

German council ditching OpenOffice to go back to Microsoft - EdwardQ
http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/open-source/3411718/openoffice-shortcomings-forcing-german-council-go-back-microsoft/

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jiggy2011
Do any of you technical types still use a word processor on a regular basis
(apart from to read documents others have sent)?

I just can't remember the last time I created a document in one.

If I want to communicate, a plain text email is fine.

Want to collaborate on a document? Wiki or git versioned text file is better.

Want to publish something for others? Wordpress or straight HTML is better.

Want to make a posh looking document? LaTeX generated PDF is better.

~~~
sliverstorm
_Want to collaborate on a document?_

 _Want to make a posh looking document?_

I'd like to live in this world of yours, where everybody is comfortable with
Wiki, git, and even LaTeX.

Seriously, even most technical types cry out in dismay when they try LaTeX.

~~~
Swizec
LaTeX is one of those things somebody helps you with. Check any professor's
book and there will be a dedication to the guy who helped them put it all into
proper LaTeX.

~~~
pseut
This is only true of very senior faculty these days, at least in Econ,
Statistics, Math, etc.

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SeanDav
MS Office, (especially Excel and Word) is some of the best software ever
developed. Excel is a fantastically powerful and flexible system and honestly,
beyond basic spreadsheet/word processor use, nothing comes close to MS Office.

I was kind of hoping that OpenOffice use in Germany would be a success but
really can not see how it can compete with MS Office, except on sticker price.

~~~
mbq
No, it's the most genius software product ever because it is like a drug -- it
attracts newcomers with a seemingful ease, then sucks all their life juices
into managing larger documents, finally lefts them with a load of experience,
skills and already made docs that only work in Office and cannot be possibly
replicated (Office formats and algorithms are build purely of quirks and
leaking heuristics).

------
ZeroGravitas
Strange that if you create a Word Processing format so byzantine that even the
combined might of IBM, Sun, Google and the open source community can't reverse
engineer it, (and that you yourself struggle with when porting to Mac OS X or
Win 8 RT) that the result is people considering you the safe option for their
government data.

~~~
pmelendez
Sorry if I am wrong, but as far as I know, Office Open XML specification is
public since 2007, precisely the version referred in the article.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML>

~~~
gioele
Microsoft Office do not produce or read Office Open XML files as defined in
the OOXML ISO standard. They produce something that looks similar but not
quite right. The same thing happens with the older formats, they are not
produced or read in the way it is written in the published specifications.

[1] <http://techrights.org/2010/05/31/formats-red-herring/>

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML#Application_su...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML#Application_support)

~~~
tzs
The same thing also happens with OpenOffice/LibreOffice and the ISO ODF spec.
In practice, this is not a big problem with either OpenOffice/LibreOffice and
ODF, or Microsoft Office and OOXML, because the deviations from the spec are
minor. For instance, almost all the deviations in Office from OOXML
transitional are due to last minute changes in the values of some attributes.

BTW, don't cite techrights.org. They are one of the most unreliable sources of
information on the net.

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wlesieutre
I use LibreOffice on my own computers. If I ever had to exchange documents
with anyone else, I don't think I would.

A friend and I were trying to pick a format to use for some files we're
jointly working on via Dropbox, and .docx was not sharing well between
multiple pieces of software. I don't know whether Pages on his iPad was more
of a problem than LibreOffice, but either way, we settled on Markdown. It's
simple, has 100% compatible editors on all platforms, and works just fine for
simple documents.

~~~
halter73
If you are working with people using Markdown editors built on top of
different libraries, they might not really be 100% compatible. John Gruber's
spec leaves quite a few ambiguities.

[http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/faq.html#what-are-
some-...](http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/faq.html#what-are-some-
examples-of-interesting-divergences-between-implementations)
[http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/10/the-future-of-
markd...](http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/10/the-future-of-
markdown.html)

~~~
wlesieutre
I'd been editing the markdown directly in MarkdownPad, which seemed to behave
as I would expect it with nested lists. Not sure what's available in the way
of iPad clients (since I don't have one), but that's disappointing to hear
that they might be inconsistent.

------
kghose
I have to say, I sympathize with them. I tried libreoffice, but I just could
not keep it up. MS Word is annoying enough for me, LibreOffice adds that extra
annoyance. I just wish we could move to a markup system like markdown or
restructured text with split editors that generate the document on the fly on
a different pane. Plain text! Plain text!

~~~
smutticus
If you use a Mac I cannot recommend OmmWriter enough.
<http://www.ommwriter.com/>

~~~
maguay
OmmWriter is on Windows too, and is especially great there since there's a
dearth of plain writing apps on PCs.

------
mkhattab
The obvious problem I think, notwithstanding the fork of OpenOffice, is that
MS Office is the de-facto standard and it's not in the interest of MS to have
the compatibility gap closed. The critical issue with OpenOffice is rooted in
Cat String Theory. Compatibility with MS Office is the driving force for
development and it's not producing the best UI/UX experience.

I think LibreOffice needs to step out of the shadow of MS Office.

------
monsterix
Strange they didn't even consider Google Docs or web for the purpose. It is
quite understandable that experience with OpenOffice is not as smooth as it is
with Microsoft's word or Apple's iWork, but why not give web a chance and then
decide this?

As it is Governments are supposed to explore all options and then choose the
'technically acceptable most economical' option? I think Google docs will be
sweet and better in some ways for the council, considering that these entities
are in dire need of more collaboration.

Just my 0.02 cents.

~~~
mryan
I doubt that many European government organisations would be allowed to use a
SaaS app provided by a US company, purely for data protection reasons. There
are rules surrounding where personal information may be stored - due to, among
other things, the USA PATRIOT act, the US is not usually an option for
organisations that deal with personal info.

~~~
anonymous
Can't you run a private installation of Google Docs?

~~~
icebraining
No, there's no Google Docs "appliance". It's their cloud or nothing.

~~~
ygra
In fact, I think Microsoft is trying to push into that niche with their Office
365 which complies with European Privacy law. An opportunity Google might just
have missed.

------
noeleon
Not surprising. Been through many MS -> OO and back again with various
organisations throughout the years. OO is good if -everyone- uses OO.

In most organisations you get some genius who develops a fancy-smancy
spreadsheet, visio diagram or word document with linked data which will be
dependent on the MS access runtime, this gets distributed to all the OO users
and it just doesn't work.

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brudgers
_"Numerous statements concerning LibreOffice and Apache OpenOffice are
incorrect or outdated," they said in the letter, adding that the support of
LibreOffice and OpenOffice is at a professional level these days. "The
assessment of the evaluation that compatibility to Microsoft Office cannot be
reached in the next few years, is also wrong," they said._

This is not the best way to respond to losing a customer. Though a lack of
customer relations is in favor of participation in an ideology is one of
FOSS's great weaknesses.

The Council changed vendors. They had no choice because Open Office was killed
off.

------
acc00
I wonder why SoftMaker doesn't push itself in its home market hard enough.
They are at least not worse than Open/LibreOffice.

On a different note, it surprises me there doesn't seem to be any effort on a
LyX-like editor, probably less tied to LaTeX (LyX already has to do a lot
itself, it even got at least one renderer (LyXHTML) that doesn't involve LaTeX
at all).

That would be a word processor I'd use (otherwise it is as jiggy2011 says).

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sandGorgon
I see a lot of comments here, decrying the decision based on a mere word
processor. Do also note the problems with the spreadsheet part which, as
quoted, is much worse.

I can completely sympathize with being forced to abandon Linux itself because
of its inability to compete with Excel. There simply is no _compatible_
alternative to excel

I'm willing to bet that it was a bigger factor than word processing.

------
mseebach2
_Since then, the city noticed that it has been far from ideal to use only
OpenOffice for digital correspondence. Microsoft Office for instance is the
standard for external communication, the council said._

Well, ur doin it wrong. There are vastly superior alternatives to the workflow
I think this implies (e-mailing attached documents around).

~~~
bruceboughton
Such as?

~~~
mseebach
For sending out "letterhead" documents, embrace the medium instead and have
some nice HTML email templates made. If you must, send PDFs.

For collaboration workflows, use wiki-style platforms.

------
mtgx
Considering public institution are using taxpayers' money, I think all of them
should be using open source software, for both budget reasons and in principle
(to help grow the _public_ open source community, and then benefit from it in
the long term).

The problem here also sounds like somebody was trying to use Microsoft Office
docs in an older version of Open Office. So they were the ones locking
themselves in before, and now their solution for having hassle-free work is to
reward Microsoft for it, and lock themselves back in? It's like a drug addict
who thinks withdrawing is too painful, so might as well continue taking the
drugs.

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
I've used both OpenOffice and MS Office for extended periods and I can
honestly say that MS Office is significantly better.

Yes you can do pretty much anything you need to do in OpenOffice but if you
spend a significant amount of time using them then the little bits of polish
in MS Office really add up and for a tool you use a lot that's a big deal.

And that goes directly to the budget reasons you mention. As a developer I
wanted the best tools for the job, I didn't want the cheapest tool, I wanted
the ones that allowed me to be most productive because that saved money. I
don't see any reason why my standard as a tax payer should be different - I
want people working on my behalf to have the best tools for the job, so they
can do the best job for me.

I'd love it if Open Office was as good as MS Office but it isn't and until
that changes, it's a bit more complex than you're making out.

~~~
kimmel
And your anecdotal account of OpenOffice vs MS Office is supposed to mean
something to the rest of us?

It is one persons opinion, are you a recognized authority in usability of
desktop applications? Can you provide non-biased large scale research studies
with clear and concise points of why MS's solution is better?

Here is my counter point. I have been using office suites since 'Display Write
4' for MS-DOS in the 80s. I have taught classes on advanced document
production using open source software. I have converted hundreds of users to
Linux and the only complaints I get about office suites are why are MS formats
so incompatible with everything else.

~~~
rmrfrmrf
I want to live in whatever world these people are in where they can just throw
up their hands and say, "gee-wiz, why can't EVERYONE just use open source
software?" Usually that "incompatible" industry standard document contains
_real_ information that needs to be presented accurately. OpenOffice just
brings headaches and unnecessary phone calls/e-mails.

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nnnnni
The frustrating thing is that people think that they have to use a word
processor where a simple text editor would suffice.

~~~
andybak
Do you mean that formatting itself is superfluous or that everyone should
learn something like Markdown?

I'm a geek and I don't particularly enjoy using Markdown. I know wysiwyg
editors can be frustrating but solve that problem rather than reverting to the
modern equivalent of Wordstar formatting codes in some fit of neo-ludditism.

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smartwater
LibreOffice is fantastic, give it a try

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dsego
Why aren't we using HTML for documents yet?

