
Millennials Don't Care About Owning Cars, and Car Makers Can't Figure Out Why - amelius
https://www.fastcoexist.com/3027876/millennials-dont-care-about-owning-cars-and-car-makers-cant-figure-out-why
======
goodmachine
Pinch of salt required:

"Companies like our client ZipCar, for example".

Blink and you'll miss it: this article is not exactly flagged as sponsored
content. Author bio, tucked away off-page:

"Darren Ross is executive vice president of insights and solutions at college
marketing agency Fluent."

Insights and solutions, eh?

[https://www.fastcoexist.com/user/darren-
ross](https://www.fastcoexist.com/user/darren-ross)

~~~
icebraining
The funny thing is, if much fewer people are getting driver's licenses as the
article claims, then ZipCar is also screwed.

I'm an example of that; since I never planned to own a car, I never got a
license, and it's very hard to justify that time and expense when you can just
take an Uber for a couple of bucks more.

~~~
Tharkun
I don't drive and don't have a license, but Uber is banned in my neck of the
woods and taxis are ridiculously expensive. Driving would probably make my
life a lot easier.

~~~
t4nkd
As long as all you are concerned about is the difficulty of moving from one
point to another (presumably of a minimum distance) you are correct. You
probably are not accounting for the overhead of actually owning a properly
maintained and insured vehicle. The former has little cumulative effect on
your life, the latter is an really complicated situation fraught with personal
choices and teeming with people trying to take advantage of your naivety. Cars
are a huge responsibility, 100% luxury, and generally a burden, make no
mistake about it.

~~~
gaius
_100% luxury_

Actually, _not_ owning a car is a luxury. How do you get all the stuff you
need/want that you don't/can't fetch yourself from the source? You pay someone
else to drive it for you! Same with people who talk about Uber, like paying
for someone to drive you around isn't a luxury...

~~~
Certhas
It entirely depends where you live whether a car is a luxury or a necessity. I
grew up in a tiny village, where it was a necessity. now I live in a major
European city, and it would be a luxury item. Something that sometimes saves
me some time on the public transport, or the need to carry a few shopping bags
a couple of hundred meters. I have a car sharing account but can rarely
justify the cost of it when public transport is ubiquitous.

~~~
Corrado
I think that may be the difference. Public transportation in Europe is
generally much better than it is in the U.S. In most of America, you can sort
of get around using busses but for the most part, you have to have some sort
of personal transportation. And our bus system is not really designed/built
for normal people everyday travel.

------
time4tea
Is it because cars are expensive horrendous fossil fuel powered polluting
machines that are not compatible with city living? Is it because the insurance
industry, by its failure to deal with fraud, except by simply pricing it in,
had made insurance premiums unreasonably expensive? Is it because the streets
are clogged and travel times are huge? Is it because going by bike is just so
nice?

~~~
probably_wrong
I think I would add "Is it because they are money sinks, requiring substantial
regular payments for insurance, maintenance, fuel, and (in some cities)
parking spots?".

------
John23832
There are plenty of mililenials out there with cars, they just don t have NEW
ones.

But for the millenials out there with old cars, and for the ones without a car
at all. Nobody wants to buy a car because they're a huge financial
responsibility. Duh? Millenials, who are sattled with student loans or, even
worse (statistically), didn't go to school, don't want to attach themselves to
a huge payment every month. If they're in a city, owning a car probably comes
with huge parking fees as well.

~~~
icebraining
_There are plenty of mililenials out there with cars, they just don t have NEW
ones._

The article also points out that driving licenses have dropped significantly,
so it's not just a matter of buying cheaper cars.

~~~
brainfire
The article asserts this, but doesn't support it. It's got a statistic for the
current rate, but for the past it basically says "back in MY day we were
EXCITED to get our licenses."

~~~
pjc50
For the boomer generation cars were socialisation: how you got to see your
friends.

For the millenial generation that's smartphones.

~~~
unit91
Agreed. Another possible factor: 15 years ago, most states had full licenses
at 16 years old. Now, most states have restricted licenses, that "graduate"
into unrestricted licenses by 17 or 18 years old (21 in the case of Maine)
[1]. Even then, your unrestricted license can be delayed based on your driving
record. I'd guess that the wait and the additional red-tape makes driving in
general a less exciting proposition than it was "back in my day".

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver%27s_license_in_the_Unit...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver%27s_license_in_the_United_States)

------
venning
This should have a (2014) label. It's an old story and an old theory that was
always dubious and was quickly disproven.

A better, more recent story:
[https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-01-04/millennia...](https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-01-04/millennials-
are-buying-cars-after-all)

Edit: The earlier version of my comment was wrong.

------
unprepare
>But that’s not the "driving" factor, especially considering that owning a
smartphone or other mobile device, with its monthly fees of network access,
data plan, insurance, and app services, is almost comparable to the monthly
payments required when leasing a Honda Civic.

iphone 7 plus 128GB - 41.58$

Verizon 4GB data plan - 50$

insurance - 10$

app services? - 20$

Total - 121.58$

From Honda's website, they're advertising a civic lease for $179 a month.
that's with 2000$ due at signing. Oh wait! you'll also need mandatory driver's
insurance on that vehicle, that'll be at least another 50$ (im told, i live in
michigan which has the highest car insurance prices in the nation, my 2012
sonata costs 178 a month to insure, that's well above my monthly payment on
the car itself - i have never been in an accident and i have no tickets in the
last 5 years) anyways, so we are at least at $229 total with a 2000$ initial
down payment. That's quite considerably more expensive...

oh wait! theres also the various fees for getting a license, getting a license
plate, registering the vehicle with the state, and of course the mental cost
of maintaining the various paperwork.

Total - 229$ + 2500ish$

~~~
JangoSteve
Also, if we're including cost of a data plan for the phone, I think it's only
fair to include gas and maintenance in the cost of the car.

~~~
Piskvorrr
This. The TCO of a car is ginormous, even for all the comfort it provides.

~~~
t4nkd
For some reason people are caught up in sticker price value versus demand
value and try to play this cute game where a car is an investment, or better
yet, a tool to be leveraged.

Cars are a luxury that we afford and then make excuses as to why we are
justified in the expense. There are a few luxury car brands you could consider
"investable" because of your ability to re-lease and do week long or similarly
timeboxed rentals, but, even that is just an excuse that the people wealthy
enough to afford those types of cars make to explain their luxury expense.

~~~
noxToken
I'd be willing to argue that new cars are a luxury. A quick search[0] says
that only 26% live in an urban environment. The rest are suburban or rural.
The latter portion don't always have walkable areas.

I used to live a short 7 minute drive from my office. Mapping it says 15 via
bike and 1 hour via foot. It would have been nearly impossible to bike there,
because there are no bike lanes, areas with no sidewalk nor shoulder,
intersections that are awkward even for cars, high speed limits, etc. I mean,
you could get there, but it would be a very unenjoyable ride. Walking? That's
pretty much out of the question.

There's another option: public transportation. It is _very_ unreliable. The
map system is so convoluted that a group of cyclists are doing their best to
release a FOSS app to navigate the bus system.

Taxis and ride-share are almost non existent and very expensive. UberX is
roughly $22 round trip.

Not all American metro areas are made for walking/cycling. Once you hit our
downtown area, walking and cycling are pretty easy. Thus, I argue that cars
are not an inherent luxury in America.

[0]:[https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-suburban-are-big-
am...](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-suburban-are-big-american-
cities/)

~~~
antisthenes
In USA, living in an urban walkable area is just as much a luxury as owning a
car, if not more, thanks to some really poor infrastructure and urban planning
choices made mid 20 century.

In fact, the only city I would consider for car-free ownership would be NYC,
and you all know how expensive it is.

------
danpalmer
Learning to drive was expensive, so I didn't do it, then I graduated and moved
to a city (like many others my age) and didn't need a car because public
transport is ubiquitous and parking facilities aren't. Only anecdotal, but I
know a lot of people in my position.

~~~
creshal
Yep.

I grew up in the sticks, so of course I got a car the second I could to get
around.

Then I moved to an actual city (i.e., 250k population) and I spent more time
hunting for parking spots than actually driving, and when I moved to an even
bigger city, I left my car with my parents because I was fed up with how
_inconvenient_ cars were.

I don't see how car manufacturers are going to "fix" being worse than public
transit.

~~~
sitkack
They could fix it by burning down public transit,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy)

~~~
yummyfajitas
Austin is the modern version of that.

[http://www.vocativ.com/327333/a-world-without-uber-
dispatche...](http://www.vocativ.com/327333/a-world-without-uber-dispatches-
from-austin/)

[http://hotair.com/archives/2016/06/22/banning-uber-and-
lyft-...](http://hotair.com/archives/2016/06/22/banning-uber-and-lyft-in-
austin-has-led-to-an-explosion-of-black-market-ride-sharing/)

~~~
amyjess
That was because Uber and Lyft threw a tantrum about having to get proper
background checks for their drivers. They're not banned from the city; they
could come back at any time if they agree to use real background checks.

The SSN-based background checks Uber and Lyft use are way too easy to defraud
by using a fake SSN. Fingerprint background checks are much more secure. I
don't get the complaints: I had to get a fingerprint background check when I
legally changed my name two years ago. Big whoop. It cost me about $40 and a
few weeks of waiting (and I got the actual fingerprinting done at lunch, so I
didn't miss any work), and I don't care because it meant I could finally use
the name I go by on official stuff.

What Uber and Lyft did is straight out of the 19th-century robber baron
playbook: they responded to sensible regulation by boycotting the entire local
market. That's not how a good corporate citizen behaves; it's abusive and
monopolistic behavior.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_The SSN-based background checks Uber and Lyft use are way too easy to defraud
by using a fake SSN._

Do you have any evidence that criminal behavior is higher on Uber and Lift
than on yellow cabs?

In any case, the fingerprint requirement is not the only thing the law
requires. The law essentially required turning Uber into a yellow-cab like
service which would more or less make part time driving unecomonical:
[http://www.austintexas.gov/edims/document.cfm%3Fid=245769](http://www.austintexas.gov/edims/document.cfm%3Fid=245769)

It's factually wrong that they are a monopoly. Yellow cabs still exist, and
suck just as bad as they ever did. Assuming Uber and Lyft are as unsafe as
proponents of Proposition 1 claim, isn't it good that they are gone?

------
0xcde4c3db
Driving, I gather, used to carry connotations of fun, romance, freedom, and
prosperity. For me, today, it's more likely to evoke the opening scene of
Office Space. The experience sucks, it's expensive, and it feels more like an
obligation than an accomplishment. Taking the bus almost feels like a no-
brainer in the same way that I'm apparently expected to feel that owning a car
is a no-brainer.

------
gaius
It's part of something bigger, it's not just cars as status symbol in decline,
but cars as a lifestyle enabler.

I'm a diver, and to live the dive lifestyle, i.e. diving regularly at the
weekends not just a week a year on holiday, pretty much requires owning a car.
You can load it up the night before, set off at 0-dark-30 to make the tide,
use it as a base for the weekend, come back late and unload the next day, etc
etc. Do-able with a rental but a lot more hassle given the timings. Including
tanks and weights, the Mrs and I would probably take 150-200kg of gear for a
weekend trip.

Diving as a sport is in long-term decline since the 1990s, so are
mountaineering, basically all outdoor pursuits that require some logistics get
to remote places, and possibly even all outdoor activities. People these days
prefer to not go outside _at all_ if they can avoid it. This can't be good for
public health.

~~~
CalRobert
"People these days prefer to not go outside at all if they can avoid it. "

Counterpoint: I LOVE cycling. Do it all the time. I love riding anywhere I can
make it my main mode of transport.

When I lived in LA, this was rarely. I rode down Lincoln Blvd. several times
and still remember the sound of tires squealing from the pickup behind me. My
best guess is that the driver looked up from their phone and saw me with about
0 seconds to spare, given that they came to a stop about an inch from my rear
wheel.

I like cycling so much, in fact, that I moved to a European city where I can
cycle to work, to the shop, to my friends' places, every day. There were other
reasons too of course, but that was one of the biggest.

Living in a European city where things can be reached by cycle meant that
really, I don't even need a car, so I don't own one.

Anyway, there are outdoor activities that don't require a car.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
I'm in Norway. In the city I'm at, a car is definitely a luxury. We have a
used one that is only used to transport heavy goods (kitty litter) and go out
of town occasionally. I still walk to the grocery store and most places in
town or ride the bus.

However, we would go out of town before we had a car... because public
transportation is really a thing. City to city. Not all-inclusive, but enough
that one can travel to the outdoors so long as you are willing to walk or
cycle as well. It just takes slightly more planning is all.

I could have never had this sort of car-less freedom in the states. Living in
a larger city was probably one thing, but getting from city to city - or city
to the outdoors - was quite another entirely.

~~~
CalRobert
I remember visiting Seoul and being quite surprised that you can take the
Metro to the surrounding hillside. It's lovely.

Of course, I still use a car now and then. I'll rent one a few times a year
for a long weekend, and I use GoCar when I need to rent a van for whatever
reason.

I definitely don't want to own one though. It feels about as practical as
owning an airplane - another class of vehicle which is useful, but not
necessary to build your civilization around.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
I'd imagine your life would change very little if you bought something used -
that is what we did. Better than renting a few times, for us, anyway.

If I were living some other places, though, I'd have the same attitude as you.
Talked to a cab driver in Amsterdam once and found out there was something
like a 4-5 year wait on parking spaces. I was completely amazed - owning a car
is definitely not _that_ important to me.

~~~
CalRobert
"I'd imagine your life would change very little if you bought something used -
that is what we did. Better than renting a few times, for us, anyway."

The local garages charge at least €150 a month for parking. Auto insurance,
just for liability, is quite expensive as well. I'd have to pay tax and get an
NCT inspection every year too. Not to mention that I have spent too much of my
life crawling underneath crappy old cars ('88 Volvo 760, '86 Volvo 240, '90
Nissan Sentra) when I could have just rented something new and well-maintained
by someone who isn't me.

There are plenty of folks here who will say "but you're a HN reader! Clearly
several hundred euro a month should be a trifling expense!" but, well, it's
not. Also, the idea that everyone has a car is how employers in less
hospitable places (namely, the US) justify putting their offices a zillion
miles away from transit.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Yeah, see, that parking fee would be about enough for me to pass on the car.
Just because one is a HN reader doesn't mean they find that a trifling
expense. Luckily either that isn't as common in the city I'm in or we are
lucky enough to live in a small house turned apartments with parking right
outside.

I'm not entirely certain about insurance rates on that one - truth be told,
that is just something my spouse picks up and I never bothered to ask. I'm
still not actually legal to drive here yet. I missed the short deadline, now
get to take classes and re-learn. I think if we didn't have dreams of living
out in the countryside where transport is much more sparse, I'd not even
bother with the expense.

~~~
CalRobert
" we are lucky enough to live in a small house turned apartments with parking
right outside."

Not as relevant in an area where land is inexpensive, but in cities free
parking is usually a sign of terrible inefficiencies in land allocation. See
"The High Cost of Free Parking" by Donald Shoup.

------
mattlondon
For me car ownership as a millennial is about "working smarter" and saving
HUGE amounts of time and hassle.

I own two cars. They're not _essential_ (indeed one is a "fun car"...) - I
live in a city and use public transport to get to and from work and get most
of my groceries delivered so I could live without if I wanted, but why would I
want to make my life harder and more boring?!

The time-savings of car ownership alone are _through the roof_ , not to
mention the huge convenience factor. There are several trips I do often that
take under 5-10 minutes in a car, but take 30-40 on public transport/buses. I
can get to the shops and buy 10 bags of groceries and be back home again and
unpacked in 30 mins, but on a bus it would take 30 mins to even get there!
(and then I'd realistically only be able to carry say 4 bags home with me on
the bus and not have anything frozen). I estimate that car ownership saves me
45-60 minutes on this sort of trip that I do frequently - you cant put a price
on that sort of convenience & time-savings.

How much more code or other fun stuff could you do with an extra 3 or 4 hours
a week?

Of course there are instances where public transport is faster too (like
getting into Central London) so for me it works to have the best of both
worlds - use whichever makes sense. It does not need to be a polar decision.

Other millennials I work with or talk to often seem amazed that I have one let
alone two cars - I dont think they realise how cheap it is to own and run a
second-hand car. Get a 3 or 4 year old Honda or a Toyota that has been looked
after and you'll only need to insure it, service it and put petrol/diesel in
it. Up front cost will be £3-5K (and it will last many years and still be
worth something when you sell it), annual running costs about £500 - fuel
obviously varies, I probably spend about £300-400 a year on petrol.

So for me all in about £900 a year to run a car, or based on my average Uber
fare of about £13, about 1.3 Uber trips a week if you ignore initial upfront
cost.

------
gotofritz
It looks like people like to comment on the title without reading the article
- it says that young people are genuinely not interested, as demonstrated by
the fact fewer take a driving licence. They do have money, but they prefer
spending on IT gadgets rather than cars. The article may be wrong of course,
but it's not simply a matter of them being broke.

~~~
John23832
The idea that millenials are buying gadgets over cars is a pretty dumb one.
Those aren't in the same realm of financial responsibility.

People disagree with the article.

~~~
cheriot
How much of the money spent on cars is spent on transportation vs spent on
status? Money made from selling status has to compete with everything from
craft beer to the latest iPhone and holidays that can be bragged about on
social media.

~~~
VLM
Not to mention the status boost of being rich enough to not need to own a car.

Not owning a car in the current year is pretty much the "don't own a TV" of
the last couple decades. Everyone competes to status signal the hardest how
they support it, but when the rubber meets the road (ahem) its emperors new
clothes time and almost everyone does the opposite of the signalling.

Something often not discussed is the opportunity cost of not owning a car. Not
being able to have hobbies other than drinking at college bars, for example.
Not being able to leave the city, not being able to travel, or visit a real
park. Sorry can't take that job or promotion because I gotta live 5 minutes
walk from the leased apartment. Sorry can't go out on that date, can't you
just go with me to the college bar again? The cost of the parochial tunnel
vision of never meeting people outside walking distance.

~~~
cheriot
Your straw man requires someone not have a car and not have the money that one
saves from not having a car.

For the price of a car payment, I can commute on the DC metro and rent a car
for a weekend. For the price of car insurance, I can take Uber for quite a few
miles. For the money I made renting my parking space, I can rent a car for
another weekend and subscribe to Amazon Prime. With the money saved on gas,
car maintenance, and parking downtown, I can fly home to see family.

~~~
John23832
> Your straw man requires someone not have a car and not have the money that
> one saves from not having a car.

That's not the predicament that most people are in. Just because you don't
have a 30k car doesn't mean you have 30k in the bank to utilize. Hell, since
most people finance cars now a days, having a 30k car doesn't mean that you
had anywhere near 30k in the bank before buying. Whereas, if you buy that car,
whether or not you had something in the bank to cover it before buying, you
now are on the hook for maintenance, gas, insurance, etc. So no that's not
straw man at all.

> For the price of a car payment, I can commute on the DC metro and rent a car
> for a weekend.

I won't get started on this, as owning and utilizing a car in the DC/NoVa area
is a beast onto its own.

~~~
cheriot
What did I write that requires 30k in the bank? I'm specifically talking about
the same cash flows you mention.

The amount spent per month on car loan, insurance, gas, parking, amortized
maintenance, etc is now free to pay for other forms of transportation: car
rentals, uber, flights.

Someone with the monthly cash flow to _choose_ not to buy a car, that
complains they can't afford to go anywhere or do anything is very much a straw
man.

------
amelius
This is why I think the Apple Car is doomed. Apple makes products with a
luxury/status component, that people want to own. But if transportation
becomes a service rather than a physical product, the market for autonomous
vehicles will not be for end-consumers. Apple will need to seriously rethink
its strategy and perhaps reinvent itself.

I also think that once autonomous cars are ubiquitous, transportation will
become a service no matter how much big companies want to see it differently,
because autonomous vehicles as a service will make parking spots totally
unnecessary. Interesting times ahead for city planning.

~~~
grecy
I'm pretty sure everyone working on autonomous cars realizes there is no
future in personal ownership.

~~~
mmcconnell1618
I'm pretty sure you can argue for personal car ownership in a self-driving
world. Do you want to get into a shared vehicle right after the guy who puked
up his dinner? Have you ever been in a public restroom? Some people will not
want to use shared transportation. Other people may see ownership and
customization of a self-driving car as the ultimate status symbol. What's
better than Donald Trump's gold plated throne room pulling up to the curb?

~~~
icebraining
The puke will be detected by the electronic vision & nose, which will flag the
car for cleaning before the next trip.

~~~
gambiting
If rental or "share" cars are anything to go by, they will be lowest spec,
with maybe AC and electric windows if you are super lucky and someone wanted
to splurge on extra "luxury". Electronic detectors for puke? What universe
would that be in?

~~~
icebraining
In the universe where they are cost-saving devices, not luxuries.

In a self-driving taxi system, the company has three options: schedule a
cleaning after each trip (very expensive), have an auto-detection system or
deliver a dirty car to the customer to get sent back, which will be a waste of
time and gas, not to mention the bad customer experience.

Consider you can already get a portable e-nose (to detect spoiled meat, for
example) for $150 on retail, the cost is definitively worth it.

------
scott_s
It's also possible that cars have gotten better over time, and people are fine
driving old ones. I drive a 15-year-old car. Yeah, a new car would be _nice_ ,
but this one works just fine, and hasn't caused me any problems.

But when I think back to 2001, I don't think cars from 1986 would be the same
way.

This is not data, of course, as it's completely anecdotal. But based on my own
experience, I'd be curious if people really are holding onto cars longer, or
buying more used cars.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
As a kid in Iowa, all the cars were rusted out. Nobody bought a new one but
once or twice in their lives.

In college all the cars were new. Economy was up I guess, or cars were
relatively cheaper.

Well, today the cars are getting rustier again. Lots of junkers; more used car
lots than new; and even the new ones are econoboxes that won't last but a few
years anyway.

Probably a study in there somewhere - plot the rust coefficient against wages
or something.

~~~
jessaustin
Depending on when you went to college, the "Cash for Clunkers" scheme might
have been relevant?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Yeah, I'm way older than that.

------
lj3
Modern economy cars suck. They're less fuel efficient than they used to be,
they have less power, they're not as stable and they're in need of constant
repairs. They're also more expensive than they were 20 years ago. I could
forgive a lot about a 10 year old Toyota Corolla when it was only $700. I'm
not as forgiving now that a 10 year old Toyota Corolla is $5k.

If the cost wasn't enough, modern cars just aren't fun to drive. Compare the
Honda Civic to my father's generation's idea of an economy car: The Ford
Mustang. I'm told that car was a blast to drive and my father could afford one
as a high school student.

~~~
rwmj
Various sources in this article says you're wrong:
[http://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/diagnosing-
car-...](http://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/diagnosing-car-
problems/mechanical/cars-less-problematic.htm)

Plus also my anecdata. Cars were _horrendously_ unreliable back in the 1970s.
It's only because of selection bias that the few reliable cars survived while
all the recalled/broken down/junked cars from that era have gone.

~~~
lj3
I'm wrong about what, exactly? My argument about reliability was about a 1986
Toyota Corolla driven in 1996 vs a 1999 Toyota Corolla driven in 2009. My
argument about fun to drive was the Mustang, which came from my father. I
wasn't alive in the 70's, nor did I assert 70's cars were more reliable.

------
refurb
_From 2007 to 2011, the number of cars purchased by people aged 18 to 34, fell
almost 30%, and according to a study from the AAA Foundation for Traffic
Safety, only 44% of teens obtain a driver’s license within the first year of
becoming eligible and just half, 54% are licensed before turning 18._

It would have been nice to see more data. 2007 to 2011, car purchases among
that age group dropped 30%. What did other age groups look like? That was
right after the crash, so I suspect other stopped buying cars as well.

And what's with quoting how many teens get licenses? What did it look like 10
years ago? Was it the same?

------
rainsford
While the article says more technology in cars might entice millenial buyers,
I feel like tech in cars is actually a disincentive for anyone interested in
technology. With a few notable exceptions, most car tech seems like
embarrassing garbage that's hardly enticing when it's brand new, much less at
the end of a typical car's lifetime. Car development doesn't keep pace with
things like smartphones, people keep cars much longer, and automakers don't
seem inclined to offer much in the way of updates once they have your money.

------
quaffapint
Millennials seem to be happier moving into cities than us gen x'rs who fled
the cities. Around here in the rural/suburbs you couldn't survive (ie, get to
work, groceries) without a car.

I would love to have better public transportation so I didn't have the
payments, but I don't see that in my lifetime.

------
damaru
The whole car pride is a thing of the past. It used to define who you were and
prove your success. People are simply evolving and take the car for what it
is, it's simply transportation and you shouldn't make a big deal out of it,
nor you should go in massive debt for it. If the car industry wants to change,
making better quality, cheaper car, less polluting and smaller or more
intelligent, it might benefit them a lot.

------
TomMasz
As the article points out, a phone and data plan cost as much per month as a
car payment. Perhaps, just perhaps, millennials simply don't have enough money
to afford the equivalent of two car payments a month.

~~~
internaut
If we actually were living in prosperity these kinds of articles just would
not exist.

It is all rationalizing.

The fact is that young people are poor, and not just poor in the conventional
way people with less time on the planet less savings, but poor in the
historical sense of being less wealthy in real money than their parents when
they were the same age.

Somebody needs to explain to (most people outside places like Silicon Valley)
why in an age supposedly advantaged by the forces of technology and
globalization we are actually poorer.

We're not asking the right questions.

The government, the media and huge portions of the middle class are blithely
ignoring the territory in favour of the map.

This is not going to end well.

------
skizm
Yes, I don't own a car because I don't care... It has nothing to do with my
crippling student loan debt and my need to live within walking distance of
public transportation.

------
jimmytidey
Maybe it's too much to hope that people don't want cars because cars destroy
the urban environment, cause many fatal accidents and lead to global warming?

At least in Europe, I think cheap flights are another factor. The car used to
enable the fantasy that you could wake up in the morning and drive off in
search of adventure.

But any adventure within driving range looks increasingly passe in the era of
easy foreign travel.

~~~
Piskvorrr
Adventure within driving range also means "adventure within medium-distance
public transport, with no worries about designated drivers etc." That said, I
don't really see a decline in this lifestyle (even cheap flights are no match
to 4 people to a car, pricewise), so perhaps each of us is only looking at
their own precious _one_ data point?

------
cryoshon
Cars are too expensive for people without much money. Boom, question answered.

~~~
creshal
We're talking about the same millennials that have more than one laptop and
smart phone per capita, right?

~~~
cLeEOGPw
That's like saying that people must afford an iphone 7 if he owns a calculator
and an alarm clock. Laptops and smartphones are orders of magnitude cheaper.

~~~
creshal
Used cars are cheaper than high-end Macbooks.

~~~
imagist
You're comparing the very best laptops on the market to the worst plausible
used cars on the market without consideration for the cost of repairs that
you're going to make on a car with minimum 80K miles on it. You're also not
considering insurance, gas, etc.; the costs of running any car, even if you
somehow luck into a used car for the price of a high end Macbook that isn't a
lemon.

And for the record, I don't know any millennials buying the high-end Macbooks,
either. I've always bought the Air for myself, and even though my jobs
typically buy me a Macbook Pro, it's not the $5K ones with all the bells and
whistles, it's a $2000-ish one with a few minor upgrades from minimum.

------
chefkoch
Why don't they mention the that more and more people move to the cities?

The need for owning your own car iss very diefferent there from living in a
rural area.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_Sta...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_States#Historical_Statistics)

------
douche
If it was 1972, the cars on the market that were cheap and widely available
were models like the Mustang, GTO, Firebird, Challenger, Charger, Camaro,
Chevelle, Roadrunner, and on and on. They were beautiful, fast, and fun to
drive.

Am I excited to spend 20k+ on a cookie-cutter, egg-shaped sedan? No, I'm not
interested.

------
Hondor
A lot of comments about how expensive cars are. Do Americans really have to
borrow money to buy cars? Where I come from, the used car market is huge.
They're about the price of a laptop or a couple of smartphones. Even young
people can afford them.

~~~
imagist
I can't speak for most American millenials, but my options are:

1\. Buy a $5000 car up-front, which is an expensive up-front cost for me (and
more than most people my age have in savings). If I've been careful in
investigating the car, it will work _most_ of the time and _only_ cost me
$500/year in repairs.

2\. Buy a $20K car for $2000 up-front, taking on $18K on top of my student
loans, which, frankly, I"m just not going to do. I've been shit on by banks
enough for one lifetime.

3\. Keep my savings, use public transit, and have enough financial stability
that I could lose my job for a few months and not be homeless.

And for the record, I'm a software dev; I make almost twice as much salary as
most of my peers.

My Macbook Air cost me $1200. My $2000 Macbook Pro was paid for by my job.
Most of my peers buy <$1000 PCs. And laptops are cheaper to repair and don't
require gas, insurance, or a license.

~~~
nibnib
>1\. Buy a $5000 car up-front, which is an expensive up-front cost for me (and
more than most people my age have in savings). If I've been careful in
investigating the car, it will work most of the time and only cost me
$500/year in repairs.

Is this accurate for the US? I live in an expensive European country and a
used car around that price would cost next to nothing in annual repairs,
unless you really drove it a lot. Do you need to pay $5k up front? It's common
here to take loans for used cars.

~~~
throwaway729
_> Is this accurate for the US?_

I looked up my own stats on this for you. Note: I have a used car that cost me
around $8k.

I spend about $500/yr for maintenance.

I don't drive very often (I bike to work and walk for groceries/to bars -- the
car is left-over sunk cost from a previous life, and now only used for
inclement weather and weekend get-aways). So oil changes and tire rotations
are only a small fraction of that (maybe 100-200).

So _repairs_ probably cost around 300-400/yr for me. And that's only driving
very rarely.

It's worth noting that I'm probably upper tier on the used car repair
spectrum. I live in a _cold_ climate -- much harsher than everything in Europe
except the Nordic countries. I also live in a poor city that can't afford to
take care of its roads. This combo is pretty devastating from a
maintenance/repair perspective. E.g., I need good winter tires and they take a
true beating. Also, salt.

~~~
logfromblammo
The last car we bought was a used vehicle that cost about $8k a bit more than
a year ago. Since then, including repairs, we have probably spent about $700
on maintenance. But that also includes a new set of tires, which should last
longer than a year. That car is driven every weekday, with a minimum distance
of 20 miles.

The US ran an incentive program a while ago called _Cash for Clunkers_ that
basically took a lot of used car inventory permanently out of circulation, as
a political favor to the auto manufacturing industry. That drove the prices of
the surviving used cars way up. And since many of the destroyed cars were more
owner-serviceable than newer cars, that also increased the average cost of
maintenance.

The cheapest new car in the US market, the Nissan Versa, retails above $14k.
That's 27% of the median household income in the US. The average US household
spends $3k per year for vehicle purchases, $2400 for vehicle fuel and other
consumables, and up to $3k on insurance, maintenance, licensing, and other
transportation-related costs. That means that the overwhelming majority of the
US could not purchase a new car without a loan, even if they wanted to.

This is likely a good portion of the reason why younger folks don't own cars
at the same rate as older generations. Cars got more expensive, even as
education costs skyrocketed. When the economy says you can't have anything
nice without taking a big dose of debt with it, it is easier to say, "Okay,
well, F U then; I'll educate myself using the Internet, sleep in a cupboard
under the stairs, and skate to whatever work I can find that isn't already
done by robots."

------
mkj
In Australia in the past decade it's become harder to get a license. It was 25
hours of practice, now it's 100 or something. I reckon that could be one
reason.

Has that happened in other countries?

~~~
jessaustin
Not in USA. My understanding is that driving gets safer all the time, just
from vehicle safety improvements. What motivated Australia to impose this
burden on new drivers?

~~~
mkj
The population average age is increasing?

------
datavirtue
They do not have any money and are not turned on by debt and maintenance costs
of maintaining an automobile if they do not have to. I think the main driver
is a lack of money and viewing debt apart from the the car, which is an asset.
They are avoiding debt because they are cognizant of it whereas it was normal
to to use debt as a means to an end. When they start making serious money they
will come around.

------
mathattack
I'm with the Millenials. I hate owning a car, and didn't miss it when I lived
in the city. Now that I'm in suburbia, I only own one begrudgingly. It barely
makes sense economically versus Uber and renting, and then only because we
take weekend adventures. I also don't feel the need to own a horse. :-)

I look forward to price competition between fleets of driverless cars taking
away the need to own a car.

------
pjmlp
This is not only in US.

Here in Germany, thanks to the way city transports work, the majority of those
that live and work in the city get by public transports and bicycles, only
renting a car when going on vacations or for the weekend, for example.

Many of the young generations that buy cars, do so because they need to travel
between cities for work/study.

------
nkrisc
Personally ZipCar doesn't really solve anything. It's not necessarily owning a
car that I don't like, it's driving I don't like like. Traffic sucks, parking
sucks, other drivers suck.

I only drive because it's currently more convenient than not driving, and I
don't even drive for my commute to work.

------
datavirtue
They do not have any money and are not turned on by debt and maintenance costs
of maintaining an automobile if they do not have to. I think the main driver
is a lack of money and viewing debt apart from the the car, which is an asset.
They are avoiding debt because they are cognizant of it.

------
jostmey
The trend is exaggerated -- everyone needs transportation.

But I dislike the idea of owning a car because it requires so much work. I
want a trouble free that car that "just works". I don't want to check the tire
pressure, change the oil, wait in line for registration. Cars are a hassle.

~~~
gambiting
I'm the exact opposite - I love owning a car and doing all the maintenance.
I'll check the oil level and tyre pressures every few days. Every weekend I
spend 2-3 hours outside, cleaning the car, polishing it, then doing the rims,
and then vacuuming the inside and cleaning all windows. I just find it super
relaxing and very satisfying.

~~~
VLM
I'd agree with and extend your remark with car ownership is much like peasant
agricultural labor. If a judge and jury sentenced me to do it, or culture
forced me, or parents expected it of me, I'd be pretty annoyed, but of my own
free will this summer I grew many green pepper plants in my elaborate
container garden and find the labor involved very relaxing (and tasty!).

Elaborate economic arguments about how I should have spent those relaxing
labor hours contracting and then shopping for factory farmed green peppers are
going to fall on deaf ears.

------
amyjess
Two reasons, for me:

1) I don't trust myself to operate a machine that can kill other people.

2) I have better things to spend my money on. Why dump money into a car when I
can live by myself in a big house, eat out and/or have food delivered twice a
day every day, and fund several expensive hobbies?

------
optimuspaul
We're talking about the generation that never learned to really do anything
for themselves (gross generalization) and are currently expending all their
efforts to build services and apps that do everything that their parents did
for them. Would Uber or Magic have been so successful without this generation?
No (Yes), absolutely not (I'm sure it would have). This is the generation of
"Can't someone else do it?"

Seriously though, cars are expensive, traffic and parking is crazy in many
cities, infrastructure is falling apart, and the world is basically ending due
to climate change... so are we really surprised that the this generation
actually wants to a) be responsible and not contribute to this downward spiral
or b) wants to live life to it's fullest and not be tied down to things like
cars and houses. If car companies can't see that then they aren't asking them,
because that is what many would say.

~~~
Jtsummers
Magic preceded the Millennials. It definitely won the hearts and minds of the
Gen X gamer crowd first (the ones with the money to burn when the game first
came out in the early 90s).

Uber is, fundamentally, no different than taxi services _except_ that it
allows average people to become drivers (taxis are either particularly
exclusive requiring tests and certifications, or particularly bad like in most
non-metropolitan towns that have them). Really, the basic use-case of Uber is
what taxis _should_ have done in the first place. GPS tracking + smartphones,
they should've been connecting themselves to customers more intelligently.
They didn't, Uber came in and swept up their business. That was their own
fuck-up in many markets (in some markets the taxi services _did_ do better,
but not the majority, most still had traditional hailing or _phoning_ in a
taxi request).

~~~
graedus
> Magic preceded the Millennials.

I think optimuspaul is referring to Magic the startup. It's a virtual
assistant that you text to perform various tasks for you (shopping, booking
flights, etc).

~~~
Jtsummers
That makes more sense. I forgot about that. Does it still exist?

------
acveilleux
Heh, I'm 34 and I still don't have a drivers' license. I'm working on getting
one but only because I moved out to a semi-rural area to follow my partner's
faculty job.

------
mobiuscog
Not a millenial by any means.

I hardly ever use the car now, walk most of the time and prefer public
transport wherever possible.

Driving these days is a boring, stressful, tedious task that I only endure out
of necessity.

------
lawless123
As a "millenial" in Ireland the biggest reason was cost. Cars are expensive
insurance is expensive or very expensive if you're young and male.

------
Shorel
Endless traffic jams.

Fix that and we will buy cars again (nah, not really, not anymore).

May be self driving cars where we can enjoy time instead of merely suffering
it would be an option.

------
baybal2
I live in Moscow, the shortest eTaxi ride costs less than USD $2 - less than
what I paid for a bus ride while living in Vancouver

------
pmlnr
Uhm... because you just want to get from X to Z and you don't really care if
you're owning the method or not?

------
reacweb
Cars was the manner to show your wealth, now it is the iphone 7. People use to
be proud of their shinny car. Now, they compare cost of ownership.

BTW, I am proud of my Leaf. Maybe EV will mark a renewal for this market.

------
joe_momma
a lot of factors going on here...

1\. no jobs to pay for said car

2\. must pay for student loans instead

3\. cars are less reliable

4\. cars cost more today, and more to maintain

5\. gas prices increased but not wages

6\. insurance costs

~~~
acveilleux
7\. Millenials seem to flock to urban areas where cars are less required

~~~
ghaff
Which seems to be an overstated trend according to a number of fivethiryeight
pieces: [http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/think-millennials-
prefer-...](http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/think-millennials-prefer-the-
city-think-again/)

Other pieces I've read suggest the actual trend is more along the lines of
college-educated millenials are somewhat trending toward a handful of
particularly dense and favored urban neighborhoods in the US (SF,
Manhattan/Brooklyn, Boston/Cambridge, Austin). What broader urbanization
trends there are also include places like DFW, Phoenix, etc. that aren't
really walkable or have good public transit.

------
retox
Cars as a status symbol is very old hat.

------
JoeAltmaier
Electronic gadget addiction.

