
The increasingly long lives of old Macs - chris-at
http://www.macworld.com/article/2971085/macbooks/the-increasingly-long-lives-of-old-macs.html#tk.rss_all
======
rsync
2009 octo mac pro with only 8 GB of ram ... still using it daily for all
rsync.net work related duties (which includes at least 2 vmware fusion VMs
running at all times). Works perfectly. Is fast. Runs snow leopard without a
hitch.

2008 Macbook air was in (hard) daily use and travel from end of 2008 to
beginning of 2015. Would still be using it if not for 2 GB of RAM becoming
insufficient for a browser with many open tabs.

I've owned a lot of computers of many different form factors and it's hard to
think of anything that comes close in terms of physical design and durability.
_Maybe_ SGI workstations from the Octane2/Tezro years ... and current model
supermicro rackmount servers.

I'm worried, however ... the new 12" macbook with a _single_ port (which gets
used up by the power adaptor) is a fatal flaw. I've wanted a retina MBA for
years now and now that there is one, there is no way I can use it. I predict
buying a max-spec 11" MBA[1] just before they go out of production and using
that for many years.

[1] with two full-sized USB ports in addition to thunderbolt.

EDIT: also, I haven't checked recently, but I _think_ there now exists a
_bootable_ PCIe SSD for 2009 Mac Pros ... which means if I max out my ram and
switch to PCIe SSD I could very easily run this Mac Pro for _another five
years_. I think there is a 4k capable video card available for it and the lack
of fast SATA is obviated by the pcie SSD ... really the only thing missing
would be USB3, but I can live without that...

~~~
ojbyrne
My wife just got the new macbook and freaking loves it. I have not heard a
single complaint about the single port. She uses an adapter for the rare case
where she needs to plug anything additional in.

Her biggest complaint is she sometimes forgets whether she has it in her bag
or not because there is so little weight difference either way.

~~~
rsync
I have an almost daily use-case of USB modem and AC power simultaneously.

AFAIK there are not any USB modems in the new USB form factor. I haven't
looked at what the adaptor chain looks like for "old USB and power at the same
time" ... what does that look like ?

I think a single USB port on the new 12" is designed to be flawed. Apple
_knows_ these things last 5+ years so the second release of the 12" will have
a second USB port on the other side and X% of folks will re-buy that to remove
the original flaw. That's one way to combat hardware that lasts "too long".

~~~
ggreer
I have a 12" MacBook and I don't think Apple will ever add a second USB-C port
to it. There simply isn't space. From my review[1]:

> Remember, the keyboard abuts the side. The only areas where ports wouldn’t
> intersect with the keyboard are already taken: USB-C on the left, headphone
> jack on the right. Adding another USB-C port would require sacrificing the
> headphone jack. I doubt that will happen any time soon.

Apple's solution is to sell an adapter that lets you charge and use USB[2].
Not pretty, but fewer peripherals need wires these days. Heck, I use the
MacBook as my primary dev machine and the only adapter I use is for my
Yubikey.

1\. [http://geoff.greer.fm/2015/04/19/2015-macbook-
review/](http://geoff.greer.fm/2015/04/19/2015-macbook-review/)

2\. [http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MJ1K2AM/A/usb-c-digital-
av...](http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MJ1K2AM/A/usb-c-digital-av-multiport-
adapter)

~~~
rsync
Thanks for your answer, but I don't understand ...

The keyboard appears to abut both sides equally ... so while there may be an
internal component in the _current_ iteration that takes up internal space,
it's not the external footprint of the keyboard that is determining port or
no-port.

Perhaps I am missing something ? Genuinely curious...

~~~
ggreer
The keyboard has depth from mechanical linkages, sensors, and a frame to mount
everything on. It's also recessed so it doesn't touch the screen when closed.
See a teardown for the exact details. Since the keyboard can't be made any
thinner, the only way to add more ports would be to make the laptop wider or
thicker. Neither is going to happen.

~~~
rsync
Then how do they have the port on the left hand side ?

What I am saying is, the laptop (and the keyboard) are symmetrical left to
right ... so if they can squeeze the port in on the left side, they should be
able to squeeze an identical port in on the right side.

~~~
ggreer
The headphone port is on the right. With the current form factor, there isn't
room for both a headphone port and a USB-C port on one side. I said as much
originally:

> Adding another USB-C port would require sacrificing the headphone jack.

Have you seen a MacBook in person? As soon as I did, I found this quite
apparent.

------
leviathant
Adorable! I've got a Dell E1505 laptop that I bought refurbished in mid-2006
for $650 that is currently running Windows 10. The biggest bottleneck was the
hard drive, which I'd swap out to an SSD if I really intended to give it any
heavy use. The Dell came with XP, I upgraded to the Windows 7 preview and let
it sit, upgraded to the Windows 8 preview and let it sit, upgraded to the
Windows 10 preview, and now it has full-fledged Windows 10 - so I ended up
with a completely free OS upgrade path, too.

You can't run new Mac operating systems on old hardware, and for a few
iterations now, you can't upgrade Mac laptop hardware. That's great that the
writer thinks functioning computer hardware from 2008 is old, and that Apple
hardware is that much better than alternatives. Working for a company where
everyone's on Macbook pros (myself included since last August), the reality of
Apple hardware reliability is quite different than what articles like this
project.

~~~
gambiter
> You can't run new Mac operating systems on old hardware

Uhm.. aside from when OSX began requiring a 64bit CPU, what are you talking
about? I have a 2008 Macbook Pro and it's happily running Yosemite with no
issues. Sure, it's slower than modern hardware, but not overly so.

~~~
leviathant
I apologize, I should have been more specific - OS X operates on post-PowerPC
Apple hardware just fine up until the 64-bit requirement, but Windows 10 runs
on hardware dating as far back as 2003 - see
[http://www.techradar.com/us/news/software/operating-
systems/...](http://www.techradar.com/us/news/software/operating-systems/you-
don-t-need-a-crazy-powerful-pc-to-run-windows-10-here-s-the-proof-1288287) for
specs.

~~~
gambiter
So then, to extend your original comment... "You also can't run new Windows
operating systems on old hardware."

There's going to be some point where old hardware will cease to run the latest
OS... wherever the OS makers decide to draw the line, the line WILL exist, so
it's not a valid argument for or against, it's just... a fact.

------
gregwtmtno
I think this article is a little misleading. I'm running a 2010 Macbook Pro
that still works great. But the only reason I'm able to do so is because of
its upgradability. Over its life, I doubled the ram and swapped in an SSD.

The Macbook Pros sold today do not allow HD upgrades. (I'm not sure about
ram.) I doubt they will last as long as my current one has.

~~~
aspratley
I think this is a common path for MBPs of the same age. I've got a 2009 model
and upgraded the HD to SSD and memory a couple of times. The processor can
feel a little sluggish but it still handles what I need it to. But that's not
really special to macs. Hardware just got to the point where it was mostly
good enough. Not being able to upgrade the new MBPs does make me think twice.
Either I fully load it and pay the premium or risk feeling I need more of XYZ
later.

Something I do like about my MBP, even after quite a few years of abuse it
still looks in decent shape. The case, screen hinge and keyboard all still
feel solid. Which is where lots of other laptops seem to fall apart. Though
the battery and trackpad have seen better days. Something nice about macs is
they are usually serviceable for quite some time, either via Apple or third
parties - I needed a new power adapter recently and could walk into a shop and
get a new one there and then. Trying to track down power adapters etc for
short lived models from other manufacturers can often be a pain.

All in all I don't think it's anything magic about macs. If you bought a
similarly specd and built machine from someone else you'd be in the same
position.

------
jff
My current daily work machine is a Thinkpad X61; according to the corporate
property tracking system, it was acquired in October of 2007. It's never been
upgraded, but with a dual-core 64-bit processor and 4 GB of RAM I can run most
things I need and even start up a VM if necessary. I've been using it for
several weeks now because I don't have a proper desk at my new location yet.

There's nothing magical about a Mac, you just have to pick something
comparable instead of a $300 Best Buy HP.

~~~
rsync
I sort of agree with this, except ... there _is_ something magical about
unibody metal construction. By anyone.

I don't understand why nobody else can make this leap ... it's a tremendous
step forward in look, feel and function.

I don't have any particular affinity for apple, but there is no way I am ever
buying a plastic computer again.

~~~
karmakaze
For those saying it's not unique to Mac. The Unibody pricing _is_ one key
factor that makes a portable device that doesn't fall apart at the seams and
internal connections.

------
brudgers
It's not a unique property of Macs. I've got the cheapest laptop I could buy
in August 2001, a Toshiba that still runs...and runs fine with Wary Puppy or
Win2k despite it's CopperMine 800mhz Celeron for many tasks. I've got a Dell
workstation from 2008 that still has more cores than I can light up unless I
try...and this Thinkpad, bought used, is 2010 vintage.

Computers tend not to go bad. Instead, jumping on the feature bandwagon that
drives the product line model to profitability makes us feel that 800 million
cycles per second is useless. In the early aughts, out in my garage I had
bootlegged Windows Advanced Server running on a 40mhz 486DX2 with 8 megs of
RAM full time to serve up the occasional file off the 340meg disk.

~~~
bane
heck, I still drag around an old 2005/06 era 8.9" netbook I picked up for
$300. It's tiny, gets on the internet ok, can connect to an external
monitor/kb/mouse to turn into an impromptu desktop in a pinch, has a 250GB HD
and two SD card slot so I use it to offload photos from my sd card at the end
of a shooting day while out traveling and the other slot lets me expand the
storage if I need.

I can use it to review my photos from the day and do some minor edits with
gimp.

Bonus, it's about fast enough to run dosbox or scummvm and play standard def
movies in vlc well enough. I can even emulate a Sega Genesis and hook up a
controller and use it as a mini console.

It's been around the world with me many times, fits into the space a large
paperback book would take. It's not "modern" by any stretch, is pretty beat
up, but the large cheap storage device that happens to be a computer is very
hard to come by these days. I've seen some newer devices with better specs,
but they all insist on tiny SSDs, like 32GB drives, so they're an instant no-
go.

~~~
kbenson
32GB with a couple different SD cards for different use cases would probably
work well. They've got 256GB SD cards now, so you could even just get one for
all your needs.

I miss my netbook, which was terrible by current standards, I made it work as
a dev machine for a couple months while in-between workstations at home. It
wasn't ideal, but it also wasn't as bad as I would have thought. I'm sure it
would still see use if my son hadn't somehow destroyed the screen.

------
cptskippy
Every version of OS X prior to Tiger (2012) dropped support for something
(e.g. x86, PowerPC, G4s, G3s, !Firewire etc). Every version of OS X since
Tiger has supported Macs as far back as 2009. The only systems supported prior
2009 by post Tiger OS X are the Core 2 Duo units were only in the high-end. If
you happened to buy an x86 ( not x64) Mac then you got upgraded once from
Leopard to Snow Leopard and that was it. iOS has even spottier support for
hardware with older versions dropped at almost every release.

The reason for this period of longevity isn't that Apple dedicated itself to
supporting these legacy systems, that's a decidedly unApple thing to do. When
Apple adopts a new technology that changes something fundamental about their
operating system (e.g. PPC->x86, 32bit->64bit), they dump support for legacy
systems in 1 or 2 versions. The reason for this long period of stability is
that hardware performance reached a plateau and the focus shifted towards
smaller and lighter systems with increasingly longer lasting batteries.

Let's also remember that if you counted up every Apple Mac regardless of OS,
they would account for less of the PC market than the number of machines
running Windows XP (a 14 year old OS that Microsoft still supports). Or that
Microsoft Windows 10 can run on any x86 or x64 CPU 1Ghz with 1GB RAM made in
the last 15 years.

~~~
Decade
Windows 10 on any x86 since 2000? Not true. Windows 10 requires PAE, NX, and
SSE2; and 64-bit additionally requires CMPXCHG16b, PrefetchW, and LAHF/SAHF.

In practice, this means Athlon64 (2003) or Prescott Pentium 4 (2004) or VIA C7
(2005) or later, minus some models due to Intel's insane market segmentation
policy or driver issues.

Full 64-bit Windows requires a CPU from about 2006. After spending way too
much time looking, I'm still not sure which ones.

~~~
cptskippy
Good to know, the specifications pages just indicate a 1Ghz processor.

------
jgrahamc
I have and use a 2006 MacBook Pro 17" which Apple treats in a bizarre way.
Latest version of Mac OS X works on it fine as do things like Photos (which
sucks but that's another story) and iTunes.

But they don't support the hardware. It is considered (their word): obsolete.
The battery died long ago (Apple actually replaced it once years ago when it
swelled up) and needs replacing (the replacement battery also swelled up) and
they won't replace it.

~~~
jakobegger
I also have a MacBook Pro 17" with a swollen battery (a bit newer though:
early 2009)

Did you try having the battery fixed by a 3rd party? I remember a few years
ago I mailed a broken Powerbook battery to some guy who replaced the cells. I
think it was a a NiMH battery, but maybe it works with lithium-ion batteries
as well?

------
nemo44x
My parents still use an old G4 tower of mine I got in 1999/2000\. They mainly
use an iPad but they use it from time to time for accounting things and basic
tasks an iPad can't handle.

Honestly, the case is still unbelievably cool looking. I want it when they
eventually decide to get rid of it.

------
jseliger
_Good for you, good for me, good for America_

In some ways this is good, but in others—a la Peter Thiel in _Zero to One_
[1]—it isn't: if so many computers are "good enough," that indicates that
innovation in the sector has slowed and that many people don't find the newer
models compelling.

Another reading could be, "No killer apps take advantage of much faster
processors and interconnects."

[1] My thoughts: [http://jakeseliger.com/2014/09/24/zero-to-one-peter-thiel-
an...](http://jakeseliger.com/2014/09/24/zero-to-one-peter-thiel-and-blake-
masters).

~~~
toxican
>"No killer apps take advantage of much faster processors and interconnects."

This is what keeps me from upgrading my phone (a 5s). I don't need a larger
screen, and everything else is an increase in hardware performance. Okay, so
the OS will be a little bit more zippy, but I've yet to run into an app or
game that runs sluggish or won't run at all. There's nothing there that
compels me to upgrade. Shy of this phone breaking, I don't see myself
upgrading for a few more years. And judging by how many times I've dropped my
phone on a hard surface with nothing but a few scratches/dents in the metal
backing, I don't see that happening any time soon.

As for computers, were it not for gaming I'd probably still be using a machine
I built in 2008. It was a dual core with 8GB RAM and an 8800 Ultra GPU. Then
again it was built for the purpose of gaming, so of course it's going to have
extra good hardware meant to last years. Nothing else I use my computer for is
hardware-intensive enough to justify an upgrade.

And I'd imagine were it not for the tech un-savvy buying super cheap, under-
powered machines that they promptly bog down with viruses, not many people
would have a need to upgrade their compueters since all they do is use a
browser and Office

------
nickhalfasleep
One of the reasons I think is the magsafe connectors. I have recycled a stack
of other laptops where the power port (and PCB underneath) were ground up from
the inherit abuse and prybar leverage of a traditional connector.

~~~
alistairSH
I hate that they ditched it on the new 12". Seems like a step back. With a
personal laptop that lives in the living room and dogs in the house, the
MagSafe has saved many a fall from the sofa or side-table onto the ground.

~~~
cptskippy
It didn't save my wife's from being yanked on the floor. The newer Airs are so
light that the force to pull them off some surfaces is less than what's
required to break the magsafe connection.

------
enlightenedfool
"If you look at the system requirements for the upcoming OS X El Capitan, for
example, you’ll see that it’ll run on computers as old as a mid–2007 iMac.
More to the point, you’ll notice that those requirements are unchanged from
its predecessor, Yosemite". Wrong. I updated my 2007 iMac to Yosemite and it
was unusable. Each clicks takes seconds to respond. That is after I added RAM.
I replaced it with Mint which works just fine. While hardware is durable,
their system requirements are misleading.

~~~
jinushaun
My 2007 iMac runs Yosemite fine. Yosemite has bugs, but I don't think it's the
hardware. That's why I'm liking forward to the stability release, El Capitan.

------
Kluny
I got a white MacBook in 2006. My school bought it for me because they had to
burn some money budgeted for disabled students (I'm deaf) and I was doing a
correspondence course that required a computer. I bought it off the school
minus depreciation when I graduated and used it for several more years. When I
upgraded in 2011, I gave the white MacBook to my brother, who is still using
it to this day. I replaced the ram, battery, hard drive and power cord
(twice). The trackpad and screen hinge are a bit tired. But as a
netflix/email/facebook machine, it's still providing my brother with reliable
service after 9 years. I'm awestruck. Neither my brother or I is particularly
gentle with our electronics, either.

The 2011 MacBook Pro is also still running fine.

~~~
rancur
you can get the same life out of a Windows machine if you don't install
updates and don't install shady executables.

~~~
cptskippy
I have a couple netbooks with the latest Windows 7 patches and they run just
as bad as they did when I first got them with Windows XP. I've been debating
upgrading them to Windows 10...

~~~
rancur
try 7 RTM without updates and Opera browser. that was my only config that
worked just barely

------
gambiting
I've got a free mac from a friend who upgraded to a latest retina model - it
was a 2009 Core2Duo 15" MacBook Pro. I've put a 128GB SSD in(cheapest kingston
one), bought a new charger, cleaned it throughout and it works perfectly well.
It's really impressive.

------
Jun8
At our company we are normally not allowed to order Mac laptops. An argument
similar to the one in this post while pointing to my 2007 MBP that I was still
using convinced my manager to shell out the extra $500 or so compared to the
crappy HP laptop last year.

~~~
cptskippy
It's not that Macs last longer than PCs or are somehow more robust, most
$1000+ machines will last longer than $500 machines.

My Lenovo W510 benchmarks the same or better than the T430s they're handing
out now at my office. The only reason I have to upgrade is that I'd like a
battery that last longer than the walk from 1 meeting to the next.

~~~
Jun8
That was my point: they _do_ last longer. Our preferred laptop was around
$2,200 and the MBP came to around $2,800 (including Apple support) so they
were both high end laptops. However, my colleagues who got the HPs two years
ago already have had keyboard failures, characters on keys being rubbed off,
etc. Not to mention the horrible cheap plastic feeling throughout that I feel
after using a MBP for so long.

~~~
cptskippy
I think you're pigeon holing all PCs based on a bad experience with 1 brand.
That's like saying all gasoline cars are poor quality and you should only buy
electric cars based on a poor experience with GM.

------
bluedino
As a hobbyist I have always been frustrated with the price of used Macs, even
ones that weren't even usable anymore. I just wanted an old G3 or Quadra to
goof around on, and guy still wanted $600 for them. C'mon!

~~~
SyneRyder
Keep hunting around. I was able to get my "dream Mac" of 15 years ago (a
PowerBook Pismo G3 with max RAM) for just over $100. Still works fine and was
a nice separate screen for chat or distraction free writing with WriteRoom, at
least until Dropbox discontinued PPC support this year.

------
spinningarrow
The thing is that this is mostly anecdotal. I had a mid-2010 MacBook Pro and I
finally had to replace it at the end of last year after a whole year of
trouble with the hard disk - got the cable replaced first (which helped for a
while), then tried to put the HDD in the CD drive slot using an enclosure (so
I could use the CD drive port) but that failed after a while too. Seems like
the logic board is kaputt.

I did drop it a few times over the course of its life - that could've had an
impact (pun intended!) but that's difficult to say.

------
sosuke
I've been planning to replace my 2010 MacBook 13" for a few years. Each year
it keeps doing everything I need it too, and the new systems don't seem like
enough of a jump. I upgraded to 16gb of RAM and a 750gb hybrid drive. It hates
doing anything computationally intensive, my IDEs take another few
milliseconds to respond, but if I am patient it does everything I need.

I have no idea how long it will last at this point, I think it could be good
enough for a few more years. If I put in an SSD it would give it another life.

~~~
tibbon
Same here. My 2011 15" MBP is actually my fastest Mac by many regards. 2.4GHz
quad-core Intel Core i7 + pretty nice GPU. I think I put it at 16GB ram, and
installed an SSD. I still use it for all of my music stuff, and it doesn't
feel slower at all than my 2014 MBP 13" Retina. For what I do with it, I don't
see needing to change it at all.

------
taylodl
My daughter is using my old 2008 aluminum MacBook daily. I've replaced the
battery, swapped out the HDD for an SDD and bumped up the RAM from 2 Gb to 4
Gb. It's running Yosemite and everything is working great. Keeping my fingers
crossed we can get another 2-3 years out of this machine.

I had a 2006 MacBook that finally gave up the ghost a few months ago after
nine years of daily use.

Finally, I have an iPad 3 that's still going strong and running the latest
version of iOS.

I replace my iPhones every couple of years so I can't speak to their
longevity.

~~~
robin_reala
Although the original spec limited the 2008 alu Macbooks to 4Gb RAM one of the
post-release firmware updates upped that limit to 8Gb. Mine’s been running
fine with that, at least. Also, it’s on the support schedule for El Capitan.

------
werber
Half of the appeal of using a Mac for me is being able to sell and buy used
and keep up to what was up to date a year ago for >100$ annually.

------
buserror
Recently retired my early 2008 mac pro; replaced by... a hackintosh! I used to
use that machine as a linux workstation, but I've replaced /that/ by a bigger
one still.

And yeah, if there was a pro machine that wasn't ridiculous like the ashtray,
I'd buy one... Instead, it's the first time I don't own an apple machine since
the SE/30 days...

------
mozumder
Hah, I still use my 2003 PowerMac G5 Dual 2.5GHz every now and then.

The 30" Cinema Display I got with it is STILL my daily monitor, although I
generally hook it up to my MacBook Pro instead.

I can't believe how long they lasted, and the money I spent on them has been
absolutely worth it. A lot cheaper than spending $600 every 2 years on a new
system.

------
peterchon
I gave my kids an ipad 2 and it's been through 3 years of hell, but it still
works like a champ.

------
kawera
I still use my 1999 Powermac every week to drive my drum scanner, which
requires a proprietary card and OS9 drivers. Works flawlessly, with original
keyboard and mouse!

My other machines are a BTO 2010 Macbook Air and a 2011 Mac Mini with 16GB of
RAM and two SSDs.

------
petemc_
Using same 2008 macbook as article mentions with same upgrades, going great.
Same can't be said for all macbooks though, 2011 range springs to mind as
particularly prone to failure and the newer ones just don't feel as sturdy to
me.

------
kybernetyk
I still have a 2007 (or 08?) iMac in my office that I use to watch Netflix. I
just replaced the HDD with a SSD some years ago. The machine still runs great
on OS X 10.10.

The only thing that's a little off-putting is the screen's CFL backlight.

~~~
hollerith
Was the backlight always off-putting or did it become off-putting gradually
over the years?

If the former, can you describe what about the light is off-putting?

I ask because I'm interested in the aesthetics of lighting technologies.

------
rwhitman
I had an auto mechanic circa 5 years ago that ran his whole business from a
System 7 mac, I think it was a Quadra series. The thing was caked in garage
soot but seemed to be cranking along quite comfortably churning out estimates
etc.

------
erdojo
I have a Mac SE/30 FDHD (dual floppy) with external LaCie hard drive that
still works.

Not that it's useful but kind of fun to boot up every now and then.

------
heuermh
I have an original Apple Macintosh and 512Ke still in working order. Can't say
the same for most of the floppy disks.

------
1arity
Proud mid-2010 MacBook Pro here. Replaced the HD for a 700 Tb ( or Gb can't
recall ) for 30 USD. Replaced the top panel for FREE ( love Youth Apple in
Taiwan, they used glue on a dislodged key then owned the mistake when the
whole keyboard broke and replaced the whole top panel for FREE ). Everything
else awesome. Only thing missing is HandOff with my iPhone 5s ( damn old
bluetooth ).

------
rjsw
I'm using my Quadra 950 right now, just updating the OS.

