
Show HN: Fleetzen – “Uber for moving large items” - shettysr
https://fleetzen.com
======
rpcope1
I have some very serious doubts about this. Uber may be able to skirt the law
for transporting people, but if these drivers are acting as commercial
haulers, they really probably need both a CDL in the US, and their vehicles
need DOT numbers and the service to be registered as a freight broker, as well
as everything that comes with that turf. This is one of those things that
really is regulated for a good reason. If the DOT's treatment of other people
around here skirting around without DOT numbers moving freight commercially is
any indication, this probably won't (and shouldn't) end well.

~~~
tzs
I suspected similar, but did a bit of Googling, and to my surprise it appears
a CDL would not be required. The criteria for when you need a CDL seems to be
based on inherent characteristics of the vehicle (weight, number of passengers
it can carry, for example) rather than on what you do with it or whether or
not that is commercial.

Drivers just using ordinary SUVs and pickup trucks and vans appear, on first
Google, to be fine with an original drivers license.

------
cma
Are the individuals moving the things insured? Will they get worker's comp if
a refrigerator falls on them?

Mentions screening, driving record etc., but I didn't see anything about this
in a quick scan.

~~~
XorNot
Yeah where Uber have been skirting the law because issues usually don't arise
with passengers, this is going to plough straight into a whole bunch of them.

Load sizes, damage, loss, personal injury. This is going to be a problem very
quickly.

~~~
smt88
Not necessarily. Driving a regular sedan, you can easily smash into a person,
car full of people, or even a building and do $500k+ worth of damage.

If you have a few packages in your car, each worth a few hundred bucks, you're
not significantly more risky for the company underwriting your insurance
policy.

So I doubt that a commercial policy for parcel delivery is going to be much
more expensive than a personal policy. It's just that the driver would need to
get one.

Also, a company like Uber or Fleetzen would be able to keep it cheap by
insuring all of their drivers, who would be screened and immediately fired
upon having an accident.

When you have a personal policy and never get into an accident, your premiums
stay really low. It's when you get into an accident that they skyrocket
because people who get in accidents tend to account for a disproportionate
share of total accidents. Put another way, if you have never been in an
accident, you're unlikely to ever been in one.

Uber and Fleetzen would immediately remove accident-prone people from the risk
pool, which would keep the premiums down.

~~~
ProblemFactory
I haven't tried getting commercial transport insurance, but my gut feeling
based on moves and mailing items says that insurance claims in moving cargo
are _way_ more common than in moving passengers.

With passengers, the only real risk is a traffic accident, which are
reasonably rare.

With cargo, traffic accidents are still rare, but it is much more likely for
the movers to damage something while loading/unloading or when boxes shift in
transit. It's hard to accidentally damage a passenger, while it's easy to drop
a TV while carrying it down the stairs.

Perhaps these risks can be minimised if the owner is responsible for
loading/unloading and for safe packing of boxes in the truck.

------
tssva
Is Fleetzen registered in Washington and/or with the FCMSA as a freight broker
and compliant with all state and federal requirements for brokers?

Are your drivers properly registered and compliant with state and federal
requirements for household goods carriers?

If not, what is your rationale for believing Fleetzen and your drivers are
exempt from registering and complying with state and federal regulation of
carriers and carrier brokers?

~~~
rpcope1
This is probably another case of someone (ab)using "regulatory arbitrage" just
like Uber, but I think the DOT will clamp down way harder on this (as they
really should) if this is the case.

------
downandout
Not to be the cynical one of the bunch but...

1) Become Fleetzen driver in Atherton or Beverly Hills using stolen identity
(post my own Criagslist ad soliciting drivers for my fictional startup VanZen
asking candidates for all the info that Fleetzen asks for, then just forward
the info from an unlucky applicant to Fleetzen to get my driver credentials).

2) Wait for expensive item to be given to me, sell it, and profit.

Am I missing something here?

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
You're thinking too much.

Far easier to just break into an expensive house, grab jewelry, and fence it.
In and out in minutes, none of this potentially traceable internet crap.

~~~
downandout
That's pretty high risk, while being handed the item isn't. Also theft
(failing to deliver said given item to its intended destination) and burglary
(breaking in and stealing things) are two entirely different crimes, with
burglary carrying a much stiffer sentence in most states because of the
potential for violence. The point of my comment was that services like this
would be attractive to some criminals.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
You are still thinking too much!

I've known a bunch of let's say, less than savoury individuals. The average
criminal doesn't plan much, crime is mostly opportunistic. They aren't
typically thinking "this is theft vs. burglary and so I'll get a different
sentence." They simply just don't think about getting caught in the first
place and assume it won't happen.

The criminals who _do_ think about what they are doing will aim for much more
profitable behavior, such as targetting a number of homes or businesses all at
once.

------
matthewrudy
So I work for a startup in Hong Kong doing something like this. We're called
GoGoVan, and doing really well in the region

[http://gogovan.com.hk/en](http://gogovan.com.hk/en)

What's perhaps different is that with GoGoVan you can ride with your stuff.

(Which resolves some of your worries about security and trust)

We're currently thinking of building our next version in elixir.

And of course we're hiring!

~~~
Cyph0n
Elixir huh. Great language, but how did you end up choosing it?

~~~
matthewrudy
So we're a Ruby shop and the backend is _all Ruby_ right now.

But as the company has grown, it's become apparent that what we need to become
is a Global Soft-Realtime Logistics Platform.

We could scale with Microservices and Go (something like Hailo in the UK)

But actually, if our most important properties are real-time, and zero-
downtime, then Elixir and OTP seem like a great choice.

~~~
fapjacks
Interesting. Thanks for sharing a bit about your situation.

------
rdl
Not having insurance for this utterly terrifies me. I'm absolutely fine with
self-insuring the cost of the objects being moved (because you know what your
loss is going to be), but if the driver gets injured, or injures someone else,
ruh roh -- maybe your homeowners insurance will help?

Also, no idea what the actual parameters are on this. I fairly routinely move
>500 pound objects, and if the driver doesn't have the right load handling
equipment, it is vastly harder. Even a 100-200 pound load is a lot easier with
appliance dollies and straps and ramps.

------
USNetizen
Maybe it's just me, but I'm quite leery of using the services of a company
that doesn't have a physical address, let alone a phone number, listed on its
website. Those two things are dirt cheap nowadays - mailing addresses and
phone numbers. Call me paranoid, but I don't trust things like that. Just my
two cents.

~~~
ianlevesque
I'd take an email address that goes to someone who can help instead of a phone
number that goes to someone in a call center reading from a script any day.
And a mailing address? I can't remember the last time one was useful for
interacting with a company.

~~~
seanp2k2
I'm guessing it's more from the standpoint of "what address do we serve you
papers at".

~~~
USNetizen
That's a good part of it, yes. Without a service of process address, how can
anyone be certain this is a legitimate company?

It has little to do with customer support, and everything with being able to
feel like you're dealing with a real company and not someone who does this
part time from his/her basement. Especially for services like this one where
liability is an issue.

------
elwell
People don't want an option for tips. Then it will bother their conscience if
they don't.

~~~
macandcheese
Exactly - that's the point. Same reason Square / Grubhub / most other mobile
checkout options usually default to the 2nd lowest tip amount. You need to
psychologically be okay with being less generous to move it to 0. Most are too
guilt-ridden to move it to 0 so that the server / delivery driver still gets
some compensation.

~~~
shettysr
That is an interesting insight on the customer behavior. In our current design
we have set the default at 5% (mostly with an intention of providing a visual
hint of a tip in the bill and expecting customer to change) and are seeing lot
of customers don't change it to anything else most of the times. On the other
side we have seen that the customers, who decide to tip in cash, slide this to
0 and pay as high as 25% of the invoice at times.

~~~
pbreit
Please tell me you didn't really expect people to change the default!!???

------
eli
It might be me, but it took me a minute to see the link for what cities you
cover. You might want to make that more prominent and you should _definitely_
have an email signup form to alert me when you come to my area (DC). It's
worth it for the ability to track interest alone.

------
beNjiox
Pretty weird to see the exact same baseline than
[https://www.buddytruk.com/](https://www.buddytruk.com/)

------
__z
There was a story on HN about a month ago saying Texas was cracking down on
these illegal freight hauling startups.

------
dEnigma
The website gets an F on the ssllabs.com SSL Test:

[https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=fleetzen.com](https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=fleetzen.com)

~~~
skuhn
They're using the Amazon Linux AMI (2014.09 most likely). It might be the
default Apache config that ships with it, since it's super terrible. The F
could be easily fixed with a slightly revised cipher suite list, but it would
still be pretty low from all of the other problems.

------
tropchan
I think their is definitely a market for this. My question is, isn't Uber
doing this already & has much more sophisticated logistics infrastructure in
place? Uber Pool (future potential) = efficient pickup of parcels / deliver -
on-demand.

~~~
Russell91
Uber's only UI is their app. Their app will never be optimized for renting
trucks. Thus, fleetzen will have a permanent advantage here that will only
increase if reinforced with an advantage in terms of the availability of
drivers.

~~~
smt88
> _Uber 's only UI is their app. There app will never be optimized for renting
> trucks._

First of all, you're wrong. Uber also has an API, which is for another kind of
user, but it's still an interface that enables selected developers to access
all of their functionality.

Second, what makes you think Uber couldn't create a new app that connects to
the same backend in under a month? There is no such thing as "permanent
advantage" (or some companies would live forever), and there sure as hell is
no such thing as an advantage based on UI.

~~~
fapjacks
> _there sure as hell is no such thing as an advantage based on UI_

I agree with the first part of your post, but... I have quit all kinds of
services for a competitor because of a shitty UI. Now that being said, I think
having (and not being able to escape) a shitty UI is symptomatic of more
intrinsic problems. But there _is_ a business advantage.

------
monksy
How is that different from Dolly?

------
bdcravens
You screenshot shows tax - how is this calculated? Do service fees typically
require tax, or are you paying some sort of municipal fees? (Sales tax is only
applied to sales of products, correct?)

~~~
intelekshual
Some states tax both goods and services (ex. Hawaii, New Mexico, South
Dakota).

~~~
bdcravens
According to the site though the app is only live in Seattle.

------
dcre
Pretty sure _Uber_ is going to be the Uber for moving large items.

~~~
JoBrad
I happened to look for "uber moving Nashville" (my city) and it looks like
Uber has partnered with a company called Bellhops to do just that. So, yup,
they either do it directly or indirectly.

~~~
shettysr
We did look into that. Bellhops provides packing/moving personnel (mostly
students) but no vehicle. Think of them as professional apartment/house moving
helpers (they don't cal themselves movers by the way). You need to procure the
vehicle. Uber just enables the interaction between you and the bellhop.
Fleetzen will dispatch a helper plus pickup truck in real time to location of
your choice (think IKEA, Home Depot, Craigslist purchase etc.,)

------
danschumann
That refund policy though?

------
shettysr
Thanks for the lively discussions. I am the co-founder of fleetzen. We are a
two-person startup that went live about 4 weeks back and now we are in the
process of operationalizing it. Like many of you have mentioned we have a long
list of operational and technical challenges to consider and address and I
really appreciate you for the time and thoughts.

As a business we create value for three main constituents.

For customers – The core experience we want to deliver is that a driver/helper
with a vehicle is available at the pickup location in less than 30 minutes,
on-demand, regardless of the source of request (be it stores, Craigslist, an
estate sale, or an apartment etc.,) and we want to offer the service at a
competitive price. They no longer have to ask favors from their friends or
wait for days for the stores to deliver, or drive to rental places such as
U-Haul. It will be a “cab” like experience for moving stuff. It is convenient,
saves ton of time and less expensive than other alternatives.

For drivers – A 2nd or 3rd job, an opportunity to make some additional income
while doing some of the similar work that they used to do for free or as
favors in the past. They are not the cab drivers who wait around the block. We
do envision a world where, if we are successful in generating volume, they
might wait around the block which could cut down our time to arrival. But we
are long away from getting there.

Businesses - The direct effect of the above to the businesses and sellers is
that, goods clear the shop floors faster with little to no overhead to them
and probably increased sales.

Let me try to address some of the comments below.

CDL: As tzs mentioned our drivers do not need CDL to provide services.
Washington state DOL has a nice flowchart at
[http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/cdlrequired.html](http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/cdlrequired.html)
that can help you understand how we meet this requirement. We do not carry
super heavy goods and most of the items can be carried by two people (just
like you and your buddy would). Pickups are not designed to carry loads that
breaches this criteria.

Insurance: I cannot probably cover all the aspects of this subject here. We
are in the process of procuring insurance for the Cargo that our drivers carry
and it will meet or beat the state requirements. As some of you have mentioned
the damage to the goods is likely and we will be able to address it. What
separates us from likes of Uber in terms of liability is that we do not let
the customers ride with the drivers. If we did, it will put us in a whole
different category of transport (a taxi) and liability exposure. Basically we
do not expose customers to any accidents on the road. For these reasons we are
less risky from insurance company stand point.

Trust: Chance of drivers stealing customer’s stuff is highly unlikely. The
drivers go though a rigorous background check (criminal plus driving history)
and we ensure that there is nothing in their past that could be damaging to
the customers or to fleetzen as a brand. They are as trustworthy as any
outsourced help you hire. In addition we review the driver performance on a
regular basis.

Permits/registration etc.,: Fleetzen, in it’s current form, is a “buddy with
the truck” concept. The drivers are not movers per se. They do not provide any
packing services etc.,. When customer books the service, they get a vehicle
and one driver/helper. We are relying on the requirements listed at
[http://app.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=480-15-181](http://app.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=480-15-181)
that exempts them from needing a household goods permit. It is essentially a
customer assisted move. That is one way we are able to provide a great
experience at a competitive price. We have business license to operate in
Washington and we are Delaware corporation.

About Uber: Never even for once we think that Uber cannot roll-out something
similar to fleetzen and crush us. They have the resources (financial and
technical :)). They have an incredible infrastructure that can reach a
customer in matter of 5 minutes and that is enabling them to unlock plethora
of customer scenarios. Most of their “non-car” based offerings (ice cream
trucks, mariachi bands, pets etc.,) have all been delivered through
partnerships. The closest they have come to moving is when they partnered with
Bellhops, who only provide muscles for your moving needs. As far as we know
the market for large item delivery using an Uber like model is still in it’s
early stages with few other players including us are trying to solve.

Technical recommendations: Thanks for the suggestions on SSL, email, tips. We
will look into it.

Contacts: We are a registered Delaware corp with address at 701 5th Ave, STE
4200 Seattle. Our toll free number is 1-844-329-3299

