
Not enough foreigners applied for H1B visas this year, govt ran a second lottery - jeffreygoesto
https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/14/h1b_second_lottery/
======
magtux
I mean it makes sense to me. I chose to work in Ireland in tech rather than
America. Yes I took a 20% paycut after adjusting for COL but as an Indian,
it's a much nicer country. There is a clear, well defined process. You get a
permanent residency after 2 years and can apply for naturalisation after 5.
The government is not actively hostile to immigrants, no stste violence,
negligible prejudice and a very friendly people.

A lot of my friends who did their masters in the US are trying to move out as
well due to the visa process. You can't live forever on a H1B. Canada seems to
be the country of choice for those moving out. Money can only go so far, you
need peace of mind. You can't build your life on a temporary foundation.

Also one other recent phenomenon is that you can make boatload of money
staying in India and working for a startup. So the incentive to go to the US
is lesser atleast for the cream of the talent from the top universities.

~~~
dominotw
> I mean it makes sense to me.

All the reasons you citied for why it makes sense were true in april of 2020
too when H1B was oversubscribed by multiple factors.

So how does it make sense to you?

Its not like indians were getting Green cards in 2 yrs in april.

Correct explanation imo is drop in outsourcing contracts due to pandemic. TCS,
Wipro don't need h1b anymore.

[https://infotechlead.com/bpo/infosys-reveals-some-clients-
se...](https://infotechlead.com/bpo/infosys-reveals-some-clients-seek-price-
cuts-or-drop-deals-61543)

~~~
vsskanth
The vast majority of those H1Bs are obtained by outsourcing firms in India.
Since it's a lottery, they file a massive pool of applications and send the
ones who get picked.

Now since a H1B visa can't be issued if you're outside the USA (executive
order), all those picked applications will be abandoned.

This is on top of another trend where EU and Canada are competing for high
skilled immigrants and making it easier to move there.

~~~
thrwlkan3n
I hope you do know that the Indian WITCH companies hire a lot of people from
US on h1b. From what I heard, most of the companies such as Infosys stopped
bringing people from India 1.5 to 2 years ago. One team I know has been hiring
only US MS H1Bs at least since 2010. Its actually easier for them to hire
foreign MS students straight out of US colleges, because they are desperate
for h1b, than bringing someone from India. The MS graduate can be placed in
projects right away, while it will take several months to bring someone from
India. Many of these students will accept whatever salary they are offered if
they are running out of OPT or whatever its called. So when you are seeing
Infosys got x visas, that doesn't mean they are bringing x people from India.
Probably half or more of them were h1bs hired in US - either students or h1bs
who are changing jobs while in US.

~~~
pandaman
Most of H-1Bs are indeed from AOS or COS process, however there are still 15%
of consular processing applications according to the USCIS [1]. It's rational
to assume that 15% of selected in the lottery were also consular processing
and as they dropped out it would create ~13000 vacant spots (15% of 65K+20K
total cap).

1\.
[https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/reports/U...](https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/reports/USCIS%20H-1B%20Authorized%20to%20Work%20Report.pdf)

------
unchocked
The article says there was a record high number of applicants. But of those
selected, too may abandoned their applications.

Bailing on a move to the US because of an unchecked pandemic certainly makes
sense. I don't think this really fuels the American decline narrative any more
than the unchecked pandemic itself does.

~~~
humanlion87
And I am guessing quite a few jobs were lost during this time period. So the
companies might not have completed the application after being selected in the
lottery.

------
Kapura
Nothing could paint a clearer picture than this: America is no longer a place
that smart people want to move to. Quite the opposite, in fact. I think that,
regardless of how the election shapes up this year, next year will see an
enormous uptick in the number of Americans emigrating to a country less
burdened with problems of its own making.

~~~
dominotw
> America is no longer a place that smart people want to move to.

It still is. you theory is that it suddenly stopped being that country
suddenly from April of this year? Totally absurd logic. Check back how many
ppl apply for h1b next year when pandemic is over.

~~~
gambiting
Obviously this is a sample of size one, but growing up my dream was to move to
the US. Now I wouldn't move there no matter what. Maybe for some absolutely
stupid amount of money, but that's true of literally anywhere.

Edit: actually, it's a bit more than one - I have friends who work for SV
companies in their London offices and they all rejected real offers to move to
US(with an increase in pay) citing issues plaguing the country. My cousin had
a transfer visa already arranged and ready and changed his mind for the same
reason - US is just not an attractive country to move to. Or at least in my
mind it's equal to Russia as a place to live in - I'd consider it for good
money but it's not normally on my list because it seems like the systematic
issues of the country are off putting.

~~~
iagovar
I think you're exaggerating a bit. The US has some drawbacks (like healthcare
and a tendency to social conflict) but americans seem to be welcoming people
and if you're in a high paid field, definitely the US offers way higher
salaries.

If I was offered a good contract I won't lie, I would think about it, but it's
still pretty attractive compared to anywhere else.

I don't see any reason to "not move no matter what". It's definitely in the
top list of desirability. I'm pretty sure that I would have an easier time
making friends and a life for myself in the US than in Germany or most
northern-european countries, and if you're qualified enough you'll make decent
money.

Now imagine you're a top IT guy in some poor country. Do you really think that
it would be that difficult decision? It's easy to say "meh" when you live in
Europe.

~~~
ithkuil
The pros and cons vary significantly based in the nationality and skin color
of the applicant.

------
returningfory2
The title is slightly inaccurate. "Foreigners" do not submit H-1B petitions.
Their sponsoring employers do. The fact that the numerical limit was not
reached does not mean workers don't want to come to the US. It means that, in
light of COVID, their employers no longer want them and so did not pursue the
H-1B petition after it was selected.

------
thrwlkan3n
I am an Indian who worked in US for 6+ years. Got frustrated with the h1b
process and the way my employer treated me and left everything behind without
even a job lined up in India. The last 1 year consisted of my GC application
first stage getting denied, 3 months appeal, get i140, file h1b extension, get
RFEd, cannot renew license for 3 months until I get the h1b again. Finally
after an year of uncertainty, got my h1b for 3 more years, packed up and left
the next month.

Even though I didn't have a job in India (didn't even look for one), I was
completely in peace, no unending emotional pain with tears in my eyes, no
stress, anxiety, no suicidal thoughts. Then one day my previous employer
called me back, and I came back, because I cared for the project.

3 months later, homeland security (ICE) raided the office. Showed up suddenly,
ordered us to stop everything we are doing, took all of us into a conference
room. Wouldn't allow to even go for a bathroom break without them accompanying
us. Questioned everyone. They were asking questions like 'are we paid enough,
do we have any relatives in the office, am I staying alone or with other
colleagues' and so on - the kind of things I see in twitter and other places
where the anti h1b folks talk about us - that we all stay together because we
don't get paid enough or nepotism and so on. The funny thing is even when I
came back, I had no intention of staying in US for more than 3 years. I told
the officers we are having a baby due in 2 months, and they are in India,
hoping they would understand that I am there only for work, and has no
intention to settle down. We didn't want the baby to be born in US and become
a US citizen.

I look forward to an India were we won't have to rely on foreigners any more.

------
jakearmitage
The amount of hatred towards America in this circle is astonishing, and the
schadenfreude just feels like a drug. I honestly don't understand, I keep
trying to imagine how it would feel if people were like that towards my
country.

~~~
ralfn
In the Netherlands we have a saying 'high trees catch a lot of wind'

It's the best known country in the world. It's the most famous one. As a
result chances are for a lot of people on this planet the people they admire
the most and the people they despise the most will contain a lot of Americans.

I'm from the Netherlands. When we elect an idiot he falls of a skateboard and
says something stupid. When Americans elect an idiot a country gets bombed or
the world economy almost collapses.

It's too easy for the rest of the west to put all blame on the US. On the
other hand: to be the leader of the free world was the ambition of the US for
a long time. That does come with more responsibility.

If they dont want to carry all that responsibility by themselves one of the
things that has got to go too is the American Exceptionalism. You can't have
your cake and eat it too. The position came with both responsibilities and
privileges.

And maybe it would be nice to a formal letter of resignation in that case.

~~~
doktorhladnjak
As an American who previously lived outside the US for several years, I cannot
emphasize enough how deeply ingrained American Exceptionalism is throughout
every aspect of American life and politics, yet how oblivious most Americans
are to it.

------
swilliamsio
Other people in this thread have mentioned the pandemic, but I'd argue the
highly publicised Black Lives Matter protests are having a big effect in
pushing away foreigners as well.

------
angel_j
H1B is screwing generations of US tech workers, and dampening STEM initiatives
which is really going to hurt the economy later when we need skilled labor and
innovation at another scale.

We need to hire and train US. Anyone can learn the skills, why are we
rewarding education in other countries? Why are we drowning a hot job market
and neutering the innovation industry?

~~~
amir734jj
It shows you have no clue about the system. In my medium-size company, good
luck finding an American to be a system support engineer or be on the call
late night when things go wrong. The company will go bankrupt. America relies
on cheap foreign workers in every aspect of society.

~~~
dropit_sphere
Why do I care about the welfare of a company that wouldn't pay me enough to be
a support engineer?

~~~
amir734jj
That's a great point. I agree. But it's an unfortunate reality.

------
porksoda
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the USA, but your towns and cities are full of
rule-followers doing herd-passive-aggressive self-enforcement, and live-and-
let-live is a rare feeling. The article is right, it's probably corona and
other issues causing the shortfall, but having watched your guy bringing that
undercurrent of nastiness out into the open, is anyone actually surprised by
this?

I moved from Nicaragua to Mexico before Corona, and I'm waiting it out here: I
was so surprised by this place (and by Nica before it).

There surely is a lot of asylum woe on the border, but I can't really believe
anyone would want to leave here and go there, and nor can any of the other
delightful cultured sweet kind and wonderful "bad hombres" who live here.

~~~
nomoreservices
> your towns and cities are full of rule-followers doing herd-passive-
> aggressive self-enforcement, and live-and-let-live is a rare feeling

Can you give examples of what you mean by that? I've been living in the US
(Seattle area) for over 7 years and haven't felt that at all.

~~~
porksoda
OK, seattle; Washington State is one of my favorite places. I'm african, I
didn't think twice: I mistakenly walked out of the bar with my beer in my
hand, to fetch something from the car.

The ten minute fiasco that followed, during which I was not permitted to re-
enter the bar with my beer, but not permitted to put my beer in the trash can,
nor permitted to "finish it" and throw the can away, I had to "pass it over
the line" with outstreched arms, as though it was radioactive.

(edit: mis-remembered. I actually had to pass it over the wall that surrounded
the entrance, not over the entranceway itself. Maybe that's part of the
rules).

There were no cops on the scene, but I FELT we were on the verge of someone
calling nine-fucking-one-one.

In order to re-enter the pub (closest to my airbnb), I had to "ask
forgiveness", and I was "lucky enough" to have it bestowed on me.

Honestly I felt like a forty year old child.

~~~
porksoda
The thing I confabulated this with, was a memory of a TSA agent and I,
exchanging a "forbidden" item. That was also really weird, though I kind of
get why the overreaction exists; surely someone in an airport somewhere's died
of a keychain-pocket-knife before.

------
oblio
Does the US have a points based visa system?

~~~
CountSessine
No. One was drafted in 2013 by Obama but it never made it to a vote in
Congress.

~~~
winter_blue
It was passed by the Senate with 68 votes (a filibuster proof majority).
Republican xenophobia in the House led to it never being allowed a vote. It
would’ve passed the House without question had it been allowed a vote.

~~~
oblio
Why was it shot down? In practice it should limit immigration and the people
that make it should generally be the kind of people you want to attract:
highly educated, skilled, etc.

------
fizixer
Did they legally have to "reach the numerical allocations"?

Or is it that H1B employers have enough of a powerful lobby that USCIS had no
choice?

(since I assume current administration would've been content with under-
utilization this year).

~~~
diebeforei485
Yeah. This has been done before.

