
HP to Contribute webOS to Open Source - mikecane
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2011/111209xa.html?mtxs=rss-corp-news
======
megaduck
This is fantastic news. WebOS has always been full of great ideas, but held
back by shaky underpinnings. It's like the inverse of most open-source
projects. Great UI, not-so-hot implementation.

There's a lot of folks (myself included) that would have been happy to jump in
and assist, but couldn't due to the closed-source nature of the platform.

The real prize, however, is Enyo. It's a great Javascript framework, and works
in virtually any webkit-based browser. The biggest problem was the licensing
terms: You could only use it on WebOS phones. Now that barrier's being
removed.

I'm really looking forward to this. Can't wait to dive into the code. :)

~~~
untog
Seconding the excitement about Enyo. This could/should be absolutely huge.
Speaks to the level of disorganisation in HP that the blog they link to has no
mention of the open sourcing, though. Woops.

~~~
Stratoscope
There's a blog post on it now. I don't know how much disorganization that
speaks to: Maybe the PR person jumped the gun by a few minutes, maybe the
blogger was a few minutes late, or maybe they posted simultaneously and then
discovered that their blogging platform has a longer cache than the PR wire.
:-)

I will check out Enyo, thanks (and megaduck too) for the tip!

------
sjs
"under an open source license" is vague. I hope more details emerge soon. If
it's a liberal license this could be very interesting.

Without a group leading development the project may languish so ideally a
competent group, with a vision, decides to run with webOS.

~~~
freehunter
They did mention they wanted to control the development of the system to avoid
fragmentation, so the license may be more restrictive than Android. Full open-
source but cannot sell devices with wildly custom builds without HP's approval
seems to be okay with me. As long as they leave a clause for being able to
legally share your custom homebrew ROMs, they can put as many restrictions on
hardware manufacturers as they like.

~~~
rbanffy
> the license may be more restrictive than Android.

Not necessarily. The WebOS name is trademarked and they can just prohibit its
use unless the software adheres to a certain quality goal.

~~~
av500
Yes, that was true for Meego as well and see where it got them...

------
mchanson
I'm really interested to see if this means WebOS would compete with Android in
a meaningful way. Google puts a lot of work into outreach/support/evangelism
to handset makers and I think also carriers. Android's big because of being
open, but also because of all of the efforts Google is making. HP is not
really known for being reliable lately in their strategic direction... My
prediction (for all that is worth) is that this doesn't change the landscape
very much.

Totally interesting. Can't wait to see what happens.

~~~
untog
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we end up with people making a
compatibility layer between the two somehow. Without a major backer, WebOS
won't ever be a big deal. But if you could run Android apps on the WebOS UI...

~~~
angli
That's possible, but I think that the more likely scenario is the opposite -
WebOS apps on Android. With a competent Webkit environment on the phone and
Enyo open sourced, it seems possible, simple even.

~~~
rboyce
Don't worry: Android's build of Webkit still has plenty of work before it's
good enough to be considered competent. Apple's Mobile Webkit, on the other
hand...

------
gravitronic
I own a Touchpad ($150 sale) and have dabbled in Android development. What I
find amazing about WebOS is that the native development platform (not the Enyo
javascript/html side) is SDL&OpenGL. This makes porting/developing on any
desktop OS very simple and the learning friction very low.

~~~
malkia
Also I've heard people install native gcc. On my end I've got luajit running
there (cross-compiled on my OSX).

~~~
gravitronic
oh that is awesome! I want to set it up with pygame and a keyboard as a quick
"would this make a fun tablet game" prototyper.

~~~
malkia
Never used pygame, but googled and found something -
<http://thp.io/2011/webos/>

------
forgotAgain
Sorry folks but this is just HP's way of trying to make a dignified end to an
embarrassing episode. The world is littered with operating systems. Without a
committed hardware manufacturer there is no economic model that works for
webOS developers.

~~~
kermitthehermit
I would say the former CEO of HP was some kind of trojan horse meant to kill
the company.

I am pretty glad that the new CEO, along with all those involved, decided to
do this. People love the platform, devs like, other companies couldn't wait to
get their hands on it and a lot of users have said the platform has very nice
UI.

So, I'm not ready to say it's just something to "save face". It's their chance
to open source something, build a healthy ecosystem and provide a 100% open
source alternative for Android.

------
jpxxx
Honest question: to what end is this happening? They receive no money from a
sale of the project, they still have to commit engineering resources, they
lose some level of control over its development and its future,and how is it
going to be placed into someone else's aboveboard commercial mobile product if
there aren't any guarantees against patent attacks?

What is the upside?

~~~
tewolde
This is a platform play. Think of it like a casino, HP is the house. It sits
in the middle, makes the rules and pockets the mindshare, influence...and
_maybe_ some money.

Samsung, HTC have been desperate for an alternative to android since the
Motorola purchase by Google. If HP does this right, I have little doubt we
will see future webOS devices.

~~~
TomOfTTB
If these companies are "desperate for an alternative" why didn't they embrace
webOS before? Or why aren't they pushing Windows Mobile?

Or, if they want open, why not just fork Android like Amazon and Barnes and
Noble? Are you seriously suggesting Barnes and Noble has more technical
resources than HTC and Samsung?

~~~
masklinn
> why didn't they embrace webOS before?

Because they could not? The only way they could was to buy it from HP, and
that costs money.

> Or why aren't they pushing Windows Mobile?

HTC has WP handsets out.

> Or, if they want open, why not just fork Android like Amazon and Barnes and
> Noble? Are you seriously suggesting Barnes and Noble has more technical
> resources than HTC and Samsung?

B&N customizes Android by cutting down on features to pare it down to a
tablet, the requirements are... lower.

~~~
TomOfTTB
> Because they could not? The only way they could was to buy it from HP, and
> that costs money.

The money saved on software licensing isn't enough to make the difference if
these companies were "desperate" for an alternative. As you pointed out HTC is
making Windows Mobile handsets right now and it costs money.

(Though again my point on HTC was they'd be pushing WP if they were desperate
to get away from Android and they aren't)

> B&N customizes Android by cutting down on features to pare it down to a
> tablet, the requirements are... lower.

What features has B&N paired down in the Nook? They've restricted the use of
some features but they haven't removed anything that I know of. Meaning what
they have done is add a shell on top of Android just as any other manufacturer
could do.

Even if you buy the argument that it would be harder for Samsung and HTC to
adopt webOS feature into a shell you can't argue that it would be harder than
switching to an entirely new OS and putting the marketing budget into it to
attract development.

If that were easy HP would have done it.

~~~
tewolde
It's all about hedging your bets. Until today, android was the only open
source platform these companies could use. This gave Google an advantage to
define the rules. For example, they could actually start closing parts of the
source or giving Motorola preferential treatment.

Google had the sole power to define what an "open" platform was and the rules
in using it. Developers, telcos and HW companies now have a second option.

HP may not make a dime from this move, but if the move is cheap and it can
cost the competition more to respond, then it is a move is well played.

Lastly, HP is a hardware/software/services company so this move will give it
some leverage when dealing with large players in those areas.

------
thehodge
Was half expecting them to donate it to the apache foundation.. seems to be
the in thing to do right now

~~~
peterarmstrong
The Apache foundation is turning out to be where large companies send their
projects that they acquired through acquisition and never really loved or
understood to die. It's kind of the old folks home of the software industry.

~~~
bad_user
Only if Oracle donated Java or MySQL to Apache, maybe with a change of license
like they did for OpenOffice - now that would be something.

~~~
koko775
And would never happen. Oracle has a huge vested interest in controlling
arguably the most successful universal language and vm platform in the world.

As fantastic as it would be for it to happen, imagining a multibillion dollar
company managed like Oracle giving away that much value for free isn't just
wishful thinking, it's delusional.

~~~
icefox
I think he was making a joke about how if Java was donated then we all would
know that Java really is dying.

------
zwieback
As an HP employee I have something to smile about today.

~~~
hkmurakami
As a former HP intern and someone who laments the company's demise, I too have
something to smile about today.

~~~
laughingfather
As father of 2 idiots, i will laugh for a week.

~~~
freehunter
Novelty accounts on Hacker News?

------
robterrell
HTC in particular seems to be casting about for a way to stand out in a sea of
Android handsets. I wonder if they'll be tempted? But getting webOS up to the
level of ICS or iOS 5.0 is going to be a _ton_ of work.

~~~
nextparadigms
I'd rather see them push WebOS than WP7, which hasn't proven very successful
for them anyway.

------
laconian
How cool is this? I bet Touchpad buyers feel even better about that firesale
buy. If XBMC is any indication, nothing can reanimate old hardware like
dedicated OSS nerds.

------
yoda_sl
Interesting solution to their problem with webOS. I am not convinced that open
sourcing it without any HP hardware to officially run it or any announcement
of partners that will produce compatible hardware will allow webOS to take
off. At least this is a potential credible alternative to Android open source
model... if some HW folks decide to go with it.

[copied from my previous comment on the 'precentral' news]

~~~
dlikhten
Meh... No reason android devices can't be ported to webos.

~~~
MatthewPhillips
1 huge reason: proprietary drivers.

~~~
rbanffy
If the driver links to the Linux kernel underneath, porting shouldn't pose a
big problem.

Oh... Isn't distributing proprietary drivers linked to the Linux kernel a
violation of the GPL?

~~~
jdthomas
Problem isn't so much kernel level drivers, but user space. Or undocumented
proprietary APIs to firmware. I suspect it is not a problem for most
components. Most phones are just recombinations of the same components. The
problem areas would be the radios and possibly the graphics.

Check the tear downs of the HTC Sensation and the HP TouchPad .. virtually the
same device inside. ;)

------
hswolff
This is a masterful move after the previous mis-steps. Bravo HP!

If only I could be a fly on the wall for those discussions of what to do with
webOS...

------
mtigas
Not sure what HP's decision-making process was here, but sure looks like the
team wasn't ready (or may not have even known if this was in play ahead of
time). See comment by Dave Balmer (Senior Software Engineer, webOS Developer
Relations):

[https://github.com/hpwebos/webos/issues/1#issuecomment-30868...](https://github.com/hpwebos/webos/issues/1#issuecomment-3086892)

> Meg's announcement was news to us in the webOS team as well. The HP
> executive team has been weighing a lot of options of late, but thanks for
> assuming all us in the trenches are that deeply "in the know", makes me feel
> warm and/or fuzzy. :)

------
Vaanir
It really is going to be interesting to see how far webOS goes with this
approach. I'm glad they did this, webOS is a great OS and is really nice to
use on tablets.

------
suprgeek
The race is now officially on to see who can become the "CynogenMod" for webOS
:). I cannot wait for a Port of this on some of my Currently Android Only
Devices (Nexus One and ASUS Xformer).

I will now spend the rest of the day dreaming about dual booting my Tablet
into WebOS and Android and all the funky apps that can come with that prospect
:)

------
siglesias
Dumb question, but what's in it for HP?

~~~
gms
PR. They haven't got a clue about what do with webOS, so instead of announcing
its shutdown, they 'donate' it to open source.

~~~
siglesias
And this is worth the tens of millions, if not hundreds, that they would have
received for selling it?

~~~
w33ble
Selling it to who, exactly?

~~~
siglesias
Word on the street was Facebook (<http://zd.net/psW2NP>) and Amazon
(<http://bit.ly/uSFTVz>) were interested.

~~~
smacktoward
Not interested enough, apparently!

------
jlarocco
Do they link to the project or the code anywhere?

All I could find was <http://opensource.palm.com/packages.html> and it's just
the GPLed code they were legally required to release anyway.

Anybody know if there's a project page or anything?

~~~
freehunter
They're still working on the license for the code, so it might take a few
weeks to get it all out.

------
mikecane
It's probably very selfish of me, but I hope for others to also want webOS on
one of Samsung's tablets and that a method will be devised to replace Android
on a 7 Plus, 7.7, or 8.9 (or all three!). I really like Samsung's hardware and
webOS would be killer on it.

------
jsz0
I wonder if we'll reach the point where some SmartPhone/tablet makers start
flirting with officially supporting multiple operating systems on the same
device either to end users or carriers. I can think of a couple reasons why
the carriers might like this approach. I'm sure enterprise IT departments
would prefer to have more control to lock down and customize devices. Even if
they don't want to switch platforms at the moment it's not very practical to
root and install custom ROMs on everyone's device.

------
yalogin
Isn't it a little too late now? WebOS is way behind in terms of functionality
compared to Android and so even someone picks it up they need to spend
considerable time and resources to bring it up to par to compete with it. It
has to be some company that does not mind waiting and spending the resources.
I don't see any one in that position right now. Unless this is purely a move
to generate excitement in the developer community so that HP can at least make
a meaningful effort to push it.

~~~
joelhaasnoot
Some of the contact stuff they did in WebOS with Synergy is actually very much
ahead of it's time. Android had now caught up to it a bit with ICS and their
"People" card. There's also a fairly large "homebrew" community for WebOS with
lots of hacks, etc.

~~~
freehunter
It _was_ ahead of its time. Windows Phone picked up where WebOS left off on
that measure, and did it quite well. They also grabbed the cards feature and
put it to use (though without real-time multitasking).

All the features that should have made WebOS the best-selling platform ever
have now been incorporated into the competing products. The fact that Windows
Phone is basically WebOS with the homebrew taken out but is still lagging far
behind in sales goes a long way towards showing that features matter much less
than advertising and hype.

------
runjake
I suspect that the Enyo framework will be the prime survivor out of this
outcome, as it could easily be ported to Android, and perhaps iOS (somewhat).

------
firefoxman1
This made my day!

------
agentgt
Anybody have a guide on how one might make custom phone using webos? I asked
just a while ago on SO: [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8450744/resources-
on-how-...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8450744/resources-on-how-build-
your-own-mobile-phone)

(I just know my karma is going to get trashed for cross posting)

~~~
runjake
Your best bet would be to find an existing (probably Qualcomm MSM) ARM-based
Android phone with supported hardware drivers and an unlocked bootloader that
you really like, and port WebOS to that. Porting WebOS to such devices has
been accomplished to small extents in the past by hackers on xda-
developers.com.

Here's one such example reported on today:
[http://www.theverge.com/2011/12/9/2624350/webos-hacked-
toget...](http://www.theverge.com/2011/12/9/2624350/webos-hacked-together-for-
htcs-evo-3d-a-proof-of-concept-for-the-time)

As you likely don't have the fab facilities, any phone you'd build from off
the shelf parts would resemble the lunchbox-sized cell phones of the 80s.

I built one several years back with a Gumstix board and a GSM module from (I
believe) Sparkfun.com. Though it only did SMS and Data, no voice (wasn't
interested).

------
barredo
I'm buying my 150€ dev touchpad right now. I was hoping for something like
this before committing to the platform.

~~~
zer0her0
I thought they sold out of the touchpads?

------
robterrell
What about the patents? Scoble said they had patents on webOS. The press
release mentions nothing about it.

------
rbanffy
OK... Now, who'll make WebOS devices?

~~~
mark-r
The devices exist already, except they're all running Android. It shouldn't
take more than a few tweaks to get WebOS running instead. Any HW manufacturer
could try it to test the waters, and if they're first it would be good PR.

~~~
rbanffy
And support two different software stacks?

I don't think many will.

~~~
masklinn
Uh... they already do. HTC has Android and W7P devices. And they released WiMo
phones as late as 2010. They even released two BrewMP phones early this year.

Samsung also maintains both an Android stack and their in-house bada. Nokia
has WP7 and Symbian (which is itself split into three branches/lines: ^1, ^2
and ^3)

~~~
rbanffy
Microsoft is probably paying for that, even if it's only by reducing their
Android extortion fees.

------
ramn
Awesome news and well done HP. Atleast there will be someone to take it and
build it as an alternative to the android. I believe all manufactures should
give an option to install WebOs on their devices if the consumer chooses to.

------
jdavid
1st WebOS is better than Chrome OS. 2ndly, WebOS is not just for phone's and
tablets. Think TV, Netbooks, Printers, etc....

WebOS is about the cloud, not the devices. It's about sharing data as a user
between many cheap devices.

------
blntechie
Welcome the decision. But a honest question - has there been any predecessors
for a software succeeding after being open sourced from closed? I can think of
Firefox but nothing else.

~~~
erydo
Blender comes to mind. It was opensourced (ransomware) around 2001 IIRC, and
it's still a quite healthy project. I'm sure there are other good examples.
You might also count open source games relying on id's engines.

------
ricardobeat
Will WebOS be able to step aside from the patent wars?

If Microsoft and others come after licensing deals like they did for Android
that could put nails back in WebOS's coffin.

------
ricardobeat
Would be great if all the chinese tablets stopped using outdated versions of
Android and adopted WebOS. Cheap decent tablets for one-off projects!

~~~
av500
Why would they do that and why would they run a more recent version of WebOS?
The Chinese will put the (free) OS with the most apps available, WebOS has a
long way to go to get there... Not even mentioning that _all_ the major
silicon vendors are shipping with Android BSPs these days..

~~~
ricardobeat
It's just an idea. Not depending on Google's release schedule for updates,
better performance (maybe), easier development, customization. The versions
they ship with (1.6, 2.1) leave out thousands of apps anyway.

Android is not free. Maybe some makers are not paying for licenses yet (like
the big players are), but they are on target:
[http://news.softpedia.com/news/Huawei-in-Line-for-
Microsoft-...](http://news.softpedia.com/news/Huawei-in-Line-for-Microsoft-
Android-Patent-Licensing-Deal-233150.shtml) (just hope they don't come after
WebOS...)

------
fa1321
maybe hp is planning for a centralized app store. If the new platform
flourishes as they envision, then it surely means a lot of money for hp.

------
jdavid
What is HP going to do with Synergy? Can they open source that too? Or will
they allow you to take your account to a different platform?

------
jvandenbroeck
Great! I can really see webOs taking over Android on the tablet market imo.
it's a much better experience than Android.

------
MatthewPhillips
<https://github.com/hpwebos/webos/issues>

------
zdw
Hopefully BeOS will come along with it.

~~~
ConstantineXVI
Nope, this Palm (fka PalmOne) that HP bought doesn't own any of the original
PalmOS or BeOS assets; they spun them off as PalmSource in '03 (at the same
time they bought Handspring IIRC), who got bought by Access a few years ago.

------
jonutzz
Webos is actually pretty cool. I hope this helps breathe some life into it

------
snowwrestler
Looks like I will be holding onto these Touchpads! Very exciting news.

------
veyron
Does that mean we will see webos on iPad at one point?

------
soapdog
Can't wait for FOSS ENYO!!!! =)

------
jmount
Sounds like just a ploy to get discount/bribe from Microsoft to switch to
Win8.

~~~
cpeterso
HP had committed to producing Windows 8 tablets, even _before_ they killed
their webOS tablets:

[http://www.bgr.com/2011/10/28/hp-windows-8-tablets-
arriving-...](http://www.bgr.com/2011/10/28/hp-windows-8-tablets-arriving-
next-year-ceo-says-webos-future-up-in-the-air/)

------
turingbook
Why not merging with Tizen to be a dominant platform？

~~~
masklinn
How do you merge two completely and utterly unrelated projects exactly? And
why would they merge WebOS into a project which does not exist and is the
latest in a long line of abject failures to yield any result?

~~~
scriptproof
Tizen = Linux + HTML 5. WebOs = Linux + ENYO or OpenGL. They are not so
unrelated.

------
hastur
Wow, someone at HP has balls. Very impressive.

------
xxiao
i think it's all about apps these days, probably too late for the game?

------
dextorious
First the laugh at you.

Then they copy you.

Then they announce they have an X (your product's name) killer.

Then nobody cares.

Then they open source their product.

------
gms
'Contribute to open source'? More like 'dump onto open source'.

~~~
notatoad
whatever. at this point, open sourcing it is probably the best possible
outcome anybody could have hoped for. be happy they didn't just say "we're
going to lock it in a safe and nobody will ever see it again"

