
Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking - anarbadalov
https://www.wired.com/story/age-of-social-credit/
======
dqpb
Obligatory reference to Black Mirror's Nosedive episode:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive)

~~~
crdb
Whilst real world events have caused many people to focus on the social
ranking aspect of the story, when I watched it, I thought it was more
concerned with _privilege_ (and the loss thereof).

The main character actually worsens her fate by acting entitled and being
self-centered. Had she maintained her higher status, she both wouldn't have
been in situations of pain in the first place, nor found it necessary to make
a (here, social) effort to get out of them. In real life, being considerate to
people serving you pays off in the short term, and in aggregate makes for a
better society to live in (it is generally accepted in Western society that
insulting your waiter is really rude and antisocial, for example).

Interestingly, both people with low rankings (brother, truck driver) _appear_
to have bad manners (because they are direct) but are nice people deep down;
the point being the rating system is imperfectly implemented or optimising for
the wrong thing.

The parallel with the Chinese rating breaks down precisely because the show
rating is focused on this shallow idea of visible manners whilst the Chinese
system appears to correct fundamentally inconsiderate, widespread behaviour
(like stealing a shared bike), just as credit scoring in the West was
originally a means of increasing general welfare (by lowering rates for most
at the expense of the few who game the system).

The real parallel between the article and Black Mirror is this: the author,
who is privileged (he already lives in a considerate society where everybody
cooperates and the rule of law is a given) cannot understand the need for
Sesame; upon losing that privilege (by moving to China with a blank score) and
having to earn it back, he is upset just as the heroine of the episode was
("but I'm an honest guy, why should I pay a deposit to rent a bike?").

~~~
akvadrako
You're claiming the Chinese system optimises the right things, which might
even be true for now. But my experience is that any system optimising some
metrics eventually drifts from it's intended real goal as people and systems
learn to game those metrics.

In the Black Mirror episode, there just isn't room for being genuine and
maintaining a nice lifestyle because of social pressure. But it probably
worked a lot better when the system just started.

------
mythrwy
As alarming as this is (and it is alarming) at least it's explicit.

Another worrisome case is of blacklists/rankings that you can't see. No-fly
lists that no one knows why you are on. Secret watch lists. Conspiracies
against people with opposing political views with no clear way to know what
views may have triggered this and no path to straighten a misunderstanding up.

I oppose oppression in all forms but if we are going to have it, explicit is
better than implicit. (And flat is better than nested:).

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Note that if you are on the bad credit list, you aren’t allowed to fly or take
the train. I guess this is so you can’t flee from your debts.

~~~
usaar333
The article discusses two things:

> Sesame Credit, controlled by a private organization (Alipay)

> The government's List of Dishonest People, a blacklist of people who haven't
> paid fines.

(The article conflates them because the Sesame Credit scores are downgraded
based on whether the person has unpaid fines. However, Sesame Credit doesn't
affect the government list)

The "credit" list has no impact on trains/flying; nonpaying of government
fines does. This isn't too dissimilar from other countries, where failing to
pay government-issued fines results in disciplinary measures.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
[https://www.techinasia.com/china-citizens-scores-barred-
from...](https://www.techinasia.com/china-citizens-scores-barred-from-flights)

They call it a “social credit system” in china (the one that can get you
barred from flights), besides not paying your fines you can get on the list if
you happen to be a unharmonious dissident. It’s no wonder it is confused with
the sesame credit system, since they are both credit systems that run in
china. Here is a state-owned press link if you doubt tech Asia:

[http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1015549.shtml](http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1015549.shtml)

------
maltalex
Extra Credits made a video about Sesame Credit a couple of years ago. It's 7.5
minutes long, and well worth the watch:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI)

Being a game design channel, they discuss Sesame Credit as obedience to the
party, gamified.

------
thisisit
Couple of questions come to find:

a. How is this data accessed? Can anyone in my network access this? Because
even if we draw a parallel to credit scores, not everyone can access my credit
scores.

b. What kind of behavior is this encouraging? Most credit scores track bigger
picture items - credit card payment, loan payments etc. But, suppose I can see
my credit score go up and down then I might end up trying to avoid a specific
behavior.

c. How does the scoring work? If I buy say from a company known to sell VPN
services, do I lose points?

------
nerdponx
This smells like the Cultural Revolution. Scary.

~~~
castle-bravo
I don't see any similarity.

~~~
mc32
The article points this out specifically:

>"To understand the allure that social engineering holds for Chinese leaders,
you have to go back decades, to long before apps and big data. In the years
after the 1949 Communist Revolution, the government assigned everyone to local
work units, which became the locus of surveillance and control. Individuals
spied on their neighbors while also doing everything they could to avoid black
marks on their own dang’an, or government files. But maintaining the system
required massive state effort and oversight. As economic reforms in the 1980s
led millions of people to leave their villages and migrate to cities, the work
unit system fell apart. Migration also had a secondary effect: Cities filled
up with strangers and pianzi."

~~~
cheapsteak
I don't see any references to Cultural Revolution in that quote?

~~~
nerdponx
I don't know your background, so I'm not sure if you're being coy or genuinely
don't know. But the gist is: mass persecution, made possible by citizens
spying on each other. OK fair, nobody has been singled out or publicly
humiliated (yet), but it's the same setup. Forgive me if the Cultural
Revolution means something different to you; I'm going based on the
description given to me by one of my close friends, whose parents are from
China and experienced it.

~~~
cheapsteak
Appreciate the benefit of doubt, I honestly didn't see a connection and
thought you might have conflated Cultural Revolution with Communist
Revolution.

I think that I can understand where your interpretation came from, but
wouldn't really draw that connection here

Neighbors and friends and family "whistleblowing" each other to the government
certainly was an aspect of Cultural Revolution, but it never really struck me
as a distinctive/defining feature. The same things happened before Cultural
Revolution as well (note that the time period pointed out in the article is
1949, which is the year Communist China was established and revolutionary zeal
was high, but 17 years before the Cultural Revolution began), and the same
tattling can also be found during McCarthy-era America, and briefly in
post-9-11 America ("If You See Something, Say Something")

The more defining features of the Cultural Revolution (at least to Chinese) is
the persecution specifically of educated people (professors being harassed and
shamed into committing suicide. "the more educated, the more reactionary"),
the shunning of education (My grandpa had to shut the doors and teach his kids
in secret at home, quite a risky move if anyone found out), the scheduled
public demonstrations of loyalty to the party via everyone getting together to
dance the loyalty dance every morning, and a dogmatic adherence to party
lines, no rational or logic debate allowed (you will be shunned and reported).
Don't really see those features in this policy.

------
coldcode
How much of this is happening in the US already, but without our knowledge --
unless of course someone steals it and we read about it here. It all sounds so
convenient, yet at the same time I see where it will eventually wind up, as a
new kind of slavery.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>How much of this is happening in the US already, but without our knowledge

Probably a lot. My cousin (Nth generation rich white dude) took a class (at an
ivy league school) on the more technical side of terrorism where the professor
outright told them that the research they would need to do to get a good grade
they would result in them getting a lot more "random" searches at airports and
the like. He said other students confirmed that statement (I don't think he
had had occasion to travel via air between taking the class and our
conversation).

~~~
ygaf
Interesting price to pay for taking a class, is it part of any particular
degree? On the other hand I guess you really get to learn how your government
watches you.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Definitely not part of his degree. I think they had a professor who's
specialty was that sort of thing so it was a "sought after" elective.

------
justicezyx
I hope what China does give people a hint on how they were suffering for so
many years already, and can start doing something to prevent their own
government one day make those suffering mandatory...

------
jlcx
There's a strong implication that Sesame Credit and the Social Credit System
idea follow the example of FICO scores. Has anybody in the Chinese government
explicitly stated this?

~~~
intopieces
Why would the Chinese government need to explicitly state this? The parallels
are clear. The inventors of Sesame Credit and the Social Credit System have
access to the same history we do about the FICO system.

------
rfdub
The fact that they're doing this and the fact they're actively trying to
export their political ideology via their Confucius institutes, etc. terrifies
me. As China's influence grows, I worry they may make implementing similar
systems of condition of doing business with them and that developing countries
(in Africa especially) who are becoming increasingly reliant upon China for
development funding, will lack the power to push back against this dystopian
bullshit.

~~~
ilaksh
That political ideology is not particular to China. Suppression of political
consent and overall increasing control are natural tendencies of government.
People can be put on a list in the US for example and exempted from flying
anywhere.

~~~
paulryanrogers
Did you mean 'dissent'?

~~~
ilaksh
Right. Stupid autocorrect.

------
chrischen
We have private market ranking systems like your credit score.

Quantifying karma is a good idea, if implemented correctly and within
limitations of accuracy.

~~~
clouddrover
> _Quantifying karma is a good idea_

Why? Many people hold many opinions about me, almost all of which are wrong. I
don't see the value in a global database of opinions about me which I can't
control and which will affect me in ways I can't predict.

~~~
volgo
I'd find that helpful. If a lot of people have negative opinion about you, you
have no place in my life, sorry. I don't want to deal with some society
outsider

~~~
whytaka
I believe that is called prejudice. Prejudiced people frighten me, their moral
considerations so unthorough, and this makes me think I wouldn’t want to deal
with someone like you.

But I’d give you a chance first.

~~~
volgo
It's not prejudice. And big surprise, you're exactly like me, just unwilling
to vocalize it.

The fact that people are rushing to downvote me for voicing a contrary opinion
(and emboldening others to disagree and downvoting me too) is the exact
embodiment of what I just described. Like it or not, human beings don't like
outsiders and people that others dislike

~~~
jonnybgood
Yes. We already have a silent score we give to people in our minds based on
how much conformity is shared. It’s instinctually hardwired in to us.

~~~
ericd
Sure, and it is that generally harmful impulse that probably inspired the
creation of this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rwsuXHA7RA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rwsuXHA7RA)

------
ilaksh
In case people aren't making the connection, this ties in with the net
neutrality issue in the US.

The core thing that they are attempting to do is to declare that the internet
is no longer a river of information that they just pass along. Making this
change is really important if you want more control over what people say and
do on the internet.

Without net neutrality, it is easier to start funnelling more and more people
through monopolies that cooperate with the government. The Chinese apps are a
good example of that.

Make no mistake, the United States is no longer the bastion of freedom you
believe it to be. And many in government would _love_ to be able to more
effectively stifle political dissent and move to a one party system.

~~~
jnordwick
This hyperbole about lack of Title II classification being the end of
democracy, capitalism, the intetnet, or the United States is getting really
tiresome.

~~~
ilaksh
I was quite aware that some people would be tired and consider it hyperbole
when I wrote that. Unfortunately these trends have been ongoing for quite some
time. This apathy and dismissal of the net neutrality incident as being an
isolated independent problem worries me. If some people become tired from
reading my comments, that's too bad. But if you are going to dismiss them
anyway, maybe you should not even bother reading them.

