
The Five NYC Taxi Drivers who Refused My Fare - msrpotus
https://medium.com/dear-blank/97f4610eb169
======
jcampbell1
This is a common tourist mistake. Flag the taxi, and then get in the car, say
hello, then tell the driver where you are going. Only tourists think they need
permission to get in the car, and so the drivers will refuse them. Tourists
also tend to request unprofitable routes, like going 15 blocks in Times
Square.

They are allowed to turn the off-duty light on, and to get one final fare
going their return direction at the end of their shift. This rule is coming to
an end because the GPS logs have proven that the drivers abuse this rule
extensively.

~~~
cdrxndr
This. I'm all of punishing the hell out of cabbies that cheat (e.g., fare
refusals or the out-of-city overcharged fares that were discovered via GPS
data), but the failure to get into the cab ruins the whole case.

Get in the cab. State your business. Snap a photo of the driver's license if
you are asked to leave and report him/her to 311. Blog to your heart's content
on behalf of your company's alternative service.

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jeremymims
New York has a solution for this. It's called a livery car (they're usually
Lincoln Town Cars). This is especially prudent when you have a flight to
catch.

You call and they send someone at the appointed time.

It's cheaper than Uber and the drivers are the same.

Some have phone numbers you'll never forget: (212) 777-7777 and 866-666-6666.

~~~
kapnobatairza
Agreed 100%. Uber isn't adding anything disruptive to NYC, they are just
adding another channel for booking town cars. In my personal experience, the
town car services I've been using for over a decade that I call to book with
have been faster and more reliable than my experiments with Uber.

As I mentioned in my own comment, however, this makes me wonder if there is a
space for a PAAS for Town Car services to easily roll out their own web and
mobile booking apps... That way they don't even need to cut Uber in at all.

~~~
FelixP
But at that point, why not just aggregate the services, in which case you've
effectively become Uber?

~~~
kapnobatairza
Because if you operate your own booking app you can set your own prices and
you don't have to pay Uber a cut.

You'd also be able to use it to operate a private network of drivers. For
example, large corporations can roll out a private web/mobile booking app for
the private network of drivers they have for their employees. Not many
companies still have drivers on payroll in the US, but in other countries like
the UAE or South Korea this is still more common.

Why do some businesses use Google Apps in the cloud and others maintain their
own CMS systems on their own equipment? Some businesses prefer in-house
solutions.

------
raganwald
Hacker News: Criticizes cab companies for using laws to keep Uber out, then
criticizes cabbies for not following the letter of the law with respect to
unprofitable fares.

Which is it: Do we celebrate breaking laws? Complying with them? Or do we pick
and choose the laws we respect?

~~~
commenter4694
We respect people who are working to fulfil their own needs and the needs of
others without coercion.

We celebrate those who abide by laws that benefit human dignity and
enterprise, and oppose laws that diminish those things.

------
adamjernst
It is illegal for taxi drivers to refuse your fare depending on your
destination. If their "Off Duty" light is not lit, just get in, then say your
destination. If they protest, say you'll call 311 (and start taking a picture
of their license).

If the "Off Duty" light is on, just wave them on no matter where you're going.

~~~
cududa
A driver tried to overcharge me on the way to JFK, so my seasoned NY friend
who was flying with me said very calmly. "That's fine. I work for Mayor
Bloomberg's counsel on public transport. I'm happy to resolve this issue with
him directly, if you're choosing to overcharge me."

...I've used this multiple times to assuage similar problems

------
citricsquid
I'm not entirely sure how Taxi's work in big cities, from my interaction with
them I _think_ they work based on the idea that there's always going to be x
number of people in need of cabs in any area so driving around looking for
patrons provides value to both people looking for a cab (cabs everywhere!) and
value to the cabs (people everywhere!).

If a company like Uber takes off and eventually the uber model is delivering
50% of taxi rides, won't that harm the traditional cab market (less patrons)
and in turn harm the customer experience (harder to find a taxi wherever you
are) therefore requiring people to use the uber model? For example right now
you _could_ get an Uber ride in an available city easily, _or_ you could get a
traditional cab. If Uber took 80% of the market wouldn't that force you to use
Uber?

Just thinking out loud and may be misunderstanding how it all works, but if my
thinking is along the right lines it seems there are genuine downsides to the
Uber model taking the largest market share beyond just "current taxi drivers
will have to change how they work".

------
kapnobatairza
1) The author of this post is wrong when he assumes that the driver's refused
his fare solely because JFK is a location that is "out of the way". There are
indeed set shift changes that the large majority of cabs in NYC adhere to, and
when they do change shift they leave their "off-duty" lights on and try to get
one more fare on their way back to the depot/home at the end of their shift. I
don't know how many times I've been refused by a string of taxis at the shift
change because I'm going in the wrong direction, even though my route is
normally one with the best profit margins for them.

2) To those suggesting you get in the cab before you state your destination,
the cabs that do this already know that it is harder to refuse you once you
get in the cab. That is why they will leave the doors locked, roll down their
window, and only partially position themselves in the stopping lane.... They
are ready to veer off very quickly. When it is raining outside and you are
desperately trying to catch a cab you are going to comply with this routine.

3) Also, if you do manage to enter the cab and tell them a destination that is
out of the way of their return journey, they have no qualms in telling you to
get out.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that Uber hasn't really brought anything new to New
York other than a smartphone app. Town car services in New York City are more
than plentiful and no less reliable when you call them up than when you
request one through Uber. In my my experience, the town car companies I have
used over the past decade have been much more reliable and quicker to service
me than the few times I've tested out Uber's service. I wouldn't call Uber a
disruptive service in the NYC ecosystem, just a complementary channel for
requesting private town cars.

It does make me think though, why should these town car services even cut Uber
into the loop? Maybe there is space for some type of PAAS for town car
companies to roll out their own web and mobile based booking system?

~~~
benregenspan
Was about to write the same thing. Taxi drivers aren't stupid and they weren't
"fail[ing] to respect" the author, they want to maximize their earnings, they
also want to get their cars back before the set shift change; if they're late
they have to pay a fine
(<http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/12/nyregion/12taxi.html?_r=0>).

The advice people are giving to just jump in the cab applies in the case where
the driver's off-duty light is _not_ on, but the rider looks like they're
going to some part of Brooklyn (or wherever) that the driver doesn't want to
go, and the driver is wrongly being selective. The situation of having to just
jump in the car has never come up for me in Manhattan with an on-duty car, it
has before in Brooklyn though.

~~~
kapnobatairza
Even in the case you describe, they will try to refuse or claim they don't
know the way most of the time. If you still hold your ground, you better know
the route because if you don't you can expect the cabbie to get "lost" for an
hour and have you pay for the privilege.

------
tlrobinson
Most people commenting here about how he should stop whining and suggesting he
should get in the taxi before telling the driver his destination are missing
the point.

Uber provides a better experience than taxis. If it didn't there wouldn't be
any demand and you wouldn't see posts like this on a regular basis. The taxi
industry needs to improve their service, or stop attempting to outlaw the
competition and STFU.

------
leelin
As documented in Mike Grynbaum's NY Times article, the five taxis probably
weren't lying about the shift change.

<http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/12/nyregion/12taxi.html>

It seems irrational at first, but changing shifts at the same time makes
drivers and cars more interchangeable. More importantly, it makes day-shift
vs. night-shift approximately equal in profit opportunity. It's a shame the
shift changes coincide with after-work rush hour and a popular time for night
life to wind down.

------
rwhitman
You have to get inside the cab before you tell them where you're going, they
are legally required to take you once you are inside

~~~
king_magic
In theory, sure.

In reality, during the day in midtown (and particularly around rush hour),
you're more likely going to find a cab that pulls up to you with its doors
locked, and a driver who rolls down his window to ask you where you're going.

Especially if you look like you're going to the airport.

If I have to get to the airport in NYC I book a car, every single time. I hate
dealing with cabbies' bullshit, and so I simply don't. Even if I'm fairly
certain I can get a cab. I'd rather pay more for a service I can count on over
one that is a gamble and filled with drivers who are more than willing to
deceive their customers.

Edit: context - i live in NYC, work in midtown.

~~~
rwhitman
True. Though if we're going to argue what is the most reliable way to get to
JFK from manhattan during rush hour I'd offer LIRR as the best option, since
it doesn't get stuck in traffic...

~~~
king_magic
Yeah, good point. Several of my coworkers are from my company's offices in
Canada, and when they are down here they always insist on getting a cab. It
always turns out bad, because they always seem to be leaving at rush hour. I
wish I could convince them to either just book a car or take mass transit.

------
mempko
I hate his pretentious tone. The Uber drivers do what they do not because they
are more respectful, but because you are paying out of our ass for it. You
really think they like pulling around people if they could do something else?

------
lhh
Anecdotally, having lived in NYC for a few years now, the shift change thing
is real. Some time periods are just dead for a little while. If a cab is
actually on shift and available, they'll have their light on and stop and pick
you up without asking you where you're going. If they're at the end of their
shift, they'll likely stop and ask you where you're going first (without
letting you in yet) to see if you happen to be going the same direction they
are. If a guy is at the end of his shift and he's based in Jersey, I can
understand why he wouldn't want to commit to driving 30-45 minutes in the
opposite direction. There are literally hundreds of other cabs in manhattan
that would be happy to take you to JFK, and there's a high likelihood you'd be
waiting only a few minutes for one of them to come by.

I think Uber's a great service, but this article seems to be trying to invent
a problem that doesn't really exist. For some cities, like SF and several
others in CA where taxis aren't ubiquitous, Uber makes a ton of sense. But in
manhattan, I'd say 95+% of the time I'm able to find a cab in under 5 minutes,
at a reasonable price, by walking to the nearest street corner.

------
rdl
The shift-change thing is my biggest problem with NYC taxis, but other than
that, they seem vastly better than anywhere I've tried (except London).

Plural of anecdote is not data, but what for me is a representative experience
in NYC:

I had to go from Brooklyn (after having lunch with some rap lyrics
entrepreneurs at a famous steak house), to my midtown hotel to pick up my
luggage, to JFK, all in 2h, to catch a flight. I was also somewhat
intoxicated.

Hailing a cab on the street is a lot harder in Brooklyn than Manhattan, but I
managed to do so (as I was walking to a subway station 20-30 blocks away). He
said he was going off-shift, but would drive me close to his depot (just
across the Williamsburg bridge) to change taxis. I did that, and the next
driver (who it turns out knew a few people I knew who worked as translators in
Afghanistan; he was waiting for an application to be an instructor at DLI)
drove me to my hotel, but was also going off-shift, but called _another_ taxi
who was waiting for me at the hotel to take me to JFK. Total cost was within
$10 (including tips) of just getting a single taxi from Brooklyn to midtown to
JFK, and total time was maybe 3min longer.

I took about 25 taxi rides in NYC over 2 weeks, mainly midtown and downtown,
and they were all polite, professional, competent, etc. I talked with them
about Uber, the Square reader (which apparently was just a tiny trial), etc.
This was during some kind of financial dispute they were having, so I asked
them about that (mid-summer 2012).

In SF:

Call a taxi. They don't show up. Repeat 3x.

Hail a taxi on the street. Driver verbally harasses my companion.

Next taxi I take gets "lost" in downtown.

One of ~20 taxis clips a parked car, keeps driving. (I called CHP after I got
out with his info)

I'd like Uber in NYC, but it is essential in SF.

~~~
justinlkarr
Ditto DC. Ditto Chicago (though it's better). NYC cab service is by far the
most consistently reliable this side of the Atlantic... once you get the rules
down.

One largely unknown tip is that there are many formal cab stands around NYC.
At these, another human being helps you navigate the rules and hail a cab.
They are great for the elderly, tourists and any of us when we have a big
package or a lot of bags. They are also often covered (see: cabs-in-rain
problem), discourage 'up-streaming' by other would-be riders and they seem to
attract available cabs (cabbies seem to favor the known quantity). A few are
official NYC TLC operations (airports, train stations, etc.), but many are
free-market concerns (nearly every hotel).

Here's the NYC Cab app I want: 1\. Identify and map these cab stands; 2\.
Report if they are 'open'; 3\. Show demand (number of people waiting), and;
4\. Show availability (number of cabs waiting).

------
steve8918
Whenever I've been in NYC, I've never had a problem getting cabs. Going to
Newark airport however cost me something like $110 if I remember correctly,
because the cab driver gave me these special "fees" at the end, it felt like
highway robbery.

Now in SF, it's the worst cab situation I've ever seen. I've had cabs that I
ordered via the phone never bother to show up, and once waited 90 mins in
front of a hotel, as the hotel employee tried to flag taxis as they passed by
the line. I don't bother taking the cab anymore. If I need to be somewhere for
a day like New Year's Eve, I'll park downtown earlier that afternoon and then
take the Muni there.

I just might try out Uber this New Year's Eve and see how that goes.

~~~
potatolicious
> _"Going to Newark airport however cost me something like $110 if I remember
> correctly, because the cab driver gave me these special "fees" at the end,
> it felt like highway robbery."_

It is. There is no flat rate to Newark airport, so you can either take the
metered rate or negotiate your own flat fare. Bonus of the custom-negotiated
fare is also that customarily you don't tip on it.

There's no good reason why going to EWR from Manhattan should cost $110 (short
of complete and utter gridlock). Insist on negotiating a fare, or just call a
car service - their vehicles will be nicer, the driver will be less surly, and
the price will be substantially lower.

------
pavel_lishin
For the record, do note that "the taxi industry" and "taxi drivers" are not
the same entity, do not have the same goals, and probably don't like each
other very much.

------
darklajid
I like the Uber concept and like most people I know, can feel for people
having troubles with taxis.

But after I noticed the 3rd invite-to-uber link I got worried that this is
just a piece of marketing. The count reached six and the closing words were
again a call to action to sign up. A quick search seems to indicate that you
can get benefits from the company, if you invite new users. Which someone is
_desperately_ trying in my opinion.

A disclaimer would've been appreciated.

------
dev_jim
In general, you should take the time to learn the rules and regulations before
writing things like these up:

\- If the off duty light is not on and your trip is in the five boroughs then
the cabbie cannot refuse to take you. In my couple years in New York taking
hundreds of cabs I have never had a cabbie in this situation lock his doors or
ask me where I was going before I got in the car.

\- if the off duty light is on then the cabbie has the option because he is
going in for a shift change. This happens around 4PM. They are not allowed to
put off duty light on otherwise. They often can't go to JFK because there is
another driver waiting for the car in the next hour.

You can (and often should) use a black car service when traveling during rush
hour to the airports. Uber is 2-3x the rate of a cab. A service like Dial-7 is
about 25% more and cheaper if going out of Newark.

------
locopati
Generally, it's best to get in the cab and then tell them where you're going.
Mind you, that may mean you're now in the cab with an unhappy driver, but it
used to be that was the only reliable way to get a cab from Manhattan to
Brooklyn.

------
nine_k
From my experience, subway from Manhattan to JFK might be actually faster, let
alone cheaper.

Yellow cabs have fixed fare from anywhere in NYC to any city airport. This is
written on each car. This is why, probably, they tend to refuse: this is not
that profitable.

Jumping in is best practice but not always possible. Cunning drivers would
sometimes ask you where are you going before opening doors, though legally
they don't have to, and the passenger should tell them once in the car.

/* This is another example how regulations aimed to make a service affordable
result in its becoming inferior, yadda yadda*/

~~~
jcdavis
Subway from manhattan is almost certainly not faster unless there is very
heavy traffic (which of course is fairly common on weekdays). If you want to
take transit, LIRR from Penn Station + Airtrain is generally the way to go,
even if you have to take the subway to get there (except maybe from downtown,
where its a wash)

------
subpixel
It's economics: when it's raining, cabs will pass on a long-haul fare in order
to pick up half a dozen or more short-hauls in the same 60-90 minutes.
Especially in Manhattan, a cab in the rain will never be empty, so they're
guaranteed fares and tips that will add up to more than the fare + $5 or
whatever the average airport tip is.

I don't see this as so very different from Uber raising prices in response to
demand.

As others have pointed out: get in the cab first next time to avoid
disappointment. And don't ask, tell the driver where you're going.

------
gggggggg
Can the title of this be changed? I assumed this was some new payment system
all NYC Cabs signed up for except 5. Where as the title is really 'Dear', i.e.
a letter to.

------
bluekite2000
For some reason I have a feeling if this guy pays the cab driver the same
amount he pays the uber driver, the cab driver would be more than happy to
take him

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curlypaul924
Wow that's crappy grammar.

------
msrpotus
Because, of course, taxi drivers exist solely to serve you and might not have
been going in the opposite direction of the airport.

~~~
viscanti
I guess the issue here is that it's illegal for the taxis to pass up fares
based on where the passenger is going. The fact that it happened 5 times in a
row is telling. The taxi industry is the exact group fighting for more
regulations in order to keep companies like Uber from competing, but they
don't want to follow the regulations currently in place. Experiencing things
like this really helps show that the transportation industry is ripe for being
disrupted and that companies like Uber are making serious inroads.

~~~
glenra
The taxi _industry_ is not the same thing as taxi _drivers_. The taxi industry
is dominated by the people who own taxi medallions, not the people who drive
taxis. The people who actually drive taxis are oppressed by the idiotic
inefficiencies of the current regulatory system, much like Uber is. For
instance, cabbies. can't charge more when it's raining. Or snowing. Or if
you've asked for an especially undesirable location.

------
sheraz
OP - quit your whining. Sounds like the country mouse is complaining about
life in the city. The City moves fast, and it looks like you were not moving
fast enough. Stop with tired metaphors of "small town rules and old world
business."

Pro tip: Get in the cab. Close the door. Then tell them where you are going.

That is how you get to Brooklyn or any other undesirable place in the city.
(see what I did there? the slight dig at BKLN?)

You squandered an opportunity there in Midtown. I'll explain:

1\. It was raining 2\. It was Midtown 3\. Sounds like it might have been near
shift-change.

How many times have you tried to get a cab in the rain in midtown? Given those
market conditions YOU are the common commodity with little value. There are
plenty of other customers willing to take the cab who will apply my pro-tip
above.

