
Why I Turned Down A $20,000/Year Client - Jacquesvh
http://creativeoverflow.net/why-i-turned-down-a-20000year-client/
======
petercooper
I worked away as a (very) low earning freelancer for several years after the
dot com bust so I'm only knowledgable in hindsight, but.. _She complained
about my fee – constantly_ is the #1 indicator that a client will ultimately
be a huge pain in the ass you shouldn't have taken on, in my experience.

For a client to "negotiate" early on or from contract to contract is wise and
can form the basis of a healthy client/vendor relationship, but _complaints_
are indicative of someone who's happy to see and treat you like a cog in their
machine.

~~~
dasil003
> _but complaints are indicative of someone who 's happy to see and treat you
> like a cog in their machine._

... a cog in their slipshod, sand-in-the-gears, barely-operational machine in
most cases.

~~~
djKianoosh
A client that pays on time and, even better, via direct deposit, and doesn't
complain or question you every month feels soooo much more professional. They
give you a sense of great stability (financial and psychological). These are
great partners, not just clients.

~~~
Amadou
Yikes. I don't know if you are in the US or not, but in the US "direct
deposit" means the depositor has both deposit and withdrawal rights
(ostensibly to let them self-correct any deposit errors).

I would never permit a client that level of access to my bank account, not
even for just a deposit-only account which automatically sweeps all funds to
another account. To me, that level of interconnectedness says "employer" not
"client."

~~~
StavrosK
In Europe, direct deposits are the norm (they're how you get money into
people's accounts), and they have deposit-only rights.

------
mark_l_watson
Article made a good point: $20K per year is a good client, but a low paying
job. I have thankfully just had a few customers who expected me to always be
available, and to turn things around on very short notice, all the time.

The issue is fairness to all customers and except for emergencies allocate
large blocks of time, in advance, to each customer and don't interrupt
thinking time for one customer by talking to another. In other words, if you
are like me and like to work in intense 1 to 2 hour sprints without
interruptions, customers who hire me should understand that it might take a
few hours to get back to them for non-emergencies.

One sign of a good customer: when they know they are going to have a crunch
and ask if they can pay extra for getting "always on" service for a while.

------
lmm
> I very rarely miss a family dinner, and I almost never work on the weekends.
> These are the perks of working for one’s self.

You don't have to work for yourself to do that; indeed I'd think it's a bigger
risk when freelancing.

I have a conventional job; my boss and I both know what my hours are (they're
written in my contract). I'd never miss an arranged dinner or work a weekend;
I'd be amazed and somewhat insulted to even be asked. Is this really something
normal over in the US?

~~~
jakejake
I think there is a perception of working all the time in the US that isn't
entirely true. For one thing people overstate that they're "working like a
dog" because it implies some kind of importance.

But, as far as actual working hours, most people I know in IT work a pretty
standard 40 hour week. Occasionally they might log in from home for an hour or
two, here and there, if they need to catch up. Infrequently (like once or
twice per year max) there may be a major release or update that required a
week or two of working long hours. That can sometimes be due to slacking off
at the beginning of the release phase, or just overly optimistic planning.
Generally after a big push like that everybody will take a break and coast for
a while or take a few days off.

That's my personal observation of my own team and about 5 or 10 others that I
know.

When freelancing though, I felt like I never stopped working!

~~~
jakejake
I should add, these are mostly stable companies - not startups fighting for
their survival. Generally the larger the company the more stable the hours is
my observation.

~~~
__--__
I'm not sure I'd agree with that. With the exception of the one job I had in
the games industry, the mid sized startups I've worked for gave me the best
work/life balance and stable hours. The crazy hours of a young, small startup
are well documented, but I also have a friend who works for IBM who has
survived several layoffs over the last decade. He managed that because as they
downsize his group, he picks up the slack. That often means working 80-100
hour weeks. He does this for years at a time, until he moves departments. Then
he repeats the process all over again.

Maybe the sweet spot is mid-sized startups before they grow out of control and
large companies who never seem to downsize? Those two situations never seem to
last for more than a few years.

------
jiggy2011
I don't see it as a big problem to change plans somewhat at the start of a
project, this is certainly better than doing it half way through. As long as
it's not a strategy to get a contractor to do extra work for free.

If you are charging a higher rate, part of the value associated with that is a
certain degree of flexibility.

Also don't see the problem with the client wanting a cell number, if you don't
want calls on your personal phone just get a cheap second phone + SIM for
business. Make it clear which hours you will be available, put the phone on
silent during family time and check voicemail periodically. I would be
sceptical of giving somebody $20K who won't give me a "real" phone number.

I always find that speaking to somebody on the phone or in person regularly
leads to a much better long term working relationship than simply email or IM.
It's much easier to trust someone when you can associate them with a face or
voice.

~~~
JohnTHaller
A higher rate is commensurate with a higher end product. It does not give the
client license to change the scope of the project every other day.

Cell phones are for emergency access (the site is down, etc) and only given in
specific situations for specific rates. That does not sound like the case
here. The client was given a phone number that would go to his cell at
specific times which was more than sufficient.

Having regular phone contact is perfectly fine and can be scheduled for
regular meetings. Weekly status meetings on ongoing work. Pre and post-launch
meetings for specific milestones. Things like that. A client that wants
license to call your cell whenever they think of a random bit of information
instead of sending it in an email or saving it for a scheduled phone meeting
(or scheduling one specifically for it) is not a client you want to have. They
clearly don't value your time or the fact that you have other clients and
responsibilities.

~~~
jiggy2011
A higher end product will be something that fits requirements well, and
sometimes those requirements will change; better to get those changes out of
the way to the extent possible before you have written any code.

I agree that giving a personal number and letting people call you at any time
should not be necessary but having a business number and email are fairly
standard if you are a full time contractor.

~~~
codecool
I am also in favor of getting requirements change in the start but the client
should be willing to renegotiate if they change the scope too much.

------
tptacek
The core problem I see this consultant facing is that they're doing business
with an individual person and not with a business. Take people out to dinner.
But do business with their companies.

~~~
snorkel
Good point, but even when the client is a company you're usually only
interfacing with one or two people, either of whom can be high maintenance.

Bottom line is customers suck. You're either a people person who enjoys the
challenge of turning customer frowns into smiles, or arrange your business to
minimize direct contact with customers.

~~~
tptacek
The key difference between working for an annoying employee of a company and
working for an annoying person is that the annoying employee isn't spending
their own money. Both the spend and the return on spending are (usually)
abstractions to employees. They're all too vivid to sole proprietors.

------
mgkimsal
"She complained about my fee – constantly"

This is generally a sign that the person you're working with is paying
directly from their own pocket, or the business is so small it feels like the
equivalent of paying out of their own pocket, even if it's not technically.

I've had _some_ mid sized clients that were still concerned about fee size -
and they were family-owned/run. I'm not suggesting people _shouldn 't_ be
concerned about a fee at all - they want to know they're getting more value
than they're shelling out. It's a valid concern, but should be just one of
many factors, and judging by hourly rate alone is a poor measuring stick (but
one which few people can get past).

#1 I had someone call me up frantic because their site was broken. I didn't
have the time to fix it right then, but _emailed back instructions_ on how to
fix it. I said "give this to your web team" (they _had_ at least 2 JS
developers on staff who had _created_ the bug in the first place), but 7 hours
later I got an even more frantic call to 'just fix it'.

I fixed it, sent an invoice for $200, and got back to my work in 15 minutes. I
got a check in the mail the next week. They didn't particularly care what the
price was. If I'd sent an invoice for $2k, possibly, but I probably could have
said $500 and it still would have been paid. It wasn't that person's money -
it was just a problem that needed to be solved, and there was money in the
budget to do it.

#2 - had a prospective client complain about their current dev/tech guy, who
kept fighting/arguing that some of the requested features couldn't be done,
because they're not possible or they'd be too slow. I did a demo in an hour
outlining exactly how to do it, what tech to use, how to set it up, and what
the code would look like. And still got pushback on my fee, because hourly I'm
about 6x what they're paying the other guy, but they only feel comfortable
paying 2-3x the current rate. And I'm trying to get across to them that while
I have an hourly (and daily, and weekly) rate, the bigger measure is - how
fast is stuff getting done. I've been tempted to offer a project quote, but
I've watched the project from afar for several months and it's felt like too
many pivots to be stable enough to provide a flat rate quote.

#1 didn't complain at all - provided value, they saved face with their client,
and I made $200 in 15 minutes.

#2 spending effectively their own money (or borrowed money) and are cautious
about every penny. Again, not that they shouldn't be, but it's much harder
dealing with this sort of client.

------
lesterbuck
The second and third issues are serious. I read the first issue, being
indecisive, as a cry for help from client to professional. After the first
scope change on the first day, I'd do my professional duty and inquire if they
might want to engage me to determine what they really needed, at 10% or
whatever of the estimated project cost. In fact, wouldn't this have been
obvious from discussions with the client before the freelancer's bid was
accepted? If we abdicate our responsibility to guide the customer to make good
choices using our skills and experience, then we often get indecisive clients.
Otherwise we are reduced to glorified order takers. For example, if we got the
RFP specs and are chatting with the client as we prepared our response, it is
perfectly valid to ask them how they arrived at these requirements. If they
tell us that they had engaged a brand consultant who laid out a multistep plan
that they were now executing on, that is one thing. If they tell us that they
decided to issue the RFP on the drive into work this morning, that's another.
Is it that hard to detect that major scope changes are in the offing before
submitting a proposal?

------
joering2
I would love to read what happened next: his resignation letter and her
response. Did she try to change the rules? Did he give her a reasonable list
of "why"? Did she ever get nasty with him. What happened next??

------
auctiontheory
Good points, but seemed a bit misogynistic. Maybe it was the pictures.

~~~
Dewie
How did the pictures betray a contempt for women?

~~~
nobodysfool
The whole article used the pronoun "she". Several pictures of women
complaining or generally in a bad mood. I removed the pictures and ads first
thing when visiting that site. Talk about a "client" not a "gender". When you
use the word "she" you are referring to a person's gender, not that person.
Since we had no idea who "she" was, other than "some client" it may have been
more appropriate to call her "Penny" or some other such name (to protect the
identity of said person).

~~~
rantanplan
We can also butcher the english language even more! For example, why betray
the fact that the client was human? He could just use "it", or "a living
organism". I mean sticking to the actual facts? The nerve of some people!

In other news "she" will be replaced by "Penny", anywhere, ever. And the world
will be a better place.

------
OldSchool
100% Kudos. Refusing to take on an adverse relationship is a sign of maturity
in business. If you manage your own finances well - saving, and not taking on
unnecessarily large recurring expenses - your life will be happier one overall
because you'll be able to say "no" when you should.

------
alance
Why not just make it non-gender specific? The female pronouns and imagery
really distracts.

~~~
altero
How? By using 'he' instead of 'she'?

~~~
klearvue
It's only acceptable to use "she" if the character in question is positive.
Using "she" or stock photos depicting females to refer to a negative character
is sexist.

~~~
rantanplan
I hope that you're speaking tongue in cheek. I mean, I am almost sure you are,
but in the past few years the Internet has made my eyes rolling with all the
silly code of conducts and special rules.

We seriously have jumped the shark as a species with this stuff. I'm hoping
it's just the latest fad of the politically correct "party".

------
patja
Totally tangential: I'm curious as to why the author included Shutterstock
attribution links on all of the images.

Is the author getting some deal where they get images for free if they supply
an attribution link?

~~~
DavidAdams
Shutterstock has a blogger program wherein blogs and news websites get free
use of their catalog of stock photography in exchange for attribution.

------
hardwaresofton
Almost unrelated -- the iframes that contain ads on the right side of your
page need to either be made a little bigger to avoid the scrollbars that are
popping up, or you need to do some CSS tweaks.

------
Spooky23
I guess my attitude here would depend on my pipeline. $20k of freelance work
doesn't sound like chicken feed. I'd probably put up with a certain amount of
bullshit if they pay in time.

------
pbreit
Site looks like a content farm to me, complete with lousy advertising.

------
benmorris
Smart move in my opinion I've faced some of the same decisions .

------
rorrr2
I don't understand why you call it $20K/year. Isn't it $20K/project?

$20K/year is lower than what most programmer interns/entry make these days.

~~~
tptacek
No, it's 20k/yr. When you run a consulting business, you value clients by the
revenue they'll generate every year. Obviously, you have lots of clients.

~~~
rorrr2
So how does that work? They hire you for a year, pay you 20K, and how many
hours/week do they expect to get (is that in the contract)?

I do consulting myself, and I've never heard of such a strange arrangement.

~~~
jiggy2011
Often it will be for work that is estimated to be delivered in one year, which
may be full time or not. Or the project might be delivered in under 1 year the
contract includes support for a longer period.

~~~
rorrr2
You just described a per project contract that's supposed to be delivered in
under a year. There's nothing in your description that says you're supposed to
work for the whole year. You can finish it in one day.

~~~
tptacek
Nobody said anything about delivery constraints. 20k/yr is a sales figure.

------
deadreturns
Did anyone else notice sexism?

