
Decision fatigue - diablo1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_fatigue
======
DiabloD3
Someone is probably going to quote that study where they say decision fatigue
doesn't exist, and I'm going to head you off right now: It exists, everyone on
HN has experienced it, and one of the best tools a successful businessman has
is being able to differentiate between which decisions actually need their
input, and none of us use that tool enough.

Case in point: it is 2 pm, I am on HN replying to this.

Also, someone is going to probably recommend reading "Thinking Fast and Slow".
It's not at the top of my list of books to read, but you should read it once
just so you understand the references to it.

~~~
hinkley
I had a very, very illuminating discussion with the guy in charge of repairs
when my kitchen sprung a leak.

Kitchen layout is constrained a lot by physics, and again by ergonomics, and
the customer's theories on how the kitchen should be don't always allow for
these. He confessed that the reason they bombard you with a million tile and
color and flooring and countertop options is to induce decision fatigue.

So that when they hit you with the news that the sink can go in exactly two
places and which one do you want, you just answer instead of fighting them on
the stuff they know, care about, and cannot change no matter how long you
monologue about it.

I don't know if I was more shocked that they had this figured out, or that
software developers _don 't_.

~~~
blt
By "physics" do you mean actual laws of physics, or "which wall contains the
plumbing"?

~~~
whatshisface
You can't put the sink upside-down and have it pour up.

~~~
rzzzt
Not with that attitude!

------
burkaman
> For instance, judges in court have been shown to make poorer-quality
> decisions late in the day than they do early in the day.

This references the study "Extraneous factors in judicial decisions":
[https://www.pnas.org/content/108/17/6889](https://www.pnas.org/content/108/17/6889)

Here's an article, which has been posted on HN a few times, about why the
conclusions of that study don't make sense:
[https://nautil.us/blog/impossibly-hungry-
judges](https://nautil.us/blog/impossibly-hungry-judges)

Here's a concise HN comment about how the observed effect is explained without
decision fatigue:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703990](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703990)

~~~
riazrizvi
Decision Fatigue is like muscle fatigue in that it is mostly due to the waning
of glycogen feeding your brain. When the cause is lack of glycogen due to
hunger, as in the case of judges who have good snack discipline, they exhibit
it just before meal times. When the cause is lack of glycogen from high
insulin due to sugary snacks (as provided by your typical startup) you exhibit
decision fatigue after you eat candy or drink soda. Exercise helps because it
it raises your resting metabolic rate so more glycogen is flowing through your
body at any one time. Stimulants help because they increase hormones like
epinephrine and norepinephrine which also increase metabolic rate.

There are secondary effects like nutrient deficiencies that can result in low
essential neurotransmitters. And also if you stay focused on one thing, I
think Troxler Fading can increase the the energy draw your brain needs to stay
focused on that one thing.

Probably as important is complexity/uncertainty. If glycogen delivery is your
capacity to work, complexity/uncertainty is the primary demand that the work
has on your brain. So if you can keep redrawing/refactoring your problem in
simple terms, I find you can keep going when others cannot.

~~~
oehtXRwMkIs
Everything you said is precisely what is controversial and under question
these days regarding both decision fatigue and ego depletion. The original
experiments proposing such theories have failed to replicate.

~~~
riazrizvi
Are you saying you can share experiments that show optimal levels of glucose
in the body are not directly proportional to optimal decision endurance? I'd
love to see something that refutes this, I can't imagine what it would look
like when I have found it so easy to evidence the relationship in myself and
others.

------
fasouto
I noticed that I have a "decision-quota" that I can spend every day, and
sometimes I spend a lot of this energy on trivial tasks.

So I created a small tool a while ago to learn Vue and to help me with this:
[https://roulettecarnival.com/](https://roulettecarnival.com/) , it's not
close to be finished but it kinda works. I also use it with my team to make
trivial decisions more fun.

~~~
AlphaWeaver
Awesome! This reminds me of something similar I built, called Bracket Based
Decision Making!

Site here: [https://bracket-based-decision-
making.firebaseapp.com/](https://bracket-based-decision-
making.firebaseapp.com/) Code here: [https://github.com/weaversam8/bracket-
based-decision-making](https://github.com/weaversam8/bracket-based-decision-
making)

~~~
an_ko
Quick review:

Very neat presentation. I often work out this sort of thing in my head or on
paper.

I was confused by the wording initially. "Enter a list of what you want to
decide" sounded to me like I should enter separate decisions ("What should I
eat for lunch?", "When should I mow the lawn?", …). Perhaps word it as "Enter
the alternatives you are trying to decide between".

------
austincheney
Decision fatigue is also major problem associated with the use of stimulants.

Decision fatigue is a problem with exhaustion of cognitive endurance rather
than a problem with cognitive overload. The former, like physical endurance
exhaustion, occurs from becoming tired due to exercise over time without
sufficient rest. The later occurs in a short time when the variables
comprising a single, or focused set of, decision overwhelm the performance of
a timely or adequate decision/response.

When a person becomes tired from continuous exercise, whether physical or
mental, there are symptoms that occur that negatively impact performance.
These symptoms are a way of telling you that the body is entering a state of
heightened stress that can be resolved, to some degree, by appropriate rest.
Stimulants work in the body to increase some performance factors while
simultaneously impairing the association between exhaustion with the need for
rest.

While these results from the use of stimulants can increase performance in a
short term they are not a substitute for rest. Performance will degrade once
the short-term high from the stimulant fades and especially as continued use
results in tolerance to potentially catastrophic results.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3880463/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3880463/)

~~~
fortydegrees
Thank you for this. I am prescribed 50mg Elvanse and feel slightly worried
about its long term effects - and also feel its effectiveness decreasing. I
don't know where this ends. I don't want to keep increasing the dose, but
without it I'm very ineffective.

~~~
austincheney
Yeah, don't do that. Visit with your doctor to discuss your options. Last year
I ran an IG investigation about a person who was fired without documentation
because of their declining performance resulting from prescription drug
tolerance.

------
jonplackett
The Paradox Of Choice is about part of this (how people want choices but
become paralysed by too many)

It’s one of my favourite TED talks ever. Highly recommend:
[https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_the_paradox_of_choi...](https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_the_paradox_of_choice?language=en)

It’s also a book which I’m sure you can find on your own if you like the talk.

~~~
allenu
It's one of my favorite talks and books as well. It really opened up my eyes
to how I am often trying to maximize in a lot of ways in my life and that it
was making me miserable. Now I try to limit places where I expend that mental
energy and make sure it's worth it, and be okay with just "satisficing" where
it really won't make a big difference.

~~~
jonplackett
If you like that did you also watch the one based on the book ‘Stumbling Upon
Happiness’

[https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_the_surprising_science...](https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_the_surprising_science_of_happiness/up-
next)

It seems to me almost like a scientific proof of Buddhism. This also made me
really think about why I was perusing certain goals or not.

The basic premise is that humans think they’re really good at predicting what
will make them happy, when in reality we totally suck at it and make lots of
deliberate choices that are bound to make us unhappy.

~~~
allenu
Yes! I watched that video as well around the same time and read the book.
(Admittedly I was in a "positive psychology" kick at the time and was
consuming anything about happiness.)

I like your summary. An even more general way to look at is that we have less
control over our minds (and moods) than we expect, so don't stress about it.
:)

~~~
yboris
I too read many books on Positive Psychology and can highly recommend for you
an attempt to unify the field into a cohesive whole:

 _The Good Life: Unifying the Philosophy and Psychology of Well-Being_ by
Michael Bishop

[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YD26TIS/ref=dbs_a_def_r...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YD26TIS/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0)

The author points out how the current field is fragmented with no underlying
theory, and he provides one by reconciling the demands of psychologists and
philosophers who have thought and written about this topic.

------
blt
The aviation community has developed a lot of interesting insights into human
decision making. The concept of "pilot workload" is important. Most accidents
happen under high pilot workload. An example of high workload is the takeoff:
the pilot must make decisions about thrust, flaps, landing gear, pitch,
altitude, and heading all within a brief window.

The autopilot helps reduce workload during those brief high-workload moments.
It's also critical for reducing decision fatigue on long flights.

[https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Portal:OGHFA](https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Portal:OGHFA)

------
cik
I'm a hard believer in decision fatigue, and live my life accordingly. By
doing so I've noticed that I've dramatically increased my quality of life -
and quite frankly I no longer have "brain dead days".

My favourite mechanism for doing so is prepping my clothes, prepping my my
next day, and preparing my lunch - all the night before. Similarly knowing
what we'll eat for dinner the next night. It might not work for everyone else
- and I'm not the planner type, but this has dramatically improved my life.

~~~
GaryNumanVevo
You might have autism then, my younger adult brother has to habitually
organize his week before hand, clothes, meals, etc to cope with it. It
certainly helps him focus during the week.

~~~
cik
Nope - I don't any any of those needs (few in general actually). It's more
that this possible decision point is gone. It's uplifting, at least for me.

------
cperciva
Note that the commonly cited example of judges being more likely to grant bail
earlier in the morning and immediately after lunch is at least partly due to a
confounder: The cases where the accused has a lawyer go first.

~~~
sanj
Also, easier cases often go first.

~~~
sixothree
Surprised there was no control for that sort of thing.

------
dumbfoundded
I think this is common for entrepreneurs. I've found focusing on my personal
mental health has generally been positive for my company.

For example, I nap now whenever I want. Whether I lost sleep b/c of some late
night problem or just stress, I vigilantly make sure I get enough sleep.
Exercise is huge too. Your mental state builds on your physical state.

------
jariel
In software, UI design and in creative fields, this is a real thing. If you
have unlimited options (like in music production), you spend all of your time
on a tangent-tangent-tangent caught up in decision after decision.

------
zimbatm
Decision Fatigue: when you spend all your daily quota deciding which HN
articles to read.

------
jbob2000
A great method to help you track decision fatigue is the spoon theory
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory).

Basically; start the day with X number of spoons. Every time you make a
decision, take away a spoon. Spoons run out? Your day is done!

~~~
drdec
Now I need to decide how many spoons to start the day with.

Am I allowed to use the spoon for the decision of what to have for lunch to
eat it or has soup just become much more costly?

~~~
jbob2000
Start with 7 spoons. Or 8. It doesn't really matter because you just need
something to start with, then you adjust it if it's too little (you had more
energy after running out of spoons) or too many (you ran out of energy but
still had spoons left).

It's up to you what you spend spoons on. If you find that deciding what to eat
is mentally costly, then yes, spend a spoon. Or set a habit to not make
decisions about food and eat the same thing for lunch.

------
chrisdone
I think Decision Fatigue has a long and rich treatment in the Buddhist and
specifically Zen tradition. One of the true practical daily takeaways from Zen
teachings I can share is that dithering and hesitation are acute forms of
suffering and akin to a broken record repeating.

A zen master may deliberate on a question, but will never dither. When
presented with a choice, do the thinking it deserves but no more.

A simple example: you're looking at a menu and they all look good. Pick the
first one or the one closest to your finger. It doesn't matter.

Also, don't cheat and be deferential; "I don't know, which would _you_ like?"
Practice actively choosing. It'll do wonders in your daily life.

------
yboris
A very related concept & book: _Paradox of Choice_

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice)

The book was excellent, made me more-cognizant of choices and about having a
strategy for dealing with it all (statisficing rather than maximizing).

Great short summary by the author in his classic TED talk:
[https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_the_paradox_of_choi...](https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_the_paradox_of_choice?language=en)

------
artsyca
Choosing a shirt and tie doesn't contribute to decision fatigue in fact modern
professional dress is designed to mitigate decision fatigue in many small and
subtle ways without reducing the process of dressing to absurdity

------
js8
I wonder if decision fatigue is related to our search for novelty. The
decisions might be exciting at first, but then the novelty wears off and we
become less interested.

------
Kagerjay
I usually set a time limit of how long it takes for me to make a decision

Once I write something I don't go back to fix it until after its done

------
pengaru
Bandwidth is finite.

