
Zen Stories - nkanaev
http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/
======
throwanem
"Finding a Diamond on a Muddy Road":

> Modern Zen teachers in Japan spring from the lineage of a famous master who
> was the successor of Gudo. His name was Mu-nan, the man who never returned
> back.

What happened to his family? It's great that he achieved enlightenment and
all, if that's what actually happened, but it's very curious that an epiphany
centered around his failure to uphold his responsibilities to his loved ones
resulted in his abandoning said loved ones for the remainder of his life.

I hesitate to say this makes a good example of the essential self-absorption
I've observed in a lot of Zen philosophy, but this makes a good example of the
essential self-absorption I've observed in a lot of Zen philosophy. What good
are you, what worth have you, if you spend all your energy making yourself
precious and ignore the world as it crumbles to dust around you?

~~~
gerbilly
>What happened to his family? It's great that he achieved enlightenment and
all, if that's what actually happened, but it's very curious that an epiphany
centered around his failure to uphold his responsibilities to his loved ones
resulted in his abandoning said loved ones for the remainder of his life.

The Buddha himself, who was a prince from the Shakya clan, has been criticized
for leaving his wife and family behind to begin the life of an ascetic.

However I wonder if we would be criticizing him as much if he had left for
war, since his clan was a warrior clan.

Who criticizes any great general or conqueror in history for leaving his
family behind, and why not?

~~~
tmptmp
>>Who criticizes any great general or conqueror in history for leaving his
family behind, and why not?

Many people (mainly pacifists) criticize such great generals for being war-
thirsty or violent.

I think, Buddha is rightly criticized for not performing his duty towards his
family and then going on preaching other people to care for all other people.

Other point, I think, Buddha is rightly criticized for is to do with non-
violence: too much insistence on non-violence actually resulted in tolerance
of even the intolerants and which is not good.

It reminds me what Obama rightly said while receiving Noble peace prize: "But
as a head of state sworn to protect and defend my nation, I cannot be guided
by their examples alone. I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in
the face of threats to the American people. For make no mistake: Evil does
exist in the world. A non-violent movement could not have halted Hitler's
armies. Negotiations cannot convince al Qaeda's leaders to lay down their
arms. To say that force may sometimes be necessary is not a call to cynicism
-- it is a recognition of history; the imperfections of man and the limits of
reason." [1]

[1] [https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/remarks-
presiden...](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/remarks-president-
acceptance-nobel-peace-prize)

~~~
wahern
Arguably one of the functions of religion is to induce people to work for the
benefit of the larger community at the expense of themselves and their family.
That's not an insignificant feat given the evolutionary pressures to cheat the
community for the benefit of yourself and your relations.

It shouldn't be surprising that religion will, on the one hand, pay lip
service regarding familial obligations, while ultimately emphasize attending
to the community's needs and propagation of the religion. Often times the
latter (community and religion) will be defined in terms of familial
obligations. And familial obligations (especially filial obligations, e.g.
obeying your parents) serve to prime people's acceptance of external
authority, such as adoption of framing devices and conceptual models.

I'm not trying to be cynical. The tensions are obvious and must be resolved
somehow. Sometimes inevitable contradictions must be swept under the rug or
explained away. And often times one role serves multiple, seemingly
contradictory functions. The complexity is compounded as the self-identifying
community grows larger and deeper.

Religion is hardly the only area of social life that must handle these issues,
and I don't mean to bash religion or to circumscribe the roles and functions
of religion. Similar tensions and contradictions can be found _within_ family
life.

In any event, like a Zen Koan if you think to literally about the problem--
filial vs individual vs community obligations--you'll miss the forest for the
trees. I don't think there's an answer except to accept the contradiction and
attempt to maximize service to your obligations (in as much as you accept
them). Obviously how you qualitatively and quantitatively measure things will
strongly dictate where the optimum is, and different religions will counsel
different equilibriums for identical circumstances.

~~~
tmptmp
>>And familial obligations (especially filial obligations, e.g. obeying your
parents) serve to prime people's acceptance of external authority, such as
adoption of framing devices and conceptual models.

Can you elaborate a bit on framing devices and conceptual models? I didn't
quite get it.

>>In any event, like a Zen Koan if you think to literally about the problem--
filial vs individual vs community obligations--you'll miss the forest for the
trees.

By forest exactly what are you referring to? BTW, we must not miss the
parental and other familial obligations too.

>>Obviously how you qualitatively and quantitatively measure things will
strongly dictate where the optimum is, and different religions will counsel
different equilibriums for identical circumstances.

Very well said. I liked this very much. So much for the people (especially
some religion apologists) who insist that all religions are equal as their
core messages are same.

~~~
wahern
By framing devices I meant things like, most simply, obedience to authority.
Arguably one of the defining elements of Confucianism is an equivocation
between filial duties, on the one hand, and duties to increasingly distant and
abstract social relations on the other. By contrast, in Christianity you just
have "obey your parents" on the one hand, and "render unto ceasar what is his"
on the other, which doesn't dictate the particulars of how authority operates
in a society to the same degree that it's dictated by Confucianism.

But also, for example, devices that teach you to think of the good of the
community as a good accruing directly to you. In other words, a hijacking of
selfishness. Many religions teach that good deeds and sacrifice will accrue a
benefit to you in an afterlife.

I just didn't want to suggest that religion necessarily turns people into
sheeple, to be inevitably abused by elites. That's often a consequence, but
that's hardly always the case. And that's a possible consequence of culture
more generally, not just religion. In this sense I think of culture as the
underlying phenomenon that makes religion and other forms of complex social
organization possible in the face of the counter-veiling Darwinian genetic
forces; as opposed to culture referring to the beliefs and habits of a
particular community. And I usually distinguish religion from other social
structures by reliance on magical thinking, though magical thinking is hardly
exclusive to religion.

I don't have a degree in psychology or anthropology or anything, so my
personal models and definitions aren't academically rigorous. Though I studied
international relations in undergraduate school, and I ended up reading quite
a lot of economic, sociologic, and anthropologic literature on these issues.

~~~
tmptmp
Thanks a lot. It helped.

------
SamBam
Was the text added using OCR? I ask because I see a number of text errors that
look like that.

* "1" for "l" ([http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/009/](http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/009/))

* Unmatched quotation marks or differing symbols (‘ vs ') ([http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/002/](http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/002/))

* Several times I've seen "yon" for "you" ([http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/004/](http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/004/))

* "l" for "r" (loom/room) ([http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/099/](http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/099/))

If so, what's the original source for these stories? I don't see credits
anywhere, though I am probably just missing them.

~~~
fenomas
Yeah, definitely. E.g. mistaking "alone" for "done":

    
    
        he used to travel done as a wandering mendicant
    

As for the source, this[0] archive of a 1957 book has the same typo, so I'm
guessing that's where it came from?

[0]
[https://archive.org/stream/ZenFleshZenBones/zen_djvu.txt](https://archive.org/stream/ZenFleshZenBones/zen_djvu.txt)

~~~
evmar
I recognize the stories from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones (I have an old paper copy).

~~~
SamBam
And, although the stories may be ancient, the translation is presumably not.
Are these out of copyright?

------
fishmonekypizza
Is this a copy?

[http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html](http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html)

That ashida kim zen koan site has been on the interwebs for a long time. The
story order is the same, and the names look the same too.

~~~
dudleyf
This particular collection of koans was assembled and published in 1919, so I
guess copyright has expired.

------
zem
A later addition that I've seen to "Not Far From Buddhahood"
([http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/016/](http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/016/)),
most likely via anonymous folk process:

The Christian then reads the Beatitudes, and Gasan exclaims "whoever spoke
those words is radiant with divinity!". The overjoyed man rushes to the
church, faces the altar, and cries out "Jesus! I got that Buddhist to confess
that you were divine!". And from the heavens a loving voice replies "And other
than inflating your ego, what good did it do?"

------
miesman
On the topic - I found these books helpful:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Flesh,_Zen_Bones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Flesh,_Zen_Bones)
(which includes 101 zen stories)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Mind,_Beginner%27s_Mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Mind,_Beginner%27s_Mind)

~~~
gf263
Both of these are awesome. More so Zen mind.

~~~
garyrob
I've read both. Zen Flesh, Zen Bones, is very good, but Zen Mind, Beginner's
Mind is a transcendent and very useful classic if you are actively engaged in
zazen practice.

------
rainhacker
"Finding a Diamond on a Muddy Road"

> ‘I will help him,’ said Gudo.

Zen master's actions had the opposite effect. The drunk man's wife was
precisely worried about her husband going one day and never coming back.

> Sometimes when becomes thoroughly drunk he does not come home at all. What
> can I do?

After Gudo's lesson, he left his family forever.

~~~
gbuk2013
> Zen master's actions had the opposite effect.

No, the Zen master's actions had the intended effect. He said "I will help
him" and he did exactly that.

~~~
rainhacker
You are right. Master said he will help the man not his wife. Thanks!

------
JoeDaDude
Genuinely curious: Are these koans? [1] Or are koans and Zen stories different
somehow?

TIA,

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dan)

~~~
devuo
Nope, these are not koans. I recommend D.T. Suzuki essays on zen buddhism,
namely second series for a proper explanation of the koan exercise.

Apparently the author of the blog only focused on japanese zen stories, which
is unfortunate, as the stories of chinese zen masters — where zen as a school
of buddhism was founded — are as truthful, if not more original, than the
japanese stories the author selected.

------
akeck
The site's html and css have Zen-like clarity.

~~~
corobo
It's also hard to see the big picture (toc) and where to go next unless you
really focus. _panflutes_

------
j2kun
After reading "Is that so?" I wonder whether the story still applies with the
internet of today, where (for the average person) a smeared reputation remains
online even after corrections are made.

------
sweetjesus
_I send this message to the current YC batch this afternoon:_

Don't Read The Zen Stories

\- Zen-sama

