
Ask HN: Love programming but hate my job at AmaGooFaceSoft, advice? - frustratedw2
Six months ago I landed a job as a software engineer at a top-tier tech company known as a dream employer. However, I feel very unmotivated and unproductive at work, and can&#x27;t wait for 5:00 to roll around so I can go home and work on my own side projects.<p>Before starting here I was working on bootstrapping my own company, which I absolutely loved even though it made almost no money. I&#x27;d work 12-16 hour days and enjoyed every minute of it, even the taxes and paperwork. I loved the feeling of controlling my own destiny and the tight feedback loop between my effort and business outcomes, which is totally missing now.<p>I&#x27;m planning sticking around at least another 6 months to vest my stock options and avoid a black mark on my resume. I have two questions for people who may have felt this way before:<p>1) How can I find ways to enjoy my current work more and provide more value for my current employer? I don&#x27;t want to feel like I&#x27;m defrauding them.<p>2) When choosing my next job, what job&#x2F;career alternatives should I consider, assuming I don&#x27;t have the resources to try to build another bootstrapped startup right now? I&#x27;m ok taking some risk if necessary but not &quot;you might work for two years and end up with nothing&quot; level of risk.
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deepaksurti
>> I feel very unmotivated and unproductive at work

We usually feel that when our potential is not satisfied and usually I think
people who have worked on their own end to end projects in companies or have
done start ups have a sharper antennae to know when they are wasting their
time.

But it could also be that you are wearing the entrepreneur hat while being an
employee, that can cause immense frustration. As an employee just be a great
team player, do the work assigned and most of the times try to be in 100-110%
range of your output and go home. Then work on your thing, where you wear the
entrepreneur hat. This is a nice trick that works if you push yourself a bit;
detach from the expectation of fulfillment from a job at least for now.

If nothing works, then you got to find a new job but before that you would
seriously think on the type of problems you would enjoy working on, verify
that with side projects or know that from your startup experience, apply till
you hit the right job. And if job is not a cup of tea, then part time remote
consulting and working on your own thing.

The point is you need to chill out and as others have pointed out, first be
happy that you are in a job at one of the top 4, enjoy the 8 hours your spend
there and use it as a leverage to course correct instead of throwing the baby
out with the bath tub, though I know you won't do that. Good luck!

~~~
crestedtazo
Personally, I try to remain in the 120% range at all times and NEVER dip below
110%. In my experience, just settling at a 100% output level is a great way to
get identified as a slacker. As a manager, I've cut many 100%s.

~~~
ragnore
You "try to remain in the 120% range" and have "cut many 100%s"?

I can't tell if this is a serious post or just a subtle and very talented
troll. I'm impressed.

~~~
taway_1212
Agreed. I'd lean slightly towards the troll, but maybe that shows that I'm
detached from the new reality.

~~~
chris11
Comment history says troll.

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nicholas73
Take the long view and enjoy yourself before you have kids. I felt the same
way as you before, but in retrospect 1) you have plenty of time outside of
work 2) the money you make is meaningful, you just don't know it yet.

Your rush has as more to do with your own psychological issues/needs (we all
have them) than anything about your employer. Who are you trying to impress?
What are you insecure about? What are you trying to make up for, or make
right?

You're in a very good spot right now. Just take it slowly and don't screw it
up. The time to quit is when you have your first customer and need more time
to scale up. Otherwise quitting your job won't help you get there any faster.

My main regrets are mainly of the "you dummy, you should have just asked her
out" type. As it turns out, you don't need a company for that.

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zer00eyz
What always makes or breaks a job for me isn't the job it self but the people
I work with.

I hate to say it but friendly one upmanship, humor and socialization are what
keep me going.

Are you friendly and social with your coworkers?

~~~
frustratedw2
This is a really good point. The moments I've most enjoyed in my tenure so far
have been when I had to come through for a colleague and I was able to do it.
My manager and coworkers are really awesome, and we usually all eat lunch
together, but yeah, I could definitely make an effort to strengthen those
bonds.

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JSeymourATL
> 1) How can I find ways to enjoy my current work more and provide more value
> for my current employer?

Start reaching out to senior leaders in the organization-- group heads,
directors, VPs for a friendly get acquainted/talk-shop coffee meeting. You'll
want to be attuned to corporate politics, be diplomatic. When appropriate--
ask if they need any particular help-- areas where they're struggling?
priority projects? Spec ideas that need nurturing?

There's huge value in helping senior leadership get what they want. It also
affords you a unique opportunity to peek into their 30K FT world view.

~~~
frustratedw2
Thanks, this is good advice. My immediate manager is awesome and has given me
lots of opportunities to work on this kind of strategic project, which I
haven't taken advantage of. I guess I've been worried about setting high
expectations that I'm not motivated enough to deliver. But if I got in the
position where I had committed myself to something concrete, my motivation
might rise to meet the challenge.

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PrimalPlasma
Unless you become your own boss it will be the same everywhere you go. And
even if you did become some successful entrepreneur, different problems will
arise.

Learn to live in the moment and be thankful for what you have. If you are
working at AmaGooFaceSoft, then you are one of the blessed people in this
world, the best of the best. It doesn't get better than that.

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spicyj
Sorry you're not enjoying your job.

In general, it sounds like you enjoy smaller places and a larger variety of
work where you have more ownership over your work. I'd guess you might be
happy at a startup of < 20 people and there are lots of startups that size
that would be happy to pay you a salary.

If you're at Facebook, feel free to message me – happy to (confidentially)
meet up sometime and chat about ideas for how you might enjoy your work more.

~~~
seattle_spring
Oh man, I wish I would have reached out before I left Facebook. I love your
team-- it was the main reason I joined was to work closer with you and the
other JS infra folks. I ended up feeling exactly like OP and moved on to a
startup, without trying to fix my situation.

I admit though that I'm much, much happier know. I do always ponder what life
would have been like had I worked harder at joining your ranks!

~~~
spicyj
If you might find it helpful still, my inbox is open. :)

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JoshTriplett
> 2) When choosing my next job, what job/career alternatives should I
> consider, assuming I don't have the resources to try to build another
> bootstrapped startup right now? I'm ok taking some risk if necessary but not
> "you might work for two years and end up with nothing" level of risk.

What's your side project? (Can you describe it in general terms without
specifically identifying it?) How well might it align with an existing
company? Can you think of a company that would pay you to work on it, either
full-time or as a major component of your job? Have an off-the-record
conversation with people associated with that project who work elsewhere; see
if someone might hire you. (Consider both the "doing it as a paid project"
angle and the "Open Source it and get a paycheck to work on it" angle.)

If your side project is something people want, getting a medium or large
company to pay you to work on it seems entirely plausible.

~~~
frustratedw2
Side project is an app to help people overcome addictions. I haven't released
it publicly and am unsure if it will be monetizeable and/or of interest to a
larger company. But yeah, if it gets any traction turning that into a job is
my plan "A". Based on the outcome of my last startup though, I'm also
interested in plan "B"s. :)

~~~
jmts
That depends entirely on the company or organisation. Perhaps you can find a
not-for-profit that works with recovering addicts? While it may not be
monetisable from a sales perspective, it may still have value and draw funding
from other sources.

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apohn
Being in a mundane job and checking out at 5 has it's benefits - you have both
the time and the energy to focus on the projects and people you actually care
outside of work hours. You also don't have to worry about money.

Your instincts may push you into a small startup where your work has immediate
impact and feedback, but there's a space between 10 employees at 100K
employees. I used to be in consulting (at a software company) and I worked
with everybody from small startups that wanted to partner to companies with
200K+ employees. I tended to enjoy working the most with companies with 1K-10K
employees. Those had interesting problems, interesting people, a sensible pace
of work, and a somewhat tolerable amount of processes and bureaucracy. 50K+
employees almost always felt like I was in a satire. With really large
companies (100K+), I came to understand how they could layoff 10% of the
employees and still go on like nothing happened.

I'm not telling you to stay at your current job(don't stay at a job you
hate!), but try to think about what you want your spare time to be like before
make a move. Going to a place with a constant stream of challenging and
interesting work might be nice at first, but after a while you might find your
energy for side projects is zero.

There must be teams at the big 4 where you get the opportunity to do some
interesting work and then go home and work on things that you are really
passionate about. JSeymourATL provided a great answer - Assuming it is
possible, network within the company and find a group that is doing something
you find interesting. Unfortunately some companies are too political to be
able to do this. Or you may have a horrible manager who will retaliate if you
try to do this.

All that being said, some people need to be in charge. They need to be
entrepreneurs. I know a brilliant engineer who owns a small construction
company now because he'll do anything to not report to somebody else. He
simply isn't built to have a boss and not have control of his work, or be
obligated to VCs for a tech startup.

~~~
frustratedw2
> Being in a mundane job and checking out at 5 has it's benefits - you have
> both the time and the energy to focus on the projects and people you
> actually care outside of work hours. You also don't have to worry about
> money.

I wouldn't describe my current work as mundane, for better or for worse. To be
successful here long term I'd need to spend a greater percentage of my mental
cycles on work than I've been able to muster so far. Not necessarily working
long hours, but definitely have work projects be the thing my mind falls back
to when I'm in the shower, if that makes sense.

I've thought about looking for a job as a line of business app developer in a
mid-sized non-tech company. I'd probably make about half of what I do now, and
everyone complains about how terrible the work conditions can be, but I'd have
a lot more mental space to work on my own thing on the side. Biggest downside
I see is the possibility that a position like that would have a long-term
negative impact on my career. But in the current hiring environment not a huge
concern.

> All that being said, some people need to be in charge. They need to be
> entrepreneurs.

I'm worried that this might be me. I try to imagine myself being happy even at
a small startup with lots of autonomy, and I suspect that even in those
circumstances I'd have a hard time feeling motivated to work hard to make
somebody else rich. :(

~~~
apohn
>I wouldn't describe my current work as mundane, for better or for worse. To
be successful here long term I'd need to spend a greater percentage of my
mental cycles on work than I've been able to muster so far. Not necessarily
working long hours, but definitely have work projects be the thing my mind
falls back to when I'm in the shower, if that makes sense.

You might want to reflect on this - how are you evaluating "percentage of
mental cycles on work?" Are you comparing it to other people in your team? Are
you comparing it to a person who gets "extra outstanding" on their employee
review or "good worker, happy they are here" on their employee review? I ask
because it's possible to be a good employee, do good work, and get to the
point where you can and do this without needing to think about work in the
shower. Usually it takes 3-6 months at a job before you figure out how you can
find that balance.

Is your perception about your commitment to your work skewed because you had
100% control before and you think that's how things need to be for you to be
satisfied at a 9-5 job?

Also, IMO if you are thinking about your job in the shower you are not
thinking about your side projects, something you are learning for fun, etc.
It's hard to be focused on life outside of your job if you are thinking about
your job outside of your job. A lot of people who think about their job in the
shower do so because of misery and stress, not because they care about the
work they do.

>I've thought about looking for a job as a line of business app developer in a
mid-sized non-tech company.

Please think carefully about this. If you're the type of person who needs to
care about your work, it's soul crushing to be in a job where you can't
possibly care about your work. I've had "I don't care" types of jobs before
where I did 2 hours of real work in a day. Those jobs are tolerable for a
while if your manager leaves you alone for those other 6 hours. I had one of
these, and I had the choice of asking my manager for more work (resulting in 6
hours of pointless busywork) or making it look like 2 hours of work took me 8
hours. In either scenario, I ended up going home frustrated and it was very
difficult to change to a mode where I could be productive with life outside of
work. I thought about work in the shower because I was miserable at work, and
a shower meant another day was coming where I had to go to work.

Also, part of being inspired as an entrepreneur is being in an environment
where you can be inspired. Many of these jobs are not that place.

> I'm worried that this might be me. I try to imagine myself being happy even
> at a small startup with lots of autonomy, and I suspect that even in those
> circumstances I'd have a hard time feeling motivated to work hard to make
> somebody else rich. :(

If it's you, don't worry about it - embrace it and figure out a way to make it
work. :) It's better to realize you're an entrepreneur who is trying to find
their way as an entrepreneur rather than being an entrepreneur who wishes they
were somebody else. Or the other side, there are people who really are 9-5
people who refuse to admit this and constantly dream about being
entrepreneurs.

You might not be able to figure out how to be an entrepreneur today, but
that's okay.

------
chatmasta
It sounds like you already know what you want: to start your own company. But
you are scared. You don't want to take the risk of leaving your company
("leaving a black mark on your resume"). If you are really passionate about
building a company, you shouldn't give a shit about what your resume looks
like or what people will think if you only worked at your current job for six
months. That is just not something entrepreneurs should worry about, because
you should always be 100% confident in your success, not worrying about what
you'll do if you fail!

Also, consider the fact that even if you work on this company for six months
and then fail/quit, employers won't think "this guy only worked at
AmaGooFaceSoft for 6 months." They will think "this guy took initiative and
spent 6 months building a cool product." You will positively impact your
resume by building the business more than you will negatively impact it by
leaving your current job before 1 year.

My advice is to ask yourself why you are scared. That seems like a signal that
you do not believe in your product. If you are not 100% confident you can
succeed, you shouldn't even start. Perhaps you should spend the next 6 months
at your job refining the product idea and building up a bank balance (salary +
options once they vest) to give yourself a 6+ month runway once you quit.

Also, don't be afraid of raising investment to cover your living expenses and
the opportunity cost of spending the next 6 months at your job. You don't need
to start with a million dollar round. You can raise enough to cover your
living expenses ($100-250k) from angels via convertible debt. You could do
this quite easily given your AmaGooFaceSoft background. Angel investors don't
care how long you worked there, but they see it as a positive signal that
AmaGooFaceSoft hired you in the first place. On the flipside, they would not
see it as a positive signal if you are not 100% confident in your product.

Feel free to email me. I hate large corporations and am always happy to
convince people to leave them.

~~~
frustratedw2
> If you are really passionate about building a company, you shouldn't give a
> shit about what your resume looks like or what people will think if you only
> worked at your current job for six months. That is just not something
> entrepreneurs should worry about, because you should always be 100%
> confident in your success, not worrying about what you'll do if you fail!

I like a lot of what you said, but with all due respect I don't think I'm your
intended audience for this pep talk. Remember, I just finished up two years
running my own bootstrapped startup that was making no money -- most people
wouldn't consider me particularly risk adverse. :) My life situation is now
such that I can't afford another extended break from the workforce for a while
at least.

Also, I think the "you should always be 100% confident in your success" (which
I've heard from other people as well) line of thinking is kinda BS. We _know_
most startups fail. Even most startups by smart, dedicated and hard-working
people fail. For the two years I was doing my own thing, I didn't spend much
time on backup plans, but I did keep my door open to recruiters and friends
who approached me with other opportunities. Not doing so would _not_ have made
my startup any more likely to succeed, and by doing so I ended up with a soft
landing at a prestigious and high-paying job, if nothing else. I think it's
much wiser to expect the best, but still prepare for the worst.

~~~
cefthurston
Agreed and the 6 month mark thing will raise eyebrows amongst employers, as
much as previous commenter things it won't. That kind of advice is meaningful
to folks outside the Valley who need a counter-balance to the irrational risk-
averseness that can occur there. For folks inside the Valley who've done
bootstrapped (like yourself) I think you have a finely tuned sense of what
will/won't look good to a potential employer and how something will be
interpreted.

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wayn3
I dont know how much excess money you make, but its probably enough to hire
someone from vietnam/india/the philipines on an either full-time or contract
basis to work for you. Use that person as a bona-fide employee for one of your
projects. This is probably not the highest impact hire you will ever make, but
mentally, you will shift from worrying about your day job to viewing your
dayjob as a means to an end to get one of your projects off the ground. That
is how you could align your job more with your real goals.

I dont really know how you would be vesting anything at Goog within just one
year, but apparently you do. Once "time is up", you take your talents to the
freelancing world and make twice an hour what you made at big company as an
employee. You are now the CEO of your company and you will make craploads of
money, if you play your cards right. You should have no trouble joining
Gigster, which is a way to do consulting without the very heavy lifting parts
of running your own consulting shop. There, you will feel a lot more like
being a decision-maker. Out of your vastly increased income, you take some
money to bootstrap whatever you want, you could even just do a couple mini
experiments and use the remaining money to funnel into savings/living.

Fulltime employment in the US is a trap. Its at-will, anyway. Working fulltime
comes with less job security than contracting (no "hiring manager" will ever
question my rate. It is simply my rate and doesnt get measured against "market
value". when a hiring manager hires a contractor, they buy a serivce, not add
to payroll). In other parts of the world, fulltimers take a salary cut in
exchange for superior job security. In the US, fulltimers take a salary cut to
be someones bitch, mostly. Additionally, as a contractor, I dont get black
marks on my resume. I worked a contract with a client. Even if they
unceremoniously fired me, all I got to say is "contract ended". Since it was
never assumed to be forever anyway, nobody is going to bother. I solved their
problem, they didn't need me anymore, mission accomplished.

Funny: I was going to reply that you shouldn't call out your employer and it
took me a minute to understand the acronym. facepalm of the day.

~~~
frustratedw2
> You should have no trouble joining Gigster, which is a way to do consulting
> without the very heavy lifting parts of running your own consulting shop.
> There, you will feel a lot more like being a decision-maker. Out of your
> vastly increased income, you take some money to bootstrap whatever you want,
> you could even just do a couple mini experiments and use the remaining money
> to funnel into savings/living.

Contracting is definitely something I've considered. If net pay were similar
(or higher!), I'd definitely be interested. Would you mind if I asked you a
bit more about what kind of contracting you do? If you wouldn't mind, contact
me at "hn0s4@slipry.net".

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zmoreira
Have children.

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vthallam
I feel you.

Get a PM job with focus on tech and business. Majority of the people who have
an entrepreneurial mind succeed as a product manager. You like the hustle
which goes into building something and being a dev in a big team building
something wouldn't get you that experience.

I am kinda in the same boat and trying to see if i fit in as a PM.

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rajacombinator
Just grind it out at BigCo and continue bootstrapping your side project until
it seems promising enough to jump ship.

------
bbcbasic
One perspective that might help is how can your job help you as an
entrepreneur? What can you learn / gain:

1\. After 2 years say you can say you are "ex-google employee" which would
help with marketing credibility. People will thing "ah he is smart!"

2\. Procedures and processes Google use - you can cherry pick the best for
your business.

3\. Contacts - get to know some excellent developers and when they eventually
move on you can build a team with them.

4\. Ideas - you might be exposed to some interesting problems that would form
the basis of your business.

5\. Money - save hard and build a buffer for your new venture.

6\. Negotiation - keep trying to get promoted and increase your salary. This
helps with #5 and #2 and also negotiation skills needed for your business.

