
Brexit Party Dominates as Tories and Labour Suffer - teh_klev
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48417228
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dennistaylor88
The E.U. would have worked better, if it stayed a free trade union. The
pursuit of turning it into a super state evolved the EU into a bureaucratic
mess.

~~~
dane-pgp
The U.S. would have worked better, it if stayed a confederacy. The pursuit of
turning it into a super state evolved the US into a bureaucratic mess.

~~~
mc32
We’ve had over 200 years to work things out —slowly. It was pretty much a
diaspora of the same mindset throughout with a common language and body of
law.

Two hundred or a hundred years ago people put up with a lot. A modern world
doesn’t want to wait for things to work themselves out.

~~~
rayiner
Two hundred years ago, the federal government was tiny and most decisions were
made locally. That changed dramatically in the last two generations.

~~~
tptacek
A "generation" in scientific terms is roughly 25 years, right? In 1969, you
couldn't drive a truck full of oranges between cities in two different states
without permission from a federal agency, if I understand the history here
correctly.

~~~
rayiner
There was two big spikes: three generations ago, FDR and WWII caused the
federal government to grow from 5% of GDP to 25% of GDP, and dominate economic
regulation, and then two generations ago the Warren Court caused the federal
government to dominate social regulation. After FDR, but before Warren, you
couldn’t drive oranges between states without federal permission, but you
could have prayer in local schools conforming to local values. The latter was
arguably a bigger destabilizing force than the former.

~~~
tptacek
So it seems to me we sorted that out almost exactly the right way. Parents are
responsible for inculcating religious values into their kids, not school
administrators, and we don't pay $5 for an orange†.

Either way: it can't be the case that things were more decentralized and local
2 generations ago and more centralized now, because, well, no, they aren't.

† _I don 't like oranges and haven't bought one in years so if it turns out we
do pay $5 for an orange pretend I said $50, which I'm pretty sure we don't
pay._

~~~
rayiner
Parents have always relied on the community to help inculcate religious
values, just as they do with other kinds of values. Talking religion out of
schools, where kids spend most of their waking time, and the public sphere
generally, cut the legs out from under a key institution that was integral to
the fabric of American society. And in the process it created enormous
resentment to the folks who had orchestrated that destruction.

Even when you come to the “right” conclusion, imposing rules on people
contrary to their values comes at a high price. In Bangladesh, the liberal
elite tried to impose ideas like secular government. The common people pushed
back, backing a military dictator that made Islam the official religion. 50
years later, the struggle between the two sides continues. You can’t beat
people into believing the right things. There is nothing fundamentally
different about Americans. You can impose the right answer on issues ranging
from abortion to obscenity (and for the most part, I believe we have), but
people will resent you for overriding their community’s choices. The cost of
correcting injustice is straining the fabric that binds you together.

(How much does a banana even cost? $5?)

~~~
dane-pgp
> The cost of correcting injustice is straining the fabric that binds you
> together.

Yes, but bear in mind, the cost of maintaining injustice is also the straining
of the fabric that binds you together.

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jim-jim-jim
Don't EU elections usually favor more obscure parties? There were some BNP
MEPs not too far back, no?

~~~
teh_klev
Only because a proportional representation system is used.

Back in 2009 Nick Griffin and Andrew Brons were elected as MEP's for one term.
After that the BNP's vote dwindled and they lost their seats.

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dane-pgp
Way to bury the lede, BBC. Another way to look at these results is:

Remain parties: 40.4% | Hard Brexit parties: 34.9% | Conservatives/Labour:
23.2%

as per:

[https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1132805516189683712](https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1132805516189683712)

It's a pity that despite the European elections being the closest the UK comes
to using a nationwide proportional voting system, some of the media tries to
present the outcome in terms of which party won the biggest minority, and how
the two main parties fared.

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teh_klev
Well, thankfully except for viewers in Scotland :)

