
Eating out increases levels of phthalates in the body, study finds - pmoriarty
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/29/eating-out-increases-levels-of-phthalates-in-the-body-study-finds
======
pluma
Sounds like this is mostly about fast food chains, not restaurants in general.
It also seems like this story should really be about calling out specific
restaurants/chains for contaminated food, not presenting it as a general fact
about restaurants.

~~~
forgotmypw
There is little difference between "fast food chains" and "restaurants in
general".

Fast food chains make their food from prepared components that they buy in
bulk through some sort of homogenized supply chain. So do most restaurants.

Fast food chains involve a lot of plastic in their food preparation, even hot
food and even while cooking. So do most restaurants.

Fast food chains use food components that are optimized for shelf life, using
whatever chemicals that the FDA said are "generally recognized as safe" in
1958. So do most restaurants.

And so on.

Places where the chef goes out to the farmer's market every morning, hand-
selecting the ingredients, and then painstakingly crafts your meal using only
metal and ceramic are the exception rather than the norm.

Even one-off family restaurants where you get "good" food are doing most of
this stuff, just because it is the norm, and they don't see anything wrong
with it.

If you don't believe me, just go in the kitchen of your favorite restaurant
and observe what the chef does and read the ingredients on the big containers
of "raw" ingredients.

~~~
coldtea
> _Fast food chains make their food from prepared components that they buy in
> bulk through some sort of homogenized supply chain. So do most restaurants.

Fast food chains involve a lot of plastic in their food preparation, even hot
food and even while cooking. So do most restaurants.

Fast food chains use food components that are optimized for shelf life, using
whatever chemicals that the FDA said are "generally recognized as safe" in
1958. So do most restaurants._

Depends if in "non fast-food restaurants" you include a TGIF or a Chipotle.

~~~
forgotmypw
I'm including both corporate chains like TGIF and Chipotle, in addition to:

* that sushi restaurant in the strip mall, that serves you rice cooked with fluoride water and soy sauce with sodium beonzoate

* that "gourmet" deli that serves you sodium nitrate-laden on top of pesticide- and preservative-laden bread with a yellow #5 pickle.

* that coffee shop that pours a hot beverage at 140F/60C into a plastic-lined, plastic-lidded cup.

* that cafeteria in that corporate office that heats up frozen soup in a plastic bag before pouring it into the serving pot.

* and so on

Our food system resembles a Brave New World-esque intelligence test that most
of us are failing.

~~~
vorpalhex
> fluoride water

So... tap water? Most countries add flouride to their tap water because it
improves dental health. Unless you're a redneck screaming about alien mind
control, that isn't some crazy scary chemical compound.

> soy sauce with sodium beonzoate

*Sodium Benzoate

Again, perfectly boring salt that reduces pH. Not some scary mind control
substance, just a salt you can produce at home.

> sodium nitrate-laden

Every preserved meat in the world. Also found naturally in Chile.

> pesticide- and preservative-laden bread

Pretty much been the case since humans found out about vinegar. I wouldn't
call < 1% in total to be "laden" though, unless you're eating an awful lot of
bread.

> yellow #5

You realize that was a myth that it would reduce your sperm count right? There
is a segment of the population that has a sensitivity to it, but it's pretty
small.

> heats up frozen soup in a plastic bag

Again, most plastics are rated for this. Also helps cut down on glass shards
in your food, or badly sanitized cookware giving you the runs.

I'm sorry, but your points here aren't some ultimate "gotcha", they're just
anti-scientific scaremongering. I'd tell you to stock up on tinfoil for those
hats, but I heard that causes alzheimer's.

~~~
pmoriarty
_> > sodium nitrate-laden_

 _> Every preserved meat in the world. Also found naturally in Chile._

Just because it's common or "natural" doesn't mean it's not bad for you. There
are legitimate health concerns about nitrate use in foods.[1][2]

 _> > heats up frozen soup in a plastic bag_

 _> Again, most plastics are rated for this. Also helps cut down on glass
shards in your food, or badly sanitized cookware giving you the runs._

How do you know which plastics are being used by the restaurants you eat at?
And what does "being rated" for heating actually mean? Does it mean that no
plastic or other chemicals from the bag actually gets in to the food? As a
consumer I have no way of knowing.

 _> I'd tell you to stock up on tinfoil for those hats, but I heard that
causes alzheimer's._

This sort of snark is really not welcome on HN. Please try to be civil.

[1] - [https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/01/bacon-cancer-
pr...](https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/01/bacon-cancer-processed-
meats-nitrates-nitrites-sausages)

[2] -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16510960](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16510960)

~~~
conkerspoon
Ignoring conspiracy theory gibberish (in this case the fluoridated water
rubbish) is MUCH worse than calling it out. You want HN to eventually be
populated solely by ‘science proves immunization causes autism’ fruit-cakes?
Then keep doing what you’re doing, which is ignoring their lunatic
conspiracies and attacking anyone who calls them out with petty sanctimonious
appeals to the rules.

~~~
forgotmypw
Instead of calling you out, I'll just leave these here...

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3433161/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3433161/)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3144112/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3144112/)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11275672](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11275672)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17097768](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17097768)

------
Steve44
This only seems to be a correlation between people reporting having eaten out
and the test levels. I can't see why restaurant food would be that much
different to home cooked food unless there was something very wrong with the
supply chain or kitchen practices.

The newspaper article does not mention if they have looked at following the
source of these phthalates back up the chain to see where they actually come
from.

~~~
sametmax
My theory is that most affordables restaurant don't make food anymore, they
assemble it. So it comes from multiple packages. Add the fact there is a lot
of take away / doggy bags, which means repackaging the finished product, and
stronger hygiene regulation, which mean detergent used in contact with the
food, and you have more opportunities for phthalates to come by.

While at home, you may very well cook it from more raw ingredients, with less
packaging, put it on a plate, and just quickly wipe the table and plate when
you're done.

You will also cook a big meal for the entire house, while a lot of restaurant
are just fast food, preparing one meal per person.

Remember, for most families, they won't go to a michelin restaurant. They will
got to Scramblz', Chipotle or the local "italian".

~~~
nicoburns
I think this may be US-specific. In the UK, there are certainly chains that
'assemble' food, but there are also a whole bunch of similarly priced chains
amd independent resturants that cook fresh food. It's not michelin star
quality, but it's fresh. In general I think resturaunts tend to add more
seasoning (such as salt, sugar, etc) than most people cooking at home would.

~~~
curun1r
I wouldn't be too sure it's just the US...there was a somewhat-recent
controversy in France: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/french-
restauran...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/french-restaurants-
acknowledge-serving-factory-frozen-
food/2013/07/09/9857b69a-dda2-11e2-b797-cbd4cb13f9c6_story.html)

------
pipio21
This should be "Eating out in industrialized fast food American food chains
increases levels of phthalates in the body".

A restaurant is a different thing. In places like Spain, France or Italy when
you say "restaurant" you never refer to "MacDonnals", "BurgerKing" or
"FostersHollywood".

~~~
prepend
What are you talking about? BurgerKing is certainly classified as a restaurant
in Spain, France, and Italy. What do they call these places? I’m not sure how
you validate such an absolute statement. My own travels had many examples of
people in these countries using restaurant to refer to both fast food and sit
down restaurants.

There are thousands of web pages like this s one using restaurant to describe
McDonalds in Spain - [https://www.quora.com/What-is-mcdonalds-in-Spain-
like](https://www.quora.com/What-is-mcdonalds-in-Spain-like)

~~~
arthurbrown
You're referencing a quora post by an American about some time spent in Spain.
How is this an authoritative source? The following answer specifically rails
against fast food and contrasts it against "restaurants and tapas bars",
implying a difference.

Sure you can use restaurant as a term to refer to a "place where food can be
ordered" \-- but if someone speaks the word, fast food is not what comes to
mind.

~~~
mynameishere
Well, the word will come to mind for those of us who use words correctly,
rather than twisting them because we feel superior to the people at one
establishment or another.

 _a business establishment where meals or refreshments may be purchased_

[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/restaurant](https://www.merriam-
webster.com/dictionary/restaurant)

My impression of the food service industry is that you have big companies like
MCD that control their own supply chains, really expensive places where the
chef goes to market every morning, and 95 percent of everything else where
they serve whatever arrives on the Sysco truck. There's no need to get uptight
--it's all just calories with a 1000 percent markup.

~~~
Luc
> My impression of the food service industry is ...

Once more: this is a very American view.

------
wgj
In addition to the issue of relying entirely on correlation, this report only
states relative percentage increase without stating absolute levels or
comparison to any known risk thresholds. Maybe 35% higher exposure isn't a
significantly greater risk.

If it is a significant risk, I don't think I can rest easier only getting two
thirds the exposure staying at home. That's still a lot of plastic if I'm
actually that close to a toxicity threshold.

Edit: Also, as I noted in another comment, both CDC and Wikipedia are much
more conservative about the health impact, making the question about toxicity
threshold even more relevant.

[https://www.cdc.gov/biomonitoring/Phthalates_FactSheet.html](https://www.cdc.gov/biomonitoring/Phthalates_FactSheet.html)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalate#Health_effects](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalate#Health_effects)

------
spodek
I can't tell if we treat our environment or our bodies worse, but the same
mental process seems to drive how we treat each.

The result is the same: to save a percent here and there we trash both.

~~~
gnulinux
I'm really sorry but I don't get the anaology. Eating home is significantly
cheaper than eating out. How are those two things similar?

------
subpixel
In my office, I see seemingly reasonable white-collar employees regularly
microwave their lunch in all sorts of flimsy plastic containers. I’m not even
shocked anymore.

~~~
stronglikedan
I think the people who know not to microwave plastic, and don't, are a _very_
small minority. The people who have never heard it are in a slightly larger
minority. The people who have heard it's bad, but choose not to heed the
warnings for convenience sake, are seemingly the majority.

Most times I've mentioned it to someone who is about to microwave plastic,
they say something along the lines of "oh yeah, I've heard that before", as
they continue to put their plastic in the microwave and start it up. I've
given up on trying to educate people about it.

------
liberte82
Are phthalates bad?

~~~
jmhyer123
> Researchers investigating levels of phthalates in the human body, which have
> been linked to asthma, breast cancer, type 2 diabetes and fertility issues
> in the past few years...

~~~
wgj
Neither CDC nor Wikipedia show very clear support for this assertion,
especially given that the actual levels in the study weren't reported. Just
relative percentages.

[https://www.cdc.gov/biomonitoring/Phthalates_FactSheet.html](https://www.cdc.gov/biomonitoring/Phthalates_FactSheet.html)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalate#Health_effects](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalate#Health_effects)

------
xutopia
Everybody here has an idea of why this occurs and they all mention packaging.
Did you see inside a McDonalds kitchen? They use plastic trays to cook and
hold foods instead of stainless steel we would see in high end restaurants.

I am certain that food grade plastics leak into food at high heat when oils
and other food compounds are present.

------
thefounder
The headline is misleading

~~~
vixen99
Misleading in some measure, as is almost every headline - given that
appropriate qualifiers necessarily disqualify the text as a headline. But most
of us assume that's the case and judge accordingly on the content.

------
djyaz1200
It's the receipts, they are printed on paper that has these chemicals and
handed to people right before they eat. As a test try not to touch the recipe
when they attempt to hand it to you and get ready to be just about assaulted
by the clerks as they try to force you to take it.

[https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i35/Touching-thermal-
paper-r...](https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i35/Touching-thermal-paper-
receipts-extend.html)

------
alphanumeric0
I'd be interested to see more at-home test kits for these sorts of biomarkers.

------
vorotato
I thought this title was referring to the euphemism.

