
Ask HN: Are ergonomic keyboards really useful? - janees
Are ergonomic keyboard really useful? What is your opinion on Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 keyboard?<p>I would really appreciate if you could share your experience.
======
rmc
I have a Natural 4000 and love it.

It all depends if you have suffered from RSI. I used to type on a normal
laptop keyboard all the time. Then I got pains along the top of my forearms,
i.e. RSI. I switched to an 4000 and I haven't had that pain since.

The most important thing to do is be aware of your body. If you get stiff or
sore or pains or certain joints/muscles feel tired, that's your body trying to
tell you that you are doing something wrong. Listen to your body, adjust how
you do things.

~~~
janees
Thanks for sharing, For the past week,i feel slight pain on finger joints; so
being a bit cautious, as it can be related to RSI. If i stop using keyboard
for sometime it goes away. but will be back after typing for sometime.

~~~
rmc
That sounds like RSI. But don't just listen to random people on the internet,
go talk to a doctor or a physio.

What territory are you in? Are you an employee? If EU, there is EU law saying
that all employers must do an ergonomic assessment of a workplace.

~~~
janees
I am based in India, and is self employed.

------
mnbvcz
My arms lit up with flames, that's how bad my RSI got. The ergonomic keyboard
helped, but only psychologically: I got attention for my problem.

So I moved on with my life. Gave up, did no longer insist on my genius. My
problems are gone ever since. RSI isn't in the movement, it is the stress that
motivates them.

I'm still a genius, but a much more deliberate and respected one.

So get a life? Accept that society is wrong about just about everything. But
it exists nevertheless. It is an exploit of your human nature: you were born
as its loyal child.

You thought you could win society, but you can't fight, and win, something
that does not care about you. Society disposes of you.

So meet the rest of us that didn't have the chance you have to begin with. We
have common sense but we are denied and oppressed by folks like you, that try
to escape our fate, get your glory, by bringing that fate upon us.

From our point of view, you are really stupid, to the sad point of being a
criminal. But hey don't worry, God doesn't exist, now does he?

Of course you may have missed the point, that society promises to make you a
God, but only if you accept it as God and abandon our humanity. This choice is
what you are trying to avoid, thus pushing yourself into RSI.

Recognise the dragon. The flames are your own. You can type that on any
keyboard you want.

------
rodh257
I use a computer for most of the waking day, and started getting bad wrist
pain last year. I replaced my work keyboard with the 4000 and the pain went
away within days. If you look at how your hands sit when typing, they come in
on an angle, and you bend them slightly to suit a rectangular keyboard, the
ergonomic keyboards simply leave your wrists at their natural position.

They are very cheap, and a great investment.

~~~
zachgreen
+1 for the 4000. Replaced my old stock keyboard at work about 6 months ago,
and I will never go back.

------
gglanzani
I switched about a month ago to a SafeType keyboard[^1], which is a "vertical
keyboard". My first thoughts went to the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000, but
I could find a second-hand SafeType for slightly more than 1/10th of its
price. So I really could not say no. The experience is that I don't need to
take "wrist breaks", i.e. breaks I took every 10 minutes when I was furiously
typing (like I do now), but I only stop every 50 minutes or so.

Of course a vertical keyboard is way better for you wrists than (almost) any
other keyboard, but still anything ergonomic is __way __better than anything
not ergonomic.

[^1]: <http://safetype.com/>

------
i386
The 4000 is the best ergonomic keyboard I've used. Microsoft don't get enough
credit for their hardware division.

------
therabidbanana
I've been using the Kinesis Advantage for about 8 months, and I'd say
ergonomic keyboards are definitely useful.

The biggest factors in RSI tend to be taking frequent breaks and making sure
you desk and chair are set at proper heights, but after doing those things I
was still having frequent wrist pain and decided to look into more ergonomic
devices.

I started with the MS 4000 and the Kinesis Vertical Mouse
(<http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/evoluent.htm>), but after a few weeks was still
having pain and it was starting to get worse. Your mileage may vary, but I
found the MS 4000 to be just about the same level of comfort as a standard
keyboard. It didn't really offer anything more than having a bit of a split in
it. The vertical mouse seemed to help on days when I was using the mouse a
lot, but on days with lots of typing, I was still getting pain.

I decided to bite the bullet and get the more expensive Kinesis Advantage.
After getting used to it, my pain went away, so I'd say it was worth the extra
cost. Maybe it's just the sunk cost of relearning to type on a weird shaped
keyboard makes me want to feel like the time was worth it - but I suppose it
doesn't matter as long as the pain is gone. Also, it's just really cool
looking which is good for nerd cred in the office. :D

------
Jd
Ergonomic keyboards ease strain when one is typing a lot, which can easily
happen when one types for a living. They are a necessity for many who end up
with wrist strain (I had my first serious episode at age 17, another one at
age 22, and another one at age 24).

They also can enable you to type faster. This isn't very important for coding,
but it may be important in a variety of other contexts depending on what you
do. I've been trying to push over 90 awpm myself.

Here are the keyboards I've had and tried:

MS Natural Elite, classic, affordable, does everything right. I feel the same
way about this keyboard as I do the classic MS intellimouse, which was
superceded by (IMO) inferior products. The spacebar felt a bit loose and broke
on me a couple of times.

MS 4000, never felt as smooth to me as the Natural Elite, but easier to
obtain. I think they made the spacebar more stable, but not as easy to reach.
I was in the habit of putting my natural elite in my lap and pounding away,
the adjusted curvature of this model didn't allow this and otherwise annoyed
me.

Kinesis Advantage, major price tag and major pain to use if you have to use a
mouse periodically. Also more difficult to adjust to. That said, gives you a
slight advantage w/ typing speed (+10 or so words per minute) and allows you
to easily touch type the numbers, something that very few people can do. Also,
very very comfortable.

Do you really need an ergonomic keyboard? Depends on what you do. I
predominately use a laptop keyboard (on my 13" Air) these days and haven't had
a major issue with strain for some years, largely because (I assume) I do
other wrist intensive exercises (primarily yoga). That said, if I ever did
something again where I really needed to push 100 wpm, esp. over an extended
period of time, I would definitely crack out my ergo keyboards.

~~~
steventruong
_They also can enable you to type faster._

Do you happen to have any reputable references for this? I'm truly curious.
For years people have continually spread the idea that typing on an ergonomic
keyboard could allow you to type faster but it seems like everyone spreading
the message are people who heard it from others and/or just relaying the
message without any real evidence that suggests so (or maybe I just never
personally came across any).

I have friends who type in the 130-150 wpm range using a standard keyboard,
and I myself border around 100, so its hard for me to believe that switching
to an ergonomic keyboard naturally means it'll allow me (or anyone else) to
type faster. As a matter of fact, I've tried years ago to get use to them
purely for speed reasons and no matter what I did, my type speed decreased
drastically. It was awkward and even after giving it a chance for a few weeks,
I just gave up.

While I can agree with the wrist ailments it aims to solve, I often wonder if
the type speed thing is a perception.

For the record, I briefly tried to Google something on the subject before
writing a response here, and came up with nothing (admittedly didn't try too
hard however). This thread sort of peaked my old interest in this speed typing
debate if you will.

~~~
Jd
Yep, I'm about 110 wpm without adjustment last time I clocked on a regular
keyboard, but I can't maintain this for long periods of time. I suspect that
ergonomic keyboards allow you to maintain high speeds, not necessarily to
reach them. I don't personally don't find myself slower on, for instance, my
old natural elite.

My only written reference is the material by "ergonomic experts" included with
my Kinesis Advantage -- a bit on the unreliable side. Would love to know if
you and Google can turn up anything else.

------
rezrovs
I have a Natural 4000 too. I had wrist pain for years and then it got
drastically worse in a few months. My partner recommended the keyboard and
within two weeks my wrist pain was completely removed with no other lifestyle
changes. I've had it for two years and the pain has stayed away.

Apart from RSI relief I find it has also increased my typing speed.

------
mackram
I have had two Microsoft Natural Keyboards (the 4000 and its predecessor). I
chose to go with an ergonomic keyboard even though I dont have RSI(thankfully)
and i have to say that an ergonomic keyboard is the one of the best things
ever. The keyboard allowed me to naturally sit and use a keyboard properly.
Furthermore I stopped having to worry about what to do about my elbows and
just left them be. I have also found that after extensive use of an ergonomic
keyboard, I feel uncomfortable if I switch to a normal keyboard which tells me
that the normal keyboard is putting to much strain on my hands.

In the end I would echo rmc's advice which is to be aware of your body and to
adjust accordingly.

~~~
Jd
Do you mean the classic Natural Elite or the one of the intermediate versions?
The classic Natural Elite still feels a bit better to me than any of the new
versions (including the 4000), which is why I keep a stockpile in my basement.

------
joelbitar
I have the Das Keyboard Silent which is a mechanical keyboard with brown
switches and it helped me a great deal with neck pains partly beacause you
don't have to press so hard and partly beacause I don't move my neck to look
at the keyboard as much (whats the point, the keys are all blank)

I'v tried a bunch of ergonomic keyboards in terms of how the keys are placed
and how the keyboard is split but the only thing that really worked for me was
the switch to a mechanical keyboard. I suggest to try a mechanical keyboard
for a while, I can't say it works for everyone but for me it was a ginormous
difference.

------
mmcconnell1618
I have a MS Natural 4000 too and I always make sure every computer I spend a
lot of time on has one. I do really wish they made a model without the numeric
keypad. I find it ironic that an ergonomic keyboard forces my right hand to
reach to far for the mouse. There is another MS arc style keyboard with a
separate bluetooth keypad but the keyboard isn't quite as good as the 4000.

Anyone know of an ergonomic keyboard as good as the 4000 without a keypad?

~~~
kmiyer
I ran into the same problem myself and started using my left hand for my mouse
-- less travel and surprisingly convenient for most of my normal mouse
interaction (which is primarily scrolling, I tend to use keyboard shortcuts
for most active interaction with content).

------
vital101
I used to program with a regular keyboard, but as I got older I found that
wrist fatigue became more of an issue. I now code on a Microsoft Natural
Ergonomic 4000 and never have any issues. There is a short learning period for
the split keyboard, but I didn't find it slowing me down for more than 4
hours.

------
loup-vaillant
Here is my personal experience:

Split design helps. Straight columns help (compared to staggered keys)[1]. I
don't know first hand about mechanical keys, but nearly everyone say they
help, compared to the cheap membrane keys. I like scissor switch a bit better
than the membrane. Based on that, I'd say your best bet is a Kinesis keyboard
(contoured, advantage), because it has all 3. Do listen to those who actually
tried it however (Jd for instance says that using it with a mouse is a pain).

Another keyboard that looks very promising is <http://trulyergonomic.com/>
(not out yet, and they brag far too much for my taste, but nevertheless looks
promising: flat (easier with the mouse), split, straight, and with mechanical
keys).

Now, about the keyboards I personally experienced: the cheap default keyboard
is the worst by a relatively wide margin. I tried the MS 4000, and the split
design makes things much better. Then I stumbled upon
<http://typematrix.com/>. It is flat, but the straight design more than makes
up for it. I like it much better than my MS 4000. I recommend you use a palm
rest however: without it, your wrists can bend significantly backwards,
defeating the purpose of an ergonomic keyboard.

Note that I speak under the assumption that we all touch type. If you don't,
you should start. It gives a _huge_ boost in comfort. It also helps ease neck
and eye strain, as you don't need to repeatedly glance down at your keyboard.
Finally, without touch typing, ergonomic keyboards are much less useful. I
also recommend that you learn a Dvorak layout, or equivalent for your language
(note that even though Dvorak is optimized for English, it helps many other
languages as well, due to similarities in the frequencies of letters). I found
the gain in comfort noticeable, though less great than touch typing. It also
took me some time to learn (expect 1-4 weeks of greatly diminished typing
speed).

[1]: <http://www.loup-vaillant.fr/articles/better-keyboards>

------
clemst
You might also consider using a dvorak layout. If you're willing to learn it,
pair the dvorak layout with something like the TypeMatrix keyboard
<http://www.typematrix.com/>

That's the best typing experience you'll ever get.

------
sjh
I've had a Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 keyboard for a couple of years, now. Apart
from the (relative) comfort, it's a well-built, sturdy (i.e. heavy)
peripheral, which in itself improves the typing experience, I think.

If you are thinking of switching to one, then be prepared to spend some time
adapting to it. I'm a ~100wpm touch typist, and while at university had used
the 4000's predecessor, but it still took me nearly three months to get back
up to speed after switching to the 4000.

But, having made the switch, I don't find my ability to type on non-ergonomic
keyboards affected in the least; I routinely switch back and forth between my
desktop and Macbook.

------
nrkn
I have a 4000 and have been using various split keyboards (previously Belkin
models) for as long as I've been coding. I've never experienced RSI despite
spending most of every day at a keyboard, but as I never had it in the first
place I can't say for sure that it's down to the keyboard.

The only disadvantage that I can see is that I'm so used to split keyboards
that I find using an ordinary keyboard uncomfortable, that includes my laptop
and netbook too, neither of which I do any serious work on without first
plugging in an external keyboard.

------
coolgus
I'm using the natural keyboards of Microsoft since the first model. I can't
type in a normal keyboard from day 1. It's amazingly comfort and there is no
way I could return back to the standard keyboards. I'm using the pc 14 hours
per day and that includes much typing. I want to believe that the reason I
didn't have any problem with my hands all this time (carpal tunnel) is because
of these keyboards.

Unfortunately Microsoft isn't very fond of this series and since the last
model (Wireless 7000) 2 years ago, it hasn't release any new model.

------
qzio
I really like the kinesis advantage. It made the pain I had in my fingers hurt
a little less.

link: <http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage.htm>

------
sgricci
I used to love my Microsoft Natural Ergo 4000 keyboard. I did find that the
pressure (PSI to press a key) goes up quite a lot after owning one for a few
months, which can cause finger pain if you are coding for long hours.

After having MS Ergo keyboards for about 7 years, I finally switched to a
Kinesis model (<http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage_pro.htm>), and although
more expensive, the pressure has stayed consistent for the 1+ years of owning
it.

------
jimbobimbo
Yes, they are. 4000 is by far the best out there. Caveat: if you use more than
one PC, make sure you have same keyboards for each of them.

------
landon
Have have two of these.

[http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823109...](http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823109143)

One for home and one for work. I've been using them for years. I tried the
4000, but I didn't like the feel of the space bar which is the key you use the
most by far.

~~~
Jd
Yep, I try to keep an extra one or two in the basement myself in case my main
one goes bork. I think the feel is far superior to the 4000. I also put down
the $$$ for the Kinesis and, though I like it a lot in many ways, it is a bit
more than I need. I'm doing this primarily for comfort and speed, not out of
CTS-induced necessity.

------
michaelty
A good review of the 4000:
[http://xahlee.org/emacs/ms_keyboard/ms_natural_keyboard_4000...](http://xahlee.org/emacs/ms_keyboard/ms_natural_keyboard_4000.html)

------
rms
Yes, ergonomic keyboards are great. In general, ergonomics is of sublime
importance but is really easy to ignore for most people.

------
jwee
Wish there was something for distal finger joint pains...find myself typing
with a stylus. Still in my early 20s.

------
jensnockert
I don't know if they ('ergonomic' keyboards) are 'healthier', but I quite
enjoy typing on them.

------
T-zex
related: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=185743>

