
TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Semiconductor Fab in U.S. - ytch
https://www.tsmc.com/tsmcdotcom/PRListingNewsAction.do?action=detail&language=E&newsid=THGOANPGTH
======
Lind5
Actually, this is true. The big question is what's going on behind the scenes.
China has been busy building up its own supply chain after the U.S. closed off
shipments of any U.S.-based R&D to Huawei last summer. It also has made
statements that Taiwan is part of China since then, which has left the U.S.
without an advanced-node fab. Intel is at least a node behind both Samsung and
TSMC, and the U.S. has no trusted foundry on U.S. soil capable of 7nm volume
production, let alone 5nm or 3nm.

For the U.S., this is a potential disaster. If China marches into Taiwan, the
U.S. will be left with no advanced-node manufacturing and it will have lost
the technology race. It would take at least four to six years to recover, and
by that time China would own the market. This is very scary for the U.S.,
which needs to develop AI chips at the most advanced nodes because density
equals more accelerators and other types of processing elements. Even that
isn't enough, which is why companies developing AI chips are stitching
together chips that are larger than a single reticle.
([https://semiengineering.com/the-risk-of-two-supply-
chains/](https://semiengineering.com/the-risk-of-two-supply-chains/))

It goes further than that, too. The DoD needs AI chips, too. In the past, the
DoD relied on older nodes. That's changed because it needs transistor density
for AI. More MACs equals more performance. On top of all of this, TSMC owns
the bulk of the fabless market. So this will happen. The big question is who's
funding this move.

~~~
fermienrico
China marching into Taiwan would be a losing move. Never mind the civil
unrest, the entire world would bail out of China. Japan, Korea, Vietnam,
Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand + India would be even more alerted than they
are right now with HK situation. The narrative in these countries is quickly
evolving. CCP is over playing their hand by engaging in asymetrical trade.

~~~
tathougies
> Never mind the civil unrest, the entire world would bail out of China.

That is not clear.. at all. Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand -- the non-
US western allies -- have all known exactly what China's end goal is and have
down jack diddly squat to put pressure on them.

The only thing preventing China from taking out Taiwan is the United States.
Europe and the rest of the world is too cowardly to even do anything, which is
really unfortunate.

~~~
type-2
Russia took crimea without any issue. Do you really think anything will happen
if china took taiwan by force? It's a matter of time before china takes
taiwan.

~~~
audunw
Another aspect of Russia taking crimea is that the people living there to a
large extent welcomed it.

There are some that are pro-unification in Taiwan, but it's a minority. Most
people are pro status quo, and the number that are for declaring independence
is growing. The ruling party is very pro-independence (ideologically speaking,
in practice they have to move slowly and maintain status quo to some degree),
meaning releasing their claim over mainland China, changing name from
"Republic of China" or "China" to Taiwan, seeking UN membership etc.

The other big difference is that Taiwan is quite capable of defending itself
to some extent. China will win eventually, but not without devastating the
island. This will affect everyone economically. China and the world. If TSMCs
factories in Taiwan are destroyed, it'd have an enormous impact on world
economy. The production of high-tech electronics would be stunted for years.
Russia annexing crimea had absolutely no practical effect on the world.

The fact is that everyone, China included, is relatively happy with the status
quo. The CCP has to make a scene now and then to appease the fragile ego of a
large portion of the mainland chinese. But I really don't think they actually
care that much about invading Taiwan.

~~~
baybal2
> Another aspect of Russia taking crimea is that the people living there to a
> large extent welcomed it.

Man, are saying this in your right mind? Where do you read this stuff?

People there abandoned their property, and ran! This is what they did.

Nobody openly welcomed it in their sane minds, besides few thousands elderly
ex-party members, and alt-right weirdos.

The fact that I hear sentiments like this in the West is the direct proof that
Russian psyops truly work.

~~~
fuoqi
I have visited Crimea last year as a tourist and talked with Crimeans
personally (in Massandra and Alushta). Where do you get your information? In
my experience people are mostly happy with the Russian rule and with changes
it brings (simply compare investments before 2014 and after). Of course, those
who work in IT, have to virtually reallocate via VPNs to circumvent western
sanctions, but they don't blame Russia for that (and VPN is a must-have either
way for tech savy due to the Roskompozor). One common complaint was somewhat
higher prices, but situation got a bit better after the Crimean bridge got put
into operation. Also another complaint which I heard is that new government is
much stricter about tax collection and preventing illegal business. Yes,
Crimean Tatars a bit less happy with the Russian rule on average compared to
ethnic Russians, but I think it mostly can be attributed to the lost profits
from illegal businesses, significant amount of which was traditionally
operated by tatars (see the issue of illegal construction). But it's important
to note that they got much more freedom in respect of cultural autonomy than
they had in Ukraine (their language is now official republican language on par
with Russian and Ukranian). Only after Ukraine lost Crimea they have started
to talk about an autonomy for Tatars, which is quite pathetic in my opinion.

~~~
lostlogin
> Crimean Tatars a bit less happy with the Russian rule on average compared to
> ethnic Russians, but I think it mostly can be attributed to the lost profits
> from illegal businesses

It’s a bit more complicated than that. The historical and relatively recent
mass starvation, persecution, mass murder and forcing into gulags is likely
relevant.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars)

~~~
fuoqi
Note that not only Tatars have died from mass starvation in 30s and 40s. It
hit equally hard Russians, Ukrainians and other ethnic groups (e.g. it had
consequences as far as in the Volga region), so Tatars (as well as Ukrainians)
weren't an exclusive target here. AFAIK Tatars weren't forced into Gulags
without proofs of collaboration with Nazi forces (the number is estimated
around 15k, which is only approximately 5% of the total Tatar population). And
while the deportation is indeed should be condemned, as the significant death
toll which was a consequence of it (though I wouldn't call it a "mass
murder"), I don't think it's correct to attribute Soviet deeds to the modern
Russia, especially considering the Russian rehabilitation law specifically
targeting Crimean Tatars.

While I will not deny that a certain amount of bad blood still exists due to
the deportation, I think most Tatars more concerned about their current
livelihood (though I have talked only with 2 tatars, so my sample size is
quite small).

~~~
lostlogin
The Wikipedia article states that 191,044-423,100 Tarters were deported,
depending on which source is used (this doesn’t mean they all went to Gulags,
but hard labour in Uzbekistan was what most did). It’s described as ethnic
cleansing and mentioning the Tarters was banned. Baria and Stalin’s actions
killed 34,000 to 109,956 Tarters during this time and 80,000 homes and farms
lay empty.

You have 2 more personal sources than I do.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_T...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars)

------
Nokinside
Important detail: This is not GIGAFAB facility.

Only 20,000 wafers per month is between mini- and megafab for TSMC. I suspect
the production goes to US defense applications. Pompeo tweeting about it seems
to confirm it.

[https://twitter.com/SecPompeo/status/1261143980634509318](https://twitter.com/SecPompeo/status/1261143980634509318)?

>Secretary Pompeo >@SecPompeo

>The U.S. welcomes TSMC’s intention to invest $12B in the most advanced
5-nanometer semiconductor fabrication foundry in the world. This deal bolsters
U.S. national security at a time when China is trying to dominate cutting-edge
tech and control critical industries.

~~~
xxs
Seems like the most of the discussion here totally missed that part - that
would be no consumer grade chips and likely the prime client would be US
military.

20k wafers (perhaps 450mm ones?) with unknown yield (likely 80ish) is quite
low. For reference AMD 5700 has die area of ~250mm.

~~~
Nokinside
I don't see how that big investment for relative low volume production would
make sense for consumer products.

If the fab is located inside the US, AMD and NVIDIA can bid for many US
government contracts that would go for Intel. After GlobalFoundries quit the
race, US defense contractors have only Intel as supplier for many components.

~~~
esmi
> I don't see how that big investment for relative low volume production would
> make sense for consumer products.

If the consumer product is a toy then sure. If it’s a medical device then it
could make sense. It’s all about margin.

> After GlobalFoundries quit the race, US defense contractors have only Intel
> as supplier for many components.

Maybe. If you want millions of chips a quarter then sure. But if you want
1000s a quarter then there are many options, depending on the node I guess.
I’m not going to Google a complete list but one obvious example is Texas
Instruments.

~~~
andy_ppp
You can seriously get small run chips made on 7nm in the US? I just don't
believe it.

~~~
esmi
Was 7nm a requirement? I didn’t gather that from the thread.

Small run 22nm is certainly available. These are fabricated in the US, albeit
at an Intel site.
[https://www.mosis.com/pages/intel_sponsored_fab](https://www.mosis.com/pages/intel_sponsored_fab)

~~~
andy_ppp
I mean the article is about them building a 5nm fab in Arizona, so i assume
they do need it if they want to build fast AI chips that compete with China
should it invade Taiwan.

~~~
esmi
What’s a fast AI chip? :)

What process node Google uses for TPU, one possibility for an AI chip, is not
in the public domain since v1 but it’s very unlikely this chip is on the
bleeding edge. Cost/benefit is likely not there for this use case. But only
Google knows for sure since they run the cloud and get to define “benefit”.

[https://www.nextplatform.com/2018/05/10/tearing-apart-
google...](https://www.nextplatform.com/2018/05/10/tearing-apart-googles-
tpu-3-0-ai-coprocessor/)

~~~
andy_ppp
As I understand it there are reasons you want to not be behind in process
technology as it makes your chips much faster. If your economy wants to keep
pace I think this is a clever decision by the US government to entice TSMC to
build a 5nm fab in the US.

------
lwneal
How much software depends on Apple, AMD, Nvidia, or Qualcomm chips? TSMC is an
indispensable part of our industry's supply chain.

Most of its chips are produced in Taiwan and over 75% are sold to customers in
either the USA or (mainland) China, so TSMC understandably tries to remain
neutral in trade disputes between the two. Tim Culpan at Bloomberg recently
predicted that this neutrality may not hold for long, and TSMC will be forced
to move some production to the USA. [1]

Especially if Intel continues to decline, increased investment by TSMC could
be good news for American chip fabs and the communities that depend on them.
On the other hand, the factory isn't built yet.

[1]
[https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-05-11/tsmc-m...](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-05-11/tsmc-
must-pick-u-s-in-chips-battle-while-intel-gets-an-opening)

~~~
Findeton
Why mention "mainland" China when Taiwan is an independent country?

~~~
nabla9
Taiwan's official position is that there is only one China and Taiwan is the
one.

>[Taiwan] considers "one China" to mean the Republic of China (ROC), founded
in 1912 and with de jure sovereignty over all of China. The modern-day ROC,
however, has jurisdiction only over Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu. Taiwan
is part of China, and the Chinese mainland is part of China as well.

Taiwan is de facto independent, not formally independent. Formally there is
still unsettled civil war going on where each side claims the whole China.

Taiwan satisfies three of the four requirements of statehood at international
law as stated in the Montevideo Convention.

~~~
audunw
There was just a proposed amendment which would change that. But it was
withdrawn. Probably because they're worried about upsetting China too much.

The current government is very pro (formal) independence. But it's a bit hard
to declare China and Taiwan to be seperate when China is threatening with
invasion.

~~~
nabla9
It does not help that US long term policy is strategic ambiguity and one China
policy as well.

The goal of ambiguity is prevent unilateral declaration of independence by
Taiwan and an invasion of Taiwan at the same time.

------
kaonwarb
Has been under discussion for some time: "Mark Liu, the chairman of TSMC, said
he had recently discussed options for a new factory in the United States with
the Commerce Department. The stumbling block was money; major subsidies would
be required, he said, as it is more expensive to operate in America than
Taiwan." ([https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/25/technology/pentagon-
taiwa...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/25/technology/pentagon-taiwan-tsmc-
chipmaker.html))

~~~
magicsmoke
What makes up the price differential?

~~~
jandrese
Having to ship the raw material halfway across the world. More stringent
environmental protections--fabs generate many tons of hazardous waste. Higher
healthcare costs for the workers. Plus they use lots of water which is more
expensive in Arizona.

~~~
magicsmoke
Considering how the low cost of shipping enabled globalization I doubt the
shipping costs matter much. I'm also not sure if environmental protections are
that much more stringent in the US than in Taiwan. Higher healthcare costs and
water might make sense, but the bulk of the water cost in semiconductor
manufacturing is probably due to the purification processes required than the
volume of water used.

~~~
Kirby64
Shipping costs matter some when you go from being right next to the factory
that makes your raw silicon wafers to having them be halfway around the world.
In general it sounds like a big factor is cost - you've got to get talent that
just doesn't exist (or isn't as widely available) in the US.

------
ChuckMcM
This would be an interesting turn of events if it came to pass. It would
certainly add good data to the argument that TSMC chips are cheaper because of
the economics of east Asia.

The geopolitical aspects are, to me at least, a bit over blown. Yes there has
been growing concern about the integrity of the supply chain for critical
resources, but that is the whole globalization problem in a nutshell. I find
the calls to re-vertically-integrate the US to not be very persuasive in terms
of practicality. Maybe if Canada and Mexico join the US in an economic union
similar to the EU? Chips are just one part of a much larger puzzle and fabs
are just one part of a supply chain that includes stops in Malaysia,
Indonesia, and Vietnam for packaging and testing.

I do think it has been made abundantly clear how interdependent the world is
these days. It is possible that the new clarity has caused some powerful
forces to reconsider their world view. But has it changed it enough to create
real and meaningful policy change? (For context, I see globalization as a
means of maximizing profits, not about politics)

To my way of thinking, real change would be the ability to economically stand
up a 100mm 5nm fab line profitably. That would allow the production of "jelly
bean" chips (general purpose < 100M gates). That would be a pretty seismic
change in my opinion.

~~~
YinLuck-
>(For context, I see globalization as a means of maximizing profits, not about
politics)

Globalization is just a euphemism for hegemony. First it was the British
Empire, then the American Empire.

~~~
renw0rp
And now is the Chinese turn?

~~~
ngcc_hk
To be honest the chinese even study its raise up and have a long tv series
about it — war is inevitable. Hence the peaceful raise of china is the slogan.
They know you do not. Nearly 20 years of sending in students, researchers,
1000 person scheme etc. They win if it is not Xi, you may not even know until
too late.

------
pascoej
This is interesting. Right now TSMC seems to provide Taiwan with guaranteed US
protection because they are so far ahead technologically. Apple, AMD, and the
defense industry have little alternative if they want a cutting edge node.
It's unclear how long they will maintain this dominance.

Maybe the long term US-Taiwan ties of factories in the US will make this worth
it strategically.

I assume that all R&D will remain in Taiwan. I think this might still be a
good move in the long run since it'll give more politicians stake in what
happens to Taiwan (Arizona senators, etc).

~~~
derefr
What does the defense industry need a cutting-edge node for? Better drone
battery life?

~~~
asdfadsfgfdda
Imagine how much processing power is needed to analyze radar signals or camera
images. If you can process more efficiently, your cooling system and
electrical generator can be smaller, which saves mass for more fuel or more
payload.

~~~
zozbot234
And they can afford to fund NRE costs that would be grossly uneconomic for
most other (niche, non-mass market) applications. There aren't many industry
sectors where that is the case.

------
dang
An earlier thread, before the official announcement, was
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23183850](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23183850).
But we've merged most of the relevant comments into this thread.

~~~
ksec
But now a lot of the comments from old thread are speculating whether the move
was right. When the actual news here is the confirmation of the move.

I find that a little confusing just reading the comments.

~~~
dang
People would be posting about that anyway. No discussion colors strictly
within the lines of the actual news; it always hops to adjacent questions
(which is usually fine) and inevitably to whatever generic themes people
associate it with (which is usually not fine:
[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20discussion&sort=byDate&type=comment)).

------
ccmcarey
Only a few days ago they were saying they had no specific plans for a US fab
([https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20200512PD202.html](https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20200512PD202.html)).

Nice that Intel will have more local competition.

------
paulgerhardt
I suspect this is the result of DARPA’s big interposer push and it’s leaking
now because of the change in leadership there.

Specifically TSMC has breakthrough CoWoS interposers, can’t meet demand, and
the military is bottlenecked without a chiplet path made in the USA.

~~~
addicted
Something like that seems to make sense considering the investment is
relatively tiny and that the factory is gonna be about 1/5th the size of the
usual TSMC factory.

So it does appear like this is intended for a specific chip for a specific
purpose.

------
Denvercoder9
Excuse the naive question, but what technology does a fab bring to the table?
As I understand it, TSMC buys most (all?) of their equipment from ASML (or a
competitor), and the chip design is done and owned by their customers. What's
left, aside from a giant cleanroom and some specialized operators?

~~~
ridewinter
Good question. There there must be something material otherwise TSMC wouldn't
have such a lead on their competitors.

------
person_of_color
I hope to see a thousand silicon startups on the West Coast. This is a great
time to join Chris Lattner at SiFive.

~~~
ane
He works there now? Cool!

~~~
person_of_color
You going to apply?

~~~
0xFFC
I will if he recruits

------
baybal2
This surreal, and this is a bombshell. TSMC is to build a second 5nm plant
outside of their strategic roadmap, and has to get money for it out of the
blue.

How will it work out with their investors, only god knows.

And this has ultimately to pass by Taiwanese government, if it didn't already.

------
ysleepy
Right next to the Foxconn plant. /s

There is precedent for fabs though, so its not totally out there.

~~~
seldonnn
Yeah Intel has quite a few I hear

~~~
arcticbull
GlobalFoundaries (ex-AMD) too. And, uh, TSMC.

------
causality0
Is this going to be a repeat of the Foxconn-Wisconsin debacle where the state
pays a company four billion dollars to buy a bunch of empty buildings and
employ nobody?

~~~
NonEUCitizen
Morris Chang != Terry Gou

~~~
georgeburdell
Morris retired a few years back

~~~
MangoCoffee
he left TSMC with a good management and more trust worthy than Foxconn.

------
jagger27
As someone else mentioned in the other thread, it's a bit odd that they're
aiming for 5nm production at this fab in 2024 because 3nm should be ready to
go by then. You'd sorta think that since they're already breaking ground on
their 3nm fab in Taiwan that any other new builds would be 3nm as well.

~~~
Exmoor
I'm not exactly a chip manufacturing expert, but:

1\. By the time this fab is in major construction a lot of the lessons learned
for 5nm will be known and can more readily be implemented in the USA without
splitting precious engineering resources to other countries.

2\. 3nm will be the most expensive parts and sell at a premium, which will
limit demand.

3\. This carries some risk, so giving up the bleeding edge tech might not be
the best idea.

------
whalesalad
Hopefully this goes better than Foxconn in Wisconsin.

------
helsinkiandrew
I thought there was an interesting point in this economist article:
[https://www.economist.com/business/2020/05/21/americas-
lates...](https://www.economist.com/business/2020/05/21/americas-latest-salvo-
against-huawei-is-aimed-at-chipmaking-in-china)

"tsmc could equip the Arizona foundry with American gear from its existing
factories, freeing space in its Taiwanese operations for brand new non-
American kit that can freely serve Chinese customers"

------
duxup
I wonder how they are going to make up for the economic reasons this isn't
generally done in the US?

------
3fe9a03ccd14ca5
At least one component of the "America First" strategy I can fully get behind
is bringing manufacturing back to the US mainline. If anything that last few
months has taught us, it's that we must not lose our ability to produce
quality, vital products. Semiconductors definitely falls into that category.

I don't care how it's accomplished, either carrots (tax incentives) or sticks
(tariffs). Do what's necessary to bring the production of these vital
components here.

~~~
sneak
Consider for a moment that less reliance upon foreign supply chains makes
{trade, cold, shooting} war more viable.

Right now the world is peaceful and I stand in North America with an iPhone 11
Pro in my pocket and an advanced Nvidia GPU in my workstation. I’m not sure I
see a problem with that state of affairs.

Reducing interdependence reduces the downside to stupid, selfish nationalistic
moves. I don’t want that at all.

~~~
trixie_
More foreign dependence makes you more vulnerable in a war, and definitely
doesn't prevent war. It makes you an easier target.

Also what you see as peaceful, others see as a stalemate unfortunately.
Hopefully it lasts.

------
rough-sea
Why are fabs being built in az?

~~~
robotnikman
Other Fabs are already located in the area, and in general the state has been
good towards businesses. Also ASU is nearby so they have a talent pool of new
engineers to pull from.

Anecdote, since I've moved to AZ myself 5 years ago I've noticed massive
growth in tech businesses in Phoenix and the surrounding areas. Cost of living
for people here is also cheaper compared to to other cities I've lived in, and
many people I've met who moved from California have told me how its cheaper
here. Commuting is not too bad depending on where you live, and there are
options which promote commuting or carpooling such as HOV lanes, Bike Lanes,
and the light-rail system (the light rail is hit or miss depending on who you
ask).

~~~
mech422
Mesa Checking In... /wave

~~~
vyrotek
Hi neighbor

------
andy_ppp
I think Europe would do well to thing about getting TSMC to build a fab in
Europe, especially as a lot of the tools are already built here.

Good to see the American government still functions in one way or another...

------
puzzledobserver
What is the environmental footprint of a typical fab? From what I understand,
modern chips are free of conflict materials, but are there toxic byproducts
which would cause trouble with the EPA?

~~~
perl4ever
Modern chips are free of conflict materials? How do you even start to come up
with a basis for the statement? I also don't understand the connection between
"conflict materials" and toxic substances. I thought it was common knowledge
that making chips involves lots of extremely toxic chemicals though.

~~~
adammunich
The amount of rare elements used to dope semiconductors is orders of magnitude
less than what's used in the capacitors next to them.

------
buildbot
They already operated design centers and the fab wafertech in Camas,
Washington.

It’s not wildly surprising, given that all major USA chip players will now be
using TSMC, including Intel.

------
lacker
It would make a lot more sense than UBI if the US would chip in part of the
salary, ie (cost of American worker - cost of Taiwanese worker), so that this
sort of factory would no longer be disincentivized just because of the cost of
American labor.

~~~
beefalo
This effectively happens already by the massive property tax incentives for
factories.

------
mcqueenjordan
This is really good news! There are also supply chain opsec implications, esp.
given the ... complicated relationship between Taiwan and the PRC.

------
lawrenceyan
Some competition with Intel in their home turf I see.

~~~
bob1029
This is an excellent strategy if you want to decimate the talent pool of your
competitors and simultaneously ramp production without having to build local
staff from zero. With some aggressive incentives, they could probably snipe a
lot of talent from across town.

Worst case, they will just fly in hundreds of existing, trained employees from
Taiwan until the local workforce is stabilized. This is how Samsung
bootstrapped their ATX factory.

------
DeonPenny
Happy to see manufacturing coming back to the US. I'm writing this before I
read the comments and have my hopes dashed

------
xmly
The high paid jobs from Taiwan and Korea are what US wants, not the low pay
assemble jobs from China. Good move!

------
shmerl
Interesting. Are they planning to use some kind of alternative energy sources
for their plants?

------
gjsman-1000
Woah ho ho, the rumors were TRUE!!!

~~~
segfaultbuserr
I was skeptical. But it's official now.

------
microcolonel
Next we need a proper embassy. No more erasure of the true Chinese Republic
with actual human rights, freedom, and prosperity for the many and not the
connected few of the few.

------
projektfu
Didn’t AMD have a big fab in Arizona once?

------
sremani
Welcome to USA. Smart Move TSMC and Taiwan. You have earned a friend for life.

For the doubters, this is just the beginning of Re-industrilization of
America.

~~~
dntbnmpls
> Welcome to USA. Smart Move TSMC and Taiwan.

They've operated in the US for a while now.

From the press release: "In the United States, TSMC currently operates a fab
in Camas, Washington and design centers in both Austin, Texas and San Jose,
California. The Arizona facility would be TSMC’s second manufacturing site in
the United States."

> You have earned a friend for life.

What a bizarre comment. If they leave, are they your enemy for life then?

~~~
product50
If you know anything about the geopolitics behind this, this was a forced move
which TSMC wouldn't have otherwise done. If TSMC didn't do it, then US State
Department would have funded Intel to produce their 5nm fabs here.

So yeah, educate yourself and then behave reasonably.

~~~
dntbnmpls
> If you know anything about the geopolitics behind this, this was a forced
> move which TSMC wouldn't have otherwise done. If you know anything about the
> geopolitics behind this, this was a forced move which TSMC wouldn't have
> otherwise done.

I know. Where in my comment did I say otherwise?

> So yeah, educate yourself and then behave reasonably.

Okay, thanks?

Did you by any chance respond to the wrong comment? Such bizarre comments in
this thread.

~~~
x86_64Ubuntu
It's rampant nationalism all up and down this thread. Facts be damned.

~~~
product50
What are the facts? That TSMC willingly and strategically made this move? The
writing was on the wall on this one.

------
sparker72678
I hope they build it across the street from Intel.

------
blhack
Someday I would really love to buy an iPhone that says "designed and built by
Apple in California"

Stuff like this is just one step closer to that. I would happily pay a premium
for it. Excellent news.

And to all of you currently looking at your rent in SF and wondering if you
should stay there now that you can work remote: AZ is a pretty awesome place,
and more and more it's looking like it actually could become a hardware hub in
the US.

To be clear on my point about rent in Phoenix, btw: I am currently sitting
about 400 yards from ASU (I live across the street from campus). I rented this
house for about 10 years for <$1000/mo (2br, 1ba, now I own it), and there are
still apartments/condos in this neighborhood for that price. We don't have an
ocean, but we have some of the most beautiful hiking in the world, the city is
extremely cycle friendly, and almost every biome you could want is a few hours
drive max from here. It's really a great city.

~~~
ABeeSea
Unless you care about the environment of course. Arizona is an unsustainable
amount of air conditioning to fight against deadly temperatures.

~~~
wollstonecraft
Is Sweden using an unsustainable amount of heaters to fight against deadly
winter temperatures? Air conditioning is much more efficient than a heater.
Arizona will usually only get more than 15 degrees warmer than a comfortable
indoor temperature. In places with cold winters, sometimes temperatures will
get more than 25 degrees cooler than a comfortable indoor temperature.

~~~
xxs
>will get more than 25 degrees cooler than a comfortable indoor temperature.

Saying comfortable to be 22-24C, 25 is just barely below zero. North Europe
standard winter conditions are far lower...

------
kick
Well that's the quickest I've ever seen reality prove itself stranger than I
could have ever imagined:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23186174](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23186174)

I'd be taking bets on how quickly this is going to turn out poorly, but my
last tiny ember of faith in any corporate actor being capable of rational
thought just got extinguished, so I could be really wrong!

~~~
product50
What a useless comment. You have no explanation and are just relying on your
ill conceived gut feeling, which has been clearly proving wrong, to say this
doesn't make sense. Why should anyone trust you?

~~~
kick
I am an Internet commentator. You don't have to trust me. That's the beauty of
Internet discussion sites!

I have an actual reason, and it's in the thread I linked, and in my reply to
another response to this comment.

The above comment was for two reasons: one, to publicly acknowledge that a
guess I had made just a small time ago was wrong (that TSMC executives were
rational actors, or if nothing else, not drastically short-sighted), and
secondly to exclaim that I still believe that this is an incredibly short-
sighted and quite frankly stupid decision.

EDIT: changed some words to be more generous to TSMC's executives.

------
salimmadjd
part of me is curious if this is a way to appease the administration due to
high pressure [0] and wait out the next election cycle. They are talking about
2021-2029.

Even if Trump is reelected, I could see them leasing an existing fab and have
a ribbon cutting ceremony for Trump to get his photo-op and then just weigh
their options with minimal additional expenditure (they've already commented
on opening a fab in US won't be economical [1]) with the thinking that a few
$million spent on a lease and avoiding antagonizing Trump might all be
worthwhile in any kind of tariffs on their business.

[0] [http://archive.is/XYzCd](http://archive.is/XYzCd)

[1] [https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/TSMC-weighs-
new-...](https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/TSMC-weighs-new-US-plant-
to-respond-to-Trump-pressure)

edited my post by adding these articles as well as editing the text to better
reference the links

~~~
selimthegrim
The thing is WI is already mad at Foxconn for doing that. AZ is even more of
swing state so I don't know if same trick will work twice

------
60secz
> This facility, which will be built in Arizona, will utilize TSMC’s
> 5-nanometer technology for semiconductor wafer fabrication

Wow Intel can't even get 10 nm working. Big win for Apple and AMD tho.

~~~
harpratap
Isn't Intel's fab always better than TSMC's? Intel 10nm competes with TSMC's
7nm

~~~
ac29
By the time Intel gets anywhere near the 10nm production volume that TSMC does
on 7nm right now, TSMC will probably already be moving to 5nm.

Its also difficult to say that "Intel 10nm competes with TSMC's 7nm" because
in so many ways, it doesnt. Ice Lake server was supposed to be out this year
with a new microarchitechture (the first since Skylake), but still is nowhere
to be seen (though it certainly seems likely the big cloud players already
have early silicon).

~~~
wtallis
Intel's 10nm as originally planned would have been superior to TSMC's original
7nm, if Intel's 10nm had actually been functional. But it didn't work and got
cancelled and what they're calling 10nm now is what would have been called
"10nm+" if they hadn't renamed their entire roadmap to cover up the failure.
I'm not sure how close Intel's _shipping_ 10nm comes to TSMC's original 7nm,
but that's rapidly becoming irrelevant now that TSMC's 7nm+ with EUV is up and
running.

------
throwawaysea
I’m excited to see a hedge against China in the form of better foreign
relations with others and a revival of domestic manufacturing.

------
chvid
I can see some American politicians are celebrating this as a blow to
(communist) China.

But is this not hurting Taiwan in a major strategic long term way? And risks
turning the whole island towards mainland.

And for the ones celebrating "Re-industrilization of America". Is the America
you envision really a America which does not have anything of importance
produced outside America. Even if outside means traditional allies such as
Germany, Japan, Taiwan ... ?

~~~
tanilama
Taiwanese people probably wish to not be strategic in a China-US battle.

That only means the destruction of that island.

~~~
chvid
Taiwan is strategic to the US-China battle because it is strategic to China;
if Taiwan reunites with China, China will have full access to the Pacific.

