
Old Paris Is No More - collapse
https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/old-paris-no-more/
======
zwaps
One difference between Haussmann and others is that his buildings turned out
to create one of the most beautiful cities in the world.

In contrast, 20's century urbanism projects - even on a smaller scale - are
almost always considered a failure ex post. In Paris itself, walk yourself
through the Les Olympiades area, from Tolbiac down to Porte d'Italie, if you
like an impressive testament to that fact. Some other favorites in Europe to
google are "Berlin Marzahn" and "Hannover Ihme Zentrum". There are of course
many more.

I wonder if there are contemporary developments that will, some day, be
considered truly beautiful.

~~~
ticktacktock2
This is unrelated to the topic, but your comment is a good occasion to learn
more about what seems to me to be weird (grammatical) article usages by
English speakers.

Why did you call it _Les_ Olympiades, and not Olympiades (no article) or _the_
Olympiades (article in English), or _les_ Olympiades (no capitalization of the
article) ?

For Porte d'Italie, you did not add any article, i.e. Porte d'Italie and not
_La_ Porte d'Italie. Why the difference?

~~~
zwaps
Honestly? Because I am not French and I just wrote very thoughtlessly. Sorry,
no further reasoning behind it.

~~~
ticktacktock2
I see. Still, this is quite common. For instance the English Wikipedia article
[0] use the "random French capitalized article" ("Though the proportions are
more modest, _Les_ Olympiades are designed similarly to the esplanade of _La_
Défense.", emphasis mine) but not the French Wikipedia 0article [1], which
uses "normal" (to me) grammatical articles.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Olympiades](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Olympiades)

[1]
[https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympiades_(quartier_parisien)](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympiades_\(quartier_parisien\))

~~~
kristianc
The French article repeatedly refers to it as _Les_ Olympiades.

~~~
ticktacktock2
The article is capitalized only when it is the beginning of a sentence, or for
the elementary school of the same name. The article behaves "normally" (eg
switches to aux Olympiades when needed) while the English article stick to Les
Olympiades with a capitalized "Les".

Interestingly, both articles first words are "Les Olympiades", but:

* "Les" is in bold in the English one, as if it was part of the name, while only "Olympiades" is in bold in French

* The French article says "the Olympiades are" while the English one say "the Olympiades is".

~~~
zwaps
Ah now I get what you are saying. Okay so remember this was all subconcious,
but I think I added the articles since "Les Olympiades" seems like a whole
name. Just "Olympiades" makes less sense since that could have different
meanings, like people perhaps. In that sense, I considered "Les" as part of
the name. Therefore, it is capitalized.

Porte d'Italy on the other hand is clear, there's only one interpretation, and
therefore the article is not part of the name.

I am not saying this is right, just my brain doing brain things. I apologize
if correctness is important for you, I will try to be more precise going
foward.

~~~
grumpydba
Just like you would say 'les miserables' or 'le big mac'

------
cm2187
Contrary to what the article says, Haussmann isn’t really a controversial
figure in France and much of what makes Paris one of the most beautiful and
visited cities in the world is thanks to the architecture he imposed,
something that few, if any, modern urbanist can claim.

~~~
hrktb
Would it be self-fulfilling if we disagreed on him being controversial ?

Perhaps an aspect of it Parisian's Paris and tourist's Paris is fundamentally
different, and the current leadership is more or less trying to undo a lot of
what Haussman stood for to make Paris friendlier to live for Parisians. Whole
blocks are closed cars to bring back shops and 'village' like environment.

Modern residential neighbourhoods are rebuilt with lacy paths, cul de sacs,
pedestrian/car cohabitation, closer concentration of housing.

A lot of what Haussmann did was beneficial from a health perspective, but we
know we can solve these issues in other ways, an I don't think most planners
would do it the way Haussmann did if they had the choice to go back in time.

~~~
harperlee
When thinking in historical times you should put yourself in that moment of
time. Of course if someone travels back in time with current knowledge will do
things in different ways than Haussmann - they know whats going to happen,
they know about things Haussmann didn’t.

~~~
hrktb
It's not just historic fantasy though, there was opposition to his way, but
they didn't have the political clout nor could oppose centering the cities
around cars.

It's not just Haussmann either, most countries had that tension around letting
cars dominate or not (there was an excellent 99pi episode about these tensions
[0]), it just happened that one side massively won benefiting from economics,
politics and power distribution.

[0] [https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-76-the-
modern...](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-76-the-modern-
moloch/)

~~~
irishsultan
I think you need better evidence for this tension than an episode that's
talking about a different country half a century later (the time difference is
especially important, because the changes to Paris took place at a time when
cars were still being invented, e.g.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benz_Patent-
Motorwagen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benz_Patent-Motorwagen) "widely
regarded as the world's first production automobile" was patented in 1885, 15
years after the initial development according to Haussmans plans stopped)

~~~
hrktb
The opposition was not against the car at that time, but against the military
purpose ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges-
Eugène_Haussmann#The_d...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges-
Eugène_Haussmann#The_debate_about_the_military_function_of_Haussmann's_boulevards)),
the crushing of the lower layers of society, who had to move away from the
renovated areas, and more than anything the amount of money thrown into it
that didn't seem to be worth it.

Haussmann succeeded mostly because of the emperor's constant backup and the
basically no limit budget he got from him. Once these backings were gone he
was out of the game.

He wasn't otherwise very well supported by the people. I kinda like this
quote:

> In his memoires, Haussmann had this comment on his dismissal: "In the eyes
> of the Parisians, who like routine in things but are changeable when it
> comes to people, I committed two great wrongs; over the course of seventeen
> years I disturbed their daily habits by turning Paris upside down, and they
> had to look at the same face of the Prefect in the Hotel de Ville. These
> were two unforgivable complaints."[17]

------
Renaud
Those interested in old photographs documenting Paris should have a look at
the work of Eugène Atget.

He basically documented the streets, shops, crafts, people of Paris at the end
of the XIXth century, before most of the old and derelict housing were
demolished and replaced with the "modern" ones we see today.

[https://www.moma.org/artists/229#works](https://www.moma.org/artists/229#works)

------
acjohnson55
I can't recommend highly enough the Revolutions Podcast, which has seasons
devoted to the French Revolution, the 1848 Revolutions, and the Paris Commune.
Paris was ground zero of the extremely tumultuous sociopolitical transition
from feudalism to republican nation-state, which eventually became the norm
for most of the globe.

------
tom_mellior
> There was no property-owning democracy. Everyone was dependent on the will
> of the landowners and the owners of the houses in Paris. In that particular
> context, he really took on the most powerful social group at that time,
> trying to offer a solution to urban problems

As someone who has had to rent in the horrible Paris market, I don't see how
everyone being "dependent on the will of the landowners and the owners of the
houses in Paris" has changed.

~~~
mijamo
Where else have you rented? Paris is a bit expensive but apart from that the
rental market works fine. I wouldn't say the same of Stockholm, Dublin or San
Francisco

~~~
tom_mellior
> Where else have you rented?

I didn't come here for a who-is-more-cosmopolitan dick-waving contest. But if
you did, do feel free to entertain us with your personal horror stories from
Stockholm, Dublin, and San Francisco.

> Paris is a bit expensive but apart from that the rental market works fine.

Landlords require you to bring a CV and a work contract and proof of income,
which must be 3x the rent, otherwise you must bring documentation from a
guarantor who does have that much and who is resident in France. You must also
bring receipts proving that you paid your rent on time the last three months.
(Sure, this is not a big deal per se, except that other countries don't even
have this kind of receipt, or you might be coming from some arrangement where
you did not (officially) pay rent.) Don't you also have to bring a valid
renter's insurance policy? There was almost certainly other stuff I forgot; I
remember seeing people at viewings with bunches of paper centimeters thick.
Some of this is difficult (read: impossible) for someone just moving to
France.

If you don't have these documents, they could be nice and welcoming and try to
accommodate you. Or they could just pick one of the 20 people who showed up to
the same viewing and who _did_ bring 100 pages of crap. In my limited
experience, they do the latter. Overall, "fine" isn't the word I'd choose to
describe this.

> I wouldn't say the same of Stockholm, Dublin or San Francisco

"X isn't quite as shitty as San Francisco" is faint praise indeed.

~~~
notJim
Other than the receipt thing, this sounds the same as anywhere I've rented… I
agree it's a shitty system all around, but I don't think any of it is unique
to Paris.

~~~
tom_mellior
Oh, sure, it's not unique, but it's not a sign of a particularly healthy
market.

For our current apartment in another EU capital my partner and I were asked
informally what we did for a living. I mentioned my income, but I think it was
without being asked explicitly. I was prepared to show my work contract as
proof, but they never asked. Those were all the required "formalities" before
we were given the contract to sign.

Rents around here are rising at a rate of something like 7% per year, so it's
not like there's too much housing, but it's not quite as constrained as
elsewhere.

------
thecleaner
I don't understand this romantic idea of Olden Times. I doubt any Parisian
misses dying of simple dieases or just not having access to emergency care. I
don't understand why people would ever romanticize with the old days. Sure, we
ought to remember our history but we don't need to romanticize it. It was
awful.

~~~
keiferski
Progress is not all-encompassing; it is entirely possible to claim that 21st-
century medicine is preferable to 19th-century medicine while simultaneously
preferring 19th-century architecture, art, or other aspects of society. Paris
today may be cleaner and safer than it's ever been, but it's also far less
exciting or intellectually interesting than it was in its heyday.

The prevalence of this view in the tech community is especially ironic
considering that San Francisco was a far nicer city to live in 50-60 years ago
(in general, of course - not for every segment of the population.)

~~~
AdrianB1
Knowing Paris as it is now and comparing to the photographs in the article I
am happy that cleanup was performed. The old architecture was maybe
interesting to some extent, but very close to a huge slum.

~~~
masklinn
Note that you can also clean things up without tearing it down entirely. Many
cities have retained historical centers in that style without keeping the
"slum" bits, and it does makes for more interesting walking around than huge
boulevards and avenues.

There's an architectural movement to come back to these more human-sized city
designs too: smaller streets, more mixed use, less emphasis on large (and
motorised) transportations, incorporation of structural shading and breeze-
shaping, ...

~~~
AdrianB1
It works for small towns, not capital cities with multi-million inhabitants.
Even with the (fabulous) dense underground network you need larger boulevards
and parks, not 3 meter wide streets everywhere. I am not a fan of Champs
Elysee (there are so many better places), but it gives some air to the city. I
think Paris 200 years ago was claustrophobic and a maze.

------
rb808
Its still amazing to me how bad modern construction is. Paris was build with
no electricity, no cars/trucks, no computers, no massive cranes and they can
build a city that is more beautiful than any modern city. Even in the US pre-
war apartment buildings are more solid, higher ceilings and more ornate than
anything built in the last 50 years.

~~~
kmlx
“a city that is more beautiful than any modern city” to each his own. i would
rather live in a modern flat in La Defanse than in the centre of Paris. i feel
those long and wide boulevards are not really meant for humans, and those old
buildings have horrible flats. give me some narrow and winding London roads
any time of day. preferably full of modern skyscrapers.

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gonmad
The new sewerage system was a revolution, and Paris really needed a
transformation up to digging the ground.

------
glup
On a similar topic, I greatly enjoyed "The Other Paris" by Luc Sante, a sort
of long-term social history of the city with focus on the marginalized.

------
ojosilva
I love Paris, but just like Barcelona, their wide boulevards can be off-
putting sometimes and their more cozy, narrow-street, neighborhoods tend to be
tourist traps. Montmartre and Borne come to mind, both gorgeous but crowded
with visitors and defaced by postcard stands.

Barcelona in particular went through its own Haussmann-style revamps
throughout the years, in the XIX century but also for the 1992 Olympics,
giving its current and impressive urban layout. [1]

But the thing is I fell in love with Madrid. Its narrow streets downtown, some
of them eerie mazes, make living here quite the authentic and unique urban
experience.

[1] [https://www.vox.com/energy-and-
environment/2019/4/8/18266760...](https://www.vox.com/energy-and-
environment/2019/4/8/18266760/barcelona-spain-urban-planning-history)

------
hinkley
When I visited Paris, I could see the Arc de Triomphe from the Louvre and
thought I would just walk there. After all the walking I'd already done I gave
up and took the Metro the last two stops.

My sense of distance was thrown off by how monstrously huge the Arc is. I
don't know where they take the pictures of it from, but standing across the
street from it I had to just about stand on my head to get the whole thing
into frame on my camera.

And as big as the Arc is, the Napoleonic Louvre is bigger (And, I might add,
covered with his initial, like a child marking his belongings). And they
additions were made in such a way that from the outside it looks five times
bigger than it is. There's a certain element of shock and awe going on here.

The only thing I've seen on a similar scale is the Washington Monument, and
you understand why all the pictures of the Lincoln statue make it look like
it's immediately behind the pillars. It is not. It's on the far end of a large
room, also too big to get into frame. It's just so big that it destroys
perspective.

To people confronted with this for the first time, I can see how they might
wonder why they didn't stop at a smaller monument. In an era without high
rises, there's a bit of grotesquery about the scale of these things. They were
paid for on the backs of the lower class. I'm sure it was a very concrete
image of the slide back into monarchy.

The only thing I've seen on a similar scale in the US, aside from nature, is
the Lincoln Memorial. Seeing the monument, you understand why all the pictures
of the Lincoln statue make it look like it's immediately behind the pillars.
It is not. It's on the far end of a large room, also too big to get into
frame. It's just so big that it destroys perspective.

Now, in an era of high rise apartments, the ridiculous proportions prevent
these buildings from simply being swallowed in a sea of truly mundane
buildings of comparable size. And that is probably why these places have such
a tourist draw even today.

------
unreal37
I was really hoping this article would have been about how Paris of 2019 has
lost some of it's charm compared to Paris of 2008 and before. Need to find an
article about that.

------
baud147258
> suburbs, with the border between the two divided by a highway called “the
> periphery” (its construction completed in 1973), a ring road that encircles
> all of Paris proper

A more exact translation would be "peripheral". And unlike what the author
asserts, Haussmann’s transformation did not remove all popular lodging from
Paris. And I'd say that removing the slums, adding proper sanitations, opening
wide boulevards were a good thing.

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pmontra
The link gives me 403 Forbidden. Link to the Wayback Machine
[https://web.archive.org/web/20190808100014/https://www.lapha...](https://web.archive.org/web/20190808100014/https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/old-
paris-no-more/)

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justinator
If you liked this piece, a good read is, "Parisians: An Adventure History of
Paris" by Graham Robb.

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boyadjian
Of course, old Paris is no more ! I live near Paris, and I go in this town
only when I am forced to. Residential intensification, insecurity (pickpockets
in the metro), migrants, Paris nowadays has nothing to do with the romantic
vision of American people. Real Parisians now live in the suburb, there is
some very nice towns in the suburbs. (Others not so nice, it depends where you
go).

~~~
simonsarris
Which suburbs are nice?

~~~
ticktacktock2
16 out of the top 20 French _communes_ by household incomes are in the
Parisian suburbs [0]. Generally, the western suburbs are richer, as well as
the ones directly next to Paris.

[0]
[https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenu_fiscal_par_m%C3%A9nage_...](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenu_fiscal_par_m%C3%A9nage_en_France#Paris_et_la_r%C3%A9gion_parisienne)

