

On Extroverted Programmers - orjan
http://www.gregerwikstrand.com/blog/2011/09/15/extroverted-programmers/

======
alinajaf
At university I spent the vast majority of my time getting drunk, doing drugs
and chasing girls. I then took the show on the road and did more or less the
same thing in Japan for s few years. There was absolutely nothing introverted
about those five years. I made a ton of friends, got into lots of excellent
adventures and generally had a good time.

Fast forward a few years and I'm a mid to senior level developer. I'm
surrounded by socially, how can I put this this, 'challenging' people. I
realized however that after enough time doing this, it's rubbed off on me. I
have difficulty making small-talk, making new friends and being sociable.

In my case at least, my 'introversion/extroversion' factor is variable. When
I'm jobhunting or marketing or looking for my next project, I'm in 'extrovert'
mode. If I'm heads-down programming then I find it much more difficult to deal
with human beings.

As an aside, I have serious misgivings about MBTI, not least because I took
the test once every month for three months and got different results! It
appears to be 'horrorscopes for smart people', or a convoluted wizard for
selecting your character class in the big RPG of life.

~~~
acangiano
> not least because I took the test once every month for three months and got
> different results!

That's interesting, I had the opposite experience. I must have taken the test
5 times over the years, and I got ENTP every time. I didn't expect it to be
the case, but I was surprised by its precision.

~~~
eftpotrm
Surely the answer there is that it depends on your exact scores?

Each factor won't be a clear binary but a continuum between the two. Your
answers will depend on mood, sure, but will also give a result on that
continuum and with a margin for error.

You might've got ENTP consistently. I've had both INTP and ESTJ in fairly
quick succession without any intention to mislead. The idea that the test is
anywhere near perfect, foolproof and likely to produce absolutely consistent
results for all appears unsupported by anecdotal evidence here.

~~~
acangiano
> Surely the answer there is that it depends on your exact scores?

Absolutely. I just wanted to provide an anecdotal counterexample, given that
my experience was opposite to the one of the original commenter.

------
skrebbel
Another theory: the survey was done among _Cuban_ software engineers. Now, I
know terribly little about Cuba, but I do know that in some Eastern European
countries, computer science is a very popular subject because programmers are
in demand. Thus, becoming a programmer is a relatively sure-fire road to a
decent career and a decent income.

ExTJ types, maybe more than any other, may be very prone to carefully plan
their careers as a matter of course, and listen less to what they _want_ to do
most, deep inside. So if Cuba is anything like Eastern Europe, this could
explain a large amount of ExTJ types in programming

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jeffreymcmanus
People: Stop using Myers-Briggs to measure anything. It is an unscientific
test, developed by someone with no formal training in psychology. Its results
are not replicable (the same person is likely to get different results if you
take the same test on different days). It is the same kind of pseudo-science
as astrology.

Worse, employers have been sued for giving this to their employees and sharing
the results among their co-workers. This is bad juju, seriously.

~~~
gruseom
Hey, I'm fond of Myers-Briggs. It's useful, fun, and meaningful. It helps
resolve interpersonal difficulties. It stimulates conversation. As for
measuring, I'm always interested to see survey data on it. Way more than that
other boring test I can't ever remember the name of and which I'm told is much
more empirical.

Just because something isn't a law of nature is no reason to suppress it. Lots
of things we care about are unscientific. Besides, what's considered
"scientific" changes over time. (Remember when brain cells "couldn't"
regenerate? "Junk" DNA, anyone?)

Let a thousand flowers bloom!

~~~
jeffreymcmanus
You could say all of those things about astrology.

There are great reasons to suppress pseudo-science, but the first and foremost
reason is that it isn't true.

~~~
gruseom
What about old science? Is that true? When scientists told women to give their
babies "formula" in the 1960s instead of breast-feeding them, was that true?
Or do you retroactively label it pseudo-science? It certainly had the blessing
of the authorities (edit: the scientific authorities) at the time. What about
the dietary fat hypothesis, currently falling apart after generations of being
such dogma that people lost their jobs for questioning it? When did it go from
being scientific to unscientific?

My point is that these boundaries are not nearly crisp and stable enough to
bear your level of judgmentalism.

I'm guessing that in Myers-Briggs lingo, you're a J. I'm an extreme P. These
two don't get along sometimes. Also, I'm an Aquarius.

~~~
jeffreymcmanus
I label it, and you, wrong. You seem pretty OK with that. Remind me never to
hire you.

------
nithinag
How many of you think many Introverts may not have participated in the MBTI
test conducted?

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espeed
I was thinking about this the other day because I realized that I had shifted
from an extrovert to an introvert in less than six months, and that I have
gone through periods of my life in one state or the other.

Right now I'm working intensely on a project, and I'm basically living inside
my head, totally consumed with what I'm working on. But last year I took the
year off and socialized, basically gearing up for what I'm working on now.

But I couldn't just pop back to that extroverted state from my present state
of mind. It would be a process, and I would have to transition into it. This
got me thinking -- what if people who see themselves as complete introverts
are that way just because that's all they know?

~~~
nvarsj
Guess what, you're probably an extrovert. :-) Introverts recognize they are
introverts and that being extroverted is draining no matter how much they do
it.

I've known very-obvious extroverts who would talk about "being an introvert"
at some time in their life - when it was really them either suffering from
shyness or being extremely preoccupied with something. Extroverts seem to have
a tough time understanding introverts.

------
namank
MBTI is a measure of you _preference_. E/I, S/N, F/T, J/P are all preferences.
Of course you can switch to the other side. What happens when introverts need
to speak publicly? Or when extroverts need that moment of silence to think
things through? This test is essentially a filter for your natural
inclinations.

Not being relaxed or in a stable state of mind may affect the test's outcome.
If you are stressed about a project or super pumped from your trip to Europe,
your test will give different results.

Then there is the pop culture influence. Some people may not answer a question
correctly because the answer isn't socially sound or in sync with their
impression of themselves.

Though online tests are OK to start with; the results should be verified by
talking to an MBTI practitioner.

I personally find this MBTI system very helpful in studying myself and people
around me. But its true, you need to read up on it before you can start making
comments about the test and the theory behind it. It has a lot more
intricacies than meet the eye.

It would be very interesting to see the makeup of HNers. Go take the test at
<http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp> then read up the description
on <http://www.personalitypage.com/html/portraits.html>. See if it matches
with your impressions of self. If not, try to switch one of the letters and
read up that description.

------
andrewingram
INFP here. I do my best programming when I'm learning something new, or
tackling a problem when I'm certain I'm heading towards the best solution.

As soon as I feel like what I'm being asked to do isn't the right way to do
things, I get extremely demotivated and distracted. This means that in my case
I have more chance of hitting a deadline if I'm following the "idealistic"
path even if it is considerably more complicated than the straightforward
path.

Unfortunately, this is hard in the real world, so I'm having to train myself
to be more disciplined at work.

------
Kurtz79
"In my experience engineering jobs are all about working with people."

I completely agree. In my relatively short (four years) but intense (four
jobs, in four different countries) engineering/programming career I still
haven't been in a situation where social interaction wasn't a daily
requirement in order to do a good job.

At the very least you must be able to interact successfully with your fellow
programmers, and your boss. Without being confident in your relationship with
them, everything becomes more difficult, asking for help, helping someone,
providing feedback, admitting mistakes and getting acknowledgment for a job
well done.

In a large or very well organized company it might be the end of your social
commitment, but in a good part of them you are likely to deal sporadically
with customers, engineers from other companies, production, sales, technical
support.

If you get to be known as "that guy", if you get to be known at all,
promotions and raises become almost impossible to achieve, and in hard times
you'll be the first in line waiting for the axe to fall.

Of course I'm talking in my experience, I have no doubt that there are
companies where introverts can thrive. But is it to their (ours) benefit ?

I have been an introvert all my life, and getting a job helped me in being
more open (in a "sink or swim" way) even more than making me a better
engineer.

------
Goladus
GIFA here. German/Irish/French-American. I find that knowledge just as useful
and relevant to daily life as knowing into which personality box the MBTI
sorting hat places me.

------
wlsimmons
Myers-Briggs is derided by psychologists because 1) it is typographical, 2)
the theory behind the test is based on unproven cognitive processes called
functions; these are completely speculative, and 3) borderline personalities
are inconsistently typed because the types are dichotomous.

On the other hand, Myers-Briggs does have some merit. Most psych professionals
actively endorse the Big Five personality assessment. Based on trait theory,
the Big Five is empirically valid, though somewhat theoretically sparse.
Here's the rub, 4/5 Big Five traits correlate very strongly with the Myers-
Briggs letters. E/I to Extroversion, T/F to Agreeably, J/P to
Conscientiousness, and S/N, albeit weaker, to Openness. Myers-Briggs doesn't
have a measure of Neuroticism(the fifth Big Five trait). So while the actual
type combinations are unscientific, the test is still based on personality
distinctions that have been researched and supported by the psych community.

Also, personality tests measure tendencies, please don't use exceptions to
explain away your personality. Yes, personality is somewhat situation, great.
Yes, Myers-Briggs isn't "science," but it is still a useful tool.

------
skrebbel
> _Varona et al. hypothesize that the shift towards more extroverted
> personality types is caused by a need for ever more collaboration among
> engineers._

I don't believe this. Since when did a person's interest get determined by the
need for a particular kind of skill or personality?

26% in a single MBTI type mostly suggests to me that the sample was too small
or the research was set up badly.

~~~
wccrawford
Job positions select for personality types by whether or not that personality
type is generally successful at the job. If a job needs someone who is
outgoing and reaches out to others constantly, it's going to tend to select
for extroverts, and a job that asks people to work alone for long stretches is
going to tend to select for introverts.

Not that I believe the results either. I suspect they are fatally flawed in
some respect, since most of the programmers I've met have been introverts.
(Someone else noted that the study was only among Cubans, for instance.)

------
jwingy
...and the rise of the brogrammer?

<https://www.facebook.com/getwiththebrogram>

~~~
simondlr
Jokes aside, I really like the 'brogramming' ethos. I feel it really embodies
'balance' in life.

As the slogan puts it: "Rage at the codebase, rage at the gym, rage at the
club". Programming is very much a logical and intellectual endeavour. One has
to be creative, yet logically inclined. So on thise side, your mental
capabilities are constantly being challenged.

Staying healthy is also an important, hence 'rage at the gym'.

And then finally 'rage at the club' to me implies you have to loosen up, enjoy
life and do things the body wants, not the brain. In other words, not be stuck
in programming mode all day.

~~~
lurker19
"Rage" is not really the embodiment of balance.

------
rjd
ENTP here, arch type for inventor. 2% seems like a low value, although about
the normal for entire population sets from memory.

Theres been a few articles here recently on the subject, but being naturally
prone to creative and innovative ideas generally doesn't go down well in risk
adverse IT departments/teams (let alone business in general if the articles
are to believed). So I've grown to not enjoy working in IT teams.

I no longer class myself as a programmer after 15 years of it, and am now self
employed.

------
namank
This study does a better job of correlating software developers and
personality types

<http://www.wtst.org/2011/WTST2011CapretzPaperv2.pdf>

------
orjan
Another reason for showing more extrovertedness is that the general public has
become more aware of what programmers actually do.

------
maeon3
Making friends can be turned into an algorithm for processing inside the
programmer mind.

Read this 2 or 3 times and do everything it tells you to do, and you'll have
people going out of their way to be your friend.

[http://www.amazon.com/Likeability-Factor-L-Factor-Achieve-
Dr...](http://www.amazon.com/Likeability-Factor-L-Factor-Achieve-
Dreams/dp/1400080495)

I got the audiobook on this and listened to it twice 6 months ago, I've been
following the rules religiously, and my emotional intelligence and personal
likability has skyrocketed. I have people who I know who's faces light up
(male and female) when they see me and are eager to see me again. They don't
know I'm running an elaborate algorithm to do exactly that, and can turn it
off as quickly as I turn it on. Learning the basic syntax and procedures are
for maintaining loyal close friends is easier than learning Programming.

~~~
lurker19
A Myers Briggs xxTJ will be deeply offended that the wrong L is highlighted on
the book cover.

