
Jony Ive shakes up Apple’s software design group - antr
http://9to5mac.com/2014/04/09/jony-ive-shakes-up-apples-software-design-group-iphone-interface-creator-greg-christie-departing/
======
candybar
The problem I'm seeing with this whole unification of design across a whole
system including hardware and software is that designing a proper UI for
software is orders of magnitude more complex than designing UI for hardware.
Not only is software far more complex than typical end-user hardware from a
functionality standpoint, it's far more malleable, indefinitely extensible and
has to work with third-party components over which it has little control.
Also, because it takes far longer to learn how to use software, simply being
good isn't enough - it has to work within the constraints of people's
expectations, far more than a piece of hardware has to.

Now, there's certainly commonality between the two but if you were to
exaggerate the difference, hardware UI design is like writing a sonnet. The
medium is constraining but the compromises you have to make with other people
are minimal - if you write a great sonnet, the chance is that people will like
it. Software UI design is more like writing a constitution - it's about
compromises. You have to weigh the needs of present users against those of
future users, usability of old applications against new applications, properly
balance the opinions and ideas of a whole bunch of people involved in design
and implementation of various features, not to mention third-party developers.
No matter what you do, there will be a huge number of inconsistencies, a lot
of people will hate it and many others will worship and faithfully copy your
mistakes, in a way that makes correcting your mistakes difficult.

Edit: Btw, when I say hardware UI, I actually mean the hardware as seen and
directly manipulated by the user without software as the intermediary. If by
hardware, we mean software interface to the hardware, the above points also
apply to hardware, though hardware is still considerably simpler and the work
is done almost entirely at the component level that has nothing to do with
Jony Ive. At the whole system level, which is where Jony Ive comes in,
hardware UI design is inherently simple. Simple doesn't mean easy - it just
means you're judged by different standards.

~~~
kingnight
I'd argue all your points regarding software are true for hardware but with
the added difficulty of needing to get it right the first time.

~~~
kingnight
Edit: Re your edit, I still think that designing the actual hardware that the
user interacts with directly is equally difficult to design as the software at
any level.

The fact that the iPhone has 4 buttons and a switch is a huge design decision.
The size, shape, texture, reflectiveness, responsiveness, and tactile feedback
are parts of the design that need to be considered and are not malleable once
released.

------
outside1234
This is starting to be a pattern. Although Jony is obviously talented, he sure
has driven a lot of talent from the company.

At some point, that leaving talent points to a problem with Jony.

And then it will be Jony's turn.

~~~
hugi
What talent has Ive driven from the company apart from Scott Forstall and this
guy?

~~~
cwe
Jon Rubenstein had plenty of conflict with him (via the Jobs and Ive
biographies), and Tony Fadell as well [1].

[1] [http://www.cultofmac.com/262334/feud-jony-ive-keep-tony-
fade...](http://www.cultofmac.com/262334/feud-jony-ive-keep-tony-fadell-
returning-apple/)

------
EGreg
Jobs and Ive run Apple like a cult of personality. And it seems to have
resulted in awesome products. Let's see if that can continue to happen.

Because in the last 2 years, Apple's design took a nosedive. I hate to say it
but Google's interfaces are now way more pleasant than Apple's. And there is
one reason for it:

FLAT INTERFACES

If it comes to the MacOS, I will probably abandon ship. I liked my iPhone and
its familiar look and feel. Jobs got it, Ive didn't. It was all thrown out the
window with the word "skeumorphism".

Let me be clear: iOS 7 was a leap forward DESPITE the interface, not because
of it. It was all the other things, like the drawer on the bottom (whoopee)
that made up for the horrible clown-like icons and complete lack of textures.
My videos with white backgrounds now are indistinguishable from the controls.
At least they fixed the neon-green color of the bar on top when you have a
phonecall. The white text was almost impossible to read on it. How did it ever
pass design QA at Apple? Probably while Jony Ive was desigining his much-
touted icon grid.

Apple, your design was so good -- why'd you have to go copy Google and
Microsoft after decades of leading design-wise? Why'd you have to break your
browser only to fix it in 7.1? Argh.

~~~
ddebernardy
> Jobs and Ive run Apple like a cult of personality

Hello? Earth speaking to whoever is out there.

I realize information takes time to reach the end of our solar system and
beyond, but Steve Jobs died long ago. He also ceded control to Tim Cook months
before doing so.

~~~
EGreg
OK I omitted a word assuming most people would know what I meant.

Steve Jobs HAS run Apple like a cult of personality.

Steve Jobs appointed Ive head of everything hardware-design-related and made
him untouchable on purpose. He groomed him to lead design at Apple, which is
the major department.

Steve Jobs would have vehemently disagreed with Ive about skeumorphism and
probably wouldn't let him create iOS 7 this way, or if it happened, would chew
him out the way he did Forstall, even though he liked him.

That said, the reason Ive is now telling everyone it's his way or the highway
is a direct extension of how Steve Jobs ran the company. Get it?

~~~
fredgrott
But that was not Steve Jobs..your over-simplifying things as there were times
where standing up to Steve was not only encouraged but respected

~~~
EGreg
Although I don't think that your point disproves mine, I'd love to learn about
the times that standing up to Jobs was respected and rewarded. Genuinely want
to have more examples of this.

------
owenversteeg
Why not link to the source article? [http://9to5mac.com/2014/04/09/jony-ive-
shakes-up-apples-soft...](http://9to5mac.com/2014/04/09/jony-ive-shakes-up-
apples-software-design-group-iphone-interface-creator-greg-christie-
departing/)

~~~
dang
Thanks. I changed it.

------
leothekim
The Financial Times got confirmation of this from Apple:
[http://blogs.ft.com/tech-blog/2014/04/apple-confirms-
departu...](http://blogs.ft.com/tech-blog/2014/04/apple-confirms-departure-of-
prominent-designer-greg-christie/) (registration required)

Apple's statement: "Greg has been planning to retire later this year after
nearly 20 years at Apple. He has made vital contributions to Apple products
across the board, and built a world-class Human Interface team which has
worked closely with Jony for many years."

Clearly downplaying a clash.

~~~
gress
How is it clear that it's a clash? It's just as likely that the reporting of a
clash is drama added by the media.

(Edit: see: [http://daringfireball.net/linked/2014/04/09/christie-ive-
wsj](http://daringfireball.net/linked/2014/04/09/christie-ive-wsj) )

------
Holbein
I didn't like those inconsistent style-over-substance design decisions in
iOS7. Maybe Forstall and Christie just wanted to be a voice of reason and got
sacked for it?

~~~
bluthru
Are you kidding? iOS 7 strips down graphical elements so that the substance is
the style.

iOS 6 and earlier was stuffed to the gills with stylization.

~~~
pcurve
I own mac, pc, android, ios. With each revision, ios has become harder to use
because they keep adding new things without considering holistic experience.

Take a look at the Settings in ios7. It's nothing but a list of identical
looking settings that go on for pages. Everything is nothing but text and thin
lines.

A simple color-coded organization, categorization, and minor variation in
fonts would've gone a long way.

Android's settings isn't much better, but at least things are better marked
with text labels and clearer icons.

Apple has long crossed that line of less-is-more. They are firmly in the less-
is-less territory. Both companies are leaving a lot on the table by being too
boxed-in in their thinking, but Android is at least taking more humble
approach.

~~~
archagon
"Take a look at the Settings in ios7. It's nothing but a list of identical
looking settings that go on for pages. Everything is nothing but text and thin
lines."

Err, it's pretty much always been like this.

~~~
pcurve
The basic layout has stayed the same, but the left-side list has grown quite a
bit over the years, as has the number of settings on the right side.

The original layout may have been serviceable years ago, but now it leaves a
lot to be desired.

The current split-pane interface works fine if you go in there to change
multiple items on a regular basis, but that's not exactly how most people use
the settings.

------
higherpurpose
Why? I thought he was in charge of all UX to begin with. The fact that iOS7
came out with such inconsistent design, weird colors, and almost invisible
fonts is his fault as much as anyone's, if not more so. He approved
everything, and now he's taking it out on the designers because of the bad
feedback from the market?

~~~
EGreg
Ive approved it. This was a fiasco second only to the Maps fiasco. Jobs
berated those guys.

SAD BUT THIS IS HOW THINGS HAPPEN:

1\. Apple Maps is headed by Forstall, doesn't get enough resources, comes out
sucking.

2\. Scott Forstall is forced out the stall... I mean the door. And Steve Jobs
passes away. The two biggest advocates of skeumorphism gone.
[http://www.businessinsider.com/tim-cook-why-i-fired-scott-
fo...](http://www.businessinsider.com/tim-cook-why-i-fired-scott-
forstall-2012-12)

3\. Jony Ive, a hardware guy, takes over the UI. The microsoft-envy kills
Apple's mojo. We just have to accept this new crap.

OR FOR EXAMPLE:

1\. Some people in Florida can't vote properly on a poorly designed butterfly
ballot

2\. George W Bush comes to power

3\. After 9-11, we go to war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and do nation building
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9SOVzMV2bc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9SOVzMV2bc))

4\. US economy falls, many countries start to resent the USA, meanwhile we get
Patriot Act and a lot of domestic surveillance

5\. All kinds of spy programs and warrantless searches and detaining of
citizens is authorized because of "terrorism"

And it all started from a butterfly ballot...

~~~
samstave
While that is a wildly crazy comparison... and the conspiracy theorist in me
likes it, it is completely naive to think that the war on terror was an
emergent event after the butterfly ballot...

Cheney, Bush Sr, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz had been decades long been building up to
their coup of the US.

~~~
EGreg
But if they hadn't been elected, how would they have succeeded if Al Gore's
admin was running the show?

I'm saying that the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a
typhoon halfway around the world. Chaos theory :-P

~~~
samstave
Elected. I dont think that word means what you think it means.

------
droob
They mean "falling out", right?

~~~
eli
Funny looking word, but it's not wrong. Fallout is the noun:
[http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fallout](http://www.merriam-
webster.com/dictionary/fallout)

~~~
nardi
No, "fallout" is not a noun form of "falling out." For one, "falling out" is
already a noun phrase. Secondly, "fallout" refers to the lingering effects of
some larger event. It doesn't apply here.

~~~
ScottWhigham
Not entirely true, as indicated by the link to Webster's Dictionary provided.

~~~
vacri
Read the definition again, it agrees with nardi's comment.

~~~
ScottWhigham
I did read it. The usage is correct and the dictionary entry shows that
"fallout" is indeed a noun showing "a bad effect or result of something".

Sorry - I think you need to read it again because you've clearly downvoted my
response in error.

~~~
vacri
_" a secondary and often lingering effect"_

The "falling out" described in the original comment is not a secondary effect
- it is the primary driver of the action. The _fallout_ from the _falling out_
is that Christie left the organisation.

A falling out can be the fallout from another action, but that's not the
context used here.

------
_random_
He probably sent him a link to one of those much better iOS flat GUI redesigns
from independent artists.

~~~
samstave
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZp7BvQJnU8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZp7BvQJnU8)

~~~
DonGateley
Awesome video and complete validation of my theory that Ive is trying to
eliminate design from user interfaces and make it so that anyone can do it
even with MS Word.

Lowering the barrier to app creation is all this flat, modern crap is about.
The end user's experience is of no consideration at all because they can be
easily convinced _anything_ is cool. I can't wait for the backlash.

Everyone at apple with taste is either being forced out or quitting so when
that backlash comes apple will be left holding an empty bag.

------
pseudometa
Jony, please stick to hardware.

~~~
greglindahl
It doesn't make any sense to have the hardware and software have opposing
designs... that's why they put Jony in charge of both.

~~~
Touche
Huh, how can hardware and software have "opposing designs"? I'm just an
engineer who doesn't understand design so please explain.

~~~
pistle
This my semi-outsider opinion.

Metal. Minimal. Futurism. Refined. Ive.

Kitchy. Cozy. Gaudy. Forstall and most things not iOS7 (and iOS7 has
compromises) If this includes Christie now, yeah, him too.

So much of the UX has seemed to betray the industrial design. It's like
Window's old "Hot Dog" color theme. I'm going to guess that Ive pushed to get
people in line and the same old flat vs. skeumorphic arguments simmered since
that is one specific instance of a larger aesthetic argument.

Certain aspects of the OSX are well done, but many parts are dated, klunky,
and even garish.

Apple hardware looks beautiful sitting somewhere turned OFF or with someone
else's app/lication loaded up. The native stuff feels like cheap plastic body
kits on refined European sports cars (not the Italian ones).

------
smackfu
Funny, he was just on the stand in their patent trial last week.

------
sscalia
Complete conjecture.

------
blazespin
Ive will be the next CEO of Apple. Anyone who doesn't bow at the alter of Ive
like they bow at the altar of Steve, will be gone.

------
w1ntermute
Google should hire this dude, just to give Sir Jony the middle finger.

------
jusben1369
I wonder if he's still unemployed.

------
jobu
A quick google search indicates that Greg Christie came up with the "Slide to
Unlock" idea: [http://www.macrumors.com/2014/04/09/greg-christie-jony-
ive-f...](http://www.macrumors.com/2014/04/09/greg-christie-jony-ive-fallout/)

Hopefully the person that invented the picker wheel control will be next. What
a horrible interface.

