
37signals' follow up on "Get Satisfaction, Or Else..." - steamboiler
http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/1661-follow-up-on-get-satisfaction-or-else
======
calambrac
The frustrating thing about this for me is that I liked Get Satisfaction. It's
a really well-done site, for the most part, and it was easy and convenient. I
had never used it deeply, and only for services that were actually using it as
their primary support channel, so I didn't even realize that they had pages
for companies that hadn't signed up with them.

All the GS pages look pretty much identical, save for a few logos. After a
while, you blow past the repeated boilerplate on each page, and you just use
the functionality. I was one of the people who would never have noticed the
small distinctions between official and unofficial; I would have thought any
GS page was sanctioned by the company, because frankly, it never would have
even entered my mind that GS would so brazenly try to unilaterally pose as a
company's support channel.

This is exactly the kind of thing that trademarks are intended to protect
against. I hate to say it, but all the hand-wringing over whether 37s was
being rude by dropping a bomb of a blog post, is kind of silly. It could have
very legitimately been a bomb of a lawsuit.

~~~
jerf
"It could have very legitimately been a bomb of a lawsuit."

I agree, there's a very strong case for a trademark lawsuit. What's more, I
think I can almost guarantee that some other company _will_ file a lawsuit if
Get Satisfaction doesn't clean up their act. And I'd bet on whoever files the
lawsuit, too. This is quite clearly trademark infringement, from my non-
lawyer-but-spent-time-studying-this point of view.

~~~
geebee
Some people actually need to lose, big, in order to gain introspection.

I remember Steven King on NPR talking about the guy who badly injured him in a
car accident. He was frustrated that the courts were lenient, because he said
the guy continued to seem in denial about the connection between his actions
and the damage he had caused. Apparently, this guy had a history of reckless
driving (Steven King had been walking on the side of the road when he was
hit), but he continued to view these accidents as bad luck, circumstance,
things happen, and so forth. When asked what he wanted to see from the courts,
Steven King said he wasn't looking for vengeance, but he wanted to see the guy
placed into a situation where he'd be forced to finally confront his actions
and fully acknowledge his role in the damage he had caused.

Now, obviously GetSatisfaction is not guilty of something as serious as
physical harm. But I still hear the same lack of introspection, the same
denial, that I think Steve King was referring to. They are still calling this
a "learning experience", an "error", something to "discuss and improve on."
Their tone alternates between defensive, accusatory, and chirpy.

This shows a complete lack of introspection and self-awareness. It's alien to
most, but some people require a true legal defeat to develop introspection,
something that strips away every final defense and puts them in a position
where they have no recourse but to truly and deeply acknowledge their
behavior.

As long as 37Signals engages with these folks in a blog vs blog thing, they're
going to see this as a he said, she said, where there are good points to be
made on each side. Personally, I don't get any indication they recognize how
manipulative, deceptive, and wrong their actions really are.

------
pchristensen
I'm impressed with how Jason handled it. GS made some changes that sounded
good enough to me, but after reading this post, I'm firmly on 37signals side.
GetSatisfaction is a good idea but it's presented very deceptively and has the
potential to hurt customers as much as it helps.

~~~
saturdayplace
I wondered why Jason didn't just contact GS directly with his concerns. Even
if his customers might be confused by GS, Jason knows who/what they are and
could of raised his grievances with them directly. Instead he published some
serious accusations on his widely-read blog knowing it'd get a lot of buzz. I
imagine this whole story could've played out a little better if instead of
jumping the gun and shouting 'malice' he'd've taken some extra time to work
things out directly with GS.

~~~
batasrki
I don't agree with anyone who has replied here. The public rant equivalent to
shouting through a megaphone, while 80,000 people who might have their own,
smaller megaphones intently listen.

There was no need for this, unless the private e-mail did not resolve the
problem. Refer back to what Sarah said. The user who had a problem with
37Signals created the initial page. How is this GetSatisfaction's issue and
more importantly, how is it a justification for publicly slamming another
business?

~~~
dschobel
But there absolutely was a need for this public flogging for all the hundreds
of companies who care about their customer relationship who may not be aware
of GS' dubious tactics.

------
sachinag
We have an "official" page on GS. But I am astounded at how good their SEO is:

[dawdle support]:
[http://www.google.com/search?q=dawdle+support&ie=utf-8&#...](http://www.google.com/search?q=dawdle+support&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-
US:official&client=firefox-a)

[dawdle help]:
[http://www.google.com/search?q=dawdle+help&ie=utf-8&...](http://www.google.com/search?q=dawdle+help&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-
US:official&client=firefox-a)

But this is pretty old hat for online retailers:

[dawdle reviews]:
[http://www.google.com/search?q=dawdle+reviews&ie=utf-8&#...](http://www.google.com/search?q=dawdle+reviews&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-
US:official&client=firefox-a)

I totally, totally get why 37signals is upset - but, sadly, what GS is doing
isn't new. I'm envious that Jason has a big enough soapbox to get things
changed; we certainly don't. _That's_ why I'm thrilled he's being as public as
he is.

~~~
trapper
Is it just me or was getsatisfaction nowhere to be seen on those links?

If so, go google!

~~~
mahmud
Yep, google seems to have done its deed.

~~~
sachinag
Wow, you're not kidding. (Now, the Google dance has hurt us negatively, but
wow.)

------
Semiapies
This follow-up by Rundle gives a good dissection of the GS page design. He
doesn't even mention the "Popular products & services from 37signals", where
GS uses 37S's product logos as category links. Nor does he mention the fact
that one of the two bits of GS branding on the page is a "Powered by" icon
that an unfamiliar person would mistake for server software - or a service. Go
to that page, and the word "Unofficial" and a small-print disclaimer are your
only tip-offs that this is a "community".

The bad part of it all is that there's _no_ need or justification at all for
designing a customer support page that looks that official and target-company-
branded _if it isn't_. There's no call for using another company's product
logos as category links. As much as GS supporters laud that company as being a
great bunch of people, I have trouble coming up for an _honest_ purpose for
these details.

I do note that they appear to have pulled down 37S's logo from the heading,
though they've conspicuously left it up for other companies that don't use
their support ( <http://getsatisfaction.com/ups> ).

------
tptacek
Check the comments out. This started because a "very, very angry customer"
yelled at them about their questions not getting answered. Still on the fence
about GS?

------
mhp
Another problem not mentioned is this business model doesn't scale well for
the companies it targets. It isn't just Get Satisfaction's pages you have to
check... it's UserVoice's as well, and I'm sure there are others.

If people have a problem or a feature request and I don't choose to use those
businesses, shouldn't it be the burden of _those_ business (and not me) to
make that clear to my customers if they inadvertantly end up there? Otherwise
I have to sign up with them, or at least check their sites regularly...

~~~
Semiapies
That's the blackmail aspect for this niche, if not properly and ethically
handled. "Hey, we've set up a page to catch unhappy customers. Better pay us
time and/or money or we'll get them _good_ and pissed-off at you."

------
dpnewman
I think the question of "honesty" in business is always more complex than we'd
like it to be. It's amazing how powerful is the pull to make a business model
"work". And very hard to balance that with being conscious of the fairness of
it. I very much like how Jason broke down the various aspects of what
"customer service" can be.

I think this incident is a great reminder, that we have to be incredibly
diligent in balancing the pursuit of our business goals, with creating truly
healthy communication and commercial ecosystems.

~~~
Semiapies
Yes. I think this whole thing has been _valuable_ in terms of discussion,
which is why I'm glad Fried actually took things out into the realm of open,
transparent communication in his first post.

------
quellhorst
I was considering using Get Satisfaction until I found out they would create
pages for companies that hadn't asked for them.

Even if the service is good, I don't support companies that don't match my
values.

------
brm
Some things here still don't jive...

37Signals customer support person (Sarah Hatter) just wrote a comment stating
that they've known about this for a year and that she's been friends with the
founder of GetSatisfaction for a long time. I don't see how that leads to
angry blog post to 80k people... What it really sounds like is Jason was in a
bad mood and now they're doing damage control

------
Semiapies
One nice thing from Thor Muller in the comments:

"Very clear feedback, which we’re grateful for and will take to the drawing
board. And yes, we are as serious as can be about removing all confusion. As
we’re in the midst of significant design effort, we will see changes continue
to hit the site regularly. It should be no surprise that we welcome public
feedback about it as it happens.

My apologies again."

Yes, that's what they should have been saying all along instead of playing the
poor-misunderstood-and-bullied-community-site card. However, they may be
taking matters seriously enough to actually fix their approach.

~~~
shiranaihito
_However, they may be taking matters seriously enough to actually fix their
approach._

Or they may be just throwing up smoke and mirrors. If they stopped doing their
thing in an underhanded way, would they have much of a business left?

------
Jem
I've stayed out this for the most part because neither company are of interest
to me, but Tom's comment on this follow up post is interesting. It's almost as
if 37signals knew about the site, made an attempt at using it and then
couldn't be bothered to continue - instead preferring to wait a while and
cause a little controversy (possibly for their own benefit). That's not to say
that GS were/are in the right, but why wait nearly a year to start a
conversation on this?

~~~
unalone
Do you always follow such a logical path to everything you do? I know I've
gotten in situations where I've reacted to bad things way after it might have
been necessary, because things build up to a bottleneck. And 37signals prides
itself on being a small company where the individual people matter. They
_aren't_ professional in the smooth-and-polished-and-impregnable sense, and
while that leads to some immaturity, it makes their company seem more human.
So I doubt there's conscious scandal-making effort here: they don't strike me
as cynical enough to work like that.

[http://getsatisfaction.com/37signals/topics/customer_service...](http://getsatisfaction.com/37signals/topics/customer_services_sucks_totally_unresponsive)

That's from 10 months ago. The guy's mad, they respond (on GetSatisfaction,
mind you), and the guy gets happier. But they don't keep using GS, because
they do have their own support forum for this. Apparently they got _more_
upset responses over the past year. So the first one wasn't terrible, but when
you keep getting people hating you for poor customer service, eventually you
hit a point where you flip and yell at GS for not providing a good intuitive
solution.

~~~
Jem
I'm a woman, of course I'm not always logical ;)

Seriously though, I personally find that the longer I leave something the less
likely I am to get worked up about it. After a few weeks it's probably gone
from my mind altogether, so yeah, 10 months does seem like a really long time
to wait.

I don't really know that much about 37signals apart from what I've picked up
here on HN, but I believe any company - any person - is capable of spinning a
story for a little drama to bring their company PR. Maybe I'm just a cynic
though :)

~~~
Jem
Oh dear, nobody likes my humour :p

~~~
unalone
For whatever reason, this thread's had a lot of people very quickly downvoted.
Though I've got to say, humor's always hit-and-miss on HN. I think that
because you started your topic off with a joke, it stood out more than the
actual point you were making.

Remember that it wasn't just 10 months for that one thing. From what this
entry said, they got _multiple_ complaints along the line of "They aren't
responding to me on GS so their customer service sucks". That 10-month one was
just the first.

------
gsiener
So do I go to 37signals' website for support on GS now?

------
WebTom
Get Satisfaction should stop creating support pages for companies that HAVE
NOT SIGNED UP .

That is the end of the problem and the ONLY WAY TO GO .

37 Signals isn’t creating Basecamp accounts for companies that have not signed
up, is it?

Get Satisfaction business models is very similar to Yelp = Extortion 2.0

~~~
daleharvey
somewhere around 95% of the 37s fanboys comments I have read in between the
last 3 threads are seemingly oblivious to what get satisfaction actually
provides

1\. there are the small companies who would like and out of the box solution
for their support to save them time / money

2\. there are the large companies that have terribly supported products and
the community generally has to replace them, their official support channels
are usually private (so they only help 1 person), or very heavily moderated to
the point where they are just a pr exercise and of very little use. (remember
creative?)

the idea that companies can ban users from provided the support that they
should rightly be doing themselves is just plain ridiculous

------
bonaldi
The point of Get Satisfaction is to give people a way to corral ignorant and
unresponsive companies into taking action. This a good thing. Concomitant with
doing that, though, is a bit of extra work for responsive companies who are
already good at support.

Fried's demands about unofficial badging and so on would destroy the good that
GS does. If he can emblazon the page with UNOFFICIAL and LOOK HERE FOR
SUPPORT, then what's to stop ShittyCorp from doing the same and pointing
people to their own useless support pages?

To an extent, GS _has_ to subvert the official support pages, otherwise it
doesn't work. Fried's real argument is "this whole business model annoys me",
but instead of just admitting that, he's going on about badges and design.

~~~
dave_au
If GS really highlighted the unofficial part and also linked to official
support pages then companies with good support and / or people who are neutral
on whether the company is ignorant or unresponsive get the check out the
official support forums first and won't be confused about the nature of the GS
page.

People who have already something against the support offered by ShittyCorp
will stick around and use the unofficial support provided on GS - why on earth
would they follow a link that they know would be unhelpful? It's only a
problem if you assume a staggering amount of stupidity on the part of the
target market.

As long as ShittyCorp doesn't have the option of making the GS page
automatically redirect to the useless support pages all is good.

------
jhawk28
The flip side is that if a company is to create a good QA site for an another
company...Wouldn't they want it to be so official looking that the user would
not be able to see the difference?

------
Brushfire
Personally, I'm more on the side of Get Satisfaction on this one. There are
some valid points about how GS is doing things, granted, but Jason at
37Signals seems to have problems with the entire concept of their
business/service. I dont. I think its fantastic.

I think it puts the impetus on companies to either really flush out their
support processes, or to find a vendor that will do it for them.

That said, I think the 'Unofficial' notification does need to be more obvious.

~~~
dougp
They should at least take down the page on request.

~~~
mustpax
Consider the flip-side: how would you feel if Comcast went around filing
crease and desist notices to take down 3rd party customer support sites like
dslreviews?

GS has every right to create a forum where customers can air grievances. They
should add links to the official support forum, and throw in a couple more
"unofficial"s in there as well. But beyond that, they don't have an obligation
to take down the whole forum. That's extreme.

The really sad part is: GS is easy to confuse with 37 signals, because they
are both minimalist and elegant web sites. It's the high polish that adds to
confusion.

GS should go the extra-mile to avoid confusion, but let's not lose our heads
here.

Edit: It's been pointed out that I was using "DMCA request" incorrectly. I
replaced it with "cease and desist."

~~~
mechanical_fish
_filing DMCA requests to take down 3rd party customer support sites_

No, don't confuse the issue. Copyright and trademark are not the same. (And
are distinct from patents and trade secrets, for that matter.)

The DMCA is about _copyright_. None of the posts on GS violate copyright. [1]
And, if one does, a DMCA notice can be used to take it down, but not to take
the whole site down.

This GS incident is (or would be, if and when lawyers enter the picture) a
_trademark_ dispute. GS stands accused of misusing other companies' trademarks
in a way that creates customer confusion: Customers see a trademarked logo and
a trademarked name on the GS pages, and are misled into thinking they are
visiting a site that is officially associated with the trademark holder.

You can say any damn thing about Comcast you want. [2] And I believe you can
even use Comcast's trademarks in the process, so long as you do so for the
purpose of commentary (and not, say, to compete with Comcast in the cable
business), and so long as there isn't evidence that you're misleading people
into thinking that your site is officially associated with Comcast.

P.S. I am not a lawyer. Though sometimes I wish I were. I certainly spend
enough time talking about IP law.

\---

[1] Well, very few, anyway. Obviously anyone _could_ put up posts on GS that
violated copyright.

[2] Well, okay, anything that you honestly believe is _true_. You're not
allowed to defame them.

~~~
mustpax
Thanks for the correction, I fixed the language in my post. But I generally
agree with you: GS should be able to keep a 3rd party support forum for 37
Signals as long it makes it abundantly clear that they are not affiliated with
37 Signals.

------
sscheper
I'm glad Jason stuck to his guns and didn't back down. He's right.

------
batasrki
I don't understand why this is top of HN. Sure, GetSatisfaction screwed up
their text on one of their badges, but that shouldn't have been cause for
Jason to go off on a rant.

Also, I think that GetSatisfaction could have notified 37Signals when the page
got created as per this quote from Sarah: "customer himself pointed me to the
GS page he had created to ask 37signals a question".

However, these are all issues that could have been handled differently, most
notably NOT being aired out to the general public. If Jason Fried thought that
GS has "blackmailed" him, isn't he stooping to their level then by publicly
denouncing their service, thereby essentially blackmailing them into action?
Seriously, let's all be adults.

~~~
mechanical_fish
_I don't understand why this is top of HN._

Because apparently a lot of people need an elementary lesson in trademark law
and the reason it exists.

Of course, you don't have to learn about trademark law _before_ you build your
startup. You could always learn about it _after_ you've constructed and
deployed an automated system for violating it.

~~~
Semiapies
Sadly, quite a few people are having trouble grasping that _critical blog
posts_ are the absolute least of your worries when you break laws and infringe
on others' identities. Or that being nice, smart people running a startup with
some fanboys is not actually a get-out-of-jail card for your misbehavior.

~~~
mechanical_fish
_being nice, smart people running a startup with some fanboys is not actually
a get-out-of-jail card_

Well, let's be charitable. I'm sure a lot of people are in shock. People in
shock say silly and even random things.

Have you ever rooted for a soccer team, or a hockey team, and then watched
them lose a very important game by scoring an own goal in overtime? _I_ have.
You tend to go into shock. You can't necessarily say anything rational, or
even printable, at a moment like that.

It's never fun to watch another startup make a big mistake. [1] It's too easy
to imagine yourself making a similar mistake. We all work with powerful tools
that are capable of turning a small lapse of knowledge, attention, or
judgement into a problem that potentially affects millions of people. The
tools can be great -- they let two people, living on Ramen in a tiny
apartment, make big changes in the world -- but they can also really amplify
your mistakes.

\---

[1] Okay, okay... it's _rarely_ fun.

~~~
Semiapies
"Well, let's be charitable. I'm sure a lot of people are in shock."

Hell, _I_ was shocked. I didn't know GS operated that way. I had only vaguely
heard of them and thought they were a community site, not a company that
engages in the sorts of practices that they've openly admitted.

But shock is only a plausible justification for so long. The group of people
who think the _real_ problem here is that this story became public and people
got unhappy at GS have had plenty of time to think it over.

