
Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says - AndrewBissell
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article236809668.html
======
claudeganon
Epstein’s death seems the most overt taunt about ruling class impunity in my
lifetime. Not only in its circumstances, but in the kind of shifting,
threadbare cover stories about everyone with whom he was associated. Bill
Gates, for example, had staff overlap between his foundation and Epstein,
(including one who was named in Epstein’s will!) and was able to diminish
these connections in major media outlets with almost no pushback.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/business/jeffrey-
epstein-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/business/jeffrey-epstein-bill-
gates.html)

~~~
code_duck
Epstein's ability to carry in his activities with near impunity during his
life seems even more shocking to me. Pretty much everyone knew what this guy
was doing for decades.

~~~
paulmd
There is some notion that he may have been operating a honeypot (kompromat
factory) for Western intelligence services (particularly CIA or Mossad). That
would explain why he was collecting blackmail material and all.

I suppose the null hypothesis is that rich and well-connected people can get
away with even open crimes in public for years and years. Weinstein got away
with rape for years and years, against well-connected people as well. Epstein
was a financier just like Weinstein. They have what you need, and they have
the ear of a lot of other well-connected people who need things from him.

~~~
krn
> There is some notion that he may have been operating a honeypot (kompromat
> factory) for Western intelligence services (particularly CIA or Mossad).

Mossad seems to be the most likely player here[1][2]:

> Given the chance to refute Ward’s report, specifically that the Epstein case
> involved intelligence matters, Acosta did nothing of the sort. Indeed, he
> functionally admitted that it’s true.

> What then can we conclude at this point? It appears that Jeffrey Epstein was
> involved in intelligence work, of some kind, for someone—and it probably
> wasn’t American intelligence either. The U.S. Intelligence Community is
> lenient about the private habits of high-value agents or informants, but
> they won’t countenance running sex trafficking rings for minors on American
> soil, for years. While it’s plausible that Epstein was sharing some
> information with the FBI—many criminals do so to buy themselves some
> insurance—it’s implausible that he was mainly working for the Americans.

> Who are the suspects then? It seems awfully coincidental that Epstein’s best
> pal and business partner for decades has been Ghislaine Maxwell, the British
> socialite and daughter of the late Robert Maxwell, the media mogul who died
> under mysterious circumstances in 1991.

> Six serving and former heads of Israeli intelligence services attended
> Maxwell's funeral in Israel, while Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir
> eulogized him and stated: “He has done more for Israel than can today be
> said."

[1] [https://observer.com/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-spy-
intelligenc...](https://observer.com/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-spy-intelligence-
work/)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maxwell#Israeli_connect...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maxwell#Israeli_connection)

------
mikece
I tend to be very skeptical of claims of conspiracy and conspiracy theories in
general but I've yet to hear a reasonable theory to explain how Epstein could
have killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical
impossibility. A friend in law enforcement related a story about someone on
suicide watch who managed to kill himself by eating/shoving massive amount of
toilet paper down his throat and then drinking water (which caused the tissue
to expand and suffocate him). After that, toilet paper was issued _as needed_
rather than having rolls available in the cells. They go to INSANE degrees to
make self-slaughter impossible in these units.

~~~
542458
> killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical
> impossibility

Ken White (famous-ish lawyer and notable internet personality) puts it this
way: "But your assessment of plausibility is based on your assumptions about
how the system works. Those assumptions are, mostly, wrong — naive Dick-Wolf-
level law-enforcement-are-competent-good-guys stuff".

Prisons, particularly american prisons, are full of incompetence and casual
disregard to human life and dignity. The prison where Epstein died was
understaffed, and the guards tasked with watching him had next-to-no training.
Epstein had also been taken off suicide watch nine days earlier.

Ken White put together 32 other cases where people died, or almost died in
jail because the administration was too incompetent or too indifferent to do
anything: [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/thirty-
two...](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/thirty-two-stories-
jeffrey-epstein-prison-death/596029/)

~~~
jdoliner
The jail that Epstein died in has had one other suicide in the past 40 years.
They haven't actually lost someone to suicide 21 years, despite several
attempts. They're not incompetent at all at preventing their inmates from
committing suicide. So no, the statement that suicide is made practically
impossible there isn't based on wrong assumptions, it's very well supported by
statistics.

Source: [https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-
suicides](https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides)

~~~
topkai22
"1 suicide and 3 attempted suicides"\- that's actually both an insanely low
attempt rate and an insanely high completion rate/attempt.

~~~
romwell
That means that most people didn't even figure out how to _attempt_ one,
because the means were taken away.

You should compare with suicides/suicide attempt rates in general population
(or general prison population) to make this statement.

~~~
topkai22
[https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/19/health/prison-suicides-
massac...](https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/19/health/prison-suicides-
massachusetts-trnd/index.html)

General prison suicide rate is 20/100,000, which is almost identical to the
male general population rate in the US (21.1)
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate))

I didn't quickly get data on attempt/completion in prison, but the
attempt/completion rate is the general pop is ~30 attempts/completion, and the
completion rate is dramatically driven up with access to firearms.
([https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/](https://afsp.org/about-
suicide/suicide-statistics/)) I'd expect to see a lower completion/attempt
rate in prison, not a higher one, given the monitoring and reduced access to
methods.

I stand by my statement- something is funny with the way they reported that
data.

~~~
jnaddef
Again you are comparing apples with oranges. Outside of prison, nothing
prevents you from attempting suicide. Whether you succeed or not depends
mostly on your resolve and how you do it.

In a perfect prison, suicide attempt should be 0%, not because people are
happy, but because inmates should have no way to even attempt a suicide.

If at some point a mistake is made and an inmate manages to kill himself, it
will be a 1 attempt/completion and going to the conclusion that prisons make
it easy to kill yourself does not seem right.

~~~
jacobush
No that is not a perfect prison. A perfect prison should probably be more like
the general population. Unless you think the perfect prison is chained to the
wall at all times. And that prison is no place for rehabilitation.

~~~
jnaddef
Sure, I thought it was obvious I meant : "in a perfect high-security cell
where the goal is to keep the prisoner from killing himself before testifying"

------
moltensodium
Yeah, outside of Lee Harvey Oswald this guy was the most important prisoner in
the history of the USA. The fact that he just "suicided" in prison and we're
all supposed to move on and share links about suicide awareness is utter
nonsense.

If the corporate media doesn't get to the bottom of this then someone else
will, it's just a matter of time. Everyone is so tired of being lied to by
authority figures.

~~~
cc81
What if it just was a suicide?

If he had dirt on people would he not arrange so it would be sent out in case
of his death? Especially if there was a failed murder attempt just weeks
before?

And what stops the victims of naming names now? And what would have stopped
Epstein of just not talking and just denying?

~~~
mistermann
> If he had dirt on people would he not arrange so it would be sent out in
> case of his death?

Considering the circumstances, if you received information from Epstein, what
would you do with it? Even if you were brave enough to risk your life in the
service of justice, what authority would you even send it to?

~~~
larrywright
Honestly, Glenn Greenwald would probably be where I’d turn to. I’d trust him
as a journalist, for sure. There aren’t a ton of them who’ve publicly
demonstrated how they handle something of this importance (Woodward and
Bernstein are the only other two I can come up with off the top of my head).

~~~
harry8
Assange - for which I will get hate. He will publish, in full at considerable
personal cost. I don't think there are any credible accusations about him
doing anything else, ever. You can still hate him for whatever reasons you
have and expect him to do just that.

Have you seen Greenwalds thoughts on Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein.

I'm not sure they should still be on that list... Maybe, but there's some
doubt. More about them than say Assange, for this purpose which is pretty
weird and unexpected to think about.

[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/28/bob-
wo...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/28/bob-woodward-
obama-military-sequester)

[https://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2013/11/bob-woodward-
sl...](https://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2013/11/bob-woodward-slams-
greenwald-gellman-178103)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvrSeiG5mJQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvrSeiG5mJQ)

~~~
harry8
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/10/mannin...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/10/manning-
prosecution-press-freedom-woodward)

Wherin Greenwald describes Woodward as follows:

"Bob Woodward is a servant-journalist for US government officials."

That's not pulling punches. Is it fair?

~~~
spiralx
I mean I could make the claim

"Glenn Greenwald is a servant-journalist for Russian government officials."

with at least as much evidence:

[https://arcdigital.media/why-are-internet-radicals-
helping-p...](https://arcdigital.media/why-are-internet-radicals-helping-
putins-russia-6ff2978b172e)

[https://www.towleroad.com/2019/05/glenn-greenwald-
russia/](https://www.towleroad.com/2019/05/glenn-greenwald-russia/)

[https://theintercept.com/2019/04/18/robert-mueller-did-
not-m...](https://theintercept.com/2019/04/18/robert-mueller-did-not-merely-
reject-the-trumprussia-conspiracy-theories-he-obliterated-them/)

Is it fair? I mean calling a journalist an agent of the deep state for
publishing leaks given to them is quite a leap... especially given that
Greenwald is famous in large part for the same.

~~~
harry8
I don't think there's any evidence of Greenwald publishing leaks provided by
russian officials. Unless you go with the "Snowden is a russian asset" line
which I find lacks credibility. Especially given how often it's been used.
Lately Hilary is accusing Deomcrat candidates of it, which is, well, exactly
in keeping with her character. An observation that is less controversial now
than it used to be.

[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/22/hillar...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/22/hillary-
clinton-tulsi-gabbard-embarrassing-paranoid)

Never heard of towerload before, but wow, that article is comically terrible.
Don't believe me? Here's a tweet from nobody making the same claim without
evidence.

The arc digitial article (deliberately?) conflates all those idiots running
around yelling "The President is a Russian spy!" and saying that is idiotic
with not wanting Mueller's report at all as if those idiots were necessary for
Mueller to perform his investigation and write a report.

So yeah, making the claim against Greewald. I'm going with "Not Fair" if
that's the best evidence there is.

I've seen no credible evidence that Assange worked with russia fwiw (but the
NYT article making the accusation had the silliest diagram I've ever seen in
lieu of evidence - so silly it looked deliberately so - as a covert protest
perhaps..? ymmv incompetence is the usual go to). If I saw some evidence I
might well change my mind on that but I'm just not willing to see russians
pulling strings without evidence. I believed WMD claims and I hope I learned
/something/ from that error.

Quoting the actual content of Mueller's report. Yeah, I'm ok with that when
reporting on it myself. Pointing out that Trump can be a horrible person and
awful president without being a russian spy and that constant accusations of
it are silly, counterproductive, a massive distraction from the duty of the
fourth estate and just need to stop now so we can analyse reality is from the
competent journalist playbook rather than a russian conspiracy IMHO.

The claim against Woodward has more legs because he gets top secret leaks and
there's no investigation, there's no prosecution, there's no outrage and the
stories he writes based on the leaks are anything but embarassing to the
government. So I guess all that is at least consistent with what Greenwald is
saying. I mean an article that embarasses the government based on leaks with
woodward as author - that _would_ be inconsistent and you'd have to address
that to keep making the case at least. (well it's 1 this way and 5 the other
or something - but I haven't seen the 1).

If I wanted to make a criticism of Glenn in the original context it is that he
will use whatever you give him for maximum political impact in support of his
political views (but will do so with integrity, eg Snowden is a republican and
went to Glenn because of his integrity, also Barton Gelmann and deliberately
avoided the NYT for burying stories which should have sent alarm bells ringing
loud there, I wonder if it did). Is that political impact according to Glenn
what you want? But I guess if what you want released embarasses the
government, Woodward hasn't got much form since Watergate..?

------
542458
This is not the head pathologist who performed the autopsy or anything. This
is an pathologist hired by Epstein's family who is notable for saying dramatic
things in an apparent attempt to get news time:

[https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-
shooting/who...](https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/who-
dr-michael-baden-coroner-examined-michael-brown-n183516)

Furthermore, there's nothing new here - all of this was known months ago. The
damage in question - Baden's smoking gun - is not uncommon in suicides either.

(Edit: this comment formerly claimed that Baden wasn't at the autopsy. This
appears to be incorrect - he was there, but not on the medical team.)

~~~
RcouF1uZ4gsC
From the article:

> Dr. Michael Baden, one of the world’s leading forensic pathologists, viewed
> Jeffrey Epstein’s body and was present at the autopsy, which was held the
> day after Epstein was found dead at the notorious Metropolitan Correctional
> Center in downtown Manhattan.

It looks like he was at least present at the autopsy

~~~
542458
You're right, I was incorrect there - I was confused because he wasn't on the
medical team for the autopsy. Looks like he was there as an observer, being
paid by Epstein's family - which also introduces a fairly significant conflict
of interest.

~~~
mc32
Why is it a massive conflict of interest from the family side but not from the
state side (their pathologists)?

Presumably they both care about careers and reputation.

~~~
542458
The state pathologists keep getting paid no matter what their conclusions
were.

Epsiein's family pathologist only gets paid as long as he's involved in the
investigation. If he said "Yep, looks like a suicide", the family would have
no further use for him. But if he discovers some conspiracy that will take an
indefinite amount of time to deal with, he keeps collecting paychecks. Also,
this fellow seems to thrive on fame, so even more incentive to find something
juicy.

~~~
danharaj
> The state pathologists keep getting paid no matter what their conclusions
> were.

Naive.

------
air7
I'm don't buy into conspiracy theories and am a firm advocate for Hanlon's
razor but this story is really hard to swallow. This is the passage from the
relevant Wikipedia article:

> The jail informed the Justice Department, when Epstein was placed in the
> special housing unit, that he would have a cellmate and that a guard would
> look into the cell every 30 minutes. These procedures were not followed on
> the night he died.[4] On August 9, Epstein's cellmate was transferred out,
> and no new replacement cellmate was brought in. Later in the evening, in
> violation of the jail's normal procedure, Epstein was not checked every 30
> minutes.[4] The two guards who were assigned to check his cell overnight
> fell asleep for about three hours.[21] Two cameras in front of Epstein's
> cell also malfunctioned that night.[5]

Also assuming it's true one might expect, given the gravitas of this case,
that the multiple people responsible for such gross negligence would be
prosecuted and brought to light and justice.

~~~
ScottFree
> I'm don't buy into conspiracy theories

I do. How many "conspiracy theories" have we lived through in tech? I can name
two right off the top of my head: prism and carnivore.

Whenever there's an overwhelming chorus of "that's conspiracy theory!" what I
hear is "don't look too closely! You might find something!"

~~~
paulcole
> what I hear is "don't look too closely! You might find something!"

Ah, you mean like the link between vaccinations and autism?

Or are you just taking about the conspiracy theories you want to believe in?

~~~
ScottFree
That's a weak argument. One conspiracy theory was proven false so they must
all be false? Does that apply to scientific studies, too?

~~~
paulcole
Pardon the bluntness, but your argument is equally weak.

> Whenever I hear an overwhelming chorus of "that's conspiracy theory!" what I
> hear is "don't look too closely! You might find something!"

------
rdtsc
I don't know if he killed himself or not, but it sure looks suspicious. The
expectation is that there would be a flurry of investigative journalism
lasting perhaps months, by different media organizations trying to uncover how
he got his money, who flew to his island, or other properties, how many
victims he had, interview with his house keepers, lawyers, Ghislaine Maxwell
etc.

But except for very few news items, there was surprisingly little uptake.
You'd think after Weinstein, and #meetoo movement, there would so much
interest in finding who is exploiting and abusing girls and young women,
especially by someone as connected as Epstein and his "guests".

One article was odd:
[https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/fdny-
rev...](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/fdny-review-
jeffrey-epstein-4chan-post) Odd because it was concerned not with the victims
or his connections but that some paramedic or bystander took a picture of
Epstein's body as it was wheeled out and posted it on 4chan. And how it was an
egregious violation of HIPPA and FDNY should look into investigating that. Not
a word whether they should look into investigating why the CCTV cameras didn't
work showing exactly how he hanged himself with toilet paper...

~~~
FireBeyond
> but that some paramedic or bystander took a picture of Epstein's body as it
> was wheeled out and posted it on 4chan. And how it was an egregious
> violation of HIPPA and FDNY should look into investigating that

Apropos of all the other things going on in this case - which lets be honest,
were getting plenty of news play - why is this article odd?

Because, as a paramedic - fuck whomever did that. I don't care who it is, that
is one of the most unprofessional and unethical things we can do. I teach new
EMTs and paramedics and we talk about the huge amount of trust and access into
the most intimate, worst moments of people's lives, and that's because we have
built up this culture of being able to be entrusted to do this.

Whether you're giving care to someone bitten by a canine unit after they were
found in the woods after an alleged rape, or to a drunk driver who t-boned
your ambulance when you had a patient inside, and so on and so forth, if you
can't disconnect your personal passion or despising of someone from your
ability to provide medical care, you need to not be in this profession. And
furthermore, if you see it not just as an opportunity to be unprofessional but
to make a buck / publicity out of an abuse of trust, then even more, get out.

All firefighters and paramedics are certainly not perfect, but there is also a
huge stock in trying to maintain the reputation we have - it's what allows
people to tell me what drugs they've taken, etc., or whether there's a chance
of pregnancy, when otherwise they might not.

~~~
rdtsc
> Apropos of all the other things going on in this case - which lets be
> honest, were getting plenty of news play - why is this article odd?

Because when it came to this story, most people, who are not paramedics would
expect a lot more investigative information around Epstein's story besides the
fact that his dead picture leaked to some dark web site full disgusting
images.

Let's say they followed up the article with another 5 or 10 analyzing the
flight logs, unsealed court documents, tried to interview his associates,
looked at all his properties, see maybe other inmates heard anything that
night. But it didn't happen, it was mostly dropped and instead they called
FDNY to ensure there is investigation into the leaked pictures.

------
FillardMillmore
The most frustrating part is how blatant and in-your-face the excuses have
been and how many media outlets just seem to accept what they're told and run
with it without question.

Just look at the responses we've been given to various questions (paraphrased,
of course):

Q: "How could he have committed suicide, wasn't he on suicide watch?"

A: "Oh, well he was taken off suicide watch shortly before he committed
suicide"

Q: "Didn't he have a cellmate though? Why didn't his cellmate do anything?"

A: "Oh, his cellmate was moved to a different location shortly before he
committed suicide"

Q: "Well what about the guards, weren't they supposed to be checking up on him
every 30 minutes?"

A: "Yeah, turns out they both fell asleep - sorry, we know how important a
criminal Esptein was, but our guards were simply overworked"

Q: "What about the cameras? Wasn't there a camera inside his cell?"

A: "Yes, but unfortunately it malfunctioned"

Q: "Well what about the camera surveying the outside of his cell?"

A: "Oh...well...we've reviewed the footage on that one and unfortunately it's,
erm, unusable"

Q: "Wasn't the room supposed to be 'suicide-proof'?"

A: "Uhh...it was but we overlooked the surprising tensile strength properties
of the paper-thin bedsheets...our bad".

Q: "Well how about some photos of the body? Can we see them?"

A: "Sorry, he's been cremated and buried at his brother's request and we can't
release any photos at this time"

And of course, nothing (that we know of) has happened to all the many people
associated and possibly complicit with Epstein. The paparazzi is following
Ghislaine Maxwell around burger joints while Bill Barr's justice department
files lawsuits to prevent Edward Snowden from making a profit from his book
sales.

It is legitimately more difficult to accept all of these circumstances than it
is to believe it was covered-up, bought-and-paid-for hitjob. I truly do think
Occam's Razor would dictate it is more likely that this is the case. Though,
it is important to note, we do not yet have the evidence to say this is the
case definitively.

~~~
SimbaOnSteroids
Plus the motivations of those implicated, if you're Prince Andrew, a Saudi
Royal, or a Soviet Bloc oligarch you're just going to sit there and accept
consequences?

~~~
FillardMillmore
All the players involved kind of add a cover for any nefarious actors. There's
so many people involved and so many people that would have motivation to order
a hitjob that trying to determine who would be behind such a thing would be at
best a wild guessing-game.

------
commandlinefan
When Edward Snowden “revealed” that the NSA had been spying on us for decades,
I was shocked that anybody was shocked. After all, we’ve known that for a long
time - people had been SAYING that for a long time. I realized after the
Snowden leaks that most people actually thought they were joking when they
said that the NSA was spying on all of us: “har har, as if that could ever
happen”. It’s become increasingly clear that I’m not just being paranoid when
I believe that they _are_ spying on us, and disposing of the ones who become a
problem.

~~~
EasyTiger_
People who thought this were widely scorned as “conspiracy theorists”.

~~~
LinuxBender
I pay close attention to the "nutters" and "conspiracy theorists". A great way
to hide something big in plain sight is to let someone that is unstable see
1/8th of your secret. They will conflate other things into it and sound
totally loony, thus invalidating any discussion about your evil plans by
anyone, as they will be associated with the unstable person.

I am not going to name names, as that would be inappropriate, but there are
some popular public figures that make video and news streams, that have
sounded totally loony for decades and yet, turned out to be mostly right or in
some cases, spot on. They just conveyed the message poorly.

~~~
parrellel
Which would be why the CIA under Johnson came up with the idea. Keep all the
undesirable thought together and let it eat itself getting stranger and less
palatable all the way.

------
hurrdurr2
It sure was convenient for a lot of high profile people that this guy is dead.

The cameras happened to malfunction on that day... guy got taken off suicide
watch. Also his cell mate was an ex-cop who looks like he could snap people in
half without trying. I mean come on.

~~~
saalweachter
_Former_ cellmate; Epstein had no cellmate at the time of his death.

~~~
tyingq
What happened when they were cell mates is pretty curious.

[https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/16/epsteins-ex-cellmate-
cleared...](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/16/epsteins-ex-cellmate-cleared-
after-probe-into-earlier-suicide-attempt-lawyer.html)

~~~
cwkoss
Certainly seems like the previous suicide attempt was really a failed hit.

~~~
tyingq
I'd follow what the ex-cop's eventual sentence is. If he completely skates,
surely something is up.

------
bsamuels
I'm fascinated by the idea that someone could have killed and successfully
covered up a murder this high profile.

How do you handle the guards? How do you keep the other inmates quiet? Can you
get away with bribing a single guard or is a larger operation needed? If you
bribe people, how do you get the money to them? How do you keep them quiet
when the inevitable investigation happens?

I don't think it's impossible, but if this was a murder then it's fascinating
that someone could be this good at assassination.

~~~
jowday
It's likely Epstein was tied up with CIA. Once they enter the picture,
everything's fair game.

[https://observer.com/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-spy-
intelligenc...](https://observer.com/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-spy-intelligence-
work/)

~~~
throwaway829
Robert Maxwell has been accused of being a Mossad agent. Ghislaine Maxwell was
the daughter of Robert Maxwell. Upon his death, six serving and former heads
of Israeli intelligence services attended his funeral in Israel, while Israeli
Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir eulogized him and stated: “He has done more for
Israel than can today be said."
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maxwell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maxwell)

~~~
malvosenior
Wexner (who gave Epstein his initial fortune) is also suspected to be Mossad:

[https://www.mintpressnews.com/mega-group-maxwells-mossad-
spy...](https://www.mintpressnews.com/mega-group-maxwells-mossad-spy-story-
jeffrey-epstein-scandal/261172/)

------
ejstronge
It doesn't seem that this new claim discusses anything not explicitly
mentioned at the time of the suicide decision. See the NYT article on this new
report for a fuller discussion, as well as quotes from many pathologists:

[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/30/nyregion/jeffrey-
epstein-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/30/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-
homicide-autopsy-michael-baden.html)

~~~
AndrewBissell
The fact that Baden, one of the only two MEs assigned to examine the body,
believes it was a homicide is certainly news. So is the fact that the NYC ME
listed cause of death as "pending" initially and then it was later amended to
"suicide" for reasons unknown.

~~~
camel_Snake
Baden was present for the examination - he didn't perform the examination
himself. It's a small detail but I wouldn't put Baden's opinion and the
official examiner's at the same level.

------
dmix
This reminds me of that Netflix series about JonBenét Ramsey where they had
all of these experts _prove_ it was the brother who did it.

It was all very weak stuff, but the people they used were all credible crime
investigation people so it sounded legitimate.

The poor brother was grown up now and a software engineer who already went
through enough trauma and had to sue the show for defamation.

~~~
krn
> The poor brother was grown up now and a software engineer who already went
> through enough trauma and had to sue the show for defamation.

I have watched that documentary and as someone who has a lot of experience
with autism spectrum disorder and complete inability to control one's actions
at not such a young age, I have little doubt that he could have done that
_unintentionally_.

Even as an adult, he still doesn't look as someone who is fully able to
comprehend his actions.

In such a case, it would be easy to understand the parents' desire to protect
at least the child who was still alive.

And not suing after the documentary was released was not an option, if they
wanted to stick to their story.

~~~
dmix
He unintentionally garrotted his sister in the middle of the night? Then left
a basement window open?

They found touch DNA on her pants that matched a Latin male among lots of
other stuff that just makes the whole brother story sound ridiculous.

Autism is also not sociopathy.

~~~
krn
> He unintentionally garrotted his sister in the middle of the night?

Yes, for a kid with autism it would have felt like "playing" without realizing
the consequences of the "game" he was in.

Such a person can be mentally unable to think two steps upfront, or even to
have real feelings about his actions.

> Then left a basement window open?

Everything what happened later could have been done by the parents in an
effort to protect their son.

I personally wouldn't have released this documentary and believe that the
family should be left alone, but have little doubt in its findings.

------
BLKNSLVR
This may be the kind of thought bubble that's not welcome on HN, but the
Epstein situation of high-powered contacts, the decade-old non-prosecution
agreement (for child-sex crimes!) and the various inconsistencies surrounding
Epstein's death as described in the article, form a seriously twisted
situation when combined with the political rhetoric around end-to-end
encryption and societal surveillance in general.

Politicians chanting, essentially, "Think of the children", is phenomenally
hypocritical when layered on top of the Epstein situation.

The US and Five Eyes world-spanning communications surveillance operations
couldn't even get this guy jailed for child-sex crimes?! How much is it
costing for this wholly-ineffectual-at-what-its-claimed-purpose-is
infrastructure?

------
jolesf
This is a rabbit hole that I'm not endorsing just sharing the link
[https://twitter.com/LibertyBlitz/status/1148259553621864449](https://twitter.com/LibertyBlitz/status/1148259553621864449)

~~~
matt4077
You can't just advertise whatever loony accusations your link goes to (I
didn't click) and absolve yourself of responsibility. That's the old "I'm just
asking questions..." shtick.

~~~
cwkoss
What in that thread do you object to?

Seems like it's all either factual or clearly labeled uncertainty ("seems",
etc.)

------
yowlingcat
To not make a snippy comment about the media treatment about it because that
would be tiring, I'd like to instead draw an imperfect parallel to
narcopolitics in Latin America. Kingpins from El Chapo to Escobar were
notorious for getting away with just about anything, the former for his tunnel
and the latter for actually dropping bombs. For a lot of folks on the other
side of the border, perhaps they thought it was something that could never
happen here.

But, I think what I see there, what I see here just tend to reinforce
something that I believe is vindicated by the rest of history -- politics can
be very dirty, and to prematurely label something a conspiracy theory can get
in the way of seeing the reality of what happens on the ground. There's a
difference between labeling something a conspiracy theory because it feels
unthinkable and labeling something a conspiracy theory because it's a stretch
to imagine it logistically possible. I have a hope that somehow we can get to
a reality where that's not the case, but it's hard to reconcile that with
seeing these things happen again and again.

How strong is a democracy? What is the price of freedom and liberty, and how
resistant are any of the world's well-resourced democracies to this sort of
high-level corruption? Were they ever resistant to it? Were democracy and
technopolitics always merely a smokescreen over invisible perpetuations of the
perennial brutal principle of "might makes right" and any egalitarian,
humanist drive somewhat doomed to never fully (or even partially) succeed?

~~~
x220
I'd like to remind people that "conspiracy theory" was a propaganda term
coined and spread by the CIA in order to discredit people skeptical of the
United States.

~~~
blotter_paper
Coined, no; the term dates back to at least 1870 in a non-political
context,[0] and I believe there's a documented use in a political context by
1890. Spread, yes, especially in via the document "Countering Criticisms of
the Warren Report"[1] which used the term "conspiracy theory" and "conspiracy
theorist" whilst instructing agents "To employ propaganda assets to [negate]
and refute the attacks of the critics" (though that document did not directly
instruct agents to use the term).

[0]:
[https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VsRMAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22consp...](https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VsRMAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22conspiracy%20theory%22&pg=PA141#v=onepage&q=%22conspiracy%20theory%22&f=true)

[1]: [http://www.jfklancer.com/CIA.html](http://www.jfklancer.com/CIA.html)

------
remarkEon
If Epstein was about to testify against the Mob and not about expose wealthy
elites and politicians I doubt any of you in this thread would discount, at
all, that he was “whacked”.

There’s something really gross about how his proximity to power that we,
ostensibly, “like” is decreasing our collective likelihood to state the
obvious.

~~~
cwkoss
Any evidence it was the Mob he was going to testify against? I have seen a lot
more speculation that he would reveal his cooperation with state intelligence
agencies.

~~~
SimbaOnSteroids
They are saying that if he were about to testify against John Gotti no one in
this thread would doubt that it was a hit.

------
duaoebg
When this first happened it seemed that the media was pushing the idea that be
was killed as a crank conspiracy theory.

They failed and now a majority believe he was. Including me.

------
blackswan101
A worthwhile read: [https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/08/16/la-danse-mossad-
robe...](https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/08/16/la-danse-mossad-robert-
maxwell-and-jeffrey-epstein/)

------
pkilgore
I hate to be boring, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence,
which so far has not been presented.

My brother in law is an attorney who literally makes a career out of the
deaths and injuries that result from the incredible incompetence and neglect
we inflict upon the imprisoned in this country. And as he puts it "Business is
Good."

~~~
JackFr
We know that people are murdered in prison (though probably not as often as
the media depicts.)

We know that blackmail exists.

While they might be uncommon, neither of those are extraordinary.

It is also undisputed that:

\- a serial and unabashed pedophile had multiple contacts with two presidents,
a member of the British royal family and a few titans of industry.

\- when prosecuted for his sex crimes said pedophile came away with a
sweetheart deal that apart from violating federal regulations, was
_incomprehensible_ in it's leniency.

Now just because those two things are quite extraordinary it doesn't mean they
are proof of anything. At the same time though, they are a justification for
being a little more circumspect about dismissing conspiracies as crank
theories.

~~~
pkilgore
Both blackmail and homicide are uncommon in prison.

Suicide in prison is very, very common.

The wealthy and powerful being above the law and getting sweetheart deals by
prosecutors who are more obsessed with not losing and not working hard for
easy pleas against people who cannot afford to defend themselves Federally is
very, very common.

Note I am not closed to the possibility he was killed, I'm simply noting the
contents of this article are miles away from the kind of evidence sufficient
to raise a doubt he killed himself.

Obviously I'm interested...why else am I commenting after reading the article?
The problem is that nothing interesting happened.

------
feelthepress
94% of cases of suicidal hangings do NOT break the hyoid. Must look at
proximate causes, including foul play.

~~~
mcguire
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20973326](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20973326):

" _Fractures of the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage in 25% of Thais who died
of suicidal hanging were related with older ages and incomplete hanging but
not related with location of the knot._ "

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30015282](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30015282):

" _Altogether, we identified the following types of laryngohyoid fractures in
129 of 178 cases (72.5%): isolated fracture(s) to the thyroid cartilage in 60
cases (33.7%), combined thyrohyoid fractures in 41 cases (23.0%), isolated
fracture(s) to the hyoid bone in 28 cases (15.7%), and no fractures to the
cricoid cartilage or the cervical vertebrae._ "

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13531...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S135311310090419X):

" _There were a total of 40 cases of suicidal hanging with an age range of
17–74 years (average = 35 years; M:F = 33:7). Fractures of neck structures
were identified in 19 cases (47.5%) and were more common in older victims and
males. Nine victims had only thyroid cartilage fractures (22.5%), four victims
had only fractures of the hyoid bone (10%), and six victims had fractures of
both the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage (15%)._ "

------
ltbarcly3
Oh of course it was murder, it was clear he would be killed once they put him
in jail (I won a bet saying he would die mysteriously within 2 months of his
house arrest motion being denied). Then after he died I won another bet
predicting that 'the cameras will have been not working', and sure enough when
they looked at the video from the cameras it was corrupted or something.
Obvious murder is obvious.

------
olivermarks
Whitney Webb has written exhaustively on Epstein at mintpressnews. Julie K
Brown and others at the Miami Herald have been on the Epstein case for a
decade and for a corporate media firm done a good job with investigative
journalism. [https://youtu.be/uQbndmXIkKQ](https://youtu.be/uQbndmXIkKQ)

------
lurquer
Was it suicide or was it murder?

Epstein, alive and well, doesn’t really care which side of the false debate
you take.

Of course there is a deadman’s switch... It wasn’t triggered. This isn’t
rocket science.

------
KoftaBob
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and speculate. Epstein was probably an agent
for CIA and/or Mossad, and orchestrated honeypots where prominent figures were
lured into sleeping with underage girls. It's such a predictable way for
intelligence agencies to gain power over powerful figures.

Once he was headed for a long prison sentence and logically had nothing to
lose, the powerful people he had blackmail material over would obviously
choose to get rid of him to prevent the chance that he revealed everything.
It's really not that far fetched.

------
api
It is a suicide, just a complex and prolonged one.

(1) Blackmail a whole lot of extremely powerful people.

(2) Get busted and go to prison.

(3) Wait for a hit man to come kill you.

I guess it worked though.

------
SpikeDad
If by noted pathologist you mean someone that will say anything if they're
paid enough then perhaps that's true.

------
mrjlu
I wonder what the guards on duty that day are doing with their millions right
now

------
kpU8efre7r
This guy isn't even the one who did the autopsy. Why do we care what he says?

~~~
whamlastxmas
My doctor wasn't even there when I contracted the AIDS virus, why should I
even care what he says?

p.s. the doctor was there for the autopsy.

------
HNLurker2
I already knew that

------
wallace_f
Wow, I'm so surprised.

------
harry8
ok so, tinfoil hat - absolutely, how sure are we that the body was actually
his?

~~~
harry8
I'm assuming that this is so obvious that it's considered not worth
discussing, which is fine. I'd just like to know how are we sure that it's his
body? What is the evidence for that? Is it just too hard to fake it and get
away with it? Too James Bong (well it is, sure) but how do we know that's not
possible?

I'm prepared to believe it but I'm suddenly just really reluctant to believe
anything about this case without evidence.

------
spamizbad
This doesn't make sense. This man has done so much for science and wayward
teens.... who could possibly want to kill him?

------
dwoozle
I think sadly (or deliberately) this has been framed as murder vs suicide.
Either way, it’s deliberate... Osama Bin Laden would have never been allowed
to commit suicide in his cell. Someone looked the other way on purpose.

~~~
sixothree
> Someone looked the other way on purpose.

Very much the story of his entire life.

------
kd3
To understand how things work at Epstein levels of elite, look up and watch
the interviews with whistle-blower Ronald Bernard by Cooperatie de Vrije
Media. Be sure to watch the first two interviews in full.

------
NoblePublius
These headlines should all read “says 85 year old man who didn’t examine his
body.”

~~~
jowday
He examined the body. Re-read the article.

