
I Raised My Kids On the Command Line and They Love It (2012) - reubensutton
http://lifehacker.com/5974087/i-raised-my-kids-on-the-command-lineand-they-love-it
======
Tloewald
I raised my kids on GUIs and they love it.

(I don't disagree that exposing kids to the command line is probably a
valuable thing, but the idea that kids who learned to type a magic command to
launch games on C64 have more useful knowledge than kids brought up on
Mac/Windows is frankly stupid.)

Last night my five-year-old daughter complained her iPad was out of battery so
I gave her my Nexus 7 and she had no problems using it (except for the
relatively poorer quality of the apps). Then I gave her my Kindle Fire and she
had no problem using that. (No, she can't read beyond numbers and sounding out
words slowly.)

It's sad how because my daughter has been brought up on GUIs she can't run a
computer from the command-line. No, wait, it isn't.

~~~
brodney
>the idea that kids who learned to type a magic command to launch games on C64
have more useful knowledge than kids brought up on Mac/Windows is frankly
stupid.

>children that used Commodores or TRS-80s or DOS knew a lot more about how
their computers worked, on average, than those of the same age that use
Windows or MacOS

He said they know more about how their computer works, not that they have more
useful knowledge. Would you disagree?

~~~
fps
I would disagree. The command line is really no more about "how their computer
works" than a GUI is. They're both interfaces to run programs. In each you can
navigate to a location on a filesystem (which is, itself, an abstraction on
top of how the computer is really working) and run programs. Perhaps people
who don't understand computers think that the command line is really how
computers work, and that interacting with the command line inherently makes
them more knowledgeable, but that's completely wrong. You understand no more
by parroting apt-get install than you do by double clicking on a .deb icon.

~~~
lightcatcher
If the kids follow the natural progression of using the command line, the dad
will probably give them root privileges on their machines sometime between
when they're 8-10. At this point (if not before it) the kids will probably
learn about:

-file permissions, users, and processes on Linux

-environmental variables

-package management

-common Linux packages such as X, top, and probably others

-piping/IO redirection

-what a daemon is

-possibly how to use a "real" editor such as emacs or vim

-possibly some shell scripting

More importantly, this kids will never be afraid on the command line (which I
believe most people are, including younger programmers just learning how to
interact with shells).

Many of the topics above show up in a computer organization class in a
university. Computers are built on top of many abstractions, and the command
line is at least one layer lower of an abstraction than a GUI.

~~~
joesb
> -file permissions, users, and processes on Linux.

Available from most GUI file browser.

> -environmental variables

Available on GUI.

> -package management

Synaptic, or some package management GUI.

> -what a daemon is

There's GUI for Service management.

> -possibly how to use a "real" editor such as emacs or vim

I didn't Emacs and Vim does not have GUI version.

> More importantly, this kids will never be afraid on the command line

That's only important if you value being able to use command line, it's
circular reasoning.

~~~
lightcatcher
Just because the tools are available through a GUI doesn't mean that the kids
will use them the same way. I learned about as much about the above topics in
a week of doing server admin stuff as I did in years of running Ubuntu with
GNOME.

>I didn't (know) Emacs and Vim does not have GUI version.

Despite have GUI versions, the likelihood that most kids would use them is
roughly 0. If you give kids a GUI, they'll learn how to use Microsoft
Office/OpenOffice and maybe notepad/gedit. If you give them a command line,
they'll probably learn nano -> emacs/vim and then use LaTeX when they need to
make something they'd typically use an office suite for.

~~~
gavinlynch
Are you seriously suggesting that children would use LaTeX over MSO or MSO-
like software?

I find this thought process truly baffling.

------
JonFish85
No matter what you raise your kids on, they'll pretty much love it (for
awhile). It's interesting, they can control it. You love what your parents
love, for awhile at least.

~~~
victoriap
Yes, children love to play with their parents, at least till adolescence until
it is not anymore cool for them.

------
JetSetWilly
I've heard of being raised on the bread line, or the poverty line, but the
command line? That's real deprivation. Imagine how excited they will be when
they learn about hot water and inside toilets.

More seriously, what can a 2-5 year old do on the command line that would
interest them? I'm genuinely curious.

~~~
byroot
As much seriously, how a 2-5 year old can use the command line beyond
mimicking what dad shown ?

I mean if you can't read nor write how can you __learn__ command line ?

~~~
bluedino
Most 3 year olds can write their name (at some degree) and recognize quite a
few words.

------
jboynyc
Previous discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4141993](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4141993)

------
speeder
When I was a kid, my dad knowing I could not read, made for me single-letter
.BAT scripts to launch whatever I wanted on the DOS.

When a new game was installed, I would go ask him: "how I launch that game
where you push boxes? (sokoban)" and he would say: "oh, press D, as in 'Dog'"

And that way, he taught me the letters.

Later, I then figured that those single letter commands were made by my dad,
and I wanted to learn how to make them too!

Before I learned how to read or write, I learned CD and DIR...

As result eventually, I wanted to learn how to read and write, so I could make
my own programs.

When I got good enough at making my own programs, my dad introduced me to
GWBASIC. I was 6 years old then.

I still have a liking for CLI... I am now working on a OSX, it has two
terminal windows open.

On windows I rarely use shortcuts, I launch everything for the "execute"
thing, typing the path of whatever I want. Also when I have network issues I
fix them with CMD.

When I learned how to use AutoCAD (my dad is civil engineer) I also preferred
keyboard over mouse, it was much faster with few exceptions.

I think that kids raising on GUIs maybe will lose something, skip learning
some interesting things.

------
RougeFemme
I just viewed it as a story of a self-described hacker sharing his love of
computers with his kids. And it reminded me of how I first resisted the
replacement of the command line with a GUI (Windows ?3.1? - yes, I'm rather
"mature") at work because I didn't want to lose that sense of control and
flexibility.

------
jacob019
adorable, and good for you! Seems kids now, spend all their time on computers,
and don't even know how to use them. My parents supported my interest in
computers from a young age and it's paid off for me a thousand times over, but
that was when I had to learn about jumpers and IRQ's to install a new
peripheral. I fear that if they had offered the same "support" these days, I
would just be really good at facebook and videogames.

~~~
gavinlynch
I disagree. I think you're taking a narrow-scope on this story. The lesson
here is that you can teach kids about any facet of the computing landscape,
and they can catch on quickly and learn a valuable skill.

Just because you're not getting into low-level hardware interrupts or vector
tables or memory addresses, does not mean you "don't know how to use" a
computer. I'm glad you have that knowledge, I enjoy stuff like that too.

But a lot of kids are "really good at facebook" and use that as inspiration to
get into web dev. They want to create the next social network, or the next
cool website. Maybe it sparks their interest in big data, or databases, or the
math behind social networks.

This is just one example. I don't particularly care about or use facebook
personally. But there are a million different facets to computing.

Maybe they end up as a graphic designer for a video game.

Maybe they learn they enjoy the machines themselves and build one some day.

Maybe they learn they don't quite care about computers, and just learn to
become literate in an essential tool of the Information Economy. That's good
too. _shrugs_

~~~
jacob019
I see your point, and it's valid. I'm just really grateful to have had an
interest in computers at a time where proficient use has required a deeper
understanding. I take my car for granted, it's a machine that just works, I
need not understand the complexities of an automatic transmission to enjoy
it's maximum benefit, and I have no desire to. I appreciate the complexities
of the computer, and the knowledge has been a huge benefit to me. I would want
my kids to have the same appreciation, but the conditions that have fostered
it have changed. I think it's cool that the author is giving his kids a ground
up introduction to computers, and I think it will help them.

------
rxaxm
if nothing else, this shows how fantastically malleable children are. this is
why we need parents, not advertisers, telling them what they should like, do,
and explore.

~~~
test1235
I don't think anyone should be telling them what to like ...

------
PhasmaFelis
My big problem with command line (as it is commonly implemented) involves
learning curves. If you're using a GUI word processor/text editor and you
don't know how to, I dunno, auto-indent, you open the menu bar and browse
around until you find something that says "auto-indent". If you're using Vim,
you...google for <vim autoindent> and try to find a result that actually
answers your question and isn't a barely-related comment or a comprehensive
list with your answer buried somewhere on screen 12.

Essentially, a GUI allows you to explore the options available to you in a
fairly consequence-free manner. Most command lines offer no obvious, intuitive
way to do that, and actively punish you for experimenting without being sure
of your actions.

(Raised on CLI from the age of 7, BTW, and it took me years to accept GUIs.
I've come to believe that they both have their place, but a well-designed GUI
is clearly superior for casual day-to-day use. CLI is a useful tool, but a
specialized one.)

------
gprasanth
Do other fun things as well.. like say, play prince or blood or lion king.
Growing up playing these games along with mspaint and pinball, formatting c
drive couple if times made up my childhood.

And due to having a computer early in my life, I turned out to be more
technically "aware" than most of my peers.

Now the important thing for me was having that curiosity. Leave them curious
for more. :)

------
teh_klev
"I Raised My Kids On the Command Line...and They Love It" \- no they don't,
most kids just want to play with their paint or chat app or some game. OP's
kids haven't actually learned anything other than they had to go through some
irrelevant ceremony to get to play with their favourite app. You don't make
your kids break out ICE's or hardware debug tools just so they can boot the
lounge flatscreen so they can watch Postman Pat.

I wish people would stop pretending this is educational for children at this
age, it's not. All the kids are doing is spending a bit of time with their
Dad, who I'm sure they love, to get to the end result which is to play with
TuxPaint.

------
randyrand
I think its sort of funny 'raising your kids to use computers.'

The first computer my family ever got was bought at the request of my older
brother (probably around 1998) and they knew NOTHING about it. It was always
us kids that were using it and figuring things out on our own - it was a fun
time. Of course I was a little older than 3, maybe 6-7.

------
jseip
This. Is. Awesome.

Kudos that a dad has the where with all to give his kids an introduction to
technology that will increase their understanding and appreciation of current
and future tech. This is a lot harder than just handing your kid an ipad - and
(hopefully) his kids will thank him for it when they grow up.

------
a0
I think if kids were introduced to some kind of tiling window manager with
CLI, they would easily get use to it and probably prefer it to complex GUIs.

The command-line is interactive and that's where its power comes from. I think
a mixed approach would be ideal both for kids and professional hackers.

------
zwieback
This kind of article makes me gag - the online equivalent of those "proud
parent of a ..." bumper sticker.

~~~
kozhevnikov
If articles on the internet make you gag, please don't forget to drink lots of
water, you'll be dehydrated by lunch time. A father is trying to be the best
father he can be within his own world-view. Gasp! Someone call child
protective services!

------
vadivlkumar
In a different perspective, was wondering if this approach gives any goodness
to eyes for the kids since they don't do GUI much. Any thoughts, skypeople
(just watched avatar) :)

------
_sabe_
I'm gonna teach my future kids how to use a word processor, then they will
know something no one else does.

~~~
adestefan
I'm going to make sure they only use Word Perfect 5.1 without the help of the
F-key stickers.

~~~
_sabe_
I was not trying to be sarcastic. If I manage to teach them how a word
processor is supposed to be used, then and only then can we go over to the
shell.

~~~
jeffasinger
The shell is more fun than a word processor. Very few kids are going to be as
motivated to learn how to produce complicated documents as are going to want
to learn how to make their computer obey their every wish.

------
mumbi
This guy totally stole my idea. Awesome story.

