
Thinkpad X62 - mparramon
https://geoff.greer.fm/2017/07/16/thinkpad-x62/
======
chrissnell
I love these Thinkpad mods but don't have the time or patience to do one
myself. Instead, I did a little research and settled on the T470s as my new
laptop. You won't read about it much on the Lenovo boards. It's not the
fastest; that title goes to their huge desktop replacement beasts. It's not
the sexiest and thinnest--the X1 beats it there. It is, however, well-equipped
with a great display and fast-enough CPU, and it's quite thin. It has all the
latest tech, including NVME disk and HiDPI display options.

I run Arch Linux and the i3 window manager on mine and it's just perfect.

~~~
bluedino
The T4x0 is the star of the lineup. You can get last year's model dirt cheap
through the Lenovo Outlet or refurbished ($500+ US). They finally give you a
good screen (remember the T430 and earlier days? Or even the recent 1366x768
screens?), battery is great, the chiclet keyboard isn't as bad as people try
to make you believe, and not only did they leave the TrackPoint on, the
TouchPads are pretty decent even if they aren't to Apple's level.

Easily repairable or upgrade-able by the end user, thin and light...

~~~
chrissnell
You hit upon my very favorite thing about Thinkpads: they are user-repairable
and user-upgradeable!

Lenovo has the most amazing website that tells you, step-by-step, how to fix
almost every component of their products. For those that are considering one
of their products, you have to check this out:
[https://www.lenovoservicetraining.com](https://www.lenovoservicetraining.com)

~~~
alchemism
I've made a hobby out of finding, refurbishing, and reselling Thinkpads since
the late 90s. The Ts and Xs have maintained a reputation for serviceability
across years.

------
Leimi
This X62 seems like a perfect machine. I'm impressed such a mod made by
enthusiasts exists and can actually be bought today.

Meanwhile the Retro Thinkpad, made by Lenovo, seems to be quite a
disappointment by just having an old keyboard put on a new thinkpad.

I'm on a x201s since years because I honestly can't find a better machine on
the market today (trackpoint, 16/10, great keyboard, matte screen with decent
resolution to work, solid as rock, easy to maintain).

Anytime a friend asks me for a cheap laptop buying advice, I tell them to get
a used thinkpad. Just add some RAM, SSD and battery if necessary and voila,
you have a solid machine that will last you years for less than 400€ total.

~~~
tannhaeuser
Is the retro available yet at your place? What's wrong with new tech with a
real keyboard? Isn't that the point of the retro?

~~~
Leimi
From the recent rumors it seems the retro will "just" be a 2017 thinkpad + old
keyboard. Cool, but not enough for me.

I guess I got my expectations too high when Lenovo put out surveys asking
about screen ratio, status led, thinklights, etc. a couple years ago.

~~~
walterbell
It's sad that the only place to get a HiDPI 4:3 screen today is from ... Apple
on the iPad Pro 2 12.9". They have no problem getting that aspect ratio from
their panel suppliers. Now we need a Thinkpad Retro keyboard case for the
iPP2. Until then, the Logitech Create Pro case has the best iPP2 keyboard.

~~~
tannhaeuser
Why is 4:3 so important to both of you and many others (I'm not trolling but
genuinely interested)? I'm on an 13" XPS right now which has a 16:9,
supposedly "consumer laptop" ratio, and I'm not missing anything, and I'm as
much of a hardcore terminal, touch typist and vi guy as can be.

When I bought mine early last year, I had the luck that both the XPS 13 and
the Thinkpad Carbon was in store so I could test it "hands-on". While the
keyboard certainly was more elaborate, had more keytravel and all, it wasn't
really subjectively better than the XPS's. The display on the Carbon, though,
was really a POS compared to the XPS's. I'm guessing it was the TN display; it
was just awful and not something I would tolerate on a notebook for the kind
of money they're asking.

~~~
chx
This I don't get either. Having an 1920 x 1200 monitor is nice of course but I
am not getting bent into pretzels if the Anniversary 25 is "just" 1920 x 1080
or some other 16:9 res.

I have a T420s hacked to full HD (someone else did the hacking) and frankly,
it's fine to this day, six years in. Looking into the far future, it won't be
enough because the 16GB RAM will limit and it would be awfully nice to have
Thunderbolt 3 so that I can play the occasional game or two. I really hope
Mantiz will actually succeed in launching their MXM based external GPU, would
be superb.

But the disappointment is understandable. Check the word cloud on
[http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/retro-thinkpad-survey-
keyboar...](http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/retro-thinkpad-survey-keyboard) \--
two years ago would be consumers of Lenovo (and surely past consumers too)
have literally begged for a thinkpad with ... keyboard and ... screen. Now I
hear on various forums from Lenovo apologists that a custom panel, status LEDs
etc would've been expensive but really, if it is expensive, why not run a
crowdfunding campaign to see whether there's interest? They might have been
positively surprised.

But oh well. As I posted elsewhere, the keyboard winter has been upon us since
2012 and I am grateful for any little thaw. The last laptop with a usable
keyboard layout was the 2011 ThinkPad generation with Sandy Bridge CPU , the
last usable phone was the Droid 4. Late October this year we are getting the
ThinkPad Anniversary 25 and a proper looking keyboard mod for the Moto Z. This
is our last hurrah. The curtain has dropped, this is the last encore and then
this era is over. I am sad, but it is what it is. I will get at least five
years out of the Anniversary 25 (that's the longest warranty I can buy) but I
hope for ten and if I am lucky then the Moto keyboard will last five years
too. Maybe eye tracking grows up by then? Voice takes over? Let's hope.

~~~
tannhaeuser
It's not the end of the world. I really like Thinkpads of old, but can do
without the clunky optical and legacy ports. And as I said, Dell's keyboard
(on the XPS at least) are really working well for me.

My point of reference for what a keyboard can be is the Model M keyboard (no
less!) I had the pleasure of using early to mid 90's. Compared to that
experience the difference between a ThinkPad (any generation) and a good non-
ThinkPad keyboard is gradual at best.

~~~
chx
"The XPS 15's keyboard still maintains the same plastic keys with 1.3mm of
travel, which is a bit on the shallow side."

I do not see dedicated Home - End - PgUp - PgDn buttons either. It's vital.
Look at my chosen desktop keyboard [https://images-na.ssl-images-
amazon.com/images/I/61gEPhEChqL...](https://images-na.ssl-images-
amazon.com/images/I/61gEPhEChqL._SL1200_.jpg) see something next to the
arrows? Matias Ergo Pro , mounted vertically.

------
m_mueller
What drives me up the wall with all recent macbooks, besides the deteriorating
keyboards, is how they need a charged battery to power on. Meaning, they have
to constantly drain and charge the battery even with ac plugged in. Is is
really that hard to provide what has been standard in laptops for years with
an additional wall power circuit? Just planned breakage so you have to keep
buying new ones? Apple in the passed stressed these kinds of details, now
apparently you can't even tell whether it's charging anymore without looking
at the screen.

~~~
StudentStuff
Edit: I point out Apple failing to write drivers FOR THEIR OWN LAPTOPS and I
get downvotes? :/

Apple just doesn't seem to care about build quality beyond the cosmetics of
their Mac lineup. A great example of this is how they have dual connections
from the keyboard & trackpad to the mainboard (USB and SPI), while the UEFI
and Linux have drivers to support the keyboard fully, macOS has no driver for
the built-in USB connection.

What this means is when your coffee spills on your Mac, the keyboard won't
work in macOS.

Louis Rossman did a video demonstrating Apple's lack of drivers for their own
hardware:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geGmC1xI4zo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geGmC1xI4zo)

~~~
new299
Because it seems fair enough as en engineering decision?

Apple also provide firmware updates far longer than most manufacturers (there
was a recent-ish CCC? talk highlighting this).

~~~
StudentStuff
> Because it seems fair enough as en engineering decision?

Huh? Supporting hardware with drivers is purely a software decision, its not
as though software adds noteworthy weight to a device.

> Apple also provide firmware updates far longer than most manufacturers

Only for iPhones, on Mac they leave your iCloud email in in plaintext on the
UEFI after the computer is wiped. For computers, expect 6 to 7 years of macOS
updates at most, meanwhile Windows & Linux offer support to ancient i386
systems still.

~~~
lvillani
> on Mac they leave your iCloud email in in plaintext on the UEFI after the
> computer is wiped.

You are probably referring to the "Find My Mac" token that's stored in the
NVRAM. It's fairly easy to wipe it with one of these commands/procedures:

    
    
      - sudo nvram -d fmm-mobileme-token-FMM
      - sudo nvram -c # this one will wipe the entire NVRAM, use with care!
      - https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204063
    

> For computers, expect 6 to 7 years of macOS updates at most

High Sierra can be installed on "Late 2009 iMacs", that right there is 8 years
of security and feature updates. Those models will get security and point
updates, at the very least, until the next version of macOS, for a total of 9
years (if not more, we'll see).

~~~
pfranz
Last year's macOS Sierra won't install on my wife's 2010 Macbook Pro. Apple
doesn't seem to always roll off support every year. I'm guessing some version
adds new tech and they drop support for 3-4 years worth of hardware all at
once (that hardware is usually at minimum 5 years old).

------
sapphire_tomb
I went out shopping a few weekends ago to see what the current offering on
laptops looks like. I ended up in an Apple store, and after only a few seconds
fiddling with a MacBook, I walked straight back out again. That keyboard is
_terrible_. I don't care how many other things Apple's line has going for it -
if the primary interface to the device is that bad, I just can't imagine using
it.

I wish there were more laptops out there with the old style ThinkPad keyboard
on them :(

~~~
robin_reala
Counterpoint: I got a new Macbook Pro from my job and I’m really enjoying the
new keyboard: very little travel but a satisfying click to every press and
minimal actuation pressure.

~~~
wlesieutre
I also really like the new keyboard. I use an older MBP for work and it used
to be my favorite key design. Now it feels mushy.

For people who like to hit their keys hard, I can see it being a problem. For
most though, give it a week and you'll be back up to speed and won't want to
trade back.

~~~
always_good
The main downside is that mine got kinda mushy / misfire at the one-year mark.

I'm currently living abroad, but ideally I'd be able to bring my Macbook Pro
into the Apple store next time I'm in the States and get all the keyboard
switches replaced.

Is that possible?

------
eveningcoffee
> _Despite its shortcomings, I ended up using the X61s more than my 12”
> MacBook. The X61s convinced me that a much better laptop could exist. The
> same chassis with modern components would be a very compelling product._

This is a good point and there and many people who believe it to be true. Only
problem are the Lenovo executives that are not willing to provide such product
(see Thinkpad Retro).

~~~
walkingolof
Rumor is that the Thinkpad Retro aka. the anniversary model, is due in
October, celebrating 25 years of Thinkpad.

[https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-Anniversary-
Ed...](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-Anniversary-Edition-
planned-for-October-release-Update-Teaser-Image.229782.0.html)

~~~
5_minutes
I've been waiting for it. I find it an awesome initiative from Lenovo, and it
shows something many other big companies have lost. Making products for the
hardcore geeks/fans. This used to be common 20 years ago.

If they execute this well, they'll score a lot of points in my book!

------
sharpercoder
Had t40p for 10+ years. Dropped it from ~2m high several times. Got coffee
over it numerous times. Kids of my sister left it drowning in a puddle of ice-
cream ice.

I cleaned it with water a bunch of times, worked after drying. I even reflowed
the motherboard after the housing got a little bit less stiff and random
resets and freezes occured.

I think my sister still has it. I should get it back and hang it on the wall
or something.

~~~
minipci1321
> I even reflowed the motherboard after the housing got a [...]

How does one do that? Did you do it in a professional shop, or at home? What
is the tooling required? I am interested in all details.

~~~
firmgently
Yeah my T41p had the same problem with the GPU (specifically ATI I seem to
remember) popping out of its BGA socket slightly, sometimes (and in my case)
caused by picking up the laptop by the corner of the palmrest (naughty but
common habit that you usually get away with on Thinkpads)... was a common
problem in those series with the oven reflow technique
[http://www.computerrepairtips.net/how-to-reflow-a-laptop-
mot...](http://www.computerrepairtips.net/how-to-reflow-a-laptop-motherboard/)
working for lots of people. Didn't work for me but I think that was my
failing. I fixed it with a folded up credit card inside under the
trackpoint/palmrest, acted as a crude wide spring applying pressure over the
heatsink/pipe of the gpu, horrific bodge lol but it worked and I carried on
using the machine for years without problems after that.

------
macspoofing
> I forgot how much I preferred 4:3 screens for work.

I didn't. I love 4:3 on laptops. I wish more people would rediscover it.

~~~
josteink
This was actually one of my reasons to abandon Android tablets.

I wanted 4:3, but all that was offered was 16:9 or 16:10.

~~~
AdmiralAsshat
The Pixel C had something closer to a 4:3, if memory serves.[0]

[0] The wiki page said it's actually a 1:√2 ratio.

~~~
josteink
It was priced absurdly high for a tablet on a platform with terrible in-app
tablet-support though.

------
StudentStuff
This is why I've been buying every well priced Thinkpad on Craigslist. From a
couple T420's to the occasional T440 (for $70 to $100), with a few
librebootable T400's and T60's thrown in for $10 to $20, I seem to hold these
laptops for a short duration before friends or family buy them off me for $5
to $15 more.

Plus, when anything breaks, parts are cheap and plentiful. I even upgraded a
T440 for my SO with a 1080p IPS screen and a few other bits, its an
impressively nice machine all specced out!

~~~
yoodenvranx
> This is why I've been buying every well priced Thinkpad on Craigslist. From
> a couple T420's to the occasional T440 (for $70 to $100), with a few
> librebootable T400's and T60's thrown in for $10 to $20, I seem to hold
> these laptops for a short duration before friends or family buy them off me
> for $5 to $15 more.

Over here in Germany you unfortunately pay 100 euro for a T61 and 100-300 euro
for a T420. If I could get a T440 for just 100 euro I would buy it in an
instant.

------
ct0
I have one of these x62's in the i5 version, bought it prebuilt. The screen
was quickly updated with the LED backlight mod as well. Honestly, coming from
an x220 and x230, this thing flies. Highly recommend one. I also have an x61s
that is nice, but the resolution and speed is not modern enough for me.

~~~
Leimi
Hey, great. I'd think it would be on par with the x220 or x230 given the same
SSD or RAM.

How hard was it to install the LED backlight mod?

~~~
ct0
Performance of the x62 is on par for sure. Mainly because the hardware is
swappable between them. The relative gain in resolution for the size/weight
between a non-fdh modded x2*0 and the x62 is the main takeaway. I also gained
miniDP and usb3 which the x220 does not have.

Regarding the LED? Monty, who makes the kit, is an awesome dude and great
resource. I emailed with him regarding installation and he quickly responded.
Installation should not be for someone without a history of taking these
machines apart. You must have the willingness to dig a little deeper than a
RAM install, as you are disassembling the screen bezel and making permanent
cuts into the plastic and on an expensive x62 prebuilt, this took serious
consideration.

The cuts are easy, and the disassembly is easy. no soldering or real issues I
can remember, other than having to do it twice because of dust. Do the whole
thing in a clean area without a rug, vacuum everything around first.

I highly recommend the kit. Brightness is on par with brand new machines. Just
shield your eyes from the LED kit turning out before it's in the screen. SOO
BRIGHT

~~~
Leimi
Thanks for all the info!

------
rishabhsagar
For users wanting a stable laptop with secure boot in Thinkpad chasis,
supplier list from Libreboot seems like a great place.

There are suppliers who will sell refurbished Thinkpads with Libreboot pre-
installed at relatively decent prices.

[https://libreboot.org/suppliers.html](https://libreboot.org/suppliers.html)

~~~
g4k
Too bad that there is no model with a 1080p display available.

------
duncan_bayne
I'm running an unmodified X220 myself (well, except for installing the webcam
myself[1]). Rock solid running FreeBSD 11.1[2].

I'll probably keep running this until / if I (a) roll my own, or (b) Lenovo
releases their much-anticipated retro ThinkPad.

[1] [https://duncan.bayne.id.au/blog/when-in-
doubt.html](https://duncan.bayne.id.au/blog/when-in-doubt.html)

[2]
[https://www.instagram.com/p/BXPY61pFkRK/](https://www.instagram.com/p/BXPY61pFkRK/)

~~~
_joel
Dusted off an several year old x220 that I had lying around that was suffering
power issues (dodgy power management fixed with a BIOS update - from last
year, so quite surprised they were still in service), also added an SSD and
it's been a really solid machine. Coming back to a thinkpad keyboard after
years of macbook use was welcome too, found myself typing much faster. Next
step is to put coreboot on the BIOS.

------
post_break
I'm doing the 1080p mod on my x230 since I love it so much. Such a great
design and keyboard. No it's not paper thin but it doesn't have to be.

~~~
crankybear1337
You're in for a treat. Going from the crappy low-res TN panel to a FHD IPS
feels almost like getting a whole new machine.

~~~
post_break
Mine has the IPS screen, but it ghosts so bad.

------
track02
What are some up-to-date equivalents to the X60/1 if any?

I want something small with a nice keyboard and durable enough I can throw it
in a bag without worry but I just can't seem to find anything better than my
current X61 which is getting a little tired.

I'd be interested in going even smaller but netbooks don't seem to be a thing
anymore.

~~~
dm319
I also have an X60, would recommend the X250/60/70\. It is surprisingly
smaller than you would expect from photos, and runs cooler/longer than the
X60. The downsides are that the keyboard isn't as good - and how acceptable it
is depends on exactly which supplier you get. On the other hand the keys arent
quite as cramped as on the X60. You can also get an extended battery which
gives you more than 12 hours runtime. Plus you can get nice IPS 1080p displays
which is a plus, and it still has ethernet.

Have a look at the gemini palmtop for a potential future arm linux machine.

------
anthony_barker
I am more a fan of the X over the T.

I have gone trough several newer computers and still lean towards the x220. I
actually think the keyboard on the x220 is better... bigger delete key and esc
keys.. not backlit but has the night light thingy.

Yeah I miss the 4x3 screen....

Wish it had higher res screen, was a bit thinner and maybe an updated chip
set... But

------
gytdev
I wrote to the guys in the original post. The price is not as cheap as I
thought:

X62 with i5 - 780 USD X62 with i7-5500U - 980USD

both setups no:ram/hdd/battery , new AFFS panel (1400x1050)

I will better consider buying a new Thinkpad or wait for the retro edition

------
agumonkey
I dearly need to swap the backlight on my X200. Lenovo loves low contrast so
much, to the point I believe it's an optician conspiracy :)

ps: AMD announced their laptop ryzen based CPUs, I hope nb51 try one board
with it.

~~~
nils-m-holm
Try an X220! I regularly use mine on the balcony in bright sunlight and even
with bad vision the screen is a pleasure to read. Plus, the keyboard is
fantastic, but I guess that's the same as on the X200.

~~~
bluedino
You must have the tablet model with the IPS screen.

~~~
keithpeter
I'm typing this reply on an X220-4290-CZ2, a bog standard laptop. The 1366x768
screen goes very bright and I find it useable in sunlight on e.g. a train in a
seat by the window when you can't move out of the sun. This is at 52 degrees
North mind you, might be different further South.

I have an X60 with slackware on that just runs and runs and runs. It is the
screen that I find the limiting factor as OA mentioned. I might summon up the
confidence to have a go at the LED backlight hack...

------
turtlebits
Would love to go back to Thinkpads, but I've had bad experiences with the LCD
panel quality (not resolution) being terrible. Maybe it's my eyes, but certain
manufacturer LCDs have left a bad impression that I'm unlikely to even
consider them - Ones in Thinkpads, Nokia devices, ASUS tablets, some Acer.
Even to the point of giving me eye strain.

I think the only non-Apple display in a laptop I've really enjoyed is the 4k
one in my Dell (heavy as all but plays games).

~~~
firmgently
Swapping out the panel is fairly easy in most (all?) Thinkpads and they're
pretty cheap to source especially if you don't mind buying used. A bit of
Googling on the Thinkpad model number will reveal which manufacturer's panels
are good and which are bad (often the same IBM/Lenovo part number is used
irrespective of the supplier) for that model. Or sometimes another panel with
the same dimensions and spec that matches the gpu/connector can be used (often
Dell and Lenovo are using interchangeable panels in similar model ranges, used
to be the case with Apple too but nowadays they seem to do exclusive deals
with manufacturers and don't let anybody else play). Not a solution that
everyone can be bothered with but I've vastly improved some cheap 2nd hand
Thinpads with a nice new screen.

------
tammer
Part of me still misses my beloved IBM-made X31. But ultimately even if I
could choose one with modern components/specs, the thing that would keep me on
a MacBook (disregarding software) is the unibody enclosure. Much better to
have a machine that dents instead of chips. Beauty so rarely bespeaks
durability in design but a CNC machined chassis is really an evolutionary leap
for mobile devices.

------
davexunit
I would love to have a similar upgrade path with the X220. I don't love the
16:9 display, but a higher res upgrade would take care of that issue. I
definitely want to try out the power saving tweaks from that script in the
article. I use a 9-cell battery currently and get somewhere around 6-8 hours
of life out of it. Would love to extend that a bit.

~~~
ginreaper
I have an x220 still. My whole chassis is cracked, my fan grinds like crazy,
my lid has been broken since day 1. the thing is tough even though it's pretty
much broken in every possible way it still runs fine and since i have the 9
cell battery as well I still get 5-6 hours from it.

I think might next upgrade might have to be the x62

~~~
davexunit
I'm considering the x62 as well. I'm not sure if the motherboard supports non-
intel wireless chips and if the CPU requires firmware blobs to run the GPU. If
either of those are the case then it isn't a good fit for me because right now
my hacked x220 is usable without any proprietary software in the OS.

------
ams6110
I use a Lenovo ThinkPad keyboard with my desktop machine. Model KU-1255. Love
it and love not ever having to reach for a mouse.

------
kristianp
I really miss the keyboard layout of my T410. It's good news that the retro
Thinkpad has the same layout, hopefully it will be popular enough that the
main product lines go back to having the separate cluster of
Delete,Insert,Home,End,PgDn and PgUp that I miss so much.

------
AndyPandy
I have a Dell E6540 for exactly these reasons. It feels like a real computer.
It's 1080p, but I prefer widescreen personally. People are always making
comments about how old my laptop is, but it's an i7 4810MQ with 16GB RAM!

------
ezyang
Apparently they are out of stock for the i7 motherboards, so you'll have to
keep an eye out if you want one of those.

------
mikejmoffitt
I use one of these X62 systems as my laptop.

------
vvanders
Much love for the old thinkpads. You can practically drive over them with a
car and they keep on ticking.

------
gigatexal
And I’m over here like bring back the deep black PowerBook G3

------
thomasfl
I really like some of the hardware from Lenovo, Microsoft and HP. As a
developer I find the Windows 10 operating systems QDOS legacy to be annoying
to, say the least.

------
bambax
> _When commenting, remember: Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind?_

Great formulation and easy enough to remember, but... is truth ever kind?

------
jackielii
OMG I want this!!!

