
SpaceX applies to offer high-speed internet service to Canadians - ranit
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/spacex-high-speed-internet-1.5618918
======
jacquesm
I'm sure they will find a way to cut the usual suspects in so they can make
their money without lifting a finger.

I spent a lot of time and money on a rural internet project in Canada. Every
time we entered a community suddenly there would be a project from the local
telcos and cable companies to wire up that one community. They would never do
this proactive, just reactive and unless we threatened to move in they would
never lift a finger and continue to charge an arm and a leg for some
ridiculously slow service.

These government sanctioned monopolies are terrible for Canada.

~~~
btilly
A key point from
[https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/1072/9...](https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/1072/992)
is that wired technologies are inherently natural monopolies and you only get
competition when government intervenes, while wireless is inherently NOT a
natural monopoly so you get competition UNLESS government intervenes.

The behavior that you observed is perfectly rational when connectivity is
delivered over a wire. The goal is to make it clear to the competitor that
they can't make money anywhere that they try to compete.

But in this case SpaceX will be delivering connectivity to everywhere, all at
once. The targeted efforts that incumbents can use to shut down local upstarts
don't work when the location to exert extra effort in is "everywhere".

~~~
pishpash
Wireless spectrum is not an infinite resource.

~~~
HALtheWise
Directional antennas make wireless spectrum a lot closer to infinite. For
example, I believe that SpaceX has committed that their ground stations will
never transmit straight towards geostationary orbit, meaning that Starlink can
use the same frequency bands as geostationary satellite services. With proper
coordination, increasingly narrow beams can transmit increasingly more data
over the same spectrum.

------
gpm
Plugging the site I just created that shows current (live) starlink coverage:
[https://droid.cafe/starlink](https://droid.cafe/starlink)

As a Canadian I'm pretty excited about the potential for good internet outside
of the cities and well beaten paths.

~~~
cartooncutout
degrees from horizon?

~~~
gpm
Imagine you're standing in a flat field, facing the satellite. Degrees from
the horizon is how far you would have to bend your neck to be looking straight
at the satellite.

FCC filings suggest 25 is the absolute minimum for service, the final
constellation is likely to use somewhere in 40-60 as the actual limit.

I've received this question a few times now, anyone have a better name? Or
maybe I should just add a ? button with a diagram?

~~~
toomuchtodo
You might link to the graphic on this page as a quick reference. Should be
public domain as a government work if you want to host it.

[https://spotthestation.nasa.gov/message_example.cfm](https://spotthestation.nasa.gov/message_example.cfm)

[https://spotthestation.nasa.gov/images/astro_horizon.png](https://spotthestation.nasa.gov/images/astro_horizon.png)

------
vchynarov
I have ranted about the terrible quality of consumer telecommunications in
Canada for years - I am terribly excited. I have lived in both the US and
Canada, moving between both for the past 6 years, and I am always thrilled to
use American providers.

Anecdotal data point: For a while, AT&T had an North-America wide plan for
$~40/45 for month with 10G LTE with the rest being 3G. I kept this in Canada
because there would be nothing close to this there - it was cheaper to use the
American service.

I've always used my own phone with prepaid plans and the cheapest plans in
Canada are awful compared to the cheapest plans in the USA. I also lived in
the GTA, not some remote village.

~~~
canada_dry
Another Canuck here... I've been using a low cost data-less plan for years
because I can't justify paying four+ times as much just for data when I'm away
from wifi!

When I traveled in Africa _several years ago_ I paid about $20 for a one month
data plan (1GB IIRC) that included a usb dongle to connect to my laptop. In
Canada the same service would have cost ~$100 at the time.

The duopoly in Canada ensures little will change unless it's mandated by
legislation. Having Musk enter the fray is welcomed news.

~~~
gnabgib
Is your duopoly DSL (Bell, Telus, SaskTel, TekSavvy^) and Cable (Shaw, Rogers,
Cogeco, Videotron, TekSavvy^)? Or some subset of the mobile (Telus, Rogers,
Bell, Shaw/Freedom, Fido^, Chatr^, Koodo^, Virgin^, 7-11^, PC^, PetroCanada^)
providers? Either way, this is a bit disingenuous. Totally agree we pay too
much, but 6GB with a $1G phone subsidy for $70cad (52usd) is competitive.

Yes we get hosed on roaming (even you Rogers). But, it turns out a local sim
is inexpensive, unlocking is guaranteed free even even under that contract
(for more than a year now)

It was terrible, it's currently improving. It doesn't compare to a £15 sim in
London with 15GB of data and unlimited chat/text in 2017. Nor do the plans for
Canada's shorts[0]

[0] :
[https://www.google.com/search?q=canada's+shorts](https://www.google.com/search?q=canada's+shorts)

------
def8cefe
>"I live in rural Ontario where there are no providers that can provide
internet at a fast and affordable price," said Mahdi Hossinzehi, a resident of
Cedar Valley, Ont., about 30 kilometres north of Toronto. "With fast, reliable
and affordable internet, rural areas will benefit immensely economically, and
a lot of younger people won't end up leaving for the city."

>Carol Jobity of Adjala-Tosorontio, just west of Barrie, Ont., is similarly
supportive.

>"Please approve this," Jobity wrote to the regulator. "We're in support 100
per cent."

>Iqaluit resident Brandt Chu said he's in favour of the proposal because of
how remote life can be in Nunavut.

I find it a bit amusing that 2/3 of the people complaining live in
municipalities within commuting distance of Toronto. Surely CBC could have
found comments from more than one Canadian who actually lives in a remote
rural area, Barrie and Cedar Valley do not count. Those two areas would be
better served by a wireless ISP, unlike truly remote areas which make up large
swaths of the province.

~~~
ctheb
The remote areas you refer to are a small fraction of the population compared
to the GTA (greater Toronto area.) Should a highly visible revenue-oriented
corporation really aim to improve connectivity out in the boonies?

~~~
def8cefe
>Should a highly visible revenue-oriented corporation really aim to improve
connectivity out in the boonies?

That's the only place the service will function, unless you're using it in a
park or field somewhere in the GTA... so yeah I guess.

~~~
DuskStar
It'll also function just fine on your roof - the issue with population density
is just that bandwidth is limited per area, and so there's much lower
bandwidth per person in metro areas.

~~~
def8cefe
>It'll also function just fine on your roof

Assuming your roof is the same height or higher than nearby roofs and other
obstructions.

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chrisandchips
I yearn for the day when our god-awful telecommunications industry finely
catches up to the rest of the world. I just moved back from France, and its
better keeping my French number’s international plan (18 euros a month for 30
gigs of data) then any competing canadian offer. Since I have a phone
supporting dual sim, ill probably get the cheapest canadian plan I can just so
that I have a canadian number.

If spacex wants to do this, I’m all for it

Edit: I know the article isnt targeting this, I just cant help but rant

~~~
toomuchtodo
If your phone supports wifi calling, it should work with a StarLink ground
terminal (or if StarLink partners with an OEM who can build them voice
terminals with a satellite-capable antenna Iridium style).

~~~
chrisandchips
That’s a good point, I mostly would just want a canadian number for all the
bureaucracy that requires it, unfortunately

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JamesCoyne
The application was made in May: (look for "Space Exploration Technologies
Corp.")

[https://services.crtc.gc.ca/pub/instances-
proceedings/Defaul...](https://services.crtc.gc.ca/pub/instances-
proceedings/Default-Defaut.aspx?S=O&PA=T&PT=BITS&PST=A&Lang=eng)

Western Canada only has one rural ISP of note: Xplorenet. Competition would be
a welcome change here.

~~~
bryanlarsen
The farmers I know use a cell phone modem. I'm sure they'd love to switch if
Starlink lives up to the hype.

------
armytricks
With Tesla's application to generate electricity in the UK and this, they're
both starting to look like proper conglomerates.

~~~
ryan93
Tesla supplies ~0% of the worlds telecom and electricity services.

~~~
zaroth
\- _Their year over year percentage growth is going to be astronomical._

~~~
OkGoDoIt
Perfect choice of words, pun intended?

~~~
zaroth
Like, way to ruin the joke man. </s>

------
Sytten
That would be so wonderful, it is stupid how things are run currently and it
so expensive for no good reason. I wish we had nationalized the internet
providers a while ago. That would have allowed us to just write in the law
that everybody should have access to the internet. Pretty much like
electricity is run in Quebec. It works great, it's cheap and the government
even makes money.

~~~
rayiner
Like the New York subway which managed to deteriorate to collapse during a
period when the City's fortunes and tax revenues were booming?
[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/nyregion/mta-train-
delays...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/nyregion/mta-train-delays.html)

Here in DC, the public labor unions forced the government to rehire subway
inspectors who had gotten fired for falsifying inspection logs. (Public police
systems in the U.S. face the same exact problem, except with far deadlier
consequences.)

~~~
lutorm
Sorry, but an anecdote of the government failing to do something is no more an
argument it won't work than an anecdote of a company failing to do something
is an argument _that_ won't work. Especially in light of the OP's existence
proof. (You only have to succeed once to prove that it can be done, but any
line of failures proves nothing more than that success isn't guaranteed...)

~~~
rayiner
Two case studies of the two busiest subway systems in the country (subways
being an instance of public infrastructure that we have). Do you want to talk
about the public water infrastructure that’s poisoning kids with lead, or the
public sewer infrastructure that’s poisoning our rivers?

------
underdeserver
What's the latency and bandwidth they'd be offering?

~~~
duxup
Starlink is saying they're shooting for below 20ms but there's been no
verification of that... not clear if Starlink has even hit that target yet.
They're pretty tight lipped about everything a this point.

~~~
BiteCode_dev
Musk companies are working like agile software teams, except with hardware.
I'm excepting that they actually launched the satellite before being able to
make them work.

They tend to figure things on the way. Or not :)

~~~
duxup
Yeah even their 20ms number, the first I saw of it was when they applied for
some government money, it's possible that number didn't exist until someone
saw the requirement on the paperwork ;)

------
dghughes
In my little province I recall fiber being run one summer in the early 1990s.
I assumed it was future proofing for the Internet which most local people
hadn't heard of yet.

But 25 years later there are constant political squabbles over why no ISP has
followed through. Many plans and lots of money has been spent planning but
then an election occurs.

The newly elected party exclaims the other guys had it all wrong and we need
to start over.

------
Fizzer
I'll be interested to see how SpaceX tries to get the word out to rural
Canadians once it launches. None of Elon's current companies have had to do
any traditional marketing yet, but I suspect that they'll have to for this.

~~~
pletsch
If it works as well as he is promising, he won't have to spend a dime, word
will spread.

------
hinkley
If they've started with orbits over Canada, what other countries can they
serve with the same satellites?

My great circle skills are lacking, and looking at a globe it seems like a lot
of water for the rest of the orbit.

~~~
Rebelgecko
A single great circle isn't a great way to model an orbit because it won't
take into account the precession of the earth. It's a bit more accurate (but
still not quite right) to say that that the constellation covers every single
great circle with the same value of theta. In other words, it covers any part
of the earth with equal or lower latitude.

However that's a bit of a simplification that ignores things like the need for
ground stations, local laws (I will be astounded if they're allowed to
broadcast over China), gaps in their orbital shells (such gaps probably don't
actually exist, I haven't looked carefully at their orbits), local
obstructions like mountains/valleys, etc

~~~
gpm
> gaps in their orbital shells (such gaps probably don't actually exist, I
> haven't looked carefully at their orbits),

Eventually they won't, right now they do.

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ronnier
Will this help with censorship? Some countries are blocking websites and
various other apps. Maybe this is a way out.

~~~
lutorm
You need the user terminal and it seems unlikely those countries would allow
SpaceX to ship the UTs there without an agreement.

------
oh_sigh
Has Musk ever talked about what the plans will provide in terms of bandwidth?

~~~
pjscott
In reply to an inquiry about rural broadband, one of SpaceX's sales engineers
told the Nebraska state government about a year ago:

"Service levels of 100 Mbps down / 40 Mbps up would generally be anticipated,
but depends on how dense the user-base is within a region. Latency will be
very low, ~30 ms or so, far quicker than existing satellite-based solutions
due to our much lower orbit, and comparable to fiber. User segment is a
19-inch electronically steered antenna, mounted on one’s rooftop."

And a more recent test by the Air Force measured 610 Mbps with an aircraft in
flight, though of course there was very little contention to worry about.

~~~
shaklee3
It will certainly not be 40Mbps upload. That's very difficult to achieve with
satellite, especially for the dish they have.

------
cryptoz
Only _remote_ Canadians, for now I think, in case some Canadians get excited
(and didn't read past the headline). Not yet.

> Elon Musk's SpaceX has applied to offer high-speed internet to Canadians
> living in remote areas by beaming it to them via satellites.

~~~
blocked_again
Why will non remote Canadians get excited about high speed internet? They
already have that.

~~~
TheCapn
Not sure of your knowledge of the Canadian Telecom market but in certain urban
centers there's virtually no competition (or if there is competition its
borderline collusion between our three major carriers). I know a _lot_ of
people wishing for competitive options to disconnect themselves from
Rogers/Bell/Telus and would see this as something compelling.

~~~
greeniron
not sure about collusion between the big 3, but for both my mobile and
internet provider (2 different ones), i've successfully pitted them against
each other by calling to say i'm switching over to their competitor and
repeatedly got discounts for it. i'm currently paying $45/mth for 20gb from
Fido Pulse BYOD plan with unlimited talk and text, and for home internet i'm
paying $55/mth for 750mbps fibre from Telus.

~~~
nicholascamera
Wow, teach me how! I pay $67 for 13GB data and $60 for 40mpbs at home in
Montreal. Which province?

~~~
greeniron
this is in BC. every 3-4 months, i keep calling, ask for "customer retention
department" and threaten to leave. sometimes i just say "got any promos for
me?" and they'll just offer whatever they can. sometimes if they have an
attitude, i just hang up and call back for another more friendly agent. i've
done this for the past 2 yrs and always ends up with at least a new $5/mth
discount added to my bill, so by now my bill is super low.

~~~
nicholascamera
I will give this a shot!

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abledon
what mbps range is "high-speed internet"

~~~
modeless
100

~~~
abledon
holy, i'm getting 5 mbps here in rural area

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AzzieElbab
could they instead offer urban canadians reasonably priced mobile phone
service?

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matthewsommer
Ah, our beta testers to the north...

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mandeepj
Besides -

1\. SpaceX will also offer high frequency travel in space and around earth

