
Where Dutch directness comes from - starpilot
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20180131-where-dutch-directness-comes-from?source=techstories.org
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DoreenMichele
Dupe:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16280485](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16280485)

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pan69
> We chose our seats and waited, but the waiter was nowhere to be seen. When
> he finally materialised, seemingly out of nowhere, he didn’t ask ‘What would
> you like to order’, or ‘What can I get you?’. He said ‘What do you want?’.
> Maybe it was the fact that he’d said it in English, or maybe he was just
> having a bad day, but I was shocked nonetheless.

It wasn't rudeness, it was just translated from Dutch to English, i.e. how you
would say it in Dutch but with English words. Something like; "Wat wil je?"

Just because the Dutch speak English well, doesn't mean they communicate well
in English.

When I moved from the Netherlands to Australia 12 years ago I could speak
English very well. However, there is a big difference in speaking a language
and expressing yourself in it.

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gutnor
Also "What do you want" is not really a great example of directness. That's
either passive-aggressive, leaving the customer guess if they have done
something wrong, or it is, as you suggested, just a lost in translation case.

"What can I get you" is a proper direct, clean way to indicate you are ready
to take order. Compare that to London in hype-ish restaurant where you get
"Hi, how are you doing today, my name is X" which you need to understand is
your cue to engage in a business transaction instead of chitchat.

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pan69
I agree with you. It's just that "What can I get you" is a the proper
"cultural" way to say it in English. In Dutch you say it differently, so a lot
of Dutch (not being exposed to the proper cultural English way of saying
things) just speak Dutch with English words. It's this that makes it sound
harsh.

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hyperpallium
But isn't it also direct in Dutch?

To put it in context: is there a way to say it even more directly in Dutch?
Or, is it more that Dutch lacks different levels of directness?

Perhaps similiarly to how English lacks the extensive polite forms of
Japanese.

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pan69
I think in Dutch it would be more the "tone", how it is asked, rather than the
actual words. Imagining myself being a rude Dutch waiter, the rudest I could
ask it in Dutch would probably by just saying "Ja?" (as in, Yes) in a grumpy
tone. But if I say the same thing in a friendly way, it would probably be just
fine for most occasions.

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matt4077
I know people here are in love with this concept, considering this is the
second or third time this rather tabloid(ish) and off-topic article has made
it to the front page.

So, some words of warning to those considering the Netherlands a paradise for
their first amendment rights that are being trampled in the US:

"Being direct" does indeed allow to cut through the rhetorical gymnastics
Brits and Americans have to go through to offer criticism. You can say "This
result is wrong" or "I can never show this draft to the client", instead of
"There is potential in your writing" or "You are extremely creative in your
use of mathematical notation".

It does not mean you can denigrate others just because you don't like their
type. That Google guy would have been fired in the Netherlands just as fast as
he did in the US.

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BirdieNZ
Which Google guy?

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DoreenMichele
I am guessing James Damore.

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cooper12
Eh, this seems to me to be in the vein of other articles that tend to
fetishize cultures other than ours. As a New Yorker, I've heard constantly
about how we're all aggressive, rude, direct, confrontational, etc. While,
like most stereotypes, there might be a sliver of truth, my experience has
been quite different. People will keep to themselves, avoid confrontation
(even moving to a different subway car if they're bothered by something); it's
more that less is said, such as callously shoving past someone on a crowded
sidewalk, or being passive-aggressive. I know articles like these appeal to
the HN crowd since they're techies who are deficient in social skills, and
crusade against "PC culture" and other niceties. But in real life, being
overly direct will quickly get you labeled as unpleasant. Small talk and the
like actually do have a purpose.

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yesenadam
I have a kind of philosophical dictionary called Talking Philosophy (written
by an Australian) which says that when a philosopher at Oxford disagrees with
another they say "Quite. But at the same time..", while in Sydney they say
"Bullshit!"

