

Windows 8 - Designing for Metro style and the desktop - justanotheratom
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/31/designing-for-metro-style-and-the-desktop.aspx

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sipefree
While I think the new Metro UI is very pretty, and potentially might turn out
to be a good contender in the tablet space, I'm skeptical that their plans for
a dual system like this will work.

I'm reminded by the interviews with the original Xbox team at MS, who were
apparently shouted at by a red faced Ballmer for weeks after they said that it
wouldn't run Windows. Imagine how the Xbox's usability and popularity would
have been reduced if they tried to run the Windows desktop on it.

It seems to me that there is a huge push at the upper levels in Microsoft to
put Windows on everything.

Meanwhile, Apple realized the sad but true fact that most computer users are
completely incapable of understanding concepts like the filesystem. They made
a tablet that your granny can use without having to be taught. They made a
system as foolproof as possible, while the power users who scream "walled
garden" and "i needs my zsh shell on it!" can still use it as a casual device
and jailbreak it if they want to get the features they require.

Many in the tech media lambasted the iPad as a useless oversized iPod touch,
but look at it today. They shipped a "crippled" device that ended up being
more usable to more people than the PC has been. They also successfully
convinced users who want to be able to do things like spreadsheets and
presentations to try things like Numbers and Keynote, which were completely
redesigned for touch and work great on the device.

Microsoft hasn't realized this strategy, and I think many users will be
worried by the initial lack of apps for Metro and try to use Word and Excel on
a 10 inch touch device, and get angry with it when the UI is just too
cumbersome.

I played around with a Windows 7 tablet at PC World recently. An anti-virus
warning from McAfee or something like that was popping up and becoming modal
every time I tried to open the Start menu, then when I eventually managed to
kill it, the items in the Start menu were way too small to accurately touch.
Text input worked like crap, and IE was barely usable. Anyone buying that
device was doomed to constant frustration. (At the same time, a friend of
mine, who is a hardcore Arch Linux user and a sysadmin, went in with the
intention of getting an Eee Pad Transformer or other android tablet, and was
so disheartened by the user experience of those that he left with an iPad 2).

Really, I don't want Microsoft to fail. Many people have hated them for many
years, but these days it seems to be more pity than hate. If they released an
excellent update to Windows for the desktop, still focusing on the mouse and
keyboard, then pushed for developers to make awesome apps for Metro and had
that only on tablets, I think they would be much more likely to gain some
marketshare, especially if they pushed some cloud syncing features and
integration with other products. Of course Windows 8 will gain marketshare
anyway, I think mostly through OEM sales, but I don't think the tablet market
will pick it up like it might if they focused on a solid tablet-only OS but
played the vertical integration game with services.

Just my opinion.

~~~
bad_user
I still think the iPad is an oversized iPod that's just ridding the iPhone's
wave.

Back in the real world, grandmas don't buy gadgets or PCs, and when they do
they've got nephews to help them.

Sorry, but the iPhone/iPad are game changers because they fit in your pocket.
The Kindle is too, since it's the first rela replacement for books. The iPad
on the other hand, besides being cool, just gives me a headache.

The iPad on the other hand just gives me a headache whenever I tried using it
for more then one hour.

~~~
teyc
From what I've read, Apple started iPad development first, and then decided to
use the technology on iPhone instead.

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Flemlord
> ...if you want to stay permanently immersed in that Metro world, you will
> never see the desktop we won’t even load it (literally the code will not be
> loaded) unless you explicitly choose to go there!

This bodes well. I hope the Metro UI is as comprehensive as this implies,
where casual users will never see the old UI. If you can do it on the iPad, it
should be doable on a Win8 tablet (in the new UI).

~~~
jerhinesmith
Yeah, I read this and immediately thought of the terminal in OSX. Sure,
there's a full unix environment beneath it all, and the people that want it
(in most cases, developers) can use it. But, you can definitely use OSX, be
willfully ignorant of the terminal and/or unix, and not feel like you're
missing out.

If Microsoft can pull off a similar analog, I think this could really work.

~~~
Flemlord
The analogy that clicked with me is that Win8 is to Win7 as Windows was to
DOS. It will always be around for legacy purposes but if you're creating an
app today, you'd be crazy not to use build for Win8. And existing vendors will
eventually migrate their existing Windows apps.

~~~
crenshaw
I agree. As an app dev who builds for the iPad and its 30M users -- why
wouldn't you build for Win8 and its 100M users (if it flops) or 400M (if it
sells as projected)? Sure there are 1B+ more users out there, but given that
Win8 has the app store, I'll take the hundreds of millions with the app store.

Legacy windows slowly becomes the truck that Jobs spoke of. Metro becomes the
car. Windows, having both, becomes the SUV.

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larsberg
There's only one downside to the tile interfaces: many of the apps don't let
you customize what gets shown. Recent "issues" with my Windows Phone 7:

\- Wonder what all the fuss in that younger generation is about and take
advantage of your Zune Pass? Justin Bieber's face is now staring up at you.

\- You and the wife decide to try something "fun" and capture the moment?
Yeah, that's going to be hanging out front and center on your phone. Hope
there's nobody around next time you check for new mail!

I've actually moved both music and photos off of the start screen because of
this issue. And I assume there are other apps (i.e. do you _really_ want
people to know how many hours you've spent playing Angry Birds?) where this
will happen to people as well...

~~~
kooshball
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you dont want people to know the
music you have listened to when they have full access to your phone?

To be honest, if someone has my phone unlocked I would be more worried about
them reading my emails and messing with my facebook account than them knowing
how many hours I played Angry Bird.

Also, you can set the background of your photo app so it should not be showing
random pictures.

~~~
larsberg
I spend a lot of time on public transit and occasionally open up my phone at
work. I'd hate to embarrass myself in a public place.

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TomOfTTB
As much as I hate to defend Microsoft you have to admit they're essentially
doing the same thing Apple is in OSX Lion. Just substitute Metro for the Mac's
new iPad like interface. Both are splitting the difference by implementing a
more modern system while hanging onto the desktop metaphor.

In some ways I'd even give Microsoft the edge (in that Metro Widgets/Gadgets
can be interactive)

~~~
WiseWeasel
The difference is that Apple isn't shipping Lion on their iPads; they're
shipping iOS. This is significant because it forces developers to write iOS
apps for the iPad, and Lion apps for laptops and desktops, both very different
usage contexts and user expectations. This means that any app you run will
have been written specifically with your particular type of device in mind,
typically leading to a more efficient and effective experience.

~~~
jjcm
How is that different from what windows is doing? Their metro style is based
off of the UI that was shipped with the latest windows 7 phones. If I write an
application for winphone, it wont run on windows 8 (and vice versa).

~~~
WiseWeasel
The Lion "iPad interface" is not at all like the iPad interface (it's intended
for a mouse and keyboard), and the apps a Lion user runs are regular Mac apps.
There's only one app runtime environment on Lion.

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epenn
I hope it will be possible to build applications that can take advantage of
both interfaces in one executable. Then detect the current context and display
accordingly. I like the idea of Metro, but I will like it less if I have to
create two separate projects to accomplish what (in my mind at least) should
be one.

~~~
TomOfTTB
It's really just an issue of themeing (There's already an unofficial Metro
theme for Windows 7: [http://www.nirmaltv.com/2011/06/10/windows-metro-ui-
theme-fo...](http://www.nirmaltv.com/2011/06/10/windows-metro-ui-theme-for-
windows-7/)). You can create Metro like applications using XAML today and they
look fine in a regular Windows enviornment (In many ways MS Money was doing it
in 2001: [http://cache.lifehacker.com/assets/resources/2008/06/ms-
mone...](http://cache.lifehacker.com/assets/resources/2008/06/ms-money.png))

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snarfy
Metro is good, but it doesn't mean the Windows 8 UI will be. Just look at
Windows Live Messenger.

~~~
crenshaw
What's wrong with WLM? I actually find it really usable. Maybe its the
features more than the UI, but I find it simple to use.

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jconnop
I just hope there will be a way to entirely disable the Metro UI. I'm sure
it'll be fine for small form factor devices, but it has absolutely no place on
my home desktop.

The new filesystem UI stuff is a welcome change, however.
([http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/23/improving-
our-...](http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/23/improving-our-file-
management-basics-copy-move-rename-and-delete.aspx))

~~~
recoiledsnake
>.., but it has absolutely no place on my home desktop

Why do you say that without even giving it a fair chance?

They haven't even revealed how it will play with a keyboard and mouse.

~~~
jconnop
You're right, I haven't given it much of a chance. It'll be re-evaluated time
and again as we get closer to release, this is just my feeling at the moment.

With 3 large monitors and lots of multi-tasking, I just don't see this being
preferable to the desktop / window metaphor status quo. Not to mention 25TB of
files to keep organised.

I realise this will all still be possible by running the "desktop app"
(explorer.exe?), I just don't expect to do anything but run that straight
away.

Again, I'm sure this will be excellent for small form factor and casual users
(provided it's implemented well, which microsoft seems to be putting a lot of
effort into), but for someone who uses a desktop for a large part of the day
(for both work and otherwise) I don't see Metro as viable.

~~~
crenshaw
For a 3-mon system managing 25TB of data, I think explorer is what you'll use.
I'll be shocked if there isn't a way to make explorer your default. If there
isn't at lauch, someone will fix it.

~~~
cdh
They may also have difficulty getting large companies to upgrade unless the
Metro UI is easy to disable. Lots of companies are still on XP because they
considered 7 such a dramatic change; I'd guess that a forced major change to
the entire UI could spell disaster for their Enterprise sales.

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georgieporgie
I feel like Microsoft is putting a really nice hardwood tabletop on a wobbly,
mismatched set of legs.

$5 says that when Windows 8 comes out, if you want to change your _personal_
path, you still have to go Start | Computer | Properties | Advanced System
Properties | Environmental Variables. And if you go to Advanced Appearance
Settings to set a different title bar color for inactive windows, it will
still be ignored by Aero.

~~~
kenjackson
_$5 says that when Windows 8 comes out, if you want to change your personal
path, you still have to go Start | Computer | Properties | Advanced System
Properties | Environmental Variables._

Curious, why wouldn't that be the way you do it? How do you change your
personal path on the iPad? You don't. In Metro you shoudln't be concerned with
the personal path. You should only care in legacy mode. And in legacy mode you
use Control Panel (or this other route you noted).

~~~
contextfree
Or type Windows key, "env", enter. The real problem is the bizarrely small and
unresizeable dialog.

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ryanisinallofus
M$ is seriously over thinking this. The first commentator on the post has it
right.

Step one should just be to theme Windows7 with the metro look, and apply
animations to complete it. Having the two world design is less than ideal and
unfortunately "so Microsoft."

