
China introduces ‘social’ punishments for scientific misconduct - sndean
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07740-z
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dantheman
This is insane; this creates a system that can easily blackball an individual
with no recourse.

Do you think the person denying a bank loan, hiring, approving jobs, etc. is
going to check and verify that what the person did is wrong? Or can this at
any moment be used against anyone.

If the government wants to punish someone it should be through the courts and
through a fine or some sort of government restriction, not enforced by the
public sector.

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NeedMoreTea
My gut reaction is to agree with you.

After a little thought, I'm not so sure.

Could such a system prevent scientists and doctors claiming, on behalf of
their employer, that there's no connection between smoking and health, or that
there's no anthropogenic climate change, or that there's no asbestos in the
baby powder? Then there's the countless pseudo scientific cures and remedies.
Could it do better than the system we have?

Clearly, it could be abused, but so can the system we have and it is being,
heavily.

Which produces the more honest result?

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justicezyx
Why is this down voted?

This comment raised a reasonable, and frankly, quite meaningful, question
about the prospect of this new system.

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zozbot123
To quote the Guidelines: "Please don't comment about the voting on comments.
It never does any good, and it makes boring reading." Votes tend to improve a
lot over time as more users visit, so just wait.

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rhegart
I agree with this. They are punishing those who are using fake CVs, falsifying
data, fake resumes. We don’t have much of a problem here with that and it’s
easy to do solid background checks and ethics are just higher. In that
environment this may be a great solution. They aren’t arresting or jailing
anyone and this in my opinion is an ample threat to prevent would be
borderline cheaters to think twice.

There is far more temptation to cheat when money, job, promotion is on the
line and you have no social welfare to fall back on. False scientific data
worsens the country’s image and threatens lives etc.

We have our own deep deep problems with research but that’s another
discussion.

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fouric
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the entire "social credit" system
completely opaque? As far as I know, there's no due process, trial, or
opportunity for those being labeled with an offense (for to be "accused"
implies that there is some transparency involved) to defend themselves. That,
coupled with the Chinese government's abuse of the system to suppress their
citizens (the system already penalizes you for merely suggesting that the
government is imperfect) makes me think that it'll likely be used to e.g.
punish those publishing papers that don't agree with the state narrative.

~~~
rhegart
Oh you’re absolutely right about the punishing those who don’t agree with the
state. But as of now they already do punish by sending them into a black cell
disappearing forever. Xi has done this to anyone including multibillionaires
and CCP highest ranking billionaires. When he was in charge of rooting out
corruption, he went after enemies to shore up political support. A group of
highly influential CCP elites wrote a letter disagreeing with the road to
tyranny and I believe every one of them disappeared.

I’m sure the system has abuses, I think it is opaque but not sure but I
imagine beaurocrats will abuse it with petty grudges and bribes. Just in this
case, I’m glad China is cracking down on scientific fraud and I prefer these
measures to jail. I don’t think going against the state’s narrative for hard
sciences is possible. For policy, sociology, history, I’m sure there is
already an iron hand there with no room to wiggle.

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owenversteeg
> A group of highly influential CCP elites wrote a letter disagreeing with the
> road to tyranny and I believe every one of them disappeared.

I am extremely curious what this letter contained. Do you have any idea what
it was called or any ideas on how to find it? Key words or a time frame or
anything like that. (Not accusing you of making it up at all by the way, if it
sounds like that.)

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jhedwards
A little shameless self-promotion here, but if anyone is interested I just
finished translating part of an article from Han dyansty China about law and
punishment: [https://dragoncarvings.wordpress.com/2018/12/08/law-and-
puni...](https://dragoncarvings.wordpress.com/2018/12/08/law-and-punishment-
in-the-book-of-han/)

~~~
ConfusedDog
I appreciate you doing this. Much wisdoms in the Book of Han as usual. Though
I agree with a lot of points in there, the problem is power corrupt the
wisest. Chinese has been through those issues so. many. times... Still making
the same mistakes. There WILL be abuses of power, inequalities and social
disruptions because of this. Cycle of life in deed.

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fourier_mode
I have some doubts regarding this --

1.) What if the topic on which someone wants to publish is still developing,
and the researches in the meantime produces wrong results which can be a
genuine case, then does the individual get penalized?

2.) Also if point 1 is allowed then one might always claim this as a backdoor
escape for all wrong publications.

3.) What role does a reviewer have if there is a false publication, will the
reviewer be also punished?

I am not suggesting this is a bad move, it is just a different view point
which might actually work out for good, but unless all points have been
addressed correctly, claiming that something might be a punishable offence is
definitely a step in the wrong direction.

~~~
tsumnia
I'd add the follow-up question of "how could this system being maliciously
gamed?"

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joedevon
There should be severe punishment for scientific misconduct. Especially fraud.
The lynchpin is who gets to decide? That said, I suggest another punishment.
Branding cheaters with a scarlet letter. WCGW?

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randall
This is so complex. I think it's too complex to completely understand for me
(dude in california). Originally I thought it was kind of dystopian, but in
itself (ie academics doing "bad things") it fits into the rest of the social
fabric of the community. The overall social credit system is super strange to
me, which I think is worth talking about, but this part seems like an
extension of that status quo.

I think people need more economic mobility, and the ability to live where they
want when policies like this come up. Bringing the smartest / most
entrepreneurial Chinese away from China because of bad policy is one way of
driving economic incentives... but I'm not sure how to deal with this in
itself.

Makes me want to study sociology more though.

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pmarreck
> The overall social credit system is super strange to me

Spotted the person who hasn’t seen the relevant (and really awesome) Black
Mirror episode.

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RockmanX
thats horrible! It makes me don't want to go back to China for having a
faculty job.

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tlb
What sort of research do you want to do that you're afraid might result in
punishment?

Or put another way, what do you think a government agency might see as
misconduct that you see as legitimate?

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marcosdumay
> what do you think a government agency might see as misconduct that you see
> as legitimate?

I'm not the GP, but that one is easy:

\- Discovering that some drug is ineffective (or worse) when the manufacturer
has made party contributions;

\- Discovering that some public policy does not benefit the population while
it benefits some politician;

\- Any research on a propaganda line with results that are not aligned with
the official truths.

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woodandsteel
My understanding is that the Chinese government is implementing this system
because there has been a great breakdown in social norms of honesty and rule-
following. For thousands of years the Chinese operated under an elaborate set
of social norms from Confucianism.

But then these were thrown away under Communism, and in particular during the
Cultural Revolution period there was paranoid chaos, and a great loss of
social trust. And then a further radical change with the capitalist industrial
revolution under Deng Jiaoping.

The consequence is that people don't trust anyone outside their immediate
circles, and often feel no obligation to act in a non-harmful way toward them.
The Government is trying to restore a sense of moral obligation to the members
of the population. It will be interesting to see how well it goes.

~~~
contingencies
Eloquently stated. Although the observation requires a grasping of Chinese
history, so it will be dismissed by many, I believe this is on the mark, not
withstanding standard disclaimers around any appeal to an historical utopia.

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abc-xyz
Surprised no one seems to have addressed the real purpose of the "social"
punishment for "scientific misconduct", which is to punish those who dare to
mention or research topics that the government doesn't like, such as the
tiananmen massacre, Huawei spyware, etc.

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dzink
What a great incentive for top Chinese scientists to immigrate elsewhere.

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cenal
Will this weaken the scientific community in China?

Will this cause researchers to become adverse to speaking out for fear of
retaliatory attacks on themselves?

Seems like a major step in the wrong direction for Chinese society.

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chillacy
> Chinese leaders have been increasingly focused on scientific misconduct,
> following ongoing reports of researchers there using fraudulent data,
> falsifying CVs and faking peer reviews

It sounds like a step in the right direction. It feels less gross if you think
of "social punishment" as a lighter version of "legal punishment". No need to
send cheaters to jail, but don't let them off the hook either.

Assuming the system won't be abused for political (I'm sure it will), the
detection is accurate (I'm sure it'll be hard), the social punishment is
reasonable (we'll see), it sounds reasonable in theory.

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asituop
The social score in China is even worse than in Black Mirror, it defines
everything you can access from bank, education, job, health, transport ,
social relationships, etc.

It is not a legal score, it _is_ a social score (both in theory and in
practice)

I completely agree that it is stupid to send non-dangerous people to jail, but
we should punish them with fines and possibly specific job restrictions
decided on a per-case basis by a tribunal if there is a clear danger, but not
by restricting their every aspect of their private, public, social and
professional life.

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BurningFrog
Fines will give you less money, which will restrict every aspect of your
private, public, social and professional life.

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Jyaif
"people who lose trust in one area of society should face restrictions in
other areas."

Sounds very reasonable to me.

