
Pork's Dirty Secret (2006) - kqr2
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/12840743/porks_dirty_secret_the_nations_top_hog_producer_is_also_one_of_americas_worst_polluters/print
======
warfangle
Google Maps:
[http://maps.google.com/maps?q=tar+heel+nc&ie=UTF8&hq...](http://maps.google.com/maps?q=tar+heel+nc&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Tar+Heel,+Bladen,+North+Carolina&gl=us&ei=0h6OS_6rKo7rlAff77iLDQ&ved=0CA4Q8gEwAA&ll=34.747369,-78.838792&spn=0.005492,0.012156&t=h&z=17)

You can see clearly pictured one of the pink lagoons mentioned in this
article. If you zoom out a little, you see scores of them.

Edit: most of the fields you see surrounding them are producing crops that are
dangerous to eat due to their nitrate levels (according to the article)

------
_delirium
The detailed descriptions of the process in this article make for a sort of
fascinating train wreck. On the one hand, the sheer scale of the operation is
impressive. On the other hand, it seems to have this strange air of
shoddiness. When I think of factory farming, I tend to think of a future age
of hyperefficient farming, with cows milked by machines and everything
precisely regulated. But this seems more like an age of very dense farming
that is held together with duct tape and rusting bailing wire, not much of a
sci-fi vision. I mean, huge lagoons of pig excrement with trucks falling into
them?

~~~
warfangle
Absolutely. I think forcing these factory farms into more wholesome practices
might accomplish a few things:

1) More research into sustainable farming techniques 2) More research into
automation that makes these sustainable techniques feasible at a market cost

Unfortunately, the companies that can afford to do that research are too busy
using their money to genetically modify their crops and pump their livestock
full of drugs.

If the government forced these guys to cut back through sanctions, the
cheapest food might not be the most unhealthy anymore. Issues of environmental
and public health concerns are one area where I actually agree with stronger
governmental powers vs corporations - people won't vote with the dollars
because it's a) necessary to live and b) they usually live so far away from
the heinous conditions that they don't even know about it - or worse, don't
care.

~~~
bmj
I'm not sure it's possible for factory farms to change, especially when
raising animals. If you talk to someone who raises animals in a sustainable
way (if you don't personally know a farmer, read Joel Salatin), they will tell
you there is absolutely an upper limit to what can be produced sustainably. I
purchase all of the meat my family eats from a local farmer (who only sells
directly to consumers) and he said while he could easily double the number of
customers, he wouldn't be able to maintain the same practices (this includes
everything to what the animals eat--grass only in the case of ruminants--to
where the animals actually lived--all are pastured in the style popularized by
Salatin).

I could be old-fashioned and myopic, though. Maybe someone can figure out a
way to have the best of both worlds.

Regarding cost, I no longer worry about the amount of money my family spends
on groceries. Yes, we spend $5/pound for beef, and $2.50/pound for chicken,
but this is stuff we are putting in our bodies--it's what keeps us alive. I
feel that price shouldn't be the driving factor in what we eat.

~~~
toothcomb
You are forgetting the huge subsidies that further hide the real cost of meat
from the consumer.

Raising animals is such an inefficiant way to farm food, people seldom
question this. Unless you can't use the land for anything else. There simply
isn't enough land to go around.

~~~
ido
I know this is the situation in some fertile & densely populated countries,
such as the Netherlands.

In other places, such as here in Austria for example, nobody is going to use
the alpine pastures that cows graze on for growing anything else.

I am pretty sure it is the same in Switzerland and Bavaria, and probably other
mountainous regions such as in Japan and Greece (although the grazing
livestock in these places might not be cattle).

~~~
GFischer
Said alpine pastures don't allow for a large quantity of cows, though.

And you Austrians really have to care for the cows in winter (prepare some
sheltered and warm barns, with feed - I've been there, and was surprised at
how easy we Uruguayans have it with our cows)

------
malte
For everyone interested in this topic I strongly recommend "Eating Animals" by
Jonathan Safran Foer:

[http://www.amazon.com/Eating-Animals-Jonathan-Safran-
Foer/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/Eating-Animals-Jonathan-Safran-
Foer/dp/0316069906)

I became a vegetarian before reading this book, but reading it only made me
more convinced that to stop eating meat and fish was one of the best decisions
in my life.

~~~
dmm
Factory farming is terrible. I would recommend that anyone interested in this
find some local farmers and talk to them about how the raise their animals.

I can get local grass-fed beef for $4.50/lb that is from very happy cows.
Expensive as hell but pretty much an ideal food.

Federal regulations play a role in this too. Anybody other than a factory
farmer is at an immense disadvantage when it comes to meeting the often
arbitrary and pointless regulations.

Check out "Everything I Want To Do Is Illegal: War Stories From the Local Food
Front" by Joe Salatin if you're interested.

~~~
GFischer
Over here in Uruguay we have 18 million grass-fed cows (they live better than
many persons!), probably as healthy as any you have ever eaten.

Yet, we have quotas on selling to the US, because they have to maintain the
subsidies on farming (it doesn't make sense if growing cattle in the US is so
much more expensive). And the EU is way worse than the US in its subsidies -
I've seen cattle in Austria, it is VERY expensive to raise it there - of
course you want to maintain some local livestock for strategic purposes if
nothing else, but it is still extremely inefficient.

And I pay about U$ 1/lb for very good grass-fed beef :)

~~~
dagw
Tell me about it. I'm reading all these comments about 'expensive' beef at $5
pr lbs and simply shaking my head. Here in Sweden I have to pay double that,
and that's for the lower end. If you want a really nice cut, double or triple
it again.

~~~
prawn
In Australia, I regularly pay AUD30-35/kg for a decent cut of beef. I think
that's about USD12/lb or more. I'd love to be able to get good stuff for
$4.50/lb!

------
Hopka
It's also interesting what the company says in return:
<http://www.smithfieldfoods.com/RollingStone/>

~~~
mmaunder
If the article is incorrect then Smithfield can and should sue Rolling Stone
for libel. But they're not going to because it's true.

~~~
toothcomb
It's what they don't deny that still worries me. I was hoping that the family
being consumed by the lagoon was a non truth. I read it as tragic comedy
(shame on me)

~~~
astine
It's weirdly like that scene out of _the Jungle_ where the guy falls in the
lard pit and becomes part of the product.

------
sstone
There is an interesting documentary related to this: Food Inc.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqQVll-MP3I>

~~~
dzlobin
Everyone should see this, and read some Michael Pollan. FWIW Commercial pork
is absolutely tasteless and shouldn't be eaten anyway, look around your local
markets for some berkshire or other heritage pork, and discover what pork
really tastes like.

~~~
mattew
Everyone should vote with their wallets. I make a concerted effort to purchase
pork that has been raised in a sustainable and compassionate manner. I eat at
restaurants like Chipotle who care about the farmers that they do business
with. Where and what you buy is the way to change things.

------
nickpp
If you want to see the continuation in Eastern Europe (Romania):

[http://www.awionline.org/www.awionline.org/pubs/Quarterly/07...](http://www.awionline.org/www.awionline.org/pubs/Quarterly/07-56-04/07_56_4p1415.htm)

[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/06/business/global/06smithfie...](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/06/business/global/06smithfield.html?_r=1&ref=dining&pagewanted=all)

------
davidw
I like to eat pigs and live in Italy. Salsiccia and polenta is particularly
good, and I'd be happy to grill some up for any visiting hackers, served of
course with plenty of good red wine.

What's this got to do with Hacker News, in any case?

~~~
toothcomb
I think the article is fascinating.

It shows you how big operations can go wrong, if safeguards are not put in
place. The numbers here are mind numbing, this is collossal murder.

There has been a series of programmes on industrial modern farming on the bbc
recently in the UK. Which focussed on the best parts of technological
innovation in farming. Whereas this article exposes all that's wrong with
factory farming.

As an Englishman I find it hard to comprehend the scale of things in the
states. It horrifies me. The London circular felt huge to me, until I
witnessed a freeway. Now it appears small and the cars look like toys.

We had the BSE outbreak in the UK, which has led to a change in consumer
opinion. BSE was reportedly a result of canibalism. Recyling your outputs to
inputs is a nice idea, but it's risky practice.

There's no mention of the quality of life these pigs are living. My uncle used
to run a small factory pig farm in the UK and that was horrendous enough. That
put me off of pork. Later working at an egg farm ensured that, I no longer ate
eggs or chicken. There is something incredibly powerful about seeing things
first hand. Animals deserve a better life than that, they surely deserve to
see daylight.

The computer industry, has it's own issues with energy usage and pollution.
The silicon valleys are known for poisoning rivers. There are parallels here.
Consumeres need to be aware, to put pressure on industry. We can be ethical
consumers, we can vote with our wallets. We can speak out, against injustices
and barbaric practices.

Hacker news is full of talk about start ups and web entrapaneurs. Money is not
the be all and end all. There is a social and environmental dimension to every
business.

If the article does not shock you, or fill you with bile, then alas I feel
there is something inherently wrong with you.

I do not delight in discovering injustices, whether it's Ethiopian farmers
getting ripped off for the price of coffee or animals suffering. And I have a
compulsion to put these injustices right, if I can. Though sometimes our
impulses can blind our moral judgement.

I read a book that was published over a decade ago, that reported that every
one of North America's great lakes had been overly polluted. A lot of the
world's seas have been overfished, there are many dead zones, look on Google
Earth.

You'd hope that with the advancement of science and the freedom of knowledge
we could become a better race of people. This really saddens me. I believe the
hacker spirit, is one that aims for solutions (possibly perfection), and I
hope that that same spirit is well concidered and respectful.

~~~
davidw
> The silicon valleys are known for poisoning rivers.

Which rivers did "the silicon valleys" poison?

~~~
toothcomb
It was a metaphor, just google 'high tech pollution' or 'silicon valley
pollution' or similar phrase.

------
jeremymims
Around 10 billion animals are killed each year in the United States. It's a
truly astounding figure. Let's not kid ourselves that something unfathomably
evil is going on.

It's great that some people get their animal products from the sustainable
farm down the road. That is better. But let's also not pretend it even makes a
dent.

During World War II, about 70 million people were killed over the course of
the conflict (1939-1945). In just the United States alone, we will kill that
number of animals in less than three days. If you were to compare the entire
loss of American life in that war, it would take you about 20 minutes to
achieve in our factory farm system.

If you still don't see it as evil, animal agriculture is far and away the
number one source of global warming pollution
([http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?newsID=20772&CR1=w...](http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?newsID=20772&CR1=warning)).

~~~
dmm
Humans evolved eating meat. There is significant evidence that a diet high in
meat and saturated fat rather than the neolithic agents sugar and grains is
among the healthiest available.

Why is killing animals to produce food for people an "unfathomably evil"
thing?

~~~
danielmims
Humans did not "evolve eating meat." Yes, they began to eat meat relatively
recently, but only during winter periods after migrating into colder climates.
Even then, humans ate almost no meat when plant food was abundant, during
warmer seasons.

Anatomically the case for human herbivorism, or at least heavy-plant
omnivorism, is strong. Check it (I hope this formats okay):

    
    
          Meat-eaters: have claws
          Herbivores: no claws
          Humans: no claws
    
          Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue
          Herbivores: perspire through skin pores
          Humans: perspire through skin pores
    
          Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding
          Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding
          Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding [we're talking about actually sharp teeth, not so-called human “canine” teeth]
    
          Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly
          Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
          Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
    
          Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
          Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater
          Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater
    
          Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.
          Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits
          Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits
    
          Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains
          Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
          Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
    

_Source: A.D. Andrews, Fit Food for Men, (Chicago: American Hygiene Society,
1970)_

~~~
tedunangst
So humans don't have a single trait in common with predators? Humans don't
have eyes in the front of their head for good depth perception? Or did you
just pick a selection of facts to support one viewpoint and ignore anything
that contradicts you?

~~~
danielmims
I'm obviously not saying humans don't have a single trait in common with some
predators. Humans have blood, for example. Get over your indignation at being
challenged and think about what you say. That'd be nice.

To answer your question, these are simply the most clear-cut traits that are
present in herbivores versus omnivores and carnivores. The "front-facing eyes"
is an out-of-date meme from high school textbooks.

------
mike_organon
Why aren't some of these problems solved by property rights? The article shows
case after case of nearby property owners having what seem to be clear cases
of health problems and other property violations caused by the pigs. If there
isn't a causal link that can be shown in court, then we don't _know_ this is
the problem.

------
limist
As a vegetarian, when someone with science training asks me why I'm so, my
answer is, "The 2nd law of thermodynamics." This is the 2nd law writ large.

------
mike_organon
I recently saw the movie Temple Grandin, a bio of an autistic woman who works
with cattle. Her website concerns humane and efficient treatment of livestock.
Some fascinating articles. <http://grandin.com/>

------
Zarkonnen
This reads like Dante's inferno.

------
wanderr
I can't seem to find a free version online, but This American Life's TV show,
the episode called "Pandora's Box" is very eye opening. They go to a modern
pig farm and it's as disturbing and disgusting as this article makes it sound.

I thought it was very interesting that they had to scrub down before they
could enter for fear that they might introduce germs to the pigs.

------
cmars232
Mad max references aside, I wonder if anyone has seriously considered just
processing the waste into something useful. If they prevented some of of the
careless inorganic stuff from getting in there (batteries, wtf?) couldn't this
be an excellent source of fuel & fertilizer?

------
nosse
"The excrement of Smithfield hogs is hardly even pig shit: On a continuum of
pollutants, it is probably closer to radioactive waste than to organic
manure."

This made me go woooot!? Clearly an article written to raise emotions than
discuss anything serious.

PETA crawling to HN, scary shit.

~~~
danparsonson
Have a look at the other articles linked in the comments - perhaps they will
present the same information in a more balanced way for you. The subject under
discussion is very serious, even if this particular write-up of it does not
suit your tastes.

As an aside, did it occur to you that your post is written in the same style,
of one trying to raise emotions rather than discuss something seriously?

------
JulianMorrison
Time to make cell-cultured meat happen, I think. Given that the technology is
pretty close to possible, I think that treating sensate creatures as meat
factories has lost it defensibility.

------
4ensic
Oh, "pork" the noun, not the transitive verb. Darn.

