
5-MeO-DMT Associated with Improvements in Depression, Anxiety - EndXA
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/newsroom/news-releases/fast-acting-psychedelic-associated-with-improvements-in-depressionanxiety
======
Moodles
I’ve taken psychedelics a few times. Sometimes, it’s just been mild and
giggling at colors and nature. Pleasant, but just kind of a fun drug.
Sometimes it’s been just extremely confusing and not at all fun, to the extent
that I’d forget my own name or what I’ve taken and basically just all
memories. It’s very frustrating to be in that state, constantly trying not to
fly away but not able to ground yourself. It’s a little disturbing, but not
horrific.

Sometimes though, it’s been a truly beautiful, enlightening experience. I
still think of it sometimes. It’s very difficult to really explain in words,
but it feels like kind of extreme empathy with all life. Buddhists would call
it going egoless. I just felt very at peace: we all live, we all die, and it’s
all okay. I’m not particularly religious or spiritual at all but that
experience really changed me a bit, I still think of it. It feels like a
shortcut to enlightenment that usually takes a lifetime of meditation, albeit
short-lasting. To really get it permanently, you probably have to meditate a
lot. It was amazing. It feels like life is in all these different forms, and
you just happen to be one variation of it, but you could easily be any other
living thing, so you just feel love and empathy for all life. And you know
it’s finite and you’re not afraid of death. I would still attempt to avoid
death, but I was just at peace with it if it was inevitable.

I think it’s a shame psychedelics get put in the same category as other drugs
in the law and in people’s heads. It’s not at all the same as heroin, meth,
cocaine. Not at all. I think on balance they should probably be legal, but I
can easily imagine someone with mental illness struggling with mushrooms so
I’m glad John Hopkins is doing these studies. It does seem like the
therapeutic affects are long-lasting, and it’s not like you can overdose on
them. The worst that can happen is you do something stupid while on them.
However if the dose is so strong, you probably wouldn’t be able to move much
anyway.

Edit: a lot of replies to this post seem to talk about LSD. I was actually
talking about mushrooms. I've only taken LSD once. Maybe the distinction
matters.

~~~
umvi
I'm a little skeptical of the claim that you can't overdose on them (overdose
in the sense of using them too much, not lethal overdose). Anecdotally I had a
friend in high school who was a brilliant programmer and started using LSD and
other psychedelics.

He started posting tons of strange, nonsensical pseudo-spiritual ramblings on
facebook and after a few years of this, it became clear he wasn't even the
same person anymore - the drugs permanently changed him.

To be fair I don't know if he was using other drugs in conjunction with
psychedelics but my (possibly ignorant) gut feeling is to be wary of
implications of harmlessness when it comes to any drug.

~~~
ericsoderstrom
Agreed. I think HN in general is too quick to dismiss the potential dangers of
psychedelics. I know at least a couple people who have essentially lost their
minds as a result of frequent psychedelic use. It's pretty terrifying to see
someone slowly become more paranoid delusional and incoherent when they once
were an intelligent and charismatic friend.

~~~
alexandercrohde
Agreed. I had a friend in high-school who was very smart, 2-years ahead in
math, well-spoken and thoughtful.

After some amount of different hallucinogens he became lastingly weird. He
would start saying things about "divine geometry" and "seeing yellow auras"
when he closed his eyes and became a big believer in all sorts of supernatural
(e.g. horoscopes)

He did come back to something not too far from normalcy maybe 8 years later,
last time I heard from him.

~~~
aarpmcgee
It's true that these substances can change you. But then it is worth asking,
who are _you_? And is that anything worth holding on to? And what is normalcy,
and what exactly is that worth?

~~~
apk-d
I feel like you're trying to derail the discussion by asking random, seemingly
unanswerable questions.

Normality is a broad but pretty well-researched subject and i think it's safe
to say, belief in horoscopes and other unsubstantiated supernatural phenomena
ain't it.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normality_(behavior)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normality_\(behavior\))

~~~
jonfw
To say that psychedellics cause a deviation from normalcy would be correct.
But if you're making that out to be a problem, than you have to support why
normalcy is good and deviation from that is bad.

~~~
alexandercrohde
Totally fair. We shouldn't just assume that "weirdness" is bad because there's
a social norm against it.

But I for one feel everybody around me finds "weirdness" unbecoming. I find it
to be an inescapable reality that people will care about you less and not want
to get you for any manner of tiny deviation (e.g. as an extreme example, just
if you said "beep" outloud every 10 minutes this would be reason enough for I
think half of the population or more to not want to associate with you)

In my friends case though, I think what scared me the most was he became very
unclear/metaphorical in speaking about even basic topics and didn't seem to
realize how much trouble people had understanding him.

~~~
marssaxman
Sounds like a person in the grip of a big idea, wrapped up in their own
thinking. That can be a pain to deal with but it tends to be self-correcting.
If someone stops communicating with people effectively, others will withdraw,
and that isolation eventually causes pain. Eventually the person who's off in
their head will start to notice their needs are not being met, and as they
search for a way to return to earth to get what they need, they'll have to do
the work themselves to understand others and present their new ideas in a
coherent and sensible way. Pulling away from a friend who's talking nonsense
can sometimes be the most loving thing to do.

------
namero999
Another fast-acting psychedelic is Salvia Divinorum. Salvinorin-A is a one-of-
a-kind compound, different from all the other known psychedelic/entheogens
both for its structure (which allowed it to stay legal for longer) as well as
for its "dysphoric" effect. The experience can be as intense as something like
this can be. Completely dissociative, and scary as well.

Despite all of this though, I can't overstate the beneficial effects that a
dozen of experiences spread across a decade had on me. From a grumpy loner, to
a compassionate human being who can't get angry anymore (and no, I'm not
apathic), the absolutely REAL experience of losing all of this, made me pretty
much fall in love with life, and at the same time made me more light-hearted
with it. It's hard to explain, but once you experience something as real as
the only real thing you thought there was (life), you start questioning it
quite a lot and to take it a bit less seriously.

Maybe I simply grew up. But when I think of this change, these experiences are
the first thing that comes to mind.

Please be responsible and careful with these experiences. You don't want to
waste a good opportunity for growth.

~~~
oldstrangers
Really odd to see you promoting Salvia, one of the psychedelics with the worst
(and deserved) reputations imaginable. I know you give you passing warning of
it being "scary as hell", but that's probably not a strong enough of a
warning.

[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yvqkvb/why-is-salvia-
so-u...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yvqkvb/why-is-salvia-so-uniquely-
terrifying-1015)

~~~
pantalaimon
I don't know, I always found it to be an interesting experience too. The
effects are very much unlike other psychedelics indeed and I can see how they
can be terrifying for some - it might feel as if your body is being controlled
by another entity and you are just an observer, watching.

The shift in perception can be pretty dramatic too!

This is probably depending on the dose. I've never tried more than 20x extract
mixed with leaves. There are much stronger concentrate, I can see how those
would be terrifying if you didn't know what to expect.

------
Cynddl
> This questionnaire included a series of questions about whether respondents
> had a specific psychiatric condition, including depression or anxiety
> (categorical response options: yes, no, unsure), and whether their
> conditions had changed (categorical response options: better, stayed the
> same, worsened) after 5-MeO-DMT use.

This is a self-reported study. Asking whether a substance or drug improved
someone condition will often result in positive answers, whether or not it was
therapeutically useful.

In the sample, more than 90% of individuals had already used 5-MeO-DMT, 41%
had depression, 48% with anxiety. 79% reported that “their anxiety was better
following 5-MeO-DMT use”. This is indeed not a balanced sample, and self-
reports provide very weak results compared to a proper double-blind study.
While doing a double-blind study on such substances might be challenging,
there are definitely tools and environments that can help correctly measure
the true effect of a substance on depression on anxiety.

I don't see how this study proves anything.

------
virtualwhys
5-Meo-DMT, the non-psychedelic psychedelic. Void of visuals, full of infinity.

Even before your head hits the pillow, already, you know. No time for, "am I
ready?", only, "there's no going back". It's not a stretch to call it the the
king of psychedelics.

p.s. depending on nothing, isn't that the ultimate way? While it may be
interesting to immediately encounter the "truth", a painting of a rice cake
doesn't satisfy hunger (paraphrasing, iirc, Eihei Dogen).

------
dawhizkid
As soon as I can I will invest all my money in companies productizing
therapeutic psychedelics...

~~~
50656E6973
It's sure to be a money loser compared to other addictive psychiatric drugs
which are taken daily as a maintenance to the problem. Drugs like DMT should
only be taken once in a blue moon, are not addictive, and are extremely cheap
to produce.

~~~
ddorian43
Which psychiatric drug is addictive ?

~~~
tonyarkles
My guess is that they're referring to the part where you can't just stop
taking them cold turkey without a spectrum of bad things happening to you.
It's a slow slow taper process.

~~~
ddorian43
That's not addicting. And kinda makes sense to tapper off (with many types of
drugs).

~~~
tonyarkles
No, I agree. I think "physical dependence" would be a much better word. People
don't keep taking Zoloft because they want the next hit.

~~~
penagwin
Funny you say this, because I moved, I've been out of my SNRI, and only took
two in the last seven days. Last night I felt like a drug addict, I _need_ to
take it or I'll have withdrawals.

The sucky part is the withdrawals won't go away for several days at least....

~~~
ddorian43
If it's an instant-release, you can lower the dose little by little.

~~~
penagwin
I mean more so that now that I'm back on my medicine, it's going to be a bit
before I'm back at it's full effect.

------
marssaxman
I have a friend who experienced 5-MeO-DMT in this fashion three times. In each
case he reported that it was a powerfully overwhelming ecstatic experience; it
felt like contact with the divine. A key feature of the experience was that
his ability to control the trip was completely overwhelmed; it is an
experience of surrender. His depression improved because he gained a temporary
perspective on the world which was utterly suffused with love and light; after
it faded, he still remembered what it had felt like, and knowing that it was
possible to see the same world in such different ways based on nothing but a
chemical state change in the brain has made it possible for him to stop taking
his own current state of mind so seriously. It is just one of many possible
ways of experiencing the world, after all.

~~~
strychn9ne9
I think he experienced a form of "ego death". My understanding is that it
works on varying levels for some but not all.

Thanks for sharing and I'm glad to hear it's worked so well for him.

------
AdmiralAsshat
Did the study clarify whether the effects were long-lasting, or were the
psychedelic drugs simply a momentary distraction?

~~~
temp129838
From my experience, especially with psilocybin (shrooms), the main benefit is
not hallocinogenic at all (at a ~2g or so dose) but that it has the effect of
basically _forcing_ you to confront all the emotional pain that you bury and
ignore. I always end up laugh-crying and experiencing revelations about
myself, my relationship etc that I simply don't have otherwise. I can see how
effective it can be when taken while in therapy because you basically force
yourself to open up. It's a truth serum, of sorts.

I have not tried DMT but my understanding of ayahuasca (active ingredient is
DMT) retreats in places like Peru is that it's like "10 years of therapy in a
week."

~~~
wutbrodo
Your first paragraph is exactly how I describe it to people. I'm a big
proponent of LSD, but only to those that I think are intelligent enough to
make a considered choice[1], and always with caveat that it involves a
temporary lapse in your ability to shove things down into your subconscious
that you'd rather not deal with. The implication is that if you feel like
you're not currently ready to throw open that door and take an honest look at
your issues, then it's likely not yet for you.

[1] I know this is unavoidably derisive, but I mean this in the most mundane
way possible. Some people I know can read the literature & integrate other
sources of data (including anecdotal data and cautious experimentation) and
come out with a best-effort understanding of the science that's far superior
to the blunter recommendations and laws that are the start and end of most
people's investigations. The latter play an important role, since most people
just don't have the critical thinking or epistemological skills to integrate a
big messy pile of data saying contradictory things with different types and
quality of source. This goes for everything from psychedelics to nutrition to
interpreting your blood test results.

------
hirundo
> Righteous outrage isn't just an addictive drug, it's a hallucinogen. -
> Elijah William Eby

Although equating outrage with a drug is a metaphor it seems to me to be a
strong one. No doubt its effects are mediated by neurotransmitters as are
directly chemical hallucinogens. Yet outrage seems to generally enhance
depression and anxiety.

Maybe that's because hallucinations caused by outrage feel more like simple
perceptions of reality, and it's depressing that reality is so outrageous.
Whereas chemically induced hallucinations can more easily be discounted.

------
Alex3917
This is an interesting survey result, but given that 5-MeO-DMT can cause
sudden cardiac arrest I doubt this will ever go to clinical trials.

~~~
loceng
Citation? Curious also how this compares to other classes of medications.

~~~
Alex3917
James Oroc talks about it in his book / interviews. There are a couple
churches that use 5-MeO-DMT as a sacrament, but I think they have a
defibrillator and someone with medical training on hand. I don't think it's
excessively dangerous if you have good cardiovascular fitness and are able to
accurately dose it, but it's still substantially more dangerous than something
like DMT.

There is/was a church called Temple of Awakening Divinity (TOAD), and there
are some interviews with the founder online.

~~~
collyw
What churches use this? As an (open minded) atheist it annoys me that
religious groups get privileges over the rest of us, (when most of the time
these religions seems to amount to a lack of critical thinking and
objectivity).

I would be interested in trying something like this, but the likely means
would seem to be likely criminal and unsupervised.

(Saying that I live in Spain and have seen some something like "bufo" toad
stuff advertised alongside ayahuasca in retreats with a bit of new age crap
thrown in for good measure. As an open minded atheist I would like to
experience something like that without any belief based religious stuff
attached). In my own country it would most definitely be illegal.

~~~
loceng
Santo Daime is one I know of. High probability if you live in a large
population centre there will be one or more Daime churches in your area.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Daime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Daime)

As far as I know most places use conditional licences that must be renewed
every 2 years, it's in part to make sure those practicing are good and safe
stewards/leaders.

Native American groups also have the right in different places, where the
general population doesn't.

You can attend Santo Daime works without being religious, and as a guest to
the church.

When thinking about religion I find it best to realize there's such a wide
distribution of beliefs and practices, and a difference between mainstream
religion or "TV religion" vs. other.

------
mruts
I’ve taken 5-meo-dmt several times it’s probably the most powerful and
uncomfortable psychedelic I’ve ever tried (and I’ve tried just about
everything). Makes you feel like you are dying, would not recommend.

------
aaaaaaaaaaab
Contact: dr. Elf Machine MD

~~~
cpeterso
See [https://non-aliencreatures.fandom.com/wiki/Machine_Elf](https://non-
aliencreatures.fandom.com/wiki/Machine_Elf)

------
simonsaidit
Said this for years nothing is as powerfull as dmt/hamalas .. I’ve seen a
dusin times how it changed the life of someone myself included with a single
trip you could live on it for years.

------
tayo42
Is there significance to the 5-meo-dmt? It seems close to dmt, 4-ho-dmt, and
some of the research chems like 4-aco-dmt?

~~~
mirceal
it’s close to dmt in the sense that part of it’s structure is DMT. as far as
effects, if you believe the literature: dmt is like sailing into the sunset
and 5meo is like stapping yourself to a rocket. both give you something, but
radically different

~~~
simonsaidit
Both have a Quick onset... id say a rocket. With changa eg + hamalas its more
slow onset but more powerfull. Someone described 5-meo-dmt to me as
power/maskoline and changa as love/feminine and i have the same feeling about
it.

------
b1gtuna
So where can I obtain this? Legally?

~~~
simonsaidit
Dunno but its little sister dmt is easily made by yourself and to me less
scary/risky with the same benefits. You Can order root bark legally and
extract it in your kitchen.

------
DanBC
This means very little until we have all the research available, and until
we've run a good meta-analysis.

When Prozac was introduced we had claims that it was a miracle drug, and made
people "better than well", and that current drug licencing laws were unjust
because you could only get prozac if you had depression and this was denying
access to it for the general population.

Now we know that it's a somewhat useful medication for some people, especially
when provided with therapy and other psycho-social interventions, but it is
very far from the miraculous claims.

tldr claims of efficacy for depression treatment are either outright bullshit
or oversold.

