
Ask HN: Thinking of moving to Europe from USA - alexhakawy
Not sure where to begin I am a US Citizen not a felon but wondering what I can do or the process to get started in moving to Europe?<p>what&#x27;s it like out there comparing to America. I want a new life fresh start new faces.<p>I have family in Europe I don&#x27;t have a degree or anything yet. 
I know some programming but I plan to live with an aunt out there. No kids no job 26 years of age
======
johnomarkid
If you are a programmer/designer you can get a 3 year freelance visa in
Berlin, Germany. I currently live in Berlin with that visa.

Your standard of living in Europe will vary. Sure, some places offer free
healthcare (not exactly free - see taxes), better public transportation, and
decent quality food at lower tier supermarkets. That's all great. On the other
hand, you'll likely take a huge hit in salary and pay higher taxes. That does
make a difference in lifestyle. A personal anecdote: in NYC I paid $2500/month
to live alone in a decent apartment in a vibrant area (East Village). That's a
lot of money! In Berlin I paid $700/month for an apartment of similar quality,
but because salary and taxes are so low, I wasn't able to save nearly as much
as I did in NYC paying high rent, a lot of money for quality groceries, etc.

There are other benefits of living in Europe like 30 days of vacation, ample
maternal/paternal leave, and some financial security if you lose your job.
That said, it's harder to get these jobs. Because of the risk companies need
to take when hiring new employees (ie paying for all the benefits above),
there's currently a huge workforce of temporary employees. Everyone is aiming
for the seemingly elusive "permanent contract."

I say make the move. You'll learn a lot about the world and yourself. You can
always move back to the US.

FYI this comes from the perspective of a software engineer turned entrepreneur
turned software engineer.

Berlin freelance visa:
[https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/305249/en/](https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/305249/en/)

~~~
winteriscoming
>> If you are a programmer/designer you can get a 3 year freelance visa in
Berlin, Germany. I currently live in Berlin with that visa.

For someone like me who doesn't understand German language, is it possible to
go on with the daily life interacting with the locals in English?

~~~
Fnoord
In Berlin, sure. The elder may not be able to understand your English.

Some rules of thumb:

1) The younger, the more likely to be able to speak English.

2) Rural area less likely to speak English (well) compared to big cities and
tourist areas.

3) In IT/tech world in Germany you should have far less problems than say
farmers.

I'd say those count in general though :) if you go to Amsterdam people are
much more likely to speak English than a local, small Dutch town foreigners
generally haven't heard about. And, English is very practical in our
globalised world. Make no mistake about German though; it is also a practical
language in Europe.

------
iagooar
I assume you want a career as a software engineer.

This is my list:

\- Berlin: cheap (getting expensive quick, but still cheap for a large city),
multicultural (many, many people from all around the world, lots of people
speak English, those who don't usually understand you), Germans themselves are
very open and interesting as a nation. Berlin has a vibrant startup scene,
which is nice for getting your first job as a young person with little
experience. The downside is that there is not many serious software companies
nor industry. Salaries are VERY low compared with the US. German is not
required for normal life, but highly recommended. Some companies still prefer
people with German.

\- London: Has many, many companies and is usually on the bleeding edge
technology-wise. Payroll is nice, although prices and rent are high. You won't
have to learn a new language and will be able to compete for all the job
offers as long as your profile fits in. The downside is the imminent Brexit,
which might be good or bad, nobody knows right now.

\- Zurich: once you are +30 and look for a more quiet, stable lifestyle,
Switzerland is the place to be. Salaries are US-level, health care, security,
public transportation and stability are the best in Europe (Norway might be
better though, but very close). It's VERY expensive, although if you come from
NY or from the Bay Area, rents are more or less in the same ballpark. The
language barrier is comparable as in Germany, although Swiss people usually
prefer when people speak English rather than standard German with foreign
accent. Swiss people might be a bit tough to crack, but are not that bad once
you know how to treat them. In the Zurich area there is tons and tons of
companies, lots of innovation going on as well. Finance is very strong.
Biotech is growing pretty strong.

I have 2 recommendations for you:

a) Go to Berlin, and then start looking around. It's a really cool place to be
for 26-year-old.

b) Go to London, you will have a much easier start and there is enough
companies for an adventurous career.

~~~
tbarbugli
I would not suggest Germany or (german) Switzerland to people that don't speak
german.

~~~
raverbashing
Studying another language is part of leaving your comfort zone. People can
start with the several apps available today, they don't even need to go to an
actual class.

------
orbz
I spent a few years living and working in Europe with EU companies or US
subsidies there. The one main gotcha that no one thinks about is the tax and
retirement savings side of things, both of which you should probably do.

As a US citizen you're obligated to file (and possibly pay) taxes no matter
where in the world you work and reside, no exceptions. It's the price of
having US citizenship and access to the US embassy. In most cases you probably
won't end up paying anything when you declare the tax you paid in your
resident country, but that gets complicated with that country having a
different tax year than the US (April to April vs calendar year). Get a
competent expat attorney and pay for it to be done for you. There's also the
FBAR which you might need to become acquainted with.

As for the retirement savings, lots of countries have their own types of
retirement accounts that can be invested in as part of your paycheck. The
caveat here is how to repatriate the funds when you leave before hitting your
60's. I haven't found a great way to roll those over to an IRA back in the
states yet.

~~~
Bombthecat
Do you really need to declare that you paid taxes in Germany? Isn't there some
sort of agreement?

~~~
mlent
There's ~90k cap. If your foreign-earned income is less than that, you state
the tax paid in Germany and don't need to pay for US taxes. If you make more
than ~90k, you have to pay taxes for the amount over ~90k.

~~~
Bombthecat
Thanks, yeah, I´m trying to understand that.. Since I need to do it for my
wife...

It looks super complex :(

~~~
mlent
I use TurboTax and it's built into the software finally, and makes this quite
simple. Originally they just made you look at the tax form and fill it out
yourself, but they've really improved the "foreign american" parts of the tax
software in the past two years.

~~~
Bombthecat
Nice! Which version should I use?

Oh boy,just realised that we need to report the last three years too. Called
streamlined process... Can they do that?

~~~
mlent
You would need to buy past versions of the software I think. I don't know how
that works -- I just use my parent's copy every year. You get like 3 licenses
whenever you buy the software, so if you know someone else who needs to file
maybe you can share ;)

But I think you'll have to print them out and mail them in manually, rather
than electronic filing. But I haven't tried myself so I'm not sure.

(Edit: To be clear, the tax software is versioned by tax year. So, "Turbotax
2016" is what I will use this year. So you'd have to buy Turbotax 2015, 2014,
and 2013 presumably.)

------
bane
Europe is great. I have several friends who've made this move. I'd say that
they have a higher and more relaxed quality of life at a much lower salary
than I know of in the U.S. Salaries are lower, taxes are higher, but I think
it balances out well.

One thing I've noticed is that if you're willing to live a bit outside of a
major city and along a commuter rail line (a commute not extraordinary by U.S.
standards but seemingly insane by European), housing costs can be much much
lower.

With a few exceptions, the kind of tech work will likely be more prosaic in
nature. The kind of big startup scene you might find in SV or other places in
the U.S. _does_ exist in Europe, but not at anywhere near the scale or with
the kind of capital availability that's present in the U.S. On the upside, the
work tends to be very stable.

Long-term, you'll have to think about retirement and either make a decision to
stay or return and start saving up. If you come back to the U.S., the system
is designed to offer you a reasonable retirement, but only after decades of
saving. You may not think that's important at 26, but you'll likely start to
feel it at 36. If you stay in Europe, you'll need to figure out the local
retirement system and how that work.

If you pull that trigger and stay in Europe, you'll probably want to look at
giving up your U.S. citizenship because you'll be obligated to pay taxes the
entire time you're in Europe (there's some deductions, but you'll still have
to do all the paperwork).

~~~
kbouck
> pension

If you move to Europe, build up a pension, and then move back to the U.S., you
should be able extract the money from that pension (according to the
conditions), regardless of where you reside in there future.

> taxes

You are obliged to report all of your foreign earnings to the IRS as well as
all of your foreign bank account status each year. You are taxed on your
income both in the local country and in the US :-/, but the US amount is only
on income above a certain threshold. Maybe someone can correct me but I think
the current amount is somewhere around $90k USD. Like my parent poster said,
there are deductions, so find a good tax adviser that is familiar with both
local and US tax laws.

~~~
afarrell
You can ether use the foreign earned income exclusion (which I think has risen
to closer to 100k) or the foreign tax credit.

You also want to take extensions so that you can qualify as a nonresident, or
you will pay the ACA penalty for not having health insurance.

~~~
toomuchtodo
If you live outside of the US for 330 days a year, you're considered exempt
from ACA coverage requirements.

~~~
afarrell
I think there is also something where you can take an extension in order to
hit the 330 day mark if you move in the middle of the year?

~~~
toomuchtodo
If such a loophole exists I'm unaware of it, but I would love to be proven
wrong if someone has a link or citation they can respond with.

------
kowdermeister
> what's it like out there comparing to America

It's totally different country by country. I never been to the US, but I
imagine it's much more homogeneous than the EU. For example you can go to
Berlin, Barcelona, Milano, Stockholm or Budapest and you can have radically
different experiences. It differs radically financially, demographically and
attitude wise.

I'd suggest to start with a Euro-trip and visit as many countries as you can
and then make a "final" choice where to settle.

~~~
tomschlick
> I never been to the US, but I imagine it's much more homogeneous than the EU

I'd argue they are mostly the same. IMO, The US is pretty similar in structure
to the EU where the US as a whole is comprised of many states, each with their
own laws. Yes there are federal laws but for the most part, each state can do
whatever they want.

Each state / region has vastly different cultures and standards of living.

~~~
tormeh
Ireland is richer than the US. Bulgaria is poorer than China. That's the gap.

~~~
jaqque
Per capita, Delaware is richer than Ireland (#37 in GDP), Mississippi is
poorer than Bahrain (#98). Bahrain is behind Bulgaria (#81). China (#2) is in
a class of its own, because of its enormous population.

This sidesteps the question of cultural differences state to state / country
to country, or even between urban/rural regions.

Sources:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states_and_countries_by_GDP_\(nominal\)_per_capita)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_\(nominal\))

~~~
tormeh
That's absolute GDP you're linking to.

Bulgaria: 6,843 USD per capita; Mississippi: 24,062 USD per capita

Bulgaria is a member of the EU. If you look outside the EU (but still in
Europe) you find countries that are poorer than Iraq and Vietnam.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_\(nominal\)_per_capita)

------
mbroncano
EU citizen currently living in the US here.

Hugely recommended, if only for comparison purposes. From my own experience,
English speaking countries are a must. If that's not an option, cities like
Barcelona or Berlin should cover your bases for at least a year, but you won't
survive for long without speaking Spanish or German. There are more things
than work in life, and you'll soon get tired of only dealing with expats or
your own nationals.

Please do not fool yourself too early into thinking 'yeah, I'll just learn the
thing', unless you have a knack for languages, or you already speak one or two
foreign tongues. YMMV though, it is certainly doable if you apply.

Scandinavian countries, Ireland or The Netherlands are your best bet these
days, and there is a relatively big IT sector in all of them.

Salaries are not what you expect coming from the US, your $200k rated job is
no more than 80k€, but you will certainly require much less. Saving is
possible and encouraged.

Edit: grammar

~~~
bogomipz
>"Salaries are not what you expect coming from the US, your $200k rated job is
no more than 80k€"

Is that a good rule of thumb then? $200k is fairly top end in the US.
Obviously there are people at the big SV companies that make more but 200K is
pretty close to top end for senior people. So you are saying that that 80K
Euros is the general top end for EU tech companies? Given that there is more
or less dollar to Euro parity now that is substantially less.

On the other hand you will work a lot of hours for that 200K in the US. Is
that also true of the EU for similar? I think that proper work life balance
should always be considered in addition to actual compensation.

~~~
mbroncano
I was indeed comparing a senior developer salary in SV with an equivalent
position in a country like The Netherlands or Sweden. The bottom side of the
bracket is more difficult to quantify in my view, and there are other aspects
involved such as minimum salary etc.

------
taway_1212
Man, you have a very vauable asset for a tech career - a US Citizenship. I am
very envious of folks who have it. The tech career opportunities outside of US
are really not that diverse and are heavily scattered across the world - i.e.
maybe the rest of the world combined is as interesting tech-wide as US is -
but with lower salary and language/immigration barriers (i.e. try job-hopping,
over a span of say 5 years, from Germany to New Zealand to China vs NYC to SF
to Seattle).

~~~
dClauzel
> you have a very vauable asset for a tech career - a US Citizenship

DAFUQ ? I am a French research in computer science, now working for a company
producing and streaming contents on the web.

I can assure you that my carrer opportunities — as sysadmin, researcher, or
developper — are pretty good in France and in Europe :)

~~~
taway_1212
I didn't say it's impossible, it's merely generally harder and for less money.

Re: sysadmin and developer roles - my post was mostly about diversity and
breadth of available roles. These sysadmin and developer roles are generic
enough that one will be fine in them in Europe. A sufficiently specialized
researcher, on the other hand, usually has only a handful of places in the
entire world that are interested in hiring him within his specialty - a lot of
which are in the US.

I see this in a friend of mine. He's a young PhD Machine Learning Researcher
with top credentials (Ivy League, top publications, won awards in his field).
He wants to live in Europe due to family concerns, but he really can't find a
position that would allow him use his talent, and is semi-wasting his time in
random bad Data Science jobs for now - while he's getting numerous awesome
offers from the US (like leading a research unit at Google or faculty
positions in Ivy League schools).

~~~
jfaucett
> it's merely generally harder and for less money.

My experience has been the opposite in terms of difficulty. In most EU
countries the market of software engineers who can also speak the native
country's language is really small so its way easier to stand out from the
crowd. In the US, you have to compete in a 350 million+ population pool plus
global candidates who have studied English their whole lives. In any given EU
country the candidate pool is a fraction the size and of those the one's who
can communicate fluently in the native language is a fraction of that
fraction.

~~~
taway_1212
You can't ignore the demand side of the equation though. US is leading
economic and military (which leads to lots of tech as well) superpower and a
lot of European countries are relatively backwater in comparison.

For example, in the UK, there's little real tech companies and most developer
roles are confined to non-tech support roles in other economy sectors
(finance, retail etc.).

~~~
ma2rten
I did a search on the most recent How's Hiring thread to see how many jobs are
offered in each city. I think it's fair to assume that most people posting
there are "real tech companies":

    
    
      San Francisco: 170
      New York: 96
      London: 90
      Boston: 38
      Berlin: 34
    

I just did a full text search so there might be some double counting.

~~~
taway_1212
> I think it's fair to assume that most people posting there are "real tech
> companies":

That is debatable and depends largely on a definition. My viewpoint is that a
large portion of the companies in the current VC-inspired "tech" world are
merely applying tech and not really developing it. For every company like
Datastax there's a dozen of companies which are just applying tech solutions
(packaged and sold by other companies) to a specific business/consumer
problem.

Or, to put it in other terms, if the job offer does not say "Msc/PhD in X
preferred" (where X is the job, like distributed systems, deep learning etc.),
then it's likely not quite a "real tech" job.

------
poisonarena
Sidenote, if you or your mom, happen to be jewish.. You can get a free ticket
to Israel, give you citizenship, the government will help you with housing and
actually give you money, and hebrew lessons.. They also have a booming tech
industry.. I lived there for a couple of years and while not exactly in
mainland Europe, it is very European. I currently live in Mexico City and
thats also a great non-Euro option !

~~~
EduardoBautista
I currently live in Guadalajara as a freelancer and I am thinking of moving to
Mexico City next year if I can convince myself to pay the higher rent. Loved
being there and there are areas similar to Brooklyn to give you an idea of
what life is like there.

~~~
poisonarena
convincing myself the same thing, but for Guadalajara!

------
nothrabannosir
Concretely, check out DAFT: the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT)

 _The treaty makes it easier for US Entrepreneurs to open businesses in The
Netherlands. It lowers the amount of needed investment capital from €27,000 to
€4,500, frees US Entrepreneurs from the points-based test, and removes the
benefit to Dutch national interests requirement. The residency permit is good
for two years, after which it can be extended._

------
colinbartlett
You won't exactly get fresh faces, but have you thought about working remotely
for an American company from Europe? Many companies are open to this and you
can skirt visa issues just traveling as a tourist. This way, you can dip your
toes into the locale you're interested in with less commitment and upending.

------
qz_
Europe is big - not geographically, but culturally. As kowdermeister already
said, you'll have _very_ different experiences in different parts of Europe.
Amsterdam's culture is very different from Barcelona's culture, which is very
different from London's culture. Go on a little trip: for Americans I'd
suggest Berlin, Amsterdam, London, Madrid, or anything you're interested in.

~~~
dom0
Europe (the continent) is about the same size as the US, just with twice as
many people living in Europe. NA is lots bigger, but a lot of empty space...

------
jfaucett
I can only speak for the countries I know about which are Germany, Poland and
France. But generally I think these properties hold across Europe as a whole,
at least from collegues or friends from other countries whom I've talked to,
this might not be the case though so check it out for yourself. So heres the
gist of it.

You will have a much lower standard of living by most monetary measures. Taxes
are higher than in the US and regulations/beurocracy is more extensive.
Everything is "smaller" from cars, houses, and land to meals. Energy costs -
especially transportation costs - are much higher almost everywhere, which
forces you to try to keep your energy consumption low compared to how you
would live in the US. There is virtually one sport everywhere and its soccer,
so facilities/clubs/organizations for any other sport are far behind US
standards. For instance, you will not be able to find anything resembling a
YMCA where you can workout with weights, play basketball and racketball and go
swimming all for some monthly membership. People all live much closer
together, so you won't be able to find a place thats even a little "off the
grid" this can be good or bad just depends on what you prefer.

On the more positive side, you will have "free" healthcare, but the quality
will vary drastically from country to country. In Poland its disastrous for
instance whereas in Germany its pretty nice and will cover just about all your
health costs and the quality is high as well. France is closer to the Germany
side of things but I'd say the overall quality is a bit lower. Also you will
rarely if ever work more than 40 hours a week and you'll also get 30 paid
vacation days a year from most employers. In Germany, sick days don't count
against your vacation days so it all compounds to a pretty big chunk of
leisure time. Additionally, there's all kinds of various social welfare
programs that will take care of you should you become unemployed or disabled
etc. these are extensive and well-funded in Germany and France much less so in
Poland.

I'm an expat and have lived/worked in Germany for the past 9 years, basically
my entire 20s and working life except for freelance web work I did while
getting my undergrad in the US.

~~~
alexhakawy
what kinda freelance work did you do

------
fsloth
"In Europe" is kinda broad statement. It's like saying moving to americas.
Honduras is not Alaska. Where to, exactly?

~~~
alexhakawy
London UK or Italy

~~~
fsloth
UK for work, Italy for holidays? To my understanding the employment options in
Italy generally suck. If someone has better information please revise.

------
roryisok
I am biased (born here) but I'd recommend Ireland. Zero language barrier, very
little cultural difference (all people seem to talk about these days are HBO
and Netflix shows and the US election).

There is huge demand for developers here at the moment. You're guaranteed a
job in Dublin, but rent can be a mini nightmare there. It starts at around 800
euro for single room bedsits, you could pay 1200-1500 per month for a house in
the suburbs with an hour commute. You may find work in other parts of the
country but most companies are in or around the capital.

Food here is good, standards of living are high, crime low, services (health
etc) competitively good. Irish people like to complain about it here but we
have it good

------
raverbashing
> what I can do or the process to get started in moving to Europe?

Do your homework? Learn a language besides English (maybe?)

At least rejoice, European visa processes are usually straightforward (if you
have a diploma) and it usually involves much less BS and waits than the
corresponding H1-B process

------
neximo64
Find a job in your country of choice and get your visa - then move, about as
simple as that.

If you're looking at a job on the continent make sure you know the local
language fluently (not English). It is said that its ok to know English alone
but it really isn't.

You'll come to the reason that most Europeans in the tech space opt for the US
- the compensation factor in Europe is relatively poor.

~~~
pg314
Lower compensation, but better social security (if you manage to get
citizenship), better working hours, more holidays.

I second learning the local language. That is one of the most important
requirements to truly integrate.

~~~
neximo64
Having gone through the experience myself it depends what you're aiming at. In
my opinion, in the tech space in particular the US is a no brainer for the
European to move to:

If you're aiming at your own startup, Europe is downright awful you control
the working hours, holidays and social security. Entrepreneurship is terrible
because the culture doesn't adapt well to it. Raising cash is like selling a
fridge to eskimos. There is a culture of hitting yourself at failure and
extremely conservative risk. Your own parents wont support you in a startup.

For a job in tech: In Silicon valley all those things you mentioned are quite
easy to come by? Social security, holidays, working hours and even better + a
wage which is why the draw is the other way from here.

~~~
drakonka
This is really interesting, I wonder if Stockholm is for some reason in its
own bubble when it comes to startups in the EU. We have so many (funded)
startups forming here it's kind of getting crazy (but in a good way). I mostly
only hear about new games companies forming as that's the industry I'm in -
quite a few people have recently left larger companies in Stockholm to start
their own game dev studios. I guess with time we will know how successful they
will be, but at least the process of branching off and starting your own
studio here seems quite accessible.

------
mlent
As I see that elsewhere you mentioned that you only have basic technical
skills, I will offer you this information:

* If seeking a job, you will have a hard time being hired without much more experience.

* You cannot "just move" to any European country without getting a job there, unless you have a bunch of money in the bank or proven income (usually a minimum of 50k a year), and only some countries allow you to come for "non-lucrative" purposes. Easiest is Spain.

* Getting a freelancer visa is generally difficult unless, again, you can prove a track record. It's much easier to start as a normal employee and apply to be a freelancer after a few years in the system.

* My #1 suggestion to anyone looking to move to Europe for work: Come here on vacation, apply for jobs in person, land a contract, move here. Getting a job in person is so much easier. In Germany you need to make at least 38k to qualify for the skilled worker visa. You can make as little as ~36k if your job is in a STEM field. You will not get hired without solid experience if you're applying from America, I can tell you that with near certainty.

I have a hand full of articles on my blog you may find useful. However, they
are mostly geared towards people who are highly skilled. IMO you need to focus
on honing your skillset before you try to move abroad, because any European
country is only going to take you if you're an asset to the system or rich
enough, basically.

[http://notanomadblog.com/categories/work-
abroad/](http://notanomadblog.com/categories/work-abroad/)

I'm a developer from the US living in Berlin. I've been in Germany for about
3.5 years now. Let me know if you have any questions and I'll be happy to
answer them!

As a last statement: I love living in Europe and may never move back to the
US.

------
radicalbyte
I moved from the UK to The Netherlands a decade ago. It was a fantastic
decision. It's nice here, most people speak English (although I learnt the
language) and there's a lot of demand for Developers. There are also crazy tax
incentives which result in you paying basically 0 tax for the first 5 years.
That covers the costs of learning the language (3k EUR and it takes 2 years).

~~~
chatmasta
Can you talk more about those tax incentives?

~~~
lomereiter
I believe he talks about the 30% ruling:
[http://www.iamsterdam.com/en/local/official-
matters/highly-s...](http://www.iamsterdam.com/en/local/official-
matters/highly-skilled-migrants/thirty-percent-ruling/30-percent-ruling-
indepth)

------
drakonka
Does the US have a working holiday visa arrangement with Europe? This is how I
moved, but I was moving from Australia. Got my Australian citizenship and
applied for working holiday visa to Sweden. Visa documentation was emailed to
me within a couple of weeks of the application. This allowed me to move with
my savings and look for a job on-site. The employer I found then helped me out
with the process of applying for my employee visa and residence permit once my
working holiday visa was near expiry.

If you're a senior dev you may be able to just bypass the "move first" step
and get a job remotely with a relocation package. I had experience in my
chosen industry but was still considered fairly junior, so moving to the
country and applying from there ended up being more productive than looking
for a company that would deal with relocating a junior from the other side of
the world.

~~~
fulafel
Many (most?) countries will give you a work visa if you have a job offer, and
will let you stay if that turns permanent. It's not tied to the US.

~~~
drakonka
Yes, but I'm not really sure what this has to do with my comment? A Working
Holiday visa is not the same as a work visa that you get if you have a job
offer. The point of my getting a Working Holiday visa was to move to the
country for a substantial amount of time (the visa allows 1 year) and look for
work while there instead of trying to convince an employer to hire a junior
from overseas.

Most EU countries also have restrictions on the employee visas they grant -
such as the position having to be advertised within the country (or maybe
within the EU) first with some exceptions for very specialist roles, etc. In
addition (speaking only for Sweden here) even afterwards it's not as easy as
going to the Migration board and going "Well here's my offer, give me a visa!"
\- the Migration board checks with the relevant union to vet the offer and
make sure conditions of employment are suitable. In addition to that queues
can be very long, so having the assistance of a larger company that frequently
liaises with both the migration board and the unions when applying for a visa
can help fast track the entire process.

------
lordnacho
That's a big life decision.

I've lived in Europe my whole life, but I have a lot of friends and relatives
in the US. I've also lived in 3 different European countries, and of course I
know people from just about all the Western European nations.

There's a lot got you to think about. This is only a small part, off the top
of my head:

\- If you're American, you pay tax worldwide. Most countries have higher tax
than the US, so you just pay their tax. Switzerland is different. I lived
there, it's a pain as an American to even get a bank account. And you'll have
to file a return. A friend of mine is half American and is an accountant. It's
annoying for him as well.

\- Languages. Which do you speak? Most Northern European countries have
significant numbers of companies where they speak English. That's not to say
you can't learn the language, English is a Germanic language, so not a million
miles off German, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, etc. Yet you're not going to
understand it getting off the plane.

\- Social. Are you coming by yourself or are you married? Got kids? It's hard
to find documentation for this, but the way one socialises depends a lot on
which country you're in, whether you're in the countryside or the city, and
whether you have kids or are single. Anecdotally I'd also say some of the
Germanic nations have hard-to-penetrate social circles. It's not that they
don't like you, they already have their friends and haven't needed to make new
ones since college.

\- Culture shock. I guess you actually want that. But remember you can drop a
guy from New York in LA and they will not have a problem at all. Take a guy
from Edinburgh to Rome, and they are now a tourist. The plus side is it takes
a two hour flight to see something completely different, with different
looking people, weather, history, and so on.

\- Visa. This is going to depend a lot of the specific country.

Anyway I'm sure you'll have questions.

~~~
alexhakawy
if I have family there do I still need visa to live with them?

~~~
robjan
You will unless they are closely related enough to give you citizenship
rights. Nationality law is completely different from country to country within
Europe, though.

~~~
alexhakawy
It's my fathers sister.

~~~
mantas
Depends how she got citizenship. If she got it through bloodline, maybe you're
eligible too. If not, you can come as a tourist. Probably 3-6 months,
depending on country. May be eligible for cheaper visa if you'd supply an
invite from her.

Keep in mind that major non-EU countries (US/CA/AU/etc) don't need visa for
tourist stuff. You'd get a stamp at airport for x months and that's it.

------
takeda
You are already making a mistake that Europe is a single country, so I'm
getting that you never visited it.

Europe is a continent with many countries speaking different languages, with
different cultures.

You should be more specific where you want to go.

------
bendermon
I am neither European nor American and have been living in Copenhagen for
about 3.5 years. Here are some observations.

The one big difference is that at the end of the month you would have nothing
left to save. And if you plan to move out at a later point you would have
neither money nor a useful professional network.

You would not be eligible for most of the good things we hear about socialist
states - social housing, paid education.

If you are young and healthy you may not have much to get out of the free
healthcare.

Be ready to pay incredibly high rents for private company housing or be
homeless constantly, I have moved 9 times in 3.5 years and now I pay more than
half my pay in rent+transport to live in a city 100 KMs away (unlimited by
expensive).

Language and Credentials: Can be a short term and long term barrier, be ready
to start from square one at least on your first job.

Pay: Usually unionised, software engineers earn about average salaries just
like everyone else, even though they have diminishing career prospects. I was
shocked to learn that CS was the least attractive majors, now I understand
why.

Scale and opportunity: There is no critical mass at least in small countries
like Denmark so I believe the best opportunities are still the ones in the US,
especially if you want to specialise.

I am sure you have heard plenty of the positives of life in Europe and assume
it must be the reason for your question.

------
yawz
Any idea what country? I lived in different countries in Europe, and I
currently live in the US. I can tell by experience that EU countries differ
among each other more significantly than US states.

------
wfleming
I did this: moved to the U.K. for several years. To echo some of the other
excellent comments here, I think the main takeaways should be:

1\. Compensation is generally lower than in the US. That's worth keeping in
mind depending on your age & long terms plans, if you have those already.
Don't let it turn you off from the idea, because living elsewhere can be
wonderful, but it's worth being clear that this probably isn't the optimal
choice for your bank balance/savings. But it doesn't sound like that's your
priority, so that's fine.

2\. If the primary reason for the move is a lifestyle change, I agree with
others that the best way to do that is figure out where you want to live &
then look for jobs there (or freelance/work remotely if that suits you). From
my personal experience & seeing friends go through it with various countries,
it's usually fairly straightforward & a company that wants to hire you should
be able to help out with the process.

I'll second Berlin as a really good choice for location: culturally very
vibrant & has a rapidly growing tech & art scene. I know several people who
have moved there in the last few years.

I'll also say I personally loved living in London, and already being fluent in
the language has its perks, but that may not be as much of a change as you
want.

Good luck!

~~~
alexhakawy
freelancing sounds nice but I'm willing to just work out there and start from
the bottom to make my way up.

------
shortsightedsid
I recently moved for an year's assignment to Amsterdam. Intercompany transfer.

The process has been interesting. The main thing which took time was getting
my Birth certificate legalized under The Hague convention a.k.a apostilled.
After that it's documentation work which my company lawyer handled. Once I got
here it's taken time to get used to the differences but thoroughly enjoy it.

Highly recommend it, if you can. The best route has been this - inter company
transfer.

------
hiphopyo
A lot of Americans live in Norway:

[https://visitnorway.no/](https://visitnorway.no/)

[https://nav.no/workinnorway/en/Home](https://nav.no/workinnorway/en/Home)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Americans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Americans)

------
bogomipz
You can only remain in the Schengen Zone for 90 days every 6 months as a US
Citizen. Have you given any thought to your strategy there? Some countries
will allow a language learning visa which could help you get some extra time
until you get yourself sorted out for work. You don't want to overstay your
tourist visa either, as it will likely cause problems for you when you leave
and try to come back.

------
tr1ck5t3r
Sounds like you want to go travelling, perhaps you can get some contract work
from some of those online contract/freelance sites.

You need to decide what your work life balance is to be. If you want to do
more soaking up the culture, consider the above option, if you want to do more
work and learning then decide what area you want to work in and then look for
companies that might present those opportunities. You'll have a mix of costs
where ever you go in the world and within a country. I could say lots of jobs
in and around Cambridge, and whilst the city is expensive to buy, many
students manage the costs of renting shared accomodation, but move outside the
city heading anywhere but south towards London and costs can fall.

I guess its a case of setting your standards accordingly. You dont say where
your Aunt lives either which might also limit your options.

Here in the UK you can get on the job training as an apprentice, but I dont
know if its restricted to just UK Citizens or people from overseas as well.

Perhaps a bit more detail in your Ask HN might help you get more detailed
useful info.

------
Pica_soO
German here. Had a friend who studied info scienes. He does the tour- as in
traversing the Mediterranean coast (Marroko, Porto,Spain,France,Italy,
Austria, the Balkan (the european middle east), Greek, Israel - living in
AirBnB Flats, working remote. Great landscape, great climate, tax avoiding if
you stay in no country longer then the max-tax time.

Con: Sucks if you want a stable live and a family.

------
TamDenholm
I dont know the specifics as i'm not a US citizen, but to my knowledge, i
think if you earn a wage in another country outside the US, you will have to
pay the local taxes and also tax back to the US Gov as well. Someone please
correct me or clarify if i'm wrong.

~~~
jaclaz
There is AFAIK an allowance of up to around US$ 100,000 for wages and similar
income, BUT you will have to file taxes on both countries, some reference:

[http://www.expatinfodesk.com/expat-guide/nationality-
specifi...](http://www.expatinfodesk.com/expat-guide/nationality-specific-
information/americans/us-tax-liability/)

[https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-
taxpayers/fore...](https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-
taxpayers/foreign-earned-income-exclusion)

In the real world, unless you are a "top notch" executive or programmer, etc.
it is not-so-easy to reach that amount with European wages.

------
raarts
I'm from Amsterdam, lived in the US recently for 2 years (Atlanta). Salaries
are lower in the EU, taxes are higher, rents are lower. On the other hand I
found many things to be more expensive in the US : health care, car insurance,
education, groceries.

I found that in the end it turned out to be more or less the same.

What's left is culture shock, which is actually very good for you, broadening
your horizon.

In Europe everything seems smaller though, that's a real difference. Also
architecture has more history.

One important advice though, which is true for every country: learn the
language!!

------
Broken_Hippo
The first thing you'll need to decide is where you'd like - and if you can go
to those places. Most of the time, you'll either need to go to school, work,
or marry someone to live there. Some countries have visas for job searching,
but it might be difficult without a degree.

For the countries you have relatives in, you'll have to check their
immigration policies. Generally only close relatives are eligible for family
immigration, but there might be exceptions. You might check schooling in those
countries as well.

Good luck!

------
loxs
Prepare to be much worse financially. You will earn less, pay higher taxes (as
percentage) and will feel much poorer.

Cars, especially nice ones, are much more expensive (in absolute numbers, not
only as percentage of income) to buy and own. Petrol is several times the US
price.

Rents are higher in most cities (at least compared to income). Maybe only SV
is worse compared to Europe.

All tech gadgets are more expensive, roughly at +20% in absolute terms,
because of VAT

And yeah, on top of that you get "free" healthcare, which is usually of very
questionable quality.

~~~
scrollaway
Are you trying to spread fud? Because everything you said is either plain
wrong or made to sound worse than it is.

1\. All prices in europe include tax, unlike in the US where it's customary to
not include tax in the price and pay it at checkout. Stuff tends to be more
expensive not just because of VAT but also because of shipping prices and
extra consumer protections such as mandatory 2 year warranties.

2\. Just like in the US, rent varies wildly. In Athens you can pay 100€/month
for a studio. In London, you'll find that same studio for 10-15 times that
depending where you look. "Compared to income" IME it's about equal if not
better - please cite your sources.

3\. Healthcare is unquestionably of excellent quality across the board. I've
lived in France, the UK, Greece, Sweden, there's no exceptions.

4\. Petrol prices are kinda irrelevant when you don't need a car. European
cities are far, far more tightly packed than the west coast. In all capitals
you can get all your stuff done by foot, metro or cycling.

What you're somehow forgetting however while complaining about earnings is
that as a US citizen, you need to watch out for double taxation when moving to
a different country. So I don't know, your post here is actually super
counterproductive.

~~~
loxs
What you say is correct. All things have variations. The Athens flat for 100
euro (though I highly doubt the price you cite) has it's equivalence somewhere
in cheap cities of the US

I never said that healthcare was "bad", only that it has its problems.

Please note that I didn't say that Europe is worse, just that you'll be worse
financially, which I didn't see you disproving.

~~~
scrollaway
I can cite that price from personal experience :)

You said healthcare is of "questionable quality". Everything has its problems
but as far as I'm concerned, healthcare in europe is top notch. You certainly
don't hear about "healthcare horror stories" in europe, unlike in the US...

I'm not sure what "worse off financially" even means. It depends. For a long
time I was working from home for an international company and earning far more
a month than I'd need in a year. Like you said, there are equivalents in the
US.

~~~
ColanR
And yet you still don't disprove his point. "More than needed in a year"
doesn't deny a relatively inferior financial position.

~~~
scrollaway
Is "working 1 month to be well off for the entire year" an inferior financial
position to you?

I have news for you: for nearly the entire rest of the world, it's not. Leave
your bubble for the new year, will ya?

~~~
loxs
I also am happy with my financial situation. That doesn't mean that what I
said is not true. Salaries which a re "standard" in the US, like 100-150k USD
are very hard to attain in Europe, working for European employers. They are
certainly not "standard".

~~~
scrollaway
Not only is that untrue in several places (Zurich, Stockholm, Paris and until
recently London) but you simply can't look at it using just the raw numbers;
you have to take perks, quality of life and how much you're actually saving up
into account.

Six figures is barely enough to keep up with living costs in some parts of SF,
whereas in Greece it's 1-2 orders of magnitude lower depending on which part
you live in.

------
patrickbuahgiar
I think the cheapest European citizenship you can buy is Maltese citizenship
for just €650k + 25-50k each for spouse and children. Maltese citizens have
visa-free access to 168 countries and territories, thus ranking the Maltese
passport 9th in the world (the highest ranking of all the recent new member
states of the EU) according to the Visa Restrictions Index. check out
[http://www.maltaimmigration.com/](http://www.maltaimmigration.com/)

~~~
jf271
If you have relatives from Europe look into citizenship via decent. My
grandmother was born in Ireland and I was able to acquire Irish citizenship
because of that. Now I have dual US/Irish citizenship

~~~
alexhakawy
wow that's cool I'll have to look into it. Thanks

------
alkonaut
Go find out. What are your career plans? Do you want to do websites or work in
a bar? How do you value short commutes/cheap living costs vs. high incomes?
How do you value high income versus rain or snow? if you haven't visited many
places in europe, perhaps you have traveled the US can say e.g. "I'd do
anything to get Californian climate, I couldn't stand Minnesota"... With some
more info we can give you a hint.

~~~
alexhakawy
Cold weather or hot doesn't matter to me. I enjoy everything. I do want to
become a web developer eventually doing remote work but until I learn
everything to know about freelance web developing I will work at a bar or
warehouse whatever it takes to survive out there. Not sure how the whole Visa
thing works or if they'll let me stay there past 90 days I got aunt out there

------
gorbachev
What I would do is visit the places you're interested in first without
committing to staying. Buy a rail pass and travel from city to city, get a
feel of each city for a week or two, network with the people you want to
associate with and once you're done, or find something you feel like is
exactly what you're looking for start arranging the actual move and getting a
job in the city of your choice.

------
kazinator
Note that USA citizens living abroad, no matter for how long, are required to
pay USA income tax. The only way out of this parasitic arrangement is to give
up your citizenship. The USA charges hefty fees for citizenship renouncement.
They know you're doing it for money and want to squeeze something out of you
before you get away for good.

~~~
johnomarkid
This is misleading. Income of up to $101,300 is excluded. Also, tax credits
are given if the amount you pay in the country you live in is higher than what
you would have been paid in the US.

Given that a salary of $101k in Europe is unlikely, and that taxes are almost
always higher in Europe than the US, you do not need to worry about paying
income tax to the US.

You do, however, need to file a tax return.

I don't support these policies, but I wanted to clarify things for people who
could get scared away by your comment. It really isn't that bad.

When U.S. Citizens Living Abroad Owe U.S. Tax: [http://www.nolo.com/legal-
encyclopedia/when-us-citizens-livi...](http://www.nolo.com/legal-
encyclopedia/when-us-citizens-living-abroad-owe-us-tax.html)

~~~
futhey
Correct. One thing to remember, the $102,100 Foreign Earned Income Exclusion
only applies if you spend 330 days of the tax year abroad or have legal
residency in the other country (and even in that case you're not supposed to
spend more than a few months residing in the US).

------
afarrell
I moved US -> UK in July and don't regret it at all. This depended on me
getting a tier-2 visa though. This is harder without a degree and programming
skill.

If you want recommendations for communicative, knowledgeable, & ethical
recruiters in London or Dublin, I'd be happy to connect you. My email is in my
profile.

------
PaulHoule
I think Europe is going just as nutty as the states, maybe more. I am betting
that the national front wins in France and France drops out; after that the
euro collapses and we see a monetary nightmare.

~~~
askmike
I would like to take you on that bet. I also wonder if you have ever been to
anywhere in Europe.

~~~
PaulHoule
I lived in Germany for a year and have spent time in the UK, Netherlands,
Austria, Czech Republic, etc.

Yes, Europe has architecture where the U.S. has decorated sheds. But the
social fault lines in Europe aren't that different from the social fault lines
in the states.

From day one the pundits have been concerned that effects related to

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_trinity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_trinity)

would blow up the euro -- i.e. Germany and Italy might have reasons to have
different monetary policies. Many economists think the situation is truely
intractable (they'd like it if the "Impossible Trinity" was a solid concept)
but it certainly is intractable if you don't face the social fault lines head
on.

------
holydude
I recommend Prague or Bratislava. You can save a lot and get a job in one of
the US corps. People are down to earth. They really like americans and will
speak english all the time when you are around.

~~~
rurban
I would also add Wroclaw, Cracow or Warsaw then.

~~~
holydude
Agreed. Awesome cities. Poles are awesome people as well!

------
woogiewonka
Off topic but: is anyone freelancing from Japan? I may be doing this soon and
have so many questions for someone who is currently doing this!

------
anonymfus
>I have family in Europe

Then if you specify country where they live may be you will get more specific
answers.

~~~
alexhakawy
London UK , and Italy Rome.

~~~
cav71
The job market in Italy (and Rome) is a very closed circle: hard to get into.
Best jobs are in the defence sector but those require clearance.

------
nopasswordhere
Contact the embassy of the country you want to go to.

------
jankotek
Do remote work for US company...

~~~
alexhakawy
I can't find even remote work inside the US lol I know HTML, CSS and basic JS

~~~
krapp
Nowadays that's like trying to find work as a mechanic because you know how to
change a tire.

I know HTML, CSS, JS, C++, C#, PHP and Hack - and I often can't find work
because the bar of competence for many programming jobs still requires
knowledge of frameworks, libraries and processes that I don't have experience
with, and because the freelance market is global. It can be difficult to tick
all the boxes and stand out in a crowd of millions.

------
alexhakawy
made some changes to my post to clear things up. Thanks everyone for the
advices.

------
matttheatheist
By all means, do it!

Meanwhile, the best and brightest Europeans come to America.

------
cylinder
The New World is better for fresh starts than Europe.

~~~
Noseshine
Source? Not just an opinion please, I mean an _actual_ source - with facts,
figures, data. Also, you would have to define what you actually mean by
"better" (as well as what "fresh start" really means). Details. What kind of
person (with enough relevant details to actually be a useful description)
doing what can expect what based on what where exactly (US and Europe are both
huge and very diverse places)?

~~~
cylinder
I'm not obligated to provide a "source." It's called an opinion. If one seeks
merely a "fresh start," then just move somewhere else in the USA. If
frustrated with the government, politics, culture of the USA, then move to
Europe or some other country.

~~~
Noseshine
With that attitude you can just pipe /dev/random to the comment section.
What's the use of your comments if they contain nothing ob substance?
Rhetorical question. I think /r/politics on reddit is far better suited for
that kind of "discussion" than HN which aims to be of better quality.

------
simonebrunozzi
If you ask on HN, and given you're American, you could start by writing more
correctly. Reading your "ask" is a bit annoying, it contains so many grammar
mistakes. It shows that you did this quickly and without regard to your
audience.

~~~
zzzzz99997
Keep your grammar-nazism to yourself. Reading shit like this is "a bit
annoying".

