
Customer: Apple Store denied me iPad for speaking Farsi - ghurlman
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/customer-apple-store-denied-me-ipad-speaking-farsi/nPY4p/
======
jcromartie
> "Discrimination. Racially profiled. He didn't have any business asking me
> what country I was from"

Actually, if it would be illegal to sell the technology to an Iranian, and
you're speaking the official language of Iran, then it would make a lot of
sense for them to ask you if you're an Iranian citizen. Clearly the manager
misunderstood and misapplied the policy, but this is not "racial profiling".
It's linguistic profiling, and it's the only reasonable way to enforce the
export law.

~~~
MartinCron
_the only reasonable way to enforce the export law_

That's sort of stretching the bounds of the word "reasonable" :)

The law here seems to be over-broad. Retailers should be able to sell to
anyone in their stores and not be held responsible for what someone may or may
not do with it once it leaves their store.

Alternatively, I guess they could do ID and background checks, handgun-
shopping style.

~~~
lutorm
What they do with it once it leaves is not the concern. The mere sale of
export-controlled material to a foreign person is prohibited. It doesn't
matter what they would do with it, because it's the transfer of technology to
them that is prohibited.

You should think of this law in the same way as the fact that you can't offer
someone a job without verifying their legal work status. It's not "profiling",
because it _is_ your responsibility to ascertain that you are not breaking the
law. You should positively verify this with everyone.

The problem is that the law is being applied to completely mainstream consumer
items, not ballistic missile technology or something.

~~~
marshray
> The mere sale of export-controlled material to a foreign person is
> prohibited.

Let me get this straight.. you're saying if an Iranian, a Cuban, or a Libyan
person walks into Walmart and buys a $300 Windows PC with Bitlocker on it,
that Walmart has committed a Federal crime?

That's insane.

~~~
MartinCron
Not only that, but it appears to be a federal crime that the individual teller
is guilty of, and possibly subject to jail time.

Makes me glad I don't work in retail.

~~~
beedogs
Makes me glad I don't live in the US anymore.

------
rubyrescue
I think this is a new apple policy. I called 1-800-MY-APPLE from Argentina and
mentioned that I might want to buy an iPad and have it shipped somewhere in
the US (but that I happened to live down in BA). The guy said he couldn't sell
it to me and that I should hang up and call back and not mention where I live.
This happened last week.

~~~
janus
Just buy it from the Apple store and their website and it should work ok

------
joelhaasnoot
Who on earth decided that when a foreign citizen is on US soil, selling to
them consitutes "exporting"? What if he's a refugee or has dual citizenships?

To me, this mostly sounds like Apple taking US laws too literal/general.

~~~
pash
_> To me, this mostly sounds like Apple taking US laws too literal/general._

Unfortunately not. The relevant definition of "export" is the one at Export
Administration Regulations § 734.2(b)(2)(ii):

    
    
      (2) Export of technology or software. ...:
        (i)  Any release of technology or software subject to the EAR in a foreign
             country; or
        (ii) Any release of technology or source code subject to the EAR to a foreign
             national. Such release is deemed to be an export to the home country or
             countries of the foreign national. This deemed export rule does not apply to
             persons lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States and
             does not apply to persons who are protected individuals under the Immigration
             and Naturalization Act (8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3)). Note that the release of any
             item to any party with knowledge a violation is about to occur is prohibited
             by §736.2(b)(10) of the EAR. [0]
    

Apple's interpretation is the one almost all export-control lawyers will give
their clients and is the one the Bureau of Industry and Security will give you
if you ask for clarification.

EDIT: By the way, the reason Apple won't/can't sell iPads to foreigners in the
US but can sell them the same product abroad likely comes down to paperwork. I
am not Apple's lawyer, but I imagine Apple exports iPads under a provision of
the export-control regulations that allows export of (a great many) controlled
products without needing to obtain a license so long as the use of the
regulatory licensing exception is properly noted on the export documentation.
But Apple's retail stores presumably are not equipped to fill out and submit
those documents, so they simply won't/can't sell to foreigners.

0\. <http://www.bis.doc.gov/policiesandregulations/ear/734.pdf> [PDF]

~~~
joelhaasnoot
Smartest legislation ever... (NOT) Any sane person will tell you that there's
no way to police or check it. If I buy an iPad (as a Dutch citizen in the US
or in the Netherlands) and happen to sell my iPad to a North Korean or
Iranian, what's the US government going to do?

~~~
lutorm
Having just had to go through ITAR training for my new job, it is my
impression that a) it is your responsibility to make sure you comply with the
law, which means knowing what is export-controlled and who you are dealing
with, and b) export control violations are punishable by at least a decade in
federal prison, if you should be so unlucky.

------
raffi
As someone who just retained legal help in this area, export control is not as
simple as many of you make it out to be. An export happens when material ends
up in the hands of a foreign national, whether it's inside the border or not.
Businesses have an obligation to "know their customer" and look out for "red
flags". I'm not an expert in this area. It's just as I have had to delve into
it, it's nowhere near trivial or as easy to deal with as you might think. Oh
and the fines for being wrong (even if you self report) can be very very
hefty.

~~~
Quizzy
The "fines for being wrong" can also include lawsuits when you inappropriately
reject a customer because what your salesperson thought was Farsi turns out to
be some Indian dialect because he's simply bad at recognizing languages and
was recently reprimanded for his failure to recognize Farsi, so now he's more
likely to commit a false positive due to paranoia. Good luck with that
lawsuit.

~~~
TwiztidK
In this case:

Woman: (Speaks Farsi)

Apple: Excuse me, but which language were you speaking?

Woman: "Farsi, I'm from Iran." (Direct quote)

Huh, it is pretty ambiguous where she is from.

~~~
marshray
Except for the fact that she is a US citizen.

------
EGreg
What is the point of this? The person can just call back or send someone else
to buy the phone. Or refuse to answer where they are from.

If you really want to enforce something like this, REQUIRE a valid passport.
If they produce an Iranian one, then don't sell it. That would be better than
penalizing people for speaking a language. Especially since they can call
back.

I guess Apple is covering its ass, but the law sounds like it wouldn't be
possible to perfectly enforce. Maybe it is just there to crack down on what
would otherwise be Iranian citizens being won over by shiny goodness "evil"
American corporations :)

Apple products arrive in Iran. Iranians start using shiny iPhones and iPads.
The app store has plenty of family friendly goodies. Before they know it, they
are playing angry birds and they love american stuff. Then, someone releases a
"how to build green energy" app in Iran. Iran develops green sources of energy
and abandons nuclear energy program. Affirms nuclear non proliferation treaty.
US rejoices.

LOL

~~~
DrMfloss
they should just ask everyone are you going to take this to one of the
restricted countries? Yes or NO

THE END

~~~
beedogs
Or they could stop pretending an iPhone is some sort of weaponizable
supercomputer.

------
eshvk
I am confused: Is the act of selling something that has export controls to an
alien national in American soil equivalent to an export?

~~~
waterlesscloud
Yes. It seems this falls under "deemed export" concept, where controlled
technology is "deemed" to be exported just by a foreign national having
contact with it.

<http://www.ailf.org/lac/pa/lac_pa_071703.pdf>

"Once such information is released to a foreign national, it is deemed to have
been exported to that person’s country of nationality. Under both the EAR and
the ITAR, the deemed export rule applies to technology (and, in some cases,
software) transfers to a foreign national, if the technology (or software) to
which the foreign national is exposed relates to the development, production,
disposal, or use of items controlled under either the EAR or the ITAR. "

Now, whether this applies to ipads and iphones, I have no idea.

~~~
eshvk
If that does apply to electronics like the iPad/iPhone, it is pretty retarded.
It requires a significant degree of knowledge of citizenship law on the part
of the sales personnel. Also, it is pretty hard to verify citizenship without
getting into same breach of privacy that the Arizona law (SB1070) fell into.
Lastly, how are you as a merchant supposed to enforce such controls in an
electronic transaction?

~~~
lutorm
I _think_ that what the US government would say is that if you choose to sell
export-controlled technologies, then _it is your responsibility to follow the
law_. If you can't verify that you are following the law in an electronic
transaction, then you either have to take the risk of getting convicted or not
sell online.

The bizarre part here is that an ipad falls under export-controlled equipment.

~~~
waterlesscloud
The only way I can mentally justify something like an ipad falling under the
law would be if the point was to keep the Iranian government from legally
buying 10000 of them to make some kind of supercomputer. Which seems pretty
unlikely as I type it out.

But under than scenario, a few escaping here and there is tolerable, but it
would be worth preventing massive numbers of them being sold to a foreign
nation.

Of course, since the devices are manufactured in China, there are a few
questions being begged.

~~~
eshvk
> The only way I can mentally justify something like an ipad falling under the
> law would be if the point was to keep the Iranian government from legally
> buying 10000 of them to make some kind of supercomputer. Which seems pretty
> unlikely as I type it out.

I think the way these laws are designed, they cover a swathe of computing
devices that could potentially be used to aid the military. IIRC around 10
years back, when India and Pakistan decided to test nukes, the apple G5 was
one of the things that got banned from export to those countries.

> But under than scenario, a few escaping here and there is tolerable, but it
> would be worth preventing massive numbers of them being sold to a foreign
> nation.

The key of course is how lenient DHS or whoever would be in this situation. If
the act of coming into contact with an iPad/Any such device is an export
control violation, how on earth does one hire Iranian citizens in tech (I know
a large number of Iranian citizens come here to the US to study and work) for
say iPad app development. Also, what happens in the situation that I want to
sell my used iPad on eBay/CL?

~~~
Aleppo_Redditor
"how on earth does one hire Iranian citizens" You can't hire anyone from an
embargoed country without obtaining a deemed export from the government which
is a very lengthy and complicated process. I'm from an embargoed country and I
recently lost job offer in a big semiconductor company because of the deemed
export requirement. To avoid any export control liability, some tech companies
prescreen applicants before extending interview invitations. If you google,
there are a couple of articles where lawyers advise companies to prescreen
based on country of origin, arguing that it doesn't violate anti-
discrimination laws.

------
pdeuchler
Just an idiot that's part of a large corporation wrongly trying to enforce a
policy that doesn't apply (and is probably not his to enforce). It is clearly
not Apple's true policy, as the woman in question was eventually able to
purchase her iPad online.

Regardless of the calculus behind the employee's decision, I can't help but
wonder if this story would be on the frontpage if it was anyone but Apple.

~~~
kevinpet
How does the policy not apply? Is Apple being irrational, or is Apple making
their best effort to thread the needle between stupid laws?

~~~
pdeuchler
Because the women were U.S. citizens, rendering any law about foreign exports
(and consequently foreign nationals) moot

------
pooriaazimi
_The U.S. holds complete embargoes against Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, and
Syria_

 _The exportation, reexportation, sale or supply, directly or indirectly, from
the United States, or by a U.S. person wherever located, of any Apple goods,
software, technology (including technical data), or services to any of these
countries is strictly prohibited without prior authorization by the U.S.
Government. This prohibition also applies to any Apple owned subsidiary or any
subsidiary employee worldwide._

So that's why they always _completely_ ignore my bug reports :)

------
jevinskie
These crypto export laws (while better than they were in the 90s) are silly
given that crypto approved for top secret material (AES with large keys) is
pervasively available on the internet.

~~~
tikhonj
I think this isn't about exporting cryptographic software so much as about not
trading with certain countries (e.g. Iran, Cuba or North Korea) at all.

------
lightyrs
The real story here is the U.S. law — I'm a citizen and I must say, this is
shameful. This read like a really bad Onion article.

~~~
lightyrs
The idea that Iran is a real threat to the United States and its allies is an
Oceania-esque farce. Our country is in an economic war with China, being
fought via proxy economic and media battles with Iran and its allies. This law
is disgraceful.

------
DrMfloss
What apple did wrong is that thy judged a person’s Intentions and residency by
a spoken language. Iranian people are proud people just like Irish, Italians,
and Cuban’s. I have many friends that were born in U.S but if you ask them
what language you are speaking they will tell you “oh it’s Spanish, I am
Cuban” because they are proud of their nationality. Same thing with the girl,
the man asked what language she was speaking and she said Farsi (but most
people do not know what language Farsi is) so she added I am from Iran. This
girl could have even been born in the U.S. The Correct way to approach this
would have ben to ask more questions. Like how long have you lived in the
U.S.? are you Planning on going back anytime in the future? As a matter of
fact they should ask everyone this question. Are they planning to Travel to
any of the restricted countries in the near future? Because anyone can be
shipping this highly sensitive material overseas to anyone of the restricted
countries.

~~~
scott_meade
"What apple did wrong is that thy judged a person’s Intentions and residency
by a spoken language." That sure is how the article makes it seem. And that
sure would be wrong of Apple.

Yet the customer was planning to send the iPad to Iran and I wonder if that
intention didn't some how come out in conversation such that the Apple
employee knew of that intention? It would be interesting to have more details
and it's difficult to tell when we have only the customer's recollection of
events. It will be interesting to hear Apple's response.

------
Splines
Export laws seem like security theater - it doesn't actually help, and only
catches honest people.

If you're from a country that is embargoed, and you need computing power for
some nefarious reason, I'm certain you'll find a way. Going to your local
apple store dressed in your native clothing while speaking your native
language isn't in your game plan.

------
waterlesscloud
News video here, including interviews with two of the people mentioned in the
article.

[http://www.ajc.com/news/north-fulton/farsi-speaking-
customer...](http://www.ajc.com/news/north-fulton/farsi-speaking-customers-
say-1460360.html)

------
noonespecial
What they should think about doing is refusing to sell to anyone from that
wacky district in east Texas that's causing all of the patent troll messes.

Now that would benefit the country more than some goofy ethnic profile rule.

~~~
briandear
Except there's no law against selling to Texas. Your logic is flawed.

------
jszielenski
An airline denied me boarding a flight because I had a turban on.

~~~
AsylumWarden
My wife and I were accosted and robbed at knife point in Italy because, as the
mugger put it, we were American and deserved it. The cops thought it was
funny. A friend of mine was arrested in Egypt back in 2009. He spent a year in
prison simply because he was overheard casually mentioned to his associate
that he was a Christian. I have a coworker who told me about how his laptop
was confiscated on his way through the LAX airport because he used PGP
encryption for his hard drive and was a foreign national working for an
overseas UAV manufacturer. The list goes on and on.

~~~
jbm
Your friend was arrested for being a Christian in a country with a large
Christian minority? Please elaborate.

~~~
AsylumWarden
I suspect that just because there is a minority present doesn't mean that it
is always tolerated; especially if an American is involved overseas. I believe
tolerance changes with the winds (or whims) of time as it were.

My friend's conviction was down the lines of evangelizing and disturbing the
peace. He was in Egypt for combination work and vacation and while preparing
to leave was overheard commenting to someone he had meet on being a Christian
and was reported to security. He got detained, questioned, beat up a little,
and tossed in jail. He was later tried, found guilty and left in prison. The
US government couldn't, or wouldn't, get him out. Sad story really.

------
chawco
> The iPad was to be a gift for her cousin who lives in Iran.

I'm guessing they may have mentioned this fact, which would have made it
illegal to sell to them due to the export ban.

------
mullingitover
This is a fine civil rights lawsuit in the making.

------
mikerice
Why is this even bad? Current US - Iran relations are very bad, and are
blowing up thanks to media. It's no surprise that this man doesn't want to
risk losing his job.

------
joeblau
Per Apples policy, it seems like all she has to do is get authorization from
the U.S. Government.

~~~
tshtf
Since when to U.S. citizens need a government authorization to buy a computer?

~~~
joeblau
I don't know, read the law that Apple is citing. Apparently, it has to do with
relation to Iran, Cuba, and North Korea.

------
dsk2012
I'm so happy that between us and them, stands a low-wage retail Apple
employee.

------
kitsune_
So much for hiring "geniuses"...

~~~
njloof
Not a lot of geniuses in Alpharetta, Georgia, it seems...

------
yashchandra
If it is really to enforce export laws, why dont they check that at the
airport when people are actually leaving the US ? This store should apologize
and teach its employees to behave better.

~~~
lutorm
Because the "export" happens when a foreign person gets access to the
material, not when they leave the country.

~~~
Aleppo_Redditor
I get it, but it's still a stupid law that punishes the average iranian
citizen that has nothing to do with the iranian government. I recently lost a
job offer in a semiconductor company because of the deemed export law. And by
"a foreign person" they actually mean chinese, iranian, syrians and cubans.
Most technologies aren't restricted to most of the world including Saudia
Arabia and Pakistan the origins of almost all terrorists.

------
aGoodperson
Being denied a sale in a single store is nothing compared to how iranians
would treat an american trying to live on thier soil. Have you seen the videos
of thousands of iranians screeming in unison, stringing up fake american
dummies, beating them with sticks, stoneing them, setting them on fire and
burning the american flag in the streets? For the most part we live with you
in peace over here,we wouldn't string you up or cut your head off with a knife
or burn you alive but you are appaulled that someone doesn't trust you here?

------
aGoodperson
you could always go back and not have to worry about the apple store
employees, because there are non back in iran.

------
accountswu
What should the people of Iranian origin do to make it easy for Apple Nazis?
Put a star of David or a crescent on their clothes before they enter the
store?

------
appleRecist
this is complete example of racism.

~~~
jcromartie
It's racist to jump to the conclusion that someone speaking the language of
Iran might be Iranian? I'd say that's a reasonable (if incorrect) assumption
to make.

~~~
Ralith
It wasn't even incorrect: her own words were "I'm from Iran." It's obvious
that the Apple employee made the perfectly reasonable interpretation that this
described her citizenship.

~~~
chris_wot
What's untrue about that statement? She is from Iran! Now she is a U.S.
citizen.

~~~
Ralith
Nothing is untrue about it. Obviously, there was a miscommunication, and the
woman decided to go scream "Racism!" to the presses instead of clearing it up.

Edit: Oh, I see, you thought I was asserting that she was of Iranian
citizenship. I understood the parent of my original post to be referring to
her being of Iranian race, because she appears to be trying to make it out as
a race issue, when in truth it is a citizenship issue.

~~~
chris_wot
Yeah, sorry if there was any confusion. I don't think this was about racism,
just an incredibly awkward situation brought about by a stupid law.

~~~
Ralith
> "Discrimination. Racially profiled. He didn't have any business asking me
> what country I was from," Sabet said.

Sounds like she's trying to make it about racism to me. The only other
interpretation I can come up with is that she's complaining about people of
Iranian race speaking Iranian language being "racially profiled" to be
Iranians, which is pretty absurd as complaints go.

------
spwert
The only person in the wrong here is the customer service representative who's
violating US sanctions against Iran by selling an iPad to an Iranian citizen.

e: can't read, see below.

~~~
MartinCron
Did you miss the "Sabet is a U.S. citizen" in the article?

~~~
Turing_Machine
There's no mention of her telling the clerk that she was a U.S. citizen. She
told him "I'm from Iran". What's he supposed to do in that case? Can't blame
him for not taking the risk. That's a serious federal law (and it's not
unheard of for the feds to run sting operations, when it comes down to that).

The other guy was definitely trying to buy the device for an Iranian citizen.

~~~
Quizzy
The Federal Law says nothing about selling to a person who has no intention of
bringing the item back to Iran, but simply has either a Farsi accent or was
born in Iran. There was no mention of an Apple policy that requires its
employees to ask "What is your citizenship?", but instead automatically assume
nationality based on the comment "I'm from Iran." If the onus is on the
consumer to clearly state his citizenship, then shouldn't there be a sign that
lists the legal conditions of purchase?

I am most bothered by the fact that the Apple rep recognized Farsi and
inquired further. So is it pure coincidence that the Apple rep knows Farsi or
is every Apple retailer trained to recognize Farsi? And even if the Apple rep
recognizes Farsi and inquires further, what if the consumer lies and says "no,
I'm speaking Hindi", then what? Polygraph test? Bring in an interpreter? Call
security to escort them out?

Apple is walking down a very slippery slope here.

------
ctdonath
Not long ago, the same store suffered a break-in attempt. Some guys in another
state wanted bail money for their buddy, so they drove several hours to this
store, waited 'til after hours, smashed a mall window, crawled in, and tried
without luck to break into the Apple store. Turns out the stores, despite
having lots of glass, are built like bank vaults.

~~~
duiker101
...and...how is this related to this story? Also it's something that you would
expect from a store that has several thousands of dollars in it...

~~~
ctdonath
It's related for being the same store, which I care about because I visit it
on a regular basis.

Not often does one store make the news multiple times in a short period.

------
josteink
Sorry. Farsi is low class and only hipsters and rich people are allowed to buy
iPads.

Edit: Jesus christ the amount of Apple apologetics in this thread. I'm out of
here.

