
Show HN:  A high performance airplane for the price of a luxury car - carleverett
The Light Sport Aircraft category was created by the FAA in 2004 with the hopes that it would lead to the first affordable airplanes.  By lowering restrictions for LSA’s, it was predicted that planes would be able to sell for around $60,000.<p>9 years later, none of the big players in the industry have been able to accomplish this.  Cessna made its Skycatcher, which was supposed to sell for under $100,000.  It launched in 2007 at $110,000, and has since increased its price up to $150,000.  Several, better attempts at an affordable LSA have been made since then, but decent planes have struggled to find price points under $80,000.  A few are sold in the $60-80k range, but these are “bare-bones” airplanes, and the market has shown little demand for planes not equipped with radios, lights, navigation, iPod jacks, etc… even if they are affordable.<p>I co-founded a company that has made an airplane with all these amenities and more for $55k.  The design has been around for a few years now and comes from a kit-plane manufacturer in the Czech Republic.  It is tiny:  250 pounds empty weight, which is small enough to be classified as an ultralight (although its performance takes it way out of ultralight eligibility).  It is very strong, capable of carrying 60 pounds of fuel, a 230 pound pilot, and 30 pounds of baggage.  Because it’s so small, the performance specs are competitive with the Cessna Skycatcher on just a 50 hp engine.  It is very fuel efficient, getting 60 mpg and flying 575 miles on one tank.  Radio, GPS navigation, collision avoidance, synthetic flight, lights, and an emergency locator transmitter all come standard on the plane.<p>I know this isn’t tech news, but I love this website and rarely get to contribute since I’m not a programmer.  Here is our website:  http://www.skycraftairplanes.com.  Please give me your input.
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janus
This is truly amazing. This airplane weighs less than one of the most famous
and popular gliders, the PW-5 Smyk.

I hope one day to be able to buy one of these to go back and forth from work.

Any plans for a dual seater version? That would be awesome and would totally
destroy the high end coupé cars market

~~~
carleverett
A dual seater is in the plans, but the addition power and strength needed will
up the price a decent amount. As a complete ballpark figure, a two-seater will
be roughly $20k more than the single seater.

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penglish1
Wow - that really is quite impressive. And I think it is "plenty technical"
for Hacker News. After all - hacking isn't just about computers per se. This
is some pretty solid hardware hacking.

Your "story" is so amazing - half the price of Cessna's attempt at the same
thing?!

However, Cessna's variant does have a second seat and a fair bit more load
capacity.

Q1) Could one sacrifice some pounds of baggage for a bigger pilot? I'm
currently (sadly) ~240lbs.

Q2) Is there a single factor which dominates the huge difference in price? It
appears the Cessnas were produced in the US, until they moved production to
China - making (apparently) a ~$71k difference in labor cost! But they still
are selling for $150k instead of the original target $110k. So is it labor?
Materials? Design? Engine? I'm very (hacker) curious!

Q3) You mention the market being uninterested in "bare-bones" planes without
radios, lights, navigation, iPod jacks etc. But while the "top tier" of those
items are certain to be expensive, the "non-aviation grade" version of most of
the sensors, GPS, radios etc have plummeted in cost in the years since the LSA
category was created. An in-car GPS unit used to be $500+ minimum - now it is
< $100 - with a bigger, brighter, higher resolution display, more CPU and map
storage memory and fancy 3D navigation stuff to boot! Altimeter sensors are
now basically "freebies" integrated into all sorts of consumer electronics. I
find it disappointing (though unsurprising) that the aviation market hasn't
pushed harder such that these systems are not such a major cost driver. Do you
have any insight into why this is? Or have they really dropped in price, and a
system which would have formerly added say, $50,000 to an aircraft now adds
"merely $10,000?"

~~~
carleverett
1) Unfortunately not. In airplanes, just as important as how much weight is in
the aircraft is where that weight is. 230 lbs is the maximum pilot weight
regardless of how much weight is in other parts of the plane.

2) By far, the single biggest factor in the price difference between us and a
Cessna is the engine. Twice the horsepower is needed to fly the Skycatcher,
but that translates to an engine cost of 3-4 times our engine. Historically
speaking, engines have always been the price hog that keeps airplanes so
expensive.

3) You are right on! This is a big reason why we are able to offer such good
instrumentation while keeping our price down - the technology is so much
better and cheaper than it was 10 years ago. These days entire airplanes are
being run off of iPads with a couple hundred bucks of apps downloaded to them.
I will say, the entire concept of "aviation grade" seems to be abused a lot in
the aviation industry. I think airplane component manufacturers have gotten
away with charging outrageous premiums for their products because of their
perceived complexity. LSA has helped out a lot in lifting this veil.

I think the aviation industry kind of sees us as a great case study in the
direction of the market. If we succeed, the competition for more affordable
airplanes will finally start heating up, and we'll start getting a slew of
really impressive low cost airplanes. I genuinely can't wait. Flying is the
coolest thing humans do besides explore space, and 100+ years since the
invention of the airplane, you'd think a lot more people would be flying by
now.

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codex_irl
Wow - I wonder if it would be possible to practically use this to commute to /
from work every day.

I live a 5 minute drive from a tiny airport and it would be about a 30 minute
flight to Palo Alto...if this was possible it would allow us to live further
away....maybe even somewhere where home ownership is possible!

~~~
carleverett
Exactly! Read my comment below on this.

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japhyr
I have a question, which admittedly is based on my experience with paper
airplanes. I have noticed that tiny paper airplanes look cool, but are
difficult to fly. When I was a kid, I remember making a paper airplane out of
a giant piece of butcher paper. I launched it out of my second floor window,
expecting it to soar all the way to the street. It rather pathetically
pinwheeled to the ground. It seems that, with paper airplanes at least, the
most stable designs are in some middle size range.

Is this tiny plane less stable than more traditional "small planes" like
Cessnas? I love the concept of this plane, but is it actually a good first
plane for new pilots?

~~~
carleverett
Fortunately, there is little relationship between the flight characteristics
of paper airplanes vs. actual airplanes. Stability is achieved in design
aspects of the plane. For instance, dihedral wings (upward angled) are a big
factor in stability since they cause the airplane to want to level out when it
rolls. This is positive stability, vs. negative stability, which is when the
plane wants to roll more once it begins rolling.

Lighter planes are more easily pushed by the wind, which only really ups your
difficulty level during crosswind landings. Pilots will usually have a maximum
crosswind they'll allow themselves to land in before resorting to another
runway - that speed would be lower on a lighter aircraft.

That is no reason to say that the SD-1 is not suited for beginners however. It
has positive stability control and plenty of modern safety features, so it
makes a great first plane.

~~~
japhyr
Thank you for such a clear answer. I really hope this takes off, and I wish
you well!

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vosper
Well done on getting this far with your product!

Does the plane allow for a ballistic parachute to be fitted? Such a light
aircraft seems like the ideal candidate for this kind of device, and it would
help ameliorate fears about safety in such a (relatively) budget machine.

Also, your site seems to be a little slow at the moment. If this makes it to
the front page or HN (or <http://reddit.com/r/shutupandtakemymoney>) it would
be a shame for people to find it unresponsive or down - might be worth
investing in a faster server, CDN etc...

~~~
carleverett
Thank you!

The ballistic parachute is one of the 2 optional add-ons for our plane - the
other being a Mode S Transponder for flight into Class B and C airspace. The
ballistic parachute comes with a choice however, since getting one means you
won't be able to have an aft baggage compartment. If you get the parachute
though, there will be space underneath the seat for a small amount of baggage.

Thanks for the heads up on the slow site, I'll take care of that

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ewams
Awesome. How many pre-orders do you have?

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meerita
I, myself, started the course of flying long time ago. I left it because the
money, it was expensive for a 16 years old guy :(. My favourite planes those
days were Piper PA-11 and the motor glider Grob G 109.

I had the chance on many other planes and gliders, like the Nimbus 3DM but I'm
impressed with the prices for this plane. It can be really nice starter for
those who enjoy flying.

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pasbesoin
I'll continue to drive a jalopy and spend my money on something like this.

This makes regular travel to and from the place I want to be (as opposed to
need to be, for an income) a real possibility.

P.S. Another person who would be interested in a two-seater. At the same time,
it's only fair I note that my own purchase would not be imminent. (Been a
rough few years.)

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avn2109
From the perspective of a mechanical engineer, this is amazing. You're
squeezing unbelievable performance from such a small engine.

Also, a slightly-larger two-seater would be wonderful for transporting
girlfriends/wives. Is that anywhere on the horizon?

~~~
japhyr
/boyfriends/husbands

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boothead
If a guy building a submarine in his garage is HN worthy then so is this in my
book :-)

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boca
I don't know anything about planes but as others pointed out, this looks
promising. Have you tried reaching out to some media outlets to pick up your
story? It is interesting for sure especially considering the price
perspective.

~~~
carleverett
Definitely, aviation media has been pretty kind to us so far, I think the
aviation community is pretty excited about us:

[http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/lsasport/skycraft-
sd-1-min...](http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/lsasport/skycraft-
sd-1-minisport-lsa-flies-12-hour)

[http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2013/05/skycraft-
begins-p...](http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2013/05/skycraft-begins-
production-on-sd-1-minisport/)

[http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-
News/2013/May/29/Skyc...](http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-
News/2013/May/29/Skycraft-light-sport-enters-market.aspx)

~~~
boca
That's great! Wouldn't it help to highlight these on your website with a 'In
the News' or 'As Featured on' section.

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staunch
Really neat. I don't know a damn thing about airplanes, but good luck. I think
it's quite possible that our dream of "flying cars" will end up being
(partially) fulfilled by small computer-controlled airplanes.

~~~
carleverett
That is my hope. I see a big practical use for airplanes like ours in the
future for long work commutes. People already drive 2 hours through traffic in
some cases to make it to work, just to keep their family in a nice
neighborhood. Commuter airplanes would allow people to live basically wherever
they wanted and still get to work in a reasonable time. This would require a
significant change in infrastructure, but the popularity of an affordable
airplane would have to come before that anyways (think Model T to Eisenhower
Interstate System).

For me, there is no doubt in my mind that a shift towards more affordable
flying is going to happen. If a small startup like us is able to put out a
plane as nice as ours for its price, clearly the forces keeping planes
expensive are not insurmountable.

~~~
EvanKelly
Just a question on logistics. If we assume that you aren't waiting on other
air traffic, what would you estimate as the time someone parks their car at
the airport to the time you're up in the air with the plane?

I'm pretty ignorant to what kind of safety checks and security proceedings a
private pilot has to go through. Same thing goes for landing? Is there a lot
of setup and teardown that has to be done outside of air time?

~~~
harvardkid
Judging by the size of the aircraft I would think you could be up in the air
in about 15 minutes after parking your car. Pre-flight check should only take
2-3 minutes on a aircraft of this size. Take a minute for engine run up. The
largest amount of time is probably used up taxing to the end of the runway and
walking to and from your vehicle.

~~~
carleverett
Yep this is correct. The other variable is that if you're taking advantage of
the removable wings, it'll be about 10 minutes to throw those on and take
those off before and after flight.

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japhyr
If a pilot weighs 180 pounds, can you carry another 50 pounds of baggage? Or
does weight distribution limit baggage to 30 pounds for everyone?

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bjoerns
this is awesome, I really like it. I hold a JAR-PPL(A) and the cost of hiring
a simple Cessna 152 is just ridiculous (same goes for buying) - bearing in
mind that it's technology from about 30-40 years ago... I am amazed by the
operational costs of the SD-1. Just out of interest, what fuel does the engine
run on? Avgas, Mogas (never really looked into UL)?

~~~
carleverett
It runs on mogas, but avgas can be used if an additive is mixed in. This way
if you find yourself needing to land at an airport that only pumps avgas,
you're set as long as you have that additive with you in your baggage
compartment.

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varunkho
This is awesome! What would be the average cost per-mile to fly this?
Considering cost of maintanence, fuel etc.

~~~
carleverett
If you're taking advantage of the removable wings and not renting hanger
space, operational costs are $12 an hour (fuel, oil, and engine maintenance
included). At the 118 mph cruise speed, that's $0.10 a mile.

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HelpfulBot
link: <http://www.skycraftairplanes.com>

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jacknews
Isn't this the same as the kit plane already available from Spacek
(sdplanes.com)

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gadders
245lb? Finally a plane I can deadlift.

Seriously, though, these look really cool.

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djbelieny
I like the little plane. Looks really nice :)

