
Inside the British Army's secret information warfare machine - DyslexicAtheist
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/inside-the-77th-brigade-britains-information-warfare-military
======
MichaelMoser123
Now how is this different from a Russian or Chinese troll factory? All these
puppeteers playing political technologists, bother. Are they really thinking
this stuff is changing hearts and minds over to the right cause?

~~~
Veen
From my perspective, as a British person, the difference is that this is being
done by British people to support British interests. As a person who lives in
Britain, and by extension the west, and who supports the general values on
which my society is based, I'm not interested in relativist comparisons. If
the information war must be fought, I'd like us to win it.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
As another British person I'm unconvinced that "British interests" include the
interests of most British voters.

Historically we've seen the British state infiltrate and influence
organisations that it considers hostile to it.

[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-
interactive/2018/oct/...](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-
interactive/2018/oct/15/uk-political-groups-spied-on-undercover-police-list)

What stands out is the trivial nature of most of these groups, which surely
fall squarely within a general democratic right to assemble and protest.

What also stands out is that right-wing groups don't seem to have had anything
like the same level of oversight.

So if - hypothetically - the military and/or GCHQ ran a campaign to influence
a British election, or a public referendum, would that align with "British
interests" or not?

This isn't a hypothetical. It's obvious from the comment sites of most
newspapers and also from posts on FB interest groups that industrial-level
opinion-shaping is being attempted.

If it's originating from hostile foreign powers, the UK's cyber response seems
inexplicably ineffectual. If it's originating from closer to the home, that's
clearly a non-trivial problem for our "general values."

~~~
Veen
Some of those are appalling, especially spying on the trade unions and having
workers blackballed. But most of them are loonies of the left or right, animal
rights extremists, or have connections to Irish terror orgainzations. Exactly
the people the police should be infiltrating.

------
jonnydubowsky
With the evidence pointing to vast numbers of state agencies around the world
engaging in this type of information warfare, do you think it better that
democratic nations do nothing in response?

What would be an alternative or more effective method of defending against the
Russian and Chinese troll farms?

I'm not endorsing these tactics, and wonder if we are already in a situation
where there is a threat of mutually assured destruction? Doing nothing in
response seems to lead to even worse outcomes then the admittedly unsavory
alternative.

~~~
kaffeemitsahne
> _What would be an alternative or more effective method of defending against
> the Russian and Chinese troll farms?_

Not believing everything you read on the internet.

~~~
jnurmine
Yes, indeed. It might also help to understand how the operation works.

The method seems to be, based on my understanding of analyses in the Finnish
media about how the "troll factory of Saint Petersburg" operates: 1. amplify
suitable existing events/movements with fake accounts spreading supporting
posts, 2. use advertisements or rumors to create suitable new openings for 1,
then do 1.

The main purpose is to amplify messages that are aligned with the political
aspirations of the Russian Federation.

Further legitimacy is obtained when a "serious news site" (usually other
Russia controlled media like RT) publishes something about the subject. The
idea becomes something more legit and more plausible, even though it might
have begun as an intentionally fabricated lie.

The rest is taken care of by gullible people who absorb the message without
much thinking and then spread it further, especially when the message fits
their image of or desired state of the world.

So basically the Russian troll factory is an astroturfing organization, but
instead of pimping a product, they pimp emotionally loaded social media
sentiments that support political goals.

~~~
nyolfen
that’s just media

~~~
hnmonkey
'just media'?

Media is potentially the most valuable conduit for information for the human
race currently. Newspapers, social media, news organizations, tv, apps,
advertisements, and a million others. There isn't a 'just' related to media
because it's so powerful and pervasive. It's a pipeline into 7 billion
people's brains.

------
KineticLensman
They are hardly 'secret' \- they have their own web site! [0]

[0] [https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/formations-divisions-
brig...](https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/formations-divisions-
brigades/force-troops-command/77-brigade/)

~~~
blinky1456
Yeah, but they are no longer on twitter...Well, that we know of.

------
dragonsky
I think the scary thing about nation states trying to covertly influence each
other is that many of these states are supposed to be allies, or at least
friendly. They certainly are not at war.

I naively believed the Cold War was over, obviously it has only changed its
methods, to where influence over a countries people is the weapon and it's
being used widely.

~~~
chrisseaton
Why do you say ‘nation states’? The UK is the classic example of something
which is _not_ a nation state.

~~~
jacquesm
Give it a few years and the UK will no longer exist. The largest remainder
will most likely be called England and the rest will have broken away.

~~~
Veen
That's possible, but I don't think it's likely. Scotland voted to stay in the
UK when given the choice. That choice is not likely to be given again in the
near future. Wales wouldn't flourish on its own. Northern Ireland, maybe, but
also unlikely -- plenty of Unionists will fight to the death to remain part of
the UK.

~~~
jacquesm
> Scotland voted to stay in the UK when given the choice.

That was before the 'leave' vote.

~~~
guiriduro
< That was before the 'leave' vote.

And more specifically, it meant that the decision was a Scotland in (pre-EU
leave vote) the UK an EU member state, whereas a then vote to leave the Union
of the UK would also have meant leaving the EU (and having to apply to rejoin,
without any guarantees.) No wonder it was more attractive.

What then happened was that the UK (primarily, England) voted to "Brexit"
leave the EU - so the very electoral calculation on which a "remain in the
United Kingdom and EU" scottish vote was made, was turned on its head. If the
UK does finally exit the EU, the Scots can very well say they were cheated and
demand another vote.

~~~
Veen
Scottish Nationalists can demand another vote, but they won't get it as long
as the Tories are in power. In as much as you can take Corbyn at his word, he
is not in favour either, and nor are many in the Labour party. It might happen
if the Scottish Parliament votes for it, but it's still not a sure thing to
pass. Besides which, it isn't wise: Scotland can't pay its way and depends on
EU and British (English) money. Out of the EU, Scotland would be in a worse
economic position if it leaves the UK, and there's no guarantee that it would
be allowed to join the EU in the near future: many EU members with a veto
aren't keen to encourage separatist movements.

------
fredley
Interesting that this comes out at the same time that a Russian journalist
triggers a security alert filming outside their base of operations:

[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46420486](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46420486)

~~~
orbital-decay
OP article came out a couple weeks before that happened. It's likely they
followed a Wired article to dig up some dirt, or to add 2 and 2 and get 999.

------
abdulhaq
Given that it is very likely that the UK military seriously considered a coup
in the seventies
([https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/mar/15/commen...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/mar/15/comment.labour1))
it seems foolish to place the job of political story placement and
disinformation with them.

