
Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S. - pg
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-30/startups-like-berlin-because-visa-rules-are-nothing-like-the-u-s-.html?cmpid=mashable
======
peterjmag
I successfully applied for a work visa here in Berlin, and I was blown away by
how quick the process was, especially in contrast to the stories I hear about
the same process in the US. From submitting all the paperwork to getting word
that my application was approved, it took a grand total of _7 days_. I was
expecting to wait at least a few weeks, but it seems that the new Blue Card
legislation has really streamlined things.

For anyone considering working in Germany, I would definitely recommend
looking into the Blue Card, which offers some advantages over the normal work
permit:

\- It's initially valid for 4 years. For limited contracts, it's valid for the
length of the contract plus 3 months.

\- After 36 months with a Blue Card, you can apply for permanent residency (as
opposed to 5 years with the normal work permit). This is lowered to only 21
months if you can prove B1-level German proficiency.

\- You can leave the EU for up to 12 months without losing your visa status
(versus 6 months with the normal work permit).

\- After 18 months, you're free to live and work in any other EU country.

Further details: [http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card-
germany/](http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card-germany/)

~~~
makmanalp
So what's the catch? What's worse about the Blue Card / why would you ever get
the work permit?

~~~
speedracr
The Blue Card requires that you have a job contract or very concrete job offer
with a minimum salary, and will more or less be tied to that job: If you lose
your job, they apparently can give you some time to find a new one, but you
may get kicked out if you fail in that endeavor. Also, if you want to change
jobs away from the one that originally got you the Blue Card, you'll have to
get formal approval. (Edit: this would probably apply to a regular work
permit, as well. I'm German, so I never had this problem. Still, you can
apparently even apply to get a work permit as a freelancer, which would then
make life much easier for you if you don't want to tie yourself to a Blue Card
job for that long.)

Other than that, there seems to be no catch - the Blue Card is meant to
attract highly skilled workers, so once that hurdle is cleared (>> minimum
salary, university education, easier for certain high-in-demand sectors), the
EU countries seem pretty happy to have Blue Card holders stay - as they should
be.

~~~
peterjmag
Yep, the permit is tied to a specific job for the first two years[1]. From
what I understand, it's pretty easy to get approval for a different job, as
long as the job description is similar. Interestingly, my residence permit
also says "selbständig Tätigkeit gestattet" (self-employment permitted), so it
seems I could freelance here without needing a different visa.

[1]
[http://www.berlin.de/labo/auslaender/dienstleistungen/index....](http://www.berlin.de/labo/auslaender/dienstleistungen/index.php/dienstleistung/324659/en/)

------
tptacek
German labor law has some features that might interact in interesting ways
with startups.

Germany lacks employment-at-will; it appears that disputed terminations can
easily become lawsuits there (but German law also seems to have orderly
mechanisms for resolving these disputes, which boil down to mandatory
severance).

German law has what appears to be a strict policy on hours worked per week and
per day, and on working over weekends.

German law has statutory maternity leave (which I think is unproblematic) but
also a statutory 3-year(!) parental leave, during which time employees aren't
paid but are entitled to their job on return. Are startups exempt from this?

~~~
wheels
On the at-will thing, in addition to it being easier if the company has
demonstrable financial problems as someone else mentioned, one thing that
makes it less of an issue is that usually when you start at a company in
Germany you're given a fixed-term contract. It's only after your third
contract (i.e. usually after two years) that you're required to get a
permanent contract. In most cases if there's a real clash it's going to be
sussed out in the first two years of employment, and during the first six
months employees can be fired with no notice.

The working hours thing, for better or worse, is broadly ignored in software
companies. That said, hours aren't as extreme as in many American companies.

For the parental leave, that only applies for companies with more than 15
employees, so the startups that it would affect are going to be more
established. And while taking a year off is common, it's very rare for more to
be taken with intent to return to the job.

~~~
nerfhammer
> The working hours thing, for better or worse, is broadly ignored in software
> companies.

However, Germans at least take the idea of vacation time seriously

~~~
epsylon
I'd argue that it's the other way around: Americans don't take vacation time
very seriously.

------
parennoob
As someone who is a non-US citizen going through the tortuous process of
acquiring permanent residency in the US (estimated time: 8-10 years), I will
advise any international people looking for their first job -- if you can get
one in Berlin, Canada, or elsewhere, take it.

The US immigration system is fraught with bureaucracy, and is structured such
that employers have strong incentives to delay your application for permanent
residency for as long as possible. This, combined with per-country caps on
green cards, makes for a process where you spend a decade or more in a country
as an "alien" when you are working there and paying large amounts of taxes
towards a Social Security system etc. that you have no chance of using in your
present state.

(To be fair, there is a fair bit of reform in this system that has been
_proposed_ by Congress, but with the current state it is in, it could be years
before those bills are passed and made into laws.)

~~~
pucallpa
this ^^^

I worked in canada for a year and was offered to stay, my permanent residency
would have been granted after 6 months and citizenship in 2 years.

After 5 years in the US, I'm on this situation, even after obtained a Software
Engineering master degree in the US from CMU, my application is being dragged.

~~~
levosmetalo
That's why there's no rational reason experienced developer who have a wife
and kids will choose USA over Germany. In USA he would first need to wait at
least one year until his family can arrive, then wait for 5 or more years to
get permanent residency (Green Card) in which period his wife will not have
permission to work, and he would be unable to plan his future in any
significant way because he would live on the edge of deportation if his
current employer decide he doesn't work (good/hard/long) enough. That's at
least six years of limbo in someones' life. It might be ok for singles with no
kids, but noone else.

Compare that to Germany where it takes at most 3 months to be completely
settled with the family where wife also gets work permit, and children can
start getting child benefits and going to state subsided kindergartens from
the get go.

I would start thinking about moving to US if and only if I would get Green
Card from the start, but even then I'm not sure I would change EU(ropean) way
of life for 50+ work weeks, one week of vacation and no payed sick or parental
leave, super expensive education and no universal health care.

~~~
Aloisius
_I 'm not sure I would change EU(ropean) way of life for 50+ work weeks, one
week of vacation and no payed sick or parental leave, super expensive
education and no universal health care._

No paid sick leave? One week of vacation? Super expensive education (for
kindergarten???)?

Where in the US are you talking about? While we don't tend to have laws
mandating sick leave, nearly every company that you'd immigrate for gives it.
I've never worked anywhere that didn't offer at least two weeks of vacation.

Working 50+ hours is really a personal choice (as long as you work for an
ethical employer) since it isn't legal to require someone to work more than 40
hours/week.

I'm not sure about super expensive education. Out of state tuition is
typically expensive if you want to go to a top university, but the average
community college is downright cheap.

~~~
lightbritefight
| Where in the US are you talking about? While we don't tend to have laws
mandating sick leave, nearly every company that you'd immigrate for gives it.
I've never worked anywhere that didn't offer at least two weeks of vacation.

No offense, but your proof here is purely anecdotal. I've worked for employers
who offer less than two weeks. My first STEM job offered 5 days your first
year, with 5 more each additional year, capping at 20. 2 weeks may be thought
of as the norm, but since there is no actual law about it, its only a
suggestion.

|Working 50+ hours is really a personal choice (as long as you work for an
ethical employer) since it isn't legal to require someone to work more than 40
hours/week.

This is only true if you are hourly, and dont fall under a salaried exception.
Its also only true if your employer is ethical, as you say. Since the US is
largely at-will, you can be fired for most any reason. They aren't even
required to tell you why. So, if you turn down your unethical boss insistence
on a 50 hour week at a 40 hour weeks pay, you can be on the street in an hour.
You can try to fight it, but the laws in the US are stacked in the employers
favor.

|I'm not sure about super expensive education. Out of state tuition is
typically expensive if you want to go to a good university, but the average
community college is downright cheap.

This is generally true. JC are comparably cheap, but contrast this against
someplace in the EU that has "high" tuition. A 4 year degree from a good
school in England will set you back about 30k. Here, an equivalently
prestigious degree can cost you 150k, easy. While you may learn the same at a
2 year JC, which will still cost you 15k by the by,you lack the prestige that
a University degree gets you. Sadly, thats what gets you in the door. So, to
be equally prestigious, you need to have 150k in debt in the US, and only 30K
in debt in the UK. Thats not the same at all.

~~~
Aloisius
_No offense, but your proof here is purely anecdotal. I 've worked for
employers who offer less than two weeks. My first STEM job offered 5 days your
first year, with 5 more each additional year, capping at 20. 2 weeks may be
thought of as the norm, but since there is no actual law about it, its only a
suggestion._

For professional jobs in the US, the average paid vacation after the first
year of service is 10 days (2 weeks)[1]. Sadly they don't have statistics for
0-1 years so I don't know if your package was atypical.

That said, we certainly don't match our European counterparts, but then again,
we don't even use most of the vacation time we are given every year[2]. The US
simply doesn't have a culture of taking vacations like Europe.

[1]
[http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm](http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm)

[2]
[http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/18/news/economy/unused_vacation...](http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/18/news/economy/unused_vacation_days/index.htm)

~~~
alexatkeplar
I've often wondered about this. Given how many Americans move cross-country
for work, does that mean large numbers spend only a day or two a year with
their immediate families?

------
okeumeni
This is controversial but it is my personal experience: As a non-white, living
in Germany is hard; the level of bigotry and racism in my opinion makes the
nuisance of the US visa system negligible. Most tech immigrants are non-whites
so I think a debate over immigration should take into account the quality of
life for the techies and their family. Sure the US still have a lot to do to
improve its visa system, but the American way of life and its people, makes
the US the most attractive place to go for non-whites techies.

~~~
Qom
I honestly find that surprising. Germany is the place in Europe where there is
the most white guilt. I stayed there for a few months and experienced zero
problems.

~~~
selmnoo
You probably didn't go to East Germany then?

I have a lot of (brown) Asian family relatives who've spent decades in
Germany, they tell me America is basically a heaven in comparison. Canada is
pretty much the only country that comes close to America (according to them --
and my experiences ring true here as well), in not being racist to non-white
individuals.

------
chimeracoder
Visas deter US-based startups from hiring foreign talent, but on the flip
side, US taxation laws deter US-based talent from leaving the country.

I would love the idea of working for a startup in Berlin, but to make
financially comparable, I'd have to be paid about 30% more[0] just to offset
the cost of paying double taxes (both to the US, and to Germany). I'm ignoring
factors like COLA, other expenses, etc., but for a US citizen this is a major
deterrent to living abroad, even temporarily.

I guess a cynic would say that this is just the system "working as intended",
though that just raises the question of _whose_ intentions it's working for.

I would _love_ to live in a foreign country for a few years in my 20s (the
easiest time to do it), and assuming I eventually move back, the US will
already get a cut of any foreign income I made via sales tax (when I spend
it), capital gains (when I invest it), and (eventually) the estate tax.

[0] Edit: Apparently this figure is off - see discussion below. The
tax/financial implications still do appear to be a hurdle, it's just
(unsurprisingly) even more complicated than I realized.

~~~
philiphodgen
If you are a U.S. citizen working in Berlin and paying German income tax, you
will not be double-taxed on the income. The USA will give you credit for the
tax paid in Germany. See Form 1116. Others have mentioned the Foreign Earned
Income Exclusion. See Form 2555.

You will, however, pay two metric shit-tonnes in professional fees getting
your U.S. tax returns prepared because the international tax rules are so
ridiculous. The operating principle in U.S. tax law is "If you are doing
something abroad, you must be Mafia ^H^H^H^H^H a drug lord ^H^H^H^H^H a
thieving bastard tax cheat ^H^H^H^H^H^H terrorist." (The Poster Child of Evil
has changed over the years, but the pig-headedness has remained constant).

Disclaimer: I am an international tax lawyer.

~~~
chimeracoder
> Disclaimer: I am an international tax lawyer.

Alright, I'll take your word for it then.

> You will, however, pay two metric shit-tonnes in professional fees getting
> your U.S. tax returns prepared because the international tax rules are so
> ridiculous

So, instead of getting shafted by paying Uncle Sam, I'll get shafted by paying
a tax attorney. :)

Either way, there is a financial disincentive to working abroad, and that's
not taking into account the fact that this is a disincentive to _look_ for
jobs abroad (speaking for myself, I'd want to figure out the financial
implications before seeking employment abroad, and this creates yet one more
hurdle).

~~~
philiphodgen
There is an extreme financial disincentive for Americans to work abroad. If
you travel frequently to Dubai (as an example) as I do, it will astonish* you
to discover very few Americans working there, but tons of British, Australian,
South African, etc. people busily making a living, building a business, etc.

The reason is taxation. Americans working in Dubai (no income tax there) must
still pay U.S. income tax and pay a ton to get the tax returns done correctly.
A British citizen working in Dubai pays nothing to Inland Revenue and does not
file a U.K. income tax return.

Question: who is cheaper to hire, if you are an employer in Dubai?

Hint: that's why all of the international bankers are NOT American.

\-------

* Sarcasm.

EDIT: this is one reason why our law firm has a booming business in
expatriation -- people giving up U.S. citizenship/green cards.

~~~
spikels
This effect is biggest in low tax countries because of the credit US citizens
end up paying the HIGHER of US and local income taxes (more or less - rules
are complex).

Also see relatively few Americans in Hong Kong and Singapore which have low
tax rates like Dubai. Unlike almost everyone else in the world there is no
benefit for Americans to work in low tax countries because they still end up
paying US tax rates. If a company hires an Austrailian and an American in Hong
Kong the American ends up with less after tax income. So the draw to these
places is much less for US citizens.

~~~
vasilipupkin
There is still a benefit, because you pay only federal income taxes, but not
state taxes and you do not pay various other taxes such as medicare surcharge
on investment income. So if you are from a high tax state in the U.S. (
California or NY ), it may still make sense.

------
spikels
This is a weak article. The headline exaggerates the content of the article as
is often the case. Based on anecdotal opinions of two Berlin techies who
probably have an incentive to promote Berlin's tech scene. The conclusion is
that the German visa process is still intolerable. Yet somehow the application
process is better is some ways. Some details of the process would be nice as
well numbers of visas granted and time frames would be very helpful.

There are currently several big PR effort around US immigration reform[1].
Could this article just be part of that effort directed at Silicon Valley? Am
I being paranoid?

Edit: I'm for easier immigration and work visas but would like a more
transparent and fact based discussion.

[1] [http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/10/24/republicans-for-
imm...](http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/10/24/republicans-for-immigration-
reform-boost-effort-in-house/)

~~~
selmnoo
The submitter of this article, pg, is in fact a major contributor to the
FWD.us intiative [1]. But it's probably better to assume there's a good faith
basis in the submission of this article, since we've no reason to believe
otherwise. You're very right that Berlin in recent years has been aggressively
pushing itself as the next Valley (and I guess to some extent it is succeeding
-- you're seeing a few big players emerge from there, Soundcloud being one
that everyone knows about).

The reason why it'll never be the next full-on Valley though, in my opinion
(as another poster has already mentioned) is the racism there. As a brown guy
who's been to a lot of places, let me tell you that there is racism basically
everywhere but in America (and Canada). It is of a particularly sharp type in
Berlin (and the rest of East Germany). It really puts a burden on you mentally
when you have to make everyday life decisions (should I take the train at this
time? alone? at $X place?) in efforts of just escaping harassment. For as much
as I rail on America for the eroding civil liberties and all, I can not
imagine leaving this place for any other.

[1]: [http://www.fwd.us/our_supporters](http://www.fwd.us/our_supporters)

------
ajju
One day I will write about the tragi-comedy that was my route to being able to
start and run a startup as an immigrant.

Meanwhile, I want to highlight two things:

(1) My wife, who has a graduate degree from one of the best schools in the
U.S. and has been living in the U.S. for a decade, is currently stuck in
Canada indefinitely because on her 3rd visa stamping they decided that she may
be a security risk and they need to investigate her _because she took an
information security class in grad school 8 years ago_.

I am not exaggerating when I say indefinitely. They will literally not provide
an expected timeline by which she will get an answer. She has met at least 3
individuals who have been stuck in this kind of limbo for over a year.

The cherry on the cake: this is the 2nd time this is happening to her. The
first time, after 2 months, they decided she was o.k.

If you are going to use basic keyword filtering on an applicant's resume to
flag them, at the very least you should learn from the false positives!

(2) For all the bad press that the H1B program gets, at least 50% of the
people I know who got an H1B after going to grad school in the U.S. have
actively tried to start a startup. Most gave up on it because of the high risk
of being kicked out in the U.S. since there is no startup visa.

Would you start a startup if every time you left the country you risked not
being let back in indefinitely? Most of my rational friends think I am crazy
for taking that kind of risk.

Think about it - even anti-H1B advocates who think these H1Bs are stealing
their jobs should be happy to let these guys get a visa to start a company so
that they are not "stealing jobs"!

------
kellysutton
Having built the first version of LayerVault in Berlin, it was remarkable to
see how many expats were building companies there. It's also much more
affordable than your more traditional hubs.

I can't recommend Berlin enough, especially for building an MVP.

~~~
lgieron
You can also build it in, like, your home town.

I don't get this obsession with moving to a startup hub before there's even
most remote proof of your startup's viability. To me, it always raises the
suspicion that one's less interested in actually building the business and
more interested in living inside the movie The Social Network.

~~~
oscargrouch
I think is the same phenomenon that happen to a lot wannabe-writers or
painters; they would move to Paris or New York, just to feel they were real
Van Goghs or Proust's :)

~~~
lsc
>I think is the same phenomenon that happen to a lot wannabe-writers or
painters; they would move to Paris or New York, just to feel they were real
Van Goghs or Proust's :)

It's nice to be around people who value the things you value. It's nice to
have friends you can talk to who understand what you are going through. I know
for me, it's nice to be around people who are impressed when I do things that
I feel are impressive, and it's nice to be around people who are better than I
am.

I mean, yeah, there is a tech scene in davis and in sacramento... but it is a
much 'smaller pond' \- it really is pretty cool to be able to rub shoulders
with the leading voices of your industry, and that's way easier to do here.

In a very real sense, you /can/ come rub shoulders with Van Gogh or Proust
here, I mean, figuratively speaking. Many of the leading figures in the
industry. Maybe you think wanting that is silly, but... yeah, some of us are
really into that sort of thing.

I am in silicon valley, mostly for the social reasons you mention. I think
that's valid, and it's worth the extra money for me. It's not worth the extra
money for some other people, an that's fine too, but this is what I want to
spend my money on, and I feel that I'm getting a reasonable value out of the
deal.

(There is also monetary advantages... but if I'm being honest with myself, I'm
mostly here for the social advantages.)

------
CookWithMe
> The amount of talent that I need for the problem that we're trying to solve

NumberFour has an incredibly high turnover of talent, both from what I
anecdotally hear from people who workED their (apparently no one sticks around
for longer than a year...) and when looking online at their ratings:
[http://www.kununu.com/de/be/berlin/in/numberfour1](http://www.kununu.com/de/be/berlin/in/numberfour1)

So, if you you want to emigrate to Berlin, please do so, but be aware that
there are great and ... not-so-great companies here (like everywhere else).

[Disclaimer: I shortly considered applying at NumberFour, but quickly
dismissed it ]

------
CalRobert
I clawed and scratched my way into Europe (Ireland) because I was sick and
tired of my taxes supporting drone warfare and I didn't want to have to pay
$2500 per month for an apartment so I could ride a bike to work. It's awesome.

By all accounts Germany is even nicer, with a stronger economy, better cycling
infrastructure, and cheaper rents. Honestly I'm not sure why you'd move to the
US if Germany is an option.

~~~
bergie
Also, Berlin is international enough that you'll get by quite nicely without
speaking German.

~~~
simonhn
You need to be willing and able to learn German in addition to simply working
in Berlin. Depending on your ability to pick up new languages, this can be
quite a lot of extra work in the evening and/or weekends (it was for me).

Not everyone can, or is willing to (e.g. in banks) speak English, or you may
sometimes find yourself on the wrong railway platform, or having a long wait
in the wrong queue when you cannot understand German.

The big German cities I know well: Berlin, Hamburg and Munich are all very
nice places to live and work.

~~~
bergie
Sure, things are nicer if you speak even a little German. I don't, and have
been doing fine in Berlin. Other German cities on the other hand are a
different story.

Oh, and on banks... At least Sparkasse got me an English-speaking rep when I
asked for one.

------
tokenadult
I didn't see any official statistics in this Bloomberg article, which is
unusual for articles on public policy issues from that publisher. Such
statistics would be helpful for putting the individual statements by business
owners in context.

What do we know about the total number of immigrants who arrive in Germany
each year under the visa status described in the article? How does that
compare to the total number of immigrants who arrive in the United States each
year under its visa categories mentioned in the article? As a matter of
country-to-country net immigration, does the United States gain immigrants
from Germany, or does Germany gain immigrants from the United States? (In net
immigration between the two countries, do different categories of immigrants
have differing net preferences for one country or the other?) It's really hard
to figure out how generalizable the statements in this article are without
more context like this. Statistics trump anecdotes, even though anecdotes are
more compelling to the human mind.

~~~
Aloisius
_As a matter of country-to-country net immigration, does the United States
gain immigrants from Germany, or does Germany gain immigrants from the United
States?_

It is hard to find comparable statistics, but Germany claimed to have about
100,000 US citizens living there total in 2011[1]. In 2011, over 600,000
people who were born in Germany resided in the US[2].

1\.
[https://www.destatis.de/DE/Publikationen/Thematisch/Bevoelke...](https://www.destatis.de/DE/Publikationen/Thematisch/Bevoelkerung/MigrationIntegration/AuslaendBevoelkerung2010200117004.pdf?__blob=publicationFile)

2\. [http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/01/PHC-2011-FB-Stat-
Pr...](http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/01/PHC-2011-FB-Stat-Profiles.pdf)

------
aashaykumar92
Even Boerries says it will still take a long time for a 'techie' to acquire a
Visa, Germany just offers a simpler application process and is fastER than
that of Americas.

And even if the time it takes to get a Visa is close to similar, it comes down
to a debate between being in Silicon Valley vs. Berlin...despite the so-called
saturation of startups in the valley, the reality is opportunity is far
greater in the valley than anywhere else. Silicon Valley wins IMO.

~~~
rsynnott
Remember, though, that Germany's in the EU; that's a big pool of people who
don't require a visa at all.

------
gotrecruit
as an aspiring foreign entrepreneur (to US), i have personally been through
visa hell the past year. i spent almost an entire year going through the
horrible visa process, and til today i'm still yet to receive one. i've been
denied 3 times already and i highly doubt i will ever get one. i don't
understand why america is so hostile to foreigners these days.

for the record, i have a bachelor's degree from a respectable american
university (the only visa i've ever gotten), i have no criminal convictions
and i come from a wealthy 1%-er family from my country. i cannot see how i
pose any risk at all to america by letting me in. i've very recently made my
last attempt to return to US, and if this fails again, i will not try again
and will be looking to canada instead where i will bring all the resources i
have and try to start something. i hope to succeed, if only just for the
chance to be in the news and say something to the effect of "America, you
could have had all these taxes paid to you and all these jobs created by my
company, instead you shut your doors to me and so fuck you"

------
geebee
This article prompted me to look into something I've been interested in for a
while - what's the skilled vs unskilled breakdown in immigration for various
countries?

Canada and Australia, as far as I understand it, do emphasize skilled
immigration, though not exclusively (Australia has a points test that I think
the US would do well to emulate). I read a lot of praise for Germany's startup
visa, but I'm also reading about hostility toward immigrants, boats of poor,
uneducated (and most likely) migrants sinking off the coast of Italy or the
shores of Australia... there's a lot of anecdote here (stories like that
attract a lot of attention - but are they typical?). A really broad look would
be interesting to read about.

I actually haven't been able to find much about this, though - at least not on
a nation-by-nation basis. It does sound like a difficult bit of data analysis,
because the numbers themselves are tough to interpret (for example, would
migration within the EU count as immigration, whereas Californians moving to
Texas wouldn't?).

Anyone got any good links?

------
vendakka
I moved to Tübingen, Germany from the South Bay this week to move closer to my
wife. I was able to establish a company and I'm currently working for my
company. While I needed to work with a few German lawyers to navigate the
legal processes, the whole thing was surprisingly painless.

I was on an H1B in the US and it would have taken me close to a decade to get
permanent residence and start a company that I could work for. For some
context, I'm an ex-Googler and I've been part of the founding team of a
successful startup previously. Despite all the above it would have been
difficult for me to found a startup in the US and work for it.

However, after a few months of applying to Germany I now have a registered
GmbH, an approval for a Blue Card and I'm paying my bills through consulting.
I should be able to start work on my startup in a short while once I have
sufficient run-way to pay my own salary for a year or so.

I just signed a lease for office space yesterday and I'm looking forward to
exploring the German startup scene.

------
jeremydavid
Are there any Berlin startups in here willing to write a "Letter of Intent"?
If so, I'd love to send you an email and explain more!

(Basically, a Letter of Intent is a non-binding letter used to get a freelance
visa that shows the applicant is capable of building connections - I intend to
actually work on my own projects once I get in the door.)

------
nchuhoai
Just to chip in on the Berlin train. As OP stated, it's fairly easy to get a
visa, but you might not even need one. I know tons of people who have no
official visa whatsoever, are just there on a tourist visa, which really is
just a simple stamp at the border. No one really cares.

Usual talking points include the low living costs but relatively high standard
of living, making it the ideal ground for people in their 20s-30s trying to
get something off the ground.

Can't really comment on what happens once you get off the ground, generally
Germany is just a bureaucracy if not worse than the US.

Also, it's super hip to hate on all the newcomers to Berlin and how Berlin
becomes no hip no more. Funny thing is that most of them have barely been a
year or two in Berlin. As born-and-raised Berliner, I reserve myself the right
to shit on the influx of people.

~~~
freehunter
If I were seeking citizenship in Germany but had only been in the country on
the tourist visa, does the (5 year?) timer start from when I arrived in the
country, or from when I get an official visa?

You can work a job legally without a work visa?

------
hbharadwaj
Added to the fact that people coming from India and China don't have options
like DV list, O1 and are sort of ill-treated and are looked down upon, etc., -
I owe a lot of gratitude to the outsourcing and loan staff boom. Thanks
Infosys, Wipro, etc.,

Can someone comment on how London compares with Berlin?

------
LetBinding
What is the Big Data startup scene like in Berlin?

I am about to graduate with a PhD in Machine Learning from a US university. I
have talked to several Big Data startups in the valley but being a foreigner,
the visa is a hurdle. But if this article is true, maybe I should look at the
Berlin scene.

~~~
brassybadger
There are lots of startups in Berlin, and the tech scene is flourishing.
However, I always feel that companies here are behind the state of the art.
There might be exceptions, this is just my impression when I go to meetups,
presentations, or talk to colleagues (they have worked for quite a few
different companies here in Berlin).

That being said, there are quite a few companies that are into the big data
business. Having a PhD will certainly make it very easy for you to get a good
job here.

~~~
LetBinding
That's nice to know. Do you work for a Berlin big data startup too?

------
janus
As a argentinian programmer with italian citizenship that is considering
leaving the country for Europe, are there any sites / forums or communities
where I can contact startups or companies residing in Berlin?

I'm a web developer with experience in Ruby, Rails and Javascript

~~~
spariev
You may want to take a look at
[http://berlinstartupjobs.com](http://berlinstartupjobs.com)

------
patrik
The immigration policies in Berlin/Germany might be better than they are in
the US, but they are _far_ from perfect.

As someone from Berlin who went through the whole process multiple times from
an employer perspective, these are my experiences:

When you hire someone from the EU: No problems at all.

When someone is from another “western” country (USA, Australia, etc.): Things
take some more time and are a bit of a hassle, but are basically OK.

Everything else: Big problems. Unless you are formally really well qualified,
a work permit is pretty hard to attain. If it is even possible at all, it
definitely takes a lot of time and energy from everyone involved.

------
mahyarm
One negative is if I want to immigrate and get citizenship, I would have to
give up my original citizenship. It's too bad that the EU's start up hub is in
a country without dual citizenship.

~~~
levosmetalo
If your own country allows dual citizenship, you are not legally prohibited to
get your original citizenship again after taking German. Germany doesn't
explicitly prohibit their citizens to take another country citizenship, it
just doesn't want to grant its own if you don't renounce all your old
citizenships. IANAL, but know many people who did just that.

~~~
mahyarm
Unless your from the UK or EU which just lets you get it again relatively
easily or the consequences very minor, many countries make you go through the
green card song and dance all over again. It's a pain in today's international
world.

------
altero
I find it ironic that Germany emigration policy is considered friendly. I live
in Czech Republic, but it was easier to move to Ireland than to neighboring
Germany.

Germany is very nationalistic state, it had number of exceptions from EU open
space. Even now German Police searches vehicles with foreign registration
plates (search is nearly disassembly).

German law is VERY unfriendly to startups, and the taxes for companies and
workers are very high. I would choose Ireland, Czech Rep or Poland over
Germany any time

------
oscargrouch
If you are a expat and want to create a startup in Berlin, how hard is it?
what would you need? how hard is to get the visa?

I've seen that France was creating a "startup visa" to help foreigners
founders to create companies there. Is there something similar going on on
Germany?

Im realling looking over this, and was thinking about Berlin, Paris or Rio (on
my own country)

Edit: I also can go for the Polish citizenship as a polish descendant and get
into the EU that way as another option

~~~
CalRobert
Edit: I also can go for the Polish citizenship as a polish descendant and get
into the EU that way as another option

That seems like the obvious choice. Do that. Then you can do this like any
other EU citizen, and if it fails you're not worried about getting kicked out.

------
jmspring
It is a bit off topic, but do people have a good reference to German
government policy around self employment visas and laws? Realistically, via
the wife (a German national), I could arrange necessary permits when we decide
to move there. That said, I'd like to know what the self employment/self
funding routes might be just to be better rounded in the whole approach.

------
nachteilig
I remain surprised that the US hasn't adopted more of this sort of attitude
toward immigration. Historically it's a country that's always been about
taking the best talent from elsewhere, so I remain baffled that it's so
difficult in modern days. Especially with 'silicon valley' being located in
America.

------
jobu
Take note of the caveat at the bottom of the article:

*"The Germans appreciate their visa-application process in comparison with America’s, but in the end, it’s still a slower process than many techies are willing to tolerate."

German bureaucracy may not be the worst in the world, but it is significantly
more convoluted than the United States.

------
Aloisius
US Visa laws are certainly hard, but there is a positive side (for the US at
least): only those that are highly motivated to move here make it through the
process.

This really does bias the types of immigrants we get. As much as people might
complain about immigrants coming in and then going on welfare, it just doesn't
happen with any frequency. Instead, we get immigrants who come here and start
companies at twice the rate of natural born citizens.

Our labor laws also select for people who really want to work - at least
compared to our European counterparts. I don't mean to say that people who
emigrate to Europe don't want to work, but the perception that you have to
work longer hours in the US certainly does weed out the people who are overly
concerned about working too much.

As long as we continue to have people who want to come to the US, I can't see
why we'd want to make the process easier unless we can continue to keep these
filters in place.

~~~
jkarni
Or: weeding out everyone who believes forms and bureaucracy shouldn't
constitute a significant fraction of one's mental landscape, or who is
offended by the extent to which the difficulty of the process makes it seem
like the government doesn't want you here in the first place, or whose
opportunities in other countries are close enough in attractiveness for the
annoyance to tip the scale (presumably precisely the people you should most
_try_ to attract).

Though "weeding out" or "filtering" to any real extent clearly isn't all that
much of a priority when a large part of the system is a _lottery_.

~~~
Aloisius
_Though "weeding out" or "filtering" to any real extent clearly isn't all that
much of a priority when a large part of the system is a lottery._

The green card lottery (Diversity Immigrant Visa) makes up less than 5% of the
total green cards issued in the US. I'd hardly call that a large part of the
system.

~~~
jkarni
I was thinking of H1B.

------
aphelion
It's things like this that make me wish Silicon Valley invested less energy
and resources in nutty utopian schemes like artificial islands and more in
lobbying for liberalization and modernization of U.S. immigration policy.

------
kriro
Most importantly (imo) Berlin is a European capital with fun stuff to do and
very affordable rent and cost of living.

The location is also decent as it is attractive for many eastern Europeans who
tend to be well trained and not hyperexpensive.

~~~
Argorak
This is changing. Rents in Berlin are rising by more than 10% each year in
most areas.

------
anovikov
No details as usual. Can i immigrate to Germany as a self-employed?

~~~
CalRobert
Not sure about Germany, but if you're from the US look up "Dutch American
Friendship Treaty" if the Netherlands strikes your fancy.

------
nerfhammer
What about language barriers? Many German companies officially use English as
their business language on paper at least, but how true would this be for
startups?

~~~
rafifyalda
English will get you by in Berlin. If the startup has international employees,
then English will be spoken heavily inside the startup (usually).

Outside of your startup, you'll want to at least learn enough German to be
able to ask for things in a shop, order at restaurants. Though even if you
were to speak in English, you'll find most people will be able to respond in
English and help you out, but that depends on how far you travel. Once you
start getting out beyond the ring (metro system), you'll find the level of
English degrade.

One tip when you start out here: Genuinely apologise to someone that you do
not speak German in German, ask if they speak English in German, and they will
almost always be happy to speak in English. Start blurting out loudly in an
American-English accent and you may not receive the same level of hospitality.

Source: Live and worked for a few startups here in Berlin, speaking from
anecdotal evidence based on experiences from both German and expat friends

------
mbesto
Startups might like it, but investors don't. Bootstrapping startups might be
favorable in Berlin on the other hand.

------
jacques_chester
Australians have a special case: we can get work in the US on the E-3 visa,
which is much easier to obtain than a H1B.

------
zura
While we're at it, is it possible to opt out a pension/unemployment insurance
from the income tax?

------
cbhl
This story reminds me of those "Pivot to Canada" billboards you sometimes see
in the valley.

------
zobzu
because Germany has good laws and Berlin is a big city, yet EXTREMELY cheap.

The visa doesn't have all that much to do with it really. Most of the people
in the US don' need a US visa, and guess what, more of the Europeans are close
to Berlin. Crazy I know.

~~~
jrockway
_Most of the people in the US don 't need a US visa_

I'd say about half of my friends in the US are not US citizens, and their most
frequent topic of conversation is visas. If you want to just show up in the US
and work illegally, that's fine. But if you want to do it legally, visas are a
big deal.

~~~
zobzu
so you're saying half of the US population are not US citizens based on your
experience? Sure. Right.

------
tn13
Please re-post this when some startup company successfully files billion
dollar IPO.

------
seivan
Talent == Cheap labour.

