
Ask HN: What is a non-developer to do? - stuck
Hi guys,<p>I’m 24, got a masters in business and I am totally clueless on what to do with my life. I would like to ask you for some advice because I have been reading HN every day  for the past 6 months and saw some brilliant advice given on these boards.<p>I am from Europe and when I was 18 I chose to enter a business university because I liked to organize trips for my friends, had excellent grades at school and teachers and parents told me it’s the safest bet because a good income and future are guaranteed with this kind of degree.<p>6 years later, I have my degree, I have a job in a Spanish business consultancy but I feel pretty much useless; I spend my days preparing elaborate 300 slides power point presentations full of citations of market reports and always followed by some bs excel projections about future revenues and promises of a brighter tomorrow. The bosses love my work, the clients happily pay astronomical fees to listen to our "expert" advice, and I wonder how is it even possible to make so much money selling what we are selling, air.<p>During my business studies, startups were never mentioned, I grew up believing a good idea is what matters, and that either you have it, or you do not, and that lady luck was the one who distributes ideas to whoever she chooses.  After stumbling upon HN and the plethora of other blogs and articles linked here I started to see how narrow my vision was and how much more there was to creating a business than writing your 100 page business plan.<p>So my question is, how can I get out of this vicious circle of unfulfilling work 9-20  (officially its 9-5 by I never get out of the office before 20) and do something that I care about?<p>I have been trained to be a good office boy so I can most likely get employed for the majority of big companies and start climbing the corporate ladder starting with €30k . It just that, working the 40 years of my life doing stuff that I do not care about just to earn a lot of cash does not particularly motivate me.<p>On the other hand there are startups, 100% dedication to your product, the whole team believing in what you are doing. Sounds like fun, but I realize that I am useless in an environment like that. With no tech expertise and 2 years business experience I do not see myself critically contributing to any serious startup.<p>I have tried finding a solution myself, I read countless posts on the quarter life crisis, vault and wetfeet industry reports, talked with my career manager, my friends, my parents - nothing really helped me. I do not know what kind of job I could do with my current skills that could make me wake up in the morning and feel motivated to go there.<p>Perhaps some of you have gone through the same path, perhaps you can see something I do not, but any word of advice would be appreciated!<p>Cheers from a sunny Spain!
======
raheemm
You must read sivers.org - Derek Sivers is a musician turned entrepreneur who
became a programmer too and he has great advice on many issues you speak of.

First, check out the following on finding your passion:
<http://sivers.org/passion>

Next read this article about taking that big step towards your dreams (its one
of my favorite): <http://sivers.org/loss>

If you find yourself wanting to get into the tech startup route but despair
about not being a programmer, the following is excellent advice on how to turn
your idea into a blueprint for a programmer and also (I think) great advice on
how to become a product guy: <http://sivers.org/how2hire>

~~~
stuck
Thanks a lot for the links! I did read some cool stuff from Sivers before but
I missed the articles you linked

------
webwright
Can you sell? A lot of people with business degrees can't or won't-- but some
can.

Non-geeks can be good at selling, designing, SEO, SEM, PR, finance,
copywriting etc.

I'd suggest taking two steps. 1) Try to move yourself nearby startups (if
that's really your thing). This can be in Spain-- just spend time at whatever
geeky meetups you can find and start batting around ideas. And 2) Start trying
to get smart about some of those non-geek skills that are valuable in a small
software company. Optional: 3) Learn to code. Most startup coding is just
about form fields and databases-- not algorithms.

~~~
stuck
Definitely great advice!

No I cannot sell, usually this is what partners do in my company. I only
interact with the clients after the initial sale was done. The closest I get
to selling is in drafting the request for proposal (a doc where you tell them
how you want to solve their problem/need) for the specific client.

~~~
webwright
Related question: WILL you sell or would you hate it? Sales is definitely a
skill, but a learnable one (especially if you have solid
biz/people/negotiation skills and a willingness to hear the word "No" a lot.
;-) )

~~~
stuck
Of course I am willing! As long as I believe in what I am selling I think it
would be a great challenge to get my point through

------
pdelgallego
The start-up scene in Spain is very small. I recommend you to read Loogic, a
blog about start ups in Spain.

If you dont like what you are doing, don't do it. Find something that
motivates you.

In my opinion you should learn at least some basics skills about planning in
technology/engineering. Learn what is the Waterfall model, what is Toyotism,
what is Agile software development, scrum, Kaban ... there are many things
that you can learn, but first things first. What are you interested in?

Anyway, my very best advice. Try to crash in a place where they really know
what they are doing. Try to work with great and smart people, even if you earn
less money. "Be the worts", that will make every day a challenge.

Will you consider relocate?

~~~
stuck
Thanks for the blog, will add it to my list of morning reading. I do read a
lot, I love it! Apart from web reading I also read books, non fiction mainly -
I recently read hackers&paints, 4 steps to epiphany, presentation zen, back of
a napkin...I love reading stuff that makes me better at work. What I do not
like is the lack of flexibility to try new stuff at work.

The interested part is what bothers me. I cannot seem to find an answer to
that even though I spent countless nights trying to figure it out. I like
reading, watching movies, going to the gym, dancing, skydiving....heck, I have
loads of interests! But hey, can you make a living out of reading books that
you like and dancing?

I moved away from my country of origin at 17, lived in 4 different countries
and I fluently speak 4 languages. Relocating is not a problem at all.

~~~
chopsueyar
You are a pretty smart guy.

It seems to me you would be happier with another job that allows you more
"free time" to find something pursuable (some idea) that you can get
passionate about.

You are working 11 hour days. I'm sure when you come home in the evening, you
really don't want to teach yourself to write code before you pass out, all the
while torturing your mind to find some passionate interest to pursue.

I recommend finding a job where you can have more free time, even with a
paycut.

PS: Since you are making a decent bit of money, and can speak 4 languages,
find a successfull website in one language/country, and you can create a
similair site in the same/other country using the other language. You can hire
contractors to build the necessary components, and should be able to do this
without quitting your job. You manage the content in the language of your
choice.

You also would have an edge in affiliate marketing for these other languages.

Can any other HN readers comment about their experiences with Google
AdSense/Affiliate Marketing in other (non-US) countries/languages? or US non-
english?

~~~
pdelgallego
That is a question that I ask me every week. Actually I ask myself two
questions?

\- How can I identify products that can be adapted to a different culture?

\- How can I replicate a successful business model in a different
environment/country?

I lived for a while in Miami, and I succeed a couple of times taking a project
that I like, I revamped it a little bit to target the US latino market. I am
trying to do the same thing in Denmark now, but I am failing all the time.

------
spencerfry
I wrote an article on this subject:

<http://spencerfry.com/whats-a-non-programmer-to-do>

It was spawned from a HN post:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=779378>

~~~
ABrandt
Awesome, awesome stuff. Definitely the inspiration for my first blog post.
Coincidentally, I just wrote it yesterday :)

<http://austinbrandt.posterous.com/hustlin-aint-easy-part-1>

------
c1sc0
You havea couple of skills that are really useful for startups: you know how
to research a topic, you probably know how to schmooze with people, you know
how to put together a decent presentation & you know how to write well. Those
are all tasks that are terrible time-sinks for developers in a startup. My
tip:

Learn how to create a distraction-free environment for developers by taking
over all of these distracting tasks that nevertheless need to be done.

Hell, maybe there's even a business right there: become a VA for developers so
that they can focus on code. Expect to lower your rates though ;-)

~~~
maukdaddy
Are you hiring or know someone who is?! I appreciate your attitude, but it
seems startups give us more business-focused people the cold shoulder. Or
maybe I haven't found the right one ;)

~~~
petervandijck
Writing presentations and schmoozing are not hire-able skills for a startup.

However, if you can get startupX paying clients for their product, that is a
hireable skill.

~~~
c1sc0
If said schmoozing can get you press, investment or blogging attention then
I'd say that's valuable. But sure, paying customers are the best!

Edited to add: a traditional powerpoint presentation may not be valuable, but
if you can create a good video, slideshow or pdf and make it generate traffic
to your website, that's valuable.

------
AmitinLA
I come from a similar situation and faced similar challenges, especially after
trying to launch a web startup with no financing and no developers on board.
It failed. I'm determined to stay in tech, so here's some of my (occasionally
conflicting) thoughts.

1) You call yourself a business guy, but are you a product guy? If you're a
product guy -- if you can understand the soul of a product and how it
interacts with people -- that can be inherently valuable. In my experience,
most people I've met may be "tech" or "business", but they're not product
people.

2) Get an internship. Beg. Show up, prove why you're valuable, send
unsolicited resumes with advice and biz dev/product suggestions. Be humble,
but not too much. Work for free for a couple months, or at minimum wage or
whatever is legal. Just get your foot in the door.

3) Read. The Elements of User Experience (<http://amzn.to/aFNjSn>), The
Mythical Man Month (<http://amzn.to/cFLDlB>) -- these are just to get you
started. Learning to code a little bit will be good as well. The point is not
to become an expert developer, but to learn how developers think. Think of
your reading as travel literature and learn about different cultures.

4) Look for non-sexy opportunities. Twitter, FB, 4SQ, Zynga etc., get all the
hype, but there's tons of need for software development and product design in
what I call the "iceberg industries." The trucking industry brings in $250
billion dollars in revenue every year. That's almost twice the size of the
airline industry and yet a typical website of theirs looks like this:
<http://www.highwayfreight.com/index.php>

5) Think about CPG (even though it's not tech, it still can be a startup).
It's a risky, tough move and faces lots of market forces, but can be
incredibly lucrative. You could find a small local product that you believe
in, invest some cash to get equity, and try to make them big. As a consultant,
your skills may be valuable because the problems in these types of
entrepreneurial efforts are operational problems, not innovation problems.

6) Don't worry too much about the idea or where you're working right now: your
goal is to build professional and personal credibility. Give away your great
ideas. Most people who have them don't tend to have just one.

7) Don't worry about home runs. Most entrepreneurs I know have small lifestyle
businesses and love their companies no matter the size. It's kinda like having
a kid. S/he's probably not going to grow up to be president, but you're going
to love 'em anyway.

~~~
palish
It's interesting that you imply <http://www.highwayfreight.com/index.php> is
bad design, when you consider the design of the website you're typing into. :)

My point is, you have to find _actual_ opportunities. A shiny website may not
be one, but you might manage to convince yourself that you could convince
others to see that a new website is a necessity, or even very valuable.

~~~
AmitinLA
I should have been more clear. My point is not that it's a bad design per se;
as you point out HN isn't the best designed site in the world either. My point
is more that these industries are old, established industries that haven't yet
built up innovative approaches (whether from the consumer side or the business
side) to their business models.

I used trucking because I did some research on the industry and found that
they have a fair amount of logistical innovation but still have major
inefficiencies in the way that their customers book business. It's not the
perfect example. But I think my point stands.

~~~
palish
My point was that your fundamental assumption is wrong. HN has a _fantastic_
design. I believe the trucking site is just as effective.

~~~
AmitinLA
Interesting. I'm somewhat inclined to agree with you w/r/t HN, because the UX
of HN is great, though at this point we may be disagreeing definitionally over
"design."

As for the trucking website, I would completely disagree for the following
reasons:

1) You have to receive a quote over email. Why? Either their systems are built
that way, which is ridiculous, or they require a human to look up values and
quote a price, which at this point is also ridiculous.

2) The form design is terrible. Eye movement/focus is all over the place.

3) There's absolutely no reason to use this company vs. other companies based
on their home page. What's their selling point? They have the same boilerplate
as everyone else.

4) Amateur hour: They misformat their own phone number: "(256) 852-553 5."
That nav bar. That frequent shipper link.

~~~
palish
Ah. This is a pretty interesting discussion, I think, so let's try to figure
it out.

One of my points -- disregarding whether the concept of quoting a price is
good or not -- is that there isn't anything fundamentally wrong about this
form: <http://dl.dropbox.com/u/315/random_pics/free_quote_form.png>

They provide a phone number, office hours, and a satisfaction assurance.

About whether manually quoting prices is a good idea or not... I think overall
it facilitates the sales process, not harms it. It's a fact of the industry,
for one. For two, communicating verbally is much more engaging than via the
internet. It _seems_ like you would attract more customers in this instance,
unless your company did something fundamentally differently from the
competition.

 _) Amateur hour: They misformat their own phone number: "(256) 852-553 5."
That nav bar. That frequent shipper link._

But does that really _matter_? What matters is that they provide a specialized
service to move an item from point A to point B. Sure, an extra space is a
typo, but not a serious one.

I'm really not trying to be nitpicky. I'm trying to point out that people
often make fundamentally wrong assumptions. And that will have a direct
negative impact when deciding what to spend time on, which is one of the most
precious resources.

~~~
AmitinLA
_...there isn't anything fundamentally wrong about this form"_

I think the only way to definitively prove either of my points is with A/B
testing, etc. But one way I can try to make my argument is to look at forms
from other successful companies. Almost every single long web form I've seen
or filled out goes down where there is a clear sequential order. Think about
long forms on SurveyMonkey or the product selection form on any computer
manufacturing website. The main exceptions seem to be for very short forms (~4
fields).

 _They provide a phone number, office hours, and a satisfaction assurance._

None of that is different from the competition.

 _About whether manually quoting prices is a good idea or not... I think
overall it facilitates the sales process, not harms it. It's a fact of the
industry, for one._

There may very well be good, or more accurately, rational, reasons for
manually quoting prices but the ones that I can think of (there's human
judgement involved, etc.) are all business opportunities. From a
buyer/consumer perspective, this pricing uncertainty and lack of information
can be confusing and even bad. Imagine having to do this for airline prices,
etc. Even FedEx will quote you a price for a similar service (and they use
vertical forms: <http://at.fedex.com/QX58q>).

An aside: whenever I hear something along the lines of "a fact of the
industry" I usually smell money. That doesn't mean I know how to get it, but
it's somewhere out there.

 _But does that really matter?_

Absolutely. This is not an industry where there are one or two or three
players. There are dozens of competitors and if I'm entrusting my business --
and goods worth thousands and thousands of dollars -- I'm going with the "most
professional" people. I may pay more for it, though I don't want to. I'm not
going to go with the firm that has so little attention to detail that they
can't correct typos on a website that has likely been around for years. The
fact that they didn't even notice bugs the crap out of me.

Here's a way to test this, if you'd be interested: Take screenshots of this
site and I'll pick another site that I think is better designed but that
offers the same services. We ask people to pick one based purely on sight.
Some third party has to be willing to set up the survey though and email it to
some of his or her friends to ensure impartial results.

 _I'm really not trying to be nitpicky._

I don't think this is a bad thing. I think if you're really passionate about
this stuff you care about it to the core or it's not worth caring at all.

------
cjg
The Paul Graham article "How to Do What You Love" has some tips in it that you
might find useful.

<http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html>

------
OoTheNigerian
If you have the chance, try and attend a hack weekend like http//:launch48.com
. You will meet lots of people who are doing are interested in doing startups.
You will get a healthy overview of what it takes in one short weekend. 2\. Try
and get involved in a startup project even if it is for fun and I promise you
that it will jump start something in you.

With your skills (common sense) you could do learn HTML, UX and learn to
create mockups e.t.c.

The most important thing you can do now is to take action.

best of luck man

~~~
stuck
Thanks a lot for the advice, sounds like an interesting start

------
mattdeboard
Buenos dias! I'm a PR professional toiling in the American Midwest after
leaving the San Francisco Bay Area for family reasons. My plan, in another
couple of years, is to leave the job I'm working at now for the startup
industry.

I'm not a geek. I have dabbled some with Python, like reading the occasional
"hard" CS article linked from HN, love startup culture, love technology, etc.
I'm not a hacker though. Most my good friends are, however.

My plan, which could easily apply to you goes a little like this.

Work here in the midwest for another couple of years while the family
situation resolves itself. Do research on which of the big American tech hubs
(Austin, Boston, NYC, Silicon Valley, etc.) are looking the most active in
terms of hiring. Move to that place and start seeking a job -- as a PR
professional. Now, granted, by the time a startup is seeking a dedicated and
experienced PR professional, they're beyond the "five guys working to hack
together a product" stage. However, those are the kinds of people I want to
work with, not 50-year-olds grinding out their remaining work years sitting in
an office.

I cannot imagine working in a corporate environment for more than a couple
years. Even less can I imagine living in the stagnating midwest (not even
Chicago) for more than a couple years.

Develop a 3- or 5-year plan to get yourself out of the corporate doldrums. Be
willing to move to where the beating heart of tech entrepreneurship is in your
country/region. Gather as much experience as you can doing as many varied
tasks within your area of expertise as possible. Learn sales, learn marketing,
be active in social media, teach yourself some programming so you can at least
participate in conversations by asking intelligent questions.

Startups need more people than just hackers once they have a product on their
hands. No eres sin util in such an environment. Buena suerte!

------
freshfey
As other people already said, you're underselling yourself. You have great
skills and a great mind to even achieve more skills. If you're interested in
the tech/web space and really interested in the creating part, why not learn
programming? Yes, it takes time, yes it can be hard, but it can also be
fulfilling. I'm a business guy myself, although I study Electrical Engineering
and I'm currently trying to learn Ruby on Rails. Frameworks like Rails or
platforms like Titanium (www.appcelerator.com) make it easy for non-
programming people to learn the basics (be it Ruby, JS, HTML or CSS) and
actually create something. I did an online tutorial on JavaScript, after that
I dived into Titanium and tried to re-implement an example. After a few days
and some setbacks, my iPhone app was 90% done. As I said, if it's creating in
the tech world, you're interested in, don't worry be crappy and learn a lot
along the way! :) What do you have to lose?

------
maukdaddy
I'm sort of in your situation, although I do have some background in
programming from college years. I also did the consulting thing before getting
my MBA. That said, I'm looking for product management positions, and think
that they might be a good fit for you too.

In theory, product managers should be able to take care of all the business
matters to free the developers to concentrate on the code. Good product
managers would be capable of defining requirements, deciding which features
for which release, doing some level of marketing and analytics, etc. Your
business and consulting background would definitely be a good fit for these
kinds of activities.

tl;dr - look for product management positions.

~~~
stuck
I only have 2 years of work experience, I highly doubt I am qualified enough
to work as a product manager :)

------
jlindley
If your business experience is in talking with and listening to other people,
it is valuable. If you know about marketing or sales, it is valuable.

Instead of worrying about what to do, worry about how to meet people that are
also interested in building things. The rest follows from there.

If you've got friends to explore with, the question becomes "what do we do?"
instead of "what do I do?" and it's a more powerful mental place to start
from. Still scary but not such an overwhelming existential question.

Once you've got exposure to the world you want to be in, you'll find your
place. In the mean time, make sure you're saving money so you're capable of
doing something about the opportunity you find, once you find it.

------
bpourriahi
\- stop relying on advice given by anyone not where you want to be

\- the amount of revenue a business makes is based on the amount of value it
is able to generate for other people. focus yourself on generating value,
whether it is directly for consumers/businesses are a business, or as a proxy
working for a business and delivering value through the business.

A business cannot survive without generating value. Focus on the core of
business and work from there. Figure out ways you can most effectively deliver
value, then start from there.

------
terra_t
If you're in a place to make big $ w/o doing anything creative, you're in a
privileged position in life. Most people are making just a little $ w/o doing
anything creative or having any meaning in their life.

Doing anything that matters is a lot of work with just a slight sliver of
reward. If you're in a position to make it as a rent-seeker, I say milk it for
what it's worth.

~~~
stuck
Those are exactly my fathers words. I have definitely thought about this
option, my fear is that I will get to 35 without having done anything that I
care about in life.

~~~
terra_t
Well, I was being about 50% sarcastic there. Personally I've been forced into
entrepreneurship, somewhere around 37, because I realized my career wasn't
going to go anywhere (in terms of either doing work I could be proud of or
making $) unless I made some move.

At the age of 25, I just didn't have that sense of urgency.

------
AlexMuir
You're underselling yourself massively here. You are in the minority - you
can't move for tripping over developers. I can't get a decent
sales/marketing/ops guy for blood nor money. Find a startup that you believe
in and just approach the people behind it - send them a couple of ideas for
how you'd contribute and I'll bet they're interested.

------
sabj
The first step is knowing that you want to make a change, kudos on that! Great
questions and some good answers here, look forward to reading more. As someone
light on the programming side, always interested in responses on this kind of
question. Especially answers that go beyond, "hey, go learn to program more."

------
f1gm3nt
You really have a lot to contribute to a start up. I believe that each person
in a startup should bring skills to the table to help it grow. You being with
a business background could help create marketing plans, and secure funding
for the start up. There's sooo much you can do!

Hell, I would love to have you on my team =D

------
vital101
You need to find something that interests you and that you can care about.
When you do, find a company that does it and try to work for them. If there
isn't a company, make one. Obviously this is easier said than done, but it
always takes some extra effort to get out of a rut.

Best of luck!

------
wccrawford
"So my question is, how can I get out of this vicious circle of unfulfilling
work 9-20 (officially its 9-5 by I never get out of the office before 20) and
do something that I care about?"

Find something you care about. Start doing it.

Why do you have to make it harder than that?

~~~
stuck
Sounds easy. Finding something that you care about and that you can actually
contribute to is the hard part.

~~~
joshuakahn
It's deceptively simple; focus only on what's fun and interesting. No more
analysis needed.

------
iterationx
Leverage your current position to acquire new skills. Continue to acquire
skills until you feel moderately useful, then repost this question and list
the skills you have acquired, and the quality of advice will improve.

------
lzw
It sounds to me like you do not like doing work for others that doesn't fit a
personal passion. If this is the case then I think you will be able to solve
your problem by finding something you are passionate about, thinking of the
problems related to it, and coming up with a solution.

There are manta business ideas that do not require a room of engineers. I'm an
engineer and have many ideas, but the best method for finding the right one to
work on for me is to add artficial constraints.

Take your constraints and turn them into a filter for ideas.

One of the best ideas vie had in weeks turned out to be an online business
that requires only 2 pages on a website and an agreement. No real engineering
work and I could do it in a weekend.

But what is critical about that idea is that it addesses a problem in an area
that I'm passionate about in a very profitable and scalable way.

So, what are your constraints? \- you have a good job, no need to give that up
right now sovfind something you can do two days a week, at least until it gets
off the ground. \- you're not an engineer.... So either learn how to program-
which you can do if you want. You mitt never be as good as a natural, but
don't let that stop you. -- or find something that needs little engineering
thatbp you can either get a friend or outsource or stumble thru yourself. \-
you know a lot about business and your in Spain. What will the business
community need in spain in the next decade?

Or find some other passion -- running, whatever. The most economical unsound
hobbies still provide avenues for businesses even if it is making products to
help other hobbyists.

You have access to a lot of stats... Are there things there that people don't
generally know or realize? Trends to be exploited?

You are on the right track. Just dedicate yourself and look for the business
that fits your situation. What makes it a startup is the business being a
powder keg. But if you end up with a lifestyle business the first time out,
don't worry, you will learn so much doing it that you'll wonder why you paid
for and MBA!

You can always sell a lifestyle business to any umber of people whethe real
startup idea comes around... Or take your time and find a powder keg you can
light.

Either way, put your weekends into it, make it your passion, and quit your
regular job when you're earning more from the side job than the regular one.

