
The Problem with 'Boys Will Be Boys' - wahnfrieden
http://kateelliottsff.tumblr.com/post/51134366578/the-problem-with-boys-will-be-boys
======
hello_newman
I get what she is doing. I know it must be hard, as a mom, to watch your
little girl work hard to build her castles (little kids get so attached to
things) only to have "some boy" repeatedly knock it down.

However, I have a real problem with this statement on the last paragraph;

"Take each of these three boys and consider what he might do when he’s older,
say, at college, drunk at a party, mad at an ex-girlfriend who rebuffs him and
uses words that she expects will be meaningful and respecte, “No, I don’t want
to. Stop. Leave.”

Really?

That's not fair. Just because he is a little boy who likes knocking down some
girls castle, why is he all the sudden destined to be a rapist come the time
he is in college? The thing that gets me the most is it is totally OK for a
woman to say that about a guys.

This gem too; "The “overarching attitudinal characteristic” of abusive men is
entitlement."

I have no problem against feminism (I assume she is), but my only gripe about
it, is it does not promote woman as equals; feminism inevitably turns into
"man bashing". If men were to say the same thing, but reversed, we would be
labeled as "sexist" or a "misogynist". Women, on the other hand, are applauded
as "independent" or "free thinkers".

Sigh.

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jimzvz
This whole "all men are rapists" or "all men are potential rapists" message
that is constantly being shoved down our throats must surely be hugely
damaging to our society. This accusing video[1] stands out amongst my early
exposure to something along these lines. I remember feeling angry that such
scorn was directed towards me just because of my gender.

I am a very gentle person, I would never hurt anyone, I rescue insects from
the swimming pool but yet I am being told that I am a potential monster. I
don't like that. I found this documentary[2] very interesting.

[1] -
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oZpuY97i_k](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oZpuY97i_k)
[2] -
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5AOj6EhRuY](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5AOj6EhRuY)

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rayiner
I just can't understand how parents can think like that. My parents were never
very disciplinarian, but one thing I got _zero_ leeway with was being
disrespectful to other people. Even when the other person was like "oh, it's
okay, he's just a kid!" my parents would chew me the fuck out.

~~~
btilly
It is simple cognitive dissonance.

Parents work hard at being parents, and then naturally take pride in being
good parents. Once you take pride in it, you naturally tend to reject any
information out of hand which could cause you to question your certainty that
you're a good parent. This in turn means that any evidence that your child's
behavior is in any way out of line is rejected, excuses are made, and you
quickly convince yourself that your child's behavior is normal and does not
indicate that any intervention is required from his or her wonderful parents.

Humans go through the same phenomena with _anything_ that we become proud of
ourselves about. For example a developer can conclude that a bug must lie with
the operating system, the compiler, the test environment, the stupid QA person
not testing right, etc until the bug is found. At which point said developer
will quickly conclude it was a minor typo, forget about it, and keep the
evidence from indicating that there might be a problem with the developer's
skills.

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tillinghast
The problem isn't "Boys Will Be Boys" it's "Parents Aren't Being Parents".
It's not a gender issue. I've seen quite a few destructive tyrants, and I've
seen quite a few screeching harpies. The common factor is a spineless parent.

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snogglethorpe
> _...destructive tyrants, and ... screeching harpies. The common factor is a
> spineless parent._

... and typically they all seem to be seated in the row next to mine when I
fly. The ability of some parents to calmly read a magazine and smile
indulgently while their kid screams his head off and generally runs amok in a
cramped and crowded space where nobody can leave is ... quite astonishing....
(13 hours left, only 13 hours...TT)

~~~
btilly
Are you aware that refusing to engage with children undergoing temper tantrums
is a standard technique for avoiding having them become more intense? (The
calm you're frustrated at could well have been a deliberate act.) Have you
also considered that tantrums are a phase that can last some time? (Think
months. If you're lucky.) And finally, being on an airplane is going to
present a lot for a kid to get frustrated about, and therefore many
opportunities for unexpected tantrums even in kids who might be beyond them in
other contexts.

Having been on both sides of this equation (with kids who were, luckily for
me, better behaved than most), I have far more sympathy for the plight of the
parents than I once did. Yes, I know it is painful and frustrating. It is for
the parents as well.

Is it better to let the kid do things that might annoy others for the purpose
of trying to avoid a worse tantrum? Or try to control the kid at the risk of
having an explosion. If the worst happens, you know you can't realistically
try to explain the basics of tantrums to all of the non-parents trapped in the
plane with your screaming child. Or, even worse, the parents who were lucky
with the genetic draw and wrongly credit their child's good behavior to their
wonderful parenting skills. (I have a sister who learned this one first hand.
Her third was by a different father than her first two, and she quickly lost
all of her inner smugness about how wonderfully behaved her kids were.) You
are going to be as trapped as they are, with the knowledge that they blame you
and have no clue.

I understand if you've not been there. But it is not as simple as you think.
Really.

~~~
tillinghast
While I'm not flip-flopping my position at all, I totally respect that it's a
difficult job. I've got 8 kids, and I can't guarantee that on any given day I
won't encounter a tyrant or a harpy. :-)

~~~
btilly
I didn't respond to your original comment because I agree with your position.
I've seen a lot of cases where parents are obviously not doing their job.

However I've had the "fun" experience of traveling with imperfectly behaved
small children, and so the other person hit a button.

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300bps
Equating in any way or to any degree a 4 year old boy knocking down a 4 year
old girl's castle at playtime to rape is disgusting.

~~~
BruceIV
I think the point is that character is formed early, and in small ways, and
it's better to form a character of respect for others and their property.

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djent
This blog post is not about parenting or differences in upbringing between
genders. It is a metaphor for rape, which is this feminist blogger's real
topic.

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snogglethorpe
Some of the excuses from the boy's parents: "You know! Boys will be boys!”
“He. Just. Can’t. Help himself!”

Wait, isn't it a parent's _job_ to teach their kid how to "help himself"...?

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Udo
I don't think the issue is _inherently_ about gender, and as such the
invocation of rape analogies seems a bit of a stretch. On the other hand,
dismissing these actions on account of the children's age seems overly naive.

I remember when I was little, I liked to build things (hey, I still do!). Sand
castles, cardboard contraptions, anything out of anything really. I would say
I was a builder. Most of the other kids seemed apathetic to anything that
didn't involve chasing each other around while screaming at the top of their
lungs, but I remember a small minority of the other kids were of a different
category still: they were the opposite of me. They were destroyers, and they'd
come over to annihilate pretty much anything my friends or I had built. This
was a pattern that lasted with variations from Kindergarten to Junior High.

I'm not sure what makes a lot of kids so destructive, but they sure seem to
derive joy from tormenting others. This behavior can probably fixed with
parental intervention, but I agree with the author here that's generally not
happening. I know this defense as "kids will be kids", and it does ring as
hollow today as it did when I was little. If some kids have no morality of
their own, they sure should be conditioned to at least act as if they did.

Following this line of thought I would like to de-emphasize the rape aspect,
though I cede that being aggressive, destructive, and domineering is certainly
something that is actually _expected_ of boys. I know, because I had a hard
time being accepted as a real male by my peers throughout puberty. However,
the core consequence I think is not necessarily an increased incidence of
sexual assaults, but more fundamentally a toxic acceptance of destructive
behavior throughout society in general.

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ams6110
If the little girl had smacked the little boy in the face when he knocked down
her castle, I bet he wouldn't have done it again.

~~~
BruceIV
So knocking down castles is okay if you can also overpower the builder so she
can't hit you?

~~~
mikestew
Is it okay? Most would say "no", especially when applied to the metaphor that
the blog writer is going for. Is it how the larger world works in many cases?
Sadly, yes.

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slashdotdotorg
What is this trash doing on HN?

