
Is Facebook eavesdropping on phone conversations? - how-about-this
http://news10.com/2016/05/24/is-facebook-eavesdropping-on-your-phone-conversations/
======
onewaystreet
No.

This is one of those tech urban legends that keeps popping up. Facebook does
have an opt-in feature that can identify what music, tv show or movie you are
listening to or watching, but that's it.

[http://newsroom.fb.com/news/2014/05/a-new-optional-way-to-
sh...](http://newsroom.fb.com/news/2014/05/a-new-optional-way-to-share-and-
discover-music-tv-and-movies/)

[https://www.facebook.com/help/iphone-
app/369513256545845](https://www.facebook.com/help/iphone-app/369513256545845)

~~~
lunula
This could be rigorously studied. A group of people could attempt to plant
false advertising opportunities in their speech and then measure the frequency
at which related ads/posts arrive in their feed. I would trust something like
this more than an assertion by FB that this is not happening.

~~~
chris_wot
I think that if Facebook was caught doing this after they specifically denied
it, then executives would probably be going to jail.

I think if Facebook say they aren't doing this, then they aren't doing it.

~~~
emerongi
Even IF this was true, do you really think the executives on their meetings go
like: "Okay, if we deny this, we will go to jail. So let's tell everyone that
we are spying on them!"

No. Denying is the only smart move here.

~~~
chris_wot
Just to be clear, are you positing that Facebook is actually doing what the
article accuses it of doing?

------
nutmeg
Another anecdotal-data-of-sample-size-one, my wife was at a bar and struck up
a conversation with another person to whom she had no connections. After she
left, Facebook suggested this person as a friend.

The other person may have searched for her on Facebook, causing her to be
listed as a possible friend. Or perhaps Facebook uses location data to group
people that are in the same location for an extended period of time.

It would be interesting if someone at Facebook could provide some insight into
this.

~~~
cylinder
Why do people keep the Facebook app installed? I use it in the web browser and
it works just fine, while sort of sandboxing it within Chrome.

~~~
giancarlostoro
Because my phone wont let me uninstall it [0] and it's not just on my specific
phone, other manufacturers do the same. I also cannot uninstall Amazon or the
5 other completely useless apps it brings, Facebook Messenger and Instagram
are ingrained into my phone which is annoying. I wish rooting and setting up a
custom ROM wasn't a painful experience or I would do both, but I like getting
updates, which rooting stops, and I'm not too sure a ROM supports updating
properly.

[0]:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/androidapps/comments/3catb0/i_cant_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/androidapps/comments/3catb0/i_cant_uninstall_facebook/)

~~~
Qiasfah
Have you tried disabling the apps instead of uninstalling them?

I've had good luck with this on stock roms when you can't uninstall the
carrier's apps. Settings » Apps » All » Application Name » Disable

Technically the app is still there, but it can't be launched and doesn't
appear in the list of apps.

------
Herald_MJ
Can't speak for Android, but on iOS it is not possible for an app to "listen"
to your microphone unless it is in the foreground, and you have explicitly
given the app permission to do this (the first time the app attempts to do
so). It can also be revoked at any time without removing the app.

The only way around this restriction would be using a private API Apple could
have provided. Given that Apple has even integrated some aspects of Facebook
into iOS, this is not totally impossible, but it's hard to imagine Apple
having an incentive in allowing Facebook to passively record and transmit all
user audio. To date, Apple actually seem to be pretty good at protecting
user's privacy.

~~~
joshstrange
Unless Heard has stopped working then this is not 100% true
[http://www.heardapp.com/](http://www.heardapp.com/) It may put a banner on
the top bar but I've used this app and it worked just fine.

~~~
koyote
Very off-topic but what is your real-world use case for such an app? The site
lists a couple but most of those seem to make more sense when using a
recording app in the traditional, explicit, way (e.g. "we are having a
meeting, I will record this meeting").

~~~
joshstrange
So honestly it's best use case is "gotcha". As in you didn't know I was
recording and you said something stupid and now I have a recording. Likewise
if you are talking to someone and you say something along the lines of "Are
you sure about that?" or "Can you confirm this is what/how you want me to do
this" and then you record the audio for later incase they come back and say "I
never said that".

For myself I went the extra mile to just have my laptop record ALL audio but
then felt this was a little too douchey/NSA-y and disabled the whole thing and
wiped the audio. I wanted such a system not only for "You said this then and
now you are saying that now" but to remember things I had said myself. I
wanted to hook it up to STT to have a searchable archive of what I had said
but again it was an invasion of privacy (to people around me) that I
personally couldn't stomach.

~~~
imbeau
Besides the creepiness, the law around recording people without them knowing
(one-party consent) is state-by-state

~~~
EdHominem
As for creepiness, you know what's creepy? People saying something and then
lying about it later.

You'll be happy having the audio even if there are restrictions. Simply don't
tell anyone about it until the benefits (saving your ass) outweigh the
drawbacks (potential charges).

------
tlrobinson
_“That is kind of weird,” she laughed. “I’m still not so sure this isn’t just
coincidence. I don’t think Facebook is really listening to our
conversations.”_

This is a terrible article. There's an easy way to figure out if it's a
coincidence... repeat the experiment.

~~~
capitalsigma
99% sure this is not a coincidence, here's my theory: people's IRL
conversations can be pretty reliably predicted by their Facebook
conversations, so targeted ads based on messages tend to be surprisingly
relevant to the _next_ thing they talk about IRL.

Example: my girlfriend was given a box of Flonase by her parents and
immediately got a Facebook ad for it. She had not mentioned Flonase anywhere
on Facebook ever. Spoopy eavesdropping? No --- she _did_ talk on Facebook
about her ENT appointment that morning. And what products might be relevant
for someone going to an ENT doctor? Allergy medication.

And in cases like that, it's very likely that your two recommendations from
different sources will happen to match --- what brand of medication are your
parents likely to recommend? A popular one that spends a lot of $ on
advertising. What brand is likely to buy ads? A popular one that spends a lot
of $ on advertising.

~~~
dontstealmyname
See this seems reasonable.. however I was once playing Battlefield Hardline
raving about how awesome the camera's were for whatever I was doing and was
then presented with security camera ads shortly after while browsing Facebook
on my desktop. I have no interest or need for security cameras or even any
reason to source information about them online. I double checked my web
history and couldn't find anything related either, plus I had not had any
conversations about cameras on Facebook. I remarked about how creepy it was
over Team Speak and had 2 other people comment about similar experiences
recently (at that time) as well. They claimed the only device they had near
them was a phone at the time and the conversation was spontaneous.

~~~
witty_username
See frequency illusion.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Frequ...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Frequency_illusion)

------
pmontra
Just use the mobile web site. I'm doing it because of the zillion of
permissions the FB app ask and it is good enough.

However they could do it with Whatsapp. There is no alternative to that.

~~~
eddz
There are plenty of alternatives to Whatsapp. I don't even have it installed
on my phone.

~~~
therealmarv
It's not about the program. It's about the network... you cannot switch a
network when all your friends and colleagues use WhatsApp and their groups.
But I'm happy WhatsApp is more secure than most of the alternatives with good
E2E encryption support.

~~~
drcross
> with good E2E encryption support.

They say there is good E2E encryption. Great claims require great proof.

~~~
Aoyagi
The only great proof would be opensourcing it completely, and I don't see that
happening.

Then again, Moxie said he himself oversaw the implementation of the encryption
and that he has trust in it...

~~~
awqrre
Even if they implemented correctly, it doesn't mean that they didn't add a
backdoor for the government.

~~~
Aoyagi
To quote him:

 _" I was very closely involved for the integration, had full access to the
source code, did plenty of review, and have a lot of confidence in the
engineers that are maintaining it.

There are plenty of engineers in the world who are capable of inspecting the
binaries they're distributing, so it would be incredibly risky of them to
inject surveillance code client side."_

~~~
awqrre
I guess that the governmenet doesn't even need a backdoor in the Facebook
app... Since Google has admin privileges on your device and is in bed with the
NSA, they could go that route instead.

------
petr_tik
As one of the people said below, there is an easy way to test the validity of
that statement – take 30+ participants with randomly selected backgrounds and
friend networks and break them into 2 groups for different ‘trigger word’ and
then study their newsfeeds.

It seems that there is a subgenre of geek-oriented clickbaiting, which has a
strong claim about something tech-related like AMAZGOOGBOOK with little proof
or scientific study. We, as a community, can be better at identifying and
pointing out deficiencies in the scientific method, instead of saying ‘I’m not
sure they do it, but it would be scary, if they did’.

The story about uber tracking your battery status is legit and has been proven
and I don’t remember it climbing as high as no 2 on the front page, so IMO we
can readjust our BS-meters.

~~~
x5n1
I think the days of giving corporations benefit of doubt are long gone. Now if
outrageous claim is made by any sort of reasonably credible source, you can be
sure there is an ounce of truth to it. So yes FB probably does do this, and
people claiming conspiracy to discredit this are the crazy ones.

~~~
jrockway
Finally, I can tell them that _they_ are the crazy ones. I _told you_ General
Motors was breaking into my house at night and reorganizing the books on my
bookshelf!

------
piyush_soni
Android M above (<strike>N</strike>) you can disable various permissions asked
by an app. I have disabled everything for Facebook (except storage). No
location, contacts, microphone, calendar, phone, sms or even camera. You're
not allowed here, facebook. So it can't do much damage for at least those
versions of Android.

~~~
abcd_f
Makes you feel being totally in control, doesn't it?

~~~
piyush_soni
I understand you might be saying that sarcastically, but yes - as far as these
specific permissions on my phone are concerned, I feel being in control (e.g.
I _know_ it can't record my voice even if it wants). I have otherwise given a
lot of my information to both Facebook and Google, and I'm aware of the
potential consequences.

------
0x0
Wouldn't it be possible to determine this by jailbreaking + decrypting the
facebook .ipa, in a combination with watching the network traffic?

------
haywirez
[https://mbasic.facebook.com](https://mbasic.facebook.com) has been amazing
for me. I don't have Messenger nor Facebook on my phone, it's a faster and
data plan friendly alternative. Not to mention no notifications.

~~~
roywiggins
I use Metal, which Appifies the mobile site. It even supports notifications, I
think, but I turned them off.

[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nam.fbwrap...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nam.fbwrapper&hl=en)

------
13hours
The impact on battery life alone would be insane if this wee true I'm
guessing.

~~~
dawnerd
Funny you mention that:

[http://bgr.com/2016/02/01/facebook-android-app-battery-
life-...](http://bgr.com/2016/02/01/facebook-android-app-battery-life-
performance/)

[http://www.cnet.com/how-to/improve-iphone-battery-life-
delet...](http://www.cnet.com/how-to/improve-iphone-battery-life-delete-the-
facebook-app/)

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/facebook-iphone-
battery-...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/facebook-iphone-battery-
life_us_56b8b6c5e4b08069c7a7fc54)

Now is that because of voice? Very unlikely.

~~~
yoz-y
On iPhone the problem was that FB left a bug (according to FB) in the
application which made it play silent audio in background. Incidentally this
meant that the app was able to bypass the iOS restrictions on background
processes.

Whether it really was a bug or intentional is a subject of debate though.

~~~
jchendy
Why would they intentionally play silent audio?

~~~
yoz-y
On iOS your application can not stay fully active for more than 10 minutes.
After that time it gets into suspended state and can be waken up only when it
receives a notification (and the wake up time also has time limitations).
There are only three exceptions to this rule: active GPS usage for maps and
trackers, active voice calling apps (for ringing) and music apps that are
actually playing audio. Silent audio thus enables Facebook to stay alive
forever.

This had also the effect that when you were listening to music or a podcast
and opened the FB app it would stop playing your audio.

------
ricardobeat
I've had this happen to me so many times, that I wouldn't be surprised if it
was true. At this point in history it seems that any surveillance that is
technically possible _will_ be done.

------
jerf
I see two ways to do this, sending audio to Facebook or doing speech-to-text
on the phone.

Sending audio to Facebook would be so obvious that presumably somebody would
have noticed by now.

So that leaves speech-to-text on the phone. However, if that was on "all the
time" or even some significant fraction, wouldn't that take an enormous amount
of battery power? I'm not sure exactly how much juice on-handset speech-to-
text takes but it seems like it would be nontrivial.

On the flip side, I do have to admit that Facebook probably already shows up
on the top of most people's CPU and data listings already, but, still, it
seems like this could easily be an order of magnitude beyond even that for
many people. Surely someone by now would have noticed that they didn't even
open Facebook today but it's the top battery draw and/or data user for the
day?

Forget _whether_ Facebook wants to do this. I'll take it as read that, duh,
yes they do. The question in my mind is _can_ they actually do this without
being noticed somewhere other than a local news channel? I mean this question
seriously; as you can see above I've already sort of laid out the parameters,
so I'd ask that replies here not just "guess" how much juice speech
recognition takes, I already did, please tell me if you _know_. (I can't
enforce this request, of course.)

------
deadtofu
How do we know this isn't double speak?

Maybe they aren't listening to the conversations per se, but for an audio
beacons in television and radio?

[http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/your-p...](http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/your-
phone-is-literally-listening-to-your-tv/416712/)

~~~
jfdk
I think you probably need to read 1984 again. Doublespeak is euphamistic
political propaganda language.

------
dawhizkid
Pro Tip: Just use the mobile web version of Facebook.

~~~
mortenlarsen
Yes, that or Face Slim.

[https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.indywidualni...](https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.indywidualni.fblite)

------
defenestration
For me, this is one step too far. If my phone is just laying around, it should
not record the sound in the room and send it to Facebook by default. Sounds
like a fake story, would be worried if this is true.

~~~
yeukhon
I tried to reproduce it by keep saying education education. It didn't pick it
up. Tried with FB and Messenger. Maybe it doesn't work for me...

------
Karlozkiller
I think it was about 2 years ago that the Facebook android app requested
permission to your microphone? As soon as I saw that I warned everyone I knew
that they could be listened in on, and uninstalled the app on my phone, using
FB through a browser if need be.

I find it interesting how people accept such things without a question. But I
guess articles like these are good even if they're late to the party.

------
atdt
This makes good business sense, and it's going to happen, often enough to
become banal. We have to come up with laws to protect ourselves.

------
bunkydoo
Well, either we are going to see a Facebook exodus happen due to privacy
concerns (unlikely) or now almost everyone is comfortable being watched 24/7
and the next wave of apps _cough_ SNAPCHAT will learn to exploit people
recording every moment of their lives thinking it actually goes away.
(unfortunate)

------
neo2006
Google have access to all your mails, web search, documents, travels,
habits... Facebook have access to your friends, family, pictures... And you
guys worry about them listening to your conversation...I mean most of the info
they gather with that they already have them by other means

------
brown9-2
This article has a single anecdote whose source isn't even convinced of the
veracity of the headline:

 _“That is kind of weird,” she laughed. “I’m still not so sure this isn’t just
coincidence. I don’t think Facebook is really listening to our
conversations.”_

------
dzink
They've done this to me as well. Months ago a conversation with a medical key
word I have never used in my life led to that key word being added to my
"interests" on Facebook that evening (i groomed my interest tags to make FB
more bearable at the time). That day I realised they must be listening somehow
and uninstalled the FB app. Also, every time I add or update a phone contact
on iPhone, I am asked to add my FB password - they are digging where they
don't belong.

~~~
tamana
This is absurd . If they were _secretly_ recording you they wouldn't obviously
throw it in your face immediately.

------
tiplus
It sounds like a creepier version of google now which listens for many
keywords instead of just one, is it not?

Question for the experts: How much battery would it actually drain if the mic
was constantly activated and the app was scanning for keywords. I mean, you
could limit the scanning to times were someone actually speaks and otherwise
remain in a sleep mode. The keywords are then synced only when the user opens
the app.

Did anyone ever check if something similar was mentioned in the google now
TOS?

~~~
khedoros
Some devices _are_ always listening for "OK, Google", if you turn that feature
on (Nexus 6, Nexus 9, and Samsung Note 4, according to a Google help page
[0]). I vaguely remember reading something about a subprocessor in those
devices, looking for that phrase, to cut down on battery usage. Most of the
speech recognition processing happens remotely on Google's servers, though.

[0]
[https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/6031948?hl=en](https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/6031948?hl=en)

~~~
TeMPOraL
Funny, I'd actually _want_ that feature in my phone (S7). It could easily turn
Google Now into single-room Echo alternative. Without it, Google Now's voice
features are pretty useless - if I have the phone unlocked and in my hands, I
may as well type what I want and get to it faster.

~~~
khedoros
I've got it disabled on my phone, and you couldn't pay me to have something
like an Echo at home. I feel like it would be another underused tech device
I'd have to find an outlet for, and I don't ever want to feel reliant on cloud
services.

------
egb
I had this happen to me a while back and came up with a fairly simple possible
explanation/implementation. Facebook could look at the time and geo stamps in
uploaded photos to determine who was in the same place at the same time, and
offer those people up as potential friends to add.

------
skizm
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc)

------
billiam
tl;dr It is probably common Wifi in a specific setting.

Cmon, HNers. You're better than this. This obsesssion with "listening" to what
you say is so twentieth century. Metadata beats data anytime. with the
surround of information that comes from auth, apps, and FB usage, there's no
problem associating people that meet each other, then immediately check FB.

------
Mandatum
No, but it does listen to your audio when you have your profile/post active
for a period of time.

------
punnerud
Both Messenger AND Instagram is also listening to the microphone in addition
to the Facebook app.

------
acutelyobtuse
Yes.

(It's electronic communications, your assumption should be, without a doubt,
that someone is listening, seeing, hearing.)

~~~
tuxracer
If you RTFA you'd see the claim is that Facebook is activating the microphone
to listen to non-electronic verbal communication you're having nearby your
phone.

~~~
dave2000
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter at all if there's any evidence
that a given claim about a particular version of an app is being tapped; you
have to assume that they all are, all the time, and act accordingly. You're
never going to know, and certainly not ahead of time; best to assume they're
all tapped. Which, as we all know post-Snowden, is the only reasonable
assumption.

~~~
tuxracer
Most people are aware at this point that non-end-to-end encrypted electronic
conversation is being tapped. It seems like a new development to extend that
assumption to non-electronic verbal communication you're having with another
person physically in the same room as you. Again, communication _not occurring
via_ any electronic means whatsoever. Just so happens your phone was in your
pocket while you were non-electronically verbally communicating with someone
physically sitting in front of you.

------
TryAgainMaybe
It makes me cringe so bad that many HackerNews commentators believe this
nonsense. This is why I don't tell friends and family that I use HackerNews.

~~~
justratsinacoat
DAE CRINGE?!

------
thieving_magpie
So she mentions safaris in a conversation and a facebook ad for safaris pops
up.

I guess we're just going to ignore the fact that she could have been looking
up safaris in Africa the day prior to their little demonstration? At no point
do they indicate it was a randomly chosen topic.

