
Fitful nightly sleep linked to chronic inflammation, hardened arteries - ClarendonDrive
https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/06/04/fitful-nightly-sleep-linked-to-chronic-inflammation-hardened-arteries/
======
SaintGhurka
If your doctor tells you to do a sleep study, do it.

If, as a result, they tell you to get a CPAP, get it. Those things are life-
changing.

I felt like an old man at 50 years old. My back was so stiff I couldn't put on
my socks. When I got out of bed in the morning I felt so fragile, like my
joints were all inflamed - especially my Achilles' tendons. I was too tired to
do anything beyond 6 pm.

Now, 51, I feel totally normal again. And that change was pretty much
overnight once I started using that wretched machine.

~~~
dcolkitt
This may sound crazy, but for those who can't tolerate a CPAP, an effective
alternative is playing the didgeridoo.[1]

Anecdotally my wife and kids were complaining about my snoring, and I bought
one for $40 off Amazon. Not only has my snoring improved, but my lung capacity
has improved. Plus it's just fun to play.

[1][https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1360393/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1360393/)

~~~
tartoran
Yes, fixing out the lung capacity, musculature of the diaphragm, throat,
tongue, etc is really the cure. And loosing excess weight if that is the case.
CPAP, while effective and life changing is a band aid that the medical
industry can make money on. I don't hear anyone saying that the CPAP should be
used in conjunction with restorative exercises. I'm glad you found this
solution.

~~~
Eliezer
Sacrificed months of productivity to fast off 70 pounds in hope it would fix
sleep apnea. It didn't.

~~~
kilo_bravo_3
I snored so loudly that when I was in basic training that they made me sleep
all of the way at the opposite end of the open-bay barracks we were in.

I was 18 and near the height of physical perfection.

As far back as 10 years old I remember feeling miserable every single morning
even after getting a full night's sleep.

At age 35 I got a CPAP and finally fixed a quarter century of piss-poor sleep.

~~~
metrokoi
This is so frustrating. Surely millions or billions of humans having terrible
sleep is not just some genetic abnormality, and we did not evolve to have
terrible sleep only fixed by modern technology. There must be some underlying
issue that can be addressed for the majority of people.

~~~
sweetsocks21
I got diagnosed with sleep apnea and asked about this, since I'm not
overweight. The doctor said it's more about the structure of the mouth and
throat than obesity. There is an area at the back of the tongue that gathers
more fat and can block the throat, but palette structure is a big factor.
Along with jaw size and throat size.

I remember reading not too long ago on HN an article about our dental health
in modern times: [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-we-have-so-
ma...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-we-have-so-many-
problems-with-our-teeth/)

It could be our diet contributing to smaller jaws/palettes that increase the
prevalence sleep apnea?

~~~
metrokoi
This absolutely makes sense to me. It explains why it affects anyone, not just
overweight people or people who do not exercise. Our mouths evolved to
masticate much larger amounts of low calorie and high fiber food. If this
theory is correct, it is still unfortunate that it is not easily solved with
something like exercise alone and often requires either braces or CPAP.

~~~
nashalo_nighly
I’m not so sure about that, men and women largely have the same diets yet I
think sleep apnea disproportionately affects men.

------
the-dude
Fitful : Occurring in or characterized by intermittent bursts, as of activity;
irregular.

[https://www.wordnik.com/words/fitful](https://www.wordnik.com/words/fitful)

I am not a native speaker and had to look it up.

~~~
johnmorrow
Native speaker and you saved me the effort!

~~~
Wistar
Yeah, "fitful" is a word that sounds good but isn't.

~~~
teekert
Ha! Same here! I though that it must be something like that link between
relief of depression and sleep deprivation. Turns out, fitful is not related
to being fit or to a full night of sleep, but more to throwing a fit.

------
quercus
There was a period in my life (almost a decade ago) when I was sleeping poorly
due to unhealthy work habits and excess caffeine. I was in my 20s and early
30s during this time and felt invincible, but the effects on my body were
profound. The damage became so tangible I had no choice but to make a change,
and have for the last 5+ years been sleeping normally. I miss those days of
nonstop work, I was more productive then, but it would have killed me if I had
continued.

~~~
selestify
What was the damage, do you mind sharing?

~~~
kortilla
A wallet so full of cash it was causing backaches sitting on it.

~~~
jspash
You're getting downvoted because it's probably not the reason that the OP was
talking about, but sitting on a large wallet - full of cash, receipts or just
junk - is VERY bad for your back. And most people don't even realise the
damage it's causing. Also, it's insidious in the way that a wallet starts out
thin and flat, then slowly gathers remnants of daily life. Getting larger and
bulkier by the day.

I'm being totally serious here. If you carry a wallet around in the back
pocket of your trousers/pants/jeans whatever, and it's full of junk - even if
it's not - and you have chronic back pain, stop doing that! Put it in your
front pocket or jacket. Anywhere. I assure you, it's very likely to be causing
problems for your lower back.

As a test, just switch the wallet to the other side and sit down. It will
either feel great or hurt immediately.

~~~
neurostimulant
I never been able to put my wallet in my back pocket. It's so uncomfortable,
especially when sitting down like you said. I can't understand how other
people put up with it. I always carry it in my side pocket instead. It looks
weird but at least I can sit comfortably.

------
naasking
This article seems to contradict itself:

> UC Berkeley sleep scientists have begun to reveal what it is about
> fragmented nightly sleep that _leads to_ the fatty arterial plaque buildup
> known as atherosclerosis that can result in fatal heart disease.

This is a causal claim, emphasis mine, which contradicts:

> “To the best of our knowledge, these data are the first to _associate_ sleep
> fragmentation, inflammation and atherosclerosis in humans,” said study lead
> author Raphael Vallat

which is a correlative claim, emphasis also mine, and they use "linked"
throughout the article, which is also correlative.

So does fitful sleep "lead to" chronic inflammation and arterial plaque, or
are chronic inflammation and arterial plaque simply typical of people in
poorer health and/or overweight, which can itself potentially cause sleep
disorders, ie. a correlation? I'm not sure we know the actual root causes
here.

~~~
abeyer
The causal claim is itself a (stronger form of) correlation, so how is that a
contradiction? They claim:

1\. To demonstrate a causal pathway

2\. There was not a previous correlative claim that this merely strengthened

Also, given it's in an open access journal, you can trivially verify from the
source rather than rely on a press release. "we describe a pathway wherein
sleep fragmentation raises inflammatory-related white blood cell counts
(neutrophils and monocytes), thereby increasing atherosclerosis severity"
[[https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou...](https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.3000726)]

~~~
eschutte2
From that article:

> "A first limitation is that our analyses were constrained by the use of
> cross-sectional data, which precludes definitive assessment of
> directionality of associations. For example, it could be that cardiovascular
> disease (or associated treatments) may also drive sleep fragmentation in
> addition to, or rather than, the other way around."

------
elchief
I've improved my sleep quality (as measured by FitBit), by eating smaller
dinners earlier, and not snacking at night. Avoiding alcohol entirely most
nights. Avoiding drinking water before bed so I don't have to get up to pee

I take Webber Super Sleep (available at Costco). Has Melatonin, 5-HTP
(serotonin precursor), and L-Theanine. Seems to help

------
trentnix
If this describes you, go get a sleep study done. A CPAP has completely
changed the quality of my sleep. Even short sleep nights are deep and restful.

Now I just need to get my diet under control and exercise regularly...

~~~
crispyporkbites
Wouldn’t getting your diet under control and exercising regularly be a lot
easier/cheaper/better for you in the long run?

~~~
stdgy
If you can do anything to fix your sleep now, immediately, it should be done.
Poor sleep is arguably the worst possible thing you can inflict on your body.
It has direct links to virtually every major disease and ill health outcome,
including cancer, alzheimer's disease, every major mental health disorder,
heart disease, increased risk of physical injuries, decreased metabolism...
The list continues.

You should absolutely get your diet under control and build a consistent
exercise routine in the long run. But both of those things will be very hard
to do without the proper dose of high quality sleep every night. Without
proper sleep you'll be fighting your own body every step of the way. Every
positive health outcome gets harder to achieve without sleep, not easier.

------
fideloper
Confirmed: having young kids is bad for your health.

~~~
hinkley
So are puppies.

We were more of a cat family and I was too young to remember when we got our
dogs. I did not understand that romcom trope of buying a man a puppy to see
how he'd fare as a father.

Then we got a puppy. Ho. Lee. Shit.

New puppies make it about half again as long as a baby before they wake you
up, and take much less time to settle down to 6+ hours of peace and quiet
(where you can go to bed early and your partner can do the late shift), but
man are you a zombie for a while.

------
bamboozled
Another study to emphasise the importance of sleep, another way to make it
harder for people with sleep issues feel more anxious!

------
kzrdude
I didnt sleep enough for all my teens and student years, and ended up with an
autoimmune disease. Taking sleep and other health seriously has been a big
part of getting myself back in working shape.

~~~
hinkley

        The Dalai Lama, when asked what surprised him most about humanity, he said:
    
        “Man.
        Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money.
        Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
        And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present;
        the result being that he does not live in the present or the future;
        he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.”

~~~
hinkley
That quote and watching him interact with Desmond Tutu like they are school-
aged BFFs are my favorite things about the Dalai Lama.

~~~
john-radio
Good news! You can pare it down to a single favorite thing about him; that
quote is bullshit. [https://ntweblog.blogspot.com/2011/10/that-dalai-lama-
quotat...](https://ntweblog.blogspot.com/2011/10/that-dalai-lama-quotation-
and.html)

------
chooseaname
Is there a Dr in the house? Am I reading this correctly as if you improve your
sleep you could possibly (I don't know the correct word to use here) improve?
reduce? the plaque buildup in your arteries?

~~~
adamsbriscoe
It will reduce your risk. Poor sleep leads to an inflammatory cascade which
can contribute to atherosclerosis. Also affects blood pressure; hypertension
is a well-established risk factor for vascular disease. More reading here:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3548567](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3548567)

~~~
chooseaname
Thank you. I am glad these types of posts make it to HN, I just don't always
understand them.

------
chrischen
Anybody have “clinical grade” sleep tracker recommendations as recommended by
the article? I have a smart watch sleep tracker but my doctor says it is
inaccurate (withings watch), and it always says my deep sleep number is too
low even though google says the range is within normal.

~~~
dota_fanatic
Dreem is the only thing I know of. Pricy though.
[https://dreem.com/en](https://dreem.com/en)

~~~
novok
Does it actually stay on? I had a zeo headband sleep tracker and there was a
%50 chance it would slip off while I was asleep.

~~~
dnissley
Just got one a few weeks ago. Feel free to AMA.

It stays on for me (medium to large size head, or so I think) -- tends to ride
up on my forehead a bit over time but never had it fall off. It's got some
adjustments that can be made to tighten/loosen the fit, on top of which there
is some elastic in part of the band.

~~~
abeyer
What (if anything) will it do in the absence of their service? Is there any
open source software/open protocols/etc... for it?

After being burned a few times, I've resolved to make hardware purchasing
decisions based only on what a device can do using built-in/self-hosted
software without any external services...but vendors make this difficult or
impossible to figure out from the marketing glossies.

~~~
dnissley
I don't believe it would function at all without their online services, it
actually connects directly to wifi so it's definitely doing something
important through that. I haven't looked into it but I bet everything is
proprietary all the way up the stack.

And honestly that's fine for me. I don't plan on using this forever, I mainly
got it since it is far cheaper than going through an actual therapist to do
CBT for insomnia, so I figured I'd try this first.

Another thing to consider: It's definitely a wear item. It's got a fabric
construction on the outside that seems to me like it will collect body oil +
dirt/grime and it can't easily be cleaned. On the whole it feels kind of
delicate. To be fair though, I don't know if it's possible to make a long
lasting eeg based sleep tracker that's also comfortable to wear.

------
istorical
Radical dietary change can lead to huge differences in experiential quality of
life and sleep as well.

Chronic dietary inflammation (which just means foods that your body doesn't
like) can have a whole host of subtle effects you would never notice until
they are absent.

~~~
aksss
desperate times call for desperate measures. Nobody likes to give up
sugar/wheat/etc, but if the choice is that or chronic disease symptom flare-
ups, well, as Blind Melon sang, "when life is hard you have to change".

------
r00fus
I have heart issues (had a stent 2 years ago - early for my age) and have
always slept poorly (mostly bad habits + diet).

Sleep routine is the most essential thing to fix if you have resolved all your
basic needs. It creates a feedback loop that helps to reduce stress and
improve health.

I've learned this the hard way - you shouldn't have to.

~~~
JadeNB
> Sleep routine is the most essential thing to fix if you have resolved all
> your basic needs. It creates a feedback loop that helps to reduce stress and
> improve health.

How did you fix it? I suffer from asthma and frequent urination issues, both
of which wake me up several times a night. It doesn't seem to matter much what
my routines before sleep and after waking are if I am involuntary woken during
sleep, and I'm stymied for a solution.

~~~
maccard
> I suffer from asthma and frequent urination issues, both of which wake me up
> several times a night.

I also suffer from asthma, you shouldn't be woken multiple times a night from
it! That's very severe if it's happening with any regularlity and you should
speak to a GP about it.

~~~
JadeNB
> I also suffer from asthma, you shouldn't be woken multiple times a night
> from it! That's very severe if it's happening with any regularlity and you
> should speak to a GP about it.

I agree. Unfortunately I don't have a GP, and now's a hard time to get in as a
new patient.

~~~
maccard
For sure. I unfortunately don't have a huge amount of novel advice to offer in
managing asthma - regular moderate exercise, finding the right medication and
avoiding known triggers were what got my asthma under control, going from
using a reliever every day to handing back some of my older inhalers because
they expired, in about 18 months.

------
nyhc99
Here's what I wonder, and this is somewhat tangential to the issue-- the
effects of cannabis are thought to be disruptive to some of the various stages
of the sleep cycle, but at the same time, it can sure help you to achieve a
full night of uninterrupted sleep. So in the context of these inflammation
problems, I wonder what exactly it is about fitful sleep that leads to these
inflammation responses and whether taking a toke before bed could be
beneficial to your arteries.

~~~
PragmaticPulp
Wishful thinking. You shouldn’t start with the substance you want to take and
work backward to rationalize it.

There are plenty of milder, better-researched solutions suitable for longer
term use without associated cognitive problems of cannabis. An extremely low
dose of Trazodone, for example.

~~~
nyhc99
I would describe it more as taking the substance I've already decided to take
regularly and speculating on the effects that it might have on various parts
of my life. I certainly don't have fitful sleep anymore.

------
kaiwen1
I had terrible sleeping problems: snoring, waking up choking with a dry mouth,
very restless, etc. I saw these[1] nasal dilators for $9 on Amazaon and bought
them on a whim. It took a couple of weeks to build a habit of sleeping with my
mouth closed and breathing through my nose, but once I did, my sleep (and
therefore life) improved dramatically. So simple. I wish I would have figured
this out ten years earlier. These probably won't work for most people with
sleep disorders, but if the issue is sleeping with an open mouth due to
restricted nasal passages, I would definitely give these things a try before
settling on more elaborate treatment.

Also, as mentioned here and everywhere, alcohol destroys sleep. I've (mostly)
stopped drinking for sleep reasons, and drink nothing at all 1.5 hours before
bed.

[1]
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DSTZ4KM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DSTZ4KM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

------
victor106
>To more accurately gauge one’s sleep quality, the researchers recommend the
use of clinical grade sleep trackers,

Any recommendations for a good sleep tracker?

edit:- already answered
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23431549](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23431549)

tl;dr dreem is the best sleep tracker you can buy currently. Review at reedit
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ouraring/comments/e3l1jl/30_nights_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/ouraring/comments/e3l1jl/30_nights_of_oura_v_dreem_data/)

You can use the promo code to get a 20% off NOOEONDVV

------
lenova
I've been having major sleep issues recently (waking up every 60-90s minutes,
trouble staying asleep, averaging 2-4 hours of sleep a night total).

I recorded myself overnight and heard quite a bit of snoring, so I picked up a
at-home sleep study kit, convinced that I had sleep apnea. The results were
that I didn't, classified my O2 intake as normal, and my snoring threshold as
low.

I'm at a loss as to what do now. I have been practicing good sleep hygiene and
exercising, but now I'm at the point where I'm asking my doctor for a
prescription because I'm just so desperate for a night of sleep.

~~~
tren
If you can, reach out for help. Talk to your GP and don't discount any advice
they give you. If you can talk to a cbti sleep specialist (usually a psych),
it's worth trying out. I did group cbti and in conjunction with other things,
it helped a lot. I was in a similar boat to you a couple of years ago

------
TallGuyShort
Can anyone more familiar with this field elaborate on exactly what "chronic
circulating inflammation throughout the blood stream" is? Inflammation I
understand, but how does it circulate throughout the bloodstream? Does this
refer to inflammation of the blood vessels, the heart, or somehow your blood
itself?

And is there a reason to suspect causality goes in the direction implied in
the article (i.e. bad sleep -> plaque) and not (i.e. X -> plaque and X-> bad
sleep, where X could be stress or emotional state, etc.)?

~~~
derefr
Circulation of pro-inflammatory compounds, I'd assume.

------
blaufast
James Nestor’s new book ‘Breath’ may be useful to you if you suffer from
fitful sleep. His research into and experiments with breathing may give you
some easy fixes to help improve your sleep.

------
jkereako
For folks who want to learn more about sleep, I highly recommend this three-
part Podcast interview with Dr. Matthew Walker:

[https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/](https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/)

The single best thing that improved my quality of sleep was a ten-minute
meditation before bed. I have anxiety (albeit officially undiagnosed) and
meditation helps me stay calm. It also helps me stay asleep. Without it, I
wake up in the middle of the night.

~~~
bonoboTP
I've heard good things about weighted blankets for anxiety.

------
bawana
Does fixing sleep with medication prevent atherosclerosis? Does taking
nonsteroidals have a salutary effect?

It's too bad they did not tease out the effects of taking antiinflammatories
as well as sleep aids like benadryl, quill,etc.

------
gabrielsroka
Matthew Walker, study senior author, on Joe Rogan (2018):
[https://youtu.be/pwaWilO_Pig](https://youtu.be/pwaWilO_Pig)

------
bobblywobbles
Is the risk enhanced if you sleep less, or is it if you can't stay asleep? I
could not tell from this study

------
nojs
It could also be the reverse - chronic inflammation makes you uncomfortable
and therefore unable to sleep well.

~~~
Godel_unicode
"... associational results in humans mirror recent data in which
experimentally manipulated sleep disruption in mice led to higher levels of
circulating inflammation"

------
dunefox
Colour me concerned. I sleep badly and don't do much sport.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
You might find one helps the other - though I don't necessarily recommend
"sport" per say, but exercise.

~~~
dunefox
You mean "per se"? ;)

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
If only you'd gotten to me when I could still edit it. :( Add it to the wall
of ignominy.

------
jungletime
Any apps that will tell me how often I snore and for how long?

------
83457
RIP me

------
OldFatCactus
how do I avoid hardening my arteries?

~~~
lazyasciiart
Eat fibre and healthy fats like salmon or avocado, don't eat too much, and
exercise enough to raise your heart rate often.

------
known
2D echo is the gold standard for diagnosing heart diseases

