
In Brooklyn, Uber is now bigger than taxis - lil_tee
http://toddwschneider.com/posts/analyzing-1-1-billion-nyc-taxi-and-uber-trips-with-a-vengeance/#update-2016
======
imagist
Brooklynite here. In theory, I want to be behind taxi drivers. They're a local
business owners with ties in the community, and I would rather support them
than a Silicon Valley startup with a questionable stance on privacy and poor
treatment of their workers.

In reality though, taxis need to fix a few issues:

1\. I don't need to be able to hail a cab anywhere--I can't really hail Ubers,
either. But if I call a cab, I'd like to have them show up within, say, 15
minutes. The reality is that the explicit promise given by dispatchers is
usually an hour, and after an hour, the taxi often doesn't show up. And if I
am in an inconvenient area, the time I _most_ need to call a cab, that
increases the chances of lateness or no-shows. This could be fixed by fining
taxis for lateness or no-shows.

2\. Auto-playing ads in taxis. The last thing I want after a long day is a
screen yelling at me about some TV show I would rather have a root canal than
watch. Unfortunately, it seems more likely that Uber will add ads than that
taxis will get rid of them, and I don't see a way to prevent this. Advertising
ruins everything.

3\. Taxis that will actually take you somewhere inconvenient without a fight.
When I lived in Flatbush, most cab rides started off with me having to
threaten to call 311 to get them to take me home.

4\. Racism. As a white person in a black neighborhood, I've watched black
people try to flag cabs and almost universally the cabs just drive past empty.
I've gotten in the habit of flagging cabs for black people, and even after the
cab stops, sometimes when they realize that it's a black person getting in the
cab instead of me, they drive off.

~~~
stuxnet79
> I've gotten in the habit of flagging cabs for black people, and even after
> the cab stops, sometimes when they realize that it's a black person getting
> in the cab instead of me, they drive off.

Good on you. This is terrible - I've never been to NYC but I always hear from
black people down there how difficult it is to flag a cab. Wasn't aware that
it was still happening to this extent in 2016. The fact that the cab stops and
then it drives away right after they find out it's not you entering is
disgusting. To be honest I'd rather they drive away than I give my hard earned
money to a person or corporation that clearly looks down on me and hates me to
such an extent that they are willing to NOT take my money. You say Uber offers
a solution to this - what is it? Meh, maybe I'm pessimistic but I don't
believe any company (not even AirBnb) can provide enough incentives to
mitigate this kind of stuff happening.

~~~
potatolicious
> _" You say Uber offers a solution to this - what is it?"_

Drivers don't get to pick and choose their fares, and canceling a fare after
assignment counts against the driver - do it too much and you get kicked off
Uber completely.

Uber does some _incredibly_ dodgy things, but on this front they are an
absolute and unalloyed improvement over the previous status quo.

------
jasonbarone
When I moved to New York a few years ago all it took was a handful of taxi
rides to figure out that Uber will eventually put them out of the business.
I've had drivers lie about not knowing where to go, intentionally take longer
routes, and lie about credit card machines while trying to get rides from New
York to Brooklyn, or Brooklyn to Brooklyn. To add insult to injury nearly
every single cab is filthy and smells horrible, while costing the same if not
more than an Uber ride.

There's just no comparison here.

~~~
ethanbond
Important point: while costing _to the customer_ the same, if not more. The
result? Uber operating at huge losses. The result of that? Well, austerity
measures. You can already see the signs of Uber starting to clamp down and
make their service worse and worse.

Recommended pickup locations -> No longer door to door?

Assigning next rides before the previous one has completed -> No longer
"feeling like a baller" while your driver is fielding calls from other
customers with you still in the car

Wait times have been getting demonstrably worse all over Manhattan, probably
elsewhere too

General quality of car/driver has been in decline since Uber started, in part
precisely _because_ of their putting cabs out of business. What's your cab
driver going to do when he decides it's not worth driving a cab anymore
because of Uber? Duh, work for Uber.

There's no comparison right now, but there will be soon.

I'm never going to use Uber again except for business travel due to their nice
tie-in with business accounts. Personal travel? Nope. In NYC I use Juno and
elsewhere I'll use Lyft, Hailo, or any number of local alternatives.

~~~
CPLX
I agree, Uber drivers seem to be getting progressively more clueless and
inexperienced. Last night I had one that would just stare at the moving map on
the GPS, without any situational awareness at all, up to the point where we
were down to about 15mph on an interstate highway while he tried to figure out
which of the tangle of exit ramps it wanted him to take, which was wildly
unsafe. It did occur to me that for all the frustration cab drivers
engendered, they did actually like know how to get from the major airport to
the major train station without getting confused and stopping in the middle of
the highway.

That is what it is, but the larger point I think it inspires, as does your
post, is that I can't see how Uber can possibly claim that it's going to be
able to generate some kind of monopoly profits from the whole endeavor.

Theoretically the whole point of all this insane fundraising and spending is
that Uber will, one day, be in some dominant and unassailable position, and
can raise prices. But that doesn't make any sense, they're increasingly making
it clear that they have a commodity product at best. How they plan to defend
that as a monopoly is a mystery.

And let's talk about self driving cars when there's at least one single car
somewhere in the world that actually can drive itself somewhere without a
driver present. Until that day, which is likely in the semi-distant future,
we're talking about the economics and practical effects of an app based car
and driver hailing service.

And lastly, it's probably worth noting the parent commenter posting multiple
times in this thread defending the company actually works for Uber, and has a
HN posting history almost entirely composed of defending the companies who pay
him:
[https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonbarone](https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonbarone)

~~~
bananabill
I've been noticing that too. When I was trying to go to Github Universe the
cab driver ended up taking a call from his kid's daycare, meanwhile driving me
to the wrong pier, stopping at a power station and asking if this was the
right place.

Also, every uber driver I had when visiting virginia would ask me how to get
where I wanted to go. I would have to tell them that I have no idea, and then
we'd get lost.

I guess I assume that these drivers would eventually get weeded out thanks to
the rating system, but since the system isn't anonymous, I think most people
rate 5 stars no matter what.

~~~
xapata
> isn't anonymous

They don't know who rated them what. All they know is their average over the
last 500 riders.

------
kylebgorman
So, for context, yellow taxis run "anywhere" but in practice, they are
somewhat rare anywhere but lower Manhattan and at the airports.

Green taxis, a new category, are only permitted to pick up hails outside of
lower Manhattan. They're useful for going between outer boroughs but are
reluctant or unwilling to take you to lower Manhattan because they can't pick
up a hail there.

There is also another, long-standing category known as "car service", where a
central dispatcher reached by phone sends you a towncar/minivan/SUV either at
a scheduled time (say, for an early flight or your regular work commute), or
as soon as possible. Like Uber, they may have an "account" for you so you
don't need to provide payment information to the driver, but nowadays many of
them have Stripe too. Prices are arguably better for airport rides than cabs.

I live in Central Brooklyn and my impression is that there are far more Uber
"U"s than any of the other categories, at least in my neighborhood.

~~~
kylebgorman
Oh and of course, "gyspy"/"jitney" cabs/vans, which are quasi-legal $2 bus
lines running bus routes in underserved communities.

------
MattRogish
Having lived in NYC pre-and-post Uber, the difference in Manhattan traffic is
astonishing.

Manhattan 2006: [http://www.shutterstock.com/video/clip-2475317-stock-
footage...](http://www.shutterstock.com/video/clip-2475317-stock-footage-new-
york-ny-circa-march-looking-down-a-manhattan-street-it-is-easy-to-see-why-the-
yellow.html)

Manhattan now(ish):
[http://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.12078243.1469201706!/ht...](http://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.12078243.1469201706!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_1280/image.jpg)

If you were to teleport a Manhattanite from 2006 to 2016 I think they'd be
shocked to see the large number of non-yellow cabs on NYC streets.

Regardless of how you feel about Uber-the-entity, the mark it's made on NYC
streets is undeniable.

~~~
agumonkey
The last picture strikes logo ideas. Good point Sir.

------
drzaiusapelord
I'd love to see a similiar study for Chicago. The cabs here are, at best,
customer hostile and at worst dangerous. My wife is sexually harassed by
drivers or is on the receiving end of political talk. Complaint calls go
ignored and every cab request is a like playing psycho whack-a-mole. One time
I had to walk out of my home with a weapon to make sure my wife was able to
get out of her cab safely as the driver kept pressuring her to get out a block
away and to be 'helped out.' Oh, the CPD couldn't care less about these kinds
of things.

Worse, there's a $1 'gas surcharge' for every single ride that was voted in a
few years back when gas prices got high. So, a 8 block ride in a Prius means I
have to pay an extra $1 in gas? Its incredible how corrupt the entire system
is, especially considering how the meters here run on both time and distance
and a tip is expected. What should be a $5 ride via a sharing service like
uber, turns out to be $10+ with tip and charges. That's on top of
inconveniences like loud auto-playing ads in the back of the taxi and
constantly being pressured to pay cash or with the driver's swipe account on
their personal cell phone (not sure if this is easily read by card reader
apps, but shortly after I do this I often have fraud warnings).

Thus far our uber rides have been pretty low stress and problem-free. Its
mostly younger people from the suburbs looking to make some extra cash. I
think driver screening and taking complaints seriously is something uber can
do to differentiate itself. I'd say a good 25% of cab drivers in the city have
serious mental health issues, if not are wanna-be criminals, and should not be
allowed behind the wheel. I think the narrative of safety is often ignored
with the cab vs uber debate, but its important to many.

------
bogomipz
Brooklyn has always been underserved by Taxis. Brooklyn has traditionally been
the domain of "black cars" which are premium private livery services. So this
isn't saying very much. Also he author states:

"October 12, 2015 marked the first day that Uber made more pickups in Brooklyn
than yellow and green taxis combined."

First of yellow cabs don't operate in Brooklyn, the only way to get a yellow
cab in Brooklyn is to happen to catch one who just finished dropping someone
off on a Manhattan to Brooklyn fare and happens to have his "on duty light
on." The will generally on put this light on if they aren't too far into
Brooklyn as they don't want to continue further in.

Yes there are geen "Boro cabs" that were introduced in 2013 but even these
underserve much of the outer boroughs so again this says less about Uber and
more about the Boro Taxis failings in Brooklyn. Source:

[http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/new-yorks-green-cabs-
stay...](http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/new-yorks-green-cabs-stay-close-
to-the-city-center/)

------
bananabill
I'm going to give my two anecdotal experiences that caused me to no longer
feel bad about using uber over taxis.

When I was in Miami, I decided to use a cab from the airport instead of an
uber, because the cab was already there. The seatbelts in the back seat didn't
work, which the driver assured me was legal in miami. It is legal, but
definitely not preferable. He drove me to my hotel, told me the price was 35
dollars, which seemed a little steep, so I checked the meter and found that he
hadn't run it. I guess he drove me to the hotel and thought to himself "That
felt like about 35 bucks".

When I took an uber from my hotel to the airport a few days later, it was 10
dollars, and the seatbelts worked fine.

The second one, just a few weeks ago, is only related to price. Richmond
airport taxi ride to short pump, 70 dollars. Uber from short pump back to the
airport? 30.

I understand that uber is operating at a loss, but that still makes it cheaper
for users, so just because it's likely going to cost more in the future, isn't
going to stop me from using it now.

~~~
jy1
Just a side note. Was the miami fare a flate rate? Many Airport to City routes
are flat rate without meter.

------
Tan__
As someone who lived in Manhattan and just moved to Brooklyn, I can totally
see why Uber is more popular than taxis.

For one it usually costs less. And two, depending on where you live there is
no guarantee a taxi is around the corner. Uber is more convenient.

~~~
Nav_Panel
> depending on where you live there is no guarantee a taxi is around the
> corner

Exactly. You go to a warehouse party in East Williamsburg and it's 5 AM and
feel like going home. The public transit situation in Brooklyn would make that
trip take a while (wait 20 minutes for the L, get off, wait 20 minutes for the
G, or alternatively wait an hour for the next bus). And what kind of yellow
cab is going to hang around an industrial district waiting for a fare? Uber
wins every time.

It's the density thing. The taxi model works well enough in Manhattan because
there are enough people around the hot spots to provide off-the-street fares.
A lot of things that work in Manhattan don't always transfer easily to the
lower-density reality of the rest of the city/country.

------
1024core
I don't know about Brooklyn, but when I was traveling in India, Uber was a
lifesaver.

In the past, you had to leave your dwelling to venture out into the streets,
looking for the auto-rickshaws ("tuk-tuk"s). Then you had to haggle with them
about the price (no one used a meter). Then, only if they felt like it was
worth it, they'd agree to take you there.

With uber, you tap the app and the ride appears outside your door. No haggling
about the fare. Since Uber pays them by the ride (and not the distance), it's
in their interest to get you to your destination faster. And my Uber app that
I installed in US worked flawlessly. All in all, it made taking taxis a
totally different experience.

------
turingbook
In China, Didi (acquired Uber China recently) drivers is more than ten times
as the taxis: 14 million vs. 1.35 million. It operates in more than 360
cities.

------
HoyaSaxa
Uber really doesn't have that great of a value proposition in NYC IMHO. While
Uber provides a huge value add in most markets via markedly lower rates and
the convenience of not finding a taxi, this is not the case in NYC. Drivers
still need to be licensed by the taxi commission so rides end up being more or
less the same cost all in with the 20% tip as a normal yellow cab. More
importantly, a cab is often the worst way to get from point a to point b in
Manhattan. The subway and/or the bikesharing program, Citi bike, are generally
the fastest ways to get around from 8AM to 8PM. Even if a cab/uber is going to
be your best option, cabs are generally always available within a minute or
two of waiting on any Manhattan corner while Ubers usually take 5-10 minutes
to arrive depending on traffic and the time of day. It really boils down to
population density. NYC is simply too dense to give Uber a logistical
advantage like the majority of its markets.

~~~
falsestprophet
"Uber really doesn't have that great of a value proposition in NYC IMHO."

Uber offers $5 shared rides anywhere in Manhattan during communing hours.

~~~
potatolicious
Which is only a value proposition if you're an agoraphobe - the trip takes
eons compared to the subway.

There was some good discussion on the NYC subreddit when Uber rolled this out,
and the general consensus was against it (including people who used it).
Manhattan traffic during rush hour is _awful_ \- a cab is already likely
slower than the train, even without the additional pooled passengers.

Add the pooled passengers and suddenly your commute becomes a full-hour affair
- and some users reported exactly this sort of duration just getting from the
UES to Midtown.

IMO the (genuine, deserved) popularity of ride-hailing around the US is less a
validation of that specific transportation model and more an indictment of our
utter failure to produce working mass transit. Where we have effective mass
transit (and the MTA isn't even that good) the value proposition of ride
hailing starts to fall apart. Ride-hailing is a local maxima, not a global
maxima of transportation.

~~~
falsestprophet
"Which is only a value proposition if you're an agoraphobe - the trip takes
eons compared to the subway."

There are parts of Manhattan that are not well served by the subway.

------
hackuser
Why should I care if Uber succeeds? I care if drivers succeed, whether taxi,
Uber, Lyft, bus, or otherwise. How are the drivers doing in NY? (I don't need
the Uber PR version.)

Uber goes out of its way to say it doesn't care about workers, my community,
or our rules. Why should I care about them?

------
madgar
Are there really only ~2x the green cabs in Brooklyn? They're everywhere in
Astoria/LIC in Queens - maybe because of the airports?

Edit: also worth noting that green cab drivers often drive for Uber/Lyft as
well. It makes a lot more sense for them since they're typically owner-
operators.

~~~
bogomipz
It's because Astoria/LIC has seen a large population density increase. Look at
all of the new high rises along the East River and Astoria because its
slightly cheaper because it doesn't have the cachet of Brooklyn.

It's also worth noting and evident on the map I linked to that when people
talk about Brooklyn in many contexts(uber, hipsters, nightlife etc.) they are
only ever talking about a small subset of Brooklyn which is strip generally
nearer river that extends from Greenpoint to Redhook. They are almost never
talking about the majority of Brooklyn - East New York, Dyker Heights,
Canarsie , the Flatlands etc. Brooklyn as the city's largest borough is huge.
Brooklyn is actually the 4th largest city in the U.S.

------
kchoudhu
Given the state of taxis in Brooklyn, a two year old with a tricycle is
probably bigger than taxis.

~~~
whatever_dude
This. This chart is not that relevant, even with green cabs. I'd be wary of
drawing conclusions from this data in regards to Brooklyn as a whole.

A more interesting comparison would be Uber to Gipsy/black cars. Those are
going down in droves as the drivers move on to Uber and Lyft. Not a big impact
for the drivers themselves, I suppose, but I've seen a lot of those little,
"local" black car telephone stations closing down. No point in calling someone
and waiting an indeterminate amount of time for a car when you can use an app
and see where the guy is.

That impact is probably just much harder to measure though since everything,
especially the payment, is a lot more informal.

~~~
thrownblown
I left BK in 2009 just before uber. I took black cars everywhere. I had a band
and we would book an SUV and get a Lincoln Navigator to drag our thrash metal
crusty tour equipment instead of driving our own van to local shows.

These small black car businesses were often very personable if you had an
account or even used the same number consistently to book drivers.

I know Uber hired theses sorts of companies to staff in the first few years. I
wonder if they realize that by doing that they put themselves out of business,
and how much of that capital has left the local economy.

------
wcummings
I use Uber when I occasionally take taxis in Boston, but I _never_ used in
NYC. It takes longer to hail an Uber and squint at a hunch of license plate
numbers in the dark looking for your driver than it does to hail a cab.
There's cabs everywhere.

------
douche
As somebody who lives in a suburban/ruralish area where cab service was
practically nonexistent (one or two cab companies, with maybe a half-dozen
vehicles total, to service an area of 100+ square miles), Uber has been a
godsend.

------
gjolund
Is this a surprise?

I feel like there has been a post like this on the front page of HN every day
for the past couple years.

------
sharemywin
I wouldn't give it long before there is a ridesharing tax

~~~
bogomipz
Agreed I imagine this will happen sooner than later. Taxis in New York City
actually have a "rush hour" surcharge of $4.50 from 4:00PM to 8:00PM on
weekdays.You will pay this for taking a taxi to the airport which is not
served by any single train line. Just another example of the city sticking it
to it's own citizen who already pay decent city tax.

~~~
vkou
What? Not served by any single train line? I've always taken the train to and
from JFK.

Also, airport-related taxes are disproportionately paid by visitors, rather
than residents.

~~~
bogomipz
In order to take the train to the airport you need to take the E train to
Jamaica station. From there you will need to exit the underground an go
upstairs and buy an $8 dollar ticket on AirTran. This is a separate purchase
and a separate train line. Your monthly card will not cover this "special
train."

I wasn't referring to airport-related taxes, I was referring to the taxi
surcharge to take a taxi to the airport during rush hours. Of course airport
related taxes are disproportionately paid by visitors. Its one of the most
visited places in the world. Why is that relevant?

~~~
vkou
AirTrain is also responsible for getting you around the terminals. You can't
expect the subway to have a stop at each terminal. $8 is steep, but it is
essentially an airport fee.

Who pays airport-related taxes is relevant to this conversation - you were
talking about residents getting tax-gouged when they had to go to the airport.

~~~
bogomipz
My comment was that there is "no single" train that takes you to the airport.
Which is 100% accurate as it is two completely separate trains and two
distinct payments and tickets with zero integration. The downvote is for what?
Being correct?

And while you can take two trains to get JFK you can take no trains to
LaGuardia. So yes a rush hour surcharge to take a taxi to the airport is
insulting.

You don't need a separate rail system to take you around Kennedy airport like
you do Dallas Fort Worth or Heathrow as its far more compact. A stop within
the airport and people movers would have been sufficient. And this proposal of
extending into the aiport was on the table at one point within the Port
Authority.

~~~
Symbiote
London Heathrow uses public railway for going between terminals, though there
are also buses.

The metro has three stations at the airport, and the national railway network
also has three. Using either system within the airport is free.

There are shuttle trains to travel _within_ terminal 5. I guess that shows how
huge the airport is.

------
AncoraImparo
Uber are terrible though. Here in Austin we voted and got rid of them. Fasten
is cheaper, has better service, and the app is way more complete.

~~~
EdHominem
Not even slightly true. If Uber was a worse experience you wouldn't have had
to vote to keep them out.

Besides, that vote was massively skewed by all the city's propaganda about
driver-rape which is less of an issue than choking on party balloons while
blowing out birthday candles.

