
Ask HN: How do you feel about backchannel communications for engineering teams? - shatteredvisage
Hi!<p>On the teams I&#x27;ve worked on, I&#x27;ve usually always been part of a public Slack channel (with managers, product, designers, various stakeholders) and a private slack channel which is only engineers.<p>1.) I think the private channel makes people more likely to ask the &quot;dumb questions&quot;, be more frank, and generally more communicative: do you agree?<p>2.) Should engineering managers be part of the private channel?<p>In general, I&#x27;m curious what HN thinks about this paradigm!
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sethammons
I'm generally in favor of it. Whether to include your manager or not is up to
the team dynamic. On our team, absolutely (she used to be a dev on the team,
then the team lead, then the team manager).

What I've seen in our own "private" room is that the list of invitees has
grown and now some folks with power but not context have gotten into the room.
I feel that their confidence in our team has dropped due to them seeing "dumb"
questions (things like, "hey, does anyone know how such-n-such-critical-
component work?" with responses like, "doesn't it do blah?" "no, it does blah
blah ... I think. Don't recall."

We previously had a public room and a private room for chat. But with the
private room having some important folks now, I'm not sure we can just kick
them out. We might need a private-private room.

Thanks for the question, it reminded me to have this conversation with my
manager (as we would want her in the private-private room, but want her
blessing and input - maybe she is fine telling the others to leave).

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brianmcc
"folks with power but not context" is a great phrase!

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dajohnson89
Having a dedicated channel for engineers seems like a necessity. And it's
important to keep non-engineers out of it, due to points raised by
/u/sethammons.

As an engineer I want to be comfortable asking questions that are too
technical for the general audience. And to ask them without fear of the
managers thinking I'm an idiot (and yes, managers/non-engineers do come to
that conclusion if you ask a question that they feel that every engineer
should know, even if they're nowhere near to being in a position to make that
judgement).

Besides just factual knowledge-sharing, there needs to be a place where
engineers can complain, celebrate, swear, and say whatever comes to their
mind. The general/main channel doesn't allow for that.

And sure, engineering managers can be in the channel, so long as they don't
throw their weight around and keep the tone informal. I.e., don't use
something that an engineer said in that channel against him, or put anything
in a negative light. Basically, the more informal the side channel, the better
and healthier. If people can't shoot the shit freely, negativity will build up
and toxic patterns WILL emerge.

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brianmcc
It's vital to have a "safe space" channel where people can ask questions
without judgement, or worries about looking bad to management or people who
have some say in their promotions, bonus, project assignments, etc.

Also important for "Widget X might be broken folks, do we have a problem?"
triaging without inviting premature noise, especially given some such concerns
will be false positives.

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matt_the_bass
With all due respect to the other answers in other threads, it sounds to me
that there is a toxic company culture if employees feel they need a “private”
slack channel where they can post work appropriate messages without reprisal.
I understand that a single dev can’t always fix the underlying problem and
sometimes needs to focus on mitigating a symptom. But should the question
really be “what can we do to fix the company culture”?

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idunno246
I’m surprised that people want private channels so much. Most teams I’m on
have been public only, and it’s never been an issue. Even private messages are
frowned upon, better to have input from others. It’s especially annoying if
someone from another team is asking for help but the context is hidden behind
a wall.

And outside of engineering they generally self select out of the channel. Or
we trust that the people we work with to understand that they aren’t the
intended audience in those channels - they’re still welcome but usually don’t
contribute.

~~~
matt_the_bass
Same here. We also have quiet offices with no more than 2 people per room for
our devs. Maybe it’s no surprise we have a strong company culture.

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JamesLeonis
Make a private IRC channel. It's a pretty hardcore technical filter, but such
are the times.

> [...] employers of the 1960s regarded programmers as unmanageable, citing
> contemporary sources that branded programmers as "prima donnas" who were
> "arrogant," "egocentric," and devoid of social skills.

> [...] a manager at IBM and Diebold bemoaned the fact that programmers'
> labor-market power undermined "the normal employer-employee relationship,
> which, in part, depends on the fear of termination or disciplinary action."

> Weinberg, who managed large software projects at IBM [...], argued that
> software was produced most effectively in egalitarian teams that emphasized
> open communication among members. [... He] contrasted his approach with what
> he saw as the macho attitude of many managers: "Managers tend to select
> themselves from the 'aggressive' component of society... They are especially
> at a loss to understand the smooth functioning of a programming group based
> on mutual respect for individual talent and cooperation in the common
> cause."

Janet Abbate - Recoding Gender, p93-95

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pmiller2
The “normal employer-employee relationship” still “in part, depends on the
fear of termination....” What has changed?

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HashHishBang
The fear part most likely. Depending on what year the quote is from there's a
chance that they literally couldn't find a replacement for a programmer. Or
want to soak the costs of training one on the job.

Nowadays a lot of developers I know, myself included, work where they do
because they like it and it pays somewhat better than the other guys. If I
lose my job oh well. I'll throw out my resume, take a week off, and there's a
good chance I'll have another job.

It isn't that it won't suck, but it's not going to cripple me or really
interrupt my life. The question of "Are they going to fire me?" becomes kind
of a joke.

~~~
pmiller2
In my experience, the “I’ll just find a new job in a week “ meme is
overstated. It takes longer than a week to get to an onsite interview in my
experience. Sometimes it’s even longer.

~~~
HashHishBang
Admittedly yes, especially in the current market but it does illustrate the
reasoning behind the quote. The shift in labor-market power of developers is
undeniable. Realistically it would take me closer to a month from search to
first day if I was jumping at the first opportunity. I've certainly known
people with a broad enough network and in-demand skills who could land one in
a week or two however.

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finaliteration
On my team we have a “dev” Slack channel which is public and a “dev_private”
channel which is private. The former includes managers/stakeholders and is
almost exclusively for providing status updates and raising critical issues
that need manager input.

The latter is fairly locked down and limited to only the dev team, and it’s
where we troubleshoot together, ask dumb questions, and chat about work in
general. Having it definitely makes working through certain issues feel much
“safer” without risking looking like we don’t know what we are doing to
management (though whether or not I know what I’m doing is debatable).

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AnimalMuppet
We had a project where we had a remote team of contractors doing some of the
lower-level work. Our engineering manager finally said: Look, I need my own
weekly call with their engineers. Managers can listen if they want to, but
it's _our_ call. It was amazing how quickly things got solved when it was just
engineers talking to engineers, without business people or politics.

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quickthrower2
I'd be up for no Slack channels at all, but I'm just old schoool. I find Slack
quite distracting.

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halis
I think it's fine to have a private channel for developers. If nothing else,
it will give you a place to discuss technical problems without all the other
noise.

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sitepodmatt
A lot of context can be lost in 1 to 1s, however it doesn't mean they can't
exist. Often I'll say let's take this to #dev so a) stakeholders are involved
b) it's not just a line item on an invoice. If we're just talking shit or
having a moan then 1 to 1 is fine

