
Because it needs to be said - milesf
http://blogjustine.wordpress.com/2013/10/12/because-it-needs-to-be-said/
======
hawkharris
My ex-girlfriend wrote a blog post similar to this one, accusing me of sexual
assault. I volunteered to take a police polygraph test, hired a lawyer and
initiated a libel suit. Fortunately, I didn’t need to go further because she
suddenly changed my name & her story. But the experience was still stressful
and scary. Many commenters vilified me because they assumed her information
was true.

Prior to being falsely accused, I didn’t believe in false accusations. I
couldn’t believe that anyone would tell a lie so insulting to victims. I still
do believe that the vast majority of accusations are true, but I always
reserve judgement because I know how it feels to be vilified in a blog post.

I applaud the author for sharing her experiences. This post is eloquent and
courageous. Having said that, a blog post is not the right place to seek
justice. In fact, the information here may interfere with a trial. I encourage
her to delete this post and initiate a criminal trial in order to hold the
perpetrator accountable.

~~~
conformal
posting your personal account of someone's crimes against you in a blog is not
a fair or reasonable way to deal with what is clearly a very serious matter.
it sounds like what happened was awful and these types of incidents are common
in many predominantly male professions, e.g. law, finance.

i was recently seriously harassed and more-or-less sexually assaulted by an
acquaintance's wife at a wedding in a swimming pool. as a man, i doubt that
any police department would take me seriously if i wanted to press charges.
this does not mean that i am going to take to the internet and post my account
of it. nobody wins by doing this.

this trend of women posting their account of a sexual assault online is
alarming because of what hawkharris describes: it could be false and then is
plastered all over the net, irrevocably damaging the reputation of the
accused.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
"Women who are assaulted should keep quiet about it because I can't tell if
they're lying or not." Is that about right?

Instead of saying she shouldn't post because "it could be false," how about
you recognize that _she_ knows whether it's true or not? For God's sake, the
fact that some people are liars does not mean that truth-tellers should keep
their mouths shut.

~~~
malandrew
I don't know about you but I'm a believer in innocent until proven guilty. In
fact, I really don't care about the gender of the actors in this story at all.
Every story has three sides, my side, your side and the facts. Right now, we
have a blog post that describe a retroactive account of what happened to the
author a long time ago and all the misfortunes of their life since then,
attributed to that one incident long ago. This is hardly a balanced account.
We don't have the side of the counter-party to this incident nor do we have
eye witness accounts of what happened. So insofar as you, I and the rest of
the Internet are concerned, none of us have any business passing judgement on
the author, the counter-party or those present at the incident. As such I'd
say, that the author shouldn't post this publicly, unless they are open to and
comfortable with the idea that the counter-party and all others involved may
now post additional details about what happened that evening in an effort to
help us, the audience, ascertain the facts. That is hardly the path towards
psychological healing.

I for one am pretty certain that there are elements of truthiness and
untruthiness in the original posting. I'd expect similar elements of
truthiness and untruthiness in a rebuttal by the counter-party as well. Both
were drinking and both will be advocates of their recollection of what
happened. Such is the nature of points of view and interpretation of past
events

------
sgentle
I'm glad this is out there. It's a tragedy that it happened at all, but it
would be an even bigger tragedy if nobody else knew the consequences. I think
everyone experiences that moment sometimes where you think "is this okay?
should I say something?" And after you waver for a second, your decision
reinforces itself and you end up doing nothing at all. Maybe you can even
convince yourself that it was all okay in the end. After all, the consequences
are invisible. Well, not this time.

I found two other perspectives on the story:

[http://theotherzach.com/writes/2013/10/9/events](http://theotherzach.com/writes/2013/10/9/events)
[http://blog.matt-darby.com/essays/i-am-the-other-developer](http://blog.matt-
darby.com/essays/i-am-the-other-developer)

I'm particularly heartened by Zach's account. The police can prosecute
assaults, absolutely, but they can't stop them before they happen. The
community can. By setting clearer expectations of behaviour, recognising
potentially dangerous situations and taking steps to ameliorate the risk, and
by being willing to step in before anything goes off the rails, the community
can stop this from happening again.

And, thanks to Justine, maybe they will.

~~~
throwaway9848
Let's keep some perspective. A second ship in one week carrying desperate,
impoverished African migrants sunk of the coast of Italy yesterday. Many
drowned. That is a tragedy.

This is just one of those bad things that happens in life that one has to move
on from. While I agree in helping others, people need to help themselves.
Everything you wrote about the community needs to be done by the individual,
too. Also, one must not let their life go entirely off the rails in the face
of an adverse event.

~~~
dylangs1030
_Let 's keep some perspective. A second ship in one week carrying desperate,
impoverished African migrants sunk of the coast of Italy yesterday. Many
drowned. That is a tragedy._

You wrote this under a throwaway account, so I think you understand my point
before I make it, but I'll say it anyway.

A situation like this doesn't call for debates or intellectual analysis.
Winning debate points when the subject is sexual assault doesn't move the
topic forward, it just makes you look insensitive and begs a flame war to
begin.

I wrote a top-level comment stating this point already on this thread, but
it's very important this is understood. It's not your place to judge what
another human being's tragedy is. I'm not trying to white-knight you, it's
just something that really needs to sink in. You cannot minimize another
individual's experiences just because some distant collective suffers more
according to a standard of utilitarian rigor.

If you want to help, don't debate the point. This subject is too close to
heart for that to do anything but alienate people. Empathize and show support
instead. Send Justine a kind email if you find that agreeable.

 _This is just one of those bad things that happens in life that one has to
move on from. While I agree in helping others, people need to help themselves.
Everything you wrote about the community needs to be done by the individual,
too. Also, one must not let their life go entirely off the rails in the face
of an adverse event._

I don't know your personal history, but looking back on the most painful
experience in your life, would you say this in regards to yourself? No human
exists as an island. What you are saying is tantamount to blaming someone for
being inert when they're depressed, instead of treating it is something that
is out of their control to begin with.

~~~
throwaway9848
I wrote a longer response, but I can pare it down to this:

This is just one side to a situation that I have no first person knowledge of.

Even taking everything she wrote at face value, I think she has made decisions
that will make her own recovery more difficult than necessary.

Bad things happen to everyone. Often much worse than this. It is the nature of
life, and underscores just how little we all really control. What we do
control is how we handle ourselves in the face this adversity.

Language is always important. It is crystallized thought, and bad language
creates bad thinking.

------
ggreer
We, as a community, are simply incapable of discussing this subject
responsibly.[1] Similar stories have been posted before. Some people are
outraged at the incident. Others are outraged that the author publicized the
incident. Others question the author's account. Others are outraged at the
outrage of the second group and/or the skepticism of the third group. Et
cetera.

The ultimate result is this: Endless angry comments. Everyone feels rage. All
parties mentioned by name (and some unlucky enough to have the same name) wake
up to inboxes full of hate mail. Careers are harmed, sometimes permanently.

If you had never read this story, how would the world be different? You would
feel slightly happier, and you would have likely spent your time doing
something more pleasant. In other words: not different at all outside your own
mind.

Unless, of course, you actually _did something to help._ Even a token gesture
would be better than posting an angry comment. Send an email with some nice
words in it. Heck, maybe even do something in the real world to help. And
instead of jumping on the rage train and telling everyone how angry you are,
tell everyone what you did to try to make things better.

1\. To be fair, the same is true for almost all online communities.

Edit: It's been an hour since I wrote this comment. So far, nobody has
followed my suggestion and said how they've helped this situation. I guess
I'll be the first. I sent a short email to Justine. Hopefully her day is a
little better because of it.

~~~
milesf
Not true. There have been issues at conferences that have been talked about on
places like HN, and now many conferences are adopting anti-harassment
policies, like at the Cascadia Ruby Conference
[http://cascadiaruby.com/policies](http://cascadiaruby.com/policies)

It's a mess, yes, but change does happen.

There are many people who are very skilled at talking about tough issues like
this one who simply need to be given an opportunity to address the community.
I for one hope the Ruby community steps up and changes, for the better,
because of this one.

~~~
obstacle1
Lest we mention PyCon...

~~~
kingkilr
What about it?

~~~
fencepost
At a recent PyCon a couple of attendees made a weak joke about forking a
repository that came off as sexual humor (I don't know if it was intended that
way or not). Someone was offended by it and tweeted a picture of them rather
than approach the conference organizers. Things escalated from there.

As I recall it, by the end of everything, the jokesters had been asked to
leave the conference and subsequently lost their jobs, and the community
blowback after that resulted in the originally offended person also losing her
job because the controversy would have made it basically impossible for her to
act as a developer community liason.

There were no winners, but PyCon apparently does now make procedures for
handling sexual harassment, etc. much more clear in conference materials.

edit: though clearly my recollection was flawed in some ways - among other
things, only 2 lost jobs and I was incorrect about them being asked to leave
the conference.

~~~
kingkilr
This is inaccurate. The individuals making comments were not ejected from the
conference, they were informed that their words were having effects they might
not be intending, they apologized, and returned to the conference.

I can in no way speak for anyone's employer, but it's worth noting that only
one of the individuals lost their job.

I currently serve as the co-chair for the PyCon Program Committee, and as a
director of the Python Software Foundation.

~~~
fencepost
I think I'd already noted part of this (that there were 2 job losses not 3),
but Adria Richards' job certainly counts as part of the fallout from the whole
thing as well.

Thanks for what you do for Python.

~~~
jlgreco
Probably worth mentioning that Adria Richard's probably lost her job because
she dragged(drug?) her employer into the fray on twitter.

------
pg
I apologize to the world for this thread. There are clearly topics that an
open forum, or at least this one, can't be trusted with, and this seems to be
one of them.

We have some ideas for new moderation features that we hope will make comment
threads more civil. I don't know if they would have helped in this case
though.

The one thing that did work here is the flamewar detector. This story dropped
off the frontpage extra fast, after which the only people seeing this
discussion were people who sought it out.

~~~
chris_wot
I was one of those people. I apologise if I brought more heat than light.

~~~
britta
You did an admirable job of responding to piles of comments that needed
Consent 101.

(Civility isn't even the main problem here - so many of people's comments were
superficially civil but callous and misinformed. HN needs empathy, compassion,
willingness to listen. It's not impossible to shift culture - Metafilter has
improved a lot, but doing that required human effort from its leaders and not
just software.)

~~~
michaeldhopkins
I am a happy member and longtime reader of MetaFilter but I wouldn't look to
it as a positive example.

MetaFilter has several full-time moderators who, because they feel they need
to be doing something, are stifling discussion and deleting a lot of threads.
Many long-time, valuable members have left the site because of staff
decisions.

Meanwhile, a group of noisy, low-value users are mostly allowed to bully
others, mock people different than them and even write death threats from time
to time.

MetaFilter prides itself on being a place that knows all about Consent™ etc.
and maybe that is worth everything else, but it's not a place where people can
get together and have a civil discussion.

------
milesf
The assault was evil enough, but the vilification of Justine in the comments
by some makes my blood boil.

The best antidote to fight darkness is to bring it out into the light. Thank
you, Justine, for your ongoing courage to speak out. I cannot say I understand
what you're going through, but I'm sure there are (too many) others out there
who do. Surround yourself with friends and supporters who will stand with you.

You are not alone.

~~~
cegev
The comments are... odd. I can understand leaving comments open as an
illustration of the backlash that results from trying to talk about these
matters, but at some point, banning particular people makes sense: the
majority of the comments there are vile primarily because the majority of
comments have been made by one apparently obsessed person making utterly
ridiculous comments in a deranged tone.

I fear that the shock of those comments hides what I consider the more
important, problematic vilification going on in the comments, which is the
argument made by a few sane people that talking about this, rather than
keeping it a private matter, is not appropriate, and that Justine should have
stayed silent and only gone to the police. This is perhaps more harmful, as it
comes from people who aren't obviously deranged or trolling.

~~~
steveklabnik
Consider that the person who would be doing the banning is the victim, which
means that she would have to read all of those shitty comments, continually,
in order to determine who to ban.

~~~
stock_toaster
I cringed when I saw that comments were enabled _at all_ on that post.

~~~
steveklabnik
Justine explicitly said that she's leaving them on in order to show everyone
what happens when someone reports a sexual assault.

~~~
stock_toaster
Ah. I didn't see that mentioned in the post itself anywhere. Thanks for the
info.

~~~
steveklabnik
No problem, it was on Twitter:
[https://twitter.com/SaltineJustine/status/388908504209047552](https://twitter.com/SaltineJustine/status/388908504209047552)

------
downandout
Her boss should not have even attempted to have a fling with her - that
exposes the company to liability, and he was rightly fired. It's pretty
obvious that she didn't feel that this was enough punishment for his behavior,
and has now publicly named him in an attempt to extract her idea of justice
out of the situation. It would be interesting to see if he responds with any
kind of legal action, as I imagine that he has a side to the story as well.
From her own description of the incident, she was voluntarily allowing
intimate conduct until she told him to stop, at which point he did. Assuming
the blog post is the same story she would have given to police, this certainly
wouldn't have made for a criminal case even if she had filed a report.

She certainly has a right to feel violated, and to publish an accurate
description of what happened if she so chooses. I just have a feeling that the
guy involved is going to take some form of legal action and that he may indeed
have a case for libel - however unfair that may be in the eyes of herself or
others. It's just a bad situation all around, which is why bosses should avoid
such encounters with their employees at all costs.

~~~
thomasmeeks
Given her (and the two other) accounts, this absolutely was sexual battery. A
drunk, intimidated, or otherwise incapacitated victim does not give an
attacker free reign to do whatever they feel like doing. Drunkenness on the
attacker's part is not a defense.

If you start touching someone like this, it is not their job to stop you. It
is your job to be, beyond a shadow of a doubt, positive that the touch is
welcomed. If you are a grabby drunk, don't get drunk.

This is common sense. It is also the law.

I cannot even fathom how he could possibly have a case for libel. We have
three accounts, largely the same, as to the facts of the matter. Her account
must be a lie (substantially, not in details) for libel to even be a
possibility.

Nor can I understand the sentiment that his lost job is somehow recompense for
the act. It is just a job, not jail time.

It is so terrible that this happened. To heap these sorts of reactions on top
of it all is very deeply disappointing.

~~~
general_failure
If this is indeed the law, its scary. I for one take some Time to realize that
someone is not into it. In fact I always put in extra effort to put someone in
the mood if they are feeling frigid. I thought this is normal male behavior -
a little bit of persistence. I see this in movies all the time. Maybe we need
to mark most of the american movies as R.

~~~
chris_wot
I strongly urge you to reconsider what you are doing! Not only are you putting
yourself at risk of a rape claim, but you really could assault someone. What
he says is true. It _is_ the law - the onus is on the party who initiates the
activity to gain clear consent.

If that involves specifically asking, then so be it.

I see you've been downvoted to oblivion, which I hope gives you some idea as
to how dangerous what you are saying is and how dimly most people are viewing
it.

------
sliverstorm
_I am fairly certain that the events that Monday in January ruined me for the
rest of my life_

Is this typical? I've read a fair amount of stories from rape victims, and yet
here we are to understand this woman's life has come completely unhinged and
ruined for good by something... I don't know, somewhat less dramatic than a
rape. If I hadn't read the story of the event itself, I'd have honestly
thought it was about a brutal, violent rape.

I realize I probably sound like a jerk, but as I've never had personal
involvement with this sort of thing I have no first-hand experience, and after
reading this story I suddenly find myself shocked & confused as I think of the
other stories I have read in the past. All I can do is ask for input. Please
treat this as an honest question.

~~~
steveklabnik
Yes. The relevant concept, as much as I _hate_ to link to wikipedia:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_trauma](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_trauma)

As well as
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_trauma_syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_trauma_syndrome)

~~~
sliverstorm
To be clear, I understand & am familiar with those concepts. I'm just... I
don't want to put it in terms of comparison, but that's all I've got- shocked
& confused that an event that I would expect to be less traumatic than rape,
is seeming to impact the victim in ways much more dramatic than any recounting
from a rape victim I can remember.

Again, I hate to put it in terms of comparison. There's no competition here.
I'm just trying to adjust my understanding to fit.

~~~
steveklabnik
From the outside, it may not seem to be as bad as rape. But the crime,
psychologically, is fundamentally the same: it's about having autonomy over
your body. The only difference is degree.

> than any recounting from a rape victim I can remember.

I don't know you, but consider that you probably don't know a representative
sample of rape and/or sexual assault victims, and therefore, your experiences
may not reflect overall reality.

Furthermore, humans are incredibly different. To make an almost non-sequitur
comparison, I don't particularly feel tattoos hurt a lot. I know some people
who scream and cry after ten minutes. Everyone will react to some kind of
trauma in a different fashion.

------
tunesmith
Completely beside the larger point of assault, I am just frankly amazed at the
seemingly unanimous defense (in the three blog writeups) of the level of
drinking that happens in these atmospheres. It really does read as if people
are saying, look, people should be able to get shitfaced drunk every night at
a professional conference without having to worry. And... well gosh maybe
that's true in _theory_ , but... isn't that an earthshakingly huge "but"?

my god. So. much. alcohol.

I am not _blaming_ the events on the alcohol, because I get that the root
cause of events like these are far deeper. But it sure does seem like the
alcohol serves as something of a counterfactual; if the alcohol hadn't been
flowing as freely, none of this might have happened. What on earth is the deal
with the culture of these conferences? I'm a programmer, and I have friends,
and I go out, and I'm not a prude, but I swear, I haven't gotten buzzed for
six months and I rarely have more than one drink in an outing. With this kind
of picture painted, I feel like I'd be a complete alien at a Ruby conference,
and it feels like a disincentive to get more involved with that community.

~~~
7Figures2Commas
> What on earth is the deal with the culture of these conferences?

It's not just the conferences. I have visited startups that have beer on tap
or in the fridge, and some companies even inject alcohol into the interview
process[1].

Mixing work and alcohol is a bad idea. Period. There's just too much that can
go wrong. Sadly, in some industries, and at some companies, and in much of
society at large, alcohol consumption is so strongly encouraged and expected
that many individuals who would like to opt out feel uneasy about whether they
can do so without consequence.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6518763](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6518763)

------
Dalkore
Please read "After the shot" again. If im not mistaken kissing forheads and
rubbing is commen place with your male friends. You mention multiple
coworkers. He hand grabs your butt and you dont immediatly pull away????? Why
not take responsibility for your actions as well. Ive been to bars and seen
drunken mistakes but to vilify the person like this and not take any
resposibilty for your actions is pathetic and immature. Yes he crossed the
line but maybe we should hear that from you too.

~~~
exodust
Exactly.

She had opportunity to stop things before it progressed to "down the front of
the pants."

Do people not understand what's involved in putting a hand down a girl's
front? It's actually not that easy to do... it can't be done "casually" in a
public bar without both parties allowing it to happen.

Not to mention "forcibly kissing me with his tongue"... How is that even
possible unless the other person opens their mouth and lets your tongue in?

If a girl doesn't want your tongue in her mouth at a public bar, guess what?
Your tongue is not going in her mouth! That's how kissing works in case any
readers here are rusty on the subject! :-)

Go ahead, downvote. But please don't kid yourself that this girl isn't playing
the "victim of alcohol-fueled tech industry sleaze" game.

~~~
erikpukinskis
I wonder if part of it isn't the "landmine mode" that minorities have to be in
to succeed in the workplace. As a woman you have to be hypervigilant about how
you are perceived amongst your coworkers. There are _very_ small runways of
acceptable behavior between pushover and bitch, between slut and ice queen,
etc. There is the pressure to fit in and "go with the flow" but then there you
know that when shit hits the fan (as it did here) your every move will be
scrutinized and every opportunity to blame you for your misfortune will be
taken.

As a result, I think minorities in the work place have a constant running
double, triple, quadruple-checking loop for their behavior. Everything they
want to say need to be run by a bunch of checks to make sure it meets the
"safe for a male-dominated workplace" test.

As a result you're much slower to react to thing. As a majority member it's
much easier to just blurt out your first thought, or to act out your first
reaction... since you're the norm, it's reasonable to assume that your first
instinct will be acceptable to the group.

But as a minority, you learn to second-guess yourself. Therefore even as
someone is forcibly kissing you, you are second guessing what your options
really are.

------
erikpukinskis
One thing we can all do:

Start asking before you touch in situations where you know you don't have to.

I know it's awkward. But the reason people like Joe think they can put their
hands down someone's pants is because we don't have a cultural practice of
"ask first". They see you put your arms around that friend of yours who
doesn't mind at all, and they think "Ah, cool... so you can just sense if
she's cool with it and then go for it".

Of course _you 're_ not a scumbag, so you'd never put your hands down
someone's pants without asking, but that's the thing... scumbags can't tell
the difference. They don't see the difference between you rubbing your
friend's back because she's having a bad day--your friend who is happy to have
a little contact from you--they don't see the difference between that and them
taking a body shot off of their employee without asking. In both cases they
just see someone making their best guess at what someone else wants, without
asking, and going for it. That's the cultural standard, that's _your_
standard, so that's what they hold themselves to.

Basically, right now we try to draw the line between ask/don't ask as close to
the ok/not ok line as we possibly can. But in a world where people make
mistakes that means there are lots of "accidents". The only way to prevent
those accidents is to move the ask/don't ask line further into "ok" territory.

Sexual assault might seem like an issue between individuals, but as long as we
see it that way it will continue happening. If we're serious about changing
it, it's something we have to collectively take responsibility for.

If hundreds of times a week these people see the rest of us asking our wives,
asking our friends, asking everyone "do you want a backrub?" and "can I kiss
you?" and "is this ok?" then their expectations change. They'll start to feel
weird not asking. And maybe some of these assaults can turn into near-
assaults.

~~~
sneak
I think a much more workable solution would be to collectively attempt to
abandon the shitty American brand of alcohol culture that seems to be a fairly
common contributing factor in a lot of these stories about rape and assault.

Alcohol makes one stupid, not cool. I have no idea why it is held in such high
esteem in the US tech industry.

~~~
sdoering
I'm so with you. After reading this (and a lot of similar) account, I knew,
that I would never(!) enter any conference like that, regardless, where it is
held.

An drug-induced culture like that is just hurtful/unhealthy. Regardless of the
drug they put into their bodies, I have an internal policy never to mix with
druggies.

I am really shocked, that it seems so normal to drink that much booze. Hey, I
really like a glas of wine here or there, a glas of good scotch once in a
while. But I am not 15 (coming from Germany) anymore. I do not have to be dumb
playing cool drinking booze.

So I really hope for the OP, as I really hope for the american tech-conference
culture. For the first: I wish her the utmost and very best. For the second:
Grow up!

~~~
sneak
> An drug-induced culture like that is just hurtful/unhealthy. Regardless of
> the drug they put into their bodies, I have an internal policy never to mix
> with druggies.

Caffeine culture suffers no such problems.

~~~
sdoering
OK, I am with you on that one. ;-)

But I really feeld the withdrawl symptoms in the afternoon at work, if I do
not at least drink two cups of coffee till 2pm.

That is why I try to reduce my caffein-intake gradually.

------
eddiedunn
I'm disgusted by this whole thing. Here's a lot of people jumping to
conclusions based on the one-sided account of one person's blog post. Hasn't
it occurred to you people that she might be lying? I'm not saying she is, but
there is a possibility. We have legal processes for a reason.

Based on her account alone, I can say this: 1\. She's very emotionally
unstable and needs to seek professional help, for her own sake as well as
everyone else's 2\. She believes she was sexually assaulted, and consequently
needs to report this to the police 3\. Making a blog post about it was a big
mistake if she has any hopes of the legal system punishing the man that
sexually assaulted her

Finally, we live in a society where the man is supposed to "take initiative"
and be "assertive and confident". You may say that it sucks, and I won't argue
against you, but that's just the way it is. So men will do try to do things
that women will not always appreciate. Consequently women _need_ to learn how
to say "NO". This is really fucking important, for their own sake.

I imagine things would've played out a lot differently if Justine had taken
responsibility for herself -- that she was in a bad situation with a man, but
a situation that she, being a grown woman, could get out of by loudly saying
"NO". Instead she asked the guy about his wife and kids. Instead she stood
there passively until a knight in shining armor saved her -- too late.

Women are not children. They need to learn, or be taught, to stand up for
themselves. There won't always be someone there to defend them. Dealing with
this fact is part of growing up.

~~~
steveklabnik
> based on the one-sided account of one person's blog post.

... as well as corroboration by two other witnesses.

~~~
Dalkore
Can you point me to this please. I would like to read their corroboration of
this event. It would help my opinion much more. This situation is so grey area
that another perspective would help. Please link, thank you so much.

~~~
steveklabnik
I'm on mobile, so I'll paste this comment which had both links:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6538644](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6538644)

I don't agree with the comment, but they're both there.

------
jmduke
I haven't been to a programming conference before, and I always assumed it was
kinda prudish of the people who said that the atmosphere at such events should
be toned down. They reminded me of the people on my freshman hall who would
give me dirty glances when I stumbled in late and tipsy: _who are you to tell
me what 's wrong?_

 _What 's the harm? I like whiskey. It's tasty, and makes me more sociable._

Now I get it. I'm not saying that's the main takeaway from this article, but a
norm dictating that industry conferences should have an average BAC higher
than half of my college parties is never going to help the situation.

~~~
epochwolf
I've been to a couple of insurance conferences and they have this problem too.
One of my coworkers witnessed an assault take place in a bar everyone was at.

------
ChrisNorstrom
This is a body shot for those who don't know.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBPT6AUnUnI](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBPT6AUnUnI)
|
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKP99wrx6Sc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKP99wrx6Sc)
|
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBbz6hhoKbg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBbz6hhoKbg)

Open-Minded Alternative-Understanding Scenario time:

You're a male with your male gay friends at a gay bar. They're taller than you
as they are gays of the muscle bear variety. You're the only one who's
straight but you want to show them you're one of the gang too. You agree to a
body shot or a pole dance to show them "hey look I'm not homophobic, I can
roll with you guys I can go along with the joke, I'm comfortable around you".
One of the muscle bears (beefy, dominant, taller and stronger than you) starts
kissing you, sticks his hands down your pants, grabs & squeezes your testicles
and fingers your ass. How would you react?

Did you make a bad decision?

Were you asking for anything?

Was it your fault or the muscle bears fault?

Who went too far?

What were your and others' expectations of the situation?

This scenario is specifically designed to help people understand that while
Justine did agree to a body-shot, nothing warranted taking things further. The
"look but don't touch" rule applies at all times. Then again body shots are
impossible to do without someone sucking juice out of your belly button with
their mouth. I'm trying to see this from both parties' points of view. On
Joe's end, I think a lot of men are trained by society, dating advice,
hormones, movies, films, and even other girlfriends, that a man's purpose is
to take what he wants, make the first move, initiate dominance and not ask for
permission.

From Justine's point of view.... I understand what you were going for. Trying
to earn their admiration... I feel bad for you. A body shot, pole dance, strip
tease, doesn't warrant kissing, groping, or fingering, period. But honestly,
body shots with co-workers is a bit.........unprofessional. Don't ever put
yourself in a submissive position emotionally or physically around drunk men
to try to prove yourself to them. Men do not respect submission. How is
letting them do body shots off you make you one of them? Do they do body shots
off each other?

~~~
plinkplonk
"You agree to a body shot or a pole dance to show them "hey look I'm not
homophobic, I can roll with you guys I can go along with the joke, I'm
comfortable around you". "

As a straight person, I can't imagine allowing a drunk 'muscle bear gay' to do
a body shot (I had to look 'body shot' up- I'm not American) on me just to
show a gay crowd that I can "roll with you guys"(!!). Licking salt off
someone's body seems (to me) to have sexual overtones, but this maybe
different in US culture. Honest question: Do straight men/women take body
shots off one another? (which should happen if this were a non sexual thing).

Seems like a very overstretched scenario, but I'm not sure if this is ok in
some cultures (again, not an American, though I've lived in the USA, and so
could be missing cultural nuance).

I have no comment on the original event, and I appreciate your attempt to
create a scenario straight men would understand. Just saying(fwiw) that your
analogy seems to be fairly unrealistic, and may end up conveying (to straight
men) that this is a fairly unrealistic scenario in the first place, which
would be precisely the opposite of what you intended.

Has any straight person here actually done things like this? (again, just
curiosity, not arguing about the rightness of various parties' actions in the
reported event).

That said, I totally agree with your (well made) "don't make sexual moves
unless you have confirmation that they would be well received" point.

Personally, I wouldn't want to have a sexual relationship with anyone who
works with or for me. Yes, I know it is a little bit extreme, but (imo) not
worth the hassle if/when things go wrong.

------
pearjuice
So she voluntarily lied down on a bar with her and men around her intoxicated
by alcohol, hormones amplified and expecting nothing out of the usual to
happen? Get real, please. Of course it is horrible but don't make it look like
it was unexpected.

~~~
steveklabnik
I don't know about you, but I do not want to live in a society where women
cannot go to a bar without an expectation of being sexually assaulted. Sounds
like a bug.

~~~
pearjuice
In the society I breathe daily, women generally do not get sexually assaulted
when they go to a bar (I don't know the statistics). However, I quote:

"At some point, it was suggested that I do a body shot. I’ve never done one in
my life but at the insistence of many people, attendees and bartenders I
decided to lay on the bar."

this is an invitation to sexual behavior. "A body shot is a shot of alcohol
(such as tequila) that is consumed from a person's body, usually from
erogenous zones such as the navel or the breasts."[0]

How possibly did she not fathom that this could result in her being approached
with a sexual tone? She even voluntarily lifted her shirt ("Someone who was up
for anything." [...] "and lifted my shirt as far as I was comfortable") Could
it have been the alcohol which intoxicated her body and disabled her anxiety?
Made her forget that she was with other men also under influence of the
effects of alcohol and she was one of the few if not only woman offering her
body to be licked?

In which off all the possible outcomes did she expect that she would have get
the drink removed from her body and be done with it? Have you guys even
thought about this?

It is really sad how everything evolved and what kind of person she became due
to these actions but please look at the circumstances and how it was her who
initiated everything.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol)

~~~
steveklabnik
Consent to a body shot is consent to a body shot. Let's not even bring up the
coercive aspect here.

Consent to a body shot is not consent to sex afterward.

~~~
general_failure
huh ? They didn't have sex. Did you read the article or do you know something
we don't.

~~~
klepra
So, forced kiss and fingering in public is no big deal, huh?

------
konstruktor
We have a culture of alcohol being involved in most team interactions outside
of work. Those mostly take place in the evening, a time when, usually, private
socializing, including mate seeking behaviour, happens. That alone would be
quite a fertile ground for sexual harassment, if you add a few females to a
group mostly consisting of men. Then add companies where people work long
hours and have little life outside of work. And now consider conferences,
where people are away from their regular social circle for extended periods of
time.

I would not want to be a young, attractive female working in this environment.

~~~
GeorgeOrr
I really don't think it's about alcohol or about men and women working in
close quarters for long hours.

This is about a small number of pigs that care more about their desire than
any thought of consent or mutual interest. Real men, the vast majority, would
never consider inflicting this sort of evil on another. Drunk or not. It's not
about sex, it's about power and abuse.

~~~
eulerphi
The white knight.

------
copx
Reading the comments here makes me think I am in bizarro world. Is expecting
women to say "No!" already too much personal responsibility for them these
days?

Calling this "sexual assault" is just crazy. There was no force, she never
told him to stop. This would be thrown out in court without question in any
half-way sane country.

~~~
steveklabnik
Consent is not defined by the absence of a no, but a presence of a yes.

The situation described falls within the definition of sexual assault in the
United States, at least. I am not a lawyer. Decide for yourself:
[http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2907.03](http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2907.03)

~~~
lawnchair_larry
> _Consent is not defined by the absence of a no, but a presence of a yes._

As nice as that sounds, there isn't a shred of truth to it in the real world.
Pre-emptively asking a female before making a move will get you shut down
every time. You're supposed to read the situation, pick up on signals, and
often be a little bit psychic. Show me a female who wants you to explicitly
ask permission before every action and I'll show you a liar.

~~~
tommorris
Pre-emptively asking someone before borrowing their car gets you shut down
every time.

That's not a reason to not do do so.

~~~
lawnchair_larry
I'm not arguing for or against anything in particular, I'm just saying how
humans mate away from their keyboards.

A process which has no relation whatsoever to that of borrowing a vehicle, I
might add.

If you want to go reductio ad absurdum on me, you can twist what I said to
imply that I'm suggesting it's fine to go around raping people first and
asking questions later, but I trust that a rational reader won't have issues
understanding what my actual message was (even if they disagree with it
(wrongly)).

------
BenderV
This is sad. I don't want to be the devil advocate but I don't think we can
judge here...So I will imagine the defense of Joe ;

I understand that Justine doesn't want to enter in details. But without all
informations, it does seem to me that Joe could have just misunderstood
Justine behavior.

"\- Joe began to start rubbing my back and kissing my forehead (let me say
this is not uncommon behavior between me and men I consider close friends." =>
Joe certainly believed that it was unique between Her and Him. He doesn't have
the same pov as Justine

"\- Joe then put his hands down the back of my pants, yes, I wear a thong and
thus he began grabbing my ass." => Shouldn't she stop him there ?

"\- Joe then started kissing me, forcibly with his tongue. I was not
reciprocating." => Joe is drunk. He certainly does not remark that.

"\- Joe began to put his hand down the front of my pants and finger me." => He
certainly have gone to far there. But why does he wasn't stopped before and
during that operation (not easy) !

"\- I told Joe to stop and reminded him he had a wife and children. He said,
“Don’t’ worry about it we have an agreement”" => That unfortunate, in one side
(Justine), it seems to be the smartest thing to say to calm him down, in the
other side (Joe), it seems like a girl who know it is wrong but wanted it if
he is certain would said.

As for what we have here, it doesn't seem to me that Joe is specially an
asshole (but maybe I'm wrong.), but more that this could be the results of
peers pressure and mis-communication.

[Again, I don't want to judge here, just to give another pov]

It's however clear that Joe should have think about how his work relation [the
fact that he is her boss...] influence that relation.

Maybe this is what the victims of assault don't tell the police. They fear
that the case will be drop because of lack of details...

"\- Finally Matt Darby approached me and asked if I want to go out for a smoke
(I smoke, he does’t smoke, and I knew that he was trying to help) I agreed."
That's a smart move. Bravo Matt.

In another subject, I'm surprised (and sad ?) that HN doesn't give any tips,
tools for all the possible victims.

~~~
steveklabnik
> without all informations

Which more information would you need? There are two other people that
corroborate her story, and Joe says he's not saying anything.

~~~
BenderV
The defense of Joe ? The fact that he is not saying anything on the Internet
is not a proof of anything...

And again, I don't say that her story is false. Just that it could have been
viewed in an another way from Joe pov.

People seem eager to judge other people. Especially on the internet...

~~~
spatulon
I've also noticed that people on the internet usually react to a woman's claim
of assault or rape with skepticism and disbelief.

Even in this thread, there seems to be a lot of empathy for the alleged
attacker -- whose story we haven't heard -- and far too little for the victim.
We know what she says happened, we know it's been corroborated by two
witnesses, and we know the resulting trauma it's caused her, so why are so
many people feeling sorry him and not her?

------
cefarix
As an aside, why is alcohol such a big part of things like tech meetups, etc?
I've been to a few and there is always alcohol being served and people
drinking it. As a Muslim, I've never touched alcohol and never will, and I
don't understand the need to "alcoholize" everything. Why can't there be a
culture of having just good clean fun, no alcohol, no drugs, no sexualizing?
And what place does alcohol even have at tech events?

~~~
felipe
As a non-believer, I've never touched a sacred book and never will, and I
don't understand the need to "indoctrinate" everything. Why can't there be a
culture of having just good clean fun, no religion, no wars, no oppression in
the name of a virtual god?

(point being: blame the perpetrator, not the substance)

~~~
cefarix
Religion and alcohol are not the same. Are trying to say that religion is like
a rapist? But even if I continue with your horribly broken and anti-
religionist analogy, I could say: I don't bring religion into my work/meetings
so why bring alcohol into it?

~~~
anu_gupta
Then why mention your religion here? How is it in any way relevant?

~~~
chris_wot
Because, as a Muslim, I assume he doesn't drink. He was asking a fairly
legitimate question, which is why is alcohol so closely associated with the
tech scene?

My answer to him is that alcohol often helps folks loosen up. It's great, and
fun, but only when you take it in reasonable moderation.

------
Confusion
I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had
that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women
that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in
this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the
response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been
violated, she loses all value.

Why would anyone still believe that in our modern society? Because like the
vilification of gay people ('gay' and 'faggot' are still a word used by
virtually everyone to put things down as 'unmanly' or generally 'shameworthy')
it has has entered the undertow of culture, where it is less apparent, but
just as strong.

When someone is raped, we say we understand that her life is shattered, that
she will never recover. It's part of a general acceptance that certain events
mean someone's life is 'over' (death of a child, significant other) and that
they may never recover. This acceptance implies expectation. Stronger women
are questioned, seemingly admiringly, but actually judgingly: 'How can you
just continue living after this?' with a hidden 'you are supposed to have
broken!'.

It's easy to say that being raped should be like breaking a leg: an
unfortunate event that can happen during a lifetime in human society with all
its strange and from which you can recover after some pain and trouble. The
difference is of course that one was inflicted on purpose by someone in your
social group, while the other is usually self-inflicted or at least
accidental. That this makes a difference is actually part of the same problem:
that if you've been bested by another in your social group, you lose status
and value. This also has ancient origins and as a result has deep roots in our
minds. A chimpanzee with a broken leg doesn't lose status if humans take care
of its leg. It only loses status if it loses a fight.

What is the way out of this? Make a conscious effort not to believe these
things anymore. Raise your children not to believe these things. Don't
participate in them and scold everyone that does them. Teach them it doesn't
matter if someone has asserted dominance over them and that their lives are no
less valuable as a result of it.

Justine, please seek professional help. Find a therapist that will work on
changing the beliefs that have caused you to experience this event so strongly
and caused it to have such an influence. There are lots of women on whom a
similar experience had a weaker effect. This is not because you are weaker: it
is because of what you were taught during your life, because of your beliefs.
It is hard to change beliefs. There are many emotions connected to them, which
makes you recoil from touching them. A professional therapists will enable
this process, after which I hope you will look back and think "why on earth
did I believe those things so strongly that a single event could have such a
strong influence on my life?!"

~~~
pearjuice
>walls of text everywhere trying to examine the situation and blame those
involved

You guys have to deal with it that she voluntarily lied down on a bar, induced
by alcohol with other men around her and OFFERED her body to be licked. In
which universe did she saw an expected outcome of not being approached with a
sexual tone? They were drinking the entire night and all those geeky guys
normally filled with anxiety completely loose up with one of the other sex
they have been around with for quite some time and then all of a sudden this
woman lies down on a bar, peels her shirt up and pours a drink on her body
whilst having a boy friend?

She must have at least expected something, no? She was not raped or "sexually
assaulted", she had intimate contact which she knowingly was building up to
the entire night and she could have very well contracted her back muscles and
got off that bar when she saw her boss approaching. In fact, why did she even
get on that bar when she was fully aware of the context? A body shot, really?

~~~
mst
Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering
anything else.

Die in a fucking fire, you victim blaming moronic waste of fucking skin. Or at
the very least get the fuck out of my fucking industry so you stop giving
those of us with a penis _and_ a clue a bad name.

Fuck you.

~~~
pearjuice
That's a lot of ad hominem we got there. You may want to slow down a bit and
take things easy.

>Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering
anything else

"A body shot is a shot of alcohol (such as tequila) that is consumed from a
person's body, usually from erogenous zones such as the navel or the breasts."
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol))

Reading further:

"An erogenous zone (from Greek ἔρως eros "love" and English -genous
"producing" from Greek -γενής -genes "born") is an area of the human body that
has heightened sensitivity, the stimulation of which may result in the
production of sexual fantasies, sexual arousal and orgasm."
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erogenous_zone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erogenous_zone))

Please take note of the part involving "sexual fantasies, sexual arousal and
orgasm". She peeled her shirt up in a submissive position on a bar with lots
of alcohol involved. Which part are you missing?

~~~
untog
You're forgetting that they pressured her to do it. So, socially pressure
someone into doing something sexually submissive = she's fair game to go
further?

Yeah. That's sick.

~~~
Dalkore
She should of just gotten up from the bar. From how the story reads, I don't
think she was laying down at that point so she had the opportunity to walk
away. 4 separate acts happened and by her account 3 were unwanted. How many
does it take for someone to just remove themselves from the situation? How
many?

------
xdissent
Peer pressure body shots? I don't know, guys.

~~~
steveklabnik
Welcome to my community, apparently. :'(

~~~
milesf
No, this is not the community I have loved and been a part of for 8 years.
This kind of behaviour - assault, companies covering up the matter, bullying -
is NOT acceptable!

I will stand up, all 445 pounds of me, to anyone who thinks this matter should
just go away. We need to talk about this, and minds need to be changed so that
our community will improve.

~~~
ddorian43
You should consider loosing weight.

~~~
klepra
You don't know his height/bodyfat.

~~~
jlgreco
While true, keep in mind that Hulk Hogan was billed at 302lbs. There are
potentially healthy body configurations at that weight, but not many.

~~~
klepra
I tried to demonstrate ridiculousness of off-topic ad-hominem attack of posts
author by providing more off-topic.

~~~
jlgreco
I have absolutely no idea what this comment means; sorry.

------
bobsy
Joe's behaviour is completely unacceptable. Her treatment at work like some
leper again is unacceptable though some this could be attributed to
awkwardness on how to broach the subject or if it should be talked about at
all.

Two things strike me though:

Shots off of Justine's stomach. The best response I have heard from a girl in
a mixed group when asked to do it was "I will do it if you do it first." It
turns it from another girl doing shots on the bar to a weird group activity
which is silly, not sexual. Obviously a straight up no would suffice, who
cares what a drunk person says?

The second thing was how it went down. During a recent stag do a random girl
walked over to one of our group and kissed him randomly without warning or
anything. The guy pushed her away, recoiled in horror and said with a look of
despair "she - put - her - tongue - in - my - mouth!?"

We laughed but seriously, we knew it wasn't consensual, if she went back in we
would have pulled her away.

I feel this is the correct response to being jumped on. This or a loud no.

Not reciprocating, then questioning whether the wife would mind is not a no.
Standing there awkwardly waiting for it to be over does not convey stop and it
doesn't give friends an opportunity to come to the rescue.

Without a no the lack of participation can suggest hesitation. Asking about
the wife perhaps reinforces this. "Oh so thats why you are slow getting into
it. Don't worry about her." From the outside the lack of no and look of
awkwardness could suggest this isn't something you do very often. Not that you
want it to stop.

Justine is not at fault in the slightest. Joe forced himself on her. That said
I wonder how differently things would have been if she straight up said no or
even pushed him away.

~~~
britta
It can be really hard, almost impossibly hard, to make decisions when you're
suddenly confronted with a situation that breaks your understanding of a
person you trust (especially a person who has power over you, and especially a
situation that seriously violates social norms) - at that moment, you're
intensely confused, with a big "WTF" blaring in your head, your brain is
flooding with panic and adrenaline...it's not hard to understand freezing up
and just making the small efforts that are all you can manage, while hoping
that it won't escalate (even while it keeps escalating).

It would be great for everyone to be able to bypass that shocked paralysis and
immediately push away their attackers, but it's not realistic.

~~~
general_failure
I don't get the body shots with people you trust part. What sort of girls do
these? Honest question. In my culture we call such girls sluts.

~~~
ek
In the US, at least, consenting adults are free to do what they like within
reasonable limits, of course with a concession for obscenity while in public.
There's nothing particularly obscene about doing a body shot in good company.
Had it occurred to you that some might find it fun?

Two things about your "culture": 1\. Why does your culture seek to prescribe
sexuality in such a seemingly overbearing way? 2\. Has your culture not yet
moved beyond slut-shaming, which is irrational and harmful for all parties
involved?

------
janl
My heart goes out to Justine and her courage to talk publicly about this. We
are all in her debt.

------
Tichy
I don't understand that story. Why did she let it happen? I'm sorry for what
was done to her, but there seem to be a lot of misunderstanding and misguided
assumptions that led to the mistake. She doesn't seem to be aware that she was
coming on to the guys (ie doing body shots, then being shocked when colleague
X takes the picture).

For me it is rather another example how a woman can destroy a man's life at a
whim with a rape accusation.

------
reledi
There's always a huge amount of drinking at tech gatherings. Please do
yourself and your peers a favour by knowing when to stop drinking. It helps to
have a drink limit and sticking to it, no matter if others encourage you to
drink more. I'm going to sound like an advertisement, but please drink
responsibly.

------
ryan-allen
Sexual assault is a crime, and she should report this to the police and press
charges.

A blog post isn't going to get justice, but the courts might.

Internet mob justice isn't justice.

~~~
konstruktor
According to the story, the other person involved was allowed to leave the
company, saying it was his own decision. Nobody forced him to blog about it.
He, however, chose to take the topic of his leaving the company public, in a
way that one can easily see would sound like derision to somebody who was a
victim of assault:
[http://objo.com/2013/01/31/funemployment/](http://objo.com/2013/01/31/funemployment/)

So now it's internet mob behaviour if she posts her side of the story?

~~~
ryan-allen
Last time I checked there was this thing called "due process". There were two
witnesses to the alleged assault and I say alleged because in the eyes of the
law it is alleged until tried in a court, and you are an idiot if you don't
know this.

You don't even know if the assault happened and you are judging this man
without a trial. You are a a goddamn imbecile. There were two witnesses,
that's pretty clear cut.

His blog post has nothing to do with the alleged assault and you produce that
as evidence of his guilt? I'm glad you're not running the legal system.

~~~
Dalkore
Exactly. All this guilt mobbing absurd. This is someones life we are talking
about. If you really care about this situation you would want this to be
handled properly and not through an internet website with a bunch of strangers
that have no connection this is account other than it was posted here.

~~~
wilkie
There are three accounts of what happened all supporting her account of what
happened. There is absolutely no guarantee that the courts are a safer, or
better way for her to make her accusation. It might be the opposite. Or the
police won't care.

------
sneak
Don't read the comments.

Repeat: don't read the comments.

Fuckin' people. Ugh.

~~~
milesf
Justine is leaving the comments on:

"I am leaving comments on exactly because of that. Although they hurt me, they
are a prime example why victims don't speak up."

[https://twitter.com/SaltineJustine/status/388908504209047552](https://twitter.com/SaltineJustine/status/388908504209047552)

I cannot believe the courage of this woman.

------
kenster07
The story is heart wrenching, but the fact is, it may not be true. Anyone can
literally say anything they want about someone and the internet will believe
it without a moment's hesitation. It is downright scary.

If you were the accused and the story was contrived, you would not have much
recourse.

~~~
steveklabnik
There are two men, one of whom stopped it, who corroborate her story:
[http://theotherzach.com/writes/2013/10/9/events](http://theotherzach.com/writes/2013/10/9/events)
and [http://blog.matt-darby.com/essays/i-am-the-other-
developer](http://blog.matt-darby.com/essays/i-am-the-other-developer)

~~~
exodust
Interesting. She actually lay on the bar AFTER he had his hand on her butt.
That's a bit different to her account. Also, she failed to mention the
"chomping on her breast".

Silly girl.

~~~
sneak
No action taken by a person entitles others to sexually assault them. There is
no such thing as "advance consent".

Please stop perpetuating this poisonous meme.

~~~
exodust
I like your quote, but isn't laughing a signal? And therefore an action? When
you laugh after someone touches you (which apparently she did), you're
communicating a thumbs up to the toucher. Which is NOT an invitation for more
touching, I get that, but it's certainly within the rights of the toucher to
believe that further touching has been pre-approved. Level of drunkness
influences how someone will wait for a more certain invitation before going
ahead and touching again. This happens sometimes in bars and clubs.

She did say she felt suicidal at one point, so that's enough to lay off and
put this down to just how far a messy night can go! We'll never know if
another catalyst could have triggered suicidal thoughts if the event had never
happened, but if I had to bet, I think she was heading somewhere dark before
that night.

------
lawnchair_larry
I feel bad for Joe.

What he did was not malicious. He is not an abuser or predator. He did a dumb
thing.

This story isn't about a rapist or someone who preys on women. It's about a
drunk man who thought he was going to score. A man who was becoming
increasingly physical with a woman who he was attracted to, and who invited
him to do a body shot after he had grabbed her ass. For those who don't know
what body shots are, that's when a girl lays down on the bar, lifts her shirt,
and holds a lime in her mouth. The bartender pours tequila in her navel, and
another party drinks it from her stomach, and then, using his mouth takes the
lime she is holding in her mouth, which amounts to a kiss. It's unquestionably
sexual. Here is a picture: [http://pubcrawlba.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2012/05/body-s...](http://pubcrawlba.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2012/05/body-shot-11.jpg)

"Body shots" are not a normal thing Americans do at conferences. I say that
not to judge, but to provide context. I've been to a lot of industry parties,
with a lot of alcohol, and a lot of very drunk (or high) "party animals", and
haven't seen this done. I think most people would associate it with those
"Girls Gone Wild" ads that used to run. For the record, it's not normal or
appropriate to exchange backrubs and forehead kisses with male coworkers
either. I'm a bit shocked that she said such behavior with her coworkers was
common. The reason this matters is that this is _certain_ to confuse people
about their relationship with you.

So this man, a drunk, sexual being, who was not holding someone against their
will or being violent, kept testing his boundaries and not receiving any
indication that he had crossed a line. In fact, it's perfectly reasonable to
interpret that after sexually touching her, and she invited him to lick her
body and take a lime from her lips, that she was very much into this. In fact,
a reasonable person could make this interpretation while completely sober.
Then, she never says she doesn't want the behavior, but instead she says he
has a wife and kids. "Well, if that's the only thing stopping us, I have great
news...I have permission from my wife!" he says.

This isn't placing blame. Don't reply telling me about victim blaming. It's a
bad miscommunication. He needed to be less drunk, she needed to be more clear.
Both of them made very poor decisions. The fact that she did body shots for
complicated reasons while masking discomfort to fit in is not his problem. She
wanted to look like she was into it, as she said, and she was successful in
giving him this impression. He has no way of knowing this, and no way of
knowing that the party girl laying on the bar secretly doesn't want him to
partake. Regardless, this is stupid, juvenile behavior on his part, which he
would not have done sober. He likely knows this and is deeply ashamed.

I know many commenters here are probably less experienced when it comes to
"hooking up" casually. To you, this all sounds straightforward. The vast
majority of the sexually active population does not work in this
straightforward way that you think - male and female. No man has ever touched
the rear of any female by first asking bluntly, "Is it alright if I touch your
butt?". No woman has ever told a man, "I would now like you to touch my butt."
Yet, there is a non-negligible part of the population who likes to touch and
be touched, and it isn't assault.

What happened here was all kinds of inappropriate, but it wasn't malicious.
It's extremely inappropriate to vilify this man given the nature of the
offense. And it's certainly not his fault that she became an alcoholic and got
a DUI. That sounds like a cop-out to me. He's now been publicly named and
shamed, which will be permanently on the internet and searchable for the rest
of his life, because one night he had drunk wandering hands on a female who he
thought was inviting the attention.

Edit: Whoa, wait just a minute here. We glossed over something fairly
significant.

 _" In recent months this year I’ve been arrested, charged with a DUI,
involved in second intervention classes..."_

She got a DUI.

She just threw that in there, non-chalantly.

She operated a vehicle while intoxicated. Most who get a DUI don't get caught
their first time, so she may have even developed a habit of it. Still, with
the benefit of the doubt, even doing this once is very serious. There is a
high risk that you can maim or kill innocent people while driving drunk.

Why is this not a huge controversy, and why is anyone forgiving her? Because
we all make mistakes, she was drunk, she's taken steps to get help with her
problem, and so on?

But here we are going to crucify someone who got too drunk and put his hands
down her pants.

~~~
arrrg
Holy shit. This is the top post? This? This victim blaming bullshit? (Just
because you say it’s not victim blaming doesn’t make it not victim blaming.)

Consent to one thing (whatever that may be) does not imply consent to another
thing. If you fail to make sure consent exists you always run the risk of
doing something non-consensual. If that’s a risk you want to take, well, then
do it. If you believe in your infallible abilities to read body language go
for it. But don’t complain when others call you out for sexual assault or
rape. (This doesn’t even begin to address the power imbalance of the
relationship.)

You should re-think the tons of empathy you seem to have for this guy, based
on some imaginary life-destroying effects of this blogpost, all the while you
seem to have exactly zero empathy for her.

Think about that.

~~~
heed
You're right he is victim blaming. Except, he says both parties were victims
in their own way.

~~~
arrrg
At this point I have a hard time seeing how her boss can be considered a
victim here. (It’s sad that I have to add this, but this is obviously assuming
her account is truthful.)

If you do the stuff described in the blog post you might be sorry, it might
have been a mistake you made while you were drunk and you might have had no
intentions of committing sexual assault or being in any way malicious but you
still committed sexual assault. Having good intentions (which the parent
comment was also only speculating about) doesn’t change that, really.

Maybe he is a victim of his brain making stupid decisions? I don’t know.
That’s how I sometimes feel when I make mistakes.

He is only a victim if she is falsely accusing him. Are you making that case?

------
tuananh
After reading Matt Darby's post[1], I had the feeling Justine definitely
mislead Joe.

Justine got her ass grabbed and still do body-shot !?

Joe is an ass, def. but part of it is Justine's fault too.

[1] [http://blog.matt-darby.com/essays/i-am-the-other-
developer](http://blog.matt-darby.com/essays/i-am-the-other-developer)

------
mkrecny
Here's Joe's "Funemployment" post:

[http://objo.com/2013/06/01/taking-some-time-
off/](http://objo.com/2013/06/01/taking-some-time-off/)

~~~
lawnchair_larry
While we're taking things out of context, I noticed that he also followed up
with a post that he is checking himself into a 6 week mental health program to
get some help.

[http://objo.com/2013/06/01/taking-some-time-
off/](http://objo.com/2013/06/01/taking-some-time-off/)

It's possible that just maybe, this is a decent man who made a bad decision,
like all of us have done in different ways. Fortunately for us, our mistakes
were not aired on the internet. There is a chance that he is not a cruel, evil
being that the internet should burn like a salem witch, but that he's human
like you and I.

If you think you're better than him, read this again in ten years. Eventually,
real life will happen, and you'll do something regrettable.

------
lnanek2
Pretty amazing boyfriend. She got upset at him touching her, so he slept on
the couch with his ankles belted together so he wouldn't get back in bed out
of sleepiness/habit. Wow.

~~~
enko
Yeah, "amazing" is not really the word I was thinking of. There's a lot that
is strange about this story, and that detail about the boyfriend _tying his
legs together with a belt_ is just the icing on the cake.

That is bizarre, almost disturbing behaviour. I am not going to comment on the
case at all but for me several details from this article cast a very strange
light on the whole scene, and that one just takes the cake.

~~~
gregd
Have you ever lived with, much less been in love with a victim of sexual
assault? This is hardly bizarre, almost disturbing behavior, given the
circumstances. I can imagine Justine lashing out at her boyfriend because she
may not have properly addressed what happened to her.

~~~
enko
Have I ever lived with someone who had unwelcome sexual advances made to her
at a party? Yep. In fact I myself have been the victim of "sexual assault", to
use your rather inclusive definition. I would imagine a large proportion of
the population have.

I was not there, but taking the post at face value, it was right for Joe to be
dismissed. His behaviour was inappropriate and unprofessional. The company's
whitewashing was also regrettable. But I have difficulty dismissing the notion
that the rather extreme reaction from Justine is indicative of some underlying
issues she might have. I concur with the top-voted comment that she may
benefit from therapy.

What Joe did was wrong, yes. But there is no line that connects that dot with
Justine's boyfriend _tying his fucking ankles together while sleeping on a
couch_. That is something else entirely, and I stand by what I said.

~~~
jonathanwallace
That something else entirely may be SBS,
[http://sleepsex.org/](http://sleepsex.org/).

------
JakaJancar
A genuine question:

How can some people be so reflective and seem to understand their problems
really well, yet still be completely paralyzed and unable to do anything about
them?

~~~
steveklabnik
The relevant psychological literature is on 'trauma.' I am not a psychologist,
but traumatic effects certainly cause lots of problems. It's incredibly
complex. Brains are hard.

------
ck2
This isn't her fault at all but I have to say this:

Hang around people doing drugs (large amounts of alcohol) and bad things are
guaranteed to happen sooner or later.

~~~
konstruktor
Cool advice. Now please tell me about an industry where "drinking with the
guys" is not a central part of the networking/socializing needed to have a
career.

~~~
ck2
_In recent months this year I’ve been arrested, charged with a DUI ... become
a borderline alcoholic_

She has been drinking and driving. This is not just peer pressure, this is
unforgivable.

~~~
steveklabnik
Yes, victims are often traumatized after an event like this, and it causes
them to make poor decisions later. That doesn't invalidate the assault.
Consent is consent.

~~~
ck2
I blame the boss for a whole bunch of things but where it gets to the point of
getting drunk and then getting behind a wheel and killing me or my friends,
that's where the victim turns into a criminal without forgiveness.

Your level of unconditional forgiveness becomes an excuse that I cannot
accept.

~~~
ddagradi
According to the post, she was punished by the law for that (DUI). What else
are you asking for?

~~~
ck2
There's no mention of punishment, only arrest. I'm asking, insisting actually,
she doesn't drive if she is going to do drugs. Getting sober is a better
request but I cannot make her do that, she has to find a way herself.

~~~
chris_wot
She says she went to jail.

------
adamnemecek
Stopped reading at 'trigger warnings'.

~~~
sneak
I dislike the idea that anyone is obligated to provide trigger warnings, too,
but the post has important data in it.

Also, don't be so snarky for the sake of being snarky. Productive snark is
okay.

~~~
adamnemecek
My snarkiness is in fact constructive. It points out that whatever saying
"trigger warnings" is supposed to achieve, it fails at doing that and turns
away potential readers.

~~~
steveklabnik
Can you explain how it fails at achieving its goals? What do you think the
goal of a trigger warning is?

~~~
adamnemecek
It's supposed to warn readers who have had similar experience that the content
of the article could cause flashbacks of their own experiences.

And I somehow can't shake off the feeling that all it does is promote the
victim mentality in the the author and the audience.

Also good job white knighting your pants off in this thread.

~~~
sneak
That's not all it does. It's okay to be wrong. We've all been there.

~~~
adamnemecek
You are right. It's not all it does, it's only the majority of all it does.

------
volvelle
Why has she not reported this to the police? Why did HR not do it also? Sexual
assault is defined in law, and many people are (rightly) convicted and
imprisoned over these serious offences every year. Justine is not averse to
talking about the issue with strangers over the Internet; why is the law any
different?

In order to secure an arrest, the police need to be satisfied a crime has
occurred (multiple witnesses are usually a good way to ascertain, for which
there are at least two). For a conviction, a jury needs to be satisfied. The
best way to do this? With evidence and witnesses.

Even with two witnesses to this case who have come out publicly, no doubt the
bartenders can be found too (location, time, staff time sheets). It's highly
likely there is CCTV footage too, particularly on the bar itself.

Is this genuine? I say that because I was not there, did not witness it, and
do not know any of the people involved; including their judgement under drugs
(alcohol) and their truthfulness. If this is genuine, why not use the full
force of the law to bring a criminal to justice?

~~~
chris_wot
It's often very hard for a victim to report a sexual assault. I hope she does,
but you can't force someone to.

~~~
volvelle
That is simply not the case. This is America, not Africa. There are scores of
charities and organisations that can help. With some cursory Googling:
[http://www.rainn.org/get-information/legal-
information](http://www.rainn.org/get-information/legal-information).

The author is happy to broadcast their account of this alleged assault to the
public, so I don't think they'd have an issue reporting it to the authorities
with the help of a charity. Statute of limitations is a few years on this so
there is still time.

If you've nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. This cuts both ways in a
court of law, and the claims of an accuser are seldom taken at face value
without reliable independent witness. It is innocent until proven guilty, so
that the facts of the case can be used to ascertain guilt.

If the author really cares about justice, about women in IT, about sending a
message, then they will do the right thing and prosecute. Unless of course the
author is lying (wouldn't be the first time it has happened in a sexual
assault case)...

~~~
chris_wot
I'm not saying that their are mechanisms in place for reporting. I'm saying
that its often hard for the victim to seek help in the first place.

~~~
volvelle
See earlier link to one of the numerous charities that explicitly support
female victims of sexual assault. Is it too hard for someone in tech to Google
'Sexual Support $location'?

~~~
chris_wot
It's not hard. The victim needs to be able to in the first place. Often they
feel ashamed, which is crazy, sometimes they blame themselves even though its
not their fault. That's the point I'm making.

~~~
volvelle
And it's moot - _if_ the author is telling the truth.

The author is not ashamed to very publicly make these (as yet) unsubstantiated
claims. I assume talking to an abuse charity in private, who help with a
police prosecution, causes less shame.

The only reason I can think why someone would not go to the police is because
independent witnesses (see earlier references to CCTV, the likely sober
bartenders over drinking buddies) would not back up a claim.

This was a crowded bar, surrounded by many people. I can only surmise that the
reason they have not sought a prosecution is because they are
lying/misleading, and they know they will be caught out.

~~~
volvelle
EDIT:

Having let the furore subside a little, and after reading some more of the
numerous comments and articles, "lying/misleading" is the wrong choice of
words.

Although I do not buy that the accusers DUI and destructive behaviour are
solely caused by this incident, I do not think the author is malicious in
their intent.

Extremely sexualised behaviour led to the alleged assaulter going too far. He
lost his job as a result, but this was not a criminal offence: HR didn't file
a police report, and neither did the alleged victim. No-one else did either.

Embarrassing? Yes. Uncomfortable? Yes. Criminal? No.

~~~
DanBC
> HR didn't file a police report, and neither did the alleged victim. No-one
> else did either.

That's a bizarre definition of a criminal offence.

Many people do not contact law enforcement after sexual assault. This is for a
variety of reasons including shame, stigma, embarrassment, fear of the
forensic procedures, fear of the criminal justice and trial procedures, etc
etc.

~~~
volvelle
It's not a definition of a criminal offence, and nowhere did I imply that.
It's an observation that numerous people witnessed an event or were made aware
of it, yet not one of them contacted the police. The employers response
([http://www.neo.com/2013/10/14/a-note-to-the-community-
about-...](http://www.neo.com/2013/10/14/a-note-to-the-community-about-a-
recently-publicized-event)), made no reference to a crime.

The closest law to not reporting a crime is Misprison of Felony
([http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/4](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/4)),
although that would require management/HR knew a crime had been committed, and
then concealed it. It would be suicide for EdgeCase/Neo to know a sexual
assault had occurred and not report the alleged assaulter. It would be
socially limiting for the immediate sober witnesses too (the bar staff, any
CCTV of the area in question), and those whose judgement was impaired by
alcohol.

No-one commenting was there, so this is all conjecture. If a crime was
committed and no-one reported it, now is the time to do so. The full force of
the law needs to be applied. I do not buy that someone willing to talk about
this publicly online would not want to go through reporting this because of
shame. If a crime has been committed, and they have the evidence, why not
press charges?

------
gknoy
Justine, you are a courageous woman. Thank you for sharing this.

------
ElliotH
It actually doesn't matter if this particular account is true (I think it
almost certainly is, but the point isn't worth arguing). Or any of the other
niggles and counterpoints people are raising.

We can just decide that the story as described is a terrible thing to happen.
We decide that if we see something similar happening, we will try our best to
prevent it.

------
Grue3
This post has confirmed every stereotype I heard about Ruby programmers.

------
dylangs1030
I emailed the author, Justine. I encourage everyone to do the same thing, with
a heartfelt note about what you feel. It might make her day.

I want to remind the more intellectually-inclined of this community that this
does not need to be analyzed and defragmented. Let the story stand on its own
and hold its own weight.

Basically, what I am saying is this - if you have a point that would be really
good in a debate, but won't win you any points at a party, don't make it here,
and don't make it right now. In a situation like this, it's more important for
the community to be supportive or not say anything at all, than to descend
into a maelstrom of arguments about who's judgement is clouded by bias or
who's sexist/insensitive and "doesn't get it."

We don't need to win debates at the cost of empathy right now. We need to show
support in positive, affirming ways.

------
tmslnz
Carried away. Both made a mistake. Both were pissed. He thought he was
scoring, she thought she had to do it to fit in. This is far from being an
assault, rather a gross misunderstanding. He lost the job, she feels like he
needs to be punished further. If anyone boy or girl, man or woman had to claim
assault anytime someone tries the big step on the other, we'd all be in jail.
Did she push him away? No, she "didn't reciprocate". He likely didn't even
notice in the drunken excitement and there you go. They both fucked up, but
one of the two feel more wronged. Also all the framing in the macho software
industry doesn't help, including the employee/employer relation. Peace. And
love. Could it be that simple?

------
Touche
I'm sick of this bullshit convention culture that allows stuff like this to
happen. The CodeMash sponsors should be fleeing from the event and be
embarrassed.

I'm a fucking professional, not a frat boy. I like to socially drink as much
as the next person but a fucking professional convention is not the place for
it. CodeMash is responsible for this incident; they created a situation where
a woman, overwhelming minority in this type of place I'm sure, was compelled
to engage in this person to the point where it escalated to this level. It's
fucking sickening.

I for one vow not to attend another convention where drinking is part of the
event. We are fucking professionals, people. Stop trying to prove how hip you
are.

~~~
empthought
Oh come on -- this was in the hotel bar before the conference even began. It
was not an event in any way associated with Codemash except for the fact that
Justine and her boss were both there for the conference.

Where's your ire and indignation for the bartenders, hotel staff, and the firm
where they both worked? Codemash, its organizers and sponsors aren't even on
the radar for "people not actually the assailant yet are somehow responsible
for the assailant's behavior."

------
avelis
I think one question I have is how do we encourage a culture to not allow
bystanders? It's an open question, but I hypothesize, if Joe was also my boss,
would I have the courage to say something? I want to say I hope I do. I also
hypothesize, what if I did say something before a victim situation took place,
but as a result I was let go. Should I have stayed quiet? I ask these
questions in hopes of shedding light more so on the bystander problem and the
responsibility as people to speak up towards others about behaviors we know
are not ok.

~~~
steveklabnik
> I have is how do we encourage a culture to not allow bystanders?

A lot of this happens because of an inter-relation of other beliefs. For
example, some people do not intervene because they believe that she must
deserve it.

Another factor is that stepping forward means risking yourself. People err on
the side of caution. Maybe they don't have the full story...

I also wonder what I would have done...

------
dwaltrip
What happened is quite awful, but I'm amazed that no one has talked about an
important issue: how much her support group failed her if no one was willing
to talk her regularily or even suggest that she go to therapy. And they all
thought the way to help her through the rest of conference was by getting her
as drunk as often as possible? WTF? I think a lot problems in the following
months could have been lessened with some proper support, therapy, and dealing
with the alcohol issues.

------
nabeards
I am just baffled at how many people feel this was an "accident" or that she's
somehow partly to blame by her actions. A crime was committed, she didn't need
to say "yes" for consent, and it was done _in public_ (Wha?!?). There are at
least two witnesses who came forward prior to her post, and yet people are
still putting out the "maybe she's lying!" argument. What a sad community this
has become.

------
dodyg
What makes Joe a piece of shit is that he hasn't even apologized to her. When
you fucked up this badly, the least you can do is to apologize to your victim.

~~~
general_failure
and you know this, how?

~~~
dodyg
Maybe because I actually read the post?

------
chris_wot
I have a few things to say. This is, frankly, appalling! Justice should never
have been asked to do "body shots", and her boss should have been charged with
a criminal offense.

The second thing I'd like to say is an anecdote from some time ago when I went
to VMWare's vSohere conference in Sydney. I drink alcohol, but only ever in
moderation ad I never get drunk. The reason for this is that in my teenage
years I got drunk once - once! - and soe terrible things happened. I swore
never to get drunk again.

So at the end of the first conference night, when the Hoodoo Gurus were
playing, I was discussing business and shooting he breeze with clients and
VMware partners, with a lass of champagne in one hand. Silly me, but I didn't
pay much attention to th servers, who kept topping up my champagne glass.

I went home drunk, without even being aware of it. I had a hang over the next
day. I don't feel it was my fault in the case. VMware has a responsibilty to
ensure that conference attendees don't get drunk on the conference floor.

Frankly, conferences and alcohol don't mix. It should be stopped fully if
conference organisers can't serve alcohol responsibly.

~~~
sneak
> VMware has a responsibilty to ensure that conference attendees don't get
> drunk on the conference floor.

I don't like drunks or being drunk, but you totally lost me here. You're just
making stuff up.

~~~
chris_wot
In Australia, they do.

[http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/lr2008198/](http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/lr2008198/)

------
scotty79
I am very much against any sort of violence but I think I can make exception
for female slapping male in the face in such situations.

I was once hitting on a girl I had complicated relationship with (close
friends/was my love interest/was her rebound). I was way too physically
insistent (although definitely not to the point described by OP) and she
slapped me. It brought me so much clarity instantly. It kicked me out of the
haze of arousal (no alcohol was involved at all) for long enough to notice
what the f*ck I am just doing. It communicated her point of view to me in an
instant. Far better than any words we exchanged could.

I am (and always was) a man who absolutely abhors sexual assaults (even more
than other kinds of assaults). I always wanted to avoid forcing anyone to do
anything. Yet, slap in the face was perfect for me to prevent me from causing
the person I loved and was incredibly attracted to, further discomfort.

None of the above should be read as any kind of victim blaming. I'm not saying
"she should have just slapped him". I'm firmly behind the idea that there's
never a reason to advice any victim of any incident after the fact and that in
case of assault, motivation of the attacker is not a thing that should ever be
considered. It's totally unimportant that he was aroused, pissed off, drunk,
jolly, grieving whatever. If you apply any sort of physical means against
unwilling person that's the only thing that counts.

Other thing is that I think much of the damage was done by the fact that the
offender hasn't been confronted with the victim. He should be put in position
of powerlessness for her to see. Keeping the whole thing PC and under radar
resulted in her never being able to close the case for herself.

------
beloch
Somewhat tangential query for people who know something about psychiatry:

My standard way of dealing with shit is to repress it. If I get angry, sad,
etc. the first thing I do is squash the emotion (anger is generally the
biggest problem but the easiest to squish). If circumstances may cause that
negative emotion to reoccur, I take reasonable action to prevent it from doing
so whenever possible (It's hard to bring your grandma back to life
unfortunately), but only after going _smoosh_ and possibly sleeping on it.
Some people say you should vent your emotions, but if I do that I just feel
worse.

Here (finally) is the question: Do the scary consequences of repressed
memories that keep popping up in movies and TV actually exist? If something
horrifyingly traumatic happens to me and I just repress it and move on, am I
setting myself up for trouble down the road? I ask this because there's no
doubting a bad thing happened to Justine but, were I in her shoes, I'd have
repressed that shit right then and there. I wouldn't have done nothing, but
_squish_ would be my definite step #1.

~~~
sneak
It's different for different people. I know many people end up having to
somehow internally confront and process things that happened to them that they
had previously deferred.

I don't really think a queue is the right mental model. If you suffer trauma
and choose not to feel, but indeed have memory, you must continue to be just
as committed to choosing not to feel for as long as you remember. Failing
that, you will eventually have emotions about the trauma at some point. I
don't think people are very good at keeping those types of defenses in place
for years upon years.

------
Sagat
A tragic event but I really don't understand how making a public blog post is
supposed to make anything better.

~~~
steveklabnik
Please read the last paragraph. She didn't want to make this post, but an
outcry for details from the community forced her hand.

~~~
Sagat
I did, it's just that they didn't make it clear who the "community" was and
how they had gotten wind of the problem, and what exactly they were demanding
and how they were demanding it. In any case, I still think she should have
gone through a different route. Why should masses of strangers dictate whether
or not you have reveal personal information?

I really wish I could help this person (assuming the story is accurate, since
some HN posters have pointed out that there are conflicting versions) but the
only thing I can think of saying to her is to keep it within the circle of
persons who are actually concerned by the whole incident, and seek reparations
through legal channels. Nothing good comes out of involving a bunch of
internet followers. I'd rather a formal investigation was made instead of
witnessing a bunch of armchair detectives harass O'Brien without knowing all
of the facts. One of my friends has had to deal with false accusations of a
similar nature coming from his deranged ex, so I'd like to know beyond
reasonable doubt what happened before thirsting for vengeance.

~~~
steveklabnik
There are not conflicting versions.

You had to read Twitter to see the deluge of requests from Rubyists wanting
gory details.

Making it public helps keep others safe by allowing them to know to be very
careful around someone while he is drinking.

------
klaustopher
I don't want to comment on the post itself or the comments. But one thing
confuses me. Please help me to understand: Is it a custom thing in the US that
legal issues like this are handled by an HR department within the company
instead of the legal system?

The blog post states that she reported it to HR. Over here, if something like
this came to their knowledge, they would be required to forward this to the
proper authorities.

She can recount the whole incident and has at least two witnesses that confirm
her story (more might show up during a police investigation). No authority (at
least in this part of the world) would refuse to investigate this case and
bring it in front of a court. Is this different in the US?

------
mattsfrey
Saw this comment on her blog, pretty much sums up my sentiments exactly:

twisted says:

Since this entered public debate i feel the need to leave my own remarks.

\- Unfortunately, since we are fallable human beings, awkward situations will
always happen. It’s mostly about how we behave during these and how we
confront these afterwards that makes the ‘story’.

\- The chance for such awkward situations rises even more so when intoxicated,
which everyone seems to have been, by their own chosing, and when reflecting
on such situations one should always be aware of the fact that they might not
have been in that situation or avoided some of it, had they been in full
control of themselves (and even influence others).

\- There are multiple ways to deal with such an incident, both to resolve the
awkwardness between the parties invloved as well as with any personal trauma.

\- Drinking those troubles away must not have helped your own mental condition
and you should seek some kind of outside help & support. Putting this in the
public space, i hope you are prepared to deal with this for a while longer and
not only on your own terms.

Don’t pull the ‘in a mens field’ argument as to why you agreed to do body
shots. It was a conference, they were colleagues, you were drunk, it was a bad
idea. Could group dynamics have been playing a role there? It would surprise
me if not. It was a bad suggestion by him, and it was a bad decision by you to
do it. Even if things didn’t spin out of control from then on, i think anyone
that’s had a few drinks too many or witnessed someone who had, on a company /
wedding / other semi-official party has done things that they would later have
to digest in one way or another. Be it because they were just plain
embarassing, or because they lead to inappropriate actions with potential
consequences. This could be smashing in a window, violence, emotional
outbursts, just plain old puking embarassment.. or, well, sexual things, for
the sake of my point let’s assume the choice here is random. We’ve all been
there at least once, or witnessed it with others at least once in our lives.

So who’s to blame? All of you are, to some extent. This was not a case of
planned, deliberate, sexual assault. It was a gathering of intoxicated people
that spun out of control and produced a consequencial situation. In the key-
turning points leading up to it both of you made bad decisions. In the
disarming-phase both of you made bad decisions. And in the resolutions and
consequences both of you made bad decisions.

Key turning points leading up to the event, where BOTH of you could have made
better decisions? \- stopped drinking earlier \- remained more distanced & in
control, perhaps parting with the group to ‘freshen up’ \- neither suggest not
participate in body shots \- not touch & not tolerate touching, BEFORE it got
too weird \- realize the own error (Joe), standing up for yourself immediately
(You) Please note how each involved could have changed the outcome here. There
is no single person at complete fault here, up to the point where you should
have clearly said NO and he should have clearly accepted that and apologized.

Of course it is obvious that it is wrong to start touching in the first place.

Joe shouldn’t have started with the inappropriate touching. He shouldn’t have
done that.

As ‘the guy with the company credit card’ he should have been more responsible
in getting everyone drunk, including himself. Apparently even he lost control
of his proper judgement and he will have to deal with the consequences in a –
i dare say – similarly difficult way. He has a family, they too will probably
read this. Add to this that ‘men are usually at fault’.

In your report i do not see any mention of you telling him a NO because of
YOUR concern for yourself. You should have done that.

Inappropriate things happen when drinking. Don’t get me wrong, i’m not
defending Joe here but i want to be bluntly realistic. Wether we like it or
not, and wether anyone wants to name this sexist or not, the fact remains that
we reproduce by pairing male and female, involving a not-so-hard-to-understand
set of triggers, acts leading up to conception.

Drinking lowers the threshold of control over inappropriateness. And drinking
out of someones navel is a bodily undertaking involving visual, physical
stimuli and smell, which transports very powerful hormonal agents. Compare
this to sitting across desks in a semi-sterile restaurant setting, it’s
inarguably A LOT FURTHER into our pairing process.

This makes the potential for such an incident not only incredibly obvious but
also forseeable. Both of you should have known better. Despite all the gender
discussions, equal rights movements, sexist-calling and so forth, we won’t
refute biology just by force of will and most of our society is based on
certain ‘agreements’ to keep basic primate instincts under control. Wishful
thinking won’t change that, neither will blaming men (or women if you will,
although there is a clear bias here in current times). I’m not saying that
inappropriate actions are OK, neither am i promoting that sexual assault
should be tolerated, what i’m saying is that under these circumstances the
former will continue to happen (and this is only such a big issue as we let it
become and make of it) and we have to deal with it, while the second, the
assault, is not really applicable here if you ask me.

The way this whole situation has played out is only one of many possible and i
would assume, also based on how public this has become by now, this is easily
one of the worse cases of dealing with it.

I will leave you with two hints.

The first is, you should stand up for yourself more. In a healthy way. You
worried about his wife, your job, while you should have acted in yor own best
interest. With enough self confidence i can easily envision turning this into
much less of an incident than it has – both for yourself and for Joe.

The second is, that you should confront yourself and then others earlier.
Drinking during the conference, the time after it, letting it rot your own
mental state, that of your relationship and ultimately your desire for
‘justice’ regarding Joes exit seems an unhealthy way to work out issues, no
matter what kind.

Welcome to Berlin. People get drunk here too, and people undergo the mating
circus here as well. I hope you will recover from your trauma soon. And i hope
you can accept your own role in this as well as distinguish and define Joes
mistakes. I also hope he will manage the same things and will be more
respectful and responsible in the future. Maybe the two of you can one day
have the conversation over this that you should have had the next morning.

~~~
wilkie
Now _this_ is some first-class victim blaming. :(

~~~
lawnchair_larry
That is extremely level headed and on point. It's not victim blaming in the
least.

~~~
wilkie
Actually, pretty much every point in this is victim blaming.

~~~
general_failure
Huh? How did you conclude she is a victims from that blogpost?

This is what I call naïve. People will believe anything and everything in
blogs.

~~~
chris_wot
How did you _not_ conclude she was a victim from that blog, and the two
corroborating logs?!?

------
gibbitz
Consentual non consentual, they both needed to be letgo. Just because everyone
does it doesn't make it okay to get drunk with coworkers on business trips.
The company handled this the only way they could. If she wanted to own
victimhood she should have pressed charges. It sickens me that she suffered so
much, andiI hope she feels better getting this off her chest, but no matter
the obviousness of wrong doing, in our society you have to push the
authorities for the justice you deserve. The system doesn't do that for you.

------
general_failure
I see this whole blog like skydiving off a plane. You know what it involves.
Mid-dive you cannot change your mind. You have to live with your decision,
it's too late to go back. It's called being 'responsible', 'mature', 'growing
up'. You need to understand what your decisions mean. If you keep your head,
there's a good chance you will make it to the ground safely. It was surely
traumatic but you are atleast living.

------
armandososa
I simply can't understand how smart people on their own will gather around
with the only purpose of ingesting chemical compounds that are designed to
make them stupid.

~~~
cefarix
This is one of the things that most baffles me about alcohol culture in
general, but specially in the American tech industry which is supposed to have
smart people. Although my primary reason for abstaining from alcohol is a
religious one, I also certainly agree with your point from a secular point of
view as well.

------
rhaphazard
I'd like to point out that alcohol does reduce inhibition but doesn't actually
cause you to perform any action you wouldn't willingly do sober.

------
brohee
"Hugs hand forehead kisses have always been a big part of my relationships
with my co-workers. We were always a tight knit family. But now I felt it was
all wrong."

Possibly because it was all wrong... Not that it excuses nor explains the
assault, a drunkard could possibly assault anyone for any reason, but
colleagues are not family nor friends...

------
Kiro
Does his latest tweet has anything to do with this? If so it looks like he
will post his version soon, for whatever it's worth.

~~~
steveklabnik
> If so it looks like he will post his version soon

Nope:

> I will not be commenting more publicly. If you know me, I'm happy to talk in
> person. Thank you.

[https://twitter.com/objo/status/387615899470934016](https://twitter.com/objo/status/387615899470934016)

~~~
Kiro
[https://mobile.twitter.com/objo/status/385575128257822720?sc...](https://mobile.twitter.com/objo/status/385575128257822720?screen_name=objo)

~~~
steveklabnik
Yes, your tweet was right before the one I posted.

------
chris_wot
I'm curious as to why this is now not on the front page?

~~~
steveklabnik
Flags and lack of upvotes :/

~~~
chris_wot
There are a LOT of upvotes.

~~~
steveklabnik
Right but they have all been from a while back. The number has been stable for
a while.

------
icecreampain
This article confuses me.

1\. Why do work collegues party with each other? Isn't work for work and non-
work for non-work? Why mix the two? That's asking for shit, throwing
professionality out the window. At my recent places of employ I have
religously avoided any private contact with my collegues.

This gives me an air of professionality and a sense of trust = "Icecreampain
will treat me fairly because he is not best friends with the boss or married
to the CEO".

2\. Body shots, in my world, are reserved to college students who are going to
party and fuck all night, and ... yeah, that's about it. I can't see 40 och 60
year olds doing body shots because it's the in thing to do at a bar.

3\. Writing about such an experience, a drunken stupor at a bar, and accusing
people of this and that smacks of, as others have said, the behaviour that
that false Adria Richards character displayed at Pycon. She accused people of
sexism while previously having written sexist and racist articles herself,
then trying to get social media on her side by photographing a couple of real
developers - just to get herself a few more minutes of fame.

I can't condone exposing other people's privacy like this and, thanks to
people like the hypocrite Adria Richards, I'm always suspect of any cries of
"assault" or "rape". Too many people have cried wolf for me to automatically
believe one person's account of a situation. And the witnesses? I'm suspectful
of their allegiances: see point 1.

If a crime was committed it's up to the courts system to decide, not her or
her blog followers. Even if the courts dismiss the case, at least her police
report will contribute to statistics.

So why not report it to the police (preferrably the day after)?

~~~
kalleth
I'm not going to speak to your other points, but I agree with your final
point.

We have a rule of law in our country (the UK), the same as you do in yours.
This smells like a lynching.

I think generally it's important to believe the victim, but also believe that
the accused is innocent until proven otherwise, in a court of law, by a jury
of their peers. Our criminal justice systems cannot work unless this is true.

Everyone is so insistent that victims be believed that they forget about
'innocent until proven guilty'.

~~~
tommorris
Innocent until proven guilty means the law needs to presume that you are
innocent until a court proves you guilty.

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard not a requirement that
everybody in society adheres to in their own personal judgement.

If the courts think you are guilty of a crime, they can send you to jail. If I
think you are guilty of a crime, I can't send you to jail. The difference in
practical results is why there's a difference in the evidential standards
used.

------
icecreampain
I do so very much enjoy the posts that say "Joe is an absolute asshole, pig
and chauvinist and should be led out to the shed and shot, but Justine
xyz...".

It says a lot about society that in order for anyone to criticize a woman, one
must first seek absolution by criticizing the man first, and harsher, than the
woman.

