
Ask HN: I think I want a divorce - throwawayIn2019
I&#x27;ve been on HN for like 6 years, so I needed a throwaway.<p>Married for over 10 years. No biological kids together but we do care full-time for 2 kids. My wife and I get along great. I love her. We have fun together. It almost feels like we are friends more than spouses though. We sleep separate too because she snores and generally restless and I need quiet (ear plugs and a mask). I also only sleep 4 hours.<p>I think I am ready for a change. I have goals still in life. I&#x27;ll never accomplish them or be given the chance to accomplish them. I&#x27;ve always locked myself away and worked on my ideas. Since being married I can&#x27;t. I don&#x27;t know when the last time was that I worked days straight hacking out a rough idea for a project. I miss that.<p>I&#x27;ve talked to my wife about it. She says she wants me to be happy, that I&#x27;m a great husband and if this is what I need to do she understands.<p>So why am I posting? I&#x27;d like thoughts on this? Did I miss thinking about this decision in some key aspect. Any light to be shed before I decide to change my life?
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altairiumblue
> She says she wants me to be happy, that I'm a great husband and if this is
> what I need to do she understands.

If she's really understanding about separation (but presumably also wants to
be with you), she will also be understanding about managing your time spent on
work or with her.

Figure out how to manage this and still be a good husband.

> Married for over 10 years. ... we do care full-time for 2 kids. My wife and
> I get along great. I love her. We have fun together.

Don't leave the most important person in your life just because you want to
lock yourself away for days and work.

Stay together.

~~~
asdkhadsj
Agreed. This would be a different story if she was making you choose between
work and love, but she sounds supportive. I highly doubt any project is worth
rushing to extreme lifestyle changes, killing relationships with no known
gain.

Work with her, try to get what you both need. Communicate.

------
quietthrow
Dear ThrowawayIn2019,

I sympathize with your situation. Before you can get meaningful advice can you
post how have you taken responsibility for the situation you are in?

My $0.02 - you should seek marriage counseling or help from a professional
rather than a community that you irrationally feel close to but in reality
does not know anything about your and more importantly your kids and wife’s
situation. I think your wife and children deserve more than that for an
outcome that could be life altering for everybody involved.

------
seren
It understand that you are missing is some free time to have a more fulfilling
life. And I somewhat share the same urge to have more free time to pursue some
technical endeavors.

Luckily, I have a few weeks every year when my wife is in vacation with the
kids away from home while I keep working. So I have absolute freedom again for
a short time !

So yes, the first few days I use my free time to look at some technology or
experiment that are on my backlog and this is great and I do enjoy it.

However, depending on how frantic the day is at work, I generally don't have
enough stamina to sustain a full day work, followed by a few hours of self
study at home. So basically after 1 or 2 hours, I quit and go to bed. And
after a few days, enjoying my free time, the excitement subsides somewhat, I
get bored and I miss my family.

So basically, what I concluded, that even if magically I was free of all
family constraints, I wouldn't probably be coding all the time, and likely
more miserable.

In your situation, before triggering the divorce, I would at least try to
negotiate with your wife to try to have a week/a month with more free time,
eventually away from home. It is possible you will not enjoy it as much as you
think you would.

------
towaway1138
I've been married (or the common law equivalent) three times, each about ten
years. (edit: no biokids either) I can definitely relate, and you have my
sympathies. That said, what you've said doesn't sound like a very bad
situation to me (perhaps because mine seemed quite a bit worse).

Regarding "friends", you don't say it, but are you having regular, reasonably
enjoyable sex? If not, and it's due to her refusals, I'd leave. If so, she's a
friend, or perhaps an adult child, not a wife. One can imagine medical
exceptions, etc., but if she's not at least giving mercy handjobs, it's over.

Regarding "goals still in life", everyone differs, but I think later in life,
those goals won't seem very important, compared to family. I had such goals,
and even some minor successes you might have heard of. But ultimately there's
no there there. Everything technical that you work on will be dust very soon.
Read Ecclesiastes and absorb the lesson. (The common versions are hard to
read, but there's a modern paraphrase that's very readable: Nothing New Under
the Sun: A Blunt Paraphrase of Ecclesiastes by Adam S. Miller.)

Beware that there's almost no limit to how bad a divorce can turn out. Two of
mine were very unpleasant. The third almost killed me, and arguably ruined my
life. Your wife might turn vicious in a divorce--it happens. I work a full
time tech job, and after alimony and taxes, I'm left with about US$4000 per
year to live on. I supplement this by drawing from retirement accounts, with
the 10% penalty. I'm not rich, so this stings. Other parts of the divorce,
harder to describe here, are far worse.

Regarding interruptions, can you just go to a library or something and work
there for a few hours at a stretch?

Finally, someone mentioned "earning" a divorce. I don't think this frame is
productive. If your marriage is not working for you, and there's no reasonable
chance that will change, you have the right to leave.

Good luck.

------
antoinevg
From what you said I think you overestimate how happy working on your own
goals will make you and I think you underestimate how happy your marriage is
making you.

It doesn't have to be either/or. Look at the excluded middle.

~~~
throwawayIn2019
I have thought about both of these. It's weird, before my wife, I was very
happy just living in a small place, just me, doing my work. We really do have
a lot of fun.

We tried a middle ground to where we each have dedicated time each day for
work and goals. However, this never implemented well. She would come in a
bother me for the smallest things. I explained I need to focus and she just
does it again 5 mins later. So I drop back and punt and hang out with her and
the kids. When she needs to work, she gets that dedicated time. I think the
main reason she is always on the phone or Skype or Zoom and therefore she is
never interruptible.

~~~
seeker61
In other words, she doesn't respect the deal she made with you.

~~~
throwawayIn2019
I honestly think she just doesn't know how. I don't think she is trying to be
dis-respectful. She just needs that close personal contact and interaction
through out much of each day.

Our goals in life are very different. The way we work is very different.

~~~
seeker61
I suggest that you re-read the things you've written about her with the
following question in mind: "Am I making excuses for her behavior?"

------
why_do_you_
Why do you have such a profound desire to work?

In my life, this has been a coping mechanism. A way to ignore deeper personal
problems. I have spent thousands of hours retreating to a fantasy world of
code where I am in total control. The more time I spend here, the more I want
to stay.

This entire process started at an early age for me. A poor childhood. I turned
inward. No friends. My validation and meaning came from coding.

I have created application after application, thinking I was solving problems
or doing something meaningful, but these were just rationalizations to avoid
confronting my demons.

Might this be a similar case for you? Is more time to code what you really
need, or is it something else?

~~~
throwawayIn2019
Perhaps. A very poor childhood. A product of foster care. I paid my way
through school by working 3 almost full-time jobs at the same time plus
school. This made me just keep going every day regardless. But working so much
gave me no time to do anything I wanted to.

Fast forward to now. I'm over 40. I have loads of things I wanted to
accomplish by now. Every day I start out at 4:30am good but once the wife and
kids are up. There goes my productivity.

Plus, coding is all I have ever done. I started with c++ at 13 and to sit and
write code for my own goals just brings me so much happiness. To see it
working, see others using it. Hell, even banging my head against the wall
solving problems makes me happy.

------
bengunnink
Don't ask the peanut gallery. Go see a marriage counselor.

~~~
throwawayIn2019
A marriage counselor is just one person. The peanut gallery is more people
giving advice from different perspectives.

~~~
bengunnink
A marriage counselor is someone who is trained in dealing with your particular
problem.

Would you walk into, say, a car dealership and ask for programming advice? Or
would you talk to someone who programs for a living?

~~~
throwawayIn2019
I totally see your point.

Technically if you asked enough car dealerships the same question you will get
a mixture of right and wrong. If you ask just one you get just one answer, is
it right or wrong?

I think your main point of seeing one is valid. We should consider doing that.

------
java_script
As a full-time tech worker, time management is just as important with your
off-hours projects as it is in your 9-5. You can only do so much (time is
finite) so it's important to know when to drop a side project when the ROI
isn't quite enough (in this case I'm talking about your wife).

Not being able to hack out a project for days straight is simply unhealthy.

Here's my advice: Divorce your wife, and to feel solid in your decision going
forward, write "I divorced my wife for this" at the end of the Github
README.md for each of your stupid bullshit projects.

~~~
throwawayIn2019
I see where you are coming from with the snarky reply. That helped a bit
actually because the other projects I have released have paid for our life
together. I managed to do these a few years ago while she was traveling for
work and I was caring for a relative. I need to use my time as productively as
possible.

------
true_religion
It may be going against the grain here, but you should get a divorce.

You have talked to her and she says she is "okay" with a divorce so she too
can do her own things, thus there is nothing really keeping you two together
except inertia.

Stay friends, live separately, and wait out the year before finalizing your
divorce.

I was in your same situation 2 years ago; I had reached a plateau and wanted
to lock myself away like I used and simply work on my ideas. I contemplated
that I would never be able to do such a thing whilst married. In the end I
decided I _wanted_ to be married, and the only reason I was flirting with the
idea of separation was the irrational belief that I couldn't do X whilst
married.

You certainly can lock yourself away whilst married. Will it hurt your
relationship? Yes, yes it will, but it won't damage it irreparably any more
than going on a long overseas business trip or being deployed with the
military for months. It puts a strain on everything, but its survivable so
long as---you both want to be married to each other and can't stand the
thought of divorce yet.

If you want a divorce, and she wants a divorce, then regardless of the reasons
there is nothing to work on---just let the relationship dissolve as it is
unwanted. Just be aware, that you won't just be losing your wife here---you'll
be losing your best friend and you have to ask if you have enough friends to
lose that one.

------
bsvalley
Would you rather die alone in a closed room in front of your computer, or
would you rather die in the hands of someone who loves you more than anything
else?

Life is all about compromise. If you don't want to compromise on anything, so
be it. That means you will spend the rest of your life with yourself. Unless
you find the perfect female clone of yourself, which doesn't exist. This is
also valid for friends, family, etc. We're all different in this world.

------
qwertycrackers
Your situation is extremely similar to the one my dad faced many years ago.
Stay together. Even though my parents handled the divorce quite well, and co-
parented effectively throughout it, his decision eventually cost him the
goodwill of me, my brother, and our entire family.

If you do this, at least one person you love will grow to hate you.

~~~
throwawayIn2019
Thank you for sharing. I do imagine that no matter how OK my wife is, her
family will be blowing up my phone for sure. Also, I think my mom will have
something to say about it. My dad will offer to take me to a strip club. You
can't pick your family.

~~~
tabhygfr2
You didn't mention the most important people in GP's comment: the children.
"we do care full-time for 2 kids" is pretty vague, but it sounds like they
probably see you as their parents, at least emotionally.

What effect would this have on them? How would the events unfold in their
eyes? Family.... family..... family.... and then: BOOM WTF JUST HAPPENED?

------
happppy
This passion will fade one day and you will have nothing but regrets. Sorry
but this is the truth.

~~~
throwawayIn2019
I think about this too. Is this a temporary feeling?

My wife read your comment and said "I don't know if your dedication would
fade."

She remembers when we were first together and I was selling my software off to
a company. I had only been in Silicon Valley for 2 weeks when we met. I hadn't
ever had a Starbucks and for some reason I walked by one and stopped
in....what a cute Barista.

Thank you. I think I need to really consider where I am at in life and if
there is a way to satisfy us both.

~~~
happppy
This may not be temporary. Your might not fade but there comes a point in your
life when you can't fulfill your passion like old age, or some accident(I
shouldn't say this) and at this point, you will need your wife or vice versa.
So look for workarounds.

------
fghtr
Do you really need to divorce in order to try "working days straight hacking
out a rough idea for a project"? Can you just try to live separately for some
time before making such a decision?

~~~
throwawayIn2019
In our state we must live apart for 1 year before being able to get a divorce.
Living apart means though that we still need to sell the house, divide
possessions, etc.

------
darawk
I know almost nobody else here seems to agree with your sentiment, but I do.
This is my biggest fear, getting stuck in a relationship that prevents me from
pursuing my passions in the way that I want. I want to be able to spend days
hacking on things whenever I want.

I don't have specific advice for you, other than to say that I feel you on
this, because I feel like this thread has been fairly one-sided thus far.

~~~
throwawayIn2019
Yeah, I get why there is a shade of one-siding. What I am considering doing is
worth fighting for. This means something different to each person.

------
tabhygfr2
Paraphrasing a memorable quote from one of my favorite blogs:

They mistakenly think they have fallen out of love with each other. _How can
you mistakenly think you have fallen out of love with someone?_ Well, people
can mistakenly think they have fallen in love with someone, can't they? So why
not the opposite?

------
aprdm
I just went through a divorce very recently and was in a very similar
situation (great as friends, not so much as lovers after 10y) !! Was very
friendly.

A mix of sadness and relief, was certainly for the best. We continue to be
great friends and talk as often as when we were married.

~~~
throwawayIn2019
How did you and your SO start talks about getting divorced?

~~~
aprdm
Hmm one year and a half before separating we recognized that we needed to
improve our "romantic" life, some stuff was tried from both sides and
ultimately we decided that we didn't see each other as "lovers" anymore but
only as friends and it would be for the best to not try to be married anymore.

~~~
throwawayIn2019
It's always baffled my why a "romantic" life needs to be so hard for both
parties to agree how it should work. You just do it. You make it a priority.

Yet "romantic" life is a huge issue for so many married couples. If I asked
every one of my couple friends I get I would get a 100% or at least 99%.

Thanks for sharing. Helpful.

------
tmaly
Try reading the book Never Split the Difference. While it is primarily about
negotiation, there is a huge component to listening and empathy.

I think if you try to apply some of what is in the book, you may reconsider
this idea of a divorce.

~~~
throwawayIn2019
Thank you. Ordered. Next day.

------
davismwfl
I think you need to think about things more. Locking yourself away for days to
code isn't healthy for anyone, whether you are 20 or 40 doesn't matter. There
are ways to treat snoring, she can go to the doctor and figure that out. In
fact, her snoring could be sleep apnea or similar causes and be life altering
for her.

At least based on what you wrote here you don't deserve a divorce yet, you
haven't earned it. You are contemplating one out of convenience rather than
necessity. I have been divorced and am remarried, we've been together a little
over 10 years total now and known each other for ~12. I can tell you getting a
divorce should be the last resort, and it should be for reasons that are
seriously unfixable. If you need to alter your lifestyle some to attain your
goals (or at least try), do that with her and talk to her about it. For
example if you want to do a marathon coding thing, ok, take a 4-5 day
sabbatical to isolate yourself and work on an idea, no harm there. She'll work
with you on that, especially if she sees it makes you happier.

If there are other reasons, like there is no love, you fight all the time in
front of the kids, there is abuse, my answer would be different. But even now,
go to couples counseling and see how you can figure it out before divorce. At
the same time, if you are just set on being free of responsibilities and don't
care, than you are right to get a divorce cause you would be a horrible spouse
to someone (that doesn't make you a bad person in anyway, it just may be who
you are). One thing I have learned, to stay married you have to sit down and
renegotiate things every so often, because we all change as we age, so be
open, talk about how things are different and figure out a new norm that makes
both of you happy. This is why I highly suggest getting some outside help,
they help you figure that out and negotiate it the first time.

Divorce sucks. It is the greatest destruction of wealth in America and is a
horrible contentious process that is many times avoidable (but not always). I
have seen friends (more than one couple) both agree they are getting a divorce
and both say it will be totally amicable and they already have everything
figured out. That lasts until they start doing the real math and realizing
asset splits, retirement accounts, new rent, car payments, house, dog, bank
accounts etc. Suddenly things get a lot less nice and people get hurt more
than they already were which just feeds the fighting. And once attorneys are
involved you will piss away $15-20k easily between you two, likely much more
if there are decent assets to deal with, 6 figures on a normal 40 something
year old couple that are moderately successful is not rare. Also, in my state
like many others, the person with the greater income also has to pay the
attorney fees (amongst other fees) of the person with the lessor income. It
was designed that way to offset someone who made $250k/yr from taking
advantage of the spouse who made only $50k/yr, but the way it is applied
generally isn't so judicious. An example, my ex spouse and I had a difference
of $20k a year in salary and I was ordered to pay all her fees, plus give her
a bunch of cash and while we didn't qualify as a long marriage so no alimony,
the judge punished me with way above normal child support. Also, take into
account, you've been married what is considered "long" in most states (> 7
yrs), so someone will likely be getting alimony. Again, she can say she
doesn't want it but if you are the major income provider she'll do the math
later when her friends/family are talking to her and you will be paying it.

My whole last paragraph is to point out, do you really have it so bad as to
accept all that as an outcome? I didn't even address the kid situation really,
but that is even harder to deal with in many ways. So again, have you earned
your divorce through attempting to fix everything for long enough with enough
tools, resources etc? You may have in which case do it, and I wish you the
best, but if you haven't please reconsider and figure it out for your own
benefit.

~~~
throwawayIn2019
Thank you for taking the time to write this.

The thing is she is ok with a divorce too. She has things she wants too. It
would be uncontested and I think we just need to file in court. No need for
attorneys.

Snoring: We have tried everything. Weight loss, exercise, no alcohol. I
started wearing ear plugs and a mask. She had a CPAP machine too. She just
doesn't stick with any of it.

Earning a divorce: I'm not sure how to answer this. I need to read what you
wrote a few more times.

~~~
davismwfl
Yea, I get she is ok with a divorce right now. But once her friends and family
start talking to her they will convince her to talk with an attorney to
“protect” her interests. Frankly I would totally encourage you to do so too.

Divorce seems so simple on the face of it but I promise it gets complicated
fast.

My ex and I had everything negotiated too until her mom and a friend got in
her ear. We even had what was fair child support setup and already working.
Than it turned into a battle after she talked with them.

As for earning a divorce. It means different things to different people
overall. But to me it means you both have exhausted all practicle means to fix
things and have put forth real effort for a sustained time. If you do this
than that is when divorces usually are pretty easy because both of you know
you put your all into trying.

~~~
throwawayIn2019
I didn't think about this. Thank you for mentioning it.

------
cimmanom
It sounds like you’re on the fence, so you must also have some reasons you’re
considering staying married. What are they?

~~~
throwawayIn2019
I love her.

I promised "till death do us part" and I feel bad that after all this time I
want to do my own thing.

I know she will move back home and I may never see her again.

She doesn't like to live alone.

~~~
ytNumbers
Pick an upstairs room to do your work in. Put a big sign on the door that says
you may only knock on the door if the house is on fire. When you're ready for
a break from working on your project, then open the door. Anyone who ignores
the sign gets an immediate "Hey! Can't you read?!!"

~~~
throwawayIn2019
Maybe we can put an addition on our house to make it a work space or move the
kids to the addition and use their bedroom as my work space. It has an
insanely large window and overlooks the lake.

~~~
tomasdore
Perhaps the answer is as simple as an extension for you to work in, which is
set up as an airlock-style system of doors, so that you are not really
disturbable by your wife. I mean simply three or more doors in a row, with a
little gap between each. A den, if you prefer. Or an inner sanctum. It is at
least worth a good try.

------
Faucheuse
I'm pretty sure reading this you can achieve what you want WITHOUT the divorce
=S

------
Spooky23
Sounds like you need some therapy first.

~~~
throwawayIn2019
Thanks. We are talking about this.

------
morfizm
I went through two divorces, and some of my considerations was along the same
lines (not enough time and creative energy for my own ideas) (spoiler: I
thought I could work more on my own ideas, but in the end, I couldn't).

Looking back I think I could've done better at least in the first one, where
we were left with shared custody of kids.

Several points to take into account before making a decision like this:

1\. It wasn't clear from your description whether you're going to share
custody of those two kids. If you are (and if you cared about a kid long
enough, even if it's not yours, you probably are!), then doing it while living
separately (and, perhaps, each having a separate partner) is going to be a
much bigger effort, which will negatively impact your ability to work on your
own ideas. You'll pretty much do all you do today as a parent, spend
significant time on commute, spend money, and then spend time, money and
emotional energy with a new partner as well. If it ends up this way, it can
feel very very limiting.

2\. It's possible that your discomfort about living together with someone has
more to do with your own habits, way of organizing your life and space and
your thinking, then with the choice of a specific partner. E.g. you may run
into the same problems with the next woman if you live with her. If you don't,
dating while living separately, presents its own set of challenges and does
take time and effort (you get some of the freedoms, but if you see each other
regularly, time becomes an issue, compounded with a longer commute!)

3\. Loved ones often play inspirational role. You get more time and freedom,
but possibly less inspiration - will it work?

4\. Some of the problems like you mentioned can sometimes be solved with more
space. Have you tried moving to a bigger apartment or a house, where you'd set
up a quiet workspace for your own projects? It may be worth ($$) investment. I
actually regret that I didn't approach my relationship problems as "not enough
space problems". Especially given that you describe your wife loves you and is
supportive of your needs. Throw some $$ into the problem: make more space,
make more time (e.g. hire a nanny, a housekeeper).

5\. Take your 10-year old desires with a grain of salt. Are you sure you
really want it, or is it just a memory from the past? You can test-drive it
without separating permanently.

6\. Enjoying the relationships is a skill. There are trained professionals who
can help both you and your wife to improve that skill, called "marriage
counselors". Definitely worth a shot.

7\. If you're in the U.S. and were married for over 10 years, and your wife
making less money than you (at least 20% difference), there are high chances
she'll be eligible for lifetime spousal support. Think of monetary
consequences and limitations they would impose (especially weighting it
against "throwing $$ in attempt to improve things"). Consult with a divorce
lawyer for more information.

8\. Don't stress about it too much, if it ends up in a divorce, try to stay
friends, collaborate if there's possible shared custody, and move on. Divorce
isn't end of the world.

