

Apple now has more cash than Microsoft - ksvs
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/25/apple_earnings_profits_and_cash_embarrass_microsoft.html

======
ggrot
The link is an interesting comparison of Apple and Microsoft, but I don't
understand why cash on hand is very meaningful. Cash isn't terribly
profitable, otherwise I as a market player would just keep cash around
directly instead of buying apple or microsoft. Too much cash _can_ mean that
the company is having a hard time finding valuable things to invest that cash
in.

If microsoft wanted to, it could easily raise more cash by issuing more shares
(or stopping the dividend as others have pointed out). The cash comparison is
thus not meaningful.

That said, the comparison of real revenues and profits is tremendously
interesting - Apple is within spitting distance of Microsoft on revenue and
has a similar profit margin. The profit margin is what interests me. Microsoft
has always enjoyed a bigger profit margin as a software company than as a
hardware company. Apple is more of a hybrid, but has still managed to come
away with a high profit margin.

~~~
jhancock
If Apple didn't have large amounts of cash on hand when Jobs came back, Apple
would have died or been swallowed up.

If Sun didn't have massive amounts of cash on hand after the dot com boom, Sun
would have died or been swallowed up.

Cash is King. Especially in hard times ;)

------
jacobscott
This actually lines up reasonably well with market cap -- Apple is at $85B and
Microsoft at $195B. Apple has seen resurgence in growth (75% year over year is
pretty kick ass), but they are much more heavily tied to consumers than
microsoft so it seems logical that the current economic troubles will hit them
harder.

Personally, the only thing I would like more than Apple surpassing Microsoft
as the giant computing behemoth is Ubuntu making good on its goal of
surpassing Apple in usability/UI.

~~~
thras
Ubuntu can't surpass Apple until someone figures out how to teach open source
developers to create good UIs. Or at least get them to stick to standards.

~~~
lhorn
I think a lot of people are confusing "good UIs" with "pretty windows". When
it comes to usability and general quality of the UI, Gnome has surpassed
dumbed-down OSX UI long time ago, they just don't have pretty windows to win
the masses.

I own a Mac and use it daily. I can't stand how poorly everything is made and
how limited I am on a Mac compared to Ubuntu/Gnome. A few obvious examples:

\- Non-resizeable windows (only one corner)

\- Non-maximizale windows (the first lesson I learned on OSX - never click on
a green "+" button: generally you never know what's going to happen)

\- File open dialog doesn't have a edit field for me to type a file name, so I
can't quickly open /etc/whaterver when I need to.

\- Spaces are dysfunctional: applications aren't isolated in their virtual
desktops, all mixed up together in a giant Alt+Tab list

\- Finder is a joke: nearly impossible to use without a mouse and its list of
limitations is well known

\- Poor support for FTP/SFTP

\- Poor keyboard support (users are unable to assign hot keys they want,
generally limited to a pre-defined list), many functions aren't available for
keyboard users (cut/paste files, resize/move windows and many more). Hey, I
can't even get to a specific top-level menu item from a keyboard. That's
something even Windows 3.0 could easily do. Fuck, even most confirmation
dialogs on OSX have keyboard disabled: you're forced to use the mouse to pick
Yes/No/Cancel. Jesus...

\- Poor window/application management. The concept of "every app can be
switched to and everybody shares a menu" doesn't work, and stop pretending
that it does. On my Mac I have only Safari running yet my "Alt-Tab" list is
HUGE: it includes background-running Audim, Skype, Performance Monitor and
Finder - 6 apps total with only one (!) visible window.

\- Mandatory iTunes for everything. Probably the worst application I ever had
to deal with on a daily basis.

I could go on and on forever. For instance I've failed to find a working
solution that allows me to use Spotlight to pull up links I saved on
del.icio.us. Gnome has it built-in.

The main reason I use my Mac is Safari and multi-touch: super-fast browser
coupled with finger gestures for zoom, scroll and page flipping is awesome:
worth tolerating general dumbness and poor usability of Leopard and apps that
are bundled with it.

For prolonged coding sessions I fire up Ubuntu: everything is a keystroke away
there. The only drawbacks are slow&buggy Firefox and the pathetic LCD on my
Thinkpad.

~~~
unalone
I think that some of these things are a matter of personal preference. And I
agree with you on some things and I can see why you think others, but I'd
still like to put in an argument about some of the things that you mention, as
a member of the Loyal Opposition.

 _Non-resizeable windows (only one corner)_

This is something that I found myself really liking: it makes the windows feel
more stable to me. I know that I can move a window by clicking the chrome in
an app, and that that's ALL clicking the chrome does, and I know what corner I
need to use to resize. Going back to Windows, the windows seemed much clunkier
and much less focused for precisely that reason.

 _Non-maximizale windows_

This one seems odd at first, but it fits in with the aesthetic that the window
scheme tries to use, namely: the windows are not the entire experience of the
computer. It encourages more focus on actually manipulating items between
windows when there's no option to stick the window to the sides of the
screens. Frankly, I think that Apple ought to ditch the + button entirely,
since I don't see a point in maximizing at all. I think that a full screen
keyboard shortcut across applications would work much better for when you only
need one application at a time. A few apps have it already; I think Apple
ought to standardize that.

 _File open dialog doesn't have a edit field for me to type a file name, so I
can't quickly open /etc/whaterver when I need to._

That's related to Finder, which I think is absolutely the worst part of the
OS. Rumor has it Finder's being replaced in 10.6; we can only hope.

 _Spaces are dysfunctional: applications aren't isolated in their virtual
desktops, all mixed up together in a giant Alt+Tab list_

What do you mean? You can set applications either to stick to one desktop, or
make it open-ended and move windows where you see fit. Or do you mean that
Spaces _lets_ you move applications that are "stuck" to other windows? In
which case you're right, but when I used Spaces I found it much easier to deal
with when I could quickly navigate around. (I don't see the point of virtual
spaces whatsoever, so perhaps my perspective isn't the most useful here.)

 _Finder is a joke: nearly impossible to use without a mouse and its list of
limitations is well known_

Agreed. It's better on a laptop, since I find that multitouch makes navigation
really simple when you're in the windowpane view (which, by the way, is the
single best view that I've found in any OS), but it still needs a lot of
fixes.

 _Poor keyboard support (users are unable to assign hot keys they want,
generally limited to a pre-defined list), many functions aren't available for
keyboard users (cut/paste files, resize/move windows and many more). Hey, I
can't even get to a specific top-level menu item from a keyboard. That's
something even Windows 3.0 could easily do. Fuck, even most confirmation
dialogs on OSX have keyboard disabled: you're forced to use the mouse to pick
Yes/No/Cancel. Jesus..._

That's because OS X focuses on using a hybrid of keyboard and mouse. I get
where you're coming from, and I think it would be nice to have more focus on
keyboard-only out of the box, but there are plug-ins that fix those problems,
and I've found the hybrid that Apple encourages to be pretty easy to use.

 _Poor window/application management. The concept of "every app can be
switched to and everybody shares a menu" doesn't work, and stop pretending
that it does. On my Mac I have only Safari running yet my "Alt-Tab" list is
HUGE: it includes background-running Audim, Skype, Performance Monitor and
Finder - 6 apps total with only one (!) visible window._

I'm guessing you were using a euphemism, but: what "alt-tab" list? Do you mean
cmd-tab? And you're talking about a difference in window philosophy: Linux and
Windows tie a single visible process to each window. Apple treats windows and
applications differently: windows have their own key command to switch
between. I like it a lot more that way. I like that you get a visible list of
what's running in the background, and that you can quickly get to whatever
process you want with the keyboard. But - as I said - a lot of that is a
matter of difference.

 _I could go on and on forever. For instance I've failed to find a working
solution that allows me to use Spotlight to pull up links I saved on
del.icio.us. Gnome has it built-in._

The fact that Gnome has built-in support for a web application's functioning
is indicative of the philosophy that I don't like: built-in support for
external systems rather than an attempt to rely entirely on internals. I've
never been a fan of del.icio.us, so take that entire opinion as-is. This looks
like it works, though: <http://www.ianhenderson.org/delimport.html>

I can't address some of your things - the only coding I do is web-related, and
Coda has the best FTP support I can think of, but I'm no expert - but there
are different ways to achieve usability. For me, being able to drag a song
from iTunes onto another application is an example of great usability, even
though it's not a power-user sort of shortcut. It's a casual shortcut, and it
makes my day-to-day life a little bit easier. And that's where the gap is
between the Linux crew and the Mac crew, and it's one that I doubt will be
bridged any time soon. But I think that for either side to dismiss the other
as blindsightedness or stupidity is a mistake. Both sides have merits for
different users.

~~~
lhorn
Wow, great feedback, thanks for sharing. I largely agree with you on almost
all accounts, but my point was not "OSX sucks", I was saying that "Gnome/Linux
have a great UI too". For instance in Gnome there is a concept of
"horizontally maximized window" or "vertically maximized window" (both have
super-flexible hot key assignments), so when I am working with an application
that suddenly spits out a lot of information in a window (terminal is a prime
example) I can quickly maximize it vertically and quickly go back. Moreover,
there is a concept of "window groups" that allow me to "merge" several windows
into one and flip it when I need to: great of debugger/code windows or
HTML/Browser or whatever. My point is that OSX simply won't let you do that.

When I'm talking about "virtual desktop isolation", I mean that under Linux,
applications running in different desktops don't mix: Alt-Tab list (or
Command/Tab in OSX) is separate for each desktop, and an application running
in desktop A cannot open a prompt on desktop B (something I see happen
frequently in OSX: Skype may have a contact list in desktop A, but it opens
pop-ups on desktop B, same applies to safari and numerous other apps). Under
Linux each "space" or "virtual desktop" feels like another computer
altogether: I often run up to 5 desktops on Linux with 10-15 apps running in
them, while on OSX it quickly becomes a huge mess: sometimes I hear the sound
of someone having sent me a message via Skype but I can't find the goddamn
window - it can be anywhere and Command-Tab list is useless.

Back to del.icio.us issue: no, Gnome does not have it "built-in" but Gnome has
a very rich system of plug-ins for its desktop search feqture. The community
is quite active and del.icio.us plug-in is bundled as an option with Gnome
itself, along with a huge list of others. This is a prime example of where a
commercial body (Apple Inc) can't compete with the crowd. And no, delimport
does not work: I've tried (along with 3 or 4 other apps).

I am not bashing OSX, in fact I'm typing this words in it right now, all I'm
saying is that when in comes to UI, Linux is not behind at all, in fact I
believe it's ahead of everybody else in some aspects of usability. It's hard
to beat Apple because of their "whole banana" philosophy: MBP+OSX is a great
combination of hardware/software, something that Windows/Linux simply can't
do.

~~~
unalone
I love having discussions like this: I like meeting people that I can talk
with without having it before a flamefest.

That "window groups" seems really interesting, as does the hor/vert
maximization. I don't know if I've ever seen that before. The groups in
particular seems really nice: that would almost serve to do away with apps
like Coda (which I use to program on the Mac, and which advertises a one-
window everything device), at least for the sake of getting things done for
cheap.

The virtual desktop isolation makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the
clarification! I agree: it would be really nice to have an option for
completely separating the spaces from one another. Chalk that up as another
thing I didn't know Gnome could do.

Sorry my del.icio.us program didn't work. What fails with it? I'm curious,
since it advertises indexing directly. You could try importing your bookmarks
as Safari bookmarks, then opening them up like that? Though I don't think
Spotlight handles bookmarks very well. I know Google Bookmarks get indexed,
but handling two bookmarks sites isn't optimal.

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw
I'm running Ubuntu/Gnome right now. One killer feature for me is a particular
keybinding I have set up for the 'Windows' key. If I hold it down then I can
left-click and drag anywhere on a window and it will move with the mouse. If I
hold it and middle-click and drag it resizes the window. And if I hold it and
right-click then the title-bar context menu pops up right at the mouse
pointer. It eliminates seeking or overshooting the titlebar or corners for
window manipulation. I love it.

~~~
unalone
That sounds like a nice little feature.

------
mrdodge
Apple doesn't pay a dividend...

~~~
tsuraan
This brings up something that's been bothering me for a while: how does MS's
dividend make anybody want to buy their stock? IIRC, MS pays a $0.11 dividend
per $22 share (price as of this morning). I'm not very familiar with things
relating to stocks, but that looks like an interest rate of 0.5%. My checking
account does better than that, so why would anybody care at all about a
dividend that is so low?

~~~
kirse
That's a quarterly dividend, so if you automatically re-invest dividends thats
.5% compounded 4x during a year.

If you're investing in stocks, you're usually not thinking that the dividend
will be your greatest return. Dividends usually indicate one of two things -
1) the company is healthy and profitable 2) the company has a massive cash
pile.

In the case of Microsoft it was both, but primarily the mountain of cash they
used to have (>$60bn) that got investors complaining that MS do something with
the cash mountain. MS would easily have more cash than Apple if they didn't
put in the effort to get rid of it over the past 5 years or so.

------
josefresco
MS had decent profits for a quarter that saw the slow selling Vista as their
'big thing' (while Apple has the 3G iPhone to sell). Windows 7 will improve on
Vista's issues, I don't see MS losing it's place (on top) anytime soon.

Also, why are we praising 'cash on hand', cash is only good when you use it.

~~~
thras
I don't believe that Windows 7 will really improve on Vista's issues. Mainly
because the real problems with Vista are either imaginary (cf. Mojave) or
completely out of Microsoft's control (third party applications, drivers).

A fundamental problem with Vista was that switching operating systems is a
pain and users don't like to do it. Further, Apple and Linux now have a lot of
mind share among the technical trendsetters. For Apple and Linux users, it's
not enough to like Apple or Linux, you have to hate Microsoft too.

When Windows 7 comes along, the press will be exactly the same as it was for
Vista: Why switch when your programs already work on the old OS? Why won't it
run on X or Y type ancient hardware? Etc, etc. And the Apple and Linux fans
will make Windows 7 into exactly the same sort of dirty word that Vista is.

Joe Average computer user doesn't choose his next OS based on what he likes,
he does it based on what he hears, and that won't be anything good.

~~~
unalone
_Mainly because the real problems with Vista are either imaginary (cf.
Mojave)_

This is a bullshit argument, and I'd really love people to stop using it.

Mojave showed that people using Vista for short amounts of time in factory-
approve conditions will think that it's "pretty neat." But Vista's always had
the "neat" factor about it. Never as much as OS X, but then, not many people
get a computer based on "neat" factor, despite what fanboys on both sides say
about each other's products.

Where Vista sours is when you use it for a while and notice the little things.
Of course, the security windows - even though you can disable them, that's the
iconic one for Vista. I've had that security window crash my old computer,
too: if your computer is running a lot of stuff, that window sometimes tips
the entire thing over.

The little things bottle up. They build up and tip out. I just came across a
post yesterday on Tumblr that mentioned one: I'd _never_ actively thought
about this feature, I wouldn't have ever thought to diss Vista for it after I
got my Mac, but remembering it, it was awful in a small way.

<http://tumblelog.marco.org/56149922>

And when you've only used Windows, stuff like this is acceptable. It's
commonplace. There is no alternative. But when you use any other OS, you
realize that a lot of things are done much better. Linux has its own problems,
namely drivers, but that was enough to make me hate Windows in no time at all.
OS X is even worse for that, because it's better on an order of magnitude. And
once a bunch of people started using OS X, and Apple started its campaign
actively against Vista, people got very curious, and a lot of people starting
noticing the things about Vista that pissed them off.

~~~
thras
Sorry, but I run Linux, Windows, and OS X. Vista isn't worse than XP in any
meaningful way (better in a few), and I have never run into any problems using
it. OS X is pretty, but there is nothing about it that makes me go "wow!" And
Linux is for people that know way too much about computers (like me,
unfortunately) and who don't value their time enough (again me, apparently).

I think that Apple can do really wonderful things -- my iPhone is miles ahead
of any Windows Mobile phone I've ever owned. On the other hand, the Zune
software simply destroys iTunes in usability and prettiness -- the Zune itself
is a very nice device.

The link that you referred to talks about Windows XP (2004 should have been a
clue) and isn't quite accurate anyway. I think that Tumblr may want to
concentrate on reading dialog boxes a little more carefully.

~~~
unalone
Every day that I use OS X I become more infatuated with it. It isn't perfect,
but it's as close to as I've come using any computer.

With Vista, I'm out of love the minute I see needless chrome on the windows.
The same with the graphical Linux interfaces I've used. There's the first real
biggie. The 1px border design from Apple is one that I absolutely love, and it
makes every other design I've ever seen look stupid and outdated.

The menu bar up top and the dock makes for the second thing. Both of them are
so incredibly utilitarian. You don't get menus cluttering up every window. The
fact that every menu usually complies with HIG and has the exact same keyboard
shortcuts is another absolute wow gee love situation. It shouldn't be, but it
is. I love knowing that CMD-, opens up preferences for every single
application. I love being able to find what I want easily, because the menus
are so standardized. And the dock made me hate the taskbar, because it makes
the taskbar seem so incredibly outdated and useless. OS X doesn't just provide
visuals. It provides a visual interface. Things make logical sense with it:
they attempt to simulate a real physical interaction. Like the one I mentioned
before: when you have a window open, the fact that you can move whatever file
that window represents just by moving the window. Or the ability to move
things to and from the dock, to use the dock as a storage space. Little things
that just make perfect sense.

Vista will _not stop telling me_ to restart my computer. There is no "Fuck
you, I'll install when I'm ready* option. It keeps popping up, and it keeps
coming up as I'm hitting Enter for something else, and it keeps pissing me
off.

The Zune looks pretty, I'll agree. I don't like its scroll mechanism. And what
about the Zune software is better than iTunes? I'm not denying you: I've just
never used the Zune software, and I love iTunes. I'd be curious as to what the
Zune program does better.

~~~
wizlb
So get a theme that has a 1px border. I don't really see a problem here.

Everyday I use OSX I become more infuriated with it. The main reason is
because it's tied to _one_ hardware manufacturer which makes it kinda useless
really especially when that manufacturer doesn't like to give you a whole lot
of choice.

Also, here's something interesting too about your favorite OS. There are no
less than 20 Application Launchers (replacements for Spotlight). It seems that
the dock isn't such a great replacement for the Start menu / task bar combo.
See here:

<http://www.usingmac.com/2008/10/25/mac-application-launchers>

Besides the fact that it's fucking impossible to find anything in the Dock if
you have hundreds of programs installed, you can't easily see what's running
since the only indicator is a very small blue dot.

This is why you simply can't use it to switch programs and I bet you don't.
You probably use Expose. Well, I don't know about you, but when I'm mousing
around a lot it takes me a second to switch back into keyboard mode,
especially if the keyboard shortcut is something stupid like F10, F11 or F12.
On Windows all I do is click on the taskbar item for the program I want. It's
much, much quicker.

The dock is simply a marketing gimmick.

Also, if Vista continually tells you to restart, you're doing it wrong. I have
a Vista box in my living room which has an uptime of about 3 months now since
the last reboot. And there is nothing better than Vista Media Center, it kills
Front Row in so many ways.

~~~
unalone
_So get a theme that has a 1px border. I don't really see a problem here._

The point is that with Apple, I don't have to worry about themes. It's already
set up for me and the experience largely revolves around it.

 _The main reason is because it's tied to _one_ hardware manufacturer which
makes it kinda useless really especially when that manufacturer doesn't like
to give you a whole lot of choice._

What aren't you given a choice about? It's possible to replace the camera, the
keyboard, the mouse, and pretty much any part of the system that you don't
want. You can replace any program that you don't like, too. Though it goes
without saying that I like Apple's restrictive hardware, because it means that
things work without fiddling.

 _Also, here's something interesting too about your favorite OS. There are no
less than 20 Application Launchers (replacements for Spotlight). It seems that
the dock isn't such a great replacement for the Start menu / task bar combo.
See here:_

A lot of them were created before Leopard, in which Spotlight was sped up
immensely. I haven't needed anything beyond Spotlight since 10.5, which was
when I began using a Mac as my main computer. The only exception to that is
Quicksilver, which is more of a function fiddler than it is an app launcher.

 _Besides the fact that it's fucking impossible to find anything in the Dock
if you have hundreds of programs installed, you can't easily see what's
running since the only indicator is a very small blue dot._

That's why you don't put every app you have on the dock. It's a storage place
for apps that you use often. I actually don't keep any programs on the dock: I
only use it to show currently running apps. And the blue dot is pretty high
contrast even when the dock is tiny.

 _This is why you simply can't use it to switch programs and I bet you don't.
You probably use Expose. Well, I don't know about you, but when I'm mousing
around a lot it takes me a second to switch back into keyboard mode,
especially if the keyboard shortcut is something stupid like F10, F11 or F12.
On Windows all I do is click on the taskbar item for the program I want. It's
much, much quicker._

No, because using the mouse for something like app switching is slow and
pointless. I use CMD-tab, followed by CMD-` to select the window. It's much,
much quicker. And it's faster than alt-tab on Windows, especially when I have
a ton of windows open, because selecting the app rather than the window means
I can get immediately to what I want. If I've got 15 Quicktime windows open
and 1 Safari window open, I can tab over quickly. I also have Exposé turned on
to the bottom corner of my window, so it takes a single flick to reveal all my
windows. That's another really nice built-in Mac feature: corner commands.

 _The dock is simply a marketing gimmick._

Hardly. The dock is the center of Apple's user experience, as I said. It's
been that way since it came out with the first version of OS X. It's a storage
spot, a navigation tool, and a launcher. Stacks in particular is a well-loved
addition.

 _Also, if Vista continually tells you to restart, you're doing it wrong. I
have a Vista box in my living room which has an uptime of about 3 months now
since the last reboot._

Every time it installs an update, it constantly prompts a restart. That's a
pain in the ass.

 _And there is nothing better than Vista Media Center, it kills Front Row in
so many ways._

The last time you provoked an argument, I asked you what makes this the case.
You never responded to me. So, tell me now?

Though I recall last time your telling me you weren't going to have this
argument any more. Why not let's drop this lengthy argument before we begin?
The conversations I've had with you have not been pleasant.

~~~
wizlb
"The last time you provoked an argument..."

Gee, nothing like making personal attacks when you've got nothing else to say.
Please tell me, when did I make this personal? I didn't...

Anyway, to answer you question...what does Vista Media Center have that Apple
Front Row doesn't? Well for one, CableCARD. Secondly, more hardware options,
as usual. For instance, a Gyration remote (the best there is, IMO).

Please see this list of many other things, this person says it better than I
have time for:

[http://cybernetnews.com/2008/05/12/cybernotes-apple-front-
ro...](http://cybernetnews.com/2008/05/12/cybernotes-apple-front-row-vs-
windows-media-center/)

------
nickb
If you were SJ, what would you buy with it?

Buying back shares is a waste at this time and SJ doesn't like buybacks. Some
people see Apple buying Adobe. ADBE's market cap is around $12B but to me a
big negative is the amount of overlap between their software suites... lots of
value will be wasted but on the other hand, Apple would have a virtual
monopoly on digital content production. If I were SJ, I'd go after Yahoo. It's
now around $17B and would offer Apple more room to grow and would also give
Google some things to think about as they're now going after Apple's mobile
slice.

~~~
gaius
What would Apple _do_ with Yahoo? Yahoo now is where AOL was in the '90s,
symbolic of everything that's cheesy and lame about the Internets. The last
thing super-cool Air-toting Apple customers want is to be associated with it.

If Apple buys anyone it should be Sun (or what's left of SGI).

~~~
nickb
One word: Distribution.

~~~
gaius
Of what?

~~~
nickb
Music, movies, webapps, everything.

------
Hoff
Dividends are useful to differentiate cash-rich and otherwise undistinguished
stock offerings.

Great mounds of cash allow for some stability and for judicious bargain
shopping and for product upgrades during downturns; for a longer horizon.

------
Kilimanjaro
Once a $500B market cap giant, microsoft is now below $200B

Glory days in the past

~~~
Rexxar
Over evaluated stock during the tech bubble is not my definition of "glory
days in the past".

Microsoft have more competitors now but is also stronger than ever.

