

The U.S. Congress is doing its best to lose the global talent war - uuilly
http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11016270

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geebee
I agree with the Economist, and PG, that the US immigration system is
dysfunctional, and keeps out top contributors.

However, any recommendation to expand the H1B program _must_ include a
recognition that this program severely curtails the freedom of the skilled
workers who come here. By and large, consuting, startups, and other non-
corporate sponsored work are out of the question for H1B holders who hope to
get a green card.

This is why I find it so irritating when people point to Andy Grove, Sergey
Brin, and other immigrants as evidence of the value of the H1B. Don't they
know these people wouldn't have been allowed to start a company under the
terms of the H1B visa?

The H1B says "we'll allow you to come here to _work_ for Oracle, but we won't
allow you to come here to start a company that _competes_ with Oracle."

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Xichekolas
_"how do you win the global talent wars when Congress is already in the hands
of the idiocracy?"_

You expect that kind of thing from a cynic, but it's pretty sad (and telling)
when The Economist is saying things like that.

It seems like anyone that takes half a second to think about it would realize
that having H-1B visa holders is a great thing for our country, but they'd
have to get past the daddy model (to borrow PG's term).

There seems to be this standard view that there are X jobs in America and that
by allowing in Y immigrants, Americans are left with X - Y jobs. But with
H-1Bs, the people are guest workers for a specific job with a specific
employer. Since they are such a pain in the ass to get, you have to reason
that the company wouldn't go to the trouble/expense if they could just hire
local talent to do it. If the choice is between an unfilled job and one filled
with immigrant, how hard can it really be?

Sadly the prevailing view is that all immigrants are bad, no matter what, and
you can't explain H-1Bs in a soundbite.

~~~
jmzachary
That might be true for small companies, but large companies (Intel, MS,
Google, etc.) might realize cost savings by the difference in wages paid to
immigrants versus U.S. workers.

I think the immigrant vs. American worker stems from a fear or intuition that
there are, indeed, a finite number of jobs and, possibly, that the number is
trending down, not up, for the developer/designer kinds of jobs. Let's be
honest here, IT, admin, maintenance, and testing jobs are lower caste than
architect, design, and coding. Jobs in the first category, on average, pay
less than the the jobs in the second. I think the number of positions required
in the second category are on the decline. As the computer software industry
matures and evolves, we just don't require so many developers. If and when we
start moving towards a realized utility computing future (Ref. The Big Switch
by N. Carr), we won't need as many maintainers and admins, either. Of course,
it doesn't help to watch many of these jobs go overseas, either. Combine that
with H1-B visas, and American tech workers can be forgiven for a little bit of
xenophobia. But, maybe it's possible that broader economic and industry trends
are the real issue. That's my theory, and I could be wrong.

~~~
sanswork
Do you have an details on the wage differences between immigrants vs U.S.
workers? I was under the possibly mistaken impression that companies were not
allowed to pay H1B workers less.

~~~
geebee
They aren't, but it's a largely unenforceable and really pretty stupid
provision in a field with such a massive difference in productivity between
workers.

Sure, I suppose you can require that a company pay some posted "prevailing
wage", but that that hardly tells you this is the wage an individual would get
if he or she were free to find another employer, join or found a startup, or
enter a different field entirely.

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gojomo
H1Bs are better than nothing, but they're kind of exploitive, bounding the
employee to a specific employer. If there's a market demand for those
immigratn skills, let all employers bid for it, rather than giving those who
master the H1B process cheap indentured workers. (The article recognizes this,
acknowledging more green cards are an even better policy.)

Any non-criminal who can pay their own food, shelter, health costs should be
allowed in. If the number of slots must be rationed, as a political matter, at
least ration them rationally, via an economic/auction process, so idiocrats
have to see the foregone revenue caused by the caps that pander to
incumbents/"sooners".

Maybe we could outsource immigration legislation to higher-quality, lower-cost
overseas legislators?

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geebee
I agree with the Economist, and PG, that the US immigration system is very
poor.

However, any recommendation to expand the H1B program _must_ include a
recognition that this program severely curtails the freedom of the skilled
workers who come here. By and large, consuting, startups, and other non-
corporate sponsored work is out of the question.

This is why I find it so irritating when people point to Andy Grove, Sergey
Brin, and other immigrants as evidence of the value of the H1B. Don't they
know these people wouldn't have been allowed to start a company under the
terms of the H1B visa?

The H1B says "we'll allow you to come here to _work_ for Oracle, but we won't
allow you to come here to start a company that _competes_ with Oracle."

------
mynameishere
At the end of the day, the country is transferred to a new and different
people. This is not a job market question--jobs and money and material
comforts pass away. The things that are fixed in number: Land, natural
resources, political power, etc, are the properties truly in play. The elites
know this, and _that_ is the reason for mass immigration...to "elect a new
people". The southwest is almost gone, the coastal regions are almost gone: As
much a Shanghai slum or barrio as anything identifiably American. In London, I
would say, "A Pakistani slum". In Germany, "A Turkish slum". In France, "An
Algerian slum".

As long as they don't steal jobs...

