
India's First CPUs Are Ready for App Development - sbmthakur
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/india-shakti-cpu-processors-sdk-risc-v,39781.html
======
lifeisstillgood
This is big news - open hardware backed by a major global power is going to
have a real affect - and the fabs don't have to be the 10nm billion dollar
versions. If the indian government can start using some muscle here - all
government IOT devices must use this processor and this software stack and you
can see a global standard emerge from the open standards. I think I might be
dreaming too much

~~~
slang800
> all government IOT devices must use this processor and this software stack
> and you can see a global standard emerge from the open standards

Why would India-specific anti-competitive restrictions result in other
countries around the world adopting this processor as a standard?

Also, this isn't the first open CPU project. It's based on the RISC-V
architecture and there are other RISC-V processors that you can buy today from
companies like [https://www.sifive.com/](https://www.sifive.com/).

~~~
StudentStuff
Brazil tried this tariff tactic, which resulted in some middling performance
knockoffs. China also has some tariffs (hence the tariff bypass AMD recently
did with the JV that rebranded 3 year old Zen for the Chinese market).

In terms of building up internal silicon design talent, tariffs have not been
effective in other large countries. Allwinner and Mediatek are taking off the
shelf designs from ARM, getting them fabbed, and writing basic BSPs for them.
The only magic here is they generally do not care to have large firmware
blobs, so their hardware isn't too terrible to mainline.

~~~
simula67
I would assume that the tariffs would be a temporary measure. At the moment,
there is no semiconductor industry in India to speak of and allowing foreign
businesses in would mean that Indian companies would not have a fighting
chance. If the industry takes off, I think the tariffs would be removed and
the Indian companies would be forced to compete or sell themselves.

~~~
benj111
Income tax was introduced 'temporarily' to the UK to fund the Napoleonic wars.
These things have a habit of becoming permanent. If India's semiconductor
industry does take off, do you think they'd want to risk sinking it (hows that
for a mixed metaphor!) by exposing it to the rapacious global market?

~~~
wrong_variable
I am not sure if you a Brit, you sure do sound like one.

You are ignoring 400 years of trade history here.

Britain was known for imposing unfair trade treaty on the rest of the world, (
so called 'unequal treaty' in the case of the China ).

In the case of India, Tata was forbidden from selling steel in india, causing
the indian steel industry to collapse.

Same for textile, boats, ... shall I go on ?

If you are so found of free trade, allow indians free visas to travel to the
UK ? let's watch most brits try to compete with your 1.4 billion, 2 dollar a
day indian labour ?

So there is more nuance then "muh can't sell ARM chips !"

~~~
benj111
Read my comment again, it's got nothing to do with 400 years of trade history,
it's about temporary measures having a habit of becoming permanent.

Where did you get the idea I was so fond of free trade? (disclosure: I am in
favour of free trade) I described international markets as rapacious. Plus
free trade is about trade. Freedom of movement is about people. You can be in
favour of free trade, and against freedom of movement, ask any Brexiteer.

BTW not all Indians are on $2 a day, and most that would come to the UK would
be on significantly more, and we have a minimum wage so they wouldn't be
competing on $2 a day anyway.

"Tata was forbidden from selling steel in india, causing the indian steel
industry to collapse.

Same for textile, boats "

Any decent write ups on this? Not something I'm really aware of.

~~~
wrong_variable
> "Plus free trade is about trade. Freedom of movement is about people. You
> can be in favour of free trade, and against freedom of movement"

Why ? Humans are a form of "good" so is capital and natural resources. You
cant leave 1 out of 4 - the EU single market was created with this in mind.
Some countries have excess capital, some have excess labour and some have
excess natural resources.

Its awfully convenient for you to leave out the ONE thing that a country like
India has a surplus in and leave in the thing India is deficit in.

> and we have a minimum wage so they wouldn't be competing on $2 a day anyway.

Says who ? it depends on enforceability, ask any Indian or any Brit who lived
through the Empire. Minimum wage is just a form of price control.

> Any decent write ups on this? Not something I'm really aware of.

Sure !

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inglorious_Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inglorious_Empire)

If you turn back the clock 400 years ago

\- The Indian rupee used to be similar to the swizz franc.

\- people around the world used to hold on to the rupee since it didn't suffer
from rampant inflation which even many european currencies did.

\- India was a major exporter of goods to SEAsia, Middle East, Europe and
Africa, and imported very little.

\- All of it changed when the Brits arrived.

Which comes back to my original point.

You turn forward the clock 100 years and its quite likely every Brit would be
singing a different tune, high tariff on Indian semiconductor, Indian medical
devices, .... . They already sing a very different tune compared to just 15
years ago with Brexit today. Where are your open markets now ?

Its awfully convenient to sit atop 400 years of plunder and loot and claim
fair treatment and 'free market'.

~~~
benj111
"Humans are a form of "good" so is capital and natural resources"

Exporting humans is generally a bad thing for the exporting country (brain
drain), exporting goods is generally a good thing. Goods can have tariffs
applied, how would that work for humans. Immigration is much more politicised
than free trade. 3 reasons why they aren't the same.

"Says who ? it depends on enforceability"

You could say that about anything. Murder is illegal, that needs to be
enforced.

"ask any Indian or any Brit who lived through the Empire" What has that got to
do with anything? Did they have minimum wage legislation during the days of
the empire? Because they didn't in Britain.

"Minimum wage is just a form of price control" And what's that got to do with
anything. Why are you getting all Randian, when you were complaining about me
being pro free market in your last comment?

"Its awfully convenient to sit atop 400 years of plunder and loot and claim
fair treatment and 'free market'"

So Italians should be apologising for what the Romans did, and Mongolians for
what Mongols did, and don't get me started on the Germans. I'm sure India has
it's fair share of dark chapters, its history, I wasn't born, my Parents
weren't born, and my Grandparents who were born when India was in the empire
are now dead, get over it.

PS I didn't 'claim free trade' or 'fair treatment', try reading my first post
again, and my explanation of what I said in my 2nd post.

~~~
wrong_variable
> Exporting humans is generally a bad thing for the exporting country (brain
> drain), exporting goods is generally a good thing. Goods can have tariffs
> applied, how would that work for humans. Immigration is much more
> politicized than free trade. 3 reasons why they aren't the same.

Goods are just one part of the overall economy, and an increasing small part
of it. A large part of the economy is services that involves humans.

Would you consider there to be a goods drain ? or a petroleum drain ?

Exporting humans is fine if you have a surplus of them, they are just another
input like capital, energy and iron. It's not the human that matters, it's the
system that is capable of producing them. Your solution of nations restricting
movement of its citizen is denying them their right of self determination.
Would you rather keep them chained to certain countries against their will ?

> Immigration is much more politicised than free trade.

Who said ? its not as charged in many Arab Countries who are much more
conservative. You could issue 10 year passport with limited voting rights.
There are many types of visas you could issue based on what your society finds
acceptable.

> So Italians should be apologizing for what the Romans did, and Mongolians
> for what Mongols did, and don't get me started on the Germans. I'm sure
> India has it's fair share of dark chapters

Who said anything about an apology ?

India is not some marginalized group in western society that is asking for
handout. It's a nuclear state with the second largest standing army in the
world.

It does not matter what I think or you think. Your original comment is
ignoring what India is.

Imagine for a second if every African country joined and formed a single
country, suddenly Africa would have a lot more leverage in trade. They can get
things horribly wrong but they can still come out ahead and bully countries
like Switzerland. Africa could introduce 100% external tariff while
Switzerland could be at 0% and Africa would still come out ahead. If
Switzerland went ahead and introduced 100% tariffs their economy would
collapse, because Africa in total has so much buying power.

~~~
benj111
"Goods are just one part of the overall economy, and an increasing small part
of it. A large part of the economy is services that involves humans"

We were talking about immigration not services, remember you mentioned visas?

"Would you consider there to be a goods drain ? or a petroleum drain"

No because I said they were different, if a 20 something emigrates, the
country they grew up in has spent years educating that child, keeping it
healthy, supporting the parents while they bring up the child, then just as
the payback should be starting the child leaves. Its analogous to spending
time and money drilling an oil well, and building a refinery, just to see the
petrol walk out the door with no money coming back to you.

"Who said ?" I did.

"India is not some marginalized group in western society that is asking for
handout"

I never said it was. You're the one whose got a Bee in their bonnet about
British colonialism.

"Your original comment is ignoring what India is"

I've reread my original comment and its clear enough what I said. I've also
clarified what I said, so why do you keep ignoring what I have actually said
in favour of what you imagine I said?

~~~
wrong_variable
> No because I said they were different, if a 20 something emigrates, the
> country they grew up in has spent years educating that child, keeping it
> healthy, supporting the parents while they bring up the child, then just as
> the payback should be starting the child leaves.

See this is where we fundamentally disagree.

What if the private sector / government is unable to provide them jobs ?

India adds 1 million new white collar graduates to its workforce every month !
do you think the government would really care if 1 million of them just left ?
there would be another 1 million added next month.

In fact the Indian government actively wants to send more young people to
every part of the world - latin america, middle east and europe. Since those
worker send back forex income.

Most of these young gradates end up working in call centers or their talent
get wasted doing other low productivity work. The Indian economy cannot absorb
so many graduates.

> I've reread my original comment and its clear enough what I said. I've also
> clarified what I said, so why do you keep ignoring what I have actually said
> in favor of what you imagine I said?

Your original comment states that India should open its market, you do not
have to be an Indian to understand how deeply offensive it might be to people
of the subcontinent ( China too ). It's like talking about 'states right' to
African americans.

Let me break down the history behind your argument.

\- During WW2 the Brits used 'free markets' to argue taking rice from India to
Britain during a famine where 3 million people died. They used British guards
to protect grannies from civilians dying outside. I have spoken to people who
were alive during that famine, how well do you think they will react if you
made your argument about opening India to 'rapacious global market'.

\- The brits heavily taxed Indian merchant ships, selling of Indian boats -
just to keep their seamen and dockworkers in london employed. While Indian
workers in Mumbai couldn't sell boats to Indian merchants in their own country
!

\- When the brits first came to India, India was the textile factory of the
world. The arguments the brits make is that their superior 'technology' and
'industrial revolution' caused the collapse of the Indian textile industry.
The reality was quite different that what British historian have been
pedaling. Firstly, innovation in textile has been happening for 2000 years,
there was no reason for India's textile industry to suddenly collapse just
when the brits started ruling over India. The height of British colonial
horror was cutting off the fingers of 300,000 textile workers.

So Britain's modern success has a lot to do with actions of its rule during
'Empire' ( which need I not remind you existed just one generation ago ).

> do you think they'd want to risk sinking it (hows that for a mixed
> metaphor!) by exposing it to the rapacious global market?

The real 'rape' here was India's inability to protect it's interest.

How long do you think Britain will take to recover if some foreign power cut
of the fingers of 300,000 bankers and coders in London ?

India needs tariffs since without it, a large number of its smaller
manufacturing operations would collapse.

The best example is agricultural produce, India has high tariffs on foreign
agri goods ( especially American ones) , because a country like America can
just dump its large agricultural surplus onto India. This would increase rural
poverty and increase rural unrest, (families earning 2 dollars / day would
earn 0 dollars / day) - something India has been working towards improving.

We already know US has been subsidizing its agri sector for more than 100+
years. 100 years ago India was at the height of its colonial exploitation.

We can also examine Mexico where NAFTA increased Mexican rural poverty,
increased inequality and made Mexico dependent on American food production (
something the americans would never tolerate happening to them ).

The price saving on buying American agri produce in India is also not
extremely different that buying locally produced food. So its anyway a small
subsidy from the well off to the peasant class.

Do you still think India should just abandon its 800 million farmers ? and
introduce them to 'rapacious global market' \- when their families didn't even
have one generation to build equity ?

Also, when India became independent the brits thought India would collapse
within 10 years, it's been 70 years and India's economy is the second largest
in GDP/PPP. It's sending satellite to space and doing mars mission, and also
has lifted the most people out of poverty after China.

So maybe they do not need your advice ? maybe they are doing something right ?
The Ministry of Finance in India are not run by idiots, maybe finally the
democratically elected government of India is doing what is best for it's
people ?

Tariffs, markets and money are just tools and should be slave to national
interests. In this particular case, india need to develop its own
semiconductor capabilities. If it means stealing IP, tariffs, industrial
espionage then so be it.

We can clap at the Brits making ARM chips, but the Indian government won't
allow Britain a perpetual monopoly to sell chips in India, especially if it
harms it's balance of payment.

Having said that, India normally plays by the rule much more than China due to
being a democratic government ( which I think was wrong, India should have
done what China did, but that is my personal opinion ) - only exception being
pharmaceutical and nuclear weapons in 1990s ( both were existential threats,
one to it's trade deficit and ther other to the state itself ).

The only reason why I spent so much energy on this topic is because it always
hits my nerve, its deeply offensive to ignore the legacy of colonization in
India when discussing free trade. It's like me trivializing north sea fish
quota to Brexiteers.

------
jrockway
Good luck to them. A completely open system is my dream. I am looking forward
to when the datasheets from $VENDOR are the same for every customer, rather
than edited whenever you call in and say "wait, didn't you say XX does YY?"
"Oh yeah, it can do that... let me send you a new totally accurate datasheet
that you won't spend 3 months debugging for us."

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
I too would like to see completely open hardware at some point. Really open,
none of this "it's totally, except for the closed GPU and binary blobs that
is..." crap.

~~~
pjc50
How much more are you prepared to pay for that, though?

~~~
snaky
Do we pay more for Linux than for Windows?

~~~
dikei
Well, Purism's Librem laptops are way more expensive than a similarly spec
Windows laptop.

------
Iv
I am surprised this is not a bigger news. This project is open hardware and
open source. It may be 180 nm tech, it is still nice to see open hardware
being released.

Now I could not find anywhere to buy this processor. Anyone knows about it?

~~~
p1necone
180 or 18?

~~~
dikei
They have 2 prototype: 1 using 22nm, and 1 using 180nm

[https://shakti.org.in/tapeouts.html](https://shakti.org.in/tapeouts.html)

------
peter_beck
Pity it is implemented in Bluespec Verilog for which the only viable toolchain
is still closed source software. Some unsupported since 2013 toy compilers
exist. Looks like the company behind the Bluespec pivoted to RISC-V
implementation.

Bluespec HDL has seen its limelight in 2012 and died due to it being closed
source with pricing similarly excessive as other HDL tools.

I remember being excited about the possibilities of a new, paradigm shifting
HDL.

Sadly, now it is a fizzled remainder of how to run the good tech into the
ground by keeping it closed.

~~~
0815test
> I remember being excited about the possibilities of a new, paradigm shifting
> HDL.

2012 was a long time ago. There are plenty of RISC-V core implementations
using Chisel and other "paradigm shifting" HDL tools.

~~~
snaky
Lava, Esterel, what else?

------
jabl
At some point they didn't have the C extension, making them unable to run
software compiled for "GC", which is the baseline targeted by most Linux
distros. Has this been fixed yet?

------
mepian
I browsed the SHAKTI repository briefly and found only the E and C cores, are
the rest of the cores not open source? Did I miss them?

~~~
quantummkv
They are still under development

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pdevr
Seems easy enough to set up the SDK:
[https://gitlab.com/shaktiproject/software/shakti-
sdk/blob/ma...](https://gitlab.com/shaktiproject/software/shakti-
sdk/blob/master/sdk_info.md)

