
Show HN: Bitbillpay - Pay any PostBillPay biller in Australia with Bitcoin - zhoutong
https://www.bitbillpay.com.au/
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chiaro
Since the service you offer is so simple, why not have the home page BE the
bill pay form, with some peripheral explanation boxes? I.e. you navigate to
the site, and the first thing you see is the code and reference amount fields
etc.

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jimmcslim
Further to my response to a comment stating that this does not fall foul of
AUSTRAC's requirements, I think it does break the law with respect to the
Corporations Act's requirements for an Australian Financial Services License
(AFSL)...

[http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/ASIC.NSF/byHeadline/Licensing](http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/ASIC.NSF/byHeadline/Licensing)

"An Australian financial services (AFS) licence authorises licensees to:

1 provide financial product advice to clients;

2 deal in a financial product;

3 make a market for a financial product;

4 operate a registered scheme;

5 PROVIDE A CUSTODIAL OR DEPOSITORY SERVICE;

6 provide traditional trustee company services."

I think you are performing #5 above, therefore are breaking the law by
operating without an AFSL (if you do have an AFSL, the license number should
be displayed on your website).

Plus consider the Electronic Funds Transfer Code of Conduct...

[http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/Electronic+F...](http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/Electronic+Funds+Transfer%3A+Code+of+Conduct?openDocument)

Not trying to rain on your parade, just making sure you are aware of the
relevant laws you (may) be breaking!

~~~
zhoutong
I can't see how Bitbillpay is remotely a custodial or depository service. No
dollar ever changes hands (I pay your bills with my credit card, and you pay
me in Bitcoin). Australia Post also explicitly allows "third party bill
payments" in their terms of service.

~~~
maxden
What if there is a delay between receiving the bitcoin to doing the payment,
for example if the payment gateway is down? Would that imply custodial or
depository service?

~~~
zhoutong
Definition of "custodial or depository service":
[http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/...](http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s766e.html)

There's nothing remotely similar. The Bitcoin payment is not an arrangement
nor a financial product. It's not held in trust either.

~~~
maxden
Thanks for the link. I wouldn't want to rely on my interpretation of reading
that Act to keep myself out of trouble! There are so many links that go to
fairly unhelpful definitions such as 'when used in a provision outside Chapter
7, has the same meaning as it has in Chapter 7.' So it's not a settlement
facility etc, it seems exepmt from these if it's not considered a financial
product?

Out of interest, do you know what a similar service that accepted AUD instead
would be classified under?

------
cup
Superb. This is a really great initiative Ryan. Ive had the great misfortune
of having to use postbillpay to pay off my numerous speeding fines and
anything that can get me around using that broken website is a phenomenal
achievement. All the more so when you do it in a concise modern approach by
including bitcoins.

Ill be sharing this with a lot of my friends.

~~~
zhoutong
Thanks. Actually you can use this service to pay all kinds of bills. There are
almost 700 billers in Australia that accept POSTbillpay. It's just that the
BPAY® trade mark is a lot more reputable and familiar to Aussies.

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ps4fanboy
Be careful Ryan Zhou is the same person with the sketchy past behind
Bitcoinica.
[https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoinica](https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoinica)

Context:
[https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81581.0](https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81581.0)

~~~
zhoutong
To fairly judge my background, you should really only look at Bitcoinica
between Sep 2011 and Jan 2012, when I actually had a management role in the
business. The subsequent mis-management was entirely out of my control. I
owned exactly zero percent of the company before, during and after any of the
three hacks. I sold all assets related to Bitcoinica in November 2011 (~4
months before the first "Linode hack").

I honestly want Bitcoin to be successful, and that's why I joined CoinJar and
started the journey all over again.

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lessnonymous
For those outside Australia, you can pay most bills at the post office
(Australia Post) or online via the post office's PostBillPay service.
Basically, AusPost act as a middleman between the biller and the customer. But
AusPost only accept Australian Dollar payments.

So from my reading of it, Ryan's project takes a bitcoin payment from the
customer, converts it into AUD, then connects to PostBillPay and pays the
bill, then send the customer the receipt from PostBillPay.

Bill payments 1.0: Customer -> Biller

Bill payments 2.0: Customer -> PostBillPay -> Biller

Bill payments 3.0: Customer -> BitBillPay -> PostBillPay -> Biller

It's a great idea .. but I imagine if it takes off, AusPost will implement
pay-by-bitcoin in their own service.

~~~
zhoutong
Actually that's exactly the point of this project. I run a startup called
CoinJar (the first VC-backed Bitcoin startup in Australia) and Bitbillpay
consumes CoinJar Checkout API.

I will open source the project once it has gained some initial traction. But
before that, I will probably write a few tutorial-like blog posts to
demonstrate how to integrate the seamless and unbranded Bitcoin checkout
solution into any online business.

But of course, Bitbillpay is actually easier and faster to use than
POSTbillpay. For one thing, you don't have to enter your credit number, and
you can automatically receive an email with the receipt. (Australia Post will
ask you to "print out".)

~~~
ghiculescu
What do you mean by "the first VC-backed startup in Australia"?

~~~
jval
He means first VC-backed bitcoin startup ;P

~~~
zhoutong
Whoops. Thanks for pointing out. Edited original post.

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sepbot
Are you enrolled to AUSTRAC in accordance to Anti-Money Laundering and
Counter-Terrorism Financing Act of 2006?

~~~
zhoutong
AUSTRAC has explicitly mentioned that Bitcoin and other crypto currencies are
currently out of scope of AML/CTF.

Bitbillpay doesn't accept fiat currencies. It's not a money transmitter. You
can't use the service to get cash.

~~~
lox
Interesting, I've been looking for a reference for the first point you made,
would you happen to have one?

~~~
zhoutong
"Digital currencies potentially allow individuals and entities to conduct
quick and complex international funds transfers outside the regulatory
requirements of the traditional financial system. Digital currencies that are
not backed, either directly or indirectly, by precious metal or bullion are
not regulated by the AML/CTF Act."[0]

It's quite surprising that the law is written that way, but CoinJar is pretty
proactive to positively shape the Bitcoin economy and establish legitimacy
before regulation comes in. At CoinJar we have already merged the AML/CTF
100-point check into our ID verification for fraud prevention. Currently cash
deposits are not regulated but bank branches have the right to require
depositors to show ID.

[0]
[http://www.austrac.gov.au/files/typ_rprt12_full.pdf](http://www.austrac.gov.au/files/typ_rprt12_full.pdf)

