
My NSA Records - Submit a FOIA Request or Motion to Quash - JDGM
http://www.mynsarecords.com/
======
just2n
The secrecy of the information FOIA is supposed to help alleviate (it doesn't
really because it's a catch-22) bothers me a lot.

If the government is amassing information on individuals to prove guilt of
some crime, by withholding that information from counsel, it's very possible
that evidence that proves the individual is completely innocent may be
destroyed inadvertently since the individual has no idea what they might be
someday accused of.

~~~
tsaoutourpants
There are tons of problems with the NSA having this data, and I think they are
just beginning to learn that. There's a news headline out there now that a
bank robbery suspect has now requested his NSA records to prove he wasn't
there. The shit is about to hit the fan (or "additional shit" I should say!)

Of course, you could always keep a copy of every phone bill you receive if you
want permanent proof of what you were up to.

~~~
chris_mahan
You'd have to prove that it was you talking on the phone. You'd need a
recording of the conversation for the judge to be sure.

~~~
genwin
Presumably the NSA knows his location during the bank robbery, via his cell
phone data. He needn't have been talking on the phone at the time. If his
location was miles away then he should be off the hook.

~~~
taftster
Assuming he didn't leave it with his cousin Cletus who placed the phone call
instead. NSA metadata does not help the accused in any way.

~~~
genwin
It would be a piece of evidence to counter the prosecution's evidence against
him. If his DNA is on the money, it won't help much. But if the prosecution
has no hard evidence, it could form reasonable doubt of guilt.

------
elmuchoprez
Is this legit? It kind of feels like those old scam ads that would say, "Has
your credit card number been stolen? Enter here to find out!".

Why, especially in the light of recent privacy concerns, would I just hand
over my full name, address and phone number and allow someone I have no
relationship with mail a legal document on my behalf?

~~~
tsaoutourpants
Hello, creator of the Web site here. You can click through the contact page to
find out more about me, but I've been fighting government invasion of privacy
for several years now. I was the top story on HN for about 3 days last year
when I posted a video of me beating TSA nude bdy scanners. I want nothing more
than to send the NSA and FISA court a million requests for info! :)

~~~
JDGM
"tsaou...tour pants...???... tsao u to ur pants??? ... ts a out our pan ts...
TSA out our pants! Got it!"

PS. In submitting this - _your_ Web page (!!) - I was hoping to get some
feedback from wise old HNers as to whether it was legit or not. Though the
page out of context seems _faintly_ scam-like ("We will mail your request for
FREE!" "We've got a lot of printing and mailing to do, and can only do it with
your support!"), it seemed to check out with the other pages on the site and
all the information about you so I figured it was fine, but still was
interested in what other folks made of it. I wasn't expecting the author
himself to be the first to assure people with his previous HN credentials!
Great stuff, and keep up the awesome work.

~~~
tsaoutourpants
Thanks for sharing it! If you have any ideas for how to make it seem less
sketchy while still conveying that we're going to send a free request for you,
let me know!

~~~
JDGM
Needless to say, it's a little unfair of me to so casually and easily remark
"the page out of context seems _faintly_ scam-like" without pinpointing
exactly _why_ , and offering "ideas for how to make it seem less sketchy".
This kind of thing is also very subjective, anyway! However, in my opinion, it
might be an improvement to drop the caps on "FREE" and perhaps the exclamation
marks on the two quoted sentences too. The comment around here by "stfu" about
the buttons is also interesting, and hadn't even occurred to me, but seems
like a good observation.

~~~
tsaoutourpants
No offense taken -- it's good to be skeptical! I've taken your suggestion and
un-caps'd and changed some punctuation. :)

------
hamsoken
Regarding the motion to quash, it seems as though it would be rejected
outright by the court clerk since you're not filing it in person and I'm
guessing there is a motion fee to file with the court.

I am a lawyer and would be interested in helping you make this more effective,
if you are interested.

~~~
tsaoutourpants
Would certainly be up for your input -> jon [at] professional-troublemaker.com
.

I don't believe the FISA court has established filing fees, simply because
they typically only get requests from the government. Their rules:

[http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/rules/FISC2010.pdf](http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/rules/FISC2010.pdf)

------
tsaoutourpants
Before I put up MyNSARecords, I was curious as to whether more people would
want a copy or want them deleted. Thought you might find it interesting: the
"want a copy" crowd outnumbers the "delete" crowd by about 4 to 1.

~~~
siphor
Makes sense to me =) I just asked for a copy. I want to know what they are
tracking and how fully, also a Freedom of Information Act sounds like they are
more likely to comply than to Quash it. Of course, I would like to have it
deleted after I get my copy...

~~~
tsaoutourpants
There should be nothing in the way of requesting both, I suppose. You could
write the NSA and the FISC a motion to provide a copy and then destroy.
_shrugs_

------
alan_cx
Only Americans? Or can the rest of us yet to be proven not terrorists apply
too?

~~~
dsl
If you are not American, our laws apply to you, but not our rights. So you are
out of luck if you want to file a FOIA.

~~~
iamdave
_If you are not American, our laws apply to you_

Huh??

Even if someone is physically _not_ in the US? Have I misunderstood something
for a very long time?

~~~
GoodIntentions
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Emery](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Emery)

There are other examples. This is the one that came to mind most readily. I
don't smoke up. I don't support Marc Emery. I was however, ashamed at how nut-
less my government was in handing him over.

------
tjohns
I find it ironic that that the "quash" option on the site doesn't tell you the
address that will be used for mailing your request to the FISA court.

It would be nice if the site published instructions on submitting these
requests yourself.

On a related note, I'd love to know: 1\. How does one typically file a motion
with the FISA court, given that they don't have a website or any public
contact information that I can find? 2\. What's the probability of these
"quash" requests even being considered, given that nobody other than the USG
is technically party to the case?

~~~
tsaoutourpants
1) FISA court rules, including how to file a motion:
[http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/rules/FISC2010.pdf](http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/rules/FISC2010.pdf)

2) Probably slim, but again, it's a matter of petitioning your government for
redress -- a protest. You certainly have "standing," so I don't imagine the
reason will be that you're "not a party," but they'll likely find some reason
to deny them.

------
GabrielF00
Of course if they don't have a file on you, and you send them a FOIA request,
they may open up a file on you just for the purposes of handling your
request...

~~~
jlgreco
That is why after your first FOIA request you send _another_ FOIA request that
requests all correspondence and documents generated as a result of your first.
Rinse and repeat until you find an attractor. ;)

------
DuskStar
Doesn't a FOIA request have fees associated with it? Will the government just
bill you for it when they provide documents?

~~~
LoganCale
> There is no initial fee required to submit a FOIA request, but the FOIA does
> provide for the charging of certain types of fees in some instances.

> For a typical requester the agency can charge for the time it takes to
> search for records and for duplication of those records. There is usually no
> charge for the first two hours of search time or for the first 100 pages of
> duplication.

[http://www.foia.gov/faq.html#cost](http://www.foia.gov/faq.html#cost)

~~~
outside1234
"You may request a waiver of fees. Under the FOIA fee waivers are limited to
situations in which a requester can show that the disclosure of the requested
information is in the public interest because it is likely to contribute
significantly to public understanding of the operations and activities of the
government and is not primarily in the commercial interest of the requester."

Sounds like that applies to most everyone to me!

~~~
tsaoutourpants
Also, regarding fees, I really don't expect that the NSA is going to respond
to your FOIA request without a fight, so I personally think it's a non-issue.
The idea here is the protest, not an expectation that you'll actually get your
records!

------
trebor
Could somebody explain the Motion to Quash who has an understanding of it? I
thought it only applied to a subpoena, and so would not apply without one.

~~~
DuskStar
I don't have a full understanding of it, but I think a Motion to Quash
basically asks the court to say "This information was collected illegally or
outside the investigative scope, and you may not use it as evidence (and thus
must destroy it)"

~~~
doki_pen
It seems like the distinction that the NSA is trying to make is that, it's not
illegal to possess the data, only to look at it. That argument may even extend
to automatic processes that aren't seen by human eyes, who knows. If you
happen to get a warrant in the future, you'll be able to "travel back in time"
to see all communications of the person in question. The most maddening part
of all this is that no one outside the government is even allowed to know the
rules.

~~~
tsaoutourpants
Correct that this appears to be their argument, but that argument holds not a
chance. Imagine if police searched houses randomly but "weren't allowed to use
what they found unless they got a warrant." I believe this argument will be
squarely and unanimously rejected by SCOTUS.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Imagine if police searched houses randomly but "weren't allowed to use what
> they found unless they got a warrant."

The main remedy for illegal police searches is exclusion of the evidence if,
and when, the government attempts to use it in court (and then, usually, only
if they attempt to use it against the specific person whose rights were
violated by the search, and not always even then [e.g., good faith exception,
and other exceptions to the exclusionary rule].)

~~~
tsaoutourpants
That's the main remedy in criminal court. If the police unlawfully search your
house, you can also sue them in civil court for both money and injunctive
relief.

------
rallison
Note that you can also submit a request directly on the NSA's FOIA page:
[http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/submit_foia_request/foia...](http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/submit_foia_request/foia_request_form.shtml)

~~~
tsaoutourpants
You could, but I like the idea of them having to deal with a paper copy! :)

~~~
alanh
IMO, you should state this possibility and your own sentiment directly on your
website. Let the people decide!

------
jjsz
Can't I just give them my name, and my Google Voice number, and in return get
all the information they have on me or will they only give me the information
they have on my Google Voice number?

~~~
tsaoutourpants
You need to provide an address for them to send you the information. :)

------
nzealand
There are nine exemptions to the FOIA (that we know of)

[http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/](http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/)

~~~
tsaoutourpants
I'm not sure any of them apply anymore. The government's best argument is
probably, "Just because their existence was disclosed doesn't mean it's not
still classified!" But, I've seen that argument before in court cases, and
IIRC, a court ruled that if the disclosure is reliable enough such that
everyone knows it's true and therefore it's obviously not a secret, the docs
must be released.

------
binarymax
Does filing the FOIA make the information public to all? I would just quash if
this is the case.

~~~
tsaoutourpants
Good question! While I can't give legal advice, it is my understanding that
the answer is NO! :)

------
nextstep
This is awesome. Whoever did this a should add a bitcoin address for
donations.

~~~
tsaoutourpants
On my to-do list for tomorrow!

------
mtgx
You should submit it to a few subreddits, too.

~~~
tsaoutourpants
I did, but Reddit has a nasty habit of deleting my posts, generally silently
(so it looks to me like they're still there but no one else can see). I was
actually silent banned from Reddit for a year by an automatic spam filter's
mistake. Really sucks.

You all can feel free to try on my behalf tho! Perhaps you have a more
established account.

