
Carl's Jr. wants to open automated location - Jerry2
http://www.businessinsider.com/carls-jr-wants-open-automated-location-2016-3
======
Balgair
The path: Google's self driving car finally makes it out of dev. hell and a
few years pass. Domino's and Pizza Hut plaster some of the cars with glaring
vinyl stickers and plop a stoned teenager in the seat because lawyers. More
time passes. Someone finally figures out how to make a decent enough pizza via
a robot oven. Now you have a self driving car and a self making pizza, the
stoned twentysomething is finally taken out of the car to find another job.
You pull up you phone and order a pizza, the car is routed while in transit to
another place and makes the pizza while delivering other pizzas. Store fronts
disappear with their allotment of stoned thirtysomethings. Domino's tries to
put in a self making deep-fried chicken wings machine, but so many catch fire
and don't know it while driving down a freeway that lawyers evoke their toll.
Eventually Pizza Hut puts in malicious code to wreck Domino's cars 'safely'. A
literal arms race now pops up. Then the stoned fortysomethings order 2 pizzas
from competing companies at the same time. The entertainment from watching
heavily armed robots fight for the right to deliver you pizza becomes a major
sport. Fin.

~~~
rm_-rf_slash
Or you could do it Snow Crash style and hope the delivery guy is late so you
can shoot him and take the car.

That aside, when you use automation to strip personality from a venue, it puts
personality at a premium. Some of the best places to eat in town are those
where the staff are friendly and you can chat with each other about your day.
No robot could ever do that (as long as you know it's a robot).

~~~
JoeAltmaier
That's not how it worked! Read it again.

~~~
alanfalcon
"Your pie in 30 minutes or you can have it free, shoot the driver, take his
car, file a class-action suit." (But yeah, it's an exageration even in the
context of Snow Crash's hypercrazed world. Hiro later rveeals he doesn't know
what happens to the drivers in such situations.)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I stand corrected!

------
mc32
On the upside there will be potential for better detecting foodborne illnesses
as well as just better food hygiene with fewer human hands.

It's a dire time for people who dropped out of school and with few marketable
skills. The tattered net that was the McD's job, is not going to be there for
long, not that should have ever been a job for proper adults, but soon it will
be on its way out.

However, I think minimum wage increases are a red herring. Increased minimum
wages should buy you better employees who are more productive. Never the less,
it's just more automation, possibly base wage increase accelerates adoption,
but it's not the reason --were just getting better at automation and it's
becoming pervasive.

As to people's appetite for automated food production and presentation Japan
should allay their fears. After a little trepidation, consumers will grow to
like the predictable service.

~~~
throwaway2016a
> However, I think minimum wage increases are a red herring. Increased minimum
> wages should buy you better employees who are more productive. Never the
> less, it's just more automation, possibly base wage increase accelerates
> adoption, but it's not the reason --were just getting better at automation
> and it's becoming pervasive.

I'm not sure adding productivity helps. Since a lot of the time is spent doing
things like waiting for the frier to be done cooking the fries. No matter how
efficient a worker you are, the fries will not cook faster. Likewise there are
times of the day when the foot traffic is very low. At those times people are
told to do things like sweep the floor but I'm not sure if someone finishes
sweeping 10 minutes earlier it really makes a difference.

~~~
st3v3r
More productive workers are also usually more dependable. So you're worrying
less that the person that's supposed to come in before the lunch rush isn't
just going to flake out on you.

~~~
throwaway2016a
I have to admit, I had not considered them just not showing up to work at all.
I'm a bit unqualified to talk on this topic as I have never worked in fast
food, I was more curious why it matters in that environment.

------
michaelbuckbee
This is just the tail end optimizations (aka human effort reductions) that
have been happening for a long time in the food business.

Fast food in particular, but even most "fast casual" places don't actually
make the food in the sense of raw ingredients come in, finished dishes go out.

What is delivered to each restaurant are prepackaged, pre portioned food
"modules" that are then rapidly assembled: frozen hamburger patties, bags of
precut flash frozen fries, bags of precut onions, etc. Which is wildly more
efficient than handling everything in house.

Similarly, Starbucks switched from barista's who needed some level of skill to
the "Mastrena" machines which let you hit buttons to make drinks.

1 - [http://www.businessinsider.com/the-company-behind-
starbucks-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/the-company-behind-starbucks-
espresso-2014-8)

------
rwhitman
He's right - when the bulk of common minimum wage jobs have been replaced by
machines to offset the human resource cost, it's going to decimate low-wage
employment.

There will eventually be a price point at which the cost of buying and
maintaining machines is more expensive than human labor. The problem is those
competitive wages are extremely low, measured in pennies an hour. (Mechanical
Turk is a great example)

Today's minimum wage workers may eventually end up working illegally or
flooding "gig economy" 1099 roles - driving their collective value in those
markets down to wages less than a dollar an hour.

Without a strategy like Basic Income, our cushy Western living standards are
going to be at a real crossroads soon. We're about to turn a good chunk of the
Western world into Bangladesh

~~~
Eric_WVGG
The deception in his argument, though, is that this is happening _because_ of
rising minimum wages.

If the minimum wage stayed the same, but automation was cheaper regardless (it
will be by its very nature, count on it), he'd still be first in line to axe
those jobs.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
Right now there is a gap between cost of human labor and cost of automation.
When automation becomes cheaper than human labor, it will make more economical
sense to switch to automation. Even if you stick with only automation getting
cheaper, the gap is still closing. But with the cost of human labor also
increasing, the gap is just closing even faster. It is not reasonable to think
we can slow the decreasing cost of automation as that is just the nature of
technology at scale. But we have absolute control over the cost of human
labor. Every time we vote for a minimum wage increase we are choosing to
increase the cost of human labor. If this is the choice we make then we can't
really complain about the effect it has.

~~~
rm_-rf_slash
That is a good point. One of the reasons historians tend to claim as to why
the industrial revolution occurred in 18th century Britain and not Ptolemeic
Egypt (where there is evidence of machines like steam engines) is that ancient
Egyptian labor was cheap, which meant more profits for ruling classes while
the people had jobs.

It is worth noting that Egyptian prominence is directly due to the abundant
resources of the Nile, and presumably, with technology displacing natural
abundance, there could certainly be more for everybody. Famines are more often
a result of policy, and rarely because food is so scarce that no-one can eat
(ex: Ireland and India under British rule)

------
mywittyname
I'm okay with this. As he says, robots are the best workers.

Once companies start investing more in automation, then we as a country can
focus on freeing humans from the shackles of performing meager tasks for
penance. We can tax these companies a modest amount and give that to
unemployed workers.

It's really a win/win. The business makes lots more money and the former
workers now have a load of free time to do with as they please. They can focus
on developing skills for higher paying jobs, or just live out their lives in
modest leisure, focusing on raising their family instead of just feeding them.

~~~
GSegbar
I don't think so. It'd be more cost-effective to let us all starve.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Hence, socialist safety nets. Because the alternative is.... unpleasant for
capital/automation owners.

See:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution)

~~~
chopin
This problem could be solved with robots as well. Why not having farming
robots alongside with ones which protect them and the products of their labor
from the greedy hands of the have-nots? It could be that robots able to kill
will overturn the balance to the ones who can afford them even if they are a
few. Who would dare to stop them?

~~~
toomuchtodo
If you have nothing to lose as a have-not, your options for action are
extensive.

Even the smallest nation-states can afford and manufacture nuclear weapons now
(ie North Korea). I don't foresee this capability getting more expensive or
more difficult as time goes on, only cheaper and easier.

------
swalsh
This is really a net plus. The vast majority of people working fast food,
really don't like it (as a job). They hate the pay, and most hate the work.
Technology like this is a blessing in disguise, it frees people from working
in places they hate. If you're the kind of person who actually liked a job in
fast food, you're a special person... and a fine dining restaurant would
probably be even more enjoyable for you. Of course the downside is our society
requires you to have a job to participate in the economy, and the bar to
getting a job just raised a bit higher. Technology combined with globalization
isn't changing the world... it CHANGED the world. In 2016 we're at a
crossroads to decide how we deal with it. To me the current "extremist"
candidates Bernie vs Trump represent two alternative views... Bernie seems
interested in building a society that takes care of its citizens, even if
they're not capable of taking care of themselves in the new economy. He
advocates not for "Free" college, but rather raising the bar to help people
get the NEW minimum education required to participate. Trump says (though its
unclear) that the solution to people no longer being able to participate in
the new economy is to ratchet back the social (not technological) progress
we've made.

~~~
Lawtonfogle
How does one measure social progress? Without an agreed upon definition of
what is forward, how can we label something back?

~~~
rm_-rf_slash
I'll take a stab and say protected classes. You can't refuse service or
employment to someone based on race, disability status, and so on, and the
rare edge cases of people abusing this statute adds fuel to the "political
correctness is ruining this country" fire.

Without such protections, people would be cheaper to employ because the deck
is further stacked against them.

That is how we go back in time.

~~~
Lawtonfogle
So is adding more protected classes progress in all cases, are are there
certain criteria as to what counts as a protected class? And is this really
progress (imagine how protected classes works in certain jobs related to the
sex industry), you are basically overriding a persons ability to consent, and
even if the action is only something physical, is it really progress for the
government to force consent under threat?

And maybe we could even break it down. Maybe protected classes for employment
is great and maybe protect classes for service aren't. Or maybe protected
classes for employment is actually regressive because it is endorsement of all
the factors you can discriminate on. For example, orientation isn't a protect
class (at least not federally), and thus in many places is legal to
discriminate based on. Perhaps progress would be that employment
discrimination is only allowed for factors actually relevant to the job, and
adding protected classes is a regression from this.

------
AndrewDucker
My local McDonalds now has giant screens for you to place your order. Most of
the time I'm in there they now have counter staff with very little to do.

If they can work out a way to automate the making of the burger, or even the
transport from the chef to the customer, they'll be able to cut their staff
even more.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
This will be huge. Imagine a cinder block building half-buried in the ground
with a loading dock and a drive-up. You wave your chipped credit card, the
screen shows your last 5 orders or a Menu button. Make your selection and
drive up to the pneumatic delivery chute. Plop! your bagged meal arrives
seconds later.

Economically, it means we'll finally have to face the fact that, to run our
country, we don't actually need everybody to work any more. Have to figure
that one out (or at least, come to the consensus that a basic income is a good
thing).

~~~
Roboprog
If we could somehow gather up the taxes to pay for basic income, maybe we
could hire people to work on all of the things in "the commons" that obviously
need fixing or enhancing, instead.

I consider myself to the left of today's Democratic party (then again, I think
Richard Nixon was more liberal than 21st century Democrats), but basic income
sounds like a real moral hazard to me, and traditional Keynesian economics
would likely deal with most of the unemployment problem, perhaps in
conjunction with rolling back some "free trade" back-stabbing (alas, that crap
was bi-partisan). Easy access to "welfare" in the 60s and 70s is what got us
the back-lash of Reagan and friends.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Welfare is not the problem its made out to be. But to work on the 'moral
hazard': perhaps the basic income can be earned simply by social activity like
elder visits, park monitoring, mentoring, public health seminars. Encourage
improvements in quality of life.

~~~
zyxley
Making it 'earned' is missing a major point of basic income: that just giving
the money away can ultimately be much cheaper and more efficient than
verifying if people 'deserve' it.

~~~
Roboprog
I guess I'm still just enough of a jerk that I would like to see the
recipient's contribute positively to society, such as the examples mentioned
above (child / elder care, park ranger, etc). There is plenty to be done - why
don't we set people on that (roads, utilities, parks, forests, care, fire,
police,... ), then see where we stand?

------
mangeletti
Another Idiocracy prediction[1] comes true:

1\.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW-4LU79qbU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW-4LU79qbU)

~~~
mangeletti
For reference, here are some others:

[http://www.mandatory.com/2013/08/09/10-things-idiocracy-
pred...](http://www.mandatory.com/2013/08/09/10-things-idiocracy-predicted-
would-happen-and-sadly-already/)

~~~
TheLarch
Trump is easily halfway between, say, Eisenhower and President Comacho.

------
syats
"Government driving up the cost of labor" is an absurd thing to say for the
CEO of a company which is expanding and who, most likely, drives around in a
luxury car and owns a private airplane. Rising wages are only a problem for
greedy businessmen who won't buckle up for once and pay employees their fair
share, sacrificing maybe a year or two of ski-holidays and caviar.

~~~
AndrewUnmuted
Actually, your comment appears to be even less based on reality and
observation than the quotation you're railing against.

Assuming you're reserving your diatribe for the US, major corporations are
simply hoarding and offshoring cash reserves. This is so that they can defer
paying the highest corporate income tax in the world, and wait to file all of
this cash when the next administration announces a corporate income tax
holiday. That will be when the hiring happens and wages get raised in the US.

------
Eric_WVGG
Business Insider would’ve scored some journalistic points if they had used a
real photograph of a janky ass Carl’s Jr burger instead of promotional art.

------
PaulHoule
One of these plays a role in this sci-fi book:

[http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Rat-Born-
Series/dp/144...](http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Rat-Born-
Series/dp/1441881468)

------
GFK_of_xmaspast
It's been done:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat)

~~~
crispyambulance
Yep, and they have a remarkable "retro-future" charm to them.

All the automats really do is remove the person at the counter. There's still
folks preparing the stuff in the back, there's still people clearing tables
and cleaning up. Bringing this back will perhaps reduce headcount in some
locations but only by a fraction.

There is nothing transformational about this idea. It is merely being used as
fodder in arguments against raising the minimum wage. I am sure they would
prefer avoiding fitting existing stores with such new technology.

------
fuzzieozzie
Obviously a political statement supporting the profitability of his current
business model!

"This is the problem with Bernie Sanders, and Hillary Clinton, and
progressives who push very hard to raise the minimum wage," says Puzder. "Does
it really help if Sally makes $3 more an hour if Suzie has no job?"

The 'human' question is, will a minimum wage job pay enough to support a
person. Obviously this is not considered :(

~~~
masterleep
The answer to your 'human' question is that not all humans are the same.

------
ersii
Let me just say this, not even Bernie Sanders favorite - Sweden - has legal
minimum wages.

(In Sweden the Employers and the uhm.. "organized" Unions negotiate collective
agreements that have something similar to legal minimum wages - but they're
voluntary, not mandated by the state or the county etc)

------
Roboprog
Fast food production should be increasingly mechanized. Much of it will
regardless of +/\- 20% change in wages.

At this point, maybe somebody else can insert a better "Culture" reference
than I can :-)

------
cat-dev-null
Carl's Jr. needs better WiFi first. The few locations I've tried (in Silicon
Valley) have WiFi which seems slower than dial-up.

------
aidenn0
Eatsa just looks like an Automat without the coins, or am I missing something?

~~~
mc32
Automats were/are pre prepackaged to go food (read: longish shelf life, things
that dont get soggy or taste blah when cold). On the other hand these can have
food made to order like any fast food joint, just more streamlined ordering
and little interaction if any with staffs.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Automats from the 60's had a full kitchen behind the glass wall. Not to-go
food. But a limited menu.

------
beachstartup
back when i used to eat fast food at college, in san diego carl's jr. was the
first to offer kiosk-based ordering.

it was pretty awesome, except for the standard issues (slow people trying to
use it, etc.)

------
nielsbot
...or maybe charge a little more for your burgers?

~~~
mgo
What a perfect way to price the poorest people of society out of the most
valuable resource - food.

~~~
farva
Fast food is more of a luxury...if you want the best value on food then go to
the grocery store.

~~~
dagw
_if you want the best value on food then go to the grocery store._

Assuming your time and transportation has zero cost. And even then you're
going to have to be buying pretty massive quantities to get a big enough of a
bulk discount to even have a chance to make yourself a burger for anywhere
near $1.

~~~
MisterBastahrd
Rice and beans are healthy, filling, cheap, and can be stored dry in large
quantities. Nobody HAS to eat a fast food sandwich. The real problem here is
that companies want to pay their employees so little in order to enrich their
investors that they are reducing their own customer bases.

