

Leading Australian Telco storing data on behalf of US government - zzygan
http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/security-it/telstra-storing-data-on-behalf-of-us-government-20130712-hv0w4.html

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acqq
One commenter there wrote and I'd like to read some reasonable answer to that:

 _This is old news, obviously no one watched 4 Corners years ago – I think 15
– 20 yrs ago. I think it was about a program called Echelon. Remember the time
a New Zealander broke into one of those unmanned “Pine Gap” sites (in NZ) and
found mainframe computers downloading telecommunications data. Did we care
then?_

~~~
tnuc
Nobody cared then and nobody cares now, except for a few IT geeks.

In a 15 - 20 years from now the whole lot will have been mostly forgotten and
accepted as normal.

There and more important things in the politics such as gay marriage and
immigration. Try watching CNN or Fox News and ignoring technical sites. The
politicians want votes, they couldn't give a shit about your privacy.

Australia and the US have been keeping call records (number called and time)
for well over 20 years. I don't see how any of this is new(s).

Pine Gap is in Australia not New Zealand, not that anyone really cares. :)

And for the tedious people that want sources; Look up how General Patreus got
busted with his gmail. Look up the Tampa incident and see how Australia
listened into the telephone calls between the boat and Norway(or some such
country). There are loads of incidents that spell this shit out but I need
sleep and most people would rather watch a speech from Obama/Bush/Palin/Trump
than learn what their government is really doing.

~~~
mtgx
Is there any reason why privacy couldn't become an issue as big as gay
marriage?

I don't think so. People just have to want it as badly and fight for it.

~~~
chii
> Is there any reason why privacy couldn't become an issue as big as gay
> marriage?

many more laymen can understand gay marriage (whichever side of the fence they
are on) than privacy implications of massive surveilence.

~~~
swombat
I don't think so. We just need a compelling human story to make the average
person understand.

For example, "police militarisation" is a bit of an abstract idea, but once
you start telling stories of how the police broke in and shot the 8-year old
labrador who was sleeping on the couch, everyone gets it.

~~~
ihsw
There's already been a compelling story: the Stasi[1].

> By the 1970s, the Stasi had decided that methods of overt persecution which
> had been employed up to that time, such as arrest and torture, were too
> crude and obvious. It was realised that psychological harassment was far
> less likely to be recognised for what it was, so its victims, and their
> supporters, were less likely to be provoked into active resistance, given
> that they would often not be aware of the source of their problems, or even
> its exact nature. Zersetzung was designed to side-track and "switch off"
> perceived enemies so that they would lose the will to continue any
> "inappropriate" activities.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi#Operations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi#Operations)

~~~
swombat
The problem with that story is two-fold:

1) It's too abstract and distant. It feels like it screwed around with people
in weird ways in a different world to ours. Communist Germany does not seem
like a reasonable parallel to our society for most people. "It wouldn't happen
here" is a natural reaction.

2) Even though it's not that far off the reality of what could happen, it
sounds like an exaggeration, a bit like a Godwin Law condition. The fact that
it sounds like "Nazi" (and that probably some sizeable percentage of americans
have never heard of the Stasi and so will hear "Nazi" and repeat that) really
doesn't help.

What we need is a more immediate and tangible human story, something that
arouses sympathy and at the same time a clear realisation that "this could
happen to me".

------
damncabbage
Worse, a number of ISPs use Telstra's lines, eg. iiNet, Internode, TPG. I have
no idea if that agreement also covered others using the same cables.

(Telstra was government-owned until it was privatised from 1997-2000, and as
such has a monopoly on most of the phone lines; the government sets the
wholesale rates at which the lines are leased to other companies. Optus ran a
bunch of their own cables, but the coverage isn't nearly as extensive.)

~~~
daegloe
Still worse, as mandated by the Australian government, won't all internet
traffic eventually switch over to the new government owned/controlled FTTP and
wireless infrastructure of the National Broadband Network?

~~~
dcfindlay
In our area the NBN has gone up recently, and we've received letters saying
that the existing copper network will be decommissioned in a year so all
landline phone users will need to get an NBN connection. If the Aus govt is
baking intercept points into the NBN (not hard to imagine) then they'll be
able to intercept phone traffic as well, whether they get cooperation from
telcos or not.

~~~
daegloe
From what I understand, the government has required the telcos to sign
agreements forcing them to cooperate with the transition to NBN
infrastructure.

~~~
stephen_g
There's nothing like that happening. They are paying Telstra and Optus a
pretty good deal to migrate customers off legacy HFC and copper telephone
networks though. But no forcing is happening...

------
arjn
Note that Telstra was once owned by the Australian government. Recently their
stake was reduced to about 10% (according to wikipedia) but IMO the Aussie
government still dictates a lot of what Telstra can do.

~~~
xyzzy123
It is still a political project. We have to assume it's compromised, although
by friendly government.

------
dcfindlay
Interesting that nobody I've talked to over here seems to be that surprised
about the extensive data collection. A few people are annoyed about the
unaccountable way it's been done and the abuse of power, real or potential,
though.

It takes a lot to shake Aussies out of the "she'll be right" mentality, and we
don't have a Fourth Amendment to be violated like the US does.

I also fear that the aware, technically literate people here won't attempt to
move Parliament House on the issue, they'll just resort to stronger
encryption.

edit:grammar

~~~
voltagex_
Oh I dunno, a few well placed Murdoch headlines seem to do the trick. If only
he were on our side...

------
sev
Every time I try to explain the implications of privacy intrusion to friends
some always argue, "who cares, as long as you're not doing something wrong" \-
they also don't care about identity theft or anything...they simply don't
care. And I want them to care...how do I force them to?

~~~
acqq
Why do you think you have the right to "force" them?

Just explaining, only when they are interested to hear, and not giving theory
but the real-life examples is the only sensible advice. Of course, you have to
do _your_ homework first.

~~~
rustynails77
Do you remember the blue ribbon internet campaign back in the late 90s? At the
time, I went into Australian #irc channels raising awareness. I was assuming
that most Australians on the Internet (back then) were technically literate
and would care. I had quite a few people who said "go fuck yourself" in
different forums when I raised the issue. I hate to say it, but I do consider
many of my Australian bretheren to be "redneck" like, but not quite like the
"stereotype" you see in the movies. Hoping for the average Australian to "give
a fuck" is not going to happen.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Ribbon_Online_Free_Speech_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Ribbon_Online_Free_Speech_Campaign)

------
CPAhem
More detailed analysis and original documents
[http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/07/12/telstras-deal-with-
the-d...](http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/07/12/telstras-deal-with-the-devil-
fbi-access-to-its-undersea-cables/)

------
decryptthis_NSA
Big Telcos are at the mercy of big governments for anti-trust issues,
contracts so this is not a surprise. DOJ and FBI can cause them many
headaches.

This should bite them though when trying to buy foreign firms, cable links
etc. No rational and influential country would let them do it after these
leaks.

