
Show HN: Tired of mobile games with IAP and ads, I made No-Bullshit Games - StavrosK
https://nobsgames.stavros.io/
======
franze
Here is my contribution (a webapp, a.k.a. a website)
[http://lalo.li/lsd/](http://lalo.li/lsd/) coded it years ago mostly drunk on
an island in Thailand, I now like to play it again on my iPad with iPencil.

Github:
[https://github.com/franzenzenhofer/lsd](https://github.com/franzenzenhofer/lsd)
(Warning: a single, dependency less CoffeeScript source file)

~~~
joshstrange
Reminds me a bit of Jezzball (old game that shipped with windows) [0]

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD6GQJxHh7E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD6GQJxHh7E)

~~~
teddyh
This style of gameplay goes all the way back to Qix from 1981:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qix](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qix)

~~~
joshstrange
Wow, never heard of this game (unsurprising as it came out a decade before I
was born). I was able to play it here [0]. Arrows to move, spacebar to be able
to leave the edge. Very cool!

[0] [https://playclassic.games/games/action-dos-games-
online/play...](https://playclassic.games/games/action-dos-games-online/play-
qix-online/play/)

~~~
teddyh
That link is to an emulation of an _MS-DOS port_ of the original arcade. You
can play the emulated _original_ stand-up arcade game here:

[https://archive.org/details/arcade_qix](https://archive.org/details/arcade_qix)

Press F3 to choose language, then use 5 to insert coins, 1 to start 1 player
game. Use cursor keys to move along existing lines, use Ctrl+cursor keys to
draw fast, use Alt+cursor keys to draw slowly.

~~~
joshstrange
Good catch! Thank you for posting this. It's really crazy to be playing games
I played when I was a kid (Not this game but other MS-DOS or Arcade games) in
the freaking browser...

------
tomclive
Great idea. I really enjoyed Angry Birds when it first came out and when my
children asked about to install it on their devices I said this was fine. I
couldn't find the original Angry Birds so installed Angry Birds 2. What an
awful convoluted mess it was. Instead of a simple, fun physics-based game it's
full of lives, spells, bad level design and in-app purchases.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
I played the original to death "back in the day" so I'm really sad to hear
that they went down this route. Probably also explains why nobody talks about
Angry Birds anymore.

~~~
jakemal
There was an Angry Birds movie released within the last couple of years. It's
still extremely popular.

~~~
celticmusic
it was legitimately a good movie. I would've gone to see the sequel despite
never having played any of their games.

------
mittermayr
Top idea. Really really nice. I recently loaded up a blank Android phone with
dozens and dozens of games, pretty much anything I could find for a 12h
flight, only to realize most of them were an absolute horror show of IAPs and
requiring internet connectivity for no apparent reason. So after you've grown
this list (and it already looks amazing, excellent work!) maybe worthwhile
considering to add an additional "works offline" flag, including the first
start of the game. That would've been amazing to have. Either way — you've
cracked the secret: make something people want (and saves them a lot of time).

~~~
StavrosK
This is a great idea that lots of people have requested, and it's easy to add
technically, the problem is in the messaging. The only way I get feedback now
is through the "add new game" form, and in that you can tell me the reason for
adding the game. However, "works offline" is a nice bit of info rather than a
reason to add the game, so I don't exactly know where to ask for that...

~~~
johnrackles
Maybe just include a checkbox where people submit the info?

~~~
StavrosK
Good idea, thanks! I'll add that soon.

------
mangoman
Honestly, I wouldn't mind ads if they weren't so obtrusive. a simple ad on a
loading screen isn't the end of the world to me. What's annoying is trying to
tap a tiny 'x', unskippable video ads, ads that try to fingerprint my device,
ads that slow down my machine, ads with volume, time limiting play unless you
buy an IAP (when there's no option for just buying unlimited time for a
reasonable price)

I want game devs to be able to make a living, but there's a difference between
game devs who responsibly put in monetization and game devs just trying to
squeeze every last cent through deceit and manipulation.

~~~
wtetzner
Why not just charge money for games? Seems like a reasonable way for them to
make money...

~~~
fredsanford
Then you create a soft ceiling and miss out on the whales that will spend $1K
a month to have a shinier hat.

~~~
Zenst
Yes many of those games litterly throw their freemium players as cannon fodder
to those whales.

Few get the balance right and many will always tip one way on the odd patch,
pandering to the whales - who after all - spend money.

Though the games that just offer hats and other cosmetics, well, you have to
love those and certainly a solution that appeases all and rich fools are not
to be scoffed at in such games as they are paying for it to carry on.

------
giarc
I echo the others here, Thanks! I have young kids and we let them use tablets
on long trips, vacations, airplane rides. Finding games for them is
impossible. They are too young to understand when characters, levels, items
are locked. It seems like every 2 minutes they get stuck on some ad screen
with a hidden X. I just want a game that when I pay $4, I get the full game.
It doesn't even have to be a big, intensive game. My kids would be happy with
a finger painting game, as long as all the colouring sheets and paint brushes
are available.

~~~
nrb
If you’re in the Apple ecosystem, Apple Arcade is pretty great for this. Every
game on it is an actual game, no IAP or ads.

~~~
severine
Sorry to be snarky, but if they were on the "Apple ecosystem" they wouldn't
call a tablet "a tablet"...

~~~
csande17
On Android, Google recently launched their own version of Apple Arcade:
[https://play.google.com/about/play-pass/](https://play.google.com/about/play-
pass/)

I haven't personally tried it, but it claims there are no ads or in-app
purchases, and the catalog includes a bunch of classic kids' games.

------
japhyr
I would like to build an app that's a series of games, that are all related. I
want to use the freemium model, with a one-time payment. No ads, no
subscriptions; once you pay, you own the entire game.

What's a better model for this? A single app with a one-time IAP; or two apps,
where one is free with no ads or IAPs, but there's a link to a separate paid
app with no IAPs?

It seems there's no way to distinguish easily when you're looking at the App
Store whether IAP means a reasonable one time purchase for the full game, or a
series of predatory IAPs. So having any IAP at all seems to turn off a lot of
people. But I'm not sure two separate apps is the best approach either.

~~~
idclip
Thats actually just old school selling a game. For cash, once, no DLCs, no
running costs.

Which is actually awesome.

My first games were Quake, and Quake2. I enjoyed shilling out the cash just
once. Bought expansions as budget allowed and was always excited to.

More power to you honestly.

Edit: duck ads.

~~~
pierrec
The question was how to implement the freemium/shareware model in apps. It's
important to understand that this model can make a lot of sense, for example
in the case of weird and experimental games, where it avoids people wasting
their money on something they won't like and leaving disgruntled reviews. It
also encourages people to try something new. One approach is to have a single
IAP and make the pricing obvious.

~~~
idclip
I honestly don't think freemium/Ads are a good model.

I understand what you mean, and i think the model pursued by old games was
less toxic. They simply released shareware ... just 10% of the game for anyone
to try.

Freemium/Ads works well for addicting things, and im not sure how the negative
effects of what’s done there can be honestly counter acted.

So its not that i don’t think that the model generates less money, its just
burning down the house.

------
offsky
I built a site that’s adjacent to this idea (www.darkpattern.games). It
catalogs the dark patterns found in mobile games. Premium currency and ads are
two of them but there are many more. The idea is that you could educate
yourself so the dark patterns have less power over you and also you can browse
the site to find good games that don’t have dark patterns.

~~~
cableshaft
That's a pretty well done site, thanks for taking the time to make it.

I don't think that all 'dark patterns' are necessarily always bad, especially
after seeing everything that made your list, as you have "Complete the
Collection" as an example.

While I think that it can definitely be abused and does belong on the list, I
do think collecting things can be part of the fun of games for people, and
that's been in games pretty much since games moved from the arcades into the
home consoles.

Like platform games are often 'Collectathons', and one of my favorite games of
all time, Yoshi's Island on Super Nintendo, has 5 collectible flowers and 20
red coins (and you have to do it with full health at the end of the level) to
get up to 100 points for every single level. One of the things I love to do in
that game is try to get the full 100 points in as many levels as possible.

Another one is Badges, which is similar to Collections, but you're collecting
the completion of goals instead. Personally I loved when Xbox 360 introduced
Achievements, and I still wish the Switch offered them. When done right, it
can leave a lasting demonstration of how much I enjoyed the game. Of course
there's some stupid, grindy, super time consuming garbage that borderlines on
player abuse for them, so I agree they qualify as a dark pattern, but I don't
think they're inherently or always a bad thing and something game developers
should always avoid if they want to make a game that wouldn't make the bad
side of your list.

A lot of these dark patterns I do think are probably always annoying and a bad
experience, though, like "Wait to Play".

~~~
VRay
I don't know how I feel about labeling achievements, grinding, and leveling up
as dark patterns

I guess they do technically exploit people's psychological weaknesses to make
games more addictive than they'd be otherwise.. if you take all of those out,
though, the classic Final Fantasy SNES games are basically just pixel art
comic books

~~~
tripzilch
I mean, I don't like all types of games. What may feel grinding to me, might
be fun for somebody else?

In fact, I sometimes enjoy watching other people have fun, even if it would be
grinding for me. Also helps that they're usually just better at it :)

------
franga2000
Haven't had time to look through the list, but this is exactly what I've been
looking for. While I don't play mobile games myself, my (older) relatives do a
lot, but since something like the 10th time a scam ad almost got my
grandmother to lose 300€, I no longer install anything with ads on their
devices. It took me almost an hour to find a bullshit-free solitaire game in
the Play Store. It took exactly 3 seconds here.

~~~
StavrosK
Thanks, I'm glad you like it! I was expecting to have to curate this list
myself and that people wouldn't submit much, but I've found a bunch of amazing
games just by reviewing the submissions (including the Solitaire game you're
talking about, if I'm not mistaken).

------
exikyut
This is awesome, but I'm _going_ to forget it exists, so: please take my email
address and feed me notifications about when new games get added. (I might
want to be notified immediately, weekly, or every N months.)

Besides that, some minor nitpicks:

\- Infinite scrolling would be very nice to have

\- The ability to sort the columns by clicking the headers (eg, reviews) might
be useful

\- I have some, uh, _really_ old devices here that I continue to use. One is
on Android 5. There are probably only like 4 people out there that will
appreciate seeing a game's minimum Android version, but they'll _really_
appreciate it

\- I kind of think surfacing screenshots or description info _might_ be
interesting, but that's probably because I'm on 256k slowed internet right now
and am loathe to click links (lol) but want to compare/get more info about
each game

Also: something interesting is going on with the rating filtering. If I type
in "4.8" and select Free under Android, I see 3 items; trying "4.7" gets me a
total of 6 4.8-rated items.

~~~
StavrosK
Thank you!

> please take my email address and feed me notifications about when new games
> get added

Hmm, that might be a bit spammy, do you have an RSS reader? Maybe I could add
a feed.

> Infinite scrolling would be very nice to have

I had something similar before but people complained that they lost their
place when clicking on apps to go to the store. Maybe that's fine now that
they open in a new tab, I'll rethink that.

> The ability to sort the columns by clicking the headers (eg, reviews) might
> be useful

Yep, that's something I removed when I added the filtering system and that I
need to add back, thanks.

> something interesting is going on with the rating filtering. If I type in
> "4.8" and select Free under Android, I see 3 items

Hmm, that's odd. I will investigate, thanks!

~~~
exikyut
I never ended up using RSS, but it seems a lot of others do, so perhaps this
is a good idea. As for email, considering the general "success" (???) of
signup boxes on websites, I get the impression (not having added such a box
anywhere yet) that maybe this is the lowest common denominator solution for
notifications in non- to semi-technical situations. Maybe a free email
solution could be used to test the waters here, with the send rate options
limited to every 1-2 months.

And perhaps infinite scrolling could be combined with history.replaceState()
([https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/API/History/rep...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/API/History/replaceState)) to keep the URL in sync.

------
givinguflac
This is why I’ve embraced Apple Arcade... it’s inexpensive and no games have
in app purchases or ads it’s great

~~~
nottorp
Too bad it's not targeted towards gamers :)

~~~
ssully
What do you mean?

~~~
nottorp
I've taken a look at their launch list and it's 90% casual stuff with very
simple mechanics that I'm not interested in.

My main entertainment has been video games for more than 30 years so I either
need a story, complex systems i can mess with or maybe a reflex challenge.

Edit: Say, where can I find a complete list of the games they offer? I just
checked their page and they seem very secretive about it. Another sign that
it's targeted at parents buying something for the kids to shut them up :)

~~~
ssully
So by "not targeted at gamers" you just mean that they don't have games you
are interested in?

I've really enjoyed my time with Apple Arcade. Before it launched, it was
becoming difficult to find a decent mobile game that wasn't 100% supported by
ad's. I haven't loved all the games they offered, but I've played about 5 so
far that I would have paid full price for if they weren't offered in the
service.

------
stevage
Strong suggestion: define "IAP"

I'm always amazed how many sites like this make wild assumptions about the
domain knowledege of all the people that might come across the site. I _think_
"IAP" is "in-app purchases", but just make that clear. And a better statement
about what constitutes "bullshit" and whis is the correct definition would
help a lot.

Also, why not also include mobile web games like 2048?

~~~
StavrosK
Done, thanks! Mobile web games are harder to include because there's no app
store to get data from.

------
riantogo
I would request you to consider web apps as well. I tried submitting
[http://arcadejack.com](http://arcadejack.com) but no luck. Here is what I had
entered as comment: "Consider this no-bullshit math game to help kids practice
math. Free, no iap, no login. Everything is stored locally."

Edit: Still super early in dev and pin for "grown up" tab is 1222

~~~
StavrosK
I'm afraid that's next to impossible as it would require too much manual work,
but thanks for the recommendation!

------
mattcdrake
Thanks for making this, really. Phone games seem to be a sort of gateway drug
for video games and it's a shame that most of them are so laden with
microtransactions and attention-hacks. Anything that can steer people away
from heroin-adjacent mobile games toward games with substance is a great
product in my book. Nice job.

~~~
ansible
I think it would make a fascinating study on how mobile gaming turned into
this, when PC and console gaming (while suffering from _some_ of this) is
still viable for people who just want to buy a game and play it without
shenanigans.

~~~
Nasrudith
I recall hearing back in the day iPhones were newer and dedicated mobile
webpages were a functional matter, and the iPhone lacked serious competitors
some web storefronts would abuse browser charge higher prices for iPhone
browsers because they read it as a signal for more disposable
income/willingness to pay more.

The "luxury start" for a non-dedicated game device combined with the payment
platform intergration of an app store was likely the original sin which turned
the mobile game development culture that particular flavor of toxic. Of course
that was also probably partly what got them developer buy in to their niche
platform - the money.

------
nottorp
Sometimes I hate that I can give only one upvote to a story.

Back when the iPad 1 was new, I was actually playing games on mine. Then
everything turned into a mess of IAP bullshit and now I don't even _look_ at
mobile game releases any more. Hopefully this site will help me find something
to play.

------
zwegner
Cool list!

I'll throw in one I made for myself and never really showed to anyone. It's a
clone of Unblock Me/Rush Hour, but with no ads and undo+redo support. It's
only a website since I don't want to bother with app stores (I just save the
page to my home screen).

[https://zwegner.github.io/slidey-blocky-
thingy/base.html](https://zwegner.github.io/slidey-blocky-thingy/base.html)

The puzzle variety isn't great, my generation method sorta sucks. I had
started to build an exhaustive generator after reading Michael Fogleman's
article[1] on it, but haven't finished.

[https://www.michaelfogleman.com/rush/](https://www.michaelfogleman.com/rush/)

~~~
severine
What's the objective of the game? I haven't played Unblock Me or Rush Hour.

~~~
zwegner
Ah yes, this would be kind of confusing in that case :)

Simply put, it's to move the blue-greenish block off the right side of the
grid. You clear the path by moving all the other pieces around as necessary.
Each piece can only slide horizontally or vertically, depending on its
orientation (they move along their longer dimension).

~~~
severine
Haha cool! I'm on puzzle 5 with a lousy record, thanks for the fun.

~~~
severine
Puzzle 10, 5 elevens :)

------
aphit
Any reason why the Genre filter field is a text input rather than a dropdown?
I went to look at the Genres available to see which ones I might like but the
only way I can see to do this is by scrolling through the pages to look at the
available options.

~~~
StavrosK
Yes, Apple games can belong in multiple genres and it was easier to do it this
way, but I'm probably going to make it a dropdown since it's more usable.

~~~
PenguinCoder
Possibly make it a tag selector for easy multiple selection. You could then
leave it a text input that sort of auto completes a tag name and adds it to
the search filter

~~~
StavrosK
That's a good idea, but then I worry that it would narrow the results too
much. Not that big a deal, since you can just remove a tag again, but I'll
have to play around with it and see.

------
awill
I feel this is a google/apple problem. They need to celebrate and advertise
premium games more. Instead, we're stuck in a world where most games are
fremium with tons of ads or IAPs, or subscriptions..... It sucks to be a
gamer.

I've seen some games that are on both Switch and Android. The Android one has
ridiculous IAPs, and Switch is a one-time purchase. I get that it isn't the
developer's fault. Premium games don't sell well on Android. But it sucks none
the less.

Remember how Angry birds and Cut the Rope used to be good? Now they're a
disgrace, full of video ads. And for most of them you cannot pay a single fee
to remove.

~~~
thebigspacefuck
Some games like Churchill Solitaire require you to pay $5 for the game, but
then it doesn't unlock all of the campaign, you have to pay $1 for every 25
after that, then you have to pay to UNDO A MOVE or even get a hint. Then daily
games are another $5 a month. So much BS even if you want to buy the game.

------
farisjarrah
Would you be open to adding other Genre's of applications in there? iPad has
no built in Calculater application and it has been a beyond infuriating
experience simply finding a non-bullshit one without any adds or anything.

------
splatcollision
Thanks! Awesome idea. My son and I have started our own "game studio" for iOS,
and I've submitted our first game, Barrel of DNA:
[https://apps.apple.com/us/app/barrel-of-
dna/id1460483070?ls=...](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/barrel-of-
dna/id1460483070?ls=1)

One of our main design principles is to charge a fair price and never do any
ads, tracking or IAP's. The idea is to be contrary to the vast swathes of crap
that is out there...

------
csours
Its awesome to see kitten game[0] on here! I had no idea it was released as an
app. For stuff like this, I'll buy it even if I never plan to play it on the
device, to support the creator for the time I've spent on the free version.

[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nuclearuni...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nuclearunicorn.kittensgame)

------
Nothorized
I recently changed my relation with video games. I used to play a lot of FIFA
(or Football Manager), which are games who are just here to entertain
yourself, but there is no backstory at all. Now I see video games as reading a
book, or watching a great movie: focus on the story, the art design, the sound
design, and the experience in general.

I still play a bit of FIFA, but I reserve it to my social time (even though I
find that FIFA create a lot of tensions, while Mario Kart is funnier to play,
and the level to be competent is lower).

The problem with most of IAP games are that they are in the same category than
FIFA or FM. There is little backstory. While paying upfront for a game (on
mobile, a dozen of great games exists, and you can play some of them during
short period of time like Limbo...) create a sense of connection with the
game, because you invest money in it, and you are ready to really invest time
in it. On the opposite, IAP are games where the goal is to make you play as
much as possible, to pay as much as possible.

~~~
StavrosK
There are different kinds of IAP, some are free demos and you unlock the full
game with an IAP, some let you buy extra content in the form of DLC, some
remove ads, and some just want to get thousands of dollars out of you. I call
the latter "bullshit" to differentiate from the former, which are OK to me.

~~~
soylentcola
Games that follow the old shareware model (free to try out, choose whether or
not to pay for full game/disable ads) are my preference for sure.

I don't mind paying $5 (or more) for a good mobile game, but with so much crap
out there, it's tough to justify unless I am lucky enough to run across a
trusted review or it's something from a developer that has earned my trust
through previous offerings.

Looking back, the games I buy/unlock tend to be the ones where I get to try
them out first. If I play the first 10 levels or 1/5th of the story and really
enjoy it, I'm eager to pay in-app to continue the game.

------
neogodless
I feel dumb so I don't know if it's a UI thing or just my weird brain, but I
loaded this page on my phone, on Firefox and and Chrome, and I incorrectly
assumed it was just broken. Where was the list of games?!

Finally I read "choose your platform" and realized it was saying that not for
adding games or any other reason, but to see one of the lists! D'oh!

~~~
StavrosK
Hmm, I might have to do something about that, yes. Currently it's too much
text on that page.

------
xojoc
Shameless plug: I also made some games built with TypeScript/Phaser:
[https://xojoc.pw/games2d/](https://xojoc.pw/games2d/)

The code is on GitHub:
[https://github.com/xojoc/games2d](https://github.com/xojoc/games2d)

It's a PWA[1] too, so it can be installed on some OSes. I wrote about the
experience here: [https://xojoc.pw/blog/experience-
pwa](https://xojoc.pw/blog/experience-pwa)

[1]: [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/Progressive_web...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/Progressive_web_apps)

~~~
VRay
Hey dude, your games look pretty fun, sorry you're getting downvoted here

I miss the simple, fun, free linux games of the 90s/00s. And other apps, for
that matter. Somehow nowadays everyone thinks that cobbling together an RSS
reader or a Solitaire game should entitle them to a permanent passive income
or make them into a millionaire CEO

------
Marsymars
I like this a lot.

For a few years now I've wanted something like "No-Bullshit Podcasts" which
does the same thing - lists podcasts that are either ad-free or that can be
made ad-free via purchase, and that don't require a proprietary player.

~~~
HenryBemis
All the BBC podcasts are ad-free, but I get them from within the UK. I am not
sure if they have ads if served in other countries.

~~~
JNRowe
Hmm, at what point do all the trailers for other shows tip in to the advert
category?

I wouldn't want to try counting how many times I heard a trailer about 13
Minutes to the Moon last year, which I'm picking on specifically because I
actually enjoyed it to make the point that the bucket choice can be _very_
subjective.

~~~
HenryBemis
The Brexitcast doesn't have ads. The Infinite Monkey Cage has a 10-15seconds
clip in the end where they promote other science-y podcasts (which I always
fast-forward anyway).

I also listen to the weekly "SecurityNow", in which out of the 2h there should
be at least 10-15mins where Leo reads out his ads. Leo also tries to push
SpinRite, but since SR has saved many disks in my lifetime, I gladly listen to
that bit (finally we'll have a faster performing version soon-ish).

~~~
JNRowe
I don't know. Katya pimps nail polish, and Adam pushes pastries disguised as
tales of street meetings with prominent leaders. Either that or I'm getting
the wrong message from brexitcast.

In all seriousness though. You've described excellent examples of what I was
trying to get at: it isn't always obvious where to draw the line; useful
promotions, acceptable [to the listener] ads, and the point where it becomes
just _too much_.

~~~
HenryBemis
Even on SecurityNow, majority of ads are irrelevant to me. But thanks to SN
add I found out about CrashPlan, Lastpass, and some other useful services. I
cannot remember the razor as that Leo used to have every-week-for-months (the
one that was acquired by Gillette some months ago)(Harry's or something) it
was boring and irrelevant for a cybersecurity audience, I guess they were
aiming for the "males with money" attributes of the audience.

------
jlv2
Really nice idea! I added a few.

But one that I added didn't make it to the list and I don't know why:
Spaceteam
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sleepingbe...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sleepingbeastgames.spaceteam)

It has no ads. The IAP it has seems to fit your definition of acceptable: it's
only cosmetic and goes to support the developer.

So my suggestion would be this: include another list of rejected games, which
some reason why they didn't meet the criteria for the No-BS list.

~~~
StavrosK
Oooh I love Spaceteam, thanks for the submission. Basically, the way it works
is that games are automatically added once an hour if they have no ads or iap
and are semi-popular, otherwise if you leave a comment telling me why the IAP
they have is fine, they go into a review queue.

I then eventually review the queue and whitelist the games accordingly.
Spaceteam should be up in a few minutes, thanks again!

------
tareqak
I really, really like this idea 'StavrosK, so thanks for making this site.

I contributed the iOS version of Seedship: I played it a few weeks ago, and it
had no IAP or in-game currency to speak of [0]. I only have an iPhone, so I
cannot test the Android version [1]. I strongly suspect that the answer is no
given that the two web versions do not have those things [2][3].

This project did give me follow on idea though that others here mentioned
and/or alluded to in this this thread: content blockers for the App Store/Play
Store. Apple and Google only check for a number of things when reviewing app
submissions: malware checks, conformance with local laws, major performance
issues, certain security issues etc. What if a user could download content
blockers to block apps that they don’t want to see? Apple and Google get to
free themselves of having to break ties between content curation and being a
censor. Users who want use apps that are vetted by a third-party of their
choosing to achieve some purpose would be able to do so e.g. apps for
children. I’m not sure exactly what Apple or Google would have to accomplish
this, but I think they could some of their organization app policy logic
combined with a few other things e.g. forbidding side-loading, or adding
additional content-blocker specific app signatures that an app could
optionally have. There is a good chance that this would hurt advertising, so
there would be the appropriate and proportional pushback. However, I consider
that to be an expression of what the market wants.

[0]
[https://apps.apple.com/us/app/seedship/id1340497640](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/seedship/id1340497640)

[1]
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.johnayliff...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.johnayliff.seedship&hl=en_US)

[2] [https://johnayliff.itch.io/seedship](https://johnayliff.itch.io/seedship)

[3]
[https://philome.la/johnayliff/seedship/play/index.html](https://philome.la/johnayliff/seedship/play/index.html)

------
casid
My contribution is a tower defense I've been working on over the last 7 years
and that I'm still regularily playing myself:
[https://mazebert.com/](https://mazebert.com/) The graphics are pretty bad
(I'm drawing them myself, heh), but there's a lot of depth and content to it.

There are three optional, one-time in app purchases, where you can tip me with
a cookie, beer or whisky and get a cosmetic card in return.

------
mjevans
Are there more options for a Solitaire game that fit on this list?

My retired father could use something familiar (more like the Windows 95
solitaire, minesweeper, and 'mahjong solitaire' tile matching) games that
probably still occupy some floorspace in that grey-matter.

I'd also like some games that might help both younger kids and the elderly by
exercising memory matching, pattern deduction, and basic math skills. It
wasn't clear how to pick such titles out of the list.

------
nwsm
Columns can only be sorted descending.

[https://nobsgames.stavros.io/ios/?s=price](https://nobsgames.stavros.io/ios/?s=price)

~~~
StavrosK
They're actually only sorted in one way, descending or ascending, depending on
the column. I aim to fix that soon.

------
d4n3
Great idea... I don't mind paying for good games, but what i do mind is games
that try to squeeze as much money out of you for just playing it, which fits
your definition of bullshit games.

So unlockable DLC and removable ads are fine, but endless pay-to-win
consumables aren't.

Sorting by number of reviews would be great - it's a better indicator of
popularity than the review score

------
JohnFen
Those are games I might actually try! When I see "in app purchases" in an app
description, I don't install the app.

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makecheck
Measuring popularity is potentially an issue here, since:

\- Every game’s popularity measure is competing against all other games in
stores, which definitely includes all the “bullshit” games (and there are
probably way more of those).

\- One form of “bullshit” is gaming the review system itself, e.g. finding
ways to generate thousands of “reviews”.

\- It is very difficult to get users to submit reviews.

------
GuB-42
I see many games on the list are free with "One-time purchase".

I find these to be pretty annoying, at least on the Android Play Store. The
concept is good: free demo, you pay for the full game. The problem is that it
hides the actual price of the game.

Maybe an "actual price" field could be added to the site.

------
twoquestions
Joining the chorus of this being a wonderful idea. Maybe link to Metacritic or
other respected reviewers?

Thank you very much for this!

~~~
StavrosK
Thank you! Is there a way to find the Metacritic review automatically from the
app ID?

~~~
twoquestions
Doesn't look like it at first glance, if I absolutely had to I'd screen-scrape
the advanced search page for the link, which is a less than great way to do
it. I donno.

------
speeder
Are my games eligible? I own a game company named Kidoteca, our target market
is small kids so we never put ads or IAP.

The closest thing to ads is a section to see our other apps, but it is hidden
(requires reading, to figure out how to get to it, while we expect most of our
users are kids that can't read).

~~~
StavrosK
Sure, if they have no ads or IAP, check out the guidelines and add them.

------
bathtub365
The table that has the game list in it doesn't work very well on my iPhone. I
have to scroll horizontally.

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ducaale
Would a game with ads that can be turned off for free count? Its called
Snowpounce and here is a video about its development
[https://youtu.be/7ZYkCOmF0yc](https://youtu.be/7ZYkCOmF0yc)

Disclaimer: the game is not mine

~~~
StavrosK
Yes, if you can turn them off completely forever, certainly.

------
bencollier49
You should set up your own game store with only the listed games on it. Would
be great.

------
jedberg
I’ve found in most cases putting the phone into airplane mode before loading
the game makes them playable.

Sometimes you miss out on hints and whatnot but overall it lets me play the
game with my kids without worrying about inappropriate ads.

------
eps
Good coverage, well done! At least for the iOS games. Few more to add:

Tiny Bang

PDTA (please don't touch anything) <\- absolutely awesome btw!

Carcassone

Tokaido

Miracle Merchant

Alchemy 2

Supertype

Ordinary puzzles

Auralux, Auralux 2

~~~
StavrosK
Thank you! Could you add them via the form? That way I can keep the feedback
in one place.

~~~
eps
Ah, found the form... but it was on the landing page that serves no other
purpose but to forward people to the iOS or Android sections. So there's no
real reason to ever go back to it. Perhaps link the form from the actual
listing pages?

~~~
StavrosK
Yes, I need to split it off to another page and add an "Add a game" button.

------
chrisBob
Do you have a way to filter duplicates? I just took a look at the iOS list and
there are a few games that are on all 3 of the first 3 pages.

I love the idea, and will use this to help find games for our family iPad.

~~~
StavrosK
Hmm, there should be no duplicates, something is iffy. Do you know which
games?

~~~
devaler
I see The Room series of games multiple times.

~~~
StavrosK
Oops, that seems to be a pagination problem (they're only in the database
once, as you can see here:
[https://nobsgames.stavros.io/ios/?name=room](https://nobsgames.stavros.io/ios/?name=room)).
I will investigate, thank you.

EDIT: iOS games have a rating that's quantized 0.5 apart, so all the 5-star
games were sorting unstably. Sorting by "-rating, -reviews" seems to have
fixed that (and is more useful), thanks.

~~~
jldugger
Are you sure about that? You report Bacon the Game as a 5, but
[https://apps.apple.com/us/app/bacon-the-
game/id1413085106](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/bacon-the-game/id1413085106)
lists it as 4.8 out of 5.

~~~
StavrosK
Unfortunately, yes:

[https://itunes.apple.com/lookup?id=1413085106](https://itunes.apple.com/lookup?id=1413085106)

However, since that API is very barebones and I'm scraping the page anyway,
I'll scrape the rating as well, thank you for the heads up.

------
Fr33maan
No IAP and no ads? How does a game studio should earn money then? Knowing the
fact that business model of games are moving to free to play and than players
are now reluctant more than ever to pay a decent price for a game but prefer
spend 5x more little by little? Do you intend to reverse the trend? Real
question, no trolling.

How a game studio can make money with a F2P game? Or how can we make money
from a free 2 play NoBullshit™ game.

Disclaimer: I'm a game developer, I make a MMO F2P mobile game with IAP and
ads.

EDIT: I'm not trying to discuss why a F2P with IAP and ads is not always a
Bullshit game, you guess that I'm trying to do things well.

~~~
Ardon
Just charge for the game. Most of the games listed here are $2-$5 dollars.

I imagine the lowest-bullshit way to sustain an MMO would be a normal
subscription. Though I'm not sure this is the list for you, regardless.

~~~
Fr33maan
Well if mandatory subscription is not bullshit then why not. But i do prefer
to offer the game for free so everybody can enjoy it. Mandatory sub is a huge
toll in term of marketing. If you are not Blizzard then it's really harder to
market fit with less players. Another argument against sub (for me) is that
the game will be much more fun with more players.

~~~
twoquestions
Being able to pay to remove adds is OK according to the site, he refers to it
as a demo or trial.

So long as you can pay to get rid of ads and the IAP aren't pay-to-win
(Warframe does this pretty well) I'd argue it's not Bullshit.

~~~
imtringued
I agree Warframe is a "No-Bullshit" game but you still need real money to buy
slots for weapons and Warframes. This is a game where you are supposed to
acquire as many of those as possible to complete your collection kinda like
Pokemon. It's more of a pay-as-you-go model.

------
apinstein
This is great! As a parent I try to screen for good apps but I definitely
prefer a database.

I’d love to share this with my kids but would prefer a profanity-free site to
share...

------
tdalaa
Huge huge upvote from me. So dead tired of IAP for my 7 year old daughter..
The amount of money wasted on crap in Toca world or similar.. Thank you!

~~~
tdalaa
Please add an "added date" and ability to sort by that date to only see new
entries. I've just looked through 10 pages of games. When I come back next
time, I want to view only the ones added recently, so I don't have to look at
all the same ones again. :-)

~~~
StavrosK
It's not in the UI yet (because I can't spare a column), but you can get it if
you change the URL:

[https://nobsgames.stavros.io/android/?s=added](https://nobsgames.stavros.io/android/?s=added)

------
CGamesPlay
I like the list! I wish it was more usable on my actual mobile, though.
There’s lots of inefficient use of space and strange word wrapping.

Good start in any case!

------
sandos
Wow, I was thinking about why its still impossible to find honest games on
android! This is just what I need!

------
Can_Not
I think you should broaden your categorization logic. One app idea I've never
had time to start was to make (basically your project) but with also the
intent to help filter by specific attributes like:

\- offline play

\- ads

\- ads removable by IAP

\- no gambling via IAP

\- multiplayer

\- 2 player online (1v1)

\- 2 player online (co op)

\- 2 player same device

\- asynchronous multiplayer (like modern play by email, e.g. words with
friends)

\- not a farmville clone (almost all games trying to catch simcity SEO on
android are actually farmville clone shitware).

\- no paywalls

\- no pay to win

\- native of html5

\- turn based

\- real time

\- board game

\- 2d

\- 3d

The problem is it's really hard to find good games in the android store
because every search result is littered with child gambling addiction
shitware, or the specific detail isn't isn't indexed at all anywhere.

------
aloukissas
I love seeing this become a project after seeing the tweet that (maybe?)
started it. Good job SK!

~~~
StavrosK
Thanks! If I remember correctly, that tweet was probably nearer the end,
though my threshold for building something after complaining about it is
rather low these days

~~~
ryanisnan
Stavros you read my mind with this app. <3

~~~
StavrosK
<3

------
bpg_92
Awesome website! Great work, it would be nice to have a sort parameter to sort
by score or price.

~~~
StavrosK
Thanks! Yes, I really need to add sorting... I'll do that next, thank you.

------
Zenst
The ability to sort by rating alone is a gesture Google lacks, that alone
makes this a joy.

------
sci_prog
I made something similar a few years ago although for Android only.

playworthy.io

------
irjustin
Man, I miss the days of simple tabled listing, relevant information and
scroll.

thanks for this!

------
empath75
A bit of ui advice — you can tell what phone I’m browsing on from user agent
screen. You should default to showing me the right games right on the landing
page.

~~~
StavrosK
Thanks for the feedback, I think it would be better if I let the user choose
since I personally want to look at both lists sometimes (or I'm on the PC).
Besides, it's very easy to just bookmark the platform you want and go there,
but I will consider it.

------
k__
Cool!

Sorting by release time would be nice to see new stuff.

------
anonymousab
Reminds me of Honest Android Games.

------
indigodaddy
Nice job. This is awesome.

------
otikik
Nice idea, thanks!

------
cableshaft
Clever idea. I'm curious why you decided to allow games with DLC though.
That's technically an In-App Purchase. I get it's not a Consumable IAP, but
it's still IAP.

Also you can probably add just about any modern (i.e. non-Hasbro) board game
conversion to this list. Almost all of them charge a fee up front and won't
have anything more than some DLC for their expansions. Like Ticket to Ride,
Carcassonne, Through the Ages, etc.

I'm actually working on a mobile game in my spare time right now, and while I
normally like to charge money for them I thought I'd try the IAP route this
time, but I wasn't planning on making it anywhere near as obnoxious as most
IAP games.

Ads you can pay a few bucks to remove, then a couple of consumables that are
optional and you can earn during a game anyway if you're lucky, but can buy
more if you want (it's a push your luck game, so luck is part of the design),
that's about it.

I'm not looking to make all of the money in the world like these big companies
are, just hopefully enough to make some side income and maybe eventually
switch to making games full time.

I tried playing a Jeopardy game recently, and it just bombards you with
screens of crap constantly. Here's a screen where you can pay to add an item
for a round! Use your items to help you answer a question slightly easier! Oh
you won! Let's update your win streak! (or Oh no! you lost, you're about to go
to 0 on your win streak, but if you pay, you can keep it up, and you'll get a
reward if you keep it going enough!), then here's some special event that
earns you some random nonsense for getting a question right! here's a level up
screen! here's a screen that pesters you about something else (I don't know, I
lost track after awhile). Just on and on, and in your face. I can't believe
people will spend money for these stupid win streaks and whatnot.

So yeah, I'm hoping mine doesn't come across as obnoxious (obviously it
wouldn't qualify for the No-Bullshit list, though). And if it doesn't do well,
at least it helped me get back in the swing of making mobile games again (it's
been like 6 years).

Good luck with your website, it looks nice! If you can add a few extra filters
to it, you might have better discoverability than the Apple App Store, which
has been too "Winner-Take-All because we refuse to highlight more than a
handful of games or give proper filtering options" for forever.

~~~
StavrosK
> Clever idea. I'm curious why you decided to allow games with DLC though.
> That's technically an In-App Purchase. I get it's not a Consumable IAP, but
> it's still IAP.

That's why I called it "No-Bullshit Games" instead of "No-IAP games" :P

> Ads you can pay a few bucks to remove

That's fine by me.

> then a couple of consumables that are optional and you can earn during a
> game anyway if you're lucky, but can buy more if you want (it's a push your
> luck game, so luck is part of the design)

That's where I kind of start to consider the game "bullshit", I want to play
and enjoy myself, not have constant FOMO of what could be if only I'd spent
some more money. That said, it doesn't sound nearly as annoying as some of the
crap I've installed.

> yeah, I'm hoping mine doesn't come across as obnoxious (obviously it
> wouldn't qualify for the No-Bullshit list, though).

Oh, I didn't read this far before starting the reply :P I hope so too, and
yeah, it probably wouldn't qualify.

Good luck with the game, I hope it goes well!

~~~
cableshaft
> That's where I kind of start to consider the game "bullshit", I want to play
> and enjoy myself, not have constant FOMO of what could be if only I'd spent
> some more money.

It probably won't be too much of a FOMO thing really. The game is mainly just
a "see how far you get" game, kind of like a Flappy Bird or Temple Run type
game, but choice based, not dexterity based.

If you choose poorly you can lose pretty quickly, but then you can just start
the game over again if you want. But if you're like "wow, this is the furthest
I've been, let's go for it this time!" or whatever, and you burned through the
items that you earned during the course of the game, well you could just see
if you get lucky and get farther, or you can spend money to get a bundle of
items help ensure you survive a bit longer.

But the game is designed that if you keep making the right choices you can
continue indefinitely (in practice, though, you will almost certainly pick
wrong enough times at some point... I've simulated it, and with 100,000+
simulations, it doesn't get further than a certain point, and it's super rare
to get that high).

Personally it's not something I ever spend money on in these things, but I'm
pretty anti-IAP for my own personal use and have rarely spent money on IAP in
general, but I enjoy playing the game just to see how far I can get just with
the items I earn during the game, so I'm hoping even some players that are
anti-IAP will enjoy the game anyway.

Because ultimately I'm trying to make a fun game, just add some way to make
some money while not charging up front for it.

~~~
nottorp
> If you choose poorly you can lose pretty quickly, but then you can just
> start the game over again if you want. But if you're like "wow, this is the
> furthest I've been, let's go for it this time!" or whatever, and you burned
> through the items that you earned during the course of the game, well you
> could just see if you get lucky and get farther, or you can spend money to
> get a bundle of items help ensure you survive a bit longer.

... actually, my assumption will be that you designed the game to require
purchasing those items, and I won't even install it :)

It's not only that I have to believe you when you say they're not required,
but even if i do, I have to believe you won't sneakily - or not so sneakily -
change things in the next update.

It was bad enough when EA bought Popcap and my paid for Plants vs Zombies
turned into some bullshit with IAPs.

~~~
cableshaft
Yeah, that sucks. Plants vs Zombies should have never gone IAP.

It's fine that you don't trust that it won't change. That's probably a good
thing overall to have that skepticism.

This is my first real experiment with designing a free game that isn't just a
free flash game with zero monetization that I just put out there and let
millions of people play without getting any income for it (what I used to do
15+ years ago...basically just gave a lot of free money to flash game websites
that did have ads).

I've worked on a F2P game before at a video game company and it did all those
terrible tricks and I didn't feel to happy working on it, was always hoping
we'd get a new client for more interesting and fun games, but it never ended
up happening before they had to do major layoffs.

I'm not claiming I won't ever do something that you personally won't like,
this is mainly just what I'm thinking now. But I'm hoping that being less
obnoxious will earn me some more good will than trying to squeeze every last
dime out of players like big companies do. I'm just one guy making games
outside of my day job, here.

