
Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable - ekovarski
https://www.latimes.com/business/lazarus/la-fi-lazarus-airline-seats-from-hell-20190426-story.html
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tyingq
The bicycle like standing seat does look awful.

Reclining, though, is a silly feature on coach airline seats. At best, you
temporarily get more room at the expense of the person behind you. Until the
person in front of you reclines. Reclining seats when the seat pitch is so
tight is just dumb.

Oh, and if you get the paywall:
[http://archive.is/vqTNf](http://archive.is/vqTNf)

~~~
rootusrootus
WRT reclining, I disagree. The seats need to be upright enough so that
emergency egress is easy, but that runs contrary to what is comfortable for
many people. I don't need much recline, but allowing the seat to move back an
inch or two (as measured at the top) makes a huge difference in posture.

~~~
derekp7
I'd like to see reclining seats keep the top stationary, but move the bottom
forward. That way when you recline you are only taking away your own space.

~~~
rootusrootus
That would probably require a larger seat pitch. No argument from me.

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CompelTechnic
For short flights, I do not mind the development of "standing seats." Airline
margins will remain razor thin and the savings will be passed to the subset of
customers who choose to be more cramped. There WILL continue to be "premium
economy" or similar for those who choose it, that is undoubtable.

If the price sensitivity tradeoff of customers ultimately dictates that these
standing seats do not gain adoption, I would not be surprised.

History has shown that customers want cheap flights more than they want
comfort, but complaining all the while.

~~~
PaulHoule
I don't believe that "customers want cheap flights more than they want
comfort".

Really customers have about as much choice in the comfort of a flight as they
do in the cost of health care services.

For years it has been "pay 4 times as much as economy or suffer", in the last
ten years they've introduced "basic economy" which at least is realistic.

I might rather fly in a widebody on a domestic flight but I don't get the
choice. One reason you hate to fly is that you hate to fly in a 737 (or A320)
and you never get to fly in anything else so you just don't know it could be
better (at a lower cost per seat mile!) in an A220 or E195.

~~~
mlrtime
People vote with their dollars, many legs have multiple options and multiple
seat options. Almost everyone goes with the cheapest option.

I've flow from NYC to Chicago $90 round trip. It's incredible how inexpensive
flying as become.

~~~
rootusrootus
I've been trying to vote with my dollars for a long time. The problem is that
what used to be economy is now premium and it costs twice what the current
economy seats cost. There is no gradient, it's cattle class or $$$$$

~~~
namdnay
Yes but economy today is half the price of what it was 30 years ago!

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rootusrootus
And since 2005 they've been rising.

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cimmanom
That’ll be fun when you spend 3 hours on the tarmac before your “short haul”
flight due to airport congestion or weather conditions.

Edited to add: what about people with disabilities? Can elderly people no
longer fly? Or even if they have a few sitting seats to comply with disability
regulations, what happens if you sprain your ankle at some point between
booking your flight and boarding?

~~~
mikybee93
I don't think anyone suggested that _all_ seats are going to be replaced by
these.

~~~
cimmanom
Sure, but if you have to pay a premium for regular seats just because you have
a disability, that seems like a problem. And the injury scenario could also be
extremely problematic. What if there are no sitting seats left, or you could
afford the cattle class seat but not the business class seat?

If my grandmother needs to fly, do we have to upgrade both her seat and
someone else’s in the family to something twice as expensive so someone can
help her with the various things she can’t do for herself any more? Or upgrade
the whole family if we want to sit together?

Current cattle class seats aren’t comfortable. But they’re accommodating to
the elderly and people with disabilities or injuries. If some seat shuffling
is required to accommodate a special case it’s usually just shifting people
between aisle and non-aisle seats, not downgrading them to standing seats so
someone else can sit.

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draugadrotten
Rubbish. This type of "news" is cheap brand name advertising by low cost
airlines. The 5-pound toilet from European Ryanair was a similar campaign.
Though news coverage may appear negative, it is aligned with the impression of
the brand as "low cost" and therefore strengthens the brand.

~~~
corodra
That’s interesting. I never thought about that. Any idea on the effectiveness
of doing this? It just seems dicey to me with quite a lot of risk with minimal
benefit. I’d rather pet a rabid raccoon than be the PR manager that pulls this
stunt. But I do see your point and if done well... yea, just say you found
better ways of being lower cost and everyone forgets this ever happened.

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JoeAltmaier
Some of us barely fit into a jet cabin at all now! Anything over maybe 5'10"
and you have to duck. I'm 6'4". Imagine standing for an hour with your neck
torqued because the headroom is too little.

In addition the new Delta legroom of 23" (including the depth of the seat!)
will make it impossible for me to sit down. My knee is 25" from the seat (I
just measured it). With existing 29" 'seat pitch' cabins, I have to splay my
legs or sit sideways.

I guess it'll be the train for me.

~~~
swarnie_
Do you even have a functioning passenger train network? I've heard terrible
things.

~~~
leetcrew
the train network is great! if you live in DC, NYC, or Boston, you can easily
get to any other of those three cities!

...

~~~
cannonedhamster
Except it's more expensive than flying. I'd love to take the train from Boston
to DC but buses are significantly cheaper and generally get you there at a
similar time when you take into account how often they leave.

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moftz
I would want to try sitting in one sometime. Airlines might have a better time
trying to push the idea if they can get mockups built that can be installed in
terminals at major airlines. If it's actually not that bad, let people test it
out. It looks terrible but so is sitting in a cramped airline chair with your
knees jammed into the seatback. If the vertical seat at least gave the
illusion of more room in the sense that you aren't physically pressed up
against anything, it might feel more comfortable. Another issue with the
vertical seats is that everyone is a different height and therefore a
different inseam length, how do you accommodate shorter people and children
while also fitting tall people in? Having the saddle/seat being able to move
up and down like an office chair would help.

~~~
x86_64Ubuntu
You are talking about the "hidden comfort" of such a system. Ask yourself
this, where else do you see such a configuration where there isn't a profit
motive? Do people eat dinner in such a configuration? Do their living rooms
have vertical seats? What about movie theaters, stadiums and classrooms?

Of course you don't.

~~~
majewsky
Business opportunity: A university where tuition is way cheaper because the
lecture halls have those standing seats to cram in twice as many students. /s

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lenticular
Airlines are having near-record profits now. I have a hard time believing
there isn't some implicit or explicit collusion going on with US carriers. Not
only are seats ever-more cramped and the fees ever greater, but pilot benefits
have been massively slashed at many airlines as well. The series of mergers we
have had have made things worse, I think.

~~~
overthemoon
This is my suspicion, as well. I don't buy the complaints about thin margins
driving these decisions. The main innovation of airlines appears to be exactly
how much misery people will put up with and still buy a ticket.

~~~
x86_64Ubuntu
Razor thin margins and R&D expense is how folks handwave away being gouged by
price or having service that would be deemed illegal for cattle.

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mrerrormessage
Am I the only one who thinks standing for shorter flights of < 3 hours would
be healthier and more comfortable? I work regularly at a standing desk,
sitting for too long makes me feel lethargic and often causes headaches for me
(it's much easier to have good posture, neck and back alignment when
standing). For longer flights, people need a seat, but for shorter flights I
would gladly pay the same price to be able to stand instead.

~~~
mhluongo
For folks with vascular issues, standing while flying can be more dangerous
(increased vascular load).

Movement rather than standing or sitting still is the way to go.

~~~
YUMad
Just put some steppers under them lol

~~~
xaqfox
Add electricity generation to the steppers and you could remove the APU and
save even more fuel.

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rfreytag
I have seen people panic due to in-flight turbulence. It would not be fun to
see seat mates experience an attack of claustrophobia.

Add in a tiny crisis or delays and the close space could cause unexpected mob
behaviors.

Also, how would you pick up something if you dropped it; or eat?

The free-air to passenger ratio would diminish making body odors could get
much more intense. Unexpected delays anyone?

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SmellyGeekBoy
This concept has been doing the rounds for a long time. I can't believe that
any airline would be seriously considering it. Ryanair will occasionally drop
a hint that they're looking into it when they're desperate for some free
publicity, but that's about it.

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NikolaeVarius
Old as hell news

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_seat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_seat)

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mikybee93
This makes no sense to me. Airlines are adding another option that is cheaper.
How is that a bad thing? If I don't want the cheaper option, another airline
will offer me a more comfortable one and I'll pay for it. What is there to be
upset about here?

~~~
xienze
> Airlines are adding another option that is cheaper. How is that a bad thing?

No, they’re going to make this the new default setting. The regular crappy
seat you enjoy today will become the “economy premium” option and cost more.

> If I don't want the cheaper option, another airline will offer me a more
> comfortable one and I'll pay for it.

Assuming they go where you’re going in the timeframe you’re expecting. And
assuming they don’t just move in lock-step with their other competitors and
make these new seats the default.

~~~
mikybee93
>And assuming they don’t just move in lock-step with their other competitors
and make these new seats the default

Well then they wouldn't be competitors, would they? That's another problem.

Any single airline could disrupt the system by choosing not to install these
and to keep their prices the same. Or choosing to install these and lower
their prices. Which are two good things for consumers.

Like I replied above, that's basic economics of competition.

~~~
xienze
Show me the airline today that has superior seats to all the others that
charges the same amount. It’s not a coincidence that seating has gotten
crappier across the board.

~~~
mikybee93
And it's also not a coincidence that flights have gotten cheaper across the
board.

Airlines have, as a whole, found that it's more profitable to sell cheaper
crappy seats than it is to sell more expensive nice seats, because nobody will
buy the nice seats given the option.

If someone had superior seats, why would they charge the same amount?

What I'm trying to say is that _if_ someone comes out with a crappier seat,
they will have to charge less than a normal seat. If they choose not to, they
won't be able to get people _into_ those standing seats.

When a company comes out with a crappier car, do they charge the same amount
as a standard car? Does the price of that standard car rise, now that there's
a crappy car at its price point?

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slater
So is there, then, a market for an airline that offers substantially more
legroom and larger seats (biz-class-size for the entire plane?) for a slight
increase in price?

Aforementioned Delta Airlines had $1.3bn in PROFITS last year, so not sure
about razor-thin margins.

~~~
Someone1234
Flight comparison sites don't show any information about comfort, so
passengers cannot pick it.

Meaning all they'll see is "Ultracheap: $50" Vs. "ComfortAir: $80" and pick
the $50 option because that's all the information they're given.

You want to sell a nicer class of service, you need to change the entire
industry to communicate it.

~~~
cannonedhamster
Nevermind comfort, bag fees, hidden fees, different amenities, etc. None of
that is covered in most travel sites, just the fare. If there were a fare site
that also had a comfort gauge for price it would spur competition. Moreso for
something with a "Truecost" calculator that took into account bags, overhead
space, seat pitch, food, terminal niceties, etc. This would be the ultimate
air travel site.

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forinti
There will, inevitably, be people who simply can't use these seats.

If you have a bad knee, you might not be able to bend it. If you are old and
have a bad back you might not be able to stay in a such a seat for long.

This is going to cause trouble.

~~~
moate
I'm sure there's going to be some sort of language at ticket purchase that you
will be liable for any problems because you chose to stand the whole time. Or,
if the flight maybe they offer you the option to purchase an upgrade to one of
the unbooked chairs.

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flyinglizard
If anything, the advent of low cost airlines shows we haven't yet hit the
cost/comfort sweetspot and that air travel is still too expensive and
comfortable (at least at the <4 hours category).

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rhexs
Currently flights effectively have no room left anymore -- I have absolutely
no idea why the seats on short-haul flights have the ability to recline. It's
impossible to use a 15 inch laptop if the person in front of you moves their
seat back.

If Delta removes that ability, I'll start flying with them exclusively. Have
back problems? Feel free to pay more to sit in first/economy plus/whatever.

I'd obviously also support regulation for minimum seat space sizes, but that
will never happen in America.

~~~
rootusrootus
> Have back problems? Feel free to pay more to sit in first/economy
> plus/whatever.

Have freakishly long legs? Feel free to pay more to sit in first/economy
plus/whatever.

I like this game. :)

~~~
rhexs
I’d fit that case under my “minimum seat space regulation clause”, but yeah,
not gonna happen. I feel for the tall guys on flights, but not enough to want
them to jam their seat into my chest.

Real enemy here is the airlines and the lack of regulation.

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Cakez0r
This would have to be coupled with a reduction in carry on luggage size.
Overhead compartments are already frequently full with the current number of
passengers in economy cabins.

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lizknope
People want cheap flights. Some people want more comfortable flights and are
willing to pay.

I fly about 3 times a year domestically in the United States and Delta,
American, and United all have a "Comfort or Economy Plus" section with extra
legroom. It costs between $50-200 per flight extra but also includes boarding
right after first class before everyone else.

For me it is totally worth it. I don't need first class treatment but at my
height the extra legroom is absolutely worth the price.

~~~
Y0s
I have to fly for university work. They can only purchase economy seats.
Either I pay personally out of pocket or suffer (I'm 6'4"). I don't quite fly
enough, and to diverse international destinations on partner airlines, that
status upgrades are rare.

~~~
ghaff
Status upgrades are pretty rare until you get to about 100K miles or so per
year--and, even then, far from universal and free.

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dcbadacd
I'm not sure how that's going to work a single person not of the average
height, are they saying tall people have to just stand without support and
short people get ass-stabbed by the seat?

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username223
Prior art:
[http://www.bl.uk/learning/timeline/large106661.html](http://www.bl.uk/learning/timeline/large106661.html)

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Jemm
The quest to cut costs is worse than seats, it extends to safety and pilot
training as seen by the Ethiopian airlines co-pilot who had less than 100
flight hours before being put into a 737.

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EADGBE
TIL there's an exposition for everything.

[https://www.aircraftinteriorsexpo.com/](https://www.aircraftinteriorsexpo.com/)

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kiernan
Seats should automatically recline after take-off, and automatically raise
during meals and landing. No manual recline control.

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paultopia
The funny thing is, this headline could have been published any time in the
last couple of decades, and it would still be true.

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AznHisoka
Good, in the meantime I will be staying home and enjoying my time around my
city/state more. Or instead of having multiple flights for vacations, I'll
have a longer vacation in just 1 place.

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api
Airlines are giving people what they want: cheaper tickets. The only way to do
that at this point is pack more people on a plane.

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crankylinuxuser
Gee golly!

You mean to tell me capitalists are trying to extract more money by increasing
capacity (and thus increasing misery)? Please say it isn't so!

/news at 11

~~~
noonespecial
Good news. You are also a capitalist. Don't buy the ticket.

~~~
crankylinuxuser
No, I'm not a capitalist. Just because I was born in this system doesn't make
me a willing participant.

Thanks for playing though.

~~~
noonespecial
Participant nonetheless. Again, don't buy the ticket.

Whats the alternative here? A nice fat regulation that all airline seats
require 4 feet of legroom? Then we can all fly in absolute comfort! What? The
cheapest ticket is $4500? &%^$% Capitalist pigs!

