
Apple rejects Valve’s Steam Link game streaming app over ‘business conflicts’ - davvid
https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/24/17392470/apple-rejects-valve-steam-link-app-store-ios-game-steaming
======
dnomad
People who go on and on about the Google and Amazon "monopolies" \-- which
only _benefit_ consumers with low prices and expansive services -- this is
what actual monopolistic behavior looks like. Apple controls access to a
significant share of the mobile application industry and it directly abuses
that market power to harm customers by reducing competition and artificially
raising prices. Apple is being sued in both US and French courts over it
appstore monopoly so let's hope this ridiculous practice is stopped soon.

~~~
int_19h
An example of monopolistic Google behavior was when they refused to make a
YouTube app for any Windows platform (Win8, and later Win10) - which is fine -
but then they also blocked the app that Microsoft itself has developed.
Because they control access to YouTube as a service, they could do that. And
because YouTube is _the_ place for videos on the Net, it hurt the platform
pretty bad.

~~~
beavis2
_Despite the two companies collaborating on an app based on HTML5, Microsoft
's app is still breaking YouTube's terms of use._

 _" Microsoft has not made the browser upgrades necessary to enable a fully-
featured YouTube experience, and has instead re-released a YouTube app that
violates our Terms of Service - It has been disabled. We value our broad
developer community and therefore ask everyone to adhere to the same
guidelines"_

[https://www.theverge.com/2013/8/15/4624706/google-blocks-
win...](https://www.theverge.com/2013/8/15/4624706/google-blocks-window-phone-
youtube-app)

My impression was Microsoft being arrogant. Besides, Windows 8/10 users could
still access YT via web.

~~~
jrs95
Google intentionally ignores issues Edge/IE users have with their products
because they want them to switch to Chrome. This isn’t an issue of Microsoft
making “browser upgrades”, it’s an issue of Google developing to and
supporting Chrome and ignoring the rest of the web.

~~~
fron
I don't blame anyone if they don't want to support Edge/IE. Microsoft's
browsers are horrible to develop for. Personally I'd be much happier if more
of my users would switch to Chrome.

~~~
noxToken
I haven't tried to write extensions for Edge or anything like that, but have
you recently developed for Edge or even IE11? I've run into a few minor warts
(minor as in a 5-minutes fix) with IE11, but it's been smooth sailing with
Edge. Mobile FireFox has comparatively been a nightmare in spite of MDN's
wonderful docs.

~~~
jrs95
Edge extensions use the same new standard as Firefox, it shouldn’t be that
bad.

------
op00to
Here's the feedback link to tell Apple this is a total bullshit decision:
[https://www.apple.com/feedback/itunes.html](https://www.apple.com/feedback/itunes.html)

~~~
Tepix
Choose "request an app" there.

------
zkomp
What? I really looked forward to this.

Gaming in the apple eco system is horrible already but not even be allowed to
stream?

Extremely stupid, Outright hostile

"Business conflict"? Now Apple suddenly becomes a real obstruction in my life
and ultimately an enemy. This is switch to android level of bad.

~~~
reaperducer
_stupid... hostile... a real obstruction in my life... an enemy_

I think I'll clip and save this comment to demonstrate to my students the
definition of an "overreaction."

~~~
Zooper
I'll not save it, and continue labeling any business entity that obstructs any
of my freedoms for profit as an enemy.

------
philo23
I don't actually see it happening, but it'd be nice if Valve just released the
source code and let people compile it for themselves.

I don't think there's any "secret sauce" in the Steam in-home streaming that's
actually proprietary/private. It's just a H264 video stream in one direction
and controller button presses in the other, over a custom made low latency
protocol.

Given Apple and Valve seemed to be working together to bring VR to the Mac
recently, I'm surprised they weren't given any leeway at all.

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
Theres even an open-source version in Java called Moonlight or so.

~~~
acous
I believe Moonlight uses Nvidia's GameStream protocol, so it's not quite the
same (you need an Nvidia card to use it).

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
You're right, I confused those two.

------
djrogers
Like many other time this has happened, I expect we'll find out that
everything we've heard in the first 24 hours was incomplete or just plain
wrong, and in a few days this will all get resolved.

Of course the angriest out there will simply claim it was the result of Apple
buckling to public outcry rather than self-correcting over a mistake or
misunderstanding, but then those people will always choose to see malevolence
in any corporate actions they don't like.

------
LUmBULtERA
They've just made a huge mistake. Upset the hardcore gamers market to stop
essentially a remote desktop app?

~~~
rafadc
I guess the problem is the store. The app allows to access valve's store
(which is far cheaper than games in the apple store). If they remove the
ability to buy games I am sure the remote desktop app would be ok.

I am guessing anyway

~~~
Ragnarork
I have a hard time with this explanation, as the Steam Store is already
available through the iOS Steam app which is available on the Apple app store.

~~~
JetSetWilly
You can't buy games using the Steam Store app.

~~~
icecreammatt
You can buy games with the existing Steam app. I do it all the time during the
sales.

~~~
JetSetWilly
My bad, I remember trying to before and being unable to, I just assumed it
would be the same situation as the kindle app.

~~~
boterock
You can't buy games that are in the iOS store from within the Steam app

------
tracker1
Apple, pissing off game developers since 1976.

~~~
mihaifm
Also nobody seems to care about the app developers who probably spent months
developing this app, to see it go to waste over a bussiness decision.

~~~
richmarr
While I'm a bit sympathetic with the devs here, they got paid, and this was
always going to be a risky proposition. They must have known that.

Adding the 3rd largest app store in the US to iOS was always going to be a
seizmic shift on the App Store and could cannibalise large parts of the iOS
game category.

------
tambourine_man
I've been saying this for years. There needs to be big scary button with lots
of warnings that allows the users to download and run whatever binary they
want. That should be guaranteed by law for any turing machine.

Curated stores are a great idea but there has to be an alternative.

~~~
ProAm
It all comes down to who owns the machine. In this case you are really just
leasing it from Apple.

------
jannes
Maybe some mid-level manager at Apple is trying to get a promotion with this.

"Look at how loyal and useful I am to the company. I saw this revenue-
threatening thing in the news and I killed it."

~~~
Cthulhu_
You'd think they would've blocked e.g. Netflix and such as well (esp. from the
Apple TV), given how those payments go around Apple as well. Actually there's
probably an agreement between those parties somewhere.

------
pjc50
I've been waiting for a company of this to just go full litigation as a result
of something like this.

The lack of a premium "please give us a representative we can negotiate this
with and get an actual explanation from" tier is a serious problem.

------
pmarreck
I'm not sure anything has angered me as a long-time Apple fan (seriously,
since 1984) this much (because I've also been a gamer at least that long).

This is some creepy-[girl/boy]friend level of control.

Congratulations, you've succeeded in pissing off any Apple fan who enjoys
gaming while thinking that a PC app running on the phone with some amount of
latency and resolution loss (not to mention likely illegible onscreen UI
elements depending on how things are rendered) is somehow going to compete
with a native iOS app.

------
sometimesijust
[https://github.com/moonlight-stream/moonlight-
ios](https://github.com/moonlight-stream/moonlight-ios)

~~~
joshschreuder
I'm really looking forward to this on the Switch once the hacks start to
solidify

------
AnIdiotOnTheNet
Considering Valve's recent shenanigans regarding visual novels, it's hard not
to laugh about this. As the RPS article put it: "Ah, it’s terrible when a
digital store approve your products then turn around and removes ’em."

------
Tepix
Apple seems to be confused. To use this app my PC (or Mac) must be running the
game and I must be in the same LAN. How is there a business conflict?

It's not like mobile games are competing with desktop games.

------
gigatexal
Apple is wrong here.

------
tzfld
The need for decentralized and functional app stores are more real than ever.

------
SwetDrems
This is why I'm so excited for WASM: the tech is great, but its ability to
break down barriers to entry to markets for new and upcoming players is what
makes it socially meaningful and worth supporting.

------
bluthru
Apple continuing to chase revenue from apps and services really worries me.

------
mwnivek
Previous discussion here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17149470](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17149470)

------
earenndil
Interesting, since chrome remote desktop is there which (I assume -- never
used it) would allow you to remote-desktop into your computer and run steam.

------
pmarreck
As an apple user and gamer, this angers me.

------
baxtr
I don’t think this will last for long...

------
trisimix
Guess Im done with apple

------
tormeh
I would switch to iPhone if Apple weren't like this.

------
stephenr
Can someone please update this to the canonical non-amp URL:

[https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/24/17392470/apple-rejects-
va...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/24/17392470/apple-rejects-valve-steam-
link-app-store-ios-game-steaming)

Apart from not supporting googles effort to control the web, the amp page
loads _slower_ than the original and has a ridiculous “cookie agreement” with
a button that doesn’t work.

~~~
tokenizerrr
This page is hosted by the verge themselves so has absolutely nothing to do
with Google trying to control the web. It also does not load slower.

~~~
stephenr
The _concept_ of amp is google trying to control the web.

Also, my understanding is that all amp pages have to load the _required_ js
from an amp project cdn, which is ultimately a google cdn.

And yes, it most definitely does load slower for me - I have nothing but a
blank white page for several seconds.

~~~
criley2
>And yes, it most definitely does load slower for me - I have nothing but a
blank white page for several seconds.

This is quite obviously an error state, likely caused by an extension of
yours. Have you tried using Amp in a fresh install of a different browser?
Using different network settings?

It seems very likely that you are the reason amp doesn't work for you.

And this is coming from an amp hater.

~~~
MrRadar
The issue is that for some reason amp usually seems to block the content from
being displayed until the javascript loads, which strikes me as the exact
opposite of what an "accelerated mobile page" should do (almost like it was
designed by an advertising company wanting to discourage ad blockers...). You
can bypass it by activating reader mode in your browser.

~~~
superkuh
Not only that, but AMP pages are _only_ potentially perceived as 'fast' when
you access them through google's search. When you do that all the AMP links'
assets are pre-loaded in the background so it seems fast when you click
through. But AMP pages themselves are just the same speed as anything else or
slower when access without google's monopoly position pre-load.

------
swebs
Wow, when trying to access this from the EU, I'm blocked by this huge pop-up
telling me to either accept their tracking or fuck off. The cookie policy
makes no mention on how to access the site without clicking "I accept", it
just directs you to optout.aboutads.info.

[https://i.imgur.com/dK73MUi.png](https://i.imgur.com/dK73MUi.png)

Is this really GDPR compliant?

~~~
tialaramex
No. Basically the GDPR is structured around a whole bunch of reasons why you
might _need_ to store and process data about people ("Subjects"), for which
you have implicit permission because it's necessary to something you're doing
for the Subject. You need to make sure Subjects can find out what you needed,
and why, and you can't change your mind later.

These purposes do not need Consent. You don't need to Consent to a retailer
knowing your credit card number when you use the card to buy something. You
don't need to Consent to Amazon knowing your delivery address when you buy
stuff.

Consent comes in when you and the Subject both want to enable processing that
isn't necessary. For example, if I buy a book from Amazon, it makes sense that
I'd get a confirmatory email saying I ordered the book, and they're agreeing
to sell it to me, and another one saying the book has been shipped and will be
with me in 2-4 days. Those feel pretty necessary. But why would I get email
about how great Amazon's new Fire tablet is? Well, Amazon could try asking me
for Consent to send that sort of crap to me.

The GDPR is clear that you can't insist on implied Consent, you can't have "By
visiting this web page I consent" or "To stop receiving our marketing, just
unselect the default-selected boxes in the marketing permissions sub-section
of your user profile, this may take up to 400 years to take effect" or similar
nonsense. It needs to be a clear informed choice to give you this extra
permission.

Some of the specifics will get litigated. I'm sure somebody will try to claim
it's "necessary" to their business to track people and sell everything they
possibly can, and I expect European courts to decide that's laughable
nonsense.

~~~
criley2
>I'm sure somebody will try to claim it's "necessary" to their business to
track people and sell everything they possibly can, and I expect European
courts to decide that's laughable nonsense.

Who pays the verge for the reporting that you wish to read?

Is this verge reporting on this article made for free, by a volunteer, etc?

Or were they paid?

OK, so the Verge is a business, who has to make money.

How do they make money? Are you paying them to read this article? No?

So they sell advertisements to make money to show you content.

" I'm sure somebody will try to claim it's "necessary" to their business to
track people and sell everything they possibly can"

In this case, tracking you through cookies for advertising purposes seems to
be a "necessary" part of the verge, as it is literally a core aspect of the
monetization strategy to offer free content in exchange for tracked
advertising, as they explain in the pop-up.

No ads = no content. I can't see a European court claiming that Europeans have
a right to free content in violation of the monetization strategy of the
author. At the end of the day, verges servers are private servers and you do
have to agree to their terms of use before connecting to their servers. In
this case, the terms of use of connecting to a verge server for free articles
is advertising tracking.

Good luck suing them, but what would be the end game? Ruin their business
model?

~~~
iamaelephant
Newspapers and magazines have sold advertising without individual reader
targeting for years and it continues to be a viable business model.
Individually tracking users is not necessary.

~~~
criley2
>Newspapers and magazines have sold advertising without individual reader
targeting for years and it continues to be a viable business model

Newspapers and magazines charges a subscription. Are you suggesting we should
now charge Europeans a subscriptions where we do not for others? I'm ok with
that. Don't want tracking? Then give me your credit card and subscribe, or
there's the door.

Plus, nearly all newspapers are in economic free fall, advertising was
completely destroyed by the internet, and there are almost no newspapers which
are in the "green" without having an internet product or being owned by a
larger corporation.

~~~
adamjc
> Then give me your credit card and subscribe, or there's the door.

I don't understand this type of thinking from some of the posters here on HN,
as if GDPR is right now personally affecting you in a negative way. It's a
very aggressive way of writing and I've seen a few posters comment in this
way.

If you want an example of a company that does non-personalised advertising and
is successful: DuckDuckGo.

~~~
criley2
How do you know I am not personally affected by freeloaders who wish to steal
content from me and use laws as justification for their entitlement to free
no-strings access to my work?

That's very presumptuous.

~~~
adamjc
a) If you were, you would have mentioned it by now. Your name appears all over
this thread, it's incredible how much GDPR has aggravated you.

b) If you _are_ running a website and don't wish us 'thieving Europeans', then
don't allows traffic from Europe.

This is the perplexing thing about your seemingly apoplectic rage on this
topic. There are options available for these companies who still want to track
people individually.

Calm down.

------
stephenr
I commented two hours ago asking for the URL to be set to the canonical one
not the amp one.

It’s been upvoted at least 40 times, but appears at the bottom of the comments
and is collapsed-by-default.

What’s the deal, HN?

~~~
Karunamon
Probably because it's off topic meta noise, like complaints about paywalls.
You'd probably be better served by emailing hn@ycombinator.com.

~~~
stephenr
I mean, the URL _was_ changed, it seems. I was more questioning the ghosting
of the comment in spite of upvotes, _without_ any kind of notice/reasoning.

"Troll" comments get removed with an explanation.

~~~
dang
Yes but when something is obviously off topic, that should be explanation
enough. On HN we try to respect readers' intelligence and make no attempt to
spell everything out, which would be tedious.

------
snarfy
I can already hear the Apple apologists defending them, something about Valve
not adhering to the highest standards and best quality, some BS like that.

~~~
jrs95
Unfortunately Apple has to enforce the technicalities around their rules for
apps or they legally won’t be able to enforce them at all. I wouldn’t be
surprised if a revised version of the app ends up making it to the store.

------
gehsty
I am not really suprised by this, buying games and then play them outside of
the appstore is not exactly in the spirit of the apples guidelines.

This is clearly different from a remote desktop app.

I'm 100% sure this would be allowed back in if they built it without the
ability to make purchases...

Not saying I agree with it but a Company such as Valve should know this is
going to happen.

~~~
stalf
Apparently, Valve told Reuters it had disabled the in-app purchase options,
and still got canned.

[https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-apple-steam/apple-
blocks-s...](https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-apple-steam/apple-blocks-
steams-plan-to-extend-its-video-games-to-iphones-idUKKCN1IQ09D)

~~~
maxwell
But GP was _100%_ sure!

~~~
gehsty
Haha! 50% of the time I’m right 100% of the time!

If they are blocking the app and there is absolutely no way for people to
purchase and play games then I think apple are in the wrong.

