
Show HN: CalmJobs.io – Work with companies who values work-life balance - john200ok
http://calmjobs.io/
======
tnorthcutt
This domain looks like it was registered today, and most of the companies on
the site are ones that are also on
[https://peoplefirstjobs.com/](https://peoplefirstjobs.com/) which was
announced yesterday by Natalie Nagele of Wildbit:
[https://twitter.com/natalienagele/status/1207435518205546497](https://twitter.com/natalienagele/status/1207435518205546497)

~~~
neonate
There was also a big thread about "calm technology" a few days ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21799736](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21799736).

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cbanek
I really like the idea of this, but I have to ask - how do you know what
companies value work-life balance? Of course everyone says they do... Many
times it seems like one company can have some teams that are balanced, and
some that aren't. How does anyone even quantify work-life balance?

~~~
overcast
This would have to be determined from Glassdoor type feedback, which Glassdoor
already has.

~~~
OnlineGladiator
Glassdoor seems ripe for astroturfing. At my last company, HR specifically
targeted new hires (they didn't want people that had already been there and
been soured by the culture) in a mass email to please leave a positive review
on Glassdoor. It's also just painfully obvious from looking at the reviews
which ones are fake, and it's _a lot_ of them.

This certainly isn't true for all companies, but Glassdoor isn't exactly
immune to shilling.

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jtth
It's "Basecamp", not "BaseCamp". I'd also recommend rethinking the phrase
"work-life balance" because it creates a dichotomy contrasting work against
life, which is silly. Work is merely a part of life, and for some people who
hold the same values as you seem to (like me), the phrase "work-life balance"
is a dogwhistle for a kind of mere lip service to the idea, rather than a real
embrace of it.

~~~
dvt
> ... contrasting work against life, which is silly. Work is merely a part of
> life

Work and life are contrasted for good reason: my time does not belong to me
when I'm working -- it belongs to my employer. And, for good reason, the
employer-employee relationship is asymmetrical. It's as simple as that.

Of course, if you run your own company or own a significant stake in the
company you're at, then it's true that "work is part of life." But that's not
a reasonable default position.

~~~
pmiller2
Exactly. If I could maintain my current lifestyle without being paid, "work"
is not a part of my life I would participate in, in the sense I do now. There
probably are things one would call "work" that I would start or continue to
do, but definitely not my current job.

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zackmorris
I'm on the market and really like the idea of a jobs marketplace and
recruiters that prioritize work-life balance first.

I've been looking at Upwork and things have changed quite a bit since when I
was using eLance, oDesk, Guru, etc 5 years ago. My specialty is PHP and
iOS/Android development, and back then there might be 3-5 bids on gigs after a
client listing was up for a few days. Now it's 10-20 the very first day. My
market at least seems to be saturated.

I also look on LinkedIn, Indeed and Glassdoor. From what I can tell, just
about everything has moved to enterprise, SEO and cybersecurity. The
prerequisites now are AWS, Kubernetes, Docker, and specific job roles or
languages experience rather than general programming or problem-solving
acumen. The vast majority of jobs are full-time.

I can find a full-time job for $100,000 per year much more easily than a part-
time job for $50,000. Has anyone had any luck working part-time or remote
sustainably?

I'm concerned that as we head up to the next economic downturn and beyond,
that programming will get more and more specialized to the point that it
becomes IT. So more about support and maintaining existing infrastructure than
breaking new ground or solving new problems. I also feel that most of the new
disciplines like SEO and dev ops arguably have little or nothing to do with
programming and probably shouldn't be grouped with it. They are representative
of the ethical/legal shortcomings of search engines, and conceptual issues
with software architecture planning vs agile spinning (chasing profit at all
cost rather than paying down technical debt). I guess to me, they represent a
shift from the egalitarian future of the 90s and twenty-teens to one where
profit trumps quality of life for certain people.

Am I misguided here? Is there any chance of getting programmers back to having
somewhat independent lives like they enjoyed in the 80s and 90s? This last
year I've been considering walking away from programming because it's not
about the money anymore. I just don't know if I can give up my whole psyche in
1 and 2 year blocks of my life toiled away on someone else's problems anymore.
I admit that I'm actually kind of in crisis about this. Any thoughts or advice
would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

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cypress
This is a good idea but I think calm has the connotations of being slow and
without a sense of urgency. Most people want some sort of fast-paced and
motivated environment but not one that expects them to work crazy hours or
will insane expectations

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rationalbeaver
Great concept! Bookmarked for future reference.

Nitpicky copy edits: In the headline, it should be "value" not "values". Also,
I'd update the job buttons to just say "Apply". "Apply Job" sounds awkward.

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BadassFractal
Would be interesting to see employers that let you work 2-3 days a week.

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paulcnichols
Good concept. Props for testing your idea so quickly. This is how its done
folks.

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ArtWomb
I'd recommend GitLab too. 100% remote while maintaining double digit y/y
growth. I've been to a few of their events. And always hear "this is the best
place I've ever worked" ;)

~~~
awesomepeter
I know they have their reasons, and it may even work for them, but I really
loathe their location dependend compensation (as a person living in one).

I think their explanations don't hold water. For eg. they actually compete
with other remote companies for people working in what they consider "low-wage
regions", but those companies pay the same rates for everyone. So they won't
get top engineers from those regions, since those engineers can work in other
remote companies which pay more (and don't discriminate people based on
location).

~~~
cj
> I really loathe their location dependend compensation

Quick thought experiment: would you still disagree location-dependent
compensation if they opened a physical office in your region, and priced their
offers according to the local market?

Companies that have physical offices in multiple regions naturally adjust
compensation levels depending on the local talent market. Why should it be any
different for remote companies where the only difference is no physical
office?

~~~
awesomepeter
They don't compete in the local talent market, they compete in the global
talent market while offering local compensation. If they have a physical
office, then they actually compete in the local market.

edit: I mean have an office and require to work from there. Companies which
have an office and offer remote are naturally at a disadvantage here in the
same way, though having an office may help offset the disadvantage (some
people don't want to work remotely, having an office to go to from time to
time and talk to people, meetings, integration parties, other benefits)

edit2: I've also just checked their rates, and for my region they are at best
average even accounting for local market prices. So I don't see how they have
an attractive offer in any way.

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ericjang
Are large tech companies like Google, Microsoft, Facebook considered to have
good "work life balance"?

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m0zg
The only companies who "value work-life balance" are the ones that let you
work part-time. It's, IMO, nuts to spend 40 hours a week at work in this day
and age, particularly for software engineers who can demand a relatively high
average hourly rate. You can't make all the money in the world.

~~~
esoterica
Why work part time your whole life when you can work full time and retire at
40?

~~~
zackmorris
This is a fallacy. I'm 42 and have been working in tech since I graduated with
my computer engineering degree in '99\. I only just paid off my student loans
2 years ago. I have no retirement, and just burned through my savings over
some health issues related to burnout.

Things are going to be even worse for millennials. Seriously, anyone reading
this should be thinking about what they want out of life and how we
could/should organize an economy and culture so that everyone can work
sustainably and thrive. If something doesn't change soon, and especially with
looming challenges like whole industries being automated, I fear that we are
headed towards a future of perfect wealth inequality and 21st century
feudalism.

~~~
souprock
Something odd happened there. I also graduated in '99 and, with a BS CS
degree, pretty much did computer engineering. In just two years I paid off my
loans, paid off my wife's loans (she didn't work), and bought a somewhat fancy
new car. Since then, I've paid off a house and had 12 kids.

I guess things go badly if you paid full price for an expensive school, used
private loans with high interest, never paid more than the minimum demanded
for your loans, missed some payments, and gave most of your money to your
landlord. None of that is required.

Somewhere, something went very wrong for you. Your situation isn't typical for
a person with that degree.

~~~
zackmorris
You're telling me. The gist of it is that I have the knack for perfect storms.

Moved back in with my dad after graduating, had a couple of the most memorable
years of my life. Went into business with one of my best friends growing up,
made a bunch of shareware games but never made more than a few thousand
dollars here and there. Worked for hp for a year as a contractor, it was
wonderful but was going through a turbulent time in my life after the death of
a friend so didn't stick with it. Struggled through the dot bomb and housing
bubble. Worked as a Mac repair technician. Flipped a bunch of broken Macs for
6 months when nobody anywhere had any money. Worked a few years as a
contractor, scraping by on several failed projects for every one that made it
into the app stores. Had $20,000 in the bank when Bitcoin was $10, ended up
spending it on making good on fixed price contracts I underestimated. Worked
as a backend and mobile developer for 4 years for a major consulting agency in
town, had a falling out after we realized I wasn't a good fit for the last
project I was on.

I realized too late in life that I do poorly with negative reinforcement. So
the things that I work the hardest on, when they fail, I sort of shut down and
lose hope. All we have as developers is our mental health. If/when that
declines, it's devastating. I look back on my career, at the hundreds
(thousands tbh) of unfinished programming projects on my hard drive, and I see
that I am the poster child of unrealized potential.

It's reached a point where I can't really write about or discuss my life
because people find it too depressing. I have unusually high empathy and
creativity (statistical outlier INFP) which tend to sabotage my analytical
work in programming. I feel the pain and suffering of these times acutely and
find it difficult to focus on the problems before me, which tend to be mundane
and symptomatic of a world gone wrong. In other words I (like so many over the
hill midlife crisis programmers) have come to see much of my work and most
trends in computer science in general as a waste of time.

It might be too late for me. I'm trying to put on a brave face and laugh about
the whole thing, but I just don't know if my heart is in programming anymore.
Imagine what you're doing right now, what you're most passionate about. Then
imagine you wake up one day and it's like you had a stroke - you go to do the
thing and feel a knot in your stomach, a realization that you'd rather be
doing anything else at all. And the feeling lasts 6 months or more. That's
what I'm facing now, even though I have so much inspiration to work on
inventions and side projects. It's like the well has run dry, and I spend the
entirety of my time now coping with daily life, trying to scrape up some money
for living expenses, and letting other people's priorities take priority over
my own.

I wish there was an alternative economy, some other way of living more like
Star Trek. Maybe I should have stayed in academia. I can't even imagine the
life I might have had. It's a strange feeling to be able to solve any problem
easily, except how to take care of oneself. But that's all I've known for some
time now.

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cookingrobot
Work-life balance: when work is big and near, and life is small and far away.
;)

