

RIM kicks Kik off Blackberries: Revokes keys, disables push - alanh
http://www.kik.com/blog/2010/11/rim-blackberry-kik/

======
axiom
This is just painfully stupid. Finally an app on Blackberry actually garners
some attention, and RIM kicks it off the market.

For anyone who has ever bitched about Apple being draconian, this is just
another example of what the mobile app world was like before the App Store. It
really wasn't all unicorns and rainbows and happy developers skipping through
the meadow. It was locked down and cost absurd amounts of money to break into.

~~~
bebeastie
It depends how you define 'stupid'.

I see advertisements day in and day out for BBM. Not for RIM's latest phone,
not for a new RIM app, but specifically for BBM. Why? Because RIM has realized
that one of the only things keeping a large % of their user base around is
BBM. Their OS is horrible, their devices are nothing special, but BBM is
arguably the best mobile messaging product out there (so good that Kik pretty
much copied it exactly).

I have friends that won't replace their BBs solely because they feel as though
they'll lose touch with their friends that use BBM (I know, SMS, email etc.
all seem like fair replacements but in practice they aren't...BBM is superior
for a # of reasons).

Now, what is Kik doing? It is offering a comparable messaging platform that
allows BBM users to speak with their friends no matter what device they are
using. If I tell my friends with BBs to get Kik and we all start to use it
consistently, then eventually one of us can go get that iPhone we've always
wanted. Then another one etc.

Kik is on the verge of breaking into the walled garden that is BBM and RIM is
obviously not too happy about it.

~~~
thought_alarm
The lock-in argument doesn't hold much water.

RIM already provides IM clients for Google Talk, Yahoo, and MSN, with pretty
much the exact same UI and features as BBM. The quality of their Google Talk
client is one of the things keeping me on BlackBerry.

~~~
nikster
None of these are especially created for mobile. Or aimed squarely at BBM with
the same features.

I had been thinking about creating BBM for other platforms simply because I'd
like to have it on my iPhone.

~~~
hugothefrog
WhatsApp is a near approximation of BBM on the iPhone (and other devices, I
believe).

Their reliability isn't great, however.

~~~
ba217
WhatsApp has better reliability, more handset clients, more features, and more
users.

------
faramarz

      [Update: RIM has now responded with the following comment,
      referring to a breach of "contractual obligations," but is 
      not specifying what those obligations were: "RIM became 
      aware of a number of issues and customer concerns regarding 
      the Kik app and service. Following discussions with Kik, the 
      app was removed from BlackBerry App World on November 12. 
      Upon further investigation, RIM concluded that Kik had 
      breached contractual obligations. Based on the broad scope 
      and seriousness of the issues and concerns, RIM terminated 
      its agreements with Kik and withdrew RIM’s support for Kik’s 
      service.']
    

[http://www.nytimes.com/external/venturebeat/2010/11/23/23ven...](http://www.nytimes.com/external/venturebeat/2010/11/23/23venturebeat-
is-rim-flexing-its-muscles-by-kicking-out-po-10529.html?ref=start-ups)

~~~
nikster
Translation: "You're competing with our BBM service and you have to go before
it starts costing us sales".

------
jeffclark
If RIM gave them no indication of why their keys and access have been revoked,
that'd be understandably weird.

However, RIM previously took them out of App World because of privacy and
battery life concerns. These are two of the most basic concerns of mobile app
users.

If that's why they were permanently yanked from App World this time, RIM is
acting in everyone's interest.

Regardless of how viral your company and it's products have become lately,
your users should come first.

~~~
alanh
Disagree.

1) Kik claims to have already submitted a new version of the app that
addressed these concerns.

2) The app was already approved and into the store. How is his responsible
behavior?

3) How does further disabling Kik’s ability to distribute new versions of the
app (by revoking signing keys) help?

4) How does crippling the UX (by disabling push) of the existing install base
help anyone? That isn’t, as you say, putting users first! (And I don’t buy
that this would improve batter life — this is the whole idea of push, it’s
better than long or frequent polling!)

I’d bet this is almost entirely because they see Kik as a competitor to BBM
(which it is).

 _Edited in reply:_ Removing from the app store is one thing (done ~2 weeks
ago). Breaking existing installs for no real good reason is pretty
indefensible, IMO.

~~~
jeffclark
1) Kik claimed. RIM may not have agreed.

2) Maybe it was flagged after it was originally approved.

3) I agree. I'm not sure how submitting a BB app works - I assumed the key was
at app-level, not company-level, but I've never submitted a BB app before.

4) This is probably related to the battery life issue.

Don't get me wrong - If they kicked it out for being "too similar to BBM",
that's a dick move. But if Kik didn't patch their app to sufficiently fix the
battery and privacy issues, it makes sense that RIM wouldn't want to
officially distribute it.

~~~
extension
_I'm not sure how submitting a BB app works_

With your dev license, you get access to RIM's signing service. You can
distribute code any way you like, but you have to run it through the signing
servers before it will run on a device. To shut you down, they just disable
your account. Code that is already signed will run forever.

~~~
apenwarr
That's not actually true. You can sign an app without going through RIM; they
provide code that does it. (Unlike iPhone, you can just download an app from
anywhere on the Internet and install it, as long as _somebody_ has signed it
with any key at all.) However, you can't use their push servers without a RIM-
signed app, which has apparently been revoked in this case.

~~~
extension
Right, I forgot, there is a subset of the API that can be used by unsigned
code but it's extremely limited.. just UI stuff I think.

------
sp4rki
Kik is exactly what the mobile ecosystem needs. The only thing it needs is
brand support. If Apple and Google made official messaging apps based around a
central system with BBM's features, it would probably muscle RIM into either
joining on the open messaging solution or dying a slow death.

If both Android and iOS devices could talk to each other via a system like
BBM's, it would easily mean RIM's services getting phased out. It's either BBM
for the masses or BBM only for Blackberry users.

I use a Blackberry because of the BBM. In my country it's a necessity, so it
doesn't matter how much I want an iphone, it makes no sense while Blackberry
and it's messaging app are so widespread and there are really no competitors.

If Kik where to get bought by Google and the big G gave free access to that
service (and Apple integrates it by default on it's iPhone and iPad) it could
very well mean RIM's demise.

------
Fjslfj
The Kik fairy tale never made sense. One of the guys behind the company was a
PM at RIM, if I remember correctly. The entire UI of the app is a direct rip
of BlackBerry Messenger. It was only a matter of time -- I wonder when RIM
will sue them.

~~~
alanh
Sue them for what? Are trade secrets involved? Are the bitmaps directly lifted
from RIM property? Because there is no copyright protection for the general
idea of an interface!

 _Edit:_ Patent ≠ copyright, but nonetheless a patent suit would be
interesting, damned weak, and unlikely to be resolved for years (IANAL)

~~~
mikeryan
_Because there is no copyright protection for the general idea of an
interface!_

This isn't actually true, you can patent interfaces. Notoriously, a TV channel
guide which has a grid interface with channels and times represented as
columns and rows is patented (originally by TVGuide, now owned by Rovi). Every
Guide you see on a cable or satellite box in the US pays a licensing fee to
Rovi.

<http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=1998053607>

~~~
orangecat
Wow, and filed in 1998? How is every spreadsheet in the world not prior art?

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gabea
This is surprising to see. It has to be some type of a misunderstanding. If
RIM took this down because kik competes with BBM then they are taking yet
another step towards putting themselves out of business.

------
tici_88
Not duplicating or competing with the BlackBerry email as well as messaging
(BBM) is an explicit part of one of the several legal agreements that
developers and RIM partners have to agree to. Technically, KiK is in violation
of these terms, which in turn gives RIM legal grounds to kick them out.

~~~
hboon
Does that mean Whatsapp is also in violation?

------
dedward
As soon as we have a reliable app that competes with BBM for ease of use and
reliablity and is cross platform, everyone I know who can afford it will
immediately dump their blackberries and switch to Android or iPhones. Staying
in touch with their friends who can't afford such changes right now and are
"stuck" on the blackberry right now is the only thing keeping a whole lot of
people from dumping them.

------
lordmatty
Once again somebody suffers because they compete directly with a core feature
of a platform they use to distribute/market themselves.

It wouldn't surprise me if all (FB, Apple, Twitter, now RIM) but one (Android)
digital platform curation teams acted in the same way. Of course, it is their
platform, their right.

Android can afford not to because Google have a different business model.

~~~
moxiemk1
Android seems to have the same problem with Skype: since Google's business
model is different from the other mobile OS developers, it falls to the
handset makers and carriers to make those sorts of ridiculous decisions.

Verizon being the sole carrier with Skype will hurt Skype's adoption on mobile
phones because if you want to talk to someone with an Android phone, they have
to be a Verizon customer. Thus, it isn't a given that they will have the
ability to Skype, so you use the mobile phone network, inferior as it is,
instead.

~~~
nedrichards
Sole carrier with Skype in the USA.

------
mike-cardwell
I'm not sure publishing an open letter to Blackberry is going to help Kiks
cause. If there was any chance of them getting back onto Blackberry they
should have kept the conversation private. The publicity generated by this is
just going to cause resentment at RIM and Kik isn't big enough for RIM to
worry about yet.

------
zyb09
That's strange, while that's a normal breakfast task for Apple, RIM's really
not the company to do things like that, even if the app affected battery life
and what not. Pretty sure there are some dirty things going on behind the
scenes, maybe someone else can provide more insight.

~~~
imack
I can only speculate on the reasoning, but Kik competes with BlackBerry
Messenger, which is one of the key features that keeps Blackberry competitive
in the smartphone market. Its exclusivity to Blackberry devices gives them
some network-effect lock-in to the vendor and it is the best messaging system
out there.

A lot of their marketing is focusing on how great BBM is and how buying a
Blackberry gives you access to this exclusive network of people. BBM is also
the source of all those issues in UAE and India where its so secure that
governments were threatening to block Blackberry because they couldn't snoop
on BBM messages. Basically, BBM is the killer app on Blackberry.

Kik would commoditize BBM across any platform allowing users to freely move
between them. The literature for Kik itself describes it as a BBM for all
platforms, and I can see how RIM would be concerned that they'd lose one of
their few advantages in the smartphone market if Kik supplanted BBM. Again,
not sure if this actually was the "behind the scenes" cause, but RIM would
definitely have a motivation to kill Kik.

~~~
zyb09
That sounds probable, but I don't think that's the whole story. First, every
major IM provider is available on BlackBerrys (AIM, MSN, GoogleTalk, ICQ,
WhatsApp...). Most of these clients are even co-written by RIM themselve and
use the same BlackBery-PUSH service as BBM. Just take a look here:
<http://appworld.blackberry.com/webstore/category/51?lang=en>

Also they didn't just kick them out of the store, but revoked PUSH and
signature keys, which is pretty a drastic move on their side. That makes me
certain there is more to it.

~~~
masklinn
> That sounds probable, but I don't think that's the whole story. First, every
> major IM provider is available on BlackBerrys

Other IMs are very, very crummy experiences compared to BBM between BB
devices. Kik is the first one that may be able to compete with and replace BBM
(if only because it took a lot of "inspiration" from BBM), which is a big
danger for BB as BBM is the only strength they have in the consumer market (in
the US a blackberry is a corp phone, but in Europe it's used a lot by high-
texting-volume teenagers and young adults)

------
st3fan
Goodbye Blackberry.

------
pkaler
The ironic part is that Kik is a Canadian company also in Waterloo.

~~~
coryl
Where's the irony?

~~~
pkaler
Tragic irony, not verbal irony. "Paradox that arises from insoluble problems."
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony#Tragic_irony>

RIM kills Kik to save BBM but is probably killing themselves.

