
Psychological techniques to practice Stoicism - hoanhan101
https://hoanhan101.github.io/2020/04/26/guide-to-the-good-life
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r-bryan
I can recommend _The Happiness Hypothesis - Finding Modern Truth in Ancient
Wisdom_, by Jonathan Haidt, as relevant here.

The book was suggested to me by a CBT practitioner. It languished on my shelf
for several years because it sat adjacent to a bit of new age fluff, and I
thought the subtitle sounded like it was another bunch of lost-wisdom-of-the-
ancients drivel. I thought wrong: one should not judge a book by its cover.

The book is serious -- Haidt is a social psychologist at NYU Stern School --
yet eminently readable. It pulls in relevant aspects of the "ancient wisdom,"
evaluates them in the context of contemporary research, and shows where they
can help us today and where they are outright plain wrong.

I can't say it has changed my life yet, but it has helped settle the inchoate
bits that I have taken from the Enchiridon, Meditations, etc., into a useful
way of thinking about the world and my place in it.

Now on to William Braxton Irvine...

~~~
mettamage
Ah, Jonathan Haidt haven't heard of him in a long while. I second this. If you
like stuff like this, then you also might like:

\- Search Inside Yourself by Chade Meng-Tan

\- The Luck Factor by Richard Wiseman

I read the Happiness Hypothesis quite late in my development regarding "how to
be come happier?" I already knew a lot of the ideas in there, but it presented
its ideas a bit more clearly than whatever I read from Martin Seligman (many
books) and Suzanne Segerstrom (Optimism).

This is why I'd still recommend that book.

I also recommend to read the concept on self-learned helplessness (Seligman
researched it) if you haven't already.

One book that I actively disrecommend nowadays is Man's Search for Meaning. I
didn't look too deep into it, but there's a lot of controversy on the truth of
his claims (e.g. some claim he was in the concentration camps for a few days,
not months or years like he implicitly depicts).

Disclaimer: it's these types of books that motivated me to do an entire
undergraduate degree in psychology back 6 years ago. Only to realize most of
it is nonsense. Yet, at the same time, not all of it is nonsense. Plus it gave
me the skills to see what was and what wasn't nonsense.

------
Svip
The problems with Cynicism, Scepticism, Epicureanism and Stoicism is that they
don't really adhear to the notion of 'everything in moderation'. The logical
extremes either can lead to some genuinely useless approaches to life.

If one should never worry about things that they cannot possibly control, even
if it directly affects one's life, because we are just going to cease to exist
at some point anyway, how would one now whether or not they could alter it, if
they never began worrying? This very idea lead to several prominent Stoics to
commit suicide, because might as well hasten my eventual ceasing of being?

Perhaps if they had concerned themselves with things that on the surface
seemed outside of their reach, they might have realised that some things are
approachable, even if the solution is not obvious.

The idea that one should avoid worry about things outside one's control is not
a bad suggestion in general, it just should not be taken as an extreme. I
mean, there is probably a reason why philosophers went back to Aristotle and
Plato _after_ those other four Schools saw prominence.

Jewish, Christian and Islamic philosophers weren't trying to make their
religions compatible with Zeno's or Epicurus' teachings, but rather Plato's
and later Aristotle's.

~~~
watwut
> This very idea lead to several prominent Stoics to commit suicide, because
> might as well hasten my eventual ceasing of being?

Reading list above, another aspect is that it has absolutely no answer for
when you actually have problems. It starts with assumption that everything is
perfect and issues are purely invented out of boredom. That sort of thinking
does not help deal with actual stresses nor minimize harm, nothing like that.

Just look at dealing with people part and now imagine dealing with bully,
narcisstic or abusive partner. This typical victim response does not make
things better, but instead leads to cycle of abuse:

> One of the best way to respond to insult is with humor, especially self-
> deprecating jokes. Another way is with no response.

Likewise, I went through periods of self-denial of pleasure. I tended to
decide that I wont waste time anymore and cut fun things out of my like.
Depression and low productivity followed each time. It turns out that humans
need some pleasure in their lives.

~~~
kashyapc
> It turns out that humans need some pleasure in their lives

Yes, don't cut out pleasure. You might want to borrow a leaf from A.A. Long
(the preeminent expert on Stoicism):

 _I was sometimes asked which one of the three schools I fancied for myself.
Please don’t be shocked at my flippant reply: "I am a stoic (lower case!) in
the morning when I write, a Sceptic in the afternoon when I teach, and an
Epicurean in the evening when I have fun."_

------
sportsaw
I like Stoicism and have read many books on topic. Stoicism provides me with
mental tricks to think more positively and be more resilient. However, there
are some presuppositions that underlie the philosophy that must be take on
faith. “Lead a virtuous life,” for one. But why? What’s the difference if I do
not live virtuously? As an Atheist I suppose I do look for these answers in
part because I have not accepted the answers from religion. Perhaps Stoicism
never claimed to provide a deeper meaning to life, and if one goes in without
that expectation one will likely be less prone to disappointment.

~~~
TriNetra
I think couple of things can be observed to support living virtuously without
needing to resort to invoking any supernatural cause:

1\. Observe a fundamental law of nature: Whatever we give to the nature is
what nature grows and gives us back in many times over. We give seed to earth
it gives back us a full fledged plant. We genuinely appreciate people and
spread happiness in return we receive the same.

2\. Observe our conscience: Even though you can denounce religion and God but
at least we experience and listen to our conscience, inner voice regularly.
Not sure how much modern psychology has done research over this stuff but at
least in yogic circles it's been extensively covered as a fact that the more
you abide by virtues in your thoughts, speech and conduct, the more calmer,
peaceful and contented you will be (lesser inner conflict/clear conscience
etc.) And that's fundamental to lasting happiness

~~~
sportsaw
To me #1 sounds like an appeal to nature without basis. It sounds a little
like “The Secret”—positive actions have positive reactions—which I haven’t
seen evidence of sufficiently to make a law of.

I don’t know what “listen to our conscience, inner voice regularly” or “abide
by virtues in your thoughts“ mean.

~~~
TriNetra
Regarding the conscience, it's blabbering of the mind. while you're busy in
some activity you may not notice it, but it's there in your subconscious. To
observe it, just sit for few minutes and try to see thoughts originating in
mind. This constant chatter, which may include grudges, guilt, complaints,
fear, phobia, jealousy, envy , worries etc. are emotions that spring up when
we're too focused on ourselves in our life. The virtuous, kind actions that we
do for others help in expanding our consciousness; our prospective toward life
changes and consequently the self-obsession decreases resulting in greater
inner peace, calm and contentment.

------
NegativeLatency
> Willpower is like muscle power: the more exercise, the stronger they are;
> the more will power we have, the more self-control and courage we have.

IIRC: studies have not validated this

~~~
itisit
Yes, a dated analogy:

[https://hbr.org/2016/11/have-we-been-thinking-about-
willpowe...](https://hbr.org/2016/11/have-we-been-thinking-about-willpower-
the-wrong-way-for-30-years)

~~~
phkahler
Ego depletion would kinda be the opposite anyway.

------
troughway
>[https://hoanhan101.github.io/about](https://hoanhan101.github.io/about)

I want psychologists to write a solid book on this subject.

So far majority of posts that I have read on this subject have been by
software developers, which strikes me bizarre. You can leave your Zen and Art
of Motorcycle Maintenance out of this.

Software developers are not qualified to write about this. They are clueless
dingbats and don't know it.

How about some proper sources on the subject?

~~~
downerending
> Zen and Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

?? OP doesn't mention this at all. Also, it's a great book--read it!

~~~
notokay
When I was a teenager, I bought my first motorcycle and this book.

I was thinking that this book would contain a tech manual for repairing
motorcycles in a special "zen-way".

I was very angry when I finished reading it.

~~~
downerending
Ha ha. Sorry that happened to you.

The intro does say: _It should in no way be associated with that great body of
factual information relating to orthodox Zen Buddhist practice. It 's not very
factual on motorcycles, either._

On the other hand, I hope you enjoyed your motorcycle.

Have you looked at the book again? One surprising thing for me is that as I've
reread it over the years, it seems different each time.

------
seanwilson
> We are unhappy largely because we’re insatiable. After working hard for what
> we desire, we quickly get bored, dissatisfied, take things for granted and
> eventually chase new desire.

This makes me worry about climate change. For people to want to fly less, buy
less, eat more sustainably etc. they'll have to become more satiable or change
to only wanting things that have a low environmental impact.

------
playing_colours
Can anyone answer if it is really possible to learn, make it natural to be
more relaxed, more happy in everyday, without taking medicine?

I think I am more anxious than I really need, and can be more relaxed and
happy. For example, I study part-time and constantly feel self-inflicted
pressure to study properly, making study feel like burden than fun. Or I worry
too much about minor issues like broken pump in the garden, finding a
kindergarten for my baby, etc.

In reality, I am doing fine: I have a good income, great wife and son, no
major health issues, I already have a degree and my studies of maths are more
for self-growth with room for failure.

I understand it logically that I do not want to treat my studies as obligation
and can enjoy the process, that I want to be more relaxed and resilient to
small problems. But plain understanding does not turn me into a more relaxed
personality, as it does not pierce deep enough into the brain. Is there a way
to re-wire our brains for better attitude and happiness?

~~~
e1ghtSpace
I hear meditation helps. Whats helped me is acting as if The Law of Attraction
is real.

------
montroser
That is a great quick read. All of those points land nicely, with one
exception from my perspective:

> We must learn to welcome whatever comes to us and trust that it happens is
> for the best.

I think maybe that was reworked and an extra word for left in, or another got
left behind in error...

But aside from that, the idea that even bad things were meant to happen for a
reason, that somehow later we will come to understand -- that seems to imply a
faith in some God or "universe" watching out for us, which seems counter to
the general tenets of Stoicism.

We can choose to rationalize bad things happening in a way that tries to find
opportunities for growth and learning. But that is different than trusting
that it is all "for the best."

~~~
GuiA
A suggested rephrasing:

"We must learn to welcome whatever comes to us and trust that we will be able
to make the most of it."

~~~
lhuser123
Thanks, that sounds more reasonable to me.

------
a-saleh
Just beware you actually practice stoicism, acceptance and the good stuff and
not just dissociation ;-)

------
msms01
A few of my fav:

    
    
      A guide to the Good Life by William Irvine
    
      The Daily Stoic by Ryan Holiday
    
      The Art of Living by Epictetus
    
      Meditation by Marcus Aurelius
    

Although not directly related to Stoicism, there are Stoic lessons in them:

    
    
      Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl
    
      The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle
    
      The Fifth Agreement by don Miguel Ruiz
    
      Stumbling on Happiness by Daniel Gilbert

------
kashyapc
For those who wish to truly deep-dive, I strongly suggest to skip the "meta
books" on Stoicism, and go straight to the original works. There's the Big
Three—Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius. Be prepared to invest _at least_
ten months (the longer, the better) of _active_ study to get a decent
grounding.

From my experience of reading multiple translations of the Big Three, for
someone new to Stoicism, I'd suggest _not_ to start with the popular
recommendation of Marcus Aurelius.

Start with Seneca's Letters, then Epictetus (an ex-slave, and a profound
influence on Marcus Aurelius), and only _then_ Marcus Aurelius, the Roman
Emperor. (To quote the foremost Stoic scholar, A.A. Long: "[...] That an ex-
slave actually shaped a Roman Emperor's deepest thoughts is one of the most
remarkable testimonies to the power and applicability of Epictetus' words.")

The quality of the English translation matters a _lot_. Here are my
recommendations:

• Seneca: _Letters on Ethics_ — translation by Margaret Graver and A. A. Long.
This is the most recent translation, reads extremely well, outstanding notes,
and wonderfully typeset. It's translated by the current foremost experts;
can't get better than this. I've been reading this for four months. (If this
is a tad pricey for you, I've also heard good things about _Selected Letters_
; translated by Elaine Fantham.)

• Epictetus: _Encheiridion, and Selections from Discourses_ , by A.A. Long.
This is a short book; the value addition here is the great introduction, and
the outstanding glossary. (NB: there is no escaping full Discourses of
Epictetus—refer below.)

• Epictetus: _Discourses, Fragments and Handbook_ — translation by Robin Hard,
intro by Christopher Gill; Oxford University Press. Spend a good four months
immersing yourself in it. Epictetus is full of heavy irony, dark humor,
histrionic wit, and sarcasm. Absolutely my favourite.

• Epictetus: _A Stoic and Socratic Guide_ , by A.A. Long. _Important Note_ :
To get maximum value out of this, you must have already read _at least_ one
translation of Epictetus' full Discourses! This book orients the reader to
Epictetus with an extremely valuable context: how not to misinterpret his
unqualified faith in "divine providence" (which can grate on our "modern
ears"); the influence of Plato and the "Socratic Elenchus" (colloquially known
as "Socratic Method"); deep insights into Epictetus' own inimitable style; and
a rich bibliography.

• Marcus Aurelius: _Meditations_. There are at least six translations. I'd
suggest to start with the gentler translation by Gregory Hays. If you like it,
then you can research other translations. (A.S.L Farquharson spent a lifetime
on his translation of the _Meditations_ ; it also has commentary. I sometimes
consult this edition.)

• _The Inner Citadel: The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius_ , by Pierre Hadot.
This needs to be read only after you've read _at least_ one translation of
Marcus Aurelius This is a fantastic dissection of Aurelius' work—Hadot studied
him for 25 years. Besides fresh translations of the Meditations, it also
contains unparalleled summary of Epictetus, and many quotes of Seneca.

    
    
                 - - -
    

I'll end with one of my favourite Epictetus quotes:

 _" For sheep, too, don't vomit up their fodder to show the shepherds how much
they've eaten, but digest their food inside them, and produce wool and milk on
the outside. And so you likewise shouldn't show off your philosophical
principles to ordinary people, but rather show them in the actions that result
from those principles when they've been properly digested."_

~~~
tra3
Thank you for the list. What made you decide to go on this journey? How have
this process changed you?

~~~
kashyapc
I first heard of Marcus Aurelius more than five years ago when I was reading a
book called _" Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience"_, by Mihaly
Csikszentmihalyi (pronounced as _Me-High Chick-Sent-Me-High_ )—itself a book I
highly recommend; he spent his entire career devoted to this topic. That made
me wanted explore Stoicism to better understand what they said about human
well-being and what the Greeks called _" Eudaimonia"_ (flourishing). Although,
I only began the deep-dive some two years ago.

How has it changed me? In many positive and enabling ways. It's an ongoing
process, but it certainly made me more resilient, tranquil; ability to give
better structure to my attention when in solitude; better ways to deal with
setbacks; and to learn to "make correct use of mental impressions" (Epictetus'
favorite way of describing the Stoic project), among others.

~~~
tirant
Interesting. I also came across Meditations from M.A. when reading Flow by
M.C. I downloaded a license-free ebook of Meditations, but found the
translation to be excessively complicated and ended up abandoning it. I really
appreciate your recommendations now, and will fore sure give them a try again.

~~~
kashyapc
Glad to be useful. A poor translation is definitely a deal-breaker. It is
absolutely worth investing in good English translations (taking time to do
some research helps). Most of the good translations have a robust introduction
that situates the topic in context with helpful notes, references, and
bibliography.

Good luck!

PS: I maintain that good old physical copies are superior to e-books for these
kinds of studies. Especially when you need to frequently refer to the notes—it
makes flipping back-n-forth far more pleasant. Also spatial aspect of a paper-
based book, better retention, and other well-known benefits.

------
watwut
The advice on how to deal with people completely ignores existence of abusers,
bullies and narcissists.

If applied to abusive or potentially abusive relationship, it would go right
into the abusive cycle. It is opposite of what you need to do to set
boundaries and opposite of what you need to do to recognize first issues as
they appear.

------
watwut
Reading it, I was like "nah, the reasons for my unhappiness were completely
different" but then came this:

> Most of us are already living the dream, having a wonderful partner, a dream
> job, a good car though we take things for granted other than delighting in
> them

I mean, yeah, this is psychological technique only for people who have it all.

------
exit
_> A person’s virtue depends on their excellence as a human being, how well
one performs the function for which humans were designed._

humans weren't designed, they were selected for through a happenstantial
process. random mutation is critical to this process, and so any one of us can
be deeply at odds with whatever the majority are geared towards.

~~~
clairity
> “humans weren't designed, they were selected for...”

unless i’m mistaking your intent, “evolved” might be the better phrasing if
you’re objecting to the agency implied by “designed”, as “selected for” also
implies similar (super-)agency.

~~~
exit
you're right that "selected for" also implies agency. if i wrote my comment a
second time i'd replace that with "came about through".

my main intention though is to point out that being the product of an
evolutionary process we can't find definitive purpose in our origins.

------
tudorw
Thanks for that, it's a quick and rewarding read.

------
lhuser123
Can someone recommend an audio book on this ?

