
U.S. Tells Russia It Won’t Torture or Kill Snowden - andyl
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/27/world/europe/edward-snowden.html?_r=0
======
shill
We live in an era where the United States government has to make promises that
it won't torture or kill extradited persons.

Let that sink in.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Also, solitary and waterboarding aren't considered torture. By the US
government.

~~~
aqme28
They used to be though. Japanese soldiers were actually hanged for
waterboarding Americans in WWII
([http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/politics/main35546...](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/politics/main3554687.shtml)).

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dragonwriter
This would probably be a more valuable reassurance if the US didn't have a
very well-known recent history of: 1\. Committing acts widely accepted as
being torture within the definition of international agreements to which the
US while denying that they are "torture", and 2\. Farming out torture/murder
of persons under control of the US to third party states, and 3\. Being caught
red-handed misrepresenting everything it thinks it can get away with about the
Snowden case.

All of which makes it so that, taken together, no reasonable party could
trust: 1\. Any statement made by the US regarding Snowden that comes without
external confirmation or securities. 2\. Any commitment of the US not to
torture to have any substantive meaning, insofar the US has demonstrated that
it has no problem _redefining_ torture to exclude whatever it does. 3\. Any
commitment of the US not to torture or kill someone delivered into its power
to mean that the US will not cause them to be tortured or killed, insofar as
the US has demonstrated that it has no reluctance to render persons under its
control for torturing and killing.

That's not to say that I think the US government would torture or kill
Snowden, because I don't think that that is likely (for reasons unrelated to
any guarantees provided by the US government.) But I do think that the US
government's _word_ on that matter, given recent history, is absolutely
worthless.

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noonespecial
They didn't say that he _wouldn 't_ be killed or tortured however. Just that
they wouldn't be doing it. Sounds like another case of "least untruthful".

~~~
joering2
Manning wasn't tortured either. Waking someone up every 2 hours with bright
light and loud music to check if they are "okay" and alive is not a torture.
Having them sleep naked for years without a blanket to cover is not a torture
either; they were just worry that he may hang himself.

(I was sarcastic btw)

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dev1n
I like how Holder says "Despite the revocation of his passport... Snowden
remains a citizen" Holder revoked his passport without trial and yet the U.S.
still considers Snowden a citizen [1]? How is this so?

[1]:
[http://answers.usa.gov/system/selfservice/selfservice.contro...](http://answers.usa.gov/system/selfservice/selfservice.controller?PARTITION_ID=1&USERTYPE=1&LANGUAGE=en&COUNTRY=us&CONFIGURATION=1012&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=4463)

~~~
arbuge
Passports are not the same as citizenship. Many Americans are full citizens
and never bothered to apply for a passport in their lives. You were probably
passportless until you applied for a passport.

It is really hard for the US government to take away citizenship - generally
that only happens to naturalized persons who blatantly lied on their
citizenship application. For example, Nazi concentration camp guards in WW2
who hid the role they played there.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Taking away your ability to freely move outside your country of citizenship
(i.e. your passport) should be just as hard to revoke as your citizenship.

The Supreme Court has upheld the freedom to move state to state [1]; the
freedom to move through other countries outside of the US (if you're a US
citizen) is an inalienable right as well (with the permission of the hosting
countries of course).

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Guest](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Guest)

~~~
arbuge
Passport revocation is pretty routine for suspects facing serious charges
though:

[http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppi/info/info_870.html](http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppi/info/info_870.html)

A federal, state or local law enforcement agency may request the denial or
revocation of a passport on several regulatory grounds set forth in 22 C.F.R.
§§ 51.60, 51.61, and 51.62. The principal law enforcement reasons for passport
denial or revocation are an unsealed federal, state, or local felony arrest
warrant, a federal or state criminal court order or a condition of parole or
probation forbidding departure from the United States (or the jurisdiction of
the court), or a request for extradition to or from the United States. Any
such request needs to include a copy of the arrest warrant or criminal court
order. Please also be advised that all passport applicants are run through
various law enforcement and other databases.

~~~
dev1n
Thank you for the information. What you have explained is not as clearly
stated in the three bullets in the reasons for passport revocations on the
site I linked to.

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njharman
Of course not. US doesn't torture. They contract that out to friendly
totalitarian regimes. Just a rendition away.

~~~
totalforge
'Enhanced interrogation' is not torture. We would never torture. At dusk. On a
Wednesday.

~~~
graedus
Like "terrorism", it's only "torture" when the other guys do it, while we
introduce a fresh new euphemism to describe our own actions. The definitions
of the words change each time the US acts.

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mtgx
Does force feeding count? Solitary confinement and deprivation of sleep? Years
of "indefinite detention" until trial?

~~~
Nekorosu
Exactly my first thought on the subject. USA are so good at playing with words
and their meanings this days.

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Zikes
And so what if they did anyways? What would Russia (or anyone else) do about
it? I mean, the US government already blatantly lies to their own citizenry
with zero consequence, and our foreign relations can't get much worse than
they already are. I highly doubt Russia of all countries has any trust in us
in the first place.

They're already torturing people in Gitmo, and Bradley Manning, and nothing is
being done about that. Whether or not they said they wouldn't beforehand
doesn't make any of that any better.

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emhart
I read the most sinister part of this letter to be:

“We believe these assurances eliminate these asserted grounds for Mr.
Snowden’s claim that he should be treated as a refugee or granted asylum,
temporary or otherwise,”

This seems to be the US setting themselves up to challenge Snowden's standing
under international law. Not that we recognize international law, but still.

It seems very sinister to me. "We won't hurt him too bad, therefor his fears
aren't legitimate, therefor all you other nations should just send him on home
now."

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pawrvx
What about using brain washing techniques/mind control drugs on him?

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malandrew
Unfortunately they haven't said that he'd be tried in the jurisdiction the
case should be brought in, Hawaii. That's almost as important as the no death
penalty and no torture promise.

Trying him in Virginia, the home of the IC community, is pretty much a
guaranteed conviction with the most extreme sentence. It's like trying a
patent case in East Texas. Any trial in Virginia is just going to be a
kangaroo court.

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hsmyers
If you take the (possibly extreme) position that I do; namely that the act of
violating the oath to support the constitution is an act of treason as well as
evidence of deceit, why in the world would anyone give credence to Holder and
the administration that supports him? My guess is that if Snowden is foolish
enough to leave the highly visible airport surroundings, he will shortly
disappear, possibly forever.

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laughfactory
Oh, that's SUPER reassuring.

Keep Snowden safe, Russia. The US government can't be trusted to do pretty
much anything they say.

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Nekorosu
And everyone and his mother already knows that force feeding is not torture.

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fleitz
Does not seeking the death penalty preclude death by drone?

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sschueller
Define Torture.

~~~
philjackson
Jail in the US.

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coldcode
... right away.

