
ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field - daegloe
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/30/sports/espn-ed-cunningham-football-concussions.html
======
kpwags
Good for him.

I stopped following football after watching League of Denial on PBS. If I'm at
the bar or something and it happens to be on, I might passively watch it, but
I haven't sought it out since. I just can't support the NFL.

I do feel torn though because I love hockey. I know they're dealing with
similar controversies. My justification, however flimsy it might be is that I
don't like the fighting (I might be in a minority, but I'd have no issue if
the NHL eliminates fighting altogether), and the big hits aren't why I
watch...I enjoy the stick work, the dangling and skills getting to the net. I
can also appreciate that the NHL does seem to be doing a better job at
cracking down on the dirty hits.

I also play hockey (in a non-check beer league) and am very aware about the
risks. I'm also an adult who is old and mature enough to accept these risks. I
don't know how much that can be said for the elementary/middle/high school
kids playing sports like hockey and football.

~~~
BearGoesChirp
>I just can't support the NFL.

I'm not sure what the NFL does that's wrong. Their players get significant
fame, are consenting adults, and get pay checks that many would trade even
more of their health for. It is the college level, and especially the high
school level, that I see the major problems at. When you have kids, or even
people who aren't paid, risking their health it crosses a significant line. If
college players were paid, and if playing below 18 (or even 16) was banned, it
wouldn't be a big problem for me.

Edit: As someone else pointed out, the suppressing information is wrong. I
wasn't considering that side of things.

~~~
yequalsx
Would you be OK allowing two consenting adults to fight to the death for pay?
Most people would not be for allowing this. A lot of people are willing to
work in very risky environments because they feel they have no alternative.
Should companies be allowed to have dangerous work environments because there
are people desperate enough to be willing to work in them?

~~~
dsacco
_> Would you be OK allowing two consenting adults to fight to the death for
pay?_

Given that scenario as stated? Sure, I'm all for it. Take away the gloves in
boxing and we're pretty close to that.

I'd be concerned about the negative incentives that could potentially exploit
lower income people, but on its own I don't have a problem with it.

I personally wouldn't do it, and I don't think I'd enjoy watching it, but I'm
of the opinion that:

1\. If it occurs a lot, there is a market for it,

2\. Given a market for it, we should explore allowing and heavily regulating
it, including negative externalities, rather than banning it and pushing it to
a black market.

~~~
darrenf
AIUI bare knuckle boxing is less dangerous than the big time stuff. Gloves
protect the boxer doing the punching from breaking their fingers/hands,
enabling them to do more damage to their opponents. You ain't punching a skull
with your bare knuckles and hurting the other party much.

~~~
dsacco
Ah, my mistake I suppose. I understood bare knuckle boxing is dangerous for
the hands, but I also believed it was dangerous for the other party.

------
abraae
Speaking as someone from a rugby-playing nation, where mostly players wear no
protection except mouthguards and shin pads, American Football is spectacular
but insane.

Wearing protective helmets just ups the ante as players launch into each other
with full force. In rugby, you don't tackle someone like that as you'll hurt
yourself, and fail to stop the opponent.

Rugby is a plenty violent sport, and has its own health issues, but the lack
of protective helmets and body armour (and rules preventing tackling without
using your arms) means that attacking players think about their own safety
before launching ridiculously high impact hits on each other.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F6POhAbAhE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F6POhAbAhE)

~~~
komali2
This is how I feel about boxing vs MMA.

Boxing gloves are huge and massively padded, meaning you take hit after hit
after hit, bouncing your brain around like a ball. MMA gloves are only padded
enough to maybe prevent you from breaking your knuckles, and maybe prevent
your knuckles from breaking someone's jaw. If you threw the kind of punches
people throw in boxing with MMA gloves on, you'd wreck your hands.

That one is safer than the other has been discussed before:

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mixed-martial-arts-
safer...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mixed-martial-arts-safer-than-
boxing-study_us_563ce23be4b0411d3070c8d6)

[https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/20/science/which-is-more-
dan...](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/20/science/which-is-more-dangerous-
mma-or-boxing.html?mcubz=1)

~~~
athenot
Of course, that's for classic boxing. I train muay thai and you're also liable
to get a shin/knee/ankle/elbow from your opponent, and there's zero padding
there.

However, as someone else commented, there are some crucial differences with
football:

\- there's no injury unless it's an actual fight. Sparring is intentionally
toned down, because the sport is not about the power but agility and speed.
Those can be practiced with minimal danger (of course there are always
exceptions and accidents);

\- there's the benefit of transparency. Hits may be heavier but are fewer and
much farther apart than the repeated hits in football which may go unnoticed.

~~~
stevenwoo
I could be mistaken but I thought a few concussions was enough to cause brain
damage, once you get to three there's a marked increase in permanent,
measureable damage in most people, if one is under 25, it doesn't take as
much.

~~~
jaggederest
Any concussion is by definition a brain injury. Any brain injury is, by
definition, damage to the brain. And we know that brain damage has an
uncertain prognosis - it may or may not ever heal in any meaningful way, and
might even get worse over time.

People handwaving around how much worse it gets under x or y circumstance just
don't like the way the math adds up: brain injury is cumulative and
progressive regardless of severity, age, repetition, or any other factor.

------
pwthornton
Football's core problem is still denial that this is an issue. Until that
happens, real, concrete steps won't be taken to address it. Here are a few
suggestions:

1) No tackle football before a certain age (to be determined by scientists
based on brain development and how damaging a concussion would be). You can
learn a ton about football, running routes, learning plays, getting in shape,
etc. without hitting people.

2) Ban hitting. Everything should be a wrap around tackle. No more players
running full speed and launching themselves into other players. Look at how
few players actually try to tackle people.

3). Put padding on the outside of helmets and maybe shoulder pads. Current
helmets are not doing nearly a good enough job of slowing down energy. They
are designed to protect against fractures, but future football equipment
should be designed to slow down impacts.

4) Make neutral zone a few yards long. Much of the worst blows happen to
linemen who fire off into each other, particularly on running plays. While big
hits get the most notice, it is actually those who are suffering routine head
blows that are at the most risk.

5) Ban the quarterback sneak and any other similar play where linemen dive
into each other in short yardage situations.

6) Ban players for unsafe hits. 15-yard penalties are not nearly enough for
something that could cause someone to die very young.

7) Ban players for PEDs. Steroids and HGH permanently alter your physiology.
PEDs are making players unnaturally big, strong and fast. Suspensions are not
enough, because even if a player stops doing them, he may have made himself
unnaturally big, strong and fast.

8) Allow defensive backs to hand check and other ways of playing defense that
don't revolve around big hits. The passing game has exploded in the NFL,
partly because it's so hard to defend against receivers. Receivers get more
separation these days. Allowing hand checking closes separation and would
limit the amount of passing.

~~~
koolba
> 1) No tackle football before a certain age (to be determined by scientists
> based on brain development and how damaging a concussion would be). You can
> learn a ton about football, running routes, learning plays, getting in
> shape, etc. without hitting people.

Good luck enforcing this with kids. We played flag football in school but full
tackle with zero supervision after school in the park.

> 2) Ban hitting. Everything should be a wrap around tackle. No more players
> running full speed and launching themselves into other players. Look at how
> few players actually try to tackle people.

I get what you're going after but it's tricky when you're dealing with the
boundaries. How do you push a guy out of bounds without "hitting" him?

> 3). Put padding on the outside of helmets and maybe shoulder pads. Current
> helmets are not doing nearly a good enough job of slowing down energy. They
> are designed to protect against fractures, but future football equipment
> should be designed to slow down impacts.

I see no issue with this. If it's proven to be safer than I'm sure people
would switch to it. Maybe pitch it to Riddell.

> 4) Make neutral zone a few yards long. Much of the worst blows happen to
> linemen who fire off into each other, particularly on running plays. While
> big hits get the most notice, it is actually those who are suffering routine
> head blows that are at the most risk.

This would substantially change the mechanics of the game. I'm not sure if it
would be more or less fun but it's be a wildly different game. Imagine the
difference a speed player would have if there's an added 3-5 yard gap between
the starting lines.

> 5) Ban the quarterback sneak and any other similar play where linemen dive
> into each other in short yardage situations.

The end zone plays would be different indeed. Also, no more superman shots of
Cam.

> 6) Ban players for unsafe hits. 15-yard penalties are not nearly enough for
> something that could cause someone to die very young.

+1

It should be immediate and permanent if it's intentional. Accidental unsafe
hits should result in an ejection . Bonus points if the crowd boos the player
who committed the hit.

> 7) Ban players for PEDs. Steroids and HGH permanently alter your physiology.
> PEDs are making players unnaturally big, strong and fast. Suspensions are
> not enough, because even if a player stops doing them, he may have made
> himself unnaturally big, strong and fast.

+1

I find it hilarious that doping doesn't result in permanent bans.

> 8) Allow defensive backs to hand check and other ways of playing defense
> that don't revolve around big hits. The passing game has exploded in the
> NFL, partly because it's so hard to defend against receivers. Receivers get
> more separation these days. Allowing hand checking closes separation and
> would limit the amount of passing.

I have to think this one through further. It's hard to imagine a situation
where you can take down a power running back that doesn't involve _something_
like a hit. The truly power RBs are like tanks and the site of one dragging
multiple defense players into the end zone is an amazing site.

~~~
baddox
> Good luck enforcing this with kids. We played flag football in school but
> full tackle with zero supervision after school in the park.

Sure, kids will sometimes hurt each other just horsing around too. I think the
idea here is for sanctioned children's leagues and school teams to not allow
tackling.

~~~
WesleyLivesay
This also comes back to the pads and helmets. If you watch kids playing full
tackle on a playground the actions are very different than when they are lined
up with 20 pounds of gear on. Kids are going to tee off with their heads when
it is going to hurt like hell.

------
addicted
It's become increasingly difficult for me to watch football as well. I really
enjoy the sport, but the research is pretty unforgiving.

I can still justify watching the NFL because the players are getting paid very
well, and at least at this point are aware of the risks.

But it is impossible for me to justify watching college anymore. I was always
leary of the billion dollar contracts conferences were signing, while severely
punishing the players for accepting a jersey from a relative (and at the same
time refusing to ban coaches who systematically engaged in illegal
activities). But throw in the brain trauma stuff and it's impossible to excuse
an academic institution doing this anymore (especially since they also get tax
benefits as well).

~~~
eropple
The NFL doesn't exist without the legions of unpaid, bodies-broken, brain-
scrambled college ( _and high school_ ) athletes who get nothing for their
troubles.

~~~
criley2
I would argue that the NCAA stands in the way of a true professional minor
system similar to Baseball.

NFL doesn't prevent the minors from existing, NCAA does.

~~~
eropple
You can argue that, but it's not particularly true or relevant. The NCAA is
the recruiting pipeline because the NFL wants it to be. No other reason. If
it's not the recruiting pipeline, it's relegated to obscurity and general
irrelevance--see NCAA hockey for an example. The NCAA is still a monstrously
shitty organization, but don't try to excuse the NHL because of it--not least
because minor leagues _still_ don't solve the problem that high schools and
colleges, too, profit from breaking the bodies and the brains of their
athletes as they hope to make it to the NFL. The NFL is the goal, and everyone
else profits from young athletes destroying themselves to try to get there.

Football is intrinsically dangerous as a sport, intrinsically exploitative as
a business at each and every level, and intrinsically immoral to watch or
support in a way that no other American sport, not even hockey, can manage.

------
JumpCrisscross
I recently caught up with an old acquaintance. We interned together many years
ago. He was on the college football team then, and quite proud of it. It
hasn't been that long; he isn't that old. Yet at the end of a lunch (at which
we had nothing to drink) he forgot _four times in a row_ that we had already
paid the cheque. He complained of a recent lay-off. He believes he was
targeted for forgetting appointments and missing details. This shocked me--he
used to have a far better memory than I did.

Maybe I'm overfitting. But I can't help but imagine that if his school, one of
the top in our country, hadn't let him destroy himself under their watch, we'd
still have a sharp, productive young man with us.

~~~
jjuel
For every one of those there are others who are still functioning at a very
high level. I played in Junior High, High School, and a couple years in
college. I have yet to see any ill effects. The problem with the science
behind it is they never take other factors into account. Who knows if someone
had some genetic cause that may have exacerbated the effects of hits in
football.

~~~
freehunter
>The problem with the science behind it is they never take other factors into
account.

Yeah you know science, never controlling for other factors.

------
6stringmerc
Personally, I applaud his candor and backing it up by leaving association with
the sport as we know it. I have shared the change of mentality from "Oh wow!"
big-hit, Bill Romanowski/Ronnie Lott type viciousness to, well, cringing. Not
to shy away from MMA or Boxing or Hockey - trauma is trauma - but the change
feels like something I've witnessed in my lifetime.

With a personal twist, I've never been able to play due to handicap, and now,
decades later, some who did play are suffering effects similar to my injuries.
It's uncanny how brutal that sport actually can be to the body - especially
young, growing bodies and minds. I don't like watching rock heroes of mine
dying, nor sports heroes like Junior Seau - but they can help change culture.
When people won't let their kids play a sport, its days are numbered, save for
some communities that will probably see it as a ticket out for a long time.

Oh, I almost forgot my idea/essay I put forward a while ago about re-
engineering the equipment for the modern physics of the athleticism (speed +
force):

[https://thelacesout.com/how-us-football-can-improve-
player-s...](https://thelacesout.com/how-us-football-can-improve-player-
safety-entertainment-via-technology-40fb97757e01)

~~~
Jesus_Jones
I'm about in the same position. As a middle aged guy, the past 10 years I have
watched more and more nfl football, and I'm becoming increasingly leary. I
hate seeing a big hit. Take that part out and I can continue to watch. But
it's hard to see how they can take the hitting out, it's such a part of the
game.

~~~
dpeck
Big hits in general aren't what is causing the long term injury. CTE seems to
disproportionately effect linemen that seldom experience a "big hit" but
hundreds of small impacts every day during practice and play.

The brain injury is most concerning, rules can adjust and technology gets
better to mitigate the larger impacts, and outside of outlier catastrophic
events I think many who have played will trade worn out joints and broken
fingers for the experience of playing the greatest of team sports at the sub
division 1* level but the mental harm is something entirely different and
seems unlikely to be able to be fixed with it being anything like the gridiron
football that's been played to this point.

*Caveat on level because D1 and above you're making all sorts of sacrifices and trade offs that aren't something those outside of it can appreciate or even understand.

~~~
fish_fan
Right, even a ball to the head can cause CTE. It almost seems like playing
with heavy padding, helmets, etc has caused more injuries by encouraging
players to deal and take this small injuries.

------
kejaed
An investigative piece was released yesterday from the Hamilton Spectator in
Ontario where McMaster University researchers studied the brains of 20 living
former Canadian Football League players. It didn't turn out particularly well.

"Study shows ‘disastrous’ damage in brains of retired CFL players"
[http://3downnation.com/2017/08/30/study-shows-disastrous-
dam...](http://3downnation.com/2017/08/30/study-shows-disastrous-damage-
brains-retired-cfl-players/)

~~~
jjuel
I didn't see anywhere if these were just randomly selected players or players
who volunteered because they thought something was wrong.

I know there was another study where they found a shockingly high percentage
of the people studied had issues. However, in that study it was all volunteers
who suspected something was wrong. Well that doesn't mean that high of a
percentage of players actually have issues just the ones who suspect issues
actually have issues. The studies need a little more work before I believe
that every person playing football has a brain worse than a non-football
player.

~~~
code_duck
I'm sure you could find that if you found the study rather than an article
about it (though I'm not sure if there is a scientific journal paper attached
to this or where or how it will be published). The article says they compared
to "healthy control subjects of similar ages". Presumably, what they are
controlling the for is the occupation of being a football player, since that
is the entire point of the study. Also this part

"Noseworthy was asked if there’s any chance the players’ results aren’t
connected to football.

“No, this is football,” he said. “That’s the common denominator.”"

------
Balgair
There seems to be a lot of comments about the dangers and how many people will
not play nor let their friends and family play football again. I thought I
should chime in.

I have had 3 major concussions in my lifetime where I blacked-out for some
period of time, maybe, not counting the other ones where I did not lose
consciousness or notice the hits as badly. I still love those contact sports
but have quit them too.

I'll detail some of the issues that I had with concussions and what it felt
like to have them (names and places have been changed to protect the
guilty/innocent). I only played rugby in college and wrestled in HS, so my
experiences with concussions are not football related. However, I think you
should read this article first before going on into the wall of text below as
that writer is much better than I am:

[http://www.gq.com/story/the-concussion-diaries-high-
school-f...](http://www.gq.com/story/the-concussion-diaries-high-school-
football-cte)

So, I guess that’s what happened to me too. Zac’s issues with body image, his
sleeping problems, the drug addictions and the dependency. These are the
reasons that I don’t ever mess with stuff. Because I know that I will end up
like Zac, and that’ll just make it all so much worse. It all fits for me.
Yeah, the good little scientist in me says that there can be a million and one
reasons why that is all crap, genetics, development, those little flies to be
batted about in your mind, annoying you. That self-doubt of a mosquito. But
yeah, it all fits. Occams razor and all that jazz.

~~~
Balgair
One was in high school when a wrestling-mate punched me in the back of the
head with his elbow while I was down. We were doing drills in the Mulituse
room, the one next to the band rooms, on the mats. I was wearing an ungodly
amount of clothes to cut weight. It was near the end of practice. I was
sprawled out on the mat and my partner's job was to not let me up and make a 1
point escape. I just sat there until I could see a move out, as he was a much
better wrestler than I was. He tried everything including putting his finger
up my butt, a favorite move of his that I had expected I would have to endure,
to get me to move at all so he could get a move to make. Near the end of the
drill session, and I didn’t anticipate this, he just got on top of me and
slammed his elbow into the back of my head, as he was so frustrated, and just
said ‘Fuck you /u/Balgair!’. Thing is about these concussions, you remember
weird things, and not all of it. I usually remembered the first few seconds to
minutes afterwards, but then blanks fill it all out, like a floater in your
eye, but in your mind. Not static, just, Nothing, and not even emotions too,
just calmness at the nothingness. I hope that is what death is like, that it
is calm too. So I remembered the first few seconds after the hit. I now know
that it was a concussion, it didn’t hurt at all. In fact the only sensation I
remember is a chill shiver all the way from my crown of my head down into my
lower back, taking about 3 seconds to complete. I don’t remember if I could
hear or see or talk in those seconds. Just that shiver of warmth and chill all
at once. Then I remember that we were doing spawrl drills, all of us boys in
all those sweat pants and sweaters. I remember in that sodium orange arc-lamp
lighting of the room, "John" yelling at us to do thing, as he was the student-
leader that day. I remember trying to do the drills, and then not being able
to. I remember that John was yelling at us all and then yelling at me to do
it. And I remember the shame that I felt when John made us do more because I
wasn’t doing them up to John's standards. I think we had to do another 1/3rd
more. Then it all just goes blank.

I think I have written about this before, but memory is hard. I’ll tell it
again though, as another witnessing is probably good too as I don’t think that
all the stories will match up 100%. The other time was actually with John too.
I think we both got concussions real bad that day. John is a goofy foot. So,
when we were doing pipe drills, he was falling the other way from most of the
people next to him, like me. A pipe drill is when the other guy has your leg
between his legs and has his arms wrapped around your thigh. Then that guys
tries to take you down to the mat and pin you. So, typically, you use leverage
and then try to swing the guy you are holding onto down. You go to the same
side usually, as the foot you are holding, so if you hold the right leg, you
then will swing the guy towards that side, so he falls on his back to the
right side. Now, John being a lefty, had the opposite led being held, and that
meant that he fell to the left and not the right like everyone else. That
meant he fell into me. Specifically on this particular drill, his head fell
into my head. I only remember the sound that it made, like a pulse of
lightening. Just a really low, loud, crack. Maybe like a sheet of metal being
thrown into a flat-bed. Then it’s just vignettes, or gifs, loops in my memory
that I, to this day, just space out inside of. The chronology is shaky now,
again, just different, files?, in my mind that are near that time period. You
can put them in whatever order you want. I remember having my head in my hand,
face down, I don’t know if I was sitting or standing, I was the one that was
screaming, but I wasn’t telling myself to scream. I was listening to my voice
scream, I wasn’t in control of myself, maybe my amygdala was, who knows. I
don’t remember any sights or feelings outside of my hands and face and my
hearing. Just numb otherwise. I remember sitting in the littler back room, I
was back on the wall and legs bent upwards. I remember my fingers tingling
really bad, like if you let them fall asleep on you for a hour. I remember
spots in my vision, all purple and yellow, blue and brown, like a tye-dye
shirt. Again, I felt like I was not me, like I was just watching a movie in
theater of my eyes and my hands were these gloves of tingle sensations over
whomever was remembering these things. I remember telling Coach about all
this, like I wasn’t me, and he said ‘Get over it.’ It was so mean, so hateful,
but I was numb and not talking, someone else was being talked to and doing the
talking. I remember, really vaguely, the other coaches whispering, but I had
no sight then. I knew they were talking about me and John, but I’ll never know
what they said. I remember telling Coach I wanted to go to the nurse, who was
literally the next door down from us, again, no vision in this memory. I
remember Coach relenting and sounding exasperated, and I remember tasting
vomit but not knowing if it was me or what had happened or why I tasted vomit,
I remember finding it interesting that I tasted vomit and nothing more than
interest. I remember the trainer, she was a smaller Asian woman, in a blue
windbreaker and a white shirt, her black hair pulled back into a pony-tail.
She was very tired of talking to me, like we had been talking for a while. She
was looking up at Coach, so that means I must have been seated, though I don’t
remember feeling like I was. There were noises of people playing and thumping
basketballs in the other rooms. I remember she said to Coach ‘he has to go to
a hospital’ and that Coach was angry about that, not concerned or worried, but
just angry that I had to leave and that I got to skip out on practice, like
that I should be punished for this whole affair, not that I should be going to
a hospital and be treated like a baby. I remember pulling up to the hospital,
in the darkness, the lights were shining up onto the hospital from lights in
the ground, giving it a strange glow. I do not remember who drove me there or
anything about the hospital at all in any way. I remember going out, some days
later, to a Mexican place near Orinda. All I remember was walking into that
place with Mom and Dad, but not my siblings. I remember telling myself that I
was not going to eat anything so that I could cut weight. I remember a really
big sombrero on the wall outside the place. I remember telling Mom years later
that I don’t even remember that week or much of that month. I lost 25lbs in
water weight later that week in order to make weight for a tournament. I
failed at that, but that is yet another story.

~~~
Balgair
The last one that I remember is the one in rugby at college. We were doing
takedown drills and I was to tackle one of the guys and he was trying to break
through and score a try. I came at him and wrapped him up, and I think that he
then used his elbow to try and drive me away. This time, again, he hit me on
the crown of my head. There was that familiar shiver of warmth and chill that
went down my spine for ~3 seconds. It was raining that day, lightly, and the
field was totally mud. I got up after a bit from the blow. I was ready and in
line with the guys to go at it again. Bob, the volunteer coach for the club,
was trying to give directions on another iteration of the drill. He asked if
there were any questions. I was still out of breath from the drills, and I
asked him a question. But I didn’t have anything to say, all I knew was that I
had to ask a question. I think a word salad came out of my mouth, that it was
filled with stones or something. Bob looked at me like I was pulling his leg,
like indignation at such a stunt. I again tried to say something, repeat
myself through the huffs. Then I remember just falling down into the sloshy
grey-brown mud , my arms at my sides, and just vomiting over and over and over
just dry heaving in the middle of everyone and ruining the drill. I remember
later, maybe 5 minutes?, one of the older and faster guys sitting me down in
the try-zone and asking me who the president was (Bush). I still couldn’t talk
right. I was shivering, but I wasn’t cold. They tried to cheer me up, saying
it wasn’t that bad of a hit, that it only counts as a concussion if you get
knocked out. It made someone feel better, but that person was again not me, I
was just watching impassively, as someone else in my head marionetted me
about. I remember that I talked to my room-mate's neurosurgeon father on the
phone. He said not to fall asleep for a day, or I would die. I was really
tired though and slept anyways.

I still miss those sports, incredibly so. I miss the hitting, the drills, the
camaraderie. I miss the parties and the fraternity of other men. No where else
in life have I had those kinds of close friendships, that brotherhood really.
The price is these kinds of concussions and injuries. But, if you are looking
at it from the outside, I want to tell you that I walked away because I found
the price too high. Other 'brothers' of mine, guys whose back I had, they did
not walk away and they are doing alright, in our own ways. Still, I want to
say that though the price of those sports and that friendship was these types
of injuries, it was still a very hard decision for me. If I could have a magic
pill that would take even one concussion away from me, give me one more
chance, I'd be back on those fields and on those mats in a heartbeat. It's not
that easy to explain, but at least one person on HN really would trade a
concussion for one more blow of the whistle.

------
koolba
I love watching football and each year I look forward to the start of football
season. It's amazing game to watch and when played by great players,
exceedingly entertaining and exciting.

I'm not blind to the research about what it does to the players brains but my
reaction is the reverse of what I'm reading from most in this thread: _I 'm
watching more football than ever_.

I think it's only a matter of time till the game is either neutered to
nothingness or banned entirely and I selfishly want to enjoy every last minute
that I can. There's a sibling comment referring to as "America's gladiator
sport". I think that's particularly apt. Deep down we feel dirty watching it
but we also don't want to turn it off.

~~~
WesleyLivesay
I think in general more people would be okay with it as "America's gladiator
sport" if people were not starting to play it at the age of 12.

------
TheMagicHorsey
What about the sponsorship of daredevil sports like free climbing, wing suits,
etc., by consumer companies like GoPro and Redbull.

I feel that we are supporting these companies with our purchases, and then
they in turn create social media spectacles by giving these people an
incentive to do dangerous stunts. Recently a wingsuit daredevil died while
livestreaming on Facebook, watched by his young daughter and wife. It was a
horrific event. Of course, his broken body was festooned with the banners of
various energy drinks and other bullshit.

What a wonderful time we live in. Are we not all entertained?

~~~
habosa
The risk profile is entirely different. When you go jump off a cliff you're
saying "there's an x% chance I will die right now" but there's no chance that
you die slowly 20 years later after surviving the jump. So it's much more fair
to ask the jumper to evaluate the risk.

Playing football is a slow killer. After years and years of hits you may get
serious brain damage. But there was no one particular moment, no single play,
that you should have avoided. It's the sport as a whole.

~~~
QuotedForTruth
Also even though Red Bull and other sponsors are making money off other's
risk, they aren't actively trying to suppress and hide that info like it seems
the NFL has been doing for years regarding concussion risk.

~~~
cpsempek
I agree with you point, but assume the NFL does admit fault and revise their
position to be aligned with medical findings. Does watching the sport make is
any more or less moral. I do not think so. You are right, the NFL is being
dishonest and irresponsible, but viewing the sport is an act separated
entirely from this fact.

~~~
QuotedForTruth
I'm not sure what you are arguing. People watching doesn't make it any more or
less moral, no.

People or organizations profiting off the risky behavior of others is
potentially immoral. IMO a large part of why its either moral or not is in the
participant's knowledge of the risk. If the group profiting on the other's
risk is actively seeking to hide the risk then it is definitely immoral.

------
CalChris
My cousin played O line for Missouri. He loves football and I love my cuz.
He's a college ref and was NFL chain crew for the Rams. I can't talk to him
about this. Total denial. He's even mad that parents are voting with their
feet by not sending their children into Pop Warner leagues.

~~~
scruple
I come from a CFB family, of sorts. My brother was special teams for a D1
school. One of my cousins was a DE for Clemson. Another two cousins played
ball for a D3 school. This is all spanning from the mid 90s to the late 00s.

Of them, my brother and the two that played at the D3 school are still
hardcore CFB and NFL fans but they do openly discuss the CTE issues and are
not thrilled at the idea of their own children playing. My cousin who went to
Clemson, though, is still a hardcore fan and is in total denial. Out of the
four of them, he got the closest to going pro and I imagine that has something
to do with it.

------
SirensOfTitan
I grew up in Pittsburgh watching Steelers football. My dad died a couple years
ago and it helps me feel close to him. He played football in college at a D1
program, but luckily didn't incur any brain trauma and was incredibly sharp
until his last moments.

With that, I just can't stomach the damage this sport does to its players, all
while the NFL continues to try to sweep the issue under the rug. I think I
should stop watching and implicitly supporting this sport until something is
done.

And sure, players are probably aware of the damage they can do to themselves;
however, humans are bad at evaluating long term risks. I'd bet that many
players either consciously determine that 'it won't happen to them,' or they
ignore the risks in search of a big salary.

------
dmalvarado
“I don’t feel that my being part of covering the National Football League is
perpetuating danger,” (Al Michaels) said in a phone interview. “If it’s not
me, somebody else is going to do this."

Wow. The drug dealer's response.

------
rm_-rf_slash
Football is America's gladiator sport. For all the fun, the money, the
excitement, the money, the drama, the bombast, the cheerleaders, and even the
money, we should remind ourselves that American football is a very violent
sport rife with injury and long term disability, and our participation as
passive spectators and consumers makes us just as responsible for the
incentive structure that harms so many young men for the rest of their lives.

And yet we can't stop. Football is practically an addiction in this country,
and I don't think there is one serious proposal that could reduce the size and
scope of injuries and brain trauma in particular, and allows the game to
continue in its current familiar form. So we tuck the problem under the rug
and pretend it doesn't exist until moments of faux anguish pierce our veil of
doped-up depravity.

Sorry if this post comes across as depressing and masochistic. After all, I am
a Bills fan.

~~~
NegativeLatency
Is rugby safer? I'd actually be interested in watching rugby on tv. Never been
a fan of football due to all the stopping and setting up plays, makes the game
move too slowly to be interesting.

~~~
cmurf
The scrum is definitely not good, and is the main source of degenerative
spinal injuries. The bulk of other injuries are muscular (sprains, pulls) and
bruises. The rules of the game enforce a direction of play that makes head on
attacks far less (maybe even none) likely than American football. But it's
still a brutal sport with lasting repetitive use injuries - they just don't
tend to be head injuries as much.

------
tunesmith
I feel like I've seen another slow switch, in that injury news is being
emphasized more. I'm not sure that the rate of injury is climbing, but it
seems like the tone of press coverage is increasing. I also wonder how much of
a season's outcome can be attributed to injury luck. Like am I basically
watching a tournament that is more about when what injury will happen to who,
than it is about actual skill, strategy, and tactics?

------
frankydp
I am patiently waiting for the first bellwether Ivy league school to drop
football with brain injury being the reason. I think the demise of college and
then professional football would cascade after that, still a decade or two but
it would be inevitable and possibly faster than people expect.

~~~
heartbreak
Yale cutting football has 0 chance whatsoever of convincing a single SEC
school to cut football. The SEC would be around sponsoring football even if
every other conference was shuttered.

Edit: Okay maybe Vanderbilt would leave.

~~~
frankydp
I agree.

But, I was mostly suggesting that the social pressure that would result from
the Ivy schools dropping for cause would snowball. The effects may be the most
obvious at the lowest age groups, even more than now. I think that wave of
decisions to not play or allow play, would march right up the recruiting
pipeline.

I am in the Southeast and my county has no Middle school football, already.
The only feeders for HS ball in my area is private leagues.

------
bkohlmann
“And you’re going to have to make a decision about which direction you want to
go.” He raised his hand and pointed. “If you go that way you can be somebody.
You will have to make compromises and you will have to turn your back on your
friends. But you will be a member of the club and you will get promoted and
you will get good assignments.” Then Boyd raised his other hand and pointed
another direction. “Or you can go that way and you can do something —
something for your country and for your Air Force and for yourself. If you
decide you want to do something, you may not get promoted and you may not get
the good assignments and you certainly will not be a favorite of your
superiors. But you won’t have to compromise yourself. You will be true to your
friends and to yourself. And your work might make a difference. To be somebody
or to do something. In life there is often a roll call. That’s when you will
have to make a decision. To be or to do? Which way will you go?” -Robert
Coram, The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War

------
brandonmenc
Switch to rugby-style tackling (like the Seahawks), get rid of facemasks (per
Ditka), maybe introduce per-position weight limits, get rid of kickoffs, tweak
the other rules a bit, and we can probably keep the game mostly intact and
reduce concussions.

They'll never be fully eliminated, though. In any sport.

~~~
Goronmon
And if the worst damage comes from positions like lineman and linebackers
repeatedly hitting their heads on every down during the course of normal play,
how do any of those changes fix that problem?

~~~
brandonmenc
> tweak the other rules a bit

Forced rotations, etc.

------
dogruck
I think the headline is much stronger than the story. Cunningham's
professional life is still deeply intertwined with football:

> At first, Cunningham told ESPN executives that he was leaving to spend more
> time with his sons, ages 3 and 5, and because of his workload as a film and
> television producer. He was a producer for “Undefeated,” a documentary about
> an urban high school football team, and has a string of projects lined up.

I'd guess the truth is closer to "he decided to leave ESPN for several
reasons, and his concerns over the brain damage was one of those reasons --
but not the biggest reason."

~~~
ethmarch
“Those are two of the issues,” Cunningham said. He waited weeks before he
revealed the third. “The big one was my ethical concerns.”

~~~
lern_too_spel
The confusing part for me is his continued involvement in a documentary that
glorifies the sport. As far as abetting the brain injury entertainment
industry, that participation seems little different from his former announcer
participation.

------
chasd00
Big hits and injuries aren't new to American Football. Some of hardest hits
ever, as judged by other players, can only be seen in old black and white
footage. After a lifetime of being front and center to the game he's only now
walking away?

If any analyst, or anyone, should be walking away from a sport it should be
boxing. In boxing giving your opponent a concussion and rendering them
unconscious is a decisive victory and the most important statistic for
ranking.

------
technologyvault
As much as I loved playing football and now love watching, the risk/reward
balance seems to be moving so much towards too much risk.

The backup plan for my five boys, for now, is to have them become really solid
kickers so they can be part of the sport without having the risk of head,
neck, knee, and other injuries I've had to deal with over the years.

------
at-fates-hands
The documentary on PBS? That just opened a lot of eyes to the dangers of
concussions.

You know who else is at an incredibly high risk? Guys who skateboard and do
freestyle BMX:

[http://www.espn.com/action/story/_/id/15614274/bmx-legend-
da...](http://www.espn.com/action/story/_/id/15614274/bmx-legend-dave-mirra-
diagnosed-cte)

Doctors say late BMX legend Dave Mirra had CTE

 _BMX icon Dave Mirra, who died in February, suffered from the type of chronic
brain damage that has shown up in the brains of dozens of football players, a
University of Toronto neuropathologist has concluded. Multiple
neuropathologists confirmed the diagnosis._

Now think of all the skateboarders who DO NOT ride with helmets and eat shit
on the pavement all the time. It's only a matter of time before that industry
is awash in guys who have CTE.

Football and hockey? Just the tip of the iceberg man. . . .

------
kendallpark
It's become increasingly popular to dismiss football as this barbaric,
gladiatorial sport. Maybe it is. But it's a damn fun one.

The problem with football is that people love football. Not just watching
football, but _playing_ football. I played for seven years, had three
surgeries, and no doubt dropped some IQ points rattling my skull on the line.
If I could go back in time, _I 'd do it all over again_.

We need to do something to save this sport. I don't really care if the NFL
dies or if the NCAA loses its cash cow. I don't care about losing football as
entertainment. I want my kids to also have the opportunity to play the sport I
love and I want it to be safer for them.

------
johan_larson
Boxing used to be one of the top US sports early in the 20th century. But it
faded away, mostly. In the same way, football could start fading away. There
are already some early signs, with parents starting to push their kids toward
flag football rather than tackle.

[http://www.cracked.com/blog/i-quit-watching-nfl-and-why-
you-...](http://www.cracked.com/blog/i-quit-watching-nfl-and-why-you-will-
too/)

------
vcool07
Just out of curiosity, if the sport is so violent/unsafe for kids, why not ban
it for under 18 players ? Or is it that, only a small subsection of the
american population find it violent/unsafe and the rest are completely fine
with it ? I find it difficult to understand how parents could allow their
children to play a sport knowing it might cause permanent brain damage to
his/her kid. Maybe we're missing something in this debate ?

------
alistproducer2
I'm in my second year of not watching/supporting the NFL for just this reason.
Add the that the treatment of Colin Kaepernick and I'm not sure I'll look
back. I'd be lying if I said I won't watch the super bowl, but my days of
watching endless hours and going to games are likely over unless and until
they make the players take off that ridiculous armor.

~~~
DanCarvajal
Same here, fall now has so much more time for activities!

------
nvusuvu
I, too, experienced this. But following football in the South is a quasi-
religion and you can get ostracized for being a non-believer.

------
harry8
The NFL is going to be sued out of existence. There'll be a replacement league
with different rules focusing on player protection in the aftermath.

It will take a long time because football holds such a key place in the
culture that it continues to be largely exempt from negligence law but when
the tide turns it will be a tsunami.

------
jimjimjim
Other parts of the world change the rules of their 'person holding ball and
running' games to make them safer for players.

Rubgy union, rugby league, aussie rules. All have had rule changes over the
years to make them safer.

And these are in countries with universal health care and without a 'sue
everybody' culture.

------
lasermike026
REDESIGN THE SPORT! Geewiz, everyone is standing around with their mouths
open. Change the rules and goals of the game to get the desired results.

The problem with football is too many concussions. Stop concussions and save
the game.

~~~
lasermike026
Here's a start.

[http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2015/12/we-should-radically-
chan...](http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2015/12/we-should-radically-change-the-
way-we-play-football.html)

------
Havoc
Repeated hits to the head are not good for the head after all. Surprise!

------
MBCook
I honestly don't understand how football is still legal. I know it's popular
but how can you see the evidence we've found and think people should still be
allowed to play?

------
samdung
This article is about american football. Not the actual 'foot'ball.

~~~
umanwizard
No shit. It's an article in an American publication; it stands to reason that
it'd be written in American English.

------
ben_jones
We need to acknowledge as a society that we're ok with young men giving
themselves brain trauma for our enjoyment. That's the truth. Denying it,
pretending like we care or that it disgusts us, is just furthering the
problem. In aggregate (US citizens) have spoken.

------
JustSomeNobody
I don't watch football for three reasons:

1) The focus on "hitting" instead of proper tackling.

2) The encouragement of obesity for linemen.

3) It's morphed into some sort of live action video game with graphics and
sound effects.

It used to be fun to watch, but now I just worry about the future of all the
players and can't watch it.

