
Call to Action to save Kratom plant from DEA's uninformed Schedule I decision - fapjacks
http://www.americankratom.org/national_call_to_action
======
coldpie
Regardless of how you feel about drugs for personal use, enjoyment, or their
health benefits, ask yourself: how would society benefit by putting these
users in jail or setting them back financially? Do we have a Kratom problem?
Have you ever even heard of Kratom before? Is continuing to put our resources
into jailing otherwise-productive members of society the best way to use those
resources?

~~~
exelius
I think the idea is to go after the distributors and importers; not the end
users. They're trying to prevent a commercial industry from growing around it
before it starts (just like it did with the "synthetic marijuana" that we now
know to be incredibly toxic).

Also, Kratom is already illegal basically everywhere it grows because it does
cause many of the same societal problems that other narcotics do. It is known
to be chemically addictive and can cause death via overdose or through
interactions with other drugs. While a knee-jerk schedule 1 classification is
too harsh (I don't think we know enough about it to declare it as having no
theraputic use); it certainly shouldn't go unregulated either.

If you leave it unregulated, vultures with no regard for human life will swoop
in and start marketing it as diet pills, herbal painkillers, etc. with few
regards for its safety or effectiveness. If you regulate it early, you can
prevent large amounts of it from flooding the market and start to educate
people as to what it is before it becomes a problem. IMO it's specifically a
problem because it's so unknown in the West that people will assume it's not
dangerous.

~~~
jmcgough
There were 15 recorded cases of people dying from kratom from 2014-2016. To
put that in perspective, 15,000+ people die each year in America from NSAIDs
like aspirin, and from similar causes (taking massive amounts, preexisting
conditions, mixing it with other drugs).

The good that kratom is doing for people far outweighs its minimal dangers,
which can be mitigated by educating people on how to use it safely.

~~~
mbreese
You have a denominator problem.

15 recorded (likely underreported) cases of people dying, but how many people
took it in that time frame? How many people fully knew the risks? Given the
lack of quality control, how much was due to contaminates?

Millions of people take aspirin each year and the risks are well known with
NSAIDs and they are produced at a very high quality.

The absolute numbers are very misleading without knowing the exposure rates. I
don't take a position one way or the other on Kratom, because I don't know
anything about it, but your argument is not very compelling from a statistical
perspective.

~~~
jmcgough
That's a fair argument, but it's impossible for me to compare them because
there's no data on how many people use kratom. I'm not saying it's less
dangerous than NSAIDs necessarily, as kratom is poorly researched at this
point. What I'm trying to say is that we allow people to freely use NSAIDs in
spite of the regular death that they cause, because of the benefits they
provide. I don't see what makes kratom any different from that - it seems like
a knee-jerk reaction in the middle of an opiate epidemic, just because it
seems to be agonistic.

~~~
exelius
Right; there has to be a middle ground between "zero regulation" and "total
prohibition". Schedule 1 classification effectively prevents research, which
is a bad idea. But likewise, no regulation means this stuff will start showing
up in bodegas with all sorts of claims attached to it and very little quality
control -- a bad idea for a substance that is known to be capable of causing
death in large quantities.

There has to be a middle ground.

------
jMyles
After the completely incorrect assessment of MDMA during the emergency
scheduling process (ie, both attributing far more danger than was accurate and
ignoring the substantial evidence of medical benefit in psychotherapy), we
err'd by not immediately removing the emergency scheduling authority from the
DEA. Now we're facing the consequences of continuing to allow this charlatan
agency to continue to make scientific decisions.

~~~
AstralStorm
Even emergency powers of it should be limited to Schedule II. Schedule I is
for things known to be highly detrimental and dangerous.

~~~
jMyles
Schedule I is for substances with a high potential for abuse _and_ no medical
benefit.

Even if we might disagree about the former, it's obvious that both MDMA and
Kratom have incredible medical benefits.

------
evincarofautumn
In addition to its other uses, given the anecdotal reports of kratom’s
usefulness in treating opioid addiction—which I’ve seen in a few close
friends—I believe we have an ethical obligation to oppose this ban and
encourage further research.

I’ve never touched opioids before—a friend gaped when I told them that I threw
away perfectly good Vicodin after getting my wisdom teeth out! But I have used
kratom occasionally for a few months, and it’s been an incredible relief of
nerve pain, anxiety, sleeplessness, and desire to drink alcohol. I hope that
it continues to be available to people who need it much more than I do.

------
innocentoldguy
Having taken Kratom several times, I don't know what all the fluster is about.
It worked as a mild stimulant for me (similar to coffee) and helped with
headaches. That's about it. Maybe other people have had different experiences
with it, but for me, Kratom is more along the lines of coffee and aspirin than
it is marijuana (which I don't think should be outlawed either).

I think people should actually experience the substance before allowing their
knees to jerk with wanton abandon.

~~~
AstralStorm
It is probably most similar to medium dose codeine. Which happens to be
available over the counter in many formulations.

------
spdustin
I agree it's a knee-jerk reaction, but it seems that study is warranted rather
than just praise. Seems like an interesting plant.

From a November 2015 paper entitled "Following 'the Roots' of Kratom
(Mitragyna speciosa): The Evolution of an Enhancer from a Traditional Use to
Increase Work and Productivity in Southeast Asia to a Recreational
Psychoactive Drug in Western Countries" [0]

Note: reference numbers changed from original, and where appropriate, non-
working or functionally empty URIs were replaced with working ones,

"...findings show that regular kratom use is associated with drug dependency,
development of withdrawal symptoms, and craving [1]. Many regular users
declare their difficulty to abstain from kratom use and experiencing sharp
unpleasant symptoms during abstinence periods [2]. Physical withdrawal
symptoms include anorexia, weight loss, decreased sexual drive, insomnia,
muscle spasms and pain, aching in the muscles and bones, jerky movement of the
limbs, watery eyes/nose, hot flushes, fever, decreased appetite, and diarrhoea
[3, 1]. Psychological withdrawal symptoms commonly reported are nervousness,
restlessness, tension, anger, hostility, aggression, and sadness [4, 1]. Long-
term addicts are described to become thin and have skin pigmentation on their
cheeks, due to the capacity of mitragynine to increase the production of
melanocytes-stimulating substance [4, 5]. Regular ketum use is also reported
to cause psychotic symptoms such as mental confusion, delusion, and
hallucination [4]..."

[0]:
[https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2015/968786/](https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2015/968786/)

[1]: Search sci-hub for DOI: 10.1016/j.drugalcdep.2014.03.017

[2]: Search sci-hub for DOI: 10.1016/j.drugpo.2012.09.004

[3]:
[https://books.google.com/books?id=t6IvPAAACAAJ](https://books.google.com/books?id=t6IvPAAACAAJ)

[4]: [https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-
analysis/bulletin/bu...](https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-
analysis/bulletin/bulletin_1975-01-01_3_page003.html)

[5]:
[https://books.google.com/books?id=qJS4AAAAIAAJ](https://books.google.com/books?id=qJS4AAAAIAAJ)

~~~
AstralStorm
Correct. Which is why it should be classified, but somewhere around Schedule
II, like other typically used natural opiates. E.g. Morphine and high dose
codeine.

------
elcct
If it doesn't make sense, then there must be big money behind it. They got
away with cannabis, they will easily get away with a plant that significantly
fewer number of people care about.

------
tribby
DEA's primary objective is justifying its existence, so it's a bit surprising
it didn't happen already. Terrible decision.

Obama signed the Comprehensive Addiction and Recovery Act into law a few weeks
ago, which has a $900MM budget over a few years. I'd wager a lot of that money
will go to makers/marketers of Narcan and other suboptimal solutions.

Kratom leaf has never killed anyone. Extracts have never killed anyone (there
are few companies that do a supercritical CO2 extraction of mitragynine and
7-OHM). There were a few O-DSMT deaths misattributed to kratom, and IIRC a few
more cases of people having kratom in their system while they died from
something else. Because you can't OD on kratom, it's a tremendously powerful
tool in harm reduction for recovering heroin addicts. This ban is a terrible
decision that could easily lead to the death of those who turn back to the
substances that kratom helped them kick.

The most telling thing in this whole story is that salvia is still legal. Why?
Because it's not competing with big pharma.

Tangental but interesting bit of trivia: the American Kratom Association's
executive director is Nancy Pelosi's son.

~~~
AstralStorm
You probably can OD on Kratom, but overdosing caffeine is easier if you want
to off yourself.

------
civilian
I wonder if the kratom community should have gotten infront of this. If you
think the DEA is going to come down with the Emergency Schedule 1 hammer, then
maybe it'd be better to take action to make it become Schedule 4 or 5. First
impressions are important, if your group is the first one to talk to congress
then you can control the narrative.

~~~
fapjacks
We are mobilizing. We have email and phone call campaigns going, and the
petition (which may be more useful than other petitions people have seen since
it qualifies under the third condition under which this decision can be fought
by the DEA). There is a national march in Washington DC on the 13th. We are
trying.

~~~
civilian
Thanks for the work! But I meant, get infront of this by advocating Kratom for
schedule IV or V several years ago. Sorry, I'm being an armchair activist.

~~~
fapjacks
No, you're exactly right. We were a silent majority for all of these years,
when we could have been putting out peace feelers before this became a
problem. We could have been educating people.

------
aidenn0
Does anyone know why the DEA makes these decisions rather than the FDA?
(Similarly why the USDA makes nutritional advice rather than the Surgeon
general).

------
daveloyall
The comments below this
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12438979](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12438979)
tell us why it is on Schedule I.

For the uninitiated: Some experiences change your life.

All schedule I substances might make a user quit their job. Period.

That's what the list means. There are LOTS of things that will merely kill you
which are NOT on the list...

N.B. I have no idea what "Kratom", and "change your life" certainly doesn't
always imply "for the better". Stay safe, kids, stay smart.

~~~
fapjacks
Kratom allows people to become productive, taxpaying citizens with full time
jobs that otherwise aren't able to. Look up the #iamkratom hashtag.

~~~
daveloyall
I think you misread my comment. I haven't tried the stuff and I'm not about to
endorse something that I haven't tried. Moreover, there are things I do
recommend but I still advise potential users to stay safe and be smart.

Now back to my original point: there are things on the Schedule I list that
can change people's lives. Some of the most interesting things on the list
can, on first use, pull back the veil and allow the user to re-evaluate their
most basic beliefs.

My argument is that the establishment does not benefit from people doing that,
when so many of their workers have BS jobs.

The list might exist to protect the basic health and safety of our population,
or it might exist to protect the status quo.

You say this stuff is great? Well don't be surprised it's on the list, then!
:)

~~~
fapjacks
I smell what you're cooking. There were enough negative comments in here that
I had incorrectly presumed to lump yours in with them, and I'm sorry for that.
I try not to talk too much about existing power structures and the "real"
reason things happen (or don't happen), but that doesn't mean it isn't true,
or more true than any other reason put forward.

