
UK and Sweden veto espionage talks between US and Europe - mhomde
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/05/us-blocks-espionage-talks-europe-nsa-prism
======
cseelus
After their hefty wiretap law of 2008, the strange circumstances of the 2010
allegations against Assange and now this, it seems to me that their ties with
US intelligence and administration are tighter than many swedish citizens
realize.

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jfaucett
I would be very interested to know what a swede has to say about this. My
general impression of Sweden (at least sitting here in Germany), is that it is
a liberal minded country by european standards - that is that in general the
scandanavian countries are on the forefront as leading examples of how modern
societies should behave.

This article seems to imply the opposite, why would Sweden veto this unless
they have some serious spionage going on themselves? For me, it also makes the
assange affair seem more dubious than before as if Sweden were basically
following US mandate.

~~~
speeder
Sweden have done other... weird things.

For example, during the H1N1 vaccinations, a Finland woman that had some good
credibility, pointed that the Sweden vaccines were dangerous, she claimed that
Sweden had some sort of conspiracy with the US to get rid of young people.

Lots of people believed it was balooney at the time, but now we have Swedish
young people with narcolepsy because of the vaccine (it only affected those
below 20).

Now the balooney claim, look a lot less balooney... But I still wonder what
the hell is going on sometimes... All of my ideas fail both henlan and occam
razors, but maybe there IS some conspiracy really going on...

~~~
nossralf
Please cite facts, not unsubstantiated tinfoil hat material devoid of
citations.

I has been shown [1] that the risk of being affected by narcolepsy among
children vaccinated with Pandremix is 4.19 times higher than the risk among
children that were not vaccinated with that particular vaccine. This in
Sweden, related to the H1N1 mass vaccinations.

69 verified diagnoses of narcolepsy were found among vaccinated children. It
has not been proven that all cases of narcolepsy were directly caused by the
vaccine.

Your claim that this Finnish woman's assertion that the Swedish gov't in
cahoots with the US gov't wanted to "get rid of young people" is somehow not
"balooney" is patently ridiculous based on the simple facts.

[1] [http://www.lakemedelsverket.se/OVRIGA-SIDOR/Den-nya-
influens...](http://www.lakemedelsverket.se/OVRIGA-SIDOR/Den-nya-
influensan-H1N1/Fragor-och-svar-om-narkolepsi-efter-pandemivaccination/)
(Swedish)

~~~
th0br0
A similar paper can also be found on PubMed

Increased childhood incidence of narcolepsy in western Sweden after H1N1
influenza vaccination.
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23486871](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23486871)

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pfortuny
This is another example of the real life ungovernability of the EU in relevant
things.

On the other hand they pass a lot of truly relevant laws like a new one
concerning the minimum distance of chickens in egg-farming plants in 2012:
just in the middle of the crisis, Greece, Ireland &c.

We are so happy here...

~~~
gahahaha
I believe in the idea of a united Europe, but it is hard to see how we can get
to there from here. Right now it is a bit like a Polish parliament (
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_parliament_%28expressio...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_parliament_%28expression%29)
) in that a small country that has a particularly stupid government at the
moment (or that can be strong-armed or corrupted by an empire like the US) can
block sensible reform. And we all know how well Poland did when they were
unable to make any decisions....

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etiam
This is very interesting, especially in the light of the coup-like conditions
that surrounded legalizing the FRA mass surveillance. However, this source is
a populist extreme right newspaper. It has low credibility and regularly
carries antagonism against the democratic parties. Can we have an independent,
credible source verify the claims?

~~~
drsintoma
| Swedish media chose not to report on Sweden's actions

Can you confirm if this part is true?

~~~
petriw
Both DN and SvD have reported on it:

[http://www.dn.se/ekonomi/sverige-uppges-ha-stoppat-
spionsamt...](http://www.dn.se/ekonomi/sverige-uppges-ha-stoppat-spionsamtal/)

[http://www.svd.se/nyheter/utrikes/sverige-dras-in-i-
spionska...](http://www.svd.se/nyheter/utrikes/sverige-dras-in-i-
spionskandal_8326772.svd)

It's not big news however.

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mtgx
I wonder what they have to hide...

~~~
Spearchucker
Sweden isn't alone in this - the UK also vetoed the investigation. This
investigation is one of two, the other being into data protection and EU
citizens' right to privacy, which will go ahead.

[http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/05/us-blocks-
espionag...](http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/05/us-blocks-espionage-
talks-europe-nsa-prism)

~~~
lostlogin
The veto is such a blunt tool. How the hell is it helpful? It seems anti
democratic and very dictatorial to me.

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doe88
I really didn't know they were so much aligned on US positions.

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moondowner
Well, it's a special relationship after all.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Relationship#Intellige...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Relationship#Intelligence_sharing)

~~~
sentenza
To me as a supporter of the European Project, the entire thing is
heartbreaking. We now have two crises that could possibly be the defining
"history book moments" of our century badly mishandled by the "leaders" of
Europe.

The UK managed to stop the EU from speaking with one voice so that each little
country now has to send its easily ignorable complaints by itself. Good job.

Today is the day that I, as a continental European, have become a supporter of
a swift EU exit for the UK. Trojan horses not welcome.

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doe88
Note I wouldn't exclude that such a move would also satisfy my own country
(France). I think the hypocrisy of our governments is maximal.

