
Human cycles: History as science - ananyob
http://www.nature.com/news/human-cycles-history-as-science-1.11078
======
gbog
I'm very sceptical. I listened recently to economic experts talking in the
90s, they were all saying we were in the ascending phase of some macro cycle,
and that we had thirty years of growth ahead. None did forecast the crisis we
had since. They also did not say a word about the economic equilibrium bending
east.

Please take these cycle theory with a grain of salt. It is too easy to find
patterns and to invent explanations for them, but there is no more reason to
have recurring patterns in history than to have patterns when playing with a
dice.

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essayist
A comparison with the Lotka-Volterra equation

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotka%E2%80%93Volterra_equatio...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotka%E2%80%93Volterra_equation#Physical_meanings_of_the_equations)

which are the mathematical explanation of predator prey cycles, shows what's
missing in the article and possibly in the research - the explanation for the
cycles.

Predator-prey cycles can be tied back to biological constants - how quickly
prey and predator reproduce, how the availability of prey affects predator
reproduction, etc. Thus, if you want to model wolves and sheep rather than
foxes and rabbits, you can do so, if you know the various biological
constants.

I don't get the sense that Turchin has identified the underlying dynamics.

~~~
jacques_chester
> I don't get the sense that Turchin has identified the underlying dynamics.

Then you should read his work. He describes what he thinks are the driving
dynamics of the rise-and-fall process.

~~~
essayist
Ok, so I looked at the article again, and got that they focus on population,
social structure, state strength, and political instability. It's even more
interesting that they identify two cycles with at least some dynamics:

1\. the "secular" cycle: in the beginning of the cycle, _supply and demand for
labour roughly balance out. In time, the population grows, labour supply
outstrips demand, elites form and the living standards of the poorest fall. At
a certain point, the society becomes top-heavy with elites, who start fighting
for power. Political instability ensues and leads to collapse, and the cycle
begins again._

2\. the "fathers and sons" cycle: _the father responds violently to a
perceived social injustice; the son lives with the miserable legacy of the
resulting conflict and abstains; the third generation begins again._

Thanks for the nudge.

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jacques_chester
Peter Turchin published a highly readable pop-science account of his work in a
book called _War and Peace and War_. I read it a few months ago and gave a
review.

[http://chester.id.au/2012/05/14/review-war-and-peace-and-
war...](http://chester.id.au/2012/05/14/review-war-and-peace-and-war/)

What's left out of this link is that Turchin still hedges his findings
heavily. He's not performing precise predictions; he can't. He's pointing out
dynamics that acquire massive social inertia and eventually force the phase
change of whole societies.

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asg
I hope, in this case, given the really close parallels, it wont be facetious
to say: Hari Seldon! Fact following from fiction?

~~~
jacques_chester
He talks a bit about Hari Seldon in his work.

~~~
throwaway1979
To give HN skimmers some context: Hari Seldon is a key character in Isaac
Asimov's Foundation series. He develops a new science called "psychohistory",
which enables accurate prediction of the behavior of extremely large (galactic
scale) groups of people.

When I read the first book of the series, an idea that resonated with me was
the marginalization of scientists. I kept seeing aspects of current society
reflected in his work. What I wonder is if scientists felt the same way at the
time Asimov wrote the series?

P.S. It is a fantastic series of books. I encountered them my chance in the
last few years. Highly recommended!

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alkimie
I find it interesting that WWII and the Korean War do not show as spikes in
his graph.

~~~
pnathan
It's a US-centric graph, if I'm not mistaken. But it is interesting that WW2
doesn't trail effects. Although, there is a long-standing theory that WW1 and
WW2 were just the same war.

~~~
panacea
Methinks Alkamie disguised a call of 'bullshit!' behind a sort of empty
platitude such as "I find it interesting".

>It's a US-centric graph

The title is "Human cycles: History as science"

A US-centric graph that represents the cycles of humanity?

>cliodynamics

Do we need a fancy name for the phenomenon that aspects of history tend to
repeat?

Yes, aspects of history tend to repeat, but there's no way to use that
knowledge to determine periodicy, severity, when it will happen, if it will
happen etc.

I'll say what Alkamie didn't. This is bullshit.

------
joshuahedlund
I wonder what he thinks of Steven Pinker's paradigm[1] that world violence has
been declining for centuries and is the lowest it's ever been.

Besides, there will be too many old people in the US to have mass riots in the
2020's.

[1]One example:
[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405311190410670457658...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904106704576583203589408180.html)

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bryanlarsen
Sounds like a good long bet (<http://longbets.org/>). I'd be willing to bet
that "Worldwide, the 2020s will be less violent than any preceding decade in
the 20th or 21st century".

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floppydisk
I'm going to have to track this guy's book down. Subject looks interesting,
and the nature article leaves some information lacking, sadly.

For instance, Turchin mentions seeing this pattern in Ancient Rome and Egpyt
(past and present) but he doesn't explain how he accounts for the Middle Ages
and European colonial expansion. Arguably the number of "violent" events
during those periods would be concentrated to the point of potentially
breaking the father-son-grandson model he advocates. The chart in Nature
leaves out things like the Reconquista of Spain, Ghengis Khan and heirs
marching into Europe, the Crusades, the 50 years war, the French Revolution,
and numerous other major upheaval events that occurred in smaller windows than
those 50 year cycles he claims.

I guess I want to know what happens when you add in those time frames missing
from his graph. Does it show the amount of "conflict" in the world decreasing
with time as civilization (our understanding of it) expands around the world?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
Here they are!

<http://www.amazon.com/Peter-Turchin/e/B001IU2M2K>

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HotKFreshSwag
Humans see patterns where there are none.

[http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_shermer_on_believing_strang...](http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_shermer_on_believing_strange_things.html)

------
thaumaturgy
I think that applying statistical methodology to the study of history might
provide some insights into cause-and-effect and the situations surrounding
historical events. But, I seriously doubt that there are any "cycles" to be
found.

For one thing, major events in human history absolutely are (or have been)
pivotal on just one or a few individuals. A fun book on this is, "What If?",
by Robert Cowley. Also, "How the Scots Invented the Modern World". Being the
right person, in the right place, at the right time has been a recurring theme
throughout history. For example, the final vote for the unification of
Scotland and England was led by one passionate, older man -- who died of a
stroke later that night. Had he died the night before, it's likely that his
opposition, an almost equally skilled and passionate orator, would have won
the vote instead.

The fathers-and-sons cycle described in the article is a relatively recent
phenomenon, where society is settling down into a more peaceful state overall,
and even then, the two greatest wars in human history violate the cycle: World
Wars 1 and 2. Popular sentiment in the U.S. was against being involved in
World War 2, after the horrors scene by the previous generation in World War
1, so the cycle isn't completely without merit. But, as usual in human
history, there are too many other factors involved in the outcome.

I also think that history changes a lot depending on how you look at it. There
are so many human societies on the planet at any given time, each one doing so
many different things, that it's easy to step too far back in perspective by
ignoring many of the events of history, and then start to think that you an
discern some kind of a pattern or cycle. One of my favorite books for this is
"Chronicle of the 20th Century", a collection of short-form news articles and
pictures from the U.S. from 1900 through 1987. Flipping through that, it's
always stunning just how much is so easily forgotten, how rich and complex
each day was for the people living through those years.

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jbattle
How does he account for the fact that generations do not proceed in lock-step
across families? Some parents have children earlier than others - siblings can
be spread across ~15 year periods, etc.

I'd hope he'd pretty easily be able to generate graphs like this for every
society where the data is available - should be at least a dozen or so over
the last 150-200 years. Though I'd imagine if his theory is correct, the time
spans would vary slightly from society to society based on average age of
parents at the time of childbirth.

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jsmcallister
3 violent "events" happening equidistant from each other does not mean a 4th
is inevitable in the same timeframe. If I see proof back hundreds of years,
then I would listen. Either way, pretty safe prediction that humans will act
violently in the next 10 years.

~~~
jacques_chester
His model proposes that the timing of the mesocycles of violence is set by the
father-grandson dynamic and that the timing of the macrocycles of decline is 3
or 4 mesocycles once the empire has reached its zenith.

------
latch
Anyone who finds this interesting might also find the Strauss-Howe
generational theory (1) of interest. It talks about the generational cycle in
America.

(1) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss-
Howe_generational_theor...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss-
Howe_generational_theory)

------
CodeCube
So the question is, if there comes a period of upheaval in the next decade ...
what could a well-meaning entrepreneur work on now that will either help
socially (secure communications, ad-hoc networking to avoid government
lockdowns). Or maybe even position themselves for profit (3d printing tech to
manufacture weapons, for example)?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
It would mean political entrepreneurship would be more valuable than the
fundamental kind - witness who tends to do well in post-Soviet states or even
post-revolutionary America. Or, if one rejects political involvement,
relocating to an expected stable state.

~~~
CodeCube
curiously, I have a friend who's family hails from georgia. Their old(ish)
money came from after the civil war, when his great(N) grandfather started
shipping grain and other desperately sought after food items to heavily
affected civil war states/cities. A relatively small investment ended up
multiplying and benefiting many generations :)

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ck2
The police have never been more militarized, even simple protesting against
something is more and more likely to at a minimum get you arrested if not shot
or "less lethal" weapon used against you like pepper spray in the face despite
you being unarmed and non-violent (while the police will receive a paid
vacation for doing so).

In 1st world countries I think protests are doomed. Wait till they start
rolling out the sonic canons and drones at the RNC and DNC conventions this
year and see if you agree. Oh and as a bonus, the millions spent on "security"
at the conventions is taxpayer funded - congress votes on it for themselves
every time.

~~~
viscanti
Tell that to the student protesters at Kent State in 1970. 4 killed, 9 wounded
(one of whom was permanently paralyzed), in a peaceful protest. It was a time
when the national guard was regularly called in to break up peaceful protests.

There isn't an increase in violence, there's an increase in information now.
There weren't cellphone videos of police violence on youtube in the 1970s
(neither existed). There weren't 24 hour news stations who needed any content
they could get (violence sells). We're over-saturated with ways to see current
violence, and it can make it seem like it's happening more now (there's more
reports of it, so it seems like it must be happening more). That's not at all
the case.

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hxf148
John C Dvorak has a theory, I am not sure if it is just his about cycles and a
predicted pattern of events going back to the 1600's that indicates a dip in
things starting in 2017.

Personally I am an optimist and think that as a whole we will continue to
persevere and generally get it right more often, with more free information,
we learn faster and eventually we evolve our outlook and efforts for the
better.

Not because we want to, it's something about our species and tenacity to
survive happy.

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stillbourne
Psychohistory? Where is Hari Seldon when you need him?

~~~
rmc
In the fiction aisle.

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username3
Bankers are creatures of habit <http://www.prolognet.qc.ca/clyde/pres.htm>

