
What it’s like to own an electric car - kaboro
http://www.robertjacksonbennett.com/blog/what-its-like-to-own-an-electric-car
======
GlenTheMachine
I bought a used 2017 Leaf a few months ago, and it’s been great.

I commute 75-90 miles per day depending on the route I use. There are no
chargers at work (which is a military installation). The Leaf is technically
rated at 95 miles range, but I am getting 120 out of it. However, the Level 1
charging wasn’t going to cut it. I would fully charge the car over the
weekend, but I’d never quite get back to full during the week, and would have
to track down a DC fast charger on Thursday. Which are quite expensive,
actually; the cost is equivalent to the amount gasoline would cost for the
same number of miles you get. Installed a Level 2 charger (for $2000) and
since then there’s been no problem.

I do have other vehicles, but given how much less expensive the Leaf is to
drive than my previous ride (a Honda Fit) if I didn’t it would absolutely make
financial sense to rent a car the five or six times a year I make road trips.
The car is so inexpensive to drive that it actually makes more sense for us to
park my wife’s fully paid off F150 and get her a Leaf as well. The amount
we’re spending on gas and repairs on the truck is more than the monthly
payment on the car loan for the Leaf plus the electricity.

~~~
Taartvarken
Why do you buy a F150 if you can manage with a Leaf?!

~~~
GlenTheMachine
Because I have a farm. We have to have a truck regardless. But at the moment
my wife is commuting in the truck.

~~~
woodandsteel
You will be happy to learn that electric pickup trucks are coming real soon.

------
Fradow
The most important takeaway is not all the rambling on the EV, but the
conclusion.

I live in one of those dense cities (Paris), with bike lanes and good public
transportation, with several micromobile electric transportation offerings,
and it's great! For most people living there, buying a car just wouldn't cross
their mind. Parking is hard to find, stupidely expensive (as it should be),
roads are congested, and shrinking (thanks to our mayor actions), and cars
upkeep is prohibitive.

Most people do take public transportation to vacations as well. I'm in the
minority, borrowing (I'd loan otherwise) an ICE vehicle for holidays, and I'm
very happy with that.

While some people think EV are the second coming of cars, I'm starting to
question their ecological benefits. Sure, they aren't burning fossil fuels to
move every single day. But they still need batteries, in high quantities, for
which the current method of production isn't exactly ecological. Plus they
need lots of metal/plastics. Not ecological. Then you still need roads and
those roads maintenance. Not ecological as well.

While I love EV for their low pollution and low noise, I still think we should
probably focus on not using cars in the first place unless there really isn't
any other choice.

~~~
woodandsteel
Last year about 70 million automobiles were produced, and there are something
like a billion of them in the world. They must be replaced with EV's as soon
as possible. It would be great to get people off of cars, but that would take
decades, and EV's are here already. Also for many applications like trucks you
have to have individual vehicles, and they need to be EV's rather than ICE's.
Any damage to the environment from EV's is outweighed at least 10 times over
by the damage that ICE's do.

------
Faaak
I live in a small european city, and thus we bought a second hand "Renault
Twizy" with my SO.

It's a small car: 2 seater, 80km of range, and a top speed of 110 km/hour
(when modded) on the highway.

People always think it's a stupid choice: "But it's slow; but you can't go far
with it".

The reality is that it's perfect for us: there's no maintenance (apart from
the wheels, as the regen is top notch) and it fits everywhere. We rarely do
more than 80km round-trip anyways. And when we do (maybe twice a year), then
we rent a car for ~80CHF. The charge is quick (3hours), and cheap (1CHF for
6kWh).

I love it

~~~
wil421
A lot of people would not buy an electric car if it meant they would have to
rent a car to do long trips. Why would I pay for a car and then have to rent
another car?

My wife and I need a car that can travel 6 hours (350+ miles\550km) 3-5 times
a year. There is a super charger out of the way where my wife’s sister goes to
college. It would make a 20-30 bearable so we can make the journey with some
charge leftover. One of our vacation spots has a destination charger at an
Embassy Suites nearby. Its likely too busy on holidays to use.

Tesla Model 3 is the only one that fits our needs and budget. I’m very carious
about a Tesla and we might end up with a Q5 instead.

~~~
WorldMaker
> Why would I pay for a car and then have to rent another car?

I had a miser of an uncle that did lots of long road trips, but always rented
cars for them, once impressionably do a back of an envelope costs breakdown of
putting long road trip mileage on a personal vehicle versus per-trip rentals.
Even assuming both cars got equivalent mileage (my uncle was doing math with
comparable ICE sedans two decades ago or so), the maintenance subsidy of
dipping into a rental fleet was much cheaper than the long term maintenance
cost on a personal vehicle.

Even if you think my uncle's math was off one way or the other, I feel like it
should be pointed out that "rent a car for long trips" isn't a new attitude
unique to electric vehicle owners, and people have advocated it for a long
time.

Similarly, my current employer and at least one of my past employers highly
discourages using personal vehicles for long work trips, and beyond just the
obvious liability issues, such employers have made sure to point out very
similar logic to my uncle's that the increased miles on your vehicle is rarely
worth the long term maintenance costs when rental companies have cheaper
maintenance costs, because they scale maintenance across a fleet rather than a
single vehicle charged "retail" costs.

~~~
godshatter
I routinely take day trips on the weekends that are in the 150 to 250 mile
round-trip range, often two in a weekend. Doing that routinely in most
electric cars I've seen wouldn't be feasible. Trying to rent a car for these
trips would be a headache as well, and expensive. I think I've had one weekend
in the last two months where I haven't made at least one of these trips. Until
electric cars can make these kinds of trips commonplace, I won't be getting
one.

I don't live in a city, I live in the country where everything is far away
from everything else.

~~~
WorldMaker
Congratulations on being in the very long tail of car users.

For what little it is worth presuming you are exploring more than just
excuses: Tesla Model 3 can do 325 miles on a single charge. Even assuming
there is not a single way to charge on that day trip, it is do-able with
current technology, and maybe even two of them if they are both closer to the
150 side of your range possibility. Tesla superchargers add more
possibilities, but so can even just any old outdoor outlet at a destination or
interesting stop along the way.

~~~
godshatter
Maybe I am in the long tail of car users, but so is everyone else where I
live. Driving longer distances is the norm here.

EVs are getting closer and I've been waiting for them to get to where I can
use them. I only have one vehicle, and don't want to buy another one just to
drive around town. But getting stuck somewhere in the middle of the forest
because I misjudged the range is not something I want to have happen.

~~~
WorldMaker
That's largely what I meant by "long tail". You clearly aren't an outlier,
there are lots of folks in the long tail as is the nature of most long tail
distributions. I may have been a bit flippant because there _are_ lots of
people in the long tail and almost every thread very easily devolves into
(obviously valid and personally meaningful) anecdotal discussions of lives out
in the long tail. I certainly sympathize, I learned to drive while living in a
rural American house that was 30-70 miles from practically anywhere at all.

But the article here makes a good point that to some extent no other
transportation system in history has been so subservient to the long tail, and
no other transportation transition so completely weighed down in every
discussion with anecdata from heavy users and/or nostalgic fondness for high-
sigma deviations from personal mean trips.

So my apologies for being curt in my previous reply, as I didn't perceive your
argument from anecdote a useful addition to the discussion. Which isn't to say
that I don't understand your point, but that it's one of many that comes out
of the woodwork all the time in these discussions (you aren't an outlier, you
are one of many in the long tail).

My real point was, "What are you planning to do about it?" You have related
your status quo. You have provided enough evidence that changing that status
quo is a step change that will require good consideration and possibly plenty
of effort. That status quo is your "normal", certainly, but it's also not the
"way it has always been" that it feels to be. What would someone's ancestors
in that region have done before the invention of the car? Before gas stations
were dependable/reliable infrastructure in that region? That wasn't as long
ago as it seems (especially when cultural long term memory elides "short term
problems" like the 70s oil crisis; the current "reliability" of ICE vehicles
is a fascinating blip in history).

Are you bringing up your dependency on ICE vehicles to lament a status quo you
don't think you have the power to change (in which case, why bring it up at
all?) or to figure out what that step transition might entail in personal
trade-offs versus your current dependencies?

(It's not entirely unfair to compare modern America's dependency/addiction to
ICE vehicles versus it's long and many, recurring dependency/addiction cycles
to nicotine smoking. So far you have told us, you only own one vehicle and
don't believe you can go "cold turkey" on gas. Do you really feel that you
need to quit or are you happy with your addiction? Or can you find middle
ground that isn't just "cold turkey"?)

Apologies for such a lengthy digression into what may feel to you to perhaps
be rhetorical questions. My curiosity here is genuine now that I'm over the
initial anger that you immediately went to argument by anecdote, and my
suggestion was very genuine in the immediately previous post that there are
ways to "get better" if you came into the discussion in good faith looking for
solutions _today_ rather than just complaining about some status quo you don't
think you can change.

~~~
WorldMaker
If you will excuse answering an anecdote with another anecdote: I had a really
cool conversation once with someone that does roadside assistance in rural
Idaho/Montana. They were telling me about a guy that had them on speed dial
because he loved his Tesla and his favorite drive to visit friends and family
he drove two or three times a year obviously didn't have enough superchargers
along the way. This guy decided it was cheaper to pay for a tow at the end of
the range of his car to the next nearest charge spot than to reroute. He was
doing it often enough that he would often call ahead by a week or two and the
tow truck would just be there waiting in his usual spot. He was doing it often
enough that the roadside assistance folks were even looking into ways to do
some sort of mobile charging for the guy as just another assistance service
they could provide not just to that particular Tesla owner but maybe even for
other future users, as that would presumably be a growing mini-industry in
rural Idaho/Montana.

There are stories if you look for them of the same sorts of "early adopters"
needing tows between gas stations in those same exact areas. It isn't a "new"
phenomenon with electric cars, and there are all sorts of industry solutions
if we work together to solve such things.

------
p_roz
The point about the range of most cars meeting maximal needs reminds me of
when some people buy a vacation home vs renting.

People are willing to pay a premium to know for certain that something is
available for them to use on a whim, even if they would never do so.

There’s something about the increased flexibility and redundancy afforded by
long range capability.

~~~
m463
But people make huge strategic mistakes in their life because of "might".
Basically it's hoarding behavior.

I might need this kayak, so it'll take up space in my life as I move it from
apartment to condo to home for the next 20 years. Storage units are full of
these mistakes.

I think some EV manufacturers (Fiat?) tried to alleviate this by offering
rental cars for a certain number of days per year to people who bought their
cars.

(that said after driving an electric car renting a gas car seems sort of like
copping out - silly strategy)

~~~
ggm
_that said after driving an electric car renting a gas car seems sort of like
copping out - silly strategy)_

If you meant "they should rent high range bigger battery stack cars" I agree.
The heinous cost of owning huge kWh battery for occasional use is silly. But
fits MAKE ice cars so a cheap coverage for range is rental of an ice for the
agency doing this model.

~~~
m463
> The heinous cost of owning huge kWh battery for occasional use is silly

I thought like this in the beginning, and there's a fallacy in there.

Think not about huge kwh battery, think of (range of a battery in miles) *
(battery cycles)

That gives you the projected car mileage.

First generation evs from other manufacturers with ~20kwh batteries will have
to replace their battery in just a few years. They might cycle their battery
once a day while a tesla might be once a week or more. Many many leafs got new
batteries after their range decreased significantly 50% within 5 years.

------
mikestew
From just the headline, I thought to myself, "aww, isn't that cute, someone
got a new electric car. Let's read the insights they gathered that us old-
timer EV owners already know."

I've owned a Leaf for eight years, and it was worth a read. The first half, if
you already own an EV, is blah, blah, blah. But there were some good insights
in the second half, including that you might not _need_ a Level 2 charger in
your garage, a (US 120V) Level 1 might do. I will say that one might be
capable of installing a 240V outlet oneself and save $2000.

But most insightful were the observations of how the whole system is "rigged"
(for lack of a better word) for ICEs. A lot of the poo-pooing of EVs would go
away if we didn't build a system that assumes one will plop their ass in a
emissions-spewing two-ton wheelchair to go get a quart of milk.

~~~
alasdair_
>I will say that one might be capable of installing a 240V outlet oneself and
save $2000.

It took us fifteen minutes (excluding the run to home depot for the socket,
breaker, wire and a steel pipe) to run a new 240v socket from our electrical
panel in the garage to a few feet away from it. I can't imagine ever spending
$2000 on the installation of a single 240V socket right next to the panel.

~~~
mikestew
_I can 't imagine ever spending $2000 on the installation of a single 240V
socket right next to the panel_

You can’t? Here, I’ll throw you a softball: service panel upgrade because your
6Kw charger is way more than your 1960s house can handle.

Most common case, of course, is run a piece of conduit from panel, some wiring
and a plug, sorted in 30 minutes. But not everyone.

------
Mikeb85
Long range is a must for me. I live downtown so don't need to commute, but
drive out to the mountains at least a dozen times per year. Long-range driving
is probably 2/3 of my total KMs, most of it in places with no EV
infrastructure. Hell, I've had range anxiety before with an ICE vehicle
(topping up at the 'last' gas station even if I'm 3/4 full).

I really wish hydrogen-electric or EVs with an on-board generator caught on.
Having a city-only car is a waste of time when you don't commute, or if you
commute with public transit (which I did when living in the suburbs anyway).

~~~
kardos
Sounds like you could dispense with owning a car and rent/carshare for those
dozen trips per year.

~~~
Mikeb85
Maybe, but it's paid off and my current costs are ~3k/year. A rental wouldn't
be any cheaper and would be far, far less convenient.

------
jaclaz
The Twizy is vey nice, but it is not an electric car (it is of course, but not
one would think of that being an electric car).

[https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-
vehicles/twizy/dimens...](https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-
vehicles/twizy/dimensions.html)

It is more like a bike with 4 wheels, or if you prefer it is _as much_ a car
_as_ the Isetta was a car:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta)

While it does surely fulfill the needs of someone living in a small EU city
(and that needs not to commute for work) it is not IMHO really comparable to a
car.

BTW, I guess it depends on the country, here in Italy you surely cannot get on
highways with it (as much as you cannot get on them with an Isetta or with an
original FIAT 500), but the issue - at least in theory - is that a number of
"main" motorways have the same highway limits AND that a number of city by-
passes are categorized as "urban highway": Italian but understandable via
Google translate:

[https://twizyblog.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/limiti-di-
circola...](https://twizyblog.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/limiti-di-circolazione-
con-twizy/)

~~~
ZeroGravitas
An electric car homage to the Isetta:

[https://microlino-car.com/en/microlino](https://microlino-
car.com/en/microlino)

Notably states "this is not a car" about half way down.

~~~
jaclaz
Nice and (unlike the Twizy in its default configuration) it doesn't rain
inside it.

And additionally it says "THE IDEAL MIX BETWEEN MOTORBIKE AND CAR."

From the FAQ's:

What number plate do I need for my Microlino?

The Microlino is an L7e vehicle and therefore requires the same format as a
motorcycle.

Though it seems "borderline" with weight, I seem to remember that - unless
there is some new norm/exception for electric vehicles - the limit is 450 Kg
(which is what the Twizy weights):

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Twizy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Twizy)

The Microlino is seemingly produced by Tazzari in Italy (they make other
smallish electric vehicles):

[https://www.tazzari-zero.com/gamma-citycar-elettriche/](https://www.tazzari-
zero.com/gamma-citycar-elettriche/)

------
ojosilva
> Would I recommend buying an electric car? This is a bit like asking if
> someone should buy a computer. The answer is, “Probably – but what do you
> need it for?”

I'd say it's more like recommending to buy stock in something you're already
invested in. "Hey, the stock is going up, but it will go much higher if you
(and your friends) buy it too!"

The more people buy/use EV the better the infrastructure around us, the better
the market, prices and models to choose from. And better for the environment.
Besides, trust me, driving an EV feels like "the future", if you're into that
kind of thing.

My wife and I have invested in a PHEV vehicle, a Kia Niro (55km e-range, plus
a ~40L gas tank), for the next 5 years (a lease) and we put a charger in our
front door. We live in a townhouse with no garage but we park it on the street
in front. She drives it everyday 45km to-from work and it works great, 98% of
the time all-electric except for the long range roadtrips where the gas kicks
in. Still, the Niro is a quite efficient hybrid when the battery runs out. We
are saving about 1500€/year on gas compared to her previous tiny compact car.

------
gok
I find it very similar to the experience I had with a digital camera around
1998 or so. It was often less convenient than film; you couldn't just buy more
film at every corner store. The photo->computer download process was honestly
a bit of a pain, as was buying enough storage space. Many people in those days
wanted prints, which was much less convenient. But it was pretty clear that it
was the future after a few months of living with it. Peak film was around
2001; I suspect peak ICE will be 2025 or so.

(There's a further analogy to be made here with smartphones and autonomous
ride sharing EVs)

------
viburnum
I got halfway through and thought, “good lord, cars are kind of a dumb idea
when you think about it,” so thumbs up to the author. Cars mostly solve the
problems created by everyone else having cars.

~~~
Gibbon1
I read an article on the ill effects of cars dated from 1967. I thought it
would be very dated but it was spot on. A car is great when you're one of the
few that has them. They suck when everyone does. But then not having a car
sucks worse.

------
11thEarlOfMar
Lost me at "Most people do not need a 270 range car."

Most people where? We're in the US. Weekends frequently include short road
trips, up to 150 miles each way. I've put 30,000 miles on my M3, with 325 mile
range, usually gets me there and back without charging. And even for daily
commuting, once in a while I forget to plug it in when I get home. The range
means 'no penalty' as I can get there and back 2x on one full charge.

Anyway, for those who love to drive and like to roam on weekends, a 135 mile
range would kind of suck.

~~~
edent
Have some citations which I randomly found -
[https://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/new-study-reveals-much-
moto...](https://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/new-study-reveals-much-motorists-
drive/) and
[http://www.solarjourneyusa.com/EVdistanceAnalysis7.php](http://www.solarjourneyusa.com/EVdistanceAnalysis7.php)

My question to you is - how often do you drive for three hours without
stopping? Either for going to the toilet, or just to stretch your leg. I
occasionally drive > 200 miles in the UK. Literally every motorway service
station here has a rapid charger (50kW+) which will fill your battery in 30
minutes.

~~~
11thEarlOfMar
You are correct that I seldom drive 3 hours without stopping.

However, as a real example, I'll drive from San Jose to Healdsburg on a day
trip. That is 114 miles each way and I can make the round trip without
charging at all. I pay 12 cents/KWh at home. 26 cents at a super charger. With
325 mile range, I get the savings and no anxiety about finding a charger and
then finding something to do for 30 minutes. I could likely optimize it by
trying to find a charger near an eatery or place of interest, but it's nice to
not have that additional thought and research process. Just determine it's
within easy round trip range and forget about it.

------
dawnerd
I just got an e-Golf on a really good deal (thanks to slickdeals pointing out
you can get 10k off the price). At first was worried, but that's all gone
away. I've gone this whole week without even charging it and the included 120v
charger over the weekend works just fine for my use case.

I've only used a public charger once and that was the first day owning it
since the charger at the dealer wasn't working right.

------
rad_gruchalski
„But I would say that our family makes a 200+ mile trip, oh, about 6-8 times a
year, 400 miles round trip. So that’s, at most, 3,200 miles of long-distance
driving a year.” Wow, I took a leasing car 3 months ago, done 9600km since.
Living in a not so rural area outside of Aachen, Germany.

------
intopieces
The most impactful way municipalities could encourage EV adoption would be to
subsidize the installation of chargers at work. For most people - especially
if they have an ICE at home for the weekend - this would eliminate the need
for costly home installation and charger hunting

~~~
Retra
How much does a home installation cost?

~~~
intopieces
Around $2600 plus the cost of electricity. Not viable for renters or apartment
dwellers, and not a good candidate for subsidy since it would be used by 1-2
cars at most.

~~~
jm4
How is it that much and where is it that much? I paid a fraction of that.

~~~
intopieces
Austin, TX apparently. FTA: “Level Two is a 240 volt socket, which are the
weirdo-looking ones you see for your washer or dryer or some kinds of ovens.
This is a much faster connection, adding 20-25 miles per hour, but most
garages don’t have them, so you need to get an electrician to install them
(that’s $2,000 right there) and then you need to buy the charger itself
(usually about $600, though there are often rebates for this sort of thing).”

------
Lendal
For an electrician to install an outlet in your garage is TWO THOUSAND
DOLLARS?! If you paid that, you got mega ripped off. That's an order of
magnitude greater than it should cost.

~~~
GlenTheMachine
No. At least not in my case. The electrician had to install an extra breaker
in an auxiliary box in the basement, then run 30 feet of conduit to get the
240v line out of the house. The price of having a charger installed varies
tremendously depending on where it needs to go and where your house’s breaker
box is located relative to that.

~~~
derekp7
You know, conduit is less than $3.50 for a 10 ft section last I bought some.
Fittings are another dollar or so each, and I can't see 30 ft of copper wire
costing 2 grand. So you are paying mostly for the electrification's time. If
there is a lot more work involved, and if I lived in an area where I wasn't
allowed to do my own electrical work, I'd at least dig the trench myself and
take care of pounding a whole through the foundation wall if needed.

~~~
GlenTheMachine
There’s no question I was paying for his time. I’ll do my own electrical,
mostly, but not 240. That stuff will kill you.

~~~
icebraining
That's a bit paranoid; plenty of Europeans with our 220V lines do our own
electrical, and there are very few domestic deaths by electrocution.

~~~
ben_bai
Nitpicking: 230V +-10%, so on a good day it can be as high as 253V.

But yes most people will work on it for their own, but shy away from 400V
outlets.

~~~
Symbiote
I think that's just familiarity.

I've used 400V outlets, as they're the standard outlet in a European
datacentre (for the UPS or PDU). Most people don't use them, and can be a bit
uncomfortable even touching them.

I can understand Americans also being fairly unfamiliar with a 240V outlet,
taking more care with it, and preferring to employ a professional to install
one.

~~~
ben_bai
It's just 3 phases with 230V each, which gives you 400V across individual
phases. Same safety rules apply as on standard outlets, so yes, it really is
just familiarity. Also lots of European households do have 400V outlets (we
have 2 in our house, basement and garage). I even installed one temporarily in
my living room for construction/remodeling and working with the required thick
wires they are unconfortable to work with.

------
woodandsteel
As far as chargers go, new ones are being added all the time, and in 5 years
max you will find them everywhere, including a lot of apartment building
parking lots.

~~~
Gibbon1
I think with apartments, there will be a tipping point where landlords will
have to install them in order to keep their apartments competitive.

