
Airbnb Stay Illegal In New York City, Rules Judge - chrisvineup
http://www.fastcompany.com/3009953/where-are-they-now/airbnb-illegal-in-new-york-rules-judge?utm_source=facebook
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jgalt212
I've lived in NYC for over 15 years, and as a resident, AirBnB is definitely a
net negative for me and others in my cohort--full time residents.

1\. Who wants transients moving about your building? I'm sure most of them are
nice, but they are certainly not as invested in exhibiting neighborly behavior
as full time residents.

2\. If AirBnB became a serious economic force in NYC, it would only make my
outrageously expensive city more expensive as apartment rents converged
upwards towards hotel rates.

3\. If I knew a neighbor was doing very short term sublets via AirBnB, or a
similar service, I would definitely report them to the building management
company or Police.

4\. People need to think carefully about the "sharing economy." Not all
applications of this paradigm are a net positive, and despite the hacker ethos
not all laws are meant to broken. Many laws that have the effect of protecting
entrenched players (hotels in this case), also serve valuable consumer
protection functions.

~~~
jvm
I completely agree that there are negative externalities to AirBNB, so I'm not
disagreeing with your conclusion. But point #2, the rising rents thing, seems
unlikely to me.

AirBNB increases the supply of housing. It does nothing to demand. Prices
should drop. I imagine it would either have no perceptible effect on rents, or
in an extreme scenario would cause hotels to close and convert to apartments
which would lower rents.

Finally, this is a common misconception, rents for hotels are identical to
rents for residential housing. Otherwise why wouldn't ever landlord switch to
running a hotel? It costs more per night to stay at one because (a) you're
paying for excessive housekeeping and (b) you're paying for the high vacancy
in downtimes caused by ultra-high turnover in tenants. Basically, a high
proportion of the hotel fee is paying for actual services, not the building's
rent.

~~~
gav
This isn't true in NYC, we're at 98-99% utilization. If anything AirBNB makes
this worse, it's encouraging people to rent an apartment to visitors instead
of releasing it into the rental market.

If you look at a $169/night AirBNB rate, that translates into about
$5000/month if it's fully rented. Even at a 90% you are making more money than
a 12-month lease. This will encourage landlords to not lease vacant
apartments, thus decreasing supply and raising prices. I know of building
owners that have been experimenting with AirBNB as it's more profitable for
them.

~~~
fnl
I think your estimate might possibly be to high: According to what I've been
explained by friends who let rooms via AirBnB, you don't fill your rooms or
apartment with "average" city rates. You will have to be on the lower end to
do that and have a "clean" rating, too. That seems to be about $ 50 for rooms
and about double for flats in NYC, therefore I would assume the actual income
is more likely to be about half your estimate.

On top of that, there is an administrative overhead to normal renting of a
flat. And, to be top-ranked, you have to be extra-nice to maintain an
excellent rating on the site, too. Not so sure that beats the comforts renting
with well-defined contracts...

I think AirBnB is for you or your family & friends if you want to use that
apartment yourself at times, too, or if you are sharing a room in your flat to
pay the mortgage, and similar such cases. It probably does not beat renting,
otherwise I assume this service would have gone even more "viral" long ago...

------
6thSigma
I visited NYC a few months ago and met someone who just moved to Manhattan
from Boston. I asked about how she found a place to live and she said it was
the worst experience she's ever had. She said that it was impossible to find
apartments for rent online, so she was basically forced to walk around the
neighborhoods knocking on doors to find an apartment. Half the apartments said
they were full, and the other half wouldn't even let her in the lobby.

She ended up biting the bullet and hiring an apartment hunter. All of a sudden
a ton of apartments had rooms available, including some of the apartments who
told her they were full or didn't let her in the lobby.

That told me there is a ton of politics involved in the leasing market in NYC.
It doesn't surprise me at all they don't like things like Airbnb.

~~~
w1ntermute
The startup Urban Compass is trying to fix this problem:
<http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/7/4304374/urban-compass>

------
ry0ohki
"According to CNET, the law originally meant to prevent landlords from turning
residential properties into hotels."

Which is what AirBnB is essentially?

~~~
jkaljundi
A good compromise for a start might be something about maximum number of
nights per year allowed. Later on, the government can get out from regulating
what people do with their property.

~~~
alexchamberlain
+1 for the first sentence.

The second on the other hand... governments all regulate what you can do on
your property. Who wants a night club upstairs?

~~~
k__
Nobody, but I hate the stuff government allows my landlord to do.

Just because it's to expensive to "own" a decent house in this part of the
world I have to dance when someone shouts?

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honzzz
It seems that many people are against AirBnB in their neighbourhood because
they they don't like strangers there all the time, it's not pleasant, nothing
happened yet but it might... stuff like that.

I understand those concerns but I think people who think AirBnB should be
illegal because of that are forgetting something. People benefit from being
tolerant to each other.

Everybody is sometimes doing something that is not pleasant to others. If you
are trying to be ok with that unless they are doing something really damaging,
they might cut you some slack when you need it - and you _are_ going to need
it and when you do, you might _really_ need it. Social pressure is usually
enough and people mostly avoid doing things unpleasant to others unless it's
somehow justified or considered necessary.

Otherwise you are going to live in an over-regulated society where everything
that can be unpleasant to somebody is illegal, you need a permit for simplest
things like throwing your kid a birthday party and everybody is worse off.

~~~
jbooth
Being tolerant to each other is great, because like you said, there will come
a time when that person is tolerant to you in return.

Unless they're in your apartment building on a one night rental. Then, you'll
never see them again and they have zero incentive to stay on your good side.

~~~
honzzz
I think you are completely missing the point. The favour does not necessarily
need to be returned by the same people. It's about tolerance accepted as
general social value.

Lets say that tolerance is some kind of a deal with society - lets all try to
be tolerant and we will all benefit - we all have to do our part and if we do
we build something together and we are more likely that others will tolerate
our annoying habits (or sexual orientation or religion or whatever).

Also you could say that this specific ' AirBnB tolerance deal' could be more
like please tolerate my guests because I need their money right now and I will
tolerate your [something annoying that you certainly do].

~~~
jbooth
I think it's a bit much to expect a moral and social revolution just to
support AirBnB.

People are nice to people they're going to see again and generally
indifferent/inconsiderate towards people they won't see. That goes double for
new york.

------
jamesmcbennett
I live in a postgraduate student residence that we are only allowed to sublet
to alumni and friends/family of residents.

Accepting that people have a need to sublet avoiding the cost of a empty room
is combined with the community's need not to have weirdo's. Despite being in
the center of London, it is like a small village.

What hasn't been included so far is the need for a airbnb host to include his
community needs which is presumably where the law is coming from.

------
will_brown
I would like to know if AirBnB is covering the $2,400 assessed penalty on
behalf of Nigel Warren.

I am also curious about the immediate steps AirBnB is taking to address this,
not the long term lobbying effort mentioned at the end of the article. For
example, will AirBnB disallow NYC listings under 29 days until this is
resolved? Or will they let people roll the dice with disclaimers that such
rentals may violate local law and result court assessed fines.

As naive as this may sound, especially for a company that is likely already
valued over $1 billion, this is a golden opportunity for AirBnB to gain
unparallelled media and bolster main stream support.

~~~
kmfrk

        As naive as this may sound, especially for a company that 
        is likely already valued over $1 billion, this is a 
        golden opportunity for AirBnB to gain unparallelled media 
        and bolster main stream support.
    

I don't know if that's the case - in fact, it might be the exact opposite.
People are growing increasingly tired of companies like Uber and Airbnb using
libertarian talking points to rally supporters, whenever regulation gets in
their way.

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5612159>

~~~
will_brown
This post is proof enough there is push back, and a voice against neighbors
renting out to "unknowns" on short term basis.

Coincidentally, your use of libertarian talking point caught me off guard, not
that I think it is wrong, but I would have thought "conservative" talking
points would be more on point. That is conservatives would generally take the
approach that individuals have the freedom to contract especially for their
own assets and the ever increasing size and reach of government is intruding
on our economic ability and freedom to contract.

Back to your point the situation is what it is for AirBnB in NYC, some will
certainly see adversity but others will see opportunity.

~~~
redblacktree
The political views you describe are more precisely termed libertarian (small
L), than conservative. Though they could arguably be attributed to both
groups.

------
Diamons
I'm a New Yorker here and plain and simple, we don't want AirBnB. This is New
York City and the residents of this city have time and time again voiced their
displeasure towards AirBnB, so why are people from elsewhere saying this is a
bad thing?

The shoe just doesn't fit here.

~~~
kirillzubovsky
I would bet that thousands of New Yorkers who use Airbnb to make ends meet
think otherwise.

------
macleanjr
Title is very misleading, as this only applies to New York City, and not the
other 57 counties!

~~~
chrisvineup
Fixed that, sorry!

~~~
macleanjr
Thanks so much!

------
jacques_chester
This is unhappy news. I was hoping to visit NYC later this year and, for the
price of a pretty underwhelming hotel room, there were hundreds of apartments
in interesting suburbs.

Oh well. At least San Francisco is still OK.

~~~
joonix
People will continue to do it, there are still sublets all over NYC. Just use
craigslist. AirBNB listings are _always_ overpriced anyways.

The real issue in NYC is squatting. Remember, it takes almost 8 months to go
through housing court to get someone evicted in this city. A subtenant could
overstay their stay and there's not much you could do about it other than go
through this process. A workaround may be to not have any written sublease
agreement, get paid in cash only, and call the subtenant a guest.

~~~
skorgu
IANAL but I believe if the tenant can show you accepted rent it counts as a
month to month lease and standard eviction process applies [0]. I don't know
what it takes to show that but in general nyc courts are pretty tenant
friendly.

[0]
[http://www.housingnyc.com/html/resources/attygenguide.html#1...](http://www.housingnyc.com/html/resources/attygenguide.html#12)

------
pothibo
I've used Airbnb to stay in Manhattan last winter and it's a shame that it
comes to this since I was planning to use it again.

The thing that made us use airbnb was two folds: Having a kitchen was
important to us (quick breakfast eating whatever we want) and also the feeling
of "living in the Big Apple".

Second part would have been impossible with hotels. Sad really.

As for some rants about AirBnber's "not being as invested in exhibiting
neighborly behavior".

The same could be said about other cultures moving in your neighborhood.

------
michool
Laws are needed to prevent people being ripped off and generally taken
advantage of. What this law from the past fails to cater for is that bad
comments on AirBnB could well be as effective at safeguarding others against
sub-standard rooms as the original law could ever be. Or much better and that
must be a scary thought for legislators.

~~~
jasonlotito
> Laws are needed to prevent people being ripped off and generally taken
> advantage of.

You mean like people renting an apartment only to find out the rest of the
place is being used as a hotel?

~~~
michool
Well, that too. That's the thing about people living together - they're always
going to get into each other's way.

------
nsmartt
My roommate and I ruled out moving to NYC about a month ago when we started
reading about NY and NYC government.

I was going to visit for a few months at my roommate's insistence. According
to this, it's legal as long as I rent for at least a month, but I'm becoming
less and less inclined to visit at all.

~~~
jawngee
Because AirBnB is illegal?

I get AirBnB as a service, I really do, but it isn't win-win all around for
everyone involved, specifically in big cities where real estate is a precious
commodity. Neighbors lose by having strangers in their buildings, renters lose
out on available space, airbnb customers lose out on protection of the law
(though they have the protection of the company, but the two are not
equivalent).

Not only have I seen it in my building, but I've seen it in other friend's
buildings, in condos that they've bought (I rent). It's a shitty situation for
them having strangers consistently churning through the property. Nothing bad
has happened yet, but would you want that whole awkward scenario happening on
your front step?

~~~
nsmartt
> _Because AirBnB is illegal?_

No, but the fact that it's illegal to rent out a building I own for a few
weeks while I'm on vacation is another paper cut among the many I have already
received when researching NY and NYC government. This wouldn't affect me
directly (as I've said, living there was ruled out), but I don't approve. It
does, therefore, influence my inclination to visit. If this were the only
issue, it wouldn't be a deal breaker. I'd just declare it as unfortunate and
visit for longer than 29 days to avoid legal issues.

> _Neighbors lose by having strangers in their buildings_

I agree with this, but this sounds like a problem to be handled by the owner
of the establishment, not a problem to be handled by government.

> _renters lose out on available space_

Only if those renters are offering places for short term visits anyway. I have
no idea whether that's a common scenario, but leasers are hardly missing out
because I'm renting out an extra room.

> _would you want that whole awkward scenario happening on your front step?_

I probably wouldn't, but I still don't consider it to be the government's job
to ensure that it isn't happening.

~~~
jcampbell1
> I agree with this, but this sounds like a problem to be handled by the owner
> of the establishment, not a problem to be handled by government.

Even hard core libertarian recognize one function of government it to enforce
contracts. Without the government stepping in, what do you suggest? Have Boris
from Brighton Beach enforce the contract?

~~~
nsmartt
Isn't eviction the answer to a violation of my lease? I haven't suggested that
the government shouldn't enforce contracts. Only that I don't see the need for
there to be a law governing what I can do with my own property. I'm not even
sure this is a very libertarian stance.

~~~
jawngee
You can't evict someone that owns the apartment they are air'ing out. (What is
the correct verb for this? Anyone know? Airbnb'ing? Air'ing?) Even in a coop
it is incredibly difficult to make that move, if not impossible.

~~~
nsmartt
If they own it, I assert that they have the right to "air it out", as you put
it, regardless of my own objections. This is the same issue I have with
regulated lawn maintenance.

------
Kiro
Highly illegal in Sweden as well.

~~~
hakanito
Source?

~~~
kalleboo
I can believe it. Sweden has a highly regulated renter's market. For instance,
you're not allowed to sublet at a cost substantially higher than the average
cost of publicly owned housing. People have successfully rented a luxury
apartment, then gone to court to get the price difference back.

~~~
samuellb
Since February 1, 2013 you can no longer get rent back retroactively [1]. You
can still send a complaint but then the landlord might refuse to extend your
(usually short-term) contract.

[1]
[http://www.konsumentverket.se/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/Nyhetsarki...](http://www.konsumentverket.se/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/Nyhetsarkiv-2013/Nya-
regler-for-uthyrning-av-bostadsratter-och-villor/) (in Swedish)

~~~
kalleboo
Thanks for the update!

------
WA
Does this have practical consequences and if so, when? Because right now, I
can still find plenty of appartments in NYC.

~~~
mbesto
_The ruling doesn't necessarily mean all Airbnb hosts will be cracked down on,
as the city only enforces the rule when a complaint is filed._

------
grandalf
Considering that there are tens of thousands of people kept captive as sex
workers in NYC, the decision to crack down on something like airbnb
illustrates the strength of the corruption used to maintain the status quo.

These kinds of conservative (status-quo preserving) laws are usually exactly
that, even if there is some social or humanitarian justification made for
their existence.

~~~
smackfu
I'm pretty sure the part of the government in charge of regulating hotels is
different from the part that catches illegal sex workers.

~~~
d23
I blame the white house.

