

Why is GoToMeeting being a scumbag? - aresant
http://bradmccarty.me/why-is-gotomeeting-being-a-scumbag

======
calbear81
There's actually a few tactics being used here that's very common in search
engine marketing (SEM) that's not necessarily intentional (at least the ad
copy part):

\- They are targeting "meeting burner" and variations as part of standard
expansion strategies. In fact, some of this could have been suggested by
Google through Keyword Suggestions. Has meetingburner filed a trademark
protection request with Google to prevent competitors from using their name in
their ad copy? Google actually doesn't protect your keyword from being a
"trigger" to show ads since they claim that the user intent is to search for
"meeting software" and both companies have relevance to that query. Usually,
if it's your brand name, you should have an exceedingly high Quality Scores
which translates to your competitors paying extremely high CPCs to even show
up against your brand. Try using "meetingburner - Official Site" to let people
know the other ad is not meetingburner.

\- The ad copy appears to be using dynamic keyword insertion so it's using
keywords being targeted to build the ads so it's something like "{KeyWord}
Software" and it could be "Meeting Burner Software" or "Online Meeting
Software" depending on the keyword being used but the ad copy can be
universally used and not specifically targeted at meetingburner. Filing a
trademark protection request with Google will automatically flag/disable
competitor ads that can trigger against your trademarked terms.

------
jaysonelliot
I've been using MeetingBurner for about 3 months now, and it's not just the
price (free) that won me over, it's the ease of use for participants compared
to the other services.

When you're dealing with clients, a bad web meeting experience can damage your
reputation, even though you had nothing to do with why it was bad.

I use Screenleap.com when I need to show things quickly, and MeetingBurner
when I'm doing a more formal meeting and need both a conference line and a
traditional screencast.

There are only two UX issues I have with MeetingBurner, and that's the need to
download an "app" each time I present (which I can deal with), and the fact
that the conference line doesn't beep when new people join the call (which
really needs to change ASAP).

~~~
webwanderings
You should check AnyMeeting. The feature set for a free account doesn't come
close in comparison with what you have suggested above.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I think these meeting services are one
of those businesses which are apparently raking dough off of Ads via general
public adoption. These are no longer just a business services.

------
calciphus
Probably because they use an automated tool for generating ads, saw this was a
"related keyword" and stuffed the search query into the opening line of the ad
so it would appear more relevant.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -
Hanlon's Razor <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlons_razor>

~~~
jack-r-abbit
There was a pretty good explanation of how this process works:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4086887>

It seems they would have had to purposely put "MeetingBurner" as one of the
keywords to be stuffed into the ad. If they truly are just that stupid then it
speaks as much about them than if they were being malicious. o_0 It sure does
look shady to me.

~~~
tomkarlo
Not necessarily. You can do wildcards in text ads where the matching term gets
inserted. Not saying that's what they did, but it definitely doesn't have to
be done by hand.

~~~
jaredmck
When you put the wildcards (DKI), it matches the keyword from your list of
keywords, not the search query. So you'd have to put MeetingBurner on a list
of keywords to have it show up here (which as others said, could be due to the
Google Keyword Suggestion Tool)

------
mintplant
This came up just a few days ago on HN [1]. The conclusion there, based on a
response from GoToMeeting's marketing department, was that they were using
Google's dynamic keyword insertion to replace words in the ad copy with the
user's search terms [2], and at the same time, bidding on their competitor's
name. So, if you'd entered "online meeting", it would've come up with "Online
Meeting Software" in the GoToMeeting ad; the technique seems to have backfired
in this case.

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4086757>

[2] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4086860>

------
ChuckMcM
It is always possible their adwords sales person suggested it. Ever since
Google prevailed in their advertising against trademarks suit [1] where they
aren't responsible for folks who buy ads against someone else's trade or
service mark I see more of it (well when I use Google anyway, which is hardly
ever :-)

I expect that some sociopath at GotoMeeting has the 'win' bit set to "we get
more referrals from Google" and they haven't had a penalty created for being
underhanded (or as they would no doubt say, competitive). Bid more for your
own name and you won't get ads on top of you. Google wins, you lose. Sorry
about that.

[1]
[http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2012/01/keyword_adverti...](http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2012/01/keyword_adverti_6.htm)
\- and many links at the end.

~~~
posabsolute
That would be my take too, some idiot sales guy thought it would be a good
idea. I'm pretty sure that does not come from management.

Obviously that goes against google ads rules and you don't want your company
ban from there if you are legit (gotomeeting seems to be)

------
carlsednaoui
Here is my point of view as a Search Engine Marketer:

\- Go to meeting is probably using Dynamic Keyword Insertion (DKI) in their
ads. This dynamically inserts a user's search query into the ad copy. From
looking at the blog post, this seems to be true for the second screenshot. For
the 1st screenshot, it seems that they are indeed building copy with "Meeting
Burner" on it.

Whether this was suggested by they in-house Adwords person, an agency or
anyone else, this is plain wrong. Not sure if you have any relationship with
anyone from the Google Adwords team, but if you do, it would be good to get in
touch with them.

Also, here is more info regarding this: [https://www.en.adwords-
community.com/t5/Ad-Approvals-and-Adv...](https://www.en.adwords-
community.com/t5/Ad-Approvals-and-Advertising/Competitor-using-my-company-
name-in-Google-Ad/td-p/31984)

Here is the Google Adwords Trademark Complaint Form:
<https://services.google.com/inquiry/aw_tmcomplaint>

If you guys need some help with your Adwords campaigns feel free to shoot me
an email (HN_user_name@gmail.com). I'd be more than happy to volunteer couple
hours to optimize your account or help you with sitelinks or retargetting.

~~~
jlarkin
As someone who does SEM, I played around with some queries, and...

-GTM is using the dynamic keyword insertion for the title of some their ads. This is not uncommon. And for the right queries, it does work.

-GTM is buying keywords for some competitors, for example, search fuzebox. On the other hand, they haven't found join.me just yet.

As an advertiser, unless there is a trademark block, you can bid on competitor
keywords. What you can't do is use competitor keywords in the title or copy of
your ad, dynamic insertion and/or copy. That second screenshot is most
troubling, as the title does not match the query (i.e. that copy was built.)

GTM needs to remove their dynamic insertion ad from their competitor ad group
and from any built copy. They should not be using competitor keywords in the
title/copy of their ads at all, so for any budding SEMs here that's really
what the issue is.

~~~
d2vid
> That second screenshot is most troubling, as the title does not match the
> query (i.e. that copy was built.)

Did you mean to say that the first screenshot was more troubling? That is the
one where the user searched "meetingburner" and the ad copy says "Meeting
Burner Software | GoToMeeting.com"

------
motoford
When I see an ad like this I always click through to make sure the offending
company has to pay.

~~~
freshhawk
_And_ by clicking back immediately you lower their quality score so they have
to bid more for the same terms.

I do the same thing, even though I know that in reality it's not making any
significant difference.

~~~
jel
While this (click-through) tactics _may_ have some cost implication, I doubt
that (even as a community) we could make a dent in the marketing budget.

In general, we severely underestimate how companies waste budget without
blinking an eye.

------
mohaps
we faced this we were running dimdim. even now this is what the ads GTM runs
for keyword "dimdim" looks like : <http://static.inky.ws/image/2152/image.jpg>

Just ignore it and build a better product.

------
Bill_Dimm
I just did the search, and the MeetingBurner name does NOT appear in
GoToMeeting's ad copy anymore.

~~~
Bill_Dimm
Maybe I am just being too cynical, but is there any way to prove that this
actually happened, rather than being a viral marketing stunt by MeetingBurner?

~~~
bradmccarty
Yeah. I took the top screenshot.

~~~
Bill_Dimm
Your blog really gives no direct info about who you are (I now see that things
would have been clarified if I had clicked through to your twitter account),
making it hard to tell whether you are truly independent or a marketing person
for MeetingBurner. Credibility really wasn't helped by your blog post being
submitted by a MeetingBurner founder (according to his/her HN profile).

Anyway, I've verified the screen shot for this post:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4096538> showing somewhat similar
behavior by GoToMeeting toward Dim Dim, so it does seem that this story is
legit.

~~~
bradmccarty
Fair enough, but yeah, there are a few clues as to who I am and the Svbtle
network is becoming pretty well known at a quick pace.

I suppose that I could update my blurb in the sidebar to better explain, but
generally speaking anyone who's reading that site is someone who knows me
anyway. Getting linked on HN is fringe case for me.

------
javajones
There are also folks who do what is known as affiliate marketing that may be
behind this. GoToMeeting may not have actually placed the ad, however an
affiliate marketer (3rd party) may have placed the ad in hopes to get click
through dollars.

------
xxiao
free for 15 people meeting, that's like 95% of the market, and I wonder if
they can sustain the business model?

when we use this kind of online conference tools, any concern on internal
IP(say, it's recorded without your knowledge)? I would like to buy similar
software to host my own conferences instead, though I don't think anyone is
doing that.

~~~
aresant
A fair question.

Without giving too much away, the uptake rate to Pro & Premium has turned MB
into a solid, profitable business less than a year after launch.

If tweaks occur to the "Free" account down the road, the MB team has
historically "grandfathered" all account levels retroactively if changes are
made moving forward.

~~~
xxiao
still in favor of a self-hosted solution and don't mind to pay for that, with
that you can compete against the legacy video conference guys, e.g. cisco,
polycom(where you set up your private system with their offering, though you
now use PC to replace the hardware part).

