
Don't Give Up on the Guitar, Fender Is Begging You - andyjsong
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-21/don-t-give-up-on-the-guitar-fender-is-begging-you
======
jasode
_> Almost everyone who picks up a guitar, about 90 percent, abandons it within
the first year, according to Mooney._

I'd guess that a similar 90+% of beginners quit the clarinet, violin, piano,
drums, etc.

If the macro trend of hobbyist guitar playing has declined, I think it's
correlated with its lack of prominence in current music.

For curiosity's sake, I just clicked through the top songs on Billboard Hot
100 chart[1]. As of today November 22, 2016, the top 20 songs do not have any
obvious guitars. It's all synths, electronic beats, and other artificial sound
effects. The first song with obvious guitars is the country song "May We All"
by Florida Georgia Line sitting at position 30.

In previous decades with higher guitar sales, you had the popularity of 50s
Elvis, 60s Beatles, 70s Led Zeppelin, 80s hair metal bands, 90s Nirvana, etc.
It's easier for guitar novices to stay motivated _when everything on the radio
had lots of guitars in it_. At the moment, the zeitgeist is electronic music
until guitars make a comeback in mainstream pop. However, it's possible
guitars will never become fashionable again and will recede further into
isolated genres like country and folk music.

[1][http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100](http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100)

~~~
dominotw
>I'd guess that a similar 90+% of beginners quit the clarinet, violin, piano,
drums, etc.

I blame this soley on how piano is taught. Instead of focusing on music and
sound, music teachers try to teach note names, sitting posture, curving your
hands ect. You are sent of with the impression that you'd need years of daily
practice to be half decent. This is an immediate turn-off. I want to play
music, not memorize ridiculous memory tricks like ' every good boy does fine'
.

I would imagine most people are trying to make new music and play existing
music. 99% of ppl are not trying to become professional pianist. Yet music
teachers just teach how they have been taught, with endless instructions about
keeping your back straigt, keeping the curve in your fingers ect. This makes
one feel like they are not "cut out" for music and they give up .

We need a new crop of music teachers that can take advantage of new midi
instruments, iphone apps ect to teach music. Piano should be introduced much
later one you have grasped the how notes sound, how chords sound, why you need
them ect on a simpler interface instead of endless repetitions of twinkle,
twinkle from day one. Classical music should _not_ be taught to a hobbyist.
Instruction should be fun from day one, you should be making new music from
day one. Endless learning of grammar doesn't make one a good author.

~~~
jeremiep
I strongly disagree. What you're suggesting leads to really mediocre practice
and that in the long run will get people to give up because they've reached a
plateau they set upon themselves without realizing it.

Your teachers know and understand stuff you're years away from grasping as a
beginner. Its not about being "professional" but rather having the proper
foundations upon which you can build knowledge and muscle memory. Its about
spending the least amount of effort at any point in your practice so it
becomes actually effective. Its about having a logical progression where each
new concept adds up to existing knowledge (music theory is VERY well
structured in that regard.)

I personally dread that new crop of teachers using MIDI/apps to teach music.
This is anything but teaching music - its teaching MIDI and apps. You dont
learn to ride a bike by downloading an app or playing "bike simulator" \- its
just obvious.

Saying "endless learning of grammar" and other forms of "oh god, I have to put
in effort?!" mentalities show off a very shallow understanding of the domain -
this is what you expect a teenager to say when looking at his courses because
he's years away from understanding why they're useful. Sorry to sound harsh
but its just how it comes out as.

~~~
xraystyle
I had two of the world's worst piano teachers as a young kid. Everything was
exactly the boring nonsense in the parent comment. There was honestly more
focus on posture than on actually making sound come out of the piano.

The songs I had to learn were obscure classical pieces. It was all so
horrifically boring, and GOD FORBID if I ever just sat down at the piano and
played around, making sound that interested me or trying to replicate
something I heard on the radio. That was "unstructured time" on the instrument
and was counterproductive to "real" practice.

I absolutely hated every single second of it, and finally quit in a huge
blowout fight with my mom when I was about 9 years old, and just refused to
keep playing.

As a teenager, I taught myself to play bass, and spent my 20's playing in
bands, working in music, touring and all that good stuff. I still play bass
and guitar constantly and I've never had any formal instruction in either
instrument, but honestly I really wish I had kept playing the piano. The
problem was, the way kids are taught, the same way I was, seems designed to
make it as repellent as humanly possible.

It would be so easy to make piano interesting, and more importantly, FUN to
practice and play, but the old-school approach, making kids play garbage they
have no interest in, yelling at them over and over about sitting up straight,
is the worst possible way to go about it.

~~~
jeremiep
That pretty much sums up what I said earlier: your teachers know and
understand things you're years away from grasping.

They don't put you through all that out of some perverted wish to make you
suffer. They do because they know what's at the other end of that practice.

I do agree not all teachers are good teachers (if you get yelled at, you
DEFINITELY have a mediocre teacher) - teaching is first and foremost about
transmitting a passion, then explaining the theory which holds it up. And in
order to do so you've got to figure out what your student's interests are.

~~~
xraystyle
But see, that's the point I'm trying to make. Having the benefit of hindsight
as someone who actually went on to recording records and regularly playing
live in front of paying audiences, my teachers were focused on ENTIRELY the
wrong things.

You get people interested in the instrument first by giving them a taste of
how they can actually play things they like. Let them explore and have fun.
Point out problems they might have with technique, but do it within the
framework of getting them where THEY want to be, playing what THEY want to
play.

Don't force focus on theory and reading sheet music. When you're a kid who
just wants to play something cool that shit is boring and it sucks. Once you
get a handle on the instrument and really get passionate about it the theory
end starts to become interesting on its own.

Seriously, these teachers didn't know a damn thing I don't know now, and
there's a much better way to go about this.

~~~
jeremiep
Theres probably a better way to go through it, but at some point you HAVE to
learn the language. Theory and reading sheet music are incredibly important
(more so than most people realize) especially if you'd like to have a large
musical repertoire.

> You get people interested in the instrument first by giving them a taste of
> how they can actually play things they like.

That can work, but its very dangerous for the student to develop bad habits in
doing so - which are then next to impossible to undo to learn the proper
method required to play effortlessly. My first year in music school was
basically unlearning everything I learned before. Not fun. I saw a lot of
people giving up right there.

Learning to read and write text is boring and sucks, yet absolutely nobody
will argue its useless. Once you realize the world of possibilities knowing
how to read/write opens - you forget it was a pain to learn. You're even
thankful for the people who forced you to learn it. Everyone learns it, even
if only a handful push it all the way to university as their major.

Music should be the same, it looks alien to teach theory and posture because
its not the norm like teaching how to read is. But when you think about it
people saw reading the very same way when only the elite had access to this
knowledge. Promoting a culture of anti-intellectualism does nobody a service.

> Seriously, these teachers didn't know a damn thing I don't know now

I very highly doubt that, simply because its impossible for you to know what
they knew, and they most likely knew a whole lot more than they made it seem
when teaching you.

~~~
analog31
I'm a fluent sight reader, and it does figure into the kind of work that I get
hired for, even as a part time musician without a music degree.

I used to look down on non-readers, but have had to re-think that attitude,
simply due to the reality of how music gets played by a lot of people.

But the parent is talking about the electric bass, which I also play. There
are plenty of successful electric bassists who never read a single dot off a
page. A lot of music is performed without having a written bass part, or
improvised from abbreviated notations such as chord charts, Nashville numbers,
etc.

Also, it's hard to get motivated to learn reading, when your preferred genre
has no written repertoire. Written charts are used in the studio, but seldom
by working bands.

A problem with reading is that it's a long learning curve -- especially for
adults who already know how to play -- and not much use for it unless you can
do it at a fairly advanced level and seek out work that requires it. So, the
so called "reader gigs" are covered by a cadre of players who specialize in
that kind of work, including myself.

As a jazz musician, I live in two worlds. When I play in larger ensembles, or
bands that have heavily composed / arranged repertoire, then I do a lot of
reading. But when it's a jazz combo playing standards, I don't even bring a
music stand.

------
cyberferret
There are two distinct marketplaces for guitars, and almost any musical
instrument. There is the 'beginner' level, which is basically school aged
children where parents may purchase a guitar for them for school, or private
lessons. This is where most big chain music stores aim at.

Then there is the high end collector market, who spend the big bucks, and
often purchase multiple guitars to stash away. Most guitar companies (such as
Fender) try to become the 'be all and end all' across this range. Fender do
have a high end custom shop to cater for the more wealthy or boutique market,
but at the end of the day, they are spread pretty thin with their Mexican
range, USA Standard range, Custom shop range etc.

The biggest problem with the low end market is that kids these days just don't
seem to realise the work ethic required to become proficient at guitar. I've
played for over 40 years, I have two young sons who play, and I have done some
teaching. Lots of kids seem to think that they can be playing at a performance
level after only a couple of lessons (perhaps Guitar Hero has something to do
with that?), and they quickly become disenchanted and lose interest once they
realise the gruelling (boring) practice routine that they have to repeat over
and over again in order to build muscle memory etc.

But for a lot of beginners who approach me, I try and model the same thing I
do when learning a new programming language, i.e. the best way to learn -
REALLY learn - a new language is to actually build something with it. Which is
why I find that it is useful to get a kid to tell me his favourite song, and
just work out the melody or the riff to the song and build on that, just to
keep their interest going and make the inconvenience of the other exercises
less of a burden.

The world is also sadly lacking in 'guitar heroes' these days. Not the game,
but actual players. Guys like Hendrix, Page and Clapton inspired kids in the
60's and 70's. Van Halen etc. in the 80's, but then the guitar solo ceased to
be a central 'thing' in most bands. Modern guitar players like Joe Bonamassa,
Guthrie Govan or Julian Lage etc. just don't pull the crowds in like they used
to.

~~~
jeremysmyth
_" There are two distinct marketplaces for guitars, and almost any musical
instrument. There is the 'beginner' level, which is basically school aged
children... Then there is the high end collector market, who spend the big
bucks"_

This is missing out the vast midrange of working musicians (or erstwhile
working musicians who still play a lot privately).

In the Fender world, collectors might buy old or particularly prestigious
models, but your standard MIA Strat is a working guitar that won't necessarily
appreciate in value but isn't typically bought by beginners (or collectors,
for that matter). Same with many other brands (such as those you'd see played
by guitar bands); while Ibanez or Jackson might have a relatively cheap model
aimed at beginners, they also make rock-solid working guitars that you see
played in your local bar or club, or in studio, or on stadium stages, but not
in a collector's vault.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
There are more like four segments.

Musical toys - things like Guitar Hero. Instant gratification, very limited
musical content.

Entry-level instruments - cheap-ish, poor quality, fine for beginners,
basically disposable because they're (ironically) difficult to play and don't
sound great.

Prosumer instruments - some minor compromises, not particularly affordable,
but not so insanely expensive they're out of the reach of anyone who really
wants/needs them. This notch covers a range from good enough to rather fine.

High-end professional and collector instruments - no compromise, nicely
finished, often insanely overpriced. The good ones can raise production values
a notch or two over the prosumer level, but they're utterly wasted on anyone
with average talent. The silly ones are just for show and bragging rights.

The MI firms love collectors because they'll drop five figures on instruments
they can't really play. And they'll do it over and over.

Meanwhile name professionals tend to get handed prosumer or sometimes
collector instruments for free as part of an endorsement deal or even just on
the off-chance the item will appear in a photo. (I used to know a film
composer before he moved to Hollywood, and he was always getting offered the
latest gear for nothing, even before he was that big a name.)

~~~
CWuestefeld
_Entry-level instruments - cheap-ish, poor quality, fine for beginners,
basically disposable because they 're (ironically) difficult to play and don't
sound great._

I suspect this is one of the reasons for the cited 90% quit rate. If it's
something you're not sure you'll have an aptitude for or even like, you're
probably not going to invest much in your first guitar. But the result of that
is an instrument that's far more difficult to get to make nice sounds. AFAIK,
guitar is the worst for this - other instruments at the entry level might not
have great sound, but aren't going to be downright hard to play.

~~~
vkjv
This! 1000x this! One of the most frustrating things about learning an
instrument is that it initially sounds terrible and you feel like you will
never get it. If you have a low quality instrument and are inexperienced, you
honestly cannot tell if it is you or the guitar.

This is why I heartily recommend to anyone trying to learn to pick-up a mid-
range guitar used. You get much higher quality and the price is usually
comparble to a "cheap" beginner one.

------
alexander-edge
I've recently got back into playing after a 10 year break. Back then I was
learning from tablature online displayed in monospaced font, the quality of
which varied from _nothing like the music_ to _pretty good_.

Today, I find not a lot has changed, except the sites where I used to go to
find tablature are now charging for the same material.

I'd like to pay for quality transcription of music (like the official music
books) but available online or in an app.

~~~
wodenokoto
I haven't played for about 10 years as well, and I fondly remember the ascii
tabs.

But maybe you never found the alternative, which was a program that was
basically a midi player that display all chords and notes in timed bars and
play the music, with all the instruments split up.

You always knew the quality was good, since you could have the computer play
the track to check it out before practising.

I don't remember what program I used back then, but this looks like a
spiritual descendant, though I am not recommending anything:

* [https://www.guitar-pro.com/en/index.php](https://www.guitar-pro.com/en/index.php)

~~~
tpoindex
For an open source multi-track tab player/composer, check out TuxGuitar. It
reads several popular tab formats. Sound depends on underlying MIDI system,
may require a little futzing to get going. Written in Java, runs on
Windows/Linux/OSX.

[http://www.tuxguitar.com.ar/](http://www.tuxguitar.com.ar/)

------
DanielStraight
If you're interested in guitar, it's worth looking at some music from West
Africa. A lot of music from that region (at least a lot of what gets exported
as "world music") relies heavily on guitar. Maybe the renaissance of the
guitar just won't happen in the US / Western Europe.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvVe1iKltAw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvVe1iKltAw)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gINDDDo3do8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gINDDDo3do8)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW1s84p17ec](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW1s84p17ec)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cimqPFZvo4c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cimqPFZvo4c)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7My5IpEzVM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7My5IpEzVM)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhL_asWgVTg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhL_asWgVTg)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4-uq8cTF7o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4-uq8cTF7o)

~~~
lcbiazon
Bombino is amazing:
[https://youtu.be/J2slSNR0d1A?t=11m49s](https://youtu.be/J2slSNR0d1A?t=11m49s)

------
mrkgnao
> And people quit electric guitars more often than acoustic ones, he said,
> because of the pain factor: Steel strings hurt delicate hands.

Huh? I can only imagine that they meant s/acoustic/classical/, because both
acoustics and electrics have steel strings (and, of course, steel strings on
an acoustic have significantly higher tension than those on an electric).
Classicals have nylon strings.

~~~
rglullis
Most people that play on electric would use a pick, while on acoustic guitar
there is more finger-picking involved, no?

~~~
robotmlg
True, but finger picking doesn't really hurt your fingers (or at least it
never has for me, a guitar player of 14 years now). It's definitely pressing
on the strings with your left hand that's the pain point for pretty much every
budding guitarist I've ever talked to.

~~~
rglullis
Funny, for me it's always the right hand that hurts when playing steel-
stringed guitar.

I think it is because I don't have particularly strong nails, so they always
broke very close to the flesh, so I'd have to do fingerpicking with my actual
fingertips.

Most of the pain on the left hand, in contrast, was related to lack of muscle
strength. After a few days of practicing it would be gone.

~~~
mrob
>I don't have particularly strong nails

How much sunlight exposure do you get? My fingernails were also very weak
until I started supplementing vitamin D, which made them grow noticeably
thicker and stronger. I think a lot of people here spend most of their time
indoors so they're at higher risk of vitamin D deficiency.

------
paublyrne
_And people quit electric guitars more often than acoustic ones, he said,
because of the pain factor: Steel strings hurt delicate hands._

I would say electric guitar is more comfortable for most people than acoustic,
even nylon, as the actions tends to be harder.

~~~
mping
True, but imho only after a couple of weeks. In the beginning, the metal feels
really sharp!

~~~
laumars
It's common to wire acoustic guitars with steel strings too. The problem with
acoustic guitars is the fretboard. With acoustic you need to press down harder
and further to get a clean sound than you would with an electric guitar.

Anecdotally I found acoustic guitars to hurt my fingers more than electric -
both wired with steel strings. Yet to play with nylon.

------
niix
Discovering guitar is the greatest thing that ever happened to me. I was
gifted a guitar at a very young age and haven't been able to put it down since
then. Through high school and college I played in various local bands and now
it serves as a daily therapy session. In fact, while I'm trying to figure out
a complex problem (I work as a software engineer) I often pick up my guitar
for inspiration.

~~~
6stringmerc
If you'd like some affirmation that having music in your life is likely a very
constructive habit, I think you might enjoy reading about how fond Albert
Einstein was of playing his violin.

------
racl101
Another way to view this is the reward at the end of the rainbow.

Back in the '60s and probably all the way to the '90s. There was a reward for
young men to pick up that guitar.

If you played it enough and you got good, you could be a rockstar. And, yes, I
suppose you have to start at the bottom, playing in small bands and doing gigs
for peanuts but you could work your way to the top and be successful.

I can't imagine that incentive exists anymore for the average kid who doesn't
love the idea of playing guitar for the joy of being a musician, but rather,
for the promise of fame, money and girls. Especially if they are ugly dudes,
like the members of Kiss, or Ted Nugent or all the guys from Metallica, or
Tommy Lee etc, etc.

Which means, so what if you learned to play the guitar and you learned it
well? How lucrative is it to be a lead guitarist these days? Do you have a
good chance of getting a sweet record deal as a guitarists these days? Or will
you be relegated to be the in the background, letting all your talent and
potential be squandered playing pop song arrangements for Selena Gomez and
Ariana Grande? Well either that or you can remain indie, beloved by many
people whose financial support barely sustains you and always obscured by the
shiny pop talent.

I think the modern version of the rockstar today is the DJ. It's much more
rewarding to learn to be a DJ (or a producer for that matter) and whether it
be for the fame, the money or the girls.

------
pcsanwald
One thing that isn't often pointed out is that most music making is a social
activity. Everyone I know that has stuck with music throughout their lives has
actively played in bands/groups/ensembles. There's a misconception that music
requires a lot of solitary practice before playing in groups.

I'd hazard a guess that most people don't stick with guitar because they don't
have anyone to jam with. As a kid, I started playing in bands way before I got
serious about practicing music as a discipline, and most musicians I know fall
into this category.

I am not trying to undervalue the benefit of practice: in my 20s I practiced
3-6 hours a day pretty much every day. But, that was long after I had been
working professionally as a musician and playing in bands.

------
exabrial
What frustrates me about Fender and Marshall is a 100% dedication to "WE ONLY
DO THINGS THE WAY THEY DID IN 1970" and 0 innovation in their amplifier and
guitar designs.

Granted the 1970s set the bar of what good "guitar tone" sounds like, but no
one has even tried to raise the bar as far as making it even better. As a
result we still amplifiers that create blocking distortion, and we still have
guitars that have intonation problems, and we still have guitars that pick up
electrical noise. And why can't I change my amplifier settings from my
pedalboard? That's some clever Adruino programming and some digital
potentiometers.

None of these are particularly hard problems to solve, but it's frustrating as
and engineer and musician to be stuck in another world.

Everything above is an opinion, not a fact, so take as you will.

------
ilamont
I heard an interesting theory (alluded to in the story) that high-quality PC
and console videogames caused a seismic shift beginning in the 1990s, as teens
gravitated to an immersive, often collaborative indoor activity. If gaming (or
apps, social media, whatever) are drawing away a large population of teens,
not only are fewer people picking up a guitar or drumsticks but the number of
available local bandmates declines, further weakening the allure of playing
music. It makes a big difference if you have friends who also play. If your
peers aren't doing it, music is more likely to be a solo activity which is not
as much fun.

Another factor: from the 1950s to the early 2000s pop music heroes more often
than not could also play guitar. I grew up in the 80s, and learned to play
bass starting at age 16 by intently listening to cassettes of The Beatles,
Who, Led Zep, U2, REM and the Sex Pistols so I could play with my friends and
explore a new dimension of the music I loved. I was never a hotshot player,
but did play in lots of cover and original bands through my late teens and 20s
and some of my best friends today are people I played with decades ago.

My tween & teen kids have almost no interest in guitar-based pop music,
although my daughter's middle school music curriculum included a segment on
"90s music" which later prompted her to ask me, "Dad, did you know there was a
song about a sweater unraveling?" (man, that made me feel old). They do listen
to modern-day pop music, though, and sometimes to pop from previous decades
that is not guitar-centric (Michael Jackson, etc.)

On the other hand, the apps and other tools that are now available to everyone
--not to mention the ability to connect with like-minded people--can spark
different types of musical creativity, collaboration, and insights. I did a
double take a few months ago while listening to a radio special about Philip
Glass and my son casually remarked that one of his pieces from the late 1960s
"sounds like 'My Singing Monsters'." I hope my kids do get interested in
creating music and find an opportunity to collaborate, but I accept that it
may not involve rock music.

------
closeparen
I wonder how instruments will fare in the "raise your family in a downtown
studio apartment" world advocated here.

Instruments take space, and some amount of separation from neighbors (and
other household members) seems necessary for practicing to be socially
acceptable.

How does children's music practice work in tiny apartments with paper-thin
walls? Do European parents rent space in communal practice rooms or something?

~~~
Grishnakh
A guitar doesn't take up much physical space, but if you want to play with
amplification, the noise issue does become a big factor. It is possible,
however, to play with headphones, so that your neighbors won't hear you at
all.

~~~
Grishnakh
I'll also add that with an electric guitar, it's totally normal to practice
without amplification. If you're playing non-distorted parts, and your room is
quiet, and you're not totally deaf, an unamplified electric guitar is loud
enough to be heard well, while not being loud enough to be heard outside the
room. Playing distorted parts doesn't work so well, however, because you can't
really hear all the harmonics very well without the amplifier, and the
distortion changes the sound so much.

------
sqldba
I've had a metallic blue electric guitar for ten years now.

Bought so many beginner materials and they're fucking awful. I can't
understand jack shit.

The closest I got to sticking to anything were the eMedia programs, at least
the acoustic one. I bought the metal one but I'm not sure it works anymore on
current Macs and I didn't want to rebuy it.

Bought a piano and the situation is even more dire.

Music is awful for self teaching. Absolutely awful.

~~~
slazaro
Buy Rocksmith, plug your guitar into the PC, and see if you get addicted to
playing 1h+ a day like I did. You'll learn fast.

~~~
acomjean
I second the Rocksmith recommendation. Its basically RockBand with real
instruments.

I play bass with Rocksmith. I play 2 player with my partner (she plays
guitar). Its a lot of fun and you do get better.

As a plus the cable doubles as a generic 1/4 plug to usb interface you can use
with a lot of software.

Rocksmith has video tutorials as well.

------
Noseshine
In this context, I would like to recommend the _excellent_ lecture series
about the history of the guitar captured on video offered by Gresham College
and Professor Christopher Page. They are very entertaining, with lots of
historic background stories! It is mostly about England but the rest of the
world is mentioned to give context.

"Men, Women and Guitars in Romantic England"

[http://www.gresham.ac.uk/series/men-women-and-guitars-in-
rom...](http://www.gresham.ac.uk/series/men-women-and-guitars-in-romantic-
england/)

 _(I almost didn 't find the video - it's at the top of each lecture page, I
thought that's a static image.)_

The lectures are also available on their Youtube channel:
[https://www.youtube.com/user/GreshamCollege/videos](https://www.youtube.com/user/GreshamCollege/videos)

    
    
      > ...it has been almost universally forgotten that there was an intense guitar craze in England 
      > between about 1800 and 1835, spanning the lifetimes of Keats, Byron, Shelley and Coleridge, and a 
      > craze whose history has never been traced. Histories of English music and society in the 
      > nineteenth century continue to be written as if it never happened, and yet the instrument was 
      > cultivated from the royal family in the person of Princess Charlotte (d. 1817) down to the 
      > poorest laundress.
    
      > This is much more than the story of an instrument and its music: the rise of romanticism, the 
      > creation of an urban poor hungry for self improvement, the proliferation of newspapers, 
      > serialised fiction and printed sheet music, the social position of women and other aspects of 
      > English society and culture in the wake of the Napoleonic Wars all have a place within it.

~~~
FiatLuxDave
Awesome, thank you for posting this.

------
arkaic
Have been playing guitar off and on for over five years, no musical training.
I found the best way to keep playing is to play along to songs you know, and
routinely practice them every day. Hours go by without you even noticing, it's
great.

What's hard, though, are things like actually moving to the next step. Are you
even practicing correctly, continually pushing yourself to new heights, or are
you defaulting to the riffs or melodies that you like to play because they're
easier?

The hardest part for me, currently, is trying to learn music theory on my own.
I've tried getting into the creative side, writing songs and melodies, but so
far, that process isn't very fun at all because of my lack of knowledge in
scales, chords, and progressions.

~~~
jamestnz
> The hardest part for me, currently, is trying to learn music theory on my
> own

As someone who is currently learning piano and music theory as an adult, I can
recommend the youtube channel of Shawn Cheek. This guy has posted something
like 3000 videos on various piano and music theory subjects. A good starting
point would be his series on the Circle of Fifths
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdF-
uIeM33o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdF-uIeM33o)

I find this guy to be an excellent teacher, I like his teaching style, and
could listen to his accent all day :)

------
silveira
I play some instruments, including a semi-hollow electric guitar. I live in an
apartment, so I have to carefully control the volume and which hours I play, I
think this is a major difficulty for music in general nowadays.

The electric guitar requires an amplifier, and to use an amplifier in a low
volume requires strict discipline. Sometimes I use over-ears headphones which
while gives me a more clean sound it does not have the same feeling, and you
cannot share the music with other people. It's specially bad when I'm playing
with other people.

Apartments/Condos in US have paper-thin walls, they are becoming more common,
it creates an extra difficultly to learn to play instruments, specially drums,
bass and electric guitars.

~~~
6stringmerc
The trouble you describe is, kid you not, one of the foundations for the
technique Wes Montgomery developed of brushing with his thumb.

I can genuinely say that for about $100 a person can get a PC or Mac sound
card that enables 1/4" guitar line-in, probably comes with ProSumer level amp
modeling and a DAW license, a set of headphones, and explore a world of tone
and recording and jamming along. I also completely agree that doing so is
very, very different than filling a room with the din of a jangly tune or
distorted growl. Finding a practice space though is as old as I can remember,
because between parents, room mates, neighbors...police...people tend to like
listening to music but not the practicing part it takes to get good haha.

------
gaveuponfendr
I haven't given up on the guitar.

I have given up on buying new guitars from Fender, Martin, Gibson and the
other big names that peddle overpriced kit justified by the name stamped on it
alone.

There's no reason their kit needs to be as expensive as it is. Lower end
guitars from other brands are fine for beginners. Yeah Fender has $200ish
Strat and Tele clones. But you can find those all over CL thanks to the focus
of this article.

The days of arena rock are probably long gone. Fender wants to encourage
people to take up guitar? Then get off your high horse and cut prices?

It's a piece of Americana most Americans can't even afford. It's their own
damn fault.

~~~
soylentcola
Yep. As I got older and had a little bit of play-budget, I was able to buy a
few guitars even though I only play occasionally. Even then, I didn't go for
anything too pricey or "flagship" (although I might if I was gigging or
recording).

Instead, I got a knockoff Les Paul style from a Korean company called Agile.
It's not quite as nice as the high end Les Pauls but for under $400? Hell yeah
and it sounds/plays better than the Epiphones of similar price.

Also got a Squier Jaguar off Craigslist for $150 because I always wanted a
Jag...just not enough to shell out for the really nice ones.

Add in a cheap travel electric for campfire jam sessions, an absolutely crap
bass that I only have because it was $10 at Goodwill (seriously the strings I
bought for it cost more) and the cheap acoustic I bought for $50 as my first
guitar in 1992 and I've got more than I really need for the occasional
practice or just because I have a song stuck in my head and want to play along
with the album for the hell of it.

------
paulgrimes1
Most beginners (quitters?) don't receive fenders for their first guitar. If
they do, the gifter is obviously LOOOADED.

~~~
reducesuffering
I wouldn't say that. The classic fender stratocaster is around $400 iirc. It's
a great guitar for the price and that is by no means a high end guitar or high
end fender. The other "classic" guitar is the Gibson Les Paul which start at
$1500. If a beginner got THAT, the gifter would be loaded.

~~~
manarth

      The classic fender stratocaster is around $400 iirc.
      It's a great guitar for the price and that is by no
      means a high end guitar or high end fender.
    

"$400 looks a little pricey, what about this $100 guitar? Oh, that one is a
Fender? Fender are a good make, right? I don't think they need a Fender just
yet, they're only just starting. We'll go with the cheaper one. If they like
it, maybe we'll get them a Fender if they stick with the lessons."

------
jsz0
The ergonomics of the guitar are the main reason I don't play much anymore. I
hit a roadblock where the amount of practice required to improve further
wasn't really worth the physical discomfort. For example barre chords just
push my fingers past their limits to stretch. No matter how many hours I
practice them I can't make the ergonomics work. For other things that I've
gotten pretty good at there's still some general ergonomic problems of sitting
and repeating the same motions over and over. I fully understand the pain/gain
required to improve but for a hobbyist such as myself it's hard to justify it
past a certain point.

What I'd really like to see is Fender or some other company develop something
like a SmartGuitar. I feel like there's a lot of potential to improve the
ergonomics, accessibility and functionality if the strings were replaced with
a multi-touch input surface with haptic feedback. Maybe the pick could be
replaced with an input device that included an accelerometer, pressure
sensitivity, and haptic feedback. On the software side the possibilities are
endless. The multi-touch input could be 'auto-corrected' to make the fingering
of complex chords more forgiving.

~~~
ukyrgf
The top HN comment on this article is about how music teachers that focus on
form and fundamentals are ruining young musicians' desire to learn. To me,
your comment is the ultimate rebuttal of that.

Guitar is quite easy to play wrong; you can go a long way without learning
proper form. I imagine having somebody show you proper posture, thumb
placement, etc. would have helped you out. Nobody that wants to play rock
music is going to learn sitting like this, though
[http://www.learnclassicalguitar.com/images/Playing-
Position-...](http://www.learnclassicalguitar.com/images/Playing-
Position-1.jpg)

------
fotbr
Anecdote, from someone who gave up.

I was fortunate to grow up with parents that played various instruments. Mom
played the piano. Dad played the guitar and clarinet. Grandparents played the
piano and the pipe organ at church. We kids were encouraged to pick an
instrument we liked, and even though we didn't have much money, lessons were
always something my parents figured out how to pay for. In return, we were
expected to take it seriously, and learn both the instrument and the meaning
of a commitment to something difficult. I took piano lessons from age 5 until
12, when they agreed that I could stop piano lessons if I took up another
instrument, so I played the violin for 5 years with the public school's music
& orchestra program. I quit playing altogether about the time I started
driving, because having a car meant having a job, and that took the time I was
using to practice.

Fast forward many years, through college, and a decade afterwards. I don't
have the room for a real piano; keyboards & digital pianos just aren't the
same for me. The violin is something I don't really enjoy any longer,
especially without an orchestra to play in, and I do not have the time for
such an endeavor.

In college, I fell in love with classical and flamenco guitar. Figuring that
another instrument wouldn't be terrible to learn, since I already knew how to
read music, I picked up a $200-ish classical guitar, some books of chords, and
attempted to teach myself. After that miserable failure, I then attempted to
find someone who could teach the style of guitar I wanted to learn, and teach
it to someone who wasn't a little kid.

That turned out to be a nearly impossible task, and I think that's a big point
of failure. The teaching methods out there have a focus on "kid music" to the
exclusion of nearly everything else. On top of that, there is the assumption
by most teachers that wanting to play guitar means you want to play rock 'n
roll or pop-country. Those that don't assume that fall into the trap of
thinking that you want to play in a gospel band. None of them were willing to
sit down and teach the fundamentals without pushing me into playing extremely
simplified versions of music I hate.

So my guitar sits in its case, in the back of the closet, unused. I gave up.
Not because it was too much work. Because no one wants to teach what I want to
know.

~~~
dizzystar
Have you looked at guitar stores that are luthiers as well? I bet they know
someone that knows someone at the least. A good luthier has a lot of
relationships with the flamenco and classical music community, since their
entire living depends on it.

------
scelerat
People probably quit electric guitars more than acoustics because you have to
plug them in to get a decent sound. Not because of the steel strings (which
are generally pretty light and forgiving on an an electric compared to a
typical steel-string acoustic guitar). It's the hassle and volume factor
rather than a physical hurdle.

Plus, there's possibly nothing more irritating than a novice guitarist hacking
away on an electric quitar.

~~~
soylentcola
Sure, but there are also practice amps that accept headphones and even
"headphone amps" like the thing I was mandated to buy by my parents when I
insisted on getting an electric guitar in high school.

Plugged right into the guitar and let you connect headphones for non-obnoxious
practice. Even had some overdrive built in (although it sounded like crap). Of
course then I just plugged the headphone-out into the aux-in on my boom box
and had something approaching an amp. Plus it had a mic-input so I could
record one part to tape via the phone-out, then use a walkman or other tape
player to play into the mic-in while playing the second part over top and
recording out to my amp/boombox.

Fun times with crappy guitar playing :)

(this was the headphone amp in question)
[https://i.sli.mg/yVbr0J.jpg](https://i.sli.mg/yVbr0J.jpg)

------
zumu
Rock and roll is no longer the rebellious mouthpiece of the youth.

Increasingly kids make and listen to electronic music.

Akai, Ableton, Traktor, etc. do not share this problem.

------
agumonkey
Fender entry level brand Squier did produce a weird line of Bass Guitars
called the Vintage Modified. These go between 200-300 on second hand markets.
I can't thank them enough for it, I spent 5 years on what I now call a shovel
[1] that is the musical equivalent of a resistor. I never got the Fender
craze, but they put just enough of their savoir faire in this VM serie to
allow students to tickle beautiful sound and ergonomics [2]. I went from
deadended hopeless student to inspired and happy the minute I bought mine.
Sometimes the instruments makes the player.

[1] Ibanez SR400, funny enough, I used to love high end brands made by Ibanez
designer; smooth like butter in every way

[2] as counterintuitive as it can be, Fender bass are larger, heavier, thicker
than others, but you don't feel it while playing. It's not tiring. And you get
a pinch of the famous Fender sound, beautiful mediums (even unplugged) and a
tiny growl.

------
serge2k
> That means more apps, more connected devices, and a newfound focus on
> helping folks learn how to play their guitars

Rocksmith got me back into guitar after playing on and off for my teens.

and I bought an american deluxe tele earlier this year. The system works.

> And people quit electric guitars more often than acoustic ones, he said,
> because of the pain factor: Steel strings hurt delicate hands.

Wat.

------
squozzer
Long term, I think guitars (and the four-piece rock setup) will go the way of
Glenn Miller. It's just so much easier to make music on a computer. And
frankly, electronic music isn't as limited by physics (vibrating strings,
reeds, lips, etc.) as conventional instruments.

Another headwind for Fender et al. is the supply of used guitars, from which
guitar makers make exactly 0 USD.

And with due respect to current rock acts, the corpus of rock music is so
extensive that originality probably doesn't exist - a situation any fan of
classical music knows too well.

That said, I have a few guitars and look forward to buying and selling a few
more. I use Rocksmith to learn songs and techniques. The other apps probably
work as well or better. Still not a great or even good player, but my playing
is better now than when I started.

And suffering no illusions of rock stardom. It's closer to meditation.

~~~
Neliquat
That, and the mostly true perception that that 'don't make em like they used
to' drives most amatuers and pros alike to older equipment. I can buy an
american made guitar and tube amp from the late 60s for under 500$ that blows
away anything under 3k made today, not to mention having already depreciated
and will be worth what I paid for it when I sell. Cars are similar, and even
cash for clunkers did not help.

~~~
serge2k
> I can buy an american made guitar and tube amp from the late 60s for under
> 500$ that blows away anything under 3k made today

I call BS.

------
timdellinger
I'll be curious to see what happens to the musical instrument market when the
baby boomers start dying off - I'm thinking that a lot of really great used
instruments will start flooding the market. Decent quality musical instruments
have a long lifetime, and tend to be treated fairly well.

~~~
6stringmerc
This is true, and I'm sure the internet will play a big role in it now more
than ever.

As in, local CraigsList "closet clean outs" will perhaps be the new "Pawnshop
Find" because the seller doesn't take the time to research the item and a
savvy watcher shows up, does the deal in cash, and moves along. Free-market
and all. But, people who choose to go to sites like Reddit and ask "Hey found
this how much is it worth?" have a much better chance of receiving market
value, whatever that may be. Personally I think a lot of used guitars are
woefully over priced and I'd enjoy watching the market change a bit more.

------
ianai
I think this is also an income effect. People are experiencing flat income
with slightly inflating prices. Over time, that forces people to demand fewer
and fewer luxury goods. To put it another way, if average income increased
then demand for guitars should increase to some extent. It's not linear, of
course. People also have very little free time with the current job landscape.
As an anecdote, another HN thread is about Microsoft's ad campaign for
"working 14 hour days, 7 days a week with pervasive Microsoft technology
[surface devices, office 365, etc]." All of that will add up to fewer people
spending fewer hours on a guitar and many other things.

------
Neliquat
Then they need to fund a new RockSmith game that is cheaper. Even clueless
friends can bang out chords in a few hours. Like most of the worlds problems,
education is the answer.

------
Hydraulix989
Just a heads up, this is likely content marketing from Fender.

~~~
phkahler
>> Just a heads up, this is likely content marketing from Fender.

So let me counter it by saying "you gotta see this chick".

[https://www.youtube.com/user/malabar777](https://www.youtube.com/user/malabar777)

Who plays a competitors product ;-) The Fender article was correct, women play
now too...

~~~
Hydraulix989
Well played.

------
dizzystar
I never once heard someone say that acoustic guitars are easier to play than
electrics. It goes without saying that the first thing you do when you buy a
guitar and pull off the strings and put on something else. The stock strings
are, more often than not, old, out of tune, and feel terrible. I use Elixer,
which are soft and easy to play.

Maybe guitar stores should start tossing in a free set of good strings with
every new purchase. This would keep the complaints down, I think. Long term, a
guitarist will keep going back for the good string as well.

But Fender as a brand is facing a few issues.

First, the death of the rock star, so to speak, but more specifically, the
death of the 70s rock star. There are so many brands to choose from that are
equally as good, if not far superior, to Fender for the price point. Fender is
still riding on the Strat and Tele, looks that haven't been updated for many
years, and the quality of the pickups haven't kept up with the times,
especially on the lower end models.

When you are talking about the low-end, meaning guitars up to $500 or so,
Fender doesn't offer much that is convincing. For $500, you can buy an
Epiphone SG or Les Paul + Orange practice amp for about that price point. It's
hard to argue here considering this is a professional grade setup that one
would keep and use for their entire life, really.

People quit playing music because playing music is really hard. Even if you
are only going to strum C-G-E all your life, getting good at strumming those
chords takes considerable practice and conviction. If you want to play leads
well, that's a huge rabbit hole.

I think that every musician I've met is plain and simple, a music junky. This
was much easier to spot in the old days, as this person would carry around a
binder of CDs and read liner notes on the bus. Today, it is harder to spot,
but the dead giveaway is someone who lives and breathes music naturally. This
person listens to Lady Gaga with the same zeal as they listen to Led Zepelin.
This person is now interested in discovering who inspired their favorite bands
and they leap down a crazy rabbit hole and try to figure out why the heck all
of the shredders are covering Bach, Beethoven, and Paganini. After all of
this, they are excited to show you a brand new song by the Junior Boys they
discovered on YouTube. If you don't "get" why this person has a wide and
apparently conflicting taste in music, you have a natural musician on your
hands and get that music instrument.

I don't know, I may be overstating the spirit of a musician, but honestly,
I've never met one who didn't have some surprising influences and tastes, and
I never met one who couldn't appreciate a night of eclectic open mics. The
point is, to play music, you have to be willing to suffer, which includes
chopping your fingers up on guitar strings or putting ice on your crimped next
from holding a violin for 3 hours. It takes an innate drive and desire that is
inexplicable to those who left their instruments for the dust.

Unfortunately, Fender can't make a musician, but they can still sell guitars
to those who want to try it out, and that's not a bad thing.

~~~
cyberferret
> Maybe guitar stores should start tossing in a free set of good strings with
> every new purchase. This would keep the complaints down, I think. Long term,
> a guitarist will keep going back for the good string as well.

This is happening because of the death of the 'mom and pop' music stores and
the rise of the big chain retailers.

Back when I started playing (>40 years ago) the stores I used to go into used
to replace the strings, and setup the guitar for whoever bought it. They even
used to offer the first one or two string changes for free (just buy the
strings, and they would put it on).

Quite often, they would have a guitar teacher or two working out of a room in
the store, so that new buyers could tee up some lessons (or get a free trial
lesson). It was a good symbiotic relationship backed up by good old fashioned
service.

Unfortunately, the ease of buying good guitars online anonymously has changed
the landscape a lot.

~~~
dizzystar
Even 10 years ago, it was pretty easy to find mom-and-pop shops in LA. There
was even a few that had in-house luthiers, but I don't know of any like that
these days.

I now live in Austin and there is a healthy amount of small shops around town
who carry a decent selection* of guitars made by local luthiers along with big
brands, plus the strings are half-priced.

*I'm assuming they are decent. I play left-handed, so can't speak of the quality.

------
calebm
Anyone know how something like the MI Guitar
([https://magicinstruments.com/products/mi-
guitar](https://magicinstruments.com/products/mi-guitar)) would compare in
terms of functionality to a real guitar? It seems logical that a person should
be able to pre-program the chords they want to use into the guitar before
playing a song.

------
gist
Serious question here (really). Any truth to the idea that being able to play
guitar in college or high school is a great way to get girls?

~~~
6stringmerc
Yes. Because a guitar is portable and often used for sing along purposes (see:
church youth groups, camping like outings, sitting outside in the Spring)
there is nearly an immediate draw once people see one. The second part is the
choice of music, in that playing "Wonderwall" by Oasis or maybe a Ryan Adams
version of a Taylor Swift "1989" song will be much more interesting than
laying down an expert technical rendition of "Classical Gas" \- well,
probably.

This may be a very problematic study, but I think it's good to laugh at
because it tends to reinforce the supposition / superstition / myth about the
attractiveness of guitarists:

[http://www.mensfitness.com/life/entertainment/study-women-
mo...](http://www.mensfitness.com/life/entertainment/study-women-more-
attracted-guys-who-play-guitar)

It's a well worn joke that playing to impress non-musicians is a very
lucrative career path - playing to impress other musicians leads to poverty
more than likely.

------
6stringmerc
As a second generation player getting on in years, if a bunch of the next
generation doesn't pick up the guitar and goes the DAW/laptop/plug-in route I
can't blame them. Sure, there are big selling pop or rock-adjacent bands with
guitars - Coldplay, Radiohead, Maroon 5, The Strokes - and country stars like
Miranda Lambert, Brad Paiseley, and The Dixie Chicks feature it well. It's not
going to die out as long as those kind of groups speak to young audiences.
Have you taken a look at the local used instrument market in the US? Try not
to drown in oversupply.

Maybe not in other markets - actually I see there are lots of complaints about
that - import taxes, etc, making it nearly impossible for passionate players
to get even reasonable models for prices less than a cheap beater car. That's
a genuine problem I think, but not that players don't have enough colors to
choose from. Really? Nah...

Also it's strange to me that real, loud & proud rock & roll is still very
American and very present with a group like Black Stone Cherry[1], and yet
they seem to do best overseas (England, Europe), not in the US. I've seen them
several times live and they bring it - like groove rock, thunderous sync of
bass, guitar & guitar and then vocal melodies - but I don't see them having
any crossover appeal to pop or country, so they go where the audiences are. As
a result, the Chris Robinson signature PRS guitar is actually not slated for
US market distribution - only England and Europe. Business decisions like this
add up. [1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFmIlJUYXeo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFmIlJUYXeo)

The flip side though is maybe the guitarist market has been oversaturated - "a
dime a dozen" was the joke we tossed around. Guitar does have a steep learning
curve, a lot more like the decibel scale in how it's logarithmic in many ways.
Reaching 80% proficiency is staggeringly different than 95% from what I've
seen. That's part of the fun of the frustration with the guitar - hard to
play, takes maintenance, pisses off the neighbors, heavy to carry around, and
then you get people assuming you are a party-all-night-sleep-all-day rock star
wannabe, which hey, may be true.

The web has been wonderful for guitar. Tabs. Easy access to streaming songs.
Excellent teachers like www.JustinGuitar.com who are constantly being
discovered by new people searching for ways to improve. It's great!!!

Pretty funny an article about Fender starts off referencing the memorable
"Sweet Child O' Mine" which was famously crafted by Slash on a Les Paul. I'd
gotten wind when John Mayer left in 2015 that changes at Fender were afoot (he
since signed with PRS). Something about a Beats executive joining the board
and that having an effect on the company's direction (the can be fact checked,
the result is simply speculation however). Not having enough guitar heroes go
go around might be a valid issue though...I still miss Dimebag Darrell.

