
An American served a year in prison for copyright conduct that is legal in EU - severine
https://blogs.harvard.edu/infolaw/2018/02/13/an-american-served-1-year-in-prison-for-conduct-that-is-100-legal-in-europe-but-its-not-drugs-its-copyright-heres-why-it-matters/
======
qwerty456127
Forbidding hardware/software owners from exploring and/or modifying the device
or the copy of a program they have legitimately bought whatever a way they
want and selling their legitimate property (even after they have modified it)
just ought to be banned completely IMHO.

~~~
Zanni
While I sympathize with your viewpoint--I hate artificial restrictions on my
own property--I think your statement is overly broad. There are a lot of
things that should not be modifiable by the end user. Car odometers, aircraft
transponders and the software in self-driving cars leap immediately to mind.
I'm sure there are more.

~~~
SomeHacker44
You can have laws that criminalize activities after modification without
criminalizing victimless modifications. Such as:

Illegal to sell a car with a modified odometer - but you can screw with yours
all you want. Wait, I think that is already illegal.

Illegal to fly an aircraft in the NAS with unauthorized modifications to the
transponder. Wait, that is already illegal. :)

~~~
ivanhoe
Exactly, it's already illegal to use any such modifications, so it's just a
lame excuse to own the customers.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
And the obvious problem in the DMCA case is that the modifications are also
necessary to do things that _aren 't_ copyright infringement, like side
loading apps on iOS, or creating a screen reader for the blind, or making
useful third party improvements to the media device in general.

It's as if the problem was people rolling back odometers and instead of
passing a law against rolling back odometers they passed a law against making
any modifications whatsoever to a vehicle that has an odometer.

There is already a law against copyright infringement. What is the DMCA anti-
circumvention law adding to that other than to prohibit things that _aren 't_
copyright infringement?

------
gumby
The "legal in the EU" part distracts from the true injustice of this kind of
activity being criminalized.

Countries have different laws. You can be convicted in most EU states of
saying things which are protected speech in the US. Or for getting an
abortion.

But this law is an example of the primacy of corporate activity over human
rights.

~~~
Tech-Noir
> The "legal in the EU" part distracts from the true injustice of this kind of
> activity being criminalized.

It also creates unnecessary confusion since it implies an American was jailed
_in Europe_ for something that's legal in Europe. For the reason you give -
countries have different laws - there's no reason to mention Europe otherwise.

> You can be convicted in most EU states [...] for getting an abortion.

I'd love to know where you got this from.

~~~
gumby
Sorry, that sentence was structured poorly and it's too late to edit my
comment. Let me split it in two:

1> In most EU states, some speech which is protected in the USA is illegal
(e.g. pro-nazi statements which are understandably forbidden in certain
countries).

2> Another example of something legal in the USA is abortion, while some
countries in Europe are more restrictive (Malta 100%, Andorra, Italy, Ireland
and Poland almost so, usw).

~~~
Tech-Noir
Ah okay. I thought at first you may have meant something illegal in the USA,
but not Europe, but that didn't really make sense. Although, the first Google
result for "convicted for having an abortion" is this sad case:

[http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/appeal-indiana-woman-convicted-
ha...](http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/appeal-indiana-woman-convicted-having-
abortion)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purvi_Patel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purvi_Patel)

------
hudibras
This was a 22-year-old guy who made $50 profit selling a modified Wii to an
undercover cop, by the way.

~~~
tptacek
That's not quite true. Selling the Wii to the cop was the predicate to his
indictment. But he was prosecuted for running a business selling mod chips.
They found something like a dozen waiting to to be installed and sold in his
workshop, and presented evidence of his ongoing commercial venture at trial.

What really happened here is that he got _royally_ screwed at sentencing.
Criminal History Category I, at effectively the base sentencing level for
criminal DMCA infringement, and they decided to make an example out of him.

~~~
wnevets
a dozen of them at $50 a pop? Lock him and throw away the key!

------
tluyben2
Weird to send people to jail for something like this. How is that proportional
to the ‘crime’ even if found guilty? More people in jail is a lovely plan
anyway...

~~~
charlesdm
Hey, those corporate prisons need to make their profits somehow.

~~~
tluyben2
Yeah I did not want to mention that; most people in the EU do not know that
privatized prisons exist; when I tell them they simply do not believe it until
they look it up. There are not many ideas worse and more perverted than that
on this earth.

~~~
Tharkun
Here's a fun fact: when the US abolished slavery, they lost out on a lot of
cheap/free labour. Guess what bridged the gap? Forced prison labour. Guess who
filled the prisons? Former slaves. The old bait 'n switch.

Guess who's filling the prisons all these years laters?

~~~
Sacho
...criminals? See
[https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5869](https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5869),
quoting from the summary:

"More than half (53%) of state prisoners were serving sentences for violent
offenses in 2014 (the most recent year for which offense data are available),
compared to 19% for property offenses and less than 16% for drug crimes."

Also to parent's point:

"Almost 7% of state prisoners (91,300 inmates) and 18% of federal prisoners
(34,900) were held in private prison facilities in 2015"

The evil corporate private prisons trapping the poor pot smokers to extract
money from them is a nice fairy tale. The reality is more complicated and
forces us to grapple with the fact that there are some pretty bad people out
there, and we're apparently OK with treating them inhumanely when we seek
retribution.

~~~
jernfrost
Made bad in no small amount by the American prison system. That is were most
American gangs come from. Even ISIS was formed in American prisons.

~~~
pluma
> Even ISIS was formed in American prisons.

This is probably what's getting you downvoted. This seems like an extreme
claim that runs contrary to common knowledge but is presented without any
evidence.

Do you have a source for that? According to Wikipedia ISIS started out in
Jordan as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad and merged with several other groups
before rebranding itself as ISI in Iraq and later ISIL/ISIS/Daesh. Its founder
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi did end up in prison early in his "career" (1992) but
that was in Jordan, not in the US, and he already had founded a terrorist
group at that time.

Considering al-Zarqawi is generally considered the leader/founder of ISIS and
never saw a US prison, your claim seems odd.

~~~
eatplayrove
Although al-Zarqawi was the original founder of what became ISIS, the person
that made it what it is today is al-Baghdadi, who did spend time in a US
prison and I presume OP is talking about him.

------
dest
TL/DR:

Jailbreaking the Wii lead an American guy to prison, while it would have been
legal in Europe, according to the EUCJ.

~~~
JohnStrangeII
To be 'fair', this merely reflects a known major difference between the US and
Europe.

Just about any felony is associated with a maximum sentence that is roughly 10
times higher in the US than in Europe. The US justice system is all about
retribution, this is so ingrained in the US psyche that ssemingly normal
people who think they are humane and have good moral compass will make "don't
drop the soap jokes" and basically accept prison rape as normal way of dealing
with felons, provided they dislike the crime enough. Even US judges
occasionally state in public that they hope that the defendant will die in
prison.

People in Europe tend to be more civil in such matters.

~~~
squarefoot
The real difference is that the jail system is privatized in the US, so that
it has become a profiting system not that different from hotels and resorts.
Hotels and resorts need to get a constant influx of customers to be kept in
business, so do private prisons, and harsh punitive laws help to get that
goal. Make prisons public and the sudden need to save taxpayers money will
force them to keep only real criminals behind bars.

~~~
justaguyhere
Hysteria whipped up by media/politicians, private prison industry etc all
contribute to the problem, but the attitude of the general public towards
crime/punishment is very different here. This is true even after someone gets
released from prison - it is _so_ hard to find jobs, apartments etc once
you've been to prison.

I don't know of any other country that has elections for _judges_!

~~~
CaptSpify
I'm curious as to why you think elections for judges is a bad thing? I'm not
advocating for that system (I'm the first to say the US system is completely
fucked), but the only other way I know of is by getting appointed, which also
seems like a terribly corrupt system to me.

~~~
isostatic
Do you think we should elect doctors?

Surely doctors should be experts in medicene, and judges should be experts on
law. If you're elected you are an expert in being elected.

~~~
iforgotpassword
Yes but if a doctor sucks, nobody will consult him anymore after a while but
with judges you don't get to pick one ...

~~~
isostatic
Next time I get taken to hospital having been in a car crash I'll be sure to
review the doctor's ratings on yelp before he stems the catastrophic internal
bleeding

------
kakarot
I love the art Nintendo produces and the company has been an integral part of
my childhood, but I find their stance on piracy to be some of the most
detestable in the industry.

Fuck them for sending some poor guy to prison for modifying hardware he owned.
Almost makes you want to pirate their games in protest.

------
MistahKoala
It irks somewhat that even an article bearing the Harvard name can't make the
distinction between 'Europe' and the EU. Using them interchangeably in casual
conversation is one thing, but doing it whilst making a reasoned case is just
sloppy handling of the detail.

~~~
ballenf
How many countries are in one but not the other? Switzerland, Liechtenstein
and ? Or is there another reason for remembering the distinction?

~~~
rainingmonkey
Albania, Andorra, Armenia. Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Georgia,
Gibraltar, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, The Isle of Man, Moldova,
Monaco, Montenegro, Norway, Russian Federation, San Marino, Serbia,
Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine, and Vatican City State (Holy See). From 2019,
the UK will be part of this list.

Furthermore, "Europe" as an organisation could mean the European Union, The
Council of Europe or even minor entities like the European Broadcasting Union
depending on the context.

~~~
Ngunyan
Turkey is an Asian country. Just because they own a slice of land in
Southeastern Europe does not make them European. Otherwise, Spain would be
African, France would be Latin American, and Egypt would be Asian.

~~~
jcranmer
Istanbul is (by far) the largest city of Turkey and is mostly on the European
continent. If you include the coasts of the Aegean (that were historically
Greek-speaking), then you get several more major population centers. And
historically, the Ottoman Empire was very much a major European power,
controlling as it did most of the Balkans.

If Cyprus can claim to be a European country, then so can Turkey.

------
scotty79
Why do we need this NAFTA thing again? And why does involve copyright? It
would be much easier to enact NAFTA if it skipped copyright entirely.

~~~
djmips
These trade agreements are used to project rules and circumvent laws decided
by democracies.

------
hoffs
And another person in Eu is serving 10 years for weed where it' would be
completely legal in part of US. So what's the point of such stupid title...

------
whatyoucantsay
The one thing about this topic more infuriating than America's draconian and
absurd intellectual "property" law is the vigour with which they force it upon
the rest of the world.

This is an area where China is clearly the freer country.

~~~
totalZero
I'm not sure legalizing IP theft makes a country freer, because the person who
owns stolen IP is deprived of the opportunity to profit from his own ideas.

This applies to other types of theft too. Would you say that a country where
people can legally steal food away from each other is freer than a country
where this is not the case?

~~~
CaptSpify
How is stealing a physical object at all similar to "stealing" an idea? These
are two very different things, and I think the fact that we even call it
"theft" and "stealing" is bullshit, because it clearly isn't.

~~~
Armisael16
So should Penguin Books be allowed to copy every book published by Doubleday
if they give all the copies away for free?

~~~
CaptSpify
I guess I don't understand the question. If one publisher gives away books for
free, should another publisher be allowed to copy it?

~~~
Armisael16
Sorry, let me clarify. Say Doubleday is buying books from authors and selling
them in bookstores - the usual model. Should Penguin be allowed to print
copies of Doubleday’s books as long as Penguin gives those copies away for
free?

~~~
CaptSpify
I guess I can't think of a reason why they shouldn't be able to. Is there some
implication for that which you think would be detrimental?

~~~
Armisael16
In this scenario, where Doubleday has set up free-book stands across the
street from brick-and-mortar stores, it becomes nearly impossible for Penguin
to sell any books to anyone, and thus impossible for Penguin to pay authors
for manuscripts.

If you could've gotten a free copy of a Harry Potter book the day after it
went on sale, would you have paid for it? Do you think there would've been any
sequels if this was happening?

~~~
CaptSpify
> If you could've gotten a free copy of a Harry Potter book the day after it
> went on sale, would you have paid for it?

Yeah, actually. In fact, that's basically what I did (for some of the sequels,
not the first book). I don't get why everyone thinks that nobody is willing to
pay creators. Kickstarter, Patreon, etc are living proof that people _want_ to
pay.

We really need to wake up to the fact that distribution for media is basically
a solved problem. We don't need gateways who continue to creat artificial
barriers just so that their dying industry can try and stay alive.

------
Molaxx
Fun to be a corporate under Trump. Big surprise

------
drakonka
Having lived in the US for 6 years when I was younger I became very acquainted
first hand with Americans' touted importance of freedom, and their pride in
the freedom they get as Americans. At the time I was too young to question
this, and just thought of Americans as very proud and free people - I even got
the bug myself and felt a great sense of pride and appreciation about having
the privilege to live free in America.

That was a long time ago and I am now on my fourth country of residence. Now
the espousing of "freedom" some Americans often express when discussing living
in Europe vs the US is sort of baffling when there are so many examples of
Americans being the _opposite_ of free. This is one example of greater
restrictions on their lives which Americans are forced to accept. It seems
like freedom in the US is crippled at so many turns, either by corporations or
lack of government support when you really need it in a bad financial
situation. You're not free to expect your health to be taken care of no matter
what your financial situation; you're not free from living in often
astonishing debt just to to get a higher education; you're not free to feel
any sort of real sense of job security when an employer can fire you at will
with little protection; you're not free to make a mistake, maybe like this
one, without facing overblown charges and/or prison sentences; etc...Living in
the US now just seems like it would be so stressful.

Europe has its problems, but having lived in both places I know where I
personally feel more "free".

~~~
Illniyar
"You're not free to expect your health to be taken care of no matter what your
financial situation; you're not free from living in often astonishing debt
just to to get a higher education; you're not free to feel any sort of real
sense of job security when an employer can fire you at will with little
protection;"

I think universal healthcare, affordable higher education and social security
are basic necessities and it's insane that the US doesn't have them.

But that's not freedom, that's socialism. It's like saying that US citizens
are not free to travel because airplane tickets are expensive.

Freedom means that you get a choice, even if that choice is going to screw
yourself later in life - for instance not buying health insurance. All those
things you mention are paid by your taxes - someone is literally taking money
away from you to pay for something you might not need - thats hardly freedom.

In this sense the US is the freest country to live in, though not necessarily
the best one.

~~~
MereInterest
I think there is a tendency in the US to define "freedom" only in terms of
what somebody is not prevented from doing, rather than what somebody is
enabled to do. This is partly historical, as the Bill of Rights describes only
restrictions of what the government may not do, and does not have any
statements about things that the government must ensure.

Your use of freedom and socialism as opposing ideas, rather than as two
separate axes, suggests that you might be making this assumption.

~~~
krapp
Many Americans consider their freedoms to be individual and inalienable - that
they exist in spite of government, not thanks to it. Their coercive nature
puts governments in opposition to freedom regardless of the intent behind the
laws they enforce, or their benefit to society as a whole.

Socialism seems opposed to freedom because it requires a greater scope of
government power, and therefore, a greater suppression of individual and
collective liberty, than capitalism. Of course, not everyone agrees with even
those broad definitions of socialism or capitalism (in the American
libertarian sense of capitalism, anyway.)

In other words, in the US the view tends to be that "the government which
governs best, governs least."

~~~
psychometry
Literally no one would agree that is a definition of socialism.

[https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Asocialiasm](https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Asocialiasm)

~~~
krapp
You're talking about the definition of socialism as accepted by people
familiar with socialism versus the definition of socialism by people who
consider it "Stalinism lite" because they have only ever encountered it as a
pejorative to that effect.

Whether or not they're technically accurate is irrelevant - it's still what
many Americans believe. Reasonable people can disagree with it but it's simply
untrue that "literally no one" agrees with it.

------
puppetmaster40
Is this Hollywood, related to Reddit founder Aeron? Or New Zeland Kim?

