
Kuwait set to enforce DNA testing law on all - privong
http://news.kuwaittimes.net/website/kuwait-to-enforce-dna-testing-law-on-citizens-expats-visitors-tests-wont-be-used-to-determine-genealogy-affect-freedoms/
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StavrosK
> will be mandatory on everyone in Kuwait in order to fight crime and
> terrorism

Anyone else tired of this excuse? Personally, I'm fine with current crime and
terrorism. My motorcycle is more dangerous.

~~~
nxzero
Try saying this to someone that disagrees and see how quickly they refuse to
agree or except any facts showing given the risks that the level of fear
related to terrorism is at the very least irrational.

~~~
jcoffland
Unless you live in one of the world's terrorism hotspots or an area with a
high crime rate. I suspect neither is common among HN readers.

~~~
nxzero
It's common enough that every time the topic comes up someone new pops up to
"explain" how I'm wrong. (See comment below)

~~~
chrischen
> Try saying this to someone that disagrees and see how quickly they refuse to
> agree or accept any facts

I'm not saying your arguments are wrong or right, but objectively speaking,
you've described yourself.

~~~
nxzero
As stated before, I'm happy to engage in a dialogue on the topic, though
please be prepared to be both logical and able to present related facts; which
to say, no, I'm not describing myself, nor do I see any reasoning presented to
back this up.

~~~
thatcat
The response that fear of terrorism is rational can be analyzed two ways, a
priori (with intuition based on "justified true beliefs") or a posteriori
(empirically, with risk assessment). The size of the risk and other empirical
evidence won't effect the opinion of someone using a priori justifications.

An a priori counter argument to supporting the consolidation of state power
would be something like the following:

Terrorism is a specific type of crime designed to generate fear and disrupt
society. Systemic responses disrupt society and generate fear and so is
aligned with the goals of terrorists. Therefore, the only logical response is
a targeted one which does not disrupt society or generate undue fear among
non-terrorists.

[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/apriori/#WhaPriKno](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/apriori/#WhaPriKno)

~~~
nxzero
What specifically to you feel in the real world based on real events are
rational responses?

~~~
thatcat
As an individual, there is not much you can do. I would say support leaders
who use empirical feed back as part of their decision making process, but that
requires those leaders making themselves an option first which wouldn't help
much in the context of Kuwait.

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middleclick
> Senior officials told Kuwait Times that the law, the first of its kind in
> the world, will only be used for criminal security purposes

Will never be used for just _criminal security purposes_. And even if the
intentions are noble - which they are not - doesn't matter because someone
else may breach the database.

~~~
secfirstmd
No doubt it will be useful for the NSA and GCHQ. I remember seeing in one of
the little publicised parts of the Snowden disclosures that African biometric
systems were being targeted...No doubt Kuwait is of significant interest to
them.

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cortesoft
If everyone has their DNA on file, and they are using it for tracking
criminals, they are going to run into the
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_positive_paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_positive_paradox).

I really wish people would consider this when advocating for widespread
dragnet-style searching for criminals. It is one thing to test the DNA of a
suspected criminal and compare it to DNA linked to the crime they are accused
of, but it is something else to take a DNA sample found and search THE ENTIRE
POPULATION for a match.

~~~
randyrand
If they search the entire population then there should be 1000s of matches.

I think they're smart enough not to incarcerate based on DNA _alone_.

~~~
cortesoft
You would think... but the FBI and US Marshals visit this house repeatedly
because it shows up as the location for unknown IP addresses
([http://fusion.net/story/287592/internet-mapping-glitch-
kansa...](http://fusion.net/story/287592/internet-mapping-glitch-kansas-
farm/)).

So, even if 1000s of people aren't being incarcerated, I can see those 1000s
of people being severely inconvenienced. They could be questioned and
harassed, and even if you are completely innocent, it is easy to mess up and
accidentally incriminate yourself
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc))

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inetsee
I guess I can rule out visiting Kuwait at any time, for any purpose, ever.

~~~
nxzero
"Why do you have something to hide?" /sarcasm

~~~
inetsee
No, but I do have my privacy to protect. I don't imagine my not visiting
Kuwait will have a noticeable effect on Kuwait's economy. But if enough people
do the same, especially entrepreneurs and businesspeople, they just might
notice.

~~~
nxzero
(Added the sarcasm tag.)

In all seriousness, 100% sure if this law applied to you that this is exactly
what someone would say.

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jpollock
This is very, very scary for a country where adultery is severely punished.

Even with a cuckolding rate of <1% (1-2% in Belgium [1]), that's a lot of
people in a population of 3.5m.

[1]
[http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/280/1772/2013...](http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/280/1772/20132400)

~~~
aianus
Tricking a man into spending 18 years and a quarter million dollars raising
another man's child is deserving of severe punishment IMO.

~~~
johansch
Another way of resolving this would be mandatory DNA tests of the parents and
the child after birth combined with destruction of the data after notifying
the parents of the results.

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aorth

      When the law (no. 78/2015) is applied, it will be binding on all citizens, expatriates and visitors too.
    

Wow.

~~~
drglitch
So will there be a required DNA sample as part of visa/border entry for
visitors and tourists?

How long until something like this is implemented in other places with Kuwait
used as "prior art" of successful implementation?

~~~
schoen
> will there be a required DNA sample as part of visa/border entry for
> visitors and tourists?

The linked article said yes.

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skennedy
Just sent a message to my sales team that all Kuwait project bids need to take
this into account. I will not force my team to accept projects that they are
not comfortable taking. The Middle East has some friction for businesses but I
imagine this will only add to the discussions.

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zimbatm
Given that the database will eventually leak, how useful will it be for
scientific research ?

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yorwba
>Q: MoI has promised not to use the test for lineage or genealogical reasons.
What are the guarantees it won’t do so?

>This has been confirmed by the law itself.

How reassuring.

~~~
CurtMonash
I'm not even sure what it means, as the article says that the DNA will be used
for paternity tests.

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orbitingpluto
Well branding your domestic migrant workers whose passport you've taken away
is a no-no. But this will help return runaways to their masters.

Universal DNA testing in a country like Kuwait is transparently oppressive.

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nxzero
>> "A Kuwaiti security delegation had earlier visited Washington to study DNA
testing systems there."

^^ Wow.

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narrator
I wonder what prompted this. Did some minister just read some article about
DNA fingerprinting in a magazine and decide that it would be really useful to
have everyone's DNA on file?

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hoodoof
Politicians around the world:

"Hey, now THAT sounds like a great idea. Can we get some draft legislation
drawn up? I know it won't go through the senate first time, but we'll just
keep trying and in ten years we'll get it."

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trhway
giving the nature of those societies, one can see how many people who possess
their status in the society and government because of long and respected
"[al|ibn]+" in their names will have that status threatened by some mid-level
agent in some security related service with access to the DNA db ... until of
course they would cooperate fully in fight to defend Motherland against
internal and external enemies.

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awqrre
How long before they start making clones of people they don't like for easy
drop-in replacement?

