
Crazy new Swedish bill makes sharing music and TV as bad a “crime” as manslaughter - finnn
https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2018/02/crazy-new-swedish-bill-makes-sharing-music-bad-crime-manslaughter-yes-really/
======
blunte
I don't know Swedish law, but I will guess that like American law, any
parliament/house member can introduce basically any bill saying anything.
Presumably the bill will not pass if it's terrible and the other members are
sane/not-corrupt. So the presence of this bill is unfortunate, but I doubt it
would get passed.

The money in politics problem has been increasing in much of the development
world, so we have seen corporate interest laws pushed and often passed. The US
of course is one of the worst offenders of this, and unfortunately this
corporate-government system has been spreading to Europe and Scandinavia.

Fortunately for the world, the current US political circus has finally become
so absurd that the global corporate right wing spread has slowed (based on
elections in the last year). Maybe it will reverse once thinking populations
finally realize the outcomes of the non-public-serving policies that their
corrupt politicians have been pushing.

Yes this all sounds a bit dramatic, but there really aren't other adequate
words to describe the direction of politics in the last 20-30 years. It really
has been a problem of corporate money in politics, and it snuck up on "the
people". But eventually the results begin to show, whether by excessive gun
violence, increasing financial deficits (think "Kansas/Brownback"), perpetual
wars, increasing first world poverty, etc. The absurdity reaches a point where
it impacts enough of the comfortable people that they start caring what their
politicians are actually doing, and then you start seeing big turnovers and
upheavals as we're starting to see in US states now.

~~~
rotorblade
> I don't know Swedish law, but I will guess that like American law, any
> parliament/house member can introduce basically any bill saying anything.

So this "bill" is the result of an investigation started by the government.
The investigation concludes (document posted by me elsewhere in this thread
(in Swedish)) that it would be appropriate to change the law, and what the
"bill" should look like.

Have not found the stage of the bill yet, the suggestion for a bill in the
final document of the investigation is what I found so far.

The investigation appears to have been performed by people from various
instances; governmental, academic, and industry. Only one person from
industry; "Film och TV-branschens Samarbetskommitté", whose role was
"sakkunnig"/subject expert.

~~~
blunte
Ok, that's interesting then. That suggests that the typical Swedish person
feels that sharing copyrighted content is a heinous crime, on par with
homicide.

Do you think that's accurate?

Why would the average person feel so strongly negative about this topic?

~~~
Legogris
Swede chiming in here. No. The typical Swede feels that it's one of the less
serious crimes there is. Under speeding, far under DUI, under possession of
drugs for personal use, maybe on par with parking violation.

We had quite a movement for digital freedom about a decade ago when the Pirate
Party was on the rise and there was opposition against surveillance from FRA
(Swedish equivalent of NSA), but the average person doesn't care and I think
even the previous activists have been in a state of fatigue and silent
acceptance for years now.

~~~
Feniks
I would imagine that Swedish politicians are also vulnerable from lobbying and
US diplomatic pressure.

~~~
Legogris
Indeed. Antipiratbyrån (The Anti-Piracy Bureau) was a lobby organization
representing copyright holders in films and computer games until 2011. They
surveilled people, breaching privacy laws but got exempted in court because it
was done for a good cause. Infiltrated a Swedish ISP, tracked down filesharers
online and took them to court and influenced the political debate a lot.

I don't have any illusion of lobbying and diplomatic pressure having lessened
since.

~~~
acct1771
> got exempted in court because it was done for a good cause.

Wow...as described here, your legal system sounds...useless.

~~~
rotorblade
It is very bad indeed.

1\. The judge in the pirate bay case was a member of an organisation "Svenska
föreningen för upphovsrätt"/"The Swedish Organisation for Copyright" (my own
translation), and it was decided not to be partial to the pirate bay case. See
for example [0].

2\. Even if there were diplomatic pressures on Sweden from the US (which there
were [1], their actual impact is what is in question), it should be impossible
for a minister to influence the police directly [2]. Which makes for the
pirate bay take down to be a ridiculous coincidence.

3\. Sweden allows lawyers with their own, so called, "intellectual property"
interests to defend suspects of file-sharing. See for example [3] which do
give credit for this lawyer doing a good job, but just in principle this seems
absurd (imo). I hope he is not allowed to be the defence lawyer if it is his
own material at least.

[0] (Swedish, summary in English) [https://lup.lub.lu.se/student-
papers/search/publication/3800...](https://lup.lub.lu.se/student-
papers/search/publication/3800778)

[1] [https://torrentfreak.com/how-the-us-pushed-sweden-to-take-
do...](https://torrentfreak.com/how-the-us-pushed-sweden-to-take-down-the-
pirate-bay-171212/)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministerstyre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministerstyre)

[3] (Swedish)
[https://overklass.wordpress.com/tag/fildelning/](https://overklass.wordpress.com/tag/fildelning/)

------
INTPenis
I'm not surprised when I see on swedish news how a pedophile gets 3-4 years
for molesting hundreds of children and a bank robber gets 5-8 years for not
hurting a single person but stealing millions.

It's a long standing dark gag here that financial crime is being treated much
worse than violent crime.

~~~
namaemuta
“Do you understand what I'm saying?" shouted Moist. "You can't just go around
killing people!"

"Why Not? You Do." The golem lowered his arm.

"What?" snapped Moist. "I do not! Who told you that?"

"I Worked It Out. You Have Killed Two Point Three Three Eight People," said
the golem calmly.

"I have never laid a finger on anyone in my life, Mr Pump. I may be–– all the
things you know I am, but I am not a killer! I have never so much as drawn a
sword!"

"No, You Have Not. But You Have Stolen, Embezzled, Defrauded And Swindled
Without Discrimination, Mr Lipvig. You Have Ruined Businesses And Destroyed
Jobs. When Banks Fail, It Is Seldom Bankers Who Starve. Your Actions Have
Taken Money From Those Who Had Little Enough To Begin With. In A Myriad Small
Ways You Have Hastened The Deaths Of Many. You Do Not Know Them. You Did Not
See Them Bleed. But You Snatched Bread From Their Mouths And Tore Clothes From
Their Backs. For Sport, Mr Lipvig. For Sport. For The Joy Of The Game.”

― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

~~~
speedplane
It's far more nefarious to steal $1.00 from a million people than $1M from
one.

~~~
moccachino
Stealing $1.00 from a million people who won't miss it is more devious as
you're less likely to get caught and if you get caught people are less likely
to bother pursuing it.

But I think it is impossible to say one is objectively worse than the other.
It depends so much on how the crime affects people. If you steal a million
from a multi-billionaire, he might not even notice. If you scam a clueless
person out of a million that they got in debt to hand over to you, that will
ruin their life.

------
AnnoyingSwede
Comparing this to a bank-robbery doesn't really scale, being two completely
different crimes. However, this suggestion came at the same time as the
Swedish government suggested raised penalties for weapon crimes, meaning you
can get up to 4 years for carrying a automatic weapon/hand-grenade you are not
licensed for while you can receive a 6 year for providing copyrighted material
to the public. Common punishment for rape in Sweden is 1-2 years. It's clear
to me the Swedish government are not helping Hollywood in the best interest of
it's citizen's but due to lobbying from the film industry. Just my 5 cents.

------
some_account
Ever seen the movie Idiocracy? I feel like society is becoming more and more
like that. Laws like these are being passed and people are too numb to care.

~~~
jdietrich
The world of Idiocracy is a utopia. They're not only willing but _eager_ to
appoint the smartest man in the world to high office. President Camacho steps
aside as soon as he realises that there is someone better qualified to be
president. The movie shows a world that is deeply dysfunctional, but also
devoid of any signs of bigotry, hatred or totalitarianism. There are no death
camps, no migrations of starving people, no persecuted minority being
scapegoated for the food crisis. We should envy those happy idiots.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmZOZjHjT5E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmZOZjHjT5E)

------
sq_
Attempts at this type of legislation make me almost irrationally angry.

This is a quote from the article that the PIA post linked to (translated from
Swedish by Google so wording may be slightly off):

"Today there is an organized online piracy that has major consequences for the
whole community. Therefore, it is good that the punishment crimes for these
crimes have been overlooked as the sanction is proportional to the seriousness
of the crime"

I just fail to understand how someone causing a multi-million/billion dollar
media corporation to lose some money is a crime so serious that that person
should be imprisoned for up to six years.

~~~
kobrad
Are we still saying piracy loses money for somebody? Even after the EU paper
about it?

Why is it so hard to believe research?

[https://juliareda.eu/2017/09/secret-copyright-
infringement-s...](https://juliareda.eu/2017/09/secret-copyright-infringement-
study/)

~~~
speedplane
You cite a single article, which goes against the past two decades of
experience, where illegal downloads have decimated much of the entire music
industry.

~~~
scrumption
lmao, you sure know what you're talking about, the music industry is just in
tatters these days huh

~~~
speedplane
Have you compared it today with what it was circa 1995? Yes, it is in tatters.

~~~
scrumption
look, i get that you've gotten yourself into a career where you're adjacent to
the legal system so you have no ability to critically evaluate anything beyond
"it is/isn't legal therefore it is/isn't good" but if you try talking to a
young person you might realize the number of independent artists has been
exploding every year for a decade and we now have more people creating quality
music than ever before in the history of the world (more people per capita
than ever before as well, I'd wager). the ability to share and expose others
to these new artists faster and easier than ever before is what makes this
possible. sorry that no one cares that the big record labels and top 40s that
made all their money on CDs are losing ground to distribution methods that
aren't utterly unable to adapt to the industry's current landscape

~~~
speedplane
"we now have more people creating quality music than ever before in the
history of the world"

Where exactly are you getting this? I find it extremely unlikely, and I'd bet
the opposite. Just because it's now easier to discover artists, does not mean
that there are more of them. My position is based on the many former artists I
know who abandoned what they did b/c of the futility of being able to support
themselves.

But the issue is bigger than just creating the most amount of art. On a moral
level, an artist should have some ability to control how their art is
distributed. Just because it can be easy or free for others to enjoy it
doesn't mean that everyone is entitled to it.

~~~
KozmoNau7
_> "we now have more people creating quality music than ever before in the
history of the world"

Where exactly are you getting this? I find it extremely unlikely, and I'd bet
the opposite. Just because it's now easier to discover artists, does not mean
that there are more of them. My position is based on the many former artists I
know who abandoned what they did b/c of the futility of being able to support
themselves._

There are absolutely more bands now than ever before. In the olden days, you
needed a studio full of expensive gear, and sound engineers to work the gear.
You needed production facilities to press LPs/CDs and you needed distribution
and promotion deals to get your name out there and make something for people
to buy. All of this necessitated a big investment, so the concept of the
record deal was born, and the labels grew fat and happy, mostly because they
exploited the hell out of the struggling artists, with onerous contracts.

Even just being a garage musician was more expensive back then, as instruments
and gear used to cost a lot more than it does today.

Today everyone with a PC can record music inexpensively. Reaper is an
absolutely fantastic DAW and very fairly priced, and high quality audio
interfaces with good preamps can be had for a couple hundred dollars. That's
not to say that these people will produce anything of notable quality, but the
bar is so low now that basically anyone can give it a go.

For promotion, you can very successfully go by word of mouth on social media,
instead of relying on traditional promotion.

For distribution, it is easier now than every before. Anyone can create a
Bandcamp profile and upload their music. Bandcamp handles the layouts,
tagging, re-encoding and provides streamlined shopping, both for downloadable
tracks and for physical merchandise. Their terms are easy and uncomplicated,
there are no long confusing contracts, and they're extremely friendly and easy
to deal with, in my experience. They take a 15% cut, which reduces to 10% if
you sell over a certain amount per year:
[https://bandcamp.com/pricing](https://bandcamp.com/pricing)

 _> But the issue is bigger than just creating the most amount of art. On a
moral level, an artist should have some ability to control how their art is
distributed. Just because it can be easy or free for others to enjoy it
doesn't mean that everyone is entitled to it._

Yes, the artist should _absolutely_ have control over how their art is
distributed, which is why the big labels need to die, along with their onerous
contracts and manipulation.

------
rotorblade
This, [0], appears to be the conclusion of the investigation that resulted in
the bill, which contains a suggestion for a law.

[0] (Swedish) [http://www.sou.gov.se/wp-
content/uploads/2017/01/SOU-2018_6_...](http://www.sou.gov.se/wp-
content/uploads/2017/01/SOU-2018_6_webb.pdf)

------
brisance
This is frankly surprising to me. Didn’t the Pirate Party win seats in the
Swedish parliament? What happened to them?

~~~
SiempreViernes
They won seats in the EU parliament, but didn't manage to enter the national
parliament.

Since then their main issue has mostly died, the law allowing FRA to spy on
all our outgoing communications passed and the pirate bay people where taken
down. But there's not been much action about these issues since then, and as a
protest party option they are completely eclipsed by the racists.

~~~
chapill
Lesson learned: Don't mess with the copyright mafia.

They won America with DMCA. They're even beating computer nerds in Sweden. The
only win we've had lately is Trump killing the TPP. Thank goodness for that
man.

------
yuhong
Thinking about it, part of the reasons music labels got big is for economy of
scale when mass producing CDs for example. Of course, such economy of scale
was not needed anymore with the move to digital distribution. This didn't work
well with the current debt-based economy where shareholders depends on stocks
always going up for things like retirements and companies treat people as
"consumers" to be extracted from. I assume that Hollywood has similar
problems, right?

------
RickJWag
In a just world, any musician, actor or artist that 'steals' time from an
audience to espouse political opinions should be subject to unlimited free
file-sharing of their content.

Yes, I like that idea.

------
staticelf
As a swede, I am unfortunately not surprised. While we have a surge in violent
crimes mainly due to mass immigration this kind of shit gets pushed.

When I was young, explosions and gang criminality were extremely rare and
uncommon but today it is unfortunately being more common. I have several
friends, including me, that has been the victim of either threats or violence
in the recent years but the perpetrators always walks free due to our
incompetent police and justice system that doesn't even investigate even the
most obvious crimes where the perpetrator is known.

Some examples:

\- My uncle was beaten down and had to be in the hospital for tring to stop 3
people from stealing a bike. No further investigation.

\- I am/was being threatned several times by a guy, which I reported to the
police several times and they haven't even started to look at my case yet
(this was several months ago). I am very certain that the preliminary
investigation will be canceled.

\- Several sexual crimes towards children isn't even being investigated due to
"heavy work burden" [1]

The development is really pissing me off and I am even thinking about moving
from Sweden since I often times don't feel secure anymore. If this bill gets
through it is simply more proof how insane our politicians are. They don't
give any reason to believe that they even care the slightest about civilians
security, just the image of the country as a whole. This kind of legislation
will be used in the same way the drug policies are used, they increase the
statistics for the police to make it look like they solve a bunch of crimes
when in reality they do not solve most crimes of importance.

[1]:
[https://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=...](https://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fnyheteridag.se%2Fsexualbrott-
mot-barn-laggs-pa-hog-polisen-har-inte-resurser%2F&edit-text=&act=url)

~~~
dx034
> When I was young, explosions and gang criminality were extremely rare and
> uncommon

Are you sure about this? Crime has decreased significantly over the past
decades in most countries. I also can't remember any crime from when I was
young but my area was much more dangerous back then. But as a child, you don't
notice subtle signs of crime and won't get beaten up because you try to
prevent people from stealing a bike. And even if that happens to a family
member I'm not sure parents tell their children the truth. But asking your
parents won't help, memory is always biased, my memory of the area I lived in
as a student is also much better than it deserved.

More communication by social media has probably also played a role, it's much
easier to track crimes nowadays. But even where crimes were reported back then
it's really hard to compare that unless you use official statistics.

~~~
staticelf
Yes I am sure.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Swe...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Sweden)

[https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=1637&ar...](https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=1637&artikel=5925764)

[http://www.dagensjuridik.se/2017/09/sverige-i-topp-med-
antal...](http://www.dagensjuridik.se/2017/09/sverige-i-topp-med-antal-
skjutningar-svart-hitta-motsvarighet-i-andra-lander)

> In Germany [solved crimes involving shooting] they are close to 90 percent
> and in Finland more than 90 percent. In Sweden, as the firearm has
> increased, the level of clearance has also declined steadily since the late
> 90's.

But yeah, downvote me for stating facts.

