
A Friend of Beethoven, Now Rediscovered in His Own Right - CrocodileStreet
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/arts/music/anton-reicha-ivan-ilic-beethoven.html
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pervycreeper
Glad that he's finally getting some of recognition that he has been unfairly
denied for centuries. There is extraordinary intelligence and personality
behind his music. It's almost inexplicable that he doesn't get more attention.
By far the most "underrated" composer that I am aware of.

Reicha's work proves that the style pioneered by Haydn was not only
fundamentally sound, but capable of change and development far beyond what
music scholars would typically have thought to have been possible. Music
history, and perhaps world history would be very different if subsequent
composers had continued along the path broken by Reicha rather than that taken
by "The Romantic Generation".

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natechols
My experience with Reicha is mostly through his wind quintets, which are all
competent, but not especially memorable IMHO. Which is very close to how I
feel about Haydn. Reicha is actually more famous among woodwind players for
popularizing (maybe originating?) the ensemble than for any of his individual
works. Even a lesser work of Beethoven like his wind octet seems like a much
higher standard to me. (To be fair, I've made the same criticism in the past
of the following 50 years of Romantic-era music.)

There are sadly many composers who might've been more obscure if they hadn't
had someone like Bernstein to popularize their works. Nielsen, Martinu, and
William Grant Still are three of my favorites whose symphonies deserve to be
much more widely played.

~~~
jancsika
> Which is very close to how I feel about Haydn.

Well, the melody from one of his string quartets was used as a national
anthem.

In terms of inventiveness, he did things like writing a menuet where the first
half is a mirror of the second half. Also, his "The Joke" string quartet
screws around with the audience with multiple false endings, then a final
ending that makes it sounds like the music will continue.

Also, listen to the last movement of the "Lark" quartet. It's a extremely fast
rondo that chugs along, unexpectedly turns into a 4-part fugue for about 45
seconds then switches back into the rondo themes as quickly as it began.

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pervycreeper
> Which is very close to how I feel about Haydn.

Glossed over that part when I first read the comment! It was Haydn who
essentially created "The Classical Style", which is perhaps the most perfect
mode of musical discourse that humanity has yet encountered. His importance is
under-stated in the statement that he is "the Shakespeare of Music". That is
all quite apart from the innumerable volumes of individual masterpieces that
he created!

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jancsika
Don't forget that an AI codenamed "Mozart" output some string quartets trained
on Haydn's Opus 33, and Haydn then wrote his Op. 76 string quartets which
equaled/exceeded the quality of the AI's output.

A real John Henry, that one. :)

~~~
ivancdg
“I tell you before God, and as an honest man, your son is the greatest
composer known to me by person and repute, he has taste and what is more the
greatest skill in composition." (said to Leopold Mozart, Mozart's father) ―
Joseph Haydn

Also: ". . . scarcely any man can brook comparison with the great Mozart. . .
If I could only impress on the soul of every friend of music, and on high
personages in particular, how inimitable are Mozart's works, how profound, how
musically intelligent, how extraordinarily sensitive! (for this is how I
understand them, how I feel them) - why then the nations would vie with each
other to possess such a jewel within their frontiers." ― Joseph Haydn

Also, a letter from Mozart to Haydn: "A father, having resolved to send his
sons into the great world, finds it advisable to entrust them to the
protection and guidance of a highly celebrated man, the more so since this
man, by a stroke of luck, is his best friend. - Here, then, celebrated man and
my dearest friend, are my six sons. - Truly, they are the fruit of a long and
laborious effort, but the hope, strengthened by several of my friends, that
this effort would, at least in some small measure, be rewarded, encourages and
comforts me that one day, these children may be a source of consolation to me.
- You yourself, dearest friend, during your last sojourn in this capital,
expressed to me your satisfaction with these works. - This, your approval,
encourages me more than anything else, and thus I entrust them to your care,
and hope that they are not wholly unworthy of your favor. - Do but receive
them kindly, and be their father, guide, and friend! From this moment on I
cede to you all my rights over them: I pray you to be indulgent to their
mistakes, which a father's partial eye may have overlooked, and despite this,
to cloak them in the mantle of your generosity which they value so highly.
From the bottom of my heart I am, dearest friend, Your most sincere friend, W.
A. Mozart

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jnetterf
It's neat that Hacklily is right next to an article about Reicha. Very musical
day on HN.

Anyway, here's a piece by Reicha in Hacklily:
[https://www.hacklily.org/#?edit=jnetterf/sheet-
music/Fantais...](https://www.hacklily.org/#?edit=jnetterf/sheet-
music/Fantaise_AntoineReicha.ly)

~~~
ivancdg
Your tempo is a little slow. It's in cut time (2/2) not 4/4\. OK, I'm being
churlish. I recorded this piece for Chandos Records last year, so I have an
opinion. Excerpt here:
[https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%2010950](https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%2010950)

It is indeed cool that Hackily is near Reicha; he would have loved it (and
Hacker News, for that matter). Music notation software has been ripe for
disruption for a while. The problem is that for what most people want to do
the interfaces are too complex and slow to learn.

The problem seems to be getting worse because of the desire to make possible
the notation of as many far-fetched extreme cases, rather than making the core
use as simple as possible.

Imagine if you were to use Finale or Sibelius (two of the best known) as a
novice. Imagine you were JS Bach trying to write his first Prelude from Book
one of the WTC with the software. The patterns should be faster to notate.

A tough problem, admittedly, but an important one to solve for future
generations of young musicians learning the craft. Writing music by hand is
still easier for simple pieces, for solo instruments.

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tomcam
Some of Beethoven’s later piano sonatas get in pretty deep, too. I wonder who
influenced whom. Also the article reminds us that when younger, Beethoven was
a proficient violist. Bach, too, tripled on piano and multiple string
instruments as long as he was alive.

~~~
pervycreeper
Definitely the influence worked in both directions. Some comments by Ilić on
that topic can be found in this video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2xC3UDeTYo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2xC3UDeTYo)

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chrstphrhrt
There goes my afternoon :)

~~~
pervycreeper
Didn't mention explicitly Beethoven's influence on Reicha, but I'd say the
sonata movement he played at the end of the video (Grande Sonata in C Major)
is inhabiting the same sonic world created in the third movement of the
Waldstein sonata. IMO, influence was stronger in the Reicha --> Beethoven
direction, since he simply adopted many of the same lifelong concerns of
Reicha's into his own work around the same time Reicha left Vienna, and
becoming even more pronounced in his "3rd period", while Reicha continued
steadfastly on his own path.

Could it be that the Hammerklavier fugue, marked "con alcune licenze" is a
kind of rejoinder to Reicha's Op. 36, about which he is said to have remarked,
"daß die Fuge keine Fuge mehr ist"? What about the fugue in the D Major cello
sonata, with its displaced accents and unusual structure? Could it be a riff
on the compound and irregular metres seen the same Op. 36? What about the
overall structure of the Diabelli Variations (a long series of different
perspectives on one idea, which could potentially go on forever--not counting
the penultimate section and coda)? Essentially the same fundamental structure
as L'art de varier (which deserves a similar stature in the piano repertoire).
Possibly the final variation, no. 33, a minuet is a reference to no. 39 in
Reicha's set:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks1jAMN7XTw&index=40&list=OL...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks1jAMN7XTw&index=40&list=OLAK5uy_lNYy1W1jNVS-s43RYkm9NWwoN0xGtBZkI)

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Angostura
Thanks for posting this, made a quick Reicha playlist on Apple Music and am
beginning to work through it. Sounds interesting.

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innocentoldguy
Reicha's musical ideas and experimentations were simply genius. He delved into
advanced music theory like no other classic composer I know. While his music
may sound a bit odd to people, it is theoretically sound and shows how vast
and exciting music can really be.

~~~
ivancdg
I agree that there are pieces which sound pretty quirky, which can put people
off a bit. But I have yet to find someone who doesn't like this one (which I
can assure you has _nothing_ to do with the playing):

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSHm3ZphFlk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSHm3ZphFlk)

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stcredzero
Pareto also operates in the context of posthumous fame.

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jacquesm
Funny to see this on HN, Ivan is a member here.

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busfahrer
Ivan Ilic? I thought he was dead. (SCNR)

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jacquesm
I received an email from him last Saturday so I _highly_ doubt that. If that's
your idea of having a sense of humor I suggest you get it checked.

~~~
torkins
probably just a joke referring to:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Ivan_Ilyich](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Ivan_Ilyich)

~~~
jacquesm
Ah, that explains it. Thank you for digging that up.

I've worn my best a couple of times in the last few months, it's been enough
with the Grim Reaper for a while for me, so I'm not too easily amused by the
subject.

