
Signal Intelligence Helped Shoot Down a Third of North Vietnam’s MiG-21s - vinnyglennon
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/spies-helped-the-usaf-shoot-down-a-third-of-north-vietnams-migs-ae81e42e50e7
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xnull2guest
It's a shame that a non-violent way to resolve the dispute could not be found.
In some ways this is a 'positive' story about signals intelligence - after all
it meant more North Vietnamese deaths to fewer Americans. However during the
Vietnam War and even now the public was very strongly in support of trying to
resolve the conflict peacefully; recognizing that any death, be it Vietnamese
or American, be it a fighter jet a soldier or a guerrilla, is a tragedy.

My hope would be that signals intelligence can be used to 'dissolve' rather
than 'resolve' disputes - to learn enough key information to find mutually
amicable nonviolent ends to disputes.

So on the one hand it feels good as an American to cheer for the destruction
of life that is not ours that advances our interests. On the other it feels
even better to advance our interest and the interest of others at the same
time. As the destructiveness of weaponry continues to increase all conflicts
will converge on mutually assured destruction (or mass causualty). That is to
say that the future of warfare is, and this applies probably even to the
present, that typical weapons are weapons that cause mass destruction. In this
world of massively destructive weaponry denying a country access to weapons of
mass destruction means denying them the capability to defend themselves as
their own sovereignty against the nations that do - which is a form of
imperialism that has a very long history.

All of this is a long winded way of saying that the way forward, if it isn't
to involve hegemonic imperialism, is to find ways to use non-violent
capabilities (like signals intelligent espionage, but most importantly
diplomacy and interdependent cultures and trade) to make violence the least
attractive way to end conflicts of interest.

~~~
aswanson
If only humans would elect reflective people like yourself. Alas, we are
saddled with a parliament of idiots and whores at highest elective office, as
we have been throughout history.

~~~
GabrielF00
Take a look at David Halberstam's book The Best and the Brightest. The people
who made bad policy decisions with respect to Vietnam were among the finest
products of the American educational system of that era.

~~~
aswanson
An indictment of what passes for education in the country, if nothing else.
However, I wasn't restricting my judgement of bad leadership to the U.S.; look
at the brutality of early Rome, kings throughout history, leaders of the
"people" like Mao and the Khmer Rouge, or present-day plutonium-assassinator
kleptocrat Putin. People, in general, grant power to the lowest of humanity.

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swframe
In the big picture, extremely flawed military and political leaders ordered
the killing of innocent people. Lower ranked military personnel found
interesting ways to carry out those orders. Should we ignore the big picture?

In addition, there are two sides to this story. 1) A misguided US Military
found ways to kill innocent people. 2) The Vietnam Military found a way to
defend themselves without killing anyone. Which side should we communicate as
being more clever?

~~~
adventured
Did the US have a right to intervene in the Vietnam civil war, on behalf of
the South, with the South's permission?

The North was the exact opposite of innocent. They ended up with even more
blood on their hands than the Americans (and French and British) that should
have never been there.

In the big picture, the US military ordered the killing of North Vietnamese
soldiers that were part of a plan to see South Vietnam conquered by any means
necessary so a Communist regime could be installed across the whole of
Vietnam. The North was an extraordinarily brutal regime, hell bent on military
conquest, and murdering anyone that tried to stop them from achieving the
acquisition of the South under their ideology. How about we not pretend they
were innocent, passive, peaceful, freedom loving peoples that just wanted a
unified progressive democracy for all of Vietnam.

It was little different from what happened in Korea, except thankfully the US
stopped the North from slaughtering South Korea and installing a dictatorship
there.

~~~
swframe
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War)
"However, the major allied victors of World War II, the United Kingdom, the
United States, and the Soviet Union, all agreed the area belonged to the
French."

"On 6 March 1946, Ho signed an agreement allowing French forces to replace
Nationalist Chinese forces, in exchange for French recognition of the
Democratic Republic of Vietnam as a "free" republic within the French Union,
with the specifics of such recognition to be determined by future negotiation.
The French landed in Hanoi by March 1946 and in November of that year they
ousted the Viet Minh from the city. British forces departed on 26 March 1946,
leaving Vietnam in the hands of the French."

Vietnam belongs to the vietnamese people. There would be no "South" if vietnam
was allowed to rule itself.

To stop communism, misguided US leaders decided killing several million
innocent people was justified. These leaders should be held responsible for
the death of US soldiers in vietnam. It is tragic that these US leaders were
not charged with war crimes like the Nazis.

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JshWright
I would highly recommend Robin Old's memoir, "Fighter Pilot".

It's an enjoyable read, and this was far from the only time he 'hacked' the
system to get stuff done. His units often operated in ways that evoke modern
day 'startup' culture.

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trhway
>The MiGs would zip through flights of less nimble fighter-bombers just long
enough to scare American crews into ditching their bombs or extra fuel tanks.
Afterwards, the North Vietnamese pilots would often speed back to their
bases—safe from their opponents—without even firing a shot.

curious. I'd wonder what are the chances [some of] these jets were being
piloted by Russian "advisers".

>Seven MiG-21s fell to Earth. The Pentagon had estimated Hanoi possessed
between 20 to 25 of the jet interceptors before the secret op.

Considering that it was task force of 30 Phantoms, and even if all the North
Vietnamese MiG-s were there, it wasn't a good day to be piloting MiG.

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aswanson
And human stupidity ended millions of North Vietnamese lives and about 55000
North American ones and left many more on drugs, dealing with the effects of
Agent Orange epileptic shock, while a young Richard "Dick" Cheney learned none
of the lessons of that era, dodged five drafts and started wars killing
hundreds of thousands more decades later. Rinse, lather, repeat.

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spydum
pretty cool, but not surprising. in any large organisation, there is plenty of
rule bending to achieve goals. you just can't get caught without results!

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cafard
"Signal intelligence" seems more appropriate here than "spies".

~~~
moron4hire
To hazard speaking on something of which I have no direct, personal knowledge,
I don't think it's too much of a stretch. At least the sigint folks I know
would probably call that work "spying". But that's only based on how I've
heard them talk and joke with each other.

~~~
LanceH
Collecting information from a combatant engaged in combat (even if by radio)
is very far from spying. It may be casually referred to as spying in the sense
that they target doesn't know about it, but it really isn't espionage to just
listen and look.

If we send a uniformed sniper in to look around, it is reconnaissance. If we
dress him up and give him papers to fit in with the locals he is now a spy.

