

Start-Up Teaches Math to Americans, Indian-Style - robg
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/03/indian-math-tutors-math-deficient-americans/

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nazgulnarsil
“For some reason, American kids seem to be willing to put in the work with
athletics, but not put it in with the one subject that’s going to matter more
to their lives than any other activity.”

"for some reason"? I'll tell you the reason: incentives. The kids are learning
by social osmosis that status is gained by athletic achievement, not by
mathematical achievement. This is one of the ways in which popular culture
lies to kids about likely outcomes, which distorts their ability to make
rational decisions about the future.

~~~
miloshh
Yes, part of the problem might be that mathematical achievement is not valued
highly. But it cannot be the full explanation, since math is unpopular across
the world, not just in the US. For example, I'm originally from Eastern
Europe, one of the places where mathematical talent is supposedly valued
highly, but I can tell you it absolutely isn't. I even went to a special
math/programming-oriented high-school, and even there the cool kids were the
ones that didn't seem to care about math at all, but instead had the
looks/fashion/sports abilities.

Also, the comparison between American kids and Indian kids _in the US_ is not
quite fair, since these Indians are a highly biased sample of the true Indian
population.

So the difference must be in something else, too. My personal guess is that
the math in the US schools must be just too "easy". So, if kids everywhere on
average learn about 60% of the math they are taught, they will be better in
countries where the math taught is more advanced.

~~~
FraaJad
Arithmetic is given a lot of importance early in a child's education in India.
Kids learn multiplication tables (upto 10 atleast) even before they start
their first year of school (1st standard).

This is so prevalent that reciting multiplication tables (the higher, the
smarter you are) in front of guests, when you are 4-6, is a very common thing
across all Indian cultures.

Extra math classes, like "Vedic mathematics", which provide shortcuts to
faster arithmetic, are a rage in urban India.

~~~
luckystrike
Sorry, but your examples do not truly reflect the situation out here. (I am
not too sure how much time you have spent in India.)

My take on why an 'average' Indian kid is a little bit better than an
'average' American kid in math, is just because (s)he has done more of it and
with a bit more rigor. Everyone needs to pass a mandatory math exam here (as
part of what we call class Xth board exams), and only after doing that one
gets a choice to pick a stream of subjects of his/her liking (that may or may
not include math).

As everywhere, some kids do have trouble liking/understanding math, but they
do not have much of an option initially and their parents also keep the ante
up, on studies for this particular subject. (Of all the kids who are not able
to clear the Xth board exams, the percentage flunking in math is the highest).
Another reason that helps getting this subject more priority, is that for most
of the better paying professions, it is a must. (Sadly, majors in humanities
mostly have more trouble getting in to top earning bracket).

A similar example is about learning the English language. Kids in India do it
more than kids in China/Japan, and hence do it better on an 'average'.

~~~
FraaJad
I have spent all my life in Bangalore, India and I'm nearing 30.

The Indian culture gives a lot of importance to having good math skills. If
your mom asks you to get something from the neighbouring shop, you better have
your math right. Kids are always taught to count the change and demand the
correct change after a transaction.

So, addition and subtraction have to have on the spot without the help of a
electronic teller. Perhaps that can give an insight into why I insist that the
Indian culture requires you to be sharp with your basic math.

I have alternate story about maximum "fails" in the board exams. A lot of
students dread Hindi (an artificially imposed third language in South India)
and to a lesser extent English.

Yeah, I agree with your premise that good secondary math skills are a result
of ultra-competitive nature of college admissions and job market. But, it
still doesn't take away the fact that a student with average overall score in
India will be better off than an average student in US when it comes to
"usable" mathematics.

~~~
plinkplonk
"A lot of students dread Hindi (an artificially imposed third language in
South India) and to a lesser extent English"

Artificially imposed? Of the four states that make up South India, _one_ state
(Tamil Nadu) considers Hindi "artificially imposed.

Three of the four(Kerala, Karnataka, and Andhra Pradesh) have no problems with
Hindi and don't consider it an "imposition".

Careful with the snap judgments!

~~~
FraaJad
Just because the state syllabus mandates study of Hindi as an essential
requirement to pass high school, it does not make the language welcome in all
parts of south India.

The urban south-Indians learn Hindi, when necessary, by osmosis and from
media.

AFAIK, passing hindi (score > 35/100) is no longer a criterion for getting
one's high school diploma. Thank $deity.

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pchristensen
My response/plug: [http://geekstack.com/blog/indian-math-online-helps-you-
study...](http://geekstack.com/blog/indian-math-online-helps-you-study-like-
its-bangalore/)

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newt0311
So... I spent the first 10 years of my life in India going through its
education system and am currently a mathematics major at Caltech. From my
experience, the Indian education system is heavily geared towards attaining
high _average_ output. The education system in the US is much more laissez-
fair in this regard. It allows students to adjust to their needs and
capabilities. Neither system is perfect. In the Indian system, the
exceptionally smart students get shafted because they are bogged down by the
rigid and usually rote curriculum. For the average person, arithmetic is
sufficient but for an advanced major, giving them problems is crushing (I
speak from personal experience). The complete lack of intellectual stimulus is
very counterproductive. On the other hand, in the US system, a large portion
of the students slack off and fail to use their opportunities. Going through
the US education system has put me years ahead of where I would have been if I
was still in India but along the way, I have seen many students miss out and
just sit on the sidelines. [1]

This startup can be immensely helpful but please, don't see this as a begin
and end all for mathematics education. If a student is capably of grasping the
axiomatic principles of mathematics, such a learning path is infinitely
preferable to the do-lots-of-problems method. [2]

[1] This is pretty much the exact same gripe that I have with programs like
Kumon which give students lots and lots of problems without giving a solid
mathematical foundation for _why_ these problems behave as they do. For more
information, Lockhart's Lament (<http://www.maa.org/devlin/devlin_03_08.html>)
is an excellent essay written by a mathematician on this topic.

[2] This is not to say that an axiomatic mathematics education is for
everybody. For one thing, a student may not be interested or capable of such
an education (just like how I am completely incapable of remembering
anything). However, for students interested in mathematics, it is the way to
go.

~~~
randomwalker
I totally disagree with this! It isn't a fault of the curriculum, it's the
fault of your teachers. I had my entire HS/college education in India. And if
I may say so, I would put myself in the "exceptional" category as well: I was
in the international math olympiad, and rarely scored less than 100% in school
tests.

Anyway, I found the math classes thoroughly enjoyable. The teachers pretty
much let me do whatever I wanted as long as I didn't disrupt the class. I'd
usually be a few chapters ahead, or helping out the kid next to me, or
something like that. Very often, the curriculum was challenging even for me.
We had Fermat's infinite descent in the eighth grade! I distinctly remember
ruler and compass construction problems in my ninth grade that I'd have great
trouble solving even now.

The good thing was, the super-hard parts that I've mentioned were all optional
and were never on the exams. It worked out perfectly -- students who were both
smarter than average and self-motivated would spend most of our time on those
parts. My teachers were happy to answer my questions about that stuff after
class, even though it was irrelevant as far as our grades were concerned.

One teacher in particular was amazing. She rewarded outside-the-box thinking,
and if there was more than one way to solve a problem, she let us present them
all. She acknowledged when she was wrong. Damn, writing this has made me all
nostalgic and want to find her and thank her :-)

One time, I was working through a textbook that was two or three grade levels
ahead. I had a question that she couldn't answer right away. She went home,
did her research, and helped me out the next day. How awesome is that?

We had one horrendously bad teacher. They fired her after two months.

Some other great memories.. we all learned to program in the fifth grade. That
was tons of fun. A computer cost more than a building back then in India :-)
Vector calculus in the ninth grade. And so on.

Of course, everything except math and science was a disaster, but there's no
way there was anything wrong with the math curriculum. I'm quite aware that
90% of my friends at other schools had completely unmotivated teachers, but
again, not a fault of the curriculum.

~~~
luckystrike
I agree with the point that the teachers make a huge difference, especially in
the formative years. (Not only in math, but all subjects).

I distinctly remember a few who made subjects like Sanskrit, Organic
Chemistry, History (that itself is interesting in any case) appeal much more,
and never let the curriculum dictate or slow down the learning process of fast
moving kids.

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thras
When you look at the numbers, math scores in the U.S. are much more influenced
by demographics than by teaching styles.

