

Oracle and Apple Announce OpenJDK Project for Mac OS X - cstuder
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/11/12openjdk.html

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archgrove
Almost as important is the announcement that the current Apple JDK, 1.6, will
still ship in Lion. Given the release cycle of Java 7, that's a big relief to
Java users and given the HN crowd, budding Android developers. Moreover, it
seems to quash the (ridiculous) rumours that OS X Lion will end up being some
locked down antithesis of previous versions of OS X.

~~~
swannodette

      > that's a big relief to Java users and given the 
        HN crowd, budding Android developers
    

And don't forget the Clojure, Scala, JRuby, Groovy, Jython, Mirah et al users
;)

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pluies
This is off-topic, but I'm amazed by the descriptions at the end of TFA (I
know, I know, it's a press release, but still...)

 _Oracle is the world’s most complete, open and integrated business software
and hardware systems company. (...)_

Let's grant integrated and complete, but definitely not "open". Though this is
dwarfed by Apple's incredible self-praise:

 _Apple designs Macs, the best personal computers in the world, along with OS
X, iLife, iWork, and professional software. Apple leads the digital music
revolution with its iPods and iTunes online store. Apple is reinventing the
mobile phone with its revolutionary iPhone and App Store, and has recently
introduced its magical iPad which is defining the future of mobile media and
computing devices._

Woah there cowboy! A bit of humility maybe?

~~~
tertius
I'm no fanboy, believe me. But most of that is pretty accurate.

~~~
kevindication
The iPad is magical?

~~~
larsberg
Indeed. And seemingly animate as well, since it "is defining the future of
mobile media and computing devices." Would've thought that was the folks
making and using them, but hey, I'm not the one wearing the turtlenecks.

(And yes, I own an iPad. But probably not the one that is going around
defining things. Other than words. With a dictionary app.)

~~~
apl
It's an absolutely acceptable use of the verb "define." There's nothing about
it that requires an animate subject.

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samps
This bit is hilarious:

 _The best way for our users to always have the most up to date and secure
version of Java will be to get it directly from Oracle._

Contrast that with a recent quote from Bill Evans:

 _We're happy to continue to support Flash on the Mac, and the best way for
users to always have the most up to date and secure version is to download it
directly from Adobe._

It's like they're just toying with the tech press.

~~~
chc
I don't see any contrast. How is the fact that Apple takes a consistent stance
toward third-party platforms "toying with the tech press"?

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rbanffy
So... Is this good or bad?

I know Oracle is giving its back (not to say finger) to the Apache Foundation,
but OpenJDK is a GPL-licensed version of the Java stack. Why is it bad (as in
why so many complain) that Apple, Oracle and IBM cluster around OpenJDK? Why
is the GPL not good enough?

~~~
ig1
It's not "clean", only JRE that have passed the TCK (Java Compatibility Kit)
get the patent waiver, if you modify the JRE and don't get it re-certified
then you lose the patent protection. And to get it certified you have to agree
to a restrictive licence from Oracle. Sun promised Apache to make the TCK
available under an open licence but this never happened.

IBM was previously putting pressure on Sun/Oracle to make the TCK available
under the open licence to Apache that they had promised, since IBM have
switched to OpenJDK, it removes that pressure and makes Java much more closed.

~~~
rbanffy
> only JRE that have passed the TCK (Java Compatibility Kit) get the patent
> waiver,

No. That's not true. As long as your code is derived from OpenJDK (and
unavoidably licensed under GPL), you are protected from patent lawsuits from
Oracle (for technology contributed to OpenJDK). What it doesn't protect you
from is trademark issues if you claim whatever thing you have is Java. You can
say "pretty much compatible with that famous VM invented by Sun(TM)" and you
are clear.

> And to get it certified you have to agree to a restrictive licence from
> Oracle

Again, the GPL states you can use OpenJDK for whatever you want. If you decide
to run a nuclear reactor with it, you are free to do so (as only the Oracle
JDK is licensed under such restrictive terms)

> Sun promised Apache to make the TCK available under an open licence but this
> never happened.

I understand this is the core of the problem. What is not clear is how this
adversely affects users.

> since IBM have switched to OpenJDK, it removes that pressure and makes Java
> much more closed.

We still have OpenJDK licensed under GPL. How's that closed?

~~~
va_coder
>"What it doesn't protect you from is trademark issues if you claim whatever
thing you have is Java."

There's more to it than that. If I call it Dalvik, like Google did, why would
I get a lawsuit?

Edit: I have to say I don't think I even understand what open source means
anymore. If I release an open source product, but then say you can only make
modifications and sell it if you pass my tests (which I don't make freely
available), it's not really open right?

~~~
rbanffy
> If I release an open source product, but then say you can only make
> modifications and sell it if you pass my tests (which I don't make freely
> available), it's not really open right?

I believe your restriction on making derived works conflicts with just about
every free and open-source license out there. What Sun did and Oracle does
prohibit you from doing is calling something that doesn't pass the non-freely-
available TCK by the name Java or implying it's Java-compatible.

As for Dalvik, it's not derived from a project Oracle contributed the said
patents. In this way, Dalvik is not protected agains Oracle's lawyers.

~~~
va_coder
I think reversing a linked-list using recursion is a walk in the park compared
to trying to understand patent/trademark law for software.

------
vdm
Blog post from Oracle's Henrik Ståhl, responsible for product strategy in the
Java Platform Group, with a little more detail and comments.

[http://blogs.oracle.com/henrik/2010/11/oracle_and_apple_anno...](http://blogs.oracle.com/henrik/2010/11/oracle_and_apple_announce_openjdk_project_for_osx.html)

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nwjsmith
I'm itching to take a look at Apple's "foundation for a new graphical client"

~~~
Nitramp
I wonder why they don't just release their existing AWT/Swing adaptations?

Either they are afraid of people using the Mac OS style on Windows, or that by
open sourcing the style, they loose their copyright to it, or the code is such
as mess that they'd rather not release it into the open.

~~~
irons
How many years-old projects with deep hooks into a proprietary OS, written
with no intention of ever being open sourced, would or could be opened on any
reasonable timeframe? Any precedents spring to mind?

~~~
lr
WebObjects...? And still not open. But perhaps not the precedent you were
looking for...

~~~
chc
I don't think WebObjects has a lot of internal system hooks, does it?

------
bradshaw1965
This thread breaks the really admirable hacker news quality of not giving in
to snark.

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ivanmantova
This oughta help stop the FUD.

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mtinkerhess
Does this mean there's some chance you'll be able to use Java for Mac App
Store apps?

~~~
ianlevesque
No they state right in the Mac App Store guidelines that you cannot.

~~~
markkanof
Apple has certainly back-pedaled on App Store guidelines before. Lately they
seem to start with the most restrictive set of guidelines to set a precedent
and then ease things as they see fit. It's always easier to start strict and
then relax over time, than it is to go the other way. Especially when the
topic is programming languages/frameworks where over time a large code base
can be built up.

Perhaps now that Java will not be considered deprecated from the platform, it
will be allowed for us in App Store applications.

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sudonim
The way people describe themselves in press releases is ridiculous:

"Oracle is the world’s most complete, open and integrated business software
and hardware systems company. For more information about Oracle, please visit
our Web site at www.oracle.com.

Apple designs Macs, the best personal computers in the world, along with OS X,
iLife, iWork, and professional software. Apple leads the digital music
revolution with its iPods and iTunes online store. Apple is reinventing the
mobile phone with its revolutionary iPhone and App Store, and has recently
introduced its magical iPad which is defining the future of mobile media and
computing devices."

------
riobard
“…the foundation for a new graphical client”

Cocoa??

~~~
dekz
"we will be adding pieces and parts of our Java SE 6 implementation to the
public project, and will cut over from using an X11-based AWT to a Cocoa
NSEvent-based one with a new OpenGL-backed graphics layer."

[http://lists.apple.com/archives/Java-
dev/2010/Nov/msg00104.h...](http://lists.apple.com/archives/Java-
dev/2010/Nov/msg00104.html)

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yakisoft
This is really Oracle's news rather than Apple's.

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
It's actually a more important announcement for Apple though in light of their
stopping development of their own JVM.

This allows them to still be behind it without having to actually do the work.

~~~
yoden
If you're following the apple-java mailing list, you'll see this isn't the
(supposedly) the plan. They're contributing eAWT and eIO to openJDK, plus
assisting in writing a new OpenGL based Swing backend and Swing lightweight
placeholders for AWT components.

To quote Mike Swingler (Apple java engineering): "Cheers all, we look forward
to working with you in public!"

Sounds like the plan is to continue Apple's work as part of a respected open
source project. Compared to developing in secret like they have been, what's
not to like about that?

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Autre
Though I'm glad for this desicion, I can't help but wonder: what's in it for
oracle? The puny 5% of desktops running mac os?

~~~
silvestrov
Money. They're in for the money.

a) Even if it is only 5%, it is almost pure profit for Oracle. Many big
companies would like to expand 5% for almost free.

b) The decision maker might run mac. No mac support, no sales. (One of my
customers is like that). This is similar to the "American’s with Disabilities
Act" which requires accesibility even though less than 5% of the users are
disabled.

c) 5% is the average. Many companies aren't average, e.g. universities and
research based companies.

~~~
archgrove
Your point (c) is the most important, in my opinion. I work in computing
theory research at a major UK university, and well over 50% of the desktops I
see used are Macs, and about 80% of the laptops. Many of our undergraduates
also use Macs. A working Java implementation is quite important for this area
- both for Apple, to ensure we keep buying them and Oracle, to stop people
just saying "Well, we don't use _that_ much Java anymore, let's just drop it".

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haribilalic
I'm glad that they're not throwing everything away. I wonder if this will
provide any benefit to the Linux OpenJDK.

~~~
Torn
If based on Cocoa, with more closed-source hooks, then probably not.

~~~
yoden
It's to be based on OpenGL. So hopefully!

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BonoboBoner
Awesome, now I can get the new Air without fearing it wont run Scala.

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aita
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." - proverb

~~~
YooLi
"A penny saved is a penny earned." - proverb

------
chevas
I trust Google with my email more than facebook.

