
Standing Desks – Save your back, change your life - wlscaudill
http://getthinktank.com/2015/06/19/standing-desks/
======
analog31
Thanks for the nice post. I'm already a convert. I was suffering from some
neck pain issues, which have gone away. In fact I'm kinda the "standing desk
guy" at my workplace.

Here's the remaining problem. I work in an open-plan office area, I've got a
desk that can be raised and lowered. But my desk is next to a hallway with a
lot of traffic.

When I'm standing to work, I'm face to face with a colleague who is very
curious about what I do, and likes to get into conversations. And I think that
because I'm standing up, everybody who walks buy thinks that I am the
receptionist for my entire work group: "Is Bill here today? Do you know if
Steve went to his meeting? When does Chris usually come in?"

And when someone comes to ask me a legitimate question, all of my colleagues
feel free to join the discussion, sometimes answering my question -- wrong --
before I can get a word in edgewise.

These are more open-office issues than standing-desk issues, but I'm just
offering a warning that y'all in open plan offices may have some additional
issues to contend with when you switch to a standing desk.

Style-wise, I'd love to have one of those gray metal foreman's desks that they
had in old the fashioned factories.

~~~
kevinmchugh
Does your office culture respect headphones as a request to not be
interrupted? Hunting earmuffs are useful if you don't want to actually listen
to music. I've used [http://smile.amazon.com/3M-Peltor-H10A-Optime-
Earmuff/dp/B00...](http://smile.amazon.com/3M-Peltor-H10A-Optime-
Earmuff/dp/B00009LI4K) off and on for almost 3.5 years and they're comfortable
for hours at a time and block most noise very effectively.

~~~
analog31
Right now my office culture respects pretty much nothing. Mine is the second
work group to have an open plan, ever. The open plan was chosen for us because
Collaboration [1]. So, we are the pioneers. My boss is sympathetic about this,
but we are both treading the political waters carefully. When the entourage of
managers brings an Executive through the facility on the obligatory inspection
tour, they always come down my hallway and are shown the Open Collaboration
Area. It has been declared to be a success, by default.

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy about my job, and have places where I can
go when I need to think. I use my "office" as a lab.

[1] The open plan seems to work for some kinds of collaboration and not other
kinds. It's great for social interaction, brainstorming, and quickly getting
help. I think it's helped the newer employees come up to speed and develop
internal networks more quickly.

It doesn't work for more substantive collaboration, especially crossing
multiple departments and work sites, because many kinds of discussions can't
be conducted in front of an audience.

Chatting with managers, I've noticed a strong misconception, that manager work
needs private offices, and engineer work doesn't.

------
buro9
My current favoured solution:

1\. Take any desk

2\. Put an Ergotron WorkFit T on it.

It's this:
[http://www.ergotron.com/ProductsDetails/tabid/65/PRDID/915/l...](http://www.ergotron.com/ProductsDetails/tabid/65/PRDID/915/language/en-
GB/Default.aspx)

The neat things about it: it raises straight up and down, it's cheap, it fits
any standard desk, it accounts for keyboard, it's highly stable.

It just works, and it's so cheap that it's the go-to solution.

~~~
r00fus
Is ~$400 cheap? I agree it looks like a well-thought-out solution.

~~~
buro9
When the article's 2nd option is an ugly hack and comes out as over $400, and
you probably already have a desk and this works better and looks better... I'd
say it was a damn good price.

~~~
wlscaudill
From my research $400 is a very good price. This isn't mobile from room to
room like the cart is. Everything has it's tradeoffs...

------
725686
I it works for you, fine, but I think the standing desk is more of a
trendy/cool thing:

[http://www.fitdeskjockey.com/7-reasons-why-you-dont-want-
a-s...](http://www.fitdeskjockey.com/7-reasons-why-you-dont-want-a-standing-
workstation)

~~~
blowski
Agreed. My doctor said to me that a lot of people raving about standing desks
in their 20s will have serious regrets about them in their 50s. He also said
that being seated but moving around for a few minutes every hour was fine,
which is a similar point to that made in the article - standing still for an
hour is just as inactive as sitting still for an hour.

~~~
darkstar999
> standing still for an hour is just as inactive as sitting still for an hour.

That's not true. Everything I have read about it says that standing burns more
calories. I notice that I shift my weight and move my legs, etc, when I am
standing. It's marginal, but there is definitely a difference.

~~~
blowski
I'm no health expert, so take what I say with a pinch of (low-sodium) salt.
However, it does seem to me that the amount of calories you burn standing up
for a few hours is not going to make much difference to your health.

~~~
darkstar999
I've had less back pain since I started standing at work, and I've heard many
similar stories.

You can also "walk in place" to get the heart rate up. Good luck doing that in
a chair.

~~~
wlscaudill
Lots of swaying helps keep everything loose as well as keeping focused on
using the leg muscles to support yourself instead of relaxing and letting the
cartilage do all the work which is the only real concern I've come across for
a standing desk.

------
melling
Here's a prior HN discussion on affordable standing desks that I have in my
notes:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8552613](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8552613)

I question his choice of keyboards. Most keyboards use cheap rubber dome
switches and not mechanical ones. People will spend a lot of money on a good
keyboard like this Kickstarter project:

[https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/keyboardio/the-
model-01...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/keyboardio/the-model-01-an-
heirloom-grade-keyboard-for-seriou)

...or build their own like an ErgoDox:

[http://www.ergodox.org](http://www.ergodox.org)

This StackOverFlow sister site question illustrates several mechanical
switches: [http://superuser.com/questions/366221/differences-between-
ch...](http://superuser.com/questions/366221/differences-between-cherry-
mechanical-keyboard-switches)

~~~
MichaelGG
The problem is there's no good ergo layouts with mechanical switches.
Something like the MS Ergo 4000 or Sculpt, with Cherry MXes.

Closest I've found is the Matias Ergo Pro[1], but it has several inexplicably
bad design decisions. Dedicated Copy paste undo buttons, that just send
ctrl-z,x,c,v. Awkward positioning of Ctrl and Escape for no reason. Terrible
crappy little arrow keys. Really weird shit like having a USB hub, then
putting the port on the inside with no space to plug things in. After using it
for a month, I'm still often making mistakes and will probably go back to the
MS Sculpt, which at least has scissor switches instead of the terrible domes.

It's like every keyboard designer to do ergo has had a stroke and
intentionally messes stuff up. Kinesis is stuck in the 90s with their huge
success and terrible look (and again, weird layout). The Keyboardio is
probably the least offensive, as long as the modifier key system is smooth.
It's stupid that in 2015 we still don't have great keyboards. The
stackoverflow guy's CODE keyboard even focused on backlights. Who the hell is
spending $100+ on keyboards and can't touch type? Strange market I suppose.

1: [http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/](http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/)

~~~
cholantesh
Have you tried the Kinesis Advantage? For typing, I haven't had a better
experience.

~~~
MichaelGG
I have not. The design and size put me off. Plus I really want to avoid a
different key layout, as it raises my error rate (and hand stress). This is
important because I move about and sometimes use a laptop keyboard.

But maybe I'll have to give it a shot. I just don't see what's so hard about
taking a normal ergo keyboard and making it with proper switches.

~~~
cholantesh
If you need to be mobile then it may not be a great choice; it's pretty
cumbersome. I've been looking at the Matias Ergo Pro which looks like a better
choice for someone on the go. However, I think the layout is just something
that requires a bit of getting used to; after about a month I got really used
to it and switching back and forth has gotten easier with use of both it and a
standard keyboard.

Additionally, not sure if it matters to you, but it is terrible for gaming.

------
CPLX
I appreciate the sentiment of this blog post, but wow, those are some
seriously ugly creations to have to look at all day.

~~~
wlscaudill
I need to update the pictures of the IKEA desk and cart as they don't look too
bad. The mobile desk on the other hand is not all that pretty but it's a work
in progress and should get better over time... "Functional first, sexy
second!" I'll suffer an ugly desk that allows me to fly anywhere on the planet
and work comfortably enough.

------
thruflo
We do an open source one you can make yourself
[https://www.opendesk.cc/lean/standing-
desk](https://www.opendesk.cc/lean/standing-desk)

~~~
anotherevan
Still wanting to see a design for a height adjustable sit/standing desk.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6234588](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6234588)

~~~
thruflo
The standing desk is sit / stand height adjustable.

It is quite heavy, realistically taking two people to adjust, so you wouldn't
normally adjust it too often but it has three heights: standing, bar and
sitting, as outlined in the description.

------
programminggeek
I've got a sort of wacky treadmill desk setup in my basement. Got a cheap
treadmill off of Craigslist for like $200, spent maybe $15 on a simple shelf
board and a piece of foam I cut up to get the shelf at the right height, and I
got the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Keyboard and Logitech M570 trackball mouse,
both are amazing.

I don't walk constantly, but it's a fantastic setup.

~~~
atwebb
Pretty much exactly what I did, $25 treadmill at a yard sale, lay a board
across the arms for a "desk", have a shelf mounted on the wall above the
treadmill console for my monitor and hook the laptop up to a wireless
keyboard/mouse set.

------
rimantas
Standing Desks—replace one set of health problems with a different set.

~~~
atom_enger
Can you elaborate on this? I'm debating whether or not I should get one.

~~~
bdkoepke
Sit-stand desk is probably the best with the information we currently have.

[http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/13/the-dangers-of-
sitting...](http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/13/the-dangers-of-sitting-at-
work%E2%80%94and-standing/)
[http://vuir.vu.edu.au/21403/1/Van_Uffelen_Occupational_sitti...](http://vuir.vu.edu.au/21403/1/Van_Uffelen_Occupational_sitting_and_health_risks_Am_J_Prev_Med.pdf)

Like everything in life, moderation is the key. If you are getting up and down
from your desk regularly anyway then the health benefits wouldn't be very
large. Standing all day isn't particularly good for you either.

I believe the science is still out on this. My main issue with the current
studies is that the occupations are different. For instance, what is the
difference in stress between a GP and an accountant? As far as I'm aware,
there haven't been any studies that compare mortality that control for the
'same occupation'. The studies thus-far have only shown that people who have
occupations that require standing tend to have lower all-cause mortality than
those whose occupations usually involve sitting. If there is such a study then
I’m interested in reading it.

~~~
jerf
"I believe the science is still out on this."

As near as I can tell, the science verges on non-existant... there's a few
studies that sample a smidge of the space, but nowhere near enough to draw
very interesting conclusions.

Standing desks seem to help, at least in the short term, but the question is,
_why_? If, for instance, they help because the people in the study are, well,
average Americans, and the standing desks help develop core muscle strength,
yes, that will improve their lives. But if it is about that, then you could
probably do much better with much less effort by directly performing exercises
that strengthen your core, without incurring the risk of knee damage from a
standing desk. And of course if standing is good for some other reason, that
won't help the problems at all. As near as I can tell, science has nothing to
say about this particular rather simple question yet. We have roughly one
point in the relevant space and a whole bunch of people drawing a lot of lines
through it very excitedly based on biases and preconceived notions, but
nowhere near enough data. Or, basically, business as usual in the world of
health and fitness. (Sadly.)

Personally I focus on strength training directly and leave the standing desk
issue aside. YMMV. (Which I mean seriously. Like it or not, you have to put
your chips down based on what you know now, not the science of 2060.) Let's
all get together and compare notes in 30 years.

~~~
wlscaudill
Great comment, personally I do rock climbing and Ashtanga yoga for my core
strengthening and I agree that you should work on improved overall strength. A
big win on the standing desk is the allowance of high amounts of movement
(especially when very focused on the screen). Things like the SI joints and
the sacrum which get zero movement from sitting. Lots of swaying helps keep
everything loose as well as keeping focused on using the leg muscles to
support yourself instead of relaxing and letting the cartilage do all the
work.

------
ljk
Tried standing desk for a while, imo something that should also be done is
film yourself standing for a period of time so you can tell if your standing
posture is correct; if you're standing the wrong way then it's pretty much
useless

------
jseliger
Good article. I just submitted a similar one:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9873773](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9873773)
. I use a GeekDesk: [http://jakeseliger.com/2015/01/24/geekdesk-max-sit-stand-
des...](http://jakeseliger.com/2015/01/24/geekdesk-max-sit-stand-desk-review-
two-years-with-a-motorized-desk/) and wouldn't go back to a normal desk if I
could at all avoid it.

------
frandroid
I use the now discontinued Ikea Fjus shelf unit
([https://samnangp.wordpress.com/2009/11/28/ikea-shelf-
project...](https://samnangp.wordpress.com/2009/11/28/ikea-shelf-project-3/;)
now available as a Gorm, Hejne or Ivar, all of which have one less shelf)
which I have adjusted. One shelf is my external keyboard tray, another shelf
is my macbook support, at eye level. $30 standing desk.

------
quaffapint
I've found if you work from home getting a dog does wonders.

I no longer can sit for any major length of time since he wants to go out and
play at least every hour during the day. It's amazing how much better things
got all around both mentally and physically taking those 'dog breaks'.

------
fizixer
What about the feet? You'll start having problems associated with long
standing hours[1]?

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-
term_complications_of_sta...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-
term_complications_of_standing)

------
mhurron
I put one in at home, and work from home more now. The one thing that isn't
the standing desk that makes it work, that is also mentioned in the article,
is a wireless headset. Without it, that desk would be a total pain in the ass
to work at.

------
pimpl
I've been using this one in the office for some time and it's really
comfortable and visually pleasing as well:
[http://biurkobiurko.com/](http://biurkobiurko.com/)

~~~
akilism
these look pretty nice.

------
vjrobinson
Dang - I spent nearly $1000 on mine UpliftDesk. This could've saved me a ton.
Beauty is if you pack your bags and work remote from some other geography you
can take this sucker with you - amazing!

------
odiroot
There is one question though, what about varicose veins forming in legs due to
prolonged standing?

~~~
wlscaudill
Lots of swaying and occasionally stepping back and fourth a few times is
important and will keep the blood moving which combats things like varicose
veins. There is no substitute for taking breaks and getting a good walk in...

------
surajgupta
Really appreciate the level of detail of this blog post. Thank you!

