
Caffeine: A vitamin-like nutrient, or adaptogen - marttt
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/caffeine.shtml
======
acituan
I can help but feel lied to when there is only a laundry list of "good"s and
no analysis on downsides.

When I read "it helps with this" "it prevents this", I always ask "but at what
cost". Can an exogenous molecule that was so adaptive be missed this bad and
now consuming it will just fill that gap we had for millions of years?

Let's not kid ourselves. Concentrated caffeine is a drug and not a nutrient.
We drink it because it is psychoactive and we habituate to it. Try drinking
redbull as a caffeine-naive person or not drinking coffee as a daily drinker.
If an exogenous substance is that potent, it is a drug. (Even though I like it
myself too, it is also pretty shit of a drug in my opinion, with 5 hr half-
life, a dice roll every time whether it is gonna create more sleep than focus
and a steep tolerance curve.) Magic mushrooms also have nutritional value,
nicotine also has some benefits, beer has tons of calories, they might even
have adaptive value with occasional use. You might enjoy them, you might drink
coffee everyday. That is fine. But they are all drugs and not nutrients.

~~~
pdog
A lot of nutrients (e.g., caffeine, vitamin D3, the fiber in raw carrots) are
the closest thing we have to a "free lunch" because the evolutionary pressures
that limited access to these nutrients are gone.

Our brains used to compete for scarce calories and nutrition, but now we can
vastly increase these things with little to no downside.

There is no scientific distinction between food, drugs, and nutrients. They're
all molecules. All that matters is the dosage.

~~~
acituan
> There is no scientific distinction between food, drugs, and nutrients.
> They're all molecules. All that matters is the dosage.

A few micrograms of LSD and a cheeseburger is not different only for their
dosage. One stores solar energy in its molecules in a form we can harvest.
Other crosses blood-brain barrier in a way that alters its functioning
drastically. Their structural-functional organizations are drastically
different, hence the different categories.

Your CPU is also just a bunch of molecules probably as much as your PCs power
button, but one packs a very different nature of consequentiality in that
small "dosage" of matter than the other.

~~~
lalos
The one that stores solar energy crosses stomach barrier in a way that alters
it’s functioning drastically by giving it energy. Who knows if LSD equivalents
found in plants helped proto-humans (from cells to any mammal) develop key
aspects of the brain and therefore we are still receptive to them. Just
because it’s used as a recreational drug today doesn’t mean that “it’s
altering it’s functioning drastically” that’s just today’s society’s opinion
on it or just because today we’re just simply abusing it by using large
quantities of LSD (just like over eating and going obese, you’re drastically
changing the body).

~~~
GuB-42
LSD works more like a toxin than a nutrient. I don't mean that LSD is deadly,
it is actually a pretty safe drug in that regard, but the way it works is
similar to how toxins work.

The way it works is that to some neurons, it looks a lot like serotonin, a
neurotransmitter produced by our own body. In technical terms, it is a 5-HT2A
agonist. But unlike serotonin, it doesn't want to get out, causing the
affected neuron to fire constantly.

Not so different from carbon monoxide, which takes the place of oxygen in red
blood cells and doesn't want to let go.

Even if the effects are completely different, they are both caused a molecule
that mimic what our body normally uses, but not only it doesn't behave
normally, but it is also much more durable. Causing a large effect with a
small dose.

And in fact, LSD is derived from ergot fungi, which are toxic and have causes
many deaths in the past.

~~~
lalos
In the right quantities water is poison too.

~~~
implements
And in relatively modest quantities, if you drink it quickly enough - for
example eight litres over three hours was enough to kill someone.

It’s worth being aware of if of college age and likely to drink a lot, do
various sports, go clubbing and related stuff.

------
starchild_3001
Ray Peat is an interesting researcher. His ideas tend to be original (as in he
does his own research & analysis). Yet, I find a lot of things in his writings
that don't gel with my research or the broader research. Namely, he does his
own selective reading and comes up with a theory---just like everyone else.
E.g. he doesn't recognize hormesis (benefits from fasting or occasional
nutrient deprivation). He also espouses a heavy sugar laden diet such as
drinking orange juice on a continuous basis and avoiding fiber and starches.
He sometimes paints a very black and white picture: XYZ is good, ABC is bad,
ignoring the context or the nonlinear dose response relationship.

Long story short, he's a curious character. I would take his writings with a
grain of salt.

~~~
briefcomment
He speaks as if he's making "black/white" statements, but if you listen to him
long enough, his ideas do contradict each other. I think the most valuable
thing to take away from him is that only you can detect good health by paying
attention and making decisions in real time, and that the optimal combo will
always be in flux. It's like when he constantly restates his bio on radio
shows. He's just a conduit for whatever his intuition tells him is right. I
don't hang on the specifics of his work, but rather the mindset that
intuition, curiosity, and attention will save you.

~~~
evbpcapfxy
Could you clarify what ideas contradict each other?

~~~
briefcomment
As an example, sometimes Ray will say starch is bad, and other times he will
say that starch is compatible with a healthy lifestyle. His stance on most
things is probably the dose and the condition of the body at any given time
determines the nutrient/poison, but he will make firm statements over radio
shows and podcasts because, if I had to guess, he says what he thinks is best
for the audience given the medium and time constraints. Ultimately, you as an
individual will miss things if you rely on someone else's observations instead
of your own. Ray's recommendations are a good starting point, but you will
likely be better off if you have the last word on what you do and do not do.
And Ray would be the first to admit that :).

------
metrokoi
Caffeine gets a lot of love and hate. Personally, I think it's close to a
miracle molecule. What other drug can give such an effective boost to
wakefulness, mood, and focus with the only main side effects being possible
sleep loss and jitteriness/discomfort? Many focus on physical side effects,
but I have never seen any evidence of it negatively affecting mental health,
despite being psychoactive. I have not consumed amphetamine, cocaine, or the
like, but I have tried many legal "nootropics" and all are <= effective
compared caffeine with more side-effects.

I take a small portion of a caffeine tablet under my tongue for exercising and
occasionally for study and work. I am more healthy today than I was a year or
more ago, a large part in thanks to caffeine getting me off my butt to run
when I don't feel like running, and (safely) allowing me to push myself harder
and get a better cardiovascular workout.

Is it accurate to call it a vitamin-like nutrient? No, because obviously it's
not like vitamin D3 or C where very high levels are beneficial and we don't
need caffeine to survive, but it can be taken in moderate doses indefinitely
and still positively impact one's health. It depends on how you define
"nutrient".

~~~
luckylion
> What other drug can give such an effective boost to wakefulness, mood, and
> focus with the only main side effects being possible sleep loss and
> jitteriness/discomfort?

Modafinil. At least for me (and basically everybody I know that tried it) it's
much better than caffeine. Much clearer wakefulness, more focus, less
physical, more deep concentration, and fewer side effects (if any).

~~~
aj-4
I'd rate it above most, but we are not sure about the side effects since there
are no long term studies on it

imo it's good for certain things like coding but significantly reduces lateral
thinking / creativity

kinda gives you "mental tunnel vision"

~~~
luckylion
I agree that it may not be suited for every situation, and I really, really
wish there were more long-term studies, but at least the ones there are (that
I'm aware of) do not suggest horrible results. Given that it produces great
results for many people, I feel like we're missing a massive opportunity by
focusing on "if you're not really ill, you don't need medication".

------
bob1029
I've been off caffeine for going on 40 days now. Work/health were suffering
and I needed to hit the reset button. Some days its rough, but on average the
change is worth it now. Last week I was able to deal with an extremely
stressful event at work without losing my calm. If I had been hopped up on my
usual morning brew under similar circumstances, I probably would have made
some serious career-altering mistakes (not necessarily my career).

~~~
originalvichy
Good work, I know how hard it is to kick it.

------
chrischattin
I have a theory that 50 years from now people will look back on caffeine the
same way we look back on everyone smoking in the 50's. There were tons of
"smoking is healthy" articles back then too, and it was baked into the
culture. Caffeine's negatives are more hidden and second order effects that
come from increased cortisol levels, lack of sleep, adrenal fatigue, etc. I've
done a bunch of research on this and might write it up in a blog post someday.

~~~
chaosbutters314
Drinking coffee doesn't mean you have lack of sleep. I drink 4-10 cups a day
and still easily sleep 9 hours

~~~
rpedela
Caffeine is well established to interrupt sleep. Interrupt doesn't necessarily
mean a person wakes up either. It can mean 9 hours of less restful sleep than
without caffeine. Over the long term, the less restful sleep can lead to other
problems.

~~~
senectus1
I think it effects people differently.

Coffee/caffeine doesn't stop me sleeping, it makes me not want to sleep.

The difference is, I can drink a couple of coffee (long black, strong) then go
to bed and sleep soundly. But I have to argue with myself all the way to
bed... because now I dont feel like I need it :-P

------
sprusemoose
My teeth doctor told me it's bad for my teeth, so I now use a straw to
pumpjack my demon nectar

glorious feast

~~~
DiabloD3
He was incorrect based on the existing evidence.

Sugar-laden diets combined with both a mineral poor diet (ergo, no dental
remineralization) and a constant subclinical dehydration (did you drink your
gallon of water today? no? saliva is the vehicle for said remineralization,
and is one of the first to be hit during early stages of dehyrdation; water is
required to maintain the pH of your mouth) is bad your teeth.

The worst coffee can do is stain already poor enamel. Coffee is hardly acidic,
and its a myth that its more destructive.

Now, if you drink your coffee with sugar? _Thats_ bad, learn to drink it
black.

[https://www.ada.org/en/~/media/ADA/Public%20Programs/Files/J...](https://www.ada.org/en/~/media/ADA/Public%20Programs/Files/JADA_The%20pH%20of%20beverages%20in%20the%20United%20States)

Anything on this list that is below a pH of 5 you should strongly avoid. pH is
a log scale, so, pH of 5 is 10x worse than 6, 4 is 10x worse than 5 or 100x
worse than 6; the hydroxyapatite in tooth enamel starts to dissolve at 5.5,
and coffee is only 5.11, well within your mouth's ability to handle.

If he warned you because you suffer from bruxism, not because of tooth decay,
for most people, just follow the normal rules for coffee that everyone else
should follow: avoid caffeine 6 hours before bed.

~~~
barbegal
I agree with you that acidity is the main cause of enamel erosion. The
correlation between beverage acidity and tooth decay is such that I think we
should highly discourage children from drinking any carbonated or acidified
drink .

I disagree that "pH of 5 is 10x worse than 6, 4 is 10x worse than 5 or 100x
worse than 6". pH is logarithmic with respect to hydrogen ion activity but
hydrogen ion activity is not linear with respect to enamel erosion in a human
mouth [1].

[1]
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S199179021...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1991790211000511)

~~~
im3w1l
Interesting read, thanks. Really drove home the point of how bad soda and
energy drinks are.

------
simias
>Coffee drinkers have been found to have lower cadmium in tissues; coffee
making removes heavy metals from water.

How does that work? Where do the metals go?

Searching in the rest of the article I find:

>Coffee drinkers, for example, have been found to have lower levels of cadmium
in their kidneys than people who don’t use coffee, and coffee is known to
inhibit the absorption of iron by the intestine, helping to prevent iron
overload.

I'm immediately suspicious of the way this is framed (I know many people who
suffer from lack of iron, I guess they should avoid coffee). And what about
the heavy metals then?

~~~
kortex
Phenols/catechols in general tend to reduce (in the electron sense) and
complex with metals. This can be anti-nutrious if binding iron or calcium, or
beneficial, if binding heavy metals.

------
Paddywack
Lets talk about Decaffeinated coffee (asking for a friend...) (a) what
benefits of coffee are not attributable to the caffeine, and (b) does the
decaffeination process introduce any "side effects" in terms of harmful
chemicals etc.

Seriously - I was drinking far too much coffee during lockdown and have
switched 2 days ago to decaf. Too early to tell, but it feels like less
triggering of hyperness...

~~~
mellosouls
This doesn't answer your specific question, but I use a mix of decaf and full
according to time of day.

So through the day it goes: full (morning), low caff (mix) (afternoon), decaf
(evening).

No need for it to be either/or.

fwiw

~~~
thecoppinger
I recently came across some interesting research by the US DoD into optimal
caffeine consumption for alertness based on an algorithm they were developing.
I can't quite recall the details, but you can find a web version of the tool
here: [https://2b-alert-web.bhsai.org/](https://2b-alert-web.bhsai.org/)

Anyhow, as I recall (and I could be wrong), you actually want to start low and
end high. Obviously decaf in the evening may still be good though, given you
want to be able to sleep without detriment.

~~~
Paddywack
Thanks! I also saw research where the optimum I think was drinking a cup of
coffee in the early afternoon 30 minutes or so before a powernap. This beat
(1) No coffee (2) straight coffee, no nap (3) nap, no coffee. I think it
tested alertness in a driving game...

~~~
thecoppinger
No worries, and great input - I'm a huge believer of coffee-naps, I used to go
on about them to friends and family all the time but stopped having them
lately. Thanks to your reminder, I'm going to get back on the wagon.
Appreciate it!

------
ctrlcctrlv
If you're interested in a brief 'story' of caffeine - its roots and history
leading up to its role in society today, check out Michael Pollan's 'Caffeine:
How Caffeine Created the Modern World' audiobook.

It's a short listen (by audiobook standards at least) and explores the the
'good', the 'bad' and everything in between of caffeine and coffee, often
using himself as a lab rat to test theories that he comes across in his
research.

------
DoreenMichele
The one thing that interests me in this piece is the bit about cadmium and
heavy metals and the references at the bottom don't seem to list a study
pertinent to this.

I've used "search page" and I've skimmed through all the titles, but I have
crap eyesight. So maybe I'm missing the reference.

But I would love to see good research relating caffeine or coffee consumption
to somehow helping with heavy metal issues.

~~~
ethbro
The initial phrasing about heavy metals sounded to me like it was referring to
the brewing process (without being specific as to which one).

At first approximation, I'd be surprised if agitating heated water in the
presence of particular matter that increased its acidity, then running it
through a fine woven filter, didn't have _some_ net effect.

As for the exact mechanism and efficacy, that's unfortunately buried under
10,000,000 search results for coffee enema products...

~~~
shrimp_emoji
I would think the heavy metals bit might be about metals in the coffee itself,
from the soil it's grown in. This is common for cacao[0]. What sucks is, iirc,
only the EU has limits for cadmium in food imports (or may in the near
future?). Beyond that, California requires stuff to have a Proposition 65
label if it's too high in cadmium (but California's limit is significantly
higher than what the EU was going to be).

>I'd be surprised if agitating heated water in the presence of particular
matter that increased its acidity, then running it through a fine woven
filter, didn't have some net effect.

Like sifting for gold? xD

0: [https://www.berkeleywellness.com/healthy-eating/food-
safety/...](https://www.berkeleywellness.com/healthy-eating/food-
safety/article/there-cadmium-your-cocoa)

------
presiozo
If you:

1) Cite only the positive studies

2) Don't make any claims about effect size (i.e. correlation strength &
predictive strength)

You can basically make this point about literally any substance with enough
studies on it. Ranging from melatonin to insulin, to idk... probably not
mercury? So I guess that's a strike against 1 and 2 being fully generalizable.

------
etaioinshrdlu
The funny thing is caffeine is produced by the plant to try to poison
herbivores. It’s a very effective insecticide. So are perhaps most other drugs
made by plants.

~~~
jayd16
With the exception of fruit perhaps, isn't almost everything produced to deter
getting eaten?

~~~
simonsarris
Eggs and milk are produced to be eaten (by the new organism) and are as close
to "stuff produced to be eaten" that you get, perhaps. Super nutrient dense
growth broths.

Seeds and legumes are meant to be eaten (by the new plant), but often have
anti-plant-eater defenses (like cyanide), including in fruit. Eggs and milk do
not seem to have such an analogue.

Fat stores are produced to be eaten (by the host itself), alas.

------
alexmingoia
This is stupid.

You can enjoy caffeine and that’s fine. Nothing wrong with that. But it is a
drug. Your body does not need caffeine to sustain itself, like it does
nutrients.

~~~
JoshuaDavid
This proves too much. Consider

> You can enjoy black pepper and that’s fine. Nothing wrong with that. But it
> is a drug. Your body does not need black pepper to sustain itself, like it
> does nutrients.

A definition of "drug" that counts spices as drugs is probably not a useful
definition.

~~~
3131s
Raw nutmeg is actually a very powerful drug, and even dried ground nutmeg has
an interesting long-lasting high if you take enough of it.

I've done it a long time ago... it's really unpleasant to actually consume
that much nutmeg, even in gel capsules, but the feeling is pleasant, warm, and
hazy. I took it in the middle of the day and started to feel the effects late
at night, and then the next morning I woke up sky high. It's a fairly lucid
drug with an strong body high, but I don't recommend it!

------
baxtr
Anyone wondering: The summary is that Caffeine seems to be very good for your
health! So keep on drinking

~~~
amelius
There is more in coffee than caffeine. For example cafestol is a substance
present in unfiltered coffee that is known to cause health problems.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafestol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafestol)

~~~
esperent
I did some reading on that a few months ago when a friend was trying to
convince me to filter coffee using paper (apparently that remove cafestol and
kahweol). It seems like recent studies have shown more mixed results for these
compounds. They can (mildly) increase cholesterol, but are also anti-
carcinogenic in the lower intestine and may help to regulate blood sugar.

> Early studies confirmed that coffee diterpenes (especially cafestol),
> effectively increase human plasma triacylglycerol and low-density
> lipoprotein (LDL), may be a potential risk of inducing some cardiovascular
> diseases [7,14]. However, from a more comprehensive perspective, cafestol
> and kahweol show a remarkable two-faced effect. In addition to the
> deleterious effects on serum lipid levels and liver enzymes in some cases,
> extensive studies have demonstrated that cafestol and kahweol exhibit a wide
> variety of pharmacological activities, including anti-inflammatory, anti-
> angiogenic and anti-tumorigenic properties.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6747192/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6747192/)

------
andy_ppp
I love caffeine and coffee! I used to drink two to three cups per day but for
the last 6 months I’ve been feeling rather unwell when taking it; I start
getting sweaty hands, shakes, heart palpitations, and start feeling sick and
anxious shortly afterwards. I would love to be able to keep drinking coffee
but the price is now too high! I have been drinking decaf coffee which is okay
but I miss the real thing. If anyone knows a way I scan keep my caffeine buzz
without the above I’d love to know...

~~~
Honga
Matcha tea has a bunch of stuff that is supposed to suppress the negatives of
caffeine and keep the positives.

Also the taste is strong enough to be a decent coffee replacement.

~~~
dionian
L-Theanine? goes great with coffee (not mixed, just taken near the same time)
- smooths out the jitters. Probably why Tea is more 'calming'

~~~
d33
Could you point to any research? I asked many doctors but nobody really knew
about the substance nor could tell me whether it's safe to supplement.

~~~
bavell
FWIW, 200mg of L-Theanine is included in my workout recovery supplement.
Research seems sparse but here's what they say about it: (scroll down, click
ingredients tab)
[https://athleanx.com/athleanrx/reconstruxion](https://athleanx.com/athleanrx/reconstruxion)

------
cutler
If caffeine is so good for us and not simply the drug that it is why do I feel
so lousy for at least 2 weeks after giving it up? There is most definitely a
withdrawal effect. Furthermore this article muddies the water between caffeine
and coffee. How many of the listed benefits are due to the non-caffeine
elements within coffee?

~~~
stagger87
By that logic, giving up water for two weeks would lead to withdrawal effects.
Does that make it bad? Not defending caffeine, only pointing out poor logic.

~~~
why-el
The logic is not poor at all, for quite mundane reasons. Giving up water will
kill you, while giving up caffeine for enough time means it is no longer
needed (and it is also, quite obviously, not needed for people who don't drink
it already).

~~~
lazyasciiart
Ok, try giving up fibre in your diet for a while. Or vitamins
A/B/C/D/whatever, or many other nutrients.

------
mcculley
I am impressed at the lengths people will go to rationalize consuming that to
which they are addicted.

~~~
standardUser
I am an avid coffee drinker and a former cigarette smoker. While I won't deny
that caffeine is addictive, the addictive power is so mild that it's mostly
irrelevant. I skip having coffee on some days accidentally. The idea of
accidentally going a day without smoking a cigarette is unfathomable. The
times I've gone without coffee for a few days or weeks I have felt a little
bit sluggish. The times I have gone days or weeks without smoking were
nightmarish ordeals that consumed my every waking thought. Point being, I
would be very careful to assume things about 'addiction' when it's a
phenomenon comes in so many shapes and sizes.

~~~
pengaru
I'll match your single sample of anecdata as a previous smoker from the
midwest and occasional coffee drinker:

I never found nicotine addictive. It never compelled me to increase my
consumption beyond a few cigarettes a day, usually in social settings. I never
became a regular purchaser of cartons of cigarettes. It was purely a social
activity as most my peers were smokers and participating in the smoke breaks
was a huge part of socializing. But it never escalated beyond that, there was
simply no draw and stopping cold-turkey was completely uneventful with zero
physiological effects.

Coffee however, has such a profoundly stimulating effect on me, it completely
derails my life for days after a lone day of consumption. It's a very on-vs-
off modal existence, and if I fall into the on mode for more than a couple
contiguous days, I begin craving it and actively seeking it out. And when I
manage to finally resist those cravings, I end up going through ~three days of
hangover-like withdrawal hell which if I'm not up for enduring will just push
me back on the wagon to make it stop.

For me, coffee/caffeine is far more sinister and addictive than cigarettes.

~~~
doktrin
Without disputing your personal experience, the parents anecdote is reflective
of how most people experience the addictive qualities of nicotine vs caffeine.

[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30061507/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30061507/)

"Conclusion: Dependence to traditional cigarettes and snus seem to be
relatively similar while NR (nicotine replacement) was rated lower and coffee
lowest."

------
carusooneliner
Funny this blog in support of caffeine comes out when I'm two weeks into
kicking my coffee habit. Are people going caffeine-free en masse?

In my case, I paid more attention to what I was consuming and coffee seemed
like a good thing to drop.

------
mcnamaratw
I like coffee. Let's skip the marketing words and look at the data.

------
joemazerino
Coffee and caffeine are not mutually exclusive. Coffee is one of the best
drinks for antioxidants (without milk). Caffeine in large quantities is bad
for the health. Moderate and experiment.

~~~
brokensegue
>antioxidants

the evidence supporting the value of antioxidants is v. weak. indeed some
evidence suggests they increase your chances of cancer.

~~~
mrkstu
Depends- I’ve seen studies like that for supplements, but not for antioxidants
obtained via food.

------
mustachionut
People who aren’t super healthy don’t typically feel like drinking lots of
caffeine. I think that’s a more likely explanation than caffeine having tons
of assorted health benefits.

~~~
chrischattin
I think it's the opposite. People drink caffeine to mask an unhealthy
lifestyle – lack of sleep, hungover, poor diet, sedentary, out of shape, etc.

~~~
kitotik
Haha.

So, your theory is that all the humans over the course of history who consume
caffeine do so to mask generally bad health?

Can I guess that you yourself don’t drink caffeine?

~~~
thebean11
Not arguing one way or the other, but the comment you replied to did not imply
every single caffeine drinker falls into that category

------
dghughes
As someone with acid reflux caffeine is like nuclear waste. I never drank
coffee or tea at all until my mid 30s. Now I have GERD and still drink it, I
should stop.

------
dreamlayers
Is this reasonably balanced?

I'm sure there have been a huge amount of studies of caffeine, and maybe
they're favouring those which make caffeine look good.

------
shrimp_emoji
403

Forbidden

Access to this resource on the server is denied!

It's not easy availing yourself of VPNs as basic Internet hygiene in current
year. :C

------
DabbyDabberson
a "nootropic" in modern parlance

------
jokoon
how probable is it that this study was financed by people who have interests
in selling coffee?

if something is not a medicine, in general, it should deserve more scrutiny.

------
temptemptemp111
Any other article by this guy would be censored from HN due to its anti-
vaccination / anti-mainstream medicine content.

