
Ask HN: Canadian visa woes. Should I try Australia? - visawoes
I came to Canada a few months back, looking for a Front-End &#x2F; Full-Stack Developer position. After months of search, I finally found a startup who was ready to sponsor me. After making me fly from Toronto to Vancouver, telling me they would like to &quot;go ahead&quot;, and wasting 45 days of my time (&quot;We&#x27;re talking to the lawyers&quot;) they stopped answering my emails. I&#x27;m in a fix now. My visa here expires soon, and I don&#x27;t think I can find a company here to sponsor me.<p>I am 23-year old, self-taught, with 4-years of experience and have an impressive portfolio. Most of my work has been around JavaScript - Angular, React, and Node. On the back-end, Laravel on PHP. I have been working on my own projects for the past few years, and make enough money to sustain. I am looking to work with an exciting startup, and settle down somewhere.<p>These are my options now:<p>1. Go to Sydney, Australia, and look for work sponsorship there<p>2. Get a 1-year diploma in Canada. It gives me a 1-year work visa. Then, find someone to sponsor me in those 2 years<p>I looked at UK, but getting a visa without a college degree seems quite hard. Also, I&#x27;d have to wait for 5+ years to get residency.<p>I don&#x27;t qualify for Working Holiday Visa.<p>Any advice? Is getting sponsorship with an Australian company any easier than Canada?
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ausvisaissues
I am also looking to go to Australia, and read up quite a bit about it. Below
is a rough summary (by me). It may contain errors.

Part 1: There are two ways to go about it. One option is to first get a
Skilled Immigrant Permanent Residence visa (189) and then apply for a job.

Another is to find an employer to sponsor a Skilled (Temporary) visa (457).

The advantages of permanent resident visa (Skilled Independent Visa, 189):

1\. Visa is permanent: you can change jobs

2\. You can enroll for public healthcare and get many public benefits (e.g.
child care rebates)

3\. You do not need to have a job offer to go to Australia

4\. A company does not need to sponsor your visa. This means that smaller
companies can employ you. For 99% of the jobs, you are equal to an Australian
citizen (some jobs like government/security jobs, you need to be a citizen)

5\. Children born during PR receives Aus citizenship.

6\. After 4 years, you can apply for Australian citizenship.

The problem with the 189 visa is that it is based on a point system. This
point system takes into account:

1\. Degree (or equivalent work experience), 2. Age, 3. English language
ability, 4.Work experience, 5\. Field of employment (should be on the Skilled
Occupations List). Software engineering is.

Another problem is that it can take quite a while to get it. The process is:

1\. Do a skills assessment (Australian Computer Society)

2\. Lodge expression of interest (now your watch begins ;) )

3\. Get an invitation to apply

4\. Apply (with police clearance, medical clearance, etc.…). Costs around
AUD$3000

~~~
ausvisaissues
Part 2:

The advantages of the temporary work (skilled) visa (457) is:

(1) Easier to obtain than 189, (2) Cheap and quick (within 6-8 weeks), (3) No
skills assessment, (4) lower English requirements, (5) you have 90 days to
find a new employer if you lose your job, (6) employer may be able to sponsor
you for a permanent visa after a while.

I think this visa is much better than equivalent visas in other countries.

The disadvantages of this visa is:

1\. You have to get private medical care (can be expensive)

2\. Private medical care has some waiting time ( _big_ problems if you get
pregnant within 12 months of entering Australia)

3\. Employers have to be recognized by DIBP (only larger well established
companies)

4\. Employers must do market testing and prove that they cannot fill the
position with an Australian citizen (less jobs)

PS: There are other variations on these visa schemes. For instance, if you get
state sponsorship, you can apply for a 190 visa (and receive more points).
There are other visa classes for recent graduates (485). There is also working
holiday visa (417). The impression that I get however is that 90% of people
either start with a 457 or 189 visa.

PPS: I encourage you to do a skills assessment to check if you qualify for a
189 visa. Here is the test:
[http://www.harriswake.com/skillselectpointscalculator](http://www.harriswake.com/skillselectpointscalculator)

For job search sites, use indeed.au and seek.au. Note that most jobs do not
sponsor 457 visas.

Also, all jobs on [http://www.austjobs.com/](http://www.austjobs.com/) sponsor
visas.

PPPS: Forgot to add: Melbourne is (IMHO) much better to live in than in
Sydney. Both are large cities (4 million+), but the cost of living in
Melbourne (rent) is much lower. See here:
[http://goo.gl/pCwKNO](http://goo.gl/pCwKNO)

~~~
tedmiston
And here is some aggregated data from Nomad List that might help you compare
short to medium-term living in Melbourne vs. Sydney.

    
    
                               | Melbourne | Sydney
        ---------------------- | --------- | ------
        Internet               | bad       | bad
        Fun                    | good      | great
        Nightlife              | good      | bad
        Free WiFi in city      | bad       | great
        Places to work from    | okay      | good
        A/C or heating         | great     | great
        Cost of living         | okay      | bad
        Quality of life        | good      | good
        Safety                 | good      | good
        Friendly to foreigners | good      | great
        English speaking       | great     | great
        Racial tolerance       | good      | good
        Female Friendly        | great     | good
        Gay Friendly           | good      | great
    

Admittedly the qualitative scale is subjective, but it is based on individual
responses.

[https://nomadlist.com/melbourne-
australia/scores](https://nomadlist.com/melbourne-australia/scores)

[https://nomadlist.com/sydney-australia/scores](https://nomadlist.com/sydney-
australia/scores)

------
stephenr
Where are you from? Most visa laws are related to the applicant's country of
citizenship.

A few points:

\- Australia is a great place to live (I am Australian, lived there till my
late 20s), but be aware that it's expensive compared to e.g. USA.

\- While you _can_ apply for a PR (permanent resident) visa from within
Australia, it's _much_ cheaper to do it from outside the country.

From a more general view I see two points here: You want to work as a
developer on cool projects, and you want to live somewhere nice.

To me, those are not necessarily related to each other. Remote working is
real, and often the nicest places to live (IMO) are the places where it _isn
't_ convenient to commute to a 'regular' office every day.

I first got into remote working through X-Team [1], and while I've moved on to
my own company now, I would still recommend them to anyone who wants to work
on amazing projects without being tied to an office in NYC, London or SV.

[1] [http://x-team.com](http://x-team.com)

~~~
visawoes
I am from India.

Sydney does seem quite expensive, but I'm okay with it.

 _You want to work as a developer on cool projects, and you want to live
somewhere nice._

That sums it up. I have been traveling and working remotely for 2+ years now.
It was fun a while, but I don't see myself doing it in the long run.

~~~
stephenr
I guess it depends what sort of lifestyle you want.

Remote working doesn't necessarily mean travelling. I've been "remote" working
since 2009, and in that time I've lived in 4 houses in two cities (2 in
Melbourne, and we've just moved into our second place since being in Thailand)

One thing to keep in mind is that the 'startup' industry is much less active
in Australia, and in my experience salaried tech jobs (as opposed to
contracts/b2b consultant type work) in Australia in general are quite low,
unless you're doing doing "enterprise" stuff for government/banks/etc.

------
jjcm
For what it's worth, at Atlassian we're hiring pretty heavily. I just started
in Sydney with them and they offered me a 4 year work visa with the option to
get permanent residency.

------
guillegette
My 2 cents.

Step 1: Apply for the work and holiday visa for Australia. Gives you 1 year of
working rights.

Step 2: Arrive to Sydney and look for a job. There is a lot of demand out
there so ONLY start working for a company that can sponsor your after 6
months. (457 visa)

Step 3: Work hard play hard and get sponsored (company pays for it, its super
easy)

Step 4: Stay in Australia for as long as you want, save money and then travel
the world.

Salaries? Check out seek.com.au

Source? myself I've done that.

~~~
visawoes
I don't qualify for Working Holiday Visa.

------
akg_67
Join any college program, convert to student visa in Canada. While on student
visa, primarily focus on finding job (studies are secondary). Once you find
job and get work authorization, drop out of college and start working. Go for
your option 2.

Anyway, for the long term, try to get any 4-year degree in IT/CS while working
(online, remote, part-time). The degree will help you in the future to
overcome bureaucracy. You might benefit from being in Canada if you want to
migrate to US.

------
lenova
Which Vancouver company left you hanging high and dry?

------
guessmyname
I find the background of this story ironic considering that every six months
the Canadian government but mostly Quebec sends people around the world to
motivate people with professional education and/or work experience to
immigrate there. I have a similar profile as OP but after six years and four
different attempts to immigrate to both Quebec (once) and Canada (three times)
I have decided to give up; even my Canadian co-workers say that my profile is
good. It doesn't makes sense why those two governments (apparently) don't
follow the progress of an immigrant to avoid what OP is currently
experiencing. An immigration process is so tedious that ending up wasting
time, energy and money is not affordable.

OP I hope you can find a good company to sponsor you.

~~~
tostitos1979
The Canadian immigration system is kafkaesque for some unlucky souls. The
rules change rapidly, the wait times reported online are not credible. All our
recently interactions have been beyond terrible.

My suggestion to the OP is consider applying for a student visa in Canada and
enroll in an undergrad program.

------
marak830
If you don't qualify for a work visa, I would advise to try and get an
extension there before going to aus.

Side note, I'm Australian and my wife is Japanese, beware that she had a bit
of a hard time there due to not being native(we left because of that about 4
years ago).

As for a visa while in aus, it was fairly expensive i remember thinking for
her(on a spouse visa so your millage may vary).

I wish you the best of luck, and for the record we were in Melbourne, so the
apparent dislike towards non Australians may be different in Sydney(the only
city I haven't lived in, in aus).

I wish you the best of luck nk matter your choice.

------
pesfandiar
Most large software companies here will do LMIA for you. How long do you have
left on your work permit? If you have at least 2-3 months and would like to
work on a cloud-based analytics product, shoot me an email. If you get hired,
and apply for a work permit, you can still be here on implied status until you
get it (i.e. kosher to stay, cannot easily come back if you leave though).

~~~
visawoes
Thanks, but I'm not super keen on working with an enterprise company. SAP and
Amazon are probably the two companies that don't see LMIA as an hindrance.

------
theviajerock
Hi, could you give me you email or some way to contact you? I am doing the
same procedure and I would like to ask you a couple of things. I am deciding
between Australia and Canada.

Thank you!

------
hackerboos
It's actually legal to work for foreign companies whilst in Canada on a
tourist visa. If that helps your situation.

------
viraptor
Why not look for sponsorship before moving over? That way you can try multiple
countries and move only if you do have something sorted out.

------
mb_72
2), inasmuch as I can't see how you can legally do 1).

~~~
visawoes
1\. I can come to Australia for 6 months on a visitor visa

~~~
mb_72
... which doesn't allow you to work or to look for work.

~~~
nish1500
It says on border.gov.au:

 _The Business Visitor stream is for people travelling to Australia for a
short business visit. This includes making a general business or employment
enquiry, negotiations or participating in a conference._

~~~
mb_72
6 months is not 'short', and you have - while negging me I presume -
overlooked the documentation requirements for such a visa:
[https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/600-/Visitor-
visa-(sub...](https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/600-/Visitor-
visa-\(subclass-600\)-Business-Visitor-Stream-document-checklist)

(bottom of page)

~~~
nish1500
I went through the same process to get Visa for Canada and the USA, only with
more documents.

------
iheartmemcache
Australia got really, really hard to emigrate into without a degree. Up until
3 or 4 years ago you could be a tattoo'd dude with a long list of minor
convictions (misdemeanors) and as long as you could ground a Hilti properly,
you'd basically be guaranteed a work visa. Most countries have a point system
where ~40% of it is 'do you have a bachelors', another 30% will be a job offer
in an industry that's understaffed (e.g. Australia's mining boom in the late
00s, early 10s, as a result of Chinese demand for iron ore (11% of it's
domestic export, 2001, tied with _wool_ ; 2011: between 50-55% of domestic
exports (wool had decreased to ~5%) needed a lot of blue-collar folk from the
States to take foreman positions (i.e. those positions were in drastic demand,
so, barring a felony, a high school drop-out with US domestic experience would
command 6 figures). Sydney rules, Melbourne is fun too, but they're both
expensive as hell and it's not without it's racism either. I haven't had the
unfortunate experience of such events but I've been fairly lucky in that
regard (even in rural Alabama I get along well, minus a few comments about a
Somerville accent that comes out after a few drinks).

Up until ~2 years ago, New Zealand was both a) actively seeking skilled
laborers with or without degrees and b) had a pretty healthy tech scene. I've
heard recently things have become far more difficult. 5+ year for PR/green-
card status is really about course for any nation where anyone would want to
emigrate to. I'm sure you could expedite the process if you were looking for
citizenship in Yemen, but enjoy your stay haha.

I'm fluent in Spanish and was considering buying a vacation home in Seville
when their economy crashed. I didn't even want work visa status (I'd be a net
benefit for their nation, just consuming their alcohol, culture and women),
much less EU citizenship. Despite being well-educated, not seeking a work
visa, liquid enough to prove I'm not going to be a burden on their healthcare
or an economic migrant looking to take away their domestic jobs - still the
path to permanent residency was enormous. Berlin is my favorite city of all.
My German is conversational and don't get me started on the tedious process
just to PR - since I don't have German blood, I don't think I can even
naturalize. I know some unfortunate souls with PhD's in the hard sciences who
have been in "waiting for US Green Card" limbo for > 12 years (and these guys
aren't going to be picking fruit - their return-on-value would be enormous --
if there were a commodity of specific tranches of humans on which I could
trade, I'd place a few hundred k USD on some bright men and women I know).

You're in a really good position - stay in India, establish corporate work in
Lichtenstein or the Isle of Man or whatever, and shake enough hands to
establish the contacts required find the demand-side of work. Then supply the
labor for whatever is in demand at the time. If you can find reliable, skilled
labor in India, arbitrage off the USD/INR gap and make a fortune. When my
firms at capacity, we outsource to basically every nation[1]. Engineers from
the former Soviet states are more or less 100% reliable and the quality of
code is on par if not better than the average US citizen @ 40% the wage (plus
I don't have to pay their 8% end of SS).

Certain nations offer (or previously did offer, I'm not sure if the policies
remain) immediate citizenship if invest X amount of money in their domestic
economy. You show Y amount of liqudity, Z amount of capital assets and
reasonable proof that you'll hire $num of their nationals. Ireland had that
policy during their economic crash (no idea if it's still there, but that's a
powerful Schengen Area passport for something cheap like a million in capital
assets, 25% of which should be fungible), and Latvia (?) I think was another
one.

[1] GSA Alliant fed work notwithstanding. In that case we do what everyone
else does and hire mediocre staff that'll pass SF-86 clearance, pay them a
nominal salary, bill them out at triple to the DoD and let them sit around
filling seats, playing with their phone until the duration of the contract is
over, while one or two talented engineers do the bulk of the work and get a
150% performance bonus.

