
Jeff Bezos' email to Amazonians - Nemant
Dear Amazonians,<p>If you haven&#x27;t already, I encourage you to give this (very long) New York Times article a careful read:<p>http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;08&#x2F;16&#x2F;technology&#x2F;inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html<p>I also encourage you to read this very different take by a current Amazonian:<p>https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.linkedin.com&#x2F;pulse&#x2F;amazonians-response-inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-nick-ciubotariu<p>Here’s why I’m writing you. The NYT article prominently features anecdotes describing shockingly callous management practices, including people being treated without empathy while enduring family tragedies and serious health problems. The article doesn’t describe the Amazon I know or the caring Amazonians I work with every day. But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at [edited]@amazon.com. Even if it&#x27;s rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero.<p>The article goes further than reporting isolated anecdotes. It claims that our intentional approach is to create a soulless, dystopian workplace where no fun is had and no laughter heard. Again, I don’t recognize this Amazon and I very much hope you don’t, either. More broadly, I don&#x27;t think any company adopting the approach portrayed could survive, much less thrive, in today’s highly competitive tech hiring market. The people we hire here are the best of the best. You are recruited every day by other world-class companies, and you can work anywhere you want.<p>I strongly believe that anyone working in a company that really is like the one described in the NYT would be crazy to stay. I know I would leave such a company.<p>But hopefully, you don&#x27;t recognize the company described. Hopefully, you’re having fun working with a bunch of brilliant teammates, helping invent the future, and laughing along the way.<p>Thank you,<p>Jeff
======
Mithaldu
Full email content previously here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10071600](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10071600)

Also note that the redacted email is not anything special. It's just jeff@,
making it a highly dangerous proposition for amazon employes to attempt to
send anything there.

------
bkeroack
Everyone should read Steve Yegge's classic rant about Amazon (vs
Google/Facebook)[1], in particular his description of Bezos:

"We're talking about a guy who in all seriousness has said on many public
occasions that people should be paying him to work at Amazon. He hands out
little yellow stickies with his name on them, reminding people "who runs the
company" when they disagree with him. The guy is a regular... well, Steve
Jobs, I guess. Except without the fashion or design sense. Bezos is super
smart; don't get me wrong. He just makes ordinary control freaks look like
stoned hippies."

1\.
[https://plus.google.com/+RipRowan/posts/eVeouesvaVX](https://plus.google.com/+RipRowan/posts/eVeouesvaVX)

~~~
airza
Every time I read it I'm confused about the first sentence... Does he mean
everyone?

~~~
bkeroack
I interpret it as "employees are told they [employees] should be paying him
[Bezos] for the privilege of being able to work at Amazon, rather than being
paid a salary by Amazon".

------
jnbiche
I think it's kind of telling that the author of the pro-Amazon blog piece was
contacted by "someone internal" (probably his boss or boss's boss) and asked
if he had cleared the piece with PR and if he had read the company's social
media policy (in my big company experience, that kind of contact is never a
good thing).

Presumably he'll be fine now since Bezos is citing his writing, but I can't
help but wonder what the "someone internal" would have done
otherwise...probably issued some kind of warning about social media.

~~~
fweespeech
Yeah it is very telling. Its pretty clear they have a very strong "You must
toe the party line in public" policy and that is never a good sign.

~~~
ajross
True enough, though that's hardly unique to Amazon either. Apple is likewise
famous for that.

Really, I'm seeing a bunch of grousing here on HN that doesn't seem to support
the NYT allegations at all, which are much more serious.

~~~
fweespeech
Yes but I've never worked for such a company and it seems to be mostly "big
names" that, frankly, I wouldn't want to work for anyway.

So to me its still "odd".

------
t0mbstone
“Even if it’s rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy
needs to be zero,” Mr. Bezos said in an email circulated to all the retailer’s
employees.

My note: Zero tolerance policies without recourse for correction are a perfect
example of the Amazon inhumanity. Straight from the mouth of the leader.
There's your culture problem right there.

------
partisan
"doesn’t describe the Amazon I know " \- I've heard that type of excuse used
time and time again by higher ups who are actually just shedding
responsibility for the culture they've cultivated. It adds insult to injury.

~~~
_-__---
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)

~~~
zck
A "no true Scotsman" fallacy would be a response like "the people acting this
way aren't true to the Amazon spirit".

Instead, the response is "I don't see that happening at Amazon". That's a
direct refutation of what's being claimed. Whether you believe it or not is a
separate story.

------
bitshepherd
Amazon has built itself a reputation for being a meat grinder, where bright-
eyed employees go to be burned out, only to be replaced by another. Even their
interview process reflects this sad state of affairs.

That reputation wasn't built overnight, and it won't change overnight, despite
what one out-of-touch billionaire says.

~~~
logfromblammo
Speaking of their interview process, I am occasionally contacted by Amazon
recruiters. I always ask them to explain negative reports of their work
culture from various sources. I include links. Now I can use a NY Times
article!

The recruiter response is, invariably, that the article that I read did not
really say what it said, or that the things that I thought were bad are
actually good. None of my questions about workplace specifics ever get
answered. One of these is always "Do you expect salaried employees to work
more than 40 hours per week?"

Seems like that would be an easy one to answer, right? Just say either "no",
or "yes" and a specific number. They have never answered directly; it has been
equivocating all the way.

So I'm not surprised at all that Bezos would simply deny what is actually
happening on his watch, as reported by current and former employees, far below
the C-level ranks. As they say, the first obstacle to fixing your problem is
admitting you have one.

------
norea-armozel
I like the idea of getting employees to 'dream big' but pushing their families
and personal time to the side or outright eliminating it is a huge problem
with companies like Amazon (imo they're not an isolated company as I've heard
similar stories from friends who have worked in SV). It just doesn't seem to
me that productivity for its own sake is a dangerous precedent since it
doesn't pay back to the employees what's lost (time with one's children,
spouse, and friends).

Programming is not anything like working on a factory line. On a factory line
you fill one tiny task of assembly and/or inspection within an allotted time
frame and production quota. Programming it's a matter of analysis even on the
most mundane task of bug fixing. Analysis takes a variable amount of _time_
which sometimes over shoots estimates since a problem or a desired feature per
business requirements can be found to be novel to the existing codebase. Or
sometimes we're lucky as programmers and it's as easy as expanding on a tiny
sliver of existing business logic but that isn't a guarantee by any stretch of
the imagination.

------
stygiansonic
HN discussion on the original NYT article:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10065243](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10065243)

Earlier response by Tim Bray (who works at Amazon):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10070115](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10070115)

------
uiberto
> I want you to escalate to HR

(to determine if we can safely fire you)

~~~
brador
HR works for the company not you. You'd be crazy to escalate anything that
could get you fired or demoted to HR.

If you do want to leave, find a job somewhere else, give notice to leave, then
at the leaving interview say only nice things, smile, nod, so you don't get
screwed on the recommendation call. Then leave.

Once again, HR is not your friend.

------
toyg
From the pro-Amazon blog:

 _" because the NYT article is [...] designed to make past data reflect
current reality at a company that has done quite a bit to change its ways "_

So uhm, "ok we were bad but now we are better, honest!"...

------
venomsnake
Words are cheap. (Unless priced by the agency model on kindle).

------
pmiranda
Some parts are very telling (in order):

1\. There is no example in the email of nice act(s) that he is personally
aware. Just like politicians do, he should have put: "This doesn't describe
the Amazon that gave Mr. X two-months paid leave to deal with his wife cancer
or when Susan had ...".

2\. Threatening tone: If you know of anything escalate to HR or email me. That
is some comfort. Dear billionaire: The NYT article reflects 100% of my
experience at Amazon. Please help. Best, Insignificant Analyst

3\. "... our tolerance ... needs to be zero". Needs to be??? Are we at 20%
tolerance level? Why it isn't zero already?

4\. "...I don't recognize this Amazon and I very much hope you don't either".
Hope??? Are you kidding? Should be: I'm SURE you don't either".

5\. "...I don't think any company ...could survive...thrive...in today's
highly competitive tech market". Translation: Our stock price tells me we are
on the right track so FU NYT.

6\. "People we hire here are the best of the best". Err... if you go to a
random coffee shop in SF and ask the first 100 people in the door where the
best of the best work I bet Amazon would probably account for <3% of the
answers.

7\. "You are recruited everyday ... you can work anywhere you want."
Translation: employment here as at will. If you don't like it there is plenty
other places for you to work. So don't even bother sending me that email to me
or escalating this to HR. Just leave.

8\. "I know I would leave such company." Finished too early the sentence he
should have continued: "leave such company, but I can't because IT IS MY
COMPANY. When you get your own company and become a billionaire like me you
will understand. In the mean time just leave so I can hire another guy just
like you.

9\. Again, Jeff is full of hope. Should be: I'm sure the Amazon described in
the NYT article doesn't exist. We are a fun place to work..."

10\. Thank you!!!! Really? The NYT picks you to pieces and you end the email
to "rally your troops" with Thank you? No call action, no initiative, no
passion, no "let's prove them wrong"???

------
1arity
> So true. There is certainly skill involved, one of them is almost certainly
> the ability and willingness to exploit your fellow human beings. I'm
> completely lacking in that skill so, woe is me, I will never make a billion.
> . .

If you want to pretend you’re the noble righteous fake victim of other’s
exploitations, and if you want to pretend that people who are really
successful are “evil” and their success is somehow fake as it’s founded on
exploiting people, you’re just suckling to the disempowering lie that so many
people delude themselves with : instead of taking responsibility for your
success, and believing, correctly, that it is about the choices you make, you
look at the successful, choose jealously over inspiration, and instead of
creating improvements to better your situation, you delude yourself with
fabrications to diminish their success and make you feel better, closing the
perceived gap between you lack of success and their success, not by taking
real action that could create results for you, but by believing these lies for
the fake pay off of pretending others are “wrong” and you are “right”.

It’s sad you fell back onto this fake victim delusion, instead of choosing to
take responsibility for your life and create improvements that could lead to
results for you. And it’s sad that you saw in my sincere words trolling,
what’s triggered for you there is what you bring to it, and what’s triggered
for you is your responsibility, it’s got nothing to do with me. Pretending it
does is just being a fake victim, again, instead of taking responsibility.

------
midwestguy
This note from Bezos is cruel, farcical and delusional.

Have we forgotten all the reporting on exploitation of labor in Amazon's
supply chain, from the Verge story on how Amazon was having warehouse workers
sign 18-month non-complete clauses; through the Independent's account of
Amazon's recruitment of neo-Nazi security guards to intimidate immigrant
workers working and living in crowded dormitories in Germany; through the
Mother Jones first-person account of the soul-crushing and body-destroying
conditions inside these same warehouses; through the stories about the 100
degree conditions in some warehouses, where Bezos was too cheap to buy air-
conditioning and preferred to have ambulances waiting outside to carry off
workers as they dropped from heat exhaustion? (Naked capitalism blog has a
good review of all this).

Now we see that this same callous attitude towards "human capital" extends to
the white-collar employees in head office, and suddenly everyone is shocked,
just shocked, and we get this BS denial from the CEO.

The real story here is the pervasive and intensifying erosion of working
conditions (and in fact, wages) for all workers, at all levels of our
oligarchical capitalist economy.

------
lamontcg
The "different take by a current Amazonian" is amusing

\- only work there for 18 months \- technical bar raiser \- engineering leader

If you're one of the chosen ones then Amazon is a great place to work, and its
a SDE-driven culture, and if you're on top of that, then life is good.

And the claim that there's no "culling of the herd" is false. Its called top
grading. Managers stack rack employees during the annual performance review
process and a certain percentage out of any group must be given the lowest
reviews and put on "PIPs" (in other words starting the process of firing
them).

And I'm a non-anonymous ex-Amazon employee that worked there for 5 years.

The company may not be as bad as the worst examples from the NYT piece, but
its far from a good company to work for. Best advice for any current Amazonian
is to work there just long enough to get it on your resume and learn stuff,
then switch jobs, get more pay and find a better environment.

------
1arity
> your entire post is a pretty damning conviction of yourself. I feel sorry
> for you.

Not really. I'm not substituting hating on others success and pretending it's
"evil" as a substitute for actually taking responsibility, creating
improvements and getting results.

That's what I'm pointing out critics of Amazon are deluding themselves with,
and this attitude, the fake victim attitude, the I-don't-have-a-choice
attitude, is fundamentally disempowering. It's the very cause of their
purported disempowerment, and it's not going to help them achieve results, or
create improvements -- leading them to have more things to complain about,
which, unworkably, they blame on others.

------
confluence
Jeff Bezos: Out of touch with reality since 1999

~~~
weavie
I don't think he would be worth $50b if he really was out of touch.

~~~
ranci
There are plenty of out of touch billionaire dinosaurs. Google Sheldon
Adelson. Google Robert Kraft. He remains 100% convinced that nobody below him
has ever violated any rules or cheated. Having billions of dollars is the
quickest path to becoming an out of touch dinosaur.

~~~
1arity
Out of touch with what? I think the person who is out of touch with reality is
the person who doesn't know how to get what they want from reality. And who
doesn't want " 1 billion dollars " ?

~~~
demachina
I don’t, especially when you experience the things you will have to do to get
it and keep it.

You might want to read some thoughts from a guy named Siddhartha. Craving a
billion dollars is just going to make you miserable until you get it, and then
when you have it you will crave another billion or something equally toxic to
your well being.

Money and spending it is just another kind of drug. Once you have it and all
the stuff you can buy with it you will become an addict. You will then crave a
new and bigger high trying to acquire or spend even more of it. You know what
kind of stuff junkies do to get a fix, billionaires are pretty similar, hence
this topic we are discussing here today.

Its way better to stay grounded, do the things you love, and enjoy life. If
you can make a billion doing that then you probably should take it, but it
shouldn’t be your goal in life unless you want to turn in to a complete ass.

~~~
1arity
Wanting it is one thing. Do you have the skill to get it is another? People
talk a lot of trash excusing themselves for not having the skill to get it,
pretending that they never wanted it. You only have the luxury of the choice
you talk of, when you really have that choice, when you could make that
billion, and then you renounce it. Otherwise, it's just kidding yourself.
Think on that, grasshopper.

~~~
demachina
So true. There is certainly skill involved, one of them is almost certainly
the ability and willingness to exploit your fellow human beings. I'm
completely lacking in that skill so, woe is me, I will never make a billion.

It seems I will have to settle for doing the things I love, enjoying life, as
I strive to avoid screwing people.

You do seem to be the sensei of trolldom and to have found your one true
skill.

------
1arity
> Your entire post is a pretty damning conviction of yourself. I feel sorry
> for you.

I'm pretty sure you don't know me, and I get that you're comfortable offering
your certain opinion of me based on not actually knowing me, tho I don't want
that to dismiss what you said because this leads to a very important point.

Speak about anything you care about -- not just the things you feel you are
immune to judgement on yourself.

This is so important.

in other words, if i'm only going to express an opinion on subjects i'm safe
from judgement on, that doesn't make me a very reliable source ( huge personal
bias ) and i'm choosing to try to protect my ego ( and also not challenge
myself in what could be opportunities for improvement ) instead of saying
something inspiring with regards to ways improvements could be made in
general.

if i did that id be choosing ego and me over contributing to technology and
progress and success. that doesn't work.

it's pretty simple. i believe in technology, humanity and progress and
success, and i see clearly a lot of the ways that people limit themselves and
their thinking and sometimes i choose to say something about it. a reason
contributing to that choice is because i care about these things, and it works
for people to work on them, and if you are not working on them, not because
you're not capable but because your perspective doesn't work, then theres a
big opportunity for improvement, that sometimes i choose to contribute to
meeting with what i say.

i know i pick the subjects that get the most pushback, and a reason
contributing to this for me is because this is the ones that are holding
people back the most, the ones that are most important and where people are
most stuck by the clarity missing from the ways they are getting in their own
way. it's like the importance of working on the big opportunities, if you only
pick the areas where there are small safe bets, you think small and the
results you get will be small.

so in contributing to the meta opportunity of the psychology with which people
approach this work, just like with the opportunities in tech themselves, if
you choose to contribute to the area with the riskiest biggest bets the
results you get will be the greatest.

what i am doing by pushing back here in the middle of controversy is the very
essence of what we do as founders.

------
holografix
Translation:

"If you haven't already, I encourage you to give this (very long) New York
Times article a careful read"

\- I can't stop you from reading it so go ahead, we have nothing to hide. It's
"very long" ie. No one has time to read it all and you shouldn't either/it's
of bad quality and could easily be summarized.

"I also encourage you to read this very different take by a current
Amazonian:"

\- said article has no merit versus an article written by someone who actually
works here. Never mind the bias.

"Here’s why I’m writing you. The NYT article prominently features anecdotes
describing shockingly callous management practices, including people being
treated without empathy while enduring family tragedies and serious health
problems. The article doesn’t describe the Amazon I know or the caring
Amazonians I work with every day. But if you know of any stories like those
reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at
[edited]@amazon.com. Even if it's rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such
lack of empathy needs to be zero."

\- these are bizarre isolated cases, empathy must be respected. Probably
because there are serious legal ramifications for us if we don't so donth take
it elsewhere, raise internally so we can make it go away. Also note that I
dont mention working you to a pulp on weekends etc. Fuck you. You're here to
satisfy my "vision".

"The article goes further than reporting isolated anecdotes. It claims that
our intentional approach is to create a soulless, dystopian workplace where no
fun is had and no laughter heard. Again, I don’t recognize this Amazon and I
very much hope you don’t, either. More broadly, I don't think any company
adopting the approach portrayed could survive, much less thrive, in today’s
highly competitive tech hiring market. The people we hire here are the best of
the best. You are recruited every day by other world-class companies, and you
can work anywhere you want."

\- again, isolated cases so all good. You better not think like that, you're
an "amazonian" we're fucking hard to get into, we're "world class". You should
be thankful we gave you a chance. We THRIVE mother fucker are you a loser or
an amabot?

"I strongly believe that anyone working in a company that really is like the
one described in the NYT would be crazy to stay. I know I would leave such a
company.

But hopefully, you don't recognize the company described. Hopefully, you’re
having fun working with a bunch of brilliant teammates, helping invent the
future, and laughing along the way."

\- if you feel like that get out. We don't care. Get out. But if you don't,
you're a winner who laughs at working your life away for me while I amaze
myself at what people will do to remain "winning".

------
Epicism
Does it piss anyone else off that he uses the term anecdote? 'I was forced to
go back to work the day after my miscarriage' What an anecdote! Just makes me
believe that he is a megalomaniac and a bit of a psychopath.

------
coldcode
I'd rather hear laughter from the actual employees than the CEO.

------
1arity
People will hate.

If their opinion was worth 1 fucking dollar -- then Amazon wouldn't be.

Then Bezos wouldn't be.

People vote with their aspirations and their payments every fucking day.

Who cares what some jaded loser writers put towards their credo of anti-
corporate injustice fabrication?

It just perpetuates their deluded worldview and makes it easier for them to
deal with the suffering they endured from their own choices that left them
without a cent. And they're jealous, and they go to invent an evil, to pretend
they're right, to make them feel better, about not having any proof of how
"right" they feel they are.

The one's who are "right" \-- they have the money. Because they understood
what reality is.

It's simple.

[ Hello to everyone -- I will take your hate all day and make it awesome. I
know there's a lot of delusion triggered by this article, especially when
someone pushes back against the compelling fake view that a hugely successful
company is "evil" \-- bring it, I am here to help you see clearly. Please tho,
keep it here, abusive emails will be published. ]

~~~
rubiquity
> _The one 's who are "right" \-- they have the money. Because they understood
> what reality is._

Your entire post is a pretty damning conviction of yourself. I feel sorry for
you.

~~~
1arity
If I tar myself with the same brush -- what of it ? If what I say is correct,
even if I express the same dysfunctional pattern, what of it? The fact that I
may or may not see it in myself doesn't affect my ability to see it in other
people.

I don't require your pity, I accept it tho, if that's what you want to give.
It just makes you feel better. Feeling sorry for someone is a way to make
yourself feel better than them, revealing your own insecurity.

I'm always looking to learn and for opportunities to improve. Could what I
describe of others be something I do ? Of course.

At least I have the courage to say it, perhaps knowing that I exhibit it
still. Willing to learn. I am. Are you?

Start where you are. Or you'll never get where you want to be.

Struggling against blaming others, instead of taking responsibility,
struggling against doing, instead of hating, is something anyone can
encounter. The point is, to see you have a choice, and choose something that
works.

If you want to pretend you're already above that, and look down on me, the
very need to look down on me shows me you aren't. If you were past this, and I
wasn't, you'd help me with it. That's what you do when you've been through
something.

When you haven't been through it, you can be afraid of it, and you accuse
others of it to deny it of yourself. Because you haven't yet owned up to
dealing with it yet.

That's the mechanism. That's what going on here.

So maybe your statement was just a damning accusation of you.

If you're gonna get personal you got to be prepared for how that reflects on
you.

