
Living in a van - an inspirational story of frugality and achievement - imajes
http://www.salon.com/life/pinched/story/index.html?story=/news/pinched/2009/12/06/living_in_a_van
======
kiddo
This line caught my attn:

"Not including tuition, I lived (and lived comfortably) on $103 a week, which
covered my necessities: food, gas, car insurance, a cellphone and visits to
the laundromat."

To each his own, but if it was me and I wanted to live on $103 a week I would
skip the van (-$1500), gas, car insurance, and probably cell phone too. I know
you can find rooms in Durham for under $300 a month. Find a friend to share
the room with and you're each paying $150 a month. You then have windows
(fresh air), a kitchen, shower and toilet. Maybe buy a bicycle from the
Salvation Army for $10 and you're more than set.

~~~
cma
I think it is all pocket change compared to what he is paying to attend Duke.
From his blog:

"Anonymous said... I'm curious why you chose a very expensive private uni over
a public. Perhaps you could write an article on that from a frugal
perspective. Cost/Benefit comparison?"

I'd love to see his response. Particularly since a common theme here on HN is
that you go to an elite school to be with intelligent, driven people; the
classes are almost superfulous. You could get them via open courseware if you
really wanted to be frugal.

I bring this up because according to his article the van caused him to avoid
all contact outside of classes with other students for fear of being found out
and reported. Seems like he isn't frugal at all, unless he just wants the
cheapest path to a 'prestigious' degree and doesn't actually want the best
experience he can get. But being in anything for 'prestige' seems antithetical
to the type of thought pattern that would lead you to live in a van. The whole
thing comes off confused (and braggardly... "60 miles north of the Artic
Circle," etc., etc.)

~~~
dimitar
His reply:

"Anon-I chose an expensive private school because it wasn't that expensive for
me. Typically it's $3000/course but they knocked it down to about $1000/course
for me because of my destitution. Public school wouldn't have been any
cheaper. Another good question might be: why didn't you just try to get your
school paid for like most grad students? My answer: I tried this. I applied to
6 history phd programs and 4 MFA writing programs and got denied from all of
them. And I'm glad I got denied. I'm better off in Liberal Studies, which
keeps me from becoming "specialized" in something, which I wish to avoid like
the plague."

------
rauljara
I have a grad-student friend who is much better off financially than the
blogger, but decided to go the van route himself after reading about other van
dwellers on line. I think the primary motivation was a desire to achieve as
much independence as possible. He could quit his job tomorrow and not have to
worry about scraping up any money for years, his only real concerns being cell
phone, car insurance, gas, and food. He had other, environmental reasons (not
being a consumer) for doing it as well, but basically I think you have to be
obsessed with independence to take a step like this.

I admire people who are able to do it. Myself? No desire for it at all. I'm
perfectly all right with the idea of interdependence.

~~~
joshu
What happens when you have to take your house in for service?

~~~
bretthoerner
This was asked in regards to the RV link posted a month ago. He said most
places that service RVs and vans are setup to work on them during the day and
allow you access to it at night. Otherwise you spend a little more that week
for a really cheap hotel. Big deal, it's a lot less than what you'd pay per
month on average.

------
adriana
While the adventure of van-living is fun and the rant on loans and cost of
education are true, I think you can get the education you need in a
financially responsible way without having to live in a smelly van all alone.
I made it through my undergrad by working part-time, living at home, and going
to state and community colleges. It took me over 5 years but I had no loans of
any kind at then end. Maybe that's the difference between CS and English
majors.

~~~
cma
The adventure of van-living isn't always fun:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=917395>

------
Scott_MacGregor
Dude, I’m not judging you but if you are homeless and living in a van and
having trouble getting regular meals here is something that might help you out
a little. It is going to get very cold soon.

There is a program called Section-8 vouchers that might be able to help you
out. I think you can just pick an apartment and the state of North Carolina
will pay for it. They get reimbursed by the federal government from the taxes
we pay.

Here is a link from the Durham Housing Authority near Duke University:
<http://www.durhamhousingauthority.org/>

Best of Luck

------
bengebre
He also has a blog (which is often excellent) here:

<http://spartanstudent.blogspot.com/>

------
Locke1689
_Most undergrads imagine they'll effortlessly pay off their loans when they
start getting paid the big bucks; they're living in a state of denial,
disregarding the implications of a tough job market and how many extra years
of work their spending sprees have sentenced them to. But "facts do not cease
to exist because they are ignored," as Aldous Huxley famously said._

No, they don't. The facts are that your prospects as an English major are, on
average, fairly dim. However, your assumption that everyone will be in your
position after graduation is woefully self-absorbed.

 _I have sympathy for my fellow students. I did many of the same things when I
was an undergrad. Plus, escaping student debt -- no matter how frugal they try
to be -- is nearly impossible. Even if they do resort to purchasing a large
creepy van, most will still have to go tens of thousands of dollars into debt
to pay for tuition._

I think not.

 _The idea of "thrift," once an American ideal, now seems almost quaint to
many college students, particularly those at elite schools. The typical
student today is not so frugal. Few know where the money they're spending is
coming from and even fewer know how deep they're in debt. They're detached
from the source of their money. That's because there is no source. They're
getting paid by their future selves._

And? He states this like it's _prima facie_ ridiculous. The world runs on non-
liquid assets and loans. If he thinks that he's somehow permanently escaped
loans and debt he is going to have a rude awakening when he goes to buy a
house and needs to take out a mortgage. Of course, he could always choose
never to buy a house and live in a van for the rest of his life, but that
completely ruins his idea of how "sensible" he is for avoiding college loans.

In essence, if he enjoys living frugally and does it for internal reasons
(Thoreau's ideal) then that is perfectly fine. However if he believes that he
is somehow in a better living and financial situation than the rest of his
peers he is simply deluding himself. Yes, college education is exorbitant and
yes loans make take years, even decades, to pay off. However, the idea that
loans are _obviously_ a negative thing have no basis in math or economics. One
can construct situations in which loans and debt result in disaster, sure, but
one can also create similar situations that have no negative consequence. That
is, it is not the loan itself which is _prima facie_ negative, but the
circumstances surrounding it.

~~~
patrickgzill
Your statement "However, the idea that loans are obviously a negative thing
have no basis in math or economics" seems a little odd, in that he is
putatively trying to live without debt.

Mathematically speaking, the sum of the amount of money he will have left
after x years is greater if he has no loans, which have interest attached to
them.

~~~
Locke1689
_Mathematically speaking, the sum of the amount of money he will have left
after x years is greater if he has no loans, which have interest attached to
them._

With a huge penalty in disposable income while in grad school. Spending more
in the long term and spending less in the short term are two different cases
-- neither of which is objectively better than the other. The better is
dependent on circumstances.

------
slapshot
Wait -- his mom offered to buy him lodging (and possibly tuition). Is it
really "frugal" to turn down a place to sleep, or just shortsighted?

~~~
willhf
Well put.

Does the world not already provide enough difficult challenges? I encourage
others to test themselves by endeavoring to make the world a better place.

Yes, I know that sounds condescending, but I cannot stand the author's self-
absorbtion: "By making life harder for myself, I prove how macho I am!"

~~~
Psyonic
You're being downvoted, but I think you bring up an interesting contrarian
position that I'm surprised so many here disagree with. Couldn't he be working
on a startup, instead of living off rice in an ant-filled van?

~~~
bretthoerner
> instead of living off rice in an ant-filled van

Uh, I think you mean "instead of going to graduate school."

~~~
potatolicious
Plenty of people go to grad school on limited means and still manage to live
in a heated, watered apartment. IMHO this whole exercise seems more like an
attempt to escape consumerism (in whatever way the author has defined it),
more than it is about being able to afford education.

~~~
misuba
The author is 100% clear that the exercise is an attempt to escape debt. He's
got plenty of options if he just wants to afford an education.

~~~
Psyonic
Exactly our point. He's going to great lengths to avoid any debt, which in
this society is a bit masochistic. A little debt for your future isn't going
to kill you.

------
bootload
_"... I was only a few dollars away from having to rummage through Dumpsters
to find my next meal. I was -- by conventional first-world definitions -- poor
..."_

I was talking to a mate while working on his property ~
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/sets/72157621928042355...](http://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/sets/72157621928042355/)
and the talk moved around to some friends we'd gone to school with. One in
particular, _"R"_ went to medical school, expensive anywhere. He mentioned the
lecturer asked _"R"_ one day why he wasn't writing anything down and found out
he couldn't afford a pen. Now _"R"_ saved for all the required medical books,
clothed & fed himself but had nothing left for things like pens & paper. It
didn't stop him from becoming a surgeon and rotating as an Army surgeon
through the ADF.

 _"... To me, the van was what Kon-Tiki was to Heyerdahl, what the GMC van was
to the A-Team, what Walden was to Thoreau. It was an adventure. ..."_

 _"Kon-Tiki"_ ~ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki> is a papyrus boat
sailed from Morocco to Barbados by Heyerdahl as shown the film, _"The Ra
Expedition"_ ~ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThorHeyerdahl#TheBoatsRaandRaII>

------
lhuang
This reminds me of an experiment I did in college to see how small of a food
budget I could go on while still maintaining three healthy (and delicious)
meals per day.

I think I got it down to under $2/meal with a carb, protein, and veggie/fruit
component to each meal. Pretty amazing when you factor in that I did ~50% of
my shopping at Whole Foods. (they have quite competitive prices when it comes
to frozen veggies and dried pasta)

Amazing how far money will go when you don't have very much of it.

~~~
MikeCapone
Could you give us a sample ingredient list/menu for a typical day?

~~~
Luyt
Probably involves a lot of peanut butter ;-)

~~~
lhuang
haha peanut butter and... rice.

------
sliverstorm
It's cool and all, but I've found attempting to live too sparsely compromises
what I get from school. If I eat too frugally, I can't think properly. If I
try to save too much on transportation by sleeping on campus, I am not well
rested.

As my parents told me when I was hemming and hawing about whether or not I
should buy a certain text book for a class, or try to get by without it- I'm
already paying thousands and thousands of dollars in tuition and living
expenses; I should get the most I can out of it, even if it means buying that
$150 book.

Or, to put it more simply- penny wise, pound foolish. I've come to realize I
agree; I'd rather go into debt and make the most of college than scrape by as
cheap as I can, and not learn anything.

------
giardini
He learned to live like the homeless: tucked away in his van, quietly hoping
campus security didn't notice (they probably were generously keeping an eye on
him and his van for his own sake). Seems a stretch to romanticize his
lifestyle vis-a-vis Thoreau, who lived in the wilds rather than a parking lot.
And he's a long way from Thoreau as a writer:

 _"During rainstorms, I listened to millions of raindrops drum against the
roof and watched them wiggle like sperm down my windows."_

Caught between the security guards and the sperm, it seems a bit isolating,
nearly paranoid.

~~~
bbg
Thoreau's cabin was only 45 minutes' walk outside of Concord, however.

------
dpritchett
See also this HN thread from October:

"Living in an RV as an Internet Nomad- 3G, solar, cost savings, and
flexibility."

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=910626>

------
noisedom
Good for him I guess. Personally, I wouldn't have minded the financial help,
but everyone has their own idea of what path to follow for happiness. Kudos
for having the discipline to stick with his plan.

If anyone is interested in a CS student counterpart to this guy, follow the
link below:

<http://www.newhavenadvocate.com/article.cfm?aid=14809>

------
ja27
This site is full of "stealth" camper stories like that. Pretty creative
people and some fascinating reading.

<http://cheaprvliving.com/>

------
danteembermage
These are fun:

<http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/houses/purchase/>

The chance the security guard keeps walking is much lower though.

------
joshu
I like the bit where he's paranoid about being discovered so he lies about
where he lives, etc. Perhaps Salon has less readership than I'd imagined...

~~~
allenbrunson
most recent entry from his blog:

    
    
      1. My identity is revealed.
      2. Duke knows about the van.
      3. I... am... fucked.
    

<http://spartanstudent.blogspot.com/2009/12/no-he-dint.html>

~~~
smhinsey
It seems really odd that he'd use his real name in the byline. Getting caught
after doing that is not exactly an unforeseeable consequence, which means he
was probably ready to move on to the next phase anyway, and getting the byline
is more valuable to him than maintaining the status quo.

My guess? He's going after a book deal or something.

------
mfalcon
I loved the post, could you recommend other sites about the minimalist
lifestyle?.

~~~
blimpyboy
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/09/mark-
boyle...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/09/mark-boyle-money)

------
bitwize
Yow. Patrick Farley meets Chris Farley.

