
What it’s like to die - joshbuckley
http://sashmackinnon.com/what-its-like-to-die
======
danshapiro
Recently took a CPR class in Seattle. Not for any particular reason, just
because it seemed like a handy skill to pick up for two hours time invested. I
learned a few interesting bits of trivia.

\--Seattle has the highest survival rate for heart stop events in the world at
56%. That's because of pioneering advances in EMT training, broad availability
of AEDs, high percentage of people trained, etc.

\--When I asked for a point of comparison, he said Detroit was 4%.

\--AEDs don't actually bring you back to consciousness. They just make CPR
more effective. (much more!)

\--Bad CPR is much better than no CPR. So much so that high end AEDs will
actually teach you CPR with voice prompts, since it's better than sitting
there. Some 911 operators will coach you through it as well. Even if your CPR
is rusty, it's worth trying.

\--Modern CPR (for adults) no longer includes rescue breaths. Mouth-to-mouth
was too much of a turnoff, and chest compressions alone are very effective
given the response times of ambulances.

\--And most importantly - $40 and two hours can save a life! You can set
yourself up here:
[http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/CPRAndECC/CPR_UCM_001118_SubHo...](http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/CPRAndECC/CPR_UCM_001118_SubHomePage.jsp)

~~~
danielweber
I heard somewhere that plain old CPR was very unlikely to help. Still probably
better than nothing if someone is there with their heart not beating. Does
this go along with your stats?

 _EDIT_ : By sheer coincidence I found my stat about CPR while commenting on
another thread. [http://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/2011/11/30/how-doctors-
die...](http://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/2011/11/30/how-doctors-
die/ideas/nexus/)

~~~
danshapiro
Plain old CPR by itself, with no ambulance on the way, is very unlikely to
help. (That was another interesting tidbit - people almost never "wake up"
while CPR is being administered).

Ambulance + plain old CPR, however, is much more effective than Ambulance +
yelling "ITS GOING TO BE OK!" or playing Angry Birds or whatever. I don't
remember the stats on effectiveness of performing CPR while waiting for the
ambulance vs. not, but they were persuasive.

~~~
Cushman
This also means that if you are in, say, a wilderness survival situation where
help is not coming, CPR will not save a life, but it is still recommended that
you perform it-- the emotional impact of just watching somebody die will be
dangerous to the survivors.

~~~
vacri
A 2% chance of recovery is better than a 0.01% chance of recovery anyway.

~~~
XorNot
My parents are GPs. They somewhat recently had an old man have a heartattack
in their waiting room, and basically had to give him CPR + rescue breaths (via
one of those squeeze bottle ventilators) for about 10 minutes before the
ambulance arrived.

The hell of it was, it did work. The guy kept waking up from it while they
were doing it, being very grumpy that people were pressing on his chest, and
the moment they stopped he'd go unconscious again. Continued through the
normal CPR and the ambulance's CPR apparently.

Unfortunately in the end he didn't make it (heart just would not restart
fully).

------
steven2012
Somewhat related, but I remember watching MC Hammer on Oprah. Oprah was
interviewing him about his bankruptcy, fall from grace, etc, and at one point,
he said something to the effect of "Please, I don't want anyone to feel any
sympathy towards me. Even after losing everything, my worst day is better than
most people's best days. I'm still blessed."

It's really easy, especially in Silicon Valley, to fall into the "Poor Little
Rich Boy" syndrome as well. I'm currently trying to buy a >$1M house in the
Bay Area (very common), and have gotten outbid by $100k+ time and time again.
One of my friends said "I heard you're having problems trying to get a house."
My response, thinking exactly of that MC Hammer interview, was "Not having
money to afford a place is a problem. Being in the position to be outbid on
$1M houses is a really lucky."

I guess after reading the author's post, we in this industry should really
feel blessed and know we're living a life that most people on this planet
would think is a dream. It really puts things in perspective, and we hopefully
shouldn't need a life-threatening event to come to this realization.

~~~
hello_newman
Totally agree. So many people would kill to be in the positions some of us are
in to pursue opportunities, chase our dreams, and be able to participate in
the current zeitgeist and contribute to the world.

If you can do that, you're already a success in my book.

------
jemfinch
I'm (only a little bit) sorry to be so pedantic, but I've grown weary of this
modern misuse of death for hyperbolic effect.

You didn't die. You weren't dead and you aren't now resurrected. You
experienced a very serious medical event, and you _almost died_ , but didn't.
Even metaphorically, you didn't die: you're still around. Robert Pirsig can
claim that Phaedrus died; you cannot, because _you're still here_.

I don't know why this small untruth bothers me so, but it really does.

~~~
rosser
While I get the point you're trying to make, and even somewhat agree with it,
there are two definitions of "death" in play. The problem isn't hyperbole;
it's simply one of equivocating between them.

There's _clinical_ death, which the author of TFA very likely did experience.
If VF continues for anything longer than a few seconds, asystole frequently
occurs. Among other things, asystole is _definitive_ of "clinical death."

On the other hand, there's _death_ death. This is the one where we bury you
and mourn you and so-on.

Yes, they're very much not the same thing. Yes, the author is probably
equivocating between them, at least a little. But no, his describing what he
experienced as "death" is not hyperbolic — at least not according to the
clinical definition.

~~~
nova
This is the real, real, real death:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information-theoretic_death>

The other "deaths" are just technical shortcomings due to lack of research.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
Commenting so that when the research is done, I can tease you about how you
won't be privileged enough to die.

------
JohnBooty

      "If there is one lesson I took away from the experience it
      is not to “live life to the fullest” or “have no regrets”.    
      It is to feel lucky. Feeling lucky means you are
      appreciating the things in your life that sometimes go
      unnoticed. It means you are achieving more than think 
      you deserve. Feeling lucky requires a certain humility 
      we often lose sight of."
    

I came somewhat close to death due to something that happened with my heart
once. Probably not as close as the author of the article, but definitely close
enough to make one re-examine a few things.

For me, in addition to feeling lucky and grateful, I'm kind of embarrassed to
admit that it made me much less patient when dealing with unnecessary
unpleasantries.

It's hard not to shout, "Really? I have to fill out this ridiculous form and
then call so-and-so? Do you guys even KNOW how insanely short and fragile life
is, and we're wasting it here talking about this ridiculous thing?"

I deal with the _necessary_ unpleasantries a little better now than I did
before. When one of the pets makes a mess on the floor, I can't say I really
enjoy cleaning it up now - but I still have to think about how wonderful and
lucky it is that the pet and I are both here.

------
mcmatterson
I lost my dad last week to this exact same event. My parents live in the
country, and my elderly mother didn't have the training (or lack of panic) to
attempt CPR. Although members of the local volunteer fire department were on
site within 7 minutes with an AED, I'm actually quite comforted in the
knowledge that there never really was any hope for him. One of the few nice
things about vfib is that it's quick and painless, and the grim survival
statistics mean that there wasn't really anything that could have been done
differently in my dad's case.

~~~
davidw
Sorry to hear that:-(

------
gyom
The most interesting part of that post ties with something that Richard
Dawkins likes to remind us :

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never
going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who
could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of
day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia."

~~~
brokenparser
I think it's a religious belief to think splooge has lots of tiny people in it
(and therefore one should refrain from pleasing oneself), but it's really just
unicellular organisms (which I think may outnumber all the grains of sand on
Earth).

~~~
gyom
He wasn't talking about homunculus, if that's what you mean, but I didn't
imagine there could be confusion about what he meant.

It's basically like thinking about the kids that could have had if you had
descendants with person A instead of person B. There's nobody around to be
disappointed for not being born, but those who got be alive are "lucky" in a
certain sense of the word.

------
abecedarius
_The paramedics arrived and walked slowly down the length of the pool to the
gym. This was procedure, they later told me, they didn't want to run and cause
alarm._

That shocks me a little.

~~~
abredow
We talked about this in a CPR class once. The biggest reason paramedics don't
run is to avoid injury, which would obviously impede their ability to help.

~~~
hnriot
What has happened to humans??? millions of years evolving to a truly
miraculous level of efficiency and agility and we still don't think that
possibly moving a little quickly to someone who's heart has stopped is a good
idea? Since there were paramedics (plural) it wouldn't impede anything if they
ran, and it would most certainly increase the chances of saving someone.

To me this is disgraceful, it sounds like OSHA got involved and made policy
something that must surely be counter intuitive. Yes, I know the statistics of
small risk- done often, but this is such a sad condition for our special to
have reached when people carrying life saving equipment don't move a little
faster to save someone.

~~~
scott_s
I was going to argue the point, but I'll just point here:
[http://phillydan.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/good-emts-dont-
run...](http://phillydan.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/good-emts-dont-run/)

~~~
adamzerner
This was probably the best point made against running, but still...

Our professional emergency response people should be capable of
hustling/running over to the people that need their help while maintaining
their composure and ability to think.

It is true that exertion causes a sympathetic response, but hustling/running
over to someone doesn't produce such a significant sympathetic response where
people can't think straight. I know that it's inherently a stressful
situation, but our professionals should be able to handle that, and the
additional stress of hustling/running over is negligible.

~~~
vacri
A professional attitude and good training doesn't counter basic biological
processes. What do you gain from running? A few seconds, some of which you'll
have to use up recovering from the run, and _irrelevant_ bystanders thinking
you're 'doing your job'. What do you lose by running? A lot - as described in
the link, which has an excellent run-down.

------
hello_newman
Svbtle never ceases to amaze me when I read an article. This was another
example of a great article.

I think the author brings up a fabulous point; be grateful for everything you
have.

It is so easy to get caught up in our lives and to envy others who have the
newest this or the latest that. But to truly be grateful for what you have,
material or otherwise, family, friends, doing things you love etc is so
important.

We often don't realize how lucky we are to just be alive, in good health,
surrounded by people who love us. As long as you have that, you are in my
opinion among the few lucky people on earth.

Kudos on a great article.

------
kayoone
Wow, if that would have happened to me, i dont think i could ever do serious
workout anymore. Are you allowed to still do sports without any risks ? After
all suffering sudden cardiac arrest is extremely rare, but in most cases there
is some underlying condition which can cause it in very rare cases, like an
unnormal sized heart.

I am 30 years old and generally pretty fit, but 2 months ago i fainted early
in the morning. I was a bit sick, did work out the day before, had a really
bad sleep with alot of sweating and felt totally devastated in the morning.
Still (for whatever reason) i didnt drink anything and took my girlfriend to
work and on the way back i was feeling extremely uncomfortable, got out of the
car and blacked out. I woke up seconds later realizing i had fallen onto the
street and had blasting back pains... Something like this happening was a
total shock to me, i never had problems in this regard. Went to the hospital
and a cardiologist and got everything checked and they said that all is
totally fine, it was most probably a combination of dehydration+sickness+bad
sleep etc.

But still, in the weeks after it i felt some strange anxiety and checked my
pulse alot, which i have never done before. I am still nervous when working
out even if i havent had any problems since then, but it still makes me feel
uneasy for some reason.

Given that, if i would have suffered the same fate as this guy, i am sure i
would have some serious anxiety issues.

Good story mate, inspiring that you are so uninspired by it!

------
achivetta
Go watch this video:
[http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/CPRAndECC/HandsOnlyCPR/Hands-O...](http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/CPRAndECC/HandsOnlyCPR/Hands-
Only-CPR_UCM_440559_SubHomePage.jsp)

That's all you need to know as a lay-rescuer. And if you forget, the 911
operator will walk you through it.

( Or, if you'd rather: <http://supersexycpr.com> )

------
j_s
Discussion of Dustin Curtis's perspective on this event:
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4740540>

A good reminder to make sure you have an Automated External Defibrilla​tor
(AED) nearby. (Make sure your company has one!)

<http://gregaed.org/aed-basics/>

~~~
vxNsr
I was under the impression that in most states it's required in a gym...

------
graue
This reminds me a bit of Mary Rose Cook's story, "When I died":
<http://maryrosecook.com/post/when-i-died-2>

------
anigbrowl
This would have been just as interesting and clickworthy with a title like 'I
had a massive heart attack at 21.' As it is, the story has nothing to do with
the title _at all_.

------
csomar
The author experienced Clinical Death[1] and not permanent death. However,
it's interesting now that we are close to singularity, death may be no longer
_death_.

What does it mean to die if I upload your brain and make another process of
yourself? Is death related to the body or losing consciousness?

Finally, dying is like sleeping. You are not _around_ when you are dead. The
author certainly got a _shock_ from the things that happened to him and the
thoughts of not existing any more and not experiencing death per se.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death>

~~~
krapp
_What does it mean to die if I upload your brain and make another process of
yourself? Is death related to the body or losing consciousness?_

Assuming that something we will retroactively refer to as singlulary ever
occurs, and that we are close to singluarity, and that it ever takes a form
which leads to some kind of ubiquitous 'upload' of a brain model that somehow
acts and reacts as a brain in a skull in meatspace would (and all of these
qualifiers are debatable,) _you still die._

In the future the notion of what it means to be alive, and human, and dead,
may be reinterpreted so that these models are considered to be, essentially,
the same being as their original. But this redefinition would be semantics.
Nothing frees you from the absolute and irrevocable nature of your death, in
this or any other universe, ever. The post-singularity upload is still a copy,
however good, and at this point the analogy of copying minds as software
breaks down, because the mind isn't separate from the brain, and whether or
not there's an entity on the wires which believes itself to be you, _you_ are
still no less dead.

~~~
anonymous
> you are still no less dead

Well, therein lies the rub.

Q: What is "you"? What does it mean to be self-aware? What is the "self"? Are
we each a separate self-aware entity? Are we all just reincarnations of the
same conciousness? If you build a sufficiently advanced simulation of a brain,
will it be self-aware? Can you be reincarnated as a machine? Can we link two
brains together in a way that results in a single conciousness? Do people who
have had their left and right hemispheres separated have two "souls" now? If
the universe ends in heat death and some spontaneous fluctuation causes a true
vacuum to appear, inside of which a completely new universe is born, in which
thinking beings emerge, can you be reincarnated as one of them? Do things ever
end?

A: Buggered if I know. (for now)

~~~
Xcelerate
It's a question that's plagued the greatest philosophers of mankind for
centuries (but you'll no doubt hear many matter-of-fact replies on here).

------
ChuckMcM
I can certainly vouch for the suggestion that being grateful for the things
you have (feeling lucky) is also a key component in my personal happiness
quotient.

------
jeromeparadis
A more appropriate title would have been "What it's like to wake up after
dying". Glad he's feeling great.

He's mainly lucky someone who know CPR was around soon after his cardiac
failure. That's the main reason why he defied statistics and it stacked odds
in his favor. Otherwise, more than 4 minutes before intervention and you're
almost guaranteed to be dead or at least brain damaged.

------
squozzer
I have a bit of a cruel streak, but I always joke about pretending the flames
of hell are licking my soul as I die and scaring the bejeezus out of anyone
who might be in earshot of my passing.

------
dzuc
What exactly are the risk factors that lead up to this type of event?

~~~
Alex3917
At age 21, prescription amphetamines are probably the biggest risk factor.

~~~
Daniel_Newby
Prescription stimulants are remarkably safe in sensible doses—they make the
heart beat faster but do little to destabilize it.

The stimulant risk comes from cocaine, which directly interferes with
electricity by jamming sodium channels shut.

~~~
Alex3917
They're relatively safe for any given individual, but overall they're still a
huge factor in sudden cardiac arrest at this age.

~~~
Daniel_Newby
A few minutes with PubMed turns up no causal relationship. One study did find
a sudden cardiac death odds ratio of ~2, but the dose response curve was flat
suggesting lack of causality.

------
rdl
What state is this where a gym didn't have an AED? Also, where paramedics
arrive onsite in 4.5 minutes. The intersection of those two states is a very
small set.

------
kayoone
Freaking scary, makes one think twice to work out alone at home or going for a
run in the woods alone...

------
sukuriant
Just don't take your luck for granted... it's about that time that it's
stripped out from you.

------
davycro
the iphone app pulsepoint is worth mentioning here. its designed to alert
people with cpr training when a cardiac arrest occurs near them. if more
people use this app them more people should survive this type of accident

------
Tenoke
>For me, it took losing everything to remember how lucky I am.

So he did have an epiphany.

------
jcfrei
wow, this is must be the first and only one of those cheesy stories that I can
actually relate to. thanks.

------
louvicious
Very insightful, great post.

------
spoiler
Reading all the comments here is giving me a throbbing, phantom pain in my
chest. D:

------
snambi
nice story

------
martinced
_"Of those that do survive, more than half of them have brain damage."_

I've read a theory that if as soon as someone as heart attack you put ice on
his head you lower the risk of permanent brain damage. If I'm not mistaken
there's been a doctor / hospital / ambulances allowing to test this theory in
the U.S. (don't remember which one) and they had apparently statistically
significant better results when ambulancers did immediately put the head in
ice.

Our brain is one heck of a CPU and when the blood doesn't cool it it starts
melting fast apparently : (

Lowering temp to 32 deg certainly helped but apparently every second counts:
the faster you put the head in ice, the lower the brain damage. So while
someone is trying to do CPR, someone else should go fetch lots of ice.

Interesting "feeling lucky to have a great life that I just want to continue
to live".

Welcome back!

~~~
ams6110
That would be 32 C I guess... certainly they didn't _freeze_ him...

------
funthree
Death is permanent; you didn't die.

