
Ask HN: How do I stop companies from up-leveling me? Am I underselling myself? - allthemcodes
I have a BS in CS and between 4.5-5 years of experience in mostly backend and some full-stack development. I consider myself a solid intermediate level engineer. Likely not too junior, but definitely not senior. I generally apply to SWE II positions, but then recruiters&#x2F;hiring managers say I would be a better fit for SWE III roles. When I apply to mid-level positions, recruiters&#x2F;hiring managers decide I&#x27;m a better fit for senior roles.<p>Honestly, I&#x27;m not that good. I&#x27;m a super mediocre coder. I try to be really transparent with my work experience and skill set and I acknowledge that I have weaknesses that need fixing and plenty of learning still left ahead. I never go into an interview and tell people I&#x27;m amazing. My attitude is more like &quot;Eh, yeah I&#x27;m pretty decent I guess. I want to be awesome one day though, so looking forward to the learning experience at your company, it&#x27;s a great opportunity, thanks for your time.&quot; I&#x27;m just afraid that potential employers think I&#x27;m capable of doing things that in reality I cannot do, and I don&#x27;t want to go into the job and eventually get fired if I fail to meet the expectations that I was hired based on. I don&#x27;t know if I can go against these employers and say, &quot;No, I want to be a SWE 2 not a 3. No, I&#x27;m a mid-level SWE, not a senior. Interview me with that in mind and stop having such high expectations of me.&quot; I can&#x27;t tell if I&#x27;m potentially lacking confidence, or if I&#x27;m misrepresenting my work experience to seem more impactful than it really was.
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gcheong
There will always, or eventually, be a point at every company where you will
be tasked with something you haven't done before. At least if you're at a
company that has challenging things to do. And for the most part you will be
on your own. How good you get is pretty much up to you - no company cares much
about mentoring or training except in superficial ways. That's been my
experience at least. It seems these days Senior Engineer is a title given to
basically anyone that isn't straight out of a bootcamp or college with a
couple years or more under their belt.

~~~
allthemcodes
So basically it doesn't matter which level you're hired for, because you'll
have to teach yourself how to do the job regardless (with minimal
training/mentoring)?

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gcheong
That's mostly been my experience. If you've got more than a couple years
experience most companies expect you to perform with minimal direction beyond
showing you where the code is. Perhaps I'm just cynical, which is a good
possibility so grain of salt and all that, and your mileage may vary. You may
consider asking in the interview where the interviewer feels their skills are
today relative to where they were when they joined and how they got to that
level. That doesn't mean I haven't worked with great people - and I think you
should look for those people - who in some way have helped me level up my
skill, but it's never been under any kind of formal or defined process or
company value system.

~~~
giantg2
I very much agree. I would also add the cynical side that management always
finds things to nitpick and hold people back.

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drunkpotato
There comes a time when your internal expectations don’t align with the world,
and this is one of those times. The days when “senior” meant a decade or more
of experience are long gone. Now the industry has decided that 5 years is a
senior software engineer, 10 years is a principal. Enjoy the higher pay while
it lasts.

~~~
giantg2
I see way more senior postings than everything else combined. Your comment
about 5 years experience helps this make sense.

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sevilo
I have the opposite issue, also have around 5 years of experienced, for more
than once I have been perceived as a junior during interviews and then after
working for 2-3 months managers and teams would throw comments like “we under-
leveled you, let’s get you a promo and fix it” “you’re more senior than I
thought”. I don’t know what gives the impression during interviews and it’s
starting to frustrate me, I just want to be brought in at the right level that
reflects what I’m able to offer. I’m a woman if that matters at all and I
wonder if anyone else has encountered that and can offer some advice.

~~~
gcheong
"I’m a woman if that matters at all...". It could very well be. Not
necessarily because you're being immediately discounted because you are a
woman (though that could be a factor), but women oftentimes do not negotiate
their position up front as much as men do. I don't know if that is true in
your case, but if so perhaps holding out for a higher position up front, with
reasoning provided, before accepting a position might help.

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sharemywin
I think you over estimating what a SWE III/senior dev is.

Also, it's possible the what your asking for salary wise is more senior level.
So to pay you correctly you need XYZ title.

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croh
> Honestly, I'm not that good. I'm a super mediocre coder. I try to be really
> transparent with my work experience and skill set and I acknowledge that I
> have weaknesses that need fixing and plenty of learning still left ahead.

When you understand what you don't know, you become mature and journey towards
excellence starts. So don't underestimate yourself, you'r on right path. Just
stay passionate and curious. It will pay you off in long run. (I might be
wrong, but in my experience people who talk loud knew very less)

> I'm just afraid that potential employers think I'm capable of doing things
> that in reality I cannot do, and I don't want to go into the job and
> eventually get fired if I fail to meet the expectations that I was hired
> based on.

Don't bother with these thoughts. If you get selected, it means you're a good
fit (Again don't underestimate your interviewers). I was in similar dilemma
before, but it worked out well.

> don't know if I can go against these employers and say, "No, I want to be a
> SWE 2 not a 3. No, I'm a mid-level SWE, not a senior. Interview me with that
> in mind and stop having such high expectations of me." I can't tell if I'm
> potentially lacking confidence, or if I'm misrepresenting my work experience
> to seem more impactful than it really was.

Everything depends on organization structure & culture. Designation doesn't
play big role always. Things change across project to project and people to
people. You may end up with no responsibility or all responsibility.

Also instead of planning career in SWE2/3/4, consider below categories based
on responsibilities and skillset required.

\- IC (SWE2/3/4/architect)

\- Manager (Delivery Manager/Product Owners/Program Managers etc)

\- Executives (Directors/Managers/VPs)

\- Enterprenures

So if you're SWE2, you can easily SURVIVE as SWE3/4/architect.

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Chyzwar
There is no industry standard for SWE. In startup 5 years experience might be
senior but in S&P500 might be just a mid level.

Listen to theirs expectations. Senior position might be not necessary scary. A
lot of places expect more communications/mentoring skills than coding from
senior.

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atmosx
Apart from the technical side of things, there is a level of maturity
regarding behavior and high level approach that comes into play. Maybe you
have these traits naturally, thus ppl assume you are a senior developer.

I wouldn’t get too stuck in levels (junior, senior, principal, etc.). They
don’t map between companies the way you’d expect.

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LogicX
You’re technical and have self-awareness of failings?

I’d hire you to be a manager. I wouldn’t be worried you can’t learn and grow.

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afarrell
Note that being aware of one's failings doesn't necessarily mean a person has
yet learned how to mitigate them.

And it is downright spirit-crushing to go into a situation thinking, "I do not
know what I'm doing", ask for help only to be told to have more self-
confidence, fail, and then have others be disappointed in you for your
'obvious' failures.

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giantg2
I have a similar issue. I'm also wondering if I'm selling myself short (prior
to switching stacks). I also get many more emails for senior dev positions
even though I'm midlevel.

I'd say give it a shot.

