
Latvia blocking extradition of Gozi writer due to disproportionate US sentencing - Libertatea
http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/08/05/latvia-blocking-extradition-of-gozi-writer-thanks-to-disproportionate-us-sentencing/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nakedsecurity+%28Naked+Security+-+Sophos%29
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PeterisP
It's widely covered here in Latvian local media - the general message is that
there are grounds to charge (and likely convict) him with a bunch of crimes
locally; but -

1) local prosecution claims that there aren't any grounds to prosecute on
~half of claims that USA wants to charge;

2) defense lawyers claim and popular sentiment (including politicians) believe
that USA doesn't have a just/fair court system for computer related crimes;

3) there is a strong position for local jurisdiction in crimes in "cyberspace"
\- if some action is legal locally, then people shouldn't care if it's illegal
in USA; if some crime carries max penalty of 5 years, as is here for computer
fraud; then extraditing him for charges of the USA requested 67 years -
essentially life sentence - is unacceptable.

~~~
walshemj
If they had robed a bank physically would they still not be extradited?

And given their neighbors experience with cyber war I woudl have expected
Latvia to take this a lot more seriously

~~~
PeterisP
The whole point is that if they physically robbed a local branch of an USA
bank, stealing money of USA citizens and say, even killing USA citizens in the
process, then they wouldn't be extradited nor prosecuted for USA laws. And, by
the way, even armed robbery w. killings (IMHO far worse than any amount of
theft/fraud) would still carry less penalty than the 67 years currently
requested, barring serious aggravating circumstances.

~~~
jordanb
It's been long established in international law that the crime occurs where
the harm occurs. That's why the Lockerbie bombers were tried in Scotland.

~~~
dragonwriter
The Lockerbie bombers were tried in the Netherlands by a Scottish Court under
Scots Law, with a weird jurisdictional set up, as part of a negotiated
compromise to resolve US/UK demands that they be tried in the US or UK, and
Libyan demands that they _not_ be tried in the US or UK, and the location and
other arrangements for the trial do not represent any "long-established
principle in international law", unless you include the principle that
international law is mostly just whatever the involved sovereign states agree
to at the time on the specific issue in question.

~~~
smutticus
>international law is mostly just whatever the involved sovereign states agree
to at the time on the specific issue in question.

Thank you. I've long made the argument that international law is arbitrary and
capricious without much buy-in from those around me. It's good to hear you say
it.

~~~
dragonwriter
I'm not saying that there aren't some fairly well-settled substantive
principles of international law that aren't just arbitrary and capricious, I'm
just saying that you don't find any of them illustrated by the decision of
where to locate the Lockerbie bombing trial.

(OTOH, even where there are well-established principles of international law,
the absence of consistent enforcement and application leads to them not being
inviolate.)

------
kybernetikos
As far as I'm concerned, the US's cultural acceptance of prison rape should be
enough to stop any extradition to the US for any crime that would garner
prison time.

~~~
octo_t
Not just prison rape, but the very idea of "prison should be as harsh as
possible" is absolutely awful.

~~~
sigzero
Hmmm...I do not know anyone with the mentality of "prison should be as harsh
as possible". Prison shouldn't be a "cake walk" either.

~~~
chongli
Personally, I'd go even further. The very idea that prison is primarily about
punishment (revenge by proxy?) instead of rehabilitation is wrongheaded.

The goal of any policy should be the betterment of society. We have plenty of
evidence to show that prisons designed for rehabilitation have lower
incidences of recidivism than harsh, punitive ones.

~~~
briandear
The recidivism rate in Sweden is 35%. Which means, that even with a
rehabilitative-oriented system, you still have 1/3 of prisoners returning to
jail. It does provide some substance to the claim that some criminals can't be
rehabilitated, because even in one of the "best" systems, you still have a
large number going back to prison.

Of course, the US recidivism rate is 67%, which is horrible, however it's very
difficult to compare Sweden and the United States simply because you have some
significant differences. It's difficult to assume that the only variable in
play between the US and Nordic countries are simply the justice system.

First, you have a demographic differences. You also have significant
differences in culture as well. In Sweden for example, single parent families
are just 20% of all families with children. Yet in the US, 67% of all black
families with children are single-parent, with 42% in the Latino community and
overall a rate of over 30% for all families with children in the United
States. In 1960, the overall rate was just 9%. I'm not arguing for or against
single parent families, but there is a strong correlation between the
likelihood of being arrested and the strength of the family unit. Here's an
article that discusses it more, including research citations:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/12/the-real-
co...](http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/12/the-real-complex-
connection-between-single-parent-families-and-crime/265860/)

Suggesting that the prison system is the primary cause of recidivism is to
miss the point. We shouldn't be focusing on recidivism, we should be focusing
on what gets people into prison in the first place.

~~~
newnewnew
Sweden has a growing problem with crime in an immigrant population[1] that
does not feel it is part of Swedish culture[2]. Soon, the Swedish will have
the same governance problems as America stemming from a multicultural society.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#Sweden](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#Sweden)

[2] [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/27/world/europe/swedens-
riots...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/27/world/europe/swedens-riots-put-
its-identity-in-question.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)

~~~
osivertsson
Why would a multi-cultural society cause governance problems?

------
scotty79
Extraditing people to US for computer crime is like extraditing to Iran for
insulting Allah.

~~~
mmphosis
Praise to the Mighty Dollah.

------
gst
Even though it seems that in this particular there is no extradition, it's
somewhat concerning that there are so many countries that would extradit their
citizens to a foreign country, although those citizens might have never
visited this country (Gary McKinnon is another example). My home country has a
policy to never extradit its own citizens and up until now I assumed that this
is the norm for most countries. ("never extradit" means that you can still go
to jail if you're doing something that's illegal in the foreign country and in
your home country. But in that case you are sentenced by a local judge and put
into a local jail.)

~~~
elnate
Which country?

~~~
joseflavio
In my country too, Brazil.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition)

"Own nationals: Some countries, such as Brazil,[6] the Czech Republic,[7]
France,[8][9] Germany,[10] Japan,[11] the People's Republic of China,[12] the
Republic of China (Taiwan)[13] forbid extradition of their own nationals.
These countries often have laws in place that give them jurisdiction over
crimes committed abroad by or against citizens. By virtue of such
jurisdiction, they prosecute and try citizens accused of crimes committed
abroad as if the crime had occurred within the country's borders (see e.g.
trial of Xiao Zhen)."

------
chmike
The problems will be solved through education and giving people a second
chance. I mean a real second chance. US Justice has turned into a self
promotion race through populism by exagerating charges and sentenses. Trials
and jailing has turned into a business. Education loans has led to restore
slavery.

US once considered the example of liberty, free speach and enterpreneurship is
now subject to the consequences of extremas in all fields. Thanks to lobbying
and subversion of regulating institutions.

Russia has crumbled under the weight of it's central administrative policy, US
starts to crumble under the pressure of people's greediness and disabling of
regulating structures as well as loss of sense of morale.

~~~
torkins
"Education loans has led to restore[sic] slavery" is one of the most
hyperbolic comments I have read on HN. I don't agree that giving students
credit secured by future income is equivalent to forcibly converting a free
human into the property of another.

~~~
speeder
I am someone with student debts.

For the past 4 years, I mostly worked on what I could, not what I really
wanted...

Happily, sometimes there was a overlap, but how it is not slavery?

I cannot quit. I cannot choose what I will work with (mostly, every time I was
without a job, I had to accept whatever offer came by, the few times I tried
to be picky I ended even more indebted to buy food). I cannot live where I
want... And so on.

With some employers, I did feel owned, because even if they did not knew I was
in deep debt, they could push me to do whatever they wanted, just with a small
treat of dismissal, because I CANNOT afford be dismissed, my debt payment is
way above the country average wage, and for the last years I've been living
reaching the end of each month slighly indebted or with a zero balance in the
bank.

I dread the day I suffer some accident, near my home people ignore the red
light a lot, and I think if I ever get hit by a car, I don't have money to pay
medical expenses. (my parents are also in debt, partly by their incredible
education expense they had with me, sometimes taking loans they knew they
could not pay just to pay for my schooling).

Right now I am co-founder in a startup, and every time our cash starts to run
low, conflicts flare up quickly, because the pressure becomes immense, it
generates lots of instability, and I already lost two relationships over this
(ie: not over having a startup, but having those debts and financial
instability and extreme dependance on employers).

~~~
joseflavio
I believe we are really heading for a de facto Wage slavery (mainly now that
you can't declare bankruptcy from students debts)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery)

~~~
speeder
I am from Brazil, there is no personal bankrupcty.

Also, your debts are inherited, mandatorily, specially if you have spouse,
kids, or parents (in the order. if you die, your spouse will get at least 50%
of your debts, if you don't have one, then your kids will be forced to take at
least 50% of your debts, if you don't have kids, then your parents... the
other 50% must be inherited by someone too, but you can choose with your will
who will be the unlucky person).

And because a side effect of inheritance laws, the government can (although I
never heard about it doing it) give your debts to a third cousin even.

Also, another thing is that here in Brazil student debts commonly have as
collateral the assets of a third party (in fact all sorts of debts here work
that way, except for companies), so if I DO fail to pay my debt, then it will
pass to my parents, that are already indebted and will certainly fail to pay
it, then their stuff will be taken (and I don't have anything to be taken, my
3 most valuable assets are my laptop, my phone, and my glasses).

EDIT to joseflavio: Your link is about law in Portugual, not Brazil, note the
currency mentioned is Euro, not Reais.

EDIT2 to joseflavio: I got curious enough, to see if there is anything
analogous in Brazil, and indeed there is, by another name "renuncia".

The law (I will skip the non-interesting part) about "renuncia":

Art. 1.807. O interessado em que o herdeiro declare se aceita, ou não, a
herança, poderá, vinte dias após aberta a sucessão, requerer ao juiz prazo
razoável, não maior de trinta dias, para, nele, se pronunciar o herdeiro, sob
pena de se haver a herança por aceita.

Art. 1.812. São irrevogáveis os atos de aceitação ou de renúncia da herança.

Art. 1.813. Quando o herdeiro prejudicar os seus credores, renunciando à
herança, poderão eles, com autorização do juiz, aceitá-la em nome do
renunciante.

§ 1o A habilitação dos credores se fará no prazo de trinta dias seguintes ao
conhecimento do fato.

§ 2o Pagas as dívidas do renunciante, prevalece a renúncia quanto ao
remanescente, que será devolvido aos demais herdeiros.

Thus in short: You have 20 days to renounce your inheritance.

If your are inheriting debts and renounce your inheritance, your creditors can
sue to force you still inherit the debt and pay them, and after the debt is
paid, the "good" parts of the inheritance get successfully renounced and go to
someone else, thus attempting to renounce a debt only results in punishment,
since you still get the debt, but DON'T get the good parts of the inheritance.

~~~
reginaldo
This analysis is wrong. One inherits the debts, but only up to the value of
the assets inherited. See Art. 1.792

Art. 1.792. O herdeiro não responde por encargos superiores às forças da
herança; incumbe-lhe, porém, a prova do excesso, salvo se houver inventário
que a escuse, demostrando o valor dos bens herdados.

Free translation:

Section 1792. The heir is not liable for charges greater than the forces of
inheritance: it must, however, provide evidence of excess, unless there is
inventory to excuse himself, demonstrating the value of inherited assets.

~~~
speeder
I did not saw that, thanks.

Although you must still prove yourself that the debt exceeds the assets, this
can get very problematic in some cases (like I guy I know that AFTER he died,
people found out that beside his official wife and his 2 previous divorced
wives, he also had 5 other "marriages", and the 7 women did not knew each
other, he had children with all of them, and each one thought he owned a
different business... this case is still in inventary hell, but last I heard
of it, they concluded each child will inherit 10 million BRL each plus
lands... but they don't started yet counting the debts... also, all of the
women were correct, he never lied about what he owned, only he never presented
anyone with the full truth, to each one he presented himself owning a
different business he really owned, I wonder how the guy pulled that off)

~~~
reginaldo
Wow... My father is a civil lawyer and deals with inventories regularly, but I
don't think he's ever gotten a case so contrived. And I fully agree that
having to prove the debt exceeds the assets is a major annoyance. Anything
that puts the brazilian justice system in your back (especially in this case
where the burden of proof is inverted), is a nightmare.

------
Smrchy
If only the US would not have such disproportionate blind eyes towards the
Wall Street bankers.

------
andmarios
This is one of the few times I am with the US point of view. Stealing thousand
of bank accounts isn't a small crime. If anyone here found his bank account
empty, would he be ok with a top of 5 years of jail time for the culprit? If
one person commited suicide, or lost his house, etc due to a theft caused by
these guys, is it ok?

He isn't a teenager who downloaded a song, he isn't a security researcher who
was just playing around, he isn't a whistleblower who wanted to protect our
privacy by informing us, they didn't ran a service to help oppressed people
reach out; they are bank robbers, top notch bank robbers if they compromised
so many accounts.

~~~
caf
Personally I have come around to the view that purely financial crimes should
merit only financial punishments, of a sufficient magnitude to deter the
crime.

I'd like to think that I would be rational enough to maintain that position
even if I was the victim of such a crime.

~~~
rayiner
That's ours poor people who have nothing to lose. What do you do when a guy
whose broke steals a million dollars?

~~~
ansgri
take it away and give her some prison time, in this case. The problem is, of
course, that in the prison she will be taught how to steal professionally, so
an ideal rehabilitative prison should prevent any contact between inmates.

------
reginaldjcooper
This is truly great. Maybe Latvia will be able to offer asylum to the next kid
charged for downloading with intent to share.

------
sandis
While this has indeed been the case so far, it's important to point out that
the final decision is scheduled to be made by the Cabinet of Ministers
tomorrow (Tuesday).

------
scotty79
Too bad that UK didn't have such good jugment as Latvia in case of Richard
O'Dwyer.

------
Fuxy
Anybody thinking this is the new slave labor or is it just me? Need more
workers? Introduce stricter laws.

Given the mess the American legal system is just about anybody can be
sentenced for something so the only question is how many slaves/criminals do
we need?

------
znowi
What a pleasant surprise. Tiny Latvia said _no_ to the mighty US. My
compliments.

------
tomaac
Today it was decided to extradite him to USA.

