
Pop_OS 19.10 - surfsvammel
https://system76.com/pop
======
tony
Wanted to chime in and say Pop!_OS is the leader when it comes to HiDPI on
Linux I believe.

Especially if you have 4K monitors or a 3K/4K mix where the monitors need a
different DPI set.

PopOS uses a system to manage the scaling very well.
[https://support.system76.com/articles/hidpi-multi-
monitor/](https://support.system76.com/articles/hidpi-multi-monitor/)

The closest comparison I've seen elsewhere is fractional scaling in Gnome
3.32+:
[https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/FracionalScaling](https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/FracionalScaling)

If you have a configuration / workflow for HiDPI on Linux, it'd be nice to see
if there were other options / any other things out there.

~~~
minxomat
Thanks for that info. If the OS is pleasent otherwise, I'll switch immediately
from elementary OS. Their position on fractional scaling is:

\- it's bad because pixel perfectness!

\- you're wrong for wanting it

\- we don't care that MacOS does it well

So annoying.

~~~
jancsika
> \- we don't care that MacOS does it well

At least in 2017 they claimed MacOS _didn 't_ do it well[1].

Do you have a link to something more recent where they changed their position?

1: [https://medium.com/elementaryos/top-3-misconceptions-
about-h...](https://medium.com/elementaryos/top-3-misconceptions-about-
hidpi-f5ef493d7bf8)

~~~
minxomat
Oh yes, that's my opinion. They are biased because they see only the defects,
I'm biased because it works well enough for me (and many people I have spoken
to about this who run MacOS) on MacOS.

Add to that the implicit assumption that it's good enough which is encoded in
Apple's decision to include it at all.

Ymmv

------
zwaps
I have been using PopOS on my secondary, private laptop for two years. I
installed it on a whim, and it just works for me. Nothing spectacular, just
polished. Always been happy with it.

Perhaps that's the biggest compliment for an OS?

------
jasoneckert
I'll chime in here to show my support for Pop!_OS. Simply put, I like it so
much, that it's been the host OS on my 2013 Mac Pro tube since early this
year:
[https://triosdevelopers.com/jason.eckert/blog/Entries/2019/3...](https://triosdevelopers.com/jason.eckert/blog/Entries/2019/3/4_Pop!_OS__The_first_real_Linux_desktop.html)

~~~
robbya
Great picture post. I've been curious about Pop for a while and I've had
similar frustrations to what you mention. I also appreciate the mention that
it works better outside a VM, I'll skip that.

------
marmaduke
I recently installed CentOS 7.7 onto a Dell Latitude 5290 (Dell's equivalent
of the ThinkPad x280) and found everything (audio, suspend wake, wifi, caméra,
nvme) just works, and it gets twice the battery life as on Windows 10.

I'm happy to see really nice marketing on Linux as a desktop OS but it seems
over the top these days.

~~~
passthejoe
Many things happen in the Linux kernel. It doesn't matter which distro you use
as long as the kernel supports your hardware. Lots of distros have taken
credit for things that happen outside of what they do.

~~~
bardworx
Can you expand on your answer, please. I haven’t been following Linux kernel
updates and wondering if you’re implying that they did a better job at
supporting hardware or was there an organized push to support more hardware?

Also, just out of curiosity, did additional hardware support take away from
other areas of development or was this just natural since more Linux kernel
devs just use different hardware and saw direct benefit?

~~~
passthejoe
A distribution like Ubuntu, Debian, Pop!_OS, Fedora, etc., is a collection of
programs from many, many other projects and places. Almost every distribution
configures things a slightly different way, but almost any other distribution
can be configured that same way.

Distros include a unique set of packages, but after installation you can
remove what you don't want and add what you do.

The single biggest factor in terms of sheer compatibility with your hardware
is the Linux kernel, and every distribution has one. Some are older than
others. Some projects remove things from the kernel and recompile. Others add
things.

But by and large, the Linux kernel is the same from distro to distro. Some
ship newer kernels, to be sure, and some ship older ones. The Linux kernel
developers maintain a few different kernels at the same time, some older with
security patches, some newer with the latest features and drivers.

Fedora ships new kernels all the time. If you have new hardware and have parts
that are not working so great, new kernels will often solve your problems.
It's not the distributions doing this, it's the kernel team.

If you have old, stable hardware that works great with an old kernel, you
might want to run something like Debian or CentOS -- if you like that sort of
thing.

Fedora or Arch are both great ways to get new hardware working its best, but
that's because the Linux kernel developers are doing this work at the kernel
level, and these distributions pick up new kernels very soon after they are
released.

If distro developers contribute back to the Linux kernel -- and many do, from
Ubuntu and Fedora for sure, but for others, too -- everybody benefits from
those improvements when a new kernel is released for the use of all
distributions that want to package it.

~~~
jammygit
So why is it so many programs support/recommend Ubuntu rather than generic
Linux? Is it primarily the testing environment that the devs use and the
packaging formats the different distros use? I ask because I’m deciding
between fedora and some Ubuntu flavour for my next OS and have used Ubuntu for
the last 2 years

~~~
passthejoe
It all comes down to preference, including what works for your hardware and
your use case(s).

Before GNOME 3, Ubuntu, Debian and Fedora all used GNOME 2, and they were more
alike than different. I'd say the same is true today with these three and
GNOME 3, though Ubuntu skins it somewhat differently.

They really are more alike than you'd think.

------
andrepd
_Imagine Development as a First-Class Citizen

The cloud and devices of the future are running Linux. Accelerate your
productivity by developing on the same platform that you deploy to. Your tools
and programming languages are supported natively and only a command away._

??? I scrolled all the way down and I'm still not sure what the heck is this
supposed to be. The selling points are window snapping, workspaces, and... a
script to install tensorflow? It's all so bizarre.

 _We’re focusing on you in a different way than anyone else. Our approach
centers on user testing and careful analysis with the singular goal of
delivering the most productive and gorgeous platform for developing your next
creation. It’s not just about making the easiest tool, it’s about making the
best tool. And we’re just getting started._

Nope, still not making sense.

 _Discover what’s possible at the cross-roads of IOT and AI._

Oh, please just stop.

~~~
zelly
Took me a while to figure out it was a fork of Ubuntu. Does System76 maintain
its own aptitude repos? What custom software does it come with (if any)? What
architectures does it support? What is the default desktop environment?
There's no detail anywhere. No screenshots either.

------
m463
I wasn't sure what Pop!_OS was but found this page:

[https://pop.system76.com/docs/difference-between-pop-
ubuntu/](https://pop.system76.com/docs/difference-between-pop-ubuntu/)

------
currymj
use it every day, very pleasant distribution for a scientific workstation,
especially the great nvidia driver support.

the overall design seems to be for a knowledgeable computer user, but one who
has no interest in configuring things.

~~~
jakebol
Made the jump from OSX and for scientific users who don't to endlessly chase a
working laptop setup PopOS and it's nvidia driver support (on a thinkpad) has
been fantastic, highly recommend as well.

------
phren0logy
I have found this to be a great option for local deep learning. Painless
install of nVidia drivers, CUDA, tensorflow, etc. Also works well for playing
games through Steam.

------
johnday
No real indictment on the quality of the OS nor on the effort that people have
put into the project, but why, oh why, did they pick a name which has two
different special characters in it?

It looks like they're trying hard to push this OS but they seem to have hurt
their chances of SEO by creating a name which is both unpronouncable (pop
exclamation mark underscore OS) and unsearchable.

~~~
colonwqbang
While I agree the name is silly, it seems to work in Google. Both "pop os" and
"pop!_os" returned their page as the first result for me.

~~~
dajohnson89
as a programmer, I really wish they're was a google setting that respected
special characters. in general the algorithm seems to throw them all out
discriminately. perhaps they're not indexed at all, for performance reasons?

------
norswap
Is it me or is it so weird that this "OS" (Linux distro) made by a laptop
seller (admittedly, with a nerd clientele in mind) has for top selling point
bundling a tool to manage your tensorflow installation?

Also mentions of blockchain and IoT make this page look like a buzzword bingo.

~~~
andrepd
Truly is a buzzword bingo. This paragraph:

 _Imagine Development as a First-Class Citizen

The cloud and devices of the future are running Linux. Accelerate your
productivity by developing on the same platform that you deploy to. Your tools
and programming languages are supported natively and only a command away._

???

I scrolled all the way down and I'm still not sure what the heck is this
supposed to be. The selling points are window snapping, workspaces, and... a
script to install tensorflow? It's all so bizarre.

------
kstenerud
TBH, I took one look at the marketroid speak on the landing page and said
"Hell no."

But then I skimmed the HN discussion and found the following links:

[https://triosdevelopers.com/jason.eckert/blog/Entries/2019/3...](https://triosdevelopers.com/jason.eckert/blog/Entries/2019/3/4_Pop!_OS__The_first_real_Linux_desktop.html)

[https://pop.system76.com/docs/difference-between-pop-
ubuntu/](https://pop.system76.com/docs/difference-between-pop-ubuntu/)

Now I'm intrigued, and will try installing it on my laptop today.

~~~
johnisgood
> The feedback from power users has been amazing - I’ll agree with the popular
> slogan for Pop!_OS as “the best OS for developers” wholeheartedly. I can
> install it and start working. No need to install Nvidia drivers, worry about
> LUKS disk encryption or customizing my desktop at all. It’s perfect, and I
> am faster than on Pop!_OS for general productivity than on Windows (and a
> LOT faster than on macOS).

Oh come on. I will never understand this. For your desktop, surely you can
afford to spend an hour configuring your system that should work for over a
decade. I lost it at installing NVIDIA drivers, is it that difficult or time-
consuming or what the heck? :D As far as full disk encryption goes, I would
rather do it manually using Arch's wiki than trust someone else with it,
especially because there are MANY ways to do it, and they probably had no
plausible deniability in mind, which is a nope for anyone who is serious about
it. There are lots of different layouts, parameters, and so on. But OK, for
people who cannot install NVIDIA drivers or are not willing to spend a minute
doing that, then yeah, sure, why not...

~~~
kstenerud
Why would I spend an hour configuring a machine when I don't have to? I don't
spend an hour fiddling with a car before it's usable for me. Why should a
computer be different?

Why would I want plausible deniability with my encryption? I'm a developer,
not a cia agent. I need to keep my company's code safe from random strangers,
not governments.

~~~
johnisgood
How about this phrase: "one size does not fit all"? Do you use the default
configurations for all of your software as well? If not, why not, and how does
the reasoning not apply to the rest of the computer?

~~~
kstenerud
I do what most people do: Look for something that covers as many of my use
cases as possible. The less customization I have to do, the better.

What I'm hoping is that this OS lives up to its promise to cater to the 80%
first, which will likely mean that I need to do little-to-no customization,
which means less things to maintain myself, which means more time to do
actually valuable things. That's what I used to like about MacOS in the days
of Mountain Lion.

------
stanislavb
Is there someone here who migrated from Mac OS to Pop!_OS? If yes, what was
your experience and what did you miss?

~~~
mushufasa
I'm actually currently using both at the same time on different laptops.

The biggest thing I miss -- font rendering. Font rendering is all messed up in
linux. It's painful to read pdfs, emails, browse the web. I've tried all sorts
of configuration options and it's still broken. Really, it grates me. Things
just look off.

On Pop! (old thinkpad), typing gives me joy, and I live in the terminal / use
vimium browser bindings / snap windows around. I prefer this machine for
editing code / hacking.

On Mac, swiping around is frictionless. I use hot corners, gestures, and have
trackpad sensitivity at the highest. No need for vim outside of editing code,
and I default to GUI workflows. The screen is much better, and prefer watching
videos.

My VPN setup and all that jazz is just as easy on either machine.

~~~
cooperadymas
Yep. Pop OS fixed the graphics driver mess on Linux and seemingly spurred
Ubuntu to finally take action.

I'm hoping they tackle font rendering next.

------
anewguy9000
just popping in to say thank you to the dev team if youre seeing this. pop os
is slick. i ditched win10 for it and it gives me a hope for the linux desktop
i havent felt since 1999!

~~~
mackrevinack
I just switched to pop from Windows 2 weeks ago. i had been trying out various
distros on another laptop over the last few years but I would only mess around
for a few days and then go back to windows. switching over completely has
worked out a lot better because it is forcing me to learn a lot faster.

having Windows running in a vm is a lot better for my mental health as well. I
don't have to worry about it taking control over my computer at random hours
to do some updates

------
darren0
I have almost a violent reaction to gnome application UX. I find it terrible.
It is so hard to figure out how to do anything.

~~~
Barrin92
I felt the same way but I love it these days, I just used it wrong for a long
time. It's very opinionated and you kind of have to adjust to the workflow. It
makes more sense to treat it more like a tiling window manager than a
traditional UI and use the keyboard extensively.

I've reconfigured switching between workspaces to simpler hotkeys and together
with the overview you can keep a lot of stuff open and navigate without things
feeling cluttered.

------
c3534l
I tried it last release. I don't see how it's any different than Ubuntu other
than the company also makes laptops. I must be missing something.

~~~
mackrevinack
I havnt used ubuntu in years so I'm not sure how they compare, but i think pop
has different keyboard shortcuts, has nvidia drivers included, it uses a
different app store gui, has a better/easier install walk-through with an
option for full disk encryption.

its basically just a lot if small things that make it easier to use right out
of the box. that's what it seems like to me anyway

------
tormeh
Recently tried installing Ubuntu 19.04. The ISO thumb drive didn't work. Don't
remember the details, but I tried nomodeset and some other usual(!) tricks.
After 30 minutes I decided to just give Pop a whirl even though it's not as
popular as Ubuntu. Worked with no fuss. That's the best argument I can think
of. It's Pop OS for me from here on.

~~~
marsrover
I’ve never had to try “usual” tricks to get Ubuntu installed, and I’ve
installed it many times in the last 12 years. In fact, I’ve been installing
Linux for around 18 years total and the instal has always been pretty smooth
from what I can remember.

I understand the gripes of people that say Linux doesn’t work out of the box
and requires constant tweaking, but if you’re having usual problems even
getting it installed, I’m curious what you’re doing during the install.

~~~
tormeh
No no, I'm not doing anything weird during the install, I'm having issues
_getting to the install_. Self-built desktop with (in this case) AMD CPU and
GPU, but nothing special.

~~~
marsrover
Have you tried using your onboard video card during install and installing AMD
drivers after you get in?

I’ve never actually used AMD components so maybe they make it more difficult
to get the drivers or something.

------
0xdeadb00f
What is it with Desktop oriented Linux and the disgusting default brown/grey
UI? Dear Ubuntu, you're not doing anyone a favour by having such a gross color
as the default. I can guarantee a lot of Mac + Windows users looking to switch
see that gross color and discard Linux as a whole because of it. Remember,
when regular users ask what Linux to pick, or google it, the first one to show
up is usually Ubuntu. (These aren't technical people I'm talking about, they
probably don't know or don't care that you can change the colors).

How about a clean white, like OSX? or sleek, neat Black?

~~~
mackrevinack
zorin has a whiter than white ui and its the distro i always recommend zorin
for windows users instead of ubuntu because it's laid out similar to windows.

the first time I tried out ubuntu i kept clicking the right side of the window
for the X and minimise buttons and lasted maybe half and hour then switched to
mint

~~~
asymptotically2
>the first time I tried out ubuntu i kept clicking the right side of the
window for the X and minimise buttons

You can change this, but the option is hidden away somewhere (gnome-tweak-tool
or some dconf option maybe).

------
mmcnl
I get that Pop!_OS is nice, but Ubuntu 19.10 is super polished out of the box
as well. Even though System76 is arguing it is much more than just a reskinned
Ubuntu, my final verdict is that it is just a reskinned Ubuntu.

------
playpause
Styling it “Pop!_OS” seems like a bad idea if they want wide adoption. Should
I type it like that every time? Or maybe omit the explanation mark, as in the
HN submission title? Or just type it the same way as I am (presumably)
supposed to pronounce it, “Pop OS”?

I bet all three variants will be used regularly (and probably other, erroneous
ones like “Pop_OS!” and “Pop_!OS”). What is the point in making a name
ambiguous and difficult to get right? Why not just call it Pop OS?

------
ydau
Lambda Stack is an alternative to Pop!_OS's tensorman, which doesn't use
containers:

[https://lambdalabs.com/lambda-stack-deep-learning-
software](https://lambdalabs.com/lambda-stack-deep-learning-software)

This is a one-line apt/aptitude installation for TensorFlow, PyTorch, CUDA,
cuDNN, etc. When NVIDIA releases a new version of CUDA, you can simply apt-get
upgrade to the latest version.

Disclosure: I work for Lambda Labs.

~~~
mmstick
Do you support the 19.10 release? The inability to compile or package every
version and variant of TF, and GCC9 conflicts with both the CUDA SDK and
Tensorflow, is precisely why we created Tensorman.

~~~
ydau
Lambda Stack supports 16.04 and 18.04 at the moment.

It's value prop is to enable people to easily install TensorFlow / PyTorch and
their dependencies in a container-less fashion. Though it doesn't provide the
isolation of containers.

What I've learned from talking to customers is that many people don't care
that much about handling multiple versions of the same framework. I wouldn't
be surprised if you find that, like Lambda Stack, people are mainly using this
product to easily get started with TensorFlow/Pytorch.

Now that TensorFlow 2.0 is out, we will see a much more stable API. People
won't have to change their code if TensorFlow bumps up a dependency version.
For many, this will reduce the impetus for moving to containers.

~~~
zwaps
Install of PyTorch and CUDA is literally one line in anaconda. I don't
remember what I did for tensorflow, but I have it up and running and I am
quite the computer phillistine so it could not have been much harder.

Maybe the second part is more of a value prop or good point of focus?

------
kraig911
I'm seriously thinking about it. I'm just addicted to creative cloud for
stuff. Anyone know how to get it working with after effects and adobe xd?

~~~
Klonoar
Here's an alternative hot take on this.

You gotta cut the Creative Cloud addiction. Unless you're a full-time designer
(especially if working in print or something), alternative tools exist, and
it's about figuring out how to move and work in them.

No, GIMP isn't in the conversation.

People complain about web tech, but I've found that it's honestly really the
best bet for new design technology. Figma et all are good enough for most
stuff, many have PSD support, and better collaboration stories on top of all
that.

My two cents, at least. I could be wrong, but this is what I'm trying to do -
my logic became "if I'm gonna pay monthly for this shit, why am I paying
Adobe?". They're not even truly native on macOS and it's run worse for me with
each update.

~~~
Uehreka
I get what you’re saying in terms of Photoshop and Illustrator, but what about
After Effects (and by extension Adobe Media Encoder)? I love web tech, but I
have never seen an application come close to the power I get in there.

~~~
mackrevinack
fusion? im pretty sure they have a Linux version. they do with Resolve anyway.
you can also do some fusion stuff inside of resolve now

------
ahbyb
>We’re building an OS for the software developer, maker, and computer science
professional who uses their computer as a tool to discover and create.

Then have a simpler website... This website doesn't look like it's trying to
appeal to a computer scientist.

~~~
rch
The system is rather nice to use, but nothing about the branding of this
distro appeals to anyone, as far as I can tell.

~~~
unethical_ban
I have no idea what you or the GP post mean.

The site loads pretty quickly, does the whole static background scoll thingy,
and explains how you can use it and what its highlights are.

~~~
ahbyb
Let's say that it looks more like the Apple website, when I expect it to look
like the Void Linux website.

------
spiraldancing
I've been using Mint and Ubuntu for the past 5 years. Installed Pop on a spare
laptop 18 months ago, to experiment with.

Switched to Pop as my primary OS 3 months ago.

There isn't much that's radically different ... it's just better, cleaner,
more polished, smooth.

------
7thaccount
I've been using Pop_OS for ~6 months and have found it to be very nice.

------
tracker1
Hopefully this means navi is fully supported... already drained enough hours
trying to get things all working. Wound up reverting to the last Ubuntu LTS.

------
lousken
Last time I've tried popos the installer didn't allow me to install with
custom LVM on LUKS encrypted drive, is that fixed now?

------
klysm
Great project, but adjacent punctuation hurts me

------
earthboundkid
I would be interested if anyone has put Pop on a Pixelbook Go and used it for
web development.

------
blfr
Since it's based on Ubuntu, can I just add a repo and install their desktop?

~~~
ulkesh
Yes you can, I’ve done it in the past. I don’t recall the info, but you can
search for it and should find it easily.

------
islanderfun
Just finished updating my laptop as I make this comment. Super smooth, loving
it!

------
proverbialbunny
For anyone who has used Pop OS how does it compare to Mint?

~~~
dguaraglia
In my experience it was slightly better, but then most of my problems with
Mint were because of Cinnamon. Not sure if drivers or just Cinnamon’s
compositor, but Cinnamon would become really choppy at times. Pop is smooth
and painless to install. I ended up moving to Manjaro and Plasma eventually,
but I’d recommend.

~~~
proverbialbunny
It's cpu vsync. It sucks. It's the only thing I change on Mint.

I install my graphics drivers (nvidia), go to the nvidia settings control
panel, turn on full composition (run the desktop through the gpu) which
enables vsync on the graphics card. I then go into general (settings) and set
vsync to none, disabling cpu vsync. This makes Mint as smooth as butter. It
also improves youtube playback quite a bit.

~~~
dguaraglia
Oh, that makes sense. It definitely affects Plasma to a certain extent too.
The default compositor uses OpenGL 2.0 and I could feel some amount of
subperceptual lag that annoyed the crap of me after a bit. Switched to XRender
and things have been great since.

------
Havoc
Just support ubuntu.

Given how short the cycle is between the two ( < 48 hrs apparently) I find it
hard to believe any real value is added here.

And no I'm not using a OS where just typing the OS name is dependent on
keyboard layout. WTF is wrong with you people? Thats insane. No

~~~
ulkesh
Who are you arguing with?

~~~
Havoc
>Who are you arguing with?

Who's arguing? It's top level comment on a hn submission. Occasionally people
post their opinions. Who am I arguing with? I didn't realize us vs them
mindset is compulsory here.

~~~
ulkesh
Maybe you should re-read the comment. It reads as if you’re angry about
something with little to no context as to what point you’re trying to make.
Whatever works for you, I suppose.

~~~
dajohnson89
I sensed no anger in the comment, and it was a fairly well-made point.

relax.

