
Cradle of Cantonese cuisine welcomes "robot restaurant complex" - rmason
https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1005845/
======
julianlam
The Chinese really have efficiency down to an art form. The last time I was in
HK, I had breakfast at Dai Ga Lok. I put in my order and by the time I ambled
over to the next counter, my noodle soup and toast was already ready. It blew
my mind just how fast they managed to put it out... and this was with an all-
human staff!

It was like that scene in The Founder where Ray Kroc eats at McDonalds the
first time and he doesn't understand how he could possibly get his burger
ready so quickly.

~~~
onetimemanytime
>> _my noodle soup and toast was already ready._

This is easy, just a matter of plating. They probably have a very limited menu
(serves 95% just fine) and the rest if just perfecting the system little by
little

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The little chengdu xiaochis I went to in Beijing often had my food up before I
was done paying, I would hear the propane stove hose on just shortly after I
said my order....

~~~
onetimemanytime
at the risk of sounding like an idiot: are Chinese /HK workers more attentive
to their job? We've seen the McDonalds and other fast food workers here...not
that they get paid to work faster, let's be honest.

Burgers and sandwiches should always be hot and ready to pack especially
during peak times. Fries too. Others would replenish them as needed. Soda is
what it is, so it should a matter of seconds if everyone worked like their
livelihood depended on it. But they system is what it is: teenagers making
believe they are working and employers making believe they are paying them. In
the end, waiting just a few minutes is fast enough for the customer anyway, so
no incentive to change the system.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
At least in mainland China, labor costs are lower, so they have more workers.
The chengdu xiaochi wouldn’t be so responsive if there wasn’t so much extra
capacity (both in terms of workers and a lack of customers because of lots of
competition).

I worked at McDonald’s as a teenager and we really did work. It was easy to
get ahead of the game when things weren’t that busy, but often resources were
simply over subscribed (not enough workers, too many customers, often both).

------
fxtentacle
Am I the only one to find this level of competition scary for western
countries?

I always thought that robots and automation would be our hope to compete with
the ultra-cheap labor in China. Like Apple moving production back to the US
and making it profitable with a lot of automation. But if China now becomes a
leader at robotics in addition to remaining competitive at manufacturing, then
how are we going to compete?

~~~
catalogia
> _if China now becomes a leader at robotics_

How was this ever not going to be the case? Robotics will go wherever the
manufacturing is. Where else would roboticists get practical real world
experience, other than in factories? Obviously there's plenty of robotic
manufacturing in America still, but there's clearly no shortage of opportunity
in it for China either.

The assumption that America would have the best robotics which would force
manufacturing to come back to America seems rooted in little more than wishful
thinking.

~~~
keenmaster
I don’t think people would have expected Boston Dynamics to emerge out of the
U.S. as opposed to Japan, but they did, and it’s telling that they emerged out
of a subregion with top rate American educational institutions. Ignore that
they were bought out by SoftBank because I think America will consistently
churn out top robotics and automation companies in the coming years. All it
takes is for there to be a profit signal. Until a field has that profit
signal, Americans outside of academia pretty much ignore it.

~~~
catalogia
Boston Dynamics doesn't seem like the sort of robotics that's particularly
relevant to manufacturing. They've got impressive showy robots but don't know
who to sell them to; the military seems ambivalent and now Boston Dynamics is
trying to sell them as toys to rich people instead. It remains to be seen if
they'll find a viable market like that.

Industrial robotics on the other hand is a mature field, and much (most?) of
it has been outside the US from the beginning. Yaskawa and FANUC in Japan. ABB
in Switzerland. Siemens in Germany. How many factories have been automated by
these companies? How many have been automated by Boston Dynamics?

~~~
keenmaster
I think the more important AI becomes in guiding robotic hardware, the more
America will gain a competitive advantage in manufacturing. At the very least
America would be able to eat Germany’s lunch. I also believe that America will
ultimately “win” the AI race against Asian countries, but many here may
disagree with that.

~~~
catalogia
It's not clear to me that "AI guided robotics" have much industrial utility.
Where those sort of systems might excel is in finding solutions to novel
problems. But mass production is all about avoiding the introduction of novel
problems in the first place; that's been the premise of mass manufacturing
since the 19th century. Parts are made to a spec and interchange with each
other, allowing machines without intelligence to make and assemble them.

Which is not to say advanced tech like computer vision or whatnot don't have
industrial applications; it definitely does. Industrial robots using computer
vision are already common today, used for things like quality control (e.g.
inspecting each individual potato chip on a conveyor belt.) I suspect that to
the extent other AI systems might plausibly be relevant to industrial-scale
production, industrial robotics companies have been investing. I sincerely
doubt Boston Dynamics is going to leapfrog Siemens in any foreseeable future.

------
_visgean
It is interesting though I am not sure if it makes sense at all. Is a
restaurant sector a significant vector for covid 19? I have not heard about
people getting infected from food deliveries.

Health agencies showing that food preparation ain't a vector:

\- [https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/news/coronavirus-no-
evidence-f...](https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/news/coronavirus-no-evidence-
food-source-or-transmission-route)

\- [https://www.fda.gov/food/food-safety-during-
emergencies/food...](https://www.fda.gov/food/food-safety-during-
emergencies/food-safety-and-coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19) (section A
worker in my food processing facility/farm has tested positive for COVID-19.)

~~~
maccard
Have you been in a working kitchen? I've only been in one (a couple of times)
and it was the smallest, hottest, least ventilated place I've ever been. While
it might not be a transmission vector for customers, it's _definiely_ a high
risk enviroent for the staff. Particularly if they interact with wait staff
who interact with customers.

~~~
_visgean
Yes I agree that it is a risk for for the staff, however it does not seem to
be a risk for customers, which is what this concept would reduce.

~~~
boomboomsubban
If the staff is at risk, the customers risk depends on how closely they
interact with the staff. So while replacing the cook with a robot may not
reduce the risk, replacing the server with one will.

~~~
catalogia
There are cheaper ways to replace a server than with a robot. For instance,
with a counter. You could make an air-locked counter built like a fume hood
for a small fraction of what a single serving robot would cost.

------
contingencies
I am a foreigner running a rival food automation venture in Guangdong. I had
resigned from HN participation but thought to rejoin and post thoughts as this
is quite close to our area.

The venture under discussion Qianxi Robot Catering Group (千玺机器人餐饮集团系) who are
owned by real estate group Country Garden (碧桂园 / 02007.HK) who invested 2.4B
RMB (USD$33.5M) in the company. It has four subsidiaries including Zhiyuan
Technology (智源科技), Bijiashun Kitchen (碧家顺厨), Youbisheng (优碧胜) and Biyouwei
(碧有味).

Background is that the parent group sees the combination of robotics,
agriculture and real estate as a growth area.

It reportedly spent USD$87M on robotics research in the first half of 2019 and
will spent "at least" 80B RMB or USD$11.2B on robotics research in the next 5
years. This includes another company in the group '博智林机器人' (Bright Dream
Robotics).

For the current robotics restaurant group, in January 2020 it reports that it
will "refine its mass production plan and expand its stores nationwide in
2020."

Includes welcome robots, frying robots, dessert robots, burger robots,
bartending robots, claypot rice robots, wok robots, cloud track systems and
ground delivery robots, etc.

32 wok based cooking robots and a claypot robot that can make 24 claypot meals
at the same time.

My own investors have visited this venture and reported that there were
technical problems prohibiting its automatic operation. It seems condiments
are supplied by the numerous staff, rather than automatically, and many
specific robot interfaces are also handled by staff. For the wok robots, it is
reported there are 32 dishes made by robots, and it appears that each wok only
makes one (fixed program). Note that the packaging for drinks appears to be
the largest and most expensive type of take-away cups available which are
presumably selected in order to minimize precision, rigidity and consistency
related issues with cheaper plastic lid pressure application processes. There
is no evidence of self cleaning. The burger frying robot appears to have the
following structure based on two Kuka standard light weight industrial robot
arms. The left side focuses on parallel burger frying in sets of three. The
right side combines the deep fried (fries, possibly 'fish cakes'). The process
is as follows.

A uniform shaped, pre-cut half-bun is grilled and then placed on a new sheet
of packaging. Pre-chopped lettuce is added by extracting an apparently weight-
measured portion from an apparently hidden rotary dispenser. A chicken burger
is fried and then lifted by pneumatic suction. Apparently either the burger or
the top of the bun can have sauce applied, or the algorithm has changed. The
top is placed on the burger then it is packaged by a complicated folding
mechanism. Finally the result is stuck together with a sticker then lifted and
placed in the output queue.

Esimate cost of burger system: 2 linear motion systems + 2 robot arms + custom
aluminium + grippers + pneumatics + stock framing + heating systems +
industrial control systems + air extraction system + frying system + deep
frying system + sauce dispensers. Conclusion: expensive, likely over
USD$40,000 in parts before labour and design.

Our venture - Infinite Food - retain what we believe to be a global technology
lead in the sector and look forward to launching our world first service
supplying personalized food retail from a network of kiosk form factor
automated restaurants. invest at 8-food dot com if interested.

~~~
eunos
> 2.4B RMB (USD$33.5M) Should be either USD$335M or 240M RMB, no?

Anyway, I wonder whether software development for robot can utilize open-
source platform, or does it need proprietary software exclusively?

Also, how configurable these robots for different or new menu?

~~~
contingencies
Right you are, $339M at current exchange rate. Anyway its silly money.

The problem with open source platforms are that they generally provide tooling
to target only generic motion systems, and generic motion systems are poorly
matched to most specific tasks when it comes to real world metrics. Even if
they can perform a task, they tend to be cost, time, space or programming
inefficient, require additional complexity (eg. vision system pairing or very
high complexity actuators/effectors), come with reliability challenges, etc.
Efficient execution relies upon whole domain conception, which includes
software, process engineering, mechanical engineering, food safety, cost,
reliability, serviceability, manufacturability, IP protection and other
considerations.

The domain is simple in conception, but very complex in execution.

The robots by this competitor are not reconfigurable at all, they have one for
burgers, one for stirfries, one for basically boiled rice stew, one for ice
cream, one for drinks, etc.

We are far more advanced.

------
forgotmyhnacc
Does anyone know if there are videos of the robots in action? The GIFs are
choppy and don't show enough

~~~
eunos
[https://youtu.be/YPoAjRxyBQQ](https://youtu.be/YPoAjRxyBQQ)

~~~
blackrock
That was pretty slick.

Although those robots sure do look expensive. For now. But once you build out
the software, the replication costs are minimal. And the robotic machinery
will eventually get cheaper, when mass produced.

This video was released just before the virus hit. So it’s perfect for our
solitary and isolated post-pandemic world.

~~~
eunos
Not to mention that it seems that Chinese have higher trust with robots
[https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-
tech/article/3033143/almost-90...](https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-
tech/article/3033143/almost-90-cent-chinese-workers-trust-robot-more-their-
human-managers)

Whearas I assume in US, "human touch" is still preferable, e.g. Preferring
human operator vs robovoice.

------
aaron695
I love the way it's pretty clear this won't work.

It'll be full of people out the back, faking the experience and constantly
repairing robots, for the diners to get the performance.

A great practical robot for a restaurant is a dishwasher.

These robots are straight from Disney.

------
kyriakos
I am not sure sure how much these robots learned as the article claims based
on the gifs they are specialised production like robots doing a single
repetitive task each. Still impressive but not much different than a modern
car factory.

------
jpalomaki
Is this the way to turn services like Uber Eats profitable?

Instead of small restaurants, you could have ala carte factories cranking
dishes under different brands. At scale investment in automation makes more
sense.

~~~
wenc
If you mean online-only ghost kitchens, they sure do work (even without
automation). They already exist today (I believe former Uber CEO Travis
Kalanick has a ghost kitchen venture).

Right now, most ghost kitchens have one major shortcoming: they lack a
compelling narrative. Restaurants don't just sell food -- they sell a story, a
distinction. They sell a distinct style of ramen or pizza or pasta because the
chef brings their culture and training to the product. Standard markup gets
you margins, but a compelling story coupled with good execution adds a
premium.

In this regard, pure-play ghost kitchen food feels empty and generic. There's
no story or flair behind it, just a factory production line. For the "food as
fuel" demographic -- this doesn't matter. Food is food, pizza or pasta is the
same anywhere. For people who believe "food is culture" \-- this matters a
lot. I'm not going to order pizza from a generic Grubhub place named "Sam's
Pizza".

One way around this is perhaps to have restaurants with pre-existing
narratives to lend their name/brand and process to a ghost kitchen operation.
The Filipino chicken chain Jollibees -- which has name recognition -- is
trying this out, so we'll see.

~~~
yoshyosh
Honestly I think if the "robot" food is truly incredible and delicious, I
don't buy that the story will matter much at all. That paired with high value
relative to cost, likely leads to a world where only the edges survive, "fine
dining" like experiences and cheap but good options. Agreed with the power of
ghost kitchens leveraging brand, this is what sweetgreen does to help with
their distribution

------
DonHopkins
Robots make terrible waiters!

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXsUetUzXlg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXsUetUzXlg)

------
fortran77
Robotic food preparation (at least for fast, simple meals) would be welcome in
the post-Pandemic world.

~~~
catalogia
There's little if any evidence to support fear of Corona transmission through
food. You get corona by breathing it, not eating it. Restaurants have taken a
hit because their dining areas are dangerous, not their kitchens (not to the
consumer anyway, the employees are a hazard to each other.) I've been eating
7-11 hotdogs this entire time in a city that's been locked down for months;
they never stopped food prep because there's really little reason to stop it.

For that matter, our world has been "post-pandemic" for longer than recorded
history. It's not even the first pandemic in the modern era.

~~~
fortran77
> There's little if any evidence to support fear of Corona transmission
> through food.

You're probably right, but there's perception. And that's very important for
marketing. Pizza delivery companies are advertising their pizza as "untouched
by human hand" from the time they emerge from the oven to the time they get to
your door.

> It's not even the first pandemic in the modern era.

We have short attention spans. Not everyone is a history expert/pedant like
you.

~~~
catalogia
If my intent was to be pedantic, I would have pointed out that we're not
_post_ -corona because it's still ongoing. My actual point, which I had hoped
you would infer, was that _people have short attentions spans._ I see little
reason to believe corona will have lasting profound social impact when
previous pandemics in the modern era did not. Judging by road traffic, people
are already beginning to return to their normal lives even though this
pandemic still hasn't run it's course. I think in a few years it will be
nearly forgotten, just like the other pandemics.

------
Animats
This makes sense at scale. The restaurant seats 600. Some form of assembly
line is essential.

~~~
blackrock
The economics of this might be interesting.

Say they are only targeting to make $1 per meal.

And they’re opened for 14 hours a day, 10 am to 12 am midnight. And say
they’re always operating at full capacity. And each table has a 45 minute
window between turnovers, so you eat your meal in 45 minutes. So you’ve got
about 18 rotations throughout your day. And assume the 600 seats are always
optimally filled.

Then, 18 x $600 = $10,800/day

Then, in a year, this could theoretically become: $3.94 million/year.

You could always adjust your numbers, like if they target $2 in profit per
meal, then this could theoretically be $7.9 million/year.

Then, at these rates, the initial capital outlay for these robots, might just
be worthwhile. Say, you spend $1 million for the robots and machinery, then,
it would take 3 months to recover that cost.

Of course, you also have to factor in other costs like the front workers,
cleaners, security, and dish washers (unless they have a robot for that too).

But at least you don’t have to pay for a cook anymore. But you will have to
pay for a Quality Assurance guy to watch the robots.

And most people prefer to eat during the lunch and dinner rush, so you won’t
get to hit the full theoretical operating capacity, thus limiting your
profits. But you can try to make more in profit per visitor instead.

~~~
contingencies
Average meal delivery prices in second tier cities approximate or exceed 20RMB
per meal. After ingredients at least 15RMB or 75% of that is potential margin.
Roughly, this demographic covers at least the higher earning ~60% of the
Chinese population or 840M people if you can scale it. Now, according to
various sources food delivery networks currently deliver USD$35B/year to 400M
unique users in China. Replace that with robots and you are talking faster
itch scratching, better personalization, higher reliability, more choice,
higher cleanliness, 24H availability, smoother experience (no "where are you I
am outside" phone calls). So, forget your $10,800/day figure. Think
USD$35B/year = ~USD$100M/day, discounting any growth. Now grow that, value the
market position and lock-in in addition to the cashflow, and you have an idea
of the real opportunity... that's how we see it, anyway.

~~~
blackrock
My estimate was for 1 restaurant location.

The company can build out 10,000 robotic restaurants like this, which may
bring you closer to your estimate of $100M USD per day.

But, there’s also competition. Which will limit your earnings.

~~~
contingencies
Yes. We made the strategic decision control production, already have our own
1000m2 factory with heavy equipment enabling nearly full internal production
and absolutely intend to build tens of thousands of units ourselves.
Incidentally this means we can produce far more cheaply than if we had
outsourced through contract manufacturers (default approach of foreign
foodtech firms), and also in conjunction with modular design means we can
pivot rapidly should we generate upgrades or revisions to hardware. You would
be surprised how much convenience matters in the food retail market: the
consumers tend to see only the immediate itch-scratching option, and mentally
discard the competition. Just look at the recent explosion of 'food' in
convenience retail chains globally since around Y2K, reportedly their largest
growth area for decades.

