
Are Dev Bootcamps a scam? A Hacker's perspective - louhong
http://www.techendo.co/posts/are-dev-bootcamps-a-scam-a-hacker-s-perspective
======
everettForth
Another hacker's perspective: no, they are not a scam.

Right now, demand is high enough in the bay area, that I believe these schools
are a great value for someone who wants to start a career in iOS or web
development. The tuition for Hacker Bootcamp is ~$12k, and they claim that 88%
get job offers after graduating, with an average salary of $79k.

I recently met 2 people who graduated from hacker bootcamp. The first guy had
a great attitude, seemed very curious, motivated, and interested in learning.
He had multiple offers in the $80-90k range. He kept talking about what a
great time he had interviewing with one company, which I'm pretty sure is the
company he would eventually pick.

The other guy had a worse attitude, no offers yet and seemed like he almost
felt entitled to a senior level job because he finished hacker bootcamp.
Considering that I've been doing this stuff for 10 years now, it was hard to
see someone with such high expectations for 6 months of effort not being met.

They won't guarantee you a job, but they are not a scam. This may be a little
extreme, but I was reminded of this Vonnegut quote: “Beware of the man who
works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than
before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without
having come by their ignorance the hard way.”

------
morganpolotan
I was accepted into Fullstack Academy, a NYC bootcamp that is one of the
schools this article is about. I'm currently a programming intern at Thinkful,
an ed-tech startup in NY.

> The bootcamp model gives you an "intensive" course good enough so that
> you're able to build a shitty web app, and then they hopefully place you in
> a job needing a code monkey.

Everyone writes shitty code when they first start. Building shitty web apps is
better than building no web apps, which is what most beginners do. Bootcamps
force you to build stuff early, and building is the best way to learn. Your
5th web app won't be so shitty.

> Personally I'm against charging to teach others how to code. If people come
> to the profession with drive and passion, I believe it should be free. I
> wasn't charged when I first asked how to code.

This is an idealistic fantasy. Sure, learning to code for free is better than
learning to code for $12k. But human labor is scarce and people don't work for
free.

> I also think good programming is a journey, not something that can be
> consumed and digested in a compacted 12-week course.

Agree. I see bootcamps as the third step on a journey to becoming an entry-
level developer. The 1st phase is with online resources like CodeAcademy and
CodeSchool, the 2nd with mentor-led part-time courses like Thinkful, and the
3rd with bootcamps or apprenticeships. The 4th phase is all the learning you
should be doing on the job ;-)

------
Jayschwa
I think if a dev bootcamp is confident, they won't charge their students
unless they land a job. (Added: a few people have noted that App Academy is a
bootcamp that uses this model.)

I personally prefer the
[https://www.hackerschool.com/](https://www.hackerschool.com/) model. It is
not a "bootcamp". There is no structure, aside from what the students come up
with themselves. It's a good place for both newbies and seasoned vets alike.
It is free. They make their money by helping students get jobs at partner
companies. If a student gets a job at a partner company, the company pays the
fee, not the student.

Disclaimer: I attended Hacker School and got a job through them. It was a
worthwhile sabbatical and "reboot" for my career (after being burnt out by my
previous software job of six years).

~~~
RogerL
"I think if a dev bootcamp is confident, they won't charge their students
unless they land a job."

That sounds seriously un-optimal. Like it or not, some people will sign up and
for whatever reason not get a job. They decide they hate programming. They
have a mental health issue. They are not very smart. Parents get ill and they
have to move across the country. And so on. So, to make the same money, the
company will have to charge the successful students _more_ money. Why should
I, a smart student, pay more money and subsidize the untalented, unmotivated,
or just unlucky student. It makes no sense why I would want that.

~~~
bhaumik
That's not how it works at any bootcamps. Reasons #1,2,3 you mentioned can be
somewhat filtered in the application process.

------
shawndrost
I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor, one of the schools that this article is
about.

> I also think good programming is a journey, not something that can be
> consumed and digested in a compacted 12-week course.

I am in emphatic agreement -- we tell our students that the point of our
school is to get to a spot where you can get paid to learn the rest, and we
hold classes for alums to encourage ongoing education.

> Personally I'm against charging to teach others how to code.

Sounds like a fine personal philosophy. Our students faced a decision of self-
instruction vs Hack Reactor, and they choose to pay the instructors at my
school (who took pay cuts when we hired them away from Twitter, Adobe, Google,
etc but are nonetheless pretty pricey). I summarized my perception of why in
this quora post: [http://www.quora.com/Programming-Bootcamps/Self-study-vs-
Boo...](http://www.quora.com/Programming-Bootcamps/Self-study-vs-Boot-camp-
Starting-from-zero-can-self-study-achieve-the-same-goal-become-dev-at-a-
decent-west-coast-company-as-attending-a-boot-camp)

> I'd like to hear back from bootcamp graduates on their experiences both in
> the program and in the real world.

[http://www.quora.com/Reviews-of-Hack-Reactor](http://www.quora.com/Reviews-
of-Hack-Reactor) [http://www.yelp.com/biz/hack-reactor-san-
francisco](http://www.yelp.com/biz/hack-reactor-san-francisco)

> ...good enough so that you're able to build a shitty web app, and then they
> hopefully place you in a job needing a code monkey...

I'm not a fan of the tone of this article, but it's also aggravating that the
content is incorrect. Student projects include 3d space shooters
([http://satellite-game.com/](http://satellite-game.com/)), bittorrent clients
([https://github.com/rtjoseph11/nTorrent](https://github.com/rtjoseph11/nTorrent)),
music visualizers ([http://arcanegl.jit.su/](http://arcanegl.jit.su/)), a
reddit-focused machine learning / dataviz mashup
([http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/17/reddit-insight-interview-
ha...](http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/17/reddit-insight-interview-hack-
reactor/)), distributed computing platforms
([http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/06/43651/](http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/06/43651/)),
etc.

~~~
petea
These Yelp reviews mean very little to be honest. What kind of an idiot would
write a bad review when

1\. Writing bad review of the code training you got basically admits to others
that your skills as a programmer is poor.

2\. You risk souring interpersonal relationship you might have built going to
the program. When you say the code training you got at X is bad, you are
actually telling potential employers that people who got training from X are
also bad. Who writes in their grad school application that they got trained in
Kaplan?

\--- edited point 2

~~~
shawndrost
[http://www.yelp.com/biz/kaplan-test-prep-and-admissions-
san-...](http://www.yelp.com/biz/kaplan-test-prep-and-admissions-san-
francisco)

Edit: As pointed out below, this isn't a comparable institution. However, I
think we can empirically test the question "Will students offer bad yelp
reviews to schools that are their primary credential?" The answer seems to be
yes:

[http://www.yelp.com/biz/bay-area-medical-academy-san-
francis...](http://www.yelp.com/biz/bay-area-medical-academy-san-francisco)
[http://www.yelp.com/biz/los-angeles-film-school-los-
angeles](http://www.yelp.com/biz/los-angeles-film-school-los-angeles)
[http://www.yelp.com/biz/southern-california-health-
institute...](http://www.yelp.com/biz/southern-california-health-institute-
north-hollywood)

~~~
markkanof
That's a bad example.

When trying to get a job an interviewer could possibly see a bad review that a
student left of your school and assume that means the student may not have the
skills necessary for the job. Also, presumably at your school as students and
instructors are interacting personal relationships are being developed (ie.
networking) which could be beneficial in finding a job. If the student then
gives a bad review of the school it could burn the bridges that they built
while in the class.

On the other hand, when someone is grading a standardized test, they grade
based on how you answered the test questions. They don't do an internet search
to see what kind of preparation you had for the test. It's different than a
job interview because a test is judging what skills and knowledge you are
demonstrating at that point in time, whereas a job interview is judging both
where you are at now and what you will be able to do in the future. Also,
hopefully in a test prep class there is no direct advantage to be gained by
networking as that would defeat the purpose of the test.

~~~
shawndrost
Yeah, good point -- my response was pretty vapid. trololo

------
hkon
In short, probably not.

The students learns valuable lessons in exchange for money. Probably quicker
than they would on their own.

It's just speculation on my part, but I'll imagine having someone point you in
the right direction on almost every turn will speed the learning up a lot, and
provide good value for the student.

------
ScottWhigham
_Personally I 'm against charging to teach others how to code._

You want someone to teach you to code, with which you could earn $100k/yr for
30+ more years, and you want them to volunteer their time to do that for you?
I bet you do.

How many hours per week and for how long will it take someone to teach you
"how to code"? Let's call it 100 hours just b/c we need to have some sort of
cap. We'll use me as the example - I have a full time gig already (where I
work 50-60 hour weeks), two young kids, and a wife - so my time is limited.
But hey - 100 hours... Okay - let's do it.

The key question is, "Do I have time to 'train' two people at the same time,
or can I only train one?" Probably one person - I don't have a training room
set up FFS. So now we have a bottleneck.

"But, Scott, I'm talking about learning on the job - having one of your co-
workers train you." Perfect - so you're working in such a great environment
that your co-worker is (a) an expert coder, (b) an expert trainer, and (c)
your company lets you spend 100+ hours together (200 man hours) of paid time
for him to train you? Lucky you - that puts you in the 0.001%.

However, if the tables were turned (you were the expert employee who is
teaching the youngster), wouldn't you be getting paid to train? Maybe you
would donate your next 2 1/2 weeks just so you could train this young person?

Absurd statement.

~~~
lowglow
Hi, author here. Sure. I think learning for free and helping others is really
popular among the hacking community. That's how I and a lot of other people
learned to program.

------
carlsednaoui
I certainly don't believe that bootcamps are a scam, I think that the _right_
bootcamp can provide a beginner with the foundation needed to succeed as an
engineer-in-training. The way I see it, "being an engineer" is a life-long
journey.

When you're starting to code the first few 100 hours tend to be the most
difficult ones (since so much is new). This is where the support you get from
a bootcamp is really helpful.

Also, "becoming an engineer" aside, I think that learning to code has many
side benefits. One of them being that it helps clarify the way you think. In a
recent blog post, Hilary Mason (from Bit.ly) articulated this very well:

"That you can apparently complete a three month Ruby bootcamp and get a job
today is an artifact of a bizarre employment market, and likely unsustainable.
But by dedicating three months to learning to think in a logical framework,
you’ll also gain an ability that will open opportunities for you for the rest
of your life." [http://www.hilarymason.com/blog/learn-to-code-learn-to-
think...](http://www.hilarymason.com/blog/learn-to-code-learn-to-think/)

Full disclaiment: I'm the Marketing Engineer at
[http://www.thinkful.com](http://www.thinkful.com) (an online school that
teaches beginners to code through mentorship and projects) and I was a
Thinkful student before joining the team fulltime. Also, I was part of the
last batch at [https://www.hackerschool.com/](https://www.hackerschool.com/)
\- an excelent program that could be compared to a bootcamp given it's
duration and how intensive it is.

------
7Figures2Commas
> In the end, while some graduates may have potential, I'd be willing to bet
> the majority are unemployable if it weren't for such a talent drought.

A couple of honest questions about this statement:

1\. Is there _really_ a talent drought, or is there an overabundance of
companies looking for employees they don't need? I see a lot of companies
seeking "rockstar" engineers with CS degrees and an insane level of expertise
across the entire stack, but many of them are operating relatively
straightforward CRUD applications at limited to modest scale.

2\. If companies are hiring less-than-capable developers because of this
perceived "talent drought", which the OP seems to be suggesting, what exactly
are these developers doing all day? "Fake it until you make it" has very real
limits. I don't care how intense a bootcamp is. If a company _truly_ needs
developers with a certain level of expertise, a rookie developer's lack of
real-world experience is quickly going to become apparent. So if bootcamp
graduates are being tolerated, it would suggest that, at least in some cases,
companies can live with less experience and competence than they say they
need.

------
petea
This Dev Bootcamp phenomenon negatively affects Ruby and Ruby on Rails
community disproportionately more than any other. I think pretty much all
these training courses sell Ruby on Rails as the goto platform to learn. If
this trend continues, Rails will be where PHP is now (no offence to smart
people doing PHP, but you know what I mean).

Ruby/Ruby on Rails community isn't new to dealing with other people bad
mouthing them. Remember Zed Shaw declaring "Rails Is A Ghetto"
([http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/ruby/rails/is-a-
ghetto](http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/ruby/rails/is-a-ghetto)) in 2007?
Despite many haters, Rails penetrated through Java/.NET duopoly, and it has
gained a lot of respect since then. All the bad mouthing didn't matter back
then. Rails had so many talented people. Really smart people were coming from
Java and .NET world into Rails and some of them were very passionate about
making the technology better. This trends is on a notable decline now.

------
MortenK
There is an interesting parallel to what is happening in the US today with
these dev bootcamps, to the surge in IT workers in countries like India and
Pakistan this last decade.

In these countries, an incredible demand for developers arose very fast
because of the "new" possibility of offshore outsourcing.

You had radio mechanics, electricians, admin workers flocking to IT. It paid
well and there was a huge shortage of talent.

Read an HTML book and take a course, and you're a junior developer. 12 months
later, granted you hadn't messed up too much, presto! You are now a senior
developer.

The party didn't last however, and now, Pakistan and India are high risk
countries to outsource to, main reason being this dilution of the talent pool
(while you of course can find incredibly talented developers in these
countries, it is exceedingly hard).

That probably won't happen to the same degree in the US, but the jobs of
hiring managers and young entrepreneurs (who are often inexperienced with
qualifying candidates) are certainly not getting easier.

------
justinelof
I'm a recent grad of General Assembly's program, had a good experience, and
would definitely recommend a bootcamp for some other people looking to learn
quickly.

I totally understand where you are coming from. I really respect the open and
helpful culture of the developer community and want to give back without
expecting any money. I had tried to learn on my own for awhile but was never
able to dedicate the time needed to get to the next level. The course gave me
that opportunity and set me up to be able to continue to learn. That said I
wouldn't recommend it for everyone, just like I wouldn't recommend college for
everyone.

------
glanotte
I recently met a graduate from dev bootcamp in Chicago. I had an opportunity
to talk about various coding subjects. Was he a junior? Yes. However, he had a
grasp of good design patterns, best practices and most importantly he had a
desire to learn - I mean this guy was a sponge.

I realize that I have a sample set of one, but based upon my interactions with
him, I would say that this isn't a scam. It appears to give aspiring
developers a very solid foundation to base a career on and dismisses them with
realistic expectations.

I also don't see the fault in someone offering a course and charging for it.
If people have the money and are willing to spend it on this, then I think
there is value in what they offer. I have someone that I mentor, but I feel
like these programs would definitely speed up the learning process. I wish he
could afford a program like these, he would surely benefit from the breadth of
knowledge offered.

~~~
gorbachev
I've had an exact opposite experience. The couple of people I've interviewed
who had graduated from a dev bootcamp of some sorts (I don't remember exactly
which one any more) had really poor understanding of software engineering
principles and only seemed to really know how to use Ruby on Rails for
building relatively simple web applications under heavy supervision.

Maybe the program they went to was a poor one, or they didn't have programming
talent, but there's no way we could've hired those folks to do any work for
us.

Obviously my sample size is really small as well.

It's encouraging to read comments on this thread mentioning positive
experiences though. I think when well run by competent mentors/teachers, these
things are very useful for all concerned.

------
codefeller
Is your impression of the content included in these developer camps based on
personal experience? interviewing graduates? Or does this article only
represent what you think that these camps are all about?

------
cpilegard
I graduated from Dev Bootcamp in SF this summer. I think the author of this
article shares the sentiment of a lot of working or university-educated
programmers who see it from the outside. But, the article is quite misinformed
and, to be clear, lacks any factual claims to how well or poorly bootcamp
graduates are performing in the real world.

Yes, there are wide claims from these bootcamps about $80k+ jobs waiting for
people _if only they take this course_! Naturally, that's great for business,
and turns out to be quite true judging from talking to alumni and people
graduating from my own cohort. The problem with that, which Shereef (the
founder of Dev Bootcamp) tries to get across to the students, is that there is
a risk for students to become spectators, to feel like they can just get
through the 9 weeks and be entitled to a well-paying job.

A lot of the process is getting you to combat that attitude and turn you into
a world-class learner. That's also helped by a selective interview process,
and they seem to be doing a good job at getting the most enthusiastic students
aboard. What the teachers strive for at DBC is to create an ideal learning
environment. It's hands-on and project-based rather than lecture-based, and,
to reiterate the point, what one learns there more than anything is how to
learn. We also have a whole lot of fun.

It's not for everyone, of course, but for people in certain situations it can
be great. My goal was not necessarily to become a web developer, but to break
into the software engineering field without a relevant degree or portfolio is
a tall order, and I was able to make several projects at DBC that filled up
the latter. Not masterpieces by any means, but not "shitty websites" as the
author of the article purports. My team's final project used a lot more
technologies than just Rails and Javascript (we used Solr, Redis, and several
APIs for various tasks).

Two months now after I've graduated, I'm not only working, but using Java,
Python, AWS, Linux, and more technologies day-to-day. We didn't use any of
those at DBC but I've been able to pick them up quite quickly in part because
of learning strategies we developed there. I am probably an outlier in that
regard though, as it seems most people getting hired out of DBC are getting
jobs doing Rails or front-end work. But not everyone will land a programming
job, and some don't wish to.

The best piece of advice I can give to someone looking in to a bootcamp is
this: Don't do it if you just want a job and are excited by the salary
prospects and opportunites. Do it because you can't help yourself from being a
programmer, solving problems relentlessly is something you love, and you want
a way to collaboratively kickstart your learning in a great environment.

