
"I haven’t been drunk in 3 years... and I’ve been partying way more than you." - dariusmonsef
http://hellobubs.com/post/17052863136/i-havent-been-drunk-in-3-years-and-ive-been
======
gst
Just speculation, but I have the impression that alcohol "problems" are a
larger problem in countries where the age required to legally buy alcohol is
rather high.

In my home country (Austria) I could buy alcohol at age 13 without any
problems. No one would ask for an ID. I think nowadays they are a little bit
stricter, but you are still legally allowed to buy alcohol once you turn 16.
Once you turn a little bit older alcohol isn't that interesting any more. Of
course, you'd still buy a beer (or more) if you're partying with friends, but
getting totally wasted is something teenagers would do.

I've moved to the US some time ago, and here I have the impression that even
people in their late-twenties get regularly drunk just "because they can" and
are "allowed to do so". Seems they just never learned how to use alcohol
responsibly while they were young, and at some age it's too late to learn it.

~~~
munchhausen
I agree that the easy availability of alcohol to teenagers in most European
countries seems to achieve the effect that you describe.

There is another angle to this though - is it better to engage in binge
drinking right in the middle of adolescence, when the body and mind is at a
rapid pace of development, or in your twenties, when you are physically better
equipped to deal with the effects of excessive alcohol consumption?

I am not a medical professional, but instinctively, the second option seems to
me to be the safer one.

~~~
beagle3
> your twenties, when you are physically better equipped to deal with the
> effects of excessive alcohol consumption?

Why would you believe that? I don't have any specific knowledge, but I also
see no reason to believe that you're better equipped (physiologically) at 25
to handle alcohol than you are at 15.

~~~
KaeseEs
You aren't still growing, so the binge drinking can't mess up your development
processes. You have more body mass, so a given amount of alcohol will cause
less of an increase in your BAC.

~~~
sounds
Another variable between European teenage drinking vs USA teenage drinking is
driving.

European teens do drive - but it's not fashionable.

USA teens _have_ to drive. The party is spread out (multiple locations in
suburbia) and the vehicle is the symbol of empowerment.

Obviously, mixing heavy or inexperienced drinking with driving is a recipe for
death.

~~~
jeffjose
Drunk walking is just as dangerous. Freakonomics Radio recently did a piece of
drunk walking and the numbers are surprisingly high.

~~~
Genmutant
In Germany it's illegal to walk outside if you're to drunk.

~~~
brazzy
This is of course bullshit. There is however, an interesting paragraph (StGB §
323a) that says you can go to jail for up to 5 years for being intoxicated if
you get drunk deliberately and then commit a crime but are deemed criminally
incapable.

------
blahedo
Why the false dichotomy? The author seems to imply that the alternatives are
1) never touching a drop of alcohol, or 2) getting blind drunk, being
incapable of controlling your actions, and blacking out. There are some good
points in there about how you shouldn't "need" alcohol, and arguments against
getting totally wasted, but he seems to be completely ignoring a huge, huge
middle ground.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
For a lot of people, it's not a false dichotomy; there is no middle ground.
And I'm not necessarily talking about alcoholism either (though that
qualifies); the insidious thing about alcohol is that it clouds your judgement
and makes abuse more likely. So you've had a few drinks and you're having fun,
hanging out with friends, feeling pretty good. And then everyone is ordering
another round, which is almost certainly a bad idea from a logical
perspective. But you're not thinking logically anymore, so you do too.

Think about it like this: how many people who drink have been drunk to the
point of throwing up (and subsequently hungover) more than once or twice? Most
people who drink would answer yes. And that makes zero sense; what logical
person would choose to experience that misery more than once? And yet many do
it almost every weekend. _Because alcohol screws up your brain._

~~~
sunahsuh
> the insidious thing about alcohol is that it clouds your judgement and makes
> abuse more likely. So you've had a few drinks and you're having fun, hanging
> out with friends, feeling pretty good. And then everyone is ordering another
> round, which is almost certainly a bad idea from a logical perspective. But
> you're not thinking logically anymore, so you do too.

...or you can hang out with friends who drink like responsible adults (and not
like overgrown frat kids.) Excessive drinking isn't a result of alcohol
consumption as much as the drinking culture in the US. We have this notion
that "when people drink they act like idiots with clouded judgement," which
becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. In other countries where attitudes toward
alcohol are different there's a marked difference in how people behave under
the influence. Now, while you can't do a ton about the way US culture as a
whole views alcohol consumption, you _can_ make it a point to socialize with
people who know how to have a good time while drinking in moderation (or
influence your friends to be more responsible in the way they drink.)

(More about how behavior under the influence is actually determined by our
social expectations and not a characteristic of alcohol itself:
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15265317> For instance, "This basic fact
has been proved time and again, not just in qualitative cross-cultural
research, but also in carefully controlled scientific experiments - double-
blind, placebos and all. To put it very simply, the experiments show that when
people think they are drinking alcohol, they behave according to their
cultural beliefs about the behavioural effects of alcohol.")

~~~
sarcasmatron
The cultural inability to drink moderately is not inherently American. Seems
you have a bit of a cultural bias, as you left out some notorious drinking
cultures: Germany, Japan, Australia, and the UK among them.

------
usaar333
Once a week there is a post on HN where I fail to understand how it got so up-
voted. This is that post. If not for the moderate condescension and
proselytism, I wouldn't think much of it; instead, I've become inspired to
comment.

OP probably does feel more "fun" in a given month than most of us. But the
article comes across as though the reader has never experienced such a life.

A lot of us have - in our teenage years. The life of skinny dipping, cross-
dressing, and acting like an idiot, all without the aid of alcohol, aptly
describes my own. Sure, those times were fun, perhaps among the most fun of my
life. But a lot of that fun came from both their novelty and ignorance of the
perhaps more enjoyable adult fun (alcohol, sex). Unfortunately, as life went
on, those activities grew mundane. (Besides, one seeks higher levels of
happiness as he ages, for instance the self-actualization that comes with
building a successful business). In a sense, I envy the author's enjoying such
activities at 30 as much as a teen would. Why he thinks he is able to would
make a great follow-up blog post. Most of society after all shifts to the
"adult fun".

On another note, the extremism of the post bothers me. The author equates
drinking alcohol with getting drunk. Which of course excessive consumption
causes. But I can certainly remember everything if I consume just a few shots,
but those said shots certainly make the world around me seem much more
entertaining.

------
corin_
First, I agree with people pointing out that alcohol doesn't have to be for
getting drunk. At the moment I have three near-empty boxes of beer (bottles),
six part-drunk bottles of whisky, and a few empty wine bottles. None of that
alcohol has been consumed by myself or anyone else to the point of being even
buzzed, yet alone drunk.

However, I do enjoy getting drunk. I've never drunk so much I threw up, or
fell over, or hit anyone, or... etc. But yes, when I'm out with friends or
colleagues we will happily enjoy a night with much alcohol flowing - enough to
be classed by the UK government as "booze drinking", at least.

I sometimes do or say something I feel embarassed about afterwards (most
recent example was a conversation about poetry with a London taxi driver at
~5am), but nothing I've been ashamed of.

Sure, I can have fun without alcohol. Sometimes I do - certainly I've never
had the thought that being drunk is a requirement for having fun. It just
provides a different type of fun. Different things make you laugh, you have
different conversations...

Obviously these things vary for different people, I've known people who I
don't want to be around when they're drunk - but also plenty of people just
like me.

edit: Just read the first paragraph of this comment and thought "I wrote that
myself and even I think that sounds like an alcoholic in denial". When I'm out
and drinking I'll drink a lot, when I'm at home I'll have a glass or two over
an evening. If I tried to get drunk off the whisky I have at home it would be
a _really_ expensive night.

~~~
dariusmonsef
I really didn't intend to say drinking or not drinking was right/wrong for
everybody... just trying to tell my story and what I've found worked well for
me.

I would love to know what the beer/whisky/wine brought to your time with your
friends, it it wasn't for getting drunk/buzzed? Honestly curious.

~~~
corin_
Regarding the first paragraph - it brings taste. Same reason we eat nice food
rather than the cheapest most nutritional food we can find. It's not alcohol
for the sake of alcohol, if I had a bottle of vodka at home I wouldn't bother
drinking it. Come to think of it, I think I actually _do_ have a bottle of
vodka somewhere in a draw in my bedroom... it's there because I haven't ever
wanted to get drunk at home since I was given it 9 months ago.

Whisky in particular I can't get enough of (in the hyperbolic way, not the "I
literally drink as much as I can" way!) - I forgot to include, when looking
around the room, that I have ~15 30ml bottle samples of various whiskies that
I haven't tried, which I regularly add to and try. After trying them I might
add it to my mental list of real bottles to buy in the future... often won't.

~~~
brazzy
Except to me the taste is absolutely vile. I don't drink any alcohol
whatsoever simply because it dislike the taste. Even a whiff is enough to turn
me off.

I don't have any objections to others drinking (within safe limits), but
really hate the notion (fortunately not widespread among my friends) that if
you're not drinking alcohol in a social setting you're somehow weird or even
spoiling everyone's fun.

~~~
mgkimsal
Similar views here. For me it's beer - I've just never, ever liked the taste
of beer. I think I've have 3 beers in my entire life, generally as the result
of awkwardly forced social situations where it was easier to have a few sips
than to make a bigger issue out of it than I wanted to.

Wine? A glass now or then with a particular meal, it's OK. Spirits? Some vodka
with OJ can give me a small buzz which, in some ways, can be relaxing for a
while. These are the '1-2x a year' sorts of drinks, but never really for the
taste of it.

But... beer. Of any sort. I've just _never_ understood the fascination with
it. It all tastes gross. It's probably saved me a small fortune compared to
some of my friends over the years, and I'm sure I'm (a bit) healthier because
of it, although I still eat junk food, so it's not all unicorns and rainbows
on that score :)

~~~
argv_empty
_I think I've have 3 beers in my entire life.... I've just never understood
the fascination with it. It all tastes gross_

That's a rather strong conclusion to draw from having tasted at most three
different beers (and I wonder if they were all that different... situations
where people typically feel pressured to drink aren't known for the high
quality of the beer on hand).

~~~
mgkimsal
I figured this would come up.

I've exaggerated a bit - I've had sips of more than 3 beers in my life. I've
had tastes of lagers in the UK, a couple German beers, and a few others over
time - a swig here and there, etc. 3 was basically full (or near full).
There's just nothing appealing at all with any of the types (closest I could
probably do would be a cider, which isn't really a beer though, right?).

This feels like a no true scotsman issue. "Well, if you'd had _good_ beer,
you'd feel differently!". :) I've had tastes of beer where people said "this
is the best stuff here". It's still ... ugh. Can't deal with the taste.

If my life depended on it, I probably could do it, but thankfully I've never
been in that situation :)

~~~
argv_empty
_I've exaggerated a bit - I've had sips of more than 3 beers in my life. I've
had tastes of lagers in the UK, a couple German beers, and a few others over
time - a swig here and there, etc. 3 was basically full (or near full).
There's just nothing appealing at all with any of the types (closest I could
probably do would be a cider, which isn't really a beer though, right?)._

If that's your experience, I'm fine listing you as "doesn't like beer."

------
drewblaisdell
While I'm glad that someone found that total sobriety is the best for them, I
found parts of this to be a bit distasteful. The times in my life when I
overdid it a bit (or a lot) with the drinking, the next day I found myself
thinking "wow, I acted like such an idiot last night", not "I could have acted
like the same idiot _without alcohol_ ".

If I'm at a bachelor party making gay jokes ("no homo"), the amount of alcohol
I've consumed is somewhat irrelevant.

~~~
dariusmonsef
What parts did you find distasteful? I was conscious when writing this to keep
an air of mtv beachhouse / jersey shore tone in it... That's the kind of
partying that has been glamorized and what a lot of people seek out on the
weekend.

I definitely don't suggest people act like idiots. I was simply trying to
relate to the people that are probably overdoing it the most.

~~~
carbocation
Well, drewblaisdell named one of the distasteful parts directly, but I can
quote it in isolation to make it more clear:

> at a bachelor party making gay jokes ("no homo")

~~~
dariusmonsef
"No homo" isn't really making fun of gay people... it's more making fun of
people who are homophobes. No offense intended to gay people. Some of the
people I love and respect most in this world are.

~~~
carbocation
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_homo>

To be clear, this isn't some White Knight thing, or a _gotcha_ trying to call
you out. I think you deserve the chance to get feedback that your words carry
an apparently unintended meaning.

~~~
dariusmonsef
Yup, feedback appreciated. I updated the image.

~~~
carbocation
Thanks for your response--I appreciate that you considered the feedback.
Cheers.

------
alexholehouse
I'm really surprised at the level of hostility in these comments. I read this
not as a preachy, "do this or waste your life" type post, but as a reflection
of one man's experience and the very positive outcome that this lifestyle
change had.

Maybe it's not relevant for some people - if you're _not_ the kind of person
who parties and gets drunk regularly (where regularity is obviously
subjective) then clearly his experience may well be irrelevant. On the other
hand, if you are, maybe you can try it - maybe it won't work for you and maybe
it will.

~~~
dariusmonsef
Thank you. That was how I meant it... simply suggesting a hack to my life that
worked out really well for me.

The hostile reaction was a bit of a surprise.

~~~
potatolicious
When I read the post I didn't get a very sanctimonious feeling out of it.

But quotes like these are not at all defusing the hostility:

> _"Like with most things it's easy to slide down a slippery slope. One glass
> of wine turns into two and then you've polished off the rest of the
> bottle."_

You've gone from "here's a great idea" to "if you're not doing it my way
you're on a slippery slope to hell", and I think that's the tone people are
objecting to.

~~~
dariusmonsef
I did generalize there, and in my head I was speaking to the original audience
of the post which is people who like to party... and to that audience I think
those words hold truer. There are obviously a lot of connoisseurs of wine &
drink here who took my words directed at their casual consumption.

And definitely wasn't trying to suggest that not drinking was a slippery slope
to hell.

~~~
potatolicious
It seems to me that with each caveat your target audience just keeps getting
smaller and smaller.

Take me for example - I might be your stereotypical partier. My default
Saturdays are at the club and I hit up bars often - but I'm very rarely drunk,
and in fact I'm stone sober nearly all of the time. The people I go with are
also the same. We get up to crazy shenanigans regardless of how much alcohol
is in (or not in) us.

The problem with your thinking here is that you assume everyone in the club is
like you, but the truth of the matter is that most of us leave our binge-
drinking-plastered-constantly days behind us fairly soon after college.

There is certainly an audience for your post - people with addictive
personalities who can't achieve that (very, very wide) middle ground on
alcohol consumption. And power to you and them. But you started out addressing
to all alcohol consumers. Then you took a step back and addressed this to just
"partiers". And now you must take one more step back and realize that you're
really addressing a subset of partiers at that.

------
ccollins
A couple of years ago, I spent Thanksgiving with a friend and the first thing
he warned was, "My family does not drink alcohol!". Interesting... I am
accustomed to intoxicated family parties, but on that specific Thanksgiving,
20 of us drank tea and ate turkey. It was pleasant.

After dinner, his father (a Doctor, along with 80% of the family) shared his
views about alcohol, predicting that in one generation alcohol will be
socially rejected the way tobacco is today because of how utterly destructive
alcohol is to the human body.

Remember! Just 50 years ago, the majority of the United States had no problem
with cigarettes.

I still drink, along with almost every adult I know, though I cannot help but
think that my friend's dad is right.

~~~
commandar
>After dinner, his father (a Doctor, along with 80% of the family) shared his
views about alcohol, predicting that in one generation alcohol will be
socially rejected the way tobacco is today because of how utterly destructive
alcohol is to the human body.

I think this has a likelihood approaching nil.

The consumption of alcohol is literally as old as human civilization; humans
first stumbled upon fermenting grains into ale around the time humans first
began farming.

There would have to be some sort of ground breaking discovery to attach the
same sort of health stigma to alcohol as tobacco. Right now, the research is
extremely mixed. The continual debate over possible health benefits of wine
would be one indicator. The fact that data indicates that complete abstainers
generally live shorter lives than those who drink would be another.[1]

>Remember! Just 50 years ago, the majority of the United States had no problem
with cigarettes.

Remember! Less than 100 years ago, the anti-alcohol movement in the United
States was strong enough to put Prohibition into place.

And what's interesting about that is that it illuminates another key place
where I think the idea that alcohol will suddenly become socially unacceptable
is completely off the mark. We've consumed alcohol for thousands of years, and
we've been fairly aware of its destructive effects for nearly as long because
_alcohol is more immediately destructive_ than tobacco.

One of the biggest drivers of the temperance movement in the late 19th and
early 20th century were women. In the time predating modern social safety nets
and women's liberation movements, a woman with a drunk for a husband would end
up with mouths to feed and very few options for making an income.

Yet prohibition was a disaster on a grand scale because society at large
rejected it. It would take a major sea change for things to be any different
today or in 50 years.

[1][http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2017200,00....](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2017200,00.html)

~~~
randomdata
Prohibition was rejected because it was forced upon people, but I could see
people start to "naturally" reject alcohol as they have tobacco. Drinking and
driving used to be the normal thing to do, now you are an evil, evil person
for even considering it. The straight up consumption of alcohol could easily
go the same way.

~~~
commandar
The difference is that we have clear evidence that tobacco is vastly harmful
to your health in the long term. Alcohol? Not so much.

Pretty much everyone agrees that it's bad to be an alcoholic. Most people get
annoyed with people that routinely get sloppy, out of control drunk. That's
_already_ socially unacceptable.

The general consumption of alcohol becoming an outright social faux pas,
though? I just don't see it happening any time in our lifetimes.

~~~
randomdata
A couple of cigarettes each year is not going to increase your chances of
health problems any more than a couple of drinks. Yet, we look down upon the
people who even try a cigarette just once.

And what about drinking and driving? One drink is legally okay in most
jurisdictions, and generally considered to still be safe, but it is often
taboo to even do that these days. Zero tolerance is a strong meme in that
area.

And those attitudes are not necessarily bad, but it takes what does cause harm
in excess and applies the same logic to moderation. I'm just not certain
alcohol is immune to those same social pressures.

I guess only time will tell...

------
Lewton
I did this for four months. (Started drinking again around new years because
it seemed highly appropriate)

I definitely got the "Wow, you've been sober for 4 months?!? But we partied so
hard last friday!" thing a lot. When people are drunk, they really don't
notice you not being drunk..

I agree with most of the article, and will probably go back on the wagon again
soon. But he left out some of the negative stuff... For example.. How grating
it gets when your friends get so drunk that they start to repeat themselves...
Over and over again.. And how hard it can be to get a point across to someone
who's drunk when you're sober. Making conversations, at times, highly
frustrating. When I'm drunk I'm just as stupid and the conversations run
smoothly!

~~~
gliese1337
Those are definite negatives to hanging out with drunk people. But, they don't
really go away just because you're drunk, too. People are still bad at
conversation, you just start to not notice. If your primary intent is just to
be sociable, that probably solves the problem, but if your intent is to
actually talk about something, it's just avoidance.

My preferred solution is to hang out with other people who are also not drunk,
but still intent on partying. My freshman year of college developed a saying
that I really should've started using in high school: "The Best Things in Life
Happen When You Could Be Mistaken for Drunk, But Aren't."

~~~
Lewton
Having good conversations doesn't necesarilly have anything to do with having
structured well thought out dialogue.

"Clicking" with someone, and having a great time incoherently talking about
dumb stuff while laughing, can be just as fulfilling (but in a different way)
than an intelligent enlightening discussion. Sure, you don't need alcohol to
talk about dumb stuff with someone you're level with. But I find that alcohol
severely expands the demographic of people I can get that kind of interaction
going with

------
watty
Good for him but not sure why he feels the need to push his zero-alcohol
policy on others. I'd guess more people drink for other reasons than to "get
drunk" but I guess this was his only reason.

~~~
aepstein
As his co-founder, I can assure you he doesn't push his "policy" on anyone
else. Far from it. It's more a philosophy of being present for every moment,
and living life to the fullest.

And pretty sure he was the one that bought a bottle of champagne for our team
to celebrate the end of our adventure through YC...just he didn't drink any.

~~~
matwood
_It's more a philosophy of being present for every moment, and living life to
the fullest._

Interesting that you equate living life to the fullest with not drinking.
Drinking a great beer with some friends or having a nice glass of cab with a
big steak is high on my list of things to do while living life to the fullest.

------
xiaoma
I'm not sure I follow the author's reasoning. It's also possible to have a
great time without consuming meat, without having sex or even without
including friends in the activity. So what?

~~~
pavel_lishin
I can start a fire by rubbing two sticks together, but I'll still bring
matches to a campout.

------
pwthornton
Most people who stop drinking do it for either health reasons (allergic, acid
reflux, etc.) or because they are an alcoholic. He doesn't fully explain why
he stopped drinking, and I'm wonder if it is because he had issues with
drinking.

I do want to add before I write more that if you don't enjoy drinking, don't
do it. Just because other people are doing it that doesn't mean you should. I
know some people who don't actually enjoy alcohol, but they still feel like
it's the thing to do socially. If you enjoy not drinking, rock it.

If you're out of your early 20s and you're still getting drunk regularly, you
probably have an alcohol problem. I'm 27 and haven't been drunk in years. I
drink a few times a week and usually only have a drink or two. I might have
three-ish tomorrow because of the big game.

It's fine if you don't want to drink, but there is something missing from his
story. Maybe he needed to stop drinking, but many of us can responsibly handle
and enjoy alcohol.

I love beer. I love trying different kinds of beer. I love the taste, and I
want to discover new kinds.

If you're drinking alcohol just to get drunk that's the issue. Many of us
drink beer, wine or mixed drinks because we actually enjoy the drink.

I know I have a few tasty microbrews lined up for tomorrow.

~~~
dariusmonsef
Never had issues. I thought I explained in the post that I did it as a
challenge to not need the "liquid courage" to do all the fun stuff when
partying with friends. I guess that is an issue, but would be a confidence
issue... not an alcohol one.

I have plenty of friends who drink socially, have been drunk every so often
and are in their 30s. I don't think any of them have drinking problems.

You mention a couple times that there is something missing from the story but
I wonder if you read the post? My story explains that I did it as a challenge.
To not need the social support of drinking, so I can experience a party at any
time... without alcohol.

My point was not to say alcohol is bad for everybody or that if you drink you
have a problem... again, I was speaking about people "partying" ie drinking 4+
drinks. If you drink in moderation or have a glass of wine here or there, then
the post wasn't addressing your lifestyle.

------
yason
In Finland we have this joke that "You can't have fun without alcohol but you
can have alcohol without fun—thus prefer the former, obviously."

~~~
Dove
"You can't have fun without alcohol"? Really? Is that some kind of a typo or
do you guys really say that?

~~~
Tharkun
You obviously haven't been to Finland, have you? Finnish males communicate by
grunts and don't express emotions when sober. When drunk, they communicate by
brawls and express emotions in streams of vomit.

Seriously, spend a night in Helsinki sometimes, it's an eye-opener.

------
davidw
Moderation seems like a good approach. I like a nice glass of wine with
dinner. I don't like being drunk, though.

~~~
dariusmonsef
Like with most things it's easy to slide down a slippery slope. One glass of
wine turns into two and then you've polished off the rest of the bottle. A
glass of wine is something I may add back in like 20-30 years, but honestly I
don't miss it that much. You're either alone and should just find a way to be
in that happy, light place without the wine... or it's a social thing and you
can find another delicious drink to socialize with. (hot cocoa, coconut-lime
soda, etc.)

And the buddhist in my fully appreciates a moderation / middle way approach...
But what is that glass of wine getting you? Is it strictly a taste thing? Is
it the antioxidants? My guess is there are comparable things that would be you
those same positive results of a glass of wine.

~~~
anatoli
Just because you can't regulate your alcohol consumption, doesn't mean that
the rest of us can't either.

Don't try and force your own choices on other people.

~~~
dariusmonsef
Wow. Do you really feel like I'm forcing my choice on you? I wrote a blog post
sharing my experience. 3 years I've enjoyed fully. Maybe you don't need to do
it the way I've done it and can make every moment of your life a party with or
without alcohol.

And I'm fully capable of regulating my drink. What I'm getting at is finding
other ways to find the mental benefits drinking provides, ie, being able to
have the confidence / happiness being buzzed/drunk provides... without needing
the alcohol.

~~~
georgieporgie
Well, you did say, "Like with most things it's easy to slide down a slippery
slope. One glass of wine turns into two and then you've polished off the rest
of the bottle," as if you automatically assume others can't control their
drinking.

As for the "confidence/happiness" that drinking brings, I wonder if you're not
projecting again. Personally, drinking doesn't make me any more confident. It
doesn't make me happy in and of itself, though it can help to reduce stress.
And there you're talking about "needing the alcohol," as if appreciating the
effects of something is "needing" it...

~~~
dariusmonsef
I wrote the post for people that use drinking as a way to enjoy an experience
more. Those are the kind of people who often slide down that slope. I
recognize that a lot of people don't have any issues with this slope. Sorry
for sliding you down it.

What do you get out of drinking?

~~~
georgieporgie
_I wrote the post for people that use drinking as a way to enjoy an experience
more. Those are the kind of people who often slide down that slope._

And I think that's completely a false assumption to make about people. I
myself might drink because I enjoy the element that the feeling of warmth and
relaxation adds to a conversation with friends. So, I may be using it to enjoy
an experience 'more' but that has nothing to do with sliding down a slope.
Friends and I may sometimes enjoy drinking as the social setting, the activity
for the night. The actual entertainment comes not from the drinking itself,
but from the social interaction and camaraderie. It's a shared experience, and
that's what human interaction is largely about.

It sounds like you're trying to address an audience of unaware alcoholics. Or
extremely dull people who rely _exclusively_ on drinking as sole
entertainment.

------
physcab
I get the point of the post. But come on, we're adults. Drinking is a choice.
For some people, if having a drink makes them more social and they enjoy it,
more power to them. If people choose to be sober and it works for them in
their social life, hey, good for them too.

Yes alcohol can be abused. But just because you choose to get shitfaced
doesn't mean you don't know how to have fun the "real" way. It also doesn't
mean you're an alcoholic. And just because you don't drink, doesn't mean
you're the outcast.

Your post would have been a lot more meaningful if you neglected the part
about the alcohol altogether. I think what's inspiring is that you chose to go
down a different path and it led to amazing things in your life. Drinking is
irrelevant and takes away from the good message you try to convey.

~~~
peteretep
I quit drinking Jan 1st, and commented about that on Facebook. A friend
messaged me and told me she'd done just the same, but was explicitly not
telling people to avoid judgemental comments. Judgemental comments? lolwhut?

But any time recently people have seen I don't drink, everyone has an opinion.
And 90% of those opinions are long-winded justifications on why it's ok the
other person drinks.

Drinking in moderation won't kill you. Very occasionally people suggest that
there are even medicinal purposes. But: life gets better without alcohol. I
went out for my birthday party last night, and we had an awesome night of
drunk karaoke, only, I wasn't drinking. I had a load of fun, sang like an
idiot in to the microphone with my friends, and got home safe, having spent
almost no cash.

Giving up drinking for me was like giving up smoking before it: I really
realized I could just no longer justify doing it. Ever. It's a literal poison,
and the idea that you can't bond, have fun, and have crazy nights without it
is all bullshit.

~~~
oe
I don't know if it's a Finnish tradition only, but a lot of people (around 14%
of population in 2010) stop drinking for the month of January. For some it's a
way of giving a break for their livers, and some want to see if they are still
able to completely stop drinking.

The good thing is having one month per year where it's almost socially
acceptable to not drink any alcohol. Of course everyone could just drink
moderately all year, but that doesn't seem to happen.

------
grogs
I'm British, I've been crazy drunk 3 times. I don't do that often, I don't
really even go clubbing anymore (last time was 6 months ago - in Hungary,
gotta go back 10 months for UK clubbing).

I think the drinking culture in the UK is really bad. The French will happily
drink a bottle of wine... but with a meal. I definitely drink most people get
bored of it pretty quickly. I think it's insane that people get "pissed"
weekly. Hangovers are not fun.

However, I have a (mini) fridge just for botted lager, which I dip into when
watching football. I have a collection of 8-16year single malt whiskys which I
slowly sip of occasionally. I often buy a nice bottle of ale, which goes well
with a steak.

No clue why people would continue getting very drunk behond the age of 25.
(I'm 21 and mostly bored of it)

------
zobzu
Obviously this story has nothing to do with alcohol. It's just some kind of
deflection.

It's about he had a cancer in the eye, realized life's short, cancer got fixed
and he lived his life the way he actually wanted but never dared to.

------
kennethologist
This article was very helpful and it encourged me. I'm in my mid twenties and
I've never drank gotten drunk (outside of sampling) and always had peers
pressuring me to drink. But this article reaffirmed my reasons for not
drinking. Conclusion; I don't see how drinking would enhance my life than when
I am sober. Thank Bubs!

------
geuis
I like to drink. I love the taste of a good bitter beer. I love trying
different kinds of scotch and wiskey. I've had some of the best times just
drinking with friends. Everything doesn't have to be a soul searching
adventure.

I don't get wild and belligerent when I drink. So there's definitely no need
to be that way sober.

------
pinaceae
...but being sober is not the same as being on drugs. same fun? no. better
fun? define better. different fun.

drugs are a big influence of human history, art pretty much was build on it.
you can tell by trends in art which kinds of drugs were fashionable.

it is interesting to "hack" your body with drugs. you change, like vacation
from reality.

sobriety is overrated.

~~~
drumdance
It's overrated if it comes easy to you. For some of us it's an achievement.

------
mdmarocks
I agree completely despite being a frequent recreational user of drugs
including alcohol. I was once an extremely shy person who on following friends
to social gatherings would ignore girls hitting on me and otherwise avoid
interaction. I was very lonely so I sought out drugs as a way to subdue my
inhibitions. Misguided though that may have been, ecstasy in particular has
helped me gain confidence in social situations (due partly to a placebo effect
:). I realized that I should and would be able to be comfortable and have fun
while sober if I only tried.

Drugs are fun in moderation (let's not throw the babies out with the
bathwater) but only to the extent that they cause fun rather than detracting
from it. In my experience for a given drug such a point of inflection always
exists.

Drinking for the taste also makes sense.

------
tluyben2
While of course his 'main idea' is solid; you don't need drugs (alcohol being
a particularly addictive and unhealthy one) to have a good time, but saying
that he never had “Wow, I’m so glad I did that thing I did last night. It’s
significantly improved my life.“ => that's crap, at least, I am not him, but I
have had that, so did all my friends. Of course you don't wake up and think
'it's significantly improved my life' (who thinks that??), but certainly 'i am
so glad i did that last night'.

When forced to think about that, then yes, it significantly improved my life;
I met great friends and girlfriends (which I wouldn't have met in such short
period otherwise and at the time that mattered to me), had conversations with
friends which were far more honest than we would've had without drink.

One case for instance I was at a very boring party, everyone was ready to go
home at 10pm. I was together with my gf and we decided to drink some cocktails
and go home too. After feeling a nice buzz, we started dancing _alone_ on the
big dance floor with almost no-one around (and surely no-one dancing). Another
couple joined in a bit later, we started talking and that guy is now my best
friend. This is over a decade ago. This would not have happened if both
couples didn't drink; we would've gone home. I know there are people who can
'do this' without alcohol and now my wife and me can too, but back then it was
just 'boring party, waste of time, bye' when sober. And I wouldn't like to
have missed that for the world; there is almost no chance I would've met him
otherwise (I know that in hindsight).

------
anonhacker
Indeed this has crossed my mind many times... I have blacked out far too often
and thought to myself, whats the point if i don't remember anything the next
day?

That being said, it's easy to claim that you can be just as
fun,charismatic,etc without alcohol, but I have tried before and its really
hard. Can you share how you transitioned to being drunk sober?

~~~
dariusmonsef
I tried to outline some of those things in the post... ie, getting your
friends on board so they don't make the non-drinking an awkward issue.
Drinking something else as a social crutch. Give yourself permission to act a
bit silly, just go along with the other people around you.

I'm not saying it's an easy thing. But if you can get to the point where you
can be just as fun,happy, charismatic sober... You have that ability anytime
you want it.

------
moultano
Thanks for writing this. I've felt the same way for pretty much my whole life,
and I'm glad there are other people who feel the same way. It's a much better
investment in yourself to be comfortable being your best, most uninhibited
self, without sacrificing mental clarity.

That said, I did hear one argument from a friend once that made me understand
drinking a little more. When you drink heavily with a friend, you're in effect
saying that you trust that person enough to see you without full control of
yourself. It's a more intimate interaction as a result. I half buy that,
though I still avoid alcohol.

The most important thing to remember about all this is that there really isn't
any judgement involved. When I'm hanging out with people, I want them to be
fun and uninhibited. If that requires alcohol, that's fine. It's a personal
choice to increase my _own_ happiness, not a judgement of anyone else.

~~~
dariusmonsef
Agreed, especially on the judgement point. I really didn't intend to, but I
think I offended a few people here because it sounded like I was passing
judgement on people that do drink.

I just bought my wife a 6-pack of beer from the store yesterday and I think
she's the most amazing person on this planet.

------
baby
Looks like he's bragging more than anything else, and the sad part in it, I
really don't think he partied the way I did.

------
gmantastic
Great post. I stopped drinking for good 2 years ago, after 20 odd years of
being drunk pretty much every night. For me, the enjoyment was gone, and only
the habit remained, along with a pile of worries about if/when my health would
fail. After a rough few days, I've not looked back, and have no plans to drink
again (I could never moderate). I too have lost weight, feel great, and still
enjoy parties. My wife is somewhat dismayed that the stupid behaviour she put
down to the drink is actually the real me and my warped mind! If you like
drinking and can drink in moderation, then keep going, but if you need to
stop, then go for it. Just stop fully, and stay stopped. NB: I found Allen
Carr's "Easy Way to Control Alcohol" book useful - he uses some great imagery
I found helpful in the early days after stopping.

------
Mindphreaker
I hardly post comments here but I have to thank you bub! I quit drinking for 3
years and unfortunately started it a year ago again.

I quit drinking because of my aunt who died because of liver cirrhosis (result
of alcohol addiction), started it again because the last year wasn't an easy
one for me. :/

I was very proud that I could stop drinking and still having fun. I had the
exact same moment you mentioned, where some random girl told me that I was
sooo drunk yesterday and I just replied.. nope, I was sober. :D

During my time drinking I lost extremely much of my former productivity. I
have to admit I don't regret every drunk evening, there were some really good
too! But I definitely lost mental strength during my drinking time.

I had to lough at the point where you wrote about the lost money and in my
case gained weight. That's all true too.

I'll quit drinking again, one more time. :D

------
kurrent
"If you’re drunk, you’re not fully there. You don’t remember everything. "

that's part of the whole reason to get drunk for me

~~~
Aloisius
Exactly. Alcohol is for helping me forget the stupid things I'm going to do.
Why anyone would want to remember them in vivid detail is beyond me.

------
Tharkun
To each their own. I never drank alcohol, not until long after my student days
had come and gone. Some of my best friends never drink, either. It doesn't
stop you from having fun, nor does the inverse guarantee you'll have fun. But
in the end, it's your own choice, and it's always interesting to see different
points of view being discussed on HN.

Haters gonna hate.

------
kisstheblade
I've seen these kind of people, and the fact is that they are not "the fun of
the party" though they themselves of course can enjoy themselves (and the
drunk people don't mind). It's the "drunken" people providing all the fun and
atmosphere (no, you don't have to be wasted, just a little drunk so that you
don't have so many inhibitions).

------
noamsml
I know a lot of people who go out to bars, drink, and spend the entire night
shouting about how drunk they are and how drunk they were all those other
times they went drinking. I don't get it. I've never been a heavy partier, but
my craziest, weirdest, most memory-making times have all been stone sober.

------
jayferd
++

Especially with alcohol, there's a huge difference between what's promised and
what's delivered. It seems to promise fun and relaxation, but really it just
makes you a little wobbly and a little sick.

A friend of mine would always joke that "we're in for a night of beer and
yelling!". It kind of put things in perspective.

~~~
noamsml
Interesting take on fun and relaxation: Try going to a party and drinking non-
alcoholic beer. It tastes kind of meh, but overall delivers the same
experience. One surprising result of that is that drinking non-alcoholic beer
(which has the same alcohol content as some brands of orange juice) tends to
loosen you up a fair bit, because it has all the trappings and promises of an
alcoholic beer. Turns out the actual alcohol is incidental to those effects.

------
johnnyjustice
I love the idea, but I am left not knowing what to do next. It ends with a
bunch of motivational stuff, give me direct challenges! some concrete action
steps and you have yourself a full blogpost article thing thats awesome and
can really change the status quo

~~~
dariusmonsef
I would love to go deeper on this. I don't have the time right now to write
what would be a short book length piece, but appreciate the motivation to do
it.

------
mattie0285
Well its just actually a matter of perspective sometimes. If you think you
could still keep up there is no problem so long as you still has control over
yourself. Remember that accidents happen when we are not aware of it. Be a
responsible drinker.

------
shaunxcode
Sometimes I am surprised to find I am the only straight edge hacker I know.
Most of the time though I just don't care. So while I totally concur with the
article I fail to see how this parses as hacker news?

------
known
Take one 250 mg Disulfiram pill and prevent <http://news.bbc.co.uk/dna/place-
lancashire/plain/A29443179>

------
anonymous
> but top 5 worst days of my life were all recovering from a lot of drinking.

Considering that this guy had cancer, his hangovers must have been of truly
epic proportions.

------
INTPenis
Insecure people drink because they can't deal with their real selves. If
you're secure with who you are, you won't need to alter your mind to do
something.

~~~
salemh
What is caffeine then?

------
antidaily
Wow this guy's life sounds AMAZING. All kidding aside, I'm for anything that
makes you happy and doesn't harm others.

------
badclient
This is funny because I've never touched alcohol but am often accused of being
drunk.

~~~
dariusmonsef
you're just naturally fun, and maybe a little crazy. :)

------
VMG
I recommend the use of cannabis

~~~
thomasdavis
aha I came here for this.

Damn fear campaigns generating 'non-conforming' conformist.

------
peteretep
Been doing this since January 1st. It's awesome. Try it.

------
georgieporgie
The author comes across as projecting, having social issues, and obsessing on
"achieving" juvenile behavior (not to say I don't engage in juvenile behavior,
but it comes naturally). Flagged.

~~~
dariusmonsef
I probably was projecting a bit... as I was telling my story. The experiences,
the reasons to change, etc. Were all personal reasons. And yes the focus on
juvenile behavior was because I was writing to the people who party this way.
What I didn't expect was so many casual drinkers to think I was speaking to
them to to take offense.

~~~
ryan-allen
You're going to hit nerves no matter what you say. You're discussing the use
of a widely legal and popular narcotic.

I think the only mistake you made was submitting this piece to Hacker News in
the first place.

To write about your personal experiences is fine, to submit them to a resource
of useful information is a whole other matter.

~~~
dariusmonsef
I was trying to discuss a hack I made to my life. Something I've done to
improve my own. And I'm a YC Founder... Seemed like a pretty good place to
post this. imho

