
Apple Edge Cache - bwilliams18
https://cache.edge.apple
======
revertts
Those traffic requirements are fairly steep - perhaps it will come down as the
program matures.

If you're interested in similar edge cache programs:

[https://openconnect.netflix.com/en/](https://openconnect.netflix.com/en/)

[https://www.facebook.com/peering/](https://www.facebook.com/peering/) (though
I don't see FNA specifically mentioned there)

[https://peering.google.com/#/options/google-global-
cache](https://peering.google.com/#/options/google-global-cache)

[https://www.akamai.com/us/en/products/network-
operator/akama...](https://www.akamai.com/us/en/products/network-
operator/akamai-network-partnerships.jsp)

[https://peering.azurewebsites.net/peering/Caching](https://peering.azurewebsites.net/peering/Caching)

[https://www.cloudflare.com/partners/peering-
portal/](https://www.cloudflare.com/partners/peering-portal/)

~~~
grecy
A neat secret about these cache devices is ISPs that charge for usage. The
data the customers use comes straight from the ISP's Central Office, not from
"The internet" at all.

~~~
gregmac
My parents have a (crappy) wireless internet provider. During most evenings
and weekend, they're lucky to get even 0.5Mbps. At the same time, Netflix
works fine, and the speed on fast.com (Netflix-run) will be a few Mbps (I
don't remember exactly). In the daytime on weekdays, they usually get a few
Mbps from any speed test and generally everything feels fast.

This lets me deduce the ISP is way over-subscribed on their upstream internet
connection, but also has a Netflix appliance.

What's frustrating is if they complain enough, the company will send a tech
out who will "adjust" their antenna, or suggest it's a line-of-sight problem
and they need a bigger tower, should cut down some trees, etc.

~~~
Reason077
> _" My parents have a (crappy) wireless internet provider. During most
> evenings and weekend, they're lucky to get even 0.5Mbps."_

Sounds like my experience on Three UK here in London. Just awful! Vodafone and
O2 are at least 20X faster at peak times despite Three actually having a
significantly stronger 4G signal at my flat. Absolute joke of a network. I'm
so angry that I was basically tricked into a 12 month contract with them.

~~~
martinald
The problem with Three is they don't have enough spectrum especially in
densely populated areas, they definitely have invested a lot in backhaul
capacity. 99% of cellular data problems are nothing to do with backhaul or
peering, it's spectrum usage.

Some good news: they are aggressively rolling out SDL (supplementary downlink)
which will really improve things. They also announced today their 5G network
(which has by far the most spectrum of all UK carriers) has went live. I would
expect insanely good speeds on that network.

But yeah, turns out selling unlimited data/tethering/roaming/text/minutes for
as low as £11/month isn't a good business strategy.

Generally though: EE is good everywhere. Vodafone is good in North London, O2
better in South London. Three generally awful everywhere.

~~~
renaudg
Three’s 5G has actually been running since last summer : I should know, I was
in one of the pilot areas in London and signed up for their home broadband
offering on day one.

No complaints, 100-300Mbps on average. They seem to have done great at the 5G
spectrum auctions, they’re the only UK carrier with 100+ Mhz.

I’m also using them for mobile 4G and yes that’s often awful, as others are
reporting. I should probably switch to giffgaff (safer to use different
providers anyway in case Three has a catastrophic outage), but Three’s "Feel
at home" free roaming in many countries beyond the EU (including the US) is
super handy and has no equivalent that I know of.

~~~
Reason077
> _" Three’s 5G has actually been running since last summer : I should know, I
> was in one of the pilot areas in London and signed up for their home
> broadband offering on day one."_

But this is not really the Three network. It's a separate network with a
different network ID and cannot be accessed with ordinary Three devices/SIM
cards.

It's based on the network formerly known as "Relish", which was bought by
Three in 2017. The areas covered by Three Broadband's 5G are basically exactly
the same areas which were always covered by Relish. They just upgraded the
equipment to use 5G radio.

Relish held a lot of spectrum in the 3.5 Ghz (n78) band. Three, by arrangement
with OfCom, added Relish's holding to their own 3.5 Ghz spectrum won at
auction to give them the contiguous 100 Mhz.

There is an additional 200 Mhz of 5G spectrum being auctioned this year, which
should bring the other operator's 5G holdings up to comparable levels with
Three's:

[https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/ofcom-to-hold-
next-5g-spec...](https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/ofcom-to-hold-
next-5g-spectrum-auction-in-spring-2020)

~~~
exikyut
> _But this is not really the Three network. It 's a separate network with a
> different network ID and cannot be accessed with ordinary Three devices/SIM
> cards._

I'm not in the UK and ask purely out of curiosity, but what SIM/configuration
do you use then?

~~~
Reason077
They provide a 5G home router (Huawei 5G CPE Pro), with a SIM card specific to
the Three Broadband (formerly Relish) network.

------
radicaldreamer
The home/small business version of this is included with every installation of
OS X: [https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/what-is-content-
cac...](https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/what-is-content-caching-on-
mac-mchl9388ba1b/mac)

Popular app and OS updates can be cached on a local Mac, with the recommended
machine being on the network using a wired connection and always connected
(desktop/Mac mini)

~~~
shiftpgdn
If you're a sysadmin you need to take an old mac mini and put this on your
wifi or guest wifi network. It alleviates so many support tickets on iOS
update release days.

~~~
EricE
This! Instead of being a dick and blocking updates just cache 'em!

~~~
duxup
Do people notice if you block updates on say a work wi-fi?

I'm thinking more generally userbase wise and not quite the tech centric crowd
we have here on HN.

I would expect most people wouldn't notice.

------
mcintyre1994
This seems smart. Presumably it initially gives everyone a better experience
with App Store apps, and over time becomes critical infrastructure for Apple
TV+ in the same way Netflix use caches in ISPs.

~~~
ehsankia
Definitely critical for Apple TV+ if they want to compete with Netflix and
Youtube. Though both of those together account for a quarter of the total
bandwidth on internet, I'm not sure if Apple TV+ is anywhere close to that
yet, but long term planning here.

~~~
ohmaigad
Unless there is some kind of limitation for the 1 year free AppleTV+ offer
(when buying a new device) it is a terrible service and not even a competitor
to Netflix. The prices for movies are abnormal - Predator (a 23 year old
movie) is 4.99EUR for rent. For comparison a small market (<2mil people) local
streaming service offers the same movie for rent for 1.90EUR.

~~~
yreg
You are complaining about iTunes prices, that's unrelated to Apple TV+.

Apple TV+ costs a flat fee for unlimited access to (for now very limited)
collection of original content. Surely they plan to launch more shows.

------
MBlume
Dumb question -- how does this work with SSL? Is Apple putting their private
keys on these boxes and assuming the ISPs can't/won't extract them?

~~~
snowwrestler
Lots of people answering the technical question, but I have to wonder: why do
you think ISPs would break into Apple's equipment just to extract private keys
securing media files and software downloads? Do you think ISPs are typically
in the business of violating the contracts and security of their partners?
What would they gain by doing so?

Note that I understand the importance of securing private keys in general. I'm
just asking about ISPs because you specifically mentioned them.

~~~
cure
It's not the ISPs themselves, necessarily. You have a box that you own and
that sits in someone else's network, where their security policies and
practices apply. Those policies and practices are not going to be the same as
yours. Perhaps more importantly, other people have physical access to the
hardware. That includes employees of the ISP, but perhaps also 3rd parties
(think multi-tenant datacenter, for example). That's why you should treat that
box as being in a hostile environment.

------
jedberg
I hope this isn’t the same CDN they use for the App Store.

I’ve never seen a download from the store faster than about 50 megabits per
sec even on a gigabit line.

~~~
reggieband
This appears to be additional to CDNs. Apple is saying they will put their own
servers directly into ISPs data centers as a cache for content requests that
would normally go to a CDN. So the path for downloading data would go from
your computer to your ISP and if the data you requested is cached on your ISPs
Apple Edge Cache server then it wouldn't even go to a CDN. This is an attempt
to address your complaint which may well be caused by slowness of traffic
between the CDN and your ISP.

~~~
jedberg
CDNs already use servers in your local ISP. That’s how they speed things up.
This is no different than how Akamai or Netflix or Cloudflare builds their
CDN. Most likely these Apple edge servers sit in cabinets and network segments
adjacent to those other CDNs.

~~~
reggieband
Sure, that is the best case scenario. Apple using it's own servers would have
several advantages including they would presumably be able to tune/seed the
cached content based on superior knowledge of consumption. They also wouldn't
be competing for the same limited CDN space as others.

Not to be flippant, but I recognized your name and when I visited your bio I
see you now work at Netflix. You could probably find an excellent answer as to
why Apple would choose to start its own program rather than rely on existing
CDN colocation by asking your internal team why Netflix does the same. My
guess, without inside knowledge, is it is a combination of price and
performance.

~~~
jedberg
I know why Netflix does what it does, I helped build it. :)

What I'm saying is that Apple is probably already doing the same thing (using
their own servers in colocations). They're just opening it up to the public
now.

~~~
reggieband
Well, edge cache doesn't appear to be brand new (I found
[https://www.c8k3.com/blog/caching-in-apples-new-cache-
progra...](https://www.c8k3.com/blog/caching-in-apples-new-cache-program)
which dates from Dec 2019) but it does appear to be an analogue to programs
like the one you helped build at Netflix. So while they probably have been
doing this in some limited fashion (e.g. through direct outreach), it is
entirely possible your own ISP wasn't included. Hopefully your download speeds
will increase if/when your ISP signs up for the program.

I'm not sure what you mean that this is being "opened up to the public now".
This seems to be limited to ISPs as far as I can tell. I'm not sure who, other
than an ISP, would be doing 25Gb/s of Apple-content related traffic.

------
clopez
And the question is... Do this "Apple certified server-side network
appliances" run on Mac or Linux?

~~~
Thaxll
Obviously Linux since no one uses mac server side, Even Apple doesn't use mac
for their online services.

~~~
scarface74
What are they using to run WebObjects then? AFAIK, iTunes and the App Store
still run on WO.

~~~
favorited
The Java implementation of WebObjects runs on Linux.

[https://wiki.wocommunity.org/display/documentation/Deploying...](https://wiki.wocommunity.org/display/documentation/Deploying+on+Linux)

------
vinay_ys
With 25Gbps minimum peak, it seems like this is targeted at game apps (which
load heavy assets) or short videos apps (which load 10-20MB video assets). If
they have streaming capability, then probably more apps can take advantage of
it.

For all other apps (which load static image assets and much smaller dynamic
response payloads), meeting 25Gbps minimum peak is going to be a challenge.

Let's do some rough math. Let's say your app needs to load 10MB of assets in
every user session. Let's say your user's network speed is not a constraint.
Then least number of concurrent users needed to drive 25Gbps of traffic is
25Gbps/10MB = 313 new user sessions per second. If you want to sustain this
for 5 minutes or so to register as peak 313 users/second * 5 minutes = 93900
concurrent apple user sessions. Let's say your users realistically have 10Mbps
of speed, we will have to multiply 93900 with 8 (because it takes 8 seconds to
load 10MB with 10Mbps speed)!

~~~
Slartie
I think you got the use case of such edge caches wrong. You don't get one of
those for a single app. Most companies who participate in such edge cache
programs don't even have apps. These are boxes that internet service providers
plug into their networks, usually close to their customers, hence the name
"edge cache". The edge cache owner then routes user requests for big and
static content (video streams, large apps, OS updates, stuff like that) coming
from networks equipped with edge caches to the caches located within their
networks instead of a third-party CDN or the cache owners own server farms,
effectively reducing the traffic that particular ISP has to route through to
the edge cache owner. It is this aggregate traffic that has to meet a 25Gbps
peak minimum to qualify for getting an Apple edge cache.

------
pier25
Off topic... but there are .apple domains now?

~~~
ignoramous
Google does too: [https://domains.google](https://domains.google) (registrar),
[https://dns.google](https://dns.google) (public-dns, supports DoH and DoT),
and [https://ai.google](https://ai.google).

I wish there was something up at
[https://google.google](https://google.google) or
[https://apple.apple](https://apple.apple)

~~~
jon-wood
Google also own .new which seems like the sort of ridiculously expensive
experiment only one of the big startups with cash to burn would do. It allows
you to type docs.new or sheets.new (etc) into your address bar and instantly
get an empty document.

Sadly it always defaults to the first logged in user, which makes it almost
entirely useless to me.

~~~
dannyw
You can also type design.new to get a Canva design.

------
kbenson
> The program is by invitation only.

> If your business meets these requirements, request an invitation.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of being "invitation only" which, to me at
least, implies the other party knows who they want to invite? That is,
invitation only implies hand picked, or pre-chosen by some prior criteria to
me. If it's exclusive to select ISPs that meet the criteria and they have to
apply, why not just say that instead of the using wording that requires
additional explanation to get past people's likely initial interpretation?

~~~
dagmx
It's a "Hey can I come to your party?" and "I'll think about it and get back
to you if you can" versus a "I'm coming to your party despite not being asked"

~~~
kbenson
I know what they're trying to do, it just feels amateurish and jarring because
cause it's jamming two concepts that are somewhat opposed together.

The whole point of saying the party is invitation only _is so random people
don 't ask you to come_.

I think the normal way this is normally done is to say "we're being very
selective with who we partner with at this point. Please apply if you think
you qualify and we'll get back to you."

That they've chosen not to do the obvious seems purposeful, and that it was
done so jarringly on purpose is odd.

------
snek
This launched around December of 2019. It is the same service that companies
like Google[1] and Akamai[2] have provided for a while.

[1]: [https://peering.google.com/#/options/google-global-
cache](https://peering.google.com/#/options/google-global-cache)

[2]: [https://www.akamai.com/us/en/products/network-
operator/akama...](https://www.akamai.com/us/en/products/network-
operator/akamai-network-partnerships.jsp)

------
ksec
Questions.

Why now? Apple has had hundred of Millions iOS users for years and fast
approaching a billion. Why didn't they do this earlier? Or they did but it
wasn't public ?

What are the chances this is a Mac Pro rack, even though it is highly unlikely
to be running on macOS ?

Do they Cache iCloud Backup, Photos and upload with these Edge Appliance? Same
as macOS Server?

------
fmajid
This is for large consumer ISPs, obviously, but Mac OS X Server used to have
an optional cache feature for iOS apps and OS X software updates that was
relevant for enterprise and campus networks (or even a home network like mine
with a 3:1 iDevice to human ratio...)

------
pdimitar
I am absolutely not informed on the dynamics of these technologies and
business agreements so pardon my ignorance.

Q: are you getting paid for allocating such a cache? Or should you feel
honoured that Apple thinks you are eligible to freely distribute their
content?

------
jonplackett
Are Apple credible to offer this? The AppStore loads slowly if at all a lot of
the time on my Mac. And isn’t exactly spritely on my phone either.

------
NetBeck
It would be cool if they used the Xserve chassis.

------
siteshwar
Doesn't it break net neutrality ?

~~~
jrockway
This is not related to net neutrality. Typically the way things work is that
your end-user ISP is connected to a "Tier 1" or "Tier 2" ISP. Then the website
you want to visit is also connected to an ISP in a similar manner. To get
packets from the end user to the website, the traffic has to transit over the
Tier 1 and Tier 2 ISPs. Those ISPs do not offer this service for free. To
lower costs and potentially improve latency, many websites are happy to
connect directly to the end-user's ISPs.

Imagine that your Internet service is just an Ethernet cable that goes to a
router in a datacenter. This is Apple offering to plug their servers into that
router. Now you can get to their servers without going out to "the Internet"
via a Tier 2 or Tier 1 ISP. That is where the word "internet" comes from --
interconnected networks. More connections is more internetting.

This is all super common. Many big companies are happy to peer with small ISPs
if they're already in the same building.

Edit to add: The edge cache thing that this article is about is similar, but
not quite the same as what I'm describing. Instead of connecting you to their
network, they just put some of their servers in the same datacenter as your
network. Even less latency!

~~~
FortCollinsDev
Fantastic explanation. I actually have an exam on this next Friday.

------
jbverschoor
Step X of competing with aws, gcp, azure. Arm cpus Serverside swift
Foundationdb They’re spending way too much on aws for iCloud, and probably i*
distribution

------
jakobmi
Do they get paid to host this? How much?

~~~
cube00
I doubt it, they get "paid" by not having to pay for upstream data charges
while still charging their downstream consumers.

------
mikl
Nice to see them use the .apple TLD.

------
david-cako
EdgeCompute coming soon I suppose.

------
forgotmyhnacc
I'm confused why ISPs would do this for free. Why doesn't Apple just colo like
other CDNs do?

~~~
revertts
Because it saves them money on transit costs. The Internet Peering Playbook is
a good resource if you want to learn about some of the economics behind
programs like this one
([http://drpeering.net/core/bookOutline.html](http://drpeering.net/core/bookOutline.html)).

Edit: the flip side of this relationship is also interesting - if Apple or
whoever doesn't offload enough of their traffic to the rack, then it isn't
cost effective and can really annoy the ISP. I've known some ISPs to boot
these caches out of their network when the related company wasn't utilizing it
effectively.

~~~
dfox
The question here is why you would host such a device for free instead of just
having SFI peering with apple (which is apparently required in this program).
I suspect that the incentive there has mostly nothing to do with transit costs
and is mainly about capacity planing inside the ISP's network and thus with
fixed hardware and infrastructure costs. (ie. SFI is free, but the 100Gbps
port on your router is not)

~~~
wmf
It may be possible to place caches deeper inside an ISP's network than the
peering points. For example, it looks like Apple peers in Dallas but not
Austin or Houston so putting a cache in Austin would save bandwidth up to
Dallas.

~~~
dfox
In my experience it will invariably be placed deeper into the network, that is
at least into network core of the ISP, which typically isn't anywhere near the
edge router placed in some wonderfully expensive colo space associated with
some IXP.

------
nswest23
is this the tiered internet we were warned about?

------
kick
_Apple Edge Cache (AEC) is Apple supplied and managed hardware_

Do they have something against using dashes?

~~~
derision
Where would dashes be placed here?

~~~
kick
"Apple-supplied."

That's what they do elsewhere:

[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202471](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT202471)

[https://support.apple.com/guide/terminal/script-
management-w...](https://support.apple.com/guide/terminal/script-management-
with-launchd-apdc6c1077b-5d5d-4d35-9c19-60f2397b2369/mac)

[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201954](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT201954)

For less ambiguity, I should have used the term "hyphen," but imagined it
would be clear.

~~~
briandear
Fascinating. A hyphen and a dash are two completely different things. A dash
isn’t ambiguous at all, it’s literally the wrong word. Those who live in glass
houses..

[https://www.grammarly.com/blog/hyphens-and-
dashes/](https://www.grammarly.com/blog/hyphens-and-dashes/)

~~~
kick
Digitally, they're _the exact same thing,_ represented by the exact same code
point:*

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyphen-
minus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyphen-minus)

The figure dash _literally_ serves the same purpose as the hyphen:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash#Figure_dash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash#Figure_dash)

ASCII was limited, compromises were made, and "dash" and "hyphen" became
interchangeable.

Most style guides accept both under the term "dash":

[https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/H...](https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/HyphensEnDashesEmDashes/faq0002.html)

* Unicode has changed this somewhat, though not perfectly.

Bonus:

[https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/grammar/british-
grammar/...](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/grammar/british-
grammar/hyphens)

 _Hyphens are a form of dash (-) which we use between words or parts of
words._

~~~
jsjohnst
Feels very disingenuous to critique grammar, while using bad grammar yourself,
and then rebuke the person who calls it out politely.

------
nixass
And they use AWS for that, at least in Europe. Had a huge orders from them in
last few months

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
It says its Apple-managed hardware though? Can you elaborate?

------
fkjadoon94
Copyright © 2019 Apple Inc.

------
mortdeus
"Apple Edge Cache (AEC) is Apple supplied and managed hardware for deployment
within our ISP partners networks to deliver certain Apple content directly to
our shared customers."

This sounds horrifying.

~~~
derision
In what way?

