
The Archetypal Resonance of Classic JRPGs - hyperindexed
https://www.hyperindexed.com/blog/2019/4/6/the-archetypal-resonance-of-classic-jrpgs
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angarg12
Sometimes I play retro games, and I feel like nostalgia makes us excuse what
is plain bad design. I have that feeling every time I play an old JRPG. Many
of them feel slow, clunky, with painful mechanics... as opposed to current
games, which had the experience from decades to get refined. The argument in
favour of this is that the bad and boring parts make the good bits even
better, in a sort of stoic way, they feel like a reward for the suffering. I
leave as an exercise to the reader to draw their own conclusion.

~~~
badsectoracula
What sort of conclusion is there to be drawn when you have already labeled the
older games as slow, clunky with painful mechanics and newer games as refined?
:-P

I've seen many people say (about games in general) that older games often have
more depth in contrast of newer more "casualized" games that cater to the
lowest common denominator as often as people say what you wrote. At the end is
really about personal taste and if there is one objective thing that older
games often do worse (apart from technical limitations, although with the
popularity of retro-styled games nowadays often these limitations are seen
through a stylistic prism) is their user interfaces. But even that divides
people in how much they can endure it (and as Dwarf Fortress shows, a lot of
people will endure the most obnoxious of UIs to get something they like).

As an example, there are many people who like grinding in JRPGs and some even
consider it as a defining element of JRPGs (in that a JRPG is not real JRPG if
it doesn't have grinding) whereas others are perplexed by the idea of anyone
liking grinding and not seeing it as a cheap way to pad the game's length and
something that developers should strive towards eliminating.

~~~
phowon
>As an example, there are many people who like grinding in JRPGs and some even
consider it as a defining element of JRPGs (in that a JRPG is not real JRPG if
it doesn't have grinding)

I am one such person who is happy to argue for the fact that ability to grind
is one of the (maybe two?) defining traits of a JRPG. The option to
meaningfully strengthen your player avatar that is not tied to story/game
progression is the heart of JRPGs.

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porknubbins
JRPGs look like yet another piece in the puzzle that so many things in
contemporary Japanese popular culture seem to peak around the same time in the
90s (anime, fashion, popular music, industrial design etc). I’d guess this too
is related to what Masachi Osawa calls the “fictional era” when the national
psyche kind of turned inward to escapism and fantasy. I don’t see this talked
about much in English or even Japanese for that matter but would be
interesting to try to figure out why a cultural output peaked and the
stagnated.

~~~
level3
It's probably not talked about much because I don't think many people agree
that all those things peaked in the 90s, outside of some sense of nostalgia.
Objectively, all of the cultural outputs you mentioned have continued to grow,
so any sense of peaking is probably based mainly on subjective taste.

~~~
porknubbins
Some of it comes down to taste certainly but I stil think theres an argument
to be made that the kind of cutting edge stuff that was allowed to make it
into the mainstream in Japan at that time represents distinctly identifiable
period (if peak is too strong a word because $ and volume of output has gone
up as you point out.) kind of like how in the us were seeing articles asking
why hollywood made The Matrix in 99 and a million comic sequels today, Japan
bloggers are wondering why One Peice and Idol groups dominate?

~~~
level3
I agree with you that the output of the 90s represents an identifiable period
in Japanese pop culture, but don't agree with the original sentiment of things
having necessarily "stagnated" since then. There may be an argument, as you
suggest, that the period was more progressive in a sense, but I'd have to see
more examples of what you're talking about before I could agree.

The dominance of things like One Piece or AKB48 don't preclude the creation of
"cutting edge" stuff, though they might certainly drown those out and make
them less visible. I think something similar could be said for the 90s, with
the popularity of Dragon Ball and Morning Musume, for example (though to a
lesser degree). Still, the Internet has allowed for the creation and
popularity of lots of interesting stuff, even if they may not be "mainstream."

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phlakaton
Seeing the callout to Xenoblade's music drew me back to listening to that
soundtrack again... whence I stumbled upon 8-bit Music Theory's channel, and
analysis of Chrono Trigger's and FFVI's music... and that's to say nothing of
Secret of Mana or a half-dozen other incredible JRPG soundtracks.

I'm probably weird, but the music, more than just about anything, is what
brings me back to these JRPG games again and again. The mechanics may be
clunky, the sound systems primitive, but those peculiar fusions of Western and
Japanese musical sensibilities, played out over fantasy after fantasy, are
timeless.

~~~
jstewartmobile
Google "City Pop"

I stumbled on to it a year or so ago, and it's pretty obvious how hard most
classic video game music cribbed from it.

~~~
1123581321
I’m finding a lot of disco- and funk-influenced easy listening pop; am I
listening to the wrong thing? Is there a particular song that would help me
see the connection?

~~~
jstewartmobile
Most Castlevania games since playstation era:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ljSD1rZzUE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ljSD1rZzUE)

Pieces of Sonic:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0g79mTyjE0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0g79mTyjE0)

Bits of Xenoblade Chronicles (esp gaur plains):
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8xfT4l2Gnw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8xfT4l2Gnw)

UMN / cities in various Xenosaga installments:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cj8yrPSo_Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cj8yrPSo_Q)

~~~
1123581321
That helps! I’ll keep listening, too. Thank you; I love finding out about
something new like this.

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Madmallard
I played Lufia 2 recently and it felt really tedious at times but the
characters, dialogue and ending felt realistic and wholesome that it kept me
engaged and sad when it was all over. Maybe nostalgia helps us single out
older games when surely there's many like it nowadays hidden among the
oversaturated mess.

~~~
bstamour
Lufia 2 is one of my absolute favourite SNES-era RPG's. I try to replay it
every few years.

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probably_wrong
> I now feel compelled to work through the other great RPGs of the era. In
> addition to the mainstays (e.g., Final Fantasy 7-9), I’m especially keen to
> play through the other titles that have been forgotten or underrated, like
> Chrono Cross and Terranigma.

Interesting that he's going to barely miss Final Fantasy VI and Chrono
Trigger.

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default-kramer
I love almost all the Xeno- games, but I think the first Xenoblade Chronicles
is my favorite. You travel through a huge world one step at a time (no
overworld map). Due the way the game was structured, I never used fast travel
(I can't remember if it was even available). So at the end of the game, I had
this amazing feeling of having actually taken every single step of the
journey, a feeling no other RPG has given me.

~~~
b_tterc_p
Agreed. The sequel, Xenoblade X arguably did this even better by having
everything be one continuous map which, after painstakingly exploring it by
foot, you can eventually hop in a flying mech and suddenly have immensely
satisfying freedom that you deeply desired before.

Xenoblade 2 went in the completely wrong direction. Lots of linear maps,
completely separated worlds, some sort of weird tidal mechanic that supposedly
blocked things off sometimes but was way too obscure to notice...

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smaili
> Suffice to say, the average PS1 JRPG contains a very archetypal story.

I'm not sure how others feel but to me I've definitely noticed a much stronger
emphasis on wowing visual effects in today's RPG's and a much weaker focus on
the story and plot lines as was the case in past games.

~~~
phowon
>I've definitely noticed a much stronger emphasis on wowing visual effects in
today's RPG's and a much weaker focus on the story and plot lines as was the
case in past games.

This basically started in the PS3 era, where it appeared that the casual
consumer's bar of visual graphics were raised high enough that pushed up
development costs, to the point where developer couldn't cheaply churn out
interesting, experimental titles.

Many people will cite the SNES and PS1 era as the golden age of JRPGs, but I
think the PS2 era is under-appreciated. The SNES/PS1 era had a lot of
classics, but the PS2 era was absolutely flooded with great, 8/10 JRPGs across
all manner of series, benefiting from the gameplay/UI/UX refinements learned
from the SNES/PS1 era and the improved hardware capabilities of the PS2. You
had participation across all manner of series: from your popular Final
Fantasies and Dragon Quests, to Tales, Persona, Star Ocean, Suikoden, Wild
Arms, Breath of Fire, Arc the Lad and so on. You had a whole generation of new
entrants like Radiata Stories, Shadow Hearts, Atelier, Dark Cloud, Rogue
Galaxy, Xenosaga, .Hack, and many others. Not all of these were amazing, but
most of these were at least very good, and in particular they were diverse
while also being streamlined as some of the visual/gameplay "language" JRPGs
become more firmly established. To me, this was the last great age of JRPGs.

~~~
hyperindexed
Certainly agree, regarding the PS2 era! Having the chance to play a remastered
version of Persona 4 on the Vita, for me, was justification enough for buying
the handheld.

~~~
cnasc
P4G is great. In terms of money per hour of entertainment I definitely got
huge value. I never finished the game (really, I just can't dump 80ish hours
into a game anymore), but I really enjoyed what I did play.

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andrepd
Very interesting reflexions. JRPGs, there's just something about them.

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Nr7
I've noticed a formulaic approach in Japanese video game development, where
most games within a genre seem to have very similar mechanics as opposed to
western made games. The RPG genre seems to be the most obvious example. If you
take a modern JRPG (like one of the new Pokemon games for example) and compare
it to an old Final Fantasy game from the NES there are a lot of similarities
in the mechanics, like random encounters & combat, the way NPC dialogue is
implemented, inventory management etc.

Now I'm not saying that they are identical games or that there hasn't been no
innovation but to me it seems that for different Japanese games within a
genre, there's usually one or two features that are done differently to stand
out from the mass and everything else is done "like it's always been done". It
seems like the thought process is something like: "RPGs consist of these
features so we must have these features in the game for it to be an RPG".

Also I'm not saying that western games can't be or aren't formulaic, but if
you take an old Ultima game from the 80's and compare that to modern western
RPGs like Skyrim or Witcher or Diablo it seems very different, mechanics wise.
Or if you take the Mass Effect trilogy and look at just the inventory
management in them it is very different in each game. It seems to me like
western developers are more eager to (sometimes unsuccessfully) improve,
replace and/or reinvent gaming mechanics and they also are not afraid to blur
the lines between genres. Many games from different genres seem to have, for
example, at least some RPG elements in them these days.

I'm not implying that one way is better than another, that's a matter of
taste. It's just an interesting point that I personally have noticed. It's
especially interesting when you think that when not "chained" to a specific
genre, Japanese developers can come up with something completely unheard of
like Katamari Damacy for example.

Has anyone else noticed this or am I just imagining things?

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zeckalpha
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_Eden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_Eden)
was recently released in English, from the same creator of Xenogears / Chrono
Cross / Chrono Trigger.

~~~
jamesgeck0
I'd give it a skip unless you've already played his other stuff. What I saw of
the plot seemed rather derivative of Chrono Trigger, with a much simpler
battle system and long, meandering cutscenes.

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anp
This resonates quite strongly with me, and I would recommend Suikoden 1/2 for
the same reasons.

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haolez
Suikoden 2 is a master piece. It manages to include 108 party characters (most
aren’t allowed to participate in combat), and you feel that you know every
single one of them and that all of them have an impact in the story.

Also, it has aged well :)

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a-afterglow
I just started playing Xenogears last Friday and do agree with the first few
paragraphs of the article.

Stopped reading before halfway through when I realized it was getting
spoilerish, though.

Playing this and Kingdom Hearts 3 back to back makes me realize that the charm
some of the classics have is not pure nostalgia, but I still can't put my
finger on it. Saying that, Persona 5 is a recent JRPG that I thoroughly
enjoyed like those I played as a kid.

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szatkus
Can I play Persona 5 without playing earlier games?

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a-afterglow
Yeah, there's almost zero connection between the games besides some background
lore or easter eggs that are not important for the main story of each entry.

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pier25
Every couple of years I replay Front Mission 3. It's not exactly a JRPG but it
shares a lot of similarities with the genre. Every time it surprises me how
such an outdated and simple game (by today's standards) can hook me.

Many times I've fantasized about making a modern clone...

~~~
headsoup
There seems to be constant repetition of the idea that simple == outdated and
complex == modern.

Many of those classic games may not have depth in complex mechanics or breadth
of story narratives, but that does not mean they do not contain deep or
significant meaning or underlying narrative constructs. At a minimum it does
not mean that they lack strong and compelling game design.

I tend to view those (sorry, generalising a little) that dismiss 'classic'
games by declaring them 'out of date' as projecting how clever they are by
defining complexity == intelligent, regardless of the quality of design, depth
of meaning or coherence in narrative.

~~~
pier25
I've never thought of it this way.

My biggest problem with older games is how clunky the controls can be. This is
not the case with all games, but it is a very common one. Specially when video
games started to move from 2D to 3D.

For example, the first Mario Kart for SNES is still an amazing game. Nintendo
got everything right, specially the kart handling. I still play it from time
to time and it is great fun. In contrast the first Wipeout game for PSX has
terrible handling compared to the newer ones which are amazing in this respect
(Wipeout HD, Fury, 2048).

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muzani
I don't think this is just JRPGs. I feel no such connection with JRPGs, but I
do I feel that way with idle games. There's a kind of meditative comfort with
gradual, guaranteed progression, but where there's still a spark of discovery
as well.

