
NY Attorney General Tells Daily Fantasy Sports to Stop Taking Bets in the State - Amorymeltzer
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/11/sports/football/draftkings-fanduel-new-york-attorney-general-tells-fantasy-sites-to-stop-taking-bets-in-new-york.html
======
slg
That brings the list of states with outright bans to Arizona, Iowa, Louisiana,
Montana, Nevada, New York, and Washington. That is a rather diverse set of
states that probably wouldn't appear together on many other lists. By my rough
math, they also amounts to roughly 15% of the US population that DraftKings
and FanDuel are unable to accept money from. These companies have to be in
full crisis mode at this point and it is hard to imagine they exist in the
same form a year from now without some major reform.

~~~
bko
As a New York resident, the state embarrasses me regularly in terms of the
amount of personal liberty the politicians are willing to trample. Between
Senator Schumer, Attorney General Schneiderman and New York Mayor DeBlasio, I
honestly don't know who is the worst.

Schumer's ban requests include powdered caffeine [0], certain flavors of
e-cigarettes [1] to Bitcoin [2].

Schniederman strikes me as someone more interested in extorting companies. His
most recent subpoena Exxon for not speaking out about climate change to their
investors (??) is his most recent campaign [3]. I'm guessing he wants to buy
more iPads for the police department [4]

DeBlasio has an axe to grind against Uber [5] and costumed characters in Time
Square [6] .

What a joke that this qualifies as progress.

Sorry, rant over.

[0] [http://www.schumer.senate.gov/newsroom/press-
releases/follow...](http://www.schumer.senate.gov/newsroom/press-
releases/following-several-tragic-deaths-schumer-calls-on-the-fda-to-ban-
powdered-caffeine_one-teaspoon-of-concentrated-powdered-caffeine-is-
equivalent-to-25-cups-of-coffee-and-is-highly-dangerous-for-teens--young-
adults-)

[1] [http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Schumer-Calls-for-
FDA-B...](http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Schumer-Calls-for-FDA-Ban-on-
Candy-Flavor-E-Cigarettes-301376931.html)

[2]
[http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2014/02/26/senator...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2014/02/26/senator-
calls-for-bitcoin-ban-in-letter-to-financial-regulators/)

[3]
[http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-11-10/schneiderma...](http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-11-10/schneiderman-
s-dangerous-crusade-against-exxon-mobil)

[4] [http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2015/05/01/french-bank-
settl...](http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2015/05/01/french-bank-settlement-
to-fund-nyc-criminal-justice-initiatives/)

[5] [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/nyregion/de-blasio-
adminis...](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/nyregion/de-blasio-
administration-dropping-plan-for-uber-cap-for-now.html?_r=0)

[6] [http://www1.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/570-15/mayor-
de...](http://www1.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/570-15/mayor-de-blasio-
city-task-force-curb-topless-individuals-costumed-characters-times)

~~~
warfangle
Because the alternative to DeBlasio on the Democratic ticket was Christine
Quinne, Bill Thomson, John Liu and others.

Bill Thomson spent the time between the 09 and 13 election working for an
investment firm, and given the attitude towards politicians owned by banks,
failed to gain the nomination.

Christine Quinne worked with Bloomberg to overturn 2-year term limits on
elected officials, and ran a secret slush fund while she was on the city
council.

Anthony Weiner, well. Was Anthony Weiner.

Randy Credico ran a very lackluster campaign.

While John Liu had a solid platform, his campaign became embroiled in
financial scandal.

On the other side of the aisle, we had John Catsimatidis and Joe Lhota (George
MacDonald ran a campaign as well, but was barely known).

Catsimatidis unabashedly supported the wildly unpopular stop & frisk tactics,
which were (and still are) wildly unpopular.

Lhota was in favor of charter schools instead of fixing our crumbling public
schools (DeBlasio's plans for public schools end up actually working, unlike
charter schools); his mixture of fiscal conservativeness and socially liberal
policies like choice & equal rights turned off the Republican vote - he only
garnered a little more than 20% of the vote.

So it was between DeBlasio and Lhota. DeBlasio spoke to his base and Democrats
actually liked him. Lhota alienated his base and Republicans hated him (and so
did Democrats).

We get crap politicians because crap candidates run. Just like every fucking
where else. Why do we get crap candidates? Because money.

\---

Yeah, the e-cig stuff is stupid. Yeah, the campaign against topless
panhandlers in times square is pretty stupid. The campaign against uber makes
sense, if you're not a proponent of neo-feudalism.

Schneiderman's v. Exxon stuff is actually kind of interesting. It's not that
he's alleging that they failed to disclose climate change to their investors -
you're mincing words, and it's pretty fucking obvious. They failed to inform
their investors of studies that could pose change to their future profits.
Shaky, sure, but not entirely insane. He's not anti-business, he's anti
business that's fucking us over. Keep in mind that Exxon (formerly Standard
Oil) was responsible for one of the largest oil spills on US soil - right here
in Brooklyn.

~~~
bko
Do you really believe that it's about Exxon's investors? I imagine the
proceeds from whatever settlement would go to those affected, according to
your description, the shareholders who's future profit's will be hurt from
withholding their studies?

You can sue for oil spills. You can put in a gas tax. But what's Schniderman
is doing is a shake-down, led by populism. I get it, no one likes Exxon (me
included) and my opinions may not be popular. But these lawsuits are a new
form of hidden tax paid by shareholders, not some mythical corporate entity.
He even went after an English bank (Barclays) for something to do with their
dark pool. It doesn't go to those harmed by the actions. You can read about
where the money goes. It goes to government agencies, and yes, iPads for the
police. It's fine if politicians think there are worthy programs they want to
fund, but this isn't rule of law.

[http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/11/20/where-does-
jpmorgans-...](http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/11/20/where-does-
jpmorgans-13-billion-go/)

------
swang
Welcome to the online poker world ~4 years ago. The only difference (and the
question is, 'will this be enough to keep it alive?') is that DFS has the
backing of sports leagues (MLB, NFL) that have big lobby groups who can
"influence" politicians. Doesn't matter how much money you have if you don't
have this influence.

IANAL so correct me if I'm wrong, but assuming DFS sites challenges citing
that banks can legally take their transactions (through the UIGEA and thus,
"not gambling"), wouldn't NY need to pass a law to bar DFS in the state?

~~~
rcarrigan87
Poker was a little different. They were violating some major banking laws with
how they were doing deposits. Also the companies were overseas...

------
chollida1
This decision baffles me.

What possible benefit to New Yorkers is there to not allow them to take bets,
if things like state lotteries are still legal?

We let people drink and smoke but people can't enjoy putting money on fantasy
sports.

I'm not in the state, but I'd consider myself a power user of those sites, so
perhaps I'm only disappointed that alot of easy money just left the system.

If these sites didn't have the people(NFL and Jerry Jones) and money(see
people) behind them that they do, I'd be a bit more worried about their
future.

Is this just some state's working on an endgame to be able to tax fantasy
sports revenue that comes from their states?

This is the same state that outlawed pinball until someone proved that it was
a game of skill.

[http://www.slate.com/blogs/atlas_obscura/2015/05/29/pinball_...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/atlas_obscura/2015/05/29/pinball_was_banned_in_new_york_until_a_single_miraculous_shot_convinced.html)

That's it, its time I took this into my own hands, and went on a major winning
spree to prove that fantasy football and hockey are really games of skill and
not chance:)

~~~
JonFish85
Is it about that specifically, or is it that the states are forcing these
websites to play by the same rules as everyone else? Ignoring laws that
everyone else has to play by is something that has worked so far for Airbnb
and Uber but apparently something like gambling is a bit more clear cut.

~~~
tikhonj
The two aren't mutually exclusive. If they are just forcing them to "play by
the same rules", Chollida's question just becomes "why are the rules in the
state stacked against gambling?", with the rest of the question unchanged.

It's perfectly possible to fairly enforce unfair (and/or fair but
counterproductive) rules, but that on its own doesn't justify it. Viewed this
way, these companies are then just engaging in something like constructive
noncompliance.

~~~
rayiner
Your question reduces to: why is gambling illegal? And the answer is that lots
of people don't like it, and people are entitled to make things they don't
like illegal.

A recent poll found that 55% of people think sports betting should be legal,
while 33% think it should be illegal:
[https://www13.shu.edu/academics/business/sports-
polling/uplo...](https://www13.shu.edu/academics/business/sports-
polling/upload/11-14-NBA-gambling.pdf). But if you read closely, support drops
off dramatically in the 45+ age group, which is heavily over-represented at
the polls, especially in local elections.

One study found that the median age of voters in mayoral elections in four
cities was 60:
[http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/7/28/p...](http://www.knightfoundation.org/blogs/knightblog/2015/7/28/portland-
state-study-seniors-much-more-likely-cast-ballots-young-votes).

~~~
jdminhbg
> people are entitled to make things they don't like illegal

Things like gay marriage, flag burning, and atheists holding public office,
right?

~~~
GalacticDomin8r
That known as the "tyranny of the majority" and yes it's one of those warts no
one likes to credit democracy with.

------
komaromy
It'd be nice if more reporting on the subject highlighted the absurdity of DFS
being legal but betting on game outcomes illegal. I think that DFS should be
legal but at least the NY AG is being consistent in enforcement.

~~~
eric_h
The amusing thing is that they're quoting the fact that 1% of players win most
of the money and therefore DFS is gambling. I'd argue that the fact that 1%
win most of the time is the strongest signal that it's a game of skill
(assuming it's the same 1%).

~~~
makomk
Due to the way these are structured the main "skill", so to speak, is
apparently figuring out what bets other people have made so that you can make
different bets, because unpopular bets have a better expected payout than
popular ones. That's why most of the profits go to industry insiders who
understand what kind of players people bet on.

~~~
eric_h
Given the information we have, it's certainly possible that some of that one
percent used insider information.

Nevertheless, given the number of players that draft kings and fan duel have
acquired through their indefatigable marketing campaigns, I would submit that
a not insignificant portion (if not a majority) of that one percent figure out
the bets others wouldn't make all on their own.

Further, math and computers can most certainly help with this given that all
the relevant data is public.

How long 'til this goes the way of HFT in the stock market?

------
GalacticDomin8r
I'm all for this simply to get the commercials off the air. I was almost
missing the constant barrage of cell phones and insurance providers.

I had the sense they knew this was coming and that's why they hit the
advertising so hard. If they can get enough momentum, they can make it legal.

------
rdtsc
Hmm interesting take on things:

\---

“It is clear that DraftKings and FanDuel are the leaders of a massive,
multibillion-dollar scheme intended to evade the law and fleece sports fans
across the country,”

\---

Also I guess a site served from another state considered to be "in state"
according to their interpretation. I wonder if these sites can tacitly (hint,
hint, wink, wink) nudge their users to put in a different state in their
profiles. With a disclaimer and all or just simply make everyone pick a state
but remove the states that disallow it. Let users "figure it out".

------
bbanyc
New York's state constitution bans all unauthorized gambling and restricts the
types of authorized gambling to (1) the state lottery, (2) parimutuel betting
on horse races, (3) bingo and raffles by charitable organizations, and (4) no
more than seven casino licenses. (I remember this from when the casino
amendment was proposed; I voted against it because arbitrarily limiting the
number of licenses stunk of corruption. If you're going to legalize gambling
just legalize it all the way.)

Without a constitutional amendment, which in New York requires the approval of
two consecutive legislatures to pass, it looks like daily fantasy is dead in
this state.

------
rdlecler1
This chance/skill argument could be made for the financial markets.

~~~
wpietri
The distinction with financial markets is that they are enablers of useful
economic activity.

Years ago I worked for financial traders in Chicago, home to a lot of
commodities markets. Thousands of people traded futures and options on those
markets. But every winter, there was also the Chicago snow markets, where
those same traders would illegally trade futures and options on how much snow
would fall each month at O'Hare airport. It was illegal because it was not a
CFTC-regulated market; it was just a gambling operation that happened to use
financial lingo to make the best more interesting.

Interestingly, I see that decades later a legal snow market was actually
launched:

[http://openmarkets.cmegroup.com/4967/a-market-for-snow-
how-s...](http://openmarkets.cmegroup.com/4967/a-market-for-snow-how-some-
businesses-use-futures-to-prepare-for-winter)

Here, though they had found a legitimate purpose: it let people with snow-
related expenses insure themselves against excessive snow-related expenses.

------
gefh
Excellent news. These sites prey on the people who can least afford to lose
and as the article noted seriously misrepresent the chances of winning. Shame
on the NFL for their involvement.

------
flint
What disruptive technology is disrupting is not markets, but government.

~~~
teej
In what way is daily fantasy sports gambling "disruptive technology"?

~~~
GalacticDomin8r
In the $2,000,000,000/yr way and in the "Getting Disney to be part owner in a
gambling site" way.

~~~
ubernostrum
Well, there may also be the "new ways to commit insider trading" way,
depending on how that story turns out.

