
Tim Sweeney: Android is a fake open system, and iOS is worse - Reedx
https://venturebeat.com/2020/02/12/tim-sweeney-android-is-a-fake-open-system-and-ios-is-worse/
======
scarface74
_Epic Games wanted to enable players to sideload Fortnite directly from the
Epic Games site, rather than through the Google Play store. Sweeney said that
Google put up “scary” pop-ups in front of users about the risks of sideloading
(viruses, malware)_

[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnet.com/google-
amp/news/fo...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnet.com/google-
amp/news/fortnites-battle-royale-with-android-security-problems-is-just-
getting-started/)

 _As spotted by Android Central, Google has disclosed a huge vulnerability in
Epic Games ' original Fortnite installer for Android, one that could have
taken advantage of the Fortnite installer to install and launch a rogue app,
and even give that app access to your phone's data without you ever knowing._

~~~
3327
Perhaps, it still doesn’t make Tim’s claim false. Surely they can patch the
vulnerability.

The point is, the world is pushed back into prodigy land of closed systems.
Sure, it was completely wild west during the period when everything was open
and that, the current state is defacto consolidation... however, innovation
has its limits once kept in a sand box. From an ecosystem perspective, there
are ways in which, closed systems and open world can exist.

Google and apple have for better or worse decent ecosystems, but, have they
not stiffled competition in subtle yet effective ways for years?

~~~
scarface74
The fact that they can patch their security vulnerability is poor
consolidation for someone who gets hack.

People don’t understand how the Wild West where every program you install has
full access to your computer and the consequences of it - adware, toolbarware,
viruses, ransomware, etc makes people a lot less likely to install software.

And again we have two ecosystems - one where you can sideload and one you
can’t. Where are all of the innovative apps that are only on Android?

~~~
leereeves
Android makes sideloading difficult and scary enough that it's not really an
option for the majority of users. Hence this article, and the lack of
sideloaded apps.

~~~
scarface74
It _should_ be scary and the Fortnite vulnerability is a perfect example.

------
dkonofalski
I thank Tim for all his contributions to gaming and 3D technology but I'm not
inclined to listen to this kind of nonsense without a solution to the specific
problem he's addressing. Yes, there's financial incentive for Google and Apple
to have closed store ecosystems but, for the majority of people, those closed,
walled gardens are worth it. Tech savvy people do not make up the majority of
customers and I think he's being extremely disingenuous to suggest that most
users would want to be able to toss away the convenience of these App Stores
in exchange for being able to install Fortnite directly from Epic. He only
wants that because then he doesn't have to lose money to those companies to do
so.

~~~
m463
The Google - Epic thing aside, having an open market is important.

Before App stores became acceptable, the PC market was wide open and there was
robust competition.

Developers could create any kind of software they wanted. They were free to
distribute and sell however made sense, and there was no need to ask for
permission. This advanced the state of the art exponentially for decades and
decades. Customers reaped the benefits.

~~~
dragonsky67
And with the App stores individual developers have access to even more
customers than ever before without having to deal with publishing and
distribution. In most cases they even gain an easy upgrade system that ensures
that their customers will be working with the latest version of their
software.

~~~
m463
That might be true, but sort of secondary to the issue.

The developers would have more opportunities if there no barriers to
publishing and distribution.

For example, if the developer type you are speaking of had access to two app
stores, he would benefit from the competition.

------
ryukafalz
Meanwhile, also from Tim Sweeney:
[https://twitter.com/timsweeneyepic/status/964284402741149698...](https://twitter.com/timsweeneyepic/status/964284402741149698?lang=en)

I agree that the industry needs to be more open and shouldn't be beholden to
the platform owners. But the Epic Games Store is probably the thing that now
threatens gaming on desktop Linux the most, with its paid exclusivity that
ends up forcing developers to drop their Linux releases.

And Linux is one of the most open platforms available, so... practice what you
preach? They're _making_ themselves reliant on the platform providers.

------
webmobdev
This part really made me think:

 _He drew a comparison to Visa and Mastercard and the global credit card
payment system, where vendors charge 2.5% to 3.5% fees for transactions, while
store vendors such as Steam, Apple, and Google charge 30%. He said the global
payments industry is proof that highly profitable companies can arise from
just taking the 2.5% to 3.5% cut._

He makes a very good point - tech companies do charge very high fees for using
their app stores. Do regulators control how much fees payment gateways can
charge?

~~~
CarVac
A payment gateway isn't a channel for discovering a vendor, though. You don't
go to Visa or PayPal when doing your shopping.

You go to a vendor, and the vendor has a choice of whether or not to accept a
given method of payment. That's what effectively limits the fees on payments.

~~~
webmobdev
> _That 's what effectively limits the fees on payments._

And competition. When India launched its own payment processing gateway and
card, branded RuPay, that charged 23% lower fees than Mastercard and Visa,
they too were forced to drop the exorbitant fees they charged banks and
vendors.

-> [https://www.financialexpress.com/industry/banking-finance/ru...](https://www.financialexpress.com/industry/banking-finance/rupay-shines-from-limited-presence-in-2013-to-capturing-half-of-market-now-3-reasons-behind-phenomenal-rise/1378445/)

-> [https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/small-biz/sme-sector/vi...](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/small-biz/sme-sector/visa-slashes-fee-on-debit-card-payments/articleshow/64565741.cms)

-> [https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/banking/financ...](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/banking/finance/rupay-forces-mastercard-to-call-for-fair-competition/articleshow/49574972.cms)

------
thrower123
The Epic game store is a fake game store, propped up by giveaways and bribing
developers for exclusive rights.

I would never have gotten into it if The Outer Worlds were on Steam, but, eh,
at this point I've spent $60 and picked up a couple hundred dollars worth of
other titles that for free. Otherwise, it's fine, but there's nothing special
about it and no compelling reason to switch.

------
salvagedcircuit
In my mind, the minute locked bootloaders became the norm for android, and
firmware source files became unavailable for devs, android became a closed-
shut system. There used to be an entire ecosystem of mods and custom roms,
which now have mostly dried up. The number of hoops needed to jump through to
actually make an android phone your own in 2020 is completely absurd.

~~~
scarface74
Android’s “openness” has always been bullshit. From day one what made Android
Android to most non Chinese consumers was the proprietary bits that Google
included and the drivers were always closed source.

------
musicale
Apparently the solution to Valve, Microsoft, Apple, Google and gog.com online
game stores charging too much is to create yet another online game store.

~~~
blibble
and one that has brought back the scourge of exclusivity to the PC

essentially the opposite of openness

~~~
paulryanrogers
As a software producer I welcome a variety of platforms for distribution, even
ones own website. It reduces fees and increases competition. And as a gamer I
don't mind having more than one place to shop.

------
app4soft
> _Android is a fake open system, and iOS is worse_

 _Symbian OS_ is open system now.[0]

JFTR, _Symbian is alive!_ [1,2,3]

[0]
[http://web.archive.org/web/20100926094915/http://www.symbian...](http://web.archive.org/web/20100926094915/http://www.symbian.org/news-
and-media/2010/02/04/symbian-completes-biggest-open-source-migration-project-
ever)

[1] [https://github.com/mrRosset/Symbian-
Archive](https://github.com/mrRosset/Symbian-Archive)

[2] [https://github.com/EKA2L1/EKA2L1](https://github.com/EKA2L1/EKA2L1)

[3]
[https://github.com/search?o=desc&q=symbian+OR+s60+OR+pys60&s...](https://github.com/search?o=desc&q=symbian+OR+s60+OR+pys60&s=updated&type=Repositories)

------
diebeforei485
30% is high. However - I don't see any competitive reason to lower the take
rate (it's not going to realistically lead to people switching to another
device, the way price might).

The best they can do is wage a PR battle, and hopefully lower it to ~20%.

~~~
scarface74
As opposed to 60% for physical distribution?

------
pjmlp
The hypocrisy of arguing for openness when Epic also has a store, and it all
boils down to their profits.

If Epic would get their "Visa/Mastercard" discount, then Android, iOS or even
Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft wouldn't be so bad after all.

