
2018 was a terrible year for Swiss glaciers - Pharmakon
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/european-glaciers-have-been-coming-and-going-for-tens-of-thousands-of-years-now-theyre-just-going
======
rv-de
> Huss says glaciers are essential to feeding Europe’s freshwater rivers,
> which provide drinking water to millions, especially in the summer months
> when there is less rainfall. “The summer is when we need the water in the
> lowlands.” he says, “If the glaciers are gone, this can have really serious
> consequences.”

The Rhine [1] is currently carrying so little water [2] that tankers can't
transport normal payloads and fewer ships can travel along the river due to a
very low water level. This created a situation where gas stations are empty
[3] due to those logistical impairments. I wonder how exactly this might be
connected to glaciers leaving.

The news are mostly covering this inconvenience from a consumer service
perspective instead of linking it to climate change symptoms. It is also a
good reminder for how suddenly and seemingly out of nowhere the situation can
go from normal to chaos. Most people cannot imagine anything except normality
(you need food? you go to a shop. you are ill? you visit the doctor. you are
victim of a crime? you call the police.). Civilized normality seems rather
like a very thin layer concealing the raw forces of a brutal nature.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine)

[2]: [https://www.aachener-nachrichten.de/nrw-
region/wasserstand-i...](https://www.aachener-nachrichten.de/nrw-
region/wasserstand-im-rhein-an-einigen-stellen-so-niedrig-wie-nie-
gemessen_aid-33688667)

[3]: [https://www.waz.de/region/niederrhein/wegen-ebbe-im-rhein-
ke...](https://www.waz.de/region/niederrhein/wegen-ebbe-im-rhein-kein-sprit-
an-duisburger-tankstellen-id215725667.html)

~~~
misja111
The current low water level in the Rhine has nothing to do with the glaciers,
the lack of water is caused by the unusually dry last couple of months.

The global warming is actually making the glaciers melt more rapidly and
increasing the Rhine level a bit, but at the end of the year the water level
is mostly determined by rain fall.

~~~
rv-de
Indeed. The relationship is probably indirect. Warming causing receding of
glaciers and also lowering water levels (stronger than than positive impact on
it by melting glaciers).

I thought though that _maybe_ melting of glaciers might reduce the sealing of
water basins (lakes) serving as a source for the Rhine. Causing the water to
seep into the lake bed.

------
tpfour
> Huss says glaciers are essential to feeding Europe’s freshwater rivers,
> which provide drinking water to millions, especially in the summer months
> when there is less rainfall. “The summer is when we need the water in the
> lowlands.” he says, “If the glaciers are gone, this can have really serious
> consequences.”

What to do? Once actually "solving" the problem becomes a critical political
issue, will there be anything left to "solve"?

~~~
nradov
Dams and reservoirs. They'll have to capture more precipitation and store it
in liquid rather than solid form. Obviously that will have environmental
consequences as well.

~~~
morsch
Incidentally, the reservoirs that help ensure water supply in case of low
rainfall here in parts of Germany are down to less than 50% of maximum and
falling. It has been a very dry year here. The Rhine is low enough to have a
dramatic impact on shipping.

~~~
Cthulhu_
Same in Netherlands; I now wonder if our drainage and flooding prevention
(from e.g. the Rhine) was too good.

------
MordodeMaru
The Chilling Extinction of Spain's Last Glacier, south of the Pyrinees things
look really, really bad:

[https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/10/24/inenglish/1540379684_70...](https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/10/24/inenglish/1540379684_709673.html)

------
username223
It's hard to imagine just how fast the Alps' glaciers are shrinking. This is
near Chamonix: [http://www.drdirtbag.com/2018/07/11/aiguille-verte-moine-
rid...](http://www.drdirtbag.com/2018/07/11/aiguille-verte-moine-ridge-
ad-13h35/aiguille-verte-21-of-21/)

~~~
saiya-jin
I don't expect this glacier to be visible anymore from Montenvers train
station/lookout during our lifetimes. The glacier in the visible part is
almost flat, meaning even 5km up the valley its still below 2000m altitude -
that's becoming a death zone for glaciers.

Really, if anybody is into mountains and admiring those alpine terrains, enjoy
them now while you can. In maybe 30 years, the only place to admire them in
Chamonix area will be from Aiguille du Midi, sitting 3800m high on top of a
rocky needle.

I expect other high-altitude european easy-to-reach places like Zermatt and
Eiger will be in same or even worse state due to nature of the terrain there.

~~~
username223
Yeah, the ladders between glaciers and huts in the Bernese Alps are grim. The
Oberaletsch Glacier is toast, and several of the others are looking pretty
bad. See it while you can, and take pictures to show your kids.

------
muro
Interesting also because 2018 had an unusually long winter and likely more
snow than usual. I would have expected it to be the year when glaciers would
get bigger for a change.

~~~
Kurtose
As a long distance ice skater I know that snow has a detrimental effect on ice
growth due to its insulating effect.

Moreover the spring and summer of 2018 were warm [1] and sunny [2] in Europe.
The comparison picture in the article of this tiny glacier after a cold [3]
and cloudy [4] spring and summer of 2006 is not a solid basis for drawing
conclusions.

[1] [https://www.meteoschweiz.admin.ch/product/output/climate-
dat...](https://www.meteoschweiz.admin.ch/product/output/climate-data/monthly-
annual-maps-processing/temp/anom/2018/temp_anom_2018_08.pdf)

[2] [https://www.meteoschweiz.admin.ch/product/output/climate-
dat...](https://www.meteoschweiz.admin.ch/product/output/climate-data/monthly-
annual-maps-processing/sun/anom/2018/sun_anom_2018_08.pdf)

[3] [https://www.meteoschweiz.admin.ch/product/output/climate-
dat...](https://www.meteoschweiz.admin.ch/product/output/climate-data/monthly-
annual-maps-processing/temp/anom/2006/temp_anom_2006_08.pdf)

[4] [https://www.meteoschweiz.admin.ch/product/output/climate-
dat...](https://www.meteoschweiz.admin.ch/product/output/climate-data/monthly-
annual-maps-processing/sun/anom/2006/sun_anom_2006_08.pdf)

~~~
rmu09
Ice growth on a glacier is what remains of snow over one year. I don't know
proper english jargon, but glaciers usually accumulate snow from around
october to june. June to october is the melting period.

Obvious: glacier growing means it accumulates more snow (that will slowly
convert into solid ice) than is melting in the summer.

~~~
saiya-jin
Exactly, there is no magic - all the ice is just snowfall compressed over
time, by its own weight and melting/refreeze cycles.

This autumn has been really great for outdoors but disastrous to glaciers -
extremely warm till end of october, no precipitation at all for more than a
month.

------
donum
Has anybody watched the animation[1]?

For me it looks like the overall amount of ice in the alps shrank a lot 10.000
years ago. Since then it remained relatively constant with the last 50 years
giving it the final straw.

[1]: [https://vimeo.com/294517816](https://vimeo.com/294517816)

------
point78
Overpopulation

~~~
village-idiot
No, global warming.

~~~
gameswithgo
one has a strong effect on the other.

~~~
crispinb
Only one is quickly remediable via policy though.

Reducing global population may happen, but it would take multiple generations,
so is hardly relevant to short-medium term climate change policy. Reducing
emissions however is practicable over the timespans relevant to climate
change.

Usually when people say 'overpopulation' they mean the irrational counter-
emphasis, ie. " _they_ should stop having babies, so _we_ can keep driving
vast CO2-spewing SUVs, eating scads of industrially-produced meat, and
generally fouling our rapidly decaying nest".

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _Only one is quickly remediable via policy though._

And it's not the one you think.

Starting a global nuclear war is easier than coordinating the world to fight
climate change.

~~~
seszett
What makes you say that?

Multiple wars have taken place in the 60 years or so since global nuclear war
has become possible. Most of those wars have involved at least one, sometimes
several of the great nuclear powers, including as (somewhat indirect)
opponents.

Nuclear war doesn't seem to break out that easily.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I admit it was a lazy snark, but 'crispinb understood it correctly. Nuclear
war is easy to start, because one nation can unilaterally decide it. The world
has also been through Cold War, when a nuclear exchange seemed like a strong
attractor that we barely managed to break free of. The stories of that era are
about how effort and luck helped us _not_ nuke ourselves.

But my point here can be extended to non-nuclear wars, population-elimination
strategies (genocide) and extreme population control (sterilization, one-
child-max-or-else). They're all adversarial, and this is something that comes
easy to humans. Whereas implementing policies to help deal with climate
require _coordination_ at scale, which is something we particularly suck at.

~~~
crispinb
> implementing policies to help deal with climate require coordination at
> scale, which is something we particularly suck at.

Yes, quite. We're primates with a impressive cognitive, linguistic & cultural
abilities, but there's nothing in our makeup or history to offer much
confidence that we are capable of making hard collective decisions on a
planetary scale. The naked ape may have hit its limits.

