
Brexit's Tech Brain Drain - jesslynnrose
http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/03/brexits-tech-brain-drain-may-have-already-begun/
======
blowski
A few anecdotes doesn't count as evidence. I voted for Remain, and hope very
much that the Brexit process collapses and we end up staying in the EU. But I
also don't want to spend the next 2 years being drip-fed poor quality articles
about how we're going to hell in a handbasket.

~~~
jacquesm
I think that the chances of the Brexit process collapsing just collapsed
themselves. The only way to do that was to _not_ trigger Article 50.

~~~
atomwaffel
Not quite:

> the UK will be able to revoke its notification of article 50 but this must
> be “subject to conditions set by all EU27 so they cannot be used as a
> procedural device or abused in an attempt to improve the actual terms of the
> United Kingdom’s membership”. [1]

So in short, remaining is less likely than ever but still possible.

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/29/first-eu-
re...](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/29/first-eu-response-to-
article-50-takes-tough-line-on-transitional-deal)

~~~
jacquesm
True, _but_ May has (repeatedly) threatened to go out 'without a deal' if she
can't get terms she likes.

The UK has to somehow bluff its way into a negotiation position and I fail to
see how all these statements and laws are compatible with each other.

------
ben_w
I'm one of the soon-to-be-expat Brits. Like Herr Pierzina, I'm also troubled
by the IP Act.

Moving is really not fun, but move I must: the IP Act is unconscionable in
many parts, and Brexit takes away one of the few powers that could fight those
parts.

Two Home Secretaries in a row that just don't get encryption.

My time is split between finishing my novel, learning German, and trying to
catch up on tech that came out while I was writing.

~~~
inputcoffee
There is more tech on heaven and earth, Horatio, then can be caught up amidst
your philosophies.

~~~
ben_w
Oui, aber mit Deutsche, kaj Esperanoto, και Ελληνικά, I think my philosophies
may be broader than most.

More seriously, I know I would be surprised if more than 5% leave willingly. I
don't want to go, I just see no choice. Our collective departure will probably
boost the wages for developers who do stay in the UK, but by how much, and
against which currencies I would not dare to say — economics is an expert
level subject, of which I know only the basics.

~~~
FilterSweep
I actually would be one of the developers to come in. As bad as your problems
are in the UK, the USA are far worse especially with your browser history
effectively being able to be sold to the highest bidder[0]

Not mentioned([0]) is the fact that hiring and recruiting companies will be
able to [ab]use this data

[0] [http://www.marketwatch.com/story/your-browser-history-
could-...](http://www.marketwatch.com/story/your-browser-history-could-soon-
be-sold-to-advertisers-without-your-consent-2017-03-28)

~~~
ben_w
I sympathise, but I seriously recommend looking at the UK government's
attitude towards encryption and privacy before you jump here. They mean well,
but… well, the support material for the IP act reads like their understanding
of the internet hasn't changed since 1998.

Part of the Investigation Powers Act is that particular ISPs will be required
to store an unspecified dataset related to your browsing history for 12
months, and that they have to keep secret the fact that they are doing so.

------
hn_throwaway_99
It's at least somewhat ironic, though, that the first person profiled in the
article is from Norway, as Norway has always rejected EU membership. If you're
upset about Britain leaving the EU, "taking your talents back to Norway" makes
it sound like EU membership isn't exactly top of your concerns.

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
> as Norway has always rejected EU membership

But Norway is in the European Economic Area, meaning the (all or nothing)
agreement for "the free movement of persons, goods, services and capital
within the European Single Market".

if keeping those freedoms are your concern, then you have every right to
prefer Norway over England.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area)

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
But negotiations haven't even started between UK and EU over the terms of the
exit and what the relationship will look like in 2 years. Seems this article
is trying to take a few anecdotes that have a tenuous relationship at best to
Brexit being the real root cause of these people leaving.

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
The EU have been consistently clear that those freedoms are "all or nothing"
\- you don't e.g. get free trade without free movement, end of.

I would be delighted if England gets the "all" deal like Norway, but that's
unlikely since to the Leavers that's a "why bother" Brexit In Name Only.

------
djmobley
Foolish and premature.

The UK government has not expressed any intention to restrict skilled
immigration in industries facing skills shortages.

It is totally unrestricted immigration of low-skilled individuals that the
government (and it's fair to say the British population) are opposed to.

~~~
mdekkers
_It is totally unrestricted immigration of low-skilled individuals that the
government (and it 's fair to say the British population) are opposed to._

This may be the case. Brexit is the dumbest solution to that particular
problem though.

~~~
jerf
Had any other solutions been made available, Brexit probably wouldn't be
happening.

The EU chose to not make solutions available and stuck it into a "take it or
leave it" basket. It seems to me to be a recurring pattern with over-
centralized government that they start using more and more of their power this
way; you can see it in the US now too, for instance in the way the Trump
administration is continuing to saber rattle about either enforcing
immigration laws as they choose or cutting off as much Federal funding as they
can from cities and states that refuse to comply with their interpretation.
It's a very _tempting_ way to exert power, but it makes the system
increasingly fragile as you do it, because you eventually get to the point
where people start seriously considering and/or triggering the "leave it"
option (see also Calexit, for instance; still not very serious but certainly
more serious now than it was a year ago).

~~~
CaptainZapp

      The EU chose to not make solutions available and stuck it into a "take it or leave it" basket.
    

What do you suggest the EU should have done? Free movement is one of the
cornerstones of the EU and pretty much not up for negootiation. This includes
associated countries like Norway or Switzerland.

So I'm really curious: What, do you suggest, should the EU have offered?

~~~
jerf
"pretty much not up for negootiation."

You basically reiterate my point, that it is "take it all or leave it".

The first step to a solution is obvious right from your phrasing: Put it up
for a negotiation. Stop viewing this as "take it all or leave it".

Or, alternatively, be ready to deal with "leave it" as an option. Which, I'd
observe, the EU legally was, as this is a legal option that has always existed
and is now occurring with no bloodshed, which as these things go is still a
well-above-average accomplishment. But psychologically the EU was clearly not
ready for this; the expectation is still clearly that, like the United States,
members may join but not leave.

~~~
kuschku
> The first step to a solution is obvious right from your phrasing: Put it up
> for a negotiation. Stop viewing this as "take it all or leave it".

That’s like saying we should put the right to live up for negotiation, as
humans don’t need to live anyway.

If you allow free trade without free movement, companies can move all jobs to
another country, and your country might end up with no jobs, and all people
poor and fucked.

The only way to guarantee fairness in trade is if your citizen can move to
wherever the jobs are, too.

This is a _constitutional cornerstone_ of the EU.

~~~
jerf
Then the EU apparently wrote into its constitutional cornerstone something
that was not possible to manifest in the real world, and as a result it is
breaking up, at least a little now and possibly still more in the future.
Again, at least it is doing so without bloodshed.

The EU has no ontological right to exist. It is not an immutable fact of the
universe. It is not rationally or logically valid to reason from "The EU
requires this attribute for it to exist as I envision it" to "This attribute
must be attainable at a reasonable price." or any variant on that.

I take a historical view on these things. Things are always changing. There
exists no polity in history that only grew and never shrank, excepting only
those polities that are new enough to not have shrunk yet.

I'm actually sort of becoming something of a secessionist. Not pro-Brexit or
pro-Calexit or pro-any-particular-secession, but just generally in favor of
the idea that since polities are inevitably going to shrink at some point in
the future, it is preferable to make sure that such processes are as easy and
as _bloodless_ as possible. People shouldn't need to die by the thousands or
millions for something so predictable. I am coming to believe it is a mistake
to ever think that one can "permanently" bind a smaller polity into a larger
one. And I believe the US has the _much_ greater problem here! The US has no
established mechanism for leaving (though a Constitutional amendment could
make it possible), and a big ol' Civil War that says it's not possible in the
bloodiest possible way. To the extent that we are having similar issues arise
in the US, we have no peaceful mechanism for dealing with it.

~~~
barrkel
The EU is well short of breaking up; that's "fog in channel, continent cut
off" territory. It's the UK that's breaking up, and I think you know it.

The north of my island, Ireland, is a particularly interesting question,
independent of Scotland, pardon the pun. Certain breeds of criminals get very
fat on smuggling.

~~~
jerf
The EU is breaking up a little now. It's concrete now. It is no longer correct
to claim it is not breaking up to a non-zero extent. And there are other
countries that are at least making noise about leaving that I would consider
feasible candidates over the next 5-10 years.

The UK is definitely facing a lot of stress and I'd place the odds of
something breaking away, and that part possibly even rejoining the EU (though
that remains to be seen; in the amount of time it will take to accomplish that
the calculations of cost/benefit for joining the EU may shift substantially)
in the next 5-10 years as quite high.

As someone who just identified as "a bit of a secessionist", I haven't got
much motivation for sugarcoating these things, nor even necessarily
considering "denying the possibility of secession" as a form of sugarcoating.
I'm not sure what the "and I think you know it" bit is for.

I also consider the US a good candidate for some separation. Relatedly, though
this isn't "secession" in the same sense, I wouldn't be surprised the Middle
East has some country lines that look very different in 20 years. If the world
gets into a secessionist mood, Catalan may finally peel away, Quebec
separatism could heat up again, and if one listens to the little whispers
coming out of China I wouldn't consider it out of the question it ends up
cracked into a few pieces. The world has been awfully stagnant politically for
a long time, even _before_ we consider the radical technical and social shifts
occurring at a rate never before seen in history; I find it implausible that
all these changes won't eventually result in some sort of manifestation on the
globe. I would not be surprised we're coming up on one of the "punctuations"
in a punctuated equilibrium; my interest (to the extent that it matters, which
is virtually nil) is not in preventing that from happening, but making sure it
happens with as little dying as possible.

------
kalekold
> The loss of a handful of technologists might not feel immediately urgent but
> may signal a larger trend.

...and it may not. More brexit fear-mongering.

------
fpp
The Brexit is just one of key changes hitting the UK tech working / start-up /
corporate environments in the moment.

Brexit, IP Act, changes to IR35 (in / out), the £ drop, announcements of major
city firms to reduce staff by 30%+, slowing global economies (real not what
statistics are telling), UK service price increases of 10% - 20% as seen in
the last months or to come with e.g. electricity, IT and communication
services in the next weeks.

All these contribute to a climate of uncertainty and making the UK less
competitive.

I've been closely watching various areas of the IT contractor market for the
last months - these are normally very good indicators how healthy the industry
is / how positive or negative forward looking is.

In more than 15 years I have never seen these markets being as bad as they are
in the moment.

This might all sound very gloomy, but if the UK government continues with
their path as seen in the last months, they are burning the ground we all in
the UK stand on.

~~~
titraprutr
> In more than 15 years I have never seen these markets being as bad as they
> are in the moment

Care to elaborate a bit on this? I'm genuinely interested.

------
s3nnyy
After Brexit everyone in Zurich thought that all FinTech startups would move
from London to Frankfurt or maybe Zurich, since Switzerland has tight
relationships with the EU.

This did not seem to happen.

Also, I haven't gotten more UK people asking me for tech jobs in Zurich
compared to before Brexit. (I run a tech recruiting agency; happy to help
people who want to move to Switzerland, you finde the recently released job-
list here:
[https://coderfit.catsone.com/careers/](https://coderfit.catsone.com/careers/)
\- job-descriptions are still WIP, please bear with us)

~~~
gokhan
Your ability to connect any recruitment related article discussing something
local for anywhere in the world to your recruiting agency in Zurich is
impressive:) I don't normally recognize people on HN without looking at the
nickname but I know it's you all the time :)

~~~
s3nnyy
Thank you! I honestly primarily try to add value.

Some people moved because of these posts, so I hope my outreach has a positive
net impact on the HN community.

~~~
jacquesm
> I hope my outreach has a positive net impact on the HN community.

And of course on your wallet.

~~~
s3nnyy
It's not so much actually. If you think recruiting is easy money, you are
wrong.

------
jamiethompson
It has begun. One of our best developers is moving back to Poland. I can't say
I blame him.

~~~
5040
Surely this is a victory for Poland?

~~~
TorKlingberg
That depends, are there companies in Poland that can make good use of his
specific skills? You cannot ignore the effects of matching people with the
jobs where they are most productive. People moving between countries is not a
zero sum game.

~~~
8draco8
A lot has changed in Poland trough past couple years especially for
developers. You can now get decent salary in major cities. It's still not as
good as in UK where you can have decent salary in cities with population of
30k+ but it's getting there, plus there is always Germany witch is close
enough.

Quick story. I am working for small UK holidays company located in one of the
biggest IT hubs outside of London. Our whole dev team is made up from non UK,
EU citizens. Recently we had openings for mid backend dev and junior/mid
frontend dev roles and only about 20% of CVs was from native UK citizens
(mostly, highly under qualified even for junior role/couldn't pass FizzBuzz).
Rest of candidates was mix of EU, visas and double citizenship and we ended up
offering both positions to two EU citizens.

If UK government will ban employment of people from outside of UK or make it
difficult or expensive then small companies like ours will not be able to
operate.

I see that developers are looking more and more for jobs outside of the UK.
Recruiters and EU employers also can see what is going on and I'm receiving
more job offers from them, offering help with relocation outside of UK.

------
inputcoffee
Ultimate Irony: if the Brexit leads to brain drain leads to importing more
immigrants.

~~~
bengale
We've already been told this won't lead to a drop in immigration as we need
the staff. The power to control it will be ours but we won't be exercising it.

------
TorKlingberg
I know at least one programmer who is leaving the UK because of Brexit.
Personally I am staying put and assuming things will work out ok.

~~~
67726e
Are they truly leaving, actually making plans and the like or did they just
say they were going to leave because I heard countless friends talk of leaving
for Canada if Trump won and not a damn one did.

~~~
FilterSweep
> and not a damn one did.

Since the Patriot Act and other changes in the early 2000s, your nationality
is henceforth _Sticky_ if you live in the US.

My sister expatriated last year (to UK, actually) from US, and she had to hire
an immigration attorney, go through interrogations (from both destination and
comefrom), and actually got sent back to the US once they found accidentally
conflicting stories from her friends who currently live in the UK.

I'd never make fun of people who express desire to leave. Not everyone has the
same circumstances as you.

~~~
67726e
I have not made fun of everyone, I only pointed out the perennial "flee to
Canada" claims in light of the most recent "bad thing."

------
paulajohnson
The drain in brains goes mainly west in planes.

~~~
ben_w
I considered Silicon Valley until I realised how different UK and US politics
are. Extreme right wing in the UK is a bit to the left of Obama.

If the EU does collapse, I'll consider Canada.

------
pimterry
I'm in a similar position: I've recently left (to Spain, working remotely)
originally temporarily, but the further this goes the less tempted I am to
ever head home.

That said, this is all anecdotal. Still, while anecdotes aren't data, they do
suggest that there could be some interesting data hidden nearby... Is there
any hard research or even just large surveys that are actually looking at
this?

------
elandybarr
If the roles they are leaving are truly "in demand", the market will make up
for it.

For perspective, that feeling of, "Wow! This place is different now" is what
some of these same people were imposing on the locals.

This article seems like it was solely written to make Leave voters feel guilty
and further shame them in the eyes of those who voted Stay. What else could be
the point?

------
jwineinger
And the final sentences of the piece undermine the rest of it.

> Many technologists interviewed will remain in the U.K. through Brexit,
> citing family ties, work or a desire to stay and effect change at home.
> While few technologists interviewed offered optimistic outlooks of a post-
> Brexit British tech scene, many are determined to do what they can in its
> wake.

------
throwaway_374
Curious to get some perspective from (British) Londoners and how they feel
about this. Do they not feel cornered out of the market against the top 1% of
global talent heading to London? Particularly in tech with insane recruiting
procedures.

------
cttet
No one think of it in another way: they were originally talents in their home
country and it is actually the recovery of the "Brain-Drain" of their home
country...

------
robk
Anecdotally I've heard about more people moving to uk from America than
leaving uk for EU over the last few months.

------
d--b
Been there, moved out.

------
sdiepend
good quote from the comments:

 _Overlord_Dave • 11 minutes ago

Remember guys and gals, the plural of anecdote is not data_

~~~
dijit
The thing is, I agree this article is low quality but the compound nature of
brexit+snoopers charter+uncertainty with companies is certainly affecting the
attractiveness of the country.

I'm British, I left to go work in Sweden for a couple years while my
girlfriend finished her studies here, since I've been here we've had
_significant_ challenges and erosions of rights and privacy in the UK, the EU
(with all its warts) was investing much more in deprived areas of the country
than the UK government was (or had done pre-EU).

It's bleak, there's a bigger country than just London (which currently carries
almost the entire of the rest of the UK financially) and the companies that
run there are fickle.

There is a self-fulfilling cycle that goes with London, companies go there
because it's where the brains are. Brains go there because it's where the
companies are.

If there is another place companies go, the brains will undoubtedly follow.
Then who carries the UK?

\-- Sorry, this turned into a rant, all I really wanted to say is:

Anecdatum is not data; but with enough of it, it can certainly paint a keen
picture of the situation for many.

~~~
user5994461
>>> If there is another place companies go, the brains will undoubtedly
follow.

Companies want the brain to go there, the brains want the company there to go
there. Circular dependency.

That's why there are only few tech hubs and they won't change.

