
On Geeks and Gays  - bootload
http://newstilt.com/notthatkindofdoctor/news/on-geeks-and-gays
======
caryme
As a gay geek, I found myself drawn to Turing's story - a tragic story of
(probably) unrequited love as a schoolboy, a heroic story of a great thinker
and war hero, and a heart-wrenching story of humiliating rejection by the same
country he served.

I'm surprised JGC was assumed to be gay for standing up for Alan Turing, but
proud that he handled the assumptions well. From our perspective, Turing's
story is so much bigger than his sexuality. But to the common person, who
likely knows little to nothing about Turing beyond what the news says - that
he was convicted of homosexuality by his country - this advocacy appears to be
one for gay people.

Thank you, Mr. Graham-Cumming, not just for standing up for Turing, but for
simply explaining you are not gay without getting defensive. Too often,
straight men handle being assumed as gay as a terrible and dehumanizing
accusation.

~~~
CWuestefeld
Likewise. I think that JGC's campaign (a) shows us what it really means to be
without prejudice; and (b) reveals that others in the business of civil rights
persist in viewing the world through those same old goggles.

That said, I think that JGC breaks from this in the essay. He says:

 _as a geek I empathized with the idea that being different from some societal
norm brings enormous pain._

To me, that destroys, at least partially, the idea of a completely independent
bystander fighting for truth. It brings us, at least partly, back to someone
campaigning for a fellow in his own group -- it's just that the dimension JGC
chose to sort by is different from the one that most of society would choose.

I wish John had simply said _because Alan Turing’s treatment was wrong_ and
left it at that.

------
tsally
A thought: Alan Turing died when he was 41. Anything Turing would have
invented between 41 and his natural death are things lost to society because
of the persecution of homosexuals. What an incredible cost.

~~~
axod
You make it sound like he was murdered because he was gay. I don't think it
was quite that clear cut.

I'm quite a believer in "if he hadn't done it, someone else would have"
personally. I don't mean to belittle anyones contribution, but the idea that
there's only one genius who can come up with something seems very unlikely to
me.

Most inventions are 'discovered' by many people at around the same time.

~~~
devinj
Other people did do it, and even at nearly the exact same time. Turing just
did it more convincingly. (See: Alonzo Church and the Lambda calculus).

~~~
eru
And Turing helped a lot with the War effort, building hardware (i.e. stuff you
can kick) as well as developing theories.

~~~
devinj
+1. Yeah, I was only thinking of his work on computation (not even AI!). I
should have been more clear.

------
mpk
I'd say that geeks tend to think about their environment a lot more than other
people because geeks tend to think about systems in general.

I have never encountered a rational argument for homophobia. Gay people seem
to me to be just as likely to be virtuous or decadent as straight people.

Discriminating against people for having a different sexual orientation seems
totally irrational to me. As far as I'm concerned, 'gay rights' generally
equate to 'human rights' and you can sign me up for supporting those any day.

~~~
j-g-faustus
I've always thought that [gay | labor | women's | black's | etc] rights all
collapse to merely human rights, and find it curious that we see the need to
carve it up in a whole bunch of special cases.

~~~
caryme
That's just the thing. If we could realize that it's the same issue over and
over again, perhaps it would become less of an issue. If only.

In US-parlance, all men are created equal.

We said that right off the bat. Once we decided that by _men_ , we meant
_people_ , what further argument is there to have? All means all.

~~~
xenophanes
Let me know when you realize that 4 year olds are people too, and should have
full human rights.

If you won't accept that case, then you're part of the problem that doesn't
see it's the same issue over and over.

~~~
jacquesm
Some of the human rights are conditional upon whether or not the person they
are applied to is 'of age' or not.

There are some inconsistencies but they've definitely managed to avoid most of
them.

~~~
axod
... and sound mind. Which may rule out women.

(JOKING).

------
sophacles
This is just odd to me. It never even occurred to me that the sexuality of a
person running a campaign like that would matter. I mean, its Turing -- a name
most known for inventing the freaking computer. Sure there is the whole "gay
angle" and it being the _reason_ for the treatment -- but I figured the
campaign was more about, lets clear this _extremely important historical
person's_ name, and for Britain to admit the world had been done an injustice.

I guess I'm sadder that in the world I live in such a thing matters so much,
than I was that bad things were done to Turing.

So jgrahamc: FWIW I just figured you were some guy who was more annoyed than
me over the Turing thing, and better positioned to make a fuss over it, and
for that: good on you. Were I asked, I would have assumed your sexuality is
straight, but thats just playing the odds, as I don't know or care who you
screw.

~~~
ErrantX
I'm only guessing but my thinking on how the thought process went was..

People wondered why he was sticking up for Turing in particular - a lot of
people have been abused by the government (and society) in the past. They
wondered if he had a certain interest in this specific case; and they falsely
assumed it was an issue of sexuality, forgetting that Turing was a geek too :)

------
bootload
_"... When I was a teenager at school I definitely did not fit in. I had
glasses, was awkward, brainy, wore the school uniform because I had no idea
what else to wear, and suffered insults from my classmates. One of these was
the frequent and common slander “poof” (which is probably the closest thing to
the American term “fag”).

I was either ignored, or verbally abused, or physically assaulted. In one
attack two boys pinned me down and asked me the incongruous question: “Do you
prefer music or art?”. “Art” after all was something only a poof would like.
..."_

Cripes @JGC I feel for you mate. The self description as a student could fit
any reader here. There but for the grace go I - except I was probably bigger &
uglier than yourself.

Anyone who wants a quick understanding of the mechanics of bullying and ways
to circumvent it, take a peek at _"Hacking People"_ ~
<http://bootload.posterous.com/hacking-people> and some thoughts on
identifying Cyber Bullies ~ <http://seldomlogical.com/2010/03/13/hacking-
bullies>

~~~
elblanco
Thanks for the links. While I _was_ part of an "out" group growing up, I
managed not to get bullied much (it usually stopped quickly after a round of
fisticuffs and my father being a boxing coach in his youth). But a great many
of my friends were bullied, some horribly. I've never been able to understand
the mechanics of it very well even after having seen it so many times.

~~~
bootload
_"... I was part of an "out" group growing up, I managed not to get bullied
much (it usually stopped quickly after a round of fisticuffs and my father
being a boxing coach in his youth) ..."_

Excellent stuff, go boxing. There's a lot to say for standing up for yourself.

 _"... But a great many of my friends were bullied, some horribly. I've never
been able to understand the mechanics of it very well even after having seen
it so many times. ..."_

Observing body language should probably be a taught subject in school ~
[http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/spycatcher/201004/what-e...](http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/spycatcher/201004/what-
every-parent-should-teach-their-child-about-body-language)

An understanding of body language might allow you to see peoples intentions
before they give off overt intent. If you want to understand more about
decoding & understanding behaviour, talk to <http://twitter.com/navarrotells>
or get a copy _"Louder than words"_ or _"What Every Body is Saying"_ ~
<http://jnforensics.com/Books_%26_Videos.html>

~~~
elblanco
I agree, most of the time when I got into a fight in school was because I
wasn't paying attention to the aggressive body language of my challenger. When
I did notice it, I found I was usually able to talk myself out of the fights
by simply taking what the guy was saying and turning it back on him. It
defused the immediate situation because it prevented the bully from amping
himself up.

One incident in middle school permanently ruined the reputation of a would-be
bully since all he knew how to say to start a fight was "common man, let's
go". To which I responded "okay, sounds great, where to?" He repeated his
statement over and over while I repeated mine. Eventually, it defused the
fight. I think he simply didn't know how to respond when I didn't back down
and simply took what he was saying absolutely literally instead of as the
slang he meant. It also happened in front of a crowd and all through middle
and high school was ribbed as the guy who couldn't figure out where to go. He
used to get a few compasses at the beginning of every year and offers to help
him find his way to class.

------
merraksh
No matter how natural and necessary this might be, it doesn't happen very
often that someone fights for a group he/she doesn't belong to. Hats off once
more to JGC for that.

------
dinde
I love these things, as a gay coder I get to feel special and like I'm
representing my kind with my views. ;) In my experience, it's not geeks
specifically that are more accepting, but educated people in general. It seems
obvious but I think that's all it is.

------
RyanMcGreal
All in all, a great essay. But:

>I’m conflicted about whether gay couples should be allowed to adopt.

Why on earth shouldn't a gay couple be allowed to adopt?

~~~
natrius
If the demand for adoption outstrips supply, and if (big if) a man and a woman
parent substantially better than two people of the same gender, it might make
sense to have a blanket preference for heterosexual couples when choosing
parents. There could be something innate in each gender that contributes to a
child's upbringing, and depending on the value of those traits, it could be
responsible to maximize the number of children who benefit from both.

~~~
caryme
I realize this is an explanation for the argument against same-sex couple
adoption, but in the same vein I'd like to point out that where this argument
falls apart is in the legality of single parent adoption.

In the US, it is legal in every state for single parents to adopt. However, in
some states it is illegal for same-sex couples to adopt children.

For the real kicker, in Florida (where I am from), homosexual _people_ cannot
adopt. So while a single straight woman can adopt a child, a single lesbian
woman cannot.

~~~
natrius
I was being excessively charitable in my framing of the argument. It makes
zero sense for it to be _illegal_ for gay people to adopt. It could make sense
to _prefer_ straight couples over gays _and_ singles, which would effectively
exclude them if the demand for adoption outstrips supply as much as I presume.

~~~
joubert
Why? What magical quality does a straight couple bring to the table? Are they
innately less dysfunctional than a gay couple?

~~~
devinj
Magical quality? Well, 2 genders instead of one. I don't find the idea that
children take their cues depending on the gender of the parent at all
unreasonable. It's certainly entered the common mind as an idea of what
happens. Is it true? No idea, haven't seen any research on it. But there's at
least a possible basis for the "magical" quality of gender being important.

~~~
joubert
I'm skeptical. What cues? Are you thinking a girl learns how she should act by
emulating a mom, and the same for a boy in relation to his dad?

~~~
tsally
Here's the logic of a non-homophobic argument I have heard of. The majority of
research on parenting and raising children has been done with heterosexual
parents as a base assumption. Someone who is extremely supportive of gay
rights who is also a rational thinker might be cautious when considering the
issue of adoption by homosexuals. Why be cautious? Because it is necessary to
take reasonable measures to guarantee the children will be raised
appropriately. It is a human right of the children. In American society we
place an especially high value on protecting the rights of people who cannot
defend themselves, including children and the disenfranchised. Yes,
homosexuals are a disenfranchised group as well, but there are homosexuals who
serve openly in Congress. It's not quite on the same level as children, who do
not yet have the ability to speak English.

I'm not up to date on the literature regarding child development. It may be
that there are studies that suggest that homosexual families are no different
than heterosexual families in terms of impact on the child. I'm just throwing
this argument out there because it is one of the few non-homophobic arguments
against homosexual adoption that I know of. I don't personally have an opinion
on this issue because I'm not qualified.

~~~
joubert
So, if i get a surrogate and we have a child, and my gay partner wants to
adopt the baby so that we are both legal parents, surely it make no sense to
deny the adoption?

~~~
jacquesm
I don't think that holds water. Gay rights are great, but childrens rights are
greater. If there is any doubt about the rights of either group being
infringed on by 'experimenting' then you have an immediate problem because
nobody will sign off on experimenting on children to see if in the long term
it will matter or not.

If there would be large numbers of cases proving that it essentially makes no
difference then that would help, but you're in a chicken-and-the-egg
situation.

I know of one gay couple in my circle of friends that would like to adopt a
child and they've come to the conclusion that they themselves can't come to a
100% agreement _between the two of them_ about what that responsibility
exactly entails. It was a very eye opening discussion, because I think I went
away a changed person, essentially form going to saying 'I don't see why not'
to 'maybe it really is better, who knows'.

For me that's a weird thing because when I thought about this before I always
thought that gay people would not 'overlap' with straight people on this issue
but would be on the far side of a barrier that you can not cross because you
can not imagine what it is exactly like to be gay when you are not.

This is a very complex issue, societal pressures are such that simply being
raised as the child of two gay parents puts undue pressure on a child (for
instance peer pressure), and that can cause serious damage. That's the sort of
argument that they went on about and I had never even thought of it from that
angle.

~~~
joubert
So you're saying my gay partner should not be allowed to adopt my biological
kid to provide a stable legal environment?

In another scenario, isn't it better for a gay child in foster care to be
adopted by gay parents than by straight parents?

When you say "peer pressure", is that just a euphemism for bullying?

~~~
jacquesm
> So you're saying my gay partner should not be allowed to adopt my biological
> kid to provide a stable legal environment?

The situation I had in mind was two gay people without children adopting a
child.

> In another scenario, isn't it better for a gay child in foster care to be
> adopted by gay parents than by straight parents?

That would probably be a good thing.

------
johngalt
Odd, I made no assumptions about jgc's sexuality. I guess I assumed he was
straight if anything. Just one geek rising in defense of another.

------
seldo
Would it be unbecoming of me to suggest that some readers of this thread might
be interested in visiting <http://GayGeeks.org>? It is a not-for-profit side
venture of mine.

~~~
caryme
Thanks for that. Just joined with the same username.

------
jonpaul
Kudos to this guy. It's sad that many people in society are myopic and think
that this guy was gay. As stated, I think it's simply a case of one geek that
was persecuted standing up for a fellow geek. The world needs more people like
this guy.

------
kajecounterhack
I feel similarly as a gay-affirming Christian. Standing up for equal treatment
of people doesn't make a person gay.

~~~
lallysingh
I donno about you, but I never thought the author was. I wonder how many
people here did.

------
neodude
It's nice to see so many gay geeks 'come out' on this thread. I had assumed I
was the only one. Sexuality is such an infrequent topic on HN.

~~~
jacquesm
> I had assumed I was the only one.

That's strange then because there are plenty of people here that have stated
openly and without reservation that they are gay or transgender.

In a population of this size you should be _very_ surprised if you are the
only gay person.

~~~
thingie
While it would be very surprising to actually be the only one, it's not
surprising to _feel_ as the only one. It's quite reasonable to believe that a
randomly chosen person is not gay, so you can't just pick someone and think,
he is too, fine, I'm not alone. Statistics are not enough, real concrete
persons count.

~~~
jacquesm
Given the size of the HN population you could expect 100's to 1000's of people
to be gay. It's true that the distribution is such that the chance that
someone is gay is low but if you approach 10 people your chances are better
than even that at least one of them is gay.

Quite a few of them are 'out' in public, google can help you out there.

------
DanielBMarkham
John -- congratulations in your quest. I never understood it and even after
reading your description don't understand it. Turing had a great mind, but
there are a plethora of people with great minds who were killed by society in
some fashion or another because of being different. The Holocaust comes to
mind. We could take up reams of paper with people treated just like Turing.
What real impact does this have aside from making people feel like they did
something of value? I really do not understand -- but that's not important.

Obviously this was great for both you and your supporters. I can respect the
fact that everybody has different motivations and values, some of which are
fathomless. So while I can't share your joy, I can be happy for you.
Congratulations in accomplishing your goal!

------
drivebyacct
Well I read two lines and stopped: "I’m not, so what was it that drove me to
stand up for a gay man?"

Is that a serious question? Who the hell wouldn't stand up for a man who was
chemically castrated for being a homosexual. I mean, what reasonable non-
crazy-fundie person would _support_ that?

Wow, I kept reading:

"Many of those people who wrongly assumed I was gay would probably be
surprised to learn that I campaigned for Alan Turing despite having my own
discomfort with homosexuality. I don’t have clear thoughts about whether gay
marriage or civil partnerships are better; I’m conflicted about whether gay
couples should be allowed to adopt."

Seriously? This is worthy of being the top article on HN. _Shudder._ Not
rhetoric I'm proud of in the least.

~~~
sophacles
Honestly, I'm more impressed with someone campaigning for what is logically
right (even tho they have emotional hangups) than I am with someone who
follows their emotions for the "right thing" but can't explain why it is
right. The latter is just a result of luck.

I have had my own stupid emotional discomforts. None of them were logical, but
all of them were easier to deal with when I was open about it. Get off your
high horse.

Edit: strike that "get off your high horse" bit, its too reactionary of me --
sorry about that.

~~~
drivebyacct
I suppose. I just don't like the fact that the article _exists solely_ based
on the premise that a nonhomosexual has to justify speaking up for a
homosexual.

It's that precise dichotomy and separation that we need to be moving away
from, not framing entire blog posts about.

~~~
caryme
I mean, I don't like it either, but it's not at all uncommon for straight men
to avoid standing up for gay men for fear of being perceived as gay.

I don't see the article as a defense of JGC's sexuality in any way, but as a
challenge to stand up for justice even of those who are different from us.

