

Ask HN: Are there many professional devs who don't have any degree? - daven11

There&#x27;s a thread here https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9163921 about differences between cs grads and non cs grads as devs. Which got me to thinking are there many devs who don&#x27;t have any degree? I&#x27;d be curious to hear from you and how you go about getting jobs without a degree, and has not having a degree limited your career prospects?
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MrTonyD
I'm 56, and when I started I was an electronic tech assistant. Over time I
started coding and specialized in developing device drivers and then OS
development. So I have a long resume with lots of experience. After Steve Jobs
hired me he said that there were two people at NeXT without a degree, and that
he (Steve) was one of them. So I was the other. Having said all that, it
definitely would have been easier with a degree.

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daven11
lol, I think you may be an exception :-), kudos to you by the way

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mjones
I'm 64 and started as a mini computer tester in the mid 70s. Within two years
I was forming my own programming team at one of the early microcomputer
companies. I've been programming ever since.

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daven11
That's great - did not having a degree ever cause you problems?

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pedalpete
I don't have a degree, and have been a software developer for over 8 years.
All self-taught on the internet.

I work for a technology research agency, with some absolutely amazing
engineers. Former googlers, top of the field stuff. Though sometimes they are
speaking far above my current knowledge, the fact that I don't have a degree
is never an issue. It's just that I haven't learned x or y YET. Most of the
stuff I'm learning from them, I don't think most CS students would have learnt
either. I'm incredibly lucky.

The great thing about it all, is that I also don't have the rules instilled in
me, which they have. Which (I think) is why I'm sometimes able to come up with
more elegant solutions to problems than they are. I always say, "I'm not
smarter than them, but I may be more creative".

Though the research agency asked if I had a degree, it was never an issue for
them. The interesting thing is that the companies that I had spoken to who
were adamant that their engineers had degrees where doing the least
interesting and challenging stuff. The really interesting stuff, people would
ask why I don't have a degree, but once they saw the history of work, and
example of my code, that was it. It never came up again.

So, I think it might depend on what type of developer you are. If you're going
to work for digital agencies, it might matter. If you're going to work for
people without a technical background (who don't understand that a degree
maybe doesn't mean that much), you might need one. If you're able to teach
yourself enough to be more than dangerous, make a few really interesting and
challenging projects come off, and most importantly, surround yourself with
people you can continue to learn from, I think you'll be ok.

It seemed to me, when I was interviewing, that the importance of a degree was
in inverse correlation to your expectations.

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jayhuang
Disclaimer: After some downtime, I got a diploma in CS due to heavy pressure
from my family (who all hold a doctorate or two...)

Despite having a diploma now, all of the jobs/positions I had before were
obtained on the basis that I do not have a degree.

In terms of getting jobs without a degree, it honestly hasn't been very
difficult, though I don't really have the experience of someone with a degree
to compare with.

I got my first computer quite late in my life, but I was very enthusiastic
(obsessed really) about learning programming/web development/web security.
I've been fortunate enough to run into people who for the most part,
appreciate and can vouch for my knowledge. Heck, even people who after
interviewing me, took a chance and convinced skeptics to give me a chance.

I won't say I was never rejected by a company simply because I do not possess
a degree, but it has never really bothered me. I've worked with many great
companies and teams on many great projects and if those other doors didn't
close for me, I probably wouldn't have had the opportunities I had.

Something I've noticed though: To many, a degree is a sign of being able to
commit and follow through with something. The lack of a degree, especially for
someone as young as myself, is disconcerting/a red flag to many. And that's
perfectly fine, I get the concerns. Not everyone will take the time or effort
to understand why you never got a degree (financial difficulties or
otherwise), they may just write you off.

That being said, I do recommend anyone who is blessed with the opportunity, to
go and finish a degree. I've seen firsthand the connections some prestigious
programs provide that I was never able to get, and most importantly, many
people simply do not have the discipline to delve deep into the various areas
necessary to allow you to be successful in this field. There's no doubt it's
tiring and it's definitely no easier than following a set curriculum.

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christocracy
I started out as an electronics tech dropout (long story) in the 90s,
apprenticing with a small engineering company via a gov't-funded job-creation
program (Canada, EI-based). I was lucky to work closely with a couple of young
engineers; programming Z80s, wire-wrapping prototypes. When the www came
online, my engineer colleagues had me working on our first company web-page,
so that got me introduced to html/javascript/css.

Enrolled in CS program at uni in 2000, got a programming job with a company
building an "online shopping mall" (in the model of
[Shopify]([http://shopify.com](http://shopify.com)). The lead-programmer there
was 19, I was 26. I started learning MySQL on day 1. Introduced OO-perl to
young kid. I implored my boss-at-the-time "we need to hire some young CS
grads, and he did. One guy in particular was much more talented all-around, I
found, so I quickly encouraged him to take the reins and lead us.

I've been self-incorporated and working from home for ~5 years now. I
specialize in Ruby, Rails, complex Javascript SPAs and Cordova (including
custom plugins on the native Android & iOS side).

I made a name for myself in the Sencha/ExtJS universe (which is fading now),
but I got a lot of work directed at me by taking part in that community.

I've always been pretty active in OSS projects and I'm always managing some of
my own for niche applications, which seem to gather a small audience. That's
been pretty important over the years, getting someone hooked on your OSS code.

If you're doing Cordova apps and you need battery-efficient background
location-tracking on iOS/Android, Google: "background geolocation", I might be
the 1st couple results :)

I don't really do much hunting for jobs these days, they come to me instead
(so far). When my plate is full, I raise my rate higher as a filter.

I should add, while I don't have a CS degree, I did have 1 year college
electronics in addition to 3 years of vocational high-school electronics which
gave me the fighting chance.

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jvickers
I went to an interview once, for a company that makes online games (gambling).
We spoke about my education and lack of a degree. They seemed to be saying how
it important it is for them that the team is good at maths. I said I had a
decent mathematical grounding, and understanding, and while I'd not be able to
instantly answer maths questions I'd be able to think about how to answer it,
and research the problem.

I was posed a question... how would you simulate the appearance of a fruit
machine wheel (3D rendering). I explained that I did not have the answer with
all the details already, but probably would not need to know them all either
and could use what's already been done to a large extent. This was put to me
as the kind of thing that an employee there would be expected to know. I asked
my two interviewers what the answer was, how they would solve such a problem.
There was a lot of umming and arring for a few (uncomfortable for them)
minutes. I found it very funny.

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cstrahan
I've been in the industry for about 8 years now, and not having a degree
hasn't made any measurable difference to my career prospects (in the long
run).

Actually, it's pretty routine for a boss or coworker to ask me a year or two
into a new job "hey, what university did you say you went to?"

My response: I didn't go to school.

Starting out though, it was a little tricky: I was making $27,000 as the sole
developer at little photo-lab in downtown Dallas, TX. However, once you get a
year or two of experience down on paper, and assuming you kicked ass those
first years, not having a college education isn't a problem.

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camhenlin
I don't have a degree, but I served in the Marines as a Systems Analyst, where
I got a couple of Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medals for several pieces
of software that I wrote. I think for that reason, most job prospects seem to
ignore the fact that I don't have a degree

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marketingadvice
Most devs that I've noticed as really passionate and good at what they do,
don't have a degree. That's just my experience at half a dozen startups, but a
majority of the devs I've met thus far don't have a degree.

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jhildings
My experience is that many who doesn't have a degree(including myself) gets an
offer during their studies from their part time job for example, and then
continue working there for some time and not going back to university

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daven11
Thanks folks, it's really interesting to hear the road less travelled. Any
others?

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dsacco
I don't have a degree. I make an above market salary in NY for a software
engineer. I have worked as a developer, and now I specialize in software
security. I'm very happy with my career, and I haven't considered going to
school at all. I'm especially happy not having any debt (I don't brag about
this though, because I think it's off putting and I still think most people
should get a degree). I recognize that I'm an exception however, and I
wouldn't recommend someone follow my path unless they're very good at
exercising control over their time without supervision.

A few notes:

1\. I'm good at what I do, and I constantly try to improve my skillset. I
think that comes across to people, so no one has ever expressed any concern
with my education whatsoever. In fact, anyone who I have spoken to about it
has explicitly stated they don't care (this goes for people at large
recognizable BigCos to small Series As).

2\. I network very well. I learned early on that having a mentor and knowing
how to be charismatic and connect with influential people is better than
spending time fixing up your rèsumè and then submitting it to a job ad. I've
also found these people don't care about the credentials.

3\. I still recommend most people go to school. People have this tendency to
see exceptions to the rule such as myself and think, "Hey, look, you don't
need school!"

No, you don't, but how else with you learn? You need a plan. You need a
passion. You need discipline. Those words are overused a lot, but to cultivate
a skill like programming outside the classroom really does require passion. I
sat down for hours a day when I was in high school, reverse engineering things
I came across, reimplementing things, tinkering, reading from the same
algorithms textbooks people use in top schools.

To be honest, the only real difference is that I read my textbooks from home
and didn't pay as much for them. That's the sort of person you need to be.
Again, not bragging, just a real point - evaluate if you are this sort of
person with this sort of dedication before you drop the regimented structure
of school.

4\. I'm very open about my background and don't hide it. It's never been a
problem and I specifically don't hide it because I'm confident in my skillset.
For what it's worth, I still receive recruiting inquiries on LinkedIn several
times a week.

5\. You do not need to go to school to learn almost every discipline of what
is typically called "software engineering." You can learn almost all of
computer science online. You have in your pocket the most self empowering tool
since the invention of the printing press. You can, at a whim, learn every
single algorithm. You can learn to implement every algorithm, and their
corresponding time complexities, within six months (three months if you are
really studious).

Think about what you can do with three hours of free time a day and the entire
internet at your fingertips. I walked through learning several programming
languages, algorithms and data structures, algorithm design, optimization,
computer architecture, operating sytems, networking, etc. etc. by spending a
few hours every single day. The difficulty is not the availability of the
information, the difficulty forcing yourself to just sit down and do it.

My bottom line is that it's still better to go to school. For example, I still
recommend my young relatives go to university, because I think it's very rare
for people to really succeed in teaching themselves without structure imposed
on them. But on the other hand I do feel very happy about my choices because I
know my skills are strong, my knowledge isn't lacking and I saved quite a bit
of money. I don't regret it at all. It's never held me back, and it doesn't
have to hold anyone back, but you need the discipline and passion to make it
work.

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daven11
Thanks for sharing, I'm pleased to hear you recommend going to school, it
seems there's an exceptional few who can make it without a degree. I'd thought
there'd be more, maybe they have better things to do on their weekend :-)

