
How Apple Kills Indie Developers - fluder
https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes/issues/695
======
privateSFacct
For some perspective on apple "killing" developers.

Apple is FLOODED with copycat crap apps - 10 different names etc etc.
Seriously, the play store used to have lots more of these - maybe now cleaned
up. But saying that apple needs to encourage this crap is silly. This is what
was killing the play store.

The guy complaining here has his "privacy policy" as follows:
[https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes](https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes)

When someone who doesn't know git or github tries to read his privacy policy
they have no chance.

Why it this all apple's fault? I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a
privacy policy.

One fix, developers should be able to pay $500 to have someone give them some
training on what sections of app review guidelines they are breaking. Do 30
minutes to prep, spend an hour talking with them, then 30 minutes to wrap up.

Someone has this service - seriously - consider paying for some guidance if
you don't want to read through the lengthy Apple stuff yourself.

[https://www.iosconsultant.com/services](https://www.iosconsultant.com/services)

~~~
jen729w
Compare selling on the App Store to selling physical goods in a real store.
Can anyone just make a thing at home and take it to their local Walmart and
demand they sell it? Of course not. There are quality controls. There are
things you have to _learn_ first — that your packaging needs to be in a
suitable box, that you need to get a barcode, that it needs legal notices,
etc.

If Walmart offered a “seller’s course” where you could go and learn how to do
these things nobody would bat an eyelid. They’d probably be praised for it.

Here’s where my analogy falls apart, of course. Walmart _still_ won’t list for
sale the crappy useless thing that you made at home. Apple will.

~~~
randomdata
It also falls apart in that Walmart allows you to sell your useless thing at
other retailers or even flea markets and garage sales. Apple only allows you
to sell your useless iOS apps on their App Store.

~~~
cududa
Sell it on android play

~~~
philpem
How do you sell an iOS application on an Android-specific app store?

If you're proposing they port the app to Android -- that's a lot of work. And
the Android store is packed with even more junkware than the Apple one.

------
kemayo
Glancing at the app store review guidelines[1], I will note that this app's
listing[2] is low-key violating the privacy policy requirement by just linking
to the github repo for the app, which has no actual privacy policy listed. I
have no idea if that's enough for Apple to do a suspension-and-review process
like this, but it's definitely a violation.

That said, I think they should include at least some hint in their
communications about why they're reviewing you, particularly if it's going to
take as long as it looks like this one has.

[1] [https://developer.apple.com/app-
store/review/guidelines/](https://developer.apple.com/app-
store/review/guidelines/)

[2] [https://apps.apple.com/app/fsnotes-
manager/id1346501102](https://apps.apple.com/app/fsnotes-manager/id1346501102)

~~~
d-d
When someone doesn't have proper privacy policy links, Apple points this out
very specifically and quickly accepts the app after it's fixed. I've seen them
accept policies as simple as a plaintext link containing "We don't store any
of your data".

------
cumwolf
The AppStore experience is miserable. It sucks the life out of you as an
independent developer when they reject your app for vague reasons and you know
the turn around to get your app reviewed again is going to be another 1-3
days. The quality control is highly variant, sometimes my application goes
through intense scrutiny, sometimes it gets rejected purely for user error on
their reviewing end and other times it gets accepted without a peep. When they
do have complaints and reject your app, you can submit comments or an appeal
but they are never responded to or acknowledged. The whole process doesn't
make me excited to create another app. I've made two different apps,
avaialable on both platforms and the Google Play experience is way overall way
easier to deal with, probably because there's less human review & scrutiny
involved.

~~~
GeneralTspoon
Google Play is arguably as bad - just in different ways. At least an actual
human reviews your apps at Apple, and they do sometimes point out specific-ish
information.

At Google, since it's all bots, a random algorithm change can remove your app
from the store overnight. With Apple, if you get through the review process
you're usually safe. Not to mention random bans by association (e.g. if a
developer at your company has previously had a banned account, then the
company account could be banned due to association with this developer - there
are a few horror stories out there about this).

------
YooLi
Feels like there are some pieces missing from the story.

This isn't a "we won't approve your app because it's not following the app
guidelines" rejection or an app stuck in review purgatory. (I once had an
Apple TV app stuck in review for 10 weeks before it magically was approved
with no changes from me.) This is a "your account did something it shouldn't
have done" flag. The whole account is suspended for an alleged infraction of
"App Store Review Guidelines’ Developer Code of Conduct". Did your account do
contract work on other "spammy" apps or similar? Even if you worked on
completely different apps, it's not unprecedented for Apple to just blow the
whole account up if it's in any way tied.

Edit to add Code of Conduct:

 _5.6 Developer Code of Conduct Please treat everyone with respect, whether in
your responses to App Store reviews, customer support requests, or when
communicating with Apple, including your responses in Resolution Center. Do
not engage in harassment of any kind, discriminatory practices, intimidation,
bullying, and don’t encourage others to engage in any of the above. Customer
trust is the cornerstone of the App Store’s success. Apps should never prey on
users or attempt to rip-off customers, trick them into making unwanted
purchases, force them to share unnecessary data, raise prices in a tricky
manner, charge for features or content that are not delivered, or engage in
any other manipulative practices within or outside of the app._

~~~
matwood
> Did your account do contract work on other "spammy" apps or similar?

This is a good question. I've seen the stories before where a person who had
normal apps did contract work on scam apps _in the same account_ , and then
wonder why their account ends up in review.

~~~
fluder
No, in account only FSNotes for macOS and iOS. macOS version updates without
problems

------
gameswithgo
The google store operates in the same way. Application developers need to band
together and quit accepting these locked down store monopolies. They aren't
good for consumers either. The usual justification is that these stores reduce
fruad and malware, but I have found the opposite to be true. Having a single
store leads to an aggressive race to the bottom, where gaming the store
ranking is priority one. Last two times I tried to find a rather obvious piece
of software on apple store (a chess program, and a stopwatch program) I
couldn't even find stuff that wasn't misleading adware ridden crap.

~~~
ancorevard
"They aren't good for consumers either."

Can't speak for the Google store, but as a consumer, I definitely trust
Apple's apps more than random developers' apps. So in Apple's case, I always
appreciate when they provide another service/app that I can use, because their
values on privacy aligns with mine and they have built up a trust relationship
with me.

~~~
jtbayly
But that’s completely different than the question of what the App Store
accomplishes. Apple didn’t need or develop an App Store to distribute their
own apps, but third party ones.

------
labmixz
Kind of one sided. The developer who posted this didn't include his emails to
Apple. With that being said, it's hard to determine what was said to support.

Did said developer ask why his account is currently under investigation? Hard
to determine since he only posted what Apple sent back.

Personally I have 5 Apps on the AppStore, have for many years, they are small
bs apps that don't have much to them (stuff like a Migraine Tracker, before
HealthKit was a thing, etc..). I've never ran into an issue with my apps being
reviewed. Yes, some have taken awhile, Apple is flooded with requests and
they've increased requirements (etc) which only makes things take longer.

But since this really isn't about the Application being submitted, more so
about the user's account under investigation. I would venture to say, there's
something else going on that said Developer isn't posting.

Your $99 developer subscription means nothing if you violate their terms. All
that $99 does is weed out even more potential malicious developers (as most
won't bother with paying $99 and will just go to Android).

With that being said, the amount of developers submitting apps for review,
Apple should find some way to review apps faster, especially since it is
something we pay for. But there are a lot of developers trying to be sneaky
and make simple applications for more complicated than they should be to sneak
in code to either collect or steal data they have no business with. The more
developers that do this, the more extensive review process Apple will have,
the longer the wait times will be.

------
bitL
Google:

REPEAT

We have suspended your AdSense account due to our ML system flagging you for
fraud (yes, we trust it) and we can't tell you why (no, we really can't tell
you even if we wanted to).

UNTIL customer goes away or the case gets enough upvotes on HN to be a PR
problem

Amazon:

REPEAT

We have removed your seller privileges due to a change in our policies we
didn't communicate to anyone and you likely selling a brand that was recently
put on a gated list or our ML system is thinking you are a fraud because you
logged in in private mode.

UNTIL customer goes away or hires a consulting company with ties to Amazon
managers

Apple:

REPEAT

We have placed your account under review with opaque "policy violation" but we
won't tell you why (like Google we can't tell as some of our ML models have
good day flagging you for reasons known only to them). Or you might have
tweeted something 5 years ago against a company we just acquired. Well, bad
luck.

UNTIL developer goes away

FAANG customer service in a nutshell.

~~~
fluder
Similar story bro, techno giants fu __us :(

------
ineedasername
basically this: "You broke a rule. We won't tell you what rule, or how you
broke it. But we're going to punish you for it."

~~~
bitL
They don't know and can't really tell. ML fraud/flagging systems are opaque
and non-interpretable. They can also change with each re-training that might
happen daily.

~~~
wwweston
Which is why ML flagging fundamentally shouldn't be used for some unreviewed
or non-reversible judgments.

~~~
bitL
I can understand that the choice is more like:

1) auto-review with false positives/negatives

2) no review at all

Frankly, I don't have a solution outside an unrealistic one hiring external
experts reviewing each submission which would probably deplete the pool of
developers all around the world.

------
FpUser
I really feel for those who fall victim of this huge companies that under
various disguises trying to get full control of people's lives and business. I
am lucky that so far I have managed to avoid all this walled garden madness.
All of my products so far are either desktop based or browser based and
servers are hosted on my own/rented hardware, no cloudy stuff. Other than
paying for security certificates every now and then I have no interaction with
the "authorities of the Internet"

Frankly I do not understand why do people submit to this kind of stewardship

~~~
xnyan
"Frankly I do not understand why do people submit to this kind of stewardship"
Uhhh:

"I am lucky that so far I have managed to avoid all this walled garden
madness"

"All of my products..."

"...desktop based or browser based and servers are hosted on my own/rented
hardware"

This is like a professional chef saying they don't understand why everyone
does not make their own souffles. People want the same services you want, but
are not software developers. I have to assume you're being very facetious?

~~~
FpUser
"why everyone does not make their own souffles" \- I am not only developer. I
am also a customer. And I avoid those McDonalds of the Internet like a plague.
Not always successful but mostly.

~~~
xnyan
I think you are underselling yourself. Your knowledge in this area exceeds
well over 90% of the market. For most people, effectively (as in, in practice)
you have two choices - use FAANG services or don't use the internet.

Also, and I don't know this, but if I were to look at your service stack, are
you telling me I could not find ANY google/amazon/cloudflare service or
something that significantly relied on on them? I would be shocked to find out
that's true (i've literally never seen it before) and in that case. the
difference between you and a consumer is one of degrees.

Sorry, not trying to attack you but on HN i see a widespread "I can't believe
how dumb people are selling out to google for nothing" mentality that makes no
sense to me. If you use the internet at all, you use big tech services.
Period. Some people don't like saying that, but it's still true.

~~~
FpUser
I sure use FAANG where it is irreplaceable. As developer I use Azure, Github,
etc for example for my consulting gigs where clients demand it. Also guilty
using Amazon, Netflix personally. Network card that I buy from Amazon is not
any different from the one I get in my local computer store. But I also have
my own products. And for those you will not find any trace of FAANG in there.
I just do not need their "added value" and them squeezing my you know what.
Just to give you an idea: my so called smartphone has offline GPS program,
cycling computer and obviously voice calls and camera. Texting is disabled and
no data plan. Yes I do understand that I have more knowledge than many people
(former scientist), still that ready submission to anything attitude that I
see more and more is definitely different from something that I saw for
example 20 years ago

------
urda
Each time I've seen this type of article make the news cycle it's as follows:

\- Apple does X against small / indie developer! I know it makes for a great
headline.

\- Indie developer did no harm, rights a heart tugger of a blog post.

\- Post reaches front of HN, reddit, etc ...

\- Further digging shows not only did the indie developer not follow
guidelines, they blatantly ignored them.

\- Indie dev is exposed for not following Apple guidelines.

The way the issue is written makes it seem a considerable amount of
information is being hidden. I'm going to wait until the dust settles before I
take any sides.

~~~
simion314
Each time Apple does some mistake the fanboys defend Apple and accuse the
legitimate customer, then when Apple is forced to admit the mistake same
fanboys praise Apple.

Some recent examples:

\- the keyboard issues, when first reports appeared people were accused they
were using them wrong, eating and drinking while typing

\- the videos with the Macbook catching fire, people were accusing that person
that it was fake or he used it wrong

I would conclude that Apple can make mistakes and I would stop accusing people
of using things wrong.

------
css
Back in 2013/14 I got into it with the approval team [0] but I was at least
able to get responses and feedback. I am really surprised they outright ignore
devs now, especially since they have significantly scaled up review team sizes
[1].

I also don't see how this is related to apple "killing" indie devs; there are
tons of notes apps in the store, this one is probably just breaking some
guideline.

[0] [https://chrissardegna.com/blog/posts/get-an-app-
approved/](https://chrissardegna.com/blog/posts/get-an-app-approved/)

[1] [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-28/why-
did-a...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-28/why-did-apple-
reject-my-app-ex-head-of-app-store-review-explains)

------
phendrenad2
If Apple put the care and attention into app store reviews that they put into
their iPhone/iPad hardware and iOS, they would have actual humans review
everything. But the "race to the bottom" mentality has taken root, and if left
unchecked will spread to the rest of the company IMO.

------
dlojudice
I just think its weird when someone blames Apple for being so much in control
of their app store

~~~
djsumdog
Developers pay money to access. In the ticket, the developer mentions paying
the $99 a year. That's not trivial.

Apple is literally in the top 10 largest companies in the world for several
different measures. If they're achieving those numbers by giving the ole F'you
to developers, that is a problem. Getting locked out of a distribution
platform for 1~3 months, in today's world can cost thousands or even tens of
thousands in sales even for small developers.

There are no other options for Apple. You can't install untrusted apps like
you can on Android (which is still a huge pain and which no one does).

I almost feel like someone like the EU or California needs to mandate that
both Apple and Google allow individual users to add 3rd party repositories in
the same way you can on most Linux package managers. They can throw up a big
warning about device security if they want, but unless there's regulations
around it, there's no way for the average use to actually have control over
his or her device.

~~~
toasterlovin
> the developer mentions paying the $99 a year. That's not trivial.

If you're running a business, that is very much trivial. I just paid my bank
$40 to send a wire transfer to a vendor. It costs $39.99 per month to be able
to make apps for Amazon sellers. Out here in the real world stuff and services
cost money.

~~~
chryton
> Out here in the real world stuff and services cost money.

... which means the amount of money spent is _not_ trivial. If you are not
policing your costs, regardless of how "trivial," then how are you optimizing
your profit? A "cost of doing business" is still a cost on your books. $100 is
trivial for a larger business but if you're talking someone small or a side
hustle, $100 is something that is not trivial.

~~~
filleduchaos
I say this as someone who lives in a developing country: if you cannot afford
$100 _a year_ in costs, then Apple and app development in general are very
much the least of your worries.

------
edpichler
I have a similar problem with Youtube. I created original content and they
blocked, saying that is not original. No details, impossible to talk with a
person.

I always end up enforcing my theory that some companies are becoming too
powerful.

------
msephton
This is so disheartening! It is guilty until proven innocent.

I've had similar experiences as a seller on eBay: when a buyer reports you
they react in favour of the buyer because buyers make their business model
work.

I suspect it's the same here, that Apple have received some sort of complaint
about the iOS app (given that the macOS app is unaffected) and the automatic
"guilty until proven innocent" system has been activated. And sadly the only
thing to do is wait for it to finish. It could be something like waiting 60 or
90 days without any further complaints of the same nature. You could hope for
intervention by a sympathetic App Store employee or rep, but I don't know how
likely that will be.

To add insult to injury there is also the fact that this is an open source app
and dishonest people are cloning it and selling it, and Apple are slow to take
them down if they do at all.

------
ropiwqefjnpoa
Any idea why they would want to kill your notes app? There are already a bunch
out there and Notes has been around forever.

~~~
mikepurvis
I don't think they have to _want_ to do anything. This is just the reality of
a faceless bureaucracy which isn't accountable to anyone or anything. To the
dev, their app is their livelihood— to Apple, it's just a ticket in a queue
somewhere.

~~~
TomBombadildoze
> This is just the reality of a faceless bureaucracy which isn't accountable
> to anyone or anything.

Please. They're accountable to their one billion plus customers who depend on
them to keep as much riff raff as possible out of the app store. They're
likewise accountable to the developers who created this market.

Apple's process is imperfect. They certainly raise a lot of false negatives.
The requirements are sometimes onerous and nebulous. However, the alternative
is knowingly peddling hot garbage and harming their customers, partners,
third-party developers, and thus, their own business.

~~~
mikepurvis
Sure, but 90% of users just want their email, Facebook, and Netflix. Apart
from that, they want a search bar to find other stuff. If you're an app
developer targeting that "other stuff" market, Apple has no business reason to
care about the individual you or your specific app other than in aggregate.

------
fluder
Some news. App approved without any clarifications. I am still dont know why
updates was blocked. Investigation warning still exist in my account.

------
crb002
Sue them in Iowa State Court where the are building a a massive new data
center. Recommend Attorney Gary Dickey or attorney Julia Ofenbakh.

------
xenospn
This is very odd. I’ve always found interactions with the Apple App Store
review people to be very smooth and they always tell me exactly what they’re
looking for while reviewing my app. If they can’t find it, i get back to them
and they finish their review in under an hour. I get the feeling someone isn’t
telling the whole story here.

~~~
matwood
Same. I do feeling like something is missing in this story.

~~~
xenospn
Makes sense since it saves them a tremendous amount of back and forth with the
developers when they're as specific as possible.

------
vxNsr
Do you have any speculation about why they would do this?

~~~
fluder
This happened after I revoked the approved app. I found critical bug and
reupload my app. After this actions my app was locked :(

~~~
djsumdog
Maybe the right solution was to not revoke the current app and just upload the
fix? If it was a security bug, that kinda sucks for security, but if the cost
is being locked out of your developer account, that might be what developers
need to do going forward.

~~~
gcheong
Maybe, maybe not. It sounds to me like they revoked the app because they
didn't want users to suffer a critical bug until they could put out a fix. I
think that's a good thing and I see no reason why it should trigger an
investigation, but we'll never know because of Apple's lack of transparency.

------
antoinevg
Antitrust moves slow but when it comes it hits like the proverbial hammer
smashing a wall-sized tv screen.

Remember when all the Microsofties were gloating about how it was never gonna
happen to them?

Pepperidge farm remembers…

~~~
scarface74
And for all intents and purposes it was a minor slap on the wrist and
Microsoft to this day still is one of the rare companies whose market cap
hovers around 1 trillion.

------
mikepechadotcom
Time to ditch native

------
hesburg
Huh, I was waiting Apple to approve my app about 7 weeks.. I really started to
wonder whole app development in IOS platform.

Why in earth we need to pay 100 dollars to keep our Dev license and keep apps
in store ?

Anyway, android app development has less sandbox feeling at the moment..

------
happyweasel
Write your core app in cross-platform C++, decoupling the UI (maybe using MVP
or similar approaches), then switch to another platform.

~~~
princekolt
Completely pointless non-actionable advice.

"Help! My compact got stuck in the snow"

"Buy a 4x4 and replace the wheels with tracks, that will get you going
anywhere"

