
Ask HN: Is anyone else living this depression cycle? - sabiriwa
You find something you love (coding, in my case), you get a &quot;decent&quot; job in the industry. You hate your job. You get depressed.<p>Then, you quit your job. Just to find out the next one is as meaningless as the previous one - with a company and colleagues who don&#x27;t share your values.<p>You aren&#x27;t good enough to land a job in one of the cool companies you admire. You think about improving your skills but, then, your life is basically spending 20 hours per day just for work, sleeping, and commute. You have 4 hours left for cooking, family, friends, house cleaning, improving your skills. People tell you aren&#x27;t trying hard enough. You feel shitty, guilty, and even more depressed.<p>You think about quitting your job, create your own company, do something you&#x27;re passionate about and that will help other people. But you realize your savings would be enough to cover only two months without working.<p>You spend nights without sleep, develop simple prototypes, show them to investors. They praise your idea but tell you the prototype is too simplistic and, if you really believe in your idea, you should work full-time on it.<p>You make a whole plan for quitting your job. Thinking about becoming a homeless for a few months but you give up. You aren&#x27;t strong enough.<p>You ask your friends for help. But they don&#x27;t understand how a software engineer doesn&#x27;t have some savings. You look back to all the money spent helping your family (who is poor and live in a developing country). You could ignore them but you&#x27;re too weak, too soft. You feel shitty - and more depressed again.<p>Then, you tell how you feel to other people. They whine about your whining reminding you how shitty you&#x27;re for complaining about life, reminding you how weak you are. And, guess what, you get more depressed again.<p>This cycle keeps repeating itself until you see yourself sitting on your bed with a bunch of pills thinking about killing yourself.<p>Is anyone else living this same depression cycle?
======
resource0x
> You aren't good enough to land a job in one of the cool companies you
> admire.

This item is a key to your whole depression cycle IMO. And this is exactly
where you are mistaken. There's a great chance that cool companies you admire
do not deserve admiration; you will see it as soon as you get there, and will
become even more depressed. Please remove this item from your system of
axioms, and you will feel better already. There's nothing meaningful about
programming job, period. But it's (in most cases) something you can tolerate.
Don't overwork, convince yourself that your salary is quite decent for the
effort, and suddenly - you have time left for cooking, family, friends, house
cleaning, improving your skills. Please tell me why this is not a good plan
(Full disclosure: I decided to stick to the same plan years ago, and think it
was a really good idea :)

~~~
anxiouspete
I did exactly this. Joined a big US tech company that I had put on a pedal
stool for years. It's nothing like I imagined. Code is poor, documentation is
poor, office interaction is poor. It's thrown me into this place of depression
and unfulfillment that I don't know how to get back. Every day I go to work
and think "is this what working at one of the best tech companies is meant to
be like?".

------
charlesdm
So, programming got less fun for me ever since I started doing it for money. I
hated my job in pretty much exactly the same way you describe. But I have
loved technology and building things ever since I was a few years old (Lego,
etc)

Then I quit my job (after a year) and went independent. I (eventually, not
overnight) built an app that did moderately well, while sustaining myself
through contracting revenue, and made a nice chunk of money from that. Not FU
money, but enough to sustain me for a long time if I invested it well and
didn't spend through the roof. And then I built another, and another.

Everyone is different and I get where you're coming from. The reason I'm
telling you this is because I love what I do again. I have helped out my mom
when she needed it. I have freedom in life to do what I want, when I want it.
I love cooking and spend a proper amount of time each day doing it. And I love
the users of my apps that reach out to me because they enjoy using it. A good
day of work is 4 to 6 hours of productive work.

Also: you're not weak for helping out family -- call me crazy but I would give
the people I care about a free monthly stipend if I could. People care too
little about others.

Also 2: You should stop reading startup stories and Techcrunch, as they're
mostly bullshit. Investors included. If you want to take control of your life,
focus on small things or products you can build in a short amount of time
(e.g. like a plugin, a library or an app). Not going to go too much into
detail, but I built one app a few years ago in a week that grossed close to
$50k. Then there was another I built in a month that did $X00k+. Then I spent
six months on a SaaS which made me exactly $10. I'm definitely not the
smartest or most commercial guy around.

Life isn't always easy, but please, don't kill yourself. It can definitely get
better.

~~~
nicolashahn
Where did your ideas for these plugins, libraries, apps come from?

~~~
conesus
Stay curious and well read and ideas will come to you. Well read, to me,
implies reading about advances in tech, in culture, and in environment.
Reading a lot of books is great for synthesizing crossovers.

~~~
mathinpens
reading books is one of the essential pleasures in life also so it is always
good advice

------
zer00eyz
Im going to tell you a secret. Go to work every day, put in your 8 hours and
don't give a shit about your job after that. Crunch time, not my problem.
System fell over, not my problem. More work than one person can don in a week,
not my problem.

If they fire you (and they might) find another job. Programers are in demand
ALL OVER.

You don't want to get promoted, you don't want to climb the corporate ladder,
you want to launch your own product while you still send money home.

And as for launching, well just launch. Just keep building and adding features
-- don't market out of the gate but GO LIVE and be very public about what your
working on and how it is coming (blog a paragraph or two a few times a week)

That work is on your resume now, it is part of who you are, and might be
something someday but doesn't have to be something tomorrow... your creating
for yourself.

~~~
flukus
> put in your 8 hours and don't give a shit about your job after that

Also, don't give a shit during those 8 hours. Sure do the best you can, but
don't be tempted to refactor the code base, just change the bits that are
required to get the job done. If the company give two shits about code quality
then they would designate time to improve it.

------
combatentropy
> You look back to all the money spent helping your family (who is poor and
> live in a developing country). You could ignore them but you're too weak,
> too soft.

Wait a minute, I feel that's a success. If you're "too weak" to blow past your
conscience, "too soft" to harden your heart, then I think that there is still
hope for you. Don't aspire to be a rich person who left his family in the
dust.

------
metabagel
Beware thinking traps.

[https://www.anxietybc.com/sites/default/files/ThinkingTraps....](https://www.anxietybc.com/sites/default/files/ThinkingTraps.pdf)

Think about how you can be content right now, exactly as things are, or maybe
by changing only few small things. Slow down, breathe, appreciate the little
things, give yourself a break.

~~~
mathinpens
Thanks for posting this - I've been very anxious today about some stuff I
havent implemented and this is making me feel better

~~~
metabagel
I was very depressed for a couple of years, and I am very content now. Here is
what helped me. Your mileage may vary, of course.

First of all, the national suicide hotline is there for you if you should ever
need it. 1-800-273-8255

I saw a psychiatrist. Therapist is also an option for you.

Sertraline (Zoloft) or other SSRI may provide some 'distance'. I find it
helpful.

Shamatha meditation and Shambhala meditation center provides mindfulness and
community for me.

Make regular exercise a priority.

Make getting a good night's sleep a priority every night.

Slow down. Try to avoid overextending yourself. Learn to say "no" sometimes.
Turn off the phone, TV, and computer when possible.

Good luck! Take care of yourself! :-)

~~~
mathinpens
This all great advice :) I also find taking long walks with zero technology
and just thinking about things

-makes me feel much better -relaxed -helps recovers the joy of thinking deeply

I don't think I'm depressed- but I feel like my highs are very high and my
lows are very low

Thanks for the advice

~~~
ssijak
That could also be bipolar.

~~~
mathinpens
Very possible. I sorta think this might just be part of being a phd student in
computer science.

------
xupybd
"You're too weak, too soft, too whinny, shitty for complaining about life"

STOP! DO NOT INDULGE IN THIS SORT OF THINKING.

You are strong, you can get past this.

None of use live up to our hopes and dreams, not a single damn one of us.
Depression feeds itself. The negative thoughts offer a strange short term
comfort. But they are lies total bull crap that isn't any use to anyone.
You've gotta shut them down when they come up. Congratulate your self when you
do shut them down.

I know when your depressed nothing feels good, nothing feels like it's
working. But look for reasons to congratulate your self, force your self to
note the things you did achieve. Maybe you're so down you can't get out of
bed. Well plan to get out of bed for an hour, celebrate when you do. Yeah it
wont feel great it won't fix anything but it'll start a trend. Keep going
'till your out of this funk.

"You hate your job" jobs are work they can be a grind but you can live life
despite having a 9 to 5. You can find ways to enjoy the day. Getting that
amazing job wont fix this. You have to learn how to enjoy life as it is. And
you can and will.

You mentioned this is a cycle, if you're like me you know this happens and
you'll feel normal again one day. Just slog through it, you know you have the
strength. Maybe you don't see a point, well then just do it to beat this
stupid thing. Depression is a son of a bitch, don't let it take you out, take
it out. You know you can.

Some of the best advice I've ever heard:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_qvy82U4RE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_qvy82U4RE)

------
angersock
For what it's worth, plenty of really talented people don't get hired by FANG
or whatever your big 4 are--that's just a business thing, almost more chance
than anything else.

 _It doesn 't reflect poorly on you as a person._

People whining about your complaints are just failing at being empathetic.
They lack the context or the decency to hear you out politely.

 _It doesn 't reflect poorly on you as a person._

Not having $X_DOLLARS in your savings account due remittances back home (or,
hell, whatever else you spend it on) doesn't mean you're a bad or a weak
person. It just means you didn't or couldn't optimize for that account balance
in your life.

 _It doesn 't reflect poorly on you as a person._

For what it's worth, you mention that you spend 20 hours working, sleeping,
and commuting. Sleep is important, but don't give the bastards more than 8
hours of your life per day (including commute) unless they're compensating you
well for it. Valuing yourself and your time here about some corporate masters
is important.

 _It doesn 't reflect poorly on you as a person._

------
maxander
I'd guess that most of HN is in roughly your position- enamored with the idea
of a startup but without the savings to start one up, or enthusiastic about
Big Name tech companies but without the background or geographic location to
get in.

 _First and foremost_ , understand that your life is fine; you're a software
developer with a job that, albeit boring, is stable and makes good money.
You're supporting your family. Most people would give a limb to be in that
position. Your problems are psychological.

Consider seeing a therapist; it sounds like you need more perspective on your
own life than a bunch of commenters on HN could give you.

But for this commenter's two cents; if you do continue looking for a (even)
better job, try to find one that gives you _better work-life balance_. 20
hours for work+sleeping+commute? A good situation should see that down to 17,
tops- 8 for work, 1 for commute, 8 for sleep. Moving closer to work, to reduce
commute, has been cited as one of the greatest happiness-enhancing life
changes one can make. The 8 hour workday is poo-poo'd by HN because it's full
of SV workaholics, but its an available and healthy choice outside that scene.
(Notably, either working for a Big Name company or doing a startup would make
your life _much worse_ in this regard!) If sleep is eating up the time,
consider getting tested for sleep apnea (which can also have complications
such as depression... natch!)

With 7 hours of free time per day, rather than 4, you'd be in a much better
position to get your feet under yourself, both psychologically and
practically. (And perhaps, eventually, to make a better prototype for what you
want to do long-term.)

------
DoreenMichele
_You make a whole plan for quitting your job. Thinking about becoming a
homeless for a few months but you give up. You aren 't strong enough._

So, I actually quit my corporate job and spent 5.7 years homeless. I had my
reasons (health related). It was the right choice for me. I can see it being
the right choice for others at times.

But this is not one of those times. Being homeless sucks, and I had alimony.

If you think you feel like shit now, you really don't want to face choices
like "Spend a few bucks on a hot meal because I have no cooking facilities or
stand in line with other homeless people for up to two hours to get a free
meal at a soup kitchen. The free meal will be lousy and I will be surrounded
by sick people smoking and being assholes the entire time."

You maybe need a different social circle. My mom is an immigrant. I am very
familiar with helping the extended family yadda. If your people don't get
that, get new people. Their limited world view is hardly the only one out
there.

------
oliwarner
While there is some good advice here, HN is an awful venue to ask this sort of
stuff. Comparing yourself to _anybody_ here is toxic. You never get a full
picture and if you're already in the mindset that you're a failure, the guys
in here who only talk about themselves in a positive way will only reinforce
that.

You need to look after yourself.

Some ruts are too deep to climb out of without help. Find a
psych{ologist,iatrist} and talk this through, take the medication they
recommend (if any) and get well. It really can be that easy.

Then you can start to appreciate _life_ , not the shit that people extol on
here about investing and benchmarking and maximising pay. That will only ever
lead you back to feeling you never have enough.

FWIW I found cycling and woodworking. And then a baby girl. I'm _much_ clearer
what life is all about now.

------
codingdave
> Is anyone else living this same depression cycle?

I can understand why you want to ask this... but the answer isn't going to be
helpful. If you are depressed and thinking of killing yourself, get
professional help. Now.

~~~
oceanman888
Don't really think thats what he is looking for right now. Depression is
symptoms that something is wrong with his life.

~~~
maxander
It likely isn't what he's looking for, but if he's feeling that badly because
of these difficulties (which are a difficult struggle, to be sure, but not
catastrophic by any measure) it's not his life that's the problem. For some
biochemical or psychological reason it's hitting him harder than it should;
that's called, in many cases, clinical depression.

And importantly, in those cases, it's fixed by psychological means- usually
_not_ by life success, even when such success occurs.

~~~
oceanman888
The two extreme of looking at his problem and looking at him as a problem.
Seems solution is between them.

------
conmarap
> if you really believe in your idea, you should work full-time on it.

Run away from this type of investor, simply because they no longer understand
that believing in an idea and risking homelessness are two very different
things that should not be correlated.

Investors want to make their money back, and they have every right to want to
do that. But when they say things like that, they either don't understand the
difference between the two terms I mentioned, it they simply care about making
money and have no interest in your idea whatsoever.

Run. Away.

------
Khelavaster
Your life sounds unbelievably frustrating and lonely. I sincerely hope you
feel better and wish I lived closer and could do something.

It's not wrong to charitably keep your family afloat. That's for sure. Serious
commendations for your rational generosity. You only ever get one family. One
trouble with society is the opposite: Far too few children are too generous.

Your life brings tremendous value. Hope you feel better.

------
zapperdapper
Welcome the the real world! ;)

> You aren't good enough to land a job in one of the cool companies you
> admire.

Cool companies are often overrated. Working there can be a grind just like
everywhere else.

> You look back to all the money spent helping your family (who is poor and
> live in a developing country).

I understand this very well. But you will be of no use to them if you are
dangling from the end of a rope or living under a hedge. Own oxygen mask
first. I see this a lot in the filipino community here in UK. I believe the
solution to this is you have a set amount each month that goes to you savings
- that money just doesn't exist - not even to you. It has to be like you never
earned it. That becomes your critical savings. You then have another fixed
amount each month that goes to the family slush fund. I don't know of any
other way. You have to drawn the line somewhere.

First things first.

1) You have to make the best of your current job. Talk to the other engineers
and find out what they love about the job. Make new friends at work. Talk to
people about cool tech or outside of work activities. Put yourself out there a
bit more. Find a new tool that gets you enthusiastic again. Watch a few videos
that inspire you.

2) Plan your weekends. You mention family. See your family on the weekends.
Take up a new hobby that will get you out in the fresh air - long distance
walking is an awesome hobby (for example
[https://www.ldwa.org.uk](https://www.ldwa.org.uk)) and you can do it alone or
preferably with some guys from work, or other friends.

3) You are probably a bit depressed. Maybe discuss with your doctor.

4) These depressive cycles tend to be self-reinforcing. You need to break out
of the negative thought patterns - CBT is very, very useful for helping with
that. I use CBT all the time now - even though I'm not depressed as such. It's
actually fun.

5) I wouldn't worry about side projects if you are pushed for time. Side
projects can add a bit of stress - oh I really need to write that blog post.
Just let it go and, for now, focus on getting your job back on track as that's
what pays the bills. It seems like you are putting quite a bit of pressure on
yourself.

6) Easier said than done but a quick mental list before you sleep of the
things you are grateful for can help.

Good luck!

------
borncrusader
I read this post yesterday and I couldn't really sleep much and kept thinking
about this. This resonates with me so much - the job part, wanting to work on
something much cooler, saving up, spending for family etc.

I've come to realize that this is mostly because I have too high standards for
myself that I'm in constant pursuit of something that doesn't even exist. What
I'm saying might not really make sense to you, but it's ok to take slow. Just
focus on having people around you. I was in a similar state last year and the
only positive that was happening in my life was my time with my girlfriend and
now wife. I occasionally have these depressing thoughts but I just now think
about the positives in my life right now and feel grateful for them. Trust me,
it could be really really worse. I've had friends who had spouses cheating on
them, younger cousins whose parents died, friends who have special children
etc. and in perspective what me (and you) are going through is not that big a
deal. In fact, in the grand scheme of things it means squat.

Based on your post, you were raised with a typical middle-class mindset in a
developing country like India where you are told - do this and you'll be
successful. Get good grades and do well and you'll be lauded. I was raised
like that as well. But you come to the US (especially the bay area) and
there's immense competition for a very few number of resources. Suddenly, all
your previous tactics don't work. You want to one-up folks, you have positions
in "cool" companies as your benchmark. Trust me, I know folks who work in
Google/Facebook who work on mundane data cleaning and API calling jobs.

I can go ramble and ramble on but in a gist it's just this. Focus on the
positive things in life. It might be hard to look at them right now but take a
step back and evaluate it. It can be as simple as something like the barista
at your cafe smiled at you today. Start writing small lists of about 10 items
that you are grateful for everyday. Take up a hobby. It's ok if you suck at it
too. Diversify. Listen to music. Learn to play the guitar. Talk to folks
randomly on the phone. Read books. Stoicism is a good tool to use. I'm an
amateur stoic and the writings of Marcus Aurelius, Seneca or even modern day
stoics like Ryan Holiday resonate with me. Lurk around on
reddit.com/r/stoicism for more details.

Life can be fun if you want it to be man. Email me at [My HN username] AT
gmail.com if you wanna talk more.

God speed!

------
gremlinsinc
I'm sort of this way, but I also have worked for some companies who go heavy
on micro-management. One company I had to post in slack every 2 hours what I
was working on or else get a write up.

It was hard to stay focused when I had to literally set an alarm to stop
coding, and report in.

I wasn't too upset when they said that I wasn't working out (for not reporting
enough). Then I started freelancing which has been a blessing and nightmare at
once.

I love -- the freedom, I hate starving some months though. I'm hoping to get
more steady jobs, and clients through word of mouth / marketing, etc and to
eventually build a small SaaS with MRR capabilities (even $1k monthly MRR
would be awesome to me).

I still deal with lots of depression though, hoping I can overcome that and
going to see a professional soon about it.

------
banna2
Keep the fire inside you bro, you will get there All you need is burning
desire to accumulate anything, no need to feel depressed this happens to most
of us and we all struggling to start something of our own

if you're going through hell keep going dont stop!! you need faith and belive
in your dreams to keep moving

------
bsvalley
Hey guess what. Are you healthy? Do you have a place to sleep? Do you have
food on the table when needed?

Life is good my friend. You are part of the super human beings. You're 100%
alive and healthy. Go live tomorrow like it was your last day. Rince and
repeat.

------
saluki
That's why they call it work.

It's not always fun or perfect.

Sounds like you are doing alright, able to help your family, find jobs and
able to change jobs. So focus on the positive.

Now as far as doing your own thing that's a great dream to work at. You can do
it while working. Just don't try to go the investor route.

Here's some inspiration:

@DHH Startup School Talk
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CDXJ6bMkMY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CDXJ6bMkMY)

Follow Rob from drop shipping beach towels to creating and selling Drip.com.
[http://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/archives](http://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/archives)

Good luck, enjoy the ride.

------
momentmaker
It's a bit out of the conventional norms but I'd recommend going to an
Ayahuasca retreat to cleanse your inner state.

Depression stems from your energy (chi) getting blocked from rising up within
yourself. Ayahuasca cleanses all of that blockage for you no therapist can do
for you.

You know yourself best. You are the experiencer of all of your experiences so
you know what's best for yourself. No other person can guide you better than
yourself.

Right now your mind is running the show and it's running amok. Deep truths
could only be realized when you're still. Stillness that touches the depth of
your soul will guide you on your journey.

Best you the best :)

------
mxxx
If you're seriously considering suicide, please talk to someone about it. If
you don't feel like your friends can help, you can find seek professional
help. I don't know where you live but there are most likely organisations that
can help you with this kind of thing, even if it's just a voice to chat to on
the telephone.

Plenty of people think their job sucks or feel like they don't have enough
time to focus on the things they love, but if you are having genuine thoughts
about suicide, you DO have options. Even if things seem hopeless and you can't
see a way out, things can improve for you. Don't give up on yourself :)

------
yasp
Lately there seem to be multiple posts per day on HN about dealing with severe
depression. You certainly aren't the only one.

~~~
angersock
It's because people are finally coming forward to acknowledge the issues and
crumbling edifice of startupcanistan.

~~~
yasp
High IQ is associated with depression and anxiety. So is introversion, which
many software engineers tend towards. Software engineering as a career and
maintaining a family can both be stressful. Stress tends to exacerbate
depression.

~~~
angersock
They don't have to be stressful if the companies weren't practicing slash-and-
burn methods at the behest of greedy investors and callous founders.

~~~
yasp
Not all companies are stressful and some are more stressful than others.
Ideally this is something one evaluates when interviewing for a job, although
obviously not everyone has the luxury of choice.

------
oceanman888
I am not as depressed as you but in the same shoes for basically everything. I
am here if you feel like talking about it.

------
ionised
Ah man, if these 'cool' tech companies happen to included
Google/Facebook/Microsoft/Amazon/Apple etc. then please, stop beating yourself
up. These companies are starting to be recognised for the blight on society
they are and they don't deserve you.

------
known
Check self-actualization in
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs)

------
dylanhassinger
my rule is, "find a job. then find a better job".

------
segmondy
Go see a therapist.

------
mabynogy
Work for yourself. It will improve a bit the relationship with the others
(customer instead of boss, partner instead of colleague...).

