

Is It Cold in Here? (Sexism in Science) - tokenadult
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cocktail-party-physics/2011/07/20/is-it-cold-in-here/

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sp332
The trouble is, there are _only_ negative examples in these pieces. Even
Rebecca Watson's video, she just says, "Don't do that, it makes me
uncomfortable." There's no positive examples - in mainstream media, in "geek"
media, in the public geek consciousness - of a good way to treat women.
They're always being hit on, at least. So, if guys with few social skills go
by what they see other people doing (following the only examples they have),
they will be offensive without meaning to be.

So, instead of a list of "bad" behaviors, are there any examples of good ways
to interact with geek women? TV shows with non-romantic relationships with
geek girls, good topics of conversation, lists of things to say when you just
want to hang out with someone and don't want to seem like you're hitting on
them, anything?

Also, Watson's complaint seems to contradict some other accounts, like Mac
McClelland's quote "When a French UN peacekeeper I'd met went AWOL to knock on
my door, wanting to know, when I gladly unlocked it for him, please if he
could kiss me," she let him in. Is there a quantitative difference between
hitting on a woman in an elevator at 4 in the morning, vs. knocking on her
door and trying to get in her pants?

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mattgreenrocks
The reason is because popular media has little incentive to offer examples of
stable, healthy relationships. It is much more interesting to show lots of
dysfunctional characters interacting in strange and unpredictable ways (e.g.
30 Rock, Seinfeld, etc). So, please don't take advice on how to treat women
(or anyone, really) from popular media. Because it doesn't purport to teach
you that, and it doesn't have any sort of track record here. It specializes in
selling you cultural fantasies, actually.

As for the last paragraph, well, the difference is summed up in one word:
context. Obviously, Watson and her admirer didn't have enough of it. But her
admirer also chose a terrible spot and time to proposition her.

BTW, using terms like "qualitative" WRT to human behavior is not productive.
Humans don't always behave rationally or in their own self-interest,
especially in relationships. This is not a bug, generally.

~~~
sp332
Haha, yeah, I don't mean to pretend that social behavior is an exact science
or anything. But broadly, there are some classes of behavior that are
acceptable and some that are not. Watson is describing a set of behaviors that
are not-OK. The behavior McClelland describes is presented as something that
is "acceptable". I don't mean that the guy will get in her pants every time, I
mean that you can't fault him for his behavior even if he's turned down.

I mean, to me, telling a woman that she interests you and carefully asking her
to your place seems like an OK thing. What's unacceptable about that?

~~~
mattgreenrocks
Those particular behaviors were not OK to her in that situation.

Had the situation been framed differently, she might not have even mentioned
them at all. What if she was in a bar when it happened? What if it wasn't 4
am? The fact of the matter was she may have felt like she couldn't say no to
the guy.

~~~
sp332
Well, there's a big difference between saying "I felt uncomfortable in this
particular situation" vs. saying "No guy should ever behave this way." I feel
like she was saying the latter, and I've given it a lot of thought and I think
that's not fair. Somehow I feel like she should take responsibility for
feeling uncomfortable (which is fine, ethically) instead of blaming the guy
for making her uncomfortable (which would be bad, ethically).

I'll probably just throw out this anecdote entirely and not learn anything
from it. Oh well.

~~~
mattgreenrocks
Maybe.

But drawing a conclusion for most females with n = 2 seems...tremulous. And
expecting some sort of resolution between two different situations for which
you don't have the complete context (nonverbals are key) is also going to be
difficult.

Now that I think about it, if you're looking for your own reference point, you
might as well start with whatever your gut says, and alter from there. You'll
learn quickly where you need to be. You're probably going to be too aggressive
or too timid, and the only way to learn is to get out there. I was too timid,
and some girls cut me some slack...but many did not. But I don't regret being
too timid (despite missed opportunities) because, well, that was me, and I had
to learn those things. I'm with a wonderful woman now, and am pretty close to
where I'd like to be, and where I feel I should be on this scale.

Best of luck.

