
Ask YC: "Rock Star" Job Titles - iamdave
So someone mentioned to me the option of working full-time for a period of time on a very exciting project.  The cost benefits would simply yield supplementary income, nothing super spectacular, so not getting the gig doesn't immediately mean I'll be shit out of luck with money.<p>But then I saw the job post and it said "ROCK STAR Developer" and immediately I didn't want to work for this company.  I was asked why by a third party, and I explained how the whole cliche of calling people ninjas and rockstars is pointlessly chic, and trivializes what you want the person to do because their name "looks" hip and trendy.<p>And dear god I know one thing if I know anything: trendy fails to deliver.<p>Anyone else here have an opinion on the whole "rock star" job industry mentality?
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bjclark
I totally agree 100%. If I see rockstar or ninja, I skip right past your ad.

You want to get my attention? Tell me you're looking for a professional, and
you're going to treat me like one. I want to know that I get 8 hours a week to
work on opensource. I want to know that you're looking for craftsman, not ego
maniacs. Mostly, I want to know that I'm not working with a group of people
that saw the word rockstar and thought to themselves "Oh, rockstars huh?
That's totally describing me."

Also, please please please don't tell me you have funding from a "Top Tier"
VC. It's a sure fire way to convince me that you care more about your ego than
running a successful company. Who the fuck cares who funded you? I don't care
who, I only care that you're going to be around for a long time. And, you're
going to consider anyone that gives you a ton of money to be "Top Tier", so
it's completely meaningless anyway.

~~~
ivankirigin

      "I want to know that I get 8 hours a week to work on opensource"
    

You wouldn't work at a closed source company?

edit: i read 8-hours-a-day -- sorry. that is somewhat reasonable.

The unreasonable side comes from the inability to create hours. You can only
add work. Side projects are always additive, unless you can stop work on a
core project to do the side project. That's often bad for business, unless
you're Guido.

The solution is to just work more to make up the hours. Most people don't want
to hear that though, because they like the idea of getting a gift of choice
from a company.

~~~
cstejerean
Any company that leverages open source software should make an effort to
donate back to the community, even if the core of their software is closed
source. Use Linux? Python? Emacs? Firefox?

Allowing your employees to donate some time towards open source projects is
probably a good way to attract talent. Advertising for "rockstar ninja"
positions is not.

~~~
wheels
While I agree that it's a much better way to attract talent, I'm going to say
(as an OSS contributor myself) that unless it's already significantly into its
funding cycle, a startup where you've got time to spend on random OSS stuff
that doesn't directly benefit the company is probably focusing on the wrong
things.

~~~
cstejerean
A startup where the co-founders have time to work on random OSS stuff is
probably working on the wrong things. A startup where _employees_ can spend
20% of their time hacking on OSS or side projects is likely doing just fine. I
would be more worried about a startup that expects or demands that employees
work 40+ hours. It either means that it's being run by suit monkeys that don't
understand how programmers work or has poor project management that requires a
constant crunch mode.

------
pg
Job ads are usually full of cliches. The interesting thing to me is how much
they've have changed. Ten years ago it was "team player." Now it's "rockstar."
Silly as it is, that's at least a sign of progress. It means employers have
now realized that you want the smartest programmers, rather than obedient
ones.

I suspect Google's example is the main reason for this change. Or evolution.

~~~
jmatt
So from your perspective the companies that use "rockstar" and similar terms
are probably better for hackers than a standard job posting? Since they are at
least looking for the right type of programmers... I can see that perspective.

It's always possible that some horrible HR person posted the job. I've talked
to some horrible HR people at Microsoft and Google in the past (when they were
"cool" places to work with super smart types).

I think the most obvious move is to interview and talk to the people you will
be working for/with. In many cases the specific project or team is as
important as the company.

The job ad is just to get that initial interest. To get you to commit to
sending a resume or taking a phone call.

~~~
bjclark
So, smartest programmers = rockstars? Highly doubtful.

~~~
jmatt
_Silly as it is, that's at least a sign of progress. It means employers have
now realized that you want the smartest programmers, rather than obedient
ones._

Yeah but that seems to be what PG is saying here.

------
sutro
I used to love reading John Carmack's finger-based blog (flog?). "finger
@idsoftware.com" still yields the company directory listing (not sure if it's
still up-to-date). With the exception of the CEO, everyone has a simple,
functional title like Programmer or Artist. The humility and understatement
implicit in the listing -- John Carmack, Programmer -- is something that more
companies and individuals should aspire to. He isn't a rock star, ninja, or
even an engineer, architect, or developer. He's just a programmer. One of the
best.

~~~
nailer
Engineer seems as humble as programmer to me.

~~~
sutro
To me, "engineer" and "architect" are terms originally pulled from other
disciplines -- perhaps as an attempt to lend credence to the seemingly less
substantial act of mere "programming." John Carmack and id software, to me,
represent the disavowal of all pretense, the refusal to seek the
respectability of more historically established fields. They are programmers
and they are proud.

~~~
nailer
I use 'engineer' because I do other things than programming (my job title is
'Technical Specialist'). Programming, systems administartion, writing
processes for the software and reviewing architectural designs.

Everything I do pretty much falls into either software or electrical
(hardware) engineering, at a higher or lower level depending on the job. I
don't think of mechanical and structural engineers as having a monopoly on the
term.

------
SwellJoe
I like to use the term "famously good". Unfortunately, that sets the bar
extremely high. Not as high as it seems, though, since I mean, "famous in our
segment of the market or for working with our preferred technologies". e.g.
They've written one or more books on the topic, they headed up a popular FOSS
project in the area or in the language, they wrote the definitive
implementation of a really interesting concept, they have code in our language
implementation (where language for us is Perl and JavaScript--so patches in
the Firefox JavaScript engine or Perl 5 or Perl 6 are interesting indicators),
etc. We'd even consider blogging to be a "famous" trait...though we'd want to
see some code.

So, by that definition there are at least 50 people on HN that I'd hire
without hesitation. And by that definition, I've worked with and for at least
a couple dozen famously good people in my ten years in the industry (and the
longer I think about it, the longer the list gets).

Interestingly, when I read "Rock Star Developer", I think, "Will work your ass
off, get no equity, and get salary on par with the industry average." And when
I think, "famously good", I think, "Will expect salary that is commensurate
with output, will expect to work on interesting projects, and has his/her pick
of jobs." And yet, the latter is who I want to hire, because I know the
difference it makes in quality and productivity. If I can hire a famously good
hacker for about 1.5 times the industry average, I'd consider it a good deal.

But I use the term because I know what it means...I'm not sure if it'd be
meaningful to folks reading our job ads. So I'd probably be more explicit
about what we're looking for.

------
nickb
"ROCK STAR Developer" is probably a synonym for an underpaid, overworked
developers ;). They can't pay you with money so they pay you with empty
superlatives.

~~~
andrewparker
Meh... after working with a team of 20 developers for a few months, I could
very clearly tell you who are the rock stars and who are not. Particularly in
software development, some people are just unbelievably better than others.

~~~
teamonkey
I'm more of a roadie.

------
fortes
I find it funny that, typically, these companies want 'rock stars,' but are
unwilling to pay a commiserate rate.

If you really believe you want a star, say John Resig or someone similar, you
better have a kick-ass project and be prepared to pay for him ... otherwise,
you're just hoping you can get someone good on the cheap.

~~~
SwellJoe
Work environment is also a big issue. I've known great developers (a few of
which have written code _every_ Python developer uses every day) who've made
their employment decisions based on how they'll be treated, who they'll be
working with, and with what tools they'll be working (and even what they'll be
working on....Open Source development has a strong allure for many developers,
beyond mere money). Aeron chairs have a reputation for being a "boom era
boondoggle", but if you don't provide a good chair, you won't keep a good
developer sitting for long. Great recent hardware to work on is a given. Big
monitors, a given. Whatever software and hardware they need to be comfortable:
trackball or fancy mouse, weird keyboard, monitor stand, etc. Likewise for
snacks and their favorite beverages.

As a startup, I'm running cheap. But, when it comes time to hire folks, I'm
stocking the damned fridge with the best stuff money can buy, buying great
chairs and huge monitors, and anything else I can to make working for me and
with me the best work experience of their lives. Even if it costs $5000-$7500
right off the bat to equip a developer, that's chump change compared to the
opportunity cost of hiring a new one to replace him if he leaves. And it's a
small percentage of their total compensation package. (And we have that
wonderfully alluring Open Source thing going for us, so we won't lose folks
just because they don't get to see their code set free.)

Reckon we could hire Resig? I hear he likes Perl.

~~~
rhymes
which is the name of your company :) ?

~~~
SwellJoe
Virtualmin. We'll be hiring for a couple of positions a little later this year
(primarily related to our new cloud computing products, rather than what you
see on our website today). Feel free to send over your resume.

------
wheels
"Ninja" and "Rockstar" are just a dorky way of saying "We're looking for
energetic, self-motivating high-achievers to work in a dynamic team on its way
to the top!" In other words, nothing.

If I read an ad that was looking for an expert in graph theory, or genetic
algorithms, or whatever, with a strong knowledge of C++ for a small team where
there were still opportunities to be treated as a co-founder ... then we're
getting somewhere.

The problem with "rock star" and "ninja" isn't just that they sound dumb, it's
that they're usually just a way of saying, "We don't really know what we're
looking for, but if you're a workaholic, it might be you."

------
mcormier
I agree that it is pointlessly chic, however have you ever thought about it
from the point of the people hiring? It is difficult to find good people to
hire, and this company isn't making any bones about what they want. Also
remember to separate human resources from development. What you are getting,
unless the company is tiny, is HR spiel.

I would use something like that as a flag of caution but I would want to see
the job description/website/product information before making a final
decision.

The Omni Group calls their support staff, "Support Ninjas", and I thought it
was humorous the first time I saw it a couple of years ago.

<http://www.omnigroup.com/company/people/>

If it's a churn and burn shop that pays nothing then yes, stay away. If it's
an over zealous HR person, than give them the benefit of the doubt. :)

------
jws
We've solved that another way. Our employees get to choose their own title
(except they can't use a legally significant name or VP without permission).

We have:

    
    
       * Head Greenskeeper
       * Mighty God of Thunder
       * Princess
    

... along with the usual "senior software engineer" and such. You might think
that would remove the meaning from titles, but I can tell you... I'll take a
Mighty God of Thunder or a Head Greenskeeper for my project any day over
someone that put Senior Software Architect on their business card.

~~~
Leon
Why don't you choose for the best, regardless of the label they apply to
themselves?

~~~
jws
I do. I just told you their labels.

------
brk
One thing that you just generally have to watch out for with startup job
postings is the people who have drunk too much of their own Kool Aid. Everyone
believes they will change the world and make a major impact. Some certainly
will change the world, others will "merely" exist in a self-sustaining niche
that never changes the game, but earns everyone a nice salary.

Most startups are masters of spin, you pretty much have to be. Every developer
is a "Rock Star", every VC is "Top Tier", every release is a "Revolutionary
enhancement", and even though there could be 8 players in any one market, each
one is somehow or another the "Leader", "Market Leader", or "Top Ranked" one.

Don't be turned off JUST by the job posting...

------
hopeless
Way not take these titles literally?

Rock star: cocaine and alcohol habit; cancels important engagements at the the
last minute; often uncommunicative / in stupor; always followed around by a
gaggle of loose women;

Ninja: Hides from colleagues; carries deadly weapons; often surprises you with
unpleasant experiences; uncommunicative; can't work with others; only ever
seen at night

I'm sure, if questioned, most companies using these titles are not looking for
these attributes! Seriously, why not ask for "Code Vampires" or "Project
Pornographers" :-)

------
h3h
I think the "rock star" mantra used to work well when everyone else had dental
job postings and a standard application form that had to be faxed in. Now,
though, marketing and recruiting people are clued in on the "ninja" and "rock
star" terminology, so abuse it to no end.

I too am turned off by these titles for this reason. When I'm recruiting I
just go for what seems honest and appealing -- nothing overly flashy or
trendy, but not boring either. I think the best positions combined with the
best companies will always stand out in some way, but that way will probably
continue to change.

------
steveplace
Clearly we need to develop some new titles

1) Code Baristas

2) Python Jockeys

3) CrackerJack Developers (retro!)

~~~
byrneseyeview
Java Zeppelins.

~~~
dangoldin
Perl Bandits.

~~~
incomethax
Ruby Wranglers.

~~~
mroman
Ruby Samurais?

Ruby Commandos?

:)

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw
Lua Lunatics

~~~
jsmcgd
Lisp Elitists

~~~
mroman
Scheme plotters

~~~
bootload
_"... Clearly we need to develop some new titles ..."_

T-Rex's

~~~
volida
so this is reddit after all

~~~
bootload
_"... T-Rex: so this is reddit after all ..."_

I disagree.

Puns are hacker activities. The real power of a pun is being able to see
things from different angles and perspectives. References to _"reddit"_ ,
cynicism and reasons not to learn seem to be closer to what you mean ~
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=248509>

~~~
volida
i meant it in a joking way, because reddit was the first time I observed the
phenomenon in node comments.

after all reddit was in its begginings a hackers place

------
sethg
My wife asked if organizations _really_ advertise for "rock star" programmers,
so I did a search on the local Craigslist and got four hits. The first link I
followed contained the following definition of "rock star":

[quote]

FileMaker Certified Developer. (If you’re not yet certified, we’ll get you
there!)

Ability to install and configure FileMaker Server Advanced; knowledge of ODBC
access and custom web publishing.

Experience managing software development projects.

Experience with SQL, javascript, PHP, Quickbooks integration.

Computer science degree or certification.

[unquote]

 _Res ipsa loquitur._

The ad on the second link I followed said that the company's _software_
"performs like a rock star". I'm not sure I would consider this a good thing.

------
blogimus
To paraphrase from a popular movie:

"When everyone is a rock star, no one is."

~~~
DocSavage
When just about everyone is a rock star, the lone groupie will be in high
demand.

~~~
ivankirigin
There is a lesson for the long tail here, right?

------
ryanmahoski
If the project is in fact "very exciting," maybe you should respond in kind.
Humor them. Rent a rock star costume and wear it to the interview. Gently
explain how you were moved by the job description but that there was this one
part which seemed pretentious to you. Be honest. Tell them you cringed when
you saw the words "rock star." Then, with all the drama you can muster, tear
off your uniform facade and reveal the person you are underneath. Or at least
the person you are in clothing suitable for a job interview.

------
joshwa
More terms to avoid:

    
    
      * Ninja
      * Guru
      * ___ - Fu
      * Kick-Ass ___
      * ___ Chops
      * Mad ___ Skill[sz]

~~~
t0pj
Sounds like a short list for potential .com's. :)

------
SDC
I have yet to meet a 'rock star' that was particularly impressive. They're
'washed up, surreal-life cast member' quality at best.

Is there even such a thing as a 'rock star' anymore? There are indie-rock
bands with small but loyal followings, sure, but 'rock star'? My daughter
won't have any idea what the term means. It smells of old out-of-touchness.
Like COBOL! ROCK STAR COBOL PROGRAMMER WANTED!

~~~
hugh
I think "rock star" has, and is intended to have, a certain retro charm about
it. A marker that those who use it are from a more civilized age (the 1980s)
when songs were sung instead of spoken, when mistreating women was something
you did in the privacy of your hotel room rather than the subject of your
lyrics, and when writing songs about how awesome you personally are was
considered a little gauche.

~~~
ahpeeyem
what you're describing sounds more like a "rap star"

~~~
hugh
Sorry, perhaps I was unclear, I was trying to contrast rock stars with rap
stars.

Rap stars are the 2008 equivalent of rock stars, but nobody talks about rap-
star programmers, because rappers aren't nearly as cool -- at least, not to
the demographic which tends to dominate programming.

And that's why we still aspire to be rock stars even though rock barely
appears on the sales charts in this blighted age.

------
zacharye
A less-known employer looking for talent on a job board has very few ways to
distinguish itself from the pack. Looking for a "rock star" may be one of the
ways it tries to do so. Tacky? Most certainly. Effective? Probably not. I
don't know if it should be discounted because of it though. The only way to
truly determine if it would be a good fit is to talk to the company.

~~~
bjclark
Actually, a really good way to grab attention is by not doing what everyone
else is doing. So, NOT looking for a "rock star" would be a good start.

~~~
kareemm
this is 100% true. when we hired a developer at edufire.com, the ad ripped the
phrase "web 2.0" and said if you were interested in building a real business
that would change the world, you should get in touch. we got about 15 resumes,
half were high quality, and we ended up being lucky enough to have an amazing
developer agree to come on board.

it's pretty simple: if you want to find the top 1% of developers out there,
don't hire like 99% of companies.

------
ivankirigin
I've found that the vast majority of functioning code is written by a small
minority of people at the company. The current exception for me is Tipjoy.
That's because I'm the only developer, and own 100% of both the angelic and
filthy code.

While the term "rock star" is a bit silly, a goal of mine is to grab someone
from that 1-5% pool at a company that actually writes good code.

~~~
iamdave
I don't think someone who simply rocks to the beat of chic and trendy catch
phrases means they can produce the best code.

~~~
ivankirigin
I wouldn't get so hung up on wording of a job post. Talking to someone for 20
seconds will give you inordinately more information.

------
huhtenberg
On the same subject - does anyone find "a fun place to work" to be strangely
unappealing ? I just can't help imagining myself rolling on the floor with
laughter after seeing their existing code :) In the end it should be an
_interesting_ place to work rather than anything else.

------
rfunduk
I don't see the big deal. Especially if it's just a job post title. Think of
it as just another way to say 'Senior' without implying any specific years of
experience or worse, age.

------
sosuke
I see some postings for code ninjas but where is all the love for code
pirates?

Pirates need love too!

~~~
thorax
Well, I wanted that, too ("Python Pirates, Arr!") But it has a little bit of a
bad connotation. Sounds like people who steal code all the time.

"Pirates ship it."

------
transburgh
I have to listen to the "ninja" term all the time in my office. It drives me
up the wall.

~~~
immad
Is that because you don't want your ninja identity exposed?

~~~
aaronblohowiak
Why would he be climbing walls if he didn't want to be exposed?

------
digiru
I think with engineers things are pretty binary. There is just 0 and 1. Some
engineers can just follow (0) and other that lead (1). The (1) are the ones
that just get things done. The (0) are the one that need some coaxing to get
finish line. The whole idea or a rockstar, ninja is BS. It is like a project 0
you failed and are not complete 1 you've met the deadline. If you want a
rockstar goto hollywood. If you want ninjas goto japan. If you want an
engineer goto colos, star wars movies, your local tech meet ups.

------
witten
I wrote a blog post on the very topic of so-called "rock star" job postings:
<http://coderific.com/blog/post/564>

------
jrockway
If you want a "rock star" developer, you can't ask someone to self-select. You
have to know them, and then ask them directly.

I would never call myself a "rock star" (because it's a dumb expression), but
I've personally never looked at a job ad and responded. I've always gotten
jobs through friends that specifically said they would hire me. When you are
going to spend 40 hours a week with someone, it's good for you to be friends.

------
kirubakaran
'Wanted: Rock Star programmer for Bubblegum Pop company'

------
babul
"Rock Star" in a job ad should only be used for Rock band auditions.

------
natch
I steer clear of rock star job listings too. I suspect it means they have a
weak team, weak technology, or both, or some kind of tangled mess, and they
hope someone can come and fix it all for them while the other team members
hold their responsibility at arm's length.

------
josgraha
Man these are some awesome comments. "Self proclaimed" Rockstars != craftsman.
Those who earned the title. Guido vonRossum et. al. are having their five
minutes, let them have it, they took the risks. You can't blame the recruiter
though, if they are looking to bring cocky, blowhards to the interview table
and wow the upper "hangers-on" with their talk game. I think recruiting, much
like a good programming environment needs to take bad decisions out of the
equation or minimize the collateral damage thereof. Oh well, such is the state
of recruiting and such is the ever changing complexion of software
development. Time to go back to the guild and apprenticeship system. Any
nobles out there? :p

------
nraynaud
Is anybody looking for a surfer dude developer ?

~~~
brianr
sure. drop me a line, email is in my profile.

~~~
icky
Don't listen to him, OP. He failed to refer to you as "brah".

------
aswanson
The term "rockstar engineer" always struck me as a comedic oxymoron. Guess I'm
not the only one. Terms like "kick ass" and "rockstar" do imply youth,
however, which is not a bad thing as far as I'm concerned.

~~~
gaius
_do imply youth, however, which is not a bad thing as far as I'm concerned_

I am pretty sure discriminating on age is at best unethical and generally
illegal in most major economies.

~~~
aswanson
I do not condone age discrimination. I merely meant to say that those terms
imply a younger company, which implies a smaller and a better work
environment, in my opinion.

------
drewcrawford
Alternatively, are there any "fun" job titles that are actually decent? Our
founders are trying to think of something to call themselves that's not as
boring as CEO/CTO/etc.

~~~
MrFantsyPants
I'm Vice-President in Charge of Crayons.

------
pjackson
When I see ads that advertise for RockStar Developers(!!!!!) I think about
companies that describe themselves as "cool".

If you have to say you're cool....you're probably not.

------
beaudeal
i completely agree that you should probably avoid these places... at that
point the company is trying too hard to be cool and therefore they are
inherently uncool (to me at least) - not to mention, this probably reflects on
the project / product they're building and who wants part of something that
isn't awesome??

the other thing about 'rock star' and 'code ninja' that particularly turns me
off is that it reminds me of that guy from payperpost who is annoying... i
would really hate working for that guy, and in the few times i've seen him he
never fails to say something like that...

one last thing i'll add is that i saw a job posting a grockit the other day
and thought it was pretty interesting...while i wasn't enamored with their
'agile development practices' the way they probably want developers to be, i
really liked their openness about what they offer in terms of comfort, health,
and fun. very straightforward and very honest, which is really what i'd be
looking for.

------
vaksel
the problem is that for every good programmer there are a hundred that are
just horrible, so I find that the whole "Rock Star/Guru" thing is just there
to weed out the guy who has to lookup in his book how to do a hello world
application

------
awt
I HATE IT. It turns me off too. I wonder if it attracts certain people though?

------
newton
Stunt Programmer

------
lrm242
Agree, stay away.

------
mroman
I do not want to be a rockstar - or a ninja . . . I stay away from those types
of ads, although I probably should take a closer look as other posters have
suggested.

If we are going to get into that naming territory, I think Wizard or Sourcerer
(misspelling intended) are more appropriate . . . and Bounty Hunter,
Gunfighter, Sniper, Commando, Surgeon, Evil Genius, Field Marshall, and
Gladiator are still not quite as silly as rockstar

:)

