

Windows 8 hits RTM status - Empro
http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2012/08/01/windows-8-has-reached-the-rtm-milestone.aspx

======
eldavido
Since Windows 7, Microsoft has found themselves in the uncomfortable position
between a downmarket competitor (Android) with which they can't be price-
competitive, and a high-end, aspirational consumer brand (Apple) with non
price-sensitive customers.

Among all this, the teams who worked on this product (including several close
friends) really busted ass to get it right. I think this will be the best
version of Windows ever, and might be the first operating system that gets a
touch/keyboard+mouse hybrid UI right.

~~~
RivieraKid
Two distinct interfaces in one OS is right? Why not simply a single interface
that would adapt? Something like resposive web sites (google.com looks
differently on mobile, tablet and desktop).

~~~
eldavido
The higher-end Surface will ship with a full Windows 8 build that supports the
traditional desktop. It's meant for legacy customers with big investments in
traditional line-of-business stuff (banks, insurance, traders) who run .NET
apps on the desktop. This device is intended to compete with computers.

The lower-end surface will be for consumers. It will run Windows RT
(previously called WOA, "Windows-on-ARM"), and support Metro (touch) apps
exclusively. Main expected software distribution channel is the Windows app
store. This device is positioned against the iPad; it's an Apple-style
"shrinkwrap" experience that resets everything for the sake of this version,
which wouldn't ever fly in the business world.

I've been studying this extensively because my company (Crittercism) will have
a build of our mobile crash instrumentation on Windows RT from the day it
launches. Email me at david@crittercism.com if you want access to the beta.

------
RexRollman
I've tried both public releases and I have to say that I really don't care for
Windows 8. The user interface is so schizophrenic that it's not funny.

Sometimes I wonder if MS would have been better served offering two version:
one with the new metro UI and one without.

~~~
rlu
The whole point is to have devices in the near future which act as a tablet
and then can convert into a laptop or even desktop if it gets docked to a
large monitor and keyboard.

Metro mainly for touch, desktop mainly for mouse/keyboard. One device, 3
scenarios.

Does that not excite you at all?

~~~
randomfool
The big question is whether there's more similarity (today) between tablet and
laptop than tablet and phone. Microsoft has bet on the tablet-laptop combo
while Apple and Android have taken the tablet-phone route.

If Apple does indeed release a 7" iPad then this further cements the tablet-
phone approach. Microsoft will have difficulties competing here immediately
because Win8's UI is not made to scale down that small and it would be awkward
to release 7" devices running WP8 (2 different tablet OSes!).

Most people agree that there needs to be more continuity between desktop and
mobile and Microsoft is setting themselves up decently with Windows Phone 8
(based on the Win8 core and WinRT).

My concern with Windows 8 is that it took a cheap route to extend to tablet
UIs (the second shell, Metro), resulting in 3 UI platforms- desktop (classic
shell), tablet (Metro), phone (WP8), rather than 2.

------
Metrop0218
Exciting times.

My predictions: Developers download it on August 15th and we'll see many
reviews like we've seen about the RP. Some will hate it, some will love it.
The fact that it's going to be much less buggy than RP will help a lot.

Then on October 26th, all of the new touch devices will launch. At that point,
we'll actually see why they focused on a touch interface, and things will make
more sense. Some reviewers should install this on a touchscreen device and
give it a proper review before that date though, it'd be nice to get some
insight.

~~~
WiseWeasel
My predictions are that the Surface with Windows RT will still be buggy, and
will have very little software support at launch, leading to poor reviews and
sales. Surface Pro will have good reviews when that comes out three months
later, and _that_ will truly showcase the design of Windows 8. Unfortunately,
the bad press from the Surface and relatively high price compared to an entry-
level iPad will hurt sales. For many potential desktop and laptop customers,
however, Windows 8 will be frustrating, plagued with poor reviews, and there
will be a huge market for computers preloaded with Windows 7 for many years to
come.

Here's a review of the touch aspects of Windows 8, btw:

[http://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2012/07/does-w...](http://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2012/07/does-windows-8-succeed-as-a-true-tablet-operating-system/)

~~~
MatthewPhillips
I predict Windows RT will have more apps at launch than Android tablet
currently exist.

~~~
WiseWeasel
Oh man, I'll take that bet.

~~~
MatthewPhillips
I don't know why that's so surprising. Android tablets have only gotten any
attention since the Kindle Fire came out. Windows 8 was announced before that,
in September. Even if Windows tablets completely bomb, there's still going to
be millions of PCs with Metro on them and the Windows Store staring in their
face. And even though Metro apps are (somewhat) less useful on a PC, sheer
number of users tells you that there is _some_ market there. Whereas before
the Kindle there wasn't much of an Android tablet market. And the Kindle
really only got developers to stick their toes in the water, Nexus 7 is what
solidifies it as a platform worth developing on. So in my mind, Windows 8/RT
has had developer support longer than Android tablets.

~~~
WiseWeasel
Windows RT is Windows for the ARM processor. Software for Windows RT must be
compiled specifically for the platform, and software for Windows 8, whether
Metro or not, will not run in Windows RT.

Why would a developer spend time working on Windows RT software when there are
zero customers for it, rather than for iOS or Android? Those Nexus 7 tablets
you mention are flying off the shelves faster than Acer or Asus or whoever can
make them. You can't even get a Windows RT device to test your software on
yet.

~~~
upthedale
This isn't correct. From <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinRT> "Programs can be
written using Windows Runtime that will run on both the X86 and ARM editions
of Windows 8 without modification."

The entire point of WinRT (read: Metro-style apps) is the you can code it
once, and it will run on either platform.

> Why would a developer spend time working on Windows RT software

Because they don't have to spend any extra time over writing the same
application for x86-based Windows 8

~~~
WiseWeasel
Ah, thanks for the correction. Apparently it is possible to support both x86
and ARM if you write Metro apps using Windows Runtime, or WinRT, not to be
confused with Windows RT (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT>). The
wording (" _can be_ written") seems like a qualifier to me however, with
potential gotchas. I guess the question would be whether existing Metro
software is in fact compatible with Windows RT. Then there's the fact that
there simply isn't much Metro software available in the first place.

~~~
upthedale
The link I gave was just my lazy attempt at citing _something_. Wikipedia is
hardly reliable source No. 1.

In reality, it is my understanding the Windows RT (the OS), can only run
applications designed for Metro/WinRT (the runtime). That is, _any_ Metro
application out there should be compatible with both Windows 8 and Windows RT
(the OS).

(There may well be gotchas around reusing some native libraries, but I suspect
these would be few and far between).

So to your earlier 'bet' you went against...

> ...Windows RT will have more apps at launch than Android tablet currently
> exist.

Well Windows RT (the OS) should have the same number of (Metro-style) apps as
Windows 8, given my understanding from above. I'd expect this to be a pretty
high number once the devices hit, given that Developer Preview (and therefore
the tools to make these apps) have been out for nearly a year now.

Counting the number of Android tablet apps is more difficult. I wouldn't count
the full total of Android apps, only ones optimised for a larger screen. First
you have to define it. On Google Play's store, I could only find one list of
apps for Tablets, which only has around 250 apps:
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/collection/tablet_feature...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/collection/tablet_featured?start=240&num=24)
(Given that I was able to get to the 11th page).

If betting the number of Windows RT apps against 250, I know which I'd put my
money on.

Of course, there may well be more than 250. How on earth does one find them
though?

(In my quick searching, I came across this article from the honeycomb days,
which still seems to apply:
[http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/01/mystery-how-
many-a...](http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/01/mystery-how-many-android-
tablet-apps/))

~~~
MatthewPhillips
Windows Store has 100 apps in the "All Stars" section, so I'm assuming the
total number is greater than that (by how much I don't know). Also,
registration is currently invite-only, so I would suspect there are many
people like myself developing apps but are unable to submit them.

------
luminaobscura
i really dont understand why metro apps run full screen on desktop pc. i have
a 30" 2560x1600 monitor and metro apps seem ridiculous. i have 4 million
pixels but i cannot see three metro apps together. what a silly idea.

~~~
murki
You can if you drag the top of the full screen app to takea portion on the
side. At least you can have two together like this.

~~~
luminaobscura
woow :)

what if i want a classic desktop app and metro app together?

~~~
murki
your imagination is the limit!

------
GrandTheftR
I am actually excited with the potential of W8/Surface, a tablet can do real
work is a win for me. I like the vision of the original TabletPC, but they
failed to execute it. Seems they are getting it right this time based on
playing with preview.

------
hxf148
I think the hate is a bit reactionary and the popular argument to take because
well it's the Internet and seemingly hates change.

The Metro layer is the most useful Start Menu yet and the Explorer / Desktop
ui is there as usual, faster than ever. It certainly is a presentation change
when you first load it up but I predict that most people will get the hang of
it pretty quickly. I did. I don't feel much of a disconnect honestly. It's
just a bit different but not in a bad way overall.

It's a OS ready for new / touch devices yet to come and will probably run apps
from 1990 if you really need it. Windows 7 was the perfection of Windows 95
and this feels like the progress that comes after that.

~~~
commandar
I disagree. If there's a reactionary element here, it's the Windows 8 design.
It's Microsoft trying to shoehorn mobile elements into their desktop OS
because they're not competitive in the mobile market.

Having _used_ W8 for a few months now, the problem is that the end product is
half-baked, inconsistent, and confusing.

I suppose you can call that reactionary hate of new UIs, but I'm a guy that
used OS X when it was still running on PowerPC, was an early proponent of the
UI changes in Vista, always thought the nerd hate for GNOME2 when it first
came out was silly and thinks that the current hate for Unity is equally so,
still thinks that WebOS was the most usable mobile OS to be released, etc.

I've spent the past decade going out of my way to expose myself to as many new
interfaces as I can get my hands on, and I'm generally quite receptive to
change. Outside of the improved Explorer, I haven't been able to find very
much at all to like about Windows 8.

------
bitwize
This is going to be a marmite OS for sure.

Microsoft has weathered that storm with Windows 95, though, so they should
really tart up the marketing with licensed songs and sitcom actresses. Just
really hammer home that this is what the future of the PC is going to be, and
hey, Penny from _The Big Bang Theory_ is a PC and loves her some Windows 8.
Then once we've all gotten into the groove with Surfaces and touch screen
media centers from HP, the criticisms will quiet down some.

------
topbanana
The way I see it, the success of Windows 8 is pinned on the success of the
tablets and phones. If they're really great products, at the right price,
people will want more of the same on their desktop. I don't see this as a
straight desktop refresh.

------
benzofuran
I don't want to put it badly, but I feel like microsoft is really fumbling
this by putting 2 months between the software going into circulation and the
hardware it's been designed for launching. I'm about in the market for a new
laptop or possibly a surface pro, but I have the feeling this is going to
leave a bad taste in people's mouthes as Win8 on nontouch hardware isn't
anything special, at least what I've seen with the DP.

~~~
Aaronontheweb
The time between RTM (release to manufacturing) and GA (general availability)
is such because OEMs need 2 months to take the gold image of Windows 8, image
it onto the tens of millions of new PCs that will be sold during the Holiday
season, and then ship those devices back to all of the retail stores where
they will be sold.

The October 26th date effectively acts as an embargo to make sure that all of
the OEMs get enough time to get their devices into market and can start
selling at the same time. It would make the press / sales cycle extremely
difficult to manage if the devices were available only from a few faster
moving OEMs in a smaller number of markets, versus having everything
everywhere at once.

Hopefully that adds a little more clarity to it.

------
hdivider
I've been using Windows 8 for months, and while I've initially had the same
reaction about that bloody schizophrenic UI, it's not hard to configure
everything to look and feel almost exactly like Windows 7.

What actual users will say about the new WinRT/WinDesktop model is beyond me.
I imagine that the Windows Store will quickly fill with plenty of useful apps,
so that the pain of living exclusively in WinRT will lessen somewhat.

~~~
ktizo
_I've been using Windows 8 for months, and while I've initially had the same
reaction about that bloody schizophrenic UI, it's not hard to configure
everything to look and feel almost exactly like Windows 7._

So are you saying there are two horrible things, and only one is even usable?

~~~
hdivider
Maybe I should have expanded a little. What I meant was that while the WinRT
environment is horrible to use on a touchless desktop environment (for me, at
least), Windows 8 can easily be changed to feel almost exactly like Windows 7
(which I can use very efficiently).

At the same time, whenever I have a touch-based device I can still make use of
all the WinRT features.

Long story short, Windows 8 may look like a UI disaster at first, but for devs
at least it's almost irrelevant because you can change pretty much everything,
and get used to or ignore the rest.

Like I said earlier though, I'm not sure how much reconfiguration the
mainstream user wants to do, or how easily they'll get used to WinRT.

------
re_todd
I was shocked for a second, I thought it said "Windows 8 hits RTFM status"!

~~~
Gormo
Given the fact that many interface functions in the Windows 8 UI are
undiscoverable from within the UI, and require advance knowledge of mouse
gestures, etc., this isn't quite so far off from the truth.

~~~
Aaronontheweb
"Given the fact that many interface functions in the Windows 8 UI are
undiscoverable from within the UI"

such as?

~~~
pchivers
-how to exit Metro apps

-how to shut down the computer

~~~
freehunter
Did people have trouble figuring this out on their iPad when they first got
it? It's pretty much the same deal. Press the Windows key on the front of the
tablet/keyboard.

~~~
endersshadow
I'll give you an example from this morning. Guy in my office wanted to print a
PDF from within Windows Reader. Know where the print button in Windows Reader
is? Nowhere. You have to press Ctrl+P to bring up the print dialog.

How, exactly, is that going to work on a tablet?

Also, since when did we have to think about how a tablet (with one button, and
hence, limited options) would handle a task, when GUIs have been handling the
same task the same way for decades?

~~~
freehunter
_How, exactly, is that going to work on a tablet?_

Has Microsoft ever shipped an OS without a tutorial? Also, how easy/intuitive
is it to print from an iPad?

 _Also, since when did we have to think about how a tablet would handle a
task?_

Since people started buying iPads. Microsoft could continue to cater
specifically to you then go out of business, or they could cater to both
markets and give you the option of using a desktop with all your traditional
printer options. Both of these things exist.

------
DenisM
What about Visual Studio? RTM as well?

~~~
facorreia
Visual Studio 2012 and .NET 4.5 are complete and will be on MSDN on Aug 15th.

[http://blogs.msdn.com/b/somasegar/archive/2012/08/01/visual-...](http://blogs.msdn.com/b/somasegar/archive/2012/08/01/visual-
studio-2012-and-net-4-5-complete.aspx)

