
Eldar Black Holes - jxub
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/weirdastronomy.php#id--Eldar_Black_Holes
======
grondilu
There is a fascinating PBS Space Time video[1] about black holes that
questions the very existence of whatever is "inside" a black hole.

They point out that as you approach a black hole, your proper time is
advancing slower and slower when compared to an observer located far away from
the black hole (like us, on Earth). That means that from the point of view of
this far observer, nothing happens inside a black hole until an infinite
amount of time. In other words, what is inside a black hole is separated from
us not by a space-like frontier, but a time-like one. Events behind the event
horizon are postponed to "the end of times".

Does it even make sense to say that those events exist, then? Are they any
more real than fairy tales or mathematical equations? If not, we can make any
speculation we want, including the existence of alien civilizations.

1\.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNaEBbFbvcY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNaEBbFbvcY)

~~~
wcarss
off-topic a bit: does anyone have suggestions for paths for the layperson
toward being able to reason and intuit about this stuff at one level beyond
pop physics claptrap?

I have heard "the theoretical minimum" suggested in the past, but I haven't
heard from anyone who has actually used it to go from zero to say, general
relativity, only people who think it sounds good. It also seems like a steep
investment -- I just want to have a decent enough grasp to separate sense from
nonsense and hold a picture in my mind.

One related thing I have wished existed was a good place to ask questions
about and discuss topics like this while learning them, but it seems like in
theoretical physics, everyone (including myself) has an infinite number of
different stupid questions and misconceptions, to the point that we drown each
other out, and answers to our questions often have little cross-applicability.

So, would love ideas for either!

~~~
fao_
Feynman's lectures of physics are good for layman explanations, however they
quickly feel lacking without the maths background, which you can fill in with
The Theoretical Minimum. There's actually a video lecture series of the
Theoretical Minimum series that you might find more approachable, that is if
you haven't heard of it:
[https://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=189C0DCE90CB6D81](https://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=189C0DCE90CB6D81)
(Here for the general relativity playlist:
[https://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=6C8BDEEBA6BDC78D](https://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=6C8BDEEBA6BDC78D),
and here for the full list of playlists:
[http://theoreticalminimum.com/courses/archive](http://theoreticalminimum.com/courses/archive))

You say you haven't heard from anyone who has used it to go from zero to say,
general relativity. You might want to look into the adult alumni of the class.

EDIT: You might also find another HN post interesting, it's currently at the
top of HN classic: "Learning classical mechanics through Haskell", here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16453192](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16453192)

(And a direct link to "Classical Mechanics via Scheme",
[https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/titles/content/...](https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/titles/content/sicm_edition_2/book.html))

~~~
amelius
A small note. The "Theoretical Minimum" is not just a book, it's also a
website with video lectures for the complete material.

See:
[http://theoreticalminimum.com/courses](http://theoreticalminimum.com/courses)

~~~
fao_
I... I already linked to that?

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jcadam
Reminds me a bit of the old short story The Crystal Spheres. In that universe,
once a civilization had attained a certain level of advancement, they
intentionally migrated to a black hole to await the arrival of others (the
idea being that all advanced civilizations in the universe were separated by
so much _time_ , that they suffered from a sort of loneliness).

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crystal_Spheres](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crystal_Spheres)

~~~
pavel_lishin
There's another book whose name is on the tip of my tongue that has a similar
premise, except the planet instead of the entire system is encased in a sort
of time-dilation field. Naturally, humanity thinks it's an attack.

~~~
zaphod12
I believe you're thinking of Spin by Robert Charles Winston.

Really good book

~~~
pavel_lishin
Yup, thanks!

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dghughes
From one of the article links, " aliens can live inside black holes."

>They would also be brightly illuminated by the central singularity and by
photons trapped in the same orbit.

That sounds creepily like a typical description of heaven. Timeless, ageless,
godlike beings all in a region of intense uniform brightness.

~~~
samstave
Holy carpe diem

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teraflop
Greg Egan has a short story called "The Planck Dive" about an expedition into
a black hole.

[http://www.gregegan.net/PLANCK/Complete/Planck.html](http://www.gregegan.net/PLANCK/Complete/Planck.html)

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LoSboccacc
Wonder if they also explored the possibility that we are in a black hole and
the universe structure is recursive.

Maybe the background radiation is the part of the hawking radiation that falls
inward. And we perceive it infinite but it’s the dilatated space between the
hevent horizon and the naked singularity at the center. And the big bang was
the supernova that left the black hole.

Trippinng!

~~~
neilsimp1
I've always liked toying with the idea (in my own head, not an astrophysicist)
that space is cyclical, or in your words, recursive.

I love animations where it zooms out farther and farther into space, until it
gets to the point where galaxies start to resemble molecular structures.

And then of course The Simpson's did a couch gag where exactly this happens
and they zoom out and out into space until it finally zooms out of Homer's own
head.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Learning of atoms initially I was given an orbital model, like a solar system,
who caused/allowed me to form a similar idea (I think it's quite common?) that
solar systems could be atoms in a super-universe. I was so annoyed as a
teenager to find that atoms aren't really little solar systems.

~~~
samstave
When I was ten years old I was meditating and thinking about how each one our
consciences are a neuron in gods brain... I will never forget that epiphany as
it was before I had studied any philos etc

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hliyan
I don't think that's possible. Perhaps the singularity itself will survive a
"Big Crunch", but I doubt anything between it and the event horizon will. And
without the ability to survive the end of the universe, life is unlikely to
emerge inside an orbit within a blackhole. Because of the time dilation, life
will evolve there hundreds if not thousands of times slower compared to the
rest of the universe. So the lifespan of the universe itself may be
insufficient for life to form there.

~~~
zmyrgel
But if the black hole can survive the big bang, therefore it can exist longer
that rest of the universe so it seems to have plenty of time to evolve
anything.

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imglorp
Fredric Pohl scifi fans might enjoy Hechee Rendesvous, which is near the end
of the Gateway series. Somone finds a way to live inside both Kugelblitzen and
black holes I think.

~~~
aagha
I've always wondered if for series like this one you can start somewhere in
the middle or if you have to start from the beginning to have context.

~~~
imglorp
Hrm, Gateway you kinda need to read the first one at least. It lays out his
universe of humans discovering an alien transport system with no instructions,
and IMHO the novelty of that is the best part. In later books, they stumble
around a little before (no big spoiler) getting a bunch of answers about the
builders and finding them.

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dave_sullivan
If you're interested in this idea, you might also find the transcension
hypothesis interesting: [http://brighterbrains.org/articles/entry/the-
transcension-hy...](http://brighterbrains.org/articles/entry/the-transcension-
hypothesis-an-intriguing-answer-to-the-fermi-paradox)

------
ThomPete
Since we are speculating here anyway.

Could it be that these type III civilizations are simply consuming so much
energy that that in itself becomes the black holes?

The KARDASHEV Scale explained.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k-Kuc9esDI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k-Kuc9esDI)

~~~
jweissman
Definitely an almost amusing overlap between different senses of
“singularity”.

Such civilizations might be like “simple germs”, their self-sustaining black
hole vessels interacting and stirring things together; perhaps the cores of
the most “interesting” galaxies are sentient, waiting for one femto-tech civ
to arise from a trillion slime-ball planetoids — to make first Contact...

The more general possibility of “intersecting” reality at right angles has
been taken up in a few additional works I can think of: in _Count to Infinity_
and _Excession_.

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machinshin_
> There was a second, unrelated paper that suggests that aliens can live
> inside black holes.

[ ... snip ... ]

> In theory, highly advanced aliens could live on such planets, being
> unobservable from outside while exploiting the high energies and large time
> dialtions available.

reminds me of Frederick Pohl's Heechee Saga.

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bArray
Wouldn't the aliens just need to wait for the black hole to evaporate in order
to escape? We're talking a long time, but still possible? If it was planned
just right, perhaps they could make it so they emerge in the new Universe.

Also, isn't the assumption that there is a "big crunch" (also a good name for
a cereal if it doesn't exist)? We're not sure whether there is a big crunch or
heat death? This still seems plausible whether there is a big crunch or heat
death - either way a black hole may be the only way for a civilization to stay
alive at "the end".

~~~
simonh
Being emitted as undifferentiated Hawking radiation, after the black hole has
shrunk to microscopic size, and when it finaly ceases to exist doesn't sound
like much of a happy ending.

~~~
bArray
Wouldn't the black hole's horizon also shrink past a planet orbiting it as it
loses mass?

~~~
simonh
I don’t think it makes physical sense to talk about planets orbiting inside
the event horizon. Black holes only shrink due to emitting Hawking radiation
from the perspective of our frame of reference at a distance. We can consider
the contents of the black hole to be undifferentiated mass/energy. From the
perspective of a planet in that situation, that’s kind of meaningless as the
process would take infinite subjective time.

~~~
bArray
Well, near infinite time is ideal if you're trying to survive the death of the
known Universe?

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tziki
This was a major theme in the 'three body problem' book series.

~~~
kiliantics
There's a similar civilisation in "Revelation Space" which I really recommend.

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beached_whale
Reminds me of the Golden Age Series book 3 The Golden Transcendence. Lost
humans using the power of a black hole to power amazing things.

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tritium
If the universe expands in a big bang, collapses in a big crunch, and then
expands in another big bang, then it’s not a different universe.

The black hole wouldn’t be older than the universe. The black hole is just
older than the last, most recent big bang, and the big bang doesn’t explain
anything anymore.

It’s disproven as an event of creation. The big bang just becomes different
parlance for turtles all the way down.

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duckwho
Sounds the Void in starcraft.

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pwaai
what if our universe is expanding because there are other bubbles of universes
that pull in all directions?

what if Buddha was right in that there are thousand fold universe systems each
with their own unique civilizations?

If there are blackholes older than the universe itself, what if that suggested
the universe was cyclical and that we may be in some gazillion-th iteration?

what if big bang was just a universe eventually being consumed by a monstrous
blackhole that collapses itself?

What about the strange UFO occurences that pentagon acknowledged, are we
getting visits from aliens within our universe or from another universe? Have
they figured out how to travel between multi-verse, that is if you believe in
it?

No proof, no way to find these answers but it really makes me wonder,
especially when particles behave strangely like being coupled regardless of
distance...but how could Buddha have known that blackholes existed?

[https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/6o8zmg/the_buddha...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/6o8zmg/the_buddha_mentioned_a_black_hole/)

Anyways, just some things to ponder and gawk about...

~~~
krapp
>What about the strange UFO occurences that pentagon acknowledged, are we
getting visits from aliens within our universe or from another universe?

The Pentagon has never acknowledged the existence of extraterrestrial craft,
or of UFOs as being anything but hoaxes and misidentified, mundane phenomena.

>but how could Buddha have known that blackholes existed?

He didn't, any more than the Norse knew that wormholes existed when describing
the Bifrost bridge or the World Tree. Reading modern scientific meaning into
ancient religious ideas is a common way to attempt to validate religion, but
doing so does a disservice both to the religion and to science.

The Buddha may have had many insights, but none of them involved the
relationship between spacetime and gravity.

~~~
JonnyNova
The US government hasn't acknowledge the existence of aliens, but in 2016 the
CIA admitted to funding programs because they suspected the existence of
aliens. It is very hard to find a good source to link though due to terrible
SNR when you google "cia aliens"

~~~
krapp
The government also studied remote viewing, and the Air Force had its own UFO
project called Operation Blue Book, and of course there was MKULTRA looking
into mind control, but just because something is studied doesn't mean it
exists, or gives practical results.

~~~
sterlind
Sundevil (remote viewing) and Blue Book (UFOs) were '60s projects. AATIP and
the UAP footage has been confirmed by the Pentagon itself, and even Raytheon's
official site talks up the use of their ATFLIRs in recording the footage:

[https://www.raytheon.com/news/feature/uap_atflir](https://www.raytheon.com/news/feature/uap_atflir)

We don't know if the footage is aliens, but we do know that the footage is
real.

