
Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition - varbhat
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2020/07/20/online-classes-are-not-worth-cost-of-full-tuition.html
======
game_the0ry
A couple of years ago, I was looking into MOOCs for tech education, Udacity's
nano degree in particular. I remember stumbling across a video on Youtube
where some Udacity folks were discussing the merits of online education with
college professors and admins.

What stood out to me was how vehemently the college folks were against online
education. They were visibly livid - there was no way substituting a live
class room environment with online education could be as effective, they
shouted. They were obviously threatened - they did not want the world they
were so comfortable with to change.

Now they are singing a different tune once they don't have a choice - not only
are colleges embracing online classes, they are trying to justify full cost
for it too.

College students heading into the fall semester should take a gap year. I know
I would.

~~~
humanistbot
Except "embracing" is definitely not the right word. Very few professors I
know are happy about this whole situation. Universities are begrudgingly
accepting the fact that they can't have in-person classes, so they have to
turn to online alternatives. Tuition can't be changed because the few costs
that are being saved (facilities still need maintenance) are offset by the
massive losses in revenue from student housing and the added costs in prepping
online classes. Very few professors are thinking that they're delivering the
same quality of education online, even though they're having to work even more
to create and deliver an online alternative from scratch, plus having to teach
themselves video production skills.

~~~
rdslw
> Tuition can't be changed because (whatever)

Nope. What you're saying is "I cant restructure my business becasue I have
high costs".

Your competitor disrupting your business could not care less.

~~~
ntsplnkv2
Online courses have been around for years and they all still suck.

If anything this is a boon to colleges in the long run - it has proven,
without a doubt, how much worse online learning truly is. It has been around
for a decade now - and it still sucks.

~~~
Melting_Harps
> Online courses have been around for years and they all still suck.

I think this is ultimately a subjective thing, I don't really think something
like CompSci (a subject most here studied) needs to be on a campus based
lecture basis, but I can see why someone who needs more 'hand-holding' and
wants the campus life experience would say this.

I was in an actual Science major, Biology, where your physical presence is
needed for lab work as so much of it is just repeating your work (and ideally
know why it failed) as experiments fail so often--the experiments are actually
incredibly archaic and way far behind the Industry standards, where so much of
it is actually outsourced for a reason. So watching youtube videos on
distillations and titrations is just about as useful as you will never
actually do that in a lab, as its a waste of man-power/labour costs. Reagents
and precursor molecules are never going to be made in house by anyone, you buy
them like you do bio-markers, so why bother wasting an undergrad student's
time making them do it instead of teaching them how to use more modern
apparatuses that are actually used in the Industry? I thin it's because that's
what grad school is ultimately for and for that you have to 'pay to play' as
it were.

The lectures and exams for my major, however, should have been entirely Online
in my opinion; we had mainly tenured Post-docs doing research teaching our
classes which was always a f'ing nightmare as you could tell they were only
doing it out of obligation. The one saving race being that they did give hints
as to what was on the exam when you attended which could save you hours/days
of overstudying if all you did was just look at the book/slides, so I ended up
creating a study group with 5 other students where we alternated going to
lecture and recording it and then uploading online so we could follow along
with the slides and book at home as most of us had to work. This should be the
standard! Because the truth is there is simply no way to cover 7 chapters for
a midterm for 3-5 lectures plus quizzes on various subjects, plus lab
practicals for each one every semester and have any chance of passing those
courses, and then on top of that they think you're going to retain even 20% of
that information?!

It's the optimized pump-dump model of rote-learning that they're really
'teaching' which is why so many recent-grads are almost entirely useless
if/when they get to the Industry for the first year or so. They're being mis-
led about the expectations and working conditions of the roles they're going
to fill, which is also probably why so few actually end up in the Industry
they studied for.

Some of my best professors openly discussed in private how the models is
incredibly broken, some even going so far as to say they wish they could get
rid of the grading system entirely as its not a very good gauge as they
admitted all they are really gauging is how good you are at repeating what was
said to you back them without having much room for interpretation or nuance in
the discussion, there is simply no time for it given all the constraints.
Which incidentally is what the Scientific Model is actually operating on:
self-regulating system that questions and even tries to defy conventional
wisdom at every step to arrive to a viable conclusion and the cycle repeats
itself never really having a 'definitive' of answer, simply a better one than
the previous one. And the reality is, no one really replicates any of the peer
reviewed journals and its well-documented that they do not, even outside of
Academia.

I'll agree that Online learning has some disadvantages but the trade-offs are
worth it, and the alternative is remaining with this perversely bloated form
of indentured servitude for the benefit of very few that is gamed by those who
have the means and resources to do so, be it in Enrollment or even within it.

I learned to code, albeit not very well, almost entirely from Online sources
be it Coursera/Udemy for the basics, and then Stackoverflow for my questions
on why things didn't work but it was enough to be able to create a fintech
startup, the first of it's kind in fact, where as CTO I ultimately ended up
outsourcing the work needed to better developers and I focuses on product
development, UX and sales. I learned about Bitcoin/Blockchain from my deep
interest in the subject of economics and Anarchist philosphy that spanned
decades, which was mainly taught from Online sources and epub books. I ended
up at IBM that way and saw very quickly how grad students from illustrious
universities in 'blockchain like disciplines' could barely grasp something
that I understood very well from my first year involved in the Bitcoin
Community where we had amazing developers and cryptologists openly having
conversations with anyone interested on the subject about how this tech worked
and what its goals were in a complicated, but entirely comprehensible level if
you were motivated enough to want to do some legwork to understand.

I think you're making a blanket statement which is more a reflection of you as
an individual, as it really just depends on what subject you're studying.

For example: I went back to school for Supply Chain and Logistics and
Business/Warehouse Data Analytics (most of these are Master level courses) in
order to update my CV but I have already worked for several Automotive Multi-
nationals in the past in this sector, so I know what actually works and what
is just fluff to pad the course out to the 10-15 week requirements (depending
on quarter vs semester, as I've done both) and there is 100% no reason why any
of it should be done in person, at all.

I really mean no benefit of it what so ever, in fact I'd go so far as to say
that if it had like designated Online office hours/chat/video conference you
could sign up for and have it posted in the internal forum/discussion board
for future review it would be a superior model to that of University at a
fraction of the cost. I'd even pay extra for those features just so I don't
have to make the effort to be somewhere during the day and choose to finish a
course at my own pace in my extra time.

~~~
ntsplnkv2
In general this same idea is repeated ad nauseum - "why are they not teaching
things people will use in the real world." Do tell, does every software
engineer do the same thing? Does every carpenter? Does every engineer? Your
post encapsulates the "Silicon Valley Dream" perfectly - the dream - because
you have to be asleep to believe it.

It is an infectious production-ism. A thing is only valuable if it makes
money. An idea only valuable if it makes money, or produces, here, and now.
And then you complain of professors who don't care - but this is the result of
what you want. The professors are focusing on productivity and what makes
money. This isn't endemic to the system. It comes from without.

The survivor-ship bias is just too hard to ignore. "Just get involved. Read
forums, go to stack overflow, this is the true way to learn. I'm taking a
business course and it's a joke to me therefore it is worthless. Just build it
in your garage." Most people are not you. Most people are not people on HN.
They want to have lives - not spend every waking moment learning about
bitcoin. Many of them will never have any subject they love so deeply. Some
will love economically worthless topics. Many just want to get a job to pay
for the other parts of their lives.

> I think you're making a blanket statement which is more a reflection of you
> as an individual, as it really just depends on what subject you're studying.

It doesn't depend at all on subject. There is a motivated person out there
that can learn anything online - they will buy the materials, and do it
themselves. Most are not this person. My statement is based on my experience
as well as the fact the market has not shifted despite years of online
options.

The market has already determined - the online options work best for part time
learners and CV chasers (like the supply chain course. Business school in
general is built for industry - industry doesn't care what you learn in it,
they just want it. That is what you should be complaining about. The
universities that offer it are just filling a need.)

------
chadash
There's something about being on a campus that made a big difference for me in
college. Some experiences that I had that are hard to replicate remotely
include:

* Group discussions in seminars. When you are in person, there's a better dynamic to holding a discussion. You can read others' body language and see when to speak up. Zoom works fine for very small groups (<7) but anything larger than that and it seems to get out of hand in my experience.

* Impromptu chats after class with professors to ask questions that I don't want to bug everyone else with. Same goes for chats during office hours.

* The opportunity to stumble upon events that you otherwise wouldn't have been exposed to. For example, I'm not muslim, but I attended a series of lectures on Islam aimed at Muslim students, put on by the Muslim student association. I learned a lot there and got to speak to fellow students and learn about their views and experiences firsthand. You're not gonna find an event like that online, and even if you did, you'd have to have filtered through all the other garbage on the internet to find it.

* Playing intramural broomball after pre-gaming with my friends. Aside from good memories, the social connections you make in college are very important and can help you a lot later in life. Many years later and it's great having a network of people in all sorts of industries.

* Living in a freshman dorm and getting exposed to people from many different backgrounds for the first time in my life. If you grew up in one place, then almost by definition, you didn't have much diversity in K-12.

You can't really replicate these remotely and in my mind, these sorts of
things were half the value of college for me. And this is aside from the fact
that I personally find it _very_ hard to pay attention on a zoom lecture,
especially if I'm sitting through 4 or 5 of them a day.

~~~
xigency
Would you really pay half the sticker price of college to receive those social
experiences only, without the academics and diploma? The majority of those
experiences are self-organized and don’t cost the university anything. Even if
that is half the value of the college experience, it’s much cheaper than that.
Why not live in a college town and hang around near the campus instead?

~~~
chadash
> Would you really pay half the sticker price of college to receive those
> social experiences only, without the academics and diploma?

It's hard to break out the costs. When I go to a nice restaurant, I wouldn't
pay 50% for the ambiance alone without the food or for the food without the
ambiance. It's a package and the sum is worth more than the pieces.

I might pay full tuition for remote college if i'm in my last semester, for
example. But otherwise, I don't think it's worth it.

------
kumarvvr
Despite all the discussion about online classes, there is one fundamental
aspect of online teaching, that isn't fully 'disrupted'

Keeping students attention on the class.

Technology may improve, economics may change, industries created and
destroyed, but ultimately, if the students attention is not held, everything
is lost.

In today's world, it has become extremely difficult to even keep focus, with
the myriad of distractions abound.

I guess in the future, every city will have tens or even hundreds of virtual
training centers, which are classes but taught online, by professors in far
away universities. Students will gather here for the classroom experience,
keep focus and still get quality education.

Perhaps a new idea of "Infrastructure as a service"

I wish that were true, and I am already seeing signs of that happening in
India. Think of how much savings and ease it will bring to a students life, if
they can have the convenience of going to college a few streets away combined
with the advantage of learning from the greatest minds of humanity.

~~~
save_ferris
I think this stems from a general disinterest of the focus issue pertaining to
technology at large. I work from home and have the exact same problem staying
focused on work.

Phone operating systems still treat features like “zen mode” as second-class
citizens while not providing enough granular access to third party apps to
implement features that encourage putting down the phone successfully. There
are still too many ways to work around these kinds of features and apps like
Freedom for iOS do an OK but not great job at allowing you to restrict access
to apps and sites on a schedule.

~~~
kumarvvr
There are a lot of apps that provide the zen mode.

However all of them are only as effective as the person's will to use them.

In my view, Extreme cases of Phone / Internet addiction can only be solved by
physically removing the user from the device. Like you do for drugs and
alcohol.

I am thoroughly convinced any other method will not be useful. Of course, I
base these thoughts solely on my experience and I have been trying to do that
since last one year. I have tried many apps, lots of self control and forcing
myself to be away from my phone physically, only to be under it's spell in a
few days. The most I held out was 2 days.

While being physically away from the phone / device is not always practical, I
have found that timers for apps are slightly more effective, as they
repeatedly warn and close the app.

I found zen modes to be not really effective, as they shut off everything and
ultimately you end up removing them for one reason or the other.

~~~
save_ferris
> I found zen modes to be not really effective, as they shut off everything
> and ultimately you end up removing them for one reason or the other.

I agree, which is why I argue that it should be an OS concern, not an
application concern. Screen time in iOS provides some of this functionality,
but it’s still not powerful enough to restrict access to certain sites, and
there are ways to get around the parental control modes.

The problem is that a phone is necessary in many jobs. I tried switching to a
“dumb” phone a few years ago and had to revert because I needed app-based 2FA
for work.

I would pay good money for a solid iOS screen time app that allows me to set
profiles for work time, free time, personal focus time, etc. that only
provides access to apps I truly need in a given moment and cannot be worked
around. That would be such a game changer

~~~
graeme
> I would pay good money for a solid iOS screen time app that allows me to set
> profiles for work time, free time, personal focus time, etc. that only
> provides access to apps I truly need in a given moment and cannot be worked
> around. That would be such a game changer

Does having someone else control the password work? I’ve also been wanting to
find a solution for this on ios devices. Screen time is weak when you have the
password.

The downtime mode in safari also trains you to use it, as you literally can’t
whitelist a website from screentime, so you have to bypass.

------
mumblemumble
_Online courses lack class discussions that are key to making courses
engaging._

This sounds absolutely nothing like how things worked in the online degree I
received.

I don't know what is typical elsewhere. I will say, from watching my son's
Zoom-based classroom sessions, that Zoom seems to be almost specifically
designed to yield a poor classroom experience. For reasons that I believe
would also apply to Skype, Google Hangouts, WebEx, GoToMeeting, etc. I am glad
that my school used a meeting platform that was intended for educational use.

~~~
soylentcola
I'm not a Cisco employee nor am I married to WebEx in every way, but I do a
mix of IT support and media production at a university and WebEx has been very
useful for us so far.

From what I've experienced, Zoom is like a basic WebEx "Meeting" where you
join a conference and it's an online approximation of a conference room. WebEx
has a subsection called WebEx "Events" with a few minor tweaks that make it
more useful for classes or seminars.

Mainly it's just about how they set up "roles". In a Meeting, you're all
mostly the same (aside from the host). In an Event, you schedule the thing,
add a list of people who will be "panelists", and then they get a special
password that allows them to log in with their WebEx account and join with
elevated privileges.

The "host" role is still the "admin" and can change settings and assign roles.
The "panelists" can turn on their own mics and cameras as they choose, and
they can be given screen-share rights.

Everyone else gets a different link and joins as "attendees". Attendees can't
turn on their own mics or cameras. They can post in the chat box and they can
raise their hand to be given mic rights. It effectively prevents the issues of
"bombing" online meetings with disruptive behavior and allows the presenters
to do the teaching.

~~~
MagnumOpus
> Zoom is like a basic WebEx "Meeting"

Zoom has the same features as the Webex Events in their zoom "Webinar", with
separate logins for admins ("hosts") and panelists, q&a chat box etc.

Of course it's not free like Zoom meetings, but costs $300 or more - that's
where they make their money...
[https://zoom.us/buy?plan=pro&from=webinar](https://zoom.us/buy?plan=pro&from=webinar)

~~~
soylentcola
Cool, thanks for the info. We don't do as much with Zoom since our WebEx
license covers Events and hosting recorded videos (among other things) but
it's still good to know.

I've only used Zoom in the basic/meetings sense. Seems like a rough parity
between the two (which makes sense given their origin, I'd imagine).

------
Dwolb
What’s missing from all these online courses is a sense of community. The
forums are _ok_ but they’re not very vibrant.

For an example of a vibrant community, I’d look toward what video games, such
as Rocket League, have created.

Players have a specific ranking based on competition stats. They level up when
they when a sufficient number of games within their ranking. Progression
through the game doesn’t have to be a solo endeavor because players can look
to the community for how to improve.

The community not on my celebrates wins and gives advice on losses, they offer
free coaching that can result in paid tutoring [1].

Not only that, but on average the community members are positive and light-
hearted.

I think other skill-based activities could learn a lot from how and why these
communities function and incorporate those aspects into their platforms to
help students succeed.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeague/comments/hv2vus/coachi...](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeague/comments/hv2vus/coaching_tuesday_20200721/)

~~~
read_if_gay_
No doubt that the community around courses could be improved, but I think it's
also a matter of enthusiasm. People are probably a lot more enthusiastic about
Rocket League than about some online degree. (Whether that's how it should be
is a different issue...) Anyway, that naturally leads to higher participation
in communities etc. So I don't know if online course makers even have that
much influence over community building in the first place.

~~~
Dwolb
For sure but then the question I would have is can we take cues from
enthusiasm around Rocket League and bring those into the community?

The real time ranking system I think is the root of a lot of this. It allows
people to know where they stand and they can look to the community on how to
improve their game.

~~~
cylentwolf
I think a real time ranking system for students at a university that is
visible by all is just going to be targeted for greedy or ambitious people
looking to convert it into jobs or money. If I am in the top 10 percent of the
rankings in Rocket League sure I can make a few grand streaming, but if I am
in the top 10 percent of rankings at a school I can get a better job than the
rest. What are the bottom 90 percent's motivation for helping people improve
at that point?

~~~
Dwolb
> What are the bottom 90 percent's motivation for helping people improve at
> that point?

I think that's a great point but one that the Rocket League community somehow
solves.

~~~
CrazyStat
With very few exceptions, everyone who plays Rocket League is playing it
because they find it intrinsically rewarding. When I taught intro stats I'd
guess less than 2% of my students were studying stats because they found it
intrinsically rewarding. Even when you get into upper level classes, even
among graduate students, the percentage who are taking a class for the
intrinsic reward rarely approaches 100%.

Trying to make education more like Rocket League, ignoring the wildly
divergent motivations of the people involved, is a fool's errand.

~~~
Dwolb
But where does intrinsic motivation come from?

What are the objective differences between getting better at Rocket League and
getting better at stats?

Agreed if we don't understand or create a basic framework, trying to put
lipstick on a pig and making stats look like Rocket League is dumb.

------
motohagiography
Depends on what you think of the value of school is. Given the distribution of
outcomes and skills, the effect of a degree for the vast majority in the long
tail of graduates is just tribal affiliation with the people who achieve in
the upper percentiles. For most people, simply paying for the credential
without attending classes would deliver most of the value. Traditionally, this
was known as "purchasing a commission,"
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchase_of_commissions_in_the...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchase_of_commissions_in_the_British_Army)),
and today we do the same thing with student debt.

Online classes may be a forcing function for the discussion of how to price
education, but the question itself has been the elephant in the room for
decades.

~~~
harias
Called signalling in economics:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_\(economics\))

~~~
motohagiography
I'd argue signalling is the effect, where the tribal initiation is the
mechanism and purchasing a commission is the example precedent, but we're
certainly in the same realm of ideas.

------
auiya
I did an online MS at Georgia Tech. I paid full price tuition for the program.
Literally 3 years after I graduated, they announced a slash in price by 80
(EIGHTY!) percent. The program was excellent, and if not for my company
offering to pay for it I wouldn't have considered it. I can absolutely
recommend it now that it's so much cheaper, but it was also designed to be a
remote program from the start.

~~~
M5x7wI3CmbEem10
OMSA/OMSCS worth it? I don’t want a résumé item that may be considered watered
down in the future.

Plus, with more self-study, can’t you can get into most tech companies because
they tend to be more open?

~~~
eugenekolo
Depending on your field a masters degree in anything is seen equivalent to
every other masters degree. And on the other side of the spectrum, they're not
considered useful by many employers/jobs.

~~~
j0hnml
While the mere presence of MS on a resume may not mean much to employers, I
almost think it’s more important to weigh its usefulness against your current
skill set. For instance, I work in tech but majored in something other than
CS, and so I sometimes feel “weak” when I need to write more formal code. I’m
going back to get my masters in CS so I can learn some of the foundational
aspects that I unfortunately missed out on. I’m not as much concerned with
fluffing my resume as I am filling the CS gaps I currently have.

Now if I did major in CS, I’m not sure I would still pursue a masters. But I
didn’t, so there’s certainly value there for me.

~~~
2snakes
This has been brought up before on HN:
[https://teachyourselfcs.com](https://teachyourselfcs.com) You don't get
initiated by the teachers, you get initiated by doing the practice problems so
you can develop schema for what strategy works.

~~~
j0hnml
That looks fantastic, thank you passing this along.

------
mymythisisthis
What's missing from this discussion is a history of Universities. In the 19th
century, as a student, you paid to be tutored by a professor to pass a
standardized exam. Professors were paid by for tutoring. Profs were expected
to teach classes, but were not paid for it. It was a means of recruiting
students to tutor. Classes were also small, more like seminars.

------
jb775
The only thing that can really explain this is an elaborate form of price
fixing between universities. If one university announced they were slashing
"online-only" tuition costs, others would probably be forced to follow suit.
It would be interesting to see a single reputable university drop tuition
prices for "online-only", and offer automatic-transfer admittance to students
already accepted into a similarly reputable school (e.g. if you go to Ohio
State, you could quickly transfer to Penn State). That might trigger a race to
the bottom, and reset tuition rates to what they rightfully should be.

The reduced revenue could be made up by cutting the unnecessary ivory-tower
jobs, reducing the inflated exec compensation, and reducing the unnecessary
$50M+ on-campus construction projects.

~~~
ntsplnkv2
There's no reason for any university to do this unless they were for-profit
(desperate for profits, respected) or failing (not respected).

------
teslademigod1
I'd imagine the tuition should drop by about 30-50%, seeing as college costs
are going to be dropping. I'm pretty sure _in a skeptical sense_ they'll be
trying to pay associate professors less for the same reason.

and charging students more.

~~~
travisoneill1
Tuition should drop by 50% anyway. The same schools were able to deliver the
same services at that price 30 years ago.
[https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/29/how-much-college-tuition-
has...](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/29/how-much-college-tuition-has-
increased-from-1988-to-2018.html)

~~~
JadeNB
Tuition costs are ridiculously inflated, and I'd love to see them come down,
but "the same thing used to be cheaper" is an argument that doesn't work in
any other field. I'd rather see a discussion of the _inflation-adjusted_ rate
of increase, or perhaps some other appropriately adjusted metric; tuition
numbers would _still_ look terrible, so there's no need to weaken one's
argument this way.

~~~
travisoneill1
That is inflation adjusted. Note "with all figures adjusted to reflect 2017
dollars"

~~~
JadeNB
Yes, you're quite right. I don't know how I missed that. Thanks!

------
non-entity
I started looking at going back to school around a year ago and online is
basically the only way that will ever happen realistically.

While most programs do charge a bit less for tuition, the amount of money
they're charging for recorded lectures and a credential is almost comical. On
top of that many programs, including some of the better looking ones (i.e.
from flagship state schools) still differentiate between in and out of state
tuition. There were a few programs that were cheaper, but you could tell there
was a reason for that.

So yeah, no way in hell I'm paying for what they're asking considering what
I'd get.

~~~
Uberphallus
I was considering MSc EE at Boulder, but the 20k price is way off the mark,
especially being used to European prices.

~~~
non-entity
Oh I saw that and it looked interesting, but an online EE degree sounds fishy
regardless. Particularly at the graduate level.

------
abvdasker
I agree. For some degrees it's less of an issue but for areas of study like
chemistry, biology, physics and many others, access to the college's physical
resources like laboratories is part of what you're paying for. I don't know
how you solve this problem with the current constraints imposed by COVID-19,
but you can't expect these students to pay full-price for an inferior
education.

~~~
HarryHirsch
You won't find anyone willing to teach several sections a day in a teaching
laboratory with 24 students, the risk of infection is (correctly) perceived as
too high. The market has adapted, there are kits to do experiments at home.

Research labs are much less densely packed, and in-person interaction is less.
In less affected states lab-based research is starting again.

~~~
thomasfortes
> there are kits to do experiments at home.

For high school level, sure.

But I can't see a sane way to let students handle acids like I did in
chemistry labs during college, and physics labs have equipment that is too
complex/expensive/dangerous to send to the students.

~~~
swiley
You can buy a lot of those chemicals in Walmart and Lows in the US (ex:
Walmart usually has fairly pure concentrated sulfuric acid. Lows has most
common organic solvents.) The lab equipment is also pretty easy to buy on
amazon (I’ve bought some trying to teach myself, although I’d recommend
against buying anything from China, It always seems to disappear somewhere
around LA.)

There’s an entire community of autodidacts that do this sort of thing at home
as a hobby. They have lots of advice on PPE, materials handling, storage,
where to find papers and books etc. Some of them even record experiments
instead of just writing them down so everyone can watch.

~~~
ntsplnkv2
This is a lawsuit waiting to happen and not everyone has the space or want to
do this. Completely and utterly unrealistic.

~~~
swiley
Oh absolutely, but it’s not impossible or even that difficult to set up.

------
Bx6667
Offline classes aren’t worth the cost of full tuition...

~~~
entha_saava
Classes are not worth the cost of full tuition.

~~~
barnabee
This.

The value I got out of university was mostly not tuition, but I think overall,
(very pre-pandemic) the whole package _was_ worth it. I've learnt vastly more
by reading, engaging with people, and doing both before and after university
though, for much less cost.

I've also never been on a paid training or course that was worth the cost and
didn't involve something above and beyond the tuition (networking, project
based, access to facilities/tools/data, etc.). The only times this obviously
isn't true are when you're gaining some required or coveted industry
certification, and then that's only because of the value attached to it, not
the value of the learning itself vs other ways to gain the same
skills/knowledge.

The lesson for me has been that for any course or school there's got to be an
expected benefit way beyond the perceived value of the tuition, and that most
of the time this doesn't exist.

I think paid training in companies is likely as popular as it is mostly
because it feels a bit like a vacation and most companies don't allow, or
don't make it socially acceptable, for people to take sufficient time off for
their own long term wellbeing.

~~~
rightbyte
Ye well the major upside with a degree for me was forcing me to learn stuff I
would never have bothered with. I mean, at the time when I started in uni I
had no clue where to even begin. Nowadays I would prefer reading a book rather
than taking classes, but I think that is because I went to uni and learned to
learn.

I feel it is the same with books on programming. They are worth reading first
when you already know how to program.

------
HarryHirsch
Online teaching works particularly well for the tutorial model, where you have
a small number (<5) of students plus the instructor engaged in discussion. It
fails completely for large classes. That's not dissimilar to the situation
before the plague.

~~~
fullshark
Wow I'd argue the opposite. Large classes / lectures I didn't even interact
with the professor in person, might as well just get that info online. Smaller
classes I found in person discussions much more valuable.

~~~
HarryHirsch
In the large classes you still need to have tutorials, this time led by the
TAs. On-line TA herding is difficult, I don't envy anyone who is doing this
right now. There's also the hallway track, students organizing themselves into
study groups and interest groups. Doing that on-line is quite impossible, how
do you have random encounters after class?

------
stblack
Schools still have a very large proportion of their fixed costs to cover.
Schools and their lecturers need to invest in perfecting onlive delivery.

Therefore it's not particularly realistic to expect schools to chop their top-
line so soon.

This is clearly a transitory and uncertain period. With time, possibly less
time than schools hope, they will be forced to adjust prices downward.

~~~
josephorjoe
For profit institutions do not get sympathy for their fixed costs.

~~~
kube-system
Most large for-profit schools are primarily online, and have long been. Huge
in-person campuses are primarily public universities.

------
m23khan
As much as I dislike making students paying high tuition fees, as a Canadian,
the alternative is worse I feel.

What would end up happening should tuition fees be reduced overnight:

\- Universities / Community Colleges would experience a fiscal deficit (or
substantial cut to their income). Here in Canada, that means taxpayers' will
be on hook.

\- Should Educational institutions cut salaries of their staff - they would
risk losing their top faculty and support staff.

Just like people rush to support local businesses and local economy, they
should also support their local education institutions. After all, they employ
a large number of people and have a huge hand in inspiring next generation of
workers and provide lots of social programs for local community.

On another note, I often see people discussing merits of University degree /
Community College diploma and often point out that Computer Science degree is
not worth it. I beg to differ - the Modern World owes quiet a lot to army of
University / Community college graduates who have made quantum leap in
civilization's advancement possible.

Just over 40 years ago, overwhelming majority of workers didn't have a post-
secondary education. But since then, around the World post-secondary education
has experienced a boom and we that all corners of the World has experienced
substantial gains in their economic output which in turn has led to better
health conditions and a better living standard.

------
duxup
I sometimes worry that a lot of the online class feedback that while not
wrong, is based on a bunch of self selecting folks who are good at / motivated
to / prefer taking online classes.

If somehow we magically switched to online classes and everyone was good at
making them ... I worry we'd loose a lot of people / the education quality
could drop and we wouldn't know.

Granted that also implies that folks who aren't good at in person classes may
have been lost for decades already.

~~~
wutbrodo
> Granted that also implies that folks who aren't good at in person classes
> may have been lost for decades already.

For what it's worth, I probably went to about 10% of my classes in college and
I got a great education (CS+math) from a combination of the course materials,
exams, and working with other students.

------
MattGaiser
I think it depends on what you think an academic degree gets you.

If you are looking for education, it may be worth it.

If you are looking for the signal to employers, it may be worth it as long as
they don’t water down the reputation by admitting more students and employers
don’t devalue it for being online.

If you are looking for connections, networking, and resume building
opportunities, then it is definitely not worth it.

My problem is that the benefits I got from university were nearly all in the
two latter areas.

------
troughway
The linked article is the real interesting bit:
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mandatory-online-
cour...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mandatory-online-courses-
ontario-high-school-students-terrible-idea-e-learning-1.5072018)

Note that it’s talking about high schools.

~~~
JadeNB
It doesn't seem completely apposite to me; it was written in 2019, so thinking
of online courses in a situation when physical courses are _possible_ —which
is, in many places, not our current situation; a significant portion of my
university's classes are going online, but I don't know any faculty who would
be doing it if not out of concern for their and their students' safety–and it
seems to be based on a lot of opinions, not so much on studies or evidence-
based conclusions.

------
f6v
And here I am in Belgium, paying 2000 a year for a Masters degree.

~~~
cpursley
Also, half your paycheck goes to the government and European tech salaries are
nearly half that of the US. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

~~~
kmonsen
I mean I lived in both ca and ny and the tax rate is pretty close to European
ones. When I lived in Switzerland just the federal rate was higher than my
Swiss tax rate.

The big difference in total compensation after tax between Western Europe and
USA is in the compensation part for people that are considered highly skilled.
For example for me I get at least 2x here in CA compared to what I would get
in Norway and Switzerland. In the UK and Germany the difference is even
larger.

For people that are not highly skilled it is the other way round, they would
earn significantly more in Europe. Another difference there is that life in
Europe is much nicer for the average middle class, but personally I think it’s
nicer in the US for upper middle class, the top 10%.

~~~
barry-cotter
> Another difference there is that life in Europe is much nicer for the
> average middle class, but personally I think it’s nicer in the US for upper
> middle class, the top 10%.

This is a gross underestimate. One can quibble about whether the top 40% or
80% of the US is richer/consumes more than in Europe but the idea it’s only
true for the top 10% is delusional. Germany has a lower GDP per capita than
every state bar Mississippi. The US has a higher average _household_ income
than everywhere but Hong and much larger households. The US is just richer
than any remotely comparable country. The countries that look similar on GDP
per capita, like Norway, consume a great deal less.

~~~
Der_Einzige
The gini coefficient of Germany means that the average citizen of Germany has
likely more money and a higher standard of living than the average American.
Germany has far fewer ultra-rich and ultra-poor people.

Gdp per capital is misleading without talking about measures of income
inequality

~~~
kmonsen
Yeah this is the point, life in for example Germany has a very acceptable life
quality for less money.

------
jb775
Are there any schools that are opening their online material to the public?
What a great opportunity to spread knowledge. With all this "defunding" talk,
it's probably a good time to reassess how much taxpayer money goes to
universities in relation to how much they give back to taxpayers.

------
nmstoker
Good that the world has learnt from the music industry migrating from CDs to
online or they'd be charging _more_ "because it's more convenient"

------
7thaccount
It's a shame. I'd like to work on an online masters in engineering to
supplement my bachelor's. The cost for 4 years of an online program that
actually has relevant classes of interest is like $50k even with my company
paying over $5k a year. That's rediculous. They try to sell it to me based off
of the potential earnings it could lead to, but I'm already well established
in my industry (capped out on the technical track), so the degree is 100%
worthless from a career point of view. I really just want to learn new things.
I'd gladly pay some money, but it is currently priced 4x higher than I can
ever justify paying. So instead, I buy the textbooks and read in my spare
time.

~~~
faet
Some schools offer non-degrees and/or the ability to audit a class. I can
apply to be a non-degree student at the local college. Then audit a class for
free (no credit/grades). The scope of auditing depends on the professor, I've
had some that will grade coursework for non-degree students, others just let
them into the lectures. Total cost would be like $25 + books.

------
mellosouls
The title could be misread as indicating online tuition is not worth the cost
generally, which is a different matter.

The article is actually making the fair point that students paying for IRL
classes are being ill-served by online replacements with no discount.

It mis-steps though in generalising to making claims more generally about
online tuition; a physical university (say) panicked by lockdown into rush-
providing online replacements for normal service is hardly likely to be able
to match the quality of service of (decent) institutions that _specialise_ in
online learning.

------
xwowsersx
Offline classes aren't worth the cost of full tuition either.

------
xigency
1) College itself is not worth the cost of full tuition. College tuition costs
have increased above the inflation rate for decades to become enormous.

2) Online education can be equal to in-person education and is worth the same
cost as in-person education. The overall college experience is subjective, but
you can learn everything you need to from reading a textbook and completing
assignments and taking tests, all of which are the same in an online setting.

------
sakex
I'm doing a research on the way students learn programming in online classes.
We tried making the student interact with each others by using Zoom's
"breakout rooms" feature with mixed results.

What's interesting is that while students attended to online classes way less,
they understood the class content way more, because they felt less pressure
and could work at their on speed.

------
trilinearnz
I am taking an online MBA course with my local university and there are many
benefits to an online format. First, the lectures are recorded and can be
rewound for future reference. This is invaluable in the tougher papers.
Second, we utilise the chat function in Zoom which allows the whole class to
participate in a "full duplex" fashion without one person monopolising the
airwaves with a single conversation (I should mention that this technique is
only used occasionally when broad input is required).

If the lecturer is facilitating properly (ensuring students are engaged and
paying attention, calling upon quieter members), then the class can be as
successful as an in-person one.

The only negatives I've seen are: easier to be distracted (no one can really
tell you're checking Reddit), the online setting with it's mute/unmute
approach sets a higher barrier to entry for participating in discussion.

------
ta17711771
Many _in person_ classes are not worth the cost of full tuition.

------
boojack
It's mind-boggling how quick and drastic this shift is happening in terms of
the value and importance of college education.

A gap year sounds like one solution. But chances are many of these people
would have figured out something that work for them (greater impact, for less
money) that others will adopt and follow.

Much of the impact will be here to stay.

------
mnm1
What's the value of an online course? The market says $0. There are plenty of
free, online courses. What is the value of an online degree? Well that depends
who is awarding it, but that value is unrelated to the value of courses
offered. It's the value of a status symbol. Attending online courses will make
sense financially only if that status symbol is really amazing, given the
current prices of even cheap public universities.

If I was a student, I'd do anything to take a year off. Even at high status
schools, or perhaps especially at high status schools, missing out on the
socialization and experience just to get status a year or two earlier is
unlikely to pay off better.

------
mikequinlan
If this is true then online degrees are worth less than in-person degrees.

~~~
xigency
Exactly. That is the premise I disagree with.

The general sentiment here is that people have used college as an extremely
expensive social club and believe that is its greatest value. I wouldn’t think
of investing $100,000 of my current or future income in order to make friends
or learn about myself.

I hope I’m not alone in thinking that I learned difficult material that I
would not have grasped on my own and had self-improvement from meeting
academic challenges under my own responsibility. Maybe this is rare, but I
have directly applied my undergrad education to solving problems and used its
foundation for learning more.

The social aspect of college is not itemized on the tuition statement. The
cost of tuition is related to the quality of education directly provided by
the school.

------
caenorst
MOOC that have been around for years are more prepared for online classes and
cheaper than any of those universities that will make you pay for maintenance
of facilities that you cannot even use.

And don't you tell me that they cannot save on electricity and cancelled
activities.

The price of tuition is not following any offer-and-demand, they are just
using the fact that you are in the middle of your studies and you can't stop
now, hope that will make people realise the kind of mafia those university
are.

~~~
kogus
I think your second point is incorrect. I work closely with several
universities, and the current situation has increased, not reduced, the
pressure on their budget. IT infrastructure upgrades, producing training
materials, the loss of rent income from university owned housing, and many
other factors all combine to far outweigh any savings from not having to run
the hallway water fountains.

Having said that, a university telling a student they must pay full price for
less than full value is expecting the customer to essentially give a
charitable donation to a business model "because we need it".

To attempt an analogy: if a grocery store had its warehouse burn down, they
would not then be able to turn around and charge 10% more than market price on
all of their items "because they needed it". That disaster would be a cost
they'd have to absorb.

Universities are at least partially insulated from having to respond to the
market like a business would, because of the high cost and difficulty of
switching schools in the middle of an education. My sense is that if things
can return to normal within a year, then they'll recover from this. If they
can't open for in person classes for longer than that, then students will take
the leap and move away from traditional universities permanently.

------
asdefghyk
There should be slight reduction in tuition fees. For example lecture halls
need no cleaning. However the physical buildings still need to be paid for
during the pandemic.

------
lanecwagner
In-class classes aren't worth it either... Modern tech facilitates advances in
education that haven't been taken advantage of. We need to:

* Gamify the experience * Focus on mastery * Build a community online that replaces the classroom

I'm currently working on a project that aims to do the above, but admittedly
we are in the early stages:
[https://classroom.qvault.io](https://classroom.qvault.io)

------
thecleaner
I would think the same thing. This seems weird that Massive Open Online
Courses are so expensive. I would think that having so many subscribers or a
global distribution channel would enable one to drop costs significantly like
one tenth of original or something thanks to the volume. In a world where
workers need to constantly upskill themselves so as to stay relevant I am
quite surprised why online education is being priced so high.

------
mjparrott
Many college classes are lightly attended and only mildly paid attention to
already. I had a professor in college who would religiously take attendance
every morning then after mid-terms and finals he would show a scatter plot of
attendance versus test scores. There was mild correlation, but still plenty of
cases outside what you'd expect (perfect attendance + terrible scores, or
low/no attendance + high scores)

------
jiveturkey
_in person classes_ are not worth the cost of full tuition!

education isn't paid for on a value-received basis. it's cost-plus. and
shifting online due to covid doesn't reduce costs _that much_. Yes, there is
some lower cost due to facilities being empty, but i'd wager that on balance,
the expense ratio is actually higher.

yes, students are not going to get the same value from their tuition dollars.

------
throwawayway9
Online classes should be deeply discounted in most cases, and free in the
others. It's time to end this college tuition scam once and for all.

------
j_walter
Most of the time online classes cost more than in person classes. This is not
a factor of cost to give the class, but a factor of paying more for the
convenience of taking the class online. I'm currently enrolled in a post-bac
CS program that is >$500/credit hour. The on campus classes are $318/credit
hour. Not all programs are like this (OMSCS comes to mind), but many are.

------
phendrenad2
I hope that as a side-effect of this extended remote schooling, fully-online
degrees become more acceptable to hiring managers.

I'd like to finish my BSCS degree I started over a decade ago, but when you
live and work in the most expensive place in America (the Bay Area), there
aren't a lot of in-person options. Gotta pay rent.

------
Ijumfs
I just have to say, that web site has some of the most offensive features. In-
article tables of links to other stories, ads up the wazoo, a huge sort of
task bar thing that swoops down. What are they thinking? I didn't even read
the article. I don't have TIME for sites like that any more.

------
vzidex
I'm going into the final year of my computer engineering undergrad and my
tuition is $1,500 cheaper than last year - $15,800 vs. $17,300. However, that
might be due to the politicking of our province's government rather than any
generosity on the school's part.

------
nickik
Collage in general has never been about education. Collage is about getting a
stamp on your head saying that you have been to collage. Meaning that you
spend years learning a bunch of stuff and you didn't do stop shit to kicked
out.

I guess for engineering where there is significant equipment necessary this
doesn't hold.

But the majority of collage is pointless, all the knowledge you need is
available outside of collage but then nobody can verify that you actually
learned it.

This book is pretty hard hitting but it provides a lot of solid analysis about
what the problem is:

The Case against Education: Why the Education System Is a Waste of Time and
Money

~~~
augustt
Well at the very least you'll learn how college is spelled.

~~~
nickik
I'm not an native English speaker and I have dyslexia, there is a reason I
became a programmer.

------
RobertSmith
Most of the teenagers will not like to sit in front of a screen the whole day
at home. Also, online classes will not give space for any outdoor sports.

------
manishsharan
The issue is that some of the most valuable experiences and learning comes
from in-person interactions with the professor in classroom and with
classmates on campus. Purely online classes completely ignore this aspect of
learning. Granted we can't do in-person interaction in the current
environment, but surely we could give it more thought . The current online
classes focus on only delivering the lecture as opposed to encourage learning.

------
phendrenad2
Some other countries have free college, so "worth it" is very relative.

------
x87678r
I read the headline and assumed this is about free online MOOC classes. I'm
starting to think they are worth less than zero as well. So much time spent
listening. Its better to get a book and try stuff yourself.

------
spullara
In person classes are not worth the cost of full tuition.

------
aazaa
What's really gonna bake your noodle is the idea that remote workers are not
worth the cost of full salary.

------
macarthy12
Offline classes not worth the cost of tuition.

------
taylodl
I see a lot of people saying take a gap year. I'm the father of a daughter
who's starting college this fall. Here are some things needing to be
considered:

\- You've been accepted for this fall. The college is under no obligation to
delay your start until next year, especially when there's a fresh batch of
incoming students.

\- You think it's tough to enroll in classes this fall? Wait until you double
the number of students all trying to take the same classes! That should be
fun!

\- My daughter has 4 different scholarships. They're all predicated on her
starting this fall. Take it or lose it. These scholarships are paying over 50%
of all her costs. Since she's going to a State University that means I can
afford most if not all the rest leaving her with a minimal amount of debt.

\- It's her freshman year. I feel more sorry for the juniors and seniors.
_Most_ freshman year classes can be done online. The more advanced the class,
the more you should be attending in person.

\- Silver lining - incoming freshman will have to focus more on scholastics
and academics and not partying.

\- Her major, pharmaceutical drug research & development, can't be done
online. Yes, there are some classes you can do online, and most of those are
in the freshman year, but ultimately you have to have in-person instruction.
Especially for the labs.

\- Her school isn't in one of the "hot spots" and has a governor and mayor
more-or-less enforcing mask laws. The dorm housing density has been decreased
by 50% - which has left some of the students scrambling to find off-campus
housing. All the incoming freshman are guaranteed housing.

\- She got her dorm assignment yesterday and the steps the university is
taking to keep students safe. Daily temperature checks, contact tracing, mix
of in-person and virtual classes, on-campus COVID testing with 6 hour test
result turn around time, quarantine dorms, dining halls are delivery only. I
should mention this university has one of the best research hospitals in the
country and a huge medical complex serving the public.

Finally, ask yourself this: why do you think anything is going to be any
better 1 year from now? Almost every other country in the world is getting
back to normal but the United States has done very little in the past 7 months
and so far there's no indication that's changing anytime soon. There's no
reason to believe things are going to substantially improve by this time next
year unless we start taking the steps to make that so. Even a vaccine may not
help as the early estimates for the cost of a vaccine is $1,000 per dose.
Health insurers aren't going to want to pay that kind of money for everybody.
Will the U.S. government? We blew through $7 trillion this year with very
little to show for it so who knows?

------
known
No vaccine = No school

------
s4n1ty
This may be the catalyst for a long-overdue reckoning in higher education in
the US - it's insane that people are entering the workforce at 23 with a
lifetime of unforgivable debt for, in many cases, worthless degrees.

------
paulie_a
In person classes are with the price of full tuition eirher

