
How the World's Most Difficult Bouldering Problems Get Made - sergeant3
http://www.outsideonline.com/2017711/path-beta-flash-resistance-route-setters
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DarkTree
For the unfamiliar: Anytime you are getting belayed with a rope, you are not
bouldering. All but the very top picture are considered "top-roping".
Bouldering problems are much shorter (generally under 20ft) and require you to
exert a shorter, but greater amount of effort when compared to roped-climbs of
a similar grade of difficulty. It's similar to comparing a sprint and
marathon.

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yread
Hey at least the videos are there - be sure to check it out. I've seen it
before so I've realized what the description was about which made it a lot
more interesting

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wutwatt
It was really fun watching climbers figure out the 360 degree campus move
described in the article.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69YVimEOX3I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69YVimEOX3I)

Problem 4 starts somewhere around 2:07:00.

Adam Ondra skipped the 360 by starting with arms crossed, somewhere around
2:28:??. I don't think he was the only one doing that, just the one I
remember. These contests show amazing ingenuity by both the setters and the
climbers.

Bouldering should be in the Olympics in 2020. As an occasional boulderer happy
with the sport's current reach and feel, I'm not sure how I feel about that...
it'll sure be fun to watch though.

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pierrec
_> Bouldering should be in the Olympics in 2020_

Climbing has been shortlisted among other sports that might get added, and the
proposition includes lead, speed and bouldering. Whether it will really happen
is doubtful (final decision will be announced in August 2016).

I think it would be great, but I should hope that the traditionally festive
ambiance of climbing competitions will not get tainted by the ridiculously
serious Olympics mindset.

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Eric_WVGG
omg I would watch the hell out of this

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djb_hackernews
When did the setter worship start? The gym I go to, Brooklyn boulders in
somerville ma, has pictures of the setters and little bios hanging on the
walls... for sure it is a creative process but give someone a bucket of holds
and an hour and you'll have something that is fun. A gym I used to go to used
to let pretty much anyone set, just had to ask.

I think this explains the rating "deflation" where there aren't really any V0s
because there is so much pressure to be known as a "hard" setter? Or possibly
the dedicated setters are so experienced they don't remember what a V0
actually is? Either way I've found it to be an issue when trying to introduce
climbing to novices.

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rryan
Hm, odd that you mention V0 as an example of deflation because at most gyms
I've been to V0 is an example of grade /inflation/.

In the Hueco V-scale, V0 is supposed to be equivalent to 5.10 in the Yosemite
Decimal System. But not a single gym I've been to sets V0s that are as hard as
5.10. Some gyms introduce a "VB" grade for beginners but their V0 is typically
not as hard as the 5.10 they set on ropes.

I've always chalked this up (heh) to a need to make an enjoyable "first climb"
experience for new climbers (who are typically messing around on boulders to
see if they like it before learning to belay). If you start bouldering and
can't even do the easiest problem in the gym then it's unlikely you're going
to have fun and come back.

Unfortunately this leads to disappointing (and in some cases, dangerous!)
first outdoor experiences since you try out a V3 and get absolutely shut down
because your gym's whole rating system is biased by 1-3 grades.

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dmurdoch
I've experienced what both of you are saying. Some gyms I go to have
exclusively hard stuff that is accurately related in relation to outdoors, and
then others have had crazy inflated rates. I find mainly lead routes inflated
though. I don't think any 12a 5.12a I've lead inside was really a 12a.

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gamegoblin
Something that really distinguishes bouldering gyms, for me, is the quality of
the route setting.

I've been in gyms in which there are routes that are interesting and
challenging at all levels. There are several variables the route setter can
manipulate:

* Various strength areas (fingers/wrist, upper arms/upper back, core, legs)

* Flexibility

* Balance

* Skill moves (matches, switches, flagging, heel/toe hooks, etc)

* Dynamic moves (jump and grab, throws, etc.)

I usually climb ~V5 routes, but a well set V2 that properly exercises all of
these different areas can still be fun to goof around on.

On the other hand, I've also climbed in gyms in which the routes are set
almost solely on the strength variables. Separating a V3 and a V6 are only
bigger, stronger moves. This makes for pretty dull climbing (in my opinion).

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caiobegotti
"But the setters are the wizards who really run the show. They are to a
climbing wall what coders are to a video game, the geeks who keep you up all
night obsessing over that winning sequence"

This analogy with coders is pretty sweet. I really miss indoor climbing and
bouldering, such fantastic mental exercises (which ironically relax you quite
a bit even though your whole body aches) after a long day of work in front of
a computer.

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DarkTree
Yeah I'd also be surprised if many programmers weren't climbers as well. Those
two activities are basically my favorite two things to do, and I believe they
complement each other very well. Much like programming, it gets harder the
better you get at it.

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Jtsummers
Climbing seems (outsider here) to provide a good combination of technical and
physical challenges. I've been getting back into martial arts (BJJ and, now,
wrestling, hopefully boxing soon) and have found the same thing there.
Ballroom dance, again, provides a nice combination of physical and technical
challenges.

I think that's what appeals to programmers (and similarly technically inclined
folks) about these hobbies and sports. You learn some basics, you develop the
skill and strength to perform them, and then you start applying the knowledge
in new and more creative ways to solve the problems you face on the boulder,
in the ring or on the dance floor.

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presidentender
Where do you find wrestling as an adult?

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Jtsummers
The MMA gym I attend for BJJ. The owner was a wrestler in HS and college.
There are a bunch of students (younger men than me) who have some background
in wrestling (HS, college or both, some still in that) so he started a couple
wrestling sessions a week for them. Also, some of the MMA guys wanted to learn
a bit of wrestling to add to their skill set if they didn't have it already.

EDIT: Random plug, though this probably won't apply to anyone here: Rush MMA
in downtown Macon, GA.

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etrautmann
At one point a few years ago when Max was setting routes in Boston, he was
free-soloing a 14d at Rumney (one of the harder climbs in the world, without a
rope, probably 40-50' tall), and fell on the last move of the climb. He broke
both his legs but survived, and later went on to make it through to the finals
of a bouldering competition with boots on both legs.

Unbelievable natural talent - I've seen him out at Dogpatch in SF easily
climbing v11's.

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beering
Max's accident was described in the article. Or did the article get it wrong?

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dmurdoch
They got it right actually, supernova is only about 30ft, super short lead
route, shorter than a lot of highball boulders out there. Which explains why
he tried to solo it. I don't think many people are trying to solo long single
pitch sport routes that hard.

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_nato_
Just for the record, Max, is a _beast_ of a climber. When I moved to the East
Bay, he finished one of the hardest outdoor climbs right in front of me one
afternoon in Berkeley. Incredibly strong & gifted climber (and route-setter,
apparently!)

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dmurdoch
There are some good videos[1] going through the mindset of setters as they set
problems that I feel explains the concept super well.

Also, another crossover between technology and climbing that has been doing
the rounds recently is this really interesting gamification of bouldering[2].
The guy uses a projector to put spots on a bouldering wall that the players
have to hit. Fastest time wins.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feveaPjUb4E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feveaPjUb4E)
[2] [http://joinrandori.com/blog](http://joinrandori.com/blog)

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peterwwillis
The one annoying thing to me about route setting is there's seemingly no
science to it (or at least I didn't get that from the article). I may climb a
V5 at one gym, but not be able to crack a V3 at another. It would be nice to
know if i'm really progressing or if Router Setter Bob just keeps labeling a
V3 as a V5.

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gamegoblin
Startup idea:

Make special climbing holds with RFID scanners in them. These are your
starting holds and your finishing holds.

Sell wristbands or something with RFID tags in them. RFID tag is coded to a
climber. Upon starting a route, the start hold scans your chip, and upon
finishing (if you finish) it gets scanned.

Now you can use an Elo rating algorithm (think chess ratings, or various video
games use it now, too) to rate both routes and climbers in a statistically
objective way. If there is any intermixing of climbers among gyms who both
have this system, you get cross-gym normalization for free.

Finishing a route counts as the climber "defeating" the route. Likewise,
failing a route counts as a route "defeating" the climber. This suffices to
create a rating, even though the matchmaking graph is bipartite (e.g. there is
no way to have two climbers play each other or two routes play each other).

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peterwwillis
Or, you know, just have people scan the QR code of routes they finish.

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gamegoblin
That would be the poor man's solution, but:

* A lot of people don't carry their phone around with them in the gym.

* Added friction. My favorite thing about bouldering (as opposed to top roping or something) is that I can just hop on and off the wall without any setup.

* Doesn't measure failures (unless people manually input them, which is adding friction on top of the annoyance of not finishing the route).

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peterwwillis
Many gyms already have QR codes on their routes and several climbing sites
accept them as part of entering your routes and discussing them. But if you
want to build a custom piece of hardware and manufacture it, convince people
and gyms to buy it and maintain it and then convince an existing site or
service to support it, good luck to ya

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Chefkoochooloo
Great discussion on bouldering from history to the technical aspects of the
holds. The piece isn't for everyone but anyone that wants to know more about
climbing in general it gives a great overview of the terminology used and
gives you a perspective from seasoned climbers and route setters.

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protomyth
Since this seams like the right crowd / article, are Climbing Wall Treadmills
worth the money and do they allow for setting the holds? Asking for a
community college environment.

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nathancahill
Yes, they allow setting holds. Can't say if they are worth the money though.
I've climbed on a demo and didn't particularly enjoy it. It's better suited
for people working on endurance (you can climb vertically for hours) instead
of technical ability.

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krick
I cannot express how much I hate these posts. I read the headline and I'm
getting all curious and want to know the answer. But hell no: "The route
setter studied the blank gray surface." and I already know the ⅘ of the text
will be pouring water, like telling me it was "a Tuesday in early June" and
what climbing holds were being made of in 1985 or something. So I'm left with
the choice: read it all or give it up after I'm already intrigued. Are these
journalists being paid by word or they're just honestly thinking they are
Scott goddamn Fitzgerald?

Worse than that, this particular post doesn't even quite answer the question.
Turns out it's pretty much of an art without any rules.

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dennisnedry
Typical fluff piece. Let's face it, bouldering (setting) is pretty boring, the
writer has to make it seem "more exciting" than it actually is.

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highstep
As a non-professional route setter I disagree - it's actually a very
interesting activity that is part science and part art. It involves a lot of
contemplation in the area of physics, body mechanics, and psychology.
Additionally it's a lot like game design in that the problem you create will
be interacted with extensive, obsessively and can result in significant
challenge, reward and frustration by the user.

But I'll admit I didn't read the article, because big media almost always does
a terrible job at covering climbing... let alone a niche of climbing that has
taken years of practice to understand and appreciate.

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tantalor
How they _are_ made, not _get_ made.

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caio1982
They get made by setters and get sent by climbers :-)

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knieveltech
O RLY? Go track down half a dozen Gill problems and come back and talk to me
about what route setters in the gym are doing.

