
Transforming NYC's Payphones into a 'Personalized Propaganda Engine' - miraj
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/google-is-transforming-nycs-payphones-into-a-personalized-propaganda-engine-8822938
======
walterbell
Alphabet's NYC kiosks also have two cameras which are recording passers-by,
[https://cryptome.org/2016/06/linknyc-spy-kiosks-
installation...](https://cryptome.org/2016/06/linknyc-spy-kiosks-installation-
videos.htm)

A dystopian "smart city" vision can be seen in the "Hyper Reality" video,
[http://hyper-reality.co](http://hyper-reality.co) that is inspired by Magic
Leap's AR, in which Google is an investor.

~~~
ucaetano
Or the Syndicate Wars intro sequence:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGvIrf86g4Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGvIrf86g4Y)

~~~
sevensor
Or the _Self-Aware Colony_ Secret Project video from SMAC.

------
heheocoenev
I was walking down 3rd ave at 2am a week ago. I saw a homeless man with
headphones listening to music on YouTube on a link. He had a little chair and
was rocking out. It was beautiful.

We might give up a lot, but maybe those with nothing to give have plenty to
gain.

~~~
krschultz
I came here to say something similar. I've seen many people using them all
hours of the day & night. People are watching music videos, charging their
phone, getting directions, and surfing the internet. The people using them are
often those that don't have the luxury (necessity?) of walking around with a
nice smart phone and a big data plan.

Do they have ads on them? Of course. So do the bus shelters which are funded
using a similar public/private partnership.

If you are worried about the data collection, don't use them or the wifi
provided by them. But you are basically saying you trust
Verizon/AT&T/T-Mobile/Sprint with your data more than you trust Sidewalk
Labs/Google. Is that an informed tradeoff?

~~~
walterbell
Google's business model is based on selling user-generated data to
advertisers, unlike telcos who sell network data _to you_.

See Harvard professor Shoshana Zuboff's video on Surveillance Capitalism,
[https://vimeo.com/110222526](https://vimeo.com/110222526)

NYC has the leverage to negotiate better financial terms for capturing the
value of city residents data. The money generated _from_ harvesting city
resident behavior can then be invested into city infrastructure and services
for residents.

Data and networks are here to stay. What is open for negotiation is the split
of revenue between city residents and vendors. For example, kiosks could be
funded as neutral infrastructure that could be shared by competing vendors. A
city itself is "shared infrastructure".

~~~
morgante
> Google's business model is based on selling user-generated data to
> advertisers, unlike telcos who sell network data to you.

Really? Where?

I have worked on some large marketing projects. We'd _love_ to be able to buy
user data from Google.

This facile argument is really getting old. When you get a free newspaper,
does that mean you're getting "sold?"

~~~
hueving
Google generates most of its revenue from selling targeted ads to advertisers.
A targeted ad is selling data about users.

Just because you aren't looking directly at the data doesn't mean you are
getting information as a result of it.

~~~
morgante
> A targeted ad is selling data about users.

That's a lazy and incorrect causal link.

Google goes to great lengths _not_ to sell user data. It's far more valuable
if they can hold on to it and use it to continue selling advertising.

It's important to understand the difference. This isn't a great metaphor, but
imagine a top university. The professors at said university have accumulated
many Nobel prizes. The university uses those Nobel prizes to sell classes to
students. Does that mean the university is selling Nobel prizes? Obviously
not.

Google uses data to target advertising. That doesn't mean Google's business is
selling data.

~~~
hueving
Targeted ads are worthless if they aren't targeted based on correct data.
Google would lose massive amounts of advertising if they didn't heavily base
it on user data.

As an advertiser, Google's ability to target users based on user data is very
important to me, so your analogy with Nobel prizes at University misses the
mark by a mile.

If Google doesn't let me target users in a region with a specific interest,
then I will just go to Facebook.

~~~
morgante
> Targeted ads are worthless if they aren't targeted based on correct data.

A university without well-respected and celebrated faculty is similarly
"worthless." In fact, the gap in price between community colleges and
prestigious universities might even be _greater_ than the gap between targeted
ads and non-targeted ads.

> As an advertiser, Google's ability to target users based on user data is
> very important to me, so your analogy with Nobel prizes at University misses
> the mark by a mile.

As a student, the prestige of an institution and the prizes it's faculty
receive is an important component of choosing to purchase education there.

There's a reason that college admissions brochures love to tout the number of
Nobel prizes their faculty have received.

~~~
hueving
>A university without well-respected and celebrated faculty is similarly
"worthless".

Not even close. As an undergrad you are getting ripped off if you choose a
research university. As a student the product you are getting is an education,
which has little to do with research quality.

Targeted ads depend entirely on accurate user data, so the analogy is a bit
brain dead.

>There's a reason that college admissions brochures love to tout the number of
Nobel prizes

Yes, to attract chumps. Anyone who does the minimum amount of research or
thinking will quickly discover that nobel prize winners are approximately
useless to undergraduate educations. Nobel prizes are the gold plating to the
hdmi cables of education.

~~~
morgante
Your argument has devolved to insults. Goodbye.

Calling consumers "chumps" doesn't change the fact of their choices.

------
kbenson
_As he spoke, the screens shifted and a new message appeared: "If You See
Something, Say Something. Be Suspicious of Anything Unattended."_

Okay, that's kind of creepy.

 _[Google] actually went so far last year as to shit-can its own "Don't be
evil" admonition to its employees in favor of "Obey the law"_

No, they didn't[1]. Alphabet has a slightly more formal code of conduct[2],
and it's not simply "Obey the law", it's "follow the law, act honorably, and
treat each other with respect." Sloppy. Reporting using another news article
as a source rather than just looking it up.

1: [https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-
conduct.html](https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html)

2: [https://abc.xyz/investor/other/code-of-
conduct.html](https://abc.xyz/investor/other/code-of-conduct.html)

~~~
EGreg
_" If you see something, say something"_ (spanish _" Si ves algo, di algo"_)
is NYC's campaign in the aftermath of terrorism, and has been going on for
over a decade. Its origins are not creepy and at this point most of the city's
population is used to it. You can see it especially on any MTA properties such
as subways, where they worry unattended luggage may contain a bomb, so they
ask people to report such.

~~~
funkdobiest
Yes the crazy thing is I remember going to London back in 90, and at that time
in the US, most major stores would request that you checked backpacks in
before going into the store, to prevent theft. I walked in to Tower records in
Piccadilly Circus and handed my bag, expecting they would give me a claim
check, and they were freaking out. As they had been sending out the same
message at that time due to the IRA bombings. So they gave me the full
instruction about unattended bags and how they were more worried over
terrorism than theft. Crazy how it is common here 20 years later.

------
paulgb
> They're telling you that they can use your IP address, which is essentially
> you, and all of the pages you've viewed or searched for, including how long
> you visited them, to serve ads.

You don't bring your own IP when you use public WiFi, so this feels like a
very confused argument.

~~~
tekacs
You do however bring (and broadcast) your MAC address, which was mentioned as
permissible to collect.

~~~
avn2109
Which is pretty spoofable.

~~~
tekacs
True, although that's hardly common and completely impossible on many embedded
devices - devices which are only becoming more common.

~~~
detaro
don't iPhones do that by default? Not sure if it is common in Android-land by
now, my old-ish phone required a custom ROM for that.

~~~
__david__
Sort of [1]. It also sounds like it's just for scanning networks. If you ever
actually connect it still uses your real MAC.

[1] An older article about the feature that may be out of date:
[http://9to5mac.com/2014/09/26/more-details-on-how-
ios-8s-mac...](http://9to5mac.com/2014/09/26/more-details-on-how-ios-8s-mac-
address-randomization-feature-works-and-when-it-doesnt/)

------
andrewtlove
While I certainly understand the paranoia here (hell, I uninstalled PokemonGO
due to the invasive permissions), I see the positive here far outweighing the
negative. The Internet is becoming akin to fresh air or clean water—a right
for all citizens, not just those with means. I don't know the percentage, but
there are a huge number of New Yorkers who can't afford Internet and are
missing out on the digital world we're all engaged in on a daily basis.

As a New Yorker, I heartily welcome a city blanketed in free wifi. For the
300Mbs I get off of one of those things, I'll use a VPN just like I do with
all public wifi networks.

~~~
darkstar999
> I uninstalled PokemonGO due to the invasive permissions

They are fixing that.

[https://support.pokemongo.nianticlabs.com/hc/en-
us/articles/...](https://support.pokemongo.nianticlabs.com/hc/en-
us/articles/222648408-Permissions-update)

~~~
BHSPitMonkey
I think that went out yesterday.

------
morgante
Funny, I don't see the Village Voice writing screeds about how terrible it is
that NYC has a subway system or busses, even though advertising (ie.
"propoganda") helps to underwrite their costs as well.

~~~
spot
even more funny: the village voice is ad supported.

------
jswny
I really do hope that by now, everyone knows not to do anything they wouldn't
want the public to know about on public WiFi, especially these systems. Using
a VPN when you are on public WiFi such as this helps solve a lot of the
privacy problems that you face using said service.

~~~
fluxquanta
>I really do hope that by now, everyone knows not to do anything they wouldn't
want the public to know about on public WiFi

What's your definition of "everyone"? Those of us in the tech bubble? Sure.
Your everyday smartphone user? The internet's just the internet to them, and
where it comes from is not a concern.

------
danjc
I'd really like to hear from a domain expert whether tor or something like it
could a) drastically mitigate the impact of this type of surveillance and b)
how likely it is that it (tor) could become mainstream (sort of like WhatsApp
made end to end encryption mainstream)?

~~~
typeiierror
When you take into account the full range of tracking methods cited in the
article, I think the impact of Tor would be limited. For example: you probably
already have an app on your phone that has an SDK from Gimbal (beacon company
in the article) or a similar firm that reads beacons and tracks your location
passively. So while Tor would disguise the source of your web requests, the
SDK still has free reign to send your location and your Ad ID back to the
mothership.

~~~
schoen
We have at least five different kinds of problems with mobile device privacy
here:

\- Apps that intentionally identify you and your location to _somebody_ (like
apps that have permission to use location services, supposedly for some user
benefit, and tell the app developer that location)

\- Apps that intentionally reveal your presence in a physical location to
other devices nearby

\- Apps that unintentionally identify you to a network operator or wiretapper
(because of unencrypted unique identifiers like cookies)

\- Aggregate device profiling because of a unique combination of observable
behaviors (e.g., this person has this OS version and this combination of apps)

\- Observability of hardware and subscriber identifiers in the RF protocols

All of these are bad for privacy, but the way of fixing them is different.

Tor helps a lot with the third one. To deal with the others, apart from
somehow getting that software not to exist or not to be installed on people's
devices, it could be sufficient to make some of the software _not communicate
on the network_ at certain times or in certain ways, like if the OS could say
"maintain radio silence, except for Tor-aware apps".

For the device RF identifiers, we need the ability to change those
identifiers, which is kind of sort of there for wifi on some devices (except
there was just a paper showing it often doesn't succeed in protecting you),
and not there at all for mobile network interfaces.

------
spdustin
This sounds eerily like the plot of Watch Dogs

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watch_Dogs](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watch_Dogs)

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Google has repetitively made their interest in running cities public, Larry
Page talks about it often. While this article is primarily focused on the Wi-
Fi efforts in New York City, Google has been working with other cities to
replace management of public transit and parking enforcement.

~~~
jessaustin
Then they've chosen city services that definitely could stand for some drastic
improvement.

------
davidf18
400 mbs/200 mbs data rates in Manhattan on the Mac laptop where I've tried it.
The iPhone 6s+ with the security cert. is about 185 mbs/195 mbs.

Not bad for free.

~~~
Neeek
I pay 120 AUD a month for 35Mb/s down and a 1GB cap here in Brisbane,
Australia :c

~~~
davidf18
Well, may the (Google) force be with you in your future.

------
ISL
For the alternate perspective: [https://www.link.nyc](https://www.link.nyc)

------
op00to
I'd love to see a thoughtful article on what it took to get these kiosks
installed, or what awesome tech is inside, or what the traffic looks like, or
what lessons we can learn. How is tin foil hat-ism making the world better for
those who are most benefiting from being able to access these kiosks?

------
bogomipz
'That LinkNYC is, ultimately, underwritten by Google should tell you a lot
about why New York got so very lucky as to receive an unprecedentedly fast
network of citywide public Wi-Fi — for "free."'

Except that none of this is free. Google gets all of the data collected by
these kiosks and the ad revenue. Why was this allowed without any public say
in the matter? The very public whose data was bought will also be sold by
Google. What's the ad revenue worth on these? There are ads on each sides of
these kiosks. These are effectively billboards on some of the most trafficked
street on the planet. Does our society really need more advertising?

So did New York get lucky or did Google get lucky?

~~~
bogomipz
There is a really disturbing trend on HN whereby expressing anything negative
about Google, gets down voted.

I've actually spent a fair amount of time around these kiosks as theres one a
few blocks from me. I've actually observed it its environment, as part of the
urban scenery and I've interacted with it a bunch. I think my comment has
merit.

------
noneya
My new startup is building a system like this out for retailers. It has the
added benefit of helping customer service personalize a shoppers experience as
well as connecting digital ad spend (ads and landing page vidits) with foot
traffic in both real-time and aggreated. Prototype is built and we are
currently seeking investors and developers that would like to help us flesh
this out. Pm me for details or questions.

~~~
noneya
FYI. Our system can also do "minority report" based ad retargeting. Also, we
have a few large retail/auto dealers ready to deploy sooner then later. We are
getting there but things could be moving much quicker with a little capital
for additional developers, etc.

------
michaelbuddy
The village voice talking about another company being a propaganda engine is
laughable. Also VV requires logging into Facebook to leave a comment on that
story too.

------
yk
I don't know if I should be impressed or scared. Everything google^1 does in
the last few years feels like they really know what they are doing, autonomous
cars, everything they do about machine learning, now they are integrating that
with fiber. It feels like Microsoft, if they would have nailed the browser and
activeX in 95.

^1 I will use alphabet and google interchangeably, since I am not trying to do
math here. If you are looking for a mathematical theory of world domination,
just ask google's famously responsive customer service.

------
bahjoite
A ++good piece. I particularly liked this astute observation by one of the
article's sources:-

> "They are working hard to get you to behave true to your statistical
> profile," Rushkoff says, "and in doing so they reduce your spontaneity, your
> anomalous behavior, your human agency, as they try to get you to conform to
> the most marketable probable outcome. When we're doing that en masse, to an
> entire city - that kind of long-term manipulation is just astounding."

------
Vexs
If they're serving ads based on personal information, some people might have a
little embarrassment heading their way.

Jokes aside, we all knew this was coming, right? It's not like your telecom
isn't serving you up to the NSA already, and with this you know you're being
watched. It's just driving VPN sales.

------
feralmoan
Welcome To City 17

------
speps
The irony: "This website (villagevoice.com) wants to know your location"...

~~~
smacktoward
It would only be comparable if they didn't bother asking.

~~~
curiouscats
I don't think this has anything to do with the website asking instead of just
collecting. The "wants to know" is based on browser settings to not just share
your location without approval.

------
ucaetano
I counted 21 cases of mostly targeted ads in that single article.

~~~
jolux
And what makes you think the author of that article has any control over the
business model of the publication they're writing for? Are we not allowed to
criticize ad tech online in ad supported venues? Because all of the most
popular venues are ad supported. If you want a voice, you have to make
compromises.

~~~
unethical_ban
A digital ocean VPS is $5 a month. Is village voice.com really that big a
draw?

~~~
pjc50
Presumably villagevoice actually pay their writers?

~~~
morgante
Presumably installing free wifi kiosks actually costs money.

~~~
jolux
Yeah but is this something anybody asked for? The signal is always so great in
NYC I never even want WiFi. This just seems like a largely pointless intrusion
in service of selling more and more targeted ads.

~~~
morgante
Not everyone can afford (large) data plans. Look at some of the other comments
in this thread for anecdotes of people enjoying the free access.

Also, your experience with service definitely doesn't match my own. There
might always be a signal, but it's not always very fast...

~~~
jolux
Well this is in comparison to my home in rural Vermont where the signal is
always very spotty. I realize people enjoy it but ultimately this was not
voted on and thus saying "you asked for it therefore you must deal with the
compromise" is a bit shitty. I think I'd enjoy it too if I didn't know the
tradeoff, and even then gigabit WiFi would be pretty cool. However Google are
not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, if they were they would
not put ads on it. Of course then the taxpayers would have to foot the bill,
which would be severely unjust considering the undemocratic nature of this
product's implementation in NYC.

------
busterarm
This is very hit-piece and I'm someone generally wary of Google.

Titan has owned and operated all of the city's remaining phonebooths for near
20 years. And I believe the MTA bus stop and subway advertising too. This is
something they've already been doing.

Control Group developed those info kiosks you may have seen on subway
platforms. They're good people that have got some cool tech. They even post in
Who's Hiring here frequently (Hi, Ben!).

If this is something that the city wants, I don't see that there's another way
that they would get it. The real problem that I have with LinkNYC though,
especially in midtown where I live, is that all the terminals have become 24/7
campgrounds for the city's homeless. They charge their phones and browse the
web there. There is no way that I would use one of these things now.

~~~
ComodoHacker
>They charge their phones and browse the web there.

What exactly is the problem with that?

~~~
busterarm
With charging phones? Nothing.

But the reality is that one person is sat camped out with a chair in front of
the thing for the entire day. Nobody else can use it. I've seen folks get in
fights over these things already.

I spent part of my life homeless. I still see a major problem with how these
things are being used right now. We shouldn't be encouraging people to be out
on the street all day -- it doesn't solve anything.

~~~
rmxt
What do you propose as an alternative? Charge them 25c for an hour of use?

I find it hard to blame the homeless (as you are) for taking advantage of a
free perk, when it should be the cities and companies being held accountable
for returning some portion of the profit back to those whom they are profiting
from. Alphabet wants the information -- do you think they would have turned
down a request to say that some nominal percentage of the revenue goes back to
city social service programs?

~~~
busterarm
Alphabet is paying the city money here.

The city should be kicking some of this money into infrastructure/services to
help the homeless. Instead right now they're doing massive cuts and leaving
people to the streets.

~~~
ComodoHacker
Aren't these kiosks an infrastructure/service to help anyone, including
homeless?

Imagine some homeless spends a day at the kiosk and gets a remote job that
requires an hour or so a day of online presence. And he/she can _actually_
perform this job thanks to this infrastructure. A couple of months later
he/she spends another day at the kiosk and finds an affordable apartment (most
likely not in NY). And Voila, we have -1 homeless.

~~~
busterarm
Imagine all the homeless that can't be helped because the one angry violent
guy you know that is HIV+ and likes to fist-fight is camped out there all day.

This is a real concern when you're homeless. [http://www.nydailynews.com/new-
york/nyc-homeless-prefer-stre...](http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-
homeless-prefer-streets-violent-shelters-article-1.2564370)

Also, I'm talking about a real guy. He's frequently camped out at the LinkNYC
terminals on my corners. (55th & 8th and 56th & 8th).

Of course this is HN where everyone is a self-made success and it's easier to
pretend we care about the poor than actually care about the poor. I've been
down this road here before.

