
My Underground Warfare Wish List - jspencer508
https://mwi.usma.edu/underground-warfare-wish-list/
======
dmckeon
As a wish list and an idea-sparking exploration, this is quite interesting. I
would add some sort of return-path and side-passage marking system, perhaps
with paint or ink that is only visible in some combinations of illumination
and goggles, that is more resistant to being cut or redirected than IR cord or
rope.

Batteries and LED bulbs have come a long way in the last 30 years, and the
community of civilian cavers would be a good source for suggestions about
durable equipment. Ask people in Huntsville, AL - the home of an Army base,
rocket scientists, karst topography, and the NSS
<[https://caves.org>](https://caves.org>).

~~~
smacktoward
With AR you wouldn't even need a physical marking, the system could keep track
of where everyone's been and show breadcrumbs in everyone else's
display/goggles/whatever.

(Of course this assumes some kind of connectivity between the headsets of the
various members of the fire team, which could itself be vulnerable in various
ways. Painting the walls does have the virtue of simplicity, which counts for
a lot in these scenarios.)

~~~
cwmma
you'd need to measure against something, since you probably won't have GPS and
dead reckoning probably work very long

~~~
MR4D
Inertial guidance on a cellphone was written up last year. It's clearly a work
in progress, but it's a good start. HN link to it is here [0].

I'd bet that if this continues (and I presume the military would want to
ensure it continues if only for redundancy purposes), that we'll have accurate
inertial guidance on our phones in a decade.

[0] -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19203494](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19203494)

~~~
cwmma
the thing about dead reckoning is that anything less then perfect tends to
have degraded usefulness after a while unless supplemented with some outside
data to reference again.

Now thing about a soldier underground who might be subjected to explosions
nearby, shooting, being shot at, having to dive for cover and these are all
things that are going to screw up any inertial guidance system which is why
the suggestions of paint or something make a whole lot of sense.

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Bucephalus355
The author talks about the importance of tunnel warfare.

About halfway between Dallas and Austin is Ft. Hood, the Army’s largest base.
After WWII, so only a few years after it had been set up in the first place,
the Army dynamited a series of caves in the very sparse western section of the
base to carve out a massive underground structure for nuclear weapons.

The Army doesn’t use / maintain nuclear weapons anymore, but the bunker has
been repurposed into a basically one-of-a-kind underground training
environment. Units from all over the world train there. Pretty cool stuff.

[https://www.chron.com/news/houston-
texas/texas/article/Littl...](https://www.chron.com/news/houston-
texas/texas/article/Little-known-underground-Texas-nuclear-bunker-5252582.php)

------
jmrobertson
Sounds like a lot of power reqs, and therefore a lot of AA/AAA batteries. For
many of the more tech-forward piece of equip the Army produces, there is a
heavy dependency on batteries to the tune of 10xAAA for ~2hrs of consistent
use, for example. That sort of burn rate turns into massive, massive, MASSIVE
battery requirements for even 24 hr operations. There simply is not enough
ruck space.

That's all to say, these ideas sound great. But the odds that the Army has a
combat-loaded Soldier + ruck try to carry whatever comes out of this before
fielding it all to the force are rather low. Or, solve power source first.

~~~
chrisseaton
What's a 'ruck'? The US term for a pack carried on your back?

They keep suggesting ideas like a single battery pack and a power distribution
system integrated into your vest. But I think that'll end up very much like
'14 competing standards... now 15 competing standards.' You already have
systems needing AA, AAA, and CR123A. You can never balance how many you need
as well so you're wasting and running out of AAA when you have tons of AA
still left.

I also feel terrible when I get back from just a couple of days on the ground
and have to recycle (no idea how they recycle them, let's be pessimistic and
calling it really throwing away) a KG or more of batteries.

~~~
Jtsummers
A rucksack is a backpack. The term has become more common in civilian use but
was primarily from military use. According to Wikipedia it's from German, not
sure how it entered the US/UK military lingo.

~~~
chrisseaton
Ah - I had heard the term 'rucking' now I think about it.

> not sure how it entered the US/UK military lingo

'Ruck' is definitely not UK military lingo! Talking about a 'rucksack' sounds
extremely civilian to my British ears.

The UK military term is 'bergen' or 'daysack' or something smaller.

~~~
Jtsummers
Wikipedia claims UK military uses the term, I added that only from there. It's
definitely common in US military lingo and the military-wannabes (see the many
civilians or law enforcement who buy GoRuck rucksacks and attend Go Ruck
events). I probably should've limited my comment to US-only, but went with
what Wikipedia said and added it.

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AtlasBarfed
I CANNOT believe this list does not include automapping via AR or other means.

~~~
jspencer508
For sure one of the biggest needs. I did link to the DARPA project working on
that now. I just didn't add it to my list because it is being worked on so
aggressively.

~~~
Junk_Collector
Nearly everything on your list already exists and much is in limited use by
the military already.

I think you missed the biggest item you missed is good hearing protection and
sound suppression. In enclosed spaces all the normal issues with loud noises
(i.e. guns and explosives) are massively magnified. In fact, it would be
terrible to bring a dog much less a canary into this environment.

------
goda90
Several of these ideas could be combined into a remote controlled robot that
can go in front of soldiers and around corners while keeping an eye in every
direction. If it encounters an enemy combatant the operator could deploy some
of the blinding light/sound nonlethals directly on the robot before the
soldiers move in.

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justtopost
Half of these seem poorly thought out, and this seems poorly written for
someone of that position. For instance, #3 blinding lights, is easily
mitigated by #2 non-ambient/thermal vision. #4, sound weapons are going to
effect everyone in the tunnel, so offense is limited. #10 foam grenades, are
less effective for concealment, and ineffective as cover, most outgas toxic
and flamable vocs. Existing procedure of collapsing tunnel has neither
downside and accomplished with existing, legacy, and improvised tech. I won't
even touch on headlamps, and insisting on an _actual_ live canary.

~~~
zeveb
> For instance, #3 blinding lights, is easily mitigated by #2 non-
> ambient/thermal vision.

No, because you need to use your susceptible-to-blinding eyes to use the
thermal-vision system. Also, of course, the fact that I have blinding &
thermal-vision systems doesn't mean that my foe does.

> #4, sound weapons are going to effect everyone in the tunnel, so offense is
> limited.

That's true in general of acoustic weapons. Presumably if they can be made
directional above-ground they might be made directional below-ground — or they
could be treated as acoustic 'grenades,' in that they are deployed prior to
ingress.

> #10 foam grenades, are less effective for concealment, and ineffective as
> cover, most outgas toxic and flamable vocs. Existing procedure of collapsing
> tunnel has neither downside and accomplished with existing, legacy, and
> improvised tech.

A small amount of slightly-carcinogenic gas beats getting shot. Sealing off a
tunnel connected to the one I'm in seems far preferable to collapsing it and
possibly my own. It also could make rescuing civilians who've taken shelter in
the tunnel system more possible.

> I won't even touch on headlamps, and insisting on an actual live canary.

I'd trust an actual live animal a lot more than I would some lowest-bidder
system.

~~~
potta_coffee
Foam grenade would be small, how much foam could such a grenade conceivable
deliver? Probably not enough to do anything.

~~~
emj
To fill a door with foam you would need at least 20 liters of ABfoam liquid,
not an impossible concept.

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arcaster
IR reflective rope / tag-line seems novel enough. Also seems like a ballistic
foam "munition" could also likely work.

Some of these ideas are half-baked but interesting nonetheless.

~~~
noir_lord
Tear gas and the like would likely work better as well without moving air to
clear them.

~~~
BWStearns
I believe the use of tear gas in combat is prohibited under Geneva
Conventions.

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a3n
Creating your own tunnels and safe spaces sounds like Minecraft. Maybe they
should adapt Minecraft for training the mindset.

------
shove
Love to fantasize about even more war toys which will of course only be used
to “spread democracy” etc etc and obviously will never make their way into the
hands of racist domestic police forces to use on activists once they’re on
sale as military surplus. Very legal and very cool.

~~~
lainga
Well, I'm not sure why you're bringing up their legality. Are you talking
about the Geneva Conventions? with respect to the blinding lights?

~~~
Tronno
He is ironically quoting the POTUS: [https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/very-
legal-and-very-cool](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/very-legal-and-very-cool)

~~~
lainga
Well, please, don't do that, or assume bad faith, it's counter-guidelines.

On the actual topic at hand, even assuming this technology finds its way into
the hands of police forces (racism or not), what's the use case? People hiding
in sewers and drainage pipes? Natural cave systems? Underground mall networks
in urban environments? The item with the most potential for invasion of
privacy in the article is the ground-penetrating radar (when pointed sideways
at houses), but that has already been around for a few years, and there is
both literature and case law on police using radar in that capacity.

~~~
shove
It’ll be used to clear homeless out of underground / tight urban spaces just
for starters

