

Rodents exhibit empathy by setting trapped friends free - dclaysmith
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/336819/title/He%E2%80%99s_no_rat%2C_he%E2%80%99s_my_brother

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anateus
I understand "empathy" to mean the ability to feel someone's
emotions/pain/etc. What this demonstrates is that rats will go to another
rat's aid, and nothing about their internal models for doing so.

It is oversimplifying to say something like "oh it's helping the other rat for
selfish reason X", but it is equally misleading to apply human models of mind,
which we have due to our unique ability to introspect and share that
introspection with other members of our species.

Models such as kin selection (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection>)
attempt to explain altruism within an evolutionary model, but even if there is
a totally different cause for this particular altruistic behavior (and even if
it is shown to be almost wholly altruistic, rather than just indirectly self-
beneficial, assuming such a distinction exists), there are very few grounds to
assume _empathy_.

The most interesting result to me is that the rats demonstrate distress at
seeing the suffering, and cease upon release. But before talking about empathy
again, we must show that the distress is its own separate thing
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voight-Kampff_test#Voight-
Kampf...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voight-Kampff_test#Voight-
Kampff_machine)) rather than mere frustration at failed attempts of rescue.

So, sure, we've learned _something_ , but I don't think we've demonstrated
_empathy_.

~~~
teyc
There was a time when explorers observed a primitive tribe exhibiting empathy
or even morality might exert the same kind of hand-wringing as you did about
whether it is actually so.

~~~
bpd1069
Same thing happened with chimps and the discovery of tool use. Jane Goodall
was met by the same resistance. It is a characteristic, I would assume of the
social organism as a whole. We have a lot in common with our little burrowing
social friends. Empathy being one of them.

Altruism is also indicated by leaving the sweets for the trapped rat.

Im not a neuroscientist, but I can guess the mirror neurons are at play.

~~~
mc32
I think what they try to avoid is anthropomorphization. It's not a good idea
to make assumptions that assume human-like characteristics -else we end up
with cartoons.

It's not to say that animals are incapable, but such assumptions cannot be
made without the insight being held suspect.

~~~
teyc
Much has advanced in science since. We now know the role of various hormones
and chemicals that influence our emotions. Oxytocin, adrenaline, etc. The
trick to get out of anthropomorphization is to avoid being human-centric when
making the observations. i.e. put on an alien hat and observe human behavior
the way we might observe animal behavior, and then based on that say that one
acts in a similar way to the other, and reason they may have similar
motivations.

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tzs
That doesn't necessarily show empathy. In a dangerous environment, for
instance, it can be better to have others around to lessen your individual
risk. It could be freeing the trapped rat in the hope that when the big nasty
humans come back they will pick the other rat.

~~~
finnw
Wouldn't your individual risk be lessened by leaving the other rat trapped, so
that it is easy prey and more likely to get picked?

~~~
tzs
Maybe. On the other hand, the trapped rat might be safer as a predator might
not be able to get into the cage.

There are plenty of possible ways things could work out. For instance, if the
rats have figured out that the humans can identify individual rats and treat
them different (which they might figure out if the humans have done several
kinds of experiments on the same rats because each experiment would have a
control group that gets different treatment), the rat outside might think "the
humans but this other rat in the cage--if I let it out, then when they come
back they'll be distracted putting it back in, and might leave me alone".

Or maybe it would be good to let the other rat out so that if danger arrives,
you can go hide in the cage.

Or it could make sense to have the other rat out so that the two of you can
more quickly explore the environment and find a way to escape.

The main point is that you can't really attribute letting the other rat out to
empathy, as there are many other possible explanations for why a rat might let
another rat out.

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themgt
Alternate title: Study finds humans selectively block their empathy towards
some fellow mammals

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ajays
I am continuously amused by how humans get in a huff when people
anthropmorphize animals' actions... "surely it can't be empathy!" ... "we
don't know if the rat is _really_ feeling the trapped rat's pain!!"

The question is: why not? Who are we to say that rats (or dogs or cats or
crows or elephants or . . . ) can't feel another's pain?

Dogs have been known to show emotion. Elephants have been known to show
emotion. Chimp mothers express sorrow when their child dies. And so on.

But people will come up with contorted explanations for these phenomena: dogs
must 'smell' some pheromone that triggers such behavior... chimp mothers are
only grieving because it's loss of a valuable tribe resource ... or things to
those effect.

You know what? Believe what you will. But I have seen more empathy coming from
animals than some humans (see Dick Cheney).

~~~
webnrrd2k
I agree. Animals feeling emotions is one of those things that I believe, but
can't prove. It just strikes me as another version of the "humans are the
center of the univese" theory. Also, it's hard for me to believe that nature
hasn't come up with emotions before humans evolved. I'm not saying I
understand it very well, but the major brain structures responsible for
emotion go back fairly far along the evolutionary tree.

Lastly, I just have trouble believing that what I see with my own eyes isn't
emotion.

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moocow01
The easier way to determine if humans are the only species who have empathy...

Talk to any dog owner.

~~~
finnw
All that will tell you is that humans will anthropomorphize anything.

I would agree with the dog owner, but then you sometimes hear owners of non-
social animals (e.g. snakes, octopuses) claiming their pets have empathy. A
few people even claim their _cars_ have empathy.

~~~
ComputerGuru
My car loves me. I'm serious, it's like it knows that I take really good care
of it and try not to overwork it when I can. You should see how it responds to
my touch far better than any one else's when I'm driving it in the mountains
or in inclement conditions.

I can tell when it's happy because it's purring, and when it's working too
hard it groans and squeals instead. It lets me know when its hungry (oil
change indicator), thirsty (windshield wiper indicator), sick (service needed
indicator), or just plain out of breath (low tire pressure indicator).

I don't understand how some people can be so cruel and say that it can't think
and feel for itself. They think just because a human built the machine that
built this car, that they're automatically superior to it. They just won't
take the time to listen.

I used to be like that, but one time... I killed a car. It was by accident and
I really didn't mean to do it, but the sounds it was making when it was dying;
oh god, the sounds. You would know cars can feel and understand if you heard
them.

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orthecreedence
My god, other animals besides us have the capacity for empathy. I thought
humans were the only creatures in the universe that had the potential for
emotion or intelligence. Mind blowing.

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dimitar
Very interesting page on rat social behavior:
[http://www.ratbehavior.org/norway_rat_ethogram.htm#SocialBeh...](http://www.ratbehavior.org/norway_rat_ethogram.htm#SocialBehavior)

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duck
I set a mouse trap yesterday morning and last night went to check on it. The
mouse that was caught in it was pretty much gone from being eaten by another
mouse (which I'm guessing is the one that I caught this morning). I guess
nobody told them about this study.

~~~
burgerbrain
Mice are pretty much just herbivores. I think you might something other than
just mice to worry about...

~~~
dimitar
I think he meant that the mouse was eaten by a rat. Rats are much bigger and
hunt, kill and eat the similar but smaller mice.

In fact there is a term for it: muricide.

Rats also practice infanticide.

So, yeah rodent morality is also complex.

~~~
duck
No, it was just another mouse. My original comment wasn't very clear, but I
saw it running away when I came to check on the trap. My wife thought that was
really gross, but then I reminded her of the time that we saw a seagull eating
another smaller seagull while it was still alive and still walking. That
topped everything I've seen.

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MichaelApproved
Video showing the rodents in action [http://www.newsy.com/mobile/video/study-
rats-show-each-other...](http://www.newsy.com/mobile/video/study-rats-show-
each-other-compassion-empathy/)

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logn
maybe less empathy and more, hey you can help me

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zeroboy
My question is: why don't we show more empathy towards animals? The
experimentations and vivisections, urban sprawl and deforestation, the
abandonment of pets when they become inconvenient - we as humans don't
consider the cruelty of our actions.

We figure as long as it can be profited from or paved over, it's justifiable.
It's not.

One day mankind will grieve because of the suffering we have caused animals.
But by then it will be too late.

~~~
thret
Why do we show any empathy towards animals? You can't kill and eat something
you empathise with. Empathy towards humans makes sense but I don't see the
evolutionary advantage of treasuring all life.

That said, I can't even kill spiders. It doesn't make any sense but I've an
unavoidable feeling of guilt if I don't release them outside unharmed. Yet I
have no problem eating meat. My empathy is irrational.

~~~
icebraining
"When one man dies it is a tragedy, when thousands die it's statistics." -
Stalin (not confirmed).

Empathy is irrational, since it relies on identification with the other being.
It's always easier to identify oneself with a living being than to a piece of
meat.

On the other hand, it's also very rational; it's a much better strategy than
if it was guided by pure knowledge, since it optimizes cooperation: otherwise,
you'd either be completely indifferent to someone you can actually help (e.g.
injured person near you) or live in mental anguish by the fact that you know
that thousands are constantly being killed by wars, curable diseases, etc.

~~~
rcthompson
The only actual source I've ever seen for that Stalin quote was the fictional
Stalin from the computer game Command and Conquer: Red Alert. Is this quote
actually attributed to the real Stalin? Has the quote been floating around
since before 1995 or so, when that game was released?

~~~
ctchocula
Wikiquotes has a segment on this quote.[1] It's uncertain whether Stalin said
it to Truman at the Potsdam conference, or whether the quote was actually said
by someone else and misattributed to Stalin, but it is certain that the game
designers didn't make it up for C&C: Red Alert.

[1] <http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Misattributed>

