
German Lawmakers Vote to Ban the Internal Combustion Engine - jkaljundi
http://gizmodo.com/german-lawmakers-vote-to-ban-the-internal-combustion-en-1787574000?rev=1475955598501&utm_campaign=socialflow_gizmodo_facebook&utm_source=gizmodo_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
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Tomte
It is much less imortant than it sounds.

This was passed in the Bundesrat, and Gizmodo claiming it to be "the country’s
top legislative body" is highly confusing.

Our parliament is called Bundestag. That's where virtually all legislation
starts and is passed.

The Bundesrat is the council where the federal states are represented. It may
start certain legislative measures, and it must approve some legislation (this
ban of ICEs would probably be such a Bundesrat approval required law), but it
is a minor player in Germany's legislation.

All the political action happens in the Bundestag which hasn't even debated
it, yet.

And IMO it is doubtful that it will.

~~~
Certhas
Germany isn't the only country discussing this, Norway and the Netherlands are
talking about it.

The upshot is really, if you want to meet 2050 climate goals, this is entirely
rational and reasonable policy. Of course, reading the online comments, many
many people are still in the camp: "Let's save the climate, but only at zero
inconvenience!"

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djaychela
Even if this doesn't happen this time, it -will- happen in the foreseeable
future. While there may not be the technology and infrastructure in place that
would be needed for mass adoption of EVs by just about everyone, if there's a
legislative timeline in place, then it will get done. Look at the history of
F1 - every time new rules have been put in place (limitation on engines,
hybrids, etc) there's been a lot of moaning about how "impossible" the new
rules are to live by, and every time the engineers come up with the goods; the
recent fuel capacity and flow limits in F1 were initially difficult, and now
they've led to engines with around 50% thermal efficiency - far ahead of road
car engines.

I really hope that they do this, as we can't go on using fossil fuels forever.
If there was a realistic affordable alternative for me to my current vehicle
(a Renault Trafic van), then I'd take it. But there isn't at any price at the
moment, let alone what I can afford. But there will be if this sort of
legislation passes.

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dolguldur
With headlines like these I sometimes wonder if it's just a PR piece to make
nation X seem progressive (if you think of a nation as a brand).

Reality is that Germany is very conservative and the car industry is too
strong in influencing politics to follow their interests. This works
particularily well because the policy-makers are very worried about
unemployment - so much that they'd rather risk sacrificing our children's
future.

There was a panel with Elon Musk and the German minister of economics, where
the minister said something along the line of: We can't allow jobs to be lost,
even if it means we're going to have to continue ruining our environment. (!)

So no, unfortunately nothing will happen in Germany, a country where subsidies
for (partially) electric vehicles are available only since this year and are
limited to sales prices below €60k, conveniently excluding the Model S.

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21
Model S is a luxury product. What if Bugatti makes a $1 mil electric car,
should the government subsidize that, only because it's electric?

~~~
denzil_correa
True. How was the 60,000 number reached?

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germanier
I don't think the calculation has been made public but obviously that number
was derived through a political process in the government. It is rumored that
it was meant to be 40k in the first place, excluding almost all models.

Note that the 60k also excludes some German models such as the BMW i8 which
would otherwise be eligible.

~~~
denzil_correa
It is interesting how 60,000 excludes ONLY Tesla but excludes only some models
from other companies. It's very difficult to not make the obvious conclusion
on how that number was reached.

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beloch
44% of Germany's electricity is currently from coal[1]. Hopefully they plan to
reduce that, or this is a wee bit misguided.

[1][http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=26372](http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=26372)

~~~
RandomBookmarks
As with any startup, you need to look at the trend. And Germany's use of
renewable energy is increasing year by year, as shown here:

[https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-
energy-c...](https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-
consumption-and-power-mix-charts)

On sunny summer days coal is down to 25% already, the day-by-day data is
available here: [https://www.energy-charts.de/power.htm](https://www.energy-
charts.de/power.htm)

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tomjen3
More stupid regulations and micromanagement. If you want people to cut down on
co2, tax that. Don't dictate what the solutions should look like, that's what
the Soviets did and they turned out well.

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the8472
Banning ICEs is not the same as mandating a particular alternative.

~~~
witty_username
No, GP is saying that instead of taxing carbon where people are free to choose
how to minimize carbon emission (and how much to minimize), the proposal bans
ICE engines.

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mioelnir
Annual car taxes in germany have been based on emissions for around two
decades already. This is the step after that.

~~~
function_seven
But wouldn't it be much simpler to increase those taxes instead? Rather than
dealing with each COx source on a case-by-case basis, just increase the cost
of COx emissions and let the market and technology negotiate around the tax.
If you can accurately price the external costs of X, and charge that, then the
rest takes care of itself. Whether through decreased output of X, or through
enough money coming from it to nullify its effects.

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piva00
Taxes can create loopholes or outright frauds (VW diesel scandal?), what's the
problem with the ban? No ICEs anymore, that's it, go for electrical or
whatever isn't fossil-fuel based anymore.

Why do all of this juggling with taxes, pricing, etc. when you are a sovereign
state and can just decide "no more"?

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douche
Just as a thought experiment, I'm trying to imagine what a non-diesel version
of a Caterpillar D8 would look like, and where you'd be able to hide the
batteries. I think you'd need much better batteries than what we've got now.
It's hard to beat the energy density of diesel.

~~~
dredmorbius
Keep in mind that a lot of construction and earth-moving equipment has
substantial counterweights and center-of-gravity mass engineering. Replacing
steel with battery doesn't imply a cost constraint.

I have my own doubts over the viability for long-lived battery-powered
construction equipment. At the same time, running high-voltage power leads all
over a construction site would be dangerous (it already is a hazard for
carpentry and powering handheld equipment). A combination of modest battery
packs and quick-charging stations might offer a fair mix.

Construction equipment spends a fair bit of time at or near idle power, mixed
with high-load (mostly high-torque) power demands. This actually fits the
capabilities of electric power fairly well. It's the storage capacity, cost,
and damage risks which seem to argue against it.

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Gibbon1
A short search pops up this Catepillar D7E Electric Drive Dozer. Still diesel
powered, but the drive train is fully electric. 'The engine is a turbocharged
diesel—a 9.3-liter inline-six that makes 235 horsepower'

At 235 HP that's similar to the Tesla Model S. Though being fair the Model S's
motor operates at a fraction of that most of the time.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7JNPolgxDk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7JNPolgxDk)

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Odenwaelder
My bet as a german is that this is not going to happen. Ze lobbying is strong
with this one.

~~~
madaxe_again
I think it'll happen to a substantial degree. The automotive giants have put a
lot of r&d into alternate energy sources and drivetrains - this has been
looming on the horizon for decades.

I don't think they'll achieve an outright ban, but we probably will see a
limit on capacity for ICE engines, and see them disallowed in trucks and other
heavy vehicles - they account for a majority of emissions.

Market demand will take care of the rest, as I don't think there'll be much
interest in new fossil cars once electric is cheaper and more powerful, which
is happening as we speak.

Also, VW probably achieved a stonking own goal with the emissions scandal -
many who bought "eco" cars thinking they were doing their bit have been let
down, and the Germans are an environmentally conscious lot.

Me, I've been putting my money where my mouth is and buying nice houses on
busy noisy roads. They'll still be busy in ten years, but quiet and no longer
polluted - and once driverless tech is firmly in, congestion and density go
away too.

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foepys
The roads will not be much quieter. At 35km/h the rolling noise of the tires
is louder than a modern combustion engine. In Germany a lot of new roads are
paved with so called "whisper pavement" that reduces this noise but it will
take decades until all roads are paved that way and on very buys roads it will
not have much of an impact.

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dolguldur
I challenge this opinion. If you have any ressources to back your claim,
please share!

My estimates for the velocity where tire noise will be substantially louder
than the rest of the car are much higher, more like 60km/h.

~~~
foepys
It is surprisingly difficult to find an English source for this.

[1] shows on page 3 a significantly higher tire noise for 50 kph (+8 dbA) but
doesn't show lower speeds than 50 kph.

[2] is in German and from the Austrian Federal Environment Agency and states
that for cars build after 1996 25 kph is the point where the tire noise takes
over at a steady speed and at 50 kph when the car is accelerating.

1:
[http://www.asphaltroads.org/assets/_control/content/files/an...](http://www.asphaltroads.org/assets/_control/content/files/anintroductiontotire-
pavementnoiseofasphaltpavement.pdf)

2:
[http://www.umweltbundesamt.at/umweltsituation/laerm/laermsch...](http://www.umweltbundesamt.at/umweltsituation/laerm/laermschutz/massn_strasse/reifenlaerm/)

~~~
dolguldur
Thanks! The various components of tire noise are interesting.

One other thing that came to my mind is that tire noise is usually concetrated
in the high frequencies, whereas some cars, especially trucks, emit very low-
frequency noises. The latter penetrate walls and windows much more easily.

Of course tire noise won't go away with electric cars, but in my opion there's
a vast underestimation of how much quieter roads and cities could be without
combustion engines.

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denzil_correa
Germany has the 2nd highest electric prices for household consumers [0]. This
will play an important role to how far this can go.

[0] [http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
explained/index.php/...](http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
explained/index.php/File:Electricity_prices_for_household_consumers,_second_half_2015_\(¹\)_\(EUR_per_kWh\)_YB16.png)

