
Stanford archaeologist traces the origins of authority to the Andes of Peru - CapitalistCartr
https://news.stanford.edu/2016/04/25/stanford-archaeologist-traces-origins-authority-andes-peru/
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mc32
So this is where authoritarianism arose? And it propagated to other places
how? Or is this mostly conjecture and lots of guesswork?

I like fantasy and imagination as much as the next person but I think drawing
stark conclusions from architecture and "graffiti" should be taken with a
grain of salt. And I guess ancient Egyptians were not authoritarian, or, what
exactly were they?

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tomrod
I don't think the headline aligns with the article, at all.

The article is reporting academic work that postulates the elements that moved
people from bands to authoritarianism, and how this particular Lima, Peru site
highlights this anthropologic theory, rather than identifying a specific
location where, pandemic-like, authority began.

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CapitalistCartr
That is a much nicer interpretation of the article. I didn't get that out of
it, but after reading your comment, and re-reading the article, perhaps the
archaeologist meant that, but the reporter failed to make that clear. I can
certainly believe that.

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drostie
I think the archaeologist almost surely meant this and the reporter completely
screwed up the story.

It would be functionally insane to think that authoritarianism came
fundamentally out of a New World archaeological site that is 3000 years ago.
For example, in order to sustain this belief you would have to believe that
someone from this culture traveled to Africa and then invented time travel, so
that they could go back to the mid-2000s BC and give the idea to the Old-
Kingdom Egyptians.

Just to give some numbers by rectal extraction: I am about 98% sure that a
seasoned academic from Stanford would not be so clumsy with his speech as to
say outright that he thought this had happened; I am only maybe 75% sure that
a given reporter understands a given scientist's research, so given that we
have this report I'd estimate .98 * .25 / (.98 * .25 + .02 * .75) = 94% chance
that the reporter misunderstood the scientist, and only a 6% chance that the
scientist really believes what the reporter was saying. It's possible but I
definitely think it's highly unlikely.

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Mikeb85
Yeah, because authority isn't natural in animals, primates included, and
people never accumulate more than others in basic economies, and never use
power or influence over others...

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bcoates
Projecting human social structures onto animal interactions almost always
results in wrong conclusions about both.

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overcast
Humans are animals.

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duaneb
...for all definitions of animals that don't exclude humans, yes. Humans have
unique characteristics that are central here, like effective use of abstract
language, social stratification, and socially managed resources.

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HillaryBriss
> ... visitors were elite pilgrims, local leaders from far-flung parts of the
> Central Andes. These people were looking for justification to elevate their
> own status and their positions of control in society. After their
> experiences at Chavín, they would use the experiences to more adroitly
> disseminate messages of authority to their own people, the researchers said.

Just like visitors to Burning Man, Coachella and Davos

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mc32
Sort of but not really. I don't think Putin or Xi or Assad gained further
authority by attending any of those. I say sort of because it depends on how
much you are willing to distort the meaning of "authoritarianism".

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HillaryBriss
Those guys have already kind of maxed out their authority. Anyway, they're
more like the high priests in this analogy.

What about the high school senior who's looking to be the next student body
president, or the mid level manager looking to be promoted into the executive
layer?

Build status. Increase your level of authority.

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calibraxis
Interested people should see this team-up by anthropologist David Graeber and
archaeologist David Wengrow:
[https://vimeo.com/145285143](https://vimeo.com/145285143)

They're writing a book on the topic of the origins of inequality. One
interesting thing is how seasonal it was. (After all, for maybe 75k years,
humans could theorize about society as well as any of us.) Fairly recently, we
made temporary structures of hierarchy permanent.

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wfn
Related: has anyone here read "Society Against the State"[1]? I've been
meaning to start reading it but haven't as of yet. It's a set of essays;
supposed to be based on some good anthropological work done by Clastres.

If you have, interested to hear critical etc thoughts on his views.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Clastres#Society_Agains...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Clastres#Society_Against_the_State)

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skapadia
So it was basically a leadership conference in the Andes. Happy hour must have
been a fun time!

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bikamonki
We = apes. Apes social structure = hierarchy. Problem solved. Gimme my PHD
please.

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dschiptsov
And from there it came to China and India?

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norea-armozel
More like, the same tools were implemented everywhere about the same time. For
example, exploiting water sources as part of your tools to control people is a
big part of early empire building efforts in China and Mesopotamia. Without
water you really can't grow much food. And without a regular source of food
you're easier to kill off without risking soldiers. So, it stands to reason
that our civilization went down this path due to the factors of production
regarding agriculture. All it would take is a few strong and organized bands
of thugs to manhandle the rest of the population. Add religion or some weird
myth to back up authenticity of the authority then you got a solid base from
which to expand and influence other areas. It's also why areas like Zomia came
into being as empires clashed then people got tired of the nonsense and fled
quite literally for the foothills of mountain ranges. It seems to me it's odd
the anthropologists didn't notice this pattern in the stories, written
records, and art of each culture examined. It's a hard pattern to miss. I
wonder if we as a civilization have become so indoctrinated in seeing
authority as authentic and desirable that we can't see how often it's propped
up by fear of reprisal and blind faith.

