
Ask YC: Mid-sized, livable, hacker-friendly towns? - davidw
My wife and I are pretty sure that we're not going to stay here in Innsbruck after this summer (not positive yet, but it's likely).<p>So... we're starting to think about "where?!".  We have a child on the way, and I've "done my time" in the bay area.  I'd rather have a smaller chance at making a successful startup than deal with that rat-race again.<p>Our preference is for somewhere livable, with a decent climate, "mid-sized" (say 100K-500K), with a university, and some topography (dead flat places need not apply:-).<p>How's Boulder, Colorado?  Santa Fe, NM? Boulder's sort of up there on my list.  I like Southern Oregon a lot too (Ashland), but it doesn't offer much in the way of job opportunities.  My wife is in biotech, so someplace that offers something for her is high priority too (once again, the bay area would be good, but... not with a kid, and having to drive <i>everywhere</i>).<p>Anyone got a favorite mid-sized town that might not easily pop up on the radar, that more or less fits the bill?<p>Incidentally, this doesn't have to be in the US.  We would be in Padova, Italy if everything else were equal, but the political and economic situation in Italy is not pretty right now.   A romance language would probably be easier to deal with (indeed, I'm looking at an opportunity in Portugal).<p>Thanks guys,
Dave
======
larrykubin
I live in Austin, TX and find its size to be manageable, although it is
growing fast. Is that too large for you? It has the University of Texas, its
in the 'Hill Country', and has a lot of smart and creative folks. I don't have
a car and ride nothing but the Capital Metro bus. The average age is pretty
young here, so there are a lot of parties and such, which is a plus for some
but minus for others. You will like it if you are into: lots of coffee shops
with wireless access, live music (South By Southwest is just around the
corner, and there are concerts all the time), lots of bars, the Texas
Longhorns, attractive people, and some yuppie/hippie types. Lots of people
hang out at Zilker Park (where the Austin City Limits Music Festival is) and
run around Town Lake.

~~~
pius
Thanks for the info, I'm city shopping right now and I'm planning to check out
Austin at SXSW. Any Austin tips for me? I try to avoid having a car at all
costs, so it's good to know you've found that feasible.

~~~
larrykubin
This probably is moving away from what davidw was asking, but here's my quick
guide to Austin.

The 6th street advice depends on who you are. If you are looking for live
music, definitely 6th St. and the clubs on Red River. If you want cheaper
drinks (like $1 Rum and Cokes of low quality), want to party with more of
college-age crowd, are single and looking for attractive women, you will be
very happy there. Very little work gets done on 6th St (unless you work in one
of the bank buildings). Once the 6th st. crowd graduates, they hang out in the
Warehouse District, which is around 4th and Colorado/Lavaca. This is where you
go if you want more like a $4-5 drink or if you enjoy sipping Lattes. Less
live music stuff. More cafes. I work out of a couple coffee shops over there,
and also work out of a neighborhood called Hyde Park (which is not downtown).
Austin is growing fast. There are many condos being built in the downtown
area, particularly in the area that is now being called the "2nd Street
District". Hyde Park is a cool little neighborhood if you don't want to hang
out downtown. Houses are older, smaller, and more expensive there. When I say
expensive, I mean Texas expensive, not California expensive.

I'll be at SXSW if anyone wants to meet up. I'll be attending the SXSW
interactive and as many of the live music shows that I can fit in. The full
list of over 1000 bands was released today and can be viewed at
<http://2008.sxsw.com/music/festival/alphalist/>. Yes, all of them in one
week.

For some funky shops and a cool place to visit in the day it'd be worth
stopping by the South Congress area.

For live music places, I recommend Stubb's, Emo's, and The Parish Room (for
more Indie Rock stuff), Elephant Room (for Jazz), Mohawk, and Antone's.

For a cool neighborhood pub with a jillion beers that you probably wouldn't
run into normally, go to <http://www.draughthouse.com/>. Other places with a
large beer selection where you can hear yourself talk are The Ginger Man and
Opal Divine's.

Some magazine voted Alamo Drafthouse the best movie theater in the country.
It's one of those theaters where you order a beer and food while you watch the
movie, so I enjoy it more for a humorous movie. Some other magazine voted Book
People the best bookstore in the country.

For good coffee places to use free wifi, go to Austin Java (Downtown), Halcyon
(Downtown), Epoch (Hyde Park), Quack's (Hyde Park), Flightpath (Hyde Park),
The Hideout (Downtown), Metro (by UT Campus), JP's Java (near UT campus),
Little City (Downtown), or Spiderhouse (near UT campus).

Barton Springs and Zilker Park is where a lot of people go for outdoors stuff
like running, walking dogs, frisbee golf, and swimming.

Shop at HEB for a big cheap grocery store. Go to Whole Foods or Central Market
if you want to stock up on organic expensive stuff.

If you are rich and want to buy some designer sunglasses, go to the Domain or
the 2nd St. District. If you are an indie/emo kid, go to SpiderHouse, Beauty
Bar, or....Emo's. If you are a metalhead or goth type, there are some places
on Red River for you.

For a really big delicious burger or some tasty wings, visit Casino El Camino
on 6th. If you want some cheap gigantic breakfast tacos, go to Juan in a
Million. For an open-faced burger with a mound of cheese fries piled on top,
go to Hyde Park Grill. For a wine bar, go to Vino Vino.

A car is not very important if you know the Capital Metro bus routes and stay
central, which is where most of the interesting stuff is anyway.

If you like bumming around a college campus, hang out around UT-Austin, which
is between 26th and 21st st. Many people will be wearing an ugly burnt orange
color, similar to the orange at the top of this web page.

~~~
tx
Agreed. However, you haven't mentioned the BEST "feature" of Austin. We have
an absolutely unique freakin jungle within 6 miles of downtown called
"Greenbelt" where you can do all kinds of crazy things on your mountain bike,
or swim with your dog in one of those natural pools or just walk for miles.
Also you can rent a boat and have fun on lake Travis, where my favorite thing
to do (although dangerous) is to jump off the rocks. Those things are why
Austin is 1st or 2nd fittest city in the nation and this is why I don't want
to move to the Valley. We have lots of "Valley refugees" here, who moved
because of cost of living and "lack of culture".

However, if "good hacker community", and especially start-up community, is
priority #1, I'd stay around SF Bay Area. Austin has only one traditional
"software VC" and they're not nearly as open minded and progressive as
numerous VCs in the Valley.

------
iratsu
You might want to consider Montreal, Quebec. It's a very lively city. It's
more populated than what you're asking for (1.6M), but it has 4 universities,
and the city itself is on a mountain (mount royal, not a very big mountain),
which is itself on an island (the island of montreal).

You can e-mail me if you want to know more about this city. iratsu at gmail
dot com

~~~
semigeek
Ah, La Belle Province. It's been 5 years since I moved to the US, but I still
have to go home for some Poutine - it's just not the same when I make it at
home.

------
nonrecursive
Stay away from Santa Fe! I lived there for a few year and it's not hacker
friendly. It's a beautiful place, but when I was there there wasn't much of a
hacker community. Also, it's expensive there and it's hard to find jobs that
pay well outside of Los Alamos and city/state government. If you're white (I'm
not), you'll likely encounter racism and you'll likely have a harder time in
city/state government than if you weren't. If you're a freelancer, you'll have
a hard time finding customers that are willing to pay a decent amount for your
services. There's also a large current of snobbery and defensiveness in the
culture which is distasteful in general and which doesn't really nurture
hackers.

------
dkokelley
Check out Santa Clarita, CA. It's just shy of 300,000 in terms of population
and it's just north of LA (at the 5 and 14 freeway). It is a bit expensive
($400k+ home prices) unless you opt to live on the outskirts of town. You can
survive on under $30,000 with a family though, if you have inexpensive tastes
and have some self control. It's only about 5mi radius, so everything is
pretty close. The city is developing quickly and does have a few tech
companies around here, but I have to be honest, the entertainment industry is
much larger here. We have a bunch of movies and other things filmed here. But
as far as job opportunities for hackers, we do have a somewhat entrepreneurial
climate.

The only "Universities" are 2 community colleges: College of the Canyons, and
Cal Arts. College of the Canyons is decent though, with about 20,000 students
per semester and growing. Under an hour drive to UCLA and USC without traffic,
and there's Cal State Northridge too (my school).

Another notable feature, Six Flags, Magic Mountain is here.

And as an added bonus, we are in a valley (surrounded on all sides), and it
just snowed on the mountains. It looks beautiful.

------
semigeek
Boulder's great - good community of hackers. Startups work together to throw
fun events (private hack-a-thons, discussions around new technologies, etc).
They've got some great New Tech Meetups, The Boulder Open Coffee Club, etc.
Good group of VCs in the area as well.

~~~
timr
I love Boulder, but it's not a good place for his wife's career neerds. Other
than UC Boulder, there's not much biotech in the area.

------
dfranke
Somerville, MA fits the bill pretty well, for sufficiently small values of
"decent climate".

~~~
KB
I lived in Cambridge, MA (Harvard Square in particular) for two years and
would say that Somerville, Arlington, and Cambridge are all good places to
check out. Boston and the surrounding area has become one of the leading
centers for BioTech research, so that would be a big plus for your wife.

I currently live in Providence, RI which is about an hour south of Boston.
Smaller hacker community, but at least there is one and its not to far from
Boston either. We also have a growing BioTech industry thanks to Brown
University. I have a friend that works at EpiVax and loves his job. Might be
worth checking out.

~~~
iamelgringo
Loved Providence. Beautiful city, great history. Best airport on the
Northeastern seaboard.

We moved to California from Providence. The __* best __* assortment of
restaurants in the whole country, as far as I'm concerned. The Boston Globe
often says that 9 out of the 10 best restaurants in Boston are in Providence.
Good entertainment scene, arts scene, etc...

Downsides: The townies (locals) get a little crusty, and you have to get used
to the idea of government == corrupt.

We moved to LA so my wife could try out the film scene, and because my
contract work in health care was drying up fast.

The winter's do get kind of long, though. And if you hear people talking about
a coming, "Noreestah" go to the store and buy all the bread and milk you can.
:)

If you do move to Providence, be sure that you live on the East Side of town.
It can be really hard to make friends if you're living anywhere else. The
native Rhode Islandics aren't really used to people from anywhere else, and it
takes a long time to make any headway in the friends department. The East Side
has RISD and Brown, so people on that side of town are a lot friendlier and
used to strangers and "ethnic people". (My landlord's phrase, not mine. Ironic
because he was very Irish. :D ).

Heck, anywhere in New England is pretty nice, and you can drive from one state
to another in less than an hour. It's all pretty close.

------
kirubakaran
Move to Coimbatore, India.

Great climate, natural beauty, five big engineering colleges, low pollution,
low living cost ($300/month=great life), many libraries, awesome eateries etc.

~~~
nose
Thanks for the heads up. Do you know of some good companies around there?

~~~
kirubakaran
No I don't. If you have specific interests in mind, I can try to find out
through my friends.

------
NoBSWebDesign
I live in Ann Arbor, MI, and I love it there. It's got the University of
Michigan. It's economy is dominated by education, high tech, and
biotechnology, according to Wikipedia.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Arbor,_Michigan>

According to Forbes, Ann Arbor is the third smartest city in the US, behind
Boulder, CO, and Bethesda, MD, but just ahead of Cambridge, MA.
[http://www.annarborspark.org/about-us/newsroom/ann-arbor-
nam...](http://www.annarborspark.org/about-us/newsroom/ann-arbor-named-third-
smartest-city/)

If you really want a great city to live in, though, especially for kids,
Plymouth Township, MI (this is actually where I'm living right now) was rated
the 37th Best Place to Live by Money Magazine, in part due to its great school
system.
[http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/moneymag/0707/gallery.BP...](http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/moneymag/0707/gallery.BPTL_top_100.moneymag/37.html)

Employment Review Magazine rated Ann Arbor the 10th best city in the nation to
live and work in June 2002. It also earned the number 10 spot in The Princeton
Review ranking of the best college towns in the nation in September 2001.
Additionally in 2001, American Style Magazine named Ann Arbor the 22nd best
Arts Destination in the nation.

Of course, then again, you've also got sites like these for a good
counterpoint. <http://www.annarborisoverrated.com/>

~~~
NoBSWebDesign
Oh, and the reason I mentioned Plymouth Township is because it's less than
half an hour from Ann Arbor, so you could easily live in Plymouth Township and
work in Ann Arbor.

------
joshstaiger
You might consider Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill, NC area. I'm in the Bay Area
now, but I enjoyed living in "The Triangle" as they call it.

Cost of living is great. There are three large universities in the area: UNC,
Duke, and NC State, meaning lots of youngish, educated people.

There's a pretty good geek community. IBM, Cisco, Redhat, and SAS all have
large presences in the area, and there is a startup scene (nothing like the
Bay Area, but it exists).

When I lived there, we had twice-monthly geek meetups and got great attendance
- met some really interesting, fairly diverse, people. The large amount of
northern ex-pats mixed with the southern culture made for a pretty cool, laid-
back, friendly atmosphere.

And there is biotech in the area as well. See
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Triangle_%28North_Carolina%...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Triangle_%28North_Carolina%29)
for a start...

Only downside is you'll definitely still need a car to get around. If you're
smart and/or lucky you can probably minimize that a bit, though. The Chapel
Hill/Carrboro area can be pretty walkable/bikeable.

------
luccastera
May I suggest Charlottesville, VA. It's really a great city to live in with a
good climate and with UVA there, plenty of things to do. It's only 2 hours
from Washington DC and 1 hour from Richmond when you do have a need for the
big city (airport, etc...)

~~~
DocSavage
Charlottesville is great but may be a little smaller than your target city. It
has a little biotech spun off from UVa. The downtown mall is a great little
area with a nice pedestrian mall.

------
mocheeks
I can vouch for other people's vote for Madison, WI. I just moved here a few
months ago after a brief stint in Richmond, VA, and a life in (or near)
Chicago.

I am really enjoying the vibe of this often forgotten city, and and really
impressed with how diverse the terrain is in the state (considering its the
midwest).

I've met some guys from a video game startup, and a good number of people from
the big software company in town EPIC.

Certainly the cost of living here is pretty fantastically reasonable. I bought
my first house here!

email me or message me on skype (same as my name on here) if you care to learn
more about Madison :-)

I'm actually looking to start a Jelly or something here, so I can try meet
other entrepreneurs.

Good Luck!

 __I'd love to meet bilbo or anyone else here in Madison :-)

~~~
interknot
Madison is pretty great, especially in the summer, but I think our winters are
a bit foreboding.

The main problem with creating a startup atmosphere in Madison is that most
people leave once they graduate. I've managed to stick around almost a year
after graduation, but the coasts are beckoning. :)

------
culley
Albuquerque is nice. Not Flat Decent city with interesting things to do. Fair
community of hackers, coders and makers. Lots of movie money, lab money and
spin offs. It's really booming around here lately Still possible to live
walking distance to good food, bars, music, parks, and grocery stores for
minimal green (especially compared to Bay Area).

Santa Fe is expensive and full of retirees who are snobs. It's close enough to
drive up or train up (coming soon) if you'd like to visit, but no one should
live there.

The only caution is NM is the land of entrapment. Stay for more than 2 years
and you will never move away. (the spanish have been here for 500 years).

------
cmer
What didn't you like about the bay area? Mountain View or Sunnyvale seem to be
the perfect fit for what you're looking for!

~~~
davidw
I want to live someplace I can get around by bicycle. Perhaps that's
technically possible in, say, mountain view, but mountain view isn't really a
town unto itself, but a suburb or exurb or something. For all practical
purposes, all those peninsula towns are part of a big, urban area that
stretches from SF to San Jose. I agree that it would be good in a lot of other
ways, and it's a tough decision, but in terms of livability I get sick of it
every time I'm there, and I'm unenthusiastic about trying to raise a child
there.

~~~
ereldon
i get around on a bicycle in mountain view, palo alto, and the other towns
around here. you just need to figure out the bike routes.

~~~
DocSavage
Yeah, Palo Alto and Stanford are very bike friendly and very expensive :/ I
got around for most of my first year on bike.

------
dougb
Pittsburgh, PA (Oakland, Squirrel Hill) is a great place. Housing close to the
city can be found pretty cheap. CMU, Pitt Med School, RAND. It definitely has
topography. Has a small biotech community.

~~~
rms
I'm in Pittsburgh until I leave... the biotech community mostly consists of
UPMC but they have a huge presence in the town. There are some medical device
startups here but the lack of angel/VC funding minimizes the startup presence.

Housing is very cheap here; it's one of the few housing markets in the country
with the peculiar property that a monthly mortgage payment would be less than
rent on an equivalent house. I wouldn't recommend raising a family in Oakland,
which is turning into a student ghetto all over, but Squirrel Hill's a good
neighborhood.

There's a whole lot of topography and global warming has made our winters a
little better.

~~~
jam
+1 for the Squirrel Hill and Shadyside neighborhoods in Pittsburgh. Incredibly
cheap housing, biotech jobs are numerous, and there's more capital available
than you'd think. CMU & Pitt churn out lots of science and engineering
students as well.

Major cons: cold winters (it hit the single digits recently), shitty road
surfaces

~~~
pg
I grew up in Pittsburgh and it has another con you forgot: it is one of the
cloudiest places in the US. IIRC only Erie and Buffalo are worse. I took it
for granted when I was a kid, but it would get me down now.

------
webwright
Madison Wisconsin is a neat town-- I almost moved there. Winters are a bit
cold.

I'm digging Seattle quite a bit... It's a big soggy in the winter but
downright glorious in the summer. Winters aren't much wetter than the Bay
Area, near as I can tell. Great access to outdoorsy stuff and a fairly lively
startup community. Skiing 45 minutes east. Dry wine country 2 hours east. If
you want to live in the sticks, there are some cool towns that people commute
from on ferries. How cool is that?

Austin is cool. Decidedly un-Texan and charming.

------
DanielBMarkham
Charlottesville, Virginia.

Lots of great outdoorsy things to do, great university, great cost-of-living,
great quality-of-life, and fairly-easy access to Washington DC if you want to
do the huge city stuff. (Plus there are things that DC has that you're just
not going to find anywhere else) UVA has a huge medical college with all kinds
of biotech. There is some startup activity in the area, but as you mention,
you'll be taking a hit from places like SF.

------
menloparkbum
biotech is more of a limiting factor than hacker-friendly. there are only
three places in the USA: bay area, boston area, philadelphia suburbs / new
jersey. none of which are mid-sized.

Boulder is nice, but I can't stand the people in Colorado. I would not say it
is 'hacker friendly.' New Mexico is an interesting place to visit, sort of...
but a horrible place to live.

My favorite mid-sized town in the USA is probably Portland.

~~~
davidw
You're 100% correct about biotech being a limiting factor. I can find _some_
kind of programming job pretty much anywhere, but biotech really is about
clusters...sigh. That said, she can only work at one job, so if she gets one
of the few jobs in someplace like Boulder or Portland or wherever, that's good
enough.

What don't you like about NM? I've never been there but it always seemed kind
of interesting/different. And the people in Colorado...?

~~~
menloparkbum
Different is a good word for NM. It is "kind of interesting" but it is also
completely disgusting. Think of the worst place you have ever accidentally
driven through in the USA. Now imagine that place is in the desert and
everyone who lives there is on crystal meth. That is Albuquerque. Santa Fe is
more of a retirement town that happens to have an atomic research facility.

I don't like stereotypical republicans or phony outdoorsy liberal types, so I
didn't get along with anyone in Colorado.

------
fortes
Coimbra in Portugal would be the nearest Portuguese city that fits the bill.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coimbra>

However, the economy in Portugal is so-so ... it's gotten better, but at times
seems like a 3rd world country in Western Europe. Surprisingly high prices
given the low salaries there.

------
dualogy
Romanic language and decent climate? Most of Spain is full of lovely mid-sized
towns. fitting _those_ bills. What else is "hacker friendly"? Heck, any
rathole is hacker friendly, all I need is coffee, cigarettes and somewhere to
plug my laptop into.

Oh, you have family. That's different. Still, Spain's nice and Portugal might
be, too.

~~~
davidw
The 'biotech jobs' thing is the problematic thing about Spain (and likely
Portugal as well). I think. Anyone with good local knowledge is welcome to
correct me. Otherwise, it has certainly crossed our thoughts - we went to
Madrid, Sevilla and Granada on vacation a few years ago and enjoyed ourselves
quite a bit.

------
patrickg-zill
You may want to consider Almeria, Spain. Large contingent of Brits and other
expats, excellent weather, excellent services, and at least one University in-
town, others nearby. A quick 45 minute flight to Madrid. Old Roman bath nearby
, Mediterranean Sea, then beach, then 30 minutes away are foothills/rocky
terrain.

If staying in the USA, the area outside Philadelphia (Main Line) or going a
little farther, Lancaster, PA, will have excellent access to just about
anywhere on the East Coast, while being as small to mid-size as you want, as
you can choose between mostly-rural to mostly-urban as you travel west on Rt.
30 out of Philly.

------
rcoder
If you like southern Oregon, but want better job options, it's tough to
imagine how you could do much better than Portland. There are plenty of big
tech employers along the 26 corridor, great mass transit and bike access, and
an increasingly-vibrant startup culture.

True, there aren't the same number of overnight paper millionaires being
minted as in SF or NY, but you can still house and feed a family on 60K a
year.

We've got an up-and-coming restaurant scene, and some of the best beer in the
country, too. I find it a pretty nice mix.

It does rain a lot. I'm usually too busy coding, cooking, or biking through
traffic to care, though.

------
pg
In the US any college town that size should fit the bill. It will be cheaper
if not a suburb of a big city (Boulder is pretty expensive), and have a better
climate if in the west. Portland might be the optimum.

~~~
davidw
Sure... it's not hard to look up college towns in the west, but I'm also
looking for information on the 'feel' of places. Some people have posted
negative opinions about New Mexico, for instance, which is something I
wouldn't have found out on my own.

~~~
jey
Davis, CA is a small university town with a great feel, and is only a 90
minute from the SF Bay Area. I prefer big cities and currently live in San
Francisco, but I would live in Davis if I wanted to live in a small town.

------
kajecounterhack
Holmdel, NJ. Home of AT&T, Lucent Technologies, Avaya, Vonage and general
telecommunications. Lots of brain here. Population is 20% Asian, so kids get
off on chinese new year (today). Schools are very exceptional, and the
selective High Tech High School nearby in Lincroft is top 50 high schools in
the country. A decent home around here is between 400-700k, probably a little
cheaper for townhouses.

------
mfruhling
Maryland is great. You can live in Columbia, MD and be between Baltimore and
D.C. The IT salaries are very competitive and the cost of living is
dramatically cheaper. Tons of great schools and Universities. Mountains 3
hours to the west, beaches 3 hours to the east. It gets a little too cold
Dec.-Feb..

~~~
llimllib
Cost of living is indeed fantastic, I bought a nice house in Baltimore for
just over 200.

However, in terms of bike commute, or to say that it's hacker friendly, I
don't see that myself. Have you found people that I haven't?

Also, is there much biotech outside of UMBI?

------
bokonist
There's New Haven, Connecticut. It's got Yale University and a bunch of
biotech companies. The downtown is greatly improved and offers a variety of
delicious restaurants. The housing prices are pretty cheap too. Not so many
software companies though, so that might be an issue.

------
kevTheDev
How about Brighton, UK?

It's pretty small (around 250k people).

It's by the sea.

It's pretty hilly (For England)

It's an hour from London.

It's very hacker friendly - we have:

2 Universities:

<http://www.brighton.ac.uk>

<http://www.sussex.ac.uk>

A thriving geek/entrepreneur community:

<http://www.brightongirlgeekdinners.co.uk/>

<http://www.brightoncodingdojo.co.uk/>

<http://fivepoundapp.com/meetup/10/>

<http://www.opencoffeesussex.com/> (Sometimes open beer and open juice meetups
too)

<http://brighton-ruby.org/>

<http://www.brightonfarm.com/> (Freelancers meetup)

<http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/419779/> (Geek Wine Thing)

<http://www.businessbricks.co.uk/>

Great places to work either in startups or as freelancers:

<http://www.sinc.co.uk/> (Sussex Innovation Centre)

<http://www.werkshop.org.uk/>

<http://www.brightonnewmedia.com/>

Great events:

<http://www.barcampbrighton.org/>

<http://2008.dconstruct.org/>

<http://widgetygoodness.com/>

Some big companies too:

<http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/401666/> (Linden Labs)

Plus a couple of games companies - Climax, NCSoft
[http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/digitalcontent/2007/11/club_peng...](http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/digitalcontent/2007/11/club_penguin_to_celebrate_guy.html)

Plus it's a really relaxed and friendly place to be, more pubs/bars than days
in the year (really) and the famous North and South Laines shopping areas for
people who don't really enjoy the mall. Oh and some people call it
BrightonCisco (<http://presencelabs.com/2007/03/07/brightoncisco/>).

There are many other reasons to be here and I'm sorry to any one if i've
missed something really important out.

Kev

~~~
madmotive
Don't forget the brilliant SussexDigital that brings much of this together:
<http://www.sussexdigital.com>

... and groups like <http://www.wiredsussex.com>,
<http://www.projectbrighton.com> and <http://www.inuda.net> (I'm the founder
of that one)

.. oh and the weather today is amazing! :
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/brighton/clusters/beach-
pi...](http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/brighton/clusters/beach-pier-sea/)

------
jey
Why not live in the bay area, enjoy all of the awesomeness, and opt out of the
"rat race"?

~~~
ardit33
housing is insane around in here. 800k buys you a shack. Unless you were
either 1 Rich, 2.Cashed out huge amount of option shares 3.Gettin in debt out
of your eyeballs, it is hard to afford a decent house with a normal salary. I
like Berkeley, and SF, but still, living around in here is very expensive.

~~~
davidw
I find that this has a big impact on the local demographics. One of the
reasons I was so happy to return to Padova in 2000 is that it just feels more
'real' to me. There are rich people, poor people, and everything in between.
Lots of old people, but plenty of young people and families as well.

The bay area, unless you're rich, seems to be more about "get in, make money,
get out". We're a bit weary of moving, and would like to stay somewhere for a
little while.

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hisham
Seattle is pretty good too.

~~~
davidw
I'm from Eugene, and don't think I could handle the weather there again, let
alone further north, although if other people reading this are curious, I'd
have to put a word in for Portland, if the climate isn't a problem for you.

~~~
olefoo
And you aren't even thinking about Corvallis?

I mean Eugene and Corvallis both have most of the features you listed, plus
you're an hour away from the coast and from the mountains...

For those looking to plug in to the Willamette Valley Tech social networks
<http://barcamp.org/BeaverBarCamp> is coming up on March 1st in Corvallis.

~~~
wallflower
I've been armchair-surfing the Portland tech scene. This blog about the PDX
tech scene is interesting..

<http://siliconflorist.com/>

"Calagator, the community project designed to give Portland one tech calendar
to rule them all, has quickly begun to show signs of progress. In fact, events
have begun populating the calendar already." <http://calagator.org/>

I didn't know Oregon (Corvallis) had such a vibrant technology culture/market.

~~~
davidw
I don't know that Corvallis is big enough to be really "happening", although
it's a pleasant enough place. Portland is a better bet if you can stand the
climate. Unfortunately, I really can't. The endless gray just wears me down
mentally. I need regular time outdoors and sunshine. For others though, I'd
heartily recommend Portland.

------
mixmax
Copenhagen is a great place. I'll buy you a beer if you go here :-)

~~~
babo
Sipping beer on a nearby hilltop... :-)

~~~
davidw
Denmark seems cool in a lot of ways, but unfortunately one of those ways is
the climate - not to mention it completely fails the topography test: our
house in downtown Innsbruck is about 3 times higher than the highest point in
Denmark.

I actually have to say that Innsbruck isn't such a terrible place, but it's a
bit too small and doesn't seem to have much of a tech scene. The area is
gorgeous though:

<http://www.welton.it/photos/innsbruck/>

------
gregwebs
Anyone have experience with Sacramento? There is definitely some tech stuff
going on in the surrounding area (Folsom), but I am not sure how many startups
there are.

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dawnerd
Ventura County, CA - Lots of places. Thousand oaks is where Amgen is HQ'ed.
Lots of programming firms there. Bit on the pricey side though.

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jmtulloss
Two come to mind for me: Columbus, OH and Champaign, IL.

Champaign seems pretty close to what you're looking for, but it's definitely
too flat. That's why I'm leaving.

Columbus has Ohio State right there, and is as booming as you're going to find
in Ohio. It's a beautiful city for the size and there's a sizable tech
industry there. It's a place I wouldn't hesitate to live, but I have yet to do
my time in the bay area and look forward to trying that for a few years.

~~~
motoko
Columbus OH???

I lived in Columbus. Your opinion is invalid.

Topography: absolutely flat

Size: Columbus is a sprawling stain of concrete blight of about a million
people.

College: If you obsessively love football and Natti Light, OK.

Tech Industry: name one. A small, dying satellite office of a huge
multinational doesn't count. Neither does insurance or fast food.

Beautiful: Short North area is OK, but nothing special unless you compare it
Toledo or Dayton

~~~
jmtulloss
I'm not sure I understand why my opinion is invalid. My family is in the
Columbus area, I'm not entirely ignorant on the topic.

And I do obsessively love football :)

~~~
davidw
I didn't vote anyone down, because I don't want to hog this whole thread, and
some cool places turned up that I personally wouldn't consider but might be
great for others (Madison sounds nice), but I think he's referring to the fact
that Columbus is 1) bigger than the listed target size, 2) doesn't have a good
climate, 3) is flatter than a pancake, and 4) according to him at least (I
wouldn't have a clue) isn't really that great for startups/hackers anyway.

Truth be told, I think my idea of 'topography' is different than a lot of
people's. _This_ is topography:

[http://www.welton.it/photos/innsbruck/innsbruck_panorama.htm...](http://www.welton.it/photos/innsbruck/innsbruck_panorama.html)

While I'm fine with places not quite that dramatic - Padova only has some low-
lying hills (5-600 M) nearby - I'd go crazy without some nice places to go
biking/hiking.

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simianstyle
I'd say somewhere around Boston would be ideal - Brookline, Cambridge,
Framingham, etc..

------
Tichy
Have you looked at Munich, while visiting the Android Developers Workshop?

------
aristus
Florida: There are some very pretty places in & around Orlando. There are tons
of heavy-tech firms like Lockeed and Disney. I remember a few years ago that
they were trying to whip up a "biotech hub", too. Scripps-Howard is setting up
something in Boca Raton.

~~~
ardit33
no f ucking way. Orlando is just a huge boring strip mall. Disneyland is a
rip-off. And those firms, are really just megacorporates where only code
monkeys work.

------
jotto
milwaukee, wisconsin, GE medical

~~~
bilbo0s
Only having read his description, I would say Milwaukee is definitely NOT for
him. Madison would be more his speed.

It is full of startups and a big university. Bio tech, medical and video
gaming are the big things in Madison startup-wise. Milwaukee is good for
financial, corporate and real estate type things.

Fun fact: Over the last decade, GE Medical has outsourced a LOT of tech
people. Many were made offers in Madison. GE Medical, and the Milwaukee area
in general, typically buy these people back essentially at a significant
markup when they acquire the startups. Think Lunar.

~~~
davidw
Sounds like a nice place (voted up), but fails our climate and topography
tests. Maybe it's right for someone else reading though, I read about it a
little and it sounds like it's got a very good feel to it in terms of size and
population.

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green
Chicago, IL - or Evanston, Skokie which are around. Great place. No need to
have car, unless you want to have it :-)

~~~
falsestprophet
This is strange. The only place in America I would leave Chicago for is San
Fransisco.

~~~
wallflower
Chicago has the best waterfront in my option and the best summers. The
restaurant and art scene are top-notch. The winters though...

~~~
falsestprophet
Oh God, I know. One of my highest priorities in life is to be able to be
somewhere else during the Chicago winter.

~~~
green
Miami is close. ;-)

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adityaadvani
vancouver or san diego. both little bigger, but both fit the 'livable' bill

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benn
Wellington , New Zealand. Totally rules.

~~~
connellybarnes
What's great about Wellington for hackers?

