

Ask HN: How do I find a team of 10-15 developers a project to work on? - kls

I need some advice, I have worked with a group of developers for going on 15 years. Along the way had two very successful exits, though none of the developers were equity holders.<p>Along the way we have evolved from a team that was primarily located in Orlando, FL to a team that became distributed across the US. We have pretty much become a ready made, distributed development team for a companies that need one.<p>The issue is we just can&#x27;t seem to capitalize on the fact that we are a team of senior devs ready to go, what ends up happening is one or two of us find a decent contract and slowly we pick up the other developers. When we  run across a really skilled developer that “gets it” they usually gravitate towards us and become part of the team so with every contract we seem to grow.<p>We have built some large high volume apps for IBM, Marriott and a host of other companies and we have amassed a lot of business knowledge in the travel, conference platforms,  higher education, k-12 and e-reader technologies. We have guys with a lot of experience mobile, Javascript based web apps and a host of back ends. Before this comes off sounding like a sales pitch, I would like to get to the point which  is that we are a group of developers in high demand markets, as well we posses high demand skill sets, but we just cant seem to parlay this into something more than just contract work.<p>My question is how would you parlay what is supposed to be the greatest assets in this market, “developers” into a lucrative arrangement, for all parties involved, that most importantly the team members enjoy? How would you go about getting a team of 10-15 developers &#x2F; QA &#x2F; dev ops &#x2F; and a hands on CTO into a project that they are passionate about, that supports them and has more skin to it than just a contract or job. I don&#x27;t even know how, I would go about marketing such an arrangement to someone with the idea and the capital, or find and existing company that needs such a team.
======
davismwfl
I have been in your shoes and it is how I started 2 consulting companies now.
We lost a number of people to two different product acquisitions and then
gained a few etc. Always a bit of an ebb and flow, but it has generally worked
well for me since 1999. BTW I am also in Florida.

It sounds to me as if you are missing the key ingredient to the mix, you need
marketing and business management/development of some sort. My bet is the team
as a whole has a good sized network to pull from, you just may lack the
experience and knowledge of using it to get deal flow.

Not that you asked, but for 10-15 guys, you need significant project flow to
keep everyone employed and happy at fair wages. It will equate to a bare
minimum of $140k or so per month in revenue, personally, I'd be more
comfortable near $200-210k as a minimum target for the whole team. If you
assume you take minimum agreements of $30k or so, you need roughly 5-7 new
deals a month to keep cash flow moving or work towards getting larger deals
but those generally take time. Additionally you have to see how the mix of
your team fits projects to see how that would work, e.g. you may have to
support a devops (just an example) person for a few months when there is
little devops work coming through.

If you want to chat I am in Central Florida too, happy to met up or chat via
email etc. We may have some complementary skills that would benefit both our
teams.

~~~
kls
It has usually taken the form of 1-3 large contracts but from time to time we
pick up smaller stuff. I would love to get together sometime if you would
like, I am always down for networking and it's easy to talk me into lunch. My
contact info is in my profile, feel free to ping me and we can set something
up. I can probably twist Hung's arm into a meal as well.

~~~
bazillion
I'd like to point out that if you want to head up the business development or
increase your skillset enough to get the ball rolling for solidifying your
team, you need to be more aggressive with your networking.

davismwfl lists his email in his profile and gave you an open invitation to
talk with him and especially soak up the knowledge that he has gained from
starting two consulting companies. In an instance like that, you want to be
the one contacting him, sussing out his schedule, giving him a few options for
when you could possibly meet, and following up with him consistently when you
get radio silence.

This is not meant to be an attack on your approach, but I read your response
as extremely passive (easy to talk me into lunch, probably twist Hung's arm),
and an aggressive approach where you actively engage an interested party is
what will lead you to succeed in that role.

I understand that taking on that role might not be your forte, so you might be
reluctant in fully embracing it. How I would approach it is by attacking the
problem head on so you don't have to bring in a business development person
who is a complete unknown within your group, and just trusting them to get the
job done. Go to local meetup groups, and maybe even meetups within a 2+ hour
radius. Troll craigslist for potential clients nationwide. Maybe even line up
a couple projects with a freelancing website just to get the ball rolling --
projects that make economic sense (being able to complete a project with 2-5
of your man-hours for 500-1000 dollars).

~~~
kls
You are correct, honestly Hung and I have played hot potato with the role and
I don't think either of us truly want the role. I first fell into it and then
as of late Hung has been more at the forefront but yes your perception is spot
on, neither of us are totally comfortable in the role. Hence the constant talk
about hiring for the position, but the reality is Hung and I pitch well when
we are in the door because we are technologist, we tried an arrangement with a
recruiter a while back and came to the conclusion that he just could not pitch
the technology at the level we can. But we deal at a very technical to
technical level, when we pitch to people that understand technology we always
walk away with a contract. When we pitch to people who do not have technical
staff we get locked into a rut where they are afraid to commit. We do not seem
to have the sales skills to move non-technical individuals out of this rut, we
don't know how to break out of this. I know it is due to not having the right
sales skills on the team, but we tried an individual with strong closing
skills but light on technical and that did not work out well.

~~~
davismwfl
bazillion hit on a couple of things I totally agree with.

One of the things I do is troll Craigslist off and on. We have a contract
right now valued around $90k from a single phone call to a poorly written
craigslist ad that I reached out to. Not bad for literally about 30 minutes of
a phone call and 90 minutes of discussions and negotiations.

No one will represent you the way you can if you are willing to learn some
skills, but sometimes you need the outside help. However, a little
mentoring/guidance can go a long way if you are willing.

In the end work will not find you guys until you have a niche and decent
reputation, and even then people who say they never look for clients I think
are not being totally honest. I met with one successful and smart guy who runs
a consultancy and he swears he never looks for work it "just finds him". Well,
that is sort of true but not really the whole truth or being totally honest.
Specifically in his case, he does a lot of tech training, writing and is
involved in a specific tech scene. So in the end he is doing a ton of
marketing and talking about his team and their abilities, he's just not out
cold calling or using a lot of traditional marketing.

Also, consulting can enter into feast or famine mode unless you designate
someone to keep deal flow moving. This isn't optional and can't be something
you do half hearted. It takes dedication, but it doesn't have to be sole
sucking shit work, it should be fun and be a lot about pre-sales and pre-
qualification of clients. It can even be something that is a shared duty but
it has to be dedicated time every week.

~~~
davismwfl
part of the pre-qualification is shutting down pre-sales when the client is
just sucking you dry for no benefit. The key is getting from talking to
action. Like I said, that can be pretty damn fast once you get some practice
at it and learn which key words to look for and how to direct the conversation
to decisions.

Developers many (maybe most) times get to wrapped up in the details of the
project and forget to close the deal first, leading the clients to "take
advantage" of you. We have all done it and still do it from time to time. It
is smart to use a pre-qualification interview of a few questions. You don't do
it in the "interview" style, but you get some qualifying questions in so you
can frame the project to see if it is even a decent match before you put too
much time into it. Budget and timeframe are the two critical keys to get out
in the open early, which generally prevents a huge portion of wasted time on
both sides. Not only that, it has let me refer leads to other shops/developers
that might be a better fit and then I will get a referral fee. Likewise, I
happily pay referral fees to others who send clients my way.

------
pan69
Genius, pitch your service disguised in a genuine question. :)

But in all seriousness, with the team you have, it sounds like you need a full
time business development person. Ideally that would be you but maybe this is
not part of your skill set. To feed those mouths you need revenue and getting
work through the door is a full time job.

A bizdev person can be expensive but the idea is that they pay for themselves
(easier said than done). Rather than hiring a full time bizdev, you could
instead try to build a network of bizdev people around you. They could receive
a bonus if x% for any lead that turns into a contact (again, easier said than
done).

Other thing that might work is to get into contact with recruiters (I know,
I'm out of a limb). You can let them know that you have a team of devs ready
to go that they can fall back on in case of emergencies or what ever.

~~~
kls
_Genius, pitch your service disguised in a genuine question. :)_

I know it's not out of the realm of possibility on HN and I do like that HN is
not adverse to shameless promotion but my first and foremost interest is in
the opinions of the group on how to parlay this into what the team wants. As
we just keep circling this subject, one of our big contracts is winding down
again so the subject has once again come to the forefront. All of us have no
doubt that we will replace the contract but no one is thrilled about the idea.
There is a deep desire to have some ownership or at least some long term
interest in a codebase.

 _Other thing that might work is to get into contact with recruiters (I know,
I 'm out of a limb). You can let them know that you have a team of devs ready
to go that they can fall back on in case of emergencies or what ever._

This has been the majority of our leads, we have about 4 recruiters that when
they see a pattern of hiring by a company tend to recommend getting in contact
with us, they of course take their margin of the top of the team but it is
less than standard recruiting arrangements. One of the things about us is that
money is equally split among the team. None of us take a cut off the top.

~~~
pan69
>> One of the things about us is that money is equally split among the team.
None of us take a cut off the top.

That's interesting. So, there is actually no money to grow the business? I.e.
profit that can be reinvested for growth? This might actually be the root
cause of your problem (although it's difficult to tell).

~~~
kls
No we don't really keep a fund as we are technically not a business. Some of
us have our own consultancy but the rate we negotiate per head goes directly
to each contributing member of the team.

------
rgovind
Who is the marketing guy among your team? It seems like you need a "CEO" who
knows how to talk and bring projects in. Plus it seems like you are good fit
for taking on outsourcing projects.

~~~
kls
We are missing that guy, we have talked about outright hiring that role
several times. Currently Hung and I kind of split that role, while the other
guys bring stuff to the table from time to time. We have done some outsourcing
projects but again, there is a desire in the group to have some ownership or
at least belonging to something more permanent than a 6 month to 1.5 year gig.

------
pitchandpivot
I would pitch this as outsourced technology team for sales / marketing
oriented entrepreneurs, startups and other companies without a dev team that
does not want to recruit, hire, train, manage. It's the opposed of sales and
marketing outsourcing, which we do, which is in demand and quite lucrative
when done correctly.

------
soboleiv
Checkout crunchbase.com - whenever somebody gets an investment there and you
like what they do that may be an opportunity to help them with their growth.

Just talking to people on your networks raises the chances of spotting a place
/ an idea how to find a one.

~~~
kls
That is a good idea, thanks for the suggestion. We try to network as much as
possible but it's rare we find people in the right place at the right time.

------
dropit_sphere
Stupid question: have you tried marketing? Do you have a site? Copy? An email
address? A pricing structure? A small profile on each team member?

(If you do, please post it here! Would love to see it, you guys sound cool).

~~~
kls
No and we have kicked this around several times, but it always ends up we fall
into contracts and the idea get's shelved again because we all get too busy.
We tend to rely just on our linked in profiles and send those, I can certainly
post our profiles if anyone is interested in seeing who the members are but we
have not embarked on marketing via a site or material partly because we don't
know what we are. We are certainly not a company, and we are not really a
headhunter outfit. But it is becoming apparent that we are a little more
organized than just a group of friends.

If you are interested in the bios of the team here are the profiles of some of
the main guys:

Myself:
[https://www.linkedin.com/in/kentonsmeltzer](https://www.linkedin.com/in/kentonsmeltzer)

Hung Chen: [https://www.linkedin.com/pub/hung-
chen/20/51/827](https://www.linkedin.com/pub/hung-chen/20/51/827)

Brian Posey:
[https://www.linkedin.com/in/btposey](https://www.linkedin.com/in/btposey)

Mike Dunn: [https://www.linkedin.com/pub/mike-
dunn/2/606/76](https://www.linkedin.com/pub/mike-dunn/2/606/76)

Tom Marra:
[https://www.linkedin.com/in/tmarra](https://www.linkedin.com/in/tmarra)

Roy Bowen: [https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roy-
bowen/2b/11a/328](https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roy-bowen/2b/11a/328)

Robert Allison:
[https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=16189839&authType=N...](https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=16189839&authType=NAME_SEARCH&authToken=XdrE&locale=en_US&trk=tyah2&trkInfo=idx%3A2-1-2%2CtarId%3A1425921978810%2Ctas%3Arober)

Robin Jacques: [https://www.linkedin.com/pub/robin-
jacques/3/b47/50b](https://www.linkedin.com/pub/robin-jacques/3/b47/50b)

Robert Marsicano:
[https://www.linkedin.com/in/marsaware](https://www.linkedin.com/in/marsaware)

There are a few more guys but that is a pretty good cut across many of the
guys that have worked together off and on for a while.

------
fsk
I thought the way it usually works is that the leader of the group gets hired
as CTO somewhere, and then brings the rest of the team with him as
subordinates?

~~~
kls
Yes this has been a pattern we have seen as well, but as the market has
shifted away from employees and more towards contract based employment we have
seen that dynamic shift some. Also as we have focused on being a distributed
team we have seen more contract based work. That is the piece we are all
missing is a longer term relationship with a company that we are more of a
permanent fixture with.

~~~
fsk
My employer has one contracting firm where they are the primary client.

They bought a 3rd party software package. It was poorly written and they
couldn't figure out how to get it to work. They looked at the comments in the
code, saw the author's name, hired him has a consultant, and he was able to
get it to work.

He has a good strategy for maximizing his team's job security. Use a heavily
obfuscated style, so now your client is dependent on you to keep their
business running. I can just barely maintain his code (I.e., it takes me a day
to do something that would take 15 minutes if it was written cleanly.).

------
petervandijck
Aim at fast growing startups that don't have strong tech teams. Be a tech team
in a box. Have someone in SanFran selling you as that. Take equity from each
client.

Your pitch is basically: you (the startup) have funding and product market
fit, but don't have a strong tech team. It's gonna take you 3-6 months to
build one. We can get you one today. You pay us market + equity.

------
alain94040
Have you checked out [http://www.teamedwith.com](http://www.teamedwith.com)? I
wanted to invest in them on AngelList, but the min syndicate was just a tad
too high for me.

~~~
chadkruse
GroupTalent
([https://grouptalent.com/welcome/](https://grouptalent.com/welcome/)) used to
be circling around a similar pain point (helping co's hire teams of developers
that have worked together in the past).

Haven't checked them out in a few years (not sure what to make of their
expired SSL cert), but I thought the model was interesting nonetheless.

~~~
kls
It's a good idea but I have to wonder what the potential market is, I don't
know of many other groups like ours, but then again it may be that our group
consumed the fledgling groups that we ran into that where similar.

------
CmonDev
_"...though none of the developers were equity holders..."_

Why?

~~~
kls
Young and inexperienced, at the time of the first wave aka the .com boom,
would be the main reason. I did have a little equity in the start-up that we
exited to Hotels.com on but honestly I did not know my value or the advantage
I hade in negotiations at the time. Knowledge like the stuff shared on HN was
locked away and not readily available so each member was going thru start-ups
on their own. The second reason would be that after that wave start-ups
started to centralize in the Vally so we see a lot less start-up opportunities
now. We do have a few guys out in the Vally but they are the younger guys that
we have worked with who took the older guys in our groups advices and headed
out there while their life situation allowed for it.

------
niche
Infosys, TCS, HCL etc

------
Yadi
Hey! This is an interesting topic! What kind of technologies you folks are
interested in & have worked around mostly?

I have few things in mind, but not sure how plausible it would be for your
team!

~~~
kls
I listed a few of them but it is standard modern technology stacks, a lot of
Angular, React, Ember, Node etc. we have a couple of guys that do Ruby on the
back end, a few that do Java and some .Net back end guys. Then there are some
of us like myself that dabble in the more niche stuff like Clojure and Lisp.

