

Ask HN: Interviewing at a Startup - Should I Lie About My Salary? - jamtime

First off, I just want to say that I would never advocate lying in an interview ever however I have heard from multiple sources that inflating your salary anywhere from 5-10% has now become the norm, as most companies will not investigate a potential employee's previous salary as long as it is within a reasonable range.  I'd love to hear what the community has to say on this. How great is the risk here and if you could be potentially making an additional (say) $10,000+ a year isn't taking the risk justified?
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kls
I know a lot of people on here are going to take the high road and say don't
lie, etc. But lets talk about reality and the reality is this is a
negotiation, no different than negotiating the purchase of a car from a car
salesman. You do not have perfect information. One of the areas that you lack
information is will this interviewer use the knowledge of my former salary
against me. Not only is it not uncommon but it is pretty usual. I would say
(back when I used to work for other people) 7 out of 10 times I would be put
in a situation where the interviewer was trying to leverage me down based on
knowledge of my former salary. I used to feel that this was unethical for them
to do until I understood that you are in a negotiation and for many the
standard rule of ethnics does not apply. You are simply trying to get the best
deal you can out of the situation using as many variables as you can. So given
the situation you have one of 2 choices lie to offset the possibility that
this interviewer will use the information to leverage you down, this way you
are starting form a false ceiling. Or secondly refuse to divulge that info
with an explanation that you feel it would be used against you, that you have
an aversion to lying and don't want to be forced into a situation to lie to
defend your ground in negotiating. Many interviewer do not get that form of
response and some may be impressed by your principals you could very well
frame the situation out of a negotiation by doing so, you also run the risk of
aggravating the interviewer if they press for the info and you stand firm.

So ethically what do you do, well I always like to frame the situation as a
car sale, if a car salesman asked well how much do you have to spend on the
car. What is your answer is it naturally less that the sticker on the car. You
see the sticker price is very much like your previous salary, but the car lot
has chosen to inflate it to give themselves wiggle room. Ethically few have a
problem with this even though almost every line item on the factory invoice is
a lie. It is common knowledge that they are inflated. Further if asked how
much you have to spend on the car most answer somewhere below the sticker,
trying to move that number down and reduce some of those inflated items to
somewhere closer to reality. Finally the salesman hold the knowledge as to the
true value of the car but would never offer it over as a tool in negotiating.
This would be akin to you original non-inflated former salary.

Looking at that hypothetical situation, flipping the parties and reversing the
roles you can see the ethics involved. Every modern corporation works this way
and one would be well served to remember that in the end they are dealing with
corporations. We as a society have a double standard in which corporations are
permitted to have dubious ethics as standard operating procedure while the
individual is lambasted for items as small as inflating ones salary so they
don't get cut to the bone in salary negotiation.

For me personally, I see no issue with inflating a former salary, but that is
because I am a skilled negotiator, I don't take it personal and I expect
disinformation. In a weird way I am impressed when someone bests me at the
negotiating table and most of all, I understand that the person at the
negotiating table is fighting for their scraps what they do at the negotiation
table has little reflection on what their true character is. If I found out
that an employee lied to me about a former salary, I would not terminate them,
because I understand that culturally corporations use this information all the
time to leverage them down. They are paranoid about it and rightfully so.

As for them finding out, I don't know where you are at in the world, but in
the US their is no way for them to find out unless you provide them with that
information. They cannot ask for that info from a former employer and no
employer would open themselves up to the liability of providing that info to a
third party and they cannot access any tax info on you. So short of you
providing it you should have little worry of them finding out.

On a side note, I did have an potential employer, as part of their application
process, require that I submit two pay stubs from my last job. Their excuse
was to prove that I had been employed. I know otherwise but anyways, I knew
providing this info was basically giving up my seat at the negotiation table
so I told them, that before I would provide that info that we negotiate salary
and that if they tried to renegotiate my salary based on that info that my
salary requirements would go up by 25%. So I went and interviewed, with them
and the client that they where going to place me at, the client loved me, and
wanted me to start ASAP so I had to get my paperwork in order. So I sen it all
over and wouldn't you know, all the sudden they where not able to meet the
rate that we negotiated and it just so happened that they rate they could meet
was about 7k over my old rate. I hit back with the 25% increase, stood firm
for a few days, the client was chomping at the bit and they where just trying
to get me back at the agreed upon rate. About a week later another offer from
a different company came in for what I was originally looking for, I took that
job and left the others to deal with the ramifications of their actions.

The point is employers will use this info against you even if they say they
wont. You have to ensure you look out for yourself when negotiation for
salary. You are in direct opposition to the companies interest.

~~~
kakaylor
Good advice. I wonder about this bit though

>As for them finding out, I don't know where you are at in the world, but in
the US their is no way for them to find out unless you provide them with that
information.

Professional networking tends to be a big factor when moving from job to job
(this may be extremely different in startup communities). This tends to mean
that as your career progresses, you have probably worked with 1 or 2 people at
a prospective employer. Those people are generally asked about the perspective
hire, including their estimates of what that person has made.

~~~
kls
My thought on that would be using third party hearsay to terminate an employee
on the grounds of lying (even if you proved their former salary in court)
would put you in shaky legal standing for termination. A third party could not
know your salary with any amount of certainty without access to confidential
information at the former company that would put them in legal trouble for
divulging at a new employer. I am in the states, so your millage may vary in
other parts of the world on that fact.

~~~
kakaylor
I was thinking about this at the negotiation stage, before hiring occurs. I
can't imagine that an employer would try this after the hiring stage.

As for salary information, there are other ways to know how much someone else
is making without accessing "confidential information". You can find out
socially (e.g. from them), knowing their performance combined with position,
etc.

EDIT: It is worth noting that these are facts I consider when I am
interviewing for a new job, not something I put into practice. I wouldn't tell
my current employer this information about a perspective hire, nor would I as
an employer ask for this information.

~~~
kls
Right you are correct, I think we are speaking past each other and that may be
my fault, I read somewhere in the thread about the risk of being terminated if
the employer found out and my point was more to that fact.

But yes, you do run the risk of not getting the job for being perceived as
lying. For me personally as a (small I employ 4 guys) employer, it would not
amount to a hill of beans to me, if I found out a prospect inflated his
salary.

I just have a hard time viewing it as lying in the traditional sense.
Culturally we negotiate when it comes to jobs and if I asked someone to hand
over information that would give me a strong advantage at the negotiation
table, I would expect that information to not be accurate.

The only reason to ask that question is to strengthen your position at the
negotiating table, so in effect the person asking is being just as dis-
ingeniousness as the person inflating. To call foul on the other guy for
trying to strengthen his position when the other side is doing the same, reeks
of a double standard.

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hamletdrc2
The biggest risk is that someone would lie to me during an interview, I would
hire them on good faith, and would later find out that they have questionable
ethics. Please don't lie in interviews, it's hard enough to find good people
as it is.

~~~
SHOwnsYou
Your not wanting to get ripped off (hiring a questionable employee) perfectly
demonstrates the problem posed in the original question.

Salary negotiation is inherently adversarial. It will remain that way until
employers start offering potential hires more money than they are asking for.

If someone tells you they want 80k, you aren't going to come back and tell
them that you've budgeted up to 100k. You're going to tell them maybe you can
swing 70k (another lie, like what the employee may be doing to you).

Just as you don't want to hire someone that will lie about previous salary to
get more, I don't want to work for a boss that will lie to keep more money in
the company coffer.

------
minalecs
Why lie, just tell then what you want. If for example you're making 50k, and
you want 70k ask for 80k. Usually they will tell you yes or no, negotiate, and
tell you what they can afford.

~~~
jordan0day
Many potential employers will directly ask how much you were/are making. While
presumably there's nothing wrong with just saying "I'd rather not say" and
trying to discuss what you _want_ to be making, I don't think a lot of people
feel comfortable not answering a question directly.

I completely agree with you though, both sides should be as transparent as
possible during the negotiation.

------
laughinghan
Is risk of discovery really the only thing you're concerned about?

Lying to your employer about anything seems like a compromise of ethics that
isn't be justified by you getting more money.

------
damoncali
There is a number that will cause you to walk away from the deal. Ask for
something higher than that number. Walk away if they won't meet that number.

Your old salary is irrelevant, and only serves to anchor you in a lower range.
Don't lie, just politely decline to tell them.

"I'd rather talk about what I'm worth to _you_ ".

------
Schmidt
Don't lie about what you earn now, state what you are expecting if you're
hired.

I've neve been asked the question about my current salary (expect for that one
phone call from a recruiter in the UK).

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retube
I definitely wouldn't, certainly not in the UK. If you're caught out, it's
grounds for dismissal. And the vast majority of employers will seek your P45
and pay slips from your current job. However, it is perfectly reasonable to
expect an uptick on moving: this is to compensate you for the risk and
overheads of moving. Most employers will expect to have to pay you more.

------
dgreensp
Who says your new employer has to pay you your old salary? Don't lie, just ask
for the salary you want.

If you're worried about the "what was your old salary" question, see:
<http://bit.ly/fy9zDt>

~~~
mapster
uh-uh. so you assume the company just wants to be fair? As previously
described, its a business negotiation. Your only as good as your last salary.

------
hcho
Don't lie but don't tell either. Tell them that in a negotiation anyone who
gives a number first gets a worse deal, hence you won't tell. After all, they
are a startup and should appreciate some street smartness.

