
The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking - artsandsci
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-american-farmers-are-hacking-their-tractors-with-ukrainian-firmware
======
vvanders
> Kluthe, for example, uses pig manure to power his tractor, which requires
> engine modifications that would likely violate John Deere's terms of service
> on newer machines.

> "I take the hog waste and run it through an anaerobic digester and I've
> learned to compress the methane," he said. "I run an 80 percent methane in
> my Chevy Diesel Pickup and I run 90 percent methane in my tractor. And they
> both purr. I take a lot of pride in working on my equipment."

There's also a chance that this violates EPA laws around Tier IV emissions.
Totally sympathize with not being able to repair existing equipment but I
think it's important to separate it from things that can have emission
implications(much in the same way you can't go dumping tons of RF everywhere
over protected spectrum on your router).

That said I wonder if Case IH/Claas/etc has similar agreements.

~~~
hwillis
Great point. This isn't like biodiesel or ethanol, where the co2 would end up
in the air anyway. A methane generator actively creates a carbon form that is
significantly worse for the environment.

~~~
fastbeef
No. This process is 100% carbon neutral. It recycles the carbon already in the
pig manure as opposed to natural gas which is a fossil fuel and adds to the
carbon cycle.

~~~
hwillis
Any lost methane is significantly worse than the equivalent amount of CO2.
Even though it's carbon neutral, the intermediate step converts it to a much
more potent greenhouse gas that is very easy to lose to atmosphere. Without a
digester, the biomass will be converted to co2 instead. Energy that could have
been stored as methane is converted to heat. The best case scenario is to skip
biology entirely and throw it into the incinerator, where it can be used to
produce heat for power and almost only co2, skipping over methane entirely.

Done right, a digester extracts a little bit more chemical energy from biomass
that simply leaving it on the ground. Done wrong it weaponizes the carbon.

~~~
andygates
"Any lost methane is significantly worse than the equivalent amount of CO2."

...except that methane doesn't persist anything like as long as CO2, so while
it's mean and pointy upfront, it's out of the environment faster. This is
pretty basic climate science that routinely gets misrepresented by the denier
industry, which is why I'm bothering to pick this nit.

------
bougiefever
Farmers are an independent group. They are used to relying on their own skills
and hard work to make a living, and they are not going to tolerate this. I
think it is an overreach for John Deere and other manufacturers to control
what I do with my (my!) devices. I really hope this law gets passed to prevent
companies from doing this. Farmers can really help, because everyone knows we
depend on them for our food, so anything that messes with them, messes with
all of us. I think they picked a fight with the wrong people.

~~~
kelvin0
I think you are right, however it kinda seems they already put up with a lot
more from companies selling them their 'patented' seeds and the constraints
that come with those seeds.

I once saw a doc mentioning a farmer that got 'fined' by a seed company
because he had some seeds he did not pay for in his crop, these few plants
that grew because the neighboring farmer was using them and the wind blew some
on the side of his lot. Also, they are no longer allowed to stock up on the
seeds, they need to renew their stock... Has anyone seen this also?

~~~
secfirstmd
Yeah that sounds familiar. I think it was a documentary about Monsanto. Can't
remember the exact name, might have been a BBC program?

~~~
09bjb
You're probably remembering "Food, Inc."

------
dirkg
This sort of thing is becoming the norm, and will become the norm with IoT.
When every device is connected and has a computer, it can and will have the
ability to be locked down, intercepted and monitored remotely.

People don't know or care about privacy, that's been amply proven, they just
want rhetoric.

This is basically lending equipment while paying full price. We've gotten used
to it with software, phones etc. Its absolutely ridiculous they have to sign
agreements that exempt the company from any wrongdoing, and aren't allowed to
perform basic repairs.

~~~
michaelbuckbee
What you are (accurately) describing is the high end of the IoT space. The low
end is almost equally disconcerting but in the other direction: no updates, no
responsibility and wildly vulnerable to attack.

~~~
cmdrfred
I find it cost effective to simply create a 2nd vlan at home for IOT use. It
has no gateway for internet access and I can only access it from local devices
or over my VPN. This way I can use inexpensive devices without the worry.

~~~
mathgeek
> I find it cost effective to simply create a 2nd vlan at home for IOT use

How do you find that this meshes with devices that require Internet access to
function?

~~~
cmdrfred
I use it currently for security cameras as well as some lighting fixtures and
electrical sockets. For the lighting and electrical I use zwave products and
VM on my home server with a USB zwave dongle as the controller. This won't
work for a product that has a "cloud" access requirement but it works fine for
my purpose. I wouldn't buy a security camera that uploaded images of what I'm
up to in my home to anyplace, nor would I use lights that required a AWS
instance to be up to turn on. It takes some research before buying to know its
going to work but Amazon's returns department has been good to me when the
description was unclear. Its much more work than you can expect the average
consumer to put in but at this point in my career my money is worth more than
my time.

------
delhanty
John Deere (and Tesla too) are trying to have their cake and eat it too.

If they want to license their technology then they should not be pretending
that one "owns" the tractor/car when one "buys" it.

If they were honest then they would be leasing instead of selling.

That might work for Tesla. It would be harder for John Deere though.

------
nextweek2
I have a friend that services and repairs combine harvesters for a living. He
tells me that he rarely has to do any welding or heavy lifting any more
because the reliability and mechanics of the machines have become very
reliable.

He's spends most of his time diagnosing on-board electronics. Which he says is
the root of the discord with farmers. They think of their tractor like a hoe,
you plonk it in the ground and get going. Where as the modern farm tractor or
combine is actually a complex set of computer systems with literally thousands
of sensors.

Farmers see the manufacturer as trying to extort on-going revenue, whereas
manufacturers are trying to provide a new generation of smart farming. Getting
1 cm precision of sowing and fertiliser spreading is the innovation that the
technology is delivering. The problem is that nobody wants to pay for that
ongoing data processing.

This is going to happen with cars as well. It seems to me that people should
rent/lease rather than buy because of this constant need for updates and
servicing.

~~~
fps
Renting/Leasing doesn't help, because the real cost of failures that can't be
fixed is time. Crops need to be harvested in a small window of time, and if
your tractor is broken due to a software bug that you're not allowed to fix
yourself, and that you're not allowed to hire a third party repair shop that's
"unauthorized" by the manufacturer, and the wait for an authorized repair
service is weeks, you've lost your entire season's revenue. As expensive as
these tractors are, the cost is insignificant compared to the revenue they
generate when they're operating.

------
imroot
This isn't just something that's limited to John Deere tractors -- even though
John Deere is using provisions of the DMCA to 'highly discourage' farmers from
screwing with the internals.

Caterpillar also has a fair share of tractor hacking going on -- with dealers
in China actively encouraging hacking and modifications of their equipment.

The reality is that if you've ever grew up on a farm, this type of thing is
the norm -- smaller farmers don't always have the cash to do costly repairs
and if there's a way to make it work in a non-standard way, a lot of times the
temporary solution becomes the permanent one. Buy a tractor with a smaller
PTO, but, have a larger one available? Cut it out, put the new one on. Diesel
tractor but your family also owns a restaurant? Modify it to run on old oil.

------
chrisbennet
Check this out: [https://industryhack.com/challenges/hack-the-
harvester/](https://industryhack.com/challenges/hack-the-harvester/)

 _" We invite all hackers, designers and forest machine enthusiasts to hack
the harvester. We will take you to a visit to the Ponsse’s manufacturing
factory, show harvesters in action and provide you with different APIs and
data sets from the forest machines and the maintenance process. Now, Ponsse
wants to build a community of tech startups and talented developers with whom
co-operation can be continued."_

~~~
avmich
For the same reasons I think we all could benefit from an open source firmware
on regular cars. I'm still looking into what car manufacturer opens their
codes for computers in the car, but can't find any.

~~~
cakeface
I completely agree. I would really love to be able to examine and update the
code running my car. It seems like opening up car computers is essential to
retaining freedom of transportation. Especially when everything becomes self
driving. After I read about the tunnel paradox I started worrying about the
life and death decisions that my care might make on my behalf. I wonder what
RMS thinks about this?

------
neuromancer2701
Has this hurt John Deere's sales? It is not like they are the only game in
town and the quality of their product has diminished over the last couple of
decades compared to alternatives.

We don't need right to mod legislation we need all companies to know that if
you do this we will not buy your products.

~~~
whalesalad
They are mostly the only game in town. There are a handful of very large
competitors (CLAAS, CASE + New Holland -- which are both Fiat) but the market
is very heavily swayed in the direction of Deere.

Also, at least in the field of telematic connectivity (having your tractor
'online' to sync field operations, harvest data, etc...) Deere is leading the
pack.

~~~
weberc2
Being the market leader isn't the same as having a monopoly. It seems like
you're faulting Deere for out-innovating it's competitors. For what it's
worth, I would like to see John Deere become a more open company.

~~~
whalesalad
I agree completely.

------
Shivetya
Interestingly enough in Nebraska Apple is fighting against the right to repair
law because it covers electronics too

[https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/apple-tells-
lawma...](https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/apple-tells-lawmaker-
that-right-to-repair-iphones-will-turn-nebraska-into-a-mecca-for-hackers)

------
Upvoter33
this is what RMS has been trying to warn us about...

~~~
Arizhel
Yes, but everyone just derides him as a paranoid loon.

Seems like we're getting what we deserve.

------
laurent123456
The hypocrisy of John Deer is amazing. On one hand, they forbid modifying the
software because it "can endanger machine performance" and on the other hand
they accept no responsibility for "crop loss, lost profits, loss of goodwill,
loss of use of equipment... arising from the performance or non-performance of
any aspect of the software".

So what's the point of not hacking their software if the farmers get no
benefit from it, not even the guarantee that John Deer will take
responsibility in case of malfunction.

~~~
nommm-nommm
I don't think it's not so much hypocrisy as much as they want to protect their
reputation.

They can't control what third party software does so they don't want people
loading third party software that negatively effects their products thus
negatively affects their reputation.

I don't agree with it but I can see their angle.

~~~
tripzilch
> I don't think it's not so much hypocrisy as much as they want to protect
> their reputation.

Wanting to protect a reputation that they refuse to back up by actually
providing the guarantees that this reputation represents is exactly the
hypocrisy that is being pointed out here.

Claiming a reputation without actually providing what the reputation is _for_
, is ... well it's basically a lie, isn't it?

As someone said elsewhere in this thread, it would be so much more honest if
they'd just lease these things. All these controls on repairs, custom
software, they make perfect sense for something that is _leased_ , not sold.

------
mr_overalls
The installation of black-market Ukrainian firmware is a potential infosec
nightmare. Imagine what a tempting target this would be for Russian
intelligence services to backdoor! In the event of open conflict with the
United States, they could potentially paralyze a large portion of US
agricultural capacity.

~~~
nkrisc
If the idea occurred to you, I'm sure Russian intelligence has had the idea
too.

------
scotch_drinker
Seems like a great opportunity for Kubota. Or some other tractor company. Or I
guess a "startup" that makes tractors though I wonder what the time to market
on that would be.

~~~
vvanders
If you think the capital costs for Tesla are bad try getting into a smaller
market where tractors start at ~$150k. Kubota has been trying to go upmarket
but it's not something that can be done overnight.

I'd be more curious if some of the other players(NH, Case IH, Claas, etc)
could use this to their advantage. You see similar things in the CUT(Compact
Utility Tractor) segment where LS/Kioti/Mahindra generally offer much more
capabilities/features over Kubota and JD.

~~~
unmole
> Mahindra

I had no idea Mahindraactually had a presence in the US. Can you tell me how
they are generally regarded?

~~~
sglane
>Can you tell me how they are generally regarded?

Below JD/Kubota/NH, above LS/Kioti.

------
thecolorblue
I have generally thought that any black market like this one is a sign of an
opportunity for a better product. Is this universally the case? Are there
black markets where there is not an opportunity for disruption?

~~~
CuddleMuffin
Sometimes black markets are simply a way to get a product cheaper (or free)
but the best way to beat the market is a better product and not lawyers. I
used to be a heavy user of pirated PC games but have stopped completely now
that game developers actively update games for years after their release.
Probably a pain for the developers but the shift has lead to much better
products and gives a strong incentive to legally purchase products without
resorting to "strong arming" your customers.

~~~
M_Grey
I agree strongly with the statement about games, and it's not just about
service. When I was younger, sometimes pirating was the only way to get a
game... it wasn't always easy to find a copy. Music has definitely improved
too, unless you use a pure streaming service at least.

Meanwhile... the BBC will make you seriously consider the merits of piracy.
It's 2017, and some people really haven't figured out that when you back
people into a corner online, they can just pirate their way out of it.

~~~
Lio
I watched my first home BlueRay disc two days ago.

Someone brought it round and I remembered that my PS4 could play them. To do
so it had to connect to the internet. (Tracking/Logging maybe?)

Like the scene in the Sooranos where the wives come round to watch a DVD, it
forced me to sit through those "FBI yada yada even though you don't live in
America" and "personal opinions of the cast blah blah" disclaimers before for
the film would start.

Haven't had to see those since streaming services became available.

Also reminded me that if I'd pirated the film I would have had a better
experience than purchasing the legitimate product.

Streaming services are saving the movie industry from itself.

------
bb101
Incredible. At what point in time did the land of the free become the land of
undisguised fascist corporatism? Does John Deere actually think they are
achieving something positive with their behavior?

First they came for the farmers, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a
farmer.... -- Niemöller

------
hamandcheese
How is this practice even legal? Could auto manafuctirers do the same thing?
I'm sure they discourage aftermarket programming and whatnot, but using DRM to
prevent DIY repairs is bringing things to a whole new level.

~~~
weberc2
Former John Deere employee here. The company isn't being spiteful or doing
this to corner the repair market; they do it to avoid legal liability and
fraudulent warrantee claims. They're an extremely risk-averse company.

EDIT: By the way, I favor owner's rights (my family farms with Deere
equipment, and I think there's tons of mutual advantage in open sourcing
software in this case specifically and in general), but as is often the case,
the "greedy corporate oppressor" narrative is too simple.

~~~
rjmunro
In that case, just write the license contract to say "If you change the
firmware, John Deere accepts no liability". Make people sign that if they want
the unlock key. Presumably John Deere aren't liable for other kinds of misuse
- e.g. if you crash it.

~~~
sglane
It's not that simple. A corollary is with cellphone firmware for the radio.
They have to answer to the FCC. Updating the firmware will let you broadcast
with more wattage, for example. FCC doesn't like that.

JD has to answer to the EPA. See Tier IV.

~~~
Arizhel
Automakers have to answer to the EPA too. That doesn't stop regular joes from
changing their own oil in their garage and buying parts at Autozone. Most cars
are not designed to make it impossible for car owners to do regular
maintenance or simple repair jobs themselves.

~~~
syshum
Doing so would actually be illegal for the Automakers, who tried similar
things in the early days of the Auto Industry and several laws and regulations
were passed to protect consumers for Highway vehicles

It is highly unlikely this will work out very well for JD.

~~~
Arizhel
Yeah, it's called the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975. It doesn't just
apply to cars though, it applies to everything, including farm equipment.

~~~
syshum
That was one, but not the only Regulation passed as a result

Things like ODBII Regulations, which do only Apply to Highyway Vehicles, and
all of the regulations that come out of the USDOT for Highway rated Vehicles.

------
jelliclesfarm
1\. John Deere is right and protecting themselves and trying to be risk
averse.

2\. The farmers are rightfully indignant about being locked out of their own
machines. Farmers are risk averse too.

Never the twain shall meet.

It's the tech and scale that is wrong.

The field of ag isn't suitable because of the nature of work especially during
harvest.

Maybe all smart machines should only be leased out. It is logical but that
would never sit well with farmers because that is trusting someone who doesn't
understand farming.

'Smart farm machinery' isn't useful unless it can be repaired by 'the
cloud'(as it were).

Your life will/can go on without your iPhone. Without farm machinery(800-1000
acres is a 'small farm'), you are toast. The farm is toast. Income is toast.

Although, I wonder how farm insurance treats smart machines.

Smart farming machinery isn't really all that smart. Yet.

------
losteverything
Help me bound things.

# times in a year a Deere requires repair?

My point of reference is my car. I can go several cars and not have to get a
"repair" as long as I trade in about yr 4 or 5.

Is Deere the Yugo of tractors wrt visits to the shop?

~~~
einarfd
The number of hours a normal person puts on his car in a year is minuscule
compared to what a average farmer would put on his tractor. Tractors are made
to be used every day all day for years and years. If you did something similar
with a car, you would quickly wear it out. The tractor we had on my parents
farm when I grew up is still running and used, and it has to be at least 30
years old. It isn't used as much as when I was a kid but it is still in use.
It has broken down a few times during that time, but nothing that couldn't be
fixed. The cars we had at the same time are all worn out scraped a long time
ago. I don't follow what happens in the farm field as much as when I lived on
one, but John Deer is and was one of the popular brands, and afaik. it hasn't
a worse or better reputation than any of the other brands.

------
print_r
I really hope that legislature passes that invalidate these TOSes. Farming is
hard work and they shouldn't make it harder for people already scraping by in
some cases. I think where their TOS makes sense is for corporate farming where
a larger corporate entity has to manage a fleet of these tractors.
Unfortunately, John Deere does not make any distinction on their licensing
based on who is using their product. I think it's time to send John Deere a...
Dear John? :P

------
webbrahmin
The way I see it, if a corporation sells me something it is upto me how I use
it.

~~~
moonbug
Dude, not all sales go to private individuals. Consumer protection laws aren't
going to apply if the purchaser's a business entity.

~~~
awqrre
"Corporations are people, and they have more rights than you."

------
bleair
How likely are the right to repair laws to pass? I'm not familiar with the
GOP's stance on this issue

~~~
Arizhel
Just as a guess, not at all likely. The GOP has always been a big-business
friendly party, and anti-little-guy. They manage to get the "little guys" to
vote for them by spouting socially conservative and religious rhetoric, which
rural, conservative people just love, so they're perfectly happy to vote
against their own economic interests for this.

In a nutshell, if the GOP came out and said, in all seriousness, "Vote for us
and we'll ban abortion, let religious people discriminate against gays, and
eliminate gun laws, but in return we're going to make you all dirt-poor serfs
who have to work in company towns and when you get sick, we're just going to
let you die", they would still get almost all the votes they get now.

------
cyphunk
if there are any farmers or lawyers here... I'm a hardware reverse engineer
based in the EU that would looove to work on a tracktor :)

------
frik
Isn't it crazy that certain new tractors (eg John Deere) and cars (eg Tesla S)
come with dongled software? Just to destroy the reseller and after market,
such evil things got introduced. If one buys a good, it should be his very
own, like the law reads. Though this concerning movement is destroying the
very fundament of owning goods. (Owning avgood is a lot cheaper in the long
run. Also you can buy a good, when you have the money and still continue using
it when you don't, because you own it. You can even sell the good to get some
value of it back - well not anymore if you buy a good a dongled software with
a kill switch - than you might own just a very expensive brick)

------
oliverdamian
We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all machines are created
equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent
& inalienable, among which are the preservation of open source firmware,
operating systems, & the freedom to connect via open standards.

