
Leading HIV researchers lost as flight MH17 is downed in Ukraine - antman
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/10975275/Leading-HIV-researchers-lost-as-flight-MH17-is-downed-in-Ukraine.html
======
polysics
This is what we get when humanity at large is wasting time on killing each
other over petty things such as race, land, oil and religion.

~~~
kolev
All recent wars are about energy (oil, gas, etc.) This is all very ridiculous
as we're living in an endless ocean of energy. Not to mention the toll on our
environment that those primitive energy sources cause. Instead of putting
efforts into super volcano event prediction, meteor shields, and other things
that can help us prevent the plethora of possibilities for an extinction
event, little people with shortsighted and pathologically egoistic vision are
controlling this planet. We need people like Elon Musk in charge - people who
want to take our civilization to the next level, not because of some personal
agenda, but because this is how they find happiness, and not let us rot in
wars, diseases, and poverty, which hasn't improved much in the last century. A
new order is needed, the so-called "democracy" is defunct and it only promotes
populist politicians that promise to the dumber majority things just to get
elected and shortly after election they forget their promises. Look at Obama -
he promised GMO labeling and other things, which completely forgot about. I
think all politicians should face criminal charges if they don't follow their
pre-election promises. This way, they will be very careful to promise things
they truly believe in and that can really happen. I really like Jacque
Fresco's vision about the next level of society that has scientific
advancement as the leading goal. Conveniently, the America's leading goal for
the past decade has been "War on Terror", which is a convenient vicious circle
as with all wars for oil and enforcing petrodollar hegemony, all America does
is fuel terrorism! It's like being a firefighter and an arsonist at the same
time - you'll never be out of a job. I think some people in Washington got too
afraid that Russia was becoming a good guy, and gaining momentum, and spurred
the conflicts in Syria and Ukraine to keep the convenient Cold War going on.

~~~
happyscrappy
>afraid that Russia was becoming a good guy

There is no chance of that until some Russians who want their country to join
the civilized world put a bullet in Putin's head.

~~~
tete
"want their country to join the civilized world" ⊥ "put a bullet in ∀ head"

~~~
happyscrappy
Frankly it is Russia's only hope. More likely he will live out his life in
luxury while his citizens suffer and Europe grovels for his oil.

~~~
tete
Suffer? Do you know any Russians? Have you ever been there? They don't seem to
suffer more than US people or Europeans to me. Well they have a ton of stupid
laws, lead wars, etc., but again that's also true for the US and many other
countries.

Like in most countries (again, including the US) it depends a lot on your
political views, gender, exact position (Texas vs north), etc.

Of course it's not Scandinavia, but I feel like which politician you consider
evil tends to mostly depends on whose propaganda you get.

I get that certain things are worse and that Russia is poorer and stuff, so
that sucks and that they don't care for a lot of rights, but then you look at
Afghan and Iraq war, look at Guantanamo, random police violence or the state
of lethal punishments and things are put into perspective, seeing that they
just have different problems, but not really more.

Also historically Eastern countries tend have been worse at hiding relations
between private and political interests, how media is manipulated or how it's
always the same kind of politics, regardless of votes. That's true. In Russia
censorship is direct, while in the US you have DMCA take downs, national
security letters, secret law interpretations, etc.

About democracy/parties: All bigger countries (China, Russia, US, ...) appear
to have basically one major party with the same opinion and different branches
of opinions in this party. Since they are actually mentioned in media, while
opposition is not there is no serious chance for any opposition. This leads
political stagnation in all of them. The US has two branches, not agreeing on
exact spendings, but both pro-war, pro-capital-punishment, pro-capitalism,
pro-neo-liberalism, privatized prisons and against human rights in the sense
of international courts, welfare system (basic infrastructure, free/cheap
water/education) ... They are very nationalist. Something also unique to super
powers.

That may sound like something bad, but it seems to be a necessity to keep big
societies at least somewhat stable. History has shown that.

I might be missing something though, so please tell me how Russians suffer
more than people in another (non-scandinavian) country.

I agree on the oil part. Gas too. But again compare that with other countries,
the US goes on war for oil and gas, pressuring Europe via imports. I agree,
Europe being more independent from such things would be a good thing.

It seems that a lot of the bad stuff in countries depends a lot on their age
and actual size. China is the oldest and population wise biggest country,
requiring the most control for stability, having the most troubles, followed
by India with slightly less population, but big age, less control, but
therefor way bigger problems, followed by Russia and the US, where the US has
a bigger population, but is also way younger than Russia.

Russia is a lot like the US with a big tea party. I guess that's their main
problem, but then even with Putin it was just as much of an up and down as
with Bush and Obama.

I just really don't think that things will change so quickly, neither in the
US, nor in Russia. However, I think they are doing an equally good/bad job in
regard to their current circumstances, making the US a better place to live,
but maybe not too much. A liberal movement in Russia, pushing Putin into one
direction and a stronger tea party with a republican president in the US could
change that.

Even though both countries are rivals they don't seem to be that dissimilar,
just US having a couple of benefits (world language, winning various wars in
the past century, ...). China could take that lead in the next decades,
especially when Russia and the US keep fighting like that.

~~~
happyscrappy
The Russians I know all fought to stay in the States. Things are getting worse
according to them and they were already bad. The coming sanctions will make
things worse but it is better than a full on war with Russia. Despite being
backwards they are still well armed. Without Putin maybe they could become
more like Europe. They certainly can't while he is in power paying off his
cronies and supporting brainless stooges in Ukraine.

It may make feel better to pretend that the US is as bad as Russia but you
probably know you are lying to yourself.

~~~
tete
> The Russians I know all fought to stay in the States.

Russia or Soviet Union? The thing is I also know Jews who fled to the US from
Europe (Germany, Poland, France, Austria, ...) in WW2 and came back. The same
thing happened in the Soviet Union, the DDR, etc.

Things changed since then. I know Russians visiting every now and then. They
know all the things that suck about Russia, like I stated. The worst thing
currently appears to be the anti-homosexual laws and gangs and people flee
because of that.

Anyway, we seem to know different people then. ;)

Speaking about fleeing: There are even Crimean people fleeing to Russia or US
citizens, such as Snowden.

> It may make feel better to pretend that the US is as bad as Russia but you
> probably know you are lying to yourself.

I usually don't quote myself, but... "I get that certain things are worse and
that Russia is poorer and stuff, so that sucks "

But again: What makes you think that getting rid of one single person changes
that much? There is a whole regime. Yes, we could use other examples, but I
think here on HN most people know the US the best. If Obama would get killed
lets say by some leftist socialist terrorist or some Islamist, whatever, do
you really think the US would become socialist or Islamic? No? Why do you
think that killing Putin would then change things?

If you go back in history only a couple of years and look at the DDR: No
political action, no big sanctions, cold or hot war changed something. It was
more the ordinary people who changed things making nations tremble. Can go
really fast.

And why so defensive? Aren't the statements about all these things being
really bad true, war and murder, not caring about people in general and
spreading hate, disinformation and fear by one nation is just as bad as by
another. I know, hardcore nationalist on both sides may never understand that,
but I'd think the average Hacker News reader isn't that blinded by propaganda.
Come on, you don't really think killing someone really solves a problem. Just
means the next person in a row takes a seat there. Doesn't mean that person is
better. Look at North Korea or China. Did things really change to the better
with switching leaders? Yeah, things sometimes switch but usually it's kinda
switched. One thing will be better, but someone else things come up. Russia
reduced weapons, pretty much abolished death penalty and wages less war, using
gas sanctions, while reducing civil freedoms. Actually that is also a bit like
in the US. Civil freedoms (even though stuff like freedom of expression,
privacy, protests, ...) reduced and in most states there is no lethal
punishment anymore. China still is really bad to any opposition, has the death
penalty (with extremely long queues), lots of censorship, harassment of
opposition, but has more economic freedoms, a... well, at least for the
population living in cities good welfare systems, while reducing other rights.

The problem is that when we always point at the worst spot we will end up
being the worst. Instead comparing with the best should be the goal.
Scandinavia was just an example, since they really are on top of things
currently, but also New Zealand and others seem to be on top of things.

~~~
happyscrappy
In the West governments have a balance of power, especially the US. Opposing
Putin in Russia means no business and death by Polonium. I am not sure why you
wish to defend a murderous dictator, the people of Russia deserve European
style freedom and as long as glorious Putin is alive they will have none.

Russians have a cursed capacity for suffering and I don't blame them for being
afraid of Putin, but eventually someone should take him out for the sake of
the country. The longer the citizens of Russia are denied basic freedoms the
more irrelevant Russia becomes. There is no need for this besides Putin's
greed.

------
robhu
Does anyone know why the MH17 story was kept off HN yesterday?

I kept seeing it appear in new and then on the front page and then it would
vanish. I guess admins were deleting it? Is there a policy reason why it isn't
something 'good hackers would find interesting' ?

~~~
davidw
Because of the guidelines:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

"If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic."

For me, the "interesting" thing means a deeper knowledge of some facet of the
world, not shallow reporting of breaking news.

~~~
robhu
IIRC when the other Malaysian Airlines plane went missing that went up on HN,
and that was before all the 'hacker friendly' tracking technique stories.

~~~
davidw
People are unfortunately probably going to post stuff like this, guidelines or
not. It gets flagged and or moderated down pretty quickly in most cases,
though.

~~~
danieldk
Why unfortunately? In such cases, HN usually provides a lot of insightful
technical comments. If a mainstream news item considers technology or failures
thereof, I don't see why it doesn't belong on HN.

~~~
robhu
This article has been knocked off the front page again :(

The prior article was also administratively removed from the front page, even
though it had a really high score
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8049813](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8049813)

------
digita88
It is a political mess as well as a tragedy. Malaysia is still dealing with
the extra negative press because it's a Malaysian Airlines flight. The plane
fell on Ukraine despite it being shot down by pro-Russian separatists and now
Putin is juggling the responsibility to the Ukraine because that is where the
plane fell.

~~~
estebank
The plane fell on the pro-russian "independent" part of Ukraine self-
proclaimed as Donetsk People's Republic[1]. If the Kiev government wanted to
get where the plane fell, as it stands now, it'd have to be a military
incursion into enemy territory.

[1]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People's_Republic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People's_Republic)

------
macspoofing
Just adds to the tragedy. What a disaster.

------
wilsonfiifi
Excuse my ignorance but I would have thought that the Ukrainian airspace would
be restricted due to the ongoing 'conflict'. Surely they could have used a
different route no?

~~~
morkbot
_The European air traffic control body, Eurocontrol, said Ukrainian
authorities had banned aircraft from flying at 32,000ft or below and the
doomed aircraft had been cruising above that, at 33,000ft – however this
apparently still left it within range of the sophisticated surface-to-air
weaponry that pro-Russia forces have been using recently to target Ukrainian
military aircraft. All civilian flights have now been barred from the area of
eastern Ukraine._

[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-pressure-o...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-pressure-
on-russia-as-world-demands-answers-over-planes-destruction)

~~~
wilsonfiifi
So it didn't occur to either the Ukrainian authorities or Eurocontrol that due
to the existence of advanced weaponry and the remote possibility that either
faction could gain access to them, civilian flights should be barred from that
airspace? Was the economic impact of rerouting flights so high that they were
willing to take the risk with civilians?

~~~
rasz_pl
if you look at the mh17 flight patch for the last couple of weeks you will
notice that they all flew different route (west or over the sea of azov). This
downed plane took extra steps (100km to the east) to fly over the war zone,
almost as if pilots wanted selfies with russian troops in the background.

[http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/10...](http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK)

~~~
yread
That's not really true, check out this comparison of flight paths:

[http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/07/17/mh17/4f...](http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/07/17/mh17/4fbce571a89fe76a609bde4b925f389d4e0d4d54/flight-
paths-ai2html-460.png)

It was a route taken by SQ ,KL and others

EDIT: oops sorry I haven't realized the labels aren't part of the image, I
took it from here

[http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/m...](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-
of-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.html)

~~~
rasz_pl
Maybe it was (I didnt check other airlines), but this flight always flew at
least 100km to the west.

Might be weather conditions this particular day pushing all the planes north
east. I have zero idea about air traffic, is there an airport doing flight
control for the region that would reroute all the planes over the effing war
zone because of some rain clouds?

~~~
yread
> I didnt check other airlines

Perhaps I can point you to the link in the comment to which you've replied
which plots the courses of flights of Malaysian and other airlines from the
past weeks so that you can check?!

------
aspanda
Though grim but i can't help but wonder about the mythological philosophy
"everything happens for the good and for a reason". Extremely
uncanny...condolences to the people onboard.

------
ulfw
That's just horrible :(

------
NietTim
Man, that'll get the conspiracies going... What a tragedy

~~~
tzaman
That was my first thought too - I don't really believe in conspiracies, but
this one got me thinking immediately.

~~~
capisce
What did it get you thinking??

~~~
tzaman
Well, AIDS/HIV has always had this _reputation_ of being created by man
(didn't do any research on it personally though, so this is based purely on
word of mouth, I guess). So when I discovered the news it occurred to me that
it's quite a big coincidence that the leading scientists die in a plane crash,
especially now, that we're starting to see some people getting successfully
cured of HIV.

Not sure why I'm getting downvoted above.

~~~
theintern
Because it's ridiculous to think this is a conspiracy? It's a complete
coincidence. On any long range flight like this you're likely to find a big
bunch of people heading to some conference or other. Especially one like this
that's a convenient link between Europe and Asia.

It's also 100 people from a conference of 25,000.

------
tinfoilman
Ah look at that, 100 HIV researches lost in a Pro Russian Rebel attack. Seems
like their perfect target to be fair given Russians stance on it all.

Before anyone says we don't know it was pro Russian rebels. I think it is
pretty safe to say it is, we have the rebels admitting on twitter 1-2 weeks
ago they stole a medium range anti air craft. Then yesterday just at the plane
went down they twitted they get a Ukrainian military cargo plane, The tweets
of both the capture of the medium range anti air gun AND the downing on the
military jet both go missing, and today a new statement of it was not them.

But what the fuck is anyone going to do, Russia don't care and their people
are behind them 100%.

A shift is coming....

~~~
TausAmmer
They were expecting military plane, they were told THIS plane is military
plane and they shot it down. And after that, they were very surprised to find
sea of bodies, not military equipment.

~~~
Holbein
What a load of bullcrap... "where told".

If you have a equipment to down planes, it's also your duty to have the proper
radar equipment to reliably see what's up there, something that those Rebels
did not have. They just stole equipment out of their league, did not know how
to handle it and killed 300 innocent travelers.

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
This is right. It has been pointed out that both the Ukrainian government and
the rebels now have the capability to do this, the Ukrainian government has
had it for a long time, without incident. Because under a government it is
operated by soldiers who follow procedures and have access to the data about
known civilian flights.

~~~
runlevel1
Tragically, the Ukrainian government has had an incident.

On October 4, 2001 they accidentally shot down Siberia Airlines Flight 1812,
killing 78.[1]

For what it's worth, I do agree with your sentiment.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812)

~~~
markdown
Nobody beats the US though. They shot down a huge passenger aircraft and then
claimed they thought it was an F-15.

~~~
SG-
It gets a bit worse than that I believe, officially to this date the blame is
still on Iran for flying an airliner according to it's flight plan and in the
commercial traffic corridor.

------
polyx
Is it only me or does this news story has conspiracy written all over it?

~~~
adamnemecek
It's only you.

------
nomercy400
Wait a minute,

\- Why are 100 HIV experts on the same plane in the first place? Hasn't
somebody realized this is a risk and usually considered 'a bad idea'? \- Why
are they all flying across the entire world (Amsterdam-Melbourne) to visit a
conference? If you have to fly 100 people around the world for just a
conference, isn't it a better idea to hold the conference in a location
nearby, say Europe (depends on how many are coming from Australia of course)?

Of course, it's absolutely terrible what happened yesterday and the mood here
(NL) isn't great. Don't get me wrong on that part.

~~~
ars
> Hasn't somebody realized this is a risk

It's horrible what happened, but you can't call it a risk. There's a bigger
risk from them taking the bus to the conference.

Heck, there's a bigger risk just all being in the same building.

Also, when I read the article it made it seem like these 100 were the top
people in the field, but other replies made it clear that while it's a big
loss there are a huge number of people in the conference.

~~~
adventured
Not exactly true. That would only apply if we were talking about all flights
on average and ignoring the unique situation of flying near the Ukraine -
Russia border right now.

I would say the risk is dramatically higher in that region - clearly - than
for your average flight. It's a war zone in which they're now shooting down
planes flying at high altitudes.

