
A Lonely Plea: ‘Anybody Need a Grandma for Christmas?’ - danso
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/us/grandma-for-christmas.html
======
Waterluvian
I've tried to be open and generous to others during the holidays and it almost
always results in serious awkwardness. There's a matchmaking problem here. I
wish I could magically know who in the neighbourhood I could just knock on the
door of and say hi and invite them to the extra seat at our table.

I've had luck at retirement homes. And holy cow if you have little kids, you
are so welcome there (as long as you've met the administration and they feel
comfortable with you). Joy disobeys the laws of thermodynamics and young
children effortlessly generate joy in the elderly.

~~~
forgotmypw
What is so horrible about awkwardness?

I've witnessed people talk about it like it's the plague.

It's just a bit of discomfort, and then you move on.

~~~
nothrabannosir
The point of social interactions is to connect with someone. If most of an
interaction is awkward, you're not connecting. At that rate, you're just
wasting time, and might as well do something alone.

In the context of TFA, connecting is about filling a need for social
interaction. That cannot be filled by awkwardness.

If it's business or there's some other ulterior motive: sure.

~~~
rexpop
Awkwardness is due to lack of social graces, and communication skills. Perhaps
one can train on these in the absence of other, live humans--read, for
example, "How to Work a Room," or "The Fine Art of Smalltalk"\--but
ultimately, one must learn to navigate awkwardness.

In fact, I might go so far as to argue that the "connection" you're talking
about is generated only by _resolving awkwardness_. Where there's none to
resolve, there's no connection to be made. Relationships worn smooth by years
of resolution aren't valuable in the same way.

~~~
closeparen
You can effortfully apply all the social graces and make correct small talk,
and still come away from an interaction thinking, “that was excruciating.”
These situations can be even more awkward than when someone actually commits a
faux pas.

------
ngngngng
Shout out to religion here. Everyone in my faith is assigned one or two people
to "minister" to and everyone also has someone ministering to them. Instant
friends. And no need for the elderly to be completely alone and have to turn
to craigslist. I can't imagine this need going unfilled in the structure of my
local church community.

Obviously with the decline of religion, this situation will only become more
common. People need a built in community structure, and nothing has stepped up
to replace church yet. I don't think r/atheism is going to fill that void
anytime soon.

~~~
Scarblac
I wish there was a practical way to keep these parts of religion without
having to believe in the supernatural or the truth of one specific ancient
book.

~~~
gxon
I think you can, but I wonder if it's possible to separate the positive role
of religion with what makes it toxic, even in secular form.

In particular, I think one of most toxic aspects is exclusion. If a person
doesn't conform to a certain set of ideas or lifestyles, then you're not
welcome to participate in the community. In extreme cases, exclusion could
even mean execution. Our history (and present) are full of examples of this,
which is why secularism and separation of church and state are such important
ideas.

But at the same time, this known conformity to a shared set of ideas is what
creates such a strong community. Even if a person is a stranger, you generally
know how to interact with them if you have a shared religion. This eases
social interaction and helps create a foundation of trust in larger groups
where you can't intimately know every person. In fact, the tighter you
constrict what people are allowed to believe or how they're allowed to live,
the less unknowns and the greater the benefit.

Of course, this creates some horrifying situations for people can't or won't
conform to the rules of the community around them. An obvious example is
homosexuals born into religions that don't see that as an acceptable
lifestyle. At best, they spend their lives in a state of constant shame and
self-disgust, maybe suffering under clumsy attempts to "pray the gay away".

This is the first time I've tried to put words to this idea, so I may not be
expressing it well or hitting the truth quite right.

~~~
kharak
I like your thoughts on this. Have to disagree about exclusion being the
problem.

If community is a product, exclusion is it means of production. The problem
with religion isn't exclusion, it's a partially outdated set of rules by which
the filter is applied. (And a missing update functionality for the source
code, respectively an inherit problem with the rate of change, as too much
change in too short of a time defeats the purpose of rules, exclusivity and
therefore community).

------
lordleft
I come from a family of immigrants. Growing up, I at times felt oppressed by
the constant throng of cousins and uncles and aunts and family friends at our
home...but now that I'm older I greatly appreciate the dense social fabric
that envelops my life. I sometimes think that the dark side of a society that
extols individuality and independence is the possibility of immense
alienation. I'm grateful to live in a country that creates space for self-
expression and agency, but I sometimes think that for those who are not used
to being part of a big community, life can become quite lonely.

~~~
dorchadas
It's something I'm struggling with now, tbh. I'm not an immigrant but my
extended family is fairy close, even out to second cousins (my grandmother's
brothers are super close to her, so our families get along; same with part of
my grandfather's siblings), and I know I'll miss it. Yet, sadly, there's not
many jobs here and if I stay I'll likely stay teaching, which isn't bad but
I'm not sure how I long I'd last before burnout.

I've got an offer to leave and study Quantitative Finance in a completely
different country (one I want to move to and have visited many times) and am
wondering if it's worth it. Man, it's difficult. Not to mention all my friends
being here too (though I do have some in the new country, thankfully). Having
that social inclusion and closeness is super nice, and I know I'd miss it.

------
afarrell
As an immigrant (moved US->Southeast London) who probably won't be able to
have kids, I find that I really wish there was a way to become an 'uncle'
somehow. Modern society gives us a lot of choice and mobility, but also a lot
of ways to find ourselves unrooted.

~~~
danharaj
The LGBTQ community originated the concept of "Chosen Family", people you
willfully make a connection with as deep as blood family ties. As you can
imagine, this is a particularly pressing need for people who are forcefully
severed from their families, often at a very young age.

Some of us have to work mindfully to get something many people take for
granted. Hopefully naming the idea gives you a way to talk about it with other
people.

~~~
Izkata
> The LGBTQ community originated the concept of "Chosen Family", people you
> willfully make a connection with as deep as blood family ties.

I thought that started with the mafia..

~~~
Scarblac
Maybe in the future, the mafia will specialise in the two things it's really
good at, pizza delivery _and_ helping people find social connections as deep
as blood family ties?

~~~
jameskegel
I needed this.

------
TeMPOraL
Interesting to see this here tonight. Just a few hours ago, my wife mentioned
to me what she heard from some nurses: apparently, Christmas is one of the
busiest times in hospitals, because a lot of people with elderly parents and
grandparents would invent illnesses (or even cause them, by e.g. hiding or
substituting medicine) to get them admitted to hospitals during Christmas,
just to avoid having to have a Christmas dinner.

She also told me that some time ago, there was an ad aired about this problem
in Poland; it featured an elderly man who tried, year after year, to invite
his family for Christmas, to no effect. He eventually posted a notice about
his own funeral, and as the family came and was surprised to see him alive, he
brought in the dinner and said, "because that was the only way I could get you
here".

Stories like this make me sick in my stomach. No matter the bad blood that can
be present in a family, I just can't imagine how one can treat one's own
parents this way.

~~~
jupiter90000
It's not the kids responsibility to make sure their grown adult parents have a
social life. That's even more depressing.

I totally understand where people are coming from with that though -- the
parents gave life and raised the kids, so shouldn't the kids repay them? The
only thing is, the kids didn't (as far as we know) choose to be brought into
life and have the experiences with the family they had. Maybe they were
terrible or at best for some, neutral. Then, why would they feel the need to
"pay back" for that?

Finally, would you rather someone hang out with you because they feel guilty
obligation to do so versus happy freeness to do so? I wouldn't want someone
feeling guilted into spending time with me because they "owe me one." If it
was from a place of "happy freeness," then sure.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
> It's not the kids responsibility to make sure their grown adult parents have
> a social life. That's even more depressing.

Jesus, we're not talking about setting the parents up on dates, we're talking
about a single Christmas dinner with family.

~~~
notvplez
Honestly I would feel more comfortable managing my mothers online dating
accounts until the day she dies(not that she has any that I know of anyway)
than attending yet another christmas dinner. And I don't have any problems
with seeing my family, it's just christmas is such an awkward time all around
- to me at least.

------
eirini1
>The woman in Tulsa, who identified herself only as Carrie, said she had been
fighting cancer and was estranged from her daughter, who has refused to let
her see her granddaughter even though both live close by.

>“I really thought the feeling would go away, but my heart is so broken,” she
said in an email. She posted the ad on Dec. 11, then went to her
granddaughter’s dance studio and sat outside, hoping to catch a peek of her
through the window.

interesting that this is sprinkled in there, this is super weird boundary
breaking behavior. I wonder if its related to why they no longer talk.

~~~
mlang23
This is a pretty clear case of stalking. When children cut the connection to
their parents, it is super easy to side with the poor mother. However, people
tend to ignore that the pressure for the children must have been quite high to
go to such an extend. This makes me sad, since I know how it feels if your
parents dont respect boundaries.

------
kwijibob
Unpopular opinion, there is always more complexity and culpability in these
sentimental stories.

Even in the broken social fabric of Western culture, there are still many
opportunities to contribute to and find genuine community.

However it requires a sense of humility and focus on others overself. Among
other things.

I know of many 'lonely' people who are highly dysfunctional and have burned
their family and other communities that have tried to engage them.

Sometimes people do get a raw deal and are genuine victims. Other times people
reap the whirlwind of their own bad behaviours and attitudes. Sometimes a mix
of both. Life is messy.

------
0x8BADF00D
Just want to chime in that there is nothing wrong with spending your time
alone during the holidays. I have family but I’d rather travel during this
time for leisure. What’s so bad about being alone? I prefer it honestly. It
allows me to contemplate on the past year and reflect on myself. With family
all you will get is petty family politics, gossip, bringing up things that
happened years ago, etc.

~~~
echelon
Do this every year for the next twenty and see if you feel the same way.

In the case of elders, they often lack _any_ tangible social contact. Let
alone with that of their own families.

A small subset of people will be fine living life completely aloof, but we're
social animals -- this would drive the majority of us crazy.

------
Angostura
Anyone from the UK, I would urge to join up for
[https://www.ageuk.org.uk/services/befriending-
services/sign-...](https://www.ageuk.org.uk/services/befriending-
services/sign-up-for-telephone-befriending/)

It’s a brilliantly organized scheme - you get online training and a telephone
interview before you go live and it just requires you to give up 30 minutes of
your time a week to talk and listen for 30 minutes. I signed up and it is
brilliant- and so well organized

------
rb808
One thing I don't understand about American culture is thanksgiving and how it
interracts with Christmas. If your family meets up for thanksgiving does that
mean Christmas isn't so important to meet up with extended family?

We have an elderly neighbour who has 3 children and I'm horrified to find out
she'll be alone at Christmas, but they all met up just a few weeks ago so I'm
not sure if its normal or not.

~~~
toasterlovin
As an American, I wish we would just combine Thanksgiving and Christmas and
take a week off. The mere month between major holidays is weird. And,
culturally, Christmas is a bigger deal, but Thanksgiving has the guaranteed
long weekend, so it’s the one you can count on traveling for.

~~~
Marsymars
Or move it to October, like Canada, since Americans don't seem to get a
holiday in October.

------
aussiegreenie
I host Christmas Orphans parties. Anyone who does not have a place can come
and have lunch.

------
YarickR2
God I need one . So damn lonely in the LA suburbs; moved from Russia, no
friends, no coworkers, no relatives, basically it'll be a usual day in the
office for me. I could cook a meal, but I have noone to share it with.

~~~
ryaan_anthony
Living in a densely populated city like LA just compounds the loneliness as
you are constantly surrounded by happy people and groups of friends/family. I
went through it myself for a few years. The best thing i did was to go find a
random spot to eat out. Eating alone used to be really hard for me, but i got
over it and i would come home feeling 100% better mood.

------
spodek
People will likely create an app for this, not realizing they're contributing
to the culture creating situations like this.

------
brenden2
These are the kinds of problems I’d love to be able to figure out how to solve
with technology.

~~~
adventskalender
Isn't that basically what dating apps are trying to do? I think "lighter"
variants exists, for meeting friends, not just dates.

Not that the situation couldn't be improved, though.

------
jchallis
My mom must feel this lonely during the holidays . Simply brutal.

~~~
choeger
I have to wonder why you notice this and write it here? Can't you or don't you
want to connect to her?

~~~
jchallis
Families often have more than two people and sympathy for their feelings means
sometimes folks get left out. If your family gets to avoid this pain , count
an extra blessing this holiday .

------
adventskalender
Why not meet up with other people in the same situation (possibly also
elderly)?

I have at times invited friends who didn't want to celebrate with their
family. But a complete stranger would be too much for me (with little
children).

------
fortran77
I'm not Christian, so I may have some terms wrong here, but:

Isn't Christmas a religious holiday? Can she not attend a mass or a Christmas
service and participate in Church events around the holidays? Isn't this one
of the main functions the Church provides? Wouldn't there be many
opportunities in nearly any Church for social activities?

My local Jewish minyan is having an event tonight with a public menorah
lighting, traditional food, games (including an Oculus VR Hanukkah
experience!). There were plenty of opportunities to meet people the past few
days and during the week. That's one of the functions of a religious
community. We sent out public notices on Nextdoor, etc, and invited everybody
in the community.

~~~
Swizec
As someone who grew up in europe, let me introduce you to the wonderful world
of catholic atheism. We celebrate christmas, easter, and have saint nick. We
even know all the stories and the lessons.

But we never go to church and don’t believe god exists. Or at least the
stories are just stories and lessons, not reality. It’s a cultural thing.
Tradition.

In Slovenia where I’m from some 65% of the population self identifies as
Christian, but only 32% believe in there being any form of higher power.

~~~
paol
Don't know why you're being downvoted, that's a pretty accurate description of
christianity in most of Europe.

I grew up in a family that self identified as catholic, I was baptized, and
yet we never went to church and frankly religion is not something that was
ever a subject of much discussion or interest in the family.

------
hackedoff
I was reading this post and found it interesting enough to reply too. I am
also a grandma so I know what pleasure it is. I had a son and a daughter, my
son died when he was in his early 20's, he had one daughter that I do not get
to see. I was blessed with a daughter that shared her kids with me, I always
thanked her and I knew without a doubt I was very blessed. 14 and a half years
I pretty much raised these kids, I didn't ask to but was more than happy to do
so. Mom and dad were good parents until my son died then the second child was
born and something happened. They weren't interested in the kids at all, they
were consumed with computer games. Then came a third child, my daughter kept
getting more and more violent toward me but as long as it was toward me we
were fine I just wanted the kids to be safe. Long story short, after 14 and a
half years of being with these kids daily, living with the girls the last 2
years my daughter turned into someone I didn't recognize anymore, she was
violent toward me and the kids. We lived in the same house I was in the
basement they were upstairs, I kept the payment up on the house and other
bills because they wouldn't they took my money but didn't pay the bills. It
got very dangerous with my daughter so I tried to help my grandkids. In the
emotional state of mind I was in everything I did turned out backwards.My
daughter lied of course to everyone said I was controlling and wouldn't let
her raise her kids. I am sure she looked this stuff up on line. I fell apart
because of what my daughter was saying. I ended up seeing a councellor trying
to get back on track, dfs gave the kids back to mom and dad, mom and dad high
tailed it out of the state with the kids leaving behind loans they took out
and never repaid. With the help of DFS and other people my son in law and
daughter were able to change the kids, immediately I hesitate to put this in
here because I have been accused of so many things in order to make me look
bad. Mom and dad left the state and I have tried to talk to the kids on
pinterest but they told on me. Im guessing that's how they get their
attention. I worrt about them daily how is this going to affect them, I have
had the hardest time understanding how you could turn one human against
another, the parents and others told the two girls that grandma didn't want
them, they made the girls feel like I didn't love them and I never did. They
have somehow convinced these two girls of this. I have not been allowed to see
these kids in two years, this has actually been harder to deal with than my
sons death. My sister is on GitHub here and she creates hacks to watch me
constantly. The harrassment has been horrible. Its been very heartbreaking and
eye opening. Parents can have mental problems but if they have never been
arrested for drugs then they are good people. My heart has just been
shattered, I used to sit along the bus route hoping to see their bus go by
just to get the tiniest glimpse, I meant no harm I was just so homesick for
them. Lately I have been needing to hear their voices. Im deemed as a bad
grandma but I never lied I never did anything against my daughter I didn't
even bye presents for them without asking. So the point of this post don't
always assume grandma has done wrong just because mommy said she did, maybe
mommy has some problems of her own. I feel so badly for any grandmother that
has to be away from their grandkids right now. Have a merry Christmas and
thanks for letting me post!

------
didibus
Sometimes I feel it's only the crappy people who need families. The people not
enjoyable enough for others to willingly choose to put up with them, they need
a form of forced social duty and enact it through guilt and pitty.

That said, especially for elderly people, it could just be circumstances of
life that has played into them being lonely.

The issue is, if I'm to open up and invite a stranger in, how do I know which
category they belong in? I feel probability wise, chances are they're of the
former, and are probably boring, judgmental, uptight, have issues, etc. Which
is why they're lonely in the first place.

So while I'd be okay opening up to lovely people, the risk of doing so is too
high right now, without it happening organically.

~~~
wyqydsyq
I've seen people saying elsewhere this story was shared that they lived in the
area and replied to the CL post, the lady turned out to be some crazy nutjob
and it became apparent that there were very good reasons that she had nobody
to spend Christmas with.

~~~
astura
It's clear just from the NY Times article she was the problem and there's good
reasons people don't want to be around her. Most people don't take estranging
their parents lightly, especially when they have young children.

------
jelliclesfarm
I really dislike emotional article titles like this.

There is a bond or there isn’t. Honestly, I feel like it’s better if we can
‘retire’ emotionally like we do from a job. Getting old is inevitable(for
now)..when someone is in their 60s-70s, their children are probably in their
middle age dealing with their own families and crises.

Children are insurance for our genetic material. Not financial or emotional
crutches. Some might not feel that way, but I think having expectations and
cultivating detachment as one grows older is a better attitude. Heck! I have
been trying to cultivate detachment from the time I hit 35 and it’s a process.
I hope to get it right by my 5th or 6th decade, at least!

------
fizixer
Any loneliness discussion is incomplete in today's age, especially on a forum
like HN, without a discussion on AI/conversation-bots.

