
Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared - uptown
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/12/15/toxic-water-soaring-lead-levels-in-childrens-blood-create-state-of-emergency-in-flint-mich/
======
rickdale
I'm glad to see this on HN. Flint is often a forgot about place in the world.
I grew up there and now live outside of Flint. My dad was murdered there.

But I always think Flint is prime for opportunity. The people need basic
essentials, water, food, shelter. But the infrastructure to build factories is
there. Power, train lines, the whole deal. It's really a shame. The sad part
is, the people are still hell bent on supporting the companies that destroyed
the town. Michigan in general is like this, its why they don't allow Tesla
vehicle sales.

Growing up my family owned a junkyard and the Flint river ran behind it. It
was disgusting. Some of the guys would wade through it on their way two and
from work. It was a shortcut, but you had to be a true animal to go that
route.

~~~
andrelaszlo
I wanted to see what Flint looks like, so I dropped the little yellow
streetview guy randomly. I ended up on Asylum Street (!). I'm at a loss for
words:

[https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2](https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2)

[https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2](https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2)

[https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2](https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2)

[https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32](https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32)

[https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92](https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92)

[https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak](https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak) (memorial
garden?)

[https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut](https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut)

[https://goo.gl/maps/8Wx2gQ6z8up](https://goo.gl/maps/8Wx2gQ6z8up)

[https://goo.gl/maps/nAY5Kb73PkM2](https://goo.gl/maps/nAY5Kb73PkM2)

[https://goo.gl/maps/kTqzqGXQqmF2](https://goo.gl/maps/kTqzqGXQqmF2)

[https://goo.gl/maps/xWkvXRdACWR2](https://goo.gl/maps/xWkvXRdACWR2)

As a Swede, I guess I didn't really realize how bad things really got in parts
of the US. The last 50 years is just one crisis after another for this place:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint%2C_Michigan#History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint%2C_Michigan#History)

To me, there's something really heartbreaking about abandoned and decaying
houses. It's all too easy to imagine the hopes and dreams that didn't play out
they way they should have.

~~~
Lawtonfogle
>I'm at a loss for words:

Why are you are a loss for words? This doesn't look significantly different
from the town I grew up in (well near). I feel like I'm missing something.

~~~
scott_karana
In [https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92](https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92), the
first one I clicked, there is decay and overgrowth everywhere.

The death of the city's economy is completely evident in that view alone...

~~~
kbenson
Because a building burned down? It would be nice if they fenced it off, so it
shows a lack of resources, but I'm not sure that view really indicates what
you say it does.

~~~
scott_karana
Maybe that's normal looking in the rust belt, but it's unfamiliar looking to
me as well. (Can't speak for the Swede, but I suspect they're surprised for
similar reasons)

There is:

1) A burned down building (which has been in that state for some time)

2) Boarded up storefronts

3) Plants growing over the unused fences, which themselves are starting to
fall over

4) The lots behind the fences look to have been empty for decades

5) Visibly aging concrete

6) Crumbling sidewalks with plants coming up between the tiles

7) at least 3 of the 5 vehicles are from no newer than ~1998

Combine that with the overcast weather, and the bleak color palette of the
remaining buildings, and it looks pretty depressing. :(

Maybe it's not representative: maybe on a sunnier day, the greenery would make
it look lush and liveable, but as it stands it's definitely an unfortunate
looking Street View, that one...

~~~
kbenson
I'm not saying it doesn't show signs of a neglected area, I just think you're
reading too much into certain aspects which may be explained through the area
in which the picture was taken.

I'm not sure how long the building has been in that state, but I would imagine
less than a year from the vegetation, but that's hard to judge if it all dies
in winter. Then again, vegetation usually grows very quickly in those areas.
That said, small municipalities move slower, they have less leeway in the
budget to deal with unforeseen circumstances.

A lot of what you're stated seems to indicate that you see the open areas here
as a sign of neglect or failure. Often in rural areas, building are much more
spread out unless they are are towards the town center. There's no reason to
build next to someone if you can have a lot or two between you and them. As a
city expands, these are naturally filled in as sparse building pushes farther
out from the town center and some people don't want to be that far out.

As for the sidewalks and concrete, areas with wet winters that continually
fluctuate between freezing and non-freezing temperatures are particularly bad
on brick and concrete buildings. The continual expansion of the water when it
turns into ice and back into water quickly destroys concrete in these areas.
Michigan is known to be particularly bad.

In truth, looking down GlenWood Ave from that picture looks fairly pleasant to
me. This could easily be a few hundred feet in either of the towns my parents
are from in rural Wisconsin, and much of those towns looks fairly pleasant, if
extremely spread out, to my eyes.

For comparison, here's another random spot I found by just choosing a place in
google maps and zooming in[1]. Every town has some run-down areas if it's old
enough, but having a run-down area doesn't necessarily mean the economy is
dead (but I'm not disputing that the economy is likely bad, just that the
picture is more indicative of an area than a situation).

1:
[https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0188356,-83.6795166,3a,75y,1...](https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0188356,-83.6795166,3a,75y,131.39h,82.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_NmqxHmgj0Cj7koki6br_Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

~~~
scott_karana
I could absolutely be wrong about some of those! As I said, I'm not familiar
with the Rust Belt. My view is almost exclusively superficial.

------
russdill
The one thing I don't see is the lead levels of the water supply. Doesn't the
EPA have limits on that and isn't it an easy thing to test?

It is true that different water supplies will have different levels of
contaminants (lead, arsenic, etc) but can all be within EPA limits. Switching
to a water supply with a higher level of contamination will increase exposure.
The medical study seems to look at the percentage of children below 5g/dL
before and after the switch. It goes from 2% to 4%. So with the old water
supply, a certain percentage of children were already being exposed to
elevated levels of lead. Switching to a water source with higher lead levels
will push more children who are being exposed to lead through other sources to
above the 5g/dL mark. However, this would seem to indicate that the primary
source of lead for these children above 5g/dL is something other than the
water.

~~~
russdill
Hmm...reading further the problem doesn't seem to be one handled well by EPA
standards. The new water supply is more corrosive than the old water supply,
so in poorer neighborhoods with lead piping, more lead (sometimes
significantly) is being leeched from the pipes than before.

~~~
Tossrock
Why are they using lead pipes? I understand that they may have a legacy system
put in place before the dangers of lead were fully understood, but when your
water distribution system is literally made of poison, I don't understand how
replacing it could be back-burnered.

~~~
mturmon
In theory, you are right. In practice, replacement of legacy lead pipes is
more complex.

Briefly: replacing only some of the pipes can cause lead levels to increase
due to (1) disturbance of nearby lead pipes during replacement; (2) ongoing
galvanic effects near the replacement; (3) interfaces between the utility's
new lead-free lines and a customer's old lead lines, if the customer does not
choose to replace at the same time the utility does.

Point (3) is especially troublesome. Even if the utility replaces all its lead
pipes, things could get much worse for customers that don't follow suit right
away.

For (much) more:
[http://investigativereportingworkshop.org/investigations/tox...](http://investigativereportingworkshop.org/investigations/toxic-
taps/story/toxic-taps-lead-is-still-the-problem/)

All these issues are just about pipe replacement, as distinct from higher lead
levels due to pH changes or use of chloramines rather than chlorine (which was
a surprise, see
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1817707/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1817707/)).

~~~
Tossrock
Thanks, this was really informative. Makes me glad I live in California.

------
yummyfajitas
So Flint has failed to govern itself - hardly the first time - and now
children are poisoned. The city apparently now expects the rest of the country
to pick up the tab for the cleanup of their mess.

At some point it should become necessary to recognize and acknowledge that
self-government has failed and must end. I'd suggest some form of a city death
penalty - declare the city dead and give the locals a one-time offer of
relocation assistance to an approved list of better places. The city
government, and anyone who remains, are officially on their own.

We've known Flint (and many similar cities) are doomed for decades. Why do we
keep them alive as zombies rather than just help the humans and let the
municipalities die?

~~~
tptacek
The country _will_ pick up the tab for Flint, because that is how the country
works. The expectation that Michigan and then the federal government will
provide assistance isn't something Flint invented: it's part of the deal.

 _Not enough_ money flows to places like Flint. Michigan just barely ekes out
a return on dollars remitted to the IRS; they're in the bottom quartile of
benecifiaries. Meanwhile, for every $1 a Floridian pays in taxes, they receive
$4.50.

The historical reason Michigan is such a low drag on the USG has a lot to do
with the businesses Flint enabled.

This is such a straightforward point to make, and so easily Googlable, that I
feel like you have to have known it already. Some of your acerbic comments are
interesting because they bring a perspective to these discussions that I (for
one) wouldn't think to consider. This was not one of those comments.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Reread what I wrote. I didn't suggest we shouldn't help the _humans_ in Flint.
I suggested we should do so in a way that solves the problem _for the humans_
once and for all.

The comparison to Florida is silly. Florida gets a lot of money that a) is for
the national good (naval bases) and b) follows humans around (SS/medicare).
The fact that humans work in NY and retire to Florida doesn't mean that we
somehow owe Flint an infinite stream of subsidies.

I do oppose the variety of unfair subsidies that Florida does get, e.g.
bailouts after hurricanes predictably destroy cheaply made houses.

~~~
tptacek
No, once again, Florida's figure does not come from military spending.

~~~
yummyfajitas
I don't know where you are getting the data. Google suggests to me that
Florida gets $2.02 per dollar invested.

[https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-
the...](https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-
government/2700/#methodology)

In any case, the specific source of federal largess to Florida is not relevant
to my main point. Namely, help the humans rather than the municipality.

In much the same way, if it were a for-profit corporation that was failing
horribly, I'd suggest giving the former human workers limited assistance
designed to get them back into the workforce and letting the corporation die.
That would be true even if other corporations get corporate welfare (which I
also oppose).

Since you seem to favor the municipality over the humans, one might ask why?

To avoid status quo bias, lets ask why we shouldn't shift other programs to
favor municipalities over humans, e.g. social security goes to the state where
work was performed rather than the individual human who did the work?

------
a3n
> Through continued demonstrations by Flint residents and mounting scientific
> evidence of the water’s toxins, city and state officials offered various
> solutions — from asking residents to boil their water to providing them with
> water filters — in an attempt to work around the need to reconnect to the
> Detroit system.

Can you boil lead out of water, or does it just become more concentrated?

~~~
alexbock
Distillation would essentially be doing the reverse, "boiling the water out of
the lead", and that would work. But no amount of boiling in a open pot is
going to remove lead from your water.

It's hard to tell from the article, but the reference to boiling water might
have been in response to the other issue mentioned, trihalomethanes in the
water. As dissolved gases, boiling should help drive them out.

(side note: a trihalomethane is more commonly referred to as a haloform, which
is the family chloroform comes from)

~~~
darkr
Yup. Distillation should remove any heavy metal elements. It's not ideal to
consume long term, as it removes most useful minerals and results in a
hydrogen-heavy/acidic water, but it's certainly far better than consuming
lead.

~~~
alexbock
When you say that boiling results in acidic water, are you referring to the
fact that pH-neutral water would be slightly more acidic than your (slightly
basic) blood, or is this about dissolved CO2 or something else entirely?

~~~
darkr
It's due to absorbing C02 from the air whilst in gaseous form, which is then
subsequently absorbed into the blood stream after consumption.

------
nashashmi
I just took a look at the Map of Michigan. I realized after zooming into Flint
to try to understand where the water was coming from that Michigan has many,
many bodies of water scattered all around the place. Plus they are right next
to the world's biggest lakes.

And yet they never took care of their water supply? The one state with so much
fresh water has little regulation on keeping water protected.

I keep wondering why its been prophecied that the world in the end will wage
war over water, not oil. And now I am beginning to understand.

~~~
maxerickson
They are constructing a supply that will tap Lake Huron.

Lakes Superior, Michigan and Huron are not especially polluted. The little
inland lakes vary, but they end up having a lot of trouble with residential
inputs (fertilizer runoff and (historically) sewage).

~~~
kdevrou
They already had a supply from Huron before. They disconnected from it about a
year ago. Now they are hooked back up to Huron but much of the damage has
already been done.

~~~
maxerickson
They switched away from and back to Detroit as a water supplier. The switch to
drawing water from Huron is in progress:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karegnondi_Water_Authority](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karegnondi_Water_Authority)

------
ionforce
What institutional failure led to this? It seems like this has been a long
time coming. Why has the leadership of the area allowed this to happen?

~~~
paulmd
Flint's basically bankrupt and the state wants to delay the inevitable, so
they installed an "emergency manager" with all the powers of mayor+city
council (but accountable only to the governor). The emergency manager wanted
to save money by using a local source of water instead of paying Detroit for
water. The Michigan Department of Environmental Quality basically knew that
the water was so acidic that it would eat through the biofilm on the pipes and
start leeching lead (and discussed as much in emails), and gave incorrect
advice on measurements to the city to try and hide the problem.

[http://www.eclectablog.com/2015/10/interview-flint-mayor-
day...](http://www.eclectablog.com/2015/10/interview-flint-mayor-dayne-
walling-talks-about-flints-water-crisis-emergency-managers-and-the-state-
government.html)

[http://michiganradio.org/post/whos-blame-flints-water-
crisis...](http://michiganradio.org/post/whos-blame-flints-water-crisis-
virginia-tech-researcher-points-finger-mdeq)

[http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/emails_sho...](http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/emails_show_feds_told_state_of.html)

------
golergka
The fact that this kind of isse will generate publicity after just a year, and
that citizens will actually care enough to fight for their rights, and that
mayor will feel fallout because of that — it makes me feel so jealous of US.

Americans that cry about how the system "doesn't work" really don't have a
clue about how this would turn out in other countries.

~~~
Kristine1975
If the system truly worked, there would be no children with lead poisoning in
the first place. That there are places on earth where things are worse doesn't
change that.

~~~
golergka
I think that we can agree that the extent to which the system "works" is not a
boolean value.

------
artlogic
If you are interested in a detailed breakdown of everything that's been
happening over the past year or so, I would suggest reading Michigan Radio's
excellent coverage: [http://michiganradio.org/term/flint-
water](http://michiganradio.org/term/flint-water)

Full disclosure: my wife works as a reporter Michigan Radio, but generally
doesn't cover Flint.

------
jhallenworld
I've been trying to understand what the heck happened, since pH management has
been standard part of water treatment forever. I mean did they not bother to
consult with any water supply engineers first?

It all looks like a game between Emergency Managers appointed by the governor
to see who can save the most money fastest.

[http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2015/10/24/emergenc...](http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2015/10/24/emergency-
manager-law-blame-flint-water-crisis/74048854/)

------
jostmey
Someday Silicon Valley may be left in the same disarray and disrepair. Jobs
can be outsourced and bright people lured away to work on new things.

~~~
paulmd
Tech is somewhat harder to automate than manufacturing, at least.

Silicon Valley also has a bunch of top-shelf universities nearby, which are a
massive boost to local economies. The University of Michigan similarly boosts
Ann Arbor's economy.

------
cakes
This story has been building up and up for a while now, Michigan Radio has
several stories/reports/etc.

[http://michiganradio.org/term/flint-
water#stream/0](http://michiganradio.org/term/flint-water#stream/0)

------
usefulcat
Was looking at a map of Flint and noticed that the City of Flint Water Plant
is _right next to_ three metal scrap yards.

[https://www.google.com/maps/place/43%C2%B003'25.2%22N+83%C2%...](https://www.google.com/maps/place/43%C2%B003'25.2%22N+83%C2%B040'14.8%22W/@43.056993,-83.6729557,751m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0)

~~~
paulmd
It's more that Flint is an industrial town and Dow has been polluting the
river for 120 years.

It's also not direct pollution per se, it's that the river is so polluted that
it's crazy acidic and it's corroding lead out of the pipes. A compounding
factor is that it's got all kinds of funky bacteria stuff going on, which can
also accelerate the corrosion process.

------
rayiner
What led to this particular situation was apparently rate hikes in the Detroit
water system, which caused Flint to switch to using the Flint river as their
water source last year. Beyond that, water systems all over the country are in
bad shape. Because water rates are subject to public control, they are far too
low and there is a huge under-investment in water
systems:[http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/a/#p/drinking-
water/...](http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/a/#p/drinking-
water/overview)

~~~
foolrush
Subtly attempts to frame the issue as public controlled water.

A counterpoint might be that the companies with a vested interest in
privitising water supplies have lobbied to choke out the public systems of
funding.

Perhaps instead of cutting deplorable tax breaks for big business, it would be
more prudent to augment the public funds to prevent your citizens from getting
lead poisoning?

[http://www.theguardian.com/global-
development/2015/jan/30/wa...](http://www.theguardian.com/global-
development/2015/jan/30/water-privatisation-worldwide-failure-lagos-world-
bank)

~~~
rayiner
What big businesses are you talking about? Water in almost every U.S. city is
provided by a municipal utility. E.g. in Flint, it's the Utilities Department:
[https://www.cityofflint.com/public-works/water-service-
cente...](https://www.cityofflint.com/public-works/water-service-center).
Water rates are set by the city, and are just too low to cover modernization
of the systems. Both the ASCE and the EPA have reported that investment in
water systems is a fraction of what is required:
[http://geospatial.blogs.com/geospatial/2011/12/asce-
report-o...](http://geospatial.blogs.com/geospatial/2011/12/asce-report-on-
the-impact-of-under-investment-in-water-infrastructure-in-the-us-.html).

~~~
sophacles
Here's a big water utility company: [http://www.amwater.com/about-us/our-
states.html](http://www.amwater.com/about-us/our-states.html)

It's pretty common for water supply to be treated as a utility, with municipal
monopolies provided - like cable or electricity.

~~~
rayiner
Only 15% of water utilities are private companies:
[http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Po-Re/Privatization-of-
Wate...](http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Po-Re/Privatization-of-Water-
Management.html). And even, it's usually an arrangement where the city
contracts with a private company to operate its water system. The companies
don't own the system and prices are set by the municipalities.

------
elorant
The article failed to explain how the river got so toxic in the first place.

~~~
nooron
Problem is the pipes, not the river per se. When they switched water, they
didn't add an anti corrosive agent:

[http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/11/13/af...](http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/11/13/after-
flint-water-crisis-families-file-lawsuit/75744376/)

~~~
phkahler
>> Problem is the pipes, not the river per se. When they switched water, they
didn't add an anti corrosive agent

Which means there is now corrosion in a lot of old lead pipes, which means the
lead will continue to get into the water for a while. IIRC at least a few
months after they switched back and possibly longer.

------
cowardlydragon
So... Flint is the new libertarian dreamland where no regulation exists?

------
whitehat2k9
Hmm, so in addition to their existing problems with acute lead poisoning, they
now have to deal with chronic lead poisoning.

------
purephase
Does anyone know the extent that the surrounding townships would be impacted
by this? My parents live just outside of Flint, but the article only mentions
that Flint is impacted.

~~~
maxerickson
They could be. They should know if they buy water from Flint or not. If they
don't buy water from Flint, without having looked into it, I would not expect
the same pollution in ground water and the river.

It also seems to be the case that the lead is coming from residential pipes:

[http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-spotlight-
Flint_wa...](http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-spotlight-
Flint_water_FAQs_500946_7.pdf)

------
JuanaMango
If what they say about lead levels decreasing IQ is true not there is not much
left for Flint to do.

------
paulajohnson
So in ten years time someone is going to kill someone and blame it on the lead
he was poisoned with when he was a kid. What would the just result be in such
a case?

~~~
vkou
No sweat off the backs of the officials responsible for this disaster.

------
EliRivers
I particularly like the comments to that article stating that only "liberals"
believe the water supply is heaving with lead. The ridiculous political bun-
fight infects everything, it seems. It's a mental disease.

~~~
anon1385
The toxicity of lead is actually a longstanding political argument in the US.
Lobbying against lead regulation was one of the original motivations for the
development of modern american libertarianism. Even fairly recently
libertarian organisations like the Cato Institute have been fighting against
regulation of lead and against compensation for those poisoned.

When the topic of lead comes up on HN you often get comments arguing that it
isn't really as toxic as claimed.

~~~
cryoshon
But... to argue lead is nontoxic is counterfactual!

~~~
fixermark
Oh, definitely.

But being able to argue it isn't toxic enough to necessitate a change in
behavior is what makes a politician's career. Everything is toxic in the right
quantity. ;)

------
twoquestions
Why should the Michigan state government care about this? Flint is a bunch of
liberals, and the State government is Republican.

The Snyder administration will certainly pay a heavy price for "giving free
handouts" to the Democrats in Flint, all to remedy a problem that many
Republicans don't believe exists.

EDIT: wording

~~~
TheGirondin
What is more toxic: Flint's water or this comment?

