
College students lost access to legal pot and started getting better grades - sndean
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/07/25/these-college-students-lost-access-to-legal-pot-and-started-getting-better-grades/
======
ntsplnkv2
It's sad to see such a brigade of hate/insecurity around any pot study. It's a
shame. Every time there is some inkling of negativity the panic sets in, they
criticize the study (which is valid, but how often is the criticism valid),
they bring up how alcohol is worse, when this wasn't even a comparison to
alcohol.

Marijuana should absolutely be legalized. But we can't just ignore its
effects. I get it-weed helps a lot of people out, and it isn't that bad of a
drug. But you can't just simply dismiss everything that you don't like that
comes out.

~~~
43224gg252
>Every time there is some inkling of negativity the panic sets in, they
criticize the study

Source? Is there any empirical evidence that this is happening or is this just
what you're telling your self? IMHO, it's quite the opposite -- anytime
cannabinoids are shown to have medical value people claim "correlation does
not imply causation" and "we need more studies" and "this only works in a
lab!!1".

~~~
linkregister
I think the parent poster is just referring to negativity in this thread, not
claiming a statistically significant sentiment trend in comments sections
about marijuana studies.

I agree that among policy makers, unfounded anti-cannabis bias is predominant,
despite the studies you mention.

------
meri_dian
Weed is not a panacea. Some people foolishly think otherwise. It should still
be legalized, but we have to be realistic about its negatives

~~~
chillwaves
Nobody believes weed will make you better at studying.

Nobody.

~~~
bigspider421
Nothing is absolute - I'm a medical user (with anxiety/ADHD/depression) and
it's been a complete lifesaver for me, working where pharmaceuticals did not.
I did not respond well to traditional stimulants (they only made me more
anxious and racy) but medical cannabis is literally the only reason why I was
able to function through my PhD program which I had completed two years ago at
a top-tier U.S. institution.

FWIW, I am very selective with my strains - only certain types actually help,
and my dosage is mild enough to not have strong psychoactive effects (higher
CBD-strains). Medical cannabis has truly had a significant impact on the
trajectory of my life.

~~~
wyclif
_only certain types actually help_

Out of curiosity, what are those? I'm not an expert and I'm really only aware
of the sativa/indica divide.

~~~
aaronbrethorst
From the GP: "higher CBD-strains"

Here's a description of how CBD differs from THC:
[https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabis-101/whats-the-deal-
with...](https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabis-101/whats-the-deal-with-these-
high-cbd-strains) and I can attest to what it says. I don't like feeling high,
but I do like feeling mellow. It's sort of like the difference between having
a glass of wine and pounding shots to me.

------
ellyagg
I believe it. However, there's more to life than squeezing maximal efficiency
and productivity out of human beings.

~~~
chickenfries
Exactly. You could probably do the same thing for alcohol. Or video games.

~~~
weberc2
Wasnt the article comparing pot users with non pot users? Presumably the
control group included people who drink same play video games as well?

~~~
chickenfries
This is one of the problems with recreational drug studies. Its hard to find
people who only do one drug and then people who live similar life styles to
them but sober. I remember and MDMA study that looked at ravers in Utah
because a large number of them were sober to study the effects of MDMA while
accounting for the raver lifestyle of staying up for many hours dancing and
often dehydrated.

------
sundvor
Would love to see the same experiment repeated somehow, but for alcohol /
partying. Then compare the two.

~~~
danso
In college I was a residence hall advisor in a dorm that was advertised as
being more studious, including a zero-tolerance policy on alcohol (students
could be kicked out if seen even holding an empty beer can). I'm sure the
grades in the dorm were higher, but hat dorm tended to attract students who
were going to be more studious/less drunkenly already.

~~~
threatofrain
I have an anecdote about a religious college that bans alcohol, and students
would get drunk outside and drive back drunk, so there's a lingering question
about whether the policy saves more lives in sum.

I don't see the same complexities or side effects with banning video games,
TV, or even weed.

~~~
zild3d
The similar complexity with weed is that you push people to find it through
illegal channels, dealing with drug dealers of various levels of severity

------
voidhorse
I'll just reiterate what a great deal of other sensible folks have already
said: I think it's quite silly to try and use this study to draw or support
any overarching conclusion about whether weed should be legal or not.

Of course your grades will be affected if you smoke when you ought to be
studying.

Of course your grades will be affected if you drink when you ought to be
studying.

Of course your grades will be affected if you study (the wrong course
material) when you ought to be studying.

Basing decisions about legality and restraints on individual freedoms on
things like _average_ academic performance reduces individualism and pushes,
by default, a sort of nationalistic view. "No you may not do X because it
makes you a less valuable asset to the nation state, and you are meant for
nothing more than service to the nation state."

Even innocent studies like this hide dangerous potential ideologies and
subterranean reductions of individual freedom that politicians will try to
push.

------
fzeroracer
Of course, the largest flaw with any sort of marijuana-based study is that the
effects of marijuana on the user vary based on the strain and THC content. The
authors admitted that the level of THC content in Maastricht’s strains of
marijuana tend to be around double that of the US.

Unfortunately any real controlled studies are going to be difficult as long as
Marijuana remains such a vilified topic, which results in studies like this
being used as ammo rather than another point of data.

~~~
drewmol
I agree. Not real strongly opinioned on either side, but I encourage data
based research and rational discussion. A specific semi-common irrational
opinion I've noticed with the growing percentage of states to legalize
marijuana: The mentality that we must change regulation in order to keep
'stoned' drivers off the road (be able to issue DUI's). It's my understanding
that marijuana had a negligible impact on the motor-cortex and reaction timing
wrt operating a motor vehicle. Many professional athletes testify to using it
before performing some of the most coordinated, reaction timing dependent
physical activities of anyone on earth. DUI's were a result of the fact that
drunk people tend get in more car wrecks, especially fatal ones.

------
phaed
This the main reason I quit use of THC for pain relief. It wrecks your memory
recall abilities. You lose a good 10 IQ points. Not good for devs.

~~~
valuearb
Source? Or did you forget?

~~~
phaed
I'm talking from personal experience. Your ability to keep a train of thought
is impaired, you struggle to build the house of cards in-memory to do any kind
of extended analysis, the cards you put down simply vanish from memory. You
feel empirically dumber.

At its worse, you start to talk about a topic, branch into a subtopic, and are
unable to find your way back. You find yourself asking people "what was I
talking about?" all of the time, imagine doing this in the middle of a
presentation or while talking to a client.

Relevant Study:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931635/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931635/)

~~~
rconti
You mean, while you're actually intoxicated? No kidding!

Or do you mean while NOT impaired, as a result of regular "after-hours" use?

~~~
phaed
Not only while medicated. The memory issue is cumulative, it is slow onset and
stays with you until at least 3 months after complete abstinence.

------
perpetualcrayon
It might be interesting for them to keep track of how long it takes the black
market to reappear, and see whether the negatives that come along with
allowing criminals to monopolize the business of dealing drugs to people in
the area reappear also.

~~~
perpetualcrayon
Come to think of it, given that they state in the article:

    
    
      drug tourism was posing difficulties for the city
    

I wonder if they take into account the fact that these "problems" could've
been affecting students and their grades as well. What happens if only the
"drug tourism" disappeared?

~~~
scott00
This was controlled for by the native students, who also experienced any
improvement in the city's environment, but did not experience the ban.

~~~
hug
Not entirely.

The students who were banned were those visiting from out of country so it's
possible to argue that the students performance is increased by preventing
them from being drug-tourists. Not sensible, but possible.

------
tmnvix
Still less detrimental to a life than prison, because let's face it - legal or
not, students will smoke pot.

~~~
richardknop
I don't think you go to prison for smoking pot. The only way I can imagine you
end up in prison is if police catch you with some massive amount of weed which
means you are a big time dealer / manufacturer.

A student with few grams of pot on him/her will not go to prison for sure.

~~~
tmnvix
Probably depends on your background.

I'm pretty sure people are regularly imprisoned for marijuana possession due
to 'three strikes' laws (in many states, possessing what I would consider to
be a reasonable quantity for personal use would qualify as a felony).

------
perpetualcrayon
Here's the study in question:

[http://www.restud.com/wp-
content/uploads/2017/03/MS20610manu...](http://www.restud.com/wp-
content/uploads/2017/03/MS20610manuscript.pdf)

------
devrandomguy
I bet banning refined sugar products would have a more significant effect.

~~~
venning
Honest question: is there any evidence that refined sugar has a deleterious
effect on brain function? I can find this: [1], but I'm not sure how to
interpret it.

Yes, weed and sugar are both addictive, but it is my understanding that the
reduction in performance is not due to the addiction itself.

[1] [http://neuro.hms.harvard.edu/harvard-mahoney-neuroscience-
in...](http://neuro.hms.harvard.edu/harvard-mahoney-neuroscience-
institute/brain-newsletter/and-brain-series/sugar-and-brain)

~~~
FullMtlAlcoholc
While I'm not aware of any study that ties intake of excess sugar to a decline
in cognitive function, there was a study that linked diets with a high
glycemic index to higher rates of depression, specifically post menopausal as
the participants were new mothers:

[http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2015/06/24/ajcn.11...](http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2015/06/24/ajcn.114.103846.abstract?papetoc#aff-1)

------
ninjahatori1
I come from a place (Jaipur, IN) where weed is legal since a very long time,
there are people I've met who are 90 and still consuming marijuana on
daily/weekly basis and don't regret about it, I hadn't listen any
incident/accident that happened because of weed. neither to folks are
underachievers, they are respected professors, artists or daily wage workers.
meanwhile, drink and drive accidents are very common here, and consuming
liquor is considered a malignant.

------
CryoLogic
The sole reason I don't smoke pot even when my friends are to is because in
addition to my existing ADD, my memory span on pot is diminished
significantly.

~~~
bigspider421
I've found the opposite - certain strains have been remarkable for my ADHD
(although out of reach for anyone in a non-medical state). The strains I
generally use have low psychoactive properties and alleviate anxiety without
sedative effects.

------
WheelsAtLarge
Thanks to scare tactics and the never ending publicity that wants us to
believe it's a miracle drug. We've lost sight that pot really has it's
downside. We need fact based education, no bs scare tactics, to emphasise that
to users. Pot has its strong benefits but we can't lose sight of its bad side
and users need to understand that. Specially now that it's being legalized in
so many states.

------
indspenceable
Seems like no one's commenting that the study isn't actually about marijuana -
it's regarding the access to the cafes. My instinct tells me that they're
probably not entirely off on the conclusion but it seems like a more
complicated relationship - if I couldn't get into the place where all my
friends hung out, of course I'd have more time to study!

~~~
perpetualcrayon
Appears they accounted for whether amount of study time increased as a result
of the ban.

From the study:

    
    
      We find no change in reported study hours, which suggests
      that we can eliminate effort adjustments as one channel of
      our results. [1]
    

My thought on this is focused mostly on the fact that the city was apparently
filled with "problematic drug tourism". In other words it appears they're
saying the city was becoming (if not already) a "college party town". I'd be
curious to know what kinds of "distractions" ended up leaving the city because
of the ban.

[1] [http://www.restud.com/wp-
content/uploads/2017/03/MS20610manu...](http://www.restud.com/wp-
content/uploads/2017/03/MS20610manuscript.pdf)

------
siliconc0w
I knew a couple of semi-heavy users that were great students but they were
probably the exception. Similar to alcohol, young people tend to fall into the
'more is better' fallacy and overdo it. Especially with things like
concentrates or edibles. I think there is a bit of a 'ballmer peak' to help
with certain tasks but it requires some diligence around strain and dosage and
it's not for everyone.

~~~
jumbopapa
There are obviously exceptions - the last bit of the article kind of explained
that.

>But what the Maastricht study can do is provides highly credible evidence
that marijuana legalization will lead to decreased academic success — perhaps
particularly so for struggling students

Basically good students will continue to.be good, but the bad students will
suffer.

------
richardknop
Another anecdote from personal experience. Smoking pot decreased my cognitive
abilities quite dramatically (not only while intoxicated but for days/weeks
after).

I am certain it is detrimental to your intellectual abilities at least
temporarily. It would definitely lower your grades and I think it is also
detrimental to any job where you do mental labour (e.g. software engineering).

------
oculusthrift
so the study compared international students who didn't have access to pot
legally versus students who were citizens? Am i misinterpreting something? It
seems more likely that international students are simply better students. I
doubt it would be that hard for them to get weed anyway.

~~~
mejari
No, it compared individual students' grades before and after they lost access
to recreational marijuana. They mention the local students because it was a
group where no event happened so it helps show that there wasn't some other
factor that brought up everyone's grades over that time.

------
pasbesoin
My friend who wanted to become a doctor was blowing it in his undergrad
science classes.

He took my suggestion to turn the music off while studying for his next test.

And got an A.

Just saying...

------
xfiz
Huh, I'm surprised they could do it, ban EU-citizen while still allowing Ditch
nationals. I thought they aren't allowed to do that within the EU.

~~~
apexalpha
It is allowed, see EU court results here:

[http://curia.europa.eu/juris/liste.jsf?pro=&lgrec=nl&nat=or&...](http://curia.europa.eu/juris/liste.jsf?pro=&lgrec=nl&nat=or&oqp=&dates=&lg=&language=en&jur=C%2CT%2CF&cit=none%252CC%252CCJ%252CR%252C2008E%252C%252C%252C%252C%252C%252C%252C%252C%252C%252Ctrue%252Cfalse%252Cfalse&num=C-137%252F09&td=%3BALL&pcs=Oor&avg=&page=1&mat=or&jge=&for=&cid=735144)

------
scott00
Does anybody know if you can take the pot out of the cafes or if you have to
smoke it there? I wonder if it's not less pot smoking but less going out.

------
IIAOPSW
What happened when the students lost access to Adderall?

------
em3rgent0rdr
"The most rigorous study yet"

I searched the article for placebo and didn't find any mention.

~~~
jtl999
How would you propose a placebo in this context?

~~~
em3rgent0rdr
well it would be hard with marijuana leaf. But you could have a vaping
placebo, and compare that with vaping the real thing. Maybe the vaping placebo
material could be made from marijuana but with the cannabis removed. I don't
know enough how marijuana works, tbh, but something along those lines.

~~~
mejari
Except this isn't an experiment, where they control the conditions. It's
monitoring natural behavior. Just saying "placebo" makes no sense for this
kind of study. That'd be like asking for a placebo in a national poll.

The kind of thing you're talking about would be an experiment, where they
bring people in and use various measures to quantify various types of
intelligence after smoking marijuana. In that situation yes you could use a
placebo as one group. But even then it's not always appropriate, and just
skimming an article and dismissing it by saying "no placebo!" makes no sense.
Not all experiments do use or should use a placebo as part of their
methodology, and _this isn 't even an experiment_.

~~~
em3rgent0rdr
> "this isn't an experiment"

Well then this "study" is just an observation. So it probably doesn't warrant
the amount of attention it is getting, to say nothing of people using this
"study" as evidence. Observation is an early step of the scientific method,
but now they need to perform a scientific experiment in order to make this
newsworthy. (Well I guess it is "newsworthy" in that it makes for high click-
through...)

~~~
mejari
>Well then this "study" is just an observation.

Yes. Many studies are.

> So it probably doesn't warrant the amount of attention it is getting, to say
> nothing of people using this "study" as evidence.

It seems like you lack an understanding of how science works? Because the fact
that this is an observation doesn't mean that it isn't evidence. Observation
is like one of they key kinds of evidence.

>but now they need to perform a scientific experiment in order to make this
newsworthy

No they don't. That's not how this works, at all. It's still valid meaningful
evidence. I mean, do you ever read stories about stellar discoveries? Do you
think they aren't worth reading because they didn't do an experiment to re-
create the black hole they discovered in a lab?

------
foota
I haven't read the study, but I would be willing to suggest that another
effect could be that removing access to marijuana meant students spent less
time high, and correspondingly more time productive.

------
harry8
Significance and size of the effect.

Ban Netflix (and all other video and movie entertainment) and you'd get a
bigger for both, less emotive than "Illegal Drugs!!!11!" though.

------
sverige
I quit smoking weed years ago when I noticed when I was reading that I had
forgotten the meaning of some words that I once knew. Smoking is great until
it makes you stupid.

~~~
flukus
How do you distinguish what you forgot from smoking weed with what you just
plain forgot?

It's amazing what you can forget, even stuff that has been drilled into you.
I'd forgotten how to do long division until recently, despite doing it over
and over again in primary school to pick one example. The brain is very much
"use it or lose it".

~~~
sverige
I had known these words for years. The feeling of knowing that you used to
know what, say, "superannuated" or "collusion" or "hegemony" meant, but right
now you haven't a clue, is distressing.

These words were in long-term memory. My memory was slowly restored after I
quit. Smokers will readily admit that their short-term memory is damaged by
marijuana use, but not much is said about damage to long-term memory.

------
darpa_escapee
Better to keep it illegal, so that if students get caught with it, they lose
their student aid and federal loans instead.

