
Printed Electronics (2016) - barelyusable
http://thinfilm.no/technology-printed-electronics/
======
devrandomguy
Imagine if this technology was available as inkjet cartridges. The potential
for decentralization of electronics manufacturing, is staggering. So is the
potential of electronics at the price of fancy photo paper. We would finally
be in a position to begin replicating the open source software revolution, in
electronics. The power of the hardware manufacturing giants would melt away.

High performance, nanometer-scale silicon would obviously still have to be
manufactured the classic way, because, nanometers. But, instead of buying a
precious tablet, you order a ribbon of of peel & stick wafers, of commodity
CPU and RAM chips. You then stick them onto a printed, flexible nv-mem +
screen to enable it to compute at modern speeds.

As people get used to disposable, custom electronics, they learn that for most
of what they do with a single sheet of "paper", they actually need very little
computing power. Rugged, cheap, micrometer-scale CPUs make a comeback. Kids
study them in grade school, using an ordinary optical microscope. IC designers
start to optimize for readability. The general public begins to take
responsibility for their hardware and software stack, the way they take
responsibility for their vehicle and their home.

/dream

~~~
StavrosK
This isn't really that much different from etching your own PCB. You just
print the circuit on a laser printer, stick it on a copper board, pour some
etchant and that's about it.

Of course, you then have to solder the components, which is a time-consuming
and difficult process, what with the size of electronics these days. Most
components' pads are a fraction of a square millimeter.

EDIT: I may be misunderstanding your point, as the article talks about printed
displays etc, but I don't see how you could just get an inkjet cartridge that
would allow a home printer to create a display...

~~~
xg15
> _[...] pour some etchant [...] solder the components_

I think that's where the differences would start for most people. In the
parent's vision, you could assemble complex PCBs using ordinary office
supplies and with little knowledge except about the circuit you want to build.

Today, you'd at least need a dedicated hobbyists' level of space, tools, and
knowledge how to use the tools safely.

~~~
blacksmith_tb
Unless your printer was just spitting out downloaded circuits, I am skeptical
that you'd reach the masses. Already the Arduino et al. has helped to let
people make electronics via more software and less hardware, and even that
doesn't mean that there's one in every home.

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ChuckMcM
Wow, this is pretty much 90% of the value of the old Plastic Logic business
(are these guys related?)

Sad that they are spinning it as a physical products DRM although I certainly
understand how that it is unique there. Cheap challenge/response
authentication that even if you have all the materials and the printer you
can't duplicate without the crypto secrets. Its a much better gizmo that a
hologram sticker.

That said, I'd love to see them add OLEDs so that you can print a 'picture'
and drop it on a table and have it light up. The signage options there would
be pretty awesome too.

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sgt
So how far we from being able to use this technology on a prototype basis and
quickly (and cheaply) print electronics at home or at the office?

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leggomylibro
Huh. The site isn't completely clear; could this sort of technology cheaply
print custom silicon layers, like ICs and some types of components? If so,
that would be amazing. If I could print a to-spec FET, a 555 die, some BJTs, a
handful of film resistors to +/\- 1%...

Well baby, you got yourself a stew!

~~~
TD-Linux
Most "printed" electronics mean either organic semiconductors, which generally
have poor performance but are very cheap to print and flexible. This company
also offers polysilicon, which is generally more expensive but is higher
performance - it's used for TFT displays, for example. Both of these are
usually patterned, so it's more for volume production that one-off like 3d
printing.

I am not actually sure what the benefits of sheet-based logic are - RFID is
obvious, but existing vendors prefer tiny, inflexible monocrystalline silicon
dies instead. Are the Thinfilm RFID tags cheaper?

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Leynos
Here are details (from 2015) of the collaboration with Xerox mentioned on the
Thinfilm page: [https://venturebeat.com/2015/01/21/thinfilm-teams-with-
xerox...](https://venturebeat.com/2015/01/21/thinfilm-teams-with-xerox-so-it-
can-print-a-billion-chips-a-year-for-the-internet-of-things/)

They describe being able to print memory, with logic planned in the future.
They also talk about commercializing and scaling the process.

Rights management for physical goods seems to be the most commonly touted
usecase for this. Another example usecase I have heard mentioned is a
thermometer and an indicator that changes colour to indicate spoilage that can
be printed into the label of temperature sensitive goods.

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tiredwired
New chip fab in San Jose, CA: [http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/05/08/san-jose-
gets-new-pote...](http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/05/08/san-jose-gets-new-
potentially-revolutionary-chip-fab/)

~~~
Leynos
For those in the know, how does the cost of 12-15¢ for an NFC chip compare
with what a packaging company would pay now?

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swampthinker
If this is cheaper than RFID tags, I'm seriously considering starting a
company around selling a fridge device that could keep track of food that had
a tag printed on them.

The Jetsons fridge that has always been promised, but never made. A fridge
that could buy your food for you!

~~~
Udik
I think it was never made because it's useless. I know perfectly what's in my
fridge. The problem is in deciding what's still edible and then maybe go for
some grocery shopping.

~~~
workerIbe
Then explain why you keep opening it, wasting energy, to look for some
nonexistent goodies.

~~~
Udik
For the same reason I keep opening Hacker News :)

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PinguTS
There are other companies in this field too. Right next town here is PolyIC
who does printed circuits for years for use as touch buttons, printed RfID,
and alike. [http://www.polyic.com/](http://www.polyic.com/)

------
ChefDenominator
TPM?

Standard critique of TPM includes pointing out that manufacture is a black box
of trust. The ability to completely control both software and hardware seems
like it would make this scheme more desirable.

------
jlebrech
now if the top layer could be a display and the other 6 layers are the rest of
the computer.

I'd create a cube of all those sandwiched together.

~~~
Mtinie
To mitigate against the concern of parasitic capacitance raised by @pmoriarty,
I would decouple the display layer from the computational layer using a
shielding substrate.

You could get a very similar effect to what you're proposing if you used a
future-version of a flexible OLED screen like the ones that LG[1] (and others)
are beginning to produce. It's not exactly the case (yet) where you could
fabricate it at home with your super cool electronics inject printer. It is,
however, definitely a step in the right direction for giving enterprising
people the ability to create open-source and bespoke tablets, phones, and
other media devices that previously were only within the reach of very well-
funded companies.

\---

[1]
[http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/business/2015/05/19/80/05010...](http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/business/2015/05/19/80/0501000000AEN20150519006000320F.html)

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amelius
What is the pitch of this technology?

~~~
Neeek
Reading the sample use cases on the site makes it seem like smarter DRM is the
pitch :(

------
tmaly
It must be too early, but I am failing to see the major benefits here.

Is it cheaper and more durable?

~~~
astrodust
If you can "print" circuits instead of having to image them one wafer at a
time that could be a big throughput boost.

My guess is they can't do 10nm or anything competitive with it yet, so it's
only suitable for displays and such.

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Animats
The application seems to be cheaper RFID tags.

~~~
devrandomguy
> Ideal for simple indicator displays

Looks to me like just about any low frequency, low power circuit is a
possibility.

~~~
Animats
Low density, too. Not for rolling out flash memory by the mile.

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Kliment
Fucking terrible that what they considered the number one item to mention on
that page is how many patents they hold, rather than what the thing is, does,
or is good for.

~~~
desdiv
It's a form of signaling[0]. In this case, it means: "Like you what you see
here? Well unfortunately we can't sell it to you since we don't have the
manufacturing capacity. So you'll have to license our IP so you can build it
yourself."

Case in point, Xerox licensed their IP and is already putting units in the
field[1].

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_\(economics\))

[1] [http://www.packagingdigest.com/brand-protection/smart-
label-...](http://www.packagingdigest.com/brand-protection/smart-label-with-
memory-strengthens-pkg-authentication1606)

------
runeks
> Xerox opening 1.3Billion unit plant in early 2016

Sounds like the site needs an update.

~~~
agumonkey
"printed memory needs a refresh"

~~~
TeMPOraL
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a human face booting on a stamp
forever."

([https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/10/17/the-moral-of-the-
story...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/10/17/the-moral-of-the-story/),
CTRL+f for "By 2050")

~~~
ChefDenominator
"CTRL+f" \- you sound like a Chrome loser. (o;

~~~
TeMPOraL
I almost wrote C-s, but decided against it for the sake of people here who are
not fluent in Emacs-speak.

Also, don't Firefox, Opera and IE use CTRL+f as well?

~~~
ChefDenominator
Firefox has an option to search text when you start typing.

------
khoury
test

