
150-Year Green Card Wait for Indian Immigrants With Advanced Degrees - varunsaini
https://www.cato.org/blog/150-year-wait-indian-immigrants-advanced-degrees
======
djrogers
This is _one_ of the enormous penalties we as a nation have to pay because
neither of our political parties actually wants to solve the illegal
immigration issue.

Republicans get to use ‘illegal immigrants taking jobs’ as a stick to beat
democrats with, and progressives use cries of racism to rally support amongst
Latino voters.

Meanwhile anyone who espouses common sense ideas such as reforming our
immigration policy gets called a racist and ‘anti-immigrant’.

~~~
addicted
Umm reforming the immigration policy is exactly what progressives are calling
for. The only difference is that the conservatives want to somehow deport
everyone who is here and has been here for decades to somewhere while the
“progressives” recognize that they are an integral part of the economy and
want them to pay a penalty, and stand in the back of the line for American
citizenship while they are provided recognized status so they can live in the
country legally in the meanwhile.

This isn’t both sides not wanting to do anything. This is both sides having
very different solutions.

All of which is irrelevant to the article since this is discussing legal
immigration.

~~~
ta76567656
Conservatives (the politicians) _pretend_ to want to deport illegal immigrants
to get votes. They don't actually want to do it because a lot of businesses
depend on them for cheap labor. You don't even need to deport anyone, just
start actually enforcing laws that require employers to check employee
eligibility. Fewer jobs for illegal immigrants would mean less incentive for
them to come. That nobody has tried this shows IMO that nobody (in power)
actually wants it. They just want a few examples to grandstand about for
votes.

 _pay a penalty, and stand in the back of the line for American citizenship
while they are provided recognized status so they can live in the country
legally in the meanwhile._

This is basically amnesty/open-borders. Not arguing for or against, but it is.
There is no "line" for citizenship, after five years of permanent residency
anyone qualifies. The "line" is for the permanent residency (green card), and
you have to qualify to even get in the line, that's why people come illegally.
So what's the new qualification? "already in the country"? Then what about the
people here 20 years from now? Is it a rolling admission? If not then you have
the same problem as before. If yes, then the policy is 'open borders' possibly
with a qualification of "can avoid getting caught for X years".

If you don't find open borders acceptable the only reasonable compromise I can
think of is a capped category that anyone can apply for, where the cap is
adjusted as needed. Somewhat ike the current Diversity Visa (Green Card
lottery) which is capped at around 50K per year, though that cap rarely
changes.

~~~
UncleEntity
> That nobody has tried this shows IMO that nobody (in power) actually wants
> it.

Sheriff Joe tried this and ended up with a federal indictment, a pardon from
Trump and (apparently) is now running for congress.

------
cletus
So this is the result of several factors that are at odds with each other.

1\. There is no per-country quota on H1Bs

2\. There is a per-country quota on EB-1/2/3 GCs

3\. And this is crux of the problem: H1Bs are issued indiscriminately, most
problematically to so-called bodyshops.

There are various proposals to fix the immigration backlog. There's one bill
that would get rid of per-country quotas. I wonder what that would do to the
backlog of everyone. I kind of see this one as a nonstarter.

Bizarrely, it's the current (otherwise abhorrent) administration that is the
first to even talk about fixing the real problem, which is (3). H1Bs are a
lottery now. When the likes of FAAMG companies can't hire people because the
likes of Infosys and Tata are flooding applications for people who will
essentially become indentured servants, that's a problem.

Infosys settled a visa fraud case with the US government several years ago
including a payment of millions of dollars. How exactly are they still able to
apply for visas?

There are problems with ranking applicants based on salary (or total
compensation) as the one proposal would do. This would potentially drown out
lower-paid STEM fields that have legitimate need with FAAMG SWEs. Then
again... that's still probably better than the current system.

People have also complained "well you can't hire graduates if you rank on
salary". That's true. But at the same time, are newly minted college graduates
fulfilling unsatisfied demand for specialty occupation? Or just being used to
lower labour costs?

~~~
throwaway12122
Every time the topic of H1B comes up, people bring up Infosys. Why is that?
Why is nobody talking about the 100 thousand Indian students who come to US
every year? Who is employing them? These students are one of the primary
abusers of the H1B system. They go through lengths to stay in US. They will
settle for low salary so that they don't have to leave the country. Literally
every scam I saw in H1B is from body shops in US, not the Indian companies.
Indian companies do abuse it, by forcing the employees to sign a bond that if
they want to resign, they have to come back to India and serve a 3 months
notice (I know a Indian arm of an American product company who is top 1 or 2
in what they do with a 12 months notice policy by the way) or pay 5-10 lakhs
Indian rupee if they want their experience certificate. And the pay offered is
also only half or less of what they charge the customer.

>IT industry body Nasscom on Monday came out in defence of its members TCS and
Infosys, saying the two accounted for only 7,504—8.8%—of the approved H1B
visas in 2014-15.

[https://www.livemint.com/Industry/pHkRcTtIoKd8MkTkBNdtSN/Inf...](https://www.livemint.com/Industry/pHkRcTtIoKd8MkTkBNdtSN/Infosys-
TCS-accounted-for-only-88-of-total-H1B-visasNass.html)

~~~
abc_lisper
> Every time the topic of H1B comes up, people bring up Infosys. Why is that?

They must be partial to Infosys. I mean, what did it do.
[https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-
Sponsor.asp...](https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx)

> These students are one of the primary abusers of the H1B system.

Right, the startups in bay area, good groups at Apples, Googles and Facebooks
of the world are filled with people from Infosys ;)

>Literally every scam I saw in H1B is from body shops in US

That's partially true; I will let it slide

I understand you are frustrated, but you are barking up the wrong tree. The
trouble is the easy jobs i.e, low-skilled in high-tech, are already filled.
For example, see clouts of Infosys employees in some US companies. These days,
people have two options, be really good at what they do, or find a clout to
stick to. May be you had a hard time sticking to the Infosys clout(I am not
surprised, given that you like to think). Don't blame it on others. If
anything, most of the technically competent desi people in US have a US
degree.

~~~
mavelikara
> If anything, most of the technically competent desi people in US have a US
> degree.

What I understood GP to be saying is that "most desi people in US having a US
degree are technically incompetent".

Both these view points are not incompatible, and true in my experience.

~~~
abc_lisper
Good point!

------
temp-dude-87844
How does this wait play out in real life? I doubt any company actually waits
15 years, and clearly not lengths exceeding a human lifespan, to fill a
position, even if it went through the trouble of filing an I-140 and certified
that zero US workers were available.

So what do all these applicants do in the meantime? Are they overseas? Are
they in the States on dual-intent visas? Are they in some creative legal
limbo?

If somehow, in the meantime, they obtain a green card or work permit, are they
allowed to take that same position, if it's still open -- clearly, they can
accept any other position, as they're fully allowed to work in the States, but
can they take the one EB-2 and I-140 was filed for originally?

~~~
rahul003
After you apply for a green card and cross the first step (takes about a year
or two), then your H1B visa can be extended indefinitely. So the applicant can
continue working. The company doesn't care because in this scenario they have
an employee who'll think 10 times about leaving even if they are not being
treated well. That's not to say the employee can't leave and join another
company who's willing to make the necessary adjustments to the green card
process. But it does mean that the applicant is forever in this limbo without
freedom, can't plan long term, and has to leave the country in a week or so if
he/she loses their job.

~~~
throwaway12122
>then your H1B visa can be extended indefinitely

This used to be the case. But not any more. A lot of people I know are getting
RFEs and rejections for their extensions after i-140. I am actually one of
them. Got my I-140, then got RFE. I am in a state that gives license based on
your visa and won't renew license unless I have an approved work permit. So, I
cannot renew my license, and has been using ride sharing for the last 1 month.
Its going to be another 1-2 months before I get a decision on whether I can
stay. Fun times. They always find creative ways to make your life difficult.
Its amusing they refuse to give me license, but the state has no problem
taxing me, even for the income I get in India.

Trump talked about self deportation. He succeeded at least in my case. I am
done with all this immigration bull __ __. I hope I can find a job in India
soon so that I can escape from here.

------
partycoder
The dilemma of intolerance is that tolerating intolerance makes you
intolerant.

Some forms of intolerance: believing in gender superiority, a caste system,
exceptionalism based on ethnicity or country of origin. If you believe in
those things, you might have a tolerance problem, no matter where you are
from.

I try to be as tolerant as possible, and do not have negative views against
immigration. But if you are intolerant I will have a hard time getting along
if you openly express those views or if you apply those at work.

------
varunsaini
I am one who can be in this boat and don’t know what to do yet.

~~~
sus_007
I am thinking about coming aboard this particular boat i.e come to the USA.
What would you do if you were me ?

~~~
toweringgoat
Canada, Europe, Australia, NZ. There are places with Bay Area style salaries,
there are other places with lower salaries - either way, you'll be living a
comfortable life since costs will be lower than Bay Area.

You'll universally find a much better healthcare system (e.g. health insurance
not tied to your employer), with the exception of the UK. You'll find a humane
immigration system that doesn't kick you out if your employer decides to screw
you over (again with the exception of the UK). You'll generally have some form
of state support if you lose your job instead of being thrown to homelessness.
Etc etc. The US is a second world country nowadays.

And any children you might have will be far safer, and at lower risk for
severe mental health problems.

~~~
mFixman
None of those places have anywhere near Bar Area salaries: London, by far the
city with the highest salaries in the West outside of the US, has salaries
that are 70% of the ones you'd get in California before counting a significant
amount of extra income and sales taxes and almost similarly ridicolous
housing.

On the other hand, the private insurance in the UK that's usually included in
big tech companies' work is absolutely top-notch.

~~~
guitarbill
In absolute values, those salaries are the highest, but for quality of living,
that's largely irrelevant unless your hobbies need large amounts of capital.

For example, in big cities in Europe, you can easily and happily get by
without a car, which saves a lot. You have more vacation. No tipping.
Easier/more obvious ways to save for retirement. Your kids not having to do
active shooter drills at school. Cheaper/free schools and universities.
Maternal/paternal leave. Etc, etc.

So if you have a family, or thinking of starting a family, it's worth
factoring that stuff in.

------
mankypro
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeboat_ethics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeboat_ethics)

------
known
97% people in India are poor by global standards
[http://idronline.org/addressing-inequality-in-
india/](http://idronline.org/addressing-inequality-in-india/)

They'll wait for 250 years

------
ng12
Isn't it a false assumption that immigrant workers should eventually get Green
Cards? The whole point of the H1B system is to temporarily fill shortages of
skilled workers, not to be a path for permanent immigration.

~~~
mavelikara
The point of H-1B is to both fill a skilled job temporarily, and as a path to
permanent immigration. This is called _dual intent_ technically.

~~~
ng12
From the DOL:

> The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise
> obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by
> authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not
> otherwise authorized to work in the United States.

The focus seems to be on the temporary nature.

~~~
mavelikara
> The focus seems to be on the temporary nature.

For the DOL, yes. For you too, maybe. But for the individual involved,
probably both intents are in equal importance, and that is perfectly legal and
moral.

------
matz1
Not a bug: working as intended

------
pfarnsworth
Is it really discrimination if the system is already known to have a per-
country limit, and yet more and more people from that country continue to file
for Green Cards? Indians who come to the US these days know for a fact there
is a 10+ year wait for a Green Card, so they're the ones taking their chances.
If they scream discrimination, I call BS on that.

It sucks that the system is the way it is, and I think a point-based system
like Canada is far more efficient, but it's not discrimination. If there are
already known rules, and one particular country comes in an adds a massive
amount of applications, you can't turn around and yell discrimination.

~~~
scarejunba
Yes, dude. If I already know you’re discriminatory and I still apply, you’re
still discriminatory. It’s in the antecedent of the clause. Just apply basic
propositional logic.

~~~
jiminy_john
If I know that by jumping off of a bridge I will get hurt but I still jump, it
is the bridge that is at fault.

Brilliant logic on your side!

~~~
scarejunba
Haha, the irony of it all.

Whether you know that jumping off a bridge will hurt has no impact on whether
it will hurt. It's not a question of fault. It's a question of fact.

