
Juul Shipped At Least 1M Contaminated Pods, New Lawsuit Says - JumpCrisscross
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemlee/juul-lawsuit-contaminated-pods
======
skokage
>Breja alleges that on March 12, 2019, in an executive team meeting, he
learned that some batches of mint e-liquid had been found to be contaminated.
Approximately 250,000 mint refill kits, the equivalent of one million pods,
were manufactured with the contaminated e-liquid, shipped to retailers, and
sold to customers.

I really wish the article detailed what exactly the contaminant is, especially
considering the current hysteria over vaping.

>That same day, Breja “protested Juul’s refusal to issue a product recall for
the contaminated pods, or at a minimum issue a public health and safety notice
to consumers.” Then-chief finance officer Tim Danaher reportedly “questioned
his financial acumen,” since these suggestions would lead to billions of
dollars in lost sales and hurt Juul’s then-$38 billion valuation, according to
the lawsuit. Danaher, whose departure was announced by the company on Tuesday,
allegedly told Breja that he should remember his loyalty to Juul.

It's sad that there are so many people who would knowingly cause harm to
others, just all for the opportunity to make just a little bit more money.
They were already making money, and I'm pretty sure this debacle will cost
them far more money in the long run than just doing a voluntary recall and
coming clean. No better than the tobacco companies that came decades before.

~~~
gatherhunterer
> No better than the tobacco companies that came decades before.

I can’t believe people are this gullible. They _are_ the tobacco companies.
Juul is owned by Phillip Morris and all of that nicotine liquid comes from the
same tobacco.

~~~
crashbunny
Juul might be big tobacco, but Juul or any tobacco company didn't invent
vaping or make it popular. Juul jumped on after it was already popular and
allegedly marketed it to kids.

For a long-time big tobacco saw vaping as a threat to their business, they
worked and probably still work to have it banned.

~~~
gatherhunterer
> For a long-time big tobacco saw vaping as a threat to their business, they
> worked and probably still work to have it banned.

When you vape you are using tobacco. Selling vape liquid is selling tobacco.
It’s not competitive in any sense, it is a new brand for the same product. Why
are the addicts so unwilling to recognize that?

~~~
soylentcola
The "addicts" (as you call them) wanted a safer way to ingest the active
ingredient in tobacco. Nicotine on its own isn't much worse for your health
than caffeine, but having to inhale burning tobacco leaves to ingest it leads
to all sorts of health problems.

People figured out that you could heat up a solution of pure nicotine and
glycerins to create a mist that is easily absorbed when inhaled (but didn't
include the tars, carbon monoxide, or the host of other byproducts of
combustion that lead to respiratory and cardiovascular diseases).

Obviously it's not as ideal as breathing nothing but pure, Spaceballs-style
"Perri-air" but it's like telling someone not to bother with a massive harm
reduction because it doesn't eliminate 100% of potential health risks.

So while the nicotine is likely derived from tobacco (just because it's the
easiest source), using a nicotine mist inhaler is hardly the same as inhaling
the smoke of burning tobacco.

What started out mainly in the realm of tinkerers and curious people looking
for a better way to wean off nicotine or minimize the health risks of smoking
has been co-opted (at least as far as the mainstream discussion goes) by cig
companies and those who would seek to become their successors.

~~~
gatherhunterer
> "addicts" (as you call them)

That’s what they _are_. I smoked from age 18 to 27 and I was fully aware that
my physical and psychological reaction to withdrawal made me an addict.

The concept that vaping is safer is an assumption. Everyone assumed that
smoking had no health risks until people started to study the effects of
decades of use. The first vaporizers for nicotine arrived in 2006 so there is
no possible way to know the full long-term effects of vaping. Assuming that it
is safer is just as reasonable as assuming that it is less so.

> the nicotine is likely derived from tobacco

It absolutely is in 100% of vape liquids.

The delusion is palpable and the mental gymnastics that serve only the
addiction are disturbing. As Dostoevsky said, ”The man who lies to himself and
listens to his own lie comes to such a pass that he cannot distinguish the
truth within him, or around him...”

~~~
crashbunny
TD;DR vaping as a quit method shouldn't be banned. Non-smokers should be
discouraged from taking up both vaping and smoking.

It began as a safer alternative to smoking, which was an assumption. The
science isn't concrete but there is some evidence vaping is safer than
smoking. Note safer and not safe.

It's also easier to quit cigarettes by switching to vaping and then gradually
lowing the nicotine until you're vaping liquids with no nicotine. Then it's
just the habit you have to beat the addiction to and not the nicotine.

It is a little difficult to switch from smoking to vaping as cigarettes are
engineered to be as addictive as possible. There are more addictive chemicals
in cigarettes than just nicotine, and some added chemicals to make the
nicotine in cigarettes more addictive than plain old nicotine. Cigarettes are
engineered for an instant hit that fades quickly. The hit from vaping is slow
and steady. It takes time to adjust to vaping and there are cravings until you
do.

I think something has to be done about non-smokers taking up vaping without
stopping smokers from switching to vaping, I don't know what. There's an
argument the non-smokers who take up vaping would probably take up smoking if
vaping didn't exist.

------
zasz
Well as someone who goes through a pod every few days, I appreciate having at
least _some_ kind of heads up. The article's plenty useful to Juul smokers--
knowing that the mint flavor is the contaminated one means that I can switch
to a different flavor until more news comes out.

~~~
carlmr
> I can switch to a different flavor until more news comes out.

I can't even understand why you wouldn't abandon all Juul products at this
point.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
Maybe he is addicted to nicotine.

~~~
lightedman
There are plenty of other nicotine delivery systems besides JUUL.

~~~
ghostly_s
As I understand from the juulers I know, it gives you a fiendishly _special
kind of buzz_ , something to do with of the density of the hit and the
miniscule size that compels you to suck on it 24/7\. none of them are
interested in other brands' products.

~~~
aphextim
For some insight to this, if they are using the salt based nicotine, that
stuff is 25 mg or 50 mg, which is extremely concentrated vs "traditional"
pg/vg liquid which came about first.

The highest pg/vg liquid most people can tolerate is 18 mg. Typically if
someone is using a smoking device that has the large clouds, they are only
using 6 or 3 mg concentrate. The issue with high nicotine concentrate in the
pg/vg liquid is the taste is very bad with high mg of nicotine.

Now the tiny pods people smoke out of, do not have as large of clouds, however
with the new type of salt-based liquid, you can smoke 25-50 mg and still have
a pleasant taste to it.

This is why anyone smoking the salt based liquid seems to have these fiendish
kinds of buzz.

Me personally, I started 4 years ago on 18 mg, after one year went to 12 mg,
then 6 mg, now I'm on 3 mg. I plan on ripping the band-aid off soon and
quitting cold turkey now that I've weened myself down. I am waiting for this
upcoming holiday season to take a few days off, isolate myself from work and
be a crappy asshole to myself for a bit and then be free of this stupid habit
I picked up. (I used to smoke a pack a day or more starting when I was 18
before I transitioned to vaping)

Tl:Dr - Salt based liquids are like a shot of nicotine vs a beer when you
compare the concentration of the nicotine.

~~~
leshow
I quit vaping after 2 years and found the hardest part was the ritual aspect
of it, not so much the nicotine. I used to sit at my computer, code, and blow
big vape clouds into the air. It was extremely relaxing and took a bit of time
to get over it. I used 0 mg liquid for a while to help, but I would recommend
tossing out your vape & any oils you have when you feel you're ready. Having
them around is just a temptation.

~~~
aphextim
This is great advice and somewhat correlated with a shower thought I had the
other day when thinking about quitting for good.

2 weeks before I pull the trigger and throw everything into the garbage (that
is the plan because I agree the temptation would be probably too great), I
plan on trying to only vape outside like I would have to with normal
cigarettes. This is to detach my habits of also sitting at the computer desk
and taking vape hits whenever I want. This would force me to want it bad
enough to put on a jacket and physically go outside to smoke it.

Where I live we just got our first snow yesterday, so going outside is not
exactly pleasant, and I'm hoping that when I do pull the trigger and quit at
the end of the month it will easier if I've already weened myself off of
vaping at my desk or other areas inside of the house I've grown too
comfortable vaping in.

------
dpcan
All this attention.... and yet billions of cigarettes are smoked every day,
and one could say every single one of those cigarettes has been "contaminated"
for 50+ years.

Why are we not stopping cigarettes from being shipped around the U.S.
immediately under these exact same concerns?

~~~
screye
It is easy to ban vape pods, it is impossible to ban cigarettes.

The problem isn't the vice itself, it is the demand for the vice.

There isn't yet a huge vape smuggling industry anywhere. Also, if banning
vapes helps reduce the rate at which it is getting trendy among teenagers then
I fully support it.

For one, cigarettes are not considered cool anymore, and will meet their
inevitable death soon. Second, cigarettes can't be banned, because addicts
will be forced into smuggling or moving to harder stuff. Third, Cigarettes
have a ready smuggling industry that will take over, the second they are
banned.

The analogy would be like leaving a bad marriage. It is a lot easier to
divorce someone who will amiably accept than an extremely abusive partner
where dissent puts your health at risk. Cigarettes are the abusive partner.

Banning cigarettes would be prohibition all over again. The vape ban has not
been as bad of a disaster yet, so I can see why the govt. would want to
continue with it.

~~~
EpicEng
>Also, if banning vapes helps reduce the rate at which it is getting trendy
among teenagers then I fully support it.

Yes, because prohibitions have always worked out marvelously, the list of bad
things kids get into is small, and won't someone please think of the
children?!

If you're all for banning dangerous things that adults enjoy which we also
prohibit children from doing, you're list is going to grow quite long.

~~~
screye
Yeah, that was a big "IF". But, we will see. If it fails, reverse the ban...I
guess.

In many countries cigarette companies are not allowed to advertise as trendy
or cool. Their packages are forced to contain photos of people affected by
lung cancer and big signs saying the same. It really does help make smoking
appear uncool.

Juul and vaping companies have gone around unchecked in this regard. Even if
the ban is reserved I would be a huge supporter of such adversarial marketing
restrictions.

> and won't someone please think of the children

Adults have way better impulse control. Thinking about the children is a
legitimate concern, when talking about things with massive doses of nicotine.

> list is going to grow quite long.

If the world worked the way I wanted and laws had 100% efficacy, alcohol would
be banned too. But, alas it is so deeply ingrained into our collective social
psyche that it is going nowhere.

Apart from alcohol and pot, what adult thing can't minors enjoy ? That's the
list.

~~~
EpicEng
>Yeah, that was a big "IF". But, we will see. If it fails, reverse the ban...I
guess.

And in the meantime, how many adults have you harmed by taking away an
effective smoking cessation device in some naive attempt to protect children
from a threat that you can't even quantify?

Treat them like cigarette companies when it comes to advertising, I'm all for
that, but don't take away flavors or ban them outright out of fear.

>when talking about things with massive doses of nicotine

No one is dying from nicotine.

>f the world worked the way I wanted and laws had 100% efficacy, alcohol would
be banned too. But, alas it is so deeply ingrained into our collective social
psyche that it is going nowhere.

Jesus.

------
reimertz
If money is you main motivation for doing what you do, you’re way more likely
ending up making these kind of bad decisions.

Money and greed goes hand in hand and it deludes your moral compass.

If you instead are driven by true happiness which can come in many forms such
as doing good, impacting people in a positive way or just improving the world
in general, money becomes less important.

I do understand this way of thinking is a luxury and I myself had been in
situations where I just needed money to buy food, but the people sitting in
these positions, making these decisions usually have no issue with money, they
just want more.

------
yannis7
I've been a social smoker for ~15 years; I attempted Juul-ing about a month
ago -- had to stop it as I was immediately (from the 1st puff) feeling unwell,
super dizzy and occasionally with a massive headache. Even if this is not
linked to any "contamination" of the pods, the amount of nicotine the put in
those things is just insane. Didn't even bother giving the vaper to somebody
else, I just threw it away

~~~
excalibur
Yes, the amount of nicotine in Juul pods is absurdly high, and has little
variability. Somehow they became the market leader, and a lot of people assume
their products to be representative of the industry as a whole. They aren't.

If you want something harmful to ban, why don't you start with products with a
nicotine level above 24 mg/ml. Better yet, why don't you REQUIRE them to be
made available in a variety of lower nicotine concentrations, including
nicotine-free. Giving the user control over the nicotine content is the
primary value of vaping for smoking cessation. There is a legitimate public
health interest in requiring products to be useful for this purpose.

------
JohnJamesRambo
Siddharth Breja if you are reading this, I want to say thank you for standing
up for what is right. I know it wasn't easy.

------
cwkoss
Yikes, has anyone reported what the contaminant was?

~~~
alexhaber
I think it is related to this article from August

[https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2019/04/e-cigarettes-may-be-
conta...](https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2019/04/e-cigarettes-may-be-contaminated-
with-microbial-toxins-study-finds/)

~~~
zuzun
They said they didn't test "pod devices".

------
crashbunny
I also heard, and I'm not aware of any proof, so this unsubstantiated. As well
as the black market THC pods causing lung damage, there were black market Juul
pods causing lung damage. The story was empty Juul pods were being snuck out
of the factory and filled, packaged and sold to distributors, who then sold it
to retailers for the same price as official Juul pods. It sounds a little
suspect to me like maybe the rumour was started by Juul itself.

------
mattigames
Not like shipped cigarettes that come full of completely non-contaminated
nicotine... this society is just a big f* joke.

------
jesseryoung
FYI they've updated the article with this statement:

 _This story has been updated to include a response from Juul, a link to the
lawsuit itself, and a clarification that the lawsuit did not specify which
contaminant was allegedly in the pods._

------
ljw1001
The sad thing is that this is only an issue now, when the product is
unexpectedly killing people in the short term. It's clear that killing people
in the long term is part of their business model.

For example:

They created flavors clearly designed for non-smokers

They took major investment funds from big tobacco

The had to be forced to restrict certain marketing policies even though it was
clear that vaping had become epidemic in high schools.

They pursue the same kinds of hyper aggressive promotion overseas the
cigarette companies do, continuing with practices that are now prevented in
the US

They happily ignore the evidence that many people in this new generation of
addicts switch in-part or in-whole to cigarettes.

------
mlang23
Am I the only one who thought about eXistenZ while reading this headline?

~~~
fastball
I haven't thought about eXistenZ in at least a decade.

~~~
mlang23
Contaminated (game)pods. That was about 70% of the story.

------
madprops
What is contaminated? Could be some no-big-deal impurity.

------
_bxg1
Lately I wonder if America's businesses have always been this corrupt and I
just wasn't old enough to be tuned-in to it, or whether the current levels are
a more recent phenomenon. Between Juul, WeWork, Boeing, PG&E, Equifax, the
Sacklers. It's just mindblowing how rotten everything is. It's amazing society
continues to function at all.

------
arminiusreturns
Fact is most DA's hate pursuing white collar crime because the workload for
the cases is much higher than jailing evil poor people.

------
rocky1138
This is a really interesting story, but let's wait to see what the result of
the suit is.

------
TurkishPoptart
Tim Heidecker already LARP'd as Tim Danaher....2 years ago![0]

[0]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YWJcqISKJQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YWJcqISKJQ)

------
arzt
Contaminated with what?

------
KiDD
I quit using Juul because the Mint pods gave me a headache and it was around
the same time they claim they were contaminated..... Where's the class action?

------
autoexec
> It's sad that there are so many people who would knowingly cause harm to
> others, just all for the opportunity to make just a little bit more money.

People like Tim Danaher should be behind bars. It's amazing to me that you can
kill, injure, or put at risk hundreds of thousands of lives in the name of
profit, but so long as you do it while working for a large enough business you
get to continue to live in the luxury those profits afford you no matter how
much innocent blood you spilled to gain them. I don't know exactly when we
decided that serial killers in suits are perfectly acceptable to us, but even
the companies themselves who allow this sort thing to happen are rarely
punished enough to offset the gains they made exploiting their customers.

I _expect_ there to be people in this world who will do anything to satisfy
their greed, I just don't understand why we continue to let it happen again
and again in industry after industry without holding anyone meaningfully
accountable for their part in it.

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
> People like Tim Danaher should be behind bars.

Assuming the allegations are substantial and true, Danaher should be very
grateful that he's protected by the law. I can't imagine the urge for
vengeance that would be felt by a parent of someone who died from this.

~~~
corndoge
FTA: "A nationwide lung injury outbreak, now standing at 1,604 cases and 34
deaths, is being investigated by public health agencies, which have primarily
linked the illnesses to vaping black-market THC."

The CDC findings were that black market THC pods are causing the deaths. It
seems most of the current moral outrage and reactionary, emergency regulations
on (nicotine) vaping have been because people have not been doing their
research at all.

~~~
chipgap98
The Daily (the Times podcast) did an episode[1] this week on vaping and the
death discussed in that story does not sound like it was related to black
market THC. The majority of cases do seem to be THC related, but I don't think
its clear yet that they all are.

[1]: [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/28/podcasts/the-
daily/vaping...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/28/podcasts/the-daily/vaping-
dangers.html)

------
DoctorNick
Remember that lawsuits like these tend to exaggerate salacious details in
hopes of attracting press attention, and forcing a quick settlement.

------
ppeetteerr
I paused vaping my Juul just long enough to read that it was primarily
affecting Mint flavored cartridges. Back to vaping.

------
lesservehicle
Whoops. Time to find my fix some other way.

~~~
tremon
Try going for a walk.

------
mullingitover
Zero explanation of what the actual contaminant was.

This is a garbage clickbait article and Buzzfeed should be ashamed.

~~~
undefined3840
Why is this clickbait? The story is not what the contaminant was but that a
senior executive at the company was alarmed enough with whatever defect there
was to raise the issue, fully aware that recalling the product would have huge
financial implications given his role in the finance org. That is newsworthy
despite not yet knowing what the issue is yet.

~~~
stickfigure
The Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect comes up so many times on HN that I'm surprised
you don't already know the answer. Third-hand stories about what some
executive said, from a news source famous for aggressive editorializing for
clicks?

I have no bone in this fight, but I wouldn't get my blood pressure up over a
story like this.

~~~
kevingadd
It's an article about allegations from a court filing, not a story based on
something overheard in a diner. What exactly is editorialized about the
article? It basically just summarizes the details of the case. They even
reached out to the parties for comment so they could offer their side of the
story.

~~~
none_to_remain
Just because something is an allegation in a court filing doesn't mean much.
The first time Trump tried his entry ban, I saw a court filing. It alleged
that the state of Washington had defrauded the filer of, if I remember
correctly, about $70 billion and the court should immediately dismiss the
Washington v. Trump to focus on this more important matter.

------
mailslot
STOP nominating narcissistic sociopaths to paths of power. Yeah??? Real easy.

~~~
sschueller
But Elon is going to save the world. /s

~~~
Cthulhu_
I haven't actually seen / heard many people claim that to be honest. HN at
least can be quite cynical. Yeah they'll admit that Teslas and what SpaceX is
doing is pretty cool, but at the same time they'll voice concerns about
battery recycling, pollution caused by launches, and the threat of locking
humanity out of space because of tens of thousands of micro sattelites
starting a cascading destruction and debris shield aroudn the world.

