
Ask HN: Help me weave in STEM topics for a children's book - jelliclesfarm
I have been working on a collection of short children’ stories with my farm as the hub. The main characters are all critters and creatures and trees in the farm. The guardian is a crone witch that is the spirit of the Elderberry tree known as The ElderMother. It has a certain magical quality to it, but I really want it to be enjoyable reading for everyone. I would also like to use it as a platform to explain STEM concepts(I am from the bookshelf encyclopedia generation with giant illustrations). So far, I have little stories (less than 5000 words) that includes ‘human concepts’ like how to a stock taking of a pantry(sorry..I started out as an accountant. That’s what grabbed me first as subject), an enchanted nestery run by a pigeon who puts magical spells on birds nests to illustrate different kinds of nests and eggs of various birds, a Beauty Salon for insects whose markings fade...again, to illustrate markings on ladybugs, butterflies and cleaning bee pollen baskets etc. It’s turning out to be more of a picture book. I would like to introduce subjects that teach something of the natural world and the physics in it. My favourite has always been time and the uni directional arrow of time. I also want to write a story that explains why we are carbon based life forms. About the night skies. Also..photosynthesis, on soil biology, migration, hibernation etc are easy to include in a farm setting. How to weave in hardcore STEM topics into a plot?
======
mistrial9
ambitious here .. but you are mixing mental modes like oil and water. The
internal world of psyche is filled with symbolic wisdom and instincts, which
is mysterious by definition.. it comes from 'somewhere' in some glimmer of
insight..

Science is just the opposite of that .. it is externally focused, repeatable
and non-personal..

Your ambition to be both deeply symbolic, and teach reproducible mechanics, at
the same time.. is like mixing reds and blues in paint!

In theater and storytelling, there is often a signal to the reader that
something "otherworldly" is happening.. a transition marker.. to suspend
disbelief of the audience.. this is the entrance to the symbolic..

With public lecture, debate and oration, the basis of presentation is along
the lines of authoritative references, short summaries of relevent works known
to the audience, and perhaps persuasive content to get the audience to pay
attention and give the ideas a chance.

You could mix this things, but it is stretching the requirements of the reader
quite a bit, at the least, in my opinion.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
I hear you. It’s not easy. I seem to veer off into the descriptive rather than
the narrative mode.

I chose magic because STEM can be dry. Growing up, I really enjoyed puzzle
books and folk tales from Russia and later, MIR publications. And so I still
have a babushka flavoured lens and other worldly magic to anything science.
For someone not-Russian, snow was magical..refraction and rainbows were
magical..for anyone, talking animals has to be magical. Chemistry definitely
is in the realm of magic and alchemy. I also don’t want to ‘teach’ scientific
concepts, as it were..but convey scientific method that leads to discovery of
scientific concepts. And curiosity. To want to understand how things work. I
agree that it’s a fine line...I don’t want to be preachy to kids or as an
author...so I don’t want to ‘state’..but lead them to a magical place when
things are revealed by special knowledge only through a task or a journey or
an adventure.

~~~
watwut
STEM is not dry. It can be, but does not have to be. Dont start with
assumption that kids are not interested in STEM which has to be dry, they are
interested even if fully factual books and texts. Don't make it analogical to
vegetables hidden inside cake. Make STEM parts fun on what makes stem fun to
us (puzzle solving? discovery? just knowing how it works). Mix with magic can
then add additional wonder.

How old the kids? I think that your question is unanswerable without knowing
that. 3 years like something completely different them 7 years old who are not
the same as 12 years old.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
Good point re age. I try not to think of that.

------
andrewstuart2
I think the best way to approach such an endeavor might be to essentially
demonstrate Clarke's Third Law in each story. "Any sufficiently advanced
technology is indistinguishable from magic." So what you could have is
essentially a bunch of stories where characters discover things that seem
magical, but end up having very rational explanations (much like Federation
tech in the world of Star Trek was pure magic to the less-advanced
civilizations they encountered). Maybe even delve eventually into designing
experiments to prove assumptions about the principles being discovered, etc,
and explaining the scientific method.

It would be a great way to encourage critical thinking in kids without
crossing into too fantastical a world for there to be logical explanations for
some things. Even with Star Trek, where some things are potentially nonviable
(transporters, for example), they still had logical explanations that make
sense at a high level.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
I hear what you are saying...but including why nonviable tech isn’t
translating can leave a door open to create a search for that missing magical
ingredient. Every story must start with a quest. The hero must go on a quest
and fail. Until ..one day..he succeeds.

------
na85
I'm an aerospace engineer, so when we had our daughter somebody bought us
"Baby Loves Aerospace Engineering" which is one of those board books about a
toddler with a bird friend who wants to see outer space. The book touches
(briefly) on why bird's wings can't take her to outer space, and that she
needs a rocket.

Good inspiration for your stories maybe?

The same author has done ones about coding, thermodynamics, and gravity.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
Oh! That is lovely!! I am currently trying to work on a chapter about a
bumblebee who is bullied by a finch and The ElderMother explains how bumblebee
wings works differently (dynamic stall) than a bird’s feathered wings.

~~~
mncharity
> how bumblebee wings works

Years ago I saw a video (and was later unable to find it again) of a slow-
motion bumblebee hovering slowly over leaf litter. Vortices of dust. Fragments
of leaf tumbling away, like shantytown roofs beneath a hovering helicopter.
That the bee was supporting itself on a downward-moving column of air was
_visceral_.

So perhaps touch on all flight being "higher pressure on the bottom than top",
either floating, or pushing things downward.

For visuals, one might rift on wing downwash and vorticies, like
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbRmVucs78s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbRmVucs78s)
or
[https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1c/33/e2/1c33e2f2fa82b7bf4a86...](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1c/33/e2/1c33e2f2fa82b7bf4a86a1a67d32c2e3.jpg)
.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
Love that!! I have a lot of slo mo videos from the farm of ladybirds and
bumblebees in flight..I do a lot of nothing but staring at the farm. Bees are
so awesome and I have spent hours just sitting in front of the apiary.

Myrtle Mouse had an uncle who ran a surgery and apothecary..where she
sometimes assisted as a young mouse. A damselfly comes with tattered wings and
wants them repaired. In the waiting room, there is a bumblebee with pollen
baskets that has been clogged. Maybe I will switch them and make the bumblebee
the one with the flight problems and Myrtle can recall how her uncle explained
bumblebee flight to her.

------
vanderZwan
On a meta-level, you could maybe look into articles and such about education
itself, and see if that improves both your own writing, and maybe even weave
in some insights from it:

[http://nautil.us/issue/6/secret-codes/teaching-me-
softly](http://nautil.us/issue/6/secret-codes/teaching-me-softly)

[https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-
learn/](https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn/)

edit: wait, the first one is about _machine_ learning, haha. Sorry, I was
looking through my bookmarks using keywords. Might still be interesting
though..

~~~
jelliclesfarm
I thought about that..but doesn’t education ruin learning?

~~~
vanderZwan
Depends on the style, which is why it's worthwhile to look into it. These
links might also be interesting:

[http://hackeducation.com/archives](http://hackeducation.com/archives)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvgbvtxYRX4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvgbvtxYRX4)

------
gus_massa
My recommendation is to try to focus in topics you grock.

If you live/work/own a farm, try to use your unique knowledge about farm
activities to give some insight in the books. Some topics (I hope some of them
may be interesting.):

* artificial selection / selective breeding

* chemistry composition of the soil and fertilizers

* irrigation? (natural and artificial) (I'm not sure there is some interesting story here, but perhaps you can think one.)

* Lake freezing (Where is your farm?)

* solar/wind/gasoline electricity power generation.

* crop rotation?

* pollination (do you rent bees?)

* different kind of wood / material resistance

~~~
jelliclesfarm
I want to separate the human activities from nature’s activities as much as
possible. The farming we do is like an open air factory where we destroy
existing landscape to create a blank slate to grow what we want in straight
rows. I could bring up soil science or soil biomes.

~~~
apocalypstyx
Even then the distinction isn't so cut and dry.

[https://modernfarmer.com/2014/04/meet-earths-oldest-
farmers-...](https://modernfarmer.com/2014/04/meet-earths-oldest-farmers-
ants/)

[https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/how-ants-
becam...](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/how-ants-became-
worlds-best-fungus-farmers-180962871/)

------
khrbrt
I'm not a writer, so I can't give advice for _how_ , but for a great example,
you should check out the novel _The Diamond Age_ by Neal Stephenson. The
protagonist is a young girl who finds a "magic" book that is part fairy tale,
part computer science textbook. It seamlessly weaves in allegories for binary
arithmetic, Turing machines, and programming.

I wish I could give a more detailed description, but it's been too many years
since I read it and online summaries focus on other parts of the novel
(there's a lot going on!).

~~~
jelliclesfarm
It is one of my absolute favourite books! Love it! Thanks!

~~~
sonicaa
Have you seen this book of ABCs for babies by Judith Neumann?

[https://bubblin.io/book/abcd-animal-book-by-judith-
neumann/1](https://bubblin.io/book/abcd-animal-book-by-judith-neumann/1)

I thought it might be useful to consider animations over static artwork in
some cases—especially for subjects that are hard to explain without visual
explanations -- like a canvas experiment to explain pendulum motion. Or a
gravitational slingshot or a chapter on optics and lensing.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
Oh!! Thanks for the ideas. All good ones!

------
a-saleh
I would suggest reading more childrens books :)

I just remembered how many children's books my daghter loves are kind-of stem-
adjacent?

We have a book about a forest-bison that is kinda upset that he doesn't
hibrnate during the winter, so he tries to persuade the forest spirits that
help other animals to prepare for winters rest to help him as well. When he
fails, he decides, he will do that himself, and strts searching for a nest :)

Or a little book about how a poppy-seed grows.

Or a book about a tale of friendship between a doormouse and a vole, where the
vole is sad he won't have anybody to play with the whole winter, because the
doormouse hibernates.

Or a short book about an islad that has 2 kindoms, each has 3 castles, under
every one 4 cities, in every city 5 houses, in every hous 6 room, in every
room 7 cabinets, in each cabinet 8 boxes. And then it shows a dot for all of
the boxes on a page.

Or a book about a father and his daghter that recieved magic space-suites from
an old wizzard, so they go visit each planet in solar system.

Or two siblings that realize that the ants they have at home know pythagoras
theorem, so they learn to communicate with them.

Or the kid who discovers his weird neghbour actually managed to communicate
with the plants (well, more just their raw emotions?) and then they use this
to help the neglected plants in their back-yard?

I might remember more? :)

~~~
jelliclesfarm
I have the distinct disadvantage of not having any children or even young ones
around me. I guess the child audience I had in mind was myself and the stuff I
wish I learnt then...

~~~
matt_the_bass
Perhaps you could consider writing and adult book that at first glance is
disguised as a children’s book. Then you wouldn’t need proxy kids to judge it.
You could use your own judgement.

------
aristus
Feel free to email me (see profile). I am the author of _Lauren Ipsum_ , a
kid's book about computer science. Happy to help with this.

~~~
WhATiSCaMeLcaSE
Love your book btw. I was scrolling down to see if someone had already
suggested it.

PS. One of my favorite excerpts from Lauren Ipsum: `That's how it starts. A
little Jargon doesn't look like much. Some people even keep them as pets. But
they form packs, and they are very dangerous.`

------
mixmastamyk
When my kid was four, the "why" stage started. Why after why. We found (more
often than I expected) that the final why was often answered with "because of
gravity," which we demonstrated in depth early on.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
I am curious..( and others’ input welcome too in this thread) as I don’t have
kids. Do you explain Death to children?

Also. I wrote a short about 2 birds getting drunk on fermented fall fruits. I
didn’t use the word ‘drunk’but explained their antics(a little comical but
also to explain fermentation and how disorientatation can occur)

My friends were horrified. I didn’t understand why that’s a bad story idea.
Isn’t it actually a good thing rather?...to know about effects of drinking and
‘not to fly when buzzy’(for the scrub jays in the story, of course)..?

Also..it happens in nature all the time. Animals get drunk too from fermented
fruits.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Death: I have explained but follow the guideline not to give too much
information to the child up front. That is, answer their questions simply and
downplay your own potentially emotional reaction.

Drugs: I don't see anything wrong with a simple cause and effect lesson, and
showing that the effect is generally negative in the long term. However,
experience and feelings from past trauma (say family alcoholism) make this a
taboo subject for many folks. You may have to tread so lightly that the lesson
is lost or not worth the aggravation.

~~~
matt_the_bass
Agreed. We discuss death with our young kids if it comes up. And is has in
relation to our food, pets, and loved ones. Maybe we did too good a job. Our 5
year old frequently reminds us that it’s ok for someone/something to die.
“That’s part of nature and we can always keep them in our hearts” She likes
her meat and we try to teach her to respect where the food comes from and that
one should treat the farm animals kindly. We also eat a lot of vegan and
discuss why that is also a good choice.

------
keiferski
Not so much STEM (more accounting), but I'd check out the book _Accounting
Fresh from the Lemonade Stand._ It explains basic accounting concepts via a
simple lemonade stand business. Might give you some inspiration.

~~~
Waterluvian
Why wouldn't accounting be considered a pretty solid part of the M in STEM?
It's applied mathematics and in my opinion one of the better angles to teach
young people maths.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
They learn numbers by watching farmers from a field next door. Which made me
wonder..do animals have a concept of numbers? I had to conclude that they
do..Myrtle Mouse runs the General store and stores food to sell in winter. So
the little mice learn to count pumpkin seeds and acorns etc. I couldn’t go
beyond counting. Unsure as to how to bring in complex math concepts.

~~~
alimw
More to maths than numbers of course... it's been a while but I'm thinking
Alice in Wonderland. or Flatland maybe

~~~
jelliclesfarm
I am just rereading flatland. That would be tough for me.

------
a-saleh
When my daughter was 3 years old, she racted really well to stories that
described sort of ecology. I.e. we watched together one of the how-to-train-
your-dragon cartoons on netflix, and she really liked the stories where
several fragons had either symbiotic or adversarial relationships. Dragons as
a pecies in HTTYD make no sense, but many of the relationships do (symbiotic
relationships, food-chains, migration for better nesting space, e.t.c.) and
served as good conversation starters :)

~~~
jelliclesfarm
I am into imaginary creatures! I draw a lot from Japanese yokai. I adore those
creatures.

------
swframe2
STEM evolved to answer questions about our world. You could just give those
questions to your characters and have them work out the answers the way humans
did.

For example: How do we know the world is round? Why can't we jump into outer
space? Why is the sun so warm? Why do animals breath air? How are birds able
to fly? Every thing we experience in life has an interesting STEM answer that
most kids would love to know. Please try to get kids to realize that they
should be a lot more curious.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
Yes..there are a few question/answer segments in the Crows’ chapter. They hold
a parliament every day where young crows can ask older crows questions.

Like..Why is thunder loud? Why is the sky blue? Why does the sunflower always
face the sun?

Also..more philosophical questions like why the mighty oak has small acorns
that fall but the creeping pumpkin vine that needs support have giant
pumpkins? I didn’t know why nature designs so!!! But I too would love to know
why...writing these made me look up stuff because I didn’t know as well. There
was opportunity to explain gravity as well as concepts like size vs scale.

------
mncharity
You might enjoy the first "How to remember sizes" section of this my page[1]
(very slowwwwly loading - it wasn't intended to be public). The
microview/nanoview pair of story frames provide a tangible context for
handling things down to atoms, with or without numbers. Though, "barely tested
implies barely works".

[1]
[http://www.clarifyscience.info/part/Atoms](http://www.clarifyscience.info/part/Atoms)

~~~
jelliclesfarm
Thanks!! Size/Scale is something I have just started to write about and
wondering how to weave a narrative around it.

------
matt_the_bass
This is a cool idea. Are you familiar with the early 90s indie band “They
Might Be Giants”? Well they are parents now and have been making kids music.
Our favorite is “here comes Science!” They did a great job discussing lots of
STEM subjects ina fun way.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
I know the group (and horrified that they are ‘dated’ which makes me
ancient!). I will look them up on YouTube! Thanks!

~~~
matt_the_bass
Let us know what you think. I really like the sun songs. Try to listen to them
in order.

------
gpm
Basically just an idle thought after reading this: I wonder if you could do
something with lensing/water droplets/telescopes/night skies. Using water
droplets would seem to fit the insect/small animal theme.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
Thank you..that’s a great idea..first thing that came to my mind was surface
tension and how water drops are formed..maybe a game involving water droplets!

~~~
murkle
Rainbows

------
DanBC
One thing I'd love to see is a description of the scientific method. We come
up with an idea, then we come up with an experiment to test that idea.

~~~
mncharity
And surrounding scientific inquiry, is scientific discourse, which is now
taught even down towards K. Eg, don't chose among widely-differing jellybean
counts based on friendship.

Apropos children and verification, while looking for something to point to, I
stumbled on and enjoyed the introduction section of
[https://mindmodeling.org/cogsci2018/papers/0062/0062.pdf](https://mindmodeling.org/cogsci2018/papers/0062/0062.pdf)
, fwiw.

------
sideshowb
Another one to Google for inspiration is Lauren Ipsum, a child's story about
computer science

~~~
jelliclesfarm
Thanks. I just learnt about the book!

------
tigerlily
> magical spells

> STEM topics

I often find the juxtaposition of these two themes unbearable, if only because
it reflects the world we live in today. Magic beliefs give way to true love
and romance, but also igorance and disasterous concentrations of political
power. STEM beliefs give rise to incredible technology and a world of
convenience, but also lead to awful environmental consequences owing to
extreme resource use and pollution, and possibly amplify differences in
economic inequality.

Friend, if you can weave a children's story around the nuanced interplay of
science and magic, then I will buy your book.

P.S. have you read the Moomin books?

~~~
leggomylibro
I disagree; for one thing, how many books where magic exists fail to run into
awful environmental consequences, extreme income inequality, and strife like
war or political instability? It depends on the story, but it'd be tough to
read the Lord of the Rings series and think, 'I bet that ring could have
magically fixed everything'.

Also, kids aren't stupid and eventually they figure this out: "Ninety percent
of most magic merely consists of knowing one extra fact." Then they just need
to work out those facts.

Have you read _Off to Be the Wizard_ or _A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur
's Court_? I wouldn't call them children's stories, but maybe young adult.

~~~
HarryHirsch
_how many books where magic exists fail to run into awful environmental
consequences, extreme income inequality, and strife like war or political
instability?_

For a refreshing and deeply pessimistic take on these issues Jonathan Stroud's
Bartimæus books are recommended.

