
Are Fats Unhealthy? The Battle Over Dietary Guidelines - OrwellianChild
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/13/upshot/are-fats-unhealthy-the-battle-over-dietary-guidelines.html
======
smtddr
This is the most important part of the article:

 _> >"We know much less for sure than we think, and recommendations that
forcefully tell people exactly what and precisely how much they should or
should not eat can be counterproductive."_

Unless you have a very acute and well defined health issue like diabetes or
severe allergy, people who try to sell you on diet-absolutes are full of
nonsense or trying to sell a product.

~~~
chillwaves
Then why are we facing society wide epidemics with Diabetes type 2? Certainly
there must be some change in the way we live and eat that is responsible, that
could be corrected. Your argument leaves no room for such a correction.

~~~
rhinoceraptor
The facts are pretty clear, people started eating less fat and more carbs, and
more calories in the 70s [1]. All of this at the behest of the nutritionists,
doctors, and scientists.

The bad science and dogma is still kicking, but I'm optimistic it will be gone
within the next 5-10 years.

[1]:
[http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/figures/m304a3f1.gi...](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/figures/m304a3f1.gif)

Source:
[http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5304a3.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5304a3.htm)

~~~
atomical
Actually, type 2 diabetes is linked to a diet high in saturated fat.

~~~
yourapostasy
Please give the cite(s) for that assertion, I'd like to review them.

Among the Type 2's aggressively treating their metabolic disorder (a
significant fraction whom drop out of Type 2 biomarkers and can stop taking
medication, and are re-classified as insulin resistant at worst),
overwhelmingly the diet used is various degrees of low carb, with some
experimenting with various fasting regimens mixed in. As long as total caloric
intake does not exceed one's TDEE, so far it seems daily high saturated fat
consumption (like some ketogenic diets) doesn't adversely impact blood sugar
nor cholesterol metrics; some advocate not subjecting the saturated fats to
overly-intense heat before consumption, but actual quantity (within reason)
seems immaterial as long as the carbs are cut down to fractions of what is
"normally" consumed by everyone else. Sweden's national health system has
collated a lot of this research and is doing a lot of their own original
research; they have recently come out officially in favor of low carb.

~~~
atomical
[http://nutritionfacts.org/video/why-is-meat-a-risk-factor-
fo...](http://nutritionfacts.org/video/why-is-meat-a-risk-factor-for-
diabetes/) [http://nutritionfacts.org/video/lipotoxicity-how-
saturated-f...](http://nutritionfacts.org/video/lipotoxicity-how-saturated-
fat-raises-blood-sugar/) [http://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-causes-
diabetes/](http://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-causes-diabetes/)

> As long as total caloric intake does not exceed one's TDEE, so far it seems
> daily high saturated fat consumption (like some ketogenic diets) doesn't
> adversely impact blood sugar nor cholesterol metrics;

The diet does adversely effect cholesterol metrics. Take a look at the posts
with lipids on /r/keto. Their cholesterol drops a bit because they lost
weight, but most of them are still in the danger zone.

I'm sure you've heard of Loren Cordain, one of the leaders of the paleo
movement. He is credited as an author on a paper[0] that comes to the
conclusion that 50-70mg/dl of LDL is the true optimal. You can't achieve that
eating a diet rich in cholesterol.

[0]
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15172426](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15172426)

> Sweden's national health system has collated a lot of this research and is
> doing a lot of their own original research; they have recently come out
> officially in favor of low carb.

Could I get a citation for that? I thought they only recommended low carb in
specific situations. Why would someone who isn't obese or diabetic go on a
keto diet?

~~~
yourapostasy
There still seems to be questions about the lipid hypothesis.

[1]
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18615352](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18615352)

The context of the SBU finding for low carb was indeed for low carb and Type
2's; when I mentioned that I was still in the context you brought up of Type
2's.

[2] [http://www.dietdoctor.com/swedish-expert-committee-low-
carb-...](http://www.dietdoctor.com/swedish-expert-committee-low-carb-diet-
effective-weight-loss)

There is a lot of discussion on /r/keto and other keto forums about high
cholesterol numbers, and it seems we need to perform more research. Because
some (not all) longer-term (longer than a year) keto dieters are finding that
their cholesterol numbers went down after staying elevated for awhile; one
hypothesis is that the high numbers are from the release of cholesterol from
breaking down fat stores.

[3] [http://bjjcaveman.com/2013/03/10/the-effect-of-a-
ketogenic-d...](http://bjjcaveman.com/2013/03/10/the-effect-of-a-ketogenic-
diet-on-cholesterol-part-1/)

Thanks for sharing the links, appreciated.

------
bitL
Some vitamins (A, D, E, K) are fat-soluble, so good luck not eating any fat
and significantly increasing your risk of getting cancer. A lot of people have
problems absorbing vitamin D from food on their own; helping them even more
with low-fat food is wonderful /s. Also, milk from properly fed cows contains
conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), aka Tonalin, which helps weight loss, despite
being a kind of trans-fat, which we all know is dangerous /s.

I am always puzzled while in the States that I can't buy anything non-low fat
and barely a single brand of unsweetened yogurt even in Whole Foods; it feels
like I am forced to buy only inferior food over there, guys. I then imagine
your food industry extracting most of beneficial fat from milk products and
selling you supplements containing those ingredients for significantly higher
price...

~~~
gorena
> barely a single brand of unsweetened yogurt even in Whole Foods

Huh? My Whole Foods has Fage (the best, IMO), Siggi's, Wallaby, and more.

Like this:
[http://images.costcobusinessdelivery.com/image/media/350-824...](http://images.costcobusinessdelivery.com/image/media/350-824383__1.jpg)

~~~
bitL
Total 0%

------
jimrandomh
> The committee concluded that existing reports argue that replacing saturated
> fats with polyunsaturated fats seems to reduce the risk of cardiovascular
> events and mortality.

"Polyunsaturated fat" is a bad category; it includes both omega-3 (generally
considered good), omega-6 (generally considered bad), and omega-9 (generally
neutral). Statements about polyunsaturated fat which fail to distinguish these
have no possible hope of being correct.

~~~
bad_user
Except that this is reductionist science at its best. There's not enough
evidence to conclude that omega-6 is considered bad for our health.

What may be important is _the balance_ between omega-3 and omega-6 in one's
diet, with omega-6 ending up having negative consequences when one ingests too
much simply because those same people aren't ingesting enough foods with
omega-3.

Basically when speaking of food, humans have a finite capacity to eat, so if
you eat too much of something, then you eat less of something else.

This may be the case for vegetables versus meat. It's generally accepted that
too much meat is bad for our health, but the cause is completely unknown. And
it's certainly not the fats, as we've been led to believe. Eating too much
meat may be unhealthy simply because those people aren't eating enough
vegetables.

Want to bet that in 4-5 years tops the current beliefs with those fatty acids
will be turned on its head? There's no science that has failed us more than
nutritional science. Pick any cult, any religions, any of the superstitions
that have survived for hundreds or thousands of years and you've got something
healthier than nutritional science because people have survived those cults
and superstitions, yet it's becoming clear that nutritional science is
responsible for the obesity epidemics ;-)

------
the_watcher
The frustrating part of these articles is how they tend to ignore that diet
and exercise are intrinsically linked. Live a sedentary lifestyle? Limiting
fat (and general caloric intake) is the right move. Work out intensively for
an hour daily? You almost certainly aren't consuming enough fats.

~~~
OrwellianChild
Well, there's additional nuance here... Caloric intake is made up of 3
principle inputs: carbohydrates, fat, and protein. The recommended daily
allowance of each is in balance, so if you eat fewer carbs, you have to eat
more fat or protein to reach your caloric intake.

U.S. governmental regulations have long discouraged fat intake, replacing
those calories largely with carbs. This was based on the assumption that the
_fats_ were harmful, rather than _extra calories in general_. The article is
highlighting a change in understanding that will hopefully have us stop
demonizing fats in favor of carbs in a diet that is otherwise within bounds
_calorically_.

In short, we know now that it is not necessarily bad to eat fats (anymore than
it's bad to over-eat in general).

------
afarrell
If you enjoy the author's writing, he has a YouTube channel here:
[https://m.youtube.com/#/user/thehealthcaretriage](https://m.youtube.com/#/user/thehealthcaretriage)

~~~
gdrulia
Desktop url:
[https://www.youtube.com/user/thehealthcaretriage](https://www.youtube.com/user/thehealthcaretriage)

~~~
OrwellianChild
Lots of well-researched, clearly explained science here. He doesn't shy away
from the terminology (randomized, controlled trials, etc.) but also offers a
more accessible breakdown of the implications of research...

------
the_watcher
> Why Butter, Meat and Cheese Belong in a Healthy Diet

I sometimes feel like at least a third of the resistance to ideas like fat is
ok is based in a deep-rooted belief drilled into us by fad diets that eating
healthy can't also be delicious.

~~~
atomical
I think that modern fad diets tell us that our bad habits are good. Who
doesn't want to be told that they should eat cheese, bacon, and steak all day
long?

~~~
mobiuscog
But they're only 'bad' habits because previous fad diets told us that.

~~~
atomical
Dietary cholesterol is bad for you.

~~~
the_watcher
Literally no evidence to support that.

~~~
atomical
[http://nutritionfacts.org/video/egg-cholesterol-in-the-
diet/](http://nutritionfacts.org/video/egg-cholesterol-in-the-diet/)

Literally? Or imaginatively?

------
Retric
I really question how controlled these diets where. It's one thing to keep
someone in a controlled environment select specific foods, but suggestions to
eat in a specific way for long periods of time seem largely untenable.

~~~
frofroggy
Suggestions to eat in a specific way for long periods of time seem even more
untenable when the predominant way of meeting the guidelines is manual guess-
and-check, and at worst guess-and-check-and-ignore.

------
tracker1
Averaging your intake over the course of a week.. try to get 60-100g protein
per day (can get more if trying to build lean muscle, that's a minimum for
most). Stay under 100g sugars, and try to keep a total glycemic load under
100/day. Keep your daily calorie average appropriate for your desired lean
body weight. Try to get 5% more activity in each week, unless you are at a
maintenance point.

Get a variety of foods (fruits, vegetables, meats, etc), and avoid what causes
you problems with digestion...

That's hard enough without going into too many specifics and would generally
serve people better in general. Once you get your needed protein in, for the
most part, calories are a wash... excessive sugars/carbs causes other problems
over time. But trying to say you can have X and not Y is a path to failure for
most.

Also, trying to keep it on a daily basis doesn't always work so well either...
if I get a few days a week that I have a longer fast cycle (eating once a
day), I tend to do better... But it's a matter of keeping your overall intake
in relative check without dwelling on any particular piece.

Eat food, avoid processed foods, eat veggies and fruits, get a variety, don't
eat too much... it's not all that hard, but that's not how people think...
we've also got generations of snacking, sugary drinks, and carb/sugar laden
food supplies.

