
Uber enters dockless bike wars with Jump acquisition - eplanit
https://www.wsj.com/articles/uber-enters-dockless-bike-wars-with-jump-acquisition-1523280600
======
wpietri
This is a puzzle to me. Uber faces some critical issues ahead. If they can
solve them, the bikes will be a rounding error. If they can't, the bike
business won't be enough to save them. Why add the complexity when they could
buy or build something later?

I especially can't figure out why the Jump CEO would do it. The odds of their
work surviving to the 10 year mark seems so small. It reminds me of something
like Dodgeball. (For those who don't remember, it was a company basically like
Foursquare, but years before. Google bought it and did little with it.
Eventually the founders got tired of it, left Google, and started the same
company _again_.)

~~~
maherbeg
I think you may underestimate the impact e-bikes are going to have on major
(non-car centric) cities. They'll likely reshape cities significantly as
infrastructure gets improved for biking. You can get significant traffic
density improvements by pushing bikes instead of cars, and e-bikes make this
more accessible.

~~~
fataliss
That would take a lot of political will to do something like that though and
it would take YEARS! I don't think the US is a great market (right now) for
city-bikes. Outside of maybe Manhattan & SF I can't think of any major city
where a bike would take you places faster/better than another way of
transportation would. When you consider all the hassles that biking as a
transportation comes with, I doubt this has any large potential (compared to
the Uber scale). Could be wrong though. I actually really hope I am!

~~~
electricEmu
Seattle? Portland? Minneapolis/St. Paul? You might consider bicycling while
you travel more. In Seattle alone, OFO, LimeBike, and Spin are all competing.

American bicycle infrastructure is behind, but it exists. I don't own a car. I
get around those cities on bike without issue. It's as fast or faster than a
car in many cases and I'm peddling the old fashioned way (with legs).

~~~
phil21
Minneapolis? As someone who commuted via bike "before it was cool" in
Minneapolis I want to ask what you're smoking :)

The density simply isn't there, and the infrastructure is pretty horrible
aside from some _exceedingly_ small areas of the city proper, and of course
the amazing bike paths (which typically are not useful for anything other than
leisure). If that's what you consider a high bar for "bike infrastructure" in
the US, I think the situation is pretty dire.

I moved to Chicago largely due to transit-related reasons, and the bike
commute here isn't exactly stellar - but it's at least night and day compared
to the average suburban-oriented city in the US.

That said, spending significant time in the Netherlands may have raised the
bar too far for me to really think of _any_ US bike infrastructure as being
much more than an afterthought at best.

~~~
ams6110
I don't understand biking in Chicago or Minneapolis. What do you do when it
rains, or snows, which is like 2/3 of the year? And after that it's 95 degrees
and 98% humidity. There are probably no more than 30 to 45 days a year where
it's really decent biking weather.

~~~
phil21
Well, in Chicago you pretty much bike on the good days. The infrastructure
isn't great (like noted by OP in his followup to me) - but the density of the
city makes it pretty workable if not entirely enjoyable. You can typically get
around on bike on the good weather days faster than most other forms of
transit - largely because you're only a few miles from anywhere you need to
be.

So in Chicago the typical bicycle commuter commutes on the nice days (maybe
half the year?) and will take public transit the rest.

In Minneapolis I commuted via bike for financial reasons so it was mostly a
"suck it up, buttercup" sort of deal. You brought changes of clothes,
outfitted your bike for the weather, and otherwise just made do. Honestly
summer was worse than winter because I sweat a lot in heat. I cannot imagine
living in that area without a car voluntarily. You just cut yourself off from
far too much - but I suppose this was pre-Uber so the situation is a little
bit more tenable.

Public transit in Minneapolis is basically for poor folks or those with DUIs -
so it's not exactly stellar and usually not an option for most folks living in
the metro area.

Edit: The follow up of "maybe 15 bad days" you had is for what most would call
hardcore riders. The number of days the casual fair-weather bicycle commuter
rides is far, far, less. I feel pretty comfortable saying this considering my
family was known as crazies because we'd bike throughout the winter no matter
the weather.

~~~
b3b0p
> Public transit in Minneapolis is basically for poor folks or those with DUIs

What? No.

I'm in Minneapolis. I live downtown. I find using the bus and light rail far
more convenient and easy then a car. Let alone the baggage a car brings such
as maintenance, insurance, upfront costs, and not to mention parking.

------
dawhizkid
Awesome! Having used Jump this weekend, I wouldn't say dockless is the main
value prop to me as a customer - it's the power assist that makes it feel more
like a scooter than a bike. Going medium distances (1-2 miles) and up and down
steep hills in SF was a breeze. If you're commuting, it's "sweat free."

IMO Uber Pool/Lyft Line has gotten so slow (I'm sure Pool/Line's share of
total rides vs regular X/Lyft is more than 80% in many cities now) for short
to med distances that powered bikes has become more and more appealing.

~~~
jseliger
_it 's the power assist that makes it feel more like a scooter than a bike_

There are many comments online about how awesome electric bikes are and many
skeptical responses. I think the basic divide comes down to one thing: Has the
person tried an electric bike? Almost everyone who has immediately sees them
as awesome. Many who haven't don't get the point.

There are finally some reputable electric bikes available for around $1,000
([https://www.propella.bike/products/singlespeed](https://www.propella.bike/products/singlespeed)),
but most people want transportation without having to deal with hassle on
either end.

~~~
UncleEntity
> Has the person tried an electric bike? Almost everyone who has immediately
> sees them as awesome. Many who haven't don't get the point.

Probably depends on your goals as well.

I got one of those 2-stroke engines to put on my bike a while ago and when it
arrived I was looking at it and thinking "if I put this thing on my bike I'll
never get any exercise". Instead I went to the pawn shop and got another bike
and put it on that one instead -- and it sits in the corner unused to this
day. One of these years I'll get it out and ride it around because it's
actually pretty nice looking, a "lowrider" beach cruiser that fits the engine
perfectly like they were made for each other.

~~~
xur17
I had a similar response. I bike to work, and one of my coworkers got an
electric bike that he let me try. I was very tempted to get one, as it would
make longer distance much more viable, but I was also afraid I'd always use
the electric bike and not get any exercise.

I'd love something like Jump in Austin for trips when it's hot out, or longer
distances.

------
jwilliams
Just signed up for this in San Francisco -- Only to find that Russian Hill,
Nob Hill, and North Beach are excluded. Plus Fort Mason, the Presidio, and
anything west of the Panhandle.

"San Francisco" it is not. Which I guess is fine, but they make you pay up-
front, so I found that a bit of cheek.

Admittedly it's only $2, but even on principle it's annoying. They should be
much more transparent in the signup process. They even geolocate you, so
they'd be aware you're out of their coverage zone.

Edit: This is the coverage map:
[https://www.evernote.com/l/ACu5gnYkvnNKq6r8MPguZAczRDuT1B7p6...](https://www.evernote.com/l/ACu5gnYkvnNKq6r8MPguZAczRDuT1B7p66U)

~~~
yonran
One factor that may limit the deployment is San Francisco’s permit
requirement, which specifies that stationless bike share companies must commit
to a “service area” which must have at least 3 bikes per square mile all day,
and 20% of bikes must be in Communities of Concern. See regulation
[http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/transp...](http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/transportation/divisionii/article900permits?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:sanfrancisco_ca$anc=JD_909)
and permit application
[https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/projects/2017/Bike...](https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/projects/2017/Bike%20Share%20Permit_v1.1_FINAL.pdf)

~~~
jwilliams
I feel for them having to deal with SF regulations - so no beef there.

My main niggle is a UX one. They really need to communicate the coverage in
the signup process (especially if you're outside it when you sign up).

To their supreme credit - I contacted support asking clarification. They got
back to me with an answer in minutes. Plus they refunded my initial payment.

------
codereflection
We need to be aware of the problem that's happening in China with bike sharing
[1]. There is a large saturation problem. Ofo seems to be one of the main
contributors to the issue. In Seattle it seems like I see more and more Ofo
bikes on the side of the road, and rarely do I see anyone riding them.

[1] [http://time.com/5218323/china-bicycles-sharing-
economy/](http://time.com/5218323/china-bicycles-sharing-economy/)

~~~
dx034
I wonder how much of such a bike can be recycled? I'd think it's close to 100%
and that it probably pays for costs of pick-up. If not, cities could make
companies pay for costs of disposing of bikes. Shouldn't be a big
environmental issue then, just Chinese subsidies that help recycling companies
and consumers. Pretty similar to all those VC billions that provided free
Uber/Lyft rides to millions.

------
neonate
[http://archive.is/GrVXE](http://archive.is/GrVXE)

------
saudioger
Does anyone know if going dockless increases ridership in any significant way?
The consumer benefits seem great but it seems like such a nightmare to
maintain compared to a docking system.

~~~
bradly
Yes, because docked bikes need to be done in cooperation with a city or
business to install a dock station. With dockerless, the streets where I live
have just been littered with bikes and scooters.

~~~
hunter23
A lot of regulators in the US are thinking about requiring dockerless systems
to coordinate with them now. Many cities don't want the littering issue.

------
bfuller
I live in the biggest dockless bike market currently and its an eyesore. Our
corrupt government has decided not to even think about making legislation
about the companies until September.

People are getting very sick of seeing them laying all around and its starting
to go the way of Paris, whose people rose up against the bike share companies
and got them to pull out through sheer vandalism.

Someone cut one in half and mounted it on a telephone pole the other day

~~~
baud147258
> the way of Paris, whose people rose up against the bike share companies and
> got them to pull out through sheer vandalism.

I think you're confusing the cause for the vandalism, it is much more
"casual", the bikes are vandalised because they are there and the companies
stupidly provided fragile bikes. Also the opposition from the city council did
not help.

~~~
bfuller
I'm not confusing anything. I can point you to many social media posts urging
people to vandalize them because they are annoyed at the bike share. The bikes
being absolutely littered everywhere does create a lot of opportunistic
vandals, but there FOR SURE is a concerted effort to fuck over the companies.

~~~
baud147258
I did not see any of these, but maybe it's because of my near-zero use of
social media. So I'll take your word for it, that some of the bike
degradations were caused to fuck the companies.

------
intrasight
I stopped road riding several years ago. It's just gotten too dangerous in my
opinion - probably due to smartphones. Unlike many European cities, ours are
and will likely remain geared towards cars only. That isn't going to change in
my lifetime. But if I'm wrong, and there are some US cities rebuilding their
roads to separate bikes and cards, please do let me know which ones.

------
syndacks
I think these bikes miss the mark on two major fronts:

\- Why do they need to be electric? Bicycles are phenomenally efficient, even
for people who aren't in "good shape." In SF you can find routes around the
really crazy hills. Furthermore, electric bikes reduce the barrier to entry
for douches to "go cruising". Every day (NYC) I almost get hit by one of these
things buzzing around. I'm sure these bikes are less powerful, but come on,
exercise!

\- Dockless. There is plenty of room for docks, USE THE ROADS. This video does
a great job showing how inefficient cars are with space:
[https://vimeo.com/223171024](https://vimeo.com/223171024). It's not right for
a company to co-opt public space with their bikes. These should be designed
into cities. It's not hard; make space.

~~~
bm1362
It's much harder to bike in SF without an electric assist. I biked for 2 years
in Seattle with no problems, moved to NYC and enjoyed the occasional trip over
the Williamsburg bridge. Now in SF and I've only tried to bike once. It was
fun bombing the hill outside but I immediately hit another hill and another..
I've essentially given up on riding here.

I use Jump regularly to run errands when I'm downtown and it's much easier to
pickup/drop off bikes than it would be worrying about my own expensive bike
getting stolen. These aren't quite dockless as they have to locked up properly
and are tracked by the app/gps.

------
throw15310
would be interesting to see what lyft does. spin? $8m raised, based in sf,
founded by lyft exec and yc alum

~~~
relation
I too have heard this rumor picking up steam in SV.

------
alangibson
I'm currently sitting in the Dutch city of Eindhoven. One of the first things
you notice when you get here is that there are not bike lanes, not bike paths
but very seriously bike roads on either side of the street. These are filled
pretty much all the time by people of all ages on their personal bikes. There
are no rental bikes anywhere. The moral of this story is that if you want
people to bike, build bikeable cities, don't fill sprawled out and hazard
filled cities with functionally useless rental bikes.

~~~
thiagocsf
I am in the city of Sydney, where no less than 4 dockless bike rental
companies started operating overnight.

They have become urban clutter. Users park them in locations where they’re
easily knocked over and, from there, they usually get damaged.

There’s also a very high incidence of vandalism. Bikes with no seats, no
pedals, bent wheels, on top of trees, in canals.

It’s common to see heaps of scrap bikes on the road. These companies not only
are using public land to offer their services but also polluting my city.

All this has made me a vocal opposer of dockless rentals. Work with city
council to put your bikes on a dock or don’t come here.

~~~
woolvalley
The dockless jump bikes seemed to be locked to something. I think it's a
requirement for riders to lock them after use, and so far, they haven't been
cluttering SF.

Maybe that is the compromise. No docks, but have to be locked to some sort of
normal bike rack to prevent clutter. The manufacturer / city isn't responsible
for maintaining expensive dock infrastructure where company A cant use company
B's docks, and apartments & businesses can create bike parking space in an
adhoc manner, making the over all market more efficient.

~~~
SOLAR_FIELDS
Do they have the same problem other bike rental companies have had in SF where
users ride them to the bottom of the hills where they just stack up?

~~~
woolvalley
I would think that ebikes would cause stacking at the top of hills, since it
does all the work for you :p

Being serious, I have no idea.

I think all bike systems will need rebalancing of some sort. Be it through
cheaper pricing or other incentives or something else.

------
frakkingcylons
It'd be nice if they can expand their subscription plan to more than low-
income users. Kind of sucks to pay $3 per ride no matter how often you use it.

------
kahnpro
I've seen these types of bikes around from time to time (in London), but
certainly not enough to consider them a reliable form of daily transport.
Whereas the station near my work, and near home, always has a healthy supply
of docked Boris bikes waiting for me.

Does anyone have experience with these?

------
r27d
Riding your bike to work was one of the only things that is the same in San
Francisco no matter what socioeconomic class you're a part of. Jump changed
that. Disappointing.

Everyone riding a bike used to deal with the same problems. Unfortunate as
those problems are they could happen to a rich person, a poor person, or
anyone in between which is an equitable sharing of the social cost. The
privileged people used to be able to easily spend more money to replace a
stolen bike which is the problem Jump solves for the people that can afford
it. That's now a bigger burden on the people who can't afford Jump and are
less likely to afford replacing a stolen bike at all.

~~~
Swizec
Is Jump really that expensive? Last time I used it, it cost something like $2.
It's cheaper even than the Ford bike shares.

Plus it can't get stolen.

I guess if you use it every day it does add up to a new cheapest walmart bike
every 45 rides. Hmm.

~~~
r27d
Personal e-bikes for $1000-2000 (same experience as Jump) can easily be under
$.25 per ride. I have 1000+ rides and 4500 miles on my $1800 ebike in under a
year and I could sell it for $1400.

~~~
Swizec
Yeah but if it gets stolen you're out $2000 and since you said Jump benefits
the not-poor, I assumed you meant "People who can't shell out $2000 on a
bike".

I also use a Boosted Board because I break even wrt Uber every 3 months or so.
But if I didn't have $1600 to spend on that purchase, then all the future
savings in the world wouldn't mean shit.

~~~
r27d
You should get renter's insurance ($8/mo) which covers your Boosted Board or
bike even when it is locked up somewhere other than your home.

------
r27d
Walk to a Jump location in the app and there's no bike? Take an Uber

Find your Jump hasn't been charged and is dead? Take an Uber

Jumps are a little more expensive after a price increase? Take an Uber

~~~
nugi
Aha! Someone found the value add!

------
username223
"Yet in recent months, Dallas has become ground zero for a nascent national
bike-share war, as five startups armed with hundreds of millions of venture
capital dollars have blanketed the city with at least 18,000 bikes." \--
[https://archive.is/kczBY](https://archive.is/kczBY)

It sounds like boom times for Dallas scrap dealers. No one who has ever been
to Dallas could ever think this makes sense: Dallas and Fort Worth are about
80 km in diameter, and unpleasantly hot and humid for about half the year. No
one wants to rent electric pseudo-scooters there.

~~~
bagacrap
It's true there's an extremely strong car culture in Dallas (and the rest of
Texas) for reasons of weather and geography. But the bike shares in Dallas are
concentrated in the denser areas full of boutiques, restaurants, museums, etc.
The idea is not to replace cars so much as allowing you to park once and then
get around on the bike.

The issue that's immediately apparent to anyone who actually goes there is
that the sidewalks are littered with dozens of bikes, most of which have
tipped over. The docks at least force you to keep the bikes somewhat organized
and out of the way.

------
mulmen
I can't figure out why e-bikes are considered bicycles and not mopeds or
motorcycles. How does this not require a drivers license, with or without a
motorcycle endorsement? Is the output limited (like the 50cc moped)?

Why are motorized vehicles allowed on bike lanes just because they have
electric motors instead of gas?

I'm also totally blown away by Seattle's disregard for helmet laws to enrich
some venture capitalists. We didn't even bother repealing the helmet law, we
just don't enforce it.

~~~
bhups
Re: the helmet laws, they've been shown to do more harm than good[1]. Helmet
laws suppress ridership, and riders tend to be safer when they're surrounded
by more bicyclists. This is why cities like Amsterdam and Copenhagen are
actually safer for riders despite having no helmet laws.

[1] [https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/04/how-
effective...](https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/04/how-effective-
are-bike-helmet-laws/521997/)

~~~
mulmen
Yeah I'm with you on the helmet laws. I'm not ok with the selective
enforcement. If they cause more harm than good we should repeal the law.

When I took the MSF class there was talk of repealing the motorcycle helmet
law for similar reasons. Not sure how I feel about that. It apparently came
with an automatic DNR provision if you crash without a helmet.

~~~
walshemj
And presumably automatic permission for reuse of organs

~~~
mulmen
There are potential religious conflicts there so I assume it would defer to
whatever the drivers license says. Not really sure. It seems strange to me
that we will just let people die because of the way they injured themselves,
seems arbitrary.

------
akskos
I first read "Uber enters dockerless" and thought that it's now cool not to
use docker :D

------
kchoudhu
I thought Uber was cutting back and focusing on core competencies?

~~~
tristanj
"Make transportation as reliable as running water, everywhere, for everyone."

~~~
kchoudhu
I look forward to Uber Airlines in that case.

~~~
itakedrugs
What would it take for a airplane to be able to pickup someone without
stopping?

~~~
nugi
The army figured this out in ww2 to extract soldiers and others. Using a
harness and pole attached to the rider, and catch cable attached to a plane,
the rider is plucked at speed into the air. Much like the old air-mail
systems. There are youtube videos of it.

------
beedogs
Of course Uber's doing another shitty thing.

Dockless bicycles in Melbourne are being thrown into the river at an alarming
rate, because people are sick of companies relying on littering in public as a
business model.

So of course Uber is joining the party.

~~~
tejasmanohar
Share bikes have a huge potential for the environment and overall, commute
efficiency. While there may be bad parts to start, I think there's plenty of
great parts to come.

------
joelrunyon
Can we only include non-paywalled articles? Hard to contribute to the
discussion when you can't read the content.

~~~
dang
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989)

Users often post workarounds in the threads (edit: as someone now has in this
one).

------
horsecaptin
Beginning of the end of Uber. Stay focused, stay hungry. Or perish.

------
ianamartin
Self-driving bikes probably have a lower fatality rate than cars. Maybe this
gives them some breathing room to improve their AI under-the-radar, so to
speak.

~~~
boxcardavin
How do you imagine a self-driving bike would work? (serious question)

~~~
ryanlol
You could gyro-stabilize it :)

