
The Priest of Abu Ghraib - colossal
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/priest-abu-grahib-180971013/
======
sunils34
This was hauntingly beautiful. A story of conscience and reconciliation with
the paradoxes of war and personal spirituality/religion.

His decision to join the war as an interrogator, believing his presence and
oversight would ensure the humane treatment of prisoners is admirable. I often
wonder what is the right thing to do: non-participation, or conscientious
participation to ensure abuses are minimized.

~~~
azimovsky
> A story of conscience

I'm surprised you see this. I see it differently. Excuse my language, but I
see a horse-shit sandwich. Have you read any Noam Chomsky? This is a great
example of 'Manufacturing Consent' \- through these feel good propaganda
manufactured stories. Yes, I do think he believed his struggle was holy and
justified. Yes, I am aware that this sounds harsh.

For an honest confrontation with our very real Global North shadow watch this:
[https://vimeo.com/242569435](https://vimeo.com/242569435)

~~~
azimovsky
Wow I did not read the whole article. But's it's actually pretty moving... Ok
fuck it. I'm going to do a pluralist 'both/and'. It's both a horse-shit
sandwich and a story of conscience.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5xfBtD6rLY&vl=en](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5xfBtD6rLY&vl=en)

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dpeck
The notion that its better to have "good" people doing bad things than "bad"
people is such a trash take, but it shows up in nearly every conversation of
moral consequence these days.

~~~
azimovsky
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere
insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them
from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts
through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece
of his own heart?” ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Our collective unconscious, our collective shadow:
[https://vimeo.com/242569435](https://vimeo.com/242569435)

~~~
Mediterraneo10
Funny that you would quote Solzhenitsyn, who in the last years of his life
went hard-core Russian nationalist extremist and indeed called for separating
certain people from the rest of us and destroying them (only this time it
would be a “Christian state” doing the destroying, and not the godless USSR,
so it would all be OK).

~~~
azimovsky
This is exactly what I think he is trying to say - and of course he is no
exception to this rule. Are you equating his behavior with him being a
failure, discrediting his work? This angle is a bit too black and white /
dualistic for me.

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watwut
Such a great godlike compassionate gentle guy ... working in Abu Ghraib
without noting abuses and reporting them or even figuring out why that damm
prisoner cries.

I don't think I would have courage to report in such situation. Socialization
that makes it all normal and very real consequences whistleblowers get would
stop me.

The issue is not dude. That issue is article writer trying to frame that work
as something gentle glossing over the actual reality of the situation.

~~~
azimovsky
> writer trying to frame that work as something gentle glossing over the
> actual reality of the situation.

100%. [https://vimeo.com/242569435](https://vimeo.com/242569435) shows this.

“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere
insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them
from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts
through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece
of his own heart?” ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

------
runarb
That he was able to get such good results from his interrogation using
kindness and dialog instead of violence is interesting. This is apparently a
known effect. Was a very interesting article posted here some time ago
describing similar techniques that I found fascinating:
[https://psmag.com/social-justice/nazi-interrogator-
revealed-...](https://psmag.com/social-justice/nazi-interrogator-revealed-
value-kindness-84747)

------
spacedog11
What a fascinating story. Thank you for sharing. I cried towards the end as I
was learning about Casteel's death. I was hoping for a plot twist, because all
along Casteel was described in the past tense, so I knew from the beginning
that he might not be still alive but deep inside I was hoping that he is still
alive. I was hoping for paragraph that says "and now Casteel is..."

It sucks to lose someone with such integrity, values and good character. I
feel like I have known him personally. May he rest in peace.

~~~
jacquesm
> It sucks to lose someone with such integrity, values and good character.

Sorry? Who with 'integrity, values and good character' joins an interrogation
squad?

~~~
Topolomancer
While I can understand your sentiment, it might also well be possible that
such a person might be convinced of the righteousness of their cause. The
article even gives some quotes along those lines. To paraphrase: "it's better
if someone like me does the interrogation than someone who does not care about
the Geneva convention".

I think it is very hard to judge the motivations of people from the outside.
The whole point of the article was to illustrate how torn you can be between
your convictions, what you want to do, and what you actually do.

Most of us are very lucky insofar as we do not have to face such tough
choices.

~~~
jacquesm
I really don't care if they are convinced of the righteousness of their cause.
History is rife with examples of people who were convinced of the
righteousness, that does not excuse them even a little bit.

> Most of us are very lucky insofar as we do not have to face such tough
> choices.

That's why we talk about the ones who did. Since conscription in the US ended
quite a while ago _all_ of this is free choice.

~~~
Topolomancer
Fair enough; you have given me a lot to think about---thank you!

One more thing, though: I am not sure it is always that much of a free choice
(even given the fact that no conscription exists). There might be economic
reasons for joining the military, for example. However, since I am not a U.S.
citizen, I am not sure how much of an issue this actually is.

~~~
jacquesm
We had conscription here back in the 80's when my number came up I refused to
join the army. There was a considerable price to pay including a possible jail
term but there is nothing that would cause me to go and kill/harm others
without a good enough reason.

~~~
Topolomancer
Interesting! I admire the strength of your moral conviction! Having grown up
in a generation without conscription (I did not even have a normal military
service, thankfully).

~~~
jacquesm
Mine was one of the last years that it was still active.

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tlanc
This was a very moving piece, beautifully written. The story itself reminds me
of a parable. Thank you for posting.

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wespiser_2018
War is hell. Such a beautiful story of being true to your self and finding
your war through the anger and confusion of everything that influences us.
Such a loss we lost this man, and many others like him, to environmental and
chemical exposure issues in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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jacquesm
What a fucking whitewash. Anybody joining an interrogation squad knows what's
ahead and those joining the group in Abu Ghraib, especially after the torture
revelations really had no excuse. I feel about as much sympathy as I would
towards a Nazi camp guard (sorry for the Godwin, but it seems applicable).

~~~
azimovsky
Yup. For anyone who can't see this, or is offended by the above comment,
please check this out:
[https://vimeo.com/242569435](https://vimeo.com/242569435)

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fierro
incredible piece. If you are thinking of reading this, and have a spare 20
minutes, commit.

~~~
azimovsky
I wouldn't waste your time. Watch this instead, it's only 13 minutes long:
[https://vimeo.com/242569435](https://vimeo.com/242569435)

