
Saudi Arabia runs online database of women to track them, stop them running away - myinnerbanjo
https://www.businessinsider.com/absher-saudi-website-men-control-women-stop-escape-2019-1
======
yakshaving_jgt
An anecdote.

I know a guy from a small country in that region that begins with Q and sounds
like a common word for mucous membrane inflammation. His late father was an
imam. He wears the traditional garb when he is home. He is a fairly standard
[person from that country].

I asked him why he feels women shouldn't have equal rights to men.

The beginning of his response: "Well, it is medically proven that women are
natural carriers of disease…"

That's the culture there.

EDIT: Removed the country name because I'm flying their airline tomorrow.

~~~
AdmiralAsshat
I recall seeing a video years ago (unable to locate it at the moment) with an
imam explaining how science grounds the ruling that a woman's testimony is
only worth half of a man's. He presented brain scans of a male brain and a
female brain, explaining that men's brains light up in different areas when
they speak versus when they recall memory. Women, on the other hand, use the
same brain regions for speaking and for recollection. Thus, a woman's memory
cannot be reliable, because when she speaks (which women do incessantly, so
say the stereotypes), the memory is wiped out.

It is very, very difficult to combat pseudoscience draped with religious
authority.

~~~
krapp
>It is very, very difficult to combat pseudoscience draped with religious
authority.

Luckily, that never happens in the Western world.

~~~
yakshaving_jgt
Of course it does (and the sarcasm isn't lost on me), but nowhere near to the
same extent.

At least not these days anyway.

~~~
xfitm3
Joel Olstein. It may be different but you can argue it’s just as extreme.

~~~
yakshaving_jgt
No, I couldn't.

Nobody is being systematically murdered at the command of even America's
nuttiest televangelists.

~~~
magduf
I'd also like to point out that America's nutty televangelists are a uniquely
American problem. The rest of the "western world" is not remotely as religious
as America.

------
quakeguy
They should ask themselves why the women want to run away, but i know, i'm
just being overly gnarly again.

"Under her father's guardianship, she watched her teen brother spend a $1,600
monthly allowance as he pleased, while she begged for money to buy the most
basic products. "I couldn't even buy anything for my period," she said. "It
was my brother who paid for it, all the time, and he was younger than me.""

How awful that must be, for her to know that societies in foreign countries
dont treat her like that..

~~~
close04
> They should ask themselves why the women want to run away

I'm sure they do and the answer is certainly always something that can be
blamed on the woman.

------
phoe-krk
This is the same country that led a 2015 United Nations human rights panel.

[0]
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/09/28/why-o...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/09/28/why-
one-of-the-worlds-worst-human-rights-offenders-is-leading-a-un-human-rights-
panel)

~~~
gammateam
Their criticism of Canada was correct, people just laughed at the person
saying it.

Children's history books in the future won't include what people thought of
the messenger at the time. Just that an issue came to light and a problem was
fixed. So the irony doesn't really have much to say about the capacity to
operate under the panel's guidelines.

~~~
Waterluvian
I don't see anything about that issue in the article. Are you just wandering
off or am I missing the segment?

~~~
gammateam
It wasn't mentioned in the article, it is something they did while keeping a
representative on that panel.

This thread:

"hey my country does horrible things (that I'm totally exempt from in the
upper echelon) but I'm not allowed to research what other countries do on the
panel formed specifically to do that"

------
eecc
Blood oil, another reason to get off our hydrocarbon addiction. Without the
constant influx of cash, having lost all their mighty power, it will be
child’s play to neutralize these sickos and eradicate their morbid culture.
(Which, just to be 100% clear, is the specific, very narrowly defined pastoral
clan culture of the region.)

~~~
tossaccount123
US actually produces the most oil of any country now. I'd like to see someone
do the math and see if it would be cheaper to leave the middle east and save
money on wars and just subsidize our own oil production to make up the
difference for any price increase consumers might see. Of course that won't
happen because war is a industry now

What's also amazing to me is seeing this culture defended by the left, when if
most muslims were given power in Europe they would strip away most rights for
women and homosexuals that the left also fought for

~~~
mrguyorama
>What's also amazing to me is seeing this culture defended by the left

You're going to need a citation for that. Projecting such a large claim
against such a large heterogeneous blob of people with absolutely zero
evidence to back it up should not be acceptable on HN

~~~
fzeroracer
It's amusing and somewhat annoying to see people attempt to categorize all
Muslims as wanting to destroy the rights of women in the US while the rights
of women in the US are under very real siege by Christian fundamentalists
tearing apart bits and pieces for things like reproductive rights.

The left isn't afraid of Muslims in the US because not only are they usually
more progressive than their fundamentalist counterparts but also because
they're a minority population with very little political power.

It's a rather disengenous argument. I see very little fear or animosity
pointed towards the groups that are actively in power and trying to tear
things down versus the scapegoat being blamed for the actions of another
country.

------
hugh4life
There have been a few high profile cases of women leaving and trying to get
asylum lately, but there's a weird case of two Saudi sisters who were found
dead after they had tried to claim asylum.

[https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/saudi-sisters-whose-
bod...](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/saudi-sisters-whose-bodies-were-
found-bound-together-near-hudson-n961541)

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-york-crime-sisters-
sa...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-york-crime-sisters-saudi/father-
of-saudi-sisters-found-dead-in-new-york-rejects-suicide-finding-idUSKCN1PO23E)

"""" Tala Farea, 16, and Rotana Farea, 23, who had previously been living in
Virginia, were found along the rocky Manhattan shore of the Hudson River with
duct tape around their waist and ankles. A New York Police Department official
has said they likely entered the water alive and were said to have preferred
suicide over returning to Saudi Arabia.

Their mother told detectives the day before the bodies were discovered that
the Saudi Embassy in Washington had ordered the family to leave the United
States because the daughters had applied for political asylum """"

------
alex_h
Maybe Apple should revoke the certificate for the iOS app shown in the
article.

~~~
stickfigure
This is actually a really good idea!

A headline like "Apple facilitates subjugation of women in Saudi Arabia" might
have a chance of making that happen. If Cisco helped build the Great Firewall,
they'd be excoriated here on HN. This seems similar.

~~~
g45y45
If?? Cisco did contribute technology to Golden Shield project!
[http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2015/03/china%E2%80%99s-go...](http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2015/03/china%E2%80%99s-golden-
shield-cisco-systems-complicit)

------
simonh
I cannot understand how the feminist movement and women’s rights and welfare
organisations aren’t in all out war with Saudi Arabia.

The only theory I can come up with is that most feminists believe in freedom
of religion as well as women’s freedom and the conflict between the two
induces a sort of moral paralysis.

~~~
krapp
I don't know what "all out war" is supposed to look like, but how do you know
they aren't?

Have you done research into what feminists believe, or if there is any
feminist activism in that direction?

Because I'm certain that a lot of them are vehemently opposed to the way women
are treated in Saudi Arabia, including feminists _in_ Saudi Arabia.

~~~
simonh
If there are any initiatives vex in that direction, all I can say is their
publicity activities are unimpressive to say the least. Have you heard of any?
I mean sure, go and find some now we’re talking about it, but before?

Actually even if you can find some by going and looking, I am interested.

~~~
tdb7893
There are some protests in Australia a few weeks ago to let a Saudi woman in
[http://time.com/5498790/australia-topless-protest-saudi-
runa...](http://time.com/5498790/australia-topless-protest-saudi-runaway/)

There's the more minor controversy of people criticising Mariah Carey for
having a concert there [https://spy.nzherald.co.nz/celebrity/mariah-carey-
slammed-fo...](https://spy.nzherald.co.nz/celebrity/mariah-carey-slammed-for-
saudi-arabia-performance/)

But the bulk of the work for Saudi Arabia is being done by Saudi activists
(which is unsurprising)
[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/10/07/worl...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/10/07/world/middleeast/saudi-
arabia-women-driving-ban.amp.html)

I think the reason there aren't more is that protests are pretty much always
about a local issue (which is true of all protests, it's why HN cares a lot
about privacy in the US and EU but doesn't agitate as much about it in places
like the Middle East or China). I think you're confusing lack of large scale
protests and thinking it's okay, to use HN userbase as an example I know
people who have protested various US privacy laws who haven't been to a
protest about the Great Firewall. That clearly doesn't mean they don't think
it's a human rights issue.

------
tdb7893
Control over finances, movement, and who someone can talk to are textbook
signs of abuse. It's crazy to see it engrained even at a governmental level.

~~~
Vaari
It’s probably no coincidence that domestic abuse is so rampant there as well,
not that living as someone else’s property isn’t already abusive.

------
amrx431
The West particularly the US, if it wants to restore its image as a proponent
of freedom and democracy and counter the growing geopolitical influence of
China at global stage, will have to reconsider its relationship with KSA.
There is no way in which West can acclaim its moral policing stature in the
global arena if KSA is allowed to continue barbaric customs and practices as
rules of law. West has made severe human rights abuse allegations against
China. Meanwhile KSA literally chops off heads in public places with a fucking
sword, stones women to death in public places for adultery, treats women as
second class citizens by compelling them to always be in custody of a male and
many other barbaric laws and yet the entire West calls KSA its ally. This kind
of double standards makes people question the West's sincerity when dealing
with human rights abuse. It makes people think that human rights is just a
propaganda tool that the West props up when-ever it wants a regime change and
the West doesn't really care about human rights. West already lost its war of
ideas in Syria where governments from Brussels to Washington couldn't muster
up public support to oust a ruler who was gassing children. People just asked
"well if you are so for human rights, then why dont you take action against
KSA?." The establishment couldn't muster up a convincing answer to this
question and couldn't rally its electorate for a war.

Also KSA's cozy relationship with West and how KSA makes US fight its war
signals to other countries that as long as you have pockets big enough to buy
politicians, lobbyists, bankers etc, US will be your ally even if pedophilia
is legal and practiced in the country. Sickening and damn shame.

------
siffland
I am going to go home tonight and tell my wife she is forbidden from leaving
the house all weekend. I will talk to everyone in a week after i recover from
the injuries i am bound to sustain from such a comment.

Joking aside, it is sad, in the US we still have so many sex inequality
issues, it is so difficult to fathom countries THIS far behind us in that
regard.

------
mschuster91
Saudi-Arabia, together with slave-holding Qatar, the Arab Emirates and all the
other countries that feed off Western oil money but completely ignore any
basic human rights standards, should be sanctioned into oblivion.

If that fails, why is literally the entire tech world doing business with
them? Why are their internet uplinks still active, why do Western companies
trade with them _and why has no one in the SV a major problem with Saudi
investment funds_?

We as techies are as complicit in enabling these abusers as our governments
are.

~~~
lotsofpulp
The citizens of the US and UK have voted time and time again for politicians
that support these regimes, as long as they keep buying weapons and help
support all the jobs at Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics and now the tech
companies.

~~~
mschuster91
Yeah, same for us Germans. Leopard tanks and G3/G36 rifles are just too
profitable to not export into a civil war region (which is actually forbidden
by German law)...

------
trhway
from many stories it sounds like fathers, brothers, etc. not just submit to
the will and traditions of the society - it seems that they really feel about
their female relatives as something like a property and are really cruel
toward them. I kind of wonder how a natural biological strong feeling of
kinship toward your family members is getting that override to such an extent
here.

~~~
pjc50
The history of patriarchy shows that kinship rarely trumps the desire for
dominance and control.

~~~
LifeLiverTransp
I guess they are afraid to end up with a dozen catladies instead of
grandchildren. For a traditional society, something like the west must be
looking like a particular disgusting Nurgle cult.

------
close04
> and Interpol had already come calling to her flatmate

Is Interpol involved here because it's a possible international missing
persons case? Or was it already a "criminal" investigation based on a warrant
issued by Saudi Arabia?

~~~
morpheuskafka
This is the part that I was really shocked to see. International law clearly
protects the right to leave one's country freely and relocate to any country
why one may be lawfully present, as well as the right to receive asylum from
oppressive governments.

~~~
ceejayoz
Sure, but they're not going to say she's wanted for leaving the country.
They'll flag her as a missing person, or for the theft described in the story:

> Creeping barefoot out of the bedroom, al-Mohaimeed gathered her family's
> credit cards, keys, passports, and, crucially, their phones. This would slow
> them down, she thought, when they tried to follow her.

------
goombastic
All saudi women should get out of the country and solve the problem. No women,
no new generation, and end of said practice.

~~~
elliekelly
All the slaves in Qatar should just do the same. That would solve the slavery
problem. And while we're at it, sex trafficking victims should just stop being
trafficked. That would solve the human trafficking problem.

Or maybe people could just stop treating other people as property. Interesting
that wasn't your suggested solution. Perhaps because it's not that easy?

Your comment (though said in jest - I hope) is dismissive of the very real and
very dangerous consequences Saudi women face in trying to exercise their most
basic of human rights. You're putting the responsibility of "escaping" on the
victims. Don't you think they've thought of that? Many have risked everything
to do just that.

What does your comment add to the conversation? Nothing of value.

------
verroq
Saudi Arabia is one of the best arguments against moral relativism.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
I wonder if somewhere out there in space some weird looking alien just typed
"Earth is one of the best arguments against moral relativism".

~~~
projektir
I sure hope so.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
Me too.

Though now I'm wondering if such a civilization existed if it wouldn't be part
of their moral imperative to educate other cultures about their morality, or
if being sufficiently moral assumes that other entities need the ability to
explore morality on their own.

------
morpheuskafka
Sounds like a good opportunity for some hacktivism to me. If you wanted to
reduce chances of detection you could leave the web portal functional but
attack the SMS infrastructure, causing certain texts to appear to have been
rejected by carrier or similar. Or even distribute some malicious Android apps
to the Arabic market requesting SMS permissions and silently intercepting
these texts.

------
AngeloAnolin
With software systems that are being strategically used for abuse in guise of
its declared purpose, I wonder if there are underground hacker groups or
individuals who are using their skills and resources to help quell such
abuses.

------
stefan_
If you want to know what all those airplane passenger data sharing agreements
are.

------
smolsky
Riiight. There must be a Borat (of KZ) joke here somewhere...

~~~
godDLL
Do you know why I tolerate that extremely distasteful shit? The "Borat" meme?

That's because someone thought it was a small thing, then made fun of it, then
persisted. I actually think that no other type of language can reach the
people that are in that mode, and pull them in to what I'd call "get your head
out your ass mode"

