
Why We're Failing in Math and Science - toffer
http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/08/why-were-failing-in-math-and-science.html
======
randomwalker
This article is complete bullshit.

I'm an academic. I do math and science for a living. I'm also an immigrant. I
lived most of my life in India. I also have a lot of European friends, and
actually just got back from a Europe trip hanging out with a number of
European academics. Finally, I've also looked at the statistics on this
subject.

Every way you look at it, the U.S actually kicks ass in math an science,
whether you look at top research or the averages. Take SAT math. Think of a
country that has a reputation for excellence in high school math. Eastern
Europe immediately comes to mind. Shall we say Romania? Guess what, cynics?
U.S scores are on average 30 points higher than Romania's. Or take Nobel
prizes. No other country even comes close to the U.S. If we're so bad at
science and math, why do we have Silicon Valley and no one else has anything
remotely as good?

For several years I've been trying to understand where this self-loathing
perception comes from. My friend (also an academic) says that academics spread
the "sky is falling" perception in order to get more funding dollars from the
NSF/NIH/DARPA, and the media picks it up and runs with it because they always
love a scare story. That's the best explanation I have so far. Anyone got a
better one?

~~~
tokipin
when i arrived at a chicago airport recently, there was a poster thingie
saying

"home to 90 nobel prize winners..."

i thought holy shit that's a lot O_O i remember China only having a handful.
we have here in just one shitty city an order of magnitude more. factor in per
capita and it's really a huge difference

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_laureates_by_country>

~~~
steveblgh
Yeah, let's factor in per capita:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_laureates_per_capita>

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wallflower
"In China today, Bill Gates is Britney Spears. In American today, Britney
Spears is Britney Spears and that is our problem"

Thomas Friedman talking about the waning interest in engineering & science in
America's youth in his book "The World is Flat"

~~~
menloparkbum
Thanks for the Friedman quote, I always love the opportunity to repost this
review of the World is Flat:

 _He has an anti-ear, and it's absolutely infallible; he is a Joyce or a
Flaubert in reverse, incapable of rendering even the smallest details without
genius._

[http://www.nypress.com/18/16/news&columns/taibbi.cfm](http://www.nypress.com/18/16/news&columns/taibbi.cfm)

~~~
kingkongrevenge
Every time someone quotes Friedman in seriousness my jaw opens some. I am
continually shocked at how many people take this simpleton seriously.

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demandred
short summary: America, for its fear and litigious society, is neutering
herself.

This does not nail it though on why the country is failing at Math & Science.
Parental influence is the top correlation between children and success in
school. It's not a surprise that 50% of STEM degrees are going to
International students (who make up less than 10% of the general US student
populous) -- their parents push them towards the most difficult degrees --
Sciences, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics.

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blakeweb
If you've got an extra 9 minutes, there's an entertaining clip over at ted
also about our safety craze that I just watched last night with my parents,
who got a kick out of telling me about all the dangerous stuff they had when
they were kids, which of course they never let me near until I was quite a bit
older.

[http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/gever_tulley_on_5_dangero...](http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/gever_tulley_on_5_dangerous_things_for_kids.html)

~~~
AndyKelley
I gotta remember Tinkering School with Gever Tulley for when I have kids. I
just pressed Ctrl+D in my head :)

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AndyKelley
My parents limited me to 1 hour per day of computer / video games. I was
allowed to watch TV pretty much as long as I wanted to though. Funny enough, I
spent most of my time reading programming books and making designs all day,
and then furiously coding for that precious hour. (And of course finding all
kinds of hacks to get more than an hour in - waking up extra early, jumping
from the chair to my bed with a book in hand when a parent walked down the
hall, etc)

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hugh
Article, if taken seriously, might explain something about chemistry. But
maths?

~~~
newt0311
Math is easy to explain. The only place where a student can be exposed to
_real_ mathematics is in select universities. All the other places teach
arithmetic which is most useful to a dumb calculator. The central problem with
teaching arithmetic is that it is only suitable for the average calculator and
so the average human gets bored and over time, we get the perception that
mathematics is boring and "just a dumb tool," neither of which lend themselves
to a high proficiency in mathematics.

~~~
gaius
Very true. It wasn't until I went to university that I learnt my first
interesting maths. It was literally mind-expanding, suddenly a whole class of
things I couldn't even think about before was, not easy, but certainly
possible.

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maxklein
I really doubt America is worse off than anywhere else in the world. The
difference is that America is generally very self-critical.

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albertcardona
The article is very fun to read, despite the sad contents.

But it misses one big point: the image of a scientist. When I reply to "what
do you do for a living?" and I say "I'm a neuroscientist", people smile
condescendingly and pat me on the back. Because I'm not a lawyer, medical
doctor or businessman (i.e. in my way to big money) and thus I can only be
either stupid or a fool.

~~~
mynameishere
Sounds like you're misinterpreting people. Typical aspergers case maybe.
People are probably either disbelieving you or are impressed enough to feel
awkward.

~~~
albertcardona
I bet a bigger part of the answer is that I live in an environment where
becoming rich is the only measure of success. That is West Los Angeles.

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kingkongrevenge
Is the US failing at math and science? I don't take a metric like test scores
or diplomas at face value. Maybe I could entertain international patents
granted, but not without some more detailed analysis.

I don't think I've ever seen a proper analysis of the question of whether the
US really is all that poor on math and science.

I think the huge US military industrial complex may play a big role in
confusing the issue. An enormous amount of US scientific prowess is busy
serving the pentagon. The casual observer sees the technological output of,
say, Japan more readily because it's in consumer goods.

~~~
menloparkbum
Related to this, when we talk about a nation falling behind in math and
science, what we actually care about is applied math and science (technology
innovation) and how it affects economic competitiveness. A nation of
Grothendiecks, Erdoses and Perelemans would not be a huge player in the world
economy.

What these metrics don't measure is that a lot of people who create important
technology advances and businesses are dropouts, misfits, guys who did bad on
their exams and people from completely different fields.

~~~
andreyf
_...a nation of Grothendiecks, Erdoses and Perelemans..._

mmm

