
Flattr 2.0 launches to the public - endijs
https://blog.flattr.net/2017/10/todays-the-day-flattr-2-0-launches-to-the-public/
======
IvanK_net
I would like to point out two things about Flattr:

\- Whenever other people send you money, Flattr keeps 10% from that money.

\- When you make money with Flattr, Flattr expects you to give this money back
to other authors you like. And they will send them back to other authors. As
the money are sent back and forth, and 10% are removed at each step, Flattr is
the only one actually making any money.

~~~
icebraining
_Flattr expects you to give this money back to other authors you like_

What does this mean?

By the way, apparently the full fee is now quite higher:
[https://blog.flattr.net/2017/10/our-new-fee-
structure/](https://blog.flattr.net/2017/10/our-new-fee-structure/)

~~~
detaro
As a European user, that surely is motivating me to sign up. _yeah, we got rid
of an efficient payment method so you 'll be paying even more. But it's
userfriendly that way!_

Given that the amounts are going to fluctuate anyways, I wonder if tracking
multiple currencies would really be so bad?

~~~
jochung
Yup. SEPA wire transfers are amazing, and it's scandalous how the credit card
oligopoly keeps the US in the dark ages when it comes to banking.

But America lives off credit, so nothing's going to change any time soon.

~~~
Tharkun
Credit cards and paper cheques.

------
endijs
I was big fan of original Flattr, that's why i was excited for 2.0 too.
However that "extension" setup is something that still keeps me in evaluation
phase, rather than 100% in. I inspected extension (not 100% of it, but a bit
of code, storage, xhr calls). Some findings:

* They use whitelist (visible in source) of sites, thus they do not record activity on all sites, but just the ones in whitelist.

* You can individually block sites from being tracked even if they are in whitelist (by click on the icon). This gets respected.

* They store a lot of data "locally". Things like timestamps, cursor activity, time spent on the page etc. This does not get sent to flattr, but sits in local storage.

* Once "site/page" qualifies for a flattr, path with title is sent to flattr. No other information (i.e. - no query string, no mouse activity etc.).

* They record things, that they should blacklist. For example - common cms paths (wp-admin/ _) is reported, but should not be. In some sites they report paths that should be blacklisted (like in twitter they report /settings/_ ).

* In youtube.com icon for extension looks disabled (like nothing is being recorded), however they still store data in local db (browsing history, videos viewed). Nothing is sent to flattr though. This should be updated. Either show in icon that you record data, or do not record anything.

All in all extension does not look malicious at the moment. But it's not
perfect either. And i'm not sure that there will be a point where i will feel
100% confident with it. Most likely i will try to use it, but will continue to
inspect regularly to see if its still solid.

Edited: fixed some typos.

~~~
vog
I never understood why they decided to coorperate with the AdBlock Plus
creators.

From a technology point of view, that might have been a gain for them.

But does this outweigh the loss of the "trust in advance" that they would
otherwise receive?

Also, what's about the risk of being dragged into bad reputation? (Which might
happen as soon as AdBlock Plus gets bad media coverage, once again.)

~~~
endijs
As Flattr 1.0 did not get any traction, my guess is that they went with
AdBlock Plus creators (Eyeo) just because Flattr run out of cash and Eyeo was
the one who offered to invest and later on to buy out. Simple math. Even
though I'm not fan of what Eyeo have done in the past, fact that old team was
able to continue to work on this, makes me hopeful, that this will not turn
out to be some sort of malicious or grey area project. But time will tell.

~~~
vog
_> makes me hopeful, that this will not turn out to be some sort of malicious
or grey area project_

Looking at their "all-knowing, privacy-friendly algorithm", they are already
there:

[https://blog.flattr.net/2017/06/key-elements-of-the-new-
flat...](https://blog.flattr.net/2017/06/key-elements-of-the-new-flattr-the-
all-knowing-privacy-friendly-algorithm/)

Even the title is an oxymoron, let alone the scary description.

~~~
endijs
Even though it's scary topic, currently they are still in good standing. At
least in my eyes. Even though they collect data (how else can you evaluate who
to flattr), its stored locally and they do not send it off. If there will ever
be a situation where they send something more than they should, this project
is dead and there will be no way back.

------
stevenj
Some things to consider about Flattr: you have to install a web browser
extension; the extension requires access to your full browsing history; it was
bought by the parent company of Adblock Plus, Eyeo.

~~~
mintplant
And they're explicitly tracking and logging it all to their servers:

> With the Flattr button it was only possible to flattr creators that joined
> Flattr. The new extension does not use the button so it does not need to
> know if there is a signed up receiver or not for flattrs. So simply put, if
> there is an owner they gets your money, if not the flattrs become the
> statistics we need to convince the creators.

Yikes. Don't use this, they clearly don't care about privacy.

~~~
lsdornheim
That is just plain wrong. Check the privacy policy:
[https://flattr.com/files/privacy_policy.pdf](https://flattr.com/files/privacy_policy.pdf)

The extension keeps everything locally, only the information necessary to make
payments is transferred. There is even a blacklist in place that prevents any
information about sensitive sites (online banking, mail accounts, other adult
content) from ever being stored.

Here is a blogpost about it: [https://blog.flattr.net/2017/06/key-elements-of-
the-new-flat...](https://blog.flattr.net/2017/06/key-elements-of-the-new-
flattr-the-all-knowing-privacy-friendly-algorithm/)

~~~
mintplant
Then how can they be collecting statistics about non-participating sites?

------
abcd_f
> _Install the desktop extension_

If they are expecting me to _install_ something on my precious machine, they'd
better be damn explicit what it is and what _exactly_ it does. I can see bits
about this and that spread across their blog posts, but nothing cohesive and
nothing on the home page itself.

All in all though - they appear to be wanting a real-time access to the
browsing activity and its full history. That's, of course, an absolute NO
regardless of how good the intentions are.

~~~
hybridtupel
There is [1] with a little bit about the privacy issue, but yes you have to
trust them, not sending more than the urls to flatter.

[1]: [https://blog.flattr.net/2017/06/key-elements-of-the-new-
flat...](https://blog.flattr.net/2017/06/key-elements-of-the-new-flattr-the-
all-knowing-privacy-friendly-algorithm/)

~~~
eterm
It shouldn't even be returning URLs, it should return URL hashes. Even
returning URLs seems like a privacy nightmare.

~~~
detaro
Since the entire purpose of transmitting URLs is making decisions (payment,
provide info to potential customers) based on the URL, hashing wouldn't do
anything.

~~~
eterm
If you have the whitelist, you compare the hash on the backend to known
hashes. That's how "Safebrowsing" things work, no reason why it couldn't work
here too.

~~~
Deimorz
You'd have to know which site each hash relates to, so that you know who to
give the money to. So the hashing wouldn't gain anything, since the system
only works if they can reverse the hash.

It can work for Safebrowsing because they can just have a gigantic list of
hashes and it doesn't matter which specific site the user is visiting, only
whether it's _any_ site in the list. But for Flattr to work, you need to know
which specific site it is.

~~~
eterm
If you produce a list of hashes, you can reverse those hashes simply comparing
against the hash.

This still isn't private for any URLs in the list, but it does anonymize any
URLs which get transmitted in case your white-listing goes bad and allows all.
It also makes it clear that you're only transmitting exact matches and not
fuzzy matches. This also makes it clear only the URL part and no URL
parameters are transmitted which is also important for privacy. (Otherwise any
URLs in redirects are also hoovered up).

I haven't looked at the flattr code but if it's regex without going through
proper URL parsing I also wouldn't trust it to go 'bad' at some point, there
are too many edge cases from the tricky to the mundane such as matching on
[http://example.com#twitter.com](http://example.com#twitter.com) , etc.

A side benefit to hashes for safebrowsing but perhaps a bad thing for this use
case is that it also effectively allows you to anonymize a whitelist from your
end-users because you can then compare client-side without leaking the list.

------
hobofan
My thoughts when reading that (in order):

\- With as many pivots as Flattr had, it should be called Flattr 5.0 (after
reading the headline)

\- Hmm, actually looks really interesting now, and they seem to have tought
about the major pitfalls (after reading the blog post)

\- Nope, not gonna touch that! (after finding out that flatter was acquired by
the makers of Adblock Plus)

(Oh boy have I made many dismissive comments today...)

~~~
tome
> \- Nope, not gonna touch that! (after finding out that flatter was acquired
> by the makers of Adblock Plus)

What's wrong with Adblock Plus? I use it. I thought it was supposed to be
good. Is there something I've missed?

~~~
CaveTech
A lot of people have issue with the fact they allow certain ads through if the
publisher pays them enough. They claim that these ads are not aggressive or
distracting, but the optics are pretty bad. A for profit ad-blocking company
that makes money from ads.

~~~
growt
They are a company so they have to make money (Most of HN readers should
relate to that).

Some of this money is also used to fight law-suits, keeping ad blocking legal
(at least in germany [1]), something a free solution like ublock origin can
not do.

[1] [https://www.golem.de/news/adblock-plus-olg-muenchen-
erklaert...](https://www.golem.de/news/adblock-plus-olg-muenchen-erklaert-
werbeblocker-fuer-zulaessig-1708-129548.html) (german)

~~~
gorhill
> something a free solution like ublock origin can not do.

The core of the lawsuit was about Eyeo's business model specifically, charging
for being listed in a whitelist. This of course does not apply to uBO.

~~~
growt
I think the lawsuits started before Eyeo introduced the whitelist?

But imagine if uBO was used by 90% of all Users, so the big publishers would
notice and lobby to get ad-blocking banned, there would be no one to defend it
then.

Or if google took over ad-blocking by making it build-in in chrome (and of
course whitelisting it's own ads).

edit: just realized you're the ublock author! I didn't mean what I said as an
insult to you (like you wouldn't care to defend adblocking). I just think it
might be beneficial to have a commercial player in ad-blocking (that isn't
google) from time to time.

~~~
jnink
>I think the lawsuits started before Eyeo introduced the whitelist? That's
correct. Publishers explicitly say that they don't want to have adblocking at
all (Whitelist is just a sideshow). You can also see that from the lobbying
activities in Germany pushing for an anti-adblocking law
([https://netzpolitik.org/2016/informationsfreiheitsanfrage-
lo...](https://netzpolitik.org/2016/informationsfreiheitsanfrage-lobbyisten-
fuer-ein-gesetzliches-verbot-von-ad-blockern/)) and other proceedings with
smaller adblockers. Plus, most obvious, it is way easier for a German
publisher to sue a German company rather than a someone behind a project whom
you don't know and obviously not seated in Europe.

------
bauerd
I remember Flattr from a long time ago, when some German podcasters made a
push for it. Thought it was a great idea at that time. If I remember
correctly, it was a small square button with the number of tippers below it
and upon click one's monthly spending balance would in part go to the creator.

A few months ago I stumbled upon Flattr again (thought it was dead till that
day). Couldn't log in with my old credentials, couldn't sign up for new ones,
but was told that I can put myself on the waiting list for "Flattr 2".

Now that this Flattr 2 thing has launched I can't help but ask myself _how
badly you can fuck up a product that once had an enthusiastic user base_. Not
only that they told existing users to sign up for their product again, the
product now is much more cumbersome (browser extension required) and costly
because of the fees.

I strongly believe that there's a need for social micropayments done right,
but I don't see myself ever making a deposit to Flattr. Someone should simply
clone Flattr 1 and keep the fees as low as possible. It was a good and much
needed product.

~~~
BlueTemplar
The Twitter ban has killed Flattr 1.0 :
[https://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/16/flattr-twitter-
pay...](https://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/16/flattr-twitter-payments-
ban/)

I don't understand how you can say that the product is more cumbersome.
Another reason that Flattr 1.0 failed is because it was too cumbersome both
for tippers (that had to click yet another "Like"-like button) and for website
developers (that had to implement the "Flattr" buttons). And Flattr 1.0
already had fees, 11% IIRC. And then Patreon swooped in with their much
simpler model (X$/month to a specific creator) and ate Flattr's lunch.

Now with Flattr 2.0 you just have a browser extension you have to install, and
it's automatic after that! How much easier can it get!?

------
leopld
I used to be quite excited about Flattr. The ideology they stand for is what
makes them exciting, so I don't want to judge them by their brand, but still I
can't help but feel that their communication and product design is honestly
terrible.

They communicated almost nothing for around 3 years, and now they're back to
relaunch. I just don't feel very confident about their organization.

~~~
bonqis
:( yeah, things took way longer than we wanted. It always does.

------
aptsurdist
I was initially very excited to see this post. I have always believed that
flattr's subscription/contribution model could be so important for supporting
creatives and grassroots efforts.

So I'm disappointed that it seems I can't signup and contribute without
installing a browser plugin that can read and change all my browser data and
browser history... nope.

Flattr team, please fix that and I'll consider giving you another chance.

P.S. I've been keeping my eye open for someone trying to implement this
subscription/contribution model using blockchain. I haven't been able to find
anything -- anyone seen that yet?

~~~
bonqis
The extension is how we can make the solution without any need for integration
into sites (and services) and without any effort for the contributor. This is
what we learned during the years to be needed for this to work on scale.

(The change history is included in the history access scope in Chrome.)

------
jasode
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I thought using Flattr is not as easy on
mobile phones. It requires using a separate browser app. (E.g. the Adblock
browser app for Android). Since ~99% of smartphone users won't using anything
but the default iPhone Safari or Android Chrome browser, this leaves out most
audiences[1] that Flattr can't reach.

[1]
[https://www.google.com/search?q=majority+browse+web+with+mob...](https://www.google.com/search?q=majority+browse+web+with+mobile+phones)

------
johndoe489
I'd rather make few, but meaningful contributions to creators with a system
like Patreon or Kickstarter, than make many "micro", meaningless payments
without a clue where my money is going.

This is failed from the get go. The whole idea that the program is going to
determine where your attention goes, and how that relates to your
contributions. Maybe I read a blog I contribute to, and it takes a lot of
time, yet I download music from an artist I want to contribute even more to,
but I spend 5 mins on his site to download the music.

For small creators I think this is dumb and almost deceitful. You're not going
to make anything from hundreds of micro payments. You aren't an (fairly
popular) artist on Spotify earning revenue from millions of streamings.

I have a small site on Patreon that people find useful and earn a little over
a hundred USD a month atm, from less than 30 patrons. I don't even have any
"perks" atm. I can't imagine earning even 10 $ from something like Flattr,
much less Google Ads (but I digress ;)).

Point being for small creators the connection to the audience, and how
meaningful their contribution is I think is key. Making micro payments in a
way that's invisible to me as a contributor, that's meaningless and I feel no
connection to the creator.

~~~
BlueTemplar
What would you rather have : ads or Flattr 2.0 micropayments? This is what it
is about.

(Yes, I know, you can block ads, but adblockers, Patreon, and subscription
efforts combined don't seem like they have put a significant dent in
advertising revenues...)

------
jyrkesh
This might seem super nitpicky (I apologize in advance), but the domain and
blog UX needs a little fixing. My 30 second experience:

\- skim blog, yeah, looks good, heard of this before, hope they're successful,
<insert privacy concerns here>, whatever

\- click logo to try and get to main site

\- sent to blog.flattr.net instead

\- go to address bar, remove "blog."

\- 404

\- ugh, maybe they're one of those that only left "www." to go their root page

\- add "www."

\- 404

\- Google "flattr"

\- it's "flattr.com"

ugh...

~~~
VickBear
For me, I have no idea what Flattr is and trying to read through their .com
site gives me no insight really. I see it is supposed to be something that
supports content creators and or creatives on the internet, but how and what?

~~~
cyphar
Effectively, you allocate a portion of funds every month to Flattr. Over that
month you can click the "flattr" button on any site that has one, and at the
end of the month your monthly contribution is split evenly among all of your
"flatter" choices. I don't know if they added recurring donations, last I
looked at this service was a couple of years ago.

EDIT: Apparently they've made it an extension that tracks your browsing
history. That's just ridiculous. It's also a shame -- Peter Sunde used to be
quite pro-privacy. But they _did_ say they wanted to liberate the extension.

~~~
johannes1234321
That was Flattered 1.0. Peter Sunde let his connection to Flattered go to
avoid issues with the PirateBay case, else there was the risk that the legal
charges could have damaged flattr ... but Flattr 1.0 never managed to be
really profitable (too few sites with a Flattr button -> not gaining many
active users -> less sites with Flattr button) thus they sold out to those
Adblocker Guys ....

~~~
bonqis
Ok, that is not really what happened. But it's a too long story for a HN
comment ;)

~~~
johannes1234321
Yes, and the exact true story is only know by the ones involved :-)

~~~
bonqis
Yes, like me.

------
dexterdog
The key to a concept like this is massive, massive adoption by content
creators. Flattr has been around for 7+ years and it's still relatively non-
existent. Heck, the subreddit has 63 subscribers.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea and was trying to pitch people for funding
on this almost 10 years ago and never hit anything but a brick wall.

~~~
majewsky
Classic chicken-egg problem.

1\. Why should a creator subscribe if it's not going to be a relevant revenue
stream?

2\. Why should a consumer subscribe (at a fixed fee, no less) if their
favorite creators do not support it?

~~~
rainbowmverse
Patreon solved this problem by being developed as a solution to the founder's
own problem (getting paid), and priming it with his own fanbase. Do flattr's
founders use it for their own creative work?

~~~
dexterdog
My problem with patreon is that (from my recollection) everything is a
subscription so you are committing to not just a fixed payment now, but a
recurring payment to a bunch of different sources. I can't just pay $X/month
and have it divided among the recipients that I actually patronized in a given
month. Patreon is great for things like supporting a band or podcaster or
something there there is not an easy way to tie it back to actual usage, but
the recipient has to make a sale up-front.

------
falcolas
Any word on their content limitations? With the recent kerfluffel between
Patreon and adult content creators, is this an alternative? I'm going to guess
not, given the association with Visa and MC only.

... Had to dig - nope:

> Pornographic or highly suggestive content or images that violate the
> applicable laws.

Their "Types of websites not permitted" list is fairly long:
[https://flattr.com/files/terms.pdf](https://flattr.com/files/terms.pdf)

~~~
bonqis
Yes, this is correct. In general payment providers has these set of
rules/policies, that because the large institutions like Visa, Mastercard and
banks does not accept these areas of payments.

------
drops
Seems like a lot of hassle. Why shouldn't creators just keep using Patreon?
None of the buzzwords in the post would convince me to switch.

~~~
detaro
For creators: Because (assuming it gains a decent userbase) Flattr will give
you money from people that not explicitly subscribe to you.

For users: because it'll spread your contribution between people who made the
content you consume, without individually selecting them and managing that
distribution over time. It'll automatically distribute it between sites you
visit.

It doesn't handle the exact same thing as Patreon, nor are they mutual
exclusive.

~~~
rainbowmverse
I always appreciate one-off sales/donations, but they aren't really dependable
the way a subscription is. You can't plan or invest around it unless the thing
you make is the kind of thing that gets a hobby/business-sustaining amount of
sales or donations.

A sale/donations says "this is cool." A subscription says "I want to see more
of this." For the former, there are sites that popped up and got better
established while flattr was twiddling its thumbs for 7 years. If I were going
to ask for donations, I'd post a ko-fi link or a bitcoin address, not ask
people to install an extension.

~~~
detaro
It's automatic distribution (with the option to also trigger one explicitly if
you want). I and many other of your visitors are just about as unlikely to
donate to you as to subscribe (well, in my case even more unlikely, since I
can't think of any comfortable one-time donation thing I use), so if we use
Flattr you can choose to get a piece of our collective pool or nothing from
us. Time will tell if it's worth it, but I don't think the framing as an
alternative makes sense. None of the things currently in use do the same
(except Brave, I haven't kept up what they are doing exactly).

------
ensignavenger
They now charge a massive 16.5% fee.

------
kybernetikos
Personally I like platforms like
[https://liberapay.com](https://liberapay.com) and
[https://gratipay.com](https://gratipay.com) which fund themselves via
themselves. I certainly think that 7.5% is too high for the kind of service
that Flattr provides.

------
dec0dedab0de
Are they claiming that installing local spyware is somehow more secure than if
they just used third party cookies to track their users usage?

I mean its bad enough that an ad network knows when you goto a participating
site, but this would have access to so much more. With zero benefit over using
the same techniques google and facebook use to track you.

~~~
bonqis
Absolutely the opposite!

We keep all your private data on your device where the algorithm runs and
makes decisions on what to flattr. Instead of sending it all to us and then do
the same on our servers. This is very conscious choice to make the service
privacy friendly.

------
bonqis
Hi, I'm Linus co-founder of Flattr. Will try and answer any questions you
might have!

------
jack_quack
Which will win

1\. Flattr 2\. Basic Attention Token 3\. Cryptocurrency browser mining?

~~~
bonqis
4\. North Korea

------
mtgx
My guess is something like STEEM will eventually become mainstream, and people
will be able to upvote/like posts on the internet with real money.

------
BLanen
Patreon with less features but a browser extension?

~~~
bonqis
Nope, Patreon focuses on person and fame, and is one to one payments. We focus
on content and divides your money to any number of creators.

------
VickBear
What is it with so many new sites and companies give such a vague description
of what they do. I am literally clueless.

------
tcmb
I used to love Flattr's general concept, but from a product management
perspective, I'm more than skeptical these changes will drive adoption. They
don't make it easier for creators, and consumers now have a default-spending
process running with questionable privacy implications, instead of making
conscious decisions about whom to support.

That being said, I think the general model of Flattr is really great and I've
always wondered why the Flattr button wasn't more widely adopted. It seemed
like the perfect solution to publishers' monetization crisis.

\- The transaction happens directly between consumer and creator, without a
detour through ads (yes, there is a payment provider involved, but it's a lot
more direct through Flattr) \- I can pay after I actually consumed the
content, when I have full information about its usefulness for me (unlike
subscription models and paywalls) \- There is a feedback mechanism built in,
that lets content creators know what consumers consider pay-worthy.

What I would have loved to see was an analysis of key inhibiting factors and
then a few well-researched product decisions and how they will remove these
inhibitors.

I'm worried by Flattr's statement in this post, saying (paraphrased) 'we're
not sure how many of you are going to like these changes, but we don't really
have any guidance to go by'.

Creators still have to sign up with Flattr, so the only thing that's easier
for them is that they don't have to add the button to their sites anymore.

Consumers still have to manage their payment details and amount per payment
cycle, what's easier for them is that they don't have to press the button
anymore. But this removes the conscious act of explicitly supporting something
I liked to a default mode of supporting everyone on whose site I spend a
certain amount of time, no matter if I actually liked what I found there (if I
understand the new model correctly).

Yes, I can go in afterwards and remove sites from the list of sites I give
money to, but that seems much more tedious than pressing a Flattr button once
per article/post/whatever that I actually enjoyed and want to consciously
support. Now I need to be careful about who I give money to.

I'd like me spending money to be a conscious decision, not an automated
process running by default in the background.

~~~
bonqis
You hit the head on the nail, but from the wrong angle ;)

That what you liked was actually exactly why we failed so far.

1\. Users needed to do a conscious choice, clicking the button. Our research
and data showed that was not what people wanted or did.

2\. The button was to hard to add to a site and also visible and promoted a
brand etc. All things publishers don't want. Besides the button does not work
on any social network or content platform. The new solution works anywhere and
is when it's hardest to use adding a meta-tag.

The new solution is a "fire and forget" solution. You set it up ones and then
it just work. For both contributors and creators/publishers.

------
visarga
I looked for 2 minutes trying to find out what "Flattr" is.

------
discordianfish
Couldn't you just use cookies to track which creator a user visits and how
often? I doubt many people are willing to install a extension for that.

~~~
bonqis
Nope, not possible on any content site (eg youtube) and it also needs the site
to add it.

Neither would it give us enough data to create what we have done. The
algorithm in the extension is smarter about what it flattrs than a cookie
could ever be. And more privacy friendly too.

------
ttoinou
So, does monthly payment works now ? I tried flattr years ago and it didn't
even do it, that's a pretty obvious feature...

~~~
bonqis
Yes, now it's a subscription service.

------
gressquel
install a software? i think im passing on this one. too much spyware floating
around these days

~~~
bonqis
There is nothing like that in our extension, feel free to check the code =)

~~~
vog
Not now, but what about the 10th update?

In general, I don't think it works that way.

If you want people to install your code in a privileged position (such as a
browser extension), you need to appear trustworthy.

You essentially ask your users for a credit of trust. And yes, being able to
say "just read the code" is absolutely necessary, but it is not sufficient.
You usually get trust by having a great track record in the past, or by
cooperating with others who do have such a track record.

------
j05huaNathaniel
I just don't see this being worthwhile.

