
Courier Prime: It’s Courier, Just Better - ingve
https://quoteunquoteapps.com/courierprime/
======
munificent
This is a really neat solution to a very constrained problem space. For those
who don't know, Hollywood lives and breathes 12 point Courier. It is the
standard font for screenplays. Producers won't even look at a script that is
set in anything else because it implies the author doesn't know industry
culture and norms.

Also, by having a standard font size and metrics, it means that the number of
pages in a script directly corresponds to a certain quantity of text. That in
turn roughly corresponds to a certain length in time. The guideline is about a
page a minute. So people who work in film know that a 90 page screenplay will
be about a 1 1/2 hour-long film.

So Courier Prime is trying to improve the readability of that font without
touching any of the metrics that the industry relies on or alienating readers
who might think anything "not Courier" means "not professional".

~~~
whoisjuan
Thanks for explaining this. I was having trouble to understand what was the
concrete problem this font was trying to solve. That makes a lot of sense.
Especially the standardization of text length to determine actual playtime.

~~~
mcv
I don't see the relationship between text length and actual play time. Plays
and movies aren't just people spewing lines non-stop. Text/playtime varies a
lot between a Tarantino movie and something like Mad Max: Fury Road. It seems
like a pointless metric.

And while I like courier in general, I thought typography experts disliked it
because it's not as readable as proportional fonts. I'd expect readability to
be important for screenplays too.

Besides, stuff like word count is easy to automate.

So to me it seems that if the industry indeed insists on everything being in
courier, that's more likely to be a traditionalist remnant from the typewriter
era rather than a rational decision. But I admit I don't know this industry at
all.

~~~
WorldMaker
In addition to using a very standard font, screenplays have a lot of other
very strict formatting guidelines involving use of things like particular
whitespace rhythms.

It's the combination of the whole, including and especially the whitespace
rhythms (which are still connected to font metrics, of course), that lead to
the 1 page is approximately 1 minute guideline metric, because scene
descriptions and actions have different whitespace from dialog.

Interestingly, compared to your expectation that a Tarantino screenplay would
be more dense than the Fury Road screenplay, it is actually dialog that has a
lot more whitespace overall in the screenplay format (they are subject to
smaller inner columns) than scene descriptions/action descriptions (which use
the full width of the page). Word count wise, action involves a lot more prose
than dialog and many of the best action screenplays have more overall word
count than a more dialog-heavy screenplay. (What I've seen of the Fury Road
screenplay read like a novel, though as is pointed out elsewhere it is
fascinating because it was written storyboard first, which is the exception
rather than the rule.)

The screenplay format really is a fascinating thing to study. There are some
great books out there on the screenplay format and how it came to be what it
is today.

~~~
bjcy
Any top recommendations for those books? Super intrigued to read more.

~~~
WorldMaker
The big one that left a lasting impression for me at an early age was Lew
Hunter's Screenwriting 434. It does a very good job illustrating a lot of the
technical mechanics of the format and the Hollywood guidelines and
expectations that have built up around it (including the page per minute
expectation, and even the expectations on page per act, which is another
formula that Hollywood has), and some of why, using an example screenplay
throughout.

(Just be forewarned it is not a great example screenplay in the usual fashion
of such teaching examples because it is designed more towards the lesson plan
than coherency/quality as a story of its own; and also arguably another
example of that old weird maxim "those who can't, teach" given Lew Hunter's
mostly TV Movie writer IMDB credits.)

------
crazygringo
This is great.

Also, making it heavier is 1,000% necessary -- Courier has always been so
anemic it can actually be difficult to read when printed (and Courier New is
even worse). I don't know the history, but I've long wondered if it was
because digital Courier was based on the (thin) metal typewriter letterforms,
rather than the letters set to paper which would presumably have (thicker)
bleed.

Now I just wonder if script readers will react "ooh, I don't know why but this
looks _nice_ " or "ugh, something's weird about this script but I can't tell
what."

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
> I don't know the history, but I've long wondered if it was because digital
> Courier was based on the (thin) metal typewriter letterforms, rather than
> the letters set to paper which would presumably have (thicker) bleed.

That is _precisely_ why. Courier New was digitised off an IBM Selectric
typeball, and they didn't correct for the ink bleed which the typeball was
designed for.

~~~
snazz
Do you know why the people who digitized Courier made that (seemingly grave)
omission? It seems like far too big of an oversight to simply sweep under the
rug, after comparing the on-screen/printed-from-computer version with the
typewriter version.

~~~
rntz
This is actually a common problem with digitisations of metal fonts, not
specific to Courier. Many (although not all; Adobe's been pretty good about
avoiding this particular failing, for example) of them are too anemic for
screen use at body text size, presumably (although I have no hard evidence)
because of not taking account of ink bleed. Victims include Bembo (the first
one, not Bembo Book, which partially fixes this), several Caslons, Sabon,
Janson, (an extreme example) Simoncini Garamond, and even Computer Modern
(where the problem wasn't so much a transition from metal to digital, since
Computer Modern was designed digitally, but from METAFONT - which can be
parameterized, allowing "blackness" to be adjusted for ink spread - to Type 1
- which isn't).

Speculating a bit, one of the problems that digitisers may have encountered is
that ink bleed affects fonts differently at different sizes. At small point
sizes, ink bleed is proportionally large relative to the stroke width; at
large point sizes, ink bleed has negligible effect. This is actually exactly
what you want for readability's sake: at small sizes, you want to avoid thin
strokes, and ink bleed does exactly that. At large size, "thin" strokes aren't
actually thin any more. But a perfectly scalable digital font does not capture
this beneficial effect of ink spread.

~~~
crazygringo
Ah ha! I've long thought that of the Garamonds as well, it just never seemed
as extreme as with Courier.

The point you bring up with different proportional amounts of bleed at
different sizes is also quite relevant.

OpenType fonts have so many options now... I almost wonder if it would make
the most sense to have a bleed option built into the rasterizer that could
have defaults set by the typeface designer, but also adjusted by the user
(e.g. more bleed when using white-on-black). There are so many arcane options
on macOS's OS-level typeface options palette, it seems pretty reasonable.

------
ignoranceprior
Why does the ř (r with háček diacritic) in the "Europhilic" Czech text sample
appear so different from the normal letter r? Is it intentional? It's quite
jarring to me.

Screenshot: [https://i.imgur.com/h6yNHCo.png](https://i.imgur.com/h6yNHCo.png)

~~~
Groxx
strange. mine looks different (but ř is also a totally different shape)
[https://imgur.com/a/VpiXcGI](https://imgur.com/a/VpiXcGI) (Firefox on
Windows)

~~~
bauerd
Probably your browser falling back to a default font. Sure that Courier Prime
includes that symbol?

~~~
Groxx
probably. and I sure hope so, since they use it as an example.

but why in the world would you have that happen on a font demo site? use an
image/svg. otherwise it's risking becoming a demonstration that it's
unreliable/you don't know what you're doing. (not that browsers make this
stuff easy... but still.)

~~~
mcv
The fact that it renders in two very different ways for different people
suggests this is an error. A pretty bad one indeed for a font demo page. I
hope they fix it.

Has this been reported already? If not, I will. (Edit: I reported it on their
support page.)

------
alangpierce
Looks like here's the original announcement, which has more background on
motivations and has a comparison with regular Courier:

[http://johnaugust.com/2013/introducing-courier-
prime](http://johnaugust.com/2013/introducing-courier-prime)

~~~
smbullet
John August also talks about it in episode 74 of his podcast with Craig Mazin
called Scriptnotes: [http://johnaugust.com/2013/three-hole-
punchdrunk](http://johnaugust.com/2013/three-hole-punchdrunk)

Although you need to pay to access archived podcasts they have all of them
transcribed: [http://johnaugust.com/2013/scriptnotes-ep-74-three-hole-
punc...](http://johnaugust.com/2013/scriptnotes-ep-74-three-hole-punchdrunk-
transcript)

I highly recommend the podcast to anyone even remotely interested in the movie
industry. I've been listening for around 6 months now and can't stop.

------
heyjudy
Probably good for full-screen writing. Anywho.

Feel free to add an opinion, I've been evaluating and whittling choices of
fonts for _code development:_

So far Monaco and Source Code Pro seem best.

\- Fira Mono
[https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Fira+Mono](https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Fira+Mono)

\- Hack [https://sourcefoundry.org/hack/](https://sourcefoundry.org/hack/)

\- Inconsolata
[https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Inconsolata](https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Inconsolata)

\- Monaco [http://www.gringod.com/2006/11/01/new-version-of-monaco-
font...](http://www.gringod.com/2006/11/01/new-version-of-monaco-font/)

\- Pragmata Pro
[https://www.fsd.it/shop/fonts/pragmatapro/](https://www.fsd.it/shop/fonts/pragmatapro/)

\- Source Code Pro [https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-code-
pro](https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-code-pro)

I think monospaced, sans-serif, semi/bold, large punctuation and disambiguated
look-alikes with antialiasing on works best on a low res laptop. Monospaced
serifs seem to look better for code online.

~~~
oneseven
Fira Code is Fira Mono with coding ligatures:

[https://github.com/tonsky/FiraCode](https://github.com/tonsky/FiraCode)

I used to prefer Consolas (Inconsolata is a ~clone of Consolas) but the
ligatures made me switch.

~~~
ealhad
Ligatures really are neat, indeed.

------
karmakaze
I'm not a screenwriter, but Courier Prime Code/Sans seems very interesting.
Have to try it out on my various screens.

The italics are a bit distracting. The subjective tilt of letters seem to
vary, e.g. 'j' and 'l' may be have the same tilt but the 'l' appears more
vertical (as does 'i'). Also the tilt on the center line of 'e' seems weird to
me, but that's perhaps an intentional stylistic quirk.

~~~
bayindirh
Hack[0] is also a very nice font for coding. I use it on my terminals and IDEs
with joy.

[0]: [https://sourcefoundry.org/hack/](https://sourcefoundry.org/hack/)

------
tedmiston
It would be nice to see a visual diff vs Courier or Courier New, particularly
for development purposes.

~~~
snazz
alangpierce commented with the original announcement, which has a much better
close-up comparison: [http://johnaugust.com/2013/introducing-courier-
prime](http://johnaugust.com/2013/introducing-courier-prime)

------
IgorPartola
Is it just my device or is there something wrong with the r in Europhilic
Dobre?

------
fernly
I just made specimen paragraphs in Courier, Courier New, Courier Prime and
Prime Code, and Cousine[1]. I believe I much prefer the latter, for code and
editing. Also, despite looking beefier, Cousine text takes exactly the same
horizontal width as the Couriers do at the same nominal point size.

[1]
[https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Cousine](https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Cousine)

------
kbenson
I feel really old now that I realize we aren't talking about IMAP servers.
Also slightly let down, since that would have been a fun blast from the past.

~~~
elcomet
IMAP is much more recent than the Courier font, so you should feel young here.

~~~
kbenson
It's less about how old it is, and more about how long it's been out of the
general public consciousness. The courier font hasn't been (out of public
view) in recent memory, so it doesn't have the same nostalgia factor.

~~~
elcomet
Courier font has been in public memory for a very long time (but most
certainly people didn't know its name). It is much more known than IMAP is,
and most importantly, has been for decades

It's an industry standard for screenplays, and I think we all remember having
seen a screenplay in a movie or picture, with this weird monospace font.

You are certainly an outlier here.

~~~
kbenson
You read my comment as the opposite of what I said. Specifically, I said "The
courier font hasn't been (out of public view) in recent memory". That is,
there's no nostalgia, because it never left. And I'm not saying anything about
IMAP, I'm saying something about _Courier IMAP_ , which even as IMAP goes,
hasn't been in favor for a long time.

Being a top level comment, I would assume my comment is read with at least the
submission title in mind, as that was my intention. I was noting that I
initially interpreted it as referring to Courier MTA / IMAP (and referenced
IMAP servers to distinguish which _Courier_ I was referring to).

So, to be _very_ clear since apparently event my clarifications are being
misconstrued, the courier font _has_ been in public consciousness for as long
as I can remember. I believe the courier MTA _is not_ in the public
consciousness any more. If this submission, titled "Courier Prime: It’s
Courier, Just Better" was talking about mail servers (specifically, original
courier and a cleaned up fork of courier as the title would theoretically
allude to), then that would have been a cool blast from the past. It's not
about mail servers being things of the past, mail servers was just used as a
way to explain what other courier I thought it was originally referring to.

------
cryo
It is a bit confusing that the body text of the site has set Avenir Next as
font family.

~~~
tptacek
First, the site for the font isn't itself a screenplay; there's no reason for
it to be set in Courier. Second, setting the site in a neutral typeface draws
attention to the Courier font in the callouts.

------
voltagex_
Source at
[https://github.com/quoteunquoteapps](https://github.com/quoteunquoteapps)

------
dajonker
The "code" version doesn't seem to work very well for me on a screen. I'm
using vim in Gnome Terminal. It seems to be much less crisp than my personal
favorites, Fira Code or Hack
([https://sourcefoundry.org/hack/](https://sourcefoundry.org/hack/))

------
jen729w
It's nice, but a quick comparison in VSCode shows me that I still prefer Fira
Code to Courier Prime Code.

------
dbg31415
Adobe has done a good job of this too.

* Source Code Pro | Adobe Fonts || [https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/source-code-pro](https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/source-code-pro)

------
cylinder714
This reminds me of my preferred typeface from when I had a Selectric, Prestige
Elite. You don't see it much these days, as Courier is bundled with PostScript
printers and Windows, whereas Prestige Elite isn't free.

Courier has a pitch of ten characters per inch, while PE runs twelve per inch.
Ideal for business correspondence, but probably a bit too dense for scripts
(and college papers!).

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestige_Elite](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestige_Elite)

------
AnonymousRider
I installed this immediately in Ubuntu Gnome and set it be the system font for
documents & the interface. Courier has, for some reason, always been my
favorite font. It looks great!

------
yuripinto
Some time ago I actually designed a visual identity for an architect using
Courier Prime Sans ([https://www.behance.net/gallery/60374133/Juliana-Camara-
Abit...](https://www.behance.net/gallery/60374133/Juliana-Camara-Abitante-
Brand-Identity)). In that case I was more interest in its visual attributes -
monospaced type that implies technical ability, but with a friendlier, softer
character.

------
anilgulecha
Some more detail on courier variants for screenplays.
[http://www.rolandstroud.com/Fonts-1.html](http://www.rolandstroud.com/Fonts-1.html)

For trelby[0], we recommend courier 10 point, which renders much better on
more environments. [0]
[https://www.trelby.org/assets/courier10point.zip](https://www.trelby.org/assets/courier10point.zip)

------
vikinghckr
After years of switching between programming fonts, I finally settled on SF
Mono. Not planning to switch any time soon (and hopefully ever).

~~~
z3t4
I think Courier New is a decent programming font. I think Courier Prime Code
is a bit too stylish. I'm currently using DejaVuSansMono. Consolas has been my
favorite for it's great LCD sub pixel anti-alias, but it's Windows only and
with better pixel density screens we no longer have to use sub-pixel anti-
alias.

------
neverartful
Neat! This post reminded me of a mobile app I started developing, but then
abandoned it. I planned to create an iOS app that would cater to drama clubs
to help the cast members learn their lines. The motivation for me was to
create something that might be beneficial for the arts (in some tiny way), and
this app was the only thing that came to mind.

------
zerocrates
I suppose the issue with Liberation Mono is just that it looks too
"different"?

If I'm recalling correctly, it was also metric-compatible with Courier, as
that was largely the point of the Liberation fonts.

------
ajuc
Italics seem too similar to regular for coding. And anyway terminus or
consolas are better for that.

Maybe for screenplays it's the best.

------
tempodox
I'm curious as to why there is an extra Cyrillic version. Doesn't the font
have glyphs for unicode?

------
topkai22
Does it allow me to hit the page count of my essay even easier?

~~~
arthurfm
You might be interested in Times Newer Roman. [1] It's like Times New Roman,
but 5-10% wider so enables you to write 13% fewer words.

[1] [https://timesnewerroman.com/](https://timesnewerroman.com/)

~~~
anonytrary
Of course that's a thing! Although 13% doesn't sound like a significant
amount. The trick I used in high school: Write the essay. If it's too short by
20-30%, increase the verbosity in every place you can until it's long enough.
If it's short by more than 30% then you have bigger problems. If your essay
only needs an extra page on a 15 page assignment, chances are you can add
fluff and easily hit the 15 page mark.

~~~
comex
I think I'd have more use for the opposite: a font that's 13% _narrower_ , to
stuff more words into a page limit. It's harder to make text more concise than
more verbose!

~~~
anonytrary
Yes, I agree. Concision is an art, verbosity is a chore.

------
Groxx
> _But there’s no reason Courier has to look terrible._

With such small modifications (afaict) it seems odd to claim/imply that it
goes from "terrible" to great (or whatever). I like the "y" descender tho. And
more Unicode support is basically always good.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courier_(typeface)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courier_\(typeface\))

[https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/courier](https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/courier)

[https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/courier-
prime](https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/courier-prime)

