
Plot thickens in Airbnb vacation rental horror story - felipemnoa
http://travel.usatoday.com/destinations/dispatches/post/2011/07/plot-thickens-airbnb-renter-horror-story/179250/1
======
nikcub
> Airbnb, while pointing out that the incident was the first of its kind out
> of some 2 million stays booked since the company's founding in 2008

this isn't true. there was a guy in the Techcrunch comments who said that the
same thing happen to him. he also makes reference to two other incidents in
another comment. the comment is here:

[http://techcrunch.com/2011/07/30/how-the-hell-is-this-my-
fau...](http://techcrunch.com/2011/07/30/how-the-hell-is-this-my-fault/)

reproducing the top part of the comment:

 _Something very similar happened to me about 2 months ago._

 _In addition to valuables stolen, the thieves/addicts did thousands of
dollars of bizarre damage to my rented home and left it littered with meth
pipes. They were identity thieves, too and all my personal information was
strewn about. Further investigation of my own led me to evidence that the
people were not just thieves but were also dangerous. I too, feared for my own
safety and would not stay at my house for some time._

 _I had a similar problem with haphazard communication from people at AirBnB.
I gave them multiple opportunities to make me a happy customer to which they
did but then retracted their offer after their was miscommunication among the
team. Sometimes days went by without hearing from anyone, while I was fear-
stricken, totally disoriented, and angry. It was almost the most absurd
customer service crisis one could ever imagine. But I am one squeaky wheel,
and we eventually found an agreeable solution that I was generally pleased
with._

 _I have since both rented my place out and stayed in others' homes from
airbnb_

~~~
mikeleeorg
Interesting. Has anyone been able to verify this account from Troy Dayton? I
found his Twitter & LinkedIn accounts (easy to get from a web search) and, at
the very least, I can confirm that someone exists by that name in San
Francisco.

~~~
nikcub
This topic isn't going away, and it is the weekend, which means all the tech
blogs are looking for something to write about - so I wouldn't be surprised if
at least one blogger isn't following this up.

------
andrewljohnson
This is a little out of hand now, and it really isn't because of anything
fundamentally wrong with AirBnB. The vast majority of the issue is that AirBnB
is not reacting well to the crisis, and that the PR is being handled about as
clumsily as possible.

Y-Combinator needs a PR firm. That much is clear from the AirBnB fall out over
the last few days, and I'm not talking about a PR firm to cheer lead for YC,
or a PR firm to respond to this or any particular incident.

Instead, they need a PR firm that will evaluate risks of the evolving start-
ups, in particular focusing on ones with lots of funding and press exposure.
The firm's role would be to anticipate and plan for potential fall out. In
times of trouble, the firm would be poised to jump in and coach the team on
the appropriate way to respond to crisis in the public eye. A good PR firm
would know that saying the word "funding" to the victim was simply not a good
idea, and would have advised the founders as such before any meetings with the
victim.

I think public relations is like a dirty word in the valley, but PR need not
be an unethical or otherwise bad practice, and in this case, the right support
would have made a world of difference. The firm really could just be an
observer, except in times of crisis. It may be beneficial for the firm to
interact with the start-ups, but I think this would at least lead to
resistance, given the culture of technical-centric organizations. Simply
having an impartial observer with a nose for media problems would avert some
crises.

~~~
Lewisham
I wouldn't be surprised if EJ doesn't have a PR person nudging her along. Her
statements about being "violated" and "unsafe" means she sounds like she wants
AirBnB to do the impossible and repair _her_ , not her belongings. She sounds
like she's inconsolable and nothing can be done to make it right, but boy,
does blabbing about how upset she is in every possible media outlet make it
feel a little better!

I think she's looking for more than just replacement, but a sizable
settlement. I won't be surprised if we see legal papers in the next week.

~~~
gojomo
I disagree. Of course this is all speculation but I see in EJ someone who's
genuinely hurt, and genuinely private, and is not focused on financial
remedies.

Her main complaint seems to be lack of genuine concern, not lack of financial
help. Nothing about her attitude, her living situation, or blog (documenting
extensive past globetrotting adventures) suggests she's hurting for money.

She's just hurting from having her home, sense of security, and sentimental
possessions ransacked.

~~~
Lewisham
My feeling is that if she is generally vulnerable, and genuinely private, it
doesn't make a lot of sense to rent out your apartment with your belongings
inside it and then leave for days. I could never rent out to AirBnB, because
I'm also fairly private and I don't like thinking of people being in a
position to touch my things.

I'm not saying that she invited what happened, but that the risks were very
clear, and only she could decide how to weight those risks. If she's the
private person she's painting herself as being, I really don't understand why
she used AirBnB in the first place.

I don't think she's a liar, and what happened to her was terrible, but I can't
help but feel that this has gone over some threshold of "I want to get this
sorted out between two amicable parties who are seeking a resolution" to using
the positive press for her to see how much can be extracted from AirBnB.

~~~
josephcooney
The personal effects (which she seemed the most upset about losing) were
locked away in a closet, which the thieves/renters smashed a hole in to get
to.

~~~
Lewisham
I don't think that's especially relevant. She put her belongings in a position
where someone had days to get access to them, without any external evidence at
all. Neighbors would notice a broken window/door on the outside. A smashed in
lock on the inside? Who's to know?

------
pushingbits
I've been following this despite myself for a while. It does a pretty good job
at illustrating a problem with this instant update news you get so much these
days.

Too much thought and words spent on intermediate situations.

It's almost certain that not all details are known and of the ones that are
known, some will probably turn out to be incorrect. And now every time a
little tidbit of information turns up, everyone starts interpreting the new
situation (with the added tidbit of information). New conjecture, new advice,
new commentary. Then when the next bit of information comes in, it invalidates
half the predictions that have been made, and the whole process starts again.
Over and over. Round and round.

A couple of weeks from now when all the details are out and established, all
this intermediate commentary will just be noise. A tree falling in the forest
with no one around to hear. That's not to say that you shouldn't do it...
hell, if you feel like it... But you might ask yourself if there isn't
something else you'd rather be doing. Something useful. Something fun. I don't
know.

Anyway, I'll write myself a reminder to check up on how the whole thing turned
out in a month or so and ignore these threads from now on.

~~~
tokenadult
_It does a pretty good job at illustrating a problem with this instant update
news you get so much these days._

But when the technology to provide instant news updates was developed, it was
hailed as an opportunity not to be behind the curve on a breaking story. And
blogging was hailed (especially by Dave Winer, since way back in the year 2000
or earlier) as something that would give a voice to the forgotten common
people and shake up journalism. Good ideas have unintended consequences.

~~~
pushingbits
Oh, when I said it's a problem I meant it's a problem I have with it. Unless
it's an event that I can influence while it is happening (and I think now that
the major outcry happened, none of the talk here will make much of a
difference), I'd rather read a summary of what happened one week later than
reading piecemeal updates every day. I get the same information in the end
(all the intermediate stuff, I'd forget anyway), and it doesn't take as long,
so I have more time for doing other things.

~~~
SkyMarshal
Well said. Unless you can do something about it, the daily updates are more
likely noise than signal for you. It's better to resist indulging your
compulsion to rubberneck the latest startup drama and get back to either being
productive or at least going outside and climbing a tree or something.

------
tzs
I've not used Airbnb so perhaps I do not understand this correctly, but isn't
the whole point of the service to hook up people with rooms or housing
available for short term rental with strangers who want to rent short term
housing?

I understand from their site that you can read reviews from prior hosts who
rented to a given guest, but beyond that it is up to you to investigate the
guest and decide if you trust them, and to purchase insurance if you want to
be protected against misjudgment.

If so, I do not understand the fuss here. A bad guest ripped someone off.
Presumably that guest will get a scathing review and no one else will rent to
them. Why isn't that the end of the matter?

Surely no one is surprised that if you give strangers unsupervised full access
to your home, without doing a very thorough background check on them,
occasionally you are going to get a bad guest.

Now one might argue that Airbnb is in a better position than the average host
to gather data to make a good estimate of the prevalence and impact of bad
guests, and so it would be more efficient for them to buy insurance to protect
hosts rather than leave it to the hosts, but until that happens hosts need to
insure.

~~~
georgemcbay
A big part of the issue is that you are limited in how much you can learn
about a potential guest because Airbnb specifically attempts to hide their
full identity from you until after the first transaction as a means to avoid
people using them as a matching service and then doing the money transaction
outside of the system.

Also, as far as getting your own insurance goes.. good luck with that. Even if
you have renter's or home owner's insurance it probably specifically denies
any sort of coverage once you bring subletting into the mix.

~~~
usaar333
Is verification that tough though? I too have never used Airbnb, but doesn't a
person provide CC info? When they get keys from you, they can just present
photo ID and as long as A) photo matches person and B) name matches CC, you
are most likely clear*

*Unless they've spent the money to get a fake ID in a person's name that they've stolen a CC from - which seems highly unlikely.

~~~
microarchitect
The issue is not figuring out whether the person who you communicated with is
the same as the one turning up in your house, but rather whether the person is
someone you want to rent your place to. Apparently Airbnb hides their real
identity from you until you agree a deal, so there's no way for you to check
on Facebook etc. whether this person is someone you want to rent your place
to.

~~~
usaar333
I really don't see how knowing someone's real identity would help; I still
have 0 way to vet them.

What I care about is that there are repercussions (jail, lawsuit, etc) if they
do vandalize my dwelling - so the probability becomes near-zero that something
bad will happen.

------
munchhausen
This article, as far as I can tell, does not contain any new information about
the EJ saga. I am quite confident that, had the subject matter of the
submission not been AirBnB (and thus killing it might give rise to accusations
of censorship on part of YC), this submission would have been killed as a
dupe, and rightly so.

What is the point of submitting the same story over and over again, albeit
from different news sources? The fact that it has 98 points at the moment is
proof that the angry mob PG was talking about¹ is a reality. It's sad to see
this kind of behavior on HN.

¹ <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2822860>

~~~
mcantelon
I think the significance of it is that the story has hit USA Today and AirBnB
_still_ hasn't done anything to make the victim happy.

------
tokenadult
Somehow I'm reminded of a paragraph in pg's essay "How to Start a Startup":

"I was great at customer support though. Imagine talking to a customer support
person who not only knew everything about the product, but would apologize
abjectly if there was a bug, and then fix it immediately, while you were on
the phone with them. Customers loved us. And we loved them, because when
you're growing slow by word of mouth, your first batch of users are the ones
who were smart enough to find you by themselves. There is nothing more
valuable, in the early stages of a startup, than smart users. If you listen to
them, they'll tell you exactly how to make a winning product. And not only
will they give you this advice for free, they'll pay you."

<http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html>

There is other good advice for startups in this essay.

------
cincinnatus
This whole situation doesn't feel right. AirBnB definitely screwed up, how far
back that was is not clear, but EJ doesn't pass the smell test either. Caveat
that we likely are still a mile short of posessing full details.

~~~
espeed
I agree, something about this whole thing just seems off.

 _She said was "growing a very thick skin" because of accusations that she was
part of a plot by the hotel industry to discredit Airbnb_

Has Airbnb been looking into this possibility?

EJ blogged, _And I was - but no longer am - scared of Airbnb’s reaction, the
pressure and the veiled threat I have received from them since I initially
blogged this story_ ([http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/07/airbnb-
nightmare...](http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/07/airbnb-nightmare-no-
end-in-sight.html)).

But that doesn't fit with PG's description or the profile of the founders
(<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2822721>).

Nor does it fit with EJ's original account: _I would be remiss if I didn’t
pause here to emphasize that the customer service team at airbnb.com has been
wonderful, giving this crime their full attention_
([http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/06/violated-
travele...](http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/06/violated-travelers-
lost-faith-difficult.html)).

And there are these green "jcunningham" types that keep popping up on HN
([http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=jcunningham](http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=jcunningham))
trying to demonize Airbnb.

~~~
VladRussian
>accusations that she was part of a plot by the hotel industry to discredit
Airbnb

or like market analysts would say : tin hat market shows signs of improvement

> Has Airbnb been looking into this possibility?

ie. whether they seriously looked into the idea of blaming their own screwdup
on a "plot by <> industry" ? do you seriously think that bad about them?

~~~
dusklight
We are talking about billions of dollars here .. people have killed for much
less. We know that there already are companies who sell upvotes for
digg/reddit. selling tweets, etc. There is no evidence so far but no one can
deny that there is motive.

~~~
VladRussian
>We know that there already are companies who sell upvotes for digg/reddit.
selling tweets, etc.

and to think that i'm laboring here for free :)

------
theclay
All that talk of "doubling the size of its customer service staff" sounds
good, but it doesn't mention numbers. Did they go from 1 to 2? 100 to 200?

When they say they will be "creating a "Trust and Safety" department, they
again don't mention actual numbers.

What are the figures?

~~~
tokenadult
_All that talk of "doubling the size of its customer service staff" sounds
good, but it doesn't mention numbers. Did they go from 1 to 2? 100 to 200?_

This is one of my pet peeves about journalism--quantitative statements that
aren't anchored to any numbers. The most outrageous example most of the time
is talk of government budget "cuts" that are nearly always "growth in spending
at a slower than originally planned rate" rather than actual reductions in
spending.

------
jim_h
I don't believe this is Airbnb's fault, BUT since it has happened and gotten
big they better get their act together and fix it somehow.

Renting out short term is a good business IF someone is around the entire time
to watch over guests. There should really be a host present the entire time
for the guests. Otherwise there is an increased risk of bad things to happen.

Potential hosts needs to be aware of all the risks (even if small chance) and
be prepared to accept it if they're not vigilant.

It's much easier than running a business, but it could really bite you on the
ass if you don't run it as a real business.

------
bpd1069
My 0.02:

Buy the woman a new home, what ever she wants, furnish it as she wants and pay
her a largish sum of money to compensate for those things that cannot be
replaced.

Get insurance to cover the renters in future cases of theft or damage, and
there will be future events.

Get a company that conducts background checks on applicants that wish to rent
through their service. Anonymize the result and get the renter's approval
before the transaction can proceed.

~~~
rick888
The bad press is already out there. This isn't going to fix the problem of
things like this happening in the future and buying a house for everyone that
is vandalized is just not a scalable business model.

It would also show the world that Airbnb is taking the blame for this. It
isn't their fault. They are just as much a victim as this women. Victims
shouldn't be paying for other victims.

"Get insurance to cover the renters in future cases of theft or damage, and
there will be future events."

This will most likely increase the service fees substantially..maybe beyond
what people are willing to pay.

"Get a company that conducts background checks on applicants that wish to rent
through their service. Anonymize the result and get the renter's approval
before the transaction can proceed."

This is probably the best suggestion.

~~~
codeslush
Too many AirBnb stories, and too many comments - so it's possible my input is
duplicated. But I COMPLETELY agree with you.

A month or two ago, someone was visiting SoCal (San Diego) and needed some
help - I was about to offer him a place to stay at my house, for free. But I
had to think about things a little. It's unfortunate. I wanted to be kind, and
help someone out. The problem: I have a large family - comprise d of boys and
girls - teenagers at that. Would my charitable acts backfire on me? Not sure.
Maybe, maybe not. Ultimately, I didn't make the offer. It wasn't a SAFE
decision for me or my family. It would have been irresponsible, even though it
would have been a nice gesture.

I would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER offer up my primary residence to a complete
stranger - NEVER! I didn't do it when I would be "present" and I definitely
wouldn't do it when I was an absentee. No way. It's IRRESPONSIBLE. A secondary
residence? Maybe! Of course! Maybe they vomit on my couch, or piss on the
carpet. No problem - that's, sadly, somewhat expected of "renters" --- but to
provide a complete stranger to your primary residence, with all your private
material, documents, property and what not in place, is just NAIVE! I'm
sickened by what I have read, and I think AirBnb has no "social" or "business"
obligation in this matter. In fact, I'm wondering where my mental wiring has
gone wrong to have such a strong feeling. WHY on EARTH is everyone siding with
this person? Because of her gender? Because she's a good writer? No? No...
they've handled the whole thing, publicly, wrong. This is a great lesson for
them - but they are NOT AT FAULT - not in my opinion! But, that's just my
opinion, and clearly not that of the masses.

~~~
rick888
"WHY on EARTH is everyone siding with this person?"

I've been wondering the same thing. I read through her initial blog post. She
talks about renting out her place through Craigslist on multiple occasions
(without any problems). This is extremely risky and I wonder if her place was
vandalized through craigslist, would people be calling for them to pay for her
house?

When the "Craiglist killer" was in the news, I would be curious to see if the
responses here on HN were similar (that Craigslist is to blame for the
murders).

If I hired a developer from HN and they ended up stealing my source code/IP,
should I blame Paul Graham?

Emotions play a lot into it. Her entire post plays into our emotions and gets
people to feel sorry for her. Politicians and marketers use this same
technique, and I don't like it.

At the very end, she does admit that it is her fault. But not without a few
passive-aggressive jabs about the assumption that because she had paid a
service fee that somehow Airbnb had pre-screened the applicant. I'm not sure
why anyone would make this assumption.

I think because the criminals are not here, and people need someone to blame,
airbnb is the next best thing (having the deepest pockets in the situation
helps too).

Everyone just needs to take a step back, look at the situation, and take out
emotions for a second...they often cloud judgement.

------
da5e
This headline in Business Insider about pg is pretty misleading. Airbnb
Investor Suggests Ransacked Airbnb User Is Lying
[http://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-ransackgate-paul-
graha...](http://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-ransackgate-paul-
graham-2011-7)

------
llambda
How about we flag any new article related to this particular story (including
this one) until an article provides some new information; rehashing the same
story over and over and over is really getting tiring...

(From what I'm reading, there is absolutely nothing new going on here.)

------
shuw
I'm still confused by the outrage. I'm not an expert but a 1/2MM incidence
rate seems pristinely low compared to the baseline risk of burglaries. If
those 2MM homeowners had not used AirBNB, how many of their homes would have
been robbed?

AirBnB should definitely add supplemental insurance; which should be low due
to such a great record.

------
mpclark
Plot thickens? I see no thickening of the plot here, or even any substantive
new information. Just a me-too article with a slightly clever headline...

------
Havoc
>unnamed co-founder asked her to "shut down the blog altogether or limit its
access," and suggested she "update the blog with a 'twist' of good news so as
to 'complete[s] the story.'"

Its as if they forgot about the 5m incentive & industrial strength NDAs.
Nothing good can come of this for Airbnb, so fix it...quietly & speedily.

She is justifiably distressed and clearly willing to post what is essentially
a PR _disaster_ online, so why isn't Airbnb on top of this, doing everything
in their power to make her feel better? At the very least they could set her
up in a hotel & meet her face to face. Clearly they are doing something very
very wrong here:

>Airbnb’s reaction, the pressure and the veiled threat

------
geuis
I find it hard to believe, yet I have been unable to find any public search
for California arrest records. Just loads of pay to search sites that are
ranking too high.

------
gobongo
Have any news sources stated whether or not EJ owns the place that got
ransacked? I often see it referred to as her "apartment" in various places and
was curious if she actually owned it or was a renter who was subletting it
herself? Perhaps part of the problem Airbnb has coming fully clean with the
entire story is the whole can of worms that potentially opens up if/when it
becomes common knowledge that a lot of their business is built on subletting
that isn't even technically legal (according to most rental contracts) in the
first place.

~~~
aonic
Her blog post here [http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-year-new-
hom...](http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-year-new-home.html)
mentions that its a rented apartment.

I quickly rented a place of my own and began to settle in – unpacking dusty
boxes, unloading suitcases and scouring the internet for furniture. Something
along the lines of a home began to take shape, and with it came that
invaluable feeling of being at peace.

------
avjinder
Airbnb should be very cautious right now and re-think their home-rental
policies carefully or it could come back to bite them in the ass. Airbnb
cannot put EJ up in a 5 star hotel, get her free stuff and get her house
redecorated because that would result in a lot of copycats and opportunists
who would rent their houses on Airbnb and then themselves trash it and blame
Airbnb for it. Because there won't be any other proof other than the victim's
word, and the Internet would again rally against Airbnb, they will have to
repeat the same pattern again and put the victim in 5 star hotels etc etc.,
and before they know it they're hemorrhaging more money than they make and
fighting to keep their startup alive. So don't rush to conclusions about the
hard-heartedness or ham-fistedness of the Airbnb founders. This has happened
to them for the first time and they're bewildered that they're getting so much
hate from strangers and I believe they must be helping poor EJ in some way or
the other.

~~~
CamperBob
_Airbnb cannot put EJ up in a 5 star hotel, get her free stuff and get her
house redecorated because that would result in a lot of copycats and
opportunists who would rent their houses on Airbnb and then themselves trash
it and blame Airbnb for it._

This problem is trivial to avoid, by the simple expedient of requiring a
police report. The police don't take kindly to being used as patsies for
insurance fraud.

------
forkandwait
Is anybody looking into the big hotels and any possibility they are connected
here?

------
stephth
So what's new in the world of hacking guys?

~~~
stephth
Phew, -5 points already? Some people are edgy around here.

Genuine question: what does this article add that top HN posts haven't covered
yet? Is it the simple fact that USAToday-Travel talked about it?

------
kgtm
"Obviously, the financial damages have been significant, but it has come down
to a matter of principle and how I feel they disregarded me and my situation,"
she said. "I still hurt, and I don't know how you make that right."

But she does know. She implicitly states that Airbnb should have reimbursed
her for her financial losses, and since they didn't nudge, she will now
crucify them because of her "principles". By all means i was sympathetic
towards her, but this is getting tiring. Spiteful even.

~~~
famousactress
Yeah.. but being disappointed with how EJ and AirBnB handled the situation
aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, I frankly don't care all that much how
gracefully someone who's apartment gets ransacked handles things. It's not as
material to me as the way a company that I might choose to do business with
handles the situation.

~~~
kgtm
It seems like AirBnB is now, because of this event, creating a framework to
shield the company and their users from similar mishaps (details provided in
the article). Which shows they are listening.

I think they should be judged on that framework, when it is finally in place,
instead of this single incident.

~~~
bbb7777777
You make a good point about judging them on how well they learn from this
mistake. My concern is they may come up with a good framework, but then can't
execute the solution well. In this case the solution means little. And this
incident has cast doubt on their ability to execute.

Then again, it may only be one bad incident, and every small company has
those.

What troubles me most is the claim they attempted to cover it up, so I'm not
sure how many times an incident like this has happened.

~~~
chrischen
They didn't attempt to "cover it up." That's just media spin. They attempted
to resolve the matter silently, which, honestly, is a perfectly reasonable
request.

But clearly the issue is beyond reconciliation as the woman is requesting
something Airbnb can't fix (and technically didn't cause). Perhaps exposing
the situation to the world might help her find the "problem" and thus the
solution.

