
First introduction to LaTeX - rawland
https://www.sharelatex.com/learn/Learn_LaTeX_in_30_minutes
======
Xcelerate
I absolutely love ShareLaTeX. It's one of the few products that is kind of
niche but does one thing and does it really well. I definitely get $8 a month
worth out of their service. Having used MacTeX and similar products,
ShareLaTeX is just a much smoother user experience. Not to mention their
documentation is great and really gets to the point of what you are often
trying to do. I've used their service on the last three research papers I've
written and have been sharing the platform with different professors I work
with.

(I sound like a shill, but check my comment history — I'm not affiliated with
them. Just a happy customer.)

~~~
andrepd
Personally I just can't get used to using a slow web app. I much prefer
working in a native editor or IDE (like TeXStudio). I still use Sharelatex in
a pinch, when I'm another machine or something, but I breathe a sigh of relief
when I'm back on a native app.

~~~
thek3nger
One of my favourite feature of Overleaf (another cloud LaTeX Editor) is that I
can use git to work on my cloud project on my local machine. It seems to me
the best of both worlds.

~~~
andrepd
I didn't know that! That does seem like a sweet feature. I'll try it out next
time I need to use these services.

------
konschubert
I strongly dislike LaTeX mostly because of its terrible error messages,
because of the mess of incompatible packages and because of its inflexibility
in layout adjustments.

I admit that I never sat down to understand the latex design principles and
learn it the hard way. So maybe I'm just uninformed.

But seriously, I just want to write some text with formulas.

The error messages are so useless, usually I'm forced to trace a bug by
commenting out sections of text. For even the most trivial features, packages
have to be included. Finding the right set of compatible packages is a science
on its own. Usually you start with somebody else's document header and try to
tweak it to your needs.

And good luck placing an image on the page where you want it.

I assume that if you spend some time understanding the language, it becomes
clearer and less of a mess.

But I feel like there is room for a declarative text editor that's a little
bit more intuitive.

~~~
starky
What you are describing sort of goes against the tenets of LaTeX. You aren't
supposed to worry about formatting, just content. You have to explicitly tell
it when you want to deviate from the template. In terms of placing figures,
you just have to write \begin{figure}[h!].

I've never really had a problem with the error messages or packages
personally.

~~~
konschubert
I think it's a legitimate wish to change the footer height in a document.

~~~
pja
\setlength{\footskip}{ _length_ } should do the job. You might have to reduce
the \textheight to make room. What are you trying to achieve?

~~~
konschubert
I'd probably try the /setlength command, but not consider that I have to
adjust the invisible /textheight. Then I would wonder why it did not work.

With HTML, at least I have the inspector to see where bounding boxes are. With
latex I'm blind.

~~~
pja

        \documentclass[a4paper]{article}
        \usepackage{layout}
        \begin{document}
        \layout{}
        \end{document}
    

Ought to sort you out. There’s also the showframe package.

------
greeneggs
Besides Googling for tricks, another way of learning LaTeX is to download the
source code for nice-looking papers that you find on the arXiv.

For example, for "Learning to learn by gradient descent by gradient descent"
arXiv:1606.04474
([https://arxiv.org/abs/1606.04474](https://arxiv.org/abs/1606.04474)), if you
click on Download->Other formats, you get the latex source code and in this
case also the Omnigraffle files for the diagrams.

------
tomcam
Just in time! I use pandoc to generate PDF files from markdown, but it's not a
straightforward process in any case but creating documents that look like
Donald Knuth dashed them off in 1978. Pandoc is super flexible but your output
goes through LaTeX templates so customizing them felt out of reach given my
limited time--until now.

~~~
javitury
Here is another one that prefers markdown with pandoc.

IMHO, it's much better to use markdown generally and insert latex only when it
is completely necessary.

A latex usage example is creating a tikz picture or for introducing \pagebreak
or \framebreak in pdfs or beamer presentations.

For the rest of the cases, markdown is much less verbose and can accomplish
the same.

------
aethos
While this is a decent guide, I find that being skillful in latex comes from
memorizing many highly specific commands. I spend most of my time googling for
things such as "How to use (a), (b), (c) for enumerating lists".

~~~
tomcam
...but this article is giving me the context I need to understand the Google
results

~~~
chairmanwow
True enough. But I agree with OP in that being "good" with LaTeX is
essentially just memorizing lots of commands. I've never written a document
without having to constantly search for specific commands.

------
rawland
To be honest, I shared the LaTeX documentation of ShareLaTeX with you because
it is plain excellent.

Right now, I'm finishing my doctoral thesis and compiling locally, because I'm
without internet for long times due to travelling. Therefore, I scraped the
docs to have a local copy.

Am glad to see the praise for ShareLaTeX here, though. Especially due to their
solutions with ridiculous error messages and their general approach. When I
encounter a cryptic problem I switch from vim+vimtex to texstudio -- which
usually helps a lot by providing an overview, syncing the logs to the
occurrence, organizing them by severity and enhancing understanding by
unfolding the log.

The only difference between ShareLaTeX and overleaf I see, is SLs over-the-
tops documentation. Kudos again and thanks.

For general interest, my current LaTeX workflow is:

    
    
      * Write in vim + vimtex.
      * Switch on continuous compiling (that's like ShareLaTeX).
      * Using synctex to preview with zathura (lightweight pdf).
        + This is really nice, you can configure vimtex to it.
        + CTRL-Click into the (zathura) pdf focuses vim to the
          corresponding position
        + <leader>lv in vim jumps to the position in the 
          pdf being open side-by-side in zathura.
      * In case of complex errors open texstudio
      * Save battery, use vimagic and be happy.

~~~
cyphar
> The only difference between ShareLaTeX and overleaf I see, is SLs over-the-
> tops documentation. Kudos again and thanks.

There is also the (awesome) fact that ShareLaTeX is free software (under the
AGPL no less).[1]

[1]:
[https://github.com/sharelatex/sharelatex](https://github.com/sharelatex/sharelatex)

~~~
rawland
Didn't know this. Thanks.

------
arooaroo
Always pleased to see more resources encouraging more LaTeX use. ShareLatex
and Overleaf are doing a great job of promoting Latex.

Fwiw my Getting to Grips with LaTeX[1] tutorial have been around for years and
are well used.

[1] [http://www.andy-roberts.net/writing/latex](http://www.andy-
roberts.net/writing/latex)

~~~
blt
I used your tutorials to learn LaTeX around 2008-2009. Thanks!!

------
anton_tarasenko
LyX[1] can be a better intro to LaTeX. It was posted on HN before. But really,
it's the most powerful WYSIWYG editor for LaTeX, and it still provides access
to the .tex source of the document. You can use the interface and learn the
language at the same time.

Besides, custom shortcuts make LyX much faster than writing TeX directly with
autocomplete.

[1] [https://www.lyx.org/](https://www.lyx.org/)

------
TheApexTheater
Honest question: I tried using LaTeX for a homework assignment. I had already
done all the work on some loose paper, but it was all over the place and
thought LaTeX-ing it would help readability. It took me about three hours and
I wasn't even halfway done (there were four questions and I had barely done
the second one)... Is taking this long normal for LaTeX? or is it something
you get better at with practice?

~~~
mturmon
I'm doubtful that using Latex for ephemeral stuff like math-heavy homework is
a good use case. It's excellent for documents like journal papers and tech
reports that you will be revising and distributing, and perhaps coming back to
months later. It's also great for collaboration. I could see it working for a
lab report.

With mathematical homework, aren't you spending significant time ensuring that
what you typed into Latex rendered correctly? (I.e., the edit-compile-look
loop?) I sometimes omit parentheses or put braces in the wrong place, which
causes the display to be in error. Introducing another step in the process
seems troublesome, and would take me out of the "zone" of problem-solving.
(I.e., handwritten copy -> Latex -> rendering vs. just handwritten copy.)

I switched from troff to Latex around 1991. The explanatory tables for the
sprinkler system and the electrical panel for my house are in Latex. So, I'm a
Latex-phile, just skeptical about this case.

~~~
brians
It makes grading easier, so you get better feedback---and more attention to
substance.

Every graduate math class I've taken has asked for typeset problem sets; some
have required it.

~~~
mturmon
Wow, I am surprised and intrigued! Last time I took a graduate math class was
1995. It was definitely pencil and paper.

------
mhh__
I found that, for someone with programming experience, the core LaTeX is quite
easy to teach. I use it for all my school projects, and ShareLaTeX just works.
I also managed to use it(Nothing Fancy) collaboratively with a friend of mine,
with only ~5min introduction (Although I was sat next to him, so not quite the
same as learning it alone).

------
rosstex
>ctrl+f "lyx" > 0 results

[https://www.lyx.org/](https://www.lyx.org/)

Gonna plug Lyx, the best tool for writing LaTeX without actually feeling like
you're writing LaTeX.

~~~
hota_mazi
Not responding, and [http://isup.me](http://isup.me) confirms it's down.

~~~
rosstex
It's back. Go check it out!

------
walrus1066
A nice intro project is writing your CV in latex, using packages like
[https://github.com/xdanaux/moderncv](https://github.com/xdanaux/moderncv)

~~~
sevensor
I don't know about that. Formatting a CV is so fiddly and LaTeX is at its best
when you can relax your grip and let it do its job. I'd recommend writing
something really simple. Take ten minutes and write up the notes from your
last meeting. They'll look amazing, and there's basically no formatting
required beyond perhaps bulleted lists. It's hard enough just to get over the
hump of having source code that's distinct from your finished document,
without jumping straight in to the least rewarding part of LaTeX, which is
trying to make things look just how you pictured them.

~~~
LVB
For my last job change I rewrote my then-outdated resume in Latex using a
modified version of the popular resume style. The reason was that I found the
usual suspects (Word, Docs) just as fiddly with what I was trying to format,
but without the clean evolution that a .tex file in a git repo provided.
Getting this just right did take time, but I did it iteratively and now have
an excellent base that is exactly how I want it, and something that looks
better than the word processor templates. Overall it was a worthwhile
investment IMHO.

~~~
Myrmornis
Thing is, one of the aims of LaTeX is to separate content from formatting. I'm
guessing in that in your resume.tex, the layout is fairly tightly bound up
with the content, but it would be great to hear I'm wrong! Like, if you want
it to have a different number of columns, or put the job title and years
together outdented in the left margin or whatever, can you do that? Or are you
kind of relying on a particular choice of style file?

~~~
LVB
The content is pretty bound up with the formatting, but it's just one file and
I don't mind. At least it's explicit, and I can tweak the layout precisely vs.
what I was able to do in Word (which I'm not that great at to be honest).

I just used the well-known Michael DeCorte resume template as a starter,
adjusting to suit.

------
mythrwy
I'd like to know LaTeX. And of course played with it a few times.

The issue is, I write something that requires a document editor like once
month (if) and it's usually a minimal number of pages. I do it so infrequently
it's always a huge pain even using Libre Office. And every time I think "it
really ought to be possible to do this with Vim" (which I suppose LaTex would
solve, and that's a big plus). It's just the learning curve/benefit ratio
isn't there yet.

~~~
ams6110
Something like Markdown, Restructured Text, etc. might be better. I'd suggest
Emacs org-mode too but not sure if anything like that is available for Vim.

------
cygned
We have built a reporting engine for PDFs on top of LaTeX; data is loaded
using SQL, pre-processed with JavaScript if neccessary and then rendered using
pdflatex.

Works great and is fast, but I wouldn't do it again (thinking about using CSS3
+ print properties for that).

~~~
flukus
How would you say this went compared to off the shelf reporting engines? It
seems like all reporting engines have major deficiencies and I've thought
about trying something like this myself.

~~~
cygned
Frankly, we were not able to find something suitable. It needed to be fast
(our largest report has like 2000 pages), needed to support advanced layouting
(images outside of usual print margins, multi-pages tables with continued
headers, ...) and we wanted to have some kind of templating language. Native
node.js would have been nice, but not required.

Maybe I was out of luck, butI couldn't find anything useful fulfilling these
requirements - if you have suggestions, I'd be interested in seeing what's
possible.

How it went, though? Due to our use cases, this LaTeX service is a complexity
beast. The templating isn't fun; LaTeX was not created to be templated itself.
We have escaping in place, but from time to time user input breaks it. We have
no way to let users create their own reports at this point. There are multiple
reasons, but LaTeX being not that beginner-friendly is definitely one of them.

But given the template is correct and the user input is sane, it's fast and
simply works.

~~~
flukus
The "least worst" I've ever used to SSRS (Microsoft), not sure if the 2000
pages will cause an issue or if the images outside the borders are possible
though. Apparently it supports other data sources but I'm not sure how well,
I've got an upcoming task at work to investigate this.

But 2000 pages? That's a data dump, not a report.

~~~
cygned
Those reports are usually printed and sent to members. Therefore, even the
2000 pages report needs to be well-formatted and layouted correctly, including
addresses, brand images and stuff.

Amount wise it really feels like a dump, yes.

------
matteocantiello
Here's why I don't think it's worth any longer spending time learning LaTeX:
When Donald Knuth came up with TeX, he had in mind the printed page. LaTeX
gave writers the opportunity to control the way their printed documents looked
like. It made writers their own typographers. But the future of documents is
content and collaboration, not typographic style. Printing will become
irrelevant, and the documents of the future will have to be interactive,
executable and device agnostic. As we move forward Authorea provides the best
of both worlds (full disclosure, I'm one of the people behind the project).
Authorea, which is a format agnostic collaborative platform, allows to write
documents in richtext (word), markdown, LaTeX (or a combination of the three).
It renders your docs to HTML, but you can export anytime to LaTeX (and PDF).
Which means if you want, you can still convert your document to LaTeX without
learning LaTeX syntax. It is version controlled (built on GIT) and allows to
include data rich plots and Jupyter notebooks. We built it with the "paper of
the future" in mind [https://www.authorea.com](https://www.authorea.com)

~~~
monsurate
You mean to say that all we've been doing so far is just pretty printing our
mundane thoughts since the invention of the written word and true value will
only be unlocked by throwing away typographic knowledge accumulated over
centuries and writing documents for the machines instead? Maybe you're right.
Perhaps typography and the print media is finally truly obsolete. But you're
not the first to make such a claim and you won't be the last. In the meantime,
there's still a valid case for learning LaTeX well enough to be able to
produce a correctly typeset document. Perhaps you should consider this
viewpoint instead of dismissing TeX as an unwanted bastard child in your
website's workflow?

~~~
chronial
> throwing away typographic knowledge accumulated over centuries

looking at that sample article, I would say yes, that's what they're saying:

[https://www.authorea.com/users/3/articles/152971-positive-
bi...](https://www.authorea.com/users/3/articles/152971-positive-biodiversity-
productivity-relationship-predominant-in-global-forests/_show_article)

------
aceperry
I tried to learn LaTex a long time ago when I was just getting started with
Linux, but gave up when I found that I could use MS Word and get what I
needed, without the steep learning curve. I'm sure LaTex is much better than
Word for some things, but I've never needed anything as specialized as LaTex.
In fact, I don't use 99% of what Word is capable of and most of the time I'm
using a simple text editor or vim or atom.

~~~
zuron7
LaTeX was never meant to be used as a word processor. It's amazing for Math
and other scientific writing, but apart from that, it's just much faster to
open up your basic Word Processor and get on to playing the keys.

~~~
CarVac
If you just want to put words on a page and print it out, sure, use a word
processor.

But if you have to generate more than one document with the same formatting,
or a very large document, LaTeX is the way to go.

I use it, interfaced with SQLite-generated CSV files, to compile 50 page
reports for work with no effort at all. This process used to take hours.

Another thing I do for work is using SQL to actually generate LaTeX documents
programmatically, using premade macros that are stored in a class file.

The power and consistent behavior is what makes it better than word
processors.

~~~
tomcam
Interesting approach. You imply that your output is not printed. It seems to
me that HTML with style sheets would be an equally good approach? Not telling
you, just curious about your workflow. Any browser can handle a 50 page
document without breaking a sweat.

~~~
CarVac
It is printed, in fact, so browser stuff wouldn't work.

~~~
thomasfedb
It could. I have a couple of apps that will render HTML to PDF server-side for
users to download.

Rendering LaTeX to PDF would be far less fuss, however, when you already have
the HTML templates it is the path of least resistance.

------
ppidugu
I feel this post could be edited to as "Learn a pinch of Latex in 30
minutes"....for some people title could be ambiguous...frankly we can't learn
anything in 30 minutes...we just get a feel of any skills or concept....the
concept of really learning is when we could put something to practical...if we
couldn't put anything to practical its not learning but just skimming through
the concepts.

~~~
tomcam
Just did the whole intro and them some. You're right--but it's accompanied by
a whole lot of other lessons that all take the same clear, humane, approach.
I'm willing to accept a little hype for such a comprehensive presentation
overall.

------
Koshkin
I wonder if Donald Knuth uses LaTeX or some other TeX macro package (e.g.
Plain TeX).

~~~
TheRealPomax
> Andrew: What set of tools do you use today for writing TAOCP? Do you use
> TeX? LaTeX? CWEB? Word processor? And what do you use for the coding?

> Donald: My general working style is to write everything first with pencil
> and paper, sitting beside a big wastebasket. Then I use Emacs to enter the
> text into my machine, using the conventions of TeX. I use tex, dvips, and gv
> to see the results, which appear on my screen almost instantaneously these
> days. I check my math with Mathematica.

[http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1193856](http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1193856)

~~~
Koshkin
So, one of the greatest minds of our time uses Plain TeX, it seems. Given that
his texts look more complex than any other mathematical texts that I have
seen, why would anyone prefer to use LaTeX instead?

~~~
Esau
Any anyone else use plain tex these days?

~~~
xelxebar
I have found spamming Google for LaTeX solutions to be really unsatisfactory
and recently decided that I'd rather just learn my tools properly. This very
very quickly led me away from LaTeX and over to plain TeX.

I have read through about 2/3 of the TeXbook so far and currently am writing
my thesis in it. So far it's been really enjoyable! That's not something I
could say about my past struggles with LaTeX.

Maybe once I have TeX down really pat, I'll peek back over into LaTeX, but for
now I really don't see a need.

Getting a handle on the typographic primitives that TeX offers makes a huge
difference. I've actually found it surprisingly easy to handcraft whatever
macros I need. Though I do also use a the amstex macros.

Admittedly, it's easy to end up with a horrid mess of macros if you're not
careful, but a bit of forethought and experience with frontend design patterns
goes a long way.

One thing I haven't figured out yet is how to deal with CJK languages nicely.

------
jimhefferon
If you benefit from TeX, LaTeX, and friends, please consider supporting them
with a membership in the TeX Users Group.

For full information see
[http://tug.org/aims_ben.html](http://tug.org/aims_ben.html) but note that if
you select to get the journal electronically then a one-year membership is
$45. (If you are a student, recent student, senior citizen, or come from a
country with a modest economy then the annual rate is $15.) It could not be
more reasonable.

------
xattt
ShareLatex and TeX in general is awesome. I use it for the Biblatex and I have
dabbled with Beamer.

Two issues that I have run into are live word counts for assignments for profs
who refuse to give page counts, and having to maintain multiple document
versions manually (one in TeX, one in Word) because my field (Nursing) is full
of non-tech savvy older profs who will look at you funny if you provide them
with something outside their comfort zone.

------
platz
For pdf deliverables regarding things like a resume, I am wondering if it is
just better to create an html document using FE web dev skills, and render it
to pdf (having done the latex resume thing recently).

i.e. for PDF's (like a resume), What are the advantages of latex over
html+css->pdf?

(This is assuming I don't care about things like table-of-contents generation
or precise chapter-aware commands)

~~~
mynewtb
Nothing I can think of except for some typographic sugar that almost no one
(except for other latex users or typography people) would notice. It really is
not worth the frustration today.

~~~
taeric
I take issue with calling it a frustration. Especially since trying to get
good page layouts with html is frustrating to me.

That said, if you need any document, be it a résumé or anything else, and you
need it tomorrow, use the tools you know. And don't feel bad about not knowing
other tools. Trying to get up to speed on anything that is worthwhile quickly
on a new too will almost certainly be frustrating. Even word processors.

------
zackmorris
Here is an editor from a couple of years ago that lets you check your LaTeX:

[http://www.codecogs.com/latex/eqneditor.php](http://www.codecogs.com/latex/eqneditor.php)

More:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9986430](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9986430)

------
EvgeniyZh
I've learned LaTeX by taking all lecture notes in LaTeX and googling all the
stuff (or just leaving comment to google it later). Math was especially hard,
but after a semester and a half I'm almost not googling and writing relatively
complicated LaTeX as fast as regular text.

------
ptaipale
I love LaTeX, but I disagree about that WYSIWYM.

It's really WYGIWYAF. What You Get Is What You Asked For.

~~~
mynewtb
WYGIWLTWBFY

What You Get Is What LaTeX Thought Was Best For You. So, images spreading to
the margins of the page, a block of whitespace on the next page, lots of weird
characters instead of your local characters and lots of more obscure stuff.

~~~
lol768
> lots of weird characters instead of your local characters

Is that really an issue with xetex, though?

------
soyiuz
LaTeX I feel is going the way of HTML as a intermediate layer language that is
not to be meant to be read/written by humans. Like others in this thread I
much prefer writing in Markdown and then using something like Pandoc to
convert to Latex.

------
oldgun
Always enjoyed services from sharelatex, they made a lot of stuff easier.

A looks like a nice tutorial.

------
DoctorOW
This didn't really answer "Why Learn Latex?". It mentioned some of the
benefits of Latex as a format but what reason do I have for not using some
sort of Latex generator?

------
amygdyl
I figure the chance of downvotes is worth it for relating the most unexpected
conversation I had socially I'm prompted by the commenter who above says they
struggled and preferred Word. I use Word as a daily driver because of Excel
embedding, and company policy, but this is about the value of pursuing LaTeX
that may open not so unique possibilities:

Posted because there are lots more places where I think being up to speed with
TeX / LaTeX can get you hired by someone interesting / or in lucrative if dull
job, not necessarily as a programmer:

Through a friend, I met and chatted with, eventually for hours, the a
gentleman whose last occupation turned out to be the publisher for authorized
education books... In Iraq... Under Saddam.. Why we got so deep talking at my
friend's dinner party? We were arguing the real time composability of TeX. I
don't know the chances of such a conversation with any septuagenarian
gentleman, to start with, but I hope my friend's promise to invite me next
chance we can meet will arise. I encountered a delightful gentleman programmer
by nature as opposed to training; his formal education was history and
languages, self taught programmer, who also mentioned MCL. I last used LaTeX
in earnest in the late 90s - his knowledge, I should have asked if he was
actively using, seemed current... our mutual friend a publisher, this makes me
think I ought inquire if a book is forthcoming. Regardless, I think it's
fascinating just how entrenched TeX and LaTex are in the minds of users. And
publishers I've met who use TeX are devotees. I've been told by a couple now,
that they expect associates to pick it up on the job. So potentially this
might be a angle for a programmer to side move into a different field.
Associates hired or promoted to work with publishers are usually tasked with
longer term research into subjects and trends, it looked to be rewarding work.
And in politics, economics, tech obviously, a programmers skills might be
enough for the transition, especially if the publisher felt lightweight on in
house abilities.

I used to encounter commercial applications wrapping TeX frequently, in the
90s. One, by a British software house since subsumed in the XML everything,
enterprise data / private equity rollup fad, I forget the names it went
through, was essentially selling TeX, plus advert placement layout engine,
used by FAZ, Suddeutsche Zeitung, lots of Italian dailies, the EC, for a sweet
50,000 a seat.

Mass market Print publishers need tools to manage costs that drill down to the
weight of ink used on the paper. It's a reason the InDesign ecosystem is
stable- third party integrations that are expensive to write for a select
audience. But smaller houses have wider tolerances, may "leave that to the
printer" (hope they can get good bids without the pre press estimate), so the
variety of pre press tools widens to include just LaTex and a impostor for
separations/plates.

Knuth's Digital Typography, is a excellent read, and a chapter in that,
showing by how much, and how easily, major press titles can be made more
readable, save space, and more, became a brilliant sales tool for my
consulting. If you know TeX / LaTex, and need a gig, Digital Typography, plus
the addresses of nearby smaller publishers, might be a great way to catch good
work. I found so, anyhow.

~~~
jen_h
The British software house wasn't Advent 3B2, was it?

Being up to speed with LaTeX can get you hired, but you've always gotta be
prepared for the excited, "You know LaTeX! Let's do all of our documentation
in it!" and the gentle conversation that ensues about how expensive free
software can get once you involve people and processes...not that LaTeX isn't
great; I use it myself for print-ready PDFs, but for corporate manuals and
stuff and getting tech writers off the street who can hit the ground running
with it, it's just not the right solution for most organizations.

