
Badgers are driving hedgehogs extinct - networked
http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/badgers-and-hedgehogs/
======
m0nty
> The one thing the pressure groups hate mentioning is badgers

There is a sub-text throughout all of this, which is touched upon but not
explicitly stated: culling of badgers in Britain is a highly emotive subject,
and it's become one of the touchstone issues for many people, along with (for
example) fox-hunting and other so-called blood-sports. (Although the badgers
are being culled, rather than hunted for sport.) The UK government seems
committed to reducing badger numbers at the urging of the farming industry who
despise badgers for their role in spreading bovine tuberculosis. Opponents of
the cull maintain it merely disperses badgers, making the TB problem worse.

So if badgers are killing hedgehogs (an even more popular animal due to their
role in English folklore and fiction) it might change attitudes towards badger
culling. Personally, I think he underplays the role of road-kill in their
demise, the "flat hedgehog" has become a cultural reference-point:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R5tUc1S3cc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R5tUc1S3cc)

It will be interesting to see if this story goes mainstream and affects the
ongoing debate in any way.

~~~
oneandoneis2
Hedgehogs aren't nearly as common road-kill casualties as people tend to think
- it's just that their prickles break down really slowly, so we see more of
their remains on the road than other animals. Not because so many of them die,
just because the evidence hangs around longer.

~~~
m0nty
Yes, it's a good point - it just looks awful so I suppose it registers. High
levels of road-kill also indicate that there is enough of a species to become
road-kill on a frequent basis. The wet Spring a few years ago caused a
significant decline in some bird species, Barn Owls being among them.
Biologists knew this because they were finding fewer road-killed owls. So
anyway, that's part of the reason I said he "underplays" the road-kill effect,
rather than using it as a way to outright dismiss his arguments.

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pjc50
Please don't interpret this as an ad hominem, but advice to find more sources
on this issue, as the author is basically as Establishment as it is possible
to be in the UK without actually being a member of the Royal family.

He's a Viscount, Conservative, member of the House of Lords, with a column in
the Times. He is _literally_ a coal baron (Baron Wensleydale). He was chairman
of Northern Rock at the time when it was the first bank to collapse in the UK
in the recent crisis.

[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/viscount-
matt...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/viscount-matt-ridley-
protesters-storm-coalmine-on-prominent-climate-change-sceptics-estate-
in-a6709541.html)

What I'm saying is _of course_ he's in favour of shooting badgers. Find some
more sources with vetinary backgrounds.

~~~
Symbiote
Since you mention the royal family: Prince Charles wrote to Blair supporting a
badger cull [1].

It's despicable how the royal family interfere in politics like this, and I
don't understand why the Labour government tolerated it.

[1] Page 10 [https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/prince-of-
wales-c...](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/prince-of-wales-
correspondence-with-the-prime-minister)

~~~
alistairSH
How is penning a letter to the PM "interfering in politics"? It sounds like
Prince Charles is just doing as any other citizen may do when they hold an
opinion about government policy.

Whether or not Prince Charles is due any greater degree of consideration is a
whole different question. But, it's not like this is a new development, or one
that is unique to the aristocracy. Wealthy businessmen of all backgrounds
write to various members of parliament all the time.

~~~
Symbiote
He's not "any other citizen". He's the future king, a position which is
supposed to be impartial.

~~~
gambiting
But the royal family owns a vast amount of land. If they have a badger problem
on that land and they would like the government to do something about, how do
you think they should do it?

~~~
jacquesm
Give the land to the government?

It doesn't seem to me as if they got it through legitimate ways to begin with.
Royalty never struck me as fair play.

~~~
gambiting
Now that's a knee jerk solution, not an actual one that would work in the real
world.

~~~
jacquesm
It would work just fine in the real world. It's just that no entity that ever
came by such wealth through whatever means would give it up because it was the
right thing to do.

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rcurry
"For example, in southern California where coyotes are absent,"

I'm sorry, but this guy needs to get his facts straight. Southern California
is home to some of the highest density coyote populations in the state.

~~~
nqzero
not disagreeing or trying to undermine your argument, but curious (i'm in
northern ohio). traditional coyotes, or the coyote-wolf-dog mix that is
ubiquitous in the northeast ?

~~~
rcurry
I don't know much about the geographic distribution of hybrids, but I've never
seen anything other than the scraggly little western ones around San Diego;
they're about 30 lbs soaking wet, nowhere near as big as the ones you see in
New Hampshire or around Canada.

------
Maken
>Unless we are prepared to unleash brown bears, lynx and wolves into the
English countryside to control badgers and help hedgehogs, which seems
unlikely

Wolves and Bears can be dangerous for people living in the countryside, but is
there any reason to believe releasing lynx would be a bad idea?

~~~
m0nty
Wolves might be released in Scotland, there are calls for lynx as well:
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33017511](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33017511)

I can only imagine how livestock farmers will react.

~~~
jacquesm
I've seen first hand the kind of damage a feral cat can do to an adult guy
(you would not believe it so no point describing it), I'd hate to walk into a
lynx, especially one with young nearby. It's not just the livestock farmers
that will react to that one. Lynx are nothing to mess around with if you can
avoid them please do.

~~~
pvaldes
7000 car accidents caused by deer in Scotland each year, killing people and
causing damages to scottish economy estimated in 5 million Pound. Lynx would
help with this for free, saving the lives of many people each year, including
the lives of many livestock farmers and its beloved relatives. Lynx will be
glad also to control cattle diseases hidden in wild deers and will drive big
money from tourists to this areas.

The idea that the government will not try to save lives of scottish people,
because a few livestock farmers are grumpy and live in the past is totally
ludicrous.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
There are other solutions; its not black-and-white. How about a hunting season
on deer?

~~~
pvaldes
This is the solution that they had tried repeatedly in the past. It obviously
didn't worked. They have more deer species than ever, introduced by hunters,
including chinese and asian deer species. And is not a perfect solution,
because a few people are killed also each year by mistake in the hunting
season, of course. More hunters mean a bigger probability of fatal mistakes.

Is totally a black and white problem. There is a clearly obvious cure, but is
blocked forever by the hurted feelings of a few people that is at the same
time strongly subsidized by the entire population. Maybe its time to try
something different.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Hm. Works just fine around here. They have a doe season, which is far more
effective than culling the males, as the next generation is limited by the
number of does. They do counts, issue tags, and control the population to a
few percent of target. Maybe hunting isn't popular there?

------
foreigner
Totally anecdotal, but my experience corroborates this. I lived in Hampshire
for three years recently and despite lots of searching, never saw a live
hedgehog and only two dead ones. In that time I did see probably a dozen
badgers and innumerable foxes.

------
hopeless
Background: I live in Ireland and hosted 7 hedgehogs in/around our garden last
year. 2-3 are probably hibernating within 50m. I tag, track, name & write
notes on them each evening. Anecdotally, I've never seen a badger around here
though we do have foxes, stoats and, I would expect, badgers.

Hedgehogs represent the most accessible of wild animals. They don't mind human
presence and you can literally walk outside with a torch and stand next to
them. If you want to understand our attachment to hedgehogs, Hugh Warwicks'
books, particularly 'A Prickly Affair', describe our relationship with humour,
engaging stories and field research: [http://www.amazon.co.uk/Prickly-Affair-
Charm-Hedgehog/dp/014...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Prickly-Affair-Charm-
Hedgehog/dp/0141034297/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8). Likewise, if you'd like to know
more about hedgehog behaviour and research, Pat Morris' book is quite
definitive: [http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hedgehogs-British-Natural-History-
Co...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hedgehogs-British-Natural-History-
Collection/dp/1873580908/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1454945889&sr=1-1&keywords=hedgehog)

Of course badgers will sometimes eat hedgehogs! They both compete for the same
food sources (insects, worms, etc), and occupy the same territory (hedgerows,
bordering open farmland), and badgers have the means to kill a hedgehog
(strong powerful claws). But badgers don't seek out hedgehogs. In areas where
food or habitat is scare, they will eat hedgehogs. Why not? You get to take
out an ecological competitor AND have a meal! Win-win for the badger. But
there's also countless examples of badgers ignoring hedgehogs, or feeding
alongside each other both in the wild and urban gardens.

So perhaps the question should be: when _don 't_ badgers eat hedgehogs? It
appears there's no problem when food is plentiful. Perhaps we should be
encouraging hedgerow preservation and reducing pesticide use (i.e., the
problem) instead of calling for a cull of badgers (the symptom).

It would be worth referencing the Peoples Trust for Endangered Species
statement on Hedgehogs vs Badgers:
[https://ptes.org/campaigns/hedgehogs/](https://ptes.org/campaigns/hedgehogs/)

Largely, this plight of the hedgehog against the dastardly badger is a means
of using a well-loved animal to support a cull of badgers aimed at reducing TB
in livestock. "Won't somebody please think of the hedgehogs" is now their
rallying cry.

------
xivzgrev
The updated lesson from good to great: find your hedgehog concept, and hope
you don't encounter your kryptonite / badger

------
atemerev
How it is even possible to "open" a hedgehog? I thought these guys are nearly
invulnerable, unless rolled in the water.

(No, I won't be looking up the gory details in Youtube...)

~~~
jballanc
I think you only need to do a image search for "badger claws" to get your
answer:
[https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=badger+claws](https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=badger+claws)

~~~
gadders
You might want to change to "British Badger Claws" so you don't get Honey
Badgers.

------
jlebrech
We can't keep regulating nature so that it looks like it has done since our
history, creatures should go extinct. it's how evolution works.

~~~
Angostura
>Creatures should go extinct.

We're currently in the midst of a mass extinction which is largely being
driven by humanity. The selection pressure that we are placing on many species
for outweigh's natural selection's ability to act on random mutation to
promote fitter variants.

What you are promoting isn't a course of action that will lead to an
alternative, rich ecosystem better suited to current conditions. It would
simply lead to an impoverished and more fragile ecosystem, ultimately less
capable of supporting humanity, if we want to go down the reductionist
utilitarian road.

We are custodians of an astonishingly rich and diverse biosphere, which we are
already damaging. We have a duty to try and mitigate that damage.

------
nly
When i was a kid it wasn't uncommon to open the backdoor in the morning to
find hedgehogs curled up on the doormat. I don't think I've even seen evidence
of one since then though.

Conventional wisdom in the UK is that their decline is due to decimation of
their natural habitat and food sources by us, cars squishing them, slug
tablets, people burning piles of leaves (where they sleep) etc etc. Badgers
being responsible to any significant degree seems a little far-fetched.

------
lucd
badger badger badger ...

[http://www.weebls-stuff.com/badger.html](http://www.weebls-
stuff.com/badger.html)

~~~
NoGravitas
Mushroom, mushroom.

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enziobodoni
But badgers eat primarily stoats and voles...

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bboreham
I thought this was going to be some kind of programming analogy, like pets and
cattle.

