
A combo of fasting plus vitamin C is effective for hard-to-treat cancers in mice - kn8
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200512151941.htm
======
TaupeRanger
The word "effective" is used in a misleading way in a huge number of cancer
studies. Reducing disease progression is not a particularly good metric of
"effectiveness", even less so in mice models. What you want to see is a
measure of _overall_ survival (i.e. you survived cancer but died of something
else because your health declined overall, making your survival moot) and a
measure of quality of life, which is often completely ignored. The gap from
"tumors regressed in mice" to the measures I just listed is so astronomically
huge as to make these kinds of studies almost entirely unexciting.

~~~
mrfredward
Another commenter pointed out that one of the paper's authors, Valter Longo,
has already written a number of books on intermittent fasting. While I think
it's great when scientist publish in a form that is more accessible to the
public, it's important to note that he was strongly invested in promoting
intermittent fasting prior to this research being done, even to the point of
selling a $300 mail order diet.

I think the reason this "entirely unexciting" study is getting attention is
related to one of its author's having a talent for self-promotion.

~~~
whatshisface
> _he was strongly invested in promoting intermittent fasting prior to this
> research being done, even to the point of selling a $300 mail order diet._

The most ingenious business scheme ever devised: a mail-order fasting diet.

~~~
mancerayder
Just think of the savings in postage fees alone.

------
Glench
This is from Valter Longo, who wrote a book summarizing his really fascinating
findings about fasting for health in animals and humans called The Longevity
Diet: [https://www.amazon.com/Longevity-Diet-Discover-Activation-
Re...](https://www.amazon.com/Longevity-Diet-Discover-Activation-
Regeneration/dp/0525534075)

Apparently when fasting (or fasting mimicing) our bodies start burning fat
cells, removing old unused white blood cells, generating stem cells, and a lot
more. In a study with monkeys, the group that was fed 25% fewer calories ended
up living a lot longer and having fewer diseases. Longo advocates doing a
fast-like diet for a week twice a year in healthy people and potentially more
for people with certain health issues.

~~~
windexh8er
Dr. Longo's research and books have been very informative on fasting. I have
no ties to the for profit side of his research but I've tried a few rounds of
ProLon, which is a fasting mimicking diet founded from his research. I've
experienced great short and more sustained results from using it. I generally
approach the work week at a split of 18/6 for IF and don't eat after 8:00P
anymore. It will be great to see more research into IF for longer term
studies.

~~~
pdabbadabba
> at a split of 18/6 for IF

Could you please explain what this means, for the uninitiated?

~~~
PudgePacket
18 hours of the day not eating, 6 eating. It's usually called time restricted
eating/feeding or an eating window with the idea being you'd do it every day.
This is in contrast to extended/prolonged fasting, which is typically 24hr+.

In general IF (intermittent fasting) is a catch-all phrase, and not a
particularly helpful one.

------
cinntaile
This was done in mice. It would be nice if they had included that in the
original title. Fasting seems to always have amazing advantages in mice, but
we need more studies done on humans. There seem to be advantages for humans as
well but the results are usually not as impressive and we need more data.

~~~
goda90
The nice thing about this treatment is that testing should be a bit easier.
Not really dangerous in a controlled setting, and if you find someone who is
early stages of cancer then if it isn't effective you can switch to a known
treatment.

~~~
rightbyte
A strict diet might weaken you right? Many cancer patient get very thin and I
guess you don't want to start the treatment like that so you miss fat
reserves.

~~~
elif
I would disagree and make the important distinction that many chemo treatment
recipients get very thin.

Like saying "I don't have time to take a shower, because my bath takes an
hour"

~~~
nonbel
It's interesting that a side effect of pretty much every treatment for cancer
is nausea, weight loss, etc. Almost like reduced nutrient absorption is the
main mechanism by which the treatments work.

~~~
evgen
Since most cancer treatments target fast-replicating cells and the gut is
lined with such cells I think you have the arrow of causality backwards in
this case.

~~~
nonbel
Obviously I am saying the standard explanation is the one with the causality
backwards.

------
k2xl
Ever since I watched Bret Weinstein explain the problem with using today's lab
mice[1], I've been more cautious about any results involving mice and cancer.

[1] [https://youtu.be/ve4q-1D_Ajo](https://youtu.be/ve4q-1D_Ajo)

~~~
BlackCherry
Yeah this is excellent. I wish he would produce more of this content, rather
than his diet-right "mAh FrEeSpeCh" normie political commentary. I've actually
heard he was an excellent evo-bio professor by former students. What a waste,
but I guess it's cool he gets to hang out with Rogan now, so good for him I
suppose.

~~~
pstuart
I was curious so I went briefly down the rabbit hole, and I was not impressed.
His reasoning is specious at best.

~~~
k2xl
In what way?

~~~
pstuart
I was going to offer up in detail but I probably would have triggered others
here, so I'll be oblique: QAnon is considered by many to be a prophet.

I've been politically engaged for decades and this is the first time I've been
terrified about the outcome of an election.

------
vegetablepotpie
This is purely anecdotal: My friend’s dad has bladder cancer. When he found
out two years ago, he fasted for a month, and is now on a high nutrient, low
calorie diet. He is still alive (and he has lost weight), I don’t know what
affect other treatments have had, but his diet changes certainly have not hurt
him.

~~~
deegles
How did the doctors react to him fasting for a month?

------
jojobas
Combinations are exponentially harder to find.

What if it's fasting + being cold + Vitamin F + whatever new thing your
molecular simulation just suggested?

------
rq1
These kind of articles need to be nuanced or we’ll end up with conclusions
such as “fasting cures cancer”.

The role of cellular autophagy is not that clear: it can promote mammary and
pancreatic cancerous cells survival but on the other hand its inhibition
promotes the development of lymphoma for instance.

Apoptosis can likely have a symmetrical role.

It isn’t clear neither that this behaviour is consistent across all
development stages of given cancers.

~~~
apotheon
> It isn't clear neither

What?

~~~
rq1
The example I gave.

------
giardini
In his book

 _" Wrong: Why Experts_ Keep Failing Us"*

David H. Freedman lists "Eleven Simple Never-Fail Rules for Not Being Misled
by Experts". One is:

> _" It's supported by ... animal studies. ... I recommend treating as
> interesting fantasies any claims for human health or behavior that are based
> entirely on animal studies."_<

------
Havoc
That’s going to trigger an avalanche of sketchy fad diets :(

~~~
api
Sketchy fad diets are a constant thing since forever.

------
vmchale
Good news for mice.

------
xutopia
Was this intravenous vitamin C at much higher dosage than we usually see from
oral supplementation?

~~~
sradman
From the Methods section of the paper [1].

> For vitamin C experiments, mice undergoing standard feeding or at the last
> day of the first FMD cycle started to be treated with vitamin C (4 g/kg in
> saline) via intraperitoneal injection twice a day, every day until the end
> of the experiment. At least 6–8 h have elapsed between the two
> administrations in each day.

EDIT: 4 g/kg twice a day is about 400 grams (0.88 pounds) of Vitamin C per day
for a 50 kg (110 pound) person. 1 gram per day is a good rule of thumb for the
upper limit of oral supplementation.

[1]
[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-16243-3.pdf#page=...](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-16243-3.pdf#page=10)

~~~
twirlip
Thank you for posting the link to Nature. From the paper, the FMD decreases
the ferritin available to tumor cells which makes them more vulnerable to the
hydrogen peroxide produced by the metabolism of vitamin C. Do I have that
right?

------
text70
This is building on a body of research looking at KRAS mutations and the
Warburg effect.
[http://europepmc.org/article/PMC/5216991](http://europepmc.org/article/PMC/5216991)

------
dennis_jeeves
Dr Linus Pauling, anyone?

------
fierarul
I immediately remembered Steve Jobs. Maybe this info was out there even years
ago?

~~~
tadhgf
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8841347/Steve-J...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8841347/Steve-
Jobs-regretted-trying-to-beat-cancer-with-alternative-medicine-for-so-
long.html)

------
missosoup
IN MICE

[https://twitter.com/justsaysinmice](https://twitter.com/justsaysinmice)

------
Markoff
why should we care about mice? I mean get to me when you test it on pigs or
primates at least

