
Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t? - SREinSF
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/your-money/financial-security-envy.html
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brenden2
What’s with the recent stream of low quality NYT articles? This reads like the
author recently discovered Mr. Money Mustache and decided to publish some
blogspam. There is 0 new information.

~~~
brenden2
Suggestion for mods: replace NYT link with original:
[https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-
forum/the-'...](https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-
forum/the-'everybody-seems-wealthy'-illusion-is-it-really-just-all-fueled-by-
debt/)

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kaffeemitsahne
> _Not only do people want to play down their inherited wealth or money from
> family “but they actively try to hide it,” Mr. Conley said. “We have this
> ideology of individualism and worshiping of the self-made man or woman.”_

I have almost exactly the opposite mentality w.r.t. this scenario. I was
always taught to not talk about money because it will only lead to problems,
strife, envy etc.. (not that I'm rich or from a rich family but there's always
people on both sides of you money-wise).

~~~
trophycase
I think a lot of it too is that if you have money, people feel entitled to
your time and money because you have it.

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awat
I felt this when I joined a sales org as a Sales Engineer. I felt like I was
making a healthy salary but couldn’t believe the cars I was seeing driven by
the reps I supported. Until one day I had a conversation about it with a few
of them and found out they do everything in terms of payments. As in can I
afford the payment with no concern about what that costs in interest etc. Eye
opening experience.

~~~
sokoloff
There’s a school of thought that when hiring commissioned salespeople, that
you want to hire the ones who have a large monthly outflow they need to cover
every month.

~~~
Sebguer
[https://www.saastr.com/your-1-sales-rep-should-be-driving-
an...](https://www.saastr.com/your-1-sales-rep-should-be-driving-
an-m6-convertible-and-not-buying-a-panerai-watch/)

Embodied with all the expected toxicity in this article.

~~~
awat
Yikes. That’s pretty much the reason I left the org I was referring to.

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simonblack
'Image' versus Reality.

Some people are more concerned with displaying 'Image' than whether or not
they can keep up with Reality.

This has been historically the difference between 'Old Wealth' and the
'Nouveau Riche'. The Nouveau Riche mentality is that if you have it, you must
flaunt it ostentatiously. The people whose families have been wealthy for
generations very often don't show it at all, or maybe they have some things
that are 'very good' but 'old'. (To take that to its logical conclusion, think
"a 40-year-old Rolls Royce".)

My sister always looks like she wouldn't have two cents to rub together, but
she keeps several million dollars stashed away so that all of her (4) kids
could be given a million bucks at any time if necessary. Note that if she can
give it to one child, then she feels she should give it to all four as a
matter of 'fairness'. Then again she has three houses, all set up with
clothing and furniture and appliances, so that she just has to arrive and
everything is available for her immediately.

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aklemm
How can we get young people a better concept of money and wealth quantities
and trajectories?

I remember having the light bulb go off for me—previously I had zero clue and
tried not to worry about—that most of those around me doing very well around
age thirty had had help with a house down payment and their college costs. So
the difference was simply they had the nut to get into home ownership and they
didn’t have a monthly student loan.

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ars
Save you time: "When people seem to be able to afford much more than their
income would suggest, it’s often because there is hidden wealth or hidden
debt."

Then some extra stuff to try to make people feel bad for having wealth.

~~~
mc32
What else can one think? Either people have money to buy the things they buy
or they don't and they borrow. I guess a few could be in illegal businesses or
maybe has a sugar-daddy/momma. It's like saying, that customer who just bought
a lottery ticket either wins or won't win. Yeah, I guess so.

~~~
ip26
_What else can one think?_

You could be wondering if you're getting cheated on your salary.

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WalterBright
> Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?

In debt over their eyeballs?

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abrichr
Mirror to avoid paywall: [https://archive.is/ve4mL](https://archive.is/ve4mL)

~~~
NullPrefix
Mirror to avoid paywall: disable javascript

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ryanSrich
I don’t really get the point of this article.

If you know how much someone makes, then you can deduce relatively quickly
that they are either a.) in serious amounts of debt, or b.) have some other
form of income that you aren’t aware of.

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bane
I remember when I first started dating my wife, I encountered a number of
people she knew from the same immigrant community (South Korean) who were
driving expensive cars and living in nice houses despite working fairly low-
end jobs. I asked her about it and she explained that basically these folks
were either:

a) up to their eyeballs in debt with no savings of any kind

b) involved in some kind of "scam"

c) were being floated by rich relatives or friends somewhere else, but the
story there was complicated

My wife has always been very frugal so I found this curious, but she explained
that having a "rich" appearance was very important in the tight night social
community that most South Koreans found themselves in. These three versions of
what was happening were often occurring at the same time. An example true
story:

A person she knew, despite working two jobs as a cashier at a grocery and a
dry cleaners, owned an expensive house and drove around in a luxury SUV. This
person took payment, in part or in full as cash and often simply didn't pay
taxes. At church, they'd chat up friends looking for business opportunities.
When one was finally spotted (an investment opportunity), it was realized they
didn't have any cash to participate. They then convinced a close friend to
loan them basically their life savings upon which the investment was made with
"a few percent" skimmed off the top as a finders fee to purchase a few luxury
goods to keep the game going. There were multiple investors, and eventually
somebody ended up stealing somebody else's identity, drained their bank
account and fled the country. The investment ended up buying a large inventory
of very poorly made products that were unsalable and it failed. The person she
knew ended up with no serious money lost and just moved on to the next strike-
it-rich plan.

The house was mortgaged under somebody else's identity who had good credit and
income as a "favor". The main floor was furnished elegantly for parties and
after church activities, the rest of the house was entirely devoid of
furniture. The SUV was a car they bought from a mechanic friend after it had
been totaled by the previous owner and had new bodywork and some engine work
done at extreme discount -- it barely ran day-to-day.

This wasn't a rare story. It seemed to pervade a large portion of the
community and everybody was inexplicably blind to it, and fell for the same
money-lending, identity theft scams over and over again.

When the Russell Crowe movie "Cinderella Man" came out, there's a scene where
his manager, played by Paul Giamatti, is confronted by the main character's
wife at his apartment. It's revealed that the apartment, and fancy lifestyle
are all a display to give him credibility.
[https://youtu.be/e4fb7N_ICj0](https://youtu.be/e4fb7N_ICj0)

It was then that I really understood what the success signaling and veblen
goods in my wife's immigrant community was all about.

~~~
oceanghost
I've seen this in the Persian community as well. I was dating a Persian woman
and she was telling me how proud of her brother she was-- he had become a bank
vice president and bought a home (at the absolute height of the first housing
crisis, think 500k condo in Anaheim), and even purchased a Nissan GT-R (100k
give or take). Eventually, it got out that he was making 80k, which I was
making a multiple of and wouldn't even CONSIDER these extravagances.

I also have several Persian friends who seem to piss away money like it's not
a thing, but that's the most egregious example. Still, love them to death :)

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raven105x
Why is this a thing? My total, all-encompassing expenses are less than 15% of
my income annually and I have zero debt. I rent a modest apartment because I
am in my 20s & the loss on rent is, for now, less than the would-be loss of
property taxes + HOA + home loan interest. I drive a nine year old Prius I
bought when I was 18 - and I know that statistically everyone my age driving a
luxury vehicle is either in debt, has outside income, or simply out-performed
me financially - all of which are okay. This is just a youthful and
inexperienced opinion, but it sure as hell seems like the root of the issue is
not income inequality, or social theory, or any other problem requiring a
solution but our national obsession of not minding our own business since
people aren't at peace with themselves.

Mind you, these are sentient, presumably self-aware, humans doing this - this
isn't the behavior of a bot in a game, but actual people. Yikes

~~~
AgentOrange1234
You sound like you’re managing things very well, and I don’t want to discount
that in any way.

I do suspect your income is relatively quite high. Where I’m at, a modest
apartment alone is more than 20% of any 20-something’s average income.

~~~
onlyrealcuzzo
Right. I make $360k a year, and just living in a decent apartment already eats
up 24% of my after tax income. Sure, if I had roommates and lived in a basic
apartment, I could cut that down to 12%. Point being, it's hard to get by on
only another 3%, and I'm making pretty okay money...

~~~
raven105x
We are at roughly the same compensation. If you save 60k a year vs 120k a
year, the time it takes to own a house is cut in half, the rent and interest
bleed stops twice as fast.

Now you're saving 180k a year by reducing bleed even though your expenses are
the same, etc etc. Compound finance is a helluva drug

~~~
mettamage
Heck, if you save 120K per year and work for 2 years, you can basically retire
to places like Thailand and live like a king.

~~~
onlyrealcuzzo
On $250k in investments, you could only sustainably withdraw $10k per year.
That's not even $1k per month. That's upper middle class in Thialand, which is
not exactly kingly.

~~~
brewdad
Yeah but you're living like upper middle class in Thailand at age 24 with no
responsibilities in OP's scenario.

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m0zg
How can they afford a NyTimes subscription?
[https://web.archive.org/web/20191108011522/https://www.nytim...](https://web.archive.org/web/20191108011522/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/your-
money/financial-security-envy.html)

~~~
javagram
NYTimes subscription is $10/month through the iOS app... it’s not exactly in
the same ballpark as even a single vacation :-)

~~~
hu3
"it's just $X/mo"

That's the mentality that often gets people into debt.

~~~
javagram
Budget monthly if you have that trouble, I run a monthly surplus without
issues. $120 a year for news is not that much and is cheaper than paper
newspapers used to be.

(Edit: obviously, yes, if you cant afford it don’t buy it. News is a luxury
too, just a much cheaper one. The only things people actually need are food,
transportation, housing, &c.)

~~~
m0zg
Paradoxically, the reason why I can afford things is because I don't buy shit
I don't need just because it's "$120 a year" and "not that much". It does add
up. And then it also compounds. As a rule, I try to avoid buying things with
zero (or negative as in the case of NYTimes) residual value.

~~~
javagram
That’s your decision. Go for it if it’s what you need for your financial
situation.

My only point was that it wasn’t the same type of spending described in the
article.

