
On Ocracoke Island, the only American dialect that is not identified as American - MiriamWeiner
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20190623-the-us-island-that-speaks-elizabethan-english
======
sudosteph
The linguistic diversity in NC is really fun if you're into that sort of
thing. Hoi toider is quite unique, but after having traveled and met folks
from more parts of the state, it's obvious that there is no single "southern"
or "north carolina" accent in general. Appalachian, piedmont, and eastern
accents all have noticeable differences - and hoi toider is very unique, but I
don't meet many people with that one. Now that so much of the state revolves
around cities with high influxes of out-of-staters (Charlotte and Raleigh),
accents are less noticeable even for people born and raised there. But
differences are definitely still there, just far more subtle.

One thing I noticed from looking at the data for the accent quiz, is that
North Carolinians are far more likely to NOT say soda/pop/coke in actual
conversation. We just use "drink" for everything. I attribute that to the fact
that sweet tea still seems to be the most popular beverage. It was the only
place on the map where I saw that particular quirk.

~~~
smacktoward
I wonder if this could be connected to Colin Woodard's argument in his book
_American Nations_
([https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0670022969/](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0670022969/))
that there are eleven basic regional cultures in North America. According to
his map
([https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/55b273a2371d2211008b9...](https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/55b273a2371d2211008b9793-960-654.jpg)),
North Carolina sits right at the intersection of three of them -- Tidewater in
the north, Deep South in the south, and Greater Appalachia in the west. You'd
expect to see lots of linguistic diversity in a place where different cultures
are rubbing up against each other.

Interestingly, Woodard's book echoes an earlier work, Joel Garreau's 1981 _The
Nine Nations of North America_ ([https://www.amazon.com/Nine-Nations-North-
America/dp/0380578...](https://www.amazon.com/Nine-Nations-North-
America/dp/0380578859)). Garreau, however, put all of NC inside his "Dixie"
nation, the analogue to Woodard's "Deep South." I wonder how much of this can
be chalked up to differences in methodology, and how much to demographic
shifts in the three decades separating Woodard's work from Garreau's.

~~~
LyndsySimon
Thanks for linking these - I'd seen them before, but hadn't caught the name of
the book. I'll be picking it up :)

For what it's worth, my own experience says that the area for "Greater
Appalachia" is pretty much 100% correct. The borders aren't quite sharp, and
interesting things definitely happen where two or more "nations" meet.

I also know that West Virginia and middle Tennessee feel like "home" to me,
and I'm from the Arkansas Ozarks.

------
dermatthias
I think I am not the only one who is missing some sound samples. Here you go:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7MvtQp2-UA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7MvtQp2-UA)

~~~
nrjames
There are way more than 150 people who speak that dialect. I spend a lot of
time down east - there are lots of similar dialects, etc. all around the area,
not just on Ocracoke, but in Atlantic, Harkers Island, Beaufort, and other
similar areas.

------
gumboshoes
Nope, false. Ask a linguist. It's not Elizabethan. Walt Wolfram, the linguist
they quote, is quite certainly irritated by the headline. All of his decades
of work summed up by a stupidly incorrect headline.

~~~
benatkin
I don't think the author thinks the headline is literally true. It's
contradicted in the first paragraph:

"It's like someone took Elizabethan English, sprinkled in some Irish tones and
1700s Scottish accents, then mixed it all up with pirate slang."

I don't mind it because I don't think it's misleading. It's just a mildly
inaccurate simplification to draw readers in. I don't think it would bother
the linguist they quote, either.

~~~
hvs
"mildly inaccurate simplification" is a long way to say "clickbait."

~~~
TallGuyShort
You really think that simplifying to Elizabethan has a significant impact on
how interesting the article sounds and to whom? As if there was an intentional
decision to deceive people who are excited to hear about Elizabethan English
only to find out it's not _quite_ Elizabethan English. What sinister scheming!

~~~
astazangasta
In 1759 Elizabeth was dead for 150 years.

~~~
TallGuyShort
... so?

------
LyndsySimon
There are a few places in and near Tidewater where this dialect is at least as
common as it is on Ocracoke. There are even many pockets of it (and very
similar dialects) inland as far as the Blue Ridge if you visit the small
towns, know where to look, and figure out where the older generation comes to
drink coffee and jaw in the morning.

I lived in Charlottesville for five years, and the native dialects of Virginia
fascinated me. I grew up in Arkansas and to my ears, residents of the
Shenandoah Valley from West Virginia to Tennessee almost don't have an accent
at all. Twenty miles east of there in the rural areas, and it's an entirely
different sound - almost Bostonian in some ways. Further east, and you start
hearing a hint of the aristocratic Southern accent (think "Rhett Butler"),
especially between Goochland and the Rappahannock. Keep going and it fades
into what the article calls "Hoi Toid".

~~~
sudosteph
Where did you find a hoi toider accent in the Blue Ridge?! I've never heard of
such a thing. Though most of my reference is from family in the area of
Watauga and Mitchell counties of NC.

------
macintux
While doing some digging after reading this I also found about Portsmouth
Island, adjacent. No longer inhabited, but used to be a major point of entry.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth,_North_Carolina](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth,_North_Carolina)

~~~
nrjames
You can rent cabins there. Great place to fish and find awesome seashells, if
you can dodge the aggressive flies.

------
DonaldFisk
To hear what it sounds like, you can listen to this series of Youtube videos:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjIOuWUuGGc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjIOuWUuGGc)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvfhUGblRAw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvfhUGblRAw)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPM0X_8cO_U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPM0X_8cO_U)

------
empath75
There’s also Smith Island in Maryland that has a similarly isolated 16th
century dialect.

~~~
soylentcola
That's what I was thinking as well. I stayed there for a week once and it was
quite an odd place. Very empty, no police, few cars (but you could drive a
golf cart around the island in not too much time).

Technically a "dry" island but the ferry guy has no problem bringing over
alcohol for tourists or those who pay him. Met some interesting characters
there.

~~~
delinka
"Dry" just means it can't be sold there. Doesn't mean you can't own it there.
Buy it outside, bring it in.

~~~
darkpuma
That's what it always means in the lower 48, though notably in Alaska there
are some communities that are _true_ dry, in that they outlaw simple
possession as well. In Alaska, they use the term "damp" to describe places
where you can own but not buy alcohol and "dry" to describe places where
ownership and sale are both prohibited.

~~~
pavon
As another nuance, some dry counties have had pretty strict enforcement of
public intoxication laws as well (as in if you can't legally drive, don't try
walking home from a friends house either), while others were no different than
wet counties.

------
hammock
See also Tangier Island:
[https://youtu.be/AIZgw09CG9E](https://youtu.be/AIZgw09CG9E)

~~~
dang
There have been HN threads about Tangier Island English in the past, but I
can't find any. Perhaps someone will.

I also remember hearing about an antiquated dialect of English spoken
somewhere in Northern California. Anyone know about that?

~~~
hammock
Boonville, CA

[https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/boontling-language-of-
bo...](https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/boontling-language-of-boonville)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boontling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boontling)

~~~
dang
Thank you!

------
louthy
It sounds similar to the Cornish accent, interesting.

~~~
BjoernKW
Yes, it does.

Shakespeare expert Ben Crystal once gave this presentation on 'proper'
pronunciation of Shakespearian English:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2QYGEwM1Sk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2QYGEwM1Sk)

In terms of modern accents, West Country English probably is the one that
comes closest to that.

------
flyinghamster
I've always been fascinated by places that are a bit off the beaten track.
Western Illinois (between the Illinois and Mississippi Rivers) and Michigan's
Thumb are closer to home for me, and the Thumb especially has some of its own
slang.

------
checkyoursudo
I do not know how to reconcile articles like this and ones about Tangier
Island or similar with the claims I have read that American colonists probably
sounded more like modern Americans than, say, some other non-RP English
accent.

------
madengr
I suppose I’ll get downvoted, but I remember visiting the Outer Banks for the
first time in the mid 70’s (also taking the ferry to Okrakoke). Interestingly
(scientifically) there was a noticeable number of congenital defects in the
population (southern Outer Banks). I suppose one of the downsides of having an
isolated population.

~~~
mc32
Any endogamous population runs a risk. Isolated populations can be endogamous
but not necessarily as some will have traditions which facilitate exogamy.

~~~
Wildgoose
Presumably such as the Viking "Up Helly Aa" festival around Shetland - plenty
of opportunity for drunken get-togethers and a little "genetic mixing".

It's worth a visit, although the North Sea is exceptionally rough at that time
of year, (last Tuesday in January).

[https://www.uphellyaa.org](https://www.uphellyaa.org)

------
alistairSH
We used to take our family vacations on Ocracoke. The first time we booked a
fishing charter, my wife couldn't understand the man on the other end of the
phone! We eventually got it all sorted out and we went fishing with the
O'Neals several times over the next few years. Always a good time.

------
Gupie
Founded in 1759, i.e. mid 18th century, not 16th.

------
every
Is everything in iambic pentameter?

------
cmpb
The article mentions the fact that the dialect and culture are diminishing. In
Louisiana, we have the same problem happening with the Cajun and Creole
cultures, and it’s very sad to see. My wife’s grandmother spoke only Cajun
French for all of her youth and still doesn’t speak English very comfortably,
but that generation is dying off. Unfortunately, the more thoroughly Cajun
areas of Louisiana are also the poorest, and so many of the new generations
are leaving to bigger cities and more opportunities, myself and my wife
included.

There are attempts to keep the language alive, but I’m betting it won’t be
nearly enough, and it will likely only live on in an academic sense. The
culture has of course also started to dissolve, but that’s no different from
what’s experienced in areas all over the US what with ever increasing exposure
to the ‘common identity’ via the internet/etc.

At the very least, however, our food culture has been so well-infused into our
lives that I really doubt that aspect will die off anytime soon.

~~~
sneakernets
The reason these dialects (I am a speaker of this) are dying is that they are
discouraged at a young age by the school systems and parents who are worried
that dialects like these are seen as "unintelligent" and will cause everything
from bullying by children at school, to being turned down for interviews, jobs
and even college.

My mother was disciplined for it repeatedly. I had to take "speech therapy"
until I was much older when there was a bit of backlash growing against it
locally - That was as recent as the late 90s.

~~~
LyndsySimon
> they are discouraged at a young age by the school systems and parents who
> are worried that dialects like these are seen as "unintelligent" and will
> cause everything from bullying by children at school, to being turned down
> for interviews, jobs and even college.

I have two girls, and struggle with this.

At home, our language us is very different from when we're in public. I make
it a point to correct my girls' grammar when outside the home (or when it's
particularly egregious, like subject/verb disagreement), but generally don't
at home. "I ain't gonna" is acceptable at home, but "I'm not going to" is
expected elsewhere.

This approach is based on my own experiences.

On one hand, as an adult, I feel like I fit in well with the people around me
even though I seem to have little in common with them - I'm a remote
developer, and most of the people I interact with on a daily basis are
tradesmen or other blue-collar workers. I'm convinced this is because I look,
act, and sound like they do.

When I'm interacting with my colleagues I enunciate much more clearly and my
grammar is significantly better, to the point that I sometimes wonder if my
sentence structure makes me sound like I'm trying too hard. It seems to be
effective.

On the other, I have a close family member who has struggled throughout her
education with both grammar and spelling. She's a high school teacher now, but
had to take her certification test numerous times due to repeatedly failing
the language portion. She never learned to switch between colloquial and
formal language, and never really developed a feel for what is correct grammar
and what's not. She also has issues spelling many words. This could be because
she is younger than I am and was taught using a different method (she learned
"sight words" first; I learned phonics), or it could be because I read a lot
more in childhood than she did.

At the end of the day, I want my children to be able to speak at the same
level as their professional peers, and I want their peers to be educated
professionals. I also want them to be able to self-identify with the people
they grew up with, and not to immediately associate a dialect of any sort with
intelligence.

~~~
turk73
Actually, it might be better to be who you are, isn't that the moral of My
Fair Lady?

Most of the people I work with in the Fortune 10 are educated idiots.
Corporate communications, especially e-mails contain egregious spelling and
grammatical errors. It's constant. I have very little respect for most of
these people. They believe themselves smart but in reality are merely average
or even slightly below that.

------
JPKab
The article is garbage for a few reasons:

1) Ocracoke barely has any native residents left. 2) Tangier Island, Virginia
is a much, much better example of this, and has lots of residents who speak
with this dialect.

"Elizabethian" is a gross oversimplification.

~~~
dmix
It's the perfect recipe for a clickbait headline (unusual, widest possible
audience - everyone "gets" accents, a bit controversial). Not that it doesn't
have any value.

To me it sounds like an Australian accent mixed with an American south:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7MvtQp2-UA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7MvtQp2-UA)

I'm sure the people from the UK are far more opinionated about the matter.

