

Ask HN: going to USA - mfalcon

I'm from Argentina and the next year I'll have some free time that I would like to spend going to USA. My idea is to stay there for about 1-3 months. The reasons are:
-For fun.
-Know about a different culture.
-Improve my english skills.
-Meet interesting people.<p>But going there isn't cheap because our currency is devaluated and $4(four pesos) = u$s1(one dollar). So in order to go there, I'll have to work at some place.<p>I would like to know if there are some companies/startups that hires people like me to work temporarily. I'm a beginner Python/Django programmer and studying Engineering Systems(4th year).<p>There are programs that make something like this, but I don't like the jobs that they offer to do.<p>So I ask you guys if this is possible or if I'm crazy.<p>Thanks a lot,
Mariano.
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patio11
Mariano, unless you have left out important information such as "Although I
grew up in Argentina I am a U.S. citizen by virtue of being born in the United
States", you lack legal permission to work in the United States unless you get
a visa which permits it prior to arriving in the US. I'll just give it to you
straight: it is not likely that you will be able to do this in anything like
the timeline you are currently planning.

Without legal permission to work in the U.S., you will find it extraordinarily
difficult to find reputable employment.

I would counsel against illegal employment -- when I was young and stupid I
worked on a cash basis for a man who "didn't want none of that OSHA paperwork
nonsense", and I was forced to quit the job after he threw a 20 lb. pipe at my
head. (Cleaning oil pipeline components with a toothbrush is, by the way,
every bit as fun as it sounds.)

~~~
mfalcon
Thank you for your response. I forgot to mention this important issue. I'm an
Italian citizen too, this could help me or it's the same as being an Argentine
citizen?. All legal, there's no question about it.

So this means that if in the future I apply for Ycombinator and the
application is accepted, I won't be able to participate because of the visa
issues.

~~~
Kaizyn
If you're an Italian citizen, you might consider going to live/work in Italy
instead of the US. By right of citizen, you already would be legally allowed
to work in that country. Also, the Italian citizenship may entitle you to work
anywhere else in the EU you wish to go. While not the same as the US, you'd
get nearly all the other benefits you had hoped for.

~~~
a-priori
Italy is part of the EU, so Italian citizens are entitled to work most places
in Europe. If you want to improve your English, I recommend working in England
or Ireland instead of the US.

[Edit: removed stuff about the Schengen area]

~~~
ajtaylor
Good luck in Ireland. You may have noticed we're in a bit of a recession here
(note heavy sarcasm)... I'd wager that you'd have a difficult time finding a
job in Ireland. Course both Google and Amazon have offices here so don't let
me discourage you. Just be warned.

Jobs aside, I've loved the last two years I've spent here in Ireland. The
people are lovely, as is the country itself. Still on the expensive side, but
we're having price corrections along with the recession. :-)

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rgrieselhuber
Mariano - email me at ray@firewatchingmedia.com. If you're going to San Diego,
I know of one Argentinian company with offices there so it might be a good way
to get in.

Edit: Also, if you're just going to be there for a few months, check out
CouchSurfing. I've made friends with people from dozens of countries there and
it's a great way to travel.

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perokreco
I suggest you try couchsurfing. It will enable you to accomplish all your
goals:. -Know about a different culture. -Improve my english skills. -Meet
interesting people. at a much lower cost as you wouldn't have to pay
hotels/hostels.

------
joubert
Unless you have a work permit, the only way you could "work" would be if you
come in on a B1/B2 visa for "business meetings".

But you couldn't get paid by a US office - it would have to be your
Argentinian employer paying you and in their interest to have you here for
business meetings (of course the US office could reimburse the foreign office
for expenses, but now your salary) - that effectively means you will need to
interact with a US office of the company you work for in Argentina (or an
associated firm, e.g. in the case of the Big Four).

If you come for "business meetings" you should be ready to demonstrate such.

~~~
osu
how does this mesh with paying individuals (who do not hold us work permits)
while they are situated outside of the united states? i'm think in particular
of small outsourced software development projects.

~~~
joubert
Read the bit about B1 on this page:
<http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html>

~~~
osu
okay. but, under what rubric is it legal for a person without us work
authorization, situated outside of the us, to be paid by a us
person/organization for work done such as developing software?

~~~
joubert
If you don't have work permit, you cannot work WITHIN the US and get paid a
wage/salary by a US person.

What you could do is:

\- employed by foreign company

\- visit US for MEETINGS with colleagues at a US firm - come up with an agenda
(of course you can code during your month here)

\- your work cannot be directly FOR a US firm

\- the US firm cannot pay you a wage/salary

\- the US firm can reimburse your foreign employer for travel/accommodation
to/from/in the US, who in turn would presumably cover your expenses while
here.

The operative word is "meeting" as opposed to sitting in a cubicle and
cranking out code.

What I outlined above is a very common occurrence. Many companies have foreign
staff (or staff from foreign associated companies / partners) come in for
business meetings.

~~~
osu
your insights are really helpful. the situation i'm concerned about is quite
convoluted (for me). no one without a work-permit has worked _within_ the us,
but compensation for a software product was paid directly to the individual.
this involved that individual signing a W8BEN. maybe it makes sense for me to
contact a lawyer at this point. thanks again,

*edit: i don't know if anyone else is reading this thread, but references for a trustworthy lawyer who can discuss a specific situation via email would be welcome.

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gorbachev
As others have already mentioned, you can't legally do anything considered as
work in the United States without a work permit.

If you still want to do it (illegally), which I would strongly recommend
against, no legit company will ever hire you, because you will not be able to
show the requirement documentation to prove that you're legally allowed to
work in the United States. In order for you to get around that hurdle, you'd
have to acquire the documents illegally. Or work for a company that hires
illegal immigrants.

It's a very bad idea.

------
freddythefoo
Look, there's a gray area here that everyone drives a truck through.
Foreigners are able to start companies in America, just not be employed or get
paid. Ever wonder why immigrants have small businesses like grocery stores?
Because you can buy a store as a foreigner, you can operate it, and you can
keep the profits. You just can't be an employee and get paid. Got it?

It's also legal to have a business in Argentina, be an employee of that
company, and come to the US to do consulting. I've never figured out exactly
how legal it is, but the fact that so many companies, large and small, do this
means if it's illegal it must not be very illegal. Every country allows
employees to come in and do some work on tourist visas, otherwise each economy
would freeze up.

For example, I was a software guy working on a hardware device being produced
in China. I ended up going over and spending a week doing integration. On a
tourist visa. I was working the entire time, as did all the taiwanese who came
over to work with me. There was never a question of anyone getting work visas.
I suspect that what we all did was illegal, but it's a gray area and I'm not a
lawyer.

The dodge there is we were working for our individual companies, in china,
instead of working directly for a chinese company. I've never seen a law that
specifies the amount of work where "contracting in country" turns into
"employed in country". Not that I know. There's a practical limit, in that at
some point an official notices and you get in hot water. I suppose. China's a
big country and there are only so many officials. I've done that kind of thing
for weeks at a time; no one ever notices at that length.

Couch surfing can be rather pleasant. I've got an empty in-law apartment and a
pile of code to write, but I'm writing code this month and next, and don't
know if that'll be true past then. You will meet people, you'll learn things.
You'll be paid in pizza, red bull, and experience.

If you have a friend with an Argentine-based consulting company, or you can
find an Argentine-based consulting company, and say you'll drum up the
business when you're in the US but you'll need them to get paid, they'd
probably shrug and say "sure", although they'll want to keep part of your
paycheck.

Regarding whether you can be part of YC, you should be able to start a
company, pick up YC funding, and pay yourself out of the YC funding with a
tourist visa. Establishing a corporation provides added ammunition in case you
go in front of a judge, where claiming a sole proprietorship looks more like a
visa dodge.

What you'll start realizing as you grow older is there's a difference between
"management" and "workers". Management gets exceptions. Workers get the shaft.
Management is invited across borders, workers are stopped and searched. The
largest difference between management and workers is what you call yourself,
and how you present yourself.

That's the filter they'll apply to get your US visa in the first place. You
have to show enough money to support yourself for the time you'll be here.
That's about the same as asking if you're "management" or a "worker".

Sounds annoying to me - if you've got an EU passport, why not just go to the
EU? The exchange rate is worse is all. I might recommend Portugal. The country
is very polyglot (I was in an office there doing integration and everyone
switched to English for me, and they had some UK people in) and there's a
number of tech businesses in Lisbon.

Do travel with one nice sports coat and a pair of good shoes, and smile a lot.

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Slashed
The same issue bothers me as well. I don't need visa to visit the states as a
tourist(I need one to work there though). What if my startup will be accepted
at YCombinator, will I be able to go there and work on my startup without work
permit?

~~~
eru
Probably not. Though I am not a lawyer.

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kapauldo
Mariano -

Get your papers in order, get on a plane and come. Nevermind the naysayers,
just do it. There are 2 kinds of people in the world- talkers and doers. Be a
doer! Best of luck, I applaud your ambition.

~~~
pibefision
This is insane, this is not an attitud question. Working ilegally in US it's a
very bad idea.

~~~
perokreco
I completely agree. The fact that you are a doer, does not imply that what are
you doing is beneficial to you.

