
TikTok's new CEO says company will reveal how its algorithms work - Firebrand
https://www.axios.com/tiktoks-new-ceo-says-company-will-reveal-how-its-algorithms-work-aff01b6c-8f33-454f-9b4a-7d52292ce501.html
======
_fat_santa
Sounds like a last ditch effort to prevent the app from getting banned in
several countries. I have two takes, one it's very admirable for a company to
release its algorithms and drive more transparency and I think it will help
the public trust ByteDance more.

The other take is much more cynical. When they finally release the algorithm
how will we know that's the whole story? I'm sure researchers will have to
formally verify it somehow (not an expert here so I'm speculating). Also this
does nothing to actually prevent them from further abusing user data. Seems
like this release is just a red herring that diverts attention from the other
shady stuff they are doing.

~~~
billfruit
Clearly though neither Apple nor Google have thought TikTok problematic enough
to not delist it from their app stores.

I don't think any app should be banned unless they indulge in
criminality/illegality which needs to be proven in law.

~~~
DiogenesKynikos
Exactly, but all that has gone out the window when it comes to Chinese
companies.

The US has waged an aggressive campaign to destroy Huawei - pressuring
governments around the world to ban use of their equipment and threatening
Huawei's suppliers with sanctions (even its non-US suppliers) - based on
completely unsupported claims of surveillance. The message to China is: we
want you to open _your_ market to _our_ high-tech products, but you're not
allowed to develop your own high-tech products, much less sell them abroad.
The US was fine with China being a platform for low-wage labor for Western
companies, but the US not okay with the existence of a peer-level competitor
on the world stage.

Trump's impulsive tendencies make this even more dangerous. The closing of the
Houston consulate was a dramatic step. The possible cutting off of diplomatic
relations between the world's two largest powers is extremely alarming. As the
election gets closer, however, I fear we'll see more such abrupt actions,
especially if Trump's poll numbers continue to slump.

~~~
maxdo
Uhm, how you even come up with this conclusions ?? China was throwing away so
many US companies. Stole so many IP with no trials or fines for that. US
didn't protect their interests for years. Any other normal country would
protect their businesses years ago. This pressure is very soft and kind
comparing how China treat any other foreign company not only US.

~~~
DiogenesKynikos
The IP theft claims are massively played up. American companies did business
in China because it made them money, even despite possible IP theft or IP
transfer agreements.

The US has protected its interests just fine in China. Its companies have made
massive profits off of Chinese labor and in the Chinese market. In order to
join the WHO, an institution created largely by the US, China underwent all
sorts of business-friendly reforms, including privatizing parts of the
economy, lowering tariffs, and establishing IP protections. Enforcement of IP
rights has increased dramatically over the past decade, by the way.

> This pressure is very soft and kind comparing how China treat any other
> foreign company not only US.

China isn't going around the world trying to force foreign companies to stop
doing business with American companies. The US' actions against Chinese
companies are far more extreme than the other way around.

~~~
DiogenesKynikos
*WTO, not WHO

------
filleduchaos
As something of an outsider (being from West Africa), the extent of the panic
over TikTok is more than a little amusing to me. I understand how it might be
different for an American citizen, but to me much of it frankly sounds like
one third party trying to paint another as the devil incarnate over much the
same practices. Plus unlike many American data farms masquerading as services,
TikTok does actually provide me with a measurably positive experience as a
content consumer; a feed that contains fresh, relatively non-gamified content
that I actually want to see.

I just treat the platform like I treat the likes of Facebook. Accessed only
through the web in a sandbox, etc.

~~~
alfalfasprout
The american government isn't using the data to openly oppress entire groups
of people though.

~~~
filleduchaos
Didn't the US have that entire thing with PRISM/the NSA?

Ah, I forget, it's the US so its own surveillance programs are obviously above
board and only used for good. The leader of the free world or some such.

~~~
ardy42
>> The american government isn't using the data to openly oppress entire
groups of people though.

> Didn't the US have that entire thing with PRISM/the NSA?

You can possess a gun, you can use that gun to kill someone in self defense,
or you can use the gun to kill some innocent person. All those things are very
different in important ways, even though they involve guns. It's true that US
has surveillance and propaganda capabilities, but just noting that doesn't
show equivalence to China in the areas that really matter.

~~~
filleduchaos
I consider things like the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians in the
Middle East or the treatment of children in US border camps to be "areas that
really matter". For some very strange reason, most Americans I have spoken to
find it unreasonable to treat companies like, say, Github or Microsoft with
the same level of vitriol that is currently being leveled at TikTok for being
affiliated however tenuously with the CCP.

My career would pretty much be a non-starter if I refused to use such
companies' services for just as solid (if not more solid) ideological reasons
as the ones that are apparently driving y'all to approve of bans/other
boycotts of TikTok. As a pretty much neutral third party I've come to the
quite logical conclusion that the outrage is largely hypocritical theatre and
is thus not really much of my concern.

(It is worth nothing that there are Americans who for instance pressure Github
to drop their ICE contract. As far as I can see they're a minority without the
influence to make a difference.)

~~~
ardy42
> For some very strange reason, most Americans I have spoken to find it
> unreasonable to treat companies like, say, Github or Microsoft with the same
> level of vitriol that is currently being leveled at TikTok for being
> affiliated however tenuously with the CCP.

It's because this is the CCP:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-
lea...](https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-leadership-
takes-hard-line-in-secret-memo.html):

> Communist Party cadres have filled meeting halls around China to hear a
> somber, secretive warning issued by senior leaders. Power could escape their
> grip, they have been told, unless the party eradicates seven subversive
> currents coursing through Chinese society.

> These seven perils were enumerated in a memo, referred to as Document No. 9,
> that bears the unmistakable imprimatur of Xi Jinping, China’s new top
> leader. The first was “Western constitutional democracy”; others included
> promoting “universal values” of human rights, Western-inspired notions of
> media independence and civic participation, ardently pro-market “neo-
> liberalism,” and “nihilist” criticisms of the party’s traumatic past.

Add to that practices like the Xinjiang cultural destruction/forced labor
camps, the dystopian nightmare of what's happening in Hong Kong, and a
domestic surveillance apparatus that makes the people who complain about
Stingrays look like whiny babies, which all show that it's not just talk.

The US and Western companies like Microsoft definitely have issues, _but they
don 't hold a candle to the CCP's._

And I wouldn't count TikTok/ByteDance's affiliation with the CCP as "tenuous."
How much power to say "no" do you think they have?

~~~
filleduchaos
America's involvement in the Middle East and Afghanistan are "not just talk".
Drone strikes are not just talk. Its treatment of undocumented immigrant
_children_ at its borders is not just talk. Pointing as many fingers as you
can at China does not erase America's own atrocities - what, exactly, does the
civilian death toll from America's manufactured conflicts struggle to hold a
candle to? How, exactly, is the violent approach that the US has taken to the
protests currently going on within its borders so much less of a dystopian
nightmare than in Hong Kong?

> And I wouldn't count TikTok/ByteDance's affiliation with the CCP as
> "tenuous."

Github clearly, demonstrably, directly supports ICE's operations with its
contract services.

Microsoft clearly, demonstrably, directly supports the US military's
operations with its contract services.

What clear, demonstrable, direct support does TikTok give the CCP that I can
point to as a reason why I disdain it, the way I can point to Github's ICE
contract or Microsoft's JEDI contract? I would actually be quite interested in
evidence of such a thing.

Why am I expected to swallow my revulsion for the American war machine and use
Github's or Microsoft's services, but not do the same for TikTok?

> How much power to say "no" to them do you think they have?

This...is not the gotcha that you might think it is. Even if they're
implicated in harm, ByteDance at least has the dubious excuse of being
compelled to do so by the state. Github, Microsoft and co _voluntarily_ choose
to (and even compete to!) be a part of the American state's apparatus of
violence because of _money_ of all things - that really, really does not
translate into me having more respect and/or trust for them than for
ByteDance.

~~~
ardy42
> America's involvement in the Middle East and Afghanistan are "not just
> talk".

Huh? I didn't say that. I thought it was pretty clear when I said "talk" I was
referring to Document Number 9.

> How, exactly, is the violent approach that the US has taken to the protests
> currently going on within its borders so much less of a dystopian nightmare
> than in Hong Kong?

Because the dystopian part is the sense that the curtain is coming down there
and it's all over, not anything to do with the quantity of bullets or tear
gas. What's going on in the US feels more like a step on the long, dirty road
of making progress. It was _good_ that the police acted against protesters the
way they did, because that behavior wasn't new, and it reinforced the
protester's points and lead to a tipping point in public opinion.

> What clear, demonstrable, direct support does TikTok give the CCP that I can
> point to as a reason why I disdain it, the way I can point to Github's ICE
> contract or Microsoft's JEDI contract? I would actually be quite interested
> in evidence of such a thing....

> This...is not the gotcha that you might think it is. Even if they're
> implicated in harm, ByteDance at least has the dubious excuse of being
> compelled to do so by the state.

ByteDance's willingness or unwillingness is not my actual concern, and I
honestly don't really care about that. What I do care about is the fact that
they're under the control of an organization where Document Number 9 reflects
official policy goals, and TikTok's popularity gives that organization
potential capabilities here that it shouldn't have.

------
afrojack123
Hacker News is for technical people. They know this is bullshit. Its not their
algo that means anything. Its the data collection and sending it to
China/Singapore that is the problem.

~~~
isatty
What role does Singapore play in this? Genuinely curious and I do not have nor
recommend the app to anyone.

~~~
bduerst
\- Bytedance's global TikTok app is based out of datacenters in Singapore.

\- Bytedance's Chinese Toutiao app is based out of datacenters in China.

Bytedance itself is a Cayman company, so in regards to the Chinese National
Intelligence law, TikTok technically isn't required to share data with China
nor am I aware of any evidence that they actually do (despite the memes).

~~~
sukilot
Your claim is that a Chinese company can simply opt out of Chinese law by
moving their computing outside of China?

~~~
bduerst
>Bytedance itself is a Cayman company

------
reallymental
Prediction:

Color me pessimistic, but it's obviously not going to be the entire picture.
This explanation is going to live that sort of vague truth/lie land that the
majority of news today exists.

It will instill confidence amongst less tech-savvy people, by "putting it out
there" that TikTok is actually magnanimous in releasing it's secret sauce.

If by some magic they do release the real thing, it will be gamed so quickly
that it will be rendered moot.

If I were them, I would do the second. That way you'll release the truth (at
that time) and reap the benefits of good PR.

edit: grammar.

~~~
_fat_santa
Like you I doubt they will release the entire thing. I think this is more of a
marketing stunt than an actual drive for more trust. Less tech savvy users
will see this as "transparency" and that will drive more trust.

------
Abishek_Muthian
Will he also accept that TikTok instructed moderators to "suppress posts
created by users deemed too ugly, poor, or disabled for the platform"[1]?

There are already enough forces at play which feeds on inequality, hate,
scarcity etc. making life miserable for the majority of human population,
forces which we may have already lost the battle with; let's not give in to
new ones just for the sake of entertainment.

[1][https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-
us...](https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-users-
discrimination/)

------
ravenstine
This seems like a smokescreen for the actual problem, which isn't the
algorithms(I don't think anyone has said the algorithms are the problem), but
the fact that their app is effectively spyware.

~~~
snemvalts
Literally in the first paragraph

> He says TikTok will also reveal its data flows to regulators, and is calling
> on its rivals to do the same

~~~
ravenstine
It remains to be seen what "data flows" actually means. That term is used
again in the article but it doesn't sound like it explicitly refers to how
TikTok acts like a surveillence tool. Maybe it will, but this is political
theater. If they were run by people who actually cared, they wouldn't have
gotten to this point in the first place.

> TikTok will launch a Transparency and Accountability Center in Los Angeles
> for moderation and data practices that will house all of its data flows and
> code moving forward.

Sounds pretty ambiguous. Like I said, remains to be seen.

These aren't friendly people. Their app not only harvests an assload of your
data but has also been shown to be full of vulnerabilities. I'm not just going
to take their word for it that making everything "open" is going to show that
they've made things right.

If I ran TikTok, I'd pull off a stunt like this to fool technically illiterate
politicians to get them off my back.

~~~
badRNG
It's quite possible TikTok will go down the path of promising the moon
regarding self-regulation and accountability just until the immediate threat
from regulators subsides. This appears to be a trend among companies to stave
off regulation while in the public consciousness, then remaining largely
unaccountable to these toothless accountability committees when the news cycle
inevitably moves on.

------
tqi
Assuming their recommendation system is structured in the same manner as the
feed ranking system at FB [1], I'm assuming this means they will be publishing
their value models (easily interpretable by anyone), and not their probability
models (black boxes, even to them). In other words, we'd be able to see that
they value P(click) 2.5 times more than P(comment), but won't tell you how
they actually predict clicks or comments.

This feels pretty meaningless to me, since knowing that they are ranking
something highly because you are likely to click on it seems fine until you
find out that the reason you are likely to click on it is that it is a viral
hoax.

[1]
[https://blogs.commons.georgetown.edu/cctp-607-spring2019/201...](https://blogs.commons.georgetown.edu/cctp-607-spring2019/2019/05/05/deblackbox-
facebook-news-feed-algorithm-as-a-system-for-attention-manipulation/)

~~~
ngcc_hk
Are we worry about fab or google because of their ranking system? What tik tok
can do is they can change the flip to send info over to their choices. That is
the same as 5G. It is not what it does today but it can do on the next
software or firmware upgrade will. The regime is so different it is a war our
there already. Just you cannot see gunshot in software. But you can see
casualties at least like HONG kong.

------
at-fates-hands
This instantly reminded me of the classic magician misdirection engine. Get
people looking at the fake algo's while the real damaging stuff stays hidden
from view.

~~~
pixxel
CEOs are out in force today.

------
oldgun
This could be the right step towards algorithm transparency. It is critical in
the information age we're in, while Facebook is promoting alt-right
conspiracies, and YouTube is feeding flat-earthers.

Yes. There are more technical issues to resolve. (e.g., How do we verify the
algorithm they present is the actual algorithm they use?) Perhaps third party
audit, APIs for third parties to test the algorithm? We need constructive
criticism than cynicism.

~~~
saagarjha
I see another problem, and that is the one where they dump a model on the
internet somewhere and whenever something goes wrong shrug their shoulders and
say "well, that is what the model gave us…we don't know why; you can see for
yourself how we didn't bias anything".

------
cfors
I wonder what revealing how the algorithm works will impact content creators?
We have entire industries built on poking at Google Search and Instagram to
build exposure.

My prediction is that this levels the playing field, but doesn't solve the
problem of people gaming algorithms to do what they want. The less shrouded
the algorithm, the less snake oil that can be sold which is probably for the
best.

------
m3kw9
To me, drawing a diagram saying how it works isn’t really gonna do it. How can
anyone know you are telling the truth?

~~~
m3kw9
And if they are today, who knows what code changes are going in the pull
request for the next day

------
justinzollars
I was an elected 2008 Hillary Clinton DNC delegate and have ran numerous
campaigns for the Democrats. I also work in tech.

Twitter supports Democrats.

If you study the trending tweets, those that tend to easily trend favor
Democrat issues, ideas and movements. Comments on object news articles promote
Democratic comments over conservative commenters.

Looking deeper, if you study campaign contributions by the staff of Twitter,
its at North Korean levels (95% Democratic Party vs 5% All others) of popular
support. How is this level of political support different than TikTok's
support for the CCP?

How are the design patterns and motivations of TikTok worse than twitter?

~~~
psyklic
Couldn't the userbase be more to blame than Twitter?

Pew Research says that "Twitter users [are] more likely to be Democrats" [1].
Also, 80% of all Tweets mentioning national politics were apparently made by
users who "strongly disapprove" of Trump [2]. That provides a potential
explanation for why comments and trending tweets may "favor Democrat issues"
\-- supposing that even is the case.

I can't seem to find any reputable articles or evidence regarding the
"trending tweets" political breakdown and "campaign contributions by the staff
of Twitter" \-- could we be pointed to some sources?

[1] [https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2019/04/24/sizing-up-
tw...](https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2019/04/24/sizing-up-twitter-
users/) [2] [https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2019/10/23/national-
pol...](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2019/10/23/national-politics-on-
twitter-small-share-of-u-s-adults-produce-majority-of-tweets/)

~~~
justinzollars
Campaign contributions by the staff of Twitter:

[1] [https://www.fec.gov/data/receipts/individual-
contributions/?...](https://www.fec.gov/data/receipts/individual-
contributions/?contributor_employer=twitter&two_year_transaction_period=2020&min_date=01%2F01%2F2019&max_date=12%2F31%2F2020)

~~~
psyklic
Nice find! Based on this data, it does seem that contributions from Twitter
employees are overwhelmingly to Democratic causes.

~~~
justinzollars
It's very fun, You learn who is political at work

------
siculars
Will they tell us how they share data with the CCP?

------
danielscrubs
Maybe Google can learn a thing or two about how to do a recommendation engine
that actually works for YouTube.

------
musicale
Can we trust TikTok to explain in detail how the surveillance part works? Or
to remove it entirely?

------
djflexure
Can anyone enlighten me the main difference between surveillance from China
vs. the NSA exposed by Snowden?

I was under the impression that both countries (if not most countries) collect
data one way or another. It's just that China does it more explicitly.

------
m3kw9
Now can we trust what the diagrams say?

------
nickgrosvenor
All the TikTok people are gonna move to Triller

------
tazedsoul
Revealing how an algorithm works only provides a false sense of
understanding/security. At any time, the algorithm can be modified. Further,
mechanisms will be needed to ensure that the published algorithms are actually
the deployed algorithms. There is such a thing as lying and deception. It’s
naive to believe that billion dollar companies are honest.

~~~
Avicebron
I doubt people believe. It just shows the power imbalance, they lie to the
face and no one can do anything about it.

------
seebetter
I've met Kevin Mayer and have two friends (one a roommate) who worked closely
with him. There are some people who operate in life like an automaton or an
NPC. They're completely ambivalent to principles so everything is relative.
It's easy to justify leaving Disney as their COO to go work for a Chinese
controlled company -- all you have to do is -want- to rationalize it.

------
zozin
We are at war and data collection and social media influence serves as the
ammunition and propaganda. If Bytedance is a truly innocent third party, then
they completely misread the situation when they spent billions of dollars to
expand outside of China and this amounts to a business failing.

The more likely situation is that the CCP is intimately involved in
Bytedance's data collection, what becomes trending, what videos get promoted,
etc. They crossed the proverbial line and now they are punished for it a la
ZTE, Huawei, etc.

You can say goodbye to any Chinese, Russian, etc. app ever taking off in the
"West" in the future. Scrutiny will be ever more stringent as the war
continues.

~~~
Barrin92
The West isn't uniform on this at all. Eastern Europe and up to Greece and
Italy have taken a fairly conciliatory stance on China, in particular the
latter which joined OBOR. Western Europe is more mixed but still I very much
doubt you'll see a TikTok ban in Germany (and neither a Huawei one), and even
in the UK I'm not sure if we'll see a software ban.

I think it's more likely we'll see a differentiated response. Strongest in the
US and Australia maybe Japan (although that's an unclear case as well), and
mixed to not at all in Europe.

On the global stage in general the situation is very different and for that
reason alone China's global expansion has made sense. The few billion dollars
they've invested in the US have given them extremely valuable knowledge.

~~~
eunos
> maybe Japan

I suspect Japan's stance (and Australia) is more about U.S. alignment. Being
in the pacific the situation is more precarious.

------
swagonomixxx
Inb4 the press release says "Machine learning".

Honestly, do we really need to consider TikTok's rebuttals about them
basically being spyware? Sure, they spy for the CCP, but Facebook spies for
the highest bidder. Not sure what's worse at this point to be honest.

And I'm not leaving Facebook, Google, Instagram, or these other services out
of this either. You can tout "AI" and "Machine Learning" all you want, "We
want to give you the best content", etc., it's all BS. Stop it.

Unfortunately, they won't stop it, because most folks simply _do_ _not_ _care_
about TikTok being spyware, including _most_ if not _all_ the people that I
know (and yes, including developers, scientists, semi-high-ranking government
employees, etc.)

------
dcewcrrec
I have a nuclear take, as someone who still uses TikTok: Your data and life
are not special in any way. The government will never be interested in finding
out about you, and if they really wanted to they could do it with ease, and
definitely don't need an app to do it. This is serious in terms of larger
scale surveillance implications, but then that's not really a reason to stop
using TikTok for individual purposes is it? We've seen people become
presidents even after their entire dirty past was revealed. I literally do not
care if a random Chinese employee knows everything about my life.

You're welcome to feel differently, I never force these opinions on other
people. Yet everyone seems to want to tell me I'm crazy. Yeah, I'm the crazy
one, not the guy who thinks the government is interested in him as an
individual rather than a collective for policing and advertising purposes,
which by the way has already been going on for decades.

~~~
dandelany
"I personally have nothing to hide so I don't have a problem with intrusive
surveillance" is not a nuclear or even hot take, in fact it's about the
lukewarmest take I can think of.

~~~
dcewcrrec
You missed all the nuance. I have heard that argument thousands of times and i
disagree with it. What I'm saying here is that long term, wider surveillance
implications are the threat and they're happening in all countries. A random
Chinese data mining app is irrelevant and individuals are still safe to use
it. Probably only matters to people here because of the country of origin, and
not the broader implications, otherwise we'd have this discussion about
Linkedin too.

