
A conversation about open source licenses - ashchristopher
https://gist.github.com/972893
======
chapel
It is sad how this has been misrepresented.

First of all, this was an email conversation between Ryan Dahl and Zed Shaw.
That you know. What you probably don't know is that Ryan first posted this
tweet [0] about rewriting Zed's http parser. Zed then responded twice [1] &
[2], vehemently. Ryan then responded with a single "?" to Zed's outbursts.
That is when Zed said this: "@ryah And don't make me bust out the fucking
email you sent me trying to trick me into giving you a MIT license. I swear
I'll trash you." [3] Then shortly after another attack [4]. Ryan then again
responded somewhat confused: "@zedshaw http-parser uses nginx's url parser,
and your external c api (it's a good api) but it's not a modified ver. of
mongrel's http11. ??" [5] After that he offered up the above link with the
email conversation Zed alluded to [6].

If you know anything about the http parser, you would know that it was written
by Ryan and is no longer an issue. That is why the license was changed, why
give attribution to Zed if he didn't write anything? Not to mention after the
above outburst.

The title of this post is wrong, misleading, and linkbait.

[0]: <https://twitter.com/ryah/status/69557901546631168>

[1]: <http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69583774119239681>

[2]: <http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69584110305284097>

[3]: <http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69584284339544064>

[4]: <http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69618172252274688>

[5]: <http://twitter.com/ryah/status/69620659650699264>

[6]: <http://twitter.com/ryah/status/69624489893314560>

~~~
piotrSikora
<http://bettween.com/ryah/zedshaw/May-07-2011/May-15-2011/asc> is far more
readable ;)

But back on topic... Even if Ryan really rewritten all of the original
mongrel's code by hand, then there is still issue with nginx-based portions.
Why there is no attribution to _Igor Sysoev_?

~~~
chapel
Yeah, but what is the fun in that?

If it was rewritten, with all new code, why would there need to be
attribution?

~~~
piotrSikora
Ryan said that the current version uses nginx's URL parser, so clearly not
everything is new code.

~~~
chapel
Here you go: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2549813>

~~~
piotrSikora
Here you go: [https://github.com/ry/http-
parser/commit/8dabce6ec7142319bc5...](https://github.com/ry/http-
parser/commit/8dabce6ec7142319bc5c883ff53bf7302f0d83ce)

~~~
chapel
Awesome, that clears that up.

------
tzs
I haven't done much open source (all I've got out there is a thing to suck a
small newsfeed from an NNTP server, a simple NNTP cache, three Warhammer
Online add-ons, and a Talisman calculator for Wahammer Online), as my job at a
mostly closed source company raises enough challenges to occupy all of the
time I have for programming.

However, Zed Shaw really tempts me to make time to get involved in open
source, especially in projects that will have some tangential connection to
him. That's because I haven't been in a really good flame war with a worthy
opponent since the old usenet days. From what I've read, it seems he would be
more than worthy and not too hard to provoke. :-)

~~~
zedshaw
Oh you're one of those guys who thinks that you're somehow trolling by just
being a dipshit. As if my reaction to your stupidity is somehow causing me
great pain, when the truth is it's just damn funny to tell someone who insults
me to suck a goat cock and then watch them flail at words.

Just being wrong and giggling when people correct you is level 0 trolling. If
you really want to troll you gotta step up your game and do something like any
of these:

<http://mulletdb.com/> <http://livingdouchebag.com/> <http://programming-
motherfucker.com/>

If you can pull off projects like that, and open source them, then I'll be one
of your fans. If all you do is try to provoke me, then I'll just end up making
you look like the dumbass you actually are.

(So something like that is what you want? :-)

EDIT: mulletdb.com is better.

~~~
bwghughes
Have you considered developing some proprietary code? :-)

~~~
zedshaw
I do, but it's not as fun.

------
tmcw
This "Zed" guy has a "oh, cool" to "I WILL FIGHT YOU" transition time of about
five minutes. It's sad that his short temper colors his excellent work so
much. [1] Especially when this started with a compliment [0]...

[0]: <https://twitter.com/ryah/status/69554939323629568>

[1]: Oh crap, now Zed Shaw's gonna challenge me to a duel.

------
swanson
Seems like Ryan re-opened the can of worms by tweeting about Ragel with a
subtle jab at Zed ("Ragel was hindering. Needs a better 'when' operator.").

It sounds like Ryan is saying that he re-wrote it because of technical
reasons, when from the email exchange, it is really because of licensing.
That's kind of sketchy to me.

Right or wrong, I think that if node was using mongrel/nginx stuff at any
point they should still give some attribution. It certainly seems like the
code was helpful in getting the project started regardless of the fact that
all the code has been rewritten in later releases.

------
callmeed
It's hard to know anyone's actual intentions from the outside, but I think Zed
has a point.

It's interesting that Ryan works for Joyent, who is doing a major push into
Node.js services–including "Commercial Node.js distribution" ... I'm not a
license expert but it seems that MIT would be better for that.

------
reinhardt
Can someone explain what was the fuss about ? So Zed was cool to relicense it
thinking it was about some project X and got pissed off when he learned it was
going to be (also) used in project Y ? WTF ?!

~~~
asomiv
It looks like Zed is pissed about Ryan trying to hide his intentions to profit
from Zed's work through Node.js (Node.js has commercial activities attached to
it). Zed is not pissed about whether or not Ryan actually profits from it,
only the way he appears to be doing it in a sneaky way.

~~~
blago
Node.js had no comercial activities in Nov 2009. In fact, this exchange
happened right after JSConf 2009 which is when the world at large learned
about node.

------
spoondan
This feels like a simple misunderstanding. I think Ryan just assumed that Zed
knew they were already talking about Node.js. With that assumption in mind,
when Ryan wrote, "this is included in some of my other projects," he really
meant, "this is _also_ included in some of my other projects." That seems a
more likely interpretation than Ryan trying to trick Zed into re-licensing the
code.

------
stock_toaster
I assume this is somehow related the joyent's assumption of copyright on the
node code (stewardship).

Is there any background on why this was posted in a gist (and why it was
submitted to HN)?

~~~
callmeed
>> Is there any background on why this was posted in a gist

<http://bettween.com/ryah/zedshaw/May-07-2011/May-15-2011/asc>

~~~
stock_toaster
Thanks!

------
piotrSikora
http-parser is based on parsers from mongrel and/or nginx (at least in parts),
yet the LICENSE file says _Joyent, Inc. and other Node contributors._... No
mention of the original copyright holders ( _Zed Shaw_ and/or _Igor Sysoev_ )
_tsk_ _tsk_

~~~
bnoordhuis
There isn't a shred of the original mongrel parser left. I'm not 100% sure but
http-parser looks more like it's inspired by nginx than that it actually
contains nginx code.

Disclosure: I know both http-parser and nginx fairly well. I'm one of the
'other Node contributors'. :-)

~~~
piotrSikora
But it was Ryan who said that it does:
<http://twitter.com/#!/ryah/status/69620659650699264>

~~~
notJim
If you read to the bottom of the email chain here:
<http://twitter.com/#!/ryah/status/69624489893314560>, ry says he rewrote the
parser.

~~~
piotrSikora
You've missed the fact that this e-mail is from 2009 and tweet is from
yesterday. Surely a lot changed in the meantime.

Anyway, _Igor Sysoev_ was just added to the LICENSE file, so EOT.

