
I Think You're Fat (2007) - glenstein
http://www.esquire.com/features/honesty0707
======
buss
If you haven't figured it out already, this is a terrible, terrible idea. I
tried a variant of this for about two years in college and it caused way more
problems than it solved (actually, I don't think it solved _any_ problems).

Despite what you may think about the righteousness of the Truth, people get
offended. People get offended at even the slightest of things. Even if they're
completely obvious.

We have social filters because they help people get along. The people around
us don't want to know our real thoughts and opinions because they are often
hurtful or awkward. It shouldn't matter, in the normal course of interaction,
what I think about you, your clothes, how you talk, or what I think about
anything. By filtering out some of my thoughts & opinions, I avoid pouring
sand into the gears of interpersonal relationships.

~~~
john_flintstone
Maybe, but I had a bad hair cut for 3 years, and I wish someone had had the
balls to tell me.

~~~
knieveltech
True story:

I was out drinking one night many years ago right around the time mullet
spotting became a meme. Several beers into the evening I spotted a college age
kid walking into the bar sporting a classic example of the tennis mullet.
Being a service minded individual (not to mention very drunk) I marched over
to him and asked him if he was aware he had a mullet and directed him to
<http://www.mulletsgalore.com/> the next time he was near a computer. The kid
looked at me like I was nuts but he wrote the URL down. Mission accomplished I
went back to drinking with friends.

A month later at the same bar I was approached by a vaguely familiar dude with
a sharp looking haircut. He introduced himself, thanked me profusely for
telling him about mullets and bought me a round before joining up with the
rest of his friends. Apparently the kid just hadn't heard of mullets yet and
I'd done him a real service by bringing him up to speed on the subject.

~~~
twfarland
Classic! You might have done him a service, but perhaps you've done those
around him a disservice - now he bears no evidence of toolhood as obvious as a
mullet!

~~~
gwern
If he took the stranger seriously, visited the website, acted on the well-
meant and accurate advice, and months later remembers the stranger well enough
to buy him a round - I'm going to say that that's pretty good evidence he is
not a tool.

~~~
knieveltech
And you would be correct. He was a nice guy who had an unfortunate haircut.

------
vnorby
I appreciate you linking to this article but I wonder what you were doing
browsing the archives of Esquire. To be honest, I did not see much of a
conclusion from the article, but I enjoyed reading it. Also, I thought I would
let you know that I am writing this comment to get up-voted, so that I can
increase my karma. If I increase my karma, people may remember my username,
and later up-vote the articles I submit about my company. That will increase
traffic to my website. Eventually, the result of this will be that I become
rich and famous.

~~~
glenstein
I have the same problem with your comment that I have with the article. What
you're doing is a kind of kitschy psuedo-honesty that I think the author is
engaging in to some extent. None of the author's admissions were that risky.
They were refreshing to read and perhaps a little courageous, but it's stuff
you might have guessed was there already. If, hypothetically, his wife left
him because of a sexual fetish, that would be no more or less of a non-
sequitur than anything else he admitted to, but much more potentially damaging
to his reputation. (Again, the preceding was a hypothetical.)

It's not that A.J. Jacobs should have to hold himself to that standard of the
subject he's reporting on, but that he's purporting-to-do-so-but-not-really,
which is irritating. For some reason his (and your) version of "radical
honesty" becomes a game where you just craft a succession of start-and-stop
sentences with cute, largely forgivable admissions of self-interest. I'm not
against humor but I'm suspicious that for some it functions as a coping
mechanism that substitutes for sincere engagement with an uncomfortable idea.

I did not discover this article by browsing Esquire. It was part of Luke
Muelhauser's list of favorite articles.

~~~
stcredzero
For me, there's definitely an attention-getting side to the "radical honesty"
as presented in the article. I'm more inclined to believe people value the
truth when they are:

a) good listeners b) rigorous with facts c) possessed of humility and respect
for others

One can display such traits and thereby signal valuing the truth in a more
substantive way than the behavior presented in the article, which I suspect
could be easily faked (at least at first) by someone with borderline
personality disorder.

------
wollw
It isn't easy to be honest but I think that it's dangerous to do this sort of
thing. Just because it's wrong to lie doesn't mean every truth should be
voiced; knowing when to hold your tongue is an important skill. It might have
been honest for him to tell his nanny that he was attracted to her or to tell
the editor of Rachel Ray he was looking down her shirt but what good did it
do? From the sound of it it only served to make them uncomfortable. The fact
that it made him feel like an asshole seems to imply it wasn't making him a
happier person anyway. I think it's good to strive toward total honesty, but
total honesty doesn't mean saying every stupid thought that crosses your mind.
Thoughts are transitory things. By voicing some of the darker ones you risk
making a larger issue out of something that you might otherwise quickly forget
ever crossed your mind. Just because it's true doesn't mean it's beneficial to
speak.

~~~
Xurinos
I have not told a lie in roughly ten years -- although something bugs me about
that statement, rankles me deeply, so I suspect I may have said something
wrong at some point. I do, however, keep a lot of things to myself. I can
speak truthfully without injecting lies, and I keep silent when it is obvious
the truth (as I see it) is unhelpful or causes trouble. I will occasionally
dodge a question, too, in order to keep conversation flow moving; it is
another form of keeping silent, although some will consider that that is a
kind of lie (probably because they feel entitled to an answer). I am also apt
to answer the question that somebody really meant to ask rather than the easy
surface question ("Do you have spare change?" == "Do you have spare change
that you are willing to give me?" ==> "No.").

How does that affect my relationship with my wife? We both have been able to
be very honest with each other, and we have a relationship built strongly on
trust and honesty. I hope I never break that because it would be a betrayal.
It is really about the tone used to express the thought if the thought is
important enough to express in the first place.

I despise the whole concept of "white lies". I despise people who dare to
manipulate me, to condescendingly see after my own good or feelings by bald-
face lying to me about something. Be honest or say nothing, but do not dare
tell me excuses that are obvious lies, "socially acceptable". According to
whom? Where do you draw the line between "white" and "black" lies? I do find
it insulting, and I often do not mind calling people out on it; sure, things
get uncomfortable, but they are the ones spouting deceit.

Perhaps it boils down to the notion that what somebody expresses is a measure
of their integrity and honor. Somewhere I read a quote along the lines of...
You can judge a man by two things: what he wants and what he is willing to do
to get it.

~~~
wollw
It sounds like we have a similar approach to honesty. The way I see it the
distinction between honesty and dishonesty is entirely in the intent. What is
being communicated isn't always the literal thing being said. The same sort of
interpretation employed with the "Do you have spare change?" is also what
makes things like sarcasm still honest (as it's an understood change of
meaning) and true statements that are meant to deceive dishonest. I see white
lies as in the dishonest camp myself; if the best thing you can do is to avoid
answering, that's the best you can do.

~~~
Mz
Delivery also makes a difference. There is some saying that "people who value
brutal honesty value brutality more than honesty". Telling people the truth
does not require one to be ugly and hostile. If you are being ugly and hostile
while speaking the truth, it probably says you are an ugly hostile person more
than it says the truth is ugly and hostile (though there are certainly cases
where trying to frame it in a nicer way is extremely challenging if not
impossible).

Taking the title of the article as an example to work with: As a woman who
used to be quite plump, I found that some men liked me like that and had
pleasant ways of remarking on the fact that I had generous curves. Observing
honestly that a person is not thin does not automatically require one to agree
that simply being fat is inherently something horrible and in desperate need
of remedying, worthy of making one a social outcast who should promptly pursue
personal torture to get in line with the social norms and expectations that
"thin is in".

------
Mz
I'm excessively honest. It's a tough row to hoe. I've worked hard at learning
to live this way without just going around being an asshole all the time.
Pulling that combo off is even tougher. One key: Honesty and full disclosure
are not the same thing. I am entitled to my own opinion. Other people are not
entitled to my opinion (ie I do not have to tell them what it is just because
I have one). Learning when to keep my big fat fucking mouth shut is a good
thing. "A closed mouth gathers no feet."

In short: Honesty and indiscretion are not synonyms.

~~~
billswift
You might find Sissela Bok's books, _Lying: Moral Choice in Public and Private
Life_ and _Secrets_ , interesting. Boiled down, her arguments amount to 1)
there is rarely adequate justification for lying, and 2) the problem of
secrets is far more complex. The arguments are very good and well-supported.

------
cyrus_
The problem with this is that because lying or omitting the truth is so
common, you end up communicating more than you may intend to when you are
honest and forthright. For example, it is impossible to comment about being
attracted to someone without also implicitly communicating that you want to
either go on a date with or sleep with them in most cultures. Or if you do the
opposite and tell them you find them hideous, it is generally assumed that you
must have told them this because you _wanted_ to cause them distress.

I think this whole thing could maybe work, though, if you take great care to
be very aware of what you are indirectly communicating and head off those
assumptions. In many cases, this may simply require that you first qualify
things with "Don't take this the wrong way, since I'm trying this Radical
Honesty thing, but..." or "Can I be blunt with you? [yes] I think..." In other
cases, this could be more specifically addressing the feelings you expect to
elicit, "I know this is going to make you feel bad, but I think it will be
better for you to hear this from me now, ..."

------
szopa
It is really interesting how the socially acceptable level of honesty varies
from place to place. I've recently moved from Poland to Northern California,
and the expression "dancing on eggshells" describes very well my experience.

In Poland, I would classify myself as maybe a little bit above the average in
terms of the sort of honesty described in the article (and that mostly with
people I knew very well). Here, if I don't control myself I end up being the
awkward says-before-thinking guy...

What bothers me most, however, isn't not being able to speak my mind; it's the
lack of feedback from people around me. I am always left wondering if stuff
like "I really like your other glasses" isn't actually code for "you look like
an idiot in those glasses, and I am embarrassed to be seen with you on the
street." I can only hope that with time I will be able to calibrate my sensors
for California...

(On a side note, I feel really glad to be married. Dating must be hell in
California ;)

------
fauldsh
Since when were the words honest and tactless synonymous? There are plenty of
ways of telling people something they don't want to hear without being
incredibly blunt. This man appears to get off on the while confrontational
part of not lying.

I consider myself pretty honest but I don't tell people truths unless they ask
my opinion or its a problem for me.

------
stcredzero
_"Did you get the birthday gift I sent you?" asks her stepmom.

"Uh-huh," I say.

She sent me a gift certificate to Saks Fifth Avenue.

"And? Did you like it?"

"Not really. I don't like gift certificates. It's like you're giving me an
errand to run."

"Well, uh . . ."

Once again, I felt the thrill of inappropriate candor._

If this whole thing felt "thrilling" then by my estimation, he's usually
disingenuous to an extent where I'd just eliminate him from associates I feel
are worthwhile.

Also, the fact that he feels a gift certificate is like being "given an errand
to run" indicates a level of self indulgence and laziness that would eliminate
him from associates I would hire, as well as supporting the theory that he's
usually too disingenuous for me to hang out with. If someone doesn't have
enough balls to flat out tell me, "I got your gift certificate, but I haven't
had time to go to the store yet," and feel the need to tell me the "right
thing," then I can't imagine being able to depend them to tell me the truth
when there's a little stress and things _actually matter_.

------
bramcohen
Some of us had to learn to _not_ be like this.

[http://stuffaspergerpeoplelike.com/2008/11/30/28-brutal-
hone...](http://stuffaspergerpeoplelike.com/2008/11/30/28-brutal-honesty-aka-
rudeness/)

~~~
GFischer
That's a very important point. I guess I agree with the comment that it's a
"pseudo-honesty" and not the brutal honesty mentioned in your link.

(comment: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3398217> )

------
peregrine
Single Page link <http://www.esquire.com/print-this/honesty0707?page=all>

------
mikeash
My wife is the only person I'm nearly totally honest with. I won't say
_completely_ honest, but it's pretty close. Far more than I see most people be
with their opposites.

Sometimes it hurts her, sometimes I say something and wonder if I should have
lied instead, but ultimately I think it makes everything so much healthier
between us. If I'm in the middle of something and she's telling me a boring
story about shopping for clothes, I'll tell her right out, I'm busy and I
don't really care about your clothes shopping. She'll be annoyed but she'll
also listen, and doesn't harbor any long-term resentment over it. I don't know
that this would work for everyone, but I think it's a good thing to do.

I don't think I have the courage to do this with _everyone_ , though.

------
crux_
So, it took a while to dig up a working link, but there's a
memorable/revealing story I listened to a while ago about a visit to Brad
Blanton's Radical Honesty workshop... worth a listen.

mp3 link: <http://fancyandawesome.com/cm/?tag=starlee-kine>

Original source: The Moth podcast.

(( Spoiler: it goes beyond being merely unflattering towards Blanton, to
downright disturbing. ))

~~~
GFischer
Do you have a transcript somewhere? I can't listen to audio.

Maybe there's a service for deaf people somewhere... googling I found Dragon
Naturally Speaking, I wonder if that is the state of the art.

~~~
crux_
A transcript would be nice! But I doubt there's one out there; it took a lot
of trawling to find a mirror of the podcast in the first place, unfortunately.

------
cafard
Many utterances do not exist in an abstract world of truth or falsity, but
imply an intention. This may vary with context. In a group therapy session,
"I'd like to kick your ass." may reveal (previously) unspoken intentions and
lead to a useful discussion. In a bar, late at night when everyone's been
drinking it means more or less "and unless you can prove that I can't, I
either shall do so or shall simply make you an object of contempt to the
bystanders."

In some neutral situation (is there one?) telling a woman that you are
attracted to her simply conveys a fact. Telling your domestic employee this
may lead to her pushing the desk against the door every night before she turns
in.

------
AznHisoka
I think being honest, and talking about elephants in the room would open up
some relationships. It would make people feel less alone in their thoughts. We
all share similar thoughts but sometimes we feel we're weird as heck b/c we're
the only one with such thoughts.

For me, it's less about talking/gossiping about others, and judging others.
I'm talking about universal stuff like the unfairness of life(genetic
lottery), death(do 80-year olds go to bed thinking this might be the day? do
older parents wake up, thinking this might be the day their parents are
dead?). Opening up about what we're thinking.. not about others, but about
life.

------
drumdance
I think the Radical Honesty approach goes too far, but the kernel of truths
that I've personally found useful are:

1\. vulnerability (i.e. telling the truth about your feelings) promotes
intimacy

2\. boldly saying what you think does indeed help with picking up women

------
chrisguitarguy
I really enjoy A.J. Jacob's writing. His books[1] are great, well worth the
read if you need some fun non-fiction.

1\. <http://www.amazon.com/A.-J.-Jacobs/e/B000APL8HO>

------
TamDenholm
Personally i try not to lie whenever possible, i prefer brutal truth, i
especially appreciate it when given to me, because bullshitting me doesn't
help me at all, if you tell me the truth then i can learn from it, if you
bullshit me, i wont realise there is a problem.

However, when talking with others, i always try to stick to brutal truth, but
word it in the nicest way possible, because lets face it, some people cant
take radical honesty. Sometimes i will omit the biggest negative and give
smaller negative as constructive criticism and suggest an improvement. While
its not full on honesty, i feel its much better than just bullshitting
someone.

------
josephcooney
A counter-point (kind of) - On the Decay of the Art of Lying, by Mark Twain
<http://grammar.about.com/od/60essays/a/lyingessay.htm>

------
ebiester
Has anyone watched Kathy Griffin? It's like watching this principle in action.
I have a friend who similarly has very little filter, though her heart is
incredibly huge. She still runs into problems with it, but she styled her life
as to also include radical acceptance and live at the point where she doesn't
regret what she says.

It's fascinating to watch up close. I wouldn't suggest it to the average
entrepreneur, however, because your silence and overstating/understating can
be a large asset, especially when you have a reputation for being truthful.

------
mhb
I'd recommend buying this more thoughtful version by Sam Harris for three
bucks:

<http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/lying/>

------
teyc
Reading between the lines, Radical Honesty is a type of practice where one is
constantly working to engage with every moment and every interaction, and not
to always default to being "nice". Most people aren't aware of what they are
thinking and how it shapes them. To be radically honest is a form of tapping
into the mind stream and checking it.

Through being constantly aware of the mind's contents one is in a better
position to elicit interesting relationships, beyond just mere niceties.

~~~
epo
So if someone comes up to one of these radically honest people and tells them
they are a pretentious self-important little jerk who is too full of
themselves to be worth even contemplating getting to know they will think "Oh!
What a refreshingly straightforward person, I must elicit an interesting
relationship with them". I don't think so.

~~~
teyc
It is a process. One doesn't become radically honest with oneself until one
notices how the body physically responds to criticisms.

Toastmasters is a good example where I keep noticing the better toastmasters
actively solicit criticisms. Even if the message was "your speech was boring"
is sufficient to prod them figure out how to improve it.

------
epo
This comes from a test for Aspergers doesn't it? Only people who are incapable
of comprehending their role in social relationships would think this was a
good idea.

Hint for the Aspies, relationships require effort on your part. These little
niceties help people to like you, it shouldn't be necessary but life is a lot
easier with them than without. Its like error checking in your code. In an
ideal world it shouldn't be necessary, but it isn't an ideal world.

------
zatara
tl;dr: Blanton's diagnosis is right, but there might be better alternative
treatments.

I read the article and the books. While I have never been able to fully
implement it, there is something in radical honesty that rings very true to
me. I now realize it is about Blanton's diagnosis: lying will rotten your
life, by forcing you to create a self that is far from your true being.
Nothing new here, Di Mello and Tolle have modernly approached the same subject
from different angles, while it has been covered in many philosophical and
spiritual texts throughout history.

But Blanton proposes a kind of shock therapy that, while possibly effective,
is extremely difficult to put into daily practice. In short, by always telling
the truth you will eventually build a fulfilling life, but you will have to go
through a lot of drama and resentment, possibly pushing a lot of people away
from you during the process.

Is it possible to do it in a better way? I really don't know, but I have tried
a lot of things in the last couple of years that seems to be working. It
basically involves trying to build a lifestyle where I just don't need to lie
anymore. Start-ups are great for that compared to other work environments, but
so is moving to smaller communities, being completely open and honest with
family and friends, etc.

Whenever I put myself in a position where people's opinions can significantly
impact my (perceived?) well-being, I find it very hard to be totally honest
and close to my true self.

------
geden
In my early 20's I met at a party one of my parent's friends, who hadn't seen
me for 4-5 years since I'd left home for university and then my first job. He
squarely greeted me with "Crikey, you're starting to look fat".

It was completely out of the blue, and really hurt - initially - but it sank
in and became a turning point. After that point I started eating less and
realised I could no longer just eat whatever I wanted without consequence.

His unusual honesty has had a direct positive effect on my health, and then
indirectly those around me.

------
fatjokes
Oh please. I tried this with my girlfriend months ago. It took 3 seconds to
tell her she could lose a little weight, and about 3 hours to beg her not to
leave me.

------
mathattack
This would only work if there was one universally agreed upon truth. Our
experiences color our opinions. One persons Fat is another persons 3/4
finished with a weight loss program. We all think we're above average. Rather
than spending so much effort cutting each other down to get the real pecking
order, isn't it better to build each other up to fit our inner ideal?

------
chasinjoy
People who try this should realize that--even though they themselves may not
believe it-- if 98% of society thinks you're an asshole, then you're the
asshole in society.

Some people are OK with this and feel it's worth the tradeoffs for the
benefits of RH.

Regardless, I think that people should be more honest in general.

------
RexRollman
Great link. I also read Sam Harris's Kindle Single, Lying, earlier this year
and enjoyed that as well.

~~~
fingerprinter
I also read Lying and I thought it was really, really vapid. I would have
liked Harris to go into more social techniques that allowed him to be honest
without offending. Instead of that, which would have been very useful, Harris
simply parroted the old "lying doesn't solve problems..." Honestly, Lying
seems like something he pumped out in a short weekend because he hadn't
released anything in a while. Very disappointed.

~~~
RexRollman
Personally, I like it as it was. Had it been a guide, it probably would have
been much longer.

~~~
billswift
If it was worth taking seriously it also would have been much longer. Go read
Sissela Bok's _Lying: Moral choice in Public and Private Life_ then try taking
Harris seriously.

~~~
RexRollman
Thanks. I'll look into it.

------
plasma
What _is_ good is telling that girl or guy you like what you really think
about them.

------
erkin_unlu
this reminds me of the great movie invention of lying. Imagine a world where
there is no lying, even in the smallest sense as possible. Brutal honesty,
that is. There aren't even cinemas in that world, you can imagine ; )

------
codinghorror
I've read this article three times in three years and every time I love it a
bit more. It's crazy advice, of course -- but there is something about it,
some deeper truth, that it hints at.

------
thawley
Error – pg. 1, par. 13:

There is no such thing as a "former Texan."

------
ahoyhere
"Honesty" of this sort is nothing but an ego trip. You walk around like the
cock of the walk, blurting out whatever little thought crosses your mind. As
if you think it, it must be golden.

Well, here's some honesty for you: Nobody gives a shit.

Your opinions aren't interesting, and nobody cares. And if you want to have
friends, you'll have to learn to act like an adult. An adult knows that
compassion, sympathy, empathy, love, and tact are far more valuable than
"honesty." These traits, which are _proven_ (research!) to be the basis of
strong, long-lasting and warm relationships, are all about the OTHER person,
and rightfully so.

Make it all about _you_ , on the other hand, and your precious little
opinions, and your "honesty," will simply show the world that you're an
arrested child in an adult body, crying out for attention.

When you're an adult and you actually _need_ to deliver an uncomfortable truth
to someone you love -- for _their_ benefit, not because you _want_ to -- then
you have to do it with compassion, sympathy, empathy, love, and tact.

That means that before you even open your mouth, or think of how to say it,
you ask yourself hard & long, "Will this actually help them? Will this
actually help them change? Will this be motivational? Will this DO anything
for them?" -- then if the answer is anything but "Yes, absolutely," you keep
your damn mouth shut.

Nobody in the history of the world was helped by some egotistical, overgrown
child saying "I think you're fat."

~~~
jodrellblank
_nothing but an ego trip. You walk around like the cock of the walk. Nobody
gives a shit. Your opinions aren't interesting, and nobody cares. your
precious little opinions, and your "honesty," will simply show the world that
you're an arrested child in an adult body, crying out for attention._

Pot, meet kettle.

~~~
ahoyhere
_Pot, meet kettle._

This is a discussion forum for the purpose of discussing the validity of both
an article and people's opinions. This is not a dinner party or a coffee meet
up between two friends. You don't know me, I don't know you, and in my
comment, "you" is abstract.

This is nothing like the same.

------
maeon3
Radical honesty is considered abuse, especially when your observations are
100% empirically true and spot-on and everyone can see it including the person
targeted.

They wrote about this problem 3000 years ago. "Correct a fool and he will hate
you, correct a wise man and he will love you".

~~~
bbrizzi
Also Kant wrote about it quite a bit:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant#Moral_philosophy>

------
Craiggybear
As my grandmother used to say, it's only the truth and the truth can't hurt us
- it may not be pleasant but its over and done with and we move on.

But I like to balance that with William Blake: "a truth thats told with bad
intent is worth all the lies you can invent"

------
infocaptor
This is not a new idea. In Vedic philosophy this has been preached and
practiced only by realized person. In fact, practicing telling only truth one
becomes realized. For e.g Gandhi adopted this practice of speaking only the
truth as that is one of the limb of Yoga.

What happens is the moment you take this resolve to speak only truth, your
actions and thoughts become aware. So there is a very subtle refinement going
internally as you keep practicing speaking the truth.

But I think it is more appropriate to speak only when you are asked about it.
Just telling your thoughts just for the sake of speaking truth does not make
sense.

------
cq
This might be one of the worst articles I've ever read.

""I advocate never lying in personal relationships. But if you have Anne Frank
in your attic and a Nazi knocks on the door, lie....I lie to any government
official." (Blanton's politics are just this side of Noam Chomsky's.)"

I don't see how the quote is even remotely related to Chomsky's politics.

------
troll24601
People are not perfectly rational beings.

It's irrational to ignore the realities of human emotion, perception and
cognition.

------
hackermom
The invention of lying (2009) - <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/>

