
Ask HN: Desperate Python Hacker Seeking Help and Suggestions - helpmehn
I don't really know where to start here, as I'm near the end of my rope.<p>For personal, family, and financial reasons, I've been looking for jobs (unsuccessfully) in west Michigan for the past year.  Now, my savings are depleted, and I might be looking at homelessness if I'm not able to get something going quickly.<p>Background: I'm a graduate-educated Python hacker with advanced coursework in mathematics and a couple CS courses.  In my studies, I've taken courses in graph theory, linear algebra, neural networks, numerical analysis, and theory of computation.  I also audited a course in programming languages one semester simply because I was bored.<p>I first learned C nearly 20 years ago, and, though I can't really quote chapter and verse of the standard anymore, I'm still quite good at it.  I've also used Python in school and as part of a short stint as a software tester for about 5 years.  I'm also interested in learning Haskell and have been working on that for a couple of months.<p>I can code FizzBuzz in multiple idioms (functional, OO, procdural) in multiple languages.  I know algorithms fairly well and love solving problems.  I'm willing to do any test anyone has for me to prove my abilities.  I do also have <i>some</i> public code on github, but it's just a couple small projects that aren't even really useful at this point.<p>In spite of all that, I haven't been able to turn it into a job in this area, because I have no real contacts in the industry (meaning I have to go through HR), and all the job ads specify things like "5 years C# experience," so I think my application is just ending up in file 13 because I don't tick the proper buzzwords.<p>I've tried Odesk &#38;c and haven't been able to get any traction there.  I don't really have the ability to do a startup because I'm about $100 short of "$100 and an idea" that's needed to do so. :/<p>I'd appreciate any help anyone has for me.  Please either reply here (and please upvote! this account is, of course, a throwaway) or email to desperate_hacker@ymail.com.<p>Thank you all,<p>A Desperate Hacker
======
bfe
As someone born and raised in Michigan and whose partner was also born and
raised in Michigan, my advice is that other than visiting grandparents and
hiking and touring breweries, you will find your opportunities tremendously
expanded by as quickly as possible getting the fuck out of Michigan.

~~~
Arro
Another Michigan ex-pat here to completely agree. Grew up in mid-Michigan,
went to a big university there for CS, and I wasn't interested in writing .NET
or Java for an insurance company. That led to moving to SF to hack on Python
and JavaScript with other hipster hackers.

The only thing I really miss is Michigan's summer heat (it's mid 60's and
windy here - in July).

~~~
SomeCallMeTim
Ummm....move to the East Bay. Past the Oakland/Berkeley hills it's between 80
and 100 through the summer, and you can always Bart into SF. Rent is going to
be a lot less too.

Of course it will never be as HUMID as in Michigan, but...do you really want
that?

------
jcr
I realize you're using a new HN account, possibly throw-away, or you may
actually be new here. At the start of every month on HN is a "Who's Hiring MM
YYYY" thread (which includes remote work), and a "Freelancer/Seeking
Freelancer" thread.

The most recent were on July 1st, and on Monday new ones for August will be
posted. The most recent are linked below, but keep your eyes open for Monday.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2719028>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2719083>

good luck!

~~~
helpmehn
Thank you.

------
SeoxyS
Have you considered a drastic move to SF, NYC, Boston, or another startup
hotspot? Having no money in Michigan is no better than having no money in a
more expensive city, so cost of living shouldn't even be a factor here.

Also, don't limit yourself to Python / C. Stress that you're able and willing
to learn any programming language and solve any challenge that comes your way.
I know there isn't a single unemployed Ruby developer in chicago, thanks to
Groupon.

Finding a job as a developer is actually not that hard, in this economy. Be
thankful you're in this industry and not, say, the automotive industry.

~~~
mtogo
_Have you considered a drastic move to SF, NYC, Boston, or another startup
hotspot?_

Ah yes, it's so easy to move when you can't even afford $100 to start a
company. Great advice.

 _Finding a job as a developer is actually not that hard, in this economy._

Looks like you're wrong, in this instance at least.

~~~
bubblewatcher
I find it interesting that your hostility came through so easily and without
consideration for how your words could effect someone seeking to employ you.
(which is the actual reason I had read this post)

You seem to focus all of your attention on what "skills" you have without
regard for the personality traits that make a desirable team member. I can
guarantee you that you will meet many developers with greater skill than you
poses.

When I look to hire a developer or if I were to be considering you as a co-
founder I would first judge your ability to be an asset to the team.

I'd be curious to learn why you were let go from your previous job, but It is
certainly a combination of your personality flaws, lack of relevant skills,
and inability to adapt.

While the advice of moving to a new city may not seem plausible to you, your
reaction to the question is quite telling. 1) You are condescending and
inaccurately view "reality" 2) You are a linear thinker (consider becoming
more lateral)

I'd wager that the reason you are unable to find a job is because of these 2
character traits...

I'd start with those

~~~
jessedhillon
mtogo is a random commenter, not the same person who is looking for help in
Michigan. I'd love to know what company you work for, though, so I can stay
far away.

------
samarudge
Maybe being blunt, but if you're seriously about to be out of house and home
because you can't find a job, you need to lower your fence. Aspiring to be a
programmer/hacker/startup guy is great, but even a job stacking shelves in a
shop would give you enough money to survive on while you continue looking for
a job you'd enjoy (Or working on your own projects). Put it this way, living
on the street gives you hardly any chance of getting somewhere you want to be.
Having a house and a crappy job for a few years while you get back on your
feet is a much better choice.

~~~
sitkack
This country is harsh and there is NO safety net for the able bodied at the
end of a rope. Deliver pizza (and get shot), stock shelves, what ever it
takes.

You are not your job. It is illegal to be homeless in the USA.

~~~
sitkack
I don't really understand the downvotes. Please explain.

------
justin_vanw
Your description really isn't enough to give you advice. You should post your
resume online somewhere and link to it.

But, based on what you said, I can tell you:

Using Python in school and at a job doesn't make you a Python Hacker. From
your description of yourself it sounds like you mostly play with programming.
It may just be the way you worded it, but what was the last 'major' software
project you have worked on, either for work or open source? Have you been a
developer professionally, or have you skirted on the edges of the industry? I
interview candidates and review resumes all the time, and nothing sets off my
spidey senses more than someone who overestimates their skills. If you don't
know a topic well and know you don't, that is totally fine, but when a
candidate says they are an '8/10' in a language, but I gauge them to be a near
beginner, it tells me they are blissfully unaware how much they don't know.
That means that they probably have never learned any language or topic with a
high degree of mastery, and that they aren't aware of how much more is out
there in the language in question. That means they aren't very curious, and
they aren't passionate (or worse, they aren't smart).

It also sounds like you have a graduate degree in some non-technical field.
Did you graduate recently? The courses you list are not very advanced, and
coursework doesn't really matter for employment anyway.

We are hiring aggressively (like most big tech companies in the valley) have
an engineering challenge up at: <http://codeeval.com/public_sc/48/> . If you
do it competently we _will_ call you back. We pay well, have great benefits,
offer relocation, etc. However, it is fairly challenging and the majority of
people who attempt it are not able to complete it.

Honestly, FizzBuzz is meant as a test of basic programming competency. It's
disqualifying when an engineer can't do it, but it's not anything to brag
about. A competent engineer should be able to implement FizzBuzz in any
computer language in a few minutes, even if they've never seen the language
before, so long as they can get documentation.

No matter what happens, you aren't going to find work in Michigan. You aren't
connected and from the sound of it your resume is very light, and you don't
have a network, so contracting and freelancing just isn't realistic for you.
Based on your description of yourself, you would be a fairly junior level
engineer wherever you go. You have to start somewhere, though. Good luck!

~~~
Natsu
I looked at that challenge. Is it really that much harder than FizzBuzz? Seems
like it requires more string manipulation and about the same level of
mathematics as FizzBuzz.

Or am I falling victim to the effect where everything I know how to do looks
easy?

~~~
ikarous
The problem's description is deceptively simple. It poses at the end a
combinatorics problem that is non-trivial. I submitted a correct solution
after a bit of research; my first approach was the naive solution.

~~~
helpmehn
If, by "non-trivial," you mean NP-hard, I agree. :-)

~~~
ikarous
I was trying to be vague so as not to give hints to those interested in trying
the challenge. Evidently, I am utterly guileless.

~~~
helpmehn
Given the number of combinatorial optimization problems that are NP-hard, I
don't think that gives anything away to anyone who doesn't already know what
you're talking about.

------
wickedchicken
Don't underestimate the power of 'cold-calling.' While it's terrifying for
people not used it to it, you'd be surprised how friendly people are when
contacted out of the blue for a legitimate question. Find some developers on
open source projects you like, see where they work (either location-wise or
company-wise) and send them an e-mail saying "Hey, I wanted to thank you for
writing/contributing to the X software package. I've noticed you live in /
work at Y; I am currently seeking a development job in Python or C and would
be interested in moving there/working there. Do you happen to know of any
opportunities available? If not, again accept my thanks for X software." Don't
attach a resume, if the person is responsive the first thing they will do is
ask for one.

The key here is to actually want to move to that area, work with that company
(whether it's 10 or 10,000), or work in that field. People detect insincerity
relatively easily, don't contact people unless you actually want to work with
_them_ as opposed to _anybody_. On the flip side, _never_ let yourself be
discouraged by thinking "nah, I'm not good enough for them." The worse thing
that happens is the person doesn't respond; this may feel bad but you end up
with a thicker skin and learn how to do it better the next time.

Also: do not spam. Again with the insincerity thing above: this technique only
works if you want to work with _them_ instead of _anybody_ , and I promise you
they can pick up on that.

~~~
helpmehn
Thanks. I appreciate the suggestion.

------
mattwdelong
Just moved from Grand Rapids, and can say there is a very small but growing
startup scene in Grand Rapids.

Although I didn't get to check it out, there is a great Python User Group that
meets regularly (I believe every other Monday) at various locations in GR,
usually at Calvin College. Join the group and they'll send out regular
updates. Ben Rousch is the contact there, he also runs the local Web Dev User
group. I've exchanged emails with him before, he is a great guy and very
helpful. It might not hurt to get in touch with him.

More importantly, just recently someone put up a job posting on the group
looking for a python/django programmer. I suggest you check it out.
[http://www.fiveq.com/blog/employment/fiveq-employment-
opport...](http://www.fiveq.com/blog/employment/fiveq-employment-opportunity-
software-developer/)

It might not hurt to drop into Atomic Object, they're growing and usually
hiring as well: <http://www.atomicobject.com/pages/Working+at+Atomic+Object>

If I can be any help to you, perhaps putting you in contact with other people
then let me know. My email is listed on my profile page.

Best of luck.

------
look_lookatme
First off you need to consider scraping together enough money to get out of
where you are. Move to a place that has jobs. You say "family"... do you have
children? This is an important consideration in terms of where you can go... I
think there are basically two types of cities with solid startup/software job
markets: There's the NYC/SFs of the world, incredibly lucrative, incredibly
expensive. Then there are the Austin/Boulders of the world, financially
reasonable, but not the "big time". From the sound of your situation, the
latter is just fine.

Also if you are _that_ desperate, you should consider moving to one of these
places and leaving your family behind until you've made enough money to bring
them to you. That may sound horrible, but it's the way people have pulled
themselves up and made a better life for their family for centuries.

~~~
Vivtek
I second the latter paragraph. It won't be long before you've got the cash to
move for real - but if you're on your own in the world, you can be a lot more
flexible and still send money home for the family. (Assuming that is even your
situation.)

I've never actually needed to do that, but my wife and I have agreed that it
would be a valid emergency measure if and when.

------
9oliYQjP
My advice. Don't do contract freelance work. It is risky in that if you're not
a good business person, you will string yourself along under the illusion of
paying the bills. But you'll slowly be moving backward as projects take longer
than you expect, you undercharge, etc..

You really may need to uproot your family. I know that the tech economy is
booming in several major urban areas. I'm up in Toronto, and have headhunters
calling me like crazy. There is a dearth of programming talent. I know several
people in San Francisco and they say that the valley has the same problem.

The situation is so desperate that I know several companies that would
entertain hiring somebody in Michigan to do work for them remotely. It might
take a trip up to Toronto to meet with some folks, but that's just a several
hour drive.

~~~
pyre
I'm actually looking to move back to Toronto, where's the best place to look
for these jobs? Most of the stuff that I hear about are corporate Java and/or
C#/.NET type jobs.

~~~
9oliYQjP
Seriously, start on Twitter. Everybody who's anybody in the Toronto developer
scene is pretty active on Twitter these days. Find a few developers with
blogs, follow them, then start following a few of their followers or people
they RT. From Twitter, start attending some meet-ups. If you're an iPhone,
Android, Python, Ruby or JS developer, it's a pretty good job market right
now. Most of the places you'll want to work at are right in the downtown core
so you can bike, walk, or subway/streetcar it to work. That also makes
socializing vastly easier as everyone is clustered in the same area.

[http://www.meetup.com/HTML5-Web-App-
Developers/events/225564...](http://www.meetup.com/HTML5-Web-App-
Developers/events/22556421/)

<http://techtalksto.com/>

I know there are a ton of Toronto lurkers on here too.

~~~
pyre

      > start attending some meet-ups
    

This is obvious, but doesn't work so well when you are not living in the area.
Flying from Portland to Toronto to attend a meetup is a bit pricey. I did meet
someone from Freshbooks at OSCON though.

I'll also mention that when I was last living (~3 years ago) in Toronto, I
didn't find it easy to hook up with the local Python/Perl communities. Heck, I
sent a request to join the Toronto Perl Mongers mailing list and never got a
response. I assumed that there wasn't much of a community.

------
strlen
There are a number of open source Python projects that have vendors associated
with them (or large corporate users). OpenStack is one such example, but
there's also various scientific libraries, e.g., NumPy/scipy that may better
suited to your background. Typically open source-heavy companies are more open
to remote/distributed work: I am not saying working remotely full-time, but
something along the lines of working on site for the first six months (to
prove yourself) and then working remotely most of the time/flying in on site
for one week a month.

Consider this: identify several such projects along with the companies that
are heavily involved in these projects open source communities, i.e., ones
that are actually contributing and/or heavily modifying them.

First, send a patch, do something to "get your feet wet". Then pick a
substantial sub-project (not something trivial), start contributing to it and
at the mean time contact the engineer/managers working at associated companies
(as not to be trapped in the HR resume black-hole). In the interview, at least
mention the work you're doing.

Chances are they will be willing to fly you out to interview and help
relocate. Be honest with them and say that (due to family reason) you'll need
to at the very least travel.

In the worst case, you could do the reverse of working remotely/visiting the
office frequently: rent a room in the remote area, work in the office most of
the time, travel to Michigan for weekends/a week at a time: this will be
difficult, but at the very least you'll be able to establish more "formal"
experience and industry connections that you could translate into a more
sustainable arrangement later (don't, however, start a position knowing that
you won't be able to stick for at least a year and a half to two years: that
would not very ethical, especially since you're looking for a company that
will invest in your career). Of course, some family situations, e.g., elder
care won't allow for that. In that case, still the advice applies: you're far
more likely to find a remote-work scenario in an open-source related company
than elsewhere.

~~~
strlen
Quick clarification by: "pick a substantial sub-project (not something
trivial), start contributing to it", I mean:

_Implement_ a non-trivial module for the project in question , i.e., do much
more than fix a few bugs.

Since you are junior (no actual development experience), it might not be
realistic to hope for a remote position even in companies otherwise friendly
to it. You need to make it a point to move for at least a few years: you'll
want a company that can invest in you and give you a chance to prove yourself,
before you can do more unorthodox things.

~~~
tootlol
just curious have you contributed to open source? If you have how did you get
started with little experience?

------
neilk
Aside from the "move immediately" advice, I'd suggest getting your code out
there in a more public way. This dramatically increases your chances of being
hired, because it replaces the technical interview. You just have to prove
that you're capable of dealing with other human beings, and most people can do
that.

Do something -- anything -- to get your code out there. Even if it's the most
obscure and idiosyncratic library, throw it on Github.

I got a ticket to the Valley on the strength of some decently interesting (but
by no means amazing) open source code. And I'm not even American and have no
CS education, so it was considerably more difficult for me than it will be for
you.

Incidentally, my current employer, the Wikimedia Foundation, is very open to
remote contractors. (I caution you that we tend to be a bit slow to hire.) If
you want to continue to live in Michigan, you won't be unique in your
isolation, because these organizations are basically run over the internet.
And your salary will go much further if you don't have to deal with rent in
SF. <http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Jobs>

Mozilla has similar advantages. <http://www.mozilla.com/en-
US/about/careers.html>

~~~
helpmehn
Can you tell me more about how you accomplished this?

~~~
neilk
I'm not sure I would call it an accomplishment. More like a happy accident,
but in retrospect I should have been doing that sort of thing all the time.

Frustrated with my inability to find employment, I did a series of hacks which
became really popular. One succeeded because I like hacks which produce pretty
pictures and so do a million other blogs. Another involved AJAX, which was a
hot buzzword at the time (2005), and that got attention from from employers,
who started calling me out of the blue. Whereas a few months prior I'd washed
out of an interview with a local website that did used car listings.

I was well-prepared for the mega-hyped trend that was AJAX and JavaScript
(self-taught comp sci, graphic design, web experience), so I was lucky. I had
to prove myself in other ways afterwards though. The point is, these days,
having code out there that people can download and evaluate will at least get
you through the front door.

------
dotBen
Repeating the advice of others to move, if only in the hope that the
repetition will alude to the validation of said advice.

I usually don't have a good word to say about recruiters but in cases like
yours it might be worth contacting a few who work in one of the hubs you could
move to, and have them look at your resume. They'll help you brush it up if
needed but more importantly help you validate that there are employers looking
for your skill set _(because if they don't think they can place you, they
won't spend any time with you)_.

Have them set up 3 or 4 interviews and scrape together the fare to come here
and you might not need the return ticket. Just don't indicate to them that you
are desperate but white-lie and tell them that you just want to relocate to
SF/NY/etc.

BTW I moved to SF from a different country (UK) 5 years ago because it is
where I needed to be for my career - it was hard but I did it and it is one of
the best decisions I made. The winters are better here too! :)

~~~
elias
Agreed with Ben. I'm an Aussie transplant and know the pain that comes with
moving but have to say it was the best decisions of my life.

I help the portfolio of Charles River Ventures (early investor in Twitter,
Yammer) find exceptional hackers to help change the world. Happy to look over
people's resumes and give feedback. If you're not from Silicon Valley, I'll
set you up with a half dozen interviews and can help you overcome visa issues
-- I'm passionate about seeing the world's smartest people working in startups
(either as founders or early stage employees).

Email: elias @ crv.com

------
DavidTO1
Here is my story. I graduated from Mechanical engineering 3 years ago. After I
finished school I got a job at a small company doing embedded development,
mostly in `c`. My salary was $78000.

Two years after I started my job, I decided to learn iOS programming during
evenings and weekends. A few months later I quit my job and decided to do iOS
programming full time. At the time, I was working on an idea and didn't have
anything ready for the world to see. Months passed and I still wasn't ready. I
realized that it would take me another year to complete so I decided to pivot
and work on another product.

After 1 month of pivoting I released my first project on the Mac App Store and
was making ~$5000/month. A few months later, a company came knocking on my
door and gave me a job offer. I accepted and am now making more than I did in
my first job. I still have my business running on autopilot. I am 27.

This is not to brag. It is to show that if you really want to get out of the
rut that you are in, lock yourself in a room, build something and release it
into the wild. If you don't have a good idea, copy someone else's. By doing
this, you'll learn new skills and will eventually become valuable to others.

Best of luck.

------
cmoylan
I'm a Python/Ruby developer in Chicago originally from Michigan. If you want
to stay close to Michigan for whatever reason, but need a job, Chicago is a
great compromise.

Chicago has an excellent Python user group: <http://chipy.org/> Get on the
mailing list and let them know your situation. Also consider learning Ruby on
Rails. If you Python, Ruby will be easy to learn. If you know any Javascript
at all, leverage that.

------
rdouble
Try to get a job as a sysadmin or IT person at a health care
organization/hospital. In economically depressed areas, these organizations
usually provide the best paying jobs because they are not subject to normal
market forces. They exist everywhere, and will hire anyone even sort of
qualified for the job. You can use that experience to move to a city where
they have the python jobs you want, because health care orgs everywhere are
desperate for people who know about their specialized infrastructure.

Here's a few examples of what I mean if you are say, in Grand Rapids.

[http://careers.spectrum-
health.org/?job=main.searchbycat&...](http://careers.spectrum-
health.org/?job=main.searchbycat&cat=245509&view=tlp&startrow=&utm_source=careersite)

~~~
Luyt
_"They will hire anyone even sort of qualified for the job"_

Are you sure? When I read those job postings, I see stuff like:

 _Job Requirements: Bachelor's degree. Minimum of five years experience with
Informatica or another comparable ETL product. Knowledge of data warehousing.
Experience with development and trouble shooting within the HealthQuest PLIB,
PM, IIP, COMLINK HL7, MR, PA modules and Q-processing. Experience with
monitoring and addressing batch cycle activities._

Either they grossly overask, of you wouldn't have a chance if you're not an
insider already.

------
codeslush
If you're able and/or willing to go to Silicon Valley, which is where I think
your best bet is (note: I don't live there, but if I was near homeless that's
probably where I would go), then I will figure out a way to get you a plane
ticket with few strings attached. The strings would be around timing and
departure location: I need enough time to get a decent fare. I would expect
you to have a plan. I would ask that you fly out of a major airport for
competitive fares. That's pretty much it. My email in my profile.

~~~
helpmehn
Wow. I'm floored. Thanks for your response. I'll keep it in mind.

------
inovica
I agree with some people that a move might be your best bet, though from your
post its not obvious if there is anything (such as family) keeping you from
moving. I think its a shame that oDesk did not work out for you - maybe try
another service such as eLance where I personally feel (as someone who employs
via these services) that a better quality of person is found on there. Yes
there is the chance of competing against lower waged people in other
countries, however I personally employ based on skills and communication and
these days the costs are not as wide as they once were.

I am curious as to why you have not found something locally. Surely there are
groups you can join, either on or offline, which would help you.

I hope that some of the comments on here will help you or spur you into some
action

------
rdl
Is there anything (other than money) stopping you from moving to San Francisco
(well, Mountain View) next week?

It would be pretty easy to find a tech company willing to do phone/internet
screen for a day or two remotely, and then fly you out for interview. If it
goes well, you'd probably be pressured to just stay and work and then have
someone else pack up/ship your stuff :)

You should have done this instead of wasting your time trying to find jobs
locally, really.

~~~
helpmehn
I'm at the point where, if I had an offer with a relocation package in the Bay
area, I'd be there. Thanks for your suggestion.

------
juiceandjuice
I feel like I was in a similar position. My advice is gonna suck, but you
should really try to start working at a grocery store/shitty party time
jobs/borrow or something to save up about $2000 and flat out move. That will
be enough to get you to the bay area, find a job, and live for about a month,
maybe even get a room.

If you come to SF, you'll be able to find a job doing something somewhere to
get off the ground. I promise you this.

------
pyohio2
Why are you not at PyOhio? The west michigan group carpolled. Broadly
speaking: go to python meetups, network.

~~~
chow
I second this. Also consider Python-related meetups and user groups, like
Django.

------
kyro
Have you tried looking through some of the more recent "Who's Hiring" threads
here on HN?

Here's the most recent one from June, looking for freelancers (I'm not sure if
a July one was posted):

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2607058>

And here's a list of some more recent threads:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring>

I imagine you're pretty stressed out, but hang in there, and good luck.

(Woops – looks like jcr beat me to it. His/her comment has even more recent
information.)

------
mberning
Try temp agencies and contract agencies. I'd be shocked if they don't pick you
up. I've been told they are pretty desperate for warm bodies right now and
know several people that have gone that route out of desperation. Sure it is
not permanent or glamorous but it will pay the bills.

------
andy_boot
"5 years C# experience,"

/\ Try bending the truth.

Firstly you'll need different CVs depending on the job you are going for. So
take the one saying "Did python for 5 years at XYZ corp" and change it to "Did
python and C# for 5 years at XYZ corp" - This should get you past the HR
gatekeepers and in the meantime you just have to skill up on c#. When you
reach the interview with technical people they will be more reasonable -
providing you _are_ actually comfortable with c#.

~~~
dotBen
On this point remember that "5 years C experience" != "5 years commercial C
experience".

If you were doing commercial- _grade_ programming in Uni (or before) or any
open source then consider that valid experience.

Finally, just because a job says 5 years experience, and you don't have it,
doesn't mean that they won't consider your resume if you submit it. Better to
hear the hiring manager say "no" then not submit your resume at all. Case in
point, I don't have a college degree but I think every job I've ever held in
my 12 years in this industry has asked for one on the requirements. I don't
have one but I can do the job so I just applied anyway otherwise I'd never
work!

------
wisty
Dude, you NEVER have to go through HR. Use Google, and track down a manager
working on something interesting. Most interesting projects will have a web
presence of some kind. Those that don't usually aren't interesting (or are
buried deep in Google or Apple).

If you can't get the manager's contact details, _then_ you call HR, and ask
for their details.

If that doesn't work, find a company that _might_ have some interesting
projects. Contact their IT department (get the number of HR if you _must_ ),
and ask about what projects you might be able to join. Note, many interesting
projects are not in IT, but in other departments; but IT will have some idea
where those projects are. If you are good at number crunching, tell them that.
You can try other tricks, like if the manager says they are too busy, you can
ask if they have someone else who can take the call. You can also find out if
the company has a programmer's mailing list - maybe IT could help you there?

You will get rejections, but it's better to get 20 rejections and an offer in
a week than no rejections and no offers.

------
awwx
"meaning I have to go through HR"

By the way, the reason why you haven't been able to find a job is because _you
have no idea how to land work_. (I can tell because saying "I have to go
through HR" is as clueless as someone saying "I wrote a program but it didn't
work so my computer must be broken" :-)

The relocation option works because you don't need to know how to land work to
get hired -- there are jobs all over the place and you just walk around and
stumble over one.

That's not a bad idea for your situation right now: if you don't find
something just by posting on HN here, you could get yourself to San Francisco,
crash on someone's couch, walk around and talk to people, land something that
gives you some income. (The trick here is that the more _active_ you are about
it -- e.g., if _you_ come to SF, and if _you_ go around and talk to people --
the faster the process will happen).

Now, longer term, thinking about where you want to be next year (that is,
after you've resolved your immediate crisis), you might find it beneficial to
learn how to land work, depending on your goals. For example, maybe for
personal reasons you'd prefer to be in Michigan.

Someone hires you because you will solve a problem for them. Some of the
problems that people have can be solved with Python or numerical analysis,
etc. Of the people with problems that can be solved with your skillset, a
small percentage already _know_ that their problem can be solved with Python
or whatever. Those people advertise for jobs. When you don't find a job in
Michigan, it doesn't mean that no one in Michigan has problems. It doesn't
even mean that no one in Michigan has problems that can be solved using linear
algebra and so on. What it means is that people in Michigan with those
problems don't know yet that their problems can be solved with those
techniques. Thus sending HR a resume listing those skills won't land you a job
because the recipient doesn't understand that you can solve their problem.

You can learn how to land work in the same way you learned how to program.
Think back to what what your most effective learning method for you, when you
were learning to program. (Was it reading books, taking a class, or talking to
people who already knew how to program, or what?) Then use the same method for
learning how to land work: if reading books works best for you, read a book or
three; if classes are your style, take a class or a workshop; and so on.

------
iamelgringo
Contact StartupDigest VIP: <http://startupdigest.com/vip/> tell them you met
Jonathan from Hackers & Founders online on Hacker News. The concierge job
placement service they started two months ago is already the best in town...
low key. no pressure. opt in system for both startups looking for talent and
engineers looking for jobs. As a bonus, it's run by two of the savviest and
most connected hackers in the Valley: Chris and Brendan.

<full disclosure> They just sponsored Hackers & Founders Silicon Valley this
past week, and they are our sponsors for the next month.

But, their sponsorship was mostly to because we're boot strapping an incubator
without much of a budget at all.

Doesn't matter. They're the best source of startup jobs in town, and it's the
best way to find startup jobs in town.

</full disclosure>

Also, start doing some challenges at CodeEval.com. After you have some
completed, ping me, and I'll let Jim, the CEO know. We'll get you hooked up.

~~~
helpmehn
Thanks for your reply. I'll look into it.

------
aaronbrethorst
Canonical is hiring Python folks (please note you'll have to dig through there
for the PyJobs):
[http://www.linkedin.com/jsearch?page_num=1&sortCriteria=...](http://www.linkedin.com/jsearch?page_num=1&sortCriteria=DD&keepFacets=&facet_COMPANY=234280)

plus, many of their positions assume you work remotely.

------
gte910h
Move.

Really.

SFO, NYC, Boston, Atlanta, all need tons of work.

------
Sam_Odio
If your skills are as you describe then move to the bay area and look for a
job out here.

There are a lot of hackers out here who could help you out. Heck, even I have
a couch (in Mountain View) that you can crash on for a few weeks. Email me.

------
Nate75Sanders
There are plenty of people in Seattle (and I'm sure most big cities) having a
really tough time finding people to hire. In Seattle, I know of several
companies looking for python devs.

As other people here are stating, you need to move.

~~~
libria
Do you need to move, though? If programmers really are that scarce, is a plane
ticket + hotel enough disincentive to interview a good candidate?

------
jvanenk
This post is a day old now, so I'm guessing this won't be getting too much
visibility, but AtomicEmbedded (my employer) is hiring experienced embedded
software developers.

[http://www.atomicobject.com/pages/Embedded+Developer+Applica...](http://www.atomicobject.com/pages/Embedded+Developer+Application)

If the Embedded group doesn't look like your thing, you can also submit an
application to our parent company, AtomicObject. They are also hiring.

<http://www.atomicobject.com/pages/Working+at+Atomic+Object>

AtomicObject normally hires generalists (which it sounds like you are), so
experience with many languages and programming concepts is a huge plus.
AtomicEmbedded needs a more specific developer who can get their hands messy
with microcontrollers, oscilloscopes, and low level C code while still playing
in the land of ponies and fairies (Ruby/Rails/Python/C#).

If any of this sounds like your thing, don't hesitate to submit a resume.
We're always looking for the right people.

------
erikb
The thing about programming is, to be good you need to do it. You wrote a lot
of things like "I can do this, I can do that." But I guess a lot better to
find a job would be "I've done that". Hell, even if you write a Snake or
Tetris clone for the iPhone/Android Market, or write small patches for
documentation errors for opensource stuff you use. Even projects where you
just helped a friend to finish his master thesis would be better then nothing.

And if you are out of money stop looking in one direction. Open up in many
ways. And if you fry burgers at McDonnals, who cares. Pay your bills and in
your free time get going with doing anything programming related.

My point is: I think the US is the most developed IT market these days. People
who actually do things should always be able to get a job. If you didn't get a
job until now, it is probably because you didn't really look for it, or you
still don't have "what it takes".

Also I think through doing things you automatically learn to know like minded
people and thus find entrance into companies.

------
18pfsmt
I may be able to help you directly with work rather than give advice. Whether
you are married, have kids, or other obligations is of major importance,
however. I could even possibly set you up with your own br/ba once my remodel
is finished.

I prefer not to use email without GPG, so rather than email I will put my
phone number in my profile if I see you are actively following the replies.

~~~
helpmehn
Thanks. I appreciate this.

~~~
18pfsmt
Apparently, I can't do what I thought I could. So, I am going to delete this
phone number shortly (I will go to bed at ~2230 (MST).

edit: removed.

~~~
helpmehn
It's the thought that counts.

------
intellectronica
<http://www.canonical.com/about-canonical/careers>

~~~
StavrosK
Don't bother, I submitted a resume months ago that would be a perfect fit for
one of the positions and I haven't even heard back for a rejection.

~~~
intellectronica
I don't understand in what kind of world you live in, where it's better not to
try because you might be disappointed.

~~~
StavrosK
What? I said don't bother because they aren't replying to submissions at all.

~~~
lutorm
... based on a sample of one, though.

~~~
canadiancreed
Make that sample of two, as I had the same experience.

granted it's a sample of two out of who knows how many, but there it is. Will
still be applying again but it won't be at the top of the list sadly.

------
parfe
Learn Java and learn it now. Python might be nice in comparison but it isn't
going to put food on the table where you live. I'm lucky to have python job
(thanks to being part of a coup to overthrow PHP). If you can't find python
jobs stop looking for python jobs! Java has tons of warts, but if it feed you,
who cares?

------
nikoftime
Do you absolutely need to stay in Michigan? There are amazing companies (like
mine: BrightScope.com) that are hiring right now in places like San Diego, CA
for the same skill set you have (check out our careers page -- if you apply,
I'll see it -- just make sure to mention your HN posting).

~~~
helpmehn
Thanks. I appreciate this, and I'll be following up later.

------
jsvaughan
A few ideas

1\. Consider where it is going wrong. Are you getting interviews for things
you are suitable for? Are you getting knocked back at the interview stage?
i.e. it it you CV that needs sorting out, or the interview? Or is it that
there is nothing that matches your skills? Regardless of anything I would get
someone else to give you feedback on your CV.

2\. Find companies using the technologies you use and ring them up to see if
they have any work available, rather than waiting for adverts.

3\. Consider being a tester. It is rare to find a good tech skilled tester /
QA and they are valuable.

4\. Get the skills for the jobs that are available. Frankly if you are
desperate then put 5 years of C# on your CV and work night and day building
something in C#.

------
BDangIT
Have you thought about what the companies' problems are and how you can use
Python to solve their problems? Yes, companies are looking for specific skills
but there are companies that are looking for someone to fix their issues. They
don't care how you implement it as much as it gets that issue off their backs.

So if you want to land a job or a client do some thinking on what their issues
might be, their dreams, their goals, and maybe their fears. If you know these
and can translate these into how you can implement solutions, then you will
show them how much value you bring to the table. And when you can think of
ways to create value, you can immediately charge almost anything.

------
curt
Find someone to look over your resume and cold-call CEO's/hiring managers of
companies you're interested in.

It's my first time ever applying to job postings. Started looking a few weeks
ago and found out my resume was crap, after getting some advice and rewriting
it my response rate is 75%.

If you're interested in a company and think they might need you, just email
the CEO a short note. You'd be amazed at how often you'll get a response, a
couple even introduced me to other CEOs looking for someone with my skill set.

The two key's points to communicate: why are you interested in the company and
what can you do for them.

~~~
helpmehn
Thanks. Any chance you could show a before/after of your resume?

------
a2tech
Move to Ann Arbor, get a CS job. Until you get on your feet down here you can
do contract work through a company like Stout Systems
<http://stoutsystems.com/>

~~~
tptacek
Don't move to Ann Arbor. There's like 6 companies within a 30 mile radius that
can hire you there.

Move to Indianapolis, Chicago, or Cleveland, if you want to stay in the
midwest (I'm in Chicago and wouldn't blame you).

Strong agree with the overall sentiment that you can't stay in Grand Rapids if
you want to be a dev.

~~~
rdouble
What's in Indianapolis and Cleveland?

~~~
tptacek
Lots of companies that need code written. Saying "move to Chicago" felt janky
given that I'm a Chicago booster. I don't know if there's much of a Cleveland
startup scene. There is an Indy scene but it's small. However: who cares? You
don't have to work for a startup to get paid to code.

Thanks for calling me on this, though; if you look at "top employers" lists,
Columbus might actually be a better location. Columbus feels A2-ey, but there
big companies HQ'd there.

I lived and worked in A2 for 4+ years. I love A2, but I would strongly advise
against moving there unless there's a job there you're in love with.

~~~
rdouble
Well I mean, are there any specific companies or industries in those towns? Or
is the idea just a bigger town with more programming jobs at banks, insurance
companies, etc? Genuinely curious. If the idea is to uproot to another mid-
sized midwestern city to get a generic programming job, why not suggest
somewhere civilized, like Minneapolis? Alternatively, if one is so desperate
as to consider moving to Cleveland to find a programming job, might as well
drive another two hours to Pittsburgh. There probably actually are python jobs
there...

~~~
tptacek
Cleveland isn't a terrible city. You don't have to be desperate to move there.
I think we are ultimately in agreement that he should move to a real metro
area.

~~~
rdouble
I agree with moving somewhere else but will have to "agree to disagree" about
Cleveland...

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM>

~~~
timtadh
Yes it is a funny video but it isn't really representative of the city. Yes
Clevelanders have all laughed at this video. For a positive take on the city
see: <http://juliaincleveland.tumblr.com/>

------
pyre
The power of advertising at work! At the Perl Lightning Talks on Thursday at
OSCON there were dueling advertisements for Grant Street Group and
Booking.com. Grant Street Group does remote work out of Pittsburgh and
Booking.com is based out of Amsterdam (but they will pay for relocation).

Granted these are both Perl-oriented jobs, but if you really are 'at the end
of your rope' then I would make an attempt.

[I say the power of advertising at work because they both successfully pimped
their employers]

------
phektus
Get your remaining funds and start a saas website using any of the Python web
frameworks available. Just spend some time finding which problem to actually
address, and require your users to pay you on a monthly subscription (strictly
no freemium).

If this goes well you have a project that can at least help you pay the bills
at the moment. If not this would go better on your portfolio than being able
to do FizzBuzz.

Again, ask money from day one.

------
OllieJones
I understand Pixar (in the East Bay area near SF) has openings for skilled
pythonistas. They can't be alone. But they are in the bay area, not Grand
Rapids.

If you're going to stick around the upper midwest and feed your family, you
need to get your Java and C# mojo working. Don't listen to the ones who sneer
at those languages; good programming is just like good waitering -- delight
your users and you'll be fine.

------
SoftwareMaven
Do you have to stay in the area? Would you be willing to relocate?

I agree that any developer meetings (not just python) would be good for
networking.

------
mattbillenstein
Move out of Michigan -- it would seem to me half your problem or more is
looking for a job in the worst job market in America...

------
wdr1
What skills does your market demand? Given the situation, you may be better
served by focusing on adapting to what is needed (presumably more mainstream
languages like Java & C#?)

I personally wouldn't want to do either, but it sounds like you have to decide
if you want to compromise on technology or moving to a larger market.

------
driverdan
Other than the suggestions to move, why don't you have any industry
connections in your area? Go to networking events, meetups, conferences, etc.

If you can't find any get on meetup.com and create a Python meetup. Even if
you get 1 person to come you can say you organized the local meetup group.

------
jtheory
One thought, only partly in jest -- interacting directly with others is an
essential part of networking. Don't post your plea to HN and then figure
you'll check back tomorrow to see if it stirred up anything useful. :)

Advice + thoughtful response = conversation => ???

------
stretchwithme
A few ideas.

Practice your skills (google "code retreat"). If code flows from your
fingertips during interviews, you'll get the offers.

Move to where your skills are in high demand.

Try contracting. Get to know people in your area that do the work you want.
Ask them how they landed their jobs.

------
StavrosK
Wait, why are you mentioning FizzBuzz? It's like saying "I can walk in many
ways".

~~~
jarin
I think it's a way of saying "I'm not unemployed because I'm incompetent, and
I'm not emotionally attached to Python".

~~~
StavrosK
Sure, but it comes off as "I think FizzBuzz is some sort of significant
problem, as attested to by my mention of it", which acts pretty negatively.

You wouldn't expect a carpenter to say "I can both screw _and_ unscrew screws
from wood". It's sort of a given if you have the slightest bit of domain
knowledge.

~~~
edanm
I took it as a lighthearted, joking statement.

Besides, just the fact that someone knows about FizzBuzz is a good sign in my
book (also the fact that they know about HN, but I digress).

~~~
StavrosK
Heh, I think the fact that they know HN is more of a testament to ability than
FizzBuzz indeed :p

------
joelhooks
<http://www.djangojobs.org/> has a huge stack of jobs. Perhaps applying the
Python knowledge applied to Django web apps might bring home the bacon.

------
amjith
<http://amjith.posterous.com/how-to-find-local-tech-jobs>

I wrote this for Utah. But I'm sure this can be applied to other states.

------
wrath
Unsure if you're willing to relocate but there are 2 python job opening in my
company.

<http://www.gazaro.com/careers>

------
j2labs
Move to NYC. We're short on Python devs here and there's plenty of work for
anyone who's really good at it.

------
spooneybarger
Is moving out of the question?

~~~
helpmehn
Moving is on the table.

------
sitkack
put your python resume on dice, monster, list location as the bay area. get
flown out for interviews, get moving expenses paid.

------
BasDirks
I can FizzBuzz 6 languages in 3 minutes, it's nothing for an engineer to be
proud of, I'm a designer. Advice about Haskell? Drop it for now, you need food
on your table.

------
danielmorrison
helmehn,

I founded Collective Idea (<http://collectiveidea.com>) a successful and
growing Ruby shop in West Michigan (Downtown Holland). We are actively looking
for programmers, and I know many other companies in the area that are too. The
ones I've talked to recently are looking for Ruby, Objective-C, and PHP, but
I'm sure there are many, many more.

West Michigan is actually a fantastic place to be a programmer right now. We
have dirt-cheap cost of living, beautiful scenery and a number of top-notch
software companies working for major companies. (We count Fortune 100 & 500
Companies in our active client list.)

How do you get a job here?

1.) You could have emailed me. My email is on our website, and so are the
heads of companies at our competitors. I have interviewed a number of people
over the years even when we weren't hiring. I talk with our competitors
frequently, so I know who's hiring and will gladly recommend people we can't
hire.

Software companies are hiring. Ad agencies are hiring. Manufacturing & Medical
companies are hiring. Nobody needs to leave Michigan to get a great job.

2.) Go to meetups.

Grand Rapids has a large number of great meetups and user groups for Ruby
(<http://www.meetup.com/mi-ruby/>), Python
(<http://www.meetup.com/grpython/>), Linux (<http://grlug.org/>), .NET
(<http://wmdotnet.org/>) a new and huge Web Dev group
(<http://grwebdev.org/>), Software Craftsmanship (<http://softwaregr.org/>),
and many more (<http://conga-wm.org/group-list/>). The annual BarCamp is in a
few weeks (<http://barcampgr.org/>) and we even have Y-Combinator style seed
accelerator, <http://momentum-mi.com/>.

Go to any of these. Talk to people. You don't need to know "contacts in the
industry" you need to meet people. They'll tell you who to talk to, where to
apply, and how to brush up your skills.

3.) Write some code.

In the age of GitHub and SourceForge (who has coders in Grand Rapids and is
often hiring <http://geek.net/about/careers/>) there's no excuse for not
having code that you've written. Find some small project and make it better,
or contribute documentation. Don't get discouraged if you can't find a project
to hack on right away, you will. Blog about it. Talk about it.

Michigan, and especially West Michigan has some amazing programming shops,
some of the best coders I've met anywhere, and everyone is hiring. I know many
people have moved away, but there is no reason to anymore. This is a great
state, a bit underrated, with an under-the-radar software scene that is ready
to explode.

Anyone know Ruby and want to work for a Michigan company in a lakeshore town?
Talk to me.

------
sixtypoundhound
Agree with the above and would like to build on it a bit - my background is
similar to yours (math undergrad, got the equivalent of a MS-stats via
industry training programs, active Python hacker who developes in other
languages).

First - don't underestimate the value of your math skills vs. your programming
skills; I busted six figures as a stats geek long before my technical skills
got into that range. If you're good at math, this is rare & valuable -
particularly if you're also good at talking to people. (Those people are
called analytics directors and it's a nice way to make a living; plenty of
paid hacking time).

Second - agree you should consider leaving MI - NY or Boston sounds
particularly a good fit; I'd look at the financial industry. While the work
can be soul-sucking, you can build a nice bankroll relatively quickly in that
space that can fund other interests.

Third - You should definitely expand your search beyond Python. While Python
is my language of choice, I also attend PHP meetups and (infrequently) events
targeted at Oracle and Microsoft developers. Here's some (bigoted) commentary
comparing the different groups:

\- I've found the Python groups to have smarter hackers relative to the other
groups; the talks tend to go much deeper into the underlying
technology/computer science behind the topic and the dinner conversation is
better.

\- Many folks at the Python meetups are employed in roles where their focus is
using other technologies (lots of Java, some C++, several DBA/sysadmins -
Oracle, SAP).

\- Recruiter activity is fairly low at the Python meetings (0 - 2 recruiters
per event); most recruiters who come are hiring for non-Python roles. I find
this amusing, since I've identified this group as the best source for my next
analyst hire and/or technical cofounder connection.

\- The PHP group across town is about 30% larger and tends to be a bit
"fluffier" in terms of presentation content. The technical skills of the
average developer at these events is a full order of magnitude below the
Python folks - when discussing equivalent issues, the average PHP developer
has a looser grasp of system internals, how the algorithms inside the box
work, and subjects such as OOP and functional programming.

\- We have a TON of recruiters and hiring managers working the PHP meetup with
relevant web development jobs. There are generally between 3 - 5
"announcements" per session; generally from folks with LONG lists of jobs that
use PHP. A surprisingly large number of these want simple framework
developers, which I see as significantly less rigorous than the stuff my
Python buddies are working on.

\- And to fully explore the dark side of the force - I've run into tons of
recruiters looking for Java, MSFT, and Oracle people; also seen demand at good
pay for closed source packages (SAS, Microstrategy, Saleforce.com). I'm
talking about drag and drop stuff that developers would laught at. I've seen
SAS analytics rates which rival a director's pay - and aren't very rigorous
from a technical perspective (started my career as a SAS programmer working on
statistical analysis). Did you do SAS in college?

So - many options, definitely look outside Python and leverage those math
skills.

True Confession: Despite having some nicely developed programming chops in
Python/PHP/Javascript, my bills are being paid by my analytics day job - where
my relatively high priced existance is being rationalized by (wait for it)...
analytical applications I built using Access VBA, Oracle, and Sharepoint.
Stuff that makes real developers laugh hysterically. Seriously - we're making
millions of dollars a year off of these applications, most of which were
cranked out in under 2 - 4 weeks of core dev time. The latest round of
miracles does use Python, but the "cash cows" which have protected us from
layoffs... straight up SQL and Object Oriented VBA... go figure.

Point is - focus on the application space, use your highly valuable quant
skills, and, if you need the cash, don't be afraid to use corporate
technologies and lower end stuff.

------
andys627
elance.com web design. you can get jobs filling out wordpress themes and
probably make $1,000 a month at least

~~~
martey
The original poster already noted that he had tried ODesk and similar websites
(of which Elance is one). I think it would difficult for him/her to make
$1,000/month (especially working with WordPress) while competing against
developers who live in places with lower costs of living than Michigan.

~~~
rawsyntax
odesk can be tougher than it looks. I landed a couple of ruby / rails based
gigs for $50/hr there, but then the work dried up, and all I could find were
lower per hour jobs, and sketchy pay when project is completed jobs (without a
complete spec).

------
skbohra123
Move to India.

------
shareme
1\. Get your projects up at Github..stat! 2\. Find 5 programming 'Friends' do
projects for them and use them on resume..helps kick down the hr door. 3\.
Mobile is growing as far as needing testers..become familiar with winrun, etc
as far as testing mobile apps..I do see those pop up in Western Michigan..

That is about I can offer right now.. my location is NW Indiana..my solution
was to pitch to Chicago startups that are established to get something..as its
only 1 hour 40 minute train ride to Loop-Chicago..

If you feel comfortable in disclosing more details via email..my gmail account
is in my account details

Biggest step you need to do right now is 1 and 2..

------
whitmo
Have you considered moving to the bay area?

People will lick your balls for your fizzbuzz awesomeness. Can you write
tests? doesn't matter, you write python!

