
China to take on Boeing, Airbus with new passenger jet - jinst8gmi
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/02/asia/china-new-c919-passenger-jet/index.html
======
bigethan
"The lack of certification from the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)
is seen as a major hindrance for international sales."

no kidding.

China's current reputation (fast and default to crappy quality without extreme
oversight) doesn't really fit what I'd want out of an airliner.
Optimistically, this project succeeds and changes a bit of the culture around
quality and shortcuts in manufacturing. If "Made in China" could gain some
equivalence to "Made in Germany" without exploding their cost structure.
That'd be an interesting world.

~~~
yc1010
Well "Made in Germany" brand took on a hammering, the only other country
manufacturing planes en masse is Russia, but their plane safety record speaks
for itself.

It will be a steep hill for China to climb, the question really is how much
technology and knowhow was "appropriated"

Cheap toys and phones is one thing, planes are another

~~~
blumkvist
There are two major aerospace companies, neither of which is German. Boeing is
from the US and Airbus is from France.

Civilian aircraft production in Russia is practically non-existent.

~~~
ucaetano
Airbus is based in France, but it's actually an European consortium, with
manufacturing facilities across the continent (and in China).

------
UnoriginalGuy
The line about lacking an FAA certification is odd. This aircraft couldn't
possibly have an FAA certification yet, it hasn't even had its first test
flight.

They have a basic certification from the Civil Aviation Authority of China
(CAAC) which will allow them to conduct test flights and similar.

They are partnering with Ryanair (mostly inter-europe flights) and even Airbus
expects them to compete outside of China by 2020.

As to quality question: China produces both high AND low quality even if
they're "known" for low quality. For example that iPhone in your pocket:
China. Many chip fabricators: China. High end batteries: China. Etc. If china
needs high quality, they will attain it.

There's no specific reason, aside from time, why China cannot be a legitimate
competitor for international aircraft.

~~~
wycx
Fabricators of chips you are familiar with: Taiwan. Most of the Chinese
fabless SoC companies (Allwinner, Rockchip etc.) aren't getting their chips
fabbed by Chinese owned fabs. Most of those cheap chinese phones have Mediatek
SoCs, from Taiwan.

------
adaml_623
I know their planes are a tiny bit smaller but has anyone not heard of Embraer
planes?

They've sold over a thousand of these jets but CNN don't think they are worth
mentioning?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_E-
Jet_family#E-190_and...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_E-
Jet_family#E-190_and_195)

~~~
aeharding
My OCD now wants an aircraft manufacturer starting with a D.

Airbus-Boeing-Comac-D????-Embraer.

Who wants the D?

~~~
ant6n
Dumbardier

~~~
goatforce5
Bombardier is currently being bailed out by the Quebec government to the tune
of $1bn, so that's another (almost) D company that's not doing so great:

[http://business.financialpost.com/investing/trading-
desk/bom...](http://business.financialpost.com/investing/trading-
desk/bombardier-inc-could-need-a-second-bailout-within-12-18-months-
scotiabank)

------
crimsonalucard
[http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/709422/another-woman-killed-
in-...](http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/709422/another-woman-killed-in-china-in-
elevator-accident-this-time)

China can't even make an escalator or elevator safe. I'm ethnically chinese,
but I wouldn't set a foot on a chinese plane.

~~~
cttet
I did a little bit research and found the escalator is from Otis. Of course
there are management and maintenance issues, but it is not related to the
product quality Chinese-branded plane.

And if you are buying cheap product or using a cheap service, don't expect it
to be the same quality as the expensive counter parts.

------
6stringmerc
Interesting, and I hope their aviation industry can do well at home before it
decides to go international. Sometimes things crash during R&D. Admitting
failure isn't something I've come to expect from China's authorities and
media, personally speaking.

Unfortunately for China, the problem in the world and coming years isn't a
lack of aviation manufacturers, it's a lack of _aviators_ [0]!

I've got several commercial airline professionals in my family (all retired)
and each of them is glad to be out of the industry - especially the pilots.
Working conditions went downhill. Frequent airline executive decisions
(bankruptcies / mergers) found ways to, essentially, erase agreed-upon
pensions or seniority. On and on.

Basically my understanding is that the profession of being a pilot is about
on-par with that of being a teacher: Do it because you love it, not because
the pay or working conditions are really that good. I'm not sure if it's the
same globally, but if the US isn't producing a surplus of pilots to staff the
rest of the world, I've got significant doubts that needs will be met with
qualified personnel. As in, you don't want a pilot who cheated to get into the
cockpit.

[0] [http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-03-09/asia-is-
run...](http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-03-09/asia-is-running-out-
of-pilots)

------
ww520
People think they will compete with Boeing and Airbus internationally but they
are not, at least not initially. They mainly aim at China's domestic market
which has long term high growth as more people becoming wealthier and use air
flight as a mode of transportation. Some estimate that the demand for new
planes goes into thousands in the near future. It's better to develop and buy
from a domestic manufacturer than sending the money oversea. In some sense
they are competing with Boeing and Airbus for the China's and the other
emerging markets.

------
ausjke
I read a component checklist for C919 yesterday and it seems other than the
main body, most if not all the internal pieces(including the engines) are
outsourced elsewhere.

Boeing probably does something similar, in that it acts like more of a system
designer and integrator, I recall its major software was also outsourced to
some India company for its newest model.

------
genericresponse
Anyone else wonder if much of their R&D and design on this is coming from
international espionage? Chinese exfiltration of sensitive industrial data is
becoming pretty well known.

~~~
bpp
That would probably make me feel better about getting on one of these.

~~~
mikeash
I don't know about that....

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Abyss](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Abyss)

That story is probably untrue, but the potential for similar things has to be
there.

------
robodale
Boeing and Airbus are known for quality AND reliability. Those two terms are
derived from hard data just as much as from public perception. As other's here
have said...China will face an uphill battle.

------
GordonS
What are the C919's selling point versus the Boeing 737 and Airbus A320?

~~~
Someone1234
They're trying to be the "Kia of aircraft" meaning they offer a lot of value
for a relatively low price. They're primarily targeting budget airlines.

It is a little speculatory but supposedly their average aircraft will cost $68
million Vs. $71.9m or $78.3m for a A320 and 737 respectively. So they will be
the cheapest in that line, and are trying to match or better the other two in
fuel economy, supposedly 15% more fuel efficient than the A320 [0] (but the
A320neo is meant to be more comparable).

That being said few analysts think that Comac's first attempt at commercial
success will be successful. They have a lot of obstacles to overcome. However
assuming the money doesn't dry up their second or third aircraft might be
fairly competitive.

So watch this space for the mid to late 2020s, might see Comac on the tarmac
somewhere nearby.

[0] [http://leehamnews.com/2012/01/05/c919-gains-but-loses-
advant...](http://leehamnews.com/2012/01/05/c919-gains-but-loses-advantages/)

~~~
noja
$4 million cheaper, on a $68 million price tag? Is that a typo?

~~~
AnimalMuppet
No. $4 million is a lot of money. Now imagine that you're buying 100 of them.

~~~
hugh4
Then I'm still only saving a few percent on the large amount of money I'm
spending.

And in return I not only have to deal with the risk of buying a hundred
aircraft designed and built by people who were pushing plows a couple of years
ago based on some photocopies smuggled out of Toulouse, I also have to have
the airline that people say "Oh hell no I'm not flying on that".

------
kirk21
3 years of test flights. Am I the only one that finds this a long time to test
an aircraft?

~~~
ceejayoz
Planes have pretty disastrous failure modes, and useful lifespans in the
decades. An accelerated test cycle seems... unwise.

------
lujim
So this is a competitor to the 737 and A320. Seems like a pretty crowded
market.

~~~
ucaetano
Not to mention that both 737 and A320 are fully depreciated, highly optimized
cash cows. It takes decades for a plane to reach that stage, and both Boeing &
Airbus can mass produce them with their eyes closed.

As with many other "value added" Chinese products, it might make inroads in
"friendly markets" such as Asia and Africa, but will have a very hard time
competing in the huge European and American (as in the continents) markets.

