
Free Transit for Riders Under 18? In Paris, It’s Here - danso
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-03/why-paris-dropped-transit-fares-for-young-riders
======
jdeibele
Portland Public Schools and Tri-Met (local authority that runs the buses) let
high school students travel for free. That's because PPS doesn't provide
yellow bus service for students in high school.

One of my daughters did Tri-Met as a 7th Grader because it saved more than 30
minutes over the yellow bus. Taking the bus seems a lot less convenient than
driving most of the time but for her it was faster. I took the bus with her
the first day and she was fine after that. No bad experiences that I ever
heard of.

When we were in Japan, we saw many students of all ages on the trains.

~~~
fermentation
I wonder if (or hope that) filling public transit with kids would help
convince people to fund better and safer public transit systems.

~~~
nerfhammer
the yellow bus system is arguably the world's largest public transit system
and is something Americans don't realize other countries don't have

~~~
arkitaip
Sweden uses both private and public transportation to transport kids
(skolskjuts) who live far away from school and it's free by law. In Stockholm
most kids simply get an electronic smart card that allows them to use all
public transportation as they see fit within school hours. Again, it's free
for students who live beyond walking distance (and according to other needs)
from school.

------
Digory
Surprised no one has mentioned Kansas City’s free transit on streetcars and
busses. I think it’s the largest city with entirely no-fare transit.

At some point, free Uber /Lyft would be a better deal. But transportation-as-
a-basic-service seems to be catching on.

[0] [https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/12/17/21026425/kansas-
cit...](https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/12/17/21026425/kansas-city-free-
bus-system)

~~~
mumblerino
As far as I know there’s also Luxembourg:
[https://www.afar.com/magazine/luxembourg-launches-worlds-
fir...](https://www.afar.com/magazine/luxembourg-launches-worlds-first-free-
public-transit-network)

------
boulos
San Francisco has a means-tested variant instead [1] with the same thresholds
for both children (5-18) and seniors (65+ here). Children under 5 are free.

I think you can quibble about means testing, barriers to application, and just
“do it through taxes”. Amusingly, we’re quite similar to Paris in that the
SFMTA “farebox recovery ratio” (fare revenue divided by costs) is in the 25%
range [2].

That low funding rate (75% through taxes then) is despite fairly large
increases in the fare over time. IIRC, the youth / senior Pass was $10 in 2007
and is now $40, the regular was $50 and is now... $81 (and set to increase in
January [3]). Somewhat rationally, it seems this was all connected to indexing
the fares to Bay Area inflation [4], designed so that salary of the drivers
keeps up with inflation.

Like Paris though, we have (had) a large tourist contingent that pays full
fare when visiting. Some argue that “they’re not taxpayers, make them buy
tickets”, but it seems more efficient to just account for that in hotel taxes.
Otherwise you never get out of the fare collection inefficiency (in San
Francisco, drivers on buses must also be fare enforcers, historically leading
to it being a dangerous job) and again it penalizes people who don’t know to
apply for their free passes they’re entitled to.

[1] [https://www.sfmta.com/fares/free-muni-
youth](https://www.sfmta.com/fares/free-muni-youth)

[2] [https://www.sfmta.com/reports/muni-farebox-recovery-
ratio](https://www.sfmta.com/reports/muni-farebox-recovery-ratio)

[3]
[https://www.google.com/amp/s/sf.curbed.com/platform/amp/2020...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/sf.curbed.com/platform/amp/2020/4/22/21231004/sfmta-
muni-fare-increase-coronavirus-covid-19)

[4] [https://sf.curbed.com/2019/6/19/18691884/muni-price-
inflatio...](https://sf.curbed.com/2019/6/19/18691884/muni-price-inflation-
sfmta-fare-hikes-double-2009)

~~~
supernova87a
I thought what people in SF do is simply not pay the fare, to the tune of
probably 1/3 of the people on the bus. Just like, by the way, in Paris. It
seems turnstile jumping is a professional sport there.

I'll just add by the way (since apparently I'm being downvoted for speaking a
snarky comment), that fare enforcement seems almost non-existent in both SF
and Paris. Something about it being too expensive or dangerous to actually
make people buy tickets. But policing your rules is an important thing for
having people believe in the system, as unpopular as it may be. And maybe how
safe/trustworthy the system is. Which neither SF nor Paris are shining
examples of.

~~~
GaryNumanVevo
Public Transit is supposed to be for the public good. With a %25 fare recovery
rate, turnstile jumping is a non-issue as the service (in SF and Paris) are
designed to be a service, not a business

~~~
supernova87a
So with that logic, why not just make it free for everyone?

If there are rules, enforce them. Don't make the law abiding pay and look the
other way for the ones breaking the rules.

~~~
kergonath
> So with that logic, why not just make it free for everyone?

Why, indeed? This is a logical conclusion.

------
specialist
100% free transportation. Buses, highways, rails, subways. Everything free all
the time.

Let the travelers decide for themselves how to spend their most precious
resource: time.

Read Caro's The Power Broker.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_Broker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_Broker)

TLDR:

Post WWII, NYC's Robert Moses figured out how to exfiltrate money from the
public (subways, buses, rail, autos) and leverage that cash flow to finance
his major works projects, thereby funneling capital back to bankers, realtors,
developers, contractors. Every other jurisdiction followed his lead. Resulting
in today's terrible land use and congestion.

Sure, Moses had help. But he was the criminal mastermind. He orchestrated the
wholesale theft of our time, our money, our precious open spaces, our health,
our homes, our natural resources.

We have no moral obligation to keep paying for his crimes.

~~~
clairity
> "100% free transportation. Buses, highways, rails, subways. Everything free
> all the time."

that sounds like a great way to externalize a lot of negative consequences to
counter one known corruption problem.

just stop subsidizing oil & gas, including through regulatory capture, and
price travel explicitly accounting for comprehensive cost. price in the
externalities through multiple measures, like a carbon tax, a use tax, etc.,
and use those proceeds to counteract the negative externalities.

~~~
specialist
10 years ago, I would have agreed with you.

Alas. We no longer have the luxury of incentives, incrementalism, and relying
on emergent behavior. We need aggressive policies and massive investments.

And I'm fresh out of both patience and goodwill.

Today, I agree 100% with Saul Griffith, David Roberts, and a handful of
others. Here's two example action plans that I support:

How to decarbonize America — and create 25 million jobs

[https://www.vox.com/podcasts/2020/8/27/21403184/saul-
griffit...](https://www.vox.com/podcasts/2020/8/27/21403184/saul-griffith-
ezra-klein-show-solve-climate-change-green-new-deal-rewiring-america)

The US South could save money by cleaning up its power grid

[https://www.vox.com/energy-and-
environment/2020/9/1/21407275...](https://www.vox.com/energy-and-
environment/2020/9/1/21407275/duke-energy-southern-company-renewable-power-
solar-wind-market-competition)

------
spodek
I'm 49 and for as long as I can remember, every American that knew economics,
when talking about France and Japan, would say the nations would fall apart
economically soon and would have to reform to market-based approaches -- less
social safety net, less worker protections, etc. Decades pass and while France
and Japan have their problems, they seem to do okay. The US seems to have more
problems despite (because of?) its approaches.

~~~
jokethrowaway
I can't talk about Japan but, having visited France and Paris extensively,
living in Paris is my number 1 nightmare.

Terrible housing, terrible traffic, tons of homelessness and dodgy people
harassing you in the street (trying to sell you drugs or scam you). The
situation got progressively worse over the last 10 years.

Other big cities have similar problems.

The rest of France, outside of the main cities, is actually quite nice but
incredibly rural and with very little services. And all of this for 33%
corporate tax and progressive income tax 5-40%. You'd be better off crossing
the sea and staying in the UK, which is much more livable and offers some tax
benefits and higher salaries.

I place the USA a bit higher than France in the chart, but not much more. The
high level of taxation and the high cost of health insurance + political
craziness going on (the latest BLM riots especially) makes me happy I stayed
in Europe, despite missing out on half a million salaries in big tech.

In the end I can't say I find France approach to be much different than the
American one: it's the old take half of the economical output and redistribute
it. The USA may not have public healthcare but they spend more than enough (13
billions per day) maintaining a public army, handing out benefits or what
else. I find it ridiculous to picture the states as the land of freedom. That
was more than 100 years ago.

~~~
kergonath
Having lived in both Paris and London during the last decade, I can’t really
agree with your observations. Taxes in France and the U.K. are very comparable
for the middle class down: ~20% for national insurance and ~10% for income tax
vs something much more complicated, but which amounts to about the same.
London is great, but Paris is actually very similar in most respects (though
quite different culturally). But when you step outside the capital, inequality
is much worse in the U.K. Other cities in England really aren’t that nice
compared to, say, Strasbourg, Lille or Lyon. And the trains fall apart so
getting anywhere is a pain in the neck. And broadband is rubbish.

------
BrianHenryIE
Sacramento has free transit for under 18 too:
[https://rydefreert.com](https://rydefreert.com) (I'm think it's being renewed
for this year)

------
ksaj
In Toronto (Canada) our transit is free for those 12 and under. At first it
caused a fair amount of fraud because adults were using the kid's passes. Easy
enough to get around: kids don't need to use passes now, either. There are
Proof of Age cards for the kids who look older than 12, though. Adults can't
usually take advantage of that, so apparently that has solved the problem.

------
DickScarington
Chapel Hill, North Carolina - millions of fare-free bus trips since 2003.

And we've finally started to see interest in adopting fare-free in Durham and
Raleigh.

------
shahsyed
18 is great.

This concept itself, is not new. I'd love to see US cities with notorious
transit systems (i.e New York City) implement this.

In Toronto, Canada, where I live, allow all children 12 years of age and under
to ride the TTC (our transit system here) for free.

This is great, because it enables students to enroll in public (elementary or
middle) schools that they normally shouldn't be able to get into (if they win
the lottery, or if they apply well in advance and somehow do get in), and
gives opportunities to students that they normally wouldn't have access to.

~~~
mellavora
In Luxembourg, ALL public transport is free for everyone.

~~~
ChuckNorris89
Yes but Luxembourg is a small, wealthy, homogeneous country _(cough, tax
haven, cough)_.

Bigger countries can't afford to do that as their infrastructure costs are
higher.

~~~
bleepblorp
What do you mean by 'homogeneous' here?

This word has a long history of being used as a racist dog-whistle in
discussions over why the US lacks public services.

It's not a good term to use without clarification.

~~~
opportune
Agreed, I have no idea why racial/cultural homogeneity is an argument against
public services. It has always seemed to me to be a roundabout way of saying
“We can’t do it in the US because minorities would ruin it”

~~~
throwaway5398
The most comical thing is when the same people argue that countries like
_Canada_ or _Switzerland_ have homogenous populations.

------
DickScarington
Chapel Hill, North Carolina - millions of fare-free bus trips since 2003.

Finally getting Durham, Raleigh and GoTriangle to consider the same.

------
agumonkey
Let's see how this goes, I can see a lot of time saved from chasing kids
without tickets. Albeit Parisian kids are not the poorest of this region but
still, I think it's gonna be a systemic bonus.

------
bleepblorp
Not good timing.

Encouraging people to ride transit during a pandemic isn't a particularly
bright idea.

~~~
Barrin92
Japan is dominated by public transit and is one of the countries least
affected by it. Transit is not unsafe when people follow distancing procedures
and wear masks / don't talk loudly. This was backed up by research

 _" It’s a similar situation in Japan, where researchers failed to connect a
single cluster to the country’s commuter trains, said Hitoshi Oshitani, a
virologist and public health expert at Tohoku University. The vast majority of
the clusters were instead traced to gyms, bars, live music venues, karaoke
rooms and similar establishments where people come in close contact with one
another,"_

[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/there-is-
little-e...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/there-is-little-
evidence-that-mass-transit-poses-a-risk-of-coronavirus-outbreaks/)

~~~
closeparen
The only indoor environment comes close to an average BART commute as far as
human density is the center of the dance floor in a nightclub at capacity.
Japan is famously even worse. How is that not close contact?

~~~
fomine3
People in train don't talk.

------
gregoriol
This might be kind of "unfair" for under 18 people living in smaller towns or
in rural areas: they must have a car or motorbike to do everything, which is
expensive (purchase, gas, repair); while transport is not very expensive in
Paris to start with (~80€ per month adult price).

~~~
Barrin92
Which gives a proper incentive for people to urbanise, which is a good thing.
Not to mention that Paris is also one of the principal sources of public
revenue to begin with.

~~~
MayeulC
> which is a good thing

Well, no offense, but things aren't that Manichean in my book. There are
upsides and downsides to urbanisation. Obviously, public transport is an up in
most cases, but there are also a lot of downsides.

~~~
Barrin92
a lot of rural or provincial towns in Europe are in terminal decline for many
reasons, but chief among them demographics.

My family comes from a very rural German village. There is no economy, there
isn't even a physician any more since the last one retired, everyone commutes
over an hour to work in the next big city etc, and this is systemic.

Some people may not see it that way because it's always painful to uproot ways
of life but I think the case for the prosperity of those regions is virtually
impossible to make, and it's getting worse steadily.

------
bzb5
I live in a small town. They made transit free for people above 65 which means
buses are all day full of old people basically joyriding. It’s quite
depressive, buses have essentially turned into old people’s homes on wheels.

Given the demographics of Paris, I wonder if this will make the transit system
the dream of pickpockets.

~~~
jmercouris
What's the depressing part exactly? That old people are going out and about
and enjoying their days?

~~~
bzb5
It is sad that they have no other options for leisure than to abuse the
transit system.

~~~
liability
Better for it to be out if sight; out of mind? Free transit didn't cause the
elderly people you describe to be bored, it only exposed that reality to you.

