
Debunking Dvorak vs QWERTY myths - gnosis
http://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors/1
======
jmillikin
Previous discussions can be found at:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=438124>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1062284>

The QWERTY vs Dvorak argument is silly; both were designed at a time before
any research had been performed into typing ergonomics, and the only reason to
pick one or the other is largely based on hearsay and rumor.

If you'd like an ergonomic keyboard layout, try one designed to be efficient
for common use cases, such as:

Colemak < <http://colemak.com/> >: More efficient than QWERT and Dvorak, while
preserving common QWERTY-based keyboard shortcuts.

QGMLWB < <http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization> >: Highly
efficient, at the cost of sacrificing keyboard shortcut muscle memory.

Or, design your own with carpalx: <http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/>

~~~
sjs
> The QWERTY vs Dvorak argument is silly; both were designed at a time before
> any research had been performed into typing ergonomics, and the only reason
> to pick one or the other is largely based on hearsay and rumor.

I grew up using my own odd way of typing with several of my fingers, but
didn't type by touch. When I started studying comp sci I decided to finally
learn to type properly. After a year or so of typing qwerty I had pain in my
wrists and fingers.

Obviously I couldn't afford any injuries before my career even started, so I
read up on dvorak and the decided the reasoning behind it was sound. I
switched and it was one or two weeks before I could type very well at all, and
a month before I was what I call proficient. Since then no more pain.

So whether my fingers actually travel less or not, I don't really care.
Something about it is better ergonomically, for me. It's been 5-6 years since
then without any pain or discomfort (apart from 20+ hour sessions, and I
deserved exactly what I got, that's just dumb).

AFAIK Dvorak wrote studies on this for some US gov't body, around WW1 or WW2
iirc. I haven't looked for them but to call his research hearsay and rumour is
not very fair. You need to back that up.

~~~
mnemonicsloth
> You need to back that up.

Besides presenting us with an unfalsifiable anecdote, you obviously haven't
read the article. It's _about_ backing that claim up:

 _"Fast forward now to 1936, when August Dvorak ... patented the Dvorak
Simplified Keyboard...

The standard telling of [the Navy Study] story turns out to be false in almost
every important respect....

[Dvorak et al] compared students of different ages and abilities (for example,
students learning Dvorak in grades 7 and 8 at the University of Chicago Lab
School were compared with students learning QWERTY in conventional high
schools)...

Even in their studies, however, the evidence is mixed as to whether students
learning Dvorak retain an advantage, since the differences seemed to diminish
as training progressed."_

~~~
gjm11
No, the article is addressing a different claim about Dvorak from the one sjs
made. (Article: Can one type faster on a Dvorak than a QWERTY keyboard? sjs:
Is typing on a Dvorak keyboard easier on the wrists and fingers than typing on
a QWERTY keyboard?)

For what it's worth, I've heard a lot of anecdotal claims that Dvorak is
better in terms of pain, and scarcely anyone claiming it's better for speed.
This might, of course, be because the main thing that makes someone switch
from QWERTY to Dvorak is that they've started having pain and are searching
for something that might stop it.

------
kschua
I have converted to the Dvorak in Aug 09, to see if the Dvorak suits me. I
averaged about 70 words per minute on QWERTY and got back to this speed in
Dvorak after about 4 months. I don't buy the claim that a person can switch to
the Dvorak in 25 days. Took me almost that long just to be able to type with
the Dvorak without looking at the keyboard. The DVAssist program for Windows
was very helpful in the transition stage.

Wikipedia claims the fastest typist in the world uses a Dvorak.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard> so you draw your own
conclusions about speed from this

I am sticking to the Dvorak because I don't feel as much strain on my wrist as
compared to using a QWERTY. I have had a pain in my right wrist which hasn't
occurred since I started the Dvorak. (Note: It could also be due to the
slowdown in speed during the transition process).If I get an increase in speed
it is a bonus.

A small bonus on using the Dvorak is that I don't need to bother about people
looking at my keyboard when I am typing my password.

Cons: 1) Pair programming is a pain if the other guy doesn't use Dvorak.
Having to switch keyboard layouts often isn't fun, unless of course your
workplace allows you to install DVAssist 2) When using outside terminals, such
as Internet cafe, it is highly unlikely you are going to be able to switch
keyboard layout. 3) On a Mac, the shortcuts still follow the QWERTY keyboard,
so the Apple-C key is really an Apple J key.

Signed A QWERTY keyboard typist for 25 years

~~~
snth
I've been using a Dvorak layout for about 7 years now. I converted for
efficiency; at that time I had no wrist or hand problems. Within the last
couple years, intense typing sessions have give me lasting pain in my hands
(mostly emanating from my pinky fingers). The Dvorak layout actually seems to
be worse in this regard (pinky strain) than Qwerty, so I've switched to using
a Kinesis keyboard, which has helped somewhat. Though nothing seems to help
like backing off of typing for a while, and avoiding long laptop typing
sessions.

~~~
garnet7
Looks like the carpalx software (mentioned above) can be tuned to find you a
layout that doesn't work the pinkies so much.

------
richardw
The article is mostly about speed, not efficiency. If you care about speed
only, then many will argue it's a toss-up. If you care about efficiency over
your typing lifetime, then I'd strongly suggest Dvorak has a big advantage.

Small slightly loaded example. Try it yourself on any body of text: I just
typed your title on Dvorak and QWERTY layouts. The top line are the keys that
are on the home row of each, so fingers don't have to move to type them. The
second are those you have to move for. Ignores shift.

"debunking dvorak vs qwerty myths at reason.com"

Dvorak: (home row first)

deunindoasetthsateasono

bkgvrkvqwrymyr.cm

So in this contrived example, the home row has slightly more letters on it
than other rows.

QWERTY: (home row first)

dkdakshsaas

ebuninvorvmyttreon.com

Here, the home row has far fewer of the letters required, so _most_ of the
time you have to move your fingers. Oh, _and_ I removed QWERTY because it was
just unfair. Even if you remove the 'reason.com', Dvorak is more efficient. So
try it yourself for a few sentences. I suggest you'll find Dvorak has far less
finger movement in most cases. Maybe someone will code up a test, scanning HN
for home row keys :)

Is it for everyone? No. Like Sarah Palin, everyone has a different opinion. If
you're happy with QWERTY, use it - there are generally far better things to
learn about. Out of 4 friends who tried Dvorak, two of us kept it. I use
Programmer Dvorak because it makes coding nicer, but that's even more hassle.

------
dylanz
I had bad RSI, then took a couple weeks, and switched to Dvorak (it took a bit
longer to get proficient in Vim again though). Anyhow, RSI problems were gone,
and never returned.

So, regardless of any debunking myths, it prevented my pain from ever coming
back again.

~~~
gnosis
Or maybe the pain went away for some reason unrelated to Dvorak, and would
have gone away on its own even if you hadn't switched.

~~~
nostrademons
It seems unlikely given how many people report that same benefit. On this
thread alone, there are 4 people that report it's much easier on the wrists
(to which I'll add myself - I'm a Dvorak user and found it physically much
easier to type on than Qwerty) and 1 person that reports it's worse.

~~~
jauco
Ouch, I don't know the english word for it, but you're making a severe error
by assuming that pro's and cons are as likely to report here. If you really
want to know whether it's coincidental or not you'd have to phone people
chosen at random from the total population (just humans, just americans or
just american programmers for example)

~~~
nostrademons
"Selection bias" is the term you're looking for. ;-)

And yes, I know I'm making it, and choosing to make it anyway. Mostly because
it squares with my own experience (there's a term for that too: "anecdotal
evidence"), and because we don't have any evidence the _other_ way.

~~~
mnemonicsloth
_it squares with my own experience_

The placebo effect can make _cancer_ go away for a while. Vanishing RSI is
trivial.

You're especially at risk because you've already sunk time and effort into
retraining yourself, and have made a conscious decision to separate yourself
from everybody else. That's Big Magic, psychosomatically speaking.

None of this means you have to go back to QWERTY (or for that matter, that
QWERTY is any less broken). But if Dvorak's research really was shoddy and
self-serving, and you want to take care of the hands you presumably use to
earn a living, wouldn't it be a good idea at this point to look into other
keyboard layouts with better-documented benefits?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment>

<http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html>

~~~
richardw
I'd really like to find some research on people that were proficient with
Dvorak first and then were asked to learn QWERTY. I suspect the take-up (even
for those desperately wanting to be different) would be lower! There's quite a
cost to re-learning how to type, so let's not discount that some people
_still_ think it's worth it.

Personally, I did it because a couple of my mates were still happy with it
after a year and it started making sense on day 1, before any Big Magic kicked
in :)

------
bediger
I would like Liebowitz and Margolis work more if they'd actually done any
research. If you bother to go find the original _Journal of Law and Economics_
paper, you will see that the paper consists only of hand-waving criticism, and
has no original research. I suppose a paper of this form has a place, but
you'd think that in the intervening 20 years, someone, someonwhere would try
to confirm or deny.

But that hasn't happened, as far as I know.

------
Luyt
This is a funny webzine I found about Dvorak:
<http://DVzine.org/zine/01-toc.html>

