
Mist Showers: Sustainable Decadence? - howard941
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2019/10/mist-showers-sustainable-decadence.html
======
choeger
This is really getting ridiculous. By no means is water scarce in many regions
of the earth and while there is a certain amount of energy needed to heat the
water for a daily shower it is very simple to obtain from carbon-neutral
sources.

So yes, warm water consumption might be a thing in ever denser megacities, but
please stop to greenshame every single habit of an industrial society and
simply reconsider the typical source of energy. For small houses, solar
thermic or photovoltaic collectors should do just fine, for bigger ones,
consider distributed heat networks or small scale combined powerplants. And
should you live in an area, where water is indeed a scarce resource, make a
distinction between greywater and wastewater.

~~~
mikepurvis
I agree. A low-flow toilet still takes ~5 litres to flush; definitely the
obvious thing to do is capture the used shower/sink water into a reservoir
that then is used to flush the toilet throughout the day. If the reservoir is
inside, then even the energy used to heat the water is not lost, as it will
warm the house while the tank cools down.

But whenever I've looked into greywater capture systems, they seem mostly
focused on an outdoor storage drum with rain-barrel type applications in mind
(garden irrigation, etc).

I mean, the other option is just not to have a shower every single day. I know
the thought is horrifying to some, but a fully-grown adult can be perfectly
presentable on 2-3 showers a week.

~~~
throwaway123x2
I start stinking after ~18 hours no matter what deodorant I use.

~~~
cr0sh
Are you using deodorant, antiperspirant, or antiperspirant-deodorant? They are
different.

Deodorant is used to "cover up" or present a different odor; it's closer to
perfume or cologne, just in a different form.

Antiperspirant is used to keep you from perspiring; the most common form works
by simply clogging the pores (temporarily). By itself, it does nothing for any
other body odors.

Combine them (the last option) and you get the best of both worlds. The only
time you would use them separately is if in the first case, you have a
different form of antiperspirant that you like to use vs your deodorant, or
you have a particular perfume or cologne that doesn't go well together with
the antiperspirant you like to use. But most people can find a combo that
smells nice and works well for most of the day (and may even work well with
their perfumes/colognes).

All that said - if you are doing outdoor activities or hard labor, little to
nothing will work to stop things altogether, and honestly, 18 hours is pretty
good strength in my opinion.

But - if things are really problematic - talk to your doctor. Make sure it
isn't some physiological issue, or your diet (as recommended by another
poster), or anything else. As a last resort, there are drugs and even surgery
available for extremely severe issues (usually for those who perspire
uncontrollably throughout the day and night).

~~~
throwaway123x2
I've used combinations of all 3, and it hasn't really made a difference to be
honest. I'm ok with a shower a day and getting 18 hours of coverage - the
point I was making was that I still need a shower a day. A lot of people can't
get by with less without making people shuffle away from them in public.

------
authoritarian
I'll never understand why articles discussing environmentalism are always met
with a certain amount of comments where people seem to be angry, offended, or
otherwise upset as if they're being personally attacked. The police aren't
going to come around forcing you to give up your current shower. Spreading
awareness of ways to live one's life in a less wasteful well is a good thing,
and the emotionally charged negative comments are a step in the wrong
direction

~~~
simonsarris
> The police aren't going to come around forcing you to give up your current
> shower.

I mean, they did do that? Federal law from 1992 mandates the gpm flow of
shower heads. The law says:

> "all faucet fixtures manufactured in the United States restrict maximum
> water flow at or below 2.5 gallons per minute (gpm) at 80 pounds per square
> inch (psi) of water pressure or 2.2 gpm at 60 psi."

In 2005 the feds had to pay a visit to a shower head manufacturer last decade
to force them to stop producing non-conforming shower heads:
[https://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Seattle-says-
shower-...](https://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Seattle-says-shower-heads-
too-wet-1190772.php)

Literally the police aren't going to come around forcing _you_ to give up your
current shower, they're just forcing _all companies_ to produce and sell only
certain kinds of showers.

Why _wouldn 't_ a reasonable person who cares about something like this feel
personally attacked? They already _were_ attacked! There seems to be no reason
to assume that federal law that already exists around this issue won't tighten
more. In their eyes you're basically saying: "Why are people worried the
government will interfere with [things they've been interfering with for
decades]?"

(note I personally don't care about this issue, but it seems like there's
already a history of forcing XYZ on people here, so it seems natural that
people would resist further intrusion or whatever. "What if that's good" is a
separate argument.)

~~~
logfromblammo
Those manufacturers also write into their instructions " _DO NOT REMOVE_ this
easily-removed flow-restricting plastic washer, or drill its hole out to a
larger size, or your shower head will no longer conform to maximum flow rate
regulations (nudge nudge wink wink)."

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hashberry
I admire the passion the author has for mist shower tech, but the "carbon
footprint" is a tough argument, especially since we spend so much water
"showering" our lawns/yards.[0] That "rain showers" faucet looks pretty slick
and I think I might upgrade to that.

[0] Landscaping is the second largest component of water consumption in
California at 9% of total use. [https://priceonomics.com/california-lawn-
watering-economics/](https://priceonomics.com/california-lawn-watering-
economics/)

~~~
Klathmon
It's not about the water usage on it's own, but more about the energy usage
required to heat, treat, and transport the water.

According to the article "Hot water production accounts for the second most
significant use of energy in many homes (after heating), and much of it is
used for showering."

~~~
mcv
It's definitely about the heat, but it's also about the water usage on its
own. There are many places where fresh water is scarce. Cleaning water also
takes energy, and in some places, any kind of water is scarce.

------
VBprogrammer
I've had a recurring idea to build a water recycling shower. The idea being
the water is initially stored in a tank below the shower, pumped up through
the shower head and returned to the tank via the drain. A (hopefully) small
amount of hot water is added to the tank to maintain the temperature of the
water and to introduce more clean water. Some degree of filtering would
obviously be required on the return path, at the very least to remove hair
which would damage the pump but hopefully also removing soap suds etc.

I'm not sure if it would really work but it seems like it would be ideal for
some situations, for example in motorhomes, small yachts etc.

~~~
wlesieutre
There's an open source design of this at
[https://showerloop.org/](https://showerloop.org/)

~~~
VBprogrammer
Nice. I've tried searching for it before but clearly didn't get the right
combination of keywords. Mostly I've found people using the waste water to
pre-heat the supply (which itself is a good idea but doesn't solve the water
capacity problem).

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_Microft
Does anyone have experience with these nozzles and calcareous water? We get
chalky deposits on the kitchen sink, electric kettle, even the surface edge of
the fish tank (and that after blending the water for the fishes 1:1 with
collected rainwater) in no time and need to remove it frequently. The nozzles
look like as if they would be clogged after a few uses, especially as the
problem gets worse with warm/hot water. Anyone has experience with that?

~~~
bloopernova
When I owned my own house, I installed a set of filters that removed hardness
and various "bad things". Fix the problem upstream, so to speak.

In rented accommodation, it would depend on the landlord, unfortunately. (I'm
sure there are many great landlords out there, but there are also a lot of bad
ones who do the absolute minimum to avoid judicial penalties)

~~~
0xffff2
Is it possible to install a system that leaves you with "neutral" water? I've
looked a bit at filtering systems for my well, but they all seem to involve a
water softener and I'd much rather deal with the slight annoyance of hard
water than the infinite frustration of showing with soft water.

~~~
bloopernova
Adding: My filter system also had a Reverse Osmosis output for drinking water.

Our water was slightly soft to neutral for all other uses.

------
mrob
Increased comfort in exchange for increased risk of fatal lung disease sounds
like a bad trade-off to me. I think I'll stick with the Navy shower technique,
which is already comfortable enough so long as the shower room isn't too cold.

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equalunique
I really appreciate this article. It hasn't sold me on mist showers, but the
panorama of alternative showering techniques was eye opening. Maybe the Dutch
rain shower is for me.

~~~
vzidex
Having used rain showers at various fancy hotels, I am not a fan of them. The
ones I've experienced don't pressurize the water, they just let it fall on you
- the experience ends up being closer to standing in the rain than to a
shower, and that takes all the enjoyment out of it for me.

------
ttraub
A reasonable compromise might be one of the high efficiency shower heads that
have been around for decades, e.g. the Delta. These gadgets have been around
since at least the 1980s, come with an on-off switch to shut off the H2O while
you soap down, and cut the flow while increasing the intensity. It's almost
ideal. In fact I need to make a trip to the hardware store and pick up a
couple to replace the lame heads in our two bathrooms. These types of heads
simulate the mister experience but also spray the water quite intensely,
almost painfully, if that makes any sense :)

Regarding energy use, it seems to me that solar thermal is the way to go; you
can keep your tank pretty hot during the day and if it's properly insulated,
should minimize energy use at night. If you're showering early in the morning,
though, you'll probably be burning some fossil fuel, but if you can time your
showers to be mid-day or evening, would be optimal.

In Phoenix, probably every fifth house has solar hot water; it just makes
economic sense. When we traveled in the Middle East (mainly Israel), _every_
house and apartment building seemed to have solar hot water. If it makes
economic sense (and the tax credit also helps), people will adopt it. I'd be
reluctant to support some kind of mandated regulatory approach that forces a
less pleasant shower experience on everyone; as others here have mentioned,
the shower is one of life's great luxuries.

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Jamwinner
I recall bucky fuller always had mist showers in his future home demos. He
always said, and it stuck with me, that his ideas were not for his lifetime,
but for when humanity needed them. I think we would do well to catalog these
type of ideas for periodic revisitation as the world inevitably changes.

------
hanoz
Sounds like a recipe for Legionnaires' Disease to me.

~~~
oehpr
No doubt a mister would basically guarantee you'd aspirate the bacteria if
your hot water tank was contaminated. But I'm having difficulty seeing how you
wouldn't also aspirate the bacteria with a shower head anyway. Are there a
bunch of homes who take showers with legionaries contaminated water that
manage to avoid infection?

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crazyjncsu
Thanks, but I'll stick with my Commando 450:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMITcQUe-9M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMITcQUe-9M)

But seriously, even I get concerned with the green movements when they seem to
be coming for each part of my life I hold sacred-- a nice warm shower (or
two!) is a highlight of my day.

And to rationalize: I am also constantly looking for ways to reduce energy
usage, so I looked into capturing the heat lost from a shower. First I
measured the difference in the shower head outlet temperature and the drain
temperature. I found about 75% of the heat is released before even entering
the drain. So it goes into my body (yay), the air, or the floor system. I
suspect the majority of the next 25% is released in the drain system that is
either part of the conditioned space of the house or in the semi-conditioned
crawlspace. So the heating cost/fuel of the water is offsetting my HVAC
cost/fuel. Additionally, the shower boosts humidity which is the #1 energy
efficient method of feeling warmer in a cold, dry house.

Notes: If you can leave the water to cool down by not draining a tub, you'll
gain even more. Or take a bath.

If you're using electricity to resistant-heat your water (highly inefficient),
you should address that first.

This doesn't apply in the summer, so I bathe in the outdoor pool, usually.

~~~
authoritarian
>even I get concerned with the green movements when they seem to be coming for
each part of my life I hold sacred-- a nice warm shower (or two!) is a
highlight of my day.

How is this article an example of "coming for each part of your life" you hold
sacred? Did they state, or even imply, anywhere in the article that they were
going to go around and force people to be environmentally conscious?

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sterkekoffie
Can anyone brighter than me tell me the more specific names of the "brass mist
nozzles" and "6mm hose adapter"?

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orliesaurus
I love the idea, being aware that long showers are detrimental to our planet
and all!

However, IMHO, there are things we could do that would impact energy savings
on a 100x scale compared to showering with a mist shower. First thing that
comes to mind, those hundreds of big offices in every city, that keep their
lights on, on every floor (!!), every single night.

~~~
Cthulhu_
Whataboutism and power consumption is not equivalent to water consumption.
That said, IDK what city you live in, but most offices I know have energy-
efficient lighting (used to be TL, nowadays LED) and motion sensors.

If you do want to make a "what about" point though, highlighting how consumers
only use a relatively small percentage of power compared to companies - think
any IT company with datacenters, large scale shipping, but also Bitcoin and co
- and shaming individuals into stuff like using less water, going vegetarian
or change their bulbs is putting the blame in the wrong direction.

~~~
coldpie
> highlighting how consumers only use a relatively small percentage of power
> compared to companies - think ... large scale shipping

It's actually not as lopsided as you think. Passenger vehicles in the US emit
more carbon than all freight trucks, trains, ships and airplanes combined.
Here is a good breakdown of the sources of emissions in the US from the EPA.
It's very much worth a read. [https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-
greenhouse-gas-emis...](https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-
gas-emissions#transportation)

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reeddavid
I have followed the crowdfund-launched Nebia shower, which looks like a
similar mist technology: [https://nebia.com](https://nebia.com)

I’ve been curious about it, but it’s kind of hard to try a permanently
installed plumbing fixture without buying it.

~~~
aza05001
I have 3 of these installed in my house. they are pretty amazing. Wouldn't go
back to a conventional shower head.

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Dirlewanger
Mist showers may be OK for people with short hair, but it's a no-go for those
with long hair. You need a decent amount of flow/water pressure to be able to
get all shampoo/conditioner out.

~~~
kaikai
I don’t have long hair anymore but also read through this and thought, “this
guy must have a shaved head.”

In order to rinse hair clean, you need quite a bit of water. If the shower is
too low-flow (like dorm or gym showers often are in California), it takes much
longer to do a good job, which kinda defeats the purpose of saving water.

~~~
logfromblammo
Shaved head _and_ sparse body hair. Even if you aren't that hirsute yourself,
try washing a dog with an extra-low-flow showerhead. It's a miserable
experience for everyone.

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RickJWagner
I wonder if those plastic tubes get moldy after a while...

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mberning
I don't understand the obsession with sending civilization back to the stone
age for the sake of "sustainability". I like hot showers. I would rather focus
on new technology that makes producing fresh hot water in abundance nearly
free and with minimal impact to the environment.

~~~
icebraining
The question is whether we can keep our current lifestyle until such
technology exists.

