
Glyphosate in Organic Hydroponic Food Production - sahin-boydas
https://livelovefruit.com/glyphosate-in-organic-hydroponic-food
======
designium
At least, when I am purchasing "Organic" products, I would expect to use the
least or zero amount of pesticide/herbicide/etc. in the growth of the
"organic" plants and animals.

If the article is showing the truth, it feels like those companies are
cheating the consumers who are paying for that premium product. It's also
unfortunate that there are certifications companies that are either created or
"cooped" by companies that are really interested in bending the rules for
their own sake.

Not sure if there is a way to block or hamper those interest group
effectively.

*Edited: I understand that the companies are using the herbicide before the planting in order to "kill" whatever is there; however, the concept of organic - the way I believe - should avoid the usage of chemicals that are being used in the massive agriculture for cash crops; and even if that is not being actively use in the "organic" plant.

~~~
cwojno
Organic is a marketing term created by organic companies. Growing things
without herbicides and pesticides is very difficult.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
No, that's not true, it's the strongest USDA mandated and certified food
standard available in the USA. The USA standard is far weaker than EU's
organic standard, which is weaker than the UK's, but it is still the strongest
defined standard in the US market.

Not only do those standards limit pesticides, they restrict frequency and
amount of what is permissible. The European standards have additional rules
around animal welfare (I'm less sure about the US here) - which make organic
the most animal friendly way of buying food, regardless of whether or not you
care about organic's aims or use of pesticides.

~~~
zaarn
The problem is that the term "organic" in the US includes pesticides that
are... less healthy than normal ones.

They are organic pesticides, those are after all okay, but they are more
generica than targeted pesticides and tend to be worse for the environment and
the human body (Kurzgesagt has a very good video on that).

~~~
cwojno
Some pesticides that are banned by the organics label are actually pretty
terrible for humans and the environment.

~~~
zaarn
And some pesticides allowed by the organics label are actually pretty terrible
for the huamns and the environment.

------
tptacek
I don't have an opinion for or against use of glyphosate with "organic" food
and share the general cynicism of the thread about the "organic" label.

But this site has a strong position on glyphosate (in accepting the premise
that it is a "probable human carcinogen"), which is worth staying aware of.
That position is probably totally reasonable for their audience, but keep in
mind that it's automatically being recontextualized by being posted on HN.

So on this site, it's worth keeping in mind that glyphosate's status as a
human health bogeyman is, at least, debatable. There is a huge amount of
controversy over the manner in which IARC came to its conclusion, other health
agencies have sharply disagreed with it, and, perhaps most importantly for
this article, the exposure scenarios connecting cancer risk to glyphosate
probably aren't relevant to food consumers.

Since part of the point of glyphosate is to reduce application of stronger
herbicides that are more biologically active in humans, and those herbicides
are generally neither known by name to consumers nor banned from agriculture,
it's worth splitting hairs here.

~~~
chimi
The site is not credible. This is not news, it's propaganda. The article
doesn't belong here. It's just provocation designed to make amazon affiliate
money.

For example, the article says:

> For those of you who don’t know – anything that touches the soil eventually
> gets taken up by the plant. It becomes apart of the plants tissues and DNA.
> It is unavoidable.

The point of hydroponic farming is the plants don't touch the soil. They don't
take anything out of the soil at all. Glyphosate does not become part of a
plant's DNA.

Edit: Down votes why?

It's an anti-vax website for crying out loud:

[https://livelovefruit.com/still-vaccinating-25-questions-
for...](https://livelovefruit.com/still-vaccinating-25-questions-former-pro-
vaccine-advocate/)

------
infogulch
The article has an update at the top that references this USDA memo [1] that
summarizes the regulation. I'm not sure how much of the article is invalid as
a result, but it seems to make claims that are directly refuted by the memo
dated 6 months before the article was published.

[1]:
[https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/2019-Cert...](https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/2019-Certifiers-
Container-Crops.pdf)

~~~
zephix
Yeah. It certainly appears to invalidate the entire article.

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koolba
> NOP argues that because glyphosate does not “touch” the plants being
> certified, it is technically still “organic.” If that’s not the craziest
> assumption I’ve heard in regards to organic food production, I don’t know
> what is. For those of you who don’t know – anything that touches the soil
> eventually gets taken up by the plant. It becomes apart of the plants
> tissues and DNA. It is unavoidable.

IIUC, they’re spraying the ground with glyphosate to clear it, then after some
time period of it dissipating, planting atop the soil but not applying the
herbicide again during the crops growing phase.

If the plants being grown are not glyphosate resistant (e.g. “roundup ready”)
and there’s a non-trivial level of it remaining in the soil, wouldn’t that
kill the crops? Reversing that, are there any significant levels in the ground
or absorbed by the plants at that point? Seems like it’s a “no”.

~~~
ac29
> If the plants being grown are not glyphosate resistant (e.g. “roundup
> ready”) and there’s a non-trivial level of it remaining in the soil,
> wouldn’t that kill the crops?

No, because hydroponic crops are not planted into the soil.

~~~
koolba
I totally missed the hydroponic part but now I’m even more confused. If the
plants are hydroponic than what are they spraying and why? The land around and
under the greenhouse?

~~~
bardworx
That’s how I’m reading it. They spray the ground to clear it and the plants
are in a container atop the soil.

If the farmer plants in the soil that was treated, it can’t be considered
organic for 3 years (unless the substance that was used is certified for
organic crops)

------
sbassi
The title is misleading. The Glyphosate is used in the soil BEFORE the
greenhouse is built. This prevent weeds to break the greenhouse plastics. But
is not administered to the final product that goes to the final consumer.

~~~
objektif
Where do the potatos grow? Same soil isnt it? Isnt this a childish way to
argue about it?

~~~
cortesoft
No... these are hydroponic, meaning they are grown without soil.

------
leoh
Organic certifiers have differing standards. Given the continued demand for
organic — even Walmart is bullish on it these days — unscrupulous certifiers
like the USDA will cut corners. In response, great certifiers like CCOF
([https://ccof.org/](https://ccof.org/)) and Oregon Tilth
([https://tilth.org/](https://tilth.org/)), which would never allow the use of
glyphosate, will seek to distinguish themselves from the pack.

------
all_blue_chucks
Organic has always been a marketing gimmick to help sell generic food
products. If it were actually about pesticide-free farming it would be called
"pesticide-free" not "organic."

~~~
axaxs
It is a pretty stupid term, moreso if you think about it from the mindset of
organic chemistry...

------
xref
The specific bit where it is allowed on hydroponic farms:

> glyphosate (an incredibly toxic herbicide that is absolutely prohibited on
> organic farms) is being sprayed on fields prior to constructing hydroponic
> greenhouses awaiting organic certification. This is done to remove weeds
> from the greenhouses.

~~~
jsilence
By the way, glyphosate is not at all "incredibly toxic". Its toxicity, the
debatable claim about causing cancer set aside since that is not about
toxicity, is well below that of coffee. It would be safe to ingest larger
amounts of glyphosate, and people actually have done that.

------
RachelF
I don't understand this at all:

Why would you need kill weeds (unwanted plants) if you are growing your plants
hydrophonically?

What am I missing?

~~~
undersuit
Glyphosate disrupts a key biochemical pathway in most plants and bacteria and
probably some other lifeforms I don't know about. Hydroponic grow-ops can
still deal with weeds, one I know about is duckweed, an incredibly invasive
water plant.

------
mikeiz404
So I am a little confused here. My understanding of hydroponics, a method
which uses an inert medium for the root system to grow in and is often a
relatively closed system, aquaponics, also a pretty closed system which uses
water for the roots to grow in, and aeroponics, a relatively closed system
which uses a fine mist for the root system, have pretty much zero interaction
with the soil which is outside of the system.

What is stated is that

> _glyphosate...is being sprayed on fields prior to constructing hydroponic
> greenhouses awaiting organic certification. This is done to remove weeds
> from the greenhouses._

> _The way this use of herbicide is incorporated into “organic” certification
> is to...level a field, compact it..., wait...until the weeds...have
> germinated. And then spray it with an herbicide. They are doing this in
> California and Florida. The weeds...can grow straight through the black
> plastic._

What I take away is that the herbicide is being sprayed as part of
construction on the ground and then it is covered. My guess is that this black
plastic is used as a weed block and or helps isolate the outside environment.

> _the NOP continues to assert that hydroponic, aquaponic, and aeroponic
> production is allowed (1). NOP argues that because glyphosate does not
> “touch” the plants being certified, it is technically still “organic._

Typically in a hydroponic setup you’re growing the root system in a container
filled with a nutrient solution which is not in contact with the soil so it
seems reasonable to assume the plant will not be in contact with the soil.
Except for maybe the air, the inputs to the plant should also be isolated from
the soil. At least that is my understanding. Please feel free to correct any
errors here.

So from a strictly certification standpoint I can understand why the fruit
would remain organic. However it does seem to violate the intent I assume most
people buy organic products for.

Personally I’m not sure where I stand on glyphosates at the moment but given
language like this in the article...

> _Using common sense, this would rightfully deem any product non-organic –
> but this doesn’t seem to be the case for hydroponics_

> _Besides the fact that it is obvious that organics cannot and should not be
> sprayed with glyphosate, the NOP continues to assert that..._

> _If that’s not the craziest assumption I’ve heard in regards to organic food
> production, I don’t know what is..._

I feel like some of this needs to be balanced out and we approach this with
our eyes fully open.

Some relevant resources:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate)
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics)
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaponics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaponics)
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroponics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroponics)

------
peterwwillis
This article makes zero sense. It's about hydroponics - growing plants in
water, without soil. But it's complaining about spraying the ground that a
greenhouse is built on top of.

Am I missing something, or is glyphosate going into the ground, and the plants
are never touching the ground?

~~~
tinix
Pretty much, that's how I read it too. This has nothing to do with glyphosate
being on the hydroponic crops.

It says it right there in the article:

> This is all because the USDA does not consider spraying toxic herbicides
> like glyphosate on the soil immediately prior to inspection to be a
> disqualifier for organic certification.

> According to Jennifer, because the plant itself is not being exposed to
> prohibited substances like glyphosate, spraying the ground with herbicides
> the week before organic certification is 100% legal.

------
zephix
lol the update completely invalidates the clickbait premise of this extremist
article. I can't imagine why it's being upvoted.

------
droithomme
Round-Up is not really my idea of Organic.

The organic label was coopted years ago and has meant very little for years.

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prvc
The buried lede here is that "organic", as applied to food is itself a
meaningless concept. It's just an ersatz religious practice. What assurance is
there that no glyphosate particles have found their way onto your artisanal
apple grown in zebu manure?

~~~
thrower123
The only way to know for sure is to plant your own garden. Although when
you've had the Japanese beetles or cutworm or potato bugs ravage your harvest,
considerations about being 100% organic lose some of their weight and it takes
a lot of commitment not to break out the rotenone or Sevin.

~~~
wahern
> The only way to know for sure is to plant your own garden

Presuming you test your soil, first. Leaded paint and leaded gasoline have
heavily contaminated large parts of residential land, especially those parts
closest to buildings.

Unlike with commercial produce where only a particular plant here or there may
have come from a contaminated patch of land, if your garden is contaminated
you're being exposed regularly.

Similarly, even if all the land around you is pristine, who knows what a
previous owner may have done at any particular spot. Maybe someone once
stacked a dozen, leaky lead-acid batteries where you want to plant your
garden. It's kind of unthinkable for many people today (if only because we're
not a fix-it yourself society much anymore), but people regularly did dumb
stuff like that years ago, and some still do today.

