
Don't yell at waitresses. You look like a jerk and it blows investments. - g0atbutt
http://thestartupfoundry.com/2011/03/20/dont-yell-at-waitresses-you-look-like-a-jerk-and-it-blows-investments/
======
newobj
It also blows hiring. I was eating lunch with the CTO on my interview loop,
and he was pitching me hard on the company. He treated the waitress (who gave
us perfect service) so poorly that I instantly knew I would never want to work
for this guy. Thinking back to every profoundly bad manager I've ever had (not
bad in terms of 'ends' but bad in terms of 'means'), they all correlated with
crapping on anyone they encountered in the service sector.

~~~
Alex3917
Who are all these people who chronically mistreat the waitstaff? I've been to
restaurants with hundreds of different people and I've never seen anyone act
abusively towards the servers.

~~~
dspillett
I know people who work in retail, and suck people exist. There are not a
massive proportion of society buy even a bit of a percent is a lot of people
overall. You would might that people out for a nice relaxing meal, or shopping
in the middle of a holiday, would be pleasant to deal with: but you'd be
wrong. I know a number of people in retail and I can tell you (through
indirect experience) that the general public can be unrealistically demanding
and completely unpleasant if their demands are not met, repeatedly, yesterday.

By way of an anecdotal example: I know someone whose father thinks there is
nothing wrong with clicking his finders and yelling "BOY!" at a waiter to get
their attention. Except in Italian places - there it would be "Luigi" rather
"boy". I bet he consumes a lot of spit when he goes out for a meal...

For many reasons many people out there are dicks. I might well be one of them
if I'm honest with myself, though not one of the worst by a long shot. And if
you work in retail or catering you are likely to meet far more than your fair
share of them. Remember: most workers in a shops or restaurants deal closely
with far more members of the public in a day than most of us encounter closely
enough to notice in a year.

~~~
nfriedly
"I know people who work in retail, and suck people exist. "

I'm assuming you meant " _such_ people exist", but if so, that's probably the
most accurate typo ever :)

~~~
dspillett
I might look better were it not surrounded by other typos and even one place
where I appear to have typed completely the wrong word (or partly rearranged a
sentence and failed to finish making the new form make sense...).

------
jdludlow
You can tell a lot about a person by the way that he treats waiters,
waitresses, janitors, clerks, and other lower paying service jobs.

~~~
rudiger
I've heard a variant of this as _"The true measure of a man is how he treats
someone who can do him absolutely no good."_

~~~
corin_
While that's a good quote, it's not quite relevant for people such as waiters.
In my experience, being polite and tipping generously _regularly_ gets me a
speedier and more pleasant service. Sometimes it won't make a difference,
sometimes it will make even more of a difference, such as a free drink or two,
but more often than not it does have a positive impact on the service you
receive.

That's true not just with waiters, but in many service situations - for
example, in Oxford (a fairly small city with fairly low numbers of taxis
required) a lot of the drivers know me, and when I call for a ride it takes a
taxi, in my experience, roughly half the average time to arrive, simply
because the drivers on duty know that I will be a pleasant customer and a good
tipper.

Getting better service shouldn't be a neccesary reason to treat people well,
but it's certainly a nice bonus.

~~~
rudiger
In fact, that's why I was careful to call it a variant; my sentiments are the
same as yours. I'm actually happy that you've articulated the distinction.

------
corin_
The more important point isn't that you _look_ like a jerk, it's that you
_are_ a jerk.

~~~
techiferous
In that case, everyone is a jerk because if we're honest, we've all been rude
at least once in our lives. :)

In other words, I find it more helpful to call out specific behavior as
inappropriate than to write off the whole person as a "jerk".

~~~
corin_
I can honestly say I've never been rude to a waiter, taxi driver, shop
assistant... etc.

And I certainly wouldn't claim to abide to a higher than average moral
standard, I've been rude to my friends and to people I dislike. But not to my
colleagues, not to strangers and not to people working indirectly for me (i.e.
waiters etc.)

It is quite possible that in the future I might be rude to a waiter, but that
would be the exception, not the rule. So yes, it's possible that if you judge
someone of a single incident you might have caught the one in a thousand
occurrence, chances are against it, far more likely is that you're seeing
their normal behaviour.

~~~
techiferous
I'm not defending the behavior of being rude to the waitress nor saying that
the entrepreneur had bad judgment in leaving the deal.

My point is that it is not helpful to think of people as "jerks". I actually
think it can promote rude behavior to label people "jerks" because people may
justify to themselves that it's okay to be rude to a "jerk".

~~~
corin_
Theoretically I would agree with you, realistically I'm unable to think like
that. I'm naturally very quick to make snap judgements (perhaps more so that
other people or perhaps it's normal, I'm not sure), but I'm generally good at
keeping an open mind. So while I may instantly decide I dislike someone, it's
not hard for them to change my opinion if it turns out I was being too hasty.
On the other hand, if they continue to act in that way, it becomes a deeper
hole to dig themselves out of.

Very few people get that far. I think there's only one person whom I would
call a "cunt" genuinely rather than endearingly, and that's my former boss. He
was rude to colleagues, both below and above him, to friends, to waiters, to
his girlfriend, and even to clients. I hated the two years I spent working for
him, and there is nothing he could do now to change my opinion of him.
Thankfully I haven't spoken to him in almost a year, and most likely never
will again.

One person I used to be enemies with - for a few years we hated each other and
were horrible towards each other whenever our paths cross (in my head he was
at fault entirely, and I know he feels the same way) now works for me full
time. Because of his talent I overlooked our relationship and gave him the
break he needed, and in the 18 months since then we've had a great working
relationship. Now I wouldn't say a bad thing about him.

The above is a drawn out way of saying: it is possible, if perhaps not common,
to label people without it having negative consequences.

Actually, re-reading, your words were that if you label someone negatively,
you're more likely to treat them badly. That may be the case, but for me, I'm
no more likely to be rude to someone I label a jerk as someone I don't label a
jerk, but that I notice acting like a jerk. The label isn't something I decide
to add because of something, it's a connection my brain makes automatically -
unless there is evidence that someone is _not_ a jerk, there isn't a
difference between them _acting_ like a jerk and _being_ a jerk.

(Written from my phone in bed so won't re-read what I just wrote, hopefully it
makes at least a little sense.)

~~~
techiferous
Thanks, I think I get what you're saying. I love the story about the former
enemy relationship turning into a great working relationship. :)

------
keiferski
I just wanted to comment on the excellent picture choice. Didn't realize it
was a cup of coffee until I read through the article.

I then imagined myself as the entrepreneur, staring down into his coffee on
the table, pondering the deal. I don't think I would've had the same visual
response with a stock photo of a coffee cup. Not sure if that was your intent,
but good job either way.

~~~
g0atbutt
Thanks for your kind words. My background is in design and I have a lot of fun
working on those little graphics. All the best - Paul.

~~~
akgerber
When I was younger all the grownups would offer advice like "Don't choose an
immature name like Goat Butt to use online. No one will ever take you
seriously." Remember that?

I'm glad you're dedicating yourself to proving them wrong.

~~~
random42
I know this is superficial and I am no one to comment, but I still do not like
his nick selection (for professional purposes.)

~~~
rkudeshi
Counterpoint: I love it. It's memorable.

------
Stormbringer
Along a similar line is one of my favourites: "if you lend a friend $20 and
then never see him again, it was money well spent"

------
moondowner
There was a saying, something in this style: "A person that is nice to you but
not to the waitress, is not a good person."

------
fleitz
Don't yell at anyone.

Figure out the mistake and help them to correct it. If you're impressed by who
someone is and that sort of thing then don't do it because you never know
where they will be in 5 months, let alone 5 years.

If you're just a decent person don't do it because it's disrespectful and you
bring disrespect to yourself by treating others that way. It also shows you to
be out of control with your emotions.

One of the things that struck me most in the past few days was while waiting
in line to get into Hipmunk party @ SXSW to see Alexis outside handing out
bottles of water. Out of all the people I've met, ideas tossed around for
startups, everything @ SXSW, Alexis had the most impact on me in terms of his
dedication to helping people out.

------
rdl
$40k for 15% post means he was screwing you to begin with, unless it was money
which came with a technical cofounder attached, or someone with huge industry
connections in a non-tech vertical product company, or happened in 1975.

You should thank the investor for giving you another obvious sign to warn you
away.

~~~
mikeklaas
So… what do you think of ycombinator terms?

~~~
rdl
As just money, it would be horrible. As a whole package, it's basically the
standard for incubator, quite successful, and has a great oversubscription
ratio.

------
masterzora
The title of this bothers me. It suggests that you shouldn't yell at
waitresses because it blows investments but, really you should not yell at
waitresses and it also happens to blow investments. Don't put on a shoe for
people you are doing business; be the person you would pretend to be.

------
PixelRobot
Don't tell everybody. It's a great way to identify people I want to avoid, and
you ruin it by telling everybody.

~~~
didip
Don't worry too much about it. Most of the "everybody" don't hang out on
Hacker News.

~~~
PixelRobot
It's more of a "don't go telling people" thing than a "now that it's on Hacker
News everybody will know" thing.

------
huhtenberg
Also known as the "Swanson's (CEO) waiter test" -

 _A person who is nice to you but rude to the waiter, or to others, is not a
nice person._

[http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2006-04-1...](http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2006-04-14-ceos-
waiter-rule_x.htm)

------
dotBen
You can also do this with driving. A maxim I once heard was during a
deal/hiring/etc process suggest going out for lunch and having the other
person drive you both there.

You can learn a lot about a person by the way they drive and they way they eat
lunch (esp interacting with service people).

~~~
techiferous
You should be careful with judging people by how they drive. Cities have
different levels of traffic congestion, traffic engineering and expectations.
So the driving may say more about the city the driver is from than their
personality.

------
codeslush
This story is often repeated in all types of business - it is a really useful
tool when recruiting any kind of talent, or, for that matter, any kind of
relationship.

It's an absolutely remarkable character test! Useful when dating someone,
interviewing someone or any number of other scenarios. It baffles me that
people treat others in such a rude and public way - and moreover, it's
stunning how frequently it occurs.

------
jschuur
I just hope they reminded the VC exactly why they were leaving, so he had a
chance to think about his attitude.

~~~
g0atbutt
He said something along the lines of "I'm very sorry for my friends rude
behavior. Nobody should should act like that". I think the angel investor got
the point.

~~~
bjelkeman-again
@jschuur Don't you think the investor will take the easy way out and not shout
at people when discussing investments, but not actually change as a person?

I think these type of behaviors are deeply set. They can be changed, but I
think it is more likely that the investor learns to be more subtle when
discussing with an investment target, rather than actually becoming a nicer
person, which requires a real change of character.

~~~
jschuur
I agree that this points to deeply rooted a deeply rooted mindset and
behavioral issues. At the same time though, this is an opportunity to do the
right thing and attempt to show the guy that this is a fundamental and not
compartmentalized problem he has (not that I'm criticizing the entrepreneur
here).

Maybe, over time, this will resonate with him, when he sees other people's
reactions when this happens again. If not, you've done all you could.

~~~
Dylanlacey
Exactly. Doing nothing because "It won't help" is tacit acceptance. Only by
slowly wearing away at the behavior can you change it, but you still need to
try.

------
kovar
I do not believe that anyone is saying that you should judge an individual
based on one mistake, or one interaction with a waitress. However, the advice
is to look at this incident in context, seek out trends (or the lack of
trends), and add this to your perception of the individual.

------
icco
I generally live by the words "people suck." Then when you see such disgusting
behavior as this, it is not surprising.

Even better though, is when you meet truly kind people, it is a surprise and
pleasure to work with them.

~~~
rewind
I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, and treat the assholes as
outliers. It's too easy to assume the worst, but that's what a lot of people
do these days. It's kind of sad.

~~~
icco
I'll agree that saying "better safe than sorry" is probably the wrong way to
view life, but taking what other people say with a grain of salt lets you
question what people say more and come to your own decisions about life.

Also, "people suck" includes yourself, so you can think about it as a way to
think about what you are saying and doing and see if it is up to a level of
quality that you are comfortable with.

------
hammock
> "We will take over the world together and I will make both of us very rich"

That doesn't sound like a smooth talker, it sounds like a tacky sleazeball.
Great story, though.

------
dkl
How you treat a waitress or janitor says a lot about your personality. IMO,
it's an asshole litmus test.

------
TryThinking
Perhaps this advice transcends "investments" and "entrepreneurs" and even
"waitresses."

