

China’s bystander problem: Another death after crowd ignores woman in peril - Blahah
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/10/24/chinas-bystander-problem-another-death-after-crowd-ignores-woman-in-peril/

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b6
I'm American, and lived in China for two years. It's common to see things on
the street that you don't understand, even for natives, and it's not prudent
to take what you're seeing at face value. There are lots of scams, so one's
first instinct is to hang back and protect oneself. Those times when I did get
involved to ask if people needed help, it was always somewhat coldly and
hurriedly refused, probably because the people I was offering to help feared
that _I_ was up to something. At the risk of making a racial/cultural
generalization, Chinese people do not trust each other as much as Westerners
do. I wish I understood this phenomenon better.

And, at least in big cities, there is so much going on, and so many people.
Surely this makes bystander effect much worse. I like to help, but when
problems happened, it was almost always the smart thing to do to just get out
of the way.

~~~
a8da6b0c91d
> Chinese people do not trust each other as much as Westerners do

There is an interesting line of thought that high trust societies are caused
by out-breeding. The medieval european church forbade cousin marriage for
centuries out to something like third cousin. This broke up the clans and
arguably made cohesive western nations possible. Today in much of the non-
western world first cousin marriage is still normal. I believe _most_ arab
marriages are to first cousins. In the places where it's most prevalent you do
tend to see clannish behavior and indifference/viciousness to the out-group.

Dunno if it's really true, but it does seem to fit various historical
developments.

With China I think maybe you have to keep in mind what a scarring catastrophe
Maoism was. Middle class people and values were systematically purged.

~~~
magicalist
> _Today in much of the non-western world first cousin marriage is still
> normal. I believe most arab marriages are to first cousins_

First _and_ second cousins, and only in a few countries, and much of the
collected data you'll find on the topic is 40-50 years old[1]. But what does
that have to do with China?

> _Dunno if it 's really true, but it does seem to fit various historical
> developments_

This is a really dangerous line of anthropological reasoning; certainly non-
scientific at the very least.

[1]
[http://www.consang.net/index.php/Main_Page](http://www.consang.net/index.php/Main_Page)
has a long bibliography. Unrelated: the site feels a little creepy...I don't
totally understand the purpose of having a standalone site for the topic.
However, the citations appear legitimate.

~~~
a8da6b0c91d
> dangerous line of anthropological reasoning

Oh no! Thoughtcrime?

It's perfectly amenable to science. I just don't happen to know the supporting
science well myself.

~~~
Volpe
Are you saying chinese are predominantly inbred?

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GrinningFool
The hell?

This isn't China's problem - it's a human problem[1].

This is why the first step in many first aid classes is for the care giver to
identify _one_ person among bystanders and instruct that person to call
emergency services. Not "somebody call 911" because it's possible that nobody
will - but "you, call 911. Do it now".

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese)

~~~
mjmahone17
From your source: "the common portrayal of neighbors being fully aware but
completely unresponsive has since been criticized as inaccurate."

Also, if you read the article, it mentioned Kitty Genovese, and how the tale
was likely apocryphal. That being said, the issue isn't that there is a
bystander effect, but why in China it seems like the bystander effect is
higher than in other nations.

~~~
Volpe
Well before we jump to conclusions, is it higher than other countries?

There is obviously a lot of selection bias here...

~~~
Gigablah
China is a huge place too; is it uniformly higher, or only in certain
urbanized areas?

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Gustomaximus
By contrast, in Norway if a medically trained person like a doctor or nurse
walks past someone who needs assistance they can be stripped of their right to
practice. And I think they can be fined/charged also.

Did a Google search and found there are duty to rescue laws in many places:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue)

Edit: Changed Wiki link from mobile to desktop version.

~~~
qwerta
Here is similar rule, but doctor can always claim he was tipsy or otherwise
unable to help.

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tokenadult
I have been helped by passers-by more times than I can remember here in
Minnesota. One memorable occasion, on my first winter here after living in
Taiwan for three years, was using my forgotten skills in driving on a snowy
road to go to a meeting with friends. On the way back home, my car spun off a
freeway entrance, burying itself into a snowbank just off the side of the
driving lane. Within less than a minute, a woman passing by stopped and asked
if she could help. Within no more than a minute more, a man driving a pickup
truck worked out how to push my car out of the snowbank and back on to the
freeway ramp. I see people stopping to help strangers here all the time.

I was walking home from a research run to the local public library the other
day when I had a chance to be the helpful bystander. A woman at the local gas
station, who appeared to be a South Asian woman in her forties, asked me to go
over to her car. She was trying to fill her tires with air, but couldn't get
the stem cap off from one of her tires. After I fiddled with it for a while, I
was able to remove it. I asked her if she needed any more help, and she said
no. She apparently had a high enough degree of social trust to ask a stranger
to approach her.

Most of the personal injury situations I observe in my American life are young
people injured at soccer games--always with bystanders around who know the
children, often including medical doctors or nurses--or children who have
fallen off their bikes. Whenever I see something like that, I respond. Once
when one of my children fell off his bike and broke his arm, he was with two
siblings (on the way home from the same library I frequent) and they worked
out to send one child home speedily by bike, while the other sibling walked
the other bikes and my injured son in the direction of home. I was able to
meet up with him halfway and drive him to the hospital. We live in a safe
neighborhood here, and part of what makes it safe is that neighbors look out
for one another.

Social trust is almost always lower in dictatorships than in well functioning
democracies. (My two stays in Taiwan, one in the early 1980s under the
dictatorship, and one around the turn of the century after democratization,
provided vivid examples of that.) People in Taiwan have always been very kind
to foreigners in low-danger encounters. But I recall more bystander neglect
amid the frequent traffic crashes of motorcycles there under the dictatorship
than over a similar time span under the freely elected government. China
probably has to move in the direction of more political power to the people
and less censorship of information channels to build up more social trust and
more care for strangers.

~~~
prawn
For every horror story, there are bound to be examples of people helping when
they had no need to.

Near Lijiang in China, a middle-aged couple stopped to help my brother and I
who were stranded and in need of a lift, miles from a town. We are 6'3" and
6'9". They didn't seem fearful at all (and had no reason to be) and were more
than happy to take us along with them.

In Switzerland this year, I got stranded waiting for a bus near midnight in
the mountains with full luggage, wife and a baby. A woman had her husband come
along, pile us and all our luggage into their little car, and drive us up to
the gondola so we didn't have to wait for 40 minutes with an hysterical child
in the dark. (It wasn't overly cold or dangerous, just very uncomfortable and
we'd been travelling for almost 12 hours.)

Maybe it's life and death situations where people are far more wary?

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arjn
It not just China, I've seen this in India too. I've also noticed another
thing about it - In India its the poor people who are much more willing to
help compared to the middle and upper-middle class people. I call it the "not
my problem" problem.

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danjaouen
While I don't doubt the veracity of this article, it is wildly presumptuous to
characterize an entire nation based on one or two isolated, anecdotal
incidents.

How would we feel if the rest of the world characterized Americans by the
antics of single individuals, like Lindsay Lohan or Miley Cyrus?

~~~
bbuffone
I lived in china for 2.5 years and american's are characterized by its
celebrities. In the beginning, i spent most of my lunch time conversations
explaining that... No i do not own a gun, but i also explained many times as
the men told me they stopped drinking as they prepared to have children....
That is odd; most children in the US are conceived by parents that were drunk.

~~~
jamesbritt
_most children in the US are conceived by parents that were drunk._

What? Consider me skeptical.

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austinz
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect)

I know the author of the news article pooh-poohs the common depiction of the
Kitty Genovese murder as not being true, but that has nothing to do with the
veracity of the effect as a whole (or the other examples provided on that
Wikipedia page).

~~~
Permit
I think there is a distinct difference between not wanting to put yourself in
harms way by getting involved with a murder and taking photos of someone who
has their head stuck in a guard rail.

~~~
austinz
From that link: "In April 2010 Hugo Alfredo Tale-Yax was stabbed to death in
New York City after coming to the aid of a woman who was being attacked by a
robber. Yax was on the sidewalk for more than an hour before firefighters
arrived. Almost twenty-five people walked by while he lay dying on a sidewalk
in Queens, several stared at Yax; one of them took pictures, however none of
them helped or called emergency services".

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jpollock
When you come to a pedestrian crossing with someone already there, do you wait
patiently, assuming that they have pressed the button, or do you push the
button?

I tend to push the button, but that doesn't stop me feeling guilty about it. I
feel that I am indicating to the other individual that I think they are too
stupid to have pushed it.

Would the same thing happen with accidents? If you come across an accident
with someone already there, do you call the police, or do you assume they've
already been called?

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l33tbro
I have seen this happen in Shanghai. An elderly woman lying on a busy road.
People took photos of me while i helped her up and took her to the side. When
you experience this first hand, it is really hard not to feel enraged by the
spineless gawkers. My natural instincts felt like doing some damage to these
citizen paparazzi, but my head knew that this would be a foolish move that
wouldn't solve a thing. You just have to chalk it up to a cultural difference
snd not get emotional about it.

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16s
It's been my experience that many cultures have this problem, not just China.

~~~
colmvp
Indeed. I was in London with a group of people a few years back and saw a
homeless man about to get beat up by another man in an alley. Everyone else
ran away instead of calling the police. I'm no hero, but I just thought, if I
were in that position surely I would want someone to give a damn.

~~~
bowyakka
Although .... When I lived in London I stopped a guy from beating up his
girlfriend (he was, simply put beating her along the street). I had the
girlfriend start attacking me with her stiletto :(

I am also reminded of this
[http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/aug/04/ukcrime.features11](http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/aug/04/ukcrime.features11)

With all that said, whilst I might wade into a crazy situation; ignoring a
situation is not some that I think is specific to china or a specific culture,
but rather a failing of our innate social skills. There is a long list of
research into the bystander effect (e..g
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE5YwN4NW5o](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE5YwN4NW5o))
where if it is out of the comfort zone for people the simply choose not to
observe the event, why do you think that most emergency guides start with the
line "Call 911, don't assume that someone else will because they assume you
already have"

~~~
e40
_Although .... When I lived in London I stopped a guy from beating up his
girlfriend (he was, simply put beating her along the street). I had the
girlfriend start attacking me with her stiletto_

A friend in Amsterdam stopped a guy in the process of beating a woman on the
street. He had to disable the guy (with a strike) to get him to stop. The
woman promptly attacked my friend.

I think it's very common in domestic violence situations for the receiver to
defend the aggressor.

~~~
wintermuteblog
Yes I have heard this too. Basically, the receiver is with their partner, for
other reasons. And hence tend to downplay the significance of the violence.

~~~
bowyakka
I too had heard that, it makes me wonder how much goes unreported,
undiscovered and unresolved :(

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pxue
This isn't a cultural effect, this is a Human effect. What I don't understand
is why haven't anyone done a comparison of modern day China, arguably at the
same stage of development as the Industrial revolution (Circa 1800) era
Britain/France. Anyone read any stories from that time period could easily do
a one-to-one social phenomenon comparison. Young homeless/helpless girl frozen
to death/killed on the street on Christmas day/broad day light without anyone
batting an eye? Check. Middle class is generally a crappy place to be in
society? Check. Oliver Twist? Any stories by Victor Hugo? Charles Dickens?
Thomas Carlyle? Any Victorian era writing?

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fragsworth
I see lots of talk about cultural/societal problems, but this is at least in
part (if not mostly) due to a string of unfortunate lawsuits in China that
were reported to have punished good samaritans. It's quite possible that the
media organizations spun the stories to make them seem worse than they were,
but the effect on public perception is huge.

For instance: [http://en.ntd.tv/reference/chinablog/a-good-samaritan-
punish...](http://en.ntd.tv/reference/chinablog/a-good-samaritan-punished-in-
foshan/)

~~~
yetanotherphd
Good point. In fact, the better researched article [1] describes precisely
this:

According to state mouthpiece Xinhua, the woman’s brother-in-law said: "In
fact, we understand those onlookers. Who dares to help when encountering such
a thing. Everyone is afraid of getting into trouble."

I personally find it unfortunate that when it comes to Asians, even highly
educated people often fail to see how their viewpoint is influenced by
exasperated stereotypes. In addition, there is the colonialist mindset that it
only takes a few years to completely understand Asian culture, or that all
Westerners living in Asia are privy to great insights that Asians lack.

[1] [http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/328584-chinese-woman-
brain-d...](http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/328584-chinese-woman-brain-dead-
after-suffocating-on-bus-stop-guard-rails/)

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yeah_ok
This kind of thing makes me sick.

I think it's one thing for people to ignore and walk by, disengaging
themselves from the situation. It's another thing completely to actively
involve themselves by taking photos and videos.

This is humanity at its worst, or even a non existence of humanity. I would
not like to have an accident or fall ill in China.

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evan_
What a terrible way to die. I think a passerby could have rescued her by
slipping a car jack below her neck to spread the bars. If that didn't work
though it would take hydrolic cutters.

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pvdm
"Compassion is the basis for all morality" -Schopenhauer

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altero
But this is problem in western cities as well. There was study in London on
busy bus station in rush hour, where man was laying on street in agony asking
for help. Homeless guy got help in 15 minutes, man in suit in 30 seconds and
well dressed woman immediately. It is few years since I read this, so no link.

I also remember woman who swallowed chicken bone and was choking to death for
10 minutes on busy train station, she looked drunk.

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squozzer
I doubt the Chinese have a bigger bystander problem than the US. Exhibit A -
Good Samaritan laws that both require and legally protect attempts to aid.

