
Ask HN: Is it normal for founders of startups to not sleep? - thrwAwayQues
Hi HN, I left a job at a respectable corporation to join a YC startup that had raised capital to build out the team and execute their vision.  The lead founder of the company sends emails at all hours of the night, even 3 or 4AM and talks about how little sleep he is getting like it is a badge of honor.  I have worked at several other companies with extremely effective coworkers, and have never seen this type of behavior before.<p>I am concerned that he is too tired to make decisions effectively and may be making cognitive errors.  I have no evidence that this is taking place so far, except some small errors here and there, but where there is smoke there is fire right?  I’m usually a pretty direct guy, but I have ruled out talking to him about it because I do not think there is a way to make the conversation productive.<p>What I am asking is:<p>Is it normal for founders to send emails at random times all night to the team (most nights)?  If it is not normal, have others experience founders that did that and am I overreacting?  Are there any examples of people who are successful who exhibit this behavior and are those simply antidotes?  Is anyone aware of whether this is a good or bad sign?
======
automathematics
Ignoring the "bragging" part, yeah it's normal.

You are joining a startup. To you it's just a great opportunity at a job that
seemed interesting to you. To the founder, it's his life. At 2:30am you might
be leaving the bar thinking about whether to call an Uber or a Lyft. Your
founders are probably awake thinking about how they're going to get that new
feature out the door.

I started my own startup a little over 2 years ago. It's pretty normal every
night between 2 and 5am for one of the three founders to send a message to
another about something they're freaking out about.

He's not thinking "Oh it's 3am, I shouldn't email my employee this late". He's
thinking "There's something on my mind about my company and I need to get it
off my chest".

If you start your own company and get a few employees it makes a lot more
sense VERY quickly.

Don't worry, he/she's just very invested.

~~~
7Figures2Commas
Even if one is generous and assumes this kind of behavior is typically well-
intentioned, it's foolish to believe that it won't become a detriment as you
grow your business.

A lot of startup founders don't think much about management principles and the
importance of perception in an organization, but these things matter. When
founders are emailing around the clock, many employees will come away with the
perception that they're expected to be available at all hours of the day and
night too. Your employees are never going to be as invested as you, so this
typically creates stress and dissatisfaction for employees more than it
motivates and impresses them.

As this Ask HN post demonstrates, a workaholic warrior complex is also a great
way to convince your employees that you're an "i" word (insane, insensitive,
imbalanced, incompetent, etc.).

~~~
volaski
One of the biggest mistakes I made while working on a past startup was
listening to an advice like this. What you say is totally valid if your
company is a fortune 500 company, but the type of people who _start_ companies
shouldn't strive to become those types of managers covered in business case
studies. I made this mistake after reading too many business books.

It simply doesn't work. From my experience it fucks up the company culture
when a founder tries to "tone it down", because that's not the quality
required to make stuff happen when it's in the beginning stage.

A competent founder should be able to adapt as the company grows, but
shouldn't behave like a fortune 500 CEO from the beginning.

~~~
7Figures2Commas
Here's the biggest problem with your approach: in today's market, it's a lot
harder for startups to recruit and retain good employees than it is for good
employees to find new employers.

Just look at the OP: he left an ostensibly good job to join a YC startup and
he's already questioning the founder's behavior and competence. When he starts
feeling pressured to work insane hours, or completely loses faith in the
founder's sanity and competence, how long do you think it will take him to
find a new employer that promises something better?

At the risk of being overly harsh, if you feel you're incapable of making
"stuff happen" without sending random emails at 3 am in the morning or acting
like you don't have control over your schedule and business or terrorizing
your employees into believing that they need to be online at all hours, you're
probably out of your depth and should be honest with yourself about your
readiness to run a business with employees.

A lot of people in the startup community have deluded themselves into
believing that "hard work" is the one and only key to success but by and
large, successful businesses are built by doing the right things, not by
running around for 18 hours a day like a chicken with its head cut off. Thanks
to the funding boom, a lot of chickens with their heads cut off are running
companies. Folks like the OP work for them at their own peril.

~~~
nugget
Not all, but almost all of the successful founders I know are obsessively
focused on their startups and they don't put much time into other areas of
their lives (family, social life, etc).

Humans need sleep and whether they sleep 4 or 8 hours doesn't really matter.
The work is just always on their minds, 24/7\. They are always on call. They
are always reachable. They never say no. The passion, focus, and obsession for
the business oozes out of them, even when they are ''out of the office''.
There is not even a question of work-life balance because work is their life.

Personally I like to invest in and work with people like this because they
tend to succeed, make disruption happen at scale, and make lots of money upon
exits. A lot of recruits burn out and don't like it, but the ones who survive
learn a ton and make a lot of money too.

~~~
7Figures2Commas
You're missing a key point: it is possible for a founder to be obsessively
focused on a business without engaging in behavior that causes employees
severe agita.

Without starting a debate about the benefits or perils of work-life balance,
most startup employees should recognize the following facts:

1\. Startup founders are not created equal. In today's hot market, there are a
lot of inexperienced and incompetent people running startups. These people can
work as hard as they want and ooze passion from every pore in their bodies but
at the end of the day, they're incapable of building successful businesses.

2\. Statistically, most startups won't achieve an exit. At those that do, most
employees don't "make lots of money."

3\. Many startups offer far fewer learning experiences than employees would
like to believe because misdirected hustle and hard work are encouraged and
rewarded even though they are not correlated with competence and outcomes.

------
Gatsky
I think that people greatly overestimate the productivity gained by
sacrificing sleep. For intellectually taxing work I think it is probably
detrimental overall, particularly if chronically sleep derived. Lots of high
profile successful people say the don't sleep, but this may largely reflect
their exceptional drive and dedication, rather than any real benefits.

The second thing to consider is the use of stimulants like modafinil,
apparently quite common in the startup community.

~~~
karissa
don't take that shit.

~~~
toomuchtodo
I've used modafinil for personal 96 hour sprints, and while it works, I can't
even describe the nightmares I had during the 18 hours I'd then sleep.

Would not use again unless my life depended on it.

------
brobdingnagian
Not getting enough sleep is very unhealthy. Additionally, there is no evidence
that all of the micromanagement going on in the wee hours leads to business
success.

------
jmount
Not normal, not effective, probably leads to paranoia (so watch your back).

------
hawkice
When someone brags about how little sleep they get, I've found it difficult to
convince them that extreme sleep deprivation impacts performance. It's not too
dissimilar to a drunk friend trying to negotiate back their car keys --
introducing ludicrous levels of denial seem to be part of the mentally-
impaired package.

Perhaps a bigger warning sign is when / if a founder like that ends up using
and abusing amphetamines. I used to work at a startup where the VCs did a
clawback due to the founders erratic, amphetamine-induced behavior.

Either way, a simple observation: you will be most effective when you trust
the judgment of the person you work for. I highly recommend optimizing for how
effective you are when considering where you work.

------
wpietri
My personal experience (started 5 companies, 20+ years in tech, 15 of those in
SF) is that you are right to worry, but only modestly so unless things get
worse.

The best people I've worked with take care of themselves. The worst let the
pressure of the situation get to them and burn themselves out. I saw one
company totally destroyed by a CEO who sent out a poorly considered "let's
reorg the company" email at 2 am after the company Christmas party. Many times
I've seen whole teams working stupid hours and ending up making stupid
mistakes, or doing the startup equivalent of "controlled flight into
terrain"[1]. The worst gig I ever had was at a company where people celebrated
"heroic" efforts, because it created a strong incentive to let problems pile
up until they could only be resolved through heroic efforts. Macho bullshit is
certainly fun and entertaining for a while, but it's a terrible foundation for
a serious company.

I know a lot of people who are second- or third-time founders, and a common
conversational theme is that the biggest thing they're doing differently is
aiming for a sustainable pace. The common line is "it's not a sprint, it's a
marathon", but I think even that comparison falls short. A lot of people run
exactly one marathon because they train too hard and burn out. Median time-to-
exit is something like 6 years, so we aren't talking one race, we're talking
about marathon after marathon after marathon. It's not a sprint, it's a
running career.

Hopefully this guy can pull it together, so in your shoes I'd call this a
yellow flag. But I would work hard to make sure the behavior doesn't spread to
the engineering team. Tired programmers make dumb mistakes and then preserve
them forever in source control. They will lurk there and spring upon you at
the worst possible times, eating up far more time than was ever apparently
created by working late.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_flight_into_terrain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_flight_into_terrain)

------
prawn
I work late and send emails at whatever hour it happens to be. If I email a
client or employee at 3am, I don't expect them to reply then, but that they'll
get to it when they are the office in the morning. I am just trying to get
that item out of my queue right then so I can move onto the next thing.

Every recipient is in control of the notifications on their phone and can
switch them off overnight.

It sounds like you have a different issue with this individual, assuming
they're making sleep-deprived errors and reading too much into this? If they
were calling you at that hour repeatedly, then that would be a different story
but email is more akin to snail mail - the recipient opens it when they choose
to open it.

~~~
dennisgorelik
Exactly.

I'm surprised that many commentators here imply that email sent at 3am demands
immediate reply.

------
hkarthik
It's not "normal", but it's quite common among startup founders. I think this
says more about VC backed startup culture and the personality types that it
attracts, than anything inherently wrong with an individual.

The personal sacrifices and risks that founders take on likely changes their
personalities and behavior. Once they enter this feedback loop of sleep
deprivation, extreme work ethic, and dedication to their startup above all
else, it's quite difficult for them to get out of it. And the longer they stay
in it, the more likely that things will end badly for them.

The worst part is that these individuals are the least likely to listen to
reason and get help.

------
7Figures2Commas
> Is it normal for founders to send emails at random times all night to the
> team (most nights)?

In my opinion, this question is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is how
the founder's behavior makes _you_ feel.

You say that you have worked with people who are extremely effective but never
seen similar behavior. You say you are concerned that the founder is too tired
and may be exhibiting poor decision-making. And, perhaps most importantly, you
don't feel comfortable broaching the subject with him.

It appears your gut is telling you that something is off here. When it comes
to where you invest your time professionally, you can usually do far worse
than to follow your intuition.

------
jerf
Something I haven't seen anyone ask yet... are you expected to _answer_? It's
one thing for some bits to flip in a mail server at 3am... it's quite another
if your phone is buzzing and your job is (cumulatively) on the line if you're
not responding.

There's a non-zero chance that the person sending these emails will read this
message. There's a _very_ high chance that someone matching the description
will read this message, since there's definitely not enough info in the Ask HN
here to uniquely identify anyone :)

So, as not a startup founder and likely never will be one, I implore you
founders to remember that we are not founders, and you can't expect the rest
of us to act like founders without the possible upside. Further, I'd suggest
that you should _want_ your first few employees to sleep well, so that they
can provide a well-rested analysis of whatever crazy thoughts you had at 3am
when you've had 10 hours of sleep in the last four days. That's actually a
good thing, something you should seek out, cherish, and listen to.

------
alaskamiller
1\. Just cause he can send an email at 3AM doesn't mean he wants a response at
3AM

2\. Just cause he can stay up for a long time cause he's young and have no
other responsibilities doesn't make him any better than anyone else.

3\. Playing at tech startups is just playing a video game. Some people get
obsessive over it and some people do it casually and most everyone else is in
between those two extremes.

------
bluecalm
Them sending emails at random times might be just their sleeping/working
schedule as well as habit to send emails instantly when they see an issue when
working on something.

I have this habit and my sleeping schedule sometimes gets shaky. I am also a
founder of a small start-up so all this sounds like me (expect maybe badge of
honor thing as I see messed up sleeping schedule as a problem not a thing to
brag about). I think that as along is it's understood that those emails are
not urgent to respond (or even read) and are there as just "things to look at
once you have time" it's all good.

I think it's good to clarify their position on it and what their expectations
are for you reacting to those emails.

------
devanti
Don't worry about it.

He's trying to motivate his employees by showing his dedication. If he wants
to work in the middle of the night, let him do so. It's normal for startup
founders to work late or wake up in the middle of the night with random
thoughts.

I highly doubt you're expected to respond to it immediately anyway.

Also, it's not really your job to worry about his cognitive capabilities.
That's his responsibility, and some people can get away with less sleep than
others.

If you don't trust in his ability and the future of the startup, then you
should simply leave the company.

------
te_chris
I'd cut and run while you can. Sure, some people love this shit, but leave
that to them, there's likely other opportunities out there for you.

------
fsk
Is he expecting you to answer at 3am?

If he expects you to answer at 3am, it's time to find a new job.

If he's willing to wait to get an answer, then don't worry about it.

I turn of the sound and vibrate on my phone, so I don't get interrupted while
I'm sleeping.

He's probably just trying to show off about how dedicated he is. Don't get
tricked into overworking yourself to match him.

~~~
dennisgorelik
> trying to show off about how dedicated

No.

It's just asynchronous communication in the most speedy way: email as soon as
you come up with an idea/solution.

------
myhf
Staying up until 3 doesn't mean never sleeping. Plenty of people operate on a
delayed sleep phase because they are more comfortable doing certain types of
work at night. At some stages in a company's growth, hacking is more important
that taking 9am meetings. That's not true at all stages, but changing gears
takes time.

------
saluki
I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I find myself up at 4 am some mornings working, putting together emails,
especially if it's something exciting or on my mind. If he only requires 6
hours of sleep he might be turning in at 10pm and up at 4am.

Or sometimes I find myself up for an hour or two around 3 or 4 am and then go
back to bed after clearing my mind, finishing up some code, sending some
emails, making notes about an idea.

So I wouldn't worry too much about when he's up emailing thinking about his
business.

But you definitely are only productive 8-12 hours per day tops, maybe less.
But being excited about something can result in getting an early start or
being up an hour or two in the middle of the night.

If you notice he's exhausted, making lots of mistakes then think about asking
him if he's getting enough sleep or wants to take the afternoon off.

------
mmuelly
First you have to define normal, it certainly isn't normal by the standards of
the rest of society. Many of the successful startup founders are along the
bipolar spectrum, some without even realizing it, and most productive when in
a hypomanic state. This allows them to sleep very little and be especially
creative. Hypomania has produced some of the greatest creative works in human
history so this is not necessarily a bad thing. However, the danger arises
when hypomania becomes mania and the person becomes delusional and actions
start to not make sense anymore. The problem for an outsider is recognizing
when the line to irrational is crossed and getting the person help. Also,
every positive feedback loop, like little sleep, is eventually followed by
hysteresis and a crash.

------
jeffmould
While not "normal" by the true definition, it can be somewhat normal in the
startup world. Healthy is a different story and being productive is another
question. What you don't know on the flip side is his exact sleep habits which
you could be missing altogether. There are some people that nap and work in
spurts of time. I have horrible sleep habits sometimes and if I am stressed I
can have insomnia at times. But as an example, I used to get up at 3am work
until 5 or 6am, take an hour nap, go to the gym for an hour, and then off to
work. I would stop working around 5pm come home eat, relax, do housework,
whatever else and take a nap until about 10pm. Then get up work till midnight
and back to sleep. I found I was much more relaxed and had a ton more energy
sleeping in small cycles like that. I also found myself sleeping in cycles on
weekends even more. I would work 3-4 hours, nap an hour or two, work 3-4
hours, nap again, and over and over. What works sleep wise for one person may
not work for the next, so it is hard to answer your question precisely.

As a side story, the first startup I worked for back in the late 90s during
the first bubble the CEO was older and well respected among Internet
companies. He had just come off the CEO position at one of the biggest data
center companies of the time and was well connected. One day not long after I
started I had an idea for the company and randomly emailed him at like 10pm.
He responded around 3 or 4am. I was working night shift in the data center and
emailed him right back (part with a sense of surprise that he answered me and
part with a sense of surprise that it was that early in the morning). Long
story short, it ended up becoming an open line of communication between us
that if I had a question or needed something I would just email him at 3am and
usually have an answer within minutes.

As for the other part regarding the bragging, I would just take that in
strides. That's just part immaturity and part probably trying to make co-
workers feel guilty for only working 10 hours instead of 11 each day. I think
it also comes from the accelerator mentality of grind, grind, grind to have a
demo product in a short period of time.

Regardless I wouldn't worry about it too much unless you start seeing problems
such as him demanding employees do the same (i.e. expecting you to respond to
emails at 3am) or having short temper with employees. I wouldn't worry about
the little errors either. It is a startup there are going to be missteps along
the way. Most likely his sleep habits will change over time as the company
gets it feet well planted.

------
mrchess
To me it's normal. When I obsess over things I get very little sleep. But to
brag about it, to me, is immature. It reminds me of college kids who would
brag about waiting last minute to study and pulling all nighters for their
tests the day before and being proud of it. Well... if you were more
responsible with your time maybe you wouldn't have to cram like that?

To answer your question, yeah it's normal to send things at odd hours, but
immature to constantly talk about it as if you deserve some sort of special
treatment for it.

------
xynny
Nope it's not normal. This is the behavior of a socialpath/psychopath. I
highly recommend reading this:

[http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-
principle-o...](http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-
the-office-according-to-the-office/)

------
Retra
Some people can go on very little sleep. Bragging about it is immature, but it
isn't a sign that something is wrong by itself.

~~~
thrwAwayQues
Sometimes it comes up and he talks about getting no sleep like everyone should
be doing it. It is not aggressive, but maybe passive aggressive? I'm not even
really sure, but it definitely makes me uncomfortable. Maybe this is my real
concern with it?

~~~
karissa
Yes, this seems like the most important, and most detrimental part of this
behavior. I'd recommend getting a new job -- it'll only get worse as the
company gets older and more stress is added.

------
braindead_in
Not getting is never good a good sign. But the assumption that you can send
emails only while awake is wrong as well.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
I've sent emails half asleep.

Mistake. _Big_ mistake.

Anyway - there is rock-solid scientific evidence to suggest that sleep
deprivation damages cognitive abilities and decision making.

See e.g.

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2656292/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2656292/)

Depriving yourself of sleep is false heroism. You do not "get more done." All
you're doing is increasing internal friction, decreasing personal
effectiveness, and making yourself cranky and stupid.

------
jacquesm
Being unable to sleep is terrible especially when it happens over a longer
period of time. I've had this during years when ww.com was going through the
.com boom and subsequent bust and only since I finally sold it has this
changed and I sleep like a baby now. The stress has to go somewhere I guess.

------
foltz
Does anyone know of an email client or plugin that acts like Buffer? Something
that would allow you to add these midnight missives to a queue for dispatch at
a sane hour? You should be able to skip the queue for emergencies but those
should really be handled with phone calls or texts.

~~~
vnchr
Email scheduling with Boomerang (gmail plugin) or something similar

------
dudul
Not normal. Not healthy. Not effective.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was this guy's first venture.

------
xivzgrev
Show me a founder who sends emails regularly at 3am, and I'll show you someone
who is scared and as result focused exclusively on short term. If your
competitive advantage is working 20 hour days, you don't have much of an
advantage.

------
volaski
I just want to say here, if you are a founder (or THE founder mentioned here)
who works hard to the point where other people thinks you're crazy, you are
NOT crazy and you are NOT wrong. I am not saying you should completely get rid
of rest from your life (because otherwise you will burn out), but working hard
on something you believe in and being abnormally passionate about it is
nothing to be ashamed of.

To OP: It's not a question of whether it is normal or not. Every startup is
different. Sure, there are some mildly successful companies with founders who
have "work-life balance", but the ones that are unusually successful normally
have founders who are unusually obsessive.

~~~
saryant
The richest man in history, John D. Rockefeller, kept to a strict schedule
including 7.5 hours of sleep a night and ample personal time in the morning
and evening.

Somehow he still managed to accrue $660 billion (inflation-adjusted).

------
aburan28
If your sleeping well your startup is doing something wrong. This behaviour is
to be expected when competing as a startup

------
ne01
to accomplish more, you need to work smarter not just harder. I suggest one of
my favorite books: "Rework" to your friend.

------
curiously
Just because you are now working on an idea that bunch of people with the sole
intention of maximizing their returns on their investment shouldn't change the
way you function as a normal human being although I'm more worried about this
excerpt:

> "The lead founder of the company sends emails at all hours of the night,
> even 3 or 4AM and talks about how little sleep he is getting like it is a
> badge of honor."

and seeing how it connected to your original posting:

    
    
        "Hi HN, I left a job at a respectable corporation to 
        join a YC startup "
    

I don't get it. YC doesn't guarantee success. From what I read, YC gets the
pick of the litter, the rejects either raise money from others or bootstrap or
just go back to the workforce. The same thing happens even if you are in YC...

You made a decision to leave a stable job to join a YC startup. You realize
the founder is not letting you sleep or has some weird ego about being poorly
productive (no sleep means you aren't performing 100%), and now you are
questioning if you made the right choice, and it seems like you have every
right to question your decision based on the environment you are currently in.

A normal and healthy working environment (YC or being a startup is no excuse)
doesn't have people sending emails at 4AM and expecting people to read their
bragging rights on how shitty their work output will be throughout tomorrow
because they didn't sleep. IF I WAS AN INVESTOR AND THIS IS HOW PEOPLE WERE
BURNING MY MONEY I WOULD BE FUCKING LIVID AND IMMEDIATELY FIRE WHOEVER IS
RUNNING YOUR COMPANY.

------
MyNameIsMK
I have been operating at 3-4 hours sleep for over 2 years. Its not normal,
it's obsessive and ridiculous. With that said, you know the person is self-
motivated, and disciplined to get the shit done.

Surround yourself with these guys. You'll get far.

