
How ‘Authentic Relating’ Made Vulnerability a Movement (2017) - wallflower
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/11/the-club-where-you-bare-your-soul-to-strangers/545786/?single_page=true
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coleifer
Made me think of some of my own experiences with 12-step meetings. I have seen
that it's possible to share vulnerably, and to do it with dignity and grace.
I've also seen first-hand what acceptance and honest sharing can do for a
person's sense of self-worth. It's too bad this kind of interaction with
others is so hard to find. I don't know that I would have ever found it, if I
felt I had another choice.

~~~
aantix
I find most people will be vulnerable if you start the conversation that way
by exposing your own vulnerability.

The book Conscious Loving touches on “telling the microscopic truth” which
provides a lot of tactics for telling messy, complicated feelings. It’s a
wonderful read and will improve your relationships.

~~~
fjsolwmv
Exposing vulnerabilities is also how con artists and cults build rubes' trust.

~~~
emodendroket
That doesn't seem to disprove the thesis.

~~~
krageon
That is true, however I think the point GP is making is that the failure mode
is too catastrophic to actually entertain it as a possibility (I'm not saying
I agree)

~~~
emodendroket
I guess I find "never seek closeness with anyone at all because they may
attempt to cheat you" a worldview too depressing to really adapt for myself.

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stevewillows
Many years ago I used to listen to Lino Rulli on the Catholic Channel (XM
radio). I considered myself a christian at the time, but not catholic.
Nevertheless, his show was hilarious and I tried to listen as often as
possible.

They had this segment called 'minor confessions' where people would confess
things that were pretty inconsequential, but still honest.

Around that time I was on a road trip with some friends and I thought it'd be
fun to play the game. I figured it'd be goofy and kill a few minutes while we
waited for a 'Q'. It didn't take long before the game turned into one of the
most genuine and honest experiences of our relationship together. It was
surprising how quickly we skipped past the minor and got into some pretty
heavy stuff.

Years later I found myself in a booth at a pub with a bunch of dudes from
church essentially having a doubt-group. A friend started out with questioning
the divinity of Jesus -- and it carried from there.

Only a few years ago I was in a depression group therapy program provided by
my local hospital --- and the same raw honestly and openness prevailed.

For me it was clear that early on I wanted this openness and honesty in my
everyday life and not just a few times every few years and I've made a
concerted effort to make it so. At first it was tough to overcome the fear or
fear of shame, but once I got into the habit of it, I discovered that people
value vulnerability and will often mirror this in the relationship.

There is also a line between being honest about struggles and stuff and being
a whiner or a chronic complainer. I think it all boils down to your intention
--- are you being open and honest for the attention or purely for the sake of
something free and beautiful.

I truly hope that 'Authentic relating' catches on... but maybe without a
formal title or 'movement.'

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zestyping
I'd love to see more of these kinds of interactions between people with
differences.

Can you imagine what would happen if people of different races or cultures did
this? Or if a mix of Republicans and Democrats did this? I guess it might be
harder to find common experiences, but there would still be some.

~~~
taurath
I've found one of the most common things to be "I was really down and
depressed and was crashing on couches and didn't have a place to live, and I
was helped by ______" \- for some people it was like, some christian charity
or group, and others its like some social worker who took the time to help me
out. That ends up being the difference between what side one is on later in
political terms.

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nish1500
I have been with quite a few relating groups spanning a few countries. The
author's experience reflects what most newcomers feel.

However, I find the demographic very surprising. The relating groups I
frequent had more women than men, and very few people under 30.

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RcouF1uZ4gsC
Throughout much of human history, extended family, shared locality(ie
village), and/or religion used to provide people with a sense of community.
With the breakdown of all three in the Western world, it is not surprising
that commmunity and the intimacy that goes along with are are now being
monetized.

~~~
trhway
Human weaknesses have been monetized, exploited and preyed upon by other
humans through all the known history. Yearning for the community/intimacy is a
weakness that religion for example has been exploiting all that time, and now
others is getting a piece of that pie.

~~~
krageon
"Yearning for the community/intimacy is a weakness"

Do you seriously believe all human needs are just weakness? What will
someone's life be like if all that 'weakness' was removed? To my mind, it'd be
incredibly dull.

~~~
trhway
Not all needs, and even the same need can be either strength or weakness. For
example - just being afraid of "dull" is kind of weakness where is curiosity
and drive for exploration is more like a strength. The same for the community
- needing it in order just to not feel lonely (basically to satisfy your own
need) looks to be a weakness where is wanting/building community/team to
achieve some goal looks more like a strength to me.

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kirykl
Those ‘games’ are Meisner technique acting exercises

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switch_kickflip
I think there is tremendous potential in baking in these sorts of games into
some kind of chat application.

The creators of Chatroulette originally wanted an app that could connect
people around the world, it just turned out become a platform for people
exposing themselves over webcam. If you could avoid that, and build a platform
that nudges people into building these intimate conversations across the
world, you might bring huge value to a world where people are increasingly
lonely.

~~~
majos
Omegle used to do something like this. The random stranger chats often started
with prompts (but I don't remember what they were).

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swsieber
This comes from religious perspective, and one probably not widely shared
(idk), so I expect this to be taken with a grain of salt: (hopefully, it is
still comforting)

God's purpose is not to make us comfortable or to make life easy. It is to
make us better, and happier. As part of that setup and goal, there are a
couple of ways we can experience hard times. It can be from our own actions,
and even the actions of others. Other times, it can be because we are doing
things right, and are ready to grow and push our limits.

My point is this: experiencing a hard time doesn't mean you are doing anything
wrong - it can come just as easily to someone doing everything right as to
someone doing everything wrong. And in both cases, it can feel much the same

Bonus Analogy:

When searching for the absolute maxima in a 3d plane, you can be at low point
for one of two reasons - either you're not doing it right and aren't actually
heading uphill, or you reached a local maxima, and need to go lower in order
to reach higher heights.

Corollary: We don't get to judge others for their hard times :)

~~~
Aaargh20318
> God's purpose is not to make us comfortable or to make life easy. It is to
> make us better, and happier.

I'm not religious and I don't think life has a purpose, but this sounds like a
contradiction. How can life be good if it's not comfortable and easy ? You're
basically saying she's making life better by making it worse. That makes no
sense.

> My point is this: experiencing a hard time doesn't mean you are doing
> anything wrong - it can come just as easily to someone doing everything
> right as to someone doing everything wrong

Of course it doesn't, but that doesn't mean there is some higher power guiding
it. Life is just random, bad stuff happens for no reason, so does good stuff.

~~~
abraae
> How can life be good if it's not comfortable and easy ?

Really? As soon as you encounter discomfort or difficulty, life's no longer
good? That philosophy will be wearying over the years.

~~~
Aaargh20318
> As soon as you encounter discomfort or difficulty, life's no longer good?

Yes. I'm also of the opinion that the good doesn't compensate for the bad.
Life is suffering, and being born is the worst thing that can happen to a
person (I'm an anti-natalist and supporter of the voluntary human extinction
movement).

~~~
tomrod
You and I have very different views I think.

I'm amazed, humbled, and grateful to be alive (not to any sentience, mind you,
just grateful). To be the universe experiencing itself.

Life includes suffering, yes, but also the opportunity to ease the suffering
of self and others.

I interpret your point of antinatalism that you see humanity as the fluke of
the probability. Personally, I think we give ourselves meaning, and I can
think of no better long-term mission for existence than beating heat death of
the universe, even if it's simply to give a middle-finger to the universe for
the suffering people endure.

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deewelch
It is not 100% sure that a Vulnerability movement is authentic. There are
always lies within a movement.

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analognoise
This is depressing for a reason I can't really articulate. There are this many
people with unresolved issues, or a lack of connections, or is it an outgrowth
of the self-centered oversharing movement?

I wonder if most of these people have kids or not, or plan on it.

~~~
swsieber
It's probably a mix of all of it, but there are more people struggling than it
first appears. Relevant quote from a prominent leader in a church I attend:

 _When I was a young man, I served as counselor to a wise district president
in the Church. He tried to teach me. One of the things I remember wondering
about was this advice he gave: "When you meet someone, treat them as if they
were in serious trouble, and you will be right more than half the time."

I thought then that he was pessimistic. Now, more than 40 years later, I can
see how well he understood the world and life._

~~~
linkmotif
Thanks for passing this on.

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carapace
It seems like anti-EST

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training)

~~~
thinkling
That's an interesting observation.

While EST has the reputation of having been abusive, its descendant The
Landmark Forum is not. A lot of The Forum consists of people opening up about
their lives, their fears and emotions, events that have shaped them, and their
inner life.

Of course the attendees are a self-selecting group, but my #1 take-away from
The Forum was the discovery that everyone else in the room was insecure, too.
The stories they shared were fascinating and worth the price of admission.

~~~
mirimir
In my experience, "authentic relating" was a major part of est, and has
remained a major part of Landmark Education. All of their programs involve
verbal sharing, one-to-one and full-group. Also nonverbal sharing that they
call "being with".

Also, I'm sure that many found est programs abusive. It was certainly much
harder. Rather like military boot camp. Long sessions that didn't end until
everyone "got it". The "Six Day", for example. I doubt that it could be done
today. Just four hours sleep, at most. Running uphill for maybe one km every
morning at dawn. A being-with exercise in swimming suits, in a pattern that
had everyone eventually face everyone else. No coffee, tea, tobacco, or other
drugs. A ropes course. What a trip :)

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radicaldreamer
It was bound to happen as more and more of our personal lives are turning into
personal brand-building moments... and as the mechanics of capitalism have
permeated ever increasing swaths of people's time.

There is a building backlash and this is just seems like a stop gap,
therapeutic measure.

~~~
tjr225
Some times I wonder if the Algorithms getting better, or are we simplifying
our humanity to make it easier for the algorithms to interpret?

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dvanduzer
Website: Help me relate this to the Web of Trust

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deewelch
you cannot say 100% that a Vulnerability movement is authentic. Because lies
were also witing in every movement.

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megous
> Authentic relating uses exercises, or games, to teach the skills necessary
> to quickly create deep, meaningful human connection.

You can not create deep meaningful human connection quickly. It's just a game
with emotions. A game plenty of organizations and cult gurus abuse for money
and power.

If a person feels safe he might talk about things he would not otherwise. Yes.
But deep meaningful connection requires both people knowing each other for a
long time, spending a lot of time together and living through a lot of
different situations, both hard and easy, dead serious and playful.

~~~
qgaultier
In my case, it is easier to be open with people I hardly know. All my fiends
and family do have strong opinions and outdated views of myself. Talking to a
stranger who is willing to listen is easier and deeper.

~~~
le-mark
I think this is an interesting line of thought. I'm almost 50, reasonably
accomplished in my career, financially successful, respected by my peers, but
whenever I'm around my older sisters, I'm right back in that annoying, barely
tolerated little brother reality. I don't much care for it, which is why I
don't have much of a relationship with them, haven't for years.

Anyway I've thought this for years, is there a name for it, or some other
deeper meaning? Familiarity breeds contempt, maybe?

~~~
thrav
Are you saying you act that way, or they treat you that way?

People, for many reasons, automate other people in their minds. They define
them, and aren’t willing to adapt their definition. They want the world to
remain as they think it is, so they continue to treat it, and you, like it
was.

Sounds like they’re clinging to a sense of superiority in an effort to delude
themselves that you aren’t all that.

