
Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools - JumpCrisscross
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-03/trump-s-next-trade-war-target-chinese-students-at-elite-schools
======
nneonneo
Students from China (and many other countries) are required to renew their
visas annually, a process which is already quite nerve-wracking for many. PhDs
in particular can take anywhere from 4 to 8 years to complete, meaning 4-8
chances for your studies to be interrupted with the only option to return home
while the visa renewal stalls. This article explicitly calls out the fact that
renewals seem to have been getting slower, which will impact a lot of
students.

The US already lost out on multiple academic generations of bright Iranian
students and scientists thanks to their restrictive visa policies. If they
further hamstring themselves by excluding Chinese students, the decline of
American science will accelerate dramatically. Already, science budgets are
continually slashed and grants are harder to find. Slowing the pace of
scientific development is a short-sighted move that will likely not be felt in
full for decades, but it will definitely be felt.

Science exists outside of the USA - now is as good a time as any to consider
research in places like Canada, Europe, Japan, Korea, and yes, even China.
Language doesn’t need to be a barrier - increasingly, many prolific
institutions are conducting much of their work in English.

~~~
the_svd_doctor
Your first point is incorrect.

First a student asks for an F-1 (sometimes J-1) visa. This can be delivered
for a single entry (typical for Iranian students for instance), or for 1 or
like 5 years (the common case for international students). The visa lets you
_enter_ the country.

Once admitted in the US, a student can remain indefinitely while maintaining
its student status (including school transfers). This applies to Chinese
students as well. There is no renewal and if you only go to school or transfer
school, nothing can really happen. There's nothing to renew every year.

The issue that arises is when a student leaves the US with an expired VISA.
Then he has to apply for a new one before coming back. This is where it can
get complicated. I have a student/friend who go stuck 4 months (in China)
waiting to renew his VISA.

~~~
ETHisso2017
So once a student has been on a F-1 visa for more than a year, they face a
risk of being barred from re-entering the US if they choose to visit their
families?

~~~
the_svd_doctor
Yes. Arguably, it's not common, though. But it's certainly possible, and the
reason some decide not to leave.

~~~
ETHisso2017
So... A de facto ban on exiting the country?

------
analog31
I was a grad student when the Tienanmen Square demonstrations happened.
Chinese students in the US formed the backbone of a network that maintained
communication with their compatriots in China.

I personally think that welcoming international students and treating them
with goodwill is good foreign policy.

~~~
hyperbovine
I agree with you in principle... anything that potentially averts a WWIII, I’m
willing to try. In practice though I see almost no integration between US and
Chinese students (at the undergrad level anyways) on campuses. At most
institutions there is a huge community of Chinese students, enough that there
does not seem to be a need to go beyond it in order to have a social life. A
lot of the students I interact with, even after 3-4 years living in the US,
still speak almost no English, for example. I confess to being at a loss, at
times, as to what the point of hosting so many undergrads from China really
is. (Other than making a lot of money for the university.)

~~~
hedora
After university, many foreign students stay in the US.

Majority US-born teams are vanishingly rare at all of the tech companies I’ve
encountered, and that includes some of the biggest companies to early phase
startups.

I can’t imagine Silicon Valley continuing to function without a constant
influx of foreign talent.

------
warmcat
"In April, three researchers were also let go by the University of Texas’s
M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in connection with an investigation into possible
foreign attempts to take advantage of its federally funded research." This is
the real reason why visas are getting denied. Why would you want to enjoy the
fruits of living and working in America but benefit other countries (even if
you once belonged there)?

~~~
macintux
I must admit to some confusion about why federally-funded cancer research
results aren’t available to everyone.

~~~
warmcat
Imagine getting funding in USA for research and sending the research and
results back to China so they can patent it before. Who benefits then?

~~~
cma
As opposed to a US spinoff company getting it and keeping all oversea profits
offshore in Ireland etc. to avoid taxation?

~~~
Hydraulix989
That "loophole" was closed in 2017 by the Trump Tax Cuts and Jobs Act
(GILTI/transition tax).

------
bayesian_horse
A well-known Youtuber called Serpentza recently made a video about how Chinese
students don't assimilate into American culture and how it is made difficult
for them to assimilate, partly due to overt action from the Chinese
government.

For one thing, Chinese culture is quite alien to western culture, and I don't
mean that in a judgemental way, just that their spoken, written and body
language is so much different that it is automatically harder for them. It
doesn't help that they are told by the educational system and state media how
great China is and how bad the US.

Also the students going abroad are highly selected. Not only for academic
qualities, but students (or their families) who show a lack of loyalty to the
state will have a tougher time even obtaining an exit visa. I wouldn't be
surprised if cooperation with intelligence services in terms of spying on
American universities isn't part of the deal, too.

~~~
fiblye
So because the societies are so different and have limited contact, should we
seek to cut off one of the few opportunities young people from borderline
enemy countries across the world have to interact, or give them a space to
interact freely?

I know most Chinese students at my university kept to their in-group and never
interacted with anyone else. I also know loads who found a new culture that
they felt comfortable in, made new friends, and started families.

Even if a bunch go home and forget about their time in America, plenty are
having life-changing and potentially society-changing experiences.

~~~
kuzehanka
It's not about societies being different. It's about Chinese international
students engaging in blatant plagiarism, refusing to participate in classes,
completely refusing to integrate, engaging in pro-chinese anti-local political
activism, and basically expanding the CCPs political reach into foreign
universities. This is something that all tertiary educators are painful aware
of, as is the reluctance of faculty to take disciplinary action against
international students because they're a major source of revenue. This is also
something that is quite unique to Chinese and not other international
students.

The Chinese students who don't subscribe to the CCP agenda are pressured by
the others. They get labelled traitors, ostracised, word gets around and their
families get harassed back at home.

In a nutshell, the CCP has identified inclusive societies as a soft target for
remote propaganda achieved via international students. The CCP is highly
selective in deciding who gets to leave the country to study abroad. This is
something that couldn't even be discussed until recently because such
discussions were/still are labeled as racism.

Stuff like this: [http://www.tibetanjournal.com/tibetan-girl-wins-
university-e...](http://www.tibetanjournal.com/tibetan-girl-wins-university-
election-chinese-students-protest/)

If AU/US international students tried to do anything like this in China,
they'd be deported in the following few days but not before getting death
threats and having their entire family doxxed and harassed.

~~~
DiogenesKynikos
> It's about Chinese international students engaging in blatant plagiarism,
> refusing to participate in classes

This is not only blatantly untrue, but insanely racist.

~~~
kuzehanka
[https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/ucla-
cheating/](https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/ucla-cheating/)

[https://www.smh.com.au/national/melbourne-uni-probes-
inside-...](https://www.smh.com.au/national/melbourne-uni-probes-inside-job-
exam-scam-20161007-grwwpc.html)

[https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2019/04/international-
stude...](https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2019/04/international-students-
drive-university-cheating-boom/)

[https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/exclusive-
buying...](https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/exclusive-buying-
essays-ghostwriters-allegedly-widespread-among-international-students-nz-
universities)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_dishonesty#Demographi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_dishonesty#Demographic_and_personal_causes)

~~~
DiogenesKynikos
Hundreds of thousands of Chinese students go abroad to study every year. Some
of them cheat. Some of them get caught cheating. Some of those cheating
scandals make the news. Guess who also cheats? People of every ethnicity and
country.

It is true that test prep is a big deal in China. If there's a test to get
into a top university, students are going to study like mad to pass that test.
You're portraying that as a bad thing. Maybe it is bad to study to the test,
but they're just playing by the rules as they exist - the test determines your
chances, so you study as hard as possible for that test. If you want to change
that behavior, make the test less important, or make it more creative.

One of the most disgusting smears against Chinese people is that they think
cheating is okay. Just like in the West, cheating is looked down upon in China
and cheaters are despised. Education is highly prized in China (Confucian
ideals and all that), and normal parents and teachers certainly do not accept
cheating.

What is also true is that in general, science/math education in Chinese
primary/secondary schools is far more rigorous and difficult than it is in
American schools. Kids generally learn advanced math at a much younger age in
China, and that probably has something to do with the high number of extremely
highly qualified engineers and scientists that the Chinese educational system
produces.

~~~
bayesian_horse
I don't even see them making the point that Chinese students cheat more than
others.

But there seems to be a persistent story of political activism and bullying
that is pretty unique, and it seems to stem from organized politics rather
than individual action.

------
jaggednad
From a purely self-interested perspective, this is the dumbest thing the US
could possibly do. There are talented people who want to leave China and come
study and work in the US. We are basically stealing China’s best minds. Now
we’re telling them they can’t come and shipping them back? I don’t think we
should have conflict with China, but, if you are looking for conflict with
China, sending brilliant minds back to them is so stupid that it’s almost
unimaginable

~~~
beebmam
Are you seriously saying that the children of the wealthiest families in China
are "China's best minds"? Please, show me some evidence for this egregious
claim.

There is no such thing as modern Chinese meritocracy.

~~~
Barrin92
>Are you seriously saying that the children of the wealthiest families in
China are "China's best minds"?

As we've seen with the recent scandals (and we also knew before), the
wealthiest American attendees are hardly America's best minds either.

Don't think this is a problem that only applies to foreign students. If you
want to remove wealth advantages for top tier universities I'm all for it, but
it's a bad club to use in this debate.

~~~
asdf21
Don't presume a few exceptions in America meritocracy (who drastically
overpaid and had to jump through tons of hoops to cheat the system) compare to
what is the norm internationally.

------
gojomo
This tactic could sorta make sense – if narrowly directed at "princelings" who
are children of top officials, rather than top students we'd love to have stay
in the US. (I don't have much hope clumsy trade/immigration bureaucracies &
grandstanding politicians can be that subtle, though.)

~~~
hurrdurr2
All this anti-China activity almost reminds me of the "yellow peril" at the
turn of the last century...

~~~
wavefunction
I would agree except that it's one hundred years later and there are Uighur
re-education camps and social credit scores and new islands in the South China
Sea with missile platforms and statements about reconquering Taiwan and...
well.

~~~
yourbandsucks
And the USS Maine definitely did sink in a Cuban port.

------
freewizard
Like some comments pointed out, targeting on talent will be ineffective, if
not backfiring. And just like most typical dumb policies, it's targeting on
symptoms (students not integrating or researchers leaving) not real causes and
issues in this country: race, economic and fake news.

The racial problems and slow economic in US is making international students
less motivated to stay in US, and particularly when it comes to Chinese
students, they have an easy fallback option.

The propaganda and fake news is making it worse. While on one side nationalism
propaganda is flowing in from the China (particularly on WeChat and Zhihu), on
the other side fake news targeting on Chinese students and broadly
minorities/foreigners are pushing them further away.

In the past, US administrations have made some really smart decisions like
helped establish one of best universities in China[1], and generously welcomed
the Chinese student from Tiananmen Protest in 1989[2].

This administration is fond of self-claimed wars, targeting students and
researchers is a war easy to win, even much easier than the trade war, but we
all know history which tells us where it leads to.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsinghua_University#Early_20th...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsinghua_University#Early_20th_century_\(1911–1949\))

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Student_Protection_Act...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Student_Protection_Act_of_1992)

------
Muha_
(with a terrible russian accent) USA can be the opened center of the free
world or it can be the closed and most powerful contry in the world. If USA
uses its position as the opened center of free world to become closed contry
that rules the world, we all will have a hard time.

------
ngcc_hk
The original idea is to let the idea flow. Given the greatness of freedom,
Democrat and human rights they would ... not in real life. Even down to have
top scientists who do human baby experiment.

May be if one can go two ways at least both can learn the good and bad in both
cultures. But no. Like one dudes trade it is free trade to the world but how
many can research freely in china.

Good luck. Finally wake up. It is sad that the dream of good coin can drive
out bad coin not working. Instead the coin just come, and still bad coin.

Still wonder why Soviet Union or Russia is not allowed by and large do that.
But china can. It is a wonder of the 20th century - only found out in the
21st.

------
hourislate
There is the story which isn't new that China is using some students as spies.
A long game where students end up staying in the USA after graduating and
getting jobs in Industries where they pass information back to HQ/China.

[https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/25/china-
uses-...](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/25/china-uses-
students-as-spies/)

A senior U.S. counterintelligence official recently said publicly what many
officials and experts have been warning privately for years: China is using
its large student population in the United States to spy.

------
youeeeeeediot
Elite universities have been more than complicit in this as well, especially
when they can charge such a premium on "international student" tuition. It is
also why they so often look the other way when those students bring their
cultural values on things like cheating with them. No one dares admit it for
fear of being labeled racist or xenophobic.

~~~
flukus
Can't speak for the US but this is certainly the case in Australian
Universities, I've had interns that don't speak enough English to order a
hamburger yet somehow got masters degrees. Cheating is rampant and the
Universities will look the other way, even threaten teachers that fail
students. The industry has the legitimacy of a pyramid scheme and deserves to
be shut down.

While they're here many students will also work more than the allowed 25 hours
a week (meant for industry experience not ubereats) and for below minimum
wage, which has a huge affect on the job market for younger people.

~~~
alexmlamb
Just to be clear, this doesn't necessarily mean that the students got the
degree through fraud or low standards.

Speaking and listening can be harder than reading and writing, so the students
might be doing good work even if their spoken language isn't very good. Also
in technical subjects you might not need to know the language well to pass the
tests and do the homeworks.

As an example, I have an Msc from a French language university, but I can't
really understand the language.

~~~
flukus
> Just to be clear, this doesn't necessarily mean that the students got the
> degree through fraud or low standards.

From what I understand of the process there are meant to be English literacy
tests for ESL students and I think most of them have a spoken component. It's
not necessarily the students (some or even most of them would be the victims)
but someone in the system certainly is certainly fraudulent.

As for technical competency of the ones I've worked with in the intern
program, they're lucky we didn't get to select them because they wouldn't have
passed the most basic coding test (simpler than fizzbuzz) in any language. It
was much more than the practical vs theoretical divide too, as far as I could
tell they were completely bereft of theoretical knowledge, even the basics of
their masters specialties.

------
itsaidpens
This is probably warranted.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
I disagree with you, but am curious about your argument. Wouldn’t this cut off
the brain drain that’s contributed to decades of American technological
supremacy and economic growth?

~~~
derp_dee_derp
No.

Are you trying to credit Chinese students as the sole reason for America's
technological supremacy and economic growth? Ha ha good try but no.

Besides, India isn't affected by this and they make up equal share of foreign
students in American Universities.

Plus, you know, western European students, African students, Russian, etc,
have also contributed over the decades.

China isn't everything.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Are you trying to credit Chinese students as the sole reason for America 's
> technological supremacy and economic growth?_

No, but more is more. The carrot is the cream of a billion people tasting
American culture and having the opportunity to contribute to it. I’m just
trying to see the counterbalancing, and un-mitigatable, cost or risk.

~~~
bitreality
Elite Chinese talent is more likely to return to China, and therefore it
becomes counter-productive. Plus, the US is in direct competition with China,
which isn't the case with most other countries. So, to simply say "more is
more" in this circumstance is false.

It's hardly a tragedy that rich kids in China can't attend Ivy League schools
in the US.

------
zaroth
In 2013, the number of Chinese students returning to China after graduating
hit 90%. [1]

It used to be more like 9 in 10 would remain in the US to work.

If foreign graduate students are staying and working in the US, it’s probably
a net benefit hosting them in US schools, even though it drives up demand and
therefore tuition costs for US citizens.

If 8 or 9 out of 10 are returning to China, better to keep the spot for
someone who will work in the US.

Now it’s probably government policy that’s the main driver for so many Chinese
foreign exchange students to return to China (both US and China policies align
in this sense), but it’s not like Trump is going to open up work visas for
graduating Chinese students, so in that reality it makes sense to tighten the
student visa issuance to account.

With 360,000 Chinese foreign exchange students, and I’m willing to bet that’s
disproportionately private universities (5 million total enrollment) rather
than public. I wonder what the elasticity of demand is for college these days,
and how much of a tuition price drop that could entail?

Unfortunately my personal experience is there is very little integration on
campus between foreign exchange and domestic populations, which precludes even
the cultural benefit. Colleges claim they cultivate a rich/diverse environment
but in reality the students largely exist within their own circle. It may be
different at the graduate level, where ~25% of enrollment is foreign. I recall
a NYT article last year about it, but I can’t find it presently.

[1] - [https://qz.com/1342525/chinese-students-increasingly-
return-...](https://qz.com/1342525/chinese-students-increasingly-return-home-
after-studying-abroad/)

~~~
majia
Most students returned to China because they are not allowed to work in the
US. The chance of getting a work visa dropped significantly since 2010s.

Foreign students aren’t getting American education for free; they pay much
higher tuition. They are effectively subsiding the tuition cost of domestic
students.

~~~
zaroth
I know the international tuition is much higher. But economics dictate the
university cannot increase prices when it finds itself with empty slots they
need to fill.

Universities will take a large financial hit, but tuition should also decline
in the face of lower demand.

------
msie
Uh oh, I see a lot of Chinese names on academic papers describing breakthrough
research.

------
b_tterc_p
It would be nice if we could add some human rights issues to Trump’s list of
grievances. I feel like coverage of what’s going on would feel entirely
different if part of it was saying “stop running concentration camps”

Edit: curious why the downvotes

~~~
war1025
At least to me, your comment reads like you wish Trump would act more like
Hitler so you could feel more justified in not liking him.

Edit: See reply below. I realize now that this was me misinterpreting the
parent's words.

~~~
WillPostForFood
Caring more about human rights abuses is to "act more like Hitler" Sheesh..

~~~
war1025
Perhaps I misread the comment, which is probably what other people did as well
then.

I believe based on your comment, the intended statement was "I wish Trump
would make a bigger deal out of China's human rights abuses." Which does seem
pretty reasonable.

Given the general pattern of comments on the internet where everything about
Trump is negative, I read it as "I wish Trump would have some human rights
abuses added to his list of things that are wrong with him"

As I said, sounds like that is my mistake. I am guessing others may have read
it that way as well.

~~~
zaroth
Buttercup’s comment is a sweet little Rorschach test.

