
Ecuador legalized gangs and murder rates plummeted - nwatson
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/3/26/18281325/ecuador-legalize-gangs
======
moh_maya
From Terry Pratchett's "Guards, Guards" [1]

"One of the Patrician’s greatest contributions to the reliable operation of
Ankh-Morpork had been, very early in his administration, the legalising of the
ancient Guild of Thieves. Crime was always with us, he reasoned, and
therefore, if you were going to have crime, it at least should be organised
crime.

And so the Guild had been encouraged to come out of the shadows and build a
big Guildhouse, take their place at civic banquets, and set up their training
college with day-release courses and City and Guilds certificates and
everything. In exchange for the winding down of the Watch, they agreed, while
trying to keep their faces straight, to keep crime levels to a level to be
determined annually. That way, everyone could plan ahead, said Lord Vetinari,
and part of the uncertainty had been removed from the chaos that is life.

And then, a little while later, the Patrician summoned the leading thieves
again and said, oh, by the way, there was something else. What was it, now?
Oh, yes…

I know who you are, he said. I know where you live. I know what kind of horse
you ride. I know where your wife has her hair done. I know where your lovely
children, how old are they now, my, doesn’t time fly, I know where they play.
So you won’t forget about what we agreed, will you? And he smiled.

So did they, after a fashion."

[1] [https://discworldquotes.tumblr.com/post/150983136815/one-
of-...](https://discworldquotes.tumblr.com/post/150983136815/one-of-the-
patricians-greatest-contributions-to)

~~~
zapeachy
I came here for this. He unmade my education and actually taught me to
think... :-)

------
peter_d_sherman
Excerpt: "And when you hang out for a while, you see how differently they
respond to conflicts now. For example, they [the Latin Kings] put on one of
the biggest hip hop concerts ever, and they worked with other previously
antagonistic gangs on the project."

If this is true, then I nominate David Brotherton for a Nobel Prize...

Also, I found this quote interesting: "...basically, when you want to stop a
behavior, the worst thing you can do is prohibit it. Social inclusion is the
most productive means of social control."

Interesting...

~~~
zerr
Could we also say - now criminals kill less each other, hence there are more
criminals in the streets?

~~~
cbzry
And we could also say that they use their influence and legality to spread
their criminal identity through the use of art (like rap, graffiti, etc).

~~~
addicted
If additions to the biggest music genre, and a massive art genre, is the
negative results of doing this then they should be doing a lot more of it.

------
huffmsa
Another commenter posted it[0], but it's more likely that the banning of
leaded gasoline in 1997 precipitated a drop in violent crime 15 years later.

Reductions in lead pollution => a drop in crime ~15 years later is a pretty
consistent pattern around the world, regardless of what other approaches the
nation's took to combat rising crime.

[0] [https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/03/ecuador-
phase...](https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/03/ecuador-phased-out-
leaded-gasoline-in-1997-guess-what-happened-17-years-later/)

~~~
conscion
I wonder sometimes how this has effected our current politics also. With
everyone born from post-WWII until the 1980 experiencing some level of lead
poisoning.

~~~
mythrwy
But since 1980 haven't the amount of other toxins grown? Like hormone altering
plastic hardeners?

Claiming generational pollution works both ways.

~~~
jacobush
Not all toxins cause violence though probably. Maybe other problems.

------
firekvz
Hmmm, this article might be a clickbait, this is super normal to do in latin
America

Is not about legalizing gangs, most latin america countries have been using
culture/cultural movements and even sport to drive gangs members into the
society.

Hiphop, street art, basketball, etc, are just easy and cheap methods to fight
the delinquency problem, same as in the US.

You can go to any place filled with gangs, and follow the basic recipe: build
a basketball court, build some cultural center and have it filled with
organized neighborhood vigilance and in few yours you pretty much removed a
big part of the problem, you will end up with some famous basketball players
and some famous rap artists emerging from this community.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
You might get less people killing each other, and you might get a small amount
of famous athletes or artists, but are you significantly improving the lives
of those people and preparing them to work in a modern economy? Midnight
basketball and street art might merely be bread and circuses, a way to keep
that demographic quiet and avoid troubling more privileged levels of society.

~~~
pizzazzaro
The cultural center, much like schools, can become a means to invest in the
education of a community. Build a computer lab, hire tutors, and then... Oh
crud, all the poor people cant afford to live there anymore.

Also of note, we can also draw a similar analogy to Motorcycle clubs in the
US, though such demands more wealth from each individual than community
centers.

~~~
firekvz
This "all the poor people cant afford to live there anymore" doesn't apply to
latin america, most (only chile misses this) the countries have free education
at every level, the budget for a school is the same no matter if its a poor or
a rich area.

------
warpspin
After reading the article, I still do not know what is actually meant by
"legalizing" gangs. Exactly in which way was the mere existence of a gang,
compared to maybe the crimes it did perform, illegal before in Ecuador?

The only specifics the article gets into sound more like increased money for
streetworkers.

Does anybody have any details on the situation there?

~~~
cf141q5325
I would assume it was a paragraph about membership itself being prosecuted.
Parts of the US seem to have a similar concept
[https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/gang-
affiliat...](https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/gang-affiliation-
laws.html)

>Gang Participation: Some states, such as Georgia and Texas, make it unlawful
for anyone to form, associate with, or profit from a street gang.

Germany has such a thing with membership in a criminal or terrorist
organization in §129 stgb. Being part of such an organization is in itself a
crime. So individual members dont have to commit any crimes them self to be
prosecuted. How ever I only know of the paragraph being used against
terrorists, as well as outlawed political associations.

------
HocusLocus
Well shucks. From my jaded point of view it seems that Ecuador had in place a
system that denied Freedom of Association among the young to the Orwellian
extent of frisking and institutionalized profiling (not merely rogue,
discouraged and depends-where-you-live variable, as in the US). Yeah just like
brown people in the Old South.

And then they stopped doing it. What a bloody miracle.

~~~
pvaldes
Belonging to a criminal organisation is commonly defined as an offence in laws
all around the world. There is not such thing as "freedom of association to a
criminal band", neither in international nor in national or local laws. If you
are aware of one single country when citizens have the legal right to enter in
a mafia, would be interesting to know about it

[https://knoema.es/atlas/Ecuador/Tasa-de-
Homicidios](https://knoema.es/atlas/Ecuador/Tasa-de-Homicidios)

The plot shows that the crime rates sinked mainly in the big scam period.
Accelerating from 2010 onwards. The "post-economic war" among europeans caused
eventually the firing and return to Ecuador to many ecuatorian entrepreneurs
that were working hard in Europe. Really nice and determined people.
Therefore, another possibility to explain the decrease in rate crime is that
the gangs diluted and lose influence by the arrival of lots of relatively rich
people buying houses, acting as a better model of success for youngsters, and
creating new job opportunities in Ecuador.

Another possible cause was the government of Correa increasing sharply the
money spent in education and sustaining it in time

[https://knoema.es/atlas/Ecuador/Gasto-p%c3%bablico-en-
eduaci...](https://knoema.es/atlas/Ecuador/Gasto-p%c3%bablico-en-
eduaci%c3%b3n)

~~~
senorjazz
Actually, I think the returning affulent people only caused the rate of home
invasions to shoot up, which although only anecdotally, have risen sharply
since 2010 - which also coincedes with Ecuador being rated the #1 place to
retire so also saw an influx of rich (actual and relative) foreigners coming
in, buying land and building (actual and relative) mansions.

Having lived in Ecuador for 10 years, I have not heard any anecdotal evidence
of this report (in fact the counter). But that is mostly from middle class
inlaws. Perhaps the reduction is in the barrios, which would not be felt /
known nor reported

------
camelite
Kevin Drum is banging his "It's the lead, stupid" drum on this:

[https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/03/ecuador-
phase...](https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/03/ecuador-phased-out-
leaded-gasoline-in-1997-guess-what-happened-17-years-later/)

~~~
huffmsa
It probably is. Lead seriously messes with humans. It likely crashed Rome, and
the pattern of "ban leaded fuels => crime rate falls 15 years later" has been
demonstrated in multiple nations.

~~~
addicted
Kevin Deum has made a really solid argument for his lead hypothesis. He points
to a solid bank of data, as well as peer reviewed sources. Further, I haven’t
seen anyone point to studies refuting the hypothesis.

What I don’t understand is why Drum is the only one who seems to believe this
theory? Is it just because I’m missing the research that has pretty much
disproven it?

------
mullingitover
I'm curious about how this has impacted non-murder crimes like racketeering.
It's not like gangs were just honest, persecuted businesses that were being
oppressed for no reason.

~~~
eraad
Right. I live in Ecuador and crime is booming. I’m not sure it is related but
anyways, this policy is not an anti-crime panacea.

~~~
senorjazz
Same. Not even a noticed reduction in murder rates, unless it is happening in
areas that don't get much reporting

------
rmason
The article says murders are down but what about the other crimes? What is
happening to arrest rates for gang members?

Are the gangs just taking some of their profits from crime and investing in
legitimate businesses? Is the opportunity that the government is offering them
so large that they've agreed on territories thus reducing the murder rate?

~~~
eraad
As I just posted in another comment, I live in Ecuador and crime is booming
everywhere. Narco-related crimes are a serious problem too.

I believe this policy helped former president secure votes in zones where this
gangs operated, but definitely it is not a crime solving solution.

------
vinceguidry
For anyone curious about what was meant by "legalizing gangs" as policy,
here's the relevant snippet:

> The country allowed the gangs to remake themselves as cultural associations
> that could register with the government, which in turn allowed them to
> qualify for grants and benefit from social programming, just like everybody
> else.

Turns out offering people money and the opportunity to make a difference makes
them want to fight less.

> There was a job training grant, and a grant to set up a community center.
> The Catholic University of Quito paid for 15 Latin Queens to study to become
> nurses.

------
mnm1
Great. Now onto drugs next. That's the main way to reduce violence, get
addicts help, and save a ton of money on wasteful police resources.

~~~
senorjazz
Ecuador in fact went the other. They did try and decriminalise small amounts
for personal use. But then there was an explosion in "micro traffikers". So
rather than a traffiker dealer moving 100grams, they would now go in a group
of 10, each carrying 10 grams and not have a problem (the numbers of not
accurate, but you get the idea).

So the government went the other way and say anyway found with tiny amounts
would be classed as a traffickers.

Results, drugs are still everywhere, same price, same quality. More arrests,
more people in prison though.

Just legalise them all already and solve the problem. Everyone who wants drugs
can get them. No one who hasn't used them yet, is going to think "oh, I will
start smoking crack for breakfast". Regulate, register and control their
distribution and remove the main source of funding from the blackmarket

------
pjc50
Related work in this area includes Scotland's "violence reduction unit",
similarly effective by using social inclusion; and de Soto's book "The Other
Path" about bringing land ownership and small businesses into legality in
order to reduce the power of Shining Path's Maoist guerillas.

------
fzeroracer
This should really come as no surprise when you consider that gangs are often
made up of people from the lower and marginalized classes using it as an
opportunity to either replace a family they never had, earn money in ways that
allowed you to rise out of poverty or serve as an outlet for any other issues.

In America, our solution is to continue taking away opportunity, thereby
driving more people to join gangs. Our prison system enables this and so does
our selective enforcement of laws. Turns out that if you give people
opportunity to grow and/or contribute to the community in a positive manner,
they'll take it.

------
gordonmelch
If we promote the Aryan Brotherhood race relations will improve.

------
Jemm
One could argue that the world has already legalized gangs and called them
corporations. The result is that those corporations have tremendous lobbying
and political power.

------
corodra
Hold up, there's a problem here.

A "gang" is not where some folks get together and decide to have a club
together with a hang out. A gang is a club where they practice criminal
enterprise as an organization.

There are plenty of "legal" gangs in America. They're called clubs. Country
club, MOPAR Club, Gun club, etc. Even motorcycle clubs are perfectly,
absolutely legal. Hell, technically they're 501.3cs. Most organized clubs are
non-profits. Even the small ones (like 10 or so people). What makes a
difference between a VFW MC and the Mongrels is one rides around, drinks and
does scholarship rallies for disadvantage yutes. The other rides around,
drinks and sells heroin. One doesn't do illegal things. The other does illegal
things. One gets considered a club still while the other... say it with me
class... becomes a gang because they do illegal shit.

Hell, the Polish-American club or Mopar club I'm with can very, very easily
become a gang. All we have to do is start running guns or drugs. Maybe some
prostitution. A little racketeering. Holy shit, we're a gang now. How is that?
I don't understand? Oh wait, it's because we did something illegal as an
organization! Actually, the Polish-American club can become a gang pretty
easy. Just smuggle a bunch of Kinder Eggs into the country (for those that
don't know, real Kinder Eggs are illegal to import into the US... and they're
delicious & fun...even as an adult). That's all we need would need to do to be
labeled a gang. Why? Because we did illegal shit _as an organization_. That's
why there are RICO laws too. Mostly to take the head off the snake of said
organizations though.

You want to start a club, then buy some abandoned building, fix it up, have a
place for all of y'all to hang out. Then as a club y'all decide to do a bake
sale of cakes, cookies or even start a car repair shop to raise funds for the
club. Y'all do well and decide "Hey, let's have a concert for everyone in town
to enjoy. You know what, we need a new skate park for the yutes. Let's build a
skate park for the yutes." No one can legally stop you or shut down your club
currently in the USA. That is roughly the story of one group here locally to
me. The moment you decide, "Let's sell meth to build a skate park." That's
where it becomes a "gang". Or you killed the old guy who owned the abandoned
building and put a gun to his wife's head to sign it over to the club. That's
pretty illegal too.

TLDR: no difference between a club and a gang, except one does illegal shit
and the other has cookie bake sales. Make a club. Join a club. Who cares. No
one does... except the queen of england. You can't have secret clubs in
england if I remember right. But on the freedom side of the pond, you can't do
illegal shit as part of your club. Bake some fucking bread and sell it as a
way to fund your club. No one cares. Except the IRS. Makes sure to declare
that shit. Just don't bake meth. Hold car shows. Don't do drive by shootings.
Rescue women from abusive relationships. Don't do prostitution. Start a low
cost building repair services for homes and businesses in the area. Don't do
extortion. I'm trying to figure out how this is so fucking difficult to
understand. Read an actual law book. They're free at your local library. Stop
being stupid. Yes, gangs should be illegal. For very good fucking reason.
Clubs are not illegal in the USA.

~~~
logfromblammo
"Clubs" are not 501(c)(3) organizations. They are typically 501(c)(7),
501(c)(8), or 501(c)(10) organizations--the latter two covering fraternal
lodges. So, mainly 501(c)(7).

If you register your recreational club as a 501(c)(3), then congratulations,
you're now a gang of tax code violators.

~~~
bluGill
You can register your recreational club as a 501(c)(3) if you are careful
about what the club does.

I know of one club that is a 501(3)(c). They exist for purposes of running a
local antique show. When the group has meetings many motions are shot down
because it isn't allowed under their status.

