

The Happiness-Suicide Paradox - cwan
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2010/10/the_happiness-s.html

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joelmichael
"Happy" societies discourage the pleasures of melancholy. They judge people
who enjoy sad songs and rainy days, or who prefer to stay single rather than
go through the motions of dating people they don't really feel strongly for.
It's not that the society is happier, it's that it is more determined to keep
up the image of happiness. Really, it's just another status game, and just
underneath the surface of those games lies true misery. There is no satisfying
outlet.

~~~
notahacker
I'm not sure that people whose life is a struggle to stay alive have much time
to indulge in sad songs or wait for the perfect partner to come along: this
kind of indulgence in misery and laser focus on small problems is exactly the
kind of thing that's possible only in a society that's "happy" overall by
virtue of good health, education and financial stability.

I'd agree with you that the "status game" is more prevalent in "well-off"
societies though, except I feel that there's parallel competition to have the
biggest problems and the most cynical take on the positive things in life -
good for melancholic and angst-ridden cultural output but not so good for the
suicide rate.

~~~
joelmichael
So melancholy is a shameful indulgence, and happiness is discipline and duty?
Is it somehow better to those who struggle tragically if I keep a smile on my
face at all times? My natural reaction upon thinking of them is to do the
opposite.

I think there is something sinister about recommending material indulgence as
a means of overcoming the sin of "emotional" indulgence, especially if those
who suffer from want are used as justification.

Is all trauma in rich society non-existent? Does death no longer exist, or
loneliness, or guilt, or regret, or uncertainty, or evil, or unrequited love,
or feeling trapped, or inadequacy, or betrayal, or aging, or health issues, or
any other existential problem? Why is art throughout history rife with these
issues if they are abnormal elements of the human experience?

I agree that some can overly prioritize negativity or cynicism, but I think
this phenomenon is just a contrarian response to the dominant emotional
valuation. I am tempted into it whenever someone insists that I _must_ be
happy, or talks down about angst as if they were not themselves human. It's
offensive to the spirit and sense of honesty, integrity, and self. Better to
let feelings flow naturally. I too like feeling happy, if it's genuine.

As for the "perfect partner", I either feel a romantic pull towards someone,
or I don't. Every time I see people fake it for the sake of looking normal, it
ends in disaster.

~~~
notahacker
I think you're overanalysing my comments; I certainly never said anything
about duty to be happy or the absence of trauma in wealthy society.

My point was simply that the less-well-off have considerably more pressure not
to react emotionally to [relatively minor] adverse circumstances and
considerably less time for introspection and musing over what could have been,
if only. Possibly their everyday crises also better-calibrate their sense of
perspective (or if you prefer, densensitize them).

I'm not convinced that rich society is dominated by the relentless pressure to
be happy so much as a focus on emotional state, whether that's trying outdo
each other in terms of success or agonising over failings many would consider
trivial, because the meeting of our material needs can be taken for granted
and none of our social relationships are based on _need_.

(The problem with the search "perfect partner" is not so much the romantic
pull at the beginning as the worry that the level of romantic bliss is not
what it once was, or could be, or the grass might be greener on the other
side.)

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crazydiamond
I come from a country (3rd world) where life is tough. That results in a lot
of bonding and friendships. So despite adversities and misery there is a lot
of happiness, too.

From what i see, Western society seems pretty lonely -- I often wonder if
that's because there is nothing (no problems, no adversity) to bond people
together.

~~~
kristiandupont
I would agree. I am from Denmark (which I think might have sparked this
research because we are frequently reported the happiest nation on Earth - and
also the one with the highest suicide rate).

It's fun to see when something happens. For instance, the credit card system
broke down everywhere for about an hour this Saturday, during the prime
shopping hours. This almost caused a panic but there was also a lot of
friendly conversation among strangers becuase they suddendly had something to
talk about!

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btilly
Interestingly a depressed person is most at risk of suicide when their
depression starts to life. Because it is then that they have the energy to go
through with it.

This is a well-known problem when treating severely depressed people with
anti-depressants.

~~~
silentbicycle
s/life/lift/

It makes sense, though. I had a very depressive roommate years ago, and it
seemed like the defining characteristic of her depression was sometimes having
an insurmountably high activation energy for seemingly mundane tasks, and
being painfully conscious of it. Somebody who was full of frustration / anger
from fighting that all the time, but suddenly able to follow through could
really take it out on themselves. (She eventually transcended her problems,
and was still a cool to know in her worst moments.)

~~~
follower
> having an insurmountably high activation energy for seemingly mundane tasks,
> and being painfully conscious of it.

That's a really good description.

------
patrickgzill
Is Carl Sandburg appropriate?

    
    
      Are you happy? It's the only 
      way to be, kid.
      Yes, be happy, it's a good nice
      way to be.
      But not happy-happy, kid, don't
      be too doubled-up doggone happy.
      It's the doubled-up doggone happy-
      happy people ... bust hard ... they
      do bust hard ... when they bust.
      Be happy, kid, go to it, but not too
      doggone happy
    
    

"Snatch of Sliphorn Jazz"

------
tttp
Durkheim published more than a century ago a book that "invented" sociology
about suicide. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(book)>

One of the common findings in that field is that you don't do stuff based on
absolute measurement, but always relative. One of the good examples studied
are revolutions: you don't do revolutions because what you have is
intolerable, but because you can see, either near you or in a theoretical
model a better solution.

To come back to suicide, one of the reason he provided as a lesser suicide
rate among the catholics and jews is the social pressure: you just don't do
that. With a weaker social link (that isn't incompatible with more happy
society), committing suicide is even more accepted.

Ie. I'm surrounded by happy people that don't care about me, that's quite an
incentive to look for a final solution.

Beside, might be that these countries as a all are more happy because the less
happy persons are no more because they committed suicide ?

Read durkheim, still a enlightening author.

------
dirtyaura
Quickly skimmed figures in the paper. It seems that if you remove Catholic
European countries from the data set, correlation could disappear.

However, I personally think that the paper is still on to something. A few
weeks ago after reading some article I was skimming through murder and suicide
rates by country and it looked like there could be an inverse correlation
there, but I haven't had time to study it yet.

------
dan00
If life is hard, than you're too busy to think about life. Everything you're
doing is meaningful, because it keeps you alive.

In our society we pretend to do important work. But a lot of stuff is just too
keep us busy. If you're able to look through this, than it can be quite
depressing.

------
Lloth
It's not the misery or happiness that we should focus on. It's the
comparisons. If you're in a content or happy state of mind, you don't really
make those comparisons (or they don't really effect you), however you do when
you're down. By making those mental comparisons when you're down, you make
things worse for yourself. So instead finding strategies for when you're down
where you don't compare yourself to others might be the best solution?

A) Distract yourself.

B) Find enjoyable things in your immediate-present circumstances. This seat
I'm sitting in is pretty comfy.

C) Don't go on facebook to see all the apparently happy people.

Etc

~~~
silentbicycle
Happy and content are different, like being well rested and spiking/crashing
on caffeine are different.

------
varjag
I personally knew two persons who committed suicide. I don't think in either
case it had anything to do with premise of the post. Also, not sure where this
whole meme of highest rate in developed countries comes from. See
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_ra...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate)

Pretty even mix.

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praptak
Hm, hm. Maybe the cause-effect goes the other way? Just think of this: Every
unhappy person that commits suicide raises the average happiness.

~~~
baha_man
"Every unhappy person that commits suicide raises the average happiness."

I doubt it.

"Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported 28,322 American
deaths as suicides in the year 2000. Conservative estimates are that 6-10
people are intimately affected by each death. However, a study by the Baton
Rouge, LA Crisis Intervention Center (Bland, 1994), the combination of
possibly affected individuals reached over 28 people per suicide. In some
families, the estimated numbers exceed 50 people (Coleman, 2003). Since, on
average, 1,200 New Yorkers die by suicide each year, the latter estimate means
approximately 60,000 people qualify as suicide survivors each and every year.
This is equivalent to the population of the city of Utica (pop. 59,947, July
1, 2002)."

[http://www.omh.state.ny.us/omhweb/savinglives/volume2/suicid...](http://www.omh.state.ny.us/omhweb/savinglives/volume2/suicide_survivors.html)

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dennisgorelik
If you live happy life -- it's more likely to experience significant drop in
happiness (simply because there is plenty of room to fall). When such drop
happens quickly -- there is higher risk for suicide.

------
known
"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own
way." -- Leo Tolstoy

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greenlblue
Relative comparison theory strikes again.

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jpwagner
how about this conjecture: the metrics used for "happiness" also correlate to
individual proactivity.

