
How to drive in India (2015) - nilsocket
http://theforeignchallenge.com/how_to_drive_in_india/
======
virtualwhys
I visited India for the first time last year, in early March. Spent 2 weeks
traveling by train through the north of India, and then planned on settling in
Rishikesh for 1 month or so.

Rented a scooter and began to experience India roads directly (i.e. not as a
passenger in a taxi/tuk tuk). Was chaotic, but certainly doable if you paid
attention; that is, until a giant black bull cow came charging through
oncoming traffic directly at me.

I steered sharply to my right to avoid getting killed, which was effective in
terms of saving my life, but not so effective in terms of preserving my
ability to walk. Lying in the sweltering hot afternoon sun with a complete
fracture of the hip, a few kind locals dragged me to the side of the road,
where I lost consciousness, leaving this body/mind for some eternal realm that
I cannot describe.

Eventually I came back to this world and an ambulance arrived, whereupon I was
refused surgery at the local hospitals (3 in total) and summarily shipped down
to Delhi on an 8-hour hell ride, with the young drivers smoking hash and
pumping the loudest Indian hip hop to provide some ambiance.

Really, it was the stuff of movies, but it was real life, and somehow I came
through it all -- am more or less back to normal, walking, just with a bunch
of metal in my hip.

In hindsight the entire experience was like India: extreme, full on, and
holding nothing back -- hang on, it's going to be a wild ride :)

~~~
gruez
>whereupon I was refused surgery at the local hospitals (3 in total)

did they say why?

~~~
thisisit
This happens quite frequently because hospitals tend to fear repercussions.

First, they fear the overzealous police who might ask for bribes because they
admitted an accident victim.

Second, they fear mob violence. If even a small thing goes wrong people tend
to go on a rampage - breaking stuff and harassing people.

Third, lack of awareness and general apathy of law. Most cases in India tend
to run for years altogether. So, while there is a legal framework for such
cases many hospitals are not aware of it or they just want to avoid making
court trips for years.

~~~
test1235
> police who might ask for bribes because they admitted an accident victim

I get that police look for any excuse to pick up bribes, but what's the reason
for hassle over accident victims?

~~~
thisisit
Once an accident victim is taken to the hospital a legal case has to be made.
It is called medico legal case. And the hospital needs to inform the nearest
police station. This to ensure that no accident gets brushed under the rug.
Police then has to do an investigation into the matter and find out the exact
details.

if the hospital doesn't draw up a mlc document then they can be sued for
malpractice. But if they do and these things go to court they have to make
multiple appearances to provide details of the case.

This fact is used by the police to pick up bribes.

The interesting thing is that even hospitals are not above trying to extort
people. MLC filings are supposed to be free but hospitals like Apollo etc
charge extra 2-5k to admit a MLC case.

------
thisisit
Couple of things which needs to be added:

Never get into an accident in India. First, if you driving a car mob will
surround and harass you. Second, in case you get away from the mob, police
will come and harass you. And things get worse if they perceive you as an
outsider.

Here's an anecdote which happened with a friend:

While taking one of these mentioned u-turns and ensuring that he was honking
constantly, a bike coming from the wrong side hit his car. A mob quickly
formed and people started abusing him for being a reckless car driver. He
makes it to the accident site with difficulty. There were two people riding
the bike. Both had bruises. But the pillion rider was not wearing a helmet,
something which is against the law in Bangalore.

He took both guys to the hospital. After X-rays and brain CT scan (for the
pillion rider) it turns out the rider was fine with some minor bruising and
gets first aid. But the pillion rider had a fracture. So, the bike rider's
family started to threaten my friend. When he pointed out their mistakes -
coming from wrong side and not wearing a helmet, they change their tactic and
demand money instead.

Now, in India most of the time accident cases are settled on-spot with cash.
Even the authorities, police etc, also force people to settle by paying cash
to avoid work (and they take money from both parties too).

But the amount demanded by family is too high. "You are an IT guy" they tell
my friend which is an euphemism for ultra-rich in Bangalore. My friend refuses
to pay any money and asks for police to be called for due process.

Then these guys started shoving and verbally assaulting him. And because of
the language barrier it is difficult for him to ask anyone nearby for help,
not that anyone wanted to help.

So, he tells them to allow him to go home and get money. He went back and
hired a lawyer to save himself. But, two weeks since, he still gets
threatening calls. Police is not interested in the case and tells him to
settle "amicably".

~~~
jguimont
And that is why when I went there for business, my company insisted on hiring
a driver for the whole month. He was a phone call away and was driving me all
over the place, anywhere I wanted.

(that's also why most politician or people in high places get a driver)

~~~
mothsonasloth
Yea I had a driver when I was in Chennai, it was enjoyable being in an air
conditioned Toyota Landcruiser. Was totally worth the extra £10 a day for the
company expenses :D

~~~
nojvek
Yeah India is a country where there’s so many people that sometimes it’s
shocking to see when they don’t value human life and start squeezing out
everything they can.

Definitely don’t drive in India, get a driver.

------
nlh
I visited India in 2017 and while I didn't get to drive, I spent a lot of time
in cars/tuk-tuks/busses and got a keen sense of the driving conditions.

I actually quite liked them! (I know, this sounds crazy).

It's absolute and utter chaos, but the thing is -- people pay attention.
Drivers are not dazed off listening to a podcast or fixing their makeup or
texting. They're keenly aware of the space around their vehicle and they react
quickly to (the constantly changing) road conditions -- it's a matter of
Darwinian survival.

I actually found driving back in the US more frustrating once I returned.
There's just so much ... indignance. If a car needs to cut across 2 lanes
(which happens!) - other drivers in the US flip out: they lean on the horn,
they shake their fists, they rage. "How dare that driver do something I didn't
expect!"

I think we'd all be better served if we were forced to be more active and
aware while behind the wheel.

~~~
EB66
> It's absolute and utter chaos, but the thing is -- people pay attention.
> Drivers are not dazed off listening to a podcast or fixing their makeup or
> texting.

They might pay more attention on average, but I've seen _plenty_ of distracted
drivers plowing through traffic in India. I've also had "drivers" where I
discovered it was only their second or third time ever driving a car and here
they were driving me through the heart of Mumbai. There's plenty of driver
negligence on Indian roads.

> If a car needs to cut across 2 lanes (which happens!) - other drivers in the
> US flip out: they lean on the horn, they shake their fists, they rage. "How
> dare that driver do something I didn't expect!"

It doesn't matter where you are, abruptly and unexpectedly cutting across two
lanes of busy traffic is dangerous. It doesn't matter if it's the norm in
India -- if it increases the likelihood of an accident, then it's dangerous.
Don't forget that India has 10x the number of traffic fatalities per vehicle
count as the United States and 20x the number as the Netherlands, Germany,
etc.

IMHO, not accepting reckless driving behavior and "flipping out" to let them
know it's not OK is a good thing in moderation.

------
vmarsy
I think in a lot of the situations, there's a simple rule that Indian drivers
follow, which is like motor boats official rules: the biggest vehicle has
priority.

So when it comes to u-turns, cars won't do a u-turn if there's a van or bus
coming from the other side, but a bus will have no problem starting a u-turn
if there's only a flow of cars and motorcycles coming.

Motorcycles are just expected to flow around, make their u-turn small and
fast.

Same thing when it comes to overtaking on small roads, or when there's those
traffic police barricades at the entry/exit of towns, which reduces the road
size to only one way. At those barricades, people will rarely have to come to
a complete stop: they just look at how big the vehicle in front of them is,
and if it's bigger they'll slow down to give it priority.

For overtaking, in Western countries we'd just consider whether there's enough
space/time to safely overtake (unless you're a driver from the mountain
regions), but in India they also consider who would win if there was a frontal
crash, and the would-be loser will slow down if needed to make sure the bigger
vehicle on the other side can finish overtaking.

The equivalent of the sailing boat in term of priority are the cows on the
road: they get priority over any motor vehicle

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>I think in a lot of the situations, there's a simple rule that Indian drivers
follow, which is like motor boats official rules: the biggest vehicle has
priority.

This is how it works everywhere in the world. In any given ship yard small
fork lifts yield to service trucks which yield to semis which yield to large
fork lifts which yield to freight trains yield to ships. It generally works
quite well unless you ask pedestrians and cyclists in wealthier urban areas in
the west (and I say this as someone who rides trains and walks for my
commute).

~~~
alistairSH
Part of the issue with pedestrians, in the US, is they have priority over
cars/buses/etc. I don't believe this is true in many other parts of the world.
As the smallest, easiest to stop/start, and most likely to be injured, they
probably should yield to other users.

~~~
plussed_reader
It actually depends on the locality; stepping off the curb in Vegas or NYC is
your ass on the line.

~~~
alistairSH
Legally, those cars should be yielding (to pedestrians in a cross-walk).[1]
But, as you mentioned, it varies by state, and the laws are rife with "yield
here, but not there, and only on Tuesdays after a full moon." Would probably
be easier to just say "humans are fragile, cross only when it's clear."

1 - [http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/pedestrian-
cross...](http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/pedestrian-
crossing-50-state-summary.aspx)

------
jnty
I can only assume that the people who predict that self-driving cars are just
a few short years away from universal adoption have never visited India!

~~~
rlpb
India already has self driving cars. Hire a car and it comes with a driver,
picking you up from wherever you are. You'll get dropped off where you need to
be and the car will find somewhere to park itself. When you want to go
somewhere else, use your phone and the car will come pick you up, or if where
you are is inconvenient for a pickup for whatever reason, you can find
somewhere suitable, describe where you are, and the car will go there. No need
for a smartphone app - a normal phone will do.

AFIACT, the only practical difference between this story and self-driving cars
is that it involves human labor. However that's cheap in India compared to the
West.

The masses however can't afford cars, let alone self-driving cars.

~~~
rohit2412
USA also has chauffers and Uber drivers. So self driving cars are real?

Your argument is as stupid as it comes. Not everyone is upper class and can
hire a driver.

~~~
vivekseth
Are drivers in India limited to just the upper class? Whenever I visit India
it feels like anyone who’s not lower class can afford to hire a driver.

~~~
truncate
I'm from a middle class family in Delhi, and we never had (or could have)
afforded a driver full time. Maybe now, my father can, but it is still
expensive and not worth it. Most middle class families don't have a driver
IMO. Much more common with upper middle class. However, we did hire driver for
couple of days in rural areas every now and then.

~~~
vivekseth
Do you guys hire other kinds of servants for things like
cooking/cleaning/laundry?

------
paulvs
A couple more from around the world (esp. Paraguay): 1\. To drop a passenger
off where there is no street parking, just turn on your hazard lights and stop
in the middle of the road. 2\. In the seconds before a red light turns green,
the cars behind you will honk to get you moving. 3\. Be prepared for squeegee
men at traffic lights who clean your windscreen for coins even if you say no.
4\. Most city parking spots are controlled by guys who "take care" of your car
while you're away for notes (really your car would be better off without them,
they sometimes scratch your car if you don't pay). 5\. Asphalt streets have
preference over cobble stone. 6\. Speed bumps come in all shapes and sizes
(and are not always marked). 7\. Drove through a pothole? Hey, you should've
been looking where you're going. 8\. Pedestrian crossings (zebra crossings)
have no real significance.

~~~
Synaesthesia
>3\. Be prepared for squeegee men at traffic lights who clean your windscreen
for coins even if you say no. 4. Most city parking spots are controlled by
guys who "take care" of your car while you're away

This so much in South Africa.

~~~
reaperducer
And New York. And Chicago. And Houston (the squeegee guys). At least in the
90's and early 2000's.

Thanks to Lyft and Uber, I rarely drive when I'm in cities anymore, so I don't
know if it's still a thing in the U.S.

~~~
pthomas551
It's not - one of the first things Giuliani did in NYC was get rid of the
squeegee men, and other cities followed suit.

------
Krasnol
Coming from an East European country I thought I've seen it all traveling
through Europe where even Italy didn't bother me. Where I come from, road
traffic is a fight. With hate and madness.

Then I went to Egypt. I've been picked up by a local friend on the Airport at
night and I was shocked that once we came upon one of those north/south
highways, the first thing he did was to turn off the lights! From then on he
used them only to blink at the traffic coming towards us. Which made the whole
situation even worse as it was pitch black outside in the desert. But
everybody seems to be very chilled about it This day I learned: there is real
madness on the roads out there but I'd be happy to witness (and survive it)
all. Especially in India and certain other Asian countries where "driving"
seems to be a different way of flowing with the rest but also somehow similar
to a German Autobahn where you can flow with 200kmh and every small mistake
may be the last one you witness.

~~~
maxxxxx
I would never, ever drive in India. I have driven in Cambodia and Laos and
there traffic was chaotic but pretty slow and you could get used to it. India
is on a whole different level. Chaotic, fast and unpredictable. I wonder what
the accident statistics are. When I was there I saw surprisingly few
accidents.

~~~
frandroid
I don't know the numbers, but anecdotally from the people I know, everyone
seems to know multiple people who have died in traffic accidents. Plus you get
the odd bus falling off a cliff every few months or so...

------
RileyJames
> Expect potholes and unmarked speed breakers almost everywhere! A nice
> flawless looking asphalt road can suddenly surprise you with deep potholes ,
> just like someone has thrown a hand grenades on a road. The more rural you
> go the more extreme it can get. You can even find yourself driving inside a
> pothole which has it’s own potholes in it.

Haha, so true. I remember coming to skidding halt in taxi, in a rural area, at
2am. And directly out of the passenger door, was a pot hole. When I say pot
hole, the entire middle of intersection had been torn up. And at the bottom of
the pot hole were three men fixing a pipe, by the light of a fire.

Of course there were no barriers, signs, tape, nothing to show work was going
on.

~~~
mrath
> Expect potholes and unmarked speed breakers almost everywhere

The worst part is people can build speed breakers at their will with their own
spec. I know a person died because an illegal speed breaker was built with
much more than standard height and no marking. The condition is bad, the
accident rates are much higher and not all accidents are reported.

------
hprotagonist
A friend of mine from Mumbai once turned their car off in the middle of the
road, got out, and left out of sheer frustration.

Apparently, nobody seemed to regard this as particularly unusual.

------
0xmohit
> Often when you are pulled over they will try to find a reason to give you a
> ticket ,even when there seems to be no breach of the traffic law.

So true. The policemen know for sure that they'll manage to find _something_
that'll enable them to ask for a bribe. Even if one were to insist on paying
the fine in case of a real violation, they'll ensure that they don't end up
issuing a ticket and grab money _unofficially_ so that they can pocket it.

> Driving at India is similar like driving all the way with brakes applied.
> It’s slow, unpredictable and tense.

Driving in India is stressful. But walking on the roads is even more so. You
may be walking on a one-way road and suddenly a bike travelling in the wrong
direction might run into you. What's worse is that the guy is more likely to
be abusive than sorry.

------
factsaresacred
There's an extremely readable version of this for Chiang Mai here:
[http://www.chiangmailocator.com/wiki-traffic-rules-in-
thaila...](http://www.chiangmailocator.com/wiki-traffic-rules-in-thailand-and-
how-to-avoid-traffic-accidents-p169)

It's as much a window into Thai culture as it is a guide to driving and
contains a few 'aha' insights for those who've ever been perplexed by some of
the traffic etiquette in Asia.

> _The most important factor that influences all Thai traffic behaviour is
> what I call a Thai driver’s ‘Range of Responsibility’. A Thai driver’s Range
> of Responsibility is what he (should) pay attention to in Thai-style,
> basically it 's all that appears in his eyesight without turning his head._

> _Because of the Range of Responsibility is a Thai driver 's implicit leading
> principle, everything else depends on it. "You're in my sight so I adapt to
> you" is the practical solution that Thai traffic society has adopted._

> _Hindering traffic flows is common....time isn’t as valuable as in Western
> societies, there is less of a hurry, there is no concept of opportunity
> costs, and you’re supposed to adapt and accomodate each other rather than
> claiming your rights._

> _Cutting corners is a habit (or skill!) that Thai people have...the focus is
> not on doing things the correct way, but on getting your things done the
> easier way. Another way to understand this behaviour is to realize that it
> is the flow that goes before the rule...expecting others to stick to the
> rules doesn 't work, you better watch the situation as it occurs and adapt._

> _When you engage in Thai traffic, be prepared to take on a double work load:
> think for yourself but also think for others around you._

> _Sometimes traffic doesn 't flow through and just parks in the middle of the
> intersection. The U-turn is Thailand's response to that, it allows traffic
> to gently blend in with the current flow, in other words: it is the Thai
> alternative to let people interact more harmoniously and it is much more
> suitable to Thai culture than open or guarded intersections._

~~~
reaperducer
_time isn’t as valuable as in Western societies, there is less of a hurry,_

This is the opposite of my experience in Bangkok. We were stuck in a taxi in a
traffic jam and all the cars were honking, and the taxi driver was fuming.

But then Bangkok may be different than Chiang Mai.

------
maDdj
People bend traffic rules all over the world. At some point of time even the
ones commenting has broken a traffic rule or two. With 1.3 billion population
and 1/3 sq ft area to that of US, yes space is a commodity in India. I had
been to Italy and driving there is chaotic as well.New york is another classic
example. People in overpopulated areas develop a sense of competitiveness
which evolves and pushes them to the way things are. If people understood the
basis of the problem than just pointing at the problem, we can all make a
better world together.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
> New york is another classic example

New York driving experience: 90% of the trouble is caused by Uber drivers
(T&LC plated), 9% is caused by yellow cabs. 1% is caused by everyone else.
Those 99% are overwhelmingly immigrants importing their subpar driving culture
into the US.

Driving through the blizzard earlier this year was a dream primarily because
the Ubers were gone.

~~~
subashp
Its survival my friend. Try running your family driving a taxi. May be your
opinion changes then?

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
That's no excuse to threaten other people's safety.

------
asteli
When I was a kid visiting family in Bangalore, a motorcycle hit the rickshaw
we were in. The rickshaw driver and motorcyclist stopped right where they
were, in a large (4-6 lane?) roundabout, and proceeded to argue with each
other for a couple minutes. I still have no idea what they were saying, but
the motorcyclist eventually picked up his bike and left in a huff. For his
part, the rickshaw driver got back in, kicked a huge dent out of the sheet
metal on his rickshaw, and we set off again.

------
stephenhuey
Having lived in Nigeria while growing up (and specifically Lagos part of that
time), I've always been proud of how remarkably exciting it can be to drive
there. My pride swelled considerably when a friend who grew up in India and
also lived in Cairo and other places told me after visiting Nigeria that Lagos
had the wildest driving he had ever seen! As crazy as some find it to be, just
like in many similar places, the drivers seem to find a rhythm to work
together quickly, communicate whereabouts by horn frequently, and thus avoid
accidents more than one might expect.

*edit: "find it to be"

------
onetimemanytime
>> _How to drive in India_

So don't drive, hire someone. The worst thing for a stranger is to have an
accident in such places, between the family of the "victim" and the police
you'll be royally screwed.

~~~
jplayer01
Even if you're not driving, you may be screwed just because you're a foreigner
and you're in the car, but yeah, why would you ever drive in a place like
this?

------
kelvin0
Road rage must be rampant? Or is there a (implied socially) hierarchy which
prevents this most of the time?

~~~
truncate
Power matters more than money I believe. Considerable number of people are
tempered on road (correlates with education background and kind of jobs they
do). So if they think they can harass you, they probably will. You may be
rich, but if you don't look that physically strong or they feel you probably
don't have support of goons or police (which most regular engineer like me
wouldn't), be ready to exchange bunch of verbal abuses or potential fist
fight.

------
npmn2
Ok, I learned to drive in Kanpur, infamous for drivers not following anything.
Driving around there, you felt alive as you needed to constantly scan the road
for potholes, unpredictable vehicles, unannounced speed bumps, running
pedestrians, animals and high beam oncoming traffic with no lane separation.
Bad Side, driving in other cities has painfully boring and an easy task for
me, as you now have lesser variables to worry about.

~~~
mayankkaizen
Kanpur fellow here.

People here wouldn't realize that the situation in Kanpur is far worse than
one would guess from description. :)

------
pretty_dumm_guy
I was recently in India and I noticed something that troubled me. The traffic
signals change on opposite ends very quickly without giving the other side
some time to adapt.

For e.g, When there is a change from green to red at one end, there must be a
time gap in order to make sure all the vehicles have cleared the passage
before changing the signal from red to green at the other end. This doesn't
seem to be the case. I saw at least three minor accidents happen because of
this in a time span of four days while I was in India few weeks ago.

As trivial as it may sound, I think it would help regulate the traffic more if
they implement a better traffic signal system which takes this into account.

~~~
toast0
Having sufficient time where all sides are red in order to clear the
intersection is very useful for safety when traffic is flowing quickly and
when drivers will wait for a green light and check if it's safe to enter an
intersection. From my experience as a passenger in vehicles in Bangalore for a
week around 2010, traffic was rarely flowing fast enough to make a difference;
and I would expect a significant amount of traffic to treat red in all
directions as an invitation to enter the intersection; especially motorcycles
and autorickshaws.

Quote from the article:

> Do not assume that traffic lights will keep order on junctions. Red light is
> just a beautiful color which makes everyday life little more colorful.

------
NTDF9
This really is a great opportunity for an enterprising youngster or a
foreigner to start a consulting company to bring rules into the driving
system.

The way to approach this is: 1\. Create a company, build a small DB of rules
in UK (the closest road cousin to India), Australia and US. Maybe Hongkong to
understand dense cities

2\. Get estimates of costs required to stripe lanes, put traffic lights, green
road signs

3\. Make a list of 10 rich cities/municipalities. Approach their roadworks
dept and propose a plan

4\. Profit

Developing countries these days are willing to throw money at this. They just
want someone to do it efficiently and at low cost.

To see how this worked before, look at Jakarta, Indonesia.

~~~
mlboss
I am not sure if you are joking. There are road signs, stripe lanes and
everything else that you mentioned in India. There are laws for everything.
The problem is nobody follows them. What is missing is enforcement of those
laws. No startup can do that. It has to come from government.

~~~
NTDF9
I'm not joking. A major part of reckless driving there is just that no one
knows what lanes are meant for. Having more striped lanes, better traffic
lights and yes, better enforcement on wheels would help.

But an entire population wouldn't learn what it means to drive in a lane
unless there are real lanes. Simple as that.

------
akshayB
The tick is to keep a small rectangular buffer zone around you and just go
with the flow. Since no one follows any rules or traffic laws you keep an eye
open and always be prepares to adjust based on what others are about to do.

------
gwbas1c
The author didn't mention anything about seat belts.

The first time I got in a car when I landed in India, I had to insist that my
driver pull out the seat belts. I don't think he even knew what the seat belts
were for!

~~~
truncate
I'm mainly lived in Delhi, and haven't been any other big city. Although it is
common in smaller towns/cities to not wear seat belts, but in Delhi you
definitely do, and there is fairly good chance you will get caught.

------
sriacha
One of the most dangerous things I ever did was drive a motorcycle in India,
with no almost no previous motorcycle driving experience. Exhilarating and
very stupid.

------
jotm
I don't get it, if there's laws, but no one follows them, isn't that a great
opportunity to make a lot of money off of everyone? It may go to the
government, it may be pocketed, but it would teach everyone to fucking respect
the traffic laws.

------
known
Avoid driving at night;

