

Ask HN: Looking for advice on manufacturing a physical product - 3dFlatLander

I have an idea for a small electronic device, and I'd really like to see it escape into reality.<p>Seeing as this is a physical product, I'm completely lost. The fact it's an electronic device has also hindered my search for information. I've found lots of companies that, when supplied with CAD files, will create a prototype, but they don't seem to do electronic devices. I wouldn't even know how to turn the electronics portion of this into a proper schematic or CAD file.<p>I'm guessing the most logical thing to do would be to outsource the thing to an overseas engineer to create a proper schematic, and then go to china for production. But, I'd really like to stick to north america if possible.<p>Has anyone done anything like this on an individual level? Is it even possible?
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baran
One of my good friends (graduate student) is getting started as a consultant
doing this kind of work. He is one of the smartest hardware guys I know. He
would be more than willing to do the job for a low fee, also he is my roomate
so I'm sure I can get you a YC discount :) Check my profile for an email.

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onoj
For the size you are proposing, anything other than a few resistors is out of
the question. Depending on the concept though, I have seen prototypes made on
watch PCBs if they can work using an existing electronic design. The trade-off
is as follows - a factory/development house can make the prototype for you IF
you order the final product through them in sufficient quantities. If not -
custom IC/PCB design plus casing for 100 units will cost around 50 000 USD
(again - this really depends on complexity and function) And that is the china
price. I live there. I do this for a living. Best place to feel your way is
the Hong Kong Trade Development Council or the Productivity council. I mention
these so that you can get some perspective.
<http://www.hkpc.org/html/eng/common/index.jsp>

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gte910h
Hire a small shop to do it for you. These guys do this sort of thing

<http://www.tieronedesign.com/>

Not cheap to do mind you and I'm not sure they do china manufacture but may do
domestic.

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djm
_Has anyone done anything like this on an individual level? Is it even
possible?_

Of course! Google Mitch Altman and TV-be-gone. I imagine there are very many
others too.

~~~
3dFlatLander
I googled the name, and rediscovered this interview:
[http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4600578110948529551...](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4600578110948529551&ei=I6vJSo75CpOKqQOn06CQBg)

Great stuff, thanks!

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joe_bleau
Of course it is possible! I've worked with several turnkey contract
manufacturers in the US that would be happy to build 100 circuit boards. Some
will even do PCB layout and help with circuit design. Mechanically, places
like protomold and quickparts are a good source at low volumes, especially if
you can hand them a CAD file of the enclosure design.

If you're looking for someone to help you out, go where those people hang out:
places like sci.electronics.design on usenet, Circuit Cellar Ink forums
(<http://bbs.circuitcellar.com/phpbb/>), Embedded.com forums
(<http://www.embedded.com/tigforums/index.jspa?categoryID=1>), and maybe even
chat rooms like #edev.

If you're looking at less than 10k units, I doubt it's worth the effort to go
off-shore.

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avrPhreaque
Do you have a NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement)? That is absolutely essential to
protect you from someone just taking your idea and running with it. With IP
(Intellectual Property) Law, intent is a very important aspect, and an NDA
signifies intent.

There are numerous free resources on the Web which can help you develop a
workable NDA. If you email me at tjkeller@inebraska.com, I will reply with a
copy of the NDA I developed for my product idea.

As regards the development of your prototype, given the informatyion you have
provided, it is going to be expensive using commercial services to get such a
prototype fabricated. This is because you don't have a designed and tested
circuit from which the engineers can product printed circuit boards (PCBs) and
finshed product from.

Email me, we can talk further.

Tom Keller aka: avrPhreaque tjkeller@inebraska.com

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sparky
A few exploratory questions:

    
    
       * What is the nature of the electronic device?  A PCB?  A chip?  One or several PCBs integrated with a case, batteries, buttons, etc (i.e. a finished end product or prototype of one)?
       * Do you need to outsource because you don't know how to put your design in a form industry-standard CAD tools can understand, or because you are not an electronics guy at all and need somebody to design the thing themselves?
       * What kind of volume do you need?  1 prototype, a small run of prototypes, a production run of an existing prototype?
       * Similar to #1: Is it electronics only, or do you also need molded plastic, machined metal parts, etc?
    
    
    

In most cases, it is definitely possible given a little knowledge and a lot of
tenacity for dealing with (sometimes several) small companies to get the job
done.

~~~
3dFlatLander
I can do a basic bread board, but that's about it. The product is a spin on an
existing product (no IP issues I know of, as it's a product that is
manufactured and sold under many forms by many companies).

As far as volume is concerned, I'd like to get a prototype in hand first, and
then produce a run of 100.

It's electronics are minimal (a timer/clock, about 10k of memory), but need to
be put in space about 1-2 cubic cm. Power will be external to this small
space, as will a few other components that the electronics will control. It
will require both molded plastic and machined metal.

I'd love to give more details, but I'm really surprised no one has jumped on
the idea yet.

~~~
sparky
Your best bet is going to be teaming up with somebody who does this sort of
thing (electrical/mechanical prototyping) for a living (there are a few
individual consultants and small consulting firms, some of them suggested
elsewhere in this thread).

1-2 cm^3 is going to seriously limit the consultants who will be able to help
you, and the manufacturers who will be able to produce the thing. The
consultants specialize in low-volume designs, which typically mean that size
and efficiency are not first-order concerns. Likewise, quick-turn PCB houses
are not likely to make you 1 or 2 of something this small, as their tooling is
not set up for it (not the common case for their market), and I would imagine
similar constraints are present on the mechanical/assembly side.

If you feel comfortable learning PCB design, at least to do the non-space-
critical "other components", these are some good resources:

[http://www.alternatezone.com/electronics/files/PCBDesignTuto...](http://www.alternatezone.com/electronics/files/PCBDesignTutorialRevA.pdf)
<http://www.pcbdesign.org/> <http://www.smps.us/pcb-design.html>

As far as software, you can try PCB123's (<http://www.pcb123.com/>) free
software if (and only if) you want to use them to manufacture your boards.
Otherwise, I'd go with Altium Designer
([http://www.altium.com/products/altium-designer/en/altium-
des...](http://www.altium.com/products/altium-designer/en/altium-
designer_home.cfm)) (used to be Protel) personally, but other options are gEDA
(GPL EDA suite), Orcad, PADS, and Eagle. Other than gEDA (obviously), the for-
pay CAD packages are pricey, though there are usually student discounts if
that applies to you.

~~~
FEBlog
I am looking for ways to do this kind of prototyping in small volumes 2, 3 or
5 cm3 and I might need to use flexibel PCB how much harder would this be?

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DeadlyBrad42
I've never used them, but <http://www.pad2pad.com/> always seemed like an
interesting website. Download their application, design the board, and place
an order.

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d4nt
Years ago I worked for a startup that built industrial printing machines (I
did the touch screen control panel bit) but the guys sitting next to me we're
working on circuit board design. We had our circuit boards pressed by an
outside company. The guys were always getting one-offs of different designs
made, usually for free as a "sample". If you have an idea of what chips you
want, you might want to try phoning up a salesman at a reseller and asking
about circuit board pressing too. If they don't do it, they probably know
someone who does.

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gscott
Kenton Oakes (lvpottery@yahoo.com) can help you get it done in China, he just
spent 4 months there getting another product manufactured and learned a great
deal from the experience.

Getting things done here in the States... just getting someone to take the job
even with unlimited funds it is next to impossible.

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cwan
Quite fortuitously, there was an article Friday in BusinessWeek on the
subject:
[http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2009/sb20091...](http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2009/sb2009102_031287.htm)

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jlf
I know a guy here in the States who would probably be glad to work up
something for you at a reasonable price. My contact info is in my profile if
you'd like me to put you in touch with him.

