
Trump fires CEO of TVA over replacing US tech workers with H1B workers - rsj_hn
https://fox17.com/news/local/trump-fires-tennessee-valley-authority-chair-citing-hiring-of-foreign-workers
======
jedberg
I think the administration is solving the wrong problem here. If the TVA is
using H1B just to save money, then they are violating the H1B program.

The administration should be cracking down on H1B violations.

~~~
GenerocUsername
By firing violators are they not 'cracking down on abuse'?

~~~
jedberg
No, the CEO didn’t violate any rules. The American contractors he hired did.

~~~
one2know
I would think they are going to go after the contractors as well. Criminal
charges take more time. For example:

[https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/03/26/h-1b-prison-for-
visa-...](https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/03/26/h-1b-prison-for-visa-fraud-
in-case-involving-bay-area-workers/)

------
omarhaneef
Not going to take a side on the politics but I think every CEO would like
clarity on what the rules are. Is the policy not to higher H1B workers for
public entities? Let the government issue a clear policy and then hold people
accountable. It would be tough to run an organization and have to guess at
what is not countenanced.

~~~
bilbo0s
Is the problem not knowing the policy?

Or is the policy different depending on the political winds?

Two very different issues. If the policy is one way for one administration,
and different for another, you're still in trouble. In fact, the policy can be
one way for an administration, and then an election comes up and that
administration needs some political points.

~~~
omarhaneef
Well, if and when a new administration comes in, they can announce the new
policy and then you have to abide by it. The new administration ought not to
be able to punish you for the old policy.

My whole argument is premised on what ought to be. I don't disagree with you
on what the case may actually be.

------
gerbal
This is off the AP Newswire, here's the AP original with a bit more detail:
[https://apnews.com/0336437987fec77627c17ca9a4c781bc](https://apnews.com/0336437987fec77627c17ca9a4c781bc)

~~~
Whinner
According to the article linked, Trump wants the new CEO to make less than
$500k/year. Yet, according to this article from 2019, the CFO, COO, general
council & chief nuclear officer are all making well over that. Who the hell is
going to take the CEO job?
[https://www.timesfreepress.com/news/local/story/2019/nov/15/...](https://www.timesfreepress.com/news/local/story/2019/nov/15/tva-
pays-record-amounts-top-executives/508316/)

~~~
one2know
Are you kidding? Most people make $50k not $500k. Lots of existing CEO's don't
even make $500k.

~~~
learc83
They mean what qualified person is going to take that job. If you're qualified
to run a company that size, you can make much more than $500k.

~~~
true_religion
It is likely they will hire people who will only use the jobs as a stepping
stone to private industry. They will take the low pay of government to prove
their abilities, then jump to the private sector.

So long as it doesn’t become a revolving door project with workers influenced
by private companies by promises of future employment, then I think the whole
practice is fine.

~~~
learc83
>They will take the low pay of government to prove their abilities, then jump
to the private sector.

So the job of running a $10 billion dollar per year company that manages
nuclear power plants, hydroelectric dams, and supplies power to millions of
people is done by someone who hasn't yet proven they likely have the
capability to do so?

This isn't a summer internship at the State Department.

------
jeffreyrogers
Good. The TVA was created during the Great Depression to help the Tennessee
Valley region develop (at the time one of the poorest parts of the US).
Changes like this will help it get back to that original mission.

------
jariel
It's always interesting when unsavoury politics is mixed with the difficult
realities of such programs.

The neoliberal benefits of H1's make sense, but the context has to be clear.

I think it would also make sense if at least public agencies should be
required to employ Americans, because the H1 program is not supposed to be for
the purposes of 'saving money' and it's hard to fathom what kind of 'highly
specialised expertise' is needed in governmental IT operations. Perhaps on a
consultative basis.

If there are legit R&D needs, i.e. if they were designing new chips for NASA
or whatever, fair enough ... but most of this is pretty squarely in the domain
of 'off the shelf' IT work. Again - even then the benefits are possibly
positive 'on the whole' for the economy, if not for the workers who otherwise
did not get a job ... but it's public money ... I think it makes sense to hire
locally and I don't think for a second Americans would have a problem with
that.

Of all the things everyone likes to argue about (i.e. taxes, unemployment
benefits) - I suggest there would be at least some easy consensus here.

~~~
cosmie
> but it's public money ... I think it makes sense to hire locally and I don't
> think for a second Americans would have a problem with that.

TVA is a government owned corporation, but it's fully self funded. So they're
not spending public money other than insofar as TVA costs get passed to the
electric bills of anyone whose local electric utility is purchasing
electricity from TVA.

TVA has over 10k active employees and has only ever had 10 H1B employees (all
hired between 2001 - 2008)[1]. And all of their H1B hires fell into either
electrical engineering or product/financial risk analysis, and all located
within Nashville, TN or Chattanooga, TN. Their usage of H1B employees seems
far more indicative of localized hiring difficulty, rather than some pattern
of H1B abuse. I've lived in both of those places, and they both have risen in
popularity and desirability throughout the last decade. Having hired in
Nashville before, people have become far more willing to relocate to Tennessee
over the last few years. But that doesn't mean their was similar interest in
relocating to TN for work 12-19 years ago when they filled these roles with
H1B hires.

[1]
[https://h1bsalary.online/index.php?searchtext=TENNESSEE+VALL...](https://h1bsalary.online/index.php?searchtext=TENNESSEE+VALLEY+AUTHORITY&year=&minsalary=&state=&worksite_city=&job_title=)

~~~
jariel
So that's a great point, it seems this is a bad application of crude politics,
that said, in general I still believe my points stand. It would be nice to
have more specificity and clarity on the issues as opposed to the arbitrary
attention of the Tweeter in Chief on the campaign trail.

~~~
cosmie
For sure! H1B as a whole tends to be abused, and your points are completely
valid ones in general.

And my comment was about TVA's direct use of the H1B program - not use of an
IT contractor that is _likely_ to be (ab)using the H1B program to staff the
roles. That said, the IT contractors TVA is using for their IT outsourcing are
used all over the federal government, even if through layers of
subcontracting. So it's a bit frustrating that a TV ad triggered such a
reactionary response from Trump in this isolated case but not in any other.

------
whoisjuan
All this bullshit over 10 positions, the last one filed on 2008 (12 years ago)
and the first one filed on 2001? And for specialized jobs nonetheless.

[https://h1bsalary.online/index.php?searchtext=Tennessee+Vall...](https://h1bsalary.online/index.php?searchtext=Tennessee+Valley+Authority&year=&minsalary=&state=&worksite_city=&job_title=)

He fired the first poor bastard he found to rile up his base on the idea that
he is protecting American jobs. This is not only absolutely stupid and
unjustified. It also shows how petty are politics in this country.

~~~
mc32
Even if it’s only ten. SFSU fired it’s IT team and contracted out the whole
lot a few years back. The IT team consisted of a variety of backgrounds in SF.
Little moves like that are the cracks that bring down the quality of life for
locals —the main beneficiaries being the uni administration team.

I am glad for every move that makes sense that doesn’t undermine the stability
of jobs for local workers who pay their fair share of taxes and add vitality
to the local economy.

~~~
belltaco
H1B workers and their employers pay all taxes, including things like SSA and
Medicare FICA taxes that they may never get to use. They also pay a lot of
extra fees that US employees don't, some of which are allocated to training US
workers.

~~~
mc32
But why should US workers suffer this? Should Ford Mexico import Salvadoran
workers to displace Mexican workers if it’s cheaper?

~~~
belltaco
Because this
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy)

------
kevin_thibedeau
Somebody needs to tell him about the shit Disney tried to pull.

~~~
chrisco255
The TVA is federally owned. Disney is not.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Wannabe dictators won't let these small details get in the way.

~~~
chrisco255
Was it dictatorial when FDR set up the TVA in the first place, placing a huge
chunk of the South's power grid under federal control?

------
leetrout
Wow look at the misdirection in TVAs statement:

All TVA employees are U.S. based citizens. All jobs related to TVA’s
Information Technology department must be performed in the U.S. by individuals
who may legally work in this country.

So all _employees_ are citizens. All _jobs_ (hello contractors) are by
authorized individuals in the US.

------
I90Runner
[https://h1bsalary.online/index.php?searchtext=TENNESSEE+VALL...](https://h1bsalary.online/index.php?searchtext=TENNESSEE+VALLEY+AUTHORITY)
.. Looks like they don't have any latest hiring on H1B.

------
tibbydudeza
It is easier to fire people of some federal agency that nobody knew about than
tackling a serious health crisis.

------
ianlevesque
Well, that was the easy part. Where's the funding going to come from to pay
domestic workers?

~~~
zaroth
It’s illegal to pay H1Bs less than the prevailing wage.

~~~
phnofive
Loopholes aside, what possible motivation could an employer have for bringing
in an H1B than lower cost? The H1B worker is beholden to the employer and the
increased supply of labor would necessarily decrease scarcity of that skill.

~~~
amf12
> what possible motivation could an employer have for bringing in an H1B than
> lower cost

Skills for one. The way H1B was really meant to be used. I am not arguing TVA
did this. But there ARE reasons to hire H1B workers other than cost. Case in
point Google, Microsoft, Amazon, etc.

~~~
zaroth
This is exactly the stated purpose--and indeed the legal requirement--of H1B
visas, to gain access to uniquely skilled workers that are not available
through the local workforce.

It's supposed to be an essentially merit-based path to immigration, and if
true, that would make it exactly the kind of program that Trump should 100%
support.

To the extent that H1B accomplishes this objective of highly skilled labor at
prevailing market wages, I think it's a useful program that has a place in the
overall immigration system.

From a macroeconomic view, even when limited to bringing in skilled labor to
fulfill a specific market shortage, this will still depress the prevailing
wage in that market, which theoretically prevents the market from correcting
when rising wages induce increased local supply.

Fundamentally something is broken with the wage market when real wages have
not grown in decades. Partially this is a problem with the measurement not
correctly accounting for significantly increased cost of [healthcare] benefits
covered by the employer share. But I believe even when accounting for the full
employer-side cost of wages, this number has not grown as expected, and low-
wage work visas are part of the problem.

------
I90Runner
you can do research on companies hiring h1b employees and salaries here. You
can see some of the outsourcing companies paying very low.
[https://h1bsalary.online/](https://h1bsalary.online/)

------
ascales
While getting some US developers back on the job might be a good thing, taking
steps to dismantle a government chartered public utility is not. This isn't
about the 10 H1-B visas, this is low hanging political fruit that Trump will
use to attempt privatization of the TVA.

~~~
dpoochieni
Thanks for sharing the President's thoughts.

------
moomin
Now make it unprofitable for the Trump Organisation to do the same thing and
we’ll talk.

~~~
yesplorer
Trump Organization is private, the TVA isn't.

~~~
moomin
So government workers are more important than people working for private
companies?

~~~
Alupis
US Government workers receiving a salary paid for by US Citizen's Tax
Dollars...

~~~
moomin
So the H1B deal saved the US taxpayer money and that’s a bad thing?

~~~
Alupis
At the cost of laying off US Taxpayers who had the job previously.

Yes, that's a bad thing when the business owner is the United States Federal
Government.

~~~
moomin
The H1B people pay US tax as well, though, right? So there's still savings.

------
imglorp
It's okay to hire illegals though, so you don't have that pesky H1B paperwork.
Trump properties are doing this now, not a decade ago.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/us/undocumented-
housekeep...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/us/undocumented-housekeeper-
trump-golf-bedminster.html)

__ edit__ if someone's downvoting, maybe they could come out and indicate if
(a) you can't detect sarcasm, (b) you approve of hiring illegals, or (c) you
think Trump should be allowed to break the law while grandstanding on an old
H1 question?

------
fabian2k
From the AP report on this
([https://apnews.com/0336437987fec77627c17ca9a4c781bc](https://apnews.com/0336437987fec77627c17ca9a4c781bc))

> Trump acknowledged that he was made aware of the issue after seeing a
> television ad produced by U.S. Tech Workers, a nonprofit that wants to limit
> visas given to foreign technology workers, that aired in prime time on Fox
> News.

It does seem truly scary that by far the easiest way to get the US president
to do something is to put an ad on Fox News. If you can package your cause
into one of his pet topics, you have a good chance of something getting done.
A US president that is so easily manipulated is terrifying.

~~~
jaywalk
Yes, of course. Obviously the President of the US should have already been
aware of the hiring practices of contractors at some regional utility
provider.

~~~
hundchenkatze
I don't think the person you're replying to was implying the President should
already be aware of the issues. Rather, that it's concerning that the best way
to convince him to do anything is through a TV ad instead of a more
appropriate means of communication.

~~~
jaywalk
Who cares how he learned about it? The President has hundreds, probably
thousands of people asking him for stuff every day. He has teams of people who
filter requests through the "appropriate means of communication."

Seriously, it's irrelevant. When he learned of a federally-controlled entity
working against the best interests of Americans, he took action. That's really
all that matters. I don't care if he saw a TV ad, a billboard, or any other
unconventional means of communication with the US President.

