
Electric version of Renault's low-cost Kwid - prostoalex
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/29729/the-worlds-most-important-electric-car-is-launching-now-and-its-not-a-porsche-or-tesla
======
InTheArena
By Edward Niedermeyer September 9, 2019

Oh. Nevermind.

\----

Edited - from the downvotes, it appears that people are not aware - this is
the same guy who was the editor in chief of truthabout cars when they ran
their infamous "Tesla Death Watch" / Tesla killer articles. He constantly re-
iterated that the company was doomed before the roadster, then before the S,
then before the X, then before the 3. He accused the company of Fraud in 2009,
and has heralded every single vehicle from this to the leaf, to the Taycan and
i-pace (how's that working for you Audi?) to the Fisker Karma as "tesla-
killers".

How about articles like this:

[https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/04/teslas-model-s-
pon...](https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/04/teslas-model-s-ponzi-scheme-
rakes-in-26m-at-least/)

He's about as accurate as Elon Musk is punctual. He appears to be the natural
anti-matter to the most extreme of the Tesla fans.

But remember it's Toyota that is actually the disruptor:

"Toyota is no stranger to disruption, having overturned the global car
business over the course of decades. But rather than high-concept, visionary
technology and hype, it was Toyota's mastery of the culture of manufacturing
that drove it from bit player to industry titan. Toyota emphasizes kaizen, or
continuous improvement, not Musk's mercurial style. And based on a scan of
quality complaints at various Tesla owner forums, it seems Musk could learn
more from Toyota's automotive disruptions than the other way around. Auto
industry success is a marathon, not a sprint ... and at current volumes, Tesla
is barely walking."

~~~
AndrewBissell
What's your issue with this paragraph about Toyota, exactly? I get that
kaizen, with its emphasis on boring notions like quality control, slow &
careful iteration, etc. is at odds with fashionable Silicon Valley ideas of
blitzscaling or an under-five-years "cash out, bro down" company cycle, but
it's undeniably true that Toyota did revolutionize the auto industry.

~~~
mikekchar
Indeed. I'm anxiously waiting Toyota's entry into the EV market. In Japan they
have a fair amount of catchup given that the entire fast charging
infrastructure is basically being run by Nissan and Mitsubishi... However I'm
sure they have something up their sleeves. I'm extremely interested in the
fact that Toyota has chosen Panasonic as their battery supplier. Toyota and
Panasonic's headquarters are only a little over an hour a way by Shinkansen...
If _I_ were Toyota I would be wandering over to Osaka fairly frequently to
make sure that my company was getting more than our fair share of the
available batteries...

~~~
taneq
They keep doubling down on hydrogen even when it's clearly not working. Other
than that they seem perfectly content to keep cranking out vehicles with their
once groundbreaking but now aging hybrid synergy drive system. Unfortunately I
think it'll take a change of guard at Toyota's highest levels to get them back
in the innovation game.

~~~
mikekchar
This is the second time I've heard that, but I see no evidence from here in
Japan that they are doing _anything_ with hydrogen these days. Can you point
me to some references?

Edit: I should point out as well that they are actually building EV cars
_right now_. They have a joint venture with several other Japan car
manufacturers. They will start selling for the 2020 sales year (which I expect
will start pretty soon).

~~~
taneq
They're not _doing_ anything with hydrogen, they're just hanging onto the
"hydrogen future" bluff that U.S. car companies used to kill the CARB EV
mandate and have now all but abandoned.

I mean, check the tag line on Toyota's own site:
[https://www.toyota.com/alternative-fuel/](https://www.toyota.com/alternative-
fuel/)

Hybrid. Plug-in Hybrid (yay?). Fuel Cell EV.

That's their game plan. Even then the only plug-in hybrid is the Prius, none
of their other cars seem to be plug-in capable.

------
gok
Low cost EVs will indeed be what kills ICE cars, particularly in the
developing world where they can double as general electricity storage.

That said:

> Just as Tesla has had its doubters among mainstream auto industry-watchers,
> the electric Renault Kwid has had its doubters among hardcore Tesla fans

Unmentioned is that the author of this article is decidedly in the former
category, and has been writing about the imminent demise of Tesla since around
2007.

~~~
ineedasername
Have any cars been able to use their batteries as general purpose "plug in
anything" type of power source? That would really expand the appeal
significantly.

~~~
fyfy18
Nissan has their 'vehicle-to-home' system that does exactly this. As far as I
know it's only been released in Japan so far, but all their LEAF cars from the
last few years support it.

[https://www.nissan-
global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/vehicle...](https://www.nissan-
global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/vehicle_to_home.html)

[https://thedriven.io/2019/07/11/nissan-sees-leaf-as-home-
ene...](https://thedriven.io/2019/07/11/nissan-sees-leaf-as-home-energy-
source-says-tesla-big-battery-waste-of-resources/)

[https://blog.nissan-global.com/EN/?p=4866](https://blog.nissan-
global.com/EN/?p=4866)

------
cj
When there are articles about electric cars on HN, I often see people in the
comments proclaim that the end of gas cars is near.

Serious question: How do electric cars work for people who live in apartments
without a dedicated parking spot (street parking only)? Or more common,
someone without a garage without an outdoor outlet nearby?

Is the assumption that charging stations need to become even more ubiquitous
than gas stations (assuming the car needs to charge for longer than people are
willing to wait at a charging station)?

~~~
kalleboo
> _Is the assumption that charging stations need to become even more
> ubiquitous than gas stations_

Electricity is already ubiquitous, we just need to install the chargers.

E.g. trials have started to install EV chargers in lamp posts
[https://www.driving.co.uk/news/lamp-post-powered-electric-
ca...](https://www.driving.co.uk/news/lamp-post-powered-electric-car-charging-
points-arrive-london/)

~~~
virgilp
I don't know... it also requires: \- charging cables that can't easily be
stolen, between my car & lamp post. \- infrastructure that allows me to pay
for consumed electricity, and doesn't allow random person to steal it (or are
we assuming electricity will be free?)

I mean, I'd love to see that, but it doesn't look likely in the near future,
unfortunately. I still think it's more likely that we'll have fast-charging
batteries that you can refill in a few minutes, rather than charger-at-every-
parking-spot.

~~~
kalleboo
> _infrastructure that allows me to pay for consumed electricity, and doesn 't
> allow random person to steal it_

Smart meters have existed for quite a while now. An electricity meter with LTE
and a card reader is not a difficult thing to make (not very different from a
parking meter)

~~~
virgilp
Yes, but having one smart meter at each lighting pole? Neah, sorry, I don't
see that happening in my city. (we don't have "smart parking meters" either.
In fact, we have no parking meters at all....)

------
derekp7
I'm thinking that these things would be great for when the teenagers need a
car (I'm referring to those of us in suburban / rural areas). They need a car
to get to their mcjob, but with the limited range they won't be cruising all
over and getting into trouble. And the price (esp. for used ones) should be
very cheap, and low maintenance.

~~~
TylerE
You wouldn’t want your kids driving one of those. They are death traps. NCAP
Gabe the Kwid _zero_ stars.

[https://auto.ndtv.com/news/india-made-renault-kwid-scores-
ze...](https://auto.ndtv.com/news/india-made-renault-kwid-scores-zero-stars-
in-asean-ncap-crash-test-1881708)

~~~
cj
Wait a second... this car doesn't have anti-lock brakes?

~~~
infecto
My current Toyota Yaris from 2008 does not have anti-lock brakes.

~~~
kalleboo
That's actually kind of shocking. I assumed ABS was mandatory, or at least
standard across the industry. Looks like it became mandatory in 2004 in the
EU, 2013 in the US (alongside requiring electronic stability control). In
comparison, the US has mandated airbags since 1998.

[0] [https://drivetribe.com/p/are-anti-lock-brakes-a-mandatory-
A_...](https://drivetribe.com/p/are-anti-lock-brakes-a-mandatory-
A_I2LRctSd2qJNWA6_RAOg?iid=VVwIoTU1Qv-yy9AKVJxo5A)

~~~
TylerE
ABS actually isn’t required in the US at all. Every car had it because other
things that are required use the same sensors, but there is no law on the
books.

------
gandalfian
$8700 for a 30kw/h battery? I suspect you are renting the battery for a
monthly fee, common practice with Renault's. Otherwise forget the car just
sell the battery on its own.

~~~
rasz
Chinese kWh, Chinese range figures. If you ever bought a 5000mAh 18650 battery
from ebay/amazon you know whats going on.

------
m-i-l
Sounds like it is aiming to be the car equivalent of the smart feature phone
(see "The Hottest Phones for the Next Billion Users Aren’t Smartphones"[0]).
Definitely think there could be a big market for this sort of thing in some
countries.

Although more of a niche in the UK at least, we did have the G-Whiz[0] which
cost less than this. Even though production was stopped in 2012, I used to see
several regularly where I live until relatively recently.

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20562695](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20562695)

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REVAi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REVAi)

------
rafaelvasco
All it takes for EV's to explode and finally surpass combustion cars from the
market is to put a low cost, good enough quality electric car in the market.
Combustion engines must be put in the past. They're still better in some ways,
but that will change.

~~~
Leherenn
I think people often ignore charging issues, especially for city cars. Most
people live in flats with street parking, there's absolutely no infrastructure
existing at the moment to solve the problem that those people cannot charge at
night.

~~~
bdamm
I wonder how big a problem that really is. Folks in flats with street parking
also have good access to transit. Cities will become incentivized to convert
parking meters to charging stations using street light power. People often can
charge at work, and for some cars, rapid charging is an option. Also
autonomous driving taxis are coming, despite the challenges, and so more folks
might subscribe to a car as a service, either Uber or Zipcar. So between these
various changing transport options I wonder if flat dwellers parking their
commuting car on the street is something soon to be viewed as an anachronism.

~~~
ineedasername
I'd love to see it happen, but what's the incentive for cities to add
ubiquitous charging like that?

~~~
chillacy
Hopefully they get to make a lot of money from that.

~~~
ineedasername
I guess if apartment renters have no easy alternative the city could charge a
high premium, and it would be worth it to have overnight charging instead of
chasing down a station on your own time.

------
klingonopera
I believe _easily /quick replaceable/interchangeable batteries_ is one of the
simplest ways to make EVs go mainstream.

Yes, I know they weigh a lot, but you could have e.g. 10/20 cells weighing 50
kg each to offset that.

In many developing countries, you don't even need to refuel yourself, staff at
the gas station are willing to do that for you, so you don't even need to get
your hands dirty. I think gas/refueling stations should be backing this idea,
before they become non-existent.

Long recharge times can thus be avoided. Price-conscious consumers can
recharge over-night using a wall socket, keeping grid loads low(er).

Aging batteries wouldn't be an issue, and can be replaced, heck, even
upgraded! Buy a car with 250km range today, have it go 750km tomorrow, when
the tech matures, who knows.

...but all this would require car manufacturers to forgo half the selling
price and work together to develop a universal battery cell, so I'm doubting
this would ever happen.

But I see no loss for the consumer with this strategy though, and believe that
this should be highlighted in the public discourse.

~~~
mikeash
Charging times just aren’t that bad, and they continue to improve. Tesla has a
battery swap station on the busy SF-LA route. They shut it down because almost
nobody used it.

~~~
klingonopera
Interesting, I hadn't heard of this yet.

I'm guessing nobody used it, because it was for the exclusively for the Model
S, which has good range and few owners, and apparently you even needed to make
an appointment for it.

It's not "refueling", it's "replacing" the battery, what Tesla did.

[https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-shuts-down-battery-swap-
prog...](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-shuts-down-battery-swap-program-for-
superchargers/)

~~~
mikeash
This was back when the Model S was the only Tesla available in any real
numbers. California had a ton of them. They are long range, but not long
enough to do SF-LA without charging. Long trips should be the ideal case for
battery swaps, because it’s a situation where you really do have to wait for
the car, and can’t just charge while you sleep or whatever.

------
woodandsteel
I am a huge Tesla fan, but I agree with the author, this car could turn the
world upside down.

A few added points. One is this car is not going to bankrupt Tesla. That's
because it is selling to different markets.

The second is that battery prices keep falling, and so the price of this car
will too.

The third is that other manufacturers are going to take this car apart and
figure out how to make a similar one, so in a few years we will see a whole
bunch of them.

I have said it before and I will say it again. After many years of wishes and
slow progress, the EV revolution is finally starting to take off.

------
aitchnyu
Tangential, but why are plug-in series hybrids not selling? They could make
better use of anaemic grids in India. For example my office was running on
backup power for several hours. I left at 7 pm in the rain, saw linemen climb
up a damaged transformer in a narrow congested road where buses zip by.
Elsewhere, farmers' pumps blow up transformers. A hybrid could power weekday
commutes and maybe 25% of a weekend trip, from private solar panels, well
before powerful public grids are installed.

------
pkaye
How did the charge it driving across India? I presume charging stations are
not yet common nor are there garages there. Did they just slow charge it
overnight through some wall outlet?

~~~
adambard
The drive across India took place in a non-electric Kwid.

------
tibbydudeza
I don't see the point of own an electric car if your electricity grid is still
dependent on base load polluting coal or gas fired power stations.

Just that feel good factor of owning a Prius or Tesla without addressing the
root cause.

~~~
dx034
You still avoid local pollution, noise and overall CO2 emissions are all lower
pretty much anywhere in the world. In addition to this, a larger amount of
electric cars that can work as storage can help greatly to increase the share
of renewables (e.g. by offering lower prices at times of overcapacity).

It's a hen-egg problem. You need large storage capacity to enable renewables.
But without renewables, storage isn't utilized and therefore not profitable.

------
superfluousText
Thoughts on how this compares to the Nissan Leaf?

~~~
djrogers
It doesn't - the leaf is s thoroughly modern vehicle with all of the safety
and comfort that implies, whereas this is not.

------
keyle
Anyone else notice how thin the tyres are? Kind of reminds me of the CV 2ch :)

------
mark-r
I had a low-cost Renault once, the 1981 Le Car. Never again.

~~~
icebraining
Why? My father had a Le Car (aka Renault 5) and I don't remember any major
problems with it.

~~~
braythwayt
n=1, may I introduce a different n=1?

~~~
icebraining
I'm not trying to disprove their experiences, I'm genuinely wondering what
problems the car had.

~~~
mark-r
It wasn't that the car had problems per se, it was just that it was so obvious
that they had taken cost cutting a touch too far. The manual choke was a good
example, you had to remember to engage it before starting the car and
gradually turn it off. The tires were held on with only 3 lug nuts. The
exhaust manifold came out through the wheel well, which eventually destroyed
my car - it developed a leak and started the rustproofing material on fire.

~~~
icebraining
Thanks! I was probably too young to grasp those annoyances, and the car was
destroyed in an accident, not by old age.

------
simonebrunozzi
I hate the title of this HN post. Why? Because it forces me to click through
to read which car the article is talking about.

I would have vastly preferred something like this:

"electric version of Renault's low-cost Kwid being launched now"

I know, I know... The poster simply replicated the title in the actual
article. And yet, does it serve HN readers well?

~~~
dang
Fairy godmother at your service.

~~~
simonebrunozzi
You rock, as always :)

------
kennywinker
~$10k, 100kms per charge. I'd buy one if it was available outside of china.

~~~
i_am_proteus
What could stop this from being grey-market legal in the US? Usually it's
tailpipe emissions, which obviously don't apply.

~~~
sriram_sun
How about spontaneously exploding batteries?

~~~
na85
The US auto market already has cars that catch fire randomly.

