
U.S. Firms Are Helping Build China’s Orwellian State - malloryerik
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/19/962492-orwell-china-socialcredit-surveillance/
======
nilskidoo
The trio of global trade treaties, TISA, TTIP and TPP had small writing
permitting larger corporations to ignore or even rewrite international laws
should said laws promote regulations. They also had a clause, as Assange
himself wrote about, where if a government was doing something which one of
these corporations could profit from, then the government was no longer
permitted to pursue, lest they be sanctioned and embargoed by every other
participating nation-state. I've been saying all along, the deals are dead in
name only.

We've passed that sci-fi trope where corporations now wield more authority
than governments.

~~~
_bxg1
Whenever I see stuff like this, all I can do is choose to believe that
concentrated power will always eventually crumble under its own fragility.
That's how it's worked so far. AI may change that equation one day, but one
has to be able to sleep at night.

~~~
aaronbrethorst
You can also, y'know, vote.

~~~
evanlivingston
Meh, nah. You can vote to further validate the legitimacy of an existing power
structure. But voting, by itself, doesn't necessarily function as an act that
reorganizes power structures. As an obtuse example, does voting in Russia or
Venezuela help to reorganize power? At a certain point those that bestow the
gift of voting upon a population also have the ability to limit the actual
result of that vote.

~~~
solidasparagus
Yes, the 2018 election in Venezuela is a major reason that we are looking at a
potential transition of power... If no one ever voted, low voter turnout in
2018 would not have sparked an international backlash which has supported the
rise of the opposition.

~~~
rjf72
The one and only reason there is a backlash against Venezuela is because the
US is exerting its clout. And, in turn, the one and only reason the US cares
about Venezuela is because the Venezuelan government dropped the petrodollar
in late 2017 (I mention the date to emphasize this event predates the
election), swapping to the euro and yuan.

The petrodollar plays a major role in sustaining the US economy and
consequently moving away from it is a perceived as a direct attack on the US.
Other countries that have moved away from the petrodollar include Iraq, Libya,
and Iran. Notably - these countries all moved away _before_ being invaded (and
Iran has yet to be invaded). In other words, their moving away was not a
consequence of our invasions but rather our invasion was a consequence of
their dropping the dollar. Saudi Arabia is one of the most belligerent and
despotic nations on the planet, but since they keep to the petrodollar like
their life depends on it (which it does), we're best friends forever. They
even held the chair of the UN human rights council. Great guys, them.

There are sham elections, unrepresentative "regimes", and all other sorts of
nastiness all throughout the world. Nobody cares. Unless they happen to have
something somebody else wants, then it's time to go full-on won't anybody
think of the children?

~~~
xster
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/03/why-
us...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/03/why-us-
dcemonises-venezuelas-democracy)

Jimmy Carter: "As a matter of fact, of the 92 elections that we've monitored,
I would say that the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world."

Oh wait,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Venezuela](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Venezuela)
"The proven oil reserves in Venezuela are recognized as the largest in the
world, totaling 297 billion barrels (4.72×1010 m3) as of 1 January 2014.",
never mind, let's bomb them.

~~~
JetSpiegel
2012 elections are not what we are talking about here.

------
est
Let's not forget Cisco actually built the early generation of the Great
Firewall

[https://www.wired.com/2008/05/leaked-cisco-
do/](https://www.wired.com/2008/05/leaked-cisco-do/)

~~~
ironic_ali
No, let's not forget that.

However, where there's money (and China has a lot of it) most companies, tech
or not, are going to jump through hoops and sell their ethics & morals to get
it. "The shareholders demand profits!"

Personally I believe this 'age' will known as the psychopathic age in 100
years.

~~~
MisterTea
> Personally I believe this 'age' will known as the psychopathic age in 100
> years.

Ancient Rome dont count? It's the human condition. Nothing has changed.

------
ajuc
Not the first time. IBM helped with managing death and concentration camps.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust)

------
danschumann
Historically speaking, I would say this trend would end with their citizens
rebelling, but with robotics becoming more prominent, it's possible that
revolution becomes impossible. Techno-fascism is the most dangerous form.

~~~
908087
Corporate and government surveillance of every detail of our lives pretty much
guarantees any revolutionaries would be sniffed out and crushed long before
they ever had a chance to organize.

------
lgleason
...and these firms have begun to push those Orwellian values via their
culture, products etc.. Bonus points the US universities have also become
vectors of this with draconian speech codes etc..

~~~
spamizbad
Right on. I can't believe what they're trying to do to Joshua Clover of UC-
Davis. "PC gone mad" as they say.

~~~
will_pseudonym
"political correctness gone mad"

> What’s wrong with society today?

> People think that cops need to be reformed. They need to be killed.

[https://archives.sfweekly.com/exhibitionist/2015/09/17/the-w...](https://archives.sfweekly.com/exhibitionist/2015/09/17/the-
write-stuff-joshua-clover-on-wearing-intense-knowledge-lightly-and-changing-
quickly)

~~~
spamizbad
I don't agree with that statement but he's well within his rights to say them
and trying to get him fired over it is just wimpy snowflake behavior. Some guy
_really_ doesn't like police. Big deal. Until he actually tries to incite or
commit violence he's only guilty of having a bad opinion.

It's very sad how little regard Americans have for the First Amendment. Put
the pitchforks down and engage him with facts, logic and reason. Decency in
discourse is possible, but the way to get there isn't through making it
illegal to drink tea without your pinky raised.

------
superkuh
Not just China's. But as western nations (Germany re: tor, Aus/NZ re:
censorship) rush to implement their own orwellian state they tread China's
well worn path.

~~~
elken
Agreed. From their actions in the last couple of days it would appear these
governments can hardly take the moral high ground.

I'm sure I'll get downvoted for discounting China's concentration camps and
social credit programs but it would seem we aren't exactly the bastion of
freedom we like to portray.

~~~
freeflight
They never could, particularly not Germany or the UK.

But the US also isn't as innocent as many love to pretend when talking about
"state censorship", not even acknowledging how the US doesn't need to "state
censor" but merely applies soft-pressure to US companies to do the censoring
for them [0].

[0] [http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/the-
cleaners/](http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/the-cleaners/)

------
gabbygab
Aren't we helping britain, much of europe, australia, etc build orwellian
states too? What about our firms, government and military helping build an
orwellian state in saudi arabia and israel?

Everyday, all I see are articles about orwellian state in china. They've
always had an orwellian state so why the sudden focus? Shouldm't we be more
worried about the orwellian state that's slowly being created here at home or
amongst our allies?

------
tru3_power
All I can think is that we should tread cafefully. We’re at that point where
the misuse of AI can get real bad (even worse than what the article
describes). If nothing is done now one day we will look back and say “damn we
had a chance to stop this”.

------
torqueTorrent
It used to be that part of the unwritten contract of the 'Golden Rule' in our
culture was a recognition that adults have access to things that are dangerous
or that could deprive each other of life, liberty, property etc, and that
therefore these implements must be handled with care such that bad outcomes do
not occur for anyone.

The free market has seemingly granted a reprieve from such unwritten contracts
and any form of conscience and now allow all implements to be systematically
leveraged in the favor of investors seeking returns.

~~~
coldtea
> _It used to be that part of the unwritten contract of the 'Golden Rule' in
> our culture was a recognition that adults have access to things that are
> dangerous or that could deprive each other of life, liberty, property etc,
> and that therefore these implements must be handled with care such that bad
> outcomes do not occur for anyone._

When was that part of the US culture?

Not in the wild west, snakeoil salesmen, days, not in the robber baron days,
not when IBM and others helped Nazi Germany, not when powerful companies
toppled governments in "banana republics" in the later half of the 20th
century, not when guns were regularly sold with minimal regulation, so when?

~~~
salawat
Clearly it was for a not insignificant portion of the population given that
mostly of what you described are and have been historically considered
negative things. Prevailing morality of the time may have been X, but Y
happening that is not X does not disprove the statement.

Furthermore, if anything, your examples demonstrates that in a society that is
based on trust and good faith to moderate interpersonal activity, the Liar is
King.

Until we start making life exceedingly difficult to the Liar in proportion to
the damage they can cause, which I don't necessarily believe anyone has the
civic/political appetite for, we'll be stuck in this never-ending cycle of
problem creation/remediation ad nauseam to the exclusion of pretty much all
else.

It's a very mentally taxing train of thought to process through unfortunately.

------
mratzloff
This kind of thing has been going on for a long time. The sociopaths running
these projects have always cared solely about personal profit and power.

The company that became ExxonMobil supplied fuel for the Luftwaffe, while
Davis Oil and Texaco fueled U-boats.

Chase Bank funneled money for the Nazis.

ITT improved German telecommunications infrastructure (working closely with
the Gestapo) and built bombs.

Ford supplied tanks to the Nazis.

Hollywood changed content and even dropped films for the global market in
collaboration with Nazi censors.

The Associated Press hired actual Nazis and hid the worst elements of Nazi
Germany from the world so they could continue to operate there.

IBM's German subsidiary helped with the Holocaust, operating with the approval
of the New York office during wartime.

Plenty of other US companies collaborated as well, often with the tacit
approval of the government, which was given by sympathizers in positions of
power and extracted by extortion, since the US needed their help to win the
war.

US companies often had the same approach with the Soviet Union.

The thing is—it works. These companies get away with it again and again, and
then the people in charge, and later their children, use their ill-gotten
fortunes and influence to entrench themselves even more. It's literally Ned
Beatty's speech from the end of _Network_.

[http://www.ivanachubbuck.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/02/Netw...](http://www.ivanachubbuck.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/02/Network-Monologue-Ned-Beatty.pdf)

~~~
ativzzz
Is this actually the best self-serving way for America to play these games?
Sell your services and technology to your 'competitors' (authoritarian
governments), who will eventually collapse because they are so reliant on
America to maintain its authoritarianism.

In the end, America (or at least the people running these companies) come out
richer, and 'democracy' prevails.

~~~
oAlbe
Of course, I mean, those millions of people were going to die anyway, might as
well make a buck out of it, right?

------
dquarks
That scientists, doing basic research with partners overseas, are somehow
implicated in China's surveillance ploy is disheartening. With that being
said, an immediate solution is unclear to me. Certainly foreign scientists
shouldn't stop collaborating with Chinese scientists. And, frankly, I'm not
entirely certain whether Chinese scientists are wittingly cooperating with
their totalitarian government. If they are, then sigh. Yet, if they aren't,
then, well, sigh again.

------
alfiedotwtf
... and Australia will be America's testing ground for their own

------
wpdev_63
Well the amazon echo is being used in evidence in open court so I am not sure
if the chinese are so special[0].

[0]:[https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/prosecutors-get-
warran...](https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/prosecutors-get-warrant-
amazon-echo-data-arkansas-murder-case-n700776)

~~~
mlindner
Good reason why it's a good idea to use alternatives that don't upload/record
all voice data to the cloud.

------
angel_j
If you think China is your competitor, it makes economic and political sense
to help them do something stupid. Don't interrupt your enemy while they are
making a mistake, unless you can assist.

~~~
nilskidoo
On that note, this wasn't so long ago:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/28/business/ivanka-trump-
chi...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/28/business/ivanka-trump-china-
trademarks.html)

------
whatamidoingyo
Meanwhile U.S. consumers are helping build their own Orwellian state.

------
jeffreyrogers
What is the perception of this among the Chinese citizenry? Do they view this
surveillance positively, or do they see it negatively but feel powerless to do
anything about it?

------
josephv
Eastasia certainly wouldn't be the same without Eurasia and Oceana.

------
TheLuddite
These are public companies, therefore they have to drive up their stock price
by any means necessary.

------
tempodox
After they've built the Orwellian State in the U.S. it would be foolish not to
export and monetize their expertise.

------
thedudeabides5
"We connect the dots among politics, places, and people."

I feel like this is all my fault

