
Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips - Cbasedlifeform
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/18/style/seasonal-tips-cash-free-payments.html
======
betterunix2
Maybe we should not have tips? There is no actual need or advantage to giving
people tips, and there are plenty of countries where tipping is not common
(including some where cash is still favored over electronic payments). Why not
just pay people a fair wage that they can live on?

~~~
Sangermaine
Because that would cost the companies more and they're happy to get away with
paying less. It's really not a mystery.

~~~
jhpankow
I wish there was a list of Bay Area restaurants that don't require tipping. I
discovered one last Friday and look forward to returning for the good food,
service, and fair wages.

~~~
santaclaus
I recently went to Homestead in Oakland, which includes tips. The service was
top notch, despite what the include-the-tip naysayers claim will happen.

~~~
bunderbunder
I'm impressed by the pervasiveness of the belief that people won't, for the
most part, try to do good work simply for the sake of taking pride in their
work. It's such a remarkably pessimistic way to regard other people.

~~~
ggg9990
Or, just to keep their job! I don't take pride in my work but I make good
money and I don't want to risk my job. so I do fairly high quality work.

------
45h34jh53k4j
Its time to pay people a living wage, and stop the tipping culture. I hate
carrying cash, and It bothers me that I have to carry $1 bills for the tipping
extortion.

Im resentful that I have to pay for things as well as bribe the workers. Its
disgusting.

~~~
amyjess
> I hate carrying cash, and It bothers me that I have to carry $1 bills for
> the tipping extortion.

I don't carry cash either, but I just tip with a credit card. If you don't
accept tips with card, you don't get tipped. 90% of the time, there's a tip
line on the credit card receipt.

But I do agree that we need to increase wages and kill tipping culture.

~~~
s0rce
That doesn't help the people that this article is about, like doormen.

------
arafa
Tipping is often associated with both corruption and racism:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/09/05/study...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/09/05/study-
countries-with-more-tipping-are-more-corrupt/)

[http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...](http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1030&context=articles)

I have actually almost entirely stopped using Uber after they made tipping
part of the app. I've worked in a place with tipping, and my experience
directly corroborates those links.

~~~
Simon_says
Tipping is part of Uber now? That was what I liked about it! Did they at least
lower the base rate to compensate?

~~~
45h34jh53k4j
its more expensive than ever. i refuse to tip via uber (of course I get
downvoted by the driver due to tip extortion). Screw uber!

~~~
gamblor956
You can't get downvoted by drivers for refusing to tip. They don't find out if
you tipped until after they've rated you, unless you actually tell them, "I'm
not tipping you."

~~~
Hydraulix989
Some drivers still ask for cash tips ("Uber takes a cut if you tip in the
app").

------
taoistextremist
A lot of these jobs that they're bemoaning the loss of tips for, also aren't
all that necessary. If establishments want to give off the impression they're
upper class, they ought to pay these "professions" considerably more
considering they obviously have the money. Otherwise, opening doors and
operating elevators are things I'm content to do on my own.

~~~
jedberg
The ostensible purpose of the doorman is to add a layer of security. Someone
who is always there watching, looking for people who don't belong, receiving
packages and securing them, etc. They are basically a crime deterrent.

So is the elevator operator to an extent (although that one is really more
just for impression of being fancy).

~~~
taoistextremist
>Someone who is always there watching, looking for people who don't belong,
receiving packages and securing them, etc.

Isn't that the job of a receptionist? They should definitely be getting paid
more if these are all their responsibility.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Isn't that the job of a receptionist?

Not typically, though a receptionist in a place without a doorman or might do
some or all of them.

------
omg_ketchup
Is it really worth tipping someone to open a door or press a button in an
elevator? I never understood the need for this position, let alone why anyone
would ever tip them.

~~~
opencl
There are plenty of older buildings with manual elevators (as in direct
control of the motor), and they're a bit tricky to line up with the platform
accurately. I regularly visit two buildings with such elevators and only one
has an operator on staff. If people are being paid to 'operate' modern
automatic elevators it is indeed quite silly though.

------
Yetanfou
The 'cashless society' is starting to show another dark side here in Sweden in
that several banks have started to close accounts for organisations [1] which
don't "agree to the bank's ethical foundation" (the Swedish word is
"Värdegrund" [2]). While there still are banks willing to take these
organisations as customers this is a development in the wrong direction. It
does not matter whether you agree with the "ethical foundation" these "banned"
organisations have, the important fact is that they operate within the bounds
of the law of the land. This used to be the deciding factor to separate 'good'
from 'bad', legal from illegal, allowed from disallowed. Cash does not care
about politics, it is - by law - as valid for a communist as it is for a
priest or a libertarian. This currently does not go for the services provided
by banks to enable transactions in a cashless society as can be seen by the
Swedish example; there is no compulsion for those banks to take up anyone or
any organisation as a customer. In a polarised society like Sweden where the
pressure to abide by the "ethical foundation" is very strong this leads to
extra-judicial sentences on those who do not abide by or agree to those
ethical foundations.

Had those organisations been shunned because of their stance on, say,
religion, those banks would be accused of discrimination. Discrimination based
on political orientation however is currently not protected by law. If the
"cashless society" is to succeed this probably will have to change, doing
anything else will only lead to even more segregation where "left-wing"
financial institutions refuse to do business with "right-wing" customers.

In short, in a land ruled by law it is the law which should be the boundary
between what is allowed and disallowed. As long as an individual or an
organisations abides by the law their ideological standpoint should be
irrelevant to financial service companies.

[1] [http://www.friatider.se/nordea-st-nger-ner-nationalisters-
ko...](http://www.friatider.se/nordea-st-nger-ner-nationalisters-konton-kan-
ej-motivera-varf-r-och-l-gger-p-luren)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4rdegrund](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4rdegrund)

~~~
fernandopj
If only there was a way for society to go cashless, but not to rely on central
authorities to decide who has money and who doesn't... Oh, wait.

Joke aside, you just described why blockchain ideologists hope the future will
be a global, decentralized system. So no one can unilaterally deny access to
your money.

~~~
tuna-piano
Correct me if I’m wrong, but by design block chain is also non-anonymous. So
if you want to, say, give money to Donald Trump, everyone could know you gave
money to Donald Trump.

------
greggarious
_Do_ people not carry cash?

Maybe the types who have an apartment with a doorman in Manhattan don't. But I
(a "millenial") often go to bars and restaurants that are cash only.

Eventually, I found it was easier keep budget my "entertainment" in cash.
Visually being able to see how much I have, how much I'm taking out helps.
Being able to see that amount grow if I'm frugal one month feels good too.

I have friends who claim they get value from "points". But unless you're
working towards a spending minimum for a sign up bonus, I've found the amount
you make (2-5%) from using your credit card is less than the savings from
thinking critically about which cash purchases to make.

~~~
lazerpants
Anecdotally, New Yorkers (of all varieties) carry some cash most of the time.
There are just too many places that do not accept cards in NYC for people to
go cashless. My friends in Denver and LA almost never seem to have cash, and
are always surprised that it is a problem when they visit NYC.

~~~
Androider
New Yorker here, I can't really think of any place that doesn't take cards.
Some bodegas have minimums, e.g. $5 or $10, but even those are rare and I
typically pay for everything by card and carry no cash.

~~~
lazerpants
Off the top of my head I can think of: JG Melon (1 Michelin Star), Grimaldis,
Tile Bar, McSorleys, Alta, Lil Frankies, Peter Luger (1 Michelin Star),
Artichoke Basilles.

Plus at least 2 more restaurants in my neighborhood that I like and are
somewhat popular with tourists. And my barber. Really, it just comes down to
the fact that I never know if I'll end up somewhere that doesn't take cards,
so I prefer to have it. The bodegas where I work are also serious sticklers
for the $10 credit card minimums.

------
atonse
This is the kind of reason I hate tipping culture: I never knew that you were
supposed to tip the Elevator Man.

Now, I've only encountered an elevator man once in my life in the US. But
still. It never occurred to me that he should be tipped.

And that's my main problem, the ambiguity. There's no consistency in who
should get tipped and how much is a decent amount. And that kind of opaqueness
always hurts everyone involved but a few lucky ones.

~~~
acchow
And the guy in the bathroom handing out paper towels. What if my wallet is in
my jacket at my table?

------
Glyptodon
I'm reminded of a family friend telling me a story about how last year they
were on day trip somewhere and a power outage happened to occur in whatever
one-shop town out in the boondocks they were visiting and only one old Grandma
had cash to pay for a drink or snack while the power was out, everyone else
basically had to starve through lunch waiting for the power to come back on.

~~~
Simon_says
That's on the business. I used to be a cashier, and during power outages, we
had an old carbon copier that we could use to copy credit cards and note the
amount, and then enter it in manually later. You lose the instant
approve/deny, but we'd also copy ids.

~~~
lazerpants
How did you copy licenses if the power was out?

~~~
omg_ketchup
> we had an old carbon copier that we could use

You know, the kind where you slide the thing across and you don't have to plug
it in?

~~~
jessaustin
That takes an impression from a credit card (although I see more and more that
don't have raised lettering) but not from an ID.

~~~
Domenic_S
The impression isn't strictly necessary -- it's for convenience and, if
needed, solid proof the physical card was there. At most you write down the
license number on the carbon paper. If you lose the machine you can hand-write
the card number just as easily.

Think about how an online transaction works -- punch in the number, no ID
needed. Believe it or not that didn't _start_ online ;)

Source: took "offline" payments when a retail store's power went down many
many years ago.

------
jedberg
I've had this problem from the other side. I haven't been to the bank to
withdraw cash in years. Usually I got all the cash I needed by splitting bills
with friends, where I paid on the card and got cash, or Chinese New Year
money.

But since having kids (and the invention of Venmo and its ilk), we've stopped
going out with friends and splitting checks and when we do it's all digital,
and now I have to _give_ the New Year money instead of get it.

We have a house cleaner every couple of weeks that I like to tip, and lately
it's been a struggle to find cash lying around for the tip. Also when I get a
haircut they give a big discount for cash, and that's been a struggle too.
Like the girl in the article, I just forget to go to the cash machine, it's
not a priority until the time comes.

I may have to visit the ATM for the first time in a few years this holiday
season to give holiday tips.

~~~
tzahola
>Also when I get a haircut they give a big discount for cash

“discount” ;) Nice euphemism for tax evasion.

~~~
bootcampjs
Potentially, although do remember that card processing fees are rather high
for small businesses, and every transaction that they don’t have to lose 3% or
5% of or whatever is extra money they can keep.

~~~
lotsofpulp
Unless jedberg is referring to a 3% discount as a big discount, then I think
it's quite obvious that it's due to tax evasion, which would allow the
merchant to provide deeper discounts. This is common in cash businesses.

~~~
jedberg
Well it's $12 instead of $15, so 20% off. But keep in mind that for a small
merchant, besides the 3% processing fee, there is also a base fee, and when
you talk about a haircut for $15, the base fee eats up a whole lot of the
profit.

~~~
sushid
The standard maximum rate is 2.9% + 30 cents. Looks like they're losing over
$2 per transaction for doing business in cash, unless, they make us for this
_cough_ somehow.

------
empath75
I've noticed a big drop in panhandlers in cities, recently. Nobody even _has_
cash any more. I wonder what they've been doing instead?

~~~
jedberg
I hope it's because services for them have picked up, funded by both public
money and private (digital) donations.

But I suspect the real answer is something closer to "starving and dying". :(

~~~
acdanger
I'm aware of donations through apps like GoFundMe, but does there exist any
services for making digital donations to homeless people I might encounter on
the street? I've thought about how the lack of cash is affecting these people,
quite a lot but haven't encountered any solutions.

~~~
jpindar
Gift cards? Coffee shops and such have low denomination ones.

~~~
jedberg
The problem with that is a lot of those stores will kick the homeless person
out. We used to buy meals for homeless people on the street when we were
getting fast food in college. Oftentimes they were afraid to come into the
McDonalds with us, even though we were taking them in, because they had been
kicked out in the past. There's no way they would have gone in to use a gift
card.

------
EADGBE
A lot of the arguments for getting away from tips are for servers.

There's already a solution in place to handle cashless tips for them. They
aren't responsible for the transaction fee a lot of processors pass onto the
gig economy. It works relatively well, even in the event of loss of internet
or power.

The laws of averages work out for an average server, I worked for 5 years in
the restaurant industry and two years of that was 100% waiting tables. I
averaged $24-$26K between those two years in two different states and 4
different cities. Both of those states are at the US minimum wage of $2.13/hr
(for restaurant waiters).

I worked about 30-40 hours a week. We're talking ~$12-$13/hr average. It's was
definitely much better than any minimum wage position I could have had.

Anecdotally, the servers I knew who complained most about the wage were also
the least responsible ones with their money. We worked at a restaurant that
gave you your tips at the end of the night and to many peers, the urge to
spend that cold hard cash was too strong. Those responsible but just underpaid
were underpaid either way; they still could usually keep it together at
$12-$13/hr, still a good wage for someone relatively just getting started
career-wise.

Whatever wage you made from the $2.13/hr usually just covered your taxes. Most
of my deposited paychecks were less than $10 every other week.

I know that this isn't what other countries do, but it _does_ work and keeps
most families and individuals out of the poverty level. The requirements for
work are relatively undemanding and most people who want a job serving get a
job serving.

------
unethical_ban
When I was a kid, we tipped the postal worker and several other "service
workers" that didn't need it the way food service does. It's just a nice eway
of saying "thank you for your work". The purely logical among you will say
"That's what a wage is for" but that's not the point. Kind of like how I don't
get Christmas gift because I can't afford socks.

~~~
yardie
And that is fine as long as there is no obligation. But most American
restaurants if you don’t tip to the formula they treat you like you’re robbbng
them.

~~~
exhilaration
Things are different in America - restaurants get a special exemption under
labor law [1] that allows them to pay wait staff about 25% of the minimum wage
required for all other professions. The social understanding is that patrons
are obligated to make up the difference via tips - you have to pay to use
their services.

The system sucks but that's how it is, if you don't want to tip then you can
always eat at McDonalds or other establishments without wait staff.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_Stat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States)

~~~
Mediterraneo10
> The system sucks but that's how it is, if you don't want to tip then you can
> always eat at McDonalds or other establishments without wait staff.

Or you can simply eat at that establishment and not leave a tip.

~~~
unethical_ban
So in the name of changing labor laws, we should cause tens of thousands of
people to lose their jobs, effectively. For something like that to work, labor
and consumers would have to be on the same page, and do something like a
national week of no tipping, which would still hurt only the workers, not the
businesses.

This needs to happen in Congress.

------
code_duck
I’m bothered by the need to carry cash just for tips, kind of like how
quarters function solely as special magic tokens for parking meters.
Starbucks, for instance, does not have tipping activated on their electronic
check out… Who knows why? I tip with every coffee I get, except when I’m
unable to because of payment technology.

~~~
cardiffspaceman
If you pay Starbucks with their stored-value card linked to their phone app
you can tip with it. If you enable notifications from the app you can get a
reminder to enter the app and check off the tip amount. You also have 2 hours
to change the tip.

------
millzlane
There is no way we will rid this society of tips. People will need to be paid
more to compensate. And not many capitalist want to to give more and earn
less. I was just in New York yesterday. Upon seeing the doormen dressed like
the guy in Home Alone, I realized that there are people who still want you
dressed in a monkey suit for no logical reason. I doubt they're willing to pay
them more. I'm certain someone can make the doorman a device that will allow
them to easily receive tips via chip card. I've seen boy scouts who use
stripe.

On a side note do we even need door men?

~~~
lazerpants
>On a side note do we even need door men?

At my buddy's old place in Brooklyn the security door for the building broke.
It had been broken for about 24 hours before my friend discovered a prostitute
giving a john a BJ in the stairwell.

Doormen keep prostitutes from giving BJs in your stairwell, among other
things.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>Doormen keep prostitutes from giving BJs in your stairwell, among other
things.

I don't mind having to step over a dude getting a blowie in the stairwell if
it saves the Chinese food delivery guy from having to stand in the cold and
saves me from having to put on a jacket to go get my Chinese food.

Stuff like prostitution and drug dealers would only be 10% of the problem they
are if people would stop being bothered by them out of habit.

------
unixhero
Yeah tipping sucks.

In Northern Europe it's it something we do. Unless we want to.

------
raverbashing
Most of the places where I paid with card and added a tip they checked the tip
value, took it out of the register and added it to the tip jar

------
perseusprime11
Maybe we should have an app that allows us to give tips easily? I am still
dreaming of a true mobile wallet, maybe Apple Pay

