
Wozniak: Innovative projects, not tests, should determine a student's grade - cwan
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9215637/DVR_box_is_dying_Woz_wisdom_and_other_cool_things_learned_at_SNW
======
pnathan
Education is hard. After working as a TA for freshmen for some semesters, I
categorized college classes after this fashion:

10% of students succeed, no matter what you do to them. Those seemed to be the
hacker types.

10% of students fail, no matter what you do for them(reasons range from
cheating to family deaths).

80% of students mark their boxes and do okay; better teaching helps them,
worse teaching harms them. They would correspond to the 8-5 workers, IMO.

At the heart of educational discussions sit some deep philosophical questions,
such as:

Nature or Nurture?

What handholding level is appropriate?

How much moral leadership is appropriate?

Education systems: simple knowledge or more?

Is education for the individual or for the society?

What expectations do you have for someone who graduates high school? College?

What does equality mean when people are different?

These are not simply answered questions. There is considerable nuance needed
to begin discussing them in any real-world situation.

A(The?) core issue relates to the human beings involved - to give a glossy
example: some people like being factory workers. Others hate it. What
education system handles this problem?

Another major issue is that the cycle time on a k-12 educational system is at
least 16 or so years (likely something more like 30 years). Failing fast is
problematic, and leaves human detritus...

I consider the US public educational system deeply flawed. I think that Woz's
ideas are worth investigating. There are a multiplicity of educational reform
ideas out there, and some work better than others. Woz's has the advantage
that he's actually taught, so it may have a better chance than others of being
reality based instead of pure ideology. Also, he's a genius. :-)

~~~
stretchwithme
These are complex questions. Which means they probably should NOT be left to a
political process to decide. Parents and the students themselves (eventually)
should decide.

Will some make mistakes and fail? Yep. But that's better than the entire
system being hobbled, which is our current situation.

We have a tendency of trying to take over everyone's decision just because
some suck at making decisions. We seem to want people to think they are like
everyone else rather than experiencing consequences and learning from
feedback.

I watched Waiting For Superman the other night and apparently this is the
exact same problem that is preventing the public schools from getting and
developing the great teachers that great teaching requires. The unions want us
to think all teachers are the same and do whatever they can to stop bad
teachers from being fired.

Anyone concerned about the quality of education should check out this movie.

------
fourk
I went to a college that seemed to follow this belief. Sarah Lawrence College,
in NY, lets you take 3 classes a semester, where half of your credit for each
class comes from a semester long project that relates at least tangentially to
the course subject. I ended up dropping out after 2.5 years to move to SF, but
I don't think I would have lasted that long if not for the awesome projects I
got to work on.

As examples of the type of I did for my CS-related courses: for Computer
Science: An Accelerated Introduction (Python), I made an app that parses an
iTunes XML dump, hits Last.fm's API for additional info on each track and
artist, and uses that data to generate playlists. For Data Structures, I built
a 3d printer for the college that uses Java firmware. For Robotics, I
implemented a Neural Network-based bot that predicted opponents moves in low-
limit Texas Hold Em poker. For another class, I wrote a bot for Eve Online
that would perform margin trading.

These projects I found to be more valuable to me once I had started my career
than much of the time spent in the classroom.

~~~
atamyrat
That sounds like my dream hacker college. As a drop-out myself, I am thinking
of going back to school sometime in the future, and wondering if SLC might be
right place for me.

If you don't mind me asking, why did you drop out? Were there anything wrong
with the school/system that made you move to SF without finishing your degree,
or was it only for personal reasons?

Would really appreciate if you could share your overall experience at SLC.

~~~
fourk
There were a number of factors involved in my decision to drop out. At the
root were family/financial issues, although these were not dire enough that I
was forced, per se, to drop out. At the end of the day it came down to the
school's limitations on how much CS I could learn. The school is very small
(1300 undergrads), with very few of the students interested in pursuing CS in
any real depth. I have only great things to say about the two professors in
the department, but due to lack of student interest in the programs, there are
few advanced classes available. Looking at the 2010-2011 Course Catalog
([http://www.slc.edu/undergraduate/study/science-
mathematics/c...](http://www.slc.edu/undergraduate/study/science-
mathematics/computer-science/courses.html)), there are only two CS courses
available (one for each semester) which require the student to have some
prerequisite experience/knowledge (Databases and Robotics).

The other limitation you're faced with are the credit caps. SLC is a liberal
arts school where, regardless of what you study, you can only receive a
Bachelor of Arts degree. They cap you at 80 credits in Science/Mathematics,
with a maximum of 50 of those coming from Computer Science courses. At the
time I dropped out, I had 40 CS credits and 50 Science/Math Credits. Presuming
I had stayed on for the additional year and a half to get a degree, I would
have been limited to taking only 10 of my remaining 45 credits in what I
genuinely wanted to be learning. Given the cost of the school (the most
expensive school in the US), I felt that I would be better off 1.5 years down
the line by getting paid to learn what I wanted to be learning, rather than
paying to learn things that I didn't, simply for the sake of a degree.

It's actually been 1.5 years since I made this decision, I would have
graduated next month, and I have absolutely no regrets about having made the
decision I did. I'd like to make a blog post sometime about everything that's
happened in the past year and a half. I've been considering finishing my
degree at some point because there are a few fundamentals courses that I
missed (Algorithms, Compilers, to name a few). I'm sort of torn at this point
between making the decision to do it continuing to work 9-5 for the next 2+
years while taking courses online to get a degree, or whether I'm better off
making the plunge back into an 70 hour a week startup lifestyle which leaves
no room for online edu. I'm unsure of which leaves me in a better position 2
years from now. Have any of you finished an education online while working?
Were you happy you did so?

------
michaelpinto
It should be noted that unlike so many of his tech peers that Woz spent some
time as an actual teacher after he achieved his fame and fortune.

~~~
roryokane
You mean “unlike so many of his tech peers with opinions on the education
system”, right? Because otherwise that fact is as irrelevant as the fact that
Woz has never been a policeman. Or is teaching especially related to tech in
some way I’m not seeing?

Edit: why the downvotes? I seriously don’t understand why the parent comment
is mentioning that apparently irrelevant fact; I’m not just being nitpicky.

~~~
pnathan
Unlike many of us who pee on the education system, Woz knows experientially
what he's talking about in regards to education, having been on both sides of
the podium.

So it's very relevant.

~~~
roryokane
Thanks for explaining. You’re saying it’s relevant because there are “many of
us who pee on the education system”. In other words, my clarification of “tech
peers” in michaelpinto’s comment as those “with opinions on the education
system” is exactly what he means.

Woz’s being a teacher only is relevant if you know that many tech people
disparage the education system. It seems my guess at a correction in my
previous comment was indeed what michaelpinto meant, which means that it
explains his comment to those who do not know this trait of tech people. Why,
since my comment contained useful information, was it downvoted? (I have no
idea if you, pnathan, downvoted me, but I am curious to hear from anyone who
can explain.)

~~~
JoshCole
No. The idea is that many people who propose changes to the education system
don't have much experience with it, but Woz is not one of those people. Who
would you take legal advice from: a lawyer or your neighbor? Who would you
trust slicing into your brain: a surgeon or some random Joe?

~~~
roryokane
I understood that from the beginning. I was never confused about why having
experience with teaching would allow one to better propose changes to the
education system. I agree that knowing that Woz has experience tells you
something useful about whether you can trust his ideas.

The only point I was ever confused about was why michaelpinto’s comment not
only praised Woz for having teaching experience but also disparaged his “tech
peers” for not having it, when I didn’t see a link between Woz’s tech peers
and education. (Now I see that the link is that apparently, his tech peers are
fond of attacking the education system.)

I see now that I hadn't made it clear enough which point I was confused about.

------
pgbovine
a 'project-centric' education might be great for hackers (i.e., everyone who
reads this website), but remember that not everybody wants to build stuff for
a living, and even for people who do want to 'build stuff', the kinds of
things they might want to build likely aren't as easy to get started with as
software.

what kinds of projects would you propose for kids who want to be lawyers?
doctors? hairstylists? law enforcement? military? basically anything _except_
for engineering?

~~~
erikpukinskis
> what kinds of projects would you propose for kids who want to be lawyers?

Briefs

> doctors?

Treatment plans

> hairstylists?

Haircuts

> law enforcement?

Investigative reports. Martial arts performances/fights. Volunteering.

> military?

Strategy/tactical reports. Meeting fitness goals. Engineering projects.
Volunteering at soup kitchens. Running logistical missions.

> basically anything except for engineering?

What the heck do you think the rest of the world is doing all day? Everyone
does projects. Work is work.

~~~
kingkawn
And what would you do to expose these same kids to other worlds and ideas so
that they don't end up as adults with tunnel vision?

~~~
erikpukinskis
Sorry, I don't understand the context of your question.

~~~
kingkawn
It sounds to some degree like we're advocating vocational education.

------
h5n1
In my opinion, it would be very difficult for a national educational system to
accurately grade creative projects like these, and even more difficult for
these to be standardized across school systems so that the grades could be
meaningful to colleges, employers, etc.

~~~
solson
That's exactly why shouldn't have a "national education system" or
standardization of schooling. We need education that fits the student not one
size fits all factory schooling. As for meaningful ways for colleges and
employers to measure candidates... how about meaningful innovative projects.
The last developer I hired completed a innovative project (on contract) for us
before we hired him. I would never hire off a resume and interview alone. I'd
ask the candidate to show me what he/she has created.

~~~
zappater
I don't know anything about the education system in USA but looking at the
numbers the university I am currently attending has to deal with every year
and the amount you have to deal with when hiring I can bet the difference in
size is quite big.

If we look at the university I attend, it currently has above 16000 students,
with I would assume an average time as student of 3 years. The program I
attend had more than 3000 applicants out of which 200 were selected. Not all
programs have that ratio but I would not find it strange if the average was a
ratio of 10:1. Using these numbers we thus have (16000/3)*10=~53000 students
applying each year. (I did a quick search and my numbers are surprisingly
correct.) The university has 3 weeks to make its selections.

Please tell me how to do that with your system.

------
sliverstorm
Grades are fundamentally supposed to measure what/how much a student has
learned. (though their success in this regard is debatable) I don't know that
success on innovative projects measures learning. It'd also be a real b*tch
for folks who are not innovative thinkers.

This is not to say it's an impossible idea, but we'd have to verify that
generally speaking, performing well on projects correlates to learning- either
that, or give up on the idea of grades representing learning.

------
chuhnk
I would like to go just a little OT here and say Steve Wozniak is truly a
genius and it was not until reading Founders At Work that I completely
understood how much so. His talents unquestionably span far beyond some mere
mortals like myself.

------
msutherl
I dropped out of engineering and did a fine arts degree for exactly this
reason.

------
marcamillion
The weirdest thing happened to me with regards to this story.

Yesterday I said to myself, that if I were to ever be a lecturer, I would want
a course structured more like real-life. I even sent an email to myself, to
remember to come back to it at the appropriate time.

This was the text of my email:

 _Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 6:27 AM subject: Ideas for designing a university course
mailed-by gmail.com

hide details 6:27 AM (19 hours ago)

This is for whenever I want to start lecturing.

Don't use tests or exams.

Use projects.

Both individual and team.

Encourage students to come and present their progress every week - ensuring
that I will rip them apart if they are wasting time._

\-- end of email ---

Definitely not comprehensive, but I have been wondering why the 20th century
educational system has failed as badly as it has. Not just in the US, but even
in Jamaica too. I think structuring it so that each student is accountable for
what they have done (project-wise) would produce much better results than
having them learn how to take a test.

Then I come here and see a top story from Woz basically saying the same thing.

This is just one of those moments, that might seem silly - but it's weird.

~~~
gintas
I read a course on Python for a semester, and I tried to use a similar
approach: relatively few tests, a minor project for warmup and a major project
(with emphasis on attendance & communication). I think it went fine, but it's
not as easy as it looks. In particular, students would "show up", but it's not
easy to motivate them to do more serious work.

------
sown
GOD YES

I totally want something like this in education. I have a learning disability.
I can't remember stuff so easily but I do love making things and that is how I
learn best.

College, as much as I loved it, was always this sisyphean treadmill of
quizzes, homeworks, and exams -- almost always covered in red. The cycle was,
do homeworks, think I did it right, get back bad marks. Re-do homework, hoping
I did it right. Take exams, fail exams because I couldn't tell if I did them
right with HWs. It's like Waterfall and Education put together.

One class I took, Systems Programming, was the most helpful because there were
no real tests or homeworks -- it was projects. It got my only A in college
from this course, mostly because of the MUD I wrote for the final project.
Other classes where this worked was English Lit, science labs but not the
accompanying courses (sort of), others I can't remember.

------
ivoflipse
This fits in somewhat with the earlier discussion about Scott Adams on How to
get real education (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2426459>).

Instead of learning students "to remember what art looked like just in case
anyone asked", they should learn skills that requires them to acquire
knowledge.

Sure a lot of education 'fakes' this by focusing on projects, but what useful
skills can you honestly acquire in 10 weeks when your attention has to be
divided over just as many courses?

------
covercash
My favorite speaker at TEDxPhilly talked about project based learning:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS2IPfWZQM4>

------
grimen
This is why you should take part on StudentCompetitions.com to show-n-prove
what you got instead of getting that grade everyone else got. Soon new
platforms will be rolled out. Without getting into details; imagine GitHub but
for everything - in competition-format. If it sounds like a bad idea I just
wasn't detailed enough. ;)

~~~
grimen
Sorry, here is the link: <http://studentcompetitions.com>

------
keyle
Backstage: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxVPLEgzk5I>

and as far as I know, his speech ?

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr0OkhCw4bA>

------
maxxxxx
I think the idea is good but such a system could probably be gamed easily. I
am sure students would start to pad their resumes with great sounding projects
without any substance.

~~~
grimen
That's why I mentined the competition site above - winning a competition
against hundredsthousands of other students is quite a substance - in the same
way no one can claim they built something that u had shared on your GitHub-
account with a timestamp and blogposts long before they claimed that. CVs got
~no substance for the record.

~~~
grimen
To clearify: I rather employ someone based on GitHub code than their CV/resume
that is filled with bullshit anyway.

------
stevenj
For the most part, I think Apple's products are wonderful.

And what Jobs & co. have done over the last 14 years or so has been absolutely
amazing.

But I think Apple would be even better with Woz.

------
Apocryphon
Having read a bunch of stories and comments on HN about education, I suddenly
have an urge to send my future kids to Montessori or Waldorf schools.

------
stretchwithme
Finding your passion is so important in life. It makes sense that you
shouldn't wait 12 years to begin.

~~~
navs
The wait can kill passion as is my case and I'm only 4 years in.

~~~
stretchwithme
You're 9 years old?

------
teyc
Hackers are by definition counter-culture and seeks wisdom in going against
crowd thinking. If there were no schools, hackers would go to school. If
schools taught projects, hackers would do rote learning.

All hackers urge the same thing: "Think Different"

