
Why online dating is broken - amirn
http://blog.7pmanywhere.com/why-online-dating-is-broken/
======
overgard
Here's the problem as I see it: most natural interactions you have with other
people almost always involve a "social object" (Here's a good introduction on
the concept: [http://gapingvoid.com/2007/12/31/social-objects-for-
beginner...](http://gapingvoid.com/2007/12/31/social-objects-for-beginners/)
).

Online dating sites really don't provide any useful social objects other than
photos and "interests". Even socially intelligent people are going to
generally fumble around a bit if they're forced to try to create a
conversation with no real context. "So.. uh.. you're interested in skiing. I
also like skiing too!"

The other problem is that expressions of interest are incredibly overt. I
think the sites tend to ignore the power of flirting. The whole point of
flirting is that there has to be a sense of uncertainty. That you MIGHT be
interested, if they're cool... Without a sense of flirting, you end up with
the uncomfortable "shopping" sort of metaphor. I mean, think about something
like facebook -- I can comment on a girls link and say something clever,
without being incredibly obvious about being interested, but if she's also
interested there's at least a little bit of play that can go on there, right?

I don't think the solution to the dating problem is social networks per se,
but there has to be some way of signalling some interest without the
incredibly overt mechanisms dating sites currently offer, and there has to be
a way of interacting that is a bit more indirect.

Incidentally, while I don't think World of Warcraft is a great dating model, I
know a few friends who have met their current girlfriends on there. It's
inefficient given the amount of time sunk, but I do think it sort of
highlights what I said above -- in this sense, World of Warcraft (and the
things that happen in the game) are the "social object", and natural
relationships were able to evolve out of that.

I do, though, agree with the article that the entire idea of "matching" is
ineffective.

~~~
twiceaday
Perhaps the solution is to create a website with multi-user activities (such
as games) whose direct purpose is some trivial objective but whose actual goal
is to provide a casual, flirty, social environment.

~~~
potatolicious
And we've come full circle :)

"Going to bars, joining clubs/teams, etc etc, is suuuuch a horrible time-
consuming meat market."

"We'll fix this with _technology_!" [insert inspirational music]

[fast forward a few years]

"Online dating is suuuuuch a horrible time-consuming meat market."

"Let's get people to gather together to do something easy whose primary intent
is actually providing an open environment for interaction!"

Maybe offline dating wasn't as bad as we made it out to be ;)

FWIW, OKCupid is doing just that in NYC - i.e. gender ratio-controlled IRL
group events for singles.

------
jey
While this is a nice ad for their site with a novel take on online dating, its
claims about other dating sites are pretty wrong. Every dating site sees its
primary objective as not scaring away the women, and designs itself
accordingly.

The 7pmanywhere concept doesn't really make sense to me though -- why should
matchmaking happen using realtime chat? Doesn't that just limit the pool too
much, if you have to find good matches from the people who happen to be on the
site at the same time as you? Aside from that, at least they're trying
something different and new.

~~~
toast76
I guess that's why it runs at 7pm, to ensure that people in an area are online
at the same time?

~~~
amirn
Exactly!

------
curt
Getting a response from online dating isn't that hard and an actual date only
took 2 or 3 messages. I think it's that most people just don't know how to
communicate. It took me a bit of experimentation on what works, but once I
figured it out I didn't have any problems. When I did okCupid I was a bit over
50%. Now I'm 6'8" and in shape but I'm definitely not Brad Pitt. My favorite
first date topic was asking girls about their other online dates. They had
horror stories about extremely awkward guys that had no idea how to interact
with the opposite sex.

While this elegantly solves the messaging problem. Guys that never win won't
stick around. Also how much information are you hiding from both parties? Just
the picture or more? Most men and women have certain standards, height, look,
build, etc. I have quite a few close female friends and they all have a
minimum set of standards which exclude 95%+ of men.

~~~
hnwh
> I have quite a few close female friends and they all have a minimum set of
> standards which exclude 95%+ of men.

So do I... in their 30s'. But in my case, that's why they're all still
(deservedly) single

~~~
svachalek
I call this attitude "I'm only single because I'm not picky enough". Kind of
how people interviewing for programming jobs are self-selected to have a real
problem with FizzBuzz, this seems to be a very common issue with online
dating. I haven't seen any sites that try to address it, and don't really have
any idea as to how they would.

------
svachalek
Being out of the age where friend circles include lots of singles, I spent a
few years on the online dating circuit. It worked out for me in the end, but
it's a pretty miserable process and none of the new sites (including this one,
sorry) seem to fix the fundamental problem of de-personalization.

If I were on the market in this day and age, I'd definitely stick to Meetup
and similar sites where you can join a singles group and go to events where
you can do something fun/interesting/comfortable and meet a lot of eligible
singles in the process. More importantly you are presenting your real-world
self and meeting theirs, bypassing all the vaguely sociopathic behavior that's
more or less normal on the dating sites.

~~~
potatolicious
> _"'d definitely stick to Meetup and similar sites where you can join a
> singles group"_

Been there. Wasn't fun.

The problem with ungated singles groups is that it turns _very_ heavily into a
gigantic sausagefest, even in cities with relatively decent dating scenes.

It reminds me of the Microsoft parties I've gone to back when I lived in
Seattle. You can spot all seven women at the party by the clusters of men
surrounding them.

For singles groups to work a gender ratio must be enforced, but that also
gives group organizers a lot of leeway to be generally not-awesome people. It
also brings out some of the uglier sides of humanity.

I was once part of an "Asian Americans" Meetup group, which like most Meetup
groups is a pretty flimsy facade for a singles group. There was a major row
where a white user wanted to join - IIRC the guy was raised in Asia and had a
strong interest in Asian culture. The male membership of the group revolted,
citing pretty much every lame reason except the real one. A vote was taken,
where the female membership voted in a landslide to allow the guy in, and the
male membership the opposite. The ban stood, some (thankfully some) people
left the group in protest, including myself.

This was an exceptionally blatant experience, but I wouldn't put this past
most Meetup groups, ethnicity or otherwise. Meetup groups with a singles slant
(i.e., most of them), seems to bring out the most territorial, the least
charitable, and the least _human_ qualities in people.

~~~
svachalek
Hmm, I've noticed that most meetups, even without a singles theme, lean
heavily towards singles, so maybe the ones that are less blatant are better
targets. In my experience the turnout is majority-female (assuming it's not a
heavily biased topic like programming or stock trading) here in Silicon Valley
where millionaires outnumber single women by 10 to 1 (I exaggerate, a little)
so I'm surprised to hear it isn't so everywhere.

------
brady8
I met my wife on eHarmony, and every date I went on before that through the
site was great, with interesting, intelligent women (although the chemistry
wasn't there until I met my wife). I don't know if eHarmony has the problem
solved in its entirety, but the quality of my matches leads me to believe that
they're doing something well, and something well worth the money.

~~~
svachalek
Ditto, although I suspect it's less about the matching algorithm and more
about

(1) a matching process that prevents spamming and forces (well, paradoxically
it _optionally_ forces) a back-and-forth interaction before dropping into the
standard e-mail mode and

(2) a female-male ratio greater than 1 which further turns around the usual
dynamic of overwhelmed women choosing between invisible men

------
sage_joch
They have identified the problem with online dating: men don't get responses
and women get bombarded with messages. It seems like a simple fix might be to
have a rule that says only women can initiate conversations (for the
heterosexual segment). Has this been tried yet?

~~~
citricsquid
(Normally) women don't initiate, even if they're interested.

~~~
makomk
Yeah, and on the flip side I doubt most men will be comfortable with women
initiating until the social norms around turning women down become less messed
up.

------
mistercow
>Further, virtually every academic (read: non-biased) study on the topic of
compatablity indicates no correlation between successful relationships and
personality/interest based matching.

I'd be interested in reading these studies, but I'm coming up dry searching
Google scholar. The best I can find is an article saying that the research
that has been done on match systems for online dating is inadequate.

I'm also not clear on how you would even do a good study on that. First of
all, is it a controlled study? I find it very difficult to believe, for
example, that two people rated on OKC as 10% a match would be as likely to get
past the first date as two people ranked as 90%. But if you're not controlling
that variable, you're going to be collecting data on match ratings in the
range of 80-100%, and it seems very likely that any possible distinction would
be lost in the noise at that point.

Moreover, dating site match-making algorithms are not necessarily just a raw
number. Taking OKC as an example again, some people might just look at the raw
score, while others actually go through and see what conflicting answers were
given. A good study on these systems would need to account for these different
types of users, as it is very plausible that the latter type is getting a lot
more value out of the rating system than the former type.

~~~
amirn
A good resource for finding articles on this is:
<http://www.onlinepersonalswatch.com/internetdatingscience/>

------
papaver
After some thought, Ultima IV popped into my head. Specifically the beginning
of the game when the player is asked several questions which don't necessarily
have a correct answer but do in effect slant the players morality in one
direction or the other.

 _Thee and thy friend are valiant but penniless warriors. Thou both go out to
slay a mighty dragon. Thy friend thinks he slew it, thee did. When asked, dost
thou A) Truthfully claim the gold B) Allow thy friend the large reward?_

Has anyone attempted to use such metrics to find matches between individuals?

I've also noticed that couples who have different interests actually engage in
more sharing. Seems like sometimes when both partners have to many interests
in line, it is a cause of detachment instead of bonding.

------
spdy
Oh this is like an old tv dating show in Germany called "Herzblatt". Stopped
10 years ago but was very popular.

Its the same concept.

~~~
fatalerrorx3
There was a show in the US around the same time, but can't remember the name,
but it was the same concept

~~~
joshschreuder
There was a show in Australia called Perfect Match [1] based on another called
The Dating Game [2] which is fairly similar (asking questions to 3 members of
the opposite sex in a blind date format)

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_Match_(Australian_game_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_Match_\(Australian_game_show\))
[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dating_Game>

------
keesj
Reminds me of the ElemiDate[1] app (not launched yet):

"ElimiDate is a fun and new approach to dating. We all know how girls like
getting guys` attention, and how guys are ready to show off to be the only
ones in the horizon. This is what ElimiDate is all about. A girl sets up the
game and creates the first task, perhaps "Take a picture of your shoes". Then
five guys join the game and compete against each other to make the best
impression. After each round the girl elimidates the worst-performing guy. At
the end of the game the girl has to make a final decision: whether elimidate
or date the lucky winner and connect through a chat." [2]

[1] <http://www.elimidateapp.com/> [2] <http://betali.st/startups/elimidate>

~~~
amirn
Yeah, they came out of SW London halfway through 2012 if I'm thinking of the
right group. There's a few different sites that seem to be converging around
the same idea.

------
dorkrawk
Is your company The Dating Game?

~~~
amirn
That may have been the inspiration... though in Oz it's called The Perfect
Match ;)

------
etherael
This problem is extremely culturally localised, look at the rash of mail order
bride sites, not in isolation but as to what it suggests. Just because the
market works one way within one culture is absolutely not a global indicator
that this must always be so.

And to immunise myself from potential responses of "ewww, mail order brides
are creepy", I'm not actually suggesting using those services, merely pointing
out that if markets exist where women happily engage in such practices,
consider what it implies about normal dating locally in some instances.

The western cultural experience is not the only option on the table.

~~~
amirn
Not sure I get how the example relates to the point your making. But agree
100% that Western culture is not the be all and end all.

It is the market we're playing in though...

~~~
etherael
Not the market you _need_ to be playing in, something enormously frequently
overlooked when a localised problem arises here I have found, is all.

------
hapless
I like the overall scheme. If information overload for women is the hard part,
that's the thing to focus on.

That said, how will you attract men to a site where they are likely to be
filtered into oblivion? The mainstream dating sites may, in reality, be
useless to many men, but by giving subscribers the ability to actively _do_
something, they may _feel_ like they're making contact.

Conversely, how will you handle women who "shoot too high" ? (i.e. If female
subscribers filter too hard, they may not get the response rates they desire.)

~~~
amirn
Funnily enough, we've found if you make it enjoyable for women, it's more
enjoyable for men.

It's true that some guys will get the harsh end of the filter stick. But with
this method it's easier to know where exactly you're failing. If you get
knocked out at first selection each time - you need to improve your answers.
If you get to the end repeatedly but have no luck - maybe a better photo.

~~~
harlanlewis
I think you have the actions to improve reversed.

~~~
amirn
What do you mean?

~~~
harlanlewis
Nothing serious :) Getting knocked out at the first selection likely has more
to do with the photo than the answers - visceral filters occur first.

~~~
amirn
"visceral filters occur first" - Agreed.

Except girls only see the photo of the last guy remaining - so all they have
to go on is the answers ;)

------
stared
There is a well known problem of building a service requiring two different
communities (e.g. sellers and buyers, teachers and students).

And sometimes the actual problem is that the distinction is made explicit,
where it shouldn't be (once I had a problem, as I by mistake registered in
one, and couldn't use the same e-mail to register in the second - even if
there was some overlap).

Here it is an interesting example of the opposite. And also, a practical
remark against political correctness :).

~~~
amirn
Thanks!

Agreed that what we're doing might not be viewed as PC. But the opposite
argument - that women and men are the same, doesn't make any sense.

------
nostromo
Just a polite critique: the blog seems a bit lacking in tact. I would think
twice about using the service given the tone of the other articles.

~~~
3am_hackernews
A couple more things I encountered when trying to sign-up: 1\. I could not see
New York, SFo on this list. Which are the current target cities? 2\. Upload a
JPEG only picture. Really?

~~~
amirn
Thanks for the feedback, we'll look into it!

------
hello_newman
Love the idea of a blog post that is a plug for your company. I am not being
snide or sarcastic, I think it was a great approach.

Btw, played around with 7pmanywhere and it is a great idea and execution! Keep
up the good work!

~~~
amirn
Thanks. Appreciate it :)

