
Byron Sonne’s G20 security focus cost him dearly - colinprince
http://www.torontolife.com/daily/informer/from-print-edition-informer/2011/05/03/how-byron-sonne%e2%80%99s-obsessions-with-the-g20-security-apparatus-cost-him-everything/
======
ori_b
I think that the most disturbing thing about this article is the comments. I'm
amazed that there are people that seem to think this sort of treatment of
people for non-crimes like owning acetone and hydrogen peroxide is justified.

~~~
cheez
Seriously, as I read that part I thought "um, doesn't __everyone __have
those?"

~~~
pyre
I imagine that the hydrogen peroxide wasn't the off-the-shelf stuff seeing as
he was intending to make rocket fuel from it. The off-the-shelf disinfectant
is extremely weak. Concentrations of like 0.001%.

edit: in response to the downvotes, I don't agree with his treatment. I'm just
stating my thought that it probably wasn't the same as the bottle of hydrogen
peroxide that you have in your medicine cabinet.

~~~
cheez
Don't some people use it to dye their hair with a much higher concentration?

~~~
pyre
The only person that I've known that bleached his hair w/ hydrogen peroxide
used the disinfectant-grade stuff (though this was a while ago so I could be
mis-remembering).

------
extension
Byron was finally released on bail just a few days ago, though with very
restrictive conditions. He has to live with his sureties (his parents) and
they have to accompany him everywhere. He also basically can't use the
internet at all.

He is nonetheless thrilled to be out and, from what I've seen, only grown
stronger and more focussed from the experience.

~~~
pessimizer
Here's an article documenting the release:
[http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/defiant...](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/defiant-
sonne-on-a-tight-leash-before-g20-trial/article2026761/)

------
blendergasket
I'm starting to think more and more that people are hardwired to respect
authority no matter what it says. The banality of evil sort of thing I guess.
Things like the constitution, bill of rights, and the more or less democratic
political system I (in the USA) respect is in a big way just a tribal concept
people mindlessly evoke to reaffirm their belonging to the tribe that is the
"USA". There does not seem to be a lot of digging into what these things
actually mean or believing in the ideas contained within these things.
Governments can go around forcibly installing democracy all around the world
and staging coups when the democratic leaders that aren't strategically useful
are elected around the world and erode all the rights "enshrined" within the
constitution in order to protect us. Holding our rulers to same rule of law as
the people they rule was a massive leap forward in social organization.
However it seems that people don't really want to have to distrust their
leaders enough to apply it to them, because that would be taken as an attack
on the identity of the tribe as a whole.

/rant

~~~
tptacek
Or, as some social science suggests, we're _all_ hardwired to respect
authority, and what we're noticing are the _different authorities_ we tend to
respect.

~~~
blendergasket
I absolutely agree with you. It's turtles all the way down.

------
michaelchisari
I found this comment the most depressing:

 _You have an extremely hot wife, who also happens to be extremely wealthy.
Instead of making love to her and rolling around in money all day, why on
Earth would this freak waste his time building rockets and shite?_

I never thought I'd have to explain why having a hot wife _AND_ building
rockets would be a better life than just having a hot wife. Extra points if
you build rockets together.

~~~
potatolicious
I've always found that coders have more in common with artists than
traditional white-collar technical people. The basis of our industry is driven
by passionate creators, many of whom would continue to create even if they
didn't have a financial worry in the world.

Most people in the general population don't _get_ this. I've found that
artists and musicians largely do.

~~~
pyre
Most people have a passion for _something,_ even if that something is doing
nothing. I'll bet that most of the people that agree with that comment
wouldn't agree with it if it were advocating that he should have given up
watching sports/playing video games/playing sports/reading books/etc.

~~~
potatolicious
I disagree - many people don't _have_ a passion - there is no driving thing in
their life, even if it s watching TV or playing video games. From my own
observation, many people go through life with a smattering of interests - but
nothing that inspires them and truly grips them.

"Having interests" is not the same as "having passions".

But even disregarding that, many people do not understand _creation_. A
passion for watching TV or playing video games maps poorly to someone obsessed
with creating things - whether it's sculpture, software, music, or
architecture. Personally I find it very difficult to identify with non-
creators, while there is a very natural mesh when I talk with other creators -
even if I know nothing of their craft. Their fundamental passion and mentality
is mutually understood.

------
potatolicious
As a Canadian, the whole G20 business makes me terribly ashamed of my country.
It makes me even more ashamed that people like the comments on the article
_exist_.

At the risk of making this a political statement - what else can you expect
from the population that elected Rob Ford?

~~~
waterside81
As a Torontonian, this G20 fiasco is definitely the blackest of black eyes on
our otherwise great city. I don't know one citizen of TO that thought it was a
good idea to host that in downtown TO.

Why didn't they have the whole thing (G20 in addition to G8) up in Huntsville,
away from the city? For those not familiar with Toronto or this event, it
completely shut down the downtown core, which houses all of the financial
institutions that keep TO humming.

And don't get me started on Officer Bubbles ...

A dark period in our city's history.

~~~
pyre
I'll bet they wanted it in Downtown TO just because there was better access to
higher-quality hotels to house the leaders and their aides. They would rather
spend billions in tax payer money to try and bring the downtown core of
Toronto under martial law for a few days than to host the conference somewhere
where the attendees might have to be in a hotel room that doesn't qualify as a
presidential suite.

------
pnathan
From where I sit, I think that he has done no wrong (at least according to the
article).

I don't know that it is wise to purposely antagonize the government, but it
doesn't read like he was attempting to induce sedition.

------
mcantelon
My guess is Byron Sonne's jailing was meant to send a message to dissident
geeks. I would also guess that the fact he wasn't released until after the
federal election isn't a co-incidence.

It's disappointing that there isn't more outrage at this, the G20 mass arrests
(which are the largest in Canada's history), and the fabrication of the
"secret fence law".

~~~
tptacek
My guess is that Sonne's imprisonment has nothing to do with "dissidents" or,
particularly, geeks. Instead, it's that western governments have no sense of
humor or intellectual flexibility about terrorism anymore.

That is a bad thing, but it is a _different kind of bad thing_ than the one
that creates a soap opera about oppressed geeks.

~~~
pyre
Personally, I see it as the same 'bad thing' that happens all of the time. Law
enforcement doesn't like to be challenged, so they set out to 'teach a lesson'
to the person that challenged their authority.

~~~
tptacek
That is credible. "Part of an initiative to suppress dissident geeks", though,
is not.

------
pyre
As stupid as the comments are, I wonder how many of them are law enforcement
(or government) officials... (i.e. psyops)

~~~
jrockway
My guess is zero. My guess is that they are the normal sunday-morning
newspaper-readers that think they have a 1 in 10 chance of being blown up by a
terrorist every time they step into an airport. As such, someone talking about
chemicals scares them, because bombs and illegal drugs are also made from
chemicals.

~~~
SoftwareMaven
I agree. Remember, these are the same types of people who would vote to ban
dihydrogen monoxide because it sounds scary.

~~~
redthrowaway
It's also a toxic industrial solvent that has been found in high
concentrations in rain. Dihydrogen monoxide was heavily implicated in the
Fukushima meltdown, and unintentional inhalation can lead to death.

~~~
Vivtek
I did that same joke in fourth grade with a piece of rock salt I'd picked up
on the parking lot. The kids at lunch asked what it was, I said, "Sodium
chloride, yadda yadda yadda _and it's in your food!_ " "Ewww!" (That was
Melissa Abbott. She pushed her tray away and then hit me when I told her it
was just salt.)

Good times. Good times.

------
antihero
Why on earth did his wife ditch him? This seems like the worst punishment. I
wouldn't care so much about the jail time if I had my girl on the outside
waiting for me. Without that it would be a lonely hell.

~~~
Vivtek
Because it's one thing for your husband to be obsessive about security theater
- and it's another thing for your husband's obsessive activities to get you
arrested.

My wife would have divorced me, then killed me, then chopped me up and fed me
to the dog, then killed the dog.

~~~
seunosewa
She would say that, but one would expect love to prevail if it actually
happens.

~~~
Vivtek
No, really. She's Hungarian and her entire life she's been in terror of what
the police might do if one draws their attention. It's a little different from
marrying a North American.

It's also different if you're just minding your own business and the cops come
and arrest you - but I will bet they'd had words about this beforehand, then
the cops came and arrested her.

And yeah, their marriage may not have been on such a solid basis anyway, who
knows? Or, she's just a jerk. But it wouldn't take much of a jerk to really
resent getting arrested for somebody else's windmill tilting.

------
keane
I think the lesson to take away from this is "Keep Your Head Down". I have
some respect for a number of libertarian ideas and I would never defend the
treatment of Sonne by the police and State. Nor would I agree with the
authoritarian comments made on the article that he somehow deserves the
treatment that he is getting. But if someone attacks a beehive and then is
stung, it seems like they should have known what might happen.

Sonne's actions of filming the security measures and his belief that this was
an effective method of action were very naive. There are a number of reasons
why.

To begin with, the G8 (rebranded as the G20) has long been protested and the
police response can be brutal. A protestor, Carlo Giuliani, was shot and
killed by police at the 27th G8 summit (the police were surprisingly found not
responsible). A bystander, Ian Tomlinson, was beaten to death by riot police
at the meeting of the group in London. The Miami Model is being expanded and
police are becoming militarised, with Long Range Acoustic Devices used on
protesters in the United States <http://youtu.be/QSMyY3_dmrM> and similar pain
rays <http://youtu.be/dmuyLIrSjxI> tested on protestors in Iraq -- when these
devices and Miami Model tactics are the routine at summits and simple
protests, it is foolish to talk about "civil liberties" and "civil rights" and
"the Constitution".

Consider the G20 summit in Pittsburgh, occurring nine months before the
Toronto summit where Sonne had trouble. At Pittsburgh, military police make
snatch-and-grab arrests - <http://youtu.be/G8CNa_viKg0> . Peaceful people are
denied the right to assemble - <http://youtu.be/etv8YEqaWgA> and marches are
deemed "unlawful" - <http://youtu.be/5k0Y7_5a5d0>

To see this atmosphere and then 9 months later to attempt to challenge these
same authoritarians by filming them, purposely provoking them, and having them
ruin your life and then being surprised by this is as naive as the college
kids who chant "Let him go!" (in that last video above) as police drag away
their fellow marcher. Police do as they please, and they are supported by
their district attorneys and courts. Get in their way or challenge their
authority in any way and enjoy the inevitable.

Filming a fence does nothing to the agenda of the G20 and even if you are only
protesting the spending of the city of Toronto, it likewise does nothing.
Peaceful assemblies are mocked, derided, and ignored by the politicians and
bureaucrats who make up the Department of Homeland Security and the City of
Toronto. And those protestors who employ property destruction? Breaking the
window of a Starbucks does nothing to the G20 and it does nothing to Starbucks
who makes up the cost of the window in less than one second of worldwide
sales. Burning a Toronto police car? The city could care less as they will
simply send the bill to the taxpayer (you and your neighbors).

Opposing these people and their secuirty apparatus -whether by peacefully
chanting feel good slogans from the Sixties or by "exercising" and flexing
your "civil liberties" and natural rights by filming a fence- is futile.
Additionally, they will not hesitate to ruin your life, nor feel any remorse
for someone who opposed them.

Do not get in their way.

~~~
keane
'Keep Your Head Down' and 'Do not get in their way', are I realise, perhaps
not the optimistic slogans people like to hear. I consider myself a geek and
based on my own experience and also discussions with other geeky people, I
think geeks and hackers and generally creators have a difficulty accepting
what the state is doing based on two key traits of (many) geeks: idealism and
belief in rationality (perhaps these attributes contributed to Sonne's
behavior). The world, of course, as far as its political organization and
practices go, does not operate based on science, rationality, or fair play. If
anything, you might best understand the government's actions by considering
individuals' psychology, and how those individuals will behave when given
power over others.

What you see in Toronto, and in Sonne's case, is part of a never-ending
conflict between individuals with respect for liberty and individuals with a
need for authority. Authoritarians and libertarians have been clashing as long
as humans have existed. A spoiler: the authoritarians win.

Consider this passage from Bertrand Russell:

"I am naturally pugnacious, and am only restrained (when I am restrained) by a
realization of the tragedy of human existence, and the absurdity of spending
our little moment in strife and heat. That I, a funny little gesticulating
animal on two legs, should stand beneath the stars and declaim in a passion
about my rights—it seems so laughable, so out of all proportion. Much better,
like Archimedes, to be killed because of absorption in eternal things... There
is a possibility in human minds of something mysterious as the night-wind,
deep as the sea, calm as the stars, and strong as Death, a mystic
contemplation, the ‘intellectual love of God.’ Those who have known it cannot
believe in wars any longer, or in any kind of hot struggle."

A soldier was insulted when Archimedes insisted he finish working on his math
problem before obeying the soldier and meeting with a general, so the soldier
killed him. Today, while immediate techne are different, those two
psychologies still exist. And while the soldiers might not kill you, their
apparatus will not hesitate to imprison you and ruin your life in other ways
(or in the case of Giuliani and Tomlinson, will indeed kill you). And so, as
Russell points out, better to spend your limited days on eternal things, like
Archimedes, then to fall into their game and be distracted by petty struggle.

Hunter S. Thompson summarises the protesters of the 1960s:

"The hippies, who had never really believed they were the wave of the future
anyway, saw the election results as brutal confirmation of the futility of
fighting the establishment on its own terms. There had to be a whole new
scene, they said, and the only way to do it was to make the big move — either
figuratively or literally — from Berkeley to the Haight-Ashbury, from
pragmatism to mysticism, from politics to dope... The thrust is no longer for
"change" or "progress" or "revolution," but merely to escape, to live on the
far perimeter of a world that might have been."

As Gavin McInnes says "Boomers, who are masters at glorifying their past,
insist they stopped a war, but we all know it was Kissinger’s relentless
bombing that ended it." Protest does nothing. The success of the hippies was
not their conflict with authoritarians (our presence in Iraq and Afghanistan
demonstrates how they won and always will win) -- that was a complete failure.
The success and value of the hippies was their ability to create autonomous
zones and safe enclaves from which they could explore personal growth and
become, as Russell advises, absorbed in eternal things.

~~~
antihero
Bollocks to the idea that the authoritarians always win. Look at the French
revolution, Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, the recent Arab uprisings...there are so
many, many examples in history where the authoritarians have been crushed by
those seeking freedom. We just have to step up our game.

Furthermore, I see that as a fairly selfish attitude. Whilst I might have the
ability to "escape", others might not, so I see it as my duty to fight for the
freedoms of others to make that choice.

~~~
keane
"The revolutionaries of any decade will become the reactionaries of the next
decade, if they do not change their nervous system, because the world around
them is changing. He or she who stands still in a moving, racing, accelerating
age, moves backward." -/Prometheus Rising/, Robert Anton Wilson.

They do always win. Consider France, India, South Africa, and Egypt. All of
the examples you gave are of authoritarian states being replaced by
authoritarian states. France, Egypt, India and likely South Africa would all
be just as likely to trod on an individual who was opposing their security
apparatus, especially when said security apparatus is taking orders from the
visiting G8.

As far as you feeling guilty about being "selfish", that is your issue. You
need to get over the idea that the world owes you something, and likewise that
you owe the world something (apart from perhaps fair play and non-aggression -
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle> )

~~~
antihero
Well, then we have to keep revolting. I see myself as owing the world
something, because my skills and abilities could help others. I am so lucky to
have them, and I can pay it back by paying it forward. If everyone had that
attitude, the world would be a better place.

------
mkramlich
Whether what he did was legal or not, and whether it should be legal or not,
what he did was clearly pretty foolish. A bit like kicking a hornet's nest and
then being shocked, SHOCKED that some hornets come out and sting you. Keep in
mind that police are not psychic. They don't know that this man in question
had no violent intent. They can only know what they see and hear. And what
they could see and hear did not look too good. Thus, the treatment.

Fair? Dunno. Wise? Hell no.

