
Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’ - samdb
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qj4aqw/amazon-hiring-intelligence-analyst-to-track-labor-organizing-threats
======
reading-at-work
Not surprised. Tech companies (Facebook and Google in this case, and probably
others) have been known to retain Pinkerton agents to monitor employees. Yes,
_those_ Pinkertons.

“Among other services, Pinkerton offers to send investigators to coffee shops
or restaurants near a company’s campus to eavesdrop on employees’
conversations.”

[https://newrepublic.com/article/147619/pinkertons-still-
neve...](https://newrepublic.com/article/147619/pinkertons-still-never-sleep)

~~~
dylan604
This is awesome in a very very sad way.

Several years ago, I started working for a company that was in the build up to
a Yea/Nay vote for joining the union. During that time, 2 "goons" showed up at
my apartment to discuss the benefits of joining the union and why not joining
would be bad. However, these very "intelligent" goons showed up during the
day, you know, working hours where I had a very low chance of being home. I
don't know if they were just that dumb, or if they were trying to influence
what they thought were family members. Instead, it was my flatmate from
England. She told me just laughed at the thought of me joining a union, and
not so politely told them to bugger off and closed the door on them.
Ultimately, the vote failed miserably.

All of that to say, that I'm not surprised that anti-union shenanigans are at
the same level as the pro-union shenanigans.

~~~
smnrchrds
What makes you call them goons? Politicians, activists, all sorts of people go
door knocking around the time of elections and referendums. What made this
interaction so different that you call them goons sent there to intimidate
you, not activists trying to attract your vote?

~~~
chrisseaton
Union activists in the UK have a reputation of being bullies, and in some
cases in the past they've used physical violence to try to get people to do
things their way.

At the height of union fever back in the 80s it got so bad at one point that
union activists dropped a concrete block on someone's head from a bridge
because he was trying to get into work and they thought he should be striking
(David Wilkie.)

I would not appreciate union goons showing up at my door and I'd have a
similar reaction.

~~~
caoilte
Love the way you've got to reach back literally 36 years to find one example
of union violence. The reputation that British unions actually have is for
getting shat on by bullying employers.

~~~
chrisseaton
I think it was a pretty watershed moment in union relations in the UK. It's
what a lot of people think of when they think of unions in the UK. They're
pretty unpopular here. I was explaining why a British person might call them
goons.

~~~
calcifer
> They're pretty unpopular here. I was explaining why a British person might
> call them goons.

Yeah, no. We must be living in different countries. There are lots of large,
powerful, popular British unions in a wide variety of industries.

~~~
chrisseaton
Union membership in the UK has been going down long-term for four decades.
It's halved since 1980 in fact.

[https://www.statista.com/statistics/287232/trade-union-
densi...](https://www.statista.com/statistics/287232/trade-union-density-
united-kingdom-uk-y-on-y/)

The Labour party have been ineffective for a decade and haven't been less
popular since 1935. They're at their least popular when their leadership is
more aligned to the unions. They were at the most recent popularity when they
were furthest from the unions. They have just one representative now in
Scotland, once a key area for unions.

[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-2019-50768605](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-2019-50768605)

If you're a fan of unionisation in the UK then I'd say you have cause for
concern.

------
Communitivity
This does not surprise me. I've been waiting to see corporate intelligence
agencies pop up. When you think about it, Amazon had an operating budget last
year of around $309 billion [1], already 75% of Germany's at $399 billion [2].
Facebook has an operating budget of around $35 billion, but that is still
enough to field a small intelligence arm. Also, that is Facebook..not all
Facebook properties combined.

[1]
[https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/operat...](https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/operating-
expenses)

[2] [https://www.dw.com/en/german-parliament-passes-record-
budget...](https://www.dw.com/en/german-parliament-passes-record-
budget/a-51463550#:~:text=The%20total%20German%20state%20budget,Bundestag%20chamber%20during%20Friday's%20debate).

~~~
saddlerustle
Most of Amazon's revenue is retail sales. Buying a product for $10 and selling
it for $10.10 is _not_ comparable to $10 of government spending. After
deducting cost of sales and cost of fulfilment you're left with ~$60 billion.

~~~
m0llusk
Are you sure about that? My understanding is that the bulk of their profits
are from Amazon Web Services. That is potentially a factor that contributes to
this skewed and awkward framing of labor.

~~~
csours
You are both right.

The bulk of PROFITS is in AWS.

The bulk of ECONOMIC ACTIVITY is in amazon.com sales.

------
setgree
Beyond the creepiness of the tasks required, what sticks out to me is the
persistent use of Amazon-specific jargon:

> Analysts must be capable of engaging and informing L7+ ER Principals
> (attorney stakeholders)

Does anyone who doesn’t work at Amazon know what “L7 + ER Principals” means?

Perhaps these are universally understood terms in some fields, but my guess is
that the “error” was posting this publicly, and it was meant to be an Amazon-
internal job posting.

Sometimes, for legal reasons, these sorts of jobs are required to be posted
publicly, but not in a way that makes the underlying content clear to anyone
[0]. So another possibility is that the mistake was posting the job with too
many specifics.

[0]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21851281](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21851281)

~~~
sp332
A quick search shows that L7 also exists at Facebook and Google at least. It's
a senior (staff) software engineer.
[https://www.levels.fyi/company/Google/salaries/Software-
Engi...](https://www.levels.fyi/company/Google/salaries/Software-Engineer/L7/)
Not sure about the ER part though.

~~~
nixass
Levels don't scale the same among FAANGs

~~~
dmoy
In particular L7 at Amazon is roughly equivalent to L6 at Google, E6 at
Facebook, 66-67-ish at Microsoft, and 5-ish at apple.

------
refresher
The relevant excerpts from the job listings:

>Analysts must be capable of engaging and informing L7+ ER Principals
(attorney stakeholders) on sensitive topics that are highly confidential,
including labor organizing threats against the company, establish and track
funding and activities connected to corporate campaigns (internal and
external) against Amazon, and provide sophisticated analysis on these topics

>Analysts must be capable of creating and deploying sophisticated search
strings tailored to various business interests and used to monitor for future
risk; Engaging business leaders (L6+) directly is core to this support, and
may cover topics including organized labor, activist groups, hostile political
leaders.

>Analysts are expected to close knowledge gaps by initiating and maintaining
engagement with topical subject matter experts on topics of importance to
Amazon, including hate groups, policy initiatives, geopolitical issues,
terrorism, law enforcement, and organized labor

~~~
sangnoir
> ...hostile political leaders.

Nice! It's always good to see corporates fight against elected politicians
that are _hostile_ to projects like HQ 2. This is not dystopian at all.

~~~
Thorrez
Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman paid Twitter employees to spy
on dissidents. He was also the guy that ordered the murder of Jamal Khashoggi.
One of the spied-on dissidents was a friend of Khashoggi.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/former-
twit...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/former-twitter-
employees-charged-with-spying-for-saudi-arabia-by-digging-into-the-accounts-
of-kingdom-critics/2019/11/06/2e9593da-00a0-11ea-8bab-0fc209e065a8_story.html)

~~~
sangnoir
1\. MBS was not _elected_ \- a qualifier I included intentionally.

2\. What Twitter would have needed was a _counter-intelligence_ analyst
(reactive), as opposed to Amazon's proactive intelligence post. Now that I've
written it out, what twitter needed was better _security_ \- not COINTEL.

3\. _If_ companies start dabbling with intelligence and counter-intelligence
against political actors directly (instead of offloading to state apparatus
like the FBI), then we are reaching _Deus Ex_ levels of Dystopia

------
anoxor
Having been a part of a union I was mandated to enter when I took the job
until the supreme court ruled that wasn't legal, actual unions are a far cry
from how they are portrayed as helping the worker.

I would honestly do anything in my power to not have to work in a union again.
They are set up as antagonistic between administration and workers, and adds a
layer of bureaucracy that I've only seen be negative. I've worked with people
who effectively could never be fired and were so bad at their jobs they spread
negativity with everyone they encountered.

~~~
Accujack
Some people like unions, I think because they're lucky enough to have had a
good experience, or to be part of a union that was not decayed by age or
special interests.

Unions should not be needed... the governments who represent the people
working should provide the necessary protections for workers without unions
being needed.

Unions are a way for some people to get what all workers should have by
default.

~~~
TaylorAlexander
The government will never be as in tune with the needs of the workers as the
workers themselves.

I think organized labor is a very good idea. We can see in the US how workers
have been put in ever more precarious situations since the labor unions were
significantly weakened 30-40 years ago.

But actually I don’t think having a normal corporation with a board of
directors and then a union at odds with that board really makes sense. To me,
worker owned cooperatives make a lot of sense.

I am coming to appreciate that there is however no one size fits all solution.
So I look at this like “more of X would help Y”. And I do think more organized
labor as unions or coops would help workers (in the USA where this is an
issue). In the USA workers generally need better health care, maternity and
paternity leave, predictable working hours and better pay.

I did however recently learn that in Germany apparently the big companies have
representatives from labor in the board, and then they have another board that
supervises them which is half labor. I’m fuzzy on the details but it was
described in the linked lecture below which is pretty good!

[https://youtu.be/8iHeh0iRykw](https://youtu.be/8iHeh0iRykw)

~~~
sudosysgen
I think worker-owned cooperatives do make a ton of sense and bridge the
interest gap between employers and employees. When the interests of the unions
align with the interest of society at large in that we want to promote
productivity, it fixes a lot of things.

~~~
TaylorAlexander
Agreed. Germany has kept so many factories (it would seem) because labor
doesn’t want to offshore their own jobs, even if management is indifferent.

~~~
sudosysgen
I think you might be interested in what Richard Wolff has to say.

~~~
TaylorAlexander
I’ve met him! He signed my copy of Democracy at Work. So yes you’re right! :)

~~~
sudosysgen
Damn, lucky you! Anyways, I'm glad my prediction was accurate :)

------
whoisjuan
This is just proof that not everyone is following the same narrative that
you’re personally following or understands reality the same way you do.

It’s beyond me how that job post would make sense to anyone besides someone
who is disconnected from the usual contending rhetorics Amazon is involved in.

Nobody raised a flag on how that would look like for them? You gotta be pretty
oblivious to read that and say “yeah that looks good to me”.

I’m not even discrediting the value or purpose of that particular position
since I have zero context besides the ad but I don’t understand how can you
sprinkle those terms and reference those specific groups without reflecting
deeply how it could be perceived.

~~~
ryanmarsh
Are you commenting on the optics or the ethics?

In a broader context, I don’t understand how others see this as a victory. As
if taking the job post down means it’s not still part of their strategy.

~~~
whoisjuan
Mainly on the optics. I know that’s shallow but I’m commenting on how it looks
because perhaps that’s a symptom of something deeper.

Maybe people involved on these projects are so oblivious that it never
occurred to them that they may be contributing to something that could be
borderline unethical.

What’s kind of ridiculous about this is that you can tell these job
requirements were written by a lawyer or similar. People that are trained and
presumed to have a somewhat acute skill to evaluate the ethical complexities
of a situation.

------
davisr
It's so nice to know they group "organized labor" in with "terrorism" and
"geopolitical issues."

I will never purchase anything from an Amazon-related company.

~~~
nix23
>"organized labor" in with "terrorism" and "geopolitical issues."

For sure, all three are bad for the online shopping business...long live the
unlimited capitalism!!

BTW: When did you heard "Freedom Fighter" the last time in the "Free Press"?

------
motohagiography
Why would Amazon want to prevent workers from unionizing? Look what it did for
teaching, policing, mail delivery, port security, taxi driving, waste
management, public service, and construction.

~~~
ouid
I think there is a growing part of america that is coming around to the idea
that the path to more negotiating power for laborers is not unions. It is
through basic income and social safety nets.

~~~
mattacular
How would basic income and social safety nets increase labors negotiating
power?

~~~
ouid
I assume you're asking this question in good faith.

Negotiating power is derived _exclusively_ from the ability to walk away. When
walking away from your employment means being evicted, starving, and being
unable to afford medical care, your ability to do so is crippled.

~~~
mattacular
I was and all of the replies so far are assuming UBI would cover all basic
necessities in the long term in every part of the country. Many people with
above avg income TODAY struggle with medical bills and even housing. So I'm
not sure I buy the argument that a UBI would be able to cover them unless many
other things change first.

~~~
filoeleven
Hence the need to strengthens social safety nets too. Universal health care
removes the medical costs problem for individuals (I’m not weighing in on its
societal cost here except to say that other countries manage it).

A UBI should cover the cost of housing and food, though it does not guarantee
that you can live in a highly-sought after area without other income. That
must be factored into employee compensation in the same way that it already is
for desirable jobs today. It puts more pressure on cities to ensure that
close, affordable housing exists for the lower-wage workers like retail and
service workers who help make those cities desirable places to live. A job at
a swanky downtown coffee shop with an hour commute becomes a lot less
attractive if I can ditch that job and the transit costs without worrying
about my basic survival. So the coffee shop has to increase pay or lose its
employees and close up. Its downtown location and clientele will either absorb
the price increase, or downtown will become a less competitive living space
due to the loss of the business.

A UBI will not remove all of the reasons someone can’t pack up and leave if
the area is too expensive, there are lots of human factors in play, but it
will increase people’s ability to move elsewhere without having to fear for
their very survival.

~~~
mattacular
Ok thanks for your response. I do agree that a UBI could go a lot further if
it was implemented alongside universal healthcare and those two things
together would significantly increase your bargaining position as a worker.

------
AsyncAwait
I very much doubt they no longer intend to hire somebody for such activities,
this was just way too much in the open.

~~~
AndyMcConachie
[https://pinkerton.com/](https://pinkerton.com/)

~~~
shadowgovt
They still operate. Among the things they do: secret shoppers at sports
stadiums to confirm that the vendors selling alcohol are carding.

------
Barrin92
Is that even legal? I thought the US or most states at least like most other
countries have laws against undermining the ability of employees to organise.

~~~
lordofgibbons
If you've ever worked in retail, one of the first "training" videos they show
you is an anti-union informational video.

One of the big points of the videos is to report union organizers to
management ASAP.

This kind of training is extremely common for low wage jobs in the U.S. If
almost all large retailers are doing it, it mustn't be illegal, or not
enforced.

~~~
jwilber
Saw these videos during my first job (cart attendant at Target). This behavior
happens at every big company, both in and outside of tech.

I remember the video being incredibly weird - they basically posited unions as
bad because nonmembers would feel socially isolated from member. Eg - in one
clip two workers would be gossiping about info from a members-only meeting and
the moment a nonmember walked up to them, they became quiet and it turned into
this strange teen drama.

------
interrupt_
It seems perfectly fine and honest from them. Did anyone expect any different?
I'm not saying it's bad, just that's the reality of the job.

~~~
save_ferris
It seems perfectly fine and honest to post a job listing and then take it down
hours later due to backlash, claim it was a mistake, and refuse to answer
follow-up questions on it? What part of that sounds honest to you?

~~~
fsckboy
they honestly posted a job, they honestly got backlash, they honestly decided
it was a mistake, they honestly refused to answer follow-up questions. What
part of that is not honest?

Honestly, I think you simply don't like that they don't agree with you 100%
and act as you would have them act, and you should honestly admit that, and
honesty would require that you stop accusing them of being other than honest
on the basis of what you outlined.

~~~
apendleton
Yeah, (dis)honesty isn't what was noteworthy about this. It's just optically
very strange. Like, the fact that they employ people to do this is totally
unsurprising to me, but the fact that they're willing to say so in public job
posting seems really tone-deaf. Like, what hiring manager thought this was a
good idea, and how oblivious must they be of how Amazon is publicly perceived?

------
TazeTSchnitzel
They must have found the perfect candidate!

------
techdevangelist
Or maybe they found their candidates based on the free publicity around the
posting..

------
newbie789
It's fascinating how emotional of a topic this is on HN. A lot of people seem
to be taking a staunch binary, black-and-white, us-vs-them approach to this
issue.

I've known friends that hate their unions (usually retail), and those that
love their unions (electricians, UPS drivers etc.) These are of course just a
small group of anecdotes and not representative of a comprehensive dataset so
I don't really have a strong opinion one way or another if the question is
"are unions horrifically evil or a godsend that's universally necessary."

The framing of this type of debate doesn't seem to foster good faith
discussion.

My only personal experience with being in a union was a call center job I had
when I was 18. I don't recall dues being much, and everybody got full health
coverage (including dental and vision) at 25 hrs/wk, and that ended up being a
big draw for a lot of people in the area. So that was pretty cool.

I've also worked at a lot of places that weren't union where the employees
were paid well, received benefits and treated fairly. That was also pretty
cool.

I guess to me if I were to have an opinion it'd be something along the lines
of "If people want to unionize, they have a legal right to do so, and I don't
have any particular issue with that. If it works out with a positive outcome,
great! If it doesn't, that sucks!"

I'm definitely not in favor of people being bullied or misled to go either way
on this issue. It literally just seems like something people should talk about
in good faith and make their decision accordingly. It's just a choice.

~~~
ashtonkem
There are two separate issues here. They’re only tangentially related.

1) Unions, good or bad?

2) Is it appropriate for a company like Amazon to spy on their work force to
stop them from unionizing, as compared to persuading their work force that
unionizing would be bad?

~~~
newbie789
The majority of my post was addressing the way that this is being discussed on
here. There have been a lot of nasty comments on this issue ranging from
accusing people of being Pinkertons and bots, to posts about declining
meritocracy etc.

It seems as though this thread has had a whole lot of posts conflating the two
issues you mentioned and it just muddies the waters imho.

As I mentioned, I think it should be a good-faith discussion across the board
and I'm not a fan of bullying or misleading people.

I could be misunderstanding this but the discussion about your second point
has been in some cases in this thread been supplanted by people arguing about
who is on the "right side" rather than the more immediate discussion of "is
this an acceptable practice?"

Like I said earlier, it's really fascinating how emotional this gets.

------
NiceWayToDoIT
While being in Basic Income meetings frequent subject was "what will happen to
people rights when AI takes over" sadly this is example of the answer of what
is the most probable outcome...

------
backtoyoujim
Never ask the drivers about unionizing. I'm not saying that they will report
it to their boss who will mess with your orders and deliveries.

But I am also not not saying that.

~~~
dylan604
A nod is as good as a wink to a blind man. Got something that helps you lean
towards that conclusion?

------
gonzo41
Jeff has a lot of money. Surely workers rights don't hit the bottom line that
hard. Does Jeff not know that everyone will remember him for this behavior?

~~~
throwaway894345
> Does Jeff not know that everyone will remember him for this behavior?

This presupposes that Jeff cares about his legacy. I genuinely don't know what
drives him; my best guess is 'making Amazon ever more successful'.

~~~
me_me_me
Wasn't there an article about him saying that he fancy himself as real life
capt. Picard?

~~~
hevelvarik
Ok haircut checks out everything just fell in to place

------
scohesc
"Made in error!"

The excuse heard round the world.

~~~
not2b
The error was that they stated so bluntly in a public job listing that they
wanted a union buster with an intelligence background. They still are looking
for someone like that, of course (or many someones), the error was that the
job posting wasn't written in a properly deniable way.

~~~
acephal
Maybe they can ask Sammy Gravano for recommendations

------
downvoteme1
They already have a company stores. Just hire your own police force and we can
be back to colonial America .

------
Qwertious
HN title: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing
threats’

My thoughts after reading the title: "Oh good, I always thought Amazon was
scummy and lacked integrity, but credit where credit is due, _they did good
here_.

.

The actual article's title and body: Amazon deletes _their own_ job listings
for union-busters, as a PR response due to public outcry.

My thoughts: #$%@!

------
kelnos
It's mind-boggling to me that we allow this sort of thing, and that brazenly
putting on a job description that you want to hire someone to help thwart
legally-protected labor organizing isn't something a company can get fined --
or worse -- over.

------
YetAnotherNick
I am surprised from the reactions here. What is the best way to deal with
worker union blackmails according to you? I know people like to portray worker
and amazon as good guy and bad guy, but I think most of us has seen some
demands that are pretty outrageous from them. I think it is best if both sides
have contact person with whom they can negotiate.

Don't get me wrong, I think worker unions are essential for pushing the
demands of underprivileged and should exist, but nobody should agree every
demand from them.

~~~
GavinMcG
Unions don't end up with outright control over business. Generally speaking,
companies and unions _do_ continue to negotiate throughout the term of a
contract, which negotiations are formalized in Memoranda of Understanding. And
during contract negotiations, if negotiations over a particular issue stall,
the law empowers companies to make a "last and final" offer, which is then
included in the contract presented to the workforce. (This is U.S.-specific.)

The idea that a company must "agree to every demand" from a union seems to me
a strawman. Bargaining ideally maximizes net value, and true collapses in
bargaining are rare.

"Outrageous" demands that _are_ met, therefore, represent a company's
unwillingness to reallocate the value of those demands towards other contract
elements (that is, to say "we can't do that, but we'll offer this instead").
If they were truly too costly, the company would have either a) refused the
terms, or b) failed to bear the cost and gone under.

~~~
YetAnotherNick
Yes, that's why amazon is hiring people who are expert in negotiations.

------
m0llusk
This is actually a really interesting recursive algorithm: That is, the job
listing for analysts to track labor organizing threats turned out to be a
labor organizing threat.

------
tehjoker
Man, it sure would suck if the lowest ranked and most precarious Amazon
employees got a bigger piece of Bezo's pie. What an awful world that would be.
/s

------
coldpie
It's too late this year (I bought some cat food during the winter), but next
year I'm shooting for zero orders from Amazon.

~~~
architectonic
This is what counts most!

------
baron816
I don’t know why this is even controversial. American style unions are bad for
business, plain and simple. And Amazon is legally required to put the
interests of its investors first. Amazon is going to be doing whatever it can
to discourage unionization, that’s just what’s going to happen, and I find it
hard to blame them.

~~~
dcre
Maybe it's controversial because it's blatantly illegal under the National
Labor Relations Act.

[https://twitter.com/MattBruenig/status/1300856270572916736](https://twitter.com/MattBruenig/status/1300856270572916736)

~~~
refurb
Gathering information on union organizing is illegal? I don’t think so.

Spying, yes, but I don’t see that in the description.

And your Twitter post is gone.

~~~
dcre
[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/3azegw/amazon-is-
spying-o...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/3azegw/amazon-is-spying-on-
its-workers-in-closed-facebook-groups-internal-reports-show)

~~~
refurb
Well if those allegations are true, then Amazon is gonna have some 'splainin'
to do to the NLRB.

------
centimeter
An interesting thing from Amazon’s labor organizing risk rubric: increased
diversity drastically _decreases_ the risk of employees organizing. In case
you were curious why all the big companies are so strongly pro-diversity,
that’s a pretty compelling reason for them.

------
skeptic76
As far as my understanding goes, companies of any size have the right to
exercise a sort of capital strike at their discretion. The perfectly legal
shuttering of The Gothamist after their newsroom unionized a while back is a
good example of that (the story is a fascinating read!) (0)

I would honestly love to hear from those that aren't favorable towards unions
about why it's acceptable for business management and ownership to punitively
destroy jobs and value over ideological issues, but it's unacceptable for the
employees to have that option as part of collective bargaining?

(0) [https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2017/11/03/561830256...](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2017/11/03/561830256/billionaire-owner-shuts-down-dnainfo-gothamist-sites-
a-week-after-workers-unioni)

------
badrabbit
Why is this a surprise? If you work in infosec at any multinational you would
know activists (hacktivism) and hostile nations/leaders are a serious threat
you track. Has no one heard of Dataminr? What do people think it's used for.
The "labor" part is a bit unusual but given their business it kinda makes
sense.

This reminds me of how back in 2016 right before November US elections,I read
threat intel reports and conference style presentations from threat intel
vendors talking in detail about Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump and the Steele
dossier, this was before buzzfeed decided to publish it (all other media
refused at the time). This is all public stuff now but big corps are very
interested in learnig about the latest strategic intel so they can adopt. And
that's perfectly fine so long as no laws are broken. This is similar to how
big corps get a scoop on emargoed CVEs so they can patch before it's made
public. A lot of times this is what intelligence community people do when they
want to settle down and make money. I'll bet good money whoever they hire has
background at FBI,NSA or DIA.

~~~
coldpie
Who said it was a surprise?

~~~
badrabbit
We're seeing it here because people made a big deal out of it on social media.

------
dakial1
US law does not protect employees' right to unionize? I'm from Brazil where we
have some strict (too strict IMHO) labor laws and this type of hunt (and
punishment) for union makers is wildly illegal here.

~~~
dcre
Technically this is probably illegal in the US as well, but enforcement is
very weak.

[https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-
right...](https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-
rights/employee-rights)

------
vonwoodson
Never forget The Ludlow Massacre:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre)

------
e12e
Should probably be merged with:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24345259](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24345259)

Even if not quite a dupe.

------
rightbyte
How is workers' rights for white collar at Amazon? I guess the company culture
is ever prevailing, or is it a apartheid system?

------
imglorp
> The National Labor Relations Act of 1935 is a foundational statute of United
> States labor law which guarantees basic rights of private sector employees
> to organize into trade unions, engage in collective bargaining for better
> terms and conditions at work, and take collective action including strike if
> necessary.

It's truly late stage capitalism if companies can impede labor organizing so
brazenly in public like this and have only encouragement at the federal level
to go further. HN a few days ago (the 787 structural issue) was also talking
about Boeing closing plants and sacrificing safety to avoid union labor.

~~~
imcoconut
do have the link(s) for that Boeing thread?

~~~
imglorp
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24305067](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24305067)

The whole thread is interesting.

------
smitty1e
What Amazon needs is competition.

~~~
switch11
agreed

------
hpen
Do unions really provide a better work experience for the worker? Genuine
question.

~~~
heavyset_go
According to the BLS, white collar union members in the US have higher
salaries, better benefits, more paid time off, and better retirement benefits.
They also report having higher life satisfaction[1].

The same trend exists for blue collar union members, too.

[1] [https://cpb-
us-w2.wpmucdn.com/blogs.baylor.edu/dist/2/1297/f...](https://cpb-
us-w2.wpmucdn.com/blogs.baylor.edu/dist/2/1297/files/2010/09/Union_Membership_and_Life_Satisfaction_10.27.14-nlder4.pdf)

------
bassman9000
Yet another step towards NeoFeudalism, with The Corporations as the new Lords.

------
civilized
Bemused at the knee-jerk downvotes against anyone who has an opinion on unions
in EITHER direction.

As in so many internet spaces, partisan zealots are degrading our ability to
converse. I hope the mods figure out how to keep them from turning HN into yet
another dunghole.

------
puranjay
At what point would it be unethical to continue using Amazon?

------
Animats
They can just outsource the work to a union-busting company.

~~~
e12e
Isn't vertical integration and in-sourcing Amazon DNA?

------
bitemealienboi
This is not unexpected. Merely the product of capitalism.

We build an economic system that rewards selfishness and drive for profit at
all costs. Successful companies generate profit. More profit is generated by
charging the highest cost for the lowest quality product and paying the worker
as little as possible.

Unions threaten that profitability. Its simple math. Its cheaper to hire
analysts to track and snuff out labour movements than it would be to
capitulate to the demands of any labour movements that formed, such as wage
increases or benefits.

Why are we shocked and appalled when the system we created does what it does
best?

------
bg24
Off-topic - US should hire lots of intelligence analysts and AI experts to
track social network driven threats to our nation.

------
efficax
Pinkertons!!

------
TazeTSchnitzel
It perhaps shouldn't be surprising that a website for wannabe capitalists
views workers having greater negotiating power extremely suspiciously, yet is
enthusiastic towards employers having near-absolute power over their
employees.

------
wnevets
Whenever unions are mentioned on HN there always seems to be a coordinated
effort to attack them in the comments, very interesting.

~~~
umvi
Maybe because a lot of people on HN are small business owners, and unions take
power away from business owners and can and will force you to do things to the
detriment of your business if they deem it in the best interests of the union
members.

~~~
paxys
Most of people on HN work at large tech companies. In my experience the
majority consensus in the industry is that a union would do more harm than
good, but of course that is infinitely debatable.

~~~
josefx
> the majority consensus in the industry is that a union would do more harm
> than good

Most people also think they are smarter than average. I have seen people that
thought they were great at negotiating their own wages/benefits in a
ritualized yearly pissing match with their boss only to be outdone by new
hires. Lots of overinflated egos around that would rather rip their own arms
of than pull on the same rope.

------
GoodJokes
At some point you have to question people that choose to work at Amazon who
have other options. At the very least.

~~~
yibg
I worked at Amazon and I had other options. What about me do you have to
question?

~~~
em-bee
were you aware of amazons practices before you started to work there? if yes,
how did that factor into your decision to take the job?

~~~
yibg
Do you mean specifically around their anti union stance?

It wasn’t widely in the news back then. But I also don’t want to be part of an
union and most of the unions I’m aware of in North America are not shining
examples. So I’d be ok with working there today given what I know.

~~~
em-bee
i wasn't looking specifically at that, but anything they are doing to take
advantage of employees, third-party sellers or customers, etc.

that said, i really just wanted to elaborate on the question itself, without
expecting a detailed response because i don't think it's fair to single out
individual employees for working at a company with issues. even if you can
change jobs easily, other companies are not necessarily better, and they may
have other problems.

with that in mind i appreciate your response even more.

------
throWaythxMod
Why doesn't Amazon do what all monopolies do, lobby the government and cause
Regulatory capture to corner the market?

It's easy, spend 100M dollars on a law that makes warehouse labor a mandatory
union.

Mom and pop companies can't afford to fill out government/union paperwork for
their 3 employees and customers can't go to cheaper alternatives.

But this means Amazon and Amazon employees win.

~~~
SQueeeeeL
Unions are probably the biggest threat to Amazon in the long term, as their
interests are directly against Amazon, they'd rather there be 100 competitors
they can buy out/drive out of business one at a time; then a single union who
could easily shut them down (by striking)

------
andrepd
Disgraceful. But will anything be done, judicially, legally? Not a chance.
Tells you all you need to know.

~~~
shadowgovt
I'm pretty sure it isn't illegal to seek out an employee with strike-busting
knowledge.

~~~
fault_lines
It is, however, illegal to engage in, or create the impression of engaging in,
surveillance of union activities.

~~~
shadowgovt
.

~~~
fault_lines
I'm sure they could finagle a job description to say this and maybe even get
away with it, but unfortunately the job description they did use was
unambiguously "spying on labor organizing", which makes it an open and shut
case.

------
ancorevard
I've not seen good come out of unions in decades.

Example of unions that are net negative for society: police unions, teacher
unions.

~~~
horsemessiah
Teachers unions are definitely not a net negative...

~~~
pb7
Teachers unions exist at the detriment of children's education.

------
hoorayimhelping
This article is ridiculous. It makes a bunch of unfounded assumptions and
provides very little in the way of facts to support its claims. Did anyone
actually read the job postings before jumping to conclusions?

> _Monitor various collection platforms for incidents that pose direct and
> indirect risk to Amazon operations, personnel, or brand;_

There is nothing in there about union busting or making sure employees don't
organize. This author is naive to think that Amazon isn't dealing with state
level threats. They likely need state level intelligence.

[https://web.archive.org/web/20200901125940/https://www.amazo...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200901125940/https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/1026060/intelligence-
analyst)

[https://web.archive.org/web/20200901142713/https://www.amazo...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200901142713/https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/1213610/sr-
intelligence-analyst)

~~~
Jasper_
> There is nothing in there about union busting or making sure employees don't
> organize.

Literally from your own link:

> Analysts must be capable of engaging and informing L7+ ER Principals
> (attorney stakeholders) on sensitive topics that are highly confidential,
> including _labor organizing threats against the company_

(emphasis mine)

