
Suicide - llambda
http://raganwald.posterous.com/suicide
======
mixmax
This is important, and startup founders are especially vulnerable.

The expectations, both from the world and founders themselves, are often
impossibly high - afterall there can be only one facebook and one Google.
Failure in startups isn't the same as failure in a corporate job. Startups are
so much harder that if you make it to the first line of code you've already
beat 90% of the people that want to do a startup. If you launch you've beat
99%. If you actually become ramen profitable you're a superstar in my eyes.

The problem of suicide and depression among startup founders is more
pronounced than you might think, both because of the high expectations, but
also because the founder is the one who needs to always be positive, egg
others on, and never show weakness. Often while constantly doubting his (or
her) own abilities and chances of success. This is incredibly hard and can end
in catastrophe if you don't talk to someone about it. It even happened for a
ycombinator company (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=859117>).

Remember to enjoy the journey - it's fun, and if you fail you'll be held in
extremely high regard amongst fellow entrepreneurs and HN'ers for having
tried. Most people just dream, the people that actually try are stars.

If you have any questions, or just want to talk please contact me. My mail is
in my profile.

~~~
seiji
You hit the cause in your third paragraph.

Suicidal ideation is a process starting with falling short of expectations
then blaming _yourself_ for the shortfall. You start incorrectly rationalizing
reasons why everything is your fault and how nothing can get better.
Negativity permeates every thought. Your world breaks down into tiny logical
blocks and you rationalize why everything is hopeless.

The only way out is to break the chain of elevating mental isolation and
negativity. It's easier to stop it in the nascent stages. Try not to blame
yourself. The world is a big place and we have so much to do.

~~~
_delirium
> The only way out is to break the chain of elevating mental isolation and
> negativity.

How exactly to do that is the tricky part, though (and not just tricky for
individuals, but the subject of much debate in psychiatry). Possibilities
include pharmacological intervention, therapy, or some sort of change in
circumstances. The latter is a really large set of options, but also poorly
understood: there are semi-regular reports of people completely changing
outlook after significant changes in circumstances (e.g. changing careers),
but it's very hard to come up with rigorous evaluation of the success of that
"treatment option", because it's not very easy to run a controlled study, and
not always an available option.

~~~
metabren
> How exactly to do that is the tricky part, though

A good start might be with the book "Learned Optimism" from Martin Seligman —
[http://www.amazon.com/Learned-Optimism-Change-Your-
Mind/dp/0...](http://www.amazon.com/Learned-Optimism-Change-Your-
Mind/dp/0671019112).

He argues that most depression is just severe learned helplessness caused by
your own pessimistic inner explanations of why events happened. He makes a
good case for it & suggests techniques to build better explanatory habits. I
haven't finished the book yet but so far it's quite compelling.

~~~
raganwald
I don’t know if it is helpful with suicidal thoughts, but Learned Optimism has
helped me with a more generalized despondency and helplessness:

[https://github.com/raganwald/homoiconic/blob/master/2009-05-...](https://github.com/raganwald/homoiconic/blob/master/2009-05-01/optimism.md)

My won feelings about helplessness learning to play Go parallel feelings if
helplessness in my life trying other things where it felt like I had no idea
what I was doing and no control over the outcome:

[https://github.com/raganwald/homoiconic/blob/master/2009-10-...](https://github.com/raganwald/homoiconic/blob/master/2009-10-20/high_anxiety.md)

Again, I don’t know if any of this is helpful when someone is at the point of
contemplating ending their own life.

~~~
smhinsey
Obviously since you posted this 21 minutes ago I haven't exactly had the time
to get into it seriously, but reading that inspired me to check out Learned
Optimism and just reading the first chapter it speaks to my personal struggle.
Thanks.

------
seiji
Posts like these are dangerous. If someone feels horrible, seeing "You may
feel like you are alone and nobody is as bad a person as you are" just makes
the person feel worse.

You can't shove detached, inexperienced logic in the face of someone with
temporarily broken brain chemistry.

For a more thorough understanding see
[http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4345/is_7_32/ai_n291...](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4345/is_7_32/ai_n29111781/)

~~~
raganwald
Thank you. What do you suggest?

~~~
seiji
I've never been entirely sure. A while ago I made <http://suicidescale.com/>
but the wording still feels awkward to me. You have to strike a balance
between explaining and understanding without sounding condescending.

Explaining the temporary condition can help so people know they aren't alone
(knowing you are one of millions who have had the same exact thought processes
is a wake up call).

Mentioning the processes can be caused by certain foods and medications in
some people seems like a good idea too. ("Feeling suicidal? Did you just eat
twelve pancakes with half a gallon of syrup? All the sugars have screwed you
up for a while. Sleep it off. Did you just start a new antibiotic and now you
want to jump off a bridge? Sleep it off. Call your doctor to get different
meds. Your brain will reset.")

~~~
csomar
I just checked your website. I'm in the step 5. And, yes, I now feel this post
is very dangerous because I never thought of suicide. Worse. I have recently
dropped of colleague and don't have any friends right now. (didn't talk with a
human for something like 15-20 days). Any quick remedies? I'm feeling more
anxious.

~~~
seiji
As vtail said, professional help is the long term treatment. If you need a
quick fix, shrink your mind down to simple tasks using internet drugs:
cuteoverload, reddit, hulu, tvtropes, HN, plan a trip to japan (doesn't matter
if you even go), <http://symphonyofscience.com/videos.html> , ...

For me, two things help: reminding myself nothing matters as much as I think
it matters and setting a medium-term goal. Our decisions can be _anything_ and
it's fine. The world--universe--is a big place. Take risks. Nothing worthwhile
is judging you. So, build something new. Meet people. If you make a fool of
yourself, it doesn't matter _at all._ Let other people wonder why you're
impervious to their hostility. You've seen the truth. In the grand scheme of
things, we can't even be seen:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Deep_Field>

The world is yours to do with as you please. Take advantage of it.

~~~
ikirill
To tvtropes I also want to add comedy and music. Humour is a mild painkiller,
interestingly enough:
[http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=laughing-
ma...](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=laughing-matters)

------
droithomme
Some people I have known got to the point where they've tried calling those
hotlines. Their feedback is that the hotlines were not useful at all and just
made them more frustrated. Perhaps there are better options?

Since this is posted here I'll assume highly intelligent but depressed people
are the target audience. Do we know that methods used at hotlines work on all
categories of people equally?

When I was in high school several decades ago I knew a girl that had seriously
attempted it a few times. One day I brainstormed with her on more interesting
ways she could do it. Some quite flamboyant, which required drawing diagrams.
I got in trouble for having this discussion with her. But she stopped trying
and later told me it was because the conversation she had with me was the
first time someone had really heard her talking and treated her as an
individual rather than just try to stop her from being depressed because
depression makes the fake happiness society uncomfortable.

------
FuzzyDunlop
I've been previously diagnosed with clinical depression (although I think I've
managed to recover from it now, touch wood) and, stuff like this is so
insanely difficult to process, let alone understand.

A depressed person faces not only the pressures of their own mind distorting
their own reality, of their own feelings seemingly working against them and
altering their behaviour; they face the pressure of friends and family who
don't or can't understand what on earth it is they're suffering.

The more people can understand this and take it seriously, the (marginally)
less difficult it will be for depressed people to seek help and not feel
ashamed of suffering a 'mental illness'. And I know as far as my own
experiences go, I wouldn't wish depression on my worst enemy.

------
dragonquest
Ok, that was a little scary as a title considering the URL was raganwald's
blog. I had to click it fast to ensure that all was safe. Perhaps a better
title, atleast on HN is in order?

~~~
rhizome
Yeah, for me it seemed that if someone needs to see his words that the
headline might not be the best motivator.

------
raganwald
My thanks to @knowtheory for pointing out that suicidal people often feel
alone/apart/disconnected from other people. I struggle with this, myself.

~~~
kmfrk
This point is also relevant with New Year's Eve coming up.

Invite a couple of extra people to your New Year's Eve party whom you might
not have thought of inviting, and you might do more good than you think.

It's also worth mentioning that being alone is perfectly fine, but when people
become lonely, it's something that needs to be addressed. It's all a state of
mind, after all.

~~~
waterhouse
Btw, I figured this out at some point:

A cursory examination will likely not demonstrate loneliness. If I am lonely,
then I will be happy when I'm in the presence of any of my friends, and so
I'll appear happy and just fine to them. I'll even feel happy, in case they
ask me how I am. Loneliness is thus peculiarly difficult to diagnose except
deliberately.

[I suppose that once you know this, you might try to detect loneliness as
"being really happy to see you" or something. Obviously you might find false
positives (being happy for other reasons), or false negatives (if they don't
feel you're a very close friend). Still, it's a starting point.

The cure, of course, is to continue to be with your friend for as long as he
wants (to the degree possible), let him interact with you, and encourage him
to share his feelings and his doings with you. (But no pressure. Encouragement
is a friend who's happy to be with you and happy to hear anything you have to
say without giving unasked-for criticism, not one who asks you hard questions
like "How are you?" Such a question can be helpful to establish that you're
interested or willing to listen, but it can also be difficult and annoying to
answer, so don't press if he stumbles on it.)

This is kind of a natural resolution, isn't it? I've said that, in response to
seeing that your friend wants to be with you, you should continue to be with
your friend; and that you should encourage him to share things that he
probably would like to share with you (in a way that isn't unpleasant or
difficult). This is kind of "duh, that's how to be a good friend", and "that's
how to make good conversation, at least in this situation". But it's probably
helpful to have things like this written down; not everyone has figured out or
internalized every part of it by himself.]

------
fs111
There is an organization called bluehackers, that tries the help the hacker-
minded (aka hn-style) crowd with, to deal with those days:
<http://bluehackers.org/> If it saves one life, it's worth it.

------
richardburton
I think that manic-depression is extremely common among startup entrepreneurs.
The emotional roller-coaster one goes through when trying to create a company
exacerbates any bipolar tendencies that might already be there. The great news
is that when one is in the state of hypomania they are often at your most
creative and productive. Read this description from a well-known, UK-based
charity in the UK:

"When I'm in a manic phase, I feel as though I am capable of anything and
everything. This can be an amazing feeling, but I sometimes get frustrated and
angry with people. Ideas flow constantly and quickly, as if my brain is on
fast-forward. Everything happening in the world has significance in my life.
But when I'm depressed, it's as if I'm completely crushed and living in slow
motion. I feel capable of nothing. "
[http://www.mind.org.uk/help/diagnoses_and_conditions/bipolar...](http://www.mind.org.uk/help/diagnoses_and_conditions/bipolar_disorder_manic_depression)

------
tokenadult
I was glad to upvote the thoughtful and helpful blog post submitted here and
many of the thoughtful comments that other HN participants have posted here to
help one another. I'm looking up Web links about what season of the year is
the peak season for suicide

[http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/do-suicides-really-peak-
duri...](http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/do-suicides-really-peak-during-the-
holidays-239/)

because of the mention of the Christmas and New Year holiday season in the
post. Any time of year is the wrong time to kill yourself, but according to
medical textbooks I have read, the peak danger of completed suicide for most
people who live in temperate zones in the Northern Hemisphere is actually May
rather than the turn of the Gregorian Calendar year.

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/may/12/mentalhealth.s...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/may/12/mentalhealth.society)

The risk factor that peaks in May appears to be related to daylight variation
with different seasons. Data from the Southern Hemisphere temperate zones and
from the tropics support the hypothesis that sunlight variation is one
influence on risk of completed suicide.

But anyway it's good any time of the year to remind people how to get help
when they think about harming themselves. Other resources I just turned up
during my Web search include

<http://www.nmha.org/go/suicide>

[http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/suicide/prevention.htm...](http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/suicide/prevention.html)

<http://www.who.int/features/qa/24/en/index.html>

Stay healthy and enjoy the holidays and many years afterward.

------
choc_is_back
Just to add a more optimistic note here: I had a severe suicidal depression a
couple of years ago, and managed to completely recover from it by learning
something new, which is one of the things that always lifts my spirits: web
development. I am now in the process of starting my first startup and feel
very happy about my life.

(I took antidepressants btw, don't be scared to take pills - they very often
help and am convinced they made a difference for me)

So, if you are feeling depressed and learning new things tends to get you
excited, consider dropping everything that is bringing you down (I started
ignoring my job pretty much and got fired eventually, but it saved my life so
I have no regrets), consider learning something new!

------
jnordell
Really important stuff. Man, Raganwald, thanks so much for this blog post.

I think one important thing for anyone who's struggling to remember is that
however you're feeling, _it's not permanent._ It's temporary. It will change.
It might _feel_ like things are never going to get better, but they will. It
might _feel_ like you're never going to feel better, but you will. You just
have to hold tight to that fact, and trust it, even if it seems impossible.
Then, six months or a year or three years from now, you'll be so glad that you
hung on.

I recently learned that a former student of mine committed suicide, and I
think about him all the time. I wish I could have told him all this while he
was alive.

Thanks again for this post.

------
oomkiller
This is a good little post, but you actually are branded in the US if you seek
paid treatment for depression. See this:
<http://behavioral.kaiserpapers.org/prozacharm.html>

~~~
martingordon
The article doesn't state when it's from, but it does mention a 2001
Georgetown study, which means that it's probably from around 2001-2002.

It looks like the health care reform of 2010 prevents insurance companies from
denying you coverage due to pre-existing conditions (starting in 2014):
[http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2010/0324/Health-
care-...](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2010/0324/Health-care-reform-
bill-101-rules-for-preexisting-conditions)

~~~
rdl
Even earlier in some states, too. If I were uninsurable, I'd give serious
consideration to moving someplace like Seattle.

~~~
MartinCron
Move to Seattle and the lack of sunlight will pretty much guarantee that you
need antidepressants.

Spoken as someone who knows.

~~~
philwelch
They make lamps for that.

~~~
MartinCron
Absolutely, and many people have claimed they have worked for them. My mileage
has varied.

------
simon
Wonderful thought and worthwhile effort. And I see that Facebook is also
making similar efforts. I'm glad to see that.

My meta-thought about this is how do you make this proactive instead of
passive? If you don't visit raganwald or Facebook, how will you get any
encouragement this Christmas season?

I've often thought that some corners of the Internet could benefit from a
virtual chaplain who could approach members of their online community if they
suspected something was wrong. Or they could be a low threat pre-suicide (or
other issue) conversation and make themself very approachable for those moving
in that direction to try to steer them onto more healthy directions.

Is this a good idea, or is it just my inner pastor thinking out loud?

~~~
nyellin
I don't think it's that easy to tell, especially not on the internet. A better
question might be, how do you reach out to people suffering in silence and
convince them it is okay to talk? (An anonymous online suicide hotline which
_doesn't_ report cases to the authorities might help, but I suspect it would
be trolled.)

What Facebook effort are you referring to?

~~~
18pfsmt
I just heard this on NPR this morning, so I may not have the specifics:
Apparently, FB will provide a link that somebody can click if one of their
friends writes something that friend thinks indicates their friend may be
having suicidal thoughts, and their friend will get a message for a real-time
chat with someone from a suicide prevention place.

------
arry
So what? There are people who'd like to help you. So what? When I have
suicidal thoughts, I don't care in the least about other people who could help
me. Posts like this are helpful, of course, to raise the awareness of the
problem, for other people. But when I, as a person thinks about suicide at the
moment, look at this page, I just think: so what? and close the browser tab.

~~~
stonemetal
Exactly! That is one of the odd things about how people couch this. They
always talk about coming to them for help. It has to be an intervention, not
an offer for help. If my goal is to remove my cranium with a shotgun, and you
have just offered to "help" (prevent me from achieving that goal), why in the
hell would I ever seek your help? If someone comes to you for help they aren't
seriously considering anything, buy them a beer and let them bitch, help them
get in to see a shrink.

~~~
reallythatsbs
I concur. That is why I hate some of these types of blog posts. Even if you
talked to someone those that are determined will do what they please. You can
give them a 30sec elevator pitch of why not to, but ultimately leave them be
as long as they aren't physically hurting others.

People who have seriously contemplated know whether or not they are happy and
weighed the options. At some point you say screw it. If you have goals or
aspirations, dreams and can't achieve them then why keeping doing mediocre
crap and be miserable. That is settling for 2nd..3rd etc. among other crap
going on in their lives.

I hate people that think they have a right to decide for others what I want to
do with my life. Maybe consider the fact that the person weighed available
options and that is their choice and hope that they find another route.

------
chc
This is a good thing to post. It's uncomfortable to talk about, but it needs
to be done, so thank you, raganwald.

That said, if I can offer just a small critique: I always found the sentiment
of "Just talk to someone" to be insufficient, because even if other people
might understand, sometimes you don't feel like they _should have to_
understand. If I'm too weak to handle my circumstances myself, you'll reason,
it would just make me an even worse person if I dumped that burden on somebody
else. I think it's important to convey to depressed people that somebody
_wants_ to help, because that isn't necessarily obvious when even _you_ don't
like you.

(Again, I don't mean to bash on raganwald's post by any means. It's just a
perspective that I think it's easy to forget when you're not in that mindset.)

~~~
raganwald
Thank you! I am not a professional and there’s no particular reason that what
I write is going to be helpful, and as others have pointed out, such appeals
might sometimes be harmful.

In the end, my moral dilemna feels like the “Politician’s Fallacy:”

\- Something must be done.

\- This is something.

\- Therefore we must do it.

But doing the wrong thing is often worse than doing nothing at all.

~~~
jodrellblank
This feels like one of those comments that I'm going to write with good
intentions and come away with one downvote and no replies. Still;

Your post is CYA advice. It's the socially acceptable least you could do - to
encourage talking to a professional. not to imply that you owe more, or
practically that you could do more, but...

You want to do something

You are afraid of making it worse

Those constraints lead to a nonpost. Who is adult and hasn't heard of a
suicide hotline? Why is financial advice to always spread your investments to
minimise catastrophic risk in the conmments of a site encouraging people to go
all-in on a startup life? Because its nuance free and safe advice, at worst it
can't hurt you for recommending it.

But what else can you do? Shrugs helplessly.

~~~
raganwald
If you've been folowing my internet writing since 2004, you will notce that I
have done many related things. It's a false *-chotomy to think that there is
only one post you can make and that threfore it s critical that it be the one
best possible post, and just do that.

------
sophacles
So heres my experience with this whole topic:

When I was very young, I remember feeling trapped in life. It wasn't a
particularly terrible life, but not a particularly great one either. There
were times when I just didn't want it. As I got older, I spent a lot of time
mildly depressed. There were expectations I couldn't live up to, it seemed my
family wanted me to be perfect, and the repercussions for not being so were
pretty emotionally damaging. Somehow I internalized this expectation, and it
only worsened all of it. There were a lot of things that I didn't know how to
do well: make close friends, talk to girls, ask for help. A lot of this was
probably BS at first, and in retrospect everyone went through it. I know that
for me there was a weird feedback loop tho, reinforced by craziness in my
family, where they would push away my friends, and would ridicule me for
needing help.

Anyway, all that led to this scenario where I felt even more alone an trapped.
As others were working through this stuff, I couldn't figure out how to even
start going with it. I wasn't a "forever alone" kind of guy, I stuttered
through this stuff, but not in a particularly meaningful way. Not existing
sounded amazing. I contemplated it off and on. At one point I had a serious
sit-down with myself about the topic of suicide. I went over the pros, the
cons, ways to do it, the consequences to others and so on. I decided, this was
an option. I also realized, I only get to choose it once.

I found this realization very comforting.

Ever since, I have been slightly annoyed at the "suicide is not the answer"
stuff I read. I get pissed at the people who deride it. I hate the people who
talk about it as not an option. It is an option, but a pretty drastic one.
(Raganwald: I like your stuff usually, but your blog post kind of annoyed me,
even tho it's not terrible advice... it just doesn't work for me - nothing
personal)

Since this realization, I have gone through some pretty down times. As I
mention above, I'm a bit socially/emotionally challenged, and sometimes I just
feel like I'm getting nowhere in the world of people. I see them over there
doing their thing, and I just don't understand how it works. I occasionally
even see them not as people, but the same way I would see a group of dogs or
other animals interacting -- I notice their behaviours, I try to figure out
WTF it is all about, but I just can't relate. This really bothers me when it
happens. Other times I get really down over messing up with people, or not
being a top 50 programmer, or not being 4 hr marathoner, or whatever else my
perfectionism is going on about. In all these cases, if it's bad enough, I get
this thought:

"You can just give up. You can stop existing."

I don't shy away from it, I don't push it down, that seems to make it worse.
I'm not scared of it, I welcome it. Like I said above, it is a comforting
thought to me. It reminds me I have some power in the world, no matter how
fucked up things are at the moment. Afterwards, the next thought comes:

"You only get to do this once. Is this the time?"

And I get to decide if it makes sense. And I only need to decide for today. Do
I want to do this today? Sure things are fucked up, but I sure would exit in a
pretty shitty situation: things undone, house a mess, porn not properly
deleted from the computer, finances not in order, etc. So I won't do it today.
Maybe I'll start getting ready to do it. Tomorrow I can decide again.

Sometimes this goes on for a day. Sometimes it goes on for a week. But the
very act of contemplating it seems to have a healing power for me. Now that I
know I can at least do this, and I'm going to do it right, it reminds me that
I can maybe do stuff. Getting ready for it, reminds me more that maybe I'm not
so trapped, and there is a path forward, paradoxically getting me to the point
where I usually put aside the silliness after a while, with a freshly
organized set of life surroundings. Sometimes it's more than a while, but for
me, this works.

I'm putting this out here, for the people who are contemplating suicide, and
somehow reading these comments. Contemplate away, I won't begrudge you that.
I'd like to remind you that this is a one-time deal tho, so if you're going to
do it, make sure this is the right answer for you. If you are unsure, wait a
while, see what else you can do also - the option doesn't go away, in fact
this basic option is the greatest power you have, don't squander it.

Also: after this article leaves the front page, I'm going to delete this post,
because while I think it is important, I don't know that having these words
public for posterity is a wise decision.

~~~
noduerme
"You only get to do this once. Is this the time?"

Have you ever done heroin? Get drunk with a bunch of kids you don't know?
Skydive? Steal a car? Wake up in a hotel in Mexico? Sorry to be flip, but
there are probably a lot of things you've never done that you'd feel rotten
about the next day, but at least there'd be a next day, and you could do it
again. "Not being" is an option, but it's a stupid one. I didn't like
Raganwald's post either, because it's saccharine and condescending.

Let's face facts: Most people who don't want you to kill yourself are just
scared that life's meaningless; when they see people around them committing
suicide, it upsets their sense of everything being okay. That's why they tell
you not to do it.

I say screw that. I feel nothing for people who kill themselves. I think it's
incredibly stupid, but hey, that's evolution. If you can't find anything worth
living for, do it. You've gotta be pretty dumb not to think of any other way
to spend your evening, but the world's better off without dumb people. QED.

~~~
westiseast
This is an incredibly insensitive comment, I'm shocked, almost disgusted. One
of the most admirable qualities that humans possess is empathy - the ability
to understand and identify with someone else's emotional experiences. We reach
out to people in such extreme emotional pain because in some way, we
experience some of that pain. I'm using the royal 'we', but it seems you lack
that ability to show any empathy whatsoever...

~~~
noduerme
Really? Suicide's _not_ a stupid thing to do? I guess there are cases where
it's not -- like if you're terminal, or facing life in prison. That's a
rational choice and I can empathize with those people. I've lived with
depression and with other people who've suffered from it. Four of my friends
attempted suicide in high school, and one succeeded. It made me _angry_. How
dare they be so stupid. And since the two who survived it got better, they
agreed. I get that it's usually triggered by a chemical imbalance, but people
who are capable of having this discussion, and capable of writing the above,
can choose to live and treat their chemistry, or they can choose not to. What
they can't do is get pity from rational people just for saying they view
suicide as a rational choice, because it's not, and I'm sick of hearing that.
Try living with a depressed person and finding yourself responsible for their
happiness; that line of reasoning wears thin.

So, right. I have no pity for people who choose to make or wallow in their own
problems. Why should I? I reserve my empathy for people who don't have enough
to eat, people who got cheated, falsely imprisoned, wrongly executed, were
victims of racism, domestic violence, rape, slavery, forced prostitution, and
child abuse; or who through no fault of their own had the bad luck to be born
in Burma or North Korea. Not people who had the amazing good luck to be born
in a first-world country where it rains antidepressants, distractions and
opportunities, and who find so much time to spend navel-gazing that they
finally hate themselves and want to die.

~~~
hackinthebochs
>It made me angry. How dare they be so stupid

And what right is it of yours to be angry? What right is it of yours to judge
their decision? Those who react this way are the most disgustingly selfish
people.

~~~
noduerme
It's my right as a person with an opinion. I'm not going to sit here and
pretend that it was a valuable choice or a reasonable decision for them to
make. I don't lie to my friends, and I don't paper things over.

Quite a judgmental statement, to tell someone who's been through it four times
what his reaction should be. Maybe it's something I've thought through and
been through a few times, and decided that blunt force rather than kid-gloves
is the only way to get through to people who want to take their own life.

~~~
emptyTempory
Been through it too, here's my story:

My father killed himself when I was in high school after numerous failed
attempts and a period of institutionalisation. A couple of years later a close
friend killed himself, then an acquaintance a bit after that. I've suffered
clinical depression most of my adult life, never seriously contemplated
suicide but have thought deeply on it for many years.

Now that I've established my credibility by daring anyone to challenge my sad
tale, let me tell you that to me your post reads like an excuse to be a
righteous loud mouth on the topic of suicide without having to get involved
with any of the ugly and _complicated_ realities.

Suicide has touched your life. Doesn't make you an expert.

~~~
noduerme
I'm not an expert. I didn't claim to be. I'm saying, there's always another
way. Another option. And my modus operandi in dealing with it is informed by
knowing what happens if you're too soft and tiptoe around someone's feelings
who's considering it.

I don't know anyone who's survived an attempt, or who's been depressed enough
to talk about it, who hasn't had better days afterwards. One of my friends is
still -- well, sick, I think is the word for it. I've seen how too much
sympathy just feeds suicidal thoughts and self-absorption. Talk about anything
other than their problem. Get them out of the house. I've seen how being
occupied with something brings her back to reality, and makes her 99% better.
I'm not unthinkingly being a righteous loud-mouth; I realize my approach to
the subject may rub the wrong way on people who think that talking can solve
everything.

I don't know if you've been in a situation where you've been thrown into being
the default "therapist" for someone you love, who refused to seek help and was
telling you that they were considering killing themselves. I have. You'd
probably think based on my statements that I'd be such a rotten bastard, it's
hard to imagine anyone confiding in me, but it seems to work the opposite way.
Maybe people want to hear something blunt. At any rate, there's nothing I've
said here that I haven't said to a suicidal friend, in basically the same
tone.

I know it does no good, _at that moment_ , to become angry with a clinically
depressed person who's out of their mind and talking crazy/suicidal. You want
to throw water over them or slap them and snap them out of it, but you can't.
At least, in my experience, anger at that moment doesn't work. What you _can_
do is keep them alive, stay with them, distract them, and talk them back to
reality. And as soon as they're back, hold up a mirror and show them how
scary, stupid and irrational they were being. Make them admit they were being
crazy. Make them swear they'll never do it again, even if you don't believe
them. And of course, tell them why it scared you, and why it was a place they
need to learn to stay away from in their own mind. Warn them when you see them
changing that way again. Remind them of the last time. Sanity a muscle. Anyone
can learn how to exercise it.

The secret to being sane is _just don't go there_. Take the option off the
table, and start dealing with the world around you, and fixing the way you
look at it, until you make it a tolerable place to be. Lower your expectations
until you're happy just to wake up in the morning. Horrible? Yeah, but there's
no rational alternative.

This isn't me "disrupting", it's not an excuse. It's an alternative way of
dealing with the subject. I realize it probably sounds barbaric and medieval,
but it's just practical. This is just the only way I've found to deal with
clinically depressed people on a long-running basis, and the wall I've built
to try and keep people I love -- and myself -- sane, alive, and improving.

------
Mz
I attempted suicide at age 17. I was also hospitalized twice for being
suicidal, once in my teens and once in my twenties. I spent a lot of time in
therapy (to deal with an abusive childhood), a lot of time working on getting
a life and doing some serious problem solving (with regards to personal
issues), and a lot of time resolving underlying health issues (that were
undiagnosed when I was younger). I am currently facing eviction and doing so
fairly calmly. I have no idea where I will go. I may literally be sleeping in
the woods in winter come January. And I feel like I'm losing my mind because
I'm not suicidal when I "should" be.

If, as one person here commented, you feel there is something broken with your
brain, take that seriously. I've read some things about arachadonic acid and
depression. And this happens to be an issue I addressed for unrelated reasons.
I consciously and intentionally changed my body chemistry to address my health
issues and that is likely part of why I am currently _not_ suicidal in spite
of being very short of sleep and in serious financial trouble and feeling like
the entire world doesn't give a flying fuck about my accomplishments, my
situation and so on.

If you are going through major transitions and that is a source of stress,
there are more effective means to deal with those things too. I'm too short of
sleep to write a book on the topic, I just want to make the point that if you
feel something really negative, don't focus on your feelings. Focus on finding
the roots of the problem, whether that is solving stressful life situations,
addressing brain chemistry issues or something else.

Anyway, this is not something you have to just swallow. And in my experience,
the touchy-feely emotional outreach stuff is not real effective. I was
suicidal in part due to health issues and in part due to being molested and
raped. Healing my sexuality and my body has changed that and I can say that
with confidence because I've spent the last 12 days wondering why on earth I
am _not_ suicidal while facing eviction, dealing with a mountain of
debt...etc...ad nauseum. Instead of falling apart and having histrionics, I am
making plans to the best of my ability and working overtime.

Best of luck to anyone struggling with something like this.

~~~
justaname
Thanks for your honesty. I live in a country right now where everything gets
swept under the rug. No courage left here to face reality.

I seriously hope you can stay so strong and pull through. Keep on keeping on.

------
xenophanes
If you call the numbers given, is there any possibility they will call the
police or otherwise interfere with you without your consent? Or is it a purely
voluntary interaction in which they really just talk and listen?

~~~
madamepsychosis
No, not unless you say you're about to kill yourself.

~~~
xenophanes
So you're replying to the first question and you mean "yes" but say "no"?

~~~
seb_z_lite
that's normally what happens if you tell them you feel suicidal(by them I mean
nurses,social workers..). They'll call the cops. You'll get to your place and
the cops will be there asking you if you're ok. It's sucks when it happens and
you already don't like the cops. It doesn't help.

------
HotKFreshSwag
If you're one of the 95% of humans who live outside the US and Canada and you
want to talk here is a list of numbers to call:
<http://www.suicide.org/international-suicide-hotlines.html>

~~~
raganwald
May I quote you?

~~~
HotKFreshSwag
If you google it you'll find some more lists I'm not sure if the one I linked
is the most comprehensive one.

------
vigilanteweb
Suicide and mental illness need to been seen as conditions for which people
need care and support rather than marginalization. Thank you for posting this.

------
mynameishere
The Christmas/suicide link is a myth you know.

~~~
raganwald
Yes it is:

<http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/suicide.asp>

Snopes suggest it falls slightly over the holiday from 34 per million people
to 30 per million people and then rises to 41 per million people at New
Year’s.

~~~
dextorious
It might be a myth, but but snopes' 2 obscure references to some "studies"
that cover a tiny region of the world are hardly compelling evidence.

I want more proof either for or against this notion.

Snopes stories have the same problem that urban legends have: people are quick
to believe them without checking it more, and for the same reason, feeling
superior to those who don't know (the myth|the debunking).

~~~
stonemetal
Snopes tries to combat this by having fake stories as well. They are all
segregated into The Repository Of Lost Legends(TROLL) section of the website
though.

------
lupatus
I made the following comment on a previous thread about suicide and think it
also applies to this discussion:

Both depression/suicide and dietary habits run in families and reoccur over
multiple generations.

Low serum cholesterol has been shown to be a suicide risk factor. [1]

Get you cholesterol tested and try adding more good fats to your diet like
oily cold-water fish (think salmon and sardines), butter, eggs (including the
yolk!), and coconut milk/oil. You should aim for a low LDL and a high HDL
number.

[1] [http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-
psychiatry/...](http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-
psychiatry/201103/low-cholesterol-and-suicide)

------
danking00
What do you tell to someone who's decided that it's really quite pointless to
continue working and living because the inevitable fate of the Universe
coupled with the seeming inability to achieve sustained happiness?

To them living to make a difference is pointless because practically nothing
survives Solar death, and nothing survives a maximizing of Universal entropy.

To them living for themselves is pointless because nothing brings sustained
happiness. Solving problems, building things, etc. are just as much drugs as
heroin. Once you've solved the problem you start seeking a new one. You can't
be happy and satisfied with solving an important problem once.

~~~
nyellin
Death is just as pointless. Considering that you have all of eternity to be
dead, it seems like a mistake to cut your brief life short, in case something
changes in your perspective during the rest of it.

~~~
jodrellblank
You don't "be dead", its not an active state, an ongoing experience.

You imply that the person would miss out and regret it, but they woudn't be
missing out because they wouldn't _be_.

Suicidal people reading this and thinking I'm arguing in favour of it stop
right there - I'm on a phone and can't write a full nuanced answer. But I
think this is an important point which all the "permanent solution to a
temporary problem" people don't really consider, and should, to see why its an
inneffective exhirtation.

------
zerostar07
Suicide does not correlate with Christmas holiday, quite the opposite, since
suicide rate actually drops [1].

While depressed people have higher risk of suicide, it's generally believed
that most depression patients are more at risk when they are recovering from
it, as their motivation returns[2].

[1]
[http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1734474...](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17344747)

[2]
[http://ps.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?Volume=60&pa...](http://ps.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?Volume=60&page=384&journalID=18)

------
angelortega
I though it was somebody giving advices on how to commit suicide successfully,
an article I have needed sometimes but I keep missing (by successfully I mean
without risk of ending fatally wounded but still alive, which will make your
situation even worse). But it's yet another article trying to take the idea
from your head with a list of phone numbers to call.

I think western civilization still have a rather wrong approach to the issue
of somebody wanting to end his/her life voluntarily. I've felt in this
situation many times (now I do, for example). I don't want advices about how
beautiful life is, or why I need to change my mind, or how many people are
there that loves me and that will suffer my loss. I know that. I know people
will suffer, at least initially. But poeple like me, people who have no energy
nor desire to go on living, are nothing but a burden to those sharing their
life with. Yes, I'm depressed. Yes, I'm under medical treatment. Yes, my
doctor have tried on me several different drugs and nothing have changed. I
feel myself a failure and I don't think there is any chemical compound that
will reprogram my brain to avoid feeling like that.

I just want to be able to exercise my free will of not going on with my life,
without drama nor fanfare. But this is, for some reason, a society taboo.

I wasn't sure to share this with you (I'm sure very few people will understand
my point of view).

------
paraschopra
Suicide is an interesting phenomenon with multiple causes, some short-sighted
(rejection from lover), some circumstantial (not being able to pay debt) and
some misguided (not getting admission in a good college). But what sounds to
me the most _genuine_ reason for suicide is someone who has contemplated
meaning of life for long and hasn't been able to find any inherent reason why
he should exist. That person may have friends, financially secure and may love
having fun. But internally he may slowly realize the fact that his existence
in this world is pointless. How do you call such suicide attempt as stupid?
The person has clearly thought through it and decided not to exist.

This doesn't mean I personally endorse suicide. I am a big believer in
Absurdism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism> and think the whole point
of life is to live in face of absurdity. The realization that you have to live
(and it's OK even if you die because existence is pointless after all) gives
you incredible power. You are no longer afraid of doing things like quitting
your job, talking to girls in a bar, going sky diving and trying drugs. After
all, no matter what happens, you have nothing to loose. We all are going to
die one day, so why not die _after_ doing whatever your heart desires.

~~~
justaname
sounds like a plan

------
narag
A couple of weeks ago, I saw a reference to a meetup that points to a mail
list:

    
    
       https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
    

Unfortunately there is no direct link to the message, but here is the pasted
header, if someone is interested in looking for it in the archive:

Forwarded message

From: Mitch Altman Date: Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 12:59 PM Subject: [Noisebridge-
discuss] Geeks & Depression meetup To: NoiseBridge Discuss

~~~
sp332
The archives are "private" (not sure how private, but I didn't feel like
signing up), but I found copy here:
[http://strangersinthebedroom.blogspot.com/2011/11/you-are-
no...](http://strangersinthebedroom.blogspot.com/2011/11/you-are-not-
alone.html)

Full text:

    
    
      From: Mitch Altman
      Date: Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 12:59 PM
      Subject: [Noisebridge-discuss] Geeks & Depression meetup
      To: NoiseBridge Discuss
    
      Geeks & Depression meetup
      Tuesday, 6-December, 7:30pm
      No Starch Press, 38 Ringold Street, San Francisco, CA 
      94103
      (near Civic Center BART Station)
    
      Let's have a meetup where geeks can talk about depression 
      and suicide. You are not alone. Share your story, if you 
      like. Share a friend's story. Or just hang out and 
      listen. Let's make it OK to talk about these things so 
      that we don't feel so alone with our feelings of being 
      alone and depressed or suicidal.
    
      This is not a support group -- none of us are trained 
      professionals, but we can get together in a safe, 
      confidential space to talk about depression and suicide 
      -- an important part of life for so many of us geeks.
      
      Mitch.
    

So it's already happened I guess. Anyone know how it went?

~~~
c3o
There is a second meetup tomorrow, as far as I can tell:
<https://www.facebook.com/maltman23/posts/10150415871850918>

Mitch's Google Group for the meetups is here:
<http://groups.google.com/group/geeksanddepression>

------
coolestuk
I hope I can give people some context. I have never thought I would feel so
down that I would consider ending my life. I don't mind poverty, I'm very
flexible in relationships, lots of things in my life have not turned out the
way I hoped. And of course, there are lots of things I never expected that
have enriched my life (one of those things is programming).

But for the past 10 years I've been in pain every day. Even that is bearable
(though most painkillers have no effect on my pain). The thing that has got me
down though, is the pain that comes all through the night. Not being able to
sleep night after night and the exhaustion that comes from it is the most
depressing thing in my life.

Even then, I know things could be worse. I could be disfigured. I could have
lost my sight.

Of course, those rationalisations are of little comfort when I'm being woken
up for the 20th time, and bed feels like an implement of torture.

Most things in life are "fixable" if one changes one's attitudes and
behaviour. But uncontrollable pain is depressing.

~~~
nyellin
I don't know what constant pain is like, or if I would have the strength to
hold out like you. If you ever want someone to talk to, you can email me at
aantny@gmail.com. I would love to hear your story.

------
phzbOx
If you want to talk in private about things, email me. phzbox at gmail.com. I
know life is not supposed to be easy, but sometime it helps to be listened to.

------
beaker52
I just want to say that 4 months after a break down in my marriage and with
little experience of real life outside of that marriage, the approach to this
holiday season, for whatever reason has been quite difficult. I was really
considering not making it into 2012.

I have since taken control of my thoughts and am feeling much better about
things. The main realisation came from realising that now, the present, is the
most important thing, not the past, nor the future.

Don't wanna sound all preachy but this book (I'm listening to it in audio
form) really helped me:
[http://www.audible.co.uk/pd/ref=sr_1_1?asin=B004EX04PK&q...](http://www.audible.co.uk/pd/ref=sr_1_1?asin=B004EX04PK&qid=1323854123&sr=1-1)

------
mrb
This reminds me of <http://www.google.com/search?q=+commit+suicide> which
returns a help message (generally a phone number to a suicide prevention
service in your country).

~~~
zalew
for me it doesn't <http://i.imgur.com/1d8pK.png>

~~~
chc
It gives me a US toll-free number. They probably only show it to people for
whom it probably wouldn't be an international call, so if you're outside the
US or using a proxy, that would explain it.

------
zeratul
Let's not forget about the civic duty to call 911 if you suspect that your
friend or your neighbor is suicidal. Emergency medicine has experts that can
help much more than National Suicide Prevention Lifeline.

~~~
hackinthebochs
This is the problem with how we deal with suicide. People seem to think its
their "duty" to take the right to end your life away from you. Police and
emergency services will go as far as tie you up and lock you in a padded cell
to take this right away.

What we need to is make it clear that suicide is your right. Treatment should
be completely voluntary at all times. I would wager that the possibility of
being restrained for days or weeks prevents many people from seeking help that
could actually have made a difference.

No, it isn't your civic duty to take the right to suicide away from someone.
It's your duty as a friend and a human being to be a non-judgmental ear and
shoulder. But in the end you have to respect their rights as an autonomous
being.

~~~
zeratul
That might be true for some people but not everyone. Do you take into account
situation where someone can get treatment and change ones mind? Since you, a
non-medical professional, cannot make that judgment it's better to use as a
rule to always call.

Emergency visits are not about locking someone away but about figuring out a
best treatment. Whether a person will follow the treatment or not that's a
different story but at least someone was there for them, to listen, to help,
and with means and experience to do it.

------
gregfjohnson
Here is a thought that has helped me get through episodes: I would rather
suffer this pain (which is probably not permanent, even though it feels like
it is) than inflict on others the lifelong burden of a father, or friend, or
companion, or spouse who committed suicide. This one thought has gotten me
through a number of episodes. Nowadays I'm doing better, with a combination of
therapy, Prozac-family meds, and meditation. Episodes do still roll around at
times, but they are much shorter in duration (order day instead of order
weeks/months).

------
fallous
Having spent quality time in the hospital for a suicide attempt, I really do
embrace the idea that "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem"
except when it is not. Prolonged and painful cancer, Alzheimers, etc all make
perfect sense to me as a suicide solution because there is no "future" that
improves the situation.

Depression is defeatable on the other hand and sometimes you just have to
grind through and get to the other side. I tried the suicide route due to it
and I won't ever opt for it on a temporary situation again.

~~~
TobiHeidi
For the very most people Depression is not defeatable. It can be surpressed
for some time or some symptoms, but one rarely can be "healed" from it.

------
damncabbage

      Simply call 1-800-273-TALK (8255) or in
      Canada 1-800-448-1833
    

Or 13 11 14 in Australia (Lifeline, <http://www.lifeline.org.au>).

~~~
dho
Or 143 in Switzerland (<http://www.143.ch>)

------
raganwald
It wasn’t really right to put this in the post, but:

<http://samroweis1972-2010.blogspot.com/>

I miss you, Sam.

~~~
theorique
I know him from high school. A great talent and a really nice guy, lost far
too young.

------
lisper
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3292885>

------
jeffrese
Ben Huh, Cheezburger Network founder, wrote a great post on how he
contemplated suicide after the failure of a startup:
[http://www.benhuh.com/2011/11/29/when-death-feels-like-a-
goo...](http://www.benhuh.com/2011/11/29/when-death-feels-like-a-good-option/)

------
zackzackzack
If you want somebody to talk to this holiday season, about anything at all, I
extend an invitation to talk over Skype. Although I can't say for sure yet,
but you are probably a really cool person if you are reading hacker news. If
you find the time, I would really appreciate it if you reached out. I have
nothing but time on my hands this winter break and I'd really like to avoid
just mindlessly surfing the internet or coding all day long. Just send me an
email at "moc.liramyrahcaz@kcaz".reverse().

Semi-repeat of this post: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3349993>

------
rcfox
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but if you're feeling alone, why not
come hang out on IRC? It's been a source of camaraderie for me for years.

------
jeffrese
Ben Huh, Cheezburger Network founder, wrote a great post on how he
contemplated suicide after the failure of a startup:
[http://www.benhuh.com/2011/11/29/when-death-feels-like-a-
goo...](http://www.benhuh.com/2011/11/29/when-death-feels-like-a-good-option/)
"It wasn’t until after I seriously contemplated suicide that I was ready to
handle a $30 million check. "

------
AndyJPartridge
To chat things through, in the United Kingdom, call 08457 90 90 90.

This is the www.samaritans.org number, a trusted and respected resource.

~~~
sambeau
Bear in mind that the Samaritans do not see it as their place to stop you
committing suicide, rather they exist in part to be there at that time so you
don't die alone.

------
raganwald
One day later:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3352336>

------
mio11
I found hope and sense of life when I began to understand who Jesus is. When I
am in depression I pray to him and this helps me. Wondered why noone was
talking about that. This is what Christmas is all about, Christ brining us
hope.

------
gtani
NY Times re:Caltrain, really really sad story.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/us/engineers-face-
horrible...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/us/engineers-face-horrible-
memories-from-deaths-on-the-tracks.html)

------
javadyan
I have a nice alternative to suicide. Since you hate your life so much that
you want to end it, why not just say "fuck it all" and go start a new life
from scratch by having some crazy (and possibly dangerous) adventure?

------
spektom
In my childhood I was told a "tale of two frogs" <http://bquot.com/8jl> This
is really helpful for understanding why you should never give up!

------
bane
Several related threads from this discussion a couple weeks back

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3284169>

------
twodayslate
A kid I knew in High School just killed himself the other day. No one knows
why. It was rather a shock to everyone.

------
DanielGeisler
I have profound problems with the standard yada yada about suicide. Yes I
believe that life is precious and in my teens I spent a number of years as a
volunteer working the phones in crisis centers, so I do know the whole rap.
But if life is truly precious our society should treat it as being precious
with deeds as well as cheap talk. Society has gutted the mental health system,
here in Santa Rosa, CA the two existing mental hospitals have been closed in
the last few years. The mental health system is now configured to only act
only at the final moment of extremity when people are ready to commit suicide
and then with only the mathematically minimal amount of intervention possible.
To me and many other people it seems that the science is very clear and that
issues like mental health and education can’t be dealt with without dealing
with the intertwined socioeconomic issues.

I have a diagnosis of Asperger’s, depression and anxiety. In the Nineties is
was a successful software consultant and then the dot com crash happened. I
went from being able to get a job anything in a week or two to being unable to
obtain a single response to the resumes I would spend out over the course of a
year. Five years ago I was given an SSRI for the first time in my life and I
had a horrible reaction that almost killed me and the resulted with leaving me
with a very serious problem with sensory overload. A few years ago I spoke to
the head of HR at O’Reilly who asked me why didn’t I just move down to Silicon
Valley where I could make six figures. I didn’t tell the gentleman that I had
a serious problem with sensory overload and that I had a hard time seeing how
I could function in a crowded urban environment and that living in the semi-
rural environment of Sonoma county at least provided me with a quiet place
that I could marginally function in.

Now I am having a profound problem with sensory overload that has literally
trapped me in my apartment. Loud sounds and large array of other types of
sound literally cause me pain. But the experience is actually far worse than
pain, because I have a high pain tolerance, but an occurrence of a sensory
meltdown can strip me of my very sentience. Because I am now poor I have been
absolutely unable to engage in any medical or psychiatric intervention. I have
tried to connect with services through ever possible channel I can think of,
but to no good. Society’s reaction has been to say, let us know when you are
planning to kill yourself, because that is the one thing that we will react
to. Several years ago when I first tried to get help for my sensory overload,
I realized that few doctors had any idea of what sensory overload was, and
none of them had any idea of how to intervene in it. So their answer was to
play hot potato with me. One doctor I saw kept redirecting the conversation
from sensory overload to asking me if I might be suicidal. When I answered I
wasn’t he just kept digging deeper asking me if I wasn’t sure that I was
having a problem with suicidal ideation. He was desperate to relabel my
problem with sensory overload as a problem with being suicidal because he did
know how to deal with that. Dealing with a number of incidents like this over
time can make in sick at heart. And mental hospitals are absolutely not the
solution. When you can barely tolerate any sound whatsoever the answer is not
to lock you up in a noisy environment that you can’t escape from.

So I have begun a hunger strike as a political protest for the lack of
necessary services for myself and others. I at least have the intellect to
enunciate the problems with the system as so I feel the importance of
escalating this to the level of a political protest for others as well as
myself. I have started a blog at <http://dannyslittlerevolution.blogspot.com/>
detailing my issues and concerns, but so far I have received zero feedback. I
am now in my fifth day of my hunger strike. So my final comment is to suggest
to people that bland statements about life being precious and that people
shouldn’t commit suicide because things will get better are absolutely
meaningless drivel meant to assuage the conscious of the speaker unless
society acts to truly treat life as precious. I get that many in society holds
life to be precious for unborn fetuses and for people about to commit suicide.
But if life is truly precious it should be treated as being precious during
the period of time between conception and death or else talk of the
preciousness of life is an absolute sham. My training and gift is in
understanding how complex systems work and any system to refuses to deal with
the underlying socioeconomic problems is just pissing in the wind. Peace.

~~~
partition
Very well said. I agree, it seems that in this society mental illness,
depression and suicidality are more used as a label to further ostracize those
in distress instead of as a signal to actually take steps to help them while
they can still be helped.

------
jhuni
If anything would make me want to suicide its listening to other peoples
suicide tales. I don't know how they do it.

------
NIL8
Thanks.

------
tete
(edit: Sorry, this is pretty random. I still wanted to share my view.)

For me it looks like pretty much everyone was suicidal in the
youth/adolescence. It may be a horrible coincidence, but really I have never
ever known a person that didn't feel suicidal at least once. No, I am not
talking about the "Oh god, I love someone, I want to die sort." I knew people
who killed themselves, so I guess I am pretty good at knowing the difference.

Don't know why but these folks often talk to me. Maybe it's because I don't
get too emotional about it and they know I won't tell anybody. I believe in
the right of suicide, even for mentally ill persons. I mean if it's
chronically then it doesn't make sense. It's probably a lot harder then
another kind of illness. Something I never understood was the "(s)he is going
to die anyway" argument. Everybody is going to die in the end. You also don't
know about the when or how. Of course it can be more likely to be sooner and
agonizing, but you can't know for sure.

On the other hand I consider it to be a stupid idea to ask some kind of doctor
about it. A doctor, in my opinion should be someone who keeps people alive and
not someone who decides about whether someone dies. I consider this to be a
major problem. And when you ask about the "quality of life" I think nobody
else should answer that question. If I am not feeling good it doesn't when a
doctor or whoever says something different.

Still, if anyone out there feels suicidal then get help. There are a lot of
people who are _glad_ to help and won't treat you in a generic way. I talked
to a lot of person and never thought about something like "what's the best way
to convince someone to stay alive". Also, yeah there are _many_ stupid
psychologists - and I mean it like that. They often see stuff that I consider
to be a serious hallucination. I know about psychologists who think everyone
looking outward of a window wants to jump down. A schoolmate and back then
good friend of mine had been sent to a psychologist for no reason at all
(well, he had very, very strange parents) and was considered to be mentally
ill, because he didn't know what he should talk about with the psychologist. I
know about tons of these cases, like people who are mentally ill, because they
washed their stuff when it was dirty.

I think this is a big problem. Suicidal people always think that people who
could help suck, because some psychologists see psychotic people everywhere.
Well, maybe it is like that. As I wrote everyone I ever knew (of course I am
talking about people I knew pretty well) were suicidal at some point. Still I
think a lot of mental illnesses should be considered character traits. For
example there was a time when everything but straight sexuality was considered
a mental illness, even sex toys and various other things. Also a lot of
artists and philosopher can possibly be considered to be insane.

My personal opinion is that people who are suicidal usually have a problem to
accept who they. In some situations it is more like accepting the
circumstances. Even if they suck right now or are hurtful this doesn't mean
that it will remain like that. It can take years until one feels better again,
but it usually is worth waiting and accepting that can make you feel way
better. Just don't take everything too serious and think positive. Mind >
Matter ;)

------
billpatrianakos
I'm thankful someone wrote this. I've been seeing a lot of people talking
about how depressed and/or suicidal and inadequate they feel quite frequently
around here lately. Hell, even I've done some of that talking as I've been
there recently too.

The part at the end where he says they will listen is huge. Never
underestimate how much someone simply listening can really help. Also, talking
to a sympathetic stranger is often more helpful or even easier than talking to
someone you know.

I always wondered why so many people around here get to feeling this way and
I've narrowed it down to a few things. First, startups are hard, they're often
lonely, and burnout can creep up on you without you noticing. Burnout can
really make you feel worthless. Then there are those who feel inadequate
because they're reading all these stories about successful and smart people
solving hard problems and making it big while they feel small, stupid, and
inconsequential. There's a strong success bias in the submissions here and
other places people like us peruse which can lead to strong feelings of
worthlessness and self doubt.

I've been there and I understand so well all of these things. I often wish I
had a clone that just repeated what I tell myself whenever my negative voice
starts nagging: Baby steps, you can't know it all or be it all and you
certainly can't conquer the world in a week. No matter what anyone else is
saying or doing out there, in the end we're all human, we're all going through
the same things and we all feel the same way at one point or another. It gets
better.

Thanks for writing this and extra thanks for including those toll free lines.

~~~
interlagos
_I'm thankful someone wrote this. I've been seeing a lot of people talking
about how depressed and/or suicidal and inadequate they feel quite frequently
around here lately._

Suicide is a topic that people sometimes "take on" in a hamfisted attempt at
some cheap feel-goodism, and the results are almost always counter-productive.

You can't rationalize away suicide via a blog post. More likely it will
actually bring to mind something that might not have been front and center.

Forgotten that you're suicidal? Well raganwald is here to remind you.

I may come off as a giant ass downer saying this, but it's the cold hard
truth. This does the opposite of good.

~~~
raganwald
Debate about the benefits and hazards of posts like this is healthy. I'm
choosing to leave it up, but I'm grateful that you are speaking up.

------
maeon3
Ive associated suicide as correlated with too much logic. It takes a litle bit
of delusion deep in the core of your being to assign value, meaning and
purpose to the process of moving molecules from a high energy state to lower
energy states. Which is all we are doing. Convincing a logical person that
delusion is needed is a tough sell. Ive had the experience of trying to talk
some normality into a suicidal person. Its like two kids on a carnival ride
and one is queasy and hates it and wants to get off. Every turn and moment is
filled with a desire to get off. what does the kid having fun on the ride say
to the one who wants off? It comes down to "stop feeling the way you do". the
misrable one has to figure out the source of the pain and hijack a feedback
loop happening in the subconscious mind.

~~~
khafra
If you're saying logical thinking causes depression, you have the causation
backward:
[http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=depressions...](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=depressions-
evolutionary)

For the record, logical, analytic, probabilistically correct thinking is only
a way of reaching goals. The goals themselves cannot be established by means
of logic, only deconflicted/clarified/etc. To think otherwise is illogical.

~~~
_delirium
On the latter point, that's a pretty major dispute in philosophy and
mathematics. The axiomatic Hilbert-style approach probably has the upper hand
in mathematics, but a Russell-style logicist approach that sees foundations
themselves as subject to rational analysis is still a major position, and
among philosophers, the idea that axioms are arbitrary and rationality only
applies past that is probably the minority view (though existentialists hold a
view somewhat like that). Not that that's necessarily practical advice.

------
georgieporgie
A random moment of anger/hilarity during a bad bout of depression a few years
ago: I tried calling around to a few psychiatrists in the area to get an
appointment for depression. After waiting several days without hearing
anything, I called one again. "Hello?" "Uh, yeah, I called and left a message
a few days ago about seeing someone about depression." "Oh. We aren't
accepting new patients." "Um. Okay, can you recommend anyone who is?" She
sounded shocked that anyone would ever ask such a question, "no."

So, it has been my experience that mental health care could care less about
you unless they're already cashing your checks.

Anyway, on the subject of suicide, you only get one go around on this ride. If
you're seriously contemplating suicide, go see your regular doctor about it.
There are great drugs out there. Yes, they can have side effects, but let's be
rational here: a lack of boners, for example, is well worth it to find value
in life again. If you kill yourself, everyone in your family will be
devastated, your friends will miss you more than you think, and, to be
perfectly honest, you still owe society for educating you and putting up with
the ridiculous stuff you did as a teenager. ;-)

------
showdog
Wonderful post. Thank you.

One thing I'd like to add. A realization I've made only a few days ago:

The is no shame in being poor. Don't feel embarrassed if you don't have good
food to eat, or a nice place to live, or have to work long hours to make ends
meet. You are as good as anyone else. Your life is beautiful too.

------
dextorious
I was feeling disconnected from everyone else, and then it dawned on me: well,
duh!

So, I closed HN and went to talk to ACTUAL physically present people.

------
darasen
But, I thought it was the "Most wonderful time of the year"!

~~~
darasen
Please note my comment was not meant to be blasé but rather my, admittedly,
cynical view of the Christmas season.

Telling the clinically depressed (including self) that everything is wonderful
and indicating they should feel the same is a bit like telling a man in a
wheel chair he should go jogging. I get this a lot.

------
vonskippy
Suicide gets a bad rap.

With 7 billion plus people on a planet that can't support half that number why
are we encouraging these sad sacks to stay alive?

Unique? Really, out of 7 billion plus people is anyone really all that
special? If you're not enjoying the ride - get off now - and let people who
are have a bit more space (and resources).

Suicide might be the only memorable thing you do in your sorry existence, so
don't be so quick to discount it.

Who knows what's on the other side. If this life isn't satisfying you enough,
take another spin on the wheel of life, who's to say what the next adventure
will bring.

But what about the kids, spouse, family, friends you ask? Well obviously you
don't care - or you wouldn't be contemplating suicide.

Humans are the only species that understands death, but doesn't understand how
to deal with it. Who's to say when it's time to go? Who's to say it's wrong to
plan that time instead of letting fate decide?

I was always told if you don't like the party, leave. Seems like good advice
for life as well.

~~~
cicero
This remark is consistent with an atheistic view of reality. Although atheists
can be compassionate to someone hurting enough to want to kill themselves,
ultimately what does it matter?

On the other hand, if there is more to human life than a collection of atoms
that happens to be organized in an interesting way and human life is sacred,
as Christianity teaches, then suicide is a tragedy of the highest degree. No
human is a waste of space, and every life should be protected to the extent
possible through our finite means. I commend raganwald for making this post. I
just wanted to point out that vonskimppy's comment illustrates implications of
certain worldviews

~~~
einhverfr
I am a heathen, and not an atheist (I am not the GP poster either).

I don't see suicide as a tragedy nor do I see life in itself to be sacred in
the way Christianity teaches it is sacred. For this reason I am pro choice but
don't even try to differentiate between abortion and infanticide--- personhood
is a social concept and where we draw lines is arbitrary. Just because we draw
the line before birth somewhere and the Vikings drew it a few days after birth
doesn't make one more right than the other.

I don't particularly frown on suicide (note, I am not untouched by this,
having lost two friends to suicide both which were suffering from mental
illness). However, I think that if one is competent to decide, that's the key
thing. It;s tragic when we sent people off to war and then don't give them the
treatment they need when they come back so they kill themselves. It is tragic
when people find themselves rejected by long-time friends in their hours of
need and slit their wrists in hotel rooms. I am not saying these are good
choices.

But having known people who made these choices badly does not give me a right
to discount it in other circumstances.

