
Sense sleep tracker maker Hello is shutting down - rbanffy
https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/12/sense-sleep-tracker-maker-hello-is-winding-down-and-looking-for-a-buyer/
======
troydavis
Here's what I emailed Hello in December 2016 (twice, tickets 45372 & 47913).
No reply
([https://twitter.com/troyd/status/814588368814125057](https://twitter.com/troyd/status/814588368814125057)),
so I didn't buy one. Sounds like my statement "Sense is very well capitalized
right now" was wrong.

If you're considering buying a device that depends on a service, send an email
like the one below first. And if you're starting a hardware company, start
thinking about this from the beginning. Even just explicitly stating that the
device will stop working if the company ceases operations is better than not
telling consumers anything.

Separate but related:
[https://twitter.com/hello/status/603941261201043456](https://twitter.com/hello/status/603941261201043456)
was someone requesting an API back in May of 2015, then many more responses
requesting the same thing.

Subject: Provisions for Sense devices if Hello fails

First off, congrats on making a fantastic-looking device. I have a somewhat
unusual question about Sense devices, in the wake of Basis's failure and shut
down.

Obviously Sense is very well capitalized right now. What provisions has Hello
made for the continuation of the product if Hello the company fails?

For example, have you committed to at least open-sourcing the protocol specs,
if not necessarily your implementation of the server?
[https://twitter.com/hello/status/603941261201043456](https://twitter.com/hello/status/603941261201043456)
doesn't inspire much confidence that the device is meant to survive Hello's
failure, nor that Hello is considering this at all.

~~~
lazyjeff
I wrote the "hacking the hello sense" article someone below mentioned,
[http://jeffhuang.com/extracting_my_data_from_the_hello_sense...](http://jeffhuang.com/extracting_my_data_from_the_hello_sense.html)

I think it wouldn't be too difficult to diassemble/modify the Hello Sense App
to redirect your data to a custom server that at least logs the received data.
Would anyone else be interested in making this happen to have an option when
the servers shut down? Otherwise, the app won't work at all.

------
sundvor
Before they put their product to sleep, they really ought to have done what
Pebble ultimately did - one last update to decouple from the cloud. Bravo.

[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.getpebble....](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.getpebble.android.basalt)

~~~
taneq
Huh. If Pebble had done that from the start, I'd have stayed a customer of
theirs. Still, good on 'em. I choose to believe it was the engineers finally
getting a say after being forced to do all of the creepy spyware stuff.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Pebble didn't do "creepy spyware stuff", from what I know. Are there any
stories I missed?

~~~
taneq
It wasn't a big story, more that they:

1) Basically piped _everything_ through their own servers, including a huge
amount of personal information, and

2) Had very careful weasel-wording in their privacy policy which gave them
carte blanche to store and then sell any data they had about you.

It's _possible_ that they didn't track this stuff and were just covering
themselves, but I had quite a long email conversation with one of their
lawyers about it, and despite me explaining clearly multiple times what my
concerns were (data collection, resale of personal info) and them having
multiple opportunities to simply say "we don't store your personal data beyond
X days and we won't sell it", they never gave any meaningful response to
either concern.

After that experience I have no choice but to assume the wording in the
privacy policy is deliberate and that they weren't operating in good faith
(from a privacy standpoint).

------
Chaebixi
If your device was built to need a "cloud," it's pretty safe to assume it will
be bricked long before you'd expect. Because who _doesn 't_ want to
continuously buy $150 smart devices.

The sad thing is the cloud is totally unnecessary for product function in 90%
of these cases. I had a Coin. I never put any actual credit cards on it
because I didn't trust a hardware startup to keep my financial info secure "in
the cloud." I only used it for magstripe loyalty and gift cards. Now I can't
even use it for that because the phone-app no longer works, because they
failed and they shut off their servers. The hardware still works perfectly,
though, it's just nearly useless.

------
kristiandupont
There's an unfortunate conflict of interest going on. IOT developers have a
strong incentive to create a "platform" that evolves around a database of
users and their data because if they don't have that, some copycat will appear
in no time and take their market. However, for the consumer this means that if
the company dies they effectively loose their device.

~~~
TeMPOraL
This is not "conflict of interest", this is their very business model. The
device is only a bait to take your data and/or sell you a service.

This business model is why I avoid IoT startups and actively discourage people
from buying their stuff. Until IoT becomes "Intranet of Things", most of those
devices are best considered as scams.

------
ARussell
This is unfortunate. I have their alarm and find it quite useful. It's nice
being woken up at a decent time in my sleep cycle rather than having to hit
the snooze button so often because I was woken from a deep sleep. Are there
any alternatives?

I'm probably hoping too much if I want them to give me a way to root my Sense
as well as an open source version of their server software I can run and point
my Sense to.

~~~
anc84
Why does this affect your device? Is it not calculating everything locally?

~~~
stunthamsterio
I don't believe so. Alarms etc are (I suspect) stored locally, but to enact a
change on the device I believe it has to send it upstream via the phone app
and the device then retrieves the changes.

So when the service is shut down my expectation is that I won't be able to
change any of my device settings. Not to mention that the room data and sleep
data will be unavailable.

~~~
anc84
Ah, in that case I feel no pity. Why would anyone buy a device like that is
beyond me.

~~~
lsaferite
This is the exact reason I don't really like cloud connected IoT devices. For
instance, while I'd love to have a Nest thermostat, I refuse to us it due to
requiring a connection to function fully. So I've opted instead for a 'dumb'
thermostat with WiFi and an open and well-documented local API. About the only
current exception to that in my house is my Amazon Echo, and that will be
replaced as soon as someone comes out with a viable local-only alternative.

~~~
yellow_postit
I don't mind cloud connected devices, what I stay away from are cloud-required
devices.

Open APIs and the option to run a private server are great, but the device
should retain some bit of functionality if there's no network.

~~~
lsaferite
Yeah, I agree. I will always give preference for devices that fully function
without internet access. For instance, the Venstar thermostat I use has a
cloud component where you can track stats and remote control the device if you
want, but it's 100% optional and the device loses no functionality, beyond the
on-device weather, when there is no internet access. The local APIs allow me
to easily integrate it with my HA controllers as well.

------
ghaff
So many things are being made today with WiFi connectivity and an app. So long
as the app is just an optional add-on feature you can use, I suppose it's
harmless enough. But so many devices don't build in setup etc. functions that
you can use in the absence of an app. How many smarthome/wearable devices
being made today does anyone think are going to be supported in 5-10 years,
assuming the companies are even still in business?

Open APIs etc. help to some degree, but realistically very few people have the
expertise or the inclination to setup a home server for some sensor.

~~~
TeMPOraL
IoT devices are one of those things that make me wish for governments to start
banning sales of particular product groups. Seriously - the moment I see
another IoT startup selling a cloud-connected device with propertiary protocol
and a shitty, bare-bones app, I know this will only turn into huge and
completely unnecessary waste of energy. Just thinking about all that plastic
and electronics being intentionally destined to a dumpster within two years
breaks my heart.

------
integricho
Too many useless startups are out there. I don't wonder at all why is this one
shutting down, but what I do wonder about is why people even get started on
such ideas.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Why consumers buy this stuff? I'd say hype & marketing. Why do people start
those startups in the first place? Because it's the current trendy way to make
money selling useless shit by turning what should be a product into a service.

------
peteretep
That's a shame. I have one. Its sleep insights are totally worthless, but the
alarm clock seems to work reasonably well, the device is attractive and the
alarm sounds are nice.

------
ja_k
Rebranding as "Goodbye"?

~~~
Danihan
The ultimate pivot..

------
fredkelly
Started to put together a rubygem to call their API - would be nice if they
could create something compatible: [https://github.com/fredkelly/sense-
client](https://github.com/fredkelly/sense-client)

~~~
OhSoHumble
Oh, that's kind of neat (I read the article that went along with the repo).
It's a pity that nothing was ever publically released.

------
VLM
How do devices like this, handle data analysis of two people in a bed?

The latest crop of devices have been single-person-only, for example Alexa, so
I assume it doesn't work at all for non-single people, but maybe there's some
interesting magic going on in there to support multiple people.

I wonder what this kind of hardware thinks of pets.

You get a married couple, a housecat or two, maybe a dog, the data stream must
be very interesting to filter.

~~~
ghaff
The sensors cover about a third of the bed so _theoretically_ you could start
it and use it in a way that mostly tracked individuals. In practice? I leave
that to your imagination and experience.

------
dbrgn
Would be interesting to try to reverse engineer the firmware. Maybe the
flashing pins are somehow exposed? The hardware/enclosure is pretty nice.

Edit: Someone has done a hardware teardown:
[http://lyndsaywilliams.blogspot.ch/2015/07/hello-sense-
sleep...](http://lyndsaywilliams.blogspot.ch/2015/07/hello-sense-sleep-
computer-under.html)

------
iM8t
What other devices would you suggest for someone looking to buy a sleep
tracker/smart alarm?

~~~
ghaff
I have a Beddit. As guptaneil wrote, they were recently bought by Apple.
Shortly before the acquisition, they brought out a new model. They dropped
support for the 1.0 version but did sen a free upgrade to everyone. I guess
they decided that was cheaper than supporting the 1.0 model in perpetuity for
some reason.

Mine was a review model. I found it was OK for what it was but I never really
did anything with the data. Oh, I went to bed too late last night? Well, I
kinda knew that.

