
My company: 5 months work from home, one month work in a 5 star hotel - maxklein
http://blog.cubeofm.com/my-company-5-months-work-from-home-one-month
======
plinkplonk
I don't think this particular model is all that great, but I applaud
maxklein's willingness to work with a distributed/remote team.

[ rant begins ]

For people who (for whatever reason) can't move to Silicon Valley, it is
excruciating to watch all the cool startups in the USA and be stuck with an
outsourced enterprise maintenance crap job because that is all that is
available locally.

It sucks when you read a startup dev job description, know that you'd be great
at it and the very last sentence is "you should be a US resident. No remote
working". I understand why people would want that, but it sucks anyway :-P.

I am luckier than most developers in Bangalore - I work on Machine Learning/AI
projects, which is where my expertise lies - but working alone is a _bit_ of a
drag and if I could work for (just as an example) ReThinkDB without having to
move to the USA, I would apply in flash. Working with some of the people I
"met" on HN would be awesome. I would happily take a paycut.

Once my present project ends, I'll probably do something like this.

[ rant ends ]

Nutshell: I am very appreciative of any and all attempts by HN folks to work
distributed/remote. Go @maxklein!

~~~
phaedrus
I share your frustration. Although I do live in the USA, not all regions of
the USA are equally prosperous. Though patriotism leads people here to shut
their eyes to it, the economy in the state I live in has more in common with
third world countries than first world. Yet my wife refuses to move to any
other state, so I'm forced to watch countless opportunities to advance my
career slide by because they don't allow you to work remotely, while I plod
along in a job much less technically interesting than what I'm capable of.
It's not a case of fewer engineers competing for jobs at a smaller number of
technology companies, it's a case of fewer engineers and exactly zero
technology companies. It doesn't matter if there are also fewer
skilled/educated workers to compete against, it's still _division by zero_.

~~~
rortian
1\. Please show me a state with a per capta gdp that approaches one from the
third world.

2\. Your wife may be forcing you to stay in state to be with her. Either
celebrate your marriage and don't bitch about how it's bringing you down or
move on.

~~~
derefr
It's not a dichotomy; you could equally tell his wife to "celebrate their
marriage and not bitch" about moving to somewhere with more opportunities. You
should not think about someone's happiness, that does not also think about
your own.

~~~
rortian
I think you making a totally fair point about the symmetry of the situation.
However, I think his attitude (and by symmetry probably hers too) is an
unhealthy one. He can always think, "were it not for her attitude I, errr we,
could be more successful". This is quite a negative thought to hold in your
head with someone that you should have an amicable rapport with.

>You should not think about someone's happiness, that does not also think
about your own.

I guess you can live by that, but I certainly don't like the dynamics of this
towards the limit. If somebody is hurting I don't mind trying to say
something. Suffering isn't cool.

~~~
doki_pen
Are you married? There is much more to marriage then love. It is a legally
binding contract and there are serious consequences for breaking it. Not to
mention the social and emotional consequences. There are usually children
involved.

~~~
jdunck
If that is your line of reasoning for staying married, it's an unhealthy
situation, probably not good for the kids, etc.

People in such situations should focus on communication and progress, possibly
with the help of a therapist. Or end the marriage. But plodding along blaming
your spouse for your terrible lot in life is no way to raise a family (or save
some money).

I've been married 10 years. It's up and down, but in the end, it's what you
make of it.

~~~
doki_pen
Point taken, but sometimes people just like to bitch about things. It doesn't
always mean much. There is always a struggle between selfishness and
selflessness. Sometimes marriage is a zero sum game.

------
starkfist
I've worked at a company that operated like this. It's great if the company is
the only thing going in your life, and that's how you like it. It's not great
if you want to take a night class, or have a regular volunteer obligation (I
was a math tutor) or play on an after work sports team, or are in an amateur
orchestra, or have a regular fitness training regimen, or are dating, or have
a garden, or a dog, or simply don't like living in hotels. For me, the end
result was having a life not unlike George Clooney's in "Up in The Air."

Edit: it's actually quite similar to a management consultant's schedule.
Except instead of Bangkok, you end up in Houston.

~~~
gaius
Consulting is far more brutal. Out Monday, back Friday, every week, unless
you're between projects. On the upside, you do get weekends off. On the
downside, you'll spend all weekend either sleeping or doing chores.

I did get to go to some cool places as a consultant, but the truth is,
airports, taxis, meeting rooms and hotels are the same everywhere in the
world. Having great colleagues is a must, there are some good times to be had.
But you can't live like that for more than a few years without going crazy.

One competitor company of ours would enter a new territory by renting a nice
house in that country and a few people from other offices would all go live
there. Like MTV's _The Real World_. They would be the nucleus and the rest of
the office would be made up of traveling consultants and local hires.

------
brk
The concept seems cool, but if people really do have family lives, a month
away is too long (IMO).

I also think the 5 month cycle between trips could cause a lot of repetitions
of falling back into a boredom mode.

Seems more like 1 week together every 8 weeks would be more manageable and
logical overall.

~~~
maxklein
Yes, but very expensive. The trips are not cheap at $700 a flight.

Ship captains and oil rig engineers leave their family for 6 weeks or more at
a time. There are some people for whom this type of travel is workable, and
some for whom it is not. If oil rig engineers can keep families and be away so
much, so can programmers.

~~~
mrkurt
Oil rig engineers have to be away that much, or they're no longer going to be
oil rig engineers. They also make disproportionately more money doing that
particular job than they would if they did something else.

There's no natural requirement for programmers to leave their home/families
(unless they're consulting). I suspect you're not giving your employees
"hazard" pay either, are you?

If it were me, I'd want to bring my family along and turn it into a work
vacation.

~~~
maxklein
But what if this is condition of the job? When you apply, you are informed
that you have to do this. If its unacceptable, you simply do something else.

~~~
omgsean
Then you might miss out on a lot of talented people, because being away for a
month at a time is a strange requirement for a programmer. Most people have
families, friends, significant others, pets, or WoW guilds they simply don't
want to be away from for a month at a time. The emotional toll of homesickness
could very easily end up costing you.

Not to mention, if your employees are in committed relationships you're also
subjecting them to a month without sex. I don't know if it's worth $2800/month
to have two months a year where your employees are homesick and sexually
frustrated.

~~~
patio11
There are a lot of talented people in the world and Max needs to hire, hmm,
five or ten of them? Being a Japanese salaryman probably wouldn't sound that
attractive to the average American but there are a few of us defective types
who do/did it anyway.

(Speaking of quirky individual preferences: I'm a strict Catholic. Two months,
huh. <dry>How ever would I cope.</dry> You can probably find five or ten other
people with similar preferences -- it is a big Internet.)

~~~
blackguardx
How would being religious affect anything? Aren't there Catholic churches in
pretty much every major city?

~~~
blackguardx
I'm an atheist ex-catholic and I don't get the joke. Why would you downvote me
for a legitimate question?

~~~
jemfinch
I think he's an unmarried Catholic, so he's not having sex already; two months
of not having sex amidst a lifetime of not having sex isn't really an issue
for him.

He'll change his tune pretty quickly, I'm sure, after getting married (from
one "strict" Catholic to another).

------
djb_hackernews
I like how he refers to his "programmer" like it's his pet monkey.

Sounds like a great plan, but is it sustainable? Is it really solving the
problem?

Edit: iPhone apps. Not sustainable. OP even agrees.
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1060019>

~~~
ukdm
If the company generates 40k a month without expanding, and the break costs
2.8K a month then it is sustainable. But the trips are a clear aid to
expansion meaning potentially a lot more revene generation. So it's actually
in the interests of the company to do this from what he is saying.

~~~
djb_hackernews
eh, it was 40k for just one month. No mention of previous months and not
enough information to predict future months. Not convinced it's sustainable
given the information.

~~~
maxklein
Last 6 months have been high enough to sustain this, but who knows that the
future will bring. If ever income drops down, then one would simply stop this,
and look for solutions that fit the income level.

------
ryanb
I enjoy reading Max's posts, but find it odd how secretive he is about what
his actual business is.

------
gojomo
What would folks think of a chain of high-quality coworking sites in low-cost
destinations -- so you'd be sure of having comfortable desks, big monitors,
reliable bandwidth, whiteboards, and a projector when you need them?

~~~
jdminhbg
I would use the hell out of such a thing, but I expect that I'm a pretty small
niche market.

~~~
wallflower
Possible prototype. Rick's "coworking retreat"

"The first location is on a remote island in Bocas del Toro, Panama, right on
the ocean, by a coral reef, on an island with no cars. We use solar power,
have running water, propane refrigerators, and, of course, reliable Wifi.
We're right on the border to Costa Rica, and the closest airport is 30 min
away by boat.

This is definitely a place for seriously adventurous souls - you can be
working online one minute, and snorkel or kayak the next, or go for a hike in
the jungle, or snorkel, waterski, ...

We have lots of space -- several common areas to hang out, and a place to stay
for everyone. We plan to have 6-10 people there at a time... We have a cook
who prepares breakfast and lunch; dinner is self-organized; there are a few
restaurants in the area, or we cook together.

As far as I know, this is still a very new idea, and I'm curious how it works
out... We're also looking for anchors/volunteers who would like to spend more
time there and help run and improve the place, and to help shape the
community. Any thoughts on the idea in general would also be appreciated."

<http://www.cocovivo.com/>

~~~
fortes
Cocovivo looks pretty neat. Could be a good working vacation for me.

However, there are no indications of cost that I can find -- anyone stayed
there before?

~~~
daveungerer
From the contact page:

 _If you don't have time to contribute, you're welcome to offer a donation
instead. (Our cost is roughly $20 per person per day, plus your own food
consumption)_

It really does sound like a cool idea.

------
vpdn
I wonder what kind of business generates 40k a month with three people
remotely scattered around the globe. Sounds like a pretty awesome model. Care
to share?

~~~
maxklein
iPhone mostly, and I'm not the only one, check out
<http://twitter.com/spreadsong>, they make even more!

~~~
exit
so most of your revenue comes from the "Art you should know" app, listed on
cubeofm.com ? or do you have products not listed there?

~~~
pragmatic
Yes, I'm also curious. One iphone app generates 40k of income a month @ $.99
per unit? Interesting. I'm surprised more people aren't discussing that,
rather than the "omfg you travel" and blar blar blar...

~~~
barmstrong
Totally agree...I'm pretty floored that this art app is generating $40k a
month. Would not have guessed that. Congrats man. That's newsworthy.

------
zenocon
I do something similar, although not as lavish. I'm an independent consultant,
and I typically work 4-5 weeks at home, and then co-locate for one week at the
client to do planning and design for the next iteration. I've found this to be
a perfect balance. I can relate to what he says about the isolation -- missing
the camaraderie and sharing in small victories or frustrations. On the other
hand, not having to drive into an office every day is bliss. It is a balancing
act...you have to find what fits for you and your team.

------
vpdn
Beside efficient communication and faster execution, the approach also helps
break the lethargic monotony a one man show has to face, be it as a freelancer
or an employee in a distributed team. One month 'off' is also a great way to
say thanks to everyone for their endless hours and bang-head-against-wall solo
session.

Before my time, IBM regularly held a WebSphere Services Technical Conference
(WSTC) in Las Vegas and annually flew in a big portion of the team for a week
to learn about the hottest features. I am sure my colleagues learned a lot,
but the stories I am told these days about those days also go beyond and
usually start with someone getting lost on The Strip at 3am.

It probably doesn't have to be that expensive though. I would assume that
renting a house wouldn't take away too much from the experience and benefits
but would be significantly cheaper (we had a house which could easily fit up
to eight people at the ocean, 60km away from Venice in Italy for 500EUR/week).
When the team is right, doing simple stuff such as cooking together can be
quite fun and bonding.

A related approach: Designer Stefan Sagmeister gives up some of his retirement
years and instead takes a one year 'creative break' every seven years. Here's
his TED talk:

[http://www.ted.com/talks/stefan_sagmeister_the_power_of_time...](http://www.ted.com/talks/stefan_sagmeister_the_power_of_time_off.html)

------
jrnkntl
So, are you hiring?

~~~
maxklein
Actually, you point out a flaw in this model. Hiring has to be very specific -
you need people who you can hang around with for a month and they don't drive
you crazy with their teeth grinding or something. So my hiring would have to
be very careful and would have to lean towards people who are similar in age
and interest to the rest of the team.

~~~
smiler
Similar age and interest? You can't discriminate based on age or interest -
that's illegal

~~~
maxklein
I would not put out an ad asking for people to hire, rather I'd work with
people on project basis, and if I found one that is a good fit, I'd ask him to
join. Would that be illegal also?

~~~
Psyonic
Seems unlikely. Also, given how small your company is, it'd be nearly
impossible for someone to prove you've discriminated based on any particular
factor, as opposed to just being selective. Not enough employees to
demonstrate a pattern. So I doubt this should even be a concern for you.

------
joubert
For a big project, I once recommended to my boss to put us all on a yacht off
Key West.

~~~
oz
How'd it work out?

~~~
joubert
he smiled

------
alexyim
What's his company called again? Why isn't it linked on his blog?

~~~
barmstrong
I was wondering this too. I assumed it was the homepage:
<http://www.cubeofm.com>

But it doesn't have much on it and shows 1 or 2 iPhone apps which I'd be a
little surprised if they were making $40k a month. What is the product or
company?

------
kixxauth
OK, so how about some ideas for a bootstrapped company that is no where close
to making $40k a month (yet)? In fact, we work remotely for the freedom it
offers, but also because we can't afford a space.

~~~
mseebach
It comes down to whether you can afford the flights to bring the team
together.

If you can, get a regular, non-luxury cabin/summerhouse in the countryside for
a week. Beer in the fridge, hamburgers on the grill and a bonfire at night
works every bit as well as Bangkok nightlife for bonding.

Good internet might be an issue, but if you bring a 3G modem and a router, and
spend some time setting up a server, so you can bring a local repository,
build-server, test-server etc., you should be able to get by.

I've thought about equipping a summerhouse for this model, as a business (good
chairs, good desks, good internet aren't usually found in summer houses),
mostly aimed at teams that need to get out of the office to bond, kick-start a
project etc.

------
linhat
just plain INTERESTING what a simple google search can tell you:
www.cubeofm.com/todo/TodoListMaxKlein.pdf

PS: rather funny codename though

------
shin_lao
Just a quick comment: never tell the world how much you make, unless required
by the law.

~~~
barmstrong
Why is that? I've seen similar advice elsewhere (for example, 37Signals
doesn't disclose revenue etc) but I've never been sure of the reason.

Andrew Warner on the other hand talks about how he was initially uncomfortable
with it but decided to do it based on the advice of the Neil Patel and it
really helped him establish credibility and build traffic:
<http://mixergy.com/about/>

~~~
maxklein
I'll say one thing - nobody gave a shit about me till the very first time I
posted revenue figures a few months ago. Then I went from 40 twitter followers
to 300 in a couple of days or so.

------
Alex63
Aren't there tax implications for "working" in another country?

~~~
terryjsmith
Most countries would define "working" as earning money from an employer within
that country itself, hence depriving citizens of that country of a prospective
job.

~~~
maigret
That's wrong. I know from big corps that employees always have to ask for work
permission when going to the US (or other countries) for things like
development, even for one week. For most countries in the world you actually
need a work permission to do that. Single exception is when you do customers
meetings all the time and have a secretary typing for you.

~~~
mallipeddi
Except no one can verify what you do exactly. You always tell the immigration
officer at the airport (if he/she asks you) that you're visiting for
"meetings". But who does meetings 9-5 every day for 2-3 weeks?

Basically you're OK as long as you don't get paid for your work there. My
friend works in the oil/gas industry and he keeps flying to different
countries frequently and works there for almost 3-4 weeks. But he doesn't get
paid in that country (he gets some per-diem allowance but that's all).

