
The sexes don’t feel pain the same way - pseudolus
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00895-3
======
toomanybeersies
I feel like this article has buried the lede to the point that the actual news
story has been completely missed.

The more newsworthy headline here is that biological and physiological studies
will have varying results across test subjects with differing genetics, and
that testing against genetically identical test subjects will give overly
specific results. This seems to be a fundamental problem in the methodology of
a lot of biological studies.

We've done a very good job at creating an invulnerable lab mouse.

------
jdavis703
The article writes that in 2016 the “National Institutes of Health (NIH) made
it a requirement for grant applicants to justify their choice of the sex of
animals used in experiments.” I can only imagine that some people took this as
yet another example of political correctness creeping in to the public sphere.
Hopefully the results from this study helps to bolster more scientific studies
using diverse populations (including more funding for larger studies that
might be required for more statistical significance).

~~~
insickness
> another example of political correctness

It's also the opposite. There's a strain of far left ideology that claims men
and women are mentally identical, despite much scientific evidence to the
contrary. If they were identical, studies on both genders would be
unnecessary.

~~~
foldr
>There's a strain of far left ideology that claims men and women are mentally
identical

I've never seen anyone actually claim this. Often, people on the right _want_
people on the left to be claiming this because it would be easy to refute. But
in fact what people on the left are usually doing is expressing skepticism
that various aspects of the status quo (such as the distribution of genders in
various professions) are explained primarily by the - typically small -
average cognitive differences between men and women.

~~~
nabnob
I get into debates about this topic all the time. There are definitely people
on the left who claim that sex isn't binary, and that the existence of
intersex people somehow disproves the idea of male/female sexes.

~~~
foldr
That seems like a separate topic. The question at issue is whether people who
can be clearly classified as "men" or "women" according to general consensus
show some cognitive differences on average. I have not seen anyone deny this.

In a similar way, one might argue that "races" don't really have any objective
existence, and yet still acknowledge that e.g. African-Americans are less
likely to go to college than Asian Americans. Such stats aren't invalidated by
the lack of any objective biological definition of "race", or by the existence
of some people with mixed African/Asian heritage, etc. etc.

------
magicalhippo
My girlfriend seems to handle "direct" pain, like hitting stuff, getting cut
or back pain, compared to me. Most times she just keeps going without uttering
much at all.

But she's significantly worse at dealing with cold, heat and high brightness.
One thing is that her body may be worse at regulating temperature, but she
can't stand going out in the cold even for a few minutes unless she's dressed
like she's visiting one of the poles.

Me on the other hand have little problem handling the discomfort of being cold
or too hot. I also have no issue handling very bright sunny days without
sunglasses, while she cannot.

Writing this it seems tempting to view it in an evolutionary perspective...
giving birth is a very painful event one must endure, and when hunting it
certainly helps to keep pushing even though you're too cold or too hot... or
maybe it's just the way the two of us are wired up.

~~~
pen2l
So uhm, I’m a male reporting in with my anecdata. I am just like your
girlfriend.

Can’t tolerate extreme temperatures (especially cold), but have a fairly high
tolerance for physical pain compared to what’s normal I think.

And I am INFAMOUS for needing sunglasses. Whenever I’m visiting my folks, they
know it’s the thing I’ll complain about if I’ll be in the sun and my mom will
usually have bought sunglasses just for me.

~~~
jgibson
Eye colour has a lot to do with how much light your retinas let in, iirc.
Would this explain your sensitivity?

~~~
stevekemp
I'm not sure of a relationship there, but I recall reading reports for a long
time that red-heads felt less pain than other people - as a red-head this
amuses me, but I have no personal data to share.

Random source is random:

[http://sciencenordic.com/redheads-feel-different-kind-
pain](http://sciencenordic.com/redheads-feel-different-kind-pain)

~~~
alsetmusic
My dentist told me that people with red hair are less susceptible to the
effects of novicane. I have red in my beard and always need a second injection
when getting drilled. She said this is the cause.

------
elil17
Obviously these things are highly individual, but my personal experience
totally aligns with this article. I’m a transgender woman and when I started
taking estrogen my pain tolerance increased noticeably over the course of
about a month. Stubbing my toe just doesn’t bother me like it used to

~~~
vanderZwan
I wonder if this knowledge can be used "in reverse", like testing for both
pain pathways to determine one's biological sex in a less binary way. Perhaps
that would give a better indication of which type of treatments will work best
on an individual level, even beyond just pain relief.

~~~
Raphmedia
While those kind of research help show that gender and sex are on a spectrum
and not binaries, I really doubt that you could use this to accurately
pinpoint someone on it.

------
debatem1
I understand the need to test pain response for medical purposes, but I can't
shake the feeling that in a few hundred years we're going to look back on the
use of animals in pain studies and think it's barbarism.

~~~
chroma
I doubt it, but only because from a utilitarian standpoint, using animals for
research purposes is not even a drop in the bucket. Humanity slaughters
billions of animals each year just because they're tasty. At least the
research animals have some benefit beyond a single person's satiation.

I do wonder how long it will be before people start vandalizing statues of
historical figures because they ate meat.

~~~
YeGoblynQueenne
>> Humanity slaughters billions of animals each year just because they're
tasty.

It's very likely that people find meat tasty because it's nutritious, just as
we find sugar and plant fats tasty. Your comment makes it sound as if eating
meat is some kind of indulgence, like eating sweets.

Meat is a rich source of protein and energy. We don't need any more
justification than that to want to eat other animals. There are practical
matters of efficiency and of the ethics of kiling animals at scale, in
industrial farming, that are far more important and interesting to discuss
than the nebulous idea of the morality of eating any meat at all.

At the end of the day- many animals eat other animals' meat. Why is it any
different for humans to do the same?

>> At least the research animals have some benefit beyond a single person's
satiation.

I don't understand this. Even a chicken is large enough to feed two people.
Larger animals can feed a family for several days.

~~~
chroma
> Meat is a rich source of protein and energy. We don't need any more
> justification than that to want to eat other animals.

Jonathan Swift argued the same in _A Modest Proposal_ [1]:

> I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London,
> that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious,
> nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled;
> and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricassee or a ragout.

Swift also argued that eating the babies of the poor also helps prevent famine
and breaks the cycle of poverty. Clearly this has more advantages than eating
chickens or cows!

> At the end of the day- many animals eat other animals' meat. Why is it any
> different for humans to do the same?

Animals also rape each other, kill each other over mates and territory, and
occasionally commit cannibalism. By your logic, why shouldn’t humans do the
same?

> Even a chicken is large enough to feed two people. Larger animals can feed a
> family for several days.

Depends on the chicken. Almost all male chicks are killed within 3 days of
hatching, usually by tossing them into a shredder.[2] I doubt one of them is
very filling.

1\.
[https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal)

2\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling)

~~~
YeGoblynQueenne
Swift's text was satire.

Also: cannibalism, rape, murder etc are illegal in pretty much every
territory. What is your point?

Also also: a chicken thrown to the shredder is not eaten, yes.

Can you please explain what you mean without colorful metaphors and attempts
at humour? I enjoy those as the next person but they don't help me understand
what you mean. If I make an assumption about what you mean and I reply to the
assumption in the same way, with metaphors and similes, and you make an
assumptiona bout what _that_ meant and reply accordingly, we'll lose the plot
very, very quickly.

------
hirundo
If the physiology of pain differs between the sexes, does the subjective
experience of pain differ too? Even at the same reported severity? For all we
know, if a female and a male both identify a color as blue, the two sexes may
be experiencing different colors and attaching it the same label. Same goes
for pain.

Imagine what a boon a technological fix for this could be. If we could record
the quality and quantity of pain felt by one organism and play it back at high
fidelity for another organism, it could be an effective torture device ... but
also a way to promote empathy across sexes, races, and species.

But it's probably a fix that will remain a fantasy permanently, because if
physiology underlies the difference, one organism would have to
physiologically become something else in order to experience the same pain as
an other. Probably we're stuck with the same old limited channel for
communicating subjective experience: art.

~~~
3JPLW
This is the premise of one of the short stories in Black Mirror's "Black
Museum" episode (written by Penn Jillette, actually). A doctor uses it as a
diagnostic device and then, as you might expect, the plot turns dark. It's
very well done.

------
randomacct3847
The first thing I thought to myself when I read this headline is that certain
people are probably going to get offended by someone pointing out
physiological differences between sexes.

~~~
dunstad
I can understand why you might find that a silly reaction. It is indeed
obvious that there are many physiological differences between men and women.
However, one reason I think people get worried about this kind of research is
that it can be cited as justification for treating men and women differently
in situations where it is certainly not warranted.

I'm not saying there's no value to research like this, but I also believe that
if it makes some people uneasy, their fears come from a good place.

~~~
maps
But that is a really overblown and damaging worry. This study gives us actual
facts that we probably need to treat men and women differently to help them
both out better in dealing with pain. We need more studies which look at
gender differences, not fewer. Justifying that worry because it makes people
uneasy is denying reality and pretty unethical in my view.

------
earthboundkid
Reporting this kind of stuff without drawing the bell curves should be
criminal. Duh, the curves mostly overlap, but maybe they have slightly
different peak heights or median locations. If you're not drawing the curves,
you're deliberately misleading your readers and wasting everyone's time.

------
dang
Related story from a couple weeks ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19438722](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19438722)

------
known
Women display different cardiac symptoms from men
[https://outline.com/aYwSJV](https://outline.com/aYwSJV)

------
chicob
Fibromyalgia has been reported to affect twice as much women than men.[1] Now
I wonder whether this has to do with pain tolerance during diagnosis or some
biological difference affecting epidemiology.

[1]
[https://doi.org/10.1001%2Fjama.2014.3266](https://doi.org/10.1001%2Fjama.2014.3266)

------
kantos2
Sorry, but no
[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/07/050705004113.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/07/050705004113.htm)

~~~
Raphmedia
Science is rarely "yes" and "no". It's much more complicated than that.

This link seem to say that women experience more pain over a lifetime, not
necessary when testing for a large number of different triggers and comparing
them to men.

"Research is telling us that women experience a greater number of pain
episodes across their lifespan than men, in more bodily areas and with greater
frequency."

They also only tested one trigger that is way more related to temperature
sensitivity than actual pain tolerance.

"To carry out this research, scientists asked volunteers to place their non-
dominant arm in a warm water bath (37 degrees centigrade) for two minutes
before transferring the hand into an ice water bath maintained at a
temperature of 1 - 2 degrees centigrade."

------
BurningFrog
The obvious theory for different pain sensitivity between men and women is
that women need to handle childbirth.

Since that is unique to our species, animal testing probably won't be helpful
there.

~~~
reallydude
> Since that is unique to our species,

Much of the animal kingdom has the same issue of painful childbirth. What you
mean by "handle", I can only guess. Perhaps something about recovery and a
desire repeat.

~~~
saagarjha
> Much of the animal kingdom has the same issue of painful childbirth

Do they? As far as I was aware, humans have a uniquely awkward childbirth due
to our cranial size.

~~~
mcv
Not only that. No other animal menstruates quite like humans do either;
there's been an arms race between the placenta and the womb, and rather than a
safe place to protect the fetus, the womb is more of a safe place to isolate
the fetus and manage its access to the mother's resources while keeping the
mother safe.

Human pregnancy is messed up beyond the obvious issue of squeezing our large
brain through out narrow running hips.

~~~
fifnir
> an arms race between the placenta and the womb, and rather than a safe place
> to protect the fetus, the womb is more of a safe place to isolate the fetus
> and manage its access to the mother's resources while keeping the mother
> safe.

I don't see anything human-specific here, this would have been true for all
placental animals no?

~~~
mcv
It doesn't sound inherently human-specific, but somehow it is. Well, other
primates have it to a lesser extent, but other placental mammals don't, and we
have it worse than other primates. Why only primates have this arms race
between placenta and womb, and why humans have it worse than any primate, I
don't know. But it's definitely a thing. It's the reason why humans menstruate
while non-primate mammals don't.

~~~
fifnir
Interesting, I did some more digging and found this for anyone interested in a
nice paper:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5121266/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5121266/)

