
German government expands subsidies for electric cars - reddotX
https://www.dw.com/en/german-government-expands-subsidies-for-electric-cars/a-51113225
======
gibolt
It is pretty blatant that they are increasing it by 50% to support
Volkswagen's conversion to electric.

Most of the other comments seem quite negative. It is protectionism, but it
applies to most electric cars and is a step in the right direction. It is late
and selfish, but better than the alternative.

~~~
fluffything
Not only VW, any company can opt-in to the subsidies: the state pays half and
the company the other half.

What's funny is how the requirement of a <= 60k EUR car price means that those
buying a Tesla won't get any subsidies. It's kind of understandable though: in
Germany most cars are sold in the 10-20k EUR range, so it would be political
suicide to create a subsidy to pay for what most citizens consider a luxury.
Subsidizing cars in the 40k-60k EUR is quite outrageous already IMO.

~~~
thinkcontext
Tesla Model 3 has a base price of 44.5K EUR.

[https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/13/tesla-model-3-vs-
bmw-3-...](https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/13/tesla-model-3-vs-bmw-3-series-
in-germany-3x-better-model-3-could-save-owner-e10000-in-4-years/)

~~~
richardknop
That's an expensive car in European standards. 20k is what most people pay for
a car here. 45k car is a luxury imho.

~~~
jlg23
Which Europe are you talking about? 20k gets you a halfway decent Dacia at
best...

~~~
fluffything
For 48k EUR I can buy a decent Porsche Panamera, for example.
[https://www.autoscout24.de/angebote/porsche-
panamera-4-s-ind...](https://www.autoscout24.de/angebote/porsche-
panamera-4-s-individual-fond-tv-belueftung-bose-benzin-schwarz-)

For 20k EUR I get a decent Mercedes C 220:
[https://www.autoscout24.de/angebote/mercedes-
benz-c-220-c-kl...](https://www.autoscout24.de/angebote/mercedes-
benz-c-220-c-klasse-lim-c-220-bluetec-d-diesel-weiss-
debc3d6a-bd45-4696-a93d-2dc107fbca3e?cldtidx=3)

or a decent E350 with 40k km (similar to the one I bought, see below):
[https://www.autoscout24.de/angebote/mercedes-
benz-e-350-t-cd...](https://www.autoscout24.de/angebote/mercedes-
benz-e-350-t-cdi-dpf-4matic-blueefficiency-7g-tronic-elegance-diesel-
schwarz-e0e0a2b3-0b02-448e-9462-7a6f6a8202d3?cldtidx=1&cldtsrc=zeroResults#)

etc. The only people buying new cars in Germany are either private companies /
leasing companies, or rich people that don't know what to do with their money.

You can get pretty much any 2 year old car with 20-40k km for 1/2 of the
original price in perfect condition, and 1/4 of the original price with 100k
km and being 3 year old model which is more or less what many leasing car get
in the 2-3 years its leased.

I was looking for a car in the ~<80k EUR segment early this year and ended up
paying 26k for an E350 from 2016 with 60k km and 3 years warranty, and buying
a super sport bike also used for 9k as well instead, and saved over 50k EUR in
the process that I ended up putting in ETFs.

Buying new cars makes zero economic sense. Even if you try to buy from the
German manufacturers here, their websites offer you used cars ("refubrished")
with 5 years warranty for a fraction of the price.

If you are looking for a car in the 40k EUR segment, for buying new to be
worth it would mean that 20k EUR are "nothing" for you, which is hard to
believe because if that were the case you'd be actually looking at cars in at
least the 80-120k range. Even for somebody making 120k EUR/year, 20k EUR is
still not pocket change, its two months salary full-time.

~~~
llampx
The only issue I have with this is that you can't really buy used EVs yet. I'm
interested in buying an EV but it's like smartphones in 2008 - the rate of
improvement is high so it makes sense to buy new.

~~~
fluffything
You can buy used EVs, but for example, used teslas are in the 40k EUR range,
which is quite expensive.

I'm not sure why they are so expensive, but I can imagine that if you have to
retrofit the battery system for 20-30k EUR before reselling them, then that's
going to drive their price up quite a bit.

------
dillz
Blatant and obvious lobbying by the extremely powerful German car industry.
The subsidy includes premium brand plug-in hybrids such as BMW 330e and
Mercedes C class - i.e. typical company cars that will very rarely use the
electric engine. As gibolt mentioned, it also helps VW selling their new
models.

Why not subsidize public transport instead? Why has the German government been
unable to make (useful) climate protection laws in the past years, but these
odd subsidies are no problem?

~~~
thinkcontext
> typical company cars that will very rarely use the electric engine

This is backwards, plugin hybrids rarely use their gas engines. BMW 330e 2020
has a 20 mile electric only range (about the same as Prius Prime). Average
German car trip distance is 11 miles [0] Even if the trip is longer than 20
miles, it will only use the gas after the electric runs out.

[0] Large PDF, average car trip distance on page 50
[https://setis.ec.europa.eu/system/files/Driving_and_parking_...](https://setis.ec.europa.eu/system/files/Driving_and_parking_patterns_of_European_car_drivers-
a_mobility_survey.pdf)

~~~
gibolt
It should be that way, in a perfect world. I believe there was a study/survey
in the UK. Business owners take the extra subsidies to get a cheaper fleet.
They found that only a tiny portion had even unwrapped the charging cables,
treating them just like an ICE vehicle.

Can't seem to find the link :/

~~~
skybrian
While that's unfortunate, I'm wondering how long these fleets keep cars before
they're sold? It seems like this would improve availability of plug-in hybrids
on the used car market.

------
GrayTextIsTruth
Not electric motorcycles? They are electric AND require less energy to move
from point A to B.

~~~
gpm
They probably require a lot more doctor time to move from point A to point B
though.

~~~
devmunchies
And? its an environmental initiative. I'm fine with more human risk. Its the
greener option.

This is Germany too, so there's already a lot more riders than in the US so
drivers are accustomed to see them.

~~~
gpm
And the subsidized medical system is already subsidizing your bike. Call it an
environmental subsidy for your bike if you wish.

(I don't actually know how healthcare works in Germany, not being German, but
I assume it's like other first world countries in that it's subsidized by
taxpayers).

~~~
devmunchies
motorcycle accidents are overwhelmingly caused by car drivers who weren't
paying attention. So why would any medical cost be blamed on the
motorcyclists?

------
Vysero
I would love to be able to buy an electric car here in Montana (US) but how
would I charge it? Either way I couldn't afford it. Even at a conservative
estimate of 20k that's still too much considering I can go out and buy a used
car that gets 20mpg for 5k and keep it for the next 100k miles.

I realize this is a bit off topic but I get so bitter when I heard about other
countries converting to electric. I just wish someone would make and sell a
reliable electric car in the states for around 10-15k and provide me with
enough utility stations to make it practical to use.

~~~
24gttghh
No offense, but what hypothetical car are you buying for $5K that will last
_another_ 100K miles?

You can get used Nissan Leaf's in the price-range you're wanting. In Spokane
tho I guess...

[https://www.cars.com/for-
sale/searchresults.action/?dealerTy...](https://www.cars.com/for-
sale/searchresults.action/?dealerType=all&mdId=35968&mkId=20077&page=1&perPage=20&rd=500&searchSource=GN_REFINEMENT&sort=relevance&stkTypId=28881&zc=59715)

Or used Prius's in Missoula:

[https://www.missoulanissan.com/VehicleSearchResults?search=p...](https://www.missoulanissan.com/VehicleSearchResults?search=preowned&fuelType=Hybrid,Plug-
In%20Hybrid)

edit: I am genuinely curious about the $5K car good for 100K miles.

~~~
nicpottier
All sorts of post 2000 cars from reliable brands. Cars last well into 200k
miles these days. I drive a 2001 Outback with 198k miles on it. Purchased 5
years ago for ~$3700 and besides brake pads and oil haven't spent any money on
it.

This is the biggest barrier to electric IMO. I'm planning on getting a Tesla
but it makes absolutely no economic sense.

------
sneak
Reminder, for context: the German VAT (effectively, sales tax) rate is 19%.

------
BLanen
Terrible. Horribly ineffective for co2 reduction, but politically palatable by
the upper class because they'll be the ones most benefiting from it.

------
aszantu
:( They give u 4k on a 32k car, but they wont give it to a 4k car from china

~~~
wil421
Are the Chinese EV golf carts I mean cars allowed in Germany? I thought their
safety requirements were pretty tight. I can’t imagine some of them making it
on the autobahn.

~~~
lumberjack
Cannot be more of a death trap than a Renault Twizzy which I see quite often
around the city, or any motorcycle for that matter. As long as they don't
market it as a normal car, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed.

~~~
wongarsu
Motocycles require a different driving license in Germany, which is harder to
get and for the powerful motorcycles has stricter age requirements (24 if you
want >95 horsepower)

------
dna_polymerase
> The German government and car industry have agreed to increase joint
> subsidies for the purchase of electric cars on the same day automobile giant
> Volkswagen began production of a new all-electric vehicle.

The way that company fucks Germany over and over is truly remarkable. Paid no
penalties for the whole Dieselgate in Germany, now after all that they let the
taxpayer fund their infrastructure. I bet their solution won't be compatible
with Tesla.

Edit: Okay, charging system seems to be compatible, I got angry over the first
part.

~~~
benjaminsuch
What do you mean by "fucks over"? People want to reduce CO2, they want a
greener Germany, a greener world and more importantly reach the climate
agreement. Subsidizing electric cars is one step towards it.

~~~
freeflight
No disagreement there, but this should have happened over a decade ago.

Instead, we got DieselGate, not just one, but at this point, several of them
[0] and the responsible parties, even government agencies who knew but tried
to hide it, just shrug their shoulders and nothing changes.

Now they can celebrate themselves for putting EV on their agenda when
everybody else is already miles ahead. Which is a common theme with German
politics and any kind of tech innovation [1]

[0] [https://www.rbb24.de/politik/beitrag/2019/10/abgase-
dieselsk...](https://www.rbb24.de/politik/beitrag/2019/10/abgase-
dieselskandal-nox-messung-kraftfahrtbundesamt-autos-schmutzig.html)

[1] [https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/merkel-
neuland-...](https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/merkel-neuland-gaff-
elicits-ridicule-and-goes-viral-on-twitter-a-906859.html)

~~~
pgeorgi
> German politics and any kind of tech innovation

I came to believe that German politics still associates "high tech" with the
cog wheel: more cog wheels, more tech.

Since that doesn't apply to IT, it completely falls by the wayside. And since
EVs have less of them than an ICE car, they're also lower tech than regular
cars.

So far that's the only way I could make sense of it all.

~~~
freeflight
That would also explain the tendency to still bet on "rare metals" aka copper
as a transmission medium for the Internet.

~~~
paganel
Related to that, it surprised me how spotty the Internet was when I drove from
Salzburg all the way to Strasbourg via Karlsruhe a few weeks ago (my gf who
was riding shotgun used a more explicit word to describe it). Supposedely
those are the best developed regions of Germany (we passed close to Munich and
Stuttgart, i.e. the hometowns of BMW and Merecedes). The highway itself (the
A8) is in need of further improvements especially the part between Salzburg
and Munich.

------
sparkling
I doubt this is going to do anything.

About 50% of the population in Germany are renters, not owners. And for the
other 50% owners, many just own a unit in a multi family building, not the
whole property.

For manyyyyy of these people there simply is no option to conveniently fast
charge their electric vehicle at home. No renter will want to invest in a
pricey wallbox at a property that they don't own - even if the landlord would
allow such a wallbox to be installed (most don't want any modifications to
their building). And for the apartment/unit owners, a German court has decided
that all the other unit owners must agree to such a wallbox being installed,
so that's another obstacle.

~~~
mooktakim
Solution to these problems will come. Its a chicken & egg problem. I live in a
flat in London and thinking of similar issues with electric cars. Maybe 20min
supercharging every couple of weeks is enough for my weekend driving. I'm
hoping soon every lamp post will have a charging plug.

~~~
lm28469
> I'm hoping soon every lamp post will have a charging plug.

I don't see any major city doing that anytime soon. The grid is not ready,
power plants are not ready, it would cost billions to rewire everything,
especially in old European towns. And even more for germany since they're
shutting down coal and nuclear right now. It's not a big issue though, we
should focus on getting rid of personal cars and that's something Berlin is
getting slightly better at by the day.

~~~
mooktakim
Firstly, when they add these types of charging stations, they will make the
grid ready.

Secondly, grid has a lot of capacity. Its like motorways, most of the time its
under utilised. Only during peak time that it is full capacity. Think of the
grid in a similar way. Its mostly under utilised except for peak time. All we
need to do is make use of it outside peak time (with batteries) and suddenly
we have double or triple the capacity.

~~~
lm28469
What about all the people getting from/to work roughly at the same time and
plugging their cars. See
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup)
for example, and that's just tea pots

> All we need to do is make use of it outside peak time

Seems like a huge thing to overcome to me.

~~~
mooktakim
Just because they plug in at the same time doesn't mean they all need to draw
power. In fact a lot of chargers now are set to charge late at night to take
advantage of the lower off-peak prices.

