
More than half the Thiel Fellows plan on returning to school - sarahbuhr
http://techcrunch.com/2014/07/08/more-than-half-the-thiel-fellows-plan-on-returning-to-school/
======
nmrm
This matters because the Thiel Fellowship program has a political backdrop,
and is motivated by/supports the "you don't need college" message.

That message, should an average American (not a Thiel fellow) take it to
heart, is demonstrably and empirically not in their self interest. Period.

Thiel Fellows are some of the brightest of the bright; of course not attending
college won't hurt them in the long run. And accepting a prestigious
fellowship will certainly help, at the very least in the short run. So the
fellowship makes a lot of sense, and no one claims fellows were hurt just
because they return to academia.

However, the fact that 1/2 of recipients of a very prestigious award (and the
associated money/opportunity) decided it was in their best interest to return
to university is important. It's important because it cast a pretty serious
shadow on Thiel's view of college as unnecessary (or over-rated or not in most
people's interest... however you want to hedge his claim.)

So while Thiel fellows aren't hurt per se, anyone else listening to the "don't
go to college" advice can consider this a rude wake-up call.

So. That's why it matters.

BTW: recently talked with a HS student who got into Harvard (low income, so
full ride), but some startup guy was _pressuring_ him to not go to college and
instead take a dev job paying $40k. I consider these sort of people scum. I
don't know if they are assuaging their insecurities or what, but I don't know
how you can look a youth in the eye and tell them to get a day job making web
apps (for someone else) instead of going to Harvard for free for four years.
Especially when the free tuition alone costs more than the offered salary.
Scum.

~~~
DevX101
If you got into Harvard for a full ride and don't yet have a company with
significant traction and upside (see Microsoft or Facebook, the early years),
you'd be silly to not accept the offer and go to school.

I don't consider the CTO a scum for making a ridiculous offer, but I would
consider the student an idiot if he accepted. An 18 year old Harvard kid
should be smart enough to not make major errors like this.

When Bill Gates and Zuckerberg left Harvard, it was already clear that their
companies would be successful. At that point their opportunity cost of staying
in school was massive. Most of us will never have this high quality problem
however, so don't follow in their footsteps if you're not in a comparable
situation.

~~~
nmrm
> I don't consider the CTO a scum for making a ridiculous offer

It's the _pressure_ that bothered me.

The offer is also kind-of scummy even without pressure, though. High school
kids are still kids, even the really smart ones. Role models matter a lot.
Also, and this is pure conjecture, I imagine it's harder to walk away from the
cash when you're coming out a low-income background, even if it's the
completely rational self-interested thing to do.

~~~
jonah
I hope you were able to set him on the right path.

~~~
nmrm
I didn't have to.

------
mkbrody
As someone who was influenced by Peter Thiel to drop out of college and do a
startup with my room mate, I can say it was a mistake in hindsight. Even
though I was able to land on my feet (I'm now 25 and making 6 figures), I had
to go through a lot of extra hurdles, stress, and doubt to prove my worth to
the world and employers when starting out my career.

The odds were greatly against it working out favorably in my circumstances (I
went to a tier 3 school, didn't get my startup funded, etc) and I had to
possess serious hustle and grit to make it to where I am. I see people who
simply studied hard, followed a plan, and graduated from an Ivy or similar
college coasting by much easier - that's the path I would take if I could do
it over again.

Because Peter Thiel was a big influence on my decision 4-5 years ago to drop
out, I look back in hindsight on my experience and think he is wrong to
advocate a path he didn't take. He went to Stanford, then got a JD, worked at
a hedge fund (try getting that job as a college dropout), and then became a
monstrous success at PayPal & Founders Fund after building credibility &
success. To think he could have replicated his career path as a college
dropout is incredulous. The odds are 10x more against you, and many more doors
are closed than open (finance, grad school, etc).

If you want to be successful there is a very easy path if you're mature enough
to work hard during high school: goto the best school you can, study a
science, engineering, or finance major, and you will have >50% chance of
becoming rich enough to live comfortably and retire if you continue to work
hard and hustle after you graduate.

~~~
nostrademons
Are you sure that you wouldn't have had to face those hurdles even if you'd
gone to college? I went to Amherst (#1 liberal arts college in the country
when I matriculated). A number of my classmates are almost a decade older than
you and would _love_ to be making 6 figures.

I don't know a single Millenial who hasn't struggled with reality post-
graduation. (Actually, that's not quite true, I know a couple Googlers who got
in straight out of school. They're a minority, though.)

Personally, I think that the biggest advantage a person can have today is to
consider rejection Somebody Else's Problem. The people who can get rejected
over and over again and still bounce back to full energy immediately tend to
succeed no matter where or whether they went to college and no matter what
they try.

~~~
mkbrody
I'm sure I still would have had plenty of hurdles even with a degree, and I
don't mean to discount that starting a career is hard for anyone, but the
matter at stake here is whether it's optimal for smart, young people to go to
college or skip it/drop out.

My personal experience is full of rejection, stress, and closed doors (I still
can't go to grad school to get a higher paying job such as an MBA or Law
Degree in my 30's, and finishing my bachelors has a huge opportunity cost).

Compare that to liberal arts students at Ivy League colleges who a few years
ago were getting handed $100 bills to attend a 1 hour on-campus recruitment
session with the hedge fund Bridgewater. That path for capable people seems
much better to me than what I had to go through.

If you're a smart, talented young person, I advocate studying hard and going
to a top college rather than dropping out. You might just end up becoming a
billionaire and paying people to skip college as part of a personal experiment
:)

~~~
nostrademons
I think that even the hedge fund stories have more to them than meets the eye
for a casual observer. I have a classmate who works at Bridgewater, and has
since graduation (well, graduation plus the six months of unemployment it took
to find a job). He got there by e-mailing everybody in the Amherst alumni
directory who worked in finance and asking if they'd give him a job, and an
alum at Bridgewater was the only person who responded affirmatively. Now, he
ultimately got the job through the alumni network, which is a tool that
wouldn't be available to someone who didn't go to school - but his path was
still full of rejection, stress, and closed doors.

I suspect that college does help skew peoples reactions toward you favorably,
but that the ability to hustle ultimately matters more to your long-term
success. Then the question is whether having that lifetime skew effect is
worth the $100K+ and 4 years of opportunity cost. My personal feeling is that
it probably is if a.) you get into an Ivy League or "brand name" college or
b.) you come from a lower-class background and your parents don't have a
network or much cultural capital. But for most middle-class kids going to a
second-tier college, the opportunities it opens up are mediocre, and you are
far better off putting the $100K+ and 4 years to work distinguishing yourself
in some other way.

------
nicklovescode
First year Thiel Fellow here. Just wanted to add that the Thiel Foundation(who
oversee the program) isn't necessarily against going back to school and never
have been.

They've been very open that for some projects, academia is a good place to be.

~~~
kevingadd
"Thiel Fellows are given a no-strings-attached grant of $100,000 to skip
college" \- thielfellowship.org

"The fellowship is intended for students under the age of 20 and offers them a
total of $100,000 over two years as well as guidance and other resources to
drop out of school" \- Wikipedia

"Everybody believes that you need to go to college... the average plumber
makes as much as the average doctor." \- Peter Thiel in video interview:
[http://www.cbsnews.com/news/billionaire-offers-college-
alter...](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/billionaire-offers-college-alternative/)

If the Thiel Fellowship isn't about convincing kids to drop out of college and
not go back, someone should tell Peter Thiel and the person that runs the
website. :-)

Glad to hear the fellowship is working out great for you, though! I'm not a
big fan of college myself.

~~~
joshhart
Peter Thiel is lying. Plumbers make about 1/4 as much money as a doctor:

[http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-
jobs/plumber/salary](http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/plumber/salary)
[http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-
jobs/physician/salary](http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-
jobs/physician/salary)

~~~
adamcanady
Haven't done the math myself, but if you factor in years of salary earned
while the doctor in training would be at school/residency/fellowship and the
salary on that page is for folks who have been at it for a while and either
have a private practice with many clients or have been in academia for 10-15
years.

------
7Figures2Commas
Is this really surprising? Thiel Fellows are by in large precisely the type of
individuals who most belong on a university campus. Many of them, by virtue of
their interests in science, math and engineering, will find it difficult to
advance those interests professionally outside of the university environment.

The young folks who _really_ need the encouragement and permission to take a
path that doesn't involve a four year university are those who aren't prepared
intellectually or socially and those whose aptitudes and interests point to
vocational training.

In my opinion the Thiel Fellowship program is a poor vehicle for questioning
the necessity of a university education and calling attention to the higher
education bubble. Unless the program starts serving future plumbers and
electricians instead of future engineers and doctors, it has no business being
promoted as such a vehicle.

~~~
kanzure
> _Many of them, by virtue of their interests in science, math and
> engineering, will find it difficult to advance those interests
> professionally outside of the university environment._

Would more money solve that problem? If 100k is legitimately not enough to
"advance professional interests", then what about 200k? 500k? 1M?

Also, consider the subset of them wanting to do a biotech startup, where
everyone pitching must be a PhD (reality isn't this bad)--- $100k of pre-vet
is probably not enough to make up for the lack of credentials to flash around
to raise money to do the more costly biotech ventures.

------
foolrush
Sadly, a strong argument could be made that the technology sector / startup
scene is perhaps one of the most desperate cultures in need of formal liberal
arts knowledge.

Sexism, invisible privilege, and other forms of uneducated myopia stand as
obvious examples. Interesting technological / sociological solutions to hidden
issues possibly another.

~~~
JetSpiegel
You can add total historical ignorance, even for matters related to the
product they are building. Reinventing the wheel over and over again.

------
absherwin
Spoiler: The students interviewed are a month into their fellowship. Reporting
on decisions that fellows from a couple years back actually made would be more
enlightening.

~~~
conradev
Another spoiler: Only 6 of this year's 20 fellows were mentioned in the
article. The fellows are a very diverse group of people.

~~~
krrishd
I felt the same way about the series Wired did/is doing on the Thiel
Fellowship. I wish they'd cover more of the fellows rather than focusing on
the few that they do.

~~~
conradev
I am one of the guys that lives in the house mentioned in the article. One of
the problems with press like this is that it tends to focus on the philosophy
behind the fellowship instead of the program itself. It's consistently what
reporters find most interesting.

------
IanDrake
And the point is?

Did anyone else go to college with that person that seemed a little older,
seemed to know how to better apply what they were learning, and asked the
questions that suggested they had an advanced understanding?

I did. These were guys/gals who got jobs right out of high school and were now
getting their degrees. And they spanked the typical undergrads.

So, is article this telling me that this is the worst case from the Thiel
Fellows? OK. Great. Next.

~~~
fleitz
Couldn't agree more, I'm thinking about going back for my degree, but mostly
for how easy it makes it to cross borders.

------
saganus
[quote]He views the Fellows program as a two year education of sorts. “If and
when I return to college I can have a new perspective.”[/quote]

I think this is the important bit.

You get the experience of doing something uncommon, the benefit of being with
like-minded individuals pursuing their own ideas and dreams... with the
benefit of going back to school if you wish, a couple of years older if you
want, but with much more real-world experience (to a degree) than those same 2
years spent only at college.

I think the real difference will be made by those that go back to school
actually. Not by virtue of spending those 2 years at the Mission house, but by
virtue of going back to school, learning whatever skills are necessary to then
go produce something taking advantage of both worlds.

------
philip1209
The Thiel Fellowship still needs a success story. It is in its early stages.
All it will take is a single fellow that accomplishes something revolutionary
and cool to completely change public perception of this program.

~~~
SilasX
I thought the relevant success metric would be whether the median student does
better, in order for it to be a case against going to college.

~~~
philip1209
Thiel is accountable to nobody for the results of this program. It's more of
an experiment. It becomes a more powerful tool for the members if the media
likes the program, and a single shining success is what the media requires.

~~~
judk
It's not an experiment, it's a bizarre political propaganda effort in service
of some chip Thiel has on his shoulder.

------
kator
Nothing to see here, these aren't the droids you're looking for..

Seriously how does this prove the program is a failure? Because some people
want to go to school and others want to do stuff right out of the gate.

This is link bait, pure and simple and it looks like it's working almost as
well as declaring some random computer language dead or another one the
winner.

------
jblow
Very weird one-sided article containing no details of substance, like how the
actual projects are going and what has been implemented.

------
brianchu
It's important to keep in mind that it is quite likely that for most of the
Thiel Fellows, there is not much "cost" associated with college. Give the
high-achieving student, immigrant family skew of the fellows, it's quite
likely that most of the fellows would get scholarships or would have parents
who would pay for college if they attend.

If each fellow had to pay $150-250k for college, I bet not a single Fellow
would entertain the idea of going to college.

Personally, I took a gap year before college but eventually decided to return
to college afterwards, knowing that I would be able to get a $100+k dev salary
in the Bay Area if I chose to forgo college. Part of that decision was driven
by the fact that my parents would pay for college (and then some).

On a broader note, taking just one year off gave me a ton of perspective on
what I wanted to do in life, my priorities, and on the value of college.
_Everyone_ should take time off.

------
jeffdavis
The students seem to be keeping their options open, but most of the statements
don't sound like a "plan" to return to school.

The only hard numbers are that 40 completed the program, 40 are enrolled now,
and 6 total went back to school. Doesn't sound like half to me, though of
course it could work out that way eventually.

------
gexla
Bottom line

Ask anyone what they plan on doing after X which is 2+ years down the road and
you are likely to get a BS answer.

They have shown they are willing to a) make a plan and b) take a detour when
an opportunity pops up.

They will follow opportunity until all that's left is the plan. They can't
predict what they will do. Admitting they will return to school means nothing.

Personally, I'm guessing once they get on this path they will embark on one
opportunity after another. Returning to school will likely never appear as an
"opportunity" and they won't go back.

Though some of these teens have already had entrepreneurial experiences, they
have yet to break the cycle of school.

------
jimrandomh
The article actually says: "8 of the 20 kids I spoke to in this year’s program
said at one point or another in our conversation that they’d consider going
back to college after they are done."

Which TechCrunch turned into the headline: "Is The Thiel Fellowship Program
Really Just A Sabbatical From College?"

Which the HN submission turned into: "More than half the Thiel Fellows plan on
returning to school"

Which looks flagrantly untruthful to me, both because "would consider"!="plan
on" and "8 of the 20"!="more than half". So, flagged. Could a moderator please
edit this headline to be more honest?

------
zeeshanm
Don't know much about Thiel Fellows program. But I think just dropping out of
college flat out to start a startup may not be a good idea. Unless you have
been associated with something like a hackerspace where you've collaborated on
projects with other like-minded hackers. I feel colleges are where it is a
great likelihood to meet your potential co-founders, prospective employees,
etc. To give more clarity, I don't think there is any question that Facebook's
early success was due to all these Harvard grads/dropouts filling in the
recruiting pipeline.

------
stretchwithme
It will be interesting to see how those that return to college feel about that
choice after they complete college. They'll have both experiences under their
belt and be in the best position to see the relative value of each, at least
in their atypical order.

Many instructors say more experienced students are more focused than those
that enter college right away. That will factor in as well. There are no
simple answers to this question, except that pushing everybody to do things
one particular way is probably unjustified.

------
acjohnson55
I think almost everyone who can should go to college. But I also think that a
lot of people go to college before they really have any significant life
experiences to inform their academic decisions. Consequently, college for many
is just deferred adulthood, instead of something that actually facilitates
ones' career goals. I'm all for alternative experiences that might help focus
young people, whether they be fellowships like this, service programs,
apprenticeships, or otherwise.

------
GrinningFool
"The acrid smell of fresh paint"

If the paint is smelling acrid, they should get out ;)

------
wavesum
"Would consider returning to school after the program is not exactly same as
"plan on returning to school". Why not write honest headlines?

------
outside1234
Only half?

~~~
gwern
Exactly. 50% - compared to what? Weren't all these people accepted to
prestigious colleges and ~100% likely to go to college? Or, was there some
reason to think in advance that 50% shows the program is a failure while if
40% would vindicate it?

The more interesting question is, what are the 50% who don't want to go back
doing now? Those are the ones whose circumstances would tell us something
meaningful about how well the Thiel thing is working.

