
China Cracks Down on Politically Incorrect Maps - qzervaas
http://www.citylab.com/politics/2015/12/china-cracks-down-on-politcally-incorrect-maps/421032/
======
marshray
Back in the early 90's (in the US) I had a friend who was a college student
from China. In the common area of her dorm there was a huge wall-size Rand-
McNally map of the world. We were looking it over.

"There's China" I said. "And there's Taiwan."

"You know Taiwan is really not that big." she said.

"What do you mean?"

"Map makers show it larger than it really is in order to exaggerate its
importance."

I was a little weirded out by that idea. This girl was pretty intelligent, she
seemed to know some math and logical thinking. She was in the process of
becoming a CPA.

For better or worse I responded with practical analysis: "How would that even
work? You and I could go buy maps right now for navigating ships and
airplanes, those would have to be accurate in order to function. We could
compare them to this one and if they are noticeably different we could
complain and the company that made the map would lose face. Why would Rand-
McNally give a shit about the political importance of Taiwan anyway, enough to
risk their own credibility?"

"They just do. All map makers do this."

She would not be convinced.

~~~
nflknfk
Similar experience(s):

I went to the University of Washington, at which an extremely high percentage
of the students were Chinese (I want to say between 30% and 40%). Taiwan and
the South China Sea are definite hotbutton issues. Once during an
international relations lecture of about 200 people, the professor made the
mistake of mentioning Taiwan which caused one of the Chinese students to stand
up and begin talking very loudly (shouting?) at the professor for what must
have been a good three minutes, informing him that Taiwan is not the real
China. It was pretty painful to watch considering he was one of the most
senior professors within that department, and very well versed on the subject.

Then I also had a Chinese roommate freshman year and there were always
oddities like "those people at Tiananmen had it coming." Lots of little things
that added up over time.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
UW has never had that high percentage of Chinese students; from the
demographics report:

[http://www.washington.edu/omad/files/2015/02/2015-01-09-UW-S...](http://www.washington.edu/omad/files/2015/02/2015-01-09-UW-
State-of-Diversity.pdf)

So they (Asians, other) are at 21.5% in 2014/15\. Note that international has
its own separate slice, at 14.7%, that isn't broken down. So...that means all
that 21.5% are American, possibly of Chinese descent, which is far away from
Chinese nationals.

UW is a commuter school, I think 75% of the students live at home even. So if
you were living on campus, your view of the demographics would be a bit
skewed. Incidentally, in 2013, UW admitted a class of 6,255, 687 of which were
Chinese, roughly 10%, which still isn't shabby:

[http://www.washington.edu/news/2013/10/14/uw-
fall-2013-enrol...](http://www.washington.edu/news/2013/10/14/uw-
fall-2013-enrollment-largest-freshman-class-ever/)

~~~
nflknfk
What many of them do, including my former roommate, is to move over here
during their sophomore or junior years of high school so they can achieve
resident status in the state of Washington and get cheap college tuition. So
going by those numbers you found, the true percentage is probably between 25%
and 30%.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Something else is going on. Either they are on an F-1 visa, paying out-of-
state rates, they are illegal (doubtful these days), or...they have green
cards (or even have citizenship). You can't pay in-state tuition on a student
visa. If they have green cards, they are technically immigrants (though still
Chinese nationals, for sure), and are on the hook to pay taxes in the US on
worldwide income. (other visas can get you resident status, but none are
related to education, perhaps if they are really rich they could get investor
visas...but then money would be the least of their problems).

------
marme
Another big thing with china is that they consider all maps and satellite pics
to be state secrets that require strict approval before being published. If
you ever look on google maps, the satellite pics dont match up up the maps
pics. Most are off by at least 100 ft and that is because all the map data
china releases has the coordinates randomly changed by a random amount in a
random direction and it is different for every city. Baidu maps does not have
this problem because they actual had people sit down and manually correct all
the maps to match up with the satellite pics but the gps coordinates are still
wrong so when you look on your phone you are rarely ever in the correct
position on the map

~~~
jpatokal
The offsets are not random, but algorithmic, using the GCJ-02 datum. Of
course, legal access to use the GCJ-02 algorithms requires that you kowtow to
the Chinese government:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_dat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_data_in_China)

~~~
csours
> It uses an encryption algorithm[13] which adds apparently random offsets to
> both the latitude and longitude, with the alleged goal of improving national
> security.

You're both right! It uses reversible randomness apparently. Wonder how hard
the algorithm and seed(s) are to figure out

~~~
poizan42
> reversible randomness

Yeah, we have a word for that: encryption

------
tokenadult
China takes this issue seriously because it has government censorship of many
kinds of publications, and in international law, maps matter. (A map can
indicate acquiescence to another country's territorial claim, so dictatorships
that have territorial disputes with other countries censor maps.) There have
been submissions to Hacker News about this issue before, and I have commented
on those submissions from this standpoint of international law.[1][2] See also
the Reuters news story "China tightens rules on maps amid territorial
disputes"[3] (16 December 2015).

In countries that are not dictatorships, national officials may announce that
they refuse to accept certain territorial claims, and simply make sure that
officially published maps support the country's view of territorial claims.
That can include a country publishing maps that say "boundary representations
are not necessarily authoritative" when the country's government has no
settled opinion on territorial disputes regarded by other countries. If you
have access to maps published by a variety of official and nonofficial
publishers, you can compare for yourself how different publishers treat the
issue of territorial claims in the South China Sea (the example that is
prominent in today's article) or in the border region of Nicaragua and Costa
Rica (the earlier example cited below) or in Palestine (the later example
cited below). You could also look up Kashmir on a lot of different maps and
look for border details on those maps.

[1] 1387 days ago, comments to submission "The First Google Maps War" from the
opinion page of the New York Times:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3645784#up_3645845](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3645784#up_3645845)

[2] 958 days ago, comments to submission "Google changes Palestinian location
from 'Territories' to 'Palestine' from the BBC:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5651456#up_5651804](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5651456#up_5651804)

[3] [http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-maps-
idUSKBN0TZ1AR20...](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-maps-
idUSKBN0TZ1AR20151216)

~~~
steve19
This so-called international law is often repeated online, with no evidence
that random consumer maps have ever been used to resolve a dispute.

If official government maps shows a certain boundary it is evidence that the
government at some point in time accepted that as fact (or pretended to accept
it as fact).

Consumer maps are probably meaningless unless the government or local
officials were using them and they had no official maps to contradict the
unofficial consumer maps. I vaguely recall some embarrassment in India where
officials were using unsanctioned maps (but I can't find a link).

As far as I can tell consumer maps (not used by officials) have never been
used in an international court to prove a boundary. They can be, at worst,
propaganda. There is not, as far as I can tell, any UN or other international
treaty which mandate that any rabdom map is evidence of boundaries.

In the Shebaa farms dispute, for example, Israel and UN officials cited
official Lebanese military maps as evidence [0].

tldr; It is enough for China to police official government maps and the use of
maps by officials, without confiscating maps tourists bring in ... unless it's
all about propaganda to support spurious claims, which of course it is.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_farms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_farms)

------
Manishearth
Nowhere near this level, but India is pretty sensitive about maps too.

When entering the country the first "forbidden" item listed on the customs
form isn't drugs or other illegal things, it's "Maps and literature where
Indian external boundaries have been shown incorrectly".

Of course, I doubt they enforce that, especially since anyone with a phone who
has opened Google/Bing/Apple Maps while in a different country probably has
the "incorrect" boundaries cached on their phone when they enter.

(we have some border disputes with Pakistan and China)

------
fungi
Several years ago the Chinese government was confiscating lonely planet travel
guides at the border

[http://www.theage.com.au/news/news/hide-the-guide-warns-
lone...](http://www.theage.com.au/news/news/hide-the-guide-warns-lonely-
planet/2007/11/15/1194766854001.html)

~~~
haylem
Indeed. I studied in China for a year (in 2005) and I remember that amongst
the recommendations for travelers, one was to avoid showing your travel guides
- or at least the maps - as most would raise eyebrows. I remember covering
Taiwan on the map with my hand a few times when asking other college students
about recommendations for holiday travels, so they wouldn't pick up on it.

On the other hand, it's not like it was grounds for paranoia either: that was
usually a good conversation starter on the train. There's a wide disconnect
between what the government says it will enforce, what it actually enforces,
and what people actually think.

You could get into some weird conversations, but I generally did not come
across much animosity because of these maps. Awkwardness, at worst. If there
was any, you'd simply back out and apologize for the map being inaccurate.

------
viraptor
Were there any issues with people having/using openstreetmaps? I believe
they're just ignoring the law and provide maps without the offset, but I
haven't heard of china blocking access to the project.

~~~
kijin
Oh, they'll block it if it gets any sort of traction. Right now OpenStreetMap
is probably not even worth the CPU cycles it takes to add it to the GFW
blacklist.

------
Retric
Reason 5,237 why doing buisnees with China is a bad idea.

~~~
est
I think Internet companies could consider a budget to lobby chinese
government. Facebook, Google ramp up their efforts to lobby DC after CISPA.

~~~
gherkin0
Genuine question: how exactly would a foreign "internet company" "lobby the
Chinese government?" Google literally had to take their ball and leave China
at one point because China wouldn't compromise on a lot of things.

~~~
est
First of all, The Google case is a long story. It boils down to Google HQ,
especially the three founders, didn't grant much power to local team. I
remember there was a news report that one of Google China's partners was
trying to lobby a chinese official by gifting gifting the latest iPad, Brin
heard that and shutdown that operation completely. While I appreciate the
moral high ground and respect FCPA laws, the problem is that other US
companies and non-US companies, can and successfully exploited this chinese
"culture" and influenced policy makers.

Secondly, for every hostile Chinese policy, there must be someone benefited.
Local Chinese internet giants are actively exploiting every possible way to
lobby policies for their own good. US capitals can deploy lobby operations via
VIE.

Finally, the thing that troubles me is that after all these years, Google is
making a coming back to China[1], I mean wtf? seriously? Many hardcore Google
fans in China a disguised by this awful act.

[1] [http://www.theverge.com/2015/9/4/9262479/google-china-app-
st...](http://www.theverge.com/2015/9/4/9262479/google-china-app-store-
possible-fall-launch)

~~~
mahranch
> It boils down to Google HQ, especially the three founders, didn't grant much
> power to local team

You sure it was that, and not China trying repeatedly (and successfully)
stealing Google's source code? (Source: [http://www.reuters.com/article/china-
google-idUSN03258738201...](http://www.reuters.com/article/china-google-
idUSN0325873820100303))

And then hacking Google again to commit corporate espionage and steal U.S
industrial secrets? (Source: [http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/security-
experts-china...](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/security-experts-
china-hacked-google-steal-u-s-industrial-secrets-article-1.195263)) Or any
number of other attacks, backstabbing or a lack of cooperation from China's
government?

Google left China because it just wasn't worth it to them to do business there
anymore. Especially when your own research into the security breach shows the
host country's government is facilitating the attacks on your company. I'd
leave too... Then again, I wouldn't have been there in the first place.

~~~
est
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora)

> the attacks were "orchestrated by a senior member of the Politburo who typed
> his own name into the global version of the search engine and found articles
> criticising him personally

This is the aftermath.

------
taspeotis
Related reading:
[https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20030822-00/?p=...](https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20030822-00/?p=42823)

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_RPM
As soon as I went to the page, it was hijacked by a huge advertisement. It
literally loaded the article, then it disappeared and a huge advertisement
showed up.

~~~
mahouse
Use an ad blocker.

------
frobozz
If China "uses historical maps" like the one illustrated, to justify its
claim, does that mean they think Hong Kong should still be a British Dependent
Territory?

------
koepke
Official East German maps showed West Berlin as a blank area bordered right by
the map of East Berlin which was in full detail.

------
transfire
I have no hope for humanity.

