
Update: We Will Replace Your Logitech Harmony Links - dhbanes
http://blog.logitech.com/2017/11/09/update-will-replace-logitech-harmony-links/
======
mixologic
If you sell a device that relies on an external service to function, then you
are no longer in the hardware business, you are in the services business, and
should sell the _service_ as such.

Likewise, if you are a consumer and buying a physical device that needs an
upstream service, you dont really own, or really even need to own the device.
What you really want is the value the device brings, without any of the
headaches that go along with devices becoming obsolete.

Logitech is so used to selling hardware products that they didn't realize that
they became a service provider as soon as their Harmony Link required
connectivity. They should not be marketing or selling _devices_ , despite
their history of being a physical product vendor. If users had purchased a
"Harmony Link" service agreement, and Logitech was responsible for keeping
their users devices up to date and functioning with their service, then nobody
would complain.

Cable companies figured this out a _long_ time ago. When was the last time
anyone had to care about cable modem or set top boxes being deprecated? The
cable companies have always sold the _service_ , and the hardware was either
rentable, or, sometimes, provided by the consumer, but always with the
understanding that the hardware wasnt why people bought cable.

I've avoided any of these connected home hardware specifically because the
manufacturers try and push ownership to the consumers. As soon as its the
service providers responsibility to ensure the devices are secure and work
with their service, I'll sign right up.

~~~
slewis
Would you pay a monthly fee for a remote?

~~~
gwbas1c
Not really, but I'll buy hardware with a guaranteed service length. For
example, the service is guaranteed for 7 years after activation.

~~~
Dylan16807
Might as well make it 20 years. For something like a remote control you can
fit 100k users on a server, and a little bit of money per device can go an
extremely long way. Extra large ec2 servers (which you can easily do better
than on cost) are about a thousand dollars a year, and you only need a few
hours of sysadmin work per month across the entire fleet.

And you can cut servers as people end up using devices less on their own.

------
AdmiralAsshat
There was apparently a period of time following the announcement on the
Logitech forum where the words "class action lawsuit" were being censored as
profanity.

My guess would be the company lawyers told them they were digging themselves
into a very deep hole, and that replacing the Harmony Links would be the
_least_ damaging / expensive option.

~~~
detcader
And yet folks stress how much we need to put moderators at Facebook, Twitter
etc in charge of determining what is acceptable political speech on their
platforms beyond existing legal requirements...

~~~
VectorLock
Repeating cycle of "medium gains mass acceptance from open and unmoderated
communication, somebody starts to abuse system, people call for moderation."

------
kevin_b_er
Lesson 1: Don't buy stuff like this that depends on an online component to
locally control your electronics. Lesson 2: Don't buy Logitech, as they make
the things from lesson 1. The new hub is the same as the old hub and will
probably break once they get tired of its online service too.

~~~
sliverstorm
Sadly there is a lot of truly great stuff you'll miss out on, if you
rigorously apply Lesson 1. My smart sprinkler controller and thermostat are
examples.

(Needless phone-home stuff is another matter, all the risk with no value add)

~~~
ryandrake
Why does a sprinkler system or a thermostat need a backing Internet service? I
can see an Internet _connection_ , receive-only for remote control, but why
would they need to transmit anything out of the home to a hosted service?

~~~
sliverstorm
A variety of reasons; for example, the ubiquity of NAT plus the use of sleep
modes means it's painful to get smartphone apps to talk _directly_ to the
hardware in question. Far easier _and_ more reliable to have a hosted
intermediary.

Additionally, the thermostat supports demand-response features (where your
utility shuts off the thermostat), and can even pre-warm or pre-cool before
the demand-response event as needed. The sprinkler controller checks the
weather and works out optimal scheduling. Both receive regular firmware
updates, and feed telemetrics back to the company for further improvement of
their firmware.

Technically all of this could be done independent of their own hosted service,
such that everything would still run normally without it. But there's a lot of
connected features, and integrating a centralized hosted service simply makes
everything far easier to develop.

At which point keeping a centralized service out of the equation becomes a
feature requiring money & manpower to develop- a feature most customers don't
care about, at that. (And let's be honest, what company wants to spend their
energy on a future where they are out of business?)

------
osteele
Last year's version of this story featured Nest in the role of Logitech, and
Revolv in the role of Link. It ended with refunds to Revolv owners [5].

[1] "Nest's Hub Shutdown Proves You're Crazy to Buy Into the Internet of
Things", Kint Finley, Wired, 15 Mar 16. [https://www.wired.com/2016/04/nests-
hub-shutdown-proves-your...](https://www.wired.com/2016/04/nests-hub-shutdown-
proves-youre-crazy-buy-internet-things/)

[2] "What Nest's Product Shutdown Says about the Internet of Things",
Christina Warren, 4 Apr 2016 Mashable. [http://mashable.com/2016/04/04/revolv-
smart-home-shutdown/#0...](http://mashable.com/2016/04/04/revolv-smart-home-
shutdown/#02WJZKAr8sqb)

[3] "Nest's Meager Response To Revolv Users Falls Short", Aaron Pressman,
Fortune , 6 Apr 2016. [http://fortune.com/2016/04/06/nest-meager-response-
google-re...](http://fortune.com/2016/04/06/nest-meager-response-google-
revolv/)

[4] "Here's How Google Is Handling a Big Controversy", By Lisa Eadicicco, 6
April 6 2016, Time. [http://time.com/4283408/nest-google-shuts-down-
revolv/](http://time.com/4283408/nest-google-shuts-down-revolv/)

[5] Revolv is now closed. [https://revolv.com](https://revolv.com)

------
shanev
For those looking for an alternate hacker-friendly solution, you can make your
own smart remote with a Raspberry Pi Zero W. I made an IR blaster that
replaced all my IR based remotes [1]. I’m sure you can make one for RF ones as
well. And they’re not too hard to integrate with Amazon Echo or Home Kit.

[1]: [http://www.instructables.com/id/Amazon-Echo-Controlled-IR-
Re...](http://www.instructables.com/id/Amazon-Echo-Controlled-IR-Remote/)

------
j45
I wonder if Logitech will be willing to share of their roadmap and plans for
the Harmony Hub.

It might be fair to presume the security certificates are needed to
communicate with the Logitech cloud and not for the operation of the device
itself, and this product might not be affected if there was no cloud.

Logitech should provide options to keep their existing devices running.

You wouldn't expect a keyboard or a mouse to stop working when software
updates end.

Cloud only connected devices by Logitech have been exposed in this case to
remain at the mercy of Logitech.

"Looking out for users security" could also have been carried out proactively
to communicate the reasons and an exchange program.

Potential solutions:

\- release something open source for users to to handle the back end once a
device is eol

\- update the harmony mobile app to directly update the Harmony Hub on your
local network and not need the Logitech cloud.

\- if the software and possibility exists, load a locally hosted offline first
progressive web app if possible on the hub device itself. The harmony mobile
app at last glance was a Microsoft Silverlight based app so the one codebase
to multiple platform philosophy should not be new.

These type of solutions could allow updates to Logitech's cloud while it's
available, and responsibly allow the devices to survive when Logitech moves
forward.

I just don't want to be buying a Harmony Hub when in fact I'm renting it and
could be turfed at any time. That's a bait and switch, however unintended and
it is probably a fair question for a lot of our cloud connected devices to
answer, not just Logitech.

------
ehPReth
Anyone here work for/with Logitech? I'd love to know the nitty gritty behind
the "encryption certificate expires" PR simplification and why a new one
can't/won't be cut. (sole embedded root expiring? something else?)

~~~
maxaf
Having worked for a flailing IoT startup before, I can tell you that it's not
uncommon for products to ship with TLS certificates, but without any notion of
a PKI or cert management infrastructure that would enable these devices to
keep working in the future. As usual, a rush to launch leads to corners being
cut. Sometimes these arguably crucial pieces are added later; other times,
customers are left holding the bag when renewal of certificates turns out to
be impossible for one reason or another.

~~~
monksy
"MVP"

~~~
nerpderp83
MVP - 1

The update framework is the second thing you figure out and don't cheap out
on.

No in place updates, everything needs dual firmware support with the 0 stage
bootloader in ROM.

~~~
nikanj
Their doodad had all the features. Yours has a really great update framework.
Guess which one gets funded at demo day, or makes it to retail shelves this
christmas?

~~~
m3rc
If your doodad has a weak enough update framework that it bricks itself a
handful of years after production, good luck getting any revenue or funding
going forward.

~~~
monksy
Too late .. already ~scammed~ ~ran away with the money~ I mean "pivoted"

------
MentallyRetired
Let's not continue to find a reason to be outraged. That's the stuff mass
media wants people to do. I feel like this community is better than that.

They made a mistake and they've owned up to it and are doing the right thing.

Thank you, Logitech, for listening to your customers.

~~~
659087
If it weren't for the bad PR, Logitech wouldn't have done anything here, and I
doubt this is the last time they'll be trying to do the same thing since
companies have been gradually getting consumers acclimated to this being "the
norm".

People should still be upset about this, even after Logitech's bean counters
calculated that the negative PR cost would have been greater than the cost of
doing the right thing in this instance.

------
madmulita
I have a Sony Dash, even though I don't really use much of it, I find it
irreplaceable for the ability to program complex alarms. It's been working
fine for at least 4 years.

A couple of days ago we had a power failure, the thing hadn't been rebooted in
looong time. Since the reboot it hasn't been able to get passed an
'Authorizing...' screen.

Long story short, Sony discontinued some servers, the thing is a brick now.

I knew there were some cloud services been consumed but had no idea it
wouldn't work at all without those services. It's a freaking alarm clock!!!!

Even if Sony would make this same move, and I would happily take the
replacement, I would never buy another thing like this.

Dodge this bullet, what about the next one?

~~~
username223
> Dodge this bullet, what about the next one?

Yep. They'll keep shooting until enough buyers just give up and accept that
tech is arbitrary and terrible in this way, too. The end state is negative-
option billing protected by layers of automated phone "support" backed by a
few people who barely speak your language.

------
kevlar1818
Can someone summarize the apparent PR problem Logitech is trying to solve? I'm
not familiar with the situation.

~~~
Piskvorrr
Previous situation was apparently "That newish home automation device that you
bought from Logitech? It'd be a shame if anything were to happen to it - so
we're shutting it down for you. But by coincidence, here's a very similar
device that we're selling, and you're lucky, we'll give you a discount!" That
announcement...was not received amiably amongst the userbase. After a day or
two of internet's ire, it looks that the "loss of goodwill" column has finally
outstripped the "cost of total replacements" column.

tinfoilhat: Anyway, I for one deeply regret this - not least because I have
some great Logitech devices that I depend on, and now I'm worried someone
might decide to accidentaly brick them in a firmware upgrade, as they're no
longer generating profit for Logitech. /tinfoilhat

~~~
chrisrhoden
I think you are confusing the link and the hub. The link has no home
automation functions and hasn't been sold for 4 years.

That said, they badly mishandled this situation, and the fact that there was
so much product confusion (people thought they had just bought a link, when
they had bought a hub, and people who bought a link even when it was released
6 years ago have a reasonable expectation for it to keep working) and I am
glad they have shifted their position.

~~~
Piskvorrr
Am not. "Harmony Link allows you to use your Apple mobile device (iPhone,
iPad, or iPod touch) or Android mobile device to control your entertainment
system. Using the Logitech Harmony Link app, you can launch activities and
control devices with a single touch. " That, in my opinion, falls under "home
automation" \- consolidated, remote control of household entertainment system
is a part of that, IMNSHO. Also, while 6 years might be hopelessly outdated
for a mobile phone or a tablet, here I am, typing on an even older computer
(which has been only upgraded slightly), and don't get me started on the car.

For home automation, I would expect the appliance's lifecycle to be closer to
the refrigerator and oven (20 years and still going; EDIT: this applies to
audio as well, my previous A/V setup was mostly older than me while it worked,
and I'm no audiophile), not to "get your ass on the HW upgrade treadmill and
replace again with iWhatever2017 or suffer the consequences." There's the
point, as you note: the expectation to keep working, as opposed to an endless
pile of discarded gadgets.

------
shmerl
They should make a FOSS tool for configuring their devices. Current approach
is a horrible mess. Using some on-line server to configure a remote is very
wrong.

------
osteele
Idea: insurance (that looks like or is part of an extended warranty or service
contract) for cloud services.

Companies should be required to label whether a device depends on cloud
service. Customers could buy a guarantee, like a service contract, that the
service will keep running {for some amount of time, forever}.

If the company itself sells the guarantee, then it has to price the cost of
breaking these contracts into decisions about whether to maintain the service.
This doesn't protect the customer from a company going out of business,
though. Maybe the provider is required to put the money in escrow; or maybe
they're backed by re-insurer.

This allows customers to opt in or out, depending on their risk aversion and
other factors. And it's more predictable, and maybe more efficient, than a
class action lawsuit.

There's a model for this: consumers buy extended warranties and service
contracts for some goods, especially appliances.

------
SEJeff
Why I'm a fan of open source home automation: [https://home-
assistant.io/blog/2016/04/05/your-hub-should-be...](https://home-
assistant.io/blog/2016/04/05/your-hub-should-be-local-and-open/)

~~~
oh_sigh
You would still need hardware to communicate over the various smart home
standards(433,bt,ir,zigbee,wifi,etc)

~~~
SEJeff
And that hardware doesn't need to communicate with the cloud, see things like
this zwave usb stick (which works GREAT for zwave with home assistant and a
raspberry pi): [https://aeotec.com/z-wave-usb-
stick](https://aeotec.com/z-wave-usb-stick)

~~~
oh_sigh
I agree! I personally have a z-wave stick, hue bridge, lutron bridge, a custom
IR transceiver, etc automated w/ hass. But I can see the temptation to buy a
one-size-fits-all device which can communicate with all those products(or at
least their other hubs).

------
watbe
I think some context is necessary - I wasn't sure what this was about. Here's
an article from The Verge:
[https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/11/8/16623076/l...](https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/11/8/16623076/logitech-
harmony-link-discontinued-bricked)

------
andrewgjohnson
The worst part about this whole thing is the lack of clarity (or a simple
landing page) describing the difference between a Logitech Hub & Logitech
Link. I've had a Hub for years and didn't know the difference; had a hard time
the last week or so determining whether I was affected or not.

------
HelloNurse
Now the real question is what Logitech hardware is safe and what Logitech
hardware supports network-based firmware updates or the like.

Currently I only have a M235 wireless mouse; it works well, but what about its
drivers? Microsoft and Trust sell similar mice, and the choices for a
replacement have just reduced.

~~~
PascLeRasc
If you're looking for driverless mice, check out Zowie. They're expensive but
have amazing sensors and smooth gldiing and you can change the DPI through
buttons on the mouse on any OS. The EC2-A is very very comfortable too.

------
ravirajx7
> If you are a Harmony Link user, we will reach out to you between now and
> March 2018

Am I the only one who's thinking its a long deadline or does this have some
sort of explanation?

~~~
djrogers
March 2018 is when the Links stop working, so it's reasonable that they
wouldn't set an earlier deadline with basically zero notice. They're just
giving themselves as much time as possible...

------
Tomdarkness
From their post it seems like their SSL/TLS certificate is expiring? Seems
rather overkill to discontinue an entire product in the first place just
because of that.

~~~
notyourday
It looks like they pinned a wonky root cert.

------
ars
Background:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15652106](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15652106)

------
lostapathy
This still feels scummy.

I've long since switched to mechanical keyboards, but run a logitech mouse.
What's everybody like for a non-logitech mouse when mine dies?

~~~
megaman22
All of my mice are Microsoft branded (I assume they are still manufacturing
them). Pretty basic, cheap laser mice, one wired, one USB wireless. Never had
any issues with them, and the wireless one is probably going on ten years old
now.

~~~
PascLeRasc
They just released a new one too: [https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/store/d/microsoft-classic-in...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/store/d/microsoft-classic-
intellimouse/94k0pmt1cmfw?activetab=pivot:overviewtab)

------
mholt
What's the context here? I think I missed the first part of this.

~~~
wlesieutre
Logitech announced that they were going to remotely disable all Harmony Links

[https://gizmodo.com/logitech-will-be-intentionally-
bricking-...](https://gizmodo.com/logitech-will-be-intentionally-bricking-all-
harmony-lin-1820279591)

