

Apache is being forced into a Java Fork - Garbage
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/apache-is-being-forced-into-a-java-fork/7945

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dreur
Let put some facts right

* Harmony is already a fork of java. But without the patent grant there is an unknown.

* ASF wanted to pass the TCK for the patent grant and wanted Oracle to get rid of the field of use related to the tck.

* Dalvik is using some of Harmony's code.

~~~
bad_user
You don't know what a fork is.

In order for it to be a fork, something has to get forked from the parent ...
like the source code, or the standard.

~~~
ollysb
In this case it would be a fork from the standard. Without allowing the TCK to
be used against harmony the project must be considered a different standard
that may will diverge in the future.

Given the disappointment over closures and collection literals being delayed
until java 8 there must be a temptation within the harmony camp to push ahead
with these features and produce the version of java that many are clamoring
for.

~~~
sigzero
It would be dead in the water if forked from the "standard". Java plays in the
enterprise space and they are pretty particular about that sort of thing.

~~~
ollysb
I agree, the java community is generally extremely risk averse. This does
however create a positive pressure towards such a fork. It seems very
hypothetical at the moment but given that a fork were to receive backing from
google I'm sure the enterprise community would be comfortable using it.

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kls
_Eventually, the courts will get to decide how “open” an open-source project
is when one company gets to call all the important shots._

This is why I don't see a fork sustainable. Hostilities have already been
mounted. I think Oracle taints the entire concept of using the JVM for
anything as far as Apache is concerned. The only think I see now is the
transition to separate and a completely independent technology. I wonder how
difficult it would be to port the language and classes over to the LLVM, if
their would even be legal ramifications in doing that and in the end if it is
worth it, given that languages have progressed beyond Java now. Still maybe
Apache would get something together that would allow it's libraries to operate
on the LLVM while embracing a new language for future development. It's food
for thought given that their is an imminent need to move beyond Oracle's
reach.

~~~
regularfry
> The only think I see now is the transition to separate and a completely
> independent technology.

GCJ would be what you're looking for here, I think. The critical question
would be how badly, if at all, GCJ would be affected by an Oracle militantly
pursuing perceived patent violators.

> languages have progressed beyond Java now

It's not about the language. It's about the collosal amount of libraries in
the ecosystem.

~~~
kls
I think and I could be totally wrong on this one, but I think that Oracle
could construe the GCJ as appropriating their ideas and infringing on their
patents. Moving to something like the LLVM would at least help distance Apache
from that.

My point as far as languages go was not that the libraries are not worth it
but if you have to go so far as moving all of them over too a wholly separate
run-time, is it even worth it to continue Java the language or would it be
better to just adopt Scala or some other language that incorporates modern
features and make it compatible with the ported library set. I was really
pondering if you go all that way, is it worth it to just go that last 1/10 of
a mile, instead of trying to bring Java the language into the modern age.

------
jp
Harmony is an alternative to OpenJDK. There is no need to fork anything unless
they want to merge in some UI code or something. Suing Apache seems very
counterproductive imo.

I wrote a text about this earlier today if someone is interested. Not
published here since it is kinda rantish.

[http://labs.teppefall.com/2010/12/calling_oracles_sco_bluff....](http://labs.teppefall.com/2010/12/calling_oracles_sco_bluff.html)

------
eddieplan9
Please enlighten me as I am not very clear about the impact of this. Why there
are people saying Java is on its death path because of this? The way I see it
this only strengthens OpenJDK, which 99.9% of the applications are already
using.

~~~
kls
The TCK puts restrictions on mobile and I believe server run-times. So
basically, it can only be used for desktop development or JVM lite if you
will. Given that Java desktop was DOA you can see the usefulness of accepting
those restrictions. Oracle as made no secret of their intent to monetize the
JVM, there are a good deal of developers that believe that you don't pay to
play for technology as low level as a language and run-time. So they are
naturally concerned about the manner in which it will be monetized. Looking at
the field of use restriction it can serve as an indicator as to where that
plan to monetize it. Further with their suite against Google in relation to
Android, I bleive that it paints a pretty big bulls eye on where they plan to
monetize it. That being said, I have used Java since it was first placed on
the net for download, I have seen it fall behind other languages and never
once though it was going to die. It had too an extensive of an entrenchment
and library available. I personally do believe that this was the death shot
and when (I like to think) level headed guys like me, who have always said
well it is good enough, sure it not shinny but good enough, start to think
that it was the death shot, then it may very well be so.

For me personally, if I where asked to throw my lot in with Apache or Oracle,
it would be Apache, I use their technology every day, I do a project with
Oracle technology (excluding the JVM now) maybe once a year. I think Oracle
thinks the entrenchment is to great to overcome, for our sake I hope they are
wrong.

Fortunately for myself, I was an assembly developer before I was a C developer
before I was a Java developer. So my exit, should it become untenable is easy
enough given that I am a freelancer. I don't have a significant technology
infrastructure investment like product people have. I truly feel for you guys
that do, I would be really worried if I where in your shoes.

------
Autre
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