
Someone's stealing our identity on Apple's App Store - briandilley
http://www.flipagr.am/press/
======
Steko
"On August 22nd, 2013..."

"We were under the impression that Apple would protect us from being in a
situation like this. "

Frankly it sounds like you were under the impression that Apple is able to
universally and fairly adjudicate all claims in less than 24 hours. That's
silly.

What if the fraudster complained about you and Apple acted too quickly and
tossed your app? I mean sure your app was there first but in lots of cases the
service exists before any app and you can imagine someone come in and puts out
an app for foo.com before they put out the official one.

While your case is more cut and dried than most a big corporation is not going
to have a different procedure for every precious snowflake. I do hope the book
is eventually thrown at this creep though!

~~~
nashequilibrium
As developers and entrepreneurs we need to be more outraged about this and not
start off attacking the victim and just adding compassion at the end of your
comment. I really sympathize with this guy, the hard work you put in, the
countless hours sacrificed and someone rips that from you. Even if it s for 5
minutes those minutes will feel like a really long time. This app should not
have been approved in the first place since it is such a gross ripoff that it
is actually theft and apple failed it's developer community here. Every hour
that passes this guy has customers having a different product experience and
he is losing money. Sucks!

------
bowlofpetunias
Slightly off-topic, but how smart is it to build a startup that depends on not
one but two platforms that can both unilaterally kill you at any moment?

The product isn't even interesting enough for Instagram/Facebook to bother to
buy the company if they wanted to add that particular feature.

This isn't a startup, it's the virtual equivalent of a temporary pop-up store.

~~~
threeseed
The funny (well not for them) is that Flipagram falls afoul of Instagram's new
naming policy. So it looks like without the identification with Instagram the
app/startup could well die.

[http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/19/instagram-cracks-down-on-
co...](http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/19/instagram-cracks-down-on-connected-
apps-using-insta-and-gram/)

------
tl
> The next day we finally received a response which indicated that Apple had
> no intention of helping us with this situation. They asked that we
> communicate with the developer and keep them apprised of our progress.

INAL, but doesn't the DMCA apply here? They took content (images, etc...) from
your app and attempted to distribute / sell it as their original work. If
Apple's response is not an immediate takedown of the accused app, haven't they
violated the safe harbor provisions?

~~~
lambada
Unless the company submitted a formal DMCA notice to Apple, then Apple have no
obligation to do anything under the DMCA, and so cannot have violated the DMCA
process.

(Pre-emptive edit): Although the company says they filed "filed copyright and
trademark violations" that doesn't necessarily mean that the copyright notice
was a DMCA notice.

------
fnayr
Thank God they ignored it. I've been developing apps on iOS for 3+ years and
we get legal notices from Apple all the time that another company is trying to
get our app shut down for completely frivolous reasons. If Apple put
themselves as the arbiter of these disputes it would be horrible.

~~~
jacquesm
By having a review process Apple _did_ put themselves up as the arbiter of any
disputes.

~~~
jdjb
Even without a review process by making the device locked to their App store
they put themselves in charge (and responsible) for these sorts of matter.

------
honzzz
If the guys from Flipagram are reading this - why would you contact Apple
about this? Eastern European countries have lawyers and courts too. And not
only can hiring a good lawyer in some Eastern European country be much (much!)
cheaper than in the US but if you win the lawsuit the other party will
probably have to pay reasonable part (if not all) of your legal expenses.

And it might be helpful to try to understand the mentality of post-communist
countries. One of the biggest damages that communist regime did to our society
is the perception still engrained in minds of many that 'if you don't steal
you are stealing from your family'.

It is totally plausible that the fraudulent developer is just 'trying their
luck' and all it would take to stop them would be threatening them with the
lawsuit. One letter written by your Enghlish speaking lawyer hired over the
internet - $500 and you will be done with it.

~~~
taway2012
The comment by 'victorantos' here is useful. But he seems to be hellbanned.
Please turn on showdead in your prefs so that you can see his comment.

~~~
dhimes
Totally OT- but I can't figure out why he was banned. A few 'Show HN' posts in
a row (for the same product) maybe? He was probably just trying it at
different times to get traction. Weird.

------
alkimie2
It strikes me as dangerous that developers seem to think that Apple (or
Google) have a role in resolving disputes with 3rd parties. It seems odd to me
that your attorney is focusing on Apple. I did a quick trademark search at the
USPTO and at WIPO and I see no applications or registrations--that's a basic
tool with which you can use to lever 3rd parties, including Apple.

~~~
maaaats
Well, wouldn't Apple or Google be responsible for serving illegal content,
especially after being notified?

~~~
seszett
Apple or Google, or the ones who contact them like Flipagram here, should not
be responsible for determining whether content is illegal or not.

As far as I know, only the judicial branch of sovereign states are supposed to
do that, even though these days it seems like everyone wants to circumvent
it... and then whine when they are the ones on the wrong side of such a para-
legal action because they don't deem it legitimate.

------
elleferrer
Since it sounds like they legally trademarked their app's name and brand then
it's best to get an attorney involved and not wait around for Apple.

Competition and copycats exist - users have an appetite for new stuff and
quality apps. Apps can be disposable - the average user has something like 64
apps on their device.

So the trick now is to make the app far better than the copycats and to get it
back up on the charts.

------
Grue3
Seems like Flipagram itself is ripping off Instagram logo and name.

------
biturd
Put a string in the app that controls the title, subtitle, or other highly
noticeable aspect of the app. Do a few bug fixes as well.

submit your app to Apple.

Wait a few weeks for enough users to download it, toggle the switch, and put
in some text string that is profane. Make sure your servers detect your app
from the Users Agent of the fake one.

Apple will pull the fake one, and block their account, in action to keeping an
eye on them.

------
ig1
File a DMCA complaint.

~~~
spyder
Also it can be considered phising attack if both app ask for some user data
and users enter their data in the fake app because they believe it's the real
app.

------
jaxtrx
They just recently acquired a trademark, now apple can do something...

Word Mark FLIPAGRAM Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S:
Computer application software for mobile phones, portable media players,
handheld computers, namely, software for transforming still photographs into
video slideshows for sharing on internet social networks. FIRST USE: 20120607.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20120615 Standard Characters Claimed Mark Drawing Code
(4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK Serial Number 86042264 Filing Date August 19, 2013
Current Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) Flipagram LLC
LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY CALIFORNIA 3853 Reklaw Drive Studio City CALIFORNIA
91604 Attorney of Record Craig O. Correll Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register
PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

~~~
jpttsn
Perhaps in this case that's enough because the infringement is so blatant.
Generally, I'd like to see any IP violations pass through the proper channels
for deciding who's legally in the right.

------
stevex
I have an app in the store that's been doing reasonably well. Another
developer released an app with the exact same name. (I'm not sure how, as the
App Store normally prevents that). I filed a complaint with Apple, and they
renamed their product, simply adding "Pro" to the name.

Search for any popular app name and you'll see the other apps trying to ride
off the same search terms. Apple seems to be fine with that.

Where Apple will get involved is if you send them a properly worded legal
request based on an actual trademark or intellectual property violation. They
will act if they are compelled to, but only then.

------
jpttsn
It seems ridiculous that Apple denounces responsibility, but if we think this
through, it's better to keep disputes like this is in courts. There are laws
and systems in place for handling this type of thing.

------
ackfoo
The real problem here is a technical one: Apple needs to be more vigorous
about refusing to register app names to other vendors that are too similar to
existing names. That would solve 80% of this.

I came up with an app name and registered it successfully. Before publishing
the app, I discovered that there was an app in the store with the exact name I
registered.

I contacted Apple for clarification of their policy and practice of excluding
the use of existing names. They directed me to contact their legal department,
but I had no reason to do so; the other app was first--my name had to change.
I only wanted to know how it was technically possible that they allowed the
registration.

I contacted the other developer and compared notes. He confirmed that we had
both been assigned the _exact_ same name despite Apple's documentation
indicating that this was impossible. We both wondered what would happen if I
published my app, but, of course, I registered a new name instead of risking
harm to either business.

That said, if your IP is so easily copied that you are very vulnerable to this
kind of thing, it may be an indication that you are picking the low-hanging
fruit and that you need to step up your game a bit. Ideas are a dime a dozen,
as are good names. If your algorithm and its implementation are very good, you
will be much harder to catch.

------
nedwin
Have you had a lawyer send the app developer a cease and desist? Have you
contacted a lawyer?

~~~
GoodIntentions
Their blog says the offender is someplace in "Eastern Europe". I think that
C&D would end up being a 300 dollar piece of toilet paper.

Like many other folks are saying, I think a DMCA filing citing infringement
against their art assets would be most effective.

------
drewying
The curious thing to me is it took me 3 months once to get one of my apps
through the app store because reviewer thought it was too similar to the app
"Draw Something".

My app was called "Draw Wireless". It was a super dinky app that let people
iPhones connect to each other via Bluetooth and draw on a shared whiteboard
space in real time. It had a dark blue grey icon with a wireless symbol on it.

Other than the fact the icon had a dark blue background, it looked and behaved
nothing like the app "Draw Something". But yet I had to redesign the icon
three times and rewrite the app description four times before the reviewer
felt I had distinguished enough from "Draw Something" and let it through. It
took 3 freaking months.

TLDR; if your app is prominent enough then Apple will only let will go to
extreme lengths to protect your app. I guess it's only if you are a small guy
like these guys you need to worry about fakers.

------
niix
While I do not claim to be some creative genius, I feel like you shouldn't
base your app off of another existing app. Without the creation of Instagram,
your app would not exist.

------
taude
well, according to recent news, you're going to have to remove "gram" from
your product name anyway.

[http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/19/instagram-cracks-down-on-
co...](http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/19/instagram-cracks-down-on-connected-
apps-using-insta-and-gram/)

------
HipstaJules
Apple are you doing this for real? This is so sad. Remove those fake apps!

------
benguild
I've been saying this for a while:
[http://benguild.com/post/14531541446/google-is-the-only-
thin...](http://benguild.com/post/14531541446/google-is-the-only-thing-saving-
the-software-business)

------
chris_wot
Wouldn't this be covered under the DMCA?

------
AsymetricCom
Apple has clearly demonstrated time and time again that the purpose of the
walled garden system is to protect their revenue stream. They will not go
through any lengths to protect your assets (that aren't automated), you might
as well release it on the open web, because you'll get the same amount of
support (none) and you'll have a bigger audience. In fact, you'll probably be
safer if you can manage to fit most of the code on the back-end and present it
as a web app. By releasing it to Apple, you're guaranteeing that it will be
pirated in entirety.

I'm not being hyperbolic at all, you just don't generally hear about this on
news agg sites. If your cloned App has been supported by spammy ad networks,
chances are it's making more money than yours, and Apple has every motivation
they need to protect their App before yours and to drag their feet as much as
possible.

