
Ask HN:  Please destroy my startup idea so I don't waste time on it - rcavezza
Problem:<p>1.)  Hard for Content Newsletters to Find advertisers and sponsors.<p>2.)  Very difficult for startups who want to advertise in newsletters to find similar newsletters to advertise in.  (no central location - have to find advertise area on website for each newsletter or email publisher directly for smaller newsletters)<p>This isn't just something that's new for newsletters.  I believe this was inherited from direct mail from magazines and publishers.  I remember pursuing a startup idea in high school, looking for ways to reach out to highly targeted magazines, and being pointed to a directory in the library.  And even the library didn't have that directory.<p>My Solution:  BuySellAds.com type of website for content newsletter publishers.<p>My Minimal Test:<p>Advermin.com - Performable Landing page to see if there's interest in this.  Landing page hooks up to mailchimp.  For first few weeks, I'll send advertising opportunities from friends who own content newsletters - see if there's interest and if we can pick up steam.<p>Finding if publishers are interested by using howtosubscribe.com to find newsletter publishers.<p>My Concerns: 
(1) Too small of a market.  Some of the data from EasyUnsubscriber.com shows me that most email newsletters are from newsletters that are selling a product or service or are extremely interested in driving traffic to their blog.<p>(2) The larger newsletters (highest value customers)  probably don't need someone to find opportunities because they're popular enough to attract advertisers directly.<p>Target Newsletters include content newsletters like HackerNewsletter and Startup Digest.<p>Final Plea:  Please poke holes in this.  Tear me apart.  Spit on my ideas.  I want to save time and focus full attention on easyunsubscriber.com if this idea isn't worth pursuing.  All input appreciated.
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toddynho
(disclosure: I founded BuySellAds.com)

I think it's a great idea, actually. At BSA we've been talking about
newsletter ads for a while, but haven't been able to commit to executing on it
properly. We went as far as acquiring the NewsletterAds.com domain, but have
since stopped there. One of the biggest hurdles with selling ads in
newsletters is getting enough valuable inventory. Even with our existing
publishers (and with 150-200 new sites submitted every day) we would struggle
to have enough _meaningful_ inventory to put together to sell. That being
said, I had _many_ people tell me the same thing before I started BSA - that I
would never be able to get enough inventory together to make it work.

The other piece of advice I can give you is that operating at 25% commissions
(like BSA does) is definitely a bootstrapping path. If you can sell ads in
newsletters that they aren't already selling, then it's something I would do
at a 35-40% level. Maybe that sounds crazy, but if you're able to make sales
that are normally not made you can charge whatever you want.

So, I'd say go for it, hustle, and make it happen if you are passionate about
it.

~~~
bobx11
I'm in an office adjacent to you - nice job on BSA. ;)

~~~
toddynho
nice! let's grab a coffee or beer or something one day, I'd love to hear more
about what you are doing with <http://datatrailer.com/>. shoot me an email
(todd@buysellads.com) or just swing by and knock on the BSA door.

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nedwin
Advertising sales is really hard. You can create a marketplace and get
connected to a bunch of newsletter publishers but then you need to convince a
whole heap of people to give you money.

Publishers are also (usually) particular about what kind of advertising they
run in their emails. They want to make sure that it's "on brand" because if
it's not then people might stop opening or reading their emails.

It's the classic problem of the 2 sided marketplace but the easiest way to
start out here (IMHO) would be to find a newsletter or two and go out there
selling their inventory. When you're oversubscribed go and find another
relevant newsletter and sell their inventory. Wash, rinse and repeat.

~~~
rcavezza
Thanks for the comment nedwin.

If nothing else, I'd like to at least make it easier for startups and small
companies to have somewhere to find what these requirements are. Maybe this
ends with howtosubscribe.com being a labor of love to help organize the net's
plethora of newsletters.

If your proposal of selling one or two and then expanding from there. This
idea would probably be suited better for someone with history of selling
newsletter ads. For me, it'd be a problem of being the "wrong person to
execute". Something I hear Chris Dixon & PG mention a lot.

~~~
robryan
I guess that in the early stages of your idea your in a way going to have to
be selling the inventories anyway, not going to be easy to build both sides of
the market without some legwork on your part. One of the advantages to being
small I guess is you can actually go above and beyond to broker deals rather
than only having time to really be doing it passively through a webapp.

~~~
rcavezza
Great point. It'll be a solid way for me to gain some domain expertise at the
same time.

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asanwal
We run a niche, high-value newsletter and so from experience, I think there is
a market for this.

To validate, I'd find a newsletter(s) you think you can sell an ad(s) in and
talk to the newsletter creator and say "If I can get you a sponsored ad for
$x, would you (1) want it and (2) give me a Y% cut?"

If you get positive response from them, then try like mad to sell the ads you
promised.

I'm not sure the size of the market but given how much Bob Pittman, Lerer
Media and the guy at HARO like email newsletters, there is prob something
here. We think so.

Also, IMO, I don't think startups is a great demographic from a monetization
perspective unless you can slice it more finely, i.e., venture-backed startups
or startups who are hiring.

~~~
rcavezza
Great points. From lean startups & cust dev principles, I think you should
start charging from day one.

Well, the margins would come from venture backed startups looking for high
growth.

I am also a huge fan of lean, so personally, I'd also like to hook up very
small newsletters (less than 5,000 subscribers) with bootstrapped startups. I
also think these newsletters would be easier to start with - since many aren't
monetized yet.

I already have one newsletter signed up for this. This idea came from when I
pitched a different startup to them and they thought I was talking about this
idea. They said "if you do this, I'll be your biggest advocate". So that's why
I'm considering the idea.

~~~
asanwal
Glad to hear of market validation you've done.

I'd caution against small newsletters which may have low-value audiences. The
"CPM" you'll get will be low and so $20 CPM on a 5k newsletter is $100 and if
$80 goes to newsletter, that gives you $20. (And $20 CPM may be very
aggressive)

You have to find and get an absolute cr^pload of those newsletters on board to
make any amount of real cashish.

And bootstrapped startups as advertisers strikes me as a terrible segment as
they have little to no money and may often be PITAs.

~~~
asanwal
Addressing your comment below as I couldn't find a reply on your comment.

Why go into a business with terrible margins from the start? Usually
successful biz have great margins to start and then those get eroded with
competition, technology, etc?

In general, it also seems easier to go from big to small vs the other way. If
I'm a large newsletter owner, I want to know you've worked with folks like me.
I don't care that you've done work for 100 newsletters of 5k people.

Waiting on bootstrapped startups to get funding and hoping they'll continue
with you is dependent on lots of variables you have no control over. Business
is already uncertain and this is just compounding that uncertainty.

I'm all for validating the market but do it in a lucrative area in my view
where there is a real ROI on your effort.

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jim_shook
Personally, I think you are thinking too small. IMO there is a larger
opportunity for a marketplace to buy and sell promotion for the long-tail of
the web (niche content providers and small startups selling to a niche
audience) across many mediums including newsletters but also company blogs,
social media presences, forums, etc. Buysellads.com does it well, but I think
there is room for another player who can execute in slightly different ways.

I actually have been thinking about this idea for a while and would love to
chat more about it. I've been working on a travel industry startup for 2 years
that has had a difficult time finding great/targeted advertising
opportunities.

~~~
idoh
It's a really hard problem. I worked at a company that tried to create
vertical ad networks that would allow advertisers to tap a large pool of
related content. A lot of pieces have to come together for it all to work -
finance, technical, and high-touch things like having a direct sales team and
managing publishers (recruiting them, getting your tags up, etc).

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wolfrom
Besides not being a subject matter expert, I don't have any evidence to
support this assertion:

It feels like you're looking to get involved in an industry that's being
disrupted (unless e-mail newsletters are going to continue in their current
form, which I don't believe), but that your idea isn't causing this
disruption. I feel like there's a pivot somewhere here, after some more time
on it.

So in essence, I'm giving you the opposite of what you want; I think if you
start looking into this further, you may hit upon the true solution. At least
it sounded to me like you had the knowledge and interest to make it happen.

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jonkelly
I actually like the idea a bit. Chicken and egg problem for ad networks is
difficult, but not insurmountable. I can tell you that there are many big
newsletters out there that are under-monetized. It' not about spamming,
either, it's about providing a quality offer that makes sense for the
audience. Feel free to reach out to me if you pursue this (you can find me
through my profile).

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mattcurry
You may want to checkout <http://www.heyamigo.net> and
<http://www.barenakedapp.com/category/amigo/>

HeyAmigo sounds like exactly what you are talking about. It was built by
Carsonified a few years ago and sold (I think). The Bare Naked App blog was a
chronicle of them building it.

~~~
rcavezza
Thanks for the link. I just visited and toyed around. I hate to be "that guy",
but I didn't really love it. Does anyone here use Hey Amigo? What do you
think? Good results?

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MatthewDP
I have a small but growing daily stock-related newsletter (3500 subscribers in
45 days). So far, I really have no methods of monetizing it and the monthly
sendgrid bill doesn't pay itself. If that service existed, I'd give it a try.

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noonespecial
Its a niche market. You have specifics. Sorry, I kind of like your idea. After
a zillion "its like teh facebook of x" or "its kind of a social-ad-media-
blogging deal", that's really refreshing.

I'm not going to be able to shoot down an idea this specific, Content
Newsletters are. Find a few. If they think its a good idea, see if they'll pay
you something, or even trial some stuff for you. You should be able to quickly
determine if there's anything here worth pursuing.

------
jasonlynes
who the hell signs up for newsletters? interesting how your other business was
created because newsletters are lame.

these problems don't seem like ones normal people deal with. they're just
problems for people trying to add something to their domain squatting
businesses. spam my inbox with lame content, and then spam the newsletter with
ads? ugh.

how about, people want really good content through email (huge assumption),
but great content publishers aren't publishing content due to low advertiser
involvement. the service could hook writers up with relevant advertisers who
could add something to the conversation, giving the user something other than
a text ad or banners. if it's a small market, the service could be very
specialized and deal with people/advertisers individually.

but honestly, there's probably more money in viagra ads than there is in email
newsletters.

~~~
eli
Many people sign up for email newsletters -- in fact lots of people spend
their whole day in Outlook or on their Blackberry, so it's far more convenient
than configuring an RSS reader. More people send/receive email in a given day
than run a Google search or check Facebook.

Ads in an email newsletter that you intentionally signed up for is no more
"spam" than ads on a website you routinely visit is "spam."

~~~
rcavezza
I'd also like to add that well targeted magazine ads can even ad value. Who is
to see this can't translate to email newsletters?

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firebones
It'd be interesting to add an A/B testing twist to this--provide value-add to
advertisers and newsletter operators by providing them visibility into click-
throughs, and then spiffs to the newsletters for going with the better path.
But you'd need volume to do this.

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ozziegooen
I don't read newsletters.

While some do, their use is dying and being replaced with new forms of social
media. Even if your business becomes huge, it's going to be facing a market
that's declining. That doesn't seem like fun.

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jonah
I know it's not exactly what you're looking at, but it brought The Deck[1] to
mind. Carefully curated high-quality advertising on select sites.

[1] <http://decknetwork.net/>

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astrofinch
Can't remember where but I saw a service that described itself as "buysellads
for e-newsletters" the other day.

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adrianbye
its a massive market. the problem is the targeting. how do you target ads
appropriately? everyone wants the high CPM ads, but nobody knows how they will
perform. and you have to do a separate mailing each time

~~~
rcavezza
I don't think I agree about massive market. There's a large # of newsletter
publishers that don't advertise. Thing of every SaaS newsletter promoting
their own sales, Best Buy and their newsletters, Groupon doesn't directly
advertise (this distinction is somewhat complicated).

Selling ads appropriately is also extremely difficult. Click-thru rates is
another issue, but I could probably overcome this issue with unsubscribe rates
data from easyunsubscriber after it finds P/M fit.

I don't think a lot of this stuff is public unless SendGrid/MailChimp/et al
has open APIs which I doubt. I think publishers often fudge this data and if
their open rates are bad, they inflate the numbers of don't mention them. Very
difficult to monitor esp. since the data isn't open.

Do you advertise in newsletters or publish one? I'd love to hear more of your
experiences.

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petervandijck
Pivot to "appsumo + groupon for email newsletters" :)

