
Whatever happened to the noble art of the manly weep? - elbear
https://aeon.co/essays/whatever-happened-to-the-noble-art-of-the-manly-weep
======
screye
> It’s time to open the floodgates. Time for men to give up emulating the
> stone-faced heroes of action movies and be more like the emotive heroes of
> Homer, like the weeping kings, saints and statesmen of thousands of years of
> human history.

I fully support the premise, but it clearly ignores the reality. A man has to
first be convinced that the environment around him will not reject him for
crying, before expecting him to be vulnerable in such an unfamiliar way.

Will a crying man be deemed as someone unsuitable for being the emotional
pillar in a relationship ?

Will a crying man be seen as someone who can't deal with crisis ?

Will a crying man be seen to be a child ?

No matter how much we tell someone it is alright, they won't believe it to be
true until the environment shows it to be so. People talk about toxic
masculinity as though it is a problem created only by men. But, the idea of it
pervades throughout society. Affecting children, women and men alike. Men
can't be the only ones battling it.

A comment pointed towards Khamenei crying at Soleimani's funeral as a sign
towards encouraging men to cry. However, I only see it as an example for the
contrary. Crying for men carries a weight, that implies that it must be
reserved for an occasion special enough to warrant it. Had men crying at the
death of their closest friend been customary, then Khamenei's voice cracking
at the funeral would have never been reported as a special observation.

~~~
IfOnlyYouKnew
There have been quite a few crying men that became iconic: Mandela, I seem to
remember, and also Helmuth Kohl (and, simlar: Willy Brandt on hus knees).
Didn't Obama cry at one of the many church services for victims of gun
violence?

And I don't believe these instances derive their power from stigma. None of
these people became less respected. In fact I don't remember _any_ man hurt by
crying.

The closest is probably Boehner (former Speaker of the House). It was actually
his shtick and he would cry at two or three events every week, but the worst
he got for that was some mild and sympathetic mocking by Jon Stewart.

And if you want to enlist women in your fight for the right to cry, I don't
quite know what you expect from them? It seems they _already_ care rather
little about performative manliness, as evidenced by the growing partisan
voting gap.

~~~
scarmig
It's the difference between weeping "at a distance" versus weeping out of
emotion. All the situations you mention involve a man weeping at some tragic
part of the world, which I agree is broadly accepted. Same applies to, e.g.,
crying at a sad movie.

However, it ignores the reality that the most important kind of weeping isn't
where you weep because you're recognizing something is socially coded as sad,
but where you weep because you're feeling sad. Maybe you lost a job; maybe you
feel like a failure; maybe you got your heart broken. And for all of these
there's a substantial stigma, in that to be a Real Man(tm) you are forced to
embrace your agency and act instead of feel.

A single controlled, manly tear is celebrated; messy weeping is deeply
stigmatized, and many women would consider a man who does so weak and
unsuitable for a relationship.

~~~
setr
I like to describe as when a real man cries, he does it alone, in a dark,
empty room.

------
Waterluvian
I've seen my dad cry once, and it involved the death of my mom. From his lack
of crying I learned an important lesson that I've been sharing with my kids (1
and 2): it's okay to cry.

I cry in front of them when I'm sad. And then I talk about why I feel the way
I do, and that it will be okay. My oldest is developing wonderful empathy.
"Why are you sad, daddy?" And then we talk about it. He probably doesn't
understand it a lot, but I know he's learning that it's okay to feel these
feelings.

Sadness is not a nice feeling, but it's a valid feeling. I think too often
people see sadness as a bug that needs fixing. It's okay to be sad, and then
you eventually stop being sad.

Closely related to this is another lesson I learned from my dad on not what to
do. He's Willy Loman levels of optimistic. Thousands of times I've heard him
go on and on about how great the day was, how much progress is happening at
work, how the next big breakthrough is over the next hill. But as his child
growing up, I badly needed him to occasionally say, "today didn't go well. X
rejected our offer and Y isn't working so we have to start over on that one.
But it's okay because these days happen and tomorrow might be better." To this
date I'm still struggling with the reality that life, by design, has bad days,
and that's fine.

~~~
remote_phone
My son is a crybaby. I get that emotions are valid, etc, but he cries when he
loses at video games, when he gets an answer wrong, when he doesn’t get picked
to answer a question at school, when someone gets the book he wanted before he
does.

We have tried everything and he’s old enough but won’t stop crying. I’m ready
to just start spanking him every time he cries and to tell him that it’s not
okay to just cry whenever he doesn’t get his way. It’s getting to the point
where he is far too old to be acting this way and I’m at my wits end.

~~~
minikites
Spanking has no positive benefit and is essentially child abuse. There is no
legitimate reason to strike a child.

------
NickM
It's sad to me that the social discourse on gender has become so combative. I
think many people on all sides of the debate feel like feminism is a zero-sum
movement, where the way to raise women up is to tear men down.

In practice, I feel like gender inequality can hurt both men and women in
different ways. More gender equality allows _everyone_ more freedom to choose
their own path in life and express their true selves without being forced into
a set of stereotypical molds.

~~~
rjkennedy98
Its not so much as zero-sum but essentially schizophrenic.

On one side we have a culture of extreme sexual liberation, with the media,
hookup culture, and the porn industry, and on the other side we have the yes-
means-yes, firings for touching a women's back (Garrison Keillor), special
legal proceedings for sexual assault accusers, ect.

How is anyone supposed to navigate a culture as complex as this?

~~~
ameister14
Just want to point out that this is a misuse of the word schizophrenic; if you
are going to link extreme swings to a psychological disorder, the one you're
likely looking for is bipolar. Simplifying it, schizophrenia is when you see
and hear things that aren't there.

~~~
FisDugthop
Foucault would politely disagree; he used "schizophrenic" (literally, "a mind
split into pieces") to describe the way that (post)modern society uses symbols
and signs to point at cultural features, without actually understanding how
those cultural features interact. In such a society, the signs themselves, and
they way in which they chain into each other, become the primary meanings,
replacing the cultural features entirely.

The parent reasonably points out two families of sign-chains and sketches how
they conflict by emphasizing how the signs espouse conflicting opinions on
male sexuality.

~~~
ameister14
Foucault would probably disagree for more reasons than that; specificity and
certitude in regards to psychiatric illnesses or how they are described wasn't
exactly something he jived with

------
welly
I've cried occasionally in recent years through laughter but never through
sorrow. Mid 40s now but I have few recollections of crying through sorrow
since I was a child - all brought on either by the breakup of a relationship
or the death of a grandparent.

I suspect I'd probably keep my crying to myself if I had a reason to, which
seems to go against the norm on the internet. On reddit in particular, people
can't seemingly wait to announce their tears over one thing or another. It's
like a competition as to who is the most emotional. Part of me thinks "Good on
you, I wish I was that emotional", the other part of me thinks they're crying
out for attention.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Agreed. I'm not very emotional. I've nearly cried once in my adult life and
that was at a funeral for someone close. I don't think I'm missing much but
I'm sure people will contend I don't know what I'm missing, oh well.

Reddit is a very bad place to go for a picture resembling "reality for normal
people". The format of the website is very conducive to people trying to one-
up each other with their conformance to whatever things are popular at the
time and that gets divorced from reality really quickly.

------
Zelphyr
I've been saying for awhile that we need to work against the stigma of crying.
Sure, sobbing because your idea isn't chosen at the office probably isn't
going to get you anywhere but that's not what I'm talking about. When we're
sad, we should allow ourselves _and each other_ the space to be sad and if
that means crying then we should do so.

Replace "crying" with "pooping" and see how senseless the stigma becomes. You
don't need to do it in public but only bad things happen when you try to
prevent it. It's a perfectly normal physiological process.

What makes the stigma even more odd is that we accept it when we see a strong
male character crying in a movie or on TV. On the surface it was absurd when
Tom Hanks was crying over losing "Wilson" yet we understood it, and related to
it. In his isolation-induced mental state, he had lost a loved one. There was
no shame in that. Would we think the same if our co-worker choked up when
describing how his cat had just died?

------
friedegg
I found out my mom died while I was at work, age 37, after a short illness (I
was going to see her the next week), and although I generally kept it together
that day, at one point, while talking to one of my staff on the phone, I just
completely lost it. I think I cried in a way I hadn't ever before (maybe I've
had a fortunate life). What was oddest to me was that I couldn't control it at
all, but I was still able to think and even had a conversation with them over
Slack while this was happening.

~~~
tartoran
I'm sorry for your loss. I still remember when my dad died too, I was about 21
at the time and got a phone call that my dad was taken by an ambulance. I was
at work and jumped into a cab, I arrived at the ER and they would not let me
see him directly, told me they need to talk to me and my family in a separate
room. They tried to cushion it but broke it to us eventually. That
uncontrollable sobbing in front of the hospital, some strangers were hugging
and trying to console me, feels like a natural response to personal tragedy. I
am in my 40s and rarely cry but if I could I'd do, it's such a cathartic
feeling.

------
nickthegreek
I was listening to the NYT Daily podcast yesterday and they were talking about
the Soleimani funeral and how Khamenei voice cracked and openly cried while
delivering a prayer. I thought that was pretty amazing and rare for a world
leader, especially a strong man type.

------
ergothus
I don't really cry. I don't know how to.

Don't get me wrong - I get choked up, I get teary. I'm actually rather easily
emotional - any tear-jerker movie will get to me.

But once I have the emotion, I don't know how to let it out. I WANT to. When I
look at my wife and female friends, they all occasionally have a good cry as
an emotional outlet, and while whatever prompted that is bad, the cry itself
is a good outlet. They can feel better for having done it. But me? I just feel
like all the emotions are stuck and I'm clogged up.

I'm not consciously fighting it, thinking I have to protect my manhood. While
others being around does make it worse, I can't have this kind of release in
private either. I don't know how much is subconscious and how much is the fact
that I've spent 4+ decades NOT crying and I just don't know how to.

I don't strive for the "manly weep" that the article describes - I want to be
able to all out bawl and just let this out.

~~~
iamatworknow
Almost the exact same story here. I'm in my mid 30's, and the last time I
cried was when I was a teenager, aside from also tearing up during some
movies. Definitely not like I'm fighting it, I just don't know how.

Case in point, my father passed away rather suddenly on Christmas Eve -- just
two weeks ago today. We weren't super close, but I do have fond memories of
him. I haven't cried once. When I was informed of his death by my brother, who
was tearing up as he told me, I literally just said "Damn..." and then drove
around for a few hours aimlessly thinking. It seems like I should, like I'm
SUPPOSED to cry, to the point where I feel like something's wrong with me
because I haven't. Now I'm concerned that weeks or months from now I'll end up
being triggered by something in an inopportune public place and just start
bawling. But who knows?

------
rofo1
The last two times that I've cried were both at a funeral of close family
members. That was 2 years and ~10 years ago, I believe. I don't remember any
other instances (maybe when I was a little kid, but I don't remember). When I
say 'cried', I mean.. there were tears on my face. I wasn't screaming and
crying manically etc.

Why cry, anyway? Unless someone dies or is extremely ill, everything else
seems tolerable to me.

As someone that have extensively studied history and evolutionary biology, I
know exactly how good life is for me (and for many people, really). There's
absolutely no reason to cry or feel sad about anything, especially things
beyond my control.

Right now, we are connected through an online forum from our homes. It's just
amazing! We got transportation, we can visit other countries, we have freedom
(of some sort), some of us are in great physical shape, financially free,
etc., we got running water, we got all possible foods from each corner of the
world, we got infinite entertainment, etc. etc.

I don't want to offend anyone, but when I see a person that's not satisfied
based on these things alone (sanitary, water, food, not that many active
wars), that's a person that has no idea about the history of our species. This
is life on the easiest mode ever recorded. Cherish it.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
TBH I'm super happy to live in a world where someone is crying based on things
unrelated to basic survival. I want to actively work to a world where
everyone's lowest low point of life is something I would consider just a minor
inconvenience.

------
geocrasher
Hello. I am a man. I cry.

And it's not always at the right time or the right amount. I'm a person who
buries his feelings, but they can't help but come out. I used to bury them
deeply, and didn't cope with them at all. This was seriously unhealthy and as
a result, my mental health suffered.

Then I learned how to cope some, and things got better. The more I coped with
my feelings instead of burying them, the more I cried. That's not to say I cry
all the time, but if a song hits me the right way, or even a good dance
routine on World of Dance or some other show catches my heart the right way,
I'm crying. Not just weeping, but holding back deep sobs. Those deep sobs are
an overreaction, of course.

Why do I have to fight deep sobs at something as simple as a touching dance
routine? I think it's because I have a LOT going on in my life, some of them
quite troubling. Serious health issues in my family which have altered our
life significantly, and will cause damage for years to come- for a life time
for my daughter and I. My wife is dying and doesn't have much time left. And
while I try to be brave for her, she knows how much it troubles me- despite
that I have a firm hope for the future and I know it'll all be okay in the
end- it still troubles me. For her sake I try to hold back my tears, but this
backfires. What was a suppressed weep here and a stifled weep there is
suddenly gushing forth right in the middle of a less serious discussion! It's
not the right time.

Why do these inopportune things happen? Because I've not learned to be okay
with crying. If I could manage to be okay with having many smaller sessions of
crying, at the right times, then these outbursts of crying wouldn't be there.
As it is I hold them back enough that they'll eventually come out in a more
dramatic scream sobbing fit that lasts several minutes and usually leaves me
without a voice for a week.

Weeping isn't manly. Weeping isn't for women. Weeping is for humans.

Hello. I am a human. I cry.

------
rl3
I cry less and less as I age:

Teens? All the time. Perhaps monthly or even weekly at times.

20s? Less so, but more intensely. Perhaps every six months on average.

30s? Only twice in two years, and I'm a 32-year-old male now.

Those times were basically weeping, and I'd thought I'd hit rock bottom in a
mental health/depression context. Maybe I had, but life got much, much worse
after that. The interesting thing however, is that somewhere along the line I
lost the ability to cry. I'd want to cry, but I couldn't anymore.

Haven't been able to for over a year now. It's like when you hit what you
think is the bottom, you drop through to the basement. I hesitate to say it's
an unfeeling basement—if anything it's more extreme feelings of despair—but
it's certainly one where for whatever reason, crying no longer exists.

When things were really bad recently, I'd look in a mirror and just see this
tearless dry laugh or heave of despair. Wanted to cry, but it's like the
emotional pain or stress or anxiety was too high to allow it.

My best friend and I saw Joker during the midst of all this, and then we went
home to make dinner after. It disturbed him a little when I nailed emulating
the laugh without even trying, the first time. Usually I'm the one that can't
do voices to save my life, and he's the one who can do anything. He couldn't
do the Joker laugh no matter how much he tried.

My theory is I had already experienced the aforementioned feeling in the
mirror. I unwittingly had practice. You have to be either a really good actor,
or seriously hurting to emulate that laugh correctly. It's a laugh because the
tears are dry for some reason.

That said, I'm sure despair can go far deeper still, and I really hope to
never experience that.

-

It could be that crying is like a muscle. Perhaps it's a developed emotional
mechanism that—when used appropriately—is beneficial to emotional well-being.
However, like any muscle it can atrophy if it isn't used frequently enough, or
lacks in sufficient nutrition.

Maybe crying can only happen when conditions are right. If things get too bad,
or you're too worn down, you lose the ability to do so.

Perhaps crying doesn't happen because depression in combination with stress or
anxiety are the primary reason for the despair. I'd probably cry immediately
for the death of a loved one, for example.

Whatever the case, that's my take on it. Everyone's different and likely has
their own reasons why they cry or don't cry. As the article points out,
societal factors of course play an outsized role as well.

-

Disclaimer: Wrote this simply for the exercise of it, to explore the topic.
Not a plea for help or anything, I'm fine. Joker was a flawed yet excellent
film that explored some serious mental health topics, and I dislike the notion
that it somehow had a violent or anarchic message. Quite obviously the
contrary in my opinion.

~~~
lodi
I'm 34, male. I feel like I just _feel less_ as I age, both positive and
negative. No crying, less anger, but also less giddy joy, less vivid
imagination. When I was a child or teenager I could read a book and _be_ the
character. Now I'm just reading a book.

~~~
jsonne
I felt this right up until I have a kid. I'm like a mopey teenager again.
Movies and tv regularly make me tear up etc. I feel the overwhelming rush and
excitement I used to get from travel or goal achievement all over. I think the
phenomenon that you're describing is basically we get used to the way things
are so the emotional highs and lows are sort of expected. When we're young
everything is new. It takes a big change and breaking your pattern to get out
of that.

~~~
cdolan
I agree with this. Kids spark a new sense of purpose and being.

A close friend and family member lost a 6 month old baby late last year
through no fault of their own. Little guy slept so deep he stopped breathing.

Being so close to such a truly gut wrenching loss gives me a new perspective
everyday.

The last time I had something even remotely like that was when a family member
was scheduled to be in the Twin Towers, on the top floor, the morning of
9/11/2001\. Through a total fluke, this person didn’t go to work that day.
Odd, because he was the focus of this meeting and really should have been
there - rather, he decided to hang out with his kids as he had been traveling
too much. He’s living on borrowed time and admits that every September.

All this to say - the worst part of modern technology and society is the
ability to escape from reality, in my opinion.

You, your kids, and the rest of your loved ones will be dead one day. Probably
when you dont expect it.

Putting the phone down and spending valuable time with them is the best
decision you can make at any point in your day.

~~~
jsonne
I completely agree. As silly as it sounds because it ended up being a false
alarm I was in Hawaii during the ballistic missile scare. That sort of fear
and then coming out on the other side, followed by having a kid 2 years later,
has given me a totally different and much better perspective on life. I try
and remember every day what really matters and it usually isn't what many of
us usually give our time to.

------
domador
There's a phrase that macho men should start telling each other ASAP:

"Cry like a man!"

(This would mean to cry openly, deeply, and bravely, since a great many
sorrows require good grieving and crying is a healthy outlet for grief. Crying
is much less damaging to others and to oneself than other regrettably-common
male outlets for grief, such as getting drunk and/or domestic violence.)

I hope one day crying by men becomes more acceptable to society. Life is often
painful. Grieving is often necessary.

------
throw_20200107
Strange timing of this article..
[https://apnews.com/14792cc1d7f73ffec8f8c425b73b44fb](https://apnews.com/14792cc1d7f73ffec8f8c425b73b44fb)

------
lordleft
One the pillars of western masculinity, the Iliad, is replete with the tears
of heroes. Men -- sometimes quite violent and aggressive men -- have
historically felt quite free to use tears to express their anxiety and grief.

"Agamemnon shed tears as it were a dark-running stream or cataract on the side
of some sheer cliff."

[https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/6812.iii-4-the-l...](https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/6812.iii-4-the-
language-of-tears)

------
mjd
I can call spirits from the manly weep.

------
sebastianconcpt
This is no place to discuss masculinity.

------
theFeller00
I haven't cried in a decade. Since I attended the last family funeral. Before
that, it was probably another decade. What are feelings.

~~~
sfgweilr4f
The decode of sad feelings into binary is
10101011111101000101010101000000001011111112

~~~
sfgweilr4f
which is a shame since 2 definitely makes most logic sad.

------
matwood
I've never seen a problem with crying, although I don't cry easily. Stub my
toe? No reason to cry. I had to suddenly euthanize one of my dogs on new years
eve and I cried like a baby.

One thing I have noticed though is that I can cry about a situation and then
I'm good to go. My wife on the other hand will cry off and on for days. Maybe
the no crying thing came out of the typical need to get things done after
whatever crying situation occurred?

------
Clubber
Life is suffering. We cry because someone convinced us it's not. Fairy tales
are just that. Read deep into history for perspective.

We're at the 100th anniversary of the Spanish Flu that happened right after
WWI. If we were living 100 years ago, we still have Prohibition, mass bank
failures, the Great Depression and WWII to look forward to before mid-century.

Be thankful you aren't in a trench.

~~~
ptah
most of those problems were self-inflicted

~~~
Clubber
>most of those problems were self-inflicted

Sure, it's the fault of the 18 year old draftee getting shelled in a trench
for 4 straight days. It's the fault of the farmer who lost his life savings
because a bank shut down. It's the fault of the young factory worker that
Hitler decided to invade Poland. Self inflicted by whom exactly? Maybe you
should reevaluate that statement.

