
Mats Järlström’s victorious 6-year battle over yellow lights - Garbage
https://www.koin.com/local/washington-county/mats-jarlstroms-victorious-6-year-battle-over-yellow-lights/
======
herodotus
Quick summary: when someone is making a right-turn, and the light has changed
to yellow, they do not have sufficient time to finish their turn before the
light turns red. Therefore, at lights with red-light cameras, many people who
could not possibly stop in time are getting tickets. (The point is that the
fact that cars turning have to slow down must be taken into account when
calculating how long it takes to traverse the intersection. If you are going
at close to the speed limit, you get through while yellow, but if you have
slowed down because you plan to turn, and the yellow occurs too late for you
to stop, you will be long enough in the intersection to get a ticket).

Mr Jarlstrom made many efforts to point this out to the Beaverton (OR) city
council. Not only did the officials treat him with disdain, the state even
fined him for practising engineering without a license. (Talk about shoot the
messenger!)

However, it turns out he was right, and he has been vindicated in an article
in the Journal of the Institute of Transportation Engineers.

~~~
slavik81
The engineering association didn't really fine him for the campaign itself.
They were upset that he claimed to be an engineer when making his arguments,
despite not being licensed in that state. Even then, they gave him repeated
warnings before issuing the fine.

In the end, the courts ruled in his favour. As a matter of freedom of
expression, anyone can now claim to be an engineer in the state of Oregon.

~~~
crooked-v
In the context of what was basically "I have been educated as an engineer,
which is why you should be giving me more credence than a random person", I
feel the use of the word is perfectly fine.

~~~
WrtCdEvrydy
In the real world, professional engineers are bonded and are liable for errors
like lawyers.

~~~
qeqeqeqe
Are there many examples in the real world of this actually happening?

~~~
WrtCdEvrydy
Close to home... yes, the FIU bridge engineers could have been charged with
manslaughter
([https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article23659748...](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article236597488.html))

~~~
qeqeqeqe
I'm pretty sure anyone that works on something that kills people "could" be
charged manslaughter. The entire PE system seems antiquated and obsolute.

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neonate
[https://web.archive.org/web/20200301140653/https://www.koin....](https://web.archive.org/web/20200301140653/https://www.koin.com/local/washington-
county/mats-jarlstroms-victorious-6-year-battle-over-yellow-lights/)

[https://archive.md/Sy521](https://archive.md/Sy521)

[https://outline.com/TtHBpK](https://outline.com/TtHBpK)

------
aetherspawn
In Australia you only get a ticket if the rear axle passes over the line while
the lights are red.

It is very common for people to bank up an intersection and join the
perpendicular traffic. Also we have left-lane-to-turn-right intersections.

Realistically being in the middle of an intersection when a light is red
endangers no-one. You’re already there, so people can see you and aren’t going
to T-bone you. Even if stationary.

~~~
snazz
> Realistically being in the middle of an intersection when a light is red
> endangers no-one. You’re already there, so people can see you and aren’t
> going to T-bone you. Even if stationary.

At low speeds, maybe. At anything above 30 mph, or at night, or with otherwise
reduced visibility, it's still very dangerous to be in the middle of an
intersection when traffic is flowing the other way.

There's also no right-turn-on-red setup in Australia, which means that this
situation is unlikely to happen in the first place.

~~~
denkmoon
We have left turn on red, remembering we drive on the left hand side. It is
not universal though, it has to be signposted.

In practice, you only get "caught" inside the intersection when there is heavy
traffic, so speeds shouldn't be particularly high.

~~~
snazz
Whoops, you’re right. That would explain why I got a resounding “no” when I
searched for “right turn on red Australia”. My American ignorance at work
again :)

~~~
macintux
In some U.S. jurisdictions (like mine) you can turn _left_ on red, when
turning from a one-way street onto another.

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wwweston
There doesn't seem to be much information as to the legal basis for
Järlström’s efforts -- is there some Oregon or US requirement that red light
cameras need to be "fair" in order to be legal?

(Also -- would this extend to California? I received a red light ticket at an
odd double intersection here I'm convinced involved a no-win situation, trying
to figure out options, traffic lawyers of the ticket clinic variety do not
seem to be of particular help.)

~~~
flyingfences
In this case, it's not a question about the camera at all - the camera was
just what got him interested. The question at hand was the timing of the
lights themselves, which were timed upon a simplified model that is not
applicable to intersections with turns.

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dpiers
Well this is convenient timing.

I just received a citation for making a right turn at a red light 0.3 seconds
after the light turned red. I had already been preparing my arguments for why
my actions produced the safest possible outcome, but these materials should
prove exceptionally useful in our case.

~~~
macintux
If it’s safe to reveal so, what made it safer to turn than to stop in your
case? Having a hard time picturing such a scenario.

~~~
dpiers
Driving 30MPH. The light turned yellow when we were 100 feet from the
intersection. If you are traveling straight through the intersection, you can
be up to 154 feet away when the light turns yellow and make the light before
it turns red.

As we decelerated to make the turn, I realized we might not make the light and
had to decide whether to take the turn at an aggressive speed or heavily brake
to a stop. Suddenly stopping would pose a significant risk to the passengers
in my vehicle and in the vehicle behind me. I observed that the intersection
was clear and committed to the turn.

This is the exact 'dilemma zone' described by Mats. If you are still having a
hard time picturing it, there are plenty of diagrams in the ITE journal
article that explains his calculations.

------
gnicholas
Referenced journal article, which hopefully is available to all:

[https://www.nxtbook.com/ygsreprints/ITE/ITE_March2020/index....](https://www.nxtbook.com/ygsreprints/ITE/ITE_March2020/index.php#/34)

------
rory096
Previous discussion (2017):

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14234223](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14234223)

~~~
dang
Also
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14197512](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14197512)

------
dkdk8283
Red light cameras are nothing other than a revenue machine. Be suspicious of
anyone who advocates for them.

~~~
mcv
Enforcement of traffic rules shouldn't have to be a problem, but when fines
are seen as revenue, that may create perverse incentives for the people who
implement the rules. Yellow lights staying yellow for just a bit too short is
one of them.

------
alkonaut
Wasn’t this guy fined for “practicing engineering without a license” or
something similar?

~~~
scarejunba
Indeed he was, and it shouldn't really need to be a cautionary tale because
that's the natural result of giving organizations like this such power.

It's why software is so much better: no one takes certification guys
seriously.

~~~
wizzwizz4
Ah, yes. Software is _so much_ better.
[https://xkcd.com/2030/](https://xkcd.com/2030/)

~~~
scarejunba
Killed fewer than any of the others.

~~~
wizzwizz4
Because we rarely put it in a position of power. When we do, stuff like the
737 Max (where badly-programmed software attempted to compensate for badly-
designed hardware, and probably could've got away with it if it weren't badly-
programmed), or the 1994 Scotland RAF Chinook crash (where the software
controlling the engine was just rubbish, but it's unknown whether that
actually caused the crash), or Therac-25 (where the software controlling the
radiation therapy machine was rubbish) happens.

If you're counting war systems, the list is much longer. I don't.

All of these issues were caused by ordinary software development practices
being applied in a context where the software was actually important. Real-
world software development practices completely suck, and have to be
completely thrown out of the window if everybody's going to get out alive.

The reason more people haven't died is that software isn't given positions of
responsibility very often, and it's usually held to actual standards when it
is.

~~~
scarejunba
And that's what good engineering is. When you know your product can't do the
job, you don't put it in a position of responsibility. If you can't do it
safely, don't do it. That's good engineering.

Physical world engineers could stand to learn a lot from software engineers
about the hard parts of engineering. Sometimes it's about saying "No, we
shouldn't."

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aliswe
Sorry but this somehow strikes me as a very swedish thing to do.

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modzu
traffic cameras are put up to collect rent, not enhance safety :(

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pyuser583
Would formal verification be helpful in this situation?

~~~
ska
How? This is a question of policy, really.

~~~
pyuser583
Whether or not a driver would find themselves in a situation where they would
get a ticket despite following the law. Basically where they would have to run
a red light.

------
dexen
Archived version, since access is blocked for european readers:
[http://archive.is/Sy521](http://archive.is/Sy521)

~~~
hanoz
The original article is not available to me because "European Union visitors
are important" to them, the archive version, miraculously now compatible with
my dns service, features a Google captcha which is unsolvable due to being
half off the page.

Where did it all go wrong?

~~~
chongli
There wasn't a singular moment when it went wrong. It's been a long, steady
decline. Hackers have gradually been marginalized and replaced by bureaucrats.

I've been reading Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution [1] by Steven
Levy. It's fascinating, but also heartbreaking, to see how things have gone,
given that the hackers of the 60's and 70's were fighting against it even back
then.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackers%3A_Heroes_of_the_Compu...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackers%3A_Heroes_of_the_Computer_Revolution)

~~~
CamperBob2
Well, to be fair, the transition between the hackers and the bureaucrats was
greased by abusive MBAs.

EU data privacy legislation wouldn't have been seen as necessary if companies
weren't exploiting their user base unethically. The fight to keep the Internet
open to everyone should have been an easy one for the "hackers" to win... but
the other side had help.

~~~
patrec
Yup, all those FAANGS were founded and are currently run by evil MBAs. In
reality of course, even Cook started out with a STEM degree.

------
stared
Either

"Our European visitors are important to us."

or

"This site is currently unavailable to visitors from the European Economic
Area while we work to ensure your data is protected in accordance with
applicable EU laws."

