
Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley - paulashbourne
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/technology/article-canada-facing-brain-drain-as-young-tech-talent-leaves-for-silicon/
======
whack
Canada is in a really tough spot here. I've always admired Canadian
culture/values, and in the abstract, would love to live in Canada one day.
However, as a Software developer, the compensation and opportunities that one
can find in SF/Seattle/NYC dwarf anything in Canada. Until this changes,
Canada is always going to lose its brightest engineers, which will in turn
worsen the problem even further.

Some solutions I can think of, which might help:

\- Aggressively pursue the brightest non-American engineers, who are hesitant
to move to USA because of immigration restrictions.

\- Offer very lucrative perks to the major software companies, to expand their
engineering presence in Canada. Yes, it stinks having to offer tax-breaks, but
at least it will help build initial momentum.

\- Aggressively encourage/fund/facilitate startups. Unlike salaried employees,
startups aren't turned off by the low-engineering-wages. Once Canada can grow
5-10 startups into major established companies with Canadian HQs, that will
really boost the local engineering ecosystem and job market.

~~~
_xzxj
Canadian here (who lives outside of Canada but recently did a stint there for
a bit) and this will sound negative but f-it. Canadian culture sucks when it
comes to trying new things. Canada has some extra safety net but the culture
is puritanical and conservative and nobody wants to go out on a limb and try
something new and crazy. Not like Americans. Those that do are constantly
questioned by everybody. The idea of being an entrepreneur, in the GTA
especially, is buying a second house in the suburbs and hoping the housing
market continues rising.

The problem of trying to get Canadian tech up to par with the US is much
deeper than pulling some tax/incentive levers, I think. There are some really
deep cultural issues that I don't think can be solved for a few generations.

~~~
ryanobjc
The liberalness of Canada is overhyped. The reality is Canada is deeply
conservative. It's possible to have universal health care and be conservative,
that's only a oxymoron in the US.

To quote this excellent article[1]: "the default setting of the Canadian male:
a dull but stern dad, who, under a facade of apparent normalcy and common
sense, conceals a reserve of barely contained hostility toward anyone who
might rock the boat. To these types, those who make a fuss are bothersome and
ignorant at best, and probably dangerous and destructive too."

I was born in Canada. I went to school in Canada. Only once I moved to the US
did I feel like I could express and be myself. That I am surrounded by people
who think like I do and value the things I value. Dogmatic adherence to the
way it's done, because change is dangerous is the default state of many
Canadians. For those who it's not, well, you know them, they're already living
in the US.

[1] [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/06/opinion/jordan-
peterson-c...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/06/opinion/jordan-peterson-
canadian-deference.html)

~~~
ahelwer
Honestly I gotta agree with you here, bud. When I was growing up in Canada I
had to keep my dreams a secret. If you had any grand goals people thought you
were an egomaniacal weirdo. It wasn't until I seriously dated someone here in
the US that I realized the difference: as part of the "delving into each
others' inner lives" phase of the early relationship, I sheepishly admitted I
had dreams of doing some pretty big things. I was greeted with an eye-roll and
her saying "everyone wants to do something like that".

Here in the USA it's normal for everyone to have big dreams, and weird if they
don't. I think I like it.

~~~
xordon
As a Canadian who has lived in the US for 1 year (in SF) I have a totally
different take away. I noticed that people here are very hard working, almost
as they are desperate for success, like if they fail or lost their job they
would just die, poor and homeless and healthcare-less.

I found that people in Canada were much more focused on happiness and were
more willing to make sacrifices to improve their quality of live, though in
Vancouver the housing crisis was a gut check for anyone who's goals include
owning a home, or starting a family.

There is money to be made here in the valley, especially in tech, but it is
not where I intend to be permanently. I want to retire one day, and I probably
can't do that here. I definitely couldn't do that in Vancouver with a local
salary.

~~~
itronitron
>> like if they fail or lost their job they would just die, poor and homeless
and healthcare-less

Because they could be very easily if they don't have a family safety net. I
think that ultimately puts a damper on peoples' productive and creative
ability as they tend to then focus more on keeping their job rather than being
the most productive they can be for their employer.

~~~
robbrit
> I think that ultimately puts a damper on peoples' productive and creative
> ability as they tend to then focus more on keeping their job rather than
> being the most productive they can be for their employer.

You could also look at it the other way. The lack of a safety net is like
burning the bridges: it encourages you to be more productive and creative
precisely because if you're not, then you've got nothing to fall back on.

~~~
itronitron
I think that works when looking for employment, because there is a wide open
field in which creativity is more likely to find a good match. Once people get
hired they tend to focus solely, right or wrong, on getting on with the people
within their organization which is going to place a limit on their creative
output.

------
52-6F-62
It's because of the pay and type of opportunities.

You either take below market rate (like myself) or you work in something like
one of the 300 ad-tech or we'll-build-your-website/app dev mills (more often
than not it's both).

There are a limited number of opportunities for truly interesting or
innovative work if you don't want to work for "we're changing the world by
creating the next uber/airbnb/cryptocurrency/coupon app!"

There are some seriously good and interesting companies here, but many exist
out of the popular eye and/or usually located in the suburbs. (at least around
Toronto)

But mainly I suspect it's the pay and career trajectory. Get a gig at FAANG?
You can write your ticket after that. Work at a major Canadian company? You
won't get a call back from other _Canadian_ companies at a pay cut...

~~~
mywittyname
> You either take below market rate (like myself) or you work in something
> like one of the 300 ad-tech or we'll-build-your-website/app dev mills (more
> often than not it's both).

This is probably feeding the problem. You need good engineers to create high-
value products in order to afford to pay high salaries for good engineers.
Economies can't get ahead when they waste engineering talent developing
trivial software that doesn't build long-term growth.

Canada should probably have a massive advanced military project that aims to
produce state of the art technology. Pay qualified people great salaries and
let them use their inventions in the private sector after some period of time.

~~~
52-6F-62
That sounds good. I'll take it. Then send me to astronaut training and I'll do
systems. Then I'll move to Vancouver Island, semi retire, tinker and teach the
kids.

But otherwise, I'm trying to figure out how I can possibly save or make some
more money on the side without running myself ragged or ruining my
relationship—and feel human all the while.

I don't want to exaggerate but something is definitely off. I've seen
companies resist hiring engineers at almost all cost (except for at 35-60k)
but will pay "Technology Procurement Managers" 300k+. Don't get me started on
some of the outcome of those practices...

------
r-s
Canadian tech worker here. Base salary is 120k CAD in Calgary which is far
above market rate but I am educated, experienced etc. That is 93k USD.

I am looking to move to the USA because of higher salaries, but I am not 22
years old anymore and moving a family (with 2 earners) is no easy task.

It falls on deaf ears though, 120k CAD is a good income, I can afford a house,
cars, no debts etc so there is very little understanding from others how I
could not be satisfied with pay.

~~~
padobson
Do Canadian companies make that much less money than American ones? Why should
they get to pad their profit margins because 120k CAD is "good income"?

~~~
badpun
A lot of the tech industry is about burning through investors' money in search
of new profitable ideas. I'm guessing there's much less investor money in
Canada.

~~~
pembrook
"Burning through investors money in search of profitable ideas" has nothing to
do with it. There's this huge misconception on HN about the size of the
venture capital market. Start-ups are a miniscule portion of the tech economy
by any measure of value.

The reason engineers make so much money in the US is the public market giants
like Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Google, etc. The combined market cap of
FAANG is fluctuating around $3 trillion right now. That's about 2X the entire
GDP of Canada...in _just 5 American companies._

No large-ish tech company in Canada is near that level of profitability or
size. Combine that with currency fluctuations and with the greater
tax/regulatory burden of having a full-time employee in Canada, and you will
never have a Canadian company that can afford to pay engineers $250K+ en masse
like FAANG can.

~~~
vonmoltke
FAANG can only hire so many engineers, the positions tend to be highly
competitive, they pull them from all over the world, and the drop-off in
compensation at the next level is pretty significant.

~~~
netheril96
Can Canadian programmers good enough to be hired by FAANG be paid similar
salaries in Canada?

~~~
jonny_eh
No, that's the whole point of this discussion.

~~~
netheril96
It's a rhetorical question.

------
Kluny
Canadian here. I get $65,000 USD from my remote American job. That's low
enough that people on this forum snicker at me, and high enough that companies
in the "tech town" that I live in physically wince when I tell them my salary
expectation. I'd rather work locally, but what can I do?

~~~
dang
> _people on this forum snicker at me_

I hope you just mean that metaphorically, but if it's actually happening,
please let us know so we can scold them. Putting others down that pettily is a
breach of civility.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
daxorid
I've seen what the OP describes on HN many times in discussions of engineer
salaries. It's usually not really a personal snickering as much as a stern
warning that the person is "being taken advantage of" and they should leave
immediately.

I see it all the time, but don't have any examples specifically bookmarked.

~~~
Kluny
Exactly that, yeah.

------
systemBuilder
I used to be an ECE professor at UBC, the #2 school in Canada. At that school,
ECE is part of applied sciences. And do you know what else is part? Yeah,
nursing. The nurses earned the same pay scale as the ECE professors. And the
bus drivers also earned the same pay scale at age 30 but had been working 10
years by that time and had no student loans to pay off.

When I left my pay raise was 133%. There is no word in the Canadian language
to describe my salary level, it still beats every professor in every
department, 20 years later ...

What kind of challenges did I leave behind when I left UBC? Research into
forestry robotic Feller-Bunchers (giant tree snippers); Optical Systems for
cutting Lumber in Sawmills. Computer architecture? No. VLSI? No. Compilers,
Operating systems, CAD tools? No. Nothing core to these fields was ever done
in Canada ....

~~~
ryanobjc
Hey that was my Alma mater.

My wife went to Berkeley and I am profoundly jealous of the quality of her
education. UBC is fine but it has a local view and doesn’t deserve to be
called world class imo. It doesn’t develop a worldly viewpoint in its
students. And why would it? It’s mission is to educate British Columbians.

This is a hard topic for me because I was forced to move to Seattle in 2001
right after I graduated. Initially I was only semi willing, but the job market
in Vancouver for new grads just didn’t exist then. It’s hard to find fellow
Canadians who share similar viewpoints.

I’d love to chat more about this with you, somehow!

------
cfcf14
Canadian living in London for about 4 years now - of course people are
leaving. The pay is incredibly low in major Canadian cities like Vancouver &
Toronto; I was looking at 50-60k/yr there, ~150k in the US, or about 60-70k
GPB in London.

Now, London isn't exactly cheap, and my overall buying power here is probably
only mildly superior to what it would be in Canada, but I get to live in a
great city with all the amenities of a major European hub.

Canada is great and I love many things about it, and I do consider it my
proper home, but there's not much to attract me back at this point in my life
& career. It's just truly a bad place to be if you're in tech.

I've been encouraging my friends back home to go explore other options like
the US or Europe, and so far 3 more people I know have left - and it doesn't
take much convincing once they see what's abroad.

~~~
handsomechad
What industries pay better in Canada? What industry is Canada a _good_ place
for? At least, better than tech. Or is it just that tech workers have so much
opportunity and mobility that there's too much incentive for them to leave
their domestic labor markets.

~~~
refurb
Coming from Western Canada, the oil and gas industry pays pretty well, or at
least it did when I last talked to folks. The O&G industry in Canada is on-par
with that in the US.

------
turingcompeteme
Me and most of my engineering friends faced this decision 5 years ago. We all
had to decide between offers from one of the big 5, or remaining in the
Toronto-Waterloo region. I'm the only one who stayed. And that's only because
I was presented with a really interesting opportunity not available to most.

I can only speak to the University of Waterloo, but there was this idea that
the only goal worth perusing was a cali job. 'Cali or Bust' was one of those
sayings that was said jokingly, but you know, people were also kind of serious
about it. Even really great paying jobs in Toronto or Waterloo are not as
desirable as the exact same position out west.

~~~
ryanobjc
It's not so much that people are paid better in the bay area, but the jobs are
plentiful, more interesting, more opportunities. Endless opportunities in
fact.

Bay area best case scenario is top of the world. Founder of a world-wide
renowned company.

Best case scenario for being in waterloo: Founder of a huge telcom handset
manufacturer until shifting markets cause massive failure written about in
economics textbooks as "what not to do"

~~~
hluska
> Best case scenario for being in waterloo: Founder of a huge telcom handset
> manufacturer until shifting markets cause massive failure written about in
> economics textbooks as "what not to do"

I'm sorry, but this is absolutely not true. Not only did the company you're
talking about pay out incredibly well for its founders, but Waterloo is
dramatically different today.

~~~
systemBuilder
Are you talking about Nortel, Blackberry, QNX, or some other failed lake
Ontario company? I'm afraid the original poster was spot-on, you just need to
realize the long history of Canadian tech self-destructing ...

------
Kelbit
If Canadian companies were willing to offer a competitive salary, maybe
Canadian grads would stay. It doesn't even have to be 1:1 with the US, even
75% would be nice.

As it is, there is little incentive to stay here. I know a new grad who was
faced with the choice of staying in Canada to earn $40-50k CAD per year
starting, or heading to the US where he had a job offer with one of the big
five for $120k USD plus signing bonus. Guess which option he chose?

Canadian tech companies love to complain about lack of talent, but they're not
willing to pay for it, and they seem oblivious to the fact that we have a
professional worker mobility agreement with our southern neighbors that makes
it very easy to get a visa.

Something's gotta change.

~~~
m-p-3
I'm wondering how that salary difference really is when comparing the cost of
living of many Canadian cities vs Silicon Valley, the taxation rate and the
social services provided (universal healthcare, etc).

~~~
merinowool
Is Canadian healthcare any good? Where I live, you pay for this privilege
quite a lot of tax at still you have to go privately, because the quality is
just not worth your health. I really wish "universal healthcare" was scrapped,
so I could afford better services privately.

~~~
wk_end
Canadian living in the US: in my experience Canadian health care is as good or
better than in the US. Waiting times are probably somewhat longer for non-
emergencies because of triaging, but (again, my experience, subjective, etc)
I've often felt doctors are more interested in providing care and less
interested in unnecessary upselling.

I've only ever lived in the GTA, though. It's my understanding that in many
places away from major cities there can be a shortage of doctors.

~~~
refurb
_Canadian living in the US: in my experience Canadian health care is as good
or better than in the US._

Canadian living in US as well. The one thing I've noticed is the choice of
healthcare in the US (for those with good insurance). Have cancer? Pick the
best hospital you can find in the area. In Canada, you might live next to a
world-class institute or it might just be a regular hospital. That's where you
go.

But yes, healthcare in Canada is very good. The other thing I would call out
is that experimental/cutting edge technology is often available in the US
before Canada.

------
bacongobbler
US salaries are _much_ higher, the tech industry is booming in the states, and
it's very simple to apply for a visa or start a consulting company to work
remotely from home.

If you're a student graduating out of a Canadian college/university and are
looking for ways to advance your career (while making a lot more money on the
side), what's not to love about moving or working remote?

~~~
flamtap
I did exactly this, and have been working remotely for a Californian company
as of two months ago. All I had to do was open a sole proprietorship (a
trivial errand) and a USD bank account (technically optional), and report in
via email on my first day.

As a self-employed contractor, my costs are lower (working from home), I get
myriad tax breaks, and my salary is not even comparable to what I could expect
locally, even with having to pay for my own health and dental. I can't see
myself ever going back to working locally. Hell, I have been thinking about
moving into the mountains recently, just for the scenery.

~~~
csomar
Are you US based? Are you sure you are paying your taxes correctly? Creating
an LLC is simple but handling the accounting is the complicated bit.

------
martinshen
I recently moved back from the US (SF then Detroit) to Toronto to start a new
startup. I was shocked when some entrepreneurs were upset that an Amazon HQ2
may raise the prices on engineering talent in Toronto. That may be true but is
extremely short-sighted (and probably means those startups aren't VC-
ambitious). The Toronto area really needs Amazon, Google or another large tech
company to create a signifiant engineering presence and foster a deep
engineering pool.

I believe that the SFBay has nearly 500K Canadians. That's crazy.

~~~
bradlys
That seems like an outlandishly high number. Where did you get that? You're
saying that close to 25-33% of foreigners in the bay are Canadian.

~~~
andechs
The TN - (nonimmigrant NAFTA Professional) visa makes it very easy to move to
the US as a Canadian vs a foreigner from any other country.

~~~
privacypoller
*For now - as you say, that's a NAFTA visa and some professions are already having issues crossing the border (nurses and medical professionals lately). It's very unclear what will happen if talks don't lead to another deal, and I don't think most small start-ups could handle the fallout if they all of the sudden need to convert their Canadian staff to another entry mechanism.

~~~
jgh
Not sure why you got downvoted there, you raise a good point about TN and
NAFTA (though your assertion about nurses having issues at the border cries
for a citation). I don't think you're wrong that people should be concerned
about the current NAFTA negotiations, especially if they are Canadian (or
Mexican) on TN or employ any Canadians or Mexicans on TN.

------
huangc10
Canadian working in SV for almost a decade here. Yeah sure, it was about the
technology, job, but a lot of it has to do with lifestyle (which the article
fails to mention, and can't really be measured).

Since I've been here, I've learned how to drive stick shift, sky dived, and
been on way more adventure than what I could have if I stayed at home. It's
about adventure and taking a risk. Not necessarily about the money, but being
paid more doesn't hurt ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

~~~
mi100hael
I follow what you're getting at, but don't you think a large part of that is
due to your own attitudes/perception? It's not like there aren't people in
Canada who are doing exciting things like sky diving, let alone driving stick.

~~~
iodiniemetra
First of all, it's the weather. Half the year is rendered unusable for
unplanned adventure.

More than once here, on a rainy winter day, I've gotten in my car and driven
east until I hit the hills, found a park, and enjoyed a sunny afternoon.

~~~
privacypoller
When I looked at relocating from Vancouver/Victoria a decade ago, my wife's #1
requirement was "it has to have 4 seasons". I love the mountains so that means
some winter/snow. Winters out east are not a lot of fun and the lower
mainland/PNW is just so depressing. Tech + Opportunities + Seasons = a pretty
short list (especially in Canada)

~~~
rconti
So... what fit the bill?

------
Sytten
I'm also from Canada, but I have a very different experience from the other
posts. I live in Quebec and speaking french as a primary language. I am still
a CS student, but from what I have seen (I am involved a lot with other
universities) the retention rate in Quebec is much higher. Only a minority is
leaving Quebec for internships or jobs later on. Even if most of us speak
perfectly fine english the culture is very different. I see very good people
accepting 40-50k salaries for junior positions. Making a lot of money in
Quebec is kind of taboo, so seeking a high salary is not well seen. Last
thing, our education system is basically free (1600 CAD per semester). After 3
years of university most of people in CS have at least 10-12k in their savings
already. If someone has numbers for Quebec only, I would not be surprised too
see the emigration isn't really an issue.

~~~
okatsu
I'm in QC as well and was lucky enough to land a 65k job right out of school,
so it was awkward to see my classmates not only accepting 45-50k salaries but
also trying to rationalize them. I think you might be right about the taboo.

But otherwise I love Montreal. My salary today is definitely peanuts compared
to SV but I live comfortably here and I saved way more than 12k during school
thanks to internships and the low tuition costs you mentioned. The city is
very culturally rich and I just really enjoy it here.

~~~
toto123456
I'm in Qc too, in Québec city. May I ask what language do you guys use ?
Thanks.

~~~
okatsu
My job right out of school was mostly C++. Nowadays it's a mix of C++ and web
stuff.

~~~
toto123456
ok ok thanks, I'm learning c++ , and later I want to get into BI. :)

------
jasondc
Maybe it's not only the money. In Silicon Valley, engineers are treated like
stars, not sent to the basement with the worst office. In most cities, the
business leaders run the show, and treat engineers as a commodity, to be added
or disposed of when needed: "let's go faster by adding more engineers, who
cares about the talent level, what's the difference".

~~~
sixdimensional
This is very true but I think it might be slowly changing as the older
generations age out. I think it has to do with the old management
styles/structures still hanging on, where IT is still treated as it was 20,
30, more years ago.

Let's face it, today we are hard pressed to find almost any organization where
IT/IS is not a critical part of the organization.

I think as organizations change to more modern, organic, less hierarchical
structures, the importance of IT is changing. It is going from being a
"separate concern" to an "integrated concern". New students are being taught
technology at younger and younger ages, which means they can combine it with
other fields of study, and thus "business" and "IT" are finally closer to
being the same exact thing.

Right now, people are flocking to Silicon Valley with the currently somewhat
true but somewhat misguided belief (IMHO) that "that is where all the smart
people and opportunities are". It is not the ONLY place the smart people and
opportunities are.

There are smart people and opportunities everywhere. Sure, if they cluster in
one place, that's entirely possible and makes that place valuable. However,
when the cost of living exceeds some natural limit, I suspect that it will be
infeasible to continue to grow Silicon Valley further - and when that happens,
the desire to save money and shave off expenses will naturally drive
businesses, organizations and people to other areas.

------
auchenberg
Working for Microsoft, and moved to Seattle, WA last year, after having lived
in Vancouver, BC for about 1.5 year.

I can confirm this trend for several reasons:

1) The pay gap is real. Many get about a 40% pay increase by moving 3 hours
down south. It's significant.

2) Taxes are aprox 10% lower in Seattle. Makes a difference too.

3) Rent-net-pay-ratio is about the same for Vancouver/Seattle

4) For a tech worker the health care is both places privately insured and the
same.

Personally, I miss Vancouver. The city is awesome, and life quality is better,
but financially it's simply not attractive enough.

~~~
jonny_eh
> Rent-net-pay-ratio is about the same for Vancouver/Seattle

Doesn't that mean that Seattle is the same as Vancouver financially? If so,
why not stay in Vancouver?

~~~
marvin
No, because absent taxes, your disposable income has increased by the same
percentage as the increase in salary. Taxes make the increase in disposable
income even more pronounced.

This math mistake is the key to the fallacy that a cost-of-living increase
zeroes out an increase in salary.

------
mitjak
I'm surprised at the lack of answers that suggest a positive opinion about
working in Canada. I personally love the health care and other social
benefits, the winters, the multi-cultural city (Toronto), the people, and the
lack of gun ownership, among many other things. SV strikes me as a
monoculture. I don't want to live at my workplace. The opportunities are fewer
but there's also higher demand. My workplace has been struggling to find
senior talent with very competitive salaries and perks.

~~~
smokinn
Is the very competitive salary over 300k USD?

That's what's competitive in the Bay Area or Seattle for senior talent. While
there are benefits to Canada as you mentioned, for a lot of people they don't
make up a 50% pay cut.

~~~
vonmoltke
> Is the very competitive salary over 300k USD?

How many jobs are actually paying that? The salaries posted on the "Who Is
Hiring?" threads don't corroborate that, nor does my experience in NYC (which
is supposed to be on par with those areas).

~~~
systemBuilder
Google has at least 1000 employees in the Bay area in the $300k+ income
bracket. The entry-level job at Google pays like a staff engineer at a mortal
company.

~~~
vonmoltke
So, 1000 out of a few hundred thousand employed as software engineers in the
area?

------
Maven911
And better weather and the cachet of being in a world city.

The brain drain has been going on for decades now... But lately, the general
Canadian media has claimed there is a reversal. One case in point is Montreal
being proclaimed an "AI Hub". It's considered an "AI hub" mainly because of
one of the fathers of AI is from there (and one his students coming up with
the concept of Adversial networks) and a few companies opening satellite AI
branches such as Google and Microsoft. Nonetheless, that likely amounts to a
few hundred jobs at best, involved in cutting-hedge AI/ML/DL. Toronto also has
a few well-known AI research centers. And these centers haven't seemed to have
produced noticeable concrete results. But only time will tell if these pan
out, and more importantly produce enough jobs to keep local talent, which in
my mind is still very doubtful.

~~~
turingcompeteme
Better weather, definitely. But is anyone claiming San Franciso or Seattle are
more 'world city' than Toronto or Montreal? By almost any definition of world
city, they would be very wrong.

~~~
wolco
I'm from Toronto and San Francisco is a world class city. Last time I visited
it felt like a city from the future. It felt alive even the homeless have
evolved trying to get you to buy poetry instead of just begging.

------
motohagiography
There is a peculiar cultural issue where many Canadians think of work as being
granted a job as a reward for their virtuousness instead of being part of a
market. You can hear it every time someone complains how qualified they are
but unhappy with their lot. As though business were some great paternal force
that gave out jobs and higher salaries for good behavior.

When you view this ostensible sense of fairness as entitlement to rewards for
having merely complied with social norms, in addition to a general suspicion
of deal making, it becomes clear why they will work for less.

There is also a structural problem in Canadian tech where much of the real
money is made by "consulting," companies who exist as the result of it being
difficult to fire and lay off employees, and the delta of high marginal income
vs. corporate tax rates. These companies take a %50 or more cut of a
contractor's pay to insulate employers from the regulatory and tax risks of
keeping and firing real employees. That is, to maintain public entitlements
instead of private ones. Companies still pay top dollar for talent, just not
to the talent.

So long as you aren't a busybody about what the Jones's are up to, Canada has
a great quality of life. Unfortunately for Globe writers, that temptation
appears to be too great.

~~~
graeme
How are the consulting companies legal? From what I've read, it sounds like
the workers are really employees.

~~~
marvin
Same deal in Norway, consulting is huge because businesses want the
convenience of firing at will but are not allowed due to employment law.
Example scanario:

Salary for an experienced engineer (employed) is $80k.

Salary for a consultant (employed) is $80k. This consultant is hired out to a
company that wants his services for $230k usd per year, but the company can
now terminate this contract at will.

The consulting company has to pay the employee's salary regardless of whether
they have a contract or not. The consulting company sets aside a portion of
the $150k/year/employee profit to pay their employees if it's hard to get a
new contract, but of course they will lay off their surplus workforce if there
is ever an economic crisis. It' a _super profitable_ business when talent is
in demand. If demand is unusually high, the consulting companies compete to
provide slightly higher salaries, so they _do_ push the median wages up. So at
least that's good.

The consulting companies _love_ hiring new grads, because then they get away
with paying a $50k salary, but earn the same profit. The clients can't tell
the difference!

If you're smart, senior and well-connected, you'll get your own consulting
contracts without the middleman, and make $230k/year directly. You do take
some more risk; if the market tanks, you'll be laid off immediately instead of
with 3-12 months notice. You'll also be the first to go.

As a freelancer, it can be hard to get contracts with the best clients,
because they don't want to spend effort hiring recruiters that recognize
talent, and hence pick exclusively from the top 10 consulting companies.

So to answer your question: If this setup looks suspiciously like a shady wage
fixing scheme, it's because countries with a predomimantly Protestant work
ethic like Norway and Canada don't think that's such a big deal. People were
born equal, they're supposed to make equal money. (Company owners
notwithstanding, now as during the Industrial Revolution). Market efficiencies
don't factor into it at all, and you're a right-wing conservative if you
suggest otherwise.

I am not joking.

------
paulashbourne
65.93% of Software Engineering graduates end up working in the US after
graduation. Not a great statistic for Canada's tech industry.

~~~
pmalynin
I'm in this situation, that is I'm graduating next year and I already have a
job lined up in SV. Personally, there just isn't anything for me here. I hate
winter (depression for 7 months, anyone?). Everything is far. Entertainment is
sparse unless it involves 1) hockey or 2) drinking, or both. Pay is shit.
Prices are shit. Selection is shit (have you tried using Amazon CA?). Food, at
least where I am, is good but no seafood.

Above else, thought, in SV I just feel like I belong. On the train here, an
old man snapped at me for reading a maths text with some anti-intellectual
line.

~~~
leonroy
Well.. grabbing the light rail in the Bay Area and changing at Santa Clara
around 9pm was an eye opening experience. Let’s just say an old man snapping
at my geeky reading would’ve been the least of my concerns.

I had one guy pushing a cart trying to sell me drugs, a bunch of school kids
leering at everyone and making a nuisance of themselves and just a general
feeling that everyone with any sort of reasonable level of income was not
using public transit.

I’m from London, where you’ll be on the tube train with everyone from cleaners
to financiers. It’s pretty democratic. Not so in San Jose at all. Very
depressing in fact.

~~~
octorian
Which train was this?

There are two major train systems going through the area. There's Caltrain,
which will be full of professionals if you ride it close to working hours.

Then there's VTA Light Rail, which is effectively "the bus on rails." Later in
the evening it will be full of the type you describe.

~~~
leonroy
Edited my post too late - it was light rail from Gish maybe to
Ohlone/Chynoweth. Had to change at Santa Clara.

~~~
ummonk
Yeah that's VTA. Not really used by professionals.

~~~
leonroy
But why isn’t it used by professionals? It seemed clean enough, punctual and
conveniently located as well as being reasonably priced. Is there an
alternative (besides owning a car) that I’m missing for travelling around the
conurbation of Sunnyvale, Santa Clara, San Jose et al.

~~~
ummonk
There isn't an issue with VTA itself (aside from maybe the expectation that it
companies would move their offices to locations accessed by VTA rather than
vice versa).

The South Bay is just really suburban and car-friendly, and the VTA was a
failure as a result because most people in the South Bay are happy travelling
by car don't need to use the VTA. In contrast, Caltrain is used to travel to
SF, which isn't car friendly, so a lot more professionals use it.

------
ahelwer
I'm a Canadian software engineer working in Seattle. One time on a flight back
to the homeland I sat next to a Canadian tech VC. We spoke about the tech
scene in Canada, and eventually she started complaining about how all the good
engineers leave for the States. I mentioned my experience with the massive 50%
pay gap in software engineer salaries, and she said something about how it was
the fault of the exchange rate and couldn't be helped. It was a ridiculous
excuse and the conversation died pretty quickly after that. If VCs want tech
talent, they better pony up the money.

~~~
bluGill
They don't actually want tech talent, they want CHEAP tech talent.

~~~
downrightmike
Hence the "hour of code" and "everyone should code" movements.

~~~
merinowool
Funny times we live in, people think as if this was something like hunting or
riding a horse. I wonder if in the history there was a moment where people
organised "hour of making baskets" or "everyone should write books"

~~~
DanAndersen
In times past, skilled professionals were more sensible and had guilds and
trade unions to protect their value. It's funny to see how tech megacorps are
easily able to subvert programmers' "passion" and "hacker attitude" to promote
programs that devalue their labor.

------
chipuni
Compare and contrast:
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-20/h-1b-work...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-20/h-1b-workers-
are-leaving-trump-s-america-for-the-canadian-dream)

( Hacker News discussion at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16887739](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16887739)
)

~~~
arcticbull
Yeah, that article focuses on H-1B workers, which is a much different dynamic.
H-1Bs are available for 2 calendar days in April, cost $6-10,000 all in, and
you wind up with a 33% chance of starting your job in October -- and a 67%
chance of being told to try again next year. Then if you move to another job
you often lose your place in the very long green card line most of these
people are in.

Canadians (via NAFTA) are in a much different visa situation. Access to the
same jobs, but the TN-1 status costs $50USD, is adjudicated at the border with
no caps or quotas, and is valid for 3 years, indefinitely renewable (so long
as you promise not to renew it indefinitely).

It makes sense to me that people tired of the total lack of security and
reason in the H-1 line head to Canada after a few years job experience in the
bay to make them extra desirable. And Express Entry [1] means they can have
permanent residency in 6 months or less. Whereas Canadians in the NAFTA line
go south for the 3X pay. I'm really curious how many of us (I'm in that boat)
end up coming home after lining their pockets.

[1] [https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-
citizenship/se...](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-
citizenship/services/immigrate-canada/express-entry/works.html)

------
londons_explore
The same is true of most of the rest of the world.

Smart computer scientists go to silicon valley unless they're tied down with
commitments they can't move.

Doesn't bode well for the future of all other countries.

~~~
thesimon
>Smart computer scientists go to silicon valley

Is it really that easy though for the rest of the world? As an european
developer AFIAK there a basically two visas

* H-1B: Hard to get the quota as some big companies abuse it for cheap work

* L-1: Requires 1 year of working at the european branch of the company

H-1B seems really difficult to get, is the L1 easier? At the end of my studies
at the moment and considered Silicon Valley, but dismissed the idea due to
visa issues and the high cost of living.

~~~
mrkstu
I'd like to see quotas based on population for various countries- China and
India would still get the lions share, but that would allow Europe and other
geographies to get a fair number in to, so the big Indian body shops don't
snap everything up.

------
maerF0x0
Some reasons to stay in Canada:

* Your spouse will not be able to work on your visa (TN / H1B)

* "Full insurance coverage" does not mean for your spouse. Be prepared to pay for a delivery if you want to have children

* Your child will have much higher post-secondary student loans

* Crime, Firearms et al.

IMO coming to SV is a young/single person's game (hence braindrain from
grads). But a bad idea for established people or people who want a family /
social safety.

~~~
thrywayhn
I disagree. The income disparity increases at senior levels. I hit a ceiling
in Toronto where I hard trouble growing my career and making more than
$180,000 CAD TC. Moving to silicon valley my experience was able to fetch over
$500,00 USD TC. Sure it meant that for a year and a half my spouse can't work
but that's not a big deal.

~~~
maerF0x0
> able to fetch over $500,00 USD

By far this not the case. Most will be around 1/3rd that (according to the
salary reports i've read) .

~~~
peripitea
As someone who works/hires in the field, the salary reports are all wrong. I
have not seen a single one yet that was close to accurate. In software a 90th
percentile engineer can easily make 2-3x what a 50th percentile engineer
makes. (And it can get even crazier as you move higher up the tail.) This is
not true in virtually any other industry, which seems to cause problems for
the salary reports.

~~~
maerF0x0
Ok, thats all good. But is HN giving advice for the 90ths percentile or the
50th?

------
jayvanguard
Vancouver has changed a lot in the past 5 years. There are now two tiers of
tech pay: the smaller companies that pay from low to ok and then a handful of
SV companies that have moved in and are paying top tier money.

The dollar numbers are almost on par with the top SV salaries, albeit not with
the current exchange rate. That fluctuates though.

Amazon opening up a new HQ in Vancouver will just strengthen this. The
downside is that right now it is just a half dozen or so companies paying in
this top range.

~~~
brunoc
Very similar situation in Montréal. Handful of SV companies with offices here,
a few success stories, and everything else far far below in terms of
compensation.

------
12312131
I am Canadian and I would definitely choose a Canadian company over an
established American company if the salary was competitive. But it ain't.

------
_zachs
Only solution: take a pay cut as a CEO and offer a higher salary to
prospective engineers. Don't want to do that? Don't complain.

------
z0r
Want to stem the tide? Pay more. I miss Toronto but I won't go back unless my
visa situation falls apart.

------
gruez
>There is a cost to such a heavy brain drain: governments spend billions
subsidizing the cost of university education, while students who go on to work
for foreign companies help fuel the economic growth of those countries

there's a pretty simple fix for that: have the government bill/charge you the
subsidy when you're in university. it's not a student loan, and it doesn't
appear on your credit report. you pay it back when you start working (every
dollar you pay in taxes pays back $x that debt. you don't get charged intrest
or are obligated to pay it as long as you stay in canada, but if you move to
the US (or any other country), you start accumulating intrest and have to work
out a payment plan.

~~~
canistr
Well, there are a few issues with this.

Firstly, many Waterloo STEM students already do this based on the school's
curriculum of interweaving work and study terms. Fortunately and
unfortunately, these are exactly the students being lured away into the US.

Secondly the Ontario Government (i.e. Wynne Government and potentially NDPs),
has lowered tuition costs for families making under 160k by 30% with the
intention of further lowering the costs to (eventually) free in the future. In
other words, they fully intend to increase government debt to fund tuition
costs for all Ontario students (except if you're middle class and higher). But
guess what? Will this really have an impact on Waterloo STEM grads? Unlikely.
Increasing payback doesn't affect the students who CAN afford it.

------
lainga
Question - now that Amazon is bringing "3000 jobs" to Vancouver, are they
going to be paying wages consistent with their US employees, or with (or just
above) the local market rate?

~~~
monkeynotes
Salaries between Vancouver BC, and Seattle look to be comparable:

[https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/Amazon-Vancouver-Salaries-
EI...](https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/Amazon-Vancouver-Salaries-
EI_IE6036.0,6_IL.7,16_IM972.htm) [https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/Amazon-
Seattle-Salaries-EI_I...](https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/Amazon-Seattle-
Salaries-EI_IE6036.0,6_IL.7,14_IM781.htm)

~~~
flash_fort
Not really, USD vs CAD.

~~~
monkeynotes
[https://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-
index](https://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index)

Man, you are right, at home 1CAD buys 13% less than 1USD does at home, if I am
reading that correctly.

~~~
mattm
Yes because most of the goods come from the US so Canadians are in effect
paying USD but receiving CAD income.

------
jayonsoftware
I am a Canadian who lives in Michigan. Here is why a comp sci major moves to
US

1\. Low salary compared to US 2\. High Tax 3\. Cant afford a house in Toronto
4\. TN Visa makes easy to get a job in US.

------
melbourne_mat
The financial success of the titans of the tech industry is driven by
monopolies and heavy use of tax havens. The salaries are generous for these
reasons. Canada - and indeed any country - could easily do something about
this if it had the political will to do so. Strengthening and enforcing anti
trust laws would be one example; cracking down on aggressive tax avoidance
would be another. Then you'd at least have a level playing field for Canadian
companies.

~~~
adventured
Your tax premise is wrong. The proof is right there in the actual tax numbers.

Average world-wide statutory corporate tax rate: ~22%

National statutory rates: Netherlands 25%; Italy 24%; Norway 23%; Sweden 22%;
Portugal 21%; Russia 20%; Estonia 20%; Finland 20%; UK 19%; Czech 19%; Poland
19%; Belarus 18%; Lithuania 15%; Bulgaria 10%; Hungary 9%

Europe statutory average: ~19%

The effective rates are that much lower. I'll be sure to hold my breath until
Russia's 20% statutory rate starts producing vast tech giants.

Effective tax rates for 2016 (pre-tax changes):

Amazon 36%; Intuit 33%; Netflix 28%; TI 27%; Apple 25%; Oracle 22%; Priceline
21%; Intel 20%; Google 19%; VMWare 19%; Adobe 18%; Facebook 18%; Cisco 17%;
Qualcomm 16%; Microsoft 15%

So your premise is that the tech giants having effective rates comparable to
Europe, is what produced their extraordinary successes. Be sure to let Europe
in on the secret.

~~~
melbourne_mat
I'd choose a longer period than 1 year - the are always ups and downs from one
year to the next. Let's take Amazon as an example: their effective tax rate
from 2012 for 5 years is 12%. They can only pay that because they have armies
of tax accountants looking for loopholes. Small local businesses - the ones
who might compete with Amazon - can't afford those accountants so they pay the
statutory tax rates.

------
arcticbull
I guess the more interesting question (as one of the people mentioned in the
article) is how many of us go back after a few years, and how many stay in the
US?

I've seen a lot of my friends and coworkers returning home to their respective
countries in the last couple of years -- especially under the Trump
administration. Repatriating the experience gained from working at some of the
most successful businesses worldwide could be a huge benefit to Canada.

The question for me is, is it happening?

------
gesman
Miserable winters + low pay = brain drain.

------
Archio
I experienced this myself as a dual citizen that considered working in Canada.
I received an offer in the US that was $60k higher than offers I received from
Canadian startups.

Does anyone know what factors (cultural, political or other) contribute to
Canadian companies paying so much less than the American ones? You'd think
competitive businesses would notice this affect and adjust?

~~~
johan_larson
There simply are no large native top-tier tech companies like Amazon or Google
in Canada that need large amounts of top-tier talent. The local players are
much smaller and are competing for local talent with banks and insurance
companies. Less competition means lower wages. Because of permissive
immigration laws, there has also been a lot of immigration of software
developers from Asia and eastern Europe, which is great for the employers, but
exacerbates the problem for local talent.

------
pascalxus
In other industries, if workers are paid so cheaply in a city, this would
incentivize more companies to move there, as their labor costs are much lower.
But, for software engineering, companies aren't price sensitive. This is why
the bay area is so popular: most software companies here don't mind paying x2
to x3 the salary.

------
gagabity
Well this is scary, I am thinking of immigrating to Canada and get myself a
Tech job (Mobile Dev), its between Canada & Germany right now and I think I
have a better chance in Canada because I dont need to learn German to thrive
and the permanent residence has much more reasonable maintanance terms once
you get it.

~~~
graeme
You should be fine. This article is saying you'd earn _even more_ in the US.
But, Canadian tech workers do quite well compared to the median canadian. It's
just compared to US tech salaries that a large gap exists.

I don't think Germany has higher tech salaries.

------
NathanCH
So all you people making $100K+ salary, how much are you actually saving per
month?

I make half that, live in Vancouver, own a car, and still invest $1,000 a
month. I already have more money saved than 99% of Canadians and I'm only 27.

I imagine you Americans with six figure salaries are saving 3-5K per month?
Crazy.

~~~
enra
It’s not that hard to save at least half of your net salary, (4-6k a month)
and still live well & travel etc. On top of the base salary companies usually
offer stock options or shares than can be $100k-250k a year and bonuses. If
the company does well the value of the stock can increase or multiply.

------
graeme
Anyone know why Canadian salaries aren't adjusting upwards, or why more remote
work isn't going to Canadians?

And what about startups like Shopify. Do they pay competitive wages? If not,
how do they prevent their whole workforce leaving?

~~~
hello_moto
The gap difference between local-based companies and the US-based-with-branch-
in-Canada is at all-time high at the moment.

------
c2h5oh
Average house in Toronto or Vancouver costs about the same as in the valley.
Senior devs rarely make more then 100-110k USD. No wonder people, myself
included, at least consider moving.

~~~
jedberg
> Average house in Toronto or Vancouver costs about the same as in the valley.

I don't think that's accurate. I was just in Vancouver last week and took a
peek at the real estate listings. I could sell my 1734 sq ft house here in the
Bay Area, get one twice as big in Vancouver, and still have quite a lot left
over.

~~~
c2h5oh
You'd have hard time finding an acceptable house that size for less than 1.5M
USD in Toronto. Vancouver is slightly higher.

~~~
jedberg
Sure, but a house of that size in the bay area is $3.3M USD.

~~~
hello_moto
GVRD (Greater Vancouver) in general uses larger land size for detached house
(unfortunately, otherwise more properties can be built).

Anywhere else in Canada (Alberta, Ontario), detached houses tend to be
smaller.

In Burnaby (not Vancouver proper)

For CAD$1.7m, you'll get a new-ish duplex (4BR, 3BA).

For CAD $1m, you'll get a townhouse (3BR, 2.5BA).

Vancouver prices tend to hover around 10-30% more than the numbers I listed
above.

1BR Apartment in Vancouver probably cost $650-700k.

I think it's tricky to compare Apple to Apple (house X sqft vs same house Y
sqft) because it won't be. The comparison has to be generalized a little bit
with "Detached House vs Detached House in Desirable Location 'Y' ".

I think most Canadians (mostly Toronto and Vancouver) that are having hard
times when it comes to housing price are the ones who didn't jump to the
market before 2009, which is hard to do even back then because there aren't
many hi-tech companies paying high salary.

Salesforce hadn't opened an office until 2010. Amazon didn't explode the
compensation scene until 2016.

------
glbrew
I'm an American but hate the US tech/SF/NYC scene (sorry), and I don't care
much for money above reasonable living wage. Would it be easy for me to
relocate to Canada? I've always scratched off moving abroad for concern over
the complexity, but if there is a demand for me in Canada and it is easy it is
definitely something I would likely do. I'm not willing to go through 10 years
of legal craziness though which it what I have always imagined it to be.

------
istech
Canadian tech worker here who moved from the U.S.

Making mid 80s (CAN) not in a big city.

Where I live, this is a great salary and quality of life is very high. Life is
great for the family too. Hard to complain about any of that.

The tech scene, however is lacking. Opportunities lack. I wonder if I am doing
my career a disservice at times.

I'm considering looking for remote work with a U.S. company expand options,
but remote work is harder to come by for sure and that also limits options.

------
jackconnor
$73K to $130 - $140 is an enormous difference. Like it or not, they need to
pay more if they want top talent.

Not sure what they can do to change that, I'm seeing a lot of interesting
ideas in these comments. But, harsh truth, if you're paying that far below
market rates in the states, I would expect almost all of Canada's talented
software devs to look abroad, it's just not nearly enough money.

------
speby
I have heard the compensation is a big drag for tech jobs in CA. But I don't
really understand why that is. If tech hiring is so brutal, why wouldn't the
wages be more in line with what their neighbors just south in the USA are
paying? After all, if there is a brain drain and tech works from CA are
leaving (in part due to comp, presumably), then why not pay more?

------
thinkingkong
Artifical market capture. We used to be a cheaper alternative because of the
dollar, now its a business model. But we havent come to terms with the fact
that changing jobs is almost frictionless. Switch github and slack and youre
mostly on your way.

I really wish canadian companies would pay more, but its like game theory. Why
pay more when you dont “have to”?

------
eruci
That study means nothing. Canadians will move to Silicon Valley, or work on
Silicon Valley projects from here. Governments have little policy leverage on
borderless tech companies these days. (Disclosure: I'm a one man Canadian
company - geocode.xyz - happily working in Canada although most of my clients
are outside of Canada.)

------
gao8a
Something I didn't know until recently is how much better the wages are for
Canadians that work as contractors to large companies/banks that bill to their
own companies. I understand that this is probably out of reach to younger
folks with no experience but finally realized the appeal of a contractor here.

~~~
jm__87
Yes, if you are okay with forgoing benefits and vacation and know the hiring
manager, then you can often double your take home (if they really need you, or
you have a special skill set can ask for more obviously). Often contractors
are hired through recruiters and I've heard of at least one recruiter taking
an additional 50% on top of what was being paid to the contractor, which would
result in the salary you can negotiate being much less, so not going through a
recruiter makes this easier.

------
dghughes
In my small town I'm trying to find a junior sysadmin/network admin job but
99.8% of the jobs are developers. I say nay to the news people leaving in fact
they seem to be hiring!

And anytime I see news about Canada it seems Waterloo is mentioned making
amazing things, quantum radar was the last story I read about.

~~~
dkasper
Think you've got it backward. It's not that there aren't jobs in tech in
Canada, it's that the people who could fill them are leaving.

~~~
dghughes
Oh I understand that but from my perspective my small city of 70,000 seems to
have a really vibrant developer scene. Each year it seems to grow more it's
nice to see such a different industry do so well here.

Twenty years ago jobs here would have been food service or blue collar jobs
like farming, fishing, welding. Now there are people coming here to work many
are not locals which is also great they bring a new perspective on the world.

There wasn't even an official computer science program at the local University
until roughly the mid 90s. I made an attempt at a CS degree in the early 2000s
and the assistant prof (my age!) said he had to leave to get his CS degree at
another Uni.

------
ttul
IMHO, while everyone whines about Canada’s lackluster funding environment or
culture of risk avoidance, the real problem is SR&ED.

American investors and founders are always stunned to learn that a Canadian
small business can get about 60% of each engineer’s salary back in the form of
a refundable tax credit. This amounts to a silent partner in every Canadian
tech startup - a partner who is non dilutive and (crucially) who doesn’t care
at all whether the venture makes money.

Sounds great, but here's the catch: SRED allows companies that should have
died long ago to keep on living, draining the talent pool for projects that
are commercially “meh” at best.

And it doesn’t take an economist to figure out that if a country rewards non
performing companies through government incentives, investment will be crowded
out. And that’s exactly what we see in Canada. In essence, we don’t have great
venture capital because we “don’t need it”. SRED is the big game in town, and
it doesn’t reward companies that succeed commercially. It rewards far too many
losers.

We should get rid of SRED, let the bad companies perish, and then allow
private investment to fund risk.

------
SAS721
Since when is the whole US tech scene the same as Silicon Valley. All the
statistics they showed were Canadians moving to the US in general for tech
jobs. I am sure they are not all moving to Silicon Valley. Based on their own
statistics seems like they should be going to Austin.

~~~
adventured
The average programmer salary in the US is $90-$100k.

In Canada it's closer to $50k.

To put that salary into perspective, the _median_ Web developer salary in the
US is nearly $70,000 according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics. You can
go live in a small'ish third tier US city in states like Iowa or Wisconsin and
earn $75,000 per year as an ok Web developer, where houses cost $150-$200k. Or
remote from those locations and do even better.

The top 10% of programmers in the US earn over $135k. The median is around
$83-$85k. It's likely that the US median programmer pay is at least 2x that of
Canada's median.

------
dannylandau
A link that might throw a bit more light on the issue of salaries --
[https://www.daxx.com/article/it-salaries-software-
developer-...](https://www.daxx.com/article/it-salaries-software-developer-
trends-2018)

------
qaq
The Canadian salaries people are posting here are pretty much what you would
make in Ukraine wtf ?

------
trisimix
What percentage of those students aren't even nationals. I bet it's super
high. Canada needs to incentivize not only its students to stay, but foreign
students as well. The country has the potential for a large influx of highly
technical immigrants.

------
nchelluri
I work in Atlantic Canada remotely for a US company. It's great pay for where
I live.

I was offered three jobs at the same time. One, local, paid half of my current
job. Another, remote for a company in Vancouver, paid 71.5% of my current job.

It's a good thing to attempt!

------
jacobmoe
How many people leave, gain experience at a US tech giant, and then bring that
experience home? Didn't see it mentioned in the article but that would be
somewhat positive for Canadian tech, if it was happening in big enough
numbers.

~~~
surman
This is obviously a very small sample size, but I work at a startup in Toronto
and 3 of the 4 executives/managers started their career in the US and then
moved back to Canada once they got older (30-35yo)

------
giarc
One main caveat "graduates from three of the country’s top universities –
University of Waterloo, University of British Columbia and U of T – were
working outside Canada."

There are many other schools in Canada offering STEM programs.

~~~
chrisseaton
Oh great so they're only losing the best then?

~~~
giarc
Although I'm not arguing the fact that Canadian grads are going south, I'm
just pointing out the specific details which are important. Not only the fact
that the rates are for 3 schools in Canada, but also their techniques to find
people were to view their linkedin profiles. Why not go to Alumni Affairs at
these schools and get contact lists? Not everyone has a LinkedIn profile, and
by only contacting those with a profile, you are potentially introducing bias
into the selection.

~~~
chrisseaton
> Why not go to Alumni Affairs at these schools and get contact lists?

Because of data protection laws?

~~~
giarc
Alumni Affairs conducts surveys of their members all the time. The researchers
could have approached them, had alumni affairs send out a survey to particular
students and received a much better representation of the student population.

~~~
chrisseaton
You said why not 'get a contact list', not 'ask them to contact people for
you'.

~~~
giarc
That's called "splitting hairs".

------
criddell
I've often wondered why Canada doesn't have way more entrepreneurs. With a
strong social safety net, you can work on your startup and not have to worry
about losing your health insurance.

~~~
Raphmedia
You can also not do anything risky at all and not worry about losing your
housing. It's very comfortable to let life carry you around when you know that
nothing bad can happen to you.

Pessimism aside, there's not much education about the whole concept of being
an entrepreneur. Most people wouldn't even know where to start. Everyone is
being pushed to either college or a trade school right after high school. Not
once in high school has anyone told us that it was even possible to start your
own company or startup. I think the concept is simply out of everyone mind.

~~~
richardpap
What is different in Canada that prevents you from losing housing? What
happens if you can't pay rent?

~~~
tonyarkles
Well, there's a couple things related to employment:

\- "At-will" employment isn't a thing. Unless you get fired for gross
negligence or criminal reasons, you're going to get severence pay, which will
help bridge the gap while you look for a new job. Anecdotally, I've seen
people get fired for going on swearing rants at the owner, and the Labour
Board required the owner to pay severence.

\- Continuing with that, employers also understand the labour board's
interpretation of what it takes to let someone go for being bad at their job.
If you're past your probation period (nominally 3 months), you're probably
going to have a good idea that you're going to get fired. There's going to be
written documentation, Performance Improvement Plans, etc. You get a hint that
the writing's on the wall and you should start looking elsewhere.

\- Maternity/Paternity leave is federally mandated, and for a long time (35
weeks? 50 weeks? I'm not entirely sure, haven't gone through it). Having a kid
isn't going to result in you losing your job, unless your employer _really_
likes to live dangerously. The pay while on leave comes from the gov't, not
the employer.

\- If you're legitimately laid off (e.g. didn't quit), Employment Insurance
benefits are apparently reasonably straightforward to get (I've never used
this myself). They're capped and probably won't cover extravagant housing, but
you'll be able to get by, especially if you've saved a bit of money.

\- No real concern about healthcare costs bankrupting you.

Going back to the parent comment and projecting my current city (Regina, SK)
onto it... if you go ahead and get an IT/Software job in the provincial gov't
or one of the large employers here, there's a pretty good chance that you
could carry on there for 20-30 years. There's occasionally layoffs and things,
but as a whole there's a decent amount of stable ok-paying employment around
if you want it. Projecting my own take on it: it'll probably be uninspiring
and mind-numbing, but if you're looking for a 9-5 salary that can pay the
bills and contribute to an RRSP... go for it.

------
jacquesm
Canada should make their immigration process a bit easier, whatever brains
drain out to the US would be easily made up for by new entrants, who would
likely have more experience.

------
kazinator
Canada can fill jobs with skilled immigrants who can't easily go to Silicon
Valley because (need it be spelled out?) that's the name of a place in the
USA.

~~~
raverbashing
And for all their talk about "being welcoming", their treatment of immigrants
(even highly qualified ones) is left to be desired.

Maybe the market is saturated, but there's something about them being
oblivious to what happens outside of Canada (or even their city).

------
nautilus12
This is really surprising, you'd think the opposite would be happening by now.
I dont know why people are still putting up with paying silicon valley prices.

------
throwaway928439
Doesn't U.S. immigration get in the way? Or is everyone trying their luck on a
TN Visa?

The job postings that indicate visa assistance are the exception, rather than
the rule.

------
bwb
This whole article seemed pointless if they paid more people might stay, as
long as they don't care about the shitty weather.

Right?

They pay 73k, who wouldn't want to earn 40% more?

------
bondolo
I left a Canadian university in 1989 without graduating because the
opportunity to do a startup was more aligned with my career goals than the
dated CompSci program that was preparing me only for working for government,
banking or an oil company in 1970s style data processing environment.

If the startup failed I planned to go back to school elsewhere. The startup
was a success though and 6 years later I found myself looking for a job. I
searched in Canada but given a choice between moving 5400km and 2 timezones to
Ottawa where I knew no-one to work for Corel and moving 2200km and 1 timezone
to the bay area where I knew a couple of other expats and colleagues. I chose
silicon valley and the bay area.

I haven't regretted this choice though I have looked casually every couple of
years for opportunities in my then current field. It has never been fruitful;
the opportunities just aren't there. Before I left Canada I interviewed a guy
who had been on the software verification team at Intel for the 486. He was
desperate to move back and was willing to take almost anything to do so. I
assumed that one day I would be in the same position. I am now probably less
than a decade away from retirement so my main focus now is getting over the
finish line in the most efficient way possible. That probably means staying
put in the bay area.

I do know that sure as fuck that I won't be retiring in the bay area though;
I'd have to work 5-7 additional years to afford it. This place isn't worth
that. At all. I have considered Vancouver but honestly the expense of moving
to the most expensive market in Canada from one of the most expensive places
in the US just to try it out is also not worth it to me. I don't know where I
will end up living. Maybe Hawaii.

I do think it is essential that Canada do more to develop the domestic
technology and software industry and more than just international offices for
Google, Amazon, etc. Canadian universities are offering much better programs
(which is part of the problem!) Entrepreneurship and access to capital has
come a long way in Canada in the last 30 years and it is a lot easier to
attract international talent to Canada than it was. Provincial government
incentives for hiring and market development would help a lot. The federal
science and technology R&D tax credits helped our startup significantly. The
tax credits for export market development were inaccessible to startups and/or
companies which sold intellectual property which hurt.

I follow with interest the C100 and other efforts to advance Canadian
technology though I wish there was more focus on funding these efforts
domestically rather than coming hat-in-hand to SV for venture capital.

------
m23khan
meh -- this has always been the case with Canadian IT jobs, this is not some
new development. Nobody can realistically compete with USA's tech. sector --
US attracts best IT engineers from around the World.

Which means, not only does Canada lose out to USA - so do other IT giants such
as UK, China, India, etc.

------
partycoder
Brain drain is not specific to Canada, it affects American cities outside the
valley as well.

------
mickyc33
I am a Canadian who works at an 80 person Toronto based software company.
Canada, and Toronto have a lot they can learn from the Bay Area tech scene
when it comes to tech entrepreneurialism. It is definitely true that Canadian
culture tends to be more cautious with things like money and risk, and there
are certainly small c conservative currents embedded in the culture here. That
being said, I would suggest that there are things that can make the
Canadian/Toronto tech scene attractive that Silicon Valley lacks.

I have visited San Francisco a number of times, I have good friends who live
there and my job is connected to the San Francisco tech scene. San Francisco
is a very attractive place for young ambitious folks who want to dive head
first into the tech world and work with very talented people, get compensated
well, and further their career. It makes perfect sense to me that so many
young folks with software engineering backgrounds would flock to Northern
California to be a part of this. Frankly, my own decision to switch from
marketing into software development was motivated by a vacation to San
Francisco seven years ago (I'm now 34). At that time, if I had the means to
move to San Francisco and work for a tech startup I would have done it in a
heartbeat. San Francisco is the best place in the world to start a tech
company with global ambitions. Getting to be a part of something like that is
a wonderful experience.

All of that being said, I do not think that the ethos of completely immersing
yourself in your work and being singularly driven towards professional success
that is prominent in Silicon Valley is necessarily for everyone, or satisfying
throughout all phases of an individual's life. I think in Canada (specifically
in Toronto), in the tech industry people tend to work less hours than in San
Francisco, giving themselves more time for other things in their life: non-
work friends, family, non-work activities etc. In addition to this, the tech
community within Toronto (much like New York) is situated within a larger city
with a diverse set of industries. Friends of mine work in film, media
companies, not for profits, finance, etc. Amongst the people I know in the San
Francisco tech world it seems to be quite common for people's social lives to
revolve around their jobs and to have a significant portion of their friends
be either from their work or work at venture backed tech companies like they
do. I personally think there is a lot of value to be gained from social
connection with people who are different from you or who at least work on very
different types of challenges to the ones you work on.

All of this to say, I think Toronto can learn a ton from the SF tech
community, but places like Toronto have some things going for it that SF
doesn't necessarily excel at.

------
epx
I surely write off a country that forces men to pay child support for ex-
stepchildren.

------
someone454
Did t we read here a week or so ago the All the H1Bs were leaving for Canada?

~~~
hello_moto
Probably maxed out in the USA and have 20+ years green card backlog.

Why not move to Canada for a few years, get citizenship and go back to the
USA?

------
throwaway84742
3x the comp -> 3x the drain. Pretty easy. Pay more.

------
Tiktaalik
I do have to say that while I had plenty of friends decamping from insanely
unaffordable Vancouver for Seattle and SF, interest in relocating from my
friend group has significantly cooled since Trump was elected. It helps that
tech in Vancouver is in a relatively good spot at the moment.

------
gshock
just two f%cking days ago it was the other way around: developers and
conventions are leaving the US to go to Canada because of Trump. Make up your
mind already.

~~~
Kelbit
There's no contradiction. Two things are happening here.

Foreigners in the US (H1B applicants) are heading up to Canada because the
immigration policies are more lax.

Canadian citizens from Canada are heading down to the US because the salaries
are higher, and under NAFTA Canadian engineers qualify for an easy-to-get
instant visa (TN status).

------
sloxslox
My son (who lives in NYC-he is dual US Canadian) told me of this site and
asked me to comment. I am in the medical field - most of this blog is about
tech but I think I can add to the medical brain drain. In a nutshell - I was
born and rasied in Saskatchewan - enrolled McGill University after high school
and spent 12 years there - BSc, MCCM, FRCSC - am a surgeon. I went to UCSF
early 80's to do a microsurgical fellowship and spent 4 years there. At that
point still a ground-thumping, flag-waving Canuck. Moved back to Canada with
some special skills - for a number of reasons became outraged and fed up with
how the Socialized Canadian Medical System treated its docs and decided to
leave after 5 years. Married a US Nurse, got a green card and moved back to
the Bay Area (good job offer). Have been a Professor Stanford University 28
years and am retiring. Got my US Citizenship last year. I plan spending the
rest of my life in the US. If I was asked as a kid if this would be my life I
would have told then they were nuts. Can add to this later if any wants.

------
CNJ7654
Listen, I'm all for people looking out for themselves and getting out of Leaf
Land, but to go through all that effort to end up in Cali! That's even worse!

------
s2g
This has been a thing for a long time.

We backfill with people from elsewhere who can't get US visas.

and another study that demonstrates the silliness of lumping all of STEM
together. overall, 1 in 4. In CS, 6 in 10.

Roughly doubling pay would help. Even then if I really want to work on cool
stuff I'm probably heading south.

------
anothergoogler
This is not news.

~~~
Clobbersmith
This was the case when I graduated ~12 years ago, if anything the situation
has got slightly better. When I graduated if I wanted to work in software my
options were a bank or a consulting company. At least now you can get more
stereotypical software jobs.

~~~
refurb
This was the case back in the 1980's. Nothing has really changed.

------
iandanforth
Alternate perspective: Canada is becoming increasingly attractive for Machine
Learning / AI.

[http://www.jfgagne.ai/canadian-ai-
ecosystem-2018-en](http://www.jfgagne.ai/canadian-ai-ecosystem-2018-en)

I'm a sucker for California weather but other than that I'd much rather work
in a lower-cost country with universal healthcare and without the stigma
associated with the United States when traveling abroad.

------
tamersalama
Posted verbatim from another thread [1]:

I came to Canada as software professional from the middle east. At one point,
Canada had a glimmer of hope in attracting tech talent. However, on the
ground, tech professionals are 'forced' to start up their consulting
companies, get hunted down by taxes, threatened daily with outsourcing
initiatives (extremely low caliber), and have no prospect of career
advancement. Either this or accept a meager pay.

Why wouldn't they look elsewhere?

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15257363](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15257363)

------
chx
First, a little bit of background: back in 1993, I uploaded Volkov Commander
to Simtel FTP, they complained to the university I was uploading pirated
software and I got booted from the university VAX. Noone gave a hoot about
explanation or the truth.

In 2001, Dmitry Sklyarov was arrested. When I was choosing where to immigrate
in 2006, this arrest was a factor in ruling out the USA (I was in a position I
could choose).

In 2017, Marcus Hutchins was arrested. Since then I have not even entered the
USA and will not unless badly pressed for business. This costs me hundreds of
dollars when travelling to Europe but the risk is unacceptably high now.

I do not want to second guess everything I do. I do not want a simtel like
misunderstanding to become a federal felony and possibly jail time.

I live in Vancouver BC, in safety and freedom. And I can't imagine how a
freeminded tinkerer of software (deliberately not using "hacker" here to avoid
a misunderstanding) could possibly choose to leave this for the danger the US
is because of the DMCA and CFAA.

