

Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - ab9
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2011/01/three-reasons-creators-should-never.html

======
neutronicus
Well, I'll be, Spiderweb Software on HN.

Just so you guys know, this is a lifestyle business he's been running for,
like, 15 years. You should definitely check out his games if you like retro
RPGs.

Just some more background. His situation is really a little different than
most game makers with respect to the forums, and I'll tell you why:

A long time ago (like '90s long ago) he released a game creation system called
Blades of Exile, based on the IP of a commercially successful trilogy he had
released. A small but very active and very vocal community built up around
this specific product. They had a lot of demands for bugfixes and feature
enhancements in this product, to which Jeff was not particularly receptive
(especially the latter), since he preferred to focus on writing and selling
new games rather than extending a game creation system for free.

This created some ill will with the Blades of Exile community (but not the
larger Spiderweb Software community) and it was also true that a lot of the
Blades of Exile luminaries considered themselves _better game makers than Jeff
himself_ and did not hesitate to insult, not only Jeff's games, but _fans_ of
Jeff's games on the Spiderweb forums.

The Blades folks all hung out in the Spiderweb forums, and they _stayed_
there, loudly insulting Jeff and complaining bitterly that he wasn't
interested in maintaining Blades, and loudly asserting that their creations
surpassed anything Jeff had ever done, for _years_. Eventually he just open-
sourced the damn thing, but it kind of poisoned the forum dynamics for a long
time. He's actually sworn off of creating another game creation system ever
again, because dealing with the communities surrounding them and their
maintenance requests is more trouble for less money than cranking out a good
RPG every year.

So, in his case, he really is right: he had a small group of vocal customers
who were basically attacking him to

1\. Get him to put in free work on Blades

2\. Establish their own artistic credibility

and this bunch wasn't representative of most of his paying customers.

~~~
duskwuff
> He's actually sworn off of creating another game creation system ever again,
> because dealing with the communities surrounding them and their maintenance
> requests is more trouble for less money than cranking out a good RPG every
> year.

Not entirely accurate. Vogel did end up releasing a second game creation
system based on his isometric RPG engine -- Blades of Avernum
(<http://www.avernum.com/blades/>). It was even less profitable for him than
BoE had been, which was already a loss.

The source code to BoE was released a few years ago. Unfortunately, the code
was old and messy enough that little progress has been made in modernizing it.

~~~
neutronicus
Yeah, it was after BoA that he said this (I think he feels he allowed the BoE
community to badger him into making it).

~~~
duskwuff
The other half of the equation is that Vogel's better at writing than
programming. He was able to put together perfectly adequate engines for his
games, but the real value of his RPGs was in the game content.

------
veb
Umm. I completely disagree. I was part of a 2 man team that started up 4 years
ago, (a game) and I made the forums and built that community up to nearly
1,000,000 users.

Sure, you might get angry, or you mightn't like what people say - but it's the
Internet. If people are saying bad things, you're doing something wrong. More
times than not, we got people saying "Thanks", and this was worth more than
100+ people complaining.

It also helps build the community. A developer comes swooping down on a thread
talking about "how cool would it be to have water in game?!" and goes, "Well,
you seem to know what you're talking about... how about I make you moderator
and you can sort out anything there is to do with water in game". Works
wonders. The users love the fact that you interact with them. I.e. you're not
too busy to stoop down to them.

~~~
wlievens
Which game, if I may ask?

~~~
veb
I'd rather not post that in public, too many bad memories. Founder turned out
to be a bit of a crazy in the end.

~~~
wlievens
Would you mind sending me an email (see profile)? You've got me really curious
now.

------
RossM
I'm going to agree with this because I've seen the comments on Notch's
(Minecraft dev) blog. Commenting has been turned off now but they ranged from
praise to demands for features and fixes to outright rage that they're not
being listened to. Charge (a cut-price amount) for your product and you're
somehow indebted to your users forever.

~~~
patio11
_Charge (a cut-price amount) for your product and you're somehow indebted to
your users forever._

So my parsing of this sentence is that you think that charging the money is
what brings in the crazies. That is not the case: people frequently have
entitlement issues with regards to things that are free. Oh, the stories I
can't tell...

Charging _cut-price amounts_ , on the other hand, attracts pathological
customers like crazy. It is _amazing_ how much increasing my price has cut
down on pathological customers, and I have heard this over and over and over
again from my shareware buddies.

~~~
RossM
It was more a jab at the state of the comments than anything else, I have
nothing against charging for products. It's interesting to note that
increasing your price has increased the sensibility of your customers though,
I had always put it down to MC being a game generally attracts a younger
audience that is more used to getting things for free after growing up with
torrents and the like.

------
shalmanese
The author is slightly confusing cause with effect here. Not reading your
forums _makes_ them toxic since there is no effective moderation. Too many
people still have this misguided notion that the Internet should be some
massive free speech zone where nothing can be censored except maybe spam.
Nothing could be further from the truth.

Clear, effective moderation backed up by sensible but stringent policy can
remove many of the pathologies that the article is talking about and transform
a forum into a genuinely useful resource.

~~~
JabavuAdams
Good point, but moderation takes time, as he pointed out at the beginning of
the article. People don't become indie game developers so they can spend time
moderating forums.

Moderation can be an art, but it's also a chore. I.e. you can't moderate 10
times as hard / smart and be done with it. There will always be more.

As a thinker / creator one has to be very careful about allowing recurring
non-automatable, never-finished tasks into one's head.

------
danieldk
I disagree. I was part of the three-person team that created Libranet 3 (a
commercial Linux distribution) years ago. Every member of the company kept
active contact with the community via the forums and mailing list. This
created a sense of community, and gave good insights into what our customers
expected.

Of course, every now and then a troll or disgruntled customer would appear.
They can be truly poisonous to you and the community. And the tricky part is
distinguishing 'disgruntled, but insightful' people from 'sour, and
unproductive' people. If necessary we sometimes had to apply force and ban the
user.

But if you make an good product, the group of happy and contributing community
members is at least two orders of magnitude larger than poisonous people.

Of course, it is very well possible that game forums attract a whole different
class of people those of a commercial Linux distribution.

~~~
darren_
Not just game forums, but forums for isometric 2D non-realtime indie RPGs.
It's cliché but probably fair to assume that his customer base is likely
selected from the rather more socially awkward end of the spectrum.

------
ars
Politicians have the same problem.

The last people you should listen to are the ones that are the most vocal, yet
the only information you get comes from those very people.

Same with the forums - if you listen to the suggestions there you are
listening only to the most vocal, but those are not necessarily the ones with
the best advice/suggestions.

The problem with the most vocal is that usually those are also the ones who
care the most - but they care about themself. And they care about themself a
lot - that's why they are so vocal.

------
MicahWedemeyer
I ask for feedback sometimes in my forum, and over the years the responses
have gotten worse and worse.

There are a few core responders who have great ideas and are a big help. The
rest (who are becoming the majority) don't read anything at all and just
scream out that I need to add X, Y and Z.

At first, I tried to debate them, but that's a complete waste of time.
Instead, just engage with the ones who are useful and do your best to ignore
the buzzing of the rest.

------
praptak
This is the general problem of listening to a million people. Maybe a HN-like
or a Slashdot-like software solution would let one delegate the filtering to
the community itself?

There's also UserVoice who claim that they solve this problem, but I am not
sure how well they perform.

