
Smoking Cannabis Associated with Dopamine Deficits in the Brain - jrs235
http://www.iflscience.com/brain/smoking-too-much-dope-causes-dopamine-deficits-brain
======
madaxe_again
Uh, reading the study, smoking cannabis _then taking amphetamine_ causes
dopamine deficits, and they don't explore whether this is transient or
permanent.

I smoke more weed than I probably should, but I had a screwed up dopamine
system to start with - the genes don't lie.

Actually, on that note, perhaps people with preexisting dopamine deficits are
more likely to become heavy cannabis users because it's the only way that they
can experience dopamine - going through life with people going "what an
achievement! Aren't you proud??" and only being able to reply "meh, I
should've done better than first place" or whatever sucks. I can only reflect
upon and feel good about what I've done with my life when stoned. I don't have
a reward cycle, otherwise - I learned to motivate myself with a punishment
cycle instead, and only now am I slowly unlearning it.

~~~
mayank
> Uh, reading the study, smoking cannabis then taking amphetamine causes
> dopamine deficits, and they don't explore whether this is transient or
> permanent.

Yes, the title is extremely sensationalized, as is sadly the norm with science
reporting [1]. However, the results are important when you consider the number
of teenagers on ADHD medication (generally amphetamines) who might be trying
cannabis.

[1]
[http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?n=1174](http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?n=1174)

~~~
jrs235
> Yes, the title is extremely sensationalized,

Yes, the original title is sensaionalized and didn't actually agree or align
with the contents of the article which is why when I submitted this story I
changed the title for HN to be what it is above "Smoking Cannabis Associated
with Dopamine Deficits in the Brain". I suppose I could have used correlated
instead of associated but the article seemed to link the two fairly poorly and
I felt associated is a lower threshold of a link than correlation. I was more
interested in the discussion this would invoke from HNers. Thank you HNers for
your thoughts and insights.

------
erokar
All known drugs of abuse increase dopamine and likewise cause decrease in
dopamine during drug withdrawal [1]. Since the participants in the study in
question were chronic cannabis users who stayed abstinent 5-7 days before the
brain scans [2], it is plausible to attribute the results to the cannabis
withdrawal. It would be interesting to see the results of a similar experiment
where the subjects were given enough time for their brains to normalize the
dopamine receptors (let's say at least a month). My hypotesis is that their
dopamine levels would be closer to normal.

1\.
[http://perspectivesinmedicine.cshlp.org/content/2/8/a012229....](http://perspectivesinmedicine.cshlp.org/content/2/8/a012229.full)

2\.
[http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/mp201621...](http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/mp201621a.html)

------
erokar
Link to
abstract:[http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/mp201621...](http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/mp201621a.html)

The abstract doesn't really state if they attempted to test the effect of
cannabis on dopamine with ongoning chronic use or after abstinence. It seems
to be the latter, though, since the users stayed abstinent for 5-7 days before
the brain scans. That's a rater short time for the brain to "recover" from
chronic cannabis use.

It is also worth nothing that they measured dopamine binding by administrating
amphetamine.

~~~
aridiculous
Also, I'm having trouble finding what satisfies the condition of 'severe
dependence'. Did anyone catch it?

------
Alupis
It's rather interesting to me, that every time one of these studies or
articles is published, people crawl out of the woodwork shouting denials and
rejection.

People, for some reason, want to cling to this naive idea that cannabis
consumption has zero negative effects.

Can't we all just accept that it is indeed harmful to your body and brain,
especially if used habitually? Continue to use it as you wish, but understand
it very well is causing long term harm, just as any other sin-of-choice! Is
that really so rejectionable?

~~~
takno
There exists a political climate where any negative effects are seized upon as
evidence that cannabis should remain banned, however inapplicable (for example
because they are a small study of chronic users after a week's withdrawal). In
such circumstances it is often couterproductive to hold nuanced views.

~~~
DanBC
> In such circumstances it is often couterproductive to hold nuanced views.

That's what parent poster is asking for.

Any time I post about cannabis on HN i have to include the line "I am strongly
in favour of drug legalisation" or tediously predictable replies accusing me
of shilling for the government appear.

And my position - that for some people smoking large amounts of cannabis is
probably a bad idea (especially if they've young; have a history of psychosis;
or have a family history of psychosis) - doesn't feel particularly un-nuanced.

------
exabrial
Sort of off topic... but why is everyone still "smoking" cannabis? Why not
vape, edible, etc? I'm fairly certain putting any kind of smoke in your lungs
cannot be healthy!

~~~
exelius
Edibles kind of suck TBH. Everyone's body digests and metabolizes things at a
different rate, so while one brownie may get me absolutely stoned for 4 hours,
my friend may need to eat 3 to get the same effect. Also, edibles take
anywhere from 30 to 90 minutes to kick in -- you don't get the immediate
effect you get from inhaling it.

Vapes are better, but the quality varies widely. THC is not water-soluble, so
you need a hydrocarbon solvent (usually butane) to extract it and dilute it
into enough of a liquid that it won't separate. Those vapes are actually
pretty good and hit almost like smoking a pipe, but then again you're
breathing in solvents along with it. Also, this type of liquid is close to
impossible to make yourself -- at least safely (since it requires subjecting
volatile solvents to high pressures and temperature).

There are "solvent free" blends that use things like coconut oil, but IMO
those vapes don't work nearly as well and give a very thin vapor that is very
hard to draw on. For this reason, some people prefer "dabbing" which is
basically taking refined THC (in either solid or paste form) and burning it at
very high temperatures, then inhaling the smoke. That way you get high without
solvents or the majority of the burnt plant material, but a dabbing setup is
expensive and it's really only feasible in places where you can easily buy the
"wax" (i.e. Colorado).

If you mean the hot air vaporizers... they tend to be expensive and use twice
as much material as smoking it, plus they don't "hit" like a pipe or bong (you
have to inhale for a much longer time to get the same effect).

~~~
c22
> Also, this type of liquid is close to impossible to make yourself -- at
> least safely (since it requires subjecting volatile solvents to high
> pressures and temperature).

I built a closed loop (butane retaining) essential oils extractor for around
$1500 and I never felt unsafe operating it. There are no high pressures
involved, I pull the system to a slight vacuum then flood it with butane to
around 15 psi (all my valves, ports, and joints are rated to 300 psi). There
are no high temperatures involved either, butane boils at 30.2°F so I just
leave the system at room temperature with the gas reclaimer running till all
my solvent is back in the cylinder. The largest risk is actually developing a
butane leak and flooding the area with an odorless flammable gas, but basic
precautions can protect against this.

~~~
exelius
Then you are far beyond the skills of your average garage mechanic, my friend.

~~~
c22
Really? Cause I just sourced appropriately rated threaded components from the
internet and screwed them together with thread sealant from the auto shop. The
hardest part was probably modding a minifridge to run on its back so I could
fit my receiving tank in it for faster retrieval. The craziest mechanicals are
probably inside the appion g5 refrigerant reclaimer and bargain basement
vacuum pump I got off ebay.

In fact, if I think about it this was probably my first real project as a
"maker", my design document was literally a single sheet of graph paper. Since
then I've embarked on much more ambitious projects (frame-up electric bicycle,
cnc plasma cutter, modular light up dance floor...) and I feel like my skills
have probably increased many-fold over where I was at the time. If I were to
build another one today I'd probably introduce considerably more complexity
(electronically actuated valves with process automation for example, perhaps
co2 as a solvent which would require cooling with liquid nitrogen). Shit, at
the time I think my toolbag consisted of a screwdriver and an adjustable
spanner.

------
BFatts
The article and the title are wayyy out of parallel. The title says "There is
a definite link between cannabis and dopamine levels, and too much will cause
a deficit!!"

Whereas, in the article it clearly says "Nope, we didn't see any causal
effect. The patients could have had a deficit already and we wouldn't know."
Are the title, copy, and image editors all different people?

------
excalibur
Let them eat cake!

------
theboywho
"However, the researchers also point out that they “cannot show a causal
relationship” between cannabis use and dopamine deficit, explaining that they
can’t be sure"

Ok thanks bye.

~~~
dang
Please don't post unsubstantive comments to Hacker News. Glib dismissals (like
this one) are among the worst forms of this, so please avoid those in
particular.

