
Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons) - selenamarie
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassme.html
======
powrtoch
I wasn't sure what to think of the red/yellow cards when I first heard about
them, but the suggestion that it should be bystanders them giving out is
_awesome_. Everything we know about human psychology suggests that a
disapproving peer group is a _strong_ behavioral deterrent.

~~~
RivieraKid
Honestly, I find the cards incredibly weird. I can imagine a class of 10-year-
olds using them, but adults?

~~~
boredguy8
When adults are acting like 10-year-olds, maybe it's the perfect solution.

~~~
RivieraKid
I think that's true only for a small minority...

~~~
writtles
It's only ever a small minority that needs the correction.

~~~
RivieraKid
The card system is like dropping a nuclear bomb on Baghdad just to kill Saddam
:)

------
brianjyee
Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double
standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to
aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the
initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual
harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who
succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's almost as if when the girl is
attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual
harassment. I wish it weren't like this because I, personally, am not very
aggressive.

I'm not trying to defend the behavior described in the article, I'm just
saying that men act like that because it works.

~~~
mindcrime
_It's almost as if when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but
when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment._

Yep, and that makes it incredibly hard to be a guy. You're almost "damned if
you do, damned if you don't" when it comes to flirting and initiating things.
Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to know - in advance - how someone is
going to react.

That said, there _is_ a line somewhere, of behavior that is never appropriate
towards someone that you don't already have an established relationship with.
Asking a random female (or male, for that matter) to "come up to my room for a
pillowfight" is just stupid in almost every conceivable context.

~~~
Symmetry
The line is going to vary depending on the personality of the person you're
trying to flirt with and how attractive they find you. That's just the way it
is. This is why you flirt in a civilized manner first, and look for signs that
they are or are not interested. And if you're paying attention you ought to
notice if you make them uncomfortable, and apologize.

~~~
mindcrime
_This is why you flirt in a civilized manner first, and look for signs that
they are or are not interested._

Yeah, it's easy enough to simply be polite, throw out some _very_ casual
flirting, and the see if the other person responds in kind. If they don't,
don't try to escalate the encounter. Somehow this seems to escape an awful lot
of people for some reason...

~~~
Symmetry
Yup. Geeks (male and female) can be dense about flirting at times, though. I'd
like to think that I'm more perceptive nowadays, but when I was a sophomore in
college I was asked out and taken on a date without realizing it, for
instance. So be aware that they might just be really enjoying the conversation
and not realizing that you're trying to flirt. Which doesn't even mean they
wouldn't be happy to flirt back if they realized how things were! So again,
just always be willing to revise your assumptions about the situation, and
always be polite and be ready to back out if you misread things.

------
danielweber
Nerds (and I say this as one) have problems dismissing their anti-social
members, because nerds have been dismissed from other social circles, and
hated it. They don't want to be the bully. And so real asshole behavior is
allowed to continue _far_ longer than it ought to.

The computer security industry has its own special problems. There is a very
significant segment of the population that has "do whatever you can get away
with" as their mantra and have built up significant antibodies against any
criticism thanks to a large crowd of enablers.

Who was the last person who was shunned from the community for his behavior
and/or actions?

~~~
minikites
<http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html>

"GSF1 is one of the most common fallacies, and one of the most deeply held.
Many geeks have had horrible, humiliating, and formative experiences with
ostracism, and the notion of being on the other side of the transaction is
repugnant to them."

~~~
Zarel
See also: <http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/>

------
blhack
It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the
events themselves.

How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con?

Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are _offended_ at the idea
of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless,
and need somebody to swoop in and save them.

That, at least to some of my girl friends, is utter bullshit, and is blatantly
sexist against women.

\--

And to be completely honest, the red/yellow card thing has _already_ become a
flirtatious joke among people.

~~~
FuzzyDunlop
From a feminist perspective, it's not very empowering to a woman to have to
resort to props and other crazy schemes to get unscrupulous men to fuck off.
Men don't have to do it, why should women.

I think it'd be helpful to identify _why_ this problem exists in the tech
field. Is there a chicken and egg situation where more women in tech would
solve these problems, but something about tech prevents more women getting
involved?

~~~
agpen
THIS is what prevents more women from going into tech fields. From academia to
the workplace, IT/CS has been built into a self-reinforcing boys club. Until
on a large scale it is no longer socially acceptable for geeks to treat women
like shit, there won't be many women in technical fields.

~~~
s_baby
Proof? Some research suggests women are turned off from the "hard" sciences
before they reach high school.

It's likely a factor but you're putting the cart before the horse.

~~~
demewmew
I think what agpen is trying to say is, "Statements like this are offputting
to some people [women] who want to participate in tech." That's going to vary
by the individual, but acknowledging that these statements have an offputting
effect is proof in itself. Most people reading those statements aren't going
to step in and say "this makes me not want to participate," because they know
they won't be taken seriously. So instead they just leave.

~~~
s_baby
Your statement is more sensible and on the fence. She's implying men are the
root of women's problems in tech. That there is a conspiracy to marginalize.

Women have broken into countless so-called "boys clubs". Doctors, lawyers,
marketing, etc... How is tech an exceptionally hostile environment towards
women?

~~~
demewmew
You're making a lot of assumptions that may not be correct in your reading,
because they certainly weren't explicitly stated: in particular, that agpen is
a woman (not a given from the comment in question), and two, that "men are the
root of women's problems in tech."

agpen is criticizing boys' clubs, a term that encapsulates a certain culture,
behaviors, and set of beliefs. The gender of those participating in that
culture is typically male, but women can and do perpetuate boys' club cultures
on their own, often because that's the only way they can gain admission. It's
fairer to see criticism of boys' clubs as a criticism of that culture and set
of behaviors, and the idea that one must participate in those behaviors in
order to be accepted, not of men in particular.

How is tech an exceptionally hostile environment towards women?
<http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents> \- Schneier links
to this in the OP. If your response to that is "sexism happens everywhere,"
well, I'd like it to stop happening everywhere, and I'll start with my home
turf.

~~~
s_baby
>agpen is criticizing boys' clubs, a term that encapsulates a certain culture,
behaviors, and set of beliefs.

What are these cultures, behaviors, and beliefs exactly?

To me, boy's club is another rhetorically nebulous term like patriarchy
created by the girl's club. As long as we're speaking of generalizations, let
me tell you about the girl's club. I used to date a girl that went to an all
women's college. Every time I visited her in the dorms it was customary for
everyone to yell out, "alert, man on board". When we ate at the cafeteria,
five girls(FIVE), walked up to her and informed her there is no need for her
to be dating a man. Without any consideration to my presence. Despite this
unwelcoming atmosphere many were eager to inform me of the boy's club,
patriarchy, and male privilege like they were reading a script of political
talking points. These are women that are socialized to be hateful towards men
and are blinded by this hate. They are socialized to feel like victims even
though they go to a fancy school the average male couldn't afford.

Yes, there are gender centered problems that need to be addressed. But there
is a lot of non-sense rhetorical noise out there created by the girl's club.
It's like the girl who cried wolf.

------
Cowen
I think there is a real disconnect between what hackers think of their
community and what it actually is.

We often claim to be one of the purest of meritocracies, since our primary
interactions only allow us to interact with each other's work and
emails/posts, but clearly we aren't quite as capable of this meritocracy as is
commonly stated. I wonder how much differently these women are treated online
as opposed to in person when interacting with the same people.

If the yellow-red card system does catch on, I would prefer to see the green
card avoided. I don't know if it really adds anything to the system, and I
worry that it would detract from people understanding what they did wrong. "I
got a green card, but also a yellow card. I'm still good to women though, that
second chick was just a crazy bitch." It seems like it gives people a way to
justify their bad deeds with other good deeds.

However people attempt to do it, it would be lovely to see this kind of
behavior weeded out, as it provides both a point of hypocrisy and isolation
that benefits no one.

------
phillmv
>Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man who
grabbed my hips while I was waiting for a drink at the EFF party. Like the man
who tried to get me to show him my tits so he could punch a hole in a card
that, when filled, would net him a favor from one of the official security
staff (...) Or lastly, the man who, without prompting, interrupted my
conversation and asked me if I'd like to come back to his room for a "private
pillowfight party."

Ugh! Words fail me.

~~~
reinhardt
When such "women in IT" posts make it to the front page I'm usually rolling my
eyes and think it's yet another PC guy/gal who chooses to be offended way too
easily and made a mountain out of a molehill because some presentation slide
alluded to porn or somesuch.

This on the other hand... wow, just wow. It's sexual harassment, no question
about it, and should be dealt with and punished as such.

~~~
jamesaguilar
Based on your other comments in this thread, it's hardly surprising that you
are quick to dismiss women's issues. Your attitude needs adjusting.

~~~
mhartl
Did you not read the second paragraph of the comment?

------
packetslave
Science-fiction author (and SFWA president) John Scalzi covers this kind of
thing pretty well in the context of sci-fi/comics/anime conventions (where
creepy asshats are also an ongoing problem). Seems equally applicable here:

[http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/08/09/an-incomplete-guide-
to...](http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/08/09/an-incomplete-guide-to-not-
creeping/)

------
danso
From one of the comments:
[http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm...](http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassme.html#c846060)
> _Who I really wish would grow up at DEFCON is the EFF. Once again they have
a fund raiser in which one of the prizes is a picture with one of the
strippers DEF CON hires every year._

Seriously?

~~~
sp332
They're not strippers, and they're not hired. They're volunteers, and it was
their idea.
[http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm...](http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassme.html#c846383)
and
[http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm...](http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassme.html#c846421)

~~~
withad
Even so, it still reflects badly on the EFF. It might not have been their idea
originally but they accepted the suggestion and gave it their approval.

~~~
sp332
Maybe in other contexts, but I'm not sure that Def Con was a bad place for it.

------
ElliotH
Lots of my peers who don't get this stuff don't get it because to them not
physically assaulting the opposite sex comes naturally. They don't realise
that others are very aggressive with it.

You just have to remember with advances that when in doubt, take a step back.
You wouldn't grab someone you weren't attracted to from behind right? If your
planned chat up didn't work, so what? You came for the tech not the women
right?

And blokes, lets please keep out of "its so hard for men too". Sure, men get
sexually assaulted, it's a real problem. In my city its nearly as likely for
men as women, but here's the key. Do you feel safe at conferences? I do, but
it seems lots of women don't.

Let's make everyone feel safe and valued at all our events.

------
unreal37
Are there problems that actually occur AT the defcon conference? Sounds like
most of the anecdotes are from parties, where alcohol is a factor. Is defcon a
conference or a party?

~~~
wmf
There's been an ongoing semi-related discussion about whether conference
parties should be treated as parties or as "work" events.
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3841975>

~~~
cbs
Wherever that discussion shakes out, anybody who has ever been knows that
DEFCON isn't exactly a conference.

Sure there are talks, but kids don't run away from home to attend Black Hat
Briefings.

------
jasonlotito
Honest question: As an observer, when should I feel comfortable interjecting?
Things like "if the afflicted party looks uncomfortable" seems rather vague,
and just because I am offended doesn't mean the person receiving it is
offended (I've known this to be the case). I'm honestly interested in knowing
the best way to gauge when I should act without insulting people that are
offended. I'm referring to the non-obvious cases, of course. Unwanted groping
is fairly obvious, for example. However, agressive flirting without a clear
sign?

~~~
phillmv
Approaching strangers can be difficult or awkward but here's a clear step at
least:

Step in when it's one of your friends doing the harassing. Let them know
they're being immature and inappropriate. People respond a lot more when it's
someone in their peer group.

I'm sure a lot of people have let a lot of stuff like the above slide because
"Oh that's just FooBar. He's always like that".

------
timo614
To the startup founders who are defending this behavior (if any of them do
indeed run one or are attempting to start one): <http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/fs-
sex.html>

Next, imagine your sister/mother/fiance was the girl at the bar who got licked
or had her crotch grabbed. How would that make you feel?

I'll never understand how anyone can defend this sort of behavior... I used to
volunteer at the women's center on my college campus... if you heard half the
experiences most of these women go through on a regular basis maybe you'd
learn some empathy.

How would you feel if some guy started cat calling you as you walked home at
night? How about while you walk to the store? Now imagine this happening on a
regular basis.

------
glenntzke
I strongly agree with the need for professionalism and social etiquete in all
public and professional situations and I'm glad that is a running theme as of
late and that sexual harrasment is being targeted. I think that the cards idea
is absurd, though; awarding immature behavior a red card and rewarding 'good
behavior' in any way - as opposed to simply treating adults like adults - is
itself innapropriate.

I think the correct way to deal with harrasment is those who partake are
either simply banned from the con or dealt with more severely depending on the
conduct, and those who behave simply continue enjoying the benefits of
conferencing with like-minded individuals of all genders and backgrounds.

------
kropson
Sexual Harassment is a problem, but I am not convinced that a card system is
the way to solve it. If a woman is being a jerk at a conference does that mean
I can card her? I was just reading of a top official (a women)in the US
government who is accused of sexual harassment of her subordinates. Any sort
of rules that favor one sex over another will be used to do just that. I am a
big fan of codes of conduct at conferences. If someone violates them (be male
or female) they are tossed out, period.

~~~
sp332
There's nothing gender-specific about the cards.
<http://singlevoice.net/redyellow-card-project/>

------
fein
DefCon or 5 million college bars across the country?

You could have replaced those two terms and ended up with the same article.
Perhaps the problem isn't _just_ a nerd demographic issue.

~~~
rmc
Does that mean that we shouldn't tackle it? No, this is _our_ culture too, and
we should fix it.

~~~
fein
I completely agree! I just wanted to point out that the problem goes far
deeper than a specific demographic. It's a societal issue on a national scale,
possibly (probably) even more broad.

~~~
saraid216
If you had any idea about this issues, you'd realize that we've _been_
tackling them on a global scale.

But pronouncements from on high can only do so much, especially in an age when
authority is so easily controverted; to suggest that tackling it inside hacker
culture is somehow missing the big picture is missing the fact that it's
_part_ of the global effort, rather than incidental to it.

------
stcredzero
DefCon should follow the advice of the characters from Bizet's Carmen:

    
    
        Quand il s'agit de tromperie,
        de duperie,
        de volerie,
        il est toujours bon, sur ma foi,
        d'avoir les femmes avec soi.
        Et sans elles,
        mes toutes belles,
        on ne fait jamais rien de bien!
    

In its day, it was probably a bit of socially accepted misogyny, but I think
we can re-contextualize it here. If one engaging in strip club antics has no
women as friends or colleagues, one should ask if the bacchanal is just a form
of overcompensation.

EDIT: That is overcompensation for a lonely sausage-fest life. This is why gay
engineer's lives are better than yours:

[http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1927#c...](http://www.smbc-
comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1927#comic)

~~~
sp332

      When it comes to cheating, duping, to thievery,
      It is always good, upon my  word
      To have women with you.
      And without them, the very lovely ones,
      One never does anything right!

------
andy_herbert
No excuses here, but who would have thought that male hormones and alcohol
would lead to such behavior.

~~~
coridactyl
Everyone has hormones, most people have sex drives, and a lot of people drink.
It's only the douchebags that attribute their awful behavior to the mysterious
power of physiology and depressants that doesn't seem to bring out the inner
creepers of anyone else. Indeed, the douchebags would claim that everyone else
is a douchebag, they're just hiding it. A charming lot.

------
sn
OK, I'll bite.

I've flirted at one of the evening events after the talks - after hanging
around the person for several hours and spending some time one-on-one. And I
had no intention of doing so when I first met them. No way would I do that
under any other circumstances.

If you're interested in someone you meet at a conference, you need to be
extremely cautious and not expect that the other person shares your interest.
Probably it is best to offer personal contact information in addition to
professional and see what comes of it rather than pursuing the matter at the
conference itself. Let them decide how to contact you.

Hitting on someone at a party or bar during the conference might be in bad
taste but as long as the pursuer takes no for an answer it's not what I would
call sexual harassment. However if it happened repeatedly from multiple people
I would get fed up and leave.

Hitting on someone at the conference proper when the focus should be technical
is insulting and completely inappropriate. +1 on calling the pursuer a
pervert.

And the conference organizers and presenters need to be held to a higher
standard. They should not encourage or engage in sexual behavior even if it's
a social event.

Intentional, uninvited physical contact is right out and should not be
tolerated under any circumstances. The instigator should be kicked out no
matter what.

------
sp332
Previous discussion on the article he's talking about:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4326647>

------
sp332
From the comments
[http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm...](http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassme.html#c846421)

 _I have been attending DefCon since DCIV and I've had my share of
confrontations with drunk idiots who think their flirting methods are
acceptable. A well worded put-down almost always keeps these guys at bay. A
well placed arm-bar or knee typically takes care of the rest. I played Vanna
Vinyl at Hacker Jeopardy for three years (and Beer Betty once). I had hordes
of guys asking me for photo-ops when I was all dolled-up for HJ. 99% of them
didn't recognise me during the day when I was in shorts and a tshirt w/no
make-up.

I love DefCon and have no intention on not attending until DT calls it quits.
It's the one week out of the year that I get to spend with my friends and
adopted from all over the world. DefCon has never been a "professional"
conference. It's a hacker convention/weekend long, cut-loose party with talks.
(There are talks at DefCon? ;) If you want professionalism, attend the BH
conference the week prior._

------
activepeanut
How about we let women attend these conferences for free? Like a form of
affirmative action to help balance the sex ratio. Would that help?

~~~
colmvp
While we're at it, can we have the same offering to African America men and
Latino men?

------
nookiemonster
idiots. Most of the fucks who pull this shit are no-value skiddies.

~~~
blhack
Like Richard Stallman? He's pretty well known to be _incredibly_ awkward
around women.

He's a total skiddie, though, so what you're saying makes sense.

~~~
iloveponies
I've not yet heard of an instance where rms has allegedly sexually assaulted
anyone or said anything that could be seen as blatantly sexist or misogynist.
He may be awkward around women, I'd also argue he can be awkward around
everyone - the man is not renown for having the best social skills.

------
cheez
I don't go to bars that often (at all) but isn't this typical behaviour at
bars?

However they deal with it at bars is how they should deal with it here.

------
lifbar
Women want equal right but can't deal with such stuff and thus cries for help?
If you can't deal with what you experience there - DON'T GO THERE. Simple.
After all you go there just for fun. I was harassed by women and I learned to
deal with that. Time women stopped crying and learned to take care of
themselves if they want "equal" rights.

~~~
illuminate
Harrassed for being a disturbed creep != having someone grope and put their
mouth on you without your permission.

~~~
lifbar
"Harrassed for being a disturbed creep" did you call me "disturbed creep"
without knowing how and why I was harassed? Lets say you meant something else.

And by the way, if that was woman groping some man and putting her mouth on on
him without permission - noone would care. Simply speaking - sexism works both
ways.

~~~
illuminate
Because being sexually harassed in the same manner as women do, regularly
would give you some understanding and sympathy, not a point of pride to brag
about as you are here.

~~~
lifbar
"not a point of pride to brag about as you are here"

Bragging? Really? Pointing out obvious thing that you all knights on high
moral horses forgot - woman is not always victim. And if she is perpetrator
she more often than not goes free (woman drugs husband, cuts off his penis -
not guilty.)

And I am "bragging" here BECAUSE "would give you some understanding and
sympathy". I know how women fake their harassment to get attention I feel
"understanding and sympathy" for men that was harassed that way.

~~~
ljf
I think you have no idea what harassment sexual or otherwise is like for a
woman. Once you have experienced being physically different to a man, then
come back, bit harassement that you received is in no way the same or even
similar.

------
bejar37
Q Q

------
13rules
All of this could be avoided if guys would just follow the advice in this
video: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY>

1\. Be Handsome 2\. Be Attractive 3\. Don't Be Unattractive

