
Oracle lowers the flag on Fortress language project - protomyth
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/23/oracle_fortress_project_halted/
======
Ralith
Interesting that the challenge they felt particularly worth calling out wasn't
about solving hard algorithms or design problems, but rather making those
solutions function on the limited JVM platform. Perhaps this will give pause
to the next language developer tempted to target the JVM for no reason other
than its popularity.

~~~
mindcrime
_Interesting that the challenge they felt particularly worth calling out
wasn't about solving hard algorithms or design problems, but rather making
those solutions function on the limited JVM platform. Perhaps this will give
pause to the next language developer tempted to target the JVM for no reason
other than its popularity._

From Guy Steele's blog post[1]:

"Nevertheless, over the last few years, as we have focused on implementing a
compiler targeted to the Java Virtual Machine, we encountered some severe
technical challenges having to do with the mismatch between the (rather
ambitious) Fortress type system and a virtual machine not designed to support
it (that would be every currently available VM, not just JVM)."

So it doesn't sound like this is any particular indictment of the JVM.

[1]:
[https://blogs.oracle.com/projectfortress/entry/fortress_wrap...](https://blogs.oracle.com/projectfortress/entry/fortress_wrapping_up)

~~~
Ralith
An indictment of VMs in general, then. They're almost universally targeted at
supporting a particular language, and cause problems when more advanced
concepts (such as cutting-edge type systems) must be implemented.

~~~
bascule
With InvokeDynamic the JVM is pretty much the first to open up its full set of
compiler optimizations to any language that implements its method dispatch
semantics using InDy's set of tools. InDy allows language implementers to
define their own method dispatch semantics, polymorphic inline caches, and
deoptimization in the event that assumptions change e.g. the class hierarchy
has been modified.

~~~
Ralith
There is rather more to type systems than method dispatch.

~~~
bascule
Type checking at method dispatch is the only part of the equation (literally,
in the case of Fortress) where the JVM would come into play. Everything else
happens ahead of time in the compiler.

With InDy, the JVM can do a one-time check, verifying whatever security
invariants the language has put in place, and after that, the MethodHandle is
in InDy's polymorphic inline cache and the security checks can be skipped on
subsequent calls. All subsequent calls dispatch at Java speed and can be
inlined by HotSpot just like any other Java method.

Writing your compiler on top of the JVM using InDy might help make this
clearer!

------
mindcrime
Bummer, I was really interested in Fortress. There really seemed to be some
interesting stuff going on there. Ah well, maybe some of the research will
help with Java or something else down the road.

Or, perhaps some plucky startup will pick up the technology and next week
we'll see a headline "Startup raises $4M to develop Fortress" or something of
that ilk.

~~~
Ralith
VCs are interested in spending millions on programming language R&D? Where do
I sign up?

~~~
mindcrime
Well, Greylock invested[1][2] in Typesafe, the company backing Scala.

[1]: [http://greylockvc.com/2011/05/12/why-we-invested-in-
typesafe...](http://greylockvc.com/2011/05/12/why-we-invested-in-typesafe-
modern-applications-demand-modern-tools/)

[2]: [http://actu.epfl.ch/news/epfl-professor-launches-typesafe-
wi...](http://actu.epfl.ch/news/epfl-professor-launches-typesafe-with-3m-from-
grey/)

~~~
Ralith
Interesting! Not only did they invest in them, they did so explicitly because
of Scala. Still, I suspect they'd have had a much harder pitch without Java
compatibility; a quick review of their materials seems to suggest that
bringing existing technology to a Java environment, rather than developing new
technology, is Typesafe's business.

------
jkbyc
Too bad for Quora: <https://twitter.com/benjamn/status/74191660543778816>

> Ben Newman ‏@benjamn

> @yaaang Your sources are stale. We evaluated Scala, yes,

> but we are now 90% committed to Fortress, a modern dialect

> of FORTRAN.

~~~
rwmj
Why? Fortress is open source (BSD-licensed). It'll continue to be available
forever and as long as anyone is using it and interested it'll keep getting
fixes and features.

------
dkd
AFAIK, Guy Steele is in this project. What'll happen to him?

~~~
tjr
If you click on through you can see Guy's blog post that this article is based
on:
[https://blogs.oracle.com/projectfortress/entry/fortress_wrap...](https://blogs.oracle.com/projectfortress/entry/fortress_wrapping_up)

He seems to imply that he'll be moving on to some other project at Oracle, but
it's not really stated explicitly.

------
caycep
i thought for a moment Oracle was going after Dwarf Fortress...

~~~
kabdib
Yeah, for tips on how to improve their user interfaces. :-)

