

Ask YC: Which internship, Cisco or small C++ startup? - brooksbp

I've seen a few of the "Which offer should I go for? BigCo or startup?"  But, I'm going to be flat out and give you the names of the companies that I have received offers for; partly because I would like to know if anyone has worked for BigCo... and would like to provide more specific information to help you give relevant feedback.<p>BigCo: Cisco Systems... at the Boulder office working on a web-based deployment Q/A system thing, a front end for a hard drive failure detection daemon, and possibly some virtualization stuff.<p>Startup: Rogue Wave Software... check out their URL for what they do... mainly enterprise C++ SOA stuff...<p>http://www.roguewave.com/<p>Would be working on developing a new Q/A web-based system thing I imagine similar to Cisco, somewhat on open source Apache Tomcat, and to cross-platformize their product (help run on various flavors of unix, AIX, etc...)...<p>I haven't discussed wages yet... so that could be the ultimate factor.  Also trying to get more detailed information on the projects I'll be working on, but most of the info is already there.<p>I'm about to finish my sophomore year as a Comp Sci major / Comp Eng minor... really interested in operating systems, networking, and programming languages...<p>I'm thinking BigCo just because the work is similar and it's good to get at least one BigCo under your belt...  Also might look really well to have a BigCo under your belt as early as my Sophomore year... :p<p>Any thoughts?
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bkrausz
I'd say go for the large company.

I interned at a large company the summer after my freshman year, and I feel I
learned significantly more by noting what they did right/wrong with all of
their influence and money than I would by working at a small startup that had
fewer glaring issues and less leeway to screw up. The difference is that if a
startup has a major issue, they will either fix it quickly or won't be a
startup very long. A large company is almost certain to have major problems
that they don't fix because the impact on the bottom line is a negligible
percent at first glance, even though the issue could be crushing. I find I
learn more from seeing mistakes made than thing done right.

Also, at this stage this is mostly working as a resume padder and not an
actual career choice (at least not now), and assuming you will be working on
similar things at either company the name recognition of Cisco make them a
better choice. I specifically recall internship interviews after my first
internship where all they did to their copy of my resume was put a giant
circle around that company's name. Even if you do more skilled work and learn
more at the startup, Cisco is more likely to get you into an interview at
another company in the future.

Also, IANAL, but I think naming the companies is at least poor etiquette, if
not a breach of something (perhaps an NDA, depending on your interview
process). If you haven't discussed wages yet, that means you haven't made an
official offer, and they could in theory retract it if they find out you were
talking about the offer. A slim chance, but something to keep in mind in the
future.

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mrtron
Naming them is at a minimum bad form.

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aggieben
My choice would be RogueWave. There are truly C++ experts there - the kind you
will have a tough time finding (in person) in other places. Also, there's a
good chance (I suppose) that you'll get to work on core products at RogueWave.
They make money on their C++ software; that's probably what you'll get to work
on. That's very, very good.

Case in point about experts - I work for a huge defense contractor. I suspect
that in terms of C++ expertise, I am in the top 5 or so out of at least 2000
engineers at my site. It's not that I'm so awesome, but just that C++ is just
not what we do here. There are plenty of experts here on other topics, but
there aren't many people I can really learn from here on the topics I care
most about (not limited to C++, obviously). There are a few, and I latch onto
them as fast as possible.

Ask yourself: are you going to be exposed to the rare experts in a field that
interests you at Cisco? Possibly, but "web-based deployment Q/A system thing"
sounds like internal IT-crud to me - and that's not Cisco's business. Also,
ask yourself, "Self, will I be working on essential business products at
Cisco"? Remember that Cisco is based in San Jose.

In other words, the two things to consider:

1\. will you have unique access to experts in fields/topcis that you care
about?

2\. will you be working on the thing that the business is _about_? (i.e., if
you work at a router company, you better be working on routers. If you work at
a software company, you better be working on their prime software. if you work
at Ford, you better be working on designing vehicles...you get the idea).

In response to a couple other comments:

Don't worry too terribly much if the problems seem interesting. Pay attention,
of course - have a basic filter - but you're a student looking for an
_internship_. Students looking for internships have no earthly idea what is
truly interesting and what is not - learning what's interesting and what's not
is part of what internship experience is about (e.g., my experience as a
Microsoft intern in testing - SDET - clued me in to the fact that I don't want
to be a "tester").

Good luck.

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tuukkah
Extrapolating from your point #2, would you say you'd better work on search or
on advertisement at Google?

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aggieben
Google isn't really about search, it's about _data aggregation_.

I would say any of the important web applications are also within the group of
"core products" that Google "sells", including the upcoming Google Health,
GMail, and Google Docs & Spreadsheets - but the main point is to be working on
the thing that is what the business is "about".

I would also add that one of the things that has thus far made Google
different is that its employees have greater opportunity to add to the core
business than do employees at other companies (GMail is a perfect example).

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andrewf
RogueWave has been around since the 1980s. It may qualify as a small/medium
company, but I wouldn't call it a startup.

This means that you may not have the same ability to create
features/policy/products/etc as you would in a tiny startup. It is still a
smaller company with technical products, so you may be to punch above your
weight and make a real difference.

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rantfoil
As always -- it depends. =)

First, BigCo experience can be good at this stage because you learn how they
do it. A BigCo is a BigCo because they have a process that works. (maybe not
perfectly, but enough...) It's important early on to see how real software is
shipped. It is messy and inelegant, and forces you to make tough choices. But
a BigCo survives because most of the time through process and culture things
work out.

A startup can be awesome if they give you real experience and a chance to make
a real dent in the product. But sometimes you won't get that if the situation
isn't good. e.g. Engineering team isn't up to snuff, bad process, poisonous
culture. In enterprise startups I've seen this to be more true than not...
your mileage may vary.

Final question you should ask yourself about each option:

Who will be my manager, do I have a lot to learn from them, and how much time
are they willing to spend with me?

This may well affect your experience more than any other factor.

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sanj
I think that characterizing a company as a "C++ Startup" is a mistake.

The language doesn't matter.

Do they have crazy smart people? Are the problems interesting?

That's what matters.

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streblo
Go for Cisco. I did a part-time internship with them last semester and I had a
blast. Lots of smart people - you'll definitely learn a lot.

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mrtron
Go Cisco, and seek out smart people to work with and learn from.

Guaranteed to find some, which is not the case with the startup.

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prakash
_"I'm thinking BigCo just because the work is similar and it's good to get at
least one BigCo under your belt..."_

I read in Cialdini/ Munger/ Scott Plous 's (can't remember) book about people
typically asking for advice, once they have made up their mind, just to
validate their decision.

Good luck with your internship!!

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pl0nk
> Startup: Rogue Wave Software

not to disappoint you but:

"Rogue Wave® Software has been serving the needs of the developer community
for almost two decades" <http://www.roguewave.com/company/history-
milestones.php>

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tptacek
I didn't even read this whole post all the way through, but I'll tell you that
I have several friends who have interned at Cisco, and more who have taken
full time jobs there for a time, and based on those sources, go to the
startup.

Rogue Wave isn't a startup; they've been around since the early 90's.

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wallflower
RogueWave. My made-up criteria: they are one of the longest-running
advertisers in DDJ, which I have been reading for years..

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sohail
Rogue Wave is not a startup

