
TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free - danso
https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-fight-to-stop-americans-from-filing-their-taxes-for-free
======
mars4rp
I am the developer in charge of CalFile, the free filing software that
everyone asks for here for state of California.

[https://www.ftb.ca.gov/file/ways-to-
file/online/calfile/inde...](https://www.ftb.ca.gov/file/ways-to-
file/online/calfile/index.asp)

I am pushing so hard to make it better and more useful to more people, like
being able to add capital gain that is not currently supported.

these are the push backs that I am getting:

1\. Last time they tried to do what all of you ask, a ready return. TurboTax
and others hired bunch of lobbyist and put so much pressure on people here and
killed the project. People are still afraid and don't want to do too much to
grab the attention of their lobbyist!

2\. Use of CalFile goes down every year and if trend continues, it would be
killed in the near future.

when you have your Federal return it is much easier to pay a little more and
file your state tax with it too. No body even knows CalFile exist because we
don't have a marketing budget to promote it.

3\. Even people here buy the argument that free software exist and people
could file their taxes for free.

~~~
komali2
Can you expand on why people are "afraid" of lobbyists? The way you write that
makes it sound like the elected officials the lobbyists are trying to
convince, are afraid of those same lobbyists. What I assume you meant is that
ground troops like you are afraid lobbyists will notice your work and pay more
attention to your given team of elected politicians.

Can you help me understand?

~~~
jkeuhlen
My intuition is that the elected officials are wary of choosing positions
blatantly opposite of the interests the lobbyists are pushing for since the
lobbyists could easily support a different candidate and put a lot of money
into supporting them. So if you don't behave in the way the powerful lobbyists
want, they'll get you kicked out of office.

~~~
mszkoda
It is exactly this.

You look at donations to people from corporations or through lobbyists and
they don't look that large, $15-20k and they are getting big bills passed.

That $15-20k isn't buying the politician or their vote. The threat to give
millions of dollars to the opposing politician that will support them is.

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
There are limits on how much you can donate to a candidate's campaign;
however, you can contribute unlimited funds to a PAC, but the PAC's
advertisement efforts must be separate from the candidates; they can't be
coordinated.

~~~
cortesoft
Which is perfect for a company like TurboTax who wants to lobby for an
issue... they don't care about the candidate, they don't have to coordinate
with them at all... they just tell the representative, "if you don't vote my
way, we will fund a PAC that will attack you". No candidate coordination, no
problem.

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
Conversely, people opposed to TurboTax could get their own lobbyist and do the
same thing.

~~~
cortesoft
As I said in another comment, no one cares about free taxes as much as
TurboTax cares about not having free taxes. It is a minor annoyance to every
citizen, but it is life or death for TurboTax.

The people who are hurt by not having free taxes certainly can't afford
lobbyists, and even if they could... they would have to spend so much more
than they pay in tax preparation fees for their whole life to compete with
TurboTax money. Who would do that?

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
Collectively, people spend billions annually on TurboTax. They could, instead,
all chip in $25 for their own lobbyist, if they cared enough to not spend $100
on TurboTax.

If they can afford TurboTax, they can afford the lobbyist.

~~~
cortesoft
Couple of problems with that... one, not everyone would chip in. Why would
they? If there is a fund paying lobbyists, my $25 is not going to make a huge
difference.... they aren't going to win or lose based on my contribution, so
why contribute? Your money wont change the outcome, and you will get the
benefit even if you don't participate... standard Free Rider problem.

You might say that you should donate out to the fund out of moral principle of
a just cause, but there are a million just causes, a million small rent
seeking industries that do this sort of thing. Which of them do I donate to
fight against? Why income tax and not one of the others?

TurboTax is going to be willing to spend a LOT of money to fight this... you
are going to have to get a LOT of people to choose your moral cause, and
donate to the PAC.... and then find even more when TurboTax spends even more
on lobbying to counteract your PAC. Who is going to give up first?

------
gjvnq
Just for comparison: in Brazil the _Receita Federal_ (IRS equivalent) provides
a free multi-platform* Java desktop app for filing your taxes.

The UI isn't great* and if you do complex stock trading it can be a pain to
add the necessary information, but for the vast majority of people it works
just fine.

It also shows if it is better to use the standard deduction or the itemized
deductions for your particular case and also calculates your effective tax
rate.

In fact, the Java App has for years been the only way to file personal income
federal* tax. The paper forms were abolished because (almost) no one used them
and they had a large rate of mistakes.

* The Java desktop app runs on Linux, macOS and Windows. (And possibly others) * There is a separate mobile app but I haven't actually used it. * In macOS there was bug in last year's version: it used ctrl instead of command for things like copy and paste. * There is no state income tax in Brazil.

~~~
lqet
Fun fact: the official tax filing application in Germany which has been around
for a few decades is called "ELSTER" (apronym for _El_ ektronische _St_ euer
_er_ klärung, "Electronic Tax Return") which literally translates to "MAGPIE",
as in "thieving magpie" ("Diebische Elster"). This is a form of self-irony
which is quite unusual for the German tax offices.

OS portability has greatly improved with their online app [0], which is
actually very good and easy to use. Before, the only stable way to run their
Desktop application on Linux was through wine.

[0] [https://www.elster.de/eportal/login](https://www.elster.de/eportal/login)

~~~
robert_foss
Having moved from Sweden to Germany I appreciate Elster existing (and not
being solely paper based unlike the other many many German beaurocratic
exercises one has to Wade through).

However it misses the most important part. In Sweden your tax declaration
comes pre-populated with data they already have, like
salary/pension/savings/stock sales/etc., and you can either just accept it as
it is or make changes to the already existing data.

It's so easy that you in fact just can send an SMS (that is verified to be
from you) to the taxation agency saying that their suggestion is right.

~~~
levosmetalo
In Germany, it's actually similar. You can opt in to include the data
submitted for you by various sources and include them in your tax declaration.
The only drawback is you need to select each one (salary, basic info, church
tax info) to import it into your declaration, and that you need to wait until
end of February since that's the deadline for third parties to submit your
data.

Also, some things, like capital gains, you don't even need to declare if you
used only German brokers, since they are legally required to submit it for
you.

~~~
fsw
It's called "Vorausgefüllte Steuererklärung" (see
[https://www.elster.de/eportal/infoseite/belegabruf_%28privat...](https://www.elster.de/eportal/infoseite/belegabruf_%28privatpersonen%29)).

------
fedups
I like propublica's reporting on this but geez, this needs an award for one of
the top HN obsessions. Within the past 7 months:

TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free; 211
points -- 54 minutes ago

TurboTax to charge more lower-income customers; 144 points -- 3 months ago

Congress Scraps Provision to Restrict IRS from Competing with TurboTax; 82
points -- 4 months ago

Listen to TurboTax Lie to Get Out of Refunding Overcharged Customers; 171
points -- 5 months ago

TurboTax Uses a “Military Discount” to Trick Troops into Paying to File Taxes;
170 points -- 5 months ago

TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat; 355 points -- 6 months
ago

TurboTax Hides Its Free File Page from Search Engines; 881 points -- 6 months
ago

TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes; 608
points -- 6 months ago

How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013); 462 points --
7 months ago

edit: if you _still_ haven't gotten enough TurboTax reporting, there's a great
Reply All episode that covers propublica's reporting as well
[https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-
all/6nhgol](https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/6nhgol)

~~~
grecy
Americans are starting to wake up to the fact they live in what is by far the
richest country, but that the systems in place just make the rich richer,
while nothing is done to improve the lives of the middle and lower classes.

In this particular case, the rich are actively using the system to stop an
improvement to the quality of life of regular people.

What's the point in living in the richest country in the world when your
quality of life is lower than many countries that don't have nearly so much
money?

~~~
Akinato
I would argue that there are few, if any, countries in the world that this
description would not apply to.

However, I agree with the point that you're making wholeheartedly. There's a
very serious amount of wealth disparity around the world, and the rich have
gotten so rich that they can't even feasibly spend all of their money if they
had to.

~~~
grecy
You need to spend more time in better countries.

The lives of middle and lower class people in Australia, Canada, Scandinavia,
etc. are much, much, much better than Americans, and improving all the time.

~~~
joenot443
Do you think so? I live in Toronto and wealth inequality is still constantly
at the forefront of political discourse. Obviously Toronto isn't indicative of
the rest of Canada, but I don't feel as if poor Canadians are especially
better off than poor Americans.

~~~
grecy
They are much, much better off. Just having healthcare makes a huge difference
alone.

------
r0m4n0
A few weeks ago I started an LLC in New York. I followed all the simple
instructions online and the process was actually very straightforward and
easy. I had an official digital copy of proof my LLC existed within an hour. I
went to sleep with and thought that there is hope for our government.

Within a few days I received a letter from a private company informing me that
unless I pay them $1000 to publish the name of my LLC in two public newspapers
for six weeks, one daily newspaper and one weekly newspaper, in 120 days my
LLC would need to cease doing business in NY. I pull out my phone and did a
quick online search. Lo and behold, there is a law that says the same.

In this golden age, the government has chosen to require me to pay a private
archaic company to print in ink thousands of times on paper the silly name of
an LLC I just came up with, then proceed to distribute it by truck to a bunch
of old people that then proceed to throw it in the garbage.

No fancy tax algorithms would be required for NY to simply drop this
nonsensical requirement. Maybe this process exists because there are groups of
people making a small fortune from it?

~~~
moftz
In VA, if you want an alcohol license for your restaurant, you are required to
print an ad in a local newspaper stating that you intend to get a license. I'm
guessing it's so some prohibitionist can call up the ABC and complain? It's
completely ridiculous. I wondering what will happen when print newspaper
ceases to exist.

~~~
pfranz
I've noticed a lot of "public notice" laws. Either a physical sign on the
property or something published in the newspaper. I'm not quite sure what the
digital equivalent would be--a government run "announce" page that gets
indexed and archived? Not really much different from press releases
governments and businesses already do required by other laws.

I do see the value in publicly announcing things, but I do see newspapers as
archaic.

~~~
therealx
Most modern states just post a sign over the door prior to opening that X
company seeks Y license and this location.

~~~
pfranz
Yeah, that works for changes at a physical location. What about founding of an
LLC or other less tangible changes? Even with a physical sign it would be nice
to have a searchable long term record. That seems to be what newspapers
fulfilled; public broadcast and a reasonable long-term archive.

~~~
pas
Around here the Company Court (which decides that a company formation was
lawful and registers the company) has a journal/gazette, and that's the
official record. Nowadays it's of course fully on-line. And lawyers (who
submit the paperwork of the new company) do it exclusively on-line (they
basically upload a signed ZIP of the scanned pages and an XML)!

The clerks at this court look at the scanned pages and confirm that yes they
do say what the XML says, and then this gets published.

People can search for company histories, look at their bylaws, etc.

Similarly there's a different gov service for publishing corporate yearly
financial reports.

Why isn't something like that for US states?

------
HeWhoLurksLate
Maybe I'm totally wrong here, but I don't see much of a difference between
extorsionist tax filing software and scam callers warning me about the IRS
suing me.

Can the government _please_ make something that's easy to use? Filing taxes
isn't something that requires a separate company to help with, and I see no
reason why these products have a _right_ to exist (and especially not be
canonized), especially with how exploitive they are or can be.

~~~
mywittyname
> I see no reason why these products have a right to exist (and especially not
> be canonized), especially with how exploitive they are or can be.

But if we remove the annual pain of dealing with taxes, then Americans will
get complacent and may stop being bothered by having to pay taxes.

\- The serious ideology of a major American political party vis-a-vis taxes.

~~~
SkyBelow
I suggest we stop taking taxes out of paychecks and have people pay their full
taxes once a year. It would help them see the total amount of taxes they pay.
It would have a positive effect on government policy.

~~~
moftz
You can set your withholding to nothing and end up with a fat bill every year.
Financially, this makes sense. You could be making interest on the money you
owe in taxes. However, not everyone is really able to be that disciplined or
just financially need every dollar coming in. I think having both options,
withholding and no withholding, is the best way.

~~~
tedsanders
FYI, if you do this you will incur penalties. The United States requires
payment quarterly. You cannot pay it all at the end of the year unless you
want to pay penalties.

------
tombert
I really don't understand why I have to file my taxes to begin with.

I have a W2 job, and my employer presumably has sent my paystubs and tax
information to the government already. I then have to copy down the
information from my W2 into some kind of tax filing software, and then they
have to check to make sure that what I typed matches what they have,
presumably paying someone to do that if I make any kind of serious mistake.
Why do _I_ have to do anything?

I'd understand if I have a lot of complex deductions or if I were running my
own business, but as it stands I do the basic standard deduction (or whatever
the default options on TurboTax are).

I'm genuinely asking this...is there some utility that I'm missing here to me
doing the taxes myself?

~~~
0xffff2
It's not terribly difficult to construct circumstances in which the government
doesn't know how much you owe them. It's simpler to have a single policy for
everyone. Therefore, everyone has to do their own taxes. I really don't think
it's more complicated than that.

~~~
pm215
Simpler for who? It's not simpler for the vast bulk of people whose only
significant income is from their employer. It's not simpler for the tax
authorities either, who now have to process a lot more tax returns rather than
just doing something more straightforward for the common-case.

~~~
0xffff2
Of course it's simpler for the IRS. Simpler does not imply less work.

------
candyman
I guess this is why some voters are eager for someone like Elizabeth Warren to
get in office and stop some of this anti-competitive behavior. It's odd to me
because TurboTax is good software (at least when I used it) and it saves time.
So to me it's worth the money. But to force someone who as a job and no real
deductions to not simply file a 1040 EZ online is just a rent seeker making
sure they get paid.

~~~
Accujack
>Elizabeth Warren to get in office and stop some of this anti-competitive
behavior.

Warren is a run of the mill middle of the pack Democrat. She only looks good
because at present the GOP looks so bad.

The government needs to be reformed, electing one party or another President
isn't going to change much, unless you set the bar really low (Trump)

~~~
untog
Based on recent history Warren certainly isn't a run of the mill middle of the
pack Democrat. Her positions on banking, big business, healthcare and big tech
companies is a leftward lean even when compared to Obama's tenure.

> The government needs to be reformed, electing one party or another President
> isn't going to change much

And pontificating about how "the system is broken" doesn't change anything.
There are no actual concrete steps to reforming government that doesn't
involve elections and gradual process, or revolution and sudden progress. If
you think the latter is in any way likely then you're deluded.

~~~
hannasanarion
Obama held almost all those positions during the primary in '08\. Why do you
trust Warren to follow through when Obama didn't?

~~~
untog
He didn't, though. He advocated improving healthcare, but not to the extent
that Warren does. And he castigated the banking industry but never proposed
anything at the level Warren is proposing.

Besides, this isn't even the question. The OP said that Warren is a middle of
the road Democrat. Compared to the positions held by the average Democrat
Senator/Congressperson she isn't at all. Whether she'd follow through on those
promises when elected is a valid question (though much like Obama, it wouldn't
be under her sole control), but that doesn't mean she isn't left-leaning.

~~~
hannasanarion
To what extent does Warren advocate improving healthcare? She went from
"medicarefor all" to "actually medicare is just a framework" in just a month.
On her platform page she seems to have abandoned single-payer entirely.

How can you trust a candidate who changes platform from progressive to
milquetoast centrist so quickly? How can you trust a candidate who said
several months ago that she wants to eliminate billionaires, and yet who
continues to get major contributions from at least twenty billionaires?

I find it very hard to believe that Warren is genuinely left-leaning. Based on
her behavior, it seems to me much more like she is a centrist candidate
wrapping centrist ideas in left rhetoric.

------
MarketingJason
Their efforts to block return-free filing is the important issue here. Filing
taxes, even on paper, would be orders of magnitude easier if the government
had to pre-fill it before sending - removing the complexity that makes tax
filing applications necessary for most.

------
u801e
Free fillable forms[1] has been around for a number of years and van be used
by anyone regardless of income level.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_File#Free_File_Fillable...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_File#Free_File_Fillable_Forms)

~~~
dangus
They are still an unnecessarily painful solution.

I did do these last year to finally kick TurboTax to the curb. However,
they’re shamefully complex especially considering how they’re already a piece
of software. They barely do basic arithmetic.

The restrictions are entirely artificial, and the system is gamed so that you
either spend a lot of time learning tax form rules and lingo or you just pay
TurboTax to do it for you.

The IRS could very easily send a pre-filled tax form for most Americans to
verify and sign like other countries do. All the relevant information is
already reported to the IRS. Only business owners and people with exotic tax
situations would ever have to fill anything out - especially considering our
now-higher standard deduction that most people don’t hit.

 _Despite my complaints I still highly recommend everyone use free fillable
forms._ You’ll actually understand what is happening with your taxes by the
end of it. And without that understanding you have no idea if TurboTax is
doing it right.

~~~
SamuelAdams
What about the free forms is painful? I have only ever filed via these forms -
I've never used TurboTax, and my AGI exceeds the limits on the federal free
file software.

To me, it's pretty simple: you read the instruction book and go through it
line by line. If you have odd forms to complete, like paperwork for an HSA, a
quick google search will set you in the right direction.

People with more complicated tax returns will always need a professional's
expertise. But for 90% of people who have one income source for one household,
the paper forms are very intuitive.

I think people think they are "painful" because they need to read and
comprehend more.

~~~
maxerickson
That's not what intuitive means.

('intuitive' is over used as a goal, but a form where you look up the
instructions line by line in a separate book and where you occasionally have
to search out how to fill out a subform _is not intuitive at all_.)

------
xivzgrev
Credit karma tax is (actually) free. I’ve used for past 3 years.

Why is it free? Because credit karma uses your financial data (including tax
returns) to make better credit card / loan recommendations to you. So it
ultimately benefits me as well, that’s why I share my return with them.

BUT you don’t have to share your tax return with CK to file. There’s a box you
can uncheck when starting each year.

~~~
dentemple
I gave Credit Karma a shot last year, and it worked out pretty great.

It's definitely a good alternative to Turbo Tax

------
mattferderer
Sadly you can't even file a simple quarterly estimate tax return online
without paying a fee. If you want to do it for free, you have to print it out
& mail it. Not sure how that benefits citizens or the IRS.

Intuit's main argument has always been that if the government provided such a
service many people would overpay their taxes.

Honestly it's much cheaper, easier & better to just find a good accountant to
do your taxes instead of Turbo Tax.

The government could do a lot to make filing taxes & starting businesses
easier. All the politicians talking about being pro-small business could
really start at these 2 steps. Otherwise, imho, their talk is nothing but
empty promises. Creating hurdles like this is just a way of gate-keeping lower
incomes out of small businesses.

~~~
gwd
> Intuit's main argument has always been that if the government provided such
> a service many people would overpay their taxes.

If that's true, then most people would use Intuit anyway, once they realized
how much they'd save.

------
isostatic
It's a webpage in the UK, takes about 10 minutes if you have all the data you
need (how much interest etc you earned, how many charitable deductions) --
that's assuming you're self assessed. Most people don't need to fill in
anything.

------
djsumdog
When I lived in New Zealand, you didn't have to file at all. You could create
an account on a website with your tax ID and see all the reports employers
sent in. You could requests corrections if things were wrong and have any
return transferred to a normal bank account.

In Australia, they had a desktop application you could download, provided by
the government. It wasn't pretty, but it was straight forward and took less
than an hour to go through the whole thing.

I once met an Aussie at a security meetup who worked at immigration and I told
him how surprised I was that I got my visa in like two days. He was like, "oh
I worked on that piece. Yea that use to take two weeks; but we were able to
fix a lot of that process." I wouldn't be surprised if Australia taxes were
all web based and even faster today.

~~~
GordonS
Surely that's only for employees though, not for companies? This is how it
works in several countries, including the UK - your employer tells the tax
service about your salary and pension payments, and you only need to fill a
tax return if you have "something else" to tell them about, such as another
source of income.

------
dghughes
In Canada the CRA has a list of free tax software listed on its website.

For the last two years I literally filed my tax return with two mouse clicks.
Click 1 Autofill Click 2 Efile.

At some point I expect the government to just send a notice "your taxes have
been filed. If you have concerns contact us".

I could have been doing it for ten years but I was stuck in the past of only
using electronic tax software. And I still made a paper copy for myself.

------
vgetr
Ultimately the problem is that the tax code is altogether too complex. I filed
by hand up until a couple of years ago when I had to start accounting for
things like capital gains and dividends from stock sales, and at that point it
became too difficult and I started paying for TurboTax. At the end of the day
they solve a problem that is entirely manufactured by government.

The main area where the system seems to be gamed from a software standpoint is
that the federal government provides software if your income is below a
certain threshold. More than that and you’re on your own. _That_ has lobbying
written all over it.

~~~
alexmingoia
A flat income tax as the sole tax would eliminate tax filing complexity. It
would also eliminate the inequality in the tax code (sales tax is a larger
income tax on lower incomes, tax credits disproportionally benefit people in
lower cost of living areas, etc.). A flat income tax is equal in that everyone
pays the same rate, and fair in that the more money a person earns the more
they pay.

------
ttn
Can someone from US explain how come there is still no open source alternative
to TurboTax?

~~~
throwaway_law
There are...you can download any tax form for free and fill it in by hand or
in a PDF program.

You will see articles regularly attacking TurboTax because SV has been wildly
unsuccessful in producing a startup that can compete with TurboTax, so instead
a lot of effort is spent attacking them in the media.

Google, Microsoft, Facebook all spend significantly more on lobbying to ensure
market hegemony. Don't be surprised at the pattern, attack TurboTax in the
media, then up pops a new startup that will disrupt the industry. Rinse and
repeat.

~~~
dangus
I disagree with this simply because the idea that competition exists or could
exist is not an excuse for the system to function the way it does.

There _are_ new players in the space, like CreditKarma. Many competitors offer
more features for free than Intuit as well. But that doesn’t mean we should
have to rely on _private companies_ (who are data hoarding) to file our taxes.
That doesn’t mean that free fillable forms need to be unnecessarily more
difficult to use than commercial solutions.

In reality, the IRS already has all the relevant forms reported to them. For
most people the IRS could send a tax form already filed out to read, verify,
and return. For business owners and other more complex situations, these are
still the same people who are already hiring a tax accountant and are probably
skipping TurboTax as it is.

In other words, commercial tax preparation software for most users is filling
an artificial need that only exists because the government has been lobbied
not to provide the (basic) service itself.

~~~
throwaway_law
> That doesn’t mean that free fillable forms need to be unnecessarily more
> difficult to use than commercial solutions.

They aren't. The IRS form is the exact for completed by TurboTax or any other
accountant/service provider. The IRS only accepts their own forms.

>For most people the IRS could send a tax form already filed out to read,
verify, and return.

Thats what is really being asked...the Government to do tax returns for you
for free. Even if TurboTax and accountants weren't lobbying the Government not
to do taxpayers tax returns for them for free, its a major jump to say the
government/IRS would unilaterally begin doing this for taxpayers as a free
service.

~~~
dangus
Telling us that the end result of the form is the same is meaningless. You
don’t fill out the form manually on TurboTax. It automatically imports W2
information, it asks layperson’s questions, and generates the final form.

If you do this yourself, it’s far more time consuming.

I don’t understand why you think it’s a major jump for the IRS to provide this
service. Other countries already do this. Other federal agencies also provide
complex web services like My Social Security and Healthcare.gov.

The IRS already has your W2 and 1099 data. The IRS already knows when you make
a mistake, automatically, often live as you e-file. I have had e-files
rejected instantly due to mistakes. They clearly already know how much I’m
supposed to owe them.

------
js2
I recently learned about this volunteer maintained spreadsheet for helping
with your 1040.

[https://sites.google.com/site/excel1040/](https://sites.google.com/site/excel1040/)

~~~
snackematician
I've been using this for last couple years and it's a great piece of
"software", I prefer it over TurboTax.

The dedication of the maintainer to this project is truly impressive.

I'm on linux but it works fine in the browser version of Excel.

------
twoodfin
This seems to make the hn front page every 60 days or so. Is there anything
new here?

~~~
elygre
No, it's just still amusing to the rest of the world. We're like "This is
2019, not 1920".

------
pzs
Yet another data point: Hungary.

For most people the National Tax Bureau (NAV) prepares the filing based on the
data they receive from employers, banks, etc. You can check the content on a
web page, and approve, if you agree.

For those who have income that must be self-reported, there is the free Java
app provided by NAV. I have used the latter for several years and it has been
working reasonably well for me.

------
AcerbicZero
I'm likely in the minority here, but as a product TurboTax hasn't really
bothered me that much. It makes filling my taxes pretty easy, and saves most
of the info year of year so I don't have to re-enter it. Compared to the
thousands of dollars in taxes I've paid, the $100 or so turbo tax gets doesn't
seem too bad.

My issue is with all this is pretty simple - I pay too much in tax, and/or the
quality of government those taxes are buying is subpar at best. I also
strongly suspect leaving the government in charge of comping up with a
solution to filing taxes electronically would continue the trend of
disappointment.

If my choice is between paying a private company a couple bucks to make my
interaction with the government easier, or going back to the old paper way of
doing things until the government gets its shit together.....well I'm going to
stick with the former, unless I'm missing something here?

------
rb808
This is just a convenient excuse for 3 layers of politicians with their own
filing requirements, each one trying to get tax breaks for their favorite
constituents. If we had a simple tax system there would be less power for
politicians and less they can negotiate with. Blaming Turbo Tax is silly.

------
jammygit
“ ProPublica is a nonprofit newsroom that investigates abuses of power. Sign
up for ProPublica’s Big Story newsletter to receive stories like this one in
your inbox as soon as they are published.”

Is propublica good/reliable news source? Always looking for good news sources

------
rfhjt
I like to look at things from Buddhist point if view. Calfile "buys" you the
saved 50 bucks (3 hours of work for most people?) x the number if people use
it, especially if you understand the implications and your intent is clear. Of
course, a practical Buddhist never "spends" the earned opportunities, but
reinvests them to get even more opportunities, until the impact is measured in
trillions of years. But that's philosophy. On the practical side, if I were
you, I'd do two things: (1) open source this on behalf of the gov - it's
important to get the "official" status; (2) advertise this over official
channels: send them a green letter from ca.gov/irs that say there is such a
tool. The software doesn't need to be perfect: the website that manages toll
fees in my state is in stone age, yet it's official and it's better to have
this site than not.

------
vonmoltke
ProPublica seems to be singularly focused on Intuit to the exclusion of all
the other powerful interests who benefit from a complex and opaque tax code.
They may be fighting efforts to make filing easier under the current rules,
but they aren't really doing anything to keep those rules a clusterfuck.

~~~
lidHanteyk
Who else lobbies like Intuit? Who else spends millions of dollars on defeating
measures intended to make paying taxes simpler and easier?

~~~
flyosity
> Who else lobbies like Intuit?

Google spent $21 million in 2018. Facebook spent $12 million. Amazon spent $14
million. Microsoft spent $9 million.

[https://www.engadget.com/2019/01/23/tech-companies-
lobbying-...](https://www.engadget.com/2019/01/23/tech-companies-
lobbying-2018-google-facebook-amazon/)

~~~
Mtinie
Your point being? This discussion refers to an article about tax filing and
Intuit’s efforts to retain tax code complexity and self-beneficial regulatory
conditions.

Yes, companies like the ones you cited spend significant amounts of money to
educate and persuade lawmakers. Academically I’d like to see what a world
without lobbying looks like, but honestly, I’m not confident it would be
significantly better for citizens (and may be significantly worse in some
ways).

But that’s a tangential topic for a different discussion.

------
dsalzman
Paying taxes is so frustrating.

Gov : “Please pay us the taxes I owe”

Tax Payer : “Ok. How much do I owe?”

Gov : “We can’t tell you that. Hire an accountant if you need help”

Tax Payer : “fu*k fine. (Files hinder and makes one mistake)

Gov : “You owe us money!! You didn’t pay enough. You owe us interest on what’s
due as well!”

Tax Payer : “I thought you didn’t know how much I owe! Just tell me!!!!”

Fin

------
KoftaBob
Until garbage like this stops, you don't get to call our economic system a
free market. This is plutocracy, plain and simple. It's not a free market when
large incumbents can bribe the government into forcing their product to be
needed.

------
aunty_helen
In New Zealand, the involvement that I had with my tax department this year
since they have switched to an automated system was checking my bank balance
one day to find that I had received a tax refund.

------
MR4D
Ok, I have a really dumb question...

Why does everyone say you can't file taxes for free? The IRS has a site for it
here: [https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-
taxes-f...](https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-for-
free)

I get that Intuit is fighting tooth and nail to keep their business, but
"hiding" a page from google - seriously, is that to be considered evil now?

Seriously, I'm missing something in this conversation.

~~~
xivzgrev
You CAN, if...

1) you are under a certain income threshold

2) you go seek out that particular page (vs searching free file in google and
clicking on intuit)

Or you go directly to intuit and qualify as a “free filer” which you only
qualify for if you have a dead simple return - w2 and no deductions or extra
forms.

The problem isn’t that you can’t file free. The problem is that intuit is
doing what it can to bury it while promoting its conveniently named “free”
edition that bumps you up into a paid edition faster than you can say “what?”.

~~~
vonmoltke
Free fillable forms are available to everyone, and referenced repeatedly in
the Form 1040 instructions.

~~~
thrwn_frthr_awy
This is correct. The problem is the lobbying has stopped making forms easier
or non-existent. They are complex because of private corporate influence, not
the constituents of the I.R.S..

~~~
vonmoltke
What does that have to do with the ability to e-file for free? I didn't say it
was a _good_ option, just that it existed. There's plenty to complain about
without making things up ("You CAN, if... [...] 1) you are under a certain
income threshold").

> The problem is the lobbying has stopped making forms easier or non-existent.
> They are complex because of private corporate influence, not the
> constituents of the I.R.S..

Where did I contradict this?

~~~
thrwn_frthr_awy
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply anything you wrote was incorrect. I was agreeing
with you and this my opinion on the top level comment. Sorry for the
confusion.

------
toddh
Isn’t tax filing complicated because of the tax system? If your income is low
enough it is free. Below $66000. You just have to say no to add ons. State
filing can be free if you shop around.

Free File: Do Your Federal Taxes for Free [https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-
file-do-your-federal-taxes-f...](https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-
federal-taxes-for-free)

------
0000011111
I am all for free filing software for the people!

What TurboTax offers that a free version may not is the ability for a CPA to
sign off on one's taxes. That is worth paying for in my opinion. B/C they
carry the liability if I were to be audited.

I think the IRS needs to simplify the filing process so that a CPA is not
needed.

Sadly, this issue is more complex than intuits lobbying power.

------
kyrra
Not a direct counter-point to this piece, but:

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/irs-commissioned-report-
respond...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/irs-commissioned-report-responds-to-
criticism-over-free-file-program-11570576703?mod=rsswn)

It's a high-level view of the 2 sides arguing about the Free File program.

------
hkai
I'm not in the US, but I'm not seeing the reason for all the anger.

Yes, they are hiding the free option, similarly to how Google for example was
hiding the free option for the Gsuite - you had to dig for it in the menu.

Plus there are multiple alternatives.

What's wrong with a company using little tricks and dark patterns to nudge
more people into paying for their service?

------
sgustard
Google "free tax filing" and these organizations all promise free tax filing
on the first page: IRS, eFile, FreeTaxUSA, TurboTax, H&R Block, TaxAct, and
others. Intuit's not the top organic or paid slot. Are all of these equally
misleading or is Intuit just called out for being the market leader?

------
nan0
Who is going to build this "free" tax filing system? I hope not the IRS [0]

0: [https://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/computing/it/irs-
predic...](https://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/computing/it/irs-predicted-
tax-filing-failure)

~~~
n-exploit
"On 17 April 2018, the final day for U.S. citizens to file 2017 tax returns,
the U.S. Internal Revenue Service (IRS) suffered a major system failure
related to the hardware supporting its 58-year old, 20-million-line Cobol-
based Individual Master File system [PDF], which is still being used today to
process the vast majority of individual tax returns. As a result of the
failure, the IRS extended by a day the filing due date."

Maybe that's because a decades-old system hit capacity, and has nothing to do
with the system design?

~~~
nan0
"While it’s true that the IRS has experienced budget reductions over the past
several years, those cuts hardly explain a failure of an 18-month-old piece of
computer hardware. More important, those claims conveniently ignore that the
IRS has spent untold billions since the late 1960s on numerous attempts to
modernize its IT systems, all centered on trying to replace the ancient IMF
system, with minimum success."

I assume you didn't read the whole source

------
rdiddly
Is there not an option that has all of the advantages of electronic filing,
EXCEPT actually submitting the return? i.e. you print everything out at the
end and mail it? Because I mean, that would make it immune to all lobbying but
still be a huge improvement over filling it out by hand.

------
thomasfl
In norway, filing taxes is optional. Citisens are highly encouraged too log in
to a website called AltInn (wich means literally everything in) and check the
data, and do adjustments. Income, bank loans and investments are usually
registered correctly.

------
Triiglav
Just use credit karma.

------
candyman
I guess this is why some wish to vote for Elizabeth Warren. This kind of crap
goes on all the time. FWIW I think TurboTax is pretty useful and because it
saves time worth paying for in many cases. However someone with very simple
taxes, like working a job with no itemized deductions they should be able to
file an online 1040EZ or = for free and in a few minutes. It's very simple.
This is probably why the whole money-in-politics thing is so powerful as well.

------
MH15
I refuse to use TurboTax for my (albeit simple) tax filings. I used FreeTaxUSA
last year and it was pretty solid.

------
tomohawk
Missing option: repeal the 16th amendment and get rid of the income tax. It's
intrusive and complicated.

------
black6
The income tax, designed to prevent the accumulation of wealth, needs to be
replaced with a wealth tax[0]. This would simplify filing for the 99% of
Americans who are not the 1%.

0:
[http://www.cosmicweenie.com/wealth_tax.pdf](http://www.cosmicweenie.com/wealth_tax.pdf)
(don't let the domain name fool you...)

------
perseusprime11
We are living in a conflicted world full of quid pro quos powered by lobbying
congress.

------
sb057
Is it that time of the week again?

[https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-just-tricked-
you...](https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-just-tricked-you-into-
paying-to-file-your-taxes)

[https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-military-
discoun...](https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-military-discount-
trick-troops-paying-to-file-taxes)

[https://www.propublica.org/article/irs-funded-review-
confirm...](https://www.propublica.org/article/irs-funded-review-confirms-
turbotax-hid-free-filing-from-search-engines-but-says-theres-no-need-for-
major-changes)

[https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-deliberately-
hid...](https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-deliberately-hides-its-
free-file-page-from-search-engines)

[https://www.propublica.org/article/intuit-turbotax-h-r-
block...](https://www.propublica.org/article/intuit-turbotax-h-r-block-gutted-
free-tax-filing-internal-memo)

[https://www.propublica.org/article/congress-is-about-to-
ban-...](https://www.propublica.org/article/congress-is-about-to-ban-the-
government-from-offering-free-online-tax-filing-thank-turbotax)

[https://www.propublica.org/article/listen-to-turbotax-lie-
to...](https://www.propublica.org/article/listen-to-turbotax-lie-to-get-out-
of-refunding-overcharged-customers)

[https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-tax-law-
threatened-...](https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-tax-law-threatened-
turbotax-profits-started-charging-disabled-unemployed-and-students)

[https://www.propublica.org/article/congress-scraps-
provision...](https://www.propublica.org/article/congress-scraps-provision-to-
restrict-irs-from-competing-with-turbotax)

[https://www.propublica.org/article/how-to-get-turbotax-
refun...](https://www.propublica.org/article/how-to-get-turbotax-refund)

[https://www.propublica.org/article/intuit-ceo-in-internal-
vi...](https://www.propublica.org/article/intuit-ceo-in-internal-video-hiding-
free-turbotax-was-in-best-interest-of-taxpayers)

[https://www.propublica.org/article/here-are-your-stories-
of-...](https://www.propublica.org/article/here-are-your-stories-of-being-
tricked-into-paying-by-turbotax-you-often-need-the-money)

[https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-maker-intuit-
h-r...](https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-maker-intuit-h-r-block-
new-york-regulator-launches-investigation)

[https://www.propublica.org/article/elizabeth-warren-and-
othe...](https://www.propublica.org/article/elizabeth-warren-and-other-
senators-call-for-refunds-and-investigations-of-turbotax-and-h-r-block)

[https://www.propublica.org/article/senior-irs-leaders-
launch...](https://www.propublica.org/article/senior-irs-leaders-launch-
review-of-partnership-with-turbotax-and-h-r-block)

[https://www.propublica.org/article/bill-to-limit-irs-
ability...](https://www.propublica.org/article/bill-to-limit-irs-ability-to-
offer-free-tax-filing-service-is-getting-new-scrutiny)

And that's just ones from this year. I'm not saying TurboTax isn't a scummy
company, but this is just getting ridiculous.

------
ycombonator
How about a change.org petition and starting a github project to counter the
lobbying.

------
flyosity
The crux of this article is a PowerPoint slide from 12 years ago? Really?

~~~
hudibras
If you hover your mouse cursor over the underlined words in the article (these
are called 'hyperlinks' or, more informally, 'links') and then hit the left
mouse button, your World Wide Web browser will display other documents which
ProPublica used for their reporting.

------
matiszek23
Hello

------
muterad_murilax
Anyone else read that as TurboGrafx?

