
Did you buy that latte 2 hours ago? Think about leaving the coffee shop - jamessun
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/you-ordered-that-latte-two-hours-ago-think-about-leaving-the-coffee-shop/2015/07/08/caa597bc-19ef-11e5-bd7f-4611a60dd8e5_story.html
======
walterbell
This is a subset of a larger civic issue with increasing pressure on private
spaces as public spaces shrink,
[http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/87169002-d87a-11e4-ba53-00144...](http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/87169002-d87a-11e4-ba53-00144feab7de.html#axzz3fLjhw9Zo)

 _" People like public space. Just as they like to work in a coffee shop on a
laptop surrounded by others, they want to hang out with friends, to people-
watch, flirt, take part in the rituals of public life.

In the suburbs, the 20th-century answer to the need for “public” space was the
mall. The first were in the US in the 1950s, conceived as public places with
kindergartens, medical centres and community facilities alongside the shops.
Within a few years, only the shopping was left.

Malls have come a long way since. “Malls without walls”, whole shopping
districts, resemble parts of the city, with real streets and brick and stone
façades, and transpire to be privately owned. Liverpool One is an example.
Cash-strapped municipalities cannot compete and people throng to these places.
Users, once citizens, are rebranded as consumers."_

From [http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/7/stop-
treating-c...](http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/7/stop-treating-
citizens-as-consumers.html)

 _" The consumer-citizen pops up all over the place, like a cardboard stand-in
for democratic citizens who have no other political concerns beyond self-
interested consumption .. the public is hung out to dry with effectively no
defense or recourse since our political rights have evaporated into market
choices._"

~~~
llebttamton
The remaining malls in the U.S. are living on borrowed time.

In general, there's no/fewer public drinking fountains, fewer public
restrooms, shrinking number of places that doesn't involve soup-Nazi
consumerism and ever less spaces for homeless and the elderly to not be
bothered. It's a not-so-subtle form of hate directed at anyone unable or
unwilling to be extorted on a regular basis. Folks are going to get their
power and heat/air-conditioning somehow, but there's big trouble in store for
any shop owner that retaliates against customers... because they will
inevitably find ways to ruin the business. Starbucks is immensely profitable
and doesn't have to resort to passive-aggressive hate and discrimination
games.

~~~
inthewoods
Interesting article on why the idea that malls are dying may be more a media
concept than reality:

[http://www.citylab.com/design/2015/03/shopping-malls-
arent-a...](http://www.citylab.com/design/2015/03/shopping-malls-arent-
actually-dying/387925/)

"The dead or dying mall is a real phenomenon. But all you have to do is invert
these figures to get the bigger picture, which looks very different. If 20
percent of malls are in trouble, then 80 percent are still healthy. If 3.4
percent of malls are dying, then 96.6 percent of them aren't. (When the New
York Times ran an otherwise nuanced front-page story on struggling malls in
January, the accompanying graphic had a top line of 20 percent, wrongly
suggesting that a rash of dead malls was a pandemic.)"

------
noobermin
I wouldn't be surprised if a significant number of people here do this. I do
this as well. Most of the time, I'm not asked to leave, but other times, if I
feel guilty, I buy something else, like another coffee or a sweet. I suppose
I'd willing to "rent" space if it were available.

A funny relevant anecdote. Yesterday, I was at home trying to work, and I
could not focus, so I walked to a nearby coffeeshop. Apparently, a group was
filming something in half of the shop, so another section with most of the
seats was closed off, as well as outside seating in front of it. Naturally,
the remaining seats were full.

So, I randomly asked a person if I could share a seat with her. I didn't make
small talk, I just sat and read. After twenty minutes or so, she got up to
leave. After a while of reading, I saw a number of people come in and be told
they might have to take to-go since the place was full. I was more than
willing to share a seat at my table, and a number of other tables had open
seats, but no one approached me, or anyone else for that matter...

So, I got up, and purchased a slice of cake to-go. A gentleman who was waiting
for a chair thanked me and took my place.

Now, on the way home, there is a chocolate shop which has a couple of seats as
well. I decided to peer inside, and guess who I see in the window? The lady
who's table I took, apparently. :/

I guess I can't fault other people for not being as comfortable about sharing
"personal space" as I am, but especially in that sort of situation, it hurts
more than it helps.

~~~
ryandrake
I've seen this as well. Some people get really weirded out when you sit down
and share a table with them when it gets busy. There's a table there that
seats six, and you're just two people sitting at it. It's not YOUR exclusive
table. You don't own it. If you really want to have a private conversation
without anyone around, don't go to a busy coffee shop.

~~~
speeder
Near where I live there is a bakery/cafe/bar hybrid that has all tables being
3 tables for 2 people joined side by side.

When it is full, frequently it happens that if there is two people on one set
of 6, the other 4 places are empty (does not matter where the two people are).

Except when the staff bother separating the tables by a inch or two, then all
tables get used, it is a really curious effect.

~~~
r00fus
Amusingly, in such a situation, I explicitly separate or join the tables
myself to fit my party size.

------
dataker
Please stay in my coffee shop.

Although that person is using your internet with a $4 coffee, they're
occupying space after everybody "is gone"(9am-11am and 1pm-4pm), contributing
with their physical presence.

A newcomer, that may end up becoming a long-term customer, would feel more
biased towards places with more customers( or the idea of).

So, although it might seem financially reasonable to kick them out, I doubt
it's the best answer.

~~~
cam-
We do hackathons at a local craft coffee/beer cafe. I usually turn up with
between 4 to 12 engineers and they all get coffee, beer, food on an expensed
credit card. The guy that manages the place told me we could reserve tables
like conference rooms if we wanted. Pretty cool.

------
ben1040
There was a coffee shop I used to frequent that used a captive portal for
wifi, and the only way to get past it was to enter a 90 minute passcode from
the bottom of your purchase receipt.

So if I came in there at night after work I considered it basically paying for
internet, and getting a free coffee or pastry alongside it. Seemed perfectly
fair.

I also find it amusing that Starbucks gives you free refills on brewed/ice
coffee, provided you go enough to get their "gold" status (usually, 30 store
visits a year).

They don't care if you camp there and keep getting free refills on coffee.
They just care that you do it _often_.

~~~
ckrailo
Btw, green status gets you the free refills (5 store visits).

------
vyrotek
Shops should have colored or labeled cups associated to the time of purchase.
Would a little shaming get people moving? Everyone would know how long
everyone else has been there.

------
dfcowell
It's super-simple, people. Understand that by being _that person_ with the
laptop taking up table real estate you're consuming a resource that the
proprietor uses to generate revenue. Customers who might otherwise come in,
sit down and make a purchase will keep walking if there are no tables
available.

Put another way - it's like that one client who paid you $50 to install a
WordPress plugin 6 months ago who calls you weekly to troubleshoot their
printer problems.

There's a very simple thing you can do which will keep any cafe owner happy.
Every 25-30 minutes, have a glance around and check for vacant tables. If
there are fewer than two tables available (or maybe one in smaller cafes) it's
time to move on. The only exception being if you have just sat down, in which
case, finish your food and beverage and leave.

------
bazzargh
I feel guilt about this _all the time_. I work remotely, in the UK but on US
Eastern time to synch with my team. Fortunately this means I can go to cafes
after the lunch rush, but make sure I buy enough food and drink to not be a
freeloader, tip well, and if it's busy - move on. Working from home is what
I'm going back to anyway, it's just nice to get out of the house.

~~~
Domenic_S
It's way easier if the cafe also sells food. Me and 2 others basically built a
company some years back out of a cafe in Sacramento, but we always bought lots
of coffee and bought our lunch there as well. We all shared 1 table too so the
space was used well, and of course talked to the owner who had no problem.

Here's a great way to discourage campers: no outlets, not even 1.

~~~
bazzargh
One of the cafes in the area put packing tape over all the outlets. When they
did this I worked out that the coffee I drank cost over 200 times the
electricity they saved-as you say they must be trying to displace people, not
save money- but my MBP lasts nearly 6 hours[1] so I'm not so easily put off if
the place is good :)

[1] I use Turbo Boost Switcher to stop the cpu running hot and gfxCardStatus
to stick to integrated graphics. This seems to give me nearly 2h extra. I
don't need speed for compiles or anything like that.

~~~
kijin
Hiding the outlets could act as a filter that only lets people camp out if
they own a brand-new, expensive device with long battery life. That could work
very well if the cafe is trying to cultivate a richer and trendier clientele.

On the other hand, it would also look similar to how Abercrombie & Fitch
refuses to make clothes in large sizes, in order to prevent fat people from
shopping in their stores.

------
splitdisk
This is something one would never see in Europe. In Paris it's acceptable to
buy an expresso, or a glass of wine and stay for hours. On my last day in
Paris I did this and got a free bowl of chips too! Talk about hospitality.

~~~
boompow
What is this "expresso" you talk about?

~~~
splitdisk
Sorry, espresso. People correct me about this all the time. It's such an
ingrained habit I don't know if I'll ever be able to pronounce/type that word
properly.

~~~
srean
Expresso is often how it is pronounced in India and when they do that they
often really mean a cappuccino.

------
_chris_
The real solution is the local library needs to offer coffee.

~~~
noobermin
As well as good wifi, some renovations, and better decor[0].

[0] At least in my experience. I'm not sure what it is about coffeeshops.
Their decor is just conducive to working, much more than the local library, at
least.

~~~
Sevrene
Yes! Imagine if your local library was furnished more like an old book store;
with decadent yet comfortable furniture and more soft lighting that is just
slightly more yellow than the bright white they use. All the libraries I have
been to (admittedly not many, these days) all look like hospitals.

~~~
extropic-engine
All libraries should aspire to be more like Seattle Central Library. Good
coffee, amazing architecture, fast wifi. Oh, and lots of books if you're into
reading or whatever.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Central_Library](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Central_Library)

~~~
Sevrene
I can't help but feel I am living in the future with such buildings existing
like that. It looks like a space ship!

Sadly though many libraries, especially rural and regional ones just can't
afford that.

------
zdean
This seems like a UX/UI failure on the part of the coffee shop if he has to
intervene in the customers' experience. The coffee shops I go to do a good job
of making it clear what kind of customers they want by virtue of the
experience you have there. This weekend I encountered the first coffee shop I
can remember visiting that lacked wifi. I looked around and saw nothing but
groups of people in conversation. Other shops I'm a regular at never make it
awkward for me to sit there...whether with just a cup of coffee or a steady
stream of drinks. If there's an outcome you want with your space, there's
probably a good way to configure it so that you meet your end goal.

~~~
coolnow
>UX/UI failure on the part of the coffee shop

I know this is HN, but is it necessary to shoehorn computer references into
situations where it's not needed?

~~~
jordanthoms
It is, apparently.

------
voltagex_
I'd pay by the hour for fast wifi + power, but the coffee would have to be
free...

Edit: this part of the article stood out -

>“A croissant and a coffee to support a local business are a lot cheaper than
a co-working membership.”

Yep. I wonder if it's a lack of co-working spaces or pricing to "what the
market will bear".

I need a cross between a hackerspace and a co-working space.

~~~
GBond
This describes the coworking space I frequent... and I can buy decent snacks
as well

------
WalterSear
If you don't want people using the third space you set up as a third space,
open a restaurant instead and call it that.

------
rwhitman
There were campers in retail spaces even before laptops and mobile tech
existed.

They weren't as common and were harder to spot but back when I worked in an
independent bookstore pre-broadband era, there was always a subset of the
customer base that would use the bookstore and it's cafe as their home.

Basically, if you've ever worked in retail you know that certain subtle
signals give the hint to the majority of customers of your intentions without
saying a word. Changing lighting for instance is huge.

However, there will always be a certain subgroup of people that have a sort
mentality, based on maybe mammal instinct, that if you mark a small amount of
territory in a public space, it belongs to you to and you can therefore use it
in any way you like for however long you like until someone challenges you for
the territory and wins. This type of person, when armed with a laptop and cell
phone, becomes a particularly obnoxious problem when they're a coffee shop
nomad. Moms with strollers often fall into the same category, but it's a
social minefield raising the issue in public.

Anyhow this is why coffee shop owners, no matter how hard they try, will not
be able to remove a small malignant group of knowledge working nomads without
a daily fight. The rest of us get the owner's hints, but the "It's My
Territory" people will always find a way to give the Average Joe Laptop Worker
a bad name...

------
mercer
My general approach is to buy a coffee or snack every once in a while, and
more frequently when I notice that I'm occupying 'valuable' space. This might
be the case even when there are plenty of empty seats, but they share a table
with occupied seats.

At lunch or dinner time, when it gets busy, I usually leave so the cafe
doesn't lose on customers ordering something substantial, or I order something
bigger myself.

When I frequent the same place often I also try to make sure to get to know
the staff, and help them out a bit by at the very least bringing my dirty
stuff to the counter if I'm one of the few customers there. They seem to
really like the occasional chat when it's quiet, and it has all kinds of perks
(including just the interpersonal quality).

I don't really understand why so many people don't employ a similar approach.
I mean, it's not that it surprises me: here in the West at least people seem
to really relish the 'consumer/employee' approach where somehow a
'transaction' replaces any human connection.

But I still don't understand it, as part of the fun of being outside of the
house, and life in general, is interacting with other _humans_ , rather than
_roles_ (cashiers, waiters, etc.). I often go to the slightly pricier Turkish
supermarket in my neighbourhood instead of the supermarket precisely because I
get to have a nice chat with a guy I sort of know, and observe a slice of life
in this colorful immigrant/poor neighbourhood.

------
srean
I would be a happy customer if coffee shops sold their most popular product
directly: time @ the coffee shop. I guess the businesses would be happier too.

One should figure out a more efficient way of handling short term leases than
that coffee mug that proxies as something that is almost but not quite totally
unlike a lease agreement.

Take my credit card and charge me on how much time I have been there, hand out
blinking timers...whatever works.

~~~
dang
I love working in cafes and have done it a ton. Every so often someone tries a
radical variation on the basic model, but it almost always feels awkward and
doesn't last long. One that I was surprised to see actually work, though, is
the Workshop Cafe in SF's financial district. Their model is much what you
described. It's a cross between a huge café and a big office, which ought to
be terrible, but manages not to be. The coffee is good and the internet is
very good. And it's often pretty busy, so I guess people are using it as
intended.

~~~
srean
Glad that it worked. As long as it is not too noisy, I really love working
from cafe's.

------
jsn117
Haha no, that's why I bought the coffee. I have a machine at home

------
mc32
I think the thing here is that technology in the form of headphones, portable
devices, telework, etc. Allow people to share the conviviality of shared
spaces but without giving back because they can isolate themselves --as they
are wont to in their shared floorspaces at work.

So not interacting with someone else and just being immersed in oneself is
okay because they are not aware of their surrounds except for when they glance
up.

Before gadgets, you'd have to bring friends with you or meet friends (who
would also buy things). But now you can buy some nominal item and excuse
yourself for as long a you wish --at least in mind. And some people feel
entitled to the space. The Starbucks of the world can carry that deadweight,
but not so much independent shops.

------
malandrew
Why not just get one of those wi-fi setups where a wi-fi password is printed
on the receipt and the number of minutes/hours of wi-fi the customer receives
is either a fixed amount or tied to the amount of margin you're making on a
customer for that transaction.

It basically says to the customer "Want to continue working here? Buy another
coffee."

This of course doesn't address those that show up with their personal
hotspots, but I feel like that is still the minority of coffee shop campers.

Removing wall outlets is another deterrent. You can only keep working as long
as you have juice. That said, battery life for mobile devices is getting
longer, so this tactic isn't always effective.

------
kleer001
Easy fix. Have a 30-45 minute free zone with purchase. Along with the monthly
rentals noted in the article. And maybe even a poster with the nearest
libraries and Christian Science reading rooms.

------
mavdi
This is becoming a real issue for me. I've basically stopped goings to cafes
and bars because the owners seem annoyed by me camping around and I can only
drink so many cups of coffee a day. I would gladly pay an hourly rent if
they'd be happy with that but it seems once they've decided that I'm not
welcome there nothing can change their mind.

~~~
mercer
If these places are run by the owners, perhaps you could consider asking them
directly if paying some amount directly is an option? I think even just asking
might make them less annoyed!

------
kendallpark
> Over the past three years, owner Cristian Velasco grew frustrated with
> customers who would “buy a Coke, open their laptop, and take up a large area
> of my couch — 10 square feet of my space — for a Coca-Cola for $1.50 for
> five hours.”

I have definitely been that customer.

------
manicdee
So how can you monetize the desire of people to work in comfortable semi-
social private spaces?

You have deliberately made the space comfortable for long stays. Now figure
out how to get the users to pay the rent!

------
leepowers
I've definitely guilty of doing this. Usually I get so engrossed in my work I
lose track of time. I have no problem with proprietors asking me to make
another purchase or leave.

------
tokai
Why not use a library?

~~~
Spooky23
Libraries in many places have been devastated by budget cuts.

My local library is open 10-2 some days!

~~~
ild
Go to local university library. Enjoy 8-10.

~~~
letstryagain
For some universities you need a student card to get in to the library

------
balls187
If that is the typical dialog between the owner and the customer, than I have
to assume that the owner is an idiot, as are patrons of his establishment.

------
hans_mueller
A coffee shop is not public space. It's a private space opened to the public
under conditions defined by the owner of the shop.

------
lcfg
If someone "just" bought something in your shop (as mentioned in the article)
you shouldn't bother them. If you're running a business like this, managing
expectations is a large part of your job.

When discussions with customers occur frequently maybe it's time to review how
your business is communicating with customers. What can be done to prevent
misunderstandings regarding using laptops/hogging tables? etc.

~~~
rrss1122
What can be done is really to bother them. They set up to filter all outside
noise anyway so that's the only way to get their attention.

If a coffee shop owner gets a bad reputation among teleworkers doing this,
then that just means less for the coffee shop owner, getting him exactly the
objective he wanted.

------
llebttamton
The other issue not dealt with in any of these articles is the promulgation
and inciting of a new form of hate.

------
staunch
Could you solve this by having very small tables, stands, or counters that
don't work as desks?

~~~
DanAndersen
The coffee-shop version of anti-homeless spikes?

~~~
staunch
More like the benches with dividers so they work for their intended purpose
but not for sleeping.

