
Michael Cicconetti - vezycash
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cicconetti
======
gumby
America has cycled back and forth between retributory “justice” (punishment
and “law enforcement officers”) and reformatory (penitentiaries and “peace
officers”). Currently it’s in the most destructive of the first modes, and
seems anchored there by being coupled to a private sector lobby and a
propaganda of violence.

But history has shown it could cycle back to more practical state, as
exemplified by Judge Cicconetti. It doesn’t even require mushy idealism: a
practical view of achieving the cheapest outcome shows that “hammer and tongs”
doesn’t work.

~~~
papln
When was the cycle ever on the side of reformatory, at large? I've only seen
it in local pockets of municipalities.

~~~
gumby
Late 19th century/early 20th century. It's why a number of the prison systems
in the east coast are called "Department of Corrections", and the facilities
themselves often referred to as "penitentiaries".

The Boston municipal jail was shut down a couple of decades ago but when it
was built about a century ago it was intended to be enlightened, providing the
prisoners with light, fresh air, and exercise and allowing prisoners some
internal liberty while being observed. By modern standards it wasn't a very
nice place but at the time it was intentionally much better than the
contemporary standard.

That period was the most revolutionary of any in the US's history, with many
things under experimentation. The "initiative" (i.e. referendum) system used
in various western states dates from this period for the same reason, and
which even the name demonstrates.

------
apo
The first thing this brings to mind:

> Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel
> and unusual punishments inflicted.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)

The article on Judge Cicconetti doesn't mention how many of his alternative
punishments have been challenged on appeal (or if that's even an option).

Let's say a judge wants to do something similar, but in a more malevolent way
supported by the local community. What checks the power of this judge other
than an appeal through the court system?

~~~
paggle
Courts have ruled that punishment must be both cruel AND unusual to qualify.
These sentences are unusual but not cruel. Prison may be cruel but is not
unusual.

~~~
rhcom2
I always wondered how the death penalty passed this test and I guess this is
how. You can certainly say it's cruel but obviously not unusual.

~~~
twiggie
Well the other way it passes the test is that it certainly wasn't abolished by
the Constitution when it was written, so why would it be abolished by the
Constitution today? Only if it got particularly unusual, at which point the
Eighth Amendment would kick in to protect against one rogue judge meting out a
punishment that had been largely abandoned by society.

~~~
rhcom2
I think the definition of what is cruel and unusual changes. When the US
Constitution was written people were still being hanged, drawn and quartered.

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jarfil
> the national recidivism (repeat offender) rate is over 75%, the rate in
> Judge Cicconetti's court is just 10%

Who knew that generic jail/prison punishments don't rehabilitate.

~~~
kkleindev
Correlation, causation, something, something.

~~~
pdpi
Correlation doesn't imply causation, but the _lack of correlation_ does
definitely imply a lack of causation as well.

So while it's not correct to say Cicconetti's approach lowers recidivism, or
that jail time increases it, it's definitely correct to say that a punitive,
jail-heavy approach to justice is not at all effective at rehabilitation.

~~~
Recursing
> a lack of correlation does definitely imply a lack of causation as well.

That's not true as well, see Friedman's Thermostat for the extreme case

Generally rehabilitation percentages for "alternative punishments" can be
misleading because they tend to be applied to situations where they're more
likely to succeed

~~~
pdpi
Ok, fair. My point is only valid insofar as the two variables are the _only_
variables in the system. :)

Thanks for bringing up Friedman's Thermostat, I wasn't aware of that thought
experiment, and it's a really great example.

------
maury91
> A man caught with a loaded gun was sent to a morgue to see corpses.

To me looks like something that should be compulsory to have a gun, to know
the consequences of using it. I believe fewer people will have the guts of
pressing the trigger after seeing that.

~~~
dlphn___xyz
the same should be done when you own a car

~~~
mcguire
Drivers education classes usually include such films as "Blood on the Highway"
for just that reason.

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nimbius
disclosure: I have been convicted of possession of marijuana in the past. I
was given a 4 year sentence, commuted after just 7 months, due to overcrowding
and a budget crisis.

people like Cicconetti probably make for a 'feel good' story but seeing this
makes me bitter. Judges are elected officials in the US, so the judge you get
can be pretty arbitrary. They are allowed to be callous, and impose very harsh
sentences, with little or no oversight. They can lie, and be backed entirely
by the prosecution.

If I had a judge that imposed 9 years in prison, or 3 weeks of standing in a
field wearing a funny hat, I would immediately take prison. I dont know this
judge and my appointed attorney for the state isnt exactly knocking it out of
the park. Prison comes with formal educational options like finishing a GED or
starting college. It has educated psychologists and psychiatrists to seriously
help with some offenders major problems; its not just a clever guy in a robe.
Finally, prison has work placement assistance and reintegration assistance if
needed.

My "feel good" punishment will still come with a criminal conviction. The
difference is I will have foregone any semblance of formal restitution in the
eyes of my friends, family, or employers.

~~~
huhtenberg
You will prefer spending 9 years in prison instead of 3 weeks doing random
silly alternative. Because of all the benefits that come with being in prison.

Did I read this correctly?

This makes no sense.

~~~
fuzz4lyfe
Neither does a 4 year sentence for marijuana. Likely this was a parole
violation and OP was forced to serve out the sentence he was previously
paroled from.

~~~
zuuow
4 year sentence for weed, I assume it's a huge quantity

~~~
jumelles
Sadly your assumption is most often totally wrong.

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riffraff
> Most people want to be good but for little obstacles or habits. We have to
> change the habits and remove the obstacles. That's our job.

I love this quote. Notice it applies to an infinite amount of contexts.

------
dfischer
Wow this is really amazing. The amount of effort here and critical thought is
eye-opening and obviously compelling. Why is this an outlier trait? What makes
these qualities hard to attain for the rest? Applying this methodology
requires mostly... critical thinking? Care? What’s missing from the rest of
judges and in many ways I’m sure can be applied to other fields of expertise.

~~~
mirimir
Well there is the issue of "cruel and unusual" punishments being
unconstitutional. But his seem too whimsical for that. I mean, the "pepper
spray" was actually water.

~~~
vezycash
His success is in giving the accused a CHOICE.

Here's jail, and here's something else with less jail time or non - Choose.
Parents already do that to their kids, some schools to students. His
innovation is in applying it to Law.

Without choice, his method would be considered abuse of power.

------
tronko
There is a Spanish Judge (Emilio Calatayud) that does something similar[1][2].
I wonder if that is a kind of School of Lawn.

[1]
[http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/07/18/20...](http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/07/18/2003179438)

[2] [https://inglesiesollosgrandes.blogspot.com/2012/05/emilio-
ca...](https://inglesiesollosgrandes.blogspot.com/2012/05/emilio-calatayud-
reforming-judge.html)

------
WhompingWindows
"A man who committed a traffic violation while shouting "pigs" at police
officers was made to stand on a street corner with a 350-pound pig and a sign
that said "This is not a police officer."

"A nanny accused of hitting a boy with a belt was compelled to read articles
on the consequences of child abuse, and then discuss them in the courtroom in
front of the judge, the victim's mother, and spectators."

~~~
ryanmonroe
Very odd that a judge, working on behalf of the United States legal system,
would create a new punishment specifically in response to a citizen calling
police officers "pigs", which is not illegal in the United States.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Meant as a derogatory slur, its ok? I can shout at the Mexican-Americans down
at Big Box store now without repercussion? Disturbing the peace at the very
least. Public nuisance.

~~~
papln
Racial heritage is a protected class. The people who lord over me with a
monopoly on legal violence had better not be.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Public nuisance is a thing, no matter why its being done or who its done to.
Not illegal because of the target; illegal because its a deliberately public-
disturbing outburst. Like crapping on the street - never mind who you were
trying to send a message to, its just not to be done.

~~~
sterkekoffie
Unless you're saying I could be arrested for standing on the street and
yelling "cow" a single time, I don't think you agree with yourself.

~~~
humanrebar
If you're blocking a funeral procession at the time, I could understand an
arrest and misdemeanor charges.

If nobody is there, nothing is being disturbed.

------
carlob
Reminds me a lot of the concept of contrapasso [0] in Dante's Divine Comedy.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrapasso](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrapasso)

~~~
eeZah7Ux
No.

------
tcbawo
It would be an interesting experiment to crowd-source these types of
punishments/penance. Not in a binding sense, but as a way to lobby judges for
sentences that might best rehabilitate the offenders.

~~~
cwkoss
Would be interesting to just make a parallel 'moral-social' legal system,
where the public could non-bindingly find people guilty of a crime against
society and ask them to do something to make it right.

A million people all sharing "Bob did a bad thing, and I'll shun him until he
does X" would be a very strong incentive for action. I'd imagine employers
would soon start looking up prospective candidates on this service before
hiring.

------
morley
This story brings to mind a judge profiled in the third season of Serial, who
liked to give unorthodox punishments that ended up shaming the defendants,
were difficult to follow, and ended up trapping them in a cycle of parole and
further punishments.

I try not to be cynical, but my perception is that for every one of these
judges who can think up positive punishments, there's at least one who's
creativity ends up in a more sinister place. And regardless of a judge's
talent in this regard, they have the position and the incentives to make their
outcomes seem better than they are.

~~~
trabant00
Please read the article! He gives them the choice between the "standard"
punishment (days in jail and such) and his "unorthodox punishments". And the
later are, as close as possible, focused on repairing the problem, not
punishing.

~~~
koboll
I don't know, his punishments seem to vary in quality quite a bit.

On one hand, making a nanny who hit a child research and write a report on the
effects of child abuse seems like an extremely good way to deter recidivism,
and make an impression on the defendant.

On the other hand, making someone do an embarrassing public stunt seems like
it would make them famous for the wrong reasons, severely handicapping their
ability to find work in the future, to the point that it's ultimately worse
than a short jail sentence. Embarrassing someone doesn't fix anything for
them.

~~~
papln
Indeed.

At least in the examples in Wikipedia, the punishments seem to focus more on
making the defendant feel bad (in a hopefully educational way, not merely
suffering), which is less good than making some form of reparation or
restoration. The legal system already has a notion of community service as an
alternative to jail; there is a lot of room for community service that uplifts
victims while educating perpetrators.

For example, a nanny who hit a child could be sentenced to XX hours of sewing
blankets for children in hospitals and orphanages.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice)

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ryanmarsh
As odd and degrading as some of these punishments seem nothing is as inhumane
and degrading as incarceration. If you haven’t been incarcerated, or
volunteered time in a prison, you can’t possibly know how bad it is.

------
mcguire
Judge Roy Bean.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Bean#Justice_of_the_peace](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Bean#Justice_of_the_peace)

------
simonebrunozzi
> Furthermore, where the national recidivism (repeat offender) rate is over
> 75%, the rate in Judge Cicconetti's court is just 10%.

Wow. If this is true, it's impressive.

~~~
ceejayoz
If you click the reference, it's the judge himself making the 10% claim.

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tossAfterUsing
You know who else was an Eagle Scout?

~~~
tossAfterUsing
^^ Ross Ulbricht

------
11235813213455
I'm not really sensible to pets cruelty, because I differentiate pets, farm
animals and wild animals. The latter kind matters the most obviously, and most
people are guilty of killing wild life more or less directly, through their
super consumerist life-style.

But of course, that doesn't justify pets cruelty at all, as well as wild
animals or insects cruelty, at least on the same level

Every Sunday, I see at least one dead animal along the road, it was a fox 2
days ago, and a dozen bees, butterflies (yea I spend time looking at the road,
when riding uphill)

It's brutal, but I've spent 2 years on my own without paying for any food in a
city, I sort of self-sentenced myself, no regret though, I like a simple life

edit: if you disagree with this, have at least the courage to leave a good
reason

~~~
neom
The crux of the article is not cruelty to animals.

