
New Tube for London - jpescada
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/campaign/new-tube-for-london
======
SideburnsOfDoom
A related BBC news article is here: [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-
london-29520761](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-29520761)

Including comment from the RMT Union about how they are "deeply concerned"
about driverless operation, the "lethal and cash driven nonsense of removing
drivers"

Well... driverless operation may be "cash-driven", and TFL s often focusing on
savings over performance (e.g by removing staff from ticket and information
booths) but "lethal" sounds like a slur. Driverless trains work well enough on
the DLR in East London, and are probably an inevitable step in 21st century
London.

~~~
danielbln
Works well in lots of places:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_subway_systems#Grade_of_Automation_4_Systems)

Of course people whose jobs are affected by these systems will speak ill of
it, I'm sure the carriage drivers union wasn't very pleased with the
automobile back in the day either. We will see the same thing for trucks and
cabs real soon.

~~~
ealexhudson
Victoria, Central and Jubilee are all "driverless". But they have drivers.
There are actual reasons for this.

~~~
simpleigh
Care to share any?

Reasons I can think of:

Existing automation may be insufficiently good to cope with adverse weather
and unplanned situations. Technology has moved on considerably since the
Victoria, Central and Jubilee stock. We're automating cars now, after all. The
article mentions a new signalling system being rolled out in support.

Lack of platform-edge doors. TfL have stated they won't run driverless trains
without these. These are planned for installation on the Piccadilly line as
part of the new stock rollout.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
One of the _actual_ reasons is that drivers go through intensive training
(er...) as first-call engineers.

If a fault stops a train, it's far more useful to have someone on the scene to
try emergency repairs than to wait until the train can be cleared from a
tunnel - because a stopped train can literally hold up the commute of millions
of people.

There are also safety issues. Drivers are trained in passenger management, and
every so often they need that training to deal with fights, illness, suicides,
or all the other messy things that happen on a public transport system - the
public part of that being at least as important as the transport part.

~~~
michaelt

      Drivers are trained in passenger management, and every so 
      often they need that training to deal with fights, 
      illness, suicides, or all the other messy things that 
      happen on a public transport system
    

As I understand it in a lot of the London trains it's not possible to move
between carriages - so the driver can only deal with fights, illness, suicides
etc over CCTV or by stopping at a station?

~~~
yangyang
There are doors but they are not for use in normal circumstances. The new
Victoria Line trains were initially supposed to be "space trains", open all
the way through, but didn't actually end up getting built like that.

------
tragomaskhalos
Being called a "customer" instead of a pasenger makes me want to scream with
rage every time I hear it, especially when I imagine the consultants and
marketing gonks employed, and their fees, to push through this utterly
pointless bit of linguistic chicanery. You are public transport
infrastructure, not a fucking shop.

~~~
petenixey
You pay to go on the tube. You can choose not to. That makes you a customer of
the tube.

Far better surely that such a system is designed in mind that someone might
choose not to use it than that they'll get whatever they're given. I'm not
sure why you would be outraged by this.

~~~
Tarang
Because it's public infrastructure. TFL is a government body. We also pay to
to use the road in the form of taxes, it would not be nice for the government
to call us a 'customer'.

If thats not a good enough example, there are plenty of government departments
that require payment for their services and I think the same would apply. Like
renewing a passport, I would hate to be called a customer.

~~~
jiggy2011
The roads are free at the point of use, the tube isn't. There's also the idea
that words make a difference to how the staff will "see" the passengers and
thus how they will perform their jobs. Are they a nuisance to be herded around
or are they the people to whom you owe your job security? It's the same in IT
,it sometimes says things about a person's attitude depending on whether they
say "user" or "customer".

~~~
xorcist
> The roads are free at the point of use, the tube isn't.

Perhaps it should. Surely it must have been tried somewhere?

~~~
jiggy2011
The tube is already very busy without people using it for frivolous journeys.
At least it still costs people money (car) or physical effort (cycling) to use
the roads.

There are cities with free transit systems however.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport)

------
k-mcgrady
>> Air-cooled carriages

Got very excited when I saw this then noticed they won't be out for at least
another 6 years. I haven't been in London long but the temperature of the tube
is the worst part of the experience for me. The congestion isn't pleasant but
if the temperature was bearable the congestion wouldn't be so bad.

~~~
Shivetya
Well that was one part of the presentation that surprised me, I never expected
the trains to not be cooled and heated. This may be simple ignorance on my
part having not used most public transport systems, so is this common for
underground services? How is humidity on these lines?

~~~
davb
I was surprised on my first visit to London to see posters advising passengers
to carry a bottle of water and not travel when sick due to the heat and
humidity on the underground.

We'd get on at one station freshly showered and hydrated then get off at
another drenched in sweat and ready to pass out. We used the tube extensively
on our visit and it was by far the most uncomfortable (from an environmental
perspective) public transport system we've used.

I'm not sure what makes the London underground so different from the systems
in Glasgow (admittedly very small), Munich, Barcelona or LA. Perhaps it really
is so much deeper under ground.

That said, the contactless payment system was fantastic. Being able to use my
credit card to move around the city without buying a separate ticket was very
convenient.

~~~
gsnedders
It really is deeper than the others you list — only Barcelona comes at all
close. The other issue is it has a few lines that are _really_ crowded, which
means what cooling ability it has is pushed to its limits. The fact the
subsurface lines have had many of their historic vents closed off for above-
ground development now steam trains are a thing of the past doesn't help
there, either.

At least Glasgow has other environmental factors keeping it cool — the fact
it's a short circle with two underground crossings of the Clyde (which keeps
the surrounding tunnels cool) really helps it in the summer, as well as
moderating the temperature in the winter. It does get pretty ridiculously
humid in the winter compared with outdoors — I have many memories of walking
into the stations just to have my glasses steam up and be unable to see
anything! It's also much, much shallower than the deep level lines in London
(the deepest station in Glasgow is something like half the depth of the
deepest in London).

~~~
davb
I didn't realise passing under the Clyde had such an affect, that's quite
interesting. I would have thought, however, that being mixed
overground/underground (on many London lines) would make air circulation an
easier problem to tackle.

Ah, I do have similar memories of my (possibly rose tinted) glasses steaming
up, but it was always so much cooler and I never felt that I couldn't catch a
breath of clean air.

------
quarterto
Wow, it's about time the Bakerloo line got some new rolling stock. It's still
using stock from 1972. Even the Picadilly line's '73 stock is miles better.

~~~
simpleigh
Personally I much prefer the Bakerloo. The seats are much more comfortable
than anything more recent.

The Bakerloo is pretty low down the list of an upgrade, apparently. Counter-
intuitively this is because the trains need substantial refurbishment within
the next few years - unfortunately this will be necessary before new stock
will become available, so it makes sense to refurbish and then run for longer.

~~~
quarterto
They're only more comfortable because the springs have all given up.

------
petenixey
It's kind of crazy to think that the platform-side doors will increase service
capacity by removing the ability for people to commit suicide in front of
trains.

The frequency with which there is "a passenger under a train" must have a
tangible effect on tube capacity.

~~~
frobozz
Platform overcrowding is also an issue, and passengers are often held back in
the ticket hall or outside, because of how dangerous it would be to put more
people on an open platform.

With platform-side doors, you don't need to stand behind the yellow line.

It isn't just one-unders, but the fact that the train can't safely move off
when there are passengers right up against the train.

~~~
davedx
I remember being blown away by the platform side doors for the shinkansen
bullet train in Japan: the incredible precision with which the train doors
align with the platform doors.

~~~
lmm
Where was that? Most shinkansen platforms I've been on were in the open air.

(Also, London has had platform edge doors for a while already - only on half
of one line, but still)

~~~
davedx
Not sure... one of the Tokyo stations I think. It was still an open air
platform, but had doors on the edge of the platform around man-height that
aligned with the train doors.

------
Sarkie
What about the crappy Northern Line?

~~~
sabarasaba
At least they could put more trains to bank, why so many for charing cross..
they are always empty !

~~~
RossM
Coming from South London, it seems like every train is on the Bank branch (I
have to change at Kennington 9 times out of 10).

~~~
mattdoughty
Northern line trains on the Charing Cross branch only go south of Kennington
at peak times. This is shown on the map of the Northern line but not on normal
Tube maps.

------
bane
I wonder what the cost would look like to widen the tunnels on old subway
systems like the Tube to make for wider trains. The first thing that hit me
about the Tube when I used it is how narrow the trains are (especially the
older lines). It's not a surprised when probably most of it was dug out by
hand, but running a modern tunnel boring machine down the line and laying new
track and using the kind of ultra wide trains used in Asia would move far more
people.

~~~
alexbilbie
Whatever the cost it wouldn't be worth it.

First some lines run within metres of one another so you couldn't expand
because there just isn't space.

A back of the napkin plan if you were to go ahead would look like this:

1) Shut down the line completely 2) Remove the tracks 3) Design, build and
then get underground some new boring machines which need to be capable of
removing the metal lining, digging through earth and concrete then relaying
the lining. 4) Rebuild platforms which would inevitably be damaged 5) Relay
tracks 6) Design, build and get to London new wider trains

Realistically you're looking at 3-5 years (at least) per line to widen them.

I don't know if you live in London and are therefore aware how much we
Londoners rely on the tube - even if they only widened one line, having it out
action for that long would have devastating consequences for communities and
businesses and every day Londoners' lives.

~~~
avn2109
>> "then relaying the lining."

Former tunnel boring engineer here.

Modern TBM's usually line the tunnel with prefab concrete sectional rings,
which are built by a human-controlled hydraulic arm at the front of the TBM's
trailing gear, immediately behind the cutterhead chamber.

As far as I know, cutting heads that could bore soils/rock could not also bore
through metal lining. This is limited by the material properties of the
cutting surfaces, typically hard metals or coated ceramics. Heads with
acceptable wear rates in hard rock or soils will likely have unacceptably high
wear rates against metals.

And 3-5 years is probably a drastic underestimate of project duration.

------
haphazardeous
All I want is air-cooling as I'm sure the number of using the tube by 2020
will increase by 70% and we will still have to cram in...

------
imaginenore
Why do all subways have to have the ugliest seat cushions? It's like they
order them from the same shitty cushion factory.

~~~
NickPollard
I don't have evidence but I always assumed they do it to mask wear and dirt -
the odd geometrical patterns make it less obvious how old and dirty they are,
compared to a single clean colour.

~~~
alexbilbie
It's called moquette and "is renown for its hard wearing, durable and fire
resistant qualities"

[http://www.ltmuseumshop.co.uk/for-home/furniture/about-
moque...](http://www.ltmuseumshop.co.uk/for-home/furniture/about-
moquette.html)

------
crb
Shame they didn't go for the Siemens design:
[http://w3.siemens.com/topics/global/en/goingunderground/page...](http://w3.siemens.com/topics/global/en/goingunderground/pages/home.aspx)

To me, it seemed like it would stand the test of time a lot better.

------
jmngomes
I'm curious on how responsibility works in this case, e.g. a driver can be
held accountable for causing an accident, but who is accountable for bugs
causing accidents? The software house? I can only imagine the price of civil
responsibility insurance for this...

~~~
troymc
The software industry has a tradition of inserting a "Disclaimer of Warranty"
and a "Limitation of Liability" into all licenses. Do those hold up in court?
I don't know.

It _is_ bizarre. Imagine if car companies did that.

Example 1: The GNU GPL, sections 15-17,
[http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html](http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html)

Example 2: Microsoft Services Agreement, sections 11 & 12:
[http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/microsoft-
service...](http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/microsoft-services-
agreement)

------
TamDenholm
Didnt the tube just get a bunch of new trains in the last couple years? I seem
to remember there being a big deal about it because some of the long serving
train drivers retired rather than learned how to work the computerised ones.

~~~
sksksk
Different lines have different trains. The shallow level lines got new trains
recently, because the lines were built using cut and cover (like in NYC), they
were easily able to add air conditioning.

These trains are for some of the deeper level lines that were built by using
tunnelling machine to bore deep underground.

------
endeavour
"Air-cooling" sounds like a gimmick rather than an actual solution (i.e.
proper air conditioning).

You see this on adverts for new-build flats in London too. "Comfort cooling"
often just means a fan blowing hot air around.

~~~
mynameisvlad
It's impossible to have actual AC on the trains, there's simply no space, and
there's no real way to make space. Furthermore, you have the issue of venting
the hot air 20m underground.

------
JonnieCache
_> The trains will be designed and built to be capable of fully automatic
operation. When the trains first enter service, they will have an operator on
board. We would only consider implementing full automation following extensive
engagement with our customers, stakeholders, staff and trade unions.

We are committed to having a fully-staffed Tube network, on hand to assist
customers and ensure safe operations. Given our existing train fleets, all
drivers currently working at London Underground will be able to continue to
drive trains for the remainder of their careers._

And so, the battle lines are drawn. They seem keen not to annoy Bob Crow and
the unions too much, considering there's an election next year. I'm sure he'll
react calmly, like he usually does.

EDIT: whoops, he's dead apparently.

~~~
colinramsay
I don't think he'll mind too much seeing as he died in March:

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26527325](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26527325)

------
alimoeeny
That was disappointing, so still by 2060 the only progress is better doors,
60% more capacity, air cooling, and driverless? that's it?

~~~
nodata
What would you like to see?

~~~
cpplinuxdude
Mobile phone network, for 2g and 3g. Stockholm has them, so surely it can't be
that hard.

I know this doesn't affect the trains directly, but surely it's something they
have to take into consideration, especially during their announcement of their
plans until 2060 god damn it.

London keeps boasting "best city in the world, best city in the world", yet
its citizens are under increasing work pressure, and simultaneously cannot
send or receive emails during their daily commute.

Sure they have wifi in the stations, but by the time you login (assuming
you're paying because see, it's not free) you train has arrived.

I remember my holiday in Tel Aviv. I was skyping on the beach, on public free
wifi.

Then I return to London, and nope, back to being offline, while on my way to a
high tech job. And we're supposed to be a cutting edge city? Explain how.

~~~
corin_
I'm no expert, but I imagine the most cost effective way to do this would be
to have wifi along the lines rather than on the trains themselves - even if
I'm wrong about that, installing wifi onto a train isn't something that needs
to be built into the train from conception, and is something that anything
they plan into it now will probably be obsolete in its tech standards by the
time these trains launch in ~10 years.

On the subject of current station wifi - who has to pay? Certainly for me
(Vodafone customer) I get it free, it's still provided by Virgin but they give
a semi-whitelabelled login page for Vodafone (I don't have to login, it just
takes 10 seconds when it opens the authentication page and verifies me on the
network). I also find it great (albeit not as great as solid coverage all
along the line) to be able to hook back onto the network as I travel through
stations. It doesn't require me to re-auth each time, so essentially every
minute or two my phone can sync emails, twitter, whatsapp, etc. leaving me the
actual driving time between stations for reading/responding as needed.

------
binarytrees
Meanwhile California can't get high speed rail, or connect LA Metro from 7th
street to the terminal.

------
lucio
The music and video, subconscient reference to Spirited Away?

------
Dwolb
'Future proofing' is not a good sign. Typically it means 'architectural and
cost inefficiencies because we don't want to institutionalize knowledge'

~~~
corin_
When creating trains for a service that is growing in usage on a consistent
basis you can either future proof it (i.e. make it bigger/better than it needs
to be right now so that it can survive X years of growth) or you can not
future proof it (i.e. make it exactly what's needed right now and a year later
you're wishing you could upgrade it). It's the same reason when you buy a
computer you think about the next year or two of use rather than your previous
year or two of use.

------
swombat
Why is this top of HN? These trains, even modernised, are years behind other
underground systems like Hong Kong... And this won't even be out for years.

It's nice news for London commuters, but hardly "Hacker News". Flagged.

~~~
jpatokal
Because they're modernizing a system that started operating _151 years ago_?
The Hong Kong MTR, by contrast, dates to the misty antiquity of 1979.

~~~
tonyhb
And the Hong Kong MTR was designed by the same architect that worked on some
of London's line extensions. They had a huge amount of experience and learnt
lessons to pull from over the hundred years London's underground had been
running.

~~~
NickPollard
Also, I don't know what Hong Kong is like, but London has been a major city
for about 2000 years, and under the surface contains not only rail lines, but
sewers, tunnels, underground rivers, burial pits, bunkers, luxury belgravia
basements, and the detritus of two millennia of occupation.

Trying to dig anything under London now is a _huge_ effort because of all
this.

This is very much a 'move slow and try not to break anything' environment.

~~~
gsnedders
Case in point: the Crossrail tunnel through Tottenham Court Road has about
85cm clearance both above and below it, _and_ had to be constructed with the
Underground tunnels around it still in active service.

Building new lines through relatively soft clay is _really_ hard when you have
hundreds of notable historical buildings that you cannot afford to have _any_
subsidence (like, millimetres is enough to cause really damage), and then when
you don't really even though where half the other underground pipes are
exactly (many of them are hundreds of years old, and some we simply don't know
exist)… It's a real challenge.

