
Fiat Chrysler Is Being Sued Over a Software Flaw - ax00x
https://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/computing/software/court-allows-lawsuit-to-proceed-against-fiat-chrysler-over-software-flaw
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gonyea
I have this car and it’s done this 4 times so far. Really scary.

You’ll be driving and all of a sudden the engine stops, and the dash says to
place the car into park to turn it on. Imagine making a turn and your engine
dying mid-way; that’s exactly what happened to us. People die getting t-boned
that way.

Buying a Chrysler was a huge mistake; no one will acknowledge the problem.
There are Pacifica forums with over 100 pages of posts from people talking
about this issue.

~~~
Declanomous
> Buying a Chrysler was a huge mistake

One of my good friends is an automotive engineer. He's told me never to buy a
Chrysler product, no matter what. That includes Jeep, Fiat, Dodge, Ram, etc.
It's pretty bad when the people who design your cars literally think you are
the worst car on the market.

I tell people this when they are looking for cars, and they always tell me
"Well I asked the salesman about [whatever issue they heard Chryslers have],
and he said they got rid of those issues." Without fail, a few years later
there are a whole bunch of problems with whatever Chrysler.

I really don't understand how your cost accounting can be so terrible that
literally everything you design has a horrible flaw. I guess they stay in
business because people always want Jeeps and cheap cars that have 'luxury'
interiors.

~~~
gonyea
My expectation was that the car would start to have issues gradually. Eg, you
can generally hear when an engine starts to misbehave. I got the Pacifica b/c
it was a quiet, comfortable ride and accepted the higher cost of ownership.
Now I wonder if their airbags will actually deploy in a crash.

Cars are now becoming a pile of soft-buttons, and I don’t see how that makes
he experience better. There’s no physical lever to stop your car in an
emergency in most new cars. Just a [P] toggle. Even the Chrysler has a really
dumb knob for changing gears on the transmission (which people often confuse
with a volume knob).

I may just buy a Chevy Tahoe next; it’s a much simpler car with sufficient
luxury & tech.

~~~
Someone1234
> I may just buy a Chevy Tahoe next; it’s a much simpler car with sufficient
> luxury & tech.

Or just buy non-American brands: Honda, Toyota, Subaru, and others. There's
lots of highly reliable car makers, Chrysler and Chevy aren't it.

~~~
Declanomous
Not to say Chevy's are reliable, but they are definitely better than Chrysler.

I don't understand brand loyalty with cars though. I can understand wanting to
buy an American car, but even then it might make more sense to buy a foreign
car depending on how you define what an 'American car' is.

~~~
DrScump
A lot of "foreign" car makers build many models in the USA.

Lots of Fords and Dodges and Nissans are made in Mexico.

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AdmiralAsshat
I feel like the headline is trying to frame the lawsuit as frivolous, as if
software flaws are inherently unworthy of lawsuits. But a critical safety
issue is a safety issue, regardless of whether it's a mechanical failure or a
software failure. Several people died due to a software flaw in Toyota's anti-
lock brake software.[0]

[0][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle_recalls#Anti-
lock_brake_software_recall)

~~~
Someone1234
Indeed, and while I don't think anyone died as a result of this flaw, it was
only a matter of time if not repaired and recalled.

The complaints/incidents are pretty terrifying: freeway speeds, stall, and
complete power loss (e.g. power steering, hazard warning lights, brake assist,
etc all gone) and you couldn't even restart until you put the vehicle into
park/0 MpH.

The "lucky" people only had it stall out at traffic lights, the unlikely
people had to go in the fast lane on the freeway.

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freehunter
>Fiat Chrysler had issued two technical service bulletins relating to
Pacifica’s PCM software before the plaintiffs had purchased their vehicle

Aren't TSB's public knowledge? (Answer: yes [1]). So if FCA issued a TSB for
this before the customer purchased the van, how much responsibility do they
have to tell the customer every known issue with the product before they sign
the papers? And how much responsibility falls on the customer to research any
known issues?

I'm responsible at work for talking about our software before customers make
the purchase... should I be worried that now I have to have a slide in my deck
that talks about every known defect in the product, even though our bug
tracker is publicly visible?

[1] [https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues](https://www-
odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues)

~~~
Someone1234
I think you misread/misunderstood the article, the judge used the TSB's to
decide AGAINST Fiat-Crysler's argument. FSA was arguing that they had no
knowledge of the defect, and that the complainant couldn't show otherwise, but
TSB's sent to dealerships prove they did know. That's why the case could
proceed.

> However, he pointed out that Fiat Chrysler had issued two technical service
> bulletins relating to Pacifica’s PCM software before the plaintiffs had
> purchased their vehicle, and two more following their purchase.

Plus you're also mistaken on TSBs. Technical service bulletins are normally
sent to dealerships and other authorized repair centers, they aren't for
public consumption (although most leak, if you look on forums, etc). NHTSA
notices and TSBs aren't the same thing at all.

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badwolf
Could you just imagine all the headlines and HN outrage if you replaced "Fiat
Chrysler" with "Tesla"

That aside

>Dealers, it said, will install a new software flash update to Pacifica
powertrain control modules for free.

This seems like something an OTA update could have resolved.

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lttlrck
It’s also something that an OTA update could cause. And the existence of OTA
updates could actually make it more likely if the initial quality is not held
to account because ‘it can be patched later’

