
New research says starting university classes at 11am would improve learning - prostoalex
https://qz.com/957858/let-them-sleep-in-university-students-learn-better-in-classes-starting-after-11am-neuroscience-research-shows/
======
brightball
I remember my freshman year at Clemson my dad suggested that I retake calculus
even though I already had the AP credit because it would be an "easy A" for
GPA sake. It was 8am 4 days a week.

After the first test was failed for not showing my work I dropped the class.
My grades in every other class went up after that (next class was closer to
11am) and I never took another 8am class during college.

~~~
rz2k
I don't remember why I took Calculus my first year, but I skipped every class
after the first one, because it was painfully boring. I could pass the class
with the final alone, and didn't care about the grade very much. Anyway, by
skipping class I didn't know the final was rescheduled!

Luckily the professor let me take the final on my own later in the library,
though he'd thought I had skipped it because I had a near-zero on the quizzes
that were worth a few percentage points going into the final. However, there
was a section on Taylor series which I hadn't seen before on the final, so I
was certain that I had bombed it.

I wrote a long email talking about possible summer projects or something, so
that I'd have the prerequisites for the next year. I got back a cheery email,
"don't worry about it, you got an A, enjoy your summer!", and explaining that
the Taylor series was kind of an extra to see if anyone could figure out the
material that wasn't part of the course while taking the exam.

Obviously, I'd taken a lot of unwise risks, but I guess I got lucky with a
professor who identified with an immature student who knew the material but
had only taken a course because it was technically a prerequisite for
something else.

~~~
pmarreck
I was an academic rockstar (the high school Physics lab was _named after me_
for 10 years because I aced the NYS Regents and got a 5 on the AP, first
student in the school's history to do so) ...until I was sunk by Calc 192 at
Cornell. (TWICE.) Taylor and Maclaurin series is what finally did me in. (They
were not "optional" in calc 192.) That and the 8-hour-long problem sets. (Yes,
4 hard questions per problem set would take about 8 hours in total to work
out. Buzzkiller.) Know how often I've seen Taylor or Maclaurin series needed
in my CS career since? Fucking _never._ It's pure weed-out material, IMHO.

Also, you got an A in the most efficient way possible in that class, in my
opinion. THAT is intelligence in a nutshell! At least on _my_ IQ ruler, lol

~~~
labster
Obviously you've never done any fluid dynamics. I remember thinking Taylor
series were stupid too, until I got into upper division meteorology courses.
It's pretty much all we do, because hey, our initial conditions have most of
the error. Taylor series are super important to numerical modeling. You may
not have come across it in the wild, but I assure you many FORTRAN hackers
have.

~~~
pmarreck
Sort of an "out there" question: Fluid dynamics sounds interesting. Is there
any, eh, "fun, interactive" fluid dynamics simulation thing I could check out?
Basically, playing with someone else's model instead of modeling things myself

~~~
labster
Sorry, can't think of anything offhand. While I did go to graduate school for
atmospheric science, I've been out of the field for ten years now.

~~~
pmarreck
What did you end up doing (so far)?

~~~
labster
Lately, programming for a company that does online surveys. It's not
glamorous, but it is data analysis and intellectually challenging enough.
Other than that, I've worked on the Rakudo Perl 6 compiler. I help run a
nonprofit wiki farm at miraheze.org, where I'm the security specialist. And
I'm getting sidetracked in politics once again.

Too many side projects means I wasn't really focused enough to get a graduate
degree, but hey, you have to live life as you want, and go after the things
that make you happy.

------
hackermailman
For a year I got up at 4:30am, rode a bike for 20mins, showered then spent 3-4
hours doing math proofs and watching lectures. The morning was the only time I
could get this done since distractions are minimal, you don't have
emails/phone calls/obligations to think about like you do after lunch when
they start rolling in demanding your attention.

~~~
Vaskivo
Funny, for me it's at night, for the same reasons you say. I'm a night owl,
and I peak between midnight and 2 am

It has became really troublesome when I started working. If I was awake after
midnight it became really hard to fall asleep. And I feel bad that I can't be
at my top at my job because of the time difference.

~~~
soperj
I'm the same. Midnight to 2am is peak creativity for me. I just don't feel bad
about not being at my top at my job, and can never make it into the office
before 9.

~~~
ng12
Same here. It's not just work either, I always find music the most enjoyable
at 1am and will often put off sleep to finish an album. I never feel like that
at any other time of the day.

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nafizh
I highly suspect that is because most of the students do not go to bed early.

~~~
th0ma5
It's always funny to me when people assume that sleep works the same for
everyone or that it is as simple as scheduling something on a calendar.
Neither are true.

~~~
alrehn
I think most people can change their sleeping habits. If you actually practice
good sleep hygene and make consistent habits around sleep and you still can't
get to sleep at a reasonable time, then you are not the norm and may have a
medical condition.

~~~
kolinko
Honest wuestion - what do you base this on? Anything besides personal
experience?

~~~
mannykannot
Well, I can say for myself that the younger me adapted faster to timezone
changes than I do now. That adaptation is presumably driven by the diurnal
rhythms of the destination, but given that a fair amount of modern life is
conducted under artificial light (and artificial darkness, for those who sleep
in), it seems plausible that sleep patterns could be modified to some extent,
through adjustment to the already-artificial diurnal cycle.

------
thetli8
A while back, I read an article that discussed the differences in people and
how, during the hunter & gatherer era, some humans evolved to be night owls
and some humans evolved to be early birds. It determined which person would
keep watch at night.

In college, I remembered only signing up for 11am classes as a freshman before
changing to 9am classes in sophomore and senior year. I think a lot of this
has to do with staying up late in college.

There's probably a time where students can function properly, earlier than
11am, if they were to sleep by 12am.

~~~
komali2
If you could find that article, I'd be very interested in reading. I ask
because I'm quite skeptical of the concept of humans "evolving" different
time-preferences. Mostly because of 2 questions: "How was that selected for,"
and, "given that very little has changed about humans through evolution in the
last 10,000 years, what sort of timeline did the article suggest this 'time-
preference' evolution occured over?"

~~~
dmm10
Boyd Eaton and his students did some of this work. Its touched on in The
Paleolithic Prescription (popular book) with more details in papers before and
since (search on book's authors' names for research papers. Sorry I don't have
better for you now.) As I recall they identified three sleep patterns from
anthropological studies of populations not influenced by modern technologies
(eg. electric lighting) and from historical documents (ex. Victorian era
doctors' notes mentioning what were considered normal sleep patterns at the
time.) 1) Early to sleep + early to rise 2) Late to sleep + late to rise 3)
Late to sleep + late to rise (with waking in the middle of the night)

A modern cartoon characterization of type three is Dagwood Bumstead from the
comic strip Blondie. He would get up naturally for midnight snacks and over-
sleep for work or snooze during work. Type three Victorians were noted by
their physicials as naturally rising for midnight prayers or sex with spouses.

As to genetic selection, the postulated survival advantage relates to the
military three watches of the night. With group members naturally awake
throughout the night predators were better protected against, surprise attacks
less likely, etc.. Hence, a mixed group consisting of all three types would
have a survival advantage.

------
bpodgursky
Or maybe... students would just stay up even later.

I know my own sleep basically drifts later and later until I run into hard
deadlines. I'd be surprised if most people don't work that way, in a vacuum.

~~~
trendia
What you're describing is Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder [0] or Non-24 Hour
Sleep cycles [1]

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder)

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wa...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wake_disorder)

------
parthdesai
In my first two years, i didn't even try going to 8am classes after 1st week.
And i know alot of engineering classmates who were like this. But i did end up
going to 8am classes in my 4th year. Is it because you mature or because
courses are actually related to you? I don't know.

~~~
otoburb
While I was like this, some engineering classes scheduled quizzes in the
morning. Skipping these were detrimental to my grades. With the benefit of
hindsight, my behaviour of skipping morning classes was incredibly stupid, but
at the time made perfect sense from my limited worldview.

~~~
reallydontask
it's interesting that traditional hard subjects seem to have this tradition of
early morning lectures, at least in my experience.

Flatmates doing Math, Chemistry and Physics and we all had early lectures.

Chap doing Philosophy would complain, quite a bit, about his Tuesdays as he
had a 10:00 lecture.

~~~
LanceH
Math and science classes in the morning so you can have labs in the
afternoon/evenings.

------
pasbesoin
It's not even an individual choice nor just "biology." When you have a dorm
full of people making noise until 1 or 2 am. When you have all the social
activity kicking off at 8 or 9 pm...

Unless your institution has a "quiet dorm" you can get a slot in, and you are
sufficiently secure in your own, non-mainstream social status...

P.S. U.S. perspective.

~~~
TillE
Yeah, exactly. It's all well and good for people to rant about Personal
Responsibility and those dang coddled snowflakes, but how are you supposed to
control everyone around you?

You could always transform your university into a miserable oppressive
environment which no one really wants to go to, enforcing early quiet hours in
every single dorm...or you could just push the class schedule ahead by a
couple hours.

------
alttag
I have no evidence to rebut the conclusion—indeed it aligns with similar
research on high school students.

However, a big chokepoint at my current school (major state university) is the
availability of classrooms. Classes are already booked in the old (and
recently expanded!) building _and_ in the new graduate building for 12-plus
hours each day.

There simply isn't enough space to put off scheduling courses until 11.

Besides, just because something is good for the average student doesn't mean
it's good for all students. My classes certainly have a different flavor
depending on whether they're in the early morning or late evening. Even if
it's the same course, the differently timed sections have their own character
and attract different sorts of students.

~~~
noobiemcfoob
> just because something is good for the average student doesn't mean it's
> good for all students.

Holy pi, if only the education system could understand this simple thing...
>.<

------
charles-salvia
I usually just rely on drugs like... um, caffeine, rather than trying to
religiously stick to a particular sleep schedule.

~~~
misja111
Then you are fooling yourself, caffeine doesn't really enhance mental
performance. You just feel that you are more awake, but your brains aren't.
See e.g.:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20182035](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20182035)

~~~
criddell
> In conclusion, it appears that caffeine cannot be considered a 'pure'
> cognitive enhancer. Its indirect action on arousal, mood and concentration
> contributes in large part to its cognitive enhancing properties.

Indirect cognitive enhancement is good enough for me.

~~~
posterboy
There are reasons for the body to feel tired. Deriving yourself of that
feeling could have malignant long term impacts.

------
nashashmi
So what should be the idea here: brainless work in the morning and brain-
intense work in the afternoon? Yup, sounds like the advice a lot of people use
and give others.

What is frustrating is the article does not give that great information where
I can just take a few of my own theories and test them through here.

I remember having a routine in high school where I would wake up at 5 am, do
some language deciphering intense reading for half an hour, read through some
interesting non-fictions for another half, get ready for school, and become
sharper than anytime I have been before by 8o'clock.

------
cJ0th
Tbh, starting later would seem like a typical "doing things for the sake of
doing things" thing to me. In my opinion, the majority of people who try to
"fix" education are first and foremost just trying to leave a mark, letting
everyone know that they were here (maybe without realizing it). Let's suppose
you were given the chance to attend lectures by the most impressive person in
the world. Don't you think that you'd soak it all in even when those talks
were given at 6 am?

~~~
eduren
>Let's suppose you were given the chance to attend lectures by the most
impressive person in the world. Don't you think that you'd soak it all in even
when those talks were given at 6 am?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I physically wouldn't be able to. I'd try
(most impressive in the world would require that I do my best), but at the end
of the day circadian rhythms are really hard to tame.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
> High school and college classes in the US can start as early as 7am.

Yikes, that seems cruel, given that might mean getting up at 5am or earlier.

~~~
tomohawk
For many students, this is a necessity, as they work after school.

What would be cruel would be depriving these students of work opportunities
because some students don't need the income and can afford to sleep in.

~~~
marvy
I have a possibly dumb question. Wouldn't those students also be better off?
They work the same number of hours, but later in the day. Unless it's the kind
of thing that can't be one hour later?

~~~
laurenbee
The kinds of jobs available to typical high school students such as food
service work and babysitting tend to start earlier in the day (in my
experience). Food service jobs often start around 4:00 to beat the evening
rush, and babysitting can start whenever the kids get out of school.

~~~
marvy
Well, then in the babysitting case, the solution is clearly to have school
ALSO start later. Might be a bit impractical to coordinate that.

------
vic-traill
My view is that life rarely aligns to one's habits and/or inclination. This as
as true in my teen years as it is in my fifth decade.

I won't project my experience on anyone else; I do however feel strongly that
the learned ability to impose my sense of responsibility on my inclination has
been a valuable skill in my life.

------
ben_jones
I remember one year when the math classes I needed were only held at 8am.
Combined with roommates who regularly made loud noises as late as 4 in the
morning, a lease I could not afford to break, and myself being a very light
sleeper... it was a major detriment to my academics.

------
bluenose69
Why no discussion of the fact that people tend to wake up earlier as they age?
A lot of professors are quite tired late in the day, and their lectures might
not be too terrific. It seems we should multiply two functions, one increasing
and the other decreasing, to find the best time. And then put all classes at
that single best hour. Or, well, you know ... stick with the working hours
that basically every other adult has to deal with.

------
gumby
MIT (in the 1980s) almost never had early morning classes. In fact,
notoriously, Unified Engineering (aero-astro core sequence) started at 9AM; on
the first day of class they apologized to us for the 9AM start saying that
they just couldn't schedule it any other way (all the AF ROTC kids were
already up so maybe this was a fig leaf excuse).

On the other hand I had more than one undergraduate class start in the early
evening.

------
jriot
18 years old I had to be at work at 545am in the military to learn how to
become an air traffic controller. I completed my training in 50% of the
allotted time, becoming a fully certified air traffic controller in a fairly
complex airspace - White Sand Missile Range, NM when F-117s were still in
service. Maybe college students just need to have better self-accountability
and learn responsibility.

~~~
Eric_WVGG
This comment makes me so goddamned angry.

Around the time I turned fourteen I lost my ability to fall asleep at night
and wake up in the morning. I hung on to decent grades by "testing well," but
never able to keep my head up during morning classes. All along people told me
it was a discipline problem, and I followed their goddamned advice and got
nowhere.

The last fifteen years of research in sleep and brain chemistry have validated
my experience. It had _nothing_ to do with self-accountability and
responsibility; some people are night owls, others are not.

Fuck you for thinking that your personal experiences are indicative of me
having “poor character.” Fuck you and your fucking career.

~~~
dingaling
I went through basic training in open-floor barracks with a few folk who
insisted they were 'night owls' and would play their music to 01:00 or later,
falling asleep to the noise.

Initially the rest of us endured it and would turn-off the radio when they
fell asleep, to then enjoy four hours sleep. After the second week, however,
we managed to 'cure' the night owls.

I am sure many people suffer a medical condition that impairs sleeping. Most,
however, do not.

~~~
Eric_WVGG
Did you not read the bit where I said I spent years following the advice of
sanctimonious pricks?

------
neutronicus
One year in college I had Calc III at 6 PM. That may have been the most
engaged I have ever been in a lecture.

------
tstegart
What kind of university has the space to start classes at 11AM? Just the
logistics of trying to fit that many more classes into your limited building
space seems impossible. You'd either need a lot more buildings, or you'd need
to be forcing other things to the early time slot.

~~~
ng12
At my university the last undergraduate classes were out by 5, but graduate
classes would run as late as 9pm. I think a perception that undergraduate
should be 8-5 is part of the problem.

------
enahs-sf
My advisor told me that many of the prerequisites for engineering were
deliberately set at 8AM as a way to weed out the less dedicated students.
Don't know how much truth there is to that statement, but I do know I missed a
lot of physics lectures freshman year for this reason.

------
cbhl
If you actually started the university day at 12pm, though, then evening
classes would run later, and students would stay up later, creating a vicious
cycle.

Plus, you'd have fewer daylight hours to walk home after class.

~~~
jy1
Yes, however your sleep scheduled isn't affected when you're late partying
which is a big bonus.

------
hughes
I really don't understand the dependency on hours of the clock.

Would a student struggling in an 8am class in Pacific time suddenly excel if
they moved to the East coast and went to 11am classes starting at the same
moment?

Is there any variation between the east and west extremes of a given time
zone?

Is 11am post daylight savings as effective as 11am before shifting the clocks?

Or is this more about the social habits of the people around the students than
the height of the sun in the sky?

~~~
YokoZar
For healthy normal people, when you travel your circadian rhythms reset your
body's internal clock and sleeping schedule based mostly on sunlight exposure.
It takes between a few days and a week to adjust (this is exactly jet lag).

There is absolutely variation between time zones extremes. The Spanish, for
instance, notoriously eat and stay up "late" compared to the Polish or
Germans. All three countries are in the same time zone, despite the sun
setting about 2 hours later in Spain.

Social habits do matter (the Spanish schedule is somewhat more delayed than
the 2 hours you might expect from sunlight alone).

If you'd like to look up more on this topic, you can read about light therapy,
sleep hygiene, shift worker syndrome (where normal people try to sleep later
than natural), and delayed sleep phase syndrome (where night owls try to sleep
earlier than natural).

------
dingo_bat
I hate classes that start late. It just means I'll sleep till the time I need
to leave for class. If the class is at 8, I'll get up at 730 and of the class
is at 11, I'll wake up at 1030. So a later class just wastes my morning.

------
Spooky23
I always preferred early classes. Usually in school I would be done by lunch
MWF, and do 1-6 or 3-7 TuTh.

Most of the people I knew complaining about early classes were hung over. I
only drank and carried on during the weekend to avoid that.

------
gozur88
I expect students would do better for a week or two. By then they'd be getting
up at 10:30 and the 11:00 classes would seem early.

------
ericcumbee
8AM Systems Analysis and Design and 8AM IT Project Management are the two
biggest mistakes of my college career.

------
jksmith
The Nick (local dive bar) closed at 4a to keep from turning into a B&B. Saw
RHCP there - good show.

------
ganfortran
University students optimal learning time of the day varies person by person,
common sense indicates.

------
mifeng
"University students go to sleep later than most people, neuroscience research
shows"

\- the next mind-blowing revelation in this series of articles.

~~~
szx
Honest question, did you read the article? While I haven't read this
particular one, I'm familiar enough with the field to know that controlling
for confounding factors is one of the most basic types of controls. Any half-
decent article would control for the kind of thing you're suggesting.

That said, the article appears to have been published by Frontiers in Human
Neuroscience, which does have a less than stellar reputation for rigorous
peer-review and, as a result, article quality[0].

[0] [https://neuroconscience.com/2016/01/15/is-frontiers-in-
troub...](https://neuroconscience.com/2016/01/15/is-frontiers-in-trouble/)

------
ctsciencenut
I know this has been proven for high school students as well. There have been
some interesting studies about starting times and standardized testing as
well. Check out the study "Examining the Impact of Later High School Start
Times on the Health and Academic Performance of High School Students: A Multi-
Site Study"

~~~
Asooka
AFAIK the early hours classes are meant to build discipline, not to optimise
for learning. A lot of school rituals seem to be built with the goal of making
you used to a disciplined punctual life, rather than actually teaching you any
knowledge.

~~~
alttag
My experience (as someone who was elected to public education administration)
suggests it's often more about logistics. For example, adjusting how many bus
drivers (and busses) are needed in a district to serve elementary, middle and
high schools. Staggering start times reduces the need, but drives one of these
options to be earlier than the others.

High school sports complicates logistics later in the day.

It's not just a question of learning; it's also a question of cost and
resources.

------
Fiahil
Today I learned, American students are lazy and ineffective before 11AM.

~~~
dang
Please don't take threads in nationalistic directions.

------
douche
That is about when the hangover starts to wear off...

------
zxcvvcxz
I understand completely that exhausted students are going to perform worse
than if they were better-rested. I absolutely do, as I was one - a more
naturally late-night person who had to make it to those 9am classes and exams.

But look at the opening photo folks.

We're being asked to give the younger generation later start times _because
they 're going to stay out partying no matter what during school_, and we
better compensate for this.

What a pathetic state of affairs. Higher education is not meant to be 4 years
of partying. Or if it is, let me know which schools are selling this vision,
so as an employer I can more carefully filter people's 'educational'
experience.

~~~
abraves10001
The opening photo looks to be at a sporting event, during the day. Not sure
how that is problematic.

A systemic change of college and young adult culture would be required to stop
students from partying late at night, I don't think the colleges selling or
not selling this vision is going to have much of an impact.

I am not sure why pushing back some starting times is such a terrible idea
given what we know about college students habits.

It kind of reminds me about addicts and either attempting to punitively
discourage them and deal with the consequences or give them clean needles and
at least ameliorate some of the problems associated with usage.

