
Immigration Bill Could Change How Silicon Valley Sources Foreign Talent - SunTzu9087
https://insights.dice.com/2019/07/15/immigration-visa-fairness-act-2019/
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digianarchist
"The bill also establishes transition rules for employment-based visas from
FY2020-FY2022, by reserving a percentage of EB-2 (workers with advanced
degrees or exceptional ability), EB-3 (skilled and other workers), and EB-5
(investors) visas for individuals not from the two countries with the largest
number of recipients of such visas. Of the unreserved visas, not more than 85%
shall be allotted to immigrants from any single country."

That is a welcome change.

~~~
oblio
I'm not from the US, nor planning to move to or live in the US: isn't this a
blatant move to block Chinese and Indians? ("two countries")

~~~
belltaco
The current system is unfair to Indians and Chinese, so they are trying to fix
that with the bill. At the same time, they put in that text to make it so that
people from other countries who are already in the queue are not adversely
affected, so it eases in the transition over two years so that people from
other countries applying in the next few months don't have to wait for
decades.

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manas666
I would like everyone answer few questions to define what is fair and what is
not:

1\. Is it fair for high-skilled Indian-nationals to wait 10+ years for a GC?

2\. Is it fair that indian consultancy bodyshops overwhelmed the IT market and
H1B quota and then brought down the wages of IT professionals via C2C, 1099,
OPT/CPT, fake resumes and other tricks?

3\. Is it fair that indian GC backlog will delay GC for other nationals, in
case the 7% limit is lifted?

I would say since Indians enjoyed getting the majority of H1-Bs, they should
also bear the consequences of hitting the country limit. Otherwise, it would
only benefit Indian nationals only at a cost of other nationals.

I am not even talking about nurses and other professions that will be harmed
by this bill.

~~~
letitgo12345
You know Indians aren't just coming from consulting companies right? They are
individuals. Is it fair that the children of Indians who have grown up in the
US have to self deport because other nationalities think it's better to
subject indians to decades long uncertainty rather than not considering race
or national origin (which would equalize wait times to 5-6 years)?

Btw pretty much NO other country in the world has national origin quotas. Are
you saying that racially discriminatory provisions put in place to satisfy
southern segregationists that no other country follows are fair??

~~~
blunte
It's not easy for American citizens to get permanent work/live visas in most
other countries either.

And it is often in the interest of each country to prevent an influx of
additional (lower wage) workers in trades that already have enough workers.

A parallel can be seen of how Walmart entered rural and small town America
years ago and killed many local businesses. It also lowered local wages,
because the primary job became Walmart Checker.

If you are a country of 330 million people, and you do not put limits on
countries 5X larger, then you will find your citizens less employed and lower
income.

This is not racist, nationalist, or any other label. I suppose you could label
it "localist", whereby you favor local resources over remote ones.

The excuse used by tech companies starting around 2000 was that there were not
enough talented local workers, so importing cheaper (and often lower skilled)
workers was the answer. That's not to imply that all foreign labor is lower
skilled. However, displacing local workers with foreign workers without some
quality control, especially where the pay is lower, will result in an
accumulation of lower skilled workers.

~~~
triceratops
> It's not easy for American citizens to get permanent work/live visas in most
> other countries either.

Getting permanent residence in any foreign country is going to be a more
difficult process than getting a tourist visa. I think you're underestimating
how much harder the American system is, and how things really are easier for
US citizens in other countries.

To take a random example, Americans can apply for work permits while
physically within Germany[1]. After some years of residency (I think it's 3)
one can apply for a EU Blue Card if one has a college degree and an employment
contract of EUR 53k/year[2] (easily attainable by a software engineer in
Germany).

So your average HN US citizen software engineer can:

1\. Interview with a German company on video chat

2\. Visit visa-free for an onsite interview

3\. Sign offer, apply for work and residence permits after relocating. Permits
are for the duration of the employment contract

4\. Get a Blue Card after 3 years

Which honestly sounds like a breeze compared to what a foreign-born software
engineer would need to do to work in the US:

1\. [https://www.internations.org/go/moving-to-germany/visas-
work...](https://www.internations.org/go/moving-to-germany/visas-work-permits)

2\. [https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/eu-blue-
card.html](https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/eu-blue-card.html)

~~~
manas666
except why would you ever migrate to Germany where wages are like 50% of the
US salary for IT engineers and like 20% of silicon valley wages for senior
folks.

supply/demand in action, and difficulty of the immigration process is just an
indicator of that

~~~
triceratops
What about fields other than software?

Besides there are lots of reasons to emigrate to Germany besides the money -
minimum 5 weeks' vacation every year, employee-friendly labor laws, cheaper
healthcare and childcare, college, more interesting city centers all sound
pretty good to me.

Also, "you can make a ton of money here so there's no need to improve our
processes" isn't a great argument for the US to make.

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filereaper
These types of Visas typically require that you do graduate studies in a US
academic institution to be considered "high-skilled". Nothing against this but
I've seen many folks add another post-graduate degree just to tick a box.

~~~
LordFast
Which should lead to more demand for professors I assume, but since academia
is tenure tracked and therefore isn't very elastic, then it leads to I guess
bigger class sizes and more administrative bloat driving up program costs,
which in turn drives up loan borrowing?

Just guesses. I'm very curious as to the feedback loops created on the overall
system.

~~~
gervase
Yep, that's pretty accurate. It also drives degree inflation in the job
market: "Why would I hire a BS student when I can get an MS or even PhD for
the same price?"

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paulgb
Text of the bill:

[https://congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-
bill/1044](https://congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/1044)

~~~
kkarakk
>It also removes an offset that reduced the number of visas for individuals
from China.

i foresee a chinese tesla within a decade that costs a fraction of the price

~~~
tomschlick
Especially so when they steal Tesla's IP
[https://electrek.co/2019/03/21/tesla-chinese-startup-
xpeng-s...](https://electrek.co/2019/03/21/tesla-chinese-startup-xpeng-stole-
autopilot-source-code-former-employee/)

------
hourislate
Here is another take on the bill...

[https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-
blog/technology/452194-fa...](https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-
blog/technology/452194-fairness-for-high-skilled-immigrants-act-exposes-
silicon)

~~~
yahelc
The author, Virgil Goode, is best remembered for this incident. It may help in
understanding his motivations in opposing high-skilled immigration.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_oath_controversy_of_the_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_oath_controversy_of_the_110th_United_States_Congress)

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jimbob45
The government would toss me out a job if someone else wants to come in the
country that can make them more money. It feels pointless to stay pledged to
one country when someone from another country can just get an H-1B visa and
take your job in a matter of months.

~~~
conanbatt
You are confusing the government with your employer.

Also, you would also be out of a job if all the tools you use as a programmer
would have to be made by americans and not imported from cheap overseas labor.

~~~
jimbob45
H-1B is a government program. They are the ones that decide if it stays or
goes. The employer has no choice but to use the program if they wish to not
fall behind their competitors.

~~~
conanbatt
Under your model it is you who is now employed by the government at the
expense of your employer. Your employer wants to hire someone else but cant,
so the government is preventing both your employer and this other person to
work together.

A priviledge is not a right.

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fickleycurious
Would it sail through Senate though ?

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conanbatt
The scariest word a law could ever have is "Fair".

I truly believe that if Americans understood how the visa process worked, they
would be appalled, even if they are hard nationalists. It's simply not rule of
law, its crazy expensive and its just plain dumb. It would be easier to
propose a special tax to foreigners that goes directly into the pockets of
americans and remove all the restrictions altogether.

Foreigners would gladly accept a 10% surtax for alleviating the ridiculousness
of immigration law.

Add: foreigners already pay surtaxes, but get no credit for them.

~~~
blunte
The titles of bills are largely irrelevant, especially in the last decade or
so.

As for taxing incoming foreigners to give to Americans, that's not what most
Americans want. What most Americans want (and i don't mean the white
nationalists) is to not lose their job to a same or less skilled person for
less pay.

Having fully experienced the dotcom implosion and subsequent H1B and
outsourcing fest, I can attest that the only two groups that gained were the
tech companies who lowered their expenses and the handlers/harvesters who
brought people from their countries to the US, kept half of their hourly wage,
and packed them 6+ to an apartment.

~~~
conanbatt
> As for taxing incoming foreigners to give to Americans, that's not what most
> Americans want. What most Americans want (and i don't mean the white
> nationalists) is to not lose their job to a same or less skilled person for
> less pay.

I'm willing to wager against this: normally people have a negative reaction to
the idea that foreigners should be second-rate citizens with higher taxation
systems, less rights and less benefits, but thats exactly the system you have
now + uncertainty. I think a deal where explicitly foreigners can't get any
state benefit and have a special foreign tax in exchange of freer immigration
would be welcome by all citizens, regardless of rhetoric.

> I can attest that the only two groups that gained were the tech companies
> who lowered their expenses and the handlers/harvesters who brought people
> from their countries to the US, kept half of their hourly wage, and packed
> them 6+ to an apartment.

If programming became a job as menial as washing dishes in a kitchen, why
would you want americans to do it.

