
Privacy - Nuance
https://www.apple.com/privacy/
======
maxpert
Have used Android for years (I have been using devices like Pro, rooted,
custom ROMS, skins whatever you might imagine). Shifted to Apple's echo system
2-3 years ago. It took me some time to get used to iOS but integration across
devices (my mac, my iPad, my watch) is simply amazing. I am not going sound
like broken record or fan boy here. Apple got me on this video where Steve
Jobs really showed how much they care for privacy
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iKLwlUqBo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iKLwlUqBo)
the other day my wife got a notification from Google Photos that it prepared
our Album from our trip to SFO. We have turned of location tagging and
everything, turns out Google is not content with me asking them to leave me
alone, they would use ML and whatever they have built to figure out where I
have been. In this day in age, while Apple might sound outdated to a lot of
people, nothing can beat the sense of security with privacy Apple carries with
itself now.

~~~
moobsen
> nothing can beat the sense of security with privacy Apple carries with
> itself now.

That is exactly it. Apple is not good at privacy, they are good at giving you
the sense of it. A closed source OS, on proprietary hardware, where they don't
even give you root access to your own device, will never be private. You pay
them, but really they own the phone and you have to trust them.

But they are obviously very good at making you /feel/ secure and private.

~~~
lvillani
I don't think privacy can be measured by counting the number of lines of code
that are open source.

A device can be perfectly respectful of your privacy despite being closed and
proprietary.

The only difference (IMO) between open and closed platform is that with the
former you can have 3rd parties inspect it.

However, unless you have the resources to fully audit an open platform (either
yourself, or by paying someone else) I believe you should assume the worst
from both open and proprietary platforms.

~~~
bigbugbag
Even if it actually is, there is no way to know if a closed and proprietary is
respectful of your privacy. It is a matter of blind trust.

Which does not mean that open source is synonymous of privacy either, only
that one can go further than blind trust to the manufacturer.

~~~
bpicolo
There's more than the device code. They're not going to open source their
entire web infrastructure. They DO store your data, somewhere. Either way, you
need trust.

~~~
bhnmmhmd
Exactly!

As another example, Telegram claims to be the most secure messaging app out
there. They have open-sourced their code, but what really matters is what they
do with peoples' data on their servers.

> They're not going to open source their entire web infrastructure.

I think blockchain can actually solve this problem once and for all. When data
is stored in decentralized nodes, much of these concerns are gone.

------
trevoranderson
Apple is pushing the privacy angle pretty strongly now, and I can't really
blame them. It's a key differentiator between them and their chief competitor.

The phones are good on their own, but when choosing between having every
action tracked and keeping some things to yourself, unsurprisingly a lot of
people want privacy. Here's hoping their marketing can help ordinary people
who wouldn't normally care about privacy see why it's important (and maybe
score some wins for privacy at the polls in the future!)

~~~
analogic
Honestly on verge of switching, despite my deep disdain for the locked down
walled garden. Hopefully their privacy stance is a raging success and catches
on to every other service that I only minimally use due to the 'surveillance
chill' effect. (..goes back to tracking my users)

If only it wasn't for that fscking no headphone jack..

~~~
aerotwelve
I recently bought a new Android phone, not out of any love for Google and
their horrendous privacy policies, but out of love for my headphone jack.

Apple, what were you thinking?

~~~
hkjayakumar
Apparently Google is also ditching the headphone jack[1] on the new Pixel line

[1] [http://bgr.com/2017/07/27/pixel-2-rumors-no-3-5mm-
headphone-...](http://bgr.com/2017/07/27/pixel-2-rumors-no-3-5mm-headphone-
jack/)

~~~
guelo
Luckily for consumers Android is a diverse ecosystem not controlled by one
single manufacturer. There are many devices with headphone jacks to choose
from.

~~~
2muchcoffeeman
What makes you think the other major manufacturers aren't going to follow
suit?

It may just be a matter of time. Especially if 2 major companies normalise it,
then all the other companies get to drop a feature and save a few cents on
every phone.

~~~
dragonwriter
Samsung's still making a flagship line with a stylistic after pretty much
everyone else dropped smartphone styluses; and they brought back external SD
cards, too, which a number of manufacturers (themselves included) dropped from
flagship lines.

It's possible that dropping headphone jacks _could_ become universal, but I
don't see any reason to expect it's likely.

~~~
2muchcoffeeman
I can see wireless charging and waterproof devices becoming the norm.

Most people also buy headphones from popular brands rather than attempt to
discern on sound quality.

I see quite a few AirPods and Bluetooth headphones these days. I don't think
you can discount the possibility.

------
toephu2
"Apple doesn’t gather your personal information to sell to advertisers or
other organizations."

Apple is taking a direct jab at Amazon, Facebook and Google.

My friend who works at Facebook confirmed they actually buy shopping data from
Amazon (and in fact many companies buy your credit card shopping history), and
internally Facebook has a tool where you can search someone's name and see
their shopping history according to the data collected from Amazon. Of course
the tool is monitored and all searches are recorded. My friend only ran the
search on himself, but he said it was a little shady that this tool exists.

~~~
skierscott
I work with data scientists and it’s scary how much they have access to.

One first hand story: this person searched a database to find tax records for
a specific individual and their income. The records were de-anonymized but
there’s enough data there he could figure it out.

We should design systems to preserve individual privacy. The person I heard
the story from had no business in this persons tax records.

~~~
lostlogin
Can you clarify this term - “de-anonymized”? It reads like the word
“anonymised” is what’s meant.

~~~
floatingatoll
"de-personalized" or "anonymized" would both work as valid interpretations in
that paragraph, in case that helps you gain understanding while waiting for a
reply.

------
dsabanin
It's great that privacy advocates now have such a powerful ally as Apple. Even
if it's only just for raising public awareness in that privacy online is
important.

They are not perfect by any means, but it definitely takes the discussions
about privacy, encryption and personal data protection away from the "don't be
paranoid" or "just don't be a criminal" territory.

~~~
KGIII
I still see those sentiments frequently, even posted non-ironically and even
on HN. It baffles me. People don't seem to value their rights, especially if
they aren't using them. What many don't seem to realize is that the loss of
liberties may impact them when they do decide to use them.

They may not feel like they need privacy now, but what about what they do
becomes taboo? Rights need to protect even the worst among us, and they are
eroded by using the worst among us as examples.

I don't really have anything to hide from the government, but I damned sure
support the 4th. Some day, I might want to hide something and be secure in my
person and papers. I don't like most criminal activity and I don't like
terrorists, but I really don't want them being used as an excuse to erode my
rights.

~~~
KozmoNau7
Exactly, I personally don't feel like I have anything particular to hide, but
I fully 100% support people who _do_ feel like they've got something to hide,
and their right to privacy.

So for now, they can have my data. But I try my very best to avoid letting
Google et al. infer other people's actions from mine, so I don't tag people in
photos or otherwise expose them or their actions, without their consent.

~~~
vog
_> I fully 100% support people [...] and their right to privacy. [...] So for
now, they can have my data._

Unfortunately, these are conflicting goals. It is not enough not to tag
photos.

For example, if you use Gmail, they have your address book, hence they have
names and emails of other people.

Or, if you publish photos of a group of people, and Google/FB/etc. have
working face recognition, they know these people are connected with you (and
with each other), and at which time and location you all came together.

But imagine they don't even get that from you. If they know private
information from yourself, you are training their system to extract that
information from others, too. For example, if you are homosexual then you tech
them how to recognize homosexuals. If you are heterosexuals, you teach them
how to better distinguish homosexuals from heterosexuals. Same for other types
of private information.

It is impossible to show everything from oneself, and at the same time respect
the privacy of vulnerable people nearby oneself.

~~~
KozmoNau7
By extension, it is utterly impossible to avoid exposing information about
yourself, unless you live completely off the grid.

I try to have as low an online profile as I can, though.

------
danso
Impressive to see a detailed page dedicated to affirming privacy as a "right".
One of my first thoughts was, "it'd be nice to see a white paper" \-- which
Apple does when you get to the bottom of the "Approach to Privacy" page
(linked to from the submitted URL): [https://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-
to-privacy/](https://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-to-privacy/)

There's a link to an iOS security white paper that was published in March
2017. And there's one for FaceID. Not sure how if any of the info was
previously unknown, but the paper's publish date is September 2017:
[https://images.apple.com/business/docs/FaceID_Security_Guide...](https://images.apple.com/business/docs/FaceID_Security_Guide.pdf)

~~~
ucaetano
> Impressive to see a detailed page dedicated to affirming privacy as a
> "right"

That's just marketing speak for "we failed to make a business out of tracking
you, so now we're spinning that to our advantage". If Apple had succeeded with
iAds, you wouldn't be seeing this page now.

Just business as usual.

~~~
freedomben
Exactly. I try not to be so cynical, but this is so clearly a marketing tactic
that research and emerging trends have shown is a winner for them, since they
are so far behind in the AI race (and AI can't succeed without data, so by
harming people's acceptance of data harvesting they in turn reduce their
competitors' advantage).

~~~
rblatz
Privacy has been big at Apple for a long time, this video was posted in this
thread of Steve Jobs talking about how important privacy is to Apple
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iKLwlUqBo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iKLwlUqBo)

------
azca
As a lifelong Android fan, I'm more and more convinced that I want to pay for
an apple product in the future.

~~~
wvenable
As a long time Apple user who has moved to Android, I wish that Apple's
privacy also didn't come with a highly restricted walled garden.

I would love it if the level of Apple privacy came to Android but not if it
meant losing the tiny bit of openness that Android has over Apple.

~~~
fosco
I find myself dreaming more and more about PostMarketOS [0] and it's
potential. I cannot wait to try this out after cell and data have been
integrated (I have not checked in 30 days in case it anyway had but I suspect
it is at least a few months out)

[0] [https://postmarketos.org/](https://postmarketos.org/)

~~~
creatonez
What do you think about the Librem 5 phone, who are collaborating with the KDE
and GNOME people to create a consistent mobile interface where Matrix is a
first-class citizen?

~~~
fosco
I am interested to see where the librem phone goes but I am not sold on it
yet.

I am excited about it, but do not like the idea of asking for
donations/funding without having design completed yet... my concern is I give
money then do not like a decision they have made.... in any case I am watching
it closely, what about you?

------
SeriousM
Did already everyone forgot the case where Apple insisted on the truth that
they don't track you and a few weeks later one found a hidden file on the
phone with the tracking info since it was bought? Apple told us that it was a
mistake and removed every evidence with the next ios update. The only real
privacy one can get is by not using apple, Android, Google, Facebook and so
on. The others have to judge the tradeoff of having a powerful device vs.
leaked privacy and being the product, not the customer.

~~~
LeoPanthera
Bugs are not the same as intentions.

~~~
lightbyte
Are you claiming a full on device tracking feature was a _bug_? How do you
accidently implement that?

~~~
willstrafach
Are you aware of how and why that functionality worked?

------
eightysixfour
I really struggled with my most recent phone purchasing decision but ended up
sticking with iOS because, despite how much I love the customizability of
Android, I feel like the stance Apple has taken on privacy over the last few
years is something I want to support.

I understand that for them it may just be a business decision and
differentiator, but it is one that is important enough to me to keep me on
their platform.

~~~
taneq
I may not be up to date on Apple's stance but last I read it, I thought their
privacy policy basically said "we record whatever we want, and use it how we
want" (maybe with a "but we won't sell it" clause)?

I feel there's some very careful wording in the OP which blurs the lines
between "we care about protecting your privacy from everyone, including us"
and "we care about protecting your privacy from everyone, except us". I don't
have time right now to do another deep dive through their legal documents but
this is the kind of thing large data-driven companies do to keep their
customers feeling good while they go about collecting data as always.

~~~
obituary_latte
The lines aren't blurred at all. In fact, they even explicitly say that the
data they do collect is anonymous and used to find patterns in usage etc. not
to sell or do other nefarious things with.

------
beefsack
HN generally really supports Apple products and the company, but cynical old
me can't possibly believe some monstrously powerful for-profit corporation
could ever make customer freedoms a primary goal. My gut tells me Apple are
taking this stance because they feel it affects their bottom line somehow
(perhaps they want to project an image of being customer friendly?)

I don't want to be unfair towards Apple, I think large corporations inherently
lack empathy for customers and primarily focus on their bottom lines as a
consequence of their ownership and structure. It's just very concerning to see
people become emotionally attached to corporations or products partly because
of stances like these, when I'm fairly certain those stances aren't completely
sincere.

~~~
mythz
Ultimately I believe Tim Cook is a good human who really does want what he
says and leave the world in a better place than what they found it. He
routinely does things he thinks is the right thing to do, which is often
contra to what Wall Street wants and that of a purely for-profit enterprise,
e.g:

> He said that there are many things Apple does because they are right and
> just, and that a return on investment (ROI) was not the primary
> consideration on such issues.

> "When we work on making our devices accessible by the blind," he said, "I
> don't consider the bloody ROI." He said that the same thing about
> environmental issues, worker safety, and other areas where Apple is a
> leader.

> "If you want me to do things only for ROI reasons, you should get out of
> this stock."

\- [https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/03/at-apple-
shareholder...](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/03/at-apple-shareholders-
meeting-tim-cook-tells-off-climate-change-deniers/)

Under Cook Apple's approach to privacy has never wavered, they've always been
staunchly pro-privacy even when it was unpopular to do so during the FBI
terrorist attack. So I don't think their stance on privacy is a marketing
strategy, IMO he really believes we all have a fundamental right to privacy
and that they're doing everything in their powers to ensure their customers
get it.

~~~
confounded
> _Ultimately I believe Tim Cook is a good human who really does want what he
> says and leave the world in a better place than what they found it._

What does a 'good human' mean in your context?

I'm not sure if the people that make Apple products would be convinced
(suicide nets, plant explosions, high cancer and infertility rates) or the
people mining minerals for chips. The conditions of all of these people are
directly within Mr. Cook's influence.

Of course, it's possible to argue over a La Croix that the _real_ social good
is making lots of new iPhones every year, which give more important people
more important power.

And you can make similar arguments about his vast international tax avoidance,
keeping money from healthcare, education, housing, etc.

Does "good person" simply mean "their self-interest appears to be aligned with
my own, and I assume yours"?

> _IMO he really believes we all have a fundamental right to privacy and that
> they 're doing everything in their powers to ensure their customers get it._

Everything in his powers? Then why a 50% margin? Why is his only lobbying
interest in Washington lowering his tax bill?

I agree with the majority of posters on this thread, that privacy is a highly
marketable feature, especially to older wealthy Americans. Cook is in the
business of _collecting the premium_ placed on privacy.

He is doing everything in his power to collect that premium.

If he was doing everything in his powers _to further privacy_ , he could use
Apple's considerable cash and lobbying muscle to push for legislation.

But, products wouldn't be aspirational if people in general could have them!

~~~
sjwright
> I'm not sure if the people that make Apple products would be convinced
> (suicide nets, plant explosions, high cancer and infertility rates) or the
> people mining minerals for chips.

Foxconn and its competitors manufacture for many companies, not just Apple.
Why doesn't anyone raise these concerns when we discuss the Xbox and PS4? Or
any of the countless other tier-one products manufactured by Foxconn?

Have you ever raised these concerns about Samsung products and their
responsibility towards the miners of rare earth minerals?

(And let's not forget that a Foxconn worker has always been statistically less
likely to commit suicide than an American citizen.)

------
copperx
How true is this? Is there any way to confirm what Apple says with respect to
privacy? Serious question.

~~~
ISL
Indeed. Are there reproducible builds of open source software and firmware in
iOS?

It is my impression that it is still closed-source.

~~~
tyfon
And until this is rectified, no-one should take their words on face value. It
has to be verifiable, otherwise it's just words.

------
reeteshv
So, how many of those who support Apple are going to stop using Facebook,
Twitter, LinkedIn, Tinder, etc.? And, start going offline to protect their
data?

I'm no expert but I believe that these services (individually &/or
collectively) have far more detailed profiles of their users' lives than
Google.

~~~
usaphp
Google has access to your current desires, things you say, search, email etc.
Most of the information on twitter, LinkedIn etc is public unlike your private
desires that only google knows from your search and ok google history

~~~
reeteshv
In fact, I would argue that Google has a much limited knowledge of our
desires, opinions, etc. as compared to Facebook & Twitter. Yes, it tries to
create a profile of who we are using the data that we provide to them while
using their services. However, it is lame when you compare to the kind of
detailed profile information that the other social services ask upfront,
especially Facebook.

------
oldgun
The fact that protecting users' privacy becomes a marketing strategy other
than the basic principals of tech companies makes me feel weird to live in
2017. Not sad. Just weird.

------
nojvek
I still get a feeling that it’s a marketing ploy. Why would China allow Apple
to operate as they wish without Apple sleeping with China.

I very much feel Apple bends a couple of rules here and there for the ability
to operate in non-US markets.

~~~
dsabanin
There could be other explanation also.

I think it would be pretty tough to not allow Apple (the largest US company)
to operate in China. At that point US government, WTO and other organizations
will step in and there will be serious economic retaliation that I'm sure
China doesn't want.

~~~
themacguffinman
They've just recently cracked down on WhatsApp among other Facebook services.
Facebook is hardly a small player.

------
omnifischer
While I agree Apple is not a Ad-company and therefore have no interest in
tracking, one needs to look at Apple for just more than privacy. Cherry
picking does not help!

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence)
Why limit memory or anytype of upgrades (I am talking hardware). How does it
play on the 'environment'? Look at other hn thread "Right to Repair"
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15360362](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15360362)

1.contd. Not everyone can afford a $700 device. (second-hand phones are not
always available as cheap as in SFO to other parts of the world). Even $200 is
a lot for many people. (and they too need internet, whatsapp).

2\. Software: Android OEMs are worst offenders, agreed. Why apple limits
updates to older macs? Privacy?

3\. Whether you agree or not getting trapped inside one-closed system is
uncomfortable. Try editing icloud calendar from linux or windows. Oh yes, do
not tell me that only OSX has privacy other OS do not.

4\. I would get a iPhone the day, Apple foregoes the $1 Billion that they
supposedly get from Google for putting the search. Why not offer privacy to
all? Apple is famous for deciding 'what the user' should do? Why not force
everyone to use 'DDG'.

------
couchand
OTOH, iOS 11 makes it harder to turn off your wifi and bluetooth radios [0],
by fooling you into thinking you've done so when really they just disconnected
you, so there's that. I don't think they're nearly as privacy-focused as they
claim, and I'm not talking about just the marketing double-speak.

[0]: [https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/evpz7a/turn-
off-w...](https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/evpz7a/turn-off-wi-fi-
and-bluetooth-apple-ios-11)

~~~
tedivm
I'm pretty sick of this meme. They aren't lying to people, they've just
changed how the UI functions. It is still completely possible to turn off
either bluetooth or wifi.

The whole point of this change is to match the behavior people actually have.
People tend to want to disconnect from a bluetooth device rather than
completely turn off bluetooth, and a huge amount of time when people are
turning off wifi it's because they have a bad connection to a single network
(such as when they are walking away from their house) and they simply want to
disconnect from the network they are on.

This isn't some ridiculous antiprivacy conspiracy, it's just swapping menus
and buttons around to give people what apple (and myself) think is a better
user experience.

~~~
couchand
It seems you're unfamiliar with the litany of frequent bluetooth
vulnerabilities?

Not to mention the power-saving advantages of turning off wireless radios.
Perhaps reversing this decision alone would allow the iPhone battery to last a
full day?

~~~
Synaesthesia
Firstly, I’m not aware of any such vulnerabilities affecting iPhones, because
their Bluetooth capabilities are quite sparse (no file transfers etc). Also
their power management seems to be smart enough, that the power usage is quite
negligible, in my experience.

~~~
couchand
Well, here's a recent one, for example:
[https://www.armis.com/blueborne/#/devices](https://www.armis.com/blueborne/#/devices)

------
ucaetano
Don't fall for the marketing spin.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/12/business/apple-china-
data...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/12/business/apple-china-data-center-
cybersecurity.html?_r=0)

[http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-tn-apple-china-
vpn-201...](http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-tn-apple-china-
vpn-20170731-story.html)

~~~
moscovium
Not trying to be an apple fanboy here, but that seems like a business decision
concerning Chinese citizens to keep operating in China, having nothing to do
with non-Chinese citizens.

~~~
pgeorgi
So that "fundamental human right" doesn't apply to Chinese citizens?

~~~
luxsypher
welcome to china

------
dingo_bat
Yup, privacy is a right but controlling a gadget you paid $1000 for isn't.
Cool story bro.

------
Synaesthesia
What about PRISM? Apple has said it co-operates with law enforcement to give
information about suspects. How much privacy do we really have on the web?

~~~
willstrafach
I do not think any US company can just deny a legal warrant from the FBI. They
can challenge it (as Apple publicly did awhile ago though for a domestic
matter rather than FISA). Not sure what more Apple themselves can do, you may
want to speak with your representatives if you do not want companies to be
obliged to serve data under these orders.

------
cyphunk
The language Apple uses indicates that your personal data that apple recieves
is at least at some point in clear unencrypted form, and that they then choose
to encrypt it for cloud storage. The language indicates they could decrypt it
if they choose. All of their statements during the San Berdeno Apple vs Gov
debate a year ago clarified they had complete access to all cloud based
content. There are examples of cloud like services that are able to provide
online syncronization and sharing services without being able to access your
data, and the language they use is very different. Examples

[https://send.firefox.com/](https://send.firefox.com/)

[https://spideroak.com/](https://spideroak.com/)

[https://protonmail.com/](https://protonmail.com/)

------
napa15
I could maybe believe this more if my iPhone stopped asking me to enable
iCloud every time I turn it on, I'm pretty sure I never ever said yes to that
thing.

------
Mikeb85
Just curious, but what's to stop them from handing over data to the US
government? It's well know US companies have been forced to cooperate in the
past, it's also known the NSA has collected data in secret. How do we know
this isn't the case with Apple?

------
agounaris
You can never trust data that exist on someone else's machine. Period.
Everything else is a misconception. Just try to control what you share.

~~~
creatonez
Unless end-to-end encryption is used everywhere and implemented properly.
Which Apple's cloud services do not do for everything

------
dorkwood
I used the 'notes' app on my 5s for about 6 months before I realised it was
secretly sending everything I typed to my Gmail account.

Why is this even a feature at all, let alone a default one? Why didn't my
phone notify me that this was happening? I've since disabled it (and scrubbed
the emails), but it's still the biggest breach of privacy I've ever
experienced on a device.

I'm still not sure who to blame, either. Apple? Google? Or me, for assuming
that my note-taking app wasn't secretly broadcasting all of my keystrokes
online?

~~~
sah2ed
That's because you (unknowingly?) had your Notes app setup to sync with your
Gmail account when you added it to your iPhone.

For anyone else, to turn it off go to: Settings -> Notes -> Accounts -> <Gmail
Account> -> Notes "turn off" to disable Notes syncing.

------
mtgx
I wish I was a fly on the wall at Apple's discussions with the Chinese
government. Is Apple really allowed to encrypt everything and whatnot in
China, or has it reached some sort of "partnership" with Chinese companies
where the data goes through them first in China, like many other American
companies have done.

Otherwise, how is Apple "getting away" with protecting Chinese users' privacy
at a time when the Chinese government is cracking down on all such things?

------
z0d
To all the advocates who think Apple's E2E Encryption key and data is only
existing with the end user and believe that San Bernardino incident on Privacy
related iPhone unlock.

[https://www.macrumors.com/2016/07/21/apple-helped-
identify-k...](https://www.macrumors.com/2016/07/21/apple-helped-identify-
kickasstorrents-owner/)

Granted both the Secure Enclave thing and the iTunes transaction logs are
entirely different but essentially they all are chained together in the Apple
ID which is protected by an Encryption key and the backdoor building is all
that fuss was made for the PR, As usual I don't expect any consumer centric
corporate to prove their idea on the privacy.

It's an illusion.

------
solomatov
I like that the company which takes users' privacy interests seriously exists,
and I am more than willing to pay for it. Unfortunately, they don't have their
own search engine and social network.

~~~
stephenr
For search: DuckDuckGo.

For social, well I use twitter and simply don't provide extra details like
date of birth etc, but it probably depends what your goal is with a social
network?

~~~
solomatov
DuckDuckGo isn't that good. I would use Google and sacrifice privacy.

Concerning twitter, IMO, it's no different than others. For example, they
still use social button which theoretically might collect information about
the sites you visit.

~~~
stephenr
> DuckDuckGo isn't that good

Myself and others who use it daily would disagree.

> it's no different than others

By definition of how it works it's different.

With a decent content blocker in safari none of the social media buttons can
"track" you.

~~~
gvurrdon
Annoyingly, Apple recently removed the means to block such tracking from apps
as well:

[https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-cracking-down-
on-...](https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-cracking-down-on-vpn-based-
ad-blockers-that-work-in-third-party-apps.2056730/)

I went back to Android so I can continue to do that, as well as using Firefox
plugins. This is a bit of a nuisance as the Apple Watch was rather good.

~~~
solomatov
>Annoyingly, Apple recently removed the means to block such tracking from apps
as well:

IMO, it's right decision. Blocking via VPN is a privacy nightmare. They can
intercept all traffic.

~~~
gvurrdon
Such applications are not necessarily a problem - take a look at this Android
one, for example:

[https://github.com/julian-klode/dns66](https://github.com/julian-klode/dns66)

In any case it should be up to the owner of the device if they wish to do this
sort of thing rather than Apple.

------
forapurpose
I've hoped and said for awhile that Mozilla should take this approach. And
while they do talk about privacy, their messaging just doesn't seem that
strong and clear.

Perhaps they can ride Apple's coattails to a degree, using some of the same
language and messaging. Note that Apple and Mozilla both are differentiating
themselves from the same competitor.

(And Mozilla can add that they are open ('we develop everything in the open,
so you can see what's in our products'), non-profit, and end-users have
ultimate control, not Mozilla.)

------
martins_irbe
And then there is this
[https://github.com/KrauseFx/detect.location](https://github.com/KrauseFx/detect.location)

~~~
qzervaas
If you want to be super paranoid about it, cell providers and banks know your
whereabouts most of the time also.

iOS at least gives you the option to deny apps access to the photo library, to
prevent this from being available.

Perhaps an additional privacy control specifically related to allowing apps to
read EXIF data?

------
greggman
I love that Apple is trying to be pro privacy

that said their repair policy has their employees asking for user login
credientials and entering username and password into official Apple forms for
the repair technician to be able to login to the computer. That seems
incompatible with their privacy stance. Even a bank says to never give your
PIN to a bank employee yet my login credientials give anyone who has them
access to my life. password stored in browsers. private ssh keys. etc...

~~~
aareet
Isn't that actually an illustration of Apple's commitment to security and
privacy? They truly cannot enter your computer without you providing your
username and password - no backdoors, no special "Genius" login that works on
all computers. You have to provide that information because the computer they
sell you works as they promised it would - securely without backdoors.

~~~
greggman
no, it is not.

do I need to spell it out? youre the sys admin for your company. your Mac
breaks. are you really going to give the keys to your company to the customer
service guy at apple and have them record that for any other service employ to
reference?

they can use a USB drive while working on the computer. they can also swap the
drive. there are many other options than handing them to keys to your life

do they ask for your phone unlock code? I honestly don't know but if they did
it would be just as clearly bad

------
nocoder
This is certainly an interesting marketing angle and something that will
differentiate Apple from competition. Moreover google guys cannot make this
claim as their entire model is based on selling user data. I hope this brings
privacy concerns into the consciousness of larger public. I also don't know if
the commitment of Apple is beyond just marketing, will it be able to make the
same claim in China? Maybe currently this is just a western thing.

~~~
guelo
> selling user data

More precisely, they sell ad impressions to anonymized targeted audiences. The
advertiser doesn't know who you are unless you tell them.

~~~
nocoder
Data anonymization is largely BS, it has been shown in the past that with
enough data it is fairly easy to specifically figure out who the person is.
This is how people receive highly specific and targeted ads. I know this
because I have worked in advertising and it's amazing & creepy that how
specific I can get in my targeting. So yes, they in reality make money by
selling user data and showing them ads using that. My bigger problem here is
that when I buy a mobile device by paying money, why should I have my privacy
not respected.

------
j45
I recently read an interesting comparison:

Apple is a product company first, and a services company second is supported
by having privacy support their core product business. Companies like Google
are a service company first, and a product company second. The information is
the business.

It's a struggle still, to reconcile this strong statement from Apple with how
often Macbooks call home.

~~~
stephenr
Google is an ad network company first and foremost and anything else a long
way behind.

------
tray5
I wish I could afford an apple phone. As much as I love open source software,
I am willing to shift over to Apple as my android manufacturer doesn't really
actually care, and I hate how much access googles tentacles have into my
personal life. Apple seems to actually give a shit about privacy, now if only
they were affordable!

------
ing33k
Android has caught up on the app permission model. but most of the apps just
reject to work when you don't give access to your contacts, location, etc. but
most of the apps still work on an iPhone ( bit downgraded experience ?) even
if you don't grant it all the permissions.

------
zulrah
When I was younger I hated apple for what I thought was overpriced products,
but then I realised that I was simply a product to Google. After switching to
Apple I never looked back. I hope that it can keep it's standards and keep
delivering good products

------
forapurpose
Can iPhones, iPads and Macs be used anonymously - that is, without telling
Apple who I am? Last time I tried to set one up, I seem to remember that
either anonymity was difficult or required significant sacrifices (no software
updates, or something like that).

~~~
wingworks
You don't need to have an Apple account to get system updates, but do if you
want to download apps from the app store.

------
giancarlostoro
Wondering if Android Pay keeps my privacy at all. According to this Apple Pay
doesn't track my buy history, but I'm not so sure whether or not Android Pay
honors my privacy or not, but I'm leaning towards probably not.

------
cjsuk
This is the _feature_ I’m paying for. And the one where it basically just
works.

------
ksk
[http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40404923](http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40404923)

Related?

------
vim_wannabe
So if I go to the store and pay with Apple Pay using my credit card, instead
of directly with my credit card, my transaction history stays secure?

------
cJ0th
If you care about privacy then don't ask me for my name and my birth date when
I want to download a free app. (apple id)

------
aplummer
The privacy is great but they also really know how to sell it. The picture of
the child at the top wasn't chosen at random.

------
piyush_soni
Comparing that with [https://google.com/privacy/](https://google.com/privacy/)
... Of course it collects much more data than Apple, but I like Google's
organization of this information too. All important things are clearly and
carefully written down with options to change them near each of them. (Sure,
you can't permanently stop data collection with any option yet :) )

~~~
danso
That's a great looking landing page, though I think it's another example of
the stark contrast between Apple and Google in regards to privacy. Apple's
page begins with "we believe privacy is a fundamental human right". Google
starts with the headline "Every day, data makes our services work better for
you", followed by, "That's why it's important we keep it private and safe".

That said, I really do love the data "takeout" feature. But my guess is that
most people don't know about it. I once tweeted something innocuous and nerdy
about the JSON format used and I got a ton of response, most of which was
surprise/shock that this data was collected at all:
[https://twitter.com/dancow/status/849111902961532929](https://twitter.com/dancow/status/849111902961532929)

(Then again, I still remember when Steve Jobs was flat-out defiant that iOS
was collecting/storing user geolocation data, even when the SQLite database
was easily discoverable:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/28/technology/28apple.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/28/technology/28apple.html))

------
a_imho
What is the state of contentblocking on Apple devices? Do they come with
adblockers by default?

~~~
frou_dh
No, they're third party apps (e.g.
[https://1blocker.com/](https://1blocker.com/)). But the interesting thing
about these Content Blockers is that they don't actually get to inspect
anything. They just hand off a list of rules in an official declarative
format, which Safari itself then takes care of matching and applying.

------
cyphunk
Anyone that says

> "we do not give your info to 3rd parties"

instead of

> "we have designed it so it is impossible for us to give your info to 3rd
> parties"

is simply selling you privacy-cool-aid

~~~
bluebird01
why do you say this? curious to know more on this insight.

~~~
cyphunk
from their language and they said that they could give FBI access to all cloud
content during FBI vs Apple San Berdino Terrorist debate. This implies they
have root keys to decrypt and view any service that transverses their servers,
exceppt for iMessage which is the only service they have explicetly said they
cannot decrypt (due to end-to-end encryption)

------
paulferrett
Ummm... does Darla know her private messages are being used for Apple
marketing?!

------
OverThere
I miss steve...

~~~
Nuance
How is this related to the post?

------
daxorid
[edit] disregard.

~~~
stephenr
What is LE in this context?

~~~
newscracker
Law Enforcement would be my guess in this context. I did have to think a bit
to come up with this though.

------
X86BSD
You won't see this from Google or Facebook or Twitter or...

------
shinypotatoe
Isn't it the case that basically every keystroke is stored in iCloud? Hardly
true privacy.

~~~
cJ0th
any source on this? that would be horrible indeed.

------
danjoc
Apple phones are still available in China.

China blocks WhatsApp.

"Privacy"

~~~
nextlevelwizard
Are you just typing random words or do you have a point? How do any of these
things relate? Or are you suggesting that Apple should withdraw from
profitable China market, since Chinese government dictates certain monitoring
"features" on products sold there? How would that help with anything? All of
their user base would just move to Android, which is even less private.

~~~
hesarenu
If Apple was serious about privacy then they should have existed China. After
all Cook says he does not consider ROI

Mr. Cook replied --with an uncharacteristic display of emotion--that a return
on investment (ROI) was not the primary consideration on such issues. "When we
work on making our devices accessible by the blind," he said, "I don't
consider the bloody ROI." It was the same thing for environmental issues,
worker safety, and other areas that don’t have an immediate profit. The
company does "a lot of things for reasons besides profit motive. We want to
leave the world better than we found it."

~~~
nextlevelwizard
Again what would it change? Chinese people are even more dependent/addicted on
smart phones than Westeners. They would just switch to Androids and be even
worse off in my opinion.

------
madshiva
Don't Apple have let open phone for FBI? or I'm wrong? Where is the privacy
than? just a joke and you all fail in this marketing trends ?

~~~
dagw
_Don 't Apple have let open phone for FBI?_

The last time a high profile case about this came up, Apple refused and the
FBI declined to push their case in court. So as it stands, no Apple doesn't
have to let the FBI do anything. Furthermore Apple also claims that they made
changes to their software since that case so they no longer could unlock the
phone for the FBI even if they really wanted to.

~~~
madshiva
Ok. Thanks for the clarification.

~~~
danjoc
The FBI did get into the phone.

[https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/03/fbi-breaks-iphone-
and-...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/03/fbi-breaks-iphone-and-we-have-
some-questions)

"Privacy"

------
flybass89
"You can easily secure your devices with a six-digit passcode, which is very
tough to crack since there are a million possible combinations." ... rofl

~~~
stephenr
What's the funny part?

~~~
nextlevelwizard
I'm guessing since digits are pretty finite (0 - 9) and people aren't really
that random with their PINs, so it's not bulletproof by any means. You really
are better off of using actual password to unlock your phone.

This being said, I think 6 digits with the wipe after x wrong guesses is
pretty solid for your average bear. Most users' PIN will never get tested and
it is enough security so pick pockets can't get into your stuff.

~~~
robin_reala
So set a longer password? You’re not limited to 6 digits, there’s an open
ended ‘custom alphanumeric password’ option.

~~~
nextlevelwizard
With PIN you are actually limited (as far as I know), but as I already said in
my previous comment the password is better and that is what I have always used
on my iPhone.

~~~
stephenr
As of iOS 11 (or possibly earlier) the numeric digit code isn’t limited to 4/6
digits.

------
VvR-Ox
It's all about the feeling and that just proves how good Apples Marketing and
Branding is.

I own several products myself (iphones, macbook, mac mini...) and for some
time and certain tasks these devices are awesome.

Nevertheless Apple is a huge company trying to get more money (like all global
players). You just can't trust an entity like this and if you do you are a
fool and hopefully will pay for being so naive one day.

The problem is that only players like Apple can combine this beautiful design
with devices that feel like high-quality products while soothing your fears
with nice-made advertising lies.

Nowhere else you'll get the same feeling of comfort / security etc pp and THAT
IS THE REASON stuff like osmocom BB / REAL linux phones (openmoko) etc. did
not have the success they'd need to develop into mature products made for real
humans.

So we are just oil in this big machinery to keep everything running and
getting bigger every day and please don't think that anyone cares about your
privacy. If you want to keep things to yourself - don't tell anyone on f
__ckbook and don 't use a damn iphone to communicate it.

