
The drug debate in Japan (2018) - lermontov
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/japan-place-with-strangest-drug-debate-in-world/
======
hardwaresofton
Japan's culture is a double edged sword. The very same phenomenon that allows
you to have politeness-by-default and lots of dedication to professionalism is
the same mechanism by which you get glacial paces of change when the culture
settled into the wrong ideology. There are lots of more downsides (lots of
flipped-coin situations), but this is just one of them.

Japan is much less likely to change rapidly on this front than any other
society, in my opinion changing attitudes _everywhere else_ is what will
convince Japan. One thing I _could_ see is them legalizing marijuana but
taxing is incredibly (as a way to offset some long-term economics issues), but
I don't know of a single politician willing to be that progressive (and not
lose backing)... That's not what "progressive" looks like here really.

~~~
selestify
That's really interesting. What other flipped-coin situations do you notice?

~~~
hardwaresofton
Take this with a grain of salt -- I think I understand Japan after living here
for a while, but my "while" is <10 years and in the end it's hard to
understand Japan as well as a native Japanese person might. Anyway here are a
few:

\- Excessive Politeness <-> Passive Aggression (once you over-step or under-
step)

\- Dedication to Professionalism <-> Overworking & <x>-theatre (the
_appearance_ of working hard becomes paramount)

\- Pressure to behave "properly" <-> [Ex|Im]plosion of "improper" behavior

\- Prioritizing the group <-> Normalization of oppression (ex. someone putting
up with something that isn't right to avoid perturbing the group dynamic)

\- Propensity to save money <-> Less economic liquidity (whether this is good
or bad for an economy is very much up for debate)

\- Emphasis on success/reputation <-> Very risk averse behavior

Weirdly enough, in my opinion all of these things are what _make_ japan what
it is, and partially what makes it interesting. I haven't checked but surely
Japan is the most homogeneous large successful nation out there, with a very
distinct culture. I feel like I understand it because once you see the other
side of some of these behaviors, it just _clicks_ \-- some of it is just
historical and requires much more research (could japan have been a
matriarchal society? maybe?), but a lot of it just kind of obvious based on
the values held by a populace that is so largely homogeneous in culture.

Again, I'm not an expert in Japanese culture, that takes decades of work and
research -- but I've found a lot of these fairly obvious to see over the
years.

~~~
mikekchar
> Excessive Politeness <-> Passive Aggression (once you over-step or under-
> step)

One thing I learned (the bad way) is that people at work will be nice to you
and avoid confrontation and argument to an extraordinary extent. But if you
push them too far and get into an argument.... that's it. You've ruined that
relationship pretty much for ever.

Unfortunately it took me a couple of tries to understand the nuance of that
:-(

~~~
hardwaresofton
Yeah that's the thing -- another thing is the propensity for people to hold to
pretty meaningless relationships just for appearance sake. I think it's
contributing to the loneliness issues here -- people are nice to each other
but don't seem to ever actually connect. People will say they've "known"
someone for 5 years, when they at most speak once or twice every year (and
often never touch on anything substantial, either). I can't imagine how petty
high society is here, or how much backbiting there is at the local
HOA/neighborhood meetings -- I suspect it's worse than the US (because at the
very least people will confront and settle an issue there, instead of leaving
a minefield), but I will likely never find out.

I'm really trying to keep it light, but there is a lot to the underbelly of
japanese culture that isn't so great, but all that said, it's a fantastic
place to live, the cost of living is low (RIP japanese work force wages),
public transportation is amazing, people are wonderful, there's a wide variety
of influences and culture to sample.

Here's a light-hearted positive anecdote -- last year I left my wallet on a
bus I was riding, and when realizing ~30 minutes later, I stopped a bus going
the same direction to ask if the same buses came back (as in, would the same
bus I left my wallet on come back the other way), and the driver not only
confirmed, but also took out some stationery and wrote the number for the bus
depot, and the called and coordinated _extremely_ professionally. It was so
professional that I was even a bit ashamed for sounding flustered on the
phone.

To balance out that light-hearted positive anecdote -- don't ever go to a
Japanese governmental agency without the right paperwork/seals/etc, it very
likely will not end well for you.

~~~
magduf
>another thing is the propensity for people to hold to pretty meaningless
relationships just for appearance sake. I think it's contributing to the
loneliness issues here -- people are nice to each other but don't seem to ever
actually connect. People will say they've "known" someone for 5 years, when
they at most speak once or twice every year (and often never touch on anything
substantial, either).

My last gf was Japanese, and this reminds me of her a lot. She supposedly had
tons of "friends", but I almost never met any of them, and most of them just
seemed to be people she texted once in a while. She tried telling me once that
she could maintain a really "close" relationship without ever meeting in
person or talking on the phone...

And our relationship wasn't very close either; she only texted me, never
called, and really didn't seem to make much effort for us to get to know each
other on a really deep level. It's what finally destroyed our relationship.

Is this normal with Japanese people or was she just weird? She did seem to
possibly have other issues.

~~~
m_fayer
I don't have much interest in Japan or Japanese culture, so I don't really
have much in the way of bias or preconceived notions on the subject.

In the last few years my Japanophile flatmate has brought multiple Japanese
people into our home for short term (couple of months) cohabitation. I've also
noticed what to me felt like a lack of interest in interpersonal depth or
closeness, with myself and others. Conversations stayed rote, surface level,
and formal - though flatly cheerful. I often felt like I was "stressing an
introvert," was suddenly oddly conscious of the other's sense of privacy, and
only got polite awkwardness in response to attempts to be open and build
rapport. I just chalked it up to cultural differences.

------
vhb
Going to go with the unpopular opinion here, but I don't understand the
comments saying "Japan/Korea is so backwards/archaic, cannabis tobacco and
alcohol are all drugs, if you allow one, you should allow them all".

In the US/Europe, I totally agree with you. The benefits of making it legal
far exceed the cost and the associated risks, so if I was asked to vote, I
would vote for legalizing cannabis. But this is not a vote to cannabis, it's a
vote against the criminal networks that are profiting from cannabis.

Now, what you are saying, is that a country that does not have a cannabis
problem should still legalize it. Call me old fashioned, but I do not think
that a society that smokes weed is better than a society that does not. Saying
"yes, but alcohol/tobacco is worst" does not make is good.

Your point basically is: "these countries should allow weed because in the
West, we do have an issue with the criminality associated with it". I believe
on the contrary that Japan, Korea (and a few others, such as Singapore) should
be very proud of not having a drug problem, keep one working towards not
creating one, while at the same time focusing on solving their tobacco /
alcohol one.

~~~
intertextuality
1) Drug problems still exist in those countries. Albeit it’s different than
say, the US, pretending that it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

2) I’m not saying the attitude toward weed in japan should be the same as in
the US, but having this amount of social stigma is ridiculous. It’s absurd
when you consider just how much Koreans and Japanese people drink. It’s way
more than Americans, and at least in Korea it’s mandatory after work for a lot
of people.

3) Legalizing marijuana (even just for medical use) will not create or worsen
any existing drug issues.

~~~
vhb
1) That's true. Let's that it's barely a problem.

2) According to the WHO, Korea only drinks marginally more that the US, and
Japan less:
[https://www.who.int/gho/alcohol/en/](https://www.who.int/gho/alcohol/en/).
TBH, this is a bit of a stereotype.

I'm confused by how to interpret 3. Are you saying:

\- "If it's only for medical use, then it will not worsen the situation". I
would overall agree with you on this.

\- "Even if it's freely available it will not worsen the situation". I don't
believe this. I don't see how going from a situation where smoking is 1:
illegal, 2: actually complex (unlike in Europe/North America), 3: extremely
risky on the legal side, 4: socially taboo, to a situation where you can have
shops on the street would not worsen drug issues. I can't find any studies has
been conducted in any comparable societies, so we are both speculating, but I
just find your point absolutely unbelievable.

~~~
intertextuality
> TBH, this is a bit of a stereotype.

I live in Korea. The amount of people who binge drink often and are hard
drinkers in general, is higher than what I ever saw in the United States. It
may be a bit overstated as a stereotype, but it is absolutely true.

Also, in the US, you do not _have_ to go drinking with your colleagues/boss
after work, out of social pressure. This is still common in Korea, especially
for older workers. It's only now changing for the younger generation.

> socially taboo, to a situation where you can have shops on the street would
> not worsen drug issues.

These already exist, they're called "bars". One can pay money and enter a
stupified state of consciousness, either quickly or slowly.

Unlike other drugs [including alcohol, a drug], marijuana is not physically
addictive. I'm not advocating for hard drug stores to be present like bars
are; I'm saying I don't have a problem with say, Colorado's style, so far.
Making marijuana easier to smoke in Japan or Korea wouldn't be as dire as
you're making it out to be.

------
intertextuality
Living in Korea, it's just baffling to see these ridiculous, archaic attitudes
toward marijuana in Korea and Japan.

It's like stepping into a time machine. The internet and its resources are
available, yet no amount of reasoning or information gets through to a lot of
people. Marijuana is just "evil" or only "people who commit/will commit
crimes" use it.

I don't necessarily think the attitude here should be just like in the US, but
at least let people use it medically, and get rid of the disproportionate
stigma.

As @laureig mentioned, one can’t even admit trying marijuana in polite/semi-
polite company (of other Koreans). With foreigners it’s a little different.
Generally it only gets discussed if you’re closer with them.

\---

At the same time, alcohol [and alcoholism] is not only totally fine, it's
encouraged! Sometimes it's even _mandatory_ to go drinking with your coworkers
after work, due to social pressure from peers and bosses. I have spoken with a
few people like this.

But going to clubs in 홍대 Hongdae/강남 Gangnam and drinking until 9am or drinking
at a dozen bars in Golden Gai until 6am is totally fine. Drinking until you
puke on the street is totally fine. (Admittedly I did do this once in 세종시
Sejong-City, Korea)

~~~
sevilo
So just because alcohol is bad we should encourage other substances that also
have an effect on people’s ability to think clearly and have additive
properties? Instead of discouraging the culture of drinking? Regardless of
what westerners think of as “ridiculous” drug laws, Japan, Korea and other
Asian countries with “ridiculous” drug laws do have way lower rate of drug
addiction and abuse. That is no coincident.

~~~
SirHound
Shame there isn’t a metric for the amount of fun a society has from those same
drugs.

~~~
sevilo
Sure, China in the 1800s everybody had good amounts of fun from opium, widely
accepted by society, pretty much everybody did it. Wonder how that worked out
for them.

~~~
deadbunny
Britain got involved and fucked everything up?

~~~
ekianjo
It could have been any other country when your whole population is under the
ongoing control of opoids.

~~~
failrate
So, large swaths of the United States in the year 2019.

------
laurieg
In my experience more people than you might expect have experience with
cannabis in Japan. I was at a small party and the topic of cannabis came up. I
asked the group if anyone had smoked it before. Everyone gave a resounding
"No, of course not".

When the party was winding down, two separate people said "Actually, I've
tried it. I just didn't want to say anything in front of other people."

I find it strange how in the next few weeks up and down the country Japanese
people will go out and many will get very drunk from morning to night while
sitting under the blooming sakura trees but any other drug is so taboo you can
barely mention it in polite company.

~~~
mises
Not sure what exactly you're referring to; most people don't refer to illegal
drug abuse openly in polite company here in America either. Of course, it's
also impolite to ask.

~~~
Frondo
Maybe it's a generational thing, but in my circles (40 and under), no one
conflates cannabis use with illegal drug abuse -- the latter implies something
like heroin addiction.

Maybe it's also a generational thing, but at parties I attend, it's not
uncommon for someone to mention having spent their last birthday having used
blow, or mention back to some time they dropped acid, or whatever.

Drug talk seems much less taboo than sex talk; the people who talk openly
about sex are either sex workers or poly (and those people proselytize more
than vegans ;-) ).

Maybe a generational thing, though.

~~~
mises
I think it may be more regional. I'm definitely under 40, but have never heard
a prostitute mention her job, let alone proselytize. Same with drugs, though
you're right that marijuana is not taken as seriously.

~~~
Frondo
Oh, I meant the poly folks proselytize :-) Just that the sex workers I know
don't avoid talking about their work; they just treat it as work, as any of us
do.

What region are you in? I'm talking about my experiences in both the Pacific
NW, the Midwest (college towns), and a few of the larger cities on the east
coast.

------
mnm1
No matter how much or what kind of drugs are being used, it's not logical to
ever wage a drug war. This is probably the sickest, most disgusting American
cultural export in a sea of sick, disgusting cultural exports. It's one thing
to succumb to this type of sick, vile thinking when a country is under
occupation but a whole other thing to keep at it once you are no longer
occupied. In no way am I singling out Japan here. Most countries succumbed to
US pressure on this issue and even made it their own issue, persecuting and
killing their own people. The people who perpetrated these acts, acts akin to
war crimes themselves should be ashamed and hunted down but that won't happen
because justice doesn't exist. It is not too late to reverse such policies and
to shirk off this horrific cultural export as even the US is starting to do.
Unfortunately, many of these people ardently believe the lies they learned and
want to continue killing, jailing, torturing, and persecuting others who are
sick and would be better off served with compassion and medical care.
Hopefully, the world will wise up and get rid of this drug war, this American
mind poison, and reclaim their cultures and dignity for their countries.

------
jfptech
According to the CDC-

 _Drug overdose deaths continue to increase in the United States_

 _From 1999 to 2017, more than 700,000 people have died from a drug overdose_

 _Around 68% of the more than 70,200 drug overdose deaths in 2017 involved an
opioid_

 _In 2017, the number of overdose deaths involving opioids (including
prescription opioids and illegal opioids like heroin and illicitly
manufactured fentanyl) was 6 times higher than in 1999_

 _On average, 130 Americans die every day from an opioid overdose_

[https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/epidemic/index.html](https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/epidemic/index.html)

Government spends billions waging war on marijuana while Purdue Pharma, Pill
Mills, and The FDA kill the rest of us with Oxycontin

~~~
bregma
The LD50 for cannabinoids is approximately your own weight. At least in the
monkeys and rats studied, because there has never been a documented human
overdose and proper studies are both unethical and (in the US) illegal.

~~~
failrate
Basically, a marijuana dry flower overdose would come after A) your lungs were
ruined by the enormous quantities of smoke inhaled after a short period or B)
you were crushed or smothered under the plant material.

------
_bxg1
It's amazing to me how Japan can be so Puritan about some things, and so...
not Puritan about other things. Though I guess an outsider could say the same
thing about the U.S.

~~~
kranner
I would be more surprised to find any longstanding human culture that didn't
have any glaring inconsistencies in the things it encourages vs the things it
discourages.

We are all hypocrites.

~~~
_bxg1
True, but some cultures take it to a greater extreme than others. Usually it's
the ones most focused on self-purification that have the most hidden vices.
America and (apparently) Japan seem to be towards the top as far as first-
world countries go.

~~~
bsder
I would argue that the American people are far less hypocritical than the
government.

Most Americans who do marijuana, cocaine, MDMA, etc. will fairly readily admit
to it if you are in their circle of friends. Heroin, crack, and crystal meth
have a bit of stigma associated with them and so will get relatively less
admissions unless you are a bit higher on the friend scale.

Most marijuana users I know will tend to offer you some fairly unprompted.

------
jac_no_k
Japan has other surprise drug policies. For example, the prescription drug
Adderall is banned because it contains amphetamine.
[https://jp.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-
services/doctors/import...](https://jp.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-
services/doctors/importing-medication/)

This article is enlightening in Japan's attitude towards these stimulants. But
I could go any convenience store and pick up bottles of "genki" (energy)
drinks. There doesn't seem to be much regulations and only the occasional news
story of people overdosing.

~~~
refurb
Japan had a big problem with amphetamine use post-WW2. It was freely available
and heavily abused. That crack down is still evident today.

------
api
Why exactly did the US go so crazy against drugs? Seems like after WWII this
war on drugs mentality took root and probably peaked in the 1980s or so with
the peak of the WWII generation's power.

~~~
_bxg1
My guess is that, at least when it comes to Marijuana, conservatives are so
deeply offended by drugs because they're anti-productivity. Pot slows you
down, relaxes you, lowers drive (even just temporarily). For those on the
right wing, this translates to, "it makes you lazy, a burden on society, it
undermines the American spirit of hard work and self-started progress". They
rationalize it any number of ways, but I think that aspect is what makes it
personal.

~~~
saagarjha
I mean, alcohol impairs you quite a bit as well. And doing amphetamines can
arguably _improve_ your productivity.

~~~
_bxg1
True, but we tried prohibiting alcohol and that didn't work out. And when the
War On Drugs rolled around, Marijuana being grown by hippies was its poster-
child, not the cocaine being peddled by gangsters. That was illegal too, but
that's not where the emotional heart of the crusade was. Cocaine was used by
businessmen on the weekends; marijuana would corrupt little Jimmy and ruin his
future as a productive member of society.

~~~
_Schizotypy
We tried banning everything else and that still isn't working out lol The
black market of current day mirror that of alcohol prohibition. No controls on
products and rampant violence

------
aerovistae
I have an interesting personal anecdote on this. I'm a 27-year-old Caucasian
American (relevant) who doesn't speak any Japanese and who recently spent 3
months in Japan with my girlfriend.

Her aunt by adoption is an ethnically Japanese native of Tokyo who of course
speaks fluent Japanese, and we spent a month living with her there.

At one point, we went over her aunt's friend's family's house for dinner. The
friend's family does not speak any English.

All night we managed to have a really interesting and fun time by using Google
translate to translate what I wanted to say (my gf mostly just spectated), and
Google translate would horribly mistranslate it to humorous and confusing
effect, and then Yuka (the aunt) would explain to the family what I _actually_
meant with a proper translation.

Now in the middle of dinner, after a good hour of this and now at a stage
where we had mostly set google translate aside, it came up that I don't drink
alcohol, and the father commented how much money I must save this way. And I,
fool that I am, joked "oh no I blow all the savings on cocaine." And I looked
at Yuka, who chuckled and said "no, no, I'm not going to translate that." _But
she didn 't add any cultural warning,_ so I thought she was just being a
little formal. So I said, "fine I'll translate it with google translate!"

Now sure, you might say it was a bad joke, but in the US depending who you're
eating with it would still elicit chuckles or smiles, even if it was just
polite.

 _Not in Japan._ When I held up the phone with the translation for them to
see, the reaction was _shocked silence._ It was as though I had held up an
image of hardcore pornography at the table. Even the two high school age boys
were horrified, not so much as a smile.

After a moment the father muttered in halting English "bad joke."

And that is how I learned just how taboo drugs are in Japan.

In retrospect Yuka found it hilarious. "I told you not to say it!" "No you
didn't, you just said you wouldn't translate it, that's not the same thing!"
"Ha ha well..."

------
twic
It's worth noting that this article is by Johann Hari, who has a long history
of telling compelling but untrue stories. Most recently about depression:

[https://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-
flapping/2018/jan/...](https://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-
flapping/2018/jan/08/is-everything-johann-hari-knows-about-depression-wrong-
lost-connections)

EDIT and the backstory:

[http://www.jeremy-
duns.com/blog/2014/9/7/kdgwxcbsned1rknh0h3...](http://www.jeremy-
duns.com/blog/2014/9/7/kdgwxcbsned1rknh0h3zdvqrebxa3x)

He mentions Rat Park, which isn't as clear-cut as he makes out:

[https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/25/against-rat-
park/](https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/25/against-rat-park/)

I think it's wise to treat this story as a useful pointer towards an
interesting topic, but not as a reliable treatment of that topic.

------
alexmat
Recent interviews with Japanese activists on this topic:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmrDAXjcUXY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmrDAXjcUXY)

------
Pamar
Question: what is the stance about nootropics in Japan?

~~~
_Schizotypy
I've heard there are "smart drug" vendors on the street in some places in asia

------
Camillo
> I was told by Jake Adelstein, one of the leading experts on drugs and crime
> in Japan, and the author of the book Tokyo Vice.

He must be _really_ good to rank above all the experts who are from Japan.

OTOH, while Japan may have failed to produce leading experts on drugs and
crime in Japan, they seem to be doing pretty decently in terms of actual drug
and crime issues. If you were Japanese, would you want to follow American
advice on drug and crime policy? There are many good things about America, but
would you say its drug and crime situations are the highlights worth
imitating?

~~~
scottishcow
It amuses me how Western media outlets continue to quote Adelstein, his entire
shtick consists of spouting made up stuff about Japan to Western reporters
with no means of fact-checking.

I guess it goes both ways though, the self-proclaimed "America-tsuu (US
experts)" here aren't any better.

~~~
nugga
Is there some legit criticism on him and provable dishonesty? I don't know
much but I seem to recall him publishing stories uncovering and/or reporting
on what could be viewed as problematic or even embarrassing things about
japanese culture.

~~~
scottishcow
This thread may be of interest:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/3lnpt6/is_jake_adels...](https://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/3lnpt6/is_jake_adelstein_a_good_source_for_investigative/)

It's not like he acts with any apparent agenda or malice, the guy just has no
regard for facts. Everything he writes consists of a small sliver of facts
mixed with tons of faux-noir, spiced-up BS that paints some exotic portrait of
Japan tailored for Western audiences.

I guess we all want foreign countries to be more exotic than they really are —
I remember when I first moved here from LA, my classmates seemed disappointed
to learn that I'd never been involved in a gunfight :/

------
etaioinshrdlu
Does the US really have harsh drug laws compared to other countries? Doesn't
seem like it to me.

I also don't believe that other countries are harsh on drugs just because the
US or UN is. Doesn't seem to be a primary driver.

I think it's much simpler. Most societies are very anti drug.

~~~
hardwaresofton
Could you name a few countries you're thinking of?

Also, there is a huge amount of nuance lost in the term "drug". Alcohol is a
drug, Tobacco is a drug, Marijuana is a drug, Oxycodone is a drug. I think
what most people mean when they mention drug laws being harsh in the US is the
combination of very high penalties for drugs that have been proven to have
minimal negative repercussions, and the CIA's sordid history in the US and
abroad. You don't have to take my word for it, since wikipedia exists[0]
(there's lots more but it's a good starter).

Most societies may _say_ they are anti drug, but how harsh is the sentencing,
and how much of it is actually prosecuted?

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_drugs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_drugs)

~~~
adventured
Outside of obvious examples in Asia, Brazil's drug laws have created a
disaster there for one very large example:

"In 2005, 9 percent of those in prison were detained on drug charges -- now
it’s 28 percent, and among women, 64 percent. The law, 11344/2006, has
contributed to the last decade’s explosive rise of Brazil’s prison population.
More than 620,000 inmates swelter in facilities built, in aggregate, for about
370,000."

"Under the 2006 law many users have simply been prosecuted as traffickers,
made easier by the fact that the law does not set a minimum quantity of drugs
to differentiate between users and traffickers."

[https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/08/28/ten-years-drug-policy-
fa...](https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/08/28/ten-years-drug-policy-failure-
brazil)

~~~
hardwaresofton
Brazil also has a pretty big reputation for police corruption, and much more
concentrated/blatant issues with organized crime which can skew those numbers,
which is less of a problem in the US. Abuse of a bad law is one thing, but in
the cases where some drug use was confirmed (even if arguably without intent
to redistribute), I think the US has the heavier hand.

Even if I'm 100% wrong about Brazil, compare their 28% to the US's 45%[0].

[0]:
[https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offen...](https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp)

------
eternalban
"advanced democracy". Oh the lies we tell one another.

