
Ask HN: Best sleep trackers? - softwaredoug
I have pretty chronic sleep problems. Several in fact :-&#x2F;. I wanted to get a sense form the tech-aware community what sleep trackers do people use? How accurate are they? Can you sleep comfortably with them? One challenge I have is I need to track my <i>leg movements</i> given restless legs...<p>(Yes I’ve had sleep studies and know home sleep tracking is imperfect...)
======
elric
Anecdata: Have sleep apnea, so am interested in better sleep, and I'm hooked
up to a CPAP machine which registers every breath I take. I've tried several
devices (withings, 2 garmin smart watches and a fitbit), and quite frankly,
the results have been appalling.

Some random observations:

* My latest garmin has an "SpO2" sensor. Which is basically a random number generator with red LED. When I compare the results with an actual on-finger SpO2 monitor, there is zero correlation.

* Both the fitbit and the garmins have mistaken masturbation for deep sleep. You would think that the wrist movement would be a clue to _not being asleep_ , but no. Deep sleep.

* The deep sleep vs REM classification seems to be based more on time-of-day than on anything else. Apparently I always start my nights with a block of deep sleep, followed by an alternating pattern of light & REM. This is true even when I'm _awake_ during this "deep sleep" malarky.

* My CPAP, on the other hand, is very useful for telling apart sleep & waking. Breathing rate becomes much more steady when asleep. I can see when I woke up, even if it's just for a few seconds while I change position.

~~~
TylerE
How are you getting that much data off a cpap? Mine will give me basic states
(on time, # apnea events) but not much else.

~~~
atotic
There are online communities dedicated to these questions. Looks like the
current tool of choice is OSCR [https://gitlab.com/pholy/OSCAR-
code](https://gitlab.com/pholy/OSCAR-code)

------
xlaacid
None. Period. I was in human sleep research for 14 years as a technologist and
proj manager. I tested dozens and dozens of devices- a mattress pad that
claimed to track sleep. None of them are accurate.

to track limb movements you need EMG attached to your legs and then to a
recorder. Then a sleep tech certified in scoring must review the results.

A board certified sleep doctor can get you home devices to track periodic limb
movement if necessary.

Acti-watches are the only devices that you might be able to get "accurate"
sleep(not limbs)tracking. They're expensive and you need to buy analysis
software to view results. I would not waste your money on any publicly
available device- they wont get you the data you want.

~~~
throwaway9d0291
Are you aware of modern consumer sleep-tracking headbands like Dreem and
Philips SmartSleep? Considering these have an EEG, I find it hard to believe
they're less accurate than an acti-watch.

Dreem has a self-run study that claims pretty great results [0], do you have
any objections to their methodology?

[0]:
[https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/662734v1](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/662734v1)

~~~
user_error
Thanks for citing the study. Just read through the introduction and conclusion
and the Dreem sounds very promising.

After reading Matthew Walker's "Why we Sleep", I currently use the deep sleep
percentage metric provided by the Sleep as Android app to determine how well I
sleep, and jot it down in a sleep log. The book has given me the idea that
deep and uninterrupted sleep is hugely important, but obviously the app is
only able to give a crude estimate.

Perhaps this headband would give me better insights into my (failings of)
sleep. I hope the parent commenter replies to your message.

------
gtbcb
[https://ouraring.com/](https://ouraring.com/) is pretty awesome. I've started
sleeping more, at more consistent times, and consuming less caffeine and
alcohol.

$75 off -
[http://ouraring.com/partners/rohannatraj](http://ouraring.com/partners/rohannatraj)
\- doesn't benefit me, just a coupon I received myself.

~~~
cjbprime
Agree with the Oura recommendation, and there's a separate reason to be
interested in Oura -- it records body temperature, which might be useful in
predicting infection.

Here's a project my spouse is working on to see whether it's possible to warn
you when you're getting sick using the combination of resting heart rate (from
Fitbit), temperature (from Oura) and sleep data:

[https://quantifiedflu.org/](https://quantifiedflu.org/)

~~~
sna1l
I'm in this study with the Oura Ring/UCSF, that might interest your spouse --
[https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/23/oura-partners-with-ucsf-
to...](https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/23/oura-partners-with-ucsf-to-determine-
if-its-smart-ring-can-hep-detect-covid-19-early/)

------
dsaavy
Autosleep for Apple Watch has had a significant impact on my life and I always
rave about it to friends. I've been able to recognize choices in my daily life
that significantly impact my sleep quality and have made changes that have
improved my sleep because of it.

I don't know how accurate it is in terms of tracking restless legs unless the
movement of your legs causes movement of your upper body that would impact
watch acceleration sensors and gyroscope?

Quality sleep seems to have a cascading impact on the rest of life so this app
has been hands down the most useful purchase I've ever made in the software
category.

~~~
jjuel
Do you wear your watch when sleeping then now? When do you charge it?

~~~
tzs
I have a Series 4, and I normally have "Wake Screen on Wrist Raise" turned off
except for 30-40 minutes per day when I'm exercising. I'll also sometime turn
that on if I'm using a timer that I want to be able to see at a glance.

I charge it in the evening, when I'm relaxing reading or watching TV. I can
usually get it to 100% before I go to bed. If not, I'll put it on the first
time I wake up to urinate that night.

By the time it gets to the next evening, it is usually at 55-65%.

If I forget to charge it in the evening (e.g, I fall asleep while reading or
watching TV), it would probably make it fine to the next evening. In those
cases, though, I'll stick it on the charger while I shower and have breakfast.
That's more than enough to ensure no problem getting to the evening.

------
hoopism
I recall reading a paper that found that compared to clinical sleep study
equipment (you know, electrodes all over your head) that most devices were
random at best in terms of measuring REM sleep. I did a lot of research when a
friend went all in on sleep monitoring and wound up worse than when he started
(worrying over data).

I didn't exhaustively research but based on un-biased available science I
found at the time, any investment (in devices/apps) was not worth time and
money. Maybe that has changed.

See
[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/17/technology/personaltech/s...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/17/technology/personaltech/sleep-
tracking-devices-apps.html)

"For a person to be worrying about their sleep stages is like being worried
about the gas makeup of the air you're breathing in," he said."

For study see [https://nutritionalrevolution.org/2019/07/20/why-the-oura-
ri...](https://nutritionalrevolution.org/2019/07/20/why-the-oura-ring-sucks-
for-tracking-sleep-and-might-be-harming-your-health/)

""From EBE analysis, ŌURA ring had a 96% sensitivity to detect sleep, and
agreement of 65%, 51%, and 61%, in detecting "light sleep" (N1), "deep sleep"
(N2 + N3), and REM sleep, respectively. Specificity in detecting wake was
48%."

Specificity in detecting wake was 48%! If this was a medical test, it would
never be approved by FDA."

The NYT article summed up reality for most nicely:

"Dr. Vallat told me that if I really wanted to get better sleep, I should
simply try to sleep and wake up at the same time every day — that would help
my brain learn how to build a structure for optimal sleep. He also advised
making the bedroom a cool environment (about 68 degrees) and as dark as
possible; avoiding alcohol in the evening; not checking email or social media
right before bed; and asking myself each morning when I woke up, "Do I feel
refreshed?""

Stop drinking and watching tv/screens and go to bed on time... don't need an
expensive ring or watch to tell you this...

~~~
mattjaynes
I have pretty big doubts about the usefulness of clinical sleep tests after
having had one a few years ago. Perhaps they work well for very deep and
immediate sleepers. But with the electrodes, a strange location, multiple
interruptions, a sleep position I never sleep in, etc, it was probably one of
the worst nights of sleep in my life. The doctor seemed to disregard all of
that and treat it as my typical night sleep and based the treatment
recommendations on it, which is when I realized I needed to seek help
elsewhere. I've found other methods like Fitbit come closer to reality since
they record the data under normal sleep conditions.

~~~
balfirevic
> The doctor seemed to disregard all of that and treat it as my typical night
> sleep and based the treatment recommendations on it

What did the doctor recommend?

~~~
mattjaynes
She recommended the standard CPAP route. Instead, I chose to lose weight,
improve my fitness, and switch to side sleeping. Fortunately that resolved my
issues.

------
KerryJones
Sleep As Android

I don't think it will directly track leg movement, but it tracks sounds, so if
you're shuffling the sheets it could possibly pick that up. It's a very highly
rated app and I've used it successfully myself.

~~~
joecot
It also works with a bunch of smart watches[1]. I use a Android WearOS Fossil
watch, connect it to Sleep as Android, and then it'll use my watch movements
to track my sleep. The Smart Alarm to wake me a little early if I'm almost
awake is a godsend. This is a quick list of compatible devices, but any WearOS
device should work.

[https://docs.sleep.urbandroid.org/devices/wearables.html](https://docs.sleep.urbandroid.org/devices/wearables.html)

------
vikp
I haven't seen Withings Sleep mentioned -
[https://www.withings.com/us/en/sleep](https://www.withings.com/us/en/sleep) .

This one is basically "set it and forget it". You put it under your mattress
and calibrate it, then it tracks automatically.

I like it because I don't have to bring any gadgets into the bedroom, or
remember to turn on tracking.

It seems pretty accurate from what I've seen so far, although I don't have
anything to compare it to. I've found it very useful for testing various sleep
interventions.

~~~
rstupek
I've been using one for me and my SO and it's been working pretty well for us.
Can definitely confirm that it shows marked improvement in sleep once I got a
cpap

------
cassianoleal
Dreem 2* is probably the best tracker you can get to use at home.

The band is not uncomfortable (after a couple of nights, it's very strange at
first) and it will give you lots of insights other solutions can't.

You do have to put it on before bed and take it off and charge in the morning
though. And it's expensive.

* [https://dreem.com/en](https://dreem.com/en)

~~~
jonteru
+1 for this one, I am also a happy user. I needed to send it back after a week
of use which was annoying, but after they fixed it it's pretty much perfect.

I did significant research into the sleep trackers before deciding and the
bottom line I found out is that anything on your wrist/fingers etc. Just can't
accurately tell which sleep phases you're actually in and the offsets are
huge, check the user reviews and research, they were comparing all the
trackers against a proper sleep lab.

So I decided for dreem2 and have been extremely happy, especially with the
deep sleep stimulation functionality, since I didn't buy it because I'd have
any sort of sleep issues.

~~~
cassianoleal
Ah yes, the stims are pretty great! I don't know if whether it's just placebo
or not but it definitely works for me!

------
solaxun
They are all garbage, without monitoring brainwaves you have essentially zero
useful information about sleep quality/duration/stages. No amount of
accelerometer/heart rate data is going to accurately reflect your sleep
stages, regardless of what marketing spiel you read.

For a brief time there was a consumer product "Zeo sleep monitor" which was a
legitimate EEG-style brainwave headband you would wear to sleep. From what I
recall, comparing it's results to those of in-lab sleep studies, it was fairly
accurate.

Sadly they went out of business as it was a fairly niche product and pretty
expensive.

~~~
scrollaway
The Dreem is the modern version of what you're mentioning.
[https://dreem.com/en](https://dreem.com/en)

~~~
solaxun
Wow I had no idea this existed! I checked for competitors a few years back and
there was nothing at the time, so this looks relatively new - and also quite
promising. I'm glad I clicked on this HN link, thanks for the pointer.

I fear they may follow the same course as Zeo at those prices though. For
typical consumers I would imagine only the most fervent "quantified self"
types are going to be comfortable spending $500 for sleep tracking.

I'm interested though :)

------
georgespencer
Girlfriend and I use Apple Watch with AutoSleep
([http://autosleep.tantsissa.com/](http://autosleep.tantsissa.com/)).

Not having to set anything up or say I'm going to sleep is perfect for us, and
the results seem to generally be in line with reality. I don't believe it
tracks restless legs. It's really comfortable with the sport loop band.

From the limited research I did a few months ago it seemed as if the
additional accuracy derived from a dedicated device was outweighed by the faff
of setting it up + the additional utility of a multifunctional Apple Watch /
Fitbit-type device. It felt like a single-digit % gain in accuracy over Apple
Watch, which had a huge % gain in utility.

------
cheshireoctopus
You might find that sleep trackers actually increase your anxiety around
falling or staying asleep.

I used [https://www.sleepcycle.com/](https://www.sleepcycle.com/) for a number
of years while suffering sleepless nights.

It seemed accurate...but I had no way of verifying the quality of my sleep. I
have heard this is difficult to do.

Eventually I got sick of paying the subscription and agonizing over my sleep
data.

I spent probably six months practicing sleep hygiene (consistent schedule,
limiting screen time, working out, etc) and removing myself from stressful
environments. I was eventually was able to return to a decent schedule.

I also found speaking with a psychologist to be helpful here.

Hope your sleep improves.

~~~
tobylane
I used this app for a few years but found it didn’t tell me anything I didn’t
already know, and that the most vital components to good sleep (time of start,
length of time asleep, activity the day before, mood) can be part of a habit
without needing the history.

------
eindiran
If you want to get into the habit of sleep tracking before you buy something
expensive and you have an Android phone, this is worth checking out:

[https://sleep.urbandroid.org/](https://sleep.urbandroid.org/)

Sleep for Android has some problems, but it has a free-tier and is easy to
start using.

For better sleep tracking, there are some mattress cover devices, which will
help with the leg movement problem a bit better than SoA can. The most common
one afaik is Eight:

[https://www.eightsleep.com/](https://www.eightsleep.com/)

~~~
Groxx
The two times I've tried "Sleep as Android", with different phones and watches
(including paired with watch, and ignored), it has produced such utterly
garbage data that I don't trust it one bit. Claims sleeping for hours, while
awake and walking around (which Wear / Fit detected as walking) (with watch
connected, phone has been fine here). Or missing sleep for hours (both watch
and not). Or claiming deep/rem cycles while it sits on my dresser (both watch
and not).

------
gwbas1c
One of the reasons I bought my Fitbit is to look at my sleep patterns. (In
hindsight, I only look once every few months)

The data is surprisingly accurate, and sleeping with a watch on doesn't bother
me one bit. (I use a silicon watch band, the dressier watch bands would
probably bother me.)

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
One great thing about a smartwatch is that you don't have to remember to put
it on before going to bed. Better yet if it's one of the models with a long
enough battery that you can just wear it and forget about it completely.

~~~
gwbas1c
I only take it off (and charge it) when I shower or go in the hot tub. The
battery lasts a few days, which is long enough for me to take it on 2-3 day
trips without charging it.

------
mft_
Can anyone recommend a good sleep tracker _with a smart alarm_?

I had one of the original Jawbone Ups, and it was great for this. Sadly, it
didn't last forever and now they're discontinued. I did a solid search about a
year ago and couldn't find anything that suited - essentially a sleep tracker
with a smart alarm that's not tied to a mobile phone, and _ideally_ with the
ability to wake via light as well as noise.

(I get that the Apple Watch offers options, but it never seemed sensible to
use a) use quite a bulky watch to sleep with, and b) choose a watch that would
ideally charge overnight, to capture sleep data.)

~~~
pergadad
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lslk.sleep...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lslk.sleepbot)

This one works great for me & is free.

------
DoreenMichele
A. I generally take my cheap Android phone to bed with me and check the time
before closing my eyes, then check the time when I wake up. For really rough
days, as backup, I will ask my sons if they know when I conked out.

B. Instead of tracking your RLS, I suggest you treat it. There are studies
suggesting that iron deficiency and B vitamin deficiencies can be culprits.
That helped with mine, though I have known other people who benefited from
other supplements.

C. I highly recommend you start a journal. A written record of health stuff is
a hugely valuable health management tool.

~~~
palerdot
Shameless plug: I created an app[0] just for this, which just tracks phone
movement as an indication for the sleep quality. i.e If you pick your phone
you are considered awake and just logs it. It is a completly offline app.

[0]
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sleepeasy](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sleepeasy)

------
s_dev
Sleep Cycle is pretty good. I have the iOS app.

They used to use movement but now use ambient audio to determine sleepiness.
It a suggestion worth looking at maybe not "powerful" enough but certainly
easy to use.

------
dcapo18
I use and recommend Whoop, it's a fitness tracker worn around the wrist that
focuses on sleep and recovery. They recently had their sleep tracking
validated against polysomnography ([https://www.whoop.com/the-locker/how-well-
whoop-measures-sle...](https://www.whoop.com/the-locker/how-well-whoop-
measures-sleep/))

------
joveian
I suspect keeping a sleep log is more accurate than most other methods,
particularly for anyone who has had a chance to calibrate estimation with a
sleep study. One exception might be trackers with electrodes like Dreem (I
have not tried it and like many it is a cloud thing that becomes completely
useless if the company goes away, which many have).

I find the accelerometer based trackers to be completely useless. I haven't
tried a combo pulse/accelerometer type that should be better but I am
doubtful.

I use a Contec CMS50I pulse oximiter on occasion in addition to the sleep log.
I can determine when I first get to sleep based on my pulse but otherwise it
doesn't help other than that I can tell when I take it off. My estimates of
when I get to sleep have always been close, although I'm guessing this might
not be the case for most people.

For the sleep log, I record when I get in and out of bed (rounded to 15
minutes), when I guess I get to sleep and wake up (rounded to 30 minutes),
time in bed, estimated sleep, any medications I took before bed, time I use
light therapy in the morning, and any notes I want to remember about how I
slept (or anything else since I don't otherwise keep a journal).

I'm not convinced sleep tracking is actually a good idea for most people (or
necessarily anyone as a regular thing). The negative of a sleep log is that
thinking about when you get to sleep and wake up enough to make a guess will
wake you up a bit. The trackers mostly don't seem accurate enough to be all
that useful. I'm not sure what most people would do with the information; it
seems mostly helpful to compare different sleep medication or practices or to
convince yourself that you are getting more or less sleep than you think. I
suspect that just writing down in the morning how well you think you slept,
how you are feeling, and maybe when you got in and out of bed might be at
least as useful as anything more elaborate.

------
danman1222
Hey y’all - I am a cognitive psychologist and entrepreneurs who had
scientifically validated all the best wearables with $3.5 mm in grant funding
from the national institute of aging and the National Science Foundation. We
are about to publish a paper that compares these wearables in the premier
journal Sleep.

Essentially the sensor capacity for all of them are similar, with the Apple
Watch slightly better than many of the competitors, the form factor for the
oura is best. We make an algorithm that runs on many of the devices using
Sonic Sleep and we found that our algorithm on Apple Watch performs the best.
The oura is good too for sleep wake. Biostrap is good for SpO2. You can also
buy a pulse ox that is less consumer friendly but accurate.

But DO NOT put too much value in the sleep staging. Current state of the are
is bad at this.

Sincerely,

Daniel Gartenberg, PhD

~~~
softwaredoug
Thanks. In my appointment today, my sleep doctor pointed out biofeedback
devices like Muse for optimizing meditation (to relax for sleep).

With such devices, is there a hope of portable EEG based sleep monitors?

------
rapnie
Are some of the suggestions FOSS and/or privacy-respecting?

~~~
abecedarius
There's an Android app called Gadgetbridge which is open source and keeps your
data local. I use it with an Android watch (I forget which one exactly). I
don't know how it compares in quality with the phone-home vendor app, since I
replaced that immediately.

[https://gadgetbridge.org/](https://gadgetbridge.org/)

------
frandroid
I'm surprised no one mentioned Sleep as Android yet... Super-integrated into
third-party tools (sometimes as paid extras)

------
canada_dry
I've been tracking my sleep quality via a DIY setup. I.e. an ESP32 plus two
mattress movement monitoring pads.

Each night I start the ESP32 recording the movement data from the 2 pads that
are under the mattress. The ESP32 has ADCs to collect the analog measurements
and sends the movement data to a debian based SQLite db wirelessly every
minute.

When I wake up, I register my perceived sleep quality (from 0 to 5).

I've been gathering the data for several months and plan to run it through
ML/scipy to see what insights I can glean.

The setup is very cheap - the mattress pads can be obtained for next to
nothing at thrift stores.

------
pedalpete
I currently use an Oura ring, which I like, but it only tells me how I sleep,
I'm looking for the data around WHY I didn't sleep well.

So I'm building an app (still in dev)
[https://withbliss.net](https://withbliss.net) in order to track my day and
activities so I can look for trends around what is affecting my sleep
positively or negatively.

Please sign-up and I'll drop you a note when the beta is ready. Shouldn't be
too long. Very keen to hear get this out quickly and get feedback.

------
JesseAldridge
I tried a few and I like Emfit's tracker the best:
[https://www.amazon.com/Emfit-QS/dp/B0158W3E2A](https://www.amazon.com/Emfit-
QS/dp/B0158W3E2A)

It's nice because it goes under your mattress so you don't have to wear
anything. The results seem to be accurate, at least when it comes to detecting
tossing and turning vs sleeping.

------
zigzaggy
I track my sleep with my Apple Watch (with an app obviously). I used Pillow
(app) for a while, but recently I switched to AutoSleep (and I'm happy with
the change). The app write up states that it tracks movement, but it doesn't
really deliver direct data about movement. I think it does track sleep very
well, and had allowed me to greatly improve my sleep health.

~~~
neo1691
I can vouch for Autosleep with Apple Watch too. much better than Pillow and
does the job well.

------
vicpara
I have a Garmin Fenix 6 Pro and I find it pretty accurate. I set the watch to
watch for sleep between 10pm and 8am. Recently with COVID-19 I've been going
to bed past 2-4pm. In the morning the first thing I do is check the sleep
stats. I find them very accurate. They correctly track my pit stop runs in the
middle of the night as well. Today I woke up at 11.43am and the watch got it
right. Interestingly after I wake up and lay in bed for a few more minutes,
while I'm still in bet, I also start to get bazillion of notification from
phone on my watch. I feel very confident about the watch's ability to track
the start and the end of sleep right. I cannot tell about the REM time but it
seems within the correct ball park. There were some rough nights where it
showed no REM at all. The truth is that I was pretty low energy in those next
days and not at my full potential. However, when the watch tells me I had >2h
of REM, I'm an energy bomb.

The body battery is another thing that is quite magical in indicating my
resources. Two days ago I found myself at 10/100 midday. At 4pm my
concentration and deep thinking ability was almost inexistent.

From the engineering perspective I noticed that the SP02 sensors attached to
the finger, to the smart watches and other devices tracking pulse, O2 and
heart functions they use pretty much the same technology to read the pulse,
blood oxygenation levels etc.

There is a lot of software and signal engineering that lays on top of the
sensor readings that differs on each manufacturer. To get these settle to
accurately predict REM and VO2 and other more advanced activity labelings they
do need a lot of data and iterations. Fitbit and the Apple watches went
through thousands of data points and they do seem to be miles away now.

So far I found that with each software update the Garmin Fenix is getting a
lot better at these predictions. Certainly for all these devices there is a
learning curve and we are quite frankly at the beginning of it.

~~~
seniorcardigan
I have a Forerunner 45 - concur on the body battery metric, not so much on
sleep. It often interprets me lying in bed as "sleeping" and recalculates my
sleep time through the morning - I can wake up and see that I slept 7 hours
then on my next sync with Connect later in the morning, it says 9 hours 49
minutes.

------
dguo
I keep a text log and add entries manually every morning. I add my best
guesses for when I actually fell asleep and when I woke up. I also log when I
woke up in the middle of the night and for how long.

I'm interested in using a device, but I'm skeptical of the accuracy for data
like how long my REM cycle were:
[https://www.menshealth.com/health/a26932734/sleep-
trackers-a...](https://www.menshealth.com/health/a26932734/sleep-trackers-
accuracy-pros-cons/)

For just knowing roughly how long I'm sleeping each night (and how consistent
my bed and wake times are), my text log has been good enough.

I'm not even sure I should be keeping track at all. As the article points out,
it may exacerbate sleeping problems by causing me to worry too much about
sleep in the first place.

------
narak
I agree with the posts saying most are of little to no value, maybe even
negative considering anxiety from monitoring. I think a decent proxy for
obstructions is a good pulse oximeter.

I would also recommend getting your vitamin D levels checked. The normal range
is far below what you should be at from my experience. 60-80ng/ml is an ideal
range ("normal" from my lab is anywhere from 30-100) from what I've read. Can
start supplementing and seeing if it helps.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22583560](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22583560)

~~~
fossuser
60-80? That seems high - I don't think you could be at that without taking a
lot of supplements every day.

I think 30 is the lab normal (and it was recently raised to 30 from 20) -
though a lot of people are below that when tested.

~~~
samatman
There's no guarantee that the optimum Vitamin D level is one that the skin can
synthesize under even optimal conditions.

It might be. But it could also be more.

~~~
fossuser
Sure - I’m just skeptical that the optimal level is one you could never get
without a lot of supplements.

Doesn’t mean that isn’t true, but I’d need more to be persuaded.

------
growt
I have a withings steel HR Sport (but the steel series are all the same tech).
It's nice as a smartwatch to discretly read notifications, but I wouldn't
recommend it as a sleep tracker. It's reasonable comfortable to wear at night
(like a watch), but the actual sleep tracking is lacking. Often the last few
hours get updated after I already woke up and picked up my phone. Also the
sleep-cycle alarm always goes of at the earliest possible time for me and I
can't figure out if thats the problem with the sync mentioned above or if I'm
just always in light sleep at that time.

------
bArray
A good heart rate sensor - If you're getting into REM you should see your
heart rate decrease, if not then you're likely not getting the benefits of
proper sleep.

I wake up a lot in my sleep, so generally I have been looking to reduce my
average sleeping heart rate through exercise, diet, sleeping positions, etc -
which has been quite successful. if you chose this route, remember to change
one thing at a time and leave enough time to measure the difference.

Another thing that could work is simply having a motion-detection camera. The
more time the camera spends active, the more you moved that night.

------
pergadad
I'm a big fan of this free android app:
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lslk.sleep...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lslk.sleepbot)

Among other features it records noises, cuts out all the no-noise moments and
you have a 3-5 minute record of all nightly noises in the morning. As others
have said here all the expensive gadgets are mostly random number generators
so I don't see the point in wearing one - this app had told me a lot about how
I sleep, what disturbs me, etc.

------
jxs8898
The best tracker is the one that fits your lifestyle.

If you don't mind charging devices, Oura ring is my top choice as it's the
most accurate wearable. Fitbit does a decent job if you're on a budget, but
the data is less accurate.

My personal favorite is set and forget, under the mattress - Withings Sleep.

The hard part is making sense of the data and determining what to do to try
and improve your sleep - getting a tracker won't simply improve your sleep.

To fix this issue I build SleepWell.ai, that takes sleep tracker data and
makes custom recommendations based on what sleep science has shown will
improve sleep.

------
Marioheld
I used beddit ([https://www.beddit.com/](https://www.beddit.com/)) a lot, but
since they were bought by apple there is not really any updates for app or
hardware. It works like withings sleep where you don‘t wear anything, but it
needs Bluetooth connection to your phone the whole night because it doesn’t
have any storage.

So I am not really statisfied with it. The app runs on the phone the whole
night and drains the battery, no smarthome features are built in and there is
always bluetooth sending data.

------
russellkt-al
I use Withings Steel HR and Sleep Cycle on an iPhone. Both provide useful
information but neither is perfect and often conflict. I think a lot of this
is due to a 4 year old that my wife and I have been unable to get to sleep in
his own bed. [https://www.marksdailyapple.com/should-you-track-
sleep/](https://www.marksdailyapple.com/should-you-track-sleep/) is a good
article with recent data on accuracy of a variety of devices.

~~~
russellkt-al
Realized I did not answer all of your points but neither tracks leg movements
that I'm aware of but like another post mentions sleep cycle might monitor
through sound. Biggest reasons I've chosen these are I have my iphone on
charge and airplane mode and the Withings battery life is between 2-4 weeks.

------
sys_64738
Fitbit Charge 3 can go a week between charges and is super small. I looked at
the Apple Watch but it's a bit of a joke for battery life being less than 24
hours. Pretty useless.

------
jacobwilliamroy
Do you feel tired? You didn't sleep enough.

Do you feel fine? You slept enough.

C'mon OP. What's a computer going to tell you that you 3-million year-old
endocrine system doesn't already know?

~~~
_nothing
Um, a lot of things?

A computer can give me clues as to why I still feel tired after sleeping for
10 hours every night. The right tracker can tell me what my oxygen levels were
while sleeping, or how restless I was during the night. It can estimate how
much time I spent in each sleep cycle, and identify anomalies in how much REM
sleep I seem to be getting, for example.

Many, many people suffer from various sleep abnormalities and insight into
their behavior while sleeping can be helpful for helping their conditions, or
at least giving them insight into what's going on.

~~~
jacobwilliamroy
These things are easy to investigate without a computer. Just eat something
new and see how you feel. Or open a window next time you sleep and see how you
feel. Sure, telling people to listen to their bodies probably isn't going to
"SCALE to 100X Venture Capitals" or whatever nonsense, but it's a very
accessible and effective way to remedy most sleep issues.

------
sershe
I had a great experience with original Zeo, at least as far as I can tell
timing and correlation-with-next-day wise. Unfortunately, they went out of
business and the headband battery is not (easily?) replaceable, so once that
ran out it became a fancy alarm clock.

I would be interested to know in particular if all the gimmicky trackers these
days even remotely approach Zeo in accuracy; I know for sure that, for me, the
"put your phone in bed" ones don't.

------
in9
I use a couple of apps in order to track my sleep. I have sleep apnea, so I
like to check how much noise I am making in a night. I use SnoreLab for that.

When I don't want to track snoring solely, I use Sleep Cycle, which tracks the
agitation of your sleep, and uses that to wake you up. The tracking info is
quite good as you can see the amount of rem sleep and where in the night that
happened. It is also good to perceive trends through time in terms of sleep
quality.

------
jobvandervoort
I've been using this one [0], which lays under your mattress and is
surprisingly accurate (have many night time wakings due to young kid). It
tracks movement, even heart rate and snoring.

You don't have to charge it, nor wear anything, which is why I got it vs. any
of the wearables.

[0]:
[https://www.withings.com/mx/en/sleep](https://www.withings.com/mx/en/sleep)

------
dbcurtis
Not a user myself. My wife loves her Oura ring. Super comfortable, with the
caveat that it doesn't come in ring half-sizes. My college-age kid uses an
older FitBit for sleep tracking and is happy with that.

I have no insight as to whether the Oura ring is going to give you restless-
leg data directly or indirectly, but it is extremely reliable for recording
other sleep disturbances in my wife's experience.

~~~
city41
I feel like my Oura is pretty accurate. The fact it's a ring makes it very
comfortable for sleeping, no issues at all.

FWIW, my sleep doctor says Oura rings are not accurate at all, but anecdotally
I don't agree with him.

I do find the Oura is terrible at tracking activity like exercising, it's just
wildly wrong. But for sleep it seems very accurate.

~~~
dbcurtis
Trying to divine exercise from accelerometer data is hard. My kid's fitbit
counted 2 hours of knitting as about 15 thousand steps.

------
reravel2
I had both generations of Oura. It was good for duration and temp, very bad
for stages or if I was awake I middle of night. I have had much better results
w Dreem headband. It uses eeg and some other sensors. It’s more expensive
though. (25 off YBVYPYSYY). It also has a sound it plays during deep sleep to
help extend it. I haven’t experimented with it yet to verify that it makes a
difference.

------
happyrock
I miss the WakeMate... it was the only sleep tracker that worked exactly the
way I wanted. Is there anything out there comparable nowadays?

------
Youden
In my mind there are 4 kinds of sleep trackers, differentiated by the kind of
data they collect. I've personally used a product from each of these
categories at some time in the past:

\- The kind that measure brain activity, like as Dreem or Philips SmartSleep -
these, in my experience are by far the most accurate and useful devices you
can buy. Dreem even has a self-run study comparing the devices to a proper
sleep study setup. They are however, quite expensive.

\- The kind that lays under/on top of the bed and indirectly measures heart-
rate, breathing rate and body movements. These are __okay __as far as accuracy
goes. They can 't directly tell you how your sleep is but they capture enough
indirect information that they can make a decent guess, at least regarding how
much sleeo you get. They're differentiated from the wrist-based trackers in
that they can detect any kind of body movement and they can measure your
breathing rate as well. They also don't require you to have a potentially
uncomfortable device strapped to your wrist.

\- The kind that you wear on your wrist like Apple Watch and fitness bands -
these, in my experience, are garbage. Like the under/over-bed devices, they
measure your sleep indirectly but unlike those devices, they capture less
useful information and require wearing a potentially uncomfortable device when
you're trying to sleep.

\- Smartphone apps - these, in my experience, are absolute garbage. They're
not sensitive enough to pick up any useful information about your sleep state.
All they can really do is tell you if you're moving or not. Maybe they can
pick up snoring.

If you're interested in accurately measuring your sleep state and catching
things like short periods of wakefulness or the precise amount of time it
takes you to get to sleep and wake up, I can't recommend Dreem enough. I've
owned one for over a year now and it's been spot-on every time. Since it's
attached to your head it takes a little bit of getting used to but I don't
even feel it anymore.

Since you say you're interested specifically in tracking your leg movements, I
think it's pretty clear that the on/under-bed trackers are appropriate for
you. Personally, I use an Emfit QS for the insane amount of data and analysis
it gives you but there are a number of other products like Withings. There are
also mattresses that come with the technology built-in.

I would never rely on a smartphone app or fitness band. They're better than
nothing so might be good if you happen to have one on-hand but I wouldn't go
out of your way to buy one for the purpose of tracking sleep.

------
Brakenshire
I don’t think there’s any indication that heart rate and movement monitoring
can provide any robust insight into sleep cycles, and in my experience
struggle to even understand sleep start and end points. Seems like you need to
go to a device with an EEG to get decent information, I’d be interested if
there were studies dealing with this question though.

------
fapjacks
BY FAR Sleep As Android (previously called like Sleep As Droid or Sleep Droid
or something -- it went through a couple of name changes a few years ago when
the founder made a company out of it). Developed by a team from Eastern
Europe, founded by a dude who was like a sleep science PhD of some kind. This
app changed my life completely. As someone with Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder
that has no underlying causes like organ failure or whatever, I spent most of
my life just thinking (and being told) I was a lazy shithead and a weird kind
of night owl. But this app helped me get a handle on it. The best feature for
me by far is the "smart alarm" which I can set to wake me up say, within an
hour of a certain time. Then using the sensors on the phone, my wearable, and
the Sleep Phaser bedside lamp they created in a Kickstarter (uses an infrared
sensor, works great), it can tell when I'm in a light sleep cycle and then
trigger the alarm. It has always been _really_ rough for me trying to wake up
at a certain time, but this makes it easy. The company seems super cool also.
I can't recommend it enough. Tons of tracking features, too (and cloud storage
if you're into that). They support a bunch of wearable hardware, but it works
great using only your phone.

~~~
fapjacks
Weird, I'm genuinely curious how this recommendation got a downvote.

------
lallysingh
A sleep number bed with the app tracks sleep quite well, and you don't have to
wear any sensors. I find it pretty accurate.

~~~
neverartful
I concur. Additionally, the bed automatically adjusts to your sleeping
position so it has a more active role in your sleep than just a passive
monitor.

------
surds
I have been using SleepWatch for a few months and I like it. Using the Apple
Watch, it can give me decent stats, analyze patterns and suggest things for a
better sleep cycle.

Given that a ton of people have recommended AutoSleep here, I will give that a
try as well and see which one seems to be better.

------
buzzdenver
As somebody who usually sleeps well, I'd love to have a dumb app that notes
when the last time I put my phone down and the first time I pick it up in the
morning. Maybe with an option to tell it how long I think it took to fall
asleep. Does something like this exist?

------
cglong
I wanted something that I didn't need to wear to bed, so I tried the
Beautyrest Sleeptracker Monitor. You place a sensor under your bed and it
automatically detects and tracks your sleep, heart rate and breathing rate
without having to open an app or anything.

------
ruthienachmany
If you'd like to dig into what's going in behind your chronic sleep issues,
feel free to sign up to join the beta here: jointherest.com. You can also
email me directly: ruthie@jointherest.com (I'm a certified sleep coach).

------
BigBalli
I've been using AutoSleep for Apple Watch (
[https://apple.co/3dwLIlg](https://apple.co/3dwLIlg) ) the past handful of
months. Accuracy seems good (especially compared to Pillow).

------
etrautmann
Autosleep app on the Apple Watch is perfect for me. Completely automatic and
accurate to ~5 mins plus info on deep sleep and heart rate. It only requires
the presence of mind to charge your watch another time rather than overnight.

------
syntaxing
I have a Garmin Vivoactive 4. I love it and it beats my Fitbit Versa in all
ways. It's nice since it tracks pulse ox and respiration on top of wrist
movement. Though I am not entirely sure how it would work for restless legs.

~~~
cbHXBY1D
I find Garmin watches superior to Fitbits in everything BUT sleep tracking.

------
cdg7777
I know it's expensive, but I recommend a proper overnight sleep study in a
Sleep Disorders Center it is way more detailed than the data you can get
yourself (I tried).

I even used a Trail Cam to film my movements :)

------
wfh_man
I used SnoreLab when people kept complaining that I snore, I thought they were
taking the piss but using it I found out that I only snore when I'm drunk
which was interesting.

------
samat
Withings Activite are great watches. You don’t need to charge them, just
change the battery once in 7 months and that’s it. They track my sleep quite
well.

------
Tomte
Leg movement is probably hard to track. I would think that the Withings Sleep
Tracking Mat might be working somewhat, but I have no first-hand experience.

------
dahfizz
I have found the built in sleep tracking of my samsung active 2 to be good.
Maybe you could strap the watch to your ankle instead of your wrist?

~~~
jerrytsai
I've found my Samsung Galaxy Watch Active2 to be hilariously incorrect with
estimating sleep tracking, and I miss my Fitbits for getting that measurement.

Example: on Sunday, I woke up, drove 20 minutes to a trailhead, proceeded to
strenuously hike for an hour, drove 20 minutes back. When I checked the sleep
log later that day, the watch had automatically assumed I had been sleeping
through the entire hike.

I like most other things about this watch, but sleep tracking is not one of
them.

~~~
dahfizz
Geez, that almost sounds like faulty hardware. Do you find it counts steps
accurately?

~~~
jerrytsai
The step counting seems to work reasonably well. At least, it's internally
consistent. The same workout or same route done multiple times results in no
more than 5% variation when counting steps.

But the sleep tracking has been awful. A lot of days I'll get up, sit in a
chair, and will surf the web for several minutes, say 45 minutes, and the
watch inevitably records this time as also sleep. It's quite ridiculous and
the software doesn't allow you to edit the log with the correct time. You can
only delete entries, not edit them.

~~~
dahfizz
Interesting. I've almost had the opposite problem - sometimes, if I wake up in
the middle of night my watch will stop recording sleep and record a new
sleeping session when I fall back asleep. So every once in a while I end up
with two sleep recordings for a single night.

------
blang
Have you tried iron supplements? The evidence I have on it is purely
anecdotal, but it really helped my son with his restless leg.

------
mikelyons
Sleep mask, softer bed, hot water bottle to warm your feet or warm the bed
before you get in, (or one of those electric blankets.

------
xutopia
I'll go ahead and say it. Sleep trackers are nearly useless. Most people don't
glean any useful information.

------
mdrachuk
I’m using Apple Watch + AutoSleep. I only trust the hours it registers though.

Whoop seems promising, but it’s too expensive for me.

------
hkiely
I thought my Fitbit did wonders at this task. I then moved to a Garmin - it
did just as well.

------
baby
I bought a smartwatch just for that and the result were completely inaccurate.

------
christiangenco
I've had debilitating sleep onset insomnia (1-2 hour sleep onset latency) for
my entire life, and I cured it with the Dreem 2 headband[1].

Unlike accelerometer-based sleep trackers (fitbit, Apple Watch et. al), the
Dreem 2 is EEG-based. I can't trick it into thinking I'm sleeping by just
holding very still.

Now I effectively get a free sleep study done on me every night, which is
AMAZING for N=1 randomized control studies on myself (ex: do I sleep better
with earplugs? an eye mask? how many days after a bad night of sleep do I feel
cognitive impairment? how much does blue light before bed affect my sleep
onset latency?). Clean data I could trust was vital to figuring out how teach
myself to sleep like a human again.

My most recent sleep report from Dreem says I've logged 181 nights wearing
this headband. It's amazing. It enabled the single biggest improvement to my
life in the last decade.

It's expensive, and it's so much cheaper than a sleep study that only measures
a single unusual night.

I've been tooting Dreem's horn on twitter for a while, so they gave me a promo
code that I think gets you 5-ish percent off: GENCO

I also recommend:

* a Manta sleep mask[2] and/or blackout curtains. Aim for pitch black if you open your eyes in bed at night. Cover any small lights in your bedroom with aluminum tape (it's light proof)

* silicone ear plugs[3]. They're actually comfortable, and you can sleep on your side without them jamming into your ear

* the Coup adjustable-loft pillow[4]. Your pillow is more important for bed comfort than your mattress (particularly your neck angle). While I'm on the topic: I'm not convinced mattresses matter nearly as much as people think. The best sleep I've gotten so far is on an ~$80 cot mattress from Amazon.

* if you sleep with a partner that sleeps hotter or colder than you, get a Chilipad[5]. Kicking your leg in and out to regulate temperature is keeping you from sleeping deeper.

Also, if you snore, that's called sleep apnea and you're suffocating while
you're asleep. Get that fixed immediately. You can pick up used CPAP machines
on craigslist for a few hundred dollars.

Also AMA about sleep here on on twitter @cgenco. This shit is really important
to get right.

I've got an article in progress better summarizing all this stuff that will be
live at [https://gen.co/sleep](https://gen.co/sleep) in the next few weeks :)

1\. [https://imgur.com/a/3FsK39j](https://imgur.com/a/3FsK39j) 2\.
[https://mantasleep.com/](https://mantasleep.com/) 3\.
[https://www.amazon.com/Macks-Pillow-Soft-Silicone-
Earplugs/d...](https://www.amazon.com/Macks-Pillow-Soft-Silicone-
Earplugs/dp/B003LZQGN6) 4\. [https://amzn.to/3dvoWKP](https://amzn.to/3dvoWKP)
5\. [https://www.chilitechnology.com/](https://www.chilitechnology.com/)

~~~
keenmaster
“[Dreem 2] enabled the single biggest improvement to my life in the last
decade.”

Awesome, can you elaborate? I’m interested in how they combine AI with EEG for
better sleep tracking. Also, have you experienced any discomfort from wearing
a headband full of tech all night?

The only health tracker I’ve really used is the Withings Smart Scale. Even
though it’s not super sophisticated and the non-weight measurements (like
muscle mass) are unreliable, it helps me keep my weight in check.

~~~
christiangenco
> I’m interested in how they combine AI with EEG for better sleep tracking.

I'm not super well versed in how this works technically. My understanding is
that even with raw EEG, accelerometer, and heart rate data it's not a
straightforward problem to figure out what stage of sleep you're in. From the
consumer side, I've just noticed a few patches they push down to my headband
with "improved sleep tracking" in the changelog.

> have you experienced any discomfort from wearing a headband full of tech all
> night?

Nope. I was already wearing ear plugs and an eye mask, so the headband is a
barely noticeable addition, even when side-sleeping.

~~~
keenmaster
It doesn't seem like a huge problem for ML to solve. Have someone wear a
consumer EEG headband and an expensive medical device which measures their
actual sleep state. Penalize the consumer device when its findings are off of
the medical device. If the consumer device is still inaccurate after many
iterations, add another input like a wristband with multiple sensors. Use both
the EEG band and wristband as inputs to the ML, and train the ML until it's
close in accuracy to the expensive medical device. In my mind, there just
_has_ to be some combination of easy measurable inputs that, together,
correlate very well with sleep state.

------
derek_frome
The WHOOP strap is the best I’ve seen and is very accurate.

------
rantwasp
fitbit or oura ring. not super accurate. it’s mostly to get some guidance and
more importantly it can help you form a sleep schedule

------
lihaciudaniel
Alarmy - Set your alarm with tasks that will drive. all sleep away from you in
those lazy mornings! Alarmy. World's most annoying alarm clock. Also has cool
graphic features

------
mke
_Almost everything will work again if you unplug it for a few minutes,
including you._

\- Anne Lamott

