
Ask HN: How I can get out of a job that has me burned out and exhausted? - ModernMan
Four years ago I started a job and it was pretty good at first.  But due to some corporate changes everybody just got slammed with work. Upper management does not think it&#x27;s wise to hire more people so they are burning everybody out and people are leaving. The workload is unmanageable and it just never ends.<p>It&#x27;s time to move on but I am just too burned out.  I have even recently caught myself forgetting pretty basic stuff.  My weekend are just spent recovering from the week really.  I don&#x27;t do much activity that I used to for fun because I am just so tired. I asked my psychiatrist and I am not depressed.<p>Any advice?
======
ebiester
There's another option. While doing the interviews, and preparing to GTFO,
just go back down to 40 hours. Slow down. Increase code quality. And
intentionally miss your deadlines.

This is something you can only do when things are crazy and out of control,
and everyone else is leaving. You see, they cannot fire you because they
cannot hire anyone to come in. Thus, you doing any work is better than having
noone.

Make sure to communicate that these won't be done. Tell them that they need to
make contingency plans and give them your own schedule of reasonable dates.
(Of course, you need to make sure to make _these_ dates.)

If they bring you in for discipline, play the health card. "Health is
something you cannot pay enough for me to exchange. I started having major
health problems, and they were stress related. I cannot meet the given dates,
and I am communicating that. It is your job to manage client expectations as a
manager."

The current climate for programmers means that you can do this right now.

~~~
Aqueous
I've done this. It mostly worked - but I had to give up some of my management
responsibilities because of my health problems. I'm still gainfully employed
but my superiors don't look at me as being the number one player on my team
anymore- probably the number two. Another guy who spends all of his time
working on weekends and on nights has taken on that role.

It's always a trade off. The organization does what it can get away with. You
can pull back to 40 hours but someone else will fill the vacuum that you left
behind.

So: I agree. Tell your bosses that they need to better manage client
expectations, but recognize that they won't because they think they don't have
to (other people are doing the work right? Management's work/life balance is
fine!) You might be giving up some upward mobility or your 'irreplacable
status' in your team. If you're anything like me, this will be an acceptable
price to pay for you to regain some work/life balance and your health.

~~~
csallen
I think his point was to only do this temporarily while preparing to leave for
another company, whereas in your situation it seems you sought to stay at your
current company while maintaining a lighter workload.

~~~
Aqueous
Yes, that's true - and I guess my point is that you can dial it back without
necessarily planning to leave, but it comes at a cost. And, better yet, the
cost may not be permanent - you could regain your former status by dialling
the hours back up and making sure your superiors notice, or learning how to
work smart as a substitute for working hard. The other people are bound to
burn out eventually.

I guess I should provide the disclaimer that a lot of this depends on your
history with the company. I singlehandedly got my company through a
transitional period that has caused it to double in size since. That bought me
a lot of capital. And while I have not been able to keep up that pace since
then, my bosses remember even if their attitude seems to be, "What have you
done for me lately?"

------
danso
1\. I wish I had learned this earlier, but don't take things personally. It
doesn't sound like you have in your post, but to reiterate, don't let
resentment eat you up because you'll need the energy (and self-confidence)
when applying to new jobs.

2\. Look for new jobs...passively, at first. Put up a LinkedIn...if you're a
developer, put up a Github profile. If you're a Ruby/Rails/Python,
_definitely_ put up a Github profile...I have a perfectly fine job but I keep
getting recruitment emails from YC and big Valley companies simply because I
have (pretty much non-used) repos that are classified as being Ruby.

3\. Don't piss off anyone at your current company. See #1 - reduce any
resentment or frustration you're feeling. Meditation helps. But mostly, no
matter what, remember that this is just temporary...any negative feelings you
have now, you're going to look back in a month (from the perspective of your
new job) and you'll think..."Why was I so down/angry ?" Negativity/pessimism
isn't all bad...if it spurs you on to greater things. But it sounds like
you're already on your way to looking for greater things, so no need to let
negativity eat at you past that point.

Edit: riffing off of other advice in this thread

4\. If you aren't overworked, or even if you are, I would definitely work on
some side projects, or find an open source project to contribute to. Not just
for resume padding (which is frankly, not going to be enough motivation for
you to work on it diligently), but to hone your skills, as it sounds like
you're worried that the drain at work has caused you to regress a little. Aim
for the side-projects to be as much of a win-win as possible...even if the
side-project isn't popular or completely polished, have it at least be
_useful_ to you, in your own life...not only is that kind of project fun to
build, but it gives you something to be passionate to talk about, either in
normal life or in interviews.

~~~
inmyunix
probably one of the most important things to remember in OP's shoes: 3. Don't
piss off anyone at your current company.

~~~
rational-future
It really depends. E.g. if you're a rockstar dev, you can afford to piss
whoever you want, as long as they deserve it. Making the right enemies is also
a very important social skill.

------
spenuke
Here's some advice: Stop looking for advice. I don't mean to sound harsh. But
considering that you had to ask your psychiatrist whether or not you were
depressed (not to mention that you accepted his/her answer unquestioningly),
and considering that you are asking the strangers of HN what to do, I would
suggest that you aren't really in touch with your own mind and actions.

Advice will be helpful. But in the end, the only one who can leave your job is
you. It sounds like you need to do it, so just do it. You'd be surprised how
well you can think for yourself once you make yourself do it. :)

------
alrs
Sometimes you're so burned out that you need to just stop working, and sit at
home and do nothing for a few months.

So this time you'll need to take a chunk out of your savings. Don't even
bother looking for a new job until you're two months in to your sabbatical.

Next time, get out before things get this bad.

Wikipedia has the Freudenberger and North model of burnout. I'm sure you'll
find yourself on there:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnout_(psychology)#Phases](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnout_\(psychology\)#Phases)

------
computerjunkie
">>> Upper management does not think it's wise to hire more people so they are
burning everybody out and people are leaving."

If you see a large number of co-workers, especially good ones leaving. Its a
sign something is wrong.

">>> It's time to move on but I am just too burned out."

If you know its time to move on. Leave. If you have savings, pay off your rent
and bills for 3-4 months and rest. Take walks(seriously take slow walks and
relax), take up a relaxing hobby, cook food (fresh food - no canned food), and
get enough sleep (7-8 hours minimum),whilst looking for another job.

I love working hard and I enjoy challenges, but if it means risking your
health/social life/family life to meet an unrealistic deadline, this is where
I draw the line. I used to work for a big company during summer vacation and
the upper management had the exact same attitude your said about hiring
people. They wanted a 5 man team to do a 10 man job.Into the second month I
was already depressed, hoping for the summer to finish quickly. Since the day
I left the place, I told myself I'll never work for a place which has a crappy
work/life balance again.

Remember you are replaceable and they know it.

~~~
ModernMan
You're right. I am just worried on how I explain that 3-4 month vacation

~~~
johan_larson
"Job search".

You don't even have to lie if you don't want to. Every time I've gone looking
for a job without a direct contact I could tap, it took several months.
Looking for a job is a long slow process that takes maybe a couple of hours a
day, even if you really work at it. It takes much less if you don't
particularly push. It can be pretty much a vacation if you want it to be one.

------
arasmussen
> Upper management does not think it's wise to hire more people so they are
> burning everybody out and people are leaving.

It is in everyone's, and especially upper management's, best interest that the
company does well. Rather than vilifying "upper management" and quitting and
being bitter about it, can you have a constructive conversation with someone
up the chain to help you AND the company out? If you're going to leave then
what do you really have to lose?

If it were me I would approach someone and say something along the lines of:

"I'm quite concerned for the well being of the company/organization/whatever.
I noticed that there were some corporate changes recently and since then many
employees, myself included, have felt burnt out and some have even started
leaving. I think this is due to the fact that we are understaffed and this
problem is only going to be exacerbated as people leave. What do you think?"

This could result in a number of things including decreased workload, more
hires, or nothing. In the positive cases everyone is happy and in the third
you don't lose anything and can still quit your job.

Best of luck!

~~~
georgemcbay
> Rather than vilifying "upper management" and quitting and being bitter about
> it, can you have a constructive conversation with someone up the chain to
> help you AND the company out?

While this may theoretically work in some situations and is arguably "worth a
shot" for someone with so little to lose, I've seen workplaces similar to the
ones the original post is describing and the times I've seen this happen
talking things out with management was not fruitful.

In my experience (admittedly anecdotal and a relatively small sample size), in
a company that goes sideways as described by OP you have 1-3 levels of manager
on top of you who are just as frazzled by the whole situation as you are. They
will commiserate, throw their hands in the air and tell you they've tried
pushing for changes, realistic release dates and/or hiring more resources and
have been denied by levels above them. Talking directly to _their_ managers
(VP or perhaps higher at this point) ends up in a pleasant conversation about
vague, nebulous reasons why things can't change right now and everyone has to
buckle down to help the company toward the brighter future that is right
around the corner. They will rarely-to-never give you direct reasons, eg. the
company is running out of money and seriously can't afford any extra
resources, and the next release is a hail mary attempt to save the business
and that's why it needs to be out on date X because the runway is totally gone
at X+Y where Y is a laughably small number if you ever actually learn it.

------
lovelearning
If you aren't doing so already, start a daily exercise routine before deciding
your next step.

Jogging, workout, walking, cycling, swimming...whatever you like at whatever
time and duration are convenient to you.

They give you a kind of physical and mental high that'll help cope with
stress.

I felt short term boosts in self-confidence and more long term improvements in
memory and recall (YMMV, of course).

~~~
hiou
This is great advice for high stress situations. But if it is overwork, it can
be impossible to take up an exercise routine when you are working 36 - 60
hours straight every other week. I've been there and remember just trying to
stay conscious let alone going for a run.

~~~
lovelearning
Need not be anything strenuous. Just a dozen pushups are good enough and take
hardly half a minute. Jumping up and down like a little kid is fine too! The
idea is to divert the mind away from the source of stress.

~~~
hiou
Right, but when it is exhaustion from not sleeping for days at a time and
working 14+ hours days 7 days a week for weeks at a time it stops being about
stress and simply trying to stay physically and mentally conscious. It sounded
to me original question was about dealing more with exhaustion than stress.
For stress, I would consider exercise an excellent suggestion.

------
smolsky
I suggest the following:

1 get off work no later than 6pm

2 walk/jog/exercise

3 cook your own tasty+healthy dinner and share it with friends

4 read a bit

5 find some hobbies

Do this for a few weeks. Then figure out what you want to do next.

Oh yeah, watch "Office space". Seriously.

~~~
DennisP
I handed in my resignation recently. Can confirm, watching "Office Space" then
buying the soundtrack and repeatedly listening to "Damn It Feels Good To Be A
Gangster" was great moral support.

------
YuriNiyazov
Is there any reason why you can't walk into your manager's office tomorrow and
say "this is my two weeks notice"?

~~~
damon_c
Yes. If there isn't a reason, do this. There are plenty of other companies
that would love to have you.

------
chippy
How long can you go without working?

Just quit.

Or... take unpaid leave, medical if need be, and have some time off.

Just quit, have a vacation, apply someplace else.

------
jayd77
Had the same issue, just moved to another country changed job. Started going
to the gym, started going to meetups. Take a long vacation and think about
what you want to do before you jump ship.

------
mkautzm
I mean, the obvious answer is 'do something else', but it's kinda up to you
what that is, and also depends on your situation.

If you are single with no dependants, then it can be anything you want. Do
something where you don't take work home. I burned out on Sys Admin work and
worked as a bartender for a year and loved it and came back as a .Net
developer.

If you have a family...Um... That's a much more complicated scenario.
Definitely do something new, but navigating that is going to be a lot
trickier.

------
j_lev
Could I ask, is there a "bullying culture" where you are now?

The reason I ask is because that is the only way I could reconcile "The
workload is unmanageable and it just never ends." It's hard for people who
haven't experienced it to explain why you can't just start saying no to
requests and leaving the office on time (even though this is possibly the only
way to salvage the situation).

~~~
ModernMan
What do you mean by bullying culture? There are times when somebody wants
something done, you explain to them that it's not possible or that it can be
done but it may take some time due to current queue and they go directly to to
the CIO/CTO and complain. I consider that a form of bullying so if that's what
you mean then yes it's rampant. Some do it some don't.

~~~
j_lev
If you just agree due to fear of repercussions, and "they" know this and
manipulate it to their advantage then yes, that's probably bullying. Best case
you're working with sociopaths.

------
zeeshanm
What are your skill sets? If you're a good programmer you can easily land
another job these days. If you don't have time to look and apply for jobs then
may be you should quit your current job to look for a new one. It may sound
like a bad idea now but in retrospect it'll may be worth it. Just think of the
opportunity costs associated with staying at current job or leaving it. Good
luck!

~~~
a3n
There's a middle ground, you could just take any minimally acceptable
contracting job. You won't be mentally committed to it, as no one would think
you were obligated to stay past the initial contract period. Just find
something that's not overly demanding. This will get you out of the rut that's
your current job, and hopefully give you time and rest to consider your next
real position.

------
jammycakes
Having been in a similar situation myself, it's obvious to me that you're
working for a company that's circling the drain. Low employee retention is
toxic even when management is actively recruiting to fill the gaps that are
left, and the fact that they aren't suggests to me that either the company is
in dire financial straits already, or else it is being so badly mismanaged
that it soon will be.

In such a situation, the only thing I can recommend is: make it your top
priority to find another job. The longer you stay, the worse it's going to
get, and the greater share of the blame you will be lumped with when things go
pear shaped.

If you can't find one quickly that matches your current seniority and salary,
would you be prepared to consider something a bit lower down the scale as a
stopgap? This wouldn't have to be long term -- just as an interim for a couple
of months or so until you can find something closer to your expectations that
you can make a bit more permanent.

~~~
ModernMan
I think in terms of IT ( development including) they have always circled the
drain. But other departments which are the majority of the companies function
keep it afloat.

------
DigitalSea
_How I can get out of a job that has me burned out and exhausted?_

To give you the honest truth, speak up or quit. You are not doing yourself or
your employer any favours staying and burning yourself out.

I was in the same situation about 6 months ago myself. I was part of a small
team that was increasingly being overworked and expected to deliver in
unrealistic amounts of time. Overtime was being factored into estimates and
instead of overtime being a sometimes thing, eventually all projects were
actually taking into account weekends. Nobody was being paid for the extra
time and once new management came in, unless TOIL (time off in lieu) was
agreed upon in advance, you were not given time off at a later date.

I left and while it was hard because I loved the people I worked alongside, I
did it for myself, my career and my family. You are not doing yourself any
favours by staying, so stop asking for advice and make a decision.

------
Reef
Commenters, please note that the author did not say "overtime" or "long
hours".

My advice: start working on a side project which will give you satisfaction
from every half hour of your work. Does not need to be an IT project. You'll
think of something.

~~~
vonmoltke
> The workload is unmanageable and it just never ends.

I'm not sure there is another good way to interpret that statement.

~~~
ModernMan
Reef is actually right. There's not much overtime. Now while that to many may
seem like a great job where there should be no burn out. I can say that it is
still very stressful. The reason being there can just be so many things going
on at once. Projects that should take hours to days end up taking weeks to
months due to just the sheer number of them and the constant barrage of
interruptions. Context switches are expensive. Every time somebody else has
nothing better to do they feel like they should bother you.

------
chrisbennet
First, start working the hours that they actually pay you for.

Take a personal day.

Understand that you have a _business_ relationship with your employer.
Mentally, you have to be ready to tell your employer that "I'm sorry, but I'm
really not in a position to subsidize your business any further."

If you haven't already, contact the colleagues that left and connect with them
(add them to linked-in, etc). Ask them if you can use them as a reference, see
if they have any job leads. Get the contacts of the people you still work with
- before _they_ leave.

Do not waste energy trying to fix the company you work for. You just can't.
Yes it sucks but that is reality.

~~~
ModernMan
I really love this line "I'm sorry, but I'm really not in a position to
subsidize your business any further."

------
jsonmez
Lots of people will tell you to take it easy, to reduce your workload, slow
down, etc.

That's fine and all. Sometimes you need to do that.

But, more often than not, the following advice is more beneficial:

Stop waiting for life to get easier. Stop wishing for things to slow down and
for you not to be so tired and burned out.

Chances are life will get faster and more difficult. Chances are things will
not get easier.

So, instead, focus on getting stronger.

One thing is in your control the other is not.

“Don't wish it was easier wish you were better. Don't wish for less problems
wish for more skills. Don't wish for less challenge wish for more wisdom”

― Jim Rohn

~~~
jsonmez
I'll add one last thing before this gets down-voted into oblivion. You are a
hell of a lot stronger than you think.

The human spirit is indomitable.

Remember that.

~~~
thisGuysAccount
I'll add another:

It doesn't matter where you go, until you change, everything will remain the
same.

edit: For relevant context: if you're thinking about quitting, your
alternatives are 1) give two weeks and leave, for another job or not.

2) stay and say nothing, hope it gets better

3) Risk it. Talk to your boss. Apply for other jobs quietly if you want some
security.

------
edoceo
+1 to the exercise / walking. Has changed my mindset. Way fresher at complex
problem solving. About 20min into a long walk and ideas are just popping!

Also, scale back your time. Communicate this to management: "I just can't do
this anymore". Last time I did that (2005) they said they would start looking
for my replacement. A few months later they were still looking and I had a new
30h/week job+3weeks+healthcare at a bank walking distance from my apt.

Treat yourself correctly and the world will do the same.

------
jacquesm
It would help to know about your location, most things relating to HR are
location dependent. If you're burned out and exhausted I think some sick leave
to begin with would be entirely appropriate, assuming you're going to be paid
while on sick leave. Then, when you've recovered a bit would be a good time to
evaluate your options. When stressed out or tired do not make important
decisions if you do not absolutely have to.

------
jberryman
Sleep! Mindfulness-based meditation is easy to learn and even if you have
trouble focusing at first, it's still helpful for getting in touch with your
stress/anxiety level (so it doesn't creep up on you over months and years next
time). Finally I'm sort of an introvert but I've learned being social is so
important to my happiness and sanity. Anyway, good luck!

------
IkmoIkmo
Pretty much the same answer as 'how do I find a job, I'm unemployed'. I'm sure
you could answer that question more or less.

Let us know if there's any specifics that make your situation unique.

In any case, I'd make a schedule. For example make a plan to quit in two
months. That'll give you some relief as it's something to work towards. Use up
any vacation days you've got left. Tell your boss in a month from now you're
quitting. And save up every penny the next two months you can to build a bit
of a buffer. Try to save up enough to pay rent and food and such for a few
months.

And really, start applying for other jobs. When you do tell your boss you're
quitting, tell him you disagree with the current workload and that you'll be
quitting in 4 weeks unless you can work something out. Perhaps they can
propose a middle ground, if not you can leave.

In general do everything you can to not be dependent on your current job,
meaning: find alternative jobs + build up some savings.

------
jarnix
You should start working less until you feel better and then move on to
another company.

~~~
annythesillicat
I would agree with this. work less. spend time more on yourself. in my case I
look for something new to learn. go to gym more often. and also take it easy
and look for a new job.

------
raverbashing
Hit the brakes. 9 to 5. If your boss has an issue just let him fire you.

------
logn
> and it just never ends

It ends at 5pm. Job searching starts at 5:30pm. Don't wait too long to find
another job or else you'll be desperate and take another bad job or sacrifice
negotiating power.

~~~
ModernMan
I really don't work more than the normal 40-45 hours a week. It's just the
work at work never stops piling in and then it overlaps. Then hearing the
people complaining.

------
kevin_morrill
Kevin the CTO of Mattermark here. A lot of people have had good success using
our product to find cool companies to work at. I'm also happy to help you out
with application / interview tips. Email me if you want a hand
kevin@mattermark.com

~~~
WiTuLo
Wow only $4799/yr to "find cool companies"? Where do I sign up

~~~
thisGuysAccount
I was going to snark and say "monster.com"

Then I went to Mattermark and read about it a bit... could be useful. Maybe a
bit excessive to get more than the free trial for a job search, but, for
investing, it could be useful.

------
ilaksh
If you are able to quit, please post the name of the company here.

------
chovy
start interviewing, taking days off.

