
How to parent more predictably (2018) - wheresvic1
https://www.jefftk.com/p/how-to-parent-more-predictably
======
zubspace
There are a few things which helped me get better at parenting:

* Timeouts rarely work. Try to respond with something which makes sense. Like if your kid throws around things, they need to clean up (with your help).

* If things get out of hand, I stay with or hold my kid until the situation gets better and then discuss/explain the current situation and how we will act next time.

* It's always good to figure out how your kid feels in a bad situation. Like: "I guess you're feeling <a>, because of <b>?" Sometimes kids do not understand their own feelings and telling them helps them cope better.

* Try to stay calm, always. Sometimes it's hard or even impossible. But getting loud or angry never helps. If I can keep control of myself I usually can control the situation and respond appropriately.

* Your job as a parent is to provide your kid with all necessities of life and with love. Everything else is extra, like toys, sweets, leisure activities. Sometimes it helps to tune down the extras if necessary.

* Admit your errors and say sorry if appropriate.

There's a youtube channel which I actually enjoyed while my youngest one was a
bit smaller. It's a bit strange to look for help on parenting stuff on
youtube, but a lot of his advice was actually quite good I tought:
[https://www.youtube.com/user/LiveOnPurposeTV/featured](https://www.youtube.com/user/LiveOnPurposeTV/featured)

~~~
JshWright
I don't think the two options you present in your first point are mutually
exclusive. Cleaning up the mess is not a "consequence", it is simply the
expected behavior. Failing to clean up the mess is what results in the
timeout. We frequently use "timeout until you clean up the mess". The
consequence ends as soon as the appropriate behavior starts.

A timeout can also a good way to allow emotions to cool (on both sides) and
facilitate a better discussion. Each of my kids tends to "lose it" in a
different direction (anxiety, sadness/crying, anger), and it's definitely
important to support them as they work on getting their emotions back under
control. This is going to look different for every kid though. My daughter
needs space, one of my sons needs physical contact, the other needs a lot of
verbal reassurance. It's important to help them find the ways they can work
through their "big feelings" in a healthy way.

Your last point is critical. My father had a lot of strengths as a parent, but
one thing I _never_ saw him do was apologize (not to me, not to my siblings,
not to my mother). It's one thing I have really focused on "doing better"
(something my father frequently encouraged me to do)

~~~
zubspace
The way you describe a timeout makes sense. There can only be a meaningful
interaction among both parties when emotions are under control. I also tell my
kid to take a minute off and calm down first if necessary.

There was a german parenting TV show a few years ago where the host repeatedly
made children of various parents sit somewhere alone until they cooled off.
This is the first thing I thought of when cooldown was mentioned. It's somehow
easier to be consistent that way: Yelling, hitting, swearing, whatever. The
child will know what will happen next and hopefully avoid it.

But cooldown alone stops making sense, when it is used for everything. I think
it's better to respond with a consequential task which makes sense according
to the cause. Even though it is harder to find and follow through sometimes.

~~~
JshWright
I think there are two major categories of situations where a correction is
needed. Times when an excepted behavior is not taking place ("Clean up that
mess") and times when an unacceptable behavior has already taken place
(Sibling A hit Sibling B).

In the first case, emotions may not be that high to start out with (and my
never get that high). The timeout is a "self-inflicted" punishment that lasts
until they do what's expected of them. There are certainly times when the "Do
a thing!"/"No!" loop has spiraled out of control, and in that case the timeout
first serves as a cooldown, then a conversation can take place laying out the
expectations more clearly.

In the second case, tempers have generally already flared. There is generally
an action that needs to take place in the short term ("Apologize to your
brother"), and there generally needs to be some sort of punitive consequence.
In that case the timeout a) gives tempers a chance to cool, and b) serves the
same self-inflicted punishment as before ("You're going to be in timeout until
you apologize to your brother"). The other (major) benefit is that it buys
time for me to decide on an appropriate punishment outside the heat of the
moment.

> There was a german parenting TV show a few years ago where the host
> repeatedly made children of various parents sit somewhere alone until they
> cooled off.

I'm not a huge fan of being "alone" as a punishment. For me the concept of
"timeout" and "alone" are two separate things. There may indeed be times when
being alone is what the kid needs to cool down before they can talk (my
daughter is absolutely this way), but I think it's important for that to be
their choice (and it's equally important for them know it (can be) an
acceptable and healthy choice). For other kids (like both of my boys) being
alone is just going to work them up more. I generally spend the first few
minutes of a timeout sitting right next to them (or with them on my lap) until
they have been able to calm down and we can have a conversation.

It's probably also important to note that we're all just talking about the
"ideal" here. I'm sure none of us meet our own ideals as consistently as we'd
like...

~~~
burfog
I've always been bothered by the "Apologize to your brother" idea.

In general, it is totally fake, and everybody knows this. I'd rather not
encourage dishonesty. Granted, dishonesty may be a useful skill, but I think
kids can figure it out without parental encouragement.

~~~
JshWright
It establishes the expected behavior. You're absolutely right that it doesn't
teach sincerity, but that's not the point. It builds the habit, and it forces
acknowledgement that another party was harmed (even if they lack the empathy
to care about that yet, empathy starts with awareness).

Sincerity is largely learned by example. It's important for parents to model
sincere apologies when they screw up. To each other, to their kids, etc.

------
dkarl
One thing I think my parents did right was never telling me in the heat of the
moment how I would be punished. I knew how I was supposed to behave, and they
let me know when I was not living up to the standard, but if they decided to
punish me, I wouldn't find out right away what my punishment would be. The
only exception was trivial punishments like being sent to my room or having
something taken away for a few hours, or if the behavior problem was ongoing
and they had time away from me to talk between themselves and decide what
would be appropriate to threaten me with.

This accomplished two things. First, they never had to back down on a
punishment, because they were careful to only threaten me with things they
could stand behind. That meant I never felt any urge to misbehave to call
their bluff. Proving parents wrong is irresistible to kids, so if you threaten
a punishment you can't follow through on, you've just given them a reason to
do the thing you're told them not to. Even if you punish them in another way,
it's worth it just to prove you wouldn't do what you said.

Second, it forced me to actively imagine what an appropriate punishment would
be. To get into their heads and imagine how they would punish me, I had to
think about why my behavior was wrong from their point of view. Kids spend a
lot of time arguing _against_ their parents, in their heads as well as out
loud, and I think many kids don't have enough occasion to go through the
opposite process of thinking _with_ their parents to try to predict their
behavior.

~~~
winchling
The cold, hard truth I came to realise about punishment is that it's
inevitable. Even parents who 'don't punish' actually do punish: they withdraw
emotionally.

But the corollary of this is that the closer and happier the family is, the
lighter the punishments need ever be. For some children even the _idea_ that
they're being officially punished is punishment enough.

~~~
Ma8ee
I’m one of those parents that “don’t punish”. I do tell my child when he makes
me angry or sad, and of course it is clear to him that I might not want to,
say, play or read to him at that point. I still wouldn’t call that punishing
him, but rather a consequence of his actions.

~~~
throwaway713
> I still wouldn’t call that punishing him, but rather a consequence of his
> actions.

Weird aside, but sometimes when my wife and I have a conflict, I may go for a
walk to clear my head, and I’m typically not interested in being intimate for
a while after the conflict. She refers to this as "punishment", which seems
like an odd way to describe me needing some space for a bit.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Wouldn't you class withdrawal of affection as punishment?

In psych terms it's a negative punishment (something was removed to seeks to
reduce a behaviour). Your motivation might be different but the felt action is
identical.

~~~
Ma8ee
The motivation makes a difference. If my wife think I'm intentionally
punishing her she'll react differently than if she thinks that I don't want to
be affectionate because I feel hurt or angry.

------
acjohnson55
One of my best tools with my toddler is "don't react, respond". My first
thought is rarely my best thought, and my reactionary tone of voice is not my
most loving and supportive. A kid doesn't need your immediate answer to
everything. You can tell them, "let me think about that" and literally take
the time to consider your options. Almost nothing is an emergency situation
requiring your elevated tone of voice or physically rushing towards them.

Another tip is that if you see your kid either doing or about to do something
you don't approve of, you can slowly close the physical distance so that you
can intervene in a non-reactionary way.

Lastly, when it comes to predictability, I totally agree with the author. But
don't be too hard on yourself. You're going to establish all sorts of bad
patterns. Just establish the new pattern, suffer through the couple days of
reaction to change, and move forward. My toddler is much better at adopting
new normals than I am.

A lot of this I learned from being a classroom teacher and also from listening
to Janet Lansbury's podcast ([https://www.janetlansbury.com/podcast-
audio/](https://www.janetlansbury.com/podcast-audio/)).

~~~
ip26
Is there something fundamentally wrong with rushing towards them & elevating
your voice? It's not an emergency per se, but when our toddler stands up &
teeters unwittingly towards the edge of our bed, or ventures to stairs
unallowed, or almost snares a knife or hot mug on the counter, etc, it seems
appropriate. Those circumstances are of course best avoided ahead of time but
no one is perfect.

~~~
wahern
When my little boy was a toddler (maybe 1.5?) he was curious about a pot of
water I was boiling. I was holding him and he leaned over to put his finger in
it. My first reaction was to pull him away and shout, "No". Instead I decided
to calmly explain to him that it was hot and he shouldn't touch it. He still
wanted to put his finger in it.

Well, it wasn't yet boiling and I was holding him and could pull him away, so
I let him gingerly put a finger into the water. He cried, we washed his finger
in cold water, and a few minutes later all was well. Since then I've never,
ever had to worry about him near anything hot, even as a toddler. And more
generally when I tell him something is dangerous he internalizes it well--
doesn't mean he won't refrain from something, though. Maybe the carefulness is
more likely a coincidence or his nature, but the lesson about hot things
burned into his consciousness.

It's obvious in retrospect, but I guess a parents job isn't to prevent their
kid from hurting themselves, it's to make sure that when they hurt themselves
only the lesson is lasting. More recently it's become evident to me that not
only do they need to hurt themselves to learn, but it's important to make it a
positive experience, the pain notwithstanding. For example, now whenever
toddler #2 falls down on the pavement my refrain is "good fall!", and I
imitate dusting my hands off. I'll keep my distance unless it looks like she
needs help getting up or consoling, but try to do it calmly and positively.
Now, a couple of months into it, whenever she falls she jumps up, smiles, and
brushes her hands, even if she's scraped. I did something like this with her
brother but never so deliberately and consistently.

Somewhat relatedly: I think it depends on the kid and the family, but neither
of my kids respond well to loud voices, no matter if well meaning or urgent.
It was frustrating for me to change my habits because when I was growing up
elevated voices weren't negative, just a signal to pay attention. Maybe it's
genetic or maybe just how their mother has habituated them, but if I elevate
my voice they invariably take it negatively. They seem to pay attention better
and react more positively if I modulate my voice. Being conscientious about my
voice also causes me to think twice about how I respond, even in imminent
situations like you describe. Unless there's a risk of permanent brain injury
or mutilation (at home, at least, usually self-evident), I try to tell myself
to stop and slow down and consider whether I should just let nature take its
course. It's worth the risk. That is, most of the time it's worth the risk to
wait a second to consider the situation rather than just reacting, and if you
do react it's then easier to do it calmly.

Not preaching, just sharing. It all definitely depends on the parent and the
kid and the situation, but I've learned a lot from people sharing their
parental experiences and anecdotes on HN, even when I disagreed or didn't find
it applicable.

~~~
chrishas35
One of the phrases I picked up watching younger family members be raised that
I've tried to apply, when appropriate, as a parent: "They'll only do it once."
Learning the why behind the "no" is an important of life. Obviously not every
life lesson where "no" applies can be taught in this manner, but when it can
be controlled...as the hot water was...it's an effective tool.

------
ca98am79
I've read a lot of parenting advice and it all sounds good in theory, but in
practice everything goes out the window. I'm in the throws of it now with a
9-month old and a 3-year old. It is hard to think about advice you read in an
article when you have not slept and the kids are screaming and having a
trantrum. Or you try to do what the article said and then it doesn't work at
all and only makes things worse.

I think you just have to wing it and do your best. Just be intuitive and as
empathetic as possible with your kids.

~~~
asark
With three kids (or even two!), any advice from someone with one comes off as
at least as grating as advice from people with no kids did when I only had
one.

All the time-consuming "just hang out with them and talk to them like humans!
Hug them for ten minutes! Make them complex, healthy dishes for every meal! I
do it and it all works so well! I mean I also have a night nanny and cleaning
service but I won't mention that..." goes out the window when one kid's about
to kill themselves with furniture, somehow, you're not sure where another
snuck off to but you suspect the worst, the third's making some god-awful
noise in the other room that you're pretty sure will end up being expensive
one way or another (oh no... did they make that sound or did the dog?) and
meanwhile if you take your eyes of this sauce for one second it's gonna burn
and it'll be pizza night... again.

Yes it's not constantly like that but it's always _kinda_ like that. I
understand it gets better when they're older. And I've heard from multiple
people with four or five that the difficulty levels off after three kids. Up
to three it's certainly _non-linear_. When for some reason we're down to one
it's about as easy as having zero, now. Yeah, I bet whatever crap you read
about on the Internet works, one-kidder. F*cking anything would. One's
nothing.

~~~
PerfectElement
It looks like you're going through a tough period and lashing out on people
who chose to have less than 3 kids.

~~~
asark
Nah, not tough, totally normal. Newly-multi-childed parents deserve some Real
Talk every now and then so they can get over trying to do (and feeling bad
about failing miserably at) all the crap they now don't have
time/energy/attention for from Internet parenting advice, and get on to
counting any day that ends with no more than one bleeding injury per kid and
$50 property damage as a _huge win_ , even if it took yelling a couple times
and some punishment not accompanied by a bunch of hugging and a long talk
about Right and Wrong here and there to achieve such great success. That
stuff's fine but at some point you can't be two places at once, and there are
more than two places you urgently need to be right this second, so something's
gonna get neglected.

It's OK. Internet parenting advice (or any that comes from the latest trendy
book) rarely survives contact with an enemy that outnumbers you. That's
normal. Be nice and attentive when you can but don't beat yourself up for not
taking 15min to calm your 4-year-old down then walk them through Plato's
notion of Justice when they're hitting their brother for the 5th time in as
many minutes. You have not failed when you have to choose between that stuff
and getting the kids out the door to wherever you have to be, or dinner on the
table, or clothes washed, or whatever. And when someone else tells you how
some system or other they read about on some parenting blog works so great and
is so gentle and nice and it's just crazy that anyone would ever yell at their
kids for any reason, smile and nod and silently wish them smart, energetic,
willful twins next time around.

[EDIT] and it's not the living hell that that read like, now that I look back
over that, it's just that discipline problems tend to shoot up the more kids
are around and they tend to cluster, and they tend to crop up when you're
otherwise busy, for obvious reasons, so when you _need_ to bust out your
strategy for dealing with bad behavior it's gotta be _fast_ and take _very
little of your time_ or it ain't gonna last long. When things are bad, they're
bad. Usually they're fine.

------
alexandercrohde
I used to spend time and energy collecting thoughts on how I could be a great
parent.

Then one day my aunt told me she was mad at her father for being "too logical"
when raising her because it gave her unrealistic expectations.

Then I started to question everything... If a parent never misbehaved is a kid
going to be thrown for a loop when they meet emotional teachers? Did my own
fathers weaknesses force me to develop greater strengths?

~~~
throwayEngineer
The whole identical twins separated at birth thing makes me believe
environment is the only thing a parent can provide.

Children do not listen to their parents for very long.

A decent school, technology like a laptop, and maybe an awareness to dissuade
bad friends. That seems like all you can do.

~~~
yellowstuff
I've thought about this a lot. The evidence seems pretty strong that as long
as you are a reasonably decent parent (IE, maybe anything short of child
abuse) your kid will probably turn out as their genetics and the large-scale
culture predetermine in a lot of important ways: IQ, income, educational
achievement. However, good parenting can make the journey more pleasant for
everyone involved, even if the destination is roughly the same. If I let my
son watch a ton of TV instead of actively playing with him it might not affect
his adult IQ much, but I do think it would make both of us worse off and less
satisfied in ways that would be hard to quantify. Of course, that may just be
how I justify doing what my culture tells me is good parenting even though
there's not much data in support of it.

------
sambeau
One of the easiest ways to be predictable is to tell children what is
happening and what is about to happen soon—especially if it will cut short a
game or a play session.

I have experienced so many tantrums of other people's children when they
surprise their children with home time when the child is completely engrossed
in playing. Children are constantly making their own plans and may have been
expecting their turn with a toy or be only half-way through building something
when they are told to pack up and leave. If it was me I'd be furious too.

I like to give a few warnings so that they can get a feel for how long they
have left and I tell them to start thinking about packing up, to get to a
checkpoint as soon as they can so they can save their game and if they are
waiting their turn with something, now would be a good time to have a final
swap over.

I can't recall a time when my kids had a tantrum at leaving time.

~~~
thenobsta
Agreed, My (almost) 3yr old responds really well to this technique. I'll give
give her a 10 or 5 min heads up and reminders at each halving of the
countdown. When we get to zero she's ready for action. I almost never have
issues when I do this. But, if I forget, I'll often get pushback.

------
cm2012
There's a pretty large body of twin study evidence that says as long as you
don't abuse your kids, your parenting styles don't matter to their long term
personality (or outcomes, when you adjust for parental income)

One such study here:
[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0741882070186459...](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418820701864599)

~~~
perlgeek
Even if parenting doesn't matter for long term outcomes very much, it
certainly affects how parents and kids feel in the 20ish years that typically
stay in the same household.

~~~
cm2012
Also true!

------
marktangotango
We’ve found timeouts are very effective with our kids. Although one parent is
more consistent about applying them than the other. One thing we’ve learned is
that time out with an angry child is not especially effective. So as our kids
have gotten older we will have them owe us a time out for when they’re more
calm and can actually get something from it.

We’ve also found devices are gold for discipline. Our routine is 20 min before
bed on weekdays, 20 min after meals on weekends. Usually we just have to
threaten losing screen time, ie if I ask them to pick up theirs shoes 5 times
the sixth time will be “or else”.

Generally consistency is key, and picking your battles as the author alludes
to.

There is one downside to raising children in a consistent, predictable, and
logical environment. That is; they’re less prepared to deal with chaotic
people and situations as adults.

~~~
thrower123
They will start getting experience with arbitrary, petty, random and chaotic
behavior as soon as you start sending them to public school.

~~~
thrownthrow
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. A thinly veiled insult
perhaps?

~~~
JshWright
That's not how I read it... Going to school means interacting with
dozens/hundreds of other people (many of them peers who are still developing
social interaction skills). Encountering those behaviors is inevitable in that
setting.

~~~
thrower123
That's about what I was getting at. You also get authority figures that are
inconsistent and tyrannical, the wonders of bureaucracy, and extreme
limitations of personal liberty. You get to learn how to deal with stupid and
illogical people, bullies, and all the other elements of the vast canvas of
personality types.

It's great training, and not to be discounted. But having a haven of stability
in the home is an essential counterbalance.

~~~
throes_death
But why do you stress the "public" bit?

~~~
thrower123
It's what I know about. Also, public schools have to take everybody, so you
are more likely to have to encounter people across the spectrum of abilities.

I've seen a lot of people that went to private schools really not understand
just how stupid can be nor how such people think, because their world was
chopped off at something like a 105 IQ floor.

------
RobertRoberts
We have some family friends that are decent people, but lousy parents.

After about 16 years of observation two of their kids have graduated (one with
honors) and the older they get, the more decent they have become, very similar
to their parents.

What I learned: Kids will turn out like their parents. And poorly skilled
parents can still raise decent and well behaved kids.

Who you are and how you treat people is more important than technical skills
to get your kids to behave.

~~~
cadlin
Perhaps they're decent parents, and you're a lousy judge of parenting?

~~~
RobertRoberts
Sure, that's possible.

One issue they had was their kids stayed up too late, didn't get enough sleep
and screamed a lot near the end of the day. They were late to school (in
elementary level) because the parents were tired too.

I think this is objectively bad parenting... but I could be wrong.

Edit: since I got one down vote let me add > they scream at their kids
regularly (daily, sometimes the normal tone), let them play video games
endlessly without supervision, and many other odd things. Kept a dog in a
crate permanently in the house where it crapped and screeched at everyone. The
list is long... Look at my other comments, I don't want to keep piling things
on, but do some pretty outlandish things as parents.

~~~
foolfoolz
sounds like wrong because different

~~~
RobertRoberts
Well, I should probably not have said "objectively", but we were comparing
against the article titled "how to parent more predictably"... so I felt that
was a fair assessment.

------
leokennis
The author rightfully states that being rich(er) helps in being more
predictable. Likewise, to be good at parenting it also helps a lot to have
“nice kids”. That’s why I take a lot of advice with a big grain of salt.

My 4 year old is a really soft, sweet and sensitive boy. Just saying something
like “it would be great if you cleaned up that mess of Duplo!” results in him
immediately doing it. So is my tip to get kids to clean up “just suggest they
do it?” No, because it will probably not work on most other kids who are more
stubborn and less sensitive to maintaining a positive atmosphere.

~~~
ahaferburg
What are you doing after he's cleaned up? I'm guessing you're doing something
to reinforce his behavior, and that that is way more important than the
initial suggestion.

------
jwr
If you want to be better at parenting, get a dog first, and learn how to deal
with dogs. Properly, using modern behavioral techniques. You will find that
many rules apply both to dogs and kids (which shouldn't be surprising,
really).

Things like consistency (try to set as few rules as possible, but if you do
set them, enforce them without exceptions), deciding ahead of time and
sticking to it assertively (do not change your decision based on pleading),
calmness (dogs do not follow or listen to people who are agitated and
nervous), avoiding too much control (do not issue too many commands),
enforcing control (when you do issue a command, it needs to be obeyed, and not
repeated), and punishment (calm, immediate, understandable, predictable and
linked to the transgression) — you can learn all of those while properly
raising a dog.

Also, never lie to your kid (or dog) and answer their every question
seriously.

~~~
fjsolwmv
It also works to practice with coworkers, friends, and really anything with a
modicum of intelligence and a limbic system.

------
lazyant
A pattern that I see a lot in parks etc is parents wanting to leave and
telling the little kids "5 more minutes!" then after 5 minutes "just one more
minute!" or whatever. Pro-tip: kids are not aware of what 5 minutes looks
like, make it a specific number of activities: "going down the slide 10 times
more", you can count together and it looks initially like a large number. Not
a magic wand but works way better than the time warnings.

~~~
Scarblac
Also in general the trick "I will count to three, and when I say 'three' you
will have put that down and stand here. One..." is a far more successful
method than it has any right to. I count to 10 for getting them dressed.

The trick is to _always_ let them be successful at reaching the goal, slow
down as much as needed, say "two and half, two and three quarters......", they
should never find out that I have absolutely nothing planned for the case when
it finally fails.

~~~
allcentury
I just started doing this last week, it has saved us from so many breakdowns.

------
rotrux
I think it's better to be unpredictable.

Once or twice a year I like to throw my kids into a pit-maze, which I've been
digging for the past several months, and fill it with various kinds of
dangerous creatures and turn on strobe lights.

Do they hate it? Sure the ones who make it out definitely do, but that's life.
I'm preparing them for life.

------
beat
Raising twins pushed me way over to the nature side of nature vs nurture. What
works well for one child may be entirely counterproductive for another.

That said, one thing this article really gets right is the importance of not
letting your emotions control your mouth and making threats/promises that you
can't/won't keep. I also think it's very important that when you screw up
while parenting (and you will screw up), that you be sure to take
responsibility and apologize to your children. I think a lot of parents think
apologizing will make them look weak or diminish their authority, when it's
really the opposite.

------
ycombonator
No child is the same. Timeouts ended up traumatizing our child. Anyway I came
across this and started to experiment some of the principles from here
[https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/03/13/6855333...](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/03/13/685533353/a-playful-
way-to-teach-kids-to-control-their-anger)

------
sequoia
My advice to new parents is to ignore most people's advice & trust their
instincts. The best response to the deluge of "you're parenting wrong"
articles is to tell the authors of such articles, politely but firmly, to go
pound sand.

Sure, read books and articles to learn _strategies_ you can try, tools for
your toolbox, but ultimately, "relax–you'll figure it out!" is the best
advice. Most parents care immensely about their children & this fact is more
likely to lead them to parent well than any article or "tip."

Source: I've been a parent about my entire adult life (since 20), I have 4
kids, I've read a ton of stupid parenting articles, as a young parent everyone
felt comfortable giving me parenting advice.

~~~
fjsolwmv
Your first paragraph contradicts your second paragraph.

------
J-dawg
I bookmarked this article ages ago because the advice seems so sensible. This
post just reminded me of it.

[https://blog.codinghorror.com/how-to-talk-to-human-
beings/](https://blog.codinghorror.com/how-to-talk-to-human-beings/)

------
guest2143
This book changed how I parent:
[https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/6162649-healing-
stori...](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/6162649-healing-stories-for-
challenging-behaviour)

The ability to modify behavior by singing a couplet from a story I read -- no
raising of voices, or wagging of fingers -- was revelatory.

It's from the waldorf educational tradition.

------
ben7799
My kid is a bit of a behavior problem.

The worst thing about some of this is these days so many of us are stuck
leaving our kids with day care/school so much of the time, and plenty of these
"professionals", don't get this stuff.

Day care here ran about $2k/month and the education level of the teachers was
just not up to par for that amount of money. I always wondered where the money
was going, they all had college degrees but got paid 1/2 or less what public
teachers do in this area. There was a ton of bragging from management at the
day care about how great the academic start was (this chain even brags about
higher SAT scores!) and I think it was mostly hogwash. I was always thinking
someone was making a lot of money on the day cares as it was not hard to
figure out their approximate gross revenue/month. So often the day care was
making things worse... take one step forward at home and 2 steps back at day
care.

Thankfully my child is in public school now, we have a great school system,
and the teachers are a million times better at dealing with this stuff in
productive ways.

~~~
pjdemers
for a while I was on the board of a day care. We were not -for-profit, but
charged only a little less than for-profit day care. Some things about cost:
Running the building cost more than I thought, and we got free rent. Heat,
insurance, repairs, etc, were all more than I expected. Plumbing & HVAC
repairs alone were more than I would have thought for the whole building. We
had only two teachers with benefits, but it cost about $10k per month _just
for their benefits and statutory taxes_. That is, we spent $10k every month on
labor before the teachers received dollar one.

------
bjcubsfan
Advice from Alan Kazdin from Yale has influenced my parenting of my 4 young
boys more than any other single source. His recommendations against punishment
are based on the fact that research shows they are not effective for long-term
behavior change in children. It is challenging to use the methods in heated
moments, but even without perfect application, they have been helpful.

Here is an article that introduces the ideas:

[https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/03/no-
spanki...](https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/03/no-spanking-no-
time-out-no-problems/475440/)

Here is his book, that has full details and many examples:

[https://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Parenting-Toolkit-Step-
Step-...](https://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Parenting-Toolkit-Step-Step-
ebook/dp/B008LQ1VU8/)

~~~
ludicast
Thank you for recommending this. I'm going to try this method with my "less
easy" kid.

------
jvagner
My single greatest piece of advice:

Institute a safe word with your child. It goes both ways, no exceptions. When
the safe word is issued, whatever was safeworded stops.

Typical rules of safe words, but my kid is 15 and we still use the safe word
when things are going wayward (jokes, fights, annoyances, repetitions,
references). Probably started it when he was 1 or 2.

Second favorite bit of advice:

Routines (brushing teeth, going to bed, leaving the house) should be as close
to silent, w/r/t instructions, as possible. Talk to each other, but don't
negotiate "whatever's next" or "c'mon" or "hurry up".

~~~
sequoia
In our household the word "badingo" means "I recognize that you are doing a
joke premised on being annoying or repetitive,* I acknowledge your joke, it is
funny, now please stop."

I've never used a "safe word" for anything else but it's an interesting idea.

*for example an impression of a person who gives far too detailed explanations, or singing a repetitive song with no end

~~~
jvagner
Ours has become very multi-use, but it's pretty righteously observed.

My girlfriend and I may be in the car with my son, and the conversation may
steer into very adult territory, the kind of thing that makes my son
uncomfortable, and after a bit of the talking, we'll hear a moderately voiced
"baaaadingo..." from the backseat, which we know means he thinks we've gotten
too far into adult-land and he's not feeling comfortable.

But sometimes when we lose our tempers, the safe word can be a gift. He's 15,
his teenager-ness is kicking in just about now, and we can use the safe word
to disrupt a self-esteem spiral. He'll stop whatever rant he's on, and sit
down and wait it out. The safe word most often stops a behavior and introduces
silence... everyone can use that gift regularly enough.

~~~
sequoia
This seems useful. Is there a point at which you think it would be useful to
phase out the use of a specialized safe-word & transition to a more widely
understood form of signalling discomfort, or using other strategies such
leaving the situation or reading book or putting on headphones etc.?

Have you had situations where this "safe-word" is used where you felt the
situation wasn't severe enough to require shutting down, and asked your son to
try to communicate his needs in plain language?

The safe-word sounds useful but I know that for my kids I would not be
comfortable with them "pulling the fire alarm" merely because a discussion was
uncomfortable for them, I'd ask them instead to find a way to make their
request in plain English. My concern with overuse is the "safe-word" turning
into a _substitute_ for expressing one's needs clearly.

Cool system tho! I might try it out.

------
socialist_coder
I feel like if you don't do this stuff intuitively, you can't really learn it.

My only data point is my SO. No matter how many times I try to coach my SO on
these very simple parenting rules, she just doesn't get it. She makes threats
she cannot follow through with, she doesn't think of simple "if you do this
then we'll do that" tricks, and doesn't use the simple 1-2-3 timeout method.

All that stuff seems very intuitive to me. But I think some people just don't
get it and never will.

------
sudosteph
I'm glad the author here called out that being predictable via following
through on "rules" isn't enough - rules need to comprehensible and reasonable
in their own right to be understood. He's also got a good grasp on the
importance of properly phrasing things for children to understand. His point
here seemed spot on:

> Similarly, adults understand that you don't have authority over everyone
> around you, but with kids phrasing like "Mama can read to you when we get
> home" isn't as good as "I'll ask Mama if she'll read to you when we get
> home." Or, even better, "when we get home you can ask Mama if she'll read to
> you.

Reminds me of a piece I read here a while ago [1] about how Mr. Rogers would
intentionally phrase things very carefully on his show in order to avoid
ambiguity. He also emphasized phrasing things in a way that gave the child
some insight into the reasoning and a sense of responsibility - so they could
feel good about doing the right thing instead of just learning blind
obedience.

[1] [https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/mr-
rogers...](https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/mr-rogers-
neighborhood-talking-to-kids/562352/)

------
bg4
We've had a lot of success with praising desired behaviors rather than
discipline of unwanted behaviors. Also, using 'think throughs' has been an
effective teaching tool (ask the child to think through and say out loud what
needs to be done etc)

Per: [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/14391149-calmer-
easier-h...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/14391149-calmer-easier-
happier-parenting)

------
tmp2846
One my most painful realizations as an adult was realizing that my parents
were emotionally negligent and that I have long suffered from CPTSD as a
result. They treated parenting as if it was just providing food and shelter
and failed to realize that good parenting is actually about teaching your kids
to be emotionally mature. I struggle with feelings of emptiness,
depersonalization, and numbness in ways that make it hard to feel normal most
days.

------
astrostl
Grunching in a way that I hope doesn't come off as santimomious. I grew up
with foster kids and have acute awareness of how creatively foster parents can
get around "no hitting" rules with medieval stuff like time outs barefoot in
the dark in a winter garage. Ultimately feel that "no hitting" is striking at
the branches, but not the root.

[https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Shoot-Dog-Teaching-
Training/dp/1...](https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Shoot-Dog-Teaching-
Training/dp/1860542387/) was a radically eye-opening book for me, particularly
as it related to parenting. I don't believe that hitting, or yelling, or other
forms of intimidation, or time outs, or the concept of punishment at all is
either good or ultimately effective. And anecdatally that approach has worked
out great for us and our kids.

------
mekane8
I really like these tips. My wife and I have followed a very similar approach,
and I like to think we have two well-behaved, considerate, and appropriately
responsible 5-year-olds.

We find timeouts to be quite effective, and we use the clear "you need to do X
or it's a timeout" and then clearly counting to three. This is often after a
few attempts to ask in a regular tone of voice and/or cajole. In fact I have
found the number of timeouts we actually give has decreased dramatically, and
just counting does the trick now when we need them to respond quickly.

My wife and I were both classroom teachers in the past, so we've both been
able to use some of those tools with our kids. We do of course let them be
kids, let them have their occasional freak-out moments, and we couch all of
this in a lot of love, affection, and communication.

------
achenatx
Another thing I havent seen mentioned is rather than punish (by taking away
things) for bad behavior, you should be rewarding for good behavior. Meaning
every privilege has to be earned.

This is a subtle difference but works well. The default for most people is you
get to play electronics. If you are bad we are taking them away. Instead, the
default should be you do X, Y and Z, to earn the privilege to play with
electronics. This is every single day.

Instead of you didnt clean your room, you dont get to play electronics. It
would be, you cleaned your room, you earned some electronics time.

------
happy-go-lucky
Sometimes I pity myself for I’m currently not able to spend an adequate amount
of time with our only child. Until a couple years ago we used to go play in a
playground on a daily basis and this helped us properly bond with our child.
Even my child’s academic performance was better back then. Now that we are
less outdoorsy thanks to being too busy to have fun, we have become weary of
our monotony. It is my experiential learning: the less time we spend together,
the more we lose in terms of our family bonding.

------
canercandan
You may also try Non-violent Communication, that's the way I would do with my
kids.

------
shearskill
The book 1-2-3 Magic tames even the wildest kids if you are consistent. It
feels humane to give kids a few chances to change their trajectory. Highly
recommend.

------
jefftk
I hope my post ends up being helpful! Here are a few others I've written about
parenting that might be interesting:

* [https://www.jefftk.com/p/equal-parenting-advice-for-dads](https://www.jefftk.com/p/equal-parenting-advice-for-dads)

* [https://www.jefftk.com/p/parenting-optional-vs-required](https://www.jefftk.com/p/parenting-optional-vs-required)

* [https://www.jefftk.com/p/street-training](https://www.jefftk.com/p/street-training)

------
kr4
A good reading on mindful parenting is [0]:

>>> Mahatma Gandhi’s son Manilal Gandhi moved to South Africa to carry on the
work his father had left behind – fight against injustice and discrimination.
One day, Manilal had a daylong meeting in Johannesburg and he asked his son,
Arun Gandhi, to drive him there. Arun thought this would be a good opportunity
to also get his car serviced. They left for the meeting in the morning. In
Arun’s words: I dropped my father off for his meeting and got the car to the
garage by one. Since it was a long time until five o’clock, I figured I could
go to the movies, which I did. That day there was a double feature being
shown, and when I got out I checked my watch and realized that it was past
five o’clock! I rushed to the corner where my father had said he would be
waiting for me, and when I saw him there, standing in the rain, I tried to
think of excuses I could make. I rushed up to him and said, ‘Father, you must
forgive me. It is taking them longer to repair the automobile than I thought
it would take, but if you wait here I will go and get the car. It should be
ready by now.’ My father bowed his head and looked downward. He stood for a
long moment and then he said, ‘When you were not here at our meeting time I
called the garage to see why you were late. They told me that the automobile
was ready at three o’clock. Now I have to give some thought as to how I have
failed, so as to have a son who would lie to his own father. I will have to
think about this, so I am going to walk home and use the time during my walk
to meditate on this question.’ I followed my elderly father home that rainy,
misty night, watching him stagger along the muddy road. I rode behind him with
the headlights of the car flashing ahead of his steps. And as I watched him
stumbling towards home, I beat on the steering wheel and said over and over,
‘I will never lie again! I will never lie again! I will never lie again!' What
struck me as particularly interesting in this story was how Manilal didn’t
shame his son, he didn’t start shouting at him or telling him how Arun had
failed him as a son. Instead, he seemed to have understood one thing clearly:
children do love their parents. They may act or behave otherwise but deep down
they love their parents and need their parents’ love and presence in their
lives. We can never inspire anyone to do anything by creating fear in their
minds or by shaming them. We may force a child – or even an adult – to do
something and they may do it well temporarily, but to instill in them a
lifelong habit or to inspire them, love remains the only potent weapon. And
no, by this I don’t mean mollycoddling. I simply mean embracing a sense of
acceptance.

0: [https://www.amazon.com/Children-Tomorrow-Monks-Mindful-
Paren...](https://www.amazon.com/Children-Tomorrow-Monks-Mindful-
Parenting/dp/9353029341)

------
hamilyon2
This article ignores large body of knowledge about parenting, unapplicable in
most cultures and families in the world. I tried it personally. Techniques
described serve no good purpose, just irritate everyone and ultimately
destroys family from inside

------
namuol
Apparently parenting is all about consistency in punishment.

What about reward?

