
Dark Patterns – User Interfaces Designed to Trick People [video] - alexpoulsen
http://darkpatterns.org
======
saberworks
Does it count if there's no user interface? Amazon has my email address, I've
been a customer since the late-nineties. They keep inventing new email lists
and signing me up for them. Each time I get a new "newsletter" it says
something like, "You got this message because you're subscribed to the 'Tablet
News' newsletter." I click the unsubscribe link to remove myself from it.
Along with the unsubscribe link there's a link to my subscriptions. When I go
there, it only shows the ones I want (the specific authors I'm following). I
want to unsubscribe not only from this latest list you just signed me up for,
but also from all future lists you may want to sign me up for. I really don't
want to get any unsolicited marketing email from you. Really. I don't want it.
Please let me out.

Also stop letting marketplace sellers email me begging for feedback after
every marketplace item I accidentally order. I try my best to not order
marketplace seller items anymore but when I accidentally do (or buy a gift for
someone that is only offered this way) I always end up getting emails from
these guys. Are you sharing my email address with them? Does unsubscribing or
responding to them share my email address with them? I have no idea. There is
never anything useful and it's impossible to unsubscribe from all past and
future marketplace emails which is really annoying. Come on, amazon, I really
want to love you and continue shopping there but it's getting to the point
that I'd rather go to wal-mart! (ok not really)

~~~
bottled_poe
Not just Amazon, I am constantly clicking through those unsubscribe links but
just get auto-signed up for new lists. Fuck you Amazon and anyone else that
does this. I'll buy your junk when and if I need to. Leave me alone and stop
wasting my life.

~~~
username223
Never click a spammer's "unsubscribe" links -- that just tells them they have
a valid account. If you use a big email provider like gmail, flag them as
spam. Otherwise, make a rule in your mail client to automatically file
anything from their domain to the trash.

~~~
test1235
I've had good success with unsubscribing from legitimate mailing lists using
the links at the bottom of an email. It's not the company's fault if I
unthinkingly subscribed to their newsletters - they shouldn't have all their
emails forever tagged as spam for my mistake.

Real spam however, rarely makes it into my inbox - it gets filtered out and
deleted without ever being opened.

~~~
nothrabannosir
> It's not the company's fault if I unthinkingly subscribed to their
> newsletters - they shouldn't have all their emails forever tagged as spam
> for my mistake.

It is. Default checked "subscribe" boxes during sign in, hidden settings, new
lists which you are auto subscribed to; it's a never ending battle and the
incentives are wrong. If there was no unsubscribe link but only the spam
button, publishers would be _much_ clearer about these things.

Ironically, the unsubscribe link has probably led to more spam, rather than
less.

~~~
douche
Half the time, clicking the unsubscribe button leads you to another form that
is almost impossible to comprehend, which results in (maybe) unsubscribing you
from one list, but subscribing you to fourteen other newsletters and update
and special offer lists, for a net _increase_ in spam.

~~~
mnw21cam
If the email says "click here to unsubscribe", then it should do exactly what
it says. Taking you to a page that allows you subsequently unsubscribe is not
sufficient.

And yes, you should only ever follow links for companies that you are
confident are not spamming you out of the blue, because of the danger that you
are just confirming your email address is active.

My other gripe is that I'm not sure how anyone is going to tell that I have
clicked on a word in an email, given that it's displayed on an xterm. But if
they say that by clicking on it I am unsubscribed, it's their problem to make
sure it happens.

------
cle
One pattern that I consider "dark", but don't see in this list, is using
loaded options on a dialog box. One that I often see in apps is like:

    
    
        Rate our app!  
        <OK> <Not Yet>  
    

Those really get under my skin because the developer is clearly trying to play
a psychological trick on me, but it's so brazen and obvious that it just
pisses me off. And bigger companies do it too (e.g. Google).

~~~
artursapek
There's a tumblr for that! They call it "confirm shaming".

[http://confirmshaming.tumblr.com/](http://confirmshaming.tumblr.com/)

And yeah, it's UX cancer.

~~~
tgb
This one might be the best: [https://copyhackers.com/2014/01/fallen-scuzzy-
design-trend-p...](https://copyhackers.com/2014/01/fallen-scuzzy-design-trend-
pop-ups/) (Note the content of the article, then move your mouse up to try to
go to close the tab. Irony!)

~~~
wingerlang
Did you read the content yourself? They are saying that the "show before
close" is a good thing, so what's the irony?

Read the "Step Into The Light" section.

~~~
tgb
It's not the pop-up that's ironic per se, it's the phrasing of the "no"
button.

------
cs702
Great video and great website.

My only nitpick: the author wants the industry to agree on a "code of ethics."

Unfortunately, such exhortations strike me as naive. They are unlikely to
work, because the truly bad actors will continue to use dark patterns
regardless, putting pressure on all other actors to follow suit. The key
challenge is not in getting the good actors to do the right thing, but in
preventing the bad actors from doing the wrong thing.

Meanwhile, even sophisticated consumers like HN members pay a cognitive or
financial cost to deal with dark patterns every day, which are prevalent
throughout the web. Everyone I know is sick and tired of this crap.

The only viable solution I can think of is regulation in the form of a
consumer-protection agency, working with the industry, that can fine bad
actors up the wazoo.

Does anyone here have a better suggestion?

~~~
soared
I agree and that goal sounds similar to the goal of Kill Analytics [1]. "The
industry" doesn't even exist as an entity. Gov regulation seems like the only
viable way to fix it. But on the other hand, Google AdSense has done a lot to
improve advertising online. Popups and bad ads used to be waaay worse than
they are now (not that they are okay now). So maybe we do just need a few big
players to step up and change things.

[1] [https://hello-kill.github.io/](https://hello-kill.github.io/)

~~~
alphapapa
> Gov regulation seems like the only viable way to fix it.

So we can have more "This website uses cookies, okay?!?!?" banners popping up
all over the place? No thanks.

Besides, do you really want a bureaucrat telling you how to design your web
site, with penalties enforceable by law?

~~~
nommm-nommm
>Besides, do you really want a bureaucrat telling you how to design your web
site, with penalties enforceable by law?

"Bureaucrats" already tell you how to design your website. There is already
laws against some forms of deceitful advertising, unfair trade practices, and
information sharing and the like. For example, let's say I was working to
design an airline ticket booking site...

[https://www.transportation.gov/policy/aviation-
policy/airlin...](https://www.transportation.gov/policy/aviation-
policy/airline-rules-fares)

>For both domestic and international markets, carriers must provide disclosure
of the full price to be paid, including government taxes/fees as well as
carrier surcharges, in their advertising, on their websites and on the
passenger’s e-ticket confirmation. In addition, carriers must disclose all
fees for optional services through a prominent link on their homepage, and
must include information on e-ticket confirmations about the free baggage
allowance and applicable fees for the first and second checked bag and carry-
on.

How about those hotel "resort fees?" Currently they FTC says they are OK as
long as they are disclosed before booking. So a hotel can advertise $20/night
but when you go to book say "lol btw there's also a $30 resort fee." This of
course makes comparison shopping impossible and exists for no other reason to
deceive you. Rumor has it the FTC is going to backtrack on the policy and
disallow separate resort fees.

~~~
alphapapa
Those aren't web site design issues, they're truth-in-advertising and business
practice issues, which apply to all forms of advertising and business.

I'm talking about technical and design issues, like requiring every web site
in the EU to pop up a stupid banner while you're trying to read something that
blocks the content just to say, "Hey! We use cookies! Got it?" Now imagine
taking that to the next level, with pages of regulations saying where and how
other form elements must be laid out on the screen. Imagine another banner
popping up on every EU web site saying, "Hey! Here's the link to our privacy
policy! Got it?" Then clicking that away stores a cookie, which pops up the
cookie banner... All because some bureaucrat who doesn't even know what an
HTTP cookie is wrote a regulation requiring everyone on the whole continent to
acquiesce to the bureaucrat's ignorance so he can claim to be pro-consumer and
privacy-conscious and get reelected.

You want more of that?

~~~
erlehmann_
> I'm talking about technical and design issues, like requiring every web site
> in the EU to pop up a stupid banner while you're trying to read something
> that blocks the content just to say, "Hey! We use cookies! Got it?"

When I worried about the impact of the the EU cookie directive I read it.
Surprisingly, it only requires Cookie notifications for web sites that use
cookies for purposes that are not strictly necessary for the web site to
function. This means that the operators of web pages that show cookie
notifications are probably spying on their users for advertising (or other)
purposes. The EU cookie directive only makes this obvious.

I think EU politicians know what cookies are and how they are used. You can
see that in the list of cookies exempt from consent:

• session IDs

• authentication cookies

• user-centric security cookies

• session-limited multimedia player cookies

• social network cookies (for logged in members of the social network)

Source:
[http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm](http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm)

~~~
swyman
Thanks for all that info. It's really nice to have both source material and a
reasonable summary.

------
serg_chernata
There's no search but I'm curious if LinkedIn is included. I never took
screenshots, unfortunately, but I feel like they've had close to 5 in my own
experience alone.

~~~
bduerst
LinkedIn is one of the most common examples when talking about dark patterns,
their most famous being the number of ways they tried to get you to invite
your gmail contacts.

~~~
gnicholas
Just reinstalled Skype and can see that they're trying to get access to my
contacts also. They tell you to set up access so you can use the app.

First up is microphone, and you click allow. Second is camera, and you click
allow. Third is contacts, and you click—wait a minute, why do you need this?
Disallow.

Don't know what they would do if they got my contacts (hopefully not spam them
like LinkedIn), and don't intend to find out.

~~~
CPLX
Well considering that Skype is mainly a way to, you know, _contact_ people it
doesn't seem actually insane to consider it.

~~~
novia
Skype should be a little more private than your cell phone number is. If I add
someone's phone number to my contacts list, that DOES NOT mean I want them
automatically added as my Skype contact.

~~~
CPLX
Of course. But for them to ask doesn't seem like a dark pattern, since the
main use case for the app is contacting people you know and it's reasonable to
think most users don't want to micromanage different contact lists as you
describe. The dark pattern stuff is more like when your app for rating ice
cream flavors is asking for your entire address book.

~~~
novia
I don't recall skype ever asking me for my permission to do this. I updated
the app and then suddenly all my phone contacts were skype contacts and I had
to go through and change the settings to never do that again and I had to
manually delete each contact it had created.

To me this would be akin to facebook automatically adding the local chinese
restaurant as my friend simply because I had their number saved in my phone.

------
mangeletti
Another dark pattern (used to gain more positive ratings in apps) is:

    
    
        Do you love our app?
    
          Yes         No
           |          |
           |          |
         ______     ______
         Opens      Does
         AppStore   Nothing
    

It's a bit like saying, "Do you love candidate X?", and then giving
instructions for voting only to those who answer "yes".

~~~
st3v3r
At the same time, if someone has indicated that they want to give my app a bad
review, am I obligated to take them to the review point so they can do it?

~~~
mangeletti
I don't think that any of these dark patterns represent the breaking of
obligations by any party.

Dark patterns don't represent anything truly sinister, and in most cases they
are perfectly legal. They are just bad UX because they're dishonest about
their intent.

------
chrisdone
Buying tickets with RyanAir is stressful due to these kind of practices.
They're less aggressive than in the past, when I wouldn't even continue
because I just had zero trust in the company, but they're still sly.

A sneaky one I saw recently is something like:

[ ] Subscribe to newsletter about our services by unchecking this box.

(It doesn't matter whether the box is initially checked or not, the user will
be tricked into the desired behavior.)

I don't remember the exact phrasing, and it was much more shrewd than my own,
but it relied on a boolean flipping of the value of the checkbox towards the
end of the field label. Any user seeding the start of the sentence will leave
it in its current state.

~~~
luckyt
Why bother with a checkbox at all at this point? Can't they send everyone the
newsletter and not bother with a checkbox?

~~~
nommm-nommm
Probably their way of getting around government regulations.

------
covercash
Would gofundme's entire brand and business model be considered a dark pattern?
They go out of their way to make it feel like a nonprofit, promote campaigns
for issues that already have actual nonprofit status/direct donation pages,
and do their best to hide their fees (which, last I checked, were actually
higher for legitimate nonprofits than for regular campaigns).

~~~
woogiewonka
All of the fundraising platforms do this. They charge a fee and some go as far
as "recommending" a donation amount to the platform.

~~~
covercash
I'd like to see them make their platform fees clear at check out instead of
hiding them in a FAQ or About Us page.

------
aamederen
This kind of "hall of shame" websites are interesting to me. However, most of
the regular users do not know nor care about this stuff.

Well, in a semi-ideal world, there would be a comprehensive "hall of shame"
database containing the information about the tricks, problems, dark patterns,
etc. for all websites. Then, some helper apps or browser extensions could warn
us about these issues while a regular user is browsing.

One of the problems with this idea is that it gives a huge authority to the
owner of that database and there would be lots of questions about its
neutrality.

~~~
Cafey
In an ideal world we could detect those patterns programmatically but as you
hinted, there is the question of "when is it considered a dark pattern and
when is it only clever marketing?".

~~~
TeMPOraL
The answer is actually clear - it's always "dark pattern" from the POV of the
user, and it's always "clever marketing" from the POV of the business applying
it. Each side draws the line so far in the direction of the other that there
isn't any easy compromise.

------
shostack
Is there a category for grouping notifications such that spammy notifications
are lumped in with other important ones you might want to receive?

Google Photos is a big culprit unfortunately with their photo backup. They
keep pinging a notification to get me to remove local versions that are backed
up in the cloud. I don't want to do that. The only way to remove the
notification seems to be disabling all app notifications.

Worse, when you go into settings, they have a variety of settings that all
take you into a deeper level of settings when you click them.

Except "Free up device storage."

Clicking that does not take you to a deeper level as expected (despite looking
like a nav tree item), but instead actually does the one thing I didn't want
to do, with no confirmation dialogue.

~~~
antocv
Do you even actually have "important" notifications you might want to receive?

Is any automated system more important than your focus?

What I have is, disallow or delete the app or "service" as soon as I receive a
"notification" from it, only my wife and family is allowed to light up the led
on my phone.

------
gnicholas
An oft-overlooked aspect of dark patterns is the impact on accessibility.

Ever received a spam email, hunted for the unsubscribe link, and found it in
light grey, against a white background? Imagine how much worse that is for
someone with low vision. Ditto for pop-up ads with a tiny grey X in the
corner.

Many of the dark patterns described in the video rely on hiding/obfuscating
opt-outs and these have an even bigger impact on people with visual/processing
disabilities.

------
jcomis
How about this one in the new uber app: If you disable location services
(which recently switched to either "always" or "never", no longer offering
"only when open") you can't use your history or saved favorite places to set a
location, you have to manually type it out. Couldn't believe they would be so
shady just to get location services activated.

------
Animats
After the first time this appeared on HN, I quit LinkedIn and deleted my
profile. They still sent me "xxx wants to connect with you".

I'm really getting tired of turning down Amazon Prime on Amazon. I use Amazon
less because of this. There are about three extra pages of Amazon Prime ads to
click through for every purchase.

~~~
gnicholas
Somewhat related—Amazon Prime Video now shows ads at the beginning of videos.
This wasn't part of the deal when we signed up, and it's pretty deceptive to
just start doing this to customers.

I didn't see it in the agreement (actually went back and looked for something
that would cover ads), and it's not clear what limits, if any, they think
there are. That is, could they just decide to show as many ads as Hulu and say
"yeah, we said you could have access to this catalog. we didn't say it would
be ad-free".

~~~
nitrogen
Video services need to be disrupted in a way that sticks (not like Amazon
adding ads after selling everyone on an ad-free service). The only service I
use with any regularity now is Netflix since it has no ads, but even they
sometimes have problems with finding the show you actually want to watch.

I was on vacation recently and the room had DirecTV. I tried searching for a
program and all the search results were for channels not subscribed. Several
of the channels in the guide list were presented as if subscribed, but then
when a show would start, would prompt to charge $6 to continue watching and
the show would stop after a few minutes. Finally, I found a channel that was
subscribed and not PPV, and when an ad came on 30 seconds later, I tried to
turn off the DirecTV box.

Here's the DirecTV dark pattern: there was a "Please Wait..." message on the
screen while the ad played instead of just turning off the output! How can
anybody actually be making money from TV ads when they are so obnoxious?

I'm pretty sick of corporations double-dipping in every industry. Video
services charge you for watching, and then sell you to advertisers.
Supermarkets charge you for products, and then sell you to manufacturers. ISPs
charge you for bandwidth, and then try force video services to pay as well.
Where's the exit to this hall of mirrors?

~~~
woogiewonka
Speaking of Netflix, how about them autoplay video ads for Netflix original
shows?! Can stand that shit. I'm on the edge of cancellation every time I see
video previews autoplay!

------
johansch
My pet peeve: If you add a credit card to the Uber app there is no way to
remove it without replacing it with another valid payment method. If you
google solutions to this you get third party recommendations to plead with
their customer service to have it removed. Seriously?

This customer-hostile approach really needs to be killed.

~~~
Animats
Use 1111 2222 3333 4444, the credit card test number. This is valid at the
check digit level, but known to all banks as a test number to be rejected.

~~~
eric_h
I suspect there are many interfaces that would reject this number, as it's not
a visa, master card or amex (which start with a 4, 5 and 3 respectively).

5105105105105100 and 4111111111111111 might be better alternatives (other test
numbers that also pass the luhn check).

~~~
kagamine
And when using email addresses to test your software always use
[something]@test.com instead of [whatevs]@example.com because the people at
test.com love getting your random test data.

/sarcasm Don't do this. [http://contactx.test.com/contactX/contact-
spam.cfm](http://contactx.test.com/contactX/contact-spam.cfm)

------
AdmiralAsshat
Previous discussions:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6301378](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6301378)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12180072](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12180072)

------
oferzelig
I'm not sure why this appears here on HN and received so many votes.

Despite being a good site, it has been last updated in 2013:
[http://darkpatterns.org/whats-new/](http://darkpatterns.org/whats-new/)

I sent them 2 dark patterns in the past which they didn't put; in an email I
received long time after inquiring about it one of the developers said they're
under the pump and will get to it sometime. And they don't.

~~~
CM30
Technically, it was last updated in November 2015 (at least if the date here
is correct):

[http://darkpatterns.org/trick-questions/](http://darkpatterns.org/trick-
questions/)

Good luck figuring that out though, since the what's new page hasn't been
working in pretty much forever and the only way to see if something has been
changed is to check each category individually.

And yeah, it doesn't update much. I remember sending in my own examples
before, and those never got added either. Kind of wish there was a site about
this with a more regular update schedule or something.

------
BatFastard
Spirit airlines is a user of dark patterns. But its almost like a game on
their site trying to avoid all of the up-sells!

I may stay away from LA Fitness just because of this article.

~~~
mrgreenfur
The fun part of spirit is that it doesn't end on the site, you have to dodge
the dark patterns on the flight too!

~~~
dawnerd
At least they're pretty honest with it. Every time I walk by their counter at
the airport I laugh at the sign because it's like, no frills but you'll pay
for everything!

In a way I kind of like that model - just not on an airplane.

~~~
mrgreenfur
I kind of disagree, I want it to be that way in theory, but in reality it is
rather predatory. A no frills flight for low budget where you pay for
everything (and debatably more than an equal seat on another airline) and then
they pressure-cook the passengers for a high interest credit card. Their pitch
went on forever, way way longer than the usual "signup and get extra miles".

I watched a bunch of folks sign up on the flight and it made me feel really
badly; the same way that check-cashing places scam their, mostly not-affulent,
customers. These folks are even more vulnerable to these kinds of dark-
patterns.

------
Theodores
> they are not mistakes, they are carefully crafted with a solid understanding
> of human psychology, and they do not have the user’s interests in mind

I dispute this. I work with someone who is a marketing person and very much
drawn to dark pattern rubbish. Most recent incident is a good example - a
sales promotion where something is added to the cart if the customer buys a
certain product. I pointed out that this was a 'dark pattern' and made sure my
boss knew that such an idea is illegal in the E.U.

For me the illegality is not something that scares me, I doubt I will go to
jail for writing the code, however, using a 'dark pattern' is a problem for
me.

I like to think that I am a customer focused person, my marketing clown
certainly is not. In fact he cares not one iota about any of the customers,
his world view is selfish.

So, I point out the illegal aspect, next thing is that he wants the items
given away. I don't see how that makes our products look good and I have no
idea how to make money out of making a product and then shipping it to them
for free. So again I am not sold on the priority of the project.

Returning to the 'selfish' aspect, my marketing clown does not code or
appreciate the effort involved in making the auto-add work. I can do the code
for that and think I could get the MVP of it done in a day, with some testing
after that. Then there is the thinking through of the unintended consequences
- I imagine that we would get plenty of customer service emails if there was a
problem with the offer. The UX is also not thought out. I am sure that I could
spend all day getting the message to the customer sorted on the website and
emails, but if I didn't do that then the whole thing would certainly be 'dark
pattern'.

There is nothing clever about my selfish marketing clown and his naive ways.
However, he gets a performance bonus based on 'customer acquisition' metrics
that the rest of us don't get. He has an interest to not care about anything
other than his Google Analytics nonsense, customers, rest of the team, the
company making money matters not.

Although anecdotal, this is how 'dark patterns' happen - marketing clowns,
their selfish ways, their inability to understand the problem space (because
they don't do code or customers) and workplace bullying make these things
persist.

~~~
JadeNB
Your experience seems to _support_ , not refute, the idea that these are
conscious decisions (albeit at a marketing, rather than coding, level, which I
think is probably what the original meant) rather than inadvertent bugs.

~~~
EvilTerran
I don't get the impression GP's disagreeing with the "not mistakes" bit, only
the "carefully crafted with a solid understanding of human psychology" side of
things - they're deliberate, yes, but more often than not they're clumsily-
applied snake-oil, not the evil-genius stuff they're pitched as.

~~~
Theodores
Thanks for that. Perhaps what I see in the anecdotal 'marketing clown' is a
lack of human empathy, which is kind of the foundation stone for understanding
'human psychology'. Some people lack the wiring to care about others and see
things from their point of view, whether it is the customer or the workmate.
They also do not pick up on basic psychology, in my example there is little
appreciation of how upsells work - there are facets and nuances to this that
anyone who works in retail gets to grasp.

So it is a case of these people not knowing what they are doing, far from
knowing the customer psychology and deliberately deceiving them, there is just
no thought beyond doing some silly marketing campaign for the month end
results.

What is also wrong with dark pattern is that the customers have to be churned
- they will not be coming back after the customer service disaster that goes
with the sale.

I don't care about quarterly results, I care about building a business that
does not need marketing beyond word of mouth and white-hat SEO. So, in ten
years time, customers will return for customer service provided to them, not
to facilitate whatever silly offer is needed for my marketing clown's month
end. I want customers to want to come back for a great product and great
service, this is not compatible with 'dark patterns'.

We often give intellect where there is none. Notably in TV dramas where the
'killer' is supposed to be clever, in reality most people that commit crime
really are not thinking at all, they have not thought it all through. 'Dark
patterns' is a bit like that.

------
Tempest1981
Here is another unsubscribe dark pattern:
[http://imgur.com/a/lLZAE](http://imgur.com/a/lLZAE)

* Do I check the item if I want to unsubscribe from it?

* Or do I uncheck the items I don't wish to receive?

50-50 chance -- which I'm sure they love. Clicking "Update" gives no feedback
either, just reloads the page.

~~~
wingerlang
To me it looks like the checked ones are the ones to unsubscribe from.

~~~
kagamine
The button text should read "unsubscribe" in that case, not "update", and the
header text "Subscriptions". It could be a _lot_ clearer.

------
zpallin
This presentation is great. I think a good next step on the path toward ending
unethical UX could be in creating an international ethics review board for it.

I know it sounds silly, but this is how a lot of decisions are agreed upon by
many large organizations, and help encourage involvement and following the
rules. See W3, ICANN, ESRB, IETF, etc.

The "BUXE", or Board for User eXperience Ethics (just my name idea) could be
founded by a group of consenting UX designers, companies, and organizations.
Together they would vote on and establish UX design principles that would be
up for review every year or so.

The BUXE will accept fees for reviewing a website's adherence to their ethics
and would give ratings to them based on how well they follow the guidelines.
The resulting site can then publish their BUXE rating on their site.

Individual developers could be given honor status if they are particularly
vocal or involved in ensuring the development of ethical UX that could be
accolades for them to brag about (something important to developers). It's a
good resume booster, anyway.

Plenty of other ideas.

~~~
woogiewonka
This is great, I'd be 100% behind this.

------
shostack
While I'm familiar with the site already, I'd love to have an RSS feed of
newly added submissions. Unfortunately, when I click on Recently Added I get a
list with pattern definition links that all 404, and no link to the actual
submission.

~~~
eroiusghs
That and a api where you could `GET
darkpatterns.org/patterns/www.linkedin.com` and get a list. Would be great for
building a nice browser plugin with.

~~~
shostack
That would be amazing. An educational plugin that could pop up notifications
at relevant times to inform and warn users of known dark patterns would be
very powerful.

------
module0000
There is no "works for everyone" method to stop this. You can vote with your
wallet, and support vendors that act ethically, or act in whatever way you are
OK with.

When this type of UI disappears from the internet, then you will know that the
majority of consumers agree with your viewpoint. Until then, people keep
buying those insurance upgrades, and not caring(if they cared, we wouldn't be
in this situation).

If it all seems glib, that's because it _is_ glib. People are taking advantage
of other people, just below the threshold where those victims care enough to
do something about it. This is the world we live in. I'm not sure how to end
this on a positive note.

~~~
emodendroket
> When this type of UI disappears from the internet, then you will know that
> the majority of consumers agree with your viewpoint. Until then, people keep
> buying those insurance upgrades, and not caring(if they cared, we wouldn't
> be in this situation).

In a situation where you are legally compelled to buy insurance and
essentially all providers do this that's completely wrong.

~~~
module0000
Huh? What type of insurance are you talking about? I'm talking about airline
flight insurance, like in the article.

~~~
emodendroket
OK, so I got that wrong. The airline industry is hardly an example of robust
competition either.

------
superacid
Found this gem while looking through the comments on YT. How is this even
legal? [http://imgur.com/a/m66DA](http://imgur.com/a/m66DA)

~~~
eroiusghs
Thank you for sharing - now I know never to ever use G2A Shield.

~~~
MawNicker
Actionable.

------
a_c
Does darkpatterns.org support api query? There ought to be one available so
that various tools can be built. For instance, a browser plugin to warn users
upon visiting dark pattern websites

~~~
artursapek
Take it further - introduce a "darkness rating" like Google's old pagerank
value. I wish Google would punish websites for doing this stuff.

~~~
calesce
They started punishing those mobile web "install our native app" interstitials
about a year ago, hope there's more stuff like that coming.

------
whoisjuan
I wrote an article about this. Basically explaining the difference between
designed inconveniences and deceptive patterns: [https://medium.com/art-
marketing/designed-inconveniences-ux-...](https://medium.com/art-
marketing/designed-inconveniences-ux-patterns-that-cant-be-
taught-998eae9c4546#.shen3k6ck)

------
b1daly
I've been pondering the recent trend in pop up ads where if you try and
dismiss it by clicking the tiny, hard to find, checkbox, and you miss, it will
cause it to move. This forces you to actually pay attention, to a degree, to
the ad, rather than habitually dismiss it.

These are usually found in ads, or notices like the New York Times puts up
notifying you there are only so many free articles left.

I think of this as a gray pattern usually, as it is designed to keep the
source of revenue going to fund the sight you are currently reading. It's a
surprisingly effective innovation.

~~~
djsumdog
uBlock Origin. I don't allow any ads. I'll donate to a Pateron or buy your
T-shirts or a book if I like your content, but fuck ads.

------
nodesocket
Pricing pages are another type of U/I that could be label black hat.
Personally, I think the typical pricing "tricks" like anchoring, bundling,
freemium are fine and part of running a business.

------
EduardoBautista
This definitely reminds me of the process of deactivating your Facebook
account. You really have to read what's on the screen in order to choose the
right options.

------
xbryanx
Where do we draw the line between "dark patterns" and "smart design?" I feel
like the Hacker News community could be advocating for a persuasive pricing
page design one day and decrying its dark design pattern the next. The
obviously evil patterns are easy to avoid, but it's difficult to distinguish
between appropriately persuasive and inappropriately manipulative in the grey-
middle.

------
api
Is the use of a tech shift or form factor change as an opportunity to redefine
the product so as to reduce customer freedom or introduce surveillance a dark
pattern?

I've thought of this with the mobile revolution. You could never have
introduced total device lock down and ubiquitous telemetry so easily in the PC
era. There would have been an outcry. But change the form factor...

------
solaarphunk
Quora does a ton of this in their email newsletters to try and reactivate you!
Want to unsubscribe? Okay! We'll just make up a new "round up" newsletter and
re-subscribe you. So desperate to stay alive I guess...

------
angry-hacker
My question is how well these dark patterns work? People who have or must have
implemented them, do you have any data?

For an example join newsletter pop ups you get on websites. I assume everyone
pisses off and closes them, or do they?

~~~
tsunamifury
The problem is that they do work within the defintion that the growth hackers
are working with. They do not measure the people it drives away and never
return.

Think of it as similar to the mall kiosk people -- they dont care if you are
offended, you probably would never have bought their product anyways.

Also similar to spammers who now send emails that are so stupid that you think
no one would ever click them -- except the small number of people who are so
naive that they do -- which is what they are trying to select for.

Which points to age old problem of any public network: spam.

------
lectrice
Isn't part of the problem that "conversion rates" and "engagement" now trump
just about every other metric? Anyone know good ways to quantify annoyance
rate and off-puttedness?

------
gene-h
I am surprised there is nothing about comcast on there.

------
ozgung
Maybe it's not an issue about the designers. Maybe the problem is that most
marketing people are "black hat" by design.

------
spennant
Has anyone tried to ignore iOS updates recently?

~~~
nodesocket
These are product updates and often times contain security and stability
fixes, nobody is trying to trick you here. Apple is proactively trying to keep
their users up to date, I see no problems with this.

~~~
uabstraction
This is just PR speak to cover for the false dichotomy that you must accept
new features (and regressively slower OS upgrades) to receive security updates
- or be vulnerable. In reality, Apple could easily back-port security fixes.
They are abusing security to force undesired changes to functionality.

Edit: Take a look at how any Stable/LTS Linux disto handles this. If a bunch
of hackers can do it on such a diverse software stack, surely the company with
the largest cash reserves in the world can figure out how to do it on a
software/hardware stack they control completely.

------
Graham24
and at the top of the list of Bait and Switch is "Microsoft: Windows 10
Upgrade".

That's what got me, after the hundredth time it had appeared I clicked the X
instead of . It the tactics of criminals.

------
mgalka
That Ryanair example is outrageous, and not at all surprising

------
z3t4
I think labor unions would be the best option. Put their employers into
strike, DOS their website, and contact the press. No one will feel bad about
the scammers.

------
Hydraulix989
I submitted quite a few of these.

------
campuscodi
This is the 45th time I see this site in HN... How do people not know about it
until now?

------
BillinghamJ
An awful lot of the content on this website shows naivety/lack of
understanding of the website, and in a few cases, displays information which
is simply untrue.

~~~
uw_rob
Think you could be more specific ?

~~~
BillinghamJ
Yep.

[http://darkpatterns.org/maxcdn-com-may-2013/](http://darkpatterns.org/maxcdn-
com-may-2013/) \- the $10 arises because the option for including edge servers
in Asia is selected

[http://darkpatterns.org/british-airways-distract-from-
cheape...](http://darkpatterns.org/british-airways-distract-from-cheapest-
option/) \- I'm pretty skeptical that this had any malicious intent. It _is_
showing the cheapest option in the column. Often the customer will already
know which class they want to fly in, so it helps them to be able to skim down
a column looking for the cheapest option.

[http://darkpatterns.org/papa-johns-iphone-app-
november-2011/](http://darkpatterns.org/papa-johns-iphone-app-november-2011/)
\- I think this is seriously reaching. Every single pizza chain (both online &
in-store) work this way. They do a lot to point you in the direction of their
offers page too.

[http://darkpatterns.org/directline-com-
july-2010/](http://darkpatterns.org/directline-com-july-2010/) \- Hilarious.
If this website had any idea how much negative impact price comparison sites
have had on car insurance in the UK, they'd be praising Direct Line for not
lowering themselves to the tactics of all the other insurers (offering an
incredibly unprofitable first year rate, then massively increasing pricing
when you renew)

I'm sure there are more - these are the most clear ones after skimming through
about half of the categories.

~~~
SilkRoadie
I mostly agree with what you have pointed out.

The one exception is the British Airways site. That page is very confusing. At
best is awful UI. At worst it was created to trick the user into purchasing a
more expensive ticket.

~~~
BillinghamJ
I totally agree that the UI is absolute dogshit, but I don't think I'm willing
to definitively call this out as a dark pattern when it definitely could be
shitty design.

That's my problem with this website - it would have more impact if it was more
honest/genuine and only called out websites which are definitely 100% dark
patterns. Or perhaps they could show questionable websites further down under
a slightly different heading - to show that they do recognize it's not black
and white.

