
Cat Declawing Is Banned by New York State Lawmakers - pseudolus
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/04/nyregion/cats-declawing-law-ban.html
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awfully
There’s a lot of people here that I don’t think understand what declawing is.

Declawing isn’t just removing the claws. The equivalent when performed on a
human would be to surgically remove the last section of your fingers, on all
your fingers. You don’t/can’t just remove the claws: you are removing the
entire bone.

It is absolutely cruel and unusual and honestly, you are a monster if you
support this.

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taeric
I'm actually somewhat torn on this one. At face value, I fully agree. More,
none of my cats have been declawed, as I just don't see the point.

That said, I also don't buy the mutilation argument at face value. We
literally castrated all of our male cats, and nobody bats an eye. Indeed, you
seem to be frowned upon if you don't. Surely that is as mutilating to a male
cat as losing a knuckle?

~~~
vageli
> I'm actually somewhat torn on this one. At face value, I fully agree. More,
> none of my cats have been declawed, as I just don't see the point.

> That said, I also don't buy the mutilation argument at face value. We
> literally castrated all of our male cats, and nobody bats an eye. Indeed,
> you seem to be frowned upon if you don't. Surely that is as mutilating to a
> male cat as losing a knuckle?

At least castration has the actual benefit of aiding in population control. I
don't see any benefit to declawing and in fact it endangers outdoor cats as
they can't adequately protect themselves.

~~~
challenger22
Failing to declaw an outdoor cat lets the cat kill more birds; cats are an
invasive species that kill billions of birds per year.

~~~
asdff
It also prevents your cat from defending itself from other cats, dogs,
raccoons, possum, fox, insert local critter here that will fuck up your cat,
in the event your cat gets loose. You shouldn't let your cat be unsupervised
killing birds, that's just irresponsible as you say.

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newnewpdro
My childhood cat was declawed on the front paws, and I've had multiple cats
since then, all with claws intact.

It's definitely a significant difference in the cat's existence to be
clawless. I'm happy to see this attitude shifting, but as others have
commented here, there will almost certainly be more cats returned to shelters
(and killed) when they won't stop shredding the furniture and carpet.

Even if you trim their claws, in my experience they will always do some damage
to anything they can sink their claws into. It obviously feels good and is a
compulsive activity like stretching for them.

And if you raise them to be aggressive with too much rough-housing in
protective clothing, it can be a real problem, like with guests who think it's
a good idea to pet the cat that's been unintentionally conditioned to think
all arms are as impervious to claws as layers of sweatshirts worn in constant
rough-housing. I had a friend who made this mistake long ago, that cat was
awesome if you knew how to play with it but it required a safety warning at
the entrance or blood would be spilled.

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paganel
An owner who gives his/her cat to a shelter because of some scratched piece of
furniture doesn’t deserve to be a cat owner after all. What he/she would have
done had his/her kids destroy said furniture? Turn them in to an orphanage?

~~~
bjoli
Exactly. As a cat owner it is your responsibility to let the cat have its
natural behaviour. If your cat scratches your sofa, get a scratch station and
work work work until the undesired behaviour stops.

A cat has the right to a happy life, and of you want a happy indoor cat that
is a lot of work.

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fossuser
I guess I don’t understand why people feel so strongly about this issue. The
cats I interacted with growing up were mostly declawed indoor cats and seemed
happy and playful.

It was less about furniture and more about not getting scratched (or having
dogs get scratched).

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nkrisc
If one is afraid of getting scratched, don't get a pet with claws. Fish are
pretty harmless.

~~~
fossuser
I just suspect this is something humans care a lot about, but doesn’t actually
bother cats that much.

Based on the descriptions I read from the people against declawing cats - it
doesn’t seem like their arguments are very accurate. It feels a lot more
emotional and more like they’re making up arguments to back their existing
position (rather than actually looking at harm done).

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bayesian_horse
As a veterinarian I feel a bit ashamed that veterinary surgeons are actually
working against the law.

In Germany I don't even know when this was outlawed, but nobody here would
even think that is possible.

I don't buy the euthanasia or abandonment argument at all.

~~~
bayesian_horse
And I'd like to add that "kill shelters" are not without alternatives.

In Germany it is forbidden to euthanize animals for lack of resources or will
to keep it. People often have to pay shelters to take their animals, and if
they just abandon them somewhere, they may get fined or even prosecuted.

In general, Germans tend to ask shelters first, when trying to acquire a dog,
cats also. It has gotten so far that shelters have more applicants than dogs
they can give them, and the dogs which stay in shelters are not suited to an
average dog owner (behavior, size, medical issues). We even import thousands
of street/shelter dogs from all over Europe.

Cats unfortunately are too plentiful. There are always some feral/semi-feral
populations who haven't been neutered. Shelters keep them, but they will often
stay all their life there.

And of course, not all of the US is comparable to Germany in many regards. In
Germany there aren't a lot of sparsely populated areas, and the animal
protection laws are a lot tougher.

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rurban
Overview:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onychectomy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onychectomy)

Outlawed in most countries, animal cruelty.

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alexmlamb
It's not exactly a quick fix, but how many generations would it take to breed
cats with substantially softer claws? This could be an interesting program
perhaps for the government to undertake.

I also wonder if crispr or embryo selection could be used if a GWAS could find
genes that lead to softer claws.

The selection techniques have been used to improve milk yields for cows, so it
seems like making cats which don't need to be declawed would be a valid
project.

~~~
raverbashing
NO cat needs to be declawed (no more than any human needs to have their
fingertips cut off).

Have a scratcher and trim off their nails, problem solved.

~~~
nkrisc
Even better, don't get a cat if scratching is a problem.

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jimkri
Before I adopted my cat I thought that declawing was something normal, but
after learning that they break the knuckles I just can't support it. When I
trim my cat's nails I feel his little knuckles and its really adorable. Also
when I'm clipping them I know he is super sensitive with his nails, so I can
only imagine how it would feel to have them removed.

The thing that I don't really get is that people want to have an animal in
their homes, but they don't like the true animal behaviors so they want to
stop them from doing what they naturally do. People want cute and cuddly cats,
but when the cat scratches someone its acting bad. In reality it's just
responding to its environment and its acting like the animal that it is.

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Wowfunhappy
Do we have evidence that declawing causes lasting pain or psychological damage
to the cat?

I admittedly have no idea how’d you’d test this in an animal—but it seems like
it should be a prerequisite to banning the procedure.

~~~
bjoli
It is usually done to prevent the cat from a natural behaviour (scratching)
which can usually be fixed by getting a proper scratching pole and monitoring
you can for a week or two to prevent them from scratching anywhere else.

Declawing often introduces other behavioural problems (biting, soiling outside
the cat box) which are usually a sign of your cat not liking the situation.

Castration is for the male cat a smaller operation, and usually fixes problems
and gives you a happier less aggressive cat with an increased tendency to gain
weight.

Behaviour problems in cats are usually because they are not stimulated enough,
and declawing them will hide the scratching problem but will sometimes
introduce other problems that are harder to fix.

Veterinarians should really propose other solutions first such as activelt
working with your cats behaviour. In the end it will probably give you a
happier cat.

I would argue that aggressiveness in the male cat is a different kind of
behaviour. It is a natural behaviour, of course, but it is not easily changed,
and it is also not a behaviour that makes your cat happy.

To summarize: castrating a cat is a good way to get a happier calmer and
slightly fatter cat. Declawing is usually done to prevent a either a natural
behaviour or a sign that your cat is unhappy. It commonly leads to other
behavioural problems that are even harder to fix.

One is a path to a happy cat, one is to sweep a problem under the rug.

I am of course coloured by where I live: declawing has been outlawed for quite
some time and even before that it was considered animal abuse by most.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Thanks. So it sounds like, yes, there are clearly identifiable, negative
behavioral changes in the animal.

~~~
bjoli
Sorry about the poor structure and ranting quality of the post. Wrote it on my
phone over the course of 25 minutes and didn't proofread it.

The Wikipedia entry about declawing is pretty good if you are still
interested.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Thanks again. The wikipedia article actually seems considerably more
measured—behavioral changes are observed, but for a small percentage of
subjects in most studies, and at those levels I really wonder how much is a
placebo (on the part of the observer, not the cat, ofc)

~~~
bjoli
The general tendency of the result isn't very good for declawing. Especially
considering the amount of cats that get complications from the surgery.

The studies cited with positive results for relinquishment pushes for other
risk factors such as understanding and investing in you cat as a contributor
to positive outcome. Maybe people willing to pay are more invested in their
cats, and go with what a veterinarian recommends (which may be declawing).

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combatentropy
Once I bought the right scratching post, my cat stopped using my furniture.

The most important thing about a scratching post is that it must not move. If
a cat tries to use it, and it wobbles, then the cat will give up on it. It
will go back to scratching your couch, which does not move.

Cats use scratching posts not just to sharpen their claws but to stretch their
spines. Watch their whole body when they use a scratching post. Is not like
how you stretch in the morning? Declawing a cat deprives them of this. Even if
the pain of amputation subsides, this disability remains.

When I was researching whether to declaw my cat, I found this article about
the many ways it hurts cats and why it is unnecessary,
[https://www.purrfectpost.com/declawing-cats-alternatives-
to-...](https://www.purrfectpost.com/declawing-cats-alternatives-to-an-
inhumane-procedure/). "A cat that has access to scratching posts that meet
their needs for marking territory, stretching muscles, and relieving stress
will almost always choose to use them rather than the less attractive options
of furniture and carpet."

Then I read their article on choosing a scratching post and ending up buying
theirs, [https://www.purrfectpost.com/how-to-choose-the-best-cat-
scra...](https://www.purrfectpost.com/how-to-choose-the-best-cat-scratching-
post/)

I'm unaffiliated with Purrfect Post, but my cat likes their stuff.

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killjoywashere
Someone needs to open a luxury upholsterer in Manhattan that specialized in
armored fabrics. Like, in the next week.

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pvaldes
Good. There is nothing of interest in declawing, when there is a perfectly
good and obvious alternative available that is not permanent and is much
better: Cat nail scissors. Just use it in several steps when your cat is
sleeping or relaxed. One or two nails at a time. Give your cat something to
scratch and you will have several weeks of peace. Repeat as necessary.

Understanding better your cat and building a relationship of trust will be
even better. My last cat never, ever, used seriously his claws against me. Of
course I never, ever, used my claws against him. Reciprocity.

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purpleidea
Not a cat owner, so actually curious:

I have a friend cat who always scratches me, which is quite painful and leaves
marks. Is there a way to trim the nails so this doesn't happen, or is the only
solution to avoid the cat?

~~~
bayesian_horse
Normally cats only scratch when you go after them in some way. If that is the
case, just don't go after the cat.

If the cat goes after you, that's a whole different ball game!

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Lio
Yep, it's worth remembering that cats don't have opposable thumbs to grip
with, they have claws instead.

So for example if you go to pet a cat's stomach and it doesn't want you to its
only recourse maybe to use it's claws to "grab" your hand.

I think removing the ability to "grip" from cats for the sake of furniture or
because you want to do things to the cat it doesn't like is wrong.

If you don't like scratchy cats don't have a cat.

~~~
bayesian_horse
I think that inability to "grip" things is the least of the problems with
declawing. Complications, pain, problems walking and the whole idea of
removing body parts at all count a little higher for me.

As an owner I think you can avoid getting scratched. As a vet... I personally
have never been bitten (too little practical experience), but I've seen
colleagues handle cats in a way that just spelled resignation to the fact that
those teeth will connect and there is nothing to be done about it....

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lupinglade
Why is this not law in Canada yet?

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MagicPropmaker
Good! I love my cats and their claws.

