
Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home - vezycash
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50048144
======
saluki
I was a huge Google Fan but this is becoming lunacy.

I understood trading some data and privacy for great search results, maps and
free quality email.

But people willingly bringing always on listening devices in to their homes
(beyond what smartphones are already capable of) I just can't comprehend it.

Why would people voluntarily do this in exchange for being able to ask for
weather, play a playlist, add a todo and a few other parlor tricks.

I guess I value my privacy more than others and don't like the idea of
entities compiling a record of my data that they can sell and market.

Imagine how some governments could use this data to limit freedoms, crack down
on their opposition.

And what about the first data breech that includes transcripts or even audio
of all your household conversations/activities over the past three years
matched up to your email or even address?

It just sounds like we are heading down the wrong road.

~~~
oppositelock
What does having a Nest thermostat get you? I'm a tech dude, I build modern
software, but I live in a dumb, old fashioned house. My programmable Honeywell
thermostat, which has no internet connection, does a perfectly fine job of
keeping my home the right temperature. My door locks use a key, and keys have
great battery life, and my smoke detectors beep instead of speaking to me.
What am I missing by not having internet connected stuff?

~~~
exclusiv
A programmable keypad is nice. I have a Z-wave one which can notify my
Smarthings hub which notifies me when it's locked or unlocked.

The Nest thermostat allows me to control the heat remotely.

These two things are great for rental properties. Guests often forget to lock
the door, I have records of when guests or maintenance people are coming or
going, I can adjust the heat to 55 when nobody is there which saves a lot of
money and more importantly I can ensure the heat is not turned off (which
could cause frozen pipes) which some guests do for some reason.

Outside of a rental, these things aren't as useful. But I'd still get a
programmable keypad (I've been running the Yale touchscreen ones in the
mountains for years). It's very handy for friends or maintenance and with a
Smartthings hub you can unlock the door remotely and give no code. Or give a
code and change it later. I got the one with a key backup just in case but I
haven't had the touchscreen fail yet.

I do run the Nest cameras outside and they've been nice to check snow levels,
bust the spa maintenance guy for not even showing up, expose a neighbor for
stealing firewood and rocks, expose guests who brought an actual bus full of
people, expose another guest for filming a movie, and plenty of other things
that have been helpful documentation.

It's kind of crazy how far the Nest cams pick up audio and how clear it is. So
be cautious of these things because they are constantly recording and it makes
it easy to scrub for footage (detects and quick links to voices, dogs barking,
people, etc). I only listen to the audio when it's applicable (guests are
doing something they shouldn't) but I'd imagine that some homeowners are
watching and listening for fun.

~~~
205guy
It sounds like you have _short-term_ rental properties, aka unregulated
hotels, or more accurately regulation-skirting residential businesses. In
normal rentals, guests are called tenants, and in most places tenants have all
the same privacy rights as property owners. Therefore, a landlord having
access to or retaining any information about door usage or audio-video of the
property would likely be illegal. Perhaps a camera pointed at the driveway and
public street for security purposes, but even then only with full disclosure
to the tenant. Frankly, I wouldn't rent anywhere the owner had installed
his/her own cameras--if necessary for security, I'd install my own.

Of course, the same privacy rights also likely apply to short-term guests as
well, but while everyone is skirting regulations, what's a bit of surveillance
in addition. I mean you've basically admitted (why people can't just shut up
when they break the law) that you record your guests in outside areas where
they can expect privacy (sounds like the hot tub). That people make movies in
places they expect privacy (shocking), and of course you don't look at any of
those skinny-dipping videos _wink wink_. Funny how unregulated businesses
attracting unregulated activities still like to have some way to regulate
their guests--and do so likely illegally.

Yeah, I know, some airbnb guests can be jerks, abuse the crap out of your
investment, I mean second-home you couldn't afford without hotel-income. But
you don't deal with the bad apples by violating the rights of everyone else,
at least unless you want to invite scrutiny and regulation into your
activities.

~~~
Rebelgecko
>That people make movies in places they expect privacy

If they're doing unpermitted guerilla filmmaking on someone else's property,
they're just as guilty of violating someone's privacy and doing unregulated
business activity.

FWIW, when I lived in a house where the landlord installed security cameras
there wasn't much we could do about it. The law was on their side for outside
cameras and cameras in common areas (like a laundry room)

------
LudwigNagasena
>"Gosh, I haven't thought about this before in quite this way," Osterloh said.
"It's quite important for all these technologies to think about all users...
we have to consider all stakeholders that might be in proximity."

How much do they not care about privacy that a chief exec with an army of
lawyers and advisors "haven't thought about this before"?

~~~
XJ6
All "big tech" are at it, I tried to go to "My Pictures" the other day and
microsoft asked me to run my pictures through facial recognition.

They said that by consenting I was asserting I had the consent of anyone who
appeared in any of my photos or might appear in future which is insane to ask
of anyone, no-one can really give that third party consent.

Then when I refused they showed me a nag screen which didn't have that
warning.

Then just yesterday I opened google camera and it really wanted to run face
recognition on my photos. I refused.

I wanted to try the google podcasts but it was a brick because I had disabled
"youtube & web activity" in google account settings. There was no way to
subscribe to podcasts without web activity, the application said. And without
subscribing there was nothing the app could do.

We have a company claiming that because I don't consent to have my web and
youtube activity tracked that there's no way I could subscribe to a podcast
that I explicitly choose to subscribe to in an application designed for
subscribing to podcasts.

They don't stop trying, everyone is trying to hoover up all data, all the
time.

~~~
prepend
Google has implemented this asshole design/nagware in many products to push
unnecessary to me and invasive data collection or functionality I want won’t
be available.

For example, their maps app on iOS won’t save locations for me unless I sign
in an enable web history tracking. I get prompted every time I try to save a
pin as well as every once in a while I’m case I change my mind.

It’s a free app and it’s Google’s prerogative to try to get value out of it.
But it’s annoying to me that they purposely don’t implement client tech (eg,
save to app cache, device cookie not tied to individual) that would make their
app better for me. And that they nag with no way to turn off forever. Their
app already shows ads and makes money for them, they just want more money from
the data stream.

I also worry about less savvy customers who don’t understand the prompt and
unwittingly opt in to data collection that exists forever. The Facebook
privacy explosion of last year is an example of users who accepted terms, but
didn’t understand them, and got upset when data was used in ways that upset
them.

~~~
astral303
I think Google Maps not saving your history as you described is an incredibly
bad, frustrating experience.

FFS, my phone has gigs of RAM, why can’t Google Maps remember the address I
searched for ten minutes ago? One minute ago? This is 2019. It has been this
bad for a decade plus. Embarrassing IMO and demonstrates true UX myopia and
true UX incompetence.

~~~
SamuelAdams
Personally I switched to Apple Maps after the iOS 13 release and haven't
looked back. Because it's integrated into the OS, Apple Maps can look into
your messages and auto-complete addresses from that. It can also save places
without you signing into an account.

The only thing I miss is google's "offline" mode. I live in Michigan, and I
frequently go on trips up north into heavily wooded areas. I don't always get
cell service, so being able to save map data locally is a huge benefit. I can
still search for nearby gas stations or stores even if I do not have cell
service.

From what I tried, there's no way to save data in Apple Maps - it assumes the
device is always connected to the internet.

~~~
DHPersonal
HERE WeGo has an offline version. [https://apps.apple.com/us/app/here-wego-
city-navigation/id95...](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/here-wego-city-
navigation/id955837609)

------
gtallen1187
I feel like this headline is a bit misleading. If you read the actual
conversation, the question posed to this Google Exec seems to be more about
manners than anything else. The question reads to me as: "Do you think you
should let your houseguests know that you have a camera in the house?" to
which the answer is clearly yes. The way this headline is structured seems to
imply that the Google Exec is warning users that they're always being
watched/recorded.

Again, this is simply my interpretation of the conversation, but I feel as
though it's a reasonable one. And one that was likely shared by the Google
Exec in this article.

------
Santosh83
A few short years ago it was incomprehensible, even in the west, to have what
is essentially a permanently bugged house. Now it has been normalised to such
an extent that even people who claim to be aware of privacy use Alexa et al at
home in a striking display of dissonance. The general public at large has been
sold such attractive shiny toys that they don't realise that the price they
pay for using them is to unconsciously disabuse themselves of any notion of
assuming privacy, even in your _private_ space and activities. This training
has been so effective that they will actually defend these practices and claim
that you're a 'tin foil hat wearer' and paranoid to be speaking up for
reclaiming what was normal and natural as short as two generations back.

~~~
irq-1
People used to ask me why I don't use Facebook. I haven't been asked that in
about two years.

I predict that three years from now the majority will share our views about
voice and video recording.

~~~
slouch
This is such an optimistic and hopeful comment. Thanks. I hope you're right.

------
khelenek
These comments are lunacy. He's suggesting etiquette if someone puts a Nest
recording device (not a thermostat) inside their house purposefully, probably
for security purposes. Security cameras have existed for decades and nothing
has changed here.

~~~
tziki
Welcome to hacker news, where facts don't matter and big tech is always out to
get you.

~~~
mav3rick
Watch this be downvoted and people post comments like "DuckDuckGo way better",
"I want an offline smart speaker", "Google doesn't know technology".

~~~
scarejunba
These people are going to be easily outcompeted in society while they find
terror in every corner and box shadows. On the Internet, this shrill outrage
may pass for conversation but in real life people will walk away.

------
pmlnr
I'm genuinely curious why only nest, alexa, google home[^1] devices get
highlighted - aren't they all use the same tech as the Google App on android?
Why are android phones not flagged as well?

[^1]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21262521](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21262521)

~~~
madez
I wish it were socially accepted to tell people to turn their Android device
off while they are in company. I wish I could tell people that visit me to
turn their device off or put it into rf and sound shielded containers.

I don't mind people using computers and their powers to ease their lives. I
don't want to deny them that just because they are next to me or in my home. I
just don't want them to use that power to collect and track and surveil
everything at all times around them, wittingly or unwittinlgy.

~~~
soulofmischief
I have voice-activated assistant on my droid turned off, meanwhile Siri is
active on all iDevices, and everyone with a laptop at your place is a mole.

Do you expect to altogether prevent people from bringing computing devices
into your home? If you are not a state target, then that is just silly. Focus
your malcontent on the real bad actors, not their victims.

~~~
a3n
Actually this is interesting. Some US states require two party consent for
recording. Doesn't that make a phone in your pocket illegal in those states,
unless you say "I have a phone in my pocket, and it's recording."

~~~
soulofmischief
Let's travel to such a state and find out for ourselves. We'll flip a coin on
who gets to be the defendant.

------
PeterBarrett
Having read the short article it's pretty clear that he was simply saying that
if you have an indoor nest camera it would be proper etiquette to tell your
guests that they are being recorded on your device. From how I read it, he
wasn't saying to let your guests know that Nest/Google might be listening.

Personally I'd never have one of these devices in my house but I would
appreciate it if my friends gave me a heads up if I was in their house with
one.

~~~
sb8244
Yes, I read it this same way. I'm not really sure that's an outrageous
statement....

I thought initially that Nest meant thermostats and was shocked, but it's
pretty clear he's talking about Nest Cameras.

------
augustk
I think a device with a camera/microphone should have a physical on/off button
and a LED which indicates when it's on. At least, that's how I would design
it.

~~~
tantalor
I'm sure any 0-day capable of eavesdropping on your phone can also disable the
LED.

~~~
diffeomorphism
I'm sure that is why any device which includes such an LED insists on it being
hardware not software. Even a magical 0-day is not going to break the laws of
physics.

------
kareemm
Since cameras and mics are embedded in all kinds of consumer devices these
days, it makes me think we need a site that recommends devices that DONT
include surveillance as a “feature”. Sort of a Wirecutter for privacy.

Does this exist?

~~~
woodrowbarlow
well it really depends how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

a laptop running OSS is better than a laptop running win10, but then there's
usually still intel ME doing goodness knows what.

a phone running sailfish or f-droid is better than OEM android, but there's
still your cellular service provider selling location data to goodness knows
who.

anyway, check out the pinebook (laptop), librem 5 (phone), mycroft (voice
assistant).

~~~
username7
Yep. Two phones hacked already, could be a us-based three letter or could be
something else. Can find the hacking only because of transperancy into some
components of the network, but certainly that does not include my phone...

Just another ant on the ant hill, the only difference is that I was able to
identify that I had compromised security (with the phone)...

I want to go all the way down the rabbit hole & can hardly wait for the lebrim
5.

“Those that would give up a little liberty for security deserve neither
liberty, nor security”- my attitude is those who were spying on me can go
screw themselves!

------
madrox
Every time an article like this comes up on HN it's the exact same concerns,
the exact same HN comments, and the exact same arguments. I don't feel like
the conversation has moved on significantly since Alexa came out. It makes me
wonder why articles like these keep getting upvoted and commented on with the
same stuff. Is this tabs vs spaces for the privacy world?

~~~
Sendotsh
Tabs vs Spaces, Windows vs Apple (vs Linux to a smaller extent), Xbox vs
PlayStation, Coke vs Pepsi, people are opinionated and it’s as old as time
itself (religion, nationality, us vs them).

People like agreeing with those that agree with them, and disagreeing with
those who don’t. Very rarely will any news on any of those topics actually
progress anything, or change anyone’s beliefs/opinions, but people still like
trying.

------
FabHK
FWIW, I'm living a Google-free live now, and it works very well:

\- DuckDuckGo as default search engine

\- Own domain for email, forwarded to Apple's mail

\- Apple map, Yandex map, Waze, Here WeGo for maps (depending on the country)

\- For videos, I search them in DDG with "<searchterm> !yt", then copy the
links I want and download them with `youtube-dl`

\- Firefox and Safari

\- Zoho as a replacement for online docs and spreadsheets

etc.

EDIT to add: I should say that I _try_ to live Google-free...

~~~
auiya
You're likely not at all living "Google free". [https://gizmodo.com/i-cut-
google-out-of-my-life-it-screwed-u...](https://gizmodo.com/i-cut-google-out-
of-my-life-it-screwed-up-everything-1830565500)

~~~
perfect_wave
This was a great article. I found the one on the author attempting to cut
Amazon out of her life even more interesting:

[https://gizmodo.com/i-tried-to-block-amazon-from-my-life-
it-...](https://gizmodo.com/i-tried-to-block-amazon-from-my-life-it-was-
impossible-1830565336)

It's next to impossible. Maybe one day our antitrust laws (and the rest of our
laws I suppose) will catch up to the world we're living in.

------
nesky
Your layman user has an very limited concept of what privacy actually is or
represents. Conceptually speaking they don't understand this data is curated,
profiled, stored, analyzed, and continually built upon 24/7 from dozens of
sources and companies leaving the user with little to no capability of ever
erasing or controlling said data.

I've personally encountered numerous people/families who think it's the utmost
importance for them and their children to know how to interface and learn with
this technology as if they won't be able to survive without them in the
future. What frightens me is how now these systems are able to start
incorporating voice patterns, literal emotion in my voice that can be analyzed
alongside any of the multitude of other data points they've already collected.

------
pfdietz
The Internet of Things I Won't Buy

------
raverbashing
Does two-party consent even works if it's a 3rd party doing the recording and
it goes who knows where?

I'm sure this will also work just fine in Germany.

~~~
throwaway13337
It's a good question.

I hope that the law comes down on these devices such that it only makes sense
to keep and analyze all recorded data locally.

If recorded data is never the property of the corporations but of the private
owner of the device, a lot of the issues with them could be defanged.

On the flip side, the value proposition for these devices may then be reduced
- both for the corporations that produce them and the customers that use them.

~~~
vegardx
Not really, in many places you're not allowed to record conversations you're
not actively engaging in, even on private property.

~~~
paulcole
Can you give an example of those places?

~~~
freeflight
Germany's Criminal Code, Section 201 Violation of the Confidentiality of the
Spoken Word [0]:

Punished with imprisonment up to three years or a fine, just the attempt is
already punishable.

[0]
[https://germanlawarchive.iuscomp.org/?p=752#201](https://germanlawarchive.iuscomp.org/?p=752#201)

------
ByThyGrace
Law people of HN: say you went into someone else's home, someone who owns one
of these devices, and recited, aloud, your own License Agreement, from start
to finish, where you state that the speech following the terms agreed by the
processor of your own spoken records must follow certain hard rules etc. (i.e.
your run-of-the-mill ToS language), and then just behave normally.

Imagine Google or whichever tracking corporation's server parses your speech
and turns it to text. Which then gets labeled, processed, fed back into other
databases, etc.

The question is: Would it become binding at any point? Would it grant you any
rights, produce any liability?

Edit: added one key aspect.

------
afpx
How is this even legal if wiretapping is illegal in many places?

~~~
IshKebab
I don't think there's anywhere where it's illegal to record conversations of
both parties know about it.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
That's the point though, if your Nest device starts automatically recording
your guests and you don't warn them, could you be liable in a 2-party consent
state?

But on the flip side, Google Assistant devices don't start recording unless it
gets the "OK Google" keyword, so it's not like it's randomly recording
everything. You specifically have to turn it on (albeit it can be turned on
accidentally if it misdetects an OK Google). Is this somehow different from
Nest devices?

~~~
gmadsen
its listening for that keyword, whose to say its not listening for others

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
As an EE, this is the exact point of failure I see even from tech people on
this topic.

There is LITERALLY ZERO way to tell that your “Assistant” is not listening for
words like Trump or Sanders then marking down in a log if they were mentioned
with other words like “Fucking” or “Communist” or whatever.

No one has or realistically can do a full reverse engineer of the firmware
here, you’re talking about the same protections used in game consoles and
smart phones.

The “research” into “is my Alexa spying on me” looks at large pattern
encrypted traffic and determines they aren’t always uploading. But they
absolutely could be collecting metadata of what you talk about without the
words themselves.

The meta data of your habits and conversations for a month would be kilobytes
at most and sent in a single HTTP/MQTT message that could look a ping or
keepalive or some normal traffic.

------
irishloop
I know it puts me in the minority, but I honestly do not care that much. It's
obfuscation by volume.

If Google wants to hear me and my roommate argue about Red Dead Redemption
online or the new Bill Burr comedy special, good luck with that.

When I worked in IT, people always used to say oh you can read my emails?
Nobody wants to read about your boring-ass life.

My understanding is they are using our speech to create better speech-
recognition and it shows. I have much better luck with OK Google than Siri. I
willingly give up my privacy for a superior product because most of my
conversations are inane.

And if I ever intend to murder anyone, I will turn off Alexa.

~~~
falcolas
This is simply a "I have nothing to hide" argument, and the rebuttals to this
have been done frequently and better than I can manage.

~~~
okmokmz
Yup, here are a number of articles on the subject

[https://leastauthority.com/blog/debunking-the-nothing-to-
hid...](https://leastauthority.com/blog/debunking-the-nothing-to-hide-
rhetoric/)

[https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/it-security/why-nothing-
to...](https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/it-security/why-nothing-to-hide-
misrepresents-online-privacy/)

[http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/surveillance-you-may-have-
nothing...](http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/surveillance-you-may-have-nothing-hide)

[https://www.wired.com/2013/06/why-i-have-nothing-to-hide-
is-...](https://www.wired.com/2013/06/why-i-have-nothing-to-hide-is-the-wrong-
way-to-think-about-surveillance/)

[https://www.zdnet.com/article/privacy-is-innately-flawed-
not...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/privacy-is-innately-flawed-nothing-to-
hide-does-not-exist/)

[https://mashable.com/2013/06/13/julian-sanchez-
nsa/](https://mashable.com/2013/06/13/julian-sanchez-nsa/)

[https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130613/12180423457/if-
yo...](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130613/12180423457/if-youve-got-
nothing-to-hide-youve-actually-got-plenty-to-hide.shtml)

[https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/tim-carney-even-law-
abidi...](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/tim-carney-even-law-abiding-
people-should-oppose-surveillance)

[https://www.chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-Matters-
Even-i...](https://www.chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-Matters-Even-
if/127461/)

[https://uproxx.com/technology/prism-why-you-should-care-
even...](https://uproxx.com/technology/prism-why-you-should-care-even-if-you-
have-nothing-to-hide/)

[https://reason.com/2013/06/12/three-reasons-the-nothing-
to-h...](https://reason.com/2013/06/12/three-reasons-the-nothing-to-hide-
crowd/)

[https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/05/the_value_of_...](https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/05/the_value_of_pr.html)

------
pkrefta
I wonder - has Google became with "no-privacy" by default ?

------
cromwellian
I think the issue of smart speakers picking up a fragment of conversation is
less an issue than security cameras which are designed for constant recording
function. Nest sells inside the house security cameras. Regardless of whether
these things are internet connected or not, recording people (eg house guests)
on video without their consent is a problem.

If a Nest cam was recording to VHS tape in the closet and didn’t have an
internet connection at all it would still be an issue.

------
Fnoord
Google could have the device say that it records conversations the moment it
detects an unknown voice. Google could even ask that unknown voice for
consent.

~~~
netsharc
Didn't Nest want to create devices with cameras? It should just do face
recognition to detect people who hasn't consented.. /s

And just like clicking "I'm under 18" on porn sites takes you to disney.com,
or "continuing to use this site means you accept cookies", if they don't
consent, stuff connected to Google would stop working...

"Ok Google, turn on the kitchen lights". "Operation failed with error
undefined!"

~~~
SparkyMcUnicorn
What's the point of a security camera if it can't record strangers?

------
iicc
Whatsapp stipulates that users are responsible for ensuring that their
phonebook contacts consented to having their details uploaded to facebook inc.

------
a3n
Why would anyone come back to a home after such a warning?

Think back 20 years. Would you come back to a home after the resident switched
on audio and video recorders and said "you're being recorded."

Now come back to the present, and add the word "thermostat." Does it make any
difference?

~~~
WillPostForFood
The Nest thermostats don’t have microphones. Houses have had security cameras
long before Google existed, as have a large percentage of retail businesses,
banks, gas stations, convenience stores, government offices.

~~~
jbarberu
I'd wager most people adjust their behavior accordingly. I would absolutely
expect privacy inside a home. If a friend had cameras inside their home I'd
probably even opt to meet in public, where at least there's no false sense of
privacy.

~~~
WillPostForFood
I get where you are coming from. How do you feel about things like Ring
doorbells, where you are on camera approaching a home. Audio is being captured
of at least some conversation inside the home, assuming there will be some
proximity to the front door.

~~~
jbarberu
In the general sense I'd say I'm ok with a ring pointed at people's own
property. I don't expect privacy in their front yard, might be a bit bothered
in a backyard. A neighbor pointing their camera at the street accidentally
capturing my coming and going would somehow feel like a privacy breach.

Ironically I currently have 2 ring cameras setup on the outside of my house,
installed by previous owner. I'm looking to replace them down the line as I
don't trust Amazon with my data.

------
jrobn
I have the original Nest thermostat. I think I’m going to rip it off the wall
and replace it with something that isn’t front a scumbag company.

This is exactly why I don’t own google phones, assistance, or home automation
products. YOU ARE THE PRODUCT!

------
_wldu
A friend of mine likes to say, "The P in IoT stands for Privacy".

------
daveslash
_> > Why would people voluntarily do this in exchange for _

I live in an apartment. Having a Nest thermostat installed was _not my choice_
\-- I would not have opted for that myself, but alas, my apartment complex
installed them in every apartment. I have chosen not to connect it to any
network. I've heard speculation that we're not far off from having hard
social-discussions about the rights of renters -- what is the relationship
between tenants and landlords going to look like in regards to smart devices?

------
pschastain
Just another example of why I want to be done with Google. Between privacy
concerns and the way they drop their own hardware I simply no longer trust
them. Time to start migrating away...

------
yummypaint
Just wanted to point out that voice control doesnt have to involve audio from
peoples homes being streamed over the internet. We already have the technology
to do everything client side aside from the search request itself. You can bet
companies have no interest in pursuing this though. The voice control vs
privacy narrative is preferable to these companies because they can pretend
there are no alternatives and keep collecting.

------
standardUser
Google Home/Assistant doesn't provide much value for me anyway. Half the time
it doesn't even do what I say. I'd like to stop using it, but I use it to
control a variety of smart lights and smart plugs, which are extremely useful
in my very old apartment.

Is there an app that can handle those and other connected devices without a
Google Home or similar? Or would I have to use a different app for each
individual component?

------
NelsonMinar
Don't forget all the TV panels in your house listening in on you too. Me, I
don't plug any "smart" TV into the Internet. But a lot of folks do.

I think the horse has left the barn on this kind of technology. What I hate
most about it is that it's impossible for an ordinary person to understand
exactly what all might be spying on them at any moment.

~~~
slouch
Sure, but TVs aren't always on like this Nest device.

~~~
bob1029
This is not always true anymore. Many modern Samsung TVs (and I am sure some
other popular brands) have a standby update option, which would imply it is
actually "always on".

Ideally, it is only checking for the latest firmware version while you think
it's off, but almost certainly it is doing other nefarious things you have
zero visibility into.

~~~
slouch
> but almost certainly it is doing other nefarious things you have zero
> visibility into.

I just can't get on board with that.

[https://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-
smar...](https://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smart-tv-
snooping-features/)

------
algaeontoast
Yeah, I’m definitely selling or throwing out my nVidia shield now.

I think we should start shaming people who have these stupid “assistant”
devices in their homes...

I generally turn my phone off when I’m home and keep it in a cigar box.
However, it sucks because it’d still be great to actually communicate with
friends / use the internet without my device having a hot mic.

------
yannovitch
As this website is called _Hacker_ News, I would suggest to install rather one
of the numerous IoT platform such as Home Assistant or OpenHAB, and connect
one of your devices to it. A Raspberry Pi is more than enough to do the job.

------
dang
Url changed from [https://www.pulse.ng/bi/tech/google-exec-says-nest-owners-
sh...](https://www.pulse.ng/bi/tech/google-exec-says-nest-owners-should-
probably-warn-their-guests-that-their/z1e1d5n), which points to this.

------
eth0up
Is it unfeasible to pursue expansion of dual/two-party consent laws to cover
this in some way?

------
gerash
I think that's how you end up with corp. speak. Anything an exec says is going
to be blown out of proportion for grabbing clicks. Next time he gets a
question he's going to read his answer from a legal and PR approved script.

------
hkt
Conveniently moving the burden of privacy awareness from the company to the
consumer. Sort of like how big oil wants us all to think the climate emergency
is about our choices as individuals rather than their massive horrendous
enterprises.

------
RandomBacon
Legislation we need: "smart" devices need to come packaged with labels for
people to put on their door warning guests that there is audio recording
equipment inside and no expectation of privacy can be provided.

~~~
jdlyga
Is the distinction that it's private space? There's tons of recording
equipment monitoring public roads, sidewalks, streets, inside stores, etc. In
Manhattan, you're on camera way more than you're off camera.

------
jklinger410
Also time to start asking people to leave their phones in their cars, taking
them as they walk in your door, or warning them that you have your phone on as
well.

Anyone who uses a voice assistant should be warning others of this at all
times.

------
karpodiem
Which is why I unplug my Nest from the wall socket when I get back to my
apartment.

------
lavezzi
Why has the original BBC article not been linked to instead?
[https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50048144](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50048144)

------
sorokod
What about recordings by that radar gizmo the new pixel is fitted with? Should
owners warn "guest" that their movements are recorded?

My promotion is not dependent on finding ways to monetize this data but Gait
analysis is a thing.

------
ThrowMeAwayOkay
I can guarantee you I'm not letting any of that smart crap into my home. The
fact people willingly hook up something that records conversations and even
video of their private lives...dumbfounds me.

------
tomcooks
[https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50048144](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50048144)

why wouldn't you post the original BBC article, I wonder.

------
tweednose
We already are potentially bugged everywhere via our phones.

That said, I refuse to install cameras anywhere except the outside of my
house. I don't want a recording of friends coming over and talking to me.

------
beepboopbeep
I just don't understand the value added by a smart speaker or an "AI
Assistant" of any kind. It seems like so much effort for such a minute return
on convenience.

------
boringg
Darn, I just bought for nest smoke alarms - I figured that was safe from being
spied on by google. Man thats super disapointing. Why do we need microphones
in smoke alarms?!

------
chenning
Dumb question, but why are people so surprised by this? Can you honestly say
at this point in the game that you had no idea this was happening or that this
is news to you?

~~~
evross
One simple answer is that marketing (a.k.a. thought manipulation) works.
Propaganda works. What's the advertisement/marketing spending for all these
surveillance companies' products in the past 10 years? And, in comparison,
what about the advertising spending for consumer awareness of privacy respect
and personal information security? Combine that lopsided-ness with the general
person's lack of technical/surveillance education and it's more understandable
why people aren't rejecting these companies' creepy behaviour.

------
davidwitt415
For home automation usage, Voice UI doesn't need to be in the cloud. Does
anybody here have any experience using Mycroft AI or other local solutions?

------
intrepidkarthi
The mobile phones and apps are already eavesdropping when it is active. Smart
speakers are just add-ons to collect data 24X7.

------
haxorito
I make my guest sign agreement before they enter my property... I don’t have
many people visiting me anymore

------
pnw_hazor
It is a crime in WA and some other states to record conversations without
consent of all parties.

------
squarefoot
Then what about digital assistants, and cellphones, and connected car
computers, and...?

~~~
jdgoesmarching
Seriously, most people here probably send location data to Google several
times a day and have for almost a decade. We all make security tradeoffs for
convenience, people high roading on this thread are no different.

The people avoiding voice assistants and smart locks probably have 50 way more
vulnerable security gaps in their personal lives

------
buboard
Wonderful times when your thermostat cant work without spying on you having
sex

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
All's good so long as you yell out "BB is great!"

------
reaperducer
Quote A: "I haven't thought about this before in quite this way"

and then

B: "Does the owner of a home need to disclose to a guest? I would and do when
someone enters into my home"

If A is true, then B is a lie.

If B is true, then A is a lie.

If A is true, then Google doesn't have the smartest kids in the room running
things.

------
coding123
Maybe they can drop in Soli and have Nest warn them automatically...

------
classified
So Google has made it official that they're a manufacturer of spyware. All
that stuff should be illegal right off the bat since it merrily spies on
people who never gave their consent.

------
jstewartmobile
I have an ordinary thermostat that doesn't need firmware, an internet
connection, or to eavesdrop on my conversations. It works great!

What exactly is the advantage here?

~~~
lotsofpulp
Automatically turning HVAC systems on and off depending if the place is empty,
turning it back on remotely, cycling the fan on and off to circulate air more
often, removing excess humidity, using data about sunlight to adjust temps.

There must be energy savings for the utility companies to give them out for
free or almost free. Although I prefer the HomeKit thermostats since I presume
Apple has better privacy controls.

~~~
jstewartmobile
Don't know about other parts of the country, but where I'm at (low 80s @night,
mid 90s @day), that's all false economy.

Turning it down while away for a few hours just means a struggle to get the
temps back down when I return. And in places where summer is less hateful,
best option is to turn it off altogether and open the windows.

To a utility company, just shaving a percent or two off consumption is a slam-
dunk. Not so much out of eco-friendlyness as fear of having to add more
capacity. Personally, I will gladly pay another percent or two on my power
bill to not have any more SV awfulness in my house than necessary.

------
luckydata
Or more simply not buy a nest product

------
RealObama
Make your own IoT Devices people!

------
LoSboccacc
jUst PUT a GDPR nOtice on THE DOoR

~~~
njsubedi
You mean, a curtain [banner] that displays a notice, which the visitors need
to move aside [close] to enter the house? ;)

------
throwaway9983
Not being funny but i have a nest and i don't remember anything i the set up
about any microphone at all, also i don't remember anything about agreeing to
share personal data.

I assumed it would be uploading usage and stats as nobody respects privacy but
that is very different to actual recordings or images ffs.

i live in the EU so this seems a pretty clear breach of GDPR no? i would have
needed individual opt in consent for each of these (i would have thought)

------
jacquesm
Hahaha. Sorry, really? Your bloody thermostat requires a consent form now for
visitors to your house. This madness should really stop. All these appliances
with microphones phoning home your every spoken word should be burned in a
large pile. Let's start over, this is not going to end well.

~~~
mrzimmerman
It's not including the thermostat, but he's specifically talking about
etiquette, not legally binding EUAs with your house guests.

Think of it more as "Oh, btw, I've got cameras in the living room, kitchen,
and on the back patio if that's something that bugs you."

------
UweSchmidt
No person or device has ever asked me for consent for _their_ Siris, Cortanas
and Alexas. So this time and place is as good as any:

I do not consent to the audio-, image- or video recording of any "smart
device" that is not my own. I ask that any such data about me that has been
passively recorded be deleted.

------
edoo
This happens to be a good example of how there are so many laws you likely
break some all the time. California requires consent from all present who have
vibrated the air while you record the air vibrations (but not with your ears
and brain storage!). That means if the google phone in your pocket listens to
people at a restaurant or your alexa listens to your delivery man for a second
you are a criminal under California penal code.

~~~
soulofmischief
> California requires consent from all present who have vibrated the air while
> you record the air vibrations

One-party recording laws enable us to catch bad actors. Otherwise, you can't
do things like record Rob Ford smoking crack and being a racist piece of shit
while the incumbent mayor. The fact that you don't have the right to record a
conversation you are participating in is _not a good thing_.

~~~
eth0up
I'll tell of an actual situation that is different, but with similar elements.

Guy A arranges for presumed friend (pf) to provide transport for post surgery
where benzodiazepines are administered along with local anesthetics. Guy A is
still hesitant after 1st dose of benzo, so another is given and surgery
proceeds. Afterwards, pf transports intoxicated guy A home, but for whatever
reason, they agree to go elsewhere. Along the way, pf insists on purchasing
liquor, which guy A feebly objects to. Liquor is purchased. Guy A and pf
arrive at some home and drink liquor. Guy A is now drinking hard liquor on a
double dose of surgical grade benzodiazepine and is concealing the effects
poorly. Guy A, whose personality includes jovially natured hyperbole on
occasion, is now saying abnormally odd things. Throughout this occasion, pf
fails to inform guy A of recordings taking place in the car, home and on pf's
phone. The following day, pf takes Guy A to retrieve vehicle from medical
facility and informs guy A of his obnoxious behavior and deranged rhetoric on
previous night. Guy A is a bit alarmed and skeptical, but regretfully accepts
that in such a state, dumb things were said. Pf, however, does not share
recordings with guy A, but does with friends, without disclosing context.

~~~
soulofmischief
That really sucks. Unfortunately some shitty behavior might not be able to be
legislated away if the alternative is severely impactful to the state of civil
liberty.

We won't find a perfect law which only allows good behavior, but we can find
one that catches the most bad behavior with the least impact on those with
good behavior.

