
Whole Foods is struggling - DiabloD3
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/02/09/why-whole-foods-is-now-struggling/
======
anu7df
I don't really see why the whole foods hate is so hip. I shop there routinely
and buy mostly the non packaged stuff. Organic vegetables and fruits are
cheaper than in most chains and I really have not found any other place where
I can get grass fed (tasty), pasteurized (convenient), non homogenized (yes it
makes a difference. In taste and texture and arguably healthier) milk. Of
course I do not buy the silly precut fruits and stuff. But if someone finds it
convenient and doesn't mind spending the money I don't care. But in the end I
shop there because most stuff there is made from good simple ingredients and I
don't have to spend a long time reading ingredient lists especially the ones
that changes often

~~~
kiliantics
My gripe with wholefoods goes beyond the price. I take issue with their
business ethics and general operating philosophy. It's a pretty typical appeal
to the "conscious" consumer that will only look skin deep when making a
decision about products. It's a kind of slacktivism, wholefoods marketing team
tells me that they care about the environment and the small farmer so _surely_
buying from them is the most ethical consumption.

I believe it is misleading though. The company's only goal is profit and this
is very evident when you hear their libertarian CEO speak. He's a sociopath
preying on the good will of middle class liberals. Combine that with the
exploitation of cheap prison labour as a perfect example of the company's
principles in execution and it just leaves a bad taste with those seasonal
organic vegetables.

Edit: If you really want to get tasty, fresh, sustainable, local, and organic
food then join or start a local food co-operative. This gets everyone a fair
price for high quality products along with paying people fairly for their
produce and work. It's also completely democratic so all practices are decided
upon by the members and not just by some megalomanic CEO or greedy
shareholders.

~~~
jmcdiesel
A company's goal should be profit. Why is profit a bad word so often? They
aren't abusing customers or employees to get that profit... both of those
groups regularly praise the company... so I don't see the problem in seeking
as much profit as you can. Thats how free market works, right? And if they go
to far in the name of profit, they will see it reflected and profits drop...
on a site created around startups, its interesting that the "profit" as a bad
word is still a thing here...

You can want to make as much profit as possible while ALSO doing the right
thing ethically.

~~~
wpietri
> A company's goal should be profit.

No. You've confused means with purpose.

A company with investors has to make enough profit to give the investors a
fair return. And any company needs enough profit to reinvest in growth. But
profit alone isn't a sustaining motivation. One entrepreneur I know sold his
first company back in the 90s for >$100m. As he was working on his next
venture, he said, "Profit isn't the point. Profit is permission to continue."

The purpose of a company is generally to create value for a given audience in
particular ways, often ones that have a broader impact.

For example, the purpose of the New York Times is to inform readers about the
things that matter to them and to the world. They do that because they see
journalism as necessary to a healthy society, a healthy world.

If you approach the same audience and tools with a goal of pure profit, you
end up with things like supermarket tabloids, viral clickbait, and Macedonian
fake news farms. Those have a much higher ROI than real journalism; they're
going to be much more profitable. By your theory, they're better companies.
But they aren't.

~~~
sverige
>> One entrepreneur I know sold his first company back in the 90s for >$100m.
As he was working on his next venture, he said, "Profit isn't the point.
Profit is permission to continue."

Easy to say profit doesn't matter once you've cleared $100mm.

~~~
wpietri
Of course if I hadn't mentioned how well his previous business did, somebody
would have suggested the person knew nothing about business.

And since you missed it, let me be clear: he didn't say profit doesn't matter.
He said profit wasn't the point. His previous business was quite profitable,
but that's not why he did it.

------
yourapostasy
Most if not all WFM stores hold tours for customers to teach how to affordably
shop WFM. Ask about it.

The TL;DR is only buy fresh vegetables, single-item bulks, fruit, meats, and
seafood in descending order of volume/mass. The less processing and packaging,
the better as a rule of thumb. Round out very sparingly with exceptions.

This is how we should shop regardless of store. Mackey has publicly admitted
he vastly regrets taking WFM to Wall Street. I get the impression if most
customers shopped as described above, crushing profit margins, in the absence
of shareholder pressure to change WFM's real mission and cost him strategic
control, and the profits are self-sustained, he wouldn't mind.

I'd like to see more feedback from others on whether or not they noticed WFM's
efforts to broaden beyond just an organic label. They did try, and to a
smaller extent are still trying (meat stages are a prominent example), and are
trying not to antagonize regulatory stakeholders by pointing out the
mainstream organic label is deficient in many ways, but by and large it seems
most of their customer base is more concerned about labels than actually
delivering change.

~~~
RyanZAG
If you think of it as a 'guilt tax' it makes a lot more sense, and also the
direction these stores need to go to improve profits. It's never really been
about the food itself: it's been about selling a positive self image. It's a
reaction to the abundance of media showing modern chicken coops and mass
migrant vegetable labour.

Once you understand that, you understand why the label is the single most
important thing, and the less real details supplied the better. Any details
you supply serves to break the facade that the organic label means you're
doing good deeds - because ultimately, you're still killing that chicken. It's
why "efforts to broaden beyond just an organic label" are doomed before they
begin and will hurt sales more than they help.

~~~
ndespres
I disagree that the animal welfare labels are doing some kind of lip service
to animals, or paying a guilt tax. There is a big difference between a chicken
from a factory slaughterhouse, and a grass-fed truly free-ranging (outside)
one. When people come for a tour of my farm they get a better idea of what
it's about and why it costs more. Over time more people will be informed about
the origin of their food and why labels aren't just labels.

~~~
RyanZAG
If you show most of your customers a factory slaughterhouse chicken being
killed and packaged, or a grass-fed truly free-ranging chicken being taken
inside and killed and packaged, they will actually have a worse reaction to
the second one.

Most people cannot really identify with thousands of chickens in a cage being
processed by a machine - but they can identify with a single chicken happily
running around outside being taken and killed. So paradoxically, the second
image would actually be something they see as even more cruel.

Informing people about this has to be done in a very clever way to ensure that
people don't connect the packaged breast they buy with the actual chicken
running around outside. One slip up, and your label becomes worse than the
factory chickens.

While the people who choose to come for a farm tour likely know what to
expect, the 'average' consumer would not react in the same way to being told
that they're eating this happy, free ranging chicken. As with all marketing,
it's important to come from a position of your customer's lifestyle than your
own where you 'know' about death.

To put it in a completely different context - think about Target and their new
bathroom policy. On the surface it seems great, and everyone supports it. The
label is wonderful and everyone wants to be part of that movement. But when it
actually comes time to go to a bathroom, many women freak out and refuse to
actually enter that bathroom anymore. It's even costing Target customers, and
now pulling back the policy would cost them even more. Marketing isn't easy
and you need to fully understand what you're doing before you end up creating
a marketing campaign that actually harms your business.

------
Animats
Basic problem: "Organic" food production costs are not that much higher than
"inorganic" (?) food.[1] Maybe 10-20%. But the retail markups average 85%. As
organic farming has become larger and more efficient, Whole Foods' competitors
have cut prices, killing Whole Foods' margins.

Whole Foods relies on high-margin items. The checkout areas are stuffed with
homeopathic remedies, which are overpriced water. Now that's a markup.

[1] [https://attra.ncat.org/attra-
pub/download.php?id=419](https://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/download.php?id=419)

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
The link does not load for me but I doubt those numbers. Where I live
(Austria) organic farming is significantly more expensive primarily because it
requires more human labor. I suspect that depends on how tou regulate organic
vs non organic food however.

~~~
gajomi
I would be curious to hear a bit more about this. From my recollection, just
about every single piece of vegetable matter in any given Viennese Billa would
come from outside Austria (potatoes being the exception). Is there US style
industrial agriculture in Austria (I'm afraid I never ventured out of Wien and
surrounding Niederosterreich area)?

~~~
bosie
That depends on the season though, in summer almost everything seems to come
from austrian farms.

we don't have us style industrial agriculture in austria. our fields are tiny
compared to the US (avg farm size is 40 acres; and we really don't have those
superfarms [2000+ acres] that seem to be common in the US). same goes for
livestock, a farmer doesn't have anywhere near the same number of say kettle
on his/her farm.

~~~
Thlom
I drove through some farmlands in California on vacation a few years ago, and
the magnitude is astonishing. Never seen anything close in Europe.

~~~
tracker1
Driving between SF and Portland on the I-5 is definitely some impressive
sights in terms of farm land.

------
headShrinker
My perspective is maybe a little different from the rest of the country's. In
NYC all of the stores are really expensive and quality control is pretty bad.
Produce and product choices are limited and quality is absolutely terrible.
Whole Foods is actually one of the less expensive grocery stores. The quality
is easily the best in the neighborhood. The employees are noticeably nicer,
and I can pay with my phone. They do have some local suppliers, which
Gristedies doesn't. Lastly, and probably least important to everyone but it's
a pet-peeve of mine, the ice cream hasn't thawed and frozen in to a brick (a
common side-effect of living on an island, frozen things get melted).

~~~
galdosdi
Gristedes is a joke. Not sure why that's your go-to comparison.

Have you tried some more affordable "normal" supermarkets like Key Foods, C
Town, Western Beef, etc? You might still complain about quality (don't know
your standards), but you won't be complaining about price at least any more.

Trader Joe's is also fantastic (good quality, good deals on anything-but-
produce, get that from C Town instead), if you can bear the lines (the wait
time is not as bad as it looks) or just come in at an off-peak time.

~~~
guiseroom
Trader Joe's has terrible produce and meat with a short shelf life. Too many
times I've bought rice and boxed pasta that contain dead bugs that float to
the top when boiling.

~~~
Xunxi
The bugs are an indication of poor storage the rudimentary milling and
processing. Most likely a one or two step processing before it hit the
shelves.

Multi-stage milling usually get rid of that. If you're shopping organic you
should be happy about the bugs, unfortunately.

------
Spooky23
The bullshit parts about Whole Foods were bullshit a decade ago.

The difference is that their quality has declined and others are catching up.
The food bar was near restaurant quality in 2006, now it's slop at 3x the
cost. You also have to be careful about date labels, my local store will
relabel old inventory and add a few weeks to the sell by dare.

Also, Amazon impacts them harder because WF lost their monopoly on weird
organic product.

It's the typical big company story. They grew too fast. I'm sure the supply
chain is a shitshow.

~~~
rickdale
_my local store will relabel old inventory and add a few weeks to the sell by
dare_

Can you elaborate on this?

I totally agree with your other point that others are catching up and I think
they realized they don't need to have an entire organic store just certain key
items(grass fed beef, good produce to make everyone happy.

~~~
Spooky23
Perfect example: they sampled jalapeño Brie with some fancy cracker and fig
jam. I was shopping for a Christmas party and bought two of each. We used one
for the party. It was dated with a 2/28/17 sell by date.

The little cheese wheel was wrapped in plastic. Unwrap it, as I did last week,
and lo and behold, the date sticker under the plastic wrap says 12/21/16.

They play similar games with cut fruit and other stuff. I can get same or
better stuff at Hannaford for 1/3 the cost.

------
tptacek
* Whole Foods produce is bad. We get better produce at our local major grocery chain, and _much_ better at the Mexican grocery.

* Whole Foods bet big on prepared food; about 1/4 of our local Whole Foods is essentially a food court.

* Whole Foods has a sort of Trader Joe's phenomenon where the place is gradually filling up with house brand stuff. But unlike TJ's, WF's house brands aren't relabeled good outside brands; they're mostly pretty bad, and WF tends to carry them to the exclusion of any other product, so I can get 5 different kinds of chicken stock at a big chain grocer and just WF's house brand at WF.

Things Whole Foods in Chicagoland is better at than other grocers:

* Meat.

* Seasonal vegetables; no other grocer is going to carry ramps this May.

* Cheese.

* A decent house-brand olive oil.

I think that's it.

~~~
Gorbzel
Time for some local nits:

* Jewel's produce is fine, but as you note it's hard to find much of anything outside of the typical fruits and veggies. It's also highly dependent on the individual store.

* Mariano's is god-awful produce wise, so can't imagine that's what you're talking about. Which Mexican produce store?

* Coincidentally, I did this check very recently and can guarantee you that WF stocks 4-5 different brands of chicken stock.

But why does that matter? Ultimately, my research revealed the best
price/quality sweet spot for stock was Kirkland (shocker!). Which only proves
the point: single item (the TJ's approach) might be all the market really
demands. Now admittedly, if the 365 brand isn't quality, that's a problem.

Things you are right about:

* WF way over-invested in prepared foods, probably because the markup is so damn high. Problem is, as another poster noted, the quality used to be consistently pretty high, but is now closer to slop.

* Your list of what WF excels at...with one huge omission: bulk raw ingredients.

But again, same question. Going by the rule that the outside of the store
(fresh foods) is where you want to eat most of your food from anyway — if WF
is consistently better at the majority of what we should be buying, what's the
issue?

~~~
tptacek
We've more or less switched from WF produce to Pete's, a local commodity
grocery chain, and it puts WF to shame. I'm sure similar things are true in
other markets.

I think maybe the issue is that grocery stores don't make nearly as much on
produce as they do on prepared foods or even on house-brand packaged foods,
and it's pretty plain to see that Whole Foods optimized itself over the last
10 years for revenue maximization. Competition is an issue, but so is wedging
yourself into a local maxima.

Another thought is that grocery stores might be like drug stores in the sense
that they are in significant part a commercial real estate bet; the store is
really just a mechanism for extracting value from specific parcels of land.
One other major difference between WF and "big box" chains is that WF tends to
be smaller; it can't extract dollars from square feet by stocking them with
Frito Lay and Coca Cola products the way Krogers can.

------
tsunamifury
Whole Foods just opened a new store in North Berkeley that no one wanted, and
was in the midst of four! other natural grocery stores. They then had the gall
to offer almost entirely their 365 brand of subpar products, compared to the
very premium offers of their counterparts in the area. They are somewhat busy,
but never packed, as locals all prefer the far better offerings at
neighborhood locations.

As soon as they opened that store I realized someone at HQ was either clueless
or arrogantly thought theyd just move in and dominate. Looks like they are
getting their just desserts.

~~~
mrits
They don't have to initially dominate. They just have to outlast the other
stores.

------
Raed667
I don't understand why organic food is this expensive in the US in places like
WFM.

In France for example 'bio' tagged food is getting cheaper everyday, some
products are sometimes even cheaper than their counter-part.

~~~
briandear
Using France as an example, a liter of organic milk at my local Super U is
about €0.50 more expensive than the equivalent non-organic -- this is
comparing the Super U store brand -- which should eliminate "branding" markup
from the equation.

~~~
vidoc
What's funny is that the price difference between both countries is almost
anecdotal in the case of milk. You would probably have a heart attack if you
saw the price of cheese, and not only imported cheese, domestic 'artisanal'
cheese too. The prices are just borderline grotesque, they are so extreme that
they basically sell cheese pre-cut, in tiny tiny quantities. Most consumers
ignore the fact that different kinds of cheeses should be cut a certain way
for actual reasons and not out of sheer snobbism, consequently they sell them
the pointe and the talon at the same price, lol!

Can't resist: the other day we made a 3 cheese fondue for four and it costed
us close to a benjamin just in cheese at WF!

~~~
Raed667
If you can read some French here there is a price comparison table [0], some
'organic' food is even cheaper than its branded counter-part.

[0] [http://www.consoglobe.com/achat-bio-
cher-2846-cg](http://www.consoglobe.com/achat-bio-cher-2846-cg)

------
DiabloD3
So, where I live, we don't have things like Whole Foods and Sprouts. We have a
tiny little specialty store in town that carries a very small amount of
interesting, but expensive, organic and whatnot brands (but almost invariably,
not what I'm looking for, but they're always willing to order it and sell it
to me for far more than I can just order online for)....

I've seen people both worship and shit on Whole Foods, have seen Sprouts
described as a "Whole Foods that didn't sell its soul to Wall Street", and
I've heard Trader Joes described as "half a grocery store, so you can't do all
your shopping there, but its the half you want".

We have two national chains in town with big stores, a couple smaller quasi-
chains (IGA, etc), and a Super Walmart, so its not like its some out of the
place hole in the wall....

So, what's the draw of Whole Foods (and by extension, Sprouts and the other
clones)?

~~~
divbit
The draw imo is the following: you try to find e.g. a tortilla at 'average big
chain supermarket' without any hydrogenated oils, and it's going to take 20
minutes of reading ingredients, and even then maybe there just aren't any. At
Trader Joe- the standard tortilla (i.e. the trader joe brand tortilla) is made
of basically the same ingredients you would use if you made it at home, and
the price is reasonable. Whole foods is like a version of that, but rather
than having everything be 'whole foods' brand, it's a bunch of fancy hipster
brands. Sprouts is like that but with a very large selection of fruits and
vegetables of usually higher quality than you can find at your standard
grocery.

~~~
astrange
Whole Foods has a store brand (365) that's good quality for the price. You do
still have to shop carefully, because their idea of quality is more about
making you feel like you're saving the planet than health.

One thing that surprises me about living in SV is how downmarket Safeway is
here. I thought it would be like Publix in the South (nice, but not especially
nice) but mine sells nothing but corporate brands, carbs, more carbs and Bud
Light. People must like baked goods.

~~~
hamandcheese
Living in the south, I LOVE Publix. It's not much more expensive, but a much
more pleasant and clean experience than basically anywhere besides Whole Foods
(which has vastly fewer stores). I've never lived more than a short drive from
Publix.

------
kobeya
Well, why should I shop at Whole Foods when I can go to Sprouts (or some other
alternative) and get basically the same thing for almost regular/non-organic
prices?

Then again, the fine article says Sprouts et al are also hurting...

~~~
adventured
It appears Sprouts is suffering margin compression more than a sales hit.
They're generating about the same net income as they did in fiscal 2014, but
their sales are roughly 30% higher. If one believes in their long-term
trajectory, the stock is 50% off from the IPO in 2013.

~~~
someguydave
That's a shame, Sprouts is my family's primary grocery store.

------
anu7df
Lot of the comments talk about co-op as an alternative to whole foods. I live
in Houston Texas. Other than " There in lies the problem" can some suggest a
reasonable alternative for getting some good organic vegetables and fruits.
The farmers markets are usually honey, eggs and beef stalls. The co-ops I have
found usually are higher price per pound than whole foods. Traders Joe here
has limited selection of everything. HEB is OK but not many organic choices
for milk and meat. I understand this has nothing to do with the article. Are
there any good options for people in biggish cities away from southern
California. Gosh I miss those farmers markets..

~~~
tracker1
I tend to just shop at the different stores mostly depending on the main thing
I'm going for... one day may be mostly produce at sprouts.. another meat at
Basha's... another general groceries at Fry's... another mostly frozen/boxed
at WM superstore. I try to keep a few things on hand at all times, and will
shop at different stores for mainly the thing they are best at with differing
times/days.

I tend not to shop at multiple places on the same day, I just don't care for
shopping that much. If you have a good spot for your preferred milk/meat, just
get that there, get other stuff elsewhere. There's nothing that says you have
to buy everything on the same day/trip.

------
dota_fanatic
This is aside from the organic thing, but probably plays a part.

I've had two friends work there for over a year, one in the 90s and one in the
past couple of years, and in both cases, management was just grinding through
employees. The recent run ended when they cut employees and expanded duties
for the remaining folks (two or more jobs now in one), with no increase in pay
and no increase in technology at hand to justify the ability of one person
doing what used to take two in full-time shifts.

Yeahhh he quit soon after that. I tended to avoid WF in favor of Trader Joe's,
Sprouts, Natural Grocers, and straight from farmers, but after hearing how
they treat their employees, again, that's just one more reason not to give
them business...

------
socrates1998
I don't really shop there anymore other than the occasional thing that only
they have that I really want.

I am in South Florida and it's the most expensive grocery store by far, like
20-30% it feels like for almost the same items.

This is subjective for sure.

Publix Greenwise stores and brand has done a really good job of giving me what
I want for a lot cheaper.

Now, I feel like Whole foods has better quality, but it's just not worth the
almost ~30% premium I feel like I pay when I shop there.

Also, Trader Joe's just opened up here and that place is so much better.

Really, I don't want to pay that huge ass premium.

------
tedmiston
> Apart from shuttering stores and stalling expansion plans, the company is
> continuing to focus on 365 by Whole Foods, a two-year-old division aimed at
> launching stores for “value-conscious” consumers.

Without a doubt, generic organics is where we are going.

I don't often shop at Whole Foods because I can't get my whole list there for
a reasonable price compared to buying mostly a mix of organic and Simple Truth
at Kroger. It's not worth making a separate trip just for a few things. If WF
zoned in on this space more that could change things.

------
ravenstine
I stopped shopping there because the quality of both their produce and their
salad bar food plummeted a year ago. Their fruit isn't as fresh as it used to
be, and they now serve the same cheap slop at their salad/hot bar. There isn't
much variety anymore, either. These things are true of any Whole Foods in
SoCal I'd been visiting. I also question how well they treat their employees
since they all seem perpetually malcontented. Meanwhile, Trader Joes employees
continue to behave genuinely friendly and seem relatively happy. I even prefer
shopping at Sprouts which doesn't have as big a selection(aside from their
massive supplements section) but it's a less pretentious atmosphere and has
more reasonably priced produce that's actually fresh.

Millenials(pukes in own mouth for using said term) aren't as brand-loyal as
their parents were and are quick to ditch a brand when something better &
faster comes along. Just because they're "Whole Foods" doesn't mean that they
can stay complacent or start behaving like an average grocery store without
sudden consequences.

~~~
rwc
The staff "perpetual malcontent" is also a problem at my local Whole Foods,
and the thing that keeps me shopping elsewhere.

------
MengerSponge
Does nobody care about their institutional dishonesty? Defrauding customers is
good for short-term profits, but it might cause long-term issues.

[http://abcnews.go.com/Business/foods-accused-overcharging-
ex...](http://abcnews.go.com/Business/foods-accused-overcharging-exaggerating-
weight-packaged-foods-officials/story?id=32002573)

~~~
gumby
This seems to be part of the original company culture. Even back WF had only
two stores, the original downtown and the one on mo pac (mid 1980s) they got
in trouble with the attorney general for labeling conventional stuff as
organic and marking it up.

------
spike021
Whole Foods is pretty awful when it comes to pricing. Sure they can up-charge
for convenience, but when I'm out and about and want something like sliced up
mango spears, why should I be paying 10+ dollars for 1.5 or 2 mangos sliced
up? I could just get a couple for maybe 2 bucks at a regular grocery store and
just carry a knife with me to do it myself at that point.

~~~
noodle
You can apply that argument to basically any convenience or luxury.

The answer being, some want mangos and value their time and effort more than
the the difference in mango price and sliced mango price.

~~~
spike021
But in some circumstances it's not necessarily that the consumer is trying to
cut time and effort.

For instance, if I'm out and about doing stuff and happen to want some sliced
mango. It's not that I decided in advance not to buy bulk mangoes and slice
them at home, I just decided spur of the moment to get some.

Of course there are people who don't like slicing mangoes themselves, so for
added convenience they will buy pre-sliced mangoes and bring them home or
wherever specifically to eat them.

~~~
noodle
> But in some circumstances it's not necessarily that the consumer is trying
> to cut time and effort.

> I just decided spur of the moment to get some.

No, that's still cutting time and effort. Okay you want something spur of the
moment. Your option is to buy it and then go home and slice it, buy it pre-
sliced, or don't buy it at all. That is still a choice of convenience vs
payment. You're not being forced to buy the mango.

------
london888
Isn't one reason organic costs more that customers will pay more for it?

~~~
grigjd3
Yes. Also, see prices for "artisinal" cheeses.

------
philip1209
I'm surprised that the 365 concept does not have an in-house butcher. I think
it strongly strongly correlates with the quality of meat. I've seen many
friends go to Whole Foods just for fresh meat, then Trader Joes for everything
else.

------
patsplat
I stopped going to whole foods after getting food poisoning from a lunch
buffet plate that cost $18. They overcharge, and don't deliver the quality to
justify the markup.

[http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/blog/addressing-grocery-
weig...](http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/blog/addressing-grocery-weight-and-
pricing)

> "As has been reported in the media, our New York City stores were audited by
> the New York City Department of Consumer Affairs (DCA) for weights-and-
> measures errors, such as those that cause improper price labeling on some of
> the products that are produced, packaged and labeled in our stores."

------
I_am_neo
Personally, if I can help it I'll find a small dirty old corner of some
country side road veggie stand, for really fresh semi organic unprocessed
foods. And if also if I can help it, I won't shop some where with an IPO. I
just can not come to believe a process groomed to attract investment dollars
is even half way close to the goal of being some what good for society, any
part, any where in society

------
rodionos
I've been their loyal customer to the extent that I would try to book hotels
not too far from one of their stores when going on extended business trips,
say 1 week+. Because I tend to shop for the same items I also noticed that
prices have gone up substantially, sometimes 3-4 times over the last 10 years,
e.g. specialty teas. This is contrary to what's discussed in the article
(prices falling).

~~~
icantdrive55
In my store, they did lower the price of milk, eggs, flour, sugar, potatoes,
and their house brand of cheeses. They really did try to lower the prices of
some, some of the basics.

They do have a lost liter wine for $2.49 a bottle. They hide it. Forget the
name.

I despised Whole Foods for years. It was just like throwing away money. My
father couldn't even pass the stores--he would take a side road just to avoid
the parking lot, even when he had a tumor in his liver. My dad didn't
understand high prices, or throwing away money.

Anyways, a relative whom is too old to drive, had me take her there. She
bought all the expensive items because she could. I didn't buy anything, until
a few years ago; they really did lower the prices on certain foods.

(If anyone from corporate happens to read this--get rid of uniformed security.
Hire undercover on the stores with high customer theft. For what you charge, I
don't want to see security guards. While I'm at it get rid of the time clock
sensors the Janitors scan. The job is degrading enough, you don't need to
micromanage them. If I'm paying extra; treat all employees well. Yea, I do
notice.)

~~~
_JamesA_
> While I'm at it get rid of the time clock sensors the Janitors scan. The job
> is degrading enough, you don't need to micromanage them. If I'm paying
> extra; treat all employees well. Yea, I do notice.)

Those 'clock sensors' aka sweep logs [1] are for legal purposes. Slip and fall
claims are a major liability in the grocery industry.

[1]: [http://www.blanelaw.com/blog/sweep-logs-establishing-
notice-...](http://www.blanelaw.com/blog/sweep-logs-establishing-notice-of-a-
store-owner-on-a-ca-slip-fall-case.cfm)

------
33a
Could also be a broader sign the economy is struggling. People have less money
to blow on expensive groceries and are scaling back purchasing.

------
leovonl
Different perspective: I live in Canada, next to a Whole Foods (Unionville).

If you compare prices of organic food and quality, Whole Foods is better and
chair than any other place. Maybe downtown Toronto would be cheaper, but then
I won't travel 35km for groceries.

The only thing I really dislike is the lack of true organic meat selection
(only ABF) and they don't have things like lard.

------
yuhong
OT, but Whole Foods Code Of Business Conduct at
[http://s21.q4cdn.com/118642233/files/doc_downloads/governanc...](http://s21.q4cdn.com/118642233/files/doc_downloads/governance_documents/CodeofBusinessConduct-
Dec-7-2016.pdf) still have the approval requirements for postings.

------
ianai
It's not just about organic food. These sorts of stores cater to niches that
the larger chains do not.

~~~
vidoc
Exactly, and they also maintain a higher image of Quality/Luxury by not
carrying a lot of products you'd find in most normal stores likes Safeway or
similar (1).

1: Those stores that have carts that you can actually use to shop without
being a CEO.

------
appleiigs
Whole Foods is struggling... ok, that was the easy part. Now what can they do
about it? Most comments here are about their price. They can't race to the
bottom. If you were running the business, what would you do?

~~~
tracker1
Improve customer service in general, bring the food court options back to the
quality they apparently used to be at. People will pay uprate prices for
quality and service. WF has been slipping in these areas and that doesn't
match the value for the pricing.

Also, they expanded well beyond what is supported based on their pricing
demographic.

------
narrator
Organic food is vastly more popular now and thus Whole foods had more
competition from the likes of Walmart and Costco in the organic produce space.
This has driven margins down and that has cut into their profit margins.

------
Overtonwindow
A plastic bottle of water with a single asparagus in it labeled "asparagus
water" for $4.99. That's why Whole Foods is struggling. People are sick of
being screwed with by a corporation.

~~~
majewsky
How is that "being screwed"? It's not like you're being forced to buy this
particular item.

------
peter303
Our local Krogers has taken Whole Foods and Trader Joes head on offering a
broad line of oganic, vegetarian and vegan items. I'll go there for the price
and basics, then to TJ for variety.

------
mrfusion
Do you guys know of organic is worth it?

I guess if I could get a list of pesticides and herbicides I'm avoiding it
would bring me more value. Right now I have no idea if it's a gimmic or what.

------
EternalData
It would be ironic if mainstream commercialization of a movement led to the
utter dilution of its ideals into nothing more than a catchy, empty buzzword.

 _continues strolling around in a Che shirt_

------
Swizec
> Cummins pointed out that some of the most successful, most mainstream
> organic products don’t meet his organization’s strict definition of what
> organic should be. Those include the ubiquitous Earthbound Farms, which
> grows its lettuces in monocultures, and Aurora Organic Dairy, which has been
> criticized for running its operation like an industrial factory farm.

What is the point of "organic" if we don't even agree on what it means?
Perhaps some sort of governing agency should give it a strict legal
definition.

But that's probably in nobody's business interest ...

~~~
krrrh
The USDA does define a legal definition of "organic". When they started doing
this in the 90s it was very controversial in the health food community,
because up until then there were various private certifications. The worry was
that the USDA definition was a lowest common denominator and customers would
not recognize the value in the more strict private certifications.

~~~
torgoguys
I'm pretty sure that prior to the USDA stepping in, "organic" had no
regulatory definition and could be used pretty willy-nilly.

Now it has a definition, but I guess I am a contrarian. I find the organic
industry to be pretty much a scam. It promised healthier, better tasting food.
You can find studies showing that, but if you look at the totality of the
literature, you find out that it isn't inherently either of those things. It
is basically the naturalistic fallacy applied to the food industry on a wide-
scale.

~~~
jMyles
> but if you look at the totality of the literature, you find out that it
> isn't inherently either of those things

I haven't actually looked at the available lit in a year or so, but if this is
true, it's a huge change from the last time I did. My understanding is that
several very good, large studies had shown dramatic differences in organic vs
orthodox food.

~~~
torgoguys
I don't doubt you saw studies with conclusions like "50% more omega-3s."
Sounds good. The devil, unfortunately, is in the details. I can elaborate if
you want, but in an example such as this one, the amount of omega-3s went from
one insignificant, but measurable number to another insignificant, but
measurable number.

Or maybe you've seen reports on greater antioxidants or whatever. To make the
leap to healthier is actually a completely separate matter. (Side note--too
many antioxidants actually appears to interfere with your own cancer fighting
processes. It was believed that free radicals were evil in the body, but it
turns out they serve important functions too. As with most health news, things
are more nuanced than the headlines suggest).

While talking about nutrients, I should point out that there are other studies
showing conventional food have more of this or that nutrient. Those don't make
big headlines, nor should they. Again, the amounts we're talking about are
usually insignificant. The foods may be "different" in small ways, but
"better?" Nope.

I could go on and on (e.g., let's say the numbers are significant--does it
lead to better health in practice or is it a simple, possibly unjustified,
extrapolation from other studies on the component in question). I could talk
about dietary pesticides (99.99% that you consume are those produced by the
plant itself) or herbicides or whatever. Careful observation makes you less
trustful of the marketing hype.

Eating good food is important. Eat a reasonable amount of a variety of foods,
mostly plants. Process it appropriately, according to established guidelines.
That stuff is important. Organic? Probably not so much.

------
rojobuffalo
Have any of you guys looked into CSAs? It's basically a seasonal subscription
to products from individual local farms.

~~~
gregd
We've done numerous CSAs, even a bean CSA. The issue that we had with most
CSAs is that we didn't have choices in what vegetables we got. There were just
some vegetables in our house, that no matter how you cooked them, they just
wouldn't get eaten.

On the plus side though, you're exposed to a wide variety of stuff to choose
from and it can be a great way to get more veggies in your life and support
your local farmers.

~~~
rojobuffalo
Were the recipes not that good or was it more a lack of motivation to prepare
and eat all those vegetables? Would it make a difference if you knew which
varieties were coming ahead of time or is it more just a function of having
choice?

~~~
gregd
It wasn't the recipes, my wife is an awesome cook.

The lack of choice was just irritating. There are only so many ways you can
use garlic whistles.

~~~
rojobuffalo
They're pretty good for pickling and flame-grilling. I get your point though.
I'm actually hacking on an idea I had 2 days ago that I think might address
this issue of choice with CSA distributions.

~~~
gregd
I would be extremely interested in seeing what you come up with. Will it be on
terra.farm?

~~~
rojobuffalo
Yes it will. I'll let you know when I put out a prototype.

------
godzillabrennus
Competition has lowered the prices on the same goods and its killing their
business model.

Time for them to lower prices, increase automation to cut labor costs and end
employee benefits to be as competitive. Except of course they can't because
politically their customers want to feel good about shopping there. That would
vanish if the employees benefited less.

------
WalterBright
I don't shop at WF because the parking lot is too small, always full, and
there's just no place to park anywhere near it.

~~~
massysett
Same here. Used to live somewhat close to a Whole Foods in DC. It had a small
parking lot that filled in peak hours, and there was no other place to park
even if I paid. Of course the lot was half filled with cab drivers buying $10
worth of food, thus pushing out customers willing to fill a $200 cart. The
full lot and tiny carts showed this store was not set up for someone buying a
lot of food. I stopped going.

------
conorcleary
South Park? :)

------
Eerie
Kill your food before eating, then it won't struggle.

------
jsz0
Whole Food's prices went way past absurd. I can't afford too shop there
anymore unless I'm very careful about what I buy. Almost every single item is
40-50% more expensive. When I first started shopping there I feel like it was
closer to 15-20% more expensive which was acceptable. I don't care if $2.50
poor people grocery store PopTarts kill me 15 minutes sooner than the Whole
Foods bullshit whatever alternative. That's just fine. I'll give up my 15
minutes to save all that money.

~~~
jimmywanger
> Almost every single item is 40-50% more expensive.

This study begs to differ, and it was done 8 months ago. Regular produce is
about 20% more expensive, and meat is 50% more expensive, as it turns out.
[http://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-more-expensive-is-
wh...](http://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-more-expensive-is-whole-
foods-2016-6)

> I don't care if $2.50 poor people grocery store PopTarts kill me 15 minutes
> sooner than the Whole Foods bullshit whatever alternative.

The "Whole Foods bullshit whatever alternative" is making your own toast with
jam, which is orders of magnitude less expensive. If you're really concerned
about food budgets, processed foods are the worst possible thing you can buy.

~~~
djrogers
> The "Whole Foods bullshit whatever alternative" is making your own toast
> with jam

No, I'm not sure where you'd get that idea - WF sells several fancy organic
and overpriced 'toaster pastries'.

~~~
jimmywanger
Well, the next sentence explains.

Basically, if you are that badly off that spending 3 bucks for pop tarts is a
splurge, either that's the only thing you splurge on or you buy something more
economical.

With some hyperbole used, buying a pop tart or equivalent when you're poor is
like buying soda when you're poor. You either sacrifice for it, or you use
something cheaper that does roughly the same thing (water), or you go without.

------
Aloha
One of my friends nicknamed Whole Foods as "Whole Paycheck" \- its apt.

I was absolutely aghast at the prices at whole foods the first time I went in.
6 dollars for a gallon of milk, for example. I love the selection of Whole
Foods - I don't like the price however enough to shop there. When I need
something you'd typically find at the "organic" food store, I'm much more
likely to go find a local co-op type place, which while not much cheaper,
leaves me feeling a little better about myself when I'm done shopping.

~~~
bosie
I have never been to the US but is 6 dollars for a gallon of organic milk
considered a lot? What do you normally pay for it?

~~~
vidoc
That would be cheap for a gallon!

~~~
briandear
Agreed -- Europe has all sorts of government-sanctioned price fixing. If the
price of milk drops in France, the farmers starts to burn stuff and throw
rocks.

However, in the US, agriculture subsidies are less transparent. But then
again, in France, you get to pay high taxes AND pay higher prices.

The problem in France, from my perspective is that there is an obsession with
'saving farmers,' when many of them really ought to leave the market due to
inefficiencies.

You see similar dynamics in Korea with rice import quotas -- high consumer
prices for rice because rice farming has been a protected industry.

Henry Hazlit's "Economics in One Lesson" explains this idea pretty succinctly.
Essentially "protecting" the special interest harms the general interest, but
that harm isn't easily identified since your average consumer isn't protesting
higher milk prices but farmers often violently or vocally protest lower milk
prices.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_If the price of milk drops in France, the farmers starts to burn stuff and
throw rocks._

A year ago, taxi drivers were assaulting Uber drivers/passengers for similar
reasons. Apparently farmers do this too? Are large segments of French society
just a bunch of thugs who will engage in violence against society if they are
not given tribute?

Do the police not crack down and jail people, sending a message that this is
not to be tolerated? Is this a situation like Berkeley 2017, or the American
South around Jim Crow, where the rioters/terrorists are implicitly sanctioned
by the government?

This situation sounds really surprising from an American perspective and I'm
really curious what's going on.

~~~
vidoc
> Do the police not crack down and jail people, sending a message that this is
> not to be tolerated? Is this a situation like Berkeley 2017, or the American
> South around Jim Crow, where the rioters/terrorists are implicitly
> sanctioned by the government?

There's actually a branch of law enforcement named CRSs dedicated at this,
they do make arrests sometimes, but seldomly as they usually favor the baton
usage, which is an art they are very well known for.

Generally speaking, each protest is a war of opinion involving 3 participants:
the government, the protesters, and the rest of the population. The latter is
key as the way its sympathy swings usually designates the winner. It's usually
an equation including the level of justification claimed by the protesters,
how proportionate the law enforcement usage of force was, and of course the
level of violence used by the protesters. e.g: \- Too violent a crackdown
makes the government look bad \- Destructions of public infrastructures, or
vicious display of violence for the other side. Infiltration with
unidentifiable agent provocateurs is typical.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Terrorism as performance art, successfully gaining the sympathies of the
population (provided it isn't too extreme) and driving the government to give
the terrorists what they want?

This is the kind of thing I'd expect in Yemen or Somalia, not western Europe.

I think I'm shocked mainly because I never viewed the cultural differences
between the US and Europe as being this large. Admittedly I've only been to
France once; I suspect in the UK or Netherlands (places I'm more familiar
with) attitudes would be a lot closer to US.

~~~
vidoc
> Terrorism as performance art, successfully gaining the sympathies of the
> population (provided it isn't too extreme) and driving the government to
> give the terrorists what they want?

While the term 'terrorist' seems a bit connoted to me, there is indeed a sort
of bargain/blackmail dynamic in most protests and funnily the french
population routinely describes itself 'hostage' when the situation leads to
disturbance of public services or infrastructures.

> This is the kind of thing I'd expect in Yemen or Somalia, not western
> Europe.

Right, peaceful protesting in countries at war is probably not too frequent.
Although in the case of Somalia, protests must be kind of interesting since
there is essentially no government.

>I suspect in the UK or Netherlands (places I'm more familiar with) attitudes
would be a lot closer to US.

Absolutely, for tons of cultural and social reasons. Although I observe that
all the countries you listed did at times have violent rioting as well.

~~~
yummyfajitas
According to the dictionary, terrorists are people who engage in premeditated
violence to achieve political ends.

I know that the media doesn't usually use the term to describe left wing white
people [1], but I prefer to use the same term regardless of the ideology or
ethnicity of the terrorist.

[1] My favorite euphemism comes from TechCrunch: "illegal armed groups".
[https://techcrunch.com/2016/03/24/ubers-colombian-speed-
bump...](https://techcrunch.com/2016/03/24/ubers-colombian-speed-bumps/)

~~~
vidoc
> According to the dictionary, terrorists are people who engage in
> premeditated violence to achieve political ends.

Eh, good dictionaries usually have more than just a literal section for
definitions, something that covers the connotative meaning and it can actually
be useful sometimes :P

~~~
yummyfajitas
I'm aware that "terrorist" often connotes "islamic terrorist". I'm
deliberately pushing against this connotation - I don't think white people
should get a pass when they engage in similar actions.

~~~
vidoc
I think I see your point more clearly now. It's probably a matter of
interpretation as the connotation I had in mind wasn't the one your proposed,
but the idea we tend to imagine any form of terrorism as exercising violence
on innocent humans usually called victims. In this particular case, I was
thinking it didn't legitimate appropriate use of the term since we are
essentially talking burnt cars and beaten up cops.

------
robotjosh
I used to shop only at whole foods, happily paying $200 for 3 paper bags of
groceries. Then in 2009 their CEO spouted some libertarian crap how he was
against healthcare reform. I was shocked that whole foods wasn't run by
hippies. At that point I did some research and found that the 365 store brand
that claims to be organic actually just buys ingredients from china that china
claims is organic. Who is verifying it is genuinely organic, the crazy
libertarian CEO? I doubt it!

