
U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers - godelmachine
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-changes-visa-process-for-high-skilled-workers-11548879868
======
joshe
I've worked with a few H1-B holders in Silicon Valley and they're awesome.

A great improvement would be to allow H1B holders to change jobs easily (maybe
after a year). It's too easy for them to get stuck in not great situations. It
would be great for everyone if they could move to better fitting jobs,
especially for startups who have trouble running H1-B programs.

If you are, like me, a software engineer, you should cheer every immigrant.
They aren't competitors, they are complements and create more jobs. Economics
is complicated and sometimes counterintuitive, but just because "immigrants
lower wages" is "common knowledge" doesn't make it true. [1]

To prime your intuition a bit, consider how woman and minorities more than
doubled the work force from the 1960s to 1990s with no loss in jobs or
lowering of wages.

And if you are in SV consider that more than half of public tech companies
were created by 1st and 2nd generation immigrants. 1st generation founders
include Sergey Brin, Max Levchin, Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, Pierre Omidyar,
Stewart Butterfield, Sebastion Thrun, and Patrick and John Collison. [2]

[1]
[https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/page1-econ/2014...](https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/page1-econ/2014/05/01/the-
economics-of-immigration-a-story-of-substitutes-and-complements)

[2] [https://www.recode.net/2018/5/30/17385226/kleiner-perkins-
ma...](https://www.recode.net/2018/5/30/17385226/kleiner-perkins-mary-meeker-
immigration-tech-founders-jobs-slides-code-conference)

~~~
tossaccount123
>To prime your intuition a bit, consider how woman and minorities more than
doubled the work force from the 1960s to 1990s with no loss in jobs or
lowering of wages.

You do realize there hasn't been a raise in real wages since the 70s when you
account for inflation right? Coincidentally during that same time period the
income gap exploded because the wealthy had plentiful cheap labor and were
able to pocket the productivity gains as pure profit because workers had no
leverage to demand higher wages because there were 0 labor shortages.
American's used to be able to support large families of 4+ kids with only 1
working parent. Now you have households with both working and they can't
afford to have kids.

[http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-
us-...](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-
real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/)

I support high skilled immigration because it benefits the country but let's
be real, if we dropped 10 million software engineers in Silicon Valley from
around the world, guess what? Wages would drop massively because it would be a
buyer's market for tech companies, they could pick and choose the most
talented for pennies

~~~
jayd16
By this logic, any increase in productivity is bad because it reduces labor
scarcity. That's just not how it works.

> if we dropped 10 million software engineers in Silicon Valley from around
> the world, guess what?

Guess what, we'd get a lot more overseas clients as they wrestled with the
labor shortage abroad. (Although, the real problem would be the humanitarian
crisis in housing 10m more in SV overnight, ha)

~~~
pasabagi
>any increase in productivity is bad because it reduces labor scarcity

Isn't it? Increases in productivity, normally called automation, _must_ reduce
labour scarcity _unless_ demand for the product is proportionately increased.
There are plenty of sectors where this is exactly what happens, and some where
it isn't.

~~~
tobltobs
> Increases in productivity, normally called automation

That is a wrong assumption to start with. Inventing the wheel wasn't
automation.

~~~
tomrod
Actually...

Production has three components: capital, labor, and technology. Automation,
as I understand it, both improves technology and lowers the cost of capital.

If I recall right, this strand of economic lit is called Total Factor
Productivity.[0]

I believe the Wheel falls squarely in the technology bracket.

[0]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_factor_productivity](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_factor_productivity)

------
luckydata
Honestly this is a good thing. Right now the H1B is a bullshit immigration
program for cheap engineers from India and China designed to depress wages in
silicon valley. A change is sorely needed, this is not big enough but it's
definitely a step.

~~~
femiagbabiaka
The idea that those on H1B visas are bringing wages down for software
engineers is a popular one. Is it supported by data?

If it isn’t, this is just thinly veiled xenophobia.

Personally, I think the more diverse groups have an opportunity to come to
America legally, the better.

~~~
acdha
Look at it from the other direction: large companies have fought giving H1-B
workers better protections. They wouldn’t be doing that if they weren’t
profiting from workers with less negotiating ability.

That’s also my position: don’t ban them, give them flexibility to switch jobs
like everyone else so companies can’t hold the threat of deportation over them
if they want a better deal.

~~~
austincheney
You replied to a comment arguing against positions made from speculation
without data by supplying more speculation without data.

~~~
acdha
There's some data out there but it's also hard to compare reliably since you
need to account for differences in skill level when comparing salaries.

My point was that the large companies which have the best data, and whole
teams of people doing the math on this issue, have consistently fought to
preserve the old ways of doing it and since they're for-profit corporations it
seems unlikely that they're doing this for any reason other than the econ 101
explanation that they profit from workers who can't negotiate as well.

------
peferron
H-4 holders (spouses of H-1B, for the uninitiated) should be allowed to work.
That they don't is inhuman and de facto hurts women, since the overwhelming
majority of H-1B holders (at least in the Valley) are men. It's forcing women
into a stay-at-home role as if it were the 50s. It's especially hard for H-4s
because they are newcomers to the USA who may not have local friends or
family. My wife went through it for a while and it's incredibly isolating.

~~~
keegancsmith
I was an h1b holder working in Silicon Valley. My wife not being able to work
was the main reason why we left after 2 years. Kind of silly to go through
that whole song and dance of getting a skilled person to move across the world
only to treat the spouse as if the only purpose they have is home keeping.

~~~
digianarchist
Same with the TN visa. Spouses of Australian citizens can work though on the
E3 visa.

------
ones_and_zeros
Fine by me but H1-B should not be allowed to use the Level 1 or Level 2 wage
designation the BLS defines, especially if they are masters students now that
we are prioritizing masters degrees since we've decided they provide more
value.

Setting wages from level 1 and 2 is exactly what happens in a majority of
these visas today and doesn't make sense that we are importing "skilled"
labor, fresh out of mostly mediocre schools, at entry level wages to work on
back office systems at companies that make generous profits quarter after
quarter.

Edit: I just looked it up, in 2018 nearly 72% of H1B applications that used
the OES wage data in their LCA were either Level 1 or Level 2...

Below are the (possibly dated?) definitions for Level 1 and 2[0]:

Level I (entry) wage rates are assigned to job offers for beginning level
employees who have only a basic understanding of the occupation. These
employees perform routine tasks that require limited, if any, exercise of
judgment. The tasks provide experience and familiarization with the employer’s
methods, practices, and programs. The employees may perform higher level work
for training and developmental purposes. These employees work under close
supervision and receive specific instructions on required tasks and results
expected. Their work is closely monitored and reviewed for accuracy.
Statements that the job offer is for a research fellow, a worker in training,
or an internship are indicators that a Level I wage should be considered.

Level II (qualified) wage rates are assigned to job offers for qualified
employees who have attained, either through education or experience, a good
understanding of the occupation. They perform moderately complex tasks that
require limited judgment. An indicator that the job request warrants a wage
determination at Level II would be a requirement for years of education and/or
experience that are generally required as described in the O*NET Job Zones.

[0]
[http://www.flcdatacenter.com/download/NPWHC_Guidance_Revised...](http://www.flcdatacenter.com/download/NPWHC_Guidance_Revised_11_2009.pdf)

------
xfitm3
[https://outline.com/cSY3HL](https://outline.com/cSY3HL)

~~~
benmarten
isn't that page going against wsj's terms?

~~~
gesman
Most people would rather read article than terms.

------
calvinbhai
As an immigrant from India, who worked in the US on H1B, I welcome this
change, because this increases the chances of weeding out the bad apples and
increases the chances for the good ones to get an H1b visa.

This at least encourages genuine direct employers to hire those who have
already contributed to the US economy (by paying out of state tuition which
funds/subsidizes the university education of US resident/citizen students)

With this rule change, it certainly is better than what it was earlier.

How could this be made even better?

Make it such that those who studied in the US are not in the lottery. Meaning,
give H1b to every applicant who has graduated in the US, and lottery with the
remaining visas to those who didn't study in the US. That way, the downward
trend of international student admissions will reduce, and help the
universities and all the students.

~~~
bonestamp2
> give H1b to every applicant who has graduated in the US

Agreed. I studied in the US, wasn't even applying for jobs and had job offers.
But, I didn't have work authorization so I couldn't take them. I went back to
Canada for years before I was able to get back again. I'm not mad, but the
system could definitely be improved for those who are qualified. If we're
going to compete with China, Russia, India, etc we have to do everything to
attract and keep the best minds here.

~~~
calvinbhai
True. I'm not mad with US immigration issues either.

It's more like I feel sad for the country, which has such potential, and they
are missing out on having high skilled immigrants live and pay taxes in the
US.

Since I'm fed up with US permanent residency process (as an India born person,
there's no point in applying), I'm working remote from outside US, as a
contractor with a US company and paying Canada taxes (I almost bought a house
in the US, before I decided to get a Canada PR. US's loss, Canada's gain).

------
throwawayh1btal
As an H1B holder in tech without a masters degree, I'm conflicted. On one hand
this _may_ help industries other than tech to get more foreign applicants. But
it does nothing to gauge talent or prefer talented people. Getting into a US
college and continuing my higher education was always a dream for me but it
never came to fruition because of my family background. If this process is
left to market to decide - by way of say a bidding process by employers - I'm
confident I'll be able to get in the top and beat out visa stuffing companies.
But it'd be absolute chaos competing with them and advanced degree holders.
Reduces the chance of people like me quite a bit.

Getting a masters degree in the US is not that hard for someone with money and
does not indicate talent at all in any way. I see this as just a way for upper
middle class and rich people in India and China to migrate here and not based
on talent.

~~~
prepend
I think the reality is that the change will negatively impact you, and smart
engineers without advanced degrees. That really stinks. The change doesn’t
benefit everyone, but benefits foreign workers with advanced degrees looking
to work (and hopefully immigrate) in the US, companies and local workers,
because wages should increase at least a minor amount. But this means non-
advanced degree workers lose out.

------
dalbasal
Honestly, I have a hard time with the norms around "worker visas,"
internationally including the US.

I can't understand the liberal (both right and left) preferance for something
that seems (to me) at odds with freedom (as in speech).

On one end of the spectrum we have thingslike middle east guest workers,
almost an indentured service arrangment. On the other end, we have SV tech
workers and similar elswhere.

What protects the higher earning workers is their higher earnings, which gives
them more options and leverage.

Regardless most are bound to an employer, one way or another. They inarguably
have much less freedom. They can't make the same choices (eg. work part time,
career break). Other choices require bureaucratic approval (change job, start
a business, go to uni).

If citizens were subjected to these sorts of restrictions, it would be
considered a liberal travesty. Since when is liberty subject to citizenship?

To be clear, I'm not against skilled migration. In practice, i think there
would be almost no negatives to allowing skilled migrants (same criteria)
their freedom.

~~~
CalRobert
I think this is one of the unintended consequences of strong welfare states.
If your government spends $xx,xxx per resident per year then someone who
arrives and doesn't contribute at least $xx,xxx is a net drain on resources.
At the VERY least, you need to ensure your population produces at least
$xx,xxx per year in gov't revenue.

While I am strongly in support of things like free healthcare, education, etc.
I can also see how adding residents who aren't net contributors threatens
those systems. If Canada let any 60 year old American with health problems
immigrae regardless of their ability to help pay for the health system it
would reduce care for existing Canadian residents. After all, they're almost
certainly going to cost more over their life than they kick in via tax.

Of course, the same argument can go dark places, like forcing people to get
exit visas to leave. After all, the state put a lot of money in to your
upbringing, you owe them!

Current visa regimes work pretty well to encourage this sort of behaviour.
Young, educated people with lots of promise who will work hard (thus the tie
to employment) or old people with millions can move. Others, well, can't.

Barring that, sometimes less-educated people can move but in ways that try to
ensure they don't become a burden (you work here for a set time and then
you're kicked out)

I sometimes wonder if the current system of heavy indebtedness for school and
housing helps ensure people work as hard as possible and pay as much in taxes
as possible as opposed to allowing them more leisure. Without having to cover
a mortgage or health insurance, how many people would work part time? Or how
many couples would have a stay at home parent?

There were fewer formal barriers to moving not that long ago. The US had
pretty much unrestricted immigration in the 19th century, but it also spent
very little per resident. Passport restrictions in Europe showed up for WWI
(well, briefly for Napoleon too IIRC) and never really left, probably because
WWI also roughly coincided with cheap international travel.

~~~
dalbasal
That's definitely an argument that comes up, with purchase, in politics.

I don't really think it has much (if any) validity. Taken as a whole, skilled
migrants ar just to unlikely to be net recipients of redistributive
governance. Skilled migration usually means educated, healthy, employable
young (< 35-40) people. That's almost always a population in terms good
tax/consumption ratios.

I'd also note that I'm more comfortable (as a liberal) with denying migrants
certain positive rights (eg unemployment payments) than basic freedoms.

I think the welfarist-natuonalist argument amounts to a kind of "optimising-in
our-favour." Why not get an even better tax/expenditure ratio out of migrants.

~~~
CalRobert
I think we agree - skilled migrants are fine. I'm a skilled migrant (I hope!)
and I pay more in income tax than about 90-95% of the people in my adopted
country. But they wouldn't be thrilled if I'd tried to move here when I was
70. Unless I had a giant pile of cash, of course.

I don't _like_ that it pretty much all comes down to money. I'd love to be
able to say "this buddy of mine is a broke artist but he's super sound, great
guy, plays the drums like nobody else and brings joy to all around him -
that's the kind of person you want right?" but I don't know of a way to
implement that sort of system without 1) being incredibly prone to bias and 2)
being pretty expensive if you're not careful.

------
tumidpandora
As an immigrant myself, I welcome this move. Please note that this change
impacts issuance of fresh H1Bs and does not relate to or assist/impact
existing H1B holders in any way.

Against common misconception, it's important to know that H1B also compete for
an open job requisition like everyone else. Sadly, H1Bs are eligible to apply
only for a small percentage of the open requisitions which often read - only
W2 need apply (implying people with green cards / work authorizations or
citizens) and sometimes explicitly as - 'accepting applications from green
card holders and citizens only'.

H1B are also mostly 'stuck' to their current jobs / positions and do not have
the flexibility to switch jobs (until they reach a certain stage in their
visa). They're allowed to switch but this requires the hiring org to reprocess
their green card application from scratch in majority of the cases. This is
especially true from people from India and China.

It's one thing to say - you're allowed to switch, it another to be able to
actually do it without getting penalized or expect your hiring org to invest
into your green card process.

I could go on but i'd sum this up as there's more to h1b than meets the eye
and what's out there isn't a true and complete representation of an Indian or
Chinese h1b worker. It's tough to be in the shoes of an H1B who's worked and
lived here and made a life for his family, yet lives in fear and uncertainty
of losing his job or work authorization everyday.

Selection for a job should be based on merit and your personal / professional
qualifications among other factors, and not with a bias towards your visa
status. The best man for the job.

------
1024core
I don't think this will have that much of an impact (of course, it'll impact a
good number of people).

The highest impact would be if they allowed easy H1B transfer to other
companies with similar jobs. Right now, H1B is pretty much like indentured
servitude (it _has_ become better in the past few years, and it was waaay
worse at one time).

The other change would be to give priority based on salary. That will
encourage H1B employers to pay more; thus, attracting more USCs.

------
prickledpear
I'm trying to understand exactly what is changing.

From the article are they just switching the order of the two lotteries? They
aren't actually raising the number of visas offered, right?

This just has the effect of allocating more of the 85,000 visas granted to
those with a Master's degree or PhD, right?

I'm sure the universities that heavily recruit international students to their
graduate programs will love this.

~~~
ufo
Graduate students are either on F or J visas. The article is talking about
H-1B visas.

~~~
BeetleB
A large number (most?) of the H-1B visas go to students on F visas who have a
job offer and want to change their status. Almost all the foreigners that I
know on H-1B visas in my company came from a F visa. Some definitely were
recruited from abroad, but it's simple economics. With so many people
graduating from US universities, it's a lot easier to interview and
subsequently apply for an H-1B for someone already here.

------
Zombiethrowaway
"master’s or higher degree from a U.S. institution"

This puts at a competitive disadvantage international universities over US
ones, regardless of education performance.

It sounds like protectionism, which will translate into more foreign students
applying for US universities, driving education costs even higher.

You will now definitely buy a degree/name, not so much an education.

Sad.

~~~
raquo
"accomplished a degree in a host country and obtained a relevant job offer
thereafter" is a very good proxy for a lot of desirable properties in
immigrants, at least in Canada (per official statistics).

Besides, foreign education credentials and work experience can be very easy to
fake depending on home country, so it's understandable that it's worth less in
the eyes of immigration systems.

In Canada we have lots of foreign students, and while there are some issues
(nothing is perfect), they pay much more than domestic students, essentially
funding the higher education institutions. Education is some of the best
things you can export, if done properly.

~~~
hocuspocus
Thing is, if you want to hire foreign, experienced, high-skilled workers, by
definition they won't hold a US degree.

The current system favors immigrants that can afford a Master's degree at low-
tier for-profit universities (see what happened to the Silicon Valley
University). The change will take this even further.

Canada has a non-trivial but straightforward path to permanent residency that
tries to be fair to both domestic students and experienced immigrants. It's
not really comparable.

------
jdlyga
My now wife went through so much trouble with her H1-B, even though she
graduated with a Master's from a United States university and was working in
the United States. Yet she got stuck in the lottery system. Don't we want high
skilled workers contributing to the economy? Even when we got married, we had
to wait over a year for her green card for her and went through an interview.
The immigration system is tough and cumbersome.

~~~
BeetleB
With the new system, she will have a better chance at getting the visa. Why
the concern?

Edit: I'm being down voted, but I don't understand. The change actually
prioritizes MS students.

~~~
skybrian
Why should anyone be happy when there's a chance they won't be allowed to
work? Even if the chance is lower, it's still something to be concerned about.
(Edited)

~~~
BeetleB
Note that I never suggested one should be _happy_. And I'm not sure what
you're proposing. Let anyone who is in the US be allowed to work and just give
them an automatic H-1 visa? Or do that for people who have an MS degree or
higher? If the latter, realize you are providing a criterion - one which
someone with just a high school degree can say the same as you said:

>Even if the chance is lower, it's still not right.

If you accept that there needs to be _some_ criterion, then it's simply a
matter of where the line is drawn - and most people draw the line that
conveniently works for them. For the person who posted this, the change in
rules improves the chances of someone in the situation his wife was in.

------
abhayb
This will make getting work visas even harder for folks with only U.S.
undergrad degrees. Expect growth in 4+1 and 3+1 integrated Masters programs to
compensate. Prioritizing people with U.S. degrees is a pretty reasonable move.
And given the existing structure, prioritizing U.S. Masters degrees is also
reasonable. But a B.S. in CS is qualitatively equivalent to an M.S. The lack
of nuance is not surprising but still unfortunate.

~~~
raz32dust
"Prioritizing people with U.S. degrees is a pretty reasonable move. And given
the existing structure, prioritizing U.S. Masters degrees is also reasonable."
\- Why do you think so?

~~~
abhayb
Roughly three parts to this. First off, these folks are already "here" . Busy
learning to America. Paying tuition to their schools and taxes from their
internships/OPTs. Contributing and being contributed to so that there's
already a relationship between them, the country, and the country's citizens.

This is also what a lot of other countries do so it's consistent with "the way
things are done".

Finally, it seems politically expedient. There are already provisions for
prioritizing Masters degrees. This change is a modification of those
provisions. That (crucially) doesn't have to go anywhere near the legislature.

These particular masses are not huddled. Nor are they all leading lights
(though some will grow into greatness in time) . So there are also plenty of
reasonable arguments against this approach.

~~~
GreaterFool
> This is also what a lot of other countries do

As an expat for the bigger part of my life I can't think of a country that
would prioritize their own institutions when applying for a visa. Generally
there's simply a category for advanced degree holders.

~~~
xtreme
Canada's Express Entry system for skilled immigrants gives you more points if
you attended college in Canada. Giving priority to people who have already
integrated into the society makes perfect sense to me.

~~~
GreaterFool
At the same time that kinda cripples the ability to hire highly-skilled
foreigners, isn't it? It's artificially limiting the pool of viable
candidates.

Just imagine a PhD (or even a Master's degree holder) from Europe, a leader in
their field. With this system they are at a huge disadvantage and so are
companies that would like to hire them.

As someone mentioned this system will just lead to straight to masters
degrees. Those "body shop" outsourcing companies just need their candidates to
attend _any_ (does online count?) US-based masters degree and then business as
usual.

Having a Masters from "some" university doesn't make anyone highly skilled.

~~~
scarejunba
Canada is points-based. These guys you have in mind lose on one category and
win on another category. That's why points-based systems work. You get to say
"Speaking French in my country is as valuable as if you held a Masters degree
from here". There are so many bases to add up to the value that anyone with
that skill would almost certainly make it.

------
travisoneill1
They should assign limits based on salary, lets say 150% of industry standard,
not education level. There is no measure of skill less meaningful than a
degree.

~~~
barry-cotter
Just fill the quota based on salary from highest base salary to lowest until
you run out of visas. Who cares about industry standard?

~~~
ab_1717
This leads to a problem where locations with generally lower wages, while also
needing skilled workers, cannot compete with locations that have generally
higher wages.

------
b_tterc_p
for what it is, this seems like a good change. Not a big change, but it should
reduce the idiocy of letting people learn valuable things and then not letting
them stay to use it.

~~~
adventured
It's truly an absurdity how many foreign people US universities have educated
with the US immigration laws then making it a nightmare to stay, become a US
citizen, and make a valuable contribution to the US economy that made those
universities possible in the first place. All progress toward not shooting
ourselves in the foot is definitely a good thing.

------
redditmigrant
The discussion here is reflective of the problem that plagues immigration law.
Any change to immigration system is not looked at through an incrementality
lens, but through the lens of the overall system and its problems.

This change makes it more likely for graduates of US universities to get H1B
visas, yet the discussion is on the overall merit of H1Bs. Exact same thing
happens with solving the problem of country based caps on green cards which
disadvantages people based on an attribute that they have no control over -
their country of birth. Any change proposed to country based caps is looked at
with whether the overall high skilled immigration system is good or not.

Its like no one wants to fix any bugs and people are only interested in a
complete system rewrite. So every bug report and code review becomes a
discussion platform for the problems of the overall system.

------
wufufufu
My parents are immigrants. I wish we would just let in a random sample of the
global population instead of having selection factors. Or maybe not let in any
immigrants at all.

The purpose of these kinds of requirements is to bring in workers for rich
American CEOs. It's not because we enjoy the company of immigrants or want to
learn their culture. Artificial selection for master degrees just creates
stereotypes and leads to things like "the model minority". Imagine if we only
let in strong physical laborers and the type of stereotypes and race dynamics
that would create. The kind of cultural displacement you feel as an immigrant
that is toiling away in a lab to try to serve some rich CEO while you're away
from all your like-minded friends/family is depressing.

I haven't read literature on this, it's just my gut feeling.

~~~
digianarchist
That's what the DV lottery is with the exception of they exclude countries
that have a high number of people already immigrating to the United States.

------
quotemstr
Goodhart's Law [1] applies to this situation. I expect master's degrees to
become more common and less rigorous.

The whole qualification and lottery immigration system is, at best,
economically inefficient. Instead of bothering with salary bands and education
requirements, the government should auction off work visas, thereby ensuring
that slots go to their most economically productive use. A cap-and-trade
system lets the market find its own level.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law)

------
raz32dust
It would have been a positive change if they did not have the restriction that
the Masters must be from a US university. What's wrong with non-US
universities? I don't see why degree even matters. Like someone suggested in a
previous similar thread, just sorting by pay and giving higher wages more
priority (perhaps with some sort of normalization to compensate for cost of
living and the field of work) is much better.

~~~
sct202
It's a gamble to come to America to get educated (cost, cultural adjustment,
visa issues), and I think that we should show preference to those students who
have made that extra effort to live and study in America over other people.

~~~
raz32dust
I just answered this elsewhere as well. This reasoning would make sense if
that's what they said. But the explicit reason for the changes is to get more
"skilled" workers in. Then, it should not matter if the degree was from US or
Europe or China. I would have accepted this reason if they had separate
weightage for "How long the person spent time in the US". This particular
formulation puts a graduate from Europe at a disadvantage, for example.

------
blocked_again
I opened the article with so many expectations. Then realized it changes
nothing. How does having enough money to get a masters from US make one high
skilled developer? The only people who are going to benefit from this are the
American Universities.

~~~
vilifiedtwin
Exactly that. I know so many people with masters degree that cannot code at
all. They only learned how to pass exams but have no ability to solve problems
on their own. I would argue that talented people would rather avoid a place
where they cannot learn anything useful and universities more and more become
just that. My view is that the US shoots themselves in a foot and that is good
for other countries.

------
smg
The most important thing that needs to be changed about the H1B program is how
the green card is linked to your particular employer. The H1B program is
almost like indentured servitude for the vast majority of workers of Indian or
Chinese origin because of the delay in getting a green card. It would be
impossible for any employer to exploit H1B workers if the visa was not linked
to an employer but to the tax paid by the worker. As long as the worker stays
in a particular (federal) tax bracket the worker should be allowed to engage
in any work that they desired.

------
winter_blue
The sheer and staggering amount of hatred for immigrants in here is appalling.
If people had the same hatred for immigrants a 100 years, most of the
ancestors of the balls of hatred on this thread would have been excluded. The
skilled immigrant limit is a joke -- approximately 0.02% of the population.
Also, incredibly hard: [https://www.vox.com/2015/6/23/8823349/immigration-
system-bro...](https://www.vox.com/2015/6/23/8823349/immigration-system-
broken)

------
known
95% people prefer to quit India due to
[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-
wo...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-
racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html) and [https://www.quora.com/Which-
caste-is-looting-India/answer/Ad...](https://www.quora.com/Which-caste-is-
looting-India/answer/Adarsh-Sapoota)

------
DrAwdeOccarim
I see a lot of people complain that H1B is used to import cheap tech workers.
In biotech, I haven't seem this as a problem. In fact, I just sponsored a few
of my employees to get H1Bs and it worked out fine. This seems like a solution
from the tech side of things, but in the biotech side of things I don't think
this was a problem because everyone was already high-skilled?

------
simplecomplex
This is a sad day for the USA, as we move further from the principles that
made us great.

This is discrimination, and nothing to celebrate. People without degrees
deserve equal treatment. People who want to work lower-paid jobs deserve equal
treatment.

America should stand for liberty, personal responsibility, and equality of
opportunity. Not racism and elitism.

Our immigration laws continue to be a stain on this great nation.

------
tr33house
Unfortunately, the more school == more skilled proxy doesn't always works and
often fails in tech where informal experience matters

~~~
picacho
more school != more skilled proxy should have it's range. A rank 100+ cs grad
school is quite obvious showing a person's learning skill if anyone knows how
applying for a cs master in the USA works. One could argue a UCSC graduate
doesn't have a good skill set but hardly to say a SIT graduate has a better
learning skill. And a SIT graduate is also a 'master' of science in cs, which
is able to participate the 'advance' degree h1b lottery slot. How absurd..

------
brookhaven_dude
They lost an opportunity to really overhaul the system that would have drawn
support from liberal groups. Like turning H1B allocation process into an
auction - let the company that offers highest compensation win the visa. And
associating the visa with the employee not the employer, so they are free to
switch around.

------
abhij89
for non-subscribed users:
[https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/reversal-
in-h-1...](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/reversal-
in-h-1b-lottery-order-first-priority-to-us-degree-
holders/articleshow/67764048.cms)

------
jefftk
Why don't we auction off H1B slots, either directly (government gets the
money) or via the companies offering the highest comp getting to bring people
in? You could also do some combination of the two.

------
true_tuna
Does anyone actually read the WSJ links that get posted here? It’s
subscription only so linking from here only works if you already subscribe, at
which point you’re not linking from hacker news...

------
sbmthakur
Couldn't read this due to the Subscription/Sign-in wall. May I know how does
this affect Masters(Computer Science) students in the US. I've got few friends
studying there now.

------
jl2718
Education level seems really arbitrary and exploitable. Maybe auction work
visas for income tax bonds. Pay interest so that new grads can bid for them
through lenders.

~~~
anticensor
That would be even more exploitable and cause an uncontrollable immigration
policy. You would get vast numbers of Muslim extremist immigrants who would
refuse to adapt and wreak havoc, like Syrian refuge crisis in Turkey.

------
thewhitetulip
Can someone tell me this, if H1B visas were stopped then what will happen?
Won't all these companies just set up operations in India/China?

Or will they expand in US itself?

------
sathishvj
What happens if somebody has taken a remote master's course from a US
university? Is there a note on that?

p.s. it does not apply to me anyways, but just want to know.

------
4ad
I have extensive experience working in the industry for the past 13 years, but
I don't even have a bachelor's degree. Am I screwed?

------
GreaterFool
While I think allocating more visas to advanced degree holders is a good idea,
why restrict it to US institutions? Weird.

------
picacho
if you have 13 years experience and don't even have a bachelor's degree, you
are not screwed, just stay where you are, unless you are as good as Linus T,
just stay where you are, we have lots of talents with > 13years experience
without a degree here in the US already :-)

------
picacho
define high-skilled workers. Currently an steven's institute graduate cs
master could get a h1b visa by lottery while a Harvard graduate might not be
that lucky. Consider this, is knowing how to use kubernetes anything harder
than working in a Physics Lab? The system is flawed~~

------
jorblumesea
Why do we care about a masters degree from some India degree farm? It seems
like the emphasis on accreditation misses the point entirely. There's no
quality control in the US immigration process. For every brilliant engineer we
get someone garbage. For every innovator or entrepreneur we get someone who is
just the mother's uncle's in-law.

~~~
thewhitetulip
Contrary to the rhetoric, unless you are buying your degree from shitty
colleges which exist on paper, it's very difficult to get bachelor's and
master's degree in India.

I'm an Indian and I know that because the entrance exams are tough.

But yes, emphasis on masters degree missed the point.

------
chrisper
It's kind of weird that work experience can't replace the master degree in
this case.

------
paxys
TL;DR - the cap is still at 85,000 visas/year, but this change will result in
approximately 5,340 more applicants with master's degrees getting visas over
those with just bachelor's.

IMO it is a pretty insignificant change overall, since this is hardly a good
metric in determining skill, and the system is still lottery based.

------
seshagiric
It's actually a good move:

a. Trump can now say he 'fixed' the h1-b system :)

b. Due to all the visa restrictions talks, US universities were seeing drop in
foreign MS students, that will likely get fixed.

------
self_awareness
Non-paywall URL: [https://www.geekwire.com/2019/new-h-1b-visa-rules-take-
effec...](https://www.geekwire.com/2019/new-h-1b-visa-rules-take-effect-
april-1-changing-tech-companies-hire-foreign-born-talent/)

Not the same article but seems like it's the same subject.

------
rajacombinator
H1B is indentured servitude, that’s why corporate America loves it. This
measure will do nothing but increase masters mill programs, punishing both
smart immigrants and Americans. Basically, another brutal, but expected,
betrayal of campaign promises by the hapless Trump administration.

------
known
H1B = Organised mafia

------
notyourloops
He campaigned on the opposite, didn't he?

~~~
nojvek
Probably not the popular opinion here but the way I see trump is he was
campaigning hard against “illegal immigration”.

He didn’t explicitly say he’s against highly skilled immigration.

Trump may be an idiot but it seems people incharge of immigration have their
head straight and H1Bs are in sore need of a revamp.

I hope the trend continues. America works because hard working and talented
people want to come here and make beautiful things people want and build their
dreams.

~~~
notyourloops
I thought I remember it being a campaign position, mainly stemming from it
applying downward wage pressure on tech workers. It looks like it used to be
but then he changed it.

> Donald Trump signaled a shift in his stance on visas for highly-skilled
> workers Thursday night, moving away from the position he took on his
> campaign website.

Source: [https://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-
updates...](https://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-updates-and-
results/2016/03/trump-immigration-h1b-visas-gop-debate-220233)

Looks like he's flip-flopped a few times.

------
dschn_dstryr
HN should make a rule against articles behind paywalls.

------
djinnandtonic
Paywalled.

~~~
dan_dev_this
[https://www.marketwatch.com/story/h-1b-visa-process-
revamped...](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/h-1b-visa-process-revamped-to-
favor-workers-with-degrees-from-us-universities-2019-01-30)

------
sandeepvk
now i can go to US too

------
sandeepvk
now i can come to US too

------
JacobJans
Why is copyright infringement tolerated on HN?

~~~
harshulpandav
I don't see outline making money out of it (I can't see any ads). Plus it
gives credit to the original page as a link on the top left corner (I'm
viewing on mobile browser).

~~~
codycraven
This in not how copyright in the US works. Making money has absolutely nothing
to do with the criteria of infringement.

------
fourier_mode
Although it can be good for people from a personal point of view. However, the
Trump administration is trying to create a state of elitists. This
administration has time and again tried to establish this. I am not a big fan
of this idea. I would rather prefer more applicants entering through the
lottery system, and maybe a bit more preference for the struggling nations, or
those who have been hit due to US' global politics.

------
alkibiades
so more privileged/rich chinese and indians and less anyone else? (including
american workers?)

(watch anything not pro-immigration be downvoted to hell)

------
Tycho
Fun thought experiment is to think what would happen if you told ____s to
replace ____s.

What would happen if you took programmers and told them to fill the roles of
teachers?

What would happen if you took teachers and told them to replace programmers?

What would happen if you took policemen and told them to manage portfolios?

What would happen if you took nurses and told them to replace lawyers?

In some cases, everything would grind to a halt. In others, things would
rattle on but perhaps in a suboptimal manner.

I suppose there's a few variables like training time, and whether a job has
some sort of 'coasting' option, eg. portfolio managers could just buy the
index and come out OK.

