
Tuning out: How brains benefit from meditation - 6ren
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-11-tuning-brains-benefit-meditation.html
======
jessriedel
The real question is whether it's a good thing to stop "mind wandering" when
it hasn't reached the level of disorder. From the perspective of evolution, it
almost certainly has a purpose. Paul Graham pointed out that its probably
useful for problem solving:

<http://www.paulgraham.com/top.html>

I wonder if it would be good to have the ability to better focus one's self
when one's mind is wandering into unproductive subjects (e.g. agonizing over
an ex) without necessarily getting to the point where your default mode has
been changed so much as to prevent insights in the shower (and instead being
deeply aware of the hot water).

~~~
asmala
I think we need to differentiate between different types of wandering here. I
think we can agree that letting our minds roam looking for creative solutions
and creative questions is a good think. But it's less useful to have our minds
stuck in a loop ("Peanut butter or jam? PB or J?" ad infinitum).

Anecdotal evidence based on four years of active meditation would in my case
seem to indicate that the jittery loopiness lessens while the capacity for
creative wandering increases.

I would conjencture that our minds are over-stimulated and hence unable settle
down to make room for the truly novel.

~~~
StacyC
_Anecdotal evidence based on four years of active meditation would in my case
seem to indicate that the jittery loopiness lessens while the capacity for
creative wandering increases._

This is exactly my experience as well. After about three years of meditation I
have also found that I almost never get angry any more - things that used to
piss me off or frustrate me just kind of roll off now, and I can really think
more objectively about them and tackle problems in a constructive way.

I think one of the keys with meditation is to become the observer of our
thoughts and not self-identify with them. You are not your thoughts.

~~~
thesz
Simpler explanation could be just hormonal levels changes.

For example, increased testosterone levels correspond to increased stress
tolerance. The testosterone levels increase in man and woman up to age of
35-40 years.

So if you just sit and do nothing, your body could work in favor of your mind,
if you're young enough. Chances are you were.

~~~
asmala
Hmm, interesting. I can definitely see how age-related changes in the
endocrine system could cause certain improvements that are similar to the
effects of meditation. And being as it is that I'm still 29, that could be a
factor.

But if I'm reading you correctly, you seem to imply that all the benefits
mentioned could be explained away by age-related hormonal changes. I find that
hard to believe based on the strong correlation I experience between active
meditation practice and greatly increased mental ability. It is particularly
noteworthy that I'm able to observe a clear decline in my capability to stay
equanimous and focused whenever I have had longer periods away from practice,
which should not be the case if we were dealing with mere age-related
endocrine changes.

~~~
thesz
Long time effects like better anger control could be explained by age related
endocrine changes.

Short time effects like "staying focused" could or could not be explained by
that. I think I have just too little data to explain them at all. All I can do
is to speculate.

So I begin speculating.

Let's say that by meditation you try to calm your mind. You lower your stress
hormone, cortisol. By doing that you elevate your testosterone level.

[http://www.ehow.com/about_5162836_effects-cortisol-
testoster...](http://www.ehow.com/about_5162836_effects-cortisol-
testosterone.html)

Does that mechanics explain meditation effects?

Myself, I prefer to walk a forty minutes or longer to boost my mind next day
and to lift (pretty heavy - 160+ kg) weights for testosterone.

Both activities are scientifically proven to help mind. Aerobic exercise
provides brain boosting:
[http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=aerobic+exe...](http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=aerobic+exercise)
Weight lifting increases self control:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/26/health/research/26exer.htm...](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/26/health/research/26exer.html)

I think I should write a presentation about all that.

~~~
asmala
Your reasoning makes sense. There's a fair amount of recent research (see
"meditation" via Google Scholar) indicating that meditation does indeed reduce
cortisol levels and hence that could be one pathway for its effects.

That said, mounting scientific evidence indicates that meditation also changes
our brain structure in ways that have AFAIK not been observed with exercise.

For me my own experience would seem to confirm this. The benefits I observe
from meditation are both qualitatively and quantitatively different from what
I gain from exercise (both aerobic and heavy weights).

~~~
thesz
There's the question: are those meditation-induced changes in the brain
structure beneficial?

Experienced meditation practicioners can fire almost all neurons in their
brains. In MRT it looks like epileptical seizure.

So I stay on the "don't meditate, you'll be safer" side.

~~~
asmala
Interesting and provocative question. I suppose that there's no way of
objectively knowing if the changes are beneficial or even safe. (Come to think
of it, how would we even define beneficial?)

That said, I find your caution perhaps unwarranted. Many other circumstances
are known to cause changes in brain-structure, e.g. growing up bilingual, but
I think it would be rather unwarranted to warn against childhood language
learning on the basis of this.

Personally I am content with the proof of my own experience; the changes I see
in my own psyche and mental performance are entirely positive.

------
nate
My wife just bought me a beginner's mediation class at the Peace School in
Chicago. We just finished our third class. I'll write up a few notes about it
later this week on my blog (<http://n8.tumblr.com>). But it's been pretty cool
and positive. I'm surprised how challenging it is to even meditate for 5
minutes a day. Here's a good book I've been enjoying on the brain that
introduces some meditation stuff and benefits [http://www.amazon.com/Train-
Your-Brain-Get-Happy/dp/14405118...](http://www.amazon.com/Train-Your-Brain-
Get-Happy/dp/1440511810)

------
ypcx
[I'm sleepy so bear with me.] Meditation is extremely easy - for a while. I'm
interested in it, I try to do it regularly, but it's not easy to return to it
every day, or during a busy day. We see a news article about it, we talk about
it, some of us will try it for a while, but in a month from now, all of us
will be at the same point as right now - not doing it anymore. It's hard to
stress how important is to practice regularly, as then it starts to be
_really_ effective. In my life, I'm returning to meditation in waves, in short
periods of practice, but for some (possibly material, possibly immaterial)
reason, I want more. My aim is to find a way how to meditate sustainably, with
the least effort, and how to remind oneself every day that he should meditate.
Mind you, I don't know if this is even viable, as sometimes your mind revolts,
and when it does, it will (on the background) use your best intelligence and
creativity to avoid the practice. I think that not even smartphone apps can
help you in this regard. Speaking of which, so far I've seen two worth
mentioning (I haven't tried them yet), this one for iPhone
[http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/lotus-bud-meditation-
timer/id...](http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/lotus-bud-meditation-
timer/id441875698?ls=1&mt=8) and this one for Android
<https://market.android.com/details?id=com.nwalex.meditation>. But as I said,
I'm not sure these can help in a long run. The problem is that as you keep
practicing (internal-awareness) meditation regularly, it will change your
external reality (a.k.a. your life) very profoundly, only making it harder to
keep practicing every day. There's a lot more to write about this, I could go
on and on for many more pages - distractions, formal vs informal, beating your
daily energy deficiency, cheating the thought-switching mechanism that makes
you day-dream during meditation, etc.. but I want to put this in a readable
and practically usable form first, if that is possible at all. (Edit: oh, and
it must be a _very short_ form - if you write a book about meditation, then -
I believe - you have already failed to deliver what matters, as in that case
the reader will simply get satisfied/their energy depleted with the reading
itself, and their focus moves to something else.)

~~~
xavoy
I use the iPhone app called 'Soto Timer' when I'm away. It's free and allows
you to configure multiple periods (so you can sit, rest or kinhin, sit, rest
or kinhin etc)

Sitting every day is most important. There is no substitute for this. A good
way to convince yourself of the benefits, and to reinvigorate your practice,
is to throw yourself into the deep end and do a retreat. The 'container' of a
'retreat' (retreat is an inadequate word, if you've ever done a proper retreat
you'll know why) allows you to sit for extended periods and remain mindful
when doing other simple activities like cutting food for your lunch.

As you said though, meditation is a 'practice'. There is no 'attainment' - if
you're not practicing, the benefits are basically nil. As such, you need to
practice for it to be worthwhile.

The best time to sit is first thing in the morning. Set your alarm, get out of
bed (no excuses) and sit down. This is good for two reasons. 1) if you do
nothing else all day, at least you've done your meditation and 2) as you've
not had a chance to distract yourself yet, you're more likely to remain
present. Of course you'll distract yourself with your plans for your day and
convince yourself that you don't have time for this, that you're too tired,
but these are just stories like all the others you tell yourself. Let them go,
and return to your breath, again and again and again.

~~~
ypcx
This is true. To sit right after getting out of bed in the morning, that
actually might be the only chance for a regular practice, in this hectic
material world. One usually has to visit the bathroom, and that can be enough
for the day thoughts and habits to fully kick in - one grabs a tea, a piece of
dark organic chocolate, talks with their partner, pets their dog - realizing
few hours later or sometime during the day (if at all), that he actually
skipped a sitting, but despite that, morning is most probably the best time. I
know, once the initial one or two-week period is fought through, then the
energies are different and practicing is easier ... at least until life
creates its next whirlpool day and kicks one off the track. Waves. Anyway.
Meditation is the art of coming back after losing track, in micro (the
practice) and in macro (the waves), and the great thing is, that every next
wave is better, because one puts to use what he has learnt before.

------
programnature
A bunch of the people FMRI'd in this study were pulled from the pragmatic
dharma movement: [http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/04/pragmatic-
dha...](http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/04/pragmatic-dharma-on-
rise.html)

------
rd108
The two areas highlighted in the article show prefrontal cortex (front of
brain) and PCC (towards the back) shutting down. The prefrontal cortex is
associated with executive attention and reasoning, while PCC appears to be
differentially dialed up or down in conditions with altered states of
consciousness (like people under anesthesia, in a coma, or apparently
meditating.) Shameless plug: We're using these neuroscientific insights to
design a meditation self-tracking tool at <http://brainbot.me> now.

~~~
rsanheim
Of course, the very idea of tracking and working on "improving" via meditation
goes against the core idea of zen meditation itself.

But I'm interested in your startup anyway. :)

edit: in fairness, there are many types of meditation beyond zen.

~~~
VMG
> Of course, the very idea of tracking and working on "improving" via
> meditation goes against the core idea of zen meditation itself.

The - excuse me - postmodern gobbledygook of some schools are is what has
turned me off meditation again and again.

I'd love to follow a rationalist, scientific school of meditation that has
mind improvement as a goal.

~~~
asmala
In that case Daniel Ingram's book Mastering the Core Teachings on the Buddha
might be a good place to start.

I think it's also important not to throw away the baby with the bath water;
just because the techniques are explained in an archaic language and seemingly
inseparable from a traditionalist cultural tradition, doesn't mean they do not
produce results. Still probably a good idea to start with something easily
approachable so you can start to discern what's effective and what's just
cultural cargo culting.

------
cmer
I'm getting increasingly interested in meditation, mainly because it seems
like it could make me use my brain better.

I have no clue where to start though. Anyone has info to share? I'm a total
noob to this. Thanks!

~~~
jessriedel
I'd like to piggy back on this comment and ask if anyone knows a good
introduction to meditation from a western/scientific/rational point of view.
I'm open to the idea that meditation could help me use my brain more
effectively, but I'm extremely wary of the religious/spiritual angle (even if
the origins of meditiation are religious/spiritual.)

~~~
xavoy
Western Zen is very western/scientific/rational. Most of the teachers in the
lineage I belong to are also psychologists, psychotherapists or counselors
(but your teacher is NOT your therapist). Stephen Bachelor has been a Tibetan
AND a Zen monk, but is now neither. He wrote a book called "Buddhism Without
Beliefs" which might suit you.

Note though that it is almost impossible to separate meditation as it relates
to your mind, and meditation as it relates to your bodily actions. When you
start to understand the way your mind works, and how everything fits together,
you would have to be pretty ignorant to not alter your actions accordingly.
Indeed, using your brain 'more effectively' can only happen by applying what
you learn.

(IE, there is no state that you 'attain' and from then on you are 'more
effective'. Meditation is a 'practice' and so you must practice it, you don't
attain anything at all)

edit: correcting misspelled book title. Should be "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
not "Buddhist Without Beliefs".

~~~
cmer
I was also about to purchase the book as well only to find out it is not
available on the Kindle. I realized that I never actually read the paperbooks
I buy so I figured I'd stop buying them altogether.

Are you aware of great alternative book that might be available in digital
format?

~~~
xavoy
Unfortunately (I'm a kindle lover too!) the best books on Zen are either out
of print completely or not available digitally :( Here's a couple of good
lists thought:

[http://www.sfzc.org/zc/display.asp?catid=1,5,168&pageid=...](http://www.sfzc.org/zc/display.asp?catid=1,5,168&pageid=571)
<http://szc.org.au/reading.html>

Given the context of this discussion, I would recommend reading Charlotte Joko
Beck's books. Specifically Nothing Special, which is available digitally on
Amazon :)

~~~
cmer
I caved and ended up buying BOTH Buddhism Without Beliefs and Nothing Special.
I got Nothing Special for $4 (used/paperback) so I figured I'll just throw it
in.

Looking forward to some reading!

------
tygorius
It would be nice to see the article itself. I would be curious to see how/if
they controlled for selection bias. That is, the summary indicates they took
images of the brains of novices and experienced meditators. It does _not_
indicate that they took images tracking changes in brain activity as people
progressed from novice to experienced.

I'm not saying that it's implausible that neuroplasticity effects can be found
in the default mode network, just that those with the strongest symptoms might
not easily (or ever) get to the "experienced" stage and the implied relief.

------
xavoy
Meditation isn't about tuning OUT, it's about tuning IN.

Also, it's not 'suppressing' anything, it's just not paying the 'me' thoughts
the attention you normally would.

------
tokenadult
After reading this press release carefully, I notice that the paper mentioned
in the press release was submitted to the Proceedings of the National Academy
of Sciences, which is essentially a publication that accepts most submissions
from members of the "club," that is the National Academy. I wonder what
additional steps would have to be taken to produce a paper that could get
published in a more stringently reviewed journal. While we all look up other
literature on the subject, I thought it would be a good idea here to mention
once again my favorite hacker's guide to how to read research reports, by
Peter Norvig, director of research at Google:

<http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html>

~~~
epistasis
It's a mistake to assume that this was not peer reviewed. The PNAS has two
tracks, stringent peer review and direct submission from members of the
National Academy of Sciences. Every article is labelled as to whether it was
reviewed or not, and the vast majority of PNAS articles I see are peer
reviewed. Those articles that go through peer-review are typically of
extremely high quality and impact; it takes a _very_ strong paper to make it
through peer review at PNAS, typically.

------
gojomo
Meditation affects people differently; for a few people it is associated with
seizures or other problems. See this article for more info:

<http://www.sfweekly.com/content/printVersion/313883>

~~~
xavoy
That article highlights the need for having a good teacher, and teaching
meditation together with ethical guidelines. It also smells very much like
someone has something to lose by meditations rising popularity (ie, drug
companies pushing the mentioned Prozac). It's full of slimy, non commital
wording (like many, a lot and some) and also full of experiences that are made
to sound terribly negative but don't really matter at all.

Meditation _can_ make you hallucinate, it _can_ make you burst into tears or
fits of laughter, it can do a lot of things (although I've never known
meditation to CAUSE seizures?! Come on... Show me some proof of that.) That is
why working with a _good_ teacher is very important. In their 40+ years of
experience, they've been there. You have to apply to go on our retreats, and
if a teacher, for whatever reason, doesn't think it's a good idea that you go,
then he or she will encourage you not to and if it was required would prevent
you from going, although I've never known it to come to this. There are
probably people that need to go to a counselor, therapist or psychologist
before sitting with themselves for long periods.

Furthermore (and in my humble opinion) you should get the hell away from any
meditation teacher that implies you're channeling a spirit guide or speaking
to God. There's some fruity 'Guru's' out there. Do your research. Don't
believe or expect miracles. Don't submit to anyone. Act ethically at all times
and take some responsibility for your own actions.

------
timsally
Can anyone find a copy of the paper? I haven't been able to dig one up.

~~~
lije
I don't think it's out yet. PNAS publications come out every Tuesday so maybe
it'll be out in tomorrow's issue.

------
itmag
I am a self-help junky, and I am trying to get started with meditation
currently.

Here's a bunch of meditations I found, from the author of "Buddha's Brain":
<https://sites.google.com/site/psychospiritualtools/>

His web site: <http://www.wisebrain.org/>

------
WayneDB
I learned to meditate by reading and listening to Krishnamurti (among many
others). "Meditation is not different from daily life" he says. "It can be
done all day." It's exactly like being in _the zone_ that you get into when
you code, play video games, run, exercise, etc.

You can do it better and without needing a crutch activity by consciously
shaping your thought/energy patterns; by constantly focus your mind on pure
observance and acceptance of all that exists in the current moment without
allowing "I/me/mine/he said/she said" ego thoughts to take over (by simply
realizing and reaffirming that those thoughts are devoid of value). The ego
driven thoughts go away after consistent practice, as does the suffering
associated with such thoughts.

Seriously, if you are sensitive to "what so-and-so said about you on Facebook,
or what your rivals, boss, friends, etc think" or if your brain just races and
races away into the night and you can't seem to shut it down...meditation is
the best way to fix all that. Get in the non-ego zone and just stay there all
day. And do some exercise, preferably Yoga which is all about _balance_ ,
which is what life and your mind and consciousness are all about. Don't think
about it or "try" or plan or obsess over how it's going to change your life or
what people will think about it. Just say this is what I'm doing now and go
ahead and do it without ego. It is a huge relief.

[http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-
dai...](http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-daily-
quote/20091119.php?t=Meditation)

[http://www.krishnamurtiaustralia.org/articles/meditation%201...](http://www.krishnamurtiaustralia.org/articles/meditation%201.htm)

~~~
tokenadult
_by constantly focus your mind on pure observance and acceptance of all that
exists in the current moment_

I'd like to follow up, please, on what these words mean. Does "acceptance of
all that exists in the current moment" mean that demonstrators at Tahrir
Square should be accepting of a dictatorial government? I'm curious about this
issue, because I lived for several years in a predominantly Buddhist country
that was a dictatorship the first time I lived there. I (and other Americans
who lived there) often wondered why the common people in that country put up
with the dictatorship for so long. Is there a limit beyond which acceptance
stops? When a person is out of the state of "constantly focus your mind on
pure observance and acceptance of all that exists in the current moment," what
comes next? What actions do people take to grapple with problems on the basis
of such shaping of thought patterns? I'm curious about this, so I appreciate
any response you have to these questions.

~~~
vidarh
Personally I interpret a large part of acceptance as stopping the endless
stream of "what-if?"'s and doubt and stress and fear surrounding what happens
in our lives.

When faced with an event, ruminating endlessly about what might have been if
you did X instead of Y, or worrying about what might come next stops you from
actually being free to focus your attention where you want it: On what
deliberate action you should be taking, and on enjoying the good things in
your life.

And that might have the effect of inaction in many cases. For "common people
in that country" you mentioned it might very well be that on consideration an
uprising was far down the list of what actually mattered to their lives. I
don't know what impact it had on their day to day lives, and how that measures
up with other things, such as caring for their families and making a decent
living. Or maybe "acceptance" had nothing to do with it and they were just
scared.

But priorities shift once you take a more deliberate view and are not driven
by anguish about a situation but about considering carefully what actually
matters to you.

A simple example:

You look at the clock, and realize you're late. There's no way you can make it
to where you were meant to be in time.

You can choose to get stressed out and frantic, but it's already too late -
you won't change that, all you achieve is to be stressed out and frantic and
running around like a headless chicken while life passes you by.

Does it matter if you're late?

Maybe it does, but it still doesn't help to stress out about it when you
should instead focus on what the best course of action is. Perhaps it is as
simple as a phone call to let someone know you will be late. Perhaps you miss
a train, but can just take a later one. Why stress over it? Even _if_ being
late is a disaster, the stress achieves nothing. It is unhelpful and just
makes things worse. So you accept that you will be late and take deliberate
action to minimize the impact of being late, and you accept the consequences
you can't mitigate rather than make things worse by feeling sorry for
yourself.

Maybe it doesn't matter, and you should just breathe calmly and accept that
you will be late and since it's not such a big deal you proceed as you
otherwise would and enjoy your walk wherever you were headed and take in the
view and enjoy the nice day. Maybe you won't look at the clock in the first
place, because you know it does not really matter what time it is.

Most things people get terribly worked up over are never worth caring much
about in the first place, yet we get worked up and stressed out and make
stupid mistakes or feel miserable for no good reason. Focus your attention and
energy on the things that _are_ worth caring about, and even then try to make
a clear distinction between deliberate action and feelings or actions that are
not helpful.

------
kahawe
An interesting detail to add: at least one mental health expert has told me
that meditating on a regular basis can be a very powerful tool for fighting
depressions and other psychological issues; the number of patients suffering
from those issues amongst people who have been meditating for years seem to be
extremely low.

Now a question for all you hackers: how to get started on meditating without
running into the arms of some obscure cults and sects? And pointers?

~~~
gnaffle
I found this to be a good introduction:
<http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html>

~~~
vidarh
Second Mindfulness in Plain English. It is excellent, and though written by a
Buddhist monk it is for the most part careful about separating the (little)
material on Buddhism out as mostly contextual information, and point out that
it is not necessary for the meditation practice itself.

I also recommend a series of podcasts by Gil Fronsdal at Audiodharma called
Introduction to Meditation: <http://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1762/>

It covers largely the same approach as Mindfulness in Plain English and fits
great in with the book. It contains a series of short guided meditations.

It is also "cult free". While Fronsdal is Buddhist, he deliberately makes fun
of how being a Buddhist or knowing much about Buddhism isn't necessary, for
example by pointing out how mindfulness meditation is being taught as a stress
reduction technique at places like Kaiser but "without mentioning the B-word",
and that's about the full extent of the mention of Buddhism in the recordings.

~~~
gnaffle
Thank you, this was a nice podcast series. Added to my recommendations. :)

