
Systemd v227 - vezzy-fnord
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2015-October/034509.html
======
creshal
Am I the only one who _likes_ systemd?

No more problems with overflowing logfiles, no more debugging undocumented
shell scripts for booting, no more writing init scripts, no more debugging
undocumented 200+ line init scripts, no more minute-long boot delays, no more
brittle, half-assed distribution-specific networking solutions (also
undocumented shell scripts), ...

For me as sysadmin, systemd solved a _lot_ of long-standing problems, while so
far introducing no new ones.

~~~
pmarin
What kind of unix sysadmin can't understand 200 línes of shell code which most
of it is just boilerplate code?

~~~
vacri
What kind of unix sysadmin doesn't like turning 200 lines of code into 10
lines of code :)

~~~
reactor4
200 lines of code into 10 lines of configs

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nailer
I really like systemd. My blog has a 10 line .service file. My app has a 10
line .service file. My load balancer has a 10 line service file. They're way
less brittle than bash scripts would have been. Stdout automatically becomes
logs with the service name attached. It's nice.

~~~
vezzy-fnord
OpenBSD:

    
    
       #!/bin/sh
       daemon="/usr/local/sbin/daemonx"
       . /etc/rc.d/rc.subr
       rc_cmd $1
    

Though, it's Korn shell, not Bash, I suppose.

Reliable per-service logging was largely perfected by multilog.

Judging complexity by observing external configuration is nonetheless
exceptionally naive. One must factor in how the key-value pairs are built into
an internal representation and dispatched, which is where things become an
issue. Non-deterministic boot order (man 7 bootup) is one of many undesirable
trade-offs.

~~~
justizin
> Non-deterministic boot order (man 7 bootup) is one of many undesirable
> trade-offs.

Yeah, also something I found annoying with Upstart's induction into Ubuntu.

A predecessor at a place I worked at with a huge amount of traffic installed
Ubuntu 9 on all of our memcache servers, and we found on a handful of other
machines installed with Ubuntu 9 that non-deterministic boot order would
randomly cause them to fail booting, and it was a coin-flip whether that would
be a one-off problem or a forever problem requiring a reinstall.

When you have 4 8GB machines (this was some years ago) powering memcache for a
billion requests a day you don't really want a power cycle to cause 25% cache
misses for hours as you wrestle with hardware and boot config. :/

~~~
vezzy-fnord
Upstart doesn't have a formal dependency system, instead it orders things
based on named preconditions and postconditions called events. Though these
can be used to fulfill ordering requirements, I'd wager the information wasn't
granular enough for parallelization to be efficient.

Actually the main problem is that a lot of modern systems do not make their
dependency graphs well observable, but instead treat them as in-memory
ephemera that are constantly recalculated and cannot e.g. be written to
persistent storage as known-good checkpoints.

This is one area where s6-rc gets it right. You have to compile a manifest of
your service dependencies and consistently boot from that well-known state, so
for any changes it must be regenerated.

serel was an earlier example of a service dependency system and parallel
launcher which directly had you specify the nodes and edges of a directed
graph as an RDF manifest. Clever.

------
carlosrg
PSA: Beware people running Debian Unstable and possibly other rolling release
distros, lightdm seems to fail with 227. Be ready to downgrade if needed.

------
ck2
I'm expecting SystemDos any month now.

Let's see he can take over cron and make it 10 times more complicated... what
else is left...

~~~
dijit
They have a bootloader now. I'm sure this is very beneficial for certain types
of people.. my developer friends who are becoming sysadmins by way of 'devops'
like systemd quite a lot.

Me? I've gone to freeBSD for personal things; until Apple successfully pushes
launchd upstream..

If you want to see how far spread systemd is actually becoming install arch
linux using the official guides.. it's very easy to set up- but you definitely
can see how it's "everything that isn't linux that your computer needs to be
functional"\- I'm sure they'll have a wayland fork in no time.

~~~
simoncion
> They have a bootloader now.

The systemd people have a Grub/Grub2/LILO replacement!?

Would you be so kind as to link to details? :)

~~~
creshal
gummiboot has been integrated as reference implementation of systemd's
bootloader interface.

It's (unsurprisingly) much simpler than GRUB2 (as is every other bootloader in
past, present, and presumably the near future).

------
JdeBP
I did enjoy that the mention of it being policy to avoid unnecessary
abbreviations was immediately followed by two unnecessary abbreviations of the
word "compatibility". I suspect that to have been deliberate. (-:

------
eloy
[http://syste.md](http://syste.md)

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rodgerd
Quite an interesting update. Good to see ripping and replacing of code with
external deps where needed, and exposing some more kernel functionality
(around cgroups especially).

Pity the comments are largely the usual moronic and entirely non-technical
nonsense that infests the topic at HN. Sub-reddit commentary quality.

~~~
vezzy-fnord
_Pity the comments are largely the usual moronic and entirely non-technical
nonsense that infests the topic at HN._

I'd think I and others have been trying to inject some reasonable commentary.
Any objections, or are we out on a political vendetta as is usual with
systemd?

~~~
rodgerd
Perhaps I missed it amongst the reasonable commentary about the "millions of
lines of insecure code" or the SystemDos snark?

