

Whats up with programmers avoiding programming? - b4c0n

Since when did this new wave of "I am a programmer and all I want is time away from my computer and to not have to worry about programming and software" come about?<p>All I seem to see on threads asking for advice on becoming a better programmer is "get out and get some exercise", and most discussions focused around "I am a programmer and the most important thing to me is spending time away from my computer".<p>I don't get it - I just don't get it. Is there anyone out there like me that would stay indoors tinkering with hardware and software over spending time rock-climbing or vacationing any day of the week?<p>I grew up in Australia, on the beach in fact. I had a great job as a senior developer and I spent almost every weekend in the office playing with new and better ways to improve our software. I found that to be more rewarding than any kind of outdoors activity, even considering a great beachside location.<p>Where did people's unwavering passion for their craft go, did programmers suddenly discover something that I am missing? Is it "uncool" to be a hardcore programmer now?
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spacemanaki
Walking away from the computer and going outside can be incredibly beneficial
to solving problems you're stuck on. You keep thinking about the problem even
while you're away, and the problem drifts in and out of your consciousness as
you're off doing non-programming things, but somehow this "light" thinking
ends up stirring some extra understanding or breakthrough. Many other people
report similar experiences, see Rich Hickey's Hammock Driven Development talk
for a related but slightly different take.

Other than that, I don't think there is any new wave, unless I'm out of touch
and you're not. Most of my peers and colleagues hack through the weekends, on
their own work, or something fun and new, like learning a new language, a new
app platform, or something hardware related like 3d printing and Arduino
tinkering.

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b4c0n
I agree 100% about spending some time in a different headspace than one that
is getting you nowhere - but to point just fingers at the 2 posts today that
tipped me over the edge, this is the mentality I am referencing:

<http://www.fullcontact.com/2012/07/10/paid-paid-vacation/>
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4215912> (the comment which begins "If
you're 17 and already a decent programmer, my best advice to you is to have
some fun and exercise")

It just seems strange to me someone asking "how do I become a better
programmer" is "Exercise". This mentality of "Be a better programmer by being
less of a programmer" confuses me.

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spacemanaki
I think you're just overreacting. The first link is really more about labor
issues, and one employer being very generous to their employees. The second
was about a _17 year-old_. That's not general advice for all programmers.
Honestly, my advice to someone 17yo who knows how to program would be similar!
That's just age talking to youth, and sure maybe some of the commenters went
off topic but I can't blame them. I would tell any 17yo to broaden their
horizons too, because getting well rounded at 17 is going to be more valuable
in the long run. The advice in that thread wasn't all "go exercise", that
appears to be only one comment. Certainly not a "new wave".

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jlarocco
I'm pretty certain the question is trolling, but...

It's because sitting in front of a computer coding all day, everyday makes a
person fat and boring. And nobody else wants to hang around people who are fat
and boring.

It may not be obvious that coding all the time makes a person fat and boring,
so the "get out and do stuff" responses are warnings to let people know that
there's more to life than writing code.

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chipsy
Most people, most of the time, are not working on projects so fun and engaging
that they enter crunch of their own accord.

If you are, go for it. But the rest of the time you have to assume your
programming will be dealing with "boring problems" that don't allow for an
exciting solution - a balanced lifestyle helps make those situations
acceptable.

~~~
b4c0n
Were I to be in that situation, I would be using my spare time to engage in
programming something fun and rewarding for myself - not spending my time
further away from programming, loathing and dreading the moment I return to a
keyboard. That is what I don't get... surely spending time doing things to
avoid solving "boring problems" would further compound the issue of wanting to
avoid programming?

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khyryk
>I don't get it - I just don't get it. Is there anyone out there like me that
would stay indoors tinkering with hardware and software over spending time
rock-climbing or vacationing any day of the week?

No, programming isn't the pinnacle of enjoyment and/or pleasure for me. It can
be an interesting way to pass time, but it's also a great way (for me, and I'd
say for most people once enough time has passed) to become fat and boring if
taken too far.

You have a hard time understanding why someone would not want to do one
certain really cool thing as often as they can, while I wonder how you can
possibly keep doing just one thing and miss out on everything your damn short
life has to offer.

I'll go a step further in isolating myself and say that if I had an
"unwavering passion" for something, I'd begin to suspect some sort of
compulsive disorder.

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pux0r3
I used to be like that, always spending every moment coding or learning about
ways to improve coding (and I did learn and improve a lot). But I also had
absolutely no social life and was terribly overweight/out of shape. I still
code in my free time (in fact, I spent much of today playing with Scala and
LWJGL), but I make a conscious effort to head out and interact with the world
(in as nerdy of a way as possible of course, I have a FuelBand which forces me
to go out and be active to keep my streak up). I love coding (both at work and
for fun) and would still do it all day every day if I could, but I found my
quality of life increased by leaps and bounds as I picked up the slack
elsewhere (not just in fitness, but mentally as well. Especially walking
around, hiking, exercise, &c helps clear my mind and refocus). Maybe you're
not as totally lost as I was, but until technology advances enough for me to
exist as a brain in a vat, I have actually found it very important to get away
and engage tertiary faculties not directly related to the generation of
sourcecode. And I'm never too far away from my projects anyway. I tend to have
a chromebook/tablet/phone with me running an ssh client and a tmux session
always running on my raspberry pi, but typically forget about it entirely
unless I have a sudden epiphany).

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saiko-chriskun
Yep, you're spot on. You just don't get it.

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codeonfire
The first question would be "Is this advice truly coming from programmers?"
Even if it is, 'being a better programmer' means different things to different
people. Many people are not dedicated to trying to be the best but still
identify as a programmer.

If you ask someone how to be a better musician, someone might say "go to more
shows", 'hang out and collaborate with other musicians", or "try lots of
different instruments". If you ask someone who strives to be the best musician
and is world class, they hear the question as "how do I be the best musician"
not "how do I be a better musician." Who wants to merely be better? They only
know to be the best and will say "practice all night and all day forever". It
doesn't mean they are the best or ever will be, but its a different mindset.

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jconley
I purposely avoid programming and electronic devices for the sake of
perspective and brainstorming.

When I'm writing code I'm boxed into production mode. Get. Shit. Done. But,
particularly when the work I am doing is self-directed and self-prioritized
(aka my own startup or side project), I need hours away to really think about
the big picture.

Activities that are away from the bombardment of input of my computer/phone
work best for me. Let my mind wander. Think about different ways to approach
problems. I often find there are higher priority things to do than whatever I
thought I was going to code up next.

~~~
b4c0n
Hmm... This makes sense, but you are keeping 2 things on the top of your mind.
You are either programming, or planning how best to approach the next step for
your project/business plan. I can understand how time away from the keyboard
would help with your situation.

The main attitude that confuses me is the "You have to be definitely doing
nothing of the sort, no programming, no business, no nothing. Disconnect and
fuck off for a few weeks or months", and the people that pursue and desire
that for themselves. You just sound like you put proper time and effort into
the 2 areas that you conduct your business through :)

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runT1ME
Coding is one of the most enjoyable things in life for me. There are times
when a good coffee, nice music, and scala turn into hours of bliss.

However, I just don't think it's possible to operate in the mindset required
for good software engineering for prolonged periods of time, day in and day
out, without breaks.

So I do other things to recharge. I am friends with a professional martial
arts instructor. It's his favorite thing to do, but doing it ten hours a day 7
days a week isn't healthy for his body. So he surfs and reads books etc. too.

Don't see why it would be any different for your mind.

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ntkachov
There is a difference between having an unwavering passion for ones craft and
having an unwavering passion for ones craft between 9am and 5pm.

Sure, your job could also be your hobby but that doesn't mean that your job
HAS to be your hobby. I know plenty of engineers who love tinkering with stuff
but would rather spend the weekend doing other things and spend time with
family and friends.

Edit: I too spend 14 hours a day programming. But I'm working towards a start
up. I love what I do and I do enjoy it, but I would much rather spend the
weekend hanging out with people if I had the chance.

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b4c0n
I too have endured the programming requirements of a startup, I feel you when
you say 14+ hours a day programming. But I absolutely loved the rush, I would
have spent more time getting our product more complete/polished if I had the
opportunity.

Seeing something I built go out there and help people, make people happy,
provide a service that people use day to day, now THAT is something I want to
spend my time doing, be it on or off the clock. That filled and continues to
fill most of my weekends/afternoons.

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foxhop
I think people who enjoy programming, really enjoy it,don't communicate here
as much as other places.

I am with you though, I would have rather stayed home and worked implementing
gradual engagement on one of my "pet" web applications then going to the jack-
and-jill party with my wife today.

Oh well, there is always tonight, after hours.

~~~
b4c0n
:)

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chrisbennet
Having passion for your craft does not have to be an exclusive thing. Can you
image other artists bemoaning Leonardo da Vinci's "lack of passion" because he
worked on engineering projects as well?

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Jare
I've never met a great programmer than didn't also love other stuff besides
programming. Variety is the juice that creativity runs on.

~~~
b4c0n
Oh absolutely. But when did people come to Hacker News to discuss how much
they love doing stuff besides programming, or how to reduce the amount of
programming you do?

Can't find any examples just right now, but the mentality of "I am a
programmer and I want more time away from programming" seems to be everywhere
at the moment, I don't get it. Not so much "why do people love other things",
but "why don't programmers love programming as much as other they love other
things".

(I am a guitar player and would die without 1-2 hours of jamming every couple
of days, just so you know I'm not lying, I can love other things as well! :P)

