
Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help - worstorbest
http://pastebin.com/1S4cD666
======
marshray
This situation is actually very simple, don't let it feel overcomplicated:

Tell them you need an actual salary and actual health insurance in the next 30
days. If the venture can pay you to keep at it, that's great. Otherwise you'll
have to start looking around for a real job in a couple of weeks. Even the
most brick-and-mortar type of businessperson will completely understand this.

Stick to your schedule. It will either work out or it won't.

If it doesn't, no hard feelings.

~~~
pud
Disagree.

If you've truly lost faith in the founders and business -- which you have --
you should leave now & cut your losses. It's not going to work out, regardless
of salary.

As for how to make money after you leave -- get a job or find consulting work.
Then jump back into starting a business when you're ready again.

~~~
AdamN
Don't leave until you've clarified your equity stake and dotted all your Is
and crossed all of your Ts. However, you should then cut your losses and get
out of there. Half of a job is with whom you work and you've learned a great
lesson with 'idiot' detection. I've worked with assholes recently, and they
can actually be amazing assets at a company, but about 10 years ago I stopped
working with idiots and I haven't looked back.

I'm starting a cloud company in Nairobi if you want to do something totally
crazy ....

~~~
psionski
How are you going to make people pay for the clouds? Is this government-
sponsored? Otherwise it sounds really cool, I've seen such climate improvement
projects before, but I thought they require a huge scale (entire or several
countries), can a single company really make a significant impact?

~~~
psionski
After seeing some downvotes, etc., I'm starting to think you mean a hosting
company... Maybe the mention of Nairobi, Kenya made me think of clouds-as-in-
water-vapor :)

------
krmmalik
Take it from someone who "stuck with it" for 8 years hoping my co-founder(s)
would stop being idiots and worrying about the time and energy i had invested.
The best thing you can do right now, is get out of there, and get out fast.

They will never change. You'll spend your whole life getting them to be less
idiotic, and it will NEVER happen. No matter how good the product, how good
the idea, how good the business, how much the money and how much your passion;
if you do not have a team that you have any faith in, every step forward will
always result in two steps backwards.

I'm a self-certified expert in team dysfunctions and i'm telling you
categorically, that a dysfunctional team can never make it, despite what
anyone will ever say to you or whatever ounce of hope you may have.

I'm on skype or available via email if you want to speak further. Let me make
it clear, i'll be pretty harsh with you, because i rather see you wince a
little now, than die inside a few years later.

You've gained a whole load of experience. Value it and cherish it. The
experience is worth far more than the time invested and the product.

Let it go. Move on.

The only way to get out of a rut is to take a step back and JUMP!

------
shadowmatter
> I think my co-founders are idiots, that they fouled up their side of the
> deal, but I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail
> now.

You've got to let go of this attitude. If you cling to it, then you will never
leave, even if your co-founders are idiots and the business is a failure. What
you need to do is quit as soon as possible. Only then can you start on a
better endeavor and improve your quality of life.

I once heard someone say, "Give up on crap." It may sound juvenile, and it
goes against the rosy, feel-good "Never give up" pep talks that we're used to
and almost expect to hear. But I've found it to be a much better guide in life
decisions. Go with it.

~~~
djbender
> I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now.

Look up Sunk Cost Fallacy.

Also this related episode of Freakonomics is great:
[http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/09/30/new-freakonomics-
radi...](http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/09/30/new-freakonomics-radio-
podcast-the-upside-of-quitting/)

~~~
Cogito
It's easy to presume that sunk costs should have no weight when considering
the relative value of different options.

For many endeavours a certain amount of investment is required before returns
are seen - investments in time and money in particular. For this reason there
is almost always a cost to be considered switching between endeavours.

So, while I agree that throwing good money after bad is a silly thing to do,
the consideration should be how much more investment is needed to make this
endeavour profitable vs how much some other endeavour will take to become
profitable AND how much it will cost to switch.

You shouldn't weight how much has already been spent in this consideration,
however you have to understand the impact existing investment has had on the
road to profitability.

Time and money already spent is a crude metric that lends itself to the Sunk
Cost Fallacy, but considering the metric is not the same thing as falling
victim to the fallacy.

[EDIT] The following comment explains this really well through an example:

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5722032>

~~~
raylu
I think you misunderstand sunk cost. Sunk cost basically just says to always
employ a purely-forward-looking strategy when evaluating costs and benefits.

> vs how much some other endeavour will take to become profitable AND how much
> it will cost to switch.

Wait, what are these two costs? Aren't they the same? Where did the cost of
switching come from?

~~~
Cogito
> I think you misunderstand sunk cost. Sunk cost basically just says to always
> employ a purely-forward-looking strategy when evaluating costs and benefits

I don't think I misunderstand sunk cost, but perhaps I didn't explain my point
well enough.

I agree that you need to be forward looking, but whilst looking forward it can
be important to consider existing investment. Existing investment is not
_ALWAYS_ worth nothing, so its value needs to be accounted for. Existing
investment is also a metric that, whilst lending itself to entwining one in
the Sunk Cost Fallacy, is an important part of answering the question "how
much _more_ investment is needed?"

The sunk cost fallacy applies in a situation where previous investment has
been lost. The typical example is in gambling, where each spin of the wheel is
independent of how much you have already lost on the table. When in a startup,
however, previous investment is not _necessarily_ lost, so switching to a new
one is (typically) not the same as continuing one you have already invested
in.

>> vs how much some other endeavour will take to become profitable AND how
much it will cost to switch.

> Wait, what are these two costs? Aren't they the same? Where did the cost of
> switching come from?

The cost of switching is a way of characterising things like lost earnings and
payouts that are not directly related to starting a new endeavour. They are
typically, though not always, constant regardless of the new endeavour being
considered, and so it makes sense to keep them separate.

Examples of switching costs:

* paying out a phone contract;

* loss of long service benefits (if someone is close to receiving long service benefits they will typically wait to receive them before switching jobs);

* non-compete clauses.

------
misframer
> I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now.

You're talking about sunk costs. There's nothing you can do about that now.
Focus on the future. Think about your future time and energy.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs>

~~~
famousactress
This is very good advice, and there are a number of times in my career (and
life, really) that I wish I had respected this mode of thinking. It didn't get
through to me until I read it in a book about chess, actually. In the book the
author warned that beginners get into trouble by paying attention to momentum.
Instead, it suggested, it was better to look at the board each move as freshly
as possible and ignore what happened to get it into that state because it was
irrelevant.

More often than not, I think that's good advice for darned near everything.
I'd say take a fresh look and weigh your options. If you didn't have a job
right now is this the one you'd take? If not then stop! Because that's what
you're doing every morning, you're taking this job for no better reason than
you took it yesterday and the day before that.

------
peteforde
Two pieces of wisdom for you, and a bit of empathy:

1\. If you think that there's a problem, there's a problem.

2\. The best kind of family business is a sole proprietorship.

I was once the drummer in a touring rock band. We had a real shot, with
significant milestones behind us. Unfortunately our weak link was an immature,
melodramatic singer that was terrified of success. I stuck around for two
years longer than I should have, feeling like I'd invested too much time and
money. My ego and identity were tied to the project.

Well, surprise surprise: the band broke up, and it sucked. However, there's no
question that I learned a huge amount and that it prepared me for everything
(good and bad) that came after.

You'll be just fine.

------
joelrunyon
> I think my co-founders are idiots, that they fouled up their side of the
> deal, but I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail
> now.

Well I think you found your problem right there. Whether or not, they're
actual idiots, this is a problem you need to address. EIther get out of it or
you need to find a way to respect them.

If you can't respect your co-founders, you're gonna have trouble working with
them.

~~~
iuguy
I came here to post this. Ultimately he needs to work out whether or not he
can talk to his co-founders or not about this. If he can't it'll tear the
relationship apart and it doesn't matter whether or not the company's making
or losing money, without that respect he'll have nothing but pain, tears and
resentment.

------
brandon272
Stop wringing your hands over this and leave this venture. Don't worry about
hurt feelings. Move on with your life. Get a job that brings in some income.
Do it for the sake of your sanity and your relationships with loved ones.

~~~
umsm
Agreed 100%! Leave ASAP because your time is valuable and you need to make the
most of the limited time you have :)

------
bcoates
The difference between a business and a social club is _making payroll_. Your
organization has not become a business until it does so; as soon as it fails
to make payroll, it is an ex-business. This applies even to a one-person
operation, where the rule is called "Pay Yourself First".

If you have to invest your own cash to pay your living expenses, then do so up
front, in a planned, structured amount, _get equity for it_ , and pay your
salary out of that fund.

If you aren't paying yourself or getting paid, you aren't working at a failed
business, you're _unemployed at a non-business_. This makes your decision to
stay and restructure or bail a practical rather than emotional one: is making
your own payroll until things might work out at all viable financially? Will
it make you do things you don't want to, or can't afford to, do?

This has nothing to do with not trusting your family; I grew up with parents
who ran their own business, and religiously maintained separate business and
family accounts, paying themselves (and later, me and other non-family
employees) salaries. I've seen the results of small partnerships and family
businesses that didn't do this; it isn't pretty even when it works.

------
evo_9
I was in a very similar situation, I built a web-app pretty much exactly as my
biz partners needed; I spent probably 15 months writing it. I put everything
into this venture, I lived on my savings and drained my 401ks as a last ditch
effort hoping things would turn around.

Guess what, never happened. My partners were idiots, they didn't want to do
anything I suggest. I told them about TechStars Boulder at the start some 2.5
years ago now (I live in Denver), they didn't like the sound of it, didn't
like having to give away equity for 'nothing in return'. Now, 2+ years later,
the one remaining Biz partner wanted to do TechStars, is leaving his day job
to put everything into this. I told him I simply couldn't take the time off to
do it now, that time had past, I have a new fulltime job I love and there is
no way I'd jeopardize it for our startup now (turns out he applied and we were
turned down anyway, probably for the best).

Unfortunately sometimes you just have the wrong partner(s), it's as simply as
that. Why not get a full-time job and go into maintenance mode ont the
startup? That's basically what I finally did. I told my remaining partner I
can't live like this anymore, barely scraping by and that I was going to get a
fulltime job and commit to them 100%. I will still fix bugs but as far as new
features go, I simply tell him I won't add anything until he signs up 10 new
accounts and pays me for my time now. Hasn't happened yet and he's been trying
for about 6 months now focused on the business trying to sell accounts.

Be honest with them and tell them you can't live like this any more, you've
kept your end of the deal, they are welcome to soldier on but you have your
own responsibilities to take care of. You'll gladly help maintain what has
been built, fix bugs and do what you can outside your normal 9-5 job, but
otherwise you are going to have to focus on what's best for you and your
family. If they are good people they will understand, if they are not, then
you've done all you can and should feel fine with moving on and doing what you
need to do.

------
uahal
I feel for you. I've been on the "idiot" side before but I understand where
you're coming from. A couple things I'd have you do:

\- Don't take advice from people who know very little and have no context.

\- Clarify your ownership position in the company. "Can you explain my equity
thing to me again?" Know what you own now. Know what you're entitled to in the
future. If you already know this information, you can skip this step.

\- Think of a person you completely trust and whose intellect you fully
respect. Let's call them X. Sit down on your own and write X a letter that
outlines the whole situation.

Address at least the following:

a) What you want out of the deal b) What you think it'll take to make the deal
successful c) Conditions under which you're willing to keep at it d) Whether
or not you want to keep going forward with this thing e) All the other
important things that you know.

Make it a good letter. Spend real time on this letter. Something around 1,000
words or more.

Don't send letter. Save letter. Go to sleep.

\- Next day (after you've slept and eaten), revise your letter. Really go
through it and make it say what you want it to say. Take out that part that's
irrelevant. Add the section about the thing you forgot.

Don't send letter. Save letter. Go to sleep.

\- Next day, read letter. Revise it again if you need to.

Twist: The letter isn't for X. It's for you.

\- At this point, you've built a clear inventory of what you own in the
business and what you think needs to happen in order for it to work and for
you to stay.

My guess is that you'll then know what you need to do. That might mean sit
down and talk with the idiots. It might mean that you need to leave asap. It
might mean an N day ultimatum. It might mean something else.

But whatever it means, it will have come from you.

Also, read this. I have it on the mirror in my bathroom.

<http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~gongsu/desiderata_textonly.html>

You are going to live through this experience. You will benefit from the
lessons you've learned in this experience. This, too, shall pass.

Good luck, fellow traveler.

~~~
vytasgd
just +1 for the desiderata

------
stevewilhelm
Couple points:

You need to determine if the product/idea is actually viable and the problem
is in fact that the other founders are failing to execute, or the is is
something inherently flawed with the business model. Have some entrepreneurs
or VCs you trust and respect review the business and give you their opinion.

If the problem is the other founders, you could start talking with them about
bringing on someone to turn the company around or about selling the company to
someone else.

If the problem is the idea/product/business model, you should move on ASAP.

In either case, if there is some useful technology that can be repurposed for
another idea/business, make sure you get a unlimited license or if the company
folds, take ownership the IP assets as back unpaid salary.

Make sure you get the transfer of IP in writing, ideally reviewed by a lawyer.
If you do build something successful with the IP, you don't want "the idiots"
coming around and claiming they own part of it.

------
argonaut
Everyone else has thoroughly covered the sunk costs and salary perspectives.

One thing I noticed in your post that I would strongly caution against:
reading too much into VC rejection. I think you're placing too much faith into
the VC's arguments and are being a little too sensitive to rejection. VC's are
routinely wrong or misguided, and the vast majority of VCs do not deliver
returns beyond that of the broader stock market.

~~~
reeses
Our first VC meetings were practice runs and a source of free high-value
consulting. The very first one couldn't understand our product, so we knew we
needed to edit. The second was excited but said we were in a great position to
bootstrap. The third agreed and had some great suggestions that we took to
heart.

We didn't need money at the time so it was not the same as your situation, but
VC will often just not click with a company. It is actually a lot like dating
in that they are trying to read the people and what they're saying and
projecting it out over the course of the relationship.

They all came back, unsolicited, in 9 to 16 months, but by then we had reached
a point where we were cash-flow positive and working with pilot customers to
refine the product for launch.

VC will rarely say no directly because things can change at any time.

NB: This is Silly Valley, where VC are thick on the ground.

------
calinet6
"I think my co-founders are idiots, that they fouled up their side of the
deal, but I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail
now."

This is the feeling! I remember this.

Let me be extremely clear here: _forget about your time investment._ It does
not matter. If you don't believe in the company and especially in your
business partners, leave NOW. Each day you stay is delaying the next big step
in your life that will get you to a better place and a happier life.

I've been there. Did it for years with the wrong partner because I didn't
trust my gut and leave early on. I should have. I left after 5 years,
abandoned all that work, and I've never made a better decision in my life.

Startups are hard, and they do have their ups and downs, but that is not how a
startup is supposed to feel. Get out now.

~~~
timsco
Here here. This is good advice. Get out.

When you're happy, you won't regret walking away even if you left a little bit
of money left on the table.

------
DoubleMalt
There is one important rule all good poker players must learn:

It is never too late to fold.

Whatever your investment was, consider it lost. The experiences you gathered
getting the stuff done are all you gained and nobody can take that away.

An ultimatum might give you the opportunity to negotiate rights to the assets
you created during your work (If there is no formal incorporation yet you
might own the stuff anyway).

I'm sure you'll find something worth your energy! Good Luck!

------
foxylad
Honestly, the biggest asset I can see from your message is your girlfriend.
Spend the next few days working on an awesome proposal, instead of working for
people you don't respect any more.

The startup? Almost irrelevant, in comparison. When you look back on this in
ten years, you'll agree with me!

After you've proposed, sit down with your fiancée (an awesome proposal is one
where she can't say no!) and ask her what she honestly thinks of the business.
Women are far better judges of these things than men - particularly men who
are building the thing in question. If she doesn't think it's compelling,
simply tell the other guys you are getting married and need a steady job, so
you're leaving. You've learned a lot (about finding good co-founders, as well
as al the tech stuff) and are a more valuable person because of it, so take
that as your payment.

If she thinks the business is a great idea, things get more complicated. My
suggestion would be leave, find a better co-founder, and start over. Or you
could try to negotiate with the other guys for some up front payment and
changes to the way they do things.

~~~
didip
Hm, I'm not sure... proposing when money is dry? Wouldn't that trading one
problem with another?

------
webwright
you said three things that I think are core to the issue.

1) You don't believe in the business model. Is that fixable? Are your co-
founders similarly doubtful?

2) "I think my co-founders are idiots." If you actually believe that, quit.
Right now.

3) "I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now." You
should Google "sunk cost fallacy". If you buy stock in a company and it starts
to tank, you should evaluate whether that stock with this new information is
still the BEST place for your money. MANY investors don't do this-- instead,
they get emotional and refuse to take a loss on a stock, hoping against hope
that it'll bounce back. They should be saying, "with the information I have
now, would I recommend that a friend buy the stock right now?". How much time
you've invested should have NO BEARING on what you choose to do moving
forward.

For your happiness, wealth, or whatever other goals you have, is this company
the best way to be spending your time? If you could pretend that you weren't
working with these guys and they approached you to be a co-founder RIGHT NOW,
would you take the gig?

------
zfran
Take a "founder leave of absence" and start doing consulting. Tell them that
as soon as they raise money you're back on (they probably won't).

------
mcmc
I really feel for you situation, and I would love to help by chatting. I've
been involved in many different startups, from working with friends on no
salary, to our current $12 mm series-A endeavor. I've seen tons of startups
rise and fall, all sorts, and I think I may be able to lend some advice or
just be a sounding board.

Please send me an email if you're interested: carter@gameclosure.com.

------
josephlord
Can you make an amicable exit with some rights to the code? Seeing as you
haven't been properly paid the copyrights or even the non-exclusive rights to
it could be a fair exit and you say that you are proud of the technical
solution. It's only relly worth it if you can see a business in it though or
can pivot the work you have done.

It sounds like you have had an expensive lesson in picking partners, try to
exit as cheaply as possible where the costs factored in include family
relationships as well as your time. Others may also see the end but not want
to be the one to call it but it is worth having a story for what you will do
instead.

As others say forget about the sunk costs just optimise for the current
situation and the future.

------
CapitalistCartr
Start applying for a job now. Immediately. While you are negotiating, find
options. You'll be glad you did.

~~~
wyck
^This, there is nothing stopping you from looking for a greener pasture while
still involved, when it arrives jump off the fence instead of sitting on it.

------
zimbatm
Everyone here can only judge your situation through your description of the
situation and all the bias that comes from it.

From what I read, the rejection of a single VC meeting seems to have put you
down. This is normal. Meeting 10-20 VCs before getting an investment is not
unusual.

People here have nothing to loose so just take your time before shutting
everything down.

~~~
Suitov
Upvoted, even though I'm in the "get out!" brigade. It's hard for us to have
perspective and we'll never have the full story.

All the same, a lot of us have experience falling prey to a sunk cost
fallacy/gambler's fallacy situation, and I think anyone advising the OP to
leave based on that has their heart in the right place.

TL;DR: advice from people on the internet is best ingested with a keg or two
of salt.

------
jsun
> I think my co-founders are idiots, that they fouled up their side of the
> deal

If you are a startup founder, which it sounds like you are, and not an early
employee at a startup, then this is unfortunately the wrong attitude to have.
There is no "their side of the deal", you are all committed to making the
business work and you should be prepared to do whatever it takes to make it
work including pushing all your own personal boundaries in order to get shit
done.

In my experience the startups that have performed the best are ones where all
the founders are prepared to roll up their sleeves and do things they have no
experience with if necessary. The ones that fail are the ones that squabble
over who's messing up at "their part of the deal".

Too many times I've seen founders (especially tech founders) sit doe-eyed,
waiting for someone else to set the direction, or raise money, or figure out
the "business model". If this is you then you should look into joining another
startup as an early employee rather than being a founder yourself.

If you objectively believe that your team does not have the skills necessary
to succeed or even move on to the next step then you need to leave. Plain and
simple.

But leave or stay, lose the attitude that certain things are above or beneath
your ability to do, or even worse: "not your job".

------
rocky1138
I've been in this situation before, also with my first startup. Bailing was
the one of the best decisions I've ever made and gave me the emotional
strength to evaluate who I want to keep in my circle of friends/professional
network.

After I left I got a regular job with regular pay to get myself level
financially and emotionally. After another year or so of that, I'm at a
startup again. This time, with much more success.

I'd cut the cord and get out.

------
112percent
I am in an almost identical situation myself and can empathise.

I came to the realisation that

* I no longer enjoy what I am doing * I'm not particularly happy * Going into the office is now a chore * I can't see a future where I am at the moment.

Once I realised all of these things - it took a few months - alarm bells
started going off. I have now started to make steps to change my situation:

* Seen my Lawyer * Written and dispensed my resume * Spoken to friends about jobs.

I'm now much more comfortable, knowing that I can survive without the company
and will probably be much better off without it.

I quite liked the following articles:
[http://westonmcbride.com/blog/2013/05/06/why-i-abandoned-
my-...](http://westonmcbride.com/blog/2013/05/06/why-i-abandoned-my-startup/)
<http://harj.posthaven.com/co-founder-breakups>
[http://jamesmaskell.co.uk/2013/how-to-get-a-job-after-
startu...](http://jamesmaskell.co.uk/2013/how-to-get-a-job-after-startup-
failure/)

------
btrautsc
Man, I've felt your pain. This quote gave my stomach knots:

"I respond half-jokingly that every day is either the best or worst day of my
life, that I've experienced the highest highs and lowest lows of my short
career"...

That is the most accurate depiction of startup life in my experience. Many
times it is unfortunate. Many times it is euphoric. I wrote one of my mentors
an email similar to that very recently.

Lots of people here are giving you advice like you asked - do this, do that.
I'm not wise enough to tell you what to do. I'll only say this, you seem to
love the product you are building, so there is something in this endeavor
worth while. Obviously, you need money to live. You need to eat and have
health insurance. That is your life we're talking about.

The stress is sometimes nearly unbearable, and you feel like you are all alone
when you talk to your "normal" friends. But look at this section, 150+
comments from people who understand the stress, the frustration, the highs &
lows. You're not alone. You can make it.

------
notforreal
(Fake account to protect those involved.)

I was very recently in your position. My advice to you:

Get the f __* out... NOW!

If I had to guess, you were probably never that impressed/excited by your co-
founders to begin with. But you did it because the business-case made sense.
That's what I did, anyways, and it was one of the biggest mistakes I've ever
made.

If you think your co-founders are idiots, then it's over. If your experience
is anything like mine, then not only are these guys not pulling their weight,
but they probably have a lot of half-cocked ideas that you have to fight them
on, they go off doing things that make no business sense, and have made you
feel embarrassed for them (and your company) on more than one occasion.

In my case, I considered leaving my startup at the 15 month mark (and even
before that), but hung around some more trying to make things work with co-
founders who weren't doing their part. I had a very candid talk with them (not
the first one either), laid out the things that needed to happen for me to
keep going within what time frame, and everyone agreed.

Well, I did my part. They didn't. I knew, deep down, that they wouldn't hold
up their end. If they were the type to do their part, they would've done it a
long time ago. Denial is what kept me going for that last push, and it was a
total waste of time and effort.

So I left. The co-founders balked, then got angry, then tried to get me to
come back. I did not waiver. You shouldn't either.

The co-founders got over it. We worked out an agreement. We're still friends
and things are fine. It will be fine for you too.

Now that I'm out, I'm watching their ship sink faster than ever. And I'm so
glad that I'm not on it.

Hope my story helped you in some way. It was therapeutic for me. :) Now, get
yourself out of there!

~~~
notforreal
Also, framing the problem a different way helped me put things in perspective.
"Given what I know now, if I wasn't already a part of this startup, would I
join today?" If the answer is "no", then you know what you have to do.

------
pchristensen
"...I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now."

Unless you feel there's a realistic chance of success within the timeframe
that your personal situation allows, you should bail. Don't let the past trap
your future.

"I've learned more in the last year than I have at any other point in my life,
and I've become a better programmer and designer. I've always said that even
if this doesn't work out, I'll have become a better, more capable professional
in the end. And I feel that I have."

And you no doubt are! I'm not sure where you are, but there are tons of
companies in SF/Silicon Valley with 6-50 employees, VC funding, etc that will
pay relocation and a nice salary for a versatile full-stack developer with
demonstrable skills. There may be a startup in the future, but there's no
shame in using the skills you developed at this startup to get a nice job for
a year or two. The choice isn't between BigCo and no salary frustrationsville.

~~~
jacinda
This is exactly what I wanted to say in response to his penultimate question:

"I can't imagine working for a big corporation again, but should I just give
it up and get a "normal" job for a little while to build up some savings again
before embarking on the next venture?"

There are plenty of small venture-backed startups that will pay you a good
salary if you have the right skills. You just need to find the right fit.

------
jfarmer
If you don't respect your co-founders then you need to either address the
fundamental interpersonal issues or quit. Everything else is an excuse.

If you choose the former, it should start with a frank but non-confrontational
conversation among all of you where you discuss what is and isn't working with
your relationship. Don't overfocus on the business. The day-to-day of a
startup grows from the relationship among the co-founders. That's always at
the root.

For example, if the business model isn't working, why don't you have a
relationship where you can say "Guys, this business model isn't working. We
have to do something different. Let's figure this out."? Over-focusing on the
business will result in a laundry-list conversation when everyone just unloads
their grievances all at once. It's not productive.

If going into the conversation you feel the urge to let your co-founders "have
a piece of your mind" then don't have the conversation. You need to be calm,
in control, and aware of the real source of your own frustrations.

Most likely there's a long series of missed-but-unstated expectations, both
big and small. You have to acknowledge your own responsibility in this
situation, viz., as a co-founder you have a responsibility to bring these up
the second they happen to avoid a "blow up" situation. Yet here you are, in
just such a situation. You're partially responsible for that, whether your co-
founders are actually idiots or not.

You have to be prepared for your co-founders to feel similarly about you.
Avoid the trap of allowing the conversation to become a tit for tat. "You
forgot to publish that blog post." "Yeah, well, you forgot to follow up with a
potential investor!" etc.

It might help to reframe this conversation from one where you're going to tell
them all the things that aren't working to one where you ask for help with the
things you think aren't working. If you don't want your co-founders to be
defensive then you need to be vulnerable -- probably much more vulnerable than
you're comfortable being.

Good luck. Welcome to startups.

------
neurotech1
I've been around these kind of situations. What started as a hackathon
project, where we had 1 bizdev, 1 health tech related person (non-
coder/technical) and me, the programmer. There were a few flaws in the plan,
both conceptual and technical needed to actually turn the concept into viable
product. It seemed like raising VC funding was the "goal" more than creating a
MVP for beta-launch and customer feedback.

My best advice is to be direct, and take care of yourself personally,
especially physical and mental health.

------
tiglionabbit
Everyone seems to be talking about "sunk cost" here. But it seems like you're
working on a product that believe in. Is it possible for you to disrupt the
company's current trajectory and try to get things onto a better course?

If your co-founders are doing things wrong, perhaps you can do some research
into their side of things and figure out how to do things better. Teach them
things, and learn together. Do their jobs for them if you have to. Since they
are family, perhaps they will be easier to persuade?

------
pranavpiyush
Respect is at the center of this issue. If you feel you have been disrespected
(knowingly or unknowingly), you need to bring that up. At the same time, if
you have lost respect, you need to communicate that to the other co-founders.
I wrote a post about communication that talks about this in detail - read
here: [http://www.pranavpiyush.com/communication-for-startup-co-
fou...](http://www.pranavpiyush.com/communication-for-startup-co-founders/)

Either way, communicate! Put it all out there. If, even then, things don't
seem like working out (i.e. the other 2 don't see a problem that needs
solving), then leave.

As for what you do next, don't start a business for the sake of starting a
business. Do it if you have a vision for what the world should look like. If
you believe in the vision strongly enough, nothing can get in the way of you
building the product/company to fulfill it. If not, don't fret. Working for a
corporation is not the end of the world.

Find a place where you will learn something. There's a nice post by Garry Tan
about learning vs. earning. Read it. [http://blog.garrytan.com/lessons-
from-2-5-that-i-wish-i-knew...](http://blog.garrytan.com/lessons-
from-2-5-that-i-wish-i-knew-at-2-4)

------
mattmaroon
I know why you wrote it. You know what you should do, but you are on the fence
about it, or maybe don't want to, and you want us to tell you what you already
know.

------
nnq
> with two _very non-technical_ [!] _family members_ [!] (blue-collar
> "businessy guys")

There are two big warning sign that things will go wrong in the first
paragraph: if you end up doing business with family members, only do so if:
(1) you really value their technical skills or (2) if they have real
objectively proven business skills and proven ability to raise money or
finance from their pockets or (3) if you've done business with them before and
it worked out well for you.

...if neither (1), (2) or (3) is the case, _stay tf away from any business
with family members_ because, when shit hits the fan (and in the OP's case it
has!), you will not be able to do what you have to do in order to save either
the business or your professional life. But again, even if one of the three
points is valid for you, _don't start an IT businesses with family members_ \-
a corner-shop restaurant, a local racketeering mob... maybe... but not in this
field unless they also have good technical skill (you already have enough
tension between technical and non-technical cofounders in a regular startup,
you don't want to put a potential propane tank on the campfire too).

------
apalmblad
I notice no mention of sales. Are your cofounders able to sell the product, if
raising investment is not going well?

Have you actually launched? Are you close to launch? Real sales and real
feedback from real customers is really the only way to validate what you're
doing. A year is a long time to build something without real customers - if
you don't have customers who believe in the product, there's no reason you
should either.

------
anupshinde
Don't get emotional about sunk costs - It happens because we are all human,
but will not benefit you.

Take a small break - Focus on the present parameters, analyze all your options
(other than giving up), give it a fresh look. One can make very bad decisions
when emotionally compromised.

Be honest with your co-founders, and it seems that you haven't been speaking
to them candidly.

Ask for a salary and set a deadline for them and for yourself. Beyond that
just leave. I would not expect a market-linked salary at a startup , but I
would definitely not like to work for free or with a salary that makes me
struggle with my basic financial requirement.

Remember, you made an investment - in terms of time and effort - Calculate the
financial value of the time you spent (like what you would have got in an
average job otherwise). Check if you are getting fair enough equity - for all
your investment

You feel like "giving up", but if you have to do that, do it gracefully - give
it very detailed attention, Work out all options in a comfortable timeline -
and may be then if still doesnt look good - leave.

Believe me, "i gave up" will stay with you for your lifetime, if you din't try
all the other options before that.

------
x7r4wur57
The "sunk costs" situation is actually a little more complex than it might
seem at first:

It looks like you have invested time and money in this opportunity and you ask
yourself if it is likely to pay off. The intuition to stick to it even if
there are hard times does actually have a sensible foundation: If the business
took off in a couple of months without you being part of it, you would
probably regret having left it.

So what you really want to evaluate is the likelihood of the business taking
off within a timeframe that's tolerable for you. Startups have the property
that not all progress is immediately rewarded. Some companies have to go
through tough times until they hit gold. You now have to decide whether you
think you have such a company or not.

As you obviously have more knowledge about your own situation/company than I
do I can't assist you directly in that decision. However, I remember reading a
rule of thumb that if a startup does not have any significant traction (users
or customers) 1.5 to 2 years after its foundation it is likely that there is
something wrong with the business or product. I think this may have some truth
in it.

------
fxtentacle
"I believe in our product, but I don't believe in our business model." Then
tell your business partners that THEY need to fix the business models so THEY
can afford to pay YOU.

"I think my co-founders are idiots, that they fouled up their side of the
deal," Ask them to give up some of their equity so that you can use it to
motivate a replacement candidate.

"but I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now."
Ouch, you're fucked. NEVER EVER let past mistakes ruin your future.

How about making a list of all the things you learned during this venture and
a second list of all the things you can do in the future if you sever ties
now. That way, if someone asks you in the future, you can explain on a
positive note why it was the right thing to go.

However, all of these business projects also involve a lot of luck: I was once
working on and off on a project for 3 years and gradually losing faith in the
business model. And then all of a sudden, the project was reviewed without my
knowledge by a local newspaper. We got a huge spike in traffic, sales started
to explode and throughout one week, i was more than rewarded for all the hard
work.

------
rgbrenner
After 15 months, you should be able to evaluate where you are. Have you
launched yet? If the answer is no, then you've likely let the project spiral
out of control. After 15 months, if you don't have what you consider an MVP,
then you need to stop, and take a hard look at what is really needed and not.
I don't know what you're developing, but it's probably time to strip out any
half-developed features, and release what is left as a product.

If you have launched, then you need to have a talk with your other founders.
Not about raising money (because that may never come).. but about the
financial goals of the company; revenue growth rate; profit; etc, etc, etc. At
what point are you going to meet those targets? At what point will there be
money for a paycheck?

If the only financial goals you guys have is to raise cash for a project that
will never pull in a dime, then forget it.. it's not a business.. it's a toy.
Businesses exist to make money. You should have a solid plan for how you're
going to do that from the very beginning.

------
orangethirty
I know how you feel. Been there, done that. Let me say that its not your
fault. You went in with the best interest in succeeding, but things went
south. Your focus now should be on you. Not the business, but you. You don't
owe them anything. Its time you focused on what is best for you. Its obvious
you want to quit. Do so. Whatever happens, cannot be worse than what you are
going through right now. Don't trap yourself into thinking about what if the
company succeeds after you leave. Its not worth it. You can't continue living
like this, in hopes of a better future. Truth is, the company has a slim
chance of succeeding. And without you, it has less of a chance. So quit. Move
on. Get your health back in order, and get a well paying job as a programmer.
(look for the hiring thread on HN, or at indeed.com). Remember, money is
nothing without health. You must be mentally healthy in order to be able to
enjoy it. If anything, just shoot me an email. I will gladly listen to you.
Best wishes.

------
vytasgd
I empathize. (With everything except the cofounders' idiocy, I absolutely love
mine) I was brought in with my brother(MBA), we've been working on our web app
for almost 10 months, and it's grown and morphed and changed more than we
could have predicted. It's the first startup for any of us. The lack of salary
is tough, particularly in silicon valley... but the ups and downs, the "best
day or worst day of my life" that happens over and over, is a big part of the
excitement of a startup (and also what wears me down the most). We are trying
to figure out our future, and if our venture is something we can push on a
little more for or if we should be getting jobs where we can work on our stuff
on the side until it gains enough traction to raise capital or starts
generating strong enough revenues. I'd be interested to know what you end up
doing and if you ultimately have any advice... pm me when you make the
decision if you feel so inclined.

------
greatergoodguy
I am making a some assumptions in this advice I'm giving you. You should get
out, I understand you have invested the time and effort. But if they can't
carry their weight, there is a lot of potential risk for the future.

"I think my co-founders are idiots". What are your expectations of them for
the future. Do you see them becoming geniuses? Staying in with the
expectations that a bad player will become a good player is an insane risk for
you.

If this start-up becomes big, how stake in the company are divided will become
a huge pain point. They are going to want more than they deserve. I've been
around plenty of people who are all talk and heard many horror stories. I'm
fortunate not to be burned but I've made a strong effort to surrounded myself
with the right people. I'm telling you this to minimize mistakes that may take
a huge portion of your time. Time is the most valuable thing you have so spend
it on projects and people that are worth it.

------
yason
This is perfectly normal feeling and reaction: you just have an exceptionally
long nerve. Many people would've quit from the dysfunctional culture much
earlier.

You either own enough of the company so that you can decide to do things your
way or you start demanding paychecks.

You make it or you break it, and when you're no longer so sure then it's the
latter.

------
dkrich
28\. That's the number of times you used the word "I" in that diatribe.

I think your biggest problem is that you are clearly focused on your troubles,
your finances, your work on the product.

To succeed you're going to have to focus on the needs of your potential
customers which, experience tells me, is most difficult to do when you are in
a difficult situation. If you have a long enough runway, I would suggest
taking a few days off, then spending some time away from your cofounders and
the computer and talk to potential customers. Do that for at least an entire
week. It will completely change your perspective.

If your runway isn't long enough, get a job and work on this on the side.
There are no shortage of ideas and regardless of what others tell you there
_will_ be another opportunity to pursue a startup and chances are you will be
a lot wiser about it the next go-round.

------
smalldaddy
Play this thought experiment in your head. Imagine: 1\. you have not been
involved in this company 2\. you are approached to take over in the technical
role given where it is

What are your thoughts? Are you interested in participating.

It's a typical "sunk cost" decision. From the tone of your note I would guess
you would answer you should leave.

------
throwaway1980
> I believe in our product, but I don't believe in our business model.

This sounds like you'd be okay if the business model was different. Tell them
that either the business model changes or you're leaving. Then it's up to them
whether you leave. You may or may not be able to negotiate interpersonal
problems.

------
TallGuyShort
>> I've invested too much time and energy to bail now

Economics would tell you to ignore sunk costs. I sympathize with your
emotional attachment to this project and like you, I would feel like I was
failing if I "gave up" on the last 15 months. But that isn't what you're doing
- you're just facing facts. If you can no longer make ends meet, you either
need take a salary, or leave. Be honest with your co-founders: remind them
that you were willing to take a huge gamble on the business and that you've
gone 15 months without a salary. Give them an ultimatum: either they make it
possible for you to get a salary now, or you go on your way. This way it's not
a unilateral decision to leave, and if it's possible for you to stay, you get
that chance.

Again, I sympathize with your situation and I wish you the best of luck!

------
artagnon
Did you think that the non-tech people you picked would be great co-founders
at the time (whom you now consider idiots)? Or did you think that they'd be
useful in getting funding (which they failed to do anyway)?

You say that you've become a better programmer, and are proud of your product.
It's the business model that stinks, right? If product is all you care about,
why aren't you working on an open source project? You'll constantly get
developer reviews and user feedback and can build a truly fantastic product.
If business model/ funding is secondary ("let's just pull in a couple of
idiots who'll take care of it for me"), you really shouldn't be starting up.

Okay, you're already here and want to know what to do now. Cut your losses and
get out. Now. Get your shit together and figure out what you want to do.

------
geophile
"I think my co-founders are idiots, that they fouled up their side of the
deal, but I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail
now."

If they are idiots, then the only rational choice is to cut your losses. The
size of your investment has zero impact on their ability to turn things
around.

------
churreiro
You have lost faith in your business model, this sounds like a common problem
with many startups. Trying to build a startup (that is indeed a company) with
a weak business model or inexistent and have faith to raise enough funds to
survive for long.

You had bad luck and I surely do not know all the info but if you do not trust
the monetization model it might be because it was never clear from the
beginning, and do not forget, startups are companies and companies make money.

If you feel so frustrated just jump form the ship before it sinks, i have shut
down startups because i didn't feel we would be able to make money (luckily we
were always very early stage).

Saving yourself is always better than collective suicide.

------
gwbas1c
I've been in a similar situation.

Go be an employee at a startup that's a real business. A real business is a
business that's established enough to pay you a fair salary and benefits.

It should be a job that you enjoy, and similar enough to what you're working
on now that you can apply your experience. The people in charge should be
businessmen who understand that cash needs to flow in order for this to be a
real business.

At this point, you've worked with clowns long enough to know how to weed them
out. During your job search, a lot of clowns will try to justify not paying
you a decent salary. You've already been there, and know that a business that
can't pay you isn't a real business.

------
oelmekki
Have you considered freelancing ? It may provides a salary, with enough free
time to keep going on the project without having to sacrifice your free time.
You may also learn from it the basic of business, which can help understand or
argue with your cofounders.

This would send a clear message to them, too : your project is not my main one
anymore because I can't get a living from it, and you're about to loose me.

You can then put a stop on new features building and only focus on bug fixing,
until actual money is raised.

If they finally succeed, you can easily stop freelancing. And if they don't,
you will have made contacts that make it easier to find a new job not on the
corporate side.

------
adrr
Do the other cofounders also not take salaries and are in the same boat you
are in?

------
noodle
Try and fix the problems yourself. If the problems are fixable, I'm sure you
have insight into how to fix them. There's obviously something wrong with the
situation.

If you can't fix the problems, leave. Don't fall into a sunken cost fallacy.
Sometimes losing time and/or money is just a part of doing business. You took
a risk. Risk is a part of life. But you should also learn to recognize when to
cut losses and move on. You should sit down, decide upon what it will take for
you to leave the company, and stick to the decision if it comes to pass.

------
pseut
I don't have any first hand experience with your issue, so take what I say
with that in mind.

Looking ahead, you don't like your plan or your partners. I don't know how
much of the IP is yours legally, but you can try to find a new partner or work
on your own if you strongly believe in the product.

If you want to quit and don't want a "normal" job, consider going back to
school. You might be able to quickly patch some holes in your education and
meet potential cofounders for new projects.

One quote I like: "when all else is lost, the future remains." Good luck!

------
robomartin
Move on. Move on. Move on. Move on.

Move. On!

Your founders aren't necessarily idiots. Sometimes businesses fail due to a
myriad of other issues, including market timing, product-market-fit and more.

This one failed. That's OK.

Time to move to greener pastures. No, you are not abandoning anyone. This
business is dead. Unless a pile of cash shows-up and a major pivot happens it
is likely not to survive. I've seen businesses implode even after getting
piles of cash thrown at them. Money doesn't magically fix it.

Go find something that appeals to you and make some money.

------
dacilselig
Whenever in doubt of what to do always suggest to break the problem down. You
are going through a lot right now so it's difficult to keep a clear head when
making a decision. Take the time to go through the pro and con of leaving or
staying and then see which one is more important to you. Also consider that
psychologically when humans invest a Lot of time and energy in anything it is
difficult to let go (from relationships to startup). So don't allow it to be
the only reason to stay.

------
hobs
This may be among the most stressful times in your life up to this point. I
would take almost all the advice in the thread, but just look at it from an
outsiders perspective, and while that may not calm you, know that it will BE
you soon enough. The stressful times seem terrible, but as you stated, you
learned a ton.

I have had my share of rueful experiences on the job or off, and the anxiety
and stress regarding it slip away when you start making decisions and GETTING
OUT OF THERE!

------
knodi
2 thing

1) If this is your life and soul then find a job to support your self and keep
working on this startup. Words like 'I can't imagine working for a big corp'
are not going to help you at anytime in your life. You work to make your
dreams come true.

2) You haven't been paid in 15 months, so what? Your co-founders haven't
either. It's been 15months you should have already launched your product. It
takes a team to get to where you want to go, stop blaming and start doing.

------
Clanan
You're a part of a business that's failing. Don't get sucked into the
dangerous mentality that what you're doing is something -more- than that -
it's not. Startups are just small businesses. If yours is failing, then make a
business decision and get out. What you've done up to this point is a Sunk
Cost. You can't get it back, so let it go. Your business isn't working and the
co-owners can't hack it. So what are you still doing there?

------
readme
> but I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now.

Sunken cost principle. Basic psychology is keeping you in a place you
shouldn't be. Every day you'll have invested more,and it will only exacerbrate
the issue. You said you don't like your cofounders. That should be a huge red
flag right there.

If you can't carry on without them, you should find yourself a nice job and
start plotting your next (successful) startup while you save.

------
alexdowad
I don't know what to do about your startup dilemma. It would have been wise to
set a deadline (and communicate that to your partners) at the very beginning;
hopefully you can do that next time. If you do leave, you said you "don't want
to work for a big corporation again": if you'd prefer to consult for private
clients, I've found oDesk to be a great place to find them. Just be selective
in which jobs you bid on.

------
kevando
Highest highs, lowest lows... Best day, worst day. Failing start up or giant
corporation...

Try to find some balance, dude. Go running or do some yoga or try to eat
better.

------
nrivadeneira
To use some poker wisdom, don't get pot-committed. The time you've invested
thus far is a sunk cost that you're not getting back regardless of how much
longer you stay on. At this point in time you need to assess the probability
of future success and base your decision to stay purely on that. If you
believe there is no benefit to be had by staying there, you need to get out
now before you incur more 'losses'.

------
kabanossen
Read this (at least the first five or six chapters, it's a quick read):

[http://www.scribd.com/doc/4757293/Crunch-
Pointthe-21-Secrets...](http://www.scribd.com/doc/4757293/Crunch-
Pointthe-21-Secrets-to-Succeeding-When-it-Matters-MostBrian-Tracy)

I don't really like the author but this book has some useful insights when you
are caught in a situation like yours. Hope it helps.

Rikard

------
Suitov
Get out. Your co-founders sound like hucksters and you're in the grip of the
gambler's fallacy. The longer you wait the worse the inertia and eventual pain
will be. Take the hit, walk away and make use of the positive things that came
out of this: your skills, and the experience that will help you not get fooled
again.

------
SandersAK
You gotta bail if you don't have faith in your co-founders. It's really the
only thing that matters at this stage.

------
beachstartup
> I've invested too much time and energy to bail now.

this is all in your head and they're using it to keep leverage over you.

------
wfunction
> I think my co-founders are idiots, that they fouled up their side of the
> deal

Well, obviously they aren't, otherwise you wouldn't have founded the company
with them right?

You can't call someone an idiot just because he's failing, or you'll be called
an idiot yourself when you fail, too. Get rid of that notion.

------
scott_w
This isn't a business - it's three guys floundering around with no idea what
you're doing. Walk away now.

That sounds harsh, but it's the truth and you've recognised it yourself.
Forget your investment; it's gone and it isn't coming back no matter how hard
you try.

------
seivan
Never ever ever EVER take non-science/engineer as co-founders. EVER. I'm
actually inclined to say not to hire either until you're profitable. Unless
it's necessary by evil, like lawyers.

And by non-science, also include cultural science or political science.

~~~
Udo
You're being downvoted but I can definitely see where you're coming from. In
the case of the OP, those two family member seem to actually exploit him
pretty heavily, or at least they're not placing any actual value on him. I
think a case could be made that non-technical co-founders are often prone to
this kind of behavior, while the technical founder is slaving away and being
called "just our IT guy". For most online startups, tech is actually an
integral part of the execution, not something tedious that needs to be tacked
on by some exchangeable and exploitable programmer.

I remember when we founded our first startup, it was three guys: the
programmer (me), the business guy (a friend of mine), and our "account man"
(an acquaintance of ours) - all equal shareholders. Shortly after founding,
there was a discussion about having company cars. The two business guys wanted
BMWs, and I was to get some cheap Japanese mini car. When I asked how they
came to that idea, they explained that I was only the programmer and I could
get by with basically nothing, whereas they insisted they needed BMWs for
their role in the company. They also said, and I kid you not, that they were
from wealthy families and I was not, so it seemed reasonable to them that
everybody needed to keep their rightful place. Needless to say, I shot this
down and shortly afterwards, the account guy left. It was for the best. Who
knows what would have happened if I had let them get away with this.

Self-entitled, hypocritical, non-technical entrepreneurs. There are probably a
lot of good people with non-technical qualifications out there, but it's easy
to suddenly find yourself working with the bad ones.

~~~
dsuth
That's a bad experience, but it could easily go the other way, eg. a technical
person taking advantage of a non-technical founder. The key is trust,
regardless of the personalities involved. Trust, but validate as the saying
goes.

------
wellboy
Hey, these guys can help you :) <http://www.startupsanonymo.us/>

Had a chat to them, they've talked with several hundred startup founders now I
assume. Great stuff, someone fund this please btw? :)

------
photorized
Sorry if I missed this - is this business generating any revenue? what's VC
money for?

------
namank
Leave now. Get a 9-5 for at least the next 6 months, which should give you
enough time to get to back in the real world. Then, the world is at your
keyboard!

If you don't have an IP clause in the contract, take the IP with you.

------
some1else
Stay strong. But quit if you have to. There are some hints in other answers on
how to decide if it's worth staying.

Is it possible to go at this solo, focus the product on the consumer, and do
some customer development?

Good luck.

------
mnbvcxza
> I think my co-founders are idiots, that they fouled up their side of the
> deal, but I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail
> now.

Don't throw good money after bad money.

------
rbanffy
> but I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now.

This is dangerous thinking. It's never too late to cut your losses. If you are
sure this will not work, just move on.

------
joshuagross
Sunk costs are sunk costs, and opportunity cost is very real. Don't sink more
into it if you don't believe in the future of the product AND the team AND the
company as a whole.

------
chris_wot
Oh my gosh. I worked fo a startup, the guy ended up owing me AUD$17,000 and
has refused to pay it.

Just cut your losses. The blue collar business people are lying to you. Just
get out!

~~~
chris_wot
Wow, voted down? That's really what happened to me. If you haven't been paid,
and they are constantly saying they will, then get out. They really aren't
telling you the truth. You just have to cut your losses!

------
billnguyen
Don't be dragged down by the weight of your past decisions. Do what you need
to be happy tomorrow. And from your post its pretty obvious to me what that
would be.

------
zoner
Was the lesson learned? Never work a single minute for free.

------
peripetylabs
You can always put the idea on hold for a while, and find regular work until
you decide to go back to it. The work you put into it so far isn't going
anywhere.

------
frostli
If you no longer believe in this idea, let it go. Find a job with income and
relax for a while till you are ready for the next adventure!

------
didip
What if you also get consulting/full time job at the same time? You can always
turn the startup part-time if it doesn't pay the bill.

------
hdragomir
Get out now!

Even if you guys do make it, your environment is poisonous to you now.

Get an income. Take a vacation with your girlfriend as soon as you can.

------
Nursie
After 15 months... shouldn't the company have some income?

Raising VC capital seems to me like a bad thing to rely on.

------
bifrost
Its never too late to change or fix a bad decision. Sounds like its time to
go.

------
orik
Would you be able to take your code and get a new co-founder and re-launch?

------
taigeair
Seems like the consensus is to quit.

------
nbevans
I totally relate to this story. I was in an identical position just over a
year ago.

I spent 6 years co-founding a startup (though because of my age I was never
recognised as a founder). I put so many hours into the software, evenings and
even some weekends. The codebase was almost a work of art, built for the long
term. And the business would have scaled up with the system I had built.

The directors however were clueless. For 2 years they didn't have a clue how
to sell the product I have built. Even though it was clear as day to me how to
take it to the market we were targeting. Eventually they cracked it and we
started selling lots and, at the time I left, the firm was doing £1mil in
revenue. It's probably a third higher by now.

It was my first job out of Uni. and in hindsight I was a bit naive. Though not
entirely naive as I remember having many thoughts through the years thinking
that things "didn't feel quite right". Something was off. I was putting in all
this work to build an awesome product. And the directors/sales guys were
putting in only a fraction of the effort, and always far away from hitting any
high notes.

I learnt that one of the directors was siphoning out money of the firm into
one of his other companies, through dodgy service contracts between the two.
It seemed every month or two he'd start saying we're struggling to pay the
bills even though we'd just made £60k that month on new customer sales alone.
This was a 4 employee company making 60g's most months and it was just so
obvious all was not as it seemed on the books. I once calculated the firm was
making a clear £300k profit and yet I never saw a single penny of that through
a dividend. Not even as a bonus.

Eventually I realised I could not stay there any more, despite having a small
shareholding. I told them a year before I left that unless something big
changes in the way things are run then I shall be leaving. Possibly a stupid
move in hindsight as this pretty much put the nail in the coffin of my
relationship with them and of course I didn't see any salary rise that year,
not even inflationary.

I left on good'ish terms, even if one of the directors started an e-mail
argument (a "see you in court" type affair) with me a few weeks later accusing
me (falsely) of secretly starting up a rival company. Ludicrous.

I'm still recovering mentally from the whole experience. Obviously what I've
shared here is barely a 5% of what went on. Some day I'll write an epic blog
post about it I'm sure. I certainly went through some dark periods but I'm on
the mend now and have learnt to channel it in such a way that I learn from it
and to make me better equiped for the next time I do a startup.

The way I see it now is, those 6 years at this startup weren't a complete
loss. Sure I didn't get to cash out my shareholding (though maybe some day I
will, as the firm is still successful thanks to the product I built). But I
was living at home and taking home £40k which is a lot for someone the age
that I was. I saved pretty much 85% of my money and ended up with a huge
deposit to put down on a London apartment. I moved to London early last year
and have moved on with my life.

I would encourage the OP to break free. Don't take a month off or anything as
that will only make you feel worse. The best thing you can do is get back on
the horse, get a new job, maybe even move town/city if you have to. You need
to press the gas pedal on your life for at least 6 months, that's what I did,
to help you move on and forget. The worst thing you can do is quit the job and
let off the gas pedal. That could have dire consequences for your mental
health.

Hope this helps.

~~~
beering
Wow, it sounds like you were outright exploited, while the OP merely has
incompetent but non-malicious co-founders. Did you not have a lawyer?

------
imsofuture
Quit.

------
bhanks
cut bait

------
michaelochurch
Here's the best strategy at this point. Talk to the VCs. _Thank them_ for
sharing their opinions. They did a good thing that a lot of investors don't
do: they gave you an actual rejection, rather than wasting your time with "we
just need more information" and indefinite deferral. Knowing nothing about
your situation, it still sounds like you ended up meeting some good-apple VCs.
Reach out to them and ask if there are any open positions in their portfolio
companies that might give you the skills to create a more viable business in
the future.

Don't let your co-founders know that you're doing this. They probably see
those VCs (for rejecting them) as an enemy. They are, of course, the opposite.
They did a really good thing by pushing you away from a bad idea. Not everyone
in that world has the courage to reject someone (as opposed to delaying
indefinitely, which has the same effect but is less honest). You should reach
out to them for general career advice and see what happens.

Regardless of whether the VCs help you, it's time to wrap up your startup. Do
any documentation work that's needed, get your specific equity amounts _in
writing_ (founders will often get resentful and try to steal your equity if
you don't, and you won't get much sympathy from the courts if it's just a
verbal agreement; that means _you_ fucked up). Try to leave on good terms so
you can keep a good reference, but don't hold high expectations because
usually a startup breakup causes one side or the other to burn the bridge
outright.

Good luck! This is not an easy thing to do. When you leave as a founder, it
feels like defeat-- it's not just changing jobs, but it feels like you're
admitting that you don't belong in charge. You can't let that get to you. You
made some bad choices-- it sounds like your co-founders were not made of the
right stuff-- but you've learned a lot, and now it's time to recover.

If you can get consulting work or a really good salary job (i.e. one that will
improve your career, not waste your time) then that is the best way to move
forward. I wouldn't recommend trying another startup for a few years. Startup
failure is really hard to recover from; you need time and a low-stress
environment.

~~~
mikekij
I actually strongly (but respectfully) disagree with the advice about asking
the VC for a position at a portfolio company.

VCs all know each other. If a startup's technical founder goes to a particular
VC to let them know they're thinking of bailing, every other VC in the world
(effectively) will have access to this information, and that company will
never be able to raise funding.

If you're really committed to leaving (which is fine), I would cut ties with
the company first, then start asking around. At least that way you don't leave
the other founders in a weird limbo state where they effectively can't raise
money.

Tell the other founders why you're leaving, and offer to introduce them to
other technical people that may be interested in a consulting engagement /
employment when they raise money.

I do, however, agree with the part about getting the paperwork in order. If
they are successful in raising money after you leave, the other founders and
future investors will likely do everything in their power to dilute your
equity disproportionately. It would be worth the $500-$750 to talk to a lawyer
and make sure all of your ducks are in a row.

~~~
crapshoot101
This isn't true. There's plenty of information asymmetry in the VC world.

------
foneybaloney1
(Bogus account to protect innocent & guilty)

Alright homey, been in nearly your exact shoes- echoing the remarks of others
here's what you do: OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT

You've been sold a bill of goods and it hasn't delivered, these startup
ventures in some ways are "supposed" to hurt a bit but not like this. Get out
yesterday and be firm with your decision.

It is soooo much easier said than done (esp on an internet forum) but here's a
coping mechanism: 1) remember you absolutely _do not_ need to line up another
gig in order to leave this one- this sounds like a loser/sucker bet and you
can fall back on side gigs; 2)The "family" aspect makes things tricky but
luckily you can work or not work wherever you damn please.

The crucial thing is to stop the hemorrhaging ASAP, get the hell out pronto.

Caveat: Even if they come up with a way to pay you a BS-y salary, without
knowing the specifics of this situation, from what you describe I still say
it's time to hit the road and get on with your life and other ventures.

------
enoptix
Is this anonymous copy-and-paste medium how people start to deal with their
problems now? What happened to just talking to people or making tough
decisions? I've seen more of these posts in the last year than I have in my
entire time on HN.

I'm sorry you are having a tough time but you need to either 1) have a hard
talk with your co-founders about your business model. present facts. make your
case. they will listen.

or

2) if they dont, walk away and start something new. you mention you are a few
years out of college. you could also go take all the technical experience you
have gained over the last year and get another job. Make a decision on your
own.

But really, the notion that a bunch of internet strangers will be able to give
you some miracle advice is absurd.

~~~
Cyclone_
I would agree, talking with the co-founders is the best route to go. Come up
with good examples and/or comparisons for why you think the business model
won't be a success but also propose a solution to what route you think the
business should go.

~~~
ArekDymalski
Exactly. That's something you didn't mention in your story, and it is a
crucial thing to do if you really believe that the product solves real
problems. Don't let the unavoidable obstacles destroy your relationships. All
of you are still learning (the brick&mortar business experience isn't that
easy to transfer to tech startup) and that requires mistakes and dead-ends.
You can treat your adventures so far as a lessons in Lean Startup fashion and
check together if there's anything you all can improve.

