

Palestinians blow hole in border wall...  to go shopping. - iamelgringo
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080123/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians
I know that this is off topic for Hacker News, but it was just too weird to let it pass.
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Mistone
an oddly titled article - its amazing to me that there is international
political pressure to quickly re-contain / restrict a group of people in need
of basic food, supplies, and services.

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curi
I agree -- the international community should decisively deal with the problem
of violent thugs in control of the Gaza Strip, and be done with it, rather
than letting everyone involved suffer slowly, and then having to deal with it
decisively at some later date.

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mynameishere
I could never understand Israel with respect to Gaza. The closest I could come
up with--Israel increases the pressure on Gaza to the near-breaking point,
only to suddenly withdraw. At that point, they make a slight and subtle but
_meaningful_ advance on the West Bank. The West Bank, unlike Gaza, is
economically and strategically valuable. But still...does it really take a
blockade to do this?

~~~
curi
Israel's policy hasn't been entirely consistent in its aims. There are rival
political forces which disagree. Just like US policies sometimes change after
elections.

But Israel has other factors making it difficult to be consistent, too.
Specifically, variable international pressure, and inconsistent support from
the US.

The heart of the problem, which makes a policy difficult to agree on, is that
on the one hand Israel ought to defend itself vigorously enough that _zero_
innocent Israelis are killed by violent thugs. And on the other, Israel is
under massive pressure not to do that, and not even the US will support Israel
in defending its citizens enough to keep all of them alive.

~~~
jorgeortiz85
Zero innocent Israeli civilians killed is obviously a noble goal.

But not at the expense of N>0 innocent Palestinian civilians killed.

~~~
curi
So suppose a criminal breaks into your house. And he's got a knife, and you're
frail, so you better shoot him. Add more details if you want, so it's clearly
justified self defense.

Now add a reason that doing this kills the criminal's innocent son. He left
his son tied up at home, and was planning to untie the kid when he returned,
but he never got home, and the kid wasn't found in time and starved to death.
Or the man actually was a good father, but he and his son were involved in a
dangerous project, and he would have been fine, but now without his father's
help, he is killed.

So, defending yourself caused an innocent to die.

But it wasn't wrong of you to do that. The fault lies with the criminal. He is
responsible for getting himself shot by breaking into your house and trying to
rob and murder you. And because getting himself shot is his responsibility, so
are the consequences. He got his own son killed, not you.

Agree so far?

~~~
sgoraya
Quite possibly the stupidest argument ever made

More innocent Palestinian children have died than all of the Israeli
casualites put together

Agreed? (If not, do a quick google search and you can compare #'s across
several human rights groups)

~~~
rms
More innocent Palestinian civilians have died than all of the Israeli
casualties put together. But the Palestinian casualties would stop if their
insane leadership would stop killing Israelis! Israel is between a rock and a
hard place. Nothing they can do is right in the eyes of anyone.

I was your typical liberal anti-zionist "omg the poor Palestians" Jew until
about a month ago. I did the free trip to Israel sponsored by insane wealthy
philanthropists and the Israeli government. <http://www.birthrightisrael.com>
(it's free with no catch, other than getting to experience brilliantly
constructed propaganda -- they say you need to be Jewish to go along but they
don't check. 2/3 of the people on my trip were atheist/secular, kind of like
Israel itself. All that matters is that you are 18-26 at the time of the trip.
Email me if you're interested in going, I can answer any questions.)

My conclusion after the trip is that the Palestinians bring it on themselves.
I wish that Israel would stop killing innocents. But if they made radical
concessions, like completely removing their military from the occupied
territories, tearing down the racist segregation wall, and returning East
Jerusalem to Arab control, acts of terrorism would increase.

So... I would love to hear what you or anyone think is the solution to the
Israeli/Palestinian conflict, keeping in mind that the truly ideal solution,
making Jerusalem an international city, will never be agreed upon by the
Palestinians.

~~~
sgoraya
Its all a big mess my friend - I concede that I have no solution - Both sides
have been at it for such a long time that I'm not sure a full fledged
reconciliation will be accomplished - But we can hope though! (No more
politics for me, it makes my head hurt)

~~~
weiser
Agree. Anybody who pins the blame on any one side is an ignorant idealogue.
People who think like that can only create problems, not solve any.

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iamelgringo
I know this is off topic for Hacker News, but it was just too weird to pass up
without sharing.

