

Ask HN: Should I go freelance? Right now? - maybeindie

I'm considering going the freelance/bootstrapping/contracting
route. Currently very close to resigning a cushy salaried job as
an Enterprise Java consultant. Would love your honest opinions on
whether I'm in good shape for striking out on my own.<p>I have two reasons for doing so: A) I want to be able to call my
own shots in how I spend my time. The commute is killing me, for
one thing. B) I also want to bootstrap my own products. Have
launched one web application a few years ago (didn't catch on,
but I learned a lot.) I have a long list of ideas I'm eager to execute on, but unable to do so while working fulltime at a BigCo (I'd like to, and I've tried once earlier, but it didn't work out and probably won't while I work a fulltime salaried job.)<p>I'm 33 yrs old. Ten years experience as a paid developer. Competent
Java/Ruby/JavaScript programmer. Frontend, backend and some
mobile experience. I've done some speaking in the local developer
community, got some open repos in GitHub in multiple languages
and have a couple of public webapps/websites in my portfolio. I'm
certainly no "rock star" though!<p>I have a decent network, but mainly composed of developers, not too many
product owners/stakeholders/gatekeepers.<p>I'm a family man, but we've gotten our living expenses down to
the point where we can live well if I pull in at average 3k each
month (take-home pay). Have saved up a nest egg which will carry us for 6 months
if I'm unable to get any contracting work at all. If I'm able to
get work charging around 100-150$/hr I'd only need to work around 16
full weeks a year or on average 2 days a week to get by. This is a very rough calculation and subject to differences in currencies and living expenses from the US, but I think you get the idea: I've done my homework.<p>Oh and I live in a Scandinavian country, near one of the
capitals (where most of the web/software work is going on).<p>So. How does my situation sound to you? I think this should work
but I need some outside validation. What are my chances?<p>Really, one of the biggest things holding me back is a small fear
that the current debt situation in the US turns into worldwide financial armageddon - would I be better off on my own or continuing work at a BigCo in that case?
======
alain94040
Very simple advice: don't leave until you landed one consulting gig.

If you have never been on the sales side of work, you may be shocked by how
much time it takes to convince someone to sign a contract with you. Yes, you
only need to work (code) two days a week, but on top of that, you need to find
and convince new customers.

Just make sure you have been through the motions once. The coding part is not
the issue here, it's landing clients.

~~~
Jd
Also, make sure sure your first gig is at least six months long and more than
20 hrs per week. The sales side of things is absolutely the worse part of
being a consultant. You really have to be _out there_ and not simply meeting
other developers but meeting the people who hire developers.

Also, your ability to execute well in a 9x5 setting does not at all mean you
can execute well independently, and anyone with experience working with
contractors will know this and will want to vet you. So it may be rocky at
first.

The worst thing is even with a good portfolio you have to be active active
active seeking work, and that is just a completely different mindset than
writing good code and one that, frankly, most developers would do better than
to develop. I've learned how to market myself, etc., but frequently think that
time would have been better spent elsewhere (e.g. learning new technology)

Also, you should know that the type of work you get may be quite different.
There can be a lot of in and out, here and there, travel, etc.

I'm a couple years in with a good portfolio and can hit mid to high hundreds
(USD) but it is such a pain in the ass I am actually looking for a "real job"
again.

Plug: hit me up if you are in the Bay Area and looking for someone with
experience with Javascript / Ruby / Java / Salesforce. I'm reasonably
proficient in all of the above, won a bunch of awards, and just bored with
what I happen to be doing currently.

------
scrrr
Coming directly from university I was earning about 45.000 Euro (+ Bonus) at a
top-5 consulting firm here in Germany.

After one year I started to get very bored. In my free time I picked up Ruby
and Rails and finally could not stand Enterprise Java and ABAP (SAP) any more
and quit my job. I didn't have any freelance gigs set up yet, but I knew that
I wanted to work with RoR.

Through a mailing list I landed a job at a Rails-startup and started to work
there for about 300 Euro per day. Freelance. They didn't care if I was a
normal employee or a freelancer, so I just said I want to freelance.

It was the best decision I have made in a long time.

First of all working for a startup you learn about 10 times as much as for a
big company. There's just more stuff that needs to be done. From tweaking the
database to writing front-end javascript. My colleagues were great tutors and
especially through several sessions of pair programming I picked up some good
skills that would otherwise have taken me a much longer time.

I also decided to work only 4 days per week, on average, which left me with
one extra day for my private projects. While the jury is still out if we will
succeed, it was a very comfortable situation, since I could work two days on
my own stuff (Fri + Sat) and have the Sunday off.

Today I work for 500 Euro a day for a larger company that decided to use Ruby.
They don't really care when I show up as long as the work gets done. I don't
get called to as many meetings as the regulars and I know in a few months it
will be over and I'll be working on something completely new.

Job situation: It's not "totally awesome" but by maintaining a network of
other freelancers I'm never out of work. If one guy is engaged and gets an
offer, he forwards it to the others, and vice versa. I'm not afraid I'll get
in a financial crisis any time soon, because I have very nice savings and
because I can always get a regular job for a big company, should I ever run
out of offers.

I think it's important to stay up to date on new things (say the new RoR
version or interesting ruby gems, nosql databases or caching methods), because
a part of my job is consulting and offering suggestions, but that is easily
done by reading blogs, watching some Railscast now and then and monitoring
sites like HN.

So my suggestion is: Go for it. If everything fails, you're still a software
engineer, a currently very sought after profession. (I assume it's the same in
Scandinavia.) Remember: A regular job isn't very safe either. If the economy
collapses you can still be laid off.

Todos: Find out about insurance and taxes. At least in Germany you're
basically leaving the social security safety-net when becoming self-employed.

And yes, a long commute really takes the joy out of life. Quick tip: Get a
kindle, use Instapaper to sync articles and read them on the train. ;)

~~~
jordinl
500€ sounds a lot, I'm based in UK and I've never heard of anyone getting paid
above £400 per day (in Rails). I've been thinking for a while on moving to
Germany, would you mind if I contact you?

~~~
scrrr
sure, go ahead. click my nick for contact-email.

------
babebridou
In France we benefit from a system called "Entreprenarial Vacation" - anyone
who spent 5 years in their company can ask to take a year off in order to
start their own business. The company can accept or refuse. After 12 months,
the employee can decide to leave the company for good (business works) or
return to his former functions and keep his job/salary (business doesn't work,
founder is not fit, crisis in the world- you name it).

I oversimplified it a bit of course, but basically you should check out if
there are any system like this one in your country. I personally took this
chance and I am freelance right now under these terms. I already had a
contract ready to execute when I started, which helped tons.

Just one thing: expect up to 3 months delays in payments and expect
administrative delays (at least three weeks, for me it was two months- don't
ask) from the moment you have a bank backing you up until you can issue your
first invoice: that's what it takes to incorporate a company. So worst case
scenario is even if you start with a gig right away, you might have to eat all
your saved up cash before seeing any money income.

Looking back at how it went for me, I would have rather started working on all
the administrative details before leaving my previous company. Then again I'm
talking about the French administration, I don't know the specifics in other
countries.

~~~
maybeindie
Administrative details aren't quite as bad here, and anyway I've already got a
company set up from my web app launch a few years back. Thanks for the input.
Haven't heard about anything comparable to "entrepreneurial vacation" but some
people do take extended, unpaid leaves of absence for various reasons. Maybe
I'll talk to my employer about that, would make it far less risky - though it
would also give me less of a fire under my ass :)

------
sleight42
My advice? Go for it. Let's break it down:

(1) Don't let fear rule your life (2) Given your ability to earn, your needs
are modest (3) From your post, you seem to have a reasonable perspective (4)
The added paperwork may be annoying

(1) Fear will tell you to stick with your "reliable" salaried position. I am
unfamiliar with Scandinavian employment laws; however, in the US, job security
simply doesn't exist.

What I tell folks: "Everyone is a freelancer -- some people realize it and
most don't". What I mean: you are responsible for your career and for
marketing your skills. You can't count on other people to do it for you.

 _You want to mitigate as many risks as possible to reduce fear_.

* You already have a nest egg.

* You know how much you need to earn each month

* Do you already have clients lined up? If possible, I'd recommend having more than one at a time. This can get complicated, trying to satisfy 2 or more clients' needs while leaving time for your own (bootstrapping, et al). However, if you tell each client up front that "I can allocate up to 15 hours/week for you" and they're on board with that then you only need 2 clients. This will help keep the income steady.

* Even with a nest egg, burning savings while sitting on the bench is not good for the stress level (see the latter part of my previous bullet).

(2) Are Scandinavian businesses able to find (enough) full time hires with
your skill set? If not, the market is ready for you. If so, you may need to be
a little more flexible.

(3) You don't come off as an arrogant jerk (quite the opposite). WIN! ;-)

(4) Be prepared to do more paperwork. You will be your own business. Find out
what this entails in your country. In the US, it means _more_ taxes, finding
and paying for my own health insurance, invoicing, and other tedium. _This can
take up 5-10 hours/week of your time at first_. It gets better over time.

About me: I've been freelancing for a couple of years in the US and have been
in the industry perhaps a little longer (just over 16 years). I tend to act as
a "consultant" in addition to a "contractor": beyond just slinging code, I
also providing "coaching" to individuals and teams. I've coached/mentored
several friends as they've transitioned from salaried work to becoming their
own business. Heck, maybe I should make a business out of that myself but I
enjoy helping people. Feel free to drop me a line.

------
mgkimsal
The whole US debt ceiling thing - no one will know what the effect is - so
much of the market stuff is driven by confidence/fear that there's no way to
predict reactions to something that's never happened before.

re: freelancing - if you've got a family situation, I'd suggest getting two
things in line before going freelance:

1\. Getting a bit more savings - 9-12 months would be better imo (but I'm a
bit conservative in that regard) 2\. Getting some work lined up ready to go,
or ideally that you can work on part time already, even if it's not quite your
target of $100/hr. Once you quite full-time, you'll already have some income
stream to build on.

I was in your shoes 4 years ago, and have had some ups and downs - an early
client didn't pay (~$9k) and I filed a lawsuit - 3 years on its still pending.
Be prepared to withstand 'feast/famine' cycles - that's where the > 6 months
savings helps out. We've got 18-24 months (depending on how we spend) saved up
in an emergency fund, and I'm now looking at expanding out - hiring someone,
for example.

Your country may have better social safety nets than the US, but make sure
your health stuff is taken care of, and you may want to investigate some
business insurance. Will your tax situation change if you become self-
employed? It does in the US - well, it doesn't, but the 'employer half' of
FICA is something that bites a lot of first-time self-employed.

If it were you on your own, I'd say "go for it" - the fact that you have a
family (just a spouse? children?) makes me a bit more cautious. You should
also have your spouse on board with you emotionally before you do this -
money/work fights can be a big problem if you're not both going in the same
direction.

Ultimately, I suspect you can always go back and get another job someplace,
although perhaps not as cushy as you have now.

Depending on how antsy you are, you could set a goal of 3 months from now
(only 12 weeks) to have another month of runway saved up, and 2-4 paying
client projects started or ready to start in October.

~~~
maybeindie
Thank you for the in-debth response.

My spouse is on board emotionally, we've talked thoroughly about it. Health
insurance stuff will be taken care of if I do quit and is baked into my
calculations (as is VAT, taxes, etc).

I start networking and pitching actively to my contacts for work/ the day
after I resign, which means I'd have three months left in my job to find
clients/contracts before I started working on my own - standard notice of
resignation in my country is three months.

~~~
justincormack
Don't forget that your first client could be your current employer, on
different terms, if the relationship is good now and continues to be.

~~~
maybeindie
That's a good point, and something I actually hadn't thought about. I have a
good relationship and reputation with the company so I'll look into it.
Thanks. :)

------
schme
This is slightly off-topic, but I have a feeling the answer will be a short
one. How would a straight out of university -student fare becoming a
freelancer? One would have little to no contacts or enterprise experience
(part from the degree and/or open source). I don't have a good understanding
of what a freelancer contractor/consultant does, but I've always liked the
word freelancer. This would be, as I assume, practically impossible?

~~~
shimon
You'd be challenged to demonstrate your ability to actually ship software. If
you don't have a network of people who have worked with you and can vouch for
you, you'll have trouble getting well-paying gigs. You'd likely end up
starting with hard, poorly-paying jobs and working your way up.

That is difficult but doable. However, the bigger thing you'll be missing is
the ability to work with programmers who are better than you. Freelancing is
usually a lonely pursuit and you'll tend toward work that you can estimate
accurately and execute efficiently. The need to focus on and master a domain
is good for your consulting business but bad for learning. So I'd recommend
against freelancing just out of university purely on that basis; you're
missing out on the exposure and learning you'd get working in bigger teams.

That said, you don't automatically learn from people just by working in the
same building as them, and you don't necessarily have to be a lone wolf when
consulting. Whatever you choose, keep learning.

------
LiveTheDream
I think it makes sense to take a wait-and-see approach to the worldwide
financial armageddon happens. However, 6 months of savings with a family seems
just like the bare minimum. It doesn't give you a full 6 months of time to try
the freelance thing; if you were to go 4 months with no income, you will by
necessity start looking for traditional employment again.

You could try to leave BigCo on amicable terms, such that they would hire you
back if the freelance thing doesn't work out.

Finally, before you strike out, have the first client lined up. You should be
able to manage it such that your start date for the new client more or less
coincides with your end date at BigCo. You don't want to spend the first days
of freelancing life looking for work.

Good luck!

------
base
I was in your position 2 years ago but without a family to support. With a
family I would be cautious, have a run away of 12 months salary or have some
working contracts ready to start before leaving the work.

Also, expecting a constant flow of 100-150$ freelance work can be difficult,
and although you might think that you just need to work 2 days a week, when
you have a company you have lots of other stuff to deal that take lots of time
like meetings, emails, social security, taxes, accountability, project budgets
etc.

~~~
davidamcclain
I agree that some sort of cushion/runway is very important. But why do you
suggest 12 months? Is the idea that you can spend 6-8 months making no money
chasing around contracts and then you've got 6-4 months to find a job?

~~~
base
Although you might start making money soon it can take more than one year to
be able to consistently go above the $3k per month. Also, in the beginning you
might need to put some money in the business like buying new computers, new
cellphone, costs of creating a company... Last but not least you should have
an emergency fund for unexpected events and to able to find a job again if in
need.

Of course this is not science, but I think most entrepreneurs (including me)
are overoptimistic about the time it takes to reach certain goals.

------
meric
You might as well. There's going to be a job thread on the 1st every month
(tomorrow). Post on it and see what you get.

You won't have to quit your job now if you can find a small task to complete.

(looks like this <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2503204>)

------
rdouble
I'm not sure what it's like in Scandinavia, but $150/hr would be an
exceptional rate in the US for someone with the skills you describe. Most
contract programmers with that resume are more like better paid temp workers
who make $25-60/hr.

~~~
babebridou
I don't know about Scandinavia, but the typical beginner consulting gig in
Paris, France is 40-50€/h. More experienced are at 60-80€/hr, vets are ~100€/h
and super experts are at 125€/hr & more. Do the maths. That's before taxes of
course. Then realize out that EUR->USD history: from 1:1 to 1:1.5 in ten
years, and meanwhile wages in Euros have been kept relatively constant.

You can't survive in Europe if you get paid in USD, these days.

~~~
jordinl
that sounds like a lot! What technology are we talking about? Also, do this
roles require being able to speak french?

~~~
babebridou
Nah if you speak any European language you can land that kind of gig, just
elsewhere in (Western)Europe. That won't pay the bills, though. In order to do
these jobs you need to be near one of the bigger cities, where the cost of
life is excruciatingly high, 2.5$ for an espresso, 10$ for a pint, 1250$ for a
month in a 30m2 flat. Add to that between an hour and two of commute time
every day...

About the tech, for that kind of money it's mostly Java, PHP and C++, with a
bit of perl, Oracle PL/SQL. We're old fashioned :) but for the past few years
C#, .NET, and javascript are making a splendid coming out, and there's always
demand for ObjectiveC (iOS mostly).

Now don't take my words for truth about the tech on the market, I'm super
biased by the company I've worked in and their customers. But in any case it's
nothing compared to what you earn if you're good enough with Excel, Powerpoint
and _absolutely nothing else_. The more tech you know, the less you bill is
the rule of thumb at least in the French consulting business.

------
gte910h
I'd wait until after the debt thing, but it's not bad if you have enough
savings.

~~~
bahman2000
the _after the debt thing_ might take a VERY long time though

~~~
gte910h
The immediate aug 2nd thing. Our interest payments now aren't very high at all
(Due to low interest rates), the 90's had worse ones.

------
feydr
quit quit quit

like alain mentioned -- get 1 consulting gig first but it will do wonders for
your self-esteem once you do

you'll also find that being a contractor is actually MORE safe than working
for some random BigCo that can fire you at will

to anyone else reading -- note that he has 6 months of savings -- I'd say
depending on your age and responsibilities you want at a bare minimum of 3
months -- I def. don't like having anything less than one year but each to his
own

