

Five reasons why this developer won't switch to Mac - rbanffy
http://www.dieblinkenlights.com/blog_en/five-reasons-why-this-developer-wont-switch-to-mac

======
intregus
You lost all credibility with this statement, "Developers usually don't care
for a unified user experience." You are talking about your preferences, and so
was the guy who wrote the smashing mag article. You are both making far too
general statements.

~~~
jemmons
How about the author's argument against macports: "You will learn a lot more
than you ever wanted to about source-code and build systems." Um, we _are_
talking about why a _developer_ might want to use a mac, right?

~~~
TJensen
What I find more ironic about that is I use ports a lot, but I've never
thought about the source-code and build systems aspect of it.

------
nickashley
I love how he says "I find it utterly annoying when any fanboy makes broad
claims such as 'Developers are Switching to Mac'"

then goes on to say..

"Windows sucks. Period."

I've played with Macs, and have given Linux an honest shot, using it as my
only OS for about 2 months. I am simply more productive developing PHP/MySQL
on windows.

~~~
pavel_lishin
I used windows for years to do the same thing. Now, when I'm at home, I'll
hook up my mac to the monitor and hide half of my windows desktop because I'm
much more productive here.

We should compare notes. I bet we're both doing something wrong/stupid in our
rejected OS's.

------
mechanical_fish
Can someone link me to an article that explains exactly what is so terrible
about Macports? I often hear Linux users moan about how awful and confused and
broken Macports is. But, as a web developer who uses Ruby, Apache, MySQL, and
git via Macports, I've never noticed any trouble. (A few years ago Macports
tended to lag the latest versions by a little too long, but that seems to have
cleared up as programmers migrate to the platform.)

My working assumption is that these complainers must be heavy-duty C
programmers, or some other variety of coder that uses a completely different
set of tools than I do. Or that they maintain some older codebases which link
against older, incompatible versions of various libraries, so they need to
install multiple versions of half a dozen libraries and then carefully control
how the linking is managed. Or they're former Gentoo users who are completely
obsessed with the minutiae of how their tools are being compiled and want to
be able to tweak their compiler optimizations on a fine-grained level.

Or maybe I just don't understand Debian well enough [1], and if I did I would
fall in love with its build system and spend all my working life in a Linux
VM.

\---

[1] I mean, I maintain Ubuntu servers, but that doesn't require a lot of
understanding of the build system. By and large, _aptitude_ or _apt-get_ just
work.

~~~
moe
_By and large, aptitude or apt-get just work._

That's the difference. On OSX they don't. And fink is a poor substitute.

~~~
cstejerean
Please explain. What doesn't work? I've used MacPorts over and over again for
the past 2 years without any problems. One of the few annoyances is that
MacPorts will install copies of software that already exist on the system, but
that's not really a big deal.

~~~
moe
Well, evgen already provided evidence better than I ever could.

My general take would be:

The most advanced binary package manager in existence is apt-get. The most
advanced build dependency manager is portage. Both have evolved over many
years (apt celebrated 10th birthday just recently) and are at the core of
their respective distros.

MacPorts and fink, on the other hand, are afterthoughts, somewhat akin to
strapon-dildos. Fink at least builds on proven technology, MacPorts reinvents
the wheel altogether. Neither has performed convincingly for me over the
longer term. I was regularly confronted with outdated packages, broken builds
or other screwage as soon as I left the beaten path of the few most popular
packages.

The package situation may have improved recently (my expirience is from 6
months ago) but the parallel universe, second userland issues are inherent.

It's just not possible to match the real thing™ by piggybacking a package-
manager on top of a system that wasn't designed for it. Even when the package
manager is as good as apt.

------
pohl
I started using Linux in 94, mostly as a way of riding out the dark ages when
operating system diversity all but vanished from the face of the earth. I'm a
developer, and my primary development system was several years old, running
Debian ('unstable' branch). I loved it; I was good at it.

In 2006 I changed jobs and was fortunate enough to get a quad-core MacPro to
work with. By that time I had already been an OSX user at home since Panther
came out. Before Linux, I had the good fortune of being exposed to Nextstep on
x86, PA-RISC, and even a SPARC 'tadpole' laptop. (Noisy beast!)

I don't miss using Linux, although I still love it. It has its own set of
hassles. Most things do.

I respect this guy's choices. Obviously he feels the need to vent, and that's
what the internet is for.

~~~
rbanffy
"I respect this guy's choices. Obviously he feels the need to vent, and that's
what the internet is for."

Not the internet as a whole, but that site of mine, certainly ;-)

------
speek
Good for him.

I, on the other hand, don't really care what machine I'm running on; I just
happen to really like OS X.

~~~
rudle
Good for you.

------
mr_justin
"Macs are the best computers for a lot of people, but not for software
developers."

That is just plain false. Installing packages (that either don't come with OS
X or just override the installed version) is a piece of cake. Without Ports.

------
astrodust
A more appropriate title for this post would surely be "Why I love Linux and
If You Were a Real Developer You Would Too".

While one could argue the original article was biased towards OS X and not
entirely objective, this rebuttal is so frustratingly incorrect on so many
levels. Either the author is misinformed or too stubborn to care that they're
mistaken.

This article wouldn't come off as a troll piece if there'd been some
explanation as to why Linux was quantifiably better for their particular uses
instead of merely spreading misinformation about OS X.

It's about the same as having the opinion "I like Chevy because Ford sucks!"

------
etherael
This puzzled me for the _longest_ time before I finally figured it out. My
position basically ignores windows and puts it in the "you use it because the
company who bought you a computer and subsidises your environment bought it
for you" but maybe I could imagine some permutation of the same kind of
argument for windows users, also.

I call it the Segway argument. ;)

Marathon runners, the type that train obsessively for days at a time, fly to
exotic high altitude locales to starve their bodies of oxygen, etc, and are at
the absolute peak of human conditioning, are quite capable of running very
long distances without much effort, in fact a case could reasonably made to
say that they actually _enjoy_ doing so.

Try sell one of those people a Segway.

It will have no tangible benefit aside from getting in the way of that person,
and in fact just the idea of trying to sell one to that market shows the
entire thing for the charade it is. It is not _designed_ to service people
like that.

The thing is that you can fairly make an argument that Marathon Runners like
that are probably wasting their lives / time developing that degree of ability
simply to do something like get from A to B with a reasonable level of
rapidity. Thus something like a Segway can actually make sense because it
isn't targeted at marathon runners, but a completely different type of person.

Now I don't want to be overly bragging, but I am only comfortable speaking for
myself in this debate so that is what I am going to do. Once you've been using
Linux since 1994, keeping well abreast of all the changes and benefits that
have been added to the platform between then and now. Once you've mastered
that environment so thoroughly that the regex flows from your fingertips as
easily as a normal user's expectation of a tooltip hover on a pretty OS X
widget. Once you've become accustomed to the almost limitless flexibility and
control of the platform, and all the niggling problems and voodoo that one
must occasionally confront when dealing with such a fluid platform slips so
silently into the unconscious competence basket that you cannot personally
even define the fact that it actually requires any competence at all without
thinking about it _really really hard_.

Once you've got all that, the idea of someone making a cut down variant based
on the BSD code base and making everything "just work" instantly, providing a
contiguous user experience, doing a ton of things that basically all group up
under the heading of "eliminating the need to acquire any indepth computer
literacy at all", the idea of switching to a mac is as puzzling to you as the
idea of the marathon runner picking up a Segway.

The critical thing to take away though, is that this is all value neutral, the
marathon runner is not a hero, he probably wasted a ton of his life and time
that could be spent better elsewhere acquiring the conditioning and abilities
allowing him to accomplish the feats that he can. The same could be said of
people in my situation with regards to computers, I am prepared to accept that
if something like OS X had existed back when I wanted a "real computer" in
1994, it would indeed have been a waste of my time to develop all these
skills. Further fair arguments could be made that I've wasted a ton of time
developing all those skills now when you can get it "almost" as good just by
paying a little premium on top of your average computer's cost. I get all
that, I want to be as absolutely non-elitist about this as I can be. Taking
all the above information into account I can _totally_ see how it makes sense
for normal people, and even up to a threshold some pretty extraordinary people
even in this particular sphere to choose OS X as a platform.

That is definitely something that was in my blind spot not long ago, just as
surely as Segways were an utterly bewildering concept to a marathon runner,
but I'm aware of it now. The fact is of course that your average person is
generally a lot more interested in stuff like walking around and fitness than
advanced computer science, thus the relative success rates of Segway and Apple
Computer.

But just because that market exists, is real, and has genuine value
propositions for a large swathe of humankind, should not be taken as a
reflection of it's value for _everyone_ regardless of experience or situation.
People like me will probably always prefer what we've developed this intensely
powerful unconscious competence in, and everyone else will look at us and say
it was a waste to do that, and although I don't agree with that position, I
can at least see how the conclusion would be reached and accept it.

~~~
TJensen
That's funny, because I've been using Linux since 1993 when I got sick of
needing to go to the CS computer labs in college. I've dealt with configuring
X more ways than I could possibly count. I've used Linux as my main
development desktop for many years.

And I'm typing this from my MacBook, which I've found to be the best
development environment I've ever used.

Just like I tell people who bash on different types of motorcycles: ride what
you like, like what you ride.

~~~
etherael
Curious: When was the last time you used Linux, why do you find OS X to be the
best development environment you've ever used, etc etc etc, Details are ace.
Not attempting to be confrontational, just genuinely want to know.

~~~
TJensen
I use Linux at home right now (Ubuntu 8.10) for a mythtv system. I used Ubuntu
7.4 (and others previous) for a couple of years for my desktop environment.
I've run Linux since 1993 and administered it since 1994 (trip down memory
lane: did a google search and found an e-mail from 1994 about a problem I was
having with ftpd :).

The reason why I changed was because I got sick of the nagging 1%. It didn't
seem to matter where, there was always some 1% that wasn't polished. It was
either that multiple monitors didn't work quite right (especially when
plugging in my laptop) or that my wi-fi wouldn't come back to life after
hibernating. There is always some little thing like that, and it interrupts
what I really want to be doing (developing, not troubleshooting).

On top of that, I don't just use emacs. I use things like photoshop, scratch
(always fun to code with my kid), garage band, keynote and pages. Yes, I can
get the same functionality on Linux (usually), but now we are at a 90%
experience (at best). There is truth (for me, at least) that well designed OS
X software just gets out of the way.

Yes, I do deal with "multiple user land", though I've honestly never thought
of it that way. My shells (including emacs) are set up to use ports, the rest
of the system uses Apple's defaults. I've never run into a problem there, but,
objectively, it is a little more pain than I would have on Linux.

If I were strictly using emacs and bash in a desktop environment, Linux would
be better than my MacBook, but I don't. I think it is disingenuous to imply
that developers don't do anything but that. In addition to being a developer,
I'm a regular computer user, too.

With OS X, I get what I feel is a good development environment along with a
great computing environment. With Linux, I got a great development environment
with an OK computing environment. That was fine when I enjoyed spending my
time troubleshooting the environment, but I'm not interested in that now.

~~~
etherael
I follow you, but what I was talking about with regards to unconscious
competence is exactly what makes that "nagging 1%" totally irrelevant, case in
point, upgraded an 8.10 system to 9.04 today, didn't boot, remembered
something about grub switching to a different format for it's root line,
edited the boot line in the grub interface, sure enough it was UUID based,
switched it to hd0,2 based, worked instantly, time elapsed < 20 seconds.

This is globally applicable to any problem I run into now, because I have
those unconscious competences built up from dealing with thousands upon
thousands of tiny issues like this in the past, I no longer even consciously
see them unless I look hard for them. Thus, taking care of those problems for
me is not something I find very valuable.

In the same way, I've trained myself to stick to hardware I know doesn't suck
for Linux, avoid ATI like the plague, make sure that all the devices I'm going
to be using work before I fork over cash for them, etc. So right there there's
a bunch of issues I don't even come across like your multi monitor issue
because I have taken measures to offset them appropriately.

As in the original argument, you could indeed argue that such things are a
waste of time and it's a lot easier to just pay some other company a premium
to handle it all for you, and thus it makes sense for platforms like OS X to
exist and thrive, but it still doesn't negate my original point, you've just
evolved away from being in the same group of users as I am into another one
altogether. And that is of course totally fine, but just serves to reinforce
the original point even more.

Thanks for the reference about scratch, that looks kind of interesting, if I
ever find myself having to teach I can definitely see a use case for something
like that.

~~~
TJensen
Like I said: Ride what you like; like what you ride. I can definitely see why
some people would like Linux better as a development environment. I can see
why some people would like OS X better. Believe it or not, I can even see why
some people would like Windows better (but I have to stretch really hard :).

However, your central argument seemed to be "if you've used Linux since 1994,
you would never find OS X better than Linux." I wanted to provide a counter-
point that, in fact, it was possible to use Linux since before 1994 and still
prefer OS X.

I'm still hoping for the day that I can have the same experience on Linux that
I get on OS X. One interesting observation is that I seemed to be able to
handle it better when the experience was 75% than when it is 90%.

Perhaps it is like human robots: the closer they get to being human, the
creepier they get. :) Perhaps the closer Linux gets (without being _there_ ),
the more I notice what's not right about it.

For anybody who isn't sure whether to go OS X or Linux, I'd certainly try
Linux first.

~~~
etherael
I need to be less wordy.

My central argument was _supposed_ to be that when you've spent the time to
develop the skills necessary to use Linux as a platform to the point where the
advantages of the OS X platform are invisible and the deficiencies are
glaringly apparent, you're not going to prefer OS X, despite the fact that
it's still perfectly fine for a whole ton of people.

~~~
rbanffy
You summed it up pretty well, but I would put it slightly differently: there
is a point where the characteristics of OSX are no longer an advantage, but a
hindrance, the same way as the characteristics of a more traditional Unix (or
Linux) are a problem for those who are more used to OSX or Windows.

There is a time you have to get rid of the training wheels.

------
shadytrees
> I find it utterly annoying when any fanboy makes broad claims such as
> "Developers are Switching to Mac"

OK, people who make broad claims based on anecdotes and hand-waving are
annoying, I agr--

> Macs are the best computers for a lot of people, but not for software
> developers.

Goddammit.

------
cnlwsu
meh, I too am a Linux user for development. I agree on a personal level but
really it comes down to preference. Mine is to run a free open source software
that works better then anything else I have ever used...

My opinion of this article? troll.

------
edw519
"my netbook came with a XP license, so, in essence, it came for free"

Another one drinks the koolaid.

~~~
olefoo
My netbook came with a Linux... that sucked.

So I replaced it with a different Linux that didn't suck.

Unfortunately as long as Windows XP is above a 50% market share I must loudly
point out what a maggoty decrepit worm-ridden corpse it is. Friends don't let
friends date zombies. ;-)

OS X can be tolerable, but it's a bit like wearing a corset, it can make you
look good; but it's kinda hard to breathe.

------
badger7
Badger's Laws of Mac/PC conflict:

1) If you like Macs, use a Mac. 2) If you like PCs, use a PC. 3) If you think
one is better than the other, _keep it to your damned self you obnoxious
bastard_

