
Investigation: Police Shootings - ddispaltro
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/
======
tptacek
Some notes:

* The Guardian has a very similar feature, "The Counted":

[http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-
interactive/2015/jun/0...](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-
interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database)

The Guardian's feature is better in some ways; for instance, it attempts to
account for all police engagement fatalities, not just shootings. Some of the
worst police abuses in the US haven't involved guns, and if you read the data
carefully you learn some surprising things, like how dangerous tasers are.

The Guardian also gives the state breakdowns weighted by their population,
making it easier to spot problem states. But WaPo makes it much easier to see
which states have more shootings of unarmed people.

* 79% of the people killed in this database were reported to have "deadly weapons" (not including cars).

* 64% of the people killed in this database were shot and killed while attacking someone with a deadly weapon.

You'd really like to have a more detailed breakdown on "deadly weapon";
specifically, you want to know which of the people shot had _firearms_ ,
versus knives.

Nobody was fatally shot by a police officer in Rhode Island? That's
surprising.

~~~
jessaustin
Can we find out if e.g. Laquan McDonald is included in the "64%"? If not, I'd
expect he was before the video came out. This is why I hesitate to consider
"mitigating circumstances". Public safety officers should be judged by their
effect on public safety, not by how well they cover their own asses.

~~~
dccoolgai
I wonder if you would feel that way if one of your loved ones was serving as
an officer of the peace - would you want them dealing with dangerous
situations on a daily basis people with no regard for "covering their own
ass"? Would you feel that way if there were an armed intruder in your home and
one of those officers had to respond to protect you? Would you want them to
intervene to protect you or your family or sit in your driveway deliberating
about whether they should "cover their own ass" or yours?

We don't need to excuse unwarranted police violence as a society, but it's
equally unfair to outsource dealing with violent and dangerous situations to
others and then glibly remove any means they have to deal with those
situations without getting killed themselves.

~~~
cbr
> "covering their own ass"

I think you and jessaustin may be using different interpretations of that
term, judging by their reference of the McDonald shooting. People are much
more ok with police officers doing what they need to do to keep themselves and
others safe at the time (your usage) than they are with officers lying about
why they used deadly force after the fact to keep from getting in trouble
(their usage).

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Laquan_McDonald](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Laquan_McDonald)

------
danso
FWIW (a alot, IMHO), here is the Github account for the data:

[https://github.com/washingtonpost/data-police-
shootings](https://github.com/washingtonpost/data-police-shootings)

Seems like no big deal but with the commit history, we basically have a record
and frequency count of how, in a major project by a major news organization,
things get updated. Counting these incidents has always been difficult.
Victims names are rarely known at the time of death, nevermind the
circumstances. It can take awhile for that information to come out and when it
does, often a reporter (at a local newspaper) will have moved on to some other
story.

The Wapo team is dependent on local reports. The github repo let's us see how
efficient they are at it. Very cool transparent move on their part.

~~~
stevenrich
FWIW, this is exactly why we chose to post to Github. We wanted to be as
transparent as possible during a fluid process.

------
rayiner
Worth reading through these. A lot of people with mental illness shot just for
holding guns or knives or "driving toward police."

Recently, an au pair we know (from Germany), had a gun pulled on her because
she reached into her purse to get her ID when she was pulled over. The fact
that Maryland's finest are totally mental and she could get killed for doing
that never occurred to her.

~~~
ghshephard
On the flip side, if there really is a threat, police officers have standard
training which makes it clear that they have less than three seconds to react,
before they are killed.

Bringing their weapon to a ready state, actually _increases_ the time that
they have to react, and lets them make more rational decisions.

~~~
gohrt
Maybe they shouldn't rush to insert themselves into a situation where they
only have 3 seconds to react.

~~~
ghshephard
Every single traffic stop a police officer makes has them in this situation.

------
kennelliott
Hi everyone! I'm a developer who worked on this project, and I appreciate the
comments and suggestions. If you enjoyed this piece, you might want to check
out our related story about the six most important things we learned from a
year of investigating and reporting this data:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-
shoo...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-
year-end/)

~~~
tptacek
Is there a way to get the union of "Fleeing suspect" and "deadly weapon" (or,
better: "fleeing suspect" and "firearm") from the data?

~~~
kennelliott
The best we could advise you to do is select both "Deadly weapon" (under the
"Weapon" category) and "Other" (under "Threat Level"). Deadly weapon includes
all firearms, and the Other (threat level) category includes, but is not
limited to, individuals who were fleeing.

There will be some information in the blurbs that may indicate if the person
was fleeing specifically. We hope that in future versions we will be able to
provide a more specific breakdown.

~~~
tptacek
But you have the data somewhere, right, because you gave it a number (roughly
a quarter of all fatalities). Could I derive that number from your data set on
Github?

(I'm not questioning the number; I'd just like to see if I can generate more
context for it).

------
hackuser
Number of people killed last year by police in England and Wales: 3. That's
the highest since 2008. [1]

Why doesn't law enforcement seem to care? The government doesn't even track
police shootings (one reason the Washington Post created its database) and,
generally, law enforcement's reaction expresses no concern for the victims or
for reducing this appalling behavior and widespread failure.

[1] [http://www.inquest.org.uk/statistics/fatal-police-
shootings](http://www.inquest.org.uk/statistics/fatal-police-shootings)

~~~
_asdf_asdf
Wow! And England and Wales are entire _countries!_

Except...

They are much, much, much _smaller_ countries, and so...

One would actually expect a much, much, much smaller number for them.

Even _combined._

Whether by land area or population, they are considerably smaller.

~~~
spikels
Not that much smaller:

    
    
                       Population    Killed
                       (mid-2012)    by Police
      United States    314,102,623     984
      England & Wales   56,567,800       3
      Ratio                     6x    328x
    

Don't think land area makes sense. However adjusting for crime rates and
demographics would make a big difference.

------
startupfounder
I find this discrepancy very interesting, only ~4% of the people shot and
killed by police were female. Police departments are male dominate and maybe
this factors into the difference[0]

Male - 952

Female - 41

Why such a discrepancy? I don't think males are 23x more dangerous than
females.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_law_enforcement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_law_enforcement)

~~~
b_emery
Between 1980 and 2008 "Males committed the vast majority of homicides in the
United States at that time, representing 90.5% of the total number of
offenders" [1]. Men are much more dangerous. A general rule for a lost child
is to seek out a friendly looking woman, since she would be much more likely
to help and not harm the child [2].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime)
[2]
[http://gavindebecker.com/resources/child_safety/its_every_pa...](http://gavindebecker.com/resources/child_safety/its_every_parents_worst_nightmare_-
_your_child_is_lost._find_out_what_you_s/)

~~~
serge2k
Did you really have to add a second link which has no value except to imply
all men are assholes or sexual predators.

~~~
b_emery
As a man, I respectfully disagree. The link has much value if you're concerned
with keeping kids safe, and it's relevant as a direct consequence of the fact
that most crimes are committed by men. Your statement about men has it
backward. Not all men are criminals, but most violent crimes are committed by
men.

~~~
serge2k
According to that link we should be terrified that any man is a sexual
predator just waiting to take your kid away. Fuck that.

------
dudul
I remember reading an article by a former military guy who was deployed in the
middle east. Back home he had to deal with the police and basically said:
"they reminded me of myself when I was deployed and operating in enemy
controlled areas".

The guy goes on to explain on, according to him, the problem is that there is
a narrative that cops should be allowed to do _anything_ to protect their
life, as opposed to protect the public.

This is always the excuse when a cop kills a civilian by mistake - "he feared
for his life". Guess what? You're a freaking cop! Not a plumber, or an
accountant. Cops should not be allowed to kill someone on suspicion that maybe
there is a possibility that they will start shooting at them.

~~~
krapp
>Cops should not be allowed to kill someone on suspicion that maybe there is a
possibility that they will start shooting at them.

Civilians in the US often have this right, so why shouldn't the police?

~~~
dudul
For one, civilians don't have the role of "protecting and serving" :)

Cops are trained, and are supposed to learn how to handle a situation without
pulling out their gun [ _].

I don't necessarily disagree with you though. It would be good for people to
be able to walk at night with a bag of candies without getting gunned down. I
don't think that 2 problems should cancel each other.

[_] And I know I'm wrong when I say that. I remember another paper showing how
American cops spend a disproportionate amount of time practicing with their
gun as opposed to cops in other countries where they mostly learn how to
handle situations without their arms.

~~~
krapp
Police should certainly be held to a higher standard - and when they shoot
someone, they should be treated the same as anyone else, if not put under
greater scrutiny, because of the greater responsibility their position
entails.

But the fact remains that, for better or worse, every American by default has
the right to shoot people with guns under certain circumstances. I am not a
lawyer but I don't see a legal justification for limiting the ability of the
police to defend themselves, without treating police officers like felons.

~~~
dudul
I don't necessarily disagree, but the problem is you could say the opposite.
If you claim that police officers should have the same rights as a civilian,
couldn't you argue that civilians should have the same rights as police
officers?

I believe that the role of "police officer" comes with the idea that before
defending yourself you should be prepared to defend other first.

~~~
krapp
As far as I know, civilians and police officers in the US do have the same
rights, as far as firearms are concerned.

------
devy

      The FBI and CDC log fatal shootings by police, but officials acknowledge that their data is incomplete. [1]
    

This is a little bit ironic in that the government agencies cannot do their
job properly and it has to take a news company and their great investigative
journalism to get it done right?

[1]: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/how-the-
washington-p...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/how-the-washington-
post-is-examining-police-shootings-in-the-
us/2015/06/29/f42c10b2-151b-11e5-9518-f9e0a8959f32_story.html)

------
jmuyskens
Hi! I'm a developer who worked on this project. If you'd like to download and
check out our data, we are making it available in a repository on GitHub:
[https://github.com/washingtonpost/data-police-
shootings](https://github.com/washingtonpost/data-police-shootings)

------
dsugarman
they did an incredible job here, very well done UI easy to filter and educate
yourself.

The saddest story I found:

[http://www.cbsnews.com/news/autistic-6-year-old-shot-
killed-...](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/autistic-6-year-old-shot-killed-
during-police-pursuit-in-louisiana-report-says/)

~~~
burkaman
If anyone is wondering, the police were charged with second degree murder in
this case: [http://www.wdsu.com/news/local-news/new-orleans/grand-
jury-i...](http://www.wdsu.com/news/local-news/new-orleans/grand-jury-indicts-
marshals-in-marksville-shooting-that-critically-wounded-man-killed-
boy/36902048)

They have plead not guilty and will be tried soon:
[http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2016/01/trials_set_for_d...](http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2016/01/trials_set_for_deputies_charge.html)

------
blisterpeanuts
Just for a fuller picture, here's the listing of police killed, by year, by
state, etc.:

[https://www.odmp.org/search?name=&agency=&state=&from=2015&t...](https://www.odmp.org/search?name=&agency=&state=&from=2015&to=2015)

Sample search is for 2015, when 129 officers died from all causes including
automobile accidents; 39 were killed by gunfire, 5 by vehicle pursuit, 7 by
vehicular assault, etc.

------
grb423
Who determines whether mental illness is present and how?

~~~
stevenrich
Usually family members, though police sometimes state it as well.

------
gscott
I found this website the other day
[http://killedbypolice.net/](http://killedbypolice.net/) turns out several
people per day are killed by police which I was surprised by.

------
mempko
What the hell is going on in California? Actually, better question is why is
Illinois so much less violent?

------
bdavisx
Blacks were 26% of the deaths, but only make up 13% of the population.

------
jbattle
The state by state numbers are surprising. CA has about 1/10th of the total
shootings. IL has only 20, which is less than a lot of other states (NM for
example). Florida and Texas seem to be the other big standouts

~~~
archgoon
Why on earth would it be surprising that California, with 12% of the
population of the United States, would account for 10% of the total shootings?
Florida, based on it's population, would have about 61 shootings (it has 60),
and Texas would be expected to have about 84 (it has 96, or about 20% more
than expected).

The only surprising ones you've mentioned are Illinois (which is about half
the expected rate) and New Mexico, which is about 3 times the expected.

------
grb423
Note to self: When uniformed officers approach to serve my arrest warrants,
drop cellphone and put hands up. These dudes are dangerous!!

~~~
b_emery
It actually is good advice to keep your hands visible at all times. It's a
step in the right direction of keeping the officer at ease.

