

NSA leaker Edward Snowden: U.S. targets China with hackers - zwieback
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/snowden-wants-people-of-hong-kong-to-decide-my-fate/2013/06/12/a69e94ee-d370-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html

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grecy
While many in the tech community won't see this as news, I think it's
important for the American people to realize what the government is doing to
other countries on their behalf.

For anyone that doesn't know what I'm talking about, I strongly suggest you
spend some time in any of Honduras, Panama, Chile, Peru, Bolivia, Argentina,
etc.

People in those countries don't "Hate Americans because of their Freedom(TM)",
they dislike America for what it's done to their countries for decades.

Americans need to know about this kind of action being taken by their
government so they can have input on whether it should continue or not.

EDIT: Yes, I meant "Kind _of_ action" ... thanks.

~~~
skwirl
In the context of China, this is a red herring. China is not a poor little
country being bullied around by the United States. China is a major power and
has a long history of engaging in cyber attacks against the US government and
US companies, including many companies that people here work for. This is a
serious PITA for the tech industry and has resulted in data being stolen from
hundreds of companies. We expect our government to do something about it, and
Snowden leaking the details of how they are doing it is not benevolent in any
sense, in my opinion.

~~~
guelo
We get mad at China for hacking us so shouldn't the Chinese get mad about us
hacking them? Really it needs to stop on all sides but each side, government
and civilians, believe that they are entitled to hacking foreigners.

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brown9-2
Isn't this sort of the entire purpose of an signals intelligence agency?

China is a target of US hacking. The US is a target of Chinese hacking. And so
on and so forth for any other country's names you can swap in or any other
intelligence gathering mechanism you can replace "hacking" with.

One part of this story that has always seemed baffling is his shock that
espionage, the act of stealing secrets or convincing someone to betray their
oaths and steal secrets for you, requires some less-than-moral activities.

 _And by disclosing that he possesses documents that he says describe U.S.
hacking against China, he appeared to be trying to win support from the
Chinese government._

This seems to be transitioning from leaking to let Americans know how their
civil rights are being violated into something else.

~~~
krapp
Even with all of this going on, affront to liberty that it is, I'd be more
upset if we weren't trying to hack China. An up and coming communist
superpower, and a potential military and technological rival? Of course we're
trying to hack the bejesus out of them. Everything we accuse them of doing -
penetrating our media, penetrating our infrastructure, whatever, we're trying
to do. This is not even controversial, this is the part of their job they're
supposed to be doing, 'owning other countries.'

~~~
brown9-2
This isn't even that much of a reveal by Snowden considering 1) the Chinese
would already know about this and 2) a lot of details about NSA's TAO group
have already been published
([http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/10/inside_the_...](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/10/inside_the_nsa_s_ultra_secret_china_hacking_group)).

So now he is using the secrets he learned to buy favor from the Chinese
government?

~~~
tdirect
If he did indeed reveal this, how is it "buying favor from the Chinese
government"? It's hard to imagine the government of China doesn't already know
about these attacks.

The beneficiary of this information is the U.S. public, so they can actually
have a real discussion about cyber warfare, rather than simply believing the
government line of "China hacks us, and we only defend...". How can we have a
real discussion about our role in the world if we're told only about foreign
aggression and not our own?

------
tokenadult
I should hope so. At a minimum, even in a time of peace between China and the
United States, the United States should be aware of what online
vulnerabilities China has, whether to advise China on how to reduce those
during an alliance, or whether to make use of those during a conflict.

(After all, it is plain enough that China looks at the issue as one such that
it has to find out what vulnerabilities the United States government and
private businesses have.)

From the article: "Snowden’s claims could not be verified, and U.S. officials
did not respond to immediate requests for comment."

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skygazer
My sympathy erodes as he diverges from whistle-blower to indiscriminate
national secret revealer. He's now distracting from, and deminishing the
impact of the primary story: the government massively trampling our personal
privacy. Perhaps he's trying to raise support in Hong Kong, but he may well
lose it in the US.

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apalmer
But it has been clear for a while that Snowden is not in it strictly for the
heroism... the tone/slant and other circumstantial info to my mind seems to
align him more with espionage than true whistleblowing.

~~~
ollysb
I've yet to see an opportunity for much personal gain on his part, what's
caused you to cast him in that light?

~~~
apalmer
ummmm lets play devils advocate, how much would China pay Snowden for the
design documents, specifications, etc for an advanced system for monitoring
and extracting an entire nations online and phone habits? keep in mind china
fairly recently got busted stealing of cybersitters net nanny software to
power their national green dam project.

How much would the propaganda value of China being able to shirk its label as
human rights invasion of internet privacy by showing that the USA is doing the
same thing be worth? China protecting freedom of expression online...

Snowden is very clearly signalling that he has a lot more secrets, and would
like to get some kind of special consideration from china. in particular he
seems to be claiming he has a lot of info on US cyber attacks on China, which
in no way are 'protecting the US constitution' and in everyway are good old
fashion espionage.

... then again wonder if Snowden is going to be the justification for even
stronger snooping once he turns out to be a spy.

~~~
tdirect
He has not at all signaled, so far, that he would like any special
consideration from China. He has not claimed to have "a lot of info" on US
cyber attacks on China. He has said he would let Hong Kong decide whether he
deserves protection from extradition.

He has said the U.S. is cyber-attacking China. This is important information
for the U.S. public to know when the U.S. government is criticizing China for
cyber attacks. How can people hold the executive branch accountable when
they're basically being lied to? ("The Chinese are cyber-attacking us, and we
only defend...") Is there a primary aggressor in the cyber war? It's an
important question.

Suggesting he is a spy for revealing very non-specific information that the
Chinese government already knows but the American people do not is ridiculous.

------
Jd
A bizarre play by Snowden, who seems to have gone to Hong Kong in order to be
in the strange space that currently exists between the US and China right now,
where despite the normal standard of extradition from HK to the US, there
exists the possibility of a Chinese veto. Here, I think Snowden is primarily
stalling for time, saying that if China helps his cause (i.e. not allowing him
to be extradited) he might do something that helps China.

I don't really know how I feel about this either ethically or as a strategy,
but it certainly could play out to Snowden's personal advantage after a bit of
time on the international stage. I'd imagine some pretty senior level guys
will get involved, and they will decide what to do with Snowden.

That said, regardless of his ultimate fate, this does seem like a legitimate
and probably successful tactic for him to buy himself a bit more time in Hong
Kong. The Chinese government will probably want to know what he knows, but
they will presumably also have to wait for him to reveal what he is willing to
over time.

Keep in mind Snowden has already hinted he knows some pretty "dirty secrets"
and given his crypto background, etc. it is possible he has some sort of other
treasure trove of documents that he hasn't handed over to the reporters yet --
this is sort of an ugly and dangerous game, but I'm sure he knew that from the
moment he set things in motion.

~~~
aswanson
I'm not so certain he thought things through as far you give him credit for.
He seems to be just playing it by ear; not the long-term consequence type
thinker. How noble is it to give up state secrets from a country that monitors
its citizens to a country that more heavily monitors its citizens, actively
represses the flow of information into its borders, and allows only one
political party. He's starting to look stupid and short-sighted if this is
true.

~~~
Jd
I agree "if it is true," but the interview makes him look like a fairly smart
sort of fellow and he has obviously been considering this for a long time (5+
years), so at the very least he's probably thought through the details more
than anyone currently discovering this story via Hacker News.

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skwirl
While the facts of the statement would not be surprising to anyone, making
these kind of statements are not going to help Snowden as he is viewed in the
United States. I don't view this at all as a noble leak. This particular leak
seems to be blatantly self serving and he seems to be outright threatening to
harm U.S. national security to keep the U.S. off his back and to keep in favor
of the Chinese government.

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tomjen3
Hmm, it is one thing to leak secrets that may be relevant for the public at
large. It is quite another to give secrets to your countries competitors.

~~~
tdirect
That the U.S. may be the cyber aggressor is very important information for the
American people.

If this is the case, it's difficult to believe the government of China doesn't
already know...

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tptacek
Every network security professional in the US believes the US sponsors,
coordinates, and executes online attacks against China (as China clearly does
to the US). This is a little like a "revelation" from a sysadmin for a drone
C&C site that the US does indeed engage in drone strikes.

~~~
tikums
Emperor's New Clothes. By openly restating something that has been "obvious",
"implicit" or "well known", we've been served with a wake-up call.

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Skalman
Many on this thread are suspiciously skeptical of Snowden. I could easily see
this as the Washington Post trying to portrait him as cooperating with China.
I can't imagine China being interested, and I highly doubt Snowden would think
they are. The only value to China would be PR.

~~~
brown9-2
Why is our skepticism suspicious? A few of us have been suspicious all along.

Regardless to what value he provides to China with this, his motives are
confusing. Is he seeking to save American's civil liberties or attempting
something else?

~~~
mullingitover
Perhaps he's seeking to save America's civil liberties without becoming a
martyr needlessly?

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tome
Well, I supported Snowden till now. What was the point of saying this?
Firstly, it's obvious. Secondly, it's not in the national interest of US
citizens to have this openly talked about.

~~~
jstedfast
if it was so obvious, why did it turn you against him? did your delicate
sensibilities get hurt or something?

I honestly don't understand how this could have change your opinion on him
based on something you not only acknowledge is true, but also as "obvious".

~~~
tome
Because it changes my impression of what he's in this game for. My first
impression was that he wanted to make the US government look bad in the eyes
of US citizens, so the citizens could fix the problem. Now my impression is
that he wants to make the US look bad in terms of its foreign policy, which is
something entirely different.

~~~
tdirect
I think this differs very little from the other revelations.

This does make the government look bad in the eyes of US citizens--why are we
crying foul at China when we are doing exactly the same thing, and may even be
the more aggressive party?

If we are conducting this sort of warfare, the citizenry needs to know. It's
probably a better issue to face publicly than to let it slowly morph into a
new cold war espionage situation with China.

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josh2600
This isn't news.

When you look at Keith Alexander's profile, just what do you think
"Operations" are?

[http://www.nsa.gov/about/leadership/bio_alexander.shtml](http://www.nsa.gov/about/leadership/bio_alexander.shtml)

~~~
apalmer
This is absolutely true, but it doesnt seem to be in line with the
'whistleblower' image that has been projected so far, and more in line with
plain espionage.

It appears to my jaded eye that Snowden copied everything possible while in
the NSA, revealed a certain amount to rile up the public opinion in his favor
and to cover over the fact he was copying everything in sight.

He seems to be positioning himself as a literal espionage agent right now,
giving operational secrets or at least implying he is willing to reveal
operational secrets for special treatment from china... and no doubt money.

The tone of his statements seem to be like a chinese propaganda mouth peice
right now... funny how things are never as simple as they look at first glance

~~~
tdirect
> giving operational secrets or at least implying he is willing to reveal
> operational secrets for special treatment from china... and no doubt money

Could you please offer citation?

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tzs
I am very puzzled:

> And by disclosing that he possesses documents that he says describe U.S.
> hacking against China, he appeared to be trying to win support from the
> Chinese government.

China is known to be active in hacking attempts against US government and US
industrial targets. They would therefore be greatly interested in any inside
information they could get about US defenses against such attempts.

The NSA would likely have information on those defenses.

I would expect, then, that China would be quite interested in getting their
hands on any NSA employee with a high security clearance in order to question
them about those defenses. Snowden is publicly known to be a person. He likely
has information that would also help China with their own internal spying
programs.

And now, Snowden is letting China know that he's got even more valuable
information of particular interest to them.

Given this, WHY did he pick Honk Kong to flee to? If China wants that
information (and it is hard to see how they could not want it), their best
move is to kidnap him and blame it on foreign agents (hinting that they think
the US took him--which many people would find quite believable) and make him
turn over his information to them.

~~~
diminoten
Because he's a traitor, that's why. And not your Bradley Manning, "fuzzy
lines" kind of whistleblower.

~~~
mpyne
Well... let's wait until he actually leaks something sensitive before we go
throwing that around. It's not impossible he's a traitor based on what else
he's given to Greenwald, but I personally wouldn't make that call at this
time.

~~~
diminoten
That's fair, but you have to admit that this colors some of the things he's
said.

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joonix
And his systems administrator position in Hawaii for a contractor gives him
access to records of this hacking? If so, where are the documents?

Seems he's trying to build a platform and turn into a pundit/commentator. A
whistleblower should just hand over documents and attest to what he's seen
personally from his/her inside position.

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Kiro
Not a big fan of this guy tbh.

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peripetylabs
Although this wasn't news to most people here, keep in mind that the US has
always denied doing economic espionage, against China or anyone else. The
Snowden leak also revealed that the largest target of US espionage in Europe
is Germany -- I can't think of any reason for that other than economic
espionage. This certainly raises questions.

------
mpyne
Breaking news from NSA leaker Snowden: "Water is wet, Cubs won't win the
Series."

------
noiseapple
Edward Snowden joined the communist?

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wissler
"According to Snowden, the NSA has engaged in more than 61,000 hacking
operations worldwide, including hundreds aimed at Chinese targets. Among the
targets were universities, businesses and public officials."

So a tiny fraction are aimed at China, and this is the headline that's chosen?
Did Snowden himself specifically call out China or is it just the reporter
doing that?

~~~
Kylekramer
This is the article WaPo is taking its info from:
[http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259508/edward-
sn...](http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259508/edward-snowden-us-
government-has-been-hacking-hong-kong-and-china)

It is a HK paper, so maybe the local angle is being pushed. And it doesn't
have direct quotes from him about Chinese hacking. Still, it is an odd thing
to even bring up and provide documents regarding considering how much it would
call his credibility into question. Especially with how much control he had
over the interview.

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taktix
Americans have been so distracted with US propaganda on how bad China is with
human rights, they didn't notice their own freedoms being pickpocketed. Now
look at how bad it is.

Snowden is a courageous, smart guy who is making a BIG point about the
hypocrisy of the US government. He's making one of the biggest statements of
the century, and he's put his life on the line to do it. Recognize!

