
Adi Shamir Prevented from Attending Crypto and Cryptology Conferences - cantrevealname
http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/27.54.html#subj1
======
buro9
My visa takes a long while.

Not quite as long as it took Adi Shamir, but long.

On average it takes about 14 weeks to get a visa, but on occasion it has taken
many many months.

I've done the calculations, the worst-case scenario for the full process is 32
weeks. It's never actually taken that long, but it's not been far off.

I remember having to explain to Microsoft that they needed to write a
sponsor/supporting letter (for the US embassy) more than half a year in
advance of any potential visit to Redmond that I'd be working at. As this was
for DAC (Developer Advisory Council) meetings that Microsoft only scheduled a
month in advance they found themselves in a dilemma over this. Thankfully they
agreed, and their legal department would author letters that a meeting would
likely occur requiring my attendance, but it was always a slog of a process.

For those wondering, I was shortly married to a US citizen and I speculate
that this triggers some flag or signal that makes them think I want to stay
there (I don't). I also have an interesting past, having been homeless for a
while. Who knows though, the system doesn't supply answers. It's a black box
process.

It's a nightmare process that doesn't end when you have a visa. On arrival I
experience the joys of "secondary", and being sat in a waiting room for many
hours before a 10-second interview in which they let me go my way.

Every part of the experience is a miserable one, always with the threat of an
axe over the visit.

The vast majority of the time I have been invited, or had opportunities to
visit, I just do not choose to visit the USA.

~~~
sireat
What has been your the worst experience in the "secondary".

I had the dubious privilege of being sent to secondary upon arrival in Houston
earlier this year.

The experience reminded me of old Soviet Union or something out of Kafka.

My wait was not very long maybe 30 minutes and after that I was sent on my way
without any interview or anything, but those were some extremely long minutes.

I first made the mistake of sitting down in the "comfy" chair, which
apparently was reserved for those poor souls who have to remain in secondary
overnight or longer.

Then I noticed a sign No Electronic Devices Allowed, which meant no tablet, no
e-reader no nothing. So better bring a book ("Consolation of Philosophy"
perhaps?).

There were no progress or status updates or anything. I saw some misplaced
NATO soldiers sent on their way quickly, while an elderly Russian emigree
couple was berated for leaving US to travel.

Then there were people in the comfy chairs who had resigned to their fate and
simply were sleeping or pretending to.

Again, this doesn't sound that bad, but the problem was that there was
absolutely no indication on how long this process could take. No queue numbers
no nothing.

I am supposed to go to US again soon, but I am extremely wary now.

What is the worst experience in the secondary that you've experienced?

~~~
buro9
The worst was the first time.

I didn't know what to expect or how long it might take, and I wasn't as
prepared as I could be.

You sit there sweating, wondering what's happening and why there is an issue.
And you want to help, and offer information that might smooth the process or
speed it up, but they're not interested in your opinion they will take their
time to determine whatever it is that they are looking for from other parties.

That first time I was asked for paperwork that I didn't have on me, things
stored in email were useless to me (I couldn't turn on the laptop, it wouldn't
be trusted as information, etc), and I'd left most details in my laptop except
for the hotel details.

It's the sitting there, not knowing, as hours drift by and you wonder whether
your bags are still safe as they sit on the baggage collection belt. As you
wonder whether the hotel has re-sold your room as you are a no-show now.
Whether the public transport still runs or whether you have to get an
expensive taxi.

And all the time you know you're held in this interim place and there's
definitely no guarantee you'll be let through. So there's a fear that you
could be going home and whatever plans you've made will come to nought, and
that you'd be humiliated by the process as you'd have to communicate to peers
or potential clients that sorry you're unable to meet them.

The isolation is the hardest bit the first time this happens.

I've never had a visa or entry declined, and whilst secondary can take hours
(of sitting in silence as the fear touches everyone at some point) it's only
taken a few seconds once I'm finally called and the staff are always polite
and as friendly as you imagine they could be.

In preparation just print everything you could possibly need: contact details,
meeting details, entry tickets to conferences, work schedule, accommodation
details, things to prove you have plans to leave. Make sure that people on
your contact list know that they may be called (they were my first time, but
to my knowledge they no longer are). Take a book or two. And put a few snacks
in your bag from the departure airport.

Nowadays I just read as peacefully as I can. Sometimes on a busy flight, if
it's a large conference or event there will be someone I know also in the tech
industry and attending something. So when that happens I find it can be a good
time to have a chat and catch up with someone.

Secondary takes hours, anyone can deal with that. The real problem is the visa
takes weeks or months. I've missed conferences, missed meetings, missed a
friend's wedding. Real-life events sail merrily by as you wait to hear from
the US embassy.

The real problem is what affected Adi Shamir's visit. Visa's shouldn't take an
indeterminate amount of time to process, and I've also done it so many times
that they know everything there is about me (and probably Adi too) already.

------
lvryc
I quite like the 'apology' he received from the conference organizers:

> In July 2013 I told the NSA-affiliated conference organizers that I was
> having some problems in getting my visa, and gently asked whether they could
> do something about it. Always eager to help, the NSA people leaped into
> action, and immediately sent me a short email written with a lot of tact:

> “The trouble you are having is regrettable… Sorry you won’t be able to come
> to our conference. We have submitted our program and did not include you on
> it.”

------
anon1385
This was also submitted yesterday but didn't get much interest for some
reason:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6560355](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6560355)

Similar recent story:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6499744](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6499744)
'US scientists boycott Nasa conference over China ban'

~~~
chmars
It was actually submitted at least twice yesterday:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6562394](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6562394)

On HN, gaining interest depends on many factors. Great to see the story
finally in the pole position! :)

~~~
cantrevealname
How much you can relate to the title is very important -- even on HN. Look at
the 3 submission titles on HN:

(1) Cryptographer Adi Shamir Prevented from Attending NSA History Conference

(2) How The Government Blocked An Expert From Attending Its Own Cryptology
Symposium

(3) Adi Shamir--the "S" in RSA encryption--Prevented from Attending US Crypto
Talks

Number 3 (this submission) is getting the exposure the story deserves, and the
reason (I think) is that everyone on HN knows what RSA is, and would have
respect for its inventors.

~~~
aviraldg
I find it difficult to believe that there are people who know about RSA, but
not about Adi Shamir.

~~~
amirmc
> _I find it difficult to believe that there are people who know about RSA,
> but not about Adi Shamir._

I've heard of RSA (and DSA) and come across it every time I've needed a key
pair (e.g for GitHub) but never thought what the letters stood for. Finding
out the name of one of the people behind it is news to me.

------
rburhum
As somebody that has held six different US immigration statuses during a span
of a couple of decades, I can almost assure you there is no malice behind this
and just pure bureaucratic incompetence. I once had a paper that was supposed
to arrive in three months take three _years_. What I learned is that going to
the USCIS office after something is due and checking the status _will_ make a
difference since, for example, you can spot (common) routing errors with
applications.

~~~
hrasyid
Nobody said there's malice.

~~~
mrgoldenbrown
I disagree. The article itself implies possible malice. It mentions "personal
vendetta" (with no supporting evidence or even speculation as to why) as a
potential cause of the delay. I would consider a personal vendetta to be
malicious.

------
cantrevealname
Adi Shamir wrote that the president of his institute says:

 _" It is clear that scientists have been singled out, since I hear that other
‘simple citizen’, do get their visa in a short time."_

Scientists get more scrutiny? What in the world is going on there?

~~~
mhlakhani
From the visa guidelines of the embassy where I applied for my visa [1]:

 _The visa applications of applicants involved in technical or scientific
fields may require additional administrative processing. Therefore, applicants
who believe they may be affected by this requirement should apply as early as
possible._

[1]
[http://karachi.usconsulate.gov/technology_visas.html](http://karachi.usconsulate.gov/technology_visas.html)

~~~
danielweber
Right, scientific and technical people _will_ get extra scrutiny. Under the
US's threat model -- moral or not -- it is not the janitors and artists you
worry about, it's the people visiting our nuclear, biological, and high-
technology facilities.

The fact that this has very bad side effects on technological progress is
important, but it's not like the government gives smart people scrutiny
because it hates smart people. This behavior is brutally rational if you just
look at their primary mission.

------
zhuzhuor
AFAIK, USA has been a second choice for crypto-related conferences for many
years. If you ever attended one such conference, you will notice there will
always some speakers/presenters couldn't attend due to visa issues. I guess
many US people aren't even aware of this, but visa problem has been a huge
pain for non US citizens. You can ask about this if you have any friends who
are international students or H1B workers.

------
rb2k_
It's not that they didn't give him a J1 visa, it's just that they took way too
long to process it. It sucks, but I wouldn't attribute to malice what I could
attribute to inefficiency :)

~~~
chmars
It should not take four months and pulling a lot of strings to get a visa, in
particular if you have been to the US for many times, have invitations from
renowned institutions etc.

I am not a scientist and I can usually enter the US on the visa waiver program
but I always wonder if the latest visit was also the last, you never know. And
while you get used to the usual 1- or 2-hour wait at immigration, you never
know if you get selected for a secondary check or worse. As much as I like the
US and being in the US, entering the US is always very unpleasant.

~~~
eli
Nothing about the US Visa process works the way it should work.

------
piqufoh
> Indeed, public-key cryptography might not even be with us today if Adi had
> not been involved with Ron Rivest and Leonard Adleman so long ago.

There you go, those pesky scientists making the surveillance industry's job
that little bit harder.

~~~
einhverfr
That is pretty clearly what it is about....

------
informatimago
What is obvious is that "Adi Shamir" is a name of someone living in a country
dominated by Islam, and further that person is known to work in cryptography,
so he is obviously a terrorist trying to send secret orders to other
terrorists. In any case, he's a PITA for the NSA and other good guys like
that. What they should have done, is to give him a visa, and redirect his
flight direct to Guantanamo for further interrogation.</sarcasm level=big>

A tad more seriously: it's because of all those scientists of all the ages,
that they have this situation where mere peasants can travel all around the
globe, and make bombs or pilot planes into buildings. In the good old time, if
a peasant tried to escape, he was eaten by the wolfs in the hoods, or killed
by the highwaymen, so they stayed put, and the most they could try to do was
to bump the armor of the lord with their wooden forks.

So it seems only natural to try to restrict them like that (perhaps it's a
little too late).

~~~
WizzleKake
Wat. He's from Israel.

...

~~~
thebooktocome
As if border control cares.

------
ra
I think if the US must continue to have such draconian and onerous entry
requirements they should offer a fast track or simplified program for persons
of note to attend a specific event in their field.

To not do so simply hinders the progress of human knowledge, or at least, it
hinders the United States.

~~~
cantrevealname
> fast track or simplified program for persons of note

There actually is a visa for Outstanding persons called O-1A: _individuals
with an extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business, or
athletics_
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa)).

I don't know if it's any faster to get it.

~~~
daurnimator
It takes even longer; the documentation required is very strict, and due to
the wide range of applicants, hard+subjective to judge.

~~~
gngeal
Huh...so the ACM Turing Award does not qualify? And a Nobel prize wouldn't
either, I suppose? So what _does_?

~~~
ra
This is precisely the problem. "Policy on the run" becomes ill-designed red
tape.

------
kartikkumar
Why did he apply for a J-1 visa? I've been on a J-1 a couple of times for
research stints in the US, but my understanding is that for conferences, you
can also make use of the B-1 visa [1], as stated on the State department's
website. The B-1 is generally processed much more quickly, with the J-1
requiring a lot more documentation.

[1]
[http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_2665.html#...](http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_2665.html#1)

------
Sidnicious
Why not attend by telepresence? Let him present by video and hook him up with
a Double or similar internet-controllable robot to talk to people around the
conference. Or go full-on Bluth and pair up with an American proxy wearing a
headset.

This sucks, sure, but there's always another way.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
I've been thinking you could hook up a cam/mic to one of those Roomba vacuum
'bots and then you could cruise around the conference and network with your
colleagues just as though you were there. I understand those things have wifi
already, so....

The coolest part would be bumping into other Roombas that represent colleagues
from elsewhere (you'd need a way to distinguish from an ordinary, autonomous
Roomba). There could even be a Roomba room just for them!

~~~
askew
And on the plus side, to escape any awkward conversations you can simply start
vacuuming!

------
raverbashing
Can anyone explain why it involved a J1 visa? I thought a B-1 sufficed for
attendance (and even non-compensated presentations)

~~~
piqufoh
If you're already on a J1 you can only apply to have it renewed, and if you
don't you get a two-year visa ban.

------
bhitov
For those of you in the Cambridge area, he will instead be giving a talk at
MIT tomorrow.

'DISSECTION: A NEW PARADIGM FOR SOLVING BICOMPOSITE SEARCH PROBLEMS'

[https://calendar.csail.mit.edu/events/116296](https://calendar.csail.mit.edu/events/116296)

------
frank_boyd
Why not organize important events such as this one elsewhere, some place more
easily accessible for everyone?

------
gngeal
I hope this will spur research and development in the area of telepresence.

~~~
informatimago
Or just spur research outside of the USA, this is not the center of the world.

------
mortdeus
There needs to be legislation that allows foreign scientist's visas to be
rushed to the front of the line when they have a science convention. I mean
just imagine if doctor A had information to present that would help doctor B
find a cure for HIV or something just important.

Are we really making it that difficult for the smartest people in the world to
convene and discuss all the new smart stuff they know with the other smartest
people in the world?

~~~
tedunangst
Not only scientists and doctors, but programmers too. Just imagine if somebody
invented a new rails plugin that could be used to help build the next
wikileaks or something but they weren't able to demonstrate it at a meetup.

------
Yuioup
Does this have anything to do with the recent shutdown?

~~~
chmars
No, he received his visa on the day before the shutdown began.

------
bowlofpetunias
I'm surprised nobody is offended by the fact that an Israeli needs a visa for
the US in the first place.

~~~
nir
I'm Israeli, not sure why this should be offensive :) AFAIK most foreigners
need a visa, except for EU and few other nations.

~~~
gambiting
And even within the EU Polish citizens still need visas, it's a massive pain.
It's basically because after the fall of communism a lot of Polish people went
to US with travel visas and stayed, so when the visa requirement was dropped
for all EU countries, Poland was explicitly excluded from that arrangement. So
now if I wanted to go to US I would need to apply at an embassy first.

~~~
Kliment
Many EU countries are excluded from the VWP, not just Poland.

------
JanezStupar
I have been to the USA in the past. I would like to see more than I have seen
and I would also like to participate in the wonderful US economy.

However upon the last visit I really took offence with the security theatre
(that was in 2008 mind you and I am from a visa waiver country). Another
factor is that USA chooses to not grant me a visa under which I start a
business in the US under reasonable terms i.e. without constant fear of
getting caught and deported and being put on lists.

It became a matter of pride. Now I will continue to avoid USA on principle.

~~~
teh_klev
I flew to New Zealand on Air NZ back in 2005. Unfortunately there's a stop off
in LA to refuel and change crew. Everyone is taken off the plane and corralled
into a holding area with not enough seats and horribly stained walls. There is
no humour from the immigration officials who escort you through a myriad of
corridors to this zone.

Then you're marched out in batches and electronically finger printed/eyeball
scanned by more humourless uniformed officials before being deposited back in
the holding area to await your onward journey. It was a demeaning experience
and I wasn't even visiting the US. Technically I haven't entered the US, how
do they get away with that?

This contrasted heavily to my previous arrival on US soil (Boston in 2002)
which was pretty straight forward - visa waiver (I'm a UK citizen) thing
during final approach on plane and traditional show your passport procedure at
immigration and off you go.

Upon arrival in Auckland the only grilling we got was from a bunch of cheerful
bio-security folks, with a cute sniffer dog, who wanted to make sure we didn't
have any fresh food in our bags and that our footwear wasn't caked in
dirt/earth (which could potentially harbour unwanted seeds or spores).

After my 2005 experience I decided that won't be visiting the US again, I'll
stick to travelling in the EU.

~~~
Schwolop
I love New Zealand's quarantine people. Every time I visit they clean my shoes
for me!

