

Review My Startup : AppCanvas - Web Development Framework for Non-Programmers. - jarsj

URL : www.appcanvas.com<p>This is very alpha and quite far from launch but I think an early feedback and guidance from the HNers would go a long way in shaping my strategy from here.
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ABrandt
So I ran into the same problem on Chrome as everyone else, but I fired up
Firefox (something I'm increasingly trying to avoid) to give this a try. I'm
not completely non-technical, but my coding ability is quite limited. I've
tried just about every visual programming platform out there and have yet to
find something truly intuitive. AppCanvas is no exception (sorry for the
bluntness) but I see a lot of potential in it.

Non-coders want to put as little effort into development as possible.
Otherwise they'd be, well--developers. Starting with a blank canvas and the
ability to add little widgets seems like a rather common sense approach to
this kind of thing right? It confuses the hell out of us. How do you turn this
blank screen into an actual _application_.

Of course education and intuitive UI will help with all of this, but I think
you could also benefit by having a better understanding of how non-coders
think about software design. I believe it was patio11 who made the comment
that visual programming's greatest downfall is that it simply addresses the
syntax. The designer still needs to understand the logic and data structures
driving the whole thing. For example, I wouldn't just intuitively know that
when I sign into a service, I become an object of the 'User' class based on a
series of logical tests. This stuff matters.

As I said before though, I actually am excited about the potential of this
project. I think you're aware of the issues I raised, you just need to
iterate(again, and again, and again!). My email is in my profile, please drop
me a line whenever you need feedback from a potential user.

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toast76
I can't actually work out how to use it. The toolbox makes it look like it's
drag and drop but it isn't. I click a widget, and I just get some text that
says "add here"....but I don't know what to do with that.

Also, I added a page called "test" accidentally clicked home, and now the page
is gone, but I can't create a new page called "test" and I can't close the
dialog to just edit the page I had.

Oh...I just worked out how to add an element. Why do I need to click "add
here"? Now I'm clicking it and nothing happens....

Oh...You have to open the properties from the tool menu? Weird.

I like what you're trying to do, but I feel like I'm using Photoshop (You even
mention photoshop in your intro), but it doesn't work like Photoshop. If
you're going to use controls analogous to other applications, then it really
needs to work like those other applications. You have a fairly low tech
interface that LOOKS like a high tech application GUI.

In general, considering you're presumably targeting non-coders, it's VERY
complicated. In reality, what is the likelihood that someone who doesn't know
CSS know's the difference between padding and margin? Or that someone who
doesn't know databases is going to be able to link up pagination to a
database? You have a "power" application aimed at non techies...but you still
need to be a techie to use it.

Who is your target? What problem is it solving them?

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jarsj
\- I am targeting both coders and non-coders. People who are willing to spend
some time learning a new interface and some new concepts by watching some
videos.

\- Want to realize their idea of creating a complete functional app (as
complex as Hacker News or Twitter) in few hours.

I agree that at the moment the interface sucks, the tutorials are missing and
discoverability of so many features in the builder is super low, and I really
need to work a lot more on them than I thought. But, I am excited that you
liked the concept and took the time to evaluate it further.

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Detrus
Safari not supported when signing up, funny alpha is funny.

The UI for adding elements to the page is not intuitive. Some little "add
here" thingie shows up and when I click then it gets added. Took me a while to
figure out, I expect drag and drop.

It's cool that one can build a blog/HN, to-do list, but from looking at the
builder I don't know how. But the bigger problem is the concept that I should
build HN or a to do list from some low-level pieces. I think for designers it
looks reminiscent of dreamweaver, where you couldn't build all that much
without coding. For others it's probably too many buttons.

I think you should start with a finished template, let's say of HN and edit
that to make a blog where users vote on one writer's articles, or a to do
list, where you just remove the up/down voting and leave the submission form.
Or to make some enhanced HN, add up/down voting conditions when a user just
clicks the link, add "label" votes where you can vote for discussion article
creates, not just article, then add site sort by quality of discussions.

An app builder is only as flexible as it's presets and templates, but starting
with a blank canvas gives the impression that it's some professional tool with
a big learning curve. I think you should underline that it's not flexible but
enables you to prototype variations on established paradigms easily, so
display finished template first.

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jarsj
Thanks for trying out. I expected the comments about UI being un-intuitive and
I continue to work on them. I think having a brief video walk-through of the
interface will go some way.

I agree that one should not build complex websites from low-level pieces and
AppCanvas was designed to address this problem from the very beginning.

\- There are page templates (right now not many) which you can base your
starting page upon. \- There is a "Widget Gallery" which has high level
widgets. \- You can create a custom widget by selecting something and then
reusing it.

Thanks for helping me understand how important having templates/presets it.

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Kadrith
I went to your site, read the FAQ and then registered to test it but was told
I needed to download Firefox. I am using the latest Beta build of Chrome.

My only suggestions at this point are to highlight browser requirements before
someone takes the time to register; even though the registration form is
short.

Secondly, do we really have to use Firefox?

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jarsj
Sorry. I just added a popup which will warn you on the homepage itself. The
Design interface is very JS intensive and right now I have only tested it
properly on FF. I do play to add support for all browsers very soon.

However, the finished PHP applications should run properly on all browsers.

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terrym
While I guess the popup is better than nothing, seeing a window.alert anywhere
usually brings up negative connotations (at least for me). I'd just add some
text disclaimer on the sign up page - or at least confine the alert to that
page. I tried thumbing through your site, but having to click "ok" every time
I wound back on the home page didn't keep me on it for long. Best of luck to
you.

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chii
I think the UX is terribly unintuitive - i hadnt realised that after clicking
on a widget to add, you have to click where you want to add it to. A much more
efficient and intuitive UX would be to drag and drop, showing a half-
transparent version of what would appear in the destination of the drop.

Any half decent GUI driven development is going to have to need WYSIWYG, and
currently in your app nothing is.

Sorry if this sounds harsh and critical - i have hope for this app, but it
needs to improve before it can compete with the likes of yahoo pipes or
blogger's template builder.

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jarsj
clickable : <http://www.appcanvas.com>

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byoung2
You should have a video walk-through on the site for people who don't want to
register now or whose browsers aren't supported (I got an error on Android).

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muni
I have tried using appcanvas.com, great idea. But you need to concentrate on
the UX and UI. Try to concentrate on that.

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olalonde
"Web Development Framework" is not very accurate IMO. I would change that to
"WYSIWYG HTML editor".

