
What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician - mykowebhn
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/18/us/edray-goins-black-mathematicians.html
======
tyler-
People from poor demographics in general are discriminated against in various
ways.

Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re
probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math
courses beyond calculus.

Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your
growth is prematurely stunted.

That kid from a better off family that shows talent in math? Probably get
recognized for it from an early age and gets tutors and advanced training.
Probably already completed proof based courses in analysis, algebra by the
time they completed high school. They get into better schools and have ahead
start. Even if they are just as talented as you the poor kid.

~~~
stcredzero
_Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re
probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math
courses beyond calculus._

I've read and listened to a number of accounts about how _peers_ in poor
neighborhoods are the biggest barrier to academic achievement.

 _Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now
your growth is prematurely stunted._

Or worse, your peers punish you for your ability. In my personal experience,
they can even tell you that you are sexually inadequate and somehow less
essentially human. This feedback is all the worse, because it is genuinely
believed by the one giving it.

 _That kid from a better off family that shows talent in math? Probably get
recognized for it from an early age and gets tutors and advanced training.
Probably already completed proof based courses in analysis, algebra by the
time they completed high school. They get into better schools and have ahead
start. Even if they are just as talented as you the poor kid._

There are cultural contexts where children form groups and help each other and
offer moral support. Such social interaction seems to be attached to high
performance in just about every human endeavor where skill and knowledge are
important. One study found that Asian kids were very good at forming such peer
groups to study math, and that African American children were much more prone
to studying alone. Asian cultures are noteworthy, in that academic achievement
is prized even by the poorer segments of society, though I've also known
African Americans who are from families with such a subculture which prizes
knowledge and academic achievement.

~~~
tptacek
Hold on, let me catch up here: your poor-neighborhood peers tell you you're
"sexually inadequate" and therefore you go on to not be a mathematician? Can
you connect those dots for me?

~~~
stcredzero
_Hold on, let me catch up here: your poor-neighborhood peers tell you you 're
"sexually inadequate"_

No. My peers told me I was sexually inadequate and less than essentially
human. This was also mixed up with my having been molested be a peer in high
school. As a result, I was pretty much unable to have a relationship until my
late 20's, and even so it was hard to sustain a relationship long term for
many years beyond that. (I'm happily married now, however.)

Insults and gaslighting with regards to one's sexuality are a particularly
potent psychological weapon, and from what I've seen both as a direct
participant and as an observer, some people from poorer backgrounds will
actively punish those who are demonstrating academic excellence, or who are
cultivating themselves in some other fashion. Such people are likely just a
small percentage of the general populace. However, if one "sticks out" then
that small percentage tends to find you more easily.

------
lotaezenwa
This mathematician is not stupid. I would be inclined to believe he
understands statistics/anecdotes/academia better than you reading this right
now.

We only get a small glimpse into the intricacies of his world view and life,
and this is what he has chosen to share. This is the story he is telling.

Ask yourself why someone in this position would tell this story based on years
of lived experience. Do you believe him? Or do you believe keyboard warriors
in some of the comments under this article diminishing his perspective with
"but what about"-ism and the like?

I am black and studied math in school. The 'leaky pipeline' exists to some
extent. Racist people exist even if you, reading this, are not racist.

~~~
AlexTWithBeard
May I ask you a question?

Not for the sake of argument or anything - I'm genuinely curious.

Yes, racist people exist. No doubt here. As do exist many other nasties:
dishonest salesmen, stupid teachers, dumb police officers, incompetent doctors
- you name it. They make the headlines, but I firmly believe there's not that
many of them and most of people are fully adequate and reasonable.

From the article it sounds like there's a full faculty of racist bigots who
see maintaining white supremacy as their primary goal. He's universally hated
just for the color of his skin and there are few to no people who treat him as
equal.

Is it really that bad?

~~~
tptacek
There is no place in this NYT profile where Goins makes any claim about a
"full faculty of racist bigots who see maintaining white supremacy as their
primary goal", so that's not a reasonable question to ask.

~~~
AlexTWithBeard
Looks like you've dismissed my question on technicality.

I have to admit this is not exactly the answer I was looking for.

~~~
tptacek
Not that it matters, but just because my nerd brain won't let this go until I
type this out: refuting the core premise of your question isn't a
"technicality". The correct answer to "is it really that bad", in this case,
is "NaN fssst bzzrt pop!"

------
cc81
I don't doubt that there absolutely exists prejudices in this case but I also
wonder how many will also be created by one self in that situation just
because how the human mind works.

I used to have quite a lot of acne and it really got to my head. It of course
did affect how people treated me, especially girls, because acne is not very
attractive however after a while I probably read into things way more than I
should. That people who were treating me the way they normally would or just
happened to treat me badly because they had a bad day did treat me that way
because of my acne.

Being the lone black guy in a research institution in a country like the US
with that kind of history must be easy to start falling down that hole.
Especially if there also exists people who are prejudiced or racist and
expresses that as well.

~~~
lotaezenwa
So you believe your experience with acne could be a lot like people
experiencing racism?

~~~
rudedogg
I feel like your comment is disingenuous. He's saying that we all feel
slighted, and perhaps cases where minorities feel slighted, is just that.

A case mentioned from the article that gave me this vibe:

> “A couple of them were at a board writing something,” he recalled. “I went
> over and asked, ‘What are you guys working on?’”

> “We’re too far in to catch you up,” he said he was told.

I know personally, I used to feel very "in tune" to how people perceived me. I
read a book on body language when I was younger, and would constantly analyze
how people moved ("head tilted, they think this is interesting", "arms
crossed, they're defensive"), etc. It went further than that - analyzing
language etc.

But, there were some cases were I was certain someone was being an asshole to
me - but I learned I was wrong. Now I'm much more restrictive in how I pass
judgement on someone.

I hope others give me that benefit, because I constantly find myself thinking
of how something I said in conversation could be misunderstood, etc.
Communication is hard.

~~~
tropo
Yep, and thinking about that some more, I have to wonder if he might be
suffering from early/mild signs of schizophrenia. The assumption of racism is
unjustified paranoia.

When schizophrenia starts, it is common to assume that people's actions are in
some way plotting against you. A person does something for a reason unrelated
to you (example: bumps you accidentally), and you assume it was intentional.

I recall that there is even an increased chance of illness for math experts.
Famously, it hit John Nash.

So his interpretation of other people's actions may be a sign that he is not
well.

------
lordnacho
The thing with prejudice is nobody will ever admit to being prejudiced. All
you can do is piece it together. Sometimes your working hypothesis is that
it's just noise, other times it's prejudice.

I brought in a woman to work on a project once, and it was awful.

Despite her doing objectively better work than what was available before, my
partners decided everything she did needed criticism. Never anything
substantial, just pretend criticism meant to look like they knew what they
were talking about. And one of them wanted veto on all the work, despite
knowing very little about it.

They questioned whether she'd have been on the project if she didn't know me,
which is pretty out there given she did this for a living for some very well
known firms.

Then they called her something offensive in front of her, and when I called
them out on it, they pretended it was a joke intended to make her feel like
part of the team.

Can you ever conclude what people's true motivations are? Not really. Could
someone genuinely have felt that some person's work was substandard, they
didn't get the job legitimately, and could they screw up some office banter?
Sure.

It took me a long time to think this through, but in the end it misogyny
seemed to be the only answer. We'd worked with plenty of incompetents before
without saying much, and hired plenty of people (all guys) through the friends
network. We'd never had anyone get bullied like that in the office, though.

Story got a whole lot worse later, but that's for another time.

------
mykowebhn
When I was in primary school in Canada, I was able to get mostly good grades
without really trying. I admit I was a little lazy, and my laziness would
result in the occasional bad grade.

What I remember is that I would always be scolded by my teachers for not doing
well. A few of my friends, however, who were black would never be scolded for
not doing well at school.

The point I'm trying to get across is that racism can be quite subtle and
baked into things we don't even realize, like the expectations we have of
other people. I'm not sure how well I would've done in life if people
implicitly expected me to fail.

------
thetruthseeker1
I think subtle racism is a big problem. It can be felt without being verbally
communicated to you, the actions from the perpetrators are frustrating and you
feel helpless. The perpetrators would not be corrected because they said
nothing wrong. Worst of all is that you don’t get a fair shake, and you might
be dismissed at the slightest hint of incoherence and sometimes you feel like
the perpetrators are waiting for you to fail.

------
kauffj
> For the record, here is a small sample of other communities where black
> people are strongly underrepresented:

> Runners (3%). Bikers (6%). Furries (2%). Wall Street senior management (2%).
> Occupy Wall Street protesters (unknown but low, one source says 1.6% but
> likely an underestimate). BDSM (unknown but low) Tea Party members (1%).
> American Buddhists (~2%). Bird watchers (4%). Environmentalists (various but
> universally low). Wikipedia contributors (unknown but low). Atheists (2%).
> Vegetarian activists (maybe 1-5%). Yoga enthusiasts (unknown but low).
> College baseball players (5%). Swimmers (2%). Fanfiction readers (2%).
> Unitarian Universalists (1%).

> Can you see what all of these groups have in common?

> No. No you can’t. If there’s some hidden factor uniting Wall Street senior
> management and furries, it is way beyond any of our pay grades.

> But what I noticed when I looked up those numbers was that in every case,
> the people involved have come up with a pat explanation that sounds
> perfectly plausible right up until you compare it to any other group, at
> which point it bursts into flame

Excerpt from Black People Less Likely:
[https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/11/black-people-less-
like...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/11/black-people-less-likely/)

~~~
iguy
I would bet that in almost every one of those categories, Americans of New
England descent are over-represented compared to people of Christian
Italian/German/Polish descent. (With the least money on the sporting ones.)

~~~
afiori
Furries (2%).Occupy Wall Street protesters (unknown but low, one source says
1.6% but likely an underestimate). BDSM (unknown but low). Environmentalists
(various but universally low). Wikipedia contributors (unknown but low).
Atheists (2%). Fanfiction readers (2%).

there are quite a few that don't really match...

------
skh
EDIT: Got rid of part of my post that had enough information in it that could
be tied to people in real life.

\--------

It doesn't help that West Lafayette is a very racist place in my experience.
I'm white and a native speaker of American English. On my first day of
teaching at Purdue I introduced myself to the class and a student asked, "Are
you an American? Do you speak English?" At the time West Lafayette had a
confusing road system for a small town. Lots of 5-way intersections and one
way streets. I was late to a dental appointment and apologized to the
dentist's secretary. I explained that I had a hard time figuring out how to
get to the place. She responded, "Yeah, the road system here was designed by a
drunk Indian." I'm certain living in Indiana exacerbated the situation.

~~~
avip
It is also not helping that there actually _is_ such a thing as "token X". A
less discussed side effect of affirmative action.

~~~
pvg
I don't think that's the thing that's 'not helping', here.

~~~
Legogris
There is such a thing as the "token gaijin" at Japanese companies - the
foreigner who can show to visitors how international company this is.
Generally very little influence or path of progress. Also just the knowledge
of this phenomenon can cause self-doubt for the individual.

White people office workers Japan are of course not the same as black
mathematicians in the U.S., but I don't believe that it's not contributing to
the problem if it occurs.

~~~
pvg
I just don't think 'my prejudices are actually true' is the conclusion to draw
from 'tokenism exists', that is all.

~~~
afiori
you and me don't, but many do. It is a fact that affirmative action undermines
the claim of competence of minorities in the workplace. It also a problem to
be addressed. Whether or not it is right to think that has little influence of
the fact that many people reach that conclusion.

------
willpiers
I fail to see how either of your anecdotes constitute racism

~~~
paulcole
> Yeah, the road system here was designed by a drunk Indian

What does including Indian add here? If the (alleged) drunk was white would
the person have said, "drunk white guy"?

~~~
skh
I'm assuming this is a genuine question on your part. I would suggest reading
up on common stereotypes of the native peoples in the U.S. Native Americans
did not design the road system in West Lafayette. Whites did. The person
making the remark is in essence saying:

 _Yes the road system is really fucked up. It 's so bad that I can't give a
real explanation for it so I jokingly say a drunk Indian had to have done it
because that's the only thing that can make sense._

~~~
BookmarkSaver
For some reason I assumed that it was referring to subcontinent Indians, and
was slightly confused because I don't consider it racist to point out that
their road system is absolutely atrocious.

~~~
stcredzero
My first thought was that it was a non-sequitur, but that it involved
subcontinent Indians. I find it ironic that people who are apparently calling
out one kind of bigotry in this thread are then playing on stereotypes of what
people who live in certain places are like.

As a nonwhite who actually has been racially bashed and who has seen people
overcome bigotry through their basic humanity, I always want to warn everyone
that the problem isn't people from a particular place, people of a particular
ethnicity, or people grouped by any surface characteristic, chosen, indelible
or in between. The problem is groupthink, and the dark emotions that can come
about because of it.

The moment you start imputing thoughts, feelings, and emotions to people with
scant evidence, you have taken a misstep. (1) You have succumbed to
groupthink. If you would fight bigotry, it first behooves you to actively
eliminate your own bigotry. It's then your duty not to fall into the very
patterns you're supposed to fight.

(1) -- Also, if you start condemning people because you imagine you know what
they are thinking and feeling, and you believe they are lying to you, then you
set up a situation where no one can prove their innocence, and no one trusts
anyone else anymore. We have historical accounts of such times and places.
Often, such epistemological catastrophes accompany inter-ethnic and inter-
sectarian violence and atrocities.

------
ousta
I always struggle to see people victim of racism identify themselve only
through their race.

. “I have been the only one in most of the universities I’ve been to — the
only student or faculty in the mathematics department.”

“To say that I feel isolated,”

I have always been different looking than other people around me and never
identified myself through my race but through my interests and undertakings in
life. I find it sad that even people with PhDs think all people of the same
race are the same and feel isolated when they re not around same race people
while for me being a mathematician surrounded by mathematicians should be the
only thing that matters.

~~~
lordnacho
But this is not necessarily a matter of choice. If everyone else thinks race
is a thing, you need to at least think about it, regardless of whether you
believe in it too. I'd like to think the way you do ("my interests and
undertakings in life"), and mostly I do, but if I find myself in a society
where everyone has a label, I need to consider my label. To the point where it
might make sense for me to have others with that label near me.

------
crimsonalucard
As an Asian in math I suffer from racism as well.

~~~
crimsonalucard
See I was voted down. Racism.

~~~
dang
Please don't break the site guidelines by going on about downvoting.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

The problem with your earlier comment is that it was unsubstantive. Grand
claims in unsubstantive comments on inflammatory topics are particularly
problematic.

------
thereare5lights
At this time, only 4 hours old and 93 points, but is buried as #257 on the 9th
page. What gives?

~~~
porphyrogene
The moderators have a long-standing bias towards the political right. A black
man with a PhD in Mathematics is not allowed to speak out about systemic
racism on Hacker News.

~~~
dang
Forgive me for sharing a sample of my collection:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15032682](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15032682)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15585780](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15585780)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15546533](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15546533)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16134205](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16134205)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17197581](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17197581)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18664482](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18664482)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=slamdance](https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=slamdance)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13110004](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13110004)

I know how obvious it seems that the bias is against you, but that's mostly
because you (i.e. any of us) are 1000x more likely to notice cases you dislike
or disagree with.

~~~
porphyrogene
Your handling of this comment section was irresponsible. If you cannot handle
this responsibility you should ban submissions and comments dealing with any
and all social issues and allow only technical discussion. You have allowed a
hateful element to silence a voice that spoke truth to power by making simple
observations about how mathematicians handle race over a course of decades.
The moderation of this submission was unreasonable and discompassionate.

Edit: To my brigader bot, I am responding directly to a moderator. I want him
to read this comment. Flagging it immediately after I post is actually
helpful. Downvoting it only helps to prove my point.

~~~
dang
To be honest I'm having a hard time orienting to your complaint here. The only
thing I remember about the thread is banning someone who commented from (I
think?) the opposite side to yours, so if anything I'd expect the bias
accusation to run the other way.

If you think we made a mistake in the thread, it'd be more helpful to post (or
email us) a link and point out the specific mistake. Rote denunciations don't
help us correct anything, and general accusations like
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19195885](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19195885)
and
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19194629](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19194629)
don't add information, because you're simply not working with an accurate
picture of what we do. I understand how that happens, but there isn't much in
it I can learn from.

~~~
porphyrogene
My complaint from the beginning was that you stifled conversation by detaching
this thread and because every comment is flagged and downvoted automatically
you have allowed those who are afraid of this type of discussion to sabotage
any submission they dislike. You caved to the brigade instead of acting as a
responsible moderator. The ranking algorithm and the moderation policies are
too crude for this type of submission. It would be more responsible to
disallow them entirely.

~~~
dang
What you say about the comments is clearly not the case, as anyone can see by
looking at the thread.

I'm not sure what you mean by detaching the thread.

------
AlexTWithBeard
But aren't we all a minority in some way?

Looking at the folks in my office, many of us are not native speakers of
English. The guy sitting next to me is a native speaker, but he's black. The
guy next to him is a white native speaker, but he's disabled and has to work
from home most of the time. Another guy "ticks all the marks", but he's
extremely shy. And so on and so forth.

Look at yourself, at your parents carefully and you'll realize you are a
minority in one way or another.

