
Daring Fireball: Amazon's New Kindles - krishna2
http://daringfireball.net/2011/09/amazons_new_kindles
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vailripper
I don't understand this:"The iPad is a credible laptop replacement for many
people and with iCloud and another year or two of hardware improvements,
that’s going to be true for more and more people. The Kindle Fire is a laptop
replacement for almost no one. It’s a peripheral, not a second computer and
it’s priced accordingly. " What is it that makes the iPad a possible laptop
replacement, but the Fire not? To me, the primary market for people replacing
laptops with a tablet are casual users, many of whom care more about content
and entertainment than producitivity, in which case it would seem the Fire
would be equal to, if not beating, the iPad.

~~~
sliverstorm
_What is it that makes the iPad a possible laptop replacement, but the Fire
not?_

I don't think the iPad is that much more a real laptop replacement than the
Fire. I think people bill it as one to themselves to help justify paying for
an iPad.

~~~
phillmv
It's not so much a real laptop replacement as it is a "computing device while
on the go". Whereas four years ago you'd get a netbook, now… you kind of need
a good reason not to get an iPad/Fire.

It's a subset of computing. I have my main work laptop, which I'm not going to
take camping or up to the cottage. In this space, a tablet is _perfect_ but we
used to settle for a "meh laptop".

~~~
drivebyacct2
I need a good reason to buy a netbook over an iPad? A proper SSH/NX client,
full keyboard, full (and choice of) operating system, input/output ports, all
for less money?

~~~
malyk
Most of the world doesn't need an ssh client, they hardly type much at all,
don't care that they can put uber-linux 2.8.7.rockin-beta.rc18 on it, never
hook anything more than a camera up to it and, well, yes, there is the money
bit.

I'm a developer and the last thing I want when i'm relaxing on the couch, on a
trip, etc. is a laptop that gets hot, has a tiny screen, and has a horrible
form factor for consuming the tubes. The Fire is a credible alternative for
most of that with the possible exception of casual gaming (which i love to
do).

~~~
usaar333
I have to disagree with you on form factor while sitting. I find a laptop
better than or equal (larger screen + supports itself at a wide range of
viewing angles)

~~~
malyk
It's all personal preference. I hate the laptop form factor in general, but
once you add the heat they put off it's a deal breaker for me.

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ja2ke
"The iPad and Kindle Fire are emblematic of their makers. Apple’s primary
business is selling devices for a healthy profit, and they back that up with a
side business of selling digital content for those devices. Amazon’s primary
business is as a retailer, including as a retailer of digital content. They
back that up with a side business of low-cost digital devices that are
optimized for on-the-fly purchasing of anything and everything Amazon sells.
The Kindles are to Amazon what the printed catalog was to Sears a century
ago."

That's the best articulated philosophical breakdown between the two products
and the two companies that I've seen. The two devices look similar at a
glance, but the reasoning behind their numerous differences boil down entirely
to those two different philosophies. Apple wants you to buy an iPad to buy an
iPad -- they get you to do that by pointing out how it has apps and music for
sale. Amazon wants you to buy a Fire to buy a ton of Amazon digital content --
they get you to do that by making the Fire itself cheap.

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sgentle
I'm amazed by the insight in this article. I'm not generally a huge Gruber fan
(nor a hater, I just don't find "Apple released a new x, here's my reaction"
very nourishing). But in this I felt like he really nailed the state of
tablets and why the Fire will do well and the others won't. Really good stuff.

Sadly not analysed is that his central point, taken to its logical conclusion,
gives you an obvious field for new iPad competitors. He's correct - nobody's
going to beat Apple in hardware design. Nobody's going to beat Apple (for a
while anyway) in app market size. What can they beat Apple at? Price and
content.

Price and content means Sony, Nintendo, Disney, any of the big content players
with an untapped market for specific tablets. I don't know if they'll go that
way, but there's every reason to think they'd win out if they did.

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jeffreymcmanus
He's crazy to assume that the Kindle Fire isn't competitive with the iPad, or
that the $199 price point isn't going to at least partially inform the pricing
of the iPad 3.

The days of the $700 tablet are over.

~~~
spiralganglion
As soon as we see people getting work done on the Kindle Fire, I'll grant you
that.

If your work involves a lot of writing, then the iPad isn't an obvious boon
[1]. But if you can do your work more efficiently by treating data and actions
as symbols, the iPad is just overflowing with potential, much of it already
being realized. Musicians, artists, animators, logicians, teachers, doctors,
researchers; the list of professions offered new ways to work is getting
longer and longer. To these people, the iPad can be life-changing.

I don't think the Kindle Fire will change anything. It's just not in Amazon's
DNA to make a product focused on anything other than buying and consuming
content — and there's never been a shortage of ways to buy things.

[1] [http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/09/doable-or-not-
my-e...](http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/09/doable-or-not-my-
experience-with-working-for-ars-on-the-ipad.ars/)

~~~
ASDASDSDA

       Musicians, artists, animators, ???

Any serious professional will have a maxed out task specific equipment.

    
    
        logicians??

Lol I take it that you are not being serious!

teachers, doctors, researchers!

haha Doctors need to enter lots of information and prefer a laptop / proper
keyboard. As far as researchers are concerned any serious researcher will be
either using legacy software or cutting edge software that runs on specialized
machine. And oh if you actually leave your hipster utopia you will realize
that teachers get paid peanuts.

please iPad is a toy and kindle fire is a cheaper and much more affordable
toy.

~~~
spiralganglion
I have made a living as a musician, as a 3d animator, and as a software dev.
My parents are both teachers. I did a lot of research in my University days.

In all of these areas, I can see the potential for multitouch-based
applications that go far, far beyond what we're currently seeing, or have ever
seen on a traditional mouse/keyboard computer. In fact, in my current line of
work as a developer, I'm pursuing these very things.

If you're in a line of work where you're attempting to push the boundaries of
what's possible with a computer, I find it hard to believe that you aren't
fully aware of the realized and _unrealized_ potential of multitouch devices.

Just because the iPad feels like a toy right now, doesn't mean it's limited to
that sort of usage for all people, from now on. I just don't see Amazon
playing any role in pushing user-facing technology forward. Silk is brilliant,
but the Fire doesn't really enable anything that wasn't previously possible,
and I don't see that changing. The iPad did.

~~~
jgmatpdx
I'm pretty sure by "feels like" you mean "is".

Maybe multitouch will make all kinds of exciting differences. Maybe it won't.
As long as you agree that you can't point to any of these exciting results
yet, we're on the same page.

~~~
gnaffle
One example: <http://www.blogher.com/ipad-nearmiracle-my-son-autism>

..and all the stories about grandparents getting iPads. These are all
anectodes of course, and we'll have to wait for the peer-reviewed papers to
come in some years from now.

You can call the iPad a toy all you want. I'm sure some Delta and United
pilots will disagree (hopefully they don't allow games on the iPads they
have).

Lots of people called the first Mac a toy with its silly mouse and GUI when it
was released, yet here we are.

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dascripter
One thing that I have a problem with is the complaints about the Kindle
buttons. As much as I see people try and use the Kindle as a touch screen, I
would not want it to be. I like the button press because I don't have to move
my hand from holding the device. If I had to physically swipe my finger
everytime I wanted to move to the next page I could see that being very
annoying.

The two reasons I really love my Kindle are for the digital distribution and
the form factor. I can no longer read paperback books. I find holding them to
be just unpleasent and not near as enjoyable as the Kindle. And I think a
swipe page turning mechanism is a backward step in how I move through my book.

~~~
jurjenh
Funny that you complain about page turning... for hundreds of years, it has
required an extended physical movement to turn the page.

Amazing the times we live in, that page turning has become an effort that
becomes annoying. Combined with our tendency to be less physical active, we
are heading to a (physically) stationary future...

~~~
pyre
Well, we've removed the 'annoyance' with the original Kindle, why make an
effort to put it back in? What does touch add over the use of buttons (other
than, "Look! We're using a new technology, therefore it's better and you
should buy one!")?

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krishna2
From another daring-fireball article:

Q: How many times does the word “Android” appear on Amazon’s Kindle Fire page?

A: Once, in the following sentence: “Additional email apps are available in
our Amazon Appstore for Android.” It’s a Kindle tablet, not an Android tablet.

~~~
inconditus
On a side note, the Fire will not be able to download from the Google Android
app store.

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mrchess
I think the Kindle light is a great idea. I just scooped one myself. I rarely
used the keyboard on my original Kindle, plus this one is much slimmer and
compact -- awesome. Can't wait for the light to come in.

Personally I think a touchpad Kindle with eink is overkill. The touchpad is
nice, but I don't see why I would ever need it if I'm just casually reading.
That plus I'm a sucker for slimness and the added dimensions killed it for me
:)

~~~
bsuto
Ditto. There've already been multiple posts saying "don't get the base model
instead of the touch" that I don't understand.

Their "touch" screen uses infrared instead of a capacitive or resistive panel,
and I anticipate lots of accidental and frustrating page turns. It looks like
the touch model has no side buttons from the press photos, so tapping on the
screen is necessary instead of applying slightly more pressure to the bezel
you're already holding. This may just be me, but I find that to work just
fine.

The battery life of the base model is half that of the touch model, sure, but
it's still a month. Is that really a problem for anyone? They can't use an
outlet or USB port four hours a month?

Trimming space by getting rid of the keyboard and speeding up page turn
"flashes" are great upgrades to an already great device.

~~~
schleyfox
The one major advantage of the keyboard on the old models (and why I'm glad
they are still being sold) is for students using ebooks in class. For my
literature discussions we often have to reference specific sections so the
keyboard, while crap, allows you to quickly search out a key phrase in the
section under discussion. Page number mappings are still not all that
available and often time off of weird editions that aren't even close to
standard real paperback editions.

------
heresy
Not available outside of the US (except for the crippled non-touch version).

Poor, poor strategy.

That's essentially gifting the market to iOS/Android.

I sure as hell won't wait until Amazon deigns to offer one outside.

~~~
rodh257
I don't think this is completely Amazons fault. The device is heavily centered
around Amazon Prime and the various streaming content services they have. Most
of these services are U.S. only thanks to requirements of the publishers. I'm
sure Amazon would love to ship it worldwide, but it wouldn't be nearly as
useful without the cloud services behind it.

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ctdonath
"You can get a Kindle Fire and a new top-of-the-line e-ink Kindle Touch for
less than the price of an iPad. It’s a very different take."

But few will want to carry both. This is the one problem with non-general-
purpose tablets. Various discussions I've seen today imply, by intent or by
chance, getting more than one tablet. To succeed in the long run, users must
see the device as My One Tablet - which will include anywhere/anytime Internet
connectivity (note the absence of a Fire 3G).

~~~
redthrowaway
I currently carry around an MBP and a kindle. I could see (in some
hypothetical, far-flung future where touchscreen keyboards weren't utter crap)
dropping the laptop for a tablet, but I could _never_ see dropping eInk for
anything suitable for a general-purpose tablet. Barring some eInk-led hybrid,
I simply can't see using a general-purpose tablet as a reading device. The
kindle is simply far too good. I've been reading ebooks on my laptop for
years, and I've read more books in the six months since I've gotten my kindle
than I had in the 6 years prior. It's just that good.

The kindle isn't a tablet. It's your library in your pocket. Don't confuse
form with function.

~~~
cageface
I currently have a MBP and an iPad but I really dislike reading on the iPad
and I think it's quite likely my next round of devices will be a MB Air and
e-ink Kindle. Ironically the new MB Air is so light and portable it undercuts
most of the value of the iPad for me but I'd still like a comfortable reading
device, preferably one I wouldn't be devastated to lose at the beach.

------
doron
Strange that he does not mention Android at all, maybe its his disdain to the
platform, but its a strong advantage .

I bet software in the Amazon app store will work right out of the gate, that's
a ready made eco system in a new device

The fire will benefit from the Android development community. this is a great
win. And that Gruber, is what it means that the platform is open. Everybody
benefits, and the platform is agile enough to afford different business models

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kloncks
Any idea on details around this:

 _Over 100,000 movies and TV shows, including thousands of new releases and
your favorite TV shows, are available to stream or download, purchase or rent
- all just one tap away. Amazon Prime members enjoy unlimited, commercial-free
streaming of over 10,000 popular movies and TV shows._

As a Netflix user, I know first-hand that quantity doesn't necessarily mean
quality. Any idea on what this list actually contains?

~~~
smackfu
For the free options, the movie selection is decent, and the TV selection is
pretty awful. Lots of back catalog stuff, like 270 episodes of Cheers, but
only a few series from recent years.

But OTOH, I paid for Prime when it didn't have any streaming, and thought it
was worth it, so I don't have high expectations.

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sigzero
I know it's subjective but I think they blew it on the size.

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zyb09
This is what I like to do on daringfireball posts:
<http://i.minus.com/iXy1JUUd4GGMz.jpg> \- and that's pretty much my opinion
about them.

~~~
icebraining
You do know that he (not them) called Daring Fireball a "Mac column"? What did
you expect him to write about, oranges?

Not to mention that this post is a pretty bad example, since writing about a
new tablet without talking about the one with the huge slice of the market
would would be very strange.

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wazoox
Hell must be freezing over, Gruber isn't gratuitously bashing Apple's
competitor? It's refreshing to read a new, insightful analysis of his for the
first time in a while.

