

Is programming really appropriate for a seven-year-old? - epall
http://blog.reindel.com/2008/12/16/is-programming-really-appropriate-for-a-seven-year-old/

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gruseom
I worked with a guy who is a very good programmer, who told me that from about
age 11, he would come home from school and program his TRS-80 until 1 AM or so
_every day_. "And I did that," he said, "for about seven years." I was
shocked: did your parents know? "Oh yes." And they didn't mind? "No, why would
they?" Well, didn't they think you needed to go outside or something? "No, I
guess not."

He's a very sweet, quiet and introverted guy whom some people think of as a
little, uh, inaccessible. But as someone else commented, there's no way of
determining cause and effect here. I'm inclined to believe he's just the way
he is, and programming had little to do with it.

A story from the same project: we were designing something at a whiteboard and
I said, about a sort of messaging sequence: It's like a game of frozen tag...
when this thingy gets a message, it has to wait until another thingy comes
along and starts it again. He said, "Frozen what?" Frozen tag. You know frozen
tag? "No, what's that?" Well, you know what tag is, right? The kids' game
called tag? "No. What's tag?"

I had to explain what "tag" was.

~~~
ConradHex
>I had to explain what "tag" was.

That's really scary. I can imagine the conversation. "It's a game that
children play." "Chil...dren?"

~~~
axod
In the UK it's commonly referred to as "it". Was he from the US?

~~~
gruseom
Canada. Which is like the US only less so :)

~~~
a-priori
Where I grew up (in Canada), it known by both names. I wouldn't be surprised
if nearby areas used the UK name of "it".

~~~
netcan
I think in Australia kids call it 'chasey.'

------
tjr
I started programming when I was about 11.

I don't remember which one of us found out about it first, but a friend of
mine and I came to the realization that the Apple IIe computer in our school
classroom had this thing called a BASIC Interpreter on it, and we could write
files of instructions to tell the computer what to do.

We loved playing the Infocom text adventure games, and we figured out that we
could use BASIC to do text input and output, and put in IF lines to direct the
computer to print out this line or that line based on what the user typed in.
So we started writing our own text adventure games. Very simple, of course,
but we loved it.

Variably, one or two other people would hang out at the computer with us,
offering suggestions and trying out some lines of BASIC. We decided that
programming the computer was more fun than going outside to play at recess, so
we began to stay inside when the other kids went out. At first there was no
problem, but eventually our teacher became concerned that we needed more
social time outside with the other kids, but agreed to let us stay inside to
program every other day.

A kid who spends time programming probably isn't on the path to being a social
butterfly, but very likely wasn't on that path in the first place anyway.
Programming is not inherintly "anti-social" or (completely) "solitary", but it
may be harder at a young age to happen upon peers who are interested in it as
well.

------
domnit
Reading is another activity done in sedentary solitude. A seven-year old
shouldn't spend all day reading or coding, and most wouldn't want to.

I wouldn't fret about how young to introduce programming to a kid. I learned
to program when my dad worked from home one day and I asked him what he was
doing.

~~~
newsycaccount
Careful or we'll never have another Einstein.

~~~
Shamiq
don't worry. it's hard to fend off one of those.

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dimitar
Pair programming. Teamwork, tolerance, communication, patience. Not bad for
children.

What bothers me is that computers are a lot less accessible today than in the
80s. I almost feel jealous that I didn't have an 8bit computer when I was a
preteen :-).

I used to spend a big chunk of my free time then reading books in the library
along with a couple of girls. We would then discuss with the other kids what
cool books we had found. Reading and discussing texts is extraordinarily fun
and it sparked my interest in reading. Programming can also be popularized the
same way.

~~~
newsycaccount
Javascript?

------
cubicle67
I started programming when I was about 9.

I was at a friends place and he was showing me this new Vic20 his parents had
bought him. I don't recall ever having anything to do with computers before,
but he spent a while showing me how you can programme it. That was it. I was
hooked.

I still have my Vic20 User Guide sitting on the bookshelf here. It's well
worn, the back cover fell off years ago, but there's no way I'm getting rid of
it.

------
ieatpaste
Did anyone else start programming on TI calculators? I was 11 when I got a
TI-83, which is essentially a portable editor and compiler. Not only could you
write TI-Basic and z80 assembly, you could write pseudo-assembly with the
Basic commands due to bad syntax checking - and you could do it anywhere! Oh
the nostalgia. I lament the day my 83 died.

But was this to the detriment of my personality? I say no. Not only did it
encourage relationships with like-minded peers, it also helped me understand
the social attitudes through design (products for people's needs). I would
like to think that I came out alright - socially-competent in respects. In
fact, I'm not even the type that you would peg as a programmer.

------
Tichy
Why not just let the kids do what they want to do? Also, at 7 they already
have maths at school. Why not throw in some LOGO exercises, too.

~~~
flashgordon
actually thats a good idea, but it has to be complemented with balance (ie for
other activities too)... kids (like anyone else) may get too comfortable with
routine and what they find easy, if they are not put in an environment that
challenges all aspects of their behaviours and/or psyche.

------
jhancock
My boy will either start with Haskell or nothing at all. None of this
imperative side-effect BS. Go functional or go home will be the word around my
house!!! ;)

~~~
Tichy
Except that "go home" would be your house, right?

~~~
jhancock
;)

------
dangrover
I started programming when I was 7 years old. I used this goofy thing called
TrueBASIC, which was the result of the guys from Dartmouth who did the
original BASIC trying to go back and modernize it. Then I moved onto HyperCard
and a bunch of other languages like that.

It gave me a headstart in my field, but not proportional to the time spent.

What I did learn from these experiences making games and little apps with
other kids online was that it's perfectly natural to put a ton of effort into
something that no one else is expecting you to do. That you can actually have
fun working and learning. That having real pride in your work is a motivator
like no other.

This seems pretty common to us HN folks, but I know so many people who are
afraid to do anything outside of school/work because the either the concept of
intrinsic motivation is alien or because they're afraid to invest effort into
something "unsanctioned" that they could fail at.

------
petercooper
It's important to note that starting early does not necessarily make you a
good programmer as an adult.

I do not remember ever not programming. My first programming memories were at
6 but I have no memories before then anyway. I have pictures and my parents
say I started with simple BASIC programs at about age 4. I started 6502
assembler at about 7, and C at 9. I was pretty good at C by 11, then went to
Pascal, and so on and so forth.

Now? I'm formally a mediocre programmer at _best_ \- despite doing it for some
23 years now on and off. In this sense, I think programming early is no
different to "drawing" or "writing" early.. just because you start early
doesn't mean you'll be a top artist or author one day. If drawing and writing
are appropriate for a seven year old, then why not programming?

~~~
a-priori
My brother and I both started programming around age 5 or 6 when we discovered
QBasic. We switched to Visual Basic years later, then he lost interest. I
picked up C++ and kept going from there.

Today, I'm a software developer and he's a network administrator. He has no
interest in programming.

------
Eliezer
I think I wrote my first programs at the age of five, on a ZX81 my uncle had
put together.

Despite this exposure to BASIC, my programming abilities seem to have
survived. So I would say - if they can hack it, GO!

------
jjs
I would have done anything to program at seven. I knew that computer games
were made by people (and sometimes, by a single person), and I was determined
to do it, but nobody around knew how to get me started.

It wasn't till I was ten or eleven that a friend announced to me that he had
found a program on his computer that would allow us to make video games
(qbasic).

I think the thing I missed out on most is having a few more years of wildly
creative programming without being encumbered by any ideas about the _right_
way to program.

------
VonGuard
I think it's appropriate, but you have to start small. Get him or her a set of
Lego Mindstorm. That's a bit over the kids head, but I'm sure you won't mind
having to spend time playing with Legos to help the kid understand.

Robotics is great for teaching programming. Alternatively, get the kid a copy
of the board game "Robo Rally."

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elviejo
You don't want your child programming in six years.

You want her PLAYING... And she can PLAY with: Logo, Lego weDO, Lego
MindStorms MIT Scratch, CMU Alice SmallTalk Etoys and OpenCorquet..

pretty entertaining, and educative... but most of all FUN

~~~
Retric
Programming can be fun. Playing is also a form of learning. At 8 I had little
interest in programming but once I figured out how to draw graphics using
QBasic I was hooked. Point, Lines, Loops, a little math, and now my rocket
ship has smoke rings as it moves across the screen.

------
known
Programming = Practicing a New Religion

~~~
wjy
Amen. That's exactly how it was for me. I think I was 10 or 11 when I got the
Vic-20 I'd been begging for. I was hooked immediately.

------
viggity
yes

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ahoyhere
I think the whole post is needlessly inflammatory.

 _Sex_ isn't appropriate for a 7-year-old.

Programming? Whatever.

(Not to mention he assumes that any interest in programming comes from the
parent leading the kid to do it. I discovered programming on my own at 6,
thanks.)

~~~
qqq
Why is sex inappropriate for young people?

I'm not trying to troll. I've genuinely never heard a _good, logical_ answer.
It seems to be a _feeling_ people have, and I'm curious if there is a reason
behind it. Of course there are dangers like adult pedophiles, but supposing
those were avoided... Perhaps it's better to consider just the case of
_seeing_ sex, not participating, and having play/pause/stop buttons in the
child's control. People loathe that, but I'm not quite sure what harm is done
besides the vague idea of "loss of innocence".

~~~
Hexstream
Was I the only one to think sex was disgusting and immoral when I was young?
(like, 5 years old)

~~~
cabalamat
When I was 15 I thought the idea of anyone over 20 doing it was disgusting.
:-)

But that's not quite what you meant.

