
Though forests burn, trees retake farmland globally as agroforestry advances - ToFab123
https://news.mongabay.com/2020/08/though-forests-burn-agroforestry-advances-as-trees-retake-farmland-globally/
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GuB-42
> Agroforestry is an ancient agricultural technique being rediscovered all
> over the world as limitations of the globe’s highly industrialized
> agriculture become obvious.

What are the "obvious limitations"? There are many problems with today's
industrialized agriculture, but I wouldn't call the limitations obvious. The
article says it doesn't work well in Africa for instance, and I believe it,
but isn't it just because we don't have the proper GMOs/fertilizers/pesticides
for this kind of soil due to a lack of interest? Is there some "obvious
limitation" that makes it impossible.

I am not criticizing agroforestry. It is not like I _want_ pesticides,
artificial fertilizers and lifeless fields. But they cite 1920 as the starting
year for the beginning of modern agriculture. During that time, the world
population went from 2 to 7 billion. If we want do bring back ancient
techniques, we have to do it in that context.

I often see the forest treated as an example of an efficient for of
agriculture, and sure, forests are really dense with life. However, they are
like closed systems, everything that is produced by the forest is used by the
forest. Now, what we want is a patch of land from which we can pull as much as
possible in order to feed our cities. There may be trees, but it won't be like
a natural forest.

To make things clear again, I don't view agroforestry as a bad thing. If it
allows good yields on previously unexploited land and does it so while
preserving biodiversity, what's not to love. I am just skeptical when
considered as a substitute for modern industrial agriculture.

~~~
bluGill
Modern farming isn't suitable for Africa for two reasons. First, the poor
people cannot afford expensive modern equipment (but there are a few rich
farmers who can and in some cases the governments have stepped up to buy
modern equipment to be shared, though only time will tell if this is real
efforts or just a publicity stunt) , and many governments lack rule of the law
such that you can invest in something better and get a return (if there is
another revolution you lose the land and all your effort to make it better are
lost).

Note that both of these are political problems at the core. The first will be
solved (or not) as people decide living in a city is better leaving more land
for the rest to get rich from. Education is a major factor here, and things
have improved a lot in many countries. However political problems threaten to
take this away.

Political problems are hard. I don't know how to get stable governments and
rules so that farmers can trust some investment in better farming is worth
making. Nobody else does either, but you will see lots of people proposing
something.

~~~
tuatoru
> many governments lack rule of the law such that you can invest in something
> better and get a return (if there is another revolution you lose the land
> and all your effort to make it better are lost).

It's not revolutions. If you as an ordinary not politically connected person
are doing well, one of the government's henchmen will just take your property
off you, and you (or your surviving family members) have no recourse.

It's easy to see how this dis-incentivizes investment in improvements.

Secure property tenure is probably the key problem to crack.

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alltakendamned
One nuance to make is that having trees doesn't necessarily equal a forest.
Lots of agroforestry ends up being a monoculture with very limited
biodiversity.

~~~
serpix
Here in Finland the agroforests (99% of all forest coverage) generally do get
some biodiversity in them but then the entire plantation is clear cut and the
forest floor is raked clean and sterilised of all life. They take everything
but rocks. The end result is a massive biodiversity loss. Everything is put
through a grinder and shipped away. I hate agroforestry like this with a
passion and fully expect prison sentences to these criminals in the future.

~~~
quixoticelixer-
There is a lot living in the slash left after a harvest operation, also that's
forestry, not agroforestry. Wood also has to come from somewhere.

~~~
serpix
Yes but they don't leave it at that. They dig up the roots, stumps everything
up and pile it up and grind down and ship it out.

Sustainable forestry would only take out some of the trees, leave the stumps
and replant. The forest would still look like a forest but only a little
sparser for a while. there are studies proving this leads to greater yields.

~~~
quixoticelixer-
Have you got a source for that? I would be very surprised if they dug up roots
and stumps but I guess its possible when producing wood chip

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acd
We need to have trees mixed with diverse crops. Trees will provide nutrients
for the crops through a network of micro fungus which are living in
biodiversity with the trees roots. Trees will naturally also cool the close
surroundings so that it does not get too warm needed due to global warming.

Already a lot of fields in Europe are not active due too over production of
crops. We should probably mix trees and farmland and open up some of those
closed fields. Trees will take some capacity of the land but that can be
replaced by opening up closed areas.

“ Roots take in water, and nutrients, from the soil. Without help from fungus
for better uptake of nutrients, trees would be small or would die. Most trees
have a favorite species of fungus that they associate with for this purpose.”
Source:
[https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree](https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree)

Now say that you mix crops and trees then you probably can find trees and
crops which mix well together. The crop will side load get a boost of
nutrients from the trees fungus.

~~~
RcouF1uZ4gsC
One issues with trees is that they block sunlight. Thus if the type of crop
you are growing needs a lot of sunlight, you are going to have problems.

Furthermore, since the amount of photosynthesis is dependent on the amount of
sunlight, it is likely that your staple crops would be the ones that required
a lot of sunlight, since those are usually calorie dense.

~~~
jillesvangurp
This article is about countries bordering on the Sahara using trees to help
nurture back desert no good for growing anything back to healthy farm land.
There's a notion there of too much sun light preventing growth because it
dries out the land and kills off what remains of the soil turning all of it
into desert unable to retain any water; UV radiation is not great for
microbial life. Using trees to restore water balance and regulate
temperatures, seems like it works.

We have similar processes going on in industrial farming in North America and
Europe where we have been slowly depleting and giving up on what used to be
healthy farm land. E.g. large parts of Spain are very arid but that wasn't
always the case. Likewise parts of Italy and France are drying out because of
intensive farming. It's less of an issue in more Northern parts of Europe but
even there, decades of monoculture have created problems.

The message here is simple: it's a revertible process and it's a relatively
quick process that doesn't necessarily involve much more than a bit of
pruning, nurturing, and being mindful of the way nature works locally. It
seems most of the complexity and cost is related to creating the right
incentives, removing bureaucratic obstacles, and educating people a bit.
Scaling this up seems like it's worthwhile. In most places where this could
work, people have very little left to lose and a lot to gain.

If Africans in the middle of nowhere, far away from modern infrastructure can
pull this off in some of the harshest environments in the world with little or
no means, others can do that too. E.g. the Mid west and Texas come to mind in
the US. Or the plains of Spain, which used to have forest and now looks more
like the Sahara.

~~~
bluGill
The mid west is improving their soils. No till and cover crops make the soil
better. Different climates demand different farming to improve .

------
bstanfield15
If you live in the UK, you might be interested in helping crowdfund this new
regenerative agroforestry project in Scotland:

[https://projectwren.com/projects/regenerative-
agroforestry](https://projectwren.com/projects/regenerative-agroforestry)

~~~
bmsleight_
For profit company, but asking for crowd funding with little in return.

I love to support - but ultimately I am volunteering my money for their profit
margin.

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sigmaprimus
I have been planting and tending to trees in a forest that I purchased a few
years ago. On top of that I have been actively building organic soil in my
fields by top dressing with compost and organic cover crops.

That being said, recently I have been feeling that all my efforts are for not,
sure I might be making the world a better place in my own small way but for
what purpose?

Every day I watch as the people around me exploit the environment to enrich
themselves while I get left behind. So lately the little voice in my head has
been whispering "You own this land, why not clear cut the trees, make a couple
hundred grand off the raw logs, buy a tractor to disc the land that's left and
grow out a few years of annual grains then sell off the spent pesticide laiden
land and live the rest of my life in a condo with a big bank account."

I know this sound selfish but why should I just scrape by working my fingers
to the bone, whilst the rest of my community sells out? I feel like someone
shit in the pool and I'm going to be the last one to get out.

I guess my point is every inch of soil I build and every tree I protect is
like money in the bank, I can cash in at any time I want. The truth is every
day I get more tired and feel the pull to cash it all in for my own selfish
gains.

~~~
BurningFrog
Surely you can sell the land for much more money if you haven't ruined it?

Making money by destroying your own property is in general not doable.

~~~
alltakendamned
Not necessarily, often the value of the land is mostly the value of the trees
on it based on type, age, quality, density, ...

As such, nature areas - especially when they have a protected status - will be
worth less than areas where the trees can be harvested commercially.

~~~
ajmurmann
It's really a shame that our current economic system has no way to account for
miniscule value provided to everyone. I'm glad about every tree on the planet
and I'm sure there are many others who feel the same way. Yet that value
doesn't get reflected. The value only gets reflected once three is out of the
commons and logged.

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foxhop
It's not just for farmland folks. You can have you own mini food forest in
your backyard in the span of 5 years. You just have to start.

Check out my YouTube channel [1] if you find yourself wanting to learn more.
I'm trying to get 1,000 subs to unlock mobile streaming so I can go live
during weekends while tending to an establishing food forest.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/c/RussellBallestrini](https://www.youtube.com/c/RussellBallestrini)

~~~
mason55
Do you know of any resources for places on water restriction? We’re moving out
of the city in a few weeks to an area that allows for zero outdoor water usage
other than roof catchment. I’ve got some native wildflower areas planned out
but haven’t been able to find much on drought tolerant fruits and vegetable.
The couple suggestions I found pointed me towards varieties that didn’t turn
out to be drought tolerant once I researched further.

We’ll be in an area that gets a fair amount of precip (typical afternoon t
storms) but could go a week or two with rain.

~~~
htnsao
The Groasis Waterboxx is a device designed to help in growing trees in dry
areas. [1]

It works by using a slow dripping wick to make a connection with the capillary
water deep below for the roots to follow. [2]

A cheaper biodegradable version is available. [3]

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groasis_Waterboxx](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groasis_Waterboxx)

[2] [https://www.groasis.com/en/technology/how-does-the-
reforesta...](https://www.groasis.com/en/technology/how-does-the-
reforestation-and-anti-desertification-technology-of-groasis-work)

[3] [https://www.groasis.com/en/products/plant-trees-and-
bushes-i...](https://www.groasis.com/en/products/plant-trees-and-bushes-in-
dunes-and-deserts-with-the-biodegradable-growboxx)

~~~
mason55
Interesting, thanks! I'll have to see if this is allowed under our water laws

~~~
htnsao
Should be okay as you just fill it once then rainwater does the rest.

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davedx
Time to give another plug to
[https://projectwren.com](https://projectwren.com) \-- one of their biggest
CO2 compensation projects is tree planting in Kenya:
[https://projectwren.com/update/2/may-2020](https://projectwren.com/update/2/may-2020)

Support it!

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AngryData
Well, there is the problem that the reduction in farmland utilization is
reliant upon cheap artificial fertilizer, which is currently produced using
natural gas as an energy/chemical source, which causes pollution.

~~~
ZeroGravitas
2% of current greenhouse gas emissions are creating ammonia for fertilizer
from natural gas.

Two potential solutions are a)

Create the ammonia from green hydrogen i.e. made from water with renewavle
electricity

b)

Theres a process that turns natural gas (ideally from food waste) into
hydrogen plus graphite do the carbon becomes a usable resource ratger than
being vented as CO2.

~~~
Cthulhu_
c) use practices that were commonplace before artificial fertilizer was
invented; fallowing, manure, compost, etc.

Of course, manure and compost have their own set of CO2 (and methane) emission
problems. At least it's carbon neutral I guess.

~~~
quixoticelixer-
And get much lower yields as a result

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dr_dshiv
This article is based on assumptions of global and local ecosystem health.
Quantifying ecosystem health is fascinating, important and very difficult.
Etymologically, health is based on wholeness. In classical Greek philosophy,
health is harmony, which can be defined as integrated diversity. Can we
therefore measure the diversity and integrity of ecosystems? Bio-Diversity
measures in ecosystems seem easy, but are actually quite complicated (two
species of pine the same as pine and oak, or pine and rare moss?) — and
measures of ecosystem integrity are even harder. But not hard as in
impossible, hard as in more scientists should be working on it. Here's one
recent paper.

Vieweger, A., & Döring, T. F. (2015). Assessing health in agriculture–towards
a common research framework for soils, plants, animals, humans and ecosystems.
Journal of the Science of Food and Agriculture, 95(3), 438-446.

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soniman
As a tree-lover this is a heartwarming story but it has to be put in context:
the population of Niger will double by 2050. The country will be growing by
almost a million people per year. How will it support all those people who
will be living on the edge of starvation? And how many of those desperate
people will be tempted to cut down the trees?

~~~
rimliu
[https://xkcd.com/605/](https://xkcd.com/605/)

~~~
soniman
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_momentum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_momentum)

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v77
Our North American aquifiers are drying up and topsoil is being blown away? I
live in a major farming province of Canada and none of this is true. There's a
massive worldwide glut of wheat this year because there are so many good crop-
producing areas around the world and this has been true for decades.

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hikerclimb
I don’t think this will work... as usually we just destroy everything...

