
Ask HN: Why does a pizza app know my location and 911 doesn't? - ponderatul
I know I don&#x27;t have all the facts. But apparently the system 911 is using to find your location, depending on where you live can have a 10% to 95% chance of finding your exact location; and by 2021 they still won&#x27;t be able to find 1 out of 5 people.<p>Can someone tell me, if we&#x27;re talking about bold people tackling the world&#x27;s biggest problems, is there anyone working on this? It seems to me like an obvious, ripe place for disruption.<p>Here&#x27;s a source of the problem explained in more detail:
https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=A-XlyB_QQYs
======
Someone1234
I understand the technical limitations.

But here's what I don't understand at all...

Has anyone ever been sailing? On yachts we have radios, but these radios are
designed assuming the person operating it might be completely ignorant.

So we have this literal red button, you lift a flap, hold down the button and
the radio sends an SOS with complete GPS coordinates and boat name on Channel
16. Then it leaves it on channel 16 so you can describe the emergency.

So back to smartphones, on smartphones we have dialer apps, these apps know
when you dial 911. Why in holy heck don't they have a big red button on-screen
which when pushed sends your current GPS coordinates USING VOICE over the open
line?

Here's what we need to do that:

\- Dialer app. CHECK.

\- GPS. CHECK.

\- Some kind of UI. CHECK.

\- Text to voice system. CHECK.

We have all of the components to roll out a system TODAY which tells 911 via
voice where you are calling from. It would almost be free, but we haven't, and
nobody is suggesting it.

Everyone is talking about these crazy complicated standards that will, best
case, be available in 2021 and cost ungodly amounts. I am talking about using
voice which the operator themselves can type in.

Am I mad here? Why isn't this a thing? Why doesn't the dialer even DISPLAY GPS
coordinates when you dial 911?

Seriously I bet if someone made this a big deal we could get Apple and Google
to sign on almost immediately and this would be available within a year. All
smartphones already have all of the prerequisites to do this!

~~~
StephenConnell
My android s6 active has pocket dialed 911 a handful of times in the past
month. I called dispatch to apologize, they took down my info and confirmed my
address. They were only a couple of houses off. Not too bad.

I must say I hate the emergency button on the stock lock screen, and how
glitchy replacement lock screens are.

~~~
enzanki_ars
A couple houses off could mean life or death in a real emergency.

------
johnhess
You'd be really surprised how well the humans in a 911 center cope with
antiquated technology. Visiting the center in Cambridge, Mass, I watched a
dispatcher -- calm enough to almost seem disinterested -- do everything
perfectly by being the "human layer" on top of the old system.

She entered scattershot information from a frantic caller, and using a
combination of keyboard shortcuts, foot pedals (yes, foot pedals), and stand-
up-and-hand-signal-to-a-colleague-while-keying-a-mic, dispatched an ambulance
within seconds. Way faster than the caller would ever realize.

You're not just replacing software/hardware, you've also got to make
allowances for the humans in the system. Little things make huge differences
in those situations, so throwing the old system out is painful. Evolving the
current one (as davismwfl pointed out) is challenging for its own reasons.

Doesn't mean it isn't important. Just hard to do.

------
davismwfl
So having done a lot of work in the 911 systems for years, I have some first
hand experience here.

First, most pizza apps are just that, an app. That app has access to your
phones location data through GPS and some even use WiFi location services.
Hence it can send a nearly exact position to where you are standing.

Contrast that to the standard phone network and systems ANI/ALI solution,
which still does not (completely) support GPS coordinates at this point. In
addition, while there were phases (phase I and phase II) of cell phone
location compliance put into place by the federal government, most networks
and phone companies lagged far behind in implementation of those standards. On
top of that, city and county 911 dispatch centers (PSAP and secondary centers)
also have to upgrade their phone and CAD integrations to support better
location services.

As for why it isn't being disrupted. Simple, looooooooong sales cycles for an
extremely limited market that is vigorously defended by the incumbents.
Seriously, it isn't rare for a 2-3 year sales cycle for a lot of 911
components and systems. 18 months is about the normal when it involves
critical systems with 12 months being probably the fastest you see anything
change. Not to mention, the partners you need involved to make a solution work
and be palatable to the 911 centers are the exact same companies who want to
keep you out of their market, so it isn't easy. Not impossible, just not very
probable without seriously deep pockets to support what would likely be a 3-5
year development to first sale. It makes selling to enterprises look like a
fast process and cake walk.

~~~
OJFord
Why don't Android, iOS, WP, etc. utilise GPS/WiFi when the dialer app dials
999/911/111/etc. and encode the caller's location in the call?

Sure, there'd need to be a standard for doing that - if an obvious choice (or
combination of choices) doesn't already exist - but to the naïve observer (me)
that would seem far simpler than massive legacy hardware upgrades.

Hell, it wouldn't even have to be encoded: it could just `say "caller is at
$LOCATION"` prior to connecting the caller - giving the person in the call
centre clear and precise information right away.

~~~
praneshp
Then everyone here would complain about privacy/big government/orwellian
dystopia

~~~
0942v8653
For 911 only? I seriously doubt it.

~~~
retox
If it's possible, the government and eventually private companies will have
access.

~~~
amagumori
That's the thing, the government and private companies _already have access to
your location data_ so it should be a no-brainer to extend that access to
emergency response - a use of location data that would actually benefit the
owner of the data, unlike gov't and private use of location data, which has a
high benefit for gov't/private sector and marginal if any benefit for the data
owner.

------
db48x
Because 911 was designed for ordinary landline telephones, before GPS existed,
before computers existed. It's just a telephone call, not an app running on
your phone.

Granted, it could rely on the software running on your phone to add
information for the dispatcher, but not everyone has one, and not everyone who
does has the same kind. And that's a good thing!

So it takes standardization, and government regulation. Standardization can
work pretty well when there's a nice tight feedback loop with customers who
are interested in the results (web browsers, for instance). How many telephone
customers would switch phones based on the details of how well the phone
supports 911-related features? It's not like we can test them without actually
calling 911.

Government regulation can also work, provided you're willing to pay the costs:
time and money. Lots of time, and lots of money. In fact, it costs so much for
the government to regulate things like this that we end up in this exact
situation. Phones have completely changed since the last 911 regulations were
updated, requiring telcos to provide location information to 911 when the
caller is using a mobile phone. It took years after that regulation was
introduced before the telcos were compliant, and before all the local dispatch
operations could use the information.

The same would happen today if new regulations were introduced requiring the
phone itself to send this information; it would take years for anything to
happen. (Though I bet Google and Apple could move faster than the telcos,
they've certainly proved to be capable of that.)

And that's all ignoring the inaccuracy of GPS when inside of buildings, the
time it takes for the phone to determine the location, etc.

Still, in spite of all of that, now is probably a decent time to start making
those changes. It's been long enough since the last updates to the
regulations, and new phones are capable enough now, that you'd have a decent
chance of getting it done eventually.

------
Jeremy1026
Because pizza apps use the GPS chip in your phone to get the Lat/Long of your
location, and sends it via HTTP(S) to the pizza shop. Currently, cell
phones/cell networks aren't able to access the GPS chip on your device and
send that data to the receiving party.

------
underyx
Maybe a possible solution (and startup idea) would be to have an app for
initiating emergency calls, which puts the user into a conference call with an
assistant operator at the app's developer company and a 911 dispatcher.

\- If the user doesn't know the location, and they have given the app
permission to read GPS data the assistant operator could check the phone's
location data and chime in with the correct address in the conversation.

\- If the user is unable to speak, they could send text messages to the
assistant operator, who would relay them to the 911 dispatcher.

\- If the user is unable to do anything more than pressing a button, and if
they've given the app permission for this, the assistant operator could check
the messages or other data on the user's phone to try and find out what the
issue is (e.g. domestic violence.)

\- The user could initiate a video call with the assistant operator who could
theoretically be able to more accurately describe certain issues (assuming
they are better trained medically) than the user themselves could.

------
crivabene
I live in Milan, Italy. A few months ago I had to call 112 (our 911
equivalent) after witnessing a bad car accident while looking outside of the
window. The dispatcher on the other side of the phone gave me my location
(which was 100% correct, both street name and number) and asked me to confirm.
I suppose this was possible thanks to E112 [0], but I am not 100% sure.

[0]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/112_(emergency_telephone_num...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/112_\(emergency_telephone_number\)#E112)

------
classicteddy
Actually, in Finland the local 911 equivalent (112 Suomi) knows your location:
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=fi.digia.suomi...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=fi.digia.suomi112&hl=en)

"The 112 Suomi application enables the automatic delivery of the caller's
location information to the emergency service dispatcher (in Finland).
Continued use of GPS running in the background can dramatically decrease
battery life.

By using this application you agree to the following terms and conditions:
[http://www.digia.com/PageFiles/112](http://www.digia.com/PageFiles/112)
20Suomi/112-Suomi-app-user's-licence-agreement.pdf Registry extract according
to the Personal Information Act:
[http://www.digia.com/PageFiles/112](http://www.digia.com/PageFiles/112)
Suomi/112-Suomi-app-registry-extract.pdf"

------
Broken_Hippo
It isn't just 911 in the states :: It is similar here in Norway and gives me a
bit of worry... if I ever need emergency services, that is. I guess they can
look it up, but it takes longer.

Here there is an app that will send that information to 911, without worrying
about giving special permissions at the time of the call. I'm not sure why
that isn't standard on cell phones everywhere, especially since phones
generally come pre-loaded with apps. I know that landlines in the states send
the information to 911, so I would think some people much smarter than I would
be able to make an interface to go between the two. I suppose that would take
some time, given how well the government seems to work together to get
important things done these days.

------
ubertaco
I don't know many details about the problem, but I might suspect there's also
a "perfect is the enemy of good" issue here; there are serious consequences
for getting a 911 call _precisely_ wrong, so it's better to be _approximately_
correct and let humans do the work of narrowing-down. With a pizza delivery,
if they drive up to 1234 Somewhere Lane and knock on the door asking for 1236
Somewhere Lane, someone's going to point out the problem (and if not, the cost
is relatively low), so it's okay to be _precisely_ incorrect.

------
YesThatTom2
Yet another example of capitalism run amuck letting people die in the name of
profits.

The phone companies COULD upgrade to newer technology right now, but that
would cost money.

Or...

They could wait until it is a crisis and then DEMAND that municipal
governments pay for the upgrade.

Which would you do?

~~~
maxerickson
Why would it become a crisis? Crime is down so access to emergency services at
least isn't becoming more urgent over time. And the necessary technology is
slowly being deployed and integrated, so in that respect time should improve
the situation, not make it worse.

~~~
joesmo
I think those people who really needed 911 services and died because the
services couldn't get to them would disagree slightly with you if they could
and so would their families. But it's not a crisis; it's just a bunch of
people dying. No big deal.

~~~
wccrawford
This question came up because of a John Olliver segment about this in which he
said that emergency services claims they cannot pinpoint 20% (1 in 5!) people
via existing systems.

He emphasized that number and tried to make a big deal of it, neglecting to
mention that it really only matters in situations where the person can't
describe their location anyhow.

He gave an example of someone who was in a car in a lake, and gave the 911
operator the names of the streets from the nearby sign and they were unable to
find one of the streets on their map. The person died.

So people _are_ dying from this already. And I'm sure the families are already
making as much noise as they can.

In the end, the answer is: Despite our crazy headlong rush into technology,
not everything is as advanced as we'd like, and there are various reasons why
not. From conspiracies to capitalism to good old fashioned privacy, it just
isn't there yet.

------
aaron695
Sounds like a privacy nightmare. Phone can override all settings and send my
location.

Not to say you cant make money off it.

------
Focalise
Government vs private enterprise.

------
Mz
Because human society values selling pizza more than saving lives. If we
really cared, we would have a 911 app as well and it would know exactly where
you are if you use it to dial 911. But, nope, we don't actually care that
much.

(This is not snark, in case you are wondering.)

~~~
asfarley
I think your point is basically correct - this is an economics question rather
than a technical question.

My conclusion isn't that society doesn't value human lives; it's that the
government isn't very efficient, and 911 dispatch is usually in the realm of
government rather than private industry.

I wonder if there are any examples of privatized ambulance/emergency response
service outperforming public services.

~~~
Mz
No, I really think it boils down to screwed up priorities. You can frame that
any way you want, but it boils down to valuing pizza sales (or any other kind
of sales) more than solving this.

On the other hand, I have been homeless for nearly 4.5 years. Putting up with
classier bullshit has made me question my high ideals. Caring about doing the
right thing seems to only bite me in the ass. It neither makes money nor gets
respected. Just today a project of mine created to be helpful to people was
described as _sponsored content._

I am pretty fed up. We live in a shitty world. Trying to make things better
gets nothing but shit in response.

I wish I could just check out and stop caring. But, unfortunately, I am not
likely to win the lottery, so I am failing to find a path forward on taking
the position of "Fuck you, got mine."

Anyway, this was perhaps bad timing on your part for posting this here. My
grumpiness about the world isn't intended as a personal attack.

Take care.

