
‘Re-education’, forced labour and surveillance beyond Xinjiang - hardmaru
https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghurs-sale
======
aptidude187
As an Apple fanboy, I feel deeply conflicted to find Apple on the list and
also Tim's approval & visit to one of the factories exploiting forced labor. I
feel like a hypocrite, who supports human rights abuses through forced labour.

All the years I stubbornly rejected my friend's and colleague's criticism from
the open source & linux community for being eccentric and making 'exaggerated'
arguments, but now I am so deeply engrossed in the Apply ecosystem, that I
fear a switch to some linux distribution would be unmanageable for me.

Ironically I feel like a slave of Apple myself. What could I do tho? Switch to
some other brand and then find out, that they operate with the same unethical
behaviour!? I'm just deeply conflicted.

~~~
Ididntdothis
We need laws that prevent this stuff. If you avoid all companies that have
connections with China then not many will be left to choose from. From a
company’s point of view it’s also difficult to compete with others who deal
with China.

It’s similar to environmental rules. A single company can’t do much as long as
it’s possible for others to keep polluting and be cheaper that way.

One of government’s tasks is to level the playing field so everybody can
compete while following the same rules. Same thing for workplace safety, child
labor and a ton of other things. We need rules for acceptable standards

~~~
hutzlibu
What kind of law will help? A law that forbids trade with bad states?

Shopping will be hard after that ...

~~~
jacobush
Exactly that law.

~~~
hutzlibu
Alright, but you know, that quite some people would add the US to that list,
too?

You know, private operated prisons, starting wars, torturing, kidnapping,
dronestriking around the world called "extrajucidal killing" etc. etc. etc.

This world is not a simple one, so I doubt simple laws can change basic flaws.

~~~
ryukafalz
> Alright, but you know, that quite some people would add the US to that list,
> too?

> You know, private operated prisons, starting wars, torturing, kidnapping,
> dronestriking around the world called "extrajucidal killing" etc. etc. etc.

Sure, and you know what? If that were ever the justification for trade
restrictions with the US, it’d be well deserved.

I’d prefer if we as a country took the moral high ground, but in the absence
of that, some pressure from outside could be a good thing.

~~~
hutzlibu
Hm. But pressure from whom?

Russia, india, brasil, pakistan? Probably not ...

The EU? Well, we have for example this glorious law that mainly because of the
holocaust, we don't kick people out who come asking for help and have no other
safe place to go. But since we don't actually want them, we pay and support
other dictators and warlords to keep them away from us, so they cannot ask for
help in the first place and we punish people who rescue those wrong people
from drowning, when they dare to take them to a safe place where they ask for
help.

So who is left?

Switzerland? Maybe, but they for example had never a problem with taking all
the dirty money and doing buusness with anyone, as long as its money.

This world is not black and white, but yeah, there surely are places which are
a lot darker and if we believe to be in a lighter place, we can't feel
superior if our wealth is based on those very dark places.

------
bespokedevelopr
here is the list of companies they named as using Uyghur labor,

>In all, ASPI’s research has identified 83 foreign and Chinese companies
directly or indirectly benefiting from the use of Uyghur workers outside
Xinjiang through potentially abusive labour transfer programs as recently as
2019: Abercrombie & Fitch, Acer, Adidas, Alstom, Amazon, Apple, ASUS, BAIC
Motor, BMW, Bombardier, Bosch, BYD, Calvin Klein, Candy, Carter’s, Cerruti
1881, Changan Automobile, Cisco, CRRC, Dell, Electrolux, Fila, Founder Group,
GAC Group (automobiles), Gap, Geely Auto, General Electric, General Motors,
Google, H&M, Haier, Hart Schaffner Marx, Hisense, Hitachi, HP, HTC, Huawei,
iFlyTek, Jack & Jones, Jaguar, Japan Display Inc., L.L.Bean, Lacoste, Land
Rover, Lenovo, LG, Li-Ning, Mayor, Meizu, Mercedes-Benz, MG, Microsoft,
Mitsubishi, Mitsumi, Nike, Nintendo, Nokia, The North Face, Oculus, Oppo,
Panasonic, Polo Ralph Lauren, Puma, Roewe, SAIC Motor, Samsung, SGMW, Sharp,
Siemens, Skechers, Sony, TDK, Tommy Hilfiger, Toshiba, Tsinghua Tongfang,
Uniqlo, Victoria’s Secret, Vivo, Volkswagen, Xiaomi, Zara, Zegna, ZTE. Some
brands are linked with multiple factories.

~~~
anticensor
Very few multinational giants remain if you protest all these.

~~~
josefx
Wasn't the same true for child labor in various industries? Seems like
outlawing slavery doesn't get rid of the slave owners, instead they just move
to the next unprotected group.

~~~
missosoup
Child labor is a tricky one because it's actually viewed as a positive in poor
countries. The alternative isn't 'no child labor', it's other types of child
exploitation like prostitution.

I don't have a reference but there was a follow up report in a poor region
where commercial child labor was abolished, and the outcomes weren't great.

~~~
imtringued
Child labor is often a net negative because children can't go to school. If
employers had to ensure the children go to school then I could see how it
could be a net benefit during the transition period.

------
tomohawk
They are literally selling the body parts of their prisoners.

[https://chinatribunal.com/wp-
content/uploads/2020/02/China-T...](https://chinatribunal.com/wp-
content/uploads/2020/02/China-Tribunal-SHORT-FORM-CONCLUSION_Final.pdf)

[https://chinatribunal.com/final-judgment-
report/](https://chinatribunal.com/final-judgment-report/)

[https://chinatribunal.com/wp-
content/uploads/2020/03/ChinaTr...](https://chinatribunal.com/wp-
content/uploads/2020/03/ChinaTribunal_JUDGMENT_1stMarch_2020.pdf)

EDIT: not sure why this is being downvoted, as this tribunal is well respected
and contains members with experience looking at other atrocities.

[https://chinatribunal.com/who-we-are/](https://chinatribunal.com/who-we-are/)

~~~
gentleman11
Must be the news source is unfamiliar. I’ve seen more familiar news agencies
do stories in this

------
yellow_lead
For a list of Uyghurs that are missing or detained, see
[https://www.shahit.biz/eng/](https://www.shahit.biz/eng/)

Also, if you speak Mandarin or have other related language skills (Turkish,
Russian, Uyghur, etc), there are volunteer positions!

~~~
telesilla
Aside from not purchasing from the listed companies, is there other action
that can be taken in support, from a distance?

~~~
Melting_Harps
> Aside from not purchasing from the listed companies, is there other action
> that can be taken in support, from a distance?

Support the Hong Kong Revolution, they're literately the front line when it
comes to encroachment from the CCP.

If/when they succeed then the notion of 'One China' policy falls in shambles;
Taiwan, Macau and possibly Tibet are all in good strategic positions to rise
up and contest it as well now that China is weakened economically.

~~~
Melting_Harps
Follow up with Documentary from Daily Apple (Jimmy Lai was recently arrested
for his involvement with the protests) this should be a good preface for what
is happening in HK:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=ldRsqmr5sQs&...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=ldRsqmr5sQs&feature=emb_title)

Update: I was wondering when the pro-ccp mainland brigade would show up.

------
gentleman11
We need to stop using the propagandists terms when we describe these things.
It’s not re-education, it’s psychological torture. It’s not forced labor, it’s
slavery

------
whiddershins
I am inclined to believe this is accurate, however I don’t know anything about
the organization producing the report.

Can anyone fill me in in regards to their credibility?

~~~
thisrod
As the name suggests, the "Australian Strategic Policy Institute" is a think
tank for Australia's armed forces. It would save the outright lies for special
occasions like 2003.

On the other hand, it doesn't pretend to take a neutral point of view. The
strategic subtext is to warn Australia's neighbours that "them as makes muslim
slaves of Uigurs, want to make ... oh, hang on, we keep forgetting that you're
muslim as well ... slaves of you." Which warning will be all the more
effective because it's quite possibly true.

~~~
dirtyid
To add, Australia is caught between US and Chinese interest, US for security,
Chinese for trade.

ASPI is nominally aligned with US interests, receives funding from US State
Department and is one of the largest proponents of China threat theory in
Australian foreign policy. I wouldn't say their work is bad per say, but
exceedingly one-sided in narrative. As long as that's understood.

>Former NSW premier Bob Carr has accused it of pumping out a “one-sided, pro-
American view of the world”. Veteran foreign editor Tony Walker has slammed
its "dystopian worldview" which "leaves little room for viewing China as a
potential partner". "It lacks integrity and brings shame to Australia," says
retired former DFAT chief and ex-Qantas CEO John Menadue. “I see it as very
much the architect of the China threat theory in Australia”, adds ex-
ambassador to China turned Beijing-based business consultant Geoff Raby.

>The rhetoric is extreme. And says much about how Australia’s consensus on
China has dissolved.

...

>ASPI's annual reports list alternate funding sources. Sponsors from its most
recent can be divided into three buckets.

>The first is filled with defence contractors such as Lockheed Martin, BAE,
Northrop Grumman, Thales and Raytheon. The second, technology companies like
Microsoft, Oracle Australia, Telstra, and Google. And lastly, there are the
contributions from foreign governments, many being strategic competitors to
China, including the Embassy of Japan and the Taipei Economic and Cultural
Office (that is, Taiwan).

[https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/the-think-tank-
be...](https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/the-think-tank-behind-
australia-s-changing-view-of-china-20200131-p53wgp)

I'm not going to label them as propaganda,they do some good work like
collating data on Chinese firms abroad, but their analysis isn't neutral.
They're certainly not as lolbad as ChinaTribunal and all the Falungong funded
organ harvesting studies that's been spamming the internet since tradewar
started.

------
_bxg1
Remember the last time a major world power practiced ethnic cleansing and we
joined a war over it? Instead of letting our corporations funnel money
_towards_ it?

------
khawkins
Free trade works. It turns out China is just "more efficient" at manufacturing
than the rest of the world.

As the Nobel prize winning economist Milton Friedman loved to argue,
unilateral free trade helps both countries.
([https://fee.org/articles/in-1970-milton-friedman-called-
for-...](https://fee.org/articles/in-1970-milton-friedman-called-for-
unilateral-free-trade-rather-than-retaliation-we-still-haven-t-learned-that-
simple-lesson/))

I'm being sarcastic, but this has been the position of libertarians and both
the center left and right for a long time. Of course, they didn't factor in
the fact that trying to compete with literal slave labor means working class
Americans see their wages stagnate. Further, it guarantees that this slave
labor is very profitable for the Chinese upper class which get to live like
kings, even though their GDP/capita might not be efficient.

For countries like North Korea, Cuba, and Iran, human rights abuses result in
economic isolation and consternation. But for China, their human rights abuses
pay for our cheap stuff so we'll look the other way.

~~~
lopmotr
The good caused by global free trade far outweighs this small issue. If you
don't like globalization, find a strong reason, not a random exception to the
norm of win-win.

~~~
fwipsy
Agreed in general, but just because free trade is mostly win-win doesn't mean
we shouldn't try to improve on it through regulations and such.

------
yorwba
Considering the conclusion that

> _The response to the abuses identified in this report should not involve a
> knee-jerk rejection of Uyghur or Chinese labour. The problem is the policies
> that require Uyghurs to work under duress in violation of well-established
> international labour laws. It is vital that, as these problems are
> addressed, Uyghur labourers are not placed in positions of greater harm or,
> for example, involuntarily transferred back to Xinjiang, where their safety
> cannot necessarily be guaranteed._

I really don't like the parts of this article that don't clearly distinguish
between companies employing Uyghurs, companies using forced labor and
companies treating their employees like shit regardless of ethnicity.

E.g.

> a September 2019 report by New York-based China Labour Watch said contract
> workers at Foxconn’s Zhengzhou factory—which includes Uyghur workers—put in
> at least 100 overtime hours a month.

is not a forced labor problem if their Han workers also work that much. If
that factory decides to implement a policy of not hiring ethnic minorities, as
some do (I've seen job ads explicitly excluding Uyghurs, Mongols, Hui and Yi)
that doesn't solve the underlying problem that the factory is grinding its
workers to the bone.

------
lopmotr
It's funny how this treatment is very bad because they're adults but it's
pretty similar to how normal people treat children everywhere. Perhaps it's
bad because adults are less malleable so they suffer more from being forced
out of their natural ways while children are still learning how to behave so
they tolerate going to school, learning languages, being politically
indoctrinated, being forbidden from performing seances or voodoo revenge
rituals, and being coerced by threats of social exclusion for failing to do
the proper behaviors.

~~~
fwipsy
It's not unreasonable for society to expect both children and adults to work
some of the time. It is unreasonable for both children and adults to be
separated from their loved ones and to be denied personal freedom to move and
pursue their own interests, religion, etc to this degree. Children require
more discipline than adults because they don't always have common sense like
"don't set a fire in your bedroom."

------
lucian1900
That’s the western media narrative.

Consider what the other side is saying too
[https://youtu.be/u4cYE6E27_g](https://youtu.be/u4cYE6E27_g)

~~~
aptidude187
By 'other side' you mean....the CCP: "CGTN is funded in whole or in part by
the Chinese government."

~~~
dntbnmpls
"The Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI) is a non-partisan defence
and strategic policy think tank based in Canberra, Australian Capital
Territory, founded by the Australian government and partly funded by the
Australian Department of Defence."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Strategic_Policy_In...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Strategic_Policy_Institute)

So yes, lets see what both sides have to say. Or neither. You can't defend one
set of propagandists while rejecting another without seeming a bit biased or
agenda-driven.

