
In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party - MiriamWeiner
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20180729-why-brazilians-are-always-late
======
jacobwilliamroy
"My impression as to your cheap labour was soon disillusioned when I saw your
people at work. No doubt they are lowly paid, but the return is equally so; to
see your men at work made me feel that you are a very satisfied and easy-going
race who reckon time is no object. When I spoke to some managers they informed
me that it was impossible to change the habits of a national heritage."

This excerpt appears in Ha-Joon Chang's book "Bad Samaritans" and it was
written by an Australian consultant with regards to Japan in August 1915.
Chang also mentions Sidney Gulick's 1903 book "Evolution of the Japanese"
which also stereotypes the Japanese as "'easy-going' and 'emotional' people
who possessed qualities like 'lightness of heart, freedom from all anxiety for
the future, living chiefly for the present.'"

I don't have details on Brazil, but I am almost certain that this "Brazilian
time" is just a symptom of some completely reversible, systemic problem that
is making it difficult to do business with high-technologies in Brazil.

~~~
aikinai
That’s fascinating! Does the book have any insight into how Japan made the
complete 180° in I guess a few decades?

The Meiji Restoration was already incredible but I thought the work ethic was
there throughout and helped make it possible. I had no idea there was also a
revolution of work ethic.

~~~
zhdc1
Education. The Japanese Empire was one of the first, if not first, nation in
the world to have mandatory schooling that was accessible by a large majority
of it's population.

They beat the Brits by about a decade.

~~~
coldtea
Yep. Mass education (as opposed to high end elite education) can turn a nation
of free people into slaves (or, as Japanese call it, 社畜: corporate livestock).
After a century of that, they're losing their collective will to live, too
[1].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan)

~~~
oblio
So the lesson you learned is that mass education is bad? ...

~~~
coldtea
Not mass education as in the abstract concept of "educating the masses", but
mass education as its actually practiced.

------
alokrai
Richard Feynman on Brazil:

1\. “That evening I went for a walk in town, and came upon a small crowd of
people standing around a great big rectangular hole in the road—it had been
“dug for sewer pipes, or something—and there, sitting exactly in the hole, was
a car. It was marvelous: it fitted absolutely perfectly, with its roof level
with the road. The workmen hadn’t bothered to put up any signs at the end of
the day, and the guy had simply driven into it. I noticed a difference: When
we’d dig a hole, there’d be all kinds of detour signs and flashing lights to
protect us. There, they dig the hole, and when they’re finished for the day,
they just leave.”

2\. “When I got to the center, we had to decide when I would give my
lectures—in the morning, or afternoon. Lattes said, “The students prefer the
afternoon.” “So let’s have them in the afternoon.” “But the beach is nice in
the afternoon, so why don’t you give the lectures in the morning, so you can
enjoy the beach in the afternoon.” “But you said the students prefer to have
them “in the afternoon.” “Don’t worry about that. Do what’s most convenient
for you! Enjoy the beach in the afternoon.” So I learned how to look at life
in a way that’s different from the way it is where I come from. First, they
weren’t in the same hurry that I was. And second, if it’s better for you,
never mind!”

Excerpt From: Richard Phillips Feynman. “Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman”:
Adventures of a Curious Character.”

~~~
brbrbrbrbr
To point #1. That happens still to today. It is a matter of education and
resources. Unfortunately, both are low in Brazil.

To point #2. Any guest in Brazil will be treated differently during their
visit.

[https://jornalistaheitormenezes.blogspot.com/2015/11/o-carna...](https://jornalistaheitormenezes.blogspot.com/2015/11/o-carnaval-
de-richard-feynman-no-brasil.html) has some interesting historical context
about Feynman's trips to Brazil.

~~~
sonnyblarney
As to 1, no, it's neither 'education' nor 'lack of resources' really.

It's a matter of conscientiousness and responsibility. Even if there were no
signs immediately available, nobody with an ounce of decency would leave a
large hole unmarked. Signs are not expensive, if they're not available it's
because of a lack of intelligent and responsible acting somewhere else in in
the value chain.

As for #2, it's still a lack of conscientiousness. The students should (at
least try) to go to their lecture, that the prof should try to give. Surely, a
visit to Brazil warrants a quick hop to the beach at minimum but there's no
reason people can't do what they are supposed to do all around.

99% of the world's problems would be solved if we all just acted with very
basic levels of conscientiousness and responsibility: show up, do the basic
work, think a little bit, be nice, don't be corrupt, try to do good work ...
commensurate with increasing levels of responsibility obviously, but 'hole
diggers' still need to do their jobs with responsibility and a little bit of
pride.

~~~
jklinger410
I love your response because it's a great take-down of the "everything is
relative and cultural" argument, which I have always thought comes from an
overactive imagination.

When you start to reduce life down to simplistic concepts, everything is not
relative and cultural. Sure, maybe on the fringes (.01%) there are situations
that are heavily influenced by those. But for most things in life (near or on
mazlowe's hierarchy) it is almost like math, or a logic puzzle.

Brazilians don't leave uncovered holes in the street because of something
entirely logical within their own culture. They leave because they are lazy
and do not care for the level of danger it represents to others. To imply
otherwise is simply dressing a pig.

~~~
jackvezkovic
> They leave because they are lazy...

Probably sounds better in the original German.

These proofs by anecdotes are really fast food for the biased mind.

Just as a thought experiment, if Brazilians are inherently 'lazy' as you say
and it has nothing to do with the environment that they are in and its
incentives, then are they also lazy abroad? Do they also forget to put signs
when they dig holes? Do they do a worse service in restaurants? Do they work
less than their coworkers? Are they also consistently late? Is this not the
case because they are from a biased sample of non-lazy Brazilians that leave
the country? Or maybe Brazilians are not inherently lazy?

Just a few questions for the debate.

~~~
jklinger410
I don't care if they are Brazilians or Norwegian. If you leave an open hole
for someone to fall down you are being negligent.

The whole crux of my argument is to remove the concept of culture from the
discussion unless it is absolutely necessary.

Sorry to bow out but I think you are barking up the wrong tree trying to get
me to say something unique about Brazil. Human laziness and general awfulness
is universal.

~~~
jackvezkovic
> I don't care if they are Brazilians or Norwegian. If you leave an open hole
> for someone to fall down you are being negligent.

We agree then.

> _Brazilians_ don't leave uncovered holes in the street because of something
> entirely logical within their own culture. _They_ leave because they are
> lazy...

I guess it is fair to say that your point was quite hard to grasp based on
your last sentence, seeing the other comments as well. If you say "Brazilians
don't leave uncovered holes because of...", then it seems you are making a
point about the whole population in a generalized sense. Therefore "they are
lazy" also refer to this generalization.

~~~
jklinger410
Sorry, I was using Brazilians and "they" in the context of the thread. I was
not attempting to make assertions, but carry them through the conversation.

Sorry that it came across that way, and for any offense!

------
themodelplumber
I noticed how this created some tension between Japanese and Brazilians &
Peruvians, when I lived in Japan. One Japanese friend, who was a really
impressive guy and really "outside the box" for a Japanese person, was even
shaken by the difference after a while. It was unsettling to be seated in a
meeting and watch people walk in late with HUGE smiles on their faces,
greeting everyone. He told me one day, "in the US, like if you're in high
school, walking into class late is kind of _kakkoii_, right? But here in
Japan, arriving just a little bit early--that is _kakkoii_."

Quite a few of my other Japanese friends made nervous comments when we were
waiting for Brazilian friends, or after they'd arrive. "sasugani [so-and-so,
the Brazilian] hahahahaha" they'd say, and it was clear that they were
annoyed.

After traveling a bit more and studying psychology a bit more, it's clear that
the preference really does vary by the individual, even though patterns like
those in the article exist within a populace. Some Japanese really don't care
when you arrive, and some Brazilians are really timely people. Their personal
strengths come from some position along the robotically-scheduled/free-
floating continuum. Culturally, maybe they make arrangements to fit in a
little better, or maybe they don't and they're just the weirdo. No matter what
the preference is, if we can be flexible or tactical about how we use it, we
gain some advantages.

------
tchaffee
São Paulo is a city of over 12 million people, the largest city in the
southern hemisphere of our planet, and is almost 10% of the Brazilian
population. Almost everyone I meet with in SP is on time for work related
meetings. I haven't noticed a difference between SP, the UK, the USA, or many
of the other places I've worked. Generalizing about an entire country when
that generalization is wrong for its biggest city makes for a good headline,
but it's not responsible journalism.

~~~
gassiss
I am born and raised in Rio de Janeiro, and am very punctual. For business
meetings most people don't come up late, but for social gatherings they almost
always do. It's frustrating because it seems like I will never learn my lesson
and always arrive punctually even if I don't intend to

~~~
thanatropism
This. People are conflating social mores with business practices.

São Paulo is a much more globalized city than Rio, which is really navel-
gazing. (Most families in Rio can trace their ancestry centuries back, while
São Paulo is usually the largest $(nationality-descent) population outside
$(homecountry). This makes for cultural differences.)

But: it's not like carioca customs bleed over to the workplace any more than,
say, West Texan customs do. I mean, at my workplace we wear suits but not
ties; whenever in São Paulo we tie up. That's most of it.

------
mattlondon
In the UK as a native Englishman I would be totally ok with people turning up
late to a party/BBQ/whatever. No problem (although not for a dinner party
where you need to prepare etc)

But if you agree to _meet_ people at a certain time, then being more than
10-15 minutes late without letting the person know is just rude, selfish and
inconsiderate. Sure problems come up - these days there is zero excuse to not
let the people know you are going to be late and give them an estimated ETA.

By being deliberately/incompetently late in those scenarios where you've
agreed on a time, you're telling the person whose time you are wasting that
you value your time more than you value theirs - i.e. that you consider
yourself and your time as more important than them, and so _fuck you - I 'll
get there when I want_ and you can wait for me since I am the most important
one in this meeting and you and your time is worthless...

Are you late because you are just a bit disorganised? Please get a grip make
an effort because you're a grown up and the people you are meeting had to make
an effort to get there too.

Are you late because you are just an arsehole? Take a long look at yourself in
the mirror.

tl;dr - depends on context.

~~~
kiproping
I am African and I can say that it depends on your culture.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _it depends on your culture_

It does, and if you're trying to co-ordinate anything with a material number
of people, one must recognize it's not a useful cultural aspect to carry
forward. Timeliness allows for complex coordination. (It also allows for
economic interfacing with the world's advanced economies.)

------
andersonmvd
I hope you all remember that Brazil is too big to assume that everyone is the
same, thus everyone will be late to all appointments. It happens a lot, yes.
But be careful to label people in advance. Many (!) Brazilians work overseas,
including in Germany, and I'm sure those are not late as the article suggests
for example :)

Also, what would be crazy for many people that live in small countries
compared to Brazil, is that many workers live far away from their job or
school. Up to 3 hours for a single way. It is also expected to have something
not working in their way to their destination.

It's not a black and white thing. Writing a generic bold statement tends
always to be harmful. Damn human brain that loves to find patterns to simplify
information processing :)

~~~
lagadu
People act based on the standards of the places around them.

My example: I'm Portuguese but have lived in Denmark for quite a few years
now, in Denmark I'm about as punctual as everyone else around here (which is
mostly punctual, not as much as Germans though, who tend to show up before the
agreed time) but when I'm visiting down south, I go back to the standard of
showing up a little after the agreed time.

In other words: when in Rome do as the Romans do.

------
hn_throwaway_99
I don't think this is just a Brazilian thing. When I throw parties in the US
_nobody_ shows up until 30 mins after the start time, and the peak of people
showing up is between 60 and 90 minutes after start time.

The exception to this is dinner parties, where people are much more punctual
because they know you're planning the meal timeline.

~~~
acchow
If there's 20 people going to a party, does anyone think the "start time" is
really when you're supposed to be there? I think of it more as "don't come
before this time".

~~~
poulsbohemian
Depends on the culture. Historically if you told a German 5:00, that meant
5:00 - nor 4:59, not 5:01. "Fashionably late" is an American thing.

~~~
acchow
I just don't understand how this works at a house party.

You invite 20 people over for a BBQ at 2pm. Here's possible conversations I
can envision in America:

"Thanks for the invite! I actually have a haircut appointment at 2, but I'll
come right after"

or

"Thanks for the invite, but I have a a haircut appointment at 2..." "what? No
worries! Come join whenever you can; we want to see you!" "Great. I will
thanks!"

So how would it go in Germany?

"Sorry, I am busy and can't make it"

~~~
fritkot
This doesn't happen. People are just applying stereotypes to every possible
context and situation. Germans are perfectly capable of coming to a BBQ later
than the scheduled start time, although it's true that unless it's impossible
for them to make their schedule fit with yours, if you tell them 5, then 5 it
is.

Because of this, I would say it's even more important to schedule things
sufficiently ahead of time. Making up plans only 2 or 3 days in advance, when
weekend plans are mostly settled and they can't properly schedule around your
event, will just stress people out.

------
rbanffy
I arrived on time, my hostess was already dressed up, and I made myself useful
helping with preparing the food. We had a long time to talk while waiting for
the other guests.

A month later, we were dating. A couple years later, we married.

Sometimes being too early is good. :-)

------
sdrothrock
For anyone interested in this type of cultural difference, I would strongly
recommend Erin Meyer's "The Culture Map"
([https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KSXNFJQ](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KSXNFJQ)),
which presents and argues for a series of scales that create a heuristic
useful for comparing (not judging!) different cultures.

The goal is to realize and understand the differences so that you can
anticipate and cope despite culture gaps.

I've read it myself, had two coworkers read it, and have recommended it to
numerous other people who work in multicultural contexts and everyone has
found it useful and insightful. It really recalibrated my personal way of
looking at the world and people from other cultures.

~~~
ume
+1 for The Culture Map. I would recommend for both old timers and new comers
to multi-national/ multi-cultural workplaces.

------
dakial1
That's not overall in Brazil. I live in Sao Paulo and it's certainly not rude
to arrive on time or closer to that time. The time is usually a reference of
"arrive after that time" and people will arrive in the hour or two after the
time set. Usually closer friends will arrive earlier and not so close friends
will arrive late because the party will be already full.

~~~
gota
I have no idea where the author got the generalization that this is a rule
"everywhere in Brazil". It's at most more or less a custom in _Rio_ , and no
other places that I know of. In southern Brazil not arriving within half hour
of the appointes time is in fact disrespectful

Besides __this is only for social appointments __. Try to arrive a couple
hours late for a meeting and you 'll find yourself talking to your boss aboit
how this article misled you

~~~
jpatokal
I used to work in Indonesia, with Indonesian clients. Scheduling a meeting for
10 AM and not having anybody show up until 11 was normal; showing up _four
hours late_ and shrugging it off with _" macet"_ (traffic) was not unusual.
(Then again, Jakarta jams really _can_ be that bad.)

They have a word for it too: _jam karet_ , or "rubber time".

------
scardine
Brazil is a huge country and and saying Brazilians are always late is like
saying all North Americans are ignorant of non-local history and cultures.

I have a profound respect for other people's time and demand the same respect
for mine. This is not uncommon in Sao Paulo city.

~~~
gassiss
Same here, and I live in Rio.

------
lucantini
As a Brazilian myself, I hate this. People are not late to work related stuff,
but on a social setting this is ridiculous! I'm very punctual in everything
that I do and always get to events on time. I hate the fact that being late is
considered "cultural" and not a huge middle finger to other people's time.

~~~
brabel
I was surprised to find that in Sweden, it's very similar to Brazil: people
never come to parties on time. A delay of 30 minutes to 1.5 hours is about
right. So, it's not just a "poor" country thing, I think.

------
lucb1e
> I used to have a boss that would call us from home saying he was caught in
> traffic but would be there soon, but we could actually hear his shower
> running!

Wait but that's not just being "oh look how cool and laid-back we are here",
that's just lying. He's not caught in unexpected traffic, he's just running
late.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems objectively worse than agreeing to a time and
then being there. With this system, you agree to a time and then have to know
unspoken rules. Why not just speak the rules? Because then we're back to the
"not so relaxed" actual time. But unspoken rules will always catch some people
by surprise, either because they are not from the region, their family has
different practices, whatever, but it will mess things up sooner or later. I
can't imagine hospitals, courts, or other vital components of society are
happy with the attitude, either, and while it says that people try to be on
time for business meetings (I assume one's surgery would fall in the same
category), I imagine that some of the attitude still shows and things are less
efficient because of it. I wonder if this system will still hold up when the
country develops further.

~~~
coldtea
More laid-back countries are also more laid-back about "lying" about such a
thing.

It's just a polite way to say you're running late. Nobody cares whether it's
actually the traffic or not. It's like saying to someone "you look nice in
this shirt" when they don't.

~~~
lucb1e
> Nobody cares whether it's actually the traffic or not.

Not sure if that's just a Dutch thing, but I would care as to why someone is
late. There isn't an accident on the same road every day, so traffic can be a
legit reason to be late; having forgotten to set an alarm clock, however, is
totally someone's own fault (under normal circumstances, of course).

~~~
coldtea
Yeah, but more laid-back cultures (time-wise) don't care much about assigning
fault.

------
jimmy1
I work with brazillians often, we have an office there. It's easy to
accommodate as well -- I just do the same thing I do with my mother: tell her
the start time is way earlier than it actually is, and then she is on time.
For example if dinner is at 6:45, I tell her dinner is at 6:15, and expect her
to arrive 30 minutes late.

You have to tweak it a bit for different situations (for example, a meeting,
is about -15, a conference call, -10, but an after work event is roughly -30
to -60, but works well.

~~~
gota
I'm not accusng you of lying but this story is extremely suspicious. It
conflicts completely with my professional and personal experience, which I'm
pretty sure is close to the general truth.

Unless you have found yourself working with a very peculiar group of people,
you are being duped or just exaggerating to the point of being outright wrong.

It is absolutely not a custom anywhere in Brazil, not even in Rio, to be late
(_at all_) for professional appointments.

_Especially_ systematically late that a "system" like that is put in place
(and supposedly works). To be blunt, the idea that you could correct such
behavior from professional adults by duping them with altered schedules is
even childish.

If this is indeed the case, please post the name of the company so we can
blacklist everyone that works in that office

~~~
TheCoreh
It really depends on the industry, I guess.

My observation, being born and having lived in Brazil for my whole life, is
that there's a power/authority/seniority dynamic involved, too: If you have a
meeting with a customer, you should be on time, but it's okay for them to be
late. When meeting with your boss, they'll probably be late, but you probably
shouldn't be. Internal meetings within the company usually start later than
meetings with other companies. Once you know people professionally for a
longer time, you'll also be more comfortable arriving later.

~~~
always_good
There's definitely a dominance element here in Mexico, too.

My Mexican friend traveled a lot here for work to meet with various
executives. These executives would be the ones who set the time.

She'd drive four hours and arrive at their office for a 8am 1-on-1 meeting and
be directed to a sofa outside their room. She told me often 30+ minutes would
pass and the guy would be in there twiddling on his smartphone, she could see
him right through the blinds.

It was like some proof of time-burn to remind you that they had the power.

------
mikorym
Similarly to Feynman's quote on the hole dug in the road, in South Africa, it
is also common to simply leave a construction site.

However, the comment that I want to make relates more to how South Africans
are often late and why the reasons are _different_ to Brazillians.

In South African English there exists a word "now now". This was adopted from
Afrikaans, which is largely based on Dutch. The existence of this word is
probably due to something that is true of the larger continent and relates to
_African time_. In my words: time does not pass uniformly, rather it passes
with events, such as rain, sunset or the latest regime change.

In any case, what "now now" means is either: in a short while, in a (not so
short) while, now; or even, a short while ago. The English, as usual, only had
one part of the story. In fact, in the original Afrikaans, there exists
multiple variations of this term that all have closely related meanings: "net-
nou", "nou-nou", "net-net" and "nou-net".

A shrewd observer would notice that we covered all four combinations
diligently. The first two terms are almost identical in meaning and correspond
loosely to "now now", the second means "by a small margin" and the last refers
to "a short while ago" (thankfully, it is always in the past). Moreover, when
used in isolation, "nou" can either mean "right now" or "in a (short) while",
although you can expect a long wait if someone says that to you.

~~~
Cthulhu_
For comparison, the Dutch "nou" means "now" as what it means in English -
right now. "net" means "just", so "nou net" means "just now", or a short while
ago.

~~~
mikorym
This [1] wikipedia page also makes reference of "net-nou" and "nou-nou".

So too does this [2] article, although "nou-nou" certainly is sometimes used
to refer to the past tense. I personally use "net-nou" to especially to refer
to the future tense, so I am not sure whether the article's comments are
historically more correct (i.e. that "nou-nou" should be future and "net-nou"
should be past tense).

What I can say is that, in context, the words do seem to have different
emotional value.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_diaspora_in_Africa#Lan...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_diaspora_in_Africa#Language)
[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_South_African_slang_wo...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_South_African_slang_words#N%E2%80%93Z)

------
epx
I am Brazilian but I really appreciate punctuality, to the point of walking
away from a date because she was 15 min late. I have friends that are more or
less punctual, and others that are always late.

One characteristic of the latter is, they can't say "no" to anyone. Generally
they get late because someone else asked them a favor or to do something
"urgent". This trait affects them in many other areas of life as well:
overpromising, overcommitting, etc.

------
saosebastiao
I can at least vouch for the fact that Cariocas have a tough time adjusting to
normal Anglo punctuality demands. As a Portuguese speaking student I ended up
with quite a few Brazilian friends and many of the Cariocas ended up flunking
out of school. Not because they were dumb or didn't work hard, but because
they couldn't show up on time for tests and never understood why they couldn't
just take a test two hours late.

~~~
weregiraffe
>not dumb >never understood why they couldn't just take a test two hours late.

I see a contradiction here.

~~~
saagarjha
It's a cultural thing. If that's the way the world has always worked for you,
wouldn't it be surprising, at least for a while, to see that other people do
things differently?

~~~
nradov
No it wouldn't be surprising for even a moment. When I travel to foreign
countries I try to be a good guest and follow the local standards of behavior
as best I can. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

------
Gustomaximus
Having worked in London I appreciate this article being on the BBC. At least
in the company I was employed people tended to be late to meetings as standard
(10-30min) with the usual tube/traffic excuse....every week as thought this
caught them by surprise each time.

It became a problem with meeting rooms being booked but empty so you would use
and then get kicked out 20min past the booked time as the people turned up.
The company eventually brought a rule if you were not in a room within 15min
of the booking start time you lost it to avoid this problem.

I think some people in this enviroment would play to it as 'I'm so busy &
important' but I always felt it was such a economic cost to the company having
a bunch of people sitting there making small talk while someone was delayed.

------
nocoder
This is pretty interesting. I am from India & you can observe something
similar in India with a lot of people not all. We are not the most anal about
being on time & most meetings never start on time. Parties or group dinners
will never ever start on time. There is this thing called "Indian Stretchable
Time", a funny variation on IST. I always wonder how much of this has to do
with our cultural concept of time. As per Indian mythology, time is not linear
but circular, there is a cycle of birth & death till you attain moksh
(salvation). The other thing I notice vs. west is that people in Indian
offices chat with coworkers a lot more.

~~~
ashwinm
Adding to Indian mythological perspective, It views life in infinite terms.
You are living in only one of the infinite number of life so why do you have
to be in hurry?. Against western view of life as only one.

------
pseudonym2
I'm from a Mediterranean country and it's customary to be 30 min to an hour
late to parties. Distant acquintances and people that don't really feel like
going will arrive close to 2 hours late. I thought this was the norm in the
Western world. Is it not? Do folks in the English-speaking world arrive on the
minute?

~~~
saagarjha
Not to the minute, but yes, most people usually show up within a fifteen
minutes in either direction.

~~~
orwin
Don't do this in France. It's considered "polite" to arrive ~30minute late if
you're invited, however, if you arrive early, you will be asked to help while
the host/hostess take his/her last minute shower. I don't mind and i like
being early, because the most meaningfull discussion are made there, but non-
Latin foreigners can have some troubles to adjust.

------
wurst
If any appointment is set to start at 7pm, I'm there at 7pm sharp or otherwise
inform the host in advance that I'm arriving late and give an accurate
estimate on when I will arrive (+-5 min). I find anything else disrespectful
towards the host and, depending on the kind of appointment, towards the rest
of the participants.

I guess some stereotypes on Germans are true after all...

~~~
nasredin
There's a scene in a Homeland's episode.

"Hey you are X mins late. This is Germany man!"

I thought it was a bit too expositional IMHO.

And of course this was set in a sex shop.

------
morog
In South Africa we have a similar concept of time, 'now' means in 15 minutes
to a half hour, 'now now' can mean anything from 15 minutes to 3 hours, 'just
now' can mean anything from a few hours to a few days. A meeting scheduled for
12 will unlikely have anyone in the room at 12. In contrast to our Swiss
business partners where a meeting at 12 will start within 15 seconds of 12 -
I've learnt to keep a calendar with reminders since working with the Swiss.

Arriving within the first hour of a party start time means you are
volunteering to prepare food, make a fire and move chairs. Never go hungry to
a braai (barbecue) as lunch will be eaten at 6pm and dinner around midnight!

------
axilmar
While everyone here says it's a cultural difference between Brazilians and,
for example, Germans, please let me express a different viewpoint.

To me it seems the reason Brazilians (and others, for example, Greeks,
Indians, Italians etc) are not very punctual is the weather conditions.

The weather conditions, which are more relaxed in these countries, have
allowed people to form a culture where they can be more relaxed in their
social life.

On the other hand, in places where weather conditions are more difficult to
tackle, for example colder, being punctual, being direct etc saves all the
involved parties a lot of effort in communication and co-operation.

~~~
guilhas
Also in Portugal. my boss used to say "I'll start scheduling meetings 15min
later so everyone shows at same time."

We are also less strict on leaving time, compared with Germany, or UK.

------
silveira
In my experience, this particular generalization is almost always correct.

The many excuses as lack of reliable transportation does not really apply
because I see the same behavior when Brazilians are in countries that have
said infrastructure.

To be on time is a developed skill and as I Brazilian myself I surely had to
develop that skill late in life. However being on time among Brazilians costed
me dearly. I had many problems, fights, and arguments because I expect some
degree of punctuality of others Brazilians. I have countless personal accounts
of that. For someone not used to it, let me quantify it: I'm talking lateness
from 30 minutes to 4 hours.

The root cause is that lateness is highly tolerated in Brazil, and is
inherently contagious. If someone is always 10 minutes late to an appointment,
someone else, who values their own time, will be not less than 10 minutes
late. Next one will be not less than that, incrementally, each more late than
the other. The more people, the worst, and we are more than 200 millions.

For people who think that being late is not a big deal, imagine being 10
minutes late for a meeting with 6 other people. That's 6 times 10 minutes, 60
minutes of people's time waiting you. Wasted time. Then there is the time lost
due context switching, pinging you to see where you are, and being late to
other appointments. It's disrespectful and selfish to be late. You are showing
that you care only about yourself and not about other people's time.

Yes, I know that anyone can be late, but please without false symmetries. It's
an endemic problem among Brazilians and we need to fix it. Please, if you know
you have this problem, stop making excuses and do something about it. Buy a
watch, use Google Calendar, it's not even that hard.

------
micheljansen
Brazil is a huge country though and while I also always believed the
stereotype of the laid back, beach-going, bossa nova listening Brazilian, I
found it is not at all universal. São Paulo, for example, feels as hurried as
a major city like London or New York, complete with high-pressure business
culture, overcrowded public transport, killer traffic etc.

~~~
hutzlibu
"São Paulo, for example, feels as hurried as a major city like London or New
York, complete with high-pressure business culture, overcrowded public
transport, killer traffic etc."

So the measuerment of being reliable is the stress factor in the city? How
sad.

I really like reliability .. to lower stress. And hurry only, if needed, not
as default.

~~~
brbrbrbrbr
Yeah predictability and reliability can give a sense of comfort but in a big
city there are so many variables out one's control that it is easy to let
things be and live life on its own terms sometimes.

------
neom
My girlfriend was born and raised in Brazil. If I had a nickle of every time
she is late, I swear, I'd be sipping margaritas on a beach.

------
3x3matrix
I recently immigrated to Germany and have since become close friends with a
Brazilian expat.

Within our first few weeks, we made plans to meet with some of our new German
friends at 9 o'clock. By 9:10 both of our phones were flooded with messages
asking where we were. We of course had not even left our houses yet.

The differences in culture when it comes to social settings and punctuality
are very real.

------
dudus
Since this is all anecdotes anyway I'll post mine. I was working in Brazil and
even though our main office was in Sao Paulo we were interviewing for our Rio
branch. Of the 12 candidates we were expecting only 2 showed up, both late due
to traffic. The other 10 just never showed up. Their excuses varied but people
around the office shrugged the phenomenon as expected due to the early time of
the interview and the fact that it "deu praia" meaning it was sunny and they
probably just went to the beach instead.

It was a bit mind boggling to me since I was used to the behavior in Sao Paulo
where delays were possible but usually not common and no shows were rare.

------
geomark
Reminds me a lot of Thailand. We call it "Thai time". And it does seem to be
worse in Bangkok than in rural areas. Despite the terrible traffic and
resulting delays, Bangkokians are used setting out for a party at the time the
party is supposed to start, thus arriving an hour or more late.

~~~
willio58
That’s funny, around Tahoe we call it “Tahoe time”. It’s really normal for
people to be late here. It’s not taken as personally as other areas I’ve lived
in. It’s something about that lake..

~~~
themodelplumber
There are a lot of these and they usually do seem to fit the
groups/locations/corporations in question. I've heard Mexicans refer to
"Mexican time," and I've heard Mormons refer to "Mormon time," and various
corporations also have equivalent terms.

Amusingly, a lot of these terms seem to have their origin in people who were
really annoyed by the phenomena.

~~~
dingo_bat
In India we call it "Indian time'. Nobody is expected to arrive at a party
venue before 1 hour past the announced time.

~~~
kittiepryde
Does everyone state times an hour earlier than they want to correct for this
rule? Is this just time for the party's hosts to perform a certain function? (
Punctuality is heavily engrained in me, and I can't understand the point of a
time if its to be disregarded as a matter of policy )

~~~
dingo_bat
> Does everyone state times an hour earlier than they want to correct for this
> rule?

Certainly seems like that to me. I've arrived at wedding functions at the
exact time mentioned in the invite and even the hosts weren't present. I had
to wait 30 min for them to show up.

------
ian0
Also common in Indonesia, its called "rubber time".

Ive grown to like it! Your never in a rush, don't have to worry too much about
unforeseen traffic. You can arrive late to meetings that tend to drag but can
start without you.

Maybe we take timeliness too seriously.

------
everdev
I feel the same way even though I'm not Brazilian. If someone arrives early or
right on time, I feel annoyed about having to entertain while I finish setting
up or getting myself ready.

I appreciate it when people arrive 15-45min after the party start time.

~~~
wingspar
So you’re late... To your own party... :)

~~~
brbrbrbrbr
better late than never. Yes, I know people who didn't make to their birthday
party. Surprise! Oh no..

------
cassianoleal
As a Brazilian living in the UK, I have to say that this is pure bullshit.

First of all, the author makes the (very common and disconcerting) mistake of
thinking cariocas represent Brazilians in general. Cariocas have their own way
of life and it's very unfortunate for our image that they are the ones most
foreigners think of when they think of the stereotypical Brazilian (there
isn't one).

I can't speak for the whole continental-sized country or the whole of its 200+
million population but in the south it's definitely not rude to be on time. It
might not be the norm but it's absolutely acceptable. I usually try to be
10-30 minutes later than scheduled but mostly because I'm slightly socially
awkward and don't like to be the first one in.

On the other hand, a few months ago I went to my (British) friend's party in
London. I was a bit distressed as I was about 45 minutes late. When I rang the
bell I was greeted by my friend with a warm welcome and the news that I was
the first guest in.

BBC can take their preconceptions and stereotypes elsewhere. Or at least make
it clear in the title that they're talking about a VERY SMALL percentage of
the population of the country.

------
socrates1998
This would definitely drive me crazy. I have a couple of American friends who
are like this and it's really hard for me to not get angry when they are 45
minutes late to something.

I honestly do not give a shit what time someone shows up to a social function
as long as they say an accurate time.

If you want to meet at 8, then lets meet at 8, but if you say 8 and then don't
show up til 9, what the hell.

------
tzhenghao
This reminds me of Malaysia, the country I grew up in. There’s a thing called
Malaysian timing, where people will be consistently late for at least 30mins
to any meeting (both personal and work events). Sometimes, the “on my way”
reply is basically them still at home laying down on their bed. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

------
brbrbrbrbr
This little book "Diversity Map" has a better view on cultural differences,
time management being one of them.

Nevertheless, I grew up in Brazil but never agreed with lateness. I found not
necessarily a sign of being sloppy but rather disrespectful with the others.
However, I can understand why, specially in Rio where the public and private
service can't deliver service with punctuality, it is impossible to manage
time properly.

------
thanatropism
Rio is known for its culture of ambiguity.

Another classic is "let's get together sometimes" (which means "dude, I
totally don't hate you so let's be on each other's background social circle
but never get together sometimes"). And its friendlier varient "come by my
home sometimes to visit". (Don't go. It means they like you, but just don't
show up unannounced).

Everyone is on about how São Paulo is much more businesslike than Rio (it is,
but the ambiguous social norms of Rio don't bleed over the worlplace that
much), but I think the main difference is how these cultures treat friendship.

In São Paulo friendship is very binary. People are strangers and sort of
hostile by default, but once you make into their friend circle you might as
well be family. Cariocas are friendly in a broad general fashion but have very
very few true friends you can count on, visit unannounced, ask for help
moving, etc.

This accounts for a lot of social customs re: parties and such. Cariocas are
just more fluid.

~~~
drukenemo
Have you ever heard of the coconut vs peach theory?

[https://x-culture.org/peach-vs-coconut-
cultures/](https://x-culture.org/peach-vs-coconut-cultures/)

Seems like cariocas are peach and paulistas (people from São Paulo) are
coconut.

~~~
thanatropism
It's a good metaphor.

It's interesting that they would characterize Americans (at least those of an
"international" style that study abroad or socialize with Brazilians) as
peaches, though. My first impression with an American is typically "this is a
very very honest person that will hold me to a high standard".

This is maybe where the coconuts/peaches idea breaks: you can be someone who
is "open" in the sense of having a Bayesian prior that people are generally
good; but also be very quick to change their minds (unforgiving) and very
literal (which is a kind of reactionary take on the ambiguity of superficial
relationships).

So the spectrum I want to draw is more like ambivalence-judgementalness. (I
want to keep ranting about Joao Gilberto vs. Chet Baker as jazz-pop singers
and how one uses dissonant x/9/11/13 chords as a way to open up interpretation
on the underlying basic harmonic structure while the other uses the same
extended chord-color palette to create smoother but definite harmonic
structures.)

------
blauditore
Huh, at least here where I live (somewhere in western Europe), there's an
unwritten rule to generally not arrive at the announced time for parties. If
it starts at 7, first people will start showing up maybe around 8.

Maybe this has to do with not wanting to arrive at a party that's still empty.

------
otaviokz
As a Brazilian, don't take this as a reliable source of information.

Where I was raised, "Estou chegando" (I'm arriving) means exactly that.
Arriving late is kind of expected in parties/bbqs but not at work, meetings,
appointments etc.

As for Rio culture, no idea since I've never been there.

~~~
kolmogorov
I lived in Rio and regularly heard people saying “Estou chegando “ while
drinking a beer and ordering another one. It was disturbing at first but then
I got used to it.

------
EugeneOZ
At least we know author is vegetarian, it was critically important for us to
know.

------
CodeCube
Just to add onto the cavalcade of other anecdotes ... can confirm that there
is a similar "cuban time", having grown up in Miami. No one is on time, much
to the chagrin of my very-caucasian wife :)

------
sasaf5
It is not only in Brazil. There are some kind of parties that requires lots of
preparation by the host and does not have a strict event that requires
everyone to be there at the same time. Cocktail parties for example, or
barbecues in most of the world. The author of the article is just showing 1)
lack of manners with the host, 2) lack of culture by not understanding what a
barbecue party is, 3) bigotry towards brazilians.

Host a feijoada in Rio and you can be sure all your friends will be there on
time for the meal.

------
mathattack
It’s a cultural reality. Rather than get annoyed (which I used to do) I’ve
just learned to pad times.

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is part of the cause is also that
Brazilians are more “in the moment” with whoever they are currently with. It’s
ok (expected) that you may be late for a future meeting because you never want
to be rude or short with the people that you’re currently with.

This is also why many non-Brazilian politicians are perpetually late.

------
EGreg
I find that being late to things acknowledges the reality that meetings and
commutes can have unexpected delays and run over.

Being honest about it sets people’s expectations better. And you have to
tolerate it from others as well.

It also correlates with higher creativity and success:

[https://www.mydomaine.com/running-late-
creativity](https://www.mydomaine.com/running-late-creativity)

------
fastball
Who shows up to a house party on time?

In London, I know very few parties that would really get started less than an
hour after the publicised start time.

------
wslh
The article focuses in Brazil where indeed this is normal in Latin America.
There are pattern variations but punctuality is not the norm. That said, doing
business people adapt and are more formal. As a Latin American business owner
I expect perfect punctuality but accept excuses if I am notified before the
event.

------
neves
As a Carioca, my pet theory is that we are always late due to the lack of a
decent public transport, specially trains. British trains are famous for being
on time to the minute. Brazil is a really unequal society, public transport is
really for the poor and terrible.

~~~
triangleman
Visiting Sao Paulo I found the trains to be reliable, clean, timely, and used
by all segments of society except I assume the super-rich who have someone
drive them.

One thing that struck me about Brazil compared to the U.S. is the huge number
of people standing around doing nothing. You will never see that in the U.S.:
if someone is loitering here, they are a teenager or homeless. But it was huge
in Brazil. I am assuming this is because of the extreme unemployment and lack
of opportunity.

Unfortunately, seeing so much despondency is likely to affect everyone in the
society. You tend to change your outlook on things. I have heard there is an
"everyone does it" attitude with regard to paying bribes, stealing services
like electricity, etc. This also drags down society.

My wife is Brazilian and she is a very timely person, living in the U.S.
Partly due to acculturation but also because of the "I wasn't born here but
got here as fast as I could" effect.

------
johnmarcus
It's kind of neat that if the party starts at 6pm, you (the guests) could take
that to mean that is the time you should start getting ready. In this way,
you, the hosts, and the other guests will actually all be on the same schedule
really.

------
Myrmornis
Truly absurd generalizations about a vast and complex country. You’d have
thought we’d outgrown this sort of crass writing about other countries when we
exited the nineteenth century.

~~~
TurboHaskal
Not sure why you're getting downvoted but I'm with you.

Screw this subtle racism.

Being someone who was born in a country with far from ideal stereotypes is not
fun, specially those related to work ethic which are potentially harmful
should you want to make a career abroad.

------
yelloweyes
Brazilians love to pretend they "relaxed" but they're the most uptight people.
If you don't follow their cultural rules to a T they get all weird and upset.

------
naveen99
The closer you are to the organizers, the earlier you can show up. But you
should probably be helping with party arrangements. Same with staying late.

------
edpichler
> In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

This is a lie.

------
LeanderK
I always struggle with these generalizations. People take them too literally.
I don't think this is racist or belittling, it's just the impression of the
author. I also think these generalizations are possible, because culture
imposes norms and expectations on the individual. And different cultures
emphasise different things. This is something beautiful and makes the world
worth exploring.

But you to keep in mind that generalizations about the cultural influence on
certain behaviours say nothing about the individual and not even a group of
indivuals. There are probably a lot of punctual, hard working brazilians in
rio de jainero. I think that's the line that racist ideas like to cross.

TLDR: I like the piece, but I struggle with the title.

------
Havoc
So how does that work with say doctors appointments?

~~~
supertramp_
Same as in the US. Your appointment won't be on time and you will have to
wait.

~~~
Havoc
>Same as in the US. Your appointment won't be on time and you will have to
wait.

Not all countries. I got last slot recently...knew he's 15mins behind so went
for a stroll. Showed up 5 late and got flak for being late (he caught up in
last session so was back on track)

------
foobarbazetc
Who turns up to a party on time in the US?

------
pwaai
The only few countries where people adhered to the clock like religion were
UK, Germany, Japan.

The few countries where people did not give a shit were Italy and Brazil, with
Italy being the worst. When they mean noon, they really mean late after noon.

------
matte_black
Anecdotally I find that some of the most successful people I know are
chronically late, but I’m not sure if they are late because they are
successful or successful because they are always late. I’d wager it probably
has to do with whatever your _reason_ for being late is. Being late because
you are trying to maximize productive time is different from being late due to
carelessness or procrastination.

~~~
docker_up
Anecdotally I have found the exact opposite. The most successful people I know
value their time and consequently value other people's time as well, so they
are always on time.

------
cmoscoso
This is racism and it’s not allowed on HN.

~~~
mpol
It is about culture, which is a real thing.

Racism would mean there are races in humankind, which is mostly found to be
untrue.

~~~
leg100
The implication of what you're saying is that there is no such thing as
racism...

