
Reducing pollution from boats by switching to electric motors - andyrebele
https://www.purewatercraft.com/a-thousand-cars-off-the-road/
======
ajross
What this article is really saying is "Two stroke engines are outrageously
nasty". Which we knew. They really are dozens of times worse for immediate
pollutants (soot/particulates, hydrocarbons, NOx) than a routine car engine
and catalytic converter. And they're significantly less efficient, so even
their CO2 output is quite a bit higher than a gas engine of the same power.

But they're a tiny market and no one has bothered to try to regulate it. This
just isn't a big thing from a save-the-planet perspective. But it's a nifty
product.

~~~
jimmaswell
Is 2 stroke really that common for personal-use boats? I've only heard of them
running on 93 gas, which is all I see sold at marinas, no oil to mix in.

~~~
liability
I've seen tiny outriggers used for fishing,etc that are two-stroke. Maybe some
jet skis too? I'm not sure.

Certainly anything substantial won't be two-stroke.

~~~
analog31
As I understand it, there are increasing restrictions and calls to ban
2-stroke marine engines for smaller lakes, because the exhaust contains a fair
amount of oil mist that settles on the water.

~~~
liability
If nothing else, the noise is a nuisance on small lakes. I grew up next to a
small community-governed lake on which all gas was banned. People have been
using electric on that lake for ages, which is particularly feasible since
it's a small lake (300 acres or so iirc). Electric for small stuff makes a ton
of sense and has for a long time.

~~~
jabl
My parents-in-law also live by a lake where all ICE's are banned. Mostly
people row, and a few have electric outboards.

It's really wonderfully quiet, even though it's close to a city.

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craz8
For my second link to a Fully Charged episode on YouTube today, they did a
story about this company in Europe refitting older vehicles with electric gear

Their big plan is to have local river barge traffic be managed with electric
tugs instead of diesel, but they’re having fun as they prove the technology.
They have a Jaguar XJS converted to the same system as the tug to help debug
it

[https://youtu.be/7zz3H0pSQ4Q](https://youtu.be/7zz3H0pSQ4Q)

~~~
rasz
That nasty CRT whine (15KHz) made me instantly guess Siemens old timely
brushed system :( You have to be really old to not go insane from hearing it.

------
crazygringo
I've always loved being on the water, but had a kind of instinctual revulsion
at the gas usage, the fumes, the oil that leaks into the water, and the sheer
_noise_ from the engine -- like boating is about being with nature, but the
gasoline aspect just _ruins_ it for me.

I tried sailing, but even then you need a backup motor and to get in/out of
the oil-soaked harbor. (And sailing is a _lot_ of work.)

The idea of electric boats makes me actually interested in the idea of boating
for the first time again... does anyone know if they leak oil just as much
though?

~~~
dylan604
Why would they even have oil to leak? Oil is a lubricant for the extreme heat
conditions of a combustion engine. This is just an electric motor. If you
think about it, you don't put oil in a ceiling fan that runs 24/7.

~~~
crazygringo
I mean, the _buyer_ doesn't, but the factory does. Ceiling fans function with
ball bearings that are oiled, same as bicycles function with chains that are
oiled. Obviously oil doesn't get into the air, but contact with water is a
different matter.

I have zero knowledge about boat motors but had always assumed the oil leakage
had something to do with lubricating movement of the propeller that also
prevented sea water from getting in and corroding internal elements. Is this
wrong? Do electric boat motors function completely without oil?

~~~
dylan604
Yes, electric motors function without oil. They're mainly magnets and coils of
wire and are mostly* friction-less. Boat engines are the same concept as your
car. Air, fuel, spark, piston. In fact, the boat my family had when I was a
kid had an inboard/outboard setup. The engine was a Chrysler V6. It was
fascinating to me as a kid because when the cover was pulled off, the entire
engine was exposed and very accessible compared to it being in a car. Instead
of a transmission connected to a drive shaft, it was connected to some worm
gears that turned the prop. The main difference is a car's leaking oil mainly
falls onto the streets (and gets diluted before hitting the water sources)
where the boat's goes directly into the water.

~~~
gingabriska
If electric motor is anything like PC fan, than it should have bearing? My
fans have either double ball bearing or sleeve bearing and last I heard there
are also some maglev type of fans but I don't know if they are really maglev
or they also have some kind of bearing. Will check later.

------
arthurbrown
Electric cars don't reduce emissions from tyre and brake wear. These particles
make up a huge amount of air pollution at a size small enough to cause health
issues. Once they settle, they are swept into waterways and form the majority
of our microplastic problem.

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135223101...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135223101630187X)

[https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/22/tyres-
an...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/22/tyres-and-
synthetic-clothes-big-cause-of-microplastic-pollution)

~~~
sephamorr
Regenerative braking certainly is reduced by EV's; a Tesla may never replace
its brakes during its lifetime. Reading the paper, the dominant source of
PM2.5/PM10 is resuspension of dust already on the road, rather than tires or
brakes.

~~~
kwhitefoot
> a Tesla may never replace its brakes during its lifetime.

If you live in a northern area where they salt the roads you will need to
reduce regen or perhaps occasionally do an emergency stop to grind the
corrosion off the brake disks in the winter.

I had to have two brake disks replaced at the last service on my 2015 S 70D
because they were too rusty.

But generally speaking you are correct.

------
Steltek
Relatedly, here's a 2012 video of Jamie Hyneman talking about creating an
electric outboard for Mythbusters for quiet operation while filming:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EV2qq2-Lck](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EV2qq2-Lck)

Pure makes a lot of the same claims about noise and performance. They seem to
have upped the appearance though.

~~~
andyrebele
Before we did this outboard, I watched the Jamie Hyneman video you referenced.
Because he doesn't use active thermal management of the cells, I would expect
the cycle life to be ~ 300 rather than the 1500 we expect with this one. Since
battery depreciation totals about 4-5X as much as electricity usage over the
life of the system, not doing thermal management multiplies the cost of an
outing by about 5X. The Hyneman system would effectively pollute more than gas
outboards, because of how quickly the batteries would be consumed.

------
personjerry
My bicycle is infinite times better than an electric car but it doesn't really
serve the same purpose does it?

~~~
notatoad
They could. LA has been painting their streets white to combat the heat island
effect, think how much more effective it would be to replace all their roads
with canals!

~~~
T3OU-736
I think LA is a fairly bad example - drought, desert earthquakes all conspire
very much against that use case

~~~
notatoad
Yeah, it was maybe not an entirely serious suggestion

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gok
...because marine fossil fuel engines are unbelievably filthy.

~~~
deelowe
No marine boat has a muffler. Guess what they use instead?

~~~
andyrebele
The water. So they put the noise underwater, and it sounds quieter to the
operator, so they think they're approaching the fish in a stealthier manner.

------
dylan604
Just tried to find out some information on their Outboard motor. The video
there has got to be up there with one of the worst marketing pieces I've seen
in a long time. There's nothing that gives me any info on the product, what it
is, why it's different, nothing. Looks like somebody had a fun day at the lake
shooting, but had no idea what the footage was to be used for, and then some
poor guy in the edit bay had to make something (maybe the same person?). It's
right up there with the Fyre festival promos. They might as well have shots of
a cheese sandwich rather than the guys in the row boats.

~~~
andyrebele
Ha! Thanks. The video (if you're referring to the one on the web site) is an
attempt to give the viewer a modicum of the feeling you get with a ride in the
boat. The FAQ on the web site, and the specifications listed there, address
the questions you're posing.

------
Accujack
Unfortunately, like many vehicles electric boats are limited to new... no one
offers retrofit parts, and it will take decades before enough of these trickle
down to new owners for them to take the place of existing boats, even assuming
the drives last that long.

I'd convert my boat to electric in a heartbeat if I could retrofit the drive
for a similar cost to a replacement engine/transmission... but that's still
impossible, and probably will be for longer than I'll own it.

Most of the people on the road or on the water don't buy new for very good
reasons. If we're going to limit climate change, there has to be more done for
all those people than just telling them "buy new or go without". An effort
needs to be made by the governments of the world to provide affordable
conversion parts or replacement vehicles for those who will never buy new.

~~~
URSpider94
Torqueedo do offer a range of outboard and inboard motors that can be
retrofitted into existing boats. [https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-
us/products/inboards](https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/products/inboards)

~~~
Accujack
Only for tiny boats, though, and they're quite expensive.

My boat needs two 150kW plus engines to move at speed. I might be able to get
by at displacement speed with two 50kW engines, but something that like isn't
available, and neither is the needed battery pack (Li-Ion, lead is too heavy
to work).

~~~
driverdan
If you can afford a boat with twin 200HP motors you can afford to retrofit it
with electric.

~~~
Accujack
Common misconception. I purchased my boat for $3000, and have spent around
$12000 on it in four years making it safe and cleaning it up.

I don't have the money to pay for a $20,000 retrofit to electric power. I
can't afford a Tesla, either.

~~~
driverdan
That sounds like you got a pretty good deal.

------
TYPE_FASTER
It’s really cool to see advancements in electric boat power. The Hinckley
Dasher has dual inboard Torqeedo drive units. If you’re looking to retrofit
something smaller, there’s a blog out there by a guy putting an electric
outboard on a smaller Whaler.

------
RickJWagner
Maybe for commercial boats that are often in use.

I live where there are quite a few sport fishermen, many have bass boats. But
even the hardcore enthusiasts might go out a day or two a week, for a total of
maybe 10 hours. The vast majority probably put less than 100 hours a year on
the boats.

So..... maybe big reduction in emissions, but only for a short while. The cars
don't make the same reduction, but they're in use a lot more hours.

~~~
rgbrenner
From the article: _Imagine the more mainstream boats, like bass boats, that
can use 20-30 gallons of gas in a day,_

So taking your minimum... 100 hours a year, at 10 hours/day.. that's 10 days *
30 gallons = 300 gallons/year.

A car averaging 30mpg, would use 300 gallons to travel 9000 miles. The average
car travels 13500m/year.. so that's equivalent to 2/3rds of a car co2.

It gets worse for your hardcore enthusiasts... day or two a week.. so 50-100
days or 1500 to 3000 gallons/year. That's equivalent to 45,000-90,000
mi/year.. or 3-6 cars worth of co2.

If you have better numbers, then please provide them.. but it doesn't look
like it's a co2 savings just for "commercial boats that are often in use"

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dade_
Power-boating was going to be my new expensive hobby, but I couldn't get over
the noise and horrible pollution, not to mention direct (usually inadvertent)
leaks of fuel and oil into the lake. So after training and getting my license,
it has been shelved until I learn to sail, but electric will do nicely when it
is ready.

~~~
jimmaswell
The gas is a little expensive but the motor noise seems fine to me and you can
just not have leaks. Rinker 230 Festiva here for reference.

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cjbenedikt
[https://www.google.com/amp/s/spectrum.ieee.org/transportatio...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/spectrum.ieee.org/transportation/marine/electric-
container-ships-are-stuck-on-the-horizon.amp.html)

------
softgrow
Its not just boats going electric with positive results. Electric chainsaws
starting to appear on trial near me for emergency services dealing with fallen
trees. Much less noise, no smell (two stroke) and recharges itself on the
truck. Just need someone to invent a self cleaning and sharpening one :)

~~~
swayvil
I've got an electric chainsaw (Kobalt 40v).

Pros : quiet, clean, light, ultra-reliable

Cons : weak. Not good for cutting up medium-to-large trees. Only good for
softwood under 9", hardwood under 4"

I don't do much serious treefelling these days so I prefer it. And if I need a
Husqvarna 350 or whatever I borrow it.

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13of40
I bought a new outboard for my fish-a-dinghy a few months ago, and I looked
into getting an electric one. The prices are converging, but it seems like
there are serious reliability issues with the (few) electric outboards
currently on the market. I ended up getting a fuel-injected 4-stroke.

~~~
andyrebele
Most of the electric outboards have bad reputations for reliability, as you
said. And the warranties are even shorter than those of gas outboards. But
this one is the first to be designed from the ground up for electric, and
while the warranty hasn't been announced, it will be far longer than those of
gas outboards. The reason the other electric outboards break down so much is
that there are weak links, borrowed from other products (like gas outboards).

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mkw5053
I love renting a Duffy [1] and putting around Newport Bay. I wish there was
something similar but a little more sea-worthy for the San Francisco Bay!

[1] [https://duffyboats.com/](https://duffyboats.com/)

~~~
andyrebele
We took a coaching launch like the one in this article, fitted with the Pure
Outboard, from Pier 52 in SF to Alameda Island and back. (Granted, it was not
the wisest move.)

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viburnum
Nobody needs a recreational power boat in the first place.

~~~
rootusrootus
Start making a list. There are quite a lot of things nobody _needs_. How much
are you ready to sacrifice?

