

I Resent My Cofounder - anotherfork

I've written and deleted this post more than once, and I've worked very hard to not be judgmental and make invalid assumptions, but today I just couldn't stop writing, and I think it's finally time to sit on the therapy couch that is HN.<p>I've been working with my co-founder for a number of years. We're great friends, and we have a lot in common. We both have passion for what we do and for our road ahead. I don't think I'd be where I am today without her, but at the same time, I'm starting to see we're not the same people we used to be.<p>I put in around 60-70 hours/week on our startup. She puts in maybe 60-70% of that.<p>I obsess over it 24/7. She seems content to let me do that.<p>When we have new ideas, they are always mine. There are many times I've thought about holding them back in order to build them on my own. That alone tells me I need to do something about it.<p>I have to constantly pull, nag, and guilt my cf into putting in more time and effort, and it's wearing me down. I don't like being a bitch. At our current pace it will take years of this pace in order to achieve our goals. I don't have years to drag someone along, and my family is already tired of watching it happen.<p>My gut says I need to increase my salary and reduce hers, cutting back equity at the same time. Maybe even find someone else to bring on that can contribute equal to the cuts I make. But I'm worried that it would damage our relationship to a point of no coming back.<p>I feel like this startup is my best chance for making it, and I absolutely refuse to let it go in order to move on. So the question is, do I just deal with the resentment and be grateful for what I have, make some sort of monetary change, or fire them all together and rebuild the team?<p>Surely this resentment will boil into something even more negative, and I want to act before it gets to that point.
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zaidf
It is natural to have week to week ebb and flow in performance but the first
step to fixing it is _agreeing_ to observe it.

One solution is getting an independent party, ideally someone you both trust,
and get him to review both your performances and give you each feedback on a
regular basis.

We do this at our start-up by doing quick review calls participated by each of
the 3 founders along with a fourth independent party who gives his honest
feedback on our day to day performance.

Sure, you put in 60-70 hours and _you_ feel she puts in 60-70% of that, but a
bigger question is, is that all needed? You are assuming that your thinking
about your start-up 24/7 and constantly being concerned about it is
automatically adding more value than her. I know because I've been in your
shoes. The answer is not always that you are fully correct.

~~~
anotherfork
You're right, I've thought about this a lot. I work a lot because I like it,
but also because we're not in the black yet. If we were, I'd probably relax at
least a bit, but I've already experienced a time when the clock ran out and
the money dried up. I'm doing everything in my power to prevent it this time.

I do like your idea about getting an independent party, but we're not in the
same region so our mutual acquaintances are few. I need to think on that a
bit.

Edit: Curious, was there any resistance when this was implemented with your
team? How did the conversation go?

~~~
zaidf
Coming from a similar background. I _am_ that guy who thinks about my start-up
24x7, more than my other 2 founders. I've also worked along my cofounder at my
last company where not all went well so some of those feelings carry over(and
I have to be mindful of it!). Also, I've realized that I also have crazy
downtimes or crashes that are bigger than them. In those times, I appreciate
the stability and the calm in the other founders. So I'd challenge you to make
a list of _positive_ characteristics in your partner that aren't necessarily
in you.

Honestly I think a lot of your issues might be with not being in the same
room. I know one of our founders' recently spent a week away and it was pretty
evident that things were getting uncomfortable.

We didn't have much resistance. If anything, this is _good_ because doing a
start-up is scary enough and doing these calls helps build confidence and
reduce self-doubt. And you are not constantly second guessing about what other
partners' feel about the other because those feelings are _expected_ to be
shared on a regular basis in a constructive manner.

On one of our very first calls, I was called out for being overtly negative.
Of course that made me even more defensive in the moment. But that evening I
took a step back, realized I was kind of at fault(even if my concerns were
genuine) and wrote a plan and shared with the team to get me to a point where
my attitude doesn't come in the way of airing genuine concerns.

~~~
stevenameyer
_Also, I've realized that I also have crazy downtimes or crashes that are
bigger than them. In those times, I appreciate the stability and the calm in
the other founders. So I'd challenge you to make a list of positive
characteristics in your partner that aren't necessarily in you._

I could not agree more with this. As someone who functions at 100% or nothing,
it is unbelievably helpful to have someone who is more stable. When I am going
there is no stopping, pretty much everything is put aside whether it be
eating, sleeping, exercise, seeing friends or anything else. But when all that
stuff that I put aside finally catches up to me and I need some time to
recharge, I am so glad to have people around me who are stable and able to
keep things going. I think having people who bring both enthusiasm and
stability is really important. When crunch time comes it's great to have
people willing to lay it all out there to get what needs to be done regardless
of what that entails, but at the same time having people who you know will be
steady and reliable is really important because a company without consistency
is normally destined to fail.

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trevelyan
Are you sure your resentment is really frustration at her and not frustration
at the state of the business? Your lack of salary or funding? Or how difficult
you are finding it to reach customers?

It sounds like she is putting in the equivalent of a fulltime job. So while
its easy to transfer your frustrations onto her ("these problems would be
solved if you put in 70 hours like me"), you might want to be careful you
aren't giving in to wishful thinking. Certainly, if you are putting in 70
hours and that isn't solving these issues asking her to do the same is not
necessarily the right approach.

You need to be able to think clearly about why you are feeling what you are
feeling, and look outside yourself to figure out if the demands you are
putting on yourself and other people are really reasonable.

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jacquesm
It is par for the course that not everybody puts in an exactly equal amount of
time. Have you agreed upfront that you both were going to work exactly the
same hours? Have you agreed on a specific number of hours? 70% of 60 to 70
hours is still pretty good, it's not like she's doing nothing.

I've been in your situation and it took me a while to realize that _not
everybody is like me_. It could very well be that you spend a lot of time but
achieve little and that they spend relatively little time but achieve lots.

Step back for a bit and try to objectively judge not the hours you put in but
the amount of output you generate and whether or not this is more or less than
what you agreed upon at the outset.

What you definitely need to do is to establish what exactly it is that you're
expecting of each other.

~~~
anotherfork
Thanks for the comment. It's good to know that others have been in my place.

I'm pondering your thoughts before replying fully, but I did want to say that
I had the same thoughts on output, so I've been measuring it for the past
several months. Subjective I'm sure, but I'm shipping 5-10x more code, judging
by our repo, and on top of that I'm managing the bizdev side 100%.

When I say it like that, it actually sound like our business is one-sided, but
it isn't. Maybe I should find some way to measure value qualitatively.

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tatvamasi
I would really stress the importance of having an open one-on-one conversation
with her and resolve these issues. Seems like you already tried that and it
turned into a heated discussion, here is some advice on how to approach it.

1\. Have the conversation in a public place where professionals meet. For
example, coffee shops. If you in the bay area, it would be best to have it in
coffee shops known for startup discussions, such as Coupa Coffee in Palo Alto.
Just choosing the right place for the conversation will make sure that the
discussion does not go out of hand. 2\. Come to the discussion with an open
frame of mind. There may be some issues that she is feeling - you should be
willing to listen. 3\. Alert her in advance about the general topic you want
to talk about. So that she is not surprised and is mentally prepared. 4\.
During the discussion, make sure to lay out specific
behaviors/situations/examples that you find objectionable, and listen to what
she has to say. Again, be open - perhaps there is another piece of the puzzle
here that you have thought about fully, and she explains it to you. Example:
"I put in 60-70 hours per week" is a very general statement. A specific
statement would be "Last week, we launched feature F. I did X, Y, Z tasks over
night to make the launch successful. However, you contribution over that week
was only implementing a simple bug fix B. I would like to listen to you to
know how can I help you contribute more to the project." 5\. You may have some
counterpoints to the arguments she makes. Be specific and encourage her to be
specific. Hopefully after some time you'll sort it out amicably and you both
have a good understanding of how each other works. 6\. Contrary to what others
have said, I would not bring a third-party to the discussion. You need to own
resolving this problem. Getting third-party involved too quickly can be
detrimental - they don't know the situation as much as both of you do. Most
problems like these can be solved by honest and open communication.

Good luck!

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krmmalik
I wrote a really long winded reply from my mobile app but the app crashed. So
here's a TL;DR version

1\. Never dwell on number of hrs or ideas as measure of commitment.

2\. She probably resents you too. Fear of vulnerability causes an absence of
trust which results in reduced commitment.

3\. Call it quits and build a new team where you're happy with the work ethic
of your team

~~~
anotherfork
Thanks for taking the time to reply, twice even.

Can't say I haven't thought about #3, but I'm concerned about our customers
and what I'd leave behind. I really love our business.

~~~
krmmalik
Trust me. They'll live. 60/70 hrs a week plus heated debates is not healthy.
You need to slow down.

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jamesntoy
I'm a solo founder and I love it. I don't have the issues you have, but I do
often feel the pressure to take on a co-founder just to check that box.

Way back, I founded a startup with a co-founder, and it didn't work out
because our commitment levels were different. Company failed for that and
other reasons.

But my current startup that is launching this week (PlayPozz) has an
outsourced technical team of about ten people. They work hard and are very
experienced, and I haven't felt handicapped at all. I guess the drawback is
that you have to pay them from day one so you need funding.

I'm not against having a co-founder, but I personally wouldn't settle for
anyone who wasn't a near-perfect match.

I say go solo for a while.

~~~
anotherfork
For some reason, I've always felt the need to have a founder when starting a
new venture, but regardless of what happens here, I do think that's the way
I'll proceed next time.

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Lisa2000
My first reaction is to tell you to act on the shareholder agreement and
change the equity. Buy her out if you can. You build a new team. You have
already waited too long.Great friends do not make great partners. However, you
may be better served by having a trusted advisor speak with both of you
individually, then together, to mediate. There may be more going on here than
you know, and if there is a chance to clear the air and start afresh, you
should find that. Finding cofounders is hard. You must have a trusted advisor
that can do this for you -- it's part of why we have advisors, no?

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daemonl
From my limited understanding of startups, that's quite normal.

I'd suggest first trying to really 'get' that it's perfect just the way it is.
No really, it's perfect. And it's perfect that you want to do something about
it.

Then you will be in a space to choose if you WANT it to work like it is, or
find a new co-founder, or have it work a completely new way.

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nicholas73
Remember that the marginal utility of dollars and success decreases. That
means your first priority is to make the start up work, as the downside is
failure and possibly having to take a job. With this in mind, think about
whether any unfairness is actually worth jeopardizing the chance of success.
Once you have enough money, and +/- a million means much less. The only
question is whether your partner is essential to the company. Instead of
directly fighting with salary and equity cuts, have a candid conversation
about her goals and expectations. Understand her point of view. And maybe her
balanced lifestyle is actually better in the long run.

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oceanician
60% of 60 hours would still be pretty much full time.

You have a salary???? You have money??? Both unknowns to me.

Maybe cut both your salaries and employ some more people, that can help put
more of your ideas into action.

You need to work less hours yourself. Delegate more. Spend some time on a
hobby / interest / go to the cinema / anything.

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phyalow
It sounds like your under resourced... Years for achieving your goals? Time to
rethink your entire organisational route.

~~~
anotherfork
We're not yet funded. I basically funded our business with my savings and a
little client work. We're looking for a seed round on top of all this, with me
doing most of the hunting.

~~~
chris_dcosta
Financially speaking this is your baby, but it sounds like you never set out
what the ownership / responsibility split would be from the beginning. This is
your biggest problem, and is what is causing you to resent the _arrangement_ ,
not necessarily the person. I'm not sure if your startup is making money yet
(you mention salary) but I'm guessing it's 50/50 all the way.

Someone here has suggested talking to a lawyer, but that's a big step for
friends especially as this is the start.

Another suggested getting in a third party. This is a good start, and you
should offer some small equity in the process. Firstly that allows you to
renegotiate your share, secondly, it changes the power balance, and thirdly
(and perhaps more strategically so keep this as the ace hand) you can plant
the seed of walking. This last point is very important because it communicates
that you are prepared to take a project that you appear to have built,
elsewhere, and that they will end up having to do everything if they want to
continue as competitor.

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anotherfork
I want to comment and mention that yes, we have talked about this problem
before, and when we do, it does get heated.

Her position isn't going to change much, not without me constantly cracking a
whip and building equal resentment on the other side.

~~~
Cardeck1
If you need a 3rd party to give you feedback, analyze the situation and solve
your problem I might know someone who can help you although he is rather
helping high profile startups.Leave a mail on your profile if you want some
help anyway.

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intellegacy
Just because you work more hours doesn't mean you are contributing more value
to the company. That said, if you really do contribute 70% of the value into
the company in it's early stages I might discuss with the cofounder a 70/30
split in equity.

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thsiao
Have you asked her whether she is truly happy either? Maybe she just needs an
out too but because of the time she has vested, can't bring herself to do it
either...but instead her passion and engagement has waned?

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orangethirty
What is the state of the business? Profitable, barely profitable, zombie or
nothing?

~~~
anotherfork
The product is still catching up to consulting revenue, but in the red by
about 50% without consulting after salaries. Have a runway of about 4-5
months.

The reason for the salaries is that we both quit our jobs to do this full-time
and have families to support.

