
U.S. wants the EU to accept chemical-washed chicken as part of trade deal - ybahubali2018
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-01-27/chicken-chemicals-eu-trade
======
mxscho
> Perdue on Monday defended [...] the technique to disinfect poultry [...],
> arguing that U.S. farmers now use a chemical called peracetic acid rather
> than chlorine: "Peracetic acid ... is a great pathogen reduction treatment.
> You know what it is? It's vinegar, essentially. To say that's unsafe or not
> to be used, we don't think there's a basis for that in sound science."

I always thought the EU doesn't want this procedure because it effectively
allows farmers to take a short cut and cover up bad practices used earlier in
the chain. Under this premise, this quote just argues against a straw man for
an otherwise meaningless counterargument.

~~~
donatj
I don't understand the logic. If the end result is unequivocally good, why do
the steps along the way matter beyond the "eww" factor?

~~~
the_gastropod
> If the end result is unequivocally good...

I think they'd argue "cleanliness" is not the only aspect of what "good" is.
The chickens' diets and living conditions affect the quality of the chicken.
To say nothing of the animal cruelty angle...

~~~
noelsusman
Then why focus on the chemical wash and not the actual problem people care
about?

~~~
ivalm
Because the wash hides the actual problems making it harder to detect.

------
mariopt
I remember when I visited a supermarket in the states and noticed something
very weird: Not only chicken breast was super super cheap but the color was
whiteish and didn't look right to me.

Since a young age I visited egg farms and I can tell you the conditions are
far from ideal, they even turn on the lights at 3am to enhance egg production.
We're talking about egg farms that are regulated by EU laws. About 12 years
ago the EU regulated how many chickens were allowed in a single case (about 8
I believe).

Even with EU regulation it is well known that the amount of antibiotics is
simple too much and dangerous, we've law holes like: It is regulated in France
but you can cross the border and get it in Spain as they don't control who
buys it.

If this gets approved, I demand it to be labeled.

~~~
gruez
>I remember when I visited a supermarket in the states and noticed something
very weird: Not only chicken breast was super super cheap but the color was
whiteish and didn't look right to me.

Could it be woody breast?

[https://old.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/c9lbu3/psa_can_we_tal...](https://old.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/c9lbu3/psa_can_we_talk_about_woody_chicken_breasts/)

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/bigger-chickens-bring-a-
tough-n...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/bigger-chickens-bring-a-tough-new-
problem-woody-breast-1459207291)

~~~
ceejayoz
The fat on American chickens is visibly whiter than those I've seen for sale
from small local farms as well as the ones in Australia, which both tend to
have a much deeper yellow to them.

I think that's a diet thing, though.

Woody breast tends to give a striated appearance to the meat.

------
mvdwoord
The Netherlands has a treaty (against the outcome of the referendum) with the
Ukraine which allows for effectively undermining our animal welfare policies.

[https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2016/05/ukraine-poultry-
giant-...](https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2016/05/ukraine-poultry-giant-opens-
processing-plant-in-the-netherlands/)

If the EU allows this as well (or finds some weird amended way to do the same
while proclaiming something else) what's next?

~~~
rokalakt
Who knows what's next. Cheaper Tesla vehicles, more US technology, less
regulation around the EU, and so on. This whole "chemical-washed" paranoia is
just propaganda from EU farmers, and EU protectionism. I for one welcome
cheaper products, so at least people who barely afford food would at least
have an option. Certainly if standards of living are so high around the EU no
one would buy such products anyway, right?

~~~
throwaway41968
But we don't want cheaper Tesla vehicles. We don't want mass surveillance
tools that masquerade as US technology. We don't want poor people to eat
chemical-soaked chicken. It may surprise you but not everyone gapes in awe at
America as a model to follow around the globe.

------
sharkmerry
Some stats.

EU - ~500 Million people. "In the EU, over 91,000 salmonellosis cases are
reported each year." [1]

US. ~330 Million People. "CDC estimates Salmonella bacteria cause about 1.35
million infections, 26,500 hospitalizations, and 420 deaths in the United
States every year. Food is the source for most of these illnesses." [2]

1-
[https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/topics/topic/salmonella](https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/topics/topic/salmonella)
2-
[https://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/index.html](https://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/index.html)

~~~
cooljacob204
This is an estimate vs reported cases. Not exactly good numbers to compare.

~~~
amorroxic
Genuinely interested in good numbers to compare then, any chance to elaborate?

~~~
cooljacob204
Actual reported numbers from both ends. But this is a tricky case because our
culture, healthcare and governments are different.

I'm definitely not an expert on the matter but comparing an estimate vs a
reported value is silly.

~~~
tapland
I've heard that people in the US are discouraged from eating raw eggs. That
makes it sound like the EU would be at greater risk, but if we the US doesn't
do proper measurements we can pretend that it makes it impossible to even
attempt to compare.

~~~
ska
Eggs are a funny one, as the regulation is very different between US and EU.

In the US all commercial eggs must be washed, which destroys the cuticle and
is why eggs are stored in a fridge to keep fresh. In the EU commercial eggs
cannot be washed, and are typically stored outside the fridge (and vaccinated
against salmonella, iirc).

There is a lot of contention about the effect on bacterial culturing, but
research I've seen suggests it's a bit of a wash (e.g.
10.1371/journal.pone.0090987)

~~~
anticensor
Turkey does best of all those, in regards to eggs: We have proper vaccination
of chickens, eggs are not washed and eggs are always kept cold in stores
(usually also at home).

~~~
Zenst
Maybe, certainly prudent approach and many I know in the UK also store their
eggs in the fridge, though can't say it's common to see them stored in a
fridge in stores.

Be nice to see some stats comparing that, though different countries have
different ways of measuring stats and then culture of accessing such services.
UK, it's free so people wont hesitate, USA - not free, be cases that ppl ride
it out themselves, or not and only then would be a statistic. Turkey - no idea
and not easy to find such stats in western language as "Turkey health stats"
won't end well in the likes of google and as it in effect, flips you the bird
:groan:.

~~~
anticensor
> Turkey health stats

Your keyword is _TÜİK_ ; the statistics institute of Turkey.

------
jkh1
Chlorine treatment can make bacteria undetectable by inducing a dormant state
[1] so some earlier studies on effectiveness of chemical treatments may not be
valid.

Also the US and EU have different approaches to meat production. In the EU,
the principle is to prevent meat contamination in the first place throughout
the food production chain whereas in the US emphasis is placed on
decontamination at the end of the chain.

Finally, some recent bacterial food poisoning outbreaks in Europe were due to
vegetables so comparing numbers of infections without taking the source into
consideration can be misleading.

1-
[https://mbio.asm.org/content/9/2/e00540-18.full](https://mbio.asm.org/content/9/2/e00540-18.full)

~~~
mzs
They are proposing the use of peracetic acid instead of chlorine.

~~~
jkh1
This may also induce a kind of dormant state in bacteria as many chemical
stresses do. So whether a new chemical treatment is more effective needs to be
tested in light of this knowledge. While peracetic acid has known disinfectant
properties, it's only been used for washing hands as far as I know, not for
ingestion. It's also a very strong irritant even at low concentration, plus it
usually contains a mixture of acetic acid, hydrogen peroxide and sulfuric acid
in various proportions. I am not sure how this would be controlled and there's
been no study on ingestion of this combination of substances in humans.

------
AcerbicZero
This is not a new issue between the US and European nations.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax)

------
cwmma
I had to look it up, but Sonny Perdue (the secretary of ag) is not related to
Perdue farms (large chicken manufacturer)

~~~
runako
He is, however, the first cousin of Georgia's Senator David Perdue.

------
joecool1029
So, I fail to see the issue with the chemical currently used. Chlorine had
obvious negative health issues, but peracetic acid and hydrogen peroxide both
decay quickly when exposed to air: [http://www.foodprotection.org/files/food-
protection-trends/m...](http://www.foodprotection.org/files/food-protection-
trends/mar-apr-18-walsh.pdf)

I understand the concerns about using such processes over having a clean
processing facility but I don't trust the cheap labor (prisoners, migrant
farmers, etc) the US uses to not cause an outbreak. For those doubting this
logic please look at the shit lettuce outbreaks we have every 2-3 months.

~~~
rascul
There's a decent amount of chicken farming and processing in my area (southern
Mississippi). I know a few people who work for Southern Hens. The job isn't
great, but the benefits are ok and the pay is fairly good for the area
(probably doesn't compare well to other parts of the country, though). Better
compensated than the majority of unskilled or even semi skilled labor in the
area that I've seen. Certainly not cheap migrant or prisoner labor.

~~~
joecool1029
I understand it isn't the case everywhere, but slave labor in the US poultry
industry is a thing: [https://thinkprogress.org/the-hellish-conditions-facing-
work...](https://thinkprogress.org/the-hellish-conditions-facing-workers-at-
chicken-processing-plants-1eb2f4206968/)

~~~
rascul
Tyson is apparently not a great employer, but I'm not sure I would call that
slave labor.

~~~
joecool1029
Apologies, I grabbed the wrong link. The one I meant to send is about a
supplier for Tyson: [https://www.truthdig.com/articles/thought-going-rehab-
ended-...](https://www.truthdig.com/articles/thought-going-rehab-ended-
chicken-plants/)

------
tschellenbach
What's the health impact of the chemical-washed chickens?

~~~
advisedwang
One objection is that it allows the initial chicken production to be dirtier
as you can then just disinfect later even. In the EU, the entire processing
needs to be clean.

~~~
mrec
Yes, from what I've seen this is the primary objection (aside from
_realpolitik_ considerations i.e. wanting to keep agricultural prices high).

Salad has routinely been chlorine-washed in Europe for years, and nobody
complains about that.

~~~
guitarbill
I hope most people would agree chickens are a bit more sentient than salad.

~~~
pintxo
They are about as sentient as the salad when this washing we are talking about
occurs. (I really hope I understood it correctly that this happens after they
have been killed)

~~~
guitarbill
The point isn't when the washing occurs, it's in what conditions they have to
be kept in before that to either require or not require washing.

------
stewbrew
I personally don't get this. European supermarkets are full of cheap chicken
meat. Can the US food industry actually beat that low quality meat with even
cheaper and lower quality junk food and still be profitable? Please somebody
call the ALF squat team. This is sick.

~~~
ksec
Quality issues and Transportation cost aside. US Poultry export prices is
actually cheaper than in Europe.

------
C14L
Look, the "Chlorhühnchen" are back!

In Germany, this was the favorite scare topic of the press in articles about
the TTIP negotiations.

So I doubt that they will be able to include that in any new treaty without
causing a major freak-out here in Germany.

------
threatripper
Related is the chicken tax [1] on light trucks which is one big reason why
SUVs (which are classified as light trucks) are so popular in the US because
US companies can make more profit selling them due to the import tariffs
stifling the European competition.

1:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax)

------
chojeen
Do they still have to label irradiated food in the EU? IIRC many people avoid
it because radiation is scary sounding. I have to imagine that chemically
treated meat would be an even tougher sell, regardless of how benign it might
actually be.

------
40acres
I don't cook meat without chemically washing it either. I was raised on
washing meats with vinegar and sour orange and don't compromise on it at all.
Chemically washed is quite the spin considering US rates on food poisoning are
probably quite low.

------
brummm
I really hope the EU will not allow this kind of US meat into the EU market...

~~~
antr
If the EU doesn't the UK will

~~~
brummm
Good thing they're leaving the EU then...

~~~
antr
Indeed, and remember to add to that the additional £350 million a week to the
NHS. It'll be better than living in Shangri-La

------
uhtred
Who is still eating meat in 2020? Disgusting. No excuse whatsoever for
supporting animal cruelty. Shame on you.

~~~
derision
I buy all my meat from Butcher Box. All their meat is humanely raised. All
their animals are pasture raised and free to roam. Pigs have bedding in open
barns, chickens roost in barns and are free to roam.
[https://www.butcherbox.com/sourcing/](https://www.butcherbox.com/sourcing/)
They work with American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals
(ASPCA) on their chicken standards as well.

Not all meat is cruel.

~~~
ceejayoz
> Not all meat is cruel.

To be clear, I'd still consider killing me cruel even if you treated me nicely
up until that point.

------
ArchReaper
Off topic: Does anyone know how they are blocking scrolling when scripts are
disabled and overflow:hidden is taken off body? Infuriating

~~~
C14L
No idea, but on Firefox just click "reader view" and it gives you the text
nicely formated.

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
> chemical-washed chicken

Isn't all chicken "chemical-washed chicken"? Surely, they wash it in water at
some point?

~~~
SkyBelow
I find it harder to pay attention to the actual complaint because they word it
in such a biased manner to purposefully play on the fears of people who
associate 'chemical' with danger. Imagine if someone was complaining about the
European produced poultry because of all the chemicals they put in their food.

------
teekert
I wonder if the EU will ever say: "Hey, change your methods, we can make trade
deal." Perhaps the lack of a charismatic, true leader makes it to risky and it
is too easy to avoid public scrutiny. When stuff goes sour, people blame
trump. Who will us EU citizens blame?

------
p1anecrazy
“ Am I saying that I'm a chicken wing expert? No. But I am telling you this,
the wing is hands down the best part of the chicken.” [1]

1 - [https://www.indy100.com/article/trump-snl-
sketch-2004-chicke...](https://www.indy100.com/article/trump-snl-
sketch-2004-chicken-wing-restaurant-watch-video-9021881)

------
stiray
(Read to the end, it is not what you think it is!)

I have stopped eating meat in 1990, due to the discusting way the animals are
treated and I couldn't care less. At well over 40s I still look young, no gray
hair, medical results are fabolus.

BUT!!! I would seriously ask all the vegans/vegetarians to STFU, they are
annoying to the point where everyone attacks me when I tell him that I don't
eat meat and try to argue. It is embarasing that, as a vegetarian (lacto/ovo
whatever, who cares), I rather don't tell this to anyone, due to radical
groups too stupid to understand, that their aggressive actions are beeing
counterproductive. There was an old saying that fighting for peace is like f*
for virginity. It just doesn't work. And I am so sorry that I think that there
is no need to make every meat eater on barricades due to agrasive stand you
unneededly take.

Just let people eat whatever they want. They will figure out on their own.

~~~
kdmccormick
You may be shocked to find that you are part of the group you are trying to to
call out...

