

Surface Dogged by Low Sales, High Returns - supersiteforwin
http://winsupersite.com/mobile-devices/isuppli-surface-dogged-low-sales-high-returns

======
blhack
We demo'd a surface at work, and these were my takeaways:

1) The UI is _incredibly_ confusing. It, again, feels like it's just a windows
machine with some goofy /thing/ bolted to the top of it. It reminds me of
windows media center.

2) At least the one we got was really heavy. Heavier than a macbook air, which
is a "real" computer.

3) We all-too-frequently seemed to get dumped back into a standard windows
desktop with a startbutton and everything...which would be great, if it
functioned that way. All I wanted to do was create a PPTP connection on the
thing, but absolutely couldn't figure out how to make that happen.

\--

I am fairly far from an apple fan, but the reason that the iPad has been so
successful is that apple designed it from the beginning to be a new device
with new UI paradigms.

Android did the same.

Microsoft, at least from the experience I got with surface, absolutely did
not, which is sad, because they're easily poised to be able to dominate
tablets.

The "holy shit" dream scenario that I have, and I think it's shared by a lot
of tablet users, is a tablet as a detachable auxiliary monitor that I can dock
applications into.

If I drag, for example, a browser window over to my surface monitor, that
surface monitor should be able to get picked up and go with me, and then I
should be able to dock that back into my desktop and go back to working there.

~~~
WrkInProgress
A couple of notes to your points ...

2.) There are two Surface models, one is the Surface RT (which this article is
talking about) and the other is the yet to be released Surface Pro.

The Surface RT is slightly heaving than the latest generate iPad.

The Surface Pro is supposed to be 2 lbs., which is lighter than the smallest
Macbook Air and with the exception of form factor, it is every bit a real
computer as is the Macbook Air.

3.) There is no start button in Windows 8 or Windows RT, so I don't know what
device you were demo'ing.

~~~
yajoe
I appreciate your reasoned post about the Surface:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5146663> A couple clarifications to
highlight how the jury is still out on this device and its long-term impact on
the market.

 _> 2.) The Surface RT is slightly heaving than the latest generate iPad...
The Surface Pro is supposed to be 2 lbs.,_

I had the Surface RT (with touch keyboard) in one hand and my MacBook Air in
the other hand. The MacBook Air felt lighter. I did the same thing with a
Surface Pro I wasn't supposed to see on a different occasion; the MacBook Air
still felt lighter. It could be the Surface Pro I saw was a hardware
prototype.

Weight doesn't seem like the Surface's major advantage.

 _> 3) There is no start button in Windows 8 or Windows RT_

You're right that there isn't a start menu in desktop mode (unless someone
installs the popular apps that put it back). However, there is a hardware
start button on the surface RT I saw... and I did hit it quite often when
holding it in landscape. Somehow my hand just wanted to hold the device in the
middle from below (perhaps because it's easier to balance? Torsion is heavy?)
and got tired much quicker when holding on one side.

~~~
lotso
The weight of the Surface RT and Surface are lighter than the Macbook Air 11
inch by .88 pounds and .38 pounds respectively. The Surface was engineered to
equally distribute the weight so that it even feels lighter than it actually
is.

~~~
cma
How heavy is the pro keyboard attachment? More than .38 lbs?

~~~
dangrossman
About that. A Surface Pro with the Type Cover should be both thinner and
lighter than the smallest MacBook Air. Exactly how many hundredths of a pound
lighter isn't yet known since no review units were sent out and the Surface
Pro website says "under 2 pounds" for the device.

------
WrkInProgress
I have a Surface RT. It was a gift. I also have an iPad, that I paid for. I
use both quite often.

Is it a good device ? Yes, I think so. Would I recommend the current Surface
RT ? No, not yet anyway.

Here are my key issues:

a.) The app store has to get better. I know it has a full featured browser
(spare the IE jokes), so there isn't a need for as many apps as a traditional
tablet, but I still think the RT's usage is set up for touch as often as
possible and using IE10 in desktop mode just don't cut it for touch usage.

b.)It can stand to be a bit cheaper (at least bundle in the keyboard for
$50.00)

c.) MS needs to get their act together because the built in apps are very bare
bones and in fact are at times worse than the apps they replaced (i.e. Xbox
Music vs Zune)

d.)in terms of hardware, the only real issues I have would be the screen
(quality is great, but I think the next iteration should bump up the
resolution); and the cameras which are god awful.

All in all, despite the criticism, I like the direction Microsoft has taken
with Windows 8 and the Surface line. In typical Microsoft fashion, it would
have helped if the different divisions had got their act together, so they
could have released a more refined, coherent product.

It always baffles me when I see incredulous posts on Hacker News that can't
seem to grasp the benefits of a device like the Surface RT or the Pro. I think
devices similar to the Surface Pro are the future of mass computing.

~~~
meaty
How do you find office on RT? It's unusable for me. Too slow.

Fortunately it's not my machine :)

~~~
pcj
Have you already installed the Office RTM update? It's a bit better after the
update.

~~~
zmmmmm
That update is particularly hard to find - you have to dig several windows
deep into the control panel in desktop mode ... it's one of those inexplicable
things that just dumbfounds me - they leave a pre-release version of Office on
the tablets and then almost guarantee nobody will install the proper version
by making the update UI impossible to find.

~~~
therobot24
seriously? you can just type windows update (search will open for you) then
select it to install - i don't know how it's too complicated. Especially since
most people use windows already.

~~~
zmmmmm
No, typing Windows Update gets you to the updates for the tablet, which do not
include Office. To update Office you go through the control panel see -

[http://winsupersite.com/article/windows8/microsoft-
surface-u...](http://winsupersite.com/article/windows8/microsoft-surface-
upgrade-final-office-2013-rt-144650)

Perhaps it has changed, but this is how it was 3 weeks ago when I updated the
tablet I had.

~~~
meaty
This is what I experienced as well.

I've updated it now - it's still a dog, even compared to my 5 year old
ThinkPad...

------
Yhippa
I have a Surface RT. Unfortunately I couldn't return it because it was outside
the return window and Microsoft's return policy was rather unforgiving. Too
late now.

I actually like the thing.

Pros: \- The Type Cover is awesome. It's not bad typing on it and the keys are
spaced enough where you don't feel cramped. The track pad works well with this
too. \- There are enough built in apps to get stuff done that most people need
to do (calendar, email, document creation, and web browsing). \- Hardware wise
it is heavy but solidly built. It really looks nice and the kickstand isn't as
bad as I thought it would be.

Cons: \- Someone mentioned that the aspect ratio of the screen makes it
difficult to read documents sometimes. \- Windows 8 has a steep learning
curve. You won't be able to pick it up and immediately be productive with it
like you would an iPad. However once you get used to the gestures you will be
comfortable on any Windows 8 device. \- For some reason (and this was true
with my Windows Phone 7 HTC Arrive) apps take a long time to download data
from the internet. You'll frequently be waiting on an app to connect to the
internet to use things like the People Hub to see status updates. \- Apps.
This is a big one. There are few big name apps on there. Was hoping for
Spotify, Facebook, and Twitter individual apps. \- The name. They dropped the
ball on a simple product naming strategy.

------
aaronbrethorst
I've seen a handful of Surfaces around town, but I live in Seattle and every
Microsoft employee got one for free.

It's a nice device in theory: the build quality is significantly higher than
your average PC, but the lack of apps is, I think, a killer. Almost _no one_
understands the difference between Windows and Windows RT, nor understands
that this means you won't be able to run Steam, PrintShop Pro, that crappy VB6
app that IT built when Clinton was President, or any other app that's run on
Windows for the past 20+ years.

Plus, the other thing that boggles my mind is that it is _not_ a laptop. You
literally cannot use it on your lap with either of the keyboard covers. It is
either an overly long tablet, or a desktop machine.

edit: I'm impressed therobot24 can get their Surface to balance properly on
their legs. I tried this out and couldn't make it happen in a way that I
thought would be safe. Maybe I underestimated the strength of the magnets
between the keyboard and device.

~~~
therobot24
I disagree with the 2nd part - I use the surface on my lap all the time -
rather 90% of my usage is in bed or on the couch/recliner, each time with the
kickstand out and using the type keyboard. I don't see why it didn't work for
you, the only problem I can even think of is that sometimes i'm laying down
and because i'm looking under my glasses I have trouble reading the screen.

~~~
rayiner
Do you sit with your legs together so you can support the device with two
points of contact, or do you manage to balance the whole thing on one thigh?
The problem with the kickstand/keyboard setup is that the keyboard isn't
rigidly attached to the screen. You can use force on the palm rests of a
laptop to support it in a wide variety of positions that seems really awkward
with the Surface.

~~~
therobot24
legs together, or it's on my chest while i'm lying down.

i kind of like that it isn't rigidly attached because my blanket or legs for
that matter aren't exactly an even surface and instead of the device losing
balance the keyboard leans a bit left or right.

~~~
rayiner
Whenever I use my laptop not on a desk, I balance it on one knee (I don't like
sitting with my legs pressed together), which seems hard to do with the
Surface. I also balance it on a couch armrest or a pillow in bed. The rigid
base let's me use my hands on the keyboard to steady the device even when it's
balancing with only one point of contact at the bottom.

------
jpeg_hero
I returned the Surface I bought. I hardly ever return things.

I thought the screen too tall when web surfing in portrait mode. And I had an
overall "meh" feel towards the hardware that I knew would have me leaving it
in the drawer, collecting dust.

\--

Sent from my iPad

~~~
jmduke
Genuine question:

Did you get the iPad before or after the Surface?

For the life of me I can't understand why someone would want both products.
(And, between the two of them, I'd personally choose the iPad.)

~~~
roc
> _"For the life of me I can't understand why someone would want both
> products"_

You've never met a gadget-hound?

~~~
jmduke
I'm not saying those people don't exist -- I just don't know why they do. :)

~~~
pohl
I'm not in that demographic, but it's easy for me to imagine a techie who just
likes to be the person in the room who has an informed opinion when the
subject of available tablets comes up. For devices that have decent return
policies or retain their resale value, there's minimal risk other than one's
time investment.

------
ChuckMcM
Its hard to push the envelope. I'm impressed that Microsoft didn't push out a
'me too' product, I wasn't impressed with their ability to 'step outside their
comfort zone.'

That said, the amount of experimentation that is going on these days reminds
me of the early personal computer days and I find that a lot of fun. Its too
bad Microsoft didn't hit one out of the park[1] but they've got room to
continue.

[1] Baseball metaphor for scoring a home run, also reading the Palm story and
how they went from 'juggernaut' to 'irrelevant' in 36 months was pretty
sobering.

------
untog
I was working out what tablet to get- the Surface was up there, but in the end
I went with an Asus Transformer tablet. It has it's own infuriating features
(incredibly slow IO performance, for one) but I do feel like Android will be a
full OS before Windows 8 is a mobile one.

------
ladzoppelin
The Pro version is what I think a lot of people are waiting for. The app
market is still to small for the locked down arm version to be useful.
Obviously the market is getting better but it still has a long way to go.

~~~
nextparadigms
I don't think the $900 tablet that makes you pay for 64 GB of storage, but
only allows you to use 23 GB is really what people are waiting for.

~~~
rednukleus
So put a 64gb SD card in there for 50 bucks. It's not an Apple product.

~~~
cremnob
With the keyboard the Surface Pro is already more expensive than the cheapest
Macbook Air.

~~~
rednukleus
And they both have their strengths and weaknesses. What's your point? Or is
this just blind hatred for a device that hasn't even launched yet?

~~~
rayiner
Is it really hard to believe that rational people can see the Surface Pro as a
severely compromised device just based on the specifications? Surface Pro
enthusiasts are psyched about the Ivy Bridge CPU and real Windows 8, while
detractors are skeptical about the severe compromises in the design: 33%
heavier than an iPad with half the battery life and a small screen and
pathetic keyboard/trackpad story relative to a real ultrabook.

The enthusiasts could be right, it could end up being a "no compromises" hit
of a device. But my money is with the detractors. I think it makes too many
compromises relative to a real tablet and a real ultrabook to be a successful
device that convinces people to consolidate both.

~~~
rednukleus
A lot of people wrote off the iPad, and thrn 7" tablets based purely on
specifications, and look how they turned out.

There is an awful lot of negativity around the Surface Pro from some people,
and its pretty obvious a lot of it is purely because its a Microsoft product.
I think we should at least wait until the damn thing has launched before we we
come to any conclusions about it.

~~~
rayiner
> A lot of people wrote off the iPad

There was a lot of negativity about the iPad, and people were wrong. It turned
out that multi-touch was a total game changer for the tablet form factor, and
people didn't see it coming.

> There is an awful lot of negativity around the Surface Pro from some people,
> and its pretty obvious a lot of it is purely because its a Microsoft
> product.

I don't think it's "obvious" at all. Microsoft is launching a 2 pound tablet
with 4-5 hour battery life at a $900 price point. You don't have to dislike
Microsoft to think that the "but you can run Visual Studio on it!" angle is
just going to go over peoples' heads and the market will pass on the device.

Especially considering the lack of "game changer" as existed in the iPad. Is
the weight reduction from 3-3.5 pounds as with the previous Windows tablets to
2 pounds (at the cost of battery life and a real keyboard) going to be that
game changer? I think you have to really be rooting for MS to think that is
the case.

~~~
rednukleus
If you don't think full Windows 8 with full Office on a tablet in that form
factor isn't a potential game changer for enterprise, you're insane.

> There was a lot of negativity about the iPad, but people were wrong.

Exactly. So just like with the iPad, don't you think we should wait until
people actually use this potentially game changing device to find out if it is
a flop or a game changer?

The reason why I say its obvious that many people are dismissing this device
because its from Microsoft is that I've seen a lot of comments that say "Its
Microsoft, and Microdoft always [insert sterotype here]". Im not saying
everyone is doing that, but there's certainly a big element of it.

~~~
rayiner
> If you don't think full Windows 8 with full Office on a tablet in that form
> factor isn't a potential game changer for enterprise, you're insane.

I think full Office in a tablet form factor is potentially a game changer, but
that's exactly what Surface RT offers and look how well it's selling.

I don't think full Windows in a tablet form factor is otherwise attractive.
Aside from a small niche of people, nobody wants to run non-touch optimized
legacy Windows apps on a 10" screen. Microsoft has been peddling the
stylus/tablet shtick for almost a decade now and it just hasn't been taking
off. It's not something people want.

Microsoft made a huge mistake by releasing two different versions of Surface.
They should have put all their eggs in the "Office on a tablet" basket, and
released Surface RT with a high-res screen and Clovertrail processor at the
$500-$600 price point, with a perfect, fully touch-optimized copy of Office
ready to go. By sandbagging Surface RT they released on product without
features people want (high-res screen, fast performance), and one product with
features nobody wants (aside from a few nerds who think they're going to run
CAD apps, nobody needs Ivy Bridge on a tablet).

------
n3rdy
Perhaps they shipped them with only 23 gigs of free space knowing they would
be returned long before anyone could use up that space.

------
wozname
I will not be getting a surface. I took a borrowed one home to show my wife,
she hated it. She wanted the interface switched around since she's left
handed, charms on the left and swipe right for more pages, I couldn't figure
out how to do it, but I didn't look that hard.

I'm also forbidden from installing Windows 8 on her laptop and the games
machine.

Personally I don't like how I need to be connected to the cloud all the time
to do anything.

------
trotsky
How many MS products sell well in their first edition? Besides Kinect? I
remember when Honeycomb was first out and all anyone could talk about was
channel stuffing and how there wasn't a tablet market, there was an iPad
market. A bit lower on that sites newsfeed is a note that the iPad dropped
below 50% in the quarter they launched two new tablets.

~~~
revscat
> How many MS products sell well in their first edition?

Not very many MS products sell well regardless of version number. Outside of
Office and Windows MS struggles, and the only consumer success they have had
has been with the XBox. Their other initiatives -- Zune, Windows Phone, Kin,
etc. -- have all struggled despite sustained efforts from Redmond.

Microsoft has entered a field that already has established players -- Apple
and Samsung -- who are on the 3rd+ generation of their devices, and who have
greatly refined them over time. Microsoft has put out a device that is first-
gen. This is woefully insufficient to make a dent, long-term or short.

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that the Surface* tablets will
eventually suffer a fate similar to the Zune. I also don't think it's too much
of a stretch to say that Microsoft has shown that it cannot compete in the
consumer space.

