
Ask HN: Developers' jobs in Europe. Best cover-letter, cv practices. - drinchev
Dear European HNers,<p>I was wondering is there any special requirements ( like stronger cover-letter OR no need for good cover-letter, 4+ pages CV vs. &lt;4 pages CV, etc. ) to apply for web-developer jobs in Europe ( specifically in Berlin and other tech-hubs in Europe ), since I know that there could be a bit difference than what it is in the US.<p>I&#x27;ve recently read blog posts about &quot;How to find a job in IT&quot; but they are all specific for SF, NY and nothing about European Startups &#x2F; Tech companies.<p>I recently applied with a cover letter, which inclues the company&#x27;s logo created with CSS3, HTML by me @ codepen ( It looks like a trend now ), but I don&#x27;t know if the HR team in Europe will think that this is unserious and will skip my application.<p>Can anyone suggest some best practices. Thanks!
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cantlin
In London:

1\. Include a one to two paragraph cover letter that you wrote specifically
for the opening you're applying for. Make the quality of English very high.
Use simple letter-style formatting, address in the top right, company logo in
the top left if you have a freelance brand that you're using.

2\. Include a two page CV. Simple formatting please (I am going to print it
and write on it). Mine has worked well for me (though in retrospect is too
wordy!), [http://hackerb.io/cantlin.pdf](http://hackerb.io/cantlin.pdf), you
can get one from [http://hackerb.io](http://hackerb.io).

3\. Make both documents PDFs. Anything else is a pain for me.

4\. Include links to your web presence, if you want. They can be in the cover
letter, CV or email. You'll be Googled anyway so it's best to be proactive,
especially if you have stuff on Github, SO, etc.

5\. Companies vary, but be mindful of potentially needing to get your
application through an HR department who at best will be searching for
keywords from the job post.

6\. Startups are a different game. Your CSS3 logo is a good stab (though make
sure you back it up with meat). If I were looking for a startup role today I
would be focused on making connections through events, social media and the
open source projects they use.

~~~
TamDenholm
Might be worth noting if you're going through a recruiter they specifically
want an MS word doc so they can remove your contact details and put their logo
on your CV. The more shady ones will even add keywords and stuff to your CV.

~~~
drinchev
So what's the point in doing this, when employers can just google my name and
make direct contact?

~~~
toble
They strip out the details that can personally identify you. When the employer
gets your CV, you are merely a reference number.

Think about it the other way. Search for a job and look at ads from
recruiters, if you're lucky you will see a vague description of the industry.

~~~
Leander_B
Many recruiters are too lazy to change the job description of roles they
recruit for. In case you find a role you are interested in that is with a
recruiter, take out 7-8 words of the job responsibilities and do an exact
search in Google. Moderate success rate.

------
automatik
I am a developer and IT manager/director in Berlin.

I will say this: in most small to medium IT companies (in Berlin) a cover
letter is not needed or even wanted in most cases -- speak with your work and
your CV. The cover letter is just excess "stuff" that we have to read on top
of everything else. Larger corporations may appreciate this more.

A CV should be kept VERY short and to the point (i.e. 1-2 pages). A "creative"
CV is fine if you are applying for a creative position, but outside of that
keep it simple and avoid being confusing. Note that Germany has its own CV
format which often includes your picture, marital status, and so forth.
Adhering to this is a plus in most cases!

Example projects you participated in (such as a URL to a site you developed)
or code samples (i.e. GitHub) are an enormous plus that will put you at the
front of the line (if it is good code, naturally).

If you are applying from outside the EU, it is important to stand out because
of the extra cost and process (which is relatively quick and painless in
Germany compared to some other countries, such as England) for your visa and
residency. There is, however, a large shortage of talented IT professionals
here and most companies regularly seek out candidates from outside Germany and
even outside the EU.

In Berlin, you can likely get away with not speaking German, though it is a
"plus." In many parts of Germany (i.e. Munich), the majority of positions will
require/assume you speak German plus some level of English proficiency.

~~~
drinchev
Thanks. That's the most relevant (geo-oriented) answer to me. I guess I have
to reduce the CV size.

------
contingencies
European like continental or European like UK? There's a big difference. In my
~2009 experience rocking up similarly with zero local experience (as an
Aussie), offers I gathered wound up at x _EUR_ on the continent vs. 2x _GBP_
in London.

However, living in London is expensive and basically sux after summer. If I
were doing it again I would go to a city or town on or near the Mediterranean.
For my weak and nerdy constitution, if it's not far southern Europe, it's too
cold in the winter.

I did alright and had a few pages, I wouldn't worry too much about format.
Remember being from the US you are going to tend to be subconsciously
sterotyped as culturally ignorant, loud and egocentric so maybe try to
consciously tone it down a bit.

PS. You perhaps should have mentioned up there you are in Berlin already.

~~~
drinchev
Yep, pretty much I'm aware of the salary. I'm not from US :) I just moved here
and I'm trying to exit from the freelancing business that I'm doing since I
can remember ( I miss team work ;) )

------
Gmo
Like what you can see through all the comments, there is no "European way of
applying", even though there is officially a "European type CV", but don't
know much about it.

I just went through the process recently (in France), and what I know is true
for sure in mainland Europe is :

* No more than 2 pages. Make it 1 if you can (I worked quite hard to make fit everything I wanted into 1 page, but if you really had a lot of projects showing a wide range of skills, it can be hard). If you have less than 5 years of XP, I'd say only 1 page.

* Picture : This depends per country. In Germany, it's practically mandatory (except maybe in some more "international" startups, don't know about that). In France, it is not, but the latest trend is to put one. Reading elsewhere in this thread, in the UK, it seems you should not put one.

* Cover letter : in France it is highly appreciated (especially if there is an HR person/department) and you should put good time into it and definitely tailor it to the company you are applying to (you can still have pattern though, that helps to write them much faster).

* Github profile can help but that really depends on which type of company you're applying to I think.

* Degrees : That really depends. I guess (hope) in the startup world it is less important, but in "normal company" in France and Germany, they value it a lot (one would say too much) but of course, you can't change that. You can try to counterbalance it in your cover letter though.

Hope this helps.

~~~
desas
I'm curious, what possible use does a picture have in the hiring process?
Doesn't it open up companies to accusations of discrimination?

~~~
Gmo
I guess it does not otherwise they would not ask it :)

I guess it's just cultural. I'm not German so I can't answer more than that.

As for France (I'm French but I was not working in France for the past 6
years), I have the impression it's just a trend that comes and goes.

------
lostnet
Xing is still very popular among German speakers, though linked in has been
making quick progress.

A professional looking portrait photo is essential here in Switzerland, and
age based discrimination is legal? and the norm, so not disclosing your age
may waste everyone's time.

Here they also send around a cover letter and a bunch of documents from past
employers, but they don't seem to expect that from foreigners.

------
mtrimpe
What kind of company are you aiming for? Enterprise or startup? They're worlds
apart.

If you're looking for a solid enterprise CV, I've had pretty good results with
mine at [http://michiel.trimpe.nl](http://michiel.trimpe.nl) (the picture and
recommendations section are optional.) For big companies LinkedIn is also key
and recommendations there are very valuable.

For blanket applications (e.g. submit on website) cover letters are a must and
you must show that you have read about the business and explain in a few
sentences why you feel your profile would fit well with the (goals of the)
employer. As for format, the body of your introductory email message is often
considered synonymous with your cover letter.

(P.S. This is based on the Amsterdam market. Europe is big and every country
is different so advice from a German would be better still if you were looking
for a job in Berlin)

~~~
hcho
Put a picture on your CV in the UK and it directly goes into the bin. No one
wants to be liable for discrimination.

~~~
EvaK_de
DON'T put a picture on your CV in GERMANY and it directly goes into the bin.
:)

~~~
yulaow
For what a software company would need a picture in a cv of a software
engineer candidate?

~~~
EvaK_de
In Germany companies just like it that way. I don't know why.

------
Jabbles
A 4 page CV would just be thrown away in the UK. 1 page, unless you have 20
years of experience - then maybe 2.

A cover letter shouldn't have their logo on it.

~~~
drinchev
That logo was a link to codepen, just a demo that I'm interested in the
company. It was definitely not in my cover letter as attached image or smth.

------
EvaK_de
Cover letters are not all that important here in Germany.

Your CV matters a lot more, according to my experience, but it should be no
longer than 1-2 pages.

Projects are what matters, so show them the code (e.g. with a GitHub profile).

~~~
drinchev
10x That's what I'm doing right now. Although there are some projects than I
can't show them ( perhaps, in person I could, since they are copyrighted ) I
have a good ~10 years experience and some open source projects I have
participated.

~~~
EvaK_de
Open source experience is great, when applying for a job at a startup! I think
you will have good chances.

------
nicholassmith
Basic rule of keeping your C.V. short and sweet, because if every candidate is
a 2-3 page C.V. and 25 candidates apply the person responsible for reading
them is going to be in for a long, annoying day.

Cover letters are fine, don't worry about it too much though as they're
normally just scanned over. If you're going for frontend have some work in a
portfolio online they can view. Backend consider having some open source work
on GitHub, even if it's just a few snippets of useful code you use every now
and again.

------
praguebaker
What about Prague ? Tech scene has evolved rapidly in past few years. (Skype,
AVG, Avast, Red Hat, Geewa, Socialbakers, Good Data, Zoom International and
many others...) + Startupyards,Node5 incubator + The Hub.

Check this article : [http://www.janrezab.com/prague-beats-berlin-with-its-
tech-sc...](http://www.janrezab.com/prague-beats-berlin-with-its-tech-scene-
could-challenge-london-in-the-future/)

------
janjongboom
As someone doing quite some interviews for a Norwegian company a cover letter
should just be a couple of lines describing some practicalities, like why
you'd want to join my team over any other team in the company and from which
office you'd like to work. Other than that I'll mainly look at online
presence, GH, SO, etc. CV is not that interesting because I probably don't
know the companies you worked before anyway.

------
seporaitis
Here's what worked for me:

1\. I always prepared (exactly) 2 page CV.

2\. One thing, that paid off (I think) I always prepared CV for specific Job
offer. Takes time, but exposes the best of you in paper for the position you
are applying for.

3\. I have a belief that "If text looks good on paper - it will look good on
screen", not necessarily otherwise. Thus I print my CV, read it loudly, mark
and correct bits and pieces with pencil, edit the electronic form, rinse &
repeat until I don't have anything to edit.

4\. I wrote cover letter twice in my life - basically it was among the lines
of: "I would love to work at your company, because you are cool at something I
am interested in working on and I think I have the skills you need (references
to CV, showing my experience in what they needed)."

So far so good, through the years I applied to companies in Lithuania,
Denmark, Sweden and UK (London) - I got offers from all of them. I applied for
Software Engineer position in PHP or Python companies.

------
creature
I'm a web developer in London, who's moderately involved in hiring. Most
advice you'll get is subjective, but here's my two pence.

A 2 page CV is the norm, though you won't get dinged for a page either way -
especially if the content is good. A cover letter can help, especially if it's
focused on the company - why you want to work for them, what skills you can
bring & why they're relevant, etc. It's also a chance to show off any side
projects or Github accounts; if it was a front-end job you applied for, the
logo in CSS3 sounds ideal. Don't worry too much about formality of language;
polite but friendly is fine. Aim for 2-3 paragraphs. I wouldn't include a
photo; that's a little weird in the UK job market, though it's generally
understood to mean "Oh, the candidate's from another country."

------
edem
I think that you should read this:

[http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ResumeRead.html](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ResumeRead.html)

I have rewritten my CV according to this and it is working out fine!

------
bergie
In my experience (living in Berlin but not looking for a job), you mainly need
to have a strong GitHub profile, and need to show up in some relevant meetups
and talk with people. There will be offers.

~~~
zerr
I guess that promotes no-value projects with the purpose of only to be
mentioned in CV, thus polluting the open source world...

I mean, for various reasons, quite a lot of experienced engineers have nothing
to show on github or bitbucket, and _really_ contribute to the open source
world.

~~~
bergie
GitHub shows the projects you contribute to, not only the repositories you
own.

I would also like to take exception to _polluting the open source world_.
Having more code out there is a good thing. In any case there are already
multiple libraries and widgets available for whatever purpose. Maybe some of
these will come up with something new?

------
Leander_B
European developer here having worked across 3 countries in Europe and also
involved in hiring/recruiting.Here's my advice:

Sending your application If (bigger) startup has an internal recruitment/HR
who will review you CV first. As sad as it may sound, make sure their
'keywords' match yours in the CV. Except for the internal recruiters with a
technical background (close to none), they will just go through the list of
keywords needed for the role. It's more or less a bulletproof approach to pass
the first filter which is essential if you even want to be considered. It's a
pity that persons who have almost zero knowledge about the technologies we use
have so much impact and power on deciding whether or not you'll be good based
on their criteria (again; keywords).

Most internal recruiters don't care about a cover letter at all, with a big
part of them not even reading it. Therefore, keep it very short and rather
invest time in a good CV.

You may need to adapt your CV specific to each role specifically (focussing on
the role requirements), so be ready to have a CV that can easily be adapted to
a specific role.

CV 2 pages is ideal (especially if you've held >2 roles), first block is your
personal information, followed by your work experience (latest position
first). Make some bullet points of what your tasks where at each role. Bullet
points are always a win in a CV, always have readability in mind, no HR/Hiring
Manager wants to get a long wall of text CV after having gone through 20
previous one's.

After that, you can always put your Github or SO accounts (more likely if
startup), but I would rather talk about this with the Hiring Manager during
the phone interview, and if they are curious ask them if you can send your
account via email, this also gives you a good opportunity to add some extra
details about you which can make you stand out better and get you 'remembered'
longer and more positively if you are in their inbox. You would be surprised
how many (older) technical managers still don't know SO or Github.

Then comes your education, just very short, only mention colleges/uni if so.

No profile picture

Always print your CV and look at it skeptically and ask yourself "Would I like
getting a CV like this?"

My experience with places I've worked London Quite hard to even get a
response, I think companies in London have an easy time hiring with many good
candidates. Also no relocation packages or anything like that.

Holland Many tech jobs available and good chances to get hired when not
native. Dutch people are quite keen on international employees.

Spain Good supply/demand ratio in favor of demand. From what I've seen tech
companies in Spain have hard time hiring quality employees. Also pretty
international (Barcelona, Madrid, Malaga).

Other I understand the question is more about the first phase of applying, but
when you secure an interview at a company, learn as much as you can about
them, you might be asked for it.

Basic flow of an interview in Europe is: Company introduces itself -> you
introduce yourself -> Q&A specific for the role -> question round where you
are free to ask questions. When they ask you to ask questions, do so! Company
owners/Hiring Managers/HR love to talk about their company and it's a good way
to find out about the culture, and it makes you interested in the company
which is an advantage. Startups usually don't give you any tests or tasks
during the interview, they usually stick to asking technical questions. Last
but not least, if you are very interested in working at a company and have a
interview at their office, make a short presentation. Especially for technical
roles this is highly appreciated. Put some effort in this (5-15hours) and use
whatever you can or is related to your role. The presentation should match the
"you introduce yourself " part of the interview and go a bit deeper into your
knowledge. Present it with confidence. When they like it, you will see the
interview will get a lot more relaxed and if you've given a good insight in
your knowledge/projects you've worked on a lot of the technical questions will
already be answered or skipped.

The presentation part was twice successful for the 2 roles I ever applied for.
I've also advised it to 3 friends of which 2 got hired, of which both the
Hiring Manager said they were impressed by the presentation.

~~~
lrem
By presentation do you mean actual slides, or simply having a speech ready?

~~~
Leander_B
Presentation as in 'going there with your laptop'. Keynote is fine but if
you're good with HTML/CSS and some UI you can make a more impressive and
interactive presentation.

