
Google to close engineering office in Russia - azov
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/12/us-russia-internet-google-idUSKBN0JQ03E20141212
======
jkaljundi
Acronis, one of best known Russian tech companies, is slowly moving to
Estonia: [http://www.investinestonia.com/en/about-
estonia/news/article...](http://www.investinestonia.com/en/about-
estonia/news/article/905-big-name-in-the-it-world-could-create-500-new-jobs-
in-estonia)

There are also quite a few who are moving from Russia to Ukraine.

Also remembered this: [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-28/luxoft-to-
move-500-...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-28/luxoft-to-
move-500-programmers-from-ukraine-russia-amid-risks.html)

~~~
drzaiusapelord
I can't imagine doing business with a Russian owned company at this point. An
autocratic regime has never been good for internet or software freedoms.

I'm very glad I chose Sophos over Kaspersky for our shop.

~~~
mc32
Kaspersky is interesting. I like their security labs but I am always aware
their founder was FSB (KGB-trained) and has good relations with senior
personnel (nomenklatura) there, so, while I don't think it's automatic that
Kaspersky would do the Russ gov 'favors' it's not out of the question either
however Wired has reported as such.

~~~
notjackma
The founder of Huawei was in the PLA, and this is often used to bash the
company.

Why is it ok to serve country A, B, C and then go into business... but if you
serve country X,Y,Z you're suddenly untrustworthy?

What next? Make business decisions based upon the sexual preferences of the
CEO?

~~~
yuncun
McDonald’s CEO, James Skinner, is interesting. I like their chicken mcNuggets,
but I am always aware that their CEO is US-Navy trained, and maintains a good
relation with armed forces.

Seriously though, everybody was China is PLA - it doesn't mean anything. Back
in the day, PLA is one of the few ways to get an education and not be a
farmer.

~~~
merlincorey
On a semi-serious note, McDonald's is positioned at major intersections in
nearly every city and town in the United States.

If you wanted to go full-militarized police state, locking down all the major
intersections seems like something you'd want to do.

~~~
pdkl95
A friend of mine once heard a talk by one of the CxOs of McDonald's (was a
while ago, and I can't remember which). He asked the question, "What business
am I in?"

Obviously, he rejected the naive answer of "selling food". Smarter answers
were "licensing franchises" or "marketing/branding", but he rejected those
answers as well.

What business was he in? _Land_

------
robk
Word is that most employees are being offered full relocation (generally to
Zurich) which I have to think will be well received.

This goes for both Moscow and St Petersburg.

~~~
riffraff
> which I have to think will be well received.

sorry I can't read the english here, do you expect it to be well received
(why? seems like it would be a though choice for many people even with a
relocation package) or are you expressing hope it will be?

~~~
tonfa
At least in term of compensation, Zurich is hard to beat.

~~~
at-fates-hands
You can also throw in:

\- One of the best health care systems in the world

\- Incredible educational system

\- Technology and innovation

\- Compact, well run government

\- Some of the lowest crime rates in the world

\- Ski much? Some of the best ski resorts in the world are in the Swiss Alps.
If you don't, then you still have some breath taking scenery to look at.

Not sure you could find a better place to live than Switzerland. For the
Google employees in Russia, this must be a dream come true.

Switzerland by all accounts, is the exact _opposite_ of Russia.

~~~
_random_
Better check how long/difficult is the settlement/citizenship process. Is it
even achievable? There are fairer places to go, it should be a strategic
decision not an opportunistic one.

~~~
at-fates-hands
I've done some checking and if you're going to settle there on a perm basis, I
think it would be worth it.

[http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/becoming-a-
citizen/29288376](http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/becoming-a-citizen/29288376)

 _Foreigners with no direct blood ties to Switzerland through either birth or
marriage must live in the country for at least 10 years (reduced from 12 years
by a new law passed in June 2014) before they can apply for citizenship.
(Years spent in the country between age ten and 20 count double). The person
must be well integrated, familiar with customs and traditions, law abiding,
and pose no threat to internal or external security. The Federal Migration
Office will then “green light” an applicant’s request to begin the
naturalisation process but that does not mean citizenship is certain. Rather,
cantons and municipalities have their own requirements that must be met. One
canton, for example, might require applicants to live for two years in the
region while another might require a decade. For more on the process, please
visit the Federal Migration Office._

The other interesting thing is being born in the country doesn't mean you're
granted citizenship.

~~~
riffraff
> The other interesting thing is being born in the country doesn't mean you're
> granted citizenship.

That is quite common everywhere except the americas
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli)

------
danmaz74
Putin is increasingly cracking down on any possibility of dissent and threat
to his power, whatever the consequences to the Russian economy, and this of
course scares foreign companies who work there - even if, with the recent fall
of the ruble, Russian talent is even more affordable now.

I'm afraid (I have friends in Russia) that we're going to see more of this.

~~~
osipov
That's a very myopic view and here's why -- virtually all governments in the
world are becoming increasingly authoritarian because of the global economic
crisis and the civilian unrest that it provokes. For example, replace Putin in
your sentence and you'll get "United States is increasingly cracking down on
any possibility of dissent and threat to it power". You can support that
statement with facts about police in Ferguson, US conflicts with China in Asia
Pacific, and of course US crackdown on dissidents like Assange and Snowden.
You can also try that exercise by replacing Putin with "Greek government".

Demonizing Putin is what your government wants you to do to avoid seeing the
bigger picture. The real question is WHY is Putin cracking down on threat to
his power?

~~~
bad_user
I'm a Romanian, a country that's pretty close to Russia and I am one that
suffers for what the Ukrainians are going through with Russia, because I can
see how the same thing could happen in Basarabia (Moldova) and there are
already signs of that. Russia historically has been occupying territories,
getting rid of any political dissent by effectively killing or deporting
people, while crushing their national identity. I hate Russia for what they
did after the secret pact from Yalta, for the soviet induced hunger that
happened after that and for the years of communism we endured.

It's been only 24 years since we escaped their control and apparently we've
been lucky, but now Putin is destroying any chance of having a peaceful
neighborhood. War is effectively at our borders and Putin is to be blamed.

So spare me rhetoric about every government or country being the same. No,
they are not equal. And I hope the Putin administration will receive what it
deserves.

~~~
vadman
Your country was of enormous help to Hitler while attacking the USSR, and the
retribution you had to "endure", given everything you did, was astonishingly
mild. So spare me your complaints.

~~~
nnq
> given everything you did

Man, it's 2014, the people that did anything in WW2 on both sides are long
dead.

And in the context of that time, "the Allies" included Stalin's Russia (read
some history, this tyrant killed more of his own people than there were
victims of Hitler's holocaust!), so _choosing to support Hitler 's Germany
against an alliance that included Russia was not necessarily a bad idea at
that that time, even morally and ethically speaking._

And concerning post-war "retribution" as a way to handle international
relationships after a war: basically the only reason Hitler himself came to
power in Germany was because this country had to endure an extremely harsh
"retribution" post WW1 so maybe the people that made this harsh post WW1 deal
really deserved the killings and destruction of WW2! Post WW2 western European
countries all benefited from something called the Marshall Plan from the US
and of decades of productive cooperation in the EU, regardless of who did what
in WW2, whereas the "Eastern Block" countries all got to endure "retribution"
and being part of the unhealthy forced economy of the USSR.

International politics is something that should be taken separately from
concepts such as "fairness" and "correctitude" and "punishing someone for
one's bad deeds". You don't punish a whole people for the consequences of what
a leader decided, even if they followed that leader. You try to rebuild
countries and economies, regardless of what seems "fair" or not, and you try
to accelerate economical growth, even if this even means letting 1 in 10 war
criminals get away. You optimize social and economical systems for performance
so that they can provide the best average "quality of live", even if this
means swallowing some shady politics once in a while and occasionally
"forgetting" some historical truths when remembering them is not "productive".

Thankfully the US, UK and modern Germany get these basic principles right, and
I really hope they will have as much of an influence as possible on
international politics, in the detriment of Russia and China who, despite the
immense economic growth of the last, haven't really gotten to the level where
they really understand what "healthy modern democracy" is all about and know
how to play "the game" and also make the people happy.

~~~
guard-of-terra
"You try to rebuild countries and economies, regardless of what seems "fair"
or not"

The problem here: after the cold war, which Russia lost, nobody cared to
rebuild its economy; instead everything was done to siphon people and
resources away and to destroy industry. Obviously US really did not want to
see Russia on the map anymore and so they did that.

Guess what - 20 years pass, Russia is angry like a non-mortally wounded wild
animal.

I'm not a fan of mr. Putin but he's very cautious still. With someone less
cautious it WILL look like pre-WW2.

And of course it will be a disaster for everyone involved.

~~~
bad_user
First of all, the cold war wasn't a real war, but a competition between the US
and Russia. Russia's loss was that they overspent resources they couldn't
afford to spend. Russia is also really big and has all the resources it needs
to recover from anything. In such a scenario I don't understand why would
anybody assume that, if it had been given international help, they would be
any different than what they are today.

Second of all, if they lost the cold war, I don't get why they'd want another
one. Putin is only cautious because he knows that in such a scenario he will
lose. And Putin's nationalistic behavior only happened because Russia was on
the brink of another economic recession.

~~~
guard-of-terra
"Russia is also really big and has all the resources it needs to recover from
anything"

Sure, but industries will be destroyed and people die, starve and be forcibly
relocated. That's what happened to ex-USSR a lot because the rest of world did
not see any reason to rebuild a country that in fact yielded to them.

You are free to "don't understand", but the damage I mentioned was done. Don't
then be surprised when people you considered harmless want to nuke you for all
the good. All the good that, strictly speaking, you did not _have_ to do.

"Second of all, if they lost the cold war, I don't get why they'd want another
one"

If Germans lost one world war, why would they want another one?

------
jmnicolas
" _Google Inc has plans to shut down its engineering office in Russia amid a
crackdown on internet freedoms and a law regarding data-handling practices_ "

Should they close their offices in USA then ? (yes I'm being sarcastic here)

~~~
ars
People are so used to their freedom, that they (rightly) get upset over even
small losses of it.

But it makes them forget what real loss of freedom is, and think that what
they lost is somehow comparable. They just don't realize how bad it can really
get.

------
chkuendig
Might be a coincidence, but they also just announced plans to rent 50'000
square meters of office space in Zurich
[http://www.handelszeitung.ch/unternehmen/google-
investiert-d...](http://www.handelszeitung.ch/unternehmen/google-investiert-
den-standort-schweiz-711965)

~~~
raverbashing
I wonder why is Zurich a big part of Google's strategy as opposed to other
places in Europe

~~~
tribaal
Because it's been on position 1 of best standard of living in the world pretty
consistently, and Switzerland is geographically central, well interconnected,
business-friendly, and not part of the EU?

Just a guess :)

EDIT: It seems Vienna is on top since 2010, my bad. But position 2 is not so
bad, and the other points still stand :)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercer_Quality_of_Living_Surve...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercer_Quality_of_Living_Survey)

~~~
raverbashing
It's also extremely expensive ;)

But yeah, I know the city, and I agree with most of it.

Also, yeah, not part of the EU (but in practice it's more of a "pick what you
want" thing with the EU

~~~
tribaal
Sure it's expensive, but if you live there your salary is indexed to that cost
(especially if you work for google), so it's not like it's a problem in
practice.

Of course, if you're just visiting... ouch :)

~~~
evgen
Of if, like Google, you are the one paying those salaries indexed to cost of
living. Then your employees become rather expensive...

~~~
tribaal
Well, it seems like Google salaries are very capable of sustaining a familly
in Zurich: [http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-
Salaries-E9079.htm](http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Salaries-E9079.htm)

And that's US salaries (the website only offers a free preview.. yada yada).

I think Google generally thinks the cost of a talented enigineer is justified,
and switching locations will of course represent a cost, but probably not such
a big one in the great scheme of things.

~~~
saalweachter
It's quite possible there will be a _relative_ loss of status. You might go
from being -- say -- in the top decile or oven top few percentiles of
income/wealth in Russia, to being in a middle decile in Zurich, even if you
are quite comfortable or your absolute income or disposable income ends up
being larger.

------
ThinkBeat
it is worrying what is happening in Russia but much less so than what is going
in the USA.

Google, Facbook etc tightly integrated with the nations intelligence agencies,
mining the data found there to make secret lists that could result in
assassinations, indefinite detention and torture.

Russias actions are for the most part overt, and rightly criticized, what the
US does, it does so covertly.

If anyone speaks about the actions that the Us takes in secret they are hunted
to the end of the world, and must seek refuge in Russia.

We hear a lot about Russian dissidents leaving Russia because they have their
freedom limited. Snowden and Julian Assange have had their freedom limited to
much more so than any of the Putin dissidents. (With the exception of the
possibility that a couple of them have been assassinated)

Remember that the air plane carrying the President of Bolivia was forced to
land and be searched by American allies under the suspicion that Snowden might
be on-board. Can you imagine AirForce One being forced to land, and be
searched by Russia or China? Becaus they suspected it might be carrying a
dissident? I dont think so.

~~~
minimax
_We hear a lot about Russian dissidents leaving Russia because they have their
freedom limited. Snowden and Julian Assange have had their freedom limited to
much more so than any of the Putin dissidents. (With the exception of the
possibility that a couple of them have been assassinated)_

Assange has a TV show on Russian state television, and Snowden is a guy who
fled to Russia with literally thousands of stolen NSA documents and now does
TV propaganda with Vladimir Putin. Those are not dissidents. Those are Russian
agents, whether they realize it or not.

~~~
jazzyk
You are using the exact "reasoning"/propaganda that communist regimes used in
Eastern Europe in the past. EVERY dissident who fled to a Western country was
automatically labeled a spy.

~~~
minimax
If you were an Eastern European person who made it into West Berlin with
thousands of secret Soviet intelligence documents in the 1960s, then you
probably were a spy.

~~~
jazzyk
Some were, some were not (I grew up there). Also, while some spies are money-
motivated, most spies from Eastern Europe were simply fed-up with the system.

We will never know for sure, but did you watch "Citizen4"? A closer look at
Snowden - IMO, it's highly unlikely that he was a spy. It is clear (to me, at
least) that he is highly principled, not money-driven. He'd have to be an
extremely good actor.

~~~
minimax
Snowden's principles are exactly what make him such a great Russian agent.
They don't have to sell him on the ideology since he already has it. It's like
Aikido. All they have to do is take the momentum of his enormous ego and sense
of self righteousness, and just sort of redirect it a little bit. Now all of a
sudden Snowden finds himself sitting in Moscow being debriefed by Russian
intelligence. It's brilliant on the part of the Russians and terrible for
NATO.

------
aleksi
… and just 2 months ago Microsoft closed Qik/Skype development office in
Moscow, relocating willing developers to Czech Republic.

------
rurban
Oh my, goodbye sanitizers? There's still work on the kernel sanitizer and a
few other things to be done. Disturbing.

~~~
skj
I don't believe anyone is getting fired, though it's true that a mandatory
relocation will mean a lot of people choose to leave the company.

~~~
rurban
I assumed that they will not fire their best engineers. But will their
families relocate to Europe, having to speak weird languages and spend a lot
of money? Zurich is super expensive.

~~~
skj
Right, I expect many will choose a severance package instead.

------
bgarbiak
Knowing the government's of Russia ways of controlling the media and
opposition, I understand and agree with those scared for personal freedoms. On
the other hand, I would feel way better if similar law would be imposed in EU,
so my data would stay within its borders and be protected by EU laws.

~~~
cromwellian
Actually, the NSA has a greater power to spy on data on foreign soil than on
domestic soil. Ironically, although the 'legal' channels for subpoenaing data
with warrants exposes data in the US to government demands, there's at least
in theory, some kind of oversight by the courts (although we know they rubber
stamp everything).

I think the idea that data held within your home country is 'safer' may be a
false sense of security.

~~~
izacus
There's that small difference of actually being able to influence our own
governments and changing what they give to US.

Which is still a huge difference than being exposed to mercy of an overseas
government which gives us about the same consideration as it does to cattle
and approves of torture.

~~~
mitochondrion
It's not even so much being able to influence our government versus one to
which we are foreign non-residents, it's that at least the people over at the
NSA, however much they may abuse their power, have some small consideration
for me as a fellow citizen versus "just some German/Chinese/South African
guy".

------
NARKOZ
It’s time to recognize the Internet as a basic human right. That means
guaranteeing affordable access for all, ensuring Internet packets are
delivered without commercial or political discrimination, and protecting the
privacy and freedom of Web users regardless of where they live.

[http://time.com/3631377/internet-cia-putin-berners-
lee/](http://time.com/3631377/internet-cia-putin-berners-lee/)

------
tlear
Perhaps their executives do not want to have an 'accident' landing
Sheremetievo?

They are smart to get out now, probably should have been done earlier

------
p_kolya
How does engineering office relate to censorship?

~~~
wslh
If they have local presence they can be pressured in any way in a Russian
jurisdiction.

~~~
icebraining
But if "the internet search engine company might retain some employees to
assist in sales, business partnerships, user support, marketing and
communications", won't they still have a local presence?

~~~
wslh
It careful says "might" and "assist". In the best case this means minimal
presence in Russia that can be unplugged immediately. We don't know if this
will happen using the Google company or transferring employees to a another
entity and formally outsourcing it.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The presence could be purely vendors or a Russian company acting as a
representing. More like a consulate, like they still have in China.

------
ivankolev
I really hope Jetbrains, a Russian company, do not secretly work with the
government to plant backdoors in all its IDE offerings :). It's fascinating
but uneasy feeling how some of the best tools for software development come
from Russia

------
dschiptsov
What else "Sharikovs and Shvonders" would expect?

------
eldargab
Stupid propaganda...

~~~
pavlov
What exactly do you consider propaganda? You don't believe that Google is
shutting down their Russian office?

~~~
eldargab
Reasoning. Internet became regulated in Russia, and what? How does this relate
to hacking on V8 engine, for example? (They have such teem in Saint
Petersburg)

This article appeared just to support sentiment and noise around how bad/evil
Russia is doing. No matter of truth or plausibility, all kind of noise just
works.

~~~
anovikov
But it is indeed is bad and going worse. Free people of the world, including
Russians, must do everything for this to stop, and Russian/commuinist/orthodox
'world' to be destroyed as quickly and cleanly as possible. History shows this
is possible: collapse of USSR already did most of this job, what remains is
easier and there is a good chance Russian threat will be over forever in a
generation if we (i mean Russians, with the help of the west) try really hard.
Don't let propaganda fool yourself: Russian threat is first, and foremost, a
threat to Russians themselves.

~~~
tobltobs
The russion threat is a threat to the world, because starting a war is a
popular option with those failing dictators.

~~~
anovikov
Not much, there isn't much Putin could do in the military sense without
completely crippling the economy. All he can in foreign affairs is bullying
small neighbors. Soviet Union was up to 7-8% of the world GDP and had Soviet
Bloc - allies that (not counting China - it was never a Soviet ally really)
combined had almost as much. Currently Russia has no allies - not even Belarus
- nobody recognized Crimea annexation for example. A few weak post-soviet
states could make pro-Russian statements once a while in exchange for another
shipment of cheap natural gas, but that's about it. And it is currently less
than 3% of the world's GDP.

It should be too obvious even for Putin that an attempt of a new Cold War will
be laughable. So he won't start another war or seriously threaten West.
Victims of his policies will be, in their overwhelming majority, Russian
people.

------
kevingadd
This is clearly a pragmatic move that protects them (and their customers), but
it feels telling to me that Putin's violent anti-LGBT crackdown - literally
threatening the lives of many Google employees, not to mention Google's
customers - wasn't sufficient cause to close or relocate their offices.

------
tinco
Will they close their offices in Europe as well when Europe implements the
same laws? They're put in a bad light now because Russia does it, but the EU
is contemplating the exact same laws.

These laws are not because Russia wants the data for themselves, they are
because the US currently has them and they've been shown to be absolutely
incapable of dealing with that responsibility in an acceptable fashion.

~~~
frozenport
No! The EU doesnt require its citizens to show ID when logging onto public
WiFi!

~~~
supergirl
Some EU countries do. Some want to. Why don't you get informed before talking?

Italy is one:
[http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Italy](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Italy)

The law is meant against terrorism. I am sure Russia has a good excuse too.

~~~
kolev
Russia or US - two chicks of the the same ass. I understand US and Russia and
their imperialistic desires, nothing new under the sun, but what I feel most
sorry about is that EU, which now has a higher population then US and Russia
and has enough power to beat each of them, is acting as a brown-noser to the
US and is getting tricked into this Cold War 2.0. Without EU support, US
cannot effective wage this war on Russia, and US is far and is clear that EU
will suffer most, when this will help bloom US economy. Stupid EU! 500 million
slaves to the US - unbelievable, with all the traditions in politics,
economics, and science, with all the brain power, it's pulled by the nose! I'm
ashamed!

