
Edward Snowden and Gen Y: a sign of leaks to come? - cstross
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/08/snowden-leaks-the-real-take-ho.html
======
nl
Assange's seldom mentioned manifesto[1] talks about the goal of making secrecy
impossible by making the secret systems either completely disconnected from
the real world, or so liable to leaking that they are no longer secret.

It's difficult imagining that goal being completely achieved, but it is
interesting how closely the Snowden story matched Assange's thoughts.

Note that Assange's writing is pretty.. umm.. _dense_. It is worth reading the
commentary at [2] at the same time.

This analysis is excellent:

 _[Assange] decides, instead, that the most effective way to attack this kind
of organization would be to make “leaks” a fundamental part of the
conspiracy’s information environment.... the idea is that increasing the
porousness of the conspiracy’s information system will impede its functioning,
that the conspiracy will turn against itself in self-defense, clamping down on
its own information flows in ways that will then impede its own cognitive
function. You destroy the conspiracy, in other words, by making it so paranoid
of itself that it can no longer conspire_

[1] [http://cryptome.org/0002/ja-
conspiracies.pdf](http://cryptome.org/0002/ja-conspiracies.pdf)

[2] [http://zunguzungu.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/julian-assange-
an...](http://zunguzungu.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/julian-assange-and-the-
computer-conspiracy-%E2%80%9Cto-destroy-this-invisible-government%E2%80%9D/)

~~~
cstross
Yup.

I note that Assange, aged 42, is a Gen-Xer.

(I left him out of the essay because (a) mentioning his name would invite
derailing discussion of other personality-related issues, and (b) his being an
X-er would obscure the key message in the closing paragraphs.)

~~~
in2liberty
First, I'm a big fan... but:

I'm struggling with why you don't open arms embrace the Gen-X / Gen Y's actual
attitude towards a government that can grab any of them and shame them into
compliance is the moral voting decision.

There is an actual synthesis available, the state collects all kinds of data,
but it cannot be used against its citizens.

Using any that data to help solve ANY domestic crime becomes the greater crime
- it is traitorous for any public employee to do so. We have a long legal
history or fruit of the poisoned tree, Gen X / Gen Y can simply ensure PRISM
and its ilk - we save and extend that, and harshly punish a few civil
servants.

Lesson taught.

Its similar to the militarization of the police. Why not expect and cheer Gen
Y / Gen X to say out loud, "we don't care if more cops die because they have
only a vest"?

Why not expect and cheer, the total destruction of the bureaucracy your work
pillories?

Why valorize the near criminal firm behavior the 40 year s and a watch
created?

I'm Gen X and I'm totally comfy with the idea of a state that has to rebuild
itself around 1M Snowdens ready to heroically crush state malfeasance for $,
fame, or patriotism.

It dawns on me you aren't a fan of Nassim Taleb.

I prefer my sci-fi writers to be dedicated libertarians. So maybe, if you
aren't, don't publicize it.

~~~
cstross
_I prefer my sci-fi writers to be dedicated libertarians. So maybe, if you
aren 't, don't publicize it._

Then you prefer to get your ideology and news pre-digested, do you?

(I reckon it's always a mistake to restrict your reading so that it conforms
to your own worldview.)

I'm not a libertarian. Libertarianism is a specifically American ideology that
can be pigeon-holed best as right-anarchism. I'm not American: I'm a leftist
with a strong attachment to social contracts, civil liberties, and freedom. If
it causes you to stop buying my books because it doesn't gel with your
preconception of what I ought to be, that's fine by me. But you _don 't_ get
to tell me not to talk about it.

~~~
lukifer
I've been tempted to try to coin the term "paleolibertarian": the original
meaning of the word was much more left-leaning.
[http://youtu.be/RxPUvQZ3rc](http://youtu.be/RxPUvQZ3rc)

I think there is an oppurtunity for a coalition between the far left and the
far right over civil liberties, if only we can "agree to disagree" on economic
theories until the rule of law under the Constitution has been restored.
(There's even a good brand hook built-in: the Green Tea Party.)

~~~
nl
To quote Charlie:

 _I 'm not American_

All this talk of "the Constitution" as though it is some kind of 100% correct
holy document handed down from on high to our superior ancestors is pretty
irrelevant in the rest of the world.

~~~
rmc
And countries with a constitution often change or reboot it. Not all countries
with a constitution view it as some holy sacred document that doesn't need
replacing. Ireland reset its constitution a few times, France is on like it's
"Fifth Republic" by now.

------
jacquesm
Employee-employer loyalty in situations like these is often substituted or at
least augmented by patriotism, the moral obligation to serve some conceptual
ideal that is presumably exhibited by the motherland.

Such motivations, especially when entrenched early in life can be quite
powerful. I think there is some truth to the fact that Gen X/Y members will be
harder to keep buttoned up when given secret clearances but it won't be quite
as hard as it would be without the patriotic angle.

What the probable response will be against these leaks is a change in hiring
practices (less reliance on subcontractors) and more thorough vetting
procedures.

Rather than, what we'd all like to see (huge assumption on my part there): a
more transparent and surgical use of these capabilities with _much_ better
oversight in place.

~~~
MarcScott
I think that patriotism is a very powerful motivation in the actions of
potential whistleblowers.

Previous generations had the Nazis and then the Soviets as the 'enemy' and
they were tangible opponents. Potential whistleblowers might have been able to
convince themselves that they were acting for the greater good, and kept
themselves quiet.

The new 'enemy' are the terrorists, and they are neither particularly tangible
or visible. It is not so easy to convince yourself you are acting for the
greater good in these circumstances.

In actuality, the reverse happens. Snowden's patriotism convinced him that the
actions of the NSA could not be justified as 'greater goods', and so he became
a whistleblower.

~~~
gaius
Isn't the saying, to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign _and
domestic_?

By rights the Marines should have been kicking the NSA's doors in.

~~~
mpyne
Why would the Marines do that though? The NSA is the ones telling them whose
doors to kick down in Iraq and Afghanistan, as opposed to the normal 2006
routine of getting blown up every convoy by an IED.

~~~
jacquesm
Funny they couldn't tell them Iraq did not have WMD when it mattered.

~~~
mpyne
I seem to recall that's exactly what the Intelligence Community _did_ tell the
Prez, was that the public claims were all out of proportion to what the intel
community knew, or even has hints at knowing. But of course Saddam threatened
his Poppy and off we went...

But just think of the bright side, if we accept as true the claims of those
using the Arab Spring erupting from Manning's diplomatic cable leaks, that
it's all worth it if we get more democracies in the end, then I suppose all's
well that ends well.

Mind, I don't personally agree with that but apparently I've been the idiot
here the whole time. :)

~~~
jacquesm
The 'Arab Spring' is called a bit early in my opinion, chances are that it
will be an Autumn.

Kicking the first stone of an avalanche downhill is easy but there is no way
of knowing when the stones will stop rolling and if the new configuration is a
favourable one and what the damage incurred along the way is.

------
hkarthik
While there is some truth to this article about the change in work culture,
there is a fundamental piece which isn't being addressed that makes me think
the government will be able to prevent leaks quickly.

Each successive post war generation has become increasingly complacent about
government abuses of power.

When the Snowden scandal came out, it felt like only 1 in 5 Gen-X/Gen-Yers
even seemed to care. Most of the people I talk to say things like the
following:

"Well if you're not doing anything wrong, why do you care that they are
monitoring us?"

"Of course they are monitoring everything, they have to do that since 9/11."

"Are you actually surprised they can read your Gmail and Facebook messages?"

~~~
RougeFemme
Without revealing my specific generation. . .and agreeing that these are
common responses. . .the first response makes me want to scream, the second
simply rubs me the wrong way.. .and I admit that the third is pretty close to
my initial reaction. As someone said humorously/saracastically. . .NCIS has
been one of the top-rated shows for about 10 years. Did you really think that
everything McGee does is fiction?

~~~
supergauntlet
I don't believe anyone well versed in technology was really surprised.

I didn't want to believe it initially as the proof seemed questionable at
first, but when it did become obvious that PRISM was real, I was less
surprised and more saddened.

~~~
hkarthik
Well I wasn't surprised that there were technical reasons they could do it,
but I was surprised at the number of companies that were found to be
complacent in the monitoring. It ran deeper than I ever expected.

------
rdtsc
Yes.

People in these position are selected for patriotism and devotion to their
country. That cuts both ways. If they manage to convince them that
government=country than whatever they are told they will listen and go to any
lengths to execute orders. Some realize what is going on but saying anything
would at best result in revocation of security clearance and loss of job, at
worst imprisonment. BUT the other side is, some people don't think
country=government. The see country=Constitution, country=citizens and so on.
A different ideal. A very very tiny proportion of those people will have balls
to come out and expose lies and shameful things hidden under the carpet at the
cost of heavy possible repercussions.

I am waiting and hoping for more Snowdens to show up.

------
bdg
To the side of the discussion at hand: I don't think anyone except 'Gen Xers'
call 'Gen Yers' as 'Gen Y'. That's not something we do. Ever.

~~~
mlwarren
I'm in the Gen Y bucket and I refer to people born in the mid to late 1980s
until the mid 1990s as Gen Y. I'm not sure if this range is appropriate or the
standard.

I've made the distinction between Gen Y and the Millennial as "people who
remember a time before computers were so ubiquitous" vs "people who have
always lived entrenched in technology".

------
normloman
The article makes sweeping generalizations about Gen X/Y based on just two
annecdotes (Snowden, Manning).

The author is eager to blame deregulation for the rise in leaks. But last I
checked, people still leaked documents before the 1970s.

Nice story. Simple, and reassuring. But complete BS.

~~~
canistr
In agreement with you on this one. Exceptions to the rule don't make it the
norm. In fact, people like Snowden and Manning are making it more difficult
for Gen Y's to work in environments such as theirs because they are viewed
cautiously by the people in power (Boomers).

~~~
normloman
I believe you made the same mistake as the article: Making sweeping
generalizations about people of a certain age group without empirical
evidence.

------
tokenadult
How well is this working in China? Is there the same generational effect there
as there is claimed to be in this essay in NATO countries? In particular, do
the intelligence services in China seem to be dead-end career paths for
ambitious young people there? Who is providing leaks from those?

(I ask, as a speaker of Chinese, because I like to reality-check statements
about invariant social trends cross-culturally.)

------
Shivetya
I would give credit to the internet to making issues more readily available
from a wide range of sources. Perhaps all generations now will get a full
understanding of how invasive government is in their lives and just how far it
has drifted from its intent.

It would be a great disservice to focus just on intelligence agencies, all
agencies of the government with their access to vast amounts of data should be
subject to extra scrutiny. Not only does the NSA and FBI combined with the
FISA courts pose a threat to the privacy if not freedom of Americans and
others, the IRS has elements within it that show a disregard for expression of
free speech. Combined with a Congress looking for more avenues to circumvent
the Bill of Rights and Administrations who selectively apply the law and
everyone is threatened.

So perhaps with so much information at hand people will finally realize that
big government may be too big to protect freedom.

------
onedev
Yup you can rest assured that if any of my future employers ever engages in
such behavior, I won't rest easy and I hope today's young generation won't
either.

------
cinquemb
When I was reading about the loyalty bit discussed here, It made me think of
these lyrics which kind of describes the break in the social contract between
a large government and its citizens (I mention this because it seems to be the
attitude of more and more of the young men I grew up with, maybe because of
media like this…):

' _Feel my pain, going insane, I’m ashamed. Cause I ain’t got shit but an EBT
card from a fiend. That owe me and it’s in her daughter name. How the fuck is
they pose to eat? How the fuck am I pose to eat? Got a nigga in the streets,
no health care, Tryna slang weed just to put shoes on his feet. So fuck you,
you don’t give a fuck about me. Can’t get a job if they drug test me. Got a
nigga stressed depressed. Got a feeling in his chest. And the world’s stripped
of happiness_ "

And maybe more interestingly enough, the song is entitled "Terrorist Threats"

Watch the imagery in the video and listen to the lyrics:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_71q5lVEjc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_71q5lVEjc)

Surprised hayden didn't mention them in his remarks…

------
argumentum
This article seems to moan the destruction of a _job for life_ culture where
employees value _loyalty to their employer_ over their own free will.

I think most on this forum _celebrate_ that change instead, as the alternative
seems like slavery.

~~~
alan_cx
No. Is describes the unintended consequences of it. That's not moaning or
complaining, its pointing something out.

~~~
argumentum
No. It claims these "consequences" are in some way negative, which is what I
meant by "moan". In my view, every consequence mentioned is a good thing. It's
a good thing people are not loyal to their employers. It's a good thing people
want to change jobs regularly.

~~~
ijk
Do they want to or do they have to? People having the freedom to change jobs
is a good thing. People being forced to change jobs against their will is a
bad thing. Which factor is more prevalent today?

~~~
argumentum
People being used to having a "job for life", and society approving of this is
a bad thing.

~~~
ijk
Well today we have a society that approves of "jobs for life" _and_ no jobs
for life. The US has an employment-to-population ratio of 66%. Sounds like the
worst of both worlds to me.

~~~
argumentum
What % of that ratio is intentionally "unemployed"? I am. That statistic is
similar to the commonly quoted % of US residents w/out health insurance, which
ignores that a good deal of these people (again, like myself) choose to forgo
this due to careful cost/benefit analysis.

------
devx
Leaking is also the future of investigative journalism. Investigative
journalism already relies heavily on leaking, but I'm talking about "user-
generated" leaking or Leaking 2.0 (as in Web 2.0).

Even if the print media dies, and it's harder to do investigative journalism
at the national level, and even more so at the local level, leaking by normal
people will take its place.

There's one caveat, though. We also need a system where it's easy to do it
anonymously, so you don't face the repercussions from the powerful, and/or we
need stronger laws to protect leaking of wrong behavior (whether "legal" or
not).

------
dmix
I normally hate articles that try to frame culture neatly into generations
when its frequently very chaotic in reality.

But despite depending on x/y for labeling the overall cultural change, covered
in this article, away from jobs for life is very real.

Most likely starting with our grandparents and more recently accelerating
along with increases in university educations (not needing to be dependent
career wise).

------
coldcode
I don't think this has anything to do with Gen Y or whatever you want to call
non-old people. Every generation begins with a desire to change what the
previous generation did. Some of us don't lose that desire, many do as life's
responsibility requires less desire to force change. Branding this as
something new is what every generation thinks it is.

------
lowglow
I was hoping more people would leak/whistle blow, so I created
[http://valleyanon.com/](http://valleyanon.com/) which gives anonymous
features to bloggers.

Unfortunately, it is now riddled with spam. all the spam on the internet.

~~~
jacquesm
The following might not help:

\- insanely long response time/application error

\- not on a secure server

\- hidden registration, so no way to check who backs this (it could be a
honeypot).

------
jheriko
i'd always hoped gen y were smart enough to not need to be told the obvious
via leaks.

i applaud snowden for his courage, but the aftermath is completely the wrong
thing to have happened. its a fantastic distraction from the /really/
important issues which otherwise might have gotten some more attention... :/

------
contingencies
Generation identities? What a 'divide and conquer' tangent to the issues.

------
badman_ting
I refuse to focus on the man. He is not the story, what he told us is the
story.

~~~
ijk
Which is why you should probably read this article, and not just the title.

------
c3vin
Brilliantly written - thank, you.

------
InclinedPlane
I'm not even going to bother reading this article. What the hell does "Gen Y"
have to do with anything? Have there been big whistleblowers in the past? Yes,
of course, some of them extremely big. The Pentagon Papers being an excellent
example.

Indeed, here's a list of major whistleblowers in relatively recent history
(20th century):
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_whistleblowers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_whistleblowers)

Keeping in mind the bias of any historical list toward the present, I don't
see any evidence in this list which indicates "Generation Y" is somehow
different in its ability or tendency toward whistleblowing.

~~~
jacquesm
> What the hell does "Gen Y" have to do with anything?

and

> I'm not even going to bother reading this article.

Are a little silly in the same comment, since exactly that question is
answered in the article at some length.

