

Ultra-Orthodox Jews to Hold Big Meeting on Internet Risks - iProject
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/18/nyregion/ultra-orthodox-jews-will-meet-at-citi-field-to-discuss-internet-dangers.html?_r=1&ref=technology

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jk215
Setting regulations you want your own community to abide by is fine and dandy.
That sounds like what they are doing. The minute you try to expand those on
everyone else is when you need to shut the fuck up. Just stay away from that
line ultra-orthodox jews and you will be fine.

~~~
officialchicken
The hasids are definitely against integration with society as a whole. Here's
a recent example about putting signs up for women and men to NOT be on the
same side of the street.
[http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/34/41/dtg_hasidicsidewa...](http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/34/41/dtg_hasidicsidewalks_2011_10_14_bk.html)

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dannyc
To understand what the ultra-orthodox have against the internet you must first
understand the ultra-orthodox. (I am NOT ultra-orthodox, but understand them
well.)

1) Time waster: Ultra-Orthodox Jew's believe that it's Gods will to study
Torah for as much time as possible. \--Internet usage very easily turns into a
a huge time waster. How many times have you found yourselves hours later in
the same spot reading a blog or youtube video which you had no intention to
see when you sat down at the computer? "Just one more link...", "Just one more
video..". 2) Smut: Ultra-Orthodox Jew's aspire to purity of thought and
vision. \--Fact- The Internet is FULL of easy to access smut from the privacy
and anonymity of your home. 3) Womens attire: Have you ever seen how Ultra-
orthodox women dress? That's right, they cover their hair with a hat or wig,
wear long skirts, stockings and long sleeves even in the summer. Ultra-
orthodox Jews believe it's inappropriate to gaze at women especially if they
are not dressed according to their standards. \--News flash- women of the
world don't dress like that. The internet is full of pictures, and
unsurprisingly, the women in them are not blurred out. 4) Values: Ultra-
orthodox are very insular. They stubbornly attempt to maintain their
traditional values and educate their children with those values, many of which
are not in tandem with the values of society at large. \--The internet is
place where ideas and values are freely expressed. While generally thought of
as a good thing- Ultra-Orthodox Jews see this as a risk since it is a place
where they cannot control the education given to their children.

Of those points I think only point 4 could be the basis for a strong counter-
argument. An alternative solution would be to expose their children to all
freedoms of expression the internet has to offer and to explain why they feel
their own point-of-view is correct. But to do that they will still need to
figure out how to address points 1-3.

As the article stated the idea is to make people aware of the risks that
unrestricted access to the Internet poses both to adults and to children. And
to give them tools and ideas how to live with (or without) the internet in a
effective and safe way. Internet addiction is a real thing as are the risks to
children (not just Ultra-Orthodox Jew's children.) The purpose here is not to
limit internet usage in the world or to impose a national censor but to
protect their own community from the risks they see as evident.

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lupatus
Something interesting to think about:

The Amish not only heavily restrict their member's Internet access, but
commonly eschew the Internet altogether.

According to the 2010 census, there were 249000 Amish in the USA [1] and their
population is doubling at the rate of about every 14 years. If you suppose
that they will maintain that birth rate (which it seems likely to me that they
will because they maintained about that birth throughout the past 100+ years
of societal and technological development), and you simply extrapolate that
out (which has its own merits and demerits, I know), you get about 1.6 billion
Amish by the end of the century [2]. Regardless of whether or not the Amish
grow to be just that large of a group, it seems to me that they will
substantial demographic in the USA during the latter half of the 21st Century.

What will a voting block that big in the USA do with things like Internet
regulation? How soon until Google Translate supports Pennsylvania Deutsch as a
language option? When will we see HN discussing startups targeting the Amish
market?

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish>

[2]Year Amish Population

2010 249000

2024 498000

2038 996000

2052 1992000

2066 3984000

2080 7968000

2094 15936000

Edit: Updated for formatting

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scott_s
I find it extraordinarily unlikely because of the Amish's lifestyle.

The Amish do not eschew technology because they think it is evil. They have,
actually, adopted some modern technology in their communities with restricted
access. They eschew technology because they rationally recognize that adopting
it will significantly change their lifestyle.

The kind of population increases you're talking about would require them to
have cities - they would need communities with greater density. Individuals
would also have to start specializing in much the same way modern cities do.
That's the sort of thing they do not want.

Something would have to give. If such an expansion of their population
happened, they would not be recognizably "Amish" anymore.

~~~
lupatus
At first glance, my reaction was also, "No way, not happening."

But, I know some Amish and former-Amish personally and can attest that they
think it is part of their Christian duty to "be fruitful and multiply." I also
know that they are busy establishing new colonies in unconventional locations
like Alaska. Additionally, they are branching into non-agrarian businesses
like construction and furniture in order to support their large families.

With the population of the USA mostly moving to urban areas, the prices of
farmland and rural real estate has been dropping. In some regions, the Amish
are already scooping that up.

What I wonder is if the Amish will continue to let us "English" develop
whatever technologies that we want or if they will impose restrictive
regulations.

It could be very strange if Kurzweil's Singularity comes in 2050, but a large
chunk of the population is living as if it were 1850 and just ignores the
Singularity.

~~~
scott_s
Very interesting, and I admit I had not considered it. But I still feel that
once their communities grow that large, they will become less "Amish" in
nature. But, we shall see.

~~~
lupatus
Ha! So, I can't count apparently. That was 15 million as the final number in
the table.

The Amish don't get to 1.5 billion until 2186.

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xal
It's fine that they want to figure out what the internet means for them, as
long as they are not going to try to impose those positions unto others.

Given that they haven't even managed to will themselves into basic decency
towards their own women I have my doubts here.

~~~
freshhawk
> as long as they are not going to try to impose those positions unto others

I got the impression they had figured out what the internet means for them for
the most part. This meeting is to figure out how best to "help" those poor
people suffering from too much free speech and information.

The statistics showing a strong inverse correlation between access to
information and church attendance/religious belief has not been lost on church
leaders of all faiths. What can be done about it is a pretty major subject of
discussion right now (What should be done is already decided, whatever needs
to be done to stop people leaving churches, there are souls at stake, all else
is secondary)

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tokenizer
Some people are scared of information, scared of facts and ideas. While I
think the internet is filled mostly with petty arguments and cat pictures,
this lends to the evidence that the internet is a source of power.

~~~
joshu
I agree. I also think the internet is dangerous, if you haven't got good
information hygiene and a proper information immune system going. I'm serious.

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zerostar07
It's a good thing that with the Pirate parties growing across the world,
people are going to be better informed about the importance of freedom in
information exchange.

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ShabbyDoo
Anyone here who self-identifies as an ultra-orthodox Jew who can explain
concerns about the internet in the context of his own belief system?

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sohn
lol jews did wtc

~~~
rmc
This is a racist and vile comment that has no place in civil society or
hackernews. Please leave.

~~~
zerostar07
This is exactly the kind of censorship we are talking about. Attack the
comment, not the man

~~~
rmc
What? Who is we?

HN is not a "say what ever you want" zone. There are community guidelines. If
you don't like it, this sit itsnt for you.

