
Ask HN: I will help your startup in exchange for food and a place to stay - codeornocode
Hello,<p>This my third and final time posting this post, first time it was labeled as spam and the second time someone suggested that i edit it and so i did.<p>I have 4 years remaining in my U.S visa, each visit i can stay 6 months, i don&#x27;t want to break any U.S rules that&#x27;s why i want to code for your startup for no money, just food and a place to live in transportation would be nice too but i am not going to take money from you and i am not going to ask your for health insurance or be your employee, i don&#x27;t want to break any rules, i have +8 years of experience in JS, PHP, Ruby mainly as a full stack web developer i also do game development using Unity3D + C#, i&#x27;m a Musician since over 15 years at my free time and i can design sounds and soundtracks i work with many DAWs, i&#x27;m bilingual i speak fluent Arabic and English beside having many more skills.<p>I am doing this because i live in a war torn country, some issues happened and i&#x27;ve lost all my savings, I&#x27;m 31 years old and i don&#x27;t want to spend the rest of my life in this place, i&#x27;ve been to California in 2014 and i loved it so much, i can&#x27;t get an H1B visa because i don&#x27;t have a university degree although i have a high school diploma and a college diploma in business management and e-commerce.<p>If you&#x27;d like to interview me please send me an e-mail to life.will.get.better.2016@gmail.com, thank you.<p>Thank you for reading my post.<p>ps: Please if you can&#x27;t help me at least try not to be negative in the comments i already have enough negativity going on in my life and i could really really use some motivation, but after all you are free to write whatever you want of course and i appreciate it.<p>One more thing, thank you &quot;dang&quot; for telling me about the spam filter and helping me.
======
gmazzotti
Why U.S.? I understand that you don´t want to live in your country, but there
are many others countries. Many of them has a much flexible immigration system
where you can live legally if you find a job and where there are many jobs
opportunities if you know how to code. I mean, instead of working almost
illegally for free in the U.S., you can be legally and earning good money in
another country. I´m from Uruguay and this will work here (also, you will have
health insurance, as it is mandatory in any job of any type. Also, it is
common that tech companies hire forgeries that don´t know Spanish, as most
people know English, is not a problem). I know that this is also the case in
many other countries.

~~~
rattray
Question to HN: What are the easiest countries for people from <anywhere> to
move to as a software developer? Eg; easiest visa rules, there are companies
hiring, people aren't egregiously racist?

~~~
mosselman
The Netherlands. The only requirement is that you learn Dutch at a very basic
level. Apart from that everybody, and I mean everybody, speaks English and the
standards of living are among the highest in the world. Sure beats living on a
mattress in some illegal housing in L.A.

~~~
the_human_torch
I've been living in the Netherlands for nearly 7 years and haven't even tried
to learn Dutch yet. Completely concur that it's an easy and wonderful country
to live in, and there's _tons_ of work for good software developers.

~~~
jotm
They must love you there :-). I lived in Belgium/W Flanders and some people
were getting angry that I don't know Dutch...

~~~
glenndebacker
Language is an extremely touchy subject in Flanders, not something exclusive
for West Flanders. Not everybody in Flanders is like that, but it is certainly
not a minority also. My father is (West-)Flemish and my mother is French so
because of that I always looked at it in other view then most people who grew
up in Flanders.

I'm West-Flemish myself and still live here, but I also get my share of snarky
remarks of blogging in English or reading stuff primary in English. If you
have a website with some text in Dutch and you make a spelling mistake then
you will certainly get (angry) mails about it. Or when you use an English word
instead of a Dutch, for some that is another capital offence.

If that sounds ridiculous keep in mind we have people proverbial running after
busses and filling complaints when the bus company dares to advertise
something with English words in it.

Ans seeing how many Dutch related contests Flemish participants win, I have
sometimes the feeling that we are better in Dutch than our neighbours in the
Netherlands. So yeah the Dutch language is really important in this part of
the world.

For some things I can see the benefits of being able to promote (or even
force) the local language. I'm personally convinced that from a social POV it
helps when your neighbour understands you and speaks the same languages.

But on the other hand in the global age we are living we shouldn't
overestimate the importance of it. It sometimes depresses me if I see how much
energy gets lost in those kind of discussions.

~~~
jotm
I mean, I didn't mind learning it, in fact I can understand it pretty well on
paper. But understanding spoken Dutch/Flemish was nearly impossible, and I
could not make proper sentences for a conversation.

The people were very nice (like, almost Hot Fuzz nice :-D), probably why the
few who berated my Dutch speaking abilities stood out :-)

~~~
glenndebacker
I heard it is a very difficult language to master if you are foreign. It took
my mother some time to be fluent at it. Also have some former colleague's -
Bulgarian/Russian - who even after 10 years of living here still have
difficulties.

Fortunately a lot of people don't mind if you aren't fluent in it as they
value the effort more then being 100% correct. And those who react hostile
just don't understand how difficult the language is. Hell even natives have
sometimes problems with all the grammatical rules the Dutch language has!

Hot fuzz is really one of my favourite movies, then again I'm a bit of an
anglophile regarding movies/series/... . :-) I lived btw also in Blankenberge
for 12 years and born in Bruges. Nowadays I live at the other end of West
Flanders.

------
titomc
I am an Indian national on H1B with a top company in US. By all means please
do not come to US with H1B. The U.S. has broken immigration system. My visa is
locked down to my employer and I cannot ask for a raise or get promoted. I
accepted the lowest payment as per DOL from my employer just to stay and work
in US with my 6 year H1B validity. By all means apply for a Canada work visa.
They have now something called Express Entry system. You can also apply for
permanent residency. US immigration system is broken and they are not going to
fix it anytime soon. Immigrate to Canada. H1B is indentured servitude.

I have started my Express Entry application and very soon I will say goodbye
to US , I don't mind the cold in Canada. I will have freedom to change jobs,
won't be an indentured servant. I will also get permanent residency fast. US
green card for Indian citizen is around 10 years backlogged.

I suggest it's best for you to apply for the Canadian Express Entry for
skilled workers.

~~~
burnte
I'm sorry you're having such a bad experience here, I really am. As an
American, you're right, our immigration system is horribly broken; ten years
for a green card is average for most immigrants, if not fast for many. US
firms, especially tech firms, use H1B to do exactly what you said, acquire
people who are effectively indentured servants. Don't like it? Go back to your
home country. Don't want to accept the bottom-basement pay? Someone else will,
there are plenty of non-Americans to exploit!

And at the same time they lobby the Congress for an increase in H1B visas
claiming there aren't enough US workers, they send out ads asking for ten
years experience in HTML5 and CPU design, offering $30k for an "entry level"
position, and say they can't find anyone here to fill it. Of course not, your
requirements are insane and the wage is equally insane.

Yes, there are plenty of companies using H1B ethically, but for every ethical
H1B, there are 5 unethical ones. It's a disservice to both American workers
AND foreign workers.

PS: I'm not anti-immigration. I'm very much pro-immigration. What's that?
You're intelligent, hard working, and want to come to my country to work your
butt off and get rich? COME ON OVER! All I want is an immigration system
that's fair to everyone, both those coming in to get a fair shake and have
protections, and those of us already here, preventing immigrants from being
used as cheap replacement labor.

~~~
giis
As someone from India, Its very nice to hear your thoughts. That's true, tech.
companies exploit people, their salaries are too low. Mostly they hire us for
cheap labour, not because they can't find talents in america and we are do at
it :) I know 95% indian friends who is America or not technically good. They
are just close to the management people. 5% of are good.

ps : I never visited aboard, don't want to travel aboard just because i'm a
cheap labour :)

~~~
giis
<typo-1> and we are good at it :)

<typo-2> who is in America are not technically

------
arihant
If you have 8 years of experience, wait till you get 9 years. If you do, then
even if you have a year of college, you can qualify for H1B. Typically, 3
years of experience equals 1 year of college. As is popular myth, a college
degree or education is not a requirement that is set in stone for H1B.

Also, money or not, if you're working in US in capacity that usually someone
would get compensated for, even for a company outside the US, you need to have
work permit in the country.

If I were you I would look for jobs within Middle East like Qatar, UAE. Jobs
related to tech are there, US universities are there, and the requirements
with immigration are basically "if employer wants you get in." Rack up a few
years of experience, then getting H1B would be viable.

~~~
rattray
Yeah, I second this. I've never been to the Middle East and I haven't heard
the best things about living/working there as a foreigner, but it's absolutely
doable - I knew a couple guys in Nepal who would go to Saudi Arabia and Dubai
for work (cattle ranches or something), visa and all. Other folks from India
and other places who would go for tech work, engineering, etc - all over the
Middle East (even Oman) and it's not so bad. There are stable, thriving
economies there.

~~~
616c
Please do not suggest this unless you know the full story. The conditions are
bad, the pay is terrible, and the legal environment is most unpleasant.

And due to cyber security laws, you will notice no one is going to sat more
than that in a GCC state.

~~~
lucozade
Both are true. My experience (primarily from UAE and Qatar) is that, if you
have skills that are in short supply then you can get excellent, tax-free
salaries with fantastic benefits.

If you're there for manual/low skilled work then the pay and conditions
(relative to, say, Europe) can be appalling.

~~~
616c
Exactly, I can give more detail, but for obvious reasons I will not.

Given what he posted, he is either from Syria or Yemen. And this is why,
knowing the breakdown that you summarized, he will most certainly face a tough
time.

I work with many people on both sides of this spectrum, and hence my warning.

------
davnicwil
You seem a highly skilled and driven individual whose talents would be
savoured, and rewarded with good money, by many companies in many different
countries around the world.

Do not work for free.

Once more, please, do not work for free.

1\. You don't have to work for free, far from it. You have in-demand skills
and experience in a global job market. You can make _really_ good money in
many, many desirable locations around the world.

2\. I would be _extremely_ wary of anyone who would take you up on the basis
you're proposing. Anyone who would give you such 'charity'[1] may have _very_
questionable morals - 'oh sure, I'll take this desperate[2] man's skills, make
potentially a LOT of money off of him without giving him his due reward, and
that's completely fine with me, because that's what he said he wanted'.
Imagine the sort of person who would utter such a sentence - do you want to
tie your livelihood for the next however many years to such a person? I'm sure
you know, there is a whole class of criminal activity in developed countries
which exploits illegal immigrants based around this very premise. DO NOT put
yourself on that path.

3\. Never put yourself at the mercy of any one person or organisation for your
survival. Your current situation is awful, but what kind of life would that be
to move to? How will you feel waking up in a morning in a bed someone is
letting you sleep in, eating some food they gave you for breakfast, then going
to work all day only to guarantee an evening meal and bed when you return
home. Repeating every day for a long time. That is not a life.

[1] That's what they might justify it as, at least. The reality is the
opposite.

[2] I really don't mean to offend here, I know that's not what you are, at
your core. But that's how they will see you, and that's the position you will
put yourself in and indeed what you will become by following such a path.

~~~
rattray
I don't think `davnicwil` is _wrong_ here, but I do think it's overly
negative. A lot of immigrants through the course of history have fled truly
terrible situations and ended up in pretty bad situations where they were
disadvantaged, but at least able to get their feet on the ground and build
something up.

I agree that I would _guess_ you can do better, especially looking at other
countries (there are so many out there! and wonderful people everywhere). But
worse comes to worse, don't be afraid that the sky will fall down on you if
you can't find better than this arrangement. Just keep working hard and
leaping for better (and do keep your eyes peeled as there absolutely could be
people who would take advantage of you).

~~~
davnicwil
I agree with you, but my main message isn't that he can't do it, it's simply
that he needn't, and moreover he definitely shouldn't.

I can't relate to what he's going through but I know he's looking for an out
from his current situation, under a great deal of stress, and from that
vantage point it's usually difficult to see how varied your options are.

I meant for my overall message to be positive - OP, you do not have to resort
to this plan! There is virtually zero chance that this plan is your best
option. Assure yourself of that, and take a serious look at the vastly better
alternative options you have - some great ideas for which are on this thread!

------
Zombieball
Not trying to be negative, but my understanding has always been that U.S.
immigrations doesn't care whether or not money exchanges hands. If you are
doing work that a U.S. citizen would normally get paid for you are still
technically "taking a job" from a local.

While I am sure there are conditions that will allow you to come and stay in
the country, I would be careful what your arrangement is with any potential
startup and how it is worded.

Perhaps another individual on HN has more insight into U.S. visa rules and can
provide better guidance?

Good luck nonetheless!

~~~
pdabbadabba
I also very much hope you find some way of working things out, but there is
another thing you should be aware of:

> just food and a place to live in transportation would be nice too but i am
> not going to take money from you and i am not going to ask your for health
> insurance or be your employee, i don't want to break any rules

There is a good chance that, as well as raising immigration law issues, this
arrangement could also cause your non-employer to violate federal and state
minimum wage laws.

I second the advice of others who suggest consulting an immigration attorney.
This is a challenging and important problem, and it really demands the advice
of a professional. If you don't think you can afford one you should: 1)
schedule an initial consultation with a _good_ immigration attorney anyway.
You should get at least this first conversation for free. (And beware: there
are many truly awful immigration attorneys. Do a little research.) 2) Look to
see if there are any law schools in your area that have immigration law
clinics. They may well take your case for free and, although you will be
assisted by law students, they will be supervised closely by faculty and will
probably provide you with very good advice.

Good luck.

~~~
wpietri
Yep. Not paying people properly for work is a crime. I know in California
that's a big deal. See, e.g., the crackdown a couple years back on
"interships" that were just free jobs. And my guess is that immigration
authorities would see food and lodging as payment, meaning both employer and
employee would be violating the law.

However, I don't think there's anything illegal about paying an independent
contractor who's living in another country. So my suggestion to codeornocode
would be to find some sort of work in the US that could be done remotely from
some safe third country. Immigration authorities care a lot about displacement
of their own citizens, but in the places I've lived they don't give a hoot
about somebody who is on a working vacation.

------
steven2012
Unfortunately this is most certainly in violation of immigration laws. And
chances are at some point, you will be banned from entering the US for a
minimum of 10 years. I actually know 2 people that this happened to, one of
them a personal friend of mine. Immigration/Customs officials do not need
proof to ban you, all they need to do is suspect it. If you enter the US with
no plan, no money, etc, they will suspect, rightfully so, that you are working
in violation of your visa and you will get banned on the spot, especially if
you visit so often.

My suggestion is to not do this. Enter as a tourist and enjoy your time in the
US. If you want to work in the US, do it legally. Do work on an open source
project and try to network and get a job that that way. Maybe try to join a
huge company like Google or Facebook from abroad and transfer. That's your
best way, especially if you get an L1 visa.

~~~
bobosha
I suspect you are on a BUsiness (B-1?) visa and what you propose to do, even
if no cash exchanges hands is considered compensation and therefore
employment. As others have pointed out, you could end up in serious trouble
with US immigration authorities- the 10 year ban is just the beginning, it
could end up with a lifetime ban!

It is just not worth the risk and definitely not someone of your caliber needs
to. There are other countries where you could fare better. Perhaps Canada?

------
codeornocode
I didn't expect this to be #1 post this is kind of you people, I would love to
thank everyone who posted and is posting midway replying to comments with
"Thank you" i found out i'd be spamming the comments in here, so this is a
huge THANK YOU to everyone who wrote and will write.

~~~
faithfone
Congrats on the repost. You may want to include more detailed contact
information in your profile.

All the best to you!

------
arianvanp
Personally, I'd go to the European Union. There are a few very good reasons:

\- Once you get citizenship in one country, you can freely work on any of the
other countries, or move there and live there. Creating a much bigger area of
opportunity for jobs. You could have citizenship in France, and work at a cool
startup in Amsterdam

\- Though it causes a lot of political instability currently (immigrants
constantly drowning in the ocean, trying to get across), getting a visa here
isn't that hard, especially when you're from a conflict zone and can show you
have a good chance to get a job.

\- Europe is pretty awesome.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I agree with your points, but one small nitpick: the US is almost as big as
the whole EU - 300M vs. 500M citizens. So it's not much larger area of
opportunity, just a little bit larger.

~~~
corford
167% the size of the US is more than a little bit, non?

~~~
mcv
Same order of magnitude. EU and US each have their pros and cons. But the EU
is absolutely worth considering.

------
verelo
Disclaimer: I scanned the comments and couldn't see anyone talking about this,
but please forgive me if I've missed this as it does seem like an obvious
point.

Coding for a startup and not receiving pay, is likely still not legal. In my
experience with US immigration (I'm Australian, living in Canada...traveling
to the US from time to time) they don't really care about the money, they
really just are about if you're taking away work that could have otherwise
been done by a US citizen. Which leads me to the point of:

The fact you're doing the work for free is very likely to be irrelevant, its
just the fact that you're doing work that is an issue, irrespective of the
reimbursement you're receiving.

~~~
TheCapn
I think you've got it right here and I hope this gets seen.

US Border Patrol denied my entry to the US once because a coworker and I were
coming over to oversee the installation of a number of electrical devices our
company built/designed/tested and shipped to the client. We didn't have the
adequate paperwork to state that this was a contractual "job" and we were
simply there to assist local tradespeople in the installation should they have
any questions since, you know, we designed the thing.

When we were turned around at the border it was explained: without the
paperwork to detail what we were doing, that this was agreed upon ahead of
time and likely a bunch of other legal matters they had no method of knowing
whether we were hired to save wages that would otherwise go to an American
citizen. We weren't being paid for this work, it couldn't be done by anyone
else (short of them taking the design work and learning it from the ground up
over several months) and we were _still_ denied entry.

OP, work, even if free, is still work. Contact legal aid for what you are and
are not allowed to do.

------
outworlder
> I have 4 years remaining in my U.S visa, each visit i can stay 6 months, i
> don't want to break any U.S rules that's why i want to code for your startup
> for no money, just food and a place to live in

Wouldn't that be compensation, technically? Also, I'd expect a company to be
required to pay someone at least a minimum wage, but I could be mistaken.

> I am doing this because i live in a war torn country, some issues happened
> and i've lost all my savings

Dude, forget the US for now. Your first priority is to get a safe place to
live in and a stable job so you can build your financial life back. Try other
countries, such as the Netherlands, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland.
These have way better immigration policies, specially for people in tech.

Then, when you are ready, try California again. Having no money will be an
obstacle otherwise. How are you going to get translated, notarized
documentation otherwise? Not to mention any kind of fees, plus transportation.

> i can't get an H1B visa because i don't have a university degree

Then don't, try another route. Such as via a big US multinational company. Or
get the degree, if you follow the suggestion to go to an "easier" country
first. You are young, you have time.

------
blrgeek
Have you considered India?

While a work visa is not likely to be easy, the current tech scene has huge
demand for programmers of all kinds. Especially if you're expert in
Unity/Full-stack.

If it'll help, let me know here, and I'll connect you to someone in this very
area (game programming, Unity SDK programming).

Other options would be Canada, Mexico, Vietnam, or anywhere else you can work
remotely.

For visa details see [http://www.immihelp.com/nri/indiavisa/employment-visa-
india....](http://www.immihelp.com/nri/indiavisa/employment-visa-india.html)

~~~
sandGorgon
definitely post to
[https://www.facebook.com/groups/delhistartups/](https://www.facebook.com/groups/delhistartups/)
or
[https://www.facebook.com/groups/blrstartups.connect/](https://www.facebook.com/groups/blrstartups.connect/)

If you want any more information about India - dont hesitate to mail me. It's
a great startup ecosystem and great food. Yes, we have our shit - but fairly
democratic and good opportunities can be had in general.

Tech work in India can be used as a stepping stone to the middle east,
Singapore or the US.

------
pthreads
Not trying to be negative but the reality here is you can't legally just work
for food and shelter in the US. Whoever makes you work that way is very likely
breaking federal and/state laws even if you are not. At the very least you
will have to get paid prevailing minimum wage. And the employer can only hire
you if you are authorized to work.

A very narrow exception exists for unpaid interns. But that requires one to
also be authorized to work in one form or the other for e.g. as a student who
needs work experience in his/her field of study.

------
s3nnyy
If you want to optimize for money, I would recommend Zurich. It is the only
place in Europe where net salaries compare to NYC or the Bay-Area.

If you are interested in moving here, shoot me a mail. Alternatively, check
out my blogpost on medium: "Eight reasons why I moved to Switzerland"
([https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-
moved-t...](https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-to-
switzerland-to-work-in-it-c7ac18af4f90))

~~~
jacobush
I agree but I want to bat for Sweden too. Wages are lower, but you don't have
to pay for health insurance at all, all medical care is free and high quality.
Also, Switzerland is not a member of the E.U. But Switzerland is great, I hear
from relatives living there.

~~~
s3nnyy
"Also, Switzerland is not a member of the E.U." You're saying this as if it
would be a bad thing...

Also, paying 300-500 CHF per month for health insurance out of pocket might
sound not to bad considering the fact that your net-salary is probably 3000
CHF higher here. (In Switzerland you pay 16-22% as income-taxes compared to
60% in Sweden).

------
currentoor
If you're from a war torn country have you considered applying for asylum? I
know cases were asylum was granted to guys from my old country, India, which
is by no means a war torn country.

I'm going through the immigration process right now and everyday Canada looks
like a good option. I know it's not the US but it's still an awesome western
country and has a reasonable immigration system.

Good luck!

~~~
msutherl
Highly recommend Canada ... Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal all have decent
(albeit small) tech scenes and are great places to live.

------
ahuja_s
I run a startup in Singapore. There is a huge shortage of skilled developers
in Singapore. Please do email me at sudhanshu@ideatory.co if you want to
consider Singapore (I saw another comment suggesting Singapore). i know
friends/startups looking for developers here and in Hong Kong (another
option). Good luck mate!

------
winash
I work in Germany, had the option to work in the US but decided against it, I
find the visa regime too strict, and unless you land a great job in a great
company in a good city(you don't want to live in the middle of nowhere) it's
not worth the trouble.

There are plenty of Jobs which you can get without knowing German, and many
employers provide free classes where you can learn some basic German. IMO
knowing a new language is also a very marketable skill depending on where you
are from. Depending on the company you may get 25-30 paid day offs in a year.

You can get paid well if you are qualified/experienced. Living costs are low
as well, I live in Berlin in a spacious 3 room apartment in a great area
([http://i.imgur.com/qLqzqN7.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/qLqzqN7.jpg)). The
infrastructure is amazing. My daily commute is 20 mins door to door (subway or
cycle) and I don't need a car at all. My daughter goes to daycare for free,
and the healthcare system though it has its quirks, works quite well.

Getting a blue card is easy and with your qualifications you should be able to
get it quickly, with the blue card you can travel outside the EU and come back
within 12 months, no questions asked.I just took a 3-week vacation back home
and plan to take another one this year.

If you wanna explore some options I would be more than happy to help, drop me
an email at winash@outlook.com

------
RomanPushkin
What you can do is to move to country like Ecuador (Cuenca, let's say) or
Thailand, or Indonesia (Bali), or Phillipines. It's relatively easy to live
there on a long term.

You can find a job on oDesk (upwork now). I did it before, I earned $3K/month
and worked 5 hours a day only. It's a good money for these countries (well and
for US too).

Just work remotely, live there, save money. One day you'll find a job and will
legally move to U.S. (seems like you'll be qualified after 9 years of
professional experience).

~~~
technomancy
If you want to work in Indonesia or Thailand you need a local company to
sponsor your visa and work permit, which makes remote work tricky. In years
past you used to be able to just leave the country every 60 days or whatever
and hop right back over the border, but you can't get away with that these
days.

Doesn't make any sense, but that's how it is.

------
bmir-alum-007
To help make "ends meet," it's possible to get some food, healthcare and
monetary assistance from federal, state, county and city programs, often
managed by each county's social services agency.

Firstly, there's the Refugee Cash Assistance (RCA) program:
[https://www.sccgov.org/sites/ssa/debs/calworks/Pages/refugee...](https://www.sccgov.org/sites/ssa/debs/calworks/Pages/refugees.aspx)

Here are some other California refugee programs:
[http://www.dss.cahwnet.gov/refugeeprogram/](http://www.dss.cahwnet.gov/refugeeprogram/)

List of other refugee programs:
[http://www.visaus.com/benefits.html](http://www.visaus.com/benefits.html)

Next, food aid (food stamps) is called CalFresh (req 5 yrs of residency for
noncitizens)

After that, there's MediCal (state-run health insurance available at the
county social services agency) (unsure of requirements)

Lastly, General Assistance (emergency cash, a pittance) (only 15 days of
residency is required). You can sign up for it at a local social services
agency office.

Here's the main website for Santa Clara county:
[https://www.sccgov.org/sites/ssa](https://www.sccgov.org/sites/ssa)

(Beware of name clash: federal Social Security is also called SSA. I hear any
sort of Social Security benefits usually takes a very long time and lots of
paperwork to get.)

GA policies:
[https://www.sccgov.org/ssa/general/gachap06.pdf](https://www.sccgov.org/ssa/general/gachap06.pdf)

Other California counties' websites are listed here:
[http://www.counties.org/](http://www.counties.org/)

------
yadavrakesh
Please consider India as one possibility - I have good connections and can
help you if interested.

Yadav.rakesh (at) gmail

No need to work for free - definitely not when you know how to program and
build systems. We don't seem to have enough of those.

Good luck.

------
mayank
Please consider having at least an initial consultation with an immigration
lawyer before trying to do this. The initial consult is usually a 20-30 minute
phone call and is offered for free by many attorneys. Your intentions are
good, but it would be sad if you were blacklisted by immigration for any
reason.

------
jpgvm
If the US visa doesn't work out try going to a country with less archaic
immigration law. i.e anywhere else.

Specifically Australia, Canada, Germany all have working holiday visas which
are flexible and would let you do this sort of thing. Generally anything to do
with the US and visas is a bad day.

~~~
matthewrudy
I would suggest Singapore too. Great emerging startup scene, very quick to get
working visas.

------
killerpopiller
I actually could use your help and would provide a nice shelter, food, salary
in an awesome town here in Germany.

if you are interested, let me know.

~~~
bmir-alum-007
Germany also has single-payer socialized healthcare IIRC. The US has
Medicare/Medicaid/Obamacare which isn't so great, and often doesn't include
dental or vision care. For a long-term living situation, that's probably more
important.

Also, the US immigration and refugee systems are arbitrary, byzantine, gotcha
minefields that can suck would-be visitors into indeterminate imprisonment or
expelled for minor paperwork errors or unintentionally breaking one of a
billion unclear rules.

------
GigabyteCoin
I knew a guy who was hasseled entering the US with some tools because he
planned to do renovations on his own house that he owned outright.

The border guards said that unless he was a citizen or had a work visa then he
was not allowed to work on fixing up his own house, and would have to hire a
local to do it.

tl;dr working for "just food and a place to live" is still technically
working, and unless you have permission to do so it would be risky for all
parties involved.

~~~
homakov
> then he was not allowed to work on fixing up his own house

Then tourists are not allowed to cook and must go to restaurants, and coding
for open source is also illegal? I think guards were wrong.

~~~
tim333
There's a grey area. Making your own bed is ok. Renovating a series of houses
to sell on isn't. It's not totally clear where the boundary is but I think the
guards have some discretion.

------
phantom_oracle
Have you tried applying for refugee status?

I don't know if you'd be allowed to work, but instead of taking grants from
the US as a refugee, you could maybe convince them that you are a skilled-
refugee who is leaving your war-torn country and you would like to work
instead of being given a handout.

Something tells me that the red-tape in the US won't allow this, but it is
worth a shot, especially if you speak to an immigration lawyer about it.

------
seikatsu
There is quite a lot of US visa related guesswork going on in this thread -
please do seek expert advice. In my experience the application and compliance
problems look much less scary when you talk to someone who does this every
day. Lawyers are expensive, but try:
[http://teleborder.com](http://teleborder.com) (YC startup)

And on the global search for alternatives, should US not work out, here's some
overview data of 110 most startup-friendly cities in the world:
[http://my.teleport.org/](http://my.teleport.org/) \-- and a mobile app for
searching among them: [http://teleport.org/mobile](http://teleport.org/mobile)
(visa data layers coming soon, too, but dozens of other cost & quality of life
criteria already there)

------
jedanbik
I wouldn't want to hire you because I wouldn't want to get in trouble. I also
wouldn't want you to get in trouble. There are alternatives being discussed
here that would allow a win/win instead of a lose/lose: pick a different
country, get another year of experience, and play by the rules.

------
rainereli
Hey USA is not the only place in the word where you can develope your self,
with that CV to can try India , China , Shangia places where you can find a
LOT of opportunities.

------
seablackwithink
Hello, upon reading this post I felt great sorrow for your situation. I have
seen many scams,(I do not believe you to be involved in any kind of scam), and
known many people with visa issues.. I believe you are a truthful, honest
person who deserves the best...as well as having the best intentions towards
others. While I am in Texas and have can not offer support at this time...I do
know a few people in California and Oregon who may be able to help you...I am
sending your post/email to them momentarily. Are there any other states have
an interest in regarding living/working etc.? Please let me know and I will
see what I can do to connect you with assistance.

Also, please keep us up to date regarding your situation.

Respectfully,

D. Virgillo

~~~
codeornocode
Thank you for your kind comment and help, i appreciate it, most of the
comments here and the e-mails i got made me consider somewhere else, when i
posted this post i only saw California in my head even though i don't mind
going elsewhere at all.

------
iamcurious
Talk to a lawyer that actually knows the stuff. Also, if the situation looks
that bleak regarding the U.S, please consider another country that gives you a
better legal standing. Broaden your search. There is more to the world than
North America and Europe.

------
OoTheNigerian
Here are my suggestions.

1\. Take a deep breath and be calm. It will be ok. You have a visa which is
the option to move. you are in a good place already.

2\. Think of the most stable (infrastructure and cost wise) country you can
access visa free, go there and try getting a remote position in the US. With
that, you can fun living a fairly stable life in the mean time.

3\. DO NOT risk your B1/B2 by trying to trick the system. Aim for a maximum of
4 months/year in the US on it.

4\. With your B1/B2 you can travel to Mexico and Turkey for a while too.

Finally, DO NOT risk your B1/B2 and always have a decent reason when entering.
the paper you have in your passport is merely for the CHANCE to gain entry at
the immigration border and not a visa in itself.

It will be ok bud!

------
siddarthan_sp
Sorry to say, but I don't think what you're asking for is legal. You cannot be
employed just for food/place to stay. If you need to work in the US, it's not
possible with your visa (which I'm assuming is B1/B2).

------
worldadventurer
How about working for a startup tackling poverty alleviation globally, based
in beautiful Cebu, Philippines? Visas here are much easier to get and the
startup scene is growing rapidly. We're looking for talented full stack
developers to work with Go language, Python/Django, Java, Docker, and
Microservices. Our customers are doing life changing work globally, including
in the Middle East.
[https://www.engagespark.com/about/#join](https://www.engagespark.com/about/#join)
. And two of us co-founders based here are from the US originally.

------
jonsterling
I don't think this is even legal; I'm sorry for your situation, but you must
see that if this sort of thing were allowed, it would pave the way for
slavery.

------
rtpg
I'm not in the US, but some people here are.

What about working on some open source projects? I don't think that would fall
into the danger zone of immigration law(since you wouldn't be working "for"
anyone).

Alternatively, maybe a company here can offer you an internship? The visa
requirements could be less.

Does anyone here know an immigration lawyer that could help this person get
out of a bad situation?

------
maehwasu
Email sent. Let's get the ball rolling and see what you've got.

------
alongtheflow
Try O-1 Visa. O-1 visa is getting more popular as an alternative to H-1B. O-1
visa does not require a university degree, and I think you have a good shot
depending on how well you put yourself out there.

[http://www.quora.com/O1-Visa](http://www.quora.com/O1-Visa)

------
hal9000xp
> i can't get an H1B visa because i don't have a university degree

I have exactly the same problem. I'm from Russia and I don't have university
degree so I can't get H1B visa right now (but I will when I have 12 years of
exp).

US is really hard country to get in.

I relocated to Stockholm, Sweden since Sweden doesn't require university
degree for work permit. Software developers are in shortage occupation list.

Sweden is easiest wealthy western country to get in.

If you will bored in Sweden, you can later apply to UK (as far as I understand
Tier 2 General doesn't require degree either).

You can get your job in Hong Kong and Singapore without university degree but
it will be a bit harder.

So I recommend Sweden. It's better to be normal employee in Stockholm than
working for food in California.

Also, don't stay for a few months in US on tourist visa. Next time they ban
you to issue new visa!

~~~
jacobush
Native Swede here, I agree. Sweden is quite easy to get into if you are on the
shortage occupation list, which you are.

Once in Sweden you will either fall in love with the on the surface reserved
people, or if you don't, work 5 years, apply for citizenship, then be a
Swedish citizen (best passport in the world for traveling along with U.K.
passport) and automatically a E.U. citizen, which means you can work anywhere
in the E.U. without any limits at all. As a E.U. citizen and especially
Swedish citizen it can be easier to get into the U.S. and Canada, I hear
anecdotally. There are also sizable communities of almost all war affected
ethnicities in Sweden you can socialize with. Stockholm is the most
international city, you can live there a life time on English alone and not
feel left out too much. Everywhere also you can still live on English alone,
but the social life with locals will suffer if you don't learn Swedish, IMHO.
All Swedes know English, but you will miss out on little chats etc. Also
minorities often communicate more in Swedish than their native tongue,
especially children of immigrants, so paradoxically to connect with your own
kin, you also need to learn Swedish. Integration issues varies from place to
place, there are some problems with racism especially towards people of color,
but far from as much as in Germany. Also the racism is kind of specific and
weird, if you are black but from the U.S. you are still almost celebrated by
the Swedish locals.

TL/DR: Sweden is awesome. Easy to come in, if you love it, you will love it a
lot. If you don't, become citizen then move on to the rest of the E.U.

~~~
hal9000xp
I agree with you in general. But as non-EU citizen, I should work 4 years here
in Sweden. Then I get only permanent residence.

After I get permanent residence, I should live ANOTHER 5 years to get Swedish
citizenship.

So it's 9 years in total, not 5 years.

~~~
jacobush
You are correct, mea culpa. However, with permanent residence for 5 years, you
get similar rights as E.U. citizens and can work in E.U. countries except for
Denmark, Ireland and the U.K.

[http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-
individuals/E...](http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-
individuals/EU-citizens-and-long-term-residents/Long-term-residents.html)

------
rabbyte
Best of luck to you, I'm sorry for where the system has gotten in the way. If
I could, I would offer.

~~~
codeornocode
Thank you

------
fasteo
>>>> I am doing this because i live in a war torn country

I think your best option is to ask for Asylum [1]

[1] [http://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-
asylum/asylum](http://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum)

------
humbertomn
Honestly, I think you will be more successful if you spend your time and
energy looking for employers that could sponsor your visa to Australia,
Canada, New Zealand, etc...

I'm from a very remote part of Brazil and I used www.seek.com.au to get a
programming job in Australia in 2008.. The company ran some remote tests with
me and paid for all the relocation costs. You should try this.

Also you can try to get a permanent visa even before you try to move there.
You can use the Immigration Points Calculator
([https://www.wannamigrate.com/tools/](https://www.wannamigrate.com/tools/))
to know if you have the basic requirements for these same countries.

------
davidbanham
You may be a good candidate for an Australian visa. Not sure where it goes,
but this form allows you to register your interest in becoming a skilled
migrant.

[https://skillselect.gov.au/SKILLSELECT/ExpressionOfInterest/...](https://skillselect.gov.au/SKILLSELECT/ExpressionOfInterest/PreReg/Start)

Also, there _may_ be nothing stopping you from living in the US but working
remotely for a company in another country. That may be a good path to getting
an Australian/European/other company to sponsor you for skilled migration.

Best of luck!

------
tinco
Why not just apply for college in The Netherlands? (I recommend NHL or if your
sciencey Twente). Or Germany? You can live comfortably on a part time job and
can use the degree to get into the U.S. if you want.

------
meric
If U.S. doesn't work out, give Australia a try, a lot more lenient.

~~~
bayesianhorse
Unless you are granted asylum and therefor have to live in a prison camp...

~~~
incompatible
The refugees in the prison camps haven't been granted asylum.

~~~
bayesianhorse
That's not true. Even those who are granted asylum have to live in these camps
and are not allowed to live in Australia. "You will not make Australia your
home."

Also, holding children in prison camps unfit for human habitation, because
they have not been granted asylum status, isn't that much better.

------
eddywebs
If you need a professional degree for potentially being able to get an H1B
sponsorship, I would suggest signing up for harvard extension >>
[https://www.extension.harvard.edu/](https://www.extension.harvard.edu/)

Anybody can start class and you qualify to join signup for a professional
degree after getting A in 3 or more classes. Good luck !

------
eddywebs
If you need a professional degree for potentially being able to get an H1B
sponsorship, I would suggest signing up for harvard extension >>
[https://www.extension.harvard.edu/](https://www.extension.harvard.edu/)

Anybody can start class and you qualify to join signup for a professional
degree after getting A in 3 or more classes. Good luck !

------
seanccox
You should consider traveling to the US on your visa and then applying for
refugee status: [http://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-
asylum/refugees](http://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/refugees)

You can contact the Helsinki Citizens Assembly or the International
Organization for Migration for advice.

------
arunitc
With 8 years of experience, you should be able to get a H1B. Every 3 years of
experience adds 1 year to your education. You need 16 years of education to
get a H1B. I too do not have a degree and managed to get a H1B. The challenge
is to get through the lottery.

However, as many others have suggested, I too would recommend you to try
another country, where visa rules are relaxed.

------
zkhalique
I am not 100% sure about the rules, but I think work for free is still
considered work. If you have a tourist visa, you are not allowed to work for a
client in the USA, even for free.

If you have all this time, why not develop an app and sell it on the internet?
You can always say you're working for your own company back home.

------
rebekah-aimee
Look up this organization called "World Relief." They might take you on and
help you with visa troubles. This is definitely in their department and
they're super nice people; I volunteered with one of their families for a
while.

Good luck; we're rooting for you.

------
aivatra
Hey why don't you come to Costa Rica? you can ask for political asylum here
and work for tech companies. I'm an engineer and have always worked for
american companies here. Also you can try New Zealand which is very similar in
tech jobs like Costa Rica.

------
zakvyn
China(Shanghai, Beijing) will be a good place to go to find IT job that
require English communication (good pay), and don't have to worry about visa
issue. Just go to linkedin, and find local recruiter there.

------
avellable
You can apply to jobs in companies which are targeting diversity and
experience like Rakuten Inc. It's in Japan one of the safest countries. If you
got the appropriate experience they will hire you.

------
thiago_fm
I advise you try to find a job in Germany. I'm a brazilian myself and got a
job here.

For a skilled Ruby dev with a diploma(for a third world country, this is a
requirement) you can get around here pretty easily.

~~~
tim333
Also Germany has pretty much free universities if you can qualify as a
resident which I guess you would if you work a few years.

------
Spoom
I'm pretty sure USCIS doesn't care if you're paid or not; the idea is that
you're still potentially taking a job from an American citizen. You might want
to be careful.

------
bayesianhorse
Consider coming to Germany. Berlin has a nice startup scene and both English
and Arabic speaking communities.

I don't know how easy it is to get a Visa in your particular situation!

------
slaction
Hi OP. Thanks for posting. Now let us tell why you're technically wrong about
everything and we know more than you, and we've never had a girlfriend.

------
bradleyankrom
It bums me out that this is so complicated for you. It also bums me out that I
can't think of anything I could do to help you. I hope things work out.

------
greyfox
if your a good programmer why not land a job and let the company you work for
take care of the visa we employ many chinese workers at our company and they
all stay here visa paid for by the company, there is some real world
infactuality in your premise, any company who "would" want you to work for
them for free, as a skilled worker, should also want to pay you and pay for
your via.

------
rokhayakebe
Hey, what kind of visa do you currently have?

~~~
codeornocode
I have a B1/B2 visa

~~~
rokhayakebe
Some examples of legitimate and temporary business activities that people have
conducted on a B-1 visa are:

attending business conferences and meetings

conducting independent research, such as feasibility or marketing studies

engaging in “start-up” activities (for example, exploring U.S. investment
opportunities)

Source: [http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/a-b-1-visa-
business-v...](http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/a-b-1-visa-business-
visits-the-us-do-you-qualify.html)

So it would be legitimate if the work you are doing is to research business
opportunities. Also book every relevant conference and convention in the area
that you can go to and attend each, get business cards, develop contact.

As far as you know, you are here researching future opportunities to set up a
great business and create jobs in the U.S..

~~~
tim333
Here's a potential sort of loop hole. Set up a software development business
back in your home country (or another country, non US). It doesn't have to be
much - maybe a bank account and a couple of your developer friends as would be
contractors for it.

Then in the US you can legitimately use your "Business Visitor Visas (B-1) -
... to consult with business associates, ... or negotiate a contract"

[http://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/VisaFlyer_March_20...](http://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/VisaFlyer_March_2014_print.pdf)

So you can chat to startups and offer to get stuff written for them by your
company abroad. They can legally pay your company and your company can pay you
a salary while traveling.

I think all the above is legal. Not really legal but very hard to catch is you
could actually write some of the code yourself in your room or a cafe in
California if the friends back home don't do it. If immigration get on to you
it would be hard to prove you are working rather than just mucking about on
the laptop. On the other hand if you are in a work situation in an office then
they will assume you are working illegally.

The above has an advantage that if you do well it may actually turn into a
real business.

------
jane_is_here
Have you considered Canada ? It has nice people and is not as hostile to
migrants as some other countries.

------
thobakr
There is no future in the US, just go to other country (like Canada or
something in west Europe).

------
kevindeasis
Oh man if you only lived in Alberta. You would def be welcome to stay at my
place.

------
eonw
go get em tiger, screw all the haters! good for you for trying to better
yourself and doing it while following 'the rules'.

------
ThomPete
You should consider getting an O-1 visa.

------
mmaunder
It sounds like the poster is on a B1 or B2 visa which allows 6 months max
stay. It's essentially a tourist visa that is issued for up to 10 years with
max stay of 6 months and no right to work.

It's highly likely that he will enter a few times with short stays outside the
USA and then get denied entry, sent to secondary processing at an airport,
questioned and be offered: A) the right to contest his case in court which
will mean jail time until his case comes up or B) The option to withdraw his
petition to enter the USA and catch the next plane back to his home country.
Most people choose B for obvious reasons which leads to you being marched
through the airport by security and put on a plane back home.

What I'd very strongly recommend is to not go around offering to work for
free. If you do in fact live in a war torn country and have 'lost all your
savings', do what many offshore folks do and get a US company to hire you for
pay and just work wherever you are and get paid in your home country. Why the
"work for free" offer and why the long story? It makes companies nervous. We
like to pay people for their good work whether in the USA or outside the
country, but legally and above board. You should get paid too.

Just posting a few data points regarding H1B stuff and immigration in general:

Time varies for visa processing and 10 years is not average for most
immigrants (as has been mentioned). It took me 6 months from zero to green-
card and 3 years from conditional residency (green card) to full citizenship.
Not H1B. So it varies according to type of Visa, where you file and your
country. Wait times can be found here:

[https://egov.uscis.gov/cris/processTimesDisplayInit.do](https://egov.uscis.gov/cris/processTimesDisplayInit.do)

Microsoft brings in H1B's at a rate of 2000 to 4000 people per year into the
Redmond area.

[http://visadoor.com/companies/microsoft-
corporation](http://visadoor.com/companies/microsoft-corporation)

Google about the same numbers, mostly into Mountain View:

[http://visadoor.com/companies/google-
inc](http://visadoor.com/companies/google-inc)

I'm not sure I agree about H1B being indentured servitude. I'd also add that,
if your intention is to become a citizen via H1B, make sure you understand how
the process works before you even apply for H1B:

[http://www.quora.com/How-do-I-get-US-citizenship-
with-H1B-vi...](http://www.quora.com/How-do-I-get-US-citizenship-
with-H1B-visa)

------
jdimov9
I broke the US rules. I worked on my student visa, got thrown around four
different prisons throughout Pennsylvania and New York in the span of
30-something days and was finally deported (with airfare that I had to pay
for). I was in my final year of my B.S. in mathematics program at university.
I never finished my degree.

All of the above is absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, THE most
fortunate thing that has happened to me and I owe all of my current success to
this.

What I'm trying to say is - PLEASE get back your dignity. You're not a monkey,
don't make any person, government or society make you think you are one.

~~~
pavlov
_... I owe all of my current success to this._

Can you elaborate? Sounds like an interesting story.

------
logicrime
Best of luck to you, friend! Hearing of all the things you have learned and
have experience in leads me to believe that many startups would miss out if
they overlooked you. You sound awesome.

~~~
codeornocode
Thank you for your kind words :D

------
idibidiart
Hi,

I like you and your tenacity.

Why don't you ask it differently so all those annoying comments trying to
"help" you would stop.

What I'm thinking is this:

"hey guys,

Does anyone have a fun side project I could hack on? Would you also be so
generous as to have a couch for me at your place and host me for couple of
weeks or whatever time?"

I can't imagine why such a proposal would have any illegal implications as
long as you're presence in this country is legal. You can also qualify the
"side project" as non-commercial and "hobby"

Does that make any sense whatsoever in your situation?

Anyway, best of luck. I really hope things get better.

Take care.

~~~
codeornocode
Thank you a lot.

------
paulhauggis
Many people here talk about how 'terrible' the US is as a country. Yet, we see
people like the OP trying everything in his power to get into the country.

It should really put things into perspective.

------
paulhauggis
Many people here talk about how 'terrible' the US is as a country. Yet, we see
people like the OP trying everything in his power to get into the country.

It should really put things into perspective.

