
The Penny Must Die - elberto34
http://www.theecjournal.com/single-post/2016/02/14/Why-The-Penny-Must-Die
======
M_Grey
The persistence of the penny is a symptom, in my view, of just how apathetic
and dysfunction the political system is at every level. It's a small
annoyance, with a small fix that has been done by other countries with good
results. That it isn't done is largely just a matter of people not
participating in the process at all, and congress not really doing their job.

It's a small thing, but then, so is a canary in a coal mine. This penny thing
has been an irritant for years, and the things presaged by accepting that are
starting to emerge... like failing infrastructure.

~~~
djsumdog
The EU still has 1/2cent coins (although I think Belgium no longer allows
shops to give them as change).

Pennies are gone in AU/NZ and other south pacific countries.

~~~
astrodust
Canada got rid of it a few years ago despite all the wild-eyed hysteria
surrounding the phase-out. Senior citizens did not go bankrupt, stores selling
inexpensive items did not go under, and a myriad of other nonsense proved to
be utterly unfounded.

A penny is so worthless these days even homeless people throw them out.

Visiting the US is like visiting a time machine where pennies and dollar bills
still exist, where chip and pin is only just coming into fashion, and where
"checks" are still used for ordinary transactions like buying groceries.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
> where "checks" are still used for ordinary transactions like buying
> groceries.

I've been wondering if there are statistics regarding the usage of checks.
When I was younger almost every week I'd get stuck in line by someone very,
very slowly writing a check. But I haven't seen someone write one in...well it
must be at least 3 or 4 years ago and that was at some tiny store that didn't
accept credit cards.

Do people really still write checks in a number that's in any way significant?

~~~
ghaff
I don't in stores but it's still pretty much the standard way to pay a lot of
service people. (Physical checks are also used in a number of payments I make
through my online bank bill pay although I never see the actual check.)

~~~
BinaryIdiot
> it's still pretty much the standard way to pay a lot of service people

Fair enough I was mostly referring to using them at retail locations like I
thought parent was alluding to. I forgot I also pay more service folks with a
check (though with things like stripe I see more and more service folks using
those to prevent bounced checks).

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raverbashing
Yes, several countries have done away with the smallest denomination. Nothing
to miss about carrying less coins around

But the $1 bill really ought to be a coin instead

~~~
ghaff
>But the $1 bill really ought to be a coin instead

There have been various efforts at dollar coins and they've never really taken
off.

I would hate this. I don't use a lot of cash in general but I really like the
fact that, when I do use cash, except for some quarters I save for parking
meters, coins are basically in the dump in a jar when I get home value. I
dislike when I travel to UK/EU that there's coinage of sufficient value that I
can't just ignore my loose change.

If I have to use cash I'd much rather just use bills. Coins require some sort
of different container to carry them.

~~~
astrodust
The whole _point_ of having a $1 coin is so buying something like a can of
coke or paying for a parking spot doesn't involve stuffing ten or quarters
into the machine. It's two or three coins if you're doing it right, max.

Parking meters. Laundry. Vending machines. Public transit. These are all
things made immeasurably better by having coins that have _value_.

> I can't just ignore my loose change.

Sure you can. Back when I was still using cash I'd just dump it all in a jar
and at the end of the year I'd have at least $800-1000 of savings.

It's also nice that with a single coin you can buy something. A bagel? A
muffin? A coffee? If you shop at the right place you might even be able to
swing a muffin _and_ a coffee for a single coin.

You really can't get much for $0.25 these days. Even a pack of gum is vastly
more than that.

~~~
ghaff
Basically the _only_ thing I use coins for is parking meters and having a
bunch of quarters in my car isn't a big deal. I don't use laundry machines. I
don't know the last time I used a vending machine. I have a stored value card
for public transit.

I do need $1-ish value cash for tips etc. from time to time and I don't want
to carry coinage for that purpose.

~~~
madeofpalk
Lets kill two birds with one stones and also abolish the horrific tipping
culture the US has ;)

~~~
khedoros1
I'd be happy if prices were set such that tips weren't a necessary part of
many workers' incomes, but annoyed if I had to carry around coins for the
specific purpose of showing my especial appreciation of something.

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seanalltogether
At what point is the nickel not worth the effort to keep around as well? It
might be easier to sell everyone on the idea of rounding to the nearest 10
cents to keep prices nice and even.

~~~
jejones3141
The problem with that rounding is that I suspect I know which direction the
rounding will always go... and for things like gasoline or water (or even pork
chops, which differ in size) there's no way to prevent a price that would
require rounding.

~~~
madeofpalk
Many other countries solve this by just rounding the final price up or down
regardless. So if your fuel comes to $100.02, all you pay is $100. If it comes
to $100.04, you pay $100.05.

It works fine, no one dies.

------
Animats
The penny lobby [1] is a front for the zinc industry. Mostly Jarden Zinc
Products.

[1] [http://www.pennies.org](http://www.pennies.org)

------
djsumdog
> The reason why we have money is so that they can facilitate trade of goods
> and services so that we don’t have to barter like savages.

This is entirely wrong. In high school you're taught that we went from barter
to money to credit, but in reality, the earliest human economies were credit
based.

People sometimes say, "x society collapsed and reverted to barter," but in
every case, they "revert" to the currency of trade from the previous state ..
or they use something generic like "Oxen" but they never actually trade in
real Oxen; they just use it as a unit of measure.

I do agree the penny should be deprecated, and I know it sounds nit-picky, but
myths like this prop up a narrative that doesn't match with history, and it
distorts our perception of what money and markets truly are.

I highly recommend the book Debt the First 5,000 Years, as it goes into great
detail about the history of debt, money and slavery.

------
iLoch
Not a fan of the "they cost more to make than they're worth" argument. How
much does it cost to make a $100 bill?

Nevertheless, we Canadians have been without pennies for a few years now. I
have no complaints, just less change, which is nice.

~~~
ClassyJacket
15.5 cents

[https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12771.htm](https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12771.htm)

~~~
newjersey
Wouldn't the next logical conclusion be to get rid of cash altogether?

Did I fall for a slippery slope fallacy?

~~~
astrodust
That 15 cents helps facilitate commerce, and the lifetime of a bill is usually
more than a single transaction. It's not a huge cost unless people are
destroying a lot of bills.

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ghaff
The flip side of US denominational conservativism that appeared starting in,
oh, the 1950s or so is that $20 bills are effectively the maximum value you
can depend on being routinely accepted.

I get $100 bills to travel overseas (and they're routinely accepted if I'm
using US currency for something). But I'd in no way depend on getting a $50 or
$100 accepted in a US store. I admit that I see fewer signs to that effect
these days than I maybe did in the past but I do have to go int to a bank
teller if I want to get $100 bills for travelling.

------
unabridged
Americans are too sentimental, its why we could never switch to the metric
system. And congress voting to get rid of the penny is so low on priority I
wouldn't count on it happening soon.

Pennies are made because there is demand. If businesses stop requesting rolls
of pennies, the mint would make less of them. If you want to get rid of
pennies lobby businesses to round their after tax prices to the nearest
nickel. Just McDonalds and Walmart dropping the penny might cut the amount in
circulation by a significant amount.

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jackyinger
When I visited India I found that one rupee is the smallest increment offered.
It's very roughly equivalent to the American nickel. Even though cost of
living there is much cheaper, the coarser grain of currency does not cause
trouble.

When available currency has limited resolution merchants simply adjust their
quantities to match.

Wouldn't it be nice to just pay 3.50 and get a tad more product than 3.37 and
futz with the change?

------
Taniwha
The problem in the US with getting rid of pennies is that the US does not
quote prices with sales tax included (unlike every other country on the
planet). If you do that then you can quote prices at appropriate price points
(4.25, 5.95 etc)

Of course if you get rid of the penny then rounding only occurs when you pay
with cash - when you pay with a card you still get to pay to the penny

~~~
ghaff
>unlike every other country on the planet

That's not true at all. Many prices (in restaurants but also elsewhere) in
both Canada and Europe don't include sales tax/VAT.

~~~
herbst
Never seen that in europe. Examples?

~~~
gpderetta
I'm pretty sure you are required to quote with VAT included in Europe by law.

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zer00eyz
There is a basic problem with this argument.

There are lots of places in the world that accept and use the dollar as a
means of trade, where the penny is still of value.

[https://qz.com/260980/meet-the-countries-that-dont-use-
their...](https://qz.com/260980/meet-the-countries-that-dont-use-their-own-
currency/)

What amounts to a rounding error for most Americans would quickly add up in
places that depend on the dollar for currency (official or un officially) as
they typically have larger marginal populations.

~~~
reddytowns
This is not the problem of the USA.

~~~
astrodust
If somewhere the economy of a country is built on melting down pennies and
making brass statues that's also not the problem of the US Mint.

------
majewsky
Obligatory link to John Oliver discussing the same topic in his usual manner:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tyszHg96KI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tyszHg96KI)

------
jwilk
Archived copy that can be read without JS enabled:

[https://archive.fo/wM6HU](https://archive.fo/wM6HU)

------
jwilk
Do other countries have nicknames for their coins?

In Poland, if you want to talk about a particular coin, you use its
denomination.

~~~
Taniwha
In NZ we used to have names like shilling and florin etc, we ditched them when
we went decimal

