licensure to drive taxis.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_ridesharing_compan...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_ridesharing_companies_by_jurisdiction)

~~~
icebraining
> Not necessarily labor

You can say that again. The result of the medallion systems was that often
taxi drivers had to _pay to work_ , by renting a medallion from wealthy
owners. Even in countries where the owner of the medallion couldn't rent it,
they were sold at very high prices when the owner retired, making it into a
middle-class privilege.

~~~
ColonelSanders
I appreciate your concerns and I think you're doing the right thing!

May I ask which countries you're referring to?

In USA, I know immigrants who are awarded medallions via lottery and who take
a loan and pay off their medallion - like an investment. It potentially helps
them break into the middle class.

The medallion ended up becoming an entity that was stable that the freelance
economy would peg to _something_. Not saying it was perfect, but it prevented
the system from being flooded with drivers.

NYC medallions used to be $1m in 2013. They're less the $200k these days.
There's consequences to people who were just starting out, who saved for
medallions, who now have their investment paid for over decades lost.

Working and earning something isn't privilege to me, that's gumption. Whenever
I see that word online very rarely does it take into account hard work. 20 or
30 years driving 70+ hours a week? And they're an immigrant just trying to
live the American dream?

Let them have happiness in life. And we should be celebrating their work and
effort. They are absolute heroes for sticking to something so persistently.

Let's talk about fairness for new drivers. Doesn't necessarily have to be at
the expense of others!

~~~
icebraining
> NYC medallions used to be $1m in 2013.

Exactly. Which is why most of them are owned by companies (almost 1/3 by a
single one: Marblegate Asset Management), not by plucky immigrants pulling
themselves by their bootstraps. Those are the ones renting the medallions and
not saving anything close to $1M even in 20 years. The average income of a NYC
taxi driver in '93 (so long before Uber and such changed the market) was
$19k/year!

Sure, in some markets the city occasionally issued some medallions for lower
prices, but how is a lottery earning something through gumption? It's
literally blind luck!

> 20 or 30 years driving 70+ hours a week? And they're an immigrant just
> trying to live the American dream?

How can we be criticizing Uber for exploiting their workers, while promoting
working 70+ hours a week? How is that not exploitative?

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m4r35n357
Piece work bad.

------
jawns
Uber is arguing that there are two tiers of workers, with disparate levels of
labor protections, and that there should be a third tier in the middle.

Let's say that employees are protected at Tier 1 and independent contractors
are protected at Tier 3. Uber proposed a new category of worker with
protections at Tier 2, and it claims its workers fit in that category.

I'm fine with the idea of a Tier 2, but I don't think Uber's workers fit in
this category.

Uber claims that there are several things that set its workers apart from
employees, but the chief things are the ability to set their own schedules and
the ability to work for competing companies.

As to the scheduling, there are lots of employees out there who get to
set/request their own schedules; it's just that with ride-sharing gigs, it
happens at a more granular level. But while they are on the clock, they have
very little control over how they get the job done, which is a key
differentiator between employees and ICs.

As to working for competing companies, there are lots of employees out there
who work more than one job; it's just that with ride-sharing gigs, it happens
at a more granular level. But it's not as if any driver is working for Uber
and Lyft _simultaneously_. They don't get paid by both platforms for the same
fare. They can be on-call with both platforms at once, but they're only ever
getting paid for one at a time. They're just going from one part-time job to
another in more rapid intervals than in traditional part-time jobs.

In both cases, the distinction seems more like one of degree than of kind.

What I'd like to see is the creation of a Tier 2, and then phasing out Tier 3,
so that independent contractors get Tier 2 labor protections. But Uber/Lyft's
workers should be Tier 1 from the start, because they're employees.

