
Germany plans to fingerprint children, spy on personal messaging - nilson
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-security-encryption-idUKKBN1951VG
======
jvdh
The headline is misleading. They are not planning to fingerprint all children.
They are lowering the age at which refugee children are being fingerprinted
(from 14 to 6). This is part of the EU process of making sure that refugees
are handled properly.

~~~
mschuster91
The problem is that the fingerprint data will not be used exclusively for
immigration purposes but also for general crime fighting.

I oppose that - because it is the first step to extend the surveillance state.
Next to no one cares if refugees are forced to give up their fingerprints
(except maybe the radical left), most people will actually silently approve of
this, but who guarantees that in four years this won't be extended to every
German?

And yes, there's precedence for politicians doing this - the Maut data, as
well as the Vorratsdatenspeicherung (internet provider data), were once
thought to be only for serious crimes but there are already plans to use the
data also to fight "common lowlevel crime"...

We may trust our current governments but we cannot trust what future
governments will do.

~~~
bad_user
Given the high rate of incidents that Europe is having with immigrants, the
alternative is to _close the borders_. So at this point, pick your poison: let
tens or hundreds of thousands die of war or starvation, or take away freedoms
that they wouldn't have without having crossed those borders anyway.

I'm a libertarian at heart, I've been very sympathetic towards refugees,
however seeing lots of immigrants misbehave in my trips to the UK and Germany,
I'm beginning to understand nationalism and why people have a periodic
tendency towards populism (e.g. Trump, Brexit, etc).

The whole purpose of fingerprinting is crime fighting. Nothing else. There's
no such thing as "immigration purposes". And when you're going into somebody's
house, you obey their rules, otherwise you're free to go elsewhere.

~~~
mschuster91
> Given the high rate of incidents that Europe is having with immigrants, the
> alternative is to close the borders.

"high rate of incidents"? Next to all recent terrorist attacks in the last
years involved people who were born in Europe. According to Sascha Lobo and
other media reports, all of them were known to police for being violent and
dangerous, one of the London terrorists actually was on a TV show "the
jihadist next door".

And the (real) problems, e.g. overcrowding refugee camps, could be solved by
solidarity in Europe, but right now it's Italy and Greece picking up the brunt
of the load, then Germany - and then, with a vast distance, every other
country in Europe. Despite especially the Eastern European (Visegrad)
countries having profited massively by financial solidarity from the rest of
Europe (which is mainly DE, FR, UK).

> however seeing lots of immigrants misbehave in my trips to the UK and
> Germany, I'm beginning to understand nationalism and why people have a
> periodic tendency towards populism (e.g. Trump, Brexit, etc).

They have a tendency to nationalism/populism because populism does not work
with evidence and facts but rather with emotions and propaganda.

> The whole purpose of fingerprinting is crime fighting. Nothing else.

Well, let's take the immigration discussion out of the view for one moment:
for now, for example, protests are legal. But what prevents a future
government from using fingerprint data or especially biometric photo data to
prosecute people for protesting against government?

Nothing. And this is why such movements must be stopped before a future
government turns against its citizens.

------
nyolfen
considering at least two islamist attacks in germany by a refugee have been
carried by a minor[1][2], i don't think that fingerprinting refugee minors
should be out of the question -- though obviously the details should be
carefully deliberated.

there is absolutely no way that mandatory government spyware on phones will
guarantee effectiveness, though -- the bataclan attackers for instance used
ordinary sms to coordinate[3]. besides that, the potential for abuse is
unfathomable.

[1]
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/16/boy-12-attempted-...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/16/boy-12-attempted-
blow-nail-bomb-german-christmas-market/)

[2] [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/18/german-train-
axe-...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/18/german-train-axe-attack-
many-injured/)

[3]
[https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_terrori...](https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_terrorist.html)

~~~
cholantesh
The first attack was not carried out by a refugee, at least, not per the text
of the article.

------
skookumchuck
The odds of being killed in a terrorist attack in Europe or the US are
essentially zero. But the odds of being killed in a car crash, by a hospital
mistake, falling in the shower, are very real.

This is a classic, and irrational, disproportionate response.

Besides, is there any evidence that monitoring 100% of message traffic will
reduce terrorist attacks? Are terrorists really so dumb they're going to plan
their attacks via a monitored channel? Do governments really have any problem
catching and convicting criminals?

~~~
CaptSpify
> Are terrorists really so dumb they're going to plan their attacks via a
> monitored channel?

Actually yes! The Paris attack was coordinated via sms. I know other attacks
have been coordinated via monitored channels.

The real problem is that even with all this monitoring, nothing is being done
to stop terrorist attacks. Turns out, stopping terrorist attacks was never the
point in the first place, who woulda though!?!

[https://theintercept.com/2015/11/18/signs-point-to-
unencrypt...](https://theintercept.com/2015/11/18/signs-point-to-unencrypted-
communications-between-terror-suspects/)

*edit: It's probably not fair to say "nothing" is being done. But we're definitely putting our efforts into the wrong direction, and I stand by the statement that the point is not to stop the attacks.

~~~
skookumchuck
> The Paris attack was coordinated via sms.

Coordinated, yes, but I seriously doubt they texted their intentions and
purpose.

------
mtkd
this is happening by the backdoor - at the last school we used we got a letter
saying a US defence manufacturer was providing a library system for the UK
school that used biometrics "let us know if you have a problem with this" \- I
suspect it was provided at little or no cost

the new door entry system at the current school (I don't know the vendor yet)
is using biometrics "let us know if you have a problem with this"

1.28M (2015) UK school children have given biometrics:

[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-
news/p...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/privacy-
concerns-raised-as-more-than-one-million-pupils-are-fingerprinted-in-
schools-9034897.html)

------
jugbee
Wow Germany, mandatoory backdoors? And I had my hopes in you

------
olegkikin
The title is false. Has nothing to do with IT. Admins?

~~~
jugbee
Germany wants to backdoor cellphones, how is that not related to IT?

------
tempodox
My next startup will offer a carrier pigeon service.

