

Ask HN: A place to sleep, a laptop, no résumé and a hungry man. - inDesperateZone

I've found myself in this situation more often than not. Due to my own fault of course. But I always ended up relying on others until I caved in, doing jobs that provided me with more money than I need but with no enjoyment and the feeling of unfulfillment, dropping them like I had a choice even if I didn't.<p>I can program, it's what I can do best, it's what's keeping me happy. But without a college degree, experience or a stack of projects in my pocket no one is going to believe me.<p>With all the app hype one could lose himself dreaming about all the money that's in the business.<p>But what real chances are there? What small jobs can one do with the ability to write code but the inability to prove oneself just to keep from starving?<p>Guitarists can busk, drifters could mow the lawn, artists can do caricartures. What can a lone man with a laptop under his arm do?
======
SeanNieuwoudt
Like you, I was once in the same position. Extremely poor, I literally hand
drew business cards and cut them out of cardboard and walked around the city
to hand-deliver them. This helped as someone eventually gave me a chance, but
I'm sure it's because he felt sorry for me. I had no experience and learnt how
to code from making free photo copies of the pages in the visual basic 6 book
at the local public library.

Where I'm from (South Africa), internet was expensive and not accessible to
all at the time.

Some advice for your situation:

\- You are at the bottom, your only way from there is up - this is something
to be excited about.

\- Fake it until you make it. When meeting potential clients, talk the talk
and do the walk later.

\- You'd be surprised at how many SME's need IT services and don't know it yet
:) You can simply walk in the door and have a chat to them.

\- Put your ego away and always be aware that in order to eat, you need to
sell. Selling is actually pretty simple if have a bit of confidence.

\- Look after your laptop with your life, it's your key to getting out of your
situation.

\- If you can write code, it most likely means that you can solve problems
logically - this doesn't only apply to coding, figure out where you can use
that and make a bit of money.

\- Don't be afraid of charging for your time. Poverty is also a mindset, as
soon as you realize that, you are one step closer to getting past it.

\- Just ask for help. You are not alone and most people will be sympathetic
when they are asked.

\- You don't need to prove yourself to anyone in order to survive, simply do
what you do best and the rest will follow.

Goodluck! S

------
DanBC
> _What can a lone man with a laptop under his arm do?_

Create an online presence.

Contribute under that name.

Never ever flame or troll under that name. Appear calm and sensible and
rational and kind and polite and exciting and dynamic.

There's a bunch of things you could do: Many open source projects need help.
(Especially with documentation.)

Many people want some small app to help them do something, but they have no
idea how much that would cost, and they have no programming skill. (I have a
million ideas. "X-Face for HN profiles" is just one.)

In theory, you do jobs you don't enjoy to give you money to do things that you
do enjoy; or you do a job you love which leaves you poor. (If you're really
lucky you get great money and a great job.) Doing a lousy job shouldn't stop
you from being able to code in your spare time.

> _With all the app hype one could lose himself dreaming about all the money
> that's in the business._

This is, I'm sure you know, a distraction. You're not doing it for the huge
1-in-a-million chance of getting rich. You're doing it to solve a problem, or
to create something awesome.

Good Luck!

------
marquis
You know what I'd like to do? Offer free work experience more. I took another
young guy on today, to mentor him through a project that we need done but not
so badly it was worth us prioritizing it in our schedule. We're not paying
him, but he's getting our time for free, and a good resume piece and reference
from us if he steps up to the challenge that I think he can meet. Maybe more
of us need to be doing this in our own businesses, bring back apprenticeships.
If this guy does well, we'll either hire him if we can, or recommend him. I'll
have a friend for life I can call on for advice in whatever speciality he
chooses to go on with from here (he looks set to be a sysadmin whiz if he
keeps at it). If he fails, I wasted nothing. I've done this before and I'll
keep doing it as time permits.

He got in touch with us directly, somehow he'd found dev labs near him and we
agreed to his request for experience. No degree or experience but a resume
full of the right things you want to see from a self-learner (online Stanford
classes etc) and he backed it up when we interviewed him.

Maybe try that, or ask here on HN for someone to mentor you through developing
a real-world project that they need, and don't have the budget or time for.
All you can lose is your time, and if things work out maybe some great new
friends and a chance at a real opportunity.

~~~
parfe
I wouldn't go around bragging about breaking employment law. I don't
understand how this person can be doing useful work that isn't worth $8/hour
to you?

[http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?pag...](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?pagewanted=all)

edit:

The U.S. Department of Labor’s Wage and Hour Division (WHD) has developed the
six factors below to evaluate whether a worker is a trainee or an employee for
purposes of the FLSA:
[http://wdr.doleta.gov/directives/attach/TEGL/TEGL12-09acc.pd...](http://wdr.doleta.gov/directives/attach/TEGL/TEGL12-09acc.pdf)

1\. The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities
of the employer, is similar to what would be given in a vocational school or
academic educational instruction;

2\. The training is for the benefit of the trainees;

3\. The trainees do not displace regular employees, but work under their close
observation;

4\. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage
from the activities of the trainees, and on occasion the employer’s operations
may actually be impeded;

5\. The trainees are not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of
the training period; and

6\. The employer and the trainees understand that the trainees are not
entitled to wages for the time spent in training.

~~~
wpietri
Yeah, in California that's definitely illegal.

Which is a shame, because I've seen some people benefit enormously from
similar intership-ish things. They got in the door of cash-poor companies,
were ambitious enough to take on hard things, and eventually got hired at a
level way above what they could have achieved through the normal process.

Of course, I've also read about no-pay internships that were total scams,
companies just using and abusing the naive so they could get out of paying
minimum wage. So I'm glad this stuff is illegal, but I regret that the cheap
assholes have ruined it for everyone.

------
SandersAK
EDIT: "our" startup

We've always got room at the lodge: <http://gdkr.ma/LodgingSociety>

Seriously, we're always welcoming hackers to come hang with us in NY.

We put you up, give you plenty of your own time to work on what you want, and
ask for a part time contribution to _our_ startup.

Hit me up if that interests you,

Adrian

~~~
inDesperateZone
Sadly I'm not American. I forgot to add my location, I didn't think it would
be important as I doubt many of HN's readers are German, which I am.

If I had the money to fly to NY, gee, that sounds both awesome and
frightening. I envy people who can just take the already filled suitcase out
of their closet and end up in a distant place without fear or confusion about
what to do next.

~~~
SandersAK
no worries, just let us know when you're ever state side. I used to live in
Paris, France so I know how scary the idea of relocating to a new place is.

Good luck man, I really wish you all the best!

------
JohnnyFlash
When I started I could just about make a website but hell, it was what I
wanted to do.

I did 2 things. Firstly I went on the freelancer job boards and picked up some
of the worst jobs going with the most hard to please clients. I think my
average wage was like $3/hr for the first handful of projects. However.. soon
enough I starting getting 10 star ratings which opened up better jobs. Also I
started to get a portfolio from these jobs which gave me credibility. It was a
miserable time but I wouldn't have to got to where I have any other way.

The second thing I did was found a framework which was semi-popular and just
camped the forum. I learned everything I could about it. I read every thread.
I only answered questions. If I had a question I would join IRC under an
alias. I didn't want to look nooby.

I would take notes on frequent questions. I was soon known as someone who
always had the right answer. I would then usually be the first to respond on
the job board for the framework. I would link to my forum profile and
reputation. Some of those jobs paid really well and there was very little
competition to get them.

I currently make 36k a year from a job I picked up on the forum. The post for
the job was titled 'Developer Required'. The message was 'Urgent, please PM
name, portfolio and email address'. Turned out well.

Ultimately though to succeed you need to stick with what you are doing. You
may find the job terrible but if it leads to a great portfolio piece at the
end then you should be doing it. Its rarely about where you are now, its about
where what you are currently doing will lead you.

------
Sword_Monkey
Make a website offering a free service that a moderate amount of people would
use/could be convinced to use. Monetise via ads, and bam passively fund
yourself for a few months whilst the site rises and fades.

Amount of income depends on site design (probably quite good), type of subject
site tackles (how much scope there is for a visitor checking the site to see
related ads that they would then go on to click).

For instance a week or so ago one guy came along with a passive site that gave
away simple, free gift certificate templates. He was getting a few hundred
dollars every week. Not enough to live on, easily enough to just feed him,
could be replicated for more income.

This is your busking. Dirty dirty ad revenue from sites that do stuff the
common man would take hours doing themselves.

~~~
rman666
Pointers to good articles on generating _real_ ad revenue would be useful.

------
yummyfajitas
_But without a college degree, experience or a stack of projects in my pocket
no one is going to believe me._

Step 1: figure out which of this is easiest to change. Hint: it's "stack of
projects".

Step 2: change it.

Yay, github.

~~~
viscanti
You need to be building things to learn anyway, so github fits that perfectly.
There's such a low barrier to entry with getting started and putting up a
project or two, and then adding more as time goes on. The key is getting the
first project up there, and realizing that it doesn't need to be 'perfect'.
The other big advantage of having a github is that it shows you're familiar
with version control.

Having a github account with several projects on it is a big positive signal.
There will be companies who feel that you need a degree, but that's a small
portion of the job market. Committing to build and grow a github is probably
the single best thing a developer without a degree can do.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_The other big advantage of having a github is that it shows you're familiar
with version control._

Also, put in a readme, that makes it easier for me to evaluate the project.
And put in tests, so I know you are familiar with those. In short, show me you
know what you are doing by actually doing it.

 _Committing to build and grow a github is probably the single best thing a
developer without a degree can do._

Or even a dev with a degree.

I've gotten a number of interviews based on my github and projects, without
even sending a resume. For all the interviewer knows, I never went to school.
And when I hire, I look at github first, maybe a resume if there isn't a
github. Or, equally likely, no github -> resume goes into the circular file.

~~~
viscanti
Adding the readme also shows some ability to document a project, which is
always helpful.

Test coverage is nice to have, but I don't know that it's a requirement up
front. I can't think of any circumstances where having test coverage will
hurt, so I'd agree that it should probably be there, even if you're not a
TDD/BDD zealot. It at least shows that you're familiar with testing and can do
it.

------
signalsignal
I'm an artist and didn't know I could draw caricatures to make money. I've
been getting by writing proprietary software for the Apple App store. People
download my artwork off my website all the time and use it for commercial
purposes even though it states "All Rights Reserved" on my website. I
regularly send out DMCA notices. People want it, but they are unwilling to pay
for it.

However in the App Store there is a distribution network that checks for
purchase before download and signs ipa files with DRM technology. I wish there
was something like that for artists (but their isn't and probably never will
be).

My advice is to learn ObjC and get the money up front for freelancing gigs
while registering as a sole-proprietorship with your local chamber of
commerce. Then pay Apple a registration fee for the App Store. It takes about
10 days to get their approval. Or learn another language. Go to Starbucks or
whatever coffee house is in the "nice and upscale" part of town and eavesdrop
on the business deals that are going down. Learn what people want and figure
out a full proof way to help them get what they want while getting paid for
your effort. Now. Be greedy. They will be. Trust me.

That's my advice. You're welcome to it. If you can't make money as a software
developer and you CAN ACTUALLY PROGRAM software, then I don't know what to say
except learn some confidence. Life isn't hard unless you make it.

------
stephengillie
You're in a rough spot in your life. You have my sympathies. Your situation
won't change overnight, but you can begin by finding a low-skill job that will
pay for your basic needs (food and shelter) while you use free internet in
libraries or from neighbors to put your code on github and other places.

If you enjoy coding, start creating projects. Then start completing projects.
Consider one of the million "fart" apps: the app itself is far from glamorous,
but the person who wrote it has gained experience in (1) writing an app, (2)
completing an app, (3) getting the app into an app market.

If you keep doing that, and have 5-20 apps on a market, even if none of them
are very popular, it looks a LOT like experience.

------
prtk
You can teach kids programming. If they learn to make small games their
parents might pay you some money.

And material you create while teaching kids can later be converted into book
form and published.

~~~
cies
I wrote KTurtle[1] to basically learn 'real' programming :)

I had only toyed around before that.

Anyway, I think prtk is right: there is a lot to be picked up in education.
And as always; make yourself cheap enough to build portfolio at first.

[1]: <http://edu.kde.org/kturtle>

------
gregdetre
If you're in London, drop me a line - greg at memrise dot com.

And even if you're not, take heart - some of the best people I know have been
in this situation at one time or another.

------
devs1010
Its hard for me to get a good feel for what your experience level is from your
post, but I'm guessing you've worked mainly as a freelancer thus far. I'm
someone who started off similarly to you, I don't have a degree, although I am
close to finishing a BA degree thats not in CS as I just had a bunch of units
from general ed courses. Basically, I just pushed my way in by starting off
working at a really small company that couldn't afford to be picky. The pay
was fairly lousy but after a few months I found a better opportunity to work
with a startup. Then after that, I had enough experience working full-time to
start working for a contracting company that did a full-time placement of me
at a mid-sized company. Once you get experience working full-time, it gets
easier to find the next job so you should really just focus on getting your
foot in the door. I've found that companies are often wary of people who just
want to freelance as they often want a longer commitment and someone who is
going to be more invested in their product / company. Also, there's no reason
not to work on your own project and put it on GitHub, its helped me get at
least one job, just from being able to talk about it in the interview, as the
interviewer found it interesting.

------
codesuela
I don't think most startups and medium sized require that you have a CS
degree. Find an environment that is appealing to you or create one. Some
options:

Apply to a couple startups even just as an intern to see whether that floats
your boat.

Find a good(!) co-founder and start a company. or If you feel that the
problems are deeper than just not wanting to work in a traditional environment
and you have a bad outlook on live seek advice of a therapist.

------
jat1
I am about to leave a well paying job to go live in my Campervan and travel
around Europe and Morocco. The more work I can do on the side while away means
the longer I can stay on the road.

I am quite interested in helping teach or working with voluntary organisations
if I can make enough money for Diesel and food.

It is both exciting and scary at the same time.

~~~
septnuits
This is exactly what I've started thinking about doing. I am working at a
great place but I'm getting tired of doing boring work for boring clients. I
really don't care about how much money I make at my current place because it
is making my hobby, my biggest interest and my talent - into something
different.. it is now in a new, ugly shape. It has gone from something I could
not resist doing, to something I don't even want to think about.

For me, it's draining more energy than it gives. Programming should be fun. I
hope your journey goes well. Hopefully I will be on the same track in a couple
of months. First I have to save enough cash to feel secure. Happy hunting.

~~~
jat1
Yeh I am currently in cash saving mode. I also have to pay for my girlfriend
who has no savings so it is quite hard. We are planning on leaving in July and
will start a blog about it soon.

I am just trying to kickstart my company (I am a contractor) into doing more
than just contract work and me and a friend are working on a few small
projects/ideas.

Really want to hit the road soon, but its the fear of effectively being
'homeless' and not being able to find such well paid work when/if we return.

Good luck with your plans too, our situation sounds very similar.

------
runjake
I've been in your shoes and don't have any advice that hasn't already been
said.

But, think of this as an exciting chapter of your life. You're at bottom, so
you can go anywhere from here without constraints or obligations.

This chapter happened for me when I was younger, and at the time it seemed
almost awful, but on reflection now, it was very freeing. I'm positive you'll
see it the same, when you get older.

If you lack commitments (wife, kids, etc), it's kind of nice to periodically
reboot (eg. destroy and rebuild) your life.

Do whatever you're passionate about. Seriously.

PS: Make your passion first, money second.

------
slav
There is a lot of good advice in previous comments.

I'm just wondering, how is that you say you can code and you cant find a job /
project to work on. I did my first project for money in PHP when I was 16 - no
degree, no experience and not much code to show - just few HelloWorld playpen
projects.

People rarely ask developers for a degree and even if they do, once you have
impressive code to show is worth much more.

So my advice would be maybe harsh but simple - stop complaining and get
working!

you can always use "drug dealer's" method - do the first project for free :)

~~~
U_U
> I did my first project for money in PHP when I was 16

Can I ask how you got those jobs and what you got paid?

------
aercolino
Sadly, one busks out of need more than passion. But it seems to me that hunger
is a metafore in your case. Otherwise you could exchange your laptop for a
guitar and some lessons.

To document your experience the best you can do is to fix bugs into any
popular open source project, like WordPress, Rails, ... If you know how to
program, it will be easy for you to enter those dev groups and be taken into
account.

~~~
inDesperateZone
I actually own a guitar. Playing for two years now. But its not worth much and
I'm not good enough to keep anyone listening. I think learning to code at a
reasonable level is much easier than learning to play guitar well enough to be
able to busk.

------
stonemetal
Assuming you are capable(and willing) of spinning a wrench spend a couple of
days somewhere with free wifi learn some CNC programming and find a machine
shop in need. The smaller the shop the less qualifications matter and the more
can you do the job matters. Smaller shops have a harder time hiring so they
are often willing to train people who show promise.

------
freshfey
Where are you located? What are your exact skills? I might be able to help you
out (email is in the profile).

------
corkill
This video is a TED talk on how to work for free with impressive people then
transition into paid work you love.

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5qUR3tpEdA&feature=playe...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5qUR3tpEdA&feature=player_embedded)

------
samlev
Open Source. Sure, you don't get paid for it directly, but it can get your
name noticed, and show people that you _can_ code.

Either contribute to an existing project, or start your own.

Think of it as code busking.

------
mhitza
> But without a college degree, experience or a stack of projects in my pocket
> no one is going to believe me.

Even with those, people won't believe you. That's why interviews exist, so you
can prove your knowledge.

------
Malcx
>>I can program Ok, what can you program? Which languages or platforms do you
know?

Irrespective of where you live I may be able to offload some paid work your
way, that would then be part of your portfolio.

------
theinfamousrj
I'm in the same position... We should build something together, solve some
problems, put them on github, learn from each other.

~~~
Evgeniuz
I'm also in this position. Although I have a degree in CS, our area have
almost no jobs, where I can work and grow as a programmer, and with remote
work, people tend to not trust anyone without experience, sadly.

------
pressurefree
make bluetooth candles and sell them. if you made your own pcb it would be so
cheap.

<https://sites.google.com/site/r3s2v1/projects/candles>

------
bmelton
You didn't say where you were located, but if you're in the Annapolis /
Baltimore area, shoot me an email. My info is in my profile.

I assume you have some sort of internet since you're posting this. If hosting
costs are an obstacle, shoot me an email and I can cut you off a piece of a
Linode or something.

As for 'proving you can code', get a free Github repository and start filling
it up. Find a project, any project, in any language, and build it. Projects
don't have to be amazingly complicated or fit a broad needs. One of my first
'open source' projects was a library that would reliably fetch a favicon from
a website.

No, it hasn't made me famous, and no, it hasn't made me rich, but it has
helped a few people based on the messages I've gotten through Github. I have
had offers from work based on it (not full time jobs, but implementation /
freelance stuff), and if anybody questions whether or not I can write a line
of code, I can point them at that.

After you write one library / module / program / app / whatever, write another
one. The idea being that you'll establish a 'body of work'.

We recently tried to recruit another HNer to fill in on some project work
recently and, when my project manager was asking how qualified he was, I just
pointed him to his github profile. Not only has he released a lot of code, but
he's worked on a lot of the libraries that we're using in our code as well.

Don't worry about whether or not the code you release is 'production ready',
or if it's too small, or if you think it's only of limited utility. My favicon
parser is under 100 lines of code. Backbone.js is only ~700 lines of code.
Code doesn't need to be huge to make an impact. Hell, code doesn't even have
to be GOOD to make an impact, but that's a different story.

