
How Hillsong Church conquered the music industry - gscott
https://christiandailyjournal.com/2018/10/20/how-hillsong-church-conquered-the-music-industry-in-gods-name/
======
peterburkimsher
Hillsong music is simple, catchy, and easy to play. If a teenager can pick up
a guitar and lead their friends to sing along with easy lyrics, it'll be a
hit.

A satirical take on this is How to Write a Worship Song (In 5 Minutes or
Less).

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhYuA0Cz8ls](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhYuA0Cz8ls)

Translations of Hillsong music into other languages are also popular. 約書亞樂團
Joshuaband translate some songs into Chinese, and it was a huge help for me
learning Mandarin. I also know about illegal translations of a lot more songs,
in Chinese, Taiwanese, and Hungarian. It's illegal because CCLI doesn't
operate in those countries, so there's no way to license the song translations
officially. Email me if you want to know where to get the
chords/PPT/OpenSong/sheet music/MP3s.

For other languages, there's Hillsong Global Project for German, Spanish,
French, Portuguese, Russian, Swedish, Korean, Indonesian, French, and Chinese.

~~~
wbl
I am not a Christian, but I feel like
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ffg4mU7FNE&t=2s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ffg4mU7FNE&t=2s)
is far more divine sounding then someone with a guitar as in
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io2WOQ-3aVs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io2WOQ-3aVs)
. Sadly my faith tradition is stuck with Debbie Freedman.

~~~
explorigin
It's all about culture. If you were influenced by a high-church growing up,
you're more likely appreciate hymns.

People that converted without a high-church context gravitate toward a more
modern style of worship.

The downside of so much hillsong influence is that it dominates a culture and
drowns out other modern styles. I feel like all hillsong songs sound the same.

~~~
bartread
Tend to agree. Most Christian music sounds very samey to me and simply doesn't
_stir my soul_.

I realise this is a very personal perspective, but I find a lot of "secular"
music better for worship: Hendrix, Led Zep, Guns 'N' Roses, Soundgarden,
Hybrid, She, Pendulum, and of course plenty of orchestral and ensemble music
from earlier eras. This stuff stirs my soul.

I'm honestly not trying to be edgy here, and I'm well aware that this isn't
going to be everyone's (or even the majority's) bag, and I'm definitely not
suggesting that Christian music needs to change for my benefit (it really
doesn't). That's all totally OK: it's just me saying that after 22 years of
being a Christian I know who I am.

~~~
redbeard0x0a
> I'm honestly not trying to be edgy here, and I'm well aware that this isn't
> going to be everyone's (or even the majority's) bag

We forget that people are extremely varied, there is room for everybody. An
infinite God probably doesn't create only ~3 "right" ways of worshipping,
living, serving, teaching, etc.

------
nickelcitymario
I just wanna say, I clicked through to the comments expecting this to be a
diatribe against christians and christianity, and I am thoroughly pleased to
see that's not the case.

As a (struggling with faith) christian, I tend to think my fellow tech heads
will mock me if it comes up. And yet this post has been really respectful,
largely just debating the merits of the article rather than as an opportunity
to attack.

Kudos, hackers, for proving civility still exists. I'm tickled pink.

~~~
Danielalonso91
Dude, I totally second your comment. That's the very first thing I thought as
I initially scrolled through the comments. I tip my hat, both to Christians
for not being scared to express their beliefs, and to non-Christians for
showing respect.

------
armandososa
I've been playing in worship groups for +20 years now and I'm currently
leading the youth band in a very small church and here are two things that
I've been noting recently:

Hillsong's music and most "mainstream" music that come from white english-
spoken megachurches have lyrics that talk about "grace","love" and "God
accepting you as you are". While the themes on worship music coming from South
America (and I think black churches in US too) are more about "Joy", "Freedom"
and "God, the mighty warrior defeating his enemies and delivering his people".
I found that really interesting.

The other thing is that even while Hillsong's and similar music is very
shallow and simplistic, it is becoming increasingly difficult to perform with
simple, cheap instruments. So small and poor bands like ours lose appeal
against the ones in megachurches with lots of instruments, talent-pool and
technology.

I, for one, I'm embracing this and going for a rock-punk attitude for my
little worship band.

~~~
Twirrim
There's another interesting language difference to look at, both within the
history of Western worship, and in various countries.

Western worship has become heavily "I/Me" based, where historically it was
more "Us/We" based. To the point it's starting to drive me crazy. Worship is
becoming almost entirely selfish. A group of individuals having an individual
experience, instead of a group of people having a collective, binding,
experience with God.

~~~
BadThink6655321
I'm reminded of two things. First, Knuth's article "On the Complexity of
Songs", which features K. C. and the Sunshine band's "That's the way..."
(Knuth, btw, is a Christian). Second, many years ago, a music minister and I
were goofing around with worship songs set to disco music. I did, "That's the
way, uh huh, huh huh, I praise Him, uh huh, uh huh..." This was, partly, to
express my discontent with I-focused worship and banal lyrics. He responded
with an amazing, impromptu version of the Bee Gee's "Staying Alive" with the
lyrics "He is alive! He is alive!".

------
socceroos
As a conservative, I've never really paid any attention to Hillsong stuff.
What I did hear of typical pentecostal music struck me as pretty shallow
and.....commercial. Admittedly as an ignoramus, I do wonder how they get
around tax exemption while they rake this all in.

I know you can't brush everyone with the same stroke, but it feels reminiscent
of those mega-pastors that fly around in their private jets to shake hands and
take selfies with the poor - the message becomes a sideshow to the brand. It
makes me uneasy - but, disclaimer, I don't really know on the pentecostal
spectrum of commercialism where they lie.

~~~
bartread
Uneasy is the word I'd use as well. And in saying this I have to be honest and
admit that I can't point to anything specific that's _wrong_.

Hillsong often get the plaudits (and the rap), but there are other similar
movements. Worship Central and HTB here in the UK spring immediately to mind.
I do go to these kinds of places from time to time and, whatever the
organisation, you talk to the people involved: they're approachable and seem
genuine, and they talk about empowering and benefitting the church and
Christians at large, and I have no evidence to the contrary. All of which just
leaves me feeling guilty about my discomfort, and maybe that's OK because
maybe I'm wrong.

On the flip-side everything is so _shiny_ : everyone you see ministering is
beautiful and/or handsome and, although the quality of the music and lyrics
might be questionable, the production values are excruciatingly high, and
you're surrounded by people - particularly at the front - who appear to be
going out of their way to model this kind of aching hyperreal trendiness.

Compare this with the composition of the average congregation (of any
denomination) in the UK[1]. Even stepping past the issue of ageing
congregations in many places, we're (and I mean no unkindness in saying this)
a pretty miscellaneous bunch. In lots of churches you end up with all sorts
having to get involved in making it work, not just those who are good-looking
or loaded or "good people". There's space for _everyone_ , and all can
contribute, or at least that's what we aspire to - we believe in a God who
calls the things who are not as though they are.

Possibly that last observation is rose-tinted when compared with reality, and
possibly unfair on Hillsong and its imitators. Still, the contrast between
Hillsong-like and most other churches does feel jarring and leaves me with
that lingering unease.

Sorry: this ended up a lot longer than I expected.

 _[1] Note that I deliberately haven 't gone down the route of comparing with
the lives and lifestyles of Jesus and the Apostles, not because I necessarily
think the comparison is invalid, but because: one, for many people I think
there's a lack of familiarity with the source material that may render the
comparison meaningless to them, and, two, because the societal and cultural
situations are radically different, which makes any such comparison much more
complex._

~~~
zellyn
For me, the big problem with this kind of musical/theatrical production is
that you're doing one thing — provoking excited emotions and feelings in a
group context, just as would happen at a well-produced secular concert, or a
moving, personal comedy show — and implicitly or explicitly claiming that it
is a personal religious experience. Many times with young people who don't
know the difference.

I suppose it might be fair to include music-induced group ecstatic experiences
in your definition of “religious”. But I find the mix-n-match, the implied
claim that the emotion of the large-context experience is _actually_ a result
of some kind of personal, relational connection to God, to be a heavily loaded
and ambiguous possible untruth.

ymmv — I definitely have religion issues :-)

~~~
bartread
> you're doing one thing — provoking excited emotions and feelings in a group
> context, just as would happen at a well-produced secular concert, or a
> moving, personal comedy show — and implicitly or explicitly claiming that it
> is a personal religious experience. Many times with young people who don't
> know the difference.

 _That_ is a very thought-provoking perspective, which I think I'll probably
be chewing over for a while - thanks for sharing it.

~~~
pnathan
I would stringently urge any evangelical who hasn't attended a high energy
secular concert - a good one - to go. After you've had that kind of
experience, it is like subtracting the noise from the signal.

gave me a permanent distaste for "concerts" at church.

------
netcan
I went to a few Hillsong events about 10 years ago, when the church was
becoming very obvious cultural influence Australia-wide. There is a lot that's
very entrepreneurial about this church. They also started Gloria Jean's, a
big, international Starbucks competitor. Like the music stuff, this had to do
with youth culture and creating social aspects to the movement.

In Australia a lot of people called the denomination "charismatic churches"
which is largely overlapping with "evangelical" in the states, where it comes
from. The larger family of denominations has been growing and
internationalising at a serious pace.

In any case, when it comes to religion, opinions are.. sensitive. But, I think
the recent history of this religion is worth learning about, for those
interested, just because they've been " _making things happen_ ". Religions
are pretty diverse structurally, from one another.

Hillsong and related movements (mostly descendants of American evangelical
denominations) tend to be quite decentralised. The Church (institution) and
the church (building/parish) are almost the same thing. They don't have a
traditional, top-heavy hierarchy (bishops, cardinals) and they don't have a
traditional local parochial structure.

~~~
thrmsforbfast
_> just because they've been "making things happen"._

Actually, my biggest fear about Christianity in the USA today is that it's
_NOT_ "making things happen" Or, perhaps more accurately, the things that it's
making happen are businesses.

The mainline congregations and Catholics of the 19th and early-mid 20th
centuries made serious contributions to:

1\. Education. In addition to the obvious middle and high schools, they
started colleges and universities. There are literally hundreds of catholic,
Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, etc. colleges dotting rural
America. There are also many more that have since shaken the affiliation but
were originally started as schools for pastors and teachers. These christian
educational institutions touched more than just the churches; e.g., Fred
Rogers was educated at a college founded by Congregationalists and a seminary
founded by Presbyterians.

2\. Pastoral training/care. Aside from the above-mentioned colleges and
universities, these congregations also started/supported seminaries and --
perhaps more importantly -- insisted on well-trained pastoral leadership that
understood the church's teachings.

3\. Congregational care. This included everything from helping out a sick
congregant, to gardening, to helping keep the church building in working
condition.

4\. Community care. Everything from running food pantries to setting up and
staffing health clinics, and sometimes even entire hospitals.

Many modern christian churches aren't much more than tax-free concert venues
with a self-help workshop on the side run by charismatic communications
majors. They'll take the parsonage exemption, but don't seriously engage in
any of the traditional Christian charity work: education, healthcare, caring
for the homeless and elderly, or even teaching the gospel.

Even the congregation's own members seem to have become not much more than
leads for related businesses; e.g., the charismatic church a family friend
attends runs a (very profitable) counseling center and refers its members
there for basically every problem mentioned to a pastor or other staff member.
Not a casserole in sight when she threw out her back, though.

Which I suppose is reasonable. After all, running a lead-generating
combination concert/lecture venue is already a full-time job.

~~~
mysterydip
Agreed. When I moved into a new area and was "church hunting", one of my stops
was the largest church in the area, with multiple satellite campuses. I
realized why it was so popular: every Sunday was a big production. People were
going to be entertained, not engaged.

There's definitely a continuum, though. There are small churches doing the
traditional thing just as there's megachurches doing God, Inc. The church I
attend now has a definite focus on the fundamentals you listed above.

~~~
gscott
Big churches that are charismatic and feel like concert venues (The Rock
Church here in San Diego for instance) I don't feel are necessarily bad. If
that is the door into religion then one could find their way to another
congregation like the Methodists who truly focus on good works (help for those
recently out of prisons, etc).

~~~
specialist
Audiences vs congregations.

I've been attending a Rock & Roll Jesus church. Partially out of curiousity.
It's been weird.

------
drewmol
If you read anxiously through the whole article like I did thinking: "Yeah I
get it but what are the numbers?"

From 2015 article: "The Hillsong empire they founded (she, too, is a senior
pastor) pulled in tax-free revenues of nearly $80 million in Australia last
year and more than $100 million internationally."

[https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/inside-the-hillsong-
churchs...](https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/inside-the-hillsong-churchs-
moneymaking-machine-20151026-gkip53.html)

~~~
xamuel
Mega-churches remind me of this warning from Jesus: "Enter through the narrow
gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and
many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to
life, and only a few find it."

~~~
DannyB2
I am more skeptical about mega churches. But big or small, the thing I look
for is the message. Is it a feel good, everybody is okay type of message? Or
do they actually talk about sin, repentance and salvation? Jesus said that
believers would be hated by everyone for spreading his message. So I have a
more skeptical eye towards mega churches. But you can find the gospel in some
large churches, and the feel good pop psychology messages in some smaller
churches. So size is not an absolute inverse index.

------
barrow-rider
"You're not making Christianity better, you're just making rock and roll
worse" -H. Hill.

[https://i.redd.it/5iqvu91yz0ly.jpg](https://i.redd.it/5iqvu91yz0ly.jpg)

~~~
bartread
Amazing. How have I never seen that before? Made me laugh primarily because it
resonates quite strongly for me (although I suspect not for everyone).

There _are_ Christian artists I've really enjoyed. Iona spring immediately to
mind, although I haven't listened to them regularly in years, but the relevant
points are:

1) Their lyrics tend to have more substance to them.

2) Even if the style isn't your cup of tea, there's some real and undeniable
musicianship on display.

Although way poppier, and with edgier lyrics, I'd probably put Switchfoot in
the same category.

~~~
cvwright
> Switchfoot

You would probably also appreciate Jon Foreman's (Switchfoot founder) solo
work too.

~~~
bartread
Thanks: I'll definitely check it out.

------
buildbuildbuild
Hillsong NYC volunteer software engineer here. We’re passionate about using
our skills to serve the local community in addition to our church. Shoot me an
email if you’re in the area and would like to chat about helping local
nonprofits with code. e at emersonhall dot com

~~~
Multicomp
What kind of technology stack(s) do you guys use?

~~~
victorhooi
Would love to know this as well =).

------
RickJWagner
Hillsong is influential, no doubt. But I bet in the long run, even more
influential will be the music from 'Veggietales'. (Sort of like 'Schoolhouse
Rock'. Very catchy, and popular with all ages.)

~~~
JshWright
The catchy Veggie Tales songs are the "Silly Songs" though.

Such great classics as "Dance of the Cucumber"[1], "Monkey or Ape"[2], and
"Song of the Cebu"[3]...

[1]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13DvXLdr_H4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13DvXLdr_H4)
[2]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--szrOHtR6U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--szrOHtR6U)
[3]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uv8Ej4CEoQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uv8Ej4CEoQ)

------
bbrodriguez
While not directly rated to Hillsong, there's an interesting series of
episodes from Gimlet Media's StartUp podcast called Church Planting that dives
down to reveal more day to day operations on how church plants that start
small like Hillsong grow into bigger churches. Lot of the aspects of pitching
to established investor churches, growth hacking, etc. have a lot more in
common to a startup company than a church and pastors more like founders.
Church plants that can adapt have a more successful growth. I think it
provides an interesting perspective into how "successful" churches like
Hillsong that started by meeting in a high school end up turning into
megachurches across 6 continents.

------
packetslave
The other 900lb gorilla in the contemporary Christian music world today is
Bethel Church, in Redding CA. They've put out as much if not more of than
Hillsong in terms of the music played in contemporary churches these days. Too
bad their great music hides some "interesting" theology, IMHO.

~~~
jonshariat
Yes, Jesus Culture is the other big player in the space.

~~~
peterburkimsher
There's also IHOP, Passion 268Generation (Chris Tomlin, Matt Redman, David
Crowder Band), and Worship Central from the UK (Tim Hughes, Ben Cantelon).

~~~
packetslave
oh, Passion is a good one. I don't normally associate Tomlin, etc. with them
because they're all such huge solo artists these days (vs. someone like
Kristian Stanfill).

Chris Tomlin is especially big in terms of writing songs that modern churches
play. There's a reason we called it "Good Good Grief, We're Playing This
Again?" on my worship team :-)

------
p0d
I’ve been playing bass in churches for 30 years. I really enjoy listening to
Hillsong’s music and playing it.

In the 80s we had lively songs and pensive songs. I enjoy the modern style of
quiet songs which become epic anthems.

------
paulcole
Good interview with Carl Lentz on Bill Simmon’s podcast:

[https://www.theringer.com/2017/11/8/16623902/pastor-carl-
len...](https://www.theringer.com/2017/11/8/16623902/pastor-carl-lentz-on-
locker-room-culture-secret-scrimmages-and-more)

------
dmlab
Outside the church, this Guy Sebastian type music doesn't cut the mustard.
Speaking as an Australian - most of us find Hillsong vaguely threatening. It's
a Sydney thing really. I sound negative but in reality, good on the church for
enjoying their own music.

------
rawTruthHurts
Off topic: isn't this an overly inflated clickbaity editorialised headline?

~~~
rhizome
It's not remotely about "conquering" anything except their music's lack of
popularity.

------
Danielalonso91
I'm having a hard time absorbing and getting through all the high-quality
insights and contributions. There's no doubt that there are a lot of very
intelligent people here.

Very happy to be a part of this community.

------
mikorym
TLDR; I am disappointed that this headline is not satirical.

------
rezeroed
My sister's involved with Hillsong. A scam if ever I saw one. I no longer have
anything to do with her.

~~~
whatthesmack
Would you mind elaborating? I personally enjoy the music Hillsong puts out,
but am always curious about the inner workings of an organization such as
theirs.

~~~
giancarlostoro
They share a bit of commonalities with IHOP. I think they might mean their
"internship" program is a scam. Look into how IHOP is a cult / scams young
people. Its a lot of fluff. My cousin too joined one of the internships but
for her own reasons and thankfully she knew better so by the time she got out
she just knew we were right about them, except she knew the whole enchilada.

In the case of IHOP they have sexualized lyrics which they front as worship
music by over emphasizing being the Bride of Christ. This leads sexually
frustrated / confused (in a Christian viewpoint / sense) youths even more
confused about Jesus and their relationship with Him. Its a lot to take all at
once so research it and pray about it and take your time. I just personally
avoid IHOP / Hillsong for multiple reasons. The other thing to remember is
they are not all at fault some are just there genuinely or misled into being
there.

~~~
hotcrossbunny
Took me quite a while to work out you weren't talking about pancakes

~~~
rhizome
It is indeed an initialism for International House of _Prayer_.

------
expathacker
What relevance does this have to Hacker News?

~~~
samontar
It’s a pretty clever business niche and a way to run tax-free. The end result
is a cultural machine that may well have changed the nature of Christian
worship. Interesting, no?

~~~
expathacker
Sure I guess.

tl;dr: Christian organization scams tax payers, recent conservative trends on
Hacker News somehow makes this interesting?

~~~
samontar
Is it really a scam if it’s what taxpayers want?

I don’t think this is interesting because any conservative trend. It’s a cool
business hack that allows you to make money without taxes.

~~~
expathacker
I would argue that all religious tax-dodges are scams if you're an atheist. My
businesses and lack of faith don't get a free-ride, but I have to subsidize
that of somebody else's?

By this logic, it's a cool business hack to run a megachurch and buy your own
737 without paying taxes, not a scam?

~~~
bartread
You aren't really subsidising it, unless you're making the argument that if
organisations - such as Hillsong - paid taxes the overall tax rate would be
lowered for all? Ideally this might be true but the cynic in me suggests it
wouldn't... well, that and the fact that their income within a given country
is relatively insignificant as compared to GDP within that country.

Moreover:

1) Hillsong runs substantially on donations and purchases of their merchandise
(including music). Most of the people who give or buy their merchandise are
taxpayers themselves.

2) Anyone paid as an employee by Hillsong will pay taxes, just like everyone
else. I don't know much about the lifestyles of their senior employees/leaders
- maybe it's a televangelist-style Gulfstream-and-champagne-fest, maybe not.

3) We know Hillsong earn a lot of money but we don't know that they keep very
much of it[1]. If they're anything like HTB, they quite likely don't[2]: the
vast majority will be spent on staffing, ministry, along with a chunk given to
support other organisations and causes. Ministry means everything from what
you see on a Sunday and special events through to social initiatives such as
food banks, homeless shelters, childrens' work, soup kitchens, and educational
initiatives (and more) that many churches either support or run.

Point (3) is important because it's the point that makes a church a net good
within society (or not, in the absence of it). If they're not a net good then
I'd be more inclined to agree that, yes, they should be taxed as businesses
rather than not taxed as though they're charities. Quantifying that is
obviously non-trivial.

 _[1] It 's possible they do but I don't have any information to hand on
this._

 _[2] At a pure numbers level this is something that distinguishes a charity
from a (healthy) business: one does not generate a profit (which is not to say
the money shouldn 't be used carefully and beneficially: clearly it should),
whilst the other does._

~~~
bartread
> I don't know much about the lifestyles of their senior employees/leaders -
> maybe it's a televangelist-style Gulfstream-and-champagne-fest, maybe not.

Sadly, if this article is accurate, it may be closer to the above than I'd
thought: [https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/taxpayers-support-
lavish-h...](https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/taxpayers-support-lavish-
hillsong-lifestyle/news-story/25af3a860c70628c874389e90d33917b)

------
nineteen999
Dear World,

we're sorry

\- Australia

(well SOME of us are)

------
zygotic12
Sorry but where are my downvote buttons?

~~~
JshWright
Your account had very low karma. There is a minimum threshold of karma
required in order to down vote (in order to encourage participation in the
conversation, rather than just downvoting topics you don't like).

~~~
zygotic12
Sorry yes understood thanks.

------
paulcarroty
Huh,

tobymac - 26M views
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeBv9r92VQ0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeBv9r92VQ0)

Skillet - 242M views
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mjlM_RnsVE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mjlM_RnsVE)

So, if aggresive/suicidal/depressive music is popular, why christian bands may
be in underground?

