
Patio11 Wrote A Book On Conversion Optimization For Software Companies - edw519
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/12/21/i-wrote-a-book-on-conversion-optimization-for-software-companies/
======
xiaoma
I really have to say that books (fiction or non-fiction) are one of the best
values that exist.

For the same money that you would spend seeing a movie that will be over in
two hours, you can purchase a novel that will provide more hours of enjoyment,
more depth, and the option to return at any time.

For a fraction of the money you could spend on a scammy info product that
constantly upsells you and pushes you to promote the author (via fb likes,
tweets, etc), you can have the result of months or years of effort from one of
the greatest minds in history.

I'm sure Patrick doesn't need any help selling his products here, but I'll say
it anyway-- books are an incredible value, especially from someone like him
who has shared so much before and from whom you have an idea what you'll be
getting! Buy it.

I'm totally broke and could still easily justify this kind of purchase -- skip
one trip to Chipotle and it's paid for!

~~~
snogglethorpe
At the prices I normally pay, a book is about 1/4 the cost of a movie...
(~$4-5 for a book, ~$18 for a movie)

I read slowly, so the value ratio is something incredible... :]

------
edw519
Thank you, Patrick!

I don't know how many times I've read one of your Hacker News comments or blog
posts and thought, "Wow, this guy really cuts to the chase." Then I bookmark
it but never return.

I'm hoping that this is kinda like a "Best of Patio11", giving busy people
like me a chance to have it all in one place on my hard disk. If so, $9.99 is
a bargain.

Downloaded, up to Page 14 of 136. I guess dinner will be late tonight.

~~~
wildmXranat
And thanks for posting it here man. Also, just so you know, I spent some major
time reading your 'best-of' <http://edweissman.com/53640595>. There are plenty
of gems over there .

------
patio11
So I feel sort of morally obligated to comment here and yet don't want to sell
my book, so instead, can I sell Hyperink? They were fantastic to work with,
and successfully convinced me on why I should try publishing through them
rather than trying to e.g. go through a traditional publisher or even one of
the smarter tech-specific presses.

I've been asked to write a book for a few years by potential readers, and a
few times by potential publishers, but I was very disinterested in doing so.
For most people capable of writing tech books, writing books is a very poor
use of time under any economic calculus. The typical model is that you and the
publisher agree to do the book, then you're paid an advance (sometimes in
installments contingent on milestones). You earn a royalty on each sale of the
book, with the royalties first going to pay back ("earn out") the advance, and
then being paid to you quarterly.

This sounds reasonable, until you hear the numbers (typical advance for a tech
book from a first time author: $5k, typical royalty percentage: 8% on a
physical copy, 15% on an ebook). They're not universally that bad -- an author
or two from Apress and Pragmatic Programmer wrote me to say they were
genuinely happy with their experiences -- but that's sort of the general
flavor of things.

If you do the math, it is highly unlikely your book will recoup the advance,
and that is indeed what happens to most tech books. So you've traded months of
full-time labor writing and rewriting, plus additional months of part-time
work hawking the book to anyone who will listen, in return for $5k. That is
not a rational use of time for anybody who can e.g. do contract programming,
which (one would assume) virtually all tech book writers could do.

When I said as much to publishers who asked me to write things, they said
"Ahh, but the book will allow you to establish your bona fides", and I do not
believe that making stupid decisions for my business successfully demonstrates
to clients that I will make smart decisions for theirs. To my view of things,
I'd rather have lots of folks be able to read my writing than have it blessed
by a gatekeeper but widely unavailable.

But blog posts do leave a lot to be desired for teaching people. For one, my
blog is very disorganized, since I have six years of back-issues which appear
in order of "what I was working on that week", and they're of varying quality
and relevance, particularly early in my career. Something with a bit of
structure and curation seemed like it would add value. Plus, I am spelling-
and design-challenged, so having an editor and someone with a sense of style
would be a plus.

That's basically what Hyperink pitched: curating the best of the blog into a
book, complete with editing and design help, with some extra essays added.
It's far less work than scratch-writing a book, the terms are more equitable
(no advance, equitable royalty split), and it provides incremental value to
readers over the blog.

I don't expect to make a huge amount of money on it, relative to the business
in general, but the idea sounded attractive enough to try it as an experiment.

~~~
teej
I think you're not giving authorship enough credit. Being an author under a
well-known publisher gives credibility, shows competence, and may confer the
"expert" title.

Considering the other ways to this path take years (working ones way up the
corporate ladder), money (a university degree) or risk (launching a startup),
losing a few months and earning 5k may be worth it. I'd imagine this publisher
validation is built in to the price you are paid.

I have a few personal friends who have written tech books and it is a large
part of what helped them leapfrog their peers in job position and
compensation.

~~~
tptacek
This is indeed the pitch that publishers use to get subject matter experts to
write books. But as Patrick keeps saying, if you're in a position to
successfully pitch yourself as a subject matter expert for a book, you can
make the same pitch for something more lucrative.

For the amount of effort that goes into writing a book, the deal major
publishers get from authors borders on predatory. I have a lot of friends who
have written books, and I'm not sure any of them really benefited from it.

~~~
larrys
"But as Patrick keeps saying, if you're in a position to successfully pitch
yourself as a subject matter expert for a book, you can make the same pitch
for something more lucrative."

Having your ticket punched opens doors plain and simple. In general being
published by a major house will open doors just like a Harvard degree will.
Doesn't mean there aren't ways around that. Doesn't mean for anyone. But I
don't agree that you can make the same pitch for something more lucrative.

Also with that statement you have to make a distinction between the
traditional world and the online world. Being a top ranked commenter online
means something online but it probably won't get you on 60 Minutes or (as
easily) quoted in the WSJ or NY Times etc. I mean if I was in PR I could
certainly pitch it that way and perhaps I would succeed. But my job would be
much easier if you had been blessed by a major publisher.

"For the amount of effort that goes into writing a book, the deal major
publishers"

I've been meaning to ask you this for quite some time. By your karma ranking
you obviously put much time into HN. There is no doubt that this has paid off
for you. Did you ever wonder or tally up that time and have any idea of how
that effort would have paid off if you had followed another route?

~~~
tptacek
My karma is pretty simple to understand: I don't irc, game, or blog (and used
to blog a lot), and I tend to own the tops of security threads. Now that I
have name recognition, you can safely assume anything I write here "unfairly"
receives 2x-3x as many upvotes as it should. Except on security threads, where
HN tends to be full of crazy people.

But to the point at hand: I can easily make a case for my HN comments being
more lucrative than any book I could have written. Easily. There is no way a
book would have been as valuable as recruiting vector, for instance; I've
hired more people from HN than any other source.

~~~
larrys
The only time I spend online (other than a small bit on HN) is on a VC's blog
where I have become the go to person (by the VC that is) for anything related
to what I am expert in. He's asked me to write a guest post (which I've
declined to do) I started (with no expectation) about 2 years ago. Over the
last year he's sent me consulting referrals (which I never asked for it was
more "can you help this startup with..."). The pay doesn't make sense I can
make more by concentrating on what I actually do rather than giving advice and
being paid by project or hourly. Writing the guest blog post I could easily
transition into doing more consulting and approach other VC's but I don't want
to do that and get sucked into being a consultant.

I can easily see how in the case of someone being as active as you are, and at
the top of the heap, how this pays off for you (and before I posted my comment
I almost said that). But I suspect there are many others that spend a fair
amount of time that, while enjoyable and with benefit, might not fall into
that category.

I'm wondering if you've ever thought about leaving HN and forming your own, um
"family" if you get my drift. I'd put some seed funding into that family. You
already have the gold medal, why not try to do something new? My guess is that
others would follow.

~~~
tptacek
I'm here until Paul Graham offers me a YC slot just to get me to shut up.

~~~
larrys
A few things come to mind, strictly for discussion/entertainment and w/o
knowing the level of seriousness in your comment. Although there is a hint of
truth obviously I'd love to be part of YC as well.

The first is "why buy the cow if the milk is for free"? The second is how I'm
reminded of women that never get their long time boyfriend to marry them
because there is no line in the sand, no deadline, no imperative to make a
decision or do anything.

To wit: "I'm here until Paul Graham offers me...". People need a reason to
make a decision and to do something. (Not that you can say "if/then" or
anything.)

For all I know of course you have had discussions with Paul or someone else
about a YC slot or are totally joking. (I can only speculate and offer
thoughts in case anyone is still awake in the thread my thoughts).

I do plenty negotiating and I've never closed a deal w/o having a time limit
(in which of course the bluff sometimes goes bust obviously but that's the
risk of the game). I never ever leave something open ended unless I don't want
someone to make a decision because I am trying to buy some time while waiting
for someone else.

My point of course is not that you could ever say "make me YC or..". Just that
there is no clear reason for PG to do anything and make a decision.

~~~
tptacek
I'm kidding. The short answer to why I don't set up my own site is, I'm here
almost entirely because I wanted to avoid having a site tied around my own
identity / personal brand. I had a reasonably popular blog before HN, and fled
to HN from it.

------
sjs382
Do you get a bigger cut if I buy via Amazon Kindle or buy a .mobi (which
Kindle supports) via Hyperink?

~~~
patio11
Good question. Not sure. It must be the case that Hyperink gets a higher cut
if Amazon is not in the equation, so to the extent that you want to do someone
a solid I'd suggest buying from them directly (they're a startup, too), but
whatever works for you.

------
mzarate06
_I'd suggest actually having a working product, this book doesn’t cover
product development..._

Excellent! Having researched what it'd be like to build a product before
having done so, I found so much emphasis on the development side ... building,
launching, iterating, etc. I didn't find a whole lot that covered marketing,
sales, and conversion. W/my product launched and getting good reviews from
those that use it, I have every intention of using 2013 to focus on it's
growth and conversion.

So this turns out to be such a timely offering. Thank you for offering this up
at a great price, and for recommending Hyperink (I have a deep interest in
writing an ebook in 2013, I'll check them out).

------
smoyer
I don't really need this book for my current job, but will probably buy it
simply as a way to pay Patrick for all the valuable and free content he's
provided over the past 5+ years.

~~~
azazo
I'm pretty confident that I'll get significant value out of this book for my
current job, but I also agree with this sentiment. For all of the value that I
have received from Patrick's posts, comments, podcasts, etc. over the years
this is the least I can do. Buying it now.

------
dwnoble
Congrats on the book, Patrick! I think that is a feat that a lot of hacker
news readers hope to accomplish one day. I know I fall in that category.

Anyway, I really appreciate the earnest care you took in talking about the
book in this linked-to post. You didn't publish "20 blog posts" in the book.
You published "20 essays that appeared in your blog." Now I haven't read all
of your blog. And for a few parts of a second, reading the word "essays"
(instead of "blog posts") made me think you had some kind of book-marketer
coach this enunciation. But, I have read enough of your blog where I think I
know what you mean. I have definitely made posts in my own blog because I have
felt it's been too long and I have needed to make a post. But, on the other
hand, I have also had a teensy-handful of posts because I had something
itching at the back of my head that needed to come out. Maybe I would call
these essays. I would definitely try to distinguish them in my mind from just
another "blog post."

------
mblake
Bought yesterday and almost finished reading.

Although I could've read almost all of it through the blog (except for the few
new articles), I find it much more comfortable to have everything compiled
into a single file; pure content without other distractions.

I just started dabbling into software marketing and would much rather take
advice from Patrick than general-level marketing advice.

The book (I used the pdf version) is pretty well typeset, so reading it is not
headache-inducing (for the ppl worrying they might not enjoy it and would
rather wait for a printed version).

------
gingerlime
Just bought the book.

This is more of a comment about Hyperink: It looks like a really nice
platform, and seems like they do good marketing too. The only confusing part
with the purchase process initially was that they only show iPad and PDF
highlighted as available formats. Nook and Kindle look greyed-out (??). I was
just hoping to get an ePub, so wasn't sure if I'll get one. Eventually it gave
me a much clearer list of options to download from: pdf, epub and mobi.

Why not simply showing those options with the same terminology in the first
place??

------
typicalrunt
@patio11: Stupid question time, and this may be from hyperink more than you.
You state:

 _You can buy it here (Kindle, iPad, Nook, PDF) or on Amazon (Kindle)._

Does that mean I would get an ePub version? Device-specific is great for non-
technical people, but I have a Kobo (ePub/PDF) and it's not in the list, so
I'm not sure what formats I'm being given (Hyperink's FAQ doesn't answer this
either).

~~~
nekopa
The nook format is usually ePub.

~~~
typicalrunt
Funny enough, I searched the Wikipedia entry on the Nook and there's no
mention of "format" so I figured it was proprietary.

Thanks.

------
pc86
I have no professional need for a book like this, but I enjoy Patrick's
writings and have learned many things I can apply to my "real" work (internal
BigCo applications). I may not buy this any time soon, but for anyone on the
fence for whom this book is directly related to your work, buy it immediately
and don't put it down until you're done.

------
kybernetyk
Patrick, don't get it the wrong way: I love your blog and podcast and bought
your book. But ...

if you're so good with marketing software why don't you market your software
but go the consulting route instead? Isn't there more potential profit in
selling your products than offering your services as a consultant?

That's something I've been asking myself for some time.

~~~
jgeralnik
He does market his software, and practices everything he preaches on his own
software too. But let's look at some numbers.

Let's say that Patrick's techniques can increase profits by 10% compared to an
"unoptimized" website. If the bingo card business is worth $X0,000, by selling
his own products on optimized webpages Patrick makes an extra $X,000.

If instead Patrick consults for a company that does $X0,000,000 his techniques
are now worth $X,000,000. If he gets a percentage of those new profits, he is
doing much better than if he had sold more of his own product.

Since creating a business which does $X0,000,000 in sales is hard, Patrick can
make better use of his time by finding those existing companies and offering
his services that by selling more of his (comparatively low value) product
himself.

------
obilgic
So %80 percent of the content comes directly from his blog posts. Seems like
he really likes conversion :)

~~~
jsaxton86
I would assume patio11 doesn't intend to directly make a lot of money off of
this book. Instead, he wants to be able to tell potential clients he has
written a book on conversion optimization, which allows him to charge a higher
rate.

~~~
patio11
Honestly? Primarily non-economic reasons. (People asked me for it, the
Hyperink guys seemed great, "published author" beats "owns a software company"
in the McKenzie Family List of Approved Jobs, etc.)

It is possible that there are some markets and consultancies for which
publishing a book would be a great credibility enhancer, but I sort of doubt
I'm in one of them. I do something which is very quantifiable, with very few
people available who do it, and which empirically produces absolutely stupid
ROI some of the time. Books are not required to raise rates. (And, if I ran
into a company that was unpersuaded by "I made $FIRM $X million in two weeks
by running a series of A/B tests" but really responded to "... and I wrote a
book!", I'd run screaming from that engagement, because that client sounds
like they're going to be a lot more stress than my savvier clients.)

~~~
charleshaanel
"The Black Arts of SaaS Pricing" - copywriting hat tip ;)

------
ruswick
Although I'm generally hesitant to purchase books, this appears to be a fairly
interesting product. I'd likely buy it immediately were I in an economic
position to do so. Unfortunately, I'm simply unable to justify such an
expenditure...

~~~
mctx
Can I buy it for you?

------
pknerd
@Patio11 A dumb but important question. Is this book about latest buzz,
"Growth Hacking" or Market Research(Finding a Niche/Market) for your next
product by using available tools?

Please clarify.

------
hayksaakian
Would someone mind finding and turning the posts in the table of contents he
posted into links? I'll do it tomorrow if no one does it before then.

------
ig1
Don't seem to be able to buy it on Amazon:

<http://oi48.tinypic.com/2cofv3o.jpg>

~~~
WA
See the green box on the right? You're in the wrong Amazon shop. Go to
amazon.co.uk and search for his book there. This works at least on amazon.de
(same green info box in the US-store).

~~~
ig1
Odd, I thought that might be the case and I clicked on the green box and it
just took me to Amazon's UK homepage so I just assumed it was just a generic
"would you like to shop at Amazon UK" link rather than something related to
the availability of the item in question.

But if I search Amazon UK for the title it comes up correctly and I can buy
it.

Pretty poor UX really.

~~~
WA
Yeah, UX is really poor. I don't know why they can't put a direct link to the
product there - or at least trigger a search for the product.

------
jbail
The book looks great. Just bought it on Kindle and started reading. It
immediately gets down to business. I like that.

------
danielpal
I met patio11 at TwilioCon, and just chatting less that 20 minutes with him I
learned a ton.

Needless to say, I just bought the book.

------
danhodgins
Can't wait to apply these insights Patrick. Keep up the teaching/sharing -
your material is fantastic.

------
thoughtcriminal
Honest price, not $100 and bundled with some garbage videos I don't even want,
like I've seen around here.

Thanks Patrick, for not pricing it to squeeze every single penny you can from
me. It's an easy sale.

~~~
patio11
You're entitled to not buy anything you feel like, but I'm strongly of the
opinion that all arms-length prices are honest prices.

The economics of producing things for businesses are very different than the
economics of producing them for individuals, particularly because businesses
are relatively price insensitive and not very numerous. I can price this at
$10 because it receives implicit subsidy from everything else I do.

If making businesses money through training was my livelihood and not a fun
hobby, I would certainly explore packaging options and price points that made
sense even if I only sold a few hundred copies. (And, n.b., if you were a SaaS
company trying to buy advice on lifecycle emails from me that would run $500
to $X0,000. There aren't enough customers in that niche to make $7 a sale
sane. Also, seen from the customer's perspective, the information will
routinely be used to make five to six figures)

I respect that this can make commerce difficult for goods which are dual-use
between for-profit businesses and hobbyists, at least for folks whose purchase
would be more aspirational in nature. As somebody who started out as a
hobbyist with a $60 budget, I have great appreciation for expensive business
tools not being in the budget, but wouldn't cast aspersions on them simply
because they're not in the budget. Many worthwhile things like e.g. employees
are similarly not in the budget, and the answer is probably "Do without and
bootstrap until you can afford them" rather than worrying overmuch about the
pricing structure of businesses other than one's own.

~~~
xiaoma
> _I'm strongly of the opinion that all arms-length prices are honest prices._

As I understand it, "arms-length" prices just mean "the price at which two
unrelated and non-desperate parties would agree to a transaction". And,
obviously factors such as the presence of manipulation, coercion,
informational asymmetry and variance between the product and the promises of
its marketing have an effect on how "honest" a price is.

Selling a car for $50k that we both know is crap is different from selling one
that I know but haven't told you is crap is different from selling one through
very persuasive and reassuring marketing and removing all liability through
legalease incomprehensible to the customer. Selling a luxury car as a risky
investment plan to a non-savvy retiree would be still worse, and selling a car
with safety flaws would be downright reprehensible, even if both parties
agreed on the price.

People of different cultures and political leanings draw the line in different
places, but it's certainly not a simple black and white rule that anything you
can get someone to agree to buy is ethical at any price. There's spectrum that
goes from saintly and honest to illegal and evil.

My definition of an honest price: an honest attempt to provide at least as
much value as you extract. (which the B2B business examples you listed above
would be doing)

~~~
gregpilling
I would regard "arms-length" as a situation where both buyer and seller are
aware of other options in the market and there is no dirty dealing going on.
To use your vehicle analogy, I recently purchased a new truck. I purchased the
one with the fancy seats and all the bells and whistles, while being perfectly
aware that I could have saved 20% on the cost of the truck had I purchased a
more plain but functionally identical vehicle.

I wanted the fancy one, so I bought it.

