
Meth, the Forgotten Killer, Is Back - fmihaila
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/us/meth-crystal-drug.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
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md224
I'm almost glad that the meth being sold is described as "pure"... I'm tired
of hearing about deaths from heroin cut with fentanyl.

Also: I would be interested to know if anyone has attempted to use a Desoxyn
(pharmaceutical methamphetamine) taper to get someone out of meth addiction.

It's interesting that Desoxyn can be prescribed safely (?) to patients while
crystal meth is a "killer". I'm guessing dosage and medical supervision makes
a big difference in outcomes.

~~~
TTPrograms
It's not really even clear to me that meth is that much of a killer. The
article quotes 6000 deaths per year for all stimulants in the US. Alcohol
related deaths per year in the US seems to be around 88,000. Obviously alcohol
use is more common, but you also have confounding issues of increased risky
behavior taking in general for meth users.

~~~
tyingq
It's not that it's a killer, it's that it is a destroyer of lives. Produces
lots of 20ish year olds with deep pockmarks, no teeth, paranoia issues, Hep C,
HIV, etc. Unemployable zombies with tendencies to shoplift, drive impaired,
petty theft, etc. It's in the same category as crack cocaine. Very few
functional serious users. Unlike, say alcohol, mdma, ectasy, benzodiazapines,
marijuana, etc.

Meth really is a nasty business.

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qwerty456127
The major problem with meth is that people don't know how to use it right
(e.g. you are to take much much more vitamins (A and E in particular),
minerals and antioxidants, piracetam and _drink much much much more water_
(even though this will make you pee really often) if you use meth and you
should never inject it but prefer taking it orally and in as small amounts as
possible while still getting the effect (magnesium and piracetam can help
fighting tolerance development) and you should avoid supplementing extra
tyrosine/dopa). Another serious problem for those who want to use meth to
improve their productivity and relief ADHD is that legal desoxyn costs
enormous amounts of money and can be rather hard to get a prescription for
(and is not available outside of the USA at all - if a qualified American
doctor confirms you need it you will still have to use the black market to
follow his advice if you travel abroad).

~~~
grondilu
> people don't know how to use it right

IMHO you should not even suggest there is a "right" way to use meth. If you do
you're basically advocating for drug use.

There is no right way to do drugs. Don't do drugs kids, period.

~~~
qwerty456127
There certainly are right ways to use drugs and doctors are generally supposed
to know them. And some people without a medical degree/license happen to know
too though they're quite rare to meet. I don't advocate mindless illegal abuse
of any substances but I don't advocate mindless falsely-moralist medical
purism and all the nonsensical "war on drugs" policy either.

By the way I am about 99% sure that the main reason behind drug abuse
epidemics, drug-induced degradation and deaths is lack of relevant education
(the real kind, not just the scary "don't use drugs" stuff), lack of
understanding and support. NO SUBJECT EVER should be made unspeakable. The
more serious a problem is - the harder we are to try to actually understand it
and everything relevant to it thoroughly and educate everybody to understand
that. Imagine we would just teach kids not to use electricity / not to friend
with those who use it and scare them about electrical shocks instead of
telling them they should use it with their hands dry.

~~~
grondilu
Even if there are, you should not publicly talk about them. Otherwise, what's
to stop me from thinking you're a meth dealer who's advertising its product?

~~~
King-Aaron
> Otherwise, what's to stop me from thinking you're a meth dealer who's
> advertising its product? reply

Common sense, perhaps?

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Mononokay
It didn't particularly ever leave. The Midwestern US is hit particularly hard
with it, and has been for decades.

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throwaway76025
Dosage is the critical factor for any drug and everyone is absolutely unique
(and, more so, in unique life circumstances at a given point) as it pertains
to mind altering substances and the actual outcome of their lives. Set and
setting matter. If you’re depressed and doing nothing but getting stoned,
you’re using weed to keep yourself busy. It offers potential for “wasting”
away, by staying stoned.

Marijuana is commonly abused and does ruin lives. Washed up marijuana addicts
are common, yielding lost potential for the addict and a loss for society. The
unproductive stoner has long been an American cliche, but true. (file_id.diz)

Meth, on the other hand, leaves little room for responsible recreational use.
I’d be shocked if more than 1% of people who’ve ever tried meth would call
themselves “responsible casual users”.

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neonate
[http://archive.is/NFvUI](http://archive.is/NFvUI)

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xbmcuser
Is meth high different from other drugs. And if other comparably safer drugs
were available legally would it decrease the usage of meth. I do believe if
drugs were legalised it is a huge industry so billions would be spent of
finding a safe way to get high.

~~~
tyingq
It seems different because it has the addiction proclivities of heroin coupled
with crazy cheap and ubiquitous availability. Any semi educated person can
cook it locally.

Plus it's devastating physically. The welts, scratching, paranoia, food
avoidance, tooth eating qualities, etc, are pretty unique. It wrecks your body
pretty fast. Serious meth addicts seem to age at a 10x+ factor compared to
other addicts. Twentyish old people look 40+ after just a year or so after
getting hooked.

I'm pretty liberal, but I would fight against legalization of meth. It's
really terrible. Meet a girl in her 20's that's been on it a year or two and
you might see the issue. Not yet 30, but no teeth left, massive skin issues on
their face/arms/upper torso from the welts/scratching, emaciated, and
infertile. Also often HIV and/or Hep-C from trading sex for drugs. That shit
is pure poison.

~~~
TTPrograms
I think the effects you're describing are mostly all the result of developed
behaviors / personal neglect from taking large does regularly. Taking high
doses of, ex. Adderall for two years would likely have similar effects.

~~~
tyingq
Maybe. I recall uppers/amphetamines (phenphen/etc) being popular in the 90's
with college kids, bored/depressed housewives and high stress occupations. Bad
effects for sure, but I don't recall toothless pockmarked emaciated zombies
carrying serious STDs.

I do feel differently about marijuana, ecstasy, benzodiazepines, mdma, etc.
They don't seem much different from alcohol, which we openly condone, despite
the obvious issues. At least none of them (mostly) destroy lives in the span
of a few years.

Opiates are somewhere in the middle for me. Legalization seems dangerous, but
not as obviously stupid as for meth. It's in the same category as crack for
me. No real casual/functioning users, really, just almost inevitable misery.

~~~
opportune
Actually MDMA is probably the most dangerous drug that people are trying to
get legalized. If I had a teenager, I wouldn't be concerned at all if xanax or
weed were legal. Plenty of people take these every day and get by just fine. I
could totally see a stupid teenager taking MDMA 1-2 times a week for a good
time, and then totally frying out their brain as a consequence. Look at what
it does: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA#Long-
term](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA#Long-term)

That said, I would still support its legalization as long as it could only be
administered in controlled environments.

~~~
King-Aaron
> Look at what it does:

> As of 2015, the long-term effects of MDMA on human brain structure and
> function have not been fully determined.

MDMA in itself isn't as bad as other drugs, as has been mentioned. It's the
compounds that it's cut/mixed with that poses most of the immediate dangers.
In fact, the therapeutic potential of MDMA is reason enough for it's
rescheduling.

[http://www.maps.org/research/mdma](http://www.maps.org/research/mdma)

~~~
opportune
That's true in aggregate, but there is still obvious evidence that when taken
over long periods, MDMA results in neurodegeneration, and that this is only
partially reversible. Serotonergic pathways are especially effected, which is
why acute MDMA use causes short-term depressive symptoms (tolerance), and
long-term MDMA causes long-term depressive symptoms (neurotoxicity).

I'm not saying MDMA is as bad as other drugs, nor that it should be illegal.
My cousin's uncle's daughter's brother has taken it several times, and he
thinks it definitely has a lot of potential for therapy - can't attest to
PTSD, but he can absolutely see it working for couple's counseling.

What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be something you can pick up for $5 at
the gas station. If MDMA were legal, I would want there to be some pseudofed-
like limit to how often you could purchase it (one dose every 3 months is
generally considered safe), and I would also want it to be required to take
the drug immediately after purchase.

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CryoLogic
Pardon my curiosity but how does Meth differ from Adderall in terms of side
effects? My understanding is they are very similar but meth is stronger?

Being in tech I know many people with Adderall perscriptions but none of the
side effects typically reported for meth.

At low dose is it similar to Adderall? Is it only huge doses that result in
scary sides?

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
The key difference between methamphetamine and adderall is that meth is
neurotoxic at clinical doses, while adderall is actually neuroprotective. Meth
use also causes negative side effects like dry mouth, dizziness, etc much more
frequently and powerfully than amphetamine. Users also report that meth tends
to hit much "harder" compared to amphetamine, increasing its addiction
potential. It mostly is the high doses that cause the side effects, but
because of the impurities in street meth, it's nearly impossible to properly
weigh the amounts required for adderall-like usage(5-10mg), and even then,
it's still neurotoxic. This means that most street users use large doses that
cause those effects.

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goldenkey
I'm not special in any way. But I've been pretty liberal with drugs despite
their stigma.

Before I talk about myself, I'd like to point out a sore spot in our
classification of drug culture -- Being a "nerd" / intellectual does not
include being a square / prude. Though they go hand and hand often, because
up-tight people tend to keep to themselves, and avoid any risk-taking
behavior. These people tend to be well-learned because reading and learning is
an extremely low-risk endeavor.

But I think the truly smart people take evidence in a bayesian way, they
become aware of risks, yet know to reason from first principles. The only way
to yield new knowledge is to veer from the well-trodden paths.

And so, with that preamble out of the way, I take certain drugs often for
medical reasons. I've done pretty much every drug under the sun in my college
days, and every one of those drugs changed me in a positive way, despite the
prude and straight-edged grandmas protesting that I would become addicted or
go bonkers, or kill myself somehow. The psychadelics in my opinion, are the
most worthwhile drugs, that only really need to be tried ONCE to have an
immense effect on someones' life. I don't think someone should do acid every
day -- I'm not that guy. But trying it once is definitely worthwhile. And any
more than the first time, even a few times, is not even all that profound.

I take amphetamines orally, a few times a week to help me with my focus
issues, when studying. I have insufflated them before, back in college, and
it's not good for the noses' capillaries, the sinuses, etc.. It's just dumb, a
party thing, what immediacy could be gained through faster administration is
lost in the mal health effects.

I have chronic pain from multiple herniated discs from an accident. I take
opiates daily to help with focus, because pain is extremely exhausting, and
will wear you down. You will literally feel mentally tired from the body
having to had processed pain -- you'll even need to eat more.

I disagree with synthetic opiates being prescribed. Oxycodone is stronger than
heroin in receptor affinity. Addicts will even prefer it, in even oral
formulations, versus heroin. Morphine on the other hand, is less pleasurable,
and is the gold standard for pain. The synthetics like Oxycodone, Oxymorphone,
Hydrocodone, were created because the side effects of morphine were deemed too
numerous. When I first took morphine, I hated it. It made me nauseous, made my
poops hard, and well, it just made me dizzy and disoriented. But once I gave
it another chance, it worked really well. Morphine and codeine are the poppy
plants natural alkaloids. Why go with a synthetic opiate designed to have a
stronger affinity than the natural one?? That is just asking for addictions.

If insurance in the United States were better, Tapentadol would actually be
the drug of choice for pain relief that all doctors should prescribe. Tramadol
works great for minor pain, and Tapentadol is the second revision of Tramadol,
designed for moderate to strong pain, by the same drug company that discovered
Tramadol. But unfortunately, it costs $1500 a bottle for the innovation. I
used to take it until I lost my good insurance. It is both an opiate and a
norepinephrine agonist, like Tramadol, but has stronger opioid agonism. Souped
up Tramadol. Less physically addictive than pure opioids like morphine, yet
stronger pain relief, drug science is amazing.

Both of these drugs, amphetamines, morphine, can be abused. But they have so
much utility for people who can benefit from them. Amphetamine abuse is high
in rural communities that utilize a lot of manual labor. And that naturally
follows from amphetamines enabling a higher capacity to do both physical and
mental work.

So when I see the blind opinion that drugs are bad..mmkay -- that they will
instantly addict even open-minded rational, logical people -- I have to
provide the other perspective. Responsible use. Drugs improving someones' life
who would otherwise be severely tired and inefficient.

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bsder
I wonder how much of the cartels switching to meth is the fact that
legalization is sapping their profits from marijuana.

