
The Disappearing American Grad Student - lnguyen
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/03/education/edlife/american-graduate-student-stem.html
======
tyoma
The monetary value proposition of grad school simply isn't very good if you're
a US citizen. There is non-monetary value (like advancing human knowledge)
that makes grad school worth it for some, but the pay is low.

Imagine you just graduated from a quality undergrad with high grades and
strong recommendations from your professors. Maybe you had an internship or
two or spent a summer doing research. Maybe you even have authorship on a
published paper as an undergrad. You could be a very strong grad school
candidate. Or you could just get a corporate job right out of undergrad.

Lets look at the options.

Option 1: You go to grad school and spend ~6 years working extremely long
hours at nearly minimum wage with no benefits.

Option 2: You start at ~100K USD/year with benefits working for Big
Tech/Finance/Big Oil/Pharma/Defense/etc. In those ~6 years you likely work
fewer hours than a grad student. You have the free time to meet someone and
the income to start a family.

Most people will chose Option 2. The two main types of people who chose Option
1 are those who are passionate about learning and advancing human knowledge
and those who want a career where a PhD is required.

If instead you're a citizen of "India, China, Korea, Turkey and other foreign
countries" (quoted from the article) then the calculus is completely
different. Not only do you get to advance human knowledge, but you get to live
and work (as a TA or RA) in the US for ~6 years. After graduation you have a
good chance of landing a well paying job for a US-based firm or becoming a
professor or research scientist.

~~~
drewg123
There's also option 1.5: You start at a grad school in a PhD program (so that
you have support and do not pile up debt), and you leave with a Masters as
quickly as you can.

I managed to get my MS in CS back in the early 90s in one calendar year. I had
full support via a fellowship since I was one of the top students, so I did
not have to be an RA or TA, and could take additional classes. I finished all
but my MS Thesis requirement in 2 semesters and owed nothing thanks to the
fellowship. I then decided I was leaving with an MS, and paid for my MS Thesis
credits over the summer.

This cost me only a year, and it happened immediately after undergrad when I
was really good at studying anyhow. I am far enough into my career to realize
that it strengthened my resume early on, and I think it has really helped my
long-term career earnings.

The funny thing is that I didn't intend to be so mercenary. My original intent
was to get my requirements out the way early to leave more time for research
the second year. I realized part-way through the year that I was not as
enamored with the topic that I wanted to study as I thought I was, and I
hadn't hit it off with the only logical choice for an advisor in that topic,
so I wanted to get out something totally different.

~~~
Delmania
> I managed to get my MS in CS back in the early 90s in one calendar year.

I had a similar path, RIT has (or had) a dual degree program for Computer
Science that only added a year to the regular undergrad program. Rather than
take free electives, you swapped in the additional master's course you needed
and all your undergrad classes became master's level courses (i.e. more work).
I was suffering from depression at the time, so it took me a year to do my
master's project (it's on Github, and it's not hard to find me there).

I thought about going back for my PhD, but then realized the cost wasn't worth
it.

> The funny thing is that I didn't intend to be so mercenary.

I was and still am. I got my degree from the perspective it would help me get
more money. I strongly believe the only thing my job is for is money.

~~~
yebyen
Shout out for RIT!

I actually didn't know there really was a PhD program in Computer Science. I
just found this page with a link to list of dissertation defenses[1] that I
have never seen before; historically, I've always thought it was a big joke
because of this page with the overview[2] link that just recurses on itself
and just displays a different image... (go ahead, don't you want to read the
overview? Just click again...)

TIL that RIT has actually given out a few PhDs in Computer Science! [3] Of
course I feel like I earned a PhD by spending seven years there just to get my
bachelor's degree.

[1]: [https://www.cs.rit.edu/phd-computing-and-information-
science...](https://www.cs.rit.edu/phd-computing-and-information-sciences)

[2]:
[https://www.rit.edu/gccis/computingsecurity/academics/phd/ov...](https://www.rit.edu/gccis/computingsecurity/academics/phd/overview)

[3]: [https://www.cs.rit.edu/recent-phd-dissertations-advised-
cs-f...](https://www.cs.rit.edu/recent-phd-dissertations-advised-cs-faculty)

------
kristopolous
They make a single mention of what could be a significant contributing factor;
student debt. A quick google search for India and China show that many of
their top public universities charge ~$300 and ~$800/year while UC Berkeley is
over $14,000.

After 4 years, with on-campus housing the first year, the Berkeley student
owes about $72,000 while the Indian student owes $1,200.

As far as the income differences between the countries, the average Indian
saves 31.4% [1] of an average $6,490/yr which means $2,037. While in the US
it's 5.7% [2] of $58,030 which means $3,307.

So stated another way, the Indian education costs 0yr/7mon of average savings
while the US one costs 21yr/9mon. By the time the American child has their
bachelors, the American parents are already broke while the Indian parent's
savings reserves haven't been depleted - a 2 year graduate program is
something they still have the cash for.

[1] [https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-average-savings-rate-in-
In...](https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-average-savings-rate-in-India-How-
much-should-a-person-save-if-he-earns-1-lakh-month-or-10-lakh-month)

[2] [https://www.fool.com/saving/2016/10/03/heres-the-average-
ame...](https://www.fool.com/saving/2016/10/03/heres-the-average-americans-
savings-rate.aspx)

~~~
aaron-lebo
Not sure you can compare them so directly. $800 is an unobtainable sum (?) for
1 billion Chinese/Indians. I'd also wonder about the difference in quality
between UC Berkeley and a lot of those colleges. They are probably very good
but US colleges tend to dominate world rankings (partially why everyone goes
to them). If outsiders are willing to spend money in your schools, what
happens to prices?

I'm also unsure about the comparison between averages (500 billion
impoverished + 500 billion wealthy makes for an uninformative average), or
savings rate. If US families save less (for cultural reasons or they don't
need to), it's not relevant. Or it might be late.

~~~
meric
$800 is about the monthly salary for so many Chinese I’m finding it hard to
think it is unobtainable.

~~~
gozur88
That's more than double the median Chinese wage.

Granted, that's still a lot of people in absolute terms.

~~~
trying_to_code
[https://www.google.ca/search?q=china+gdp+per+capita&ie=utf-8...](https://www.google.ca/search?q=china+gdp+per+capita&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=ir_9WdyKDqqCjwTbgrnACw)

In 2016,the average Chinese GDP per capita is 8,123.18 US dollars, it is
almost as much as Russia ($8,748.18) or Mexico ($8.201.31). This really
surprised me.

~~~
gozur88
Yes, but that's because there are a few people who are extraordinarily
wealthy. The median is a better measure of what people make.

------
noobermin
The article misses something I think makes part of it: grad school is a ticket
to establishing some level of connection in the US for foreigners, and some
use it as a spring board to getting a job in the US. They need this because a
graduate degree actually is losing its value given the poor job market for
PhDs. The prospects of a job after graduate school are diminishing the closer
you get to a PhD; it just makes less sense to go to grad school when you can
get good jobs with just a BS in CS for example...unless there is something
else to make the ROI better.

Finally, the stats mentioned are merely fractions, not overall numbers. What
could merely be happening is the growth is coming from international students,
not that less Americans are headed to grad school.

~~~
surfmike
Foreigners who went to grad school are very heavily represented in Silicon
Valley. Perhaps going all the way for a PhD is not worth it (debatable, some
of my CS PhD friends have done incredibly well) but a Masters is definitely a
strong path to success.

~~~
khuey
The extra H1-B spots for advanced degree holders may have something to do with
that.

~~~
tomaha
Or the $500k+ you can earn. Most of the people in that region have at least a
masters degree and likely more.

~~~
delphinius81
If you focus on computer vision / machine learning at least

~~~
jonathankoren
The vast majority of these people are not pulling home $500k per year
salaries, or even total comp.

------
ironchef253
A few things:

Grad students from foreign countries are not crippled with debt. They get
affordable educations and can afford to be in school longer in America.
Comparable American students have been consumed by debt and must get real jobs
to pay it off.

If undergrads were paying $7K / year for those degrees instead of $50k, things
would be very different.

Second, universities who are rich from plundering their undergrads by way of
massive administrative overhead resulting in skyrocketing loans...grad
students are a source of labor for the schools at low cost.

By importing foreign students who are desperate and cheap, these universities
are able to continue adding administrative bloat while exploiting foreign
workers for the research tasks they once gave to their American
contemporaries.

You want American grad students? Reform the loan situation, stop allowing
universities to have their cake and eat it too. If they charge astronomical
fees, they shouldn’t get to outsource that work to foreign students and then
whine about not having more Americans.

~~~
screye
$100k for grad school is not affordable for an Asian when annual family income
is $5-10k and interest rates on loans are 15%.

~~~
dingo_bat
Those families are probably not the ones sending their kids. Only those who
can afford it go.

------
dalbasal
There’s been lots of interest here in grad school articles recently,
especially where it is a relatively bad deal or career decision. They’re all
related somehow, but I think this is probably more about immigrant/native
dynamics than anything else.

In the late 80s, my Mum did a PHD in the US and we lived there for 5 years.
Many of her friends were foreign grad students. Others, Texan academics.

Migration via academia has always been a good option. There are special visas.
Sometimes financial support. A foreign students application form. More
importantly, there’s a structured and welcoming subculture you join by
default. You will have a place in university society.

I’m reminded of a provocative (to me) Tyler Cowen bit about formal dress and
class mobility. When culture (corporate culture in that case) is formalised,
it is easier for outsider to adopt and participate in. You can buy a good
suit. You can’t easily adopt ways of speaking, casual fashion, and such.
They’re too subtle for outsiders. Cultural signals are still important, but
the subtle ones are more exclusive because they are subtle.

Anyway, something similar is probably happening here. Academia is formal. It’s
meritocracy is formalised. You can talk funny and think funny, but you’re
still a PHD candidate, professor or whatnot. You can access that “social
capital” to put it in annoying modern terms.

Like tyoma suggests in this thread, natives have more options to choose from.

There are other reasons, of course. I suspect this is one of the top ones.

------
tanilama
Grad school for Americans is not a good investment, except maybe MBA, but that
should belong to its own category. Often too short, less than 2 years, not
really enough time for decent research, yet expensive, the chance of getting
sponsorship is slim.

Grad school in US, thus is made for foreign students to get their foot on this
country. It has a few attractions: It is short. Cost less than Bachelor
Degree. It offers a chance to get familiar with the culture . Count as
advanced degree so bigger chance to land a H1-B visa under condition you have
a job offer. And most importantly, American Universities know this. They
specifically design the programs to target foreigners, and made a shit load of
money out of it.

~~~
aaron-lebo
If you look at it from a purely economics perspective, sure. But many grad
programs are not that expensive. It's hard to overestimate how valuable it is
to get the grad class experience (much smaller classes, direct interaction and
discussion with world experts in their fields, and really interesting
discussions/viewpoints due to those foreign students). There's no learning
experience quite like it.

~~~
tanilama
Those programs, with the mentioned quality would not be cheap. But that might
be true for US citizens, because usually the school charges less from them. I
think I missed somewhat the definition of the grad school here. Majority of
the grad students come here for Masters not PhDs, and for the former, the
stuff you mentioned, like smaller classes, interaction with professors cannot
really be taken for granted, and from my anecdotal experience, it is not true.

~~~
aaron-lebo
The stuff I mentioned was true for both masters students and PhDs (they were
in the same classes), but it may vary by field.

~~~
chrisseaton
PhD students don’t take ‘classes’ - they do their own independent research.
It’s a research degree. If someone else can teach you a class on it then it’s
clearly not cutting edge enough to do a PhD on!

~~~
aaron-lebo
Class hours are a substantial requirement of many phd programs. You can't do
independent research without knowing what's come before. :)

~~~
chrisseaton
You learn about what's come before by reading papers and reproducing
experiments.

I can't imagine how a class for PhD students works - everyone has such focused
research topics that how can you find something relevant to teach to more than
one person at a time?

When I did my PhD on optimising dynamic programming languages I would guess
there were maybe ten other students in the entire world doing something
vaguely similar at the same time. How do you do a class for that in one
institution?

~~~
eternauta3k
It's a fact that PhD students do a few courses, at least in Physics and
Electronics.

The students I've met found few classes related to their research. So they
signed up for whatever sounded good.

~~~
haeffin
It varies a lot by country and field (if they do classes or not). I didn't
have to do classes when I did my PhD.

------
saboot
I know in a few graduate medical labs international students are seen as a big
labor plus. No family, no friends, in a foreign environment, under a lot of
pressure to succeed. You can pretty much ask them to work 80+ hour weeks
easily. Americans have family, friends, marriages, maybe children! It's not
this way in a majority of labs, but I definitely have friends in labs just
like this.

Also I agree with the points many others have made, debt is a major factor. I
got a undergrad stem degree at a UC and only went back to great school after
working for three years and paying that debt off.

Plus: I'm enjoying the research.

Negative: I'm the oldest student and halving my salary for several years is
not a great experience!

------
netheril96
I see the chance to draw lottery twice in H1B visa mentioned, but a more
important benefit is the OPT visa. Any STEM graduates from an American school
can apply for this visa, which lasts for about two years. During this two
years you can work and draw the lotteries repeatedly.

For some of us, the major value proposition of a MS degree in US is not its
teaching, but the gateway to US employment market. Those luckily born in the
US doesn’t need to spend time and money on such privileges.

------
ll931110
FYI, many top schools (MIT, Harvard, etc.) have explicit quota on how many
international undergrads are admitted per year (at MIT it's about 120
students, or 10 percent of undergrads). There is no such limit at grad level,
since the money typically comes from research groups and grants, so the
limiting factor is really the research group's budget.

~~~
yuvalmer
I didn't know about this quota, but it doesn't really matter. The main point,
which the article didn't mention, is that being an undergrad international
student is far more difficult. First, the high schools exams can be different
and students might not be eligible to apply. Then there's tuition cost. How
many Chinese and Indians can afford ~40K/year not including room and other
expenses? Foreign students cannot apply for scholarship.

It makes much more sense to study almost for free in India/China/Finland/etc.
and then do a GRE and apply to grad school in the US. PhD students don't need
to pay tuition and even get a monthly stipend. Also many MS students get some
sort of scholarship (but not all).

~~~
ll931110
Check UT Austin, they admit a ton of international students every year.
Undoubtedly UT Austin is a decent school, but it also milks a lot of money
from international students.

[https://utexas.app.box.com/v/2016report](https://utexas.app.box.com/v/2016report)

There are two parts in your point. One, the exam. SAT/high school grade is
basically a joke for India/China students, which can send a town of 2400 kids.
Spending one or two years preparing and you can pass whatever exam set, SAT or
ACT or anything. Two, the tuition fee. You clearly underestimate the financial
ability of wealthy Asian families, and I had talked to people who pay the
entire tuition fee (200k+) for kids to study in four years. Of course not
everyone can pay that, but schools also offer partial scholarship (and thus
it's quite common for students to come with 50 or 75 percent scholarship).

------
sonabinu
I went to pretty good school in India for my undergrad and grad. It was not
sufficiently challenging. I did another masters in the US from a middle tier
University. I found it more challenging and engaging. I've been motivated to
continue learning and taking class (both via MOOCs and on prem) when necessary
to learn new concepts. I love the passion here, the library system and the
access to star performances and innovators via meet ups and conferences.

------
ralusek
Do we have any numbers of how many of these foreign individuals stay in the
country after graduation? When you think about how immigration works,
immigrants are very disproportionately likely to be high-performing
individuals, given the criteria for them to enter the country. If they stay in
the country to contribute to the economy after graduation, then all I can say
is that I'm glad they still think that this is a desirable country to come to.

~~~
gervase
I can't speak to overall statistical numbers, but of the 75+ international
graduate students that I've spoken to, I would estimate at least 85% plan to
stay in the U.S.

I find this particularly surprising given that their status is essentially
that of indentured servants; their advisors can deport them at any time with
only 14 days of notice. This one-way power dynamic can produce cruel, callous
treatment and merciless working hours, both of which I've observed first-hand.
And yet, these same professors will turn around and collaborate politely and
respectfully with American students (assuming that they will take on American
students in their labs; many will not!).

It's really very depressing.

~~~
rdtsc
My friend quit his postdoc with a prestigious researcher in his field after
witnessing the abuse the international students in the same group were
subjected to.

~~~
c517402
My friend stopped graduate school at a MS and didn’t pursue a PhD because all
the American grad students were forced to take teaching assistantships while
the foreign grad students were given research assistantships.

------
chmaynard
The hidden assumption in the article and most of the comments I see is that
Americans are __not __applying to these graduate schools. It 's also possible
that Americans __are __applying, but the international students are simply
much better qualified and are therefore admitted in greater proportion.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
My stepfather has done PhD admissions for his department for many years. Most
of their applications don't come from Americans, _and_ some portion of foreign
undergrad programs are _sometimes_ more rigorous. They basically implement
affirmative action, almost, for the Americans who apply.

------
dangjc
Would grad schools recruit more Americans if

a) their international intake was capped

b) they were forced to offer more livable stipends

c) the odds to get tenure track increased?

Grad school is a pretty bad deal for US citizens, and so much of that is the
highly pyramidal structure of over hiring cheap grad students as below market
labor for a shrinking pool of tenured professors.

------
mysterypie
> _In the fall of 2015, about 55 percent of all graduate students in
> mathematics, computer sciences and engineering were from abroad. The dearth
> of Americans is even more pronounced in hot STEM fields: About 64 percent of
> doctoral candidates and almost 68 percent in master’s programs last year
> were international students._

The NYT is trying to vaguely suggest that Americans are being crowded out by
foreigners and that Americans can't get advanced degrees because foreigners
take all the spots.

But it could be BOTH true that foreigners make up the majority and that
Americans do get many more advanced degrees than in the past -- because
university education has expanded greatly in the last few decades.

For sake of example: Suppose in 1950, there was 100,000 advanced degrees
awarded in the US per year and they were all Americans. Suppose today that
there are 1,000,000 advanced degrees of which 45% are Americans (and 55%
foreigners). In my contrived example, it's still true that foreigners make up
the majority, but the number of Americans getting advanced degrees has jumped
from 100,000 to 450,000.

I don't know if I'm right about this, but just saying that the NYT hasn't
proved their point.

~~~
greeneggs
> The NYT is trying to vaguely suggest that Americans are being crowded out by
> foreigners and that Americans can't get advanced degrees because foreigners
> take all the spots.

No, the article never suggests this, that sounds like your own bias.

First you set up a strawman---and then you don't even bother knocking it down!
You don't need to make up numbers "for sake of example." All this is
information is available, just Google it.

Finally, it is not "the NYT" making an argument. The author is Nick Wingfield,
it says so right there on top.

------
Spooky23
Grad school is an immigration pathway these days that in my experience brings
zero benefit to most jobs.

Where it matters, you see a more normal/typical level of diversity.

For most things tech, it’s meaningless. I literally give it zero weight for
hiring unless the candidate had a non-qualifying bachelors degree, needed a
couple of years of experience, or they went to a foreign school for undergrad
and a US grad school (less paperwork).

------
jdlyga
I'm an American, and I just started graduate school. Georgia Tech OMSCS. Very
nice program.

~~~
ajdlinux
It's interesting - when OMSCS started, there was so much speculation that it
would be flooded with overseas students who would use it to get a cheap US
degree that would ultimately help them to migrate.

Instead, OMSCS actually has a far, far _higher_ proportion of American
students than GATech's on-campus MSCS program...

~~~
jordanb
If you're an international student, a physical presence in the US is one of
the things you're buying with your grad school tuition.

Conversely American grad school attendees are mostly career switchers who
already have an established life in a place that's probably not Atlanta.

------
flossball
I remember 20 some years ago... that I had asked a few grad students about
their GPA and GRE scores before applying. I remember having a decent
recommendation, gpa .5 higher than a couple of guys, and OK GRE. Didn't get
into the masters program. As a supposedly privileged white guy, I think there
is much more to it. I think the schools prefer foreign students as they will
take the shit pay and long hours much like H1B slavery.

------
nova22033
It's about to get worse if the new GOP tax plan passes. It would tax tuition
waivers.

[https://twitter.com/ClausWilke/status/926454752136892416](https://twitter.com/ClausWilke/status/926454752136892416)

------
tmoot
I'm a frustrated grad student in STEM. I posted here a few days ago
crowdsourcing for career advice on what to do next:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15610675](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15610675)

Thanks.

------
zod50
I think there are two reasons why you would see a spike in internationals in a
graduate cohort and their number being less in an undergraduate class:

1) experience. most of the international students mentioned in the article
from India, China, Turkey, Korea want to have that experience of going to a
school in a different country, meeting students from around the globe, listen
to lectures and work with people from different background and skills, I think
this is something you would certainly lack if you choose to go to grad school
in the same geography you got your undergraduate education. Think about this
for an American student, who is not so motivated to go to grad school because
environment wise it is not going to be a whole lot different than the
professors you had for your undergrad class. I'm curious to see numbers for
American undergrads who have gone to Europe or Japan to get their graduate
degrees for the experience, this might actually be skewed because half the
students here in America gets that experience through study abroad programs.

2) cost. the article says there is a very small number of undergraduate
internationals compared to graduate student population, it comes down to cost.
if you were coming from India, China or the other foreign countries mentioned
in the article money wise it would be very expensive for you to pay for 4
years of undergraduate degree compared to 2 years of masters, PhD can be an
outlier here, but it has its own benefits. so if you can get an undergraduate
degree without causing a dent in your bank account and if you are almost
certain that you will eventually go get a masters degree in another country,
budget wise that's the most smart thing to do. by the time you are done with
your undergrad you'd have a good school experience to go to another country,
blend in, and go through school. The reason I mentioned about PhD being an
outlier is, with a doctoral degree you might end up being a professor or a
research scientist, but when it comes to a masters vs bachelors, chances are,
for most of them, you both will likely end up in a similar job at Google,
Microsoft, Facebook, and others. so why pay twice to get there. not to forget,
you might end up with some sort of funding while doing a graduate degree
compared to undergraduate.

------
criddell
What about non-STEM fields? Are Americans well represented in other graduate
programs?

Plus, if schools want more Americans in graduate STEM programs, couldn't they
just use affirmative action to tilt the demographics in the direction they
want?

~~~
jccalhoun
I got my phd in communications in 2014 from a Big 10 school. International
students were around 10-15% of the grad students and most of those were from
eastern europe. So at least our department was very different than the STEM
departments discussed in the article.

------
amauta
This is everywhere, not just here. My wife is Chinese and she tells me in
China, ppl don’t see the need for grad school unless you go abroad. They
rather work or make their own business if they stay in China. The reason they
go abroad is to try to find a job in the foreign country, have a degree in USA
and go back to find a job easier. All the stupid programs usa universities are
making up just to get more students is useless for real life. I hope
universities becomes useless in a decade or so and we find a better way to get
knowledge.

------
thadk
The aspect the article did not raise was that according to the recent Kaggle
survey, a majority of people practicing in data science work have graduate
degrees (57.4%). This will likely drive a new interest amongst Americans.

[https://www.kaggle.com/surveys/2017](https://www.kaggle.com/surveys/2017)

------
katastic
Before or after all the grad students couldn't get jobs because the market was
full?

------
unboxed_type
It is a bit out of topic, but anyway: Is it possible to defend a PhD thesis
without taking a graduate program at all? Imagine an industry researcher
without a PhD degree who is willing to obtain one.

------
nova22033
From the caption on the first photo:

> A computer science class at N.Y.U.’s _Tandon School_ of Engineering, where
> some 80 percent of graduate students are _from other countries_.

------
MakeThingsWork
Great article and conversation. The important factor for average US undergrad
student not opting for graduate school is definitely due to the astronomical
loans they accumulate during undergrad years.

I simply couldn't for the life of me comprehend why majority of US undergrads
are OK taking on such a huge amount liability and jeopardizing their future
prospect? It perhaps could be because "Everyone is doing it" or because "There
are no other avenues.." I believe the system is setup in such a way that it's
unavoidable and unfair to the students in the name of getting an "education".

Here is a different path/perspective.

I came to the US from one of the poor south Asian countries at 18 to do my
undergrad despite my parents telling me to go for my graduate school in the
early 2000s. For grad school you don't pay tuition and you are paid for your
expenses too working on a research or as a TA. I said to myself, US is the
land of opportunity, possibilities are limitless, go early and figure out the
specifics later. I was very young so yeah "let's do it" attitude prevailed. My
parents were not wealthy either but they had assets enough to cough up tuition
fees. I intentionally selected a small public university in the middle of
nowhere that offered partial scholarship (more on this later). My tuition fees
per year was 9k after scholarship if I remember correctly.

After I landed, I registered for 15- 18 credits per semester and also took a
job part time and that was enough to cover my living expenses and then some. I
believe poverty or coming from a background of family without a lot of means
or a support system to fallback on is a great motivating factor to not
accumulate any debt. I had to hustle pretty much throughout my undergrad
years, if I wasn't in a class, I'd be in the library doing assignment and if I
wasn't in the library I'd be at my job. I wasn't at a frat house partying or
playing sports or joining meetup groups or doing the normal things any regular
undergrad students would do. I consider myself an average student too, nothing
close to the best and the brightest but managed to maintain a 3.7 GPA and
graduated with a Computer Science degree.

In my last semester, I did two internships (Summer/Fall) in small companies
because when I went to couple of job fairs just to check it out, I noticed
that companies really wanted to see some hands on experience. I couldn't
believe they would pay for internship too and better than my part time job. I
worked out a deal with my professor to allow me to work in my final semester
at a local company which counted towards a seminar credit too.

When I graduated, I had 0 debt, three job offers from mid size companies
starting at 50k - 65K in a mid size market (not Silicon Valley). My colleges
at work include Ivy League graduates along with those from top private/public
colleges that cost 30k - 80k per year in tuition and they were all in student
debt. So in hindsight, I think I made a good choice going to a middle of a
nowhere school. It really made no different in getting a Job or acquiring
skills. Sure I didn't have a brand recognition but I could hold my own during
the the interviews to get offers.

Once again, I'm not the smartest guy but I had strong determination not ask my
parents for money on take on loans. Whatever, they offered me initially for
tuition, I paid back after I started working full time and then some. Someone
pointed out about culture in Asian family where parents do anything they can
to invest in their Child's education and that's because it's what they believe
is a way to a better life.

After being in the industry for couple of years, I wanted to increase my
depth/breadth of knowledge in my field so I found a Masters program that I
could pursue part time (nights/weekend). I got my new employer to pony up half
of the tuition (I tried for full tuition reimbursemnt) as well which I
required to accept their job offer. Total cost was $20k tuition for 3 years at
a so called "top 20 nationally ranked engineering school." I could care less
about the ranking...

By 27 I had both undergrad/masters and 5+ years of experience in the industry.
Once again I had no debt.

I believe the system is setup in a such a way that it's so easy to take on a
huge loans for the majority of population without fully understanding the
implications for the future. I mean kids are 18. It feels as if it's almost
similar to using one credit card to pay for the minimum payment of another
credit card.

Also cost of education keep on going higher and higher. I think anytime
government gets involved the price balloons astronomically. Take a look here
[https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/price-changes-in-
consumer...](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/price-changes-in-consumer-
goods-and-services-in-the-usa-1997-2017) #1 is college tuition followed by
Medicare and child care.

I think 20 years from now, it really wouldn't matter which school you go to as
the market is going to put higher emphasis on, what you have done or can do
(skill wise) as opposed to which school you go to. Until then us US tax payers
are going to foot the bill for all these student loans that are eventually
going to blow up like the housing bubble.

So I leave you with some food thought, if a kid from a very poor country can
come to the US with little to no means but dedicated enough not take any loans
to pursue higher education and pursue the American dream, I think it should be
far more easier to native US born students.

------
known
The Economist found that between 2012 and 2015 the three biggest Indian
outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys—submitted over 150,000 visa
applications for positions that paid a median salary of $69,500. In contrast,
America’s five biggest tech firms—Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and
Microsoft—submitted just 31,000 applications, and proposed to pay their
workers a median salary of $117,000

[http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21716630-not-
goo...](http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21716630-not-good-
argument-against-them-h-1b-visas-do-mainly-go-indian-outsourcing)

[https://qz.com/889524/the-us-says-oracle-is-encouraging-
indi...](https://qz.com/889524/the-us-says-oracle-is-encouraging-indians-to-
hire-others-indians-and-its-killing-diversity/)

