

Swiss police: Screen in Tesla cars is too large - chmars
http://www.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.handelszeitung.ch%2Funternehmen%2Fstaatsanwalt-hat-tesla-bildschirm-im-visier-559348

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eps
I wouldn't dismiss this as nonsense.

Swiss roads and driving rules are both safe and very sensible. People drive at
limit, but limits actually make sense. There's plenty 1.5-lane two-way roads,
but people are aware of others and it never causes any issues. Roundabouts are
very widely used, but there are no right turns on red nor there are left turns
without guaranteed right of way. You are assumed to be a good driver, but they
also try and protect you from doing stupid things when you are on an "auto-
pilot". And 17" multi-screen UI could easily be just the thing to put anyone
into an auto-pilot mode.

That said, I don't think it's a big deal for Tesla. For one, they can auto
shutoff the screen in Swiss models and, for two, they can easily redesign the
whole thing as needed.

~~~
Already__Taken
How do you make the link that;

'Smaller, difficult to read and use interfaces that require more attention are
better for operating heavy machinery. '

Sounds like a fear of change, which would be the sort of thing that needs to
be backed up with research and evidence.

~~~
masklinn
> Smaller, difficult to read and use interfaces that require more attention
> are better for operating heavy machinery.

The center console display is not "for operating machinery". That's what the
dashboard is for. If your eyes are on the center console, they're nowhere near
the road.

And touchscreen are a horrible way to operate heavy machinery as they can't be
operated by touch alone, the split second where you have to look at the screen
(where good[0] physical controls would have been stored in muscle memory a
long time ago) can lead to lots of damage. In fact, the article also points
out to issues with this as the Tesla's touchscreen is apparently necessary to
toggle fog lamps buried behind multiple screens, a completely inane
proposition.

[0] not all physical controls are good, e.g. I've seen decks where all
controls are small identical buttons, completely unusable and genuinely
dangerous

~~~
Already__Taken
I'm sorry I wasn't quite happy myself how I worded it.

"operating heaving machinery" I mean that as; While driving the car you should
also use this smaller, difficult to read and use interface.

I'm not going to defend it to the death, it's almost certainly not the best
implementation in the world, nothing in software is. But a massive screen lets
you make input so much bigger than they ever could be in hardware. You can't
take up 17" just for the radio if it were real, you can on a screen. Or have a
17" 'Object in path' warning light.

I've had my car 5 years and can't operate the radio by touch. Or the fog light
buttons on the far side of the dash.

~~~
masklinn
> But a massive screen lets you make input so much bigger than they ever could
> be in hardware.

Which does not actually matter. The problem is not the size of the control,
it's 1. finding it, 2. distinguishing it from its brethren and 3. only
activating it once 1 and 2 are unambiguously fulfilled.

The core properties of a touchscreen, its usual advantages of being flexible
and ever-changing, become drawbacks.

And I think that's OK, use the right tool for the right job you know? There
are situations where a touchscreen is not the right tool.

------
mantas
>> Only to have to turn on the fog lights, the driver must tap through several
levels

Whaaat? That looks like a huge mistake in terms of UI. I was dreaming of
getting Tesla once we got enough electric-gas-stations in Europe. But I
wouldn't ever buy a car that shifts so much control to touch screen.

~~~
3pt14159
I thought the Tesla S didn't come with fog lights anymore.

~~~
masklinn
You can't sell a car without rear fog lights in most of Europe: it's mandated
by UN Regulation 48 "Installation of Lighting and Lighting-Signalling
Equipment" (formerly UNECE 48).

~~~
3pt14159
Ah, well there you go. That is why they scurried them away somewhere.

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rowyourboat
The problem with the Tesla screen, in a non-Swiss-specific nutshell:

A touch screen cannot be operated without looking at it. There are things that
you would regularly expect to operate while driving that can only be operated
by touch screen in a Model S. Guaranteed distraction.

I think the Swiss law makes sense. And if I think about it further, this
amount of distraction should not be legal on any human-operated vehicle
anywhere.

~~~
NickM
_There are things that you would regularly expect to operate while driving
that can only be operated by touch screen in a Model S._

What things are there? I don't own a Model S, but am considering buying one,
so I'm genuinely curious.

I agree that you probably don't want to have to use the touchscreen while
you're driving, but I was under the impression that most things could also be
controlled via steering wheel buttons, so I assumed this wouldn't be a major
issue.

Obviously there's some stuff you can't do via steering wheel controls, like
web browsing, but then again I wouldn't want to browse the web while driving
anyway. I've also been told that web browsing is disabled while the car is
moving, but I'm not 100% sure if this is correct or not.

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farginay
I'd prefer to live in a society where things like this were a matter of
research rather than pronouncements by bureaucrats:

> "The distraction of the giant screen in the Tesla is not tolerable. I am
> convinced that the deflection is so great by the picture and sound while
> driving that accidents were due to the increase markedly. "

~~~
masklinn
> to turn on the fog lights, the driver must tap through several levels

I'm sorry but that alone requires no further research, basic machinery
operation should never have to go through a sight-requiring touchscreen, let
alone multiple levels of touchscreen menu.

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mkuhn
I just read through the article and the headline here is a big overstatement.

The article says that according to the speaker of the police of Zurich who
test rode a Tesla that the screen is very distracting. Based on the complaint
a district attorney is now starting an investigation. Switzerland is one of
the countries with the highest density of Teslas and this is an issue that is
only coming up now which should mean that the screens passed initial
government screening.

The article does raise usability questions and mentions how other cars with
large screens handle this problem (e.g. screens visible by the driver stopping
to show media while the car is driving, or impeding functionality while
driving).

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Shivetya
While I always thought the large display to be rather silly, really I don't
need a giant rectangle when knobs would do better for some functions, like
radio or better yet the sunroof, I am more convinced that most cars bombard
their users with too much information.

while gearheads like myself want gauges/displays for as much as we can see
most people need to know only a few items, namely speed, distance till empty,
and time.

Most displays should be treated like idiot lights, not visible until something
is outside of nominal. A large display, or even the smallish display of my
car's navigation system, are mostly overkill while not using any advanced
function. At most show me the radio and go away.

~~~
mdorazio
Keep in mind that traditional radio is rapidly becoming an unappealing choice
for audio consumption by tech-savvy drivers. Slacker, iHeart, Pandora,
Bluetooth streaming, etc. are slowly taking over the space and none of those
can be interacted with via traditional physical buttons.

I, too, strongly dislike the lack of tactile feedback on touch screens, and
the lack of physical buttons for simple things like opening a sunroof is
really annoying. But in reality it's becoming more and more difficult to keep
all the hard buttons on a dash. Drivers and passengers want more options,
customization, and media in their cars, not less. If you ignore their
preferences too much they're just going to pick up their phones and use them
while driving instead of messing with a clunky interface and screen lock-outs.

~~~
Pxtl
> and none of those can be interacted with via traditional physical buttons.

Was with you until this point. Yes, the UI is trickier, but if YouTube and
Netflix and Twitch et al can be hammered into supporting the Roku and other
non-touch-enabled set-top boxen, then the various audio-streamers need to get
support for non-touchscreen-interfaces as well. Stick a D-pad and a
"select/back" button on the steering wheel and do good old-fashioned arrow-key
menu-nav.

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lukego
The police here in the Zurich area can be pretty flexible with car safety.
This guy got a permit to install a wood stove in his Volvo:
[http://metro.co.uk/2012/02/13/swiss-man-replaces-cars-
broken...](http://metro.co.uk/2012/02/13/swiss-man-replaces-cars-broken-
heater-with-a-fully-functioning-wood-burning-stove-316854/)

~~~
lurkinggrue
[http://i.imgur.com/gWpOFVA.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/gWpOFVA.jpg)

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vrikis
Call me backwards, but I got my first car last year--a 12 year old VW Polo--
and I couldn't be happier with its basic layout. Physical buttons I can find
without ever looking away are the best, and I hope I never get a car like the
Tesla, that's replaced all the physical controls with one huge touchscreen...
And SatNav? Honestly, I don't care about that... Look at street signs and
maybe pull over and study the map rather than trying to figure out things
whilst driving?

~~~
ergzay
You just got your first car and you're talking like you're 50 years old...
What's the world come to. Having a large screen satnav is a lot better than
using my iPhone (which I do normally).

~~~
vrikis
But both are distracting... Why are people so obsessed with getting directions
by looking at a map WHILST DRIVING... I do occasionally use my phone as a
navigator, but I only use the voice and listen to the commands, but I find it
ridiculous how many people take their eyes off the road...

I don't understand why you'd want a touch screen for everything though - like
I said, even for changing the temperature whilst driving seems impossible on a
touchscreen device whilst driving...

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k-mcgrady
From what I'm reading in the comments using a touchscreen to do basic
functions that people use every time they are driving is a very bad UI
decision. Forcing people to take their eyes off the road and navigate a touch
screen just to switch on fog lights is ridiculous. Why couldn't they just
build this stuff around the steering wheel like every other manufacturer? It's
not a broken model, it doesn't need fixed.

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chmars
tl;dr:

Tesla cars are have central 17" screen. It cannot be deactivated. According to
the Swiss police and to public prosecutors in Zurich, Switzerland, that causes
an illegal distration to car drivers since they cannot ignore the screen.
According to the law, screen have to be disabled around a speed of 6 to 10
km/h.

Original article in German:

[http://www.handelszeitung.ch/unternehmen/staatsanwalt-hat-
te...](http://www.handelszeitung.ch/unternehmen/staatsanwalt-hat-tesla-
bildschirm-im-visier-559348)

~~~
kjjw
From the article it appears the screen's 'distraction' is not their only
concern. Also of concern is the layered interface which requires one to
navigate down several levels of menus to do things such as 'turn the fog
lights on'.

~~~
Pxtl
That sounds completely legitimate, actually. Touchscreens have no business
being used to operate a car, since you have to _look_ at them to work them,
whereas I can operate every control in my old Pontiac without taking my eyes
off the road.

~~~
cfqycwz
Exactly; any car UI that requires you to look at anything but the road is
really bad UI. This, to me, is a much more legitimate and concrete argument
than "it might be distracting."

~~~
k_wisniewski
That was exactly my thought when I saw Tesla for the first time! I love how
this car looks and that it's a technological marvel, but big touchscreen
requiring you to look somewhere else instead of focusing on the road is a
really bad thing. Recently I've started to think why won't car manufacturers
create a good multimedia interaface displayed on the windshield. It could
sense when you drive faster than some really low threshold and limit amount of
UI elements and distractions. When it comes to controlling infotainment
systems there IMHO are two reasonable options: first are buttons on the
steering wheel, and the second is employing thing like MYO, assuming it works
well.

~~~
Pxtl
Yeah, this is a place where the auto industry could learn from the console-
gaming industry - give the users generalist, reusable physical controls and a
HUD.

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jmulho
A 17" touch screen interface could actually be safer than the normal
interfaces you find in cars. Is there any interface in a car that you can use
without diverting your eyes from the road? Horn, blinkers, wipers, radio
volume maybe. A touch screen interface with 4 inch buttons is going to divert
your eyes for less time than the normal 1/4 inch physical buttons. See Fitts's
Law
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts's_law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts's_law).
Good organization, large buttons, shallow menus, limited options -- should be
safer.

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codex
There is a slight whiff of desperation around many things Tesla does. For a
while that was a real risk of the company not surviving, and they pulled out
all the stops; when marketing and safety were at odds, marketing won. This
over-the-top, "jump the shark" touchscreen is excess right out of the 80s. The
adaptive air suspension is another example of marketing over common sense.

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Tloewald
Is it backlit display? That would be infuriating at night.

From the sounds of things the Tesla's UI design is abysmal.

~~~
acomjean
It is backlit. and its big, but I didn't find it distracting.

My mom has a Tesla. The UI works as my Mom has no problems navigating it
(although tech savy she's a little older). A lot the controls are on the
screen (radio/temp). It splits too. Being big probably helps as its faster to
look at.

This integrated computer approach has been around for a while. I still like
some physical controls.

~~~
cbaleanu
Scenario: I'm on the highway, doing 80+ mph at night and I want to turn on the
rear window defroster as I cannot see properly.

A touchscreen means I _have_ to take my eyes off the road and focus on
directing my right index to touch a bunch of pixels, with no physical feedback
whatsoever.

Staring at the backlit display made my eyes readjust to that light intensity
and now when I look back at the road, well, I cannot see that well for a few
seconds while my eyes adjust back.

Hmm, does not sound that safe to me.

PS Been driving in the US and Europe for more than 18 years now.

~~~
masklinn
> A touchscreen means I have to take my eyes off the road and focus on
> directing my right index to touch a bunch of pixels, with no physical
> feedback whatsoever.

And there's worse, "commonly used controls" (such as airco and defrost) are at
the very bottom of the touchscreen, at knee height.

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ergzay
Some "hacker news" this is, you guys are all anti-technology.

