
Japan's Universities Are Failing - Arkaad
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/japan/2016-10-31/japan-gets-schooled
======
flor1s
Being a PhD student in Japan (and a non-native English speaker) I agree with
many points in the article. Some frustrating things about my own experience:

\- In my lab, all of the papers written by Japanese students have to be
checked by foreign students (which are mostly non-native speakers). The
quality of the writing is typically less than mediocre, with a few exceptions.

\- We have a seminar every week in which the Japanese students talk in
Japanese and will get questions only by the Japanese, while the foreign
students present in English and will only get questions from the other foreign
students. The environment is a bit toxic.

\- I have a monthly meeting of 30 minutes with my supervisor (should be bi-
weekly but he almost never has time for it). Those meetings are usually about
which journal or conference we should submit an article to, seldom and barely
scratching the surface of what my research is about.

\- Teachers who give their classes in English will get many complaints from
Japanese students. In the end most of them switch (back) to teaching in
Japanese again.

\- This year I will probably have to go to some sort of job hunting myself,
but I'm mostly considering jobs in academia because of the job hunting process
for companies seems inhumane. I have heard of cases where students join a
company and end up working on projects not remotely related to their research
interests.

I often blame myself for not speaking enough Japanese and because of that
missing opportunities, but at the same time I am of the opinion that education
on the masters and PhD level should be given in English because that seems to
be the de facto language of international academia.

~~~
a_bonobo
>I have heard of cases where students join a company and end up working on
projects not remotely related to their research interests.

This is normal worldwide - they hire you for your problem-solving skills, not
for your tiny research niche

~~~
aerioux
I would have to disagree with "normal"\-- many phd students at top (CS) univs
in Europe and US can get hired for research-relevant work - e.g. off the top
of my head Goog Research, MSR, FAIR, Uber, Snapchat, AirBnB hire a non-trivial
# of Phd researchers for relevant fields -- that said some fields are better
fits, e.g. a typical exmaple being stochastic modeling tends to align well /w
finance.

~~~
xiaoma
Then apply to those companies. If they're willing to apply for visas for
Indian and Chinese grads, there's no reason they'd have a problem doing the
same for Japanese grads.

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euske
I graduated one of the top schools in Japan and went to the US to get a PhD.
(But somehow I got patriotic and came back to Japan after that, don't judge
me.) In many ways, Japan feels like a gridlocked country. And people
(especially young) already know it but can't do anything about it. I'll point
out that the heart of the problem is its lifetime employment system, which the
entire economy and social system of Japan is optimized for and depending upon.

So you wanna change schools? You have to change the system and reposition many
teachers, but nope, it's not allowed. Teachers are well protected by the
Japanese labor law and they can't do any other job (and from what I saw
they're particularly inflexible work force). You want more diverse students?
Good luck with finding a good career path for them, because under the lifetime
employment system you can get good choices only when you're young, and you
have to stay in the same company for the rest of your life. Again, many people
assume that way and many financial systems in Japan are built upon this
assumption. And finally, you want many more competitive researchers? Nooo,
because there are too many mediocre researchers that have tenure already. You
can't compete with them. Again, blame the lifetime employment system.

I, too, honestly don't know what's a good exit path from this. Personally I
think having more immigrants is a way to go, but then there's this right-wing
people and Trumpism going rampage right now. Sigh.

~~~
fl0wenol
I think the way you fix a situation like this is to create new, informal
institutions. Young people have to feel empowered and have pride in building
small communities, and by extension, small businesses. There will always be
pressure from others to stop screwing around in the dirt, but you have to
preserve and have the desire to want to be living with uncertainty. Over
decades I think you can chip away at the fossilized foundations of old
institutions (big government, big business, the schools that feed into it and
the cultural lockdown they have on young people)

------
tsul
I’ve always heard that uni is a bit of a formality in Japan, and that most
career-minded individuals expect to be trained and mentored on the job when
they enter the corporate world.

Not sure how true that is or if the article touches on that, since it’s
paywalled.

~~~
csa
Japanese universities are relatively easy to graduate from (frankly, this is
true for many Ivy-league departments as well), but that doesn't mean people
don't try.

First, many folks, especially at the better schools, are genuinely interested
in the topics they are studying. As such, they will go above and beyond in
some or all of their classes.

Second, in many programs, the professors have contacts in the field that can
lead to premium jobs. These are often the most-adored professor in a given
department -- mainly because they add a human side to the sometimes bookish
disposition of many of the professors... and they make it rain. The student
know who these professors are via their senpais, and they go way out of their
way to make a good impression in those professors classes. This effort usually
reaps huge dividends for talented students.

~~~
tsul
Interesting—thanks for your in-depth perspective.

I didn’t mean to imply that nobody tries in Japanese university, of course,
especially since I have no first-hand experience. I’d just heard that the
culture is, in general, less rigorous than in Western universities.

The point about networking through professors is really interesting to me.
Alongside other replies about the intensity of the job hunt for Japanese
students, it does sound like the system is geared as a bit of a ‘hiring
pipeline’—to an extent at least.

Note: I skipped out on attending university altogether, so I don’t have a
strong sense for the extent to which Western universities differ in these
regards.

~~~
pizzetta
Someone told me that the hard part about universities in Japan is getting in.
Once you're in, you have to try to fail. Conversely, High School, while rote,
is hard. In that sense, it's a bit opposite of other places like the Us where
High School is not hard but typically University is hard.

~~~
csa
This is largely a misconception about Japanese high schools.

Most Japanese high schools are ridiculously easy to graduate from.

That said, most of the _competitive_ Japanese high schools -- that is, the
ones who send their students to the best schools -- require quite a bit of
work to graduate from. There is a reason for this.

High schools are divided into tracks in Japan via entrance exams, so the
competitive high schools get students who are largely on board with rigorous
study. Their goal is to crush the college entrance exam, and the best schools
are quite good at test prep (and often go beyond test prep into "proper"
learning of the topic). The students know they will have to work hard, and
they mostly do. I humbly suggest that the students in these high schools work
about as hard as high school students in the US who are trying to get into
highly competitive universities.

That said, most high schools in Japan are not terribly competitive to enter
and don't have high academic ambitions for their graduates (and that's totally
ok). These students often have a lot of fun in high school, much like American
high school students who are aiming at low competitive universities or no
university.

~~~
mikekchar
Yeah, I worked in a low level high school in Japan. People don't realise that
for every high level school (where students are virtually all prepping for
university entrance exams), there or 4 or 5 high schools that are prepping
students for trade schools and/or jobs.

Having said that, high level high schools in Japan have a bigger curriculum
than what I was familiar with (in Canada). They will cover quite a lot of the
stuff that you'd cover in first year university. However, I'll agree that it
probably isn't that much different than what students voluntarily cover if
they are trying to get into competitive universities in the US, for instance.

Finally, I'd like to echo that students in low level high schools in Japan
generally have a lot of fun. It was probably the best atmosphere of any place
I've ever worked. Obviously there are some students that are having problems,
but the vast majority really enjoy this time. You can see it on their faces --
smiling all day long.

I'm not planning on having kids, but if I were, I wouldn't hesitate to put
them into the Japanese school system. Personally, I love it. There are
advantages and disadvantages, but as long as the parents aren't pushing their
kids into places they don't want to go it offers a lot more opportunity, IMHO.

Just one last point, since it was raised above: employers _do_ spend a lot of
time training. I had a friend who graduated from a prestigious university as
an engineer. She went to work at a fibre optics company. She spent the first 2
years there building cables and studying. The company wanted to make sure that
she understood everything about the business from top to bottom. Now nearly 10
years later, she's managing an engineering group. Very different environment.

~~~
lovemenot
>> There are advantages and disadvantages, but as long as the parents aren't
pushing their kids into places they don't want to go it offers a lot more
opportunity, IMHO.

In practice, parents who would like their children to keep their options open,
struggle in the Japanese system. You have to decide from an early age to
either go for it and work like a dog, or to slack off and enjoy life until
entering the work-force but then having very clear limitations on your career.

One personal observation relevant to some HN folks concerns Kousen (technical
college). The competition to get accepted is only moderate while the quality
of education there is high, I feel. It's not the standard route, but it is
definitely worth considering for those who wish to pursue a STEM field.

------
mkaziz
I really don't see a way out for Japan that's not immigration. It might lead
to social upheaval, but it sounds like that kind of change is sorely needed. A
well executed immigration policy could inject fresh blood into that country.

~~~
DashRattlesnake
> I really don't see a way out for Japan that's not immigration.

That's a pretty small-minded and dogmatic statement; it basically amounts to
"copy US policy, it's the only way." At some point, someone in the world is
going to actually have to solve the problem of stagnant or declining
populations, without copping out and just importing new populations from
elsewhere.

~~~
akhilcacharya
Well, that "US way" has worked better than every other developed country in
that respect, why not adopt it?

~~~
doall
Because there are huge side effects by copying the "US way". If you want a
much smaller scale and a weaker version of the US then adopt it. That is
definitely not what the Japanese people want.

~~~
mkaziz
Right, and the current situation is one such consequence of that. Of course
they could try something else - they've been trying since the 90's from what I
understand, with mixed results at best.

------
teee
As an Asian and knowing many Japanese friends, I just said this report is
true. However not only universities in Japan, all the universities in asian
countries are facing structural problems in college education.

People treat college degrees like their passports/certificates to get higher
positions in society and better works. They are willing to study harder to
enter colleges, and then play for 4 years in university.

It's about cultural problems, especially bureaucracy. It exists in asian
blood. People would not like to face the truth, but obey the order. Maybe it's
originated from Prussian education system and chinese bureaucratic
system(former Roman Empire in Asian), and finally cause the failures of
education and creativity.

~~~
hobaak
As an Asian, it is true that most of the countries in Asia work hard to enter
college but in Korea, this is no longer true that they party in university.

Tightening job market drove students to study job-related certificates and
tests such as Test of English for International Communication (TOEIC). This is
so grueling for young generations with grow student debts.

Students often defer their graduations to appear fresh in the job market.
[http://thediplomat.com/2014/05/south-korean-students-
delayin...](http://thediplomat.com/2014/05/south-korean-students-delaying-
graduation/)

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
Why would the Japanese look to a London based publication for validation of
their rankings among Asian universities? This sort of thing is not an exact
science and it's a shame Asia (I know India does this a lot) continues to hold
the West (UK/USA specifically) as some great arbitrator and moderator of the
world when they may have their own vested interests about things - and of
course vice versa.

~~~
coolandsmartrr

      > London based
    

It's US based. Perhaps you're thinking of _The Economist_?

~~~
foota
"Uiversity of Tokyo lost its number one ranking, falling to number seven, in
the Asia university rankings published by the Times Higher Education of
London"

------
rootsudo
I applied to a university in Japan and got in.

Essentially it's hard to get in, once you in, you pass. Work culture in Japan
and school is a bit toxic.

------
lanevorockz
If Japanese universities are failing, how they are leaders in science?

~~~
hx87
Brilliant research universities can be terrible educators, and vice versa.

------
yammajr
Looks like an interesting article after the first couple of paragraphs, but
the paywall makes it hard to say really.

~~~
forbiddenlake
Click "Web" at the top, and click the non-Hacker News link

~~~
yammajr
Thanks for pointing that out, it's a useful feature, but that doesn't get
around the paywall here.

~~~
TorKlingberg
Try opening the 'web' link in a different browser, maybe in private mode. That
worked for me.

~~~
yammajr
No go on incognito, but switching browsers did it. Thanks

------
doall
One little-known fact is that to be accepted by todai is not that difficult
compared to be accepted by todai risan (the medical doctor course). About 3000
people enter todai every year but only 100 are accepted to risan. Recently as
a trend, almost all of the top students in the very top high school try to go
there and it is a problem which is considered a huge waste of intelligent
people in Japan. I have heard that one todai dropout took 10 years to be
accepted by todai risan. The trend continues for students entering other
medical doctor courses at other prestigious universities, such as Kyoto
University and so on.

------
shm224
According to the same survey by Times Higher Education, Harvard is #6 in US!
So why is Harvard in such decline? /s

As soon as their economy picks up, I bet that THE and others would start
praising the virtues of the Japanese education system again, regardless of any
changes (or no change) in education.

~~~
Animats
_As soon as their economy picks up..._

Japan had their real estate and stock market bubble in 1990. The Nikkei index
reached nearly 40,000. People in Japan speculated that Japan would pass the US
in GDP in a few years.

Then came the long crash.[1] The Nikkei index dropped all the way to 7000 by
2003. Then it recovered some, but crashed again in 2008. There's been
considerable recovery since; it's now around 20,000. But that's still half of
the peak.

(The US market is back above its all-time peak before the 2008 crash. It's
probably overinflated, but not as badly as before 2008.)

Japan was the first country to hit the "postindustrial wall", or "what are all
these people going to do"? I'd hoped they'd come up with a solution the US
could copy. But the best Japan has been able to come up with is heavy spending
on infrastructure to keep people busy.

[1]
[http://finance.yahoo.com/chart/%5En225?ltr=1#eyJtdWx0aUNvbG9...](http://finance.yahoo.com/chart/%5En225?ltr=1#eyJtdWx0aUNvbG9yTGluZSI6ZmFsc2UsImJvbGxpbmdlclVwcGVyQ29sb3IiOiIjZTIwMDgxIiwiYm9sbGluZ2VyTG93ZXJDb2xvciI6IiM5NTUyZmYiLCJtZmlMaW5lQ29sb3IiOiIjNDVlM2ZmIiwibWFjZERpdmVyZ2VuY2VDb2xvciI6IiNmZjdiMTIiLCJtYWNkTWFjZENvbG9yIjoiIzc4N2Q4MiIsIm1hY2RTaWduYWxDb2xvciI6IiMwMDAwMDAiLCJyc2lMaW5lQ29sb3IiOiIjZmZiNzAwIiwic3RvY2hLTGluZUNvbG9yIjoiI2ZmYjcwMCIsInN0b2NoRExpbmVDb2xvciI6IiM0NWUzZmYiLCJyYW5nZSI6Im1heCJ9)

~~~
stale2002
The problem of Japan is caused specifically because of its make work culture.

Jobs are focused on shoe face, NOT on producing value.

What matters is not how good you are it is how many years you have put into
the company working 80 hour weeks.

It is unsurprising to me that a culture not focused on producing value
wouldn't produce much value.

~~~
sbierwagen
Shoe face?

~~~
Brockenstein
You know, shoe face, the classic make work gambit where you employ people to
makes shoes with their faces because it's inefficient you have to employ a lot
of people to have any sort of production. It's pretty common in the East.

------
homme
I spent a thanksgiving back in junior year with a japanese student (along with
a jewish bro) in my american uni smoking chronic and covering led zepplin
guitar in between turkey eating. Japan needs to send more college students to
the US.

------
emmelaich
I suspect (and I read this somewhere) that all the huge investment in
infrastructure (dams, trains, highways) has not paid off.

And now they're stuck with the debt associated plus the ongoing cost of
maintenance.

------
ganfortran
Anything growing in current Japan except their age?

~~~
purple-again
I hear they dabble in video games...

------
saxonklaxon
Why should we need to attend universities? Apart from the inexplicit or hands-
on component of technical training, learning can be done via the web. Leaving
home and becoming independent can be rehearsed by travelling or taking a job
elsewhere. Finding a spouse can be done online. Credibility and commitment can
be measured by some combination of IQ testing and sitting outside the
employer's office (a la Fight Club). The idea that universities will help you
to think independently is untrue. They create conformity. Indeed, as
historical religious institutions, they were founded for this purpose.

