
Lenovo’s new Yoga Book replaces the keyboard with an E Ink screen - aogl
https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/30/17788476/lenovo-yoga-book-c930-dual-e-ink-screen-price-photos-release-date-ifa-2018
======
_carl_jung
I'd like to see a laptop with an e-ink display I can code on. That way I can
go and sit in the sun.

~~~
amelius
I want an e-ink display on which I can read scientific papers. Sadly, this
isn't possible unless the whole paper fits on the screen, because scrolling on
e-ink quickly becomes a real chore due to the refresh rate.

~~~
dbingham
What about the Remarkable
([https://remarkable.com/](https://remarkable.com/))? It's both got a larger
screen and it's supposed to have a vastly improved refresh rate. I haven't
tried it, but I'm really really curious about it.

~~~
Seanny123
It's beautiful hardware matched with absolutely horrid software. It's Android
4.0, which means literally nothing works. They've tried to fix it with custom
apps, but I still can't achieve a decent work-flow and there's no community to
make it better. It's actually the worst.

~~~
Thimothy
That is awfully wrong, it boots a custom linux-based OS, not Android. You are
probably talking about other device (probably the yotaphone).

[http://remarkablewiki.com/tech/specs](http://remarkablewiki.com/tech/specs)

I use the remarkable for taking notes on online courses, and works wonders.

~~~
Seanny123
Whelp, they marketed it as Android and it had access to the Google Play store,
so I thought it was Android...

Seems I was wrong! I still maintain its very poor for reading papers I've
found on my phone and then syncing the annotations.

~~~
Seanny123
Omg. I got the goodereader.com 13.3 inch confused with the Remarkable ereader.
I have no idea how, but here we are...

Sweet, this is my second stupidest comment on this website.

~~~
dbingham
Nothing shameful about making a mistake, happens to the best of us. But you
might want to edit your first comment to point out that you were referring to
a different device in case people don't make it this far down the comment
thread.

~~~
Seanny123
I think the edit button ages out and I've missed the window?

------
akegalj
You can't rest fingers on this touch keyboard the same way you can on phisical
keyboard (laying hand on a keys without enogh force to push the keys). I would
not be confortable of hovering hand all the time - usually I rest my fingers
on keycaps when in idle mode (not actively hovering above the keyboard)

~~~
pentae
This was the first thing that made me realise it wouldn't work for me also. I
wonder if they'll be able to come up with a way to measure input force as a
workaround

------
afandian
I have a first generation one of these. I find the 'halo keyboard' very
difficult to type on (then again, I find touchscreen keyboards very difficult
to type on).

You can manage a few words touch-typing but then things start drifting because
there's no tactile feedback. And unlike an on-screen keyboard, you're not
looking directly at it; that's the point of having a separate keyboard. I end
up making mistakes even hunting-and-pecking.

I used the pen digitiser for a few minutes then concluded that it has no
practical use. The included drawing app was useless for anything but doodling.
It was fun to use it as a pointing device in Android, but only fun, not
useful.

So I just use it as a tablet with a kick-stand, which is handy but doesn't
play to the USP.

But let's face it, a second epaper screen is cool.

~~~
ilaksh
The new version has haptic feedback.

~~~
_nalply
What's missing is the feeling of raised keys. If the epaper additionally could
selectively raise areas by about one or two millimeters (about 1/16 inch) then
it would be perfect.

~~~
harperlee
DIY solution: Perhaps buying a sheet of screen protecting plastic, and
carefully cutting transparent square pieces for keys (or the negative: a grid
of 1mm lanes for spaces among keys, and let the keys be holes) would be
perfect for position feedback on the fingertips.

------
mmjaa
I think this has a lot of potential to be a revolutionary product segment for
musicians, for example. So much great music software is out there, literally
impeded by not having such a great input mechanism - with something like a
reconfigurable keyboard area, it means many different kinds of (musical) user
interaction may be defined in the near future .. an interface for mixing, a
drum-pad, complex synthesis models rendered in a way for user interaction
across multiple domains - I can think of as many uses for this device, as
there are iPad apps for musicians.

So I hope some care is given as to latencies and multi-value inputs. It would
be great to have a mixer interface overlay running on this thing ..

~~~
darkerside
This would make a ton of sense as a peripheral device. An e-ink input that can
change buttons for any variety of modes you can imagine. I can't see what good
there would be in replacing a physical keyboard rather than supplementing it.

------
hackandtrip
E-ink displays are awesome and Lenovo never stops innovating. I am bit
skeptical about the keyboard feel though. I really hope that they will take in
consideration a double screen for phones too, something like the YotaPhone.

~~~
steve_adams_86
I loved the idea of the yotaphone and bought the second version (using it to
write this) but it's actually the worst phone I've ever owned by a wide
margin. The hardware quality is not great and it's stuck on a very old version
of Android.

The eink display is neat and great for navigation especially, handy for visual
notifications on a desk, but otherwise not as useful or as cool as I expected.
I kind of regretted buying it.

~~~
hackandtrip
I'd buy something similar to YotaPhone, but: \- Updates \- Active mod
community, when updates stop (this happens too soon nowadays and Yota is an
example) \- Bigger screen, something close to 6 inch.

I'd buy it because I would find it perfect for reading, and I just love the
feel, but guess it really depends.

------
s_kilk
How is anyone supposed to type on something like that?

~~~
maxerickson
Who cares.

Bringing experiments all the way to market is a good thing, just don't buy one
and you are sorted.

~~~
bryanrasmussen
bringing experiments all the way to market is really only good if anyone cares
to try them out. if no one cares to try them then that experiment has failed
in the market.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Bringing experiments all the way to market is a good way of wasting lots of
precious natural resources. The more you can test a design before it hits
Chinese megafactories and worldwide distribution centers, the better for the
planet.

------
Tharkun
With every iteration, Lenovo seems compelled to further reduce the typing
experience. They went from having awesome keyboards to having keyless
keyboards. I guess I won't be getting any new Yoga devices then.

~~~
Casseres
I personally think there will be a market for it. People are already somewhat
use to "typing" on tablet and phone screens (I make more mistakes using my
thumbs on my phone screen than typing normally on the 1st gen Yoga Book).

I like the Yoga Book because it's super-thin, smooth, and has almost no moving
parts. I think that's the future on mobile computing.

I do like the physical keyboard on my old Lenovo Yoga (S1?) Laptop though, and
I won't be getting rid of that one any time soon.

(I swapped out the trackpad on the Yoga Laptop though, they made a mistake
with that one which they've since corrected on later versions.)

------
kjullien
Bought the last generation of this on a whim, used it maybe an hour since
then.

Nothing about this is convenient except if your workflow involves you
constantly changing keyboard layout for some reason.

A lot of products like this one already exist and do things better, MS
Surface, iPad Pro etc.

I don't really understand what niche this fits in except for impulse buyers
like myself.

edit: also on last gen there was no way to store the stylus, so I ended up
losing it in a week or so. Feels like a pretty big oversight honestly, a
problem that could be avoided with a simple pair of magnets.

~~~
Casseres
I have a first generation Lenovo Yoga Book too. I mainly purchased it on a
whim too - thought I would use it for some specific purpuse, but never did.

However I've used it quite a bit since then for other things, mostly taking
notes, watching videos, and reading PDFs when traveling.

My biggest complaint with the 1st gen was the single microUSB port, this new
one looks like it has two USB C ports, that and better tech specs might make
it worth getting.

------
mxuribe
I love the concept. I myself am a fan of physical, mechanical keyboards...but
as a faux-tablet, I really am interested in this type of form factor.

------
intopieces
I am not a windows fan. Any guesses on Linux support? I’m guess none at all.

~~~
siruncledrew
There's a subsystem option for Linux on Windows 10:
[https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-
win10](https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10)

~~~
FullyFunctional
That is not the same thing and not something I'm interested in.

------
Monkeyget
I have a Lenovo X1 Yoga which, confusingly, is completely different from the
"non X1" Yoga rviewed here. Also not to be confused with the X1 Carbon which
is pretty much the same product as the X1 Yoga but belongs to a different
line. Thanks for the clarity Lenovo.

Anyway I like the balance the X1 Yoga strikes : it has a regular Thinkpad
keyboard which is nice to write code on AND it is a 2-in-1 touchscreen that
you can flip into a tablet. The keys _recess_ into the case when you flip it
into tablet mode.

------
api
My speculation for a while is that the touch bar on the Mac is a foot in the
door toward eventually replacing the entire bottom surface of the Mac with a
haptic virtual keyboard.

If it's done _very very well_ it could be awesome: durable, reconfigurable,
what's not to love? It would take getting used to but I can't see it being
that bad. But it must be done incredibly well or it will suck.

Edit: For prolonged work I would always much prefer a real keyboard, but for
that I have a USB Das Keyboard. When using the laptop on the go I'm less picky
and more interested in other things too like durability.

~~~
chaoticmass
Apple has been on a mission to destroy all buttons, so this move wouldn't
surprise me at all.

------
drej
I remember first checking out the Lenovo Book at a local store and being
mightily impressed with the hardware (bar the keyboard).

All throughout the video I was thinking "I wonder how this fares against the
Surface Go" but by the end the price was mentioned and... I'm afraid it's not
a fair race. I thought the new Lenovo Book would be priced similarly as the
previous version. Sad to see it isn't.

------
rjplatte
Dare I say... Linux support?

------
hrcxxx
Can you easly switch between different keyboard layout e.g. latin, cyrilic,
dvorak .etc. That would be a huge plus.

~~~
patrickg_zill
I would think so, since I assume that Lenovo is selling it all over the world.

I have been reading about APL and it would be cool to have the keyboard
display all the special keys also...

------
social_quotient
Unrelated. I wish there was an E-Ink baby monitor. The glow at night of the
typical baby monitor is pretty terrible. The harsh blue screen is not ideal
and I keep thinking if it looked like an e-Ink screen it would be a lot easier
to sleep next to.

------
some_account
Next generation Apple MacBook will look like an improved version of this. It
will look stunning and be very uncomfortable to use. It will have a single
USB-C slot, nothing else. Battery time will be 20 hours since they can put one
where the keyboard was before.

------
orthecreedence
Finally we don't need a bios change to switch the fn and ctrl keys, right?

------
tonyedgecombe
I wonder if this is where Apple are going to end up with their touch bar. At
least you won't need to worry about dust killing your keyboard.

~~~
ianwalter
Hah yea. Pressure sensitivity and haptic feedback on the touchbar to reduce
accidental button presses would go a long way for me.

~~~
jillesvangurp
They already have haptic feedback on their trackpad, which is non mechanical.
Merging the touchbar and trackpad would make a lot of sense; it's a lot of
real estate to waste. Oled is the way to go here though. That's what they did
with the touchbar.

~~~
ianwalter
The haptic feedback on the trackpad is amazing. I totally forget that it's not
mechanical. I really dislike how big it is though. I know Apple tries to
prevent false signals (e.g. palm touches when typing) with software but I just
don't think it will ever work well enough to not be annoying.

It would take me a while to get used to having to press a button to show the
trackpad like on the Yoga Book. I like that it automatically hides when
typing, but constantly having to bring it back up, to scroll in a small
textarea for example, would be annoying.

Merging the touchbar and trackpad, kind of like that Asus laptop that came out
recently would be interesting. I thought it would be awkward at first but a
lot of reviewers seem to think it's useful.

------
melling
“is still not as ergonomic as typing on a physical keyboard”

Typing on a laptop keyboard usually isn’t considered ergonomic.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
So, this would be completely awful, then.

------
laurentMiguel
I'm still consistently enraged at trackpads without physically distinct left
and right buttons.

No one does them right. Not even Apple.

~~~
have_faith
I always turn on 'tap to click' on my trackpad so you can tap anywhere to
click, and two finger tap to right click. I haven't missed physical buttons
since getting used to this. Is there a particular use case that the physical
buttons are better for? I can imagine gaming at least.

~~~
dpark
On most devices tap-to-click is on by default. It’s always the first thing I
turn off. I have always found it completely useless and it turns incidental
touches into accidental clicks. “Oops, guess I sent that email.”

This isn’t relevant to the parent’s complaint, though. Without dedicated
buttons, you’re relying on the driver to distinguish between a one and two
finger click. That detection, even on Apple devices, is noticeably imperfect
for reasons I don’t understand. (Click “anywhere” was solved by Apple with
their haptic not-actually-clicking trackpads that are pretty awesome.)

~~~
joombaga
Man I really disagree about Apple's new trackpads. I feel very uneasy using
them. It's almost an "uncanny valley" type feeling.

~~~
dpark
I didn’t love the massive size of the new trackpads but it took me all of 5
minutes to adapt to the click. Happy to trade off a real click for click-
anywhere behavior (and potentially better durability). Although I found the
trackpad didn’t actually click well along the right edge. No idea what that
was about.

