
What adolescents think of mindfulness in schools - DanBC
https://psyche.co/ideas/its-time-to-hear-what-adolescents-think-of-mindfulness-in-schools
======
tomhoward
I've seen it suggested in other articles here before that mindfulness programs
for employees are often a way for employers to try and get their staff to be
more accepting of crappy conditions, or unpleasant, meaningless or unethical
work.

It sounds to me like the same kind of thing might also apply in schools.

I'm sure the school teachers and administrators mean well. I'm sure they don't
consciously realise what a nightmare their institutions have become for many
of the students in their care. Even if they do realise, they didn't choose for
it to be that way.

The sad fact is that modern life has become a horrible nightmare for many
people, grownups and kids alike. Mindfulness has become a popular attempt to
paper over the problems, but in truth, many people who are having coping
problems or exhibiting "mental illness" are really having understandable
reactions to the dysfunction they're sensing in the world.

To be clear: I'm in no way averse to emotional wellbeing techniques that are
effective and that increase the agency of participants. I've gone very deep on
this kind of work in my own life, and have benefited greatly.

But I think the outcomes, and indeed the intentions, of mainstream mindfulness
programs are quite different to this, and are sadly far more focused on
maintaining the status quo for institutions and modern mainstream society.

~~~
alecbenzer
> I've seen it suggested in other articles here before that mindfulness
> programs for employees are often a way for employers to try and get their
> staff to be more accepting of crappy conditions, or unpleasant, meaningless
> or unethical work.

I'm not sure I buy this. I suppose it's true that being better able to
tolerate unpleasant situations does mean you might put up with them for
longer. And _while meditating_ , yes, the goal is to not react to things
you're feeling.

But for me, a big benefit of mindfulness is more clarity on where my emotions
are coming from. I'd sometimes feel tense, or upset, or nervous, but couldn't
even really _notice_ I was feeling that way, let alone why I was feeling that
way.

I think clarity there generally helps people change their conditions more than
it urges them to just accept them.

~~~
tomhoward
> But for me, a big benefit of mindfulness is more clarity on where my
> emotions are coming from

That's what I'd say about the emotional work I do, so I'm not criticising that
kind of work if that is the actual outcome, and if it leads to more authentic
perception of one's surroundings and increased ability to make decisions that
are best for one's self and the world long-term.

I'm just questioning whether that really is the outcome or indeed the
intention for programs branded as "mindfulness" in workplaces, schools, etc.

~~~
savolai
My understanding is that there is an actual definition and research of
mindfulness that can be used to evaluate and I guess even benchmark whether a
given program actually is using the methods as intended?

~~~
tomhoward
Can you point to any links to details of what you mean?

------
itronitron
As my grandmother used to say, _you can 't fool dogs and children_.

>> As Jack, a 13-year-old student at a school in a post-industrial town in the
UK, explained: ‘They’re trying to teach us to choose what we want but then not
letting us choose anything at all.’

Students are very quick to see through their teachers' bullshit as they have
years of practice by the time they are adolescents.

The current convention seems to be that if students can't life-hack their
school then there must be something wrong with them. That lack of self-
reflection on the part of teachers and schools is telling, and probably a big
reason for student anxiety in the first place.

~~~
op03
Well you need to cut them some slack.

Schools, teachers and parents are in a very difficult position these days
because of how fast things are changing. They are constantly overloaded with
info about what's good for the kid. Even developmental psychologists,pedagogy
experts and edu depts get overloaded and feel pressure to pass opinions on
everything under the sun without serious evaluation. Learning takes Time. So
evaluation of any method takes time. But the pressure to try X Y or Z builds
up so quickly that anyone pushing back can easily be labeled a dinosaur and
kicked out the room.

And its all happening in the useless attention arms race type environment the
tech sector has created where what and who gets propped up depends on whose
TED talk got more views, how much time they self promote, and 'what can scale
faster'.

Such an environment will keep producing a whole lot of failed experiments.

~~~
twodave
All this bearing in mind we haven’t really seen any sustainable improvement in
test scores in the last ~50 years. What is even the point of having an
education arms race while the same people groups average pretty much the same
aptitude for the tests? SAT scores for language have worsened while math has
remained fairly consistent since the 70s, which suggests to me that those
scores are loosely (if at all) related to educational strategy.

I may not have a popular opinion, but I think our focus should be more on
supporting families to raise their children instead of what amounts in my mind
to free day care, especially for children 10 and under.

~~~
watwut
Wait, drop out rates are down. People are more likely to finish education then
they used 50 years ago. Maybe the top who goes to college did not raised up
that much, but average if you include low performers did.

~~~
twodave
I haven’t seen that data, and it is a fair point. Still, I would argue that at
least part of that shift is a result of changes in employability. When my
parents were in school, a college degree was not yet considered a pre-
requisite for so many people who are entering the work force. In fact, neither
of my parents had a degree, yet we were able to live comfortably on just my
father’s income. And for those who still carry that view, the situation is
much worse today than it was then.

------
alecbenzer
_> In many programmes, students learn that emotions such as anger, anxiety and
fear stem from reactions in a brain region called the amygdala. They are
taught that mindfulness helps them identify and manage these emotions by
activating the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain associated with
behavioural regulation. In doing so, students are taught that mindfulness
creates space in which we can ‘choose our response’ as opposed to reacting or
lashing out. In the words of one programme, mindfulness gives us ‘the freedom
to choose’._

 _> These might sound like reasonable claims, but they imply a dichotomy
between emotions and reason, and the superiority of ‘rational’ responses to
distress. This idea derives not from traditional mindfulness but from liberal
Western ideals. Historically, these ideals have served to undermine oppressed
groups, as anger and resistance is perceived as irrational._

The article's commentary here seems out-of-touch with most mindfulness
instruction I've experienced. It's usually emphasized to notice things in as
non-judgmental a way as possible; you're definitely not encouraged to label
anger or any other emotion as "irrational".

Mindfulness does give you the freedom to choose. It wouldn't be freedom to
choose if the choice was always to ignore anger: sometimes anger is useful,
other times it isn't; mindfulness helps you notice that and act accordingly.

~~~
BiteCode_dev
You can see the same misconceptions when people expect mindful meditation to
always:

\- relax them

\- make them happy

\- make them less emotional

But with practice I learned that some sessions are extremely emotional, full
of stress or sorrow. It's not uncommon to feel pain, distress or to cry deeply
during intense meditation retreats.

The process improves one existence by making us live those aspects of our life
better. Not by taking them away.

Now of course, on the long run, it will make people more relaxed, happier,
etc. Making you fitter to live with yourself.

But not by removing, ignoring or suppressing suffering.

It's still here. It will always be here. That's the point of meditating.

Mindfulness forces us to observe it as it is. You see your contradictions,
your scars and your urges. You see your masks, conditioning and reflexes.

If anything, it removes dichotomy. Not add to it.

In fact, from what I witnessed, meditation tends to make people remove layers
in general. I rarely hear meditators talking about adding ones.

And mindfulness is certainly not emotions vs reason.

It has nothing to do with either.

Emotions and reason are here. You observe them, and yourself using them. But
the fact you use them is not part of the technique. It's just a part of you,
and like all parts of you, you are invited to observe it.

Like everybody, when I started years ago, I confused "be detached" with "don't
feel", "label it unimportant", "try to relax". That's not it.

What you feel or the label you use are just not part of the teaching. They
don't matter at all (for the practice). What matters is that you observe it.

~~~
a-nikolaev
Thank you, this is the most compelling argument for meditation I've ever seen.

Don't want to sound too ignorant (although I might be), but more often than
not I encounter much simpler interpretations of meditation and its goals that
(to me) sound more like instructions to wall off rather than to find peace
with yourself. They also sometimes come with a tacit shaming of strong
emotions, but as the saying goes: "when a measure becomes a target, it ceases
to be a good measure". I think that pushing for no strong emotions at all (at
least on the surface) does promote walling off rather than actually
understanding yourself better, which sometimes requires you to be out of
balance. Like in math, always going up can lead you to a local maximum only,
and to reach a global maximum you have to walk downhill once in a while.

~~~
BiteCode_dev
> more often than not I encounter much simpler interpretations of meditation
> and its goals that (to me) sound more like instructions to wall off rather
> than to find peace with yourself.

I've notice this at several occasions.

It is not specific to meditation though.

Agile software development, as practiced behind corporate walls, is very
different what Beck and Schwaber talked about in the 90'.

Thanks to MMA, we know now that many modern martial art teachings are not
practical from a self-defense perspective.

Many may claim they follow the ideal of the same famous religious figure, and
confronted with each others, will end up with opposite opinions on how to live
one life.

As soon as something become mainstream, it is bound to be adapted into
different variations of what it was initially intended. Yet we keep the same
name for it.

For what I know, what I'm practicing is also a variation of a variation of a
variation of something.

~~~
e12e
> Thanks to MMA, we know now that many modern martial art teachings are not
> practical from a self-defense perspective.

I don't disagree with the general point that there are martial art schools
that do not teach effective self defense - but I'm not sure how MMA figures in
to it.

Self defense is about situational awareness, coping with multiple attackers,
probably armed. Often you may have a way of de-escalating the situation (eg:
give them your wallet).

I suppose in the instance of a single un-armed rapist (often the case when the
victim knows the attacker) MMA has increased the focus on grappling (ie:
judu/jujutsu/bjj and various wrestling techniques).

I'm not sure what else the popularity of MMA has thought us about self
defense.

Now, if your talking about ring fighting with a particular ruleset, one on
one, with a referee... That might be something else.

------
noodlesUK
This feels very much like mindfulness is trying to be used as a bandaid to
cover the (metaphorical) sucking chest wound of student mental health. Schools
can be absolutely miserable places for many students. Bullying is rampant,
both from students and staff, students are forced to be there, and have very
little choice in how to spend their days. If we want to improve mental health
in young people, look closely at how we run schools. Reduce class sizes, give
students self determination. These aren’t easy steps though.

~~~
njb311
While I agree with your points, I’d reframe them slightly: it’s a sucking
chest wound of teenage mental health.

Schools are having to deal with young people who come to them with problems
from outside. Schools can make them better or worse, but that’s loading a
responsibility onto schools way beyond education. The fact that we are even
having to consider non-traditional subjects/activities like mindfulness as a
treatment to help kids get through the day, rather than to help prepare them
for adult life, is a huge red flag.

We can look closely at how we run schools, but where is the scrutiny on
parenting? There is a ton of assessment of teachers and metrics on school
performance (whether they are a good thing or not in improving outcomes is a
different matter). Serious problems in the home are generally picked up by
social services – and you could say that they function as a bandaid to cover
the sucking chest wound of adult mental health - but straightforward poor
parenting is far more widespread, how do we fix that?

If we want to improve mental health in young people we need to look closely at
how we run society. Schools could help, but only if they were adequately
funded for everything they are being expected to deliver.

~~~
sukilot
Schools are in loco parentis. Schools are parents. That's what day care is --
part time parenting. They should do their part, with appropriate staff and
resources. Parents at home should be supported as well. But this all costs
money that is being diverted to the military industrial complex and other
graft.

~~~
njb311
No, schools are not parents. Acting in loco parentis means acting in the place
of the parent while they aren’t there, not becoming the parent. It places a
duty of care to safeguard the child and act in its best interests. It does not
mean raising the child. It is the misguided attitude of some parents that
somehow the school is responsible for parenting children that is probably half
the problem.

And yes, parents should have support. This used to come from much stronger,
multigenerational family units. Where that isn’t the case, few would consider
attending parenting classes even if they were available. But don’t get me
wrong, I don’t think it’s necessarily just about that, as I said originally, I
think adult mental wellbeing is a bigger problem than is generally recognised.
Anxiety, aggression, apathy, these transfer from the parent to the child.

------
MarcScott
I've been through so many educational fads, in my time as a teacher, that it's
difficult not to be cynical.

When I first started teaching it was all about Visual, Auditory and
Kinaesthetic learners. Then brain gyms, then multiple intelligences, then
personality typing. To be honest, I've lost track of the number of new
strategies that I've had CPD for in those first few days back at school every
September.

Mindfulness was just starting to creep in when I quit the formal education
game. I'd bet that it'll be gone within five years, replaced with some new and
shiny fad.

------
nabla9
I strongly agree with this.

Any mindfulness for children or adults must be just offering. You should't
make it regular thing that everyone must attend. You can't motivate
mindfulness from the outside.

Some people just have very bad reactions to mindfulness even if they try it
voluntarily. It may be ongoing psychological issue or something else. People
seem more or less similar on the outside, but they have very different
experiences when they turn their mind inwards.

~~~
fnenrjfkdke
> Some people just have very bad reactions to mindfulness even if they try it
> voluntarily.

This is interesting. Can you share any particular examples?

~~~
onei
One example in the article was trauma, which seems reasonable. Home situations
for children vary wildly and I wouldn't expect children to be mentally
equipped if they're exposed to abuse, bereavement, etc. Teaching them to
virtually bottle up their emotions is something I'd expect to end badly sooner
or later.

~~~
sukilot
No one is talking about bottling up emotions.

------
davesque
> _Within educational contexts, being well-behaved is seen as rational and
> ‘good’, while resistance to authority is seen as irrational or ‘bad’. Since
> mindfulness encourages young people to be calm, complacent and attentive, it
> can promote these moral hierarchies: of good or bad behaviour, and hence,
> well-behaved or naughty students._

This seems to me much more like a problem with typical "educational contexts"
than with mindfulness. In my experience, you try and be more mindful of your
emotions so you can make better (perhaps more efficient) decisions and changes
in your life in response to those emotions. And that naturally conflicts with
environments where the expectations are very rigid and more or less set in
stone e.g. where there's a clear "authority" (like a teacher) in control and
very precise boundaries about what kind of behavior is acceptable.

> _As Kelly, 13, explained: I really hated it when I had to close my eyes … I
> felt really uncomfortable because there were people in the group that I
> didn’t trust … Some of the practices did help me but it would be better if
> you could choose to do it with people you like._

Again, I think this is much more a problem with the typical school environment
than with mindfulness. What does it say that a child doesn't feel comfortable
simply closing their eyes momentarily in some environment? Not good things if
you ask me. Frankly, I've often thought it's cruel and unusual to place large
numbers of children together for large periods of time as is done in a public
school setting. Children can be ruthless when they bully each other and
readily succumb to their worst instincts.

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
The fact that someone doesn't feel comfortable about something doesn't mean
that their feelings are warranted. When dealing with anxiety disorders or
phobias, the last thing experts recommend is avoidance of that which causes
anxiety. In fact, exposure therapy helps drastically with it.

~~~
waterhouse
Ok, how does exposure therapy actually work?

Wiki sez: "Exposure therapy is based on the principle of respondent
conditioning often termed Pavlovian extinction.[16] The exposure therapist
identifies the cognitions, emotions and physiological arousal that accompany a
fear-inducing stimulus and then tries to break the pattern of escape that
maintains the fear. This is done by exposing the patient to progressively
stronger fear-inducing stimuli.[17] Fear is minimized at each of a series of
steadily escalating steps or challenges (a hierarchy), which can be explicit
("static") or implicit ("dynamic" — see Method of Factors) until the fear is
finally gone.[18] The patient is able to terminate the procedure at any time."

That is, to my interpretation, the idea is to expose the patient to the scary
stimulus under conditions that are kept as nice, safe, and comfortable as
possible, so that the Pavlovian part of their brain will learn to stop
associating the stimulus with fear.

This is entirely different from "keep throwing them into the feared situation,
against their will and without any particular effort to make it more safe or
pleasant".

------
Barrin92
mindfulness and meditation seems to be all the rage in recent years but
looking at the physical state of many students these days and the stated goal:

> _" The goal is to help them develop resilience, improve their attention and
> self-regulation, and prevent everyday stress spiralling into major
> psychological problems. "_

I'd maybe recommend greatly expanding physical exercise and team sports
because not only does it address many of the points above it also will reduce
obesity and balance out general inactivity. Physical education seems to be
severely neglected. Both quality and quantity.

~~~
silveroriole
Were you one of the kids who was good at sports? I remember school PE as being
horrible for mental health. Anyone awkward, uncoordinated, unpopular, unhappy
with their body, or just totally uninterested in competitive sports spent
those lessons being ignored at best, shouted at at worst. Funny how in primary
school we all happily ran about and played together at lunchtime, but enforced
sports days and team sports made it very clear who was “good” and who was
“bad”, and that those of us who were bad should just stay out of the way and
not inconvenience our teammates. COMPETITIVE sports are obviously going to
make those at the bottom miserable and foster resentment towards them: that’s
kind of the point.

e: oh, and let’s not forget the horrifying combinations of changing rooms,
showers and puberty... and for those of us with glasses there was a whole
extra dimension of being forced to swim or dodge flying balls in the rain
while literally semi-blind...!

~~~
huffmsa
PE is a bad example case. Infrequent, with random team assignments, playing
random new sports and activities each class is obviously and definitely skewed
towards those who are predisposed to coordination and teamwork traits.

What the parent, and I in another comment are talking about is team sports
with the same team, playing the same sport on a regular basis.

Not many people are good at "red scooter dodge chicken" after 5 minutes of it.
But playing the same thing day in, day out for a while (practice) makes you
better at it. You start noticing you're improving, your teammates may not out
you in the starting rotation, but they're going to start bonding with you
because of proximity and the shared feeling of progress.

You don't need to have the same competitive zeal as the top performers, but
you need to want to be part of the group.

I never saw anyone get ostracized in a team unless they continually refused to
be part of it.

~~~
silveroriole
So, what are you going to do with the kids who don’t want to be a part of it
and will simply never enjoy the experience of whiffing a ball every time?
(Yes, it really is possible not to improve - see the other commenter who is on
the spectrum, or anyone with dyspraxia, etc). Will you just say they deserve
what they get? We’re presumably still talking about a situation where they’re
forced to take part.

------
fzeroracer
It's the exact same reason why businesses have been pushing mindfulness at
work as well. They don't want to actually reduce stress or solve the problems
workers are facing; they'd rather try and teach them to not break as fast
while under stress.

This isn't to discount the benefits of being mindful or meditating for people.
But you should be very wary when someone's trying to sell you on it because
usually there's a greater reason for it.

~~~
nefitty
Whatever the intent, or the side effects, mindfulness is still beneficial for
individuals. Skepticism is healthy, but sometimes we need to place more weight
on first-order effects, otherwise we’re paralyzed obsessing over which and how
bad guys will benefit from the things that benefit us.

------
CraigJPerry
If it never helps in any scenarios, bin it.

If it helps in some scenarios then what else can be done in addition to this?

I see a gaping flaw in the “this doesn’t work in these cases therefore tear it
all down” logic.

Absolutely replace it if something better comes along but the answer can’t be
go back to square one because its not perfect.

------
iandanforth
The people pushing this practice and teaching it in schools are clearly not
qualified to do so. The terms "meditation" and "mindfulness" are too vague and
tied to pop-psychology / spiritual overtones to be useful.

These practices are one thing, concentration practice. That's it. It's not
about feelings or anxiety or any of the crap that seems to be peddled along
side this practice.

You sit, focus on something that's always there (the breath) and then try to
maintain that focus/awareness in the face of constant distractors.

Concentration practice strengthens concentration. You may or may not employ
that concentration, you may or may not _use it_ to be aware of distractors in
daily life, you may or may not be able to use that awareness to avoid fixating
on stressful thoughts. That's all secondary.

If you do arm curls you will strengthen your biceps which are useful in many
motions, but don't pretend that arm curls are "defense practice" or "box
lifting practice." Don't confuse the potential applications with the specific
effect of the practice.

Concentration practice builds the circuits that allow for broad inhibition of
activity throughout the brain mediated by the prefrontal cortex.

Concentration practice is hugely valuable IMO and, for me, can take what would
be a stressful unproductive day and make it productive and stable.

I fully support having concentration practice as part of a curriculum but it
sounds like the way it's being taught is harmful.

------
naasking
> students are taught that mindfulness creates space in which we can ‘choose
> our response’ as opposed to reacting or lashing out. [...] These might sound
> like reasonable claims, but they imply a dichotomy between emotions and
> reason, and the superiority of ‘rational’ responses to distress. [...]
> Historically, these ideals have served to undermine oppressed groups, as
> anger and resistance is perceived as irrational.

Sometimes anger and resistance is rational, sometimes it's not. If mindfulness
gives you the "mental space" to decide whether you are right to be angry,
that's a good thing, and it _absolutely is_ superior to purely acting
emotionally.

I'm frankly struggling to see how anyone could think that modulating your
emotions with reason is a bad idea.

~~~
silveroriole
Possibly because constantly thinking “am I right to feel this way? How should
I respond?” also describes the thinking patterns of anxious/autistic people.
‘Normal’ people generally just feel and act. They aren’t constantly modulating
themselves. Maybe that means they make some suboptimal choices, but they also
aren’t wasting time and making themselves feel bad by internally interrogating
themselves non-stop.

~~~
naasking
Anxious people can't help negative thought patterns. They happen despite their
desires. That's the complete opposite of this case, so I'm not sure that's it.

------
carapace
Placebo ritalin.

It sounds like they didn't teach the parents, teachers, and school
administrators first.

Meditation is a very valuable thing to learn but this is not the way to learn
it. To me it seems like these kids are being subjected to a fad.

To the extent that it works for them (to become more mindful) it will only
throw the intrinsic bullshit of the school system into stark relief, as the
quotes from the kids indicate.

I'm going to repeat myself, because I didn't see it mentioned in the article:
if the parents, teachers, and school admin staff didn't go through a year or
two of "mindfulness" themselves before pushing it on their kids then this is
foolish.

------
teekert
It time to let kids be kids and kids are relaxed when playing outside, with
friends, getting dirty. Adults are as well, but we force ourselves into a more
structured live. Thus we need mindfullness. But maybe we also need to play
outside, in nature, with others, getting dirty.

------
dsabanin
Forcing someone to sit and be mindful is incredibly offensive to the idea of
mindfulness. Goes to show that whatever good thing mandatory schooling
touches, it perverts or corrupts. They should just stick to sciences.

~~~
nefitty
Children need guidance. Their whims are least likely of all to lead them to
choose long-term beneficial behaviors.

~~~
dsabanin
You don’t have to tell me that, I have a 12 year old.

Yet often times as a father I see that guidance is best achieved by reasoning,
not compulsion. Compulsion breeds long term resistance and aversion, which can
damage relationships with certain topics and activities way more than whatever
short term benefit was achieved by it.

------
joyeuse6701
From the article, I wonder just who these mindfulness teachers are? I had to
spend hundreds of hours of practice and multiple teachers to unlock a few
‘treasures’ of meditation... and that was with teachers who weren’t laying a
thick amount of judge mental indoctrination.

I absolutely believe the kid’s responses to the program, and I’m afraid this
experience will turn them off for life, like so many do with a bad year of
math. Nevertheless, I think exposing kids to mindfulness is worthwhile.

------
kingkawn
They have turned what is meant to let you know yourself into something to bury
yourself deeper out of sight

------
naringas
education should not be made cost efficient by means of having one teacher
specialized in a grade per every 30+ students.

It shold be more personal with far less students per teacher; but this is too
costly and for some reason it doesn't seem like anyone is willing to pay for
this premium

------
sukilot
Weird article. It's thesis is that kids have some problems that mindfulness
doesn't solve. Like, OK, that's obvious. Those problems should be addressed.

Yet another case of pitting good things against each other by denying
appropriate funding.

------
gwbas1c
Mindfulness is primarily Zen Buddhism stripped of the appearance of religion.
As much as I encourage anyone to try either traditional Zen or Mindfulness,
pushing it on someone who doesn't want it is absurd.

~~~
praptak
Mindfulness is a tool which various schools of Buddhism emphasize to a greater
or lesser degree.

Second part I agree with. Mindfulness practice requires a pretty diligent
application of intention. I don't think it can work as another subject at
school or an ad hoc therapy.

------
_curious_
Good read, glad to hear that mindfulness is being introduced to humans at an
earlier age.

Apparently that's not enough for the author though?

Like anything, it will never be useful for 100% of everyone regardless of age
or place in time.

------
troughway
Hah, it was only a matter of time.

See this thread -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21656380](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21656380)

------
DanBC
I think mindfulness and meditation are useful for some people. It's important
to remember it doesn't work for everyone, and there's a small risk of harm for
a few people.

~~~
warent
I'm interested to know if you can cite specific evidence for that? I've heard
that some certain yoga practices (i.e. traditional yoga. Not the westernized
kind where you do stretches and talk about positive energy) can be harmful
especially to beginners (e.g. kundalini), but that's not what's being
discussed here.

Mindfulness just means being aware and non-reactive. All humans experiences
mindfulness. Any time we choose to go against our initial impulses is a moment
of expressing mindfulness. Mindfulness meditation simply strengthens and
expands on that so it holds up under greater pressure and for greater periods
of time. It's nothing mystical or psychedelic.

~~~
DanBC
Research into mindfulness emphasises the benefits, but tends to minimise the
harm. Some research fails to mention any risk at all. This makes it hard to
devise a mindfulness program that doesn't cause harm.

Mindfulness in schools is applied to the entire school population.

Mindfulness in schools is usually delivered by teachers, and not trained
therapists or psychologists.

The combination of taking the entire population, including children at higher
risk of harm, and not understanding how that harm can be caused, and using
people with minimal training to provide the programme, means that some people
get harmed.

[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/01410768166441...](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0141076816644113)

[https://www.brown.edu/research/labs/britton/sites/britton-
la...](https://www.brown.edu/research/labs/britton/sites/britton-
lab/files/images/Britton_2019_Can%20mindfulness%20be%20too%20much%20of%20a%20good%20thing.pdf)

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027273581...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272735818301272)

> Mindfulness just means being aware and non-reactive

Mary is a 10 year old girl. She is raped once a week by her step-father. You
can see how being "aware" and "non-reactive" might cause extra harm.

~~~
anon9001
Mindfulness is supposed to be a practice, and it's not necessarily an easy
thing you can do with all benefits and minimal work. It's also deeply personal
and not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing.

I think schools should treat meditation like prayer, because it's essentially
the same function, and we should just avoid it in the classroom.

Perhaps the real tragedy here is that many students will learn about
mindfulness in schools and dismiss it as useless nonsense, when there actually
may be something of value in there somewhere.

~~~
warent
Prayer and meditation are completely different. There are studies which
demonstrate a causal connection between meditation and mental health benefits,
and even structural changes in the brain. It demonstrably helps with anxiety
and depression. The same cannot be said for prayer.

[https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/04/harvard-
resea...](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/04/harvard-researchers-
study-how-mindfulness-may-change-the-brain-in-depressed-patients/)

------
bsenftner
As an "old guy" who has been meditating since the 70's, Mindfulness is merely
a popular fad, and a money grab, and is doing a terrible job is claiming to be
a cure all. It latches onto people with anxiety issues and claims to be a cure
all. Be like Public Enemy and Don't Believe The Hype.

------
conjectures
The correct teenage response being to recite Dead Kennedys lyrics.

~~~
krapp
Dead Kennedys?

OK boomer.

~~~
082349872349872
boomers know the quiet desperation of alienation isn't new to this century.

when mindfulness doesn't work, maybe the school system can try mixing in some
disco:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U13xOvDa19U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U13xOvDa19U)

On-topic: I agree that _reducing stress_ is more likely to be effective than
attempting to teach kids coping methods for stress.

------
readme
Mindfulness is pseudoscience garbage, it shouldn't be allowed in schools any
more than religion should... blowing my mind here.

~~~
TaupeRanger
Learning how to observe emotions arise and react more reasonably and
rationally is valuable. You seem to have a personal grudge or possibly just
don't know anything about the subject.

