
Ask HN: Can employers own my work for a year after I stop working (internship)? - obblekk
I just got an offer from a very large tech company (would prefer not to say which). There&#x27;s a clause in the contract that says for a year after the internship ends, if I work on &lt;i&gt;anything&lt;&#x2F;i&gt; I have to send them written notice and evidence that the IP belongs to me.&lt;p&gt;Is this enforceable under California law? Would I be justified in asking them to remove this requirement?&lt;p&gt;I think the way it&#x27;s written, it could even include work I do for class...
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pseingatl
From a legal point of view, the commenters below address some of the issues
which obtain under these circumstances. But as a non-employed intern you are
not going to be able to engage in substantive negotiations with them about the
terms of a non-compete/trade secrets clause. You are not a headhunted
executive, your negotiation position is different. There is great asymmetry in
power in your negotiation. All you can do is sign, if you want this position.
If an issue comes up later--if they even remember you six months after you
leave, 18 months from now--deal with it then. Or have your new employer deal
with it.

Companies are bending over backwards to claim that interns are not employees
when in most cases they very much are, except for the payment of wages. It
will be interesting to see how the "work for hire" copyright doctrine applies
when on the one hand the intern-employing company says, "these guys just hang
around, the school sends them, they're not employees" and on the other, "we
are entitled to the code, processes and procedures they came up with during
their time here."

There was an article a few months ago posted in HN about why it's worth it to
take the risk in signing boilerplate. There are very few exceptions--one
current dispute is the Hoefler/Frere Jones partnership dispute; one side
maintains that an employment agreement that was signed by one of the partners
is dispositive of their relationship.

Ultimately, six or twelve strangers (they call them 'jurors') will be dragged
in off the street and asked to give their group opinion on the facts.

Your internship is very unlikely to require the intervention of these
strangers, so don't worry. Try to learn everything you can.

~~~
Perdition
Under US law if the interns aren't getting paid then they can't produce IP for
the company, because the company is not allowed to directly benefit from
unpaid interns.

Leaving a legal trail showing how your company is benefiting from the work of
unpaid interns is pants on head retarded.

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jnorthrop
He never said it was an unpaid position.

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tehwebguy
This is a paid internship, right?

I would be wary. The law already protects them if you use their IP. This is
just bad, controlling company culture.

Please name and shame, if the company is that big they have sent a lot of
these contracts out.

This isn't a noncompete, which would almost certainly not hold up, it's a
shitty sentence designed to make you think it's a noncompete.

The reason a noncompete wouldn't work is that they aren't giving you anything
in return. Your wages are paid for the work you put in, if they want a
noncompete they will have to provide valuable consideration for it (a payment
when you leave, stock, etc) and in many states there are significant limits to
how much they can limit you.

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late2part
IANAL but this is not a non-compete. This is simply a request/requirement for
you to proactively inform them of what you're working on after you leave for a
year.

Like most contracts, the question you should be asking is what happens if you
breach the contract?

Well, if you're stealing IP, then they can come after you.

But they already can.

So, like pseingati said - go, learn, enjoy. Don't worry about the contracts,
just be a good person and don't steal IP. They're paying you to work for them,
and they own the things you produce while working for them.

If they're NOT paying you, as an intern, well, go work for them, then go talk
to an employment attorney, because I think they have to.

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dragonwriter
> IANAL but this is not a non-compete.

It seems to be a kind of non-compete, except it doesn't limit the exclusion to
_just_ competition, it effectively extends it to any kind of work that
includes any other company's trade secrets.

> Like most contracts, the question you should be asking is what happens if
> you breach the contract?

Sure...

> Well, if you're stealing IP, then they can come after you.

 _If_ the contract is enforceable, they can come after you for breach for
failure to notify them _even_ _if_ no IP is "stolen", and if they can
establish that the notification requirement was part of what they were paying
you for, they could recover some of what they paid you even if you didn't do
any harm besides failing to uphold your part of the bargain on notification.

I _suspect_ , though, that the clause would be limited in its enforceabilit,
if its even enforceable at all. But, IANAL.

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jesusmichael
Thats not bad... 1 year. I've seen 2-3 even 5 year non-competes.

If they are paying to make their product better not learn how to make a
competing product. This is pretty standard.

However California is a "Right To Work" state and they can't keep you from
working for a competitor. However, the next company you work for would also be
liable if your stole IP from company 1. Just FYI... Knowledge of the Subject
Matter OK... Specific Knowledge and Details of Products and Procedures Not OK.

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fsk
Issue #1 - It could be a problem for your next employer, especially if your
former employer sends them a legal threat letter.

Issue #2 - If it's a personal project, don't publish it until after you've
stopped working there for a year.

However, given that it's a large corporation, it's probably a boilerplate
contract and you aren't going to get anywhere if you try to negotiate that
point.

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raquo
Your next employer will probably ask you something like "Are you under any
non-compete or similar agreement?" You will either have to lie to them or
convince them that reporting what you're workin on is not a violation of their
security policies etc.

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logn
> Would I be justified in asking them to remove this requirement?

Absolutely. Just cross out the line in the contract, initial it, and ask them
to initial it as well. The worst they can do is deny your request to modify
the contract. But it would be a totally normal thing to try.

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lugg
These noncompetes are pretty standard, although they usually relate only to
competing software / similar industries you may work on.

I once had an issue with one being too broad and asked for clarification and
reduction of scope, they were happy to comply. They're mostly boilerplate and
most places won't care / do anything with them, its usually just cover your
ass stuff should some employee decide to rip-off their code base and sell it.

A year does seem a bit steep, not sure how it works there but here in oceania
its usually around 6 months and limited by industry/market.

I'd also ask for them to remove the part about having to confirm IP ownership
on everything you work on, its quite honestly none of their damn business.

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Im_Talking
Stop thinking like a techie. Start thinking like a business-person. As a
business-person, do you think this clause is fair?

