
All plastic waste could be recycled into new plastic: researchers - rahuldottech
https://www.chalmers.se/en/departments/see/news/Pages/All-plastic-waste-could-be-recycled-into-new-high-quality-plastic.aspx
======
uxamanda
Glad to see more innovation in plastic recycling. Reminds me of this interview
about making medical devices from recycled plastic in Gaza[0]:

“Let’s talk about how your medical devices are printed on the ground in Gaza.
3D printers use plastic to create objects. Where do you get the plastic?

It’s recycled ABS plastic. Gaza actually has a 100 percent recycle rate
because no plastic is allowed in.

Really?

Yeah, almost everybody’s plumbing in Gaza is made out of recycled plastic.
It’s really quite wild. For the printers, we use recycled ABS and we mix in as
much virgin plastic as we can get because you always need some virgin plastic
— there’s no such thing as 100 percent recycled plastic — but sometimes it’s
not very much.

Where do you get the ABS from? I’m imagining a bunch of plastic bottles.

You’re halfway there. Plastic bottles are made out of a material called PET.
We don’t use PET; we use ABS, which is the plastic that’s in Lego pieces. It’s
also in chairs and tables, picnic tables, shit like that. What happens is: you
take those plastic parts, you grind them down, you wash them and dry them.
Then you melt them and extrude them into spools of “filament,” which is what
3D printers use to make things...“

Article goes on to explain some of the machinery people are using.

[0] from [https://logicmag.io/bodies/tarek-loubani-on-3d-printing-
in-g...](https://logicmag.io/bodies/tarek-loubani-on-3d-printing-in-gaza/)

------
mattmaroon
" The fact that plastics do not break down, and therefore accumulate in our
ecosystems, is one of our major environmental problems."

Not really. Landfills are safe and clean and plentiful. Ocean plastic is a
problem, but comes almost entirely from intentional dumping. Litter is a
problem, but it seems silly to assume that someone who cannot be bothered to
put plastic in a trash can will put it in a recycle bin.

The real issue is the carbon footprint of making/transporting items, plastic
or otherwise. I'd like to see how this compares in that regard. If this uses
more energy than just making new plastics it will probably exacerbate a real
problem (global warming) in order to help with a fake problem (landfills)
which, unfortunately, is pretty consistent with modern environmentalism.

~~~
ethagnawl
> Landfills are safe and clean

I'm admittedly no expert, but I'm _pretty damn certain_ this is not the case.
(Do you know what leachate is?) I'm happy to be proven wrong by references to
legitimate research backing up this claim, though.

~~~
mattmaroon
The recycling industry relies on outdated ideas like that. Leachate was once a
huge problem, but it was solved decades ago. Modern landfills are constructed
with layers of barriers and collection tubing.

Here's a cool diagram from the EPA:

[https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-09/landfill_...](https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-09/landfill_diagram.jpg)

Do you have "references to legitimate research" stating that modern landfills
are unsafe or is that just your default belief?

~~~
hanniabu
Only one layer of synthetic liner, I think that says enough. All it takes is a
single tear that could have even happened with installation, or maybe the sand
layers aren't as thick as what's recommended and as garbage is put on top it
digs into the sand and rips the synthetic layer.

How much extensive real world testing has been done with this synthetic
layers? Is it meant to sit for decades bathing in a chemical soup? Or it is
assumed that it'd only get wet? My guess is that they didn't use real world
tests where people are throwing out chemicals that shouldn't be put in the
garbage.

~~~
EpicEng
It continually amazes me that people like you think they have found a
legitimate problem after 30 seconds of thought which the experts never
imagined. I imagine at least one follow up which includes a reference to
'appeal to authority' yada yada yada will appear.

~~~
Teever
The lead issue in the water infrastructure in Flint Michigan tells me
everything I need to know about the safety of these systems.

A human can design a perfect system and then someone else can come along and
whether due to malfeasance or greed fuck that perfect system up.

No system is perfect for that very reason.

The solution is to generate less waste. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle -- in that
order.

There won't be a problem if there isn't a problem to take care of.

~~~
EpicEng
>The solution is to generate less waste. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle -- in that
order.

>There won't be a problem if there isn't a problem to take care of.

Sure, and in fantasy land I'm sure there's just a switch you can flip to make
that happen. Back in reality where you can't just eliminate all these sources
of waste in a day, don't you think it's worth looking for practical solutions
that we can implement in the short term?

Besides, the only thing I responded to was an internet know-it-all supposing
that scientists and engineers hadn't considered a tear or the fact that people
may throw away things they're not suppose to.

------
08-15
The press release is a lie.

Looking at the diagram at the top, and reading just the abstract of the linked
study, it's clear that the whole idea is to degrade plastic waste (through
pyrolysis and/or oxidation) and use the degradation products in existing
petrochemical plants. Unfortunately, plastics don't degrade only to valuable,
reusable chemicals.

The study admits the lie: 100% recycling of plastics isn't expected, and they
only get to "100% recovery of carbon" by first electrifying the plant and then
"sequestering" the CO2 that forms anyway. Of course, 100% recovery of carbon
in this meaningless sense can already be achieved by landfilling the plastics.

~~~
gus_massa
I agree, the 100% part is an exaggeration. They say that some part of the
plastic will go to CO2 and it can be later transformed to plastic, but this
transformation needs a lot of energy and is expensive. They propose an
alternative o store the CO2 in a safe place, that is also expensive.

With this type of creative accounting, you can have a gasoline truck with zero
CO2 emissions, because you collect somehow the CO2 in a giant tank and then
transform it back to fuel (with a big cost of money and energy).

------
tonyedgecombe
Now all we need to do is make the plastic manufacturers pay the cost.

~~~
mythrwy
I think maybe you mean plastic consumers.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
It’s the same thing really, manufacturers would pass on the cost but as there
are less of them it’s easier to administer.

------
tehjoker
[https://theintercept.com/2019/10/18/coca-cola-recycling-
plas...](https://theintercept.com/2019/10/18/coca-cola-recycling-plastics-
pollution/)

"Leaked Audio Reveals How Coca-Cola Undermines Plastic Recycling Efforts"

Unfortunately technical solutions don't solve the social problems. :(

------
uhhyeahdude
A link to the study:

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221499371...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214993719300697)

~~~
gonzo41
I watched a really good TED talk on recycling plastics. The biggest issue they
faced was that separating like plastic was the hard thing, as they all feel
like plastic, all look like plastic and weigh pretty much the same for the
volume. The challenge in processing recyclable stock was separating types.

You can melt it all down, but there are lots of chlorides and other elements
bound onto polymer chains to elicit different properties in the original
plastics, In the video I watched these seemed like the biggest impediment to
their approach because they wanted to consolidate stock of like materials.
They opted for a optical/mechanical sorting approach which I thought was
pretty impressive at the time.

The article does suggest that types need to be segregated to different
pathways so it may be an issue.

The pathways the paper suggest seem practical. It'll be interesting to see
which countries are willing to take this on. It's a very heady industry. And
the intent is a carbon neutral outcome.

I wonder if we will just trade the CO2 of making plastic for the shipping cost
of plastics from point A to B.

~~~
spockz
Even if it trades all the CO2 produced by production to shipping that is a net
win. It will mean less plastic in the environment. Over time we can make the
shipping more efficient which will reduce CO2 and other costs further.

Or maybe we just need biodegradable plastics.

~~~
panpanna
Getting rid of plastics is already a huge cost for cities.

Right now, many large cities burn their platics which also generates co2.

~~~
Tharkun
They also burn oil and gas. Burning plastic waste for energy isn't too bad in
the grand scheme of things. Sure, not having pumped up the oil and not having
turned it into plastic would have been best. And recycling that plastic into
something useful would have been better. But burning it as fuel is still
pretty good.

------
RenRav
Is this for thermoplastics? Or does it include thermosetting plastic and
rubbers?

It would be interesting if they could actually recycle car tires, I believe
what currently happens is burning or shredding into mulch.

~~~
hanniabu
Pretty upsetting that it's used to mulch. We're intentionally putting and
think it's a great idea at the same time, go figure.

~~~
zdragnar
Why is it upsetting? Lots of playgrounds around here, especially at schools,
have moved entirely to shredded rubber instead of wood mulch, almost entirely
due to safety concerns.

I don't see the concern over safety, given all the rough housing I did as a
kid at just such a playground, but if it brings peace of mind, I don't see why
it would be upsetting to anyone.

~~~
ip26
I once visited a shredded rubber playground at 10,000' on a midsummer day. The
sun was intense, and as a result the offgassing from the tire chips was so
dramatic you could literally see a layer of gasses hanging over the mulch.
(They were colorless, but your eye could pick up on the disturbance & shifts
in the light) It reeked.

~~~
mrob
I think it's more likely you were seeing refraction caused by the change in
density of the layer of hot air: "heat haze". Any dark colored material would
have the same air-heating effect.

~~~
ip26
Maybe, but I've never seen "heat haze" curl & wisp, and it doesn't reek of
tires & chemicals.

------
vfc1
I wonder how much pollution will this new process of recycling plastic bring.
There is so much unnecessary plastic going around in our society, let's start
there first.

On my local supermarket, to buy 4 peaches they come in a plastic container
fully covered with plastic sheet, I'm not kidding.

~~~
Kiro
No idea about those peaches specifically but wrapping vegetables in plastic
generally reduces the environmental impact since it prevents them from
spoiling.

~~~
khendron
It may reduce the environmental impact by preventing spoiling, but at the same
time it increases the environmental impact because now the vegetable can (and
are) shipped across vast distances.

Maybe we should be rethinking our entire food infrastructure and concentrate
on delivering food to local markets, not markets 1000s of miles away.

~~~
lotsofpulp
Good luck telling people they can’t eat avocados because they don’t live close
to where they grow.

~~~
martin_a
How did people live without Avocados before they became a thing about like
five years ago?

~~~
phonethrowaway
Where are you from that you think avocados "became a thing" recently?

~~~
martin_a
It feels like in Germany they are somewhat "hip" only in the last 5 years or
so. Barely heard anybody talking or eating some before, but nowadays they are
quite popular.

------
pvaldes
And this is in part behind the renewed interest for removing plastic in the
oceans, probably. Is a plastic mine waiting for miners

~~~
goalieca
The plastic is not sufficiently concentrated. Would have to scrape the whole
ocean and at various depths.

~~~
joshspankit
The garbage gyres are quite concentrated.

~~~
panpanna
Also, they are becoming a danger for humans and fishes. At some point we need
to pay that cost.

Maybe this particular technology is not fully applicable in oceans, but at
least it's a start.

~~~
joshspankit
Sorry, my point is that when harvesting plastic from the ocean, the garbage
gyres become a rich “mine” as they are very concentrated

~~~
gus_massa
They are not very concentrated. From
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch)

> _The plastic concentration is estimated to be up to 100 kilograms per square
> kilometer in the center,_ [...]

That is .1g/m^2 (0.3moz/ft^2 [1]). The weight of the plastic cap of a bottle
is approximately 2.4g (85moz). So you need to sweep an area of 24m^2 (260ft^2)
to recover the equivalent of a plastic cap. That's approximately 18 plastic
caps in the area of a basketball court.

[1] 0.3 milliounces per square foot, I don't know the best unit to show this.

~~~
joshspankit
As I was doing research in response (thank you for the citation), I realized I
stated an incorrect fact that the gyres are very concentrated, but still stand
by the statement that they would be excellent “mines” for plastic. Part of
what makes the volume so hard to determine is the current which carries all
the garbage in a circle. At a certain stage it would be worthwhile to simply
“park” something in the current and have the plastic come to you. Be it a boat
or something like an oil rig, there’s very little “sweeping” required in order
to collect the plastic.

~~~
gus_massa
It's amazing how it is unrelated to the level of concentration that is seen in
the photos that illustrate the press articles
[https://www.google.com/search?q=Great+Pacific+garbage+patch&...](https://www.google.com/search?q=Great+Pacific+garbage+patch&tbm=isch)
I tried to find the source of the first one, I guess it's from a bay or some
place that concentrate garbage. There are some kind of mountains or islands on
the left ...

Probably it is more effective to clean the stream of a few rivers that carry
most of the plastics to the sea. The concentration in higher and it's easier
to setup, repair and operate the nets.

------
cpach
As a former resident of Gothenburg, I’m glad to see Chalmers on the front page
:)

------
ksaj
The thing that peeves me is that at least where I live they won't let us
recycle black plastic. They say it is because you can't use black plastic to
make any other kind of plastic.

So... they would rather make new black plastic than simply separate the
discarded black plastic into recycled material for new black plastic things.
An ever increasing supply of new discarded black plastic is at hand. And we do
use a lot of black plastic.

This to me, suggests there is a very strong plastic lobby, because otherwise
it's just nonsensical.

------
krm01
What would be a good strategy to start small with an alternative to plastic.
Without bumping into the trillion dollar industry head on and losing?

~~~
klingonopera
In Germany, for beverages, we have a system where you pay a deposit for a
plastic or glass bottle and receive it back when you return the empty
bottle[0][1].

That creates monetary incentive to collect those bottles and they thus hardly
contribute to litter. There are single- and multi-use bottles in circulation.

I find it to be a very successful system and believe that it could be expanded
to _all_ packaging. I'm somewhat perplexed that even in Germany this idea
isn't talked about more often (or at all).

[0]:
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfandsystem](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfandsystem)

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_vending_machine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_vending_machine)

EDIT: The systems are called " _container-deposit legislations_ ":
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container-
deposit_legislation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container-
deposit_legislation)

------
matthewhartmans
Adidas is doing some pretty good work recycling plastic.
[https://youtu.be/pJBRqespiOA](https://youtu.be/pJBRqespiOA)

------
konschubert
I find myself much less worried about plastic waste than about climate change.

Yet I observe on Twitter and other social media that these problems are
considered equally important, sometimes people even treat them as equivalent.

Am I missing something?

~~~
StevePerkins
All of these worries churn, like any other fashion. Through a cycle of short
attention span, and craving for novelty.

5-10 years ago in the grocery store line, myself and half the people in front
of me were bringing our own reusable grocery bags. I feel guilty acknowledging
this, but we all just seemed to... stop. Because it was a mild hassle, and the
novelty wore off. I can't remember the last time I've seen someone with with
their own bags, and I imagine that younger store clerks would be confused by
them.

We're still concerned about plastic (that worry comes and goes like a
pendulum). We just got bored and lost our attention span for one of the most
direct things we can do to reduce plastic.

10-15 years ago, myself and most of my political peers were more upset about
Guantanamo Bay than plastic or climate change. Nothing ever changed there, but
I can't recall the last time I've heard it mentioned. The average anti-war
protestor of the post-9/11 years probably understands little to nothing about
U.S. action in Syria over the past decade.

~~~
IceSentry
Maybe it's the area where you live, but where I live it would be weird to not
have reusable bags with you. Pretty much everyone has them.

I live close to montreal and we have a lot of environmentally conscious people
here.

~~~
SECProto
I agree - I've lived all over eastern Canada, and most people everywhere use
reusable bags. The only people I've observed who consistently don't are those
in for a single bag/a few items

------
spodek
We can all help stop this. Everyone can reduce their contribution. I cut out
nearly all packaged food, which reduced my garbage to where I empty it less
than once a year (I last emptied my trash in September 2018)
[http://joshuaspodek.com/avoiding-food-
packaging-2](http://joshuaspodek.com/avoiding-food-packaging-2). I was
pleasantly surprised that doing so cost less, reduced food preparation time,
increased diversity of food, and led to more social interaction with friends
and farmers. It's more accessible for people in food deserts and without time.
For the record, it took a couple years of practice to go from weekly garbage
to monthly to yearly.

That's just one example. Everyone can reduce some. The more you start, instead
of just accepting and throwing your hands up, the easier each next step.

The producers will see the trend and stop buying plastic.

Of course there are other ways to act: legislation, creating healthier
alternatives.

The point is: everyone can act starting here and now and they will find joy in
it. It may take time, but acting on one's values is rewarding.

~~~
afarrell
I poked around on your blog for a bit, but couldn’t find any practical
suggestions. How can a city-dweller with an oven, chest freezer, instant pot,
and fridge acquire meal without packaging and without 8 hours of
administrative overhead per week?

~~~
megaremote
Get rid of your car for starters. Shop at markets where they don't cover
anything in plastic. Adjust what you eat around avoiding buying plastic, as
much as you can.

~~~
Ancalagon
This is so far out of what I, a west-coast american, can actually accomplish
its kind of funny. I know you are being serious and those are all great
suggestions that I would love to implement, but to address them: things are so
spread out here I literally can't get to work/a grocery store without a car,
there's a single farmers market, which runs for 4 hours every Sunday once a
week and doesnt cover everything in plastic. Its literally unobtainable for
someone living here. Maybe directly inside the city its possible to go carless
and shop only at farmers markets, but being downtown would be way too
expensive.

