
Mozilla and Google Chrome Refuse to Support Gab’s Dissenter Extension - kukx
https://hub.packtpub.com/mozilla-and-google-chrome-refuse-to-support-gabs-dissenter-extension-for-violating-acceptable-use-policy/
======
dTal
This just seems short-sighted more than anything. It doesn't sound like
there's anything technically wrong with the extension (indeed I have often
wanted just such an extension), it's merely that the "wrong sort" of people
use it. Well, banning it will keep the "wrong sort" of people using it. If
everyone jumped on the bandwagon and started using the extension as a generic
comment section, then the bright light of day would cleanse it. Instead, by
"suppressing" it, they have basically gone out of their way to create a
breeding ground.

~~~
madeofpalk
> If everyone jumped on the bandwagon and started using the extension as a
> generic comment section, then the bright light of day would cleanse it

Browser extensions aside, if we've learn anything over the past two years of
'Online', it's that this simply isn't true. You can't 'debate' hate speech
away.

~~~
Grue3
>You can't 'debate' hate speech away.

Surely you can. To believe otherwise is to believe that hate is logically
sound. It's just that people's standards for what constitutes "debate" have
lowered so much (thanks to Twitter and its ilk) that it no longer holds any
persuasive power. Consider that most people in the West were extremely racist
just a few decades ago. It didn't take free speech suppression to change this
status quo.

~~~
maeln
If you can surely debate hate away, it is extremely costing for your mental
health.

My own experience is that, when doing it face to face it's more easy, you can
really get through someone. People are less "protected" and have more
emotional connection.

But on the Internet ? I stopped trying. Every time it's the same thing: People
prefer to be 'trolls' and just throw insults and bullshit all day. Unless the
person is actually willing to have a real discussion, it's almost impossible
to "debate" anything. As soon as you are going to try to have a real argument,
an horde will just "dunk" on you throwing colorful name all around.

It's sad but i stopped believing in the possibility of having any interesting
argument on the internet if it is not amongst a small community or a very
moderated one.

~~~
Funes-
I don't think debating is ever a good means to change anyone's point of view
on any given subject. Introspection, deliberation, and personal experience, on
the other hand, are good means to that end.

Teaching by example is, to my mind, the best way someone can guide others to
those personal endeavors, which are the only ones that can grant deep and
lasting changes in our world views and beliefs.

~~~
WAHa_06x36
And teaching by example also involves setting very clear limits on what is
acceptable and what is not.

------
belorn
With safe harbour laws the concept of editorial control comes up as a legal
test that courts use to determine intermediary liability. By going this route
Mozilla is now declaring that not only are they taking responsibility of what
extensions they publish, but also how those extensions in turn are used by
users. One level deeper of indirections.

So any site which has an EULA that forbids adblockers can use this case as a
example of Mozilla exercising editorial control of extension use by users. If
Mozilla is willing to exercise editorial control over users behavior for the
dissenter extension, then the same apply for any other extension.

Looking in my list of extensions I can identify several which could be
potential abused. I would be very sad to see the kind of restrictions that
would happen if Mozilla would be forced to be liable for it.

~~~
repolfx
The real question in my mind is when do browser makers start directly blocking
websites they believe to be bad? After all both Chrome and Firefox are made by
people with very strong political views. So far they've not abused
SafeBrowsing to exercise political control over the internet, but the
companies producing them _are_ willing to block or politically rerank
extensions, web links, domain names they host, news they summarise and so on.

How long do we have before browsing to gab.ai triggers a "This page has been
blocked for your safety" page because a bunch of activists said the content
made them feel unsafe?

~~~
LyndsySimon
This is a very good point, and one that I hadn't considered. From TFA:

> When asked for more clarity on which policies Dissenter did not comply with,
> Mozilla said that they received abuse reports for this extension. It further
> added that the platform is being used for promoting violence, hate speech,
> and discrimination, but they failed to show any examples to add any
> credibility to their claims.

If that's the case, who's to say that Firefox itself hasn't been used for
these purposes?

------
gfosco
Gab is now releasing their own browser, based on Brave, without the BAT token,
and with the Dissenter extension built in. [https://github.com/gab-ai-
inc/defiant-browser](https://github.com/gab-ai-inc/defiant-browser) People
seem to like it:
[https://twitter.com/james_a_quinn/status/1125496383883042816](https://twitter.com/james_a_quinn/status/1125496383883042816)

~~~
user17843
While Brave is building from the core to the periphery, i.e. creating
something based on solid fundamentals, Gab is taking Brave and polishing it a
bit to their liking.

Due to this I suspect that the Gab browser will only get a following in a
certain sphere, i.e. ideologigcal Gab followers. Otherwise you can simply use
Brave or Chrome.

There was criticism by Eich et al. who noted that Gab is sending all kinds of
data back home.

Gab seems to be focused on providing a service to their followers, without
having the actual technical expertise to create something solid based on true
privacy.

(I.e. it doesn't matter when we collect the data because we are actually on
the right side of the fence)

Nevertheless I am excited to see where all of this is going and I welcome any
additional browser, which is good for creating a competitive market.

The fact that Gab can, without much knowledge, "create" a browser interface
within days shows how great Chromium is for the advancement of the open web.

The only thing that needs to be solved is the governance of chromium with it
becoming the de facto standard on the web.

~~~
gfosco
It's actually not true, what Eich was talking about, w/r/t data collection,
and Gab appreciated the feedback. Using a Google Font is not tracking, and the
YouTube/other embeds which are a feature of the extension have been made opt-
in. Gab has also pointed out instances of Braves data collection and analytics
gathering. Unlike Brave, the Gab team doesn't benefit from betraying user
privacy, they don't want it. Of course Gab is focused on providing a service;
they're building and shipping, defending free speech. I find the project very
interesting: A browser that focuses on free speech, on enabling easy user
modification, on refusing to be limited to what the big tech app stores say is
okay... It could be a big jumping off point.

~~~
user17843
I too find it very interesting.

Thanks to Chromium, we are seeing a diverse range of projects emerging that
cater to different groups.

Although the Dissenter extension, while a good idea, is essentially dead,
there are basically no lively discussions.

So what's the point of using their product? Most users seem to think of it as
a statement.

The idea of including BTC payments is certainly interesting, but it will fail,
too, in the sense of Gab Browser not becoming succesful beyond a very small
niche group.

Brave has been working for years to create actual incentives for the platform
to flourish, it is beyond me how the Gab team thinks they can pull something
similar off without any working incentive systems.

And Brave is not censoring anything. It is extremely difficult to build
systems that protect user privacy, this has been ongoing for years, but not
having user data is the whole point of the Brave project. If they fail with
this, they won't be succesful.

The whole point of the Gab Browser is to protect free speech, even though
strictly speaking no one has limited their free speech on a browser level,
they could get the same free speech with using Chromium+Dissenter extension.

The idea with the Browser is to anticipate possible future censorship by
Google, certainly legitimate.

Since they do not care about data, they haven't gone to great length of making
sure they don't get any user data. If I remember correctly, every url visited
in the Gab browser is sent to Dissenter, that's how the extension works.

The aggressivenes with which the Gab team goes against Brave on Twitter, wile
taking all of their hard work without a single 'thank you', is what annoys me
the most.

They seem to think free speech means everyone fighting for sensible solutions
need to be "on their side", and everyone who isn't with them is against them.

------
untog
Everyone's in favour of the free market until it does something they disagree
with. Anyone can start a new browser. Gab could fork Chromium or Firefox,
even.

Or they could probably just make a bookmarklet.

But that wouldn't get any attention and hate groups like Gab thrive on
controversies like this. HN is doing them a favour here. They're not doing
anything new or original (remember the Genius annotator, anyone?).

~~~
ShrinkingWild
Disagreement with a particular provider or producers actions within the free
market is not equal to disagreement with the free market in general. AFAIK Gab
isn't calling for regulation of the market to prevent this, so there's no
contradiction here.

In fact gab is participating in the free market exactly how you'd expect a
believer in the free market to act, they're creating their own browser:
[https://github.com/gab-ai-inc/defiant-browser](https://github.com/gab-ai-
inc/defiant-browser)

~~~
boobsbr
Well, publishing an article and complaining on Mozilla's platform is part of
the free market as well.

As long as Gab is not demanding government intervention, it's up to the
private parties to solve their conflicts.

------
okket
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance#Tolerance...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance#Tolerance_and_freedom_of_speech)

~~~
jamsch
In other words, mental gymnastics to justify that your opponents are morally
wrong and you're right, and because they're wrong, I have every right to stop
them by any means necessary.

------
zimbatm
10 years ago we had something similar already.

"Why the lucky stiff" from the ruby community wrote MouseHole, a local web
proxy that could be used to inject a commenting overlay to the web. Only the
participants would see it.

It was a lot of fun being able to comment on that overlay of the Internet.

------
tumetab1
Funny how even this article, which kind supports gab, always associates them
with terrorism (violence for political goals) while in both cases mentioned
the perpetrators used other social media networks more and with more impact.

When you get bad reputation, truth doesn't matter. Everyone "knows" they are
trash so... vaguely say it's against ToS.

Right now they should pull a corporate spin, rebrand and move on.
CommunityChat™ - a comment section for tribe and vibe; Share you goals,
feelings and achievements with a global community of mind-liked users.

~~~
WAHa_06x36
These are from [https://gab.com/popular](https://gab.com/popular) right now:

[https://gab.com/brannon1776/posts/cDQ4dUJNKzIycHRib3ZKSU9lbT...](https://gab.com/brannon1776/posts/cDQ4dUJNKzIycHRib3ZKSU9lbTNUUT09)

[https://gab.com/TheSeven/posts/NUZFZXQrTk9qS0tJVlo5SHZsYnFEZ...](https://gab.com/TheSeven/posts/NUZFZXQrTk9qS0tJVlo5SHZsYnFEZz09)

[https://gab.com/Doomer90/posts/MERObDkzVHlKK2dISDg0OFE2Um9rU...](https://gab.com/Doomer90/posts/MERObDkzVHlKK2dISDg0OFE2Um9rUT09)

[https://gab.com/IKNOWTHETRUTH1488/posts/Q1VhM3h1REJNa05udE93...](https://gab.com/IKNOWTHETRUTH1488/posts/Q1VhM3h1REJNa05udE93VHk5YjJSdz09)

Is this really what you are wanting to defend? Is this just a "bad reputation"
where "truth doesn't matter"?

~~~
xfitm3
Personally I don’t agree with any of that - but I’ll defend someone else’s
right to be wrong.

~~~
WAHa_06x36
That is easy to do when you are not threatened by these people.

But they _literally kill people_. And they will kill many more if they gain
more power. Do you think those dead people will thank you for your brave
efforts?

~~~
Funes-
>But they literally kill people. And they will kill many more if they gain
more power. Do you think those dead people will thank you for your brave
efforts?

Who are "they"? Who is _literally_ killing people? Those are very serious
accusations to just be thrown around within such a broad, imprecise, and vague
message. Moreover, who are you to decide for the rest of us what kind of
speech is deemed dangerous or otherwise? I don't think any collective's
arbitrary criteria should automatically apply to limit free speech, if there
should be a limit, that is.

These are immensely important issues that have to be decided through _very_
careful deliberation, not just a vague sentiment or subjective impression held
by a group of people, as it dictates the manner in which we communicate and
express ourselves with one another, and that shouldn't be up for grabs.

~~~
WAHa_06x36
You are aware that most of recent mass murderers have been from the far right,
many even posting on gab?

~~~
Funes-
You are aware that mass murdering is and has been carried out by people
encompassing the whole religious and political spectrum, right?

~~~
WAHa_06x36
So? That does not make this problem any less real, nor does it make it go
away.

~~~
wayneftw
So, stop paying your taxes because you're supporting the biggest terrorists of
all time.

There are way more racists than you think. The ones you see on Gab are the tip
of the iceberg and they're not even a fraction of a percent as violent as the
state-funded ones.

Also, speech is not violence.

------
beardicus
This is a bizarre blog post to have on the Packt website. Can anybody write
these? Packt already had a bit of a low-quality book-mill smell to it, and now
they're beating the "why can't the nazis catch a break" drum. Do not want.

------
kristianc
Wasn't was something similar to this in the late 90s - I can't remember the
name but I remember it having similar issues.

------
WAHa_06x36
Good. Far-right hate is unacceptable, and no company with a conscience should
ever support it.

~~~
xfitm3
Far left is no better than far right - nobody is even listening to each other
anymore.

~~~
dagw
_Far left is no better than far right_

Perhaps true in aggregate across all countries and history. Absolutely not
true in any given local situation.

~~~
DuskStar
You're kidding, right? There's no situation in which the far right is better
than the far left? Even when the far left launches a terrorist attack?

It sounds like you're defining 'far right' to be worse than 'far left', and
then presenting that relationship as your conclusion.

~~~
dagw
That's not at all what I was trying to say (and reading what I wrote I can see
how it could be misunderstood). The far left has obviously in very many places
and at very many times been absolutely horrific.

My point was that claiming that there is an equivalence between the two in
general (and specifically today in the US for example) is I believe false.
Basically talking about the "far left" and "far right" in the abstract is
meaningless as terms meaning nothing in and of themselves. You have to talk
about it in a particular time and a particular place for it to have any
meaning.

------
tuxt
Question: Does Google have freedom of speech here?

------
hsod
"free speech" has become a wedge issue, a cudgel used by crypto-fascists to
induce well-meaning centrists to actively fight for their cause. All you need
is the thinnest veneer of respectability covering your bigotry and a stampede
of individuals who nominally hate what you stand for will fight relentlessly
for your interests.

In the world of the free speech absolutist, we are all obligated to sit
politely on the sidelines listening to white nationalists recruit and further
their cause, cheered by the health of the marketplace of ideas.

Thin gruel.

------
teekert
Hmm, first time I heard of this. Maybe I can even continue some of my beloved
flagged HN discussions on there! Sounds great!

~~~
WAHa_06x36
Sure, if you are looking for somewhere to be a racist, islamaphobe or
antisemite, it's a wonderful place.

~~~
boobsbr
You sound like the stereotypical leftist redditor that calls everyone that
disagrees with you 'Hitler'.

------
kaolti
Censorship will be their downfall :)

------
stefan_
Can people stop trying to make "comment on every website" extensions happen.
That must be the 1000th attempt.

------
kljdsjiodjaof
Both browsers offer sideloaded extensions as well as open source cores that
can be set to use their own stores.

While troubling that they have such ability, they make their terms of use
clear and do offer motivated users the ability to chose alternative plugin
sources.

~~~
comex
Neither browser allows sideloaded extensions in its standard build:

Chrome:

> As of Chrome 33, no external installs are allowed from a path to a local
> .crx on Windows (see Protecting Windows users from malicious extensions). As
> of Chrome 44, no external installs are allowed from a path to a local .crx
> on Mac (see Continuing to protect Chrome users from malicious extensions).

[https://developer.chrome.com/apps/external_extensions](https://developer.chrome.com/apps/external_extensions)

Firefox:

> What are my options if I want to install unsigned extensions in Firefox?

> The Nightly and Developer Edition versions of Firefox have a preference to
> disable signature enforcement.

[https://wiki.mozilla.org/Add-
ons/Extension_Signing](https://wiki.mozilla.org/Add-ons/Extension_Signing)

~~~
madeofpalk
Sure you can. You can load unpacked extensions in Chrome - I do it all the
time when developing extensions.

~~~
starfox64_
They don't stay enabled though I think, you need to turn them back on after
every restart.

~~~
madeofpalk
That’s Safari. I have unpacked extensions loaded up in chrome all the time
because I can’t figure out how to push an update to an extension I made

