
Scooters are taking cars off the road, a survey says - prostoalex
https://ggwash.org/view/69621/scooters-are-taking-cars-off-the-road-a-survey-says
======
throwaway83628
So many people consider this a menace when in many ways it's closer to utopia.
For decades cities have tried to get commuters to switch to bikes and public
transportation, but nothing has really stuck in the states due to the
convenience of cars. Now that it's happening, some people aren't happy.

The situation is basically that 20% of the population of some cities has
switched to an ideal form of transportation within months, and our
infrastructure isn't built for it. Imagine the number of bike commuters
increased 1000% in three months. That's the situation were in. The irony of
people complaining about it isn't lost on me.

People love bikes, and you never really hear complaints about people riding
them just about anywhere. Bikers have been "violating" road and sidewalk laws
for longer than cars have existed. These scooters are slower and smaller than
bikes, and follow regulations better (reflectors, headlights, sometimes brake
lights) . They're basically as carbon friendly as you can get for a motorized
vehicle. And they're cheap and fairly durable. I bought one ~6 months ago and
no problems for 500+ miles, it's practically taken my car off the road
permenantly.

We should be embracing these scooter with open arms. They're drastically
reducing road congestion at least in my city. Even displacing rideshare to the
point that I've had many drivers tell me that nobody gets picked up downtown
anymore.

But I guess the "get off my road/sidewalk" backlash is inevitable because
people don't like change.

~~~
romwell
I agree with the general vibe of your post, but have some objections as a
commuter cyclist who tried one of the e-scooters (Lime) last week.

>These scooters are slower and smaller than bikes, and follow regulations
better

These things aren't slower than bikes: mine clocked at over 15MPH (I checked
with a sports tracker app). Yes, bikes _can_ go faster. But commuter bikes
usually don't (with traffic lights and obstacles peppered along your commute,
you aren't riding at your top speed all the time).

More importantly, these things _accelerate_ faster than most casual cyclists.

Now, these things might have brake lights, but they don't have turn signals.
And they are way more unstable than bicycles; it's pretty hard to indicate
turns with one hand off the handlebars (and both hands off handlebars = fall,
unlike on a bike).

Its small size is a disadvantage when it comes to visibility. And small wheels
aren't good when it comes to potholes or curbs. And it's not obvious how to
jump off that thing at speed (you can't let go of handlebars!).

So, we have an unstable (compared to a bike) platform that can suddenly,
unpredictably (to others) accelerate to 15MPH. Is this the future? Weather
permitting, looks like it. But we definitely don't have infrastructure for it
yet.

We need roads for traffic like that which aren't for either cars or
pedestrians. And narrow bike lanes which cars can get into simply won't do.

~~~
throwaway83628
They are slower generally. I know this because most bikes pass me on my daily
commute. Maybe 10% of cyclists ride slower, my old bike used to have a
speedometer and I averaged 18-22 mph over long distances.

Also keep in mind that the motors are voltage limited at ~15mph. Near that
speed, acceleration is basically zero, whereas a bike can accelerate further
rather easily.

Acceleration is definitely slower than a bike. Maybe half as much. The
scooters are usually 250w but only ~170 makes it to the wheels. Bike riders
average 200-300w output and when they first get moving people tend to put in
more effort, maybe 400-500 watts. The low speed efficiency of the motors is
also terrible, probably less than 100 watts to the ground below 7 mph. I get
passed by bikes in straights and between lights every day, and pass only a few
bikers a week myself.

Lack of turn signals does suck, I hope they fix this. They should be required.
I also agree about visibility and smaller wheels.

I disagree about stability, the center of gravity of the vehicle is much
lower, and having your body totally unconstraind with feet inches off the
ground makes it far easier to bail. I've flown over the handlebars on a bike
more than once because the high CG and large wheels, got severely injured
once. Bailing on a scooter is easy and I don't expect anyone in decent shape
to get injured because you basically hop off into a brisk run, you can't
really do that on a bike.

I've been riding scooters much more than most, close to 5 miles a day, and to
me taking one hand off the handlebars is fairly easy. It also feels slower
than a bike to me, and sometimes I'll give it a kick start for the first
couple seconds. A lot of the reason they feel fast and unstable is because
hardly anyone has ridden them much IMO

~~~
nradov
Most cyclists can't maintain a speed of 18mph or a power output of 200w for
very long. People who are in good shape and train for cycling can do it, but
the average rider out on the street is probably putting out 150w or less.
Check the estimated power numbers on some popular urban Strava segments.

~~~
eeeeeeeeeeeee
Yep. I can ride this speed and maintain it, but I definitely wouldn’t be
riding that fast to work or I’d need a shower.

Commuter bicycle speed is closer to 13mph. It’s why lights in cities that are
optimized for bicycles are optimized for that speed:

[https://denver.streetsblog.org/2016/04/11/dpw-syncs-
signals-...](https://denver.streetsblog.org/2016/04/11/dpw-syncs-signals-
on-16th-ave-to-give-cyclists-a-green-wave/)

(if anything, I find my pace closer to 10mph when I'm riding to work)

Either way, these bikes are on a bike path which is a safe space for them and
they're moving closer to the speed of cars. Most scooters, in Denver at least,
are operated on the side walk, so you have pedestrians sharing space with
15mph SILENT scooters.

------
neverminder
In the mean time electric scooters are illegal in UK because of some 200 year
old law that talks about pigs and donkeys
([http://uk.businessinsider.com/electric-scooters-
illegal-1835...](http://uk.businessinsider.com/electric-scooters-
illegal-1835-highways-act-2018-8)). Even so I see an increasing number of
people using them, because apparently cops just turn a blind eye, which does
make sense, unlike this law.

~~~
arthurfm
The law regarding > 250w e-bikes is ridiculous too and badly needs updating.

[https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-
and-r...](https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-riding-
an-s-pedelec-in-the-uk-1637)

~~~
clarry
What bothers me even more is the 25 kph speed limit, after which all the
electronics are legally required to be dead weight. Come on, I can cycle
faster than that on muscle power (and I normally do). I've averaged 27 kph
doing 90 kilometers on a friggin touring bike, carrying a sleeping bag, change
of clothes, shoes.

I take a bike to get from place A to B faster. I'd take an electric bike to
get even faster while spending less of my own energy. Actually, I'd be quite
happy even with just 250W as long as I can use all of it on top of my muscle
power, no matter how fast or slow I'm going.

Speed is ultimately what makes me pick the car over bike for longer rides.

~~~
enoch_r
Riding consistently enough to gain speed is strongly correlated with being a
better rider. I don't want to share the bike path with a bunch of 14-year-old
kids traveling 40kph on electric bikes that they got for Christmas.

~~~
horsawlarway
This is a load of horse crap. You routinely hit 25 mph (40kph) simply riding
down hills on a normal bike.

The 25 kph limit makes no sense. It's a slower speed than almost every rider
out there, and it's frustratingly slow as a daily commute.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Routinely? On a standard commuter grade bike?

The Oxford Cycling Club, pictured here
[http://www.oxfordcyclingclub.co.uk/the-kings-
men/](http://www.oxfordcyclingclub.co.uk/the-kings-men/) claim an average of
20 km/h (13mph) and they're lycra clad racing-bike riders.

I think you can break 25km/h readily, but I don't think that means we should
increase the speed allowed with power assist.

There are moves to make city traffic 32km/h (20mph) limited which would put
paid to your 40km/h anyway.

~~~
throwaway76543
No they don't. The Oxford Cycling Club claims an average of 17mph -19mph or
27-30kph:
[https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/club/profile/7892/oxford-c...](https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/club/profile/7892/oxford-
cycling-club)

"The average speed can vary according to weather conditions and ability, but
expect an overall average of around 17mph -19mph for a ride of 60 miles"

Furthermore, an average speed will have significantly faster and slower
portions along the ride. The OCC will drop to far slower speeds uphill and
will ride far faster on the downhill.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
They must claim different averages on different pages,
[https://oxfordcycling.uk/about-us/](https://oxfordcycling.uk/about-us/) says
12-13mph.

Yes, of course downhill is faster. On a mountain bike I've only knowingly once
managed to break 30mph, but that was going for it and definitely not erring on
being safe. My average road speed at the time was about 15mph.

The top speed for powered cycles should be around the normal average as then
there's not a large differential between powered and unpowered bikes making it
safer when they share road space.

~~~
throwaway76543
That appears to be a ride where they've deliberately set a slower pace for a
ride based around socializing. 12-13 mph is about right if you're going to be
leisurely carrying on conversations with fellow riders. Any faster and wind
noise becomes an issue. I can't talk to my fellow riders at 20+mph.

"lycra clad racing-bike riders" ride far faster.

Capping a vehicle at 15mph means you'll be constantly getting passed on
trails. I have ridden a 15mph capped scooter, I was one of the slowest
vehicles in my local area that day. I returned it.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
If you're getting passed, pedal?

The top assisted ebike speed should be well below the top pedalling speed.
Which it is.

~~~
throwaway76543
Scooters don't have pedals.

------
adrianN
Scooters and electric bicycles are the sensible form of electric mobility, but
everybody talks about electric cars. Which makes sense, since billion dollar
companies can make a lot more money selling cars than cheap scooters and
bicycles.

Small electric vehicles effectively solve the last mile problem of public
transport.

~~~
clarry
> Scooters and electric bicycles are the sensible form of electric mobility,
> but everybody talks about electric cars.

Yes, because cars make sense when you've got more than your own arse to haul.
Or when you don't want to end up in your destination dripping wet. Or when you
want to sit in a warm cabin instead of fighting frostburns on a bicycle. Or
when you don't want to be slipping on ice or getting stuck in snow..

~~~
lorenzhs
All of these points are brought up a lot, but none of them are really valid.
Cargo bikes (with electric assist, if you wish) can haul a tremendous amount
of cargo or multiple kids. And weather is really only a problem if you're
badly equipped. Get a hardshell jacket and some rainpants, and rain is no
longer a problem. Get a warm jacket, gloves, and a hat against the cold (maybe
some warm leggings if it gets really cold). And people not knowing how to
behave on icy roads is a major problem if that person is steering a car. On a
properly equipped bike, not so much.

~~~
scythe
All of these objections are terrible.

"Hey, just use this miserable half-solution!"

Cargo bikes? Rain gear? Heavy jackets? _Nobody wants to live like that_. Why
should the future be constantly uncomfortable?

This is why I started hating urbanism: it's full of people whose entire
argument is to deny the reality of other people's experience. Biking in the
rain doesn't suck, crowded trains aren't uncomfortable, cargo bikes aren't
exhausting, "wear a jacket", etc.

We hate these things. I do not want to live in this world you describe. It
sounds _miserable._

~~~
lorenzhs
I don't deny that sitting in a car in awful weather is more comfortable than
cycling. I'm challenging cheap dismissals of cycling as a whole because the
weather is awful for ten days of the year (unless you live in a place with
daily tropical rainfalls or something), and I'm pointing out how people who
live without a car deal with these things.

~~~
clarry
> I'm challenging cheap dismissals of cycling as a whole

Then you're in the wrong place. Nobody here dismissed cycling as a whole. I'm
an avid cyclist but I also recognize the downsides of it, and I understand why
cycling is not a stellar choice for many people. If you read my first message
in this thread again, you'll see that I outlined a few examples of _specific_
scenarios when cycling isn't a good choice.

I live in a place with four seasons. There's _way_ more awful weather than ten
days a year. Winter -- with ice and snow -- lasts months. Autumn with lots of
rain and mud and chilly weather lasts a couple months. Spring, featuring
meltwater everywhere, loose mud everywhere, and then again ice everywhere
becaus it got cold again and the meltwater & mud froze lasts long enough too.
Summer isn't without its storms and rainy days.

"Edge case after edge case" are something I regularly run into, every year.
And the people around me do too. They are common enough that it is not
unreasonable for people to consider a car.

------
fosk
One of the biggest complaint I have been hearing is that scooters take space
on sidewalks, and we are so used to cars that we don’t see that cars not only
also occupy way more real estate around the city (heck, think of dedicated
parking lanes), but are even more deadly/dangerous.

The elephant in the room are cars, not scooters.

Then we have city administrations like in San Francisco - fighting useless
battles against scooters instead of fixing real problems (homelessness, drug
abuse, feces, and so on) that - unlike scooters - really are negatively
affecting the life of us all.

~~~
e40
_One of the biggest complaint I have been hearing is that scooters take space
on sidewalks_

As a 4+ mile/day pedestrian, the biggest complaint I have is many of them are
__ridden __on the sidewalk. I 've had too many close calls to count. I can't
wait for the rainy season to start, so I won't need to worry about them
anymore.

In CA, there is a state law that prevents them from being ridden on the
sidewalk, yet the police in my city won't enforce it. Mayor told them "hands
off" and near as I can tell, the Mayor is working a deal with the scooter
companies. Money over safety. Disgusting.

~~~
m4x
That doesn't sound like a problem with scooters on the sidewalk, but with
riders not being courteous - and the appropriate fix is for people to take
appropriate care, not to boot scooters onto the road.

It doesn't surprise me that there are teething issues. Scooters are new and
most people haven't learnt how to ride one without making other people feel
uncomfortable. That will change in time.

~~~
boomlinde
On the other hand, cars have been around for quite a long time and a
significant amount of licensed drivers have also been unable to learn how to
drive without making other people feel uncomfortable. Betting that we could
somehow fix these problems by urging people to be courteous when we haven't
yet gotten road-users in general to even respect the law seems like a stretch.

~~~
m4x
It doesn't seem like a stretch to me. We already have bikes on our footpaths
where I live (NZ) and it's a non issue. Cyclists just slow down around
pedestrians. People are clearly capable of sharing footpaths courteously.
Maybe where you live people are just arseholes, but that's not the fault of
the scooter they're riding on.

~~~
boomlinde
Where I live, bicyclists should by law be either on the road or on a bicycle
path or one of a few designated shared bicycle/footpaths. There are really too
many pedestrians for it to make sense to use the sidewalk for bicycles inside
the cities, and of course the benefits of commuting by bicycle disappears when
you have to move at the same pace as pedestrians.

Also, from my experience with traffic in general, it doesn't take many
assholes to make a situation uncomfortable, nor does it take an asshole to be
inconsiderate. If one in ten road users or pedestrians I meet every day has a
sudden lapse in judgement, that's enough for it to feel uncomfortable.

------
sonnyblarney
What blows me away is that the US had not discovered 'regular scooter'
culture.

I mean the scooters like mopeds.

They are common in almost _every country outside North America_!

In Paris you see this beautiful girl, flowing dress, like out of a magazine -
and she's on her moped! Out to dinner or whatever, it's normal.

They are cheap and they take up the same space as a bicycle. If SF made a few
'moped / bicycle' only streets, like a grid in downtown, where traffic just
flew by and was fast ... maybe you'd see tons of people make the switch.

~~~
dominotw
1\. Is it less safe?

2\. Only works in cities with good weather all year long. I don't want to ride
a moped in flowing dress in chicago winter.

3\. Cities in US are spread out. I don't want to ride a moped on the highway
to work or a friends house.

4\. Top speed is very low. Safe top speed is even less.

~~~
aeturnum
1\. Than what? You'd rather be in a car than a moped if you crash, but
creating an environment where crashes are less likely is most effective.

2\. I understand why you say this, but it's obviously untrue. Google "Paris in
winter" to see what I mean.

3\. Mopeds only replace some forms of transport. Europe still has airports for
instance - people to no moped across the atlantic.

~~~
jahewson
Big difference between 3C and -8C not to mention the wind. My friend who lives
in Chicago wears a ski mask to walk from the car. I don’t think you realise
quite how cold much of the US gets.

------
edaemon
As a resident of Portland (where the survey was conducted), the results match
with my experience. Everyone seems to like them and they often replace short
car trips. The only complaint I've heard with any frequency is that they're
left in annoying places.

Having used them a bit myself, there are four improvements I'd like to see:

1\. Charging stations. While the current model where the scooters are
collected and charged by people seems to get along, it's a bummer that they
aren't easy to find at night. Most of them have been collected for charging.
That means you can ride them somewhere and then not have one for the ride
back, especially if you're in a group of people. It's also not that uncommon
to be somewhere you'd expect to find one but with none nearby, or there are
some but scattered over a few blocks. It would be nice if there were some
stations scattered around the city where the scooters could be taken for
charging but still be available for use, especially in high traffic areas
and/or transit nodes like light rail stations (see #2). Even better if there's
some incentive to drop them off there. That may help with the poor parking
issue.

2\. Integration with public transit. As it currently is, riding transit round-
trip costs $5. If you use a scooter to get to public transit it costs $7 +
$0.15/min of scooter riding. I'd guess that works out to around $15 total for
most trips, which is plenty. To encourage their use as a supplement to public
transit, it would be great if they were integrated with public transit; e.g.
using public transit waives the $1 start fee, or using public transit waives
the first 10-15 minutes of scooter cost, incentivized charging stations at
public transit locations, etc. Portland has the Hop fastpass system which
could work nicely for the first two.

3\. Get rid of the helmet requirement. I don't hate it but I don't think it's
effective or useful.

4\. The lights need to be better. While it's not that difficult to see a
scooter at night because they're all lit, the lights don't provide much
visibility for the rider.

~~~
masklinn
> 1\. Charging stations.

That has high up-front costs which I'm guessing is why these startups don't do
it, plus it requires negotiating with the city, and assuming your customers
are not selfish assholes (that's an assumption which is not going to hold).

If you want charging stations, aside from the city negotiation and up-front
costs you need to strongly incentivise their use _and_ have permanent crew
roaming around to move devices back to charging stations, _and_ for high-
traffic areas that's probably not going to be sufficient: your average e-k-
scooter takes a couple hours to charge to 80%.

Battery-swapping (gogoro & co) is a pretty good alternative there as your
"charging station" becomes a large bank of batteries you can swap in/out, but
it requires room for standardised user-swappable batteries, and an actual
standard. Not really an option for e-k-scooters where the battery is underfoot
and at least partially structural.

~~~
edaemon
I don't blame the scooter companies for not having stations, I just think they
would be an improvement.

The stations could be on private property to avoid the permitting problem. I
can see plenty of apartment buildings wanting a station out front. Portland
would probably be receptive to permitting them, anyway. As for the incentive,
a small one works pretty well with our bike share program. Full charging does
take a while for a scooter but the idea with distributed stations would be to
keep the scooters charged for longer, not forever. It's not really a charge
problem, it's an availability problem -- the only way to charge a scooter
right now makes it unavailable for the duration of a full charge. Stations
would partially charge it and keep it available.

I think user-swapped batteries would probably be stolen.

------
dpflan
On the HN front page today along with this post is this one:

\- _Study Links Uber and Lyft to Increase in U.S. Traffic Deaths_ \-
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18318609](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18318609)

I am enjoying watching the ecosystem of personal transport shift and take
affect on society. I find it fascinating to see the positives and negatives
become highlighted as people use the services more, creating more scenarios
and observations.

What are others' experiences and observations of the introduction of these
transportation networks and what the future of, let's focus, city / densely
populated areas? Does the future really look like: a gradient of number of
wheels and carry-capacity: from light-weight electric scooters on demand to
electric cars to freight-trucks on demand?

What is needed to sustain and to drive this change in transportation culture
towards an efficient and safer (reduced transportation related fatalities,
reduced carbon emissions, reduced time in long commutes)? My perspective is
certainly influenced by my experiences living in cities the United States.

~~~
Pharmakon
If current vehicle sales are an indicator, the future is still a lot of trucks
and SUVs. Most Americans seem more concerned with comfort, lots of space, and
the ability to survive a collision with another vehicle over changing society.
Maybe it looks different in the Silicon Valley bubble, but outside of that
it’s trucks, SUVs and crossovers.

~~~
therealdrag0
Ya I feel guilty of this myself. I think PHEV are a great idea, but I want an
SUV for backcountry hiking/camping, and recently I've been driving across
state to visit family and the comfort difference between my sedan and my
sister's and gf's SUVs is enormous.

There are a couple hybrid options, but the SUV MPG are so underwhelming (e.g.
ionic 57/59; rav4 hybrid 33/30). OTOH an increase of 10mpg from non-hybrid to
hybrid rav4 is pretty decent.

~~~
ip26
You want an SUV ala Suburban, or Crossover ala RAV4?

Supposedly Subaru will be bringing a plug in hybrid Crosstrek to market next
year. If I wasn't too tall, only fitting in an Outback, that would be quite
compelling IMO.

~~~
therealdrag0
Cool. I'll keep that in mind. I saw the existing hybrid crosstek got mixed
reviews; I think partially cuz it only got 3mpg more than the non-hybrid.

~~~
ip26
Yes, the existing one is underwhelming. But a plug in would take me anywhere
in town on electric only, so imo it's a big difference.

------
matthewmacleod
I live in the UK where these devices are basically nonexistent due to not
being legal on either roads or pavements. I hadn’t been to the US for a couple
of years, so I hadn’t seen them in action, but I just visited San Diego last
week and _holy shit_ these things are everywhere, and an absolute menace. They
were all over the sidewalks obstructing access; they were abandoned in the
Tijuana River nature reserve; I had a number of close calls with careless
riders, and talked to more than one person who’d been in an actual traffic
collision with them.

There’s nothing wrong with the concept, and it’s great to be able to move
people to more sustainable methods of transport - but it definitely seems like
some kind of regulation is needed for provision of safe docking areas,
penalties for unsafe usage etc.

~~~
tbihl
On the other hand, I live in San Diego, and cars act as menaces far more often
than scooters when I'm around, probably at a 5:1 ratio. They do menace
differently, but I do appreciate how much less dangerously the scooters do it.
For example, when someone parks a scooter in a right of way, it's irksome.
When someone parks an SUV in a right of way (too close to corner) it makes it
dangerous to pull out of that intersection. When scooter riders act entitled
to the sidewalk where I'm walking, I can easily bear off. When a driver acts
entitled to the road where I'm biking, they often do it by riding only a few
feet behind me while laying on the horn.

The scooters seem like better neighbors to me.

------
usaphp
But scooters are only useful in good weather, I don’t think anyone would ride
a scooter in winter in Chicago or New York. So I don’t really think they have
a future of completely replacing cars throughout the year

~~~
pmorici
I think you overestimate the extent to which it matters. People tend to stay
home in bad weather car or not. I wouldn't take a scooter out on plowed
streets but once the storm has passed and the streets have been plowed I don't
see why you couldn't use a scooter in winter.

~~~
vthallam
Because of the cold wind. Snow is one thing, but the cold wind blowing at you
is something people won't be comfortable facing while on a scooter.

But yeah, 40F-60F's is completely okay for a shorter scooter rides I guess.

~~~
mitchty
I've gone for runs in -30 weather, its not that bad if you cover up your skin.

40-60F is short sleeve/shorts weather around here for me. Around freezing is
when it starts getting fun to run.

Yes I'm an abberation but I didn't start out this way.

~~~
usaphp
You do realize that 99% of people feel cold in 40F. Think about the majority
of population. Most of them don’t run and just want to do their business by
using scooter

~~~
mitchty
> You do realize that 99% of people feel cold in 40F.

Yes, I addressed that in my last sentence. You presume I don't feel the cold,
I do, I've just learnt how to tolerate it. Buddhist monks can dry wet towels
in -40 weather. The human body is rather more tolerant of cold than you might
think.

Also, source on 99%?

~~~
usaphp
> But yeah, 40F-60F's is completely okay for a shorter scooter rides I guess

It’s not for a majority of people

------
stephengillie
> _The Portland Bureau of Transportation sent a questionnaire to 75,000
> scooter users and received 4,500 responses._

At least there's no question of the obvious bias. Of course scooter riders are
going to report that they use scooters more than cars. How would the survey
results be different if they surveyed car users too?

------
partycoder
The problem are 5 seat vehicles with an average of less than 2 people in them:
waste of infrastructure, fuel, insurance, parking space, the environment,
time...

Which is good if you sell cars, insurance or fuel. If you can be even more
wasteful with a SUV or a pickup truck even better.

In this regard, Clive Sinclair was ahead of his time with the Sinclair C5, a
personal electric vehicle created in 1985. I wonder what a reimagined version
of this vehicle would look in 2018.

------
chiefalchemist
A couple things worth mentioning:

\- It's a self reported based survey.

\- Of all those surveyed, the results are those who responded. That could bias
there results.

\- Replacing an Uber with a scooter doesn't necessarily mean cars usage has
been reduced.

Yes. This sounds promising. I hope so!! But let's get some hard data. Please?

------
kumarvvr
I would kill for a two person electric vehicle with a dome to protect the
occupants from wind, dust and rain. I don't get why there are not such
transport systems. It would be a great cross between a car and a motorcycle.

~~~
_ph_
The Renault Twizy would fit your description.

------
monstrado
As a resident of Raleigh, NC..I can say the feedback has been unexpectedly
positive.

Although, many people approve of the scooter situation, there has been a
couple shortcomings:

* Riding on sidewalks!! Not only does the app discourage you from doing it, but most scooters have wrtitten warnings suggesting not to do it.

* Complete disregard for the rules of the road.

I actually sympathize with people who ride scooters. It turns out, the
majority are not cyclists, and so, when suddenly put people in charge of such
devices they revert to what they know (and are comfortable with), sticking to
the sidewalks.

Furthermore, the few that do meander into the road do not know the actual
rules of the road. That is, bike / cycling rules. Once the scooter hits the
streets it should be treated as a bicycle. It should remain in the right side
of the lane (assuming there's no bike lane), should produce all of the turn
signals, and should definitely yield as any cyclist would. (I totally get that
you might roll through a stop sign because theres nobody around, and there's
no point in coming to a complete stop)

Anyway, this is is my mini-rant from having these things dropped off in my
town for the last few months.

~~~
lizknope
I live in Raleigh too and work downtown.

When walking on the sidewalks I've almost been run over by scooters about 8
times and been hit twice by jackets flying behind and to the side of the
rider. I was okay but it did hurt.

All of my coworkers hate the things and some of them are ready to ban them.

For the first 2 months everyone I saw on a scooter was riding them on
sidewalks. It seems to have gotten better in the last 2 months with scooter
riders in the roads.

~~~
ghaff
I hadn't been in Raleigh 4 hours last week and I almost got run down on one of
the narrower sidewalks.

------
nickhalfasleep
Scooters are great for taking cars of single, able bodied individuals; who are
usually the most numerous in dense city centers. For people with kids,
elderly, the infirm, a four wheeled vehicle with cargo space is still desired.

~~~
apsec112
A lot of people can't safely own and operate a car, either, whether due to
poverty, age, or disability. While no transportation mode is the best for
everyone, a diversity of options makes it likelier that each person will have
at least one they can use.

(also, the "families need cars" thing is an artifact of American city design,
not a universal rule. Tens of millions of families live in New York, London,
Paris and Tokyo, and the majority do not have cars.)

~~~
Pharmakon
Yeah, but those cities already exist, it’s not like American families can say
“Honey, you know this is just an artifact of how our cities we’re designed,
I’m selling the minivan!” Even if people would support a massive national
infrastructure project to redesign cities and suburbs without the car in mind
(and evidence is a majority won’t support that), it would still be the work of
decades.

For now American families really _do_ need cars. As for places like London, I
have some experience here and the underground is a mess, busses and bus
replacement services abound (and are terrible). [https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-
england-london-44953440](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-44953440)
That’s no joke, I’ve been close to fainting myself and it wasn’t even a hot
day. Our politicians don’t care about us, and we’re basically unable to get
and use a car unless we’re minted and willing to sit in traffic. If you want
to hold us up as a model, learn about the downsides you get trapped with when
you give up personal mobility. A lot of us would kill for a car to be
practical in and around London, and envy Americans giant cars and roads.

------
dumbo1
Scooters have somewhat of a negative stigma in London [1], unless of course
the scooter has a Deliveroo, JustEat or other courier on it.

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/07/moped-
enable...](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/07/moped-enabled-
crimes-london-police-called-to-430-a-week-in-past-year)

~~~
em500
Your link is about mopeds, not scooters.

(Confusingly, mopeds are often called scooters in non-English speaking
countries.)

~~~
TomMarius
Even more confusingly, "moped" often means a less powerful "scooter". In
Czech, "moped" is 50ccm, scooter ("skůtr", pronounced the same) is up to
125ccm.

~~~
mcjiggerlog
That's generally what they mean in most countries, in my experience.

~~~
masklinn
Yep, except the US where scooter means kick-scooter:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_scooter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_scooter)

~~~
gregknicholson
That's what “scooter” means in the UK too.

~~~
DonaldFisk
In the UK, a "scooter" can be either a kick scooter like the one shown in the
article or here: [https://www.microkickboard.com/childrens-
scooters](https://www.microkickboard.com/childrens-scooters) , or a motor
scooter, like the ones shown here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scooter_(motorcycle)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scooter_\(motorcycle\))
,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mod_(subculture)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mod_\(subculture\))

This is a moped:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped) .
It has bicycle pedals and a motor. You don't see them much nowadays.

There have recently been many reports of "moped crime":
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped_crime_in_London](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped_crime_in_London)
but this seems to be done on motor scooters rather than mopeds:
[https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/terrifying-moment-
west...](https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/terrifying-moment-west-end-
motorbike-raiders-wielding-hammer-and-crowbar-target-
pedestrians-a3531461.html)

------
therealdrag0
I bought an electric scooter (Zoom Stryder EX). It's really fun and works
really well for my 4 mi commute.

However, it's pretty hard to get into the habit of riding 23min to work when I
can drive in 11min. Also I like to listen to podcasts in the car, and I don't
feel comfortable doing that on a scooter (I feel like I need to monitor
surroundings more.)

~~~
BLKNSLVR
How common is an 11 minute drive to work?

I'd guess there'd be a fair percentage of people that would get to work faster
on a scooter than in their car.

------
oculusthrift
really considering getting a scooter. mainly because it can fold up and go on
bus or train with me. However main thing stopping me is that i would probably
ride it instead of biking and biking gives me physical exercise whereas a
scooter is just standing there

------
leowoo91
So it is now Uber vs Tesla vs Scooters.

------
patcon
EDIT: redacted

~~~
macintux
I’d argue encouraging bikes to be on the sidewalk are a negative trend.
Hopefully that’s not a long-term change.

------
listic
What are dockless scooters?

------
scoot_718
A study in Portland? Good luck making conclusions from that data.

------
blattimwind
Notably older, two-stroke, scooters have extremely bad exhaust processing; a
single two-stroke scooter emits somewhere between 200 to 700 times as much
toxic stuff (in absolute terms!) as a car, including toxic compounds not even
present in four-stroke exhaust (like benzene). So specifically those are
absolutely not a better mode of transportation, let alone a less polluting
one.

Well that and they're loud as f---.

~~~
walshemj
Those 2 stroke engines have been banned for years

~~~
blattimwind
For new scooters, yes. There's a huge number of them on the 2nd hand market.

~~~
walshemj
Not in the EU/USA apart from scooterists who lovingly restore them and do a
few hundred miles a year.

~~~
blattimwind
These were available new until just a few years ago (2014ish). There are still
many of them around, at least here in Germany.

