
IBM has decided to co-locate its US marketing department - TerminalJunkie
https://qz.com/924167/ibm-remote-work-pioneer-is-calling-thousands-of-employees-back-to-the-office/
======
padobson
_A theory among some employees is that IBM is using co-location as a
downsizing effort._

I hope it's not an accurate theory. Downsizing this way means your most self-
motivated, productive employees are likely to leave long before those who
drive to the office because they feel they have no other choice.

 _Like Best Buy and Yahoo at the points at which they decided to co-locate,
IBM is a business that needs to do something new._

Our businesses are shrinking, so let's try something new: make our employees
less productive.

Despite the positive spin the writer puts on the plan, to me it seems like the
death throes of past-their-prime companies.

And based on what others have said in these comments, the change is mostly
affecting marketing employees.

I'd say co-location is a pet tactic of the writer, without any real evidence
that remote work is anything but progress.

If a job can be done remotely, it should be done remotely.

~~~
spcelzrd
It's the best way to get a large amount of your workforce to leave
voluntarily. No workforce reduction paperwork. No severance packages. Yahoo
did it. Nokia did it. In fact, the companies who pull this trick are almost
all shrinking and past their prime.

But don't worry, IBM has tens of thousands of strap hangers who've been
surviving layoffs for decades.

The bottom line will get brighter. The future of the company will get darker.
It's the Jack Welch school of management.

~~~
markbnj
Did you read the article though? They are offering 90 days to make the
decision, and a month's severance (miserly, imo, but they're offering it). As
mentioned in the piece this wouldn't be a very manageable or predictable way
to reduce headcount. It's much more likely the motives are exactly what the
company said the motives are: they feel like they will be more effective
working together. I would likely be one of the employees who said goodbye
rather than move, and I don't think this is ultimately a good decision, but
neither do I think it's necessary to dig for hidden motives and agendas.

~~~
organsnyder
A month's severance is a lot cheaper than paying for unemployment benefits.

~~~
jrs235
From my understanding, and this will vary from state to state since
unemployment insurance is managed and dealt with by states, not the federal
government, employees would still possibly be able to collect unemployment
after that month of severance runs out if they are unable to get a new job
(and are actively looking) and the unemployment claims will still ding IBM.
That month of severance offsets their unemployment insurance rate increase(s).
IBM is hoping folks can find a job in the next four months so they don't have
to pay any out. Additionally, I would assume, part of accepting the severance
might require the employee signing papers which state that the end of
employment is voluntary and agreed upon possibly invalidating the employees
claim to unemployment and thus hurting IBM's insurance rates. Whether that
applies or works will depend on numerous factors, particularly the state the
employment occurred in.

~~~
Consultant32452
The relevant statute is called the WARN Act, Worker Adjustment and Retraining
Notification. This requires 60 days notice (or 60 days pay) among other
things.

[https://www.doleta.gov/layoff/pdf/WorkerWARN2003.pdf](https://www.doleta.gov/layoff/pdf/WorkerWARN2003.pdf)

------
pm90
Disclosure: I'm a developer at IBM, but not speaking in official capacity. The
comment here is completely personal.

I went through this article and it seems like a lot of FUD. The line to note
is:

> Though not every department at IBM will be asked to colocate, many will.

So yes, some departments have been "asked" to colocate. However, AFAIK nobody
is being "forced". My team lead was asked to colocate but decided to stay
where they are because of personal reasons (family).

Speaking generally, I've had incredibly flexible hours, more so than at any
other place I've worked so far (and I have worked at some of the "hip"
places).

Anyways, the headline itself seems truly sensationalist.

~~~
danso
So IBM employees who refuse the company's formal request to colocate shouldn't
be nervous about their status in the medium to long-term future?

~~~
geodel
I agree. I think this is first step to separate out people who are unwilling
to relocate. Next they will look at the work they are doing, if deemed non-
critical I assume they will be first to go.

~~~
pm90
I mean, isn't that the case with any job? So sure, this might be an extra
consideration when the time for layoffs comes around.

My intention was not saying that nothing changed; emphasis on colocation is
definitely a real thing. But IBM is not "ending remote work", as the headline
says (it should be changed to the actual article title, which is more
reasonable). It is most certainly allowed.

~~~
geodel
True, it is with any job. I still think it will be good filter for people who
think IBM job is critical for them and family vs family and location is
critical than IBM job.

I agree IBM will most likely lose good remote workers but for company of IBM
size individual super performers are not critical to their financial well
being.

------
bigmattystyles
/IBM employee rant begin

To me, the fact that IBM has for years encouraged remote work, been
affirmatively OK with people moving hundreds, even thousands of miles from
their nearest co-location center to then yanking this policy and forcing
employees to decide whether to move in a short amount of time makes this, in
my mind, a thinly-veiled downsizing effort.

Imagine; for years, your department in is NY state, but you've been told it's
totally cool to move to Colorado and work from home. In fact, IBM exclaims how
it's good for the company because it saves space and money! You build your
family's life there, then all the sudden - you have a month to decide to
relocate to NY state (sell your house, change your kids' school, etc) or quit
with a measly package. They won't even allow you to go to the nearby IBM
office in Colorado because your group is based in NY state.

I know employment is at-will, and what IBM is doing is perfectly legal. It
doesn't mean it doesn't stink.

~~~
justin66
> then all the sudden - you have a month to decide to relocate to NY state

Is that actually happening to you? pm90 below indicated that IBM wasn't doing
this.

~~~
bigmattystyles
Not me personally, definitely to others I work with - there's been hints of no
enforcement until later this year but nothing official.

Edit: And as PM90 said, it does seem to be only some departments. PM90 said
the article creates FUD, but I think you could argue IBM is doing that to its
employees with this.

------
andrenotgiant
> Peluso, formerly the CEO of fashion startup Gilt, explained the “only one
> recipe I know for success.” Its ingredients included great people, the right
> tools, a mission, analysis of results, and one more thing: “really creative
> and inspiring locations.”

That must be the same secret recipe that quartered[1] GILT's value in less
than 10 years!

[1] Gilt Groupe at one point valued at $1B, sold to HBC for $250M -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilt_Groupe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilt_Groupe)

------
codingdave
This isn't universal - a good friend of mine works for a team that is getting
shipped off to IBM as part of a merger, and told to apply for the new IBM jobs
if they want to keep working there. Ignoring the ugliness of that situation
for the moment, he specifically asked about this news of remote work ending as
it relates to how coding jobs would be impacted, and was told that the jobs he
was applying for were intended to remain remote.

All the news I have seen has been about the marketing team, and my story is
just one team, so I have no real idea what the big picture is, but it seems to
be more nuanced than what we are reading about in the news.

~~~
simpleProMan123
Every time I've found myself needing to ask, or had teammates who needed to
ask the question "Is my job safe beyond the next month?" the answer has been
"no."

------
alistproducer2
Marissa Mayer did the same thing shortly after getting to Yahoo. I think the
results there speak for themselves. There's never a case where a move like
this will boost morale or attract/keep top talent. IMO moves like this are all
about showing dominance and being a "person of action." It's corporate
politics showmanship at the expense of results.

~~~
devopsproject
> I think the results there speak for themselves

151% stock increase? Nearly double market cap?

~~~
jasonwatkinspdx
I find the enthusiasm for tearing down Mayer gross, but to be clear: subtract
the value of the alibaba stock and all that disappears.

~~~
briandear
Would it be less gross if she were not a woman? When other CEOs make decisions
that ruin a company, they get critized too. Steve Balmer was a frequent object
of ridicule. Other women execs such as Sandberg aren't treated badly -- the
enthusiasm for tearing Mayer down comes from the fact that she was lauded as
some kind of exceptional executive when she was really just a lot of high
minded talk backed by questionable decisions and a slew of pointless
acquisitions at ridiculous prices. She was positioned as some kind of ultra-
woman when she was just mediocre at best (within the Yahoo context.) In my
mind, Mayer earned every cent of criticism and someone like Sandberg has
earned every cent of praise.

~~~
jasonwatkinspdx
> Would it be less gross if she were not a woman?

> the enthusiasm for tearing Mayer down comes from the fact that she was
> lauded as some kind of exceptional executive

While some of the comments are no doubt rooted in the perspective you mention,
there are also plenty of overtly misogynistic comments about her too. I think
it's a bit of whitewashing to claim that all the enthusiasm for tearing her
down is strictly disconnected from gender. I don't know how you can read the
comments that go by on reddit et all and pretend that elephant in the room
isn't there.

I think a lot of the criticism of Balmer is specific and factual, but that
people also overlook that on raw financials his tenure at MS was successful.

------
al2o3cr

        “It’s time for Act II: WINNING!” read the subject line of Peluos’s blog post
    

Nothing says "high-quality leadership role-model" like Charlie Sheen.

~~~
talawahdotnet
Could also be presidential quote. This timeline we are on is really weird.

------
archeantus
I am remote, and have been for the last 3.5 yrs. As a software developer I
find that the times I am least productive are when I need to work in an
office. It is loud and distractions are everywhere. People stop by your desk
to chat and ask for things, you inevitably get roped into ping-pong or
foosball games, you take way longer lunches because that is what everyone else
seems to be doing. The list goes on.

I am always glad to get home from the office so I can focus and get work done
in peace. It may not be the case for all roles, but for software development I
think (motivated and diligent) remote workers are way more productive, and can
provide a much better ROI for their employers.

------
BinaryIdiot
It worked out _ever so well_ for Yahoo when Mayer did it so surely it'll work
for IBM who has two orders of magnitude more employees...actually, perhaps the
end goal is voluntary resignations?

~~~
brational
> perhaps the end goal is voluntary resignations?

That's the only explanation that makes sense.

~~~
markgavalda
Why not simply fire those who they don't want to work with anymore? They're
clearly used to do that at IBM and it would be much more controlled and cost
effective.

~~~
spcelzrd
You have to pay them to leave. You have to endure the publicity of large scale
layoffs. This way, you are progressive, agile, and team oriented.

------
jmcdiesel
IBM is so weird.

I haven't worked for them, but I work with 2 former IBM Engineers in Austin...
both of them say the same weird things.. like, you can't get two monitors
(when one asked, he was declined, then his boss pulled an old CRT out of a
closet and gave it too him... a 640x480 CRT from what must have been 184 years
ago) ... And other weird tales that just seem antithetical to a tech company..

~~~
krona
IBM isn't a tech company. It's a brand with an impressive marketing department
that sells experiences, not products. The rest of it (the stuff you don't see
unless you get close enough) is an accumulation of spaghetti acquired in an ad
hoc and aimless fashion.

~~~
coredog64
At my previous employer, we were evaluating solutions from IBM, TIBCO, and
Oracle. The IBM solution was cheaper and met our needs. In the end, our VP
nixed them with the statement of "I don't really want to support IBM
software." The feeling was unanimous across the team.

~~~
anticodon
Yes, IBM still sells IBM/Rational ClearCase which has impressive cost (about
$5000 per license) and has about 5% features of Git, also absolutely bozotic
UI.

What surprises me, some companies still use it in 2017 and still pay $5000 to
buy a product that is inferior in every respect to Mercurial, Git, Subversion.

~~~
T-hawk
There exist many companies where one's perceived status as a manager derives
from how much budget you command rather than on how effectively you choose
tools or deliver solutions.

------
jps359
"the severance payment will be equal to one month’s base salary, the standard
at IBM."

Worth keeping in mind that this is the new policy as of about a year ago (they
changed it before the big waves of layoffs last year).

Before the change you would get a week for every 6 months worked, up to 23
weeks.

------
geodel
I have known many people who work in companies like Oracle, IBM etc where
there is consulting at client location and then report at designated office.
Generally reporting at designated office is very lax and people either are at
client site or just stay at home. I wonder if tightening remote work
requirement is for these people too.

Lately at traditional IT companies even temporarily non-billable resources are
increasingly being scrutinized for their output.

------
redm
Remote work has many benefits, but it's not all upside. Possibly IBM saw the
successes they had by co-locating the Watson, Marketing and Health squads
compared and decided there was a lot of productivity being lost.

------
aantix
When I went to sign up for Watson's API services, I had to allow for third
party cookies just to enter my payment information. It was a pain just trying
to dig through Chrome to allow this, but I wonder how many of their potential
customers just punt on that point alone.

For one of their flagship products, it's been an average experience at best.

------
joshstrange
I use to think that remote work was goal I should be aiming for but after have
a few friends did it and I thought more about it I've decided I would hate it.
On the surface it sounds great and while I fully support working from home a
few times a month I can't support any more than that.

One of my good friends that did it has an interesting take, he said that since
he was more introverted he thought he was perfect for remote work when in fact
it made him miserable. His dad worked remotely for a large part of his life
but was an extrovert. He concluded that contrary to what may seem like common
sense introverts do worse in remote work because the office is where they get
a majority of their human interaction while extroverts are going to make that
happen regardless of if they go into an office every day.

I have no experience with working from home for a long period of time but I
know calling into meetings is the worst and that there are a TON of
decisions/conversations that you get ZERO input on (most of the time you don't
even know they happened) when you are remote. I have never been so happy that
I didn't get a remote job I interviewed for a few years ago.

As much as I hate companies giving a perk and then taking it away I can't help
but think this is the right move for IBM.

PS: Yes HipChat/Slack/Jira/GitLab/GitHub/etc/etc/etc can help with this but
you are fooling yourself if you think that the people in the office are going
to record every single interaction/conversation/etc of note. Remote-only teams
might be an exception but even then you really do lose the ability to roll
over to co-workers chair and have an impromptu conversation.

------
mathattack
It's easy to forget that IBM is in the share buyback business. They're not a
growing technology power. They have Watson, which isn't enough to save them.
They can't invest money wisely, so every year they cut headcount and return
some money to shareholders. It's the orderly returning of money to
shareholders from a company that doesn't need investment anymore.

So why should this company offer perks to compete with Google or a startup?
They only need a shrinking subset of lifers to keep the lights on.

If you want to telecommute, find a place that specializes in it.

------
zzalpha
What I find a bit odd is that this is ostensibly about becoming more
innovative.

But does anyone really believe that major strategic business and product
innovation occurs at the level of the individual contributors and teams who
will be affected by this change?

I mean, sure, cool new features happen at that level, but you can't tell me
the iPhone would've fallen out of a "water cooler" conversation between a
couple of C++ devs on a Wednesday afternoon in the office.

~~~
pm90
> I mean, sure, cool new features happen at that level, but you can't tell me
> the iPhone would've fallen out of a "water cooler" conversation between a
> couple of C++ devs on a Wednesday afternoon in the office.

I think you are severely discounting the advantages of having people nearby/
in the same office. I'm not against working remotely, but personally do prefer
a mix between working in the office and WFH. Its a lot easier to whiteboard
designs and explain concepts. Its easy to ask a question and get an answer.
There's also the other aspect of building a shared culture and getting to know
your coworkers. That promotes a sense of comraderie so that when e.g. someone
on the team has to take time off, there is a deadline for a deliverable or
there is a service outage, the team works much more quickly and cohesively to
solve problems. This also allows a better division of labor and I've seen this
lead to many innovations as one person on the team focuses exclusively for a
small time on solving a problem.

~~~
zzalpha
None of which addresses my point.

I'm not talking about innovation in the small, where a dev comes up with a
clever new bit of user experience or a snazzy new algorithm. That stuff is
nice but it's incremental.

I'm talking strategic innovation, the stuff that makes or breaks big companies
like IBM when they're struggling to compete in 2017.

I would never claim there aren't advantages to co-located engineers.

But I struggle to believe that one of those advantages is big picture
innovation as implied by the article.

------
dbg31415
> In a video message, Peluso, formerly the CEO of fashion startup Gilt,
> explained the “only one recipe I know for success.” Its ingredients included
> great people, the right tools, a mission, analysis of results, and one more
> thing: “really creative and inspiring locations.”

Why is this news coming from the CMO? Anyone know?

~~~
cwilkes
I had to read the article multiple times as I thought the same thing. One
paragraph mentions that the CMO is only talking about the marketing org, but
that the sentiment is repeated elsewhere in the company.

#winning

------
pinaceae
HP did the same thing a couple years ago.

Main reason is downsizing, easiest way to thin the herd. At that size, HR is
just a spreadsheet exercise, quality of the individual employees does not
factor in.

Of course this will not affect their "remote" workforce in India, this is
about the high-pay western markets.

------
snockerton
For affected IBMers... find a new remote gig!

[https://github.com/lukasz-madon/awesome-remote-
job](https://github.com/lukasz-madon/awesome-remote-job)

------
kazinator
Some thirty years ago I heard a joke from a friend's dad (employee of IBM)
that it stands for "I've Been Moved".

So this is just "IBM Classic" showing through the modern varnish.

~~~
gspetr
They've come a long way since the 1930s:

[https://arstechnica.com/business/2014/08/tripping-through-
ib...](https://arstechnica.com/business/2014/08/tripping-through-ibms-
astonishingly-insane-1937-corporate-songbook/)

------
bitmapbrother
IBM is not ending remote work. They're laying off thousands of North American
workers every quarter and sending those jobs remotely to India.

------
S_A_P
IBM is a failed services company. Ive been a subcontractor for 2 projects run
by IBM. Both fiascos of mismanagement. The project management at IBM had an
incredible churn rate. On the first project, they were kicked off for
completely failing to deliver. The second project had them completely
marginalized. The sad thing is that it was another "big 4" consulting company
that took over, who was only slightly less incompetent. I really have trouble
understanding the big 4 consulting model. It mainly seems to consist of the
following:

1) plant 2-300% of the consultants on site that are necessary 2) create an
enormous amount of power point slides that look impressive but mainly say
nothing 3) outsource the real work to India or cheap labor 4) deliver 25% of
the requirements in 300% of the time

~~~
pinaceae
the Big 4 win contracts based on necessary certifications. once it is a
100mil+ project, all kinds of certs come into play, small shops simply can't
produce the paperwork.

of course, there is no correlation between certs and actually being able to
deliver anything, but that does not matter. no CIO will risk their career by
not giving big stuff to a non-Big4 contract.

file under herd mentality, etc.

~~~
paulddraper
What certs are we talking about? SSL certs? PE certs? Cisco certs?

~~~
pinaceae
ha, no.

ITIL, ISO 20000, etc etc etc.

------
sklivvz1971
Today, in the "companies that treat people like things" section we talk about
IBM -- a company that routinely fires thousands of people. Today, the
enlightened company is planning to relocate or dismiss the rest of their
workforce, in the hope to change the company from the inventor and champion of
all-that-is-waterfall to "agile".

All with a straight face.

------
deboboy
This sort of 'cultural' double down is why I left. There's some talented
people there - I'm thankful for everything I learned from them - but the
culture is too rigid for creative exploration and [most importantly]
discovery.

------
gibbitz
If co-location is so great, why are they in six different offices? Call a
layoff a layoff. I guess they avoid paying severance if you quit because you
live in Idaho.

------
homakov
Unrelated: Are there people in the world who prefer spending 8 hours in the
office vs 8 hours wherever they want (office OR home OR cafe)?

~~~
stkrzysiak
I know someone who took an office gig after 5+ yrs of remote due to lack of
the 'office experience'. He's a sane, smart guy, I think he just got tired of
being home all the time. That or his kids reached the obnoxious age.

------
menckenjr
This sounds like an attempt to graft a small-company or startup atmosphere
onto the dying trunk of a behemoth.

------
jlebrech
maybe there's a new and exciting product that they want to develop that needs
everyone's exclusive attention, or it's a business idea that will fail
miserably.

------
cwilkes
I'm not sure how you attract new people to work for a company with _19_
straight quarters of declining sales. Pinky swear that they will turn around
this time?

------
briandear
Whatever salary they're paying remoters now isn't going to be enough to live
in NY or San Fran without a significant quality of life cut. And basically
they get extra "work" out of you for free -- time spent commuting. So 40 hours
a week becomes 50 hours a week assuming a 1-hour commute.

Is it me or is this move seemingly initiated by female executives that want to
project power in order to compensate for the perception that they are less
dedicated to work because of their sex? Given a sample size of two, I would
avoid working for anyone named Melissa.

