
Automotive Grade Linux Platform Debuts on the 2018 Toyota Camry - doener
https://www.automotivelinux.org/announcements/2017/05/30/automotive-grade-linux-platform-debuts-on-the-2018-toyota-camry
======
sircastor
Infotainment system developer here, A number of people have mentioned
preferring/wanting Android Auto/CarPlay in their infotainment systems, and
that it would be preferable to many of the systems that exist in current
vehicles. I have a couple of thoughts.

The Infotainment system is one of the most user-facing components of the
vehicle. It's something that can reflect the brand identity of the vehicle,
and most OEMs are not eager to cede that space to Apple or Google. Google and
(especially) Apple certainly aren't interested in mixing their branding with a
manufacturers.

The utilization of AGL doesn't necessarily mean CarPlay or Android Auto are
out. AGL is a system, and CP/AA are applications.

While I certainly believe there are a lot of terrible systems out there, I
also think there are a lot of systems that people don't like because they
never took the time to figure out how to use them. Cars aren't like phones.
When you're in them, you're most likely driving and you don't have the
bandwidth to figure out how to do something as well as drive. A while back I
saw a study that concluded if you didn't learn something about your
infotainment system in the first 3 days, you never do.

I encourage you to actually identify the things you find
confusing/frustrating/difficult about your vehicle and write a letter to the
manufacturer. Customer input makes a big difference. And no, "It's not
CarPlay" doesn't help. That's kind of like sitting down to Windows and
complaining to Microsoft that they didn't give you macOS.

(Thoughts are my own, of course)

~~~
captainmuon
No offense, but I have yet to find a infotainment system that I liked. They
reflect the brand identity of the vehicle, yes, but badly. The majority of in-
car-entertainment systems are clunky, slow, and look outdated. The hardware is
already at release a few years behind, and you can't easily replace it. (This
also applied to smart TVs, and to some extent to in-flight-entertainment).

What I would love is a simple standard for aftermarket radios, like you used
to have. One connector, and it wires up to the speakers, a display (that you
can replace), and all the hardware buttons e.g. in the steering wheel. You'd
have a one-way connection from the car to the device for information like
speed.

When I buy a car, I don't want an integrated entertainment system. I want to
buy a system from a stereo manufacturer that integrates with the card.

And I want the _option_ to buy an "in-car-ITX" barebone from NewEgg, pop in an
SD card with a LibreICE distribution or whatever, and roll my own
entertainment system if I like.

I want things like changeable themes, Spotify support, information about the
currently playing radio song (even if not supported by the station), and so
on. I want fluid animations and no latency, readable text, and idiot-proof
usage. That really shouldn't be so hard.

~~~
mschuster91
> What I would love is a simple standard for aftermarket radios, like you used
> to have. One connector, and it wires up to the speakers, a display (that you
> can replace), and all the hardware buttons e.g. in the steering wheel. You'd
> have a one-way connection from the car to the device for information like
> speed.

That would be nice, but unfortunately it has a number of drawbacks:

1) "one connector" does not work well with today's 20+ speakers

2) display interface? Either you do it using DSI as interface (which is fucked
up so bad that a Raspberry Pi supports exactly one specific type of display -
and when even the Pi hackers can't get it done, I seriously doubt car makers
can), or you use HDMI which will lead to vibration issues. Furthermore, the
range of display resolutions, aspect ratios etc (you can have anything from
320x240 to retina FHD)... no way ever that radio/car makers will implement
this.

3) Interface to rest of car (HW buttons, speed feedback, and maybe even
GPS/IMU for navigation): no standard for this except CAN-bus, which is a
security hellhole itself...

I agree that having the option would be nice but it's a real niche market.

~~~
captainmuon
I don't think it is that unrealistic. It seems that for 1), aftermarket radios
are available for most cars and can utilize the speakers. There are various
adapters available. For 2) I can imagine HDMI or DVI, if necessary with a more
sturdy connector. Stock monitors have supported multiple resolutions for 20
years. For 3), it seems there is information available to access this from CAN
or LIN buses or ODB. Lots of hobbyists do this. I can imagine you could buy an
adapter for, say, "Ford 2010-2014", like you can do with various aftermarket
parts.

It might be a niche market, but so are all kinds of aftermarket mods for cars.
And I think if somebody did to car stereos what Nest did to thermostats, it
would be phenomenal.

------
ausjke
Checked the software stack, it's basically: Yocto(OS framework) +
Tizen(application framework) + Genivi(infotainment). Yocto is totally over-
engineered and only RTOS vendors really enjoy it as they can sell services on
top of that, it's a nightmare for small players, they should just use
Buildroot the alternative to save money and time. Tizen has never reached what
it wanted to be, partially because of Android. Genivi has been around for a
few years but I have yet to see it took any market share on the infotainment
side, many infotainment systems are just using Android instead as well.

Actually because Camry is using this stack, my next car will certainly not be
it. How am I going to upgrade the kernel with patches every few weeks?

~~~
jcelerier
I don't think that Tizen is used as an application framework.

In the HMI architecture document, they mention Qt, HTML5 and JavaFX for apps:

[https://wiki.automotivelinux.org/_media/eg-ui-
graphics/17080...](https://wiki.automotivelinux.org/_media/eg-ui-
graphics/170802_agl_hmi-fw_arch_0_2_4.pdf)

the WindowManager spec seems to assume Qt as default:
[https://wiki.automotivelinux.org/_media/agl-hmi-
fw_windowman...](https://wiki.automotivelinux.org/_media/agl-hmi-
fw_windowmanager_spec_v0.1.0.pdf)

and most of the UI demos seems to use it too :
[https://gerrit.automotivelinux.org/gerrit/#/admin/projects/A...](https://gerrit.automotivelinux.org/gerrit/#/admin/projects/AGL/meta-
agl-demo)

I could not find apps built with Tizen's native toolkit (EFL).

~~~
pjmlp
Tizen has had multiple UI reboots since the Meego days.

The latest one is .NET Core + Xamarin.Forms.

[https://developer.tizen.org/development/tizen-.net-
preview/i...](https://developer.tizen.org/development/tizen-.net-
preview/introduction)

I really don't thrust anything useful will ever come out of it, given how
Samsung has managed it thus far.

------
Xcelerate
Well this is interesting. I purchased a 2018 Toyota Camry in August (first
ever car purchase), and I absolutely love everything about it _except_ the
Toyota Entune 3.0 system. Lack of apps, useless Scout GPS navigation gimmick,
and it doesn't even show album cover art while you're driving.

When I was comparing cars, the lack of CarPlay was the only (massive) downside
with the Camry, but the other features of the car were so good that I went
with it in spite of it.

I wonder what AGL means for the driver. I would love to tweak the OS myself,
but I doubt Toyota would let a customer flash their own version of the code
(at least not without violating the warranty). I suppose it could mean more
frequent updates with better features. Curious to see how this plays out.

~~~
twblalock
I'm a happy Prius owner, but I bought mine before CarPlay existed. I'm not
sure I would buy another Prius to replace my current one, primarily because of
the lack of CarPlay and Android Auto.

The Entune interface just isn't very good, and it's not going to get better.
This isn't unique to Toyota -- no matter how good the system in your car is,
it will seem very outdated after 5 years. In contrast, CarPlay and Android
auto are great now and will improve with software updates over time.

~~~
BoorishBears
The lack of CarPlay made the Volt vs Prius Prime a pretty easy choice. That...
and the design of the Prime, but I digress.

------
rothbardrand
I've been a loyal toyota buyer for over 30 years. But I will not buy another
car, unless it has first class CarPlay support. (and it should support the
android equivalent as well) Having to interact with the phone while driving is
a safety problem and Apple (and presumably android too) delivered a great
solution several years ago-- no excuse for not implementing it.

Especially given that auto makers really suck at this kind of software. My car
has navigation and all the bells and whistles (was not a choice when buying)
and I ONLY use it as a bluetooth audio receiver, effectively. IT's just
terrible for everything else.

I'm drawing a line in the sand here. I will buy a 10 year old used something
if I have to and put in an aftermarket CarPlay system. (They're also making it
harder to put in aftermarket systems..... ok you going to do that, then you
better make yours first class.)

I love that with my current toyota when I get in my phone hooks back up and
starts playing music, but I hate having to use the phone screen for navigation
and the like, since there are no good auto mounts I can find. [1]

[1] I have a vent based magnetic one. The magnetic attachment is great, but
the vent vanes swing back and forth and its never been quite satisfying...
right now if I turn at the right speed the phone swings over and turns off the
radio by hitting its button. annoying.

~~~
phugoid
> Having to interact with the phone while driving is a safety problem

Surprised and dismayed if this is the prevailing viewpoint, that using a phone
while driving is a necessity that should be made as safe as possible.

~~~
rothbardrand
I'm guessing you're not thinking about GPS, are you?

------
subway
Based on everything I've read about automotive software development, I'm
impressed they've managed to degrade the Linux kernel enough to call it
Automotive Grade.

~~~
BoorishBears
I found out my car's infotainment system can run HTML/Js/CSS apps. The
performance guidelines give you a great hint about the hardware (or lack
thereof), they discourage using percentages for example. And have strict
versions of Angular 1 and jQuery you're allowed to use

~~~
sircastor
Mazda by chance(?) - I've worked in this space, they're interesting systems. A
number of OEMs have explored web stacks as an option for applications. It's
very accessible for vendors to work with. Dealing with the system resource
limitations is a huge deal.

~~~
BoorishBears
GM/OnStar's "Next Generation Infotainment" headunits

------
twiddo
The thing I hated most about my automotive purchase was the nav. I'm not sure
any built-in, eventual bit-rotten nav would be any better though.

On the one hand, we can't even get manufacturers of our phones to keep the
software on their devices up to date past a couple years and somehow they're
our last hope for your in-dash media player? I guess some people jump to a new
lease every couple years, but I don't see the mobile model being the future of
car ownership.

On the other hand, cars have mostly avoided the security disasters of other
embedded devices so it might be fine. Unless of course, we make them into the
eventual IoT device everyone wants them to be. I mean these software-
controlled navs now need to both downloads updated maps and show you engine
diagnostics. Doesn't this seem like a bad idea waiting to happen?

It sucks that only the low-quality models can escape these devices. Soon it'll
be like Smart TVs where your choices are 480x600 or 4K Samsung
SpywarePro.patchfix-m2015.

------
mrpippy
Toyota's previous generation of head units (all Entune-branded, started
rolling out in 2013/2014) used different hardware platforms and OSes,
depending on the supplier. But they all ran a UI that was virtually identical,
although there were some very minor differences.

The Panasonic-made units ran QNX, Pioneer and Fujitsu Ten units ran Linux.
Presumably this means no more QNX.

------
b1daly
This just reminded me of my personal pet "first world problem."

The move from hardware based interfaces to touch screen interfaces is an
astonishing regression in usability.

Older car "audio" systems could be controlled with simple knob and button
interfaces. This would allow the user to fine tune the audio playback, as well
as find radio stations, without having to look at the device.

Asside from picking the music, and adjusting the volume, my most desired
adjustments are to: bass, treble, L/R balance, front/back balance.

In my current run of the mill, screen based, "infotainment" system, doing this
without endanger myself and others, requires stopping the vehicle, and
undertaking a series of awkward and unresponsive controls, none of which are
accessed on the same screen!

The whole concept of a "touch screen" interface in a car is dubious.
Ironically, touch screens require visual attention, due to lack of haptic
feedback, and inconsistent UI patterns.

If I ever"upgrade" my car audio, I'm going back to an old-school style unit,
with an aux plugin.

~~~
tzs
Worse, I believe some cars are now doing this with almost all of the controls,
not just the entertainment system controls.

Controls I want to operate without looking at them: fan, temperature, air
routing, defrost, windshield wipers, high beams, turn signals.

~~~
djsumdog
I was surprised with a friend's Jeep where the seat warmers were in the touch
screen interface. Really? On my old 2003 wagon, they were just dials.

~~~
chiph
To be fair, on a Jeep the screen is probably easier to seal against dust/dirt
intrusion. But otherwise, I agree and much prefer buttons/knobs. Also - heated
seats? On a Jeep? Being uncomfortable is part of what you're paying for...

------
interfixus
Can someone explain to me, honestly, why I would want an 'entertainmaint'
system built into my car? I do long commutes, I drive a lot, I am an
occasional truck driver, I have crossed Australia east to west more than once
- and I still don't get it. My car is the one place in the world where I stand
a decent chance of escaping the all-pervading goddamn film and music industry.

~~~
mark212
Podcasts? Audiobooks? I've had some really great experiences on long drives
listening to thought-provoking non-fiction audiobooks. Recommend it highly.
(Of course a pair of headphones and your device of choice can probably do just
as well if not better.)

~~~
abpavel
Headphones in a car is generally a bad idea, as you wouldn't hear car horns,
sirens, and other important audible signals that might prove critical.

------
mark212
They all suck. BMW, Ford, Honda, Infiniti are all ones I've had ample
experience with over the past year and they're all horrible. I've gone back to
headphones and it's glorious (I use maps very rarely, just audio content)

~~~
sircastor
I absolutely love our 2017 Mini Infotainment system. It's not perfect by any
means (It's BMWs), but I find that it meets all my needs, is very fast and
responsive.

Not sure where you are, but here it's illegal to drive with headphones.

~~~
DKnoll
Even if it's legal it's a terrible idea.

~~~
InitialLastName
As a non-car road user, I'm with you. mark212, please don't do this. You're
making the world a more dangerous place for everyone, with (extremely limited)
benefits only to yourself.

------
ocdtrekkie
Personally, the last thing I want is Silicon Valley engineering at work on my
car: I'm happy with the built-in console of my RAV4. It's the most reliable
piece of software I've ever ran.

------
stonewhite
I think why Toyota is spearheading this AGL is related to its prior software
failure related deaths[1], considering broad the scope of AGl: "..advanced
driver assistance systems (ADAS) and autonomous driving.."

[1]: [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/toyota-unintended-
acceleration-...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/toyota-unintended-acceleration-
has-killed-89/)

------
martin1975
Hope Entune dies a horrible death real soon now.

------
zguig52
Got a prius with touch and go, I connect my phone with bluetooth and I can
control all my music and phone calls from the steering wheel without having to
look to anything. Good job Toyota for supporting open innovation and sharing
code with other car manufacturers! I enjoy the way you design car for ecology.
Supporting linux is top. I hope they will support userspace apps so end user
can also be part of the car innovation!

------
yitchelle
How are these infortainment systems rated for Functional System? Last time I
looked (about 7 years ago), Linux was only suitable for QM rated systems, and
that was questionable already.

~~~
ianhowson
They're not. That side of the car systems is firewalled off because of the
tyre fire that is Linux/Android/Internet connectivity.

------
Ice_cream_suit
I have a Prius C with Toyota's infotainment system. It works fairly well.

------
amelius
Reminds me of this joke: [1], which may now become a reality.

[1] [http://mistupid.com/jokes/msvgm.htm](http://mistupid.com/jokes/msvgm.htm)

------
crb002
How is this different than Windriver Linux?

------
bitmapbrother
There's an increasing amount of people that won't buy a new car unless it has
Android Auto/CarPlay compatibility. To ignore these consumers and think that
you have a better solution is ignorant to what's happening around you.

~~~
mrpippy
Exactly. I think this will be Toyota’s last generation of head units without
CarPlay/Android Auto, simply because all the competitors now have it, and the
complaints will only get louder from here. In particular, when every Toyota
reviewed by Consumer Reports lists “no CarPlay” as a negative, and every
competitor uses it against them, their current position will become untenable

------
t1o5
Automotive makers like FCA is still sticking with QNX and Harman made
headunits hardware for many years. Having programmed on them, it was a pain
with so many constraints while we have watches 100x more powerful than them.
While the UI/UX and performance of headunit telematics apps are not the forte
of automotive manufacturers, they need to change with times. Headunits are
still marketed as an add-on with which the manufacturers can up the price by
several thousands. While too much of an entertainment system on a car is a
distraction even though they have speed lockouts, a little bit of improvement
will be a welcome change. Its not that they should have APIs for CAN Bus
access, but can piggy back on CarPlay for a good music & nav system.

