
Do you know any programmers who exhibit these personality traits? - raganwald
http://lispy.wordpress.com/2008/08/25/do-you-know-any-programmers-that-exhibit-these-personality-traits/
======
raganwald
Reminds me of a story:

 _There was once a monk who would carry a mirror where ever he went. A priest
noticed this one day and thought to himself “This monk must be so preoccupied
with the way he looks that he has to carry that mirror all the time. He should
not worry about the way he looks on the outside, it’s what’s inside that
counts.” So the priest went up to the monk and asked “Why do you always carry
that mirror?” thinking for sure this would prove his guilt._

 _The monk pulled the mirror from his bag and pointed it at the priest. Then
he said “I use it in times of trouble. I look into it and it shows me the
source of my problems as well as the solution to my problems.”_

Where was I again? Oh yes, I do know someone just like the OP describes. I see
his face whenever I look at this shiny piece of glass I carry.

~~~
dangrover
There once was a monk who joined a monastery that mandated he only be allowed
to speak two words every seven years.

After the first seven years, he said "cold floors."

After the next seven years, he said "bad food."

After the next seven years, he said "I quit."

The head of the monastery replied "Well, it's no surprise, you've done nothing
but complain since you got here!"

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

~~~
jdavid
you should post them at comicwonder.com, i would like to hear you tell those
cheesy jokes.

~~~
jdavid
doh, and its not even my site.

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edw519
_Inability to absorb too many details verbally_ = personal fortitude to insist
that others show a modium of discipline and occasionally write down what they
want

 _Inability to multi-task_ = ability to focus

 _Inability to manage or even to “see” certain classes of “mundane” details_ =
ability to distinguish the difference between and "issue" and a "detail"

 _Inability to organize_ = lack of the need to organize because of intense
focus on the most important thing

 _Capable of working through entire books of information_ because of the
ability to distinguish between "issues" and "details" (see above)

 _Capable of coming up with pretty good project ideas on his own_ = creativity

 _unusual degree of empathy_ = understands the "big picture"

 _Faults tend not to show up terribly badly_ but only to those tuned in to the
"superficial", not the "important"

 _If he can team up with..._ = understands synergy

 _Is this guy sick?_ = a one eyed man in the land of the blind

~~~
josefresco
_Defensive_ \- I'm not defensive, I just have alternate definitions for your
criticisms.

------
nostrademons
Heh. That's my dad. And to a lesser extent, myself. And a couple former
bosses.

Honestly, I think it's genetic. A bunch of my dad's relatives are also like
this, and from stories I've heard of him, I think my grandfather was too. If
you're working with someone like this, it's best just to find some way to use
his talents while keeping his weaknesses from being too disruptive (eg. send
him off prototyping this pie-in-the-sky idea while everyone else handles the
day-to-day minutiae of getting stuff done). If you are this person, find a
profession where the strengths matter and the weaknesses don't. Like research,
or tech startups.

It's possible to overcome these personality traits with enough effort, but the
good goes away with the bad. I found my concentration plummeted as I became
more socially adept, as did my ability to come up with crazy-off-the-wall
solutions that nobody else thought of. And I notice a big, big performance
penalty from multitasking, moreso than most people.

~~~
jdavid
i second these remarks. this guy seems to be explaining ME, and the more
social i am, the harder it is to concentrate on code.

~~~
iamwil
I hate to pipe up with a me too, but it's uncanny how I related to what you
said.

I use to have my own office and pretty much just worked alone. While it's hard
to slip into the zone, it's great when it happens for those magical 2 or 3
hours, and you do lots of work.

Now, I'm in a room with other people, and having to pay attention to
everything else makes the zone slipping hard to do. Anyone know if self-
hypnosis works here?

~~~
mattrepl
Headphones work in two ways: as a signal to others that you don't want to be
disturbed and the audio signal should drown out environmental noise and
prevent you from becoming distracted.

And practicing meditation can't hurt, it'll help with focusing.

~~~
jrsims
I have to second the headphones idea. And if you don't think you like techno
or trance music, you might change your mind after you code while listening to
it (which is about the only time I listen to it).

Stuff with a white-noisy background and a steady, brisk rhythm tends to block
out the din of the workplace and helps me stay focused for longer periods of
time. Was the only way I could cope with the loud, obnoxious sales staff
sitting nearby. Oh, and avoid music with lyrics.

~~~
mleonhard
I like the music that was submitted to the competitions at Assembly '05, '06,
'07, etc.

ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/parties/2007/assembly07/music/instrumental

------
hooande
Why is everyone treating these things like flaws? I think this describes a
very capable and creative person. So what if he can't organize his desk or
manage his bills? Those are things that need to be done by the majority of
people so society doesn't break down. This guys sounds like one of the few
people with the skills and passion to actually make society move FORWARD.

"Curing" these problems with drugs or psychiatry sounds like a horrible idea.
This sounds like a pretty accurate description of me (as I'm sure it is for a
lot of us). If you offered me the ability to trade whatever makes me special
for the ability to do mundane things I would tell you to piss off 100 times in
a row.

Good for that guy. I bet we'll all benefit from something he created due to
his "character flaws".

~~~
many
Would it surpise us to realize that most famous figures in fact, were in life,
bastards? Abandoning their wives and children to write about dancing girls or
daisies, to claim the surf break speaks "nothingness," to drain the vitality
of those around them, to kick dogs, snort cocaine, dehumanize their
inspiration --- only to be rewarded by their coveted devotees? No, we all have
character flaws, if only for exhibiting none apparent.

------
swombat
Interesting.

What's missing, here, though, is the techniques to deal with this - yourself,
without needing to be in an environment that condones your habits.

I've got most of those traits. Yet I survived 4 years in a large business
consulting corporation, which is very unforgiving of this type of personality.
And I'm now running my own business. Both of those activities are highly
incompatible with the ADHD programmer mind.

How to do it? Well, there are many components to it. I should probably write
them up on my blog one of these days. In fact, I've been planning to, and I
probably will soon.

~~~
papersmith
Could you post your URL here? I'd be really interested to subscribe.

~~~
swombat
<http://inter-sections.net>

Please note it will come in several posts, because there's several parts to
that system.

(also, yeah, i know, I haven't posted in a while... though I intend to post
something today)

I'll try to get started on it this week, then.

~~~
papersmith
Cool, thanks :)

------
yummyfajitas
I have many of these traits. I offer the following strong suggestion to others
in this boat: treat these traits as character flaws and attempt to mitigate
them.

About 2 years into grad school is where they started to really hurt me. I
can't absorb many details verbally, and this never hurt me in classes. When
doing research, however, many ideas concerning the details existed only in my
mind or my adviser's mind. Mundane details also became extremely important,
and finishing projects is crucial.

General suggestion: be active about organization.

Some specific suggestions:

Use source control for ALL projects, and follow "best practices." It's a
matter of personal discipline as much as a way to go back in time.

Track your projects/tasks/subtasks: I like <http://www.rememberthemilk.com> ,
but a small notebook would probably be sufficient. Pick a task you are doing
_right now_ , focus on that 100%, cross it off when finished. Pick the next
task, do that 100%.

For all projects, specify an end point, or at least a point at which one stops
to reevaluate.

The good news: if I could improve myself in this regard, anyone can.

~~~
jonmc12
I have these traits as well - 'INTP from a mile away'.. Organization has
really helped me over the years, and I would agree with comments above about
social activity being stifling creatively (which basically means we live in
our own little world).

Tip for organization: Do not try to organize yourself - pay a consultant to
set up a system for you. Every time I tried to get organized by myself it
turned into another project. 2 consultants and $3k later, I had all my papers
in a filing system, and a matching file system on my HD. I was able to stick
with it and improve over time until it was something that kept me fairly
organized for the last 3 years.

Bookkeepers and accountants that have been a lifesaver to keep books in order
as well.

------
indiejade
INTP?

If so, one of the reasons he might have a hard time absorbing details given to
him verbally: for a visual thinker, there's a point where spoken verbage
(without the aide of note-taking) becomes overwhelming. It's why most of us
loathe the telephone.

------
blogimus
On inability to multitask, see threads on three separate submissions to the
same article on "The Myth of Multitasking."

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=253191>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=222451>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=232632>

------
ryan-allen
Check out the comment left by A.R.M. The INTP thing he's talking about is a
scale on the Meyers Briggs Type Inventory, though I've never seen what he's
referring to as 'extroverted intuition' exhibiting as ADD/ADHD symptoms,
interesting...

~~~
danw
I think he's mixing in a bit of 'Socionics', [0] which appears to be a Russian
equiv to MBTI.

    
    
      [0] http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Socionics

------
iigs
Scary. I started to think "I wonder if I can tell who this is to see if
they're talking about me." Meh paranoia. :)

 _If he can team up with a solid detail oriented checklist/calendar type
person, he can be an awesome supplement to a team or company. This doesn’t
always pan out due to personalities and politics, but when “the stars are
aligned” things can really hum._

Fortunately my situation diverges with the spouse thing. My wife perfectly
fits the detail oriented quote above. She laughs at me when I take a counter
full of dishes and wash everything except one pan. I feel bad for his(?)
"friend" that the situation hasn't worked out so well for them.

~~~
many
I'm actually recovering from paranoid schizophrenia. Slowly, I'm learning to
simply analyze the noise. The signal is myth.

Not to be unkind. I live in rural kansas, where often you're funny to have
called a thing by its right name.

Long day, I'm happy to be employed (finally!) but I'm broke, and my government
check for being crazy doesn't come until the first.

~~~
Herring
I guessed you were crazy

Just from looking at the way

You wrote your phrases

~~~
many
I'm sure it was an educated guess.

------
jraines
This hits home for me as well. Are these traits really as symptomatic of ADHD
as the commenters on the site are saying?

I have always disqualified myself because of this part:

 _Capable of working through entire books of information; does especially well
with brief descriptions/examples followed by exercises. Capable of working for
extended periods of time._

~~~
bestes
Yes, they are. Most people associate ADHD with hyperactivity, but there is an
'inattentive type' as well. It isn't as widely known because it mostly goes on
it your head and people around you just think you get distracted easily. Being
able to really get into _some things_ for extended periods is characteristic.

------
elai
I used to be like that, and I still am in many ways. The real reason?

He does not give a shit about the minutiae of life. He just doesn't care in an
intrinsic level. He does not get satisfaction out of it. And that is a good
thing in the long run, because those kind of tasks, as important as they may
seem to some, really get you nowhere in life. Let the bureaucrats be
bureaucrats and create things like java.

~~~
learninglisp
The irony is that it is easy for this sort of person to live only for the day,
to not be materialistic, etc. All of the things that are in the Sermon on the
Mount, but not practiced by the church at large.

This sort of person truly has meat and drink that other people know nothing
about. Just watch out for the focus to shift and for the pendulum to swing the
other way....

------
petercooper
The people commenting on that post are scary. They're making out like these
traits are uncommon or indicative of personality or mental problems, whereas
they are extremely common and usually not detrimental at all.

~~~
skmurphy
I agree, two good books on techniques for helping you manage issues related to
ADD are

Driven To Distraction by Edward M. Hallowell [http://www.amazon.com/Driven-
Distraction-Recognizing-Attenti...](http://www.amazon.com/Driven-Distraction-
Recognizing-Attention-Childhood/dp/0684801280)

Healing ADD by Dr. Daniel Amen [http://www.amazon.com/Healing-ADD-
Breakthrough-Program-Allow...](http://www.amazon.com/Healing-ADD-Breakthrough-
Program-Allows/dp/0425183270/)

------
marcus
Read <http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm> for another description
and some insights into your friend's psyche

~~~
swombat
I read this article some time ago, and while it makes some sense, I find its
utility dubious. It seems to just provide an excuse for depression, and
probably helps shove people into the "bad" direction rather than the light
one. That's a shame, no?

------
stcredzero
Why does this link have a high proportion of incoherent comments? I'm not even
to blame this time!

------
weiser
To all those who share the personality traits of this "friend" of the blogger,
how many of you believe your coding speed is slower than other hackers? From
coding speed, I mean, say amount of time to finish a well defined programming
project. Or to come up with an algorithm to solve a well defined problem and
correctly implement it.

I obviously share many of these traits, and I know for a fact that I was
slower than many of my peers in school, and later at work. I just had to spend
more time doing the same amount of work. In the end though, I was able to
produce similar results, albeit with more effort on my part.

~~~
ardit33
I have to say the oposite. I am much faster, but just getting started, is the
hardest part. There is always something else to do, procrastination is more
fun that work.

~~~
learninglisp
What is needed is someone to give permission to ignore all the other details
and just get one item done. The INTP is a commando problem solver killer... he
just needs someone to "cover" for him so he can go in and tackle an objective.

------
bluishgreen
Hit me very close to home, except for the organization part. I have a box for
every last pin that I own. And this is how I cope with it.

1.

Organize stuff around you. Make a hobby out of it, see beauty in organization.
The things that are lying around you, and they way they lie around represent
you. Any thing you do carries a bit of your personality and nothing does more
easily so than clutter ( or the lack of it ). Think of the space around you as
a painting - how would you want it to be? What this brings is clarity, clarity
is a prerequsite for focus. Good cooks have clean kitchens, great programmers
indent/refactor.

2.

I am unaware of the passage of time mostly. You wake me, hand me a book and
ask me after 10 hours how long it has been, I would say something like 2
hours. This is not good when you are working on a programming problem which
has a deadline which doesnot permit degression. You have to do it now. To
remind myself of the passage of time, I run a watch command on my linux
terminal and make it play a sound every 5 minutes. At the end of every 5
minutes I mark a point in a paper. If I was working on the problem or was
working on some GREATER cause. If I catch myself working for the greater good,
I give myself a 0 for those 5 minutes, else a 1. When you monitor yourself
like this, the mear act of monitoring and putting your awareness on how you
deal with your time at a minute level makes you focus.

( This is like rescuetime, but I want the conscious act of marking on a paper,
I think this is what helps me on a real time basis than the rescuetime report.
Besides, even when I have my editor open, I might wander into thinking about
the greater good. Only I can hold myself accountable in the end! )

3.

When I want to not focus but be creative ( yes, they seem to be opposite
states of mind, I know this from my own experience ): Say I am desiging a
large project or want inspiration I go for a long walk into the evening sun(
Leave your cell at home dammit ). The walking motion has something which
someone will probably explain using neurology in 20 years, but for now, take
it from me: for Creativity/Design walk. If I have a small scale design problem
like how to frame this function I walk inside my room, in the form of 8 ( or
infinity which ever catches your fancy ).

4.

Caffine helps a lot, after a while the act of holding and sipping hot liquid
takes over as a placebo, so you can experiment with various other less harmful
stuff. ( yes, I can fool myself: its my gift and my curse ). Trance music
helps too, The flow of most transmusic has a sense of urgency and it helps to
absorb that into your psyche and show it in your action. I am currently using
pandora for transmusic.

But the observation that the good will go with the bad is very true. I believe
that this is an engineering trade off that has been built into some of our
minds. Very much like risc vs cisc. We just need to learn how to consciously
switch to the other mode. Because afterall the real strength lies in the
"visionary streak".

I am still learning all these stuff myself, but someone said that if we had a
word for teaching while learning and learning while teaching, the world would
be a better place.

------
calpaterson
I have most of these problems, and some of the good points. I am "dyslexic"
and I'm guessing that if your friend saw a late-1990's shrink, he would be
"dyslexic" too.

I even did the cleaning thing today on my desk; some important papers get
pushed together, others got binned. Things that don't really have a place are
still lying around.

I find that when I work with organised people, I do very well.

------
david927
These traits are all the same thing: Perceiving (from the Jungian personality
types). It's pretty common, he/she's just an extreme case.

To manage it, force the opposite. If this person is micro-managed, he/she can
be a star. I've seen it happen.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator>

~~~
anthonyb
More likely, they'll snap and stab your micro-manager in the face.

~~~
learninglisp
Heh heh. A collaborator would be better. Someone that could be excited about
the right things and maybe steer a little via encouragement and reason. A
truly anal micro-manager will simply humiliate the INTP.

The creative urge is a force of nature. Discipline is not antithetical to
it... but control is pushing it. "Management" is right out. ;)

------
bestes
I would suggest seeing a psychiatrist. They might even be able to diagnose you
from this post!

There are quite a few medications that might help, like Stratara, Wellbutrion,
Ritalin, etc.

I'm not recommending this by any means (not being a doctor and all), but it's
probably worth a look.

------
llimllib
Since I always feel like I am the exact person described by these stories, I
am hereby chalking it up to bias and relegating them to absolutely minimal
relevance.

But yes, I think I'm like this person. Of course.

------
thomasmallen
It's almost like he works a little differently from how the writer is
accustomed. Autism! ADD! Medicate 'em!

It's the new witch hunt.

~~~
llimllib
(you got that it _is_ the author, right?)

~~~
thomasmallen
Right, I mistyped my comment. It is pretty autobiographical.

------
kungpaochicken
For a moment I was wondering if they were talking about me! Hits too close to
home..

------
KevBurnsJr
Wall-E

------
many
Mel, The Story of, Jr.

