
Sherbet: An Ergonomic Gaming Keypad - zdw
https://www.billiam.org/2019/05/29/sherbet-an-ergonomic-keypad
======
jrockway
This is a pretty novel use of the low-profile Choc switches. I like it.

QMK supports ARM very strangely, but the more I think about it, the more I
like it. They use ChibiOS as an RTOS to basically schedule USB code alongside
QMK, and then they get ChibiOS's USB support for free. (Note that on many of
these ARM chips, the USB is actually handled in hardware; you just need to get
the right bytes into the right memory addresses at the right time. You don't
have to be awake at the exact instant to toggle a USB pin at exactly the
instant the protocol demands. So it works quite well; ChibiOS is not
preempting your matrix scan at random times or anything.)

Having said that, I think it's reasonable to write your own firmware. QMK
feels very very legacy right now. It is hard to use modern dev tools to work
on the code (like clangd), and the newer chips are supported in a very janky
manner because of assumptions made for the original AVRs that it ran on. I
always thought it was weird that the boards that OLKB use are among the most
jankily-supported, even though they fund the development of QMK. They also
don't really maintain all of the in-tree examples, so you'll copy someone
else's outdated keyboard code and be starting with code that barely works. (I
made an STM32F103-based keyboard recently, and the example code actually has
their own debouncing algorithm, rather than calling QMK's newish built-in
debouncing algorithm. So you get latency by default, although it hasn't
bothered me at all so I haven't fixed it.)

The model of flashing firmware to change the key layout also seems crazy to
me, in an era where you can easily enumerate as a flash drive and just drag a
JSON-encoded keymap onto it to adjust the layout. (Or just edit it live, a la
CircuitPython.) I watch new users of QMK-based keyboards struggle and give up
on a somewhat regular basis. Seems strange to me.

~~~
ihuman
> The model of flashing firmware to change the key layout also seems crazy to
> me, in an era where you can easily enumerate as a flash drive and just drag
> a JSON-encoded keymap onto it to adjust the layout. (Or just edit it live, a
> la CircuitPython.)

Are there any keyboards that have that functionality? I know Logitech allows
you to save macro key info to the hardware. However, last I saw that was only
for specific macro keys, not all keys like QMK.

~~~
jrockway
There aren't but someday I plan to write one.

QMK does already save some things into "EEPROM" (more realistically, flash on
the MCU), like whether you've enabled NKRO, which LED pattern is selected,
etc. Because it's opaque, it ends up just being another trap for the
inexperienced. "I pressed a key and now my keyboard doesn't work." Yup, that
can happen thanks to the magic of persistent storage.)

I think the reason QMK doesn't use flash for keymaps is because it was simply
designed before that was within the capabilities of the hardware it ran on. My
Ergodox firmware just barely fits in the 32k of available flash on the 32u4,
for example. But a STM32F103 has twice or 4x that much flash, so there is much
more room to breathe and add creature comforts.

(You can also use USB mass storage to flash devices, see UF2:
[https://github.com/microsoft/uf2](https://github.com/microsoft/uf2). It's so
much better than DFU or all the hacks Arduino uses.)

------
melling
Saw this alternate entry device announced at CES:

[https://www.charachorder.com/](https://www.charachorder.com/)

SelfieType, using a camera to watch your fingers, looks even more futuristic:

[https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-selfie-type-demo-
vi...](https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-selfie-type-demo-
video-1071955/)

~~~
chiefsucker
Charachorder looks like a modern attempt to produce something similar to the
Datahand (availability was always limited, and the company has gone defunct by
now):
[http://www.atpm.com/7.05/datahand.shtml](http://www.atpm.com/7.05/datahand.shtml)

The biggest issue with these devices is the huge learning curve upfront. You
need to invest a lot of time to get to a point where the productivity / speed
claims get true.

I learned Dvorak many years ago, and I would never switch back to a more
traditional layout, but I’m not sure I would recommend it to anybody in
general.

~~~
DavidVoid
There actually is a modern (almost) equivalent of the DataHand called the
Azeron gamepad [1], and there are some DIY 3D printed DataHand replicas too
[2][3].

If you want to type really fast (>200 WPM) and don't mind a VERY steep
learning curve, then getting a $95 Georgi keyboard [4] and learning steno [5]
is probably the way to go.

[1]: [https://www.azeron.eu/](https://www.azeron.eu/)

[2]:
[https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard](https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard)

[3]:
[https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.0](https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.0)

[4]:
[https://www.gboards.ca/product/georgi](https://www.gboards.ca/product/georgi)

[5]: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpv-Qb-
dB6g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpv-Qb-dB6g)

------
russellbeattie
Heh. Not one picture of his hand actually using this thing. "Oh, someone might
want to see if it works?" Gotta love that pure technical mindset.

~~~
diffeomorphism
The picture would mostly be a hand obscuring anything under it. I am not sure
how that would be useful?

~~~
PrimeDirective
a couple of additional pictures would be useful. right now I don't haven't got
an idea how to hold it. fun fact, I went to youtube what Logitech G13 is and
the first video that has anyone holding it is not even in top results.

~~~
StavrosK
What do you mean? You don't hold it, it's a keyboard. You put your left wrist
on the wrist rest, thumb on the joystick.

~~~
113
That's what they mean, using it.

------
DavidVoid
It's good to see these smaller gaming keyboards getting more common. I never
got why people who play low mouse-sensitivity games like CS:GO use full-size
keyboards that limit the space they have available for a big mousepad.

An imo more interesting ergonomic gaming keyboard is the Azeron [1]. It's
based on the old DataHand keyboards (which were way ahead of their time) and I
hope that this kind of ergonomic layout becomes more common. I don't own one
myself (I use a HHKB Pro 2), but not having to move your hands at all when
typing seems pretty comfortable.

[1]: [https://www.azeron.eu/](https://www.azeron.eu/)

~~~
rhinoceraptor
Counterstrike pros do a lot of things that seem weird at first, like playing
low resolution 4:3 on a 16:9 monitor, with black bars on the sides. That seems
ridiculous until you consider that they don't actually need that extra field
of view (since if an opponent catches you looking away, you'll lose), and it
makes player models larger on screen.

As far as keyboards, I believe most of them are using full size keyboards, not
even tenkeyless, because they need the number pad for buy binds. Also, many of
them rotate their keyboard slightly clockwise. I'm not exactly sure why, but
it does get rid of ulnar deviation as well as take up less room on the desk.

~~~
DavidVoid
>Also, many of them rotate their keyboard slightly clockwise. I'm not exactly
sure why, but it does get rid of ulnar deviation as well as take up less room
on the desk.

The reason I've always heard for that is that desk space on LAN tournaments
used to be pretty limited so they had to rotate their keyboards like that in
order to fit them, and now they're just doing it out of habit. And I get that
buy binds are convenient but it doesn't seem worth the extra desk space,
especially not when there are many other unused keys that can be used for buy
binds instead.

------
tsukurimashou
I tried the Razer Nostromo a while ago, while the idea looked nice, I couldn't
get used to it and it ended up collecting dust somewhere

~~~
detritus
Huh. Your comment resonated with me, but confused me a bit as I had a
'Nostromo' Gaming Keypad too, but I knew it wasn't from Razer, so had to go
check...

Turns out the one I had - a Belkin Nostromo N52 - was at some point replaced
by an equivalent from Razer, but 'made betterer' (
[https://support.razer.com/gaming-keyboards/razer-
nostromo/](https://support.razer.com/gaming-keyboards/razer-nostromo/) ).

Your one looked a lot better than my one, covered in dust somewhere as they
both now are!

(image of Belkin Nostrom N52:)
[https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/tBsAAOSwvgheGmiG/s-l225.jpg](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/tBsAAOSwvgheGmiG/s-l225.jpg)

~~~
astrobe_
I have a Razor Nostromo too, and I remember at some point I discovered it was
Belkin hardware (perhaps in the name of some driver). I believe Belkin
licensed it to Razor.

I was gifted one because I asked for a separate keypad for gaming. Problem is,
I am left-handed and the model I got is for _normal_ people. Yet it was quite
convenient, I have been using it for years, as testifies its poor state. A few
years ago, some games couldn't handle keypad keys properly (facking
normies...), so the fully configurable keys of the Nostromo did the trick. I
simply couldn't use the directional pad and the other thumb operated buttons
as-is (used them for rarely used stuff instead - it's still better than
reaching out for the keyboard).

------
dasKrokodil
Never mind gaming – with some slight modifications (like some thumb buttons),
two of these mirrored could make a very nice work keyboard, with the joysticks
replacing the mouse + two scroll wheels.

~~~
Symbiote
The design is based upon keyboard like that.

See the Dactyl and Dactyl Manuform.

Adding the joysticks shouldn't be as difficult as designing the whole thing
from scratch.

[https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-
keyboard](https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard)

[https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-
manuform](https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform)

------
jagger27
Nice use of Kailh's Choc switches. I wish there were other keycap options out
there for them though. It's such a shame that injection moulding is so
expensive to get off the ground.

~~~
SuperPaintMan
Weirdly enough, there's a groupbuy closing out soon for PBT Choc keycaps. It's
taken forever but it's getting there. [0]

[0] [https://www.gboards.ca/product/mbk-group-
buy](https://www.gboards.ca/product/mbk-group-buy)

~~~
jagger27
Oh wow! Thanks for sharing, I’ll probably join up.

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nick_g
Just a heads up, it looks like the link to your article "Customizing the
Logitech G13" in the first paragraph is broken

------
BossingAround
Respect to the person making it. I love ergonomic mechanical keyboards, but I
have 0 skills to make them, so I've paid several hundred dollars to the EZ
company for their Ergodox/Planck keyboards. Love both to death though.

Wish I could improve my electrical skills enough to actually make one of these
from scratch.

~~~
wy35
As someone with zero formal electrical education and have built multiple
keyboards, it really is easier than it looks. Just a decent soldering and a
build guide us all you need.

Now, designing the PCB or hand-wiring (lik in the OP) is obviously a bit more
involved. However, the most complicated circuitry is just a diode matrix. It
really is that easy.

Edit: not to take away from the OP -- his build is definitely impressive and
time-consuming. But if you're thinking of designing and building your own
keyboard, the concepts are quite simple.

------
acron0
I recently received my Dygma Raise [1] after backing on Kickstarter and also
beta tested their proof-of-concept tech, the "Shortcut". Their old version
used a thumbstick but abandoned it after feedback; I was a little disappointed
but they opted for switching the space into four separate keys which I find
pretty good as an alternative.

Very glad these kinds of devices are gaining attention. At worst, a better
gaming experience. At best, tackling RSI and allowing us to type/game for
longer.

[1]: [https://www.dygma.com/](https://www.dygma.com/)

------
lisper
I'm not a gamer so I'm having a hard time visualizing how this thing is
intended to be used. Is this for your left hand?

[UPDATE] Based on a link in another comment I went to this site:

[https://www.azeron.eu/](https://www.azeron.eu/)

It's really weird. Every image shows a device that looks like it is intended
to be used with your left hand, except for one tiny image of someone actually
using the thing. In that image, they are using it with their right hand, and
the device in that image looks like a mirror image of every other image on the
page. WTF?

~~~
DavidVoid
It is for your left hand since most gamers use the WASD keys for movement.
Here's a video of a similar design being used to play Quake.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyVSANPnLlg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyVSANPnLlg)

[EDIT] The Azeron comes in both right- and left-handed versions so that's why
some images show a right hand. The Azeron works similarly to one half of a
DataHand keyboard.

This old infomercial shows how they're used
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7UajuYCIyk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7UajuYCIyk)

~~~
lisper
Thanks.

> most gamers use the WASD keys for movement

What are they doing with their right hand? (Hm, something tells me I'm going
to be sorry I asked ;-)

~~~
DavidVoid
Mouse is always in the right hand and that's used for aiming (in shooter games
at least). Typically left click is fire and right click is aim-down-sights.

------
Mirioron
Does it actually work though? What I've found is that the positioning of the
forearms and where the weight of the arm rests tends to be the most important
thing about avoiding wrist pain.

------
leshokunin
I’ve always wanted one of these kinds of devices for gaming. Unfortunately
they’re never made for left handed people. I understand how that’s the case
for such niche accessories, but when I see a brand like Razer not having
keypads, it just means ~15% of gamers can’t use the device.

~~~
teach
Probably a bit fewer than 15%; I write left handed but comfortably game with
my right hand.

~~~
Polylactic_acid
I imagine it must be not too hard to learn to use either hand. I started a new
job and got given a shit mouse which caused me wrist pain and I found I was
able to use the left hand until I went and got my own mouse. It was a bit
awkward at first but after a few hours I felt I was 90% as good as I was with
the right hand.

~~~
numpad0
I remember many OS had "mouse button handedness: right/left" option in the 90s
while there never were "left handed keyboard" in the history.

~~~
Symbiote
There are several left handed keyboards (from a quick web search), with the
number pad and navigation keys on the left.

I don't see any with the Enter key to the left of A.

There are still left-handed mice, and OSs still include the option to switch
around the buttons. I have a mouse on either side (on Linux), with the one on
the left using flipped buttons.

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manuisin
I'd actually like to buy that.

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esaysimyan
Wow!! Looked like a lot of fun.. Hows the durability?

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DEADBEEFC0FFEE
My g13 has recently started playing up. I'm just switching to keyboard. :/

~~~
alasdair_
I used to use a Belkin N52 then an N52TE. My current gaming keyboard is a
Razer Orbweaver Chroma ([https://www.razer.com/gaming-keyboards-keypads/razer-
orbweav...](https://www.razer.com/gaming-keyboards-keypads/razer-orbweaver-
chroma)) which I’m pretty happy with - the mechanical switches are good,
although the extra row of buttons seems a bit superfluous.

~~~
petriw
After my G13 started acting up I got myself a Razer Tartarus V2 and honestly
I'm disappointed to the point I feel like I need to warn people. If you buy
Razer, make sure you can return it if you're disappointed.

First the Tartarus V2 has issues with several MMOs where keys will get "stuck"
and based on googling this has been an issue with other Razer products for 5+
years. While some may have been fixed Tartarus V2 still has the issue 2 years
after release.

Second, the Razer Synapse software pack suffers from gamer marketing bloat and
requires you to have a razer account to even allow configuring your device.

~~~
alasdair_
The razer account thing is absolutely ridiculous, I agree. What is worse is it
keeps trying to update and has broken more than once (I have a keyboard too,
and both were set up with different versions of synapse and I don’t want to
have to redo my config).

If they go bankrupt or if I lack a net connection, the hardware stops working.
Super annoying.

As for the Tartarus keys sticking - was that because it had membrane keys? Or
was it software? The orbweaver has mechanical and is the main reason I bought
it over the Tartarus.

~~~
petriw
I think it is software, or at least it can be fixed in software. Which is what
makes it so frustrating.

My workaround is to configure the whole thing as a joystick then use JoyToKey
to convert it back to keyboard inputs. No stuck keys.

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Gatsky
Wow, hadn’t heard of Meshroom before, amazing functionality.

