
The curse of the gifted programmer (ESR's email to Torvalds) - semmons
http://lwn.net/2000/0824/a/esr-sharing.php3
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tptacek
The curse of the gifted programmer is apparently the need to deal with
occasional direct emails from Eric Raymond.

~~~
jodrellblank
HURR I DONT LIKE ERIC RAYMOND PLS VOTE ME UP TOO.

1) Ignores the content of the submission 2) Ignores the other discussion
comments 3) Unsupported personal insult 4) Upvoted to 'best comment' position.

Look, pretend it's about someone else - Ray Monderic or someone - doesn't the
idea that early formalising your development procedures pays benefits for
other people and eases the transition from a system small enough that the
leader can manage it to a system big enough that they can't have some merit?

~~~
gn
Like it or not, Eric S Raymond is to the hacker community what Louis Althusser
is to French philosophers. Or Stanley Aronowitz to pomo sociology. Or Mark
Foley to the Republican caucus. Or Crystal Gail Mangum to feminist bloggers.
Every time an outsider first realizes how this guy was universally accepted as
one of our leaders once we've taken a collective kick in the gut. The sooner
people forget about this clown the better.

Your parent is an unsupported personal insult, you're not wrong about that,
but if it discourages others from advertising esr essays it's legitimate and
meaningful.

~~~
jodrellblank
Your post is _also_ an unsupported personal insult and you also feel that's
enough justification, that I shouldn't read anything by ESR solely because you
don't like him, and you are also being upvoted for it.

It's bizarre.

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tjic
This line of ESR's

> As Linux grows, there will come a time when your raw talent is not enough.

is the key bit.

...and I think it was proven true several years back, when Linus found it
increasing hard to keep on top of dealing with the inflow of bug fixes,
patches, features, etc.

Raw talent is never enough for the really big problems. _Proper_ use of
routines and procedures are a brain amplifying technology.

~~~
memoryfault
Yes, and so he moved on to an easier to manage project by starting to write
git from scratch.

~~~
rbanffy
Git, internally, is very simple.

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philwelch
We saw this earlier this month: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1167754>

~~~
jwecker
yes. I don't mind dups in general- good to get a refresher once in a while-
but when it wasn't even a whole month ago...

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mahmud
Eric Raymond comes off patronizing with his "listen to grandpa" bit. He
shrouds his argument in a weird "Unix tradition" argument, and appeals to
heritage, culture and other nonsense as if computing was his village and he
the elder.

~~~
memoryfault
I think the intent was to make Linus feel like the child he was (is?). I
thought it worked. Linus is quite patronizing in practically all of his
e-mails, so I don't see why others wouldn't return the favor.

~~~
cabalamat
> _I think the intent was to make Linus feel like the child he was_

At the time the email was written, Linus was 30.

> _Linus is quite patronizing in practically all of his e-mails_

Maybe so, but -- for me at least -- Linus has earned more of a right to be
patronising than ESR has.

~~~
mahmud
Who voted down this guy?

Linus earned his stripes; 30, 20 or 10 years old, the man delivered a world-
class piece of software.

Patronizing him is just pulling non-existent rank so ESR doesn't feel like a
fish out of water. Remember, while Linus oversaw the hottest piece of Unix
software to come in decades, Eric Raymond was making a living off of
"seniority" and "lore".

Eric Raymond is the spokesperson of an "in-crowd" whose membership he didn't
earn.

------
swolchok
(2000)

~~~
rbanffy
ESR's deeper point is still valid. Take away Linux and Linus and what remains
is that you should not try to tackle problems with genius alone.

His point, BTW, was valid since well before Linux was born. Or Linus, or ESR.

~~~
swolchok
It is customary to tag articles that are year(s) out of date with their year.

~~~
rbanffy
Oh... Well reminded.

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joe_the_user
The general point that sooner or later raw ability won't carry someone is
worthwhile.

I am curious whether splitting drivers early is a symptom of this.

I've personally seen too much code sharing as a more symptom of hubris than
too little code sharing.

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gcb
Why link to a loose copy?

why not the hundreds of mailing list archive where you can read the prequel,
or the followup?

~~~
sp332
Torvalds never really followed up, with just one paragraph a lot later in the
thread:
[http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0241.h...](http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0241.html)
"On the whole, people tend to _want_ to share, because it ends up being the
easier "quick hack" in many cases. So I'm not worried about that part
overmuch. I'm worried about people who share even when it doesn't make sense.
And I'm worried about people having bad interfaces, which makes even sensible
sharing end up as a experiment in horror. That's why I'm so un-interested in
the "let's share" argument. I don't think that is where the problems are. "

The more interesting "follow-up" is historical, when kernel development
started using BitKeeper and then git, instead of Linus' email inbox.

~~~
joe_the_user
But that reply actually doesn't sound at all like someone blinded by their own
ability but rather someone thinking very keenly about where the problems are
likely to be.

Linus can come off as smart but an asshole in person. But despite this, it
seems like his smart extends somewhat into smart insights about human nature.

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gonzo
ESR doesn't have a clue.

Linus has at least two to rub together.

Why do you quote ESR as though he's some demi-god? He's a freak who takes
credit for other people's work without so much as a citation.

~~~
kiba
Can you please justify your unsubstantiated ad-hominem attacks on ESR?

Also, show us why ESR doesn't have a clue.

~~~
enneff
Shouldn't the onus be on ESR and any of his supporters to demonstrate why he
_does_ have a clue?

~~~
jasonlotito
I think the fact that Linus eventually took his advise and works that way now
is a strong indicator of ESR being correct. Git is the prime example of ESR
being right.

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acqq
ESR is wrong, Linus is right. The letter should be read in context, and it
demonstrates the blunder of ESR.

Here is Linus' letter on which ESR responded:
[http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0201.h...](http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0201.html)

And here are Linus' points, in short: <http://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/22/12>

