
The "Machiavellian Reality" -- speech by Robert Greene - pprov
http://www.powerseductionandwar.com/archives/robert_greene_yale_speech.phtml
======
timb
"The other thing that primates have that is so bizarre and interesting is that
they are the only animal we know that practice deception and games of
manipulation among each other. There is no other animal on the planet that we
can say that about."

Some male cuttlefish will pretend to be female in order to sneak past the
alpha male and mate with the female he is guarding. I am sure there are many,
many other examples of non-primates using deception/manipulation.

~~~
yters
There are plenty of deceptive bugs and other critters. Like stick insects,
frog fish, chameleons, etc.

~~~
epo
Camouflage to avoid being eaten isn't quite the same thing. It is the
difference between gaining an advantage as distinct from avoiding a
disadvantage.

~~~
mhb
Pitcher plant

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bhoung
Really enjoyed the article. I've skimmed Greene's book and thought it was just
a modernisation of Machiavelli's "The Prince". This article really shows how
passionate he is about understanding and accepting human nature. Because
Greene's book is prescriptive in that it lists 48 laws, I had thought there
wasn't that much depth to it. I'm pleasantly surprised by Greene's insight.

~~~
JanezStupar
I own the three bestsellers (48 laws, 33 strategies, art of seduction).
Calling it modernization of The Prince is wrong (I also own The Prince AND
Discourses on Livy) - it is more a condensate of the works of people he refers
to and cites: Niccolo Machiavelli, Sun Tzu, Baltasar Gracian, Otto Von
Bismarck, Carl Von Clausevitz, Napoleon, Platon, Aristoteles, Friedrich
Nietzche...

All the great classics - as such Greene's work is an excellent intro into the
world of classic political and strategic theory... What I have realized after
reading some of these classic writer's works is that many of philosophers that
are so popular today were nothing short of charlatans - this field (strategy
and politics) has been so well researched that classics are indeed the best
reference.

I particularly love Sun Tzu and Machiavelli's Discourses on Livy (you won't
understand prince unless you have read Discourses - Prince on its own is a
dangerous book. For me it is more a satirical piece and if you fail to grasp
sarcasm in it you might get burned).

~~~
lhnz
Is it a mistake that I'm reading Prince before Discourse on Livy? What should
I know...

~~~
JanezStupar
No mistake. A mistake would be to only read The Prince.

The key point I have taken from the Prince - notice how Niccolo keeps bringing
about examples of successful tyrants? Have you noticed that none of this
tyrants has died of old age?

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jdp23
Robert's profiling Paul Graham (along with a dozen or so other people) in his
next book.

~~~
Psyonic
Any hint on the topic?

~~~
ryanholiday
He briefly mentions the next book in the speech (quoted below) and I'm sure
more will come, but the concept of mastery which is a theme in all Robert's
books is the common thread between the people he interviewed

In the book that I'm writing now, I can talk about it later, if you'd like,
I'm interviewing eight of the most eminent people in the world today in
different fields -- In neuroscience, in architecture, in music. All of them
are inherently non-conformists. All of them are inherently bucking the trend
and taking their field in a completely novel direction by bringing out more of
that uniqueness that I was talking about."

~~~
Psyonic
Thanks Ryan. By the way, I'm happy to see you're on HN. I'm a fan of your
writing.

------
Gilpo
If you haven't read Greene's Yale Speech
<[http://www.powerseductionandwar.com/archives/robert_greene_y...](http://www.powerseductionandwar.com/archives/robert_greene_yale_speech.phtml>),
it's worth it.

"There are three types of people in this world in dealing with this social
reality. There are, what I call, the deniers, the people who deny this reality
exists. They almost want to pretend that we are descended from angels and not
from primates."

"Among these deniers, you will find two types. You will find people who are
genuinely disturbed by the politicking aspect of human nature. They don't want
any kind of job in which they have to do that. You will find that they are
slowly marginalized. They can be happy that way. They are never going to
assume a position of great responsibility because it involves all of this."

"The other branch of the deniers are the people that are the passive-
aggressors. ... People who consciously don't want to admit that there is any
kind of manipulation involved, but unconsciously are playing all kinds of
games."

"The second type of person besides the deniers are those who love this
Machiavellian part of our nature and revel in it and are master manipulators,
and con artists, and connivers and are very aggressive."

The third type is what I am calling the radical realist. It is what I am
proposing that you adopt."

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sabalaba
After having worked in the 'real world' for the past couple of months (back in
school to finish up my degree now), I can only agree that this is the
unfortunate reality of the world. However, I wish that Greene didn't choose
such a left-hand path interpretation of influence.

A word and concept, that only showed up once in the entire article, _empathy_
, seems to be a much more reasonable way to deal with the social politics that
we all face.

"I make the point that you are not going to get far unless you are the kind of
person that knows how to think inside the other person's mind."

The difference between that and empathy, the difference between the left-hand
and right-hand path to power and influence, seems to be how genuine the intent
is. Thinking inside the other person's mind is one thing, but putting yourself
in their shoes, understanding and _validating_ their feelings has a completely
different intention. One is to manipulate, the other, to understand.

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jackvalentine
Did anybody happen to download the mp3 of the speech before the 4shared host
got swamped? I would be in your debt if you were to throw up a mirror of it.

~~~
pronoiac
I got it. Here's a mirror:

[http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3102685/cache/robertgreene/WS710007....](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3102685/cache/robertgreene/WS710007.mp3)

~~~
mise
Edit: Skip to 4:20.

Worked perfectly, thanks. I was going around in circles on that MP3 site.

