
How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult - prawn
http://www.vox.com/2015/10/28/9622920/housing-adult-friendship
======
TulliusCicero
Note that it's not just individual choices that have led to this. Minimum
parking requirements, anti-density zoning laws, and other car-first
regulations have forcibly shaped our communities to be hostile to walking,
biking, and transit. A huge loss in spontaneous community interaction is the
inevitable result.

~~~
topspin
Well that's 100% out of phase with my experience. I just ended 21 years in the
"Front Range" area; Boulder, Fort Collins CO. Bike trails and bikers abound,
anti-car municipal governments impeding road development, everyone living on
anti-sprawl 0.2 acre plats. However, actual contact with neighbors was very
sparse; a service for every need, everything on auto-pilot.

The last three months I've been living semi-rural in the midwest; all the
households are on two acres (minimum, due to to well and septic density.) I've
had more direct contact with my neighbors in these 12 weeks than the previous
21 years put together. Maintaining larger properties that are much more
distant from the urban core invites collaboration. Household attendance at the
HOA meeting last month was almost 50%; waaay more than I saw back in the Front
Range burbs.

Your view of the world doesn't match my experience at all. Exactly the
opposite.

~~~
muddyrivers
Agree. I don't think physical distance and density are important factors.
Culture might be.

People are more friendly in the midwest, and they are more open to talk about
family matters. Family matters are in essence intimate, and the topics draw
the people in the conversation together. In the big cities, these topics are
regarded as "more" private (they are indeed private). It is a social norm to
not share them unless to good friends. The less people share, the less
opportunities to make friends.

I also find it is easier for adults, especially men, to make friends in Asia,
like in China and Japan.

~~~
topspin
Culture? Hmm. Maybe. These highly ordered, dense and costly neighborhoods are
hostile. Anxiety is high among residence. Remove that and replace it with a
degree of liberty, some space and the need to collaborate to keep the road
open and people connect naturally.

The 'urban planners' and their cheerleaders have it wrong. They've decided
that downsizing everyone and making them live in each others laps will end
with Kumbaya. In fact it ends with everyone on edge, peering at each other
silently as they sweat the value of their tiny piece of it.

~~~
TulliusCicero
Ok, it's pretty clear now that you just have a personal grudge against any
sort of density, man. You need extra space to be happy, that's fine, but
you're not everyone. Look across the pond at Western Europe or Japan: two very
different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher
social cohesion than in America, not lower.

> Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty

Do you know what liberty is? It's letting the market have a say in how dense
developments can be, so that people's individual choices dictate what's
available, rather than the law. It's supporting all modes of transportation so
that people have an actual choice in how they get around, instead of being
required to drive to do anything or go anywhere. Forcing everyone into what
topspin thinks is best isn't liberty, it's coercion.

~~~
Pyxl101
> Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density
> than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not
> lower.

It's a lot easier to have "high social cohesion" when you have a uniform
culture that's been around for centuries, and are not living in a nation of
immigrants from all over. I have nothing against that, by the way, but I'm
simply pointing out that many countries like Japan are fairly xenophobic at
best, racist at worst. I believe there was an article on HN recently about how
difficult it is to found a start up in Japan as a foreigner.

Plus, I'm not sure this kind of tight-knit culture is something I'd want to be
a part of: [http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-
japan/](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/)

> The company is your public life. Have an issue with your landlord? The
> company will handle it, in those cases where the company is not your
> landlord.[...] Need to file paperwork with City Hall? Someone from HR can do
> it for you.

> The company is your private life. All friends you’ve made since your school
> days almost by definition work for your company, because you spend
> substantially every waking hour officially at work or at quote leisure
> unquote with people from work.

That sounds to me like modern-day feudalism.

\----

> Do you know what liberty is? It's letting the market have a say in how dense
> developments can be

What's wrong with the people in each area voting for the laws that govern
their area? If the people in an area don't want to vote for an increase in
density, then so be it. Let them live their lives how they want to.

~~~
TulliusCicero
Yes, those societies are different, obviously. My point was just that it's
certainly possible to have high social cohesion even with dense urban living.

> What's wrong with the people in each area voting for the laws that govern
> their area?

There's nothing necessarily wrong with localities having their own laws, of
course. I'm not advocating for overthrowing democracy, I'm just arguing that
overly restrictive anti-density regulations have had a number of bad impacts:

\- In desirable metros, skyrocketing property values caused by restrictions on
new housing supply act as a large wealth transfer from the young to the old.

\- _Needing_ to use a car hurts the poor, hurts college students, hurts
childrens' independence, and hurts residents' healthiness.

\- Lower density developments are more energy- and thus carbon-intensive.

\- Wasted time on long commutes because the only affordable housing is far
away is a huge economic sink.

\- The economy overall is weaker because many people avoid moving to high-
productivity areas like Silicon Valley or NYC, and instead go to lower-
productivity cities, because of high housing costs caused by a lack of supply:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2014/07/25/h...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2014/07/25/how-
big-cities-that-restrict-new-housing-harm-the-economy/)

------
pasbesoin
Counterpoint: If you've ever really been burned by having a crappy neighbor --
or a string of them -- you may be inclined to get as far away as possible.

I'm sensitive to noise, and I ended up not with average neighbors but with
extremely noisy ones, on multiple occasions. (On one occasion, inescapable
even when I was across the street and down two houses.)

I'd like a greater sense of community, but I never want to go through that,
again.

I don't know whether manners have changed, or more people are sensitive to
noise (some aspect of the autistic spectrum or the like?). Regardless, for me,
higher density living will only become attractive with improvements in
soundproofing of such units and/or better control of noisy behavior.

(Come to think of it, people didn't used to have such absurd stereos and
televisions producing such absurd levels of bass, either -- on average. Not
that that is the only problem with noise, these days.)

P.S. I'll add that the sound of kids playing and the like doesn't bother me,
in reasonable measure. The situations I encountered went FAR beyond that.

Sociologists/anthropologists and urban planners need to broaden their
perspective with regard to this, in my opinion, when considering contemporary
U.S. environments and their like.

Further, I can add that I have made upwards of 10 good friends in the last
decade. Not neighbors -- although I am friendly with several of them -- but
people who, while differing in details and some beliefs and opinions, are kind
and respectful.

So... is it that we don't have "casual interactions" near our homes? Or, is
something else going on? Probably some of each.

Again, if you want to promote higher density living, amongst other things
ameliorate the noise issues. Better sound-proofing. Effective ordinances.

~~~
soylentcola
I personally love urban life for the most part. I grew up in the "boonies" and
I sometimes think that childhood/teenage boredom due to not having many things
to do or other young people nearby influenced my feelings on the matter.

But the one thing that makes me consider moving to a more rural setting is the
fact that I sometimes _want_ to make noise (playing instruments, etc) but
there aren't as many opportunities when I live in a townhouse. I mostly just
compromise by playing at lower volumes (less fun when it comes to playing
guitar or whatever), playing through headphones (again, less fun because lower
volume or using headphones doesn't give the satisfaction of how a guitar or
bass sounds through a proper amp at "rock and roll" volumes).

Still, I'm not a total asshole so I limit my volumes and I only play during
hours when it's much less likely that anyone nearby would be sleeping. I also
keep that stuff in the basement so it doesn't "leak" out as much that way.

If I had the money to just buy an old warehouse or a property in a remote
location for playing music or watching movies on a projection screen with
theater-volume speakers, I'd do it in a heartbeat but that's just a pipe
dream. I don't have the funds to purchase or rent access to such a space.

So for now, the solution is to play music quieter/at more "decent" hours and
keep the theater experience restricted to outdoor movies at a friend's house
in the country during the summer. For these sorts of activities that go hand
in hand with loud volume, you really are more limited in the city. It's not
enough to make me give up short commutes and walking/taxi access to bars,
restaurants, and arts/entertainment venues but it's definitely a
consideration.

------
ChuckMcM
Well I have learned a lot from my wife in this regard, we walk our dog in the
early evenings and say Hi! and chat with anyone willing to stop and talk.

Perhaps the biggest thing I learned is that you have to give your time
unconditionally, sometimes for a while, before people will trust you enough to
reciprocate. But you can break down barriers this way.

------
PhantomGremlin
Something that I haven't seen mentioned here is online communities. E.g. HN.
Or the thousands of other websites that cater to the varied interests we have.

It's not the same as real life, in person interaction. But it does result in
"friendships" of a sort. It allows people to interact with like minded
individuals. Much different than everyone being passive consumers watching the
boob tube.

