
Renault's driver UX is a disaster waiting to happen - dmitriid
https://grumpy.website/post/0S6F8ozn5
======
amatecha
Yeah, I've rented latest-model Renault and Peugeot cars in Europe and I cannot
believe this stuff. It's probably same in new North American vehicles, but I
haven't driven those.

This Peugeot 308 was trying to kill me with its "lane assist" in a
construction zone, forcefully steering the car towards the concrete barrier
because the painted lines on the road were tapering towards the concrete
barrier (due to the construction). I finally found out how to turn that off
_after_ nearly being killed.

Make my car less like a desktop computer, please.

My favorite is _waiting for the car to boot up_ so I can turn on the air
conditioning in the sweltering heat :)

There's also the joy of fumbling through terribly-designed touch screen menus
so you can turn off the radio that for some reason auto-tuned to some nearby
station. Since my FM transmitter wasn't broadcasting audio I guess the car
just decides it needs to get something pumping through the speakers ASAP.

The other hilarious thing is the cruise control pretty much slamming on the
brakes because someone merged into my lane 300m+ ahead (not even slightly at
risk of driving into them because they are about the same speed as me). I
guess the system that detects an obstruction ahead cannot tell that it's
moving at the same speed as me. Not surprising, but regardless, can I please
be the driver of the vehicle?

Oh yeah and how about those software-driven dash gauges that feel like they
have a full second of latency? The ability to customize the UI skin is
something I want for WinAmp, not my car's tachometer and speedometer.

~~~
zoomablemind
I'm not sure how much the UI is indeed at play here, rather than the User's
state. The keyword here is 'rental'. This seems to just amplify grumpiness.

Picking a rented car, I normally don't spend much effort trying to figure out
all features. Just basics - adjust the seat, the mirrors, reset the trip,
rarely link up the phone. Touch-n-go.

It always gets irritating later, as I would try to figure some needed feature
while already on the go. Climate, radio, what's that beeping, which side is
the fuel port (while already pulling to the pump), the curiously long-lasting
parfum on the seat-belt from the previous renter at times triggering
unexpected memories...

I guess, it's just a mild form of self-inflicted road rage. RTFM would be an
easy answer, but we all know how that works out.

~~~
quanticle
That reinforces the article's point. Having a car as a rental allows you to
see its UI foibles without the blinders that inevitably come down when people
are forced to adapt to some problem over a long period of time. And like the
OP says, the UI of most modern cars is _horrendously bad_. For example, my
personal car is a 2019 Subaru Legacy. I rather like it. But there's no way to
make it start with the stereo off. If the car is on, the stereo is on. The
only way to turn the audio off is to twist the volume knob all the way down to
zero before you turn off the car.

When I first had the car, I found this to be totally ridiculous. Whoever heard
of a car that automatically turns on the radio when it starts? But, after
having had the car for a month, the problem is already fading, as I've
developed a habit of turning the volume down before I turn off the car. At
this rate, six months from now, like you, I'll be _defending_ this anti-
feature. (Hey, you're going to turn the radio on anyway when you drive, so why
not have the car do it for you on startup?)

I agree that the key word is rental, but my conclusion is exactly the opposite
of yours. The fact that this is an unfamiliar rental is what is allowing the
OP to see the issues with the car's UX clearly. If the car were his daily
driver, he'd have adapted to it, and he wouldn't notice himself getting
distracted.

[1]: [https://www.subaruxvforum.com/forum/interior-audio-
hvac/1460...](https://www.subaruxvforum.com/forum/interior-audio-
hvac/146089-turning-radio-off-so-will-stay-off.html)

~~~
xthestreams
Same "feature" with the radio in my Peugeot. How can anyone design something
like that?

~~~
phillc73
> But there's no way to make it start with the stereo off. If the car is on,
> the stereo is on. The only way to turn the audio off is to twist the volume
> knob all the way down to zero before you turn off the car.

I have a 2016 Hyundai Tucson with a similar, but slightly different feature.

Turning the volume all the way down before switching off the engine does not
effect the startup volume. When the engine starts, the radio comes back on at
a preset, but reasonable, volume.

However, if I turn the entire screen off, by pushing the volume knob in until
it clicks, before stopping the engine, then on start-up the radio will be off,
but so will the entire screen, which also controls navigation, bluetooth
connectivity and the reversing camera.

My first action after starting my car is 90% of the time to turn the volume
down on the radio.

However, I must say that's really the only niggle I have with the Tucson.
Everything else I'm pretty pleased with. While it does have a touch screen, I
hardly use it, as everything can be controlled with tactile knobs and buttons.
The touchscreen is used most when stationary and inputting a new destination
address for navigation.

~~~
quanticle
_However, if I turn the entire screen off, by pushing the volume knob in until
it clicks, before stopping the engine, then on start-up the radio will be off,
but so will the entire screen, which also controls navigation, bluetooth
connectivity and the reversing camera._

My Subaru has the same behavior, minus the backup camera remaining off. In
reverse, the screen turns on and displays the image from the backup camera. It
turns off again once you switch into drive. It's certainly _a solution_ to the
problem I described, but it's obviously not ideal for all the reasons you've
enumerated. Turning off Bluetooth, navigation, and (in my case) Android Auto
is certainly a drastic way of dealing with this radio behavior.

------
avar
No recent car UX I've seen has been worse than the Hyundai Ioniq. The button
to toggle reverse is right next to the cup holder / center storage, and placed
& designed such that it's easy to accidentally hit it as you put your drink
down[1].

I took a sip of my drink while waiting on a red light. When it turned green I
unexpectedly _backwards_ and just narrowly avoided crashing into the car
behind me by slamming the brakes. Turns out I'd switched it from "Drive" to
"Reverse" accidentally.

Toggling that button requires about the same amount of force you'd expect from
a button that turns on the radio in any other car.

1\.
[http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?media/31669/full...](http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?media/31669/full&d=1488215988)

~~~
masswerk
Having a look at the photo, the compartment in question was probably intended
to house an ashtray (where it may make perfectly sense), but is now a
nondescript storage space. (The actual cup holders are behind it, reasonably
away from vital controls.) It's probably more at about repurposing this space
appropriately – and they really should have closed the compartment rather than
having it used as a spare cup holder. If true, it's more about bad second
thoughts (what are we doing with this in markets where smoking is practically
banned?) than about bad design. Probably marketing is to be blamed and not the
design department.

~~~
avar
What they intended to use it for isn't relevant. It's still dangerously bad
design. Steering, breaking, accelerating and shifting gears in a car should
require deliberate and unambiguous action from the driver.

Some of the UX for these differs in ICE vehicles, but I don't know of a single
example in an ICE vehicle where just e.g. dropping your phone on the center
console could shift into reverse.

This is the case in the Hyundai Ioniq, and seems to be a trend as EV designers
dangerously reinvent standardized control surfaces to optimize for some
combination of trendy design and cost cutting.

In my case I was fumbling around the center console for the cup holder while
keeping my eyes on the road. In no sane car UX should doing that
unintentionally shift the car into reverse.

In pretty much any other car doing the same and accidentally bumping into some
button between the seats will at worst turn on the seat heating, or screw with
the radio.

~~~
masswerk
I do not contest that this is a highly dangerous arrangement. However, I do
think that the original design was safe and that there was no open space at
all nearby. If I were right, this is actually a dangerous situation created by
UX in the sense UX is more related to marketing than the more traditional
concepts of human factors and usability had been. "What may we do with this
space in those markets? Surely you want some convenient space in the central
console to drop your things! Why didn't they think of this in the first
place?" (A human factors expert, on the other hand, would have told you that
there had to be at least some sort of self-closing lid, just like car ashtrays
used to have them for decades.)

~~~
avar
It's categorically dangerous to have a easily pressed button shift gears in
the car. I don't see how it's relevant that some designer can say "don't put
something that can be used as a cupholder next to it".

The design creates a hazard that's categorically avoided in other vehicles,
without any benefit other than saving a few dollars for the manufacturer. I
can't imagine what else they're gaining over having a traditional gear stick
there, it would take up the same amount of space.

~~~
masswerk
I don't think that the buttons are for cost saving, rather, buttons are
thought to be modern (even, if they are not, think of the starter buttons
found in recent cars as well as in early ones) and levers and gears are not.
(UX again, probably aiming at a fly-by-wire experience.)

P.S.: The entire central console arrangement is always a bit questionable in
cars with a manual gear shift, even in the traditional layout. If a passenger
wants to access some in the console, s/he inadvertently interferes with the
driver's action. Certainly not a good thing… – At some point, you need to
know, what you may do and what not in order to avoid dangerous situations, and
there will be probably always off-limits zones by convention. But, of course,
you should do everything possible in your design to avoid hazardous situations
and mishandling, and to communicate usage as clearly as possible.

------
taco_emoji
Touch screens in cars should be banned. The interaction affordances are
abysmal compared to physical controls, and tactile feedback is obviously non-
existent. Not to mention that as the author mentions, many UI targets are too
small to touch accurately without diverting a significant amount of your
attention from driving.

~~~
a-wu
I disagree. Touch screens without accompanying physical controls, maybe, but I
don’t think touch screens should be banned. I’m a quadriplegic and drive a
heavily modified van. I accept that I belong to an extremely small demographic
but without a touch screen I wouldn’t be able to control any secondary
functions. I think the way my Chrysler Pacifica does it is nice- there’s an 8”
touch screen but also physical controls for the HVAC and media.

~~~
Bonooru
How does driving as a quadriplegic work? What are tools and modifications that
make it possible?

~~~
cyberferret
I am assuming you mean _paraplegic_? Don't know of many quadriplegic people
who can (or would be allowed) to drive, but I know a couple of paraplegic
people who do.

I was surprised at how little (and quick) the modifications were to a standard
car to make them accessible. Really only the mounting of a grip knob on the
wheel, and a side handle for the throttle/brake. There were other mods such as
pull down strap handles for the boot lid etc., but by and large the biggest
mods were those two in the cockpit.

~~~
chrisseaton
> I’m a quadriplegic and drive a heavily modified van

> I am assuming you mean paraplegic?

This is the most contrary Hacker News I've seen yet.

Do you honestly think it's likely that someone is mistaken about whether
they're paraplegic or quadriplegic?

~~~
tom_
A more charitable interpretation would be that parent is replying to
grandparent alone, having found the comment on 'new', and is unaware of the
great-grandparent comment that prompted it.

~~~
mkl
The "comments" page (not "new"; that's articles) has no reply buttons,
presumably because replying without context is anti-conversation. I don't
think it's charitable to assume other commenters would do that.

~~~
tom_
So there isn't! I occasionally look at that page, but have never gone so far
as to actually try to respond to anybody that way, so I never noticed the lack
of Reply button.

This is a thread about people being dumb, I suppose, so I am proud to have
played my part.

------
ZeKK14
Renault Megane owner here (the small Talisman), i want to address some of the
criticism in this thread and the article.

> The steering wheel contains two dozen buttons

The buttons on the wheel are pretty well designed and usable. The left side is
all about cruise control, one button for each action: faster, slower, ON, OFF.
That's it, look at the picture to check it. All these buttons are close to
your hand, have great feedback, and very simple to use. It's really nice to
have them here. Right side is about phone handling and the (crappy) "Siri" or
the car, I only use the button to answer the phone. Behind the wheel is the
radio control, which is actually standard for a Renault car.

> The cruise control buttons being next to the handbrake button reminded me of
> the worst car I drove

The button in the middle of the car is only to choose between "Cruise control"
or "speed limited". People rarely change it and I end up mainly using it after
I moved it while cleaning the car. It's okay to place it here.

> Touch screens in cars should be banned.

I have to agree the UI on this car entertainment system is terrible and slow.
Some controls such as the light power on the dashboard requires 3-4 presses,
which can be difficult while driving. It's a shame they never addressed this
problem, this UI can receive OTA updates.

All in all, this is a really nice driving experience. The main feature are
available on buttons and really fast to reach. I've droven a lot of rental
cars, and I remembered fumbling several minutes in the menus of a GM to change
the steering wheel settings, which is WAY simpler on a Renault.

~~~
dmitriid
> Behind the wheel is the radio control, which is actually standard for a
> Renault car.

I’ve yet to find radio control on the steering wheel. The inly controls behind
yhe wheel are colume up/down and mode (IIRC), whatever mode means.

No way to cycle through radio stations or change tracks.

~~~
masklinn
> I’ve yet to find radio control on the steering wheel. The inly controls
> behind yhe wheel are colume up/down and mode (IIRC), whatever mode means.

On some cars there's some sort of wheel in that stalk (sometimes embedded in
the stalk itself so can be easy to miss as it's hidden behind the steering
wheel).

Also if the volume up / down is on the radio stalk, maybe the track up / down
and stations change is the arrow buttons on the handsfree controls? Or does
that always just scroll through the contacts list?

I assume the mode is to switch between inputs e.g. radio / bluetooth / USB /
...

------
spectramax
No one is mentioning the most negative aspect of touch screens: Constancy.
Arguably more important than feedback. When you are used a physical button,
you can bet with quantum mechanical accuracy that the gluons are holding the
quarks pretty well together and that button ain't going anywhere. A touch
screen is configurable and hence I cannot be 100% sure that button is still
there.

You can _count_ on it. Just like you can _count_ on typing with a keyboard vs
speaking to Siri. Yes, a particular job can be done both ways, but the former
guarantees user interaction and feedback.

Also, no one mentions that touch screens are introduced in cars as a cost-
saving measure. Automotive grade buttons and encoders are expensive - check
ALPS catalog. That's the main reason behind this fog of UI/UX bullshit that
people are debating about.

Fuck the modern life. As I age, I am getting more and more grumpy. Can someone
explain why electric cars _have_ to look like a fucking spaceship!? Why can't
they just be regular cars with electric drivetrain? Why do men's stuff have to
look like it came out of tron and women's design look like a decorative art
piece in Cinderalla's castle? Design is a hot mess. I want to see a world with
a design dictator - someone like Dieter Rams who approves every design.
Joking.

~~~
Bluestrike2
> Fuck the modern life. As I age, I am getting more and more grumpy. Can
> someone explain why electric cars have to look like a fucking spaceship!?
> Why can't they just be regular cars with electric drivetrain?

That's probably the result of trying to appeal to early adopters. For all the
progress that's been made in shifting how people view electric cars, making
them appear a bit more futuristic through design is apparently still an
advantage for the marketers. We're still early enough in the transition that
you can feel like you're buying "the future" today. That said, the shift
towards using touchscreens for everything is really an industry-wide trend,
and not specific to electric cars. They appear futuristic (which appeals to
consumers), and they're cheaper than physical buttons.

If it makes you feel any better, time will probably erase that first
consideration. It's the Tomorrowland problem[0]; eventually the future catches
up to your design, and what once appeared futuristic becomes dated. It's the
second one that's a sticking point for a future shift back towards physical
buttons.

0\. [https://boardwalktimes.net/the-future-that-never-was-the-
tom...](https://boardwalktimes.net/the-future-that-never-was-the-tomorrowland-
problem-41829d45a933)

~~~
spectramax
[https://bollingermotors.com/](https://bollingermotors.com/)

I found something interesting. Electric truck that looks like it is from the
70's. Bravo.

------
mey
The current generation of Mazda have a very pleasant interface. Controls on
the steering wheel are split by function. Left side is audio/comms, right side
is cruise and driver MFD controls. Automation overrides (lane departure/awd)
controls are on a panel left of the steering wheel only the driver can access.
AC/Temp controls are physical, below the touch screen. Their is a jog/cmd dial
just behind the shifter that controls the center touchscreen. The entire
system can be operated from that dial. The system locks out certain center
dash functionality when the car is moving. The colors of all displays are the
same, including a heroic effort to match the brightness between the digital
and analog displays. The only control oddity to me is the location of sports
mode in relation the the parking brake switch. Both are next to the shifter
which makes sense, but enabling/disabling sport mode is hard to do by touch.
There is voice recognition for the av/nav but I have found it useless.

~~~
ryeights
I agree. My only other complaint is the display latency/responsiveness... I
don't understand why so many car manufacturers refuse to make their
infotainment systems perform well.

------
baron816
Please watch this video on what’s probably the worst car ever designed:
[https://youtu.be/Y16ObVRvgOE](https://youtu.be/Y16ObVRvgOE)

I’ve watched it probably two dozen times and crack up every time.

~~~
carapace
Unbelievable.

------
rsync
"There are more times than I can count on my right elbow when I deactivated it
by accident. On a highway. Doing 120 kmh. Prime time to crane your head
awkwardly down and slightly back while awkwardly bending your right hand to
try and re-activate it."

United 777 jets have buttons on the top surface of the armrest right where you
put your elbow down.

One of those buttons is the flight attendant call button:

[https://mk0runwaygirl0t0gjwt.kinstacdn.com/wp-
content/upload...](https://mk0runwaygirl0t0gjwt.kinstacdn.com/wp-
content/uploads/2017/03/IMG_4019-Custom.jpg) [1]

I have inadvertently hit this several times.

[1] [https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2017/03/09/review-uniteds-
dome...](https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2017/03/09/review-uniteds-
domestic-777-presents-mixed-bag-in-economy-class/)

------
gouggoug
The cruise control buttons being next to the handbrake button reminded me of
the worst car I drove, I don’t remember the model, but the brand was Mercedes:

The handbrake button was located on the windshield wipers handle, at the top
of the handle itself. I had the misfortune to hit that button going 75
miles/hour while trying to find how to do something else (I can’t recall
what).

Thankfully the car detected I was going fast and quickly disengaged the
parking brake.

What a stupid idea to put such a dangerous button in such a weird place ...

edit: as gambiting commented, the button I am referring to is the P button, it
is located on a stalk on the right hand side of the wheel, which is dedicated
to shifting P N D R.

It is not on the windshield wipers stalk. The windshield wiper stalk on this
car is located on the left hand side of the wheel, above another stalk for the
turn signals.

Driving this Mercedes was utterly confusing.

~~~
gambiting
That was never the case in any Mercedes ever - in some automatic models the
"P" mode switch is at the top of the stalk(you use the entire stalk to move
between R N D modes), correct. But pressing the button while moving does
absolutely nothing - you get a beep telling you that you can't do this right
now. The actual handbrake button is usually below the lights switch next to
the steering wheel on the door side.

~~~
rsync
"But pressing the button while moving does absolutely nothing - you get a beep
telling you that you can't do this right now."

Not quite ...

We owned a 2013 Mercedes E320 4matic (wagon) (US version) and although these
did not happen often, you could:

1) Hit park while idling and lurch to a park even though you were driving >0
MPH.

2) If you were creeping along into a difficult parking space and you opened
the door at, say, 1-2 MPH to look down at the divider line or something, the
car would insta-lock into Park. I assume it is a safety measure or something
as the door was, indeed, open, but I really don't want the major driving mode
of the car auto-selected for me ... also it's quite a KER-CHUNK to throw it
into park at 1 MPH ...

~~~
todd8
I knew someone who told me his wife stopped at their mailbox to pick up mail
and neglected to put their Mercedes in park when she opened the door. The car,
while idling ran over (some part of) her! I'm not sure how hurt she was, but
I've met her and she seems just fine now.

He claims that because of this incident (and I suspect others like it) in new
Mercedes opening a door automatically puts the car in park.

~~~
gambiting
Yes, and it's an incredibly hated feature by the owners of the G class who
actually use those cars off road - you're in the middle of a difficult
manouvre and need to open the door to look at clearance - bam, car goes into
park.

------
colanderman
The funny thing is, anyone who read Don Norman [1] could have told you this
after 2 seconds' thought a decade ago.

Why then, do multibillion dollar companies continue to produce such boneheaded
designs in 2019?

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Design_of_Everyday_Things](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Design_of_Everyday_Things)

~~~
ako
They probably produce these designs because they sell better. I explicitly
ordered a full screen dashboard on my skoda kodiaq (similar to vw/audio
digital dash) because I like it better that analog dials.

Companies produce things that sell, so probably better to ask why consumers
buy these things...

------
bjakubski
I drive 2017 Renault Talisman, which is basically the same as 2019 model
(there was no facelift in the meantime).

I really don't understand where some of the complaints from the article come
from. The "another stick" to control audio is pretty nice. I find especially
volume control pretty natural. Contrary to article it _does_ allow switching
tracks/radio stations. I don't mind the steering wheel controls. I don't use
cruise control that much, so left side is mostly unused, but I often use right
side). I drove 2004 Mazda 6 before this car, where I had volume control on the
steering wheel and I do not find Renault's layout interior.

The R-Link infotainment system is far from perfect. Menus are quite confusing
to me. I don't find it slow though, but I guess the main point is that I do
not use it much. I sometimes change something in the settings (usually when
stopped), but more often I just start Android Auto and use that. I don't
remember if the setup visible in photo in the article is the default, but
there is a hidden option in Android Auto which allows it to take much more of
the screen space than shown by author. It's kinda like square display then? I
find using touchscreen then tolerable (but I do not advise to do it while
driving). My son selects own music without problems though. One thing missing
from the article is that the main infotainment system and Android Auto can be
controlled via the knob/wheel controller visible in the photos. It supports
rotating, 4 wheel directional action and press. The operations I perform the
most while driving (that is controlling music via Spotify) are really quite
comfortable when using this controller. Note that, unlike some other cars,
there are two physical dials for setting climate control temperature. These I
do use and can't imagine having to use touch screen for that (that eliminated
for example Peugeot 308 when we were shopping for car)

But how I (180cm height) or my wife (163cm height) accidentally press the
cruise control/speed limit button? I have no idea. I have automatic gearbox,
but quite often (when stopped and, obviously, when changing gears) I drive
with one hand on the stick and elbow resting on the the elbow-rest and I can't
imagine how that switch could be pressed. Maybe if someone is really short and
the seat is in very forward position? _Certainly_ not in position as shown in
photo. Also never heard such complaint from other Talisman owners.

~~~
dmitriid
> Contrary to article it does allow switching tracks/radio stations.

I think I've pressed every single button on the wheel and all the sticks.
Still haven't found a way. If you need to read the user's manual to figure out
such a simple task, it's a failure of design.

For example, I would think that the right thumb stick would do that. Because
it literally does nothing. But no.

In the end thanks to HN and elsewhere I found the wheel. And of course it's
just as abysmal as the rest of the design:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20354178](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20354178)

> ne thing missing from the article is that the main infotainment system and
> Android Auto can be controlled via the knob/wheel controller visible in the
> photos.

Yeah, no. It's much _worse_ than glancing at the screen and reaching to touch
it. Because you have to constantly look at the screen while manipulating the
knob. Because at any point in time you don't know where the current selection
is and what actions will be triggered by activating the knob.

Unless, of course, you set it once (on the "change track" button) and never
move it.

> But how I (180cm height) or my wife (163cm height) accidentally press the
> cruise control/speed limit button? I have no idea.

Having it done three times already, I also have no idea, but I did (I'm
178cm). Possible reasons:

\- While parked I had to reach to the passenger seat from the driver's door
(the button is extremely easy to deactivate)

\- Fumbling with my water bottle when trying to put it into the compartment
under the hand rest

\- Leaning over to the right and putting my elbow down for something (probably
reaching for something or scratching my leg)

However, "I can't imagine how" cannot be a justification for this design
decision. The reasoning is simple: when you are already driving, how do you
turn cruise control on?

------
dawnerd
VW seems to have a nice balance between touch and buttons. All of the wheel
buttons are useful and in a good spot. Physical buttons for climate also in a
good spot. Touchscreen in the newer models is large and tap zones are pretty
forgiving - although you shouldn't even need them while driving.

~~~
geff82
Volkswagen really knows how to design cars that are 100% intuitive. Big, easy
to find buttons in a spot where you can easily reach them. Hyundai, in my
opinion, is similarily easy to operate.

------
jimmaswell
Funny how technology keeps making cars in particular worse. I'll probably be
sticking with 90s models for a very long time. My 99 JGC 4.7L has basically
everything I want or need with an FM transmitter and phone mount added.

~~~
Vordax
I tried going back to an old car, but 45mpg hybrid Kia Niro, push button to
start, Android Auto, backup camera, blind spot warning, blue tooth, and
adaptive cruise control, etc, never again will I drive an old car.

~~~
dillonmckay
That is like a $90 head unit from Amazon, my friend, except for adaptive
cruise control and a pushbutton, though that is not difficult or expensive to
add either.

~~~
Vordax
I also would like to add the emergency break assist. I have already had that
save me from one accident, I suspect this is very hard to add aftermarket.
Plus a $90 head unit will be utter crap.

~~~
dillonmckay
You would be surprised at the level of quality, but a $30 head unit, still not
bad.

But, yes, you have me on the emergency brake assist.

------
nickserv
I'm unfortunately in the market for a new car, and I'm having to look into
work vehicles like small cargo vans to avoid all this nonsense.

Touchscreens, radars, special Android apps, automatic climate control, buttons
on the steering wheel...

Enough already, I just want a fucking car!

Airbags and antilock brakes save lives. A/C is useful in summer. Radio is
nice. The rest is garbage.

~~~
gmueckl
The right set of buttons on the steering wheel are a life saver. Quite
literally. How often do you take the hands off the steering wheel to adjust
the radio? Be honest. Even if you're not looking at the radio, your attention
is focussed on finding and manipulating the controls by touch. The control
over the car is diminished because you don't have both hands on the wheel
(important for quick reactions, less so for driving straight). The same goes
for cruise control that can be controlled entirely with the thumb and hands on
the wheel.

Maybe a set of _useful_ buttons should be mandated on the steering wheel?

~~~
Marsymars
My Ford Fiesta feels like they really half-assed the QA on the steering wheel
UX. There are some << and >> buttons on the steering wheel, which work fine
for FM radio, but I exclusively use Sirius in the car and instead of going to
the previous/next channels like you'd expect, << and >> just go straight to
channel 184, and you have to use the center dash buttons to adjust the
channel.

~~~
jessaustin
Is "184" the only channel that has been saved as a preset? Typically those
buttons cycle among preset channels.

~~~
Marsymars
Oh my god, I've had this car for six years, and you're entirely correct. Thank
you so much.

Still awkward UX since the steering wheel buttons have exactly the same icons
as the dash buttons yet do different things, but their functionality is
described correctly if you read the entire vehicle manual.

~~~
jessaustin
Haha you're welcome. Also you should upvote that comment. b^)

------
artpi
I own a Renault Duster and I was convinced the UX is crappy by design to make
me switch to a higher "tier" of a car (duster is about 12K USD for a new one)

\- Audio system has a huge knob that changes radio stations, but buttons for
volume ️

\- The "Turn off ECO" button that gets me higher RPM for overtaking is behind
the cups on the cupholder. I cannot use it if I have a drink. Its quite
dangerous when I want to overtake but dont have enough power and cannot get it

\- The magical buttons to control audio / phonecalls behing the wheel is a
shitshow. There are some buttons I cannot see, but I have never pressed the
correct one

\- Rearview mirror adjustement is under the parking break handle

\- Cruise control is such a shitshow that I never use it

------
ptaipale
"\- The steering wheel contains two dozen buttons"

Actually, one dozen. I also have a Renault, but older, so the configuration is
different, but I use regularly three of the cruise control buttons, and three
or four of the audio control buttons, and I don't have the phone connection
which I would use too if I had it. I can imagine many people using most of
that dozen buttons on a very regular basis.

And if you don't use them, you don't have to.

~~~
gmueckl
I have a Hyundai i30 (Elantra GT in the US, I believe) with a similar set of
buttons on the steering wheel. The only button I don't use is the one to
activate voice recognition for Android Auto or Car Play (I use neither).

------
bborud
This is why I love old cars. And especially the "moderately expensive" cars of
their era, like the Bertone-designed Alfa Romeo GTV from the early 1970s. A
well kept specimen just feels so nice to drive and it is so easy to drive as
well because there's nothing that needs fiddling with and nothing that is
trying to meddle with your driving.

I wish they'd make simpler cars. With physical knobs that have proper tactile
feedback.

(I'd wish for normally aspirated engines as well since they are nicer to
drive, but turbos are the price we have to pay for 270-300hp 1.8 liter
engines. _sigh_ )

~~~
inferiorhuman
_there 's nothing that needs fiddling with _

On an old Alfa, everything needs fiddling with (including the things you can't
adjust like the position of the pedals and other controls).

~~~
bborud
Oh yes.

Plus you need to be built like a monkey. When the pedals are the right
distance you can't reach the steering wheel. And when the steering wheel is
close enough, your knees are pointing up at either side of the steering
column.

Glorious. Just glorious :)

------
lykr0n
I'd take that over a Tesla any day.

Once you learn where the buttons are you can control them without taking your
eyes off the road. That looks like most cards other than a Tesla.

~~~
btilly
Have you actually driven a Tesla?

Most of the stuff that I want to do is steering wheel, or is controlled by
voice after hitting a button on my steering wheel.

If you have to look at the screen while driving, you're doing something wrong.

~~~
Fins
Can we please put to rest that canard that only people who did not drive a
Tesla criticize it?

Depending on what you want from a car it is entirely possible and reasonable
to discover that while Tesla is the best EV on the market, they do pretty
crappy job of being a _car_ as good as one that costs half as much.

~~~
pbreit
"they do pretty crappy job of being a car as good as one that costs half as
much"

I would disagree emphatically with this assertion.

The UX in particular seems to have been very thoughtfully considered whereby
the few controls that are used frequently get some dedicated buttons and the
remainder in the touch screen and/or voice control. The degree of
thoughtfulness between Tesla and nearly all other manufacturers is very
starkly different.

~~~
Fins
Well, Tesla lovers do seem to believe that recalling a saved seat position
from several layers deep in the center screen menu is more convenient that
pressing a button on the door, but I will just respectfully disagree here. I
suppose there must be some car, somewhere, that is thought out worse (for UX,
obviously) than a Tesla, but I haven't seen one.

~~~
TwoBit
Uh, isn't that one click at the top of the screen? I have a Tesla, fwiw, and
to say the UX is the worst just makes me dismiss everything you say. There are
a couple things that I don't like (eg turning odd the headlights takes a
couple clicks), but after owning one for a few years while also owning a
Toyota and Audi, I'll take the Tesla.

~~~
Fins
Well, I'll take the Audi. And according to someone who was bragging about how
great Tesla does it (with all their software updates I will not insist that my
experience several years ago is indicative of today's UX) claimed that you
need to switch to the right screen, select correct user profile, and press a
button from there. And even if it is, in today's software revision, a top-
level UI element that's always present, it's still located on the bloody
center screen that you can reach only after you've squeezed yourself into the
seat.

Seriously, I am not really going to take seriously any claims from anyone who
says that a touchscreen in a moving vehicle is a good idea. This is an idea
that is absolutely ridiculous on its face.

------
mrpippy
Wow, that touchscreen UI gave me serious flashbacks to Windows Mobile 6.1
(especially the dark theme used on the HTC Touch Diamond). Especially because
the font looks like Tahoma, but even the appearance of the soft buttons is
dated and the overall design is so bland.

Barely looks better than the UIs that come on no-brand Chinese radios.

------
jedberg
> The touch screen is filled with insanely small targets

I'm running the latest iOS beta. One of my biggest complaints is that they
changed the CarPlay interface and made all the targets smaller! I had a hard
enough time hitting them before, now it's even harder, especially when the car
is moving and bouncing.

Luckily the worst outcome is that I skip a song or something, and not safety
related, but still, come on Apple. You should know better.

~~~
CharlesW
> _One of my biggest complaints is that they changed the CarPlay interface and
> made all the targets smaller!_

Do you mind elaborating? I'm also running CarPlay with iOS 13, and the apps
all seem to have the same usual button sizes/target areas.

I suspect you're thinking of the new "dashboard" view (pictured at
[https://www.macworld.com/article/3403343/everything-new-
in-c...](https://www.macworld.com/article/3403343/everything-new-in-carplay-
in-ios-13.html)), but even in that case I haven't run into a scenario where
the buttons/targets seem smaller.

~~~
jedberg
Specifically the "Now Playing" screen. Before the cover of the album was a
transparent background, but they instead made it a standalone picture on the
right side, shrinking to forward and back controls (and in my podcast app,
shrinking the skip 30 buttons).

------
Karto
I've been working for a few years for a large European trucks manufacturer.
Two brands were co-developing a new range of models, one brand a bit more
luxurious than the other. The "slightly lower end" brand were making a very
fancy HMI with two large colour screens, lots of menus and the stuff. The top
end stuff just had a huge bunch of well placed physical buttons and switches.
When the prototypes came into drivers' hands, everybody liked the buttons,
nobody liked the screens. It came as a bad slap to the people who had worked
for years on it. "Those young drivers, the iPhone generation, think our screen
based HMI is way too complicated and misleading."

I drive a Dacia and I love its simplicity... I fear the day when they try to
make a Dacia look fancy.

------
vbezhenar
I bought new Renault Logan Sandero in 2015 and couldn't be happier. No stupid
assist stuff, no computer stuff, just engine, wheel, gearbox and brakes. The
only safety stuff that I'm aware of is ABS and airbag which is more than
enough for me. My next vehicle will absolutely be Renault Duster with a
similar configuration. I need car to drive, not to think instead of me.

Though some things would be nice to have. Like car detection in blind zones. I
think that it's not invasive, just some kind of light bulb.

I thought that I would want an advanced cruise control (which measures the
distance and accelerates or decelerates a little bit) but I definitely don't
want it to hit brakes instead of me. If this feature does more than
controlling an engine, I don't want it.

------
Robin_Message
I hired a Renault Mégane about five years ago. The headlight control was a
rotational control with very low friction on the end of a stalk. The same
stalk also did full beam and indicating. You can guess what happened
repeatedly: whilst driving on dark country roads, I'd flick the beams up or
down, or indicate, and that flick would also spin the headlights, turning them
off. Happened several times to me and my wife who also drove it.

I suppose maybe that car was faulty and the friction was lower than it was
meant to be, but still, it was an accident waiting to happen: being plunged
into darkness on a twisty country road after passing another car was not fun.

So bad UX is not a new thing for them.

------
docker_up
I feel the same way about the Model 3.

The touchscreen interface is fine for a computer or when you're parked but
when you're driving it's utterly useless.

At the very least, they need to move the AC to tactile knobs and buttons. I
can't change anything to do with the air while driving because it takes too
much of my concentration to figure it out. The glove compartment also needs to
be moved off onto its own real button but that's minor compared to the AC.

------
734129837261
A touch screen is pure evil and stupidity and the product of grey old men
dictating their products: "We NEED touch, build it in!"

Thing is, roads are bumpy. G-forces make your extended hand go all over the
place. A touch screen in a car is pure stupidity. You want to rest your arm
and take control of ONE single controller, either an Apple-like quality touch
pad, or a knob you can navigate and press.

They'll get there, eventually. When those fossils die.

------
geolgau
I have a Mazda 2 (2017 model) with a touchscreen, but my model also has a
rotary control knob which works great - I never have to touch the screen - in
fact it's being disabled when I reach 30km/h. The nastiest problem I have is
bluetooth volume - where FM/USB (mp3) playback at volume 9-10 (out of 50) are
perfect, for bluetooth I have to be at 34-37 to be on the same level. And the
problem is when switching between them - the horror!!! But even worse is if I
forget to activate bluetooth on my phone and start the car, which after a few
seconds of trying to connect to the phone switches automatically to FM and
BLARES the fucking sound at me! It's insane.

I didn't have this problem with a Sony player in a rather old car (Opel Astra
2001). It remembered the volume setting for each function separately, so when
you switched between FM, usb playback or bluetooth you had the volume you used
previously for each.

I contacted Mazda with this problem, but they never bothered to answer.

------
Johnny555
Moving the cruise control on/off buttons off the steering wheel doesn't seem
like the worst decision -- that's something that I usually press once per
drive, and never touch it again, so in the interest of reducing the number of
buttons on the steering wheel, putting the buttons elsewhere makes some sense.
The center console seems like an unusual place to put it, the dashboard itself
would seem to be a better place.

Though I don't understand how he hits it accidentally with his elbow, the only
way I could hit a button on the center console would be if I lean down and do
it intentionally. In the photo with his hand on the shifter, his elbow is on
the armrest and couldn't touch the red buttons accidentally

~~~
amatecha
For highway driving, having all the cruise control buttons on the steering
wheel is a godsend. Guess it depends on the driver's usage of the car, but I'm
a big fan of not having to fully take my hands of the wheel to enable/disable
CC or alter the cruising speed/etc. :)

~~~
Johnny555
My cruise control has a "cancel" button on the steering wheel (which is not
the same as "off"), but almost all the time, I just tap the brake pedal to
disable it since I generally want to disable it when I want to slow down.

As far as I can tell from his pictures, the Renault has only the main on/off
button on the center console, and the rest of the cruise buttons are on the
steering wheel.

EDIT: I found the owners manual, and indeed the center console has only the
main on/off button, the steering wheel has the speed up/down (+/-), Resume
(R), Cancel (O) buttons.

[https://www.renaultusa.com/News/DriversManuals/talisman.pdf](https://www.renaultusa.com/News/DriversManuals/talisman.pdf)

------
amluto
It appears to have a door lock _button_ , so it scores at least one point
against Tesla.

~~~
cptskippy
Which one? The S, X and 3 have very different interiors.

I had an S for a week recently and it has physical controls for most
everything. It felt like driving a normal car, I hated it.

I don't really see a need. The Model 3 automatically locks when put in drive
and unlocks when in park. You can disable the unlock on park option. Child
locks are controlled via setting and not switches in the door panel that kids
can easily play with.

Apart from a scenario where you are in danger and need to quickly get in the
car and lock your door, why do you need a dedicated button?

~~~
amluto
> I had an S for a week recently and it has physical controls for most
> everything. It felt like driving a normal car, I hated it.

What Model S did you drive? Unless new ones are radically different from any
I’ve ever seen, there are no physical door lock controls, HVAC controls or
audio controls (except on the steering wheel).

Suppose you stop in a dangerous neighborhood for long enough that you want to
put the car in park. The auto-unlock, especially in the absence of a button to
re-lock the doors, is potentially dangerous. So you turn it off, and now you
have to remember to double-tap to unlock.

To make it more fun, the Model S can get into a state where the doors are
nominally unlocked but the handles are retracted. Getting in the car when this
happens is awkward at best.

There’s a reason that almost every other car has a physical control for the
door lock.

~~~
cptskippy
> The auto-unlock, especially in the absence of a button to re-lock the doors,
> is potentially dangerous. So you turn it off, and now you have to remember
> to double-tap to unlock.

Double tap to unlock? There is a padlock always in the same place at the top
of the screen that you can see to get state and touch to change.

If you need have auto-unlock on and put the car in park, your hand is inches
from the padlock to re-lock the doors.

The only scenario where a physical button makes sense is when you urgently
need to lock the doors.

~~~
amluto
> Double tap to unlock?

Double-tap park.

> There is a padlock always in the same place at the top of the screen that
> you can see to get state and touch to change.

That’s newish, embarrassingly. And sorry, but a little tough target in a
corner of the screen is nowhere near as ergonomic as a button you can feel.

~~~
cptskippy
Maybe older models are different but I've driven both pre and post bumper
redesign Model Ss and a Model 3. In all three Double-tap is for the emergency
brake. Single tap on the control stalk parks the car.

> That’s newish, embarrassingly.

Newish? It's always been there to me and to anyone buying a vehicle after it's
introduction, whenever that was years ago.

How many other automakers add new functionality to their vehicles years after
purchase?

> And sorry, but a little tough target in a corner of the screen is nowhere
> near as ergonomic as a button you can feel.

A dedicated physical button is always easier to locate/use but adds
unnecessary clutter when there is a button for everything.

I personally have never longed for the button as the only time I recall using
it in other cars is to lock my partner out of the car just as they try to open
it.

------
mschuster91
It's not that difficult lol. Important stuff (= what the driver needs to be
able to access during driving) should be physical buttons that are unlikely to
be hit by accident, the rest is well served by a touchscreen that optimally
can be controlled and seen by the passenger.

Oh and for what it's worth why are "map updates" still a thing in brand new
2019 cars? That's what OTA or, even better, live map fetching from the
Internet is for? And why doesn't any car manufacturer work together with
Google for the maps display?! Even a top notch BMW still looks gross compared
to Google Maps.

------
alkonaut
How can they not have designers? It's like they designed it explicitly to be
both cheap and ugly looking _and_ have a terrible UX. Making it one or the
other could at least indicate a tradeoff being made (form over function or
vice versa), but here it's just a complete horror show of too many colors,
poor layout etc.

Are "good looking" (boring looking at least) interiors such as VW or Volvos
really _that_ hard to make? Just do clean lines, a color scheme, keep things
within reach etc. This looks like it was designed by children.

------
elisto
It makes me curious to know how much is bad Ux design and how much is simply
people not being able to transition into a new set of technology since they
have grown acustomed to the previous way of doing things.

It would be interesting to see the experience that new drivers may have with
these designs and then ask them to compare it to the older version.

~~~
mrpigeonpants
That's a good point. Often when I see UX this bad, it's also usually the
result of siloed teams or designers working on individual parts without
thinking about the whole experience, and it all just gets stitched together at
the end.

I can see the console designer being like, "Oh cool, steering wheel designer
is out of room, so I get to design cruise control buttons" rather than pushing
back with, "This is a really bad idea"

~~~
ryandrake
If you've ever worked at a company whose bread and butter is hardware, you
know many of them treat software like just some other line item on the BOM:
Like a screw or nut that needs to be as cheap as possible and "meet the spec",
however insufficiently defined that spec is. I'd be willing to bet that this
attitude is what's ultimately behind crappy software in cars. They don't see
software as value-add, they see it as a cost that they grudgingly must eat in
order to barely compete with the other car companies who also have crappy
software. Yet, these companies who are so bad at software, and obviously hate
it, keep adding more and more of it into their products!

It was a lot better when you could just ignore the bad software and use your
phone for navigation/music. Now you need to use the bad software to operate
more and more essential things in the car. What's next? A big screen in front
of your face with a 10FPS animation of a steering wheel that you have to drag
around with your finger to steer?

------
realshowbiz
I for one really dislike touch screens and menu driven controls in most
applications. Especially if driving. Even controlling an iPhone is error prone
when it’s mounted to a gps holder in a moving vehicle.

Give me tactile buttons, switches and knobs that do one thing well, are keyed
with different feeling textures and are backlit.

------
floatingatoll
It took nearly 6 months to learn to accidentally stop hitting the "reduce
traction control" button in a 2013 Subaru BRZ with my arm. I considered
printing a custom cover for it. In the end it turns out I learned not to hit
it, but it's recessed and flat, unlike this Renault nonsense.

------
toolslive
I'm driving a Renault Espace Initiale, and the mug holder is placed in the
middle at shin height, below the big center block containing the stick shift.
It is impossible to insert a full can of coke without spilling some because
you have to tilt it. I'm not kidding.

------
Tokkemon
And that's why I drive a Subaru.

------
astannard
My last few cars, were a confusing mess of UI. Both of which had poorly
thought out touch screens. This Renault seems to have them both beet in bad ui
though. I miss my mini with no touch screen and simple functional buttons!

------
rkagerer
I empathize, vehicle user interfaces are becoming terrible. How about forging
a startup focused on doing outsourced UX for automobile cockpits? Aim to be
the "Apple" of design for the automotive industry.

------
tempguy9999
I assume the author is talking about user interfaces when he mentions UX,
so...

>Which is a shame because the elements of the design that don't have any
actual UX are extremely well executed (both the aforementioned cruise control,
lane assist and some minor things).

That _is_ UI design. An interface is a much broader thing than just computer
interfaces. It most certainly encompasses placement and behaviour of physical
controls.

As for the touchscreen, I got a new MP3 player a while back. I could not find
anything but touchscreens now. My old player had physical controls, I could do
the common things like skip and fast forward without thinking, without
_looking_.

The new one, well, that touchscreen - put bluntly, I hate it.

------
marmaduke
I have a recent megane with this and it really isn't a problem

------
rmykhajliw
Rented a new Opel GrandX (SUV) - the same issues described in auricle. Whole
nightmare as a car for driver.

------
nfRfqX5n
i find car UX very interesting and see them taking more chances with design
sometimes. BMW's iDrive is a great example of where they do some cool stuff
such in the music/contact search, lots of buttons, heads up display, and lots
of customization

~~~
russellbeattie
I bought a new X1 in December and I'm constantly amazed when people praise the
iDrive system. The User Experience of the car as a whole is horrific, and yet
apparently it's a great example in comparison to everything else.

Like the article, I'm amazed at the dumb or careless decisions that have been
made. No play/pause button anywhere for example (the on/off button is used
instead). Music doesn't stop until you open the car doors after shutting it
off. The backup camera doesn't turn off for several seconds - so whenever you
take your car from park to drive, it turns on the camera and then just leaves
it on for a while. Whenever my gas tank gets near to an 1/8th full an alarm
which sounds like the Law & Order theme goes off and a [!] appears in the
notifications. The nav system takes a while to start up, so you can't enter an
address for a minute or so after getting in. The air conditioning won't let
air just pass through from the outside (I'm in California, just let the
Pacific chilled air in!). Also, when BMW says you need to change your oil
(waaaay too often), you need to go through a secret reset method to clear out
the message.

Even many of the physical buttons and functionality are moronically missing.
Want to put the back seats down from the back? You have to go around front to
pull the tabs. Such a pain. Why?? I want my Kia Sportage back.

It really does make you appreciate California tech companies and their
attention to design and the customer experience.

------
Zardoz84
Things like this, make to keep my two "analogic" cars for a long time.

------
kazinator
All that my eyes can see is the six-speed stick; all else is forgiven.

------
tepper43
Definitely too many buttons

------
stef-13013
They should have used Qt :)

------
ps
So many HN folks suggest touchscreens are inferior to physical controls in
cars (safety or UX wise) and I can't agree.

Bad interface design is the culprit not the device. I did not need to read
manuals for my iPhone, Polar watches (touch), more complicated machines in the
garden, washing machine, fridge, coffee machine nor my Tesla Model S.

On the other hand using my ventilation unit controls at home was impossible
without manual (non-descriptive menu items, non-circular menu starting in the
middle so up/down matters and remembering where is the entry you need when
there are many of those you almost never need is painful).

I love my Model S and I am satisfied with its UI design with some remarks like
"Quick Controls" content I never use. There is no bullshit, no attempts to
look too fancy and hinder the experience. Complete game changer of this car is
the possibility of improving UI with software updates.

I am yet to encounter the car without touchscreen that has intuitive controls.
My current list of the cars and quirks I remember the most:

2007 Kia Ceed I do not know remember to change C to F degrees or setup clock
after owning the car for the 12 years and driving it daily for almost 5 years.
IIRC holding the Trip button (one of four in the main row of computer
controls) changes something depending on the current context. Kids like to
touch and hold buttons and I am doomed afterwards.

2011 Ford Mondeo Alerts present somewhere in the Settings. Paring the phone
requires you to push the Phone button and the Menu button. Arrows are only for
cycling, Enter is useless.

2017 Peugeot 5008 Rented it for a week on holiday, physical controls.
Interface design was complete mess - confusing icons, excessive layers
combined with "innovative"/unique naming of menu entries etc. I quit trying to
comprehend it after a while. This was one of the worst interfaces ever
encountered, on par with the Ford SYNC in the latest models I had the
opportunity to use as loaners.

2017 Mercedes GLA Same holds for Audis I've driven. Graphic design is
consistent and quite polished which might confuse you that the interface will
be intuitive and carefully designed. Animations and images accompanying any
task are definitely made for marketing purposes and sales people showing off
and to hide the difficulty of achieving the tasks you are up to. Visual clues
are often missing and using the control wheel was like spinning the roulette
and waiting for the outcome. I believe people who drive Mercedes whole live
like it and are used to it. Btw numerical keyboard in the car, really?!

2018 Volvo XC 60 Had it only for a day as a test drive, quite good, no major
issues, definitely one of the best interfaces. However the graphic design was
inconsistent and this car has touch screen.

2018 Hyundai Ioniq One weekend, no major issues for me, bad graphics design.
Do not recall if it is touch based or not, but some buttons were present.

------
riffic
eh, on the bright side your car has _the correct number_ of pedals (three).

~~~
nkrisc
My commuter-mobile hauls me from point A to point B perfectly fine with only
two.

------
close04
> There are more times than I can count on my right elbow when I deactivated
> it by accident.

The author manages to periodically elbow a button that is placed right next to
the hand-brake switch and the seatbelt buckle receptacle, below the armrest?

While that's an uninspired place to put half of the controls for assistive
driving you'd have to adopt a pretty strange driving position to hit it with
your elbow.

Edit. Downvotes aside, I found this random image as a reference [0]. I'm
having a hard time picturing the elbow naturally reaching _below_ that armrest
while driving. I'm sure someone can find a way to do it but not in any
position that a driver should have. "On the highway. Doing 120Km/h."

Even later edit. @dmitriid, any chance you can post a picture of what kind of
body position leads to such an accidental press? Don't take this the wrong
way, I am genuinely curious how the elbow can get there while driving.

[0] [http://www.renault-
me.com/CountriesData/GCC/images/cars/Tali...](http://www.renault-
me.com/CountriesData/GCC/images/cars/Talisman/otherImages/LFD-UH-
SdVAmbianceDrivingPleasure_R_ig_w965_h543.jpg)

~~~
iosonofuturista
> Downvotes aside, I found this random image as a reference [0]. I'm having a
> hard time picturing the elbow naturally reaching below that armrest while
> driving. I'm sure someone can find a way to do it but not in any position
> that a driver should have. "On the highway. Doing 120Km/h."

Not even to change gears?

On this other image I found[0], would it not be the arm rest (which folds up)
the elbow seems so much closer to the button.

[0][https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/gallery/officia...](https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/gallery/official-
talisman-is-the-name-of-the-renault-laguna-successor-will-debut-on-
july-6th_7.jpg)

~~~
close04
Sure and now the button is 25-30cm forward of the elbow, and possibly 5cm
lower. The guy in your picture would have to hold his fist against the center
console and slump a little to elbow that button.

