
I hate Strong Female Characters - jamesjyu
http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2013/08/i-hate-strong-female-characters
======
rayiner
Hollywood writes strong female characters because it can't write realistic
women characters (something like 90% of produced scripts are written by men).
All it can do is caricatures: Bella from twilight on one hand and the Kung-Fu
princess on the other.

It's just the flip side of this:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test;)
[http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/features/10-famous-films-
th...](http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/features/10-famous-films-that-
surprisingly-fail-the-bechdel-test.php;) [http://thehathorlegacy.com/why-film-
schools-teach-screenwrit...](http://thehathorlegacy.com/why-film-schools-
teach-screenwriters-not-to-pass-the-bechdel-test/).

One of the shows I really like is Orange and Black. By setting the show in a
women's prison, the writers are forced to develop a range of female characters
who don't just sit around talking about men.

Tilda Swinton's character in Michael Clsyton is also great. So is the female
Israeli soldier in World War Z.

~~~
Tichy
Bella from Twilight was written by a woman, and consumed mostly by women.

~~~
Amadou
Seems to me that Bella, and Twilight in general, are very anti-feminist. She's
only strong when it is a plot-point to get herself into trouble where she can
be rescued by a man. The movies struck me as the worst sort of teenage
princess fantasy.

~~~
Tichy
Of course, but the claim was heroines are only shallow because they are
written by men.

Also Bella's case might indicate that it's simply not worth it for Hollywood
to create deeper characters, because the shallow ones sell better.

------
hcarvalhoalves
We have not achieved gender-role balance, we just attributed to women all the
qualities a capitalistic, highly-competitive society values in traditional men
roles.

~~~
lostlogin
Yes, but with significantly less pay. New Zealand is doing comparatively well
-and pays its females approximately 10% less than its males. Pretty pathetic
stuff.
[http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap)

------
alan_cx
I have always thought that a lot of so called strong female characters in TV
and movies are essentially, to a greater and lesser degree, a male submissive
fantasy, and nothing to do with feminism or equal status.

The trick to getting it right might well be to just let decent female writers
write female characters. Heh, at least then if we still get the same, it their
fault!!!!

~~~
lostlogin
>it's their fault! Females can be their own worst enemies. My wife was
recently asked at a job interview when she planned on having children. This is
against the law here in New Zealand. The person who asked was female and the
males in the room visibly squirmed as it was asked.

~~~
rustynails
No offense, the men were thinking it. If the project had a hard deadline in a
few years, any respective employer would think through this option. Failure to
do so (under certain circumstances) could cost you dearly. This is despite
"what the law allows you to say".

~~~
saraid216
I like how you immediately made up a bunch of circumstances to justify it.

------
geoka9
> What do I want instead of a Strong Female Character? I want a male:female
> character ratio of 1:1 instead of 3:1 on our screens.

It's going to be hard. What are the highest grossing movies? Fantasy/sci-fi
and crime thrillers? That means you will have to put up with all the just
ratio movies being fantasy, because it's hard to come up with a typical
convincing crime thriller plot where there are as many women as men.

Realistic films try to portray the reality. If producers start following a
feminist agenda, they'll have to sacrifice that. For example, are there many
female undercover police officers? Are there many notorious female gangsters?
What about bank robbers?

~~~
saraid216
> Realistic films try to portray the reality.

Heh. No, they don't. We call it fiction because it's fictional.

What you're really saying is that, as a culture, we're incapable of believing
something if it doesn't conform to certain expectations. Which, yes, includes
being unable to believe that women might be undercover cops, might be
notorious gangsters, might be bank robbers.

Funny story: that's _exactly the problem_.

~~~
geoka9
> Which, yes, includes being unable to believe that women might be undercover
> cops, might be notorious gangsters, might be bank robbers.

Really, are there many prototypes in real life? I suspect there may be enough
to inspire a handful of movies, but after that it will become obvious that
it's a niche film.

~~~
saraid216
Why do you need prototypes? Do you personally know any undercover cops,
notorious gangsters, or bank robbers? Is there something particularly gendered
about these roles that requires a man to play them?

~~~
geoka9
Most of the crime movies I like are based on real events. As many of those
movies also tend to become classics, I think my preference is not that
peculiar.

Do you really suggest that authors should be obliged to cast at least 50% of
roles as females even when it does not reflect the reality being portrayed?
Why? Just to make a case for feminism? Don't you think it would hurting the
equality cause in the first place?

~~~
saraid216
> Most of the crime movies I like are based on real events.

Tell you what. Provide some examples so that I can actually work through one
and explain how it could have been adequately feminist without detracting from
your entertainment. It would be helpful if it has a Wikipedia article
detailing the original real life inspiration, since I don't know anything
about this subject.

> Do you really suggest that authors should be obliged to cast at least 50% of
> roles as females even when it does not reflect the reality being portrayed?

Nope. As long as any females present in the movie are portrayed with equal
realism, it's fine. This is virtually never the case. I recently read a 2009
feminist critique of _The Wire_ which noted that despite Snoop and Kima,
females were depicted fairly poorly overall. I love _The Wire_. But they were
right.

One of the biggest hurdles with feminism in entertainment is that the problem
isn't with _particular_ movies. It's that the _crushingly overwhelming
majority_ of the movies are sexist. So you find that no one is willing to be
the first person to decide to not be sexist, because you're breaking the mold.
It wouldn't be terrible if only, say, 20% of movies were sexist. But the
percentage is closer to 90, 95.

Just like video games are only for boys, so of course they're all male
fantasies. Or comic books are only for boys, so of course they're all male
fantasies.

------
tokipin
I used to think all the fuss about women being treated differently was in
large part an exaggeration in this day and age. But then a few months ago I
woke up from a dream vision of Storm (from the X-Men movies) being 'strong'.
Weird because I've never even seen the movies. But the "strength" was forced
and farcical in the absence of actual depth of character.

What struck me was that that was a fairly subtle observation, nevermind
examples of e.g. discrimination that is much more obvious. So that vision
raised the question of what _else_ had eluded my perception, and made clear
that there is still a lot of progress to be made.

~~~
saraid216
I don't understand what you mean by Storm being strong or not strong. She's a
claustrophobic mutant with massive self-esteem issues that have to be overcome
in order to provide effective team leadership.

The thing about Storm's story is that it's unexceptional amongst the X-Men.
The essential narrative of X-Men is "teenagers have growing pains", so self-
esteem issues are the stories' bread and butter.

The _other_ essential narrative, that of fearing and Othering a group for
ambiguously poor reasons, is one which Storm could provide an interesting
voice for if any of her writers weren't busy making her the token black girl.
The dialogue between Xavier and Magneto is reminiscent MLK Jr. versus Malcolm
X (not exactly, of course, but I'd be unsurprised if this was a direct
inspiration).

~~~
tokipin
As I said, I've never seen the movies (or read the comic books, for that
matter), so I don't know what in the bonkers you're saying. It's just the fact
that it was a female character being portrayed in a particular way. I probably
should have been clearer about that.

~~~
saraid216
I don't understand how you even know who Storm is.

~~~
tokipin
Yea, it is weird. The dream was probably inspired by an X-Men trailer I must
have seen, but I don't know why Storm was singled out. Though I've had enough
practice with dreams to know the recursive detail-filling manner in which my
brain makes them, so the answer is probably mundane, like maybe I saw two
bright things and my brain knew that Storm's eyes glow bright so it filled in
the rest with Storm.

------
lotharbot
Strong female characters in fiction are often neither genuinely female, nor
genuinely strong -- it's as though "strongfemale" is its own type of being.
It's a character with a mostly-male personality, lots of curves revealed by a
tight-fitting outfit, and the only bit of feminine personality that comes
through is a flighty, childish crush on one of the male leads.

I know plenty of genuinely strong women. My wife, my mother in law, the
principal at my son's school, and so on. These are people who can handle tough
situations, who show genuine leadership qualities, and so on. I've also been
delighted by a few strong female characters in modern media -- Shu Lien in
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon; half of the main characters on My Little Pony:
Friendship is Magic; Zoey from Firefly; Delenn, Ivanova, and Lyta from Babylon
5. One thing they all have in common is that they have real, feminine
personalities and real strength that doesn't overshadow their personalities.

~~~
dragontamer
Agreed. The internet community has dubbed these the "Faux Action Girls":
[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FauxActionGirl](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FauxActionGirl)

"Faux Action Girls" generally stop fighting when their wrists are grabbed, or
when they get into the famous "Long-Hair Choke Hold" (erm... since when is
hair a weak-point of the human body??).

I can come up with tons and tons of examples of "Faux action girls", but there
are indeed plenty of genuine heroines.

Samus Aran (before the crappy game Metroid: Other M) was a true female Action
heroine. She was rarely sexualized and _got shit done_. Its only in the modern
era (ironically, after year 2000 or so) when she began to be sexualized with
her Zero-suit and crappy love stories --- Uggghhh... Metroid Other M :-(

~~~
lotharbot
The negative type I was referencing would more appropriately be called "Action
Faux Girl" \-- plenty of in-combat competence, but the only thing that
identifies the character as female is her large bust. Her personality and
dialog sounds like it was written by a man, possibly as a target for his own
adolescent fantasies.

~~~
hrkristian
Do the main target audience for action films want to watch and listen to a
female character who sports a typical "female personality" as written by a
woman, though? I don't know if I want Monica from FRIENDS shooting nazis in
WW2, I should think that'd kind of ruin the movie for me.

~~~
dragontamer
Magical Girl animes are pretty famous for emphasizing female personality
stories. Madoka Magicka had romance and friendship. Of course, it didn't stop
the magical girls from kicking ass once in a while:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDYea3qPzSU](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDYea3qPzSU)

Here: Sayaka is struggling with the reality of her situation. She has recently
learned that she has her very soul has been ripped out of her. Without her
soul, it is harder for Sayaka to feel the pains of conflict, both emotionally
and physically. (By the end of the above fight scene, she has learned to
regenerate her body, since the absence of her soul negates all pain she feels
when her body is attacked).

Her newfound ability to negate the feel of pain also negates her ability to
feel intimate with Kyosuke. The implications of Sayaka's realization to "no
longer feel any pain" ultimately drain on her psyche... and lead to an
interesting situation regarding the romantic relationship between Sayaka and
Kyosuke.

~~~
hrkristian
The anime genre isn't exactly known for its correct representation of the real
world.

~~~
dragontamer
You bring this up when the subject includes Superman... a nearly invulnerable
alien wearing Red and Blue spandex who can absorb the sun's energy, and who's
only weakness is a rock that was found inside of his spaceship from when he
was delivered to earth.

Yeah, right. Most movies aren't known for correct representations of the real
world. But _good_ movies explore human emotions: romance, tragedy, adventure,
etc. etc.

------
Tycho
The SFC is a bit bland, but not as annoying as the 'hotshot.' You know, the
incredibly attractive yet unattached 30-something career woman who just
happens to be the best damn pilot/hacker/narco/sniper/pathologist/demolition-
expert on the team, and a convenient love interest for the maverick male lead.

~~~
mixmastamyk
They simply don't appear to exist in the US (especially the west) but I've met
a few in Europe, South America.

------
Amadou
So, off the top of my head I can think of these female lead roles who are
'strong' and a whole lot more, including sometimes vulnerable, weak,
contradictory and even capricious:

Carrie from Homeland // Sookie from True Blood // Sonya from The Bridge //
Sarah from The Killing // Jackie from Nurse Jackie // Tara from United States
of Tara

All of those are TV shows, not movies. But I think that is just my own bias, I
have a hard time remembering characters in movies because I only get ~90
minutes of exposure, compared to 450-1000 minutes a year with TV.

One point in support of the argument though -- Sucker Punch which was
primarily a female cast, had to cut the most pivotal scene in the entire movie
where the lead choses sex & death of her mental self rather than fighting
because, despite not being explicit, it was the difference between a PG-13 and
an R rating.

~~~
Tichy
Jodie Foster, Sigourney Weaver, Merryl Streep come to mind - are they the
wrong kind of strong?

Miss Maple was a famous literary detective.

~~~
rustynails
Great list. Add Judi Dench, Renee Zellweger, Cate Blanchett, Helen Mirren,
Maggie Smith, the list is quite big...

As I mentioned in another post, you see what you want to see ("victim
mentality").

------
IvyMike
I wonder what McDougall thinks of Elementary, the Sherlock Holmes show where
Watson is played by Lucy Liu. The show still has some of the problems
McDougall mentions, but it's the most interesting and complex version of
Watson I've seen.

(SPOILERS: Anyone who watched the entire season knows that there's more to be
said regarding female characters, but there's no way to discuss it without
ruining a major plot point.)

------
saraid216
A little more of the same thing:

[http://feministing.com/2013/08/20/the-skyler-white-
problem-c...](http://feministing.com/2013/08/20/the-skyler-white-problem-can-
we-accept-complex-female-characters/)

~~~
Tichy
Funny sentence in the first paragraph: "I agree that female characters in pop
fiction rarely get to be full, complex people".

Maybe she shouldn't be reading so much pop fiction if she craves complex
characters...

------
Tichy
Edit: Downvotes for what? Is it really enough to select a few movie posters
with more men than women on it to confirm a theory?

How many thousands of movies are there? Does this analysis really hold any
water at all? I seem to remember movies with all kinds of female characters.
So I suspect that article just picks some unfavorable movies and makes a fuss.

Apart from that, there may be real world reasons for less women being
"heroes", that is, putting themselves into the line of fire. The simple reason
being that they don't have to.

~~~
saraid216
> I seem to remember movies with all kinds of female characters.

I'd challenge you to provide an equal number of counterexamples, then.

> Downvotes for what?

Your last paragraph is blatant sexism, fyi.

~~~
Tichy
"provide an equal number of counterexamples, then."

Equal number to what? What is the number we are looking at - did anybody even
count anything here? I already mentioned several female action heroes in other
comments, like Underworld, Resident Evil, Buffy, Dark Angel, Aliens, Aeon
Flux, Nikita. If you only count movies that are actually worthwhile, the
comparison to male hero movies is not bad (I can only compare to mostly
worthwhile movies).

Also some things don't make sense, as somebody pointed out, WW2 didn't have
that many female soldiers, so why would you expect 50% of WW2 movies to be
about female soldiers? You could go on and complain that there are too many
WW2 movies, but that is hardly convincing as a feminist issue.

"Your last paragraph is blatant sexism, fyi."

It's not actually. Would "women have boobs" also be a controversial statement?
It is very obvious that it is easier for women to reproduce than for men, and
it is statistically proven. Just because you can't see it (like boobs hanging
off a person) doesn't mean some difference does not exist.

Men get to do the life threatening jobs because men are more expendable. Women
are the limiting factor in reproduction (only about one baby can be produced
every nine months per woman).

It doesn't mean that women can't do life threatening jobs, just that there is
a reason they usually don't have to.

If it is sexist to assume that there are differences between men and women,
then maybe it was sexist. Then I'd have to say I'd rather be sexist and stick
to science than give up logic for ideology.

Edit: I wonder what is the feminist explanation for less women doing risky
jobs? The patriarchy doesn't want women to be cannon fodder because they could
start believing they can be aggressive and revolt against men? Or really just
the media - if more female warrior movies were being made, women would be
flocking to the military by the millions?

~~~
saraid216
> Edit: I wonder what is the feminist explanation for less women doing risky
> jobs? The patriarchy doesn't want women to be cannon fodder because they
> could start believing they can be aggressive and revolt against men? Or
> really just the media - if more female warrior movies were being made, women
> would be flocking to the military by the millions?

[http://aidanmoher.com/blog/featured-article/2013/05/we-
have-...](http://aidanmoher.com/blog/featured-article/2013/05/we-have-always-
fought-challenging-the-women-cattle-and-slaves-narrative-by-kameron-hurley/)

~~~
Tichy
That link isn't really relevant. It's about probabilities. Of course women can
pick up a gun, or make fancy careers, or murder people, or abuse kids, or
whatever else you can imagine. The likelihoods for them doing it is differrent
than for men, and the reason is partially in incentives.

------
dragontamer
Maybe its the stuff that I watch, but I've just finished reviewing "Neon
Genesis Evangelion" where Ritsuko describes the super-computer system that
runs Nerv. The three computers are dubbed "Three Magi" (and named after the
Biblical characters), and the whole base refers to their judgement in all
things. The three computers were designed after Dr. Naoko Akagi's personality
(Ritsuko's mother):

* She as a Scientist * She as a Mother * She as a Woman

It was Caspar, the supercomputer built after Dr. Naoko's personality as a
"Woman" who defeated the 11th angel (with assistance of Dr. Ritsuko, the
current maintainer of the supercomputers).

\-------------

In more recent games, Portal and Portal 2 are famous for the female character
and female villain. GladOS, the evil supercomputer, is more than just cunning,
she is meticulous, calculating, scientific. She is driven by experimentation
and wants nothing more than to discover more about science.

\---------------

Saber, of the Fate series, is gender-crossed King Author who magically has
teleported to the modern era. (In Fate series, King Author was always female,
but history books have rewritten that fact). Cheezy, I know, but she's a great
character. She is chivalrous, honorable, and a "fair fighter" above all.
Though the series, she contemplates her miscalculations at the end of her
reign. She was forced to kill her own child (Moldred), and her last memories
of the era was her left dying on the battlefield (before magic teleported her
into the modern era).

Ironic, because Saber is originally from a Japanese Visual Novel H-Game. But
her character is deep, beyond just "strong". Granted, she is very very
"strong". She is arguably the most powerful Servant who was summoned in the
5th War, and certainly stronger than the "Master" who summoned her. But her
character goes far far deeper than just "I'm stronger than you".

Although, her interactions in the 4th War (Fate/Zero) were definitely better
written. As Saber, the honorable king of knights, is forced to fight along
side Kiritsugu (who is willing to use underhanded techniques, including ones
that may kill and maim innocent bystanders).

\------------

People tell me Laura Croft was a good character in the recent game. I haven't
gone through it yet though, so I can't comment on it.

\-----------

I mean, yeah, fiction is filled with crappy _male_ heroes who are nothing but
"strong". The article brings up Superman, and also brings up Buffy. (I argue
Xena, Warrior Princess, is a better 90s example of a poorly written "strong"
female character however). These are all shallow characters, be they female or
male. It simply isn't fair to compare Sherlock Holmes against such crappy
characters.

But entertainment is about finding and highlighting the best characters across
all genres of fiction. It seems to me that the one who wrote this article just
isn't familiar with any stories with interesting and unique female characters.

To which I respond: he's certainly not watching / reading the same stuff I've
been seeing.

~~~
fennecfoxen
Merida (of Pixar's _Brave_ ) was proud, rebellious, impulsive; she endangered
the well-being of those around her, and was slow to take responsibility for
her mistakes. Not bad. :P

~~~
dragontamer
I dunno. It might have to me not really liking the plot of Brave (wtf was
going on with the Bears???). I guess the character was fine, but mostly
forgettable IMO.

A better character would be Aisling from "Secret of Kells". She was proud and
impulsive Fae, a being of nature. She has lost her family in a war against
Crom, the pegan god of Ireland before Christianity arrived. She assists
Brendan, a Catholic Scribe in training, in completing his task of writing the
Book of Kells (One of the first written Illuminated Bibles of Ireland. An
artifact enscribed during the Dark Ages and survives today in the a museum in
Dublin).

She wasn't the main character, but she's the "White Wolf", a Fae of the
Forest, a wise being who has seen many things from many ages... and is the
narrator of the trailer.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMPhHTtKZ8Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMPhHTtKZ8Q)

I believe she's the only character to fell a Viking (which makes sense. The
rest of the cast are basically monks and scribes. Aside from the Vikings and
Aisling, no one has combat abilities of any note).

------
rustynails
Where do I begin? Great and terrible article. Riddled with victim mentality
(bad), but desire to improve story telling of movies with a very narrow focus
(somewhat good).

Here's an example of victim mentality, but not from the author's perspective.
\- why are the villains in movies often English or German. Discrimination! \-
why don't we have Australian heroes in movies? Australian actors are forced to
change their accents and nationalities... It's disgusting... It's xenophobic!

Now take those examples with a grain of salt. I don't have a victim mentality
that insists on x% of movie heroes being Australian ... It's superficial and
mandates others on what they must think.

I remember a gay author who was told to add more straight characters - the one
story of his that I heard kept on referring to a straight dog.. When I asked
my gay friend about the importance of a "straight" dog, he explained the back
story of the mandate... The dark side to political correctness.

Here's where I partially agree with the author. Black Widow and the other
"Rambo in slacks" were pathetic characters by Joss Whedon - some of the worst
I've ever seen. Arrogant, rude, completely self-absorbed and able to take down
20 "baddies" at the same time with their bare hands. Remember Stallone as
Rambo? Well, Joss Whedon thinks that adding slacks makes Rambo a better
character... Yeah, right. But rather than see "sexism" and "insistence of 50%
female leads", I see "crap writing", "area for improvement" and "lost
opportunity". Let the writers decide what gender a character is... But
highlight opportunities for thinking out of the box (go Aussie heroes ;)

Having said all of that, I'm a huge fan of Legend of Korra. Korra is a
believable heroine who retains her femininity and humility: brilliant writing.
Lin Bei Fong: a tough as nails woman that shows compassion and vulnerability.
Many writers and directors could learn a think or two from Di Martino and
Koneitzko (the Korra writers).

One of my other heroes is JK Rowling. In her Potterverse, she chose to have a
balance of 50% male/female characters that were fairly well balanced. It
worked very well and did not detract from the story. If anything, it added
credibility. It was important (at least to me) that the characters made sense,
more than what their gender was.

In summary, the referenced article is a thinly veilled feminist (sexist) piece
that dictates too much and is too narrowly focused (aka feminism). I agree
that female characters are usually poorly written and I love when I see female
characters written well.

Then again, I'd also love to see corporate bankers held accountable, NSA
snooping to be reigned in and sexism (from feminists or otherwise) being
denounced ... I have my doubts that any of these wishes will come true.

~~~
rayiner
My 9 month old displays better logical reasoning skills than evidenced in this
post.

> Here's an example of victim mentality, but not from the author's
> perspective. - why are the villains in movies often English or German.
> Discrimination! - why don't we have Australian heroes in movies?

The difference is, only a tiny fraction of people in the U.S. are Australian,
while a slight majority of the population is women. A rational example would
be if 90% of American movies had Australians in lead roles. In that situation,
you'd be right to wonder what the hell was going on!

> thinly veilled feminist (sexist) piece that dictates too much and is too
> narrowly focused (aka feminism)

Feminism = sexism is doublespeak.

------
D9u
That the article deals with fictional characters doesn't lend it much credence
in my view.

Does the author "hate" Grace Hopper as well?

~~~
kiba
The whole article is about fictional characters, not real life female heroes.

