
Most internet service providers are gone – Sonic has survived and thrived - CaliforniaKarl
https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Most-internet-service-providers-are-gone-Sonic-14188418.php
======
robbiet480
I tried to get Sonic at 100 Grand Avenue in Oakland after they put fliers on
homes and businesses all around saying "We are coming to Oakland with our own
fiber and offering gigabit!" (they have been in Oakland for a long time with
their AT&T DSL product). Turns out, they decided to not install to my building
(254 unit high-rise), most likely due to a, what I believe to be, illegal
exclusive line ownership agreement that my commercial landlords signed with
AT&T.

Thankfully, a recent entrant to the inner Bay Area market, Wave G (which has
roots in Astound, a name those of you with connection to Walnut Creek might
recognize, and RCN) is now providing me symmetric gigabit point to point
internet for $80/month with no caps. Just very glad to finally be rid of
Comcast.

I will say though that I've previously gotten Sonic at business addresses,
both DSL and Fiber, and they have been super great. Glad to see the small guy
winning in such a competitive market as the Bay Area.

~~~
reaperducer
_illegal exclusive line ownership agreement that my commercial landlords
signed with AT &T._

Exclusive, yes. Illegal? Not really. Every apartment building I've lived in
has had an agreement with one provider. They don't want to rip open the walls
for every company that wants to put in a line. And these days with the way
internet providers come and go, I don't blame them.

If you rent, you don't own the building, so you have no say in the matter. If
you own a condo, then you can at least influence the board. If you want more
control over your home's internet service, buy a house.

The only way around it is to go wireless. Back when WiMax was a thing, the
building I lived in had an exclusive deal with AT&T, which could only supply
768k DSL. I got around that by going with ClearWire's WiMax.

~~~
zonidjan
It is, in one sense, illegal. "The NOI provides a history of FCC regulations
in this area, noting that in 2007 and 2008 the commission “prohibited
providers from entering into or enforcing exclusive agreements to provide
services to customers in commercial and residential MTEs.”" \-
[https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/06/exclusive-
broadb...](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/06/exclusive-broadband-
deals-between-isps-and-landlords-face-scrutiny-at-fcc/)

What's not illegal is landlords accepting free services from the ISPs in
exchange for their tacit agreement to not allow any other ISPs in. While, of
course, saying to tenants that "you can choose any provider you want".

"Go buy a condo or a house" is not an option for the vast majority of people
living in apartments. Otherwise, they wouldn't be living in an apartment.

~~~
IntelMiner
I worked at Comcast from 2014-2016

Comcast never explicitly signed contracts barring landlords from allowing
competing services in, mainly to reduce the scope of legal culpability if it
somehow came to such a thing

They would offer very generous (read: free) services to the landlords of
buildings however. Especially in large complexes like the one I lived in
northern Seattle

------
zalthor
Maybe I'm being too picky? Or a maybe I'm just in the minority, bit I don't
really like using Sonic. I mean, their internet works, and customer support is
fine (but I've had as good a service from Comcast too).

What I find annoying from Sonic is their billing process. I dislike that they
foist a random router onto you and charge you $10 a month (and charge you if
you want to return it). I also dislike that they force a landline on you and
charge you another $10 on you. Who in 2019 needs a landline? What I find
somewhat dishonest, is how the sell it. I get that most advertising is not
supposed to reflect reality, but it's sort of strange that you get excited
about ads that say and "1GBPS internet at $40 a month" and only a year later
realize that you're paying $75 a month instead. And that's something that's
public, who knows what else about their business is as deceptive.

I suppose that's why Sonic has survived. I suppose that's the kind of business
you need to run if you want to have a successful ISP.

~~~
reaperducer
_Who in 2019 needs a landline?_

People with house alarms. People with fax machines. People with medical
equipment that sends information to their doctors a couple of times a day.
People who don't trust VOIP providers. People who want to be properly
geolocated when they dial 911. People who want to use a phone when the power
goes out for longer than a cell phone can hold a charge (think hurricane-prone
states).

Here's a good one: People who want to talk on the phone.

I stayed on a remote ranch in New Mexico back in April. The owner was at the
next ranch over, about five miles away. I needed to call her, so I picked up
the phone. A real land line phone. Good Lord, I'd forgotten what a quality
phone call sounds like. It was as if she was right there in the room with me.
No awkward cellular delay. Talking over each other was OK and natural and you
could still understand the other person. It was an absolute delight. I already
have my current place wired with VOIP, but in my next home I'm going to get a
landline.

Landlines may not fit into your lifestyle or mindset, but that doesn't mean
they don't have value.

~~~
lotsofpulp
No landline has sounded anywhere near as good as FaceTime Audio to me.

~~~
adammenges
Personally this has been my experience, too

------
jandrese
I miss the days of competing ISPs. I remember having Speakeasy for my DSL back
in the early 2000s and being impressed at the range of services they offered
and relatively high speeds they offered for less than what Verizon wanted to
charge for a DSL line. Usenet, a shell server, personal webhosting, a POTS
phone bank you could use as a backup when you were on the road.

But the limitations of DSL meant they couldn't compete with FiOS. And since
FiOS didn't have to deal with grandfathered common carrier laws Verizon wasn't
forced to share and they have not. Amazingly, even though the customer service
headaches are incredible, you can get a reasonably fast line for not too much
money (100Mbit for $35/month) on FiOS. Probably because we have some
competition from cable modems. Of course you can't get IPv6 on there, because
Verizon's most advanced network ever doesn't support it.

~~~
gervase
FIOS wasn't actually why that market segment died; it was due to the FCC
decision to re-classify DSL [0]. This was in response to a lawsuit resolved a
few months earlier that did the same for cable internet connections. [1]

By re-classifying both cable and DSL as Title 1, rather than Title 2, that
meant that they were no longer common carriers, and could kick all the
competing ISPs off their network. This is why it seemed that most of the
third-party providers went away nearly overnight.

[0]: [https://www.cnet.com/news/fcc-changes-dsl-
classification/](https://www.cnet.com/news/fcc-changes-dsl-classification/)

[1]" [https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/technology/cable-wins-
int...](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/technology/cable-wins-
internetaccess-ruling.html)

~~~
nym
> The phone companies say that the ruling will free up more of their resources
> to improve their broadband services, although at least one FCC commissioner
> says he will be watching to see if that's really the case.

> ISPs such as EarthLink, which already have a hard time competing on price,
> may still negotiate access contracts with the phone companies but are
> looking for alternative ways to deliver their services.

EarthLink sold the next year to Windstream for $673 million in an all-stock
transaction. [https://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2016/11/dial-...](https://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2016/11/dial-up-pioneer-earthlink-still-exists-and-its-merging-
with-windstream/)

Three years later... Windstream unloads legacy EarthLink internet assets for
$330M [https://www.fiercetelecom.com/telecom/windstream-unloads-
leg...](https://www.fiercetelecom.com/telecom/windstream-unloads-legacy-
earthlink-internet-assets-for-330-million)

~~~
hinkley
And Speakeasy to Covad.

------
rezendi
Very happy Sonic customer here. I just moved from San Francisco to the East
Bay and the process was mostly painless, and when a little glitch did occur,
instead of trying to force me to deal with the existence of their internal
processes, policies, and silos, something I call Conway's Law For Customers,
they just Took Care Of It For Me.

------
Rothnargoth
Sonic customer here, but will try to be neutral. The value proposition was
probably the best selling point, and they rarely raise prices. There is a
certain satisfaction when the odd piece of Comcast advertisement comes by mail
offering 2-3x the price for 1/8 the bandwidth from Sonic. Fiber customers can
return the residential gateway and use their own router, which saves you
$10/month. You have to agree you understand the implications of loosing remote
troubleshooting, but I'm sure HN users are savvy in this department.

Prior to getting symmetrical fiber, I didn't have a clue what all that
bandwidth could be used for, but again the value proposition was icing on the
cake. Years later I still haven't a clue what all of this bandwidth was for.
Imagine a kid on a fieldtrip to a famous chocolate factory imagining swimming
in a chocolate fountain. The fountain is real, but you dip maybe one
strawberry when you get there.

The only customer support call was easily enough to self fix. I just wanted to
know if I had permission to touch the equipment in the outside service panel.

Hopefully, more cities push for municipal broadband. That would be if Comcast
would stop suing to stop it.

~~~
inferiorhuman
_Fiber customers can return the residential gateway and use their own router,
which saves you $10 /month. _

You can return the gigantic Pace multifunction dongle but it'll cost you
$10/mo to do so.

------
__sy__
Just wanted to chime in about how happy with their residential service in SF.
I have their 1Gbps package. With Comcast, this would most often translate to a
real-life asymetric 250mbps download, 50mbps upload speed. With Sonic: I'm
consistently getting SYMMETRIC 900mbps+! It's insane and comes in real-handy
when you're pushing a few gigs of file from your home server to AWS...

Edit: I have cat6 ethernet wired throughout my place.

~~~
ribosometronome
Former Sonic customer here. I caved and moved to the South Bay after doing the
commute for too long and Sonic is honestly what I miss most about the city.

~~~
scottlocklin
Same here. I can't imagine complaining about Sonic. If I had issues, I could
call a freaking human in Mountain View (or whatever), and he'd fix it rather
than asking me to cycle the power on my computer.

------
bane
I worked at an ISP back in the late 90s. We were in the same building as our
backbone provider and they simply drilled a hole in the floor and dropped an
Ethernet cable down it for us to get our connection. We replaced our custom
built dialup racks with something fancier and supported ISDN for the handful
of customers who wanted it. The coming of DSL and cable internet was the
writing on the wall to get out. The owners sold it to a larger ISP during a
frothy period of mergers and acquisitions while the marketplace tidied itself
up.

There used to be dozens of ISPs you could choose from in a big market. Sigh.

------
nominated1
Visits site > Clicks Check Availability > Enters Address Info > Clicks Check
Availability > Google Captcha > Selects Audio (because I've been caught in a
loop too many times) > Clicks Play > Enters Text > Receives "Try Again
Later..." > Closes Tab

There has got to be a better way. I mean Sonic just lost a potential customer
because I won't "Try Again Later".

Ubuntu + Firefox FWIW

~~~
justizin
so you are complaining that sonic uses google captcha, and google captcha did
not work for you today? lol.

~~~
deftnerd
It's a valid critism. They decided to use Google Captcha and it often blocks
'advanced' users. ReCAPTCHA often has problems with Linux, non-chrome, VPN
users, and users that use ad or javascript blockers.

That's the kind of advanced user that appreciates and uses an internet
provider like Sonic.net.

It would be like a mobile phone service provider requiring people to pass a
turing test if they call into the sales line from a mobile phone.

~~~
beatgammit
Why isn't email verification enough for these services? I don't think they
really need to worry about automated services signing up for accounts, so I
wonder why they put anything there at all...

~~~
jrockway
Availability tends to be a closely-guarded secret; they don't want a
competitor typing in every address in the city and then getting an easy list
of customers.

ISPs are way too paranoid about this, though. Simple rate limiting is more
than enough. If someone builds a botnet to check what buildings you're
available in, maps the addresses to the person in charge of IT at every
company in the building, signs the necessary access agreements, digs up the
streets to install fiber, then calls your happy customers and asks them to
switch, ... good luck to them. Meanwhile, an easy-to-use map or availability
checker for potential customers probably has a high probability of getting you
a sale.

~~~
DonHopkins
Back in the early 90's, Metricom used a feature of Xerox PARC's Map Viewer to
overlay the locations of their pole top boxes on an interactive map, so you
could see the coverage of their Ricochet spread spectrum radio network.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricochet_(Internet_service)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricochet_\(Internet_service\))

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_PARC_Map_Viewer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_PARC_Map_Viewer)

------
gravitas
Hopefully of interest to HN readers, Sonic has frequent flyer miles with the
EFF as being one of the best privacy-oriented ISPs around, fighting gag orders
for customer information, offering VPNs, etc. - this article briefly skims
over that, easy to find more info in searches. ( [https://www.eff.org/who-has-
your-back-2017](https://www.eff.org/who-has-your-back-2017) ) Probably one of
the first all-Linux ISPs to boot. (disclaimer: I've had a Sonic account for
just a bit over 24 years, I'm biased)

------
JustSomeNobody
I had Comcast out recently due to intermittent connection issues. The _very_
first thing he said when he saw my SB6141 was that it was not on the approved
list and that it was likely the issue. Of course, he tested the line and found
the real issue ( _their_ line and connector outside). After he left, I looked
it up and my modem _is_ in fact still on their approved list for the 60Mbps
that I pay for.

I seriously dislike the state we are in with all the consolidation of
communication companies. It's just mind blowing that this has been allowed to
happen.

------
butterfi
I have Sonic at home, despite that it is basically AT&T dual bonded DSL and
slower then my old Comcast connection. Its fast enough and I really like
Sonic. Comcast, not so much.

~~~
scurvy
What's the reason to not like Comcast? For me it was Sonic at $90/mo for 3
maybe 4mbps (not a lie), or Comcast at $80 for 300mbps. It's a no-brainer
there.

I'm not doing anything illegal so I don't care about Comcast cracking down on
torrents. The data caps are high enough that I can't hit them in my max-2
simultaneous Netflix streams. Comcast let me buy my own modem instead of using
theirs. The only time I lost Comcast service was when all of San Francisco
lost power.

Comcast is pretty bad/predatory as a cable TV operator. But we're talking
about Internet service, and they're pretty straightforward there.

If you're in SF, can't get Sonic fiber, and really hate Comcast, then you
should look into Monkeybrains.

~~~
awongh
When I lived in SF I had monkeybrains, I was happy with them, and very happy
not to give comcast my money.

~~~
PopeDotNinja
How fast were upload speeds with Monkeybrains?

~~~
scurvy
It depends on your building's setup. We have a gig radio on the roof with
G.Fast inside the building to each unit. I get 200mbps up and down. $35/mo
tough to beat unless you can get Sonic fiber.

------
rladd
I used to be a big support of Sonic for years, but have changed my mind as of
late.

They skipped my block for fiber, and I thought there could be some issue (like
the fact that a Muni electric line runs down it) that might make it impossible
for them to install it. So I asked their tech support if it was going to
someday come, or never come.

Sonic would not give me any information. They wouldn't confirm or deny that
they'd ever be able to install fiber. They said it would probably happen
eventually, but refused to provide even a ballpark figure like "next month,
next year, 2 years, 5 years or 10 years".

I finally got a response saying that there were overloaded utility poles on my
block and the next block, and that was what was preventing them from stringing
fiber. They even sent a map showing which poles were at fault.

So I went to the PUC and worked with them to get the poles replaced, all while
sticking with Sonic's slow and expensive ADSL.

Once the poles were replaced, I went back to Sonic and they still refused to
say if or when they'd be able to install fiber. Finally (several years have
gone by now) someone from the responsible department said that there would
never be fiber on my block because of the Muni electric line. What? That's
what I asked in the 1st place!?!

After that someone else replied and said that they could actually do it on
Muni electric blocks now, but they again refused to give me any semblance of a
timeframe. Finally, someone else at Sonic admitted that it could be a very
long time, perhaps more than 7 years, because "it's as time consuming to do
permitting for a block as it is for a neighborhood" and my block wasn't a
priority.

That's all fine, but if so why didn't they say so in the first place rather
than giving me a run-around for 3 or 4 years? Wait, I think I know the answer:
if they admit that fiber isn't coming any time soon (if at all) people might
go to a competitor for faster service!

Pretty cynical, and not what I'd hope for in an ISP committed to transparency.
But there you have it: as far as I'm concerned, Sonic just isn't as cool as
they seemed.

TL/DR: If Sonic skips your block, they ain't coming back any time soon, if at
all, even if the issue that made them skip is corrected.

~~~
falsedan
> _Wait, I think I know the answer: if they admit that fiber isn 't coming any
> time soon (if at all) people might go to a competitor for faster service!_

It's the opposite: if they say they'll string fiber in 2 years, they get
drowned by anrgy requests for status updates if they slip. It's lose-lose for
them: commiting to a delivery date gets people angry at them if they slip does
to regulatory/admin delays, not commiting to a date gets people fed up and
impatient.

~~~
rladd
What you're saying is the reverse of the situation I'm complaining about.

I'm not saying that they should specify how soon fiber is coming. Yes, then
they'd have a support issue as you describe.

I'm saying that they should admit it when they know that fiber definitely
isn't going to come any time soon at all, so that people can make an informed
decision not to waste their time waiting for it to come.

~~~
falsedan
> _I 'm saying that they should admit it when they know that fiber definitely
> isn't going to come any time soon at all_

I can't speack for Sonic but I feel like they might not know if something is
impossible to deliver in the short term, and the amount of work to give you an
accurate timeframe is non-trivial, so they don't do it. To them, there's
probably no difference between the "we want to do it but we don't know by
when" and "we want to do it but we don't know what's stopping us", since I
guess all their delays are unknown unknowns.

Sounds like you'll be waiting for microtrenching anyway, good luck

------
vinniejames
That's because Sonic is AT&T....

"Sonic will offer the AT&T service under its own brand and with its own
customer service."

[https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/3900026-181/sonic-
partner...](https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/3900026-181/sonic-partners-
with-att-works)

~~~
Drdrdrq
There's a world of difference between _being_ and _partnering with_ AT&T.

------
incomplete
sonic customer here (past through sonic, currently through LMI.net as a
reseller).

they're the best ISP i've ever dealt with, and the fact that they've won a
court case against AT&T to run fiber through oakland and berkeley is just
amazing. their teams are working in my neighborhood now to get this all
installed.

i can't wait for my $50/month gigabit internet, complete w/the best customer
service ever!

~~~
NickInSF
Completely agree. Sonic is a customer service provider that happens to be an
ISP.

I've had their gigabit fiber service in SF for the past two years. The few
times I've had to call and inquire about a service issue, I was able to speak
to someone within a minute of calling. And if you check their forums, you'll
find their CEO responding to questions.

~~~
incomplete
omg omg omg! the sonic cherry picker truck was finishing up the fiber work
right outside my house this morning... talked to the amazingly nice cablemen
and i should have fiber in ~month!

------
rawoke083600
Its really really to hard differentiate yourself as an ISP as most people look
to you as utility and ultimately just look at your price. There are in my
experience (see below) two ways to measure/review an ISP: 1) Their customer
service. 2) Their actual internet product (be it fibre, lte or copper)

Most people get upset,mad and angry when 1(customer service) goes wrong and
thus grade the ISP solely on that. They then move to a "better" (read better
call centre agent) and usually for a less superior product.

Face-it the "Unicorn-ISP" doesn't exist with excellent customer service and
excellent connectivity product.

Fun side-story/plug. I run www.FibreTiger.co.za. South Africa's largest
"Internet Comparison Service". In South Africa we have over 15 fibre networks
(only 3 or 4 really matters) and a little over a 100 registered ISP (only
about 5-7 really matters and we only list about 20. Keep in mind only about
10%-15% of our population have fibre-coverage.

Our biggest problem is most people still don't know how fibre works in our
country. I.e you can only get a package from an ISP with a network you have
coverage for.

I've once be called "unethical" because I told a lady she can ONLY get fibre
from this very specific fibre network in her area. (There was no other fibre
coverage for her). Yet no matter how I explained she thought I was restricting
her choices.

Oh well :)

------
yellowapple
My initial experience with Sonic was kinda abysmal (real annoying to have to
take 4 hours off work only for the tech to never show up), but it's since
proven to be pretty solid (at least for DSL), and even with the tech no-show
it was pretty great to just be able to text them back and get what seemed to
be a response from a real person almost immediately.

------
mooreds
If you are in the Boulder area, Indra's Net is an isp that is still around.
They've diversified, but last I checked still offered some dial up service to
more remote parts of the area.

[https://indras.net/](https://indras.net/)

------
olliej
I'm really looking forward to their fibre rolling out in my neighborhood (for
an entire year now). Last week I saw one of their trucks installing cable on
the street right perpendicular to me.

So close.

------
scarejunba
Sonic Fibre is great. I have the gigabit service and I've never worried about
the cost because I'd pay $100 for it and it's less than that. Comcast was $89
for 200 megabit.

The only problem is that it disconnected during two CS:GO games leaving my
teammates annoyed (mildly) with me.

Also I think it was them who told me about the .org TLD being uncapped and all
that and I appreciate that.

------
ezarowny
I have Sonic's gigabit fiber service and I absolutely love it. I also
appreciate that you can get support via SMS.

------
DaniloDias
There is a good interview with Dane Jasper at about 1:11:15, where he talks
about this history of Sonic.net.

[https://youtu.be/hoxhj4zq0DE](https://youtu.be/hoxhj4zq0DE)

------
scelerat
Sonic Fiber is available in my neighborhood two blocks away in every
direction. Just not my block. :-( Still switched because I was so sick of
Comcast.

------
rocky1138
Do any ISPs still offer shell accounts?

~~~
dredmorbius
Here's one that does ;-)

[https://www.sonic.com/shell-access](https://www.sonic.com/shell-access)

~~~
proverbialbunny
Does anyone have experience with the usenet access it says it provides? I
can't find any information on google.

~~~
chipotle_coyote
When I last tried a few years ago, I could just point a news reader at
news.sonic.net and it worked. I can't test it now because I'm no longer a
Sonic customer. (I love many things about them, but where I live in Santa
Clara, they could never offer any service faster than DSL, and I finally gave
in and switched to Comcast.)

------
simonebrunozzi
I use Monkeybrains in SF. Decent service.

------
gruglife
Please Sonic, come to Ingleside Terraces!!!

