
Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish - MiriamWeiner
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20181017-the-bosnians-who-speak-medieval-spanish
======
r3bl
Despite all the shit that happened in Bosnia last century, Jews tend to feel
safe in Bosnia. One of the oldest Sephardic Haggadahs in the world (~1350) is
located in our national museum[0], and our tiny Jewish community feels like
this is the safest country for them[1].

In a country where Muslims are a majority (just barely, 50 point something
percent), the Synagogue mentioned in the article is in dead center of the
capital with absolutely no security needed.

Edited to add: Too bad they don't have basic democratic rights. According to
our constitution, the minorities can't run to be one of our three presidents
(yes, three)[2].

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarajevo_Haggadah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarajevo_Haggadah)

[1] [https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-why-
saraj...](https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-why-sarajevo-s-
jews-believes-it-s-the-safest-place-in-europe-1.5430455) (paywalled original,
I've read non-paywalled Bosnian translations).

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejdi%C4%87_and_Finci_v._Bosni...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejdi%C4%87_and_Finci_v._Bosnia_and_Herzegovina)

------
personlurking
> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall
> not want)

Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern
Portuguese is to limp, archaic Portuguese used it in the Italian sense.

> I had to listen carefully to understand, hearing words like fazer (to do)
> and lavorar (to work) that sounded more like Portuguese and Italian than
> modern Spanish. I heard sounds like "dj" [dʒ] in the word, djente (people),
> “z” [z] in the word roza (rose) and “sh” [ʃ] in the word pasharo (bird) that
> don’t exist at all in modern European Spanish.

Other direct matches and similarities: Fazer - To do (Portuguese), lavorare -
to work (Italian), djente - people (Brazilian Portuguese pronunciation of
gente), pássaro - bird (Portuguese). Even the z in roza, for rose, is typical
of Portuguese pronunciation.

____

Not related to the article but something I always found odd: In Italian,
'morbido' means 'soft' (used to describe food, among other things), while the
English 'morbid' is translated as 'macabro'. Italian etymological references
say this is due to the softness of diseased muscles, and it somehow just
became 'soft'. All of the other Romance languages use the term in its original
meaning.

~~~
pseingatl
The etymology for "macabro" goes back to Arabic: "Ma qabr" means "cemetery."

I always wondered how "inshallah" became "ojalá". The 'j' sound in 'ojala' is
the same as in 'pájaro' which in Ladino-as the article points out--is
"pasharo" thus supplying the explanation.

How do you say "you" in Ladino? Is "usted" (possibly from Arabic "ustaad")
used, or do they use an Italian or Portuguese cognate?

~~~
zydeco
"usted" in Spanish comes from a contraction of "vuestra merced" (your mercy,
your grace), similar to "você" in Portuguese, "vostede" in Galician, and
"vostè" in Catalan. It's still abbreviated as "Vd." sometimes in Spanish.

------
chalimacos
If you want to hear how it sounds, Spanish National Radio (RNE) has a podcast
in judeoespañol:

[http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/audios/emision-en-
sefardi/](http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/audios/emision-en-sefardi/)

------
dbrgn
Ladino, not to be confused with Ladin (also called "Ladino" in Italian),
another romance language with few speakers from southern Europe:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladin_language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladin_language)

------
MordodeMaru
The diaspora of Sefardic jews went even to Trukey and today you can still
trace it. I don't know if you access there website:

[http://www.istanbulsephardiccenter.com/](http://www.istanbulsephardiccenter.com/)

But their TW account tweets a word a day and it's awesome:

[https://twitter.com/sefaraditurkey](https://twitter.com/sefaraditurkey)

 _Mos ambezaremos un biervo en Judeo-Espanyol kada dia / Her gün bir Judeo-
Espanyol kelime öğrenelim. Let’s learn a word in Judeo-Espanyol every day
/Aprenderemos una palavra cada día_

------
dgut
"[...] the language has maintained the structure of medieval Spanish and
sounds more similar to some forms of Latin American Spanish than European
Spanish"

I've read some Ladino and the only immediately apparent difference is the
spelling and a few foreign words that have entered the language. They _don 't_
speak in formal polite form (as opposed to Latin American speakers of
Spanish), so in that regard, it's closer to Castilian Spanish.

~~~
asveikau
You might think reading it is enough, but last I looked into this there were
some phonetic changes in both Spain and Latin America that Ladino never got.

For example, what happens to orthographic G before I or E? I think Ladino has
[ʒ] there.

Does the orthographic X become [x] or is it [ʃ]? eg. How would they say
_Quixote_ , with a "sh" sound?

Many years ago I found some recordings on the internet and I think it had both
of these "old" features. And maybe some new ones, there was something funky
going on with nasal consonants, eg. "muestro" for "nuestro".

~~~
mixmastamyk
> Does the orthographic X become [x] or is it [ʃ]? eg. How would they say
> Quixote, with a "sh" sound?

Interesting, I once came across the original spelling of Mexico: Mejico. In
Brazil today they call it "Meshy-ko."

Similarly in English, many of features that the British like to look down
their noses as "Americanisms" were invented in Britain.

~~~
asveikau
Yeah, this is a puzzling thing to me. The Spaniards came in and they wrote
down a bunch of native Mexican place names with X being a sh sound, as it is
today in other Iberian languages like Portuguese. Then that sound morphed in
Spain into the kh sound, like in loch. In IPA-speak that is /ʃ/ to /x/. But
they brought that sound change to the Americas too. So, both sides of the
ocean see that change... But not Ladino elsewhere in Europe, much closer to
Spain as the crow flies.

Another similar story I heard about English is non-rhotacism in the
northeastern US. The British took north america pronouncing all the Rs. Then
they dropped some. Then some northeastern cities did too. At least, this was
the simplistic version I heard.

~~~
WorldMaker
Regarding that last bit, it's part of why the Original Pronunciation [1]
attempts at Shakespeare are so fascinating. Modern cinema has gotten us so
used to hearing Shakespeare pronounced with the contemporary non-rhotic
British accents, but to my ears listening to OP versions sounds much closer to
contemporary American accents. (Though it is certainly not an American accent
either.)

(Another favorite part of the OP works is the discovery of "lost" puns and
dirty jokes due to pronunciation shifts.)

Similarly related, there's the interesting belief/possibility that a time
travelling Elizabethan-era speaker of English would feel more kinship to the
sometimes maligned contemporary US Southern accent than most other
contemporary English accents.

[1] [http://originalpronunciation.com/](http://originalpronunciation.com/)

------
izietto
Speaking about linguistic minorities, here in Southern Italy there are some
small towns speaking ancient Albanian called "Arbëreshë" [1], they have even
orthodox churches

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB_people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB_people)

~~~
Mediterraneo10
Arbëresh isn’t "ancient Albanian". Arbëresh does retain a few early modern
Albanian features that have been lost in the dialects spoken within Albania
and the literary standard, but Arbëresh has undergone plenty of innovations of
its own.

~~~
izietto
Nice correction, thank you

------
joecool1029
Related, but I learned about the Ladino language some years ago searching for
music. This group was a side project with lyrics in it:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOFkIf__zZM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOFkIf__zZM)

------
csense
> Moorish (Arab)

I thought the Moors were from Morocco / Mauritania (NW Africa), and Arabs are
from Arabia (between NE Africa and Asia)?

I've played several games of CK2 starting in 1066 Spain, it's a real race to
consolidate both the split northern Christian kingdoms and the smaller Muslim
realms in the south. Marrakesh starts out small, but it's pretty good at
consolidating too, and ends up being quite a problem to deal with...

------
otikik
In Spanish, "ladino" is an adjective, and its main meaning is "shrewd" or
"sly". It's what you would call Aladdin's Jafar(
[http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Jafar](http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Jafar) ). I
hope it's just a coincidence, but I would not be surprised to find some racism
in the etymology of the word. My language has several of those.

~~~
pseingatl
Except that prior to 1492, there was no language known as "ladino." It was
simply Spanish, and the Jews who were exiled continued to preserve the
language. Does the community auto-identify with the term "ladino"? Or was this
term imposed after the exile?

~~~
azernik
More accurate to say that at the time, there was no language known as
"Spanish" \- there were speakers of Latin dialects (including what became
Spanish and Portuguese and Galician and Catalan &c.), speakers of Arabic, and
speakers of Basque.

~~~
marcospri
We are talking about 1492 here, there was already a established Spanish
language

That same year this was written:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram%C3%A1tica_de_la_lengua_ca...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram%C3%A1tica_de_la_lengua_castellana)

~~~
amyjess
The presence of _lengua castellana_ instead of _lengua española_ in the title
is exactly GP's point. Remember that Castile and Aragon only _just_ entered
personal union at the time! Prior to Spanish unification, Castilian and
Aragonese were seen as different from each other as modern people see Spanish
and Portuguese (and Aragonese is just as different from Castilian as
Portuguese is).

In addition to Castilian and Aragonese, you also had, among others, the
Galician language, the Asturian and Leonese languages, and of course in the
once-Muslim lands not only Ladino but also Mozarabic (which parallels Ladino
in a few ways: Ladino is a close relative of Castilian spoken by Jews in
Muslim lands, while Mozarabic is a close relative of Aragonese spoken by
Christians in Muslim lands).

~~~
umanwizard
The Spanish language is still commonly called "castellano" today.

------
rootbear
Fascinating article. My chorus is doing a Hanukkah piece in Ladino for our
Holiday concert. It's the second one we've done in the last few years. I think
the text is harder for the native Western Spanish speakers than it is for
singers like me who don't know any dialect of Spanish.

------
netcan
This is _slightly_ tagential, but bare with me...

Nationalism and nation states. We live in a nationalist world. All places and
all people are politically divided into nations. Nationalism is so dominant
that we barely think of it as a thing.

Anyway.. ladino & it's speakers are descendants of refugees from the spanish
reconquista and inquisition period. It's generally seen though a
christian/muslim lens, but this isn't the only way of seeing it. It was also a
rise of nationalism.

Muslim spain was part of a multi-ethnic empire. Post reconqista spain was an
early form of nation state, with a national ideology. No room for minorities.
Jews got the boot first, muslims followed. Refugees of an empire-to-nation-
state transition.

In the Ottoman empire (where most refugees went) remained multi-ethnic. That's
what empires are. This continued until the empire fell. From that point, the
transition to nationalism is stark.

In what became turkey, there was no more room for Greeks or Armenians. Kurds
were told to (melting pot) be Turkish. In the (many) other nation states that
emerged from the ottoman empire (eg, iraq, syria), jews were effectively
exiled in the mid-20th. Christians are now leaving. Cities & regions are
dividing into homogenuous ethnic enclaves.

No room for minorities in an ethnic state.

Europe went through the same thing. The two wold wars moved europe from a
collection of multiethnic empires to homogenuous national states.

History repeats over and over. When emperise gives way to nations, minorities
suffer. Cultures die.

So, i'm suggesting, the reason that ladino (and 6,000 other minority
languages) are dying is the absolute victory of nationalism in the 20th
century. Nationalism has no room for minorities, their culture or their
language. These things wither in nation states. Ladino, with its 600 years of
history will die too.

It can't survive in the former ottoman empire because 90% of ladino speaking
communities had to integrate or leave (just like the Spanish ultimatum that
started it all). Most went to Israel, another national home, another place
where ladino can't survive.

~~~
tronko
Muslim Spain was not a peaceful place of convivence. Numerous pogroms and
killings happend during that time, e.g. the Granada Massacre of 1066
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre)

The contribution of Arabs to Spanish culture is enormous but that doesn't hide
that in medieval times, almost everybody (including them) had barbaric
customs.

~~~
netcan
I never said it was. Neither was the ottoman empire. Both also made formal
distinctions between people based on religion. European empires weren't equal
or peaceful either.

What I did say was that they were multi-ethnic. Even with all the pogroms,
jizra and other forms of discrimination, numerous minorities existed. Empires
were multi ethnic, multi-religious, multi-lingual and such.

When those empires gave way to modern nation states (or earlier precusurs,
like Spain and Portugal), multiculturalism died. This is the story of the 20th
century.

The process is still ongoing, particularly in ex-ottoman states..

There are arguably good and bad things about empires. Multiculturalism^ is a
trait of empires. Groups like the spharadim, small communities with their own
customs, beliefs and language, exist because empires existed.

Btw... this is not new. King Cyrus, Alexander & Genghis Khan's Empires are
notably remembered for their multiculturalism.

^Real multiculturalism. I don't hate melting pot migration, but I don't count
it as multiculturalism.

------
azernik
Somehow this article managed to discuss the status of a post-Holocaust
European Jewish community without once mentioning Israel - where the largest
community of Ladino speakers live, and where public radio has regular
broadcasts in Ladino.

If Sephardi Jews who take up the Spanish Law of Return don't seem attached to
Ladino, it's because they're a self-selected group who have decided not to
take up the more famous Law of Return.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
While there is a bit of Ladino media in Israel, overall among the Ladino
community immigration to Israel has been seen as the death of the language,
because there is pressure there to assimilate to the Hebrew mainstream. (This
is analogous to the death of Yiddish in many contexts that it had prewar,
because all those Yiddish speakers switched to Hebrew after migrating to
Israel, except for the Haredim who do not use Yiddish outside their own narrow
contexts.)

Because Ladino speakers remain an Other in the European diaspora and can
therefore draw on more minority-language support, etc., they have a way to
maintain their identity that they would not have if they made aliyah.

~~~
man-and-laptop
The Haredim _do_ mainly speak Yiddish. They use Hebrew only in prayer and
religious study.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
The Haredim speak Yiddish, but they no longer use Yiddish in the whole range
of social contexts that prewar Jews did. There was a vibrant prewar Yiddish
film and theatre scene, for example, but the Haredim today aren’t interested
in that kind of thing, to put it mildly. As a cultural language in Israel,
Yiddish is dead, and Hebrew has taken its place.

