
Uber Executive, Linked to an Old Harassment Claim, Resigns - startupdiscuss
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/27/technology/uber-sexual-harassment-amit-singhal-resign.html
======
voidhorse
This stinks of scapegoating, of cover up, of distraction.

I'm sure Uber hopes this is a best/least impact course of action for them to
begin to erase last week's terrible publicity from everyone's minds.

They a. Fire someone who has only been there a month -- so don't lose too hard
employee investment wise. b. Happened to find someone to fire who fits
extremely well into a narrative that makes it appear as though they are
toughening up and tackling the root of these recent sexual harassment
accusations when in reality the good old boys will be sticking around.

Capitalism may improve greatly once we have robot overlord higher-ups that are
optimized for economic success only and not power drunk once they don a suit,
prove they are a little more cunning and opportunistic than most people that
still have fully operating empathetic brain parts, and are, quite frankly
often the most idiotic but belligerent (read infantile) people in the room--
though of course if some current top-dogs design/get a stake in the business
logic of our future corporate AIs I'm sure our mechanized leaders will be just
as ruthless and scummy.

I suspect there's a host of tie wearing, sycophantic, despicable wretches out
there for every corporate leader to whom one could actually ascribe any virtue
or nobility--to one whom you can call leader without having the taste of vomit
well up in your mouth.

I'm not sure if that's a problem caused by capitalism or merely exacerbated by
it. Chicken/egg sort of thing.

Of course I can only draw upon my limited experience, but I've met very few
people in high stakes positions at major companies that I actually liked or
even considered intelligent and deserving of the benefits they receive--then
again ours is often a system of reward based on raw time spent and bribes
offered rather than actual merit. Furthermore, it's an unfortunate fact that
valuable qualities are often uncoupled; the person of great intellect may well
be a piss poor leader nine times out of ten. Granted, anyone in a higher-up
position at a major company has a hell of a lot of stress, responsibility, and
pressure on them, but that does not legitimate disgusting behavior as an
acceptable outlet, nor does it legitimate chest buffing since effective
leadership at major corporation scale often relies on the minor leadership and
autonomy of subordinates anyway.

Hierarchies are foolish.

~~~
allengeorge
I am definitely _not_ looking forward to robot overlords, and I think that
touting them as some sort of panacea is absurd. You just replaced an opaque
decision-making process with an _incredibly fast /efficient_ opaque decision-
making process.

~~~
digi_owl
Yep. My first thought was of Stross' Accelerando, and then the issue of the
paperclip maximizer.

------
KKKKkkkk1
Why did Google let an executive who had credible complaints against him resign
on his own, and even threw a goodbye party for him? I can only imagine how the
victim felt when he or she heard about that party.

~~~
shaqbert
If credible illegal behaviour has happened, why did Google not forward the
information to law enforcement?

If Amit did do something bad, allowing him to resign makes Google complicit in
letting him off the hook scot free. In that case how would the poor victim
feel?

If Amit did not do something bad, how can he ever clean his name from the
allegation?

Really poorly handled by Google. And now made even worse by leaking stuff to
the press. Stuff like that belong in a court of law, not in some HR
department.

~~~
Symmetry
Not all bad actions are illegal. It's generally legal to ask people to have
sex with you, even if they're working for you. But it would be a poor company
which tolerated that from its managers.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Is that true? Isn't harassment at least a misdemeanor?

~~~
selllikesybok
Generally speaking, no. It can escalate to the point where other criminal
statutes apply (harassment, stalking, assault). But on its own, I don't think
the US has any criminal penalties specifically for sexual harassment?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Ah! Here it is. The _Employer_ is legally liable:

[https://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/penalties-sexual-
haras...](https://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/penalties-sexual-harassment)

------
DigitalSea
Travis is such a coward. How is firing someone hired last month going to fix
the rampant toxicity over at Uber? I think the biggest action Travis could
take is stepping down as CEO. It sounds like he is central to all of the
reports of the culture of sexism and harassment over at Uber we've heard thus
far. Travis needs to go, the entire HR team needs to go and all higher up
executives and management staff needs to go as well.

~~~
meowface
I'm definitely not on Uber's side in this and would not be surprised if it's
completely true, but is there clear evidence that Travis is the root of the
problem? I see that HR doesn't want to fire people he's fond of, but is that
on orders from Travis himself?

I think he probably should resign anyway just as a good faith gesture, but I'm
curious how culpable he is personally.

~~~
chetanahuja
> I see that HR doesn't want to fire people he's fond of

If the the descriptions we've read so far about Uber HR's response to sexual
harassment and discrimination claims as well as Travis's role in them are
corroborated, the board needs to do a major housecleaning at Uber starting
from the CEO, many people in HR and many of these managers who were directly
carrying out these actions. Anything short of that sends the signal that women
are indeed considered second class citizens in the tech ecosystem.

Anything short of this would leave Uber as a silicon valley pariah. Top
engineers and managers would be reluctant to join the company. Those who stay
in Uber long term will have their brands tarnished. If we, as a group (silicon
valley startup ecosystem) fail to respond in this manner, the entire
industry's brand will be tarnished forever.

We claim to be a meritocratic and progressive bunch. It pains me to say this
as a guy in this industry, I had never imagined how serious and ugly the
sexism in some parts of the industry is. Yes I had known at a surface level
that women have more obstacles to overcome to make it in this industry. But
still Susan Fowler's blog was shocking to me. This new blogpost has doubled
the shock. I hope my actions from this point on will be guided by this
knowledge.

~~~
throwanem
> We claim to be a meritocratic and progressive bunch.

"Claim", yes.

It sure is odd that, over the span of my career, observed incidence of
workplace bullying and harassment has shown a strong positive correlation with
the frequency of such claims as those you describe; by comparison, at those
places I've worked which have no such attachment to one specific end of the
political spectrum, the worst I've seen is thoughtlessness. That's bad too, to
be sure, but those who've engaged in it have mostly been mortified when called
on it and tried hard to avoid it in future - which is the correct, and
honorable, response. Meanwhile, in Silicon Valley...

Well, I was going to make a reference to the emperor having no clothes, but
that's not really apropos, is it? After all, he had his dick hanging out by
accident.

~~~
chetanahuja
_" bullying and harassment has shown a strong positive correlation with the
frequency of such claims as those you describe"_

 _" which have no such attachment to one specific end of the political
spectrum, the worst I've seen is thoughtlessness."_

My comment was not to start a partisan political thread but your anecdotal
claims hold no merit here since CEO of Uber is known to spout Ayn Rand
bullshit in public and is known as a Trump supporter.

I was not calling Uber's culture progressive and meritocratic. It's clearly
not. I was challenging the rest of the community to treat Uber in a way that
was appropriate for a meritocratic and progressive community.

------
rattray
This seems like an absurd attempt at trying to lay the blame for recent
reports on someone who was hired a month ago?

~~~
Ensorceled
Or an effort to actually clean house.

There is not enough evidence from this one act to make ANY judgment on whether
Uber is fixing their problem or carrying on as usual.

~~~
HelloNurse
In the best case, firing a very expendable recent hire for a good reason is
much less painful than getting rid of an important engineer, or even HR and
top management. Fixing the problem would require company-destroying purges.

~~~
FireBeyond
No, the best case would be actually fixing the problem. Heaven forbid we "get
rid of an important engineer", when, literally, that's the exact problem that
got Uber into this mess. Multiple times complaints were met with "well, he's a
high performer, so try to stay on his good side, and well, if he gives you a
negative review, we can't do anything about that".

If removing the problem would destroy the company, that's a much bigger issue
in itself.

~~~
HelloNurse
I meant "the best case" as the morally best possibility in which Uber is least
evil: neglecting the serious behaviour problems, but at least firing someone
who deserved to be fired. They might also have fired an innocent, or a
conniving expendable employee, to improve their image. Today's commotion about
their CEO insulting a humble Uber driver suggests a ruthless PR campaign of
distraction and damage control.

------
startupdiscuss
“Harassment is unacceptable in any setting,” Mr. Singhal said in a statement.
“I certainly want everyone to know that I do not condone and have not
committed such behavior. In my 20-year career, I’ve never been accused of
anything like this before, and the decision to leave Google was my own.”

~~~
fullshark
So the implication is then what? Uber made the whole thing up? He's never been
accused before he was accused at Google, or before he was accused in the
media?

~~~
startupdiscuss
Just to be clear: I have no way of knowing the facts and am just commenting
based on my memory of what I read.

What he says doesn't contradict what Uber said.

Uber let him go for not revealing the accusations. They have no way of knowing
what the results of the investigation were.

~~~
gwern
"What he says doesn't contradict what Uber said. Uber let him go for not
revealing the accusations"

What he said directly contradicts what Uber said. Uber said there was an
accusation. He says there has never been an accusation. These are direct
contradictions. 1!=0.

~~~
cjhopman
I think that's an incorrect interpretation of what he said. He does not say
there has never been an accusation, he says there has never _before_ been an
accusation.

------
freyr
I remember when Singhal's hiring was discussed here on HN last month. People
wondered what would attract Singhal to Uber. Now we know: the company culture.

~~~
mc32
If history offers any clues, Ellison might be taking a look at mr Singhal
right about now.

~~~
pen2l
It can't be that Singhal's life has just _ended_. Everyone is more than their
worst moments. Everyone deserves a second chance. The guy did a complete
rewrite of Google's search engine... he made Google what it is today. The guy
deserves to use his talents somewhere. I hope he gets the help he needs and
moves on with his life peacefully.

~~~
pacaro
Nah, I disagree.

It's time for housecleaning in this industry. If it is true that he jumped
before he was pushed at Google, then they must have had some serious evidence
against him.

Should Hans Reiser be given a second chance because he's good at file systems?

Turn it around, if an engineer does amazing work all their career, and behaves
within societal norms, do they at some point accumulate enough credit to allow
them a "get out of jail free" pass?

~~~
mc32
Not sure I'd give Singhal a pass --depending on evidence provided, that said,
I'd probably give someone who develops a cure for even one of the cancers a
pass. It's probably not the PC thing to say, but if someone could have such a
positive on their side of the scale, I think I could give them a pass.

Your example has some false equivalence, Hans is a convicted murderer, Singhal
is an accused sexual harasser. Those are not equivalent.

In a purely procedural society such a hypothetical person does not get a pass
--in a more relative society he gats a pass. Kind of how we look the other way
regarding historical figures of importance and their flaws when what they
achieved transcends those flaws.

~~~
pacaro
The false equivalence was deliberate!

This is one of those subtle things that can be problematic, we don't have a
good moral calculus on where to draw the line. Slippery slope or reductio,
your choice.

Large companies often run a simple financial thought experiment:

"How much liability does this expose us to (a.k.a. how much to make this go
away -- hence the popularity of confidentiality clauses in settlements)" vs.
"What is this person worth to us"

If we accept that he left Google before they forced him out, then (cynically)
Google must have decided that the liability was greater than his value.

But when we consider this from the perspective of someone who has been abused
at their place of employment, they may be facing a career change, PTSD, you
name it. Both of the women that have written about their experiences at Uber
describe stark psychological responses to their experiences - these can/will
have lifelong impact. Does a track record of technological innovation excuse
even one instance of that?

~~~
mc32
Obviously I can't speak for the affected people, and different people will
react differently to a similar event, that said, if it happened to me, I do
think I could excuse it, but not forgive it. That is, I'd be willing to "take
one for the team". But then again, having been robbed at gunpoint in
highschool, while kind of scary hasn't scarred me measurably.

As another example, I knew women who complained about sexual harassers to me,
but as I encouraged them to seek out HR and report, they said the harassment,
in their estimation, didn't warrant getting their supervisor in trouble, that
they could handle it. Different people have different tolerances and different
ways to address unfavorable circumstance.

~~~
alpha_squared
> I'd be willing to "take one for the team"

> But then again, having been robbed at gunpoint in highschool, while kind of
> scary hasn't scarred me measurably.

A mildly dismissive viewpoint followed by an irrelevant appeal to emotion
followed by an anecdote. This feels a little unfair to those who've actually
gone through sexual harassment (which is a spectrum and ranges in severity).
Surely, there's something to be said of the psychological damage that results
from sexual harassment as well.

------
giis
Looks like they hired him without complete background check. Its good attempt.
This will look like PR stunt unless they step-up and take action on their
long-term employee(s) - regardless of high performer or not - who might have
involved in the harassments.

~~~
tbrowbdidnso
I think it's insane that "allegations" of harassment are enough to get you
fired. That sets the bar far too low, below any standard of evidence.

Replace google with some shit company that didn't want you to leave and you'll
see what I mean. I warned my boss at my current job that my last one ain't
gonna be too happy about me leaving since I was nearly irreplaceable. I'm
still betting they said terrible things about me, but what kind of bullshit
evidence is that?

~~~
untog
According to the article, he was not fired because of the allegations, but
fired because he did not disclose the nature of his departure from Google.

When you're a high up enough executive you need to be trustworthy - his first
action with the company proved that he isn't.

~~~
tbrowbdidnso
He resigned on his own terms. I know executives pull that crap all the time to
avoid getting "fired" but the fact is he quit voluntarily

~~~
lbatx
There is something called "lying by omission" or telling the truth, but not
the whole truth.

Also, if you are told to resign or you will be fired, that's not resigning on
your own terms.

------
bla2
It does feel a bit like Uber's CEO trying to get rid of credible replacements.

------
runesoerensen
Also discussed here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13747177](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13747177)

------
jameskegel
Folks, look.. I'd love to hop on the Uber hate wagon, but they didn't take
liberties with my personal info in a malicious way, change the level of their
service or drastically change the terms of the agreement. That and they
provided a service that I still find useful and commensurate for what I pay. I
could not care less what social struggles take place internally, and my once a
month fare doesn't do much to further any ill wills being schemed in a dark
room somewhere at Uber HQ. Don't construe this as me endorsing any bad actors;
I'm simply wondering how much of this outrage among HN posters is really
translating to Lyft and Taxi conversions, and how much of it is just internet
outrage and virtue signaling puffery.

~~~
tasty_freeze
Using "virtue signaling" is in vogue, and I don't like it. Yes, the idea is
real, but it has become an easy way of dismissing the legitimacy of the person
it is invoked against, without doing any work to actually support the
accusation.

It is also telling that it is used exclusively to undercut progressive stances
-- things like feminism, liberal immigration policies, fair pay, etc. It is
never used to undermine the position of someone who who has made a typically
conservative stance. Let me demonstrate.

Statement 1: "I wouldn't want to work there because they have a reputation as
having a sexist work environment."

Rejoinder 1: "Your obvious virtue signaling is a joke. I don't care what you
think."

Statement 2: "I believe in the constitution and believe guns are a significant
foundation to the freedoms we enjoy."

Rejoinder 2: "You are just virtue signaling. Ooh, look at me, I'm such a
patriot. Ha ha."

Why is it we only see type 1 rejoinders and not type 2?

~~~
Intermernet
Thanks for pointing this out. I've noticed this as well. But, you should be
careful with comments like these, as someone will probably accuse you of both
being "triggered", and of being a "cuck".

I'm still not sure if I'm annoyed or delighted to see Shakespearean insults
coming back into fashion, although I've yet to see some commenter riposte that
someone's wit is as thick as a Tewkesbury mustard...

~~~
tasty_freeze
Whenever someone uses "cuck" unironically, it tells me what tribe they belong
to. It often saves me a lot of time, as there is no need to engage them in
conversation.

~~~
thisnotmyacc
Which, ironically, is virtual signaling. That's the modern world though - lets
everyone retreat to your corners and come out throwing buzzwords at each
other.

"Misogynist"

"Cuck"

If only we could talk about ideas, not labels.

------
shard972
Has there been a tech company that has been this highly called out on their
culture before this?

~~~
dredmorbius
Well, there was that Ellen Pao suit a year or so back.

And a bunch of others:

[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sexual+harassment+silicon+valley&t...](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sexual+harassment+silicon+valley&t=ftas&ia=news)

------
darkslave
It must feel like hell to be working at Uber and wake up everyday to this
news. On the other side some people crave the drama, this is surely up to the
standards. What's next? Travis is supporting Trump?

------
oh_sigh
I have no idea what the allegations made against Singhal are, or whether there
is any veracity to them, but I do know that if we treat allegations as a
guilty verdict, then allegations, whether honest or not, become an extremely
powerful, career ending strike against someone.

I understand why Uber would drop him, even if just for PR purposes, but I'm
curious why a forum which is so concerned with upholding of classic American
values(as discussed during the recent Trump EO banning certain people from
certain states) would be willing to dismiss another American virtue: innocent
until proven guilty.

~~~
jordanlev
He resigned. So for whatever reason, he agreed to leave of his own volition.

Whether that's because he is actually guilty of the accusations and knows it,
or the CEO forced him to for publicity reasons (or both)... who knows. But
nobody has been branded officially "guilty" of a crime in terms of the
American legal system.

~~~
bitmapbrother
He resigned before being dismissed by Google according to the article.

------
coryfklein
Regardless of whether Amit is a scapegoat, we clearly need to applaud Uber for
encouraging this resignation. Another high level executive with sexual
harassment history is not needed, and I hope this signals a change of
direction for Uber that is followed up by further cleaning of house.

------
partycoder
The problem is HR ignoring sexual harassment reports. Fire whoever needs to be
fired in HR, and implement a real HR policy.

Leaking cherry-picked names to the press and scapegoating will not calm things
down.

------
digi_owl
I am "impressed" by how much weight an harassment claim carries in certain
circles these days.

Its almost as if the suits treat it like social leprosy.

------
known
How did Uber hire him without background check? I think Uber HR Head should
also resign.

------
jorblumesea
I wonder if the timing was intentional at Google. Top level technical talent
leaves, Google throws a party for him, then suddenly it comes out after the
Uber scandal that he's involved in similar proceedings?

Someone at Google was angry about the departure.

------
nullnilvoid
Glad to see Uber has taken actions to fire Singhal. He well deserves this.
Sexual harassment should not be tolerated anywhere anytime. Singhal is such a
hypocrite. He says “Harassment is unacceptable in any setting” while he did it
himself at Google(Of course he denies it but Google's internal investigations
found it credible). He said he wanted to focus on philanthropy while he joined
Uber less than a year after he left Google.

