
How Instacart (YC S12) Hacked YC - olivercameron
http://techcrunch.com/2012/08/18/how-instacart-hacked-yc/
======
ibdthor
Amusing, that this thread pops up the day after the "Why I hate HN"/"How to
Fix HN" discussion. The 50% of this thread about sexism is a bit off-topic,
and about another 25% is claiming the application process is broken or that
beer equates to a bribe. I feel like this would have been more valuable if
people had simply taken it as a lesson for success through tenacity. Here's
what I take away from this: delivering the beer made the YC partners realize
that Instacart was already up and running with a functional app, at which
point it became a quasi-Pascal's Wager - if Instacart busts, it busts, but it
looks like it could pay off big already, so why not bet on it? This is similar
to how we got into YC with Light Table. Our initial application for a
completely different idea didn't even get an interview, but when we applied
late with numbers from Kickstarter to back us, it was a different story. I
would wager that for a late application to be successful, the founders have to
show a certain above-average mettle, but must also have some demonstrative
additional value (like a functional app that can deliver a six pack in 30
minutes) that makes YC take the risk of a late acceptance.

------
HorizonXP
Having known Apoorva since our days in UW, everyone should know this is par
for the course for him. Many of us in our class were exceptional people, and
have gone on to do exceptional things.

Apoorva's different. He takes the tools and abilities he has, and just applies
them differently than anyone else. It's tough to put my finger on it. When he
first told me this story, I just laughed. I just thought, classic Apoorva.

Think what you may about Instacart, but this man is going places.

~~~
lusr
I don't know him, but reading this story it doesn't sound like he learned
anything. Sounds like this sort of behaviour _is_ him. I'm jealous - it took
me years just to get to the point where I _realised_ I'd been taking "no" as
an (unnecessary) absolute, never mind consciously changing that pattern of
behaviour.

------
d0m
I've talked with a lot of startups who got in YC in the past several years,
and none of them got a call or an interview without having connection inside
or using some kind of a hack.

Still, it's sadden me a little bit. You send the best possible application you
can create, you're refused. You contact the YC team, you're refused. You send
beer to one of them, oh you get the chance to have an interview.

If they liked the idea so much to admit Instacart so late with a single
founder, it's hard to believe they're doing a great job at screening the
applications.

IMO, every (no-spam) applications should at least have a 2 minutes skype call
with one of the YC members. I know it takes time but it's in _their_ interest.

~~~
tptacek
You think the difference between interview and no-interview with a seed fund
is "six pack of beer"? That doesn't sound naive to you?

My read was, the difference here was between the idea of a business being
discussed on the Internet, versus an instance of the actual real-world
execution of that idea.

~~~
davidw
Reciprocity isn't something to take that lightly, by all accounts. It's not
that a six pack of beer buys your way in; that's absurd, it's that when
someone has handed you something, you feel inclined to give something back.

Chapter 2 of this book covers it in some detail:

<http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002BD2UUC/?tag=dedasys-20>

(no offense, anti-referral link guys). I thought "Thinking Fast, Thinking
Slow" did as well, but a cursory search didn't turn anything up.

Of course, something that's sort of missing from the story is how this showed
Instacart in action: it sort of sounds like some guy driving up and handing
them some beer, which in and of itself doesn't demonstrate a lot.

~~~
timr
Read a little further in that chapter, and it's made abundantly clear that
_abuse_ of reciprocity is worse than doing nothing at all: the Hare Krishnas
almost never hand out flowers in the airport anymore, because everyone is on
to the game. Not only did airports start to box them in to special areas, but
people began to _hate_ them.

The same book goes into the importance of the _magnitude_ of the reciprocity
request: even the Krishnas, at the height of their success, couldn't ask
people for huge donations in exchange for a flower.

~~~
davidw
> magnitude of the reciprocity request

The beer did not get him into YC. It got him a few minutes on the phone and
subsequently a meeting, which then led to the rest because of the quality of
his startup/resume/tenacity. So to me, it sounds about right in terms of what
reciprocity got him: a foot in the door that he otherwise did not seem able to
get.

------
jonmc12
Is a liquor license required to deliver alcohol in CA? I don't see Instacart
on a quick scan of CA ABC - <http://www.abc.ca.gov/datport/LQSMenu.html>

If a license is required, and they did not have one when applying to yc, it
makes this story even more impressive!

~~~
baddox
Can I call my friend and have him bring me some beer? What if I pay him a bit
extra to cover the hassle? Now what if it's my personal assistant, or butler?

~~~
jasonlotito
And now, what if it's a stranger employed by someone else, and they deliver
the beer to under-aged individuals?

It's a real and valid concern, and dismissing it with silly questions about
friends like a weasel doesn't resolve the concern.

~~~
baddox
If a stranger (or anyone) physically hands alcohol to a minor, then a crime
has been committed. What is so complicated about that?

~~~
jasonlotito
I don't know. You were the one proposing questions regarding liquor laws.
Apparently it isn't as simple as you'd like to believe.

But no, ignore questions and remain ignorant of realities or laws.

Edit: I mean, seriously, you try and act like some smart guy proposing
"insightful questions" about how there is no difference between paying your
friend to bring you beer and paying a company to bring you beer, but it
doesn't work that way. Instead of coming off as smart, you come off looking
like a smart ass.

------
sedev
I remember PG's essay about "relentlessly resourceful": after reading this
dude's story, it's pretty much exactly that. It's still surprising that he got
in late - but not _as_ surprising. He demonstrated, in a visceral way, that he
had the trait that PG has described as a top success factor for YC companies.
Good for him!

------
bryanh
Its nice that these types of stories put a face on the fabled "determination"
trait that YC always say they select for [1].

Good timing on the story too, right before demo day... :-)

[1] <http://paulgraham.com/founders.html>

------
dkrich
That's a great example of the power of demonstration. Showing someone what
your product can do, as opposed to what it will do is about 10,000x more
powerful.

However, this sort of begs the question, if you already have a successful
product, why give up a significant amount of equity to an incubator? To help
sales?

~~~
patrickyeon
> However, this sort of begs the question, if you already have a successful
> product, why give up a significant amount of equity to an incubator?

I think the idea is usually that the extra cash on hand right now and/or the
networking and direct help you get from the incubator will help you grow your
product so much faster that it's worth giving up the equity. In this case
specifically, the capital could go to starting the same proven service in a
few other cities, instead of somebody else becoming "InstaCart for Atlanta".
Or maybe the most valuable part will be advice on _how_ to scale out to other
cities.

------
magnusgraviti
Reading this article I thought about two things:

1) This guy is a real entrepreneur. He made a deal. I am thrilled!
Congratulations! :) Reminds me of the book from Donald Trump about the deals.

2) Y Combinator partners are undoubtly clever people and they can't afford
themselves to apply each pitch or idea and you should look for a hack to stay
out of the overall group to be noticed and given a chance to win or fail.

------
baby
There is ONE thing I don't understand :

> No matter how large your order, we only charge $9.99 for 1 hour and $3.99
> for 3 hour deliveries.

How can you make it profitable if you only charge 10$ an hour (when you have
to pay for the driver, gas etc...)?

~~~
citricsquid
The time refers to the time from order to delivery, not the time the order
will take. If they streamline the system well enough and have a large number
of delivery drivers in each area they could have delivery take ~15 mins, 4
deliveries an hour is $40/driver. Not _great_ but more than enough to cover
costs and wages.

~~~
gav
I doubt in most major cities with traffic you could manage 4
deliveries/hour/truck unless your volume was big enough to have very close-by
drop offs. Factor in the time taken to unload from the truck and hand off to
the customer and it's even worse.

One thing I don't understand is who is doing the delivering. I doubt Instacart
is using their own trucks, and instead is piggy-backing off somebody else's
infrastructure.

~~~
citricsquid
They're delivering things like groceries, I _assume_ they're similar to exec
(<https://iamexec.com/>) but specific to delivery. It's just "some guy" hired
by Instacart to pick up groceries and then deliver them when they're told to,
no trucks needed, bicycles or cars would be fine.

------
brettvallis
Personally, I mostly got the feeling that he was just publically
congratulating himself - showing off.

I live in Cape Town, none of my alumni could put me in contact with any SV
VC's, even in 24 days. He reinforced the idea of 'it's who you know in the
v(V)alley'.

Due to the success of his application, the OP is applauded for his tenacity,
his unwillingness to give up. If he had failed though, he would've seemed a
little more like the annoying guy who just doesn't get the message. His post,
and process isn't particularly helpful to most others.

But I appreciate the insight given by YC, or those connected with the process.
My take-away (play intended) from the post and comments is: 1.) If you believe
in your product, and you feel it's commercially viable, build it before you
even start asking for money, and 2.) Use your product as the pitch. Yeah,
everyone demos their product during a sales call, but using it directly on the
client even before an introduction seems like a nice differentiator. Not very
easy in the Enterprise, or if your clients are anonymous, but a targeted start
might work - warrants further thought.

Anyway, good luck to the OP!

------
kevinwdavid
Don’t take no for an answer! YES is around the corner!.There are always back
doors to opportunities if you want them badly enough.The key is transforming
the 'no' from a flat refusal into an obstacle to be surmounted. If you can
deal with the obstacle,your request is more likely to be granted.Whenever
someone tells you 'no,' there's almost always a way to turn it into a
'yes.'Period!

------
joshu
trying really hard is a hack?

~~~
lindablus
The title of the story - specifically the liberal use of "hack" - irritated me
greatly, because it made the story sound bigger than what it is. Whoever wrote
the story please reserve the word "hack" for true breakthroughs in future.

------
ajju
For everyone who thinks the conclusion is "Send YC partners gifts", I
personally know a smart guy who sent YC gifts related to his startup before
the deadline (and therefore, before Apoorva), and still wasn't invited for an
interview.

You have to realize that YC isn't doing this for gifts, they are doing this
with the expectation that you have the potential to be breakout success like
Dropbox, AirBnB or even better. They are savvy investors, and unlikely to fall
for mere gimmicks.

~~~
46Bit
Seriously? Sending things is an interesting strategy if it's your business,
but bribes are counterproductive. Unless premature desperation is a trait YC
seek.

~~~
ajju
Did you misread my comment? I don' understand the "Seriously?" part of yours,
since we seem to largely agree.

~~~
46Bit
I wasn't having a go at you, rather wondering about who'd try such a strategy.

------
rweir
wow why hasn't anyone tried this business model yet!11

------
jere
tl;dr: Beer.

~~~
geoffschmidt
tl;dr determination, creativity, and a good product demo.

If you copy those things, you'll have a good chance of getting into YC.

If you copy "Send Garry Tan beer," you'll look like "the guy that didn't have
any original ideas, so he copied Apoorva" :)

~~~
jere
>tl;dr determination, creativity, and a good product demo.

Sure, but aren't those things that are normally _expected_ of applicants?
"Hack" implies a clever trick that routes you around the normal mechanisms.
And, quite seriously, the only hack I found was beer.

~~~
drumdance
He used his product to deliver the beer. How many times has that happened to
you?

------
vladd
> most importantly I learned that I’ll never take “No” for an answer again.

There are two types of challenges in life: the first ones are generic and
depend mainly on you, such as (1) double the revenue in the next 6 months, or
(2) double the team size. Even if one of your staff quits or the market dips,
as long as you're passionate about, have a plan that is doable and work hard
enough to get there, it can be done.

The other type of challenges are the ones about specific people or entities.
Impressing girl X strong enough to kiss you, making Y lend you money or
convincing Z to fund you. It's a wrong lesson to learn not to accept NO for an
answer in these kind of situations, mainly because it's not something
depending mainly on your ambition and productivity but rather on the
subjective freedom of a specific person to act with respect to you. By
refusing to take "No" for an answer in those cases you can easily end up being
depressed or a jerk in the long run.

~~~
isalmon
Does not work with girls. When they say "No" - that usually means "Yes, but
later" or "Yes, but you'll have to work on it". So I would not take "No" for
an answer here too ;)

~~~
chimi
You really should delete that comment. It's entirely inappropriate. When a
woman says no, she means no. End of story.

~~~
gw
What a comical overreaction. The history of cinema and literature is replete
with love story cliches just like that -- a boy being rejected by a girl and
eventually winning her over with perseverance and charm. Of course, the over-
correcting HN crowd instantly interprets such a comment as the words of a
misogynistic psychopath.

~~~
jlgreco
Ok, I have a bit of an issue that maybe other people here can give me guidance
on.

When I decided I wanted to get into this industry, I was a teenager in
highschool who figured it all seemed fun and exciting. Creating stuff for a
living was awesome, and I wanted to be apart of it.

Fast forward a highschool and college diploma, 10 years in the future. I have
gotten where I wanted to be, and it is pretty great. Only now though is
something else about this industry really starting to sink in for me: the
stereotypes. Not the nice _"those guys make a lot of money"_ stereotypes, but
rather the vicious kind. I am talking about stereotypes portrayed in media and
and embraced by society that suggest anyone who interacts with computers for a
living has bad hygiene, long hair, likes fantasy and sci-fi a little _too_
much, is rude or otherwise lacks social skills, etc. A lot of them don't even
make any sense; I still can't figure out if all programmers are supposed to be
drinking mountain dew all day, or beers. Even the stereotypes that are not
seemingly contradictory rarely apply to any particular programmer. I like to
think few if any apply to myself...

This is just how stereotypes work I guess, and I am learning to deal with it.
I can't say it is easy though, and I have altered my behaviour in many cases
to distance myself from it. When people at parties ask me, _"What do you do?"_
, I no longer actually answer the question. Instead of saying that I am a
computer programmer or that I work with computers, I say, _"Oh, I work for
[company name]"_. They still know what I really do (if they give it a little
thought at least) but the reactions I get are noticeably better.

This is all more or less inconsequential though. These are not great
hardships; these are "First World problems". What _is_ an issue though are
certain very particular stereotypes that our industry has acquired:
sexism/misogyny. I don't think it is really important how deserved or not
these labels are; but what I _do_ know is that these labels are social
kryptonite. They are the things that can end friendships and careers.

We hear about these issues in our industry a lot, particularly here on HN.
Usually the poster of the story makes it clear that they think these are
issues that the industry only has because a few men act this way. Everyone is
not guilty, except perhaps so far as they turn a blind eye to it. The apparent
idea behind raising awareness for this issue is to get people to speak up when
they see it. I understand that, and I understand why it is necessary. I don't
like having these labels anywhere near me, that they are applied to my
industry at all makes me uncomfortable, but I understand it is important.

So what then am I supposed to do when I see comments like the one by isalmon
above? I am pretty certain he meant nothing untold by it, I am sure his
intentions were all decent. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt
there. _Even so_ , I can absolutely see how a comment like that could be read
as being rather offensive and could help solidify the sexism/misogyny
complaints that have been levelled against our industry. It should not be hard
to imagine a blog post making it to the top of HNs about a comment exactly
like that being overheard at a tech conference. I don't want to burn isalmon
for something I am sure he did not mean to do, but I feel that I must do
_something_.

So what am I supposed to do?

~~~
wallflower
> When people at parties ask me, "What do you do?", I no longer actually
> answer the question. Instead of saying that I am a computer programmer or
> that I work with computers, I say, "Oh, I work for [company name]". They
> still know what I really do (if they give it a little thought at least) but
> the reactions I get are noticeably better.

"How are you?", "Nice weather", and "What do you do?" are typically throw away
interactions. Most people aren't expecting a conversation thread to fork at
that point. However, if you want to inject a little energy/entropy into the
conversation say something that reveals your own real interests

For example: "I am a programmer. Yeah, it's geeky but I like being able to
craft stuff for a living - I'm very luck to be able to build something that
other people can use - though sometimes it requires a sledgehammer to bang
stuff into shape. However, what I really like doing is drawing caricatures.
It's taken a while to get to the point where I can actually make it look like
the person...in less than a day. How about you, what do you enjoy doing?"

> So what am I supposed to do?

Like dinner parties in France, the best conferences/meetings are the ones that
have more than a minority of either sex represented.

If you really want to do something, you can't just write a blog post or a
comment. Organize some sort of hacker/meetup and actively reach out to the
minority population (this can involve women, urban youth, heck - even senior
citizens) - do it and then write about it. Or you can write about it to
challenge people (before doing it), as this person has (below).

> Which is where this conference thing gets interesting. Rather than throw up
> your hands and say it’s the nature of the business, you can embrace this
> challenge. You can read about what other people have done in this realm, and
> you can apply your considerable problem-solving skills to come up with new
> solutions that will benefit us all.

[http://www.dogsandshoes.com/2012/06/getting-women-and-
other-...](http://www.dogsandshoes.com/2012/06/getting-women-and-other-under-
represented-people-to-speak-at-your-conference-is-hard-so.html)

------
rprasad
TL;DR: YC's formal application process is broken. The new application process
is to send beer or other gifts directly to the YC partners.

~~~
paul
This case was exceptional because of how late he was to apply. 90% of yc
startups come in via the regular process, and nearly all of the companies that
send gifts are not accepted into yc.

But of course everyone is free to re-interpret the facts to fit their own
self-defeating narratives...

~~~
GuiA
>90% of yc startups come in via the regular process

I feel that it might then be safe to assume that
accepted/applied_through_regular_process <
accepted/applied_through_other_means ... the game then becomes being part of
that 10% :)

~~~
jhuckestein
In my experience this is very true for most application situations with a low
acceptance rate. If you're standing out by doing something vastly different,
you'll already get more consideration than most. I once got into a very
competitive neuro-science grad program by claiming in my application that I
won't be able to answer any technical interview questions because I'm from a
different field, but I could be useful in building an interdisciplinary team
and helping with modeling/simulations.

------
its_so_on
The problem I see with YC is that they want to take 7% of your company AND
only let in people who are doing things their way already.

I am extremely interested in listening to their way. That doesn't mean I'm
already doing it.

They should let every single applicant in who is willing to listen to them and
show them an existing, working product in a big market.

