
Roma Gypsies flee to California after Europe turns more hostile - open-source-ux
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-19/roma-gypsies-flee-to-california-as-europe-turns-more-hostile
======
oblio
The story seems a bit "feel-good"-y. Many Roma don't have the resources for
this kind of trip. They're among the lowest social classes in relatively poor
countries (think average wage of less than $500 per month).

About discrimination... yes, there is a lot of it. It's a cultural thing. The
traditional Roma culture is close to incompatible with modern societies:
nomadic societies (in a world of property rights), arranged marriages for
teens (as young as 12-14), a culture valuing "face" and prestige incredibly
highly (think possibility of violent clashes for offenses). There's also a
probably reasonable from the Roma point of view "moat mentality" where outside
help is viewed with a lot of suspicion, based on past discrimination. Overall,
a very hard nut to crack, this discrimination, for both sides.

~~~
DrJokepu
A one way flight from Europe is North America is not that expensive
($300-$800), it's something even poor people are able to save up for and
larger families are able to pool their resources together. The practice
described in the article has been fairly common for well over a decade now,
but previously the destination was typically Canada rather than the United
States.

~~~
fennecfoxen
> It's something even poor people are able to save up for and larger families
> are able to pool their resources together.

And if you prosper in this new land, you send remittances.

------
yahesop
>Americans who have never dealt with gypsies think their gypsies are anything
like Europe's.

Pretty much every country with a big gypsy population in Europe has programs
to integrate them and have given them a chance (Romania, Spain, Portugal,
France etc). Gypsies in Europe have repeatedly refused to integrate into our
societies and while some do integrate and leave the gypsy life behind (I
personally know one such person) they are the exception to the rule. Those who
do face tremendous discrimination and have a hard time finding work. Why is
that?

I would argue that racism (or xenophobia) stems from repeated, bad, past
experiences with a group of people. The gypsies are one such group.

They deal in petty crime in every city, in organized crime and ATM theft (they
make the ATMs explode at night and take the money), abduct children to raise
as their own or as sex slaves, are untrustworthy in any exchange you might
have with them (either they sell you crap and in that case you will never see
them again or they sell you good stuff then come back later to steal it from
you), if you wrong them in any way they will come back in huge groups and
exact revenge, they roam the country and set up camps in private property or
forests and leave a mess behind and last but not least if they have
documentation the women will have dozens of kids and abuse the welfare
systems.

How do you resolve this with "those poor gypsies are being persecuted, just
give them a chance"? This is how they are, you can't change them no matter how
many programs, education or money you throw at them.

~~~
tdkl
To also add what those who have no clue about gypsies don't understand is that
even if some of them want to become integrated, they'll get oppressed by OTHER
GYPSIES, because their culture is at stake etc. Can a gypsy be racist to a
fellow gypsy?

I'd be interested in hearing the answer, but presumably it will be nonfactual
nonsense.

------
tetrep
> “The stereotypes of them panhandling and engaging in petty thievery just
> stir up these prejudices.”

> In Sweden, politicians are debating whether to ban begging, a tactic critics
> say targets Roma.

So, the stereotypes are true? From what I can tell, the Roma have a distinct
way of life that they're seeking out, making them a bit different than
socioeconomically transient groups that are struggling to integrate and
succeed (i.e. various influxes of immigrants at different stages of US
history).

~~~
kpil
I would say that the stereotypes are mostly true, in the majority or minority
(whatever it is) that is visible.

I am sure there are a reasonably sized portion of Roma that do not live up to
the stereotype and are treated unjustifiably bad, but that is not what is
noticed.

I am also sure that the Roma have a really hard time living in Romania and
Bulgaria.

However. During the recent 5-7 years or so, several thousands (25.000?) of
Roma have semi-permanently migrated to Sweden, and there is now a beggar
outside literally every super market, liqueur store or hardware store in
Sweden. Wherever you go. Even in the smallest and most remote village.

Other than begging, many of them are making a living by stealing - mostly from
elders, picking pockets or ripping necklaces, shoplifting, and to some extent
prostitution - all of which has become a problem in some areas.

An unusually publicized event was that a Romanian Roma that got arrested for
kicking a pregnant mother of two in her stomach when she challenged him when
he was trying to steal a wallet from an elderly person.

As a side note, it was not reported that he was Roma because ethnicity is
characteristically not considered "important" in Swedish media. If mentioned,
Roma are euphemistically called "EU-migrants" by media, presumably because it
is considered racist to single out an ethnic minority. As there are about
1,000,000 actual legal (working) EU-migrants in Sweden, it is actually rather
misleading and confusing.

Sweden have a bit of a embarrassing history with our own Roma - we deported
most of them to Finland in the 17th century, supposedly because they were a
nuisance - and had a really hard line "integration" policy with the remaining
few until 1975 or so, where many were sterilized, and many children were taken
from their parents.

Because of that, and also because Swedes are generally very kind-hearted - the
authorities have been very lenient with the newly arrived Romanian Roma, and
although they are not really allowed to stay here for more than 3 months, it
is not enforced at all. Slums have been allowed to be built, and families with
children are allowed to live in circumstances that would immediately lead to
an intervention from the social agencies if they were not Roma.

Only recently the tension has been rising, partly also because the 500.000 or
so refugees that have come here during the same period.

The social welfare providers have been starting to refuse to offer schools (as
they have done) and medical help, on the ground that they are not actually
residents.

Talks and agreements have been made with Romania and Bulgaria, and some have
been offered repatriation and economic help in Romania.

As a side note, the "indigenous" \- mostly Finnish speaking Roma that moved
"back" to Sweden from Finland are not faring that well either. A police
register of more or less every single Swedish Roma living in southern Sweden
was leaked to a newspaper a while ago which lead to a lot of media attention
and accusations of racism.

The regional police was criticized by politicians and the politruk top brass,
and was criticized in an internal revision, but it was also closed without
further actions, as it also turned out that every single person on the list
was either a recently convicted or suspected person, or closely related to or
living with a recently convicted or suspected person.

So yes. Stereotypes seems to be true. There are strong cultural factors that
seems to hard to change, and there are probably enforcing mechanisms but those
that actually really suffers are the Roma themselves. If there is any
violence, it's almost exclusively within their own group, and the economic
damage is actually not that large.

~~~
guard-of-terra
> families with children are allowed to live in circumstances that would
> immediately lead to an intervention from the social agencies if they were
> not Roma

That's totally baffles me every time. Let real degenerates do whatever they
please, but terrorize middle class families? That's what "social agencies"
seem to do everywhere.

------
M_Grey
I hate to say it, but if I were one of the groups that had a hard time in
Europe circa the 1940's, I'd be packing my bags too. There's a reason that so
many Jews got the hell out of France in the last few years. It might be
paranoid, but we've all seen how far the alternative gets you.

~~~
welanes
> There's a reason that so many Jews got the hell out of France in the last
> few years.

Do tell us that reason.

~~~
SolaceQuantum
France has had a rising antisemetic sentiment along with the defacing of
Jewish cultural sites, along with a sharp increas (think double) over the last
year or two of hate crime against Jews.

[http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jan/18/france-
might-n...](http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jan/18/france-might-not-
have-any-jews-in-the-future-and-h/)

~~~
guard-of-terra
What do you think, what specific demographic group in france is most visible
in antisemitic sentiment, defacing of Jewish cultural sites and hate crime
against Jews?

~~~
sorenjan
I can't speak for France, but in Sweden the vast majority of antisemitism
comes from muslim immigrants.

[http://translate.google.com/translate?u=https%3A//samtiden.n...](http://translate.google.com/translate?u=https%3A//samtiden.nu/15599/ta-
unga-invandrares-antisemitism-pa-
allvar/&hl=en&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8)

[http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//www.express...](http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//www.expressen.se/kultur/toppnyheter-/nalin-
pekgul-hatet-mot-judar-gror-i-tensta/&hl=en&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8)

~~~
M_Grey
Vast majority of antisemitism, or vast majority of antisemitic crimes? Not to
put too fine a point on it, but Jewish people are not exactly unaware of how
the vast majority of the Islamic world views us, talks about us, and would
very much like to treat us. We're also not likely to think that just because
they're the loudest, they're somehow the only ones either.

It's a bit like the trouble Americans seem to be having with racism, in that a
whole generation of kids was taught that racism looks like the KKK or Jim Crow
Laws. Far more prevalent and insidious though, has always been the deeply held
belief that people know you only talk about among 'like minded' individuals.
That way of thinking is much older than the KKK; it gave rise to the KKK. You
can kick down an organization, but you can't do the same to a mode of
thinking.

You can only outlive it.

~~~
kpil
Both?

Antisemitism in Sweden is almost exclusively found among the Muslim
immigrants.

Politically the left is a bit blindsided in the Israelic-Palestinian conflict,
but that is another issue, as is the strongly secular society's discomfort
with all deeply religious groups, including (very) orthodox Jews.

------
orf
So I really try not to be judgemental and I feel a bit bad saying this, but I
don't have a single good thing to say about Gypsies and I've never met someone
who has. At least about the ones you see in the UK.

They are a huge problem in the city where I went to University, constantly
draining police resources to deal with petty crime. Everyone I've talked to in
front of house roles absolutely hated dealing with them as well, if not
stealing they always seem to find hair in something and so get a refund or a
discount.

Where I grew up they caused huge problems when they moved camping ground,
draining council resources and never clearing up after themselves. They left
huge piles of litter in the most beautiful countryside spots.

There is an interesting documentary about UK Gypsies called 'Big Fat Gypsy
Weddings', it's worth a watch if you're interested in that sort of thing.
[http://www.channel4.com/programmes/big-fat-gypsy-
weddings](http://www.channel4.com/programmes/big-fat-gypsy-weddings)

Edit: And I don't like the 'well you must be racist if you think this'
comments here.

~~~
MrMullen
Won't these be "Travelers" and not Roma?

~~~
jdietrich
There are around 200,000 migrant Roma in the UK, with another 200-300,000
people who meet the broader Council of Europe definition of "Roma". Irish
travellers are the main other itinerant group; estimates suggest that there
are around 25,000 Irish travellers in the UK.

All of this data is fairly vague, because itinerant people are inherently
difficult to survey. There is only a single census category for
"gypsy/traveller", so that's of little help. Many indigenous British
travellers do not identify themselves as being Roma and have unclear origins,
further complicating the situation.

[http://www.salford.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/363118/...](http://www.salford.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/363118/Migrant_Roma_in_the_UK_final_report_October_2013.pdf)
[http://itmtrav.ie/irishtravellers](http://itmtrav.ie/irishtravellers)

------
woodcut
1400 years of persecution has culminated in a denial of access to basic
education, healthcare and representation in government. The stereotypes
applied to a people who live on the edge society are to some extent true for a
dwindling minority who eschew societal norms, but who can blame them. Without
access to the jobs market and a path to integration they're largely kept in
their place. The response of Romania upon joining the EU was to thrust their
failure to integrate the Roma on to other EU member states, who in turn have
refused to offer anything resembling comprehensive help. It's sad that there's
no realistic prospect for integration and no EU state truly believes in
constitutional multiculturalism anymore so no protections will ever be
afforded to the roma as are to jewish, christian & muslim minorities.

~~~
welanes
> The response of Romania upon joining the EU was to thrust their failure to
> integrate the Roma on to other EU member states, who in turn have refused to
> offer anything resembling comprehensive help.

Can't speak for the entire EU, but in Ireland Roma have the same opportunity
as any EU immigrant. There's no concerted effort to integrate them nor is
there institutional prejudice to keep them down. Just good old apathy and a
pretty solid social security system.

Any 'failure to integrate' is entirely on their part. Many are fully
integrated, some are my friends. Others continue to live lifestyles similar to
what has been described in the comments.

~~~
woodcut
I was trying to point out the nuance between an integrated multiethnic society
and a multicultural one involving multiple parallel societies where to a
certain extent a minorities own laws take precedence. Going back to the
article, I think minorities have an easier time coming to terms with fractured
identities in America as at least one can be American-whatever, unlike in
Europe in my own experience where you're simply "not from here".

> "nor is there institutional prejudice to keep them down"

It's pretty well documented:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiziganism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiziganism)

------
whybroke
It will be an interesting experiment since the vast majority of Americans have
none of these stereotypes. The word Gypsy conjures solely the image of a palm
reader and the word Roma means nothing to the vast majority.

Their speech will sound like Russian to the American ear and their appearance
will match that impression.

So, if the trend somehow continues or expands, we have a chance to see whether
the exact same stereotypes re-emerge or whether they too end up following an
unremarkable integration trajectory.

~~~
bertil
I feel like the millennia and holy and sacro-saint tradition of beating people
at the ATM to steal their cash will match a very potent reaction in the land
of the gun-totters.

~~~
donw
California doesn't allow citizens that live in major metro areas to carry
concealed weapons, unless they are employed as armed security, or are
politically connected.

------
nikolay
Because most of you don't have any idea about Roma Gypsies, please, watch this
[0] hour-long documentary when you get a chance!

[0]: [https://vimeo.com/13906172](https://vimeo.com/13906172)

------
nikolay
Roma Gypsies have been unsuccessfully trying to integrate into Europe since
the 15th century. It's funny how the human rights Nazis support them but care
less about their helpless and hopeless victims! In Bulgaria, many retired
people live daily under the Gypsy terror, and nobody cares! These double
standards make me sick! There are rights but rights come with
responsibilities! If you reject to accept your civil responsibilities, you
waive your rights - it's that simple!

~~~
caf
As opposed to the _actual_ Nazis that sent them to the gas chambers.

The entire point of universal human rights - which grew out of the aftermath
of that same Holocaust, incidentally - is that you _don 't_ waive them, ever.

And it's particularly abhorrent to suggest that the rights of an entire group
can be collectively abrogated by the actions of some - or even many or most -
of that group.

~~~
tdkl
That's a cute and proud theory until the ones who pay the bills are in place
where they feel the government is neglecting them in favour of others and the
economy isn't helping as well. You know, the citizens/taxpayers. Specially the
lower and middle class, which is getting rare because of globalisation.

Everything has its price.

~~~
caf
That's a cute retort until it becomes apparent that many of those
citizens/taxpayers are quite happy for their government to expend great sums
of money in the service of brutalising others.

[https://www.theguardian.com/news/series/nauru-
files](https://www.theguardian.com/news/series/nauru-files)

------
vonnik
I lived in Europe for 14 years. I had several Roma friends, and I also had
several family members (grandmother, father) robbed by Roma in the street. I
don't see much benefit to letting those who want to leave Europe live in
America. Many Roma populations are mired in multigenerational poverty, with
all the vices that tend to accompany that condition.

------
woodcut

       "Gaunt face
       dead eyes
       cold lips
       quiet
       a broken heart
       out of breath
       without words
       no tears"
    

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Sinti_and_Roma...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Sinti_and_Roma_Victims_of_National_Socialism)

------
nickbauman
I've had brushes with Roma in Italy. They're very hard-pressing when begging,
but other than that, they seemed OK. People were really not nice to them,
though. It scared me a little.

~~~
bertil
If by “hard-pressing”, you mean beat people down, empty their pocket, break
doors to empty houses, tear away the pipes, steal your car… then yeah: you
have the reason why people don’t like them a lot.

------
MrBuddyCasino
Not sure why the downvotes. Feel free to visit Roma housings provided for
those in need in northrine-westfalia, and witness behaviour that can only be
described as anti social.

Like literally throwing trash out the window, social security fraud, theft,
begging and overt hostility to "intruders.

But feel free to click that downvote button, the warm fuzz of perceived moral
superiority feels great doesn't it?

~~~
omginternets
You forgot "threatening to kill their children when police try to make arrests
at camp". I leave it as an exercise to any incredulous reader to look this
shit up.

People who shout 'racist' in discussions about Roma have never interacted with
Roma. What's worrying (to me) is that these do-gooders don't seem to realize
that their behavior is pushing otherwise moderate people to the far right. The
far right is literally the only political arena that recognizes that such a
problem exists.

~~~
girvo
> _People who shout 'racist' in discussions about Roma have never interacted
> with Roma_

The issue with that sort of reasoning is that it is word-for-word exactly what
was said about Black people... and is still said by some. So people have a
pretty understandable reaction to it, regardless of the merit of it within a
particular context.

~~~
omginternets
Yes, and I can totally understand that. That's the hard thing when discussing
Roma: they really are a special case, and said case doesn't map onto anything
the American public has experienced.

The other thing that makes it difficult is that they objectively have suffered
at the hands of the Nazi regime, so it's easy to start accusing critics of
supporting such policies. In my experience, this is rarely the case, and doing
so only lends legitimacy to far-right political groups.

That said, it's possible to be critical of a clear and consistent pattern of
behavior without calling for violence.

~~~
fennecfoxen
> they really are a special case, and said case doesn't map onto anything the
> American public has experienced.

The American public has experienced a variety of urban certain inner-city
communities comprised largely of African Americans. They are culturally
distinctive, and members are easily recognisable as such by their appearance
and their typical clothing.

Due at least in part to a multigenerational history of prejudice and
mistreatment, these communities are wreaked by poverty, both petty and violent
crimes, alcoholism, and use/abuse of illegal drugs. Some group members
ostentatiously reject the idea of "integration" into the more prosperous bands
of American society, and have published many popular rap songs glorifying a
"gangsta" lifestyle characterized by violence and objectification of women. It
is possible that this is self-perpetuating to some extent, as the culture's
family structures (a very high incidence of single-mother families) and the
culture's values (especially regarding education) may not be conducive to
modern prosperity.

And yet we're generally able to say as a nation that African-Americans have as
much potential as human beings as any other, morally and intellectually. We
call on each other to treat each other, and all people, as individual humans
and not to judge them by the colour of their skin but by the content of their
character. It's hardly a conflict-free relationship, but it's something.

So I'm curious what's different specifically with the Roma that maps onto this
experience so poorly, or whether it's just the larger surrounding cultures not
having a well-developed culture of tolerance. Do tell.

~~~
bertil
I have never heard of African Americans emptying a house while the elderly
occupants are still in, tearing apart the pipes to re-sell for tin, throwing
the occupants down the stairs to die in agony, with a broken hip, for hours,
all that for 50c worth of copper.

If it happened, I have never heard Jessy Jackson explain on national TV that
this is perfectly normal and that property is a cultural thing and that that
kind of “cultural misunderstanding” is entirely the fault of Police brutality
and forced education.

I have never heard of African American claims that at 6’2” tall guy with
visible muscle lines, a full beard and a deep voice is 12 y.-o., has not
document to prove it, and therefore cannot be charged with grand larceny and
barbaric violence, even if he was caught in the act and the whole thing is on
tape.

I have never heard Rev. Jesse Jackson explain that forcing the public rape of
an 11 y.o. by her 13 y.-o. cousin is also a cultural thing.

When a African American drug lord is arrested, his gang might challenge the
authorities and defend him, but the vast majority of his victims, generally
also African American, rejoice -- they do not spit racist slurs.

Some, very few, African American can, on occasion us racially charge epithet.
They do not casually say that the live of a Gadjo is not worth the clothes
he’s wearing and you’d be happy to help yourself if he were your size. To his
face. African American don’t see White Americans as cattle to prey upon.

The contempt some, most Roma have for Gadjo, is reminiscent of WWII rhetoric.
Europe has changed since; not sure Roma culture has. If it has, the groups
that are far more visible to Gadjos in Europe didn’t get the memo.

~~~
fennecfoxen
> I have never heard of African Americans emptying a house while the elderly
> occupants are still in, tearing apart the pipes to re-sell for tin, throwing
> the occupants down the stairs to die in agony, with a broken hip, for hours,
> all that for 50c worth of copper.

Copper theft is a big thing in the US:
[http://www.cnbc.com/id/100917758](http://www.cnbc.com/id/100917758) \- I'm
sure there's someone in the US who did something close enough and we could
find a sensationalised headline if we did enough research. You probably just
have that one case embedded in your brain because it matches a preexisting
narrative, a trivially common form of cognitive bias.

> I have never heard Rev. Jesse Jackson explain that forcing the public rape
> of an 11 y.o. by her 13 y.-o. cousin is also a cultural thing.

It's true, Jackson is more about defending people shooting the police with
cries of "black lives matter!" while gang shootings continue to take about 13
black lives a day (and there's a lot more tragedies like Tyshawn Lee's than
Laquan McDonald's out there.) If that's not practically an endorsement of
having different values for what goes on inside the borders of a different
culture, I'm not quite sure what is. And even if not, that's one man's
specific political views versus an unsourced assertion and it fails to
satisfy.

> When a African American drug lord is arrested, his gang might challenge the
> authorities and defend him, but the vast majority of his victims, generally
> also African American, rejoice -- they do not spit racist slurs.

Well, the police force is multiracial in a lot of cities, so racist slurs
aren't always appropriate. There are plenty of places they'd just cry "Fuck
the police!" etc. Inclusion on the police force may be a key difference,
actually, though it's hard to be itinerant and hold that kind of a position at
once.

> African American don’t see White Americans as cattle to prey upon.

Guarantee you there are _some_ thugs out there who do. I wouldn't generalise,
but I'm not yet confident that you should generalise either.

~~~
bertil
I have to be honest: I am not as familiar with the US as most people on Hacker
News.

> that's one man's specific political views versus an unsourced assertion and
> it fails to satisfy.

I’m not trying to tell anymore.

I have asked to journalist friends why they do not write on the topic, and
none gave a reasonable answer. I can assure you that my experiences are
mirrored by people who were confronted to bad situations; people who weren’t
just find it incredible and dismiss them.

> I wouldn't generalise, but I'm not yet confident that you should generalise
> either.

I don’t want to. I would like to see the ties between the violent thieves that
I was confronted to and the glorious culture that I heard so much about.
Internal tensions in the community are probably fascinating… but it’s
completely undocumented. Once again: I answered questions about why Europeans
have such a violent reaction to Gypsies. There are countless incredibly
shocking anecdotes of open racism against gadjos. I know my stories are true.
If you want to finance journalists to look into it in more details, be my
guest. I have tried, and I really hated the response I got from Roma
officials.

------
GFK_of_xmaspast
It's always a little surprising when you're talking with someone from Europe
and they seem to have pretty reasonable views about the world and then
somebody brings up the Roma and hoo boy the mask comes off.

~~~
hubert123
I know this is hard to believe but there are actually groups of people who are
worse than other groups of people. I know, it boggles the mind sometimes.

~~~
blacksmith_tb
Hmm, not sure I can agree, but for the sake of argument, I assume that you
don't think every member of said group is bad? Or every member of a 'better'
group is good? That would be a very bold argument, which would require
remarkable proof.

~~~
corysama
Any time any person on the internet says "this group has this property" and
they are not talking about math or other pure-logic topic, you can and should
assume they do not mean literally " _absolutely_ every member of this group".
This statement included. It would a very bold argument that no one makes, but
many people frequently counter-argue against. It's extremely common to see
people get themselves worked up arguing fervently against claims no one made.

Keeping this rule in mind will save you and everyone else in the discussions
from a long, frustrating, pointless arguments from extremes and semantic
nitpicking.

------
guard-of-terra
“There’s a lot of prejudice against Roma in almost every country in Europe,”

For example, I've seen a few of them around ticket machines in Bologna railway
station, Italy - trying to extract some forgotten change from the machines or
harrass it off passengers.

Can I call this not prejudice but actually a mature judice? 'cause I've never
seen anybody else do it.

You get to have prejudices when you behave like that.

~~~
dragonwriter
> For example, I've seen a few of them around ticket machines in Bologna
> railway station, Italy - trying to extract some forgotten change from the
> machines or harrass it off passengers.

I've directly witnessed lots of white Americans do lots of horrible things, in
many cases horrible things I've never witnessed people of other ethnic
backgrounds doing.

If I then decide that white Americans as a whole are horrible people who do
those horrible things, its still prejudice -- I am prejudging individuals
based not on nothing but their ethnic similarity to people I've witnessed
doing bad things.

~~~
guard-of-terra
If Americans start to come to other countries and behave obnoxiously, those
countries definitely have rights to kick them out and prevent any more
americans from coming.

~~~
estebank
> If Americans start to come to other countries and behave obnoxiously,(...)

I believe you just described a good chunk of American tourists. :)

And a good chunk of all people, everywhere, for that matter.

~~~
allendoerfer
While I interpret both as signs of overconfidence, there is a difference
between talking to loud in public and throwing trash on the streets of your
state supplied house.

------
mavdi
You did an amazing job turning the blame on the Roma themselves.

~~~
darawk
What makes you think they aren't to blame?

~~~
mavdi
So you're saying Roma people are born evil? Like if you grabbed a Roma kid,
well fed and educated, taught the right from wrong, and you would still get a
petty thief? Like the society and policies have no effect on them?

Is this hackernews or did I just accidentally open up the comment section of
daily mail?

~~~
Pica_soO
Some cultures have built in defenses - like conspiracy theories, unfollowable
rules for outsiders and micro-agressions to uphold.

But yes, you could reeducate that kid- but are you actually saying that a
destructive culture should be dissolved by reeducating? Mao would be so proud
off you. Speared on his own mental censor-scissor!

In all seriousness, the most interesting thing that was dissolving these anti-
modern Regressor-cultures are smartphones and the old, non censored internet.
If everyone can look over the fence, even the children, suddenly the
conspiracy stories are difficult to entrench.

~~~
viraptor
> are you actually saying that a destructive culture should be dissolved by
> reeducating? Mao would be so proud off you.

Isn't this the main idea behind modern jails? (Idea, not implementation)

------
barking
The first time I ever saw a roma it was a young lady at the checkout in front
of me who was obviously just learning how to do the change of a fifty swindle.
Her trainer appeared from nowhere and rescued her by interrupting and asking
some dumbass question about some item he'd pulled off a shelf and then they
both left

~~~
wnoise
The first time you recognized one, maybe. And why are you certain she was
Roma?

~~~
barking
Pretty certain and I met a few after through my work. She was strikingly
pretty in the roma way (like a very fair Indian person) and was dressed in the
roma style. Our town of 20,000 people went from zero to several hundred roma
at that time.

------
klodolph
I'm going to take the moral stance here that _even if you actually are making
a factually correct statement of fact_ it is wrong to make prejudiced / racist
comments. "Roma are __", "black people are __", "Mexicans are __", it looks
like you're playing a racist version of mad libs to the wide-eyed people
listening to your hate. And no, I don't give a damn about your personal
experiences with ethnic group X, Y, or Z.

Let's keep it civil, folks.

~~~
sliverstorm
Come again? If I am to say, "Elbonians are statistically 2000% more likely to
be five foot three", I am making a racist comment?

~~~
klodolph
Think of a Venn diagram, with one circle being "correct statements of fact"
and another circle being "racist comments". The two circles intersect, that is
all, and my claim is that "I am making a statement of fact" is not
_sufficient_ to claim "I am doing nothing morally wrong".

~~~
JoeAltmaier
The truth is supposed to be a perfect defense against charges of slander or
libel.

~~~
klodolph
Legally correct, but irrelevant. Defamation is not the only thing which is
wrong, and there is also a wide gulf between "legally wrong" and "morally
wrong".

I'll defend your right to make racist comments with one hand while I call you
out for making them with the other.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
So intellectual honesty is wrong because of the 'racist' brush? You can paint
anything you want with that.

This is the anti-intellectual America that I fear. Decisions made based on PC
doubletalk. Folks discredited and ignored because they don't talk the official
line.

~~~
klodolph
I disagree with the idea that you can paint anything as racist. Ideas can be
expressed in many ways. Yes, I agree that it's a problem when people get
discredited and ignored because they don't talk the party line. However, when
I came into the thread it didn't look like a "party line" issue, it looked
like a thread full of people sharing stories about how awful Roma are. That
has nothing to do with intellectual honesty, it's just wallowing in hatred.

The thread appears to have changed since then. The early comments were
garbage.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Fair. I stand corrected.

