
Finnish PM Marin calls for 4-day-week and 6-hours working day in the country - joeyespo
https://www.neweurope.eu/article/finnish-pm-marin-calls-for-4-day-week-and-6-hours-working-day-in-the-country/
======
TomMckenny
Keynes conjectured reduced workload (or the equivalent: ever rising
compensation) would be the natural consequence of increased productivity. What
went wrong seems to come from at least two things he did not expect.

Firstly, rather than continuing the trend of increasing political power in the
early post war period, the productive classes, including employees, have lost
political power relative to the ownership classes and thus control of resource
allocation decisions.

Secondly, outside tech and a few other vibrant sectors, capital sits idles or
is used unproductively (for example in real-estate speculation) or even to
destroy wealth (for example through expanded rent seeking). This is relevant
because in these cases the increased wealth from increased productivity is
just wasted rather than being used productively or at least spent on quality
of life.

It's nice to see that somewhere, a few people are trying to address that first
issue.

~~~
nbrempel
I think it's also worth pointing out that, while gains in productivity from
increased automation that Keynes predicted would contribute to a 15 hour work
week may have been realized, the CEO-to-worker compensation ratio has risen
quickly. Because of this, the gains would not have been distributed evenly.

"From 1978 to 2013, CEO compensation, inflation-adjusted, increased 937
percent, a rise more than double stock market growth and substantially greater
than the painfully slow 10.2 percent growth in a typical worker’s compensation
over the same period." [0]

"The CEO-to-worker compensation ratio was 20-to-1 in 1965 and 29.9-to-1 in
1978, grew to 122.6-to-1 in 1995, peaked at 383.4-to-1 in 2000, and was
295.9-to-1 in 2013, far higher than it was in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, or
1990s." [0]

[0] [https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay-continues-to-
rise/](https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay-continues-to-rise/)

------
mongol
> In neighbouring Sweden, where the 6-hour-day has already been applied since
> 2015, results showed that employees were happier, wealthier and more
> productive, as they were still fully paid and customers were more satisfied.

I am Swedish and am puzzled by this. What is it refering to?

~~~
Miner49er
It was an experiment:
[https://www.bbc.com/news/business-38843341](https://www.bbc.com/news/business-38843341)

~~~
kmlx
i think we need to mention that the experiment failed and was not implemented.

~~~
Miner49er
I wouldn't call it a failure just because it wasn't implemented more. It had
many benefits over a 40 hour work week.

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tempsy
I care less about workday length than the number of work days. 4 day workweeks
make much more sense. At least in the workplaces I've been in Friday is
already this no man's land of a day where people phone it in or work from home
as is.

~~~
kmlx
yeah, but they're still working right?

~~~
tempsy
depends on the company and individual

i think as is it is at most a half working day for a lot of people and yet
you're expected to treat it like a full day

with a true 4 day workweek then you can focus on working 4 "real" full days

~~~
Mirioron
Who's to say that Thursday won't become the new Friday though?

~~~
npo9
I’d like to see extended four day working tests to see if Thursday becomes the
new Friday.

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dementik
No, she or her coalition has not demanded for a test run.

That "utopia" was introduced in August (four months before Marin became PM) as
a proposal for the future.

~~~
mongol
Thanks for clarifying. I will put that site on my personal "do not trust"
list.

~~~
dementik
And just to add, "utopia" was the wording Marin herself used. Of course she
supports the idea but I assume she does not see it as a realism in very near
future.

Yes, the site made its way to my do-not-trust list as well.

------
esotericn
Whenever this sort of policy comes up I wonder about the effects at the
extreme ends of the spectrum.

If you're in a position to opt-out of this sort of policy and become more
competitive as a result, then this can be great for you because you improve
your position relative to the others.

A bit like how people talk about capping incomes, seeminly not realising that
this cements pre-existing owners of wealth further.

Right now I'm sort of in an OK position, but ten years ago I would have told
you - I don't want a 4-day week, because you're ahead of me, and I want to
catch up with you.

I mean, ultimately there's nothing stopping most people negotiating a 4 day
week. It just seems to be the case that "most" people accept whatever job is
thrown at them, so if you're unskilled, it's difficult to convince an employer
of anything even slightly unusual. Fixing _that_ situation (e.g. giving people
leverage of some sort) is the way to go, IMO.

------
mongol
I think it makes sense to work less for many reasons. But some politicians
propose it like it would cost nothing, or that the costs would be eaten by the
employers. To the voters it is proposed as "work less and get paid the same".
I think that is dishonest.

~~~
Miner49er
It worked for the weekend. With increases in productivity, I don't see any
reason why reducing hours couldn't work again today.

In 1940, when the weekend was implemented in the United States, the real GDP
per capita was 10,027.46. Today, it is 58,024.99.

With a 5.8x increase in productivity, we should be able to work significantly
less then we did in 1940.

[https://www.multpl.com/us-real-gdp-per-capita/table/by-
year](https://www.multpl.com/us-real-gdp-per-capita/table/by-year)

~~~
Mirioron
But people also demand far more from their lives. Nowadays people want to have
a TV, a phone, a computer, lots of software and entrainment on these devices
etc. Our cars are much safer, our food is safer, we have far better and more
healthcare etc.

~~~
shantly
> Nowadays people want to have a TV, a phone, a computer, lots of software and
> entrainment on these devices etc

That's not where the money goes. That stuff's nothing. You can get working TVs
all day long for peanuts on Craigslist. I just last week grabbed a hell of a
used business workstation PC on Ebay and threw in an SSD for funsies, under
$200 total including the brand-new SSD. Thing screams for all normal tasks.
Will probably last years. Basically nothing in the scheme of things. Can
someone on a low income reasonably buy one on a whim? No. But having a TV,
phone, and computer is _not_ why people are poor.

Housing, medical care, child care. School (see also: housing costs). Those are
expensive. Our modern conveniences are nothing in comparison.

------
hinkley
I would love to see different industries use different business hours.

I'd like a dentist to be able to go to the bank, a banker to visit the
dentist, without automatically having to take time off of work to do so.

~~~
kasperni
I have real difficulty seeing how such a system would work in practice?

~~~
hinkley
Helps but doesn't fix problems. The 8 am or 5 pm slot at the dentist would
still fill up awfully quickly. But working hourly I always had trouble getting
any self-care or errands done, as did all of my coworkers.

I dunno if this is an example or a counterexample, but there was a
lumber/hardware store near my old house that would close at 4, which sounds
nuts unless you know that it's a favorite among professionals. Most times if
you don't know until 4 that you need a material it's too late to do anything
about it anyway. Doesn't help me though, trying to do a temporary repair on
anything. Have to schlep across town to the Home Depot after rush hour to get
anything done.

------
tristor
Most productive time of my life I worked 3x13s each week covering the weekends
for a 24/7 team, and had 4 days a week to myself. I was able to do so much in
my life, improve my skills and really be more productive at work and a better
person just from having the free time to explore. I don't know that working
more/less hours each day has ever really mattered to me, but working less days
per week can be life changing in a very positive way. It'd be great if we
could all do 4x10 or 3x13s.

~~~
xwowsersx
Agree with you (and others who've made similar points). Hours/day is way less
important than days/week. With free days you can do significantly more with
yourself, whereas if you work 6 instead of 8 hours, work still takes up most
of your day and you can't plan much around it.

------
sethammons
I can only hope this catches on in the US!

> In neighbouring Sweden, where the 6-hour-day has already been applied since
> 2015, results showed that employees were happier, wealthier and more
> productive, as they were still fully paid and customers were more satisfied.

Whoa! I did not know that this was already a thing. Well, here's hoping more
orgs in the US take notice.

~~~
kmlx
the experiment failed and was not continued.

and unfortunately they fail because of costs and a globalised world.

for example china's 996 model would eat europe whole if this ever got
implemented over there.

~~~
stingrae
I doubt 996 is as effective as a normal 955 model and if it is it is probably
short lived.

~~~
kmlx
my problem is this: what if 996 is the most effective system but can only be
applied in certain systems, such as some china factories?

------
icedchai
While we're at it, let's close most offices for the entire month of December.
Nobody's really working anyway.

------
shantly
This or (especially) 3x8 is what I've thought is about the "right" amount of
work to count as full-time when you're selling your labor, for some time now.
It's past the tipping point where your employer stops dominating your entire
week, but still enough to remain good at whatever you do at work, with enough
multi-hour time blocks to still get plenty accomplished.

------
buboard
regulated work hours are not the solution. the change of paradigm should be -
people being paid for outcomes, not for hours sitting in a chair. To do that,
govts would have to create (or allow creation of) the infrastructure for
freelancing to become the most viable lifestyle choice.

~~~
npo9
We have some real problems with health insurance for the self employed. Other
than that freelancing is currently a very good option in the us.

------
xwowsersx
I think these sorts of pushes can only gain traction in a country with a very
extensive welfare system. Hard to imagine this working in the US, for example.
People would simply figure out a way to work more in order to get ahead and
compete with others. Seems to me that a more socialist form of government is a
required backdrop for this to mean anything.

~~~
wolco
Is the current 40hw/8h socialist? Do you prefer employment law to not set age
limits so 10 year olds can mine again?

Socialism is something else not to be confused with labor standards or water
safety or building code rules or parking fines or mail delivery.

~~~
xwowsersx
You're letting your true colors show here by getting all bothered by the term
socialism. It's a form of government, nothing more nothing less. I didn't say
anything about how I felt about socialism, nor did I say anything to suggest
there not be age limits for labor. What an absurd straw man.

I stand by my original point that if the goal of such proposals is to reduce
total time spent working in absolute terms that the success of such proposals
depends greatly on the form of government that exists in the country it's
being proposed.

~~~
wolco
Socialism isn't a form of government. Democracy is a form of government.

Socialism is a set of principles a party might adopt to run on.

~~~
xwowsersx
You're right, that is more precise. Thanks.

