
The Juul Fad Is Bigger I Would Have Guessed - walterbell
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/12/the-juul-fad-is-far-bigger-than-i-ever-would-have-guessed/
======
str33t_punk
I was a nic addict for several years. Most of the time it was spliffs (weed
mixed with nicotine) but my consumption rate was probably the equivalent of
4-5 cigs a day (8 king size spliffs per day). I also smoked here and there but
I didn’t like the taste or throat hit as much.

After having a prolonged cough, I switched to juuling. I loved it - tasted
great, nice buzz, amazing (AMAZING) throat hit. I stopped smoking spliffs
(positive was I was no longer high 24-7), my lungs felt better, I overall felt
better.

However, the issue with these things is it is so available. You can take tiny
rips anywhere. And there is no quantized amount. You just take a few puffs but
you have no idea how much that is, unlike a discrete cig. So my 4-5 cig a day
habit turned into the equivalent of a pack a day habit. I found myself ‘going
to the bathroom’ all the time at work to sneak a quick hit. I think my base
level anxiety went up.

So I quit the juul (quitting wasn’t as hard as I thought despite using a pod a
day for 6 months, the anxiety of what would happen when I quit was really the
big thing. In terms of withdrawals all I had was a desire to consume nic on my
mind all the time for a few days).

Really what I want to say is that the juul is a better cig. You can use it
anywhere. You feel much less terrible and sickly (when your smoking you couch
all the time). It tastes much better. However all of this makes it much more
addicting than the traditional cigarette

The science is out on how bad for you vaping is. Many point to the fact that
nicotine by itself is really only bad for your heart - the extra stuff is more
from smoke / chemicals in cigarettes. However nicotine addiction kinda sucks

~~~
tantalor
> nicotine addiction kinda sucks

Sucks more than caffeine addiction?

~~~
tfehring
Quitting caffeine cold-turkey is worse than quitting cigarettes cold turkey
IMO - the headaches are awful. But aside from that, nicotine addiction is way
worse. Even when I drank ~20 "cups" of coffee a day, I didn't have cravings or
headaches unless I somehow managed to go several hours after waking up without
having any at all. Nicotine cravings are frequent and sporadic and prevent you
from focusing on anything else for more than a few seconds at a time.

With cigarettes, there's also the fact that you actually have to, well, smoke
cigarettes. Sometimes that's great (if you're used to it), but when you have a
sore throat, forcing yourself to smoke a cigarette one painful drag at a time
is a horrible experience. Juul is a huge step up this way, though it comes
with other issues.

------
fspeech
My younger son (high school freshman) would agree. He informed me that it is
very addictive. Some kids try it out of curiosity and then become very
addicted. It is easy to hide at school. He calls their bathroom the vape
lounge. Kids can vape at home without their parents becoming aware if they
have enough spending allowance. I thought E-cig was going to help people
addicted to cigarettes quit smoking. I didn't imagine it may become a new
plague itself.

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fromthestart
I don't understand why people are anywhere near as worried about vaping as
they are about cigarettes.

Yeah, it's addictive because of nicotine. But there's no evidence that
nicotine is harmful, in fact it may be neuroprotective, and vaping simply does
not produce the type and quantity of carcinogens that cigarette smoking does.

I think this amounts to hysteria because people associate nicotine with
cancer. Not sure why the addiction is such a big deal.

~~~
jcoffland
> But there's no evidence that nicotine is harmful

LD50 of nicotine in humans is 6.5–13 mg/kg orally.

~~~
ekianjo
Orally has no meaning since there is no clealy fixed LD50 for inhalation.
which is what mattersin this discussion.

[https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/54115.html](https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/54115.html)

Note that rats have a LD50 at 50 so the measureyou gave for LD50 in humans
seems very, very conservative.

~~~
jcoffland
Actually the conservative estimate in humans, according to Wikipedia is
0.5–1.0 mg/kg. Rats are a lot tougher than humans.

~~~
ekianjo
Wikipedia is not the place you should look for reliable toxicological
information. There are better places online (and free of access, too).

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3880486/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3880486/)

> Although an LD50 of 0.8 mg/kg would implicate that the toxicity of nicotine
> is similar to or even higher than that of cyanide, fatal nicotine
> intoxications are relatively rare, and there are countless records of
> subjects who survived consumption of nicotine in amounts far higher than 60
> mg (Larson et al. 1961). The most drastic example is probably survival of a
> suicide attempt with 4 g of pure nicotine (Schmidt 1931). While this is
> certainly an exceptional case, in which the amount of bioavailable nicotine
> was markedly reduced by vomiting, ingestion of tobacco or nicotine gums at
> doses up to 6 mg/kg nicotine was reported to evoke symptoms of intoxication
> without causing death (Malizia et al. 1983; Smolinske et al. 1988). These
> and many other literature reports on nonfatal nicotine intoxications are
> hardly compatible with a lethal dose of 60 mg or less.

> Several detailed reviews are available on fatal nicotine intoxications
> caused by either suicidal intent or accidents, latter mainly resulting from
> misusage of nicotine-containing solutions marketed as pesticides (Esser and
> Kühn 1933; Larson et al. 1961; Maehly and Bonnichsen 1963; Tiess and Nagel
> 1966; Hayes 1982; Corkery et al. 2010; Solarino et al. 2010). The postmortem
> data reviewed by Maehly and Bonnichsen (1963) and more recently by Corkery
> et al. (2010) and Solarino et al. (2010) revealed minimal nicotine blood
> levels of 2 mg/L, but rapid decline of blood nicotine after death (Sanchez
> et al. 1996) may have led to underestimation of the actual lethal
> concentration in delayed autopsies.

> Despite these uncertainties and the complex pharmacokinetics of nicotine
> (Hukkanen et al. 2005), a rough estimate of the amount of ingested nicotine
> from postmortem analyses of blood levels appears feasible. Smoking a
> cigarette results in uptake of approximately 2 mg of nicotine and gives rise
> to mean arterial plasma concentrations of about 0.03 mg/L (30 ng/ml)
> (Gourlay and Benowitz 1997). Based on 20 % oral bioavailability of nicotine
> (Hukkanen et al. 2005) and assuming linear kinetics, an oral dose of 60 mg
> would give rise to a plasma concentration of about 0.18 mg/L. The literature
> reports on fatal nicotine intoxications suggest that the lower limit of
> lethal nicotine blood concentrations is about 2 mg/L, corresponding to 4
> mg/L plasma, a concentration that is around 20-fold higher than that caused
> by intake of 60 mg nicotine. Thus, a careful estimate suggests that the
> lower limit causing fatal outcomes is 0.5–1 g of ingested nicotine,
> corresponding to an oral LD50 of 6.5–13 mg/kg. This dose agrees well with
> nicotine toxicity in dogs, which exhibit responses to nicotine similar to
> humans (Matsushima et al. 1995).

So, in reality the LD50 is much more likely to be an order of magnitude higher
than the number you provided from Wikipedia. This however agrees with the
former number you provided, and I guess this is the study where it came from.

------
navjack27
I hate juul. I support traditional vape. Juul just seems like a horrible
company with horrible intentions.

~~~
manfredo
I'm not familiar with nicotine vaping. How is juul different from "traditional
vape"? Not trying to degrade your post by use of quote marks, I'm just not
sure what is meant by that term. Did people use to vape tobacco by by grinding
leaves and using an oven vape - like vaping cannabis in, e.g. a PAX 3?

~~~
NeedMoreTea
As far as I can tell they have 10x or 20x the nicotine strength of normal
vapes, and a much harder hit. Juul seem to be 59mg/ml, most regular juice I've
come across has been 12, 6 or 3. Highest I ever saw, online, was 18.

Highest I ever tried was 12, which was recommended to start when I switched
from a 20 a day cigarette habit, in a simple pen vape. I couldn't tolerate it
for longer than about a week before dropping down to the next juice down.

Traditional vapes break into 2 types. Pen vapes don't produce much heat so
liquids tend to be a bit stronger. They'd use mostly 6, 12 or 18 strength
liquids. Vape mods (silly name as they're not modified, so I don't know what
the mod is meant to mean) have a larger battery pack with separate tank and
lower resistance coil. They're usually a fair bit larger than any pen or
cigarette. These produce much more vapour so usual strengths are 3 and 6. I
would expect Juul to be at the lower end of vapour amount as the cartridges
are so tiny.

I can't imagine the hit from Juul, and can't imagine ever trying one. It'd be
like chain smoking 4 cigs. I quit vaping totally already anyway. :)

They haven't yet launched in the UK, but I'm doubtful they'd be allowed at
that strength. (Israel banned them, having set max strength at 20mg/ml).

Juul seem around 10x the price too. I used to pay £1 - £2 for 10ml of juice
that would last well over a week, often 2. Juul cartridges are tiny, $4 each
but supposedly last about a day or two.

Last, but not least, they're 40% owned by Philip Morris (Marlboro).

~~~
pandaman
Juul seems to have much smaller battery than vape "pens". It also does not
produce nearly as much vapor. Their whole innovation is formaliting high
concentration juice which would not make you barf (using a different nicotine-
derived compound than the pure nicotine in the original e-juice) so it could
be used in a low power device.

------
AnonymousRider
My grandmother had nine sisters. All nine of them died in their 60’s from
emphysema and lung cancer. All told fifteen people in my family died from
smoking related illness. These early deaths were absolutely devastating to us
kids as they happened in rapid succession.

Vaping saves lives. Vaping saves lungs. Let’s just continue to get people off
of burning cigarettes and we can tackle nicotine addiction once cigarettes are
a bad memory.

~~~
carbocation
You might be right for smokers who transition to vaping. I would bet money
that you are right. When my patients ask me, I tell them my guess, and I am
emphatic that it is a guess. We will know the right answer at some point.

However, the concern is that nicotine use is on the upswing among young people
( _edit_ : previous nonsmokers) for the first time in many years. If vaping is
anything short of harmless, which I think we must presume it is, then this is
a brewing problem.

------
exabrial
And juul is safer than inhaling the combustion products of smoke, correct?

~~~
untog
But more dangerous than not inhaling anything.

If people were swapping cigarettes for Juul I'd see your point, but as the
article states, they is not.

~~~
exabrial
I guess I have a hard time buying that when the article admits to strong bias
like the following:

Vaping in general, and Juul in particular, have wiped out years of hard work
to get teens off of cigarettes

~~~
untog
How is that bias? The data clearly backs up that teen rate of nicotine product
use (for want of a better description) was on a dramatic decline until the
advent of Juul.

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malshe
I don't know at this point we can call it a fad. Fad is usually by definition
short-lived. It looks like this is gonna stay.

[https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/fad](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/fad)

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jostmey
Quote "I knew that the Juul fad had practically taken over American high
schools recently...". After looking at pictures of their products I think I
understand why [1]. I have the impression that some of these products are
tailored to sell to teenagers. Last time I meet my younger brother, he
couldn't go for more than a few hours without becoming agitated or vaping. Way
to go and make that money

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JUUL#/media/File:Juul_with_pod...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JUUL#/media/File:Juul_with_pods_\(29395579877\).jpg)

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rjplatte
Wow. I had no idea that a single company had such an effect. I'll stick to my
occasional pipe loaded with organic tobacco, and enjoy my continued lung
health and lack of nicotine addiction.

EDIT: Yes, I know about mouth cancer risks, and I also know that occasional
pipe smoking puts one at approximately the same risk for various cancers as
drinking hard liquor does. If you don't mix the two activities, you aren't
raising your risk of anything, and you are lowering your blood pressure and
stress levels, so much so that pipe smokers are estimated to live about 3.8
years longer, on average.

~~~
EpicEng
Right, because tobacco never hurt anyone. On top of that, it's organic!
Probably good for you really.

~~~
dang
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone
says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
EpicEng
>Wow. I had no idea that a single company had such an effect. I'll stick to my
occasional pipe loaded with organic tobacco, and enjoy my continued lung
health and lack of nicotine addiction.

I understand that, but what is the "strongest plausible interpretation" of
this exactly? In what way is occasional pipe smoking a replacement for vaping?
In what way does smoking a pipe ensure "continued lung health"? Is there no
nicotine in organic tobacco? What is the intent of the comment to begin with?

All I see is an ignorant endorsement of tobacco smoking over vaping. What am I
missing?

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verroq
Vox did a video[0] on Juul’s marketing. Moral issues aside I thought the whole
idea was genius. Not surprised they are printing money.

[0].
[https://youtube.com/watch?v=AFOpoKBUyok](https://youtube.com/watch?v=AFOpoKBUyok)

------
simonebrunozzi
On the article’s comments, some people discuss whether vaping is as unhealthy
as normal cigarettes.

Curious to hear an opinion if any expert is reading this.

~~~
whoisjuan
Not an expert, but there's plenty of research that shows that vaping is indeed
less harmful than traditional smoking.

E-cigarettes and vaping are endorsed and used as part of smoking cessation
therapies.

However, regarding vaping itself, is still too early to tell if it is safe.
Safer than cigarettes? Yes. Chemical and toxicological studies show that
vaping/e-cigs are far less harmful than traditional tobacco.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4110871/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4110871/)

Not harmful at all? Unlikely. It's hard to determine at this point the level
of harm, but it's fair to say that any form of chemical inhalation is bad for
you (including the simple act of breathing in a city or area with high air
pollution).

~~~
theptip
That's a good overview of papers in favour of vaping -- but note there's some
conflict of interest concerns:

> Conflict of interest statement: Riccardo Polosa... has served as a
> consultant for Pfizer and Arbi Group Srl (Milano, Italy), the distributor of
> Categoria™ e-Cigarettes.

> Konstantinos Farsalinos ... has received financial compensation from
> electronic cigarette companies for the studies’ cost.

And some bold statements like this point that seems to be strongly
contradicted by the chart at the top of the OP:

> Regulatory authorities have expressed concern about EC use by youngsters or
> by never-smokers, with ECs becoming a gateway to smoking or becoming a new
> form of addiction. However, such concerns are unsubstantiated; research has
> shown that EC use by youngsters is virtually nonexistent unless they are
> smokers.

All that said, this review does provide some evidence that vaping is less
harmful -- however I'd take it with a pinch of salt.

For example, these two papers on negative effects of vaping on gene expression
in the immune system have since been published:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4819171/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4819171/)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5436899/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5436899/)

(Reported in the popular science press e.g. here:
[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160620141317.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160620141317.htm))

------
dehrmann
A coworker recently left for Juul. It was an inside joke, of sorts, that a lot
of their growth is driven by minors.

