
Apple is rebuilding Maps from the ground up - xuki
https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/29/apple-is-rebuilding-maps-from-the-ground-up/
======
dalbasal
Apple maps is an odd sort of problem for apple to have taken on.

First, it's Google head on. This is exactly the stuff where Google is very
hard to beat. For Apple, it's a little outside their strengths. Too fiddly.
Every damned place in the world has their own little public transport issues,
data sources. Apple are more of a _clever solution with the right compromises_
bunch than a " _slog our way through 10 million random issues until a pattern
emerges_ " bunch.

I like the moxy, but there's always going to be an "are we the new Bing?"
cloud hanging over projects like this, unless and until they "win." All that
said, I'm glad there is something out there that isn't google.

~~~
macintux
I'll quote my reply from a similar comment...

What choice do they have? Maps, location data, and the services they enable
are critical to mobile devices today, and will only get more so with AR and
devices without screens.

“Everybody but Google” isn’t good enough judging by the current state of
affairs, and Google doesn’t play by the same privacy rules as Apple, so they
seem to have few options.

~~~
untog
They could sponsor OpenStreetMaps and dedicate resources to it, donate
satellite imagery etc. They'd get a lot of great data in return.

~~~
macintux
OSM is orders of magnitude worse than Apple's current data set in my area, and
I doubt that's unusual.

So the question for Apple is why tie themselves to a 3rd party platform? If
they're going to go to this massive level of effort to generate the best data
set they can achieve, they'll want to control the full stack for quality and
predictability.

They could feed the OSM-relevant data they create to the platform, but that
means a lot more work to create and maintain the integration tools and manage
the workflow, along with potentially reduced revenues if they make OSM too
good.

I doubt they'll care about any threat from OSM, but I doubt they'd see the
overall effort as a good business investment. This isn't as straightforward as
open sourcing some software.

~~~
rubyn00bie
I think Apple sponsoring and improving OSM would actually be the smartest and
best way out of this debacle.

I think a perfect example of Apple doing this is: Webkit. Webkit gets back a
lot from Apple (though I'm sure there's plenty of room to be miffed at Apple
for being slow sometimes, but it still doesn't disprove the point) and it's a
core part of their user-facing applications.

Personally, I'd like to see them just open source what they have and let the
world enjoy. Either approach would certainly remove the death grip Google has
on mapping solutions right now.

Edit: update for grammar and clarity fixes.

~~~
krick
> Apple sponsoring and improving OSM would actually be the smartest and best
> way out of this debacle

I _like_ to be thinking that, but being aware of me liking that thought, I'm
asking myself: would I _actually_ do so being some Apple executive? And I'm
not sure I would. I do think that being community-supported is really, really
great, and OSM has a pretty good community too. I'm a big opensource
proponent, so it's easy for me to say, but I also think having their maps
(software and data) free (as in GNU, yeah) wouldn't harm Apple, given the map
is not their unique product they are selling. And being a native supporter of
something that could be wikipedia for maps would be huge. So, yeah… yay OSM?

But, with all that said: IMO, OSM is a huge organizational mess. Giving them
money & satellites, and then just expecting it will all "solve itself out"
isn't _really_ something I would do being responsible for Apple Maps. For
starters, it's not like all OSM community members automatically become Apple
employees, you're basically donating to somebody over whom you won't have any
leverage. What's more important, it's not clear what it the goal of the
donation, what OSM is expected to do with that? And how it will serve Apple?
Their priorities seem to be quite off, OSM doesn't give a shit about any
"product" whatsoever, they are just guys passionate about collecting all sorts
of geo-data into databases nobody ever uses (at least, as far as OSM is
concerned, they are the database: they don't make apps). And it's even
questinable if such way of collecting data is the way to go in the age of
imaging satellites, widely accepted spyware on every phone, ML and "big data".

And it's not like this is cheap, any way it would be done. And, no offense,
but "partnering" with OSM wouldn't be exactly partnering. OSM doesn't have
managers, engineers or cartographers any better than Apple can hire, all they
have is community, which wouldn't even be OSM community anymore, if Apple
rolls out a better (and more accessible) open geo-spatial DB than OSM has.
Which, I believe, they are capable of.

~~~
2muchcoffeeman
Couldn’t they just fork OSM? If OSM wants to merge, go for it. Otherwise we
have a new opensource map project. Not sure why we care if the original
project lives or dies.

~~~
krick
I guess they could. But since they have to do everything themselves anyway,
why bother? I'm not sure about the legal aspect, but even so, I'm pretty sure
Apple can use OSM's data in one way or another would they need to (in fact,
article states that they did use it in the earlier versions of the map). And
since they are making the map on their own, nothing forces them to open-source
the DB right now: should they decide that it will be beneficial they can do it
any time in the future. And should they decide it isn't: they just don't.

------
forgot-my-pw
For those interested, this site gives good thorough comparisons between
different map services (mostly Google & Apple):
[https://www.justinobeirne.com/](https://www.justinobeirne.com/)

Latest entry in Dec 2017: How far ahead of Apple Maps is Google Maps?
[https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-
moat](https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat)

~~~
zabuni
If you compare the article, the main takeaway is that Apple seems to be
starting to use some of the improvements that Google has been adding to their
map program the last several years.

-Satellite imagery to generate build footprints. -Lots of human intervention -Land based car imagery

~~~
notatoad
Which is both a good and a bad sign. It's good that apple is doing these
things, but not encouraging that a year after a blog post highlights some of
the more interesting things google is doing, apple _starts_ doing them. Apple
maps isn't catching up, they're just barely keeping up with Google maps. And
their PR people are doing a big push to brag about it.

~~~
toasterlovin
TFA clearly states that these changes have been 4 years in the making. You
can’t roll stuff like this out a year after reading some article on Hacker
News.

------
Waterluvian
Something that drives me nuts about Google Maps is how much of it leads you to
non-spatial lists of data. We are spatial beings asking spatial questions.
Don't make me do the work of linking a list of restaurants to dots on the map.
This is a significant cartographic challenge but I think it's key to making
map software a joy to use.

I don't have an iOS device so I can't comment on current state, but I hope
this gets first class attention.

~~~
jonshariat
WHy don't we have the tech to detect hover on touchscreens yet?

Being able to hover your finger over certain points and quickly browse the
options on a map would be great.

~~~
diabeetusman
The Blackberry Storm (and Storm 2) made clicking in the screen the "tap"
action and tapping (but not clicking) the screen the "hover"-equivalent
action.

I really liked the idea (and thought the hardware was pretty good on the Storm
2), but was too unusual on too-unpopular a phone to do much of anything.

~~~
sonnyblarney
I worked on BB Storm. It was created by request from 'the major carrier that
didn't get the iPhone contract' as an 'iPhone killer'. It was done with haste,
and with specific, ugly requests from 'up on high' and was rolled out too
early.

BB never really understood how to do 'experience' \- except in things at their
core like battery length and keyboards. As nuanced and insightful as they were
there ... it's like they considered everything else a joke, or didn't want to
go deep.

The whole screen on Storm moved - neat idea - should have never made it out of
the lab. Or at least, not in the manner it was. It was possibly ahead of it's
time as I could feasibly see Apple doing something like this - the new MacPro
trackpads are very, very nice. So subtle.

But it's all history now :)

------
sonnyblarney
If Apple staff are reading this - please fix this ridiculous issue - the fact
metro stations show up at arbitrary levels of zoom. Zome show up at level x,
some show at x+1, and some dissapear at x+1, meaning at many levels, you see
some, not others.

Also - an option to basically always show metro/subway locations.

You jam the map full of stuff I'm not interested in - when I'm basically
trying to find the subway stop.

A lot of people use the metro in cities. Almost everyone.

It's like the absence of a subway in the Silicon Valley makes you oblivious to
'master use cases'?

Also - I want to get rid of the address taking up a chunk on the screen but I
want the pin to remain. Can you get that? So simple. Maybe leave the last few
things pinned.

More generally the ability to have 'default' filters for the kinds of things
you show and don't that are perhaps relevant to what I'm looking for.

So many nuanced rough edges, I feel you're going to have to _spend some time
in the field_ and _spend time with users_ in a very, very detailed way to
capture these little things to take it to the next level.

~~~
thanatos_dem
WRT the metro issue, have you tried switching the map into "Transit" view? Hit
the information (ⓘ) icon and select "Transit" under map settings. That shows
all the transit lines & stops.

As you zoom out, the subway lines do disappear, but are replaced with national
rail lines, and then keep zooming out and it shifts to showing major
international rail terminals.

It doesn't hide all of the other stuff shown on the map, but it does
effectively highlight each transit line, so it's easy to find the closest line
and then scan it for nearby stations.

~~~
ChrisBland
I have the same issue with Apple maps (chicago). If we (tech community) can't
figure this out or its a painful UI for us; what hope does Jane Doe have in
middle america? Google makes it super easy to find and navigate our train
system.

~~~
madeofpalk
How does Google make it easy to find and navigate the train system?

Don't most people look for directions from a to b, by a certain mode? I've
extensively used both Google and Apple maps for this and found very little
difference between the two when doing this. I tend to use Google more when
traveling because it supports more cities, but when I use Apple Maps in a
supported city, I find it tends to give more useful information (like what
line to catch, or how many stops) easier.

------
Edd314159
Is the consensus that Apple Maps _still_ sucks? Sure, the launch was horrible,
but it's seen years of progress and nowadays I find it perfectly usable. I use
it over Google Maps without hesitation.

Now I'm scared they're gonna break it again by rebuilding it. If it ain't
broke (any more), don't fix it.

~~~
GuardianCaveman
One of the most frustrating things for me with Apple maps is having a view of
the city I’m in and searching for something like ramen restaurant and it takes
me to another country like Singapore and says there’s a restaurant named “the
ramen restaurant “.

I won’t use it now because of this.

~~~
NegativeLatency
That seems like a server side problem, related to poor search and/or bad data.

IMO The UX of apple maps is better than google maps (exempting biking
directions)

~~~
mcny
The entire point of using a map is the data. Who cares about the chrome of the
app?

~~~
bunderbunder
Well, for example, I won't use Google Maps for driving directions because of a
chrome issue: The voice they use is about the same pitch as the background
driving noise in my car, so it can be difficult to understand if I don't
really crank the volume.

Apple Maps doesn't always find the fastest route, but at least I can
understand what it's saying.

------
beaconfield
As a long time Google user who, for privacy reasons, migrated most of my stuff
away from Google I welcome this effort. I've been using Apple Maps for some
time now and it's better than it was at launch, though not as good as Google.

I hope their renewed effort to improve Apple Maps pays off mainly because of
their privacy-first mentality.

Also, I've noticed that whenever I submit a request for them to fix something,
say, a business that's not listed I get a response and the item fixed within a
day or two.

------
dep_b
I have been using Michelin maps for traveling in Europe and while the app
fails in many regards it's really so much better in terms of _useful data
visible on the map_ and the maps are so _nice looking_.

We really took a big step backwards with Google Maps and the maps that are
trying to be Google Maps. The maps are garish and have no useful details. I
have to scroll and zoom around until the name of the street I'm currently in
decides to appear.

And then those huge swathes of nothing. Random stores being indicated. But you
always get an incomplete set of data. Not every store on the block or nothing.

~~~
nilkn
Labeling in general is incredibly problematic in Google Maps. It's amazing to
me that I can do a search for restaurants, hover over a shopping strip that I
know has 5 restaurants, and only one of them shows up no matter how far I zoom
in. I'll wonder if Google just doesn't have data for the other four, do a
direct search for one of them, and then find that it actually has loads of
data, 100+ reviews, links to the menu, photos, etc.

~~~
Firerouge
Of equal annoyance, I've discovered searching for food on Google maps doesn't
include the best and closest local pizzas joint, it'll only show if you search
specifically for pizza

------
7ero
One of my gripes with iOS is the ability to select a default maps app. It
bothers me that when I try to share my location through iMessage, it forces me
to view the information by opening apple maps and you cannot copy and paste
the location into another mapping app. I believe this was a terrible strategy
to get users to use apple maps.

------
joshe
Apple's web javascript mapping free tier is huge (just announced at WWDC).

    
    
      Apple
      250K map views / *day*
    
      Mapbox
      50K map views / month
    
      Google ($200 credit buys you)
      28k map views dynamic on web / month
    

267 times more free tier than Google, and 150 times more than Mapbox.

Can't find pricing after the free tier, maybe they'll announce it after the
beta is over.

Once out of beta this would be a good choice if you have a lot of map views.

~~~
ksec
Can I use this outside of Apple Ecosystem? On Android or Windows? Of are the
Map Views strictly Apple devices only?

~~~
Aaronn
Sure, you can use it anywhere. It is just a JavaScript API.

[https://vasile.github.io/mapkit-js-
demo/map.html](https://vasile.github.io/mapkit-js-demo/map.html)

[https://developer.apple.com/documentation/mapkitjs](https://developer.apple.com/documentation/mapkitjs)

------
uptown
The one view that both Apple and Google seem to promote is the 3D geometric
view of buildings and other large fixed objects like trees. While the
technical achievement of generating these views impressive, I don't find them
useful, and frequently find that it makes viewing the satellite view more-
difficult to perceive. Google still provides the "flat" satellite view, but
it's somewhat buried in the menus. Bing Maps used to provide very high-
resolution 45 degree shot photographed from airplanes, but this is no longer
available.

~~~
hyperrail
> _Bing Maps used to provide very high-resolution 45 degree shot photographed
> from airplanes, but this is no longer available._

Bing still has this feature, though they've updated it (made it less
discoverable, I feel) and removed older photos. If you go to
[https://www.bing.com/maps](https://www.bing.com/maps) and point at the "Road"
menu on the upper right, you will see "We have updated Bird's Eye. Learn
more", which gives you the following information:

> _Bird 's Eye has changed_

> _New and crisp Bird 's Eye imagery is available in many metropolitan areas.
> There are two ways of viewing the new Bird's Eye._

> _1\. In cards_

> _2\. Right-click on the map_

> _Note: Bird 's Eye may not be available in your area as outdated imagery is
> no longer available._

If I go to central San Francisco or Seattle, I can right-click the map as
indicated and select "View bird's eye", and the picture will show up.

~~~
uptown
Thanks. They sure did bury what used to be one of my favorite views.

------
thinkingemote
Google and Apple are not the only players in this game.

As, relevant to this story is the announcement today that Microsoft / Bing has
just released 125,000,000 building footprints as open data (i.e. suitable for
OpenStreetMap)

[https://blogs.bing.com/maps/2018-06/microsoft-
releases-125-m...](https://blogs.bing.com/maps/2018-06/microsoft-
releases-125-million-building-footprints-in-the-us-as-open-data/)

------
djsumdog
Apple should really make a web version of maps. iProduct exclusivity is not
going to help them with Maps. Having another web alternative to Google maps
could even help with iProduct sales.

~~~
jw1224
This was just announced at WWDC:
[https://developer.apple.com/maps/mapkitjs/](https://developer.apple.com/maps/mapkitjs/)

------
Juxtaposedwords
"There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but somehow, there
is always enough time to do it over."

~~~
skygazer
... and thus was born iterative development.

------
noirbot
I'm very ready to move off of Google Maps, but as of yet, I can't emulate the
biggest feature it has for me elsewhere: a spacial bookmarking system. My
primary use of Google Maps is to remember places that I've been recommended by
other people, and then when I go "I'm traveling to Portland, what places
should I go?" I can check Google maps for everywhere I've tagged before.

If Apple Maps gives me that, especially if it syncs from a webapp to my phone,
I'm in.

~~~
lawkwok
If you click on a pin and scroll down the card, there is a “Favorite” button.
Clicking it will add it to your Favorites list which can be accessed at the
bottom of the search results list. The list syncs to your Mac Maps app too.

The interface is not the most intuitive but it’s there.

------
DonHopkins
In order to satisfy my desire to rage against the machine, I like to set a
destination in the opposite direction of where I'm driving, and listen to the
voice navigation system desperately try to talk me into making a U-turn. It
would be even more satisfying if the speech synthesizer's tone of voice grew
increasingly frustrated and baffled, as I ignored its futile pleas while
driving further away from my stated destination.

------
misterhtmlcss
With Waze, the ubiquity of Google Maps, improvements in city traffic data and
AI tech, I'm genuinely surprised Google still uses 1km as a measurement form
versus prioritizing time in minutes.

In my urban driving experience I rarely consider distance over other factors,
such as time and/or comfort of the drive.

In my city I will often make alternative choices not based on distance, but on
the amount of effort I need to put into the ride itself. Right now I'm just
waiting for my lady and when she gets in the car I'm not taking the fastest
route at all, but the most leisurely route to our brunch.

Am I alone in feeling these are two different yet valid (more than just me)
forms of user experience?

------
mulmen
Will they finally create a map app that shows street names? Even Google can't
seem to accomplish this without a ton of scrolling around and zooming in and
out to get the name to show up.

These apps are really more for _navigation_ than maps in my experience.

------
growt
I read "Macs" instead of "Maps" and got really excited for a few seconds.

------
DanBC
I'd love it if any of the map makers had a button for "I am on a bus", which
then i) sent a ton of data to them to improve their maps and ii) provided a
more useful map version.

------
panabee
one common comment is how the traffic data for google maps (and waze) trumps
the quality of other map alternatives because it has the most users and
therefore the most data for real-time traffic.

could anyone with map/traffic experience please comment on when data scale
overshoots functional requirements? that is, what is the user threshold (e.g.,
1,000 users in the same 5 mile radius) above which traffic accuracy stops
improving?

~~~
toxik
Google Maps is definitely better in terms of completeness and updatedness for
iOS, in all regards: what places there are, what roads there are (esp. in
rural areas), and the arrival time estimator is just better-informed.

But for me, that is not all there is. I want an app that feels light and
responsive, when I'm on say a bike, or in traffic. It needs to be reliable and
not get forced to shutdown due to memory constraints. It also should not sell
my data to the devil. All of these are ways in which Apple Maps is better.

------
ksec
It Is a little hard to understand, how 6 years went by and they still have
nothing to show for. The only map I find that that good enough is in China.
Mainly because there are only a few Data Sources and they are all backed by
government. Other location, I have yet to hear a case where Apple's Data is
better then Google.

It has been going for long time. For example in Japan, where Apple has 50+%
market share, has a Mapping services that is utter crap. Ata Distance [1] has
been covering everything Apple in Japan, and I think they are doing fine there
because everyone uses Yahoo Map.

My problem is these sort of rebuilding from ground up ( Which they state
started 4 years ago ), is going to take years before it is any good. I doubt
they could get it near to their current 3rd party Data sources within 3 years.
And possibly another 3 years before it reach better than current solution.

[1]
[https://atadistance.net/category/maps/](https://atadistance.net/category/maps/)

~~~
freetonik
>Other location, I have yet to hear a case where Apple's Data is better then
Google.

Given the locked-in nature of iOS and proprietary integrations, Apple Maps
doesn't have to be better than Google, it doesn't even have to be as good as
Google. It just has to be okay.

~~~
ksec
And It is good enough mostly in US, UK only. ( And China ) Others are being
left frustrated how unusable it is.

------
iNerdier
The one thing they would have to add to get me to change is adding an option
to cycle. Living in a city with reasonable bike facilities makes it
particularly grating that the default is suggesting that I want to drive
_everywhere_. I know it’s US focused and you guys are car centric but come on,
it’s been years!

~~~
ebikelaw
I think bicycling directions might be the hardest thing. Google has it but
it's pretty bad. It often tries to send me up routes that are shorter but MUCH
too steep [1], or up an off-road trail on which bicycles are forbidden [2].
They should combine their data with Strava global heatmap to work out which
routes are actually used by practicing cyclists. You can see from Strava[3]
that all three of the routes in [1] are ignored by all cyclists, who choose
another route that isn't presented. The routes given by Google are very
difficult for even strong athletes to climb.

Anyway, it's possible that Apple sees it as just beyond their capabilities at
this time.

1:
[https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.8505318,-122.2224643/37.8...](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.8505318,-122.2224643/37.8678409,-122.2163599/@37.8569854,-122.2294845,14.81z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e1)

2:
[https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Canyon,+CA/Oakland,+Californ...](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Canyon,+CA/Oakland,+California/@37.8296521,-122.2381077,13.78z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x808f87ef9ccad4e9:0x41abd803a47fdf7d!2m2!1d-122.1658805!2d37.8306731!1m5!1m1!1s0x80857d8b28aaed03:0x71b415d535759367!2m2!1d-122.2711137!2d37.8043637!3e1)

3:
[https://www.strava.com/heatmap#14.73/-122.22836/37.85920/hot...](https://www.strava.com/heatmap#14.73/-122.22836/37.85920/hot/all)

~~~
Doctor_Fegg
o/

I do bike directions based on OSM data:
[https://cycle.travel/map](https://cycle.travel/map)

~~~
ebikelaw
Interesting. Your routes are much worse :-/ From downtown Berkeley to Grizzly
Peak it routes me up Marin Avenue, a 30-degree slope that nobody would
willingly bicycle up.

~~~
Doctor_Fegg
Elevation is a difficult one to get right. I'll look into it - out of
interest, which way would you go?

~~~
ebikelaw
Euclid to Grizzly Peak is canon. You can see it clearly on the Strava heatmap.

------
thelastidiot
One sensible plan would be to make Apple Map available on Android so they
could capture twice as much data and user feedback than they can today. I
hardly can see Apple winning that big data game vs Google. What's next? Fixing
Siri and launching a better search engine? What a waste of talent time.

------
mistrial9
.. there is a big difference between maps-for-consumer appliances and maps-as-
fundemental-plumbing. Many comments and such will not make much sense if they
are viewed only from a "consumer" point of view.. Spatial data is too
important for only that..

~~~
whoisjuan
I like this concept by Mapbox. It really changes the way you could use a map:
[https://www.fastcodesign.com/90143906/theres-an-entirely-
new...](https://www.fastcodesign.com/90143906/theres-an-entirely-new-way-of-
mapping-the-world-and-its-brilliant?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com)

~~~
Kliment
non-blogspam original source [https://blog.mapbox.com/a-new-kind-of-map-its-
about-time-7bd...](https://blog.mapbox.com/a-new-kind-of-map-its-about-
time-7bd9f7916f7f)

------
yakubin
> The maps need to be usable, but they also need to fulfill cognitive goals on
> cultural levels that go beyond what any given user might know they need. For
> instance, in the US, it is very common to have maps that have a relatively
> low level of detail even at a medium zoom. In Japan, however, the maps are
> absolutely packed with details at the same zoom, because that increased
> information density is what is expected by users.

I hope it will be customisable. I'm in Europe and basically every map app has
this bug that at a certain zoom level useful data isn't visible (even though
it could easily fit on the screen) while a closer zoom requires a lot of
annoying scrolling.

------
tiles
I hope, though it does not seem evident here, that this data can be
contributed back to OSM.

------
andor
_There is only really one big company on earth that owns an entire map stack
from the ground up: Google_

Here Maps still exist... you might not have the app installed on your phone,
but they provide map-related data, software and services to car manufacturers.

------
JumpCrisscross
I use Apple Maps as my default map. The privacy stance is a strong enough
sell, particularly for something as sensitive as mapping. I think I've had to
jump to Google Maps once in the past few weeks. (Caveat: I don't drive.)

------
cimnine
One of my favorite features of Google Maps is the one-finger zoom: Tap
anywhere on the map and then make the scroll guesture (it feels like a double-
tap, but the second tap is a swipe up or down guesture instead).

Because I usually operate my phone with one hand only the "pinch-to-zoom"
guesture is just a pain (especially when you're carrying something in the
other hand) and zoom buttons are easy to miss (e.g. while walking). This
guesture also works to zoom in and out in Google Chrome, yet I don't think
I've seen it in the Apple world yet (except of course in products made by
Google for Apple devices).

~~~
heed
Apple Maps has this gesture now too.

------
ingenieroariel
Apple realizing this was important makes me think it is even more important
for all of us to have the same kind of data in the public domain.

If someone can pony up 100K (what it costs to retrofit a car like the one
pictured in the article) I could fund someone to drive it for 6 months around
Barranquilla, Santa Marta and Cartagena in Colombia and put out an open
dataset. I promise return the heavily used hardware after the 6 months and
work with archive.org to publish it for posterity, then someone else can do
the same in another country. Even if it takes us 30 years, it's worth doing.

~~~
mackrevinack
well there is always mapillary which only requires a single smartphone camera
at the least. some people go the extra mile and mount a camera pointing each
direction, others use 360 cameras. you can also upload dash cam video and it
will extract photos from it.

its sort of like quantity over quality. google/apple map cars record great
quality but there is too much area to cover so they can only update maybe
every few years. (some places still arent on google street view yet). whereas
most people have decent cameras on their phones these days so the area they
travel around could potentially be updated more often, just with lower quality

the photos are analysed in much the same way as described in the article...
faces and licence plates are blurred, a (rough) 3d point cloud is made, street
signs are analysed and objects are segmented (which they will be using for.

unfortunately mapillary is not public domain but its still a better system
than each company recording their own streetview data and keeping it to
themselves. it just seems ridiculous for each company to put so much effort
into creating a full detailed map of the world when they could all just be
contributing to one map (like openstreetmap)

------
nixpulvis
I've been saying this for years now. I want Apple Maps (cartography) with
Google Maps search, and navigation. For example bike directions would be
really nice.

------
cygned
Have been in the US and CA for a couple of weeks lately and used both Apple
Maps and Google Maps. And I have to say that Apple Maps was way better during
my stay. The navigation was more precise, even telling me the exact lane to
stay in. And it was more human-like, Google Maps seemed to sound unfriendly
and very much like a computer (hard to describe).

Just a personal opinion, though, I expect things to be different in other
areas.

~~~
skygazer
The specific lane guidance in Apple Maps beats Google Maps hands down at the
moment. I can finally just listen to directions without ever referring
visually to the map. The announcement timing is earlier than Google Maps
(which you can hear if you run them both simultaneously) and more information
rich, for instance telling you the subsequent-after-upcoming turn direction,
which helps you get over in time. Google Maps always leaves me scrambling at
the last minute. And Siri's voice is definitely less robotic as of iOS 11.

I still often have to use Google Maps (or Waze) to find directions to a
location in the form of "Albertson's on Tropicana." Google always gets this
right, but Apple Maps only gets this only if you're close to the location.
Same thing with intersections. Google Maps is always right, but Apple Maps
requires you know and provide the full street name, including Blvd, Pkwy,
Avenue, etc, which is infuriating.

Lastly, Siri's speech recognition often gets place names badly wrong,
recognizing them as generic sound-alike nonsensical phrases, ignoring travel
context, where as Google tends to get them right as local location names,
somehow factoring travel context into the recognition.

If I can get the destination into Apple Maps easily, I prefer Apple Maps, if
not, I go with Waze/Google Maps.

------
callumprentice
Ironic that Apple introduce improvements to Maps just as they open up Car Play
to Google Maps and Waze. Maybe it's because they think they're on par now (or
will be) and don't need to block everything else.

Our car has Car Play so I've been using Maps exclusively up to now and whilst
I think I still prefer Waze overall, Maps is perfectly fine and I've gotten
used to its rough edges.

~~~
xmodem
I don't accept the thesis that Apple locks third-parties out of things like
CarPlay out of a desire to lock their users into more of Apple's services. I
think it has more to do with wanting to do things right and ensure a
consistent user experience.

(I'll admit that it's sometimes hard to square this viewpoint with the level
of brokenness they ship)

------
Bhilai
I support this and would actively use Apple Maps because competition is
healthy and I don't want to be dependent on Google all the time.

------
alistairSH
My biggest problem with Apple Maps (or maybe it's Siri, not sure) is search. I
ask "give me directions to the Apple store in DC" and it returns a single
entry for the Apple Store that happens to be closest. The algorithm appears to
weight current location to the point that searching for anything outside your
immediate vicinity is useless.

Am I the only one with this problem?

------
larrywright
I don't drive as much as a lot of people, but I have never felt that Apple
Maps was really lacking. The only issue I've ever had with it was in Chicago
once, where it directed me onto Lower Wacker, but then gave me directions as
if I were on Upper Wacker (arguably a weird edge case anyway). Aside from that
one issue, it's been rock solid for me.

------
tokyodude
I've got 100s or possibly 1000s of place markers in Google Maps. I wonder if
it's time that mapping apps start developing a standard for exchanging data?
The GDPR mentions data portability. If I can't import my place markers (with
notes and categories) it would be as bad for me as not being able to import my
contact list into a new email client.

------
onetimemanytime
Any idea if
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_(company)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_\(company\))
would have made a good acquisition for Apple...instead of rolling their own ?
Several billion was /is nothing for Apple, and smartphones without maps are
quite useless for a lot of things.

------
Beefin
I’ve had plenty of experiences comparing google maps and Apple maps in turn by
turn directions, and found the Apple version always took a detour to get to
the same direction. This, combined with further antecdotal experiences like
friends getting lost with their Apple map app open leads me to steer far away
from Apple maps (atleast for walking)

------
tomrod
They could beat Google maps for me if they make it cross platform and simplify
the interface.

Google maps is dense. Sometimes that's necessary. But it's too dense.
Especially for a navigator.

Something between Waze and Maps would be a sweet spot for me.

I know a few of their data scientists--they have a good and talented crew
working at it. I look forward to seeing what they accomplish.

------
Operyl
Man, I can't even count the number of times that Apple Maps has sent me to the
wrong block for a business. I give up, open Google Maps, and figure out
exactly where I need to go. When you live in the suburbs, with giant shopping
centers every block, and 30-40 stores in each, it does get a little old.

------
lenocinor
Since people are asking a lot about Google / Apple Maps differences -- how
does Apple Maps handle elevation? Google Maps often seems to send me up and
down the same really steep (and often poorly maintained) narrow streets when
I'm driving, which is more dangerous and stressful for me.

~~~
rconti
I believe Google Maps cycling and walking directions take this into account,
but not driving directions, because typically cars and motorcycles have 0
issue with up and down grades; poorly maintained and narrow should be taken
into account in Google Maps directions for cars, though.

I'm not 100% sure how much Google Maps Cycling directions try to avoid hills,
but they DO list the elevation change in the sidebar, at least on a web
browser, so they're aware of the concern over elevation change.

~~~
lenocinor
The narrow part is mainly because of cars parked on the sides, so I can see
why maybe they wouldn't consider that. The poorly-maintained part, though, I
don't know. I got nothing there.

EDIT: I also wish Google Maps would take into account that your average person
will walk slower up tall hills. In my experience, it doesn't seem to do that.

------
anonfunction
Living in the United States both google and apple maps have been really good
for a long time. After moving to Vietnam I’ve found both to be not accurate.
Many times I’ll find a place on google then have the map show a completely
different address and street then the actual address.

------
bdcravens
Like most I prefer Google Maps, but having a car with CarPlay, I either want
Google Maps to have access to it (you can jailbreak, but it just puts the app
on the screen; it doesn't provide the CarPlay specific functionality) or get
Apple Maps to "good enough".

~~~
macintux
iOS 12 allows mapping apps to be used via CarPlay.

~~~
bdcravens
Nice! Was wearing my sales hat at a trade show when that announcement came
out; I need to do a better job of keeping up :-)

------
on_and_off
>It’s doing this by using first-party data gathered by iPhones with a privacy-
first methodology

what ? Do they ask user to opt-in into this ? Because otherwise that sounds
impossible to achieve (I am not against anonymous data collection but most
people coalesce this with losing privacy)

------
ornel
Google Maps, last time I checked, is extra bad in third-world rural areas.
Next to useless when the pavement disappears and it's all dirt roads, which is
a lot of the world in poor countries. I guess there are no Starbucks, i.e. not
enough people to sell stuff to.

~~~
mrep
So which app is better?

------
foresterh
I don't see the article mentioning the Apple street view car I saw driving
around my neighborhood in St Louis. I guess that's a different initiative....?
Seems like a pretty big deal for them to try and have their own version of
Google's street view.

------
bsvalley
Think of it this way:

First, electric cars

second, AI and self-driving cars

third, high speed internet in your vehicle where you can surf the Web.
Location will be a huge deal.

Apple needs to master this space, Maps is just a client consuming data and
displaying it in a form of a map. Geolocated data is where the money will be.

------
pascoej
Apple maps works in China and it’s the only good english option. Enough reason
to use for me.

------
Bokanovsky
Here's the obligatory Silicon Valley clip link, where a focus group states how
bad the product is:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVq1wgIN62E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVq1wgIN62E)

------
ksec
This is may be a silly question to ask. Apart from Google, and Apple. What
other Mapping solution are there that has its interest to be the best Mapping
services? OpenStreetMap is good but far from competitor to Apple or Google.

------
dvcrn
I like Apple maps and use it instead of google maps for most of my things.
Yeah it has its problems and I sometimes need to fallback to google but for
most of my uses it’s good enough.

I hope Apple will put a bit more love into maps going forward

------
supernovae
I just wish we had a real choice. Maps seem vendor lock-in especially when you
use carplay or android auto. I want to use Gaia for offroading but can't use
it while in auto mode... really sucks.

~~~
Aaronn
iOS 12 has support for third party navigation apps in CarPlay
[https://www.engadget.com/2018/06/04/apple-carplay-google-
map...](https://www.engadget.com/2018/06/04/apple-carplay-google-maps-waze-
support-ios-12/)

------
auslander
Good, less privacy data for Google !

For emails, iCloud is already there, no GMail needed.

Now, dear Apple, make an Apple search engine and all my data will be in hands
of privacy conscious company, not interested in selling it for Ads.

------
pkulak
I'm sad about this. It was my impression that Apple had decided to use, and
_contribute back to_, open map data sources. Now they have decided to just
silo all their data like everyone else?

------
myrandomcomment
Using car play as nav the one thing I want more then anything else is the
equivalent of the google offline maps download. Sometimes there is no signal
and that sucks..

------
elvirs
just recently Google Maps on Android started acting like its clueless about
its location for the first 100 feet of travel. God forbid you pull up to a gas
station on a corner of an intersection. No way in hell it will figure out
which way to go to get back on the highway. Must drive for a minute in a
random direction for Google Maps to figure out where you are, which way you
are headed and which way your destination is.

------
RyanShook
I think Apple Maps is the ideal piece of software to open source and make
available for free if the goal is to not let Google dominate geolocation data.

------
balls187
I really like Google Maps, but it's not enabled for CarPlay, so having Apple
Maps upgrade to a near 1:1 feature set with Google would be welcome.

~~~
mrep
Fortunately for you (I already switched to android to get google map car
support), apple is planning to support google maps in IOS 12:
[http://thenewswheel.com/third-party-navigation-apps-like-
goo...](http://thenewswheel.com/third-party-navigation-apps-like-google-maps-
and-waze-are-coming-to-apple-carplay/)

Although, if you are willing to check out android and a Google service fan, I
highly recommend the pixel 2 or upcoming pixel 3. I tried the HTC one and a
Samsung galxy s4 and switched back to Iphone due to shovelware/inevitable
slowness in the past. The pixel 2 though is just as fluid though as my iphone
6s and every Google service works better since it is designed by Google
through and through. I cannot confirm it won't slow down like my past phones
in a few years so take my opinion with a grain of salt but I am super happy
with my decision so far.

Also, considering that android is much more open to choosing app options,
Apple definitely seems like the predominate shovelwarer company if you prefer
Google services since Apple tends to force their own apps onto you in their
ecosystem.

~~~
balls187
Oh sweet, Google Maps in carplay. Hopefully won't require a new-headunit.

------
transformer
@sonnyblarney, try hitting the ‘i’ button on the top right to switch to
transit mode. That should keep the subway stations visible

------
gkfasdfasdf
As an avid Google maps user, this is fantastic news. More competition means
Google maps will have to keep getting better.

------
tambourine_man
When MS was the unbeatable Golias, the little guys (Apple and Google) used to
team up, each at their core competency.

Little did we know

------
artemisyna
This has to be part of Apple's AR play. I'm pretty amazed they didn't do this
sooner, honestly.

------
acjohnson55
Sounds like good money after bad to me. But then again, they've got more than
enough good money to spare.

------
bpicolo
I wonder how they'll replace the work Google has been able to do via ReCaptcha
for house numbers and such

~~~
MBCook
The article said they’re using computer vision for that stuff. Between how
good CV has gotten, the other data sets they’re comparing to, and having human
editors hopefully they’ll be able to do a pretty good job.

------
makecheck
Maps are one of many examples where users are needlessly required to adopt a
particular UI to access particular data.

I’m tired of having to accept Google’s clunky apps and stupid UI changes just
because their data is better. I want somebody to be able to buy Google’s data
(say) and decouple it. And that’s not a new problem (I don’t want to have to
use Microsoft Word either).

------
deftturtle
Partner with OSM and let users easily contribute to map edits and business
info. Problem solved.

------
heipei
Damn it, for a second there I read "Apple is rebuilding Macs from the ground
up" :(

------
MBCook
Panzarino has just posted a follow up answering questions about the update:

[https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/29/questions-about-apples-
new...](https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/29/questions-about-apples-new-maps-
answered/)

------
Havoc
I reckon they'll have a hard time taking on google maps. Google maps is for
all intents and purposes a complete solution. Does what it says & has no
obvious shortcomings.

Baring some massive leap in AI I don't see anyone gaining market share against
a well known perfectly good solution.

------
largehotcoffee
Haven't I seen this headline several times now over the years?

------
symfoniq
Now if they’ll just rebuild the MacBook Pro from the ground up...

------
lechiffre10
Wouldn't it make more sense for Apple to acquire Mapbox

------
sjg007
I wish they were smarter to search in your current location.

------
daveheq
Well what do they expect when they're not Google Maps?

------
wokawoka
I'm looking forward to see a melting bridge yet again.

------
jaimex2
Can it tell you how busy a place is yet like Google maps?

------
saudioger
They should have bought Waze when they had the chance.

------
kodablah
Glad to see a company can basically copy what another company has done to be
successful without fear of reprisal. This is not sarcasm (it's how we all get
better), but it is hypocrisy.

------
DavideNL
This is great and all, but for example, we still don't have Apple Pay in my
country (Netherlands, Europe.)

So when will we get this improved Maps, in 5+ years just like Apple Pay?

------
TylerH
Start with not sending people in the wrong direction, there's a free tip.

------
aj7
That’s a crazy enterprise- to secure a number two position. Won’t end well.

------
IloveHN84
For sure, Apple users will loose their way soon again

------
luckydata
To Apple: good luck with that. They'll need it.

------
trumped
so that they can send a few more people down ravines (I guess Apple has too
much money)

------
crsv
I would like them to rebuild the Macbook Pro from the ground up. It's a much
more critical element in my life. If they keep producing inferior notebook
hardware, I'll change platforms. If I change platforms, I'm less tied to macOS
and iOS, if i'm less tied to iOS I'm more likely to change to some other
platform. If I change to some other platform, it won't matter if they made
Maps useful or not, they'll have lost me because of a more important element
in the ecosystem failed me.

~~~
arthurofbabylon
Oh, you think Apple only has 30 engineers and that they have to choose between
the MacBook Pro and Maps? They don't. Apple is trying ver very hard, and very
intelligently, to build both platforms optimally.

Please consider the quality of your comment before you post it, plus its
relevance to the topic.

I, like many, rely on HN for high-quality news and high-quality perspectives
on those topics. I'm frankly more and more dissuaded by low-quality, hardly-
on-topic comments like yours. You appear to enjoy co-opting the topic to gripe
about the MacBook Pro. Please do that somewhere else.

~~~
crsv
Well that's just like... your opinion man. I, like many apparently (judging
from the activity on the thread), feel like the commentary around
communication involving commitment to different technologies feels misaligned,
and this seems like an example of one. I felt like this perspective was fair
game for the discussion. I can empathize with your desire to have explicitly
defined and targeted discussions that meet your individual needs, I get how
that would be a wonderful thing, but I politely decline your request to take
my thoughts elsewhere. You can certainly get more engaged with the community
and earn enough Karma to downvote discussions that lack value in your eyes,
that's completely reasonable.

------
tcmb
They should rebuild iTunes from the ground up. Unlike iTunes, users have
alternatives to go to for maps.

~~~
amelius
Yes. I don't get why Apple is often praised for getting UI "right", when
iTunes, one of the central components of their system, is clearly a design
gone bad.

~~~
ebikelaw
How it is central? I use an iMac and an iPhone exclusively and I have done so
since those things existed, but I never use iTunes. What's it good for?

~~~
rileymat2
iTunes was pretty essential to interacting with the iPhone in the past.
Backups and such. I am not sure this is the case in the present with the
reliance on iCloud.

~~~
scarface74
You haven't needed iTunes for anything except putting your own music on your
device since iOS 5 in the summer of 2011.

You can even do that without iTunes if you pay $25 a year for iTunes Match.

~~~
tcmb
Honest question, how do you use iTunes match without iTunes? I thought you'd
have to add music to your library first in order for it to be matched and
available on mobile?

My original comment was about iTunes on desktop, although the mobile version
is also confusing and counter-intuitive, but much less buggy.

~~~
scarface74
True. My hatred for iTunes involves syncing with iOS devices. I don't mind
iTunes for music management. You still can't create smart playlists and do
some of the advanced music management stuff on the iPhone but you can sync
playlists etc. without connecting your phone with it.

I never knew exactly what type of catastrophe would happen to my iPhone when
it "synced" with iTunes.

------
ambicapter
Why doesn't Apple uses its hundreds of billions of dollars that it has no use
for to buy maps from companies with good data?

~~~
rpowers
Because their data is garbage. Did you even read the article?

------
brightball
I'd be pretty happy if they just let me change the default maps app on my
iPhone to Waze or Google Maps.

------
ProAm
Good artists copy; great artists steal. TBH this is long overdue.

~~~
MBCook
Did you notice the part where they’ve been working on it since about a year or
two after the original Maps launched?

Making good a new globe covering map data layer is not exactly a 9mo project.

~~~
ProAm
It took 2 years after the first abomination to realize they needed to start
over? For a company that has almost a quarter trillion in capital in the bank,
yes this is slow and overdue and a bit embarrassing. Maybe navigation
directions will appear in the touch bar though. Im being a bit snarky but this
isn't a proud moment for Apple.

~~~
MBCook
The first one had to be rushed into production because Google forced their
hand with renewing the existing contract.

It sounded like many inside knew it wasn’t ready.

Forstall lost his job over it, didn’t he?

~~~
ProAm
I agree with all that, but it's also been 7 years. It's just been a long time
and a disappointing result.

------
everdev
> They did it by making the single worst strategic mistake that any software
> company can make: They decided to rewrite the code from scratch. [0]

[0] [https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-
should-...](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-
do-part-i/)

~~~
denzil_correa
> They decided to rewrite the code from scratch.

I'm not sure if Apple Maps rewrites "code from the scratch". From the article,
it seems they are building "Maps from the scratch" with some code reuse.

------
JustSomeNobody
This just seems like a huge waste of money for Apple. Smartphones need maps, I
get that, but a huge chunk of Apple's customers still use Google maps anyway.
Why not draw up an SLA with Google and just use them? There's the privacy
angle, but Apple rarely mentions that with regards to maps and, come on, look
around, average Joe just ... doesn't ... care...

I'm glad they're wasting the money, though. I like options. And they have the
money...

------
AlexMax
> It’s doing this by using first-party data gathered by iPhones with a
> privacy-first methodology

Does this seem contradictory to anybody else? Kind of like "anonymized data
collection" that turns out to be not-so-anobymous when it invariably leaks?

~~~
MBCook
No. If you read the article they explain that they send segments of your
trips, and never the start or end segment.

So even if they could find all the segments from YOUR trip (which they can’t,
according to what they’ve said) they couldn’t even reconstruct what you were
doing, only a few small stretches of road you were on.

~~~
puzzle
That is not new. And it's still not enough, because it's not impossible to
reconstruct someone's route if they drive in areas where they are the only
ones (or among the few) to send segment data.

That's why you need to do more work, as in two of Google's patents:

[https://patents.google.com/patent/US8972187B1](https://patents.google.com/patent/US8972187B1)
[https://patents.google.com/patent/US9794373B1](https://patents.google.com/patent/US9794373B1)

------
Karunamon
I wish they'd just sign a deal with Google and be done with it. The problem is
less with the maps app and more with their source of data. OSM is neat, yay
competition, etc etc, but the quality is just not there.

~~~
MBCook
Did you read the article? They’re not going to be using OSM or TomTom anymore,
they’re taking it all in house preciselynso they can fix those kind of issues.

~~~
Karunamon
Yes, I read it, and that would be strictly _worse_. Apple does not have the
reach, or infrastructure, or anything to be handling that degree of data on
their own.

~~~
zepto
What infrastructure do you think they don’t have?

------
pier25
Honestly, I think Apple is wasting resources at competing with other companies
by providing mediocre solutions.

For example competing with Google at big data and AI with Maps and Siri, or
competing with Microsoft with iWorks. Keynote is great, but I'd rather use
Google Docs or Open Office than Pages and Numbers.

In contrast, today Logic and FCPX are very competitive in their market.

~~~
naravara
>> Honestly, I think Apple is wasting resources at competing with other
companies by providing mediocre solutions.

The fact that Apple Maps exists forces Google to dedicate resources towards
keeping Google Maps decent on Apple's platform. Competition is good, even if
you don't use the competing product.

~~~
pier25
Sure, competition is good for the consumer.

But is it good for Apple to keep investing resources in something that will
most likely never be as good as the competition?

