

Woobius introduces the construction industry to 21st century collaboration - swombat
http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009/06/05/woobius-introduces-the-construction-industry-to-21st-century-collaboration/

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cunard-n
I have a comment. I have been urging my confreres to use basecamp and actively
looking for other collaborative tools. To little or no avail. Old-school is
real. I can say that much. But the questions old-school types ask is usually
based not on price or speed, but on CYA and security. For CYA, once you upload
something then everyone has it and they can criticize it. If there is a
mistake somewhere it is visible to everyone forever. For security, the issue
is that fear:"what if this gets into the wrong hands?" "What if it gets into
the "right" hands, but at the wrong time?" Consider jobs for clients like
government: "What if the media gets hold of this?" Also, don't underestimate
the tendency of people like me to look at all that work in its native file
formats like word and AutoCAD and say: "hell if I will put this out there!"
Reading this I know it sounds un-progressive. Fearful, even paranoid. I am
being honest. This stuff is people's life's work, their reputation, their
self-esteem...and so on and so on. So these are the things people think when
collaborative web-based tools come up. The reason I put this here is just to
point out that your PR task would seem to me to be reassuring the bosses that
it is "safe." Look at legislation and IP precedent. Tell us exactly what
protects us. Nice job, Woobiusers. Especially on the pricing. Good luck.

~~~
swombat
I think part of the way forward on this is to realise that you don't actually
have that control, even today.

We touched on this in our Be2Camp North presentation:
<http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/1509410> (it's about 20 minutes long - there
are a bunch of other presentations in the same stream, after ours).

When you send a file to someone, anyone, you are trusting that person with
your file. They can send it on to anyone else they want. They can burn it to a
CD. They can print it out and leave it lying around. They can show it to
someone at the wrong time. Etc. When people need to send a file to someone,
they will - no matter what barriers you put in their way. If you put barriers,
they will always go around them some way, either by burning a CD, sending an
email, or printing it out.

The more disorganised your modes of communications, the more likely that is to
happen by mistake rather than intentionally. And the more disorganised and ad-
hoc your communications the least visibility you have over all this.

To your colleagues, I would say, perhaps bluntly, that the control they feel
they have is an illusion. There is no control, once you send a file to someone
else - there is only trust. The nearest thing to control you might have is
visibility - to be able to at least see who downloaded what when. And that,
you can get through the Woobius audit log.

Does this help?

~~~
Musashi
You can develop an Access Management system (or integrate with a COTS). You
can watermark the files with timestamp and username. Thus allowing you to
track who let the documents go into the wild. Based on Meta data, you can
restrict access to different files and restrict the client's ability to
display those documents.

None of those tasks are trivial and all of them can be worked around. You
aren't building a military grade secure system, so, perhaps what you are doing
is good enough. I'd start with Access Management and add visibility controls
on documents.

------
joel_feather
The pricing is too low. It's a niche market, people are prepared to pay more
for things that work. However, you need to offer desktop clients to upload the
files, because I would believe that architects work with pretty large files -
uploading using a webform on a website is painful.

Also, it's easier to sell an actual piece of software to old school companies
than a pure web service. Throw together a 'POST' client in C# and you're done
in a day.

~~~
stcredzero
Niche market? The construction related part of the economy is huge! I think
their pricing is just right. By charging more for additional storage space,
they have an ideal "try before you buy" situation.

Mobile clients might be very useful. Missed collaboration in construction
often results in stuff that cost money to put there and more money to correct.
The ability for those in the field to get clarification quickly could save
lots of money.

~~~
joel_feather
Mobile is a waste of time. Mobile apps are too cheap, people can just call
each other. And the construction industry is a niche, because we're talking
about the intersect of construction and web apps here.

The web designer industry is a niche in the overall economy, but it's one of
the largest in the web based economiy. The reverse is true for the
construction industry.

I have experience in selling B2B. Their pricing is wrong.

~~~
crowley
By the same token you could argue that burning CDs and printing out reams of
paper to send via couriers is adequate, and that a system of distribution via
the internet is a waste of time. Mobile applications aren't necessarily a
replacement for voice communication, but rather an enhancement to.

For example, what better way to communicate information that pertains to a
particular geographical location than providing a map with the location
clearly marked on it? Add photos into the mix, taken on site with their
positions marked and even the direction in which the photo was taken and you
can save yourself a thousand words.

As for the price of mobile applications, only a small percentage of mobile
applications are stand-alone anyway, the majority being integrated with much
bigger systems in order to expand, enhance and mobilize the workflow. We don't
expect to butter our bread with mobile applications, but we do intend to
increase the usability and usefulness of our system.

~~~
joel_feather
Without a doubt, mobile applications make sense. But the amount of time you
would put into this at this fledgling stage of the business would be a big
mistake - one should first focus on the web based part of things, iterate till
it matches the needs perfectly, then make a simple mobile app and expand from
there.

Trying to make some large mobile app would bog down the business, and it will
not pay.

~~~
crowley
The misconception there is that a mobile app need be large, or indeed that we
are (or intend to) plough effort into one while we still have more important
things to do.

But that doesn't stop us planning, theorizing and experimenting. How else is
innovation manifested? :-)

------
mvaerle
I think the title (and article) is a little over the top. The audit trail is a
nice feature but the rest is just sharing files?

The real problems are in annotating these drawings collaboratively, merging
separate parts and layers of buildings and in general managing the actual flow
of information in a design process instead of merely the drawings. Solutions
with versioning IFC files, IFD libraries and solving the problems in this area
are far more important (and complicated unfortunately). Think like: Which
parts of the building were modified in the last version by the architects and
how does that influence the building costs? Is the old construction still
valid and if not which parts cause conflicts, etc...

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the innovation that woobius does on the user
interface side is really great and that they managed to get featured on
techcrunch is also great to get more attention to this topic, so all the good
to them!

~~~
bsyl88
Hi, I'm the founder of Woobius. Firstly, thanks for your kind words on the
user interface. We are fortunate to have Cliff Rowley who been a key driving
force behind it.

With respect to the body of your comment. The reason Woobius is useful to
architects and engineers is that it fits into their existing workflow - e.g.
they produce a 2D drawing that forms part of their legal documentation. While
this process is (for all intent and purposes), basic, it's often neglected.
Being practicing architects ourselves, we realised that by making this easy
and efficient, our collaboration cost can be dramatically reduced.

I believe that once we have achieved this first step, we can start to tackle
the more complex issue of allowing collaborative annotation on drawings
themselves. Hopefully, by which time we would be in position to annotate a 3D
model even!

~~~
mvaerle
Hi, thanks for your response. I think I just expressed my hopes so I
understand it's just a start. I am currently researching annotating /
versioning 3d building models however I feel greatly restricted by all the
format wars in 3d / CAD land (collada, csg vs brep, autodesk land, ifc
(2x3/2x4) and on and on. Does anyone have thoughts on this subject?

------
terpua
Congrats Daniel. It's like Basecamp for architects. Re: your TC comment - is
that 3000 users or customers?

~~~
swombat
Thanks. It's users, sadly :-) But we'll get there...

~~~
mahmud
Please please please, set your aim really high: think International. Look into
project management and scheduling. Look _beyond_ the web app, and certainly
beyond the typical $5/mo "monetization". Don't hesitate to offer customized
versions and certainly solicit and implement user feature requests. Look into
all the industry standards, laws and regulations. The more you learn about
construction the better it will reflect in the quality of your product. Reach
out to industry groups that your users are members of. Read their trade
publications. Attend their conferences. Befriend architects, and actually
become friends with them.

That's what I want to tell my younger self when I was working on my first
start up, 1999 - 2001.

------
SwellJoe
Dragging industries into the current century always _seems_ like a great idea.
But, there's often a reason why the industry is still stuck where they are,
and it's usually not technical. (I can't say I haven't been tempted to try
this on more than one occasion, though. So many industries are so old school
as to be painful for a nerd to even look at. So much time being wasted every
day on old processes and methods, it's quite sad.)

~~~
swombat
100% agree. Woobius's success so far is not due to some especially advanced
technology, but to the fact that we're strongly connected in that industry
(Bob, my cofounder, is himself an architect) and so we've been able to build a
tool that adapts to the way they already work, rather than trying to force
them into some new processes.

Essentially, what allows us to reach this market is the user interface work
rather than the hard technology, if you see what I mean.

~~~
edw519
"...we've been able to build a tool that adapts to the way they already work,
rather than trying to force them into some new processes."

Good for you. Getting users to change is like trying to get them to eat an
elephant. The best way to do it is one bite at a time.

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khandekars
Congratulations. I also read your article about document control, and
immediately liked your approach. For example, restricting folders to just one
level and not folders-within-folders, seems to have helped you in eliminating
gratuitous complexity.

Side question out of sheer curiosity: Do you have AutoLISP/ObjectARX plugins
that interact with your site?

~~~
swombat
We don't have such plugins yet, but our system is built with the eventual
release of an API in mind (so that any number of clients could connect, not
just the Flex client)... if you want to build something that interacts with
it, just contact me and I'll see how we can help you.

------
malte
First of all, congrats on your TC coverage.

I'm interested in your approach for the pricing of the service. I have to
agree with joel_feather that 12$/gb/month seems a little too low for a niche
market. Do you have any estimates about the average storage needed by your
targeted users?

~~~
swombat
Thanks for your comment.

I won't go into all the detail of the lengthy, lengthy conversations we had
about pricing over the course of a year before finally implementing it, but
you're right that the price is low. However, that's intentional.

There are already products serving really big projects (the ones with costs in
the hundreds of millions), but those tools are all far too expensive (and
complex, slow, cumbersome, etc) to be used by smaller projects. We chose to
make Woobius affordable to smaller projects too.

With respect to average size of projects, many of the tinier projects (e.g. a
small house) will probably just about get away with the free version (but if
they need a bit more storage, £10/m - or equivalent in other currencies -
won't break the bank). Small-ish commercial developments will probably use
around 1-3 gigabytes. Very large or very active projects are probably looking
at 5-10 gigabytes.

------
tedshroyer
I've worked in the residential construction space several decades as a
surveyor, draftsman and software developer. I tried with some friends to
approach the whole workflow from customer contracts through plans, estimates
and purchasing to finish product. It ended up being too large of a scope for a
few people part time on it. I think picking a small piece of that workflow and
improving it is a smart choice.

------
sho
It would be a cold day in hell before I decided to engage the services of a
company called "Woobius".

Seriously, am I the only person on earth who thinks all these new startup
names are just _utterly stupid_? What are these people thinking? "Woobius"!

~~~
pclark
I look past names and use them for the problems they solve.

~~~
sho
Well, more power to you I suppose. I just see it as laziness on the part of
the founder, and I can't overlook it.

edit: you can mod me down all you like, swombat, but I'm just stating what I
think, and I doubt I am alone.

~~~
davidw
He actually can't downmod your original comment, because he submitted the
story.

I don't much care for the name either, but in the long run, I don't think it
matters much. "Google" doesn't sound very serious, "Yahoo" speaks for itself.
"Micro" "soft" has been the butt of jokes for a while. Unix is a pretty awful
name in its own right. And so on and so forth...

~~~
sho
"Unix" sounds freaking awesome compared to "Woobius". As do the others.
Microsoft is a fantastic name, what are you talking about?

I think more than a few founders here are in denial about their companies'
ridiculous names, but whatever, it's not my fight. Hey guys, if modding down
my (polite, reasonable) comments makes you feel better about naming your
company something a 3-year-old would laugh at, have at it.

[edit: the having-at-it has commenced all right, but are people really
defending these crappy names? I might come across as an asshole but I am
actually serious here - I think these names are awful! I think they are
costing otherwise good companies customers! What is wrong with telling the
founder community to try harder?]

~~~
menloparkbum
_if modding down my (polite, reasonable) comments_

Your initial comment said it would be a "cold day in hell" before you used
Woobius and that the name was "utterly stupid." That's an interesting
interpretation of polite and reasonable.

~~~
sho
I don't see what's impolite or unreasonable about that. I really do think the
name is stupid, and I really would be prejudiced against a company with a name
like that.

I suppose I could have said the name is "suboptimal" or something but why beat
about the bush?

~~~
menloparkbum
Are you my ex-girlfriend?

"You're ugly and stupid!!! I'm not being mean, those are simply the facts!"

~~~
sho
Never said they were facts, just my opinion.

So, she's free, then ..? :D

