
Self-Discipline Outdoes IQ in Predicting Academic Performance in Adolescents - chegra
https://camcom.ngu.edu/Science/PSYC/PSYC%202385/Dr.%20Dobson%27s%20Spring%202009%20Course/Article%20Review%20I/Biological,%20Cognitive%20and%20Social%20Development%20Articles/Self%20discipline%20and%20academic%20success.pdf
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HSO
I wouldn't be surprised if this held true for particular subjects that are
generally thought of as "hard" as well. My favorite is mathematics. I used to
have a really tough time with maths and used to hate it. Then, the smartest
friend I have (who coincidentally did his PhD in financial mathematics with
Freddy Delbaen back then -- for those who don't know this area, that means he
was really good) once made an offhand remark along the lines of "Most people
think of mathematicians as 'geniuses' -- if only. You have no idea how much
you simply have to learn by heart and how much work it can be." That sort of
pushed me over the edge and I started to re-learn mathematics from the ground
up, starting with, yes, high-school material, working my way up with MIT OCW
courses (<http://ocw.mit.edu>) and eventually being able to take PhD classes
in statistics in the space of about 2-3 years (incl. periods of part- and
full-time work). Not bad for a guy who couldn't tell the difference between
cos and sine functions when he started. And all because I shed the notion of
"math is for talented people" and started to actually work my ass off. It was
surprisingly "easy" once I put in the work and I also noticed how shortcuts
taken in one part would hurt me down the road later so it really was all about
remaining disciplined.

~~~
flatline
I just finished a course on integral calculus...one of my classmates said he
put in 20-30 hrs/week and he ended up dropping the class - he just couldn't
understand the problems and he was a terrible test taker. I put in a lot of
work in the first month or so then the rest of the course sort of just sailed
by. I guess my only point is, YMMV...

~~~
kylec
Integral calculus is easy - it's all about calculation. Where math got hard
for me was when the focus shifted from calculation to proof (abstract algebra,
number theory, real analysis). I thought I could coast by with the same sort
of intuitive understanding I had with calculus, but I was wrong and I didn't
have the self discipline that was required to do well.

~~~
chegra
With proof you have to do a whole host of them first. I remember, filling a
book with proof. Eventually, a pattern will emerge and they would be easy. At
first, I used to hate them but practise enough times and you would want them
to show on the exams.

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lawn
I'm not surprised.

For me school has always been about discipline and dedication and not about
skill. The school adapts itself to a lower difficulty so that more will pass
and they compensate by making it more cumbersome so that the skilled, but not
so disciplined, will get bored and not perform as well.

This was also my personal experience. I was pretty good at math but I never
got any challanges so I just didn't do anything, but luckily I aced the tests
and the only homeworks we got where to have complete the chapters. This
translated to other courses where I was good, but I got bored and not
motivated so I got a lot worse grades than I could've had if I was dedicated.

I managed to motivate myself later on to get good grades, other would call
them great, but I know I could've had straight A grades if I just weren't so
lazy and skipped a lot of hours.

Furthermore it doesn't help (doesn't show in grades) if you know a subject
really well. Often the workaholics, or a bit nicer: those with more discipline
than me, would just study like hell before a test and get a great score, where
I wouldn't but I knew the subject well enough so I would get a great score
too. I'm a bit upset with this because I doubt that they could remember
anything from those tests but I felt I could remember them for months.

~~~
jgg
>I'm a bit upset with this because I doubt that they could remember anything
from those tests but I felt I could remember them for months.

On one Calculus test I had, I didn't study or do any of the homework and
pulled a ~90% score. When talking to someone who got a perfect 100%, he
casually informed me that he forgot how to integrate between tests. I was
shocked to hear this, but apparently it's the norm.

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swah
And if you are here reading this after telling yourself you really would code
your ass off today, you already lost.

~~~
rauljara
And if you posted on this thread after telling yourself you really would code
your ass off today...

Seriously, though, sometimes taking short breaks can cause you to be more
productive than just slogging through. Not all trips to the internet are
procrastination. Sometimes you really do need to just stop coding for a few
minutes. Though I imagine there are better ways to recharge your mental
batteries than HN. HN just makes you think too much sometimes.

~~~
swah
Err, my short stops are from BC2...

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silverlake
Duh. But you can get pretty far on pure IQ. Every male in my family is a
useless lazy sack, but we all have science PhDs.

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marltod
They controlled for IQ, but they didn't control for desire. Some people want
to make good grades for pride, to impress their parents, etc.. Others would
rather do something other than the busy work required to be in the 94th
percentile as shown in the graph. There is no difference between getting As
and Bs in 8th grade. Colleges mainly look at grades in 9-12.

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amichail
Why do you care about academic performance? Wouldn't your time be better spent
on entrepreneurial endeavors?

BTW, it appears that fast thinkers are less likely to be creative people:

[http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527535.500-a-slow-
mi...](http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527535.500-a-slow-mind-may-
nurture-more-creative-ideas.html)

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Detrus
In our current world, full of colorful distractions, an education system that
relies on self-discipline is obsolete.

Some students have a "discipline" trait, they'll force themselves through
boring drudgery to get the A, then never look at the material again, the A is
all that matters. That's a waste of time.

True "discipline" comes from having an interest in the material. That interest
has to be sparked by something, the material gives you a buzz, and working on
it does not feel like work. That's not something I'd call self-discipline.

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jergosh
"compared with their more impulsive peers, highly self-disciplined eighth
graders earned higher GPAs and achievement-test scores, were more likely to
gain admission to a selective high school, had fewer school absences, spent
more time on their homework, watched less television, and started their
homework earlier in the day."

First has a lot to do with what is expected at school (wonder what the data
looks for 3rd level education) and the rest is pretty obvious...

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jodrellblank
<http://blog.jgc.org/2009/10/damn-torpedoes.html> (Can't find HN link for it)

[http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/12/rules-are-no-
obstac...](http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/12/rules-are-no-obstacles-
for-committed-people/) "Rules are no obstacles for committed people"

------
10ren
oblig: <http://www.paulgraham.com/determination.html>

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noteasynothard
I think the people that think before hearing or reading about the solution are
the one best prepared for Academic Performance. A funny experiment should be
to take an English native teenager to a sociology class in Chinese language
and then ask him about what he has learned.

------
hophead
So I'd buy this, but how do I as an adult with lower than average self-
discipline improve this facet of myself? Is it something you are born with? It
seems paradoxical to try to achieve high self discipline through determined
hard work.

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alanh
Clicked the [scribd] link and got this (and only this): "Hello, you have an
old version of Adobe Flash Player. To use iPaper (and lots of other stuff on
the web) you need to get the latest Flash player."

WTF? I thought Scribd was HTML5-in’ it up?

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apsec112
Why should anyone _want_ to get high grades in eighth grade? What's the point?
No one's ever going to look at them.

~~~
obfuscate
Selective (private/charter/magnet) high schools. Otherwise, yeah.

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tkahn6
This does not surprise me at all. Anyone with average intelligence can get
good grades in high school - it's just a matter of how much time you're
willing to devote to getting them.

The trade-off comes in deciding whether you'd rather get good grades or spend
time learning other things on your own. It comes down to how much you trust
the educational system you're in to fully make use of your time and
intelligence.

I think it's a bad thing that, in general, grades to not track IQ. Hard work
is important, but only when the effort does work on your intelligence (similar
to the physical definition of work). One can spend hours on a paper or a
PowerPoint and have done nothing to further their intelligence; and yet these
assignments are what students are typically graded on.

~~~
thribbler
>spend time learning other things on your own

Hear Hear! And _all_ learning is done on one's own, really.

IQ is, not to put too fine a point on it, bunk.

Grades are also bunk. They can never measure _depth_ of knowledge, which is
the thing that matters, intellectually speaking. Depth depends on connections
formed with _other areas_ of knowledge, which are unique to each student.

~~~
aoriste
There is intrinsic to the academic system a pervasive issue of trust.

Grades can indicate the depth of knowledge, but with the disclaimer that both
the arbitrating grader is trusted (in a very special sense), and that the
method used to decide grades be both defensible and explicable to others.

To provide a concrete example. A paper on the first book of Hume's Treatise of
Human Nature attempts to bring a new argument to bear on the consequences to
modern epistemology incurred by Hume's concept of abstract ideas. The paper is
written as a final in a graduate level philosophy class, and the instructor is
known to be knowledgeable, intelligent, fair, and honest. The paper receives a
B+. It is arguable that the mark is generally reflective of the student's
understanding and ability at the time the student wrote the paper. (this
example is taken from personal experience - I wrote this paper, and I feel
that the grade was reflective of my knowledge on the topic)

But without the trustworthy instructor, the grade would be meaningless. The
problem, if I were to speculate, is one of numbers - too many students, too
few professors. A basic premise of security is that the more parties involved
in a pact, the lest reliable the pact is, and if grades are to be a faithfully
representation of a students ability, the reliability of the academic pact is
paramount.

------
zackattack
I reviewed Daniel Goleman's book "Emotional Intelligence" on my blog last
month, and the psychological framework he uncovers does a good job of
accounting for/predicting these kinds of observed results

[http://www.zacharyburt.com/2010/04/understanding-human-
behav...](http://www.zacharyburt.com/2010/04/understanding-human-behavior-
emotional-intelligence/)

