
Ask News.YC: How to re-motivate yourself? - qwestion
I have always wondered what the drivers were behind motivation. I am sure all of us have experienced setbacks and we have had to re-motivate ourselves every now and then.<p>We have been working on a startup idea for almost an year now. The initial days were fantastic, we were totally convinced we had hit upon a brilliant idea, there was vacuum to be filled. We worked crazy hours, got a lot of stuff done. Needless to say we were highly motivated.<p>But lately, I am personally having trouble motivating myself. I see myself squandering valuable time that I could have utilized. We suddenly seem to have a few competitors and it suddenly appear as though we don't have a unique value proposition.<p>And I have been pondering over this for some time now. I do realize that the lack of motivation is a  sign that things have to be done differently, or something needs to change. We either need to course-correct, change gears, think of a different market, a different approach or just look into ourselves honestly and understand ourselves better.<p>I was hoping to find some answers to my misgivings through this forum. I have benefited from news.yc in the past and I have no doubt that you guys will help us bounce back.<p>So here are my questions to sum things up:<p>1. What do you do when things are not going the way you want them to?<p>2. When do you know its time to change? (eg: market, process, partners.. etc)<p>3. When do you know its time to call it quits? (to start working on a different problem)<p>I would really be thankful if some of you could share your experiences so that all of us benefit.<p>Thanks!!!
======
dazzawazza
When I loose all motivation I take a week off. Generally within a few days I
can't wait to get back to work. But I only dabble. I spend a few hours
thinking or researching a small, stimulating area of the project. After 7 days
I am fully charged up. I've seen my friends. I've spoken about the project,
I've got new ideas and I've had a rest.

If after a week I still can't face it... well I'm probably screwed. The idea
may be fine but I've lost it. I generally soldier on for a month, take another
week off and repeat. If the cycle lasts a few months and I still can't get
past the pain. I think (for me at least) it's time to move on.

I can't really answer the specific questions you pose because, well if I could
answer them, I'd be VC boss dude with a suit and a very fast car.

Time away from most problems seems to make them less of a problem in my
experience.

good luck

~~~
philippp
I agree 100% -- when I find myself drifting off during the workday, I take a
break for however long it takes to get back on the horse. Sometimes that's an
hour long bikeride, sometimes it's an entire weekend of "no laptop".

In either case, the mind sorts itself. I know EXACTLY what I have to do during
my next run and I'm motivated and charged to execute.

------
ptn
I always find it useful to go back to the roots, i.e read again that book that
made you like programming, play that album that got you into music, watch the
movie that made you fall in love with your significant other, read the parts
of your code that were the most gratifying to write, and just remember why you
initially thought that your startup was going to succeed.

~~~
fiaz
Sounds counter productive....

If I want to move forward and make progress, I should look back and think
about the past. Perhaps the conditions of the past are no longer relevant to
the conditions of the present. Furthermore, I would think that part of the
reason why somebody might not be making progress is because they are not
paying attention to the conditions of the present while at the same time not
reflecting upon the future.

However, what you are describing does have it's purposes as I have done
exactly what you've suggested above at some point in the past. While this is a
good way to reconnect yourself with past positive states (this helps when you
are in a funk sometimes), I have not found this useful to move me forward and
be competitive against others; to the contrary, it keeps me longing more for
familiarity (the past) as opposed to uncertainty (the future) and whatever
might result (good or bad).

------
davidw
A year? That's quite a while - why not try and release something? Users are a
huge motivator for me.

~~~
st3fan
Users are also a pain in the __*. But I guess that can also be a great way to
motivate your team to do better :-)

------
dreish
Personally I find that the hardest part is just getting started (and I
sometimes find this extremely difficult, spending hours surfing the web or
watching TV to put off making the first code edit of the day). Once I'm
programming, I tend to block everything else out to the point of forgetting to
go to bed.

Mentioned a while ago here was a "martini method", and I realized the above
after I started using that a few weeks ago. For review, the modified version
of the method I proposed is just to do

    
    
       while true
         do
           echo -n `date` " "
           svn diff | wc -l
           # or git diff -- I'm going to switch to git soon
           sleep 600
         done
    

and exercise as much self-control as possible to avoid some specific set of
timewasting or otherwise enjoyable activities (traditionally, drinking a
martini) until the diff reaches a certain length. (Occasionally I give myself
a break if I just came off a hugely productive run the previous day, or if I'm
just wiped out from my day job.)

However, I accidentally set what turned out to be ridiculously low limits
(because of the extra metainformation and surrounding lines of code that svn
diff prints out). As it turned out, I didn't need to revise the limits upward,
because it turned out I was frequently (not always, but that doesn't matter)
staying engrossed in the task long after I'd reached the limit. I realized
that it was enough to create an incentive to reach that easy goal, just to get
me to switch to the task.

The best part is that I never sit down feeling like I've got some
insurmountable pile of work I have to do, even though the project I'm working
on as a whole is much larger than I'll ever be able to do by myself. When I
task-switch, I'm just focused on thinking of what little piece I can do next.
I _can_, if I want, make a few small scattered trivial changes, and I'm done
for the day, but usually it's enough to get me thinking about the code, so I
usually stay at the keyboard.

The fact that the goal is so easy to reach also makes self-control a lot
easier. It's really no big deal if I feel like vegging for the whole evening
-- I just have to do a smidge of work first. And I usually find after I've
taken that first little step that I wasn't as tired as I thought I was.

------
nextmoveone
I think a major factor for you guys, which davidw referenced as a motivational
engine, is rapid development cycles, if you release _SOMETHING_ quickly you
are not discouraged so easily.

4-6 weeks is generally my max. time for spitting something out, otherwise I
get bored and slowly stray away and eventually leave the project/app alone.
Like if it's 12, 16, 24, or 3 months etc. to get something out, by that time
my attention has been moved elsewhere.

My answers to your questions should definitely not to be considered as
advice(except for 2 and 3), but:

1\. I make them the way I want, or very close too it. Or I leave.

2\. After I get feedback from people other than the ones involved in the
development of the product, or after you release for use and there is no/a
negative response from your users.

3\. Once again, after you release and it doesn't work, try to fix it. Ask your
users what they want, can you give it to them? No? Call it quits. Yes? Keep on
going!

------
fiaz
APOLOGIES for making this post so annoyingly long, but I really hope you find
value in the words below.

\-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm going to first share a personal experience from my early trading days to
illustrate where I'm coming from. I used to wake up at 4:30 am everyday in the
Chicago suburbs to beat rush hour traffic and make it into downtown Chicago at
6:30 am. In order to wake up so early, I fell into a habit of sleeping at 9:00
pm and like a robot waking up at 4:30 am. This simple routine was indirectly
helpful when things seemed darkest.

For the first six months, I lost money and was ridiculed constantly by other
traders who were more successful than me (which was about 20 other guys
CONSTANTLY using me as a punching/whipping bag). The only thing that kept me
going was the fact that some of the very same traders that would be making
wise cracks at me for losing money were some of the most successful people I
knew at the time. For better or worse, if I needed a trader to model myself
after, it was the same people that were telling me how bad a trader I was -
and although I was not open to really hear what they were saying, they were
right about my skills in every way (but their feedback was always packaged in
some sort of insult).

After racking up some rather hefty losses, I was determined to quit at one
point during month four, but because I had a habit of waking up at 4:30 am I
simply "forgot" that the night before I told myself I would quit and spare
myself further humiliation...by then I was warned that I was now on the red
list of traders ready to be cut. Also, my personal savings were starting to
approach zero (the base "draw" for house traders was enough to pay for food;
you usually make your money on a percentage of your profits, and I was deep in
the red at the time).

To say the least, there were many excellent reasons to be "reasonable", forget
about my dreams, and quit.

After 4 consecutive "failures to quit", I realized that I didn't quit because
somewhere deep down I was hanging on to a dream, however remote at that point:
that I could somehow be as successful as the other traders that I knew. At the
same time I realized that I had hit rock bottom in that I couldn't even
succeed in failing! Very tough times indeed...

An interesting point to note here is that although my losses were starting to
get very large, the people who were funding me as a trader kept me because I
had one redeeming quality: EFFORT, and this helped build tenacity. Other
traders who barely traded but had a fraction of my losses were cut much faster
because they didn't put forth much effort. They were not willing to take
losses and be bold/brave and fight it out; I was willing to take risks, and
this saved me from getting cut faster than others.

Slowly I began to reinterpret the constant humiliation I was suffering:
perhaps the other traders were right about their "jokes" and there might be
something in what they are saying that will help me get out of the red. I also
realized that since I had failed at quitting (which was now the ULTIMATE
failure), there was no further failure for me and that if I took baby steps
they were surely to succeed (this translated into taking smaller
trades/profits).

Only after improving upon my abilities as a trader and channeling my energies
appropriately did I succeed and earn everybody's respect as a trader (and you
have no idea how this made me feel!). I quickly made enough in commissions to
be trading my own account, and be successful as an independent trader onward.
When I look back at those final months of 1999 (yeah that's right, I was
losing huge cash at the end of 1999 when the entire market was going crazy
UP!), there was more good than bad even when I was getting my ass handed to
me. It's just that I was intentionally creating my own feedback (I'm right
everybody else is wrong) instead of seeing the results I was getting
(losses/insults) as feedback and information that would help me be successful.

I kind of snicker every time I see somebody ask for feedback on their startup
on YC.News only to end up justifying themselves by telling everybody why they
did what they did when they get negative feedback, which is the feedback of
greatest value. If somebody tells you how crappy your idea is, thank them that
they even spent a few brain cycles considering your idea.

The lessons I learned from this that are perhaps relevant to your questions:

\- Determine if you believe in yourself to succeed as an individual (I know
this sounds odd, but for a moment just examine your thought patterns and your
actions and see what message you are sending to yourself; do you listen to the
voice that says you can't or are you paying attention to the feedback from
your efforts and the results you are getting?)

\- Search deep down inside and see if the project you are working on is
something you believe in or not. If you can't sell yourself, then you
shouldn't bother trying any further...

\- ANY attention you get for your efforts is good attention. If you get LOTS
of negative feedback, then be grateful - you've jumped the first hurdle of
getting people to give a damn about what you are doing! :)

\- There is responsibility and accountability that goes with both success and
failure. You need to be ready for both because they can be equally painful in
equal ways. The amount of accountability that comes with success can be more
unbearable than the accountability that accompanies failure. I personally know
of some very talented people who enjoyed phenomenal initial success only to
find just as fast that they were in over their heads.

\- The more you resist the possibility of failure then you are less likely to
recognize possibilities that will help you succeed. If you are afraid to fail,
then most certainly you are afraid to succeed. This sounds counterintuitive
but it's based upon the fact that fear makes your mind less supple and less
responsive to the changes that will push you out of the game - or conversely
it will lessen the impulse to jump on the opportunities you need to succeed.

\- The results you get has everything to do with your users/market and less to
do with you as an individual; it's sometimes hard to separate these two. See
the other side of the equation and what side you are on before trying to solve
it. Don't ever think you are above the feedback of your users...EVER!

\- Don't have expectations (this is just setting yourself up for failure).
Because you are starting out you may not know what is best to help you succeed
- ESPECIALLY if you're lacking motivation. Keep in mind that whatever results
you get from your efforts will lead to more possibilities (in the form of
additional information).

\- Have some behavioral "context" within which to exercise discipline and
structure. Seek to grow your efforts within this context. My context was my
sleep schedule. It was a routine that was so ingrained that my drive had a
laser focus. This might not work for some, but it worked for me.

Finally, I will add that in my opinion failing hard and fast is MUCH better
than failing slowly. The faster you know for certain something isn't going to
work out, the sooner you can cut your losses and move on to your next idea.
When you eventually succeed, you will look back at all the times you were
quick to cut your losses and get to where you are...

\---------------------------------------------------------

Please do NOT contact me asking for advice in trading/investing. This is a
VERY personal thing, and it has everything to do with who you are, NOT with
how much information you have, or which tools you use, or who you know.

------
vanekl
I meant to ask this question myself but I just couldn't find the motivation.

Seriously, procrastination is the way your subconscious tells you something is
wrong and needs to be fixed, or all of your work is for naught. So either
stop, talk to your buddies, and fix it so that you can get re-motivated, or
check all the code back in unlocked and go find the next challenge. Your
subconscious is trying to tell you something; listen to it and address it,
because it's almost always right. The answer is not here, but you already knew
that, didn't you?

------
m0nty
I develop an open source project which I might offer as a paid-for service at
some point. But the open source bit is highly beneficial to me, because it
provides:

\- User testing, often from the clueful. \- Feedback and ideas from users. \-
Hence, an idea of where I should take the project to keep my customers happy
and interested. \- Motivation, because I'm doing something for me and not just
other people. We're social animals, even if we're also hackers ;)

I find that right now (two months after starting the project) I have plenty of
enthusiasm and my objectives are perfectly aligned with my users'. If I'm
hunting a bug for someone, it's not a case of "why do I have to do this when I
could be doing 'real' programming?" I want the bug fixed, he wants the bug
fixed, we both benefit (and I've got some free user testing and bug
identification into the bargain).

Now, maybe you can't open source your stuff, either because you don't want to,
or it doesn't fit your business model, or it's just not that kind of product.
But maybe you could try (if you haven't already) finding some early testers
who can give you the benefits I'm getting from my users: feedback, ideas and
(critically in your case) an indication of whether or not your product is
going anywhere. Maybe you can find a small re-alignment you can make which
will allow you to reach a tipping point - it's often the small things which do
it. Maybe you could get readers here to help you with this..?

Also, I would say (having worked on many programming projects of varying
sizes) there is _always_ a point in any project where you think it's not going
anywhere, you're discouraged and wondering if you should go on. You have to
push through that. I'm doing some client work at the moment which is really
dragging me down, I was unhappy with the database structure and the
presentation was ordinary. I showed it to the client and they loved it. It was
a real boost. So at least I have them on-side, even though the project overall
I'd love to complete and move on.

------
crux_
I'm perhaps different than a lot of the other folks here doing startups. My
goal in my entrepreneurship is not to exit to $millions; it is to create a
long-term sustainable lifestyle for myself where I am continually doing work
that I find interesting and also have have the time to enjoy other pursuits...

Viewed through that lens, then as soon as dissatisfaction or a lack of
motivation become chronic rather than intermittent, it's clear that something
needs to change.

It sounds like you have been trying to whip yourself into shape -- trying to
create external motivations to push you through tasks you no longer find
enjoyable on their own. This isn't sustainable; sooner or later you'll run
out.

Personally, I:

* Don't beat myself up about time spent procrastinating as long as it's reasonable. Brain breaks (I play a lot of go online) are just fine; it's taken me a lot of work to break the "slack off -> guilt -> demotivation -> more slacking off" cycle,. Hint: The solution is not to crank up the "guilt" lever.

* I make sure I'm not working too much, even when I'm very excited. Things will still be there tomorrow, and in the sober light of day my 2 am code usually sucks.

* I nurture other interests and hobbies, including non-programming ones. I always have a couple of 'learning' side projects going on, and I make sure to go rock climbing (my excercise drug of choice!) at least once a week.

* It's always time to change! My business plan (drawn out in Inkscape) looks like a railyard, with lots of potential branches being added.

* I always start with high expectations and a huge feature list; I've begun to accept that trimming this back is a natural and inevitable part of actually getting anything done. Maybe it would be a good idea for you to call a 'feature freeze' and get a release out? Like someone else said, a year is a long time to be working in a vacuum.

...

Time for me to get back to work and stop being distracted, now. ;)

------
mrtron
I just went through a period of being unmotivated; I hit the perfect storm of
being sick, having guests, and worst of all having a really chunk of code that
was completely undefined as to what approach I should take, and how it could
nicely fit in with everything.

1\. Take a break.

2\. and 3. Most of the time I want to stop, it is not time to change. A
perfect analogy for me is I was working on a really difficult puzzle (yes, a
real puzzle), and with about 100 pieces remaining I would have swore with a
99% certainty factor that a bunch of pieces were missing. I was so close to
finishing, but I started to think a handful of pieces were missing so I almost
quit. It turns out, one piece was missing and that is what planted the seed of
a bunch of pieces missing, and the other pieces were just difficult. So for me
personally that last push to finish and stay motivated and not quit is very
difficult.

Different people deal with things differently, but that puzzle analogy relates
to a lot of things in my life. I almost quit right before I am about to make a
breakthrough, and forcing myself to struggle and churn is quite difficult but
necessary.

Often having someone else help me get through that part is useful, for example
just working on something with someone else will give me a reason to finish.
Sometimes they can even help do that finishing part - some of my best working
partners are great at polishing and tweaking right at the end, since thats
what I lack.

Just wait until I release my next app, I am sure this will be reflected in it.

------
edw519
A few of my hard earned lessons:

Time spent working does NOT necessarily = amount of work completed. It's easy
to get discouraged when you "sense" you're not spending enough time on
something. Two days ago, for example, I came here 827 times (well maybe not
that many). But it was a very productive day! By the end of the day, I figured
something out and the flood gates opened. That's just how it works for hackers
sometimes. If you don't care anymore, that's one thing. But being frustrated
about time spent is a signal something else is wrong, not your commitment.

Some experts think we are either preprogrammed with "moving toward" or "moving
away" internal metaprograms. OK, whatever. I'm a very positive optimistic
person, so I just assumed I was a "moving toward" person. Wrong! I am HIGHLY
motivated by that which I do not like, but I never realized it. If I see
something I like, I think, "that's cool". But if I see something I don't like,
I think, "That sucks. I can do way better than that." So I do. It may be one
of the 7 deadly sins, but jealousy is a great motivator for "moving away"
people. I'm older than every speaker at Startup Weekend, the Chief Justice of
the Supreme Court, and possibly our next president. But I'm just as smart as
any of them, and I haven't got mine yet. That just pisses me off! (See, it
works, I'm ready to hack right now.) What about you? How are you programmed?
What can you do to stoke yourself (or piss yourself off)?

"When do you know its time to call it quits?" Never. I realize most people
will disagree with me. Walt Disney and Colonel Saunders went to a thousand
banks before getting a loan. How soon would you have given up? When do you
quit trying to teach you child how to walk because it's not going as well as
you'd like? Jerry Seinfield jokes that it took him 20 years to become an
overnight success. I've seen the same thing with many hackers I know. If you
know deep down inside that your project is a winner, you must do whatever it
takes to get it to "walk". If you're not sure, then maybe you shouldn't have
started it in the first place. Only you can answer that one.

Hate to be like Oprah, but if things aren't going as quickly as you would have
liked, maybe you oughta read this:

[http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Secret-Getting-Absolutely-
Eve...](http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Secret-Getting-Absolutely-
Everything/dp/1589804864/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203690724&sr=8-1)

It's amazing what you can make happen if you follow the simple advice of this
book.

Collect data from everyone. Then go with your gut. Best advice I ever got.

~~~
h34t
I find this "never give up" stuff ridiculous. You'd never apply it to
investing money (eg/ "I bought this stock 1 year ago and I'm just going to
BELIEVE it into a higher price), so why would you apply it to investing your
skills and emotional commitment to some particular problem in some particular
market? Things change -- your market, your problem, your competitors, and
yourself -- all change. As circumstances change, so must your strategy.

Now, right until the very moment when you decide to do something else,
obviously you want to be working your tail off, and you want your team to have
enough confidence to be motivated. But there's a limit to the value of
cheerleading; it can only go so far. The only reason cheerleaders have
something to smile and dance about is because there's some hard-assed coach in
the background who takes reality into account when making decisions.

There's no reward for cowardice, or giving up on a good idea before giving
your best effort... but it's equally true that there's no honor in marching
stridently toward failure, on a path that you should have rationally abandoned
months ago.

Also, realize that there's a difference between giving up on your project, vs.
giving up on your self, your team, your professional aspirations, etc... the
former need not imply any of the latter.

~~~
edw519
I find responses containing the word "ridiculous" ridiculous. (Does that mean
this response is ridiculous?)

Changing strategy does not equal giving up.

Giving up prematurely is the single biggest impediment to failure in any
field. How do you know if it's premature? You don't. So you keep going.

FWIW, I hope my competitors think like you do. I'd be the only one left
standing.

~~~
h34t
Imagine you form a team of 5 people to build a new product -- for the sake of
argument, let's say you've decided to try to build a prototype of a Gubmarine,
a submarine made out of an advanced form of bubble-gum that can allow a
torpedo to pass right through you, and then instantly re-seal up.

Let's say that after 1 year, given changing competitive dynamics, it is the
rational conclusion of the team's leader that continuing to build that product
is no longer worth the opportunity cost of those 5 people's time based on an
up-to-date risk/reward calculation (perhaps Wrigley's has just produced a
prototype of their own Gubmarine that is 1.4 times better than yours and will
be ready for market 5 months sooner than you can hope to be, and they already
have a major advantage when it comes to distribution, which makes puts you at
a considerable disadvantage). Is it then not plausible that ceasing work on
your project is a good idea?

This stuff happens in big companies all the time -- they try something new,
and it doesn't work, so they cease efforts and try something else. That's a
"change in strategy," not "quitting," because the company as a whole
continues. But in a startup, it sometimes _is_ called "quitting," because you
often only _have_ one product, and your team is _specially designed_ just for
that one product (and incidentally, that what made you so efficient)... but it
also means that you can't just shuffle those people around to different
positions in the company; instead, sometimes, unfortunately, you quit. You
die.

Same people, same product, same/similar change in capital allocation -- but
for the big-company it's a "change in strategy," while for a startup, it's
"quitting."

Isn't this how startups work? What's wrong with condemning projects that
aren't earning their keep?

I am fully cognizant of the importance of having strong motivation and not
giving up when it's too soon, and how difficult it is to know when it's ready
to quit. And as long as I'm leading a project that's been decided to continue,
I'll have my eyes facing forward and I'll raise all the hell I can muster to
make things work, let me tell you. But the idea that it is _never_ good to
quit is, in my mind, still worth of the word "ridiculous," even if using that
word makes me sound impolite or foolish.

FWIW, I won't particularly mind if all my contemporaries think like _you_ do
-- that way many of them will never _become_ my competitors, as they'll be too
busy working on that great idea they had 3 years ago to notice that the world
changed in the meantime, and that they'd be better off giving up and starting
something different.

(Or maybe I hope they think like I do, but they'll misjudge and quit too
early. That's also a possibility. We're dealing in grays here, not B&W).

\-- Update --

Important to note, belatedly, that my talk about "giving up" etc. was in
response to the comment I replied to, not the original questioner (who doesn't
seem to be in such dire straits as someone who needs to hear what I've
written).

~~~
edw519
"someone who needs to hear what I've written"

Humbly spoken.

~~~
h34t
Some people need to hear that it's time to quit, because they're invested in
something that's a dead end. Just as you shouldn't throw good money after bad,
the same can be said for your time (and your team's time).

The important part isn't who said it (in this case it happened to be me), it's
the simple fact that sometimes, it's good advice. This was obviously not an
original idea of mine. In fact I doubt if I've said anything original at all
here; every time I think I've thought of something original, I seem to find
myself reading a book by someone who's already thought a couple steps ahead of
me a few weeks later (luckily, that's okay -- ideas need not be original to be
useful).

I might have said "someone who needs to face the realities of extricating
themselves out of a dead end project" instead of using the shorthand "what
I've written" to avoid such confusion. I was not intending to come across as
some know-it-all guru, and it is my fault if my words conveyed that impression
(and they well may have).

* Also note that the first half of my sentence said that the questioner was _not_ "somebody who needs to hear what I've written."

* I am assuming that you were being sarcastic with this last reply, which I felt was a safe assumption, but I can't really know, because I don't know you, and communicating via text is hell and we are prone to vastly overestimate our own comprehension of the other person's intent. My apologies if I screwed up.

~~~
fiaz
h34t,

Please read the second paragraph in this article:

[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1604891,00....](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1604891,00.html)

How different would the developed world be if he didn't persist in creating
his own "Gubmarine" and listened to his colleagues who told him to quit?

Success is the veil of hard work, difficulty, and a whole lotta pain. It's the
result of these things (and many more negative things people usually avoid
enduring) that we identify as "success". Rarely do we see the torment that the
successful go through in order to get where they are.

~~~
h34t
What an amazing story... this is the first I've read of it. It doesn't much to
do with my argument, though. Even though I haven't talked about this much
here, I personally believe that persistence is one of the most important
ingredients in doing _anything_ important. But it's not a holy grail to be
worshiped at all costs. You can't make a general rule called "never give up"
if "giving up" means ceasing the cooperation of a team for a particular
purpose. That would be a stupid rule; it would lead to all sorts of irrational
results. Imagine a VC firm that decided to never give up on any of its
startups, ever. That sort of policy would fly in the face of all general
knowledge about how the world of startups work.

Offering an anecdotal example is very problematic. What about all the other
folks who were working on making blue LEDs whose, inventions had no chance of
competing with Nakamura's? Because of the survivorship bias, we don't hear
about _them_ , yet they are just as important to understanding the dynamics of
reality. After his invention was released, are they supposed to continue on
the same path? Of course not. It doesn't mean they give up on life, or on
themselves, but it does mean that they give up on a mission that they had
committed themselves to for some period of time.

I'd _never_ say that a founder should listen blindly to colleagues, and
_certainly_ not to me(!), in deciding whether it's worth continuing. These are
complex decisions that need to be made carefully.

In short,

Success requires persistence, but persistence does not imply success. Most
stories of success will be stories of persistence, but not all stories of
persistence will lead to success.

And many stories of success will include "giving up" on previous
projects/companies before finding success in a new one.

~~~
fiaz
What is your argument then? I'm afraid that you are not communicating across
your argument effectively...I thought the article above was a pretty good
refutation of the post to which I replied.

It is an amazing story isn't it?

------
simianstyle
This is really odd, but i always watch one of those VH1 "fabulous life of
billionaire" TV specials whenever i feel like i'm losing momentum.

------
mooneater
1) This may be helpful on a small scale:

Like many, I love building new features, and don't love fixing bugs. But after
a while of not fixing bugs, I get this 'ewww, my code is icky' feeling, and
slowly start to hate my project.

That's when I know I need to spend a whole day fixing bugs. By the end of the
day, I feel differently. There's something about quality that's viceral, the
sheen of quality makes it easy to love my project again.

2) If you are really questioning the value of your project, ask: \- how could
I morph this into something else? \- What else could I use my existing network
of contacts for? \- What is an adjacent problem?

I recently went through this after feeling very trapped in my problem domain,
and it resulted in a great new insight and, I hope, and entirely new set of
products in an adjacent domain.

------
JohnN
Go to someone else's offices who are doing a startup. That will get your ass
in gear when you see how hard they are working.

~~~
aswanson
Better yet, go to someone's office who isn't; someone who has spent 10-20
years in a cube at megacorp and is still bitching about where he/she is in the
company. That will really get your ass in gear.

------
ubudesign
your questions imply that "things are not going well, so it's time to change
or call it quits"

First you need to stop asking such questions. These are just negative thoughts
that you have and because you don't want to say them, you put it in a question
form. but that still has the bad effect. so stop that right-a-way!

It is normal to feel this way after you finish any major part of your idea.
The best thing to do it to stop looking at it and wondering. go on a short
trip. do something fun. just don't be near your computer. after few days you
start seeing that you haven't really completed what you had originally thought
of. Doesn't mean that you need to change things or trash what you have. think
back to why you were exited about your idea in the first place. is what you
have now what you had pictured? maybe there are things missing that you can
add. if there are similar products out there don't worry at all. lots of
companies are based on the same basic ideas. what would make yours better or
different is the details of the main idea. Think of it as a painting. it is
done in layers. when you are painting you never erase things or change what
you had in mind. what you do is add more layers and with more details. It is
those details that make your idea unique and so will attract others that can
see and appreciate those details.

~~~
jmzachary
"First you need to stop asking such questions. These are just negative
thoughts that you have and because you don't want to say them, you put it in a
question form. but that still has the bad effect. so stop that right-a-way!"

That is very simple-minded and idealistic. One should look at their product
ideas and development objectively to determine if they are building something
people will use or not. Simply saying "build it and trust the process" is too
faith-based.

What does "things are not going well" mean? It could mean the implementation
of an idea doesn't work, the developer can't bring the idea to market, the
developed doesn't really want to do it, or the market is telling the developed
they don't want to use his/her product. It could mean other things. If any of
these conditions are met, then it's time to change or call it quits (hint:
quitting a doomed venture is not a failure.)

~~~
ubudesign
In general I may agree. if the idea was bad to begin with. I would have said
cut your loses and get out soon. But in this case it looks like there are some
other companies that have entered this market as well. So the problem isn't
realy that the idea is bad.

~~~
h34t
Just because a problem is important, doesn't imply that _your_ team is
properly positioned to succeed in the market. If _you_ don't have a good
chance of succeeding due to changing circumstances, there's no reason to
assume that it's worth the time and capital to continue.

These are really tough decisions. You can look at every successful company
and, thanks to the hindsight bias, see that success is almost always born
through persistence through difficulty. But there are plenty of examples where
fighting a losing battle _wasn't_ worth it. Or of people who tried, failed,
quit at the right time, tried something else, and then succeeded.

~~~
ubudesign
being persistant and/or quiting at the at the right time can both be correct.
in this particular case I didn't see the right questions being asked. I don't
think we should debate which path to take without knowing anything about the
situation. Thats why I originaly say to stop thinking negtive, stop for a few
days etc..

~~~
h34t
Ah. Well, I agree with that. Taking a break totally away from work,
especially, can be a great refresher. Instead of letting frustration imply
problems, it might just be signaling the need for some fresh perspective.

------
socratees
1\. When things go awfully wrong, still go ahead - but analyze what went wrong
where. Make note of what contributes to the failure, and how to fix it. Start
with why did the startup fail? Or why is the startup losing users? Is there
anything you can do to fix it? Is it feasible to fix it, and will it generate
profits? When will I reach a break-even point? etc. But if you believe in your
DREAM, then GO AHEAD.

2\. You can almost sense about the potential of your startup idea. If you
think there are ways which could improve you revenue, or media exposure ( in a
good way ), do it. Change your maket processes, partners so that you save
every single penny, but make sure you build a lot of good will along the way)

3\. If your startup is bleeding a lot of money, and when you don't SERIOUSly
see a future for your startup, QUIT. Of course, when the market doesn't need a
product, its value goes down. If you believe you product has the potential,
but isn't successful because of other factors (like lack of media exposure,
etc), go GET IT.

Hope I was clear... Thanks!!!

------
st3fan
"We have been working on a startup idea for almost an year now. The initial
days were fantastic, we were totally convinced we had hit upon a brilliant
idea, there was vacuum to be filled. We worked crazy hours, got a lot of stuff
done."

What a lot of startups don't get is that you can only push people to work
crazy hours a very limited amount of times.

If the startup is just fragging around and not working towards a real moment
where 'it happens' but still pushes people to give it all then the backlash
will be huge and people will become demotivated and start asking the questions
I see you asking.

It sounds like you guys need better management. Better management to get the
show on the road. Better management to give the startup a meaning. Better
management to motivate people.

Talk to them. They are probably struggling with the same issues.

(Or maybe you are management, dunno, you didn't really specify your position)

S.

------
fleaflicker
It's difficult to keep motivated when working on back-end improvements that
nobody will notice.

I'm always re-motivated by improving the UI. It makes a huge difference when
you can see the benefits of your work.

~~~
dreish
It's the other way around for me -- the more abstract the problem, the happier
I am.

Good thing there are both kinds of people, huh?

------
ALee
I can completely understand what you're talking about. We learned the bitter
lesson between trendspotting and trendsetting (Sam Altman's comments have
credence here too), and are almost back to square one. It hurts quite a lot
because we think of the time we wasted, and at times, I personally look back
wondering if we just didn't execute correctly instead of there not being a
market.

1) When things are going terribly? Dig down and talk with your partners in the
trenches. Get motivated (see other posts). Remember your users because they
are the ones who give the best advice about your product. At the earliest
stage, I think your community of users, fellow hackers, and partners are your
best way to respond. Know to admit that you don't know and you need guidance
from others. 2) Usually PG's comments about iterating apply here. You will
always be changing because your users will tell you to. Whatever is hindering
make smart and rapid changes to your product should obviously be changed.
Nevertheless, maybe you just haven't made the right product for a growing
market or your competition beat you, then... 3) Quit... I honestly don't know
when though. For us, it was when we I realized I had become Ahab. Except
instead of a great white whale, my partners pointed out it was a small beluga.
The market was not there for political gaming (outside of the slow-growth
educational sector) and if we wanted to really compete, we would need to be a
media company or provide a utility to gov professionals (e.g. vertical gov
search or customized gov aggregation). My partners and I talked over it and
they really never liked politics as a vertical (but they thought Moby Dick was
somewhere out there). One of my partners bristles at the mention of politics
and he sort of outright dismisses politics even as a backup for our YC app.

Sometimes the backlash to failure is hard to handle, so it's important that
everyone tries to focus on what's best for the company. We're still in it
because we dream of electric sheep and we really want to create value in the
world (even though we're still the quintessential guys in a house).

We now are back to square one, with no experience with the new bad-ass idea,
and we're in the middle of tying things up with our previous contracts and
licenses (which keeps us from just diving in), but it'll be okay even if you
do quit. The good thing is that since you're bootstrapped you didn't waste a
significant amount of money from someone else.

------
trekker7
In addition to all the advice from the other comments, read this essay:
<http://paulgraham.com/die.html>.

------
jmzachary
If 1\. your head and heart are not in it and you can't make them get back in,
or 2\. you didn't do a minimal level of marketing research to determine who
your competition is, who your target market is, and what your product's value
to the market is compared to the competition,

then maybe you should quit or regroup.

------
gscott
I have found my best motivation is other people being succesful at what I have
been working at for awhile it really chaps my hide so to speek. So I add more
features and integrate existing features bettter.

