

Ask HN: How do you find "coders with families" in the Bay Area? - danpinto

I&#x27;ve read very often on HN about the coders that get rejected from or reject startup jobs because entrepreneurs have unrealistic expectations of work hours (80+) from employees.<p>When I post my jobs for engineers #1 and #2 for my startup, I keep getting younger less experienced coders that are willing to work those unrealistic hours. I don&#x27;t seem to get those &quot;coders with families&quot; even applying to my jobs. Have they been scared off?<p>Is this happening because it is a small venture-backed startup, so crazy hours&#x2F;dedication are implied? How do I shake that impression?<p>Is it a function of the skills requested? (1 Ruby data collection and 1 Rails)<p>I would much rather get those experienced coders that will want to work 40 hours. That&#x27;s plenty of time to get a ton done and if they don&#x27;t get enough accomplished in that time it&#x27;s probably my fault as the CTO.<p>Have you guys had any luck with certain methods to reach those guys specifically? I want to somehow express that it is ok to have work-life balance but not end up with lazy candidates. My co-founder and I will of course continue to work those 80+ hours but that makes sense because we are the founders.<p>Any advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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dzink
Experienced developers have to weigh-in 150k + great benefits for their
families at established tech companies their family can brag about vs mostly
unstable jobs at thousands of small companies nobody knows about. Experience
may also mean they've been burned by promises at least once before. For every
early employee at Facebook there are hundreds in the Valley who never saw the
upside. If you are looking outside of SV a developer with a family would need
a house and housing is expensive - so salary would matter a lot.

I am a tech founder too, and all of the above just reminds me this is a race.
You have to be better to survive, so pick something that your company offers
that is better than the rest. Culture? Team? Product? Mission? An odd perk? A
brand reputation?

When all else fails, look at Wall Street. Most New York finance jobs are
terrible at all non-tangible criteria anyone would have for a job, so they
catch smart people with higher salaries and burn through them by the
thousands.

I've found the best hires are referrals of your best people. If someone you
respect is already working for you and they refer someone they respect to you
that is a big sign you are doing something right.

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nols
Just state "40 hour workweek" as a pro if you're running job ads. There might
be a different problem though if you're only getting young inexperienced
applicants, are you offering a high enough salary and going through the right
channels? Most experienced programmers/engineers use their networks to find
jobs instead of looking through ads, maybe use your network or LinkedIn to
find employees. There's also the possibility that they don't want to shoulder
the risk of having to find another job soon if your venture goes belly-up.
You're looking to fill a risky job with someone who isn't really in a position
to take a risk.

Be somewhat careful how you word your ad, age discrimination is a thing and
you just want to avoid any appearances that will make a rejected applicant
think about getting a lawyer involved.

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cschmidt
I think you said it quite nicely here. Why not just say the same thing in your
job ad?

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danpinto
Thanks. I guess I am concerned with the founding team not seeming hardworking
enough to succeed.

I think I may just end up doing that as a test. Thanks again.

~~~
cschmidt
You should just say that directly then. Something along the lines of...

"Us founders are blitzing 80+ hours a week. If you're young and energetic,
come join us. However, we'd also like the wisdom and experience of someone
more senior. We understand you have a family and will need more life balance,
and we're very cool with that."

I'd find that refreshing in a job ad. I'm 42 with a family, btw.

~~~
toomuchtodo
"Our team is passionate and growing quickly. Perks include a healthy work/life
balance."

~~~
borplk
Meh "a healthy work/life balance" to me is a pre-condition. If you use that
phrase with the word 'perks' in the same sentence I'm moving on...

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timsaunders
I think everyone in the company, at an early stage, should have a mindset of
ensuring things are getting done, rather then working X number of hours. It
should never be about the number of hours your working - some weeks it may be
100 hours, then some weeks it may be 30 hours. It should always be about
building a great company and finding those people that are passionate about
the same, family or not. Also, it is discrimination to actually not accept
candidates based on whether they have kids or not. We never ask
family/personal related questions in our interviews, as it is against the law
to do so.

~~~
oppositelock
As one of those older, experienced coders with a family, I'll tell you right
now that statements like "it should never be about the number of hours your
[sic] working" immediately sets off my skepticism. Part of having a family is
that you have responsibilities outside of work, and these are not
responsibilities you can change easily like a job. You can't honestly commit
to a job with open ended hours requirements. You can occasionally do long work
weeks and sacrifice your family, but that builds a relationship debt you must
pay back in the future, so it'll happen very sporadically.

I've been around silicon valley for two decades. I know how fast I work, how
startups work, and how to contribute to a team. I know that if you hire me as
an individual contributor, I will be ahead of you in line for equity losses
and behind you in line for financial rewards, which affects my motivation. If
I'm doing my own startup, then the situation is entirely different and I will
move heaven and earth to get the job done, and try to make it work with my
family, but this isn't something that can be carried on too long without
burning out.

One day, you will find that even when people pull 100 hour weeks willingly,
they stop being effective at half that load, and end up making mistakes from
exhaustion. They slowly burn out, quit, get cranky, and you have big emotional
explosions at work about the workload. If you want your company to succeed,
and retain good people, you have to find a way not to burn out your people,
and this applies to any age. Crunches shouldn't last more than a couple weeks
and should be an exception to the norm.

