
How Beats by Dre played you like a fool - gmays
http://pulseradio.net/articles/2015/03/how-beats-by-dre-played-you-like-a-fool
======
kaolinite
Whilst I dislike Beats, I admire them a lot. They entered a market where every
company was focusing on sound quality first, aesthetics second and they came
in with a new take: headphones should look good (I actually dislike the style
but a lot of young people seem to love it), and should have a lot of bass to
make certain types of music - music listened to by young people - sound good
(again, I dislike this but many people love their sound).

hellbanTHIS comments that he lost a lot of respect for Apple when they bought
Beats. Initially, I did too, but having learnt more about the company, I think
it's a perfect fit. A lot of people say that you shouldn't buy a Mac because
you can buy a Windows machine with the same spec. Often, they're right. But
they're also missing the point completely - you don't buy a Mac for the
memory, the CPU, the SSD - you buy it for the experience, the "it just works",
and for how nice the hardware is. Beats is the exact same thing. People aren't
buying the headphones for the sound quality, they're buying it for everything
else.

Again, I'm no fan of Beats. But somewhere like Hacker News, we ought to admire
their ingenuity in taking over a market where the existing players had
completely ignored (and frankly, seemed oblivious to the presence of) a large
untapped audience.

~~~
creshal
> certain types of music - music listened to by young people

Can I feel old now? Where's my lawn?

> People aren't buying the headphones for the sound quality, they're buying it
> for everything else.

I find this worrying, really. Are we so desperate to consume that we're
willing to buy shit just for sake of buying?

~~~
blowski
Why is buying headphones based on their audio quality superior to buying
headphones based on their aesthetics?

~~~
teh_klev
Because their main job is to reproduce sound in an acceptably accurate manner?
Owning a pair of Beats is like owning a Ferrari or a Porsche powered by a
75BHP 1L engine with suspension made of play-doh. Nice to look but drives like
crap.

~~~
JohnBooty

      > Because their main job is to reproduce sound in 
      > an acceptably accurate manner?
    

Check the frequency response graph of almost any speaker or headphone in the
sub-$1,000 range (and quite a few over that price as well). Peaks and valleys
all over the place. They're not trying to sound "accurate," they're trying to
sound pleasing.

And this isn't even a bad thing. Just understand that sound quality isn't
objective, unless you're judging things by how flat their frequency response
curve is -- and the headphones/speakers trying to achieve that are generally
aimed at audio engineers.

~~~
teh_klev
Sure, but the GBP169(!) Solo's (not tried the full sized Beats) really don't
sound good (I used a pair for an afternoon and was hugely disappointed by
them), they are truly the epitome of a high performance car body wrapped
around a lawn mower engine. I mentioned this in another comment, my 15 quid
Sennheiser CX300 buds sounded way better than these overpriced fashion
statements.

I agree that sound quality isn't objective when it comes to hearing what
passes through one's ear holes, but the sound reproduction that passed into my
ears from these Solos was noticeably and objectively bad. I don't need a fancy
graphs to tell me that.

I should add that I did actually like the construction and build of the Solos.

------
robmccoll
Sennheiser HD 280 Pros - best headphones for under US$100. Balanced sound,
good isolation, responsive and clean, comfortable for long sessions.

[http://en-us.sennheiser.com/professional-dj-headphones-noise...](http://en-
us.sennheiser.com/professional-dj-headphones-noise-cancelling-hd-280-pro)

[http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD-280-Pro-
Headphones/dp/B0...](http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD-280-Pro-
Headphones/dp/B000065BPB)

I just don't understand purchasing headphones as a fashion statement. I read
it as "I want you to know I like popular brands over high quality and my own
listening experience".

~~~
bane
You don't buy beats for the sound, you buy beats to signal your tribal
membership. People go to extraordinary lengths to join groups and send this
membership signal. It's _almost_ instinctual and done without a lot of
thinking and good marketers know how to leverage this.

It's dumb, but it is what it is, and people wrap an awful lot of their
identity up in their chosen tribe rather than just being themselves.

~~~
picks_at_nits
> People go to extraordinary lengths to join groups and send this membership
> signal...

> It's dumb, but it is what it is, and people wrap an awful lot of their
> identity up in their chosen tribe rather than just being themselves.

Cough. Written on Hacker News, but not Reddit or Digg or Facebook. Cough.

C’mon, we’re sitting right in the middle of a tribe. Even writing that
Sennheisers sound better is sending a tribal signal. That’s why people write
it instead of just buying a pair and listening to them in private.

~~~
bane
I'm not saying _I 'm_ not dumb at times.

FWIW, I have a $20 pair of Sony unknown model # headphones I picked up at
Ross. I bought them because they were over ear and cheap not because they're
white, have Sony logos on them, or because I wanted to make a statement about
what group I'm in or not in.

But yeah, HN is also very group membership oriented and people spend
extraordinary amount of time to build things with things that signal that
they're part of this group. The trope is "yet another photo sharing app"
right?

~~~
picks_at_nits
I don’t think it’s dumb at all. Humans cannot survive without the protection
of a tribe. Just try doing a startup in Somalia.

~~~
bane
> Humans cannot survive without the protection of a tribe.

That's utter fear driven rubbish. Humans survive and thrive all the time
without joining a group.

~~~
picks_at_nits
Where? Alaska in an old bus? Even there, humans benefit to a small degree from
law enforcement that strongly discourages the next hunter from shooting them
and taking their possessions.

There are some survivalists who may or may not be able to operate for a while
on this basis, but even if they aren’t “joining” a tribe, they are protected
by tribes. get rid of all the tribes, and new ones would spring up and we’d be
back to this.

~~~
bane
You clearly don't understand the distinction between a tribe and a society.

------
nodesocket
I consider myself a bit of a an audiophile, and always argued that beats
headphones are inferior. Their balance is abysmal, way too bass heavy, and
shit plastic design. They however mastered marketing, which as it turns out
wins the "game". My choice of headphones are Sol Republic
([http://solrepublic.com/tracks-hd-on-ear-headphones-
with-v10-...](http://solrepublic.com/tracks-hd-on-ear-headphones-
with-v10-sound-engine-speakers.html)) or a nice German Sennheiser.

~~~
exodust
Not bad but check out these, they're super comfortable and I love the wood
panelling! They might even sound good too...

[http://www.thehouseofmarley.com/legend-
anc.html](http://www.thehouseofmarley.com/legend-anc.html)

------
JohnBooty
I find the Beats-bashing to be very suspect.

It's funny how a hobby (hi-fi, audiophile, whatever you want to call it)
dominated by white men just happens to get so incensed over something marketed
by and to the urban crowd.

Why aren't we angry about every other thing that's endorsed by celebrities?
Why this one in particular? I don't think the folks behind Activia yogurt
"played everybody for a fool" or "had us over a barrel from the beginning"
because they hired Jamie Lee Curtie as a spokesperson. They certainly didn't
spend their budget on inventing a better tasting yogurt or one with different
cultures in it, that's for sure.

"Sound quality" is not a great reason to pick on Beats. Most headphones and
speakers (under $1000 or so) aren't even trying to sound neutral; they're
intentionally boosting certain frequencies and suppressing others. Beats
headphones are obviously _massively_ boosting the bass, but this isn't any
less "accurate" than, say, your average Grado headphones and many enthusiasts
(myself included) really enjoy those things.

Marco Arment had the perfect analogy, I think.

    
    
      "Beats did to headphones what Starbucks did to coffee: 
      while they’re not the best, they’re a huge upgrade from
      what most people were using before, and they’ve   
      dramatically increased the market and mainstream 
      acceptability of spending $200–400 on full-sized 
      headphones and wearing them in public."
    

While the changes brought by Beats and Starbucks haven't been entirely
positive, even if you don't like them, they've definitely expanded the market.
The net effect of Beats is that there are TONS of great headphones on the
market now, more than there were ten years ago. For a guy like me who's a fan
of that stuff that's good news even though I'm not a Beats customer.

~~~
Grue3
>It's funny how a hobby (hi-fi, audiophile, whatever you want to call it)
dominated by white men just happens to get so incensed over something marketed
by and to the urban crowd.

Isn't peddling overpriced shit to underprivileged (and underinformed)
population the actual problem here? You have there a white guy, Jimmy Iovine,
selling shit product to poor urban youth, and it's audiophiles who are at
fault for exposing this fact?

~~~
JohnBooty
Nearly all headphones and speakers intentionally boost some frequencies and
suppress others. Some genres like hip-hop and electronic music sound really
good with comically exaggerated bass like that offered by the Beats. Clearly
that company is giving some music fans what they want.

They're not exactly producing a product _I_ want, but I'm pretty okay with
that. I don't feel the need to "expose" them or claim that they "have
everybody over a barrel." I just... don't buy them.

    
    
      > You have there a white guy, Jimmy Iovine, selling 
      > shit product to poor urban youth, and it's 
      > audiophiles who are at fault for exposing this fact?
    

Well, I'm not going to look inside your head and tell you what you're
thinking. So maybe this doesn't apply to you but in general the negative
feelings towards Beats seem to be best summarized as: "oh, we hate this
product whose sound and looks are tailored to urban tastes."

------
simonswords82
It just shows the power of good marketing really.

Audiophiles will rant and rave about the poor quality of the headphones, and
rightly so. I've not used Beats but it's pretty obvious from the reviews I've
read that Beats headphones are overpriced crap.

However, I don't believe Dre played anybody like a fool. He and his co-founder
simply understood that there was a gap in the market for "fashionable"
headphones, and so he used his name and connections to make that happen.

It's an incredibly basic approach to launching a new product in an established
market and I'm sure many other companies have sold overpriced crap in other
industries to a wide consumer base for lots of $$$'s using the same technique.

Edit: Fixed typo

~~~
matwood
Not really marketing alone. Geeks always seems to miss the form part of form
and function. Look at the year of the linux desktop for years on end. Geeks
see how much function linux has and think everyone should use it regardless of
the form. See the original iPod or the iPhone not having removable batteries.

Beats headphones sound okay and often deliver the music the way many of their
users want with heavier bass. Beats also makes headphones that have a much
nicer form than any others I have seen.

------
kriro
I can't finely distinguish sound and when I researched headphones I decided on
a Bose one that was rated as having worse sound quality than others in its
price segment. It's an active noisecancelling one that had great ratings in
that regard. One of the best items I ever bought, I commute by train (45-50m
each way) and it's fantastic for reading uninterrupted.

Recently tried a Sennheiser in the same price segment that had excellent sound
ratings and couldn't tell a difference. Wouldn't be shocked if I couldn't tell
apart Beats from better sound quality ones either (and I'd guess it's the same
for many people). Makes sense to base your decision on other factors then
(style, noise cancelling capabilities).

Pretty sure the real audiophiles self select out of buying Beats and most
people who do think the sound quality is sufficient.

~~~
teh_klev
Speaking as a wee bit of an audiophile, though not a brand snob....

Some folks can't tell, don't care or may even have a personal preference to
the type of sound they like that "real audiophile" types would consider
inferior. Personally I'm fine with this, it's your money you're free to spend
it how you like, and if you enjoy what you bought and they make you happy then
that's all that matters.

However...my friend's daughter was given a pair of Beats Solo's as a present
and I tried them for an afternoon keeping an open mind and ignoring the celeb
brand nonsense. Now whilst being well made and quite sturdy, they don't sound
any better than the Sennheiser CX300 buds I picked up for GBP15.00 a few
months earlier. In fact I thought the sound was inferior, and these Solo's
retail for a whopping GBP160!

I think the point I'm trying to make is that these Beats things are definitely
style over substance and the Beats project is basically a massive marketing
scam. I think _you_ could definitely tell the difference between Beats and
similarly priced non-celeb unfancy workhorse cans.

Personally I own a pair of Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 80's, they're damned ugly
things but by god they're comfy and have nice sound reproduction. I tried
other makes in the same price range (AKG, Koss etc) but settled on the Beyers.
I will admit I was slightly biased towards the Beyers because I used Beyer
DT100 cans when I did radio broadcasting (they're pretty much industry
standard, sturdy and neutral sounding) a few years back and I probably
associate them with being "professional tools".

For walkabout MP3 listening I have a pair of Tesco own make in-ear buds. They
cost me a fiver in-store and they sound just fine (I applied the principle of
"ShitTronics" when I made that purchase decision :) Discussed here previously:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9173017](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9173017))

------
gambiting
"#4. They looked at what consumers wanted, then made it"

How is this a bad thing?

And in any case - I like my Beats, I had even more expensive Sennheiser
headphones and I prefer the muddy, dirty, over-amplified bass of the Beats,
because it works well with the music I listen to while programming. Yeah I
know the Sennheiser headphones are probably "better" but I prefer something
else. I just wish people didn't care as much, it's just headphones in the end.

------
hobs
The article's title is "How they played you like a fool" but in the article I
feel like all I see are marketing gimmicks for the brand over and over.

Each item is basically a small marketing paragraph why beats did it in spite
of the nerds telling them they had inferior quality and were overpriced, and
then a big picture of a celebrity trying to look cool wearing beats.

#1. They found the golden niche

#2. They Ignored the critics and naysayers

#3. They pulled on the biggest celeb names they could find

#4. They looked at what consumers wanted, then made it

#5. They trusted their gut and risked it all

#6. They moved fast

#7. They had BIG brand help

#8. Don’t get cocky, never think you are done

This list reads like they are writing for the what used to be the underdog
(Apple) but instead selling garbage to people who dont know any better.

Why should I laud this company?

~~~
ConceptJunkie
I think the "you" here is both the customer, and the reasonable person who
thinks you should make money buy selling the best product for the best price
possible.

Beats has more money than you (probably) and me (definitely), and for some
people, that's what's important. Not the "how" or "why" or "should", but
"can".

------
blowski
Isn't this just same old same old?

We have a fantastic independent coffee shop at the end of our road. When a
major coffee chain opened a few doors down, I asked him if he was worried. His
reply: "No. The kind of people that drink coffee in Starbucks don't pay for
coffee in independent coffee shops.".

It's the same here. Beats' target market is not people that love good quality
headphones, but people that want fashionable headphones.

You can see the same argument over cars, phones, clothes, luggage, etc. It's
hardly new.

~~~
pconner
Interestingly, both Starbucks and Beats have prices similar to nice, higher-
end products in their respective markets.

~~~
blowski
Exactly. They both focus on design and marketing, on giving users more
conspicuousness in their 'conspicuous consumption'. If you want people to know
that you pay a lot for coffee, then coffee in a generic white cup is missing a
key feature.

------
hellbanTHIS
I lost a lot of respect for Apple when they bought them. Beats are what a lot
of Apple haters used to accuse them of being, overpriced junk that caters to
gullible fashion victims.

I won't be switching to their new music service.

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
I still wouldn't by them, since I dislike looking like a tool, and in every
category there is a better option, but take a look at these measurements for
the Studios: [http://www.head-fi.org/products/beats-studio-over-ear-
headph...](http://www.head-fi.org/products/beats-studio-over-ear-headphone-
black-new/reviews/9743#comments-title)

It was once fashionable to wear them, now its fashionable to hate them. Truth
is, they have gotten better - a lot.

------
userbinator
_it costs Beats a mere $14 to make according to some experts_

I'm reasonably sure that Beats does not actually design nor make these
headphones - they chose a design already produced by one of the many Chinese
manufacturers, using existing parts, and asked for their brand to be put on
it. This is common among many brands and is known as "OEM". Look at these, for
example:

[http://www.ovleng.com/index.php?m=index&a=productList&id=34](http://www.ovleng.com/index.php?m=index&a=productList&id=34)

The extreme bass was also not something Beats invented - these generic/OEM
manufacturers were producing headphones with the same type of sound before
Beats, because of the general impression among most people that more bass
means stronger, more powerful sound and therefore is more desirable. Beats
just took this "generic cheap high-bass headphone" sound and used marketing to
turn it into a fashion statement.

~~~
yasth
While for many products you would be right, for Beats you are wrong. They
really did spend quite a while getting the design right. The design was also
very controversial, while low end headphones had bass forward designs, they
had build costs far lower than $14, and had lots of sound quality issues.
(Beats is colored, but relatively cleanly so)

Anyways the design actually was fairly novel, you can read more here:

[http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-05-19/designer-o...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-05-19/designer-
of-beats-headphones-prototype-discovers-there-s-no-free-lunch)

~~~
userbinator
They chose their words very carefully in that article. Saying that they're
"working on" a design doesn't mean they're the only ones doing it locally.
It's very common to choose a design from and then work with the manufacturer
to customise it - which does count as "designing".

The OEM doesn't get credited, since it's all part of the contract and their
reason for existing. After all, why would Beats "break the illusion" they
created?

~~~
yasth
I'm sure they worked with an OEM (they pretty much had to, to work within
their manufacturing processes), but your implication that they grabbed a part
off the shelf is just not accurate.

Keep in mind that doing an original design is not a terribly high bar, but yes
beats were a custom designed part. They worked with an OEM the same way Apple
worked with an OEM. That doesn't mean it is good, just custom.

------
mrThe
[http://puu.sh/gYMIa/799fe60b8e.png](http://puu.sh/gYMIa/799fe60b8e.png) hmm

------
bborud
It isn't hard for most technically savvy people to see that these headphones
are over-priced and over-rated. But it should make us think about all the
marketing we _do_ fall for.

------
72deluxe
I wonder what effect Beats will have on a generation of listeners already
experiencing noise-induced-hearing-loss (NIHL). With the amplified bass,
aren't users exposing themselves to low-end rumble all of the time?

I'm pretty sure we'll be confronted with a generation of deaf people pretty
soon, given the extreme bass and the personal music players that can output
high volumes, and the incessant barrage of noise (radio?) wherever you go.

Additionally, when mastering and mixing, does anyone take into account what
their record would sound like on these things? Everyone buys excellent quality
reference monitors with as close-to flat response as possible for revealing
midrange, non-fatiguing high-end and punchy/deep (non-flabby) bass so they can
produce the best sounding record. Some might even listen to it weighted for FM
radio broadcasts and have a range of different speakers like those famous
Yamaha NS10s (yuck!) to get a feel of how good/bad it sounds on normal home-
users equipment. But does anyone mix/master for these? Those records will
sound as thin as a pancake on other speakers if they did; where's the balance?

Furthermore, since bass is mainly felt with the skin, is increased bass in
these headphones really as effective as listening to a real speaker?

------
mironathetin
Guys, taste needs time to develop. That's why kids are a target for scumbags.
Its not the kids fault. They buy what they understand. If they really love
their music, they'll too buy Sennheisers in 20 years.

Its the fault of Dr.Dre. He uses the inexperience of kids to get the cash of
their parents into his pockets. Nothing to admire. Kids have become business
targets for the reckless. Dre belongs to these.

------
q7
Imho beats headphones don't sound good. The bass is ridiculously overpowered
and distorts nearly constantly.

Now, tastes are different, and you might want exactly this experience with
that distorted bass.

If you create both the music and the speaker, like Dre does, and you wanted
that experience, the right approach would have been to add such a distorted
bass to your track during mixing/mastering, and then create headphones that
faithfully output this signal.

This would ensure that you could enjoy Dre's tracks with that distorted bass
on all your music equipment, like with your home hifi system, and if you used
the beats headphones with other music, it would also output that other music
truthfully.

So it becomes a bit of a standards issue. It's as if a very popular computer
displays brand made displays where pixels that are 100% white will flicker
wildly, but the displays brand was created by a guy known for his lowpoly
wireframe art style, and this particular style looks great on those displays.
So that combination might be fine, but you cannot use the displays to
faithfully assess other images, really.

~~~
icebraining
Why is a mix of the songs (with extra bass) less "truthful" than the mix made
by the record company employee? Both are valid interpretations of the music.
If you prefer the former, why shouldn't you listen to it?

~~~
q7
Oh you can listen to anything you like. Any mix is fine, and any headphones
are fine.

When I say truthfulness, I refer to playback equipment. Truthful means that it
outputs something that is close to the input.

My argument is that if a headphone doesn't add deliberate distortions, it can
be used for all kinds of music, enhancing its utility. And at the same time,
with such a more useful headphone, you can still have the same experience as
before, if those distortions are added at an earlier time.

------
las_cases
Indeed, (and I am only mentioning this because Plantronics is also on the
chart) I bought a pair of Plantronics GameCom 367 and they were absolutely
abysmal. They were hooked to a Yamaha RX-V373 audio receiver which in turn was
optically connected to a PC so it couldn't have been a question about the
configuration. Anyway, the sound was completely flat, almost no bass -
certainly no punch whatsoever, the highs were absurdly cut and the middles
painfully mediocre to say the least. The entire range was so bad that I was
really frustrated I couldn't return them due to a hideous store policy at that
time in RO. Not to mention that when you would pass the 75% volume mark the
sound was completely distorted. What a complete disgrace. :(

The big takeaway: always test the product before you buy it never fall for the
hype.

------
pohl
I had a support ticked open with Apple for long enough that they gave me a
store credit to buy something. The amount was just enough to get a Beats Pill
XL Bluetooth speaker, so I got one.

Wow, the thing changed my relationship with my music library. There are so
many more occasions that I can listen to music just because of the convenience
of being able to place the speaker wherever I am. Good build quality, great
battery life, and I am happy with the sound quality.

I tried the free trial of the music streaming service, and it is a cut above
the others. I decided to wait for what it becomes post-acquisition, though.

I had no prejudices about Beats prior to this. I don't understand the hate.

------
jmkni
My laptop has a Beats by Dre logo for some reason, I have no idea why because
the sound quality is no better than any other laptop I have used with bog-
standard speakers.

~~~
_asummers
"Beats capable", probably. Means about as much as "Vista ready".

~~~
linuxydave
I really hope not, it's a pair of headphones. It's not like you're plugging in
a new type of RAM.

------
raverbashing
Yes, my first reaction is "oh, what a bunch of idiots"

But then again nobody is listening to the 5th symphony on Beats headphones
(and, tbh, they probably sound better than Apple's, just because of size)

It's a fashion accessory. Like sunglasses, which sure, you'll protect your
eyes, but that's not all there is to it.

It's easy to complain about marketing and dumb people, the lesson that needs
to be taken is, what I may be missing in creating or marketing a product.

------
r0h1n
Essentilly, instead of spending money on R&D to create better headphones, they
spent it on marketing and celeb endorsements because people are sheep.

------
rnhmjoj
I receive a pair of these headphones this christmas, when I had no idea what
Beats was. I listend to some classical music for a couple minutes: it was
terrible and I can't really stand for the hiss always on in the background.
The next week I sold them and bought a mechanical keyboard.

------
vkjv
_sigh_ $14 in components for a $100 product seems like a really tight margin
and not exploitation to me. The tooling chain for these things (injection
molding, etc.) is really expensive.

Not that these are a great product, but I don't see them outright ripping
anyone off.

~~~
AlexandrB
The quote from the article is actually "...it costs Beats a mere $14 to make
according to some experts." I'm assuming they factored the tooling costs into
the cost of making these.

At the scales Beats is operating the tooling chain costs, while initially
high, get distributed over millions of units.

------
tempodox
Both sound and production quality of the “beats” (down to the very plastic)
are crappy. But the marketing hype is done by artists. Even Apple fell for it.

~~~
ebbv
Apple didn't "fall for" the marketing, they bought the company because the
brand actually has a lot of value due to the marketing. And the value of the
Beats Music streaming service, especially the deals that it had with labels
already to allow streaming.

I think they overpaid, but they can afford to.

------
jokoon
Marketing and politics, they work the same.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
They _are_ the same.

Politics is just marketing with taxes and nuclear weapons.

------
thejew
And now we know that pulseaudio.net uses CakePHP as their web framework.
[http://i.imgur.com/BbR63sK.png](http://i.imgur.com/BbR63sK.png)

They should turn debug off.

~~~
teddyh
First, it’s “pulseradio.net”, not “pulseaudio”.

Second, what framework anyone uses is hardly a secret – anyone can see that,
either by looking at the source code, or by simply installing the Wappalyzer
browser extension.

