
Street-Legal ebikes are underpowered - buovjaga
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/12/26/no-one-gives-a-rats-ass-about-your-street-legal-ebike-build-something-awesome/
======
Johnny555
The problem with fast eBikes is safety -- there's a huge difference in injury
(and survivability) between a 15mph collision and a 30mph collision.

If a collision between an unprotected bicyclist and a stationary object is
similar to that between a car and a pedestrian, the chance of death in a 15mph
(25kph) collision is around 5% and the chance of non-minor injury is 10%. In a
50kph collision, that jumps up to a 50% chance of death and 95% chance of non-
minor injury.

[http://www.safespeed.org.uk/killspeed.html](http://www.safespeed.org.uk/killspeed.html)

So sure, build your 30mph bike if you want to, but understand that it's no
longer a bike, it's a motor vehicle, and should be restricted to licensed
adults and should not be used on bike paths and the rider should probably be
wearing a motorcycle-style helmet. I know there's some debate on the
effectiveness of bicycle helmets at preventing injury in the low-speed
accidents cyclists are usually in, but for motorcyclists, the benefits are
more clear -- a 37% reduction in deaths and 67% reduction in brain injuries.

[http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/motorcycles/fatalityfacts/...](http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/motorcycles/fatalityfacts/motorcycles)

Oh, and make sure that your brakes are able to stop your 1000W+ motor if the
throttle gets stuck wide open.

~~~
throwaway7767
> Oh, and make sure that your brakes are able to stop your 1000W+ motor if the
> throttle gets stuck wide open.

This cannot be stressed enough. The amount of new builds on ebike forums where
people are building essentially electric motorcycles on bicycle frames with no
upgrades to non-drivetrain components is scary.

Even with my 500W motor (illegal here, but would be legal in the states, and
puny compared to the stuff the article's author is talking about), I found
myself wishing the brakes were more responsive. I upgraded the brake pads
which made the ratio of stopping power to acceleration acceptable.

Then after a year of using that, the aluminum stirrup that the brake noodle
slides into bent enough for the noodle to pop out, putting my front brake out
of service. This happened while I was applying braking power during a steep
downhill descent going 35-40km/h, I lost control and fell off the bike. The
stirrup wasn't designed to handle the braking forces I was applying to it with
the new brake pads, so over time it bent outwards and eventually gave way.

Don't neglect your brakes! After this I upgraded to mechanical disc brakes.

EDIT: Regarding "if the throttle gets stuck wide open" \- if you don't have
motor safety cutoffs installed on your brakes, you should do so now. I've had
my PAS controller get into a state where it decided to just apply power even
with no movement on the pedals. Always have a cutoff switch! If you dislike
the chinese ebrakes (and they do suck), there are inline wire sensors you can
install to keep your existing brake handles, and it's also fairly simple to
modify your existing handles with a reed switch.

~~~
phkahler
Don't you guys have regenerative braking via the electric motor? From the
sound of it, the motor controllers out there are rather primitive in this
market. Thoughts?

~~~
Johnny555
There's not a whole lot of energy to recover -- most of the eBike's energy is
spent fighting wind resistance, so there's not much left to recover when
you're slowing to a stop at a stop sign.

Long descents where there is significant energy to recover are not that common
for most riders.

~~~
phkahler
A stop should provide almost as much energy as starting back up again. How
about an e-bike with a fixed gear? You get assist when starting, but pedal
yourself at speed, regen to stop, and perhaps some option to charge the
battery via the pedals that's up to the rider.

The most unusual thing I ever saw in my EV days... We had a full Ford Focus
Electric on a chassis dyno to debug some problems. After several hours of
tuning and data collection we realized the car needed to be charged to get it
back to our own facility. The dyno place had no high power chargers. So we set
the dyno somewhere around 40mph, put the car in drive and left it. With no
foot on the gas it would do a light regeneration at that speed. The strange
part is that we sat around a table to analyze the days data about 5 feet from
the car. We're at a table next to a car tied down and going 40mph and its
almost dead silent charging via regen. Analysis done, car charged, untie it
and off we went ;-)

~~~
Johnny555
Define "almost as much energy". Bike motors aren't super efficient, especially
at low RPM's (like when you're coasting to a stop).

A bike has very little rolling resistance, nearly all of the energy used to
propel the bike on level ground is going toward fighting air resistance. Even
on rolling hills, I rarely use my brakes on the downhill, any regen braking
used on the downhill is just going to increase the energy needed to go up the
next hill. (and due to less than perfect efficiency, you lose energy on both
the regen capture and powering the motor again, so it's a big loss).

So yes, you might recover some small amount of energy used to decelerate the
bike at a stop sign, it's not going to be significant percentage of the total
power requirements, and you're going to be paying a price in dollars,
complexity and weight for this feature.

------
throwaway7767
I suspect noone gives a rat's ass about your illegal ebike either. It's like
the author wrote this article to show how cool he is for flouting the law.

I'm also not really sure what he's arguing for. That manufacturers of complete
ebikes should just sell bikes that can't be ridden legally on the streets?
They'd be sued if they did that. As a DIY builder you can take that chance, as
a business selling to the public you can't. If you disagree with the ebike
restrictions, you should be focusing your efforts on the politicians and
public servants that make those policies.

Also, I'm not sure "ebike" is a good term for what the author is talking
about. It's firmly into e-moped territory and possibly an electric motorcycle.
Which is not to say that bikes more powerful than the legal limit can't
qualify as ebikes, but when you're pushing 2500W through your motor, the
addition of pedaling won't even register because it's such a small fraction of
the total power, so it's really not a bike.

All that said, the US has it really easy when it comes to ebike regulations.
You can go to 750W! That's enough for an e-bike. Over here in europe we're
limited to 250W which really is ridiculously small. I have a 500W motor on my
bike, putting it firmly into illegal territory but it's still definitely a
bike.

~~~
sandworm101
Yes.. If this guy cared he would by an electric motorcycle, with all the extra
regs that entails. What he want is an electric motorcycle that doesnt require
a dot helmet, a license, insurance, and yet is allowed to use bike lanes and
parking. I have little sympathy.

~~~
Spooky23
We'll see what the narrative is when some jackass like this loses everything
he owns when he creams some jogger with his illegal bike and gets sued into
oblivion without insurance.

------
IshKebab
This is idiotic. I've ridden a 500W e-bike and on full power it was easily
powerful enough. Think about it - a 'healthy man' can only maintain 250W for
about an hour [1]. Having the equivalent of three people cycling is more than
enough. There's no situation at safe cycling speeds where you'd need more
power than that.

He maybe have had a point if he had concentrated on the 25 kph (15.5 mph)
speed limit for electric assistance in the EU. That is far too slow.

By the way, technically in the EU there _is_ no power limit. There is a 250W
'continuous' power limit, but 'continuous' is never defined, and Bosch's bikes
go up to 500W for at least 10 minutes.

[1] [http://www.power2max.de/northamerica/wp-
content/uploads/2014...](http://www.power2max.de/northamerica/wp-
content/uploads/2014/01/humanpoweroutput2.jpg)

~~~
Freak_NL
> He maybe have had a point if he had concentrated on the 25 kph (15.5 mph)
> speed limit for electric assistance in the EU. That is far too slow.

Really? It makes a lot of sense to me. In The Netherlands e-bikes are used
mainly by elderly to stay mobile in the face of a weaker body, and sometimes
by commuters riding for longer distances. 25km/h is quite fast for a device
with as little protection as a bicycle, and more than fast enough when riding
in traffic or in an urban area. If you want to go faster and still be able to
avoid traffic, you get a moped with a 45km/h limit (helmet, insurance, and
licence required), or get a racing bicycle (and a good condition) for those
long stretches of road.

~~~
throwaway7767
I think the speed limits would be better enforced in a similar way as car
speed limits are - instead of a limit on the controller, trust the rider to
obey the law and bust people who don't.

A 25km/h speed limit is probably very reasonable in a dutch city. If I'm
riding my bike on a deserted highway in Iceland with 150km between towns,
allowing riders to go to 35-40km/h would make ebikes much more practical.

My main problem with the regulations is how they're all based around what a
bicycle can do, which restricts development of new, innovative use cases for
ebikes. The 250W limit was decided because that's what an average healthy
adult can maintain for a decent amount of time. But why should an ebike be
limited by that? I can get a cargo ebike that can carry 200kg of cargo, but
that 250W motor isn't going to get it up the hill. A speed limit on that kind
of vehicle makes perfect sense, but a 250W power limit seems much too
restrictive.

~~~
Johnny555
Why would you ride a 40km/hr eBike on a deserted highway with 150km between
towns when you could ride a 100km/hr+ electric motorcycle?

If you have to travel long distances, an eBike is probably not the right
vehicle unless you're just out for the ride to enjoy the scenery, and if
that's the case, is 25km/hr really a problem?

~~~
throwaway7767
> Why would you ride a 40km/hr eBike on a deserted highway with 150km between
> towns when you could ride a 100km/hr+ electric motorcycle?

Because I want to? Riding an ebike is a very different experience to riding a
motorcycle (I have my motorcycle license and have owned a motorcycle in the
past). You see more of the land, but sometimes you want to go a bit faster
than 25km/h without going 100km/h. This is sort of like demanding someone
justify their use of a car since we have public transit.

Besides, the law shouldn't be based on "why would you?", it should be based on
solid safety arguments. I can see the validity of those within cities, but not
so much in more rural areas.

~~~
Johnny555
The law isn't there based on "why would you?" it's there based on "Is it safe
to..."

You have a very specific use case, if you can buy a bike that goes 40km/hr on
a deserted road, you'll also be able to use that same 40km/hr bike on crowded
urban bike paths.

If you want a vehicle that goes faster than a bike, there are plenty of
options. The faster vehicles abide by more stringent safety standards and have
restrictions on where they can ride (i.e. you can't ride a motorcycle on a
bike path, but depending on where you are, you might be able to ride a speed
restricted moped there).

~~~
throwaway7767
> You have a very specific use case, if you can buy a bike that goes 40km/hr
> on a deserted road, you'll also be able to use that same 40km/hr bike on
> crowded urban bike paths.

Right, just like people who buy Teslas that can go 200+km/h can take those
cars to the residential street with 15km/h limit and children playing in the
street. We make laws that apply to the operator of the vehicle, instead of
deciding a maximum safe speed for cars of 15km/h and applying a limiter to
every car's engine. That's my whole point - the law should apply to how the
engine is used, same as most every other class of vehicle out there.

------
gammarator
These are literally consecutive sentences:

" _Ebikes in China... got so out of control that many large cities have banned
ebikes (known as ‘silent killers’) from the major roads to cut down on the
massive number of traffic fatalities that happen from people riding ebikes.
Ebikes have the potential to solve most of the traffic problems in many of the
major cities (not to mention global warming), but instead of embracing them in
the US lawmakers shun them entirely. "_

~~~
Zigurd
Is an e-bike ban true? Or is this more "ghost cities" hype? Why would
fatalities be materially different from ordinary bikes? The way drivers behave
toward bikes in China is horrifying. They'll drive inches from a bike, and the
only thing standing athwart mass slaughter is that traffic is as slow as
molasses.

~~~
gambiting
I assume that it's because you can easily maintain 30mph on an E-bike, while
doing so on a normal bike is possible,but requires a good bike and a certain
level of physical fitness. So I would guess that average E-bike accident will
happen at a higher speed than your average bicycle accident.

------
gpm
Sounds to me like he wants an electric motorcycle, not a bike. Maybe he wants
it to look like a bike, but I'm fairly sure there are no laws about making a
motorcycle look like a bike.

Of course it does change the legal regime. He will probably (IANAL) need a
license, lights, insurance, and so on. Those are all required for good reason,
operating a vehicle at that speed is dangerous to those around you.

~~~
Freak_NL
Yeah it looks like he is mostly hung up on a semantic issue. When you strap a
power source to your bicycle that exceeds the power limit for assisted
pedalling technologies, you get into moped or motorcycle territory — legally
speaking. It may look like a bicycle, but manufacturers of e-bikes are
probably not too keen on calling anything that requires a driving licence
and/or insurance an e-bike; it creates confusion and hurts the image they are
trying to build around e-bikes.

He just wants a moped that looks like a bicycle.

------
gravypod
> 750W power limit on all their ebikes

That's quite the limit. That's one hell of a limit. Most people aren't
planning on going 40-60 MPH in a bycicle.

From wikipedia: " _When considering human-powered equipment, a healthy human
can produce about 1.2 hp briefly (see orders of magnitude) and sustain about
0.1 hp indefinitely_ "

A 1HP DC motor (or if you want to get crazy with speed control and all that
jaz you could do a 3 phase system with a PDM from a torq-controlling pedel or
something) is more then enough! Hell we don't even need that. Let's think a .5
HP 1 phase 60Hz motor. This clocks in ~800 watts at continuoious max current
but we'd probably not be doing constant drive on this. But let's say that we
can pay a little more and find a perfect 750W motor for this at .5 HP. That's
a lot of torque given that most people can only sustain .1 HP. This motor
(which is crazily oversized by the way) is rated for .5HP @ 3450RPM. 3450RPM
at the chain is different to the gear ratio at the wheel. The lowest gear
ratio on a bike is about 1.9:1 so our motor would be putting out quite a bit
of thrust and even at the reduced torque you'll be halling ass.

Now this is a super oversized motor but anything that can take 750W
continuious input is some _serious shit_. That's one hell of a motor and to
complain that _that_ is too small? Get a harley and tinker with that man.

[0] - [http://www.ebay.com/itm/MARATHON-1-2HP-AC-
MOTOR-M400095-208V...](http://www.ebay.com/itm/MARATHON-1-2HP-AC-
MOTOR-M400095-208VAC-1PHASE-60HZ-3450RPM-CONTINUOUS-
DUTY-/351072233034?hash=item51bd89264a:g:S4AAAOxyyFhTdOMs)

~~~
HNaTTY
One megahertz is more than enough. That's enough power to compare like three-
thousand integer values per second, which is way more than a human can do.
We've got these guys out there, and they've got 3 gigahertz and more! And
they're not even using them! They're playing Candy Crush for gosh sakes!

These people are wasting energy and these super-powered CPUs are a potential
fire hazard and we need better regulation enforcement now!

If we restricted high-powered CPUs to people with a license and a documented
need, the world would be a safer place for me.

...In all seriousness, 1hp is not serious shit. And motorcycles are
significantly faster and more dangerous.

~~~
gravypod
The difference is that adding MHz will only make the CPU noisy, not make it
unridable. 1HP @ 3k RPM at the shaft is insane.

------
amarka
You lost me at `If you’re going to cheap out, brakes are the first place to
cut corners.`

Cheap brakes + 30mph = a bad time

~~~
wolrah
Depends.

Almost every vehicle, motorized or not, that I've ever driven can lock up the
tires. For a vehicle used for commuting or other non-performance applications
that's basically all that matters. If you can outbrake your tires (or in the
case of a short + high-CG vehicle like a bike, outbrake your ability to keep
the thing from flipping over the front wheel) any more braking ability is
irrelevant.

For those sorts of uses where a single panic stop is the hardest the brakes
will ever work it's basically binary, you either have enough brakes or you
don't, and once you have enough adding more doesn't gain you anything.

Performance applications where you're constantly hard on the brakes, off, then
back on like a car on a race track are where the scale becomes analog. Larger
brakes that are better at dissipating heat will last longer before fading out,
and if good enough will not fade during the expected race session.

tl;dr: Unless you're on a race track or similar there's only "enough brakes"
or "not enough brakes" and no reason to go better.

~~~
amarka
I'm sorry but I just can't agree; brake performance is not binary, brake fade
from continual use is only one factor to consider. How the brakes perform in
different weather/temperature/riding conditions is also critically important.

It would REALLY suck to find out that some cheap brakes that worked great on
the sunny+mildly warm day when you installed them but end up failing miserably
the next day when it's a bit wet and they have a bit of mud on them. Maybe the
city environment I usually commute in has more obstacles than most, but
investing so heavily in your ability to accelerate + maintain high speeds and
then sacrificing braking is an incredibly poor decision.

------
microDude
Just keep them off the single-track (back country trails on public lands).
There is a serious problem going on right now where eBikes are being used by
hiking advocates to ban all Mountain Bikes (ie, normal pedal powered) off the
trails.

Motored powered bikes are already banned on most trail systems (for good
reason).

~~~
analog31
I would go further and say, keep them off dedicated bike lanes and paths.

I'm a regular "utilitarian" cyclist, i.e., I commute by bike year-round, use
it for shopping, getting around town, etc. I live in a locale (Madison WI)
that is regarded as being bike-friendly, with gradually increasing popularity
of cycling. I use bike paths, bike lanes, and low traffic streets, whenever
possible.

At present I'd rather stick with a human powered bike because I really need
the exercise, and I enjoy it, but I encourage friends to give e-bikes a try if
their commutes are not as short as mine or they're not as inclined to deal
with all of the issues -- weather, sweating, etc.

For now, the e-bikes are fairly well behaved on the bike paths. It's only a
matter of time before there are a lot more e-bikes, probably heading towards a
point where we might have to re-think how they are regulated if they get out
of hand in some cities, but for now I'm optimistic that we can coexist.

Keeping the power and speed limits seems prudent. People can decide if they
want the safety of the bike paths, or the convenience of going faster, by
choosing an e-bike or an electric motorcycle.

------
zobzu
dude wants a motor bike he can ride in bike lanes and pedestrian paths.

you can get a 3000w+ motorbike thats electric if you pass a motorbike license
ans drive it on the road.

------
HoyaSaxa
I don't think problem with ebikes is power. Safety becomes a huge issue above
20 MPH both for the rider and bystanders. Instead, ebike adoption seems to be
limited by style, weight, and affordability.

Riide[1] is one company I've seen trying to tackle these problems. It was
started by a fellow Hoya (so I'm biased). I find their unique pricing model to
be very interesting/attractive as a first time eBike owner. Instead of
shelling out thousands of dollars up front, you pay $79 per month for the
bike, unlimited maintenance, insurance, and accessories. After 24 months you
either own the bike outright or opt-in to upgrade to the latest model.

[http://www.riide.com/](http://www.riide.com/)

------
everyone
I dont get ebikes. Surely the extra weight of a motor + battery offsets any
advantages. Whats a more efficient source of work than the human body? I
average about 25kph on my road bike, on extremely hilly/crappy roads out where
I live. I've gone over 70kph on it, but I would very rarely do that as it
would be dangerously fast in most situations. If you cycle in and out to work
every day your performance will increase as you get fitter / build up certain
muscles. Cycling is an elegant, low carbon, solution to commuting + getting
enough exercise.

~~~
jseliger
_I dont get ebikes_

I didn't either, and then I rode one. Now I get it.

Ride one.

~~~
laughfactory
Yep. This. I finally rode one, and then _had_ to get one. Any kind of ebike is
insanely fun, even the hub motor ones. Me and my wife use them for going
almost everywhere when it's not too snowy or icy. My next one will be an
electric fat tire bike. Can't wait!

Riding an ebike beats sitting in a car (in traffic or not) any day of the
week!

Granted, I'm actually happy with being able to go 20-25 mph on mine, but what
I want is just more acceleration so I can get to the max speed faster and
climb hills easier/faster.

~~~
HNaTTY
You me and the author are on the same page. Top speed isn't the issue that the
author is complaining about, and it's not the reason to get more power. It's
about acceleration and hill climbing. That's why he wants more power, and it's
why he hates hub motors big and small. In the author's case, it's so that he
can power a heavy bike with 5.5" wide tires through deep snow. So many people
in this thread don't ride like this, so they imagine 2500 watts powering their
skimpy road bike with 110psi tires. He talks about it in this post:
[https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/12/21/electric-fat-
biking...](https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/12/21/electric-fat-biking-in-
the-woods-is-so-much-fun-i-cant-believe-everyone-isnt-doing-it/)

~~~
laughfactory
Exactly. I'd happily buy another $3000+ ebike with a top speed of 20 mph if it
could get to that speed faster, and maintain it up hills. The hills,
especially, slow me down a lot, and more than I'm happy with.

------
lnanek2
His entire rant seems to boil down to this: " Legally if an ebike in the US
has more than 750W it must be registered and insured as a ‘motor vehicle’ and
have turn signals, mirrors and lights. That’s just not gonna happen with any
of my ebikes. " It's not that what he wants in terms of power isn't available
without building it yourself, it's that it isn't available without safety
features. And maybe it shouldn't be (and I say that as an avid rider with two
bicycles, street and racing, and two scooters, 50cc and 250cc).

------
amiga-workbench
I'm pretty dismayed by the prebuilt bikes available, they are absolutely
extortionate considering the pathetic motors they come with.

I've decided that I'll be buying a reasonable mountain bike frame with disc
breaks and retrofitting one of those 1000W Chinese conversion kits onto it.

I have no interest in riding it at its top speed, I just want the power to get
up anything more than a shallow incline.

~~~
post_break
Which kit are you looking at?

~~~
amiga-workbench
[http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/311702965224](http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/311702965224)

I'm looking at this one.

------
loeg
The author wants an electronic motorcycle, not a bicycle. The important thing
about low-powered bicycles is that they can go where human-powered bicycles do
— multi-use paths, cycle paths, sidewalks (depending on locale) — because
they're not much faster or heavier than human-powered bicycles. Yes, they'll
never keep up with car traffic on roads with high speed limits.

------
pavel_lishin
> _It’s no wonder that no one is buying this crap._

Except something like 90% of the delivery people I see riding around New York.

~~~
vdnkh
What's the battery life on those things? I've literally never seen one being
charged.

~~~
pavel_lishin
I have no idea, but I would strongly suspect that they have two batteries, and
keep one in a charger inside the restaurant. It's not like they're going to
sit outside and wait for it to charge when there's work to be done, right?

------
pmontra
According to [http://www.bicycling.com/racing/tour-de-france/you-
versus-a-...](http://www.bicycling.com/racing/tour-de-france/you-versus-a-
tour-de-france-pro-cyclist/slide/9) (turn off the speakers before clicking)
pro sprinters max out at 1500 W and the average power of a pro on a Tour de
France climb is 400 W. So, what's this need to get 3500 W from an ebike? Maybe
a motor bike would be a better and safer choice.

------
chrischen
For comparison I have a food mixer in my kitchen with a 1 HP motor.

~~~
HNaTTY
You rebel!

------
untangle
The biggest source of cost and weight for an ebike drivetrain is the battery.
The 1KW+ ebikes lauded by the author are fun but they are generally heavy and
range-limited. These power levels might be necessary for the snow/mud/fat-
tired world of the author but IMO are neither necessary nor desirable in the
general leisure/commuting use case. Get on a 250w mid-drive or 500w hub-drive.
You will have a blast.

------
trm42
From the tone of the article, it sounds like the author should buy some enduro
motorcycle and forget ebikes completely. Problem solved, move along.

~~~
laughfactory
I disagree. You like many other commenters are focusing on the speed aspect of
the article. His actually use case is cycling in snow and challenging terrain.
The fact that his ebike CAN go really fast is really a footnote to that
overarching theme. Wanting an ebike we can ride at 20+ mph doesn't make us a
target market for scooters, mopeds, or motorcycles. I for example have no
interest in the above, but love ebikes.

------
nlawalker
TL;DR: "The reality in the US is that if your ebike looks like a bike you can
probably go 30 mph where ever you want and get away with it."

------
joshu
Are any of these parts suitable for non-bicycle uses? Like replacing the
gasoline engine in a gokart?

------
Kadin
Ugh, what a tool.

> I rode that [2600 watt] ebike like a motorcycle right in the middle of the
> lane all around the city. I accelerated much faster than the cars did and
> frankly I got pretty annoyed at how slow the cars really were. Cars clearly
> were annoyed with me when they saw me at a stop light taking up the whole
> lane, but once the light turned green I just left them in the dust. This is
> the way that ebikes were meant to be ridden.

This guy doesn't want an "ebike". What he wants is an ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLE.
What he _built_ is an electric motorcycle. (Or maybe a moped, depending on the
state, but probably it's an electric motorcycle if it is totally ungoverned.)

I'm glad he likes it -- electric motorcycles, and motorcycles generally, are a
lot of fun. Welcome to the club! But let's not pretend that this is some
brand-new invention.

All he's doing is building electric motorcycles and then flouting the
insurance and registration laws that already exist around them. Nobody is
saying that you can't have a 2600W, two-wheeled, electric-powered personal
transportation device. What the law requires, in most states, is that you put
a fucking license plate on it, and pay insurance, and prove you know how to
ride the thing, and generally not act like a dipshit. Which is kind of what
he's doing by riding around on an illegal, unlicensed, probably uninsured
electric motorcycle.

People build motorcycles all the time. It's a cool hobby. Unlike building your
own cars, there aren't a ton of safety regs or crash testing that you have to
do, so it's not too difficult to get into. But just because you build one
around a bicycle frame (not new -- early motorcycles evolved from bicycles!)
doesn't mean you suddenly get to ignore the decades of legal infrastructure
which were created to regulate them.

~~~
mcv
Exactly. Nothing wrong with electric motorcycles, but then you also need
motorcycle brakes, motorcycle stiffness of the frame, motorcycle helmet and
leathers, etc. If you want to ride it like a motorcycle, treat it like a
motorcycle, and make sure that it's a __safe __motorcycle.

Just keep in mind you can't and shouldn't pretend it's a regular bike anymore.
An e-bike isn't really a regular bike anymore, but when limited to bike
speeds, I suppose you can effectively pretend it's a regular bike.

