
Google terminated our startup's developer account – what do we do? - braydo25
https://www.reddit.com/r/androiddev/comments/b2ztr0/google_terminated_our_startups_developer_account/
======
braydo25
I'm not sure what specifically caused it, but a representative from the Play
policy team just reached out to us and has given a thorough review of our
developer account and reinstated it.

We are extremely grateful to anyone in this community that may have played a
hand in having a real person at the Play policy team reach out, as well as the
ongoing conversation here to improve overall relations between the Play store
and it's developers.

~~~
comboy
I was just rationalizing in my head that I only hear one side of the story,
that surely there were some good reasons they were banned. Google has a lot of
users, and I only hear about those worst cases and so on.

But no, get to the frontpage and poof, it's solved. It really sucks for all
those startups who didn't have luck getting their post viral.

~~~
yeldarb
Even if you _do_ go viral there's no guarantee :-/
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3803568](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3803568)

It's 7 years later and my company is still banned from Adsense and to this day
they've never told us why.

On the bright side, I should be seeing some of the class action settlement
money any day now..
[http://www.adsensepublishersettlement.com](http://www.adsensepublishersettlement.com)

~~~
philliphaydon
I had about 30 domains at one point so I set them all up on Adsense as I
wasn’t using them. I spent about 3 days setting it up. On the last day I went
and checked all 30 domains to make sure I setup all of them. 2 days later I
got banned. So I was on Adsense for 5 days total. But I’ve never cared to
contest it cos I don’t care. But I don’t understand how Google can’t ignore my
views to Adsense.

~~~
cableshaft
Exactly, they can definitely detect your own views, why they can't just toss
them out, I don't know. One time I got curious what the ads on my site were
for and checked a few of the links out. I was banned permanently shortly
after.

------
techaddict009
[https://blog.usejournal.com/google-wrongly-terminated-our-
ne...](https://blog.usejournal.com/google-wrongly-terminated-our-new-business-
via-our-google-play-developer-
account-5f5b7b742542?_branch_match_id=561986868701905453&gi=afb9263ab1e8)
story of another startup.

And mine too. I had a small utility calculator app with some 100k download and
play store suddenly deleted the account. The app was in partnership with
someone. No reason nothing. No way to restore.

Play stores auto termination policy sucks to hell.

Update: I just saw the post back. Since it went viral google reinitiated their
account to probably shut the matter (instead of fixing the main cause of issue
it seems)

~~~
gowld
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19124324](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19124324)

They (potentially inadvertently) hired a dev team that was previously banned
for malware, so Google terminated the account and banned these new partners of
the malware team.

Did your partnership have the same problem?

What is missing from Play (or the ecosystem) is a way to ask if the people you
just hired are on their ban list, before you register your app with Google.

~~~
jayd16
It seems like the full story is always less than reputable contractors. Set up
fresh accounts yourself, people!

~~~
deogeo
They were banned for 'association' \- that makes me believe that even if you
set up a fresh account yourself, if someone that was previously banned works
on it, and Google finds out, you could still be banned.

Also, banned by Google != less than reputable.

~~~
em500
Some form of 'association' is probably unavoidable, otherwise it would be
trivial to game for truly bad actors.

Big problem is that the current policy seems to insufficiently discriminatory
between bad actors and accidental policy infringement. Perhaps they can start
with short bans and rapidly increase ban length on recidivism.

~~~
int_19h
Side note: this is basically what the hypothetical "private police" would look
like, except it would be people and not apps that get removed...

------
noonespecial
They seem to think they have plenty of developers to burn through like this as
if they were some sort of consumable.

But if every developer who has been banned can get other developers banned
just by association, this will start slow and then move like an epidemic.

They don't know it yet but unchecked this will seem to them to instantly
become an existential threat to the play store. There's nothing like a
geometric progression to make you think everything is a-ok just before it all
goes to hell.

~~~
godzillabrennus
Google is already established as a god awful vendor partner.

It’s reflected in their cloud divisions performance.

Anyone sane is using someone else if they can.

~~~
josteink
I literally know _zero_ people using Google Cloud. Everyone is on Amazon or
Azure.

I can count the times google has burnt my hand though...

~~~
klardotsh
Welp, today you get to meet one, hi, I'm klardotsh!

Don't get me wrong - I hate it and wish we were on AWS for a multitude of
reasons, but we use Google Cloud at Lumen5 and despite my personal distaste
for it, it mostly "just works" most of the time, even if almost zero of the
setup is intuitive. Their Kubernetes offering is a stronger sell than AWS's
(IMO) which is a big reason we've stuck with it.

~~~
cbdumas
If you are hoping that moving to AWS will give you access to "intuitive"
setup, I have some bad news for you.

------
kerng
Google is automating things to a scary degree, with no way to appeal or ever
even talk to a human. Unless you are a big corporation and have an account
manager things can be tough. Similar with GCP, countless horror stories over
the years. I wonder if Google ever plans to address these issues or if in
grand money scheme of things it just doesnt matter.

~~~
mark-r
This has been the way Google has worked from the beginning. Stories like this
need to be shouted from the rooftops every time they happen, just to warn
people. Google got to where they are today by building absolutely everything
with a mind to scale, and justice doesn't scale.

~~~
nikofeyn
turns out "don't be evil" doesn't scale.

~~~
teddyh
Neither does “be evil”. Don’t anthropomorphize the paperclip maximizer.

~~~
nikofeyn
i have no idea what that means.

~~~
dcbadacd
This game explains the paperclip maximizer:
[http://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/](http://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/)

~~~
teddyh
No? Not as far as I can see. This is better:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_convergence#Paper...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_convergence#Paperclip_maximizer)

~~~
dcbadacd
You haven't played it long enough to see how it becomes the paperclip
maximizer, I posted the link to the game because everyone can find the
Wikipedia link.

------
mindslight
I've got to wonder if, after basic Twit-shaming becomes no longer scalable,
Google support will basically end up taking the same essential shape as IRS
support - if you receive a nastygram, you turn it over to your professional
account/attorney/googvocate who's entire specialty is knowing how to "talk to"
the organization.

~~~
rootusrootus
That is not a great comparison. IRS phone support is actually pretty good. I
would be ecstatic if Google could get even halfway there.

~~~
curun1r
They’re actually fantastic and have a genuine desire to arrive at the correct
number. I had one take over an hour on the phone to explain to me the logic
behind the IRS’s position and, once it became clear that the problem was with
a corrupted data import and the cost basis was incorrectly computed, took two
more hours of his own time without me having to wait on the phone to arrive at
the conclusion that the IRS actually owed me money. He could have resolved the
call immediately by saying that he saw my position and that he’d cancel the
correction and I probably would’ve accepted it. Instead, he went the extra
mile and figured out the correct refund, costing the government hundreds of
dollars and two more hours of his time.

I suspect the IRS gets a bad rap because people don’t like owing money and the
IRS is usually right when they send corrections, but my experience left me
with nothing but respect for their front-line support. To remain as friendly
and courteous as they were considering the rage that must be directed towards
them on a daily basis is pretty impressive.

~~~
JohnFen
The IRS has always been good with me -- they've been fair and fast (for a
federal government operation).

My state's revenue department is the one I truly fear.

~~~
sitkack
Illinois? Everything they ever sent was wrong.

~~~
protomyth
Yeah, the IRS is actually very good and the people who answer the phone know
what they are doing. I also like that they really try to get a solution you
can live with.

Never dealt with the state of ND, but my one dealing with Illinois makes me
think its not confined to the tax department. I detail my problems with their
DOT in
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5521011#5521345](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5521011#5521345)

------
itchyjunk
I guess the hope is to get on the front page of HN and hope someone in Play
policy team sees it? Pretty sad way of handling it. I wonder if this was an
automated action? I also wonder why that personal account was terminated.

~~~
braydo25
For others interested, we just had a sit down with the developer and asked why
they were previously terminated. They disclosed years ago they had created an
app, and then decide to rebrand it for other use cases - basically "templated"
apps in the play store. They were then terminated for violating the "spam"
policy.

~~~
tyingq
And banned for life, apparently? Hopefully someone at Google that cares about
avoiding antitrust action picks up this story.

------
antonkm
These are becoming quite common. If my account would be terminated my business
would be dead. How is Google not handling this better?

~~~
izacus
> These are becoming quite common. If my account would be terminated my
> business would be dead. How is Google not handling this better?

After drilling down into these posts it's very common to find those developers
stealing user data, using forbidden advertising techniques, infringing
copyright or simply trying to scam around Google's 30% payment cut. Apple
would kick them off the App store immediately as well (and even tell them
directly that running to media won't help).

If anything, Google is finally starting to clamp down on malware and
developers abusing user data.

~~~
freedomben
If we stipulate that you are totally correct (which I sincerely hope you are),
what about the effect that permanent blacklisting can have on an individual's
life? And if somebody gets banned, apparently now they must become "unclean"
and be kept far away lest they "infect" the company.

~~~
mr_toad
I wonder which is harder/takes longer, starting a new business after a SEC
violation, or some othe serious misdoing, or getting back on the Play Store.

------
aeternus
The new final step of company interview processes for Android devs:

Submit a demo app to the Google Play store using your developer account, your
offer will be contingent upon app approval.

------
ape4
Its almost like they want to be regulated.

------
DanAndersen
To any Google employees who read HN: please raise this general issue in your
internal groups and try to push to change this culture of faceless algorithmic
decision making. Companies should not have to rely on getting to the HN front
page to have a human being actually look at these issues. You have a voice
internally and if you don't use it, in some way you are complicit.

------
lgleason
This is why I don't use Google Cloud and steer other people away from it as
well. Google is not a reliable service provider.

------
throwaway28883
Unfortunately, this is the way things go. If you are going to build a business
on top of something offered by Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, etc, you will
never rest easy because you should know your app can be killed at any time for
any reason, right or wrong.

These companies are omnipotent and untouchable. They have these automated
systems in place because they have determined them to be the most cost
effective way of dealing with these issues. Even if there are specific cases
that seem ridiculous, or clearly harmful to the company itself, in aggregate
this is the system that works for them.

I learned this very early. For example, while in high school I had a (very)
small business buying things locally and reselling on ebay. Despite having
100% positive feedback, a scam artist one day claimed to Paypal that I shipped
him a brick when it was supposed to be a cell phone. The scammer had a brand
new account with no feedback at all, and I had no previous issues, but Paypal
decided to trust the scam artist over me with over 5 years of positive
feedback. I refused to pay back the negative balance that Paypal claimed I
owed them, and lost access to my account for over 15 years. During that time,
I started a successful e-commerce business doing annual revenue of $5-10
million. I'd have used Paypal to process all customer payments had my account
not been banned. Instead I integrated with Stripe, and Paypal lost out on
upwards of $500,000 in processing fees (and counting).

But still, Paypal succeeds, and does not care.

Another example - I was an investor in a small dating app a few years ago that
was doing quite well. Despite successful ad campaigns on Google, and in
Apple's app store, Facebook just decided to one day block the advertising
account, permanently and without reason. Despite vast effort (spanning
multiple years!) to at least figure out why we were banned, no explanation was
ever offered, and the app eventually was starved out due to inability to
access a prime advertising channel that our larger competitors were able to
access.

There is simply no way around this kind of thing. My advice is to never build
a business that relies on one of these platforms - use the web to your
advantage, don't get stuck behind someone else's walled garden. Try to make
apps only ancillary to your business, not the main component. Be able to
diversify advertising channels. Own your core competency - don't let someone
else steal it overnight.

And finally the reason for the throwaway account, I believe there are rogue
employees at these companies who can just shut down accounts for personal
vendettas, bribery schemes, or just the lulz. We suspect that's what happened
to us at facebook. So I do not want to jeopardize any current businesses I am
running or investing in that is personally tied to me.

~~~
JohnFen
What you say here is correct. I learned a more generalized version of this
with the first business I ever started:

if you are entirely dependent on a single supplier or a single customer, your
business is very much at risk.

------
rajangdavis
Just asking out loud, if you were a developer that was experimenting with
building apps and you accidentally violate some Play store terms of service,
would Google removing your app be a permanent black mark or how can you show
that you were acting on good faith?

------
dreamcompiler
This won't help you in the short term, but long term, this is where I'd
probably go.

[https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/](https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/)

------
eecc
Doesn’t it amount to mobbing to terminate all accounts related to companies
associated to a previously banned individual account? What’s that individual
to do? Turn to horticulture?

------
everyone
Is there some reason Google has zero support for developers? Any of the other
big corps I've had to deal with as a dev usually have some option to email
support to resolve issues. Some of them have amazing support, with live chat.
But Google is an impenetrable blank wall.

The obvious answer is to save money. Maybe they reckon the Play Store is
saturated so it doesnt really matter if 5% of devs say meet an impassable
roadblock ,it wont affect their revenue.

~~~
avinium
Even Adwords, their supposed jewel in the crown, has the worst customer
support I've ever experienced.

Have you ever tried contacting them? It's all offshored to India/Phillipines.
They refused to honour their GSuite free credit offer, then hung up on me when
I insisted they escalate the problem. The difference between their outbound
sales lines and their inbound support lines are laughable.

I assume it's better when you're pumping hundreds of thousands through them
every month. Even so, it inspires zero confidence in Google as a customer-
facing organization.

As far as I'm concerned, Google gives zero fucks about individual paying
customers. It's obvious why this is so - their search ecosystem is leagues
ahead of competitors, and it's so dominant that it's a licence to print money.
They don't need to offer you good support, because you _need_ them.

It's also why I don't hold out much hope for Stadia - an ecosystem that relies
on developer goodwill _needs_ excellent front-facing support, and Google just
doesn't do that.

As a side note, I truly believe Amazon is well positioned to invade search and
dethrone Google (though it would be a case of "The King is dead. Long live the
King!").

~~~
everyone
"their search ecosystem is leagues ahead of competitors" Not sure what u mean,
but if u just mean Google.com I dont believe thats true anymore. I switched to
DuckDuckGo a while back and it seems basically the same except u will get less
'sponsored' results garbage, and also I feel a little bit less en-bubbled when
using it.

~~~
avinium
Yes, I meant Google Search itself (plus the broader AdWords partner network,
YouTube, etc).

I'm on DDG for my primary search engine too, but

(a) I fall back to !G for at least 50% of my queries. (b) You and I are a
tiny, tiny minority. DDG users are not even a fraction of a rounding error in
the global search userbase.

DDG is nowhere near being a serious threat to Google - it may well in future,
but right now, Google still rules the roost (Facebook being the only other
equal). You only need to look at their respective financials to confirm it.

------
_bxg1
Bodes well for that new gaming platform they just announced.

------
basicplus2
smart people learn from their mistakes, and Really smart people learn from
other peoples mistakes and stay away from Google

------
Animats
Pivot to a product that doesn't require Google approval?

All the top apps today come from big companies. Mostly Google, in fact. The
era of the app startup is over. Why do you want to compete with Google while
under the control of Google?

 _If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face
— forever._ \- Orwell

~~~
acheron
This is Google, so the boot has ads on it.

~~~
pinewurst
And camera and microphone in the sole.

~~~
IOT_Apprentice
Don't forget the GPS in there as well.

------
smileypete
Sounds like there's almost a case for setting up 'mini silos'

Properly separated individual google accounts for phone, personal email, work
email, youtube, drive, etc

PITA but better than being SOL...

~~~
taneq
Or... NON-Google accounts for phone, personal email, work email, and don't log
in to YouTube.

------
on_and_off
TLDR : The guy that opened the company's account had got his own account
terminated years ago.

So their company account was closed as associated to that one.

I don't know what got in that guy's head when he created that account, google
is very strict when it comes to terminated devs trying to republish apps.

~~~
crooked-v
I'm not comfortable with the idea that Google can effectively dictate the
employment prospects of all Android developers forever, regardless of past
behavior.

~~~
em500
Lifetime bans are pretty harsh, but some form of time-based penalty is
probably quite reasonable to keep out truly bad actors and recidivists. (Even
with the current measures, the Play store was/is teeming with malware and
scammers.)

Perhaps some simple form of exponentially increasing penalty (start with 3
months, double/triple/quadruple at every next ban).

~~~
perl4ever
Perhaps some simple form of justice system, as has been developed in many
societies over centuries?

~~~
sundvor
There is a justice system, except the only penalty available is the death one.

~~~
perl4ever
As they say, it should be as simple as possible, but no simpler.

------
hutch120
Hi, Looks like you've put a ton of effort into building this app, so now time
to put some effort into the business side... pay for a support contract and
call them __on the phone __.

You don't need a lawyer, emails will hit the bot wall, just __call them __,
and keep calling them, and it that doesn 't work, go visit them. Got to fly to
CA, then do it, turn up at their door and talk to them.

[https://gsuite.google.com/support/](https://gsuite.google.com/support/)

Good luck!

~~~
amarshall
This isn’t about G-Suite, though, so I’m fairly certain the support plan
you’ve linked will not be useful for a Google Play dev account.

------
dustingetz
In 20 years, tech monopoly = government

------
taneq
Once more for the people in the back: _Do not base your company on the
goodwill of an external entity with whom you have no real communication or
recourse!_

------
nukeop
So now anyone who has ever owned a terminated account is a Typhoid Mary and as
Google refuses to provide any details about their bans and cuts all
communications with banned accounts, it's like being exiled by a commandment
from high above. People talk about possible future AI abuses but here we are
with people getting abused by an AI system right now. Being banned from ever
having a Google Play account is a death sentence for an Android developer,
especially since anyone who ever comes into contact with you risks being
exiled by association.

~~~
jshowa3
That's what happens when you build a store architecture where its the only way
to release an app. When stores were introduced offering built-in DRM, not
allowing native apps, and only providing a license to use the software, it was
only a matter of time before these things happened. Having no control or
ownership of what you put on your machine was a death sentence. Problem is,
people love stores like Steam and frequently defend it when its nothing more
than a Google App store. Despite having no ownership of their games, draconian
return policy, and games permanently locked to your account.

~~~
Lich
I own over nearly 100 games on Steam, mostly bought on sales. Despite the tons
of titles I bought, I miss the experience of actually owning a copy of the
game, along with the box and manuals that came with it. More importantly
though, I think it's scary that Valve can one day decide to totally ban a user
from their purchased game because they didn't like the behavior or actions of
an account holder (e.g. cheating in a Valve game or account getting hacked).

~~~
crankylinuxuser
Or you initiate a chargeback over an illegitimate or otherwise dispute on
charging or on bad claim of product.

Then they nuke your whole account.

------
kazinator
What do we do? Put an _.apk_ file up for download on a website you control.

~~~
JohnFen
That's viable. You can also use any of several alternative app stores. There
are lots of people like myself (although we're the minority, obviously) who
don't use Google Play at all anyway.

