

Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam - DeusExMachina
http://venturebeat.com/2011/06/24/say-hello-to-appsterdam-developers-aim-to-move-the-valley-to-amsterdam/

======
fmw
Amsterdam is somewhat of a creative hub here in the Netherlands, with a lot of
designers, photographers, advertising people and other creative types. There
are also a number of good, but relatively expensive, data centers where you
can host your servers. It has never really been a technical hub, though. Most
technically focussed businesses (including startups) in the Netherlands seem
to be in places like Eindhoven (with the technical university and Philips
campus at its core) and other towns with technical universities, like Delft
and Twente. Amsterdam is a bit of a hipster town, like people who work in
advertising or make iOS applications, not a nirvana for nerds. One of the
exceptions seems to be the CWI at the Amsterdam Science Center, which is were
Guido van Rossum started working on Python.

That being said, there is some technical talent in the Netherlands and
distances are small enough that you can attract people from towns like
Eindhoven to work at a startup in Amsterdam. Most people also speak English,
allowing easier cooperation with foreign co-workers and customers.

Downsides of the Netherlands are bad conditions for immigrants, high taxes
(expect to pay over 50% on income tax alone), high cost of labour due to all
kinds of government enforced perks like daycare and a lot of free time,
business-unfriendly labour law, bureaucracy and the lack of an entrepreneurial
culture. Technical and scientific education is also declining in both
popularity and quality, despite the half hearted efforts of our government to
position the country as a "knowledge economy". Getting a visum is relatively
easy for immigrants from the EU and US (there is a special treaty with the US
to enable easier immigration), but immigrants may be forced by the government
to participate in expensive language and integration courses due to a streak
of xenophobic politics in the last ~10 years.

Amsterdam has a reputation as a liberal city and a "gay capital". There seems
to be some correlation between a vibrant gay culture and tech hubs, if you
look at Tel Aviv and San Francisco. I hope that Amsterdam can turn the current
decline around in that respect, because the city isn't as gay-friendly as it
used to be anymore (according to the homosexual community; I can't report from
first hand experience here). Homosexual couples are apparently harassed and
beaten by groups of second and third generation immigrants from muslim
countries (whom are quite prevalent here). A homosexual couple (or visually
distinguishable Jew for that matter) will get harassed, bullied out of
immigrant neighborhoods and in some cases physically threatened or worse. This
development is accompanied with a rather ugly, xenophobic and isolationist
political movement rooted in the lower middle classes that feel left behind in
the current economy. Their main political hero, Geert Wilders, gained
popularity by constantly picking on muslim immigrants in the rudest possible
manner and is currently heading the second biggest party in Dutch parliament.
The other parties have silently adopted a similar tough stance on non-Western
immigrants to retain or win back voters, but usually without the ugly
rhetoric. The tolerant atmosphere that brought intellectuals from Descartes,
to John Adams to Einstein to our country seems to be in peril.

I think Amsterdam has potential for startups. Particularly in the creative and
mobile apps industry. That being said, the current entrepreneurial atmosphere
in the Netherlands isn't great and I doubt that we will be able to compete
with places like Silicon Valley. I think it won't attract many foreign
founders before some of the cultural problems are solved (I'm pessimistic and
distrust any government initiatives in that respect because politicians won't
be able to create a startup culture) and the town becomes a local tech hub in
its own right (competing with towns like Eindhoven). But this is a cool
initiative. I'm sure it will do at least _some_ good and will be valuable to
the participants. I'm not in Amsterdam, but as a Dutch hacker I might drop by
one of the meetings at some point.

~~~
wasigh
Coming from Eindhoven I'am a bit jealous of the Startup community in
Amsterdam. But still I would not really consider working in Amsterdam. The
1:20 hour single trip commute by train would take the best of me.

~~~
skrebbel
Then do a startup in Eindoven. On the international scale of things, Eindhoven
is a suburb of Amsterdam. Or the other way around.

People don't live in SF and work in San Jose much, either.

That said, my underbelly feeling is that Eindhoven is getting a nice startup
scene, slowly swelling, though mostly focused on devices and not so much on
software. But in all honesty I don't think there's much of a difference.
Whether my startup buddies make html5 apps or the next revolution in fitness
machinery, we face much of the same kinds of problems.

~~~
skrebbel
Addendum: I think Eindhoven might have near virgin hiring grounds. Thousands
of brilliant people currently work at a small number of high-tech BigCo's,
spending a week on fixing two bugs in 30M lines of unmaintainable C code (I'm
talking to you, ASML). Some of these must know, deep inside, that things can
be better.

I think that a startup that grows a fair bit past ramen profitability has a
lot to offer to these kinds of people. The biggest problem is how to get the
word out.

------
Meai
It would be helpful if the initiators of Appsterdam worked on gathering
information relevant for startups. What makes Amsterdam better than Berlin,
Vienna... basically any other city. What are the legal conditions in the
Netherlands - especially in regard to founding a company and getting accepted
as an immigrant, what other companies are already situated there (foremost
what their experiences are), and how the living conditions and foremost prices
are there for example. I'm from Europe, but that doesn't mean I have extensive
knowledge on cross border work laws, just like Americans won't have that. And
of course what Appsterdam actually is...who is the driving force behind it
right now, and what kind of force that is =

What do you want to do? Organize a few social meetings between founders of
startup companies? Is that the extent of Appsterdam? I think it's awesome, I
just also think you should be clearer about your intent. Just stating "I want
to be the next Google / Silicon Valley / Ipod, doesn't really uniquely
identify you :)

~~~
DeusExMachina
I'm one of the volunteers in Appsterdam and I can tell you we will do all of
it, and more ;) A quick list:

\- Creation of a community with meetings and drinks.

\- Weekly lectures about technology that will also give speaker training.

\- Provide legal and local information to people that will move here, like
immigration policies and the like.

\- Arranging of venues to work in and be around with other developer: we have
the Appsterdam HQ; Igluu and Vodafone will offer a work space for a good price
and with facilities like a lab with smartphones for testing; we will locate
developer friendly cafes with free wifi.

\- Family get togethers in the weekends, so our partners/spouses/children can
create a network too.

\- The university is interested in creating a course where developers are
professors like in (if I'm correct) Berkeley.

\- The government is interested in giving money for tech projects.

\- At the party Mike announced that there will also be a fund for startups
(called Appsterfund).

Maybe I'm forgetting something. Soon the video of the keynote will be online.

Edit: formatting

------
pg
I've always felt Amsterdam would make a good startup hub. It has the right
sort of atmosphere. Civilized without being pretentious.

~~~
spif
The startup scene _is_ growing into a hub actually, although some elements
(e.g. capital) are hard, others easier (hiring, advice).

That feels like an honor coming from you, thanks. Have you been in Amsterdam
often?

~~~
tomh-
How is it growing in a hub exactly? Where do all founders of successful
startups hang out? There are some startups out there in Amsterdam, but there
are many in other cities too (Utrecht, Delft, Enschede etc.). Amsterdam is
definitely not a clear winner as location to found a startup among cities in
Holland.

~~~
ElDragonRojo
How is it growing as a hub exactly? Did you actually read the article? ;)

Luckily Appsterdam is not limited to Amsterdam. This isn't a pissing match
between Dutch cities. It's about international branding. Appschede doesn't
sound as good. Most people associate Delft with pottery. Americans have never
heard of Utrecht.

As far as most people are concerned, these places are features of Amsterdam.
But if you're in the Netherlands, we're a train ride away, and you're always
welcome to come up for an event or a meeting.

~~~
tomh-
One initiative doesn't make it a hub. If you found a startup in Holland, there
are plenty of other cities which are suitable to found. The distances are sort
of close, so the reasons why you HQ your startup in the valley are not exactly
applicable to Amsterdam, you get the same benefits in most other big cities
with talent.

You are right it is not a pissing contest, but you mention exactly what
Americans (or other foreigners) would think. Most foreigners don't know much
about Holland and see everything as a sub-urb of Amsterdam. They don't know
where the local talent is, where the good universities are, where (local)
people want to live. Don't forget that Dutch people think Amsterdam is as cool
as foreigners do.

Don't take me wrong, Appsterdam is a cool initiative, but to me it sounds like
something by foreigners, for foreigners.

~~~
ElDragonRojo
It's not by foreigners for foreigners. Our attendees, and our volunteers, are
about half expat, half local. Appsterdam will be a benefit to App Makers
around the world, and also a tremendous boon to the Netherlands.

------
c4urself
Less expensive? not by much is my bet: Amsterdam is the most expensive city in
Holland and one of the more expensive ones in Europe (Scandinavian countries +
London may be worse is my estimate). It's also impossible to find housing.

As far as immigration is concerned, one can fall under the category "kennis-
migranten" (loosely translated as knowledge-workers) pretty easily, as long as
the company sponsoring you is willing to pay the money, around 50K (Pay is not
like the Valley, but I'm guessing this is doable).

There is the possibility of starting a company as an American citizen due to a
WW2-era Dutch-American Friendship treaty (see
<http://www.expatlaw.nl/dutch_american_friendship_treaty.htm>)

As far as startups I know of in Amsterdam, there is Fashiolista, and Sofa used
to be there...

~~~
DeusExMachina
Impossible to find housing is not my experience.

I moved here one year ago from Italy. Got an apartment from my first company
for 2 months, then rented a shared apartment with other two people.

After a few months I got a mortgage with no money down and moved in my own
house not far away from the center, and the government reimburses me part of
that every month.

If we speak about renting prices, I can agree they are high, but from what I
heard they are still less expensive than in the valley. Places to rent also go
really quickly, but impossible is another thing.

~~~
tomh-
The rent is very high in Amsterdam, and it is really difficult to find good
housing in Amsterdam in a decent neighborhood. The rent might be lower than
the valley, but don't forget that Dutch salaries can easily be half of what
you can get in the valley too.

~~~
NonEUCitizen
Rent is high. It's also difficult to find housing because most places use
"Makelaars" (rental agents), and they tend to only want to show the apartments
during office hours on weekdays.

~~~
ElDragonRojo
Appsterdam also has an amazing housing agent who specializes in expats.

I have a ground level apartment with a courtyard on the canal at Groenburgwal,
which is in my opinion the nicest neighborhood in Amsterdam, right smack in
the middle of everything, but quiet, and beautiful.

Furnished, all inclusive: €1300/mo.

I lived in San Francisco. An apartment this nice in a neighborhood this nice
was well out of my price range, and I made six figures at Apple.

~~~
tomh-
This is typically unaffordable for most developers (single). If you earn
50.000 euro per year, this would be 50% of your net-income. Most rental
agencies have requirements on your income before you are eligible to rent an
apartment. This could be 4 or 4.5 times your pretax income so you would
require a 60-70k salary (or income) per year. That is 85k-100k USD. That is a
high end salary, which only the most senior people would get.

~~~
ElDragonRojo
This represents about the nicest apartment in Amsterdam. Things get cheaper
the further you move from the center. And what "most rental agencies" require
doesn't affect us. We have our own agency.

~~~
tomh-
Mind to share that agency with the rest of us or give a ballpark price for an
apartment a typical developer can afford (30-40k pre-tax salary)? I know lots
of people who have been searching for places in Amsterdam to live for a decent
price.

------
deciara
I'm writing the follow-up on this for VentureBeat. Should be out tomorrow and
will answer a lot of these questions. But there are several things I liked
about Appsterdam. It's a bottom-up, developer-led movement rather than a top-
down, government program. It's about creating a haven for indie developers who
want to live in a place that is in line with hacker values and have a life as
well as a job.

------
TWAndrews
Seems like an odd time to do this, given the strict new law
([http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/23/dutch-parliament-
passes-s...](http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/23/dutch-parliament-passes-
strict-new-law-regulating-cookies-the)) on cookies that the Dutch Parliament
just passed.

~~~
rtuck
Legally speaking, the larger problem is probably immigration law. The anti-
foreigner sentiment here is driving a set of ever more annoying laws and
processes.

To digress a bit: For the non-EU crowd, the easiest way into the country is
probably with a kennismigrant (knowledge worker) visa. This entitles you to a
faster, easier process but there's a few problems: You must work for a company
with (or willing to apply for) a special license to have a knowledge worker,
you must make over a certain salary, and you're not allowed to do any other
sort of work while living here (yes, that probably means your side startup).

Supposedly, you can also set up your own business here and work for yourself
directly but I've never met anyone who's successfully done it. I expect you'll
probably need to hire a decent lawyer to help sort it out.

Immigration aside, the Netherlands is a nice place to work and there's more to
Amsterdam itself then pot and prostitutes. Something interesting is always
going on and there's plenty of smart folks bouncing around. Personally, I hope
this whole Appsterdam concept (mobile-centric name aside) turns into a huge
hit.

~~~
NonEUCitizen
The Kennismigrant visa is indeed an advantage and quick to get, but not an
advantage over other EU countries for long. Most EU countries are about to
start implementing the EU Blue Card visa (supposedly starting July).

However, more important than ease of visa processing is that as a
Kennismigrant, you can usually get the "30% rule" tax break -- first 30% of
your income is tax-free, AND the first euro after the 30% is taxed at the
lowest tax bracket (i.e. the other 70% is adjusted down in tax bracket). You
don't even need to be non-EU to get the 30% rule -- e.g. if you're a Danish or
German or Spaniard, and get recruited to the Netherlands specifically for
"knowledge work," you can qualify for this tax break too. It's good for 10
years. If you're married, try to see if your spouse can also get a job with
this tax break BEFORE you accept your job offer and move to NL.

Make sure you don't go to university or grad school in NL tho, because you
have to have been recruited to NL specifically as a highly skilled worker to
qualify for this tax break. If you were already in NL for school, you tend to
get disqualified for this 30% rule.

------
paulnelligan
I feel that Berlin is a far better startup hub than Amsterdam: It's cheaper,
has far more space, and many creative people and programmers ...

That's why I'm moving THERE and not Amsterdam ...

------
econgeeker
Was able to find the "Dutch American Friendship Treaty". This means it is
relatively straightforward for americans to set up a business in the
netherlands.

But not cheap. For a three person business, it looks like it would cost
$15,000 in "capital" and around $7,500 in lawyers and other services to
prepare the necessary paperwork (based on Mike Lee's estimates and the fact
that our business has more than one person, so would need to incorporate.)

It seems wrong to me to put about $15k in the bank to do nothing when there's
far more than that already invested in the business (Which is existing
already) and the value of the business is more than that.

Will wait for the appsterdamers to get more details out. Maybe the situation
is different for relocating an existing business.

------
upthedale
> a location that’s far less expensive, and easier to immigrate to, than
> Silicon Valley.

4 years ago I travelled (mostly-) western Europe by train, staying in some of
the big cities. Compared to the likes of Paris, Barcelona, Rome and Munich, I
felt Amsterdam was a lot more expensive.

Of course times may have changed, and the comparison was to Silicon Valley,
which I have no experience of, but it struck me as a strange point to pick out
when I would have considered there to be more compelling arguments
specifically about Amsterdam.

~~~
DeusExMachina
I made a quick search on Google and Amsterdam turns out to be less expensive
than the cities you cited.

First two links:

[http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/expensive-cities-
europe...](http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/expensive-cities-europe.html)
<http://www.finfacts.ie/costofliving.htm>

~~~
trimbo
According those links, San Francisco or San Jose aren't even in the top 50
most expensive.

Every time I read one of these "the Valley is moving to X" articles, I'm
reminded of the last 15 years of "the Valley is moving to X" articles that
haven't come true. Tech is a huge industry, and growth allows for jobs
everywhere. I don't know why all of these articles have to be phrased as if
jobs need to leave the Valley to make it happen.

~~~
DeusExMachina
Mike just wrote a blog post about how much expensive Amsterdam is:
<http://mur.mu.rs/?p=179>

About the "the Valley is moving to X" I can tell you our objective is not to
move the Valley here. What we want to really accomplish is to build the some
sort of evolution of it. We want to build a great community and make Amsterdam
the technology and innovation center in Europe. The outcome looks bright and
we are very optimistic about it.

We definitely do not need to move the Valley here for Appsterdam to be
successful, Europe is full of great talent. But of course people from the
Valley are welcome as well and can make our community richer.

~~~
trimbo
> About the "the Valley is moving to X" I can tell you our objective is not to
> move the Valley here

And yet the subject of the OP is: "Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to
move the Valley to Amsterdam"

Of course, if it was a less clickworthy title like "Amsterdam trying to
increase number of tech jobs", we wouldn't have seen it upvoted.

------
JVerstry
Great initiative, but there is no way to 'join' Appsterdam. I could not even
find a Facebook Group. How do people connect with each other online?

~~~
vanelsas
<http://appsterdam.rs> Give it a bit of time, its warming up and will become a
relevant movement :-)

------
BasDirks
There was recently an article in de Volkskrant (a major Dutch newspaper)
describing Twente (an area in the east of the Netherlands) as the European
"valley" for high-tech, with quite a few world-leaders in niche technology's.
I will go through my pile of old newspapers to see if I can find it, but it
was from quite a while ago. If someone else has it or knows where people can
read it, I'd appreciate it if you'd share it.

As I live about 30km (~18 miles) from Amsterdam, I will try to attend a
meeting.

------
deciara
VentureBeat's follow-up. Appsterdam: A haven for Indie app makers?
[http://venturebeat.com/2011/06/27/appsterdam-a-haven-for-
ind...](http://venturebeat.com/2011/06/27/appsterdam-a-haven-for-indie-
developers/)

------
sebilasse
having worked in Amsterdam for quite a while, i can highly recommend this
place. It is one of the prettiest and most liveable cities I experienced.
People are down to earth, speak excellent English and love to party.
Everything is accessible by bike (no need for car/public transport). Finding
an affordable place to live is hard, but that's the case with every city/area
worth living. I didn't find it particularly expensive, my feeling is that it's
in the middle range of Europe. Downsides are bad weather, long winter, and if
you're short then 180cm you feel quite insignificant.

------
rdouble
Amsterdam is neat but the Dutch hackers I know all choose to live in
California because of the weather.

~~~
ElDragonRojo
Rain doesn't bother me. Smog bothers me. Tasers bother me. Not being able to
afford healthcare bothers me. My family has been in California for six
generations, and I love it, but you can have it. I'll take the Netherlands.

~~~
rdouble
What made you choose Amsterdam instead of Berlin, Barcelona, Paris or other
European city?

------
rjh29
I thought this was funny:

<http://appsterdam.rs/events> Starts: Wednesday 06/29/2011 - 19:00 Ends:
Wednesday 06/29/2011 - 19:00

US-dates coupled with "Americans can visit for three months without a visa.
Pack up the family for a summer vacation in Europe." make me wonder how much
this thing is targeting Americans over, you know, us Europeans who don't
already have a Silicon Valley.

~~~
DeusExMachina
Don't worry, it's for Europeans and Americans equally. But Europeans (as me)
do not need a visa and can come here anytime without any problem. This is the
only reason for that sentence.

We had around 150 people at the launch keynote. There were some Americans, but
the majority were people from around all Europe.

Edit: BTW, thank you for the report, I notified the person responsible for the
website about the error.

~~~
grimlck
Are the events in english or in dutch?

~~~
ElDragonRojo
Appsterdam events are in English. Other tech events in the city are usually
some mixture of English and Dutch, depending on whether the audience is
international.

------
stickhandle
Ridiculous ... location doesn't matter. GET TO WORK BUILDING SOMETHING USEFUL
!!

------
ianterrell
> _Now that Sofa has been acquired by Facebook, the company’s team (ironically
> enough) will be moving to Palo Alto. But Lee said he doesn’t expect that to
> affect on Appsterdam’s future..._

If the founders don't believe in their own product enough to use it, it's
going to fail.

~~~
DeusExMachina
Sofa contributed, but they are not "the founders" and this is not a "product"
at all. Moreover they are moving because they have been acquired, so it has
nothing to do with Appsterdam (apart of telling that this city is a fertile
ground for good companies).

More on the subject on this post: <http://mur.mu.rs/?p=156>

~~~
ianterrell
It was just a metaphor, and while imperfect I think it does express some grain
of truth (not all of it, naturally).

~~~
Caballera
I don't think what you said had any sort of truth. Sofa has been purchased by
another company, they are moving because they were bought not because they
don't believe in Appsterdam.

~~~
ianterrell
The blog post linked in your grandparent showed that one developer left the
company to stay, because they believed in Appsterdam. The implication is that
other developers did not. Everyone made a choice here, including the owners of
Sofa when they sold.

~~~
DeusExMachina
No, your logic is wrong, the implication is not that. It simply means that
they chose Facebook offer because it made more sense for them, even though
they totally believed in the initiative.

There is no logic implication that says otherwise and definitely is not in
Mike's article, that is just an opinion of yours you are trying to support.

