
Volkswagen unveils the ID.3, its first affordable long-range electric car - Xixi
https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/9/20857217/volkswagen-vw-id3-electric-price-specs-mile-range-frankfurt-motor-show-2019
======
jwr
European here, trying to actually buy the thing. You can't. The first
reservations will be fulfilled in the middle of 2020, but those will only be
the mid-sized battery versions.

If you want the version with a larger battery, there is no firm ship date, but
it is expected in 2021.

What I find somewhat amusing is that for the past months we've been bombarded
by a huge marketing campaign advertising a car that doesn't exist :-)

~~~
PorterDuff
"huge marketing campaign advertising a car that doesn't exist"

Perhaps they are trying to gauge the likely success of the car before some
final production decisions are made.

You do have to wonder how Tesla is going to survive the first surge of
practical mass-market electric cars. They definitely are riding some sort of
tiger while trying to build out marketshare, technology, infrastructure.

My money is on Toyota but would be thrilled to be wrong.

~~~
jayrot
Tesla is first to market on a lot of fronts and has the huge first-mover
advantage, but you're right, when the competition gets _real_ the easy wins
will be over.

It has been said -- many times -- that the actual major advantage of Tesla
cars is that they get better over time by virtue of their software update
process. While many many of the big players (VW, Toyota, Honda, etc.) are
going to match specs when it comes to battery range and whatnot, I haven't
seen any indications that any of them intend to follow suit with the software.

My 2 year old Toyota _already_ feels like it is locked in the stone age when
it comes to the software and features.

~~~
dmitrygr
I would _pay_ for my car to NEVER update without my express approval. That is
the definition of "my" \- I get to decide how and when it changes. In fact, i
think i will do just that. I might pick up one of these ID cars and thus vote
with my wallet.

I am no EV fanboy, but this one looks like a practical second car fit for
simple short-range missions

~~~
mrfusion
Can’t you just remove the sim?

~~~
NotSammyHagar
yes, or more directly pull the fuse. But as the other poster said, the updates
are fantastic, you get useful new functionality and my 5 year car has huge
numbers of useful things that weren't in the original car.

------
herodotus
> The central focus is a new 10-inch touchscreen that sits in the middle of
> the ID.3’s dashboard. But VW has also opted to rely on touch-sensitive
> buttons throughout the cabin. In fact, the only things that are controlled
> through physical buttons, VW says, are the windows and the hazard lights.

I don't understand why big touch screens in cars are seen as a step forward.
To me, they raise safety issues, and they lack the elegant and simple
ergonomics of earlier cars. By definition, you have to look at a touch screen
to use it. In older cars, you might have to glance at the speedometer, and you
can do that without even moving your neck.

The huge screen is the number 1 reason I would not buy a Tesla.

~~~
vitaflo
You also can't use them with gloves on, and at least where I live, I'm always
wearing gloves in the winter.

~~~
taf2
You can buy touch screen friendly gloves... I always keep a pair in my car...
nice thing about an electric car is you pre-heat without burning gas and being
generally evil to the environment:)

~~~
Marsymars
Those don't work if it's especially cold. Even if cold-weather mitts had
capacitive ability, they don't allow enough dexterity to do anything other
than mash your hands all over a screen.

I wear these mitts in the winter:
[https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_CA/mens-
gloves/merc...](https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_CA/mens-
gloves/mercury-mitts-BD801118_cfg.html)

~~~
petre
You drive a car with boxing gloves on?

~~~
Marsymars
If you're calling the mitts I linked boxing gloves, then yes. They work just
fine for turning the car on/off, steering, shifting, operating the stalk
instruments and adjusting all the knob-based controls. I've got Raynaud
syndrome (as do a number of my family members), and the alternative to wearing
"boxing gloves" in the winter is very uncomfortable.

------
sowbug
_VW says the base version of the ID.3 will only charge at up to 50kW, and
owners who want to charge faster (up to 100kW) will have to pay extra_

This is an unfortunate decision. Charging EVs is a collective-action problem.
Selling cars that have at least double the charging time at capable public
chargers contributes to that collective-action problem. VW could have set a
relatively quick lower boundary on charging speed, perhaps by raising the
price of the higher-version models to subsidize the price of a 100kW base
model.

The problem is worse for this class of car, which is billed as long-range and
thus is more likely to have the car's occupants (and other queued cars)
waiting for a mid-journey charge to complete, versus a short-range car where
owners are more likely to charge overnight or during a work shift.

------
everdrive
I'm really excited for more viable electric vehicles. But, the claim that this
is the first car for the masses when it's simply 2-3k (~33k to ~35k in USD)
cheaper than a Tesla model 3 is discouraging.

That said, I do understand that the total cost of ownership does catch up if
you keep the car long enough. I would just love to see something in the 20s,
or even lower. (Further, I'm very sympathetic to the argument that reduced
carbon is more important than my personal financial expense.)

[edit]

Thanks for all the clarification. I had no idea about VAT.

~~~
Xixi
Be careful when comparing EU prices to US prices: EU prices always include
sales tax (varies by country, but 20% in France and 19% in Germany), while US
prices never include them. Assuming 10% tariffs and 20% sales taxes, that
bumps the $35,000 Tesla to $46,200, or about 42,000 EUR.

Indeed the cheapest Model 3 that I could find in France costs 42,600 EUR. If
the Volkswagen ID.3 comes in somewhere between 26,000 EUR and 30,000 EUR, it
will indeed be quite a bit cheaper.

~~~
codeulike
UK checking in here. Cheapest Model 3 in the UK is £38,500 which is about
44,000 euros or $48,000

~~~
codeulike
(thats including tax, and govt subsidies)

------
craig1f
This is what, in marketing, is called "positioning".

VW is trying to "position" their car as the default electric car, or at least,
the only viable alternative to Tesla.

If you don't set your own position, then your competitors will set your
position for you. Now it's up to Tesla (or whoever else) to re-position VW,
without looking nasty doing it. "The ID.3 is good choice if you can't afford
the extra $3k for a Tesla. But only a Tesla has all the features you need, and
will keep your family alive in an impact". You don't say "Tesla good, ID.3
bad". This makes you sound nasty. You say "ID.3 good if <scenario that doesn't
apply to customers>, but Tesla better if <scenario that applies to customers>"

It's all marketing nonsense at this point until the car exists.

------
Xixi
An article comparing the cost of ownership of Volkswagen ID.3 vs. Volkswagen
Golf: [https://cleantechnica.com/2019/09/19/volkswagen-id-3-vs-
volk...](https://cleantechnica.com/2019/09/19/volkswagen-id-3-vs-volkswagen-
golf-5-year-cost-of-ownership-comparison/)

Cost of gas and electricity are based, if I understand correctly, on German
prices.

~~~
pwagland
Note that at least part of the lower TCO is due to the fact that they expect
the id.3 to retain 43% of value, and the normal golf to retain 33% of value.
Setting these to equal eliminates any advantage, either way, the 5 year cost
difference is largely a wash out.

That different cars retain value differently isn't intrinsically a problem,
however assuming a high resale value for an unknown car feels like stacking
the deck. To be fair, the author does give a justification for this
difference, it's up to you if you agree with it.

~~~
ganzuul
Regarding long-term value, a bus company here chose to order electric buses in
part because they suspect that in the lifetime of a bus, diesel engines could
be banned in cities.

~~~
clouddrover
That's starting to happen now in Paris: [https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-
france-paris-pollution/gre...](https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-paris-
pollution/greater-paris-to-ban-old-diesel-cars-from-summer-2019-idUKKCN1NH2BE)

------
vincent-toups
For the masses? My family is doing fairly well for people in my generation and
I've never ever briefly considered buying a car for more than 10k.

~~~
zaroth
That’s a nice anecdote. The average new car selling price is over $30k (in the
US).

~~~
mbrumlow
I think the point is a used 10k car will almost always be more cost effective.

~~~
rasz
Bangeronomics make most sense only if you are willing to work on your own car.

~~~
beatgammit
Not really. For $10k, I got a car in really good condition with ~$60k miles,
and most cars don't have issues until at least 100k miles, if not closer to
150k miles. My car has ~120k miles right now, and I've done very little aside
from getting oil changes and having the factory service around 90k miles.

My car cost ~$20k new, and I could sell it for $3-5k, so I'm already ahead if
I sold and bought another $10k car today.

Buying a new car only really makes sense if you're really interested in
cutting edge technology or are very particular in the options you want. You
can't really get a reasonable electric car used, so new is going to be your
best bet there. However, you will pay more than if you buy a quality used car.

------
littlecranky67
On a side note: German government just announced tax incentives for business-
registered EVs, but only for those with a sales price less than 40.000€ [0].
This seems like a tailored offer to exclude the Tesla Model 3 in favour of
Volkswagens ID.3. This is a big deal as 2/3s of all newly registered cars are
registered by businesses [1] (German).

[0]: [https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/germany-offer-
higher-...](https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/germany-offer-higher-ev-
incentives-raise-fuel-prices-reduce-co2-emissions) [1]:
[https://conplore.com/news-posts/diesel-dominiert-mehr-als-
zw...](https://conplore.com/news-posts/diesel-dominiert-mehr-als-zwei-drittel-
der-deutschen-firmenwagen-sind-dieselfahrzeuge/)

~~~
rasz
Similarly in Poland, current proposed plan is 30% value of a car, but with
absolute max price limit of ... ~28K Euro, meaning only Opel Corsa-E
qualifies. Why?!?

------
kabes
They claim an 8 year / 160K km warranty on their battery. But this usually
means they claim to have X percent capacity left after this time. E.g. for the
BMW i3 it's 70%. But how can a car owner even measure this? How would one go
about claiming this warranty if he thinks it degraded too much?

~~~
cbg0
> But how can a car owner even measure this?

You simply check what range you have with a full charge and compare with the
advertised range or the range you had when you bought it new for your typical
commute.

------
thowthisaway
As much as I can welcome more options for EVs, I just can't trust VW with
electronics and software. It's catch-22, traditional automakers sucks at
electronics and software, but tesla sucks at making cars.

~~~
jmpman
I just had my Tesla Model 3 serviced. A rear window needed replacing due to a
rock chip. Mobile service came out, two bolts to remove the door panel, two
for the glass. He was done in 20min. Whatever they’re designing for, it was
obvious that Tesla is 1000x better than GM when it comes to rear windows. I
recently replaced the rear window regulators on a GM Pickup. What a nightmare
compared to the Tesla. They might suck short term, but their designs for
trivial things like windows are amazing.

------
mobilemidget
Why do electric cars have such different wheels, almost closed discs style? I
still have to see the first Tesla with chrome rims.

~~~
tlb
Lower air resistance gives longer range.

The Tesla Model S has spoked aluminum rims in black. For some reason, nobody
customizes them.

~~~
magicalhippo
Regenerative breaking also means less heat in the breaks I guess, so less need
for cooling. Not sure how much that matters tho.

~~~
jillesvangurp
Motors integrated into the wheel might become a thing as well.

~~~
magicalhippo
You mean make a comeback.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner-
Porsche](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner-Porsche)

~~~
tlb
That car would have been more popular if you could tell, by looking at it,
which end was the front.

------
notJim
All the negativity is overlooking that this is a really exciting time for
electric cars, IMO. Aside from price, Tesla is still by far the best option
around as far as I can tell, but it's exciting that there are so many new cars
coming out. An electric car doesn't quite work for me right now because of the
limited charging options, but it seems like that's going to change rapidly.

~~~
Gibbon1
Starting a few years ago industrial/automotive electronic manufacturers
started heavily marketing stuff for electric cars and 'smart car' electronics.
Before that the industry was slightly sleepy.

EV's mean a total rethinking of just about everything automotive.

------
bryanlarsen
It's interesting to compare this car against the Honda e, which looks like an
awesome little car. However, they've priced it about €7,000 more than the id.3
which is probably the reason it's getting comparably little buzz.

~~~
codeulike
But the Honda-e has less range, right? Over here it says the Honda-e has about
125 miles of range, putting it on par with a 2016 Leaf.

[https://ev-database.uk/car/1171/Honda-e](https://ev-
database.uk/car/1171/Honda-e)

~~~
iagovar
I just discovered this SEAT: [https://ev-database.uk/car/1191/SEAT-Mii-
Electric](https://ev-database.uk/car/1191/SEAT-Mii-Electric)

This is something I can buy.

~~~
codeulike
Hey thats a pretty good price. Built on the same platform as the ID3
apparently. 125 miles range is OK for 99% of the time. Long journeys then take
a bit of planning but its very do-able.

~~~
konschubert
No, it's the same care as the VW e-up!, which is not yet based on the new MEB
platform.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
I don’t think it is, this is based on a new platform that replaces the old
e-up (which was rather mediocre).

------
nrjames
All looks good, but the charging rate seems really slow.

~~~
Lendal
Is there any technical reason for limiting the charge rate unless you pay
more? I see this is becoming common now. Even Tesla does it.

I'd be willing to settle for the smaller battery as long as charging it was at
the same higher rate. Sure, charging sessions are more frequent during long
trips, but if you're charging a smaller battery at the same rate then the
charging sessions are shorter. So it seems like they're just trying to get
more money out of you by limiting the charging rate of the low-end cars.

~~~
magicalhippo
The charging rate is related to how many cells the battery pack consists of.
Each cell can take a certain charging current, so more cells = higher total
current.

If they implement the longer range by adding more cells (which I assume they
do), then that's your technical reason.

Of course, could also just be a way to get more money...

------
codeulike
Can someone summarise the prices for the different battery sizes? - because
this article just dances all over the place.

~~~
a012
VW only announce the price of base model which is about EUR30k, no prices of
two upper models yet.

------
fnord77
You can buy a Chevy Bolt today and it has a longer range.

~~~
tyingq
_" the ID.3 will come in three variants that offer between roughly 205 and 340
miles of range"_

The 2020 Bolt appears to have 259 miles of range, up from 238 for the 2019
model.

------
jjtheblunt
VW ID.3 sure looks like a BMW i3, 5 years improved.

