
Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prevent disease spread - tekdude
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/04/health/coronavirus-office-makeover.html
======
danielrpa
The best way to prevent spreading diseases at the office is to not require
your employees to go to the office - assuming WFH is compatible with the
company's business.

I work at a FAANG company which was aggressively opposed to WFH before the
covid-19 crisis. As matter of fact, I recently changed teams within said
company and during the informational interview I asked about the team's policy
on WFH - the answer was that "our team has a strong 'collaborative in-the-
office' culture, so we don't encourage WFH"

I am not kidding, we're talking about one of the most advanced companies in
history and they required domestic travel+hotel for trivial half-day, mostly
passive interview training that could have been done _easily_ over
teleconference, that's how much this company values physical presence.

Fast forward a few months, everybody is WFH in the company and the sky hasn't
fallen. Actually, my productivity vastly increased because I'm fortunate to
have a solid WFH environment at home (despite kids/wife around).

While I'm not proposing mandatory WFH for tech companies, neither saying that
it works for everybody, I believe our top companies could lead and finally
allow people who demonstrate that they can be productive at home to just stay
home - permanently.

~~~
wdn
This is a problem with incompetent managers. They failed to understand the
different between productivity and sitting.

Last company I worked for, the CEO said to me he doesn't care where anyone
work as long as the work get done well. However, this was not the case with my
own manager. He micro managed everything. He had an office manager sitting
with the engineers reporting to him multiple times a day on if the engineers
were sitting on the desk. You can feel you are being watch the moment you step
into the office. It was an absolute shit place to work for.

~~~
folkhack
> He micro managed everything. He had an office manager sitting with the
> engineers reporting to him multiple times a day on if the engineers were
> sitting on the desk.

I _really_ related to this in my last role. It's the butts-in-chairs method vs
output because let's be real... most of the people promoted to middle-
management can't measure actual output.

I've always been on the edge of being a manager vs. being IC and the times
I've bled over into management I have this style: you're expected to be here
early by 30 minutes for meetings, and if you wanna leave directly after to go
work from your home office I could care less. I expect workers to be highly
available via chat and phone during normal business hours (adjusted to the
timezone), and generally flexible if something comes up where I need 'em in
the mothership.

To measure output and success, whelp I just get on the corporate GitLab and
read everyone's commits daily. Not only do I learn a TON working with solid
talent... I also know who's jerkin' me around. Does this work for every WFH-
type employee? Nope. Managing devs gives you a ton of black-and-white paper
trails to ensure people are working the right direction.

In contrast, throughout my IC career none of my managers have managed ME this
way which blows my mind. I know I'm not the most talented leader but I don't
understand why dev management doesn't look at real metrics to gauge success
outside of "I don't know how to read code"... =|

The way I managed also bought loyalty... like _a lot_ of loyalty. When you get
out of the way of people's lives and say, "I'm willing to make this career
work with you as a person" you get an insane amount of forgiveness for being a
poop manager in other areas.

Did people take advantage of me giving them this slack? Yep. Did I fire 'em
for poor output? Yep - at will state sucka. IMO you'll get people taking
advantage of the system regardless of how you wanna lead so the best way to
hedge that risk is looking at metrics + engaging consistently with your team.
Bad apples tend to stick out in a few months and you just gotta learn to fire
fast to maintain the integrity of the team vs pumping your staff numbers.

~~~
james-mcelwain
I've often been tempted to show my less-technical manager our commit log, but
have always avoided it because I can't see any way it wouldn't turn into some
stupid game about commits and lines of code changed.

~~~
folkhack
I'd say about 70-80% of managers I've had couldn't build or work on the
product that they're tasked with managing. And... I resent that.

The truth is you need near-100% understanding of the code going into the
product to really gauge someone's participation accurately. Looking at LOC, #
of commits, etc. is all fluid so while they describe properties of the story,
they're not the actual story itself.

Also, there's up and down weeks. I've watched my top performers have poop
weeks where they've only been able to crank out a couple of small features, or
maybe just resolved one issue, etc. I feel like if micro-managers saw this
they'd put the hurt on em... for me it literally never came up because within
1-2 weeks they'd be back on the rails. I was always like "huh - musta been
some human stuff." Or, heck... sometimes I could tell they just moved a bit
slower on more mundane tasks. When I put myself in a position to relate to
that I find that I have the same lulls, lack of motivation for mundane work,
etc.

People NOT getting back on the rails after 1-2 weeks of meh was the exception!
I also felt like I could demand more of my team during the 2-3 crank-it-out
periods that inevitably occurred throughout the year because I had respected
their time leading up to that... IDK.

All-in-all if specs were being respected, code was clean/reasonably PR'd,
deadlines were hit, and meetings were well prep'd for + attended I felt that
we were being successful.

~~~
crankylinuxuser
Wasnt there a story about a graybeard who, upon being turned into a gamafied
LOC programmer, ended up changing 2 lines and removing 2000?

He put -1998 lines on his daily email?

And I think that hits to the core of Goodhart's law:

""When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.""

~~~
Moto7451
You might be thinking of
[https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Li...](https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt)

~~~
crankylinuxuser
Indeed! That's it :)

Thank you for finding it.

------
joncrane
My, how the pendulum swings!

I'm firmly in the camp of hating open office plans. My first job out of
college making $50k per year in Washington DC, I had my own office.

It was all downhill from there.

In my career (I'm 45 now), there is literally a direct negative correlation
between how much money I make and the quality of my office surroundings
(specifically, the privacy and quiet all go down as my pay goes up).

I used to rail against it but I figured that's how the world works and always
insisted on enough money to make up for the crappy office space.

I would be THRILLED if COVID reverses this (IMO) awful trend.

However, I do not have my hopes up.

~~~
7thaccount
Open floor plans make concentration nearly impossible. Headphones and music is
a must. It's also deeply unsettling to have people walking behind you 24/7\. I
think human evolution makes you not happy about this.

A coworker of mine left for a company where all employees have offices and
according to him the gain in productivity was wild.

~~~
russfink
Having intentional collaborative workspaces, while maintaining private space
for concentration or just personal retreat, is optimal. Forced collaboration
is suboptimal.

~~~
gvjddbnvdrbv
Private officies are perfect for collaboration. There is no need to schedule
meeting rooms. Just talk in your office.

~~~
ghaff
Yes. I worked at a company for many years that was offices (mostly for
managers) and cubicles. Collaboration was fine. Culture was open door unless
you specifically didn't want to be disturbed/overheard for some reason. I
imagine it's different at other places but private office shouldn't be equated
to private office with always shut door.

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ashtonkem
Now this is interesting.

All of the reasons provided for open plan offices have been disingenuous; the
reason why open plan offices are a thing is that it drastically lowers the
land cost per employee. This is why they were popularized in NYC and SF; two
cities with famously high land costs.

But of course, abandoning the open plan office is expensive. Companies will
need more space, driving up the cost per employee. One can’t help but wonder
if this’ll push for more permanently remote positions.

~~~
swebs
If that were the only reason, then cubicles would be equally popular. For some
reason companies want floor plans that do not allow your back to the wall, no
partitions higher than sitting shoulder level, minimal sound or sight blocks.
I think there must be some psychological effect they're taking advantage of
when workers feel like they're being constantly watched from all angles.

~~~
kingbirdy
Open office seems to me to be even more space-efficient than cubicles. In an
open office, I have 2-4 coworkers within arms reach. In a cubicle, everyone at
least has a few feet of "bubble" in their cube.

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simiones
I'm always amazed that in discussions about offices vs open floor plans there
is no mention of sunlight. To me offices buildings are always associated with
24h fluorescent-only lights for all but the best offices (usually top
managers/senior engineers), whereas most open offices have ample sunlight,
regardless of whether you have a sit by the window or are working in the
center.

Not to say that there aren't all sorts of disadvantages to open offices, but I
still feel sunlight counts for a lot.

~~~
samkater
I would echo the sibling comment (save_ferris) that in many places open
offices do not encourage sunlight - especially those places where the offices
are on the outer perimeter (capturing the sunlight) and the interior is stuck
with fluorescent lighting (a previous experience of mine).

To add to your sunlight comment, though, is I also rarely, if ever, see notes
about ventilation. Converting an open-space office into a private-space office
(or potentially even cubicles) is non-trivial as far as ventilation is
concerned. Not that I think it is an excuse for an open office, but it isn't
as simple as throwing up some temporary walls in an open space.

Do I believe it is worth it? yes. Would most places see the work required and
want to deal with the hassle of coordinating everything with the building
owner to get the work done? probably not.

------
lm28469
Unless you have self washing surfaces, filtered air systems and a single
office for each of the employees I don't see how this would help for something
like the current virus. They're all most likely going to eat in the same
areas, use the same bathrooms, doors, elevators, meeting rooms, use public
transports to come to the office, &c.

You know what's a good way to prevent disease spread ? Paid sick leaves

~~~
trynewideas
9th paragraph:

> Other research shows that one of the best ways to reduce transmission in the
> workplace is to provide paid sick leave that encourages ill employees to
> stay home.

------
m3kw9
Even without COVID-19 sickness gets passed around like crazy in open layouts

~~~
ken
Yes but that's not their concern. It never was. We can now clearly see what
the threshold is for management making such decisions. Workers complaining of
work conditions? Research showing decreased productivity? Nope. Not going to
do anything until there's live video on the 5 o'clock news showing body bags
being loaded onto refrigerator trucks.

The saying goes, "Safety regulations are written in blood". This is one of the
many reasons unions are useful even if you make a great salary. It gives you
someone on site whose job is to look out for you, and it gives you a lever
with which to institute necessary workplace changes.

------
chadlavi
It's amazing that it takes a deadly global pandemic for companies to finally
abandon this very poor organizational tactic, not years of reduced
productivity, increased worker stress, and (in environments where it wouldn't
endanger workers' careers) constant complaints.

~~~
folkhack
It was never about productivity or the worker. It's a well studied thing that
there's a steep drop in productivity when moving from closed-offices to open
plans.

I think it's a foggy cloud of reasons this came to be such a fad, from cost
savings in floorspace/etc., to managers wanting to micro-manage butts-in-
chairs, to the cargo-cult-esque promotion of it, etc.

In America, color me "not surprised" that it takes something outstanding like
COVID to move the needle in the corporate sector.

------
acd
Open Office space never was smart except for saving rent. Open Office space
causes more distractions lower productivity and less cooperation. Diseases
spread more easily too.

The only good thing I can think of is startups where costs needs to be saved.

~~~
renewiltord
We call it Libre Office now, by the way ;)

To be honest, I think the true innovation is WFH. Bypass all these things and
make a full-mixed city where folks can work without commuting and walk to
their diner spots and everything. It's what they made the future look like in
sci-fi. I can't wait.

Combine that with my personally highest desired innovation: work times. In
California, the most beautiful time of day is right now morning to noon, and
afternoon to evening. I want to be out. Fortunately, I _can_ be, but so many
people are missing out on this.

With WFH will come a competitive advantage - the worktime shift. And we will
live our best lives.

~~~
sersi
And this right here is why I've been working remotely with american companies
while living in Asia. I can go, take advantage of the beautiful weather in the
afternoon and hike or feel refreshed, then get to work until the middle of the
night.

------
weinzierl
> Some companies have begun mentioning a return to one of history’s more
> derided office-design concepts: the cubicle. There is talk also of the
> cubicle’s see-through cousin, known as the sneeze guard.

So we will replace open office layouts with transparent single person
cubicles.

~~~
grishka
Why does it _have_ to be see-through, though? So the worst thing about open
spaces — absolute lack of privacy — stays?

~~~
trhway
With see-through it is possible to increase density without it being obvious
coffins. Instead - behold the cozy aquariums. So, yes it stays.

Anybody thinking/celebrating that we'll get less density because of covid are
dreaming a nice dream:)

------
spacephysics
I much prefer having a private area to work efficiently without distraction
(rather minimal distraction) vs a large shared desk where the weakest
attention-span “link” at the table would take everyone off task frequently.

------
hedora
Any company large enough to track software engineer productivity is seeing an
uptick in output.

If you’re keeping score: open floor plans are quantifiably worse for
productivity than global pandemics.

I miss my office. It had a couch and a door.

~~~
castratikron
Very persuasive to use your manager's own metrics (sprint velocity, etc.) to
show that you're more productive WFH.

------
kortex
We have a pretty optimal layout, imho. We have several "pods" which are an
open 30'x30'x14' room that opens to the main corridor, which get divided into
up to 7 cubes via 7' dividers (very modern and colorful, not the vertical
carpets of yore). The center usually has whiteboards and chairs for collabs.

So you get interaction with coworkers, but can bury yourself in work readily
(also everyone has noise cancelling headphones).

Kinda miss it, it's way nicer than my home office.

There's definitely way less structure now and I am suffering for it.

~~~
beager
That sounds relatively fantastic. I interviewed with a few larger companies
many years ago that had a similar thing. Each "pod" (or scrum team, or what
have you) had an office with a door that closed, semi-private cubes within,
their own collaboration space, and autonomy over much of their environment.

Interestingly, all of these companies ran outmoded spec and dev waterfall
processes. And every truly agile place I've worked at or experienced has been
everyone in an open room on each other's nerves. Weird correlation!

------
sequoia
Why companies have open floor plan offices:

    
    
        * Reasons 1-9: it costs A LOT LESS than offices or cubes
        * Reason 10: Collaboration :)

------
LatteLazy
Better turn off the air con too.

~~~
Vrondi
I truly do not miss the HVAC at work, where the thermostat is controlled by a
company in another city, and I have to layer up in winter clothes all summer,
some of us wear coats and gloves at our desks in the summer, and then randomly
the entire system dies, leaving us to suddenly roast in a building where none
of the windows can be opened. Sometimes my supervisor has to leave her
painfully frigidly cold office and go stand in the restroom (always far too
warm) for a few minutes in order to thaw out.

~~~
mnm1
And in the winter, 80F+ degrees, making sure to weaken the already weak
systems people have in winter and ensuring that people get sick. The one job
like that, I quit after two weeks, but not before getting the worst flu I've
ever had as an adult. I'm sure this will work out wonderfully this winter with
coronavirus.

Frankly, companies asking employees that can wfh to return before a vaccine or
cure exists are nothing short of committing murder. I doubt anyone will stop
them though. I've never had a job I was willing to die for and I'm certain I
never will. Better fired on unemployment than dead.

------
riyakhanna1983
A friend of mine has furnished his garage, and is renting it out as a private
working space in his neighborhood.

------
titzer
Open office plans are so disrespectful of employees. It was always a brazen
move to save money on commercial real estate. Not being able to poop because
your building is overcrowded was maddening to the point that I contemplated
revolt.

------
siruncledrew
Funny... for all the points against open office layouts that have been
previously raised (and ignored), now it’s infectious disease that has finally
struck a cord against the office paradigm.

(“Funny” in a cynical sense).

------
takanori
There is no mention of the elevator. Until they solve this the open/closed
floor isn’t going to matter.

------
kyuudou
Wow, if there was one good takeaway from this whole COVID-19 mess, getting rid
of open office layouts would be grand.

Or at least having a hybrid of small pods of teams and a few larger meeting
areas for less frequent, larger meetings. When not working remote.

------
ck2
Are you in the same closed air-circulation? Is someone sick even without
symptoms?

Well now someone else is sick. And they are going to get the next person sick.

Virus doesn't care what your office plan is, you are all in the same
circulating air.

------
efiecho
I have seen movies from the 80's were each private office had a bathroom and
often wondered if that was a real thing. Anyone who have worked a place with
both a private office and bathroom?

~~~
EForEndeavour
Technically, I'm entering my ninth week of working at a place like this. It
has its ups and downs, but overall I'm liking it.

~~~
efiecho
Ha, didn't think of that, the same for me then. Not as much cocaine in mine as
I had expected though.

------
fullshark
I hate open offices, but i think those aquariums might be even worse.

------
cletus
So I was last in the office in early March. First it was a week of recommended
WFH followed by a predictable shift to mandatory WFH but I'd already decided
that NYC was not the place where I wanted to be when this all played out so I
exiled myself.

I honestly don't know what going back to the office looks like at this point,
both in timing and the logistics. The fact of the matter is that we have open
plan layouts with minimal space per employee (basically a desk plus chair)
because of cost. An office per employee simply doesn't scale for the size of
the big tech companies if they want to have offices in coastal urban areas.

I haven't run the numbers on this but I'd guess it averages out at about 60sq
ft per employee in the desk area and probably twice that once you factor in
all the meeting rooms. It may even be as high as 150sq ft.

As an example since there are public numbers on this, Google's building on 111
8th Ave is, I believe, 2.1 million square feet of rentable space divided over
16 floors. Higher floors have smaller footprints so for the lower floors
that's probably around 160,000 sq ft. I don't know the number of employees per
floor but I believe it's around 1500 give or take so this would fit the
estimate of 120-150sq ft per employee.

Google bought that building for $1.9B. It's probably appreciated some since
then but probably not hugely, being commercial. Let's say it's $3B. That's a
value of $1400/sq ft. Assume an 8% gross yield then 140sq ft of space costs
~$2M and has an opportunity cost of almost $160,000.

Doubling that space gets real expensive. Even if you're prepared to pay it,
having room for the ~8000 employees you have gets impractical. 111 8th Ave is
already one of the largest buildings in NYC (by rentable square feet). Google
have already overflown to Chelsea Market and 85 10th Ave and probably more by
now (I left ~3 years ago).

Social distancing is going to be a thing for the foreseeable future. People
have this weirdly optimistic view that we can just develop a vaccine or an
effective treatment for this. There are many diseases that have killed
millions and been around for decades that still have no vaccine (eg HIV,
malaria, dengue fever).

In fact, no coronavirus to date has had a vaccine developed for it.

It's unclear what will happen with Covid-19. will it mutate and become
something you seasonally just "get" like the flu? We have flu vaccines but
they're partially effective and the virus mutates such that you need a
different vaccine every year.

Generally speaking, viruses tend to get less deadly over time (eg Spanish flu
evolved into H1N1 eventually) but it doesn't seem like Covid-19 is
particularly deadly now. You might point to the number of deaths in each
country but the number of infections in almost all cases is underreported.
Some don't even realize they've had it.

Or will herd immunity kick in at some point?

But I look at all this and wonder if I'll get back into the office _this
year_.

Even when I do, I just don't think more space or private offices are in my
future. I also don't foresee a WFH revolution. So it's going to be interesting
to see how this plays out.

~~~
ken
> The fact of the matter is that we have open plan layouts with minimal space
> per employee (basically a desk plus chair) because of cost.

This claim is repeated in every HN post about open floor plans. I'm sure there
are some cases where it's true (Manhattan!), but in every case where a manager
forced _me_ into an open plan layout, I pushed back, and they admitted it
wasn't really about the money.

~~~
ashtonkem
Open plan offices started for cost reasons in areas with very high land cost,
largely NYC and SF. However it was never stated as a cost cutting measure,
instead it was dressed up as a “collaboration” tool. Of course since SF and
NYC sets trends, tons of other companies have been cargo culting this layout,
since that’s how google does it.

Also, most managers don’t actually know what their facility space costs. I
don’t.

~~~
morei
This. The vast majority of line managers are very, very far removed from
actual costs (and often, actual driving reasons too!).

Talk to an actual office space fit-out specialist to get real numbers. They'll
tell you that individual offices are much more expensive than cubes.

------
buboard
consider?

------
SlipperySlope
Use UV-C air cleaners to kill all airborne virus and bacteria in each closed
office. Very inexpensive. Look for HEPA air cleaners.

Conference rooms, and lunchrooms can have a personal UV-C air cleaner quietly
blowing sterile air at each face.

Closed offices are healthier and much more productive. Employees deserve the
increased floor space cost - especially outside urban cores.

