

Ask HN: So I quit my job to focus on my startup... - xefyr

Who can recommend good books/articles on negotiation?<p>And.<p>How about good freelance/temp resources to pay bills until I become ramen-profitable or secure funding?<p>Perhaps the second question becomes irrelevant if pg is listening...
======
YuriNiyazov
I am surprised at the negative responses you've received in the last ten
minutes of posting this, it is very much against the spirit of what usually
occurs.

1) The book that I've seen mentioned the most often in the area of negotiation
is not actually directly on that topic. It is just a general book on "getting
it your way" - Dale Carnegie's "How to win friends and influence people".

2) I am in NYC, there are local python-nyc and ruby-nyc user groups, and they
get a decent amount of traffic with people asking for help on various
projects, a lot full-time, but occasionally a part-time gig offer comes up.
Research the equivalent in your area.

~~~
xefyr
Thanks Yuri! I appreciate your support, or at least constructive evaluation :)

I'm familiar with the book - I'll give it a go. As for my areas, mostly I'm
finding people looking for full-time deals related to hadoop/hbase/lucene.
Thanks for the reminder though, I'll look "harder".

~~~
paraschopra
You can also read "How to get Rich" by Dennis Felix

~~~
anguslong
+1 for _Felix Dennis_ & How to Get Rich. Holds a permanent place of honor on
my bed-stand. He shares his steps and missteps on his way to becoming a self-
made bill-eee-on-air. Owes much of his success to negotiation. Fun read.

------
thomaspaine
If you actually want to make your startup work, avoid freelancing. It's way
too easy to get sucked into spending all of your time consulting, and it's
pretty difficult to be fully mentally engaged in multiple projects. Also, the
hardest part of freelancing is when you're just starting out. If you don't
already have clients or a reputation, you'll spend all of your time trying to
find clients and bidding on projects.

During this time, you won't be making any money, and the money you do make
will probably be shitty because your clients will be the kind you find on
craigslist that want you to build them "a facebook for X" in exchange for a
sandwich. More importantly, all of this time will be time you didn't spend
developing your startup.

~~~
oldgregg
I second this, pick up work when you absolutely have to and no more. I usually
tell everyone I'm always open to contract work but then set my hourly high
enough that it creates a nice filter.

------
btilly
I once asked a very good negotiator for the best book he could recommend on
negotiation, and he directed me to _Start With No_. (URL:
[http://rcm.amazon.com/e/cm?lt1=_blank&bc1=000000&IS2...](http://rcm.amazon.com/e/cm?lt1=_blank&bc1=000000&IS2=1&bg1=FFFFFF&fc1=000000&lc1=0000FF&t=randomobser0b-20&o=1&p=8&l=as1&m=amazon&f=ifr&md=10FE9736YVPPT7A0FBG2&asins=0609608002))

I've read it, it made sense to me, I've noticed a number of good negotiators
doing things it suggests and my (admittedly few) negotiations I've done since
have gone much better.

~~~
prakash
Ben, you should give this a read "Bargaining for Advantage : Negotiation
Strategies for Reasonable People" By Richard Shell -
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=921079>

------
jakarta
Getting to Yes is a pretty classic negotiation book:

[http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Yes-Negotiating-Agreement-
With...](http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Yes-Negotiating-Agreement-
Without/dp/0140157352)

------
gsteph22
I'm the guy who quit with OP. In fact, his lead engineer (on paper). There's
an interesting dynamic when two people quit at the same time. Game theory
time!

We do have a fair amount of leverage when it comes to negotiating severance
pay, due to our knowledge of distributed architecture.

But yes, we're committed 150% to the startup. And submitted our YC application
a few days ago :)

~~~
javery
If you have knowledge they need why not just offer to provide consulting
services back to the company while they transition. This way you get to eat
and they get a smoother transition.

------
bootload
_"... Who can recommend good books/articles on negotiation? ..."_

Negotiation is as much about non-verbal as it is verbal. So what's a good way
to learn negotiation aside from watching _"Lie to me"_ ~
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie_to_Me> or _"Hustle"_ ~
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hustle_(TV_series)> ? What about playing and
learning poker?

In any sort of negotiation it helps if you can understand a) where the person
you are negotiating with is coming from and b) what they are really
thinking.This is where playing poker can help. To win you sometimes have to
bluff (or lie) about your hand. People who are superior at understand and
reading what others are thinking can use this to their advantage so try some
books on psychology. A good start is understanding _"cognitive bias"_ (how
individual psychology can influence individual decisions) ~
<http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Cognitive_bias>

Another good reference ~ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ekman>

------
plinkplonk
"Who can recommend good books/articles on negotiation?"

The best book on negotiation, bar none, is "Bargaining for Advantage :
Negotiation Strategies for Reasonable People" By Richard Shell.
[http://www.amazon.com/Bargaining-Advantage-Negotiation-
Strat...](http://www.amazon.com/Bargaining-Advantage-Negotiation-Strategies-
Reasonable/dp/0140281916) (looks like it is out of print, but used copies seem
cheap enough)

~~~
justlearning
"looks like it is out of print"

There's a new edition out:

[http://www.amazon.com/Bargaining-Advantage-Negotiation-
Strat...](http://www.amazon.com/Bargaining-Advantage-Negotiation-Strategies-
Reasonable/dp/0143036971)

------
maximumwage
Best of luck to you with your startup! Here are some good articles about
negotiation: <http://www.negotiatormagazine.com/subject_index.shtml>

------
shimon
If you are a techie, the best freelance/temp work will come from your
persistently networking with people and companies that match your interest and
expertise. Those may also lead to partnerships or investments or just plain
old good advice for your startup.

Of course there can be a lot of difficult balancing required between
freelancing and starting up, but many people make it work. The salesmanship,
discipline, and customer relations skills you learn freelancing can certainly
come in handy in a startup.

------
snitko
I've recently finished listening to "Influencer":
[http://www.audible.com/adbl/site/products/ProductDetail.jsp?...](http://www.audible.com/adbl/site/products/ProductDetail.jsp?productID=BK_HIGH_000356&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes)

From my review: "I expected this book to be less scientific and less valuable
than it turned out to be. Not one of those stupid motivational books, but
rather a good theory source with real-life cases as illustrations.

Some of the chapters move you away from the major subject while trying to
prove a point, and discuss things like, for example, delaying gratification
studies or skills acquisition processes. These topics, however, are presented
in a great scientific manner (well, maybe not a scientific, but at least
authors are not bullshitting with you and consider you to be smart) and are
supplied with data and good examples, so it's a pleasure to read (listen to)
them.

I also think this book is a must-read for entrepreneurs, as they are the ones,
who must influence people all the time and be good at it. And while they
usually learn to do so by practicing, this book might provide a great deal of
theory to start with."

I'm also listening to the other book by these authors now - it's called
"Crucial Conversations", seems like it's really useful too.

------
wgj
Highly recommended, and no one has mentioned yet:

Getting To Yes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getting_to_YES>

And anything by Cialdini: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cialdini>

------
karthikm
For starters, I'd recommend 'How to win friends and influence people' by Dale
Caregie and 'How to talk to anyone' by Leil Lowndes.

Freelancing to pay bills also turns out to be a big distraction. I'd recommend
exploring other creative ways that don't take your focus off of your startup
to pay (or avoid) your bills.

~~~
Shana
I second the Leil Lowndes.

~~~
petercooper
Thirded. "How to Talk To Anyone" is an excellent book. I need to read it again
though as there are so many things to remember :-)

~~~
Shana
I actually use the tip on nametags. I'm now known as "Smiley" because I put
smiley faces on nametags instead of my name. I'm dorky what can I say.

------
azolotov
I am taking a negotiation class right now and we are using the three books
listed below. The professor is really great, and the books are not boring
college textbooks - they're really engaging and I'd read them on my own if I
wasn't taking the course, too.

"Yes!: 50 Scientifically Proven Ways to Be Persuasive" by Goldstein, Margin, &
Cialdini is a great book on influence and persuasion.

Cialdini is a great resource for influence/negotiation in general, so look for
other articles/books written by him.

"Predictably Irrational, Revised and Expanded Edition: The Hidden Forces That
Shape Our Decisions" by Ariely is a great book on behavioral economics

"Negotiation" by Lewicki, Saunders, and Barry

------
jmtame
why are you jumping right into negotiation skills? do you have a product yet?
has someone approached you and said "we want to buy your company!"?

i know zackattack's comment got downvoted pretty badly, maybe because he was a
bit too facetious in how he phrased it. but you do have some money saved up to
last at least a few months, don't you?

edit: i'm not trying to be negative, i am very much for quitting to do your
start up. but trying to learn how to negotiate seems like a bad sign. if
anything, you should be focused on building something people want right now.

------
floozyspeak
All of these questions should of been researched to death before you leaped.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Paralysis by Analysis

------
jarsj
I started doing that when I ran out of all my previous savings. If you are
confident that you can always make money, wait and give all the time to your
startup before it runs out.

------
aditya
Congrats.

Why are you looking for books on negotiation? I don't have any other than the
ones mentioned, but the first rule of negotiation is to pretend like you don't
give a shit about the favorable outcome, then proceed from that premise and
everything will be fine.

This is jacquesm's must read on consulting: <http://jacquesmattheij.com/be-
consultant>

------
_pius
Fisher and Ury's "Getting to Yes" is the most authoritative text on
negotiation and very accessible.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getting_to_YES>

------
bemmu
So what is your startup?

~~~
gsteph22
Fully scalable, faceted, bolt-on search :)

~~~
moe
Google?

------
alex3t
Agree with thomaspaine. I'm freelancer and working on others projects takes
most of my time

------
firefoxman1
Against All Odds by James Dyson and Pouring Your Heart Into it (starbucks) are
on my list

------
andrewstuart
Negotiation is about getting a good deal that both sides feel is of value to
them.

------
Mz
I had a class called "Negotiation and Conflict Management". The two required
texts for it were "Getting to Yes" and "The Mind and Heart of the Negotiator".
My recollection is that these are the only two books on the topic (or were at
the time) that are based on research. "Getting to Yes" is short and an easy
read. "The Mind and Heart of the Negotiator" is a much meatier book. I
recommend it often.

------
zackattack
You're fucked.

The first principle of negotiation is to always have a better option.

~~~
javery
Actually the first principle of negotiation is to make the other person THINK
you have a better option. :)

~~~
jmtame
yes, but there is a lot of psychology involved. if you're in a needy position,
it will be difficult to fake it. and experienced negotiators will catch your
BS pretty qucikly.

------
ashishk
one of the regulars here posted an awesome guide about freelancing. i would
look it up but i'm going to grab a beer instead =)

~~~
tgittos
This is probably what you're talking about:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=848370>

If not, it's good anyway.

