

The ethical coffee shop freelancer - titlex
https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/c4f0ca1b4b1e

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preinheimer
I hack at a coffee shop with some frequency, and have built a sufficient
rapport with the staff that I feel I can get honest answers out of a few of
them.

Starbucks aims to be the "third place". Home, Work, Starbucks. That's what
_they_ want, they want to be inviting, they want to have good wifi, new stores
should have very convenient power. So it's not like they didn't plan on this
happening. But they do have numbers to meet.

\- They do complain about people who buy a small coffee then site for five
hours. (so keep buying)

\- They seem less concerned with what you're buying, more concerned with you
doing it with some frequency (unless it's the cheapest thing on the menu)

\- If you have a loyalty card, your free refill appear the same to them as if
you bought something, so don't feel bad there.

\- They hate people who shout into skype, listen to music through speakers, or
take over multiple seats (just as much as you do)

\- Leave 10 minutes before closing.

\- Tip.

I think there's also work that cafés can do to better manage their space. I
look at patrons in two camps: campers and drinkers.

Campers show up laptop and stay for a long time. Drinkers want to come in, buy
a coffee, sit down and drink it, maybe with a friend, then leave.

Having seating targeted at both groups helps them make effective use of the
space. My old starbucks had nice bar-style seating facing a window. Narrow
ledge big enough for a paperback and a coffee, not big enough for a laptop.
This fit in a lot of patrons per square foot (compared to a full table &
chair). "Campers" could fill up appropriate seating, then "drinkers" could
show up and still see great seats for themselves. Drinkers who came early
often saw the nice seats by the window and filled up there first, leaving more
tables for campers.

My current coffee shop only has seating that works for campers. So the place
can fill up with the laptop crowd, a drinker can walk in then walk back out.
Or it can fill up with Drinkers, and lose campers the same way.

~~~
munificent
I don't disagree with your comment, but I want to note:

> Starbucks aims to be the "third place". Home, Work, Starbucks. That's what
> _they_ want

They're aiming to be your _third_ place, the tension here is that it's
becoming a _second_ place for many. That places a different burden on the a
coffeeshop than being a third place does.

~~~
preinheimer
Good point.

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jrmg
Wow, the article supposes _much_ more time is 'bought' than I do.

My rule of thumb is if I'm finished consuming my purchases (consumed at a
'reasonable' rate), I can stay as long as the coffee shop has at least one
other free table.

~~~
stormbrew
This makes a lot of sense to me as a guard against being a complete jerk, but
I tend to think that even then you should probably be buying something
periodically.

Particularly if you work in a coffee shop because it's what you _prefer_ , you
should be paying a 'fair' rate for it, which I really don't think can possibly
be less than $5/hr or so.

~~~
mjn
A coffee shop I used to work at semi-regularly [1] had a sticker discreetly
placed next to the power plug, under the table, requesting that you spend
around $5/hr if you're going to stay for an extended time. Seemed like a
reasonable rule of thumb. I also like that it was done more as a "friendly
reminder" / request, not in a heavy-handed manner, like the places that give
one-time-use wifi codes that expire every hour.

[1] <http://www.cafeugly.com/>

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silencio
I see a lot of suggestions to tip heavily to counter the cost of sitting down
for a while to work at a local coffee shop. I don't think this solves the
problem at hand.

I run a food business as a side job. Don't get me wrong, I love my employees.
They deserve getting handsome tips. I tip well whenever I go out. I don't have
a problem with the idea of tipping.

However, as the owner, I don't get to touch those tips my employees receive
(and rightfully so). I'm also the one that has to pay the rent, the internet
bill, and the power bill...not my employees. Nor does tipping absolve me of
the need to pay my employees their wages.

When you are using power, wifi, and/or a seat at a business, you're using
something that the owner is offering in exchange for you ordering something to
consume. It's not something that your barista or cook or waitstaff is offering
to you, like your drink or food you ordered. It's not something that the tip
will pay for in any way. The only way to offset that cost is to keep buying
something periodically, even if it's a small drink off the menu. Really, even
the longest camper isn't using up much of anything, but it's numbers that make
a problem and really add up over the course of, say, a month.

tl;dr Buy something to eat or drink periodically on top of tipping generously.
They are two separate issues.

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lukifer
I think this also varies based on how busy/crowded the coffee shop is. I don't
feel too guilty camping when half the tables are empty, but there are many
downtown coffee places that are near capacity most of the time.

At any rate, I'm enough of a coffee fiend that I get a new beverage every hour
or two anyway. :)

~~~
bluedino
Hogging an entire table with books and a backpack and notes all over is a pet
peeve of mine. Especially a larger table that could fit four people being
taken up by one person.

Depending on what part of the country you are in, people will share a single
small table. I've been places where every open seat is taken and people are
sharing, and I've been to places where a person will become confrontational if
you ask to share their table - even if it's a four person table!

Another complaint (if I'm allowed to complain about 'free' wifi) is that a lot
of places have a slow connection, many AT&T locations seem to be limited to T1
speeds, and the router has bad QoS or bandwidth sharing. So 'that guy' who's
streaming YouTube all morning, or updating Windows, or downloading 30 apps
from the App store is just ruining the connection for everyone else. Once I
tried running 'bundle install' and after 45 minutes, just gave up and went
home.

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lifeformed
I think my dream would be to own a hacker-friendly coffeeshop as my own
office. I would run a nice coffee place with fast wifi, lots of power outlets,
and big tables, serving coffee, snacks, and simple meals. Maybe also sell some
accessories like batteries, stationery, spare chargers, earbuds, etc.

There would be a full office in the back for me and my team to work together
in. It'd be the place to meet when we needed to collaborate, but otherwise
we'd be free to come out and work in the public area. The coffeeshop needs to
make just enough money to run the whole company (the shop itself plus minimum
living expenses for the non-coffeeshop employees). That would give us the
freedom to work on whatever projects we want at our own pace.

We'd run community events like hackathons, game jams, lan parties, etc.
Basically try to build up a public place where people would love to come work
and maybe meet others to collaborate with. If the coffee isn't paying the
bills, maybe we could charge a membership fee for powerusers, or maybe operate
at a loss, if I have a sufficiently successful project that can pay for it.

~~~
bsimpson
Sounds awesome. There was a place in SF called Coffee + Power Workclub. They
closed before I had a chance to go through, but as I understand, they were a
normal startup that invited freelancers to work in their lobby.

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jinushaun
This is really about the lack of good shared hacker/working spaces. The
nearest one is miles from where I live, not convenient to get to via public
transportation and expensive. Meanwhile, Starbucks is a short walk down the
street for $1.50 per cup of drip coffee. The demand is there, but the supply
isn't. Starbucks fills that niche.

~~~
acabal
Definitely. Even when coworking spaces exist they're typically pretty
expensive for what you get--which is usually just a desk, fast internet, and
maybe free coffee. Bring the price down a little, or offer daily passes for
$10-$20 (even that's pretty high considering you're competing with a $3 latte
all-day-pass at Starbucks).

Alternatively I always suggest to people that they work at their local
library. The Chicago suburbs for example have a superb library system, and
nowadays you can even bring in closed drinks at some of them. Internet is
fast, it's quiet by definition, and there's usually a fine amount of human
activity around to keep you from feeling like you're alone in an office
building.

~~~
bluedino
> it's quiet by definition

The library is too quiet for some. Some background noise helps.

------
Articulate
I liked the article as it recognizes that you can't just freeload on space.
One thing I would suggest that you consider is the idea of karma. As a writer
there are a lot of people that want to use your writing without paying, and in
many ways they probably can. You can engage in a type of "paying it forward"
particularly if you are working at a locally owned coffee shop. It will be
hard to create hard rules- a lot of it is going to be karma.

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yurylifshits
In Russia we have a new type of coffee shops:

    
    
        drinks and cookies are free
        you pay for you time, 0.03$ per minute
    

We've got around 300 of these new "free spaces" opened in 2012.

Ziferblat (<http://clockfacer.ru/>) has opened 9 locations and is growing like
crazy. A new Starbucks in the making.

~~~
snogglethorpe
Neat.

Manga "cafes" in Japan often use a similar model, where you pay per hour and
there's a range of free drinks/snacks (plus more substantial food you can pay
extra for), and of course you can read all their manga while you're there, or
pay an extra fee to use a computer. Most have a very different vibe though,
with an overtly less "social" atmosphere (more like a library); a similar
model in a more traditional cafe setting sounds very appealing.

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maxk42
Here's the rule: Buy a drink when you walk in. Then don't worry about it as
long as tables are free. Because you're not displacing any customers. Once you
glance around and notice the place is getting kinda crowded, walk up and buy
another drink if yours is empty. That way you're not costing them any
business.

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simmons
I've often thought about this as well, but I don't really want to keep buying
drinks and snacks and load up on the calories. (And I can only drink so many
low-calorie plain coffees without shaking...) There should be a way of paying
shops for my use of the table space. Then everybody is happy and I don't gain
weight. Maybe that would break the "folksy ambiance" for their other
customers, though...

~~~
dasil003
Buy bottled water. And tip generously with every drink.

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mullethunter
I hack at a local coffeeshop about once a week. My favorite place has an in-
house special that's a cup and refill for $2. Since I drink too much coffee I
take them up on that about every couple of hours. 4 hours = 8 12oz cups for
$8. But I always buy a pastry or bagel when I start which is another $3.50.
Also...I tip them. I make sure they know that I'm tipping as to not get "the
glare" and so for my 4 hours and $11.50 I'll tip about $5. It's also because I
know it's a business and I'm taking up space. $16.50 gets me a great spot to
code and wifi that isn't my house with the kids running around

I think that the tipping is what's overlooked. Unless your barista owns the
place, they just want tables available for other people and to make some
money...that's the point of a job right? So tip them, let them know you're
tipping because you appreciate the use of the their space and that's that.

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noblethrasher
Last time we discussed this topic, our own tptacek made a good argument for
using your local library instead of defaulting to the coffee shop.

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3607784>

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scottshea
For me also I take into consideration how much the server has to do for me.
For instance if they give free refills and have to come around to my table for
it, or even just stand behind the bar and refill when I come up, I will leave
an additional tip for them

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AYBABTME
My gauge is:

    
    
       - If I'm there at meal time, I order a meal (8-12-18-22h).
       - If I stick around in between meal time, I buy a higher-end coffee (>4$) in between.
    

For every purchase, give max(15%, 1$) in tip.

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vinceguidry
The local coffee shop I frequent encourages the regulars to stay as long as
they want, no "drink minimum" or anything. Having lots of people sitting
around is good for business. They've gone out of their way to put in power
outlets and benches/tables. There's even one out on the deck we can use if we
want.

They keep the music kinda loud also to encourage a lively atmosphere. It has a
real community feel to it. I can trace probably 80% of the money I've made in
the last eight years to connections I've made here.

~~~
snogglethorpe
I presume this strongly depends on the location -- a slightly marginal
location where the natural state is not particularly crowded would have a
strong incentive to pull in more customers, even campers, to give it a vibe of
"the place to be." Such locations probably have lower rents as well, and can
afford larger spaces.

However places in prime locations and densely populated neighborhoods can be
packed 95% of the time, _whatever_ they do. For them, the tradeoffs are very
different...

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jere
I think this is worth figuring out for your local shop. But Starbucks!?
Perhaps I'm the only one who doesn't think our top priority should be having
more empathy for a billion dollar company.

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jonathanjaeger
There's a Starbucks in NYC where there's often a guy with a Mac laptop wrapped
in newspaper and a line of empty drinks on his table and beside the window. I
wonder how much he spends per year and how much time he spends at that
Starbucks. Then I want to see what he's working on and how much Starbucks
money he could have used for an actual office (though I doubt he wants one).

~~~
preinheimer
I remember that guy!

I also want to know what he's up to.

~~~
jonathanjaeger
Haha, did you see him at the Starbucks on Delancey St. in the Lower East Side?
Or does he hop around?

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teliskr
Baristas and coffee shop owners use plenty of free services on the web, so
let's just think of it as a symbiotic relationship.

~~~
danpalmer
If this was the joke I think it was, nice one.

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cmars
One strong drink is enough for me, so I just tip 100% at the local place where
I regularly camp -- whether I'm camping or picking up a drink. If your coffee
shop is near a university, bring your regular barista something nice, some
food, etc. during finals. He or she is probably pulling doubles. This is
coming up soon...

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drorweiss
My simple rules when working from coffee shops: 1\. Don't take up space when
the place is full (when the place is empty they should like to have you in)
2\. Order reasonably - not just one coffee for 2 hours. Get at least 3 items
for a few hours session, preferably also food 3\. Be nice and over generous
with tips

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StavrosK
Can someone explain to me why you prefer working in a crowded, noisy cafe
rather than in the comfort of your own home/the park/some other comfortable
venue?

Whenever I went to Starbucks, the chairs were barely comfortable enough to sit
on for ten minutes, there's no way I could sit there for hours.

~~~
keiferski
Different people like different work environments. No surprise here.

I like a gentle din of noise in the background, and I like the occasional chat
with a barista or other patron. Sitting at home is quiet and lonely.

~~~
StavrosK
Ah, I guess it's the different culture, then. In Greece, we consider talking
to strangers intruding. Not that it's impolite or anything, people just don't
do it much.

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ArikBe
Here in Amsterdam, NL the CoffeeCompany stores allow up to one hour of WiFi
access per receipt. So you get a drink, the receipt contains a wifi password
that will last you one hour. Need more? Get another drink.

...or grab a receipt someone left at your table. I've seen this happen.

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zwieback
I think your estimates are about right and you've just earned yourself a free
hour by writing a thoughtful post.

