
China Cracks Down on Churches - traderjane
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/25/world/asia/china-christmas-church-crackdown.html
======
tivert
> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing
> religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict
> with the aims of China’s authoritarian government and Mr. Xi’s embrace of
> traditional Chinese culture and Confucian teachings that emphasize obedience
> and order.

> But the government’s heavy-handed efforts to obliterate several high-profile
> churches have been met with resistance among Christians....

> “If you see the police, national security or community workers greet them
> with gentleness,” Wen Hongbin, an elder at Xishuipang, told the
> congregation. “If they try to grab the microphone, I ask the brothers
> sitting in the front row to please stop them.” ...

> Independent churches like Early Rain, with more than 500 members, have
> attracted large followings in recent years, especially among white-collar
> workers seeking an escape from rampant materialism at the center of modern
> Chinese life.

> While sermons at state-sanctioned churches are often tightly scripted,
> independent churches boom with searing indictments of corrupt officials and
> rousing calls to protect the rights of the poor....

> “I saw injustices in society,” Mr. Gu said. “I saw that the government’s
> promotion of China as a just country that enforces laws in a civilized
> manner was all a lie.”

> Worried for his own safety, Mr. Gu recently closed his business, hoping to
> avoid government scrutiny. He said he has grown fearful as he has watched
> the police arrest his friends.

These people are much braver than I am, and I wish them peace and strength to
overcome these trials.

~~~
StevePerkins
> _...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing
> religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict
> with the aims of China’s authoritarian government_

This is the part that confuses me.

I'm not sure what Christianity _intrinsically_ promotes (ask 12 Christians and
I suspect you'll receive 13 conflicting opinions). But _practically speaking_
, governments and ruling classes have used it for nearly two-thousand years to
promote social order and subservience.

It's been used to justify the Crusades, and slavery. Within living memory it's
been used to justify Jim Crow laws, and the Salvation Army used as a tool
against labor union organizing. It's been used to promote leftist regimes in
Catholic South America, and the far-right "Protestant work ethic" class
structure in the USA. It's been used everywhere to enforce a social order
based on strict sexual norms and patriarchal gender roles.

Christianity became one of the Top Two religions on earth, precisely because
of how malleable it is. In other words, _in practice_ , it tends to promote
whatever the ruling class in a given place and time WANT it to promote. It's
been that way since Emperor Constantine.

So why try to violently suppress it? That's never been an effective strategy.
Just co-opt it, and _make_ it promote whatever Chinese/Confucian values you
want like everyone else does.

~~~
partiallypro
You have a grave misreading of the history of Christianity. It was used as a
control device when it was centrally controlled and delivered (like all
religions)...the invention of the printing press changed all of that with the
Reformation. Once the knowledge was spread through the people and open to
interpretations, the general direction of Christianity (despite all the faults
of modern movements) has trended towards equality and freedom, which is much
in line with the Gospels. Martin Luther and John Calvin had a profound impact,
and once you saw those movements you began to see all the modern western
values emerge, from economics to political freedom.

~~~
Fricken
In Chinese history it's a little different. The Taiping rebellion was a
militant uprising against the ruling Manchus by a Christian Millenarian sect
known as the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, in the mid 19th century.

It was the bloodiest war of the 19th century, and the bloodiest civil war in
history, with an estimated 20-70 million killed.

You don't have to agree with China's response to these chruches, but maybe you
can understand why they get nervous when Christians start getting uppity.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion)

~~~
tivert
> In Chinese history it's a little different. The Taiping rebellion was a
> militant uprising against the ruling Manchus by a Christian Millenarian sect
> known as the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, in the mid 19th century.

> You don't have to agree with China's response to these chruches [sic], but
> maybe you can understand why they get nervous when Christians start getting
> uppity.

That's just a pretext, if anything. This oppression isn't some challenging but
benevolent attempt by the Communist Party to protect China from a bloody civil
war based on past historical experiences, it's part of systematic campaign to
protect the personal and institutional power amassed by China's unelected
leaders and keep the country submissive to them.

This is clear when you look these actions in context: the repressive actions
against democracy activists before, after, and on June 4th 1989; as well as
more recent actions against human rights lawyers
([https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/magazine/the-lonely-
crusa...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/magazine/the-lonely-crusade-of-
chinas-human-rights-lawyers.html) ); and even Communist true believers acting
outside of party control
([https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/11/world/asia/china-
student-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/11/world/asia/china-student-
activists.html) ).

------
DoreenMichele
The fish is a symbol for Christianity precisely because of its long history of
being forbidden. The Greek word for _fish_ is an acronym for, iirc, Jesus
Christ, God, and the Holy Spirit. (That's from memory from taking two classes
of Greek in the Bible Belt more than 20 years ago. I think I googled it
recently and got something that did not include Holy Spirit.)

It seems to me the Christian tradition of being a persecuted religion makes it
well suited to fostering an underground movement in an oppressive climate. I
imagine this is the Crux of the issue, both a reason it appeals and a reason
the government is trying to shut it down.

I'm seeing some remarks in comments that don't fit my understanding of the
history. Christianity spread in part because it was very open to embracing
local customs. This is why we have an Easter Bunny and Santa Claus associated
with major Christian religious holidays. Jesus also said "Render unto Caesar
that which is Caesar's." Iirc, he was talking about paying taxes.

So, on the one hand, it's a subversive religion. On the other hand, it's a
religion that is flexible and not absolutist. It can coexist with a lot of
other things.

Jesus himself was subversive. Among other things, he overturned the tables of
the money changers because he was offended that this was at the church.

The biblical stories thus contain information about how to engage in
nonviolent resistance. Again, this may be a big part of the appeal. Is there
much difference between saving your soul and saving you from tyranny and
oppression?

------
saagarjha
Regardless of your faith (or lack thereof), I hope you agree that this is
pretty horrible from a freedom of expression perspective :/

~~~
gammateam
(disclaimer, this is more of a FYI than my opinion about anything)

> From the article: The government requires religious groups to register.

China allows for the operation of pretty much all religions including the
world's favorite Abrahamic ones. Unregistered religions pique the interest of
countries founded on religious persecution, and ignore the operation of
registered ones.

Registered ones are able to continue verbatim teachings, but obviously cannot
be used to talk about "subversive ideas", in China.

The limitation about what can be discussed, and even the strings attached to
the registration requirements (gov't officials part of the church) are things
to criticize. Many proponents of any of their religions find registration to
be an unfavorable condition.

The point is that this title could just as easily be "China's Christian
registrations flourish". Because they do and they are probably the second
largest Christian population in the world - simply because the rest of the
world is less populated - while a non-registered minority also contains
possibly tens of millions of people and it will seem like any massive civil
rights crackdown because it also affects millions of people.

~~~
maratd
This is horrendously inaccurate. Yes, if you're a part of a sect controlled by
the Communist Party, you're ok. The idea that this is a viable alternative ...
I'm beyond words. The fact that you cannot purchase books at the heart of
those Abrahamic religions says enough. You cannot even practice in the safety
of your own home.

~~~
gammateam
> This is horrendously inaccurate. Yes, if you're a part of a sect controlled
> by the Communist Party, you're ok. The idea that this is a viable
> alternative ... I'm beyond words.

I didn't say or suggest it was a viable alternative. I literally wrote it was
unfavorable.

With that in mind, what is inaccurate about what I wrote?

------
ghobs91
This is why it's frustrating when some make it seem that Christians are
incapable of facing persecution, based entirely on their experiences in the
US.

The Christians in China are very brave for standing by their faith, and I wish
them luck and peace.

~~~
kadendogthing
>This is why it's frustrating when some make it seem that Christians are
incapable of facing persecution,

Literally no one does this. Western Christians are incapable of facing
persecution in the current social and economic climate. This is because
Christians by and large make up every pillar of Western society. It has
nothing to do with someone being a Christian else where in the world. The
sentiment you are attempting to inaccurately portray is rooted in the fact
that you have silly things like the "War on Christmas" and actual citizens
(who are Christians) complaining that obeying the constitution and not
imposing their religion on others is somehow equivalent to persecution.

Your conflation of the two is your own error, not others.

~~~
ghobs91
I agree with you that the "war on Christmas" stuff is nonsense, but you'd be
surprised at how many people write off Christian persecution, based solely on
the fact that some of the most powerful nations in the world are "Christian
nations".

~~~
kadendogthing
I think you think people hold such opinions, not that they actually do. It's a
really contrived point that comes up in these types of conversations.

Feel free to link any kind of substantial material backing up the frequency of
such opinions.

~~~
dvtrn
The lack of awareness on display right now is astounding and borderline
offensive, people just don't hold the "opinion" that Christians are persecuted
around the world, they are pointing to actual current _events_ of Christian
persecution.

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/egyptian-church-hit-by-bomb-
bla...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/egyptian-church-hit-by-bomb-
blast-1491727099)

[https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/29-coptic-christians-
mu...](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/29-coptic-christians-murdered-on-
route-to-a-monastery_us_592c632de4b0a7b7b469cc6d)

[https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/06/18/mosuls-christians-
say-g...](https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/06/18/mosuls-christians-say-goodbye/)

[http://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/iraq/10032018](http://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/iraq/10032018)

~~~
kadendogthing
You have significantly misunderstood the context of the conversation.

No one has said that Christians aren't persecuted around the world. No one has
even implied this was the case. Because people don't hold such opinions.

He is implying that people hold these opinions. I am asking for some kind of
substantial material validating the frequency of such opinions.

It helps to respond to the actual conversation instead of contrived strawmans.
You are very much proving my point.

+1 For self-awareness, it would have saved you writing out that post.

~~~
dvtrn
_I am asking for some kind of substantial material validating the frequency of
such opinions._

What are the odds that I could go to ten different blogs from ten different
Joe's from across the internet saying how bad it is for Christians in the
world, come back here, link them, that you'll backpedal more to say that the
sources provided aren't authoritative enough?

~~~
nkozyra
The problem seems to be conflating the notion that Christians in the
US/Western nations are persecuted with the capacity for any Christian or
Christian group to be persecuted elsewhere.

Because it's a common response to things like the gay wedding cake and "happy
holidays," etc. It's not surprising those things evoke such a dismissal.

But such a dismissal is not all inclusive. Because we don't see, say, gay
marriage as a persecution of Christianity doesn't mean we believe Christians
are intrinsically incapable of being persecuted.

------
upofadown
Down at the bottom of the article:

>While sermons at state-sanctioned churches are often tightly scripted,
independent churches boom with searing indictments of corrupt officials and
rousing calls to protect the rights of the poor.

>Early Rain, which Mr. Wang founded in 2008, was among the most daring. Mr.
Wang called Mr. Xi a sinner, held prayer sessions each year to mark the brutal
crackdown on pro-democracy demonstrations around Tiananmen Square in Beijing
in 1989, and organized a fund to support relatives of political prisoners in
China.

So just good old fashioned suppression of political dissent. The fact that
they were churches could be entirely irrelevant.

------
levifromhungary
Underground churches are stronger every time they are persecuted. Success,
prosperity are much more dangerous for most of the christian churches in the
western world.

------
rasengan
I can’t believe the people’s names were exposed. I hope those were
pseudonymns.

~~~
Guereric
I was surprised by this and the amount of detail regarding the workarounds by
the local dissenters. Nowhere in the article did it state that PII was masked.

I wonder if the assumption is that, all the descriptions in the article are
already known to the CCP.

------
starbeast
I'm a left wing atheist. While people like Dawkins and Hitchens may declare
religion the root of all evil, I try to have some self awareness on the
subject. I look at the 20th century and need only pick two names, Stalin and
Mao, to find left wing atheism being drenched in blood.

Killing for a dogma is the issue. And those who claim that religion is
responsible for all misery are precious few philosophical steps away from
doing exactly that.

edit - for some perspective, here's Tony Benn on the many links between
socialist ideologies and christianity. - [https://jacobinmag.com/2018/12/tony-
benn-christianity-social...](https://jacobinmag.com/2018/12/tony-benn-
christianity-socialism-neighborly-love)

edit2 - For another perspective, while the crackdown on christianity is harsh,
the crackdown on muslims is next level. Which is odd on the face of it as
muslims tend to be more left wing in practice than christians.

~~~
rohit2412
I dont think new atheism proponents like Dawkins and hitchens propose
religious persecution like communists.

Looking for social change towards atheism, like a third-wave atheism is very
different from imposing atheism on people.

~~~
starbeast
They don't propose it explicitly, they just lead people to it. Once you have
started believing that religion is the root of all evil, you do not have to
travel very far at all to find yourself persecuting the religious. The
position they espouse isn't just a serious logical mistake, it is a terrible
moral one.

~~~
rohit2412
Then you also lead people to theocracy.

There are positions one can take between "all religions are peaceful, good,
and true", and "kill the religious"

~~~
starbeast
You don't lead people to theocracy by warning against killing for dogma. On
the other hand, creating dogmas about religion being the source of all evil
can have pretty awful consequences.

There isn't a simple road between the two positions you gave, there is an
entire territory.

------
RyanShook
The paradox is that the more the government cracks down on Christianity, the
more it will likely flourish.

~~~
chillacy
Why do you think that’s true? China has cracked down on: democracy in the 80s,
Falun Gong, Tibet, Islam, and now Christianity. None of the previous groups
have “flourished” yet. Some have basically died, others had to go abroad to
survive, none are mainstream in China l.

~~~
therealdrag0
History is unpredictable, but Christianity has a long tradition of
persecution, with even a lot of primary texts (Bible) supporting it, so it is
an expected/welcomed experience. This can give the followers a lot of strength
under persecution.

Examples:

2 Timothy 3:12 - "Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus
will be persecuted,"

John 15:18 - “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it
hated you."

Or just think of the story of Jesus; when the main character(s) in your
religion gets beaten and killed, the followers really feel like they're on the
right path when it happens to them too.

~~~
chillacy
That's pretty convincing, christianity has been around for a lot longer than
the CCP, so by the Lindy effect we would expect it to outlive the CCP.

------
marknadal
Why was this kicked off #1 of homepage and now can't be found but by direct
link?

~~~
dang
Nationalistic and religious flamewar are not only off topic here, they give
off toxic fumes that poison the community. We put a lot of effort into trying
not to let such forces destroy this place.

When indignation goes into the red, intellectual curiosity is the first
casualty, so the mandate of the site requires moderation here.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
sverige
This statement by Wang Yi is instructive.

[http://www.chinapartnership.org/blog/2018/12/my-
declaration-...](http://www.chinapartnership.org/blog/2018/12/my-declaration-
of-faithful-disobedience)

------
nkkollaw
In Poland during Communism people would ask each other in church: "oh, I
didn't know you were Catholic?", "I'm not. I'm against Communism".

------
NedIsakoff
Are you surprised? China suffered 20-30 million deaths under the "Brother of
Christ". It does not want another "Brother" or "Sister"..

~~~
77pt77
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion)

For those not getting the reference,

~~~
starbeast
I did not get the reference and reading through, this is something I know very
little about. Thank you for providing a link.

~~~
77pt77
The fact that I only became acquainted with this so late in life is a
testament to how provincial my education (and most people's) is.

------
40acres
Does China have a state religion? Seems like the government clamps down on all
of the major religions, is it a secular culture?

~~~
tivert
> Does China have a state religion? Seems like the government clamps down on
> all of the major religions, is it a secular culture?

A somewhat tongue in cheek take is: China's state religion is Communism and
it's state Church is the Communist Party of China. All of its leaders,
officials, and people are required to study Communism and pay lip service to
it, whether the believe it or not. However, no one there can take Communism
too seriously, because the party's real religion is that of centralized power
and submission to it: [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/11/world/asia/china-
student-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/11/world/asia/china-student-
activists.html)

------
raverbashing
This hasn't started today, most forms of religious organizations were already
heavily supervised in China

------
jhcl
Somehow it is easier to be ignorant and believe something happens to you you
can't do anything about. There's no problem in that, everyone has a right to
live his/her way as long as it doesn't disturb other peoples right to do so.

The problem are the troublemakers that set themselves at the head of those
sects and mess things up for those who happen to choose a different mindset.

------
lgleason
This is why we need to sever economic ties with China. The more we support
this the worse this type of thing will intensify, including beyond China's
borders....and it won't stop at just Christianity, they have targeted Islam
and, Buddhists etc. as well.

~~~
dgut
On the contrary. I think our leaders should spend more time together. Maybe
they should even vacation together.

The US severed economic ties with Cuba in the 60s and look what happened (only
recently celebrating Christmas became legal, and property that belonged to the
church was returned). There are countless examples like that.

~~~
wintom
What exactly happened after the U.S. severed ties with Cuba? You make it sound
like we lost something.

They are still stuck in the 1960s, their economy is absolute garbage and the
people are dirt poor, they lost multiple generations of opportunity.

Have you been to Cuba? It’s like going back in time 70 years.. the country
itself is beautiful if they had taken a different path they could be
incredibly propsorous. A small country like Cuba could get by on tourism alone
and do much better than they do now.

Everyone needs to take their own path, if suppressing people’s religions and
no freedom is that path the Chinese want to take then that’s their choice.

Our government and our corporations should not support that.

~~~
iforgotpassword
They make it sound like they lost something. As in, if they wouldn't have been
isolated it might have turned out better for the average Cuban.

~~~
pm90
It’s not certain that it would. But participation in the global economy is one
way to get a country hooked on the economic crack that is the modern financial
system. Once they’re hooked, economic sanctions (sometimes just the threat of
them) are much more effective in achieving desired behavior.

------
jxi
How does news like this even get out of the country with the information
controls in place?

~~~
tivert
> How does news like this even get out of the country with the information
> controls in place?

China isn't North Korea. There's a lot of travel of both Westerners and
Chinese into and out of China, and free-ish communication between them. Within
China, you can talk about many things _privately_ without having to worry
about the police showing up. The government's big red lines are _public_
advocacy and _especially_ political organization.

[https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/randomized-
experiment...](https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/randomized-experimental-
study-censorship-china)

 _Fear No Evil_ by Natan Sharansky describes a similar situation in the Soviet
Union: [https://www.amazon.com/Fear-No-Evil-Natan-
Sharansky/dp/18916...](https://www.amazon.com/Fear-No-Evil-Natan-
Sharansky/dp/1891620029/). (As in aside, is there a Chinese translation?)

~~~
saagarjha
News comes out of countries like North Korea as well, since it is incredibly
hard to suppress the spread of information, even despite the numerous policies
the government has put into place aimed at curbing propagation.

------
julienreszka
That's how the one party rule will eventually end. Chinese trolls will
probably downvote this comment into oblivion.

~~~
tree_of_item
I don't consider myself a Chinese troll, but I'm going to downvote you for
trying to guilt people out of downvoting you.

------
newnewpdro
Good riddance.

~~~
dang
Religious flamewar is not ok here. Please don't post like this to HN again.
More generally, please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
jeswin
I participate in Christian festivities and find them quite joyful. It's a
wonderful time of the year for most of the world.

However, whether countries should allow the propogation of religion and
mythology is entirely up to them. Many countries have laws against various
forms of deception - and religion straddles that line (of deception) so often.
If action is being taken against the people who propagate "falsety" rather
than against the "mislead", the ethicality of such action is quite defensible.

~~~
friedman23
> However, whether countries should allow the propogation of religion and
> mythology is entirely up to them.

This isn't a democratic country, so you should rephrase your statement
justifying this as "whether an authoritarian cabal should allow the
propagation of a religion and mythology is entirely up to them"

A person's beliefs are up to them not their government.

~~~
13of40
> A person's beliefs are up to them not their government.

How do you square that with the fact that most religious people were
indoctrinated at an early age by their relatives and community, rather than
developing their beliefs on their own? At the end of the day, it's not a
struggle for freedom versus government control, it's a struggle over who gets
to do the indoctrinating.

------
21
The Western imperialistic view of the world is not the only correct one.

We should have a multi-polar world, where China and Russia also get to impose
their views and values.

~~~
lostlogin
Impose? Is that really the word you wanted to use?

------
intralizeee
“Writing from the perspective of a person who literally had a life ruined by
religious ideology impairing the mental judgement of parental figures. This is
literally one of the best things I've read in my life. Going to be unpopular
opinion because of people indoctrinated into freedom of expression but why
not. Religious ideology has done more damage than terrorism to LGBT people.
The result has lead to suicides and the law has done nothing to remedy the
people abused. The people running the "faith" systems are nothing more than
celebs to people who desire their fix and when it develops into a mental
illness of pushing upon others.. people look the other way. Since "who has all
the money" gets to keep the show running. No compassion exists in this world.
Just agenda pushing by who has all the finances.” Shouldn’t be flagged

~~~
Fins
Communists ruined (often permanently and quite fatally) lives of far more
people. And they don't like the LGBT tribe much either. Short of this being a
harbinger of the last communist being hanged with the guts of the last
christian (with apologies to Voltaire) very soon, I fail to see how this could
be "one of the best things I've read in my life".

------
theseadroid
Why is this even on Hacker News? Does the majority of readers here have the
expertise to comment on the matter?

~~~
llacb47
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

"What to Submit

On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes
more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the
answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."

~~~
PavlovsCat
But then look at the front page, look how it never applies to everything, not
even close, and how trivial, cute subjects never get these complaints.

People are avoiding their own responsibility and don't like when others
exercise it. Since I can only guess anyway, that's my guess. What I know for a
fact is that the reasons against such a topic simply being where the interest
of people puts it, do not hold water, that is, are always selectively applied.
That in itself is intellectually interesting, but we are not allowed to
personally question posters on HN too much, even when it's done it's barely
rewarded with an honest reply, so we aren't intellectuals enough for that
stuff. It's pointless to talk about the aggregate of a group when individuals
remain opaque, so the whole subject is simply beyond our reach, as
intellectually stimulating and important as it may be.

We should know what a double standard is though: If we can pretend wiggly
lines satisfy our intellectual curiosity, we can take note of a country that
already build massive concentration camps to "re-educate" millions of muslims
now does this. We can also take note of the comments welcoming it, and ponder
those. But again, that's mostly homework, we don't have the culture capable of
doing this as a "community" apparently. That's a "flamewar" or whatever. We
don't like growing pains, so we won't grow, that is pretty much settled.

~~~
dang
The boundaries are not nearly as arbitrary as you imply. They are determined
by what the community has the capacity to discuss while remaining within the
site guidelines. If we did it any other way, HN would destroy itself.

~~~
PavlovsCat
> what the community has the capacity to discuss while remaining within the
> site guidelines

Which is arbitrarily decided on a case by case basis. It seems stuff just gets
flagged off the front page by users, and sometimes it has the [flagged] thing,
sometimes it doesn't.

People can already hide topics from the front page for themselves, and
blissfully ignore them. What is the point of flagging things, are there limits
or can people just flag until you arbitrarily take that ability away, where is
the accountability? How is taking away the ability of others to speak
altogether _better_ than the _possibility_ of some cussing or other things
that are harmful to good faith communication?

It may be harder for people to remain civil around lethally serious subjects,
but it's not impossible -- and it's not fair to punish everybody, to let
random people punish everybody, because you predict what would happen
otherwise. It's like a stone that keeps tigers away, on steroids even:

> If we did it any other way, HN would destroy itself.

Any other way? That "way" is still a black box. So this is a super tight rope,
and left and right is utter destruction? What does "destroy itself" mean, that
the server would vanish? Or that it would "bleed" from one topic into another,
and suddenly people are also more irate about wiggly lines?

And of course, if you actually believe that claim, then you can't even make
_any_ changes, you can't try it out, because then HN would destroy itself. How
perfectly circular.

How do you know the opposite isn't true, that if things are arbitrarily
suppressed, it leads to a bad atmosphere and grudges, and people get tempted
to bring up a topic when it's not actually the topic?

~~~
dang
I'm not sure I understand the grievance here. HN is not all kinds of website,
it's just one kind of website. Its mandate is defined by
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html),
most importantly the bit about intellectual curiosity. Everything else more or
less follows from that.

Flamewars destroy intellectual curiosity, so we have to moderate them. If we
didn't, they would grow until they consumed everything. That would drive away
the users who are here for curiosity. That's what I meant about the site
destroying itself.

Curiosity as a motivation on the internet is vulnerable—it doesn't scale. That
forces us to intervene in various ways, some of which appear arbitrary at
times, if only because providing full explanations of every case would take
lifetimes. But people are always welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and ask
for clarification. What we can't do is not intervene at all and just surrender
to internet default, because that would be giving up on the site mandate.

------
coliveira
I see that the growth of China is driving Americans nuts, and they are trying
to manufacture all kinds of ridiculous reasons to hate the Chinese, and not
disclose that their reason number one is envy. The situation of religion in
China is much better nowadays than it was ever before. A few decades ago the
Chinese government would incarcerate anyone who propagated religion in the
country, and nowadays must religions can be practiced as long as they orderly
register with the government. The fact that a big newspaper complains about
this issue after many years of progress shows that they are trying to feed the
ideas of religious bigots in America who claim persecution daily, while trying
themselves to persecute the ideas that they don't agree with. I find this
completely appalling.

~~~
okatsu
I dunno, the South China Morning Post reported on China essentially phasing
out Islam [1], and that's on top of their ethnic cleansing with the Uyghur.

1: [https://m.scmp.com/news/china/policies-
politics/article/2145...](https://m.scmp.com/news/china/policies-
politics/article/2145939/how-china-trying-impose-islam-chinese-
characteristics)

