
Indefinite solitary confinement in Canadian prisons ruled unconstitutional - joering2
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/charter-solitary-confinement-bc-ruling-1.4491526
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con_to_dev
Anonymous account because my employers don't know this. I spent 3 years in
solitary confinement in Virginia during my 10 year sentence and the experience
definitely changed me, though probably was actually beneficial in a strange
way. I spent the time focused on mathematics and actually became a decent
analyst near the end of it. I continued studying math until my release, after
which I went to college and eventually got a PhD in it. After deciding not to
pursue a career in academia, I became a developer and have recently moved into
data science, which I like better because I get to use my mathematical skills
along with programming.

My experience is obviously atypical though. I saw many people mentally
deteriorate, attempt suicide, and essentially give up hope in life while under
this sanction. What is worse, the state at that time was imposing a truly
inhumane punishment on the rastafarian community within prisons. Due to the
rastas not following prison grooming habits by refusing to shave off their
dreadlocks, the prison system moved a group of them into the hole. When I left
it, some had been there for 10 years straight. I can assure you that many of
these men were deeply disturbed.

I was lucky in that I have a psychology that can endure this sort of abuse and
come out of it stronger, but most people are not wired like this. Given what I
have seen, this really is tantamount to torture. I wish so much that normal US
citizens would tour a prison and see what this does to people, because maybe
then this would be outlawed.

~~~
pmarreck
I think you got really lucky. The evidence is piling up that extended solitary
is inhumane because the social isolation and lack of stimulus drives you
insane:
[https://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/05/solitary.aspx](https://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/05/solitary.aspx)

I'm really glad you turned things around. Perhaps one day you can write a book
about your experience, perhaps under a pseudonym.

~~~
fao_
> I think you got really lucky. The evidence is piling up that extended
> solitary is inhumane because the social isolation and lack of stimulus
> drives you insane

[op] > I spent the time focused on mathematics and actually became a decent
analyst near the end of it.

Finally, a one-path track to mathematical competence

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ralmidani
In the US, criminal justice is almost exclusively about inflicting maximum
pain and suffering, with apparently little to no desire for punishment to have
a reformative and deterrent effect.

In the name of being "tough on crime", people convicted of non-violent
felonies are often stripped of the Constitutional right to vote, and find it
difficult to obtain gainful, legal employment for years after they have
finished serving their sentences.

And then we wonder why recidivism is such a problem in the US...

~~~
frankc
I don't disagree exactly, but you don't think "maximum pain" has a deterrent
effect? I don't want to experience maximum pain myself...

~~~
joshontheweb
Apparently not enough of a deterrent to keep our prisons from over crowding.
It is also inhumane in my opinion. I think that it would do everyone well to
spend a weekend in solitary in jail. It is torture and should be seen as such.

~~~
ams6110
Spend a weekend in bed, not talking to anyone? I do that from time to time
now. I find it relaxing.

~~~
joshontheweb
It is different when it is against your will, you have no means of
entertainment / stimulation, and you don’t know how long you will be there.
But don’t take my word for it. Commit a small but arrest worthy infraction on
a Friday night and try it for yourself.

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opo
For some more background, Frontline did an episode on solitary confinement:
[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/solitary-
nation/](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/solitary-nation/)

And if you think solitary confinement is a nightmare, how about putting 2
people in a solitary confinement cell?

>...Imagine living in a cell that's smaller than a parking space — with a
homicidal roommate.

>...With a toilet, sink, shelf, and beds, the men were left with a sliver of
space about a foot-and-a-half wide to maneuver around each other. If one
stood, the other had to sit. They could palm both walls without fully
extending their arms. There was no natural light, just a fluorescent bulb and
small Plexiglas windows that looked out onto the hall. The solid door muffled
the cacophony of shouting and door-banging ricocheting off the tier. It also
blocked ventilation.

[https://www.themarshallproject.org/2016/03/24/the-deadly-
con...](https://www.themarshallproject.org/2016/03/24/the-deadly-consequences-
of-solitary-with-a-cellmate#.kdsY7GPUa)

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saryant
Related: Colorado ended long-term solitary confinement in 2017. Colorado no
longer keeps inmates in solitary for more than 15 days.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/12/opinion/solitary-
confinem...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/12/opinion/solitary-confinement-
colorado-prison.html)

~~~
nojvek
I wish this becomes a federal law.

US likes to shit over Canada but I have to say Canada very much seems like a
civilized country while US is going reverse.

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wolfgke
This is a serious question, so please don't downvote me if you consider it
ridiculous.

Intuitively I would say that I were locked together in a cell with some other
inmate, i would be a much worse fate than if I were locked in solitary
confinement. Being locked in solitary confinement is surely not a nice fate,
but as Sartre expressed it: "Hell is other people". In this sense I pretty
surely would consider being locked with another inmate in a cell as the real
"hell on earth".

So what is so bad about solitary confinement in comparison to non-solitary
confinement? As I said: If I were to choose, I would immediately choose
solitary confinement by far.

~~~
arkades
A few answers:

As a concrete box, usually windowless and monotone, solitary confinement is a
form of sensory deprivation. Studies of its effects on mental health are
similar to that of extended sensory deprivation. Some units like this offer
books; many don’t. Fee to none offer radio or television. Inmates have been
known to suffer hallucinations in solitary.

Two, it renders prisoners even more vulnerable to abuse by officers than even
regular inmates. There is no one to see what happens to you. The stress and
its effects on your body are borne whether or not you are ultimately
victimized.

Three, Sartre can say what he likes, but humans are social creatures. By and
large, cutting off social contact is a reliable way to induce depression and
anxiety. Indeed, inmates in solitary often develop severe symptoms of
depression and anxiety, which may become long-lasting or permanent. These
inmates are at a massively increased risk of suicide. It has been argued that
solitary doesn’t create mental disease, it just massively exacerbated
underlying mental disease. But since some measure of depression and anxiety is
extraordinarily common in inmates, I consider that a meaningless distinction.

Four, just as an empirical matter, there are a pile of studies on the negative
mental health effects of solitary confinement. Much like a math proof, “it’s
true because it’s true.”

~~~
wolfgke
> As a concrete box, usually windowless and monotone

I did not know this (as a non-native speaker of English I just knew "solitary"
\- "alone"). It is well-known to me that lack of daylight cycle etc. for a
longer time can cause medical conditions.

> Two, it renders prisoners even more vulnerable to abuse by officers than
> even regular inmates.

A really good argument. Accepted.

> Four, just as an empirical matter, there are a pile of studies on the
> negative mental health effects of solitary confinement. Much like a math
> proof, “it’s true because it’s true.”

This only shows that for the "average person" it causes problems.

~~~
c3534l
> It is well-known to me that lack of daylight cycle etc. for a longer time
> can cause medical conditions.

Some prisons have gotten around the requirement that prisoners be exposed to
daylight by placing the windows where they cannot be seen, but some of the
light can be from the cell. That way they can be say they're providing
daylight, it's just that the prisoners cannot see a window. Sometimes it seems
that the people who runs prisons are just as sick in the head as they people
inside them.

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mschuster91
> Leask agreed, saying an immediate declaration of invalidity would pose a
> "potential danger to the public or threaten the rule of law."

What the fuck. I mean, thanks to Judge Leask for invalidating this practice -
but that part is utter nonsense and causes up to a year of further suffering
for affected people. They're not going to walk around in society so what is
being threatened here?!

~~~
peeters
Administrative segregation is a legislated tool used for various problems
within institutions, such as violence within the penitentiary. It's a flawed
and now thankfully unconstitutional tool, but it is the established tool
nonetheless. Simply removing that tool without giving Parliament time to
legislate an alternative would leave them in a somewhat chaotic position.

That's not to say that in the meantime, it's the status quo. Corrections
Canada has essentially been put on notice, so any use of solitary going
forward is going to be under more scrutiny, and hopefully some aspects of the
decision (like not having the right to counsel during segregation hearings)
will be corrected sooner than that.

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dghughes
Just the other day my Security instructor played to my class a video of Kevin
Mitnick who mentioned during his prison sentence he was put in solitary
confinement for a year. The story goes the US government believed Kevin could
whistle into a payphone and trigger the launch of nuclear missiles.

Solitary confinement is obviously meant to be torture. It's punishment within
an organization where people are already being punished just by being there.

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adaptivecells
I had a sentence that had me in for many weekends in a row (in Canada). I had
some weekends where I was in a room with others, weekends where I was on my
own in a very small cell, and other weekends where I was in cell with one
other person.

1\. In a "day room" with 5-8 others. It also had a TV. The television was a
blessing and a curse. Since I wasn't the only one in the cell, I didn't have
control over it, so it just blared for 12 hours straight. You couldn't leave
the room and take a break from it, so it became hard to deal with at times.
That room had a bathroom with a door on it, which was nice. With five people
in the room it was tolerable. We all had mats on the floor. Once we were up
past 5 or 6, it was mat to mat with hardly any room to maneuver. The worst
part of this room was that the lights never turned off completely. It was
agonizing trying to fall asleep with fluorescents on all night. One nice
thing: there were windows up near the ceiling that reflected light onto the
wall throughout the day. It's amazing how meaningful a bit of light becomes
when you're stuck in a room for 52 hours straight.

2\. I only spent one weekend by myself in solitary. It was a tiny, filthy
cell. There was only enough space for my mat with just enough room left to
step around it. The edges of my sheet were black by the end of the weekend.
This was a rough weekend. They turned the lights off around 9pm, which was an
improvement over the day room. I meditated, that helped. I could feel my mind
start to warp and unravel during the weekend, so I can't imagine how others do
it for weeks on end. Mid weekend a guard took pity on me and handed me a book.
I had to pace myself reading it, trying to make it last.

3\. Other weekends were spent in cells that were a bit wider. Two inmates to a
cell, bunk beds so we weren't on the floor. This wasn't too bad, though it had
a real dungeon quality to it with beige metal walls and giant rivets. No
privacy when using the washroom - it was right next to the beds so you're face
is a couple of feet away from your roommate's bed when you're on the toilet.
The ceilings where fairly high, with a tiny window letting in a bit of light.
You couldn't see out of it. It was frustrating, because you could see it used
to be a full window, but they'd covered up most of it. When it got dark, the
bottom of dropped out of me and I was overcome with a really profound sadness.

4\. The dorm was the best experience by far. I only got one weekend in the
dorm which sucked. It had around 16 bunk beds and was quite spacious. Usually
they cram it full, which would have been hellish, but there were only 6 or 7
of us, so it felt luxurious. There were large windows, frosted so you couldn't
see out, but it was the best thing ever. We don't realize how much light
affects our mood. Having that natural light stream in all day was like mana
from heaven. The dorm had two tables with benches which meant I didn't have to
eat balancing my food tray on my lap, sitting on my mat. It had a TV, but the
room was large enough you could go to the other end and sort of take a break
from it. I got a deck of cards that weekend, which was a welcome distraction.

5\. Pods: these were similar to #2, but smaller. They had a small bench to eat
at, but other than that, just enough room to pace back and forth. They did
have windows that you could actually see out of. That was a treat. I would
just sit and stare at the trees and the sky for hours. I would feel quite
melancholy and sad, but seeing the world outside made me feel somewhat
connected. The cell was small enough that it felt quite psychologically
oppressive. I know how a lion feels, pacing back and forth at the zoo. It's
sign of mental distress, and I couldn't stop myself from doing it. One thing I
noticed is that you have to find a way to break up the monotony of the day.
Pace for a bit, lie on bed, pace, sit on the bed, stare out the window, lie on
the bed but looking at a different section of the wall. Sunday nights were the
worst. It was difficult to fall asleep, and I always ended up waking hours
before we were released, not knowing what time it was. Most weekends I could
get a sense of time, but in #2 and #3, there was no way to tell the time. It
really messes with your mind, not knowing if an hour has passed, or 4 hours,
or 30 minutes. I was fortunate in that it only ever lasted for 52 hours, but
even that was difficult to endure some weekends.

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ohiovr
Thank you northern neighbors for standing this way.

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throwwit
Read as: open-concept planning gains momentum to save money in cash-strapped
overcrowded prison system.

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fnord77
how is it constitutional in the US? Surely there have been challenges.

~~~
garrettgrimsley
It isn't legal. The SCOTUS has ruled that indefinite solitary confinement
violates the due process clause of the 14th Amendment.

~~~
chx
There are people like Eric Rudolph serving multiple consecutive life sentences
in ADX Florence -- how is that legal then in light of that ruling?

~~~
ExactoKnight
That FBI spy got sent there too.

There really ought to be a judicial process for determining which prison you
_ought_ to be serving your sentence in. If you become enemy to the feds you
get a life of absolute hell thanks to some guy high up placing you there you
out of vendetta.

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andrewstuart
Ugh, who could possibly advocate such an inhuman thing in the first place?

~~~
optimuspaul
Voldemort, sociopaths, the morally bankrupt... I don't know. It's really
messed up.

~~~
SamReidHughes
Voldemort didn't create Azkaban. The truth is, he rescued people from the
place. Try reading _A People 's History of Wizarding Britain_ by Noam Chomsky
to get a better perspective on things.

~~~
optimuspaul
lol, thanks for putting me in my place ;)

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hprotagonist
canada, not california

~~~
sctb
Thanks. We've reverted the submitted title from “CA: Indefinite solitary
confinement in prisons ruled unconstitutional”.

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pfarnsworth
My theory is that drastically reduced sentences using solitary confinement
might be more useful than sticking people in jail cells for longer periods of
time.

For example, for minor offences have 1-2 days of solitary confinement, and
increase it meaningfully as the violence of the crime increases and for
recidivists.

The benefit is that you can isolate the prisoners completely, so that they
don't engage in gang activity, drugs, etc. It's also much safer for prison
guards and you can get by with less. You can also pack in a lot more convicts
into a small area, but also the turnover will be much quicker, so you can
handle more convicts.

Solitary confinement is much much harsher, so for first-time-offenders, they
will get scared straight, but they also can't get indoctrinated into more
criminal activity from gang members, etc. First time offenders will get scared
straight much quicker (spending only a few days or a week in solitary) vs much
longer sentences.

~~~
lallysingh
I don't disagree. There's another aspect to this: the deterrent aspect (for
some) of spending time with hardened criminals.

Also, sometimes 1-2 days completely alone sounds pretty good.

~~~
icebraining
_Also, sometimes 1-2 days completely alone sounds pretty good._

Thereby showing that it's not an effective deterrent?

