
Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option when installing Windows - rahuldottech
https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/daim1y/ms_has_removed_the_use_offline_account_option/
======
mastazi
This is incredibly bad.

In general I have a positive opinion about what MS is doing lately, but
Windows is a glaring exception, it’s getting worse and worse at an alarming
rate.

In the last two months we had two consecutive updates that broke basic
functionality for users who disabled web results in Windows Search (which is a
very common setting among those who care about privacy)
[https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-1903-microsoft-
deta...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-1903-microsoft-details-
search-fix-as-new-update-bug-hits/)

Now, MS is trying to force upon customers this cloud login garbage, which is
obviously not acceptable if you are privacy conscious.

I build my own PCs and have spent hundreds of dollars in Windows 10 retail
licenses, I pay for the service so I don’t want to be the product.

I’ve always assumed that I’m locked into using Windows but after all this crap
I’m starting to look into alternatives even though they’v got shortcomings on
their own.

(Edit: replaced Amp link with real link, sorry I didn’t realise it was Amp)

~~~
Kuinox
They didn't removed it. The title is misleading, The button is still there,
but they renamed the button. It's under "Domain Join Instead"
[https://i.imgur.com/tA9fo1R.png](https://i.imgur.com/tA9fo1R.png) And there
you can create an offline account:
[https://i.imgur.com/eBLi5cv.png](https://i.imgur.com/eBLi5cv.png)

~~~
mastazi
I didn’t feel the need to specify that in my comment because the linked Reddit
thread already explains it, it’s the top upvoted comment, you can see it just
below the initial post. When I said “this is incredibly bad” I was referring
to the dark pattern, I wasn’t trying to suggest that the option had been
completely removed.

~~~
Kuinox
To what i see, the top upvoted comment is at the third position behind a lot
of subcomments, because of the "hot" ranking of reddit. By reading the
discussions here, i don't think that a lot of people realised that the option
is still there.

~~~
chrisgarand
They're forcing people to online accounts by putting the offline option in the
basement, it's the standard 'nudge' in software. Eventually they'll eliminate
it completely.

Some would consider this one a dark pattern, I would agree in this case.

~~~
pro8ndi
Except maybe in a “home edition” that can’t eliminate it completely.
Businesses will flip their shit if employees needed an MS account.

It would mean the death of Windows.

~~~
cameronbrown
> Businesses will flip their shit if employees needed an MS account.

Not necessarily. Remember that Windows is an Azure product now. They want
employees in the cloud paying for Office 365 anyway.

------
GlenTheMachine
...and from what I can tell, their online account security is craptastic.

Here’s a true story that happened to my family. My son is the only person in
the house who uses Windows. For his game machine. He set up a Microsoft online
account. It got hacked - someone set up a fake family and managed to get my
son’s account listed under it as a child. As a consequence, he couldn’t
install any new software. I’m not sure what the point of this particular hack
is, but that was the result.

So we called Microsoft customer service. It turns out that there is no way to
get an account removed from a family once it’s listed there. The Windows rep
we talked to had a recourse, though. He proposed that we, the three of us,
attempt to reverse-hack the fake “dad”’s account over the phone by trying to
guess his password. I had to explain to the gentleman that, even though we
were within our moral rights to do this, a) it was almost certainly illegal,
and b) doomed to failure.

He didn’t understand the issue. Eventually we had to agree to disagree, and
hang up on him. We never got my son’s account back. We wiped his computer and
installed Windows via “use offline account”. I’m glad this was last year and
not today, I guess?

~~~
tzs
> ...and from what I can tell, their online account security is craptastic.

I'm not convinced that their _offline_ security is good, either.

I sometimes will pick up my Surface Pro 4 and disconnect it from the charger.
Disconnecting from the charger usually (but not always...not sure what
determines it) wakes it. It then turns on their equivalent of Apple's Face ID,
and tries to log in.

Sometimes I don't actually want that yet, as I just picked it up to take it
somewhere else. So I'll hit the power button to put it back to sleep. The
screen blanks...and then sometimes it quickly comes back, logged in.

The thing is I've sometimes had it do this when I've been careful to have my
face out of view, holding it so I can only barely see the screen around the
edge to see if disconnecting power will wake it up and I'll need to hit power
to put it back to sleep.

This doesn't happen all the time, but it has happened several times, leading
me to wonder if there is some sort of glitch if you interrupt a face-based
login attempt at just the right time via the power button causing it to think
it logged in.

Anyone else seen this?

~~~
orev
Face logon takes some seconds to initialize, and if you interrupt it it gets
confused. But the solution to your issue is to have the type cover closed when
you unplug it.

~~~
Normal_gaussian
That is hardly a solution to a security issue. I can't ensure the burglar
keeps the cover closed

~~~
richardwhiuk
The burglar won't have your face?

~~~
rovr138
I’m a sensitive location.

------
mentos
“They have not removed it, it just is not visible by default if you are
connected to the internet. Either run the setup without being connected to the
internet, or type in a fake phone number a few times and it will give you the
prompt to create a local account.”

~~~
danShumway
That's a pretty clear dark pattern, no?

At the very least, it signals that Microsoft really doesn't want users
creating offline accounts. Which is troubling, because their TOS for online
accounts is quite onerous, and includes a couple of problematic restrictions,
including a mandatory arbitration agreement.

If I was a Windows user who relied on local accounts this would be very
worrying to me.

~~~
weka
It's most definitely a dark pattern.

Just how reddit now prompts you to enter an email when you register but it's
not marked as required and it doesn't say optional either.

~~~
FreakyT
To be fair, it’s really unusual that they even let you get an account without
an email — I believe they’re still one of the only major sites left that allow
this at all.

~~~
abhiminator
Not unusual when you consider this fact: when reddit was originally founded
back in '05, the ability to create an anonymous account with a pseudonym in
_seconds_ was the goal. The redesign is a shame, but I'm glad they chose to
stick with their old UI via a decicated URL (old.reddit.com).

~~~
raverbashing
Well, yeah, another thing ruined by spammers

(And the redesign is truly a shame)

------
tenebrisalietum
Microsoft is clearly taking moves that enable "PC as a service".

I imagine the end game is something like you pay Microsoft so much a month on
a subscription, receive hardware that is preconfigured with and tied to your
Microsoft account details or your company's Azure AD configuration and locked
down with InTune, unhackable with properly implemented Class 3+ UEFI and
Secure Boot, etc. You then purchase additional software subscriptions, such as
your Photoshop, etc., through the Microsoft store, with Microsoft taking a cut
like Apple.

If your computer breaks, pay the $50 or $100 insurance and receive a new one
from Microsoft, if it's not folded into your monthly "Microsoft Technology
Subscription."

So when Microsoft completes its takeover of the PC, what's the platform and
OEM landscape going to look like? This endgame clearly puts companies like
Dell, HP, Asus, etc. and the companies that provide parts like Intel, AMD in a
subordinate position to Microsoft. They probably won't like that.

Will they give up? Will they try to start to make hardware for Apple? Will
these companies embrace Linux and provide a third way?

~~~
chank
Deal is, big corps want it. Everything as a service. Easy to write off. Easy
to ramp up and down as needed.

~~~
blahedo
Do they though? My friends that work IT in corporate settings seem to tear
their hair out every time MS (or _anyone_ ) tries to auto-push an update that
they haven't had a chance to rigorously test for compatibility and security
with their existing stuff. Some of them have fiduciary responsibility to _not_
add/change/upgrade software without carefully testing it first. That doesn't
seem compatible with the trajectory Windows is now on (and that Apple has been
on for some time).

~~~
paulryanrogers
> Some of them have fiduciary responsibility to not add/change/upgrade
> software without carefully testing it first.

While that makes a lot of sense will it remain a requirement if/when it's
simply not a choice with any major vendor?

Can smaller vendors still provide that choice and meet all the necessary
certificates that such industries often also require?

(Serious question, not trolling.)

~~~
davidvgoliath
There is WSUS. Group Policy is a very powerful tool. Get control of your
updates!

~~~
AnonymousPlanet
This is one of the things that disgust me about dealing with Windows.

Oh, you want to properly administrate your Windows? You can't unless you buy
another Windows! But a more expensive one!

You are unable to wade through our byzantine licensing maze? Buy another
Windows to manage that!

Expensive Microsoft solutions for problems _created_ by Microsoft. And then
there's this entire army of sods that think this is the best thing since
sliced bread, telling you "Isn't it fantastic that Microsoft provides this
wonderful solution?"

------
klingonopera
As someone who uses Windows for industrial PCs, I'm pretty appalled.

We've been hanging on to Windows 7, including side-loading drivers into the
installation image for modern hardware, because this kind of stuff that
Windows 10 does is in these cases simply unacceptable (random tip: Go for AMD,
their Windows 7 support is _way_ better than Intel, _do not_ use Intel chipset
series 300).

I can't have PCs bogged down downloading updates or randomly restarting when
they're controlling endurance test rigs designed to run 24/7.

Driver issues with Linux, no real vendor support and (believe it or not)
stability was the reason Windows prevailed in these applications. And MS threw
that all out the window.

Oh well, I'd get paid to rewrite the control software in Linux, I'm not really
complaining, I just hope there's enough driver support (looking at you,
National Instruments...).

~~~
wvenable
Why are you using a consumer level OS/setup for this?

PC's setup in a corporate environment are tightly controlled, even with
Windows 10.

~~~
huntie
Windows is pretty common for control systems in factories. One factory I
worked in used a web application, the one I'm in now uses VB applications. One
of the control systems I use is running Windows2K. These computers have
Internet access too.

------
npmaile
I understand correcting the title to be more accurate to the situation, but I
think the discussion should be focused on how Microsoft is taking power away
from users, and has business incentive to do so. I don't like that the greater
tech community rallies behind Microsoft for doing some basic contributions to
open source and then hand waves away moves like this.

Edit: the comment section has shifted and I'm less disappointed.

~~~
ekianjo
Open source contributions for Microsoft are just like charities for big
corporations with despicable practices. They can use it to say "hey we are not
that bad, after all we support FOSS!"

~~~
userbinator
MS has been open-sourcing a lot of stuff in the past few years, which I see
more as meaning that their IP has little intrinsic value anymore. MS used to
sell software, so code was sacred and not meant for others to see; now it's
more about services, so code doesn't really matter much anymore, and if it's
code that can help people use their services, open-sourcing makes sense.

You can see this with Google, Facebook, and all the others which release huge
amounts of FOSS; they are not in the business of selling software either.

~~~
brain5ide
Yes! This shift of business was somehow perceived by the public as the win of
open source, but has actually amazingly been an actual loss on the control
that you have with the money that you spend.

~~~
xtracto
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. People have short memories of Microsoft practices
and for some reason have "drunk the kool-aid". Ballmer was better because his
tactics were not "sleazy", they were straight and clear.

This new exec team is sleazy and trying to give a "good face" when the reality
is that they are as bad as they have always been. But people get flashed with
the new & shiny open source crumbs that are given.

~~~
Spearchucker
How are Microsoft bad? The topic is about a change Microsoft made to benefit
their online services. This isn't a great development by any stretch, for
sure. And yet when compared with companies that collect and traffic in
personal data Microsoft is in my opinion relatively(!) benign.

~~~
wolco
Comparing them to Google/facebook and saying they are benign misses the point.
They are not using your data for there non-existing web ad-network but they
are sending you ads directly through your operating system. You are safe on
that front but losing control quickly.

They are funneling you into their cloud services. They are changing purchase
models into subscription models. They own your operating system and can do
what they want with it including kicking you off. And they also partner with
law enforcement freely. Where thoses boundaries start/stop who knows but there
does seem to be more underaged porn arrests with a single image found. Didn't
microsoft develop some image detection that the police use? Perhaps scans are
happening locally.

Facebook will polute your feed with personal ads. Google will polute the web
with personal ads But microsoft will destroy your life.

Not sure who's better but why do we trust large brands?

------
cwojno
I've switched to Linux + Mint in part because I don't want to be using Windows
any more. Many of my games work with Steam on Linux now, actually. With
Google's docs/drive, everything works cross platform. I really have no
productivity loss by not using Windows any more.

~~~
xtracto
> With Google's docs/drive, everything works cross platform

What do you use instead of Google Backup and Sync client? I haven't found
something that works like that. The "best" thing I've found is the FUSE Ocaml
filesystem ([https://github.com/astrada/google-drive-
ocamlfuse](https://github.com/astrada/google-drive-ocamlfuse)) but still it is
a "mounted" over network filesystem and not a sync-on-change solution. I tried
InSync but could not make it work and it is not free, and also the Gnome
"mount Google Drive" option, but it is also a "mounted" over network solution.

Other than that and some of the rough edges (random bluetooth issues, random
issues after updating, completely broken Android ADB support), I like Linux
Mint a lot. I do all my work and play (CS:GO, NFS, Cities Skylines, Hitman) on
it, even for games that are not supported by default.

~~~
phasnox
What about Dropbox? Also Nextcloud

~~~
pletnes
Dropbox runs on linux but they are missing a lot of features and it only works
on unencrypted ext4 fs. They are slowly dropping support I would say.

~~~
btgeekboy
Dropbox recently updated the Linux FS limitations. See
[https://help.dropbox.com/installs-
integrations/desktop/syste...](https://help.dropbox.com/installs-
integrations/desktop/system-requirements#linux)

------
xeeeeeeeeeeenu
I don't understand why so many people on HN praise Satya Nadella. I guess good
PR is worth much more than actions.

Before Nadella, Windows wasn't nearly as user-hostile as it is now. There was
no mandatory telemetry, there were no forced updates, end users weren't
treated as betatesters and QA wasn't non-existent. And now they are taking
away the ability to use Windows without Microsoft Account.

Of course there are also many other problems with Windows 10, like the UWP
fiasco, but they're minor in comparison to what Microsoft is doing with user's
freedom and privacy.

I always preferred Windows to Unixes, but at this point I think it's time to
give up and switch to some Linux distribution. It's clear that the situation
will only get worse.

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
Most people on HN, I would postulate, don't use Windows. We might use VS Code,
we might use Azure, but we aren't using Microsoft's operating system.

~~~
HenryKissinger
Windows remains the most convenient OS for video games, and given HN's
userbase (mostly young men), I think a lot of people here use Windows.

~~~
greggman2
Windows is also the arguably the domain of GPU related dev. I see lots of
Razer laptops. They are small and same weight as a MBP but you can get a 2080
RTX (previously 1060 GTX). Even the newest MBA's GPU is not 1/2 as fast as the
3 year old Razer (and its peers)

~~~
fortran77
That's right. We use Surface Book with NVIDIA for our laptops and Thinkmate /
Supermicro PCs. All with NVIDIA. Our Hollywood clients need NVIDIA for video
rendering and we write software in CUDA/C++.

Windows 10 really does work great. Seriously!

------
lone_haxx0r
Meanwhile, the Linux world is wasting its biggest opportunity to take over the
desktop space.

IMO, Unintuitive interfaces (e.g. Gnome shell), forced package management (as
opposed to decentralized distribution of apps) and lack of care for graphic
design are the biggest things keeping the masses away from the Linux desktop,
because in other areas (speed, robustness, privacy, control) it just blows
Windows out of the water.

All of these are highly controversial opinions, many Linux advocates think
they are not problems, but I think they really are.

~~~
wayneftw
As a long time Windows user, I switched from Windows to XFCE (Manjaro) and it
was pretty seamless. Most of the keyboard shortcuts are the same (or, easily
configurable to be the same). I had to hunt down one xdotools script and bind
a shortcut for moving windows from one display to another for it to work the
same.

There are many things that XFCE does even better or just as good. Window
snapping works great. The start menu is back-to-basics simple and fast.
Searching in it doesn't search the internet or my whole hard drive by default
and it just works and finds things faster. The taskbar is also better IMO
because it has way more useful options (such as middle-clicking) and less
anti-features. On Windows, I have to use some unsupported 3rd-party thing
called 7+ taskbar tweaker to add the same features and remove some anti-
features. I am a minimalist and I loved the classic taskbar. I hated some new
Windows behaviors like "preview window-content on hover over taskbar item",
jump lists and grouped taskbar items - some of which you just couldn't turn
off in Windows without that 3rd-party tool. So, after years of fighting
against that I figured if I have to hack my DE, I might as well run the one
that's free and gives _me_ all the power. ( _I also have to modify macOS to
make it even bearable to use...way more than Windows even, with third party
hacks. And Apple certainly gives you less control than Microsoft, so I 'm
definitely not using that!_)

Some things I'm missing on any Linux DE though: GPU acceleration in Chrome.
Games.

However, I'm now even doing Microsoft-specific work with dotnet core, VS Code,
SQL Server and Azure Data Studio on my Manjaro workstation. For work, I don't
really need Windows anymore unless someone gives me some Windows-specific
thing to work on, for which I have one machine on standby to do.

Overall, I like how much control I have in Linux. However, Windows _is still
more stable_ than any Linux desktop in my experience. For instance, I've lost
desktop settings/icons a crash after an update. Wifi stopped working after an
update once. But things are/were easy to remedy so I'm staying.

~~~
orloffm
Wanted to thank for the post, it finally triggered me to ditch Windows on my
laptop. But it seems that Xubuntu would be a better choice for dotnet core
development: there is an official 3.0 SDK for Ubuntu while Arch is not
officially supported, and no one has built the 3.0 SDK for it yet.

I also read some description of the state on Reddit
([https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/cx64r5/the_state...](https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/cx64r5/the_state_of_net_core_on_arch/)),
and it seems that there are too many hoops to jump on Manjaro.

~~~
wayneftw
You know what? Reading _your_ post has now made me want to convert another
machine, that I have sitting right here, to use Xubuntu because Ubuntu does
seem to have much more official support for things, plus I'd really like to
compare it to Manjaro and finally many of our servers are running Ubuntu so it
will be nice to get a deeper familiarity with it.

I was just this minute looking at .NET Core 3.0 as well because I had such a
good experience with 2.2 on a recent job. Your comment actually alerted me to
the fact that I can't get it yet :)

I was off of .NET for years doing mainly Node.js/Angular/React and I'm kind of
excited to be getting back into .NET - I'm so glad my 15 years of .NET
experience won't go to waste because ASP.NET has been looking very good in web
server benchmarks. Plus, C# and .NET are much nicer to work with than JS/TS
and Node IMO. Everything is just cleaner.

Anyway - good luck and I hope you have a lot of fun on your Linux desktop
adventure. One of my favorite things about the switch over the past year has
been the fun of being a sort of hobbyist again, exploring and figuring things
out. At this point, I have setup 4 different desktops and I even got advanced
touch gestures working on my cheap Acer E5-575g laptop. Can't wait to setup
Xubuntu next! So, thanks to you as well!

------
michaelmrose
This seems like it is preparatory to removing it entirely.

It wouldn't be shocking if in 10 years you need a Microsoft account to use
windows on a computer you don't have root access to that isn't allowed to run
a non ms os or to distribute software that ms gets a 30% cut.

If it isn't so it will be because they don't think they can get away with it.

~~~
shakna
> to use windows on a computer you don't have root access to that isn't
> allowed to run a non ms os or to distribute software that ms gets a 30% cut.

That's basically how the SurfaceRT worked, isn't it? So they've already
attempted this once.

~~~
cl0ckt0wer
That's what Windows S mode is [https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/windows/s-mode](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/s-mode)

~~~
Filligree
Well, that's worrisome.

~~~
tobias3
Well, they have to compete with ChromeOS, I guess... Currently they allow you
to exit S mode to a normal Home edition.

~~~
vunie
Currently.

------
dewitt
This is problematic even for people who don't mind linking to an online
Microsoft account (I'm one of them). There is a long-standing Windows bug
where local user directory names are created using a truncated version of the
online account's name. This is rarely what you want. The work-around has long
been to create an offline account first to name your own local directory, then
convert it to an online account.

This will break that work-around, and this is universally bad.

~~~
Havoc
I've just resigned myself to the fact that the last letter of name is cut off.
Seems super silly since it's capable of showing the full name everywhere else.

Maybe some MS dev hasn't cottoned on to the string count starts at [0] lol

------
freeflight
Used to be that you shouldn't install Windows online to prevent getting
exploited by malware before you had a chance to patch.

Now it looks like one has to install offline to prevent getting adware and all
kinds of other things, what amazing progress.

As somebody still stuck on Win7 I'm dreading the change, sadly Linux is not
really an option because I like my PC gaming.

Any good resources on what to look out for when installing Win10, what to turn
off and when to stay offline when setting what things up? I keep
seeing/picking up small tips all over the place, but I have yet to find
something comprehensive.

~~~
dave7
> sadly Linux is not really an option because I like my PC gaming.

This is changing and very quickly with Valve Proton. I would advise you try
your gaming collection in Steam on Linux. It is getting to the point where one
can purchase a game and it will likely just work, with the exception of a few
DRM nasties.

~~~
NotOscarWilde
It really depends on your video game tastes, I think. There are now
essentially three types of games which I enjoy playing:

1) Indie games;

2) Big studio releases (some of them);

3) Competitive online 3D shooters.

My experience is that 1) usually work well on Linux and the small studios
these days usually make sure it works on Mac and Linux, which is great.

I do not know of any games in the 2) category that really do work on Linux
(Activision, Ubisoft and EA simply don't care) and this actually impacts me in
3) -- unless I want to play a 7 year old CS:GO, I am out of luck on Linux.

(Just to be clear, I am saying this as a person that has Linux at work & on my
laptop and who would really love to get rid of my Win 10 on my gaming desktop
PC. For gaming lovers with different tastes, I think the situation actually is
not that bad if you are willing to have a console at home -- you can cover 1)
and 2) this way, just not 3).)

~~~
ah-
Most of 1) and 2) works, check
[https://www.protondb.com/](https://www.protondb.com/)

If you're into those things 3) is an issue due to various anticheat systems
that don't yet run great on wine.

------
jchw
I have long banned Windows 10 from my computers; I only use it in VMs now. If
you desperately need Windows functionality for something but would rather use
Linux, you may be in luck; there's quite a few options for GPU passthrough
these days. If you're on a laptop you can even share your Intel GPU through
GVT-g.

For me, I am lucky. Wine and Steam Proton run basically anything I'd care to
run anymore. I use only Linux for work, as well.

I hope it's really worth it for them, because I've probably passed the last
time I will ever consider running Windows until I'm in the ground, at this
point. It's annoying, vexacious, constantly regressive, and almost literally
never improves on this. From forcing you to have Candy Crush to switching your
browser to Edge every update, Windows 10 is a piece of shit.

~~~
fendy3002
What's worse is win 10 is slower than win7 on hdd, due to superindexing and
cortana, making me stick with win7 or ubuntu. Hope we'll get alternatives in
the future.

They can just enable these functions on free version, and make enterprise
version configurable.

I guess if they still keep this practice, the office will start to change to
mac instead.

------
tapirl
As a happy Win8 user, that's exactly the reason why I switched from Win10 to
Linux. Many offline functions need online to perform. It is sad.

~~~
terenceng2010
I will stick with my windows 8.1 in my i5 third gen machine as late as
possible, until either the support ends or the computer needs to be retired.

~~~
clhodapp
That seems like a strange place to take a stand, since the specific brand of
user hostility that pervades Windows 10 seems to have seen its origin in
Windows 8

~~~
terenceng2010
Windows 8’s windows update is always quick and doesn’t interrupt your work for
a long period. The only usability issue on it is the start screen, which can
be fixed by installing the classic shell.

------
1_player
The online account is crap. I converted my offline account recently to the
online one, just to see what's the difference.

The difference is that I cannot even set a password, it asks me to set up a
PIN number to log in. Of course you can set it to accept letters in your PIN,
so it can function as a regular password.

But what the hell is the point?

(In fact, I didn't set any PIN the first time and at the next reboot I had to
log in with my Microsoft account password, which is decidedly more complicated
that the not-very-secure one I use to log in my PC. Thank god I have a
password manager on my phone.)

~~~
inetknght
I can't even get into my Microsoft account. When I go to reset it, Microsoft
claims that there is insufficient information to reset and unlock the account.
Meanwhile I can't log in to the account (because it's locked) and still
receive notifications about the account (click here to unlock it)

------
aspectmin
Every time a company does something like this, I remember that I spend more
and more time On the Linux side of my Dual Boot, and almost none in Windows
(save for some time plying Eve).

Having worked in large enterprises like this, I can also picture some small
team, or loud individual with a super ego, pushing for this kind of stuff as
if it is a good idea.

For every... say 20 PM/Product Manager/Lead/Devs that actually listen to
customers and want to create great software, there’s always Some Dunning
Krueger clueless individual who pushes for stuff like this. Often they’re the
loudest in the room, while everyone else is suffering from imposter syndrome
and afraid to speak up.

[soapbox off].

Sorry. My rant for the month.

------
nickjj
Seems like it's still there, just harder to access now.

The "best" sorted comment says:

> They have not removed it, it just is not visible by default if you are
> connected to the internet. Either run the setup without being connected to
> the internet, or type in a fake phone number a few times and it will give
> you the prompt to create a local account.

~~~
Zhyl
At this point they've crossed over from 'dark pattern' to 'black magic
fuckery'.

~~~
mkl
There's no indication of magical behaviour, it's just unfriendly.

~~~
danShumway
By magic, GP means that it's undiscoverable.

It's a crazy thing to say, "start the installer without a network connection
and you'll suddenly get a new option in the installer." Or, "when the
installer asks you for your email, keep spamming invalid responses until it
gets frustrated and unlocks the ability to skip the prompt."

That doesn't sound like a sensible UX flow, or even a UX flow with consumer-
unfriendly prompts and directions. It sounds like a video game cheat code or
easter egg.

~~~
mkl
Ah. I interpreted it as meaning removing the option was magical. This seems
like just an increase in the dark patterns that were already present around
local accounts, not a qualitative difference. Microsoft has been pushing back
against local accounts _hard_ in the setup process - you already had to
carefully jump through hoops to make one.

Trying again without network access is actually one of the first things I'd
try, but yes, it's undiscoverable for most people.

------
cheschire
This isn't news. We're linking to someone complaining on reddit. Maybe an
actual link would be more useful. And even this is from July.

[https://www.pcworld.com/article/3409788/how-microsoft-
made-i...](https://www.pcworld.com/article/3409788/how-microsoft-made-it-
harder-to-create-windows-10-local-accounts.html)

~~~
noisem4ker
It is worrying that this is one of the only two informed comments on the
matter, and it's being buried down the thread.

On the other hand, I don't mind Microsoft getting some more crap thrown at, at
all. Higher chance that their much eager marketing/PR team will take notice.

------
jammygit
I help a friends dad with his computer sometimes. A few times per year, he
brings it to me and says it’s being slow. Every time, it’s windows update
bogging his machine down for weeks, since it can’t seem to update on its own
without crashing and causing issues. Last week it took over 5 hours to
reinstall an update - several times longer than would be needed to install
windows or Linux from scratch.

I might install cinnamon next time he brings it by

~~~
tempguy9999
Perhaps install cinnamon in a VM like VirtualBox and let him roam over that
first? See how he feels.

~~~
groundCode
I’ve tried this with my dad. The problem is, he never boots up the bum to have
a go. He doesn’t really get how there can be more than one OS on his physical
machine. So basically we are stuck in a cycle of him not wanting to switch
until he’s used to the “new” thing but him never using the new thing.

~~~
Moru
This is a bit hard to understand for young people, I know :-)

Older people have already spent so much time on learning new stuff that they
feel spending even more time to learn something they already know how to do is
a waste of time. I'm slowly moving into this category myself. Why do you have
to redesign something that works just fine? Just because you want to get paid
more is not ok reason.

------
aaomidi
I just want them to let me pick my own god damned name for the home folder. I
hate the weird shit they pick for me.

~~~
NotSammyHagar
why do people still use windows? It's stupid and naive to ask that, but I keep
wondering why devs aren't successful in getting changes made at their
companies.

~~~
jrockway
I use Windows because pretty much every program ever runs on Windows. Buy some
weird device? Hey, it has drivers! Want to play the latest game? Hey, there's
a Windows version! The same is simply not true of other platforms. The reality
is that it's the most popular OS, so when someone can only write their
computer program once, they do it for Windows. It sucks, but that's how it is.

I use Linux for pretty much all my work, though, preferring a Linux VM to a
Windows-native setup. I have tried to make Powershell usable, but the console
is terrible (and the replacements are equally bad) and the language itself
isn't that amazing. (Their "curl" equivalent requires you to open IE once to
activate some setting, for example.) I also hate putty. Never in the history
of computing has a program made it so difficult to use the same font for every
server you connect to, or to talk to something on a serial port, etc. The way
Windows deals with serial ports and the like is so silly that I just have an
RPi on my desk for interacting with USB devices... I ssh to that, and then
don't deal with Windows anymore.

~~~
TheRealDunkirk
You may be interested in MobaXterm. Don't let the name fool you; it's a good
SSH client for Windows. I spent 20 years or so hassling with PuTTY, and just
discovered this a few months ago. More people should know about it. I still
need pagent for git, and the like, but at least Moba solves the set-the-
terminal-options-once-for-all-SSH-sessions problem.

------
anonytrary
I really dislike this online-only trend. It feels like a step backwards in
usability design. If anything, every app should strive to be offline-first.

Microsoft is turning everyone's PCs into internet nodes that collect data and
stats. It's a way for them to get more social and behavioral data on their
incredibly large market.

I sure miss Windows 7. Microsoft ruined things with Vista, which 7 fixed. They
ruined 7 with 8 and 9, which 10 sort of fixed. They're ruining 10 by including
all of these "modern" features like an AI assistant, and having an "account"
on their backend.

------
cm2187
And what happens if the account get suspended (which Microsoft is known to
occasionally randomly do)? You can’t login into your own physical machine?

------
cable2600
I can't wait until ReactOS is out of beta:
[https://reactos.org/](https://reactos.org/)

There needs to be an alternative to Windows out there that actually uses
Windows apps and drivers. WINE in Linux is not good enough for me yet.

They just released a new version of ReactOS and I haven't checked it out yet.
If it can run Google Chrome and run MS-Office and Visual Studio I might just
switch to it.

------
phendrenad2
Everyone knows the saying "If you're not paying for it, you're the product,
not the customer". Well, when companies I've paid good money to still go
against my wishes, I just assume I'm still partially the product... meaning
I'm not paying them enough and they've sought other sources of income (or have
removed features to simplify the product and devote less human-hours to
maintaining it to cut costs).

So what I'm saying is... Who out there is willing to make an OS at a
$xxx/license price point that will just fucking do what I want? Any takers?

------
Osiris
At least it can sleep and resume reliably. I have a Linux laptop and desktop
and work and both of them crash on either suspend or resume.

Actually, I installed the latest mainline kernel and managed to get my desktop
to resume once, but the second resume locks up the whole system.

So now I just do a full power off every day when I leave.

The laptop is System 76 and comes with PopOS pre-installed and I still have
issues whenever I have external monitors attached.

Linux as a daily driver is a frustrating experience, though I do really
appreciate the customization (I love i3).

~~~
WWLink
I had that problem with my Windows laptops too, especially the Precision 7245
I had! GRR I hated that laptop.

------
goatinaboat
FTA

 _They have not removed it, it just is not visible by default if you are
connected to the internet._

So it’s just a UI issue

~~~
pndy
This is more a dark pattern issue: user who's connected to the Internet during
OOBE stage of installation will be forced to create or login with online
account because it won't have other choice visible while the choice still
exist but is simply hidden, because of MS "goals".

~~~
labawi
Can confirm. I was installing Win10 for a fried a few weeks ago and couldn't
create a local account. After a couple minutes of search to no avail, I tried:

Just how is that supposed to work if I unplug the internet?

By letting you create a local account, of course.

~~~
pndy
Last time I had to reinstall, OOBE creator nagged me twice to go online when
it couldn't detect network connection - it even show me Wifi page while my PC
has an older motherboard that doesn't feature it. That was kinda... desperate.

------
jfoster
It's funny how expectations being set differently can lead to such massively
different reactions.

Chrome OS or Android devices require Google accounts? No problem.

Windows requires a Microsoft account? So angry!

I think there's also something to be said for the ubiquity and usefulness of
these accounts outside of the OS setup. I don't really feel that I need a
Microsoft account in my life and I can't say for certain whether I have one or
not. I definitely have a Google account which I use many times per day.

~~~
BlueTemplar
You're confusing Android with Google Services?

~~~
jfoster
When you buy most Android phones and want to use them in the way most people
do, you're going to be dancing with Google Services.

~~~
BlueTemplar
Most people don't use offline accounts in Windows 10 either...

------
miki123211
I always tell peole to use offline accounts. Microsoft, in their eternal
wisdom, sets your username to your first name when you do the on line account
thing. If you're John or Chuck, it's fine, if you have non ascii characters in
there, it's not. Some programs crash when saving to C:\Users\Yourname if
Yourname contains non asci chars. Some even create a separate user folder with
a broken encoding.

------
Kuinox
I setuped a Windows VM today. It's still easy to do, but you need to know
where it is, or to persist like me: clicking around then i found it behind
"set up for organization" and "domain join instead".

------
paweladamczuk
It's refreshing for me to read this thread. I've had the same issues, worries
and irritations about Microsoft and Windows for a long time. I just never know
how vocal I should be about them. I am surrounded by people who use Windows to
write code, test software, manage, etc. every day, but they don't really seem
to care or notice anything's wrong. This makes me anxious about sharing my
concerns - what if they're just a personal illusion driven by some unconscious
biases? My guess is I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Some might say that whining about these things is counterproductive. I
disagree. I don't want Microsoft to fail. I don't want people to hate
Microsoft. I want every company to make good products and expend its
employees' efforts in a productive way. I believe filling out feedback forms
is not the best way to go about trying to change the curremt state. I think
that once enough people in our field know about those issues and voice their
concerns, we can somehow push Microsoft back in the right direction. And even
if that's a pipedream, our comments might help people forced to use Windows at
work to go about it somewhat more securely and conveniently.

When it comes to my personal experience, I've recently had Windows: force me
to update (gave me 20 minutes to save my work); install some software I don't
need during the update and then prompt me to log in (namely, MS Teams); break
bluetooth drivers (they work now but not as well as they used to); make the
machine get stuck in the boot process (I had to reset it and pray no data was
lost); change the wallpaper.

I just want to do my job. I don't need updates for that. I might need the
security ones, but trying to install Teams on my machine and breaking other
stuff in the process while all I need is Visual Studio and a working OS really
grinds my gears.

EDIT: formatting, minor errors

------
arwhatever
Someone cleverly pointed out that Windows changed from "My Computer" to "This
PC" in recent years.

------
pbhjpbhj
Rant: I'm just using MS Win for the first time after 15 years of using Linux
(most recently KDE/Plasma on Ubuntu) .. how does anyone not throw the thing
out the window.

I have a surface pro with dock for extra screens. Every time you undock-redock
you now have to rearrange your windows .. no workspaces? Does anyone at MS
even use their stuff? Why would it not show a "docked view" and "undocked
view" automatically?

As for the lack of "keep above", and nevermind "focus follows mouse but don't
raise", ... argh.

You can install apps to fix these things (some AutoHotKey based, for example)
but as a daily work tool it seems awfully deficient; and of course our IT
people won't allow installs.

It doesn't seem feature complete for the basic task of window management.

------
zarkov99
I don't get why people who have a choice keep taking this abuse. Stockholm
Syndrome perhaps? I switched from Windows to Linux about 6 years ago and my
computing experience went from having to deal with soul crushing bullshit
every day, to feeling productive and in control of my environment again. Sure,
there is the initial pain of having to learn a new environment and admittedly
the GUI experience is a bit less polished, but jeez, how can any one take the
inexorable, insidious, malevolent take over of their computing experience by
this bullshit? Just bite the bullet, install Kubuntu on hardware known to work
and move on. You will be in pain for about 2 weeks and happy from point on.

~~~
ulkesh
Specific games. That’s the only reason I keep running Windows. Otherwise I
would be on Linux full time.

------
Sir_Cmpwn
Use an operating system which respects you as the owner of your computer, not
as a commodity to be exploited.

~~~
rvz
I agree, but unfortunately, end-users just want to buy products that just work
without fiddling around with settings, etc.

The HN audience and generally programmers are usually pro-Linux which makes
sense, but they keep forgetting that apps like Office, Adobe, etc are only on
Windows / Mac which Linux has to resort to fiddling with hacks like Wine which
is not enough for an out-of-the-box experience with end-users.

The mindshare, user experience of Mac and Windows just prevents end-users from
bothering to try, fiddle and learn Linux just to do serious work for anyone
that is not a programmer these days.

~~~
Sir_Cmpwn
Arguments like this also ignore the success of Chromebooks. The "average"
person doesn't actually care about the things you listed. Some professionals
might. But the average person isn't a photoshop user, and libreoffice works
well enough. A default Ubuntu install doesn't require much if anything in the
way of settings mungery, and I recall many a nightmare of getting drivers
working on Windows back in the day.

~~~
rvz
> A default Ubuntu install doesn't require much if anything in the way of
> settings mungery...

I don't think any user would be bothered in attempting to install Ubuntu to
replace Windows unless they are 'tech-savvy' enough or a software engineer.
Such users would only see that as a double negative in losing their apps + UX
mental model just to get things done. They first have to unlearn Windows/Mac
and then replace their missing apps just use the selected Linux OS (Ubuntu,
ChromeOS, etc) which just isn't worth it.

> I recall many a nightmare of getting drivers working on Windows back in the
> day.

Yes, Windows is a nightmare for getting drivers working, but I have heard
worse stories of Linux users complaining about X11/Wayland bringing down their
desktop plus the graphical issues Wine has when running Windows apps and
games.

~~~
Sir_Cmpwn
I'm not going to entertain any more ideas of "users are stupid and therefore
cannot figure out an Ubuntu installation". It's extremely simple and I don't
have that little faith in the average person. It's _not_ hard, and I'd
appreciate it if we dropped this stupid argument once and for all. It's
defeatist and false.

>Yes, Windows is a nightmare for getting drivers working, but I have heard
worse stories of Linux users complaining about X11/Wayland bringing down their
desktop

In the last 10 years? This is no longer a problem.

>plus the graphical issues Wine has when running Windows apps and games.

The "average user" doesn't care. They want to read Facebook. See my previous
comment.

~~~
rvz
> I'm not going to entertain any more ideas of "users are stupid and therefore
> cannot figure out an Ubuntu installation". It's extremely simple and I don't
> have that little faith in the average person. It's not hard, and I'd
> appreciate it if we dropped this stupid argument once and for all. It's
> defeatist and false.

Realistically the "average user" has better things to do than to install
Ubuntu or another OS these days just to get work done. It's even better for
Windows users thanks to WSL which gives them less of a reason to switch to a
Linux distro or even to buy a Chromebook. Android is a good example of what
the mess of the Linux distros should have been but for mobile.

> In the last 10 years? This is no longer a problem.

Well you brought up an anecdote about Windows as so did I for Linux. But as
with both graphics cards and their drivers, this is still an eternal issue on
the majority of Linux distros, especially those who keep using NVIDIA and
Intel.

> The "average user" doesn't care. They want to read Facebook. See my previous
> comment.

Exactly. Why should the "average user" bother with all that trouble in
switching/migrating if Windows / Mac users have everything Linux has to offer
but with a sainer environment and established support and ecosystem.

------
kstenerud
I recently set up a ci system in Windows, spending over a month getting things
working with various versions of visual studio, etc.

I tried with Windows 10, and widows server 2019. The end result was that
Windows 2019 is super fast to set up, and literally compiled the same c code
in half the time it took in Windows 10. The user interface was a lot snappier,
and just felt nice, like how xp felt after disabling all the eye candy.

If it weren't for the insane pricing, server 2019 would be the ultimate
windows os...

------
Tagbert
I dislike this because I would need to use a much more complex password for my
home computer. Or I can choose to use a simpler to type/remember password for
the online account and I don’t feel comfortable with that.

I’m sure that many of you use long complex passwords for your computers but I
don’t for my home computer. I have to type if often to login and the
environment is not a high risk area. I do use longer and more random passwords
for accounts with a wider exposure.

------
rasengan0
When I use ChromeOS, Windows 10 or MacOS El Capitan

I guess I'm trading convenience for ...?

Is there any computer vendor that does not call the mothership or need these
special vendor accounts?

ChromeOS <\-- GalliumOS Windows <\--- ? Apple <\--- ?

Where do I buy a decent computer these days that respects user privacy without
jumping through legal hoops?

Or is the last operating system, GNU/Linux - Linux that respects the user?

System76? ZaReason? puri.sm? <\-- very small marketshare

Back in the day, my Apple //e never used to do that. Times have changed.

------
Karliss
Is macOS usable without without apple account? Last time I was given a MacBook
at work it seemed that updates go through their appstore app which requires
apple account.

~~~
mrtksn
App updates and OS updates are in separate places.

in MacOS, the Apple account is about syncing the iCloud stuff with your Mac.

------
edwinyzh
This is unbelievably bad decision for a Desktop OS!

------
MisterTea
I'm sitting typing this on an my Windows 7 PC I built in 2011. Used to game a
bit but that declined so the quad core and 16GB in this thing have been more
than enough for my needs. It keeps running and I keep it patched.

I've been holding off upgrading to Windows 10 as I wanted to see how Microsoft
would handle the cloud/cortana/ad/telemetry nonsense. I'm glad I waited; It'll
never run on my home machines. My Linux box is seeing more and more use and my
laptop is now running Alpine Linux.

My only gripe is I work in industrial automation, a field who unfortunately
embraced Windows as a platform to build their tools on. This is a huge ball
and chain that I'd rather not drag around anymore. So I'm still stuck giving
my money to these schmucks.

Sigh. Go away Microsoft. Just leave us alone and stop chaining us down with
your bullshit. It's been 20+ years of whining about stupid draconian Ms
bullshit. I'm so fucking tired of this.

------
jtdev
Stuff like this is why I switched to Mac for daily use about 2 years ago. On
the rare occasion that I have to get on a Windows machine, I’m shocked by how
poor the experience is in comparison to MacOS. Not looking back, the MBA is a
good value and the hardware is undeniably more refined and higher quality.

------
yyyk
I can't see what on earth can MS gain from making this change. What does
Microsoft gain from users having a "Microsoft account"?

If they go to a services model their Windows marketshare _will_ plummet. As
soon as users have to directly pay a monthly fee, all the Linux UX issues will
seem meaningless.

------
hermitdev
Um, I just installed the latest Win 10 Development VM on Tuesday from a
download of the image the same day, and it most certainly allowed me to
install with a non MS account. I dont have the exact build number on hand, but
its supposed to be the fast insider ring, from what I read.

~~~
noisem4ker
It's probably the 18970 build. Yes, it allows you to. Yes, Microsoft already
reverted the change that some redditor just discovered.

[https://www.pcworld.com/article/3409788/how-microsoft-
made-i...](https://www.pcworld.com/article/3409788/how-microsoft-made-it-
harder-to-create-windows-10-local-accounts.html)

------
dbg31415
I don't use Sir, or Alexa, or Cortana. I think the always-on voice recordings
are terrifyingly creepy. Hate that they've been invented at all.

A friend of mine came over, with his kid, and I offered to let him watch TV
while we talked. 2 minutes later the kid is bawling is eyes out... He couldn't
figure out how to make the TV work without talking at it. I handed him a
remote, and it was like ancient Egyptian algebra.

Anyway, terrifying glimpse of what's to come. Consumers that don't know how to
push any buttons. Who find even using a mouse to be too complicated. Scares me
a bit because the tools to create content aren't in that space... by making
usage so silly easy, we diminish opportunities to build skills that help turn
users into creators.

------
eatonphil
Tangent: I've been running Windows 10 on my work laptop since January 2019 and
I use the PIN feature for login. Every so often I'll try to enter my PIN to
log in and it says something along the lines of "your pin is not available".
What on earth does that mean? The messaging is absurd and gives me no
indication of what to do. I don't believe it's directly related to network
availability because I'll retry again in a few minutes and it is still
unavailable. The only reliable means to get around this is to reboot or enter
my full username and password by typing 60 characters in from 1Password on my
phone.

~~~
mwheeldown
TPM-chip acting up somehow maybe?

------
rietta
I ran into that with my last test VM setup. Very annoying. I'm glad my daily
driver is Ubuntu Linux for development. Went with the Dell XPS 13 Developer
Edition on this refresh cycle and the hardware support has been perfect.

------
mistaken
You can still switch to Audit mode during install using SHIFT-F2, follow
[https://bartsimons.me/sysprep-generalize-windows-image-
witho...](https://bartsimons.me/sysprep-generalize-windows-image-without-
oobe/) to disable OOBE, then replace e.g. Narrator.exe with cmd.exe and set an
administrator password. After that you can revert Narrator.exe back. It's a
bit complicated, but it works and you don't have to create any additional
accounts if you don't want to.

------
everyone
@Everyone 'Windows 10 LTSB' is the true user-focused version of Windows 10.

Its become one of my favourite OSes.

It doesnt come with any shit on it (windows store, xboxlive, cortana etc etc.)
MS have also promised It will not receive _any_ updates that change its
functionality but _will_ receive security updates, for 10 years. You can only
get it if u buy in bulk tho. Or, u can just get it from tpb.. Considering MS
are intentionally not selling by far the most user-respecting version of their
OS to regular folks, it behooves us to pirate it.

~~~
GordonS
I think you can also get it if you have a Visual Studio subscription
(previously called an MSDN subscription) or an Action Pack subscription. The
Action Pack is _incredible_ value, BTW.

------
neop1x
I have been using Arch Linux for 5+ years exclusively and I don't plan to
change that. There have been a few issues over time, but overall it meets all
my needs. Even video editing is fine with Kdenlive, Cinelerra GG or OpenShot.
Gaming support improved with DXVK and Lutris. There is VSCodium IDE and also
webapps are popular. Unless you must use SW like Photoshop, there is little
reason to use Windows anymore... Just check HW compatibility when buying a new
HW (e.g. printer, scanner support) and you will be fine.

------
decafbad
If I use my live.com account, Windows sets system username automatically with
first five letters of my first name. Then I see this stupid choice every time
I open Windows console.

~~~
derrikcurran
Yeah, I've always found that behavior really annoying. And it's basically
impossible to fix it after the fact without making a separate account. The
trick, if you know it before hand, is to make a local account (I guess you
need to be offline for that now) and then link it later.

------
glandium
Relatedly, when I wanted to enable full disk encryption on Windows 10 Home, it
insisted that I switch to online account (as in, it was impossible to enable
FDE until I did). WTF?

~~~
tobias3
I kind of understand this decision. Users forget their account password and
lock themselves out. Then they complain about Windows loosing all their data.
With an online account they can reset their password via mail, etc.

There definitely should be an option to encrypt it like the in the pro
version, but then you could also just buy the pro version (then you can also
disable auto-updates...). It's not really expensive in the EU.

~~~
glandium
Is there an available Pro update for arm64? Heck, I couldn't even find an
install image for the version I have, and for some reason, Windows reset
doesn't work, so I hope Windows won't hose itself ever on that machine,
because it will then be a brick.

------
monkeycantype
Oh that’s so annoying, it’s the only 100% reliable way I’ve found to not have
my user folder not named the first five letters of my truncates username.

Edit: oh it’s not gone, it’s hidden

------
bencollier49
This is good to know. I was about to buy a Windows machine to use with an
EEPROM programmer (using most of them with a Mac or Linux is a faff) but this
just stopped me.

------
fractalf
Another ex-win7/10 user here who switched to Linux Mint because of stuff like
this and a lot of simular sh*t. Never looked back and sorry I didnt do it
before.

------
adontz
To workaround a lot of other similar issues, to remove crapware bundled with
Windows, to move entire profiles (and not just some folders) to another disk,
to make installation experience much more pleasant I use NTLite. Windows setup
can actually install Windows we want. Just it is not exposed to GUI and
Microsoft original configuration tools are extremely terrible and confusing.

------
z3t4
This is what the market wants. There are good alternatives like BSD, Solaris,
various Linux distributions for those that want more control. And for those
that enjoy the lock in there is also Apple devices and Chromebooks. It would
be interesting if Intel and others would create an open Linux core enterprise
pre installed OS with decentralized options for support and services.

------
thom
For the last year I have been logged into Windows as my son (complete with
getting weekly screentime reports about myself) because I once tried to set up
a network game of Minecraft and somehow this associated a Microsoft account
with my previously offline user account. There is no way to undo this without
creating a new account from scratch and deleting the old one.

~~~
BlueTemplar
Yeah, Microsoft accounts have always been a horrible mess...

------
hackerm0nkey
What puzzles me is that with al these problems and the ongoing worsening of Ms
Windows, people are still using it. I just don’t get it ️

------
sandworm101
Another great day for linux.

~~~
tim58
I'm sad Windows still has a (basic) monopoly on computer gaming.

~~~
sandworm101
Who told you that? Look at all the games on steam proton. All the best indi
games run fine on linux. I was playing eve online last night and subnautica a
few days ago. Ksp, factorio, minecraft ... there are tons of great games on
linux.

~~~
stOneskull
Including Thimbleweed Park, the best game ever

~~~
pnako
Never heard of it. It looks like Monkey Island, which is IMHO one of the best
games ever.

~~~
stOneskull
it's made by the guy who made monkey island. you'll love it. i was so stoked
to have my book on the library shelf in the game. there were user submissions
while the game was in progress and it really added something special to it.

------
qwerty456127
I wasn't offered the “use offline account” option when I was installing
Windows 10 home edition but I've then restarted the installation with the
Internet wire detached and it was there.

If there is no way to use an offline account any more I'm certainly not
installing. Bye, Windows, it has been amazing 25-yr-long adventure I've
enyoyed, thank you and bye.

------
jandrese
I've never created an online account with Microsoft. I don't see any advantage
in giving them my login information. It makes me mad every time I have to
pixel hunt for the link that is way down in the corner and one shade darker
than the background. Like people at Microsoft have to know this is absolute
bullshit and yet they keep doing it.

------
dlbucci
Man, I just set up a Windows laptop for my wife past week and made sure to
skip it. I guess she bought it at just the right time...

------
unityByFreedom
Is Windows necessary? I used macs when I was a kid, and now Ubuntu. Never had
to deal with any of this OS-level garbage.

------
caconym_
In theory I have two Microsoft accounts but I think there was a botched DB
migration at some point because they've been merged somehow into a weird
broken state that shows info from both.

I tried to contact Microsoft support to get this fixed but they were totally
useless, and that's when I gave up. Not going back.

------
thepear
The option isn’t gone, it’s under Join Domain, which allows you to create a
local user as previous versions have.

------
lp001
Microsoft Windows 10 is the least secure OS on the market. Tracking, spying
on, selling all user data to the highest bidder. MS is an abomination to
privacy and security.

I still have an installed copy of Win 8 for special use if need be. However, I
am avoiding the use MS products if at all possible.

------
noodlesUK
Is this true even on more enterprisey versions of windows? I tend to use py-
kms to activate licenses when I rarely need them (such as on VMs), and I
generally stick to workstation or LTSB versions of windows. LTSB is actually
pretty nice.

------
isawczuk
I'm not a user of MacOs, but does Apple allow to use their system without
AppleId?

------
davidvgoliath
This is why I pirate Windows Server and KMS activate with an instance of
vlmcsd on my home router (with the DNS SRV wizardry set up to allow automatic
discovery). You can pay and pray, or you can vote both with your dollar and
wits!

------
m0xte
They did this with office 2019 activation as well. I’m actually done now with
them.

------
black_puppydog
I just want to point out that nobody should really be surprised by this. It's
essentially why I dropped windows like a hot potato when Windows 8 asked me to
make an account tmfor the first time.

------
socrates667
This might sound insane, but there is a literal cult taking over Microsoft
with the explicit intent on spying on people and dominating the conversation
regarding privacy. Just a hunch.

------
joewee
Realized after buying a windows laptop you can’t get bitlocker or drive
encryption without having a MS account or paying for pro. So security isn’t a
feature, it’s a paid add-on.

~~~
GordonS
VeraCrypt is a good alternative.

------
kitchenkarma
But but Microsoft is goood! Look GitHub! Linux! Open Souwce! I only use
Windows because software I need doesn't work on Linux.

------
TekMol
How is the situation in the Apple world these days?

Can you still activate an iPhone or iPad without providing a telephone number?

------
romanovcode
Nothing was removed. It was just obfuscated like it was before. Disconnect the
internet and it will work.

------
dghughes
I'm waiting for the day when advertising is built into the kernel as a
fundamental part of the OS.

------
rock_artist
Maybe that's part of Microsoft ongoing effort to make users switch from
Windows to Linux :)

------
jimnotgym
If this is true, what do you do about a machine that is going to be joined to
a domain?

------
adreamingsoul
Which is why my windows 7 box will remain on windows 7 and unplugged from the
internet.

------
morpheuskafka
Surely it is still there, how else could a business set up a PC to join on-
premises AD?

------
swayvil
Yet another reason to use Linux.

------
carlosrg
AFAIK, the removed it in version 1803 or 1809 but added it back in 1903.

------
boobePhuu7iet7i
So you cant install if you're not connected to the internet?

------
HashThis
Move to Apple computers. This is wrong. Vote with your dollars.

------
denkmoon
Increasingly Windows relegates itself to a launcher for Steam.

------
andrerm
Microsoft just came late to the behavioral profiling party

------
HocusLocus
LOL to anyone who didn't see this coming

------
xornox
I removed Windows when installed Ubuntu.

------
exabrial
What is the profit driver behind this?

------
Endy
So what happens if you use a soldering iron and cut out the network chip from
a laptop, or don't put a network card in the desktop?

------
_pmf_
Switch and bait; works every time.

------
runn1ng
Buy pirated Windows LTSC on ebay (or actual, if you have 260 usd to spare), it
solves most of Windows 10 problems

~~~
userbinator
If you're going to pirate, might as well pirate Windows Server, which is
basically the same kernel with a far less offensive (and bloated) userland
configuration.

~~~
runn1ng
Isn’t LTSC better as a desktop? It’s just Windows 10 without the user hostile
crap.

But I have never run Windows Server

~~~
userbinator
I'm not sure, I've not tried LTSC --- but the fact that I've met a few
_Microsoft employees_ who run the Server version on their company desktops and
even laptops (because as an employee, they can get legit licenses for
basically free) speaks volumes about what they think of Win10...

------
dschuetz
It's hidden, not removed.

------
dlphn___xyz
are there any decent ms office alternatives for linux (not libreoffice)?

~~~
commoner
Yes, there are several. All three of the following are free of charge on
Linux.

OnlyOffice is an open source office suite that has native support for
Microsoft Office formats (.docx, .xlsx, .pptx). There is a desktop version
that works offline and an online version that integrates with Nextcloud. There
are also mobile apps (closed source).

Home page: [https://www.onlyoffice.com](https://www.onlyoffice.com)

Download: [https://www.onlyoffice.com/download-
desktop.aspx](https://www.onlyoffice.com/download-desktop.aspx)

GitHub:
[https://github.com/ONLYOFFICE/DesktopEditors](https://github.com/ONLYOFFICE/DesktopEditors)

WPS Office (previously known as Kingsoft Office) is a closed source office
suite that works on Linux. The software is quite popular in China, and the
Android app has over 100 million downloads on the Play Store.

Homepage: [https://www.wps.com/office/linux](https://www.wps.com/office/linux)

Download: [http://wps-community.org/downloads](http://wps-
community.org/downloads)

Flatpak:
[https://flathub.org/apps/details/com.wps.Office](https://flathub.org/apps/details/com.wps.Office)

FreeOffice is another closed source office suite for Linux.

Homepage: [https://www.freeoffice.com/en](https://www.freeoffice.com/en)

Download:
[https://www.freeoffice.com/en/download/applications](https://www.freeoffice.com/en/download/applications)

------
m-p-3
Title should be modified. It's not removed, it's hidden in a dark pattern.

------
bricss
Long life for a Linux!

------
sbhn
Apple forced you to use an apple account for as long as i can remember

------
zmix
This is why we need government regulations.

------
RedComet
Disturbing.

------
Crosseye_Jack
I am unable to replicate these findings and I did 3 fresh installs in a VM.
For Ref I used US install media but I am in the EU so maybe they are doing
this based on region based on my IP address all 3 test where done while online
(couldn't be arsed to VPN to the states to test).

(I only have pro license's to hand, maybe its diff with home licenses, EDIT:
Just got a home license. I'll test with that for the shits and giggles off it.
But honestly, we should be installing pro for people so we have easier control
via group policies anyways BRB testing more now i'm back home.)

First test: I installed a fresh copy of Retail Win 10 Pro 1903 downloaded
today from [https://microsoft.com/en-gb/software-
download/windows10iso](https://microsoft.com/en-gb/software-
download/windows10iso) (Note: unless you fake your UA to be something other
than windows it will redirect you to the media creation tool download. Say you
are an iphone for example it will happily let you download the raw ISO without
the media creation tool) During install it gives me the option to use an
offline account in the bottom left [0].

Second test: I installed a fresh copy of Windows 10 Pro 18970 insider build
from [https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-
download/windowsins...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-
download/windowsinsiderpreviewadvanced) downloaded today again it gave me the
option to use a local account in the bottom left [1]

(note: the two pic's will look the same, but they were taken from the 2 diff
iso's - granted it will try its hardest to get me to change my mind during the
rest of the set up but the option is there.)

Third Test: I installed a fresh copy of Windows 7 Pro with obv a local
account, I then upgraded 7 pro to 10 1903 pro using the media creation tool, I
selected the option to keep my existing files and apps and allowed the upgrade
to take. Told setup NO to all the extra's (location, personal ad's etc etc
etc) and the install took using the existing local account and didn't prompt
me to "upgrade" to an MS account.

As for real hardware I upgraded a friend of the families laptop 2 weeks ago
from 7 to 10 using the media creation tool and it again upgraded without
pestering for an MS account. (And I'll be upgrading another in the next week
or two when they are ready for me to do it. They would rather have the process
hand holded for them incase of any oddness during the process, so I'll be able
to report back then)

I'll bash MS as much as the next person but I'm unable to replicate these
findings. I know they try their hardest to push an MS account onto people (I
run the insider build on my personal rig and every major update I get a prompt
about all the wonderful things a MS account brings... But I am still able to
say Nope, local account thanks :-)

[0]
[https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_10-07-10-552.png](https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_10-07-10-552.png)

[1]
[https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_10-21-05-939.png](https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_10-21-05-939.png)

EDIT: Fresh install with home and they moved the offline button. Typed in some
random numbers in the account bar [2] and it gave me the option to use an
offline account on the next page [3] which then took me though the process of
creating a local account [4] - Is it an annoying dark pattern? Yes. Did they
remove local accounts? Nope.

[2]
[https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_17-32-57-607.png](https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_17-32-57-607.png)

[3]
[https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_17-33-17-029.png](https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_17-33-17-029.png)

[4]
[https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_17-36-37-343.png](https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_17-36-37-343.png)

------
CzarnyZiutek
it is pretty old news...

------
xaduha
LTSC

------
egdod
>Windows is a service

Windows used to be a fucking operating system. That’s all I want it to be.

~~~
amiga-workbench
Its pretty much the McDonalds of operating systems these days, I do not know
how people put up with it.

~~~
manigandham
What else is any average user going to switch to exactly?

~~~
allset_
Linux? Basically everything an average user does is in the browser.

~~~
arbitrary_name
As a privacy concerned individual who is more tech savvy than some (but by no
means a technologist or even a dev) - NO. no freakin' way man. I tried to do a
dual boot WIN/Linux setup once. What a shitshow - took me hours, multiple
attempts, drivers not working, weird quirks trying to get peripherals to work,
games not working. Recalling it now makes me angry all over again.

90% of this planet is not capable, nor will ever be capable, of dealing with
something that is not a fully fledged, 'stable' mainstream OS, either Windows
or Mac OS. That's not good, it's not bad - it just...is. Better get used to
it, or come up with a better strategy for changing it.

~~~
crispinb
This is unfortunate but entirely true. I'm a software developer and though
absolutely not a Linux expert of any kind, nevertheless very far from being a
computer novice. But this is kind of my experience with Linux. I keep logs of
configuration & software difficulties I have with OSs. My Linux one for this
month is longer than my Windows & OSX ones for the past decade combined.

And I'm writing here as (currently) a Linux user - it's the main OS on my work
laptop because the things I like about it (stellar performance, notably from
the filesystem, fantastic developer tooling) are more important to me than the
difficult things. But the difficulties are numberless, and I accept that many
things I take for granted on Windows or OSX just will never work well. Most of
them _could_ work, but I'll never have time to track down & absorb all the
Arch wiki, SO & manpage resources I'd need to sort them out.

------
fuguza
Hmm can anybody elobrate what Bill Gates and he's wife have to do with Epstein
?

Why Bill Gates has paying to MIT thru Epstein ?

Hahaha.. yes hide me, give me minus.. no worry!

------
Fakira
I am not even sure why Windows matters anymore. MS probably gives 0 fucks
about your usual consumers and cares only about those customers who will also
buy Office365 subscription.

------
nashashmi
This post has become far too popular for something that isn't really true.
Similar to news about Xbox needing to be connected to the internet.

1\. Windows 10 always prioritized account creation with an online account
simply because it was more feature rich.

2\. Windows 10 always had an option (dark) to create account connected with no
online account. It was hidden. And discouraged.

3\. Windows 10 still offers offline account creation through user control
panel within an existing account.

4\. Imagine being able to go to any computer and logging in with your account
that is based in some other machine.

5\. Imagine going to a computer without your account that also prevents others
from logging in because it is password protected. And being able to log in
anyway through your online account.

Stop freaking out. This expands options nicely.

Edit: it would be nice to be told why the disagreement.

