
EU beckons Indian tech talent - r_singh
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/ites/eu-beckons-indian-tech-talent/articleshow/72862654.cms
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ChuckNorris89
I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech
salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole _developer
shortage_ the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify
lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad.

Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the
globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if they could
import any workers hassle free?

My ex employer was low balling everyone and after failing to recruit anyone
locally due to low pay he the focused on hiring exclusively Indians and
Chinese who were just happy to be in Europe accepting any wage citing the good
air quality and social services compared to back home.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for them, and glad they're happy here but
flooding the market with people who are happy to earn anything as long as
they're allowed to live here is not a market I'd like to compete for work in
as it increases the inequality putting all the gains in the hands of the
employers.

We have enough skilled workers in the EU. Importing people with wages under
€50k disincentivizes employers from paying fair wages and investing in local
workforce and increases income inequality. If we're talking about a shortage
of truly highly skilled people we have to import then probably we should be
talking about setting the bar way higher than €50k.

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Isinlor
> as it increases the inequality

Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it
just boils my blood.

I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can
easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and
stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get
tons of vacations, 38 hours work week.

But no, you want more. You want luxury life, you want to keep the rest of the
world underneath you.

Letting poor people compete with you on fair terms _does not_ increase
inequality. It undermines your position of power.

Western Europeans and their ancestors benefited greatly from conquest all over
the world.

Are Indians and Chinese somehow second rate people? They do not deserve to
even compete with the White Elite of Western Europe?

You should stop being egoist. Start your own company if you do not like being
employee.

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inertiatic
>But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY!

I have trouble supporting a child in Greece, with a gross household income of
around 50k.

I most certainly do not lead a luxurious life.

I shudder to think how this would work out in Western Europe where rents are
even higher than the ~500 euro most people pay here for a medium sized
apartment.

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peaceanwar
Something must be going horribly wrong in Greece. You can live easily of 30k
in the Netherlands, I would make that to even 25k. Yes, that would mean having
no car and using a bike to get around (which is common).

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foepys
I think the key phrase in GP's post is "supporting a child".

~~~
mambru
In Netherlands that is probably subsidized.

~~~
exceptione
Partly, yes. Still, parent paints a picture that in today's economic climate
is not practically true.

I have (single living) colleagues from abroad who learn it now the hard way.
Hopping from one airbnb to the other, moving al their stuff each time. Doing
this for months and they start to despair now. Even local youngsters cannot
afford a home anymore.

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elfexec
The EU has over 500 million people in a landmass that is less than half the
size of the US. Does the EU really need to import workers from overseas given
how overpopulated it is relative to its landmass size? If the EU was the size
of the US, it's population would be 1.2 billion people. Similar to china and
india. Why aren't they able to find the workers locally? Is it poor planning?
Did they not train enough tech workers? Just doesn't make sense.

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Mvandenbergh
By that logic, the US has many unemployed people and many, many people earning
low wages in low productivity industries. Why not just train them properly
rather than import workers from elsewhere?

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elfexec
I agree. I don't think we should be importing any workers. We have 330 million
people and that should be plenty. Importing workers disincentivizes US elites
from developing our own local work force. And importing workers hurts the
nation that is losing workers. Shouldn't all the indian tech workers be used
in india to help india develop? Isn't it morally wrong for a wealthy nation
like the US ( or wealthy political entity like the EU ) to leech indian
workers since it hurts india? I keep hearing that "brain drain" is a bad thing
by the media. And yet, the media celebrates brain drain when it comes to
india, china, etc. Why?

And if I think the US has enough people to fill its workforce needs, then it
applies even more to the EU since the EU has 200 million more people in a much
smaller space.

Instead of bringing in foreign workers, shouldn't the EU be asking why it
can't fill the jobs from 500+ million people? Don't you think 500 million
people is a big enough pool from which to draw your workforce?

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d44m
Going by your logic, EU will have to build their own Coca Cola, Pepsi,
Facebook, Google, and what not.

And China or India is not going to buy any of your products. Is this how you
want it to be?

Globalization predicates that capital and goods are procured from places where
they are readily available. It is what the post-WWII world was built on.
Global trade may break apart to some extant due to the nationalism resurge,
but economies of scale is real and smart businesses will leverage that.

~~~
pnako
In Europe we have Coca Cola, Pepsi, Facebook and Google without having half of
their staff working and living there. This is the traditional way of doing
business: we put stuff on big ships and send them in other countries.

You're arguing for migration of people / labor, which is a different thing.
And I don't quite see why we need knowledge workers to move in particular
places. Asians have done extremely well with semiconductors, for example. We
did not need to relocate 200,000 Taiwanese workers in Europe, but we can still
buy their chips.

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r_singh
I've firsthand noticed an increasing number of programmers from India move to
countries other than the USA in the last few years mainly due to the increase
in perceived difficulty of obtaining an H1B (I say perceived, because I'm not
sure if it is actually harder for a well deserved non outsourcing based
candidate to receive an H1B).

~~~
cryptozeus
Yes make no mistake about it. It is difficult for people with h1bs in Facebook
and google with high salaries and qualifications. Its deliberate effort. I am
not saying its good or bad but the problem do exist.

~~~
dmingod666
yea, I've heard of horror stories of decades of wait time to get a green
card.. its a horrible move IMO.

~~~
madengr
One can just come here illegally; everyone else is doing it. Seems most of the
tech hubs are sanctuary cities, so your odds of deportation are nil.

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vsskanth
Don't know if you're sarcastic. But high skilled workers would rather leave
for other countries or go back home than become illegal immigrants.

~~~
madengr
Yes, sarcasm.

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emeraldx
As far as I know, there is a minimum salary requirement for the Blue Card
visa. So this blows the 'Cheap-talent-taking-over, Reduced-average-wages'
argument out of the water.

IMO, the reason this is happening is simple. 1) H1-B visas have an arbitrary
numerical limitation every year, which is not tied to reflect the actual
dearth of talent, and hasn't been updated since years.

2) They're extremely unreliable. You can only apply once a year, and it's a
lottery. So employers aren't even sure if the candidate currently interviewing
can get a work permit if hired. And the wait time to reapply is one year. Very
inefficient.

3) The EU/Canada/Australia have a very streamlined visa process, allowing
qualified candidates to quickly get a visa. Easy to attract and retain talent.

If done right, these countries will benefit hugely like the US did in past
decades. The new workers means more taxes, more demand/consumer spending and
hence boost to the economy.

Also, I must mention the low birth rates in EU (as normally happens in
developed countries) which will start to show next generation onwards. If not
for these new immigrants and their tax dollars (euros/francs/kronas) it'll be
hard to keep up with the social benefits and expenditure. If not for
immigration these countries will end up like Japan with an old population and
in massive, compounding debt.

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tasubotadas
This article provides no data to support their claims apart a few opinions
thus it should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt.

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qnsi
I think you should beckon Indian journalistic talent

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BiteCode_dev
It's funny because in France, we are loosing french tech talents to the US.

~~~
odiroot
From what I've heard Germany is also losing a lot of talent to the us and to
Switzerland as well.

Higher salaries, lower taxes, maybe even more interesting gigs. All good
reasons to take the leap.

~~~
blue_box
I can confirm that. My german friend just accepted a job in Sweden. He also
applied for the companies in Germany but they pay really low salaries and the
companies are not that insteresting.

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asadkn
It's odd to talk about EU as one. I can hire from EU countries that are on-par
or even cheaper than India (at some skill level).

Yes I am talking about some of Balkans (Serbia, Greece), Baltics (Estonia,
Lithuania), Eastern EU (Ukraine, Bulgaria, Romania) where the rates can be
$20-30 an hour for very decent devs.

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rrrazdan
A counterpoint to the article. As a founder in India we have recently started
thinking about hiring people from EU, especially the eastern part.

If however the criteria and salary for a good programmer is EUR 42k pa as a
comment below suggests, you can earn decently more than that at multiple
companies, including mine.

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r_singh
I think you mistook the minimum required contract value for an apt salary for
a good programmer.

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blue_box
It is really easy to get a blue card. You just need a contract (higher than
€42K) and diploma (which is relevant to your job). That's all. Not only from
India, I think EU beckons tech talent from all Level 3 countries.

~~~
bogomipz
How does the blue card work? Is it only valid as long as you work for the
employer that sponsored you to get it? Can you change employers after some
amount of time and still retain it?

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blue_box
If you have an unlimited contract, you can get a blue card which is valid for
4 year (of course you can get permanent residence permit after 33 months).
Otherwise it will be limited to your contract period. You will see the company
name on your working permit. If you quit, you have 3 months to find a new job.
Afterwards, you renew your working permit. So you can change your job but it
has to have the same standards. (must be relevant to your education and higher
than the salary limit)

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sputr
I've been telling IT companies for 10 years that if they all relay on 'others'
to train their workers while they only hire the experienced ones... None new
will be trained with obvious results.

As a developer I'm 'fine' with this as it drives my price to many times the
median salary.

But its not just IT. Our entire economy is crying about the lack of
EXPERIENCED workers. But on the other hand there are still soo many
unemployed, especially among the young (often unregistered and thus missing
from statistics). No wonder seeing how there are almost no entry level jobs
offered.

I used to belive in the 'not enough programmers' line. Now I think it's just
yet another unsustainable way to avoid to actually do the necessary socialy
responsible tasks that are part of doing business. Train your damn workers and
take responsibility for the short-sighted decisions you made years ago.

Companies are like children. They will constantly try to push the limit in
their own short-sighted interests. Its the job of government to, in the name
of wider society, play the role of the parent and make sure that the negative
effects of decisions are primarily felt by those who made the decisions.

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jariel
Europeans and Canadians move to the US, Indian and Chinese move to Europe and
Canada.

This is mostly a salary issue.

~~~
mkbkn
So true. +1

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huffmsa
Oh Europe, pillaged the natural resources of India for centuries.

Now you're stealing it's best and brightest for your own gain.

Never change.

~~~
nine_zeros
They are literally following SVs playbook. If you ever go to SV, you would
know how the US tech industry is almost entirely immigrants or first
generation kids. If EU continues down this path, in 10 years, EU has a chance
of remaining relevant in the world.

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thbr99
Going by the general tone of comments here. How about making something like
the old Chineese head tax in Canada. Let's restrict Indians & Chineese and
allow only whites to immigrate. Then I think it would be OK for everyone
white. Racism,white privilege, white entitlement exists in HN at this day &
age.

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bingerman
Equating serious concern of the effects of cheap foreign labour with racism is
a wonderful way to prevent any meaningful discussion. Bonus points for
antagonizing white people, that kind of pure racism is not really helping
anyone.

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timwaagh
it's kinda sad european programmers get pushed out of entry level positions by
typically more experienced indians willing to work for some premium above
indian wage. this ensures programming is not a very well paid job in west
europe. europe has problems in the education system which makes sure people
only start programming after college further putting eu workers at a
disadvantage versus indians and russians. which isn't to say i'm against
economic immigration completely, but if countries are going to be imposing
migration restrictions, they should not make an exception for programming when
they do for similarly paid professions, like chefs or hairdressers.

~~~
scribu
> europe has problems in the education system which makes sure people only
> start programming after college further

In Romania (Eastern Europe) you can start to learn programming from high
school. Not sure what it's like in Western Europe.

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ossworkerrights
The romanian education system is grossly overrated by people from that
country. From experience, the quality of engineering there is only marginally
better than that of india and statistically speaking the education system is
the second worst in europe. Universities are ripe with corruption as well.
There are some good engineers but overall it is horrible.

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d44m
I look at it as a simple trade of goods. Hiring a Software Engineer from India
is like an Indian buying a German car.

If Germany can export cars to India and France can export wines, then India
can export their talent.

So, if you are confident of your skills and what they are worth, you should
naturally go to the USA.

~~~
pnako
The best way to export talent is to export the product of talent. That's what
Germans do when they export their cars. They don't send German graduates all
over the world; they build cars in Germany and export them. India can do the
same with software.

It's actually a better system for everyone. Mass migration is very disruptive,
whereas trade in goods and services tends to be less controversial.

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corporateslave5
Cheap labor to make the rich get richer

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mangatmodi
We are talking about tech. It is not cheap.

~~~
inertiatic
It's cheaper than the current options, and yields gigantic returns for most
large tech companies.

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layoutIfNeeded
Durgasoft?

