
YouTube Stars Are Pushing a Shady Gambling Site - smacktoward
https://www.thedailybeast.com/youtubes-biggest-stars-are-pushing-a-shady-polish-gambling-site
======
mabbo
I'm actually pretty impressed by how clever and insidious the "YouTuber"
advertising game is. All these 'personalities' and 'stars' put out whatever
content continues to get views- and there's a beautiful survival of the
fittest game going on there- and then once they have subscribed viewers they
can subtly promote anything at all and be paid for it.

My wife watches a bunch of 'cleaning' and 'makeup/style' YouTubers. All I see
when I view it are advertisements pretending to be personal videos. She loves
it. The ones for kids are especially creepy when you really dig into what's
going on.

They've convinced people to subscribe to advertisements so they see them as
soon as they're posted. That's even better than Facebook convincing everyone
to give them all their personal information so it can be 'shared'.

~~~
jasode
_> I view it are advertisements pretending to be personal videos. She loves
it._

Your wife has a normal response to ads when the _topic is interesting_ to the
viewer. That's the holy grail of "relevant ads": the boundaries of the "ad"
get blurred and the message of the product being sold is better received.

Women buy Vogue Magazine for the ads of fashion. It's not just a female thing.
Some males bought Computer Shopper[1] specifically for the ads. Why would
consumers _pay_ for ads?!? Because they're _relevant_ to their interests.

[1]
[https://www.google.com/search?q=Computer+Shopper+magazine&so...](https://www.google.com/search?q=Computer+Shopper+magazine&source=lnms&tbm=isch)

~~~
gowld
There's a qualitative difference between being interested in learning the
facts of the market -- what's on offer -- and being interested in editorial
content that is actually an ad.

For one, market facts (price, features, etc) are more likely to be honest, and
for two, self-touting advertisements aren't hiding their bias. Advertorial
content is doubly deceptive -- the content is biased AND the bias is hidden.

~~~
YeGoblynQueenne
The difference between computer products and make-up products is that computer
products are aimed at people who think they are too smart to be sold anything
they don't really want, so the advertisement must be subtle.

But that's it. Marketing products means advertising them to consumers. There's
no gettting around that, no matter what the product is.

~~~
Distant_horizon
Respectfully, makeup shoppers are chemists and biologists these days – they
are also unaware that they're being sold, until their bathroom drawer
overflows with $2000 worth of jars.

~~~
YeGoblynQueenne
I did not write that makeup shoppers do not include chemists and biologists.
You're assuming too much.

Edit: and it's very irritating.

------
umvi
I can't tell if this article was the original or if H3H3's video was the
original, but H3H3 also covers this -

[https://youtu.be/3ewyEF3Wd9M](https://youtu.be/3ewyEF3Wd9M)

TL;DW - Youtubers with large young audiences are promoting loot box style
gambling.

Youtube seems like the wild west.

On the dark side we have channels bursting with (possibly) human trafficked
vietnamese women producing sexual content masquerading as slice-of-life, huge
youtubers promoting gambling to children, elsagate, etc.

On the light side we have people's videos being flagged for copyright
violations over literal sounds of nature, music they produced themselves, or
music playing in the background. Also "fair use" doesn't exist on YouTube - a
1 second clip is enough for a company to claim your video apparently.

There are still a lot of niche channels I love on YouTube but I would _never_
want to try to make a living producing content on that platform myself...
seems too volatile.

~~~
qeternity
> On the dark side we have channels bursting with (possibly) human trafficked
> vietnamese women producing sexual content masquerading as slice-of-life

Can you explain for those of us out of the loop...

~~~
QuotedForTruth
paymoneywubby did a video about it [1]. Basically its a woman casually
interacting with her children but behaving in very suggestive ways such as
opening her legs to expose her underwear or seductively washing the car.
Hundreds of videos across lots of channels with one woman, but its part of a
whole lot of "super soft-core" youtube.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc4HzbD0GLI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc4HzbD0GLI)

~~~
jandrese
I guess the target market for this is people trapped behind porn filters that
can still get YouTube? Seems like a very niche market. This is the Internet,
it's not that hard to find porn. If someone is scouring your browser history
those softcore channels don't seem like they would be hiding much, unless they
have titles like "small engine maintenance -- carburetor cleaning".

I'm trying to imagine some 14 year old boy trying to explain to an angry
mother that yes, he's that interested in the boring day to day life details of
an Asian mother.

~~~
QuotedForTruth
They were (just read that youtube took them down) getting millions of views.
From what I understand, ad revenue on a site like youtube is much higher per
view than on adult sites because most advertisers are so reluctant to put
their product next to adult content. I'm not sure who watches them either, but
they were clearly making money producing the content.

~~~
jandrese
Thinking about it some more I bet part of the appeal is the voyeuristic nature
of it. It probably feels a lot more like real life, where you very rarely get
jumped by horny housewives looking for an anonymous lay, and more
realistically get some sideboob or a panty flash from people wearing hot
weather clothes.

But as you note, it's mostly a good deal for the producers that can monetize
the videos a lot easier on a legit platform like YouTube, and there is
probably a reasonably big captive market of people who are trapped behind porn
filters.

------
skocznymroczny
These 'mystery boxes' thing are super common in the gaming world. There are
many websites in which you can bet money to open a mystery box containing a
game, or in case of some games a skin for the game's weapons.

The websites themselves are very manipulative. First of all, many offer a
"test spin", which usually gives you a very good prize just to lure you in.
Secondly, they use popular Youtube personalities to perform "box opening"
videos, they get e.g. 30 free box openings. What isn't told, is that it's
trivial for the mystery box website to boost the winning chance for the
youtuber so that people think "wow, it's so easy, I can win that too".
Thirdly, when doing the spin animation, they usually show you that the prized
possession you were after was just around the corner, you were very close.
Just give it a one more spin, you'll surely get it this time!

~~~
gowld
Back in the legacy world of arcades and carnivals, Mark Rober did some nice
videos about the analog/physic and electronic tricks of scam games:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_ZlWJ3qJI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_ZlWJ3qJI)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXBfwgwT1nQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXBfwgwT1nQ)

It's quite a problem that all these gambling scams are (to more or lesser
extent) regulated in geographic jurisdictions, but Internet-bsaed systems
bypass all local sovereignty.

How long before the governments step up and demand that all Internet
businesses get import licenses and traffic must pass through "customs" at each
ISP "port of entry" for their goods and services?

------
iheartpotatoes
The Paul brothers really give me the creeps. I'm old (50+) and don't
understand them. My hipness crapped out around the time of Jackass on MTV, and
this feels like the rich grandchild of that moment, except now they are
entirely focused on money.

Same goes for PewDiePie. Who the hell sits down to actually watch him? I tried
watching all three, and clearly I'm not their target.

The fame and influence they wield, is it more or less nefarious than using
celebs to market pre 00's? It feels more so to me.

I finally understand the cultural gap my grandparents must have felt when I
played my Atari 2600 all day and they just shook their heads.

~~~
djhworld
> Who the hell sits down to actually watch him?

Children

~~~
quink
PewDiePie skews a bit older than that.

[https://www.dexerto.com/entertainment/pewdiepie-reveals-
his-...](https://www.dexerto.com/entertainment/pewdiepie-reveals-his-channel-
statistics-after-alinity-suggested-all-his-fans-were-9-year-olds-110491)

------
mxscho
Regardless of whether gambling or gambling advertisements are ethically
acceptable: A "provably fair" system [1] ensures that no one is scammed and
the client can be 100% sure that the odds are not manipulated in any way.

However, when examining the "provably fair" system used by this specific site
mysterybrand.net, one can see that the commonly used algorithms have
deliberately been manipulated in a way such that the actual draws done on the
server can be arbitrary without respecting any predeclared odds.

E.g., the verification site just checks whether md5($randomClientSeed +
$publicServerHash) == md5($randomClientSeed + $publicServerHash), based on
things which are all known pre-roll, and which is obviously true, not
involving the $secretServerSeed at all. It's a joke. They even link to the URL
mentioned above, but their implementation is completely wrong.

Still not saying that I am pro/con gambling, but just seeing a website at
least implementing the provably fair system in a non-malicious way, it would
be a start.

[1] [https://dicesites.com/provably-fair](https://dicesites.com/provably-fair)

------
beezischillin
Please change my mind if you believe otherwise but I feel like this is all a
consequence of YouTube completely screwing creators over when it comes to
copyright and ad-revenue. The site's been going downhill since YouTube's
refusal to actually fight for its content creators and decision to run with
big name corporations as their preferred content producers. While corporate
channels are gaining incredible amounts of promotion, immunity and power,
others had their incomes completely gutted.

Some people have seen something like this ahead of many others, people like
LinusTechTips, who, for years now worked on partnerships with companies to
gain relevant sponsors but many others didn't and were hit hard by all this.
YouTube even removed their abilities to link their Patreon as part of their
videos, if I remember correctly.

Realistically speaking, I'm unsure what the real solution to this would be,
other than YouTube doing its best to provide its creators a stable source of
income..

(And on a small side-note: ads on YouTube itself have become quite dodgy, here
in Eastern Europe. I keep seeing video and image ads for shoddy gambling
sites, Russian singles sites (not even kidding!) and weird Jesus-cults. I am
having very real flashbacks to the early 2000s Warez-internet.)

------
pawelk
From the TOS of the company website:

> These terms are interpreted and are subject to the jurisdiction and the laws
> of Poland

Which is really intriguing, since organizing any form of lottery or chance-
based game is so complicated, that virtually nobody who knows anything about
the subject would dare to try.

When I worked in advertising nobody in their right mind would create a
promotional campaign with prizes given away to randomly picked winners, there
had to be objective criteria (skill, talent, popular vote etc). E.g. when we
made a memo-like browser game, the lawyers said we need to show all the cards
for a few seconds, so there's an element of skill (memorization of the board)
instead of chance (the cards being randomly distributed). And if my memory
serves, finishing the game was required to enter the contest, but to win the
prize there was an extra text field where participants had to answer something
like "why would you like to win the prize?", and the best answer, picked by a
jury, was awarded.

There were people playing poker with family and friends raided by police. (I
think poker is now considered at leat partially skill based and some laws were
fixed since).

There were teachers going trough hell when trying to make a simple lottery as
a part of school fund raiser event.

If they really operate in / from Poland, it may not take long for this to get
shut down if the authorities get involved.

Edit: found a detailed overview of the regulations in English here:
[https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/8-635-6028?transi...](https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/8-635-6028?transitionType=Default&contextData=\(sc.Default\)&firstPage=true&comp=pluk&bhcp=1)

~~~
Ralfp
If they are really a lottery, they are betting it on nobody from Poland taking
interest in them, because lotteries in Poland are de-facto state monopoly due
to amount of requirements imposed on lottery organizers:

Lottery draws are done in presence of commission including members of state's
Commission of games and gambling (Komisja gier i zakładów - KGiZ).

Commission members are named in document describing game's terms and
conditions.

Commission records and protocols drawing process, and stores those because
lottery participants have unconditional right to request access to them.

Possible fines went into millions of PLN - enough to sink small company and
piss off larger one.

I've been working at advertising agency doing lotteries for certain big home
brand. The way we did that was paying 3rd party company with ties to KGiZ for
organizing those, because it was crazy to try doing it otherwise.

------
porpoisely
Other than being youtubers, what's the difference between them and NJTransit
promoting DraftKings for months?

TV networks and media outlets like thedailybeast also push gambling ads to
casinos, vegas, online gambling, etc.

~~~
TheAdamist
Casinos, and maybe draft kings are regulated on how much they have to pay out,
and actually do pay out. These sites may not bother to pay out, and who knows
the odds...

------
Simon_says
I was curious about the videos in question. This is Jake Pauls':
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wO2RIEKMSg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wO2RIEKMSg)

It's so awful! How is this so popular?

~~~
CSMastermind
[https://youtu.be/fTu8jzVXTi0](https://youtu.be/fTu8jzVXTi0)

It's popular among children who like the high energy, intense emotions, and
jump cuts. They also mix in base humor while heavily cross promoting among
themselves. So their viewers feel like they're part of team or a movement or
whatever.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
It's fashion, crossed with cult.

The death of fixed-timetable broadcast TV feeds in to it too - as with soap
operas it gives people some common ground to use in social situations (kids at
school, for example).

------
losthobbies
A youtuber called tmartn got into trouble doing something akin to gambling and
lootboxes a few years ago. So scummy considering most of his subscribers were
kids.

~~~
gizmo385
tmartn's trouble was especially disgusting because he owned the site that we
was "advertising" that he had "found".

------
xg15
I find the linked tweets from another Youtuber [1] and a random person [2]
quite informative about the mentality that is apparently present in the
Youtuber sphere. Reminder: this is about channels with a significant
acknowledged underage audience.

[1]
[https://mobile.twitter.com/KEEMSTAR/status/10802743994109542...](https://mobile.twitter.com/KEEMSTAR/status/1080274399410954240)

[2]
[https://mobile.twitter.com/protecdaniel/status/1080384613988...](https://mobile.twitter.com/protecdaniel/status/1080384613988524033)

------
NelsonMinar
This is straight up evil and Google and the shills for the gambling should all
be held accountable.

------
jdlyga
PewDiePie just called them out in his latest video.

------
dspillett
The linked site seems broken ATM (no certificate being served, page content
blank), but the WBM has it:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20190103122009/https://www.theda...](https://web.archive.org/web/20190103122009/https://www.thedailybeast.com/youtubes-
biggest-stars-are-pushing-a-shady-polish-gambling-site)

------
nichochar
This has been an ongoing issue in the world of CSGO for a very long time, and
CS is finally slowly beating it. It took a lot of great journalism from
Richard Lewis to beat it.

If you're curious you can for example check out this video
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFpwOzfXErs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFpwOzfXErs)

------
rhacker
The television industry has had many years to build out rules/regs and basic
standards for content. Is it time to start treating youtube posters as
television stations and regulate them similarly?

------
bluetidepro
[a bit of a tangent rant here]

Beyond how despicable it is that these YouTube "stars" are promoting this,
it's really interesting to see how these concept of a website even came about.
I don't know much about the origins of it, but I'm going to assume they took a
play from the modern gaming industry playbook. It was only a matter of time
that someone realized modern gaming companies are "geniuses" in their
execution of this same thing in their games. It's crazy that these gaming
companies are causing such big problems for our youth by all the
microtransactions and addiction problems in their triple A title games. I know
some countries have done a great job regulated it (Germany, I believe?), but
that regulation really needs to make its way to the USA to kill off these
greedy parasites. It really is starting to be a black cloud around a lot of
the modern gaming industry. I would rather pay double the price of a game
(~$60), and have no microtransactions at all, vs these games that charge full
price and then put have the content behind a paywall of microtransactions --
cosmetic or not. /rant haha

~~~
jdietrich
It's kinda Valve's fault. Team Fortress 2 was the first major game in the west
to implement loot boxes; the CS:GO skins economy spawned a legion of scummy
third-party gambling sites, from which this site is clearly derived.

Weirdly, it may also partly be the fault of former Greek finance minister
Yanis Varoufakis.

[http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/it-all-began-
with-a...](http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/it-all-began-with-a-
strange-email/)

~~~
leppr
Isn't it ironic to blame Valve, when they're pretty much the only ones doing
it right ?

By restricting microtransactions to cosmetic elements, the thing they play on
is one's vanity. Players who are content exploring the gameplay can do so
unencumbered. There is no "special club" for players who buy items. They don't
beat you more easily in the games. The main focus is still on winning the
matches.

There is no incentive to buy those cosmetic items except players thinking "I
want to look cool". Whatever Valve may do, that's not a vice they are
responsible for creating, or that anyone is ever exempt from (we all have to
buy clothes). They merely brought it, opt-in, to their games.

~~~
jdietrich
"I want to look cool" is a _very_ strong motivation. A particularly rare and
sought-after CS:GO skin could be worth as much as $2000. Valve actively
support the exchange of virtual items for real money via the Community Market,
and provide market access to third-party sites via an API.

That combination of factors has created a hive of scum and villainy. CS:GO
skins became the ideal unit of value for unregulated gambling sites - they're
highly liquid, they have a stable value, they're freely exchangeable for real
money and there's no KYC or age verification checks.

The mechanics and appearance of Mystery Brand are almost identical to numerous
existing CS:GO gambling sites; they even use the same colour-coding for the
rarity of items. Some CS:GO gambling sites already offer real-world prizes
like electronics and designer clothing.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_gambling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_gambling)

[https://hellcase.com/en/open/knifelife](https://hellcase.com/en/open/knifelife)

[https://www.csgolive.com/case/Millionaire%20Case%20%28vIRL%2...](https://www.csgolive.com/case/Millionaire%20Case%20%28vIRL%29)

~~~
leppr
Your thesis rests on the opinion that merely "creating freely exchangable
tokens of value" is a sin in itself.

I'm sure that's a defensible position, but far from common sense. I certainly
don't agree with it.

~~~
TheBeardKing
The issue is that children should not have access to gamble with real world
currency.

------
vorpalhex
YouTube is a website that entirely fulfills the idea that no publicity is bad
publicity.

Which is a shame, because there's shows like Binging with Babish which are
quite nice.

edit - remove comment because apparently Logan Paul and Jake Paul are not the
same person, they just seem like it.

~~~
smcl
That was a different Paul brother - Logan Paul - albeit he's an equally awful
person.

