
The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan - geerlingguy
https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2019/raspberry-pi-4-needs-fan-heres-why-and-how-you-can-add-one
======
kees99
Quote:

    
    
      the metal casing helps
      spread that heat around
    

It does, to a degree. But that is absolutely not what we are seeing in that IR
picture. Shiny bare metal is a mirror at the wavelengths that thermal camera
uses. So what you see on thermal image where wifi-module shield and CPU are is
reflection of ambient (room) where this picture was taken. Try waving your
hand around, you'll see it reflecting there too.

To measure real metal surface temperature by IR, you have to paint that metal
(ideally, with black matte paint), or apply similarly-textured sticker.

~~~
gadgetoid
There's a better image here- [https://medium.com/@ghalfacree/benchmarking-the-
raspberry-pi...](https://medium.com/@ghalfacree/benchmarking-the-raspberry-
pi-4-73e5afbcd54b)

~~~
book-mind
That image is still highly misleading, you can see from the overlayed optical
image that the CPU is not coated.

Ideally you'd want to coat any metal surface with black epoxy, and set the IR
camera Emissivity Coefficient to 0.9 (the coefficient for black epoxy).

~~~
delinka
Why would the overlay need to be with the board that had a coating? Buy two
boards, cover the parts on one board that are silver, shoot IR. Use second
board for visible wavelength photo, combine for a beautiful overlay result.

~~~
godelski
Why would you assume that they are different boards?

~~~
stan_rogers
It's not an assumption, it's a suggestion for making an thermal/visible light
overlay photo where the IR photo shows only emitted light.

------
pslam
This article is actually describing how the Raspberry Pi 4 does NOT need a
fan.

This is not the 1990s. It is perfectly acceptable and even advantageous to
design for a high peak:normal load ratio, with thermal throttling. In this
case, it allows for a compact, cheap, fanless design for the vast majority of
users.

There is no evidence the heat dissipated will impact lifespan. It is common
for the components picked out in particular (power supply, USB-C controllers)
to be deliberately designed to run hot. They aren't made on the same process
as the SoC.

I feel like there is a missing piece of the software/hardware design art here.
There are many takes like this on the Raspberry Pi 4 design. Why only one
ethernet? Why no fan? Why not more USB-C? Because it's $35 and because,
perhaps, you aren't the target majority market. It's going to satisfy the vast
majority of people, and those it doesn't have very simple and cheap ways to
mod it so it does.

~~~
ryanmercer
To add to this, I wonder if a properly designed case could create a chimney
effect (not unlike the crossdraft kiln Primitive Tech made in his most recent
video) where escape heat is drawing in cooler air in such a fashion as to be
adequate enough fo the vast majority of applications.

Not that fans need to be very loud, or even spin very fast for something of
this size, I imagine relatively low RPMs (probably sub 100 RPM) could still
achieve considerable cooling, especially with a crossdraft optimized case.

~~~
guelo
But then you would need a "This Side Up ↑" label and you would only be able to
orient the case in one way.

~~~
simongr3dal
The case has small rubber feet on one side and the case is slightly dome
shaped on the other, I think people will be able to place it correctly without
an explicit instruction, plus there is only one “right way” to place it as it
is already.

------
ChuckMcM
Apropos of the thread: [https://www.seeedstudio.com/ICE-Tower-CPU-Cooling-Fan-
for-Ra...](https://www.seeedstudio.com/ICE-Tower-CPU-Cooling-Fan-for-
Raspberry-pi-Support-Pi-4-p-4097.html) (a fan for the CPU that is reminiscent
of the first "big" Pentium fans). I asked on twitter if the RasPi had "jumped
the shark" here, being sucked into territory it wasn't really designed for.

As someone who has lived through the microcomputer revolution it is amazing to
see the "$100 desktop" at this point of history. If we arbitrarily pick 30
years as a delta (so 1989 vs 2019) and use BYTE[1] as a reference a 20MHz
80386 desktop with a 40MB hard drive was $2500 (as a clone, name brands were
more).

An actually comparable computer (32 bit processor at 20MHz, 1MB RAM, 640x480
graphics, 40MB+ of storage (ignoring for the moment "protected mode") today
can be built for less than $10.

That is a huge step function to try to absorb.

[1] [https://archive.org/details/byte-
magazine-1989-10/page/n347](https://archive.org/details/byte-
magazine-1989-10/page/n347)

~~~
akira2501
> That is a huge step function to try to absorb.

It is a bit on the Heaviside, isn't it?

I'll show myself out.

------
LeonM
So does the pi 3 if you stick it in a case, even with a heatsink.

I was using a pi 3 with a heatsink in the official case to play a h265 movie
(which will be software decoded on a pi3). After about 10 minutes I noticed it
started dropping frames and it displayed the thermometer symbol in the top-
right of the display.

When I removed the top lid from the case, the temperature dropped enough for
the thermometer icon to disappear and playback to continue smoothly.

~~~
dleslie
Flirc makes excellent passive cooling cases for RPis. Basically the entire
shell is a heat sink.

Works for me, all my little media boxes run happily with them, despite running
24/7.

~~~
mceachen
I just found out you can pre-order pi 4 cases:
[http://blog.flirc.tv/index.php/2019/06/24/new-
pi-4-cases/](http://blog.flirc.tv/index.php/2019/06/24/new-pi-4-cases/)

(I don't have any monetary interest in flirc, I'm just another happy pi3 flirc
case owner)

~~~
yboris
AMAZING! And it's under $12 [https://flirc.tv/more/raspberry-
pi-4-case](https://flirc.tv/more/raspberry-pi-4-case)

~~~
tallanvor
I was about to order one the other day, but the shipping to Norway is more
than the cost of the case.

------
seanhandley
I can recommend Pimoroni's fan shim. They provide a python project that allows
you to set temperature thresholds to kick the fan in so it's not on all the
time. It's not silent but it's pretty quiet.

[https://github.com/pimoroni/fanshim-
python](https://github.com/pimoroni/fanshim-python)

~~~
rvz
Indeed, the fan shim is insanely cool and I just bought one of these the
moment that it was back in stock together with my Raspberry Pi 4. It also
works on the Pi 3 and 2.

Here's the link if anyone's interested:
[https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/fan-
shim](https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/fan-shim)

~~~
whiskers
Glad you like it! We think it's the best solution for cooling any model of
Raspberry Pi that's available.

~~~
knd775
Does it have a standalone mode, where it doesn't need to be controlled by
software? I'm interested in using it with prebuilt images that wouldn't be
able to run the python to control the fan.

~~~
whiskers
By default it's always on.

If you (optionally) install the daemon then it can use the Pi SoC's internal
temperature sensor to control dynamically based on need.

~~~
whiskers
@mindcrime - I can't reply to you due to max depth. The current version
doesn't, we're having a new, custom, fan made with an RPM feedback line for a
future model but it'll be a couple of months yet.

~~~
Rychard
If you click on the time above the post, it'll take you to a page where you
can type a reply.

~~~
whiskers
Much obliged!

------
adrianmonk
> _If you run computing hardware at its thermal capacity for long periods of
> time, this will cause more wear on the parts than if they are run well
> inside their limits._

So I have a moderately increased likelihood of, at some indefinite point in
the future, having to spend a whole $35 to replace the Raspberry Pi. I can
prevent this by spending extra money (and time) up front.

In some cases, it might be worth it. Maybe I'm using this Pi to control
something, so downtime is bad. (But even then, fans have moving parts and a
high failure rate, so plan to monitor the fan's condition and be prepared to
replace it.)

In other cases, if the performance isn't important to you, it may make more
sense to just accept a shorter lifespan. By the time it breaks, the next
generation Pi may be out anyway. I don't love thinking of hardware as
disposable, but at this price point, it may be smarter economically.

~~~
jrockway
I think if you focus too much on "$35" you will be very disappointed with the
rpi. You need a power supply, that's $10. You need an SD card, that's $10. You
need a case, that's $10. You need a micro HDMI to HDMI cable or two, that's
$10. You need a fan, that's $10.

If you mentally decide "the Raspberry Pi is a $100 computer all-in" you will
be much happier. You won't buy one to sit in a drawer (as many on HN have
complained about), and you won't try to use a USB charger from your phone from
1992 and that SD card you got with your sandwich at IKEA and be disappointed
that it's not very reliable.

~~~
henryfjordan
but when the chip fails from heat stress, you only need to replace that. The
case, cables, and power supply will all presumably be fine.

$100 upfront, $35 to replace

------
prashnts
I’ve been using old ssd cases (aluminium ones), which would otherwise end up
in trash. Drill four holes, use a screw to create threads in those holes. Lay
some thermal tape, and mount the pi. I haven’t seen it rise above 60degs —
plus it looks alright in my opinion. Few pictures here [1].

I got rid of the ports because I don’t need them (headless) and so they mostly
fit entirely. I’ll make some sorta cover though.

Edit: Forgot to mention that these cases are strong. It fell a few times and
nothing visibly bad. I added Pimoroni shim in second iteration because I did
want to keep hdmi there. Also left the Ethernet leds for indicator lights.

[https://imgur.com/a/5DdWQ68](https://imgur.com/a/5DdWQ68)

~~~
pwg
> use a screw to create threads in those holes

You'll get better quality threads, and it will likely be easier, if you use a
proper tap to create the threads:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_and_die](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_and_die)

~~~
prashnts
Thanks for the pointer. I was mostly using discard material and accidentally
discovered that screws can make threads (yeah, not a machinist) — otherwise
I’d planned to use nuts on the other side. I might be able to find a tap at
maker space nearby — I didn’t know what a “thread making tool” was called.

------
kemayo
On a related note, there's a pending raspberry pi 4 firmware update which
apparently makes a _big_ difference to how much heat it's generating:

[https://www.pcgamer.com/amp/if-you-bought-a-raspberry-
pi-4-g...](https://www.pcgamer.com/amp/if-you-bought-a-raspberry-pi-4-grab-
this-firmware-update-to-improve-performance/)

Last I saw, it's still causing some issues with performance of USB devices,
which is why it's not in general release yet.

------
strainer
The Pi4 does not need a fan. There is a grand total of 10 watts of heat to
dissipate, 15 watts max supply but that includes power sent to peripherals and
wifi. A matchbox sized heatspreader which just touches each of the warm
components will work assuming a bit of ventilation is arranged to let 40-50C
air float away. The heatspreader shouldn't even benefit significantly from
being a top conductive alloy - a bit of tin lid will do the job.

Experiences with shifting 200 watts for cpu cooling has people thinking
dedicated alloy sinks and fins and fans are appropriate, but this is just 10
watts - it's child's play ;/

------
hajile
Raspberry Pi tower cooler -- the cooler we deserve.

[https://www.seeedstudio.com/ICE-Tower-CPU-Cooling-Fan-for-
Ra...](https://www.seeedstudio.com/ICE-Tower-CPU-Cooling-Fan-for-Raspberry-pi-
Support-Pi-4-p-4097.html)

~~~
thoughtpalette
That link 404s for me unfortunately.

~~~
tacotime
It's adorable!

[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:k1aQeM...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:k1aQeMacXpQJ:https://www.seeedstudio.com/ICE-
Tower-CPU-Cooling-Fan-for-Raspberry-pi-Support-
Pi-4-p-4097.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

~~~
thoughtpalette
oh wow! absolute unit of a PI heatsink.

------
arendtio
I think 'need' is a pretty strong word in this context. 'Could use' would be a
better term, as the Pi 4 clearly works without a fan, just not at peak
performance for more than a few minutes.

For many use-cases, I would prefer some performance reduction over the noise
generated by a fan.

~~~
Marsymars
Yes, if you're committed to a silent use-case, your options are essentially
between a processor that doesn't throttle, or a processor that starts faster,
and then eventually throttles to a steady-state matching the non-throttling
processor in performance.

~~~
geerlingguy
Apparently a massive heat sink like the ICE tower
([https://www.seeedstudio.com/ICE-Tower-CPU-Cooling-Fan-for-
Ra...](https://www.seeedstudio.com/ICE-Tower-CPU-Cooling-Fan-for-Raspberry-pi-
Support-Pi-4-p-4097.html)) can maintain a safe temp even without the fan
running... but that also makes the Pi turn into a massive device with no
chance of working in a standard case!

------
megous
I'd worry more about placement of the uSD card under the hottest parts of the
board, where there's 0 air circulation in the original rpi case.

"The higher the temperature that the NAND flash experiences, the greater the
acceleration of charge de-trapping mechanisms that could lead to random data
bit failures. NAND endurance is also impacted since endurance has an inverse
relationship to data retention, and the rate of wear-out of NAND cells is
affected by temperature at the time of programming and erasing NAND."

[https://www.eeweb.com/profile/eli-
tiomkin/articles/industria...](https://www.eeweb.com/profile/eli-
tiomkin/articles/industrial-temperature-and-nand-flash-in-ssd-products)

This effect is very significant. It's like the acceleration being 250x higher
between 25°C and 70°C.

------
malensek
Even the previous-gen Pis would easily throttle under load without a heat sink
(although usually installing a decent heat sink was enough to resolve the
problem, assuming decent airflow). As the article notes, the heat was mainly
from the SoC in the past. The Pi 4 is on a whole different level indeed.

I imagine the logic here is the same as with many other Pi accessories: if you
need it, you'll buy it or get it as part of a bundle. In some cases throttling
is not a huge issue. But we're a far cry from the simple plug-and-play Pis of
the past... Another issue is power -- you can't simply run the newer Pis
reliably off any old cell phone charger you have laying around.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
Yeah, I'm kinda wondering just what the Pi is supposed to be at this point. Is
it still an inexpensive low power device for teaching basic computer science?
Because it seems like it's more for making Kodi boxes or the worlds most
powerful LED blinkers.

~~~
marcosdumay
The Pi4 is overpowered for a Kodi box.

That said, there is a huge number of applications for overpowered LED
blinkers, and no lack of people to use them. And there is a great deal of
educational value on having those boards available and easy to get.

Besides, it's becoming hard to find people without access to a machine where
they can learn basic computer science. So this one niche is closing down,
while the Pi is still unbeatable on hardware hacking.

~~~
sjustinas
Could you elaborate on why you think Pi 4 is "overpowered" for Kodi?

From what I've seen, there are still some kinks playing 4K HEVC videos. So
hopefully, when software/firmware/etc. catches up, it should be "just powerful
enough" for a Kodi box, all because of hardware decode.

Barely handling 4K does not scream "overpowered for a media center" to me.

~~~
marcosdumay
Ok, I didn't think about 4k videos, or software codecs.

------
BaconJuice
Just a bit off-topic but what are you guys doing that you need to do CPU
throttling? I just got a Pi4 and wondering if I'm missing out on some cool
projects I can do with it :)

~~~
geerlingguy
The Pi 4 is the first generation that's actually not horrible at running
Kubernetes, so I'm mostly having fun with that (ongoing saga at
www.pidramble.com).

~~~
cwyers
Is this just about how fast the CPU is, or is there some other reason the k8s
experience is better now?

~~~
seanhandley
I'm sure 4GB memory helps a lot.

~~~
geerlingguy
This. Even 2GB is a world of difference.

One of the major issues I had was the master (control) node would start
getting a little weird sometimes, and it was always due to memory pressure
(even if not scheduling pods on the master Pi).

Kubernetes docs _say_ 1 GB is the minimum memory requirement, but 2 or 4 GB is
more realistic, because at 1 GB and no swap you have precious little overhead.

------
MayeulC
Reading all those IR images popping about the raspberry made me wonder why
we're still using a "rainbow" (HSV) colormap.

I think there are better alternatives, that have both a linear luminance
variation, and are colorblind-friendly:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17723041](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17723041)

------
TaylorAlexander
The article references something called the “Flir” heatsink as a case, but
maybe they meant this one by a company called “Flirc”?

[https://flirc.tv/more/raspberry-pi-4-case](https://flirc.tv/more/raspberry-
pi-4-case)

I didn’t find a raspberry pi case made by Flir, the thermal imager company.

------
stcredzero
Raspberry Pi is becoming like a NUC. Meanwhile, there are people using Intel
NUCs as fanless Hackintoshes:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUUP8K3RqAo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUUP8K3RqAo)

~~~
Fnoord
Except the Raspberry Pi is an ARM SOC (ARM64 in this case), while Intel NUCs
are x86-64. macOS requires x86-64 for now. If Apple ports it to ARM, I really
doubt they'll make it easy to run on other ARM hardware.

------
superkuh
This is also true for any real computer which isn't a desktop or server. Smart
phones, SBC, whatever, they all have form factors which mean they can't
disipate heat easily. They all thermally throttle quickly.

------
bjoli
So, I just stumbled upon an amazing heatsink while replying to a comment
below. I use a painkiller carbon tablet pipe [0] that fits (barely) in my poe
hat fan hole.

It brings the idle temperatures down to 42 degrees C, and sysbench never goes
above 61 degrees.

Image here: [https://imgur.com/a/Cr38Abz](https://imgur.com/a/Cr38Abz)

[0]: [https://www.apotea.se/treo-
brustablett-500-mg-50-mg-20-st](https://www.apotea.se/treo-
brustablett-500-mg-50-mg-20-st)

------
reallydontask
I'd guess that heatsink and a case with heatpipes would be sufficient for
most, though perhaps not all, uses and silent, which for me is pretty
important on a Raspberry Pi

~~~
Someone1234
That's what Apple used to do with their Macbooks. Heat pipes into the metal
frame which conducts it over a larger surface area creating natural
convections which carry the heat into the air.

The real downside is that mass plays a substantial role. Meaning thicker
metal, larger cases, are better than thinner/smaller. Whereas a fan can
accomplish similar results for less cost and space (but not passively).

If people don't think passive can work they need to check out Apple's recent
Mac Pro that passively cools two Radeon Pro 580Xs. There's no limit, except
cost.

Personally I still feel a combination of heat pipe, into heat sink, with a
small progressive fan is the ultimate. If it is large enough the fan should
stay off except under heavy load.

~~~
vel0city
While there are not extra fans on the cards themselves, I'd hardly call
anything in the Mac Pro "passively cooled" considering there are three giant
fans on the chassis immediately in front of those heatsinks.

------
kingosticks
There's further information about the thermal control at
[https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberry...](https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/frequency-
management.md) which mentions that config option 'temp_soft_limit' can also be
used. Interestingly it is not used by default on the Pi 4, but is set to 60C
for the 3B+.

------
beckler
well yeah, this thing pulls 3 amps.

even though it's mostly to push amperage down the USB 3.0 ports, those
electrons going across the board are gonna generate some heat.

~~~
geerlingguy
Worst case (headless, at least) with a USB SSD powered off the bus, I was
pulling 1.8 amps. But I can imagine if you’re also driving some other USB
devices, and one or two HDMI displays, 3A is not far off!

------
darkpuma
I'm sure this is a dumb question on account of how obvious it seems to me, but
has anybody tried simply putting _real_ heatsinks on this thing? Not putting
it in an Al case or something milquetoast like that, but actually putting a
proper finned heatsink/radiator directly on the SoC with a bit of thermal
grease between them. Like you would do for a real PC, except without the fan.

AFAIK, the peak power draw of these boards is substantially less than 10
watts, so regardless of how high the temperature of one small part of it
becomes, we're still talking about a rather small amount of heat energy that
needs to be pulled off the board. My gut says that a passive heatsink with a
relatively large surface area to facilitate radiation and convection currents
should be able to do the trick.

------
RoutinePlayer
Raspberry Pi 4 most definitely do need fan. I'm not sure why this is not being
made more clear.

The default case for it also doesn't help dissipate the extra heat either :-(

I've ordered mine fans from pimoroni.com. I hope it addresses the issue.

------
squarefoot
Moving the CPU on the other side of the PCB would allow the use of a larger
and more efficient heatsink, with no need for noisy fans, save maybe for heavy
overclocking. Not to mention metal enclosures or panels which would easily
become themselves heatsinks once the board is screwed on them using the right
spacers and decent thermal paste. Noise aside, fans have moving parts which
can break, especially cheap ones (just about all those used in consumer IT),
and that makes them a weak spot; that's why I would avoid them whenever
possible until really necessary.

------
Duladian
I picked up a 2G Pi 4 yesterday and did some basic thermal testing using the
onboard thermal readouts.

None modified Pi 4 running the latest Raspbian will idle at 67C in a room that
is 22C.

Pointing a small 30cm 5V fan powered off the GPIO header will reduce this to
~50C.

Placing a heatsink on both the CPU and RAM reduces the temp to 50C.

Modifying a Pi 3 heatsink + fan combo to fit the Pi 4 results in a 42C idle
temp.

The life expectancy of the board may be decreased due to the higher idle temp.
IMO I would say a heatsink is the bare minimum for running a Pi 4 and a
heatsink fan combo is required for anything process intensive such as 4k
video.

------
paule89
I would love to have a case for the Pi which can utilise a normal Desktop
Tower Cooler. Be it 80, 120mm size coolers. The larger the cooler the quieter
it can be. (Looking at some nice Noctua fans) Alternatively the seedstudio one
looks good but how loud is it really? [https://www.seeedstudio.com/ICE-Tower-
CPU-Cooling-Fan-for-Ra...](https://www.seeedstudio.com/ICE-Tower-CPU-Cooling-
Fan-for-Raspberry-pi-Support-Pi-4-p-4097.html)

------
opmac
They sell cases with heatsinks and fans for $10-$20. I would just recommend
buying one of those versus modding one like the guy in the article did.

~~~
devinjflick
I feel like if I buy official parts, they shouldn't require modding to get the
max performance out of the product. They should work without issue together.
Currently you can barely get moderate performance with the official case.

This article and mod are helpful, even if obvious, for people like me who
bought an official case with my RPi4 expecting them to work well together.

~~~
opmac
But they do work without issue, until you start stressing the CPU. In the
majority of normal workloads, you don't run into thermal throttling,
especially if not using the official case.

Also, if you have the official case and want to do this mod - for a few bucks
more than the cost of two "pi fans" (which run $8 on Amazon), you can get a
well designed case with heat sinks and a fan.

I see very little reason to actually do this mod versus buying a properly
designed case besides the urge to tinker.

------
w0mbat
It would also be prudent to drill some air inlet holes in the case as far from
the fan as possible to facilitate airflow. Otherwise you Have the fan sucking
on a mostly closed box, which strains the fan and makes it hard to move much
air through. The existing holes for ports seem inadequate for this as they
look largely blocked.

------
Causality1
FYI, you'll get much better definition from your Seek camera if you use
orange-on-purple mode and adjust the focus. Here's a comparison picture I made
of my ceiling fan:
[https://i.imgur.com/CjCFdlX.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/CjCFdlX.jpg)

------
travolter
I was setting up some software on my pi4, just installing some packages with
apt. Most of the time it was idling because I was away and not paying
attention... and it indeed got very hot. Not uncomfortable to touch just yet,
but this was really minimal load... Sounds like I'm getting a fan.

------
y04nn
I installed libreelec on my Raspberry Pi 4 the first day I had it. The CPU
immediately started (while playing 1080p video) to heat a lot to the point it
stalled. Since I haded a motherboard chipset heatsink that I had laying around
on the CPU it worked flowlessly. (I keep it without any case)

~~~
the_angry_angel
This was exactly my intended use case - as a gift for relatives - the problem
I've had is that I need it enclosed to prevent tiny little fingers from
getting hurt/destroying the thing. Tried soak testing it one night and
experienced the same thing :/

Currently I'm hoping that I can modify the case this weekend to fulfill my
needs.

As something intended to be used by kids to learn about computing I do wonder
how many are going to get hurt fingers from the heat output by accidentally
maxing the cpu and/or touching the USB ports, etc.

~~~
krisrm
> As something intended to be used by kids to learn about computing I do
> wonder how many are going to get hurt fingers from the heat output by
> accidentally maxing the cpu and/or touching the USB ports, etc.

Sounds like one of the unexpected lessons will be heat dissipation :)

Probably outside of the realm of weekend hacking, but I wonder if something
like this would work for you: [https://flirc.tv/more/raspberry-
pi-4-case](https://flirc.tv/more/raspberry-pi-4-case)

Best of luck!

~~~
the_angry_angel
Hadn't come across the case. I'll give it a go if my DIY attempts dont work
(or are crap) :D

------
georgeecollins
My problem is I use a shield on top of the PI for servo connections. I have
found that a PI 3 can get hot without a case but with a board on top of it. I
am glad they are improving the PI but I need to think about side mounted
cooling.

------
ars
The POE hat comes with a built in fan, so might be a nice option.

[https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/poe-
hat/](https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/poe-hat/)

------
Havoc
My thinking has been more towards running with an oversized cooler.

e.g. I've got a tinkerboard which also tends to run hot & there simply adding
a solid pound of copper did the trick.

Really not keen on having moving parts on my SBCs

------
TazeTSchnitzel
If the Nintendo 64 was entirely passively cooled, surely the Pi can be? Mind
Nintendo/SGI had much more surface area to work with so this is probably an
unfair comparison.

~~~
bantunes
The Pi 4 is much more powerful than an N64. So much so, it can emulate it in
software.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Not in terms of heat output surely?

~~~
darkpuma
According to random unsourced claims I just found on an internet forum, which
I've decided to trust:

    
    
        NES: 9 watts
        Super NES: 10 watts
        Nintendo 64: 19 watts
        GameCube: 39 watts
        Wii: 45 watts
        PlayStation: 17 watts
        Game Boy: 0.7 watts
        Game Boy Advance SP: 1.6 watts
    

The rasppi 4 is supposedly 4 watts when idle, and under 8 watts when loaded.

(So there is really no question that a machine like this can run with passive
cooling, but obviously it's going to be a function of case size and design, as
well as heatsink size and design.)

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jsharf
You needed to make that heatmap translucent and overlay it on top of the rpi
with a diagram pointing to each chip and what it does. That would have been a
super cool graphic.

~~~
pas
[https://miro.medium.com/max/1838/1*KedwLPE9eXoeuwdciZpE0Q.pn...](https://miro.medium.com/max/1838/1*KedwLPE9eXoeuwdciZpE0Q.png)

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galkk
Might be anecdotal, but some cases with fan on Amazon went to "will be
delivered after some date" in timeframe between morning and $CURRENT_TIME

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mastazi
In the pictures I can see only one hole immediately above the fan, but I
assume you would need at least an intake and an exhaust? Where is the other
one?

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sneak
Has anyone made an RPi4 lava lamp yet? Extra credit if there is a camera built
in that feeds into the camera connector that supplements the RNG.

~~~
vectorEQ
lava lamp / hw crypto module :'D match made in heaven

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bayesian_horse
It already has plenty of fans, me being one of them.

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newsreview1
The new Pi 4 looks amazing! It’s crazy to think the original only had a
single-core processor, 256MB of RAM, and one USB slot.

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vectorEQ
most components should do fine under these temperatures no? on PC usually
VRM's are heat sensitive, but the CPU can take pretty crazy temperatures
itself.

is the issue similar on PI? What component is at risk at these temperatures?
60-70 seems a little hot for a small device , but is it really TOO hot?

~~~
Bootwizard
Damaging temperatures are generally between 90-100°C. Throttling can happen at
lower temps and those are usually CPU dependent (and cooler dependent). Also
CPUs with less cores handle thermal throttling worse as they have less cores
to fallback on if one overheats.

~~~
dboreham
As a sometime hardware engineer, my rule of...er...thumb was that if it was
difficult to keep your finger on the device for 5 seconds then it was
overheating.

Damage to devices certainly doesn't happen at 100C but you might be talking
about case temp under some assumptions about how that relates to junction temp
for some specific setup. In general its junction temp that decides if the
device suffers permanent damage.

~~~
Bootwizard
Well I guess not damage, but most mobos have an overheat prevention mechanism
that will shut the system down at those temps. Can't really use your CPU over
100°C if your motherboard shuts the system off.

Sure you can override these in the BIOS but then you're risking damaging the
VRMs which might be rated at lower temps.

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stevefan1999
I'm always a fan for RPi4

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husam212
What about a bigger heatsink?

~~~
bjoli
That has been tried to great success with the rpi3, so I suspect it will at
least make it less prone to throttling.

Edit: I just stacked a bunch of 10sec coins on the processor (without any
thermal compound) brought the idle temperature down by 3 degrees C.

Edit2: Put an carbon tablet pipe on it, filled with coins. It is not up to
heat yet, but right now it is idling at about 45C. It would probably be better
with some fluid in it. I will probably keep this as my cooler.

Edit3: Seriously: I have wonderful thermal numbers. sysbench for 240 seconds,
temperature 62C.

This is a rpi4 with a poe hat, so my passive cooling options are limited.

~~~
kekepepe
What is 'carbon tablet pipe'? I tried to google it, but nothing useful turns
up.

~~~
bjoli
Sorry, English is not my first language. There are these painkillers called
"treo" in Swedish. They dissolve in water, producing CO2 in the process.

I don't know if they are available in other markets, but in Sweden you can buy
them everywhere.

[https://www.apotea.se/treo-
brustablett-500-mg-50-mg-20-st](https://www.apotea.se/treo-
brustablett-500-mg-50-mg-20-st)

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sbhn
The odroid xu3 had a fan. It was innoying i could here it at night.

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sm4rk0
No mentions of PWM to regulate the fan speed according to the temp?

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pankajdoharey
I would prefer a noiseless option perhaps a good heatsink?

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g00s3_caLL_x2
Well...I'm a fan!

Knyuck Knyuck

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novaRom
I cannot find a data sheet for its CPU (BCM2711B0). Is Pi4 actually an open
hardware system?

~~~
tssva
None of the Pi's have been open hardware systems.

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ausjke
I'm happy I have not bought the Pi4 yet, fanless for this kind of boards is
the bottom line for me, if Pi4 needs a fan, then it crosses the line at least
for me.

