

Someday, A Tiny Subway Will Deliver Your Groceries - edw519
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/08/someday-a-tiny-subway-will-deliver-your-groceries/

======
rjurney
I have only five words and a link: The Alameda-Weehawken Burrito Tunnel
[http://www.idlewords.com/2007/04/the_alameda-
weehawken_burri...](http://www.idlewords.com/2007/04/the_alameda-
weehawken_burrito_tunnel.htm)

~~~
s-phi-nl
This one of the funniest things I've read all week!

~~~
rjurney
Its really innovative, huh?

------
gchucky
First, according to <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_pneumatic_post>, the
Prague system ended in 2002 when it flooded.

Second, the New York City post offices used to send packages to each other via
pneumatic tubes. The system stopped in 1953, though, when it became rather
impractical. I see that very much happening here.

And also, do we really _want_ this sort of thing? Are we just too lazy to get
out of our houses to get a loaf of bread or whatever?

~~~
aka-
Yes. Online grocery shopping with dedicated delivery services is huge here (in
the UK). Imagine how much bigger it would be when you could order stuff in
much smaller batches at more regular intervals? Loaf of bread and a pint of
milk to home at 7am, and a sandwich to your office at 1pm?

If you include the postal system and all those little trips people make, we
are moving stuff between various hubs and houses several times a day anyway,
often with dedicated trips using our hugely inefficient, slow and polluting
vehicles. We could really get the eco crowd onside with this one.

~~~
jodrellblank
_and a sandwich to your office at 1pm?_

<http://twitter.com/deliciouslunch> did that for a few weeks, on a local
scale. Tweet to them in the morning, have a sandwich delivered same day.

They stopped pretty quickly - but it looks like they might have plans to
resume one day.

------
mseebach
> Tilleman acknowledges the idea sounds like a Tomorrowland attraction from
> 1965, but says it’s completely feasible _with enough funding_.

Really, most projects tend to be feasible with enough funding. Actually, the
word feasible seems to be somewhat linked to whether or the idea would work
with reasonable funding.

I think a system where packages are delivered via small, electrical driver-
less trucks is much more feasible, since roads already exist.

------
kingkawn
Any promise about massive new infrastructure are dubious, especially one that
is met by pre-existing services.

~~~
bsaunder
You mean like ubiquitous fiber communications?

This is entirely plausible. The building of the infrastructure could be highly
automated and done in parallel.

~~~
kingkawn
There is too much pre-existing infrastructure underground to automate it
completely in a cost-efficient way. In general, almost all construction work
other than heavy lifting is still done by people.

that said, I am looking forward to my flying car.

~~~
jerf
You missed a word, which I added in italics:

"There is too much pre-existing infrastructure underground to automate it
completely in a cost-efficient way _today_."

I've said on HN a couple of times that robotics work is going to radically
affect society, and this is the sort of thing I'm thinking of. If we had real
robots that could be turned loose with nothing more than a layout of the
desired network and the necessary resources, and could intelligently deal with
most blockages and intelligently call in human help when needed (and _only_
when needed), then the cost equation of this idea changes a _lot_. (Also,
robots to do a lot of basic maintenance without human intervention are
probably necessary.)

Right now, it's a total pipe dream. Perhaps when we get such robots, it'll be
more cost-effective to do something else instead, like an above-ground robotic
bucket brigade for item deliveries. Or robotic delivery vehicles. But the
tunnel approach may turn out to be feasible. (Or, more likely, a bucket
brigade in some places, tunnels in others, and robotic drivers in yet others,
where each makes most sense, freely intermixing delivery styles as needed.)
So, bear in mind it is not that I am predicting specific results like "tubes
in the ground", but that robots are going to radically change the cost side of
many cost/benefit analyses.

~~~
kingkawn
"robots" (forever undefined beyond just that they're robotic) have been
promised as the general fix-all to the world's physical labors since at least
the 1950's.

Regardless of who does the labor, the reason robots have not spread further is
that its still significantly cheaper to have people do things. So why spend
the money replacing people with robots in this situation, all to build
something that can be done already?

~~~
jerf
"general fix-all to the world's physical labors since at least the 1950's."

First, I'm not saying they're a "fix-all". I'm saying they're going to disrupt
cost/benefit relations increasingly over the next few years. That's a much
more defensible statement.

Second, part of the mental block that people are having with understanding
this is that the promises that were made in the 1950s were _premature_ , not
_wrong_. Look at actual research coming out of robotics right now, not from
the 1950s. It's still early, but there's been a qualitative change in the past
couple of years; things are moving again. We got used to "nothing happening"
so much so that it became just part of the mental background of our lives, but
that doesn't make that rational.

There's nothing stopping people from being part of the delivery network,
either. The most likely outcome is that it simply becomes an outgrowth of
today's Fedex and UPS, starting in the cities and spreading out as the
economics make sense. It's not even as much of a discontinuity as you might
think, as from what I've seen of photos of the inside of the hubs, the hubs
are already building-sized robots with small amounts of human help. It's just
an expansion of the already-robotic-core of the delivery system, not an
introduction of a brand new concept.

------
weavejester
It seems like it would be easier to use tiny robot zepplins instead. Much more
CPU power would be required to control the robots, but that seems like it
would be cheaper than setting up a nationwide network of tunnels.

Or in cities with footpaths, what about strapping a GPS and AI to a segway-
like robot and sending that on its way?

~~~
recampbell
Miniature Zepplins are great until the wind starts blowing. Most of the large
cities are coastal.

Robots on segways are ok until someone decides they need another segway (or
whatever it happens to be carrying).

Of course, I think the tunnels could suffer the same security problems,
whether physical or virtual. Imagine hacking your neighbourhood tunnel to get
free pizza!

~~~
weavejester
Yes, wind might be an issue for miniture zepplins, though I wonder whether
there might be ways to mitigate the effect of wind. It's not like they'd be
flying very high.

Regarding robots on segways, the robots would not be _on_ the segways; they'd
be self-balancing robots of approximately human dimension with a rack for
carrying parcels. You wouldn't be able to easily ride one, and stealing one
could be made quite difficult. For instance, you could have the robot
automatically phone home along with it's current GPS position when it detects
itself being "kidnapped". Or you could program it to emit an extremely loud
siren. Or fry its own circuits so that it's useless to the criminals. Or snap
photographs of the perps and email them to a remote location.

------
aka-
The only thing that prevents from thinking about this idea in the same way as
flying cars is our water delivery network. if we could build that 100+ years
ago (albeit at gigantic expense), perhaps we have finally reached the
technology level where we can expand to an extremely high-speed automated
24-hour postal service.

When you think about it, society is already curving back towards more delivery
services and less 'go and fetch' services - I know I now do more shopping
online than I do in an actual shop, and those thousands of dedicated
supermarket delivery trucks (and attendant drivers_ are a huge saving waiting
to made, alongside the postmen.

What we need is for the government to step in and finance a really large scale
trial in co-operation with the postal service and the various home delivery
services. Mail, pizza and groceries would be enough of a tipping point I
think.

------
hendler
Ahhhh, yes. The tubes. I've heard of this internet before.

------
mrduncan
_Tunnel paths will be pre-planned so as to avoid interfering with existing
infrastructure._

I for one am skeptical of this. There is _a lot_ of underground infrastructure
which isn't documented. Just think about all of the wiring, sewer lines, gas
lines, which are in a typical urban environment. Most of this just has to be
found by hand digging. That said, I'd love to be proven wrong.

------
ChaitanyaSai
This isn't a prank? I find the claims dubious.

What are the energy costs of automating the burrowing of these tunnels to
connect,say a small city like Boston? The Boston Sewer network is ~1500 miles
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Water_and_Sewer_Commissi...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Water_and_Sewer_Commission))
and I am guessing this would have a comparable edge length.

And then, how do you deal with breakdowns, logistically and financially? It
will have more complicated machinery than mere plumbing, with finite half-
lives that'll require switch-outs.

The Boston Sewer Commission charges 60 dollars per month per family unit, and
I am guessing a significant fraction goes into upkeep.

Will anyone want to spend that kind of money for the slim marginal benefit of
getting things a bit faster than Amazon?

~~~
clistctrl
seriously? Boston would be one of the more difficult cities to connect. Boston
is old, has a very established infrastructure, and a pretty expansive
underground infrastructure already. I would say doing this in a place like
Minneapolis might be easier because its newer (more documented, less
underground infrastructure) of course then you have weather problems.

~~~
ChaitanyaSai
True,Boston may be a bad example for those reasons, but I wanted an example
mainly to get a handle on the numbers. Minneapolis might be a better fit, but
will the tubing mileage needed and the problems change?

------
movix
Apart from agreeing with all the reasons below why this won't work - both
technical and the blazingly obvious - and still being an ardent lover of all
types of tech... I think that in the 21st century where all our labour saving
devices seem to take all our time to operate, control, log in/out, update,
check and generally fiddle with so that we have next to zero free time.. isn't
there a certain pleasure being missed here in taking a walk to your corner
store, saying 'Hi' to a passing neighbour and grabbing a few groceries before
getting back home in time to catch the latest episode of Family Guy? Isn't
this just another reason for us to stay trapped in front of the computer never
leaving the house? /me ducks under a flying car piloted by a pig

------
jonasvp
Great idea and these guys have taken it pretty far already:
<http://www.cargocap.com/>

In a couple of decades, our kids will be asking us: "... and you had heavy
trucks deliver goods within the city? Nasty."

------
anigbrowl
There was a system like this in New York until the 1950s, when trucks killed
it off. If you search google you can also get the RTF version which includes
some grainy photos.

[http://www.usps.com/postalhistory/_rtf/PneumaticTubes2-09.rt...](http://www.usps.com/postalhistory/_rtf/PneumaticTubes2-09.rtf)

No doubt that such a network could be insanely useful (although why the
empahsis on having it running to every house? Wouldn't one delivery point per
block be adequate?). But I'm extremely skeptical about the autonomous tunnel
boring machine. If it's so easy, buy some cheap land and do a demonstration,
guys. Talk is cheap.

------
Flemlord
For all practical purposes, this would be like the replicator on Star Trek.
You select from a menu of offerings, press a button, and whatever you ordered
pops out a little while later.

(sigh) Nothing that cool would ever happen in real life.

~~~
jrockway
_Nothing that cool would ever happen in real life._

Perhaps not exactly like that. But in some cities, Amazon offers same-day
delivery that is like $7 for Prime customers. (Sadly, not Chicago.) Order your
new computer in the morning, it shows up at your office / home in the
afternoon. Pretty convenient. No tubes required.

------
bsaunder
Automating our point to point transportation system would be a huge value.
Seems like this would compete in some ways with self-driving vehicles (though
a controlled rail system seems more energy efficient).

------
ken
Also on HN this morning: "The career choice that delivers", about a postman.

It's not unusual that I see articles here both on how some new device is going
to save us from physical labor, and right next to that an article about how
somebody discovered that they're happier when doing more physical activity.

I don't think I want a tiny subway to deliver my groceries. What's the point?

~~~
sophacles
I can do plenty of physical activity and labor without going to a store (an
activity that I very much dislike, with the exception of the grocery at 3am
when I'm the only customer).

The point is I can now choose how to do my physical activity.

------
io
Flying cars first, please.

------
sstrudeau
Chicago used to have an underground tunnel delivery system, using tunnels
originally built to house telephone lines, used to deliver coal & remove ash:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Tunnel_Company>

------
ALee
Reminds me of the 5th element.

~~~
narag
Then, I bet you missed "Brazil".

Edit: I've watched The Fift Element three of four times, Brazil only once. But
I can't help thinking in "Brazil" when I read about tubes.

------
GiraffeNecktie
The rats in my city will be very, very happy indeed.

~~~
sethg
New business model: design a pet carrier that can run in the cargo tunnel, and
rent out cats....

~~~
sophacles
Better gaming model: design a cargo box for the tunnel with web cams and laser
turrets (or some other form of rat killing small arms). Working title:
ratpocalypse, until something cooler is suggested.

------
xelfer
So anyone with a shovel is a hacker?

------
ALee
Reminds me of the mail delivery system in the 5th element... So many creative
innovations in that movie.

------
jodrellblank
"When Paris hosted the Exposition Universelle in 1900, it unveiled its vision
for the future of transport. The trottoir roulant was a moving walkway that
circled the fair in a 3-kilometre loop, its articulated wooden segments
"gliding around like a wooden serpent with its tail in its mouth", according
to one reporter.

Chicago's walkway, the brainchild of engineer Max Schmidt, consisted of three
rings, the first stationary, the second moving at 4 kilometres per hour and
the third at 8 km/h, an arrangement that allowed walkers to adjust to each
speed before moving to the next.

In fact, the idea of high-speed walkways had been established in New York
longer than anywhere else. Back in 1871, local wine merchant Alfred Speer
patented the first "endless-travelling sidewalk", and promptly proposed an
ambitious elevated moving walkway along Broadway. It would have zipped
pedestrians along at up to 30 km/h

Undaunted, Schmidt proposed a flurry of similar projects around Manhattan -
running down Broadway, along Wall Street, over the Williamsburg Bridge and
across 23rd and 34th Street. To Schmidt, the advantages of the moving walkway
were so compelling that he was convinced they would supplant some subways
rather than supplement them. By 1909, he was pushing a massive $70 million
scheme that would provide Manhattan with a network of subterranean moving
sidewalks."

\- [http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327200.200-how-
the-m...](http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327200.200-how-the-moving-
walkway-nearly-overtook-the-metro.html?full=true)

