
An investigation of the Pentagon's UFO program - weare138
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a30916275/government-secret-ufo-program-investigation/
======
dvh
Here's my theory about the recent influx of UFO footages coming from high
places. US military was working on advanced drones. Nothing fancy, think
current best tech, add 15 years and billion in r&d, that kind of stuff. Then
when it was ready for test they flew it secretly before their own pilots and
waited for reports. And waited. And waited some more. Silence. They disabled
stealth, added flashlights, nothing. Military pilots didn't reported it. Maybe
Venus. Or moonlight bouncing off swamp gas, but not UFO. Why?

In past decades whenever military pilot reported UFO they were laughed at,
sent to psychologist, evaluated, sent behind the desk. Other pilots knew and
when they saw something really weird they have kept it for themselves.

Then the higher ups panicked. If they don't report our drones, they will not
report Chinese or Russian drones either. We have hundreds and thousands of
eyes in the sky but they will not report because they are afraid to speak.

So they came up with a campaign. They started to publish official UFO footage
and started more openly talk about it to show pilots that it is now ok to talk
about UFO. Don't be afraid pilots, if you see something strange jus tell us,
we take it seriously now.

There are no aliens. Videos you saw are created or modified to look legit, and
officially supported or confirmed. Goal is to encourage pilots to report
possible Chinese drones.

~~~
34679
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just pass orders down through the ranks to
report all sightings, however odd they may seem?

"Hey, we think the Chinese or Russians may have something new. It's imperative
that all unidentifiable flying craft are reported."

My personal theory is that the US knows exactly what these objects are because
they built them. I don't believe the US military would've ever commented if
they weren't fully aware of the nature of these objects. From a military
strategy point of view, that's equivalent to broadcasting a weakness.

Instead, I believe the US military is broadcasting a strength. A sort of
disclosure of capability without any real disclosure. The release of these
videos, and the accompanying comments from military personnel, in my opinion,
is a warning to other nations.

~~~
not_skeptic
Yeah, so I am curious here, why do you believe anything humans are capable of
building can do what these objects are reported as doing? I ask this in all
seriousness because I don't think you, me, or anyone else alive can answer how
they do basically any of the stuff reported. This makes it hard for me to
believe that not only has someone actually answered all of those questions,
but actually mastered the science and fielded the requisite tech to do these
things. I've seen this argument advanced before that this is super secret
squirrel shit the boys out in NM are cooking on, but there's always this
really big gap in what we can do and what these things do. What's your guess
on how the boys filled that gap?

~~~
tgflynn
One possible theory is that they aren't massive objects at all but instead are
some sort of 3D projection in the air, probably involving plasma produced with
high powered lasers, RF beams or particle beams. That would require technology
that isn't publicly known but probably doesn't violate any laws of physics.
However if you believe the claims made in this article that high-ranking
officials have excluded the possibility that the events were due to any US SAP
then this possibility becomes more remote. I think if anyone on Earth has this
technology it would be the US, simply because they spend so much more on
defense than any other country.

~~~
egfx
Interesting that there is a good amount of circumstantial evidence that leads
this way. I saw the phenomenon with other witnesses as well 22 years ago and I
simply cannot rule out projections. Seems simple enough and able to explain it
all. But then again there is supposed to be physical evidence which would
contradict everything I just said. Now that would be something.

See my previous comment on the topic
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21860860](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21860860)

------
lend000
There are several important new pieces of information here and significantly
more detail than we had before.

In particular, we learn that "Brigadier General Richard Stapp, Director of the
DoD Special Access Program Central Office, testified the mysterious objects
being encountered by the military were not related to secret U.S. technology."
There is also evidence put forward that Elizondo was put on the program
because his varied experiences and clearances would be useful in ascertaining
whether sightings were related to black projects.

There is more confirmation here that anomalous events have occurred at ICBM
bases, which is pretty sobering. The most prominent of these events happened
in the 1960's, and there are similar reports that came out of Soviet Russia
(not mentioned in this article).

We also learn the lengths that both the government and the contractors went to
deliver misinformation about the program since its initial revelation, despite
it not actually involving any exotic technology.

Many people will take this at face value and believe the Pentagon's next
statement, despite the fact that they have continuously stated "we are done
studying ufo's this time, nothing to see here" since Blue Book publicly ended,
only for there to be another program revealed later. IMO this debunks the
"secret US aircraft" angle that a lot of skeptics use, and it makes it highly
unlikely it belongs to a "local" adversary.

~~~
blotter_paper
If this is a false flag to get the world united against an extraterrestrial
threat, then nothing short of widely circulated biological specimens would
reasonably rule out secret US aircrafts. The experts said that the second Gulf
of Tonkin incident was real, too. They're the government, my dear; they lie.

~~~
lend000
You can't have your cake and eat it, too. They do indeed lie, and most of
their lies have involved calling serious unexplained incidents weather
balloons or shooting stars. The most interesting documents are not the public
statements prepared, but the private testimony between military groups behind
closed doors.

~~~
blotter_paper
I believe that most members of the US military believed the second Gulf of
Tonkin incident was real at the time -- one hand can believe lies the other
hand tells.

I'm also not arrogant enough to believe anything with 100% certainty. I think
we're probably looking at the US government (and potentially the Soviets) not
admitting to saucer shaped crafts (whether or not in preparation for a false
flag), but I'll grant you that there is some hard-to-pin-down chance of
genuinely weird shit going on. Even if we're going down that road, I'm betting
an aquatic origin is more likely than an extraterrestrial one.

------
retiredalien
The author of this article is a very impressive and credible person, but
there’s little new covered here. It’s kind of circular logic confirming things
already revealed. The individuals referenced are not impartial and are biased
by a quest for exotic technology research going back decades. They’ve used
their affiliation with the Intelligence Community to enchant investors, all of
whom have lost money.

The most compelling revelation is that the Director of the DoD SAP Central
Office reportedly told Congress that these aircraft are not US black projects.

Two key points that suggest this topic is driven by an unknown private entity
with complex financial incentives:

1) This is essentially what KG (in the article) has said in regards to the UFO
core story and the alien autopsy samples and 2) It was KG who first pitched
Robert Bigelow on building a pseudoscientific device to communicate with
Bigelow’s dead son. This was in the early 90s and happened at a retired Army
Cornel’s house. This is how Bigelow got into paranormal research.

What is undeniable is that Elizondo and Semivan work for a company that gifted
a widely known stock scammer $1.5 million and is now on the TTSA board.
Explaining this is hard beyond normal human folly.

More details from my previous comment-
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22105013](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22105013)

~~~
tgflynn
> It was KG who first pitched Robert Bigelow on building a pseudoscientific
> device to communicate with Bigelow’s dead son.

Who is KG ? - Kit Green ?

Do you have a source for this statement ?

~~~
retiredalien
Yes Kit. I don’t have a source to share. It occurred at Col. John Alexander’s
home though, so one could potentially ask him.

~~~
tgflynn
Then do you know why he did that ? I don't know much about Kit Green but the
image he appears to be trying to project is that of a serious, though open-
minded, researcher. Trying to sell someone a device to communicate with the
dead doesn't seem to fit with that.

~~~
retiredalien
I think he realized he was lied to by high-level people and has succumbed to
the reality that all this is deception.

But here he is in 2017 talking to Kay Randall-May, his ‘best psychic’ about
research at Stanford where she claim she communicates with “the Others”.
Research at Nolan Lab -

[https://soundcloud.com/project333/connectivities-that-you-
ge...](https://soundcloud.com/project333/connectivities-that-you-get-for-the-
acquisition-of-information-includes-the-others/s-50shL)

------
jml7c5
I'm disappointed by this article. There is an _amazing_ story here, and the
author missed it: a collection of UFO believers and pseudoscientific quacks
manage to get $26 million in funding from the US government. They produce
mostly nonsense, yet somehow the project runs for years. The author collected
all the pieces to tell the story, but wrote yet another "well, I'll let you
decide, but it seems there's something to it ;)" article.

I mean come on, look at the people involved! Look at the papers they've
written and the views they've espoused! There's all sorts of nonsense: remote
viewing, telekinesis, harnessing zero-point energy, anti-gravity. The guy who
received most of the funds believes Skinwalker Ranch is some sort of nexus for
paranormal activity!

This could have been a _great_ story, but the author was just too damn
credulous.

~~~
tgflynn
Yeah, one possible explanation for a lot of this is that the US military has
been scammed by a bunch of quacks and they lack personnel with sufficient
scientific competence to evaluate what they are being sold.

I don't see how it could explain the 2004 Nimitz incident though.

~~~
jml7c5
The they're-a-bunch-of-quacks story doesn't have to explain the Nimitz
incident. They were given footage and reports of the incident, but the
existence or nonexistence of the event is independent of them.

~~~
tgflynn
Sorry I don't understand what you're saying here. Could you please elaborate ?
(It might help to clarify who the different instances of they and them are
referring to.)

~~~
jml7c5
Apologies! It was late and my proofreading became less rigorous.

I'll rewrite it:

"The they're-a-bunch-of-quacks story doesn't have to explain the Nimitz
incident. The AAWSAP/AATIP group were given footage and reports of the
incident, but the existence or nonexistence of the event is independent of
what that group says."

By analogy:

People see a man in the distance stumbling through the woods covered in blood.
They go to help, but can't find him. A hunting camera catches something moving
through the trees around the same time the man was spotted. The police
investigate, but it goes unresolved.

Years pass. A private detective appears in our story. This detective has
unconventional views, such as believing that dogs can see dead people,
vampires exist, Hitler is alive and imprisoned under the White House, etc. The
detective has written about these subjects. In past unsolved murders, he has
claimed Dracula was the murderer. Once, he tried to get a homeless man
arrested after a stray dog led him from a grave to a back alley.

The private detective convinces the police chief, who already has some
suspicion that vampires exist, of the danger posed by vampires. The police
chief decides to fund the private detective, telling him to investigate the
vampire angle.

Whatever the truth is regarding the blood-covered man, the police chief should
have looked at the detective's wide range of bizarre beliefs, considered the
severe deficit in judgement that those beliefs indicate, and not given him
funds to investigate the case. Especially as it turns out he's using some of
the funds to investigate all of his other wild beliefs, and even used funding
to pay the costs of a group of Hitler-is-under-the-White-House believers.

~~~
tgflynn
But we have lots of evidence about the Nimitz incident that doesn't appear to
have anything to do with AAWSAP/AATIP.

There's a video that the government has confirmed as being authentic and
showing an object they consider to be unidentified.

Further there are many (not sure the exact count, but I would say about a
dozen) witnesses who have come forward and whose stories are broadly
consistent. One of them is a retired Navy Commander who commanded a fighter
squadron on the Nimitz and who has described visual observations of phenomena
that appear to defy the laws of physics as we understand them. His testimony
was supported by 3 or 4 other witnesses who observed the same event.

So whatever opinion one may have about AAWSAP/AATIP, I don't see how the
credibility of those programs impacts that of the Nimitz incident.

~~~
jml7c5
>So whatever opinion one may have about AAWSAP/AATIP, I don't see how the
credibility of those programs impacts that of the Nimitz incident.

Perhaps surprisingly, this is actually what I've been trying to say. It
appears my communication and reading comprehension skills leave an incredible
amount to be desired. In your first reply, when you mentioned the Nimitz
incident ("I don't see how it could explain the 2004 Nimitz incident
though."), I read 'it' as "your bunch-of-quacks assertion". I thought you were
saying that in order for my assertion to be true, it had to somehow explain
the Nimitz incident. The confusion has flowed from there. I apologize for it!

(My long analogy didn't help things. I should have chosen something much more
mundane than vampires (or indicated that many people considered the vampire
theory plausible). My bias against the exotic technology explanations for the
Nimitz incident made me forget that people consider it much more plausible
than I do. It's possible I grew too attached to the little story I'd written
and forgot it had to actually communicate something!)

------
rafaelvasco
I personally have no reason to negate the existence of aliens or UFOs. I've
read a lot of testimonies about encounters and everything, and they mostly add
up with one another. The problem is that this theme is such that there's lots
of passionate people out there, and as such, there's lots of fabricated stuff
too. One must be diligent when researching about this stuff, but the evidence
is really strong;

~~~
monkeydreams
> One must be diligent when researching about this stuff, but the evidence is
> really strong

Where skeptics deviate from this reasoning is that, while there is hard
evidence (i.e. the incidence of radiation burns, radar artifacts, etc) of
something happening, the most likely explanation is terrestrial rather than
interstellar.

~~~
tgflynn
Yes, but there's pretty strong evidence that something is going on that
doesn't fit most rational people's model of reality. What that something is
could range from extraterrestrial visitors to highly classified government
programs that are protected by massive disinformation campaigns to gross
government and military incompetence.

I think it's important to find out what is really going on because all of
those explanations have major implications for the American people at least
and possibly for the entire world.

------
andrewflnr
> Mention of Skinwalker Ranch in Utah as a “possible laboratory for studying
> other intelligences and possible interdimensional phenomena.”

Using the word "interdimensional", rather than something more precise, smells
like bullshit. Specifically, it sounds more like pop scifi than actual
science. A "dimension" is an axis, not a universe, and I expect someone
writing a serious document for the government about anything, much less ETI,
to use the word correctly.Then again, I've been disappointed before. Anyway,
I'm holding open the possibility that the whole BAASS thing is the biggest,
most embarrassing contracting boondoggle of all time.

~~~
tgflynn
I agree with some of what you say in that introducing theories for which there
is absolutely no known evidence doesn't exactly help their credibility.

However:

> A "dimension" is an axis, not a universe,

I don't think you should be so absolutest about that. How do you know that
what we think of as "the universe" doesn't live entirely in a 3+1 dimensional
subspace of some larger universe ?

~~~
andrewflnr
I don't know that our universe isn't a subspace of some higher-dimensional
structure. That has nothing to do with what the specific word "dimension"
means and has always meant outside of sci-fi. There has never been a sound
reason to use the word "dimension" to describe the other possibilities you
mention. If you want to write a technical document about those possibilities
and be taken seriously, you need to find a better term. Invent one if
necessary.

~~~
tgflynn
In that case I think it's you who is misunderstanding the word. Unfortunately
I haven't the time to give you a course on Linear Algebra so unless you can
explain in more detail why you believe that the word "dimension" is
inappropriate for the case I described I'm not going to be able to help you.

I do suggest you watch this video from Carl Sagan's TV show Cosmos:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM)

~~~
andrewflnr
Linear algebra is exactly where "dimension" gets its abstract but very limited
definition as a property of spaces, best summarized as an axis or direction,
rather than a kind of space itself, which is what you need for anything like
an alternate universe. I know this because I have in fact taken a course in
it. I'm not sure what point you think you're making at this point.

~~~
tgflynn
> Linear algebra is exactly where "dimension" gets its abstract but very
> limited definition as a property of spaces, best summarized as an axis or
> direction, rather than a kind of space itself

Yes, but adding an extra dimension to a given space (more correctly stated as
asserting that a space of dimension d is embedded in a space of dimension d +
1) vastly expands the "number" of points that are available, so adding a
dimension doesn't just give you access to an additional d-space but to a whole
continuum of other d-spaces. I think this is what people are referring to when
they use the word "dimension" in this kind of context.

~~~
andrewflnr
Most people have no such precise idea when they talk about "dimensions". Those
who do would, when pressed, admit that even if you could be said to travel
_through_ or _along_ some other dimension to reach another world, or even an
infinity of other worlds, said dimension is not the same as those worlds, just
a term for a relationship between them.

Moreover, I don't care about what people think they're saying with their crap
terminology. I demand _actual accuracy_ , or at minimum precisely delimited
uncertainty, from people taking millions of dollars in government funding to
write about aliens. This is not too much to ask. (You do remember the context,
right? Evaluating the credibility of a purportedly factual report written
under a government contract, not a bar debate about cosmology)

------
jcrawfordor
In many, many ways, AATIP appears to be Skinwalker Ranch all over again and
BAASS is NIDSci all over again. There is significant overlap between the
people involved and BAASS even has an odd habit of bringing up Skinwalker
Ranch repeatedly despite a lack of a clear connection.

This is significant when you look at the history of NIDSci's investigation of
Skinwalker Ranch, which was a fairly high profile and well-funded
investigation run by essentially all the same people which, after years,
produced some popular media but few or no actual results.

To a cynical eye, it looks very much like Bigelow ran out of funding for his
ongoing Skinwalker Ranch work (thus the undiscussed decline in actual NIDSci
activity at the site despite it supposedly being an active project) and then,
through some combination of wheeling and dealing and good fortune, connected
with Sen. Reid to obtain a significant source of new funding to do similar
work. Despite this funding being directed at UFOs generally and not Skinwalker
Ranch specifically, BAASS still shows a desire to funnel that money towards
Skinwalker Ranch.

So, is this a case of the US Gov't working towards disclosure, or a case of
Bigelow finding a new source of funding for his ongoing hobby project at
Skinwalker Ranch, and the DoD and the taxpayer being taken along for the ride?
The involvement of DeLonge is an interesting twist not present for the
Skinwalker Ranch saga, but unsurprising considering DeLonge's longstanding
interest in UFOs and apparent similarity to Bigelow (wealthy, eccentric, and
interested in paranormal phenomena). DeLonge, as well as Bigelow, seems fully
prepared to play the whole matter for personal benefit through TTSA.

I do not question that there are interesting phenomena under the heading of
UAP and that that Nimitz incident might be one of the most compelling pieces
of open evidence. However, given the history of Bigelow and and almost
everyone else heavily involved in BAASS, I have a very hard time beliving that
the AATIP is going to take us in the direction of better understanding.

I feel that it takes very little background in federal contracting, especially
in the intelligence space, to fully believe that the DoD has invested tens of
millions of dollars into a total flight of fancy. This has happened many times
and will happen many more. Confusion and opacity in discussing the matter is
completely unsurprising as a result of both the complicated confidentiality
matters involved and the DoD's inherent lack of interest in being clear that
it has spent tens of millions on Bigelow's hobby.

I sound very critical, and I am. But I think the important point is that a lot
of the popular reporting on the issue, perhaps all of it, fails to discuss the
possibility that "there is no there there" and that this is quite possibly
just another story of DoD inefficacy with an unusual, Blink-182 twist.

~~~
tgflynn
Some of what you say may be true but I don't see how a billionaire "runs out
of funding" for a hobby that only costs 10 or 20 million over 5 years.

------
Animats
Why don't we have more cell phone videos of this stuff? Preferably from
multiple cell phones from different angles.

As for "lights in the sky", see [1]. It's getting way too easy to do this.

[1] [https://youtu.be/KhDEEN4gcpI](https://youtu.be/KhDEEN4gcpI)

~~~
earthtourist
I looked at quite a few of the UFO videos on YouTube and none of them seemed
legit to me except maybe this one:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-91Nobn2xk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-91Nobn2xk)

The uploader looks like the kind of weirdo that would grab their phone to
capture a UFO video but probably doesn't have the skill to create such a high
quality fake.

It also matches the "tic tac" shape described by the most credible witnesses
ever, the US Navy pilots.

~~~
Animats
Empty supply canister or a wing tank being dropped? There's a USAF base
nearby.

~~~
earthtourist
Those seem like good guesses. Either seems plausible to me.

It does some weird mid-air pause thing at 0:32. And generally seems to be
going horizontal or even increasing in altitude. Maybe that's just momentum?
It could also have tiny wings that are catching some air?

But it looks very symmetrical and also reflective. The drop tanks I could find
all look more aerodynamic and dull.

I couldn't find any good videos of drop tanks being dropped. Not sure what
kind of supply canister it could be.

I'd love to know definitively because this is the first video I've seen that
seems at all interesting.

------
remir
Let's create a scenario for one moment: imagine we're being visited by a
highly advanced civilization. Who they are, where they come from or why
they're here is totally unknown. Again, just an imaginary scenario.

Now, put yourself in the shoes of public authorities all over the world. Can
you really schedule a public speech in front of your population to declare
that someone is flying in highly advanced crafts since decades and you still
don't know who or what you're dealing with?

Of course not.

First, you'll pretend there's no such thing. Then, you'll have the air force
declare they're studying the thing. And finaly, decades after, you'll say it's
possible we're being visited and that this issue must be addressed by world
leaders.

~~~
ColanR
Note also that if these sightings are extraterrestrial in origin, that highly
advanced civilization is closely following the Star Trek Prime Directive in
its interactions with Earth.

------
mfer
When someone says UFO many people immediately think aliens. The military often
means something different. For example, a new Chinese aircraft they can't
identify is a UFO.

In this article the word "alien" only shows up twice and it's someones
opinion.

It's easy to have miscommunication on this topic.

~~~
taneq
"Any flying object is a UFO if you're bad enough at identifying flying
objects."

~~~
jandrese
This is what kicked me out of the UFO stuff. You'd see all of these amazing
sounding stories, but with zero hard evidence to back them up and little to no
attempt to figure out a non-alien explanation for the phenomenon. It's pure
conspiracy thinking, not in the least bit useful for finding the truth.
They'll take anything they hear at face value and repeat it. With little to no
hard evidence to go on (most of hit "locked up by the government") all you
have is anecdotes that trace back to lunatics attributed to third parties that
never existed.

------
PaulRobinson
At the risk of sound like a crank, this book convinced me of quite a few
things:

[https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/750010.Witness_to_Ros...](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/750010.Witness_to_Roswell)

The things I came away with were:

\- Approx. 600 former USAAF (the precursor to the USAF) staff have admitted
there was a cover-up of some description

\- Multiple first-hand dying testimonies or "open after I die" testimonies
agree there was a craft and several beings of unknown origin that were the
subject of said cover-up

\- Nobody with any expertise in Soviet technology believed it was within the
capabilities of the Soviets.

\- Nitinol possesses many of the qualities of the material said to be found by
multiple eyewitnesses. It was actively researched only after this incident,
and the public history of it doesn't tally with some documentary evidence.

And it's for those reasons I don't think anybody in the US military was
prepared to just step back and accept that these strange objects were no
threat or danger.

Nobody has to agree on ET origin to accept that something was found that posed
a threat to the country, but most people do not accept a Soviet origin.

The Roswell incident showed to some that the US public were not ready for it.
Highly religious people had breakdowns (they cycled in a new pastor on-base
for that reason, as it happened), and some like the town Mayor really, really
struggled to cope with what was going on.

So imagine you're briefed on all this as a top general in the US military.
Wouldn't you put some money into trying to figure out what is going on, and to
do so in a way that would not alarm Americans to the point of mass hysteria?
Would you not want to throw some money at some covert operations to make sure
you were getting a sense of what was going on?

As an aside, whilst the Roswell story has a fair bit of credibility - as many
others do, it's just Roswell has more witnesses that have gone on the record -
absolutely nothing that Bob Lazar has written stands up to an iota of
scrutiny. That's not how security clearances work, period.

~~~
samsari
If there really was any truth to it, then I would expect the authorities to
have been for the last several decades quietly encouraging Hollywood et al to
produce certain films and tv series. Media which would introduce and normalise
some concepts so as to soften the blow when the eventual revelation of
whatever it was about Roswell that people in the know found so difficult to
deal with.

~~~
PaulRobinson
Before Roswell there were a total of 8 films featuring ETs according to
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_featuring_extrat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_featuring_extraterrestrials)

After Roswell there have been ... well, count them for yourself.

Let's add onto that the numerous TV series from the Star Trek franchise to the
X Files, and of course the TV series itself named "Roswell".

I'd argue the decline in observation of orthodox religions is a good barometer
for how ready society is to deal with the inevitable truth that the Universe
is swarming with life, we just haven't observed it yet.

------
jcrawfordor
Evidently "Popular Mechanics is ripping open the U.S. government’s massive UFO
problem" but not bothering to proofread.

Yes, it seems a bit immature and pedantic to bother over mechanical errors in
the text. But such clear mistakes in the published text (e.g. "intuitive" when
they meant "initiative") does not speak well to their credibility as a
newsgathering organization.

Unfortunately it seems like there has been a general decay in how carefully
published material is proofread, I find a surprising number of typos and
mechanics problems in books as well. I've found Packt to be especially
egregious in this regard, many of their books seem to have been written by a
non-native speaker and then never proofread at all.

Edit: it also strikes me as a bit iffy to introduce George Knapp as a KLAS
reporter without mentioning his extensive involvement in the UFO community
including hosting Coast to Coast AM. Whether fair or not this would lead many
people (including myself) to view his information as generally less credible.

~~~
zuckluni
Solid skeptical rebuttal...

~~~
jcrawfordor
I intend this less as a criticism of the material and more as a criticism of
Popular Mechanics. I do have plenty of criticism of the material but it's a
little more substantial than an apparent lack of copy editing.

The introduction of the article really plays up its significance and this is
clearly intended to be a big feature piece for PopMech. But it introduces very
little new material to people who follow this issue and, as I was mentioning,
doesn't even seem to have been carefully prepared for publication.

------
speedplane
By now, tt seems pretty obvious that (1) there exist craft that are propelled
by some physics that we are not aware of and (2) someone in the government or
defense industry knows far more about it than the general public.

------
drummer
Anyone interestes in this should read the book Disclosure by Steven Greer.

------
coleifer
At risk of inviting ridicule, I went through a phase where I read everything I
could find on the subject of UFOs. Jacques Vallee stands out as one of the
most sober and interesting researchers on the topic. Some cases that I think
are worth checking out:

* Colares, Brazil

* JAL 1628

* O'Hare airport

* Green fireballs, Los Alamos

* Black triangles in belgium

* Solyut golden sphere (maybe soyuz, I don't recall)

* Gordon Cooper

Controversial but compelling:

* Phoenix lights

* Rendlesham

* Ariel school

* Nuremberg 1561

~~~
tqkxzugoaupvwqr
Regarding black triangles: My parents told me many years ago how one warm
evening they sat outside and looked at the sky. At a very low altitude (less
than 50 m) a large, black, triangle-shaped object flew slowly over them
without making any noise. This happened in Germany.

~~~
s8923
When was this? My uncle used to live in Germany many many years ago, and he
told me a similar story when I was a kid. He apparently saw large black
object, flying very low and absolutely silent.

------
cairo_x
What's the deal with Skinwalker ranch? Why are they interested in it?
Everything is so vague and x-filesy when people mention the ranch. Very woo
woo without any actual details about what people have encountered there. What
is the specific link between the ranch and UFOs?

~~~
jcrawfordor
In my mind, Skinwalker Ranch is one of the most clear events that should raise
questions about Bigelow's credibility. NIDSci very prominently purchased the
ranch and initiated a research project there which they even invited some
reporters to observe. Absolutely nothing came out of it besides a couple of
books which provided essentially nothing other than recapping myths related to
the site which are, themselves, of dubious origin (e.g. may have been
fabricated much later than their supposed origin). See, e.g., Kelleher and
Knapp's book.

Note that both Kelleher and Knapp are referenced by TFA - Bigelow is perhaps
the central body orbited by a dozen or so paranormal enthusiasts repeatedly
involved in various schemes. Take down a list of the researchers associated
with AATIP/BAASS and you will see their names come up over and over for the
last twenty years of paranormal phenomena - frequently associated with high-
profile research projects that quietly die with no results.

After years of work at Skinwalker, NIDSci quietly closed up shop with nothing
to show for the effort and, espeically in later years, very little apparent
activity besides hiring a guard to keep everyone else out of the site.

So obviously this is an opinionated answer, but I would say that there is
_nothing_ about Skinwalker Ranch besides some strange stories coming from the
Gormans (previous owners of the ranch) and then a tremendous amount of
confirmation bias and intrigue, most of which was only even possible because
NIDSci was so incredibly shady and non-transparent about their work there
despite inviting people to write books.

To answer your question more directly, there is not necessarily any connection
between Skinwalker Ranch and UFOs except to the extent that the greater
community (and to some extent Bigelow and his friends) have drawn tenuous
connections between Skinwalker Ranch and essentially every other paranormal
phenomena ever proposed. For example, on of the phenomena said to surround
Skinwalker Ranch is a rumbling or deep sound from the earth, which some
suggest is evidence of ongoing construction work on a deep underground
military base (DUMB). DUMBs are generally associated with interaction with
alien races or work on extraterrestrial technology, mostly due to Bob Lazar.

~~~
cairo_x
One of the most articulate and complete replies I've ever received on this
website. Thank you.

Skinwalker Ranch seems like a key to understanding the state of the art in UFO
research. In a word: Farcical. Almost on a 'men who stare at goats' type level
of ridiculousness.

------
zuckluni
to everyone theorizing.

why? first, whether you say it's aliens or "the government", face it, both
those concepts are black boxes to invoke to explain the unexplainable, ergo
they're equivalent explanations, or different valence, same kind

second, why be so quick to grasp and reduce it to a theory? why not just be a
little bit comfortable with the discomfort of an unresolved tension? why just
not be a little bit comfortable with an unanswered question, an unknown, a
mystery, something amazing and wonderful and unable to be explained? why the
need to rush to explain it reaching and grasping and expose yourself to the
error of putting your need to explain it in front of actual accuracy?

you can't end up with something good like that. you just satisfy your need of
an explanation but why not just be comfortable with the question, with the
mystery?

That's a problem without secular world.... people need to get more comfortable
with the mystery otherwise it's the stupid anthropomorphic point of view that
says nothing a human can see outside it's tiny stupid ignorant little box
exists... why not just do the easy thing and acknowledge okay there's a whole
lot of fucking mystery out there I'm not going to rush to say it's this or
that I'm just going to be okay with, "okay there's a lot of stuff I don't
fucking know"

that seems like the rationale sensible and to be honest happy perspective to
take

why everyone wants got to be so crazy to rationalize and theorize and reduce
it to some story when nobody has any fucking idea at all? isn't that just
psychosis?

do yourself a favor don't believe anything just keep an open mind don't rush
to believe cuz you most likely believe in something that's fucking crazy

~~~
tgflynn
Well if humans had always followed the approach you suggest they would never
have mastered fire or discovered agriculture. Would you rather be living as a
hunter-gatherer or some non-human primate ?

~~~
zuckluni
What i'm really saying is in this case the theorizing has gotten in it's own
way, isn't that obvious? i'm saying we should try to understand, but you gotta
have the courage to face the mystery first, so you can see it clearly, without
these kaleidoscope distortions preventing you from ever seeing the data you
need to _get_ understanding.

point of theory is to gain understanding, no? but if you're using theory as a
stick to beat other people with, and if the theory is preventing people
looking at the data (that you could turn into understanding), or if it's not
falsifiable, then it's not helping.

you can't disprove the government creates all this as a psyop. but that
'theory' discourages people from taking the evidence seriously. you also can't
disprove 'it is all aliens' but that theory discourages (perhaps another set
of people) from taking the data seriously.

theories are good! except when they're not. and in this case they've gone
fucking crazy. it's like sportsteams. there's no rationality. and science
won't touch it, that's the problem. these pathetic theories are in way. they
might be fun (to cheer for) but they're not helping understanding.

that's what i'm saying. that's the problem. or one of them, duh.

~~~
tgflynn
Well, I don't see how you can make progress without formulating theories (more
correctly, hypotheses).

I think the problem is when people become attached to a particular hypothesis.
Many people seem unable to accept that they only have sufficient information
to assign probabilities to different hypotheses and instead always assign
probability 1 to their favorite hypothesis and 0 to all the others.

------
gerdesj
I (skim) read quite a lot of the article. I had a laugh (obvs). I then skim
read the comments here. Oh fuck, I am really feeling out of place. I thought
HN is where we talk bollocks about important stuff, or important things about
bollocks or occasionally we debate important things about important things.

I'm pretty sure I did not sign up to talk bollocks about bollocks (unless
orchids are involved.) This is bollocks. How do I cancel my subscription?

~~~
gerdesj
Think I hit a nerve.

~~~
andrewflnr
You're getting downvoted because you're wasting space with your melodrama. If
you want to "cancel your subscription", just don't come to the site anymore.
Or just avoid threads you know you won't like. Definitely stop whining.

