
Ask HN: Burned out, depressed, cannot do anything - tuyguntn
Dear HN,<p>I need your gentle advice, I am fully burned out,
have a great job, where each of my step creates a trouble to someone (in terms of code)
Every single line of code I add to codebase, creates lots of bugs&#x2F;crashes. I work more than 60hours&#x2F;week, but in terms of productivity probably its 5hours&#x2F;week. When I sit to coding, I just look at the screen and do not know what to do next.<p>Leaving my job probably not an option, I have a family. Feeling so depressed.
======
ideonexus
I second the exercise recommendation. I started going to bed an hour earlier
so I could get up and jog before work each morning. A half-hour jog at
whatever pace you can take will do wonders for your stress levels and overall
mental health. As a father, getting the family to accommodate me going to bed
earlier was difficult, but we were adjusted within a few weeks.

Secondly, you _absolutely have to get your life back_. 60-hour-work weeks are
inhumane. Your job is taking 20 hours of time with your family away from you
every single week. You will never get that time back and you will always
regret having lost it.

I will always regret the lost weekends with my previous employer. Management
never gave me better evaluations or bigger raises for that time I spent
improving their bottom line. I could have spent that time making happy
memories like I do now. My experience is that if you start holding firm to
40-hour weeks, management will adjust their expectations to be more realistic.

Remember, your kids are only kids once. You _must_ stand up for your right to
spend time with them.

~~~
tygritus
What if you're only working 50 hours a week and you're single (22) but feel
burnt out (is that possible)?

~~~
ideonexus
That is absolutely possible. I remember getting burnt out many times in my
twenties. I think one thing that helps is to remember that burn-out is a
temporary phenomenon. If it lasts for longer than a month (and I've experience
this), then you need to proactively take steps to try and fight it.

I recently overcame a severe bout of burn-out using the Pomodoro Technique and
an Android app on my phone to manage it:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomodoro_Technique](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomodoro_Technique)

What this did is help _compartmentalize_ my time. If you can focus on your
work when it's work time, then you can relax and free your mind when its free-
play time. Remember, you don't need to be productive for eight hours straight,
just a 25 minute sprint. Then take a break and try another 25 minutes when you
are ready to focus again. Pretty soon you'll be getting a respectable 4 hours
of productivity in a day and that's more than most people can claim.

Most importantly: keep fighting the burn-out. If you keep facing it as a
problem and keep actively trying to find solutions to it, you will get better
and more efficient and beating it back when it does arise. I'm really sorry
you're experiencing it at the moment, but I sincerely hope you get past it
quickly and grow adept at recognizing when it's starting to happen again. You
are not alone or even unusual in experiencing this.

------
rcavezza
I think there's a few things you can do.

1.) You should put everything in perspective. You have a job that pays well
and a family. A lot of people would be envious.

2.) Working 60 hours a week doesn't do much if you're not productive. I would
start coming in 5-10 minutes later or leaving 5-10 minutes earlier each day.
See if anyone notices and then keep sliding it. I don't think the hours you
put in matter if the productivity doesn't match it.

3.) Look into test suites if possible. Don't go crazy. Just design a few tests
for some of the main functions for your software. Add 1 or 2 new tests each
time you create a new bug or encounter an issue. It doesn't have to be a
formal process with deployment, just something local on your machine to make
you feel better.

4.) Leaving your job probably not an option because you need $$$ to keep
coming in is my guess. It never hurts to look around. Email a few friends and
see if they have openings at their offices.

5.) Smile. I know we've all been in work situations that we really didn't like
or enjoy. We gritted our teeth and eventually, things got better. Either we
moved on to different jobs or things changed in our current situation.

~~~
tuyguntn
Thanks for recommendations.

I guess in my situation #3 is not an option, because as I already wrote, I
just cannot focus on work anymore, adding test cases are work to do. Thinking
about #4, probably I should quit from my current job, take a rest for a while,
probably get a loan and then come back again, but I maybe wrong

------
rrecuero
One thing that I found always helped was to acknowledge the situation. I think
this post is a great starting point. Taking a moment and say "I'm depressed, I
am burned out". And it's ok, there is nothing wrong with it. Once you do, you
relieve the tension and realize that the situation cannot really hurt you.

It happens to everyone including really successful people Like Ben Horowitz,
"when you are in the loop nothing feels easy and nothing feels right".

Now you can take baby steps to reconnect with yourself and your body. The
advice that other users gave is great: Talking a walk, meditate, exercise,
taking a break...

~~~
tuyguntn
Agree with Ben Horowitz, I am feeling that I am in some kind of loop, fail,
stand up, fail, fail, fail, stand up, a lot more fails again.

~~~
rrecuero
You are on the right path. Acknowledging it is 30%. Then, just try to focus on
the present, one thing at a time. The past can't hurt and nobody knows the
future... Good luck!

If you need to talk, feel free to reach out.

------
auternach
Here is my list for treating burn out:

1\. Cortisol and adrenaline are your new arch-enemies. Burn out is caused by
loss of control at work and other factors that skyrocket your cortisol and
adrenaline and keep them high all day long. You must reduce your cortisol
throughout the day or you will keep feeling burned out. To end burn out you
must replenish your hormones with deeply restful sleep and eliminate the loss
of control and health practices that are causing these elevated levels.
Cortisol is literally poison, get rid of it.

2\. Cut coffee / diet coke and replace with green, herbal or black tea. Coffee
/ diet coke contain an insane amount of caffeine and it can damage your
ability to get truly restful sleep and linger in your system for many hours.
If you aren't feeling rested it may be because your caffeine intake is
damaging your ability to achieve REM sleep (a known side effect of too much
coffee). Tea contains less caffeine and also contains mood-soothing chemicals
that take the edge off the buzz and promote calm and focus. Caffeine elevates
your cortisol and adrenaline and puts you into a constant state of fight or
flight. If you are chugging diet coke and coffee, cut that shit out
immediately.

3\. Renegotiate your job description. Burn out is caused by feeling like a
puppet at work and having too many people with a remote control to tell you
what to do. Independence and autonomy and individual decision making are a
requirement to be happy. Programmers tend to get treated as factory workers
where other people get to dump work on them / drag and drop tasks and they
have to do the work. Your manager is supposed to be providing cover for you.
You need to get a new deal.

Those are the main points that helped me recover recently from burn out.

~~~
huac
Diet Coke has, like, 30 mg of caffeine, half of what a cup of black tea has.
If you are worried about the stress levels, take L-Theanine supplements
instead (same active ingredient as tea).

While reducing your overall levels of caffeine consumption is probably good,
the important thing is to keep your levels consistent.

~~~
pc86
Yes the tea recommendation is flat out wrong.

------
mleonhard
I had a vitamin D deficiency which robbed my energy for several years. Since I
started taking 1,000 IU Vitamin D every day, I have had much more energy and
my "bad" days almost disappeared. This changed my life. I will take Vitamin D
supplements for the rest of my life.

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004U3Y8OM](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004U3Y8OM)

This is an easy thing to try. You can pick up "Nature Made Vitamin D3 1000 IU"
at Walgreens tonight.

~~~
saddestcatever
Anyone else tried vitamin D supplements? I've heard of people taking vitamin D
when they're not getting enough natural light (basements, winter months, etc)

~~~
jonny_storm
I take 6000IU per day. The combination of living in the midwest and working
indoors all the time is detrimental, and so vitamin D has become an important
part of my supplementation regimen.

~~~
nilved
You know better than me, but are you sure that's a healthy dose? The
recommended daily intake is a magnitude less, and vitamin D is fat soluble,
meaning you can overdose on it.

~~~
myth_drannon
Some consider it as the proper dose in certain Northern climates.
[https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/](https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/)

------
terminalcommand
I don't know if you're still following up on the answers but I'd like to
share. You might want to purchase a sleep fracker bracelet and monitor your
sleep. That way, you'll be sure that you get adequate sleep.

You also may want to separate your work and your private life. On your free
time I think you should simply do nothing for a while. No HN/no music/no
computers, hang out with friends, or simply sit and reflect.

Lastly, if you think you're irrevocably broken, you're not. You're just tired,
overworked and taken advantage of. Think, could it be any worse than working
60 hours per week and getting only 5 hours of work done.

When a CPU overheats, you let it cool down. When you can't solve a technical
problem you're facing, you take a walk, do something else and then return.
Work does not have to define who you are nor your level of success. Push out
all your haunting dreams and plans for a while and just live. No purpose, no
work outside of your job. Try to keep commitments to a minimum. With rest
you'll be better. It's just like a physical illness, if you're sick, you need
to rest to recover.

Best of luck, if you're in need of a distraction I would recommend the book:
Reasons to stay alive.

~~~
tuyguntn
Thank you so much, my sleeping behavior also broken :(, I should create a list
of things to try from this post. People helping me a lot

------
CodeWriter23
I use a canary pad next to my mouse pad to help me stay focused. When the page
is blank, I write down the next three things I need to do. As I am coding I
add more things to the list. Not highly detailed, for example, "user profile
page". Unless more detail is helpful. The point is the canary pad needs to be
a tool to help focus, and not become the focus. When I get distracted, start
staring, or get lost, I look at the pad. Don't use any software as a
substitute, it needs to be pencil (or pen if you prefer) and paper. The
kinesthetic feedback of writing is part of what helps learning and helps you
stay focused. And here's the best part, I gamify the list by crossing out the
completed task with a red pencil. It's so satisfying. And gives a strong
visual account of my productivity. Ticking a checkbox doesn't remotely
compare. When the page is full, rewrite the incomplete tasks on a fresh page
and begin again. I know it sounds laborious but the rewriting connects you
with what needs to be done. I usually rewrite once or twice a week.

It sounds to me like you get into a rush mode and get sloppy by forgetting to
test the corner cases. The pad will help.

Since you mention feeling depressed, I'm also going to put this out there. It
may or may not apply to you, and if it doesn't apply just skip right on past
this. Does the use of alcohol or other drugs correlate with the intensity of
your feelings of depression? I mention this because alcohol and a lot of drugs
are depressants.

Depression can also be anger that is focused inwardly. In that case, find a
way to express that anger externally. It may be messy at first, but the point
is to get anger flowing in the opposite direction. From there you can refine
how you express that anger externally. My journey with my anger-centric
depression started with smashing things and then evolved into establishing
healthy boundaries with the motherfuckers who were pissing me off, and also
recognizing when I need to take responsibility for myself, my work, or my
behavior.

And of course another cause of depression could be Neurochemical imbalance.
I'd look at possible substance abuse issues and anger before seeing a shrink
for antidepressants.

And take some time to enjoy your beautiful family.

------
tmaly
Try getting a little exercise to start, a simple walk helps your circulation,
and it helps clear your mind.

Try to minimize distractions at work if you can. You need to focus as much as
possible. Read the productivity part in the 4 Hour Work Week book.

If you do not have a great system in place to ensure you are not breaking
stuff, try googling "kent beck 4 rules of simple design" its a good place to
start.

------
JamesBarney
I would suggest talking to your wife. It might be feel like you're trapped but
you're not. I bet you'll be surprised with how understanding she is. And if
you ignore this situation chances are it will get a whole lot worse before it
gets any better.

And start as quickly as possible, the longer you wait the longer it will take
you to recover.(Some people on HN who tried to push through it took years to
recover)

I would really reflect on what in your life is a necessity. Ex. moving in with
parents, or wife working etc...

~~~
tuyguntn
I have already talked with her, she is really helpful, supporting. But,
thinking that the problem is inside of me distracts me a lot from helpful
advises

------
colorincorrect
As a psychologist/cognitive scientist, I personally advise

1\. Exercise

2\. Meditation in the morning (it works!)

3\. Stay healthy! It affects your mood a lot (especially having a regular
sleep schedule)

4\. At least for now, reevaluate your long-term goals and how to achieve them

5\. Don't work for such a long time period (especially if its not engaging).

~~~
shireboy
As someone who shares a similar situation as OP, I know these things will
help, but in real life, feel they are a little simplistic. Exercise often gets
sidelined because I work late, have some other activity, or am sick. Staying
healthy is a great idea too, but I've had colds on and off since November. An
infant and two potty training kids mean a regular sleep schedule is difficult.
Yes it affects my mood, but unless there's a cure for the common cold or I
ignore my kids, I don't see my way around those things. Yet, I also don't like
to just make excuses all the time - that just makes me feel worse. So I wind
up in a rut where I don't make excuses, but am just resigned to feeling
shitty.

Maybe "this too shall pass", but I'm open to suggestions as well.

~~~
colorincorrect
Yes. In practice advice from others tends to be hard to follow because there
isn't as much motivation compared to you discovering the wisdom to follow by
yourself.

If you feel this way, then perhaps the follow up question would be: what else
were you expecting? After all, its a bit unfathomable to imagine an easy
solution for your big problems.

Constantly feeling really shitty is usually caused by some kind of negative
feedback loop. If you are aware that you are deeply entrenched in a negative
cycle, then you have to find some way to break free of it.

imho this is why the "this too shall pass" or "take a vacation" approach isn't
always good, because typically what will happen is that you will return to the
very same environment that induces such a negative cycle.

Something that I would used to do is to seize some opportunity to do something
different that day and see where it would lead me, even if it seems a bit
pointless at first. (but don't do something different for the sake of being
different! you gotta "want" to do it!)

Most importantly, if you know an approach can make your situation less shitty,
than start the change now! You will only feel more shitty if you know you can
change it but didn't do so because of lack of motivation. In this sense, the
most rational thing you can do now is to implement the change you know will
help your situation.

------
flowardnut
1\. Work less

2\. Reestablish your passion. Read some interesting books (and take a break
from coding). Pick up a different language. Work on a tetris clone in
javascript. I found that getting away from Java was a nice break from work
(back when I was unfortunate enough to work with Java)

3\. I really second exercise as a way to recharge.

4\. Have any hobbies outside of computers? I find hiking/woodworking/etc to be
extremely beneficial to my coding side. When Monday rolls around and I haven't
touched a computer since Friday it's like "oh nice, I get to exercise my brain
again".

5\. At work, I'd definitely suggest working on some sort of test suite. This
can be extremely daunting if you don't know where to start, "Working
Effectively with Legacy Code" is a great book for dealing with adding test
cases to super shitty legacy code. It'll walk you through learning how to test
(if needed), and how to refactor to make code easier to test.

GL! Hit me up if you need anything else.

------
lovelearning
"Every single line of code I add to codebase, creates lots of bugs/crashes"? I
feel you are either exaggerating the damage you think you are doing, or the
system itself is really messed up. Is it a legacy system? Does it have too
much technical debt? See if you can find a systemic solution for those
bugs/crashes. More unit tests, more automated tests, better simulators,
something... There is always some systemic improvements possible with any
system.

If it's deadline pressure related, then you may have to try to convince your
management that extending a deadline to deliver tested code is better than
sticking to those deadlines - which are usually artificial and heavily
underestimated anyway - only to create extra unwanted work for everybody.

------
jonny_storm
I'm a freelance consultant, and I know all to well the danger burnout
represents.

I don't know whether being salaried still confers the level of support it once
did, but admitting your situation to management (if it's not unwise) and
leaning on coworkers may be the best way to gain relief.

There is a kind of grace in yielding completely to the forces that drove you
to your breaking point and acknowledging that mastery over your circumstances
is not total. Relieving yourself of the burden, if only a short while, helps
immensely, but it needs to be the whole burden and not just a part. In my
experience, anything short of this only prolongs the suffering.

Much has already been said that I agree with, and so I offer my support and
wish you well.

------
nom
Start working fewer hours or even take some time off if you can. If the
management at your workplace is not completely broken they will understand
that you can't continue this way - a broken employee is of no value to the
company. If you don't stop, it most likely won't get better, fixing yourself
must have the highest priority now above all else.

You might feel that it's impossible right now, but that's not true. Once you
break the loop, things will look completely different.

I wish you the best.

------
EmptyMoon
> I just look at the screen and do not know what to do next.

When I encounter this situation I try to remember that someone has probably
solved the same (or a very similar) issue before. There are enormous amounts
of open source code out there that might give you some inspiration. Take 5
minutes to sit back and search for inspiration from similar work. Don't
blindly copy-paste, but understand how the author solved the problem and you
in turn will have some ideas for solving your own.

------
mackdaddysly
I've been there, I view it as a motivation problem.

1) I'd definitely advocate exercise, nutrition and a break from the "mundane-
ness" of your day-to-day grind.

2) Taking a scenic vacation would also be ideal.

3) Focusing on other pursuits (i.e. building a side-project, teaching your
kids something new, etc.) will also give your brain the ability to recover
quickly.

Often, I feel like burnout is inevitable but you can limit the refractory
period if you're disciplined.

------
saluki
Try taking a 3 day weekend to recharge.

Then scale back your work to 50 hours per week. Make your work time really
focused to get as much quality work completed during your regular work hours.

Test your code prior to committing to the code base.

How much experience do you have? Can you snag a mentor at work? Is pair
programming an option?

Try to recharge and get focussed, try slowly reducing your work hours.

~~~
cauterized
Don't scale back to 50 hours. You'll stay burnt out. Scale back to 40 and
stick to it. You'll be much more productive.

And take a week (preferably two) to recharge, not a long weekend. You need to
get your brain completely out of work and get it used to being there.

Then spend at least a few hours of your 40 on a regular basis thinking not
about your work but about HOW you work. What would improve your code quality?
Automated tests? More time spent thinking? A better environment for focus?
Then fix the problems you identify.

------
Rekaiden
If you're working 60 hrs/week programming, you do not have a great job. If
every line adds lots of problems but no one can help you figure out what to do
next, you do not have a great job.

Work fewer hours. You won't even be getting less work done (or do you need
overtime for some financial disaster?).

Track everything that needs to get done.

------
gerbilly
It's hard to say without more details:

\- Are you experiencing a lot of stress at work or at home?

\- Are 60hrs/week the norm at your workplace?

\- Are you sleeping 8hours a day? Has you sleep changed (getting either more
or less sleep than usual)

\- How is your diet? Are you eating hurried meals at your desk or sitting down
with colleagues or family?

\- Are you experiencing physical fatigue?

\- Do you have some close friends you can interact with regularly? (especially
outside of work)

My general advice would be to:

\- Take a 2 week vacation as soon as possible, and disconnect completely from
work during that period.

\- Reduce work hours to 40hrs/week

\- Spend time with friends or family, have a laugh.

\- Make sure you are getting enough sleep.

\- Exercise. If fatigued physically, keep to mild exercise like walking in
nature. Aerobic exercise is fine if not fatigued.

\- Disconnect from work evenings and weekends, no monitoring slack channels or
cellphones.

\- Reduce cellphone use to minimum to perform specific tasks.

------
SnacksOnAPlane
Honestly if I were you I'd probably go for a long camping trip, like for a
week or two. Or failing that, a vacation to some natural beautiful place.

Then cut down your hours. 40 hours a week is fine, and if someone tells you
otherwise then explain to them that you're getting burned out and they'll get
better productivity out of you if you work fewer hours.

Other than that, you need exercise, lots of natural light, a good diet, and
lots of socialization opportunities.

------
joeclark77
Maybe do a little guerilla refactoring? If you're spending 55 hours per week
staring at the screen, then using some of those hours to work on something
unauthorized isn't really stealing or cheating your employer at all. Either
openly or in secret, come up with a rewritten or refactored version of your
product that doesn't have all the technical debt. Couldn't hurt!

~~~
kedean
It certainly could hurt. Most lead developers don't respond well to their
codebase being refactored by someone more junior without prior discussion. I
kind of agree with the sentiment, because all that refactoring has to be
reviewed before anything can be done with it.

------
daSn0wie
feeling the same way. just getting through a crazy release cycle. here's some
of my plans for 2017:

1\. i'm taking a vacation. seriously, we have them for a reason. if the
company culture isn't one that supports this, i'm going to start looking for a
new job.

2\. create more definitive boundaries for myself. if something is sent to me
mid sprint with an expectation to complete it, i'm going to push back and say
'no', or i'm going to ask for something of equivalent difficulty to be taken
off my stack.

3\. practice gratitude more. as engineers, we're lucky to have these well
paying jobs and families we can spend the money on.

4\. make time for myself. as parents it's easy to get caught up giving
everything to everyone else, but not taking time for myself. i'm going to take
time to focus on my health and fitness again.

5\. make time for my friends. focusing on work and family isn't enough, there
needs to be time with a community of friends.

------
kwhitefoot
First thing is to stop working 60 hours a week. Then when actually working
work slower and focus only on the minimum that needs to be done. I've recently
had some somewhat similar experiences and am quite certain that working harder
is not any part of the solution.

------
apercu
Eat right, sleep more, try to get some exercise. If you drink, drink less. You
will feel better.

------
kenshi
\- Take a holiday. Get away from work for awhile. \- Dont think about code
when you are away from work. \- See if you can pair with someone at work, or
find someone to collaborate with (whiteboard sessions etc).

------
Bino
What about trying to hire people below or beside you, while trying to step up
into management but keep coding when it's fun and rewarding?

~~~
tuyguntn
Our team is small, less than 20 people, I cannot go to management at this
stage

------
omouse
highly recommend checking this site out:
[https://osmihelp.org/](https://osmihelp.org/)

and there's a forum devpressed.com I think is the address, the corporate
firewall won't let me go to it for some reason though.

~~~
romanovcode
>devpressed.com I think is the address, the corporate firewall won't let me go
to it for some reason though.

Oh sweet irony.

------
grizzles
Take a holiday. Get a dog. Work less. Exercise more.

~~~
saddestcatever
Make sure to work less, BEFORE getting a dog. Gotta make sure you can take
care of yourself and your family before taking on the care of another living
being.

Alternatively - Find friend's/neighbor's dogs that you can walk / help take
care of.

------
xchip
What made you get burnt out? Are you bored?

~~~
tuyguntn
probably too many failures took my motivation to work

------
rpeden
As others have mentioned, it will be difficult to work your way out of this if
you're working more than 60 hours a week.

I've seen quite a few employers who have health insurance that covers stress
leave. You might qualify, since what you're experiencing is often the result
of long term chronic stress.

How amenable your employer would be to this is another question - if they've
seen what you're capable of,and they know how difficult it is to find a
capable developer and bring them up to speed on the company's product, they
might be open to giving you a month to recharge.

Even if it's not covered by insurance, perhaps an unpaid month off is
something you could negotiate? Again, it's very dependent on the employer.
I've seen it work, though - and in most cases, the employee almost didn't ask
because they'd convinced themselves it would be impossible, but the employer
didn't see it as a big deal.

I've been in the position you're in - where you're just staring at the screen,
unsure of what to do next. I found it helpful to take steps to restore my
creative abilities - I'd lost touch with them after spending years just
focusing on code. Being great at writing code is useful when you know what to
do, but all the programming skill in the world doesn't help when you can't
envision _what_ to do next.

I found _The Artist 's Way_[1] helpful here. Some people like it, others
don't. I suggest reading some reviews on Goodreads ahead of time to develop an
understanding of whether or not it would be a good book for you. A newer book
along the same lines with a slightly different approach is _Let the Elephants
Run_ [2].

At the end of the day, your approach to getting past burnout is going to be a
personal one. Things that have worked for others may or may not work for you.
Keep in mind that many of us have been where you are, and we've been able to
work through it and become productive again. You can (and will), too.

Just remember that you didn't get into your current state over the course of a
few days; it's been a long, slow grind that has worn you down over the course
of years. That doesn't mean it'll take you years to get better, but it _does_
probably mean it would be helpful to treat this as a recovery process that
will start small and show progressive gains over time.

(Amazon links, but no affiliate codes or anything dodgy like that (: )
[1][https://www.amazon.com/Artists-Way-25th-Anniversary-
ebook/dp...](https://www.amazon.com/Artists-Way-25th-Anniversary-
ebook/dp/B006H19H3M/) [2][https://www.amazon.com/Let-Elephants-Run-Creativity-
Everythi...](https://www.amazon.com/Let-Elephants-Run-Creativity-Everything-
ebook/dp/B00QL414RW)

------
shireboy
me too.

