
A Difficult Situation - jbaudanza
http://blog.sendgrid.com/a-difficult-situation/
======
powertower
They need to update that statement with the fact that the joke was not about
her, nor directed at her. Their statement leaves that very important part out,
making the reader think otherwise - that she was the victim.

At the same time (or around that time) this was happening, here is a
conversation she was having -

<http://i.imgur.com/nRC5J7f.png>

Another gem from years ago -

<http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c>

I'd imagine she was looking for any excuse she could find to be offended, and
play the victim card.

And then bringing her employer into this mess -

> @SendGrid supports me.

<https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/314452708549603328>

...should have been the firable offence IMO.

~~~
ForrestN
This whole situation makes me deeply uncomfortable.

First, because it demonstrates the extent to which a company can be brought to
its knees by a group of hostile people organized online.

Second because hundreds and hundreds of men here and elsewhere seem quite
happy to align themselves with an overtly sexist, violently threatening
campaign against an individual whose views they disagree with.

I am not in a position to comment on the firing, or what qualifies someone to
excel as an "evangelist." The statement is right that she probably couldn't do
her job well anymore.

But this is a sad thing, not a victory, and the further abuse and ignorance
happening and being up voted here is really unsettling. Why are so many really
so angry? I promise it has nothing to do with this woman.

Taking a photograph of someone in a public place and reporting what they said
within earshot, without any expectation of privacy, does not warrant vitriol.

Joking about big dicks and sex disruptively in the context of a public event
held for a profession which continues to struggle with sexism and misogyny
means something very different than joking to a friend, and those people who
have chosen to listen to what you have to say, about pretending to have a big
dick.

And guess what, her sentiment about racism, whether I agree with it or not, is
shared by many scholars of American race relations who are decidedly more
informed on the subject.

Instead of shaming a stranger who has a different frame of reference than you
(assuming you haven't had much experience as a black woman) why don't we all
take a deep breath and think about how we can protect against the kind of fear
so palpable in Sendgrid's statement, the kind that cowed them so extremely?

~~~
keli
But why did she tweet the photo? Why stir up a bunch of shit in public?
Apparently she has done it before:
<http://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/>

~~~
shiven
Wow! I am speechless. I was so willing let her get away with the way overblown
Internet meltdown, but this proves without any doubt that Adria has a pattern
of such public misbehavior. Hope all her potential future employers read this
one link, if nothing else.

What a vindictive sociopath!

------
cletus
I'm honestly surprised that anyone is attacking Sendgrid, defending Ms
Richards, attacking PyCon or defending Playhaven in this incident.

The fact is that what you do reflects on your employer to a degree. If you're
a developer evangelist, that's quite a high degree, particularly if you drag
them into your public spat.

Most people in the media (news readers and so forth) have a "morals clause" in
their contract because they publicly represent the company. This situation is
much the same.

I, for example, am just a software engineer. I pretty much stay away from any
thread involving Google directly as I don't want anything I say to be
misconstrued as representing the company's view. We have a media relations
department for that. Those defending Ms Richards might say "on your personal
time you can do what you want" (to me). Well, yes and no. It's certainly at my
peril. Also, in Ms Richard's case, at PyCon she was on official (or at least
semi-official) duties so the "personal time" argument doesn't even apply.

This whole incident reads like two guys making jokes to themselves. She
overheard and decided to make an issue of it by naming and shaming them in a
very public way while waving her employer's flag. Nevermind that this wasn't
called for (IMHO), I don't believe for a second that the comments were
directed at her or intended for her to hear.

The fact that Playhaven fired this engineer over this is disappointing. A
public statement about supporting diversity and a warning from HR really
should've been sufficient (again, IMHO). It makes me wonder if they wanted to
fire him anyway.

Some other commenters suggest Ms Richards can sue. I tend to disagree but
IANAL. I do however think the fired engineer may have a case. He can show
damages (losing his job) and argue that Ms Richards (and her employer had they
not fired her) had acted with reckless disregard. I'm not sure it's a strong
case but I bet it's an arguable case.

Sendgrid's statement is (IMHO) excellent. It is measured, factual and has a
great tone. This is not a position they wanted to be in (from reading the
post). They've deliberated. They state a great bottom line that this issue and
the subsequent fallout endangers their business. They don't want to be the
story here and Ms Richards made them the story. That's on her.

Let this be a lesson to all reading this: what you do can affect your
employment. Act with care and restraint. Once something is said or done it can
be very difficult to roll it back.

~~~
georgeorwell
> I'm honestly surprised that anyone is [...] defending Ms Richards

Even though I think she messed up in a big way, that there wasn't sexism, that
she is a hypocrite, and that she really kept asking for it, much of the
aggressive abuse directed at Adria Richards since the initial event has been
totally out of control, and would count as criminal hate in some countries.

For starters, look at the comments on her Facebook page:

<https://www.facebook.com/adriarichards>

~~~
mladenkovacevic
Couldn't agree more.

I want to live in a world where I can make dick jokes as much as the next guy,
but the response to this scares me a billion times more than the possibility
of getting reported/fired/beat-up/shamed for making some insensitive joke.

Many of us are basically rabid babies foaming at the mouth to join some mob,
and go wage a holy war against something controversial just so we could calm
our own insecurities and complexes. Why are so many people (men mostly) so
adamant in expressing their opinion on this one particular issue. Yeah we get
it, she messed up and you're indignant.. now shut the fuck up. And then there
are other ones who feel that because of the way she handles herself, Adria
Richards becomes fair game for anonymous and violent rape threats, being
called cunt and bitch... and the 'civilized' ones somehow shrug it off with a
"Well.. she brought it on herself.. internet is a cruel place, and she rubbed
it the wrong way." This kind of shit makes me more convinced than ever that
humanity won't end with a meteor strike or a giant earthquake, but a mob of
assholes with superman complexes and pitchforks going around making sure that
people understand their vision of justice.

------
fingerprinter
Who didn't see this coming?

And when she pulled SendGrid, her employer, publicly into the fray via her
twitter feed, who didn't know it was simply a matter of time?

I mean, what else could SendGrid possibly do? She basically forced them to
fire her. Her value to the company is being a _public_ face to _developers_.
She very publicly destroyed that value. Further, she pulled SendGrid in with
her tweet about them "supporting" her. Had she not done that, she might have
had a fighting chance, but it almost seems like she wanted to get fired.

Not to mention that a company wants to employ people with impeccable
judgement, particularly for public facing positions. She showed incredibly
horrid judgment in how she initiated the situation and continued to display
horrid judgement in her handling of it. Do you want someone with horrible
judgement being your public face and voice?

I don't put much stock in the DDoS talk, FYI. No reputable company fires
someone b/c they are being blackmailed. Though, perhaps I'm giving too much
credit here, I don't know.

Either way, it should not comes as a surprise to anyone that this is the
outcome.

~~~
rooshdi
She didn't force them to fire her. People are just blowing this way out of
proportion. Everybody needs to chill out, especially the corporate management
of both companies.

~~~
fingerprinter
> She didn't force them to fire her.

What would you have done in the situation? You're the CEO of a company. You
have someone in a glorified PR position. That same person has caused massive
blowback by not once, not twice, but multiple times showing extreme poor
judgement. This person then makes a public statement saying your company
"supports" that person thereby ostensibly pulling the company into the fight.
What would you do?

It would take all of five seconds for me to ship that person out.

Even if you are working on a three strike position; all three strikes came in
the last few days.

This has nothing to do with the DDoS. This has to do with having someone in a
position representing the company to your target audience and not just doing a
poor job of it, but doing such a trainwreck of a job that the company's PR
needs to spin up to defcon 1.

Doesn't that person seem unfit for the job?

~~~
rooshdi
No, just human. She seems to have been doing her job quite well, overall. She
just voiced her dislike over some fork jokes and some people disagreed. That's
life.

------
rdl
This is the most reasonable statement I've seen so far in this whole fiasco.
It's a shame he took so long to post it; it should have been the first
SendGrid comment this morning.

~~~
mathrawka
I believe that it is the most reasonable statement because he took time to
look over the entire situation and gauge it properly.

~~~
mtrimpe
Unlike when he very publicly fired an employee in the heat of the moment after
his company was being DDoS'ed.

I think the fact that Paul Graham, after applying Occam's razor, preferred to
think it was done from a compromised account speaks volumes here.

~~~
donohoe

      {{citation needed}}
    

or put it another way - you're making a very reaching unsupported statement.
You have no idea what they were thinking.

~~~
BlackJack

        We're assuming these are fake, and that someone just got hold of their Facebook and Twitter passwords.
    

pg posted that earlier. Source: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5416979>

------
devilshaircut
I applaud SendGrid's response to this debacle. It is carefully weighed and
expresses the precise reason why action absolutely needed to be taken. It is
worthy of praise that they are willing to step into a very controversial issue
and do what is best for their employees despite the potential fallout.

I encourage anyone who was considering not using SendGrid's services in light
of recent events to reconsider, given their reasoned, rational response to a
difficult situation.

~~~
jennyjenjen
I just wish they had started out with this statement instead of abruptly
announcing her firing. That just seemed uncharacteristic of SendGrid and
rather inappropriate.

However, you're very right in that it was a reasoned, rational response. It's
tough to argue what Jim Franklin laid down in that post.

~~~
devilshaircut
True, I do agree with you that the order of events seemed a bit tactless.

------
nilkn
Even if I agree with the decision, this is incredibly hard to read. I hate to
see someone lose their job over something like this. Yet I can't disagree with
anything he wrote.

I personally hope she will learn from this and another company will give her a
new chance. The odds of that are slim given how big this has become--it's
front-paging repeatedly on HN and /r/programming. But I'd hate to see her
whole career ruined over a mistake she could learn from. (Though, to be fair,
she has not seemed too eager to admit to any mistakes online so far.)

~~~
Proleps
According to this article[1] this was not a single mistake, but a pattern of
how she handles things.

[1] <https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/>

~~~
enjo
That blog post is the single most reasonable thing I've read on the entire
subject. Good on the author.

------
midge1b
"...her actions have strongly divided the same community she was supposed to
unite. As a result, she can no longer be effective in her role at SendGrid."
Anyone who thinks SendGrid were wrong to let her go should consider that.
SendGrid did the right thing, they just took a bit too long to do it.

~~~
ritchiea
Really? Taking a few days to decide on a course of action is too long? When
you're discussing firing an employee? Who may have performed well in her
position before the incident for all we know?

~~~
midge1b
Sorry, I should probably have said took too long to talk about it, rather than
do it. I completely agree that they needed to take time over their decision,
but they should have posted this along with that initial statement earlier
today.

~~~
ritchiea
I agree with that. The initial statement was lacking in empathy.

------
minimaxir
_In the end, the consequences that resulted from how she reported the conduct
put our business in danger. Our commitment to our 130 employees, their
families, our community members and our more than 130,000 valued customers is
our primary concern._

Is he referring to the DDOS there? Or the user exodus?

~~~
X-Istence
The answer to both is "Yes".

When their service is down, companies can't send their email, when companies
can't send their email using SendGrid they look for alternatives...

~~~
_delirium
It would be weird to fire someone over _other_ people's criminal activity.
_That_ reason would be akin to what Eugene Volokh has referred to as the
"heckler's veto": when you e.g. cancel a controversial speech because thuggish
opponents have threatened to cause trouble (call in fake bomb threats, etc.),
and you blame the speaker for having drawn the thuggish behavior, rather than
the people actually engaged in criminal activity.

That said, they may have had legitimate reasons to fire her, but "people are
illegally attacking us in order to get at her" is not one.

~~~
ricardobeat
Here's a better analogy: you work at a clothing store; you're standing at the
door and shout "hey niggers, what you looking at? dirty motherf*ers. come get
me" at some passers-by. They proceed to tear down the store with the help of
an angry mob. Should the store not hold you accountable and only "blame the
people actually engaged in criminal activity"?

------
josh-j
I think Adria could have avoided this if she apologized not for reporting the
offenders to pycon, but for publicly identifying them. She was given the
perfect opportunity for this when one of the offenders apologized for their
own misstep in a hacker news thread that she herself commented in
(<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681>).

------
arrrg
So she was actually fired because of the DDoS: “In the end, the consequences
that resulted from how she reported the conduct put our business in danger.
Our commitment to our 130 employees, their families, our community members and
our more than 130,000 valued customers is our primary concern.”

Firing someone because of the criminal activity of someone else seems very
weird.

At least he is opening himself up to that interpretation. Maybe the
“consequences” are just disgruntled customers deciding to take their business
elsewhere or the loss in trust in her, resulting in a reduced ability of her
to do her job effectively, but in that context also talking about the “130,000
valued customers” is very weird. I can only assume that he was at least also
referring to the DDoS when talking about the consequences.

To me it’s pretty clear that if the DDoS played any role in their decision,
then it’s at least partly based on immoral cowardice.

~~~
midge1b
No, she was fired because "she can no longer be effective in her role at
SendGrid". Which makes sense, considering her role was to _strengthen_
developer relations...

~~~
arrrg
I do not disagree with you that the statement _also_ named that as a reason
for firing her.

All I’m saying that if the DDoS played any part in their decision to fire her,
then that part of the justification for their decision represents immoral
cowardice to me.

~~~
Yver
_named_ that? Which part? I think you're perceiving things that are not there.

~~~
arrrg
I quoted the segment where I think the statement makes reference to the DDoS.

It is open to interpretation, but I don’t think it’s an unreasonable
interpretation.

~~~
alan_cx
The bit you quoted makes no reference to the DDoS. You decided that the quoted
text implied that. You then talk about interpretation, having claimed a
specific reference that doesn't exist. You can't have it both ways.

------
milesf
FTA: "Publicly shaming the offenders – and bystanders – was not the
appropriate way to handle the situation."

So you publicly fire your employee? You hypocrites!

If an employer decides it's necessary to let someone go because of a debacle
like what's happened here, that's fine. But let the person go with dignity and
respect, even if the person doesn't deserve it. If you publicly throw your
employees under the bus, what does that say to your remaining employees?

All of us, and I mean ALL OF US have made mistakes like what Adria and Mr.
Hank have done. But after the firestorm has died down and we're on to some
other inane drama on the internet, these two people will be left struggling to
make sense of why they were fired in such a publicly shaming way.

What a horrible mess.

~~~
k-mcgrady
>> So you publicly fire your employee? You hypocrites!

They didn't have a choice. The situation was being followed by the media and
if they fired her privately it would be leaked and would give other people the
opportunity to spin it. She publicly pulled her employer into the situation on
Twitter - from that point on that had no choice but to make their position
clear publicly.

------
brennenHN
My email to Jim Franklin:

Hi Jim,

You have a mess on your hands, and I understand how hard it must be at
SendGrid today.

I think you've made a defensible move, and it is hard to hold you in contempt
for putting your employees and business first.

That said, I'm really disappointed in your response.

For as long as there have been tech conferences, they have been hostile to
women. Sexually exclusive language is the starting point for harassment and
assault that have been the status quo for the tech industry for decades. (tech
isn't alone here, of course)

A woman trying to report these offenses often went completely unheard. The
crimes were completely silenced by a community that protected itself with
homogeny, and the results are strikingly obvious in the number of women
working, participating, and attending conferences in technology.

This deeply-rooted problem is finally beginning to surface, and we're starting
to talk about solutions in a productive way. PyCon was at the forefront of
that as they worked incredibly hard to make women feel accepted. Their no-
harassment policy and work to get more women speaking and attending represent
a huge amount of progress.

It has been a very public effort by the conference, and the results were
impressive. A huge number of women showed up to a space they thought would be
more welcoming.

Of course, it wasn't perfect. Though we've made a lot of progress, there's
still a long way to go before we'll get rid of exclusive attitudes towards
women.

What's really disappointing, though, is that when a woman at this conference
felt uncomfortable and made her discomfort public, she lost her job.

Her peers, our technology community, responded to her statement with
incredible hostility. Threats of rape and murder were abundant yesterday, and
we attacked a woman for expressing her discomfort publicly.

Some people, like yourself, said that it would be okay for her to express her
discomfort privately, but that the publicity is what made it a problem. But in
doing so, you're asking her to give up her voice. You're asking her to stay
silent about an incredibly serious problem.

All she did was report factual discomfort publicly. She didn't lie or slander.

And now she's lost her job for it. The message is obvious: women aren't
allowed to report misconduct like this. We don't want to hear about the sexual
misconduct in our community. A woman's discomfort is her own problem, not
ours.

That's the wrong message.

~~~
harel
There's "Reporting" and there's "Reporting to All". She had many options
before hitting that "Report All" button and attaching the image. More than
that, she "reported to all" providing a singular point of view - hers. Those
two guys could have been completely innocent or misunderstood at that point
but it would have been too late as they were already semi famous, somewhat
shamed and mostly fired. She had a choice - to be a victim or not to be one.
She acted like a victim, and by that made her self a victim allowing herself
to behave like she did. I just can't help thinking how one situation got over
reacted to, then the over reacting got over reacted, and so on until you end
up with this massive snowball of over reactment.

Nobody asked her to give up her voice by reporting it in private. But in cases
like that when you present a singular point of view of a situation while
carrying your employer's flag you have to be very careful how you do it. She
was not careful and it backfired. Not to mention that this to me sounds like
bad humour on the part of those guys, not sexism. No sympathy from me, I'm
sorry.

~~~
vacri
The storm-in-a-teacup would have been completely ignored if Playhaven hadn't
fired the man. Without that particular event, the total number of people who
knew her name would not have increased at all - because people do stuff like
this all the time.

------
fatjokes
Bravo. This is the only rational reason to fire her.

------
abalone
Does anyone remember the ApacheCon Noirin Shirley / Florian Leibert scandal
from a few years back, where she wrote a blog post accusing him of sexual
assault at a conference party?

So would SendGrid FIRE Shirley for resorting to "publicly shaming" him in a
blog post, if she had a public role in the company? Would her blog post be in
violation of PyCon conference policy?

To be 100% clear, I'm not suggesting the dongle joke rises to the level of
sexual assault. But the general policy against "public shaming" that's being
put in place here for PyCon, and as a fireable offense at companies like
SendGrid, doesn't stop at dick jokes.

What do you think, could this prohibition against "public shaming" have a
chilling effect on victims' right to speak out?

------
subsystem
In my opinion he's a coward that doesn't stand behind his employees and that
goes for PlayHaven too. They've set a terrible precedent for the industry.

~~~
bmj
Perhaps a better solution would have been to ask Ms. Richards to take a
different position at the company, perhaps one that was less public? The crux
for SendGrid was that Ms. Richards was a developer evangelist, and, as Mr.
Franklin pointed out, if a majority of the community which she serves is upset
and/or against her, how could she actually do her job?

~~~
enjo
The whole point of employing her is that she _is_ public. They hired her
specifically for her social presence. That lost a lot of value in the last 48
hours.

------
forrestthewoods
I have little to no knowledge of laws in this area. However my gut tells me
that Sendgrid is opening themselves up to a hell of a lawsuit. Can anyone who
actually does know about such matters comment?

~~~
courtewing
What in particular do you think makes them vulnerable to a lawsuit? I am not a
lawyer, but my understanding is that in the US, it is legal to fire most non-
contract employees at any time, without any notice, and for pretty much any
reason (or even lack of a reason) other than outright discrimination based on
nationality/gender/religion/etc.

See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment> and specifically the
"Statutory exceptions" section.

~~~
_delirium
Can you fire someone for being the victim of a crime? They clearly fired her
here in response to a DDoS.

I guess I wouldn't be surprised if shitty American employment law permits it,
but it's not ethical on the employer's part.

~~~
gregd
They fired her because she could no longer be effective in the position they
hired her for.

~~~
_delirium
That's the official line, but I don't believe it.

~~~
toomuchtodo
You not believing it doesn't really qualify as a violation of the law.

------
shock-value
It'll be interesting to see if the relevant party here is going to seek legal
action against SendGrid for the firing. Without commenting about whether there
is any legal basis (I have no idea), it seems like doing so would seriously
hinder any efforts to find another job in the tech field in the future.

Yet it wouldn't surprise me to see it happen, given this individual's
seemingly extreme reactions to perceived slights (themselves minuscule
compared to actually being fired, justified or not).

------
edgesrazor
I only wish PlayHaven had released something this thorough as well. Maybe a
lot of this could have been avoided, or at least less vitriolic.

~~~
changdizzle
they did - <http://blog.playhaven.com/addressing-pycon/>

~~~
edgesrazor
"...we will not comment on all the factors that contributed to our parting
ways"

That's what I was referring to. There's so many things that could have been
done differently on all sides, but I can't help but wonder the real reason the
employee was terminated so quickly. With as much as this has escalated, I
think a lot of people are owed at least that.

------
hanleybrand
It's kind of a shame that two people got fired - but I did think it was weird
when the person having a private convo was fired but not the person who used
their corporate position to launch a public attack on the former was not.

But for the record I'd have preferred that no one lose their job.

------
razfar
I personally think Ms. Richards did the right thing. Rather than just brush it
off like most people do, she stood up for herself using 21st century tools!

------
skylan_q
Where have all the grown-ups gone? What ever happened to those people who
didn't have to make a scene of things that should have just been ignored?

~~~
enjo
This was _never_ about decency. I don't really believe that this was even
about being offended. For people who make their living in social media, that
follower count is the most important currency. Adria most definitely fits that
mold, and any case where she can stir up controversy and increase that
follower count is huge for her.

I think that's all this was. She has a history of grandstanding, all in an
effort to drive more visitors to her blog and to follow her on Twitter. It
resulted in her being hired by Sendgrid in the first place. This was just
another page out of the same playbook. At one point she compared herself to
Joan of Arc for crying out loud. Surely she doen't believe that?

So this isn't about decency, it's about attention. Sometimes you win these,
and sometimes you lose. It all depends on if you can get the mob on your side
or not.

Hell compare this to Alexandria Goddard, who stirred up the mob in the
Stuebenville rape case. She's been lauded as a hero, for riling people up over
a case in which the police had _ALREADY ARRESTED THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE_. She
cried out for justice, in the shrillest way possible, and the mob descended on
the town. These kids were going to end up in jail regardless, but nothing like
a good old fashioned internet lynch mob to make it better.

Oh ya, and the blogger gets a bunch of new followers and readers while she's
at it.

Again, not about decency or sense (in the Stuebenville case I feel like those
kids deserved a fair trial before we threw them under the bus). It's about
hurting others to advance yourself. It's a rather sickening tendency that the
Internet has made far too profitable. Worse yet, I fear there is a whole
generation coming up that doesn't know the difference.

~~~
newman314
Interesting that you mention the follower count thing, Adria's follower has
increased from 9000+ over over 11,000 (just checked) since this morning.

I only mentioned this because I was reading her twitter stream earlier today
and happened to note her follower count.

------
onemorepassword
I'm still missing something.

Although it's obviously the right conclusion that she can no longer function a
evangelist, I find it hard to believe that she now has zero value for the
company. You don't completely discard a previously valued employee over one
fuck-up. Unless either that person is utterly useless in any other capacity,
there is previous history or they are completely unwilling to accept that they
made a mistake.

But even in those cases you would normally give someone the option to resign.
Or the customary "mutual decision to part ways".

~~~
gregd
What value to you suppose she had at Sendgrid when she fucked up her current
position, "In light of the events over the last 48+ hours, it has become
obvious that her actions have strongly divided the same community she was
supposed to unite. As a result, she can no longer be effective in her role at
SendGrid."? Developer? Janitor? Office Manager? What?

People get fired all the time over one fuckup...some are colossal and
some...not so much. What are you missing?

------
dobbsbob
Surprised they don't already have DDoS protection should be standard for this
kind of service.

Whenever I put up a new service/site, the first thing I think about is my
competitors attacking me with DDoS, disgruntled ex employees or crazy
customers.

SendGrid especially. They're handling bulk emails, you know spammers are going
to try to abuse the service and end up cut off. Stands to reason said spammers
may launch a botnet attack on the site I'd have wrapped up DDoS protection
from day #1 and said twitter lynch mob wouldn't stand much of a chance.

------
JoshTriplett
Anyone else seeing all the 'f' characters on sendgrid's site as some strange
punctuation character?

~~~
takluyver
Yes. It is an f character, but something about the font means the 'stalk'
doesn't get rendered unless I zoom in.

------
nathanfp
A very thoughtful response by SendGrind in a trying and complicated situation.
Good work.

------
peripetylabs
It is never appropriate to distribute photographs of people without their
permission, in any context. I think SendGrid is justified in their decision.

~~~
milesskorpen
That's ridiculous. Not only is it completely legal (assuming the people don't
have a reasonable expectation of privacy), it's enormously common. Half the
photographs on Twitter would violate the social rule you're suggesting.

~~~
bigjust
Most of Twitter is inappropriate.

------
QuantumGood
If the joke teller was not fired by Playhaven, Anon would likely not have
attacked SendGrid, Ms. Richards would likely not have been fired either, and
there would be far, far less controversy overall to discuss.

So the incident that leveraged the situation into such a huge controversy was
the firing by Playhaven.

And Playhaven has stated "we will not comment on all the factors that
contributed to our parting ways," strongly implying there were factors _in
addition_ to the joke telling that led to the firing.

This also implies that without those additional, unnamed factors, the
individual may not have been fired.

So the catalyst that caused a situation that seemingly did _not_ need to
spiral out of control were those hidden factors, that no one is commenting
much about, because no one knows what they are.

------
erikpukinskis
Can someone explain to me why "she can no longer be effective in her role at
SendGrid"? She tweeted an inappropriate comment that someone made to her in a
public forum. I genuinely don't understand why this would affect anyone's
professional relationship with her.

~~~
WalterSear
Do you mean this tweet from the conference:
<https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425>

Or the other one with the photo? :)

As a developer, considering this, and the other damning stuff in her twitter
stream, and her alleged previous track record at other conferences, I would
not feel comfortable interacting with her.

So, whatever my reasoning, she's no longer going to be able to reach me, so
she's kind of useless (to me) as an evangelist.

~~~
erikpukinskis
The one about the photo. I hadn't seen the tweet you linked.

Can you explain why you're not comfortable interacting with her?

~~~
WalterSear
The fear of arbitrary public shaming over the equivalent of a misheard comment
and failed joke.

------
mlent
It's all blown out of proportion. Though, I, personally, would be a bit
offended by an "I would fork that repo" comment -- because intentions aside,
it reminds me of things that have been said to and about me, and you can't say
it without making certain connotations. This woman has been getting rape and
death threats as well.

It was stupid, inconsiderate, and unprofessional to post a picture, and the
guy doesn't deserve to be fired, but that doesn't justify the backlash.

Despite a few sympathies I have with Richards, I do think she deserves to lose
her job for her poor judgement. I hope that in the future she continues her
work towards getting more women and WoC into tech, but in a more tactful way.

------
hkmurakami
C-level people seem to often find themselves in such a scandal and are thrust
into the limelight but are able to find a new position (usually) since C-level
people are typically a scarce commodity.

But in this case, the person is a mid-level person who's been vilified in her
industry in a very very public way. She obviously can't ever go back to being
a developer evangelist. How does she find work again? Does she go back to
being a developer? But will any companies take her then? (I guess the big
companies would, particularly places like Yahoo which are ailing for talent)

I wonder how a person climbs back up after being thrust into a deep, deep
chasm in such a public way.

------
julesie
In the end we have two people out of a job.

It is a sad outcome but Adria's position had simply become untenable.

Personally I know who seems the more employable of the two. I do hope Adria
gets the time to step back and learn something from this sorry incident.

There are no winners here.

~~~
blantonl
_There are no winners here._

Most powerful statement I've seen yet about this issue. Literally no one can
walk away and claim "victory" on this issue.

The worst part is that 130,000 customers + 2 job holders were impacted by
something so insignificant in the whole grand scheme of things. Ah, the power
of social media....

------
minimax
Just think of all the things you could be doing with your time that don't
involve following this stupid Internet drama. Now go do one of those things.
Seriously this is such a waste of time.

~~~
niggler
" following this stupid Internet drama"

You know why you should pay attention to this? One day, you may find yourself
in the same situation that the SendGrid CEO is in today. At that point,
knowing how to react stands between a momentary headache and a multi-million-
dollar business-crippling headache.

------
nanoscopic
Unless someone has a recording of exactly what was said and can convincingly
argue that what was said was anything besides harmless immature humor; I think
this whole situation is utterly retarded. 2 people fired? Because 1 person
made a joke about forking and said something about "big dongles".

I think the immature people are the ones who think it is reasonable for people
to lose their jobs over this.

------
larrys
"Needless to say, a heated public debate ensued. The discourse, productive at
times, quickly spiraled into extreme vitriol."

Live by the sword die by the sword. Probably one of the reasons that many
people decide to stay anon on HN and online I'm sure. One minute you're the
darling and the next minute everyone is in your grill and judging your
actions. (Remembering what happened to edw519 recently..)

------
DivisibleByZero
A seriously impressive email. As many before me have stated this is a bad
situation for SendGrid and I wasn't sure if firing their employee was a good
move on their part. This post does a wonderful job addressing everything it
needs to in a concise, and appropriate way. Kudos to SendGrid for the wondrous
job navigating a very sticky situation.

------
manys
Dear Sendgrid, negative margin tricks are annoying:

<http://www.imgur.com/ul4JoSD.png>

------
chris_mahan
I just hope Adria can learn from it, move on, and not let that cloud hang over
her life.

As far as the CEO, it's his fault, and he should have apologized to the
community. He failed to properly train and prepare his "developer evangelist".

As far as the guy who got fired, I hope he will find a better company to work
with.

Ok. Can we go back to discussing javascript ad infinitum?

------
buf
What a tough day for Sendgrid, Playhaven, and the developer community as a
whole. I've been following this story the last 24 hours and I'm already
fatigued. Let's pick up the pieces and work together to unite once again.

Our role as technologists is to build technology. Let us not forget that.

~~~
bird_in_hand
I agree. This has just been blown so catastrophically out of proportion, and
for no good reason. Neither Adria nor the developers did anything worth
getting fired over.

------
CurtMonash
It's obvious that she had to go, because in her primary job -- popularize
SendGrid -- she now has negative value.

If you believe she was blamelessly in the right, that's an argument for giving
her a massive severance package. Even at that kind of expense, however, the
severing was necessary.

------
beatpanda
I will never use SendGrid. They just contributed to the already extreme
difficulty of reporting sexual harassment and they should be ashamed of
themselves. I hope they get sued for this and lose.

------
khet
Regardless of what happens I hope both employers at least offer to hire them
back. People make mistakes. Figure out a way for everyone to learn from it and
move on. There will be better times.

------
haydenj0nes
Okay that font is terrible, not rendering correctly prob due to some JS error.

:(

------
andrewfelix
It would be nice to be able to come down unequivocally on one side of this.
But it's just such a clusterfuck, it is awful for everyone involved. What a
mess.

------
trhtrsh
A bit weaselly to say "she can no longer be effective in her role at SendGrid"
without saying what it implies, whether her employment at SendGrid is ending.

------
jpdoctor
My understanding of labor litigation: This post will cost the company at least
$150K.

IANAL, would be curious to hear the readout from someone who is in the field.

------
paulnelligan
Not withstanding the upshot, I'm always wondering about the ill effect of
technology on society. This is a painful example. Take it easy everyone!

------
mkr-hn
There was a chance to turn a two sided error into a stronger community. Now
both trenches are dug even further.

------
marshray
Good on SendGrid for owning up to their decision and not gracing with a
mention the (rumored) threat of DDoS.

------
jacobsenscott
What happened to their 'f's? <http://imgur.com/kodVRzu>

------
jfoster
This isn't news. It's drama. The less attention people pay to all of it, the
better.

------
sabe__
"People who get offended should be offended" - Linus Torvalds

I see a lot of offended people here...

------
dia80
Leadership isn't always easy. Plaudits for doing what they felt bad to be
done.

------
laurentoget
Wow..fire your employee for being a victim of sexual bullying... just great!

------
etchalon
I wish I had a more insightful comment, but really, all I want to add is:

Good.

------
robomartin
What to say about this? The whole thing is a real train-wreck.

Yes, the two guys --if they truly behaved as accused-- were being dumb. No,
they were probably not being malicious. They were being guys. We can be morons
at times. No they were not going to rape or molest anyone. It was just a dumb
moment. And one of them lost his job for it. Probably the wrong outcome.

And then there's this woman. Ready to jump the gun and not realize these dudes
were just being idiots. Something which guys can do very well. Someone with
more experience could have simply turned around and said something like "Hey,
guys, c'mon, spare me the sexual jokes. You are being really rude.". Which
would have elicited a red-faced apology from the guys and probably the
potential for new friends and "Boy, were we a couple of idiots or what?
Conversation". Everyone learns.

I think largely due to her lack of life experience she chose the wrong option.
Is this a meme today? Dump your life onto the Internet and let the hordes sort
it out? The problem with this choice is that it isn't private in any way and
you loose control the minute you do it. As she did. And it cost her a job.
Which is a shame.

It reminds me of a story I was told as a kid about telling lies being akin to
ripping open a feather pillow atop a windy mountain. Once you do that it is
nearly impossible to retrieve every feather.

There are probably multiple lessons to be learned here by all involved,
including casual observers:

\- Your actions have consequences. Be prepared to accept them as they are a
result of your own decisions.

\- Don't put your life on display on the Internet. Few of those looking
through the glass are your friends. A lot of harm could come from being so
open.

\- Think before you act. And then think again. I was taught the "10M-10D-10Y"
rating scale for the evaluation of situations requiring your response. You ask
yourself three questions:

10M = Will this situation have a significant effect on me, my family, friends
and loved ones within the next ten minutes?

10D = Same question, ten day period.

10Y = Same question, ten+ year period.

If a situation will become completely and utterly unimportant in ten minutes,
it isn't even worth a response. Guy cutting you off on the road. Someone
lobbying an insult in your direction. A jerk challenging you on HN. Your kid
dropped a glass on the floor and broke it. etc.

If there will be consequences for ten days or so, take a look at the situation
and decide on an appropriate and measured response to the problem. Someone
stole your credit card of wallet. The IRS wants a tax return. You got a
parking ticket. etc.

If, on the other hand, the situation is such that it would affect you, your
family and/or those close to you for ten or more years, the response would be
vastly different. An extreme example would be that of being held-up at gun-
point with your kids next to you. Or, possibly, doing a really stupid thing
that affects your career for a long time (maybe not ten years, but years
nevertheless).

Anyhow, the point is that our actions have consequences and, unfortunately
here are two folks who --fair or not-- will never forget the choices they made
that day.

------
fakeer
Oh dear God. People are fired summarily in this manner over a joke two
buddies/strangers were sharing.

If the trend continues males shall start whispering when a female comes near
at a conference and maybe just ignore them or move to another place, because
you never know what shall be perceived as against.

I guess the the ones who are at real risk here are the two genders. Another
blow to widen the gap.

"I will be at pycon 2014, I will joke and socialize with everyone but I will
also be mindful of my audience, accidental or otherwise." - [1]

Just because of one irresponsible and casual remark by a female marketer
killing livelihoods of two male engineers.

What I find specially chilling and mean is - " _she smiled while she snapped
the pic and sealed my fate._ "[1]

And people being convicted without a trial is fine for Internet and troll but
two companies firing away like "you are no longer welcome at this bar because
you shouted at another guy outside our bar". So, taking sides and standing for
someone needs just one thing - just being born in the same gender? That's it?

[<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681>]

------
nilved
Dear SendGrid: you caved to stop the DDoS. There is no sense lying about it.
You're spineless and cowardly and we're not going to forget.

------
jerrya
The situation wasn't that difficult, and Sendgrid's response was
inappropriate.

Welcome to the Corporate State where every problematic statement you make as
an errorful human being prone to making mistakes will be used against you to
preserve the corporate bottom line.

An actual appropriate response from SendGrid and Play Haven would have been
recognition that its employees are human's first, and all of us are subject to
making mistakes of one form or another. That they back their employees, and
support them, even as they disagree with their statements or their behaviors.

 _I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for
you to continue to write_

It is ironic, it is tragic that SendGrid, an email delivery company, chose to
fire an employee expressing speech, as opposed to just offering more speech in
rebuttal.

The answer to the ugly free speech of Adria Richards is more speech, not
firings.

(Yes, Hacker News, downvote my comment. Make sure a reasonably stated position
that disagrees with you is shown its place.)

~~~
metaphorm
1) free speech is a guarantee that the government will not pass laws
preventing you from expressing yourself. it has nothing to do with your
private employer.

2) Adria Richards acted in a way contrary to what her employer was paying her
to do. If your job is public relations, but you generate animosity instead of
good will you are incompetent at your job. That is grounds for termination in
the old fashioned sense, having nothing to do with free speech or anything
else.

~~~
jerrya
_free speech is a guarantee that the government will not pass laws preventing
you from expressing yourself. it has nothing to do with your private employer_

Yeah, this is a common fallacy.

There is the first amendment which regards the relationship of our government
to our free speech, and then there is free speech that we, as humans,
intellectuals, give to each other.

Her speech was piffle, and should have been treated as such. A regrettable
mistake, but one that humans make, and ultimately of little impact to the
company.

"I Joe Bob, CEO of SendGrid disagree completely with Adria Richard's behavior,
she made a mistake. But I know her, I respect her, and there is no way I would
fire her over these particular comments, over this particular mistake.

I believe that a Hacker Culture is respectful and encouraging of speech and
accommodating of the mistakes we all might make.

I encourage Joe Briggs of Play Haven to take a step back and consider this,
even as I support his former developers there in their private
communications."

