

Ask HN: I have a day job, one kid and one on the way, how can I get things done? - program247365

I'm 29 and I want to do more freelancing, and get traction on side projects, anyone have any suggestions on how to do this? Don't sleep?
======
thaumaturgy
As a former kid who grew up with a dad whose first and greatest love was
antique cars, I would first recommend against taking up a time-consuming hobby
while having a full time job and raising kids. You have the opportunity to be
a tremendous influence on a young person's life; Richard Feynman described
this very eloquently: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=695Flhmjmg4>. Feynman
would not have become Feynman without all the time he and his father spent
together.

If you try to give up sleep, it will make you less alert around your kids.
Aside from potentially exacerbating a dangerous situation should one occur, it
will also make you less responsive to them, less playful, and less patient.
They will eventually learn to just leave you alone -- even if that's not what
you intend -- and that will weaken your bond with them and make them less
communicative and more rebellious later on.

I hope this isn't coming across as a lecture or a moral crusade. I'm not
implying anything about how you are as a father. Just that, if you have a full
time job and two kids, then you really don't have the time left to spend on
personal projects or freelancing without sacrificing some of your relationship
with your kids. The time you spend on freelancing or personal projects could
instead be spent reading to them, playing with them, doing cool science-y
things with them, and those things are all really important.

If someone had discussed this with my father while I was still young, I might
still have something to say to the man.

~~~
program247365
I appreciate your response very much.

I enjoyed that video a lot as well. Thank you for your thoughts, I don't think
you came across as didactic, as you might have feared, just trying to show me
what's really important, and I do take that to heart.

I lost my father at a very young age, and I always told myself that I would be
there for my kids, and I'm going to stick to that, no matter what. I love my
boy, and my soon-to-be-here boy or girl, and I truly want the best for them.

I realize that, after reading all the responses, I probably framed the
question poorly. Here's some better context, I hope:

I work full-time during the day, my wife watches the boy during the day, and
then when I get home, we have ~30 minutes together, and then she goes to work
till about 11pm (3 - 5 days/week depending on her schedule), as I take care of
our son in the evening, so I focus on that, until he goes to sleep between
8:30 - 9:30pm. Money is tight for us, and I'm bring to get additional
freelance work to supplement our income to better make ends meet, and
hopefully allow my wife to tapper off of work (as she gets further in her
pregnancy).

All in all, trying to work when he's asleep in the evening, or in the morning
is tough, as it's tiring. :) But perhaps I just need to suck it up. :)

~~~
thaumaturgy
I'm sorry, I shouldn't've assumed you were wanting to work on personal
projects. Wanting to be a little more financially secure makes a lot more
sense.

There's a limited amount of sucking-it-up that you can do. Take care of
yourself. :-)

------
jrussbowman
I'm in a similar boat. I'm a bit older, and my kids are too. One turns 5 in
September and the other 2 next month.

Since the 5 year old has been born I've started several projects, contributed
to a few open source projects and not made a lot of money.

My whole goal for side projects was based on wanting to provide more for my
family. I thought if I could bring in more money we could move to a better
home and I could provide nicer things for them. Funny how after having a kids
material possessions of your own mean so little but you want the world from
them.

Here's what I would do if I could do it all over again. I wouldn't have side
projects, I'd have hobbies. I'd not focus so much on the hobbies that it
impacted the relationship with my children. I'd worry less about making money
right now, and focus more on what my family as a whole needs right now.

It's been a slow learning experience for me. Where I'm at now is I still poke
around and try to learn. It really is a hobby for me. I like programming and
my day job doesn't give me as much opportunity for creative programming as I'd
like. I'm a devops sysadmin. I get to play with super expensive engineering
projects like Citrix and 6 figure CMS systems. I get to do lots of scripts,
implementing chef and nagios. However, I like to build things, so that's what
I do as a hobby now.

I've dropped all focus from making money on my projects. With me not focusing
on money I can drop a project for weeks at a time to focus on other things.
Remodeling a bathroom or dealing with the extra running around for my
daughters first ballet recital.

I also stopped focusing on having enough money to try and get the family to
where I want it to be as far as new home right this second. Part of that
mindset is why I insisted my wife work after the second baby was born. She
didn't work for the first 2 years our 5 year old was born. She was miserable.
She hated working and not having that time with the baby, and it was obvious
the baby didn't like daycare or being with grammy most the day either. Nothing
can replace mommy.

In January my wife quit her job. She got an offer for a job making a lot more
money, she turned it down. The house is in much better shape. From cleanliness
to just over all mood of everyone in the household. I'm all in on my day job
100% and I've been much more productive there because I've only focused on my
family and the job. As such, I've gotten decent raises and a promotion in the
past few years.

Lots of unexpected expenses have come up. I've learned that we don't need to
buy a lot, and instead of focused on knocking out doubt and putting extra
money into the house so we can slowly prep it to sell while waiting for real
estate value to increase. My house depreciated a lot, however I live near DC
so we are seeing a recovery.

The past few months I've completely stopped focusing on the idea of making
money from my projects. It's been extremely hard. I often get the bug that if
I just finish the one app I can bring in more money. Something always
distracts me, that something usually being something I need to do for the
family. I've learned to accept that having that distraction it's what's better
for me in my life and for the lives of my kids.

One thing I've also realized is that I'm going to have a ton of time later to
work on side projects. The level of independence my older child shows compared
to the baby is remarkable. Taking the time to focus on the job that provides a
regular paycheck while spending the rest of my time being Dad and Husband
rather than Entrepreneur is what I believe is best for everyone now.

I've also started focusing on myself. My myself I mean my health. I waited
until I was in my 30's to have kids. I want to meet my grandkids. I've been
eating healthier, getting some exercise and making sure I get enough sleep.

When I'm an old man I expect to measure whether I'm a success or not to be the
children I raised and not any company I've formed. Maybe I can give my kids
the headstart that they can create something amazing before they're ready to
settle down and raise a family themselves.

Just to be clear, I haven't given up on the side projects. I've just
reclassified them. I've still got 2 websites up that work, and I continue to
work on them. I'm learning 2 new languages this year. Ruby at work for chef
and Go to rewrite one of my python/zeromq apps in to see if it's easier to
maintain. Maybe when the kids are older I'll have time to pursue one of my
sites as a real business. Heck, I'll probably still make a few stabs at it
before they're older. Right now as I write this, I hope I fail for a few more
years. It's awesome watching how many new things my kids can learn in a week.
It's great being the one to teach them a few of them.

~~~
jrussbowman
Oh, as johngalt said don't neglect your spouse. My wife and I had our first
real night out in months last week. It's amazing when you get to go out and be
husband and wife instead of mom and dad.

~~~
program247365
Noted. Me and the wife-y have a date night coming up. :)

Grandma gets to watch the boy, and spend some quality time with him, while
Mommy and Daddy get some one-on-one time.

I love my wife very much, she's great, and a great mother. I try to show her I
appreciate her as often as I can.

------
ssylee
First take some time off to perform a time audit. Really take a look at what
you're spending time on, and reducing the amount of time consumption that
keeps you from freelancing before you do so. Not sleeping is not a sustainable
nor a scalable option.

~~~
program247365
Thanks. Yeah, I'm finally turning the corner, and actually doing work, rather
than surfing the web, or caving and watching TV or something unproductive.

Yeah I attempted that many months ago. My body told me a definitive, "NO." I
listened. :)

~~~
ssylee
It's not just surfing the web, caving and watching TV. Doing household chores,
cooking, laundry, and completing other errands aren't necessarily productive
either. Also the billing, expense tracking, and bank reconciliation. You may
not be able to eliminate them completely. My original message was find a way
to automate and delegate those responsibilities so that you can focus on the
highly-productive tasks.

------
kahfei
I don't really have an answer on the question, I am just another person
starting out on freelance and struggling at the similar situation. I have a
kid and a fulltime job as well. So I guess I am on the similar situation as
yours. But I am already 37 ;-)

I tried not to sacrifice my time with kid and wife so I tried to wake up
earlier at 4-5 a.m., spend 2-3 hours to work on things, then go to my fulltime
work. I find this time of the day work better for me than if I stay up late to
the night. You are alone, the air is fresh, and you are like having the whole
world :-).

It is not easy, sometime I just couldn't wake up that early after the alarm
went off. And then feeling guilty the whole day for not able to achieve the
thing I plan to do. Sometime the alarm wake up my wife instead of me, and she
couldn't fall asleep again after that, that is also a big problem.

I think focus, persistent and discipline is important. When we don't have the
luxury of spending the whole day on the thing we need to work on, break a big
task to smaller chunk that we can complete in shorter amount of time. Focus on
small steps instead of climbing the big mountain.

I post about my story here as well <http://www.kahfei.com/?p=242>. A long post
though.

~~~
program247365
> I find this time of the day work better for me than if I stay up late to the
> night. You are alone, the air is fresh, and you are like having the whole
> world :-)

I love that feeling, and may find myself trying that out again, seems like
several people have echoed the same timeframe.

Great post! Thanks so much for sharing.

> Is that what I really want? Admit defeat without even try hard enough? Then
> what is the lesson I am teaching my son here? How am I supposed to tell him
> that you can be all that you want to be as long as you work hard enough?
> What kind of example I am setting for him?

That is exactly my worst fear. I'm talented, and I know I can succeed, and I
know I can be a good father while doing it. That's what I'm going to strive
for. Thanks so much for the inspiration!

~~~
kahfei
Fulfilling your talents and becoming a good father (while also a good husband
and son), there are lot to juggle, but no one say they must be mutually
exclusive. So Good luck :-)

------
gallerytungsten
By "get traction on side projects" I'll go with the assumption that you mean
"enough to quit your day job." (If that's not correct, then this advice may
not apply).

Simple answer: save six to twelve months of living expenses from your day job
so you can quit. Then you'll have plenty of time to make traction happen with
a side project; and turn it into something real. Cut expenses as much as
possible so you can build up your savings to the required level.

More complex answer. Compartmentalize your day job into the hours you put in
there. Look at all other time as side project or freelance time. Get rid of
all debt, if you have any. Getting out of debt is one of those liberating
things that will make quitting your day job much easier. This second option is
more time-consuming. You might find yourself taking on more responsibilities
that you can't easily escape. Try to find a way to quit your day job sooner,
rather than later; otherwise you may never quit.

~~~
program247365
Part of me agrees with your assumption, that, yes, that is the ultimate goal
for me…and perhaps it is.

I'm taking this advice right now, as far as the debt reduction. But need to
really get a consistent freelance gig going to get that kind of savings.
Honestly, we've been cutting costs everywhere and it really does help in the
long run.

I'm ok with waiting a few years for this to happen, and that's probably the
more likely reality for me.

Thanks!

------
kreek
I can say from experience that staying up late works for a while, but you'll
eventually hit a wall and hate life. Now, if I have a side gig, I go to sleep
almost as soon as my son is in bed (I say almost because you need to have some
non-parent time). Then I wake up early, like 4am early. The benefit is you're
fresh and hopefully have 2-3 hours before your oldest wakes up.

Of course when the baby arrives you can forget side gigs for about three
months because it'll be madness. However it's only three months or so of
crazyness, and they're only that small once so enjoy it! :)

~~~
program247365
Yup, I also tried that for a while.

> Then I wake up early, like 4am early. The benefit is you're fresh and
> hopefully have 2-3 hours before your oldest wakes up.

I may try 5am. Once upon a time, I'd wake up early and go running, and such.
Now maybe I can get back into the habit, and get some freelancing done.

Yes. I realize this, and as far as I can tell, there is no way around this,
unless you have a stay-in nanny, which is probably reserved for the reality TV
stars. :) I will not fall into the trap of thinking, "yeah, I'll still be able
to get side work done.", I know this go-around that's not possible, and the
kids are only this tiny once. :)

Thanks! I will enjoy it. :)

------
tt
As a father with 2 fairly young children, I can tell you from my experience
that it will be extremely difficult. You will become very aware of your
limited time availability, which allows you to be much more productive during
the time that you do have.

In the end, there's only so many hours during the day. You have to limit what
you can work on and carefully pick what the top priorities are. Focus on those
intensely. Good luck!

~~~
program247365
Thanks so much!

------
RollAHardSix
Not sleeping will be a very bad idea.

Just keep working and saving money; in two-three years your child will be
independent enough for you to have some extra time. Your side-projects will
still be there in 3 years; your child will only have one shot at the next few
years and those early development years are -crucial-. Plus if you continue
working at your job rather than freelancing you'll have that much more capital
for a solid base when you jump into the big ocean of freelancing.

You should also discuss this with your wife. It will require lifestyle changes
and lifestyle changes are hard on a marriage. This is a good place to start
for ideas; maybe introduce her and let her do her own reading.

<http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/>

There are of course many other frugal and financial fitness blogs out on the
internet to go along with this.

Oh, and good luck and I hope your little one has a prosperous and productive
life.

~~~
program247365
Thanks so much!

------
johngalt
Stop working on side projects and freelancing.

Focus on the three things you are handling right now (don't forget your
spouse). Don't learn the hard way about overextending yourself. Handle what's
in front of you first. Make yourself acknowledge that now is not a good time
for side projects and freelancing. A day job and two young children _should_
take all your time.

New babies trigger a 'nesting' overdrive mode in parents. On top that you're
facing turning 30. Take a step back and tell yourself that you are a good
parent and provider. A good job and a healthy family is plenty to ask for.

Another good coping method is a notebook. Write down all the ideas and side
projects just to get them out of your head. A good time for this is 30min
before bed. It helps you stop the spinning gears and get to sleep.

~~~
program247365
Thank you. I'll keep this in mind, but I probably need one good freelancing
gig for now.

> On top that you're facing turning 30. Take a step back and tell yourself
> that you are a good parent and provider. A good job and a healthy family is
> plenty to ask for.

Great advice.

I definitely have a Moleskine "idea book" (or three), and constantly fill
them, as I have "idea-rrhea". :)

------
program247365
_UPDATE:_

Wow, thanks everyone! Some great advice.

I wasn't expecting such a solid response, and was almost afraid I was going to
get bombarded by early twenty-somethings working at startups asking why I was
dirtying their site, with my silly old-man fodder. :)

Great to hear other hacker-fathers in the same position as I am. All in all,
I'm taking the advice of trying to go to bed when the boy does, and get up
early to get work done in the morning before the rest of the house gets up.
While trying to stay sane at my regular job, and making sure I exercise, and
get enough sleep to make it all work, and discuss with my spouse what I'm
doing, and make sure we're still all good in the hood, with our relationship,
and doing what's best for our young family.

------
courage
You really want to start off with a baseline of good sleep, eating and fitness
habits. If you are healthy you'll have a lot more energy to get things done.

After that it's like everyone tells you--choose the most important things to
do with your time. My advice would be to make really sure the goals you are
choosing match with what you're internally motivated to do.

It may be that your spouse and children (and maybe even your day job) are more
important to you than side projects. If that's the case, and those things eat
100% of your time, be happy that you're doing what's most important, and stop
wasting energy fretting about the endless list of things you would do if you
had no time constraints.

~~~
program247365
Good advice.

I've recently started running again. Can you believe I did a half-marathon in
high school? God that was a long time ago, but I want to get back there,
fitness-wise, and I'm trying to commit to this. I definitely feel better when
I exercise. I did today, and I just think clearer, you know?

For now, seems like the side projects are going to the back-burner, and the
real concern is to just get a consistent freelance gig, to make ends meet
better. I love my family, and I'm trying to get advice on making this all
work. Thanks for your feedback.

------
DirtyAndy
You can be an entrepreneur at any point, you can only be a father to these
young children once. Relax and enjoy your children, especially whilst they are
very young. My kids are 6 & 8 and with school, sport, general tiredness that
they get, I now have the time to do side projects and the like. I tried when
they were younger but at the cost of some quality time with them - and with my
wife.

If you really do have to do something then I found getting up at 5 and having
2 hours before the rest of the house was too awake (my kids sleep in) worked
pretty well, but you have to remember to go to bed at a decent time.

~~~
program247365
Thanks for the advice.

I may have to try the "early bird" thing. That may end up what happens for
now, before numero two is born. :)

------
joeld42
I actually started getting more done once my daughter was born (well, not at
first, after about 8 months or so).

I only had an hour or two when she was asleep in the mornings or evenings when
I wasn't, but I was really focused and productive during that time because I
knew that was all the project time I would get.

And I totally agree with the other posters. Sleep is super important, you want
the time you do have with them to be quality time not grumpy time.

~~~
program247365
Awesome.

Yeah, I've fallen into the trap many months ago, thinking I could go with less
sleep. Doesn't work. Zombie daddy is not a good thing for anyone. Now, I make
sure I get my rest.

------
wj
I've got a five month old and I'm still learning how to do this. I also cook
dinner most nights. I'm lucky if I get an hour on my side project a day.

Time when the spouse takes the child shopping with her is golden.

I agree with the other commenters that persistance is good (progress is going
to be much slower than before kids) and that reducing the amount of time you
spend on other things will help. Less TV, more carry out, etc.

------
franze
step 1) stop watching TV completely (get rid of the TV completely from your
household, your life)

only after you completed step 1)

    
    
      step 2) prioritize your projects
      step 3) complete(!!!) the first one
      step 4) GO TO step 2)
    

i was twenty when my first son was born, 30 when my second son was born. the
first two years after the births were the most productive in my life. it's not
about what you can,should,ought-to,... do, but what you do (and what you
finish).

update: i'm kinda shocked at a lot of comments here. stop your "hobby"
projects (they are not a hobby, they are an opportunity) and freelancing...
invest more time in your kids. i mean, come on, life (including business life)
is not over when you have kids, it's just the beginning. you just need to
prioritize better. (p.s.: this is written from bolivia, where i'm currently
staying, after 6 month of south america traveling (with family), while running
a successful consulting business and working and coding on various side
projects. it's all about prioritization.

~~~
thedillio
I totally agree. I too am shocked to see so many "quit your side projects"
comments. The trick is prioritization, like the old saying goes: "anyone with
more than 3 priorities has no priorities." I have a 6 month old that I am very
involved with.

The first few months was difficult by default due to the chaos. But now that
my wife and I are in a routine (and he is sleeping through the night), I am
getting a lot done. Perhaps not as much "work" as before but what it has
allowed me to do is get rid of everything that doesn't really matter and focus
only on the things that do (ie, it makes me happy, it makes me money, self
improvement, etc).

Mornings I typically get up with him and spend an hour or so playing with him,
feeding him, etc. My wife looks after him during the day. When I get home from
work I devote my entire attention to him and my wife. I take care of bath
time. We split the feeding time before bed. Sometimes we spend time all
together then, other times we each do the tasks at hand while the other feeds.
After he is in bed we either spend time together and then work, or vice versa.
A couple nights a week it is date time where we watch our favorite shows
together or whatever and there is no work.

Am I busy? Hell yeah. But I make an effort to be effective with my time. I use
the web app Rescue Time to track my productivity. It at least quantifies my
time at the computer.

Also, As far as freelancing, before I cut it out altogether, I simply raised
my rates. This gave me less freelance jobs but allowed me to earn more per
hour. Wasnt making quite as much however I was a whole lot happier.

My point is that I agree that you need to put your family first, but feel you
can live your dreams AND be a good parent if you simply remove everything that
is not important.

------
bcl
Don't sacrifice time with your children to work on side projects. Do what you
can before they wake up and after they are in bed.

~~~
program247365
Yup. Definitely doing this now. There's no way to do things while they're
awake. Impossible. They're too cute.

------
maslam
Have an honest discussion with your spouse. She will guide you and help you in
ways you can't imagine right now.

~~~
program247365
Yeah, we've talked about this a lot. We're on the same page with the direction
I'm going. At least one solid freelance gig, for the time being to help better
make ends meet.

------
gscott
Go to bed at the same time your kids do and then wake up earlier to them. That
is the time where you can get something done but not cause your family to miss
on you because your full attention is importaint to the health of your
families relationships.

~~~
program247365
Yes. This seems to be a repeating theme through the comments. I'm definitely
going to give this a try. :)

------
johnrob
Find and hire a baby sitter. Use the newly created free time for your
projects. If you can't afford a regular baby sitter, then your project is
figuring out how to get the money for it.

