
Introducing Neo900 - seba_dos1
http://neo900.org/
======
captainmuon
I wonder whether this has an open-source* baseband/firmware, and open-source
graphics drivers. If not, it's not better than, say, a Nexus 4, which you can
unlock and put custom software on it (e.g. Ubuntu Phone, I'm sure you could
port Meego/Maemo/whatever it's called nowadays). The Nexus of course has
vastly superior hardware.

If I buy such a tinkerphone as this, I want to be able to play with it at all
levels. For example: Imagine the mobile connection doesn't work, but it still
displays the GSM network's name? So it still transmits some data.... I want to
be able to see where it hangs. E.g. do my packets reach the other station? Do
I get garbled responses, or no responses at all? ... I want to be able to
access the audio stream programmatically, which is not possible on 99% of
android phones. And so on.

Mobile technology is such a black box, due to closed firmware. I wonder what
amazing things will be possible if people can hack their phones' radios.

(* With focus on "I can compile and modify everything myself", don't care too
much about license politics.)

~~~
sspiff
It has a keyboard. That makes it infinitely more interesting to me than a
Nexus 4. I bet a lot of (former) N900 users will agree. While I never used an
N900, I've used phones with and without keyboards over the past few years, and
I'm not settling for a touch-only device.

There's also more and more of the base Android apps that are abandoned in
favour of closed-source, Google branded apps. So there's that as well.

~~~
werkshy
Yes, but it's a 3 row keyboard. I upgraded from the G1 (5 row qwerty) to the
G2 (4 row, numbers-on-the-qwerty-row) and it's next to useless.

As a phone, I need to use the number line a lot. As a computer /terminal, I
need to use letters, numbers & symbols a lot. 3 and 4 row keyboards are bad
for both of these use cases.

If someone makes a decent, interesting 5-row qwerty phone, I will buy it
tomorrow.

~~~
fragmede
> decent, interesting 5-row qwerty phone

If you're in the US and are on a CDMA network, there's the DROID 4/Photon Q
for Verizon and Sprint, respectively.

Outside of that I'm not aware of any recent phones with a keyboard,
unfortunately.

~~~
zokier
Its annoying that QWERTY Androids seem exclusive to the US. I guess Europeans
demand custom layouts, and because of that we get nothing :(

Here is GSMArenas list of QWERTY androids released in 2012-2013

[http://tinyurl.com/qwertyandroids](http://tinyurl.com/qwertyandroids)

edit: interesting that almost all those devices are based on the same MSM8960
SoC

------
programminggeek
It looks thick. I don't know why, but it makes me not at all interested. Also,
what was so special about the N900 and is that relevant in the market today?
I'm genuinely curious, I don't know much about the N900.

~~~
zokier
> Also, what was so special about the N900 and is that relevant in the market
> today?

N900 had:

\- HW keyboard

\- Pixel-accurate touchscreen (with stylus)

\- Desktop-ish hacker/FOSS friendly Linux OS

Essentially N900 was the embodiment of the dreams of what Nokia could have
been if it weren't for EVIL Elop and MS ruining everything, and that is why
the device has small cult following.

There has been occasional HW keyboard equipped Android devices since, but they
have usually been of limited availability, and while Meego lives on as Mer
(and the rest of the family) it afaik is not really usable as daily driver
(yet). And Mer has been adapted to fairly limited number of devices, none
which afaik have HW keyboards (besides N9x0).

~~~
moystard
I don't think the N900 was the embodiment of the dream of what Nokia could
have been without Elop, the N9/N950 were.

Both were beautifully designed phones, with a unique and powerful operating
system: swipe-based interaction, social feed screen, multitask, beautiful
applications, good development environment (Qt).. This was the direction Nokia
should have gone toward..

Edit: typos.

~~~
npsimons
You have to realize the timeframe that N900 was released: 2009. Back then, it
was _way_ ahead of most other smartphones (including iPhone), and had
multitasking to boot. The resolution was touted as "better than DVD". It had a
commandline out of the box, and not some watered down, misplace all the system
files version either. It was basically Debian on a phone, with smooth,
beautiful graphics, a decent package management system, and tons of
possibilities (Rovio ported Angry Birds to it!). Oh, and did I mention it also
had Qt, including Python QT, with IDE options (including emacs) _on the
phone_? Sure, the N9 was pretty, but it had no hardware keyboard, and the N950
doesn't count as you _still_ can't easily get one (you had to be an active
Maemo developer to get one).

~~~
wmf
I bought a N900 and it may have been ahead of the iPhone in tech specs but it
was way behind in the feel of day-to-day usage. True multitasking could drain
the N900's battery in an hour even if the phone was idle. Because the stylus
was included many apps required it, so a lot of time was wasted unholstering
the stylus. The resistive single-touch screen doesn't support gestures. Maemo
didn't support portrait orientation for one-handed usage.

~~~
luxpir
Hand up - still use one as my only phone. It definitely has its flaws, but the
ones you mention have really never been an issue for me, either due to fixes,
updates or workarounds.

I somehow get 1.5-2 days use out of the thing, per charge, despite frequent
multitasking (browser, SMS, notes, ssh etc.) and typically running it with a
slight overclocking to 805mhz. A script switches on airplane mode while I'm
asleep, so that probably helps.

Others have mentioned the screen, but I'm really comfortable reading on it.
The Opera browser makes the peck and hunt game on desktop versions of sites
obsolete. All the fuss about resistive/capacitive differences is beyond me.
It's really quite easy to move (things) about on the screen, and I'm not into
splitting hairs.

Some have mentioned the Psion series in this thread. I have to agree, the 5MX
was a brilliant design for a mobile device. If that keyboard was coupled with
modern, open HW in a similar phone it would be game over. For me at least.

I have been considering buying a folding bluetooth keyboard to type up notes
and posts on the phone, but I think that's pushing it - my main 'creation'
work still happens on the PC, for better or worse.

I don't do a lot on it that you can't do on any other phone, but it does give
me a warm feeling that it's at least open and not phoning home at the end of
the day to update Sauron.

------
simias
Aren't most Android phone pretty open in practice? If you're able to rebuild
your kernel then what's stopping your from tinkering with the hardware or
installing whatever OS you want?

The only closed bits remaining are the firmware blobs for certain IPs but is
it really limiting? How many time did you think "man, I wish I could write a
custom firmware for my GSM chip!".

Not saying that it's not interesting "for the principle" to have completely
open phones but to be brutally honest I'm not ready to use a low resolution
resistive display for the sake of it being open source...

~~~
npsimons
This isn't for you; there, I've said it, and I'll add this: the market is
large enough to accommodate things like this. Some of us like to tinker, all
the way down to the bits in our hardware. Some of us _like_ having a hardware
keyboard, _like_ having emacs in the palm of our hand, with all the power that
implies. And we don't really care about high resolution capacitive displays.

Maybe it's not _your_ ideal "everyday" phone; good for you for realizing that.
I'll leave you to your locked down android (or (shudder) iPhone) on two year
contract; I'd kindly request you treat us tinkerers/hackers in kind and leave
us to our toys.

~~~
simias
Way to be patronizing.

I like to tinker as much as anybody else but this phone doesn't get me very
excited.

Not long ago there was almost no way to get custom code running on your phone.
Now it's getting easier and easier.

Not to mention the various ARM boards you could fit with a GSM module and use
to make a custom open phone of your liking and tinker away.

So basically either I want a good everyday phone and I won't go with that or I
want to play with phone hardware and there are already a lot of ways I could
do that without waiting for this project to deliver.

------
robin_reala
Your €500-700 gets you a replacement motherboard for your existing N900.
Thinking about it, it’s not a bad solution: most people this is aimed at will
already have a N900 they remember fondly. Pity you’ll still be locked to a
resistive touch screen though.

~~~
regularfry
The resistive screen on the N900 is _excellent_. Better than some capacitives
I've used.

~~~
kybernetyk
I on the other hand hated that screen. My N900 was a great device but every
time I had to scroll I cursed the screen.

~~~
pessimizer
Are you sure it was the screen? The early Maemo 5 builds were pretty bad at
scrolling without freezing, then popping forward quickly. The later updates
and CSSU are smooth as silk.

~~~
kybernetyk
Oh, it didn't freeze. It just did emit click events when I put down the finger
to scroll further. :)

------
ekianjo
The Open Pandora 1Ghz has the same hardware, and is already very much open as
well, and has a better keyboard and a lot of software already available. It
can run Android and Slackware, Bodhi linux, Debian and so on, in a pocket size
format. The only difference with the Neo900 is that it's not a phone.

~~~
npsimons
_The only difference with the Neo900 is that it 's not a phone._

And that, right there, can make all the difference. Some of us don't _want_ to
carry a separate phone and pocket computer. Believe it or not, there are still
some places in the world that aren't blanketed with WiFi.

Kudos for posting another awesome open alternative, however (even though it
could have used a link; but Google turns it up right quick).

~~~
ekianjo
[http://www.openpandora.org](http://www.openpandora.org) if anyone else wants
a link :) Note that this page tends to make it look more like a emulator
machine than anything else, but it's really a full mini-Linux computer, that
runs Firefox, LibreOffice and all the famous software you can expect from such
kind of environment.

------
nicholassmith
I still _really_ want a device like this, but married with a Psion. Clamshell,
good keyboard, but with the modern trimmings of a high quality, accurate
touchscreen and persistent 3G access. The Psion's were amazing, and I think a
modern version would make a really, really interesting device.

So this is close, but it needs a movable screen and a more Psion-like
keyboard. Maybe I could hack together though.

~~~
jccalhoun
I would like something like that too. I think there's a (probably small)
market for a device that is about the size of a psion series 5 but perhaps
with a more full size keyboard.

~~~
nicholassmith
Yeah that Psion 5 Series was almost perfect. I do think there would be at
least _some_ market for it, but it's not likely to be a huge one anymore which
is a shame.

------
makmanalp
Interesting, I was hoping for a N9 port of Sailfish OS, which is a way more
powerful phone than this, but maybe I should consider this, since it seems
like an N9 port won't be official:

[http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90761](http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90761)

edit: or maybe it will? www.jollausers.com/2013/10/sdk-update-jolla-won-an-
award/

edit2: ok even more confused now:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr_yQwTUv3s&feature=youtu.be](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr_yQwTUv3s&feature=youtu.be)

~~~
TsiCClawOfLight
@edit 2: IIRC, that's just the launcher and Sailfish SDK, but it's a start.

------
akr
For someone who is still using the N900 as his main phone this is a great
development. Altough the Jolla phone promises an equally open stack it sadly
lacks the harware keyboard.

------
michaelmior
I did some development on the N810 several years ago and I thought it was
great. One of the coolest things was being able to write PyGTK code and run it
seamless both on my desktop and the device.

------
TeamMCS
If I could get a product at the end of it this would be fantastic and my ideal
device. I'm glad it's much more achievable than Canonical's approach.

------
bni
I still have my N900 in a drawer, and I have zero interest to use it as a
phone/pocket computer anymore. I really would like if it was possible to
install Debian on it, and use it as a small headless network server. I
remember this used to be possible to do in a very convoluted way, and only
install to SD card.

What is the best option for doing this today, is there an up to date guide
somewhere?

------
tromp
I stopped reading at "3.5" TFT, 800x480, resistive"

~~~
regularfry
Why?

~~~
vidarh
My current phone is 4.7", capacitive, with 1280x720. My next phone will likely
be 5" or more, with 1920x1080. The perceived improvement in readability etc.
in going up my current phone was fantastic - I've pretty much stopped using my
tablets because I can now comfortably do so much more on my phone.

Using a phone that small with a resolution that horrible would be like being
forced to wear glasses with mud smeared all over them. And have to pay extra
for the privilege.

~~~
ekianjo
What an exaggeration. I have a device with the same resolution 800*480 as well
as a Galaxy S3 with much higher pixel per inch resolution, and honestly I
don't see much difference and both are very comfortable to use. That's
marketing effect at work.

~~~
zokier
Especially with such a small display. 800x480 at 3.5" screen is 266 PPI, the
parents 720p at 4.7" is 312 PPI, only 17% more.

~~~
vidarh
It's not just the PPI, it's also the display size that makes a major
difference in readability - being able to comfortably use bigger _and_ crisper
text and still have a decent amount of content on screen.

I didn't believe it'd matter much either, until I got my higher res phone a
year ago. Now I can't stand a smaller, lower res screen. I recently got a
800x480 ZTE Open as well, and it reconfirmed just how much difference it makes
- the latter is just awful to read on.

------
jimktrains2
So nice:-D I don't mind the (perceived) thickness and a hot swap battery is
just awesome:)

Now all it needs is a OTA TV tuner :-p

------
sn
I used to be a rabid fan of the n900 but after nokia died, when the n900 broke
I switched away.

Samsung's android-based relay 4g is fantastic hardware, much better than the
n900 all around. The keyboard is 5 rows and has a very nice feel. It would be
much better to port a fully open source distribution to this than to try to
refresh the n900.

------
stuaxo
Almost comflicted .. still going to wait for Jolla Sailfish .. I never owned
an N900 (though I did covet one).

------
darrhiggs
Neo?
[http://www.gizchina.com/2013/09/02/neo-n003-review/](http://www.gizchina.com/2013/09/02/neo-n003-review/)

Is this the same company, or just a coincidence?

~~~
zokier
Most likely just a coincidence. "Neo" is quite common nomenclature. OpenMoko
has been using Neo name for quite a while, Neo1973 was released in 2007.

~~~
seba_dos1
I was the one who came up with the "Neo900" name and I can say that the
inspiration was from Neo1973 and Neo Freerunner names. As OpenPhoenux,
Neo900's umbrella project, has Openmoko roots, and given that "neo" means
"new", it seemed pretty natural to name the "new N900" as "Neo900".

------
macco
The basic idea is great, but the touchdisplay is shitty. I have a n900.
Unfortunately Nokia abanded meamo.

It will be very tough to create a market and develop hardware. Hardware
development is simply so expensive.

------
codezero
I really can't adjust to keyboards that have the keys in each row perfectly
aligned. I know it's not used the same as a full sized keyboard, but it still
always drives me mad.

------
ryanmcdonough
I like the phone, curious though, were there no new phones they could have
taken the photo of? That one looks so scuffed, as though it has been in
someones pocket for months.

------
kabouseng
The hardware and software being open source, will other companies be able to
take the design and produce their own (closed or open) products based on this
product?

------
swah
I never developed for the Android. Is Android a good platform for
tinkering/hacking? Maybe its already too mature? No low-hanging fruits?

------
weavie
Any indication of how much one of these might cost?

~~~
stroebjo
"According to current estimations, the cost of motherboard should be somewhere
between 500 and 700 EUR. Complete device will cost 100-150 EUR more, depending
on prices and availability of N900 spare parts. Those prices are just early
estimations and are subject to change" \-
[http://neo900.org/faq#cost](http://neo900.org/faq#cost)

------
atmosx
If MAEMO consortium is run by Nokia and Nokia is owned my MS. What are the
chances to get a decent product out of this?

~~~
seba_dos1
Maemo is run by community, Nokia abbandoned it completely some time ago.

------
chainsawbike
reading these comments is quite amusing, something important to note:

this device is in all probability not targeted at you, infact on there website
they state that they are only expecting to make ~200 devices

this _is_ _unquestionably_ a small niche marked device aimed directly at the
people who want the rare, unusual specs this device has

i am one of them

------
jpswade
This looks like an attempt to preserve, rather than innovate.

Even if this does actually get legs, what's next?

------
methodin
How would one provide a nice, consistent UI in an FOSS project such as this?

------
anoncow
They are providing motherboard replacements for existing n900s too.

------
msh
The hardware sounds crazy slow for a modern phone. 800 mhz arm a8.

------
mkkmnihas
hi NEO.... whats about ur BATTERY timing ;) i want +minimum+ whole day with
doing lots o work on it

------
glabifrons
A lot of the negative comments I see in this discussion are about the slow to
respond UI, battery life, and the lack of a "retina display" level of pixel
density.

The slow UI problem was licked some time ago by the Thumb2 project (porting a
huge portion of the OS & apps to the more compact Thumb2 architecture), which
freed up an amazing amount of RAM. The slow UI problem, you see, was cause by
swapping (to flash). I switched to the Thumb2 CSSU some time ago and it's
nothing short of astonishing. The difference is much bigger than when I
overclocked my 600MHz N900 to 1050MHz (that didn't do much for the UI, but it
did eat the battery faster and make it run hot). As a nice side benefit, the
lack of flash-burning (swapping) resulted in ~3x battery life.

The pixel density of the device is actually _too high_ for me (my eyes are too
old). My N800 (and 770) display had the same resolution at 4.3" instead of
3.5", and I can still read small fonts on it fine. The N900, on the other
hand, is barely usable as a computer anymore (remember, Debian based OS - real
xterms). I'd like to someone over 40 try and read an xterm on a 5" 1080p
display without bifocals.

The Neo900 project handily solves the 1st problem in hardware... one of the
biggest problems this device had wasn't the CPU, it was the 256MB of RAM (it
needed ~320MB to run efficiently - my rough guess based on the difference the
Thumb project made).

Unfortunately, the screen density issue is (obviously) not addressed by a
motherboard replacement... and the price is sadly too high for me to afford.

As to the "why?" questions about the device:

Most open phone OS I've seen on any commercial phone (I'm not talking about a
limited hacker-marketed Neo1973 here). I can get root on the device without
breaking any laws or EULA anywhere... as it's not restricted from the owner. I
can modify how the device works easily (many functions are event-triggered via
D-Bus, which opens amazing possibilities). A minor, but very useful example is
the remapping of the camera button (when the lens cover is closed) to bring up
the application menu for quicker multitasking). It goes on and on.

The most open phone device I've seen (same disclaimer as above) with the
ability to run numerous OSes, multi-booting between them: Fremantle (stock
OS), Mer, MeeGo, Tizen, Debian, Ubuntu, Android, possibly more (yes, I know
#2, #3, & #4 are related, just as Debian and Ubuntu are).

FM Receiver (yeah, I know)

FM Transmitter... turn any car radio instantly into a speakerphone, or play
any music on your built-in 32GB of storage (or 64GB of microsdxc) through your
stereo, amp up your games, etc.

TV-out... play games on your TV.

IR transmitter... a really versatile universal remote. ;^)

Did I mention 32GB of built in storage and a microSD slot that can use sdxc
cards as well as sdhc? Remember, this is a device released in 2009!

USB-OTG... use wired ethernet(!), optical drives, joysticks, USB-sticks, etc.
(anything over ~100ma requires a powered hub as the device won't supply more)

Resistive touchscreen with a stylus. Yes, I consider this a plus as I find it
absurd to try and click on a small cluster of pixels with a finger that covers
tens of thousands of them. My finger is fine for dialing, but outside of that,
I want accuracy. I'd much rather type with a stylus on my old N800 (pre-N900)
than with my fingers on my HP TouchPad (~10" capacitive touchscreen).

Camera with Carl Zeiss Tessar optics and a sliding cover. While the stock
software could only record 480p video, a modified library can be installed
that allows 720p video recording (uses a mild DSP overclock, IIRC). The fact
that this sort of modification is possible without the assistance of the
manufacturer is a testament to this device's versatility.

Video calling (more on that below)

Deep integration of communications via plugins (highly expandable). Want to IM
someone? No need to dig for the right app for their choice of IM providers,
just IM them - all protocols are handled by the same UI (even IRC!). Take a
picture, share it via whatever sharing service you wish (using the same camera
UI), from Facebook to Twitter to many, many others (I never used this feature,
but always thought the way it was integrated was impressive and elegant). Want
to call someone? It doesn't matter if you're calling using VoIP, Yahoo-IM-
voice, POTS, Google Talk, Skype, etc... you used the same phone UI to call
them. Deep integration, done extremely well.

OK keyboard (not nearly as nice as the ol' SideKick II, but I've found nothing
that compares to that keyboard).

For its day, it was pretty powerful. The closest device Apple produced was the
iPhone 3GS (same CPU, very close to the same 3D GPU).

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N900](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N900)

Edit: Clarification of calling integration.

------
jlebrech
nokia announced the n920 before they release the n900. Who does that?

~~~
zokier
No, they didn't. I don't think Nokia ever announced a "N920".

~~~
sirkneeland
Maybe he/she is confusing with Lumia 920 with N-series phones? AFAIK there has
never been a N920. There was the N9 but that was it...

...unfortunately.

------
lead99
No Bitcoin donations?

------
streetnigga
Hot-swappable battery. Hot damn.

A portable computer that can be on an extended length of time with practical
wire-free ability would be swift. No "where is the closest USB port/wall
socket."

------
nezza-_-
Likely relevant for people who are thinking about investing/buying: The
(resistive) touchscreen of the N900 is not capable of multitouch.

