
The Hatpin Peril (2014) - danbolt
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/hatpin-peril-terrorized-men-who-couldnt-handle-20th-century-woman-180951219/
======
deeblering4
Reminds me of a comedian who said “if I have $1000 dollars in my pocket while
walking home at night, I have something that another man wants to take from me
and it makes me feel scared. This is how it must feel to be a woman all the
time, always having something that another man wants to take from you.”

I’m paraphrasing, but I thought this was an interesting perspective into a
kind of vulnerability that a lot of men probably hadn’t thought about.

~~~
ramoneguru
Dave Chapelle - Bird Revelation.

I used to do shows for drug dealers that wanted to clean their money up. One
time I did a real good set, and these motherf--kers called me into the back
room. They gave me $25,000 in cash […] I jumped on the subway and started
heading towards Brooklyn at one o’clock in the morning. Never been that
terrified in my life. I’d never in my life had something that somebody else
would want. I thought to myself, “Jesus Christ, if motherf--kers knew much
money I had in this backpack, they’d kill me for it.” Then I thought: “Holy
s00t, what if I had a pu--y on me all the time? That’s what women are dealing
with.” […] If those same drug dealers gave me a pu--y and said, “Put it in
your backpack and take it to Brooklyn,” I’d be like, “Ni--a, I can’t accept
this.”

~~~
CarbyAu
While a good metaphor it still misses out easy identification. Women are often
easily identifiable as such. Take that $25000 and strap it to the front of
your chest...

~~~
bryanrasmussen
then you're in conversation with someone and have to continually remind them
"hey buddy, my eyes are up here"

------
totetsu
Hat pins have some advantages, decent stats, light weight (don't need a
special scabbard and you'll have one on you anyway to keep your hat on when
flying) but they are of misc class, and your far better spending you EXP on
another combat branch.
[https://dwwiki.mooo.com/wiki/Hatpin](https://dwwiki.mooo.com/wiki/Hatpin)

------
not2b
I'm sure than in almost all of these cases, the woman had already led the man
know that she objected to his attacks (and groping a woman without permission
is an attack), either verbally, nonverbally, or both, and the idiot persisted.
I'm all for the "hatpin girls".

~~~
Igelau
Are you all for this?

[https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-
bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC19030822.2.48&e=-...](https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-
bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC19030822.2.48&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------1)

------
itshardbeing
In response to some comments:

If someone breaks down your door and enters your house, I (and I think most
others) see nothing wrong with you defending yourself.

Why is it different here? It doesn't matter if their intention is to rob you
or not.

~~~
scarmig
If an aggressive homeless person approaches me on the street and I'm not sure
of his state of mind and intentions, should I be allowed to stab him?

~~~
nine_k
If you had a serious reason to see his actions as an attack that puts your
life or health at risk, serious enough for the jury to believe you — well,
yes. It's self-defense, and it does not matter whether the attacker is
homeless.

~~~
scarmig
Nah. Relying on the stabber's self attestation "oh I felt really threatened"
is always stupid. That's how you get situations like Trayvon Martin.

You never know whether someone will attack you. Giving people the right to
stab any person who makes them feel threatened is de facto giving people the
right to stab people at will.

~~~
nine_k
Indeed. But if somebody were actively attacking you, having not yet inflicted
any harm, I suppose any jury would see your self-defense as self-defense. You
don't need to wait to be stabbed to fight back.

OTOH if you were to say "he just looked at me just so, and I felt really
threatened, so I fought back", it's likely not going to fly.

------
dr_dshiv
> It was true, as social worker Jane Addams lamented, that “never before in
> civilization have such numbers of young girls been suddenly released from
> the protection of the home and permitted to walk unattended upon city
> streets and to work under alien roofs.”

Wow.

~~~
rimjongun
Maybe she was right

------
mc32
Obviously that was a sign of the times, so people found a way (people moving
amongst semi anonymous crowds and policing not having caught up).

I think we are missing something in that today this kind of action would lead
to a case in favor of the "people" (ie the complainant). But there are so many
things that can be better handled by people defending themselves without
having to fear a case against them. Like a home invader suing homeowners for
something)

Obviously in a civilized society we expect people to behave so we have these
tools of justice available to us, but in some cases, like these, I think this
kind of action would serve to better deter uncivil behavior.

------
epicureanideal
> "When he lifted his arm and draped it low across her back, Leoti had enough.
> In a move that would thrill victim of modern-day subway harassment, she
> reached for her hatpin—nearly a foot long—and plunged it into the meat of
> the man’s arm. He let out a terrible scream and left the coach at the next
> stop."

Although what the man did is inappropriate, stabbing him seems excessive. She
could've first asked him to stop.

> "A Chicago showgirl, bothered by a masher’s “insulting questions,” beat him
> in the face with her umbrella until he staggered away."

Again, seems excessive. Why not just tell him off and walk away?

> "Such stories were notable not only for their frequency but also for their
> laudatory tone; for the first time, women who fought back against harassers
> were regarded as heroes rather than comic characters, as subjects rather
> than objects. Society was transitioning, slowly but surely, from expecting
> and advocating female dependence on men to recognizing their desire and
> ability to defend themselves."

I would say this is more than self defense. The examples given are
overreactions that would be prosecuted as crimes under most circumstances.

~~~
jschwartzi
You're assuming that women and men are on equal footing, physically. When you
politely ask someone to stop invading your space, it's backed by your ability
to push them out of it.

If you're 6'2" and the other guy is 6'2" you're on pretty even footing. But if
you're 5'1" and the guy is 6'2" you're not on even footing and shouldn't be
expected to act like you are.

This is to say nothing of how physically intimidating it is for someone to
just enter your personal space like that. And when you're in an enclosed space
like a carriage, you have no escape route. So in my mind stabbing the guy in
the arm was pretty mellow. There's no telling where things would have gone
from there.

If you're at all concerned about getting stabbed in the arm, maybe get to know
the other person before you invade their space.

~~~
epicureanideal
I think stabbing someone has a very high chance of making the situation far
more dangerous than just asking the person to stop.

Also, it has been true for centuries that a woman screaming "help!" would draw
the attention of all the men in the area (for example the carriage driver in
this case) who would be eager to beat the other man to a pulp if he didn't
stop harassing her.

Women and children first into the lifeboats, remember? Most men do care about
women as a class and even elevate their care for them above their concern for
themselves.

Also, although people might give a 5'1" man some leeway regarding using a
stick against a 6'2" man if the 6'2" man attacked him first, I don't think
anyone would find it acceptable for the 5'1" man to INITIATE the violence
using a weapon merely because of the POSSIBILITY that the larger man might
attack him.

If you're in a bar and a large man says something insulting to you, do you
just skip to attacking him because, if you say something insulting back he
might attack you? If you do, I'm pretty sure you're the one who will be
charged with a crime.

You know, sometimes people who ask for directions then demand your wallet.
Should I just attack everyone who approaches me for directions, because they
might be a thief?

~~~
whatshisface
> _Also, it has been true for centuries that a woman screaming "help!" would
> draw the attention of all the men in the area (for example the carriage
> driver in this case) who would be eager to beat the other man to a pulp if
> he didn't stop harassing her._

Is that really true?

~~~
dx87
No, it's not. I just finished reading a book where the author talks about
growing up in the late 70s, early 80s, and one night his father started
beating his mom with the buckle end of his belt. She managed to hit the panic
alarm at their house, and when the police showed up, they police didn't even
talk to her, even though she was standing there with blood running down her
face. The father just told them that she got out of line, and he had to teach
her who's in charge, and the police nodded and chuckled, then left.

~~~
epicureanideal
What book?

Also, while it is probably true that there were sometimes inappropriate police
responses to domestic violence in the past, that is not the general case of a
woman screaming for help in a public place from a strange man.

Even so, the story you're talking about sounds very unusual.

Also note that the honest research since the 1970s shows that domestic
violence is two-way, and that women initiate the majority of violence.

Reference: Thirty Years Denying the Evidence on Gender Symmetry in Partner
Violence, Murray Strauss, University of New Hampshire. Summarizes results from
200 studies.

Around the same time, 1970s, Erin Pizzey, creator of the first womens'
shelters in the UK, observed (as she wrote in her book) that many of the women
that came to her for shelter were as violent or more violent than the men they
were escaping from.

------
fxtentacle
This appears to be a topic that the HN community is unwilling to discuss
neutrally.

~~~
danbolt
What do you feel the ideal neutrality for this topic looks like on HN?

~~~
fxtentacle
For example, engaging epicureanideal's post with arguments showing his opinion
to be wrong, instead of just hiding it with hundreds of downvotes. That post
and its replies was like 90% of the discussion when I first checked, and now
it's one light gray row at the bottom. As is, there isn't much of a discussing
left in here.

~~~
kubanczyk
HN guidelines say:

Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and
it makes boring reading.

Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That
destroys the curiosity this site exists for.

\---

The "hundreds of downvotes" and how the UI reflects the downvotes are two
facts of life. Indeed your initiative to change these facts is _not_
interesting to me.

~~~
fxtentacle
I was trying to comment about the lack of different opinions in the
discussion. Because it's hardly a discussion if everyone agrees and/or if the
people who don't agree are invisible.

