
Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies - baazaar
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/future-transport_canton-valais-to-test--hyperloop--train-technologies/44616820
======
salimmadjd
Hyperloop only works most comfortably in very flat routes. It's something I
never realized until I visited Hyperloop's offices in LA when they first
started.

I got to make some early promo photos for them [0] and signed a 10-year NDA in
the process. However, what I learned (which is public knowledge) that at high
speeds even smallest elevation drops would make the passengers feel the free-
fall sensation of being on a rollercoaster. Basically at high speeds the
elevation change of the vertical vector components of anything more than
several degrees can approach the free fall dropping speeds.

I have also taken numerous train rides in Switzerland and driven through large
parts of the country and I don't believe the technology can be used there as
well as it could have been deployed in other routes in the world that is
naturally more flat. So I'm wondering if this mostly an R&D project designed
to export an entire tunnel/hyperloop making solution.

[0]
[https://www.instagram.com/p/BMiyAIdhCJn/](https://www.instagram.com/p/BMiyAIdhCJn/)
(photo is about 80 frames stacked. Because we only had one welder at the time
and I had to reuse him and also to intricately light every parts of this lot)

~~~
jcranmer
The thing about ultra-high-speed is this: your benefits (travel time) grow
linearly with speed, but your problems (energy, capacity, curve radii, etc.)
grow quadratically.

Actually, it's worse than it sounds. Travel time has a big impact on demand--
but only within a small-ish window, about 2-4 hours. Outside of that window,
demand does not respond that much to changes in travel time. That means that
higher speeds are ultimately about trying to bring more destinations within
the acceptable travel time window, but you also have to give up destinations
within that window because the stop time penalties are too high.

Switzerland has the issue that it's just too small. With conventional
300-350km/h max-speed HSR, going from the eastern to the western edge of the
country could be done in about 2 hours (recall that average speed is going to
be less than max speed, particularly when stops are included), which is around
the point where going faster means getting no practical benefit for people. It
could serve international routes, but then Switzerland is bearing the costs
without reaping the benefits, which the citizenry tends not to favor very
highly.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Even the HSR that operates in Switzerland, the TGV, doesn't get up to speed
until it is well within France. Switzerland tracks aren't straight enough for
HSR, and it would cost a lot to straighten them out.

There also isn't a lot of demand for Geneva to Zurich in an hour.

~~~
m_mueller
I think the demand would come _after_ it gets built. Even bigger would be
demand for Bern/Zurich and Basel/Zurich in 30min, bringing these cities
comfortably into commute distance. People do that today but only if they
really must.

There is an aspect of Swiss economy that makes HSR attractive: high degree of
decentralization.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Those cities already feel close enough together. More to the point, I don’t
think Switzerland probably wants the kind of growth that HSR would enable and
encourage.

~~~
snovv_crash
No they really aren't close enough together. For example, I know someone who
moved from Zurich to Olten so that their girlfriend's commute to Bern would be
reasonable. Now you have 2 people with 50 minute commutes instead of 1 person
with 1h45 and another person with 15min. If there was a 30min connection from
Bern to Zurich it would be perfectly reasonable to live in one and commute to
the other.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Again, does Switzerland really want to become one big mega city? It is up for
the Swiss to decide, but a huge commute draw between Bern and Zurich (or even
Bern and Lausanne) would lead to something more like Japan.

~~~
m_mueller
Maybe that’s just me but I don’t think of Japan as a bad model in how to have
a dense population that is prosperous. If anything their biggest problem
currently is depopulation of remote areas.

~~~
wavefunction
The question is about density and whether that's something to pursue even if
it's prosperous.

~~~
yayana
It's an incongruous question. Hyperloops between Basel, Bern and Zurich would
make them into one virtual Mini-City. The loops would also reduce density in
the travel corridors preventing a California catastrophe kind of sprawl
inbetween.

~~~
wavefunction
On the mountains that the hyperloop would traverse? ok dudes

~~~
yayana
Basel<>Bern (direct) would need tunnels.. The other 2 routes are pretty flat.
Most of the Swiss economy is in the valley between the Jura range and the
Alps.

The necessary tunnels for Basel would probably cost less than this:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel)

But Bern<>Zurich is the SBB's bottleneck.

------
Animats
The Dubai-Abu Dhabi hyperloop had a lot more potential.[1] Flat undeveloped
desert along most of the route, the best case for a tube train. But the UAE
government is backing off on support.

Nobody really wants to build Musk's hovercraft-like system. They're all maglev
in vacuum systems.

Meanwhile, Japan's JR continues to tunnel for the Tokyo-Nagoya maglev. They
have 42km of working track and rolling stock. It's expensive, but it's very
real.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbFq_pSijE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbFq_pSijE)

~~~
aidenn0
You don't happen to know why nobody wants the air-bearing system? It seems
like all Musk's announcement did was give cachet to tube train maglev.

~~~
om42
Air bearings are expensive and have a very low clearance (talking about tens
of microns). The lower clearance raises the issue of safety. If I remember
correctly, to get that to be greater than tens of microns you need larger
compressors and lower operating pressure inside the tube which increases costs
and it tougher to maintain.

If you take a look at the SpaceX Hyperloop competition the teams moved away
from using air bearings mostly due to the low clearances and the challenges it
brought. Maybe on Mars it could be more realistic.

~~~
aidenn0
I don't know why I didn't think about the clearance; that's a very good point.
Does the low clearance affect maximum roughness and slope of the track as
well?

[edit]

Did any of the hyperloop competitors try the addition of a skirt, similar to
the UK's old hovertrain?

[edit2]

Googling for "hyperloop skirt" found this article:
[https://waset.org/publications/10004923/conceptional-
design-...](https://waset.org/publications/10004923/conceptional-design-of-a-
hyperloop-capsule-with-linear-induction-propulsion-system-) which suggests a
2cm clearance, but no clue if that's a reliable source.

------
ilove_banh_mi
Swissmetro [1] was a precursor concept publicized in 1993 [2], abandoned by
2009.

[1]
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255792073_Swissmetr...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255792073_Swissmetro_-
_Project_Development_Status)

[2] PDF link to English-language report at the bottom of the page:
[http://www.bfe.admin.ch/dokumentation/energieforschung/index...](http://www.bfe.admin.ch/dokumentation/energieforschung/index.html?lang=en&publication=2502)

------
heinrichf
Back in the 70s:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissmetro](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissmetro)
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissmetro](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissmetro)

~~~
ilove_banh_mi
[Corrected, with thanks! I hadn't read the German-language wikipedia page, and
I don't recall hearing about the roots of the idea when it was in the news by
1993.]

A research and development project was funded and launched in the 90s, while
the initial concept is credited to Swiss engineer Rodolphe Nieth in 1974.

------
icefo
Damn it feels super weird to hear something about my childhood village on HN.

There is also a recently closed refinery there. The funny thing is that they
never budgeted the decommissioning cost when it was built. So there is no
money to do it and it's probably going to stay like that forever.

I hope the don't do the same for this project.

~~~
StreakyCobra
You know what is even more weird? Reading a comment on HN of another person
saying he also grew up there ;-)

------
__m
[https://youtu.be/RNFesa01llk](https://youtu.be/RNFesa01llk)

~~~
ttul
That was a good watch!

------
malajubee
Virgin hyperloop is also planning to do testing/R&D in Europe, more
specificially in the Malaga province in Spain.

[http://www.surinenglish.com/local/201808/10/virgin-
chooses-i...](http://www.surinenglish.com/local/201808/10/virgin-chooses-
inland-malaga-20180810104636-v.html)

------
mcguire
Why is the car ([https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/space-age-technology_swiss-
team...](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/space-age-technology_swiss-team-comes-
third-in-hyperloop-competition/44273992)) streamlined?

------
treve
If the drawing has the correct scale, it looks like you will have to lie down
going through the tube. Futurama-esk.

~~~
microtherion
Since both accelerating to 900kmh on such a short track and decelerating will
involve multi-g forces, maybe this will be the most comfortable travel
position.

~~~
ip26
I think it's the opposite really, you black out at much lower g forces when
accelerating head first compared to face front.

Not proof of anything but notice rocket crew always face front.

~~~
microtherion
Interesting! But presumably in this setup, one would experience both
significant acceleration AND deceleration. Is there any static orientation
that would minimize problems for both?

~~~
chki
Well, sideways or rather upright (possibly in a seating position) is probably
better but seems not very aerodynamic. I think those are the three possible
orientations. But I mean are we seriously considering a transportation system
where part of the journey is a black out/red out? The time gain by
accelerating with 5g instead of 1g can't be that big (Maybe a few minutes at
most?).

Edit: I'm not sure if there's an error in my calculations but with 1g
acceleration it should take about 25s to get to 900km/h? That seems ok.

~~~
microtherion
I agree with your calculations, but with an 1g acceleration for 25s, the train
will travel a bit more than 3km, and getting to the end of the track (which is
3km according to the article) at close to 900km/h is unlikely to lead to a
happy outcome.

If my math is right, in order to accelerate to 900km/h and decelerate to a
stop again, all on a 3km track, requires acceleration/deceleration of a bit
more than 2g.

