

Editor of HTML5 questions need for alt text in movie poster frames - pufuwozu
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10642#c0

======
pornel
Isn't he simply questioning an assumption? (assumption being that every bit of
image always needs an alternative that is not in normal flow of page)

Ian's often repeated naive-sounding "Why would you do that? What's the use
case?" has shot down many feature requests that seemed good in theory, but
weren't that useful in practice.

Perhaps description of the video makes description of poster redundant? Maybe
one can use ARIA? Maybe media framework can extract description from the video
file?

Even if there is a way to describe the poster, will authors actually care to
do it? Will they ignore it (naively assuming blind users don't watch videos)
or fill it with boilerplate?

~~~
jhuckestein
Ian said "Why would you (a blind user) want to know what the poster frame is?
How does it affect you?"

That is NOT questioning an assumption. He seems to imply that blind users have
no use for an information that is interesting to _other_ people.

~~~
pornel
_Is_ it interesting?

Would you be interested in description of image representing video if you
could get description of the actual video?

— I watched a funny video!

— Cool! What was on the poster image?

~~~
jhuckestein
The OP of the issue decides on which movies to watch based on the poster
image's alt description. Movies can also be watched online.

Poster images for videos are also part of journalistic publications, where the
poster also works as a still image and conveys meaning or illustrates a point
of the story.

~~~
pornel
You're describing a real movie poster, which is a different thing from HTML5
poster frame:

> The image given by the poster attribute, the poster frame, is intended to be
> a representative frame of the video (typically one of the first non-blank
> frames) that gives the user an idea of what the video is like.
> ([http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-
> work/multipage/...](http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-
> work/multipage/video.html#attr-video-poster))

------
js2
Flagged for misleading title. How about "Editor of HTML5 questions need for
alt text in movie poster frames." This would 1) be less editorializing; 2)
make this a submission of a technical issue as opposed to a submission
questioning Ian's competence.

------
RyanMcGreal
"I give you a very classy example: Casablanca"

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_%28film%29>

I had to check this out. The alt text on the images really are excellent.

~~~
extension
OTOH, it kind of goes to Hickson's point that describing frames of movies to
the blind is not very useful when the frame is only there to give a hint of
what the movie looks like. Do I really care that Casablanca contains a shot
with "a man standing next to another man looking at two other men with people
in the background" or some such?

~~~
jhuckestein
The OP of the issue explained that he often uses the alt descriptions of movie
posters to decide which movie he wants to see in the theatre.

~~~
olavk
But that has nothing to do with the 'poster' attribute on the 'video' element!
Despite its name, this attribute is not intended for picture of a poster for
the movie. It is intended for a preview frame to show in the player before the
movie starts playing - the spec suggests one of the first non-blank frames of
the video.

It's not like they suddenly want to disallow alt text on movie posters on the
web.

~~~
philbo
As a sighted user, I can look at the preview image of an embedded video and
that may influence whether or not I decide to play the video.

Why should a user with impaired vision be denied the same opportunity?

~~~
olavk
Nobody wants to deny users anything. It is not really a question of pro or con
accessibility despite the editorializing in the HN headline. Its a question of
content versus presentation.

The first-frame preview is an artifact of the visual presentation of the video
player and not relevant for non-sighted users, just as the colors used in css
is not relevant for non-sighted users. The actual content is the video, and if
you want to make that accessible you should follow the recommendations in the
spec and " _provide alternative media streams and/or to embed accessibility
aids (such as caption or subtitle tracks, audio description tracks, or sign-
language overlays) into their media streams_ ".

------
jhuckestein
There is a significant difference between the title and what's in the poster
image. One commenter on the thread pointed to the Casablanca Wikipedia page.

The "poster" image for Casablanca has an alt text: _"Black-and-white film
screenshot with the title of the film in fancy font. Below it is the text "A
Warner Bros. - First National Picture". In the background is a crowded
nightclub filled with many people."_ If you imagine a movie being embedded in
a webpage, that might be the alt text for the poster image whereas the title
might be "Casablanca".

------
wccrawford
I'm not surprised that he has trouble understanding that. The 'meaning' of the
poster frame isn't clear from that conversation. Does he want a description of
what's being displayed in just the poster frame? How does this differ from the
title of the video?

For example:

Title: Cat jumping on bed

Frame: Image of cat jumping towards bed

Video: Cat jumps toward bed and lands on it.

The vast majority of the time, the poster frame isn't going to be different
than the title of the video.

Now, I agree that when it is different, there should be a way to specify an
alt text for it. But to require it when it's the same as the title seems silly
to me.

~~~
bapadna
To use a non-hypothetical example, right now I'm watching a series:

Title: Dexter. Description: A likable Miami police forensics expert moonlights
as a serial killer of criminals who he believes have escaped justice.

The exact episode also has those attributes:

Title: My Bad. Description: In the aftermath of last season's chilling finale,
Rita's death has left Dexter feeling responsible, possibly even...guilty.
Unable to deal with the trauma, Dexter makes a drastic decision that will
impact everyone around him. Quinn stirs up trouble at the station when he
notes that Rita's murder, which is being pinned on the Trinity Killer, doesn't
fit his normal murder profile. Things get even more heated when Quinn suggests
to LaGuerta that they look at the husband: Dexter Morgan. Meanwhile, Quinn
offers Debra much needed support, causing her to see Quinn in a new light.

\----

Simply put, titles and descriptions are not the same thing. It seems silly to
me that somebody would advocate that they should be treated as the same thing
just because there is overlap when the content is a 15 second video of a cat.

~~~
pornel
Your descriptions describe video, not poster frame.

The issue is only about describing poster frame of the video (a placeholder
picture that is displayed before user hits 'play').

~~~
bapadna
Poster frame for the episode:

Title: Dexter - My Bad.

Description: Dexter stands in a dank, dirty, dimly lit public bathroom,
gripping a fishing anchor, a malevolent look in his eyes.

------
devmonk
Wow. :( "I'm confused. Why would you (a blind user) want to know what the
poster frame is? How does it affect you?"

That is pretty bad.

I think they need a group of people with disabilities to review all of the
specs. There have to be many more issues like this lurking (that those with
disabilities could probably already point me to).

~~~
rimantas

      Wow. :( "I'm confused. Why would you (a blind user) want to
      know what the poster frame is? How does it affect you?"
    

There are real needs and perceived needs. Trying to understand the potential
use cases is not bad in any way.

~~~
jrwoodruff
You're probably right, and I sure hope that's what he's doing. I have to admit
it did come across pretty bad when I read it though :)

~~~
amackera
I think it probably sounded that way due to the editorializing of the
headline. If instead it had read "Editor of HTML5 tries hard to gain a better
understanding of potential use cases facing people with disabilities" you
might have read it differently.

------
gojomo
The submission title, "Editor of HTML5 (Ian Hickson) shows poor understanding
of accessibility", is unnecessarily personalizing, editorializing, and
polarizing.

It's likely Hickson's questions, and reluctance to accept a specific proposal
without more data, are a matter of seeking understanding, and working through
different ideas about what the proper significance and use of a 'poster' image
for video might be.

(A better title might be: "Debating fine points of HTML5 accessibility: video
'poster' images and alt taxt".)

------
olalonde
This really inspired me to write meaningful alternative texts (alt) on images.
Never realized how important they were to the blind.

------
bphogan
This type of editorializing is absolutely out of line. Ian is obviously trying
to understand the other side, which is more than many developers ever try to
do. As a low vision user of the web since its beginnings, I have encountered
site after site designed for low vision and blind users based on advice and
recommendations from people with good eyesight.

You can't understand what a person needs unless you ask them directly. That's
what Mr. Hickson is doing here.

And lets not forget the more important matter - videos need transcripts so
that the blind _and_ deaf can follow along.

A few days ago I asked for feedback on how I might better explain
accessibility to developers over at
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1716463> \- issues like this are exactly
the kind of stuff I was looking for. Feel free to leave comments there if you
have them.

------
shaunfs
Unfortunately the SEO industry will make this a pain for all of us just like
they did with stuffing image alt text in the early 2000's.

