
I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams - jseliger
https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/12/college-dreams-say-no-avoid-student-debt.html
======
hajile
And here we have once again why the government shouldn't be subsidizing
student loans and shouldn't exclude them from bankruptcy. We need to quit
incentivizing sub-prime loans. Unlike the housing crash where the houses
retained most of their value and could be sold later, you can't sell your
degree to pay back the money.

If you're getting a necessary degree, it's very uncommon to default on your
loan because you'll be in demand and getting a decent wage. Banks understand
this fact and will do the math to give a loan anyway.

Some of my kids seem like they enjoy academics, but others do not. I'll be
pushing the latter toward trade school. Average IBEW (electrical union) pay is
about $20/hr for an apprentice and $33 for a journeyman. $40,000 to $66,000
with ZERO DEBT right out the gate is nothing to ignore (and that pay can
easily double -- especially in your younger years -- if you're willing to
travel and put in those extra hours). It sure beats minimum wage at a crappy
service job.

~~~
honkycat
I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as
"pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can
actually expect to make.

Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without.

You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The
work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability.

I wasn't very academic growing up. But then I grew up, and now I am a pretty
successful computer programmer making a lot more than that, for way better
perks and less dangerous, damaging work.

You can make that kind of money as a manager at Walmart and you do not run the
risk of getting your arm fried off or falling off a telephone pole.

And where does a few years as an electrician leave you if you don't end up
liking the career? "Sorry son, the internet told me trades were a good idea.
Maybe go back to school now that you are an adult with a family?" Part of the
reason you go to school as a young person is that you do not have a family to
feed or a house to pay off.

~~~
seattle_spring
> Part of the reason you go to school as a young person is that you do not
> have a family to feed or a house to pay off.

If you go to art school as a young person, you won't have the problem of
paying off a house because you won't have a job that qualifies you for a
mortgage.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
My wife went to art school and is (somewhat embarrassing to me) supporting our
family with her job at Amazon while I (a CS PhD) am looking for work. We even
qualify for a mortgage with her income.

(Lesson: UX designers are as important as programmers)

~~~
seibelj
That’s surprising to me. Why is it so hard to find a job with your CS PhD? Are
you trying to get a specific research-oriented job?

~~~
seanmcdirmid
There aren’t a lot of PL positions open right now, and I didn’t network as
much as I should before. Along with the standard problems in applying for jobs
(high stakes leetcode, ghosting after multiple successful rounds of
interviewing, etc...), that I can’t just apply to a lot of positions means
that it takes a bit longer than I would like.

I also have the luxury of waiting for a better opportunity rather than just
taking the first one that matches.

------
frankbreetz
I think at least part of the solution is to involve your children in your
finances. I think if they are able to understand your families monthly/yearly
budget, they will be much less likely to take on a ton of debt, as they will
more likely understand the consequences of their decisions.

The financial literacy in this country(USA) is absolutely terrible and I think
this is one of the most important things a parent can teach there children,
because they will not learn this in school. Part of the problem is that most
parents themselves are not financially literate and do not have savings or
budgets. Life is so much easier if you have a good understanding of money.
People like to say "Money doesn't matter", security matters and freedom
matters, good luck getting either of those things without money.

At this point it is very obvious the government or universities are not
looking out for us in this regard, so this will be one thing my children
understand.

~~~
jays
Agreed. Showing a teenager how much they will make with the career their
interested in and then figuring out how much they might afford in student
loans is pretty easy to roughly estimate. It’s what should be taught in
schools and banks should have limits as well.

But banks and universities don’t wait those things, because it’d jeopardize
the easy money.

------
jawns
Perhaps one way to help college-bound teenagers make these sorts of decisions
is not by asking, "What careers most interest you?" but "What lifestyle do you
want to live as an adult?" and then work backward from there.

Teens who envision themselves living in a two-bedroom Manhattan apartment and
dining out frequently could then be counseled to pursue jobs that earn enough
to support that lifestyle.

And teens who would be OK living in a modest ranch home in a small midwestern
town, driving a 10-year-old car, and making most of their meals at home could
be counseled to pursue jobs that earn enough to support that lifestyle.

In other words, instead of saying, "Identify the jobs you would be interested
in doing, then choose the one with the best earnings potential or work/life
balance," parents should be saying, "Identify the lifestyle you would like to
lead, then choose the job that is capable of supporting that lifestyle."

~~~
asdff
Interesting angle to think about. A lot of high schoolers are applying to
majors basically blind of what the job at the other end is like. Everyone
wants to be a doctor or a lawyer until the slow realization of the realities
of these career paths hit, and in a panic they change to business or econ,
wrangle excel macros in a cubicle until 65, and wonder where it all went
wrong.

~~~
JamesBarney
Which is different from the lawyers who know exactly where it went wrong.

------
vsskanth
Serious question: how does a parent deal with their high school kids wanting
to pursue college in a field with a low probability of high lifetime earnings
(art, theatre etc.) ?

Especially when they are middle class without generational wealth to insulate
themselves

~~~
vidanay
Drop the "follow your dreams" rhetoric and have a serious discussion with them
about the costs of life and lifestyles.

If they want to live in a 6000 sq ft house in Malibu, then they shouldn't get
a degree in 5th Century Aerobics.

~~~
glangdale
Oh, come on. Visigothercize is the hottest thing right now: "burn! and loot!
and turn! and burn!".

Seriously, this is good advice. A lot of young-uns have amazingly naive ideas
about both how much money they will make but also how much money they get to
keep. Like they will hear about making $70K and imagine that somehow that
means that they could pay off, say, a $350K debt "in the order of 5 years"
(obviously not thinking exactly 5). As opposed to the reality which is that
they will be challenged to even service the _interest_ on a $350K debt at that
income level after their other expenses.

~~~
jpmattia
> _Visigothercize is the hottest thing right now: "burn! and loot! and turn!
> and burn!"._

I live in Santa Monica (just a little south of Malibu) and given the number of
exercise/barre/yoga/soul cycle/equinox/pilates/crossfit places near me, I have
to say: Visigothercize sounds like pure genius and I have no doubt it would
IPO within a year or two.

~~~
Terr_
"With ancient and time-tested techniques, we help you get in touch with your
inner aggression and fear, channeling them into transformational life
experiences."

------
NPMaxwell
I did the same with my boys -- now both software engineers (duh). When raising
children, are you going to omit how Physics affects your life? No, you'll tell
about hot stoves and heavy objects on the other side of levers. You tell them
about chemistry and biology: frying pan fires, food going bad, drink fluids
when you're sick. We tell them about history and sociology: this group of
people came to this country when they were being murdered in their own
country; that group came because they were granted land by a government. We
omit money and how it works. Many also omit romantic sex, even if their kids
take sex ed. And, of course, we omit anything that we don't want to face
ourselves, but that's probably another topic.

~~~
thatfrenchguy
> that group came because they were granted land by a government. We omit
> money and how it works

You also omit the part where the people already living there got genocided I
guess.

~~~
NPMaxwell
Yes. I would categorize genocide by relatives as something that most people
would not want to face -- it's "probably another topic" It's a mistake to omit
that too.

~~~
thatfrenchguy
Fair :-)

------
pnathan
> While other parents cheerfully promise that “if you get in, we’ll figure out
> the money part,”

That is literally the worst mindset to go in to this about.

I profoundly want to see college be free for all, and debt zeroed out. Failing
that rather utopian vision, the smart bet is to get a degree that you can pay
off in under 10 years without a miracle.

I plan to save up enough to help my kid out, which might well involve "we'll
send you internationally: those colleges are just as good, you'll get more
independent, and you will be about debt free when you get out".

~~~
slowhand09
There is no free. Free means Janet's dad who didn't go to college get to pay
additional so Bill's son goes for free. When resources are free, they become
either worthless or completely over-utilized. If you make college free, that
means colleges will still charge for classes, still charge for books, still
charge for dorm rooms, etc. They'll send their bills to the government, to pay
with increased tax dollars. They'll increase their rates to the gov't also.
Professors and administrators aren't working for free. Groundskeepers either.
TA's won't either because now they don't have tuition. Professors workloads
just increased because normally they have TA's to teach and grade for them. So
more professors are hired. Notice anything interesting? College costs which
keep increasing as long as easy student loans are available, (and are
responsible for the higher costs) just went up more. Now taxes are increasing
and additional gov't administration for programs are implemented. Looks like a
major redistribution of wealth, from taxpayers to educational institutions.
:-/ This is my surprised face.

~~~
snowwrestler
You should realize that primary and secondary school are already provided
"free" to anyone, and the reasons that works are just as valid for college.

There's nothing magically impossible about using taxpayer money to provide 16
years of education instead of 12.

~~~
vorpalhex
It benefits us as a country to have an electorate who can read and write and
have a basic understanding of civics and history. It doesn't necessarily
appear to benefit us the same way to have a bunch of folks spend 4 years
getting English degrees to make mom and dad happy.

There are a lot of benefits to college, but a lot of those benefits go away
when college stops becoming a choice and starts becoming mandated state
education.

~~~
snowwrestler
How about if a bunch of folks spend 4 years getting English degrees because
sophisticated communication is a critical skill when your entire economy is
based on information?

It's really striking to me how the arguments against college for all today
mirror the arguments against secondary school for all 120 years ago.

Hopefully the parallel continues and our great grandkids can take their
advanced education for granted the way we take secondary school for granted
today.

~~~
vorpalhex
We don't live in a world where "sophisticated communication" alone gets you
hired unfortunately. Primary/secondary education is meant to build reasonably
well rounded individuals who meet the basic skills to function well in
society. Paying significant amounts of money to do that for an additional four
years with no return on investment, whether it's the individual or the
taxpayers at large, is silly.

------
baron816
There’s some weird things about this article.

1) Their daughter likely would’ve qualified for quite a bit of financial aid,
which potentially could have brought a fancy art college to within reason for
her. That she never even applied to her dream schools means she will never
know if they would’ve been competitively priced.

2) Collectively, student debt is $1.6T, but that doesn’t tell you much about
the per graduate burden. Here’s some data:
[https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-
statistics/](https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/).
Average debt load is $30K or $7.5K per year of study (just living on that
amount of money seems like a good deal). That’s is quite a bit of money, but
not insurmountable. Median payment is $222/month. Also pretty feasible for
most graduates, especially when inflation and wage gains are factored in.

~~~
baking
My biggest issue with it was that you are in the "too well-off to get aid but
not well-off enough to pay cash" gap, then you should be expanding the number
of schools you are applying too, not reducing. In-state and out-of-state
public schools, and a wide mix of small to large private schools in both the
"reach" and "safety" categories to see what kind of financial offers you get.
With the caveat that if it turns out you hate the school that offered you
money and end up transferring out, you lose all those other offers and you
will be pretty much limited to public schools.

~~~
asdff
If cash is king you need to start busting your ass freshman year of high
school. Four years of pushing it and you can net an easy scholarship that will
take out a chunk of the cost, or even get a full ride and be able to go
anywhere you'd like.

~~~
baking
"full ride" <> "able to go anywhere you'd like"

Unless the one school that offers you a "full ride" is the one that you wanted
to go to.

------
ptmcc
One of the best things my parents ever did for me (and themselves) was tell
me, despite getting accepted, that I was not going to a fancy 40k+/yr school
for undergrad.

I was angsty about it at the time, but I got over it pretty quick and now
looking back appreciate how much stress and debt they saved me from.

I went to a magnet high school so there was a lot of pressure to go to a
"prestigious" school, and "settling" for a public university was uncool. But
of course ultimately something like 10% of my graduating class went to the
local public university. I had a phenomenal time there.

I keep in touch with many folks from high school, and while some of them that
went on to expensive private schools have been very successful (usually rather
wealthy already), I'd say that on balance the kids who went to affordable-but-
respected programs are doing better 10-15 years after graduation than the kids
who went to expensive elite schools on debt.

The debt burden of those expensive schools can be truly devastating,
financially and emotionally. I am seeing the long-term effects of it on my
peers still after 15 years. And the costs have gotten even higher now. As a
parent, one should think very very carefully about whether it is truly worth
it.

~~~
whateveracct
Same here. Got into MIT for engineering and went to a (still good) in-state
school for engineering. My parents made it clear that they had saved enough to
pay for the in-state tuition (+ an academic scholarship) but that I'd have to
go into debt for MIT.

Some of my peers were kind of shitty about it. "So-and-so doesn't like to try
so I get their decision." There was definitely a cult of Ivy League there.

I'm very happy with the decision. The in-state school was plenty challenging
and I learned a bunch. Work in software now and got a job at a FAANG out of
school (thanks to a referral from a college friend), so outcome-wise I can't
imagine that sticker price being worth it. Not to mention that culturally I
now know that MIT isn't exactly my vibe lol so I probably would've been
unhappy.

------
throwaway713
My sister and I basically copied what our parents did. I got a degree in
engineering like my dad (but pivoted to data science), and my sister got a
degree in elementary education like my mom. She works much harder than me but
earns significantly less and frequently comments about how massive of a
mistake it was to go into teaching.

I'm not really sure what the lesson is here other than that the world isn't
fair. From my perspective, my sister is generating much more value for the
world than I am, and yet all of her efforts result in very little reward.

I'm mixed on what to tell my future children. I want them to do what they love
(or what they feel is important), but that may result in a very difficult
future financially. I suppose I'll just try to make the trade-offs in career
choices as clear as possible and hope they make decisions they won't regret
later.

~~~
vorpalhex
People are not compensated to their value, they are compensated to their
rarity. A lot of people can (in theory) teach elementary aged kids, a lot
fewer folks can architect skyscrapers or perform brain surgery.

------
toolslive
What I don't understand is: why don't they go to a university in Europe? I
just checked for my alma mater: tuition fee is ~500 euro for 1 year. You pay
about 4k in rent per year (this is probably too high an estimate). The level
of education is high, and the programs are available in English.

~~~
crmrc114
This is why many doctors in the US get their basic medical schooling outside
of the US. (Often in the Caribbean
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_Caribbean)
)

~~~
seattle_spring
Caribbean schools are even more expensive than US med schools. A contact of
mine is graduating from Ross University with $550k of debt.

Students go there because their bar for incoming students is lower, and not at
all because they're cheaper.

~~~
russdill
It's the same with veterinarians as well.

------
sebastianconcpt
I loved this part:

 _To give my daughter a hard no on something she really, really wants—and that
I in theory want for her!—makes me feel like a monster. While other parents
cheerfully promise that “if you get in, we’ll figure out the money part,” I’m
over here sounding a Greek chorus of caution and lament. Sometimes I long to
just say yes. Saying yes feels good. Yes makes people happy.

On the other hand, saying no is part of my job as a parent. Hasn’t it been my
role all along to steer my kid toward smarter but seemingly less desirable
choices? Carrots instead of Kit Kats, an early bedtime instead of an all-night
YouTube binge? Children naturally hate those kinds of limits. They may
temporarily hate us. But they’re too young and myopic to see how this one
decision could make their lives harder for a long, long time. We can._

------
throwaway72873
You saved your daughter from a life of debt slavery. Now she can have a life,
children and maybe even become a painter.

------
sct202
I think it can be a disservice to apply to so few schools on the presumption
that you won't get aid or scholarships. I applied to only 3 schools and still
slightly regret not applying to more, since I thought 2 of schools were going
to toss my application into the trash but didn't.

Lots of schools offer a lot of scholarships that the parents and the kids may
not be aware of. I was very surprised by my offers, and I'm sure there are a
lot of other kids out there who made 'pragmatic' choices like me who undershot
because they thought they were being realistic.

I still ended up going to my safety school that I was always planning on going
and it was wonderful and cheap. But I still wonder what could have happened if
I had tried a little bit harder or looked around a little bit more seriously.

EDIT: In case no one read it, the teenager only applied to 2 schools after a
lot of pressure from the parent to be pragmatic.

~~~
ceejayoz
Some of the more expensive colleges rely on the psychological impact of "oh
wow, they're offering a five figure discount!" to overcome resistance. I went
to a school that's was $36k/year (now $60k); they had a $10k "merit"
scholarship for a SAT/ACT score threshold that _anyone_ eligible to attend
would've qualified for.

I wound up transferring to the local community college (for a tenth of the
cost) for a year, and had quite a few of the same professors who'd adjunct
there for a bit of side income.

------
rayiner
These parents are heroes.

> A couple months ago, my 17-year-old daughter’s guidance counselor called her
> into his office to ask pretty much the only question that adults ask high
> school seniors: “What colleges are you applying to?” When Ella tossed off a
> handful of universities, he said, “Have you thought about going to art
> school?”

This is goddamn malpractice.

> Like most parents, who save on average $18,000 for their kids’ education,
> we’d failed to sock away anything close to the $75,000 annual sticker price
> it would take for Ella to go to, say, Pratt in New York City.

A friend of ours matriculated at a similar school, but dropped out and went
into physical therapy instead. She and her husband managed to buy a house in
their late 20s, have kids, etc.[1]

Your job as a parent is to socialize your children. And that means telling
them how the world works. The society that they see around them exists because
people with valuable skills work hard to produce things. That doesn’t just
mean doctors or engineers—the world needs accountants and roofers and HVAC
technicians. The common thread is that these are skills that people and
companies need every day to make the world around us keep humming. People are
compensated based on the value and rarity of their skills. And money is
necessary for security and supporting yourself. Kids need to learn these
lessons from the earliest age. You abdicate that duty if you don’t teach them
that, and instead allow a bunch of government workers fill your kids’ heads
with nonsense.

College, for most people, is a joke. Take a bunch of classes that don’t teach
you anything useful, and then get a job that doesn’t require you to use
anything you learned. It’s an elaborate shell game we have to play because
we’ve bought into the nonsense peddled by teachers and guidance counselors. As
parents, it’s your job to be smart and help your kids navigate this game.
(We’re going through this with my wife’s younger brother right now.) Manage
your courses to keep up your GPA, take prerequisites at community college for
a fraction of the price, etc. The Kafkaesque administration of most colleges
makes this hard enough. But teachers and administrators will fight you the
whole way. They’ll talk about making sure kids get the “college experience”
and telling kids to “pursue their bliss.” Its your job as a parent to do
everything you can to fight back.

[1] I don’t want to come across to much like judging people’s lifestyle. I
know some people who are happy with the bohemian art world lifestyle. That
makes them happy. But when you see people complain about student debt and the
plight of millennials, that’s what keeps coming up: they can’t afford to buy a
house or have kids.

[2] That doesn’t mean I think doctors or aerospace engineers don’t need to go
to college. But in 1960, less than 40% of the population graduated from high
school and less than 10% had a bachelors degree. It’s incredible what a
sophisticated economy we had with so little formal education.

~~~
abnry
There is a place for encouraging students to go to art school... the catch is
that they need to have obvious signs of world class talent.

~~~
themagician
You can be completely average talent wise, get a job at an ad agency and 5-7
years later be a creative director making bank.

Art school can actually be a great investment if you want to do creative work
for hire.

~~~
Zyst
This is a weird ponzi-scheme like comment.

If you are a creative director, you have people working under you.

How do you all get to be creative directors?

~~~
aspaceman
Because not many people go to art school and pursue that route.

You'd be surprised how many high-level creative positions are available,
especially in games. It's kinda political to get a position of course. But
being an artist is pretty sustainable if you're willing to put out work for a
studio of that sort.

------
will4274
> One friend recently told me that her son has his heart set on a pricey out-
> of-state engineering program, despite the fact that a fantastic engineering
> program exists at the public university in our town. “It’s a reach school,
> but if he gets in he’ll probably go there—and I guess deal with a lot of
> student loan debt afterward,” she said with a laugh.

I don't understand this from the article. I went to a pricey out-of-state
engineering school, took out significant loans, got a good engineering job,
and paid them off in less than 5 years. Taking out loans to obtain a fancy
degree in a low paying profession isn't the same as taking out loans to obtain
fancy degrees in a high paying profession, but the article gives them similar
treatment.

------
GreeniFi
I sometimes wonder if the main difference between the US and EU economies is
that in the EU, the state(s) have largely identified demand inelastic goods
and services and regulated their supply: health, tertiary education, housing
(more or less). Where these are not regulated, two things happen: prices shoot
up and finance providers move in to finance access, creating debt traps. I’m
trying not to think about Brexit too much, but one of my indicators for, “this
was a bad/good idea” is the extent to which the health, education, housing
sectors are further deregulated.

------
helen___keller
The author briefly transitions from arts schools to engineering schools which-
in my opinion- are a totally different beast. If you graduate with 30k-50k in
debt and a six figure salary then it's not too bad

~~~
akhilcacharya
But..you can get a six figure salary with an in-state public school too.

~~~
helen___keller
Agreed but the host of smaller concerns that dominate high school college
choice advice (eg pick a place you feel you fit in, yadda yadda) make a lot
more sense if your debt is a tiny fraction of your future income.

FWIW I went to CMU (non-CS) for some squishy reason, like it "felt right". I
realized I needed a better degree for taking on 30k debt partway through
freshman year and transferred to CS.

The education was rock solid. If anything it was too good - I spent so much
time learning and working that I did very little else.

Debt has not really been a concern post graduation, compared to cost of buying
a house where I want to live it's barely worth mentioning.

~~~
akhilcacharya
> I spent so much time learning and working that I did very little else

Funny, I did the same thing (+ applying for internships/jobs/research) and had
zero debt and 4 internships under my belt. And yet...I only got into 2 state
schools (my safeties) and went to the easier one. I guess I'm not as good
because I couldn't get into a CMU-tier school?

~~~
helen___keller
> I guess I'm not as good because I couldn't get into a CMU-tier school?

That's not my suggestion, any I'm sorry if you took my post that way.

~~~
akhilcacharya
I'm not sure what your suggestion is then?

I don't see why people would choose to go to the effort if they didn't see
that way.

------
s17n
"Culturally upper-class person with middle-bracket income treats college
exactly the same way as everybody else in their income bracket, writes article
about how different they are"

------
gbronner
Private colleges increasingly practice perfect price discrimination making it
an incredibly high income tax on the middle class.

A small few give breaks for academically better students, or don't attempt to
fully maximize their price (e.g. Harvard could easily charge $100k/year), but
for the great majority, the price you pay is basically "as much as you can".

Because of subsidized student loans and jobs that require "credentialization",
there's guaranteed supply and guaranteed demand for these rather expensive
slots, and no incentive to deliver quality education at a lower price.

Until there's either a dramatic decline in wealthy college students, a drop in
government loan support, a decline in the proportion of jobs that absolutely
require a BA, or some sort of innovation in virtual college, I don't see this
changing.

Telling a kid that you aren't willing to

------
justinph
This article needlessly and incorrectly shits on art school. There are many,
many good careers that come out of going to art school, or better yet getting
a design degree at an art school. So, maybe have a talk with your kid about
_applied_ arts, not just blindly writing off a BFA.

No college teaches creative problem solving and critical thinking better than
art school. Not every art school costs $75k, either (which is a price almost
no one pays anyway thanks to financial aid).

I went to art school. I work in software engineering now and make good money.
Art school made me fearless and pragmatic in a way I wouldn’t have gotten with
a state engineering program. It was worth every cent.

------
CloverMuzak
As someone who made this choice (not going away to an expensive school), I
still regret it. I went to a local school and lived at home, almost everyone I
knew moved away. I never developed the same social circle as my friends who
went away did. There were so many experiences I missed out on and
opportunities that were closed to me because I wasn’t where the action was. I
don’t have any memorable college stories to tell or any connections with reach
outside of the local community. It stifled my growth professionally and
socially, and I would not recommend it.

------
wy35
Sometimes fancy art school is worth it, though. My sister decided to go to
CalArts and stomach the high tuition costs. She dropped out two years later
after receiving a job offer from Sony Pictures, and Netflix ended up
headhunting her a few months later. Now she's debt-free and making a
comfortable living, all from the connections and internships she got from
CalArts. Sometimes, a name brand school is worth it compared to a cheap school
"with a great art program".

------
ohyes
I feel that this is a disingenuous approach to the situation that the parents
have put their children in.

They put a very positive spin on having spent the money that should have gone
to their child’s college tuition.

Braces are a cliche, and cost an absolute max of 10k, a drop in the bucket
compared to 300k worth of tuition. These people did not budget for children at
all and probably (like everyone else) spent the money on stuff they don’t
actually need.

You encourage your child to do well in school and excel at something, but
suddenly when the bill comes due it is their responsibility to pay for
whatever you’ve encouraged them in, for the rest of their adult lives.

I’m trying to say there’s a big financial literacy issue coming from the
parents, not the children (although maybe also the children), and the culture
around it is to blame everyone but the parents and saddle the child with
indentured servant levels of debt... to pay for stuff the parents wanted at
the time. (The 529 is basically free money! How did you not use it?)

These parents _do_ make enough money for them to have saved for this, they
just didn’t.

If they didn’t make enough, financial aid probably would have been there. (You
can apply somewhere, get in and see what type of financial aid package they
give you, then reject because the cost is too high). Schools with better
endowments tend to have better aid packages.

To me, this is someone justifying 20 years of their own bad financial
decisions.

Everyone is obsessed with the cost of college being “worth it” or send their
kids into the life of backbreaking work trade school entails.

------
hereme888
For many degrees, there could simply be some sort of national board exam (or a
series of them), administered by a testing center (like Prometric). Students
can study on their own then pay to present the exams. Since the best lectures
and material can be obtained cheaply or for free (Khan, Coursera, etc),
"college" debt would be massively reduced. I don't speak for degrees that
truly require lab work, like STEM.

------
sethammons
Some eye openers there for me. They saved 40k for their kid and on average
parents save 18k for their kids?! We saved exactly $0.00 for my oldest. My
middle kid is a freshman. $0.00. And my youngest is 9, also $0.00.

The number one thing you must save for is your own retirement. I just this
last year started funding that adequately due to life circumstances. We are
just recently able to help out with education costs and do plan to open 529
plans this year.

The (very massive) downside to not having saved for the kid's education is
that for us to help now, we are spending like nearly $30k a year to cover our
oldest's classes. She is working part time and saving, and we are asking her
to pay us back 50%. The other option is loans. We would have to cosign for
them anyway, so no reason to use her poor credit. But having recently paid off
all our debts sans a small mortgage, I'm not excited to take out any more
debts.

I had told all my kids since they were young that they were going to pay for
their own college. It is hard to follow through with that when the loans they
could get are terrible and I still have to cosign for them. Glad I finally
have the income to help.

~~~
2sk21
Your approach is right - you need to save for your own retirement as the
highest priority.

------
moosey
I personally think that as the are cohort that finished school with the dot
com crash then followed up crushed under the weight of the housing crash,
start to send kids to college, there will be a general reckoning.

While my wife and I are doing well financially and professionally at the
moment, these events have made us distrustful of the current economic model of
low taxes and high wealth, which I am practically certain leads to these hours
of economic malaise. We had our first at a relatively young age, and the
realities of our wealth and savings are not as good as the author of this
piece... We only have one salary, which is a particularly huge benefit.

Regardless, one can only hope we decide that a well educated populace is such
an improvement to general welfare that we don't continually stuck the costs of
raising children on the parents alone. I know that there are tax benefits, but
those are a joke.

------
DocG
Uh, school is more than education, specially in art, and more about
connections.

For 40k I would consider three years abroad. I think this would cover cost in
a good university in Europe. This would give invaluable experience living
abroad, give top class education and probably be within budget.

------
song
What I never understand about articles like this written from the perspective
of Americans is that they don't seem to consider that there are other
countries than the US? Why limit yourself to the US when education is much
cheaper in other countries. And, it's not like a Art degree from a European
country is going to be worse than from a US school, it'll probably open more
doors not to mention that learning the language will be useful...

People all over the world think internationally when selecting universities
yet people in the US somehow limit themselves only to their own country.

~~~
albertshin
Schools are a place for education but also a signalling tool for recruiting.

I imagine it's difficult to get recruited back in your home country with a
degree from a foreign institution unless it's a pretty named school. The
simple and harsh reality being that they may have no idea or the bandwidth to
figure out how to interpret the grades you received or the education you had.
(Of course, CS or hard sciences are likely an exception to this with
portfolios or research results being pretty universal...)

And then there's the issue of visa issues should you attempt to work abroad
post graduation in that country.

~~~
song
I would tend to say that an experience abroad in fields like Arts is also
extremely valuable and there are internationally recognized schools abroad.
For example, the beaux arts in France or The Berlin University of the Arts.

So, while I agree with you that schools are a signaling tool for recruiting,
this is not necessarily the case for non top schools in the US and given that
a art education is extremely cheap in Europe, the money saved can also open
doors later.

Visa issues are not that much of a problem as one might think as long as the
student gets a master degree (most countries give a one year visa immediately
after the obtention of a master that can then easily be renewed if the visa
holder is employed). In general, master degrees make getting visa much easier.
I'd also argue that returning to the US after a couple years of employments
will give the graduate more opportunities because at that point they will have
an edge by having had an international experience.

------
oarabbus_
I know HN is really sensitive about this, but this sounds like a very
culturally white thing. Many other cultures have a mentality of "get an
employable major, period" and we are now seeing how superior that mentality
really is, considering the impending generational student debt crisis.

If you have rich parents who can support you for life and set you up with an
inheritance, knock yourself out with the Art major (like the daughter in the
article). If you don't, then pursue your passions and expect a difficult
life... or just choose a more employable major or career path.

------
RickJWagner
My oldest child is currently a senior in college. The school is full of kids
who think nothing of racking up student debt, and all of them seem to have
nice phones, cars and clothes.

It's madness. They'll be paying for that 4-year vacation for the rest of their
lives.

And I will be mad as a wet hen if some politician forgives student debts. It's
not right that everybody else has to pay for this frivolity. (It's also not
right for those kids who don't go on to college-- they miss the free vacation
and they are disadvantaged in the workplace.)

------
al2o3cr
Can't wait for the followup article written by Ella in 15 years: "Today I told
my parents they were going to have to get used to living in a cardboard box
because they didn't save for retirement. They asked me to help pay for a nice
assisted-living facility, but I explained to them how important it was not to
make financial decisions that could complicate your life for a long time based
on emotions."

------
irrational
What we've done with our kids is tell them from an early age that we will help
them with the first year of college and after that they are on their own. So
far we have 2 in college and that has been how it worked out. They knew up
front that we would not help them after the first year, and neither has come
to us asking for help because we were upfront with them long before they
started going to college. Bottom line, set expectations early.

------
StanislavPetrov
>So we finance it, or our kids do, 45 million of us owing a collective $1.6
trillion in student debt that not even Bernie Sanders could make disappear.

Considering $1.6 trillion dollars is about what we spend annually to maintain
our global military empire (when you include all the legacy costs including
paying for veterans healthcare), it really wouldn't be very difficult to make
it disappear at all. Of course, its a matter of priorities.

------
iamleppert
I had a friend who went to Academy of Art. He was from very humble beginnings.
He now runs a 100 million dollar fine art studio in SF. He made all the
connections and learned the business of high end art while in art school.

The article reads like the “crabs in a barrel” only applied to family
circumstances. Despite obvious talent, the father doesn’t want his child to
succeed and has systematically destroyed her dreams. It’s very sad.

------
m0zg
Yeah, at some point you have to consider the ROI. "Art school" is not going to
pay for itself. I'm not sure it's even useful for anyone truly talented, and
it's definitely not useful for someone who doesn't have talent. So I'm not
entirely sure what the point of it is.

------
dna_polymerase
The truth might be more nuanced though. Some colleges have better ROI than
others. I assume there is a lack of good data on most colleges, because people
who see the actual ROI on any given college wouldn't go to bad schools and
schools had more pressure to lower their rates (or invest in their programs).

~~~
BeetleB
> Some colleges have better ROI than others.

As is always pointed out when someone mentions ROI: No one should look at ROI
when it comes to colleges. You can end up with more wealth going to a lower
ROI school. What matters is how much more you earn than your costs
(difference, not ratio).

Spending $10K total for a very cheap undergrad and earning $30K/year means an
ROI of 3. Spending $100K total for undergrad and earning $120K/year is a lower
ROI, but you'll be a lot wealthier.

~~~
mennis16
Additionally, you have to be careful how the rankings source the salary
number. Obviously distribution of majors at different schools is a big factor,
but on top of that many rankings look at earnings within 5 years of
graduation. If your program tends to produce doctors, lawyers, etc. (in
particular when they choose to further specialize) the salary 5 years after
graduation is obviously not very good, but lifetime earning likely is. My
guess is if you take a random Ivy and a random state school, the Ivy is going
to have a notably higher percentage that pursues a graduate degree, which
means those 5 year numbers probably underrate the Ivy.

------
gtm1260
I'm not sure about this. I've taken out some loans to finance my education,
but overall I would say both experience and financial ROI have been totally
worth it.

If I went to any other program, I doubt that it would have been that way
(given, the thing I went to school for is weirdly specialized).

~~~
throwaway100773
Your school may be an exception. There are exceptions for most people, but the
acceptance rates are low. For example, a well adjusted middle class child
would be a foolish in most circumstances not to take out debt to attend
Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Stanford (and a select few other universities
where you can maximize the chances of vastly increasing the status of your
social network with four years of camaraderie). However, after you dip below a
certain level of status, the benefits are much less clear.

A middle class child may never have the opportunity to get exposure to one or
two notches up save for education. But this only exists in a select few
places.

------
gwbas1c
(After going to a fancy private school...)

IMO, Fancy private schools are like fancy luxury cars. Expensive, and get you
from point A to point B just as fast as the ultra-reliable mass market cars.

The only difference is that you pay more, and you might be slightly more
comfortable... And the fancy cars tend to break down more often.

In my case, my parents really pushed me towards a fancy private school. (I
wanted to go to the cheaper state school.) When applying, I noticed that the
state school was accredited in Computer Science, but the private school was
not. While in school, I realized that my professors were clueless. A few years
later, I learned that the state school had one of the best computer science
departments in the world, but no one heard of my fancy private school.

I realized that my parents were clueless about how education works, but
because they didn't get to go to college right out of high school, they
equated cost with quality.

Some times it's nice to pay extra money to sit in traffic in a fancy luxury
car; but it's only worth it if you aren't going into extensive debt for that
car.

------
therealmarv
Lived in many EU countries. Never seen a problem close to this one in that
countries regarding education.

~~~
turk73
This is a thoroughly American debacle brought on by Bill Clinton and abetted
by every US President since then. Their simplistic idea was to make education
"affordable" for all, and in their infinite wisdom, they fucked up higher
education beyond all recognition. They invited Wall Street bankers to come in
and wreak financial havoc. The schools were all in on the scheme, so if they
eventually all go under, remember, they have it coming.

------
peter303
50 years ago parents didnt always pay for a college education. A student could
pretty much earn his/her way through working quarter-time during school year
and full time in the summer. Thats what I did (at MIT). These days college
costs are proportionally much higher.

------
Tomte
"Don't Go to Art School": [https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/dont-go-to-art-
school-138c5efd45e...](https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/dont-go-to-art-
school-138c5efd45e9)

------
Balanceinfinity
A degree from an expensive private school or out of state school is a luxury
item, and parents need to treat them like the Jaguar or Porsche with a
comparable value. If your child got their license and asked for a Range Rover,
would you plunk down $100,000? Then why on earth would you do it for an
undergraduate degree to an expensive school.

If anything, the money should be saved for graduate school, where the big
payoff happens. If they can get through undergrad at the instate school (or
maybe an out-of-state public school) with the grades and pedigree for grad
school, then maybe Duke Law School, or University of Chicago Medical School
(or a masters from Stanford in engineering) is a worthwhile financial
investment, but never for undergrad.

~~~
bgorman
An undergraduate degree from an elite school helps with networking and gives
the student a "brand" that will help with getting all subsequent jobs. Same
phenomenon for business school- the curriculum isn't much better but the
connections and brand are much better.

~~~
Balanceinfinity
That misses the point. Jaguars are better (and more fun) than a Ford Focus.
The question is whether the branded school is worth the delta, and the answer
is that in most undergrad programs, it isn't. Let's take an example: Steve
wants to go to school for Computer Science. He'd really like to go to Duke,
but he also gets in at UC Irvine in California. If he's really good, he'll get
good grades at UCI, and he can go to Duke for a Masters (maybe on a free
ride). If he's only an average student, then he had no business going to Duke
because he wouldn't really be able to leverage the high powered degree anyways
(a C+ average from Duke isn't opening a ton of doors). Let's change the hypo
and make the major French Literature. Now, we know Steve will never be able to
repay Duke tuition with that degree, no matter how many influential people he
meets or how good his grades are.

The upshot: it's not that Duke isn't better than UCI - it clearly is. The
point is, is it a good investment. And it rarely is...unless you have the
extra money and can do it without the debt and without limiting your future
options. That's what makes it a luxury item.

------
thescriptkiddie
Just. Make. College. Free.

~~~
turk73
Troll.

Free = infinite demand. I don't think that will ever work anymore than
throwing open the floodgates at the border and letting in all the world's
surplus population who want to come and get free benes from us and wipe their
asses on our flag.

When something is given away for free, people value it less. So making college
"tuition free" e.g. saddled to the taxpayer, is not going to produce quality
graduates or get us any kind of ROI for us lowly, un-represented, long-
suffering American taxpayers. So I suppose if we make it "free" that could be
final nail in the coffin.

With the limitless debt situation we have in the US right now, the Fed could
just print off another $2-3 Trillion and paper over the whole damn thing. All
of us will be poorer, of course. You like getting paid in Monopoly money,
right? Zimbabwe dollars all right with you?

------
freistil
So... why not Europe? Germany, Switzerland, France...?

------
sys_64738
Guidance Counsellors are the problem here.

------
turk73
I have two children and one is coming up on college age. I'm not advocating
for "Ivy League" for her. There would have to be a really strong argument for
that because the prices have skyrocketed in the past 20 years. Nobody is
"working all summer to pay for college" unless it's at some corporate
internship that actually pays decent.

My kids need to be practical people, understand money and especially debt, and
be able to make strong investments choices--and also take the risks I couldn't
take. College debt is not a risk, it's a surefire way of being poor and having
fewer options. You have to have a plan you can articulate whenever you are
taking on debt.

The only reason I can see stretching to some rarefied school is because you
want to connect socially with people who are more well off than you are in
hopes of "marrying up." I think that what I just said did pretty much worked
out for me--after all the hard work I put in, a fundamental irony of my life
is that my happiness didn't come from schooling, it came from marrying the
right woman whom I would not have met had I not sought out a PhD. You can't
overlook the indirect benefits.

------
joshuaheard
It's not a simple binary choice between going to college on a loan or not
going because the parents can't afford it or don't want a loan. I worked my
way through college over 5 years with only a small loan. One can spend the
first two years at a community college for very low tuition then transfer to a
university. Large state universities have lower tuition than small private
universities. There are other means of financial aid besides loans, like
grants and scholarships.

But, not everyone needs to go to a university. Society needs to encourage more
vocational education for the trades, and encourage apprenticeships.

------
chiefalchemist
I wish the headline was: "I Helped My Teenager Grow Up. You Should, Too."

Student debt sucks. But the myth that these institutions are somehow
kidnapping high school students and forcing them to take on massive loans is a
myth that needs to be crushed.

The market has been flood with cheap easy to get money. Families are lining up
to bite off more than they should or could. This (i.e., demand) drives up
cost. The cycle continues.

~~~
WilliamEdward
This myth you've created is a strawman. No one is suggesting colleges
physically hold students ransom. The argument is that society is increasingly
forcing people to get degrees to keep up with the job climate and it is
effectively the same as forcing people into debt.

~~~
chiefalchemist
For the record, the bit about country clue unis is also mentioned in the book
The Coddling of the American Mind.

[https://www.thecoddling.com/](https://www.thecoddling.com/)

