
Is the Aeneid a Celebration of Empire or a Critique? - drjohnson
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/15/is-the-aeneid-a-celebration-of-empire-or-a-critique
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hacknat
It is an odd work. Homer’s works are well constructed, but extemporized from,
probably, many public performances. However Virgil was more Tolkien than
Homer, writing an epic divorced from public performance. Personally I think to
ascribe anti imperial (or pro) ideology to the book is anachronistic. I don’t
think the ancient world would have seen ideology as a force in the ascendancy
of empire. These things are the result of chance and the will of the gods in
the ancient world. Philosophy in Virgil’s time had much more to do with how to
handle life as it came at you rather than how it ought to be shaped (think
Marcus Aurelias’s Meditations).

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empath75
> Homer’s works are well constructed, but extemporized from, probably, many
> public performances.

I was listening to a greek history podcast where it was suggested that the
performance of Homer's works wasn't for entertainment, per se, but as part of
public religious rituals, and that the formulaic aspects of it (the wine-dark
sea) are similar to the kinds of ritualistic repetitions you get see in the
catholic mass for example (amen, peace be with you, etc). The catalogue of
ships makes more sense if you think of it as an oft repeated public ritual
that was striving for inclusion for audiences across the greek world. They
also suggested that it wasn't often performed all at once, but different
sections of it would mark different special occasions-- again, similar to the
way the bible is used in Mass. I'm not at all a greek history expert, but it
was interesting.

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Mediterraneo10
That kennings etc. show that the Homeric poems come from an oral tradition,
was eventually accepted on the basis of Milman Parry's studies of Balkan folk
poetry. That folk poetry (and similar traditions worldwide like the Kyrgyz
Manas) is for entertainment. So, there is no need to claim that Homeric
recitation must have been bound with religious ritual. Certainly Homer's
forebears might have performed at public festivals that also included a
religious element, but that doesn't mean the poetry was of the same nature.

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zero_intp
Rome of that age was very self aware of the histories of the many city states
that had risen and fallen before them, as I think the very story describes.
The personal choices made by leaders of those many prior city-empires were the
very reasons for each to fail on the global stage. The Aeneid was the
zeitgeist of Roman manifest destiny under the imperial banner.

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cafard
Is The Stars and Stripes Forever a celebration of the US?

"The subject world shall Rome's dominion own, And, prostrate, shall adore the
nation of the gown. An age is ripening in revolving fate When Troy shall
overturn the Grecian state, And sweet revenge her conqu'ring sons shall call,
To crush the people that conspir'd her fall. Then Caesar from the Julian stock
shall rise, Whose empire ocean, and whose fame the skies Alone shall bound;
whom, fraught with eastern spoils, Our heav'n, the just reward of human toils,
Securely shall repay with rites divine; And incense shall ascend before his
sacred shrine. Then dire debate and impious war shall cease, And the stern age
be soften'd into peace: Then banish'd Faith shall once again return, And
Vestal fires in hallow'd temples burn; And Remus with Quirinus shall sustain
The righteous laws, and fraud and force restrain. Janus himself before his
fane shall wait, And keep the dreadful issues of his gate, With bolts and iron
bars: within remains Imprison'd Fury, bound in brazen chains; High on a trophy
rais'd, of useless arms, He sits, and threats the world with vain alarms.”

([http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:19...](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0052))

Editors of Virgil have pointed out that he grew up in badly unsettled times,
with civil wars. A bit of imperial peace looked pretty good compared to that.

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involans
This is literally an essay topic for every high-school Latin program.

It is hard not to see the contrast between Vergil's pathos for the costs of
war and the Iliad's celebration of aggressive machismo. And yet the Aeneid is
ideologically committed to the Roman project of empire as a civilising force.

The best modern parallel is something like Saving Private Ryan, which combines
sympathy for the costs and losses of war in general with full support of the
motivations of the particular war. Neither work is remotely subversive (they
skate close to being outright propaganda for their militaries and societies),
but both are profoundly humanistic.

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ellius
I took Latin a long time ago, but one passage supporting your point sticks in
my brain. Virgil is recounting the many steps that led to the Empire, and he
says something like, "Of such great difficulty was it to found the nation of
Rome." To me it read like he recognized the awesome power and accomplishments
of his civilization, but at the same time he saw the amount of blood that it
cost to achieve that greatness. The two were not separable, and the theme was
not about one or the other, but both as one.

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cycrutchfield
That is literally from the first few lines of the Aeneid...

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thrower123
Whatever it is, it's not very good. It always seemed a very pale imitation of
the Odyssey to me. If I'm reading semi-mythical Roman history, I'd rather
tackle Livy. Or better yet Sallust or Appian.

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chasil
I disagree; I found the Iliad to be quite boring, either with Achilles not
fighting due to the slave girl, or Achilles defiling the body of Patroclus for
far to long.

I didn't know the material when I read these, and I was looking for the sack
of Troy. I found it in Virgil, and it was well paced.

~~~
involans
The only way reading the Iliad made any sense to me was as history told by and
for mob bosses. The primary concerns are honour and 'face', stealing stuff and
killing people with maximum brutality. I think it is hard for a modern reader
to admire any of the figures in the Iliad, but seen as a story of rival
gangsters, it makes much more sense.

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qubax
Like most great literature, it's an insight into the reader. How you interpret
aeneid says more about you than the book. No different from the bible or
hamlet.

