
Tech takes over: New York is the sector's second city - caraeisenpress
http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20180226/FEATURES/180229939/new-york-is-the-tech-sectors-official-second-city-and-the-boom-is
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replicatorblog
"official"

FTEs is one way to slice it, but kind of dumb.

Seattle is home to two of the five biggest tech companies in the US.

Boston has had an IPO every year for the last ten years that exceeds any in
NYC history.

LA has had the only 11-digit IPO in the last five years, outside of the bay
area. It's also capturing the zeitgeist in a way that NYC no longer does
(that's subjective, of course, but I'd debate it).

Just by market cap, Sydney's three biggest tech co's would are more impressive
than NYC's.

NYC is an awesome startup city, but the idea that it's the clear #2 is silly.

~~~
whack
All the criteria you chose seem like bad proxies for the things that really
matter. I would count the following as the fundamental metrics that really
count.

\- Average (high-end) programmer salary

\- Amount of VC funding

\- Total number of full-time tech workers

The 1st and 2nd criteria determine how attractive the city is, for employees
and founders respectively.

The 3rd criteria determines how much clustering/network effects the city
enjoys.

On all 3 criteria, NYC is either 1st or 2nd. NYC hedge funds have bid up
programmer salaries to levels that are virtually impossible to get anywhere
else besides SFBA. The data on VC-funding shows NYC as a solid #2, only behind
SFBA. And the linked article shows that in terms of networking potential, NYC
is #2 as well.

[https://www.citylab.com/life/2017/10/venture-capital-
concent...](https://www.citylab.com/life/2017/10/venture-capital-
concentration/539775/)

~~~
JOnAgain
You get paid more gross in NYC than Seattle, but the take-home is less due to
taxes. Cost of living is also approximately double. I did the math last year
-- offer was 5% higher in NYC, but the after-tax and living disposable income
was 50% higher in Seattle.

2/3rd the gross pay in Austin probably gives a significant "raise" in terms of
relative standard of living and maybe 1/4 the money in many parts of Asia
would move you even higher.

All I'm saying is that Average Salary is probably a bad way to compare across
geographies.

~~~
CydeWeys
I'd be curious to see more of those CoL comparisons. How big of a place are
you pricing for NYC, and in which neighborhood? Are you factoring in the
savings from not needing a car?

You can find CoL calculators out there, and they have their faults, but
Seattle is already an expensive city in its own right, and I simply don't see
how you possibly got NYC to come out double. That's way out of line with the
calculators.

~~~
xyhopguy
I've also done this math -- price per sqft is wayy better in Seattle and you
don't necessarily need a car. In any case, a metro card isnt cheap. The cost
of groceries/alcohol is also much much higher in nyc and at a lower quality.

I have a postdoc friend who lives in Seattle on slightly less than I do. They
have a huge 1br in cap Hill with parking next to the subway with a short
committee downtown or to UW. Meanwhile my apartment is the same price with a
minifridge, a 40m commute, and no dishwasher/laundry/disposal.

Plus the PNW is just more enjoyable to explore than the northeast in my
opinion. You definitely can make more in Nyc but the COL and QoL is just awful
compared to the pnw

~~~
vorpalhex
While I agree with your opinions here, those things are also somewhat
personal. I place a lot of value on large housing, cheap car ownership and
easy access to nice outdoor spaces.

A lot of other folks place more value on not needing a car ever, lots of easy
food delivery options, and access to any kind or show or performance you might
ever want to see without having to travel.

~~~
steveklabnik
As someone who moved from LA to SF to Brooklyn, this exactly. There’s a ton of
factors that are very personal. I need a big city; SF is just too small, among
all the other reasons I disliked living there. I’m happy to pay for a place
that has the things I actually prefer. This sentiment, of course, goes both
ways. NYC isn’t for everyone. I don’t want to live in Midtown...

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code4tee
In my experience the NYC tech scene is far more grounded in reality. Far far
less hype, uber for lawn gnomes nonsense and a lot more companies focused on
real solutions and, often, with real customers. Silicon Valley has become,
well, Silicon Valley while NYC is and feels much more like a true business
hub.

Seems to be a lot of B2B stuff that’s driven by the overall diversity of NYC’s
economy, which is far more diverse than SF/SV.

~~~
caraeisenpress
Great point. One quote that didn't make it in was that NYC doesn't have an
"infrastructure of crazy," i.e., there aren't mentors/peers here who might
tell a founder not to take a risk, not to take that offer from Google for $30
billion...

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CodeSheikh
I am not surprised to read this and also not sure what makes this
article/publisher the assumed authority to christened NYC as #2. After Silicon
Valley one might argue that Seattle has better tech than NYC but again NYC
always has breadth and depth of diverse markets such finance, fashion, ads,
hotel, food, law and education to name a few. Not to mention, easy access to
EWR/JFK/LGA airports from European continent makes it easier for people to
come here and get involved.

Updated: Improved verbosity

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Seattle has better connections to Asia, given the way planes travel it is
closer to Beijing, Tokyo, Seoul than any other major American city besides
anchorage.

~~~
erubin
Unlike Anchorage you can actually fly to those places straight from Seattle as
a commercial passenger.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Yep, you can only fly direct from Anchorage if you go in a box :).

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cddotdotslash
The best part about tech in NYC is that it isn't a non-stop, in-your-face
bubble the way that it is in SF/SJ. I work in tech but enjoy having friends in
fashion, finance, real estate, advertising, etc. The conversations here are
much more diverse. Interestingly, that same diversity helps improve the tech
sector.

~~~
giantsloth
I find statements like this both cringe and problematic. The heavy emphasis on
industry defined identity is creepy, extremely impersonal, and backwards.

I've been a software developer in advertising, various startups and have
friends in fashion and finance. While sure you can get some interesting
insights into their industries, for example Gucci's new operating room spread
is dope af, or the fact that hedge funds year over year make 20% on average
using their "genius quants" (aka insider trading), I find that the actual
people themselves are a relatively homogenous subculture across industries.
That is a typically upper middle class white with a BS/BA in
econ/finance/cs/communications who got "really drunk" in college, "loves" IPAs
now and does sober February's as a challenge.

These are all various shades of yuppie identity non-diverse in thought,
culture, or world perspective. They are boring.

~~~
stcredzero
_> > The best part about tech in NYC is that it isn't a non-stop, in-your-face
bubble the way that it is in SF/SJ_

 _> I find statements like this both cringe and problematic._

I think the 1st sentence of the 1st comment is amusingly and inadvertently
supported by the 2nd.

 _These are all various shades of yuppie identity non-diverse in thought,
culture, or world perspective. They are boring._

You're painting with a pretty broad brush there, yourself.

The diversity of thought and culture in the NYC area is breathtaking. It takes
a lot of effort to navigate it at times, but it's definitely there. Hundreds
of years worth. It used to be that the North East of the US kinda _was_ the
US. Half of the soldiers who went to fight in Europe in WWI were from New York
state alone.

A big part of US history of the 20th century has been the demographic,
economic, and cultural shift away from the North East to the West and South.
As a part of this, it's only natural that a new intelligentsia would arise on
the West Coast and pooh-pooh the North East. It's a very common historical
pattern. However, when it comes down to it, people living, thinking, and
working in close proximity will create cultural value. To denigrate this is to
throw out the baby with the bathwater if you are a humanist, or a progressive.

~~~
byproxy
I've always thought the stereotype was that of the metropolitan North East
pooh-pooh-ing the West, e.g. :
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MaCXa3ZSH8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MaCXa3ZSH8)

~~~
stcredzero
_the metropolitan North East pooh-pooh-ing the West_

That's the other side of the historical pattern. It also happened between
Europe and the "New World."

My Louisiana Creole girlfriend (at the time) and I showed up for a concert
with Joanna Newsom and Phillip Glass. Let me assure you that there are older
West Coast elites who can wonder aloud about you and look down their nose at
you just as much as Mainline and old New England preppies. (Basically the fans
of Phillip Glass wondering about the Joanna Newsom fandom _hoi polloi_.)

------
jdlyga
Cheaper rent than Silicon Valley, tons of cultural diversity, and amazing
food. Really nice place to live.

~~~
jimmy1
High stress, high pollution, rat race of a lifestyle, you are regulated and
taxed on more things you even thought possible, and one of the worst
imaginable places to try and raise a family. It has it's pros and cons, but I
think we both agree it is certainly better than Silicon Valley. It's great if
you are a young professional figuring out the world, but eventually people
want their space and be able to stretch out their legs.

~~~
hullo
I am a tech worker raising my family in Brooklyn and it's quite lovely.
Expensive, yes, but lovely. Whether you find it a "rat race" of a lifestyle or
not is much more dependent on your internal psychology than the city itself.

~~~
jimmy1
I have heard Brooklyn is gentrifying at a rapid pace, but back when I was
there, Brooklyn just wasn't an option.

~~~
nerfhammer
Do you have any idea how big Brooklyn is?

~~~
jimmy1
Since this comment is attempting to be pedantic, I'll give you a pedantic
answer: Yes I have access to google maps just like the rest of the world.

Serious answer: Yes, the _landmass that constitutes Brooklyn is large_. The
landscape of the main neighborhoods that have gentrified over the years are
not so big. If you actually live there you know which parts I am talking
about.

~~~
ng12
> The landscape of the main neighborhoods that have gentrified over the years
> are not so big

What are you talking about? By area, Brooklyn is more gentrified than not-
gentrified.

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tabeth
I'm sure NYC is doing quite well, but a New York based website is saying NYC
is doing great without any context or even a reporting of the full list? You
could write the same article about Boston, Denver, Austin, etc.

~~~
Finnucane
In absolute numbers, New York would be at or near the top of the list just out
of sheer size. New York has a lot of people doing IT work because it's a huge
city and every business needs some IT to a greater or lesser degree.

------
load_balancer
I really want to move to NYC. As a full stack developer in SF I only get
interest from companies in the Bay Area. All my NYC applications get no
response even if it's the same resume with locations removed. Am I missing
something? Can someone who has mde a similar move cue me in?

I have 4 years of full stack experience. Do people tailor their resume for NYC
companies?

~~~
cmonfeat
As someone who has been on both sides of the table (an employee living outside
of NYC and looking to move and a hiring manager in NYC who has received
applications from remote candidates), it's way easier to get hired if you live
in the area.

There are a few reasons for this (smaller companies don't want to risk flying
you in and it not working out, longer interview process, recruiters limiting
searches to a geographic area), but my advice would be to just take the plunge
and move here without a gig. My partner and I made the jump that way many
years ago and had new jobs within weeks. I don't think we're special, it's
just a testament to how valuable tech sector is in NYC at the moment and how
limited the talent pool really is.

You have a very employable set of skills and the market in NYC is great at the
moment, so this is a low risk move.

~~~
taurath
One would think if the talent pool were limited they’d be more responsive to
those outside the area

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acconrad
What is Boston doing wrong? In the 80s thanks to the 128 Tech Row, it was on
par with Silicon Valley as the top spot, then it lost ground and now NYC is
considered #2? We have the highest concentration of collegiate tech talent,
the same weather as NYC (obviously worse than SV), lower cost of living than
both cities, and there's been a ton of investment in real estate for tech
companies in the Seaport District. Too little, too late, perhaps?

~~~
prophetjohn
I know it's a minor point, but Boston absolutely does not have the same
weather as NYC. The winters are so much worse in Boston.

I'm a current NYC-er finding NYC too expensive to raise my family and the
winter there is the only thing pulling me away from Boston, which is otherwise
quite attractive.

~~~
cimmanom
Yeah, the weather this past holiday season, for instance, was a once-a-decade
sort of event and 20-40 degrees colder than usual. Our compatriots in Boston
were laughing at us, saying "that's just another Tuesday up here".

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gumby
Is a retail business really a tech business?

The article says, "tech companies -- defined as those whose principal business
is tech and its applications" but then their examples are companies that are
largely shops. There's nothing wrong with shops(!!) but these people aren't
developing any technology, and aren't really taking advantage of new
technology any more tahn (and probably less than) Target, Wal-mart or
McDonald's. Perhaps a better way to put it is we call UAL, AA, etc "airlines"
rather than "aircraft companies". We don't call comcast, or sprint "tech"
companies even though they have a _lot_ of engineers on their staff.

In one sense, who cares? If these companies are successful and good for their
customers, employees and investors that's great.

(of course to me Cummins engines and 3M are pretty high tech businesses too,
even if little computation or electronics is discussed by them).

But I am quite interested in _tech_ businesses and products, and this all
seems a bit weird.

------
p-funk
I'm sorry if this is off topic, but I'm just looking for some advice I guess.
I'm currently an electronics engineer in NY and I've been trying to switch to
something in software for about a year now because there are essentially no
electronics jobs here in my field. I've had a hard time convincing employers
how my electronics experience is relevant or how well it would translate to a
software role, because, basically, no one knows what electrical engineers
actually do, much less how similar it is to software engineering. How do I
convince people that I'd be a good hire, despite not having "production"
software experience apart from a few embedded projects? I know for certain I
can do the work, I just don't know how to prove that to someone doing the
hiring.

~~~
mden
Some companies in NY hire for software engineering without requiring a comp-
sci degree. Used to work at Bloomberg and a lot of the people there were hired
without a classical programming background but still with some programming
experience even if not professional; a lot of physics, biology, and
mathematics people for example. Then they put them through a 4 month internal
coding course teaching them C++, JS, git, etc. and a lot become surprisingly
competent. And then they go to Google once they are all trained up :)

Edit: point being is that there a number of companies that don't look only for
traditional hires. Networking (via Meetup for example) helps. Also going
through a recruiter or (Recurse if you have the time!) is also helpful.

~~~
lallysingh
For a Bloomberg job you can probably just show up at a nearby bar on a
Thursday and be social through the 10pm black hole.

Try to avoid challenges for feats of strength.

------
randomsearch
General comment - it’s unlikely tech will come to dominate NYC, and therefore
it’s a healthy place to start if you want to avoid a monoculture.

Is housing cost a problem though?

------
corbinpage
Crypto will be a leading force in NYC's tech growth over the next 5-10 years.

------
caiob
> On Wall Street, new computer engineers get hired at $120,000, but senior
> managers can make $400,000 plus the bonuses Wall Street hands out every
> winter

This always bums me out. Why do managers make so much more money than
engineers?

~~~
yanslookup
A group of 5 engineers, left to their own devices, would probably produce
about $100k worth of value. An effective manager can extract two million
dollars worth of value out of those same 5 engineers.

If you don't believe this, you may have never had a great manager.

~~~
adrr
Could say the same thing about athletes and coaches but who makes more in pro
sports?

~~~
yanslookup
Athletes collectively bargain. Either way, coaching still matters in sports.

~~~
geebee
Of course coaching matters! The point, I believe, is that the relationship
between management and creative can be mutually beneficial, with both parties
earning considerably more through a partnership than they would on their own.

The fact that developers become much more valuable with a good manager
doesn't, in itself, explain why managers are paid more.

For example, let's say a manager without a good developer would be worth 100k
of value a year, and a developer without a good manager would produce 100k,
but working together, they produce 500k. There is now a surplus.

Now, if it's easy to be a developer and very difficult to be a manager, then
it would make sense that the manager would capture most of the surplus,
because he or she could always just go and find a new talented developer to
work with. The Rolling Stones can find a new manager more easily than a
manager can find a new Rolling Stones.

However, ahem, it seems to be the managers constantly bemoaning the difficulty
of hiring good developers. Share a bit more of that surplus, and you may find
those hiring woes aren't quite so woeful?

