

Flattr - I want to give you my money - ConceitedCode
http://www.conceitedcode.com/2011/04/i-want-to-give-you-my-money/

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citricsquid
Flattr is "failing" (failing as in, failing to gain substantial traction)
because of lack of users. Notch (of Minecraft fame) used Flattr for a long
time on his blog and he removed it because he made so very little off it, even
though he has a very high traffic blog.

They shot themselves in the foot when they launched the service: a "private
beta". It was the most ridiculous idea _ever_ , here is a service that NEEDS
every user they can get vaguely interested to sign up and use it, and then
when they have users interested (the initial launch "buzz") they say "nope
sorry, it's a private beta, we'll send you an invite some time".

I used Flattr for a while and so little sites used it I just ended my
subscription. I was lucky to get an invite too... they should have been trying
to take everyone who WANTED to use the service, instead they pushed them away.

~~~
StavrosK
In their defense, artificial scarcity can drive buzz for the product a lot, if
done well. Also, a service that's not yet done can't afford to launch to the
public, especially when there's money involved.

Rather than think about launching in beta vs launching publicly, think about
launching in beta vs launching much later. Which is the better choice?

~~~
citricsquid
In the case of Flattr? The latter would have been much more beneficial for
them. I wanted to sign up to give them my money, to improve the value of their
service (the value for content providers is the amount of users) and I had to
"apply" and wait for it. Everything about that is wrong for Flattr.

~~~
StavrosK
So it would be better for flattr if you weren't even aware of their existence,
rather than know about them and be unable to sign up? I don't believe that...

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pedrocr
Flattr could create a bookmarklet to flattr any webpage. Then if enough people
have done so for a given domain they can contact the owner saying "Hey, you
have 5$ to collect at flattr, why not sign-up?". This is basically what paypal
does, allowing you to send money to anyone with an e-mail address even if
they're not yet registered.

~~~
3pt14159
I went back and forth with someone at flattr like 8 times saying this. At the
end of the day that person just broke down and told me that it was a deeply
political issue and the sides were divided on it.

Sigh.

~~~
3pt14159
Oh and I should say that I was coming up with solutions left right and center
for the "problems" associated with it. Each of the problems was more like a
starting point to a great solution than a fundamental problem. (Eg. "what if
1m sites have less than 2 cents even after months?" "Auto lottery that shit"
or "what if we can't contact the person?" "Same solution to someone signing up
for flattr and getting hit by a bus. You can never rely on getting in touch
with a person set reasonable limits and state them publically" etc, etc, etc)

~~~
mnutt
There might be legal issues with collecting money on another entity's behalf
(while saying you're collecting it for them) without their consent. I'm not a
lawyer and it's probably not a show-stopper, but it might involve more hoops
to jump through.

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ugh
Flattr is not rare on German sites and those who use it seem to be doing
reasonably well if they are fairly well known.

Tim Pritlove, for example, (a podcaster) is making close to 2.000€ per month
(chart and German blogpost: <http://tim.geekheim.de/2011/04/14/ein-jahr-
flattr/>).

~~~
pavel_lishin
The european/american thousands separator always manages to confuse me for a
second: "Two Euros a month? Who gives a crap?"

~~~
romland
I hear a lot of people saying that. Interesting, however, is that I, as
European, don't even think twice about it[1]. My brain must be wired to look
at the context primarily.

Why that is, I can only take a stab at: I guess we see a lot more from you
guys on the other side of the pond than you see from us. :)

[1] Comma overload -- my English teacher would kill me.

~~~
TillE
I think the difference is that most Americans simply aren't exposed to various
ways of writing dates, times, currencies, numbers, etc. on a regular basis.

Even within Germany, there's no consensus about where to put the Euro sign
(before or after). Americans don't write times like 20:00 and say "eight"
aloud. After several years in Europe, I'm fairly adept at accepting all
inputs.

~~~
cpeterso
Your comment inspired this thought: Imagine a Firefox extension or
Greasemonkey script that localizes web pages: converts dates, times,
currencies, separators to the user's preference. :)

Google Chrome will translate web page languages, which is a much more
difficult problem.

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soult
Here are two big reasons why not everyone has a Flattr button on ther website
yet:

\- To put the button on your website you have to also be a paying Flattr user
(pay a minimum of €2/month).

\- You are forced to pay a hefty 10% cut of everything you earn to Flattr.
Also, you further have to pay all PayPal fees (those are not included in the
10% Flattr cut). And possibly taxes depending on where you live.

~~~
carrotsalad
TipTheWeb ( <http://tiptheweb.org/> ) is a new (non-profit!) service that just
came out of private beta a few months ago- it has no fees for tippers or
publishers, and passes 100% of claimed tips to web publishers via monthly
awards. And TipTheWeb doesn’t require a subscription or any kind of ongoing
commitment. Both flattr and Readability take big cuts of the money before it
gets to publishers. In addition to working with popular publishing platforms
and independent websites, TipTheWeb allows multi-contributor sites, like
multi-author blogs, to add simple metadata to their pages so that tips can go
directly to the authors of the content being tipped.

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donofrip
I don't completely think that this is an execution issue. Do we really think
there is a large market out there for "flattr-ing" blogs and other sites?

I don't know how many people would pay for/donate to something they're getting
for free.

Something about not buying a cow when you're getting milk for free comes to
mind...

~~~
cabalamat
Flattr would work better if it did more stuff. For example, if there was an
API allowing any Flattr user to pay an amount into any other Flattr user's
account. This would probably involve issues with banking regulations, however.

~~~
cabalamat
Can someone explain why this was downvoted? It seems a reasonable comment to
me.

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usaar333
I love how immediately following:

"It is an incredibly simple process and there is no downside."

is:

"The minimum amount of money needed to continue use of Flattr is €2 (about $3)
each month"

~~~
zachbeane
Another fun feature, from the FAQ:

    
    
        Can I disable/inactivate my account?
        - No. As long as there's money in your means 
        account, these will be used each month. When they 
        run out your account will be deactived until 
        you add more funds.
    

I signed up thinking Flattr was a way for people to pay me who hate paypal. It
turns out it's not anything like that, at all. But there's no way to
immediately get off Flattr and close my account, and each month they've been
emailing me garbage I don't want.

~~~
cabalamat
> I signed up thinking Flattr was a way for people to pay me who hate paypal.

Maybe Flattr should do that as well. For example they could extend the service
so that you could put a button on your website which when someone presses it,
it pays a fixed amount from their website to yours, which could be used as an
easy-to-use micropayment scheme allowing people to pay for content.

~~~
zachbeane
Yes, that would be nice, instead of the current scheme, where you sign up,
have to put money down, and then get reminded monthly that you should go
spread that money around. I signed up to get paid, not pay.

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westiseast
I must admit I don't 'get' flattr - why would you ever signup if you weren't
also trying to get paid? Surely Flattr's biggest problem is that they don't
have users who want to freely donate, just users who want to get paid. It's a
crap pyramid scheme. Or like a trade show, when the only people there are all
salesmen, with no customers.

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techiferous
Site owners have to sign up for the service before participating. That barrier
should be removed.

For example, you should be able to flattr _any_ URL, not just web sites that
have opted in. Here's how it would work: if you see a site that you wish to
give money to, you would flattr the URL with a _promise_ of money, but not
real money. You would do this on flattr.com. The owner of the URL will go to
flattr.com and see that they have $89.13 in "flattry" waiting for them if they
sign up. At that point, the site owner has incentive to sign up and collect
the money. Once the site owner has signed up, the users are notified that they
need to pay (or payment is taken automatically).

This way, users don't have to wait for a site to add the flattr button and
site owners will have much more incentive to sign up once they see the money
waiting for them.

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StavrosK
I will second this, I have a flattr account and will rather certainly flattr
your site if I like it.

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eferraiuolo
TipTheWeb handles this chicken-egg problem: <http://tiptheweb.org/>

Tips identify content just by URL de-coupling content attribution from the
authors claiming their tips. This also us to work for tipping content on
YouTube, Flickr, and GitHub, etc. without requiring the site to be directly
integrated with TipTheWeb.

~~~
pavel_lishin
> This also us to work for tipping content on YouTube, Flickr, and GitHub,
> etc. without requiring the site to be directly integrated with TipTheWeb.

What happens if I tip someone whose video, photo, or code gets taken down?

~~~
eferraiuolo
Content attribution happens at the time the Tip is made, so it will be there
even if the content is taken down after a user makes a Tip for it.

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flattr_intern
Handling money requires a stable and trusted service which is why it would
have been a bad idea not having a closed beta to test it out properly before
released. The problem with handling money is that there is a lot of legal
issues around it.

@cabalamat there is already an API that community has used to create a lot of
cool stuff with: <https://flattr.com/support/plugins> Hoping to see many more
though so if you have good ideas feel free to hack away:) Donating specific
sums can already be done to other Flattr users via their profile page.

We're actively working on getting Flattr more accessible and available to
"flattr everything". Big changes happening in a few days!
<http://blog.flattr.net/2011/04/flattr-reloads-the-cannons/>

/josef (@flattr_intern)

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markkat
HN could allow us to put a flattr link in our submissions. I've done it for my
site, crickets so far...

There is a similar service for Bitcoin that I am thinking about adding. That
might be more interesting.

~~~
Tiomaidh
To flattr the OP or HN? If it's the first one, that could be deeply
controversial (see also: the squawk on Metafilter about the same thing).

~~~
markkat
I do it for the submitter on my site. I understand why some might think it is
controversial, however. Actually, it might be best to keep it to comments
only. -That's user created content. I'm going to consider that for my site.
Thanks.

~~~
joeyespo
Not just controversial. Getting Flattr'd for things you didn't create can get
you banned (1). Comments would be ok though.

[1] <http://flattr.com/support/faq>

~~~
markkat
Well that decides that then. :)

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rick888
I will use Flattr when there are no service fees. After all, the
developers/owners, who also just happen to run the pirate bay, feel that
everything should be free and "shared, just like when we were children".

Why do they need to charge 10% service fees if they want a "free" society?

~~~
Lost_BiomedE
It seems like they should just allow you to flattr flattr. They believe in
their model, right?

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jacques_chester
I think that the Contenture/Readability model is probably the most likely to
succeed. I'm biased, of course, having dreamt up the same basic model circa
2008.

When I learned about Kachingle (similar model with an opt-in step), I pretty
much threw a wobbly and gave up on the idea. But I've taken from Facebook the
idea that first to market doesn't always win, even if they have what seems
like insurmountable network value. The race is not always to the swift ...

In any case, I've turned some of my design work into the basis of an honours
project, so if all else fails I'll have an upgraded degree and something cool
to talk about in interviews.

~~~
rudasn
That's cool. My thesis was on a project very similar to flattr - voluntary
payments (not donations). This was in 2006/07, a few months before flattr
opened for beta users, and was really existed to see it happen.

It didn't come up during an interview though :|

~~~
jacques_chester
> voluntary payments (not donations)

What's the difference?

> It didn't come up during an interview though :|

They keep warning me this will be the case. Lies. Lies and slander!

~~~
rudasn
The way I see it:

You donate blood and you donate to a charity. You pay for music and you pay
for books. When you donate you don't expect to get something back in return.
When you pay you expect something back.

Even though no one is forcing you to give in either case the mental model is a
quite different. For example, as a musician I want people to pay me because
they enjoy my music not because they feel that I need the money. As a listener
I will pay someone if I enjoy their music - I don't really care about the
financial status of the musician.

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boboblong
bitcoin will make this irrelevant...

