
Why did a humpback whale save a seal's life? (2016) - mnem
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/07/why-did-humpback-whale-just-save-seals-life
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rossdavidh
So, as in many cases when scientists (or science writers) discuss the
motivations of mammals with big brains, they go to a lot of effort to avoid
the obvious conclusion, which is that the humpback did it for a similar reason
to why a human might make a coyote lay off an attack on a raccoon or possum.
We wouldn't always, but plenty of humans would, and it wouldn't be for any
particularly abstract or intellectual reason, it's more like, "the coyote is
being mean, make it stop because I can."

Sometimes, scientists remind me of mid-20th century behaviorists trying to
explain human behavior.

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slg
Isn't the entire idea of "being mean" an abstract and intellectual idea?
Furthermore that thought process would have a number of complex implications.
Do whales equate eating another animal with "being mean"? Does that mean they
view hunting as "wrong" in some way? Do they have guilt over continuing to
hunt? Are there some whales that morally object to hunting? Is there some orca
out there that feeds on plankton because it is the whale equivalent of a
morally motivated vegan?

It is much cleaner to isolate the motivation and equate it with something more
animalistic like "it is instinctually initiating a preemptive attack on a
predator and the seal was just a lucky but coincidental bystander".

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gerbilly
> Isn't the entire idea of "being mean" an abstract and intellectual idea?

Not really, it boils down to harm prevention.

I believe that, as humans, we greatly overestimate our own reliance or
abstract ideas.

If we notice someone is harming another, and we intervene, we simply act.

The explanation for our behaviour (someone was being mean) comes later as
post-hoc rationalisation.

Ironically, we then further rationalise and extrapolate from this incorrect
idea that human behaviour comes from a fount of abstract values and ideas, and
use it to devalue animals and their behaviour (assuming they have no complex
cognition, and so must be dumb).

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tapland
I've lived with dogs and birds and seen dogs intervene when other dogs fight,
birds intervene when other birds fight and dogs intervene when birds fight.

I don't think stopping aggressive acts in one's vicinity requires more
reasoning ability than plotting to long term ruin the outlooks for other
specific species X, species Y is cute or some thoughts about the moral act of
hunting. Most animals have some experience with others acting aggressively and
would like that reduced. We don't think about who is involved either when we
see a fight break out between humans or animals.

I just happened to come across a magpie that was fighting a mouse outdoors
today, and the mouse got pinned in a hole in a tree where the magpie kept
pecking. I don't know why but I walked over so that the magpie went up in a
nearby tree and the mouse ran away. That same magpie then attacked some nearby
other magpies before calming down.

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goodcanadian
A YouTube video I enjoyed several years back involved chickens (hens) breaking
up a rabbit fight.

Edit: it proved surprisingly easy to find:
[https://youtu.be/D35uQCtr4EY](https://youtu.be/D35uQCtr4EY)

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a11r
The hypothesis at the end of the article assumes humpback whales are just
acting instinctively. I think it is much more likely that the whales are able
to reason that denying other prey to their babies' predator is a good thing.
In addition to keeping the orca population in check and reducing the energy
available to them, the humpbacks might also be fully capable of holding a
grudge.

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sliken
Instinctively? Dunno, whales seem pretty smart. They communicate, they take
care of their young, have advanced feeding strategies, and interesting
interactions with humans.

Seems quite plausible they understand the relationship between feeding,
reproduction, and population growth. They are clearly aware that killer whales
feed on baby humpback whales. Doesn't seem a stretch that humpbacks would do
whatever they can to prevent killer whales from feeding.

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Ididntdothis
I know somebody who studied orcas in school and she said that humpbacks tend
to give orcas a hard time whenever they meet them. It’s understandable since
orcas often attack their young ones.

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golover721
Yes exactly, and thats what the article says.

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fallingfrog
The simple answer might be the right one, it just felt bad for the seal.
Nobody really knows how intelligent humpback whales are.

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hurrdurr2
I suspect they are much smarter than we give them credit for.

It is also why I feel commercial whaling (or in Japan's case "scientific
research") is such a horrific thing to do.

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senorjazz
with that said, I suppose you don't eat pig or cow products?

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simmanian
I agree that we should all eat less meat and the way we treat "factory"
animals is cruel. But with that said, would you really argue hunting
chimpanzees is the same as killing pigs?

My point is, it's not wrong to apply different standards for different
animals. GP says they feel whaling is wrong because they relate more to whales
than they do with cows or pigs. If GP sees news articles on how cows are
actively saving other helpless animals from getting hunted, maybe they'll
start applying similar standards to cows too. You may find this illogical and
annoying, but bringing up cows and pigs in this way is not constructive in my
opinion.

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chmod775
I hate this tendency of trying to reduce the behavior of _conscious_ living
things (such as whales, dolphins etc.), who are capable of emotions to simple
"inadvertent" rules.

That's like saying: I believe Mr. Pittman, who is otherwise capable of complex
behavior, did not consider the meaning of his words before uttering them. What
he said was simply an inadvertent response to being asked a question.

You wouldn't even say that about a dog following orders.

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JackFr
"If a lion could talk, we would not understand him."

I would differentiate being able to characterize the behavior from being able
to 'understand' the behavior. If for the sake of argument, we assume orcas and
humpback whales have higher brain functions around the level of humans, I
would argue it's still impossible for us to understand the humpbacks
motivation because his mind is completely alien to ours.

~~~
dmix
All life on earth comes from the same competitive biology though. The
motivations of all species and organisms follow some predictable trends and
patterns.

The ROI of preemptively attacking a predator while the dolphins are busy/tired
from hunting while also taking food away from them in the process isn't a
giant mystery.

The chances of it being Occam's Razor competition being species is just as
likely as it crossing some higher abstract threshold for actually _caring_
about some other 3rd party specie's individual survival because they're 'nice'
or disgusted by the site (as others in this thread have implied).

Ultimately they don't seem to face much personal risk while doing this as the
Killer Whales aren't big enough to take them on.

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ngcc_hk
Crazy that the commentators have to insist on selfish reason in the end. May
be for one second even if unthinkable for human that whale has a good heart.

Good save.

~~~
rosybox
Is letting the killer whales starve the act of a good heart?

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BurningFrog
Yeah, I'd believe more in the "it really hates killer whales" theory.

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undershirt
SETI pointed at the sky, with intelligent species abound at home.

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watertom
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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lalos
Might be that they are feeling pressure in the environment making them more
aggressive for whatever is remaining of their habitat. Also, a shrinking ice
habitat will make it more probable that they will cross paths. This are just
thoughts, not an expert.

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danans
Maybe they do it for similar reasons humans have for finding baby non human
mammals cute and worth saving?

That said, do we know why we find baby non human mammals cute? I've always
figured that it was a false positive based on features shared with human
babies.

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kcolford
It may be a false positive on our part. But for animals that are likely to be
in contact with humans it's a true positive.

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donaq
Isn't it possible that a significant fraction of mature humpback whales have
had bad encounters with killer whales when they were younger and just always
mess with them when they can?

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sunstone
And why do killer whales never kill humans in the wild?

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senorjazz
Human beings don't really share the same habitats with orcas?

Maybe we don't taste good?

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sunstone
They eat deer and moose swimming by (transients), not to mention sea lions.
There are a lot of divers in their waters world wide.

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cryptozeus
May be it could not see properly and thought seal was a baby whale.

~~~
JackFr
"I thought it was my cousin."

