
Tell HN: Apply HN apology and revision - dang
A couple days ago we ended the first Apply HN experiment with a big fuck-up, and I&#x27;d like to try to make it right. (For background on this, see <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11633270" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11633270</a> and <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11440627" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11440627</a>). I thought I&#x27;d made it clear that we&#x27;d make things up and change the Apply HN rules as we went along, but it wasn&#x27;t clear. It took time and a large stack of HN user comments for me to perceive this, but I get it now.<p>Maciej, I&#x27;m sorry. Your interpretation of what I originally posted was not only reasonable, it was how most people read it. The fault was not yours, but mine. We changed the rules of a game you had won, to cover for my failure to anticipate an unwanted outcome, and you were right to be pissed.<p>We&#x27;ve offered Maciej the $20k, and he graciously accepted and asked us to donate it to the San Francisco Coalition on Homelessness (<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cohsf.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cohsf.org&#x2F;</a>). We&#x27;ll take care of doing so. (Edit 2016-05-08: We now have.)<p>A note to HN users: The intention behind Apply HN was to do something new to excite and interest the community and engage it with YC in an interesting way. That did happen, but it pains me that it also partly turned into the opposite. If any of you have suggestions for how to do better, I&#x27;d like to hear them.
======
mdip
It's nice to see an organization behave like "a decent human being" from time
to time.

This post is a shining example of exactly what people _want_ to hear when they
perceive a company/organization has failed (especially when it's apparent to
the company/organization). It's direct/to the point, doesn't mince words,
doesn't attempt to twist it into something it isn't and instantly, in my case,
raised the level of respect that I have for YC[1]. Personally, I didn't fully
understand the controversy and didn't feel it was as big of a deal as it was
bubbling up to be, but everyone has their opinion. Had I been on the "yes, you
fucked up badly" side, though, this would have been a response I would have
never expected and been pleased to see.

I know there are reasons that organizations don't offer this level of candor.
Many of them are the same reasons people choose not to apologise/own up for
their own mistakes. The only valid reason is the one that comes from the legal
department: Outright admitting a mistake opens one up to possible liabilities
and an easy win from a plaintiff in court. In the especially litigious United
States, this could be a "death blow" kind of risk. When it's not, I wouldn't
want to be the guy in charge of weighing the "goodwill" benefit from handling
an apology correctly against the costs of litigation (I'd prefer to attempt
blind-folded archery through the wake of a 747). But I deeply wish
organizations could behave more like individuals and handle an apology
properly: Admit clearly you've screwed up, state the cause and corrections to
prevent it in the future, and possibly provide _something_ as a show of good
faith that those actions are being followed. I found _seek out and find a way_
to do business with companies that behaved like that.

[1] Which is funny to say. Frankly, I'd have _expected_ a response like this
from YC because they've tended to behave in an admirable way.

[2] All of which are terrible ideas and require one to only get over one's
ego. Be quick to apologise and quick to forgive is my rule. Just because
malice wasn't intended (which is practically always the case), doesn't mean
things couldn't have been handled better and people weren't hurt just the
same.

------
postscapes1
I might be in the minority opinion here, but I think Maciej is getting off
light on this one.

I am a happy paying subscriber to Pinboard and enjoy his writing as much as
anyone here, but Pinboard can barely be considered a startup at this point in
time (running since 2009), and he seems like he has not really been interested
in adding much new since then (for good reason..)

The original posting stated "It will be like a lighter version of YC for idea
and prototype stage companies" \- Which doesn't fit Pinboard at all.

I think the original response to the voting, etc was handled very
professionally by YC, and Maciej should spend more time writing and less time
stewing up trouble.

~~~
theuttick
"It will be like a lighter version of YC for idea and prototype stage
companies" \- Which doesn't fit Pinboard at all." \- I agree 100%

~~~
waffle_ss
This comment adds nothing to the discussion. Use the upvote arrow if you
simply agree with someone.

------
keithflower
Note to tech world: THIS is how you take responsibility, make things right
when mistakes happen, and look out for the communities we live in.

~~~
lemming
It's good to see the apology, it's very well written and dang has seemed
consistently genuine throughout this process. My respect for him has increased
because of this episode, and I think he does a great job shepherding HN.

I wish I could say the same for YC. Kevin's post about why Maciej wasn't
accepted was a textbook example of the sort of thinking that leads to the
terrible lack of diversity we have in tech. Nothing about this changes that.
20k is relatively little money for both YC and Maciej, it's nice to see it go
to what looks like a worthy cause but it doesn't really address the core issue
at all.

The arguments about diversity in tech are normally framed in terms of race,
gender, sexual orientation etc. But in this case the issue was in diversity of
ideas relating to startups. I think Maciej makes some very compelling
arguments that the sort of model that YC promotes is seriously flawed, and was
basically rejected because of that. I think his arguments are ones that many
young entrepreneurs should hear.

If you replace the first couple of sentences of Kevin's post with "The simple
answer is that ${the woman | the black person | the gay person} was clearly
the best candidate, but just made me feel uncomfortable in the end. It’s
touchy feely, I know, but the truth." they could have been successfully sued,
and for good reason. Think of the 20k as settling out of court.

I generally agree with Maciej's assessment of the startup world, and it's sad
to have one of my major prejudices about it confirmed so clearly. My
estimation of YC has definitely sunk even lower after this.

~~~
thenomad
Do you have a link to Kevin's post and Maciej's responses at all? I (and I
suspect a lot of other readers) completely missed all this, and whilst I'm not
very interested in the drama, I am interested in the points you bring up in
this post.

~~~
exolymph
Here's the thread you're looking for:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633517](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633517)

------
colinbartlett
What a compassionate way to turn this into something good! Thank you to all
parties.

If anyone wants to join me in also donating to the San Francisco Coalition on
Homelessness, here is the donation form linked on their site:

[https://www.networkforgood.org/donation/MakeDonation.aspx?OR...](https://www.networkforgood.org/donation/MakeDonation.aspx?ORGID2=943111898)

(You have to actually click the "Take Action" link in the header:
[http://www.cohsf.org/](http://www.cohsf.org/))

------
danieltillett
My specific suggestions on how to improve the Apply HN process.

1\. Allow more than 2000 characters for the application description. I don’t
think we need to make this endless - something like 5000 characters should
work.

2\. Increase the contrast of the text in the description - as a (slightly)
older person reading large blocks of light grey text on a light grey
background is hard going.

3\. Set clear guidelines on what we are supposed to be judging the
applications on. Is it what we would most like to see funded, or is it what we
think is the best fit for YC?

4\. Once a shortlist is selected then let the applicants update the
description in light of the discussion they have had. In my case I learned
from the questions asked that many people missed what the market was for my
idea and dismissed it on that basis. I really needed to go back into the
original application and update the description to make this clearer.

5\. YC should not limit themselves to the winners of the process. If they see
an application they think is a great fit for YC then just interview the
applicants. YC is getting a different category of applicants in both cases. In
my case I put in an Apply HN application yet I had no interest in applying for
a standard YCF or the YC program. Edit. I should add here that I am probably
not a good fit for YC, but I am sure some of the other applicants that did not
win were.

6\. We need some better way of deciding on what is more important - what
appeals to the HN community, or what has wider appeal. The HN community is a
great resource, but it is not necessarily the best market for a startup. Many
of the applications were voted up on what HNers wanted, not on what we thought
the wider world wants.

~~~
DanBC
> 2\. Increase the contrast of the text in the description - as a (slightly)
> older person reading large blocks of light grey text on a light grey
> background is hard going.

I'd love to see some decent research on this. I'd like to see what the
eyesight is like for the average web designer, compared to the average
eyesight for the general population.

Here were not talking about people who meet the level of "visual impairment"
\- they may wear glasses, but their nowhere near meeting requirements to be
counted as disabled.

Yet very many websites make the mistake of having either light text on a
bright background, or of having a bright white background and black text.

A vision-simulation mode plug in might be useful.

~~~
tripzilch
There's also the factor that web-designers generally do their work on high-
quality, big monitors (and an environment that doesn't impair viewing, etc
etc). Some of them probably do test their designs on other monitors? Like
you'd maybe also test your web-application on a low-powered machine.

Anyway, a lot of them probably also don't, but still a lot of the general
public has less than optimal viewing conditions.

And ashwoods, I'd also be interested in that research if you can dig up that
you find particularly illustrative.

(anecdotal: I often enough open the Inspector tool to disable a `body { color:
#555; }` style definition, myself)

------
karmacondon
I'm starting to lose faith in the concept of online voting. You get Pinboard,
Boaty McBoatface and white house petitions about the Death Star. Maybe it's
how easily links can be shared to reach a wider audience. Or just something
about the nature of using the internet to vote. For some reason, nonsense
seems to be more likely when people make decisions over http.

There's a fine line between "wisdom of the crowds" and "American Idol for
startups". I'm not sure exactly where Apply HN falls. It doesn't seem like any
individual investment will make or break YC, and this is an interesting idea
for an experiment. But I don't come away from this feeling upbeat about the
democratic process.

~~~
grey-area
I too was disappointed to see the mob forming and stayed away from the
original discussion poisoned by it - a crowd baying for blood and
entertainment is the worst side of HN and online crowds, so it's disappointing
to see people behave that way here.

As a suggestion for doing things better:

Make it clear what outcome YC wants (serious candidates for YCF) and what they
won't accept.

Don't tolerate crass trolling like boaty mcboatface or 'I want my $20k', stamp
it out early with a polite decline, if someone is clearly subverting the
contest.

Make the reward explicitly be not participation and $20k, but an interview
with HN, then starty mcstartupface who has no interest in the program can be
gracefully declined, and others who are actually interested can participate as
was intended.

Have categories defined by HN as well as an overall popularity contest, to
encourage people to look at all the options, not just those which are popular.

------
neurotech1
The ability to say "I F'd up" is an important skill of leadership. Capt. Kohei
Asoh [0] crashed a Japan Airlines DC-8 into the San Francisco Bay after a
miscalculating the final approach. Nobody was injured and the aircraft was
repaired. It became famously known among pilots as the "Asoh Defense"

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_2#The_.2...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_2#The_.22Asoh_defense.22)

~~~
throwaway_xx9
I read the wikipedia entry. As an IFR-rated pilot, actual measurement of 300'
and 3/4 miles is an easy ILS approach.

So rather than demonstrating leadership skill, total incompetence was
illustrated.

------
levemi
For what it's worth I only voted for pinboard because I like what they're
doing. I didn't vote for any of the other startups. I didn't see the
promotional tweet and I had hoped pinboard would become a YC company. I'm
disappointed all around and while I appreciate that the money will help people
at the charity I'd be lying if I didn't say that I'm disappointed Maciej
didn't go and join the YC family with pinboard.

~~~
santoshalper
At this point, I think it's probably better for everyone to go their separate
ways. Some drama was had, Pinboard doubtlessly got a nice subscriber spike,
and now some homeless people will be helped. Good ending.

------
rdl
Wow, my respect for everyone involved is higher now than before this incident.
Congratulations!

------
tptacek
You're a good man, Charlie Brown.

~~~
vox_mollis
"You" being you, among others. Wouldn't have happened without your drum-
pounding, Thomas.

~~~
nickpsecurity
Thomas was certainly putting the most effort into the thread but it was a
community effort with many voices opposing the result. As it should be if
there's a problem in a community. That's likely why YC responded the way they
did.

~~~
dhimes
Geez- I miss a couple of days and really important stuff happens. Not sure
what to make of it yet, but I'm pretty sure it means that this is a community
I'm proud to be a member of.

~~~
striking
You may have missed it due to the fact that the final YCF thread only got 180
votes and was probably flagged into the ether.

~~~
dang
It wasn't flagged (well, a few users did, but not enough to affect it) and it
spent many hours on the front page. It wasn't posted at peak hours, but we
didn't plan it that way; it just ended up being the earliest time Kevin and I
were both ready.

------
simonebrunozzi
Hey, well said.

Fuck-ups happen. The biggest difference is how you deal with it.

------
chris_wot
dang, good on you. I hope it's not too embarrassing if I publicly say this,
but I'm more than ever impressed by your level headed judgement and decision
making, but even more so that when you realise you made a mistake you openly
say so, then take measures to make it right.

It's very hard to do this, and it's my firm belief that only those of good
character have the strength and fortitude to do so!

Maciej, you're a gracious guy and the manner in which you handled this was
also exemplary.

As an aside: dang has one of the toughest and most thankless jobs you can
imagine: moderating HN and ensuring that trolls, unstable people and those
with hurt feelings are fairly dealt with and at times corrected. I am one of
those people who dang has had to quietly speak with after I emailed HN, and
his gracious, open and firm communication speaks volumes, and is one of the
reasons why HN is the best and most interesting forums on the Internet.

------
alva
Great response dang and big respect to Maciej for directing the 20k towards
charity. A good resolution.

------
minimaxir
While this is the best outcome for all parties, I hope that future experiments
have more clearly-defined rules. The outcome shows that brigading is a
favorable strategy, and it may set a bad precedent in the long run. (Such as
with a certain other startup voting site where vote brigading is expected
because everyone else is doing it)

~~~
alain94040
Actually, I don't look forward to more clearly-defined rules. What you get
then are more lawyering and arguing about the meaning of words. Often, the
goal, which is what got us together in the first place, is completely lost,
Instead, we argue about the parsing of each word of the rules. Definitely not
what startup-y or "lean" as I see it.

~~~
stale2002
"BUT BUT BUT, There was no rule that said I wasn't allowed to murder all of my
competitors! Since no one is left except for me, that means you HAVE to give
me the money!"

------
personjerry
Nice. I like how YC "moves fast" and introduces new experiments pretty often,
but solves the "break things" issue gracefully and with good communication.

------
gus_massa
Just three recommendations. (I think I have read them in other threads, but I
want to insist on them.)

* Say that the HN community will select 2 project for an _interview_ for the YCF program, so it's completely clear that YC has the final word, veto power and whatever additional conditions seam necessary.

* Keep the last vote open for at least 24 hours, as it was in the extended period. I live Argentina, so I have a an hour similar to USA, but it would be nice that the people outside north/south America have time to vote.

* (More difficult) Enable a "hide" option for the ApplyHN threads. There were more than +250 applications and some of them were good and some of them were "obviously" bad. I'd like to filter them from the random order (without flagging them), so I can make my own shortlist of 30-50 applications to read them more carefully and upvote a few more.

------
markbao
It sucks that the outcome of the first Apply HN became complicated, but the
resolution makes me confident that the people behind this are gracious and
understanding – which is more important than that mistakes were made this time
around. Thank you.

------
HappyTypist
I think what YC has done was reasonable. It is true that you changed the
rules, but Apply HN is like a MVP. Making things up as you go alone is part of
the ethos of startups, and what matters more is if it's done in good faith.

------
Gratsby
I thought it was pretty clear from the beginning.

But I have to say it's pretty cool to see this response. Shouldering
responsibility and admitting fault is something that most people avoid and
most businesses don't even think about.

------
cperciva
_If any of you have suggestions for how to do better, I 'd like to hear them._

1\. Make this "HN selects startups which get invited for YC interviews", i.e.,
a feeder into the existing system. Essentially, use HN to supplement the
network of YC alumni who help out with the application-filtering.

2\. Since YC will explicitly still have the final say, open this to both
Fellowships and YC Core applications.

3\. Have a standardized form. Or possibly even a "make this application
public" checkbox on the regular YC application form.

4\. Use a more sophisticated voting system. I think a "which of these two
looks better" combined with a form of Elo rating could work quite well.

EDIT: To the people voting this comment up: Do you agree with all four of
those suggestions, just some of them, or are you voting it up because you like
the fact that I'm offering ideas despite thinking that these four are all bad
ones? As Dan has said a few times recently, discussion is more useful than
votes. :-)

~~~
Alex3917
> Use a more sophisticated voting system.

How about only HN accounts with a verified email address can vote, and then
you vote via a "Sign up for their mailing list" button? That way you're
forcing voters to have some skin in the game, and also leaving the startups
who participate with a tangible asset.

~~~
jrowley
Also a karma threshold?

~~~
fnordo
Age of account is a better metric in my opinion.

~~~
jsmthrowaway
Why?

~~~
nekopa
Well, I've had my account for over 2500 days, and my karma only yesterday
broke 1000. But I read HN daily, and feel part of this community.

I just only comment when I feel like I can add something to the conversation,
and always pause before commenting (stops me from getting into flame wars)

So age of account should have some say, or at least if they can see how often
you read and vote for stories and comments here.

------
Kiro
I can't support Maciej when he's posting this kind of stuff:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633614](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633614)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633925](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633925)

------
forgottenacc56
This is a cryptic post, what, in direct terms, happened?

~~~
tptacek
It's not cryptic. This was all hashed out on the announcement thread. Pinboard
won HN's endorsement overwhelmingly, but Pinboard itself isn't a good fit for
YCF. When "Apply HN" was conceived of, it wasn't clear that the winners would
still need to be interviewed by YC. It became clear that they'd need to be. An
interview step was added. Maciej talked to Kevin, Kevin decided not to move
forward with Pinboard.

If YC does an "Apply HN" thing again, no doubt the interview step will be in
the announcement, but it wasn't this time.

The rest is just miscommunication and bad optics.

~~~
madeofpalk
I read through that and I didn't really see anything that required an apology
and $20k to be given to a charity.

'What' did Pinboard supposedly win? I can't find any poll or submission that
appears to be contentious. I searched HN
[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=%22apply%20hn%22&sort=byPopula...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=%22apply%20hn%22&sort=byPopularity&dateRange=all&type=story&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0)
and found this joke submission
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11441480](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11441480)

I mean, I think I've pieced together what's happened, but I'm still fairly
confused and feel like I'm missing a lot of context.

~~~
duiker101
Pinboard won by having the most votes, but was disqualified for vote brigading
apparently.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633278](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633278)

And the "joke submission" wasn't joke at all

~~~
santoshalper
The vote brigading thing was just mud slinging. They were pretty clear that
they disqualified him because they don't like him. Or at least don't want to
work with him.

~~~
zeckalpha
Was my vote "brigaded"?

------
OoTheNigerian
Since I commented on the previous ones, here is my take on this.

Dang and YC have done well and played their part. Maciej has not.

I am with @nickpsecurity in stating that Maciej is misappropriating the money
invested in his company. Of course the argument can be made that

1\. The money did not get to him at all.

2\. Too much bad blood has made participation untenable.

Irrespective of the above, the spirit and intention of those that voted him (I
did not) and those that insisted he be given the money (I did) for for Maciej
& Pinboard to participate in YC so we can see what happens and how it will
affect the product. .

If we are looking for who YC should make charitable donations to, we would
mention that.

The aim of this scheme by YC was to engage and bring the community together
and it has brought a lot to awkwardness. This is _mainly_ on Maciej and
doesn't look good.

To Dang and co, keep up the experiments. Not everyone will turn out as
planned.

------
cprecioso
While I was rooting for Maciej, I understood why Y Combinator didn't want to
fund him, and I don't understand this decision at all. Maciej applied to YCF,
not to just get the money, even if that's all he wanted. He should have either
took the money and the mentorship, or nothing at all.

------
beatpanda
Wow, $20k to the Coalition is a great choice. That's fantastic news.

------
josh_carterPDX
To Daniel and Kevin,

You are both awesome people who are genuinely interested in doing something
different to help give new ideas a nudge forward. It sucks that this blew up,
but I think the original intent still rings true and I thank you both for
giving us a chance to be a part of it.

------
nickpsecurity
Excellent response, dang, by you and YC.

Alternately, what Maciej did with the money is more irritating now given point
of competition and his comments in it. I was more interested to see what value
in business he could create with it given Pinboard success. (rolls eyes)

~~~
tmuir
I think he was mostly interested in the mentoring and networking, in terms of
what YC could offer his business.

He mentioned in a comment that $20K was 3 weeks revenue.

~~~
danieltillett
Hopefully after all the free publicity it is only 2 weeks revenue.

------
acconrad
Cheers for doing what's right, double cheers for the donation!

------
rmason
How about letting the community nominate companies for consideration? I can
think of a few bootstrapped companies in Michigan that are deserving. Whether
HN would agree I don't know.

Rules would be that you couldn't have any equity in said company or have ever
received any compensation from them.

Could the HN community vet them as well as you do?

~~~
dang
Since they'd have to be willing participants in order for that to work, it
would be simplest if you persuaded them to apply themselves. (That's if we do
this again, which we haven't decided.)

~~~
danieltillett
Dan I do hope YC runs the experiment again with an improved process. I can't
talk for any of the other top 20 candidates, but I would never have applied
for a standard YCF yet after the experience I would consider it in the future.

Whenever you do something new you can expect not everything run according to
how you expect. I know we are supposed to have a postmortem thread at some
stage, but I would encourage you to use the results more widely in your
internal selection process. There is no reason a priori that the community
chosen candidates are the best fit for YC. If you find a good candidate in the
Apply HN applicants then just give them an interview irrespective of what
votes they get.

~~~
mindcrime
Likewise, I hope you do it again. We didn't apply this time, and
"conventional" YC has never been for us anyway. But the YCF program is very
appealing, and I actually like the idea of doing it the "Apply HN" way. That
way at least you get (in the optimal case) some interesting feedback and
discussion from the community, regardless of what happens with the YCF
application.

------
soneca
I understood it as a game you could change the rules _until_ you posted the
poll, already vetting some uneligible applications and keeping Pinboard, and
stating that the two most upvoted would pass. Then you messed up because you
decided Pinboard was not elegible anymore. Personally I find this final
decision and mea culpa correct and honorable. Congrats.

My suggestion: Next time ask a private application for YCF with the sole
purpose of considering an application eligible on whatever (transparent)
criteria you choose. And dont take it lightly. Be 100% sure that you would
give the 20k and mentoring to _any_ of the eligible applicants.

Then create detailed rules and guidelines that allow removing an elegible
applicant from the poll and publish it.

Then, only then, publish the poll and state that the 2 most upvoted will be
selected.

------
zorpner
Well done -- excellent resolution.

------
forrestthewoods
I can't actually find what Maciej submitted, why it was initially rejected,
and why it was deemed within the rules. It's kinda hard to scroll through
hundreds of posts on a small mobile screen. Can someone summarize those
details?

~~~
DanBC
HN had a competition. The prize was some money and invitation to HN
Fellowship. This was announced here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11440627](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11440627)

Some people applied. Pinboard applied. Some people felt that Pinboard fell
outside the scope of the competition. (Because it's a well known, much used,
much loved, site.) Pinboard was included in the poll, here
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11615639](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11615639)

Pinboard got a lot of votes. Some of these were from people coming from
Twitter after Pinboard announced the poll.

Some people felt that was an abuse of the process; other entries got penalised
for doing the same thing and it's a long established convention on HN that you
do not ask people to upvote submissions. Other people felt that if it was a
rule it should have been more clearly communicated.

Pinboard got more votes than other entries, but were initially denied
fellowship and funding.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633270](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633270)

This caused some anger, annoying, displeasure, etc.

I've tried to write this neutrally, but I may have mangled some of it.

------
solve
Of all the times I've seen Internet votes made to have a real-world value, the
bad parts of this contest were among the mildest of potentially bad outcomes
there could be. Went better than expected honestly.

------
felixgallo
Much respect Dan. And classy, great way to handle it to both you and Maciej.

------
vs2370
well handled. The positive side of all this is cohsf got 20k donation. So it
wasn't that bad after all.

------
rorykoehler
How to make the process better:

\- give a 2 week window for applications to go up. Only publish the posts all
at once, once the window shuts

\- give every user one vote and one vote only so there is a cost to the user
in voting

------
austinhutch
I was extremely disappointed reading the thread yesterday and the overall
handling of the situation on the side of YC. This apology and outcome is about
as good they come though.

------
emirozer
I actually really like this outcome of 20k going to charity :)

------
_wmd
If you insist on drawing continuous attention to meta drama (this is something
very new to HN since PG stepped back), then please at least document exactly
what it is you're apologizing for rather than making some vague remarks then
linking to 2 huge threads full of drama. I really tried to figure out what
this was all about, but after 5 minutes I've given up.

This is really crap content, please cut it out

~~~
dang
Ouch, but you're right, except for 'continuous'. Meta stuff is off-topic, but
there's a tradeoff. After pg stepped back, users asked for more transparency.
pg didn't run HN that way because he didn't have time and because it isn't
interesting. More transparency means more meta. We try to keep it down.
Normally we'd downweight this thread, but here that would have looked like
trying to bury a story about our own screwup, and HN would 'see through a
cheap ploy like that' whether it was the reason or not.

You're also right that my post above was impenetrable to people who hadn't
been following this. Sorry. I didn't have time to write a full description,
plus I was scared to, because there would have been a volley of objections no
matter how I described it.

~~~
sillysaurus3
Thank you for modding HN. We're very lucky to have you at the helm.

------
borski
This was precisely the correct resolution. Thanks 'dang and 'kevin for doing
the right thing, and understanding the issue at hand. Sorry if we clashed a
bit on the other thread, but I wanted to ensure you understood, clearly, how
it was misread by so many, even if it didn't occur to you when you wrote it.
That happens all too often in anyone's writing. :)

Kudos.

------
staunch
Yay. Well done. Now please don't let this rocky start ruin such a uniquely
promising idea. This is YC's chance to implement the first true diversity
program in SV.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11634217](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11634217)

------
a_small_island
I almost posted an 'ASK HN' on this topic but didn't want to stir the pot.
Since it was an online contest, was YC legally obligated to the 'official
rules' as it were, and Pinboard had legal recourse? Did that factor into this
ultimate decision of capitulation?

~~~
Falcon9
No official rules were ever posted (in any traditional legal format) and it
was clear to many that there were "legal" weasel outs YC could use (twitter
posts asking for upvotes) if it somehow came to that. I doubt any possible
legal recourse factored in here. Reputation, yes. Legal? No. (IANAL)

------
kevinwang
Beautiful.

------
tdicola
> A note to HN users: The intention behind Apply HN was to do something new to
> excite and interest the community and engage it with YC in an interesting
> way. That did happen, but it pains me that it also partly turned into the
> opposite. If any of you have suggestions for how to do better, I'd like to
> hear them.

How about publishing rules for a contest and sticking to them, or canceling
the contest entirely if it's not going the way you expected or desired? If
there was a risk that some founder you didn't like would be picked the rules
should have been clear about how to prevent that (through interview, etc.).
And if you realize the rules didn't cover this contingency then scrap it
entirely and start over with new rules.

Frankly I'm surprised that this is being pushed back as some failing of the HN
community. This is clearly a failing of the contest creators.

~~~
arkades
> I thought I'd made it clear that we'd make things up and change the rules as
> we went along, but it wasn't clear. It took time and a large stack of HN
> user comments for me to perceive this, but I get it now.

> Maciej, I'm sorry. Your interpretation of what I originally posted was not
> only reasonable, it was how most people read it. The fault was not yours,
> but mine.

I don't see them "push[ing] back as some failing of the HN community." They
openly admit it was their own fault.

------
koolba
This apology is definitely worth more than the $20K. Well spent and nice
turnaround.

------
smoyer
There is too much grief being felt on both sides of the table for a measly
$20k. I hope everyone's happy with he outcome but let's avoid this kind of
pain in the future.

~~~
llamataboot
Hey now, not everyone lives in a world where $20k is "measly". For most of the
US, it's damn near half a year of salary, not to mention the rest of the
world.

~~~
adrienne
I could literally solve every problem I have in my life right now with an
infusion of $20k, so yeah, calling it "measly" is just one more drop in the
bucket of evidence that i'm not welcome at HN because it's for wealthy
techbros.

~~~
dang
I blanched at that comment too, and don't think of $20k as measly either. You
are welcome here, and HN is emphatically not just for "wealthy techbros".

The most offensive comments one runs across are the ones that make the
strongest impression, but they don't give a representative picture. And much
of the time an obnoxious comment turns out to have been carelessly expressed
rather than obnoxious outright.

------
danieltillett
Dan are we going to have a specific postmortem thread on this experiment? I
don't want to post a lot of specific suggestions in this thread as they would
be rather off topic.

~~~
dang
I think you should post your suggestions here. Others are doing so, and I
don't know if I have the stamina for another thread about this. It would
probably end up much like this one anyhow.

~~~
danieltillett
OK. I think you should have another thread to focus on the positives that have
come out this experiment.

I congratulate you on pushing this along and I really feel for you on how this
ended. I think is a great shame given 95% of the whole process was positive.

------
andy_ppp
Super impressive to see things resolved this way! Well done.

------
forgottenpass
_If any of you have suggestions for how to do better, I 'd like to hear them._

Don't open up a selection process if you're not going to accept results that
aren't already of the sort that your insider selection process would have
picked anyway.

In another thread you called Pinboard your "Boaty McBoatface scenario." The
thing worth understanding is that Boaty was the best possible outcome of that
poll. If they had wanted to keep to status quo of boring and vaguely-majestic
names they should have never opened the process up. Boaty was not a failure,
Mountain Dew's poll that selected "Hitler did nothing wrong" was.

Unless you're ready to paint the giant cartoon eyes on the bow of your ship,
you don't actually want outsider ideas. So why are you asking for them?

~~~
dang
> _In another thread you called Pinboard your "Boaty McBoatface scenario."_

No, that's the opposite of what I said. If we'd thought that, we'd have
disqualified it right away for that reason.

What happened is that Maciej posted some comments that suggested that his
application was serious (though it obviously had a lot of jokes in it), and
Kevin and I agreed that we'd rather trust that interpretation than simply
reject it. We knew that it would likely win, and we were fine with that.

What happened after that is where it gets confusing and sad and hard to
persuade the reader that there was good intent on both sides even though there
was, so let's just skip that and go straight to the apology, which addresses
the key point.

------
aaronbrethorst
Props to both of you.

------
waddabadoo
Tough crowd here.

------
wodenokoto
Is there a tl;dr version of all this?

------
curiousgal
Can someone eli5 who this Maciej is?

------
krmbzds
Pinboard is the best.

------
hsod
It's weird. I read that thread and gave it a lot of thought over the last
couple of days, and I was just deciding that I respected your choice (even if
it wasn't necessarily one I would have made myself). Then this unqualified mea
culpa shows up and I don't know what to think.

In the world of PR, there's a very strong bias towards appeasement. If a
controversy gets big enough companies tend to just 'give in.' But these
victories are hollow ones as the true rightness or wrongness of the
controversial actions become irrelevant. It's impossible to know whether a
corporate/organizational apology is genuine or if the stakeholders are simply
appeasing the crowd.

My gut says this phenomenon has become more powerful in the social media era
as consumer voices are more easily amplified.

~~~
YuriNiyazov
You'll notice that there were two things at stake:

1) $20K

2) Participation in YCF

Maciej was rejected because Kevin didn't want him to participate in YCF;
Maciej' objection was always "I want my 20K", implying that though YC
conflated those things to be the same, he saw them as separate.

You'll note that this apology says "We've offered Maciej the $20k", and says
nothing about YCF, so if it's appeasement, it's only partial. It seems most
everyone is satisfied that dang apologized and Maciej said "donate the money".
Frankly, _I_ would've liked to see Maciej go through YC, because I think it
might've had better long-term consequences for the ecosystem in general.

~~~
bobwaycott
> _Maciej was rejected because Kevin didn 't want him to participate in YCF_

This is a pretty dishonest characterization, isn't it? Maciej was rejected
because _he_ didn't want to participate in YCF, according to what kevin and
dang have previously explained about their post-vote phone call. Of course,
that was their version of the call. I may have missed where Maciej countered
with, "Not true. I wanted to participate in YCF. Kevin didn't want me in the
group."

Disclaimer: I voted for Pinboard.

~~~
lemming
No, it's not:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633517](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633517)

Kevin explained pretty clearly that it was his call, and Maciej disagreed with
that.

~~~
bobwaycott
Ah, okay. So, Maciej did want to participate in YCF? I'm still not seeing him
say that. Because I got the impression he only wanted the $20K (and I was okay
with that, which is why I voted for Pinboard).

Edit: I'm probably being overly pedantic here. I rally behind Maciej's
contention that we are all adults and don't have to feel warm and fuzzy about
each other to work together. I suppose that's his way of saying he was okay
with participating in YCF. I seem to be in the group who read the Apply HN
experiment as applying via the community, and entailing YCF participation. I
keep getting the sense from Maciej and others that their reading was this was
a contest to win $20K, with no expectation to participate in YCF. I'm probably
in error here.

~~~
dsp1234
_I 'm still not seeing him say that_

"If the votes swing my way, I'd be happy to have a good-faith conversation
with you."[0]

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11441978](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11441978)

~~~
bobwaycott
Man, I find it sad that 30 days ago, there seemed to be such a positively
exuberant attitude.

So, good-faith conversation occurred. Didn't go well obviously. Definitely
seems to indicate that 30 days ago, there was an understanding that
participating in YCF and winning the $20K wasn't simply a matter of votes
swinging one way.

------
yarou
Good on dang and whomever else was involved in this decision.

@dang - I know you sometimes have to make tough decisions where all parties
involved end up unhappy with the end result. But I'm sure that the vast
majority of the community appreciates what you do. At the very least I do.

It's not said very often, so I wanted to rectify that.

------
cmech
Not only do you try to fix the competition and then hide the fact, you're now
trying to do the same with legitimate questions. This isn't responsibility nor
transparency and surprisingly unbecoming of a organisation like YCombinator
that supposedly value merit.

~~~
dang
Your comments were killed by anti-troll software, not by moderators and not
for reasons having anything to do with this thread.

We detached this comment from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11647858](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11647858)
and marked it off-topic.

------
cmech
I think you're missing the greater point here. From the original announcement
a few things were quite clear. You welcomed a different perspective [0] and
those who wouldn't want to go through the normal interview process [0], people
was supposed to be nice [1], bias to be avoided [2] and that HN would decide.
With this apology you've largely satisfied HN, but left everyone else
wondering if they can ever trust an YC announcement again.

The things that was different about him was called out as faults
(participating on his own terms, not knowing rules, making you uncomfortable),
he was forced into the normal interview process (which you both said wouldn't
happen and explicitly tried to attract people who wouldn't want to, then using
that as an excuse to reject him), the "be nice" rules wasn't enforced on the
many comments attacking his character as a result of this process and bias
wasn't avoided.

It's one thing to change the rules, another not to be true to the premise of
the experiment. How could someone now in good faith recommend a YC initiative
to someone who doesn't fit the mould, when you can't even make it work with
"one of your own"?

[0] "Hacker News users have many diverse perspectives on technology and
business. Perhaps if HN picked startups, it would pick differently than YC.
Maybe different startups would be motivated to apply, if they knew that the
interviewing and deciding would be done by the HN community."
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11440627](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11440627)

[1] "Anybody who applies to HN in public this way is putting both themselves
and their baby in a super vulnerable position. We're going to rise to the
occasion by being not only civil, but nice."
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11440627](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11440627)

[2] "It’s easy to form some really bad habits when you sit in a position of
power to judge the potential of a person, a team, an idea and their
execution—believing that you know better and focusing your time on finding
weakness."
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11440843](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11440843)

------
hueving
Pinboard is an old company and not a startup in the sense of the SV term. It's
just a small business that manipulated the community. I'm a bit disappointed
that it received any money. :(

Democracy has to be more than 2 wolves and sheep deciding what's for dinner.

------
genericpseudo
Sadly, regrettably, insufficient. You've just, finally, made good on the
original terms; you haven't dealt with the insults thrown at Maciej's
character. I would hope that you would have realized that was necessary too.

> If any of you have suggestions for how to do better, I'd like to hear them.

Y Combinator needs an impartial, independent ombudsman dedicated to tackling
implicit and explicit bias both within the YC application process and,
especially, on Hacker News itself.

