
Introduction to tangzhong (2018) - luu
https://www.kingarthurflour.com/blog/2018/03/26/introduction-to-tangzhong
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kazinator
> _This Japanese technique_

No Japanese anything is called "tangzhong".

The technique is called "yudane" in Japanese:
[https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B9%AF%E7%A8%AE](https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B9%AF%E7%A8%AE)

That's written 湯種, where "yu" and "tane" are the Japanese native words
corresponding to these character. "Tangzhong" may a romanization of a Chinese
re-reading of this spelling. (For comparison, the Sino-Japanese reading
("onyomi"), if there were one, would likely be "tanshu".)

By the way, we know this is of Japanese origin because the word "tane" has
meanings like "material" and "leaven dough". It's written 種, but that 種
character only has that meaning when it denotes "tane" in Japanese.

~~~
thebooktocome
There is a similar technique in Chinese baking called tangzhong. That is
indeed the pinyin of 湯種.

I doubt there's enough evidence to determine if it was a Japanese or Chinese
invention. Either name is acceptable.

~~~
fermienrico
> Either name is acceptable

Not when the origin is mixed up. If the article said "Chinese technique of
Tangzhong" or the "Japanese technique of Yudane", then its fine. The person
you're replying to is talking about the mix up of the origin. No one is
talking about who came first.

~~~
dnautics
I mean jeez, at that rate we shouldn't be calling it "Japanese" in the first
place, because "Japan" is a chinese word, not a Japanese word.

~~~
carapace
Well, yeah, it's Nippon right?

~~~
ddrt
Nihon

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Spivak
Glad to see there are at least a few bread nerds on HN! Tangzhong is also
sometimes refereed to as a water roux which I think makes a little more sense
for Western cooks since any cook will hear water roux and be 99% of the way
there in terms of knowing what's happening.

Anyway! This idea can work will all kinds of starches because the "trick" is
to trap some additional water in a gelatinized ball and spread that throughout
the dough. It makes for higher total water content while not making to dough
loose to produce more steam, and the starches help the gluten trap it. You can
even use gelatin itself! When you make potato bread/rolls at Thanksgiving
you're using the same trick but with potato starch!

~~~
Tarrosion
I think the point of "additional water" is key! Modernist Bread claims that
tangzhong doesn't increase softness/volume. But, as I read their experiment,
it sounds like they made breads with/without tangzhong but keeping the total
water content constant.

~~~
mjb
That's been my experience.

I often make ciabatta with 95% hydration, of which 1/3rd comes from a water
roux. Without tangzhong the dough is much sticker and harder to handle, which
makes it harder to both form the loaves nicely, and to keep the large bubbles
in the bread. The final product is very similar, though, but the process is
easier.

The approach I take is similar to this one
[http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2984/jasons-quick-
coccodril...](http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2984/jasons-quick-coccodrillo-
ciabatta-bread) with 30g of flour and 150g of water pre-cooked together before
the dough (batter?) is kneaded.

It also helps a lot in sticky doughs. If you like spiced fruit buns around
Easter time, check out King Arthur's milk bread recipe
([https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/japanese-milk-
bread-...](https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/japanese-milk-bread-rolls-
recipe)) and spice and fruit to taste. Best hot cross buns I've eaten.

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anateus
Here's video on this by Cook's Illustrated editor in chief Dan Souza. It goes
a little bit into the science behind the technique and offers a microwave-
based variation:

"How to Transform Flour and Water into the Fluffiest Dinner Rolls| What's
Eating Dan?"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2GWOHcEBcM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2GWOHcEBcM)

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chris_st
Thanks to another bread discussion on HN, I'm a very happy user of Peter
Reinhart's Whole Wheat breads and Bread Baker's Apprentice books.

He does something similar with the overnight soaker/poolish/biga recipes,
which have been highly successful in improving my whole-wheat bread. Is this
similar, or a different technique worth trying?

Thanks!

~~~
ayidnelm
Which thread was this, if you don't mind?

~~~
chris_st
Here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21232209](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21232209)

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James_Henry
As pointed out in this post, tangzhong not only makes soft breads with a nice
crumb, but it also makes them stay soft for a longer time period than you'd
often find. In my opinion and from my own experience, this is the best part of
this technique. In the past my loafs would not really last a week without
being pretty dry, now they stay much more moist and I can have better sandwich
bread with less baking

~~~
dharmon
Different things. A pre-ferment (poolish, biga) is for developing some of the
more complex flavors that a quick / "straight" dough won't give you.

Tangzhong is basically about packing more moisture into a dough while keeping
it easy to handle. Higher hydration doughs are very sticky and take some
experience to work with, but this will let you get something that is like a
75% hydration, but still handles like a 70% hydration dough. (I just made up
these numbers, but you get the point).

For my part, I am fairly experienced with handling up to 80-ish% hydration, so
I never bother with tangzhong, since it just adds another thing to do and
creates more dishes to wash.

~~~
James_Henry
Sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Tangzhong doesn't
just "pack more moisture into a dough while keeping it easy to handle". It
changes the loaf after baking, too. From what I understand this is because the
flour that is cooked in the roux has its gluten destroyed, thus you have a
paste in your dough that isn't imparting structure in the same way and holds
moisture in a different way, even after baking.

So tangzhong can give you a higher hydration, but it's not necessarily the
same thing as your 80-ish% hydration dough.

~~~
dharmon
Meh. I've tried both and don't see the difference. TFA backs up what I'm
saying. If you know of a source that claims it changes the structure in ways
besides what the article says I'd be interested in reading.

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flotzam
Is this incompatible with a substantial crust, or can you have both in one
loaf of bread? (I'm asking as a very novice baker.)

~~~
mjb
I've never had crust issues with this technique, although I do use a steam
injection oven which makes it easier.

It's doesn't seem to have the same effect as enriched dough in making the
crust soft.

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AndrewOMartin
Tangzhong - A technique for softer yeast bread and rolls.

~~~
gegtik
Tangzhong - A technique for softer yeast bread and rolls.

