
The Apple Reaper - azcoastal
http://coovtech.com/posts/the-apple-reaper/
======
psychotik
File an appeal with the App Review Appeal Board (or whatever it's called).
It's pretty simple to do from iTunes Connect. Someone smarter than a robot
will look into it and get back to you (my IAP appeal took ~14 days, but they
did take precedent set by other apps into consideration and understood some
nuanced arguments, so they might know what Stripe/Square etc are and how it
matters)

------
cageface
I changed the summary text of my apps to say that I disagreed with Apple's
patent lawsuits and that I would be removing them from the app store once I'd
had a chance to distribute updates to existing users for any issues with iOS
6.

The next day my apps disappeared from the store with no notice or explanation.

I will _never_ invest in a platform with this kind of arbitrary, totalitarian
control again. Goodbye & good riddance Apple & good luck with your silly joke
of an IDE.

~~~
fpgeek
Not that I disapprove of the sentiment, but wasn't announcing the reason you
were dropping support the equivalent of waving a red flag in front of a bull?

~~~
cageface
Yes, but I thought they'd be professional enough to at least let me know they
were removing them from the store listings. Instead they just yanked them
without notice and let me deal with the customer fallout.

~~~
eridius
I'm pretty sure what you did was a very clear abuse of the description field
for your apps. When you very blatantly flaunt the rules and use them to
publicly insult your host, what exactly were you expecting to happen?

------
billycoover
Here's what I wrote in my appeal. I tried to speak in the most simple terms as
possible. I hope it works:

" The rejection states that "if the purchasable content, functionality, or
services are intended to be used within the app, they must be purchased
through IAP, within the app" - This is absolutely not the case. Pay Pad for
Stripe allows USERS to accept payments from their customers with their iPhone
& iPad. Nothing that the user is accepting payments for would be used within
the app.

Pay Pad for Stripe is companion app to the Stripe API
(<http://www.stripe.com>).

I am not selling anything inside of the app. There are no subscriptions inside
of the app. There is no exchange of a fee or subscription money between myself
and a Pay Pad for Stripe user. They cannot buy any content, products, or
services from my while inside the app.

The most straight-forward way I can describe how someone might use Pay Pad for
Stripe is this: My wife has a Stripe account which allows her to accept credit
card payments. She downloads Pay Pad for Stripe so that she can manage her
Stripe account and accept mobile payments. She takes our daughters to the
local grocery store to sell girl-scout cookies. A customer of hers want's to
buy a box of thin-mints. She uses Pay Pad for Stripe to take a credit card
payment from the customer for those thin-min cookies.

That's it. The feature is identical to what you will find in the popular
Square and Pay Pal apps. This is not in-app purchasing. This in enabling B2C
business transactions. There is no money exchanged between myself and the Pay
Pad for Stripe users. "

------
spaghetti
Honest question: why hasn't Apple fixed this fucking stupid review process?

They have the resources to pay cheap reviewers who are probably better than
this guy. I'm sure college kids with no job prospects would jump to "work at
Apple" even if it's making $10/hour reviewing apps.

Why not allow all apps into the store as long as they pass some security
checks done by Apple (no downloading executables etc)?

The current review process is just encouraging developers to look at
alternatives. Android for starters. I'm even spending time learning about
Firefox OS. If Apple would stop rejecting totally legit apps for "having
limited entertainment value" when my Mixpanel analytics say otherwise I
(unfortunately) wouldn't give a shit about Android or any other mobile OS.

~~~
ghshephard
Easy answer, spaghetti; Apple didn't build their review process for developers
first, they built it for their users and Apple Inc (not necessarily in that
order).

As a developer, I want free and easy access to the App store to upload my
apps.

As a user, I want a selection of the safest, highest quality, predictable and
elegantly design applications.

Apple Inc, as a for profitable organization, wants to ensure that they
maintain control over the various revenue lines (and ensuing profit).

It's the only rational profit-maximizing-response for an organization that has
their market dominance.

~~~
cageface
_As a user, I want a selection of the safest, highest quality, predictable and
elegantly design applications._

They've utterly failed to deliver that. They've been mostly successful in
limiting outright malware but the store is absolutely bursting at the seams
with cheap, crappy apps and scams. At this point they'd be better off
delegating malware detection to an algorithm and using their editorial control
to surface the good apps.

------
thechut
I don't understand how it is possible that Stripe is not allowed to have this
functionality but Square is. Certainly Square does not give 30% to Apple for
every swipe.

The cross-platform bit is interesting though. This should send a clear message
to developers that they should go with ANDROID FIRST.

~~~
asarazan
Square employs a significant number of ex-Apple guys. That might have
something to do with it :-)

~~~
josteink
So working with Apple means walled gardens _and_ corruption? That just makes
it sound so much better!

------
eridius
There's an app review board. I'm not sure of the exact procedure for getting
in contact with them, but it's basically the procedure for appealing a
rejection like this. I think there's an email address somewhere in the
developer portal.

 _Edit:_ This trend of running straight to social news sites (e.g. HN)
whenever something goes wrong is very strange. There are processes in place
for dealing with this problem, processes that thousands of people have used in
the past. Why would you go complaining publicly before even attempting to
resolve it using the normal methods?

~~~
spaghetti
In my experience the appeal board are just as stupid as the reviewer cited in
the post. It was like my app was evaluated by a random different reviewer.

Something is strange about the whole app review process. It's been problematic
for years. Apple could fix it if they had the incentive. IMO they do have an
incentive (more developers, more sales etc) but something else is preventing
the process from improving. Lately it seems like the review process is
becoming worse.

Perhaps it's company politics? The VP of whatever group is ultimately in
charge of hiring reviewers, adjusting policies etc may be standing in the way.
However given the explosion of the mobile ecosystem it seems unlikely that
organizational politics would come first.

One side note: for my last app that was reviewed and rejected multiple times
(once by the appeal board) it seemed like the reviewers were really trying
hard to make the app crash. I log almost everything users do in the app. Since
the only people with copies of the app were myself and Apple I could see the
reviewer(s) activity. If you've tested iOS apps that use even basic tableViews
populated with remote data you know that swiping vigorously, pushing and
popping viewControllers quickly etc can wring out some funny corner cases. It
seems like the reviewer was trying to find one as a pretense for rejecting the
app when the real reason was something they didn't want to say. Apparently
they didn't find anything and went with "app is just a re-packaged website
without enough native iOS functionality" when the entire app uses native iOS
features.

~~~
eridius
Are you actually complaining that the reviewer was performing some QA-like
functionality? That's surprising. You may also be misinterpreting. Quickly
going through an entire app (which is what I'd expect a reviewer [who's
actually testing the app] to do) is necessarily going to involve lots of
really quick pushes and pops of VCs and swipes and whatnot. So no, I don't
think the reviewer was trying to find some pretext to reject you. That doesn't
even make sense. Why would a reviewer need that?

~~~
spaghetti
Perhaps I did misinterpret. However the given reason for rejecting the app
suggests there's something else going on behind the scenes. "Your app doesn't
have enough native iOS functionality" is obviously BS when the app's primary
navigation is a tableView, uses the accelerometer and in general is filled
with native iOS functionality.

Maybe the app's use of Google maps was frowned upon because of some tense
relationship between the two companies. So instead of rejecting the app for
"using Google maps because we don't feel comfortable with that" the reviewer
tried to find a crash. When they couldn't they gave me the hilarious BS
reasons. Hence a pretense to reject the app could make the reviewer's life
easier.

------
hnriot
I hope Apple are reading this, possibly some of their trillions of cash
dollars would be spent on hiring people that have heard of paypal or square.
If they are in a decision making position, they should be equipped with the
necessary skills to perform their job. This is inexcusable of a company that
is so wrapped up in its mystique and brand image.

------
rizumu
"He recites 11.2 to me. I again attempt to explain in detail how the app
works, how Stripe works, and how we use Stripe with the various apps and
products we have. He stands firm."

I once had this argument with a tech over a macbook apple care repair. My
screen cable was broken, no display. They opened and found a coffe stain on
the case from many months prior. He said I had water damage. I asked what part
is damaged by the water. We must have went back and forth 20+ times on this
detail. Nothing was damaged by the water, they found an old stain on the case!

After shipping it to them twice with no repair, finally I cleaned it out
entirely with a qtip and took it to an authorized service center. Fortunately
the tech there was able to negotiate the claim for the busted cable.

Was it because I already have a few apple care repairs and was near the end of
my term? No, the phone operator was trained robotically to repeat the same
nonsensical phrase ad infinitum.

------
billycoover
Update: Apple reached out to me about this incident. They've approved the app!
[http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/pay-pad-for-stripe-for-
iphone...](http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/pay-pad-for-stripe-for-
iphone/id558387939?ls=1)

I'll update the blog post in the morning with details.

------
tisme
One observation: The landlord gets to screw with their tenants at his whim,
and you don't even have to expect minimum standards (such as basic
intelligence) in your interaction with them. This is part and parcel of
operating in a walled garden, and should be a conscious part of your decision
making process when you work out if you want to work this way (or not).

------
larrik
My guide app was recently rejected for being "simply a book." Seriously.
There's actually a "Books" section of the App Store (it's the first one, no
less!).

My only recourse? Publish it on iBooks, which requires an ISBN. Also, I've
never met anyone who's ever even opened the iBooks store.

------
scheff
I would have thought the solution is simple - release an extremely primitive
Android app of the same name and splash screen that says "Coming soon", and
report back to Apple "Yes, I have an Android version of my app."

~~~
billycoover
Lots fo suggestions for this one :)

------
robryan
I understand stripe and square if you aren't part of the SV echo chamber, but
PayPal? Where does Apple find these reviewers?

~~~
calvinlough
He probably exaggerated the responses when he made that transcription. Unless
he had an audio recording, it would be an easy thing to do, especially if he
was mad.

------
stevewilhelm
Reality check: the iTunes Store sales represent 4% of Apple total revenue.

As long as there is a sufficient selection of movies, music, and apps to keep
the iPhone compelling, Apple doesn't need to foster a "long tail" app
catalogue.

------
dlokshin
Wait, so if I build something on Android and iPhone, I don't have to use
Apple's in app purchase? I can use Stripe directly? Am I understanding this
correctly?

~~~
gsibble
You can use anything you want if you are not selling in app items. Think
Fandango. You are buying movie tickets. Do they use Apple's in-app purchase?
Heck no. But a game with virtual goods is required to.

That's the distinction.

------
jrochkind1
The REALLY weird thing is that "cross platform exemption."

This guy was NOT doing what that section of the ToS was meant to prohibit. But
let's say someone else had an app that really was, that was doing in-app
purchases without giving apple their 30% vigorish.... all you have to do is
make it for Android too, and Apple will let you?

Really?

Does this really work?

~~~
fpgeek
Maybe it works if your name isn't Amazon, Google, B&N, Kobo, Sony and so on?
(probably not)

------
wolfgke
Then don't do business with a dictator as Apple is. There have been enough
cases of "creative interpretations" of Apple's guidelines, against which you
have nearly no handle.

So you have to blame yourself.

------
pclark
just re-submit

~~~
khangtoh
I was going to say the same but not resubmit to the same application. Instead
create a new application and submit.

~~~
billycoover
Why would I create a new application?

~~~
mmackh
If you resubmit through creating a new app, it goes to a different reviewer.
Be sure to change the name of your old app before you delete it, so you can
still use the app name under the same account. Sometimes the new reviewers are
more understanding/ might not see a problem with apps that have been rejected
before.

E.g. my HN iphone app was rejected 2-3 times for "webviews stuff" or whatever.
Once I resubmitted, it had been approved the first time, plus it's been
received well by users.

~~~
awolf
You can't change the name of an app without submitting an update (anymore).

------
gfodor
Its things like this that are going to put Apple on the feds' radar enough to
cause them a lot of pain down the road.

------
michaelvillar
What's the feature exactly? :)

(Never heard of the multiplatform thing before.. seems like bullshit)

~~~
azcoastal
The feature is that it allows you take payments from anyone by having them
enter their CC, and deposit the funds as directed by your Stripe acct. Clearly
not in-app purchases. The functionality is similar to Square, without the
swipe.

~~~
michaelvillar
Indeed.

------
realrocker
I up voted just to make him care about it. Is that an evil thing to do?

------
vonwaldek
i read your blog post and feel as though your product is worth while to
continue spending time and effort on. i applaud efforts towards improvement

~~~
billycoover
Thanks for the feedback. The app has since been approved. Blog post updated
with details: <http://coovtech.com/posts/the-apple-reaper/>

------
jopt
False negative. Has since been fixed.

------
cooldeal
Well, I am just glad that Android, Windows Phone and Windows 8 store apps
don't have this stupid restriction if you don't use their payment systems.

Walled garden and 30% forced cut of app sales is one thing, but a forced 30%
cut of every in-app sale is like erecting a toll booth on all apps. Gruber's
explanation of "Apple does it because it can, and the people complaining are
just jealous that Apple can and they cannot" doesn't really fly.

This is one of the reasons that Apple is dragging its feet on making HTML5 web
apps work on par with native apps, despite Jobs' anti-Flash memo two and a
half years ago.

Edit: Sigh, looks like this submission is sinking on the HN front page due to
people flagging it for it being anti-Apple. Be classy, HN.

~~~
psychotik
"Well, I am just glad that Android, Windows Phone and Windows 8 store apps
don't have this stupid restriction if you don't use their payment systems."

The Android Developer TOS says that any other in-app payment system isn't
legal, and grounds for your app being removed from the app store.

I haven't studied it, but I suspect Microsoft's ToS will say something similar
too.

Edit: Android's DDA section 3.3 and 4.5 disallow using other payment
processors. [http://www.android.com/us/developer-distribution-
agreement.h...](http://www.android.com/us/developer-distribution-
agreement.html)

~~~
fpgeek
The language isn't as restrictive as you're suggesting. Here's the quote from
section 3.3: "All fees received by Developers for Products distributed via the
Market must be processed by the Market's Payment Processor. "

The key distinction is that this doesn't apply to products _not_ distributed
by the Market, like eBooks and mp3 hosted and sold externally (see: Amazon,
B&N, Kobo, ...). Hell, you can even buy physical goods via the Amazon Mobile
app (and others I'm sure).

------
batista
"Apple: “If your app is cross-platform, then 11.2 does not apply and this
problem goes away" Me: "Really, so if I build an Android version and launch
it, I’m good?" Apple: "Yes”

Is the above right? Doesn't seem to hold. If it is so, why does the Kindle app
still seem to obey the 11.2, despite being cross-platform?

~~~
mtgx
Hey, I for one am glad Apple is encouraging developers to build apps for
Android. Maybe developers will actually start developing for Android first,
considering this keeps happening, and worst case scenario, they remain with
the Android app, if Apple completely rejects it. If they have just the iOS
app, they might just give up for good.

The fact that Google has just made a Java 2 Object-C translator tool and that
there are now more Android devices in the wild than iOS devices, should be a
couple of nice incentives as well to build the Android app first.

~~~
maxd
yeah well except for the fact that you really dont make us any money. we make
android apps because we are expected to, not because its a good business
decision....

~~~
vetinari
That's rapidly changing: [http://www.swiftkey.net/android-catching-up-with-
iphone-on-p...](http://www.swiftkey.net/android-catching-up-with-iphone-on-
paid-apps)

