
Why It's So Hard to Get From Brooklyn to Queens - merraksh
http://m.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2013/05/very-brief-history-why-its-so-hard-get-brooklyn-queens/5738
======
mbubb
Heh - I used to live in Greenpoint and would reverse commute up to Queens
Plaza to avoid the "G to the L to the BDFQ" into midtown...

On the contrary, Hoboken - where I now live - has a wealth of options to
commute into both midtown and downtown NYC. Within a few blocks of my
apartment: a subway trip of less than 20 mins to either Wall Street or 32nd
(Midtown); ferry (a very pleasant 40 min trip to my office in the 40s); bus
about 30 mins to midtown depending upon traffic. I love the ferry - it is the
least efficient and most expensive option. I take it about 30% of the time to
enjoy the river in the morning or evening.

This kind of access to NYC has made Hoboken (and downtown Jersey City) a much
more desirable location than other small cities in the area. And I have more
options than many of my colleagues in Brooklyn or Queens - and a quicker
commute than some colleagues in the Upper West side of Manhattan.

Go a few miles further into NJ and commuting becomes a mess. The first time I
googlemapped our new datacenter in the Meadowlands of NJ - I was pleasantly
surprised that it was ~5 miles from NYC office and roughly the same from my
Hoboken apartment. And ~1 mile from a transit stop.

Thought I could ride my bike but the trip is through MadMax NJ wasteland,
unmaintained roads on which semis rule and on which there are no sidewalks. I
am not brave enough. Even the wildlife is scary - a giant groundhog grumpily
rules the front gate area of the datacenter. And those 8 foot tall reeds are
everywhere - I can just imagine full of rats and albino sewer alligators of
immense size. I take a $15 cab from the nearest light rail stop.

~~~
T-hawk
Same here, I live on the Jersey City waterfront and love the ferry commute.
Hoboken and Jersey City are excellent places to live for a Manhattan job. We
get to take advantage of the market inefficiency created by the "eww Jersey"
popular image. Bonus, we dodge the NYC income tax which runs over 3% of
income.

~~~
algebr
When are we having a hacker news JC readers meet up?

~~~
Crake
I wouldn't mind a general NYC one.

------
jzwinck
Also in the category of boroughs hard to reach from Brooklyn without a car or
undue delay: Staten Island. Today, three of its four bridges prohibit
pedestrians and none have subway connections. One of those bridges (to NJ)
used to have a pedestrian and cycle way, but a few years after the Streetcar
Scandal it was removed as part of an expansion (!) orchestrated by Robert
Moses. Look him up to find out more about the bizarre history of mass transit
in mid-20th century NYC.

~~~
jrockway
The history isn't that bizarre. Robert Moses simply despised anyone that
wasn't rich, and spent his entire career trying to make the city even more
miserable than it already was for the poor. If you're rich, you don't bike to
Staten Island, plain and simple -- you drive a glorious automocar.

It's ironic because now all the rich people want to bury his highways
underground.

~~~
RickHull
> _The history isn 't that bizarre. Robert Moses simply despised anyone that
> wasn't rich, and spent his entire career trying to make the city even more
> miserable than it already was for the poor._

Robert Moses is a great example of the problems of unchecked power and hubris,
even if ostensibly well-intentioned. But he absolutely democratized Long
Island, which was an idyllic enclave of gigantic estates and private beaches
before he built the LIE, Northern and Southern State Parkways, Jones Beach,
etc.

He pissed off a lot of rich people in doing this.

------
paulgb
There's an interesting follow-up article which attempts to debunk the "Great
American Streetcar Scandal"

[http://m.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2013/06/be-careful-
ho...](http://m.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2013/06/be-careful-how-you-
refer-so-called-great-american-streetcar-scandal/5771/)

~~~
hristov
I do not buy that all. They say that streetcars were on their way out anyway
because buses were more efficient. There is a significant hole in this
reasoning because:

(a) GM is not in the business of owning street car lines; (b) GM spent
considerable money to buy out the street car lines, nevertheless.

If the street car lines were on their way out anyways why did GM spend so much
money on something very much out of their usual line business? It may not be
true that GM was the sole reason streetcars went away there may have been
other factors, but it is hard to deny that GM played a role and a very
significant role as they were the party that did the actual physical
destruction.

And, by the way, the only reason buses seemed cheaper at the time was
subsidies. Street cars had to pay for the building and upkeep of their rails,
while buses used the streets, and the city paid for upkeep of the streets. One
usually does not consider the damage buses do on the streets, but it is pretty
significant because heavy vehicles do disproportionate amount of damage to
asphalt. When all costs are added up, light rail is usually much more
efficient than buses and that is before you even consider environmental costs.

It is quite possible that as citizens started worrying over their tax bills
they would require bus companies to pay for the use of city streets.
Interstate truckers, for example, are taxed for use of the highways. In that
case, street cars would again become cheaper to operate than buses.

~~~
gpvos
I haven't read that article yet, but in Western Europe (at least the
Netherlands), streetcars (and regional trams and trains) were in decline in
the same period, although the larger cities kept them. But you may be right
that it was actually implicit subsidies that made the difference.

------
sethbannon
There is a delightful movie called Who Framed Roger Rabbit in which the
villain is attempting just this: buying trolley lines to build "highways, as
far as the eye can see".

[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096438/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096438/)

~~~
monkeyspaw
I second the recommendation for anyone who hasn't seen this movie. It was
marketed as a kids movie, but has a lot of stuff in it that adults can
appreciate.

It was also one of the first movies to combine significant CGI with real-world
interaction.

~~~
tanzam75
> _It was also one of the first movies to combine significant CGI with real-
> world interaction._

The was no CGI in _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_. It was all traditional animation,
hand-drawn on celluloid sheets.

It wouldn't be until _Terminator 2_ and _Jurassic Park_ that CGI really broke
through as a technique that could be used in conjunction with live-action.

------
evanb
There's an excellent podcast episode of 99% Invisible which discusses the
analogous thing that happened to the Red Car in Los Angeles.

[http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-70-the-
great-r...](http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-70-the-great-red-
car-conspiracy/)

~~~
mixmastamyk
This story is one of the big reasons LA (despite the weather) is not a great
place to live. It has been unwalkable with a few exceptions. Though public
transit is being slowly rebuilt from destruction, talk to most Angelenos and
they don't even know there is a subway, much less use it.

Also, there is a certain segment of the population that fights denser
development that would encourage transit improvements. I don't really
understand why such a person would live in Hollywood, for example.

~~~
tzs
> Also, there is a certain segment of the population that fights denser
> development that would encourage transit improvements. I don't really
> understand why such a person would live in Hollywood, for example.

Walkscore.com gives Hollywood a Walk Score of 97, which is described as a
"Walker's Paradise" which means that daily errands do not require a car, or it
gives it an 87, which means most daily errands do not require a car. (It gives
different scores depending on how you search for it--I think the 97 is if it
centers the map on Santa Monica Boulevard, and the 87 if it centers it farther
north).

So maybe you find people living in Hollywood who are not worried about transit
improvements because their neighborhood is fine without transit?

~~~
jessaustin
I don't think this is really a contradiction. I took GP to be complaining
about Hollywood residents who want to force everyone to drive. These creatures
do exist, and they deserve our scorn, at least partially for the hypocrisy
inherent in their preference.

I'm not familiar with Walkscore.com, but somehow I wonder if they base any of
the score on ease of commuting to work.

------
paganel
As a tramway lover that photo of stacked, decommissioned streetcars made me
cry a little on the inside. Just a couple of hours ago, as I was preparing to
enter a tramway in my (East-European) city, I saw a 4-year old pointing to the
two tramways that were waiting in the station and telling his grandma how
great that was. Streetcars (and trains) are just magical.

------
apaprocki
Did they forget about the G train?? <ducks>

~~~
betterunix
When I was a kid, that might have worked -- the G stopped at Queens Plaza
(with local service all the way to Continental Ave.), so you could take an E
or F down Queens Boulevard, make a quick transfer, and be on your way. Sadly,
the MTA seems to have it in for the G; the line now terminates at Court Sq.,
the trains are shorter than before (which was already shorter than other
lines), and some of the stations are in very poor shape.

Also worth mentioning is the J, which is mostly a Brooklyn/Queens train.

~~~
bradleyjg
The J barely goes into Queens, only at the very end does it have half a dozen
stops in Woodhaven and Jamaica. Someone below mentions the L which as far as I
know has no Queens stops, and the the M which does actually serve Middle
village directly from Brooklyn but otherwise requires a giant loop through
Manhattan.

This issue is near and dear to my heart, I live in Woodside but I have close
friends in Park Slope. By car it's a straight shot down the BQE -- 20 - 30
minutes depending on traffic. When all the subways are running, I can take the
7 to the G and it's an hour and fifteen minute trip. But both the 7 and the G
have terrible weekend schedules so if I wanted to go right now, I'd have to
take the 7 to the Q and go through all of Manhattan and it'd take more like an
hour and a half. Or I could take three buses and hope that scheduled
connections actually happen.

If the timing works out it can sometimes make sense to take commuter rail from
Woodside-Jamaica-Atlantic Terminal though that's more expensive and you have
to buy a ticket at the counter because the machines can't figure it out.

As an interim measure they should put a couple of express buses going north
south -- one could go from the 74th Jackson Heights station down the BQE to
the Lorimer stop on the L and then continue on to the Atlantic Terminal.
Another could link the Middle village terminus of the M to the M (and R, F, E)
at Queens Blvd with a second stop along the 7. The long term solution is more
lines. We should be doing that instead of spending billions on silly prestige
projects like the new Penn Station they want to build.

~~~
nine_k
BTW last time I took the rail from Jamaica to Atlantic terminal (this summer)
I bought a ticket from one of the machines without much complication. Did they
somehow break it?

~~~
bradleyjg
Jamaica to Atlantic is fine it's when you want to go from Woodside to Atlantic
via Jamaica (i.e. east to go west) that the ticket machines have a problem.

------
ams6110
Thoughts that occurred to me as I read this:

1\. Why were privately owned mass transit systems the norm in the first half
of the 20th century, and why is that now considered "impossible" today?

2\. Why is it OK for government to "monopolize mass transit", which they have
done almost everywhere, but a criminal "conspiracy" when four private entities
try to do it?

~~~
wmf
On point 2, presumably the government has no vested interest in any particular
form of mass transit and thus would choose the most efficient one, while the
private companies (in this case) are accused of using buses to prop up other
businesses (cars, tires, and oil).

~~~
nine_k
I wish I lived in the idyllic world which your sentence describes.

It always puzzles me when people presume that governments or public offices
act more virtuously, free from vested interests, agendas, prejudices, etc. I
would understand it if governments imported their staff from angels. In
reality, they have to hire the same human beings that private corporations
hire.

~~~
ceras
I think the idea is that accountability to voters helps keep things in line.

If you're in a situation where you believe a natural monopoly to be
inevitable, it's not necessarily flawed reasoning.

------
jerryhuang100
There are actually some "Chinatown-to-Chinatown" shuttles from the eighth ave
in Brooklyn to Flushing, Queens in thirty minutes or so for two-fifty.

------
aptwebapps
Funny not to mention Robert Moses in an article about this topic.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Moses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Moses)

------
compare
You really can't overstate the differences between trams and busses. Trams are
more like a moving sidewalk, a physical part of the city.

~~~
brudgers
The meaningful difference is not between rails and tires. It is between
dedicated rights-of-way and one shared with automotive traffic.

When buses get dedicated right-of-way, as in Curitiba they provide similar
service levels to _subways_.

~~~
lstamour
Actually, I'd say it really comes down to rails and tires. Streetcars can be
given the same rights-of-way as buses and would perform similarly, except: the
streetcar is a smoother ride. I can grab breakfast and eat it on a streetcar
knowing there's only one direction of motion to worry about. On a bus,
however, you can never tell which way you'll be jerked around. It really is
much less pleasant, even if it's faster without the right of way. (Due to left
turning cars)

~~~
mkopinsky
Can someone who's taken the new MTA Select Bus Service busses comment on
whether they are smoother than regular busses? I took an MTA bus today for the
first time in a long while and it was uncomfortably bumpy.

~~~
acjohnson55
I haven't taken them very often, but I have had a couple really great
experiences with the M15 1st/2nd Ave SBS. Due to cascading traffic lights,
efficient boarding, and wide spacing between stops, it's almost as nice as
taking the subway.

------
grandalf
For comparison, a taxi or Uber between Queens and Brooklyn will run $40-$50
each way.

Taking the F train through Manhattan takes over an hour.

~~~
ubernostrum
Though I've never personally experienced it, perhaps due to following the
advice, I've been repeatedly advised when trying to get around NYC to always
_get in the taxi_ before telling them my destination is in Brooklyn.

This could be wrong, but the stated reason is that drivers don't want fares to
Brooklyn (typically lower, and harder to get another fare who wants to go
Brooklyn to someplace else for the return trip), and so will refuse the fare
if told the destination before you get in the taxi (and apparently they're not
allowed to refuse you based on destination once you're inside).

~~~
apaprocki
A taxi refusing a fare at all (inside or outside) is against TLC rules and the
driver will be fined / have their license suspended if you report them.

~~~
bobbydavid
I live in Brooklyn. They can't officially refuse. But you'd be shocked how
many taxis meters stop working about 20 seconds into the journey....

~~~
acjohnson55
I also live in Brooklyn, but I've never actually had that problem.

------
billyto
How to fix it: \- Improve G train service. \- Use the Pulaski bridge. \- Take
care of the BQE infrastructure. \- Public jetpacks!

~~~
betterunix
Another possibility would be to build all the planned subway extensions in
Queens; Brooklyn already has good subway service, and a few more lines
connecting the two boroughs would not hurt:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IND_Second_System](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IND_Second_System)

While we are at it, let's actually make use of this:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockaway_Beach_Branch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockaway_Beach_Branch)

~~~
fennecfoxen
Build it? With whose money? The city's finances have been a disaster since
2008 and they've only been scraping by with a series of unsustainable tricks.
The next mayor will almost certainly be Bill de Blasio, whose top agenda item
is basically to spending a lot more money on the city's unionized labor. (His
next agenda item is to revive rent control, because the War Emergency Tenant
Protection Act apparently hasn't done enough to run the city into the ground
yet. (And yes, that war emergency is WWII.))

Have you ever wondered why we can't have nice things? :P

~~~
betterunix
The MTA is a state agency, so really you need to look at the state's budget,
not the city's. I also have little sympathy for the argument that the MTA is
too short on cash -- they have been wasting enormous amounts of tax dollars on
failed projects for decades.

Not that that should give us any hope for an expanded subway system.

~~~
saalweachter
Are the state finances in any better shape?

The tolls on the new Tappen Zee bridge are expected to be $15, and even that
might not be enough to fund it after the hole Coumo blew in the transportation
budget after deciding to pillage a general fund instead of raising tolls for
commercial vehicles last year.

~~~
betterunix
As I said, I am not saying that we should have much hope for expanding the
subway system even if the state budget was perfect. The MTA's main area of
expertise is wasting money.

In my earlier comment I mentioned the Rockaway Beach Branch. That right-of-way
would require only a bit of cleanup, some maintenance on a few bridges, and
switches to connect to the A line and hundred feet of tunnel in Rego Park, and
we would have a new subway line in Queens with access to JFK. We are talking
maybe a hundred million dollars, _assuming competent engineers and contractors
are hired_ \-- a fraction of what the MTA has been spending trying to get the
Rail Control Center online.

------
raldi
What did the trolleys provide that today's bus system does not?

~~~
jstalin
That's an important point overlooked by those who are wistful for trolleys.
Buses at least can change routes. Trolleys were from a time when few had cars
and spending lots of money on a fixed route was efficient. Now it's not.

~~~
raldi
So perhaps the actual blame lies not with the change from trolleys to buses,
but rather the change from light traffic to heavy traffic, as the automobile
industry took off.

------
will_critchlow
How long would the streetcar have taken vs the time to travel via manhattan on
the subway? (Londoner here so trying to put it in context).

------
MaggieL
The same is true in the Philadelphia metro area...getting from one suburb to
another via public transit is excruciating.

~~~
rquantz
Except Brooklyn and Queens are not the suburbs.

------
tzs
> Ever try to get from Brooklyn to Queens, two of the most populated boroughs
> of New York City? Without a car, it's nearly impossible, as most subway
> lines require one to go through Manhattan first.

Could someone explain this to those of us who have never been to New York and
whose only knowledge of its subways comes from TV and movies?

The impression I get from subway travel as depicted on TV and in movies is
that trains run frequently enough that trips requiring changing trains aren't
a big deal. So what's the problem is you have to go to Manhattan then change
trains to go to Queens?

~~~
DrJokepu
Such a journey would take a very long time, between 50 and 90 minutes
depending on the time of the day and the exact starting point / destination.

~~~
mkopinsky
For example, consider this journey:

[https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!data=!1m4!1m3!1d83509!2...](https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!data=!1m4!1m3!1d83509!2d-73.9624327!3d40.6409217!4m18!3m17!1m5!1sFlatbush+-+Ditmas+Park%2C+Brooklyn%2C+NY!2s0x89c25b400c94a227%3A0x18e2a4d3fb21f0ec!3m2!3d40.6409217!4d-73.9624327!1m0!2e3!3m8!1m3!1d83452!2d-73.9155675!3d40.6860877!3m2!1i1280!2i662!4f13.1&fid=0)

30 minutes by car, 1:18 by public transit.

------
saltyknuckles
It keeps the hipsters out of Queens and then rent stays low. Do you really
need another coffee shop for people to hog up tables using wifi all day?

~~~
acjohnson55
What else are coffee shops for?

~~~
saltyknuckles
coffee

