
The psychology of stress and burnout - pmcpinto
http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20161116-stress-is-good-for-you-until-it-isnt?ocid=global_capital_rss
======
emilburzo
It's all in your head, for better or worse.

Extreme sports or intense physical exertion have been key, for me, in dealing
with daily stress.

And no, I'm not some superstar adrenaline pumped athlete, just an amateur that
loves skydiving/paragliding/fast motorcycles/hiking/etc over the weekend.

I didn't realize how much these activities help me, until I had to take a
break from them for whatever reason (e.g.: winter where it's cold enough that
you can't do most sports, but with not enough snow to go skiing or something).

I could almost measure the effects: the longer the break, the lower the
threshold for daily stress -- from feeling slightly irritated to almost angry
over the simplest triggers, if enough time had passed.

Then I'd do one skydive and it would make all the difference in the world,
whatever daily stressful thing would happen "in the real world" it just felt
like it didn't register as dangerous/stressful in the brain.

My feeling is that you can raise your tolerance threshold for what counts as
stress, you just have to find out what works for you.

I'm guessing it also has something to do with these activities being very
focused, so you're kinda disconnected from what's happening in the world and
just truly "in the moment".

Maybe that pause from stress is what does it?

Has anyone else had similar experiences?

~~~
alexgotoi
What if you are afraid of extreme sports? What alternatives would you
recommend?

~~~
wonder_er
If you live near an indoor rock climbing facility, I'd recommend checking it
out! Rock climbing can be done in an "extreme" way, but also can be done in a
very beginner-friendly, incremental way.

I climb, have lots of friends who climb who do software. The two seem to go
together well.

~~~
icc97
Yes - it's a wonderfully technical activity.

------
quickben
I have a friend that is to damn good as a developer and allowed one of the big
Canadian companies failed projects to burn him out thoroughly.

He is looking into opening a bakery now, and by the look of it, no amount of
convincing is going to change his mind.

So no matter what you do, your mental robustness and coherency comes first.
Don't let anybody every come close at touching that.

Btw opening a bakery is an amazing prospect if you go into it full force
ahead, with happy thoughts and planning. Opening one as a result of a burnout,
well I guess it can be therapeutic, but not sure about the validity of the
idea in that case. Taking half a year off everything can probably bring you
more life force at your disposal.

~~~
dig1
As someone who's been there, it all depends how hard it was. You can recover
from light burnouts quickly (by traveling, taking sports), however, hard
burnouts change you for life - you'll be lucky to not end up as alcoholic or
drug addict.

For me, it took couple of years and few failed jobs until I got on track.
Today, I'm more than happy to be my own boss as freelancer.

~~~
lexhaynes
Hello! I'm currently on the "couple of years and a failed job" track... any
advice?

~~~
jfoutz
Not the op, but, Therapy, exercise, and develop at least a few deep
friendships.

For me talking about stuff helped me realize i was angry and depressed. It's
hard to see how your mind comes up with ideas, an outside observer can point
out motivations for behavior that aren't obvious from inside my own head.

Exercise kind of quiets my mind down. While burning out, work kind of hurts.
It's not exactly but something like painful to execute. With excercise, I kind
of rescale that feeling. Executing on X isn't as bad as running for a half an
hour.

Having a couple of friends you can talk to about whatever is nice. Family is
great too, but they don't always have the perspective to give helpful insight.
Parents, spouses, might not tell you the whole truth, or their perspective is
colored by the past. A friend will tell you you're being an idiot, or not.

------
binalpatel
I'm in the midst of a light burnout right now - and I realize it's partly my
expectations, and partly the expectations of my company.

As part of a start-up you're expected to be insanely productive at all times -
so much so - that "normal" productivity feels like you're spinning your wheels
and not getting anything done.

The other side is the company encouraging being a "hero". Being the one who
can do anything, who gets X, Y, Z done on time, even if it takes all night.
The praise and recognition fades quickly - as you realize you've set the
expectation such that you can function at 200% at all times. (And you start
feeling stressed as you fall to 150%, to 120%, to 100%.)

Some of the comments in this thread are spot on. For the level where I'm at
(not full-bore burnout), I'm trying to prioritize my life outside of work
again (aka have a life outside work). Sleep well, exercise, pick up hobbies
again, go for hikes again, and so on.

Burning out to me - is letting work take up a disproportionate amount of your
time and mental energy - so much so that the microcosm of work starts feeling
like the _most_ important thing.

Getting out of it (for me) is all about regaining that perspective.

~~~
std_throwaway
One thing for a some perspective.

Many people struggle to even achieve 100% most of the time. Work consumes such
great amounts of energy that not much fun can be had on evenings or weekends.
Going out with friends? Forget it. Laying down is most that can be done. Even
though that work is only 8-10 hours each day (not much considering how much
many people work) there is nothing left at the end of the day. All energy is
spent on just keeping oneself alive and getting by. Sometimes even that is too
much and after years of a seemingly good job, everything is gone. Quitting is
not an option since there is not much money saved. Working less won't provide
the money needed to keep on going. Changing jobs won't cut it since all other
jobs would be worse. With friends forgotten and family dead, there is no point
to keep on going.

------
snarfy
Burnout is caused by a series of failures. Your brain is quick to pick up
patterns and will assume your next attempt will be a failure.

To get over burnout, you need a series of successes. Create small, attainable
goals and complete them. Engineers in particular need a sense of
accomplishment. This way you will look forward to you next endeavor instead of
dread it.

~~~
oarsinsync
My personal experience here disagrees. I had a series of failures resulted in
me feeling like I was on tilt, and after identifying that, designed a series
of simple easy wins which helped get over that.

Those easy wins then made it easier to focus and successfully complete a major
9 month infrastructure overhaul without any downtime(!), and while the sense
of accomplishment from completing that successfully was huge (and the bonus
wasn't bad either), the stress during that period was extremely high, and the
resulting burnout was very real. A few months later, as that became obvious, I
quit my job. It took more than 15 months off work before I began to feel even
slightly recovered.

EDIT: and to tie this in to my other post[0], it's also worth noting that all
I was doing during this period was "sleep, work, drink, repeat", which no
doubt contributed to it.

# [0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12986124](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12986124)

------
ultrasandwich
For anyone interested in the wider philosophical questions around stress and
burnout, I recommend reading "The Burnout Society" by Byung-Chul Han [1], a
contemporary Korean-born German philosopher. Very little of his work has been
translated to English, but it's written really well. Makes a compelling case
that the pressure for positivity and achievement lead to self- or auto-
exploitation [2]. If anyone has additional reading recommendations around
this, I'm interested!

[1] -
[http://sup.org/books/title/?id=25725](http://sup.org/books/title/?id=25725)

[2] - [http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2016/01/we-have-
bec...](http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2016/01/we-have-become-
exhausted-slaves-in-a-culture-of-positivity.html)

------
UhUhUhUh
The real problem I see, and experience myself, is a form of addiction to
stress whereby one's cortisol levels eventually raise one's baseline. This
translates into a need for more stress to reach the baseline, which is
perceived as the resting-point. This is achieved easily with quick acting
hormones boost such as adrenaline (base jumping...) but just perpetuates the
problem as it does nothing to lower the baseline... Similarly, one can also
counter cortisol with other hormones, such as oxytocin (love, music),
serotonin (empathy, pride) or endorphins (exercise) or trick the system with
mimicking substances, but that won't solve the problem either. There are also
available options to lower the cortisol baseline (e.g. phosphorylated serine)
but I am afraid that the only way to achieve a permanent normalization is a
change in lifestyle. Even if a profession is stressful in itself (e.g.
restaurant/bakery) it might not be as stress-inducing to me as it is to you.
Reasons for these individual differences are complex and not easily solvable.
No silver bullet. Cortisol can be measured easily with saliva tests. If these
levels are high, including at night, you're stressed out, that you feel so or
not.

------
0xmohit
From DOES16 London - Better Faster Cheaper .. How? (slide #29) [0] [1]:

    
    
      Recipe for burnout is inverse of recipe for success
    
      Word Overload: Job demands exceed human limits.
      Lack of control: Inability to influence decisions that affect your job.
      ...
    

Also: Understanding Burnout [2].

[0] [http://www.slideshare.net/botchagalupe/does16-london-
better-...](http://www.slideshare.net/botchagalupe/does16-london-better-
faster-cheaper-how)

[1] [https://imgur.com/a/5yrMm](https://imgur.com/a/5yrMm)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kLPyV8lBbs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kLPyV8lBbs)

------
davesque
I'm in full-blown burnout mode right now, but it's more related to
dissatisfaction with the work I'm doing. I'm fucking sick and tired of
building web apps and I want to work in more interesting/technical topics such
as computer vision. But the time investment needed to build the background and
experience required to be useful working on those kinds of problems seems
impossible to manage while working full-time. I'm really at a loss as for what
to do. What's worse is that this longing for more meaningful work has begun
morphing into a pretty serious case of depression and is impacting my ability
to do my job. Anyone ever found themselves in this kind of a situation? What
did you do?

~~~
unfamiliar
As someone who just transitioned from university to a pretty much unrelated
programming job, it occurs to me that I could have gone into either web
development or computer vision, to use your example. Either way I would have
been joining a team as a junior developer with only hobbyist experience and
expected to learn on the job. Perhaps if you lowered your salary expectations
and were willing to accept a relatively junior level role you would be able to
break into that area of work, and with your existing experience would be able
to work your way up more quickly than a truly junior dev like myself.

~~~
davesque
I probably would be willing to take a salary hit. Thanks for the advice.

------
woliveirajr
> Dealing with stress over time can break down the body’s ability to deal with
> short bursts of stressful situations, he says.

For what I could get from the article, under (mild) stress your thinking
becomes sharper, but as it lasts longer, it breaks you down and you can't
handle stressful spikes.

So, perhaps, not being stressed all day long is the key? I mean, just surf the
stressful spikes, don't have a light stress constantly, because you won't be
able to deal with those hard moments of stress (and yes, they will come
someday and all you've gained from the light-stress-boost will be thrown away
because you'll burn out).

~~~
Swizec
Acute stress is good (adrenaline -> fight or flight), chronic stress is bad.

So, worrying about money or being fired or <insert real life problem> all day
every day will wear you down and limit your ability to reason. There's not
much brainpower left over. This is why it's, for example, difficult to be
super productive at work when you're going through a divorce or dealing with a
breakup. And why it's never a good idea to launch a new product while moving
house.

But, going bungee jumping or downhill mountain biking or racing cars or just
driving too fast on the freeway. That's relaxing. Gives you focus, gets you
away from the chronic stressors and into the immediate. Wonderful.

~~~
eeZah7Ux
> Acute stress is good (adrenaline -> fight or flight)

citation needed

~~~
simosx
The purpose of stress is to quickly adapt the body to survive a fight. A set
of changes happen to the body.

For example, the blood becomes thicker in order to clot faster when you are
bleeding. However, with chronic stress, this can cause thrombosis.

Under stress, the stomach stops the digestion so that the energy goes into
running to flee the danger. With chronic stress, your stomach is messed up and
you get all sort of indigestion.

And so on. Many examples of changes that have a simple explanation but are
hazardous in chronic stress situations.

For reference, read the Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers or anything by Robert
Sapolsky.

~~~
eeZah7Ux
In the context of the article it looked like "Acute stress is good" was
referring to episodes of acute stress on the workplace.

------
madaxe_again
A large part of why I left my business after eleven years six months ago was
because I mismanaged stress to the degree that it had severe consequences upon
my health.

At the time, like a frog in warming water, I constantly normalised it -
working 20 hours a day for a year isn't stressful, it's heroic! I enjoy this!
I thrive on stress. The booze? Oh, that's just to help keep me awake.

About four years ago I stopped eating and sleeping properly - I mean, previous
to that I hadn't done either properly either, but four years ago it ceased to
be voluntary. I lost huge amounts of weight. I told people I was on a diet. I
started having bouts of delirium and puking that would put me out of action
for days or weeks on end, unable to sip water even, slipping in and out of
sweaty consciousness. I told myself I was just really unlucky with food
poisoning.

About six months ago I just stopped - couldn't go on, couldn't face another
day in the hell I'd created for myself, stomach knotted from anxiety and
hunger but not hunger. Went on sabattical. Watched mountains for months. Read.
Cried. Ranted and raved. Began to heal. Got medical help. Discovered that I
had given myself a stress driven syndrome not really seen since children in
fucking Victorian workhouses - cyclical vomiting syndrome.

Gave notice. Sold equity to company, made orderly transition. Three months on,
I'm still coming to terms - beginning to remember wanting things, having
desires, not feeling like every moment not spent working was a betrayal -
being able to feel something like joy. Above everything else, I haven't puked
in months and I'm even beginning to have to watch my weight.

The main thing I've learned on reflection is that I did this to myself. I
chose roles and responsibilities that crushed me, and I failed to emotionally
disinvest in the company as it grew. I also habituated stress to the degree
that I didn't even perceive it as stress, and denied it to myself even as I
ground my teeth to aching stumps. In hindsight, I can of course aim to not put
myself in the same situation again, but at the time I had nothing to really
check my reality against. People around me were supportive - but rather than
saying "hey, you're killing yourself", it would be "want another coffee? Need
smokes? You work so hard." \- so essentially enabled the behaviour rather than
confronting it. There's an almost dangerously cultish obsession with
industriousness in our society.

I digress.

The other thing I learned that I hadn't really understood was that stress can
ruin your physical, not just mental, health.

~~~
framebit
I'm so sorry about the cyclical vomiting syndrome. I've watched a friend
wrestle with it for years, it's no joke. Her's is also triggered by positive
stress, like excitement to see a favorite band in concert. I'm so glad for you
that things are turning around in your life. It sounds like you've had to do
some hard work to get here. Thank you for sharing.

> There's an almost dangerously cultish obsession with industriousness in our
> society.

Yes!

~~~
madaxe_again
Mine was (I really hope the past tense continues to apply) also triggered by
both positive and negative stress - weddings and work disasters prime
catalysts - but I think the constant high background level of stress was a
mandatory part of it. Used to wake up every morning feeling sick. Don't any
more. Haven't had an attack since I out and out quit.

I hope she continues to find a way through it - it sucked even more when I had
no idea what it was, and was rationalising it, sometimes into nightmarish
proportions.

------
gmfawcett
I recommend Christina Maslach's books on the subject of burnout. Her research
tends to focus on institutional and group-dynamic causes of burnout, which is
a nice counterpoint to the self-care and personal-wellness discussions that
people often have around the subject.

------
koga-ninja
Burnout happens when you're doing what you don't like. Grinding down, going
against the grain. The techniques I use to deal with stress are: Zazen -
Japanese Zen meditation. If it was good enough For Japanese samurai fighting
duels, then my life is So easy compared to this. Painting - very relaxing and
fun, but then you need to like It. Mileage may vary.

~~~
Archimedes_52
I was getting extreme, severe panic attacks and had become agoraphobic. Tai
Chi and meditation changed my life.

------
aivosha
Highly recommend Robert Sapolsky's work on this. You can find his lectures on
youtube, very educational and entertaining on Human Behavioural Biology. And
more to the point his book, [https://www.amazon.ca/Why-Zebras-Dont-Ulcers-
Stress-Related/...](https://www.amazon.ca/Why-Zebras-Dont-Ulcers-Stress-
Related/dp/0805073698)

~~~
simosx
Frankly, this!

You can read from the other comments that it is not common knowledge yet what
stress actually does to you.

Stress as a facility is useful for humans and other animals. It helps the body
to focus on the threat and increase the chance to escape and survive. Stress
makes a tiny damage to the health but once you survive, the body returns to
health.

However, there are cases where you have long-term continuous stress, without
any release. It is common with social animals like humans, and an example is
the burn-out. The tiny damage becomes major damage and can be irreversible.

------
icc97
This is an interesting side to HN. The BBC article is pretty dull, the
comments are far more interesting.

------
rd108
Stress is such a huge killer of productivity and even, at chronic levels,
people. We're trying to put a dent in it - Shameless plug, support our
Kickstarter! [https://getlief.com](https://getlief.com)

------
chhum
I saw John Willis, Director of Ecosystem Development for Docker, talk about
this at QCon London in the context of our industry. First time I've ever cried
at a tech conference; it was an absolutely amazing session. There is a video
here: [https://www.infoq.com/presentations/it-
burnout](https://www.infoq.com/presentations/it-burnout)

------
kinokino
Please don't go to hookers if you are burnout. I was using alot of hookers and
now going through very painful stds.

------
alexgotoi
I would add music and workout. Music help get distressed very easy. And
workout help bringing more oxygen in the system.

~~~
cr1895
>Music help get distressed very easy.

You mean de-stressed, not distressed: the captain of the Titanic sent out a
distress call because his ship was sinking, while the string quartet played
music in hopes of de-stressing the ill-fated passengers.

~~~
alexgotoi
Thank you for correcting me. Wont blame the autocorrect :)

------
BrianMickeyD
Stress is a state of mind and a function of how much you have practiced
stress.

------
known
Drink hot water and go for one hour early morning walk;

~~~
douche
I don't know about the hot water, but definitely taking my dog for a 3-4 mile
walk around town every morning helps me out. Days that it's crappy outside or
I get rushed up and don't have time to do it, I'm considerably more irritable
and less willing to put up with the bs.

------
Kenji
I love how people are like "go for a walk" or "work out" or "sleep more" or
"it's all in your head" (maybe you should tell someone who has pancreatic
cancer "Oh it's all in your belly"). It seems to me like most people don't
understand the incredible destructiveness and pain of an actual burnout. How
trapped you are and how you do not see any way out anymore. I nearly got there
and I have seen people who have been crippled _for life_ by it.

~~~
emilburzo
> (maybe you should tell someone who has pancreatic cancer "Oh it's all in
> your belly")

Well... isn't it?

I actually phrased it as "it's all in your head" to highlight that you _can_
do something about it, unlike cancer, it's something you can control by power
of mind/will (not saying it's easy).

\- formerly burned out.

~~~
qntty
The fact that something is "all in your head" doesn't imply much about how
much control you might have over it. Schizophrenia is "all in your head." Some
people do have a reasonable amount of control over the situation, but many
people have little control.

~~~
0xcde4c3db
> The fact that something is "all in your head" doesn't imply much about how
> much control you might have over it. Schizophrenia is "all in your head."

So is a brain tumor or glaucoma, in a literal sense, but I doubt many people
would seriously use the expression "all in your head" for any of those. In my
experience it's overwhelmingly used for anxiety and depression, with the
implication being that there's no hard physical problem and that you just need
to change your habits/attitude/beliefs (which, incidentally, is an approach
that is notably ineffective for schizophrenia, apart from being done with
_others_ as a harm reduction mechanism).

------
clifanatic
I'm in one of those (inescapable) open-office nightmares right now. All day,
every day, people are talking right next to me, making it impossible to
concentrate. They're not even talking about work, they're talking about cars,
or kids, or movies, or inane bullshit. I don't care that they're talking (and
apparently management doesn't either, because since we're in a panopticon, if
I know it, they know it too), but when they do it five feet away from me, I
can't block it out or concentrate. I can concentrate well enough to write this
post on Hacker News, but I can't concentrate well enough to put together a
workable recommendation on centralized identity and access management. But
I'll be asked for a recommendation on identity and access management anyway,
because I'm expected to know every answer to every question off the top of my
head instantaneously, even though I haven't been able to concentrate on
anything effectively for the past ten years. Yeah, team work makes the dream
work. BRB, going to set the building on fire.

~~~
acron0
Quick answer: Headphones and music/white noise.

Long answer: If you really feel this strongly about your working environment
then you should seriously consider telling your manager. It's in their best
interests that you're happy/comfortable/working as smoothly as you can. If
they can't or won't change your situation, look for another employer. Ten
years, Christ.

~~~
clifanatic
> look for another employer. Ten years, Christ.

Actually I've had 3 over the past ten years. They're all the same. You've
never noticed?

~~~
rl3
Hopefully the previous two didn't burn down...

------
dilemma
The best professional skill is compartmentalizing.

 _Leave work at work._

~~~
digitalsushi
That advice is about as useful to me as "you're depressed, so snap out of it!"
I don't mean that as an attack, it's just that what is obvious to some people
is very, very difficult for others to do so simply.

~~~
dilemma
No, it's extremely useful, and no different than other people in the thread
who express how exercise or hobbies have helped them cope with work stress.
They're implying compartmentalization too, because having a hobby shows that
there's more to life than work life.

~~~
digitalsushi
You're right! I just didn't have the ability to see that. Thanks for your
insights.

~~~
SticksAndBreaks
You can replace work thoughts with work on your sideproject thoughts. That
helps... a little bit

------
TheOneTrueKyle
Probably unpopular, but has anyone tried psychedelics?

I always use it to "reformat" some terrible behaviors due to stress.

Definitely not the answer to anyone's problems, but perhaps gives a new
perspective.

------
dschiptsov
Are they trying to say that exercises are good to us, until it is too much?
What does not kill us makes us stronger.

~~~
saiya-jin
you can screw up your body in numerous ways if you overdo it, ie grow enlarged
heart, screw up joints or spine and end up semi-disabled relatively young.
just look at pro lifters, most of them after career end up obese with various
health issues, some barely able to walk or lift anything more than sheet of
paper.

it's a think line to walk, unique to each of us, where you try to grow as much
as you can without crossing it

~~~
dschiptsov
That is what I failed to emphasize - it must be "just right" \- not too much
and not too little - optimal - slightly better than good-enough.)

