
Going from $0 to $500k in 1 Year with no VC Money - antr
http://thenextweb.com/entrepreneur/2012/05/01/build-the-rocket-first-from-0-to-500k-in-1-year-with-no-vc-money/
======
juddlyon
One detail left from the analysis: these guys are already well-known for their
UX work amongst the crowd most likely to purchase Flow.

Reminds me of when Guy Kawasaki launched Alltop for "only 10K." Yeah, 10K +
500K worth of PR that comes with having an enormous following.

This is not to diminish what Metalab or Guy Kawasaki do, I'm admire both. But
it's not like these results are as reproducible as they infer without
significant connections.

~~~
redguava
It's not luck that they are already well known for their UX work. That is part
of their hard work to get them to that point.

You say these results aren't as reproducible without significant
connections... but getting significant connections is reproducible. I guess
you could consider that step 1 in their process.

I would also say that you can build an audience and get connections with some
hustle and/or money. A well designed pre-launch page and some paid advertising
will get you an audience for launch day.

~~~
robryan
Yeah, the article glossed over that step 1 though, lots of similar articles
do. Once you have a big network of the right people have have your work well
known and respected lots of things become easy.

------
jasonkester
In case the Flow guys are reading this, please please please put out a simple
HTML version of your thing.

Flow sits at the top of my "most annoying web app ever" list, because it
follows the pattern of loading an empty shell, then populating it. I bet this
works amazingly well for the guys developing it from their local dev server,
but for those of us across the Atlantic from your servers it's really really
painful.

Workflow involves clicking a link to look at a task. Then hitting the back
button. Then waiting several seconds for the list to slowly repopulate itself.
Then trying to scroll down (which is no easy feat since there's no scroll
bar), and just before you get back to where you wanted to be, the list jumps
back to the top. Repeat (scroll/jump/scroll/jump) several times before the
page settles down, usually cutting the last item in half with no way to see
it.

So yeah, Step One: HTML in a table. So that the back button works, and the
page otherwise behaves like a web page.

Step two: Un-reinvent the scrollbar. The javascript thing you have in place
that only works with the mousewheel just plain doesn't work.

Glad to see you're doing well for yourselves, but I'm sorry to report that I'm
one of the people in your "churn" column.

~~~
marknutter
I'm guessing you don't actually use flow day to day. I'm also guessing that if
they made an HTML version you probably wouldn't use that either; you probably
have your own way of managing your projects and todos. I'm also guessing
you're using this post as a sounding board for your gripes with single page
javascript applications. Are any of these guesses accurate?

~~~
jasonkester
No. I used Flow on a daily basis for the better part of two months, to
coordinate a team of six on a major product feature we were developing. The
things I mention above are chronic issues I ran into every day, not
superficial things I saw once before dismissing the thing.

They're also 100% fixable.

If you're going to do this sort of "empty container" app, it's worth modifying
your approach a tiny bit and instead going with "filled container". That is,
sending the actual page content over the wire, then doing all your smartness
and auto-updating behind the scenes where the user can't see it. You get all
the benefits that the browser gives you for free such as cache management and
back-button support, and you can also build in all your rich UX just like
before.

And of course, if you're going to rip out a 20-year-tested native control like
the _scrollbar_ , it's up to you to make absolutely certain that the thing you
replace it with is better. Theirs is demonstrably worse in pretty much every
way a scrollbar can be worse, and actually fails the simple case of "scroll
the document", as it tends to lose its position. The fix for this is as
obvious as it is easy to implement: use the native scrollbar to scroll your
list.

If they do those things, they may win me and my team back.

~~~
marknutter
Boy was I wrong. Thanks for the clarification, these are great critiques.

------
auston
MetaLab is very high on my list of "people who do awesome work". They've been
plugging away at products for years now, I remember Billy He / Ali Bosworth
announced one of their first products on HN - ballpark
(<http://getballpark.com>) + (hn thread:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=557028>).

You can catch an interview with Andrew Wilkinson here:
<http://5by5.tv/founderstalk/28>

I've had the opportunity of having the Flow product lead (Luke Seeley) speak
at my conference - seriously smart guy.

Congrats to them for growing to $500k+ per year on their own!

~~~
joering2
re HN post: I know it was 4 years ago, but regarding to patio11 first post
over there, even 4yrs ago SSL was really cheap. Having your customer decide
whether they want to have their data securely transferred or not over such a
minimal cost-difference made me wonder what were the owners thinking? yes, I
know there is additional cost involved in encrypting/decryption but 4 years
ago servers were not that much more expensive as today; plus they created MVP
product and started with 0 users, I assume. Nothing stopped them from adding
extra $5 to every plan they sell and set it aside for a stronger server given
userbase will keep growing.

Its like giving users extremely fast rocket to fly on and telling them "there
is no windshield and seatbelts are extra $5".

Bottom line: I would rather have less customers and everyone with minimum
security over their data, than safe extra couple bucks. IF they would ever get
their data sniffed and shit would hit the fan, guess who would media blamed
for it?

~~~
mattmanser
It used to be a 'premium' feature of 37 signals products if I recall
correctly. At the time it felt like others copied them, perhaps I'm
remembering incorrectly. So I'm not surprised to see that.

I believe it was just a way to get people to upgrade. Views have changed in
the meantime as it's dawned on everyone how bad an idea it is not to have SSL
on for everyone given how negligible the cost is.

------
guynamedloren
> _We usually clock between four and six hours a day, and most of us don’t
> even get to the office before noon._

Realllly interested to hear more about this. Can anybody from Flow elaborate?
How well does this work? How did 4-6 hours come about? Why not 5-7 hrs? Or
3-5? How do salaries work - is everybody full time?

> _We believe in working smart, not hard, and having lives outside the
> office._

Why can't you work smart and hard? Couldn't you accomplish in 8 hours what
other teams could accomplish in 8-16 hrs?

Please share :)

~~~
TamDenholm
One of the problems with old school thinking is that working hard means
working long, which is absolute rubbish. Personally I can't be productive for
8 hours a day and I'm pretty sure nobody can, all the time you're not being
productive you're generally wasting time by making coffee, checking emails,
attending meetings etc. So why not actually just work the time that you're
productive and then go and enjoy the rest of the time instead of just using up
time doing things of little consequence.

That's working smart, IMO working longer just for the sake of it is working
stupid because long and constant working hours aren't just wasted time, they
negatively impact the time you wouldve been productive.

~~~
japhyr
This is why some of us can reasonably hope to launch a startup on the side
while working a full time job. We're not putting in two 8-hour days, we're
putting in 8-hour days at a full time job, and then putting in a couple highly
productive hours on our own project every night or early every morning.

I'm pretty sure there are a good number of people on here who are splitting
their days like this.

------
Bamafan
Nice product and the team seems very talented. But whenever I read these
stories (from 0 to $8 billion in 3 monthz!1!!!11), lots of important details
are left out.

#1 How are you able to connect to 4,000+ paying customers so quickly?

Actually, that's it. I'm guessing any number of HN guys could create this
product. But we don't know how to get people to buy it.

~~~
acabal
That's what I'd like to know. How did they get so many people interested in
yet _another_ project management app (I swear I hear about a new one every
month)? That's the most crucial piece of info they could possibly share,
anything else is not really useful at all, frankly.

~~~
bdunn
People manage projects, and usually get paid for it. The audience is use and
wildly segmented.

You see a lot of apps in this space for two reasons: a lot of people need
project management tools, and most of these people will pay for one that works
well for them.

------
cjmauthor
_We believe in working smart, not hard, and having lives outside the office_

It is very difficult to not give every single minute to a startup. There is
always so much to do. My first question is, if these guys were able to
accomplish this with short days, would they have gone further and achieved
even better results if they worked just a little bit harder. How do you know
when you are giving too much, and is there really an amount of hours of work
per day where you go from progress to regress? Does somebody say hey I can see
your project and at this stage you can add a little bit at a time?

My second question is would this company have received so much more than the
500k had they had investors, and ultimately be better off?

I would appreciate any feedback or suggestions. My startup is
<http://1800businesscards.com> and it is all self funded. Do I continue to put
exhaustive hours in or do I step back and let it mature slowly. Should I seek
venture capital or do I move slowly? There is just no resource or place for
advice on these issues in my very small world. Thanks all.

------
joelhaasnoot
Is it just me or is the space of project/organization tools getting really
swamped these days? Seems like every day I hear of a new one.

I guess it is something that comes down to preference alot, and some are too
opinionated to be flexible and offer all the options (i.e Basecamp), others
too simple. But maybe they're all the "MS Project" of this generation.

(Oh, and personally use Pivotal Tracker and love it)

~~~
Jun8
I still haven't found an ideal solution. The problem with most, including
Flow, is that companies won't allow you to put data on the Internet (e.g. my
office blocks Dropbox), which cuts most solutions. So you have to convince
your IT to install it locally (for large corps don't try, you can't). What I'm
looking for is a nice personal proj/org tool that would interface with email
and calendar and would give a snapshot of my multiple projects.

Do you know anything like that?

~~~
saturdaysaint
I use Workflowy and paste in Google Docs/Drive links to any file I need to
reference. I love Workflowy's flexibility - it's amazing for everything from
task management to taking meeting minutes to brainstorming... and then
organizing it into one cohesive system.

~~~
dctoedt
+1 for Workflowy. I started using it a few weeks ago; I like it more with
every passing day, especially 1) the simple UI, 2) easy tagging, 3) easy
searching, and 4) the ability to click on an outline level to make it "the
page." Yeah, this is off-topic, but I really hope the Workflowy crew prospers
so they can keep improving the service.

------
vgurgov
Am I only one having this question: what is 500k states for? Is it 500k/month
/year or total revenue? If its not montly, how can they hire 10 ppl?

~~~
systemtrigger
He said it was recurring revenue and the context in which he said it implied
annual. He also said they kept the team down to three until right before
launch and only once they had predictable revenue did they start bringing the
remainder onboard. He further explained that during development the team
performed client work, which would have further offset their costs.

------
Jun8
"By the time we launched, the price tag on Flow came in around $300,000."

That's peanuts compared to VC funding but still quite a sizable sum for a lot
of people (e.g. me).

~~~
metalab
Of course, definitely a lot of money. We funded using cash from doing client
work part-time.

~~~
guynamedloren
I'm assuming most (all?) of the work was done in house, so did the $300k go to
paying employees? Thanks for sharing your story.

~~~
hiccup
I'm betting this is the calculation: hours of product development X hourly
bill rate = $300k

------
tbergeron
I really love Metalab, I always looked at them for inspiration and seriously
I'm proud of those guys.

They took the other road, the road which is in my opinion the best and the
wisest. You must work hard to get to your point, being funded is not working
hard (opinions may vary that while you're funded you can focus on your project
instead of money but I think this is a very good part of the startup concept).

Once again, Metalab inspires me, my projects are starting to get real and I'm
doing it the Metalab's way. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one and that
this method is successful as well. (I couldn't care less about having 4.2m or
500k, at least you have enough fund to back up your dreams and projects).

That was my 2cents. Keep up the good work guys!

------
Sukotto
Inspiring, though short on details. Hope they do a Mixergy interview.

~~~
Mz
And/or additional articles. Given my health issues, organic growth and
reasonable work hours are my only hope of achieving some kind of financial
success. So I, too, would love to see more of the back story.

------
speg
The sign up form is broken on my iPad. After I enter my name and move to the
email field it loses focus.

------
dkrich
Sorry, this is just a shameless ripoff of 37Signals and Rework. This whole
"you only have to work a few hours a day" philosophy will only take you so
far. That's just simple economics. If something is that easy to build it means
there are very low barriers to entry. When there are very low barriers to
entry, profits eventually get squashed to zero. The only exception to this is
when you are first to market with something unique. It is virtually impossible
to be first to market with something unique in the bloated project management
saas space. Actually, this site is a perfect example- from what I can tell
they went from nothing to competing with 37Signals in one year.

~~~
TDL
"The only exception to this is when you are first to market with something
unique."

The "first mover" advantage is largely a myth. Many successful companies that
dominate their market segments weren't the first entrants in that segment.

~~~
dkrich
> The "first mover" advantage is largely a myth. Many successful companies
> that dominate their market segments weren't the first entrants in that
> segment.

I think this depends upon how granularly you bucket the different companies.
If you just use broad strokes and say "Apple wasn't the first to make a cell
phone", then what you are saying is true, albeit at ignoring the fact that
they were the first to make a cell phone with a glass touchscreen, advanced
software, app store integration, and sustained improvements. Now if you put
companies into that bucket, you basically end up with Apple. Samsung followed,
and makes outstanding products in the exact same space, but in that bucket,
Apple is the leader.

Apple is an oft-cited example, but I'll bet that if you look at any product
that leads its space, it was the first to do what it does in exactly the way
it does it. The reason I'm skeptical about how well this can work for project
management saas companies is that there are only so many pixels to manipulate
on a screen, and only so many ways to organize a project. If you are making a
"me-too" product you will lose out in the long run. That's all I was saying.
Not sure why people get so upset with facts.

~~~
TDL
I was thinking more Pampers (P&G) vs. Chux (JnJ). In fact P&G is an example of
successfully being a "me-too" player. The "me-too" companies are often the
innovators that create better products.

I have no idea why you are being down voted.

------
angryasian
By itself its a great story, but the background context is metalabs is a very
successful company thats well connected prior to launching this product. This
type of product is much more successful with the right sales people and
connections.

------
syed123
Perfect example of a great team work. 25% of their team worked on consulting
projects to fund it. An example for Silicon Valley companies who raise million
dollar fundings just based on prototype!

------
e-dard
This is great. However, did I read the article right - by the time they
launched they had spent 300K?

Here's a question - is it possible to ever do something like this without the
requirement of finding 300K via consulting gigs first? I assume that given
there were 3 of them and they spent only a few months building it, they didn't
need all of the 300K on salaries.

I suppose you would have to grow the product from a smaller stage, rather than
build it and launch?

~~~
redguava
I recall that had a fairly impressive marketing video on their page
previously. This could have cost $50k alone.

I think the main unexpected cost that you can incur is advertising/marketing.
You can build the software cheaply, but it's very hard to get the word out
without spending money (and it can add up very fast). Considering their fast
growth, I would also assume significant spend in this area.

As long as you are getting a positive ROI from this spend, then it's worth
throwing as much as you can at it, but obviously you need to have it to
throw... that may be one the keys to their success.

~~~
metalab
The video cost us way, way less than that.

------
cluda01
I've been playing around with flow. It looks like a cocoa app. Did they use
Cappuccino by chance?

Wondering what their stack was/is

~~~
nullmeatbag
From their technical lead on Quora: [http://www.quora.com/Flow-web-
application/What-JavaScript-fr...](http://www.quora.com/Flow-web-
application/What-JavaScript-framework-does-Flow-use-for-its-web-
frontend/answer/Jason-Webster-2)

jQuery, (customized) Backbone.js, socket.io, and a fair amount of other custom
JS.

------
KaanSoral
Very inspiring and in my opinion easier to achieve since you have no
responsibility

------
aytekin
I wonder how much having a existing popular brand helped them on their
success.

------
ricardobeat
> we were tuned-in to what our users wanted because we built it for ourselves

That only works if there are people with the exact same expectations on the
market (which seems to be the case).

------
dgudkov
Question to founders -- how did you get your first 1000 users?

~~~
metalab
We managed to get some nice launch press and a lot of organic word of
mouth/referrals.

------
Zakuzaa
>>"Going from $0 to $500k in 1 year.."

Congrats. Great work.

>>"..with no VC Money"

What makes it something to be proud of? Doesn't that imply taking VC money is
bad? Why?

~~~
ericd
It's more challenging to make and grow a business without much money than
with.

------
dave1619
How is Flow different than Basecamp?

------
paparoger
Pretty sweet!

------
bzloe
Good stuff guys

