

Beta Test: New York Startups Think Occupy Wall Street Has a Bad Pitch - alexkehayias
http://www.betabeat.com/2011/10/20/new-york-startup-world-thinks-occupy-wall-street-has-a-bad-pitch/

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Lambent_Cactus
Shorter NY Technologists: We have no theory of social change.

Which, you know, is fine. If you think the way to change the world is with
your "subscription-based site for fashion essentials" I say let a thousand
flowers bloom. But you should think twice before mouthing off to the NY
Observer, because dismissively asking "what does #OWS even stand for" sounds a
lot like "what is Twitter even good for". It's a marker that you haven't been
paying attention.

Down at Zucotti Park, people understand that in addition to the decisions that
people make individually as consumers, there are also decisions we make
collectively. And there's more to politics, which is just the name for those
decisions, than policy. Ten-point plans are nice, but the #OWS protesters are
making a powerful move just by drawing attention to a set of issues that
haven't been on the mainstream agenda. Middle class incomes have stagnated,
social mobility is down, Wall Street appears to be back at business with
little restructuring, unemployment is at 9%. The protests say, so a political
system otherwise ill-disposed to address those issues, that they _matter_, and
that there is a constituency to fix them. To their fellow citizens, the
protesters are saying "these are serious problems, and we should care about
them." If you can convince people of that last bit, and #OWS has momentum on
that score, the policies will follow.

~~~
owenjones
I gagged at the "subscription-based site for fashion essentials" part.

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drcode
Not having a coherent pitch is a defining element of OWS.

Instead, the whole point of OWS is to make sure OWS persists, in the hopes
that people keep hearing their complaint that the government is in cahoots
with big business. (whatever benefit may arise from this)

The moment someone sets up a unified OWS platform, with demands, the movement
will be over. (for good or ill.)

The funny thing to me is that their core message (government is corrupt and
helping big business) is essentially the core complaint of the Tea Partiers,
as well.

~~~
jerf
The complaints are similar, the proposed solutions are different. Broadly, the
OWS crowd proposes to solve the problem of corrupt government by making it
bigger and more powerful so it would hopefully take on corrupt Wall Street,
the Tea Party crowd would make corrupt government smaller and less powerful,
and a significant percentage of them also are in favor of making it impossible
for businesses to get "too big to fail".

~~~
jbooth
I didn't see any signs on OWS calling for "bigger, more powerful government".

Changing a tax level on bankers doesn't change the size of government -
spending does that. And OWS wants to cut from a bigger slice (defense) than
the tea party seems to (domestic discretionary).

~~~
jerf
A government that taxes more, forgives more debt at its whim, attacks bankers
in new ways, etc, is a government exercising more power than it was before. If
the protesters are not calling for government to intervene more muscularly
than it is now, who exactly are they demonstrating to?

If you want to claim that the government is already hip deep into everything
and already has a great deal of power, and consequently bears a very large
degree of responsibility for the problems we're in today, well, you're singing
my song, but you might want to run that claim past the OWS protesters. I don't
think you're going to find too many who would accept that defense. I grant you
they're an amorphous lot, but claiming they're largely libertarians wouldn't
pass the smell test. (I know 'em when I see 'em...)

~~~
jbooth
I'm not claiming they're largely libertarians. I'm saying all of the
libertarians-since-2009 are either plutocrats in disguise or being taken for a
ride. Where are they on military spending? How about the Republicans blocking
Obama's proposal to cut the payroll tax? How about immigration policy and drug
policy?

The only time I hear "small government" extolled as a virtue is in defense of
policies that screw the little guy.

The OWS people are, once again, not campaigning for "more/less government
intervention". They're campaigning against most government actions being
driven by lobbyists and campaign donations.

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inuhj
OWS not having a message is not an accident or a lack of planning...it is the
plan. They're taking a page from the book of Obama(and other politicians) by
making OWS a blank slate on to which to project your anger and unhappiness
with the "current system". This became clear to me after I became upset with
their slogan "we are the 99%". I'm upset because its an attempt to steal my
voice. I am part of the 99%--but I am not with them. They are attempting to
speak on behalf of everyone and what easier way to do that than to not have a
list of demands that can only serve to alienate your supporters and fork the
movement?

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rgbrgb
Yeah, unfortunately 50% of the companies present at that thing were glorified
advertising agencies so despite the 1 or 2 "startups for social change" the
vast majority didn't look very different ("morally") from the investment
bankers.

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JonnieCache
"Your planetwide pseudo-anarchistic emergent heterarchical meta-movement lacks
a clear organisational structure" isn't the most well thought out criticism,
whatever you think of their aims.

~~~
jerrya
Especially juxtaposed with this:

"If I wanted to go about it the right way I would get a group of people
together, break off from Occupy Wall Street, call it something else, rebrand
it and start the right way, with people who maybe have some connections in
Washington.” (lobbyists)

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alexwolfe
I keep hearing that they don't have a message but it seems like they want:

1\. Jobs 2\. Their houses back (or a house period) 3\. Taxes on the rich 4\.
Financial Regulation 5\. A government that represents the people

I agree at some point they'll need a better "pitch" but we should remember
that this movement is much more organic than a startup so it takes a lot more
time to unify thousands of people worldwide under one idea. Especially when
this movement is about many things failing not just one.

~~~
Rariel
Exactly, I agree 100%. People are out there because they are not sure what to
do but know that something very, very wrong.

I think it would be helpful if they had a leader, somebody who could
articulate the thoughts of people who are there for the right reasons (to show
their distaste of the current state of things).

It is really frustrating to hear the beneficiaries of this corruption try to
dismiss the protesters as "lazy" when I think it takes more to get your butt
outside and stay there than it does to go to work and do some busy paper
pushing.

Side note on the corruption of this country, look at the bay bridge as an
example. It's been over _20_ years since the 89 earthquake and the bridge is
still not completed. How can countries like China and France and Switzerland
manage to finish much larger and more complicated bridges in under a year.
Corruption at it's finest.

~~~
Vivtek
A Soviet minister once entertained a visiting Romanian minister, and the
visitor was duly impressed with the incredible luxury in which the Russian
lived.

"How do you manage to gather such wealth together, my friend?"

The Russian just smiled and led his visitor to the window and opened his arms
wide. "Oh, my friend, it isn't difficult for a man with connections and a
little spirit. See that bridge out there? I issued each and every construction
permit myself, and for every beam, every worker, and every rivet, I received a
little something. And here is the result."

The Romanian was quiet impressed, and thanked the Russian profusely for
sharing his technique.

Some years later, the Russian had the chance to return the visit, and came to
Bucharest. To his great surprise, his erstwhile protegé lived in a sumptuous
mansion and was able to put up an even finer meal than the one they'd shared
back in the day.

"I am very impressed, my friend," he said. "You seem to have learned quite
well."

The Romanian chuckled and led the Russian to the window. "Ha, yes - see that
bridge out there?"

The Russian just squinted.

"No."

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cienrak
I get that #OWS could use some work on the message. But isn't their whole
point to be outside traditional systems of capitalism and structure?

It's like saying, this anarchist mob isn't very organized. Well, yeah.

That being said, I agree with Meetup guy that sites like Kickstarter are
exactly the kind of peer-2-peer marketplace that could help reshape our
economy and empower the 99%.

~~~
Vivtek
Ironic, then, that Kickstarter is fending off a patent suit.

~~~
cienrak
Not ironic. Sad. Pathetic that our patent system is so broken and abused by
folks in the software space.

As per usual, these companies don't share a single line of code, and
Kickstarter was in business for years before this guy's patent was even
approved.

But somehow, he can claim to have invented crowdfunding for creative projects
-- USING A COMPUTER.

BS.

~~~
Vivtek
Quite ironic, in my view - because it's that singleminded pursuit of maximum
profit in all situations that leads the corporate mind to consider the current
patent system a Good Thing. Not because it furthers society or any such
weakminded claptrap, but because it affords one more place where rent-seeking
behavior is not only condoned but explicitly encouraged.

It's my fervent opinion that rent-seeking behavior and similar economic
dysfunction is one of chief underlying problems with economy and with society
as a whole. OWS isn't objecting to rich people in general - just to rich
people whose modus operandi is to drain resources from everybody while never
giving any back. There's no thought for the larger consequences, and the law
permits it only because most people have so far been more or less well enough
off that they don't need to bother with it.

It's all coming to a head now, though. Or so I damn well hope.

I agree wholeheartedly with your bitterness here; this is precisely my beef
with the patent system as misapplied to software - but the truth of the matter
is that mechanisms like Kickstarter would be a great way out of our societal
bind, while their actual success makes them a target for leeches.

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thwest
To me this says more about the attitudes of technologists than anything about
OWS. I also note that there is no Occupy Palo Alto going on.

Tech startups are at the bleeding edge of capitalism where it is a fun game.
Which is great to see The System work! We need a pluralist economy with all
types of organizations. Startups have to challenge existing hierarchy in
certain dimensions (business model), but strictly follow existing hierarchy in
others (profitability, exit strategy). I'll cite the pg-Monsanto event here.

There will always be a need to reconcile whatever structure exists in our
cultural hierarchy with the broad needs of everyone that has to bend to the
hierarchy we've chosen (or let happen). Athenian style democratic action is
great way to do that.

It is more meaningful to measure how cultural hierarchy responds to the
incoherence that is real democracy (considering every person's desires
equally) rather than how people's desires submit to the existing hierarchy.

