
Google Is Turning Off the Works-with-Nest API - cek
https://nest.com/whats-happening/
======
gergles
> I’m a Works with Nest developer. Will I be able to access and control Nest
> devices moving forward?

> No. The Actions on Google Smart Home platform does not provide open API
> access to Nest devices, so it cannot be used to access and control Nest
> devices. Instead, managing and controlling Google Home, Nest, and thousands
> of third-party smart home devices is done through the Google Home app and
> the Google Assistant.

Wow, just wow. The entire non-Google Nest ecosystem evaporates overnight.

~~~
dotBen
Yup, they just did a Twitter.

I lived through the Twitter ecosystem collapse and now I'm a VC I worry about
investing in startups that are built on any large ecosystem where there isn't
an alignment of clear economic interest.

Google of all people doing this just made it tougher for everyone else to
maintain confidence in large vendor platforms.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Here's a note, straight from quotes file, I took around the original Twitter
fiasco, and have since reposted or mentioned on HN a few times on occasions
similar to this:

* Sovereign from Mass Effect on using someone else's technology:

"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our
technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire. We
impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it,
and you will end because we demand it." Strangely, it seems to describe recent
(2012/2013) situation with API of Twitter perfectly.

\--

Twitter did that _twice_ [0] already, but it's a lesson people have to learn
and relearn repeatedly: this is what happens when you build a business
entirely around someone else's platform.

\--

[0] -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10427530](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10427530)

~~~
zimablue
[Spoiler alert, Hyperion series] That sounds totally lifted from the Hyperion
series, but maybe the idea is earlier than that, does anyone have a proposed
source for that idea that's earlier than 1989?

~~~
djsumdog
The writers were big Sci-Fi fans. The Asari were heavily influenced by the
Minbari of Babylon 5. There are lots of other callouts to classic Sci-Fi in
the series.

~~~
j03m1
That ending tho. Unforgivable.

~~~
XaoDaoCaoCao
I will always be mad about the ME3 ending. If reincarnation is something that
happens, my reincarnated self will be mad about the ME3 ending from birth.

What a godamn waste.

~~~
CaptainMarvel
As someone who never played the games but has a rough idea of story and
characters, what was wrong with the ending(s)?

~~~
ZeikJT
The endings didn't take into account any of the choices you'd made up until
that point. The endings were also a bit brief before the ending patch. I think
those were people's biggest complaints, I could be misremembering.

Highly recommend the trilogy! Great story, amazing characters, pretty great
gameplay (especially after #1), and overall an immersive journey. I wasn't
bothered at all by the ending, personally.

------
palebluedot
This seems to include all of us using them in open-source "hobbyist"
environments, like Home Assistant and Node-Red. I'm quite frustrated by this;
I'll never buy another Nest product again, and I now regret my purchase of the
Nest Thermostat.

All the rest of my IoT stuff is either open-source hardware/software, or at
the least local-only with known protocol interfaces. This was the one
exception I made for IoT "cloud", giving Google the benefit of the doubt. I
regret deeply giving them that benefit now.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
The month Google originally bought Nest, I sold my thermostat to someone else
and picked up an Insteon thermostat instead. My Insteon thermostat's been a
reliable partner since, and doesn't send my data to anyone. I actually turned
a profit on it, since I got rebate credit from my electric company originally
for buying it.

~~~
dehrmann
My gripe is the design is nowhere near as good. It's like going from an iPhone
to a feature phone.

I wish there were an open-source Nest firmware, or at least an open-source
backend. Google doesn't need to know when I'm home.

~~~
telltruth
Nest is actually _far_ from great thermostate, definitely not "iPhone" of
thermostate. It doesn't allow lots of manual settings and it doesn't handle
anything more than simple systems well. There is lot of marketing that is
blinding but not much substance. You should check out thermostats like Ecobee
instead.

~~~
cptskippy
Specifics? It does everything a basic programmable thermostat does in a
simpler interface.

------
bryanrasmussen
EU law (because the EU seems to be the only one willing to make these big laws
inconveniencing tech) - any IOT enabled product that has the IOT capabilities
removed by closing of a service without a simple way for those capabilities to
be re-enabled (simple being further clarified in law) can be returned for a
full purchase refund up to 3 months after closing of the service.

~~~
tpxl
IIRC there is a law where you can return items for a full refund or exchange
if the product was "not fit for purpose", which includes shenanigans like
these.

~~~
bpfrh
There is a law you can return anything brought online without giving any
reason for 14 days, I don't think there is a law which applies here?

~~~
NeedMoreTea
At least in the UK there are the concepts of "fit for purpose" (and of
merchantable quality) and "reasonable expected life". Now I doubt there's yet
been much chance to evolve what a reasonable life of a smart thermostat or
associated devices are, but crucially liability is with the retailer. It's on
them to prove they are not liable. If they then want to chase the
manufacturer, that's separate. It probably pays not to buy direct from
manufacturer.

A retailer can be busy ducking all their legal obligations and telling you
that you're long past the window of refund, but mention the provisions of the
Sale of Goods Act and you usually get a very different response, or a manager
is called over (to authorise the inevitable refund). The Sale of Goods Act is
still law (Well, parts of it), and the newer EU Consumer Rights Act is in
force as well. Good job too, the Sale of Goods Act is stronger in several
areas, whilst the EU gave us 2 year warranty.

There is case law where things have been judged to be within reasonable
expected life, and a repair, refund or compensation ordered long after the
mandatory warranty ran out.

------
URSpider94
For those who see this as Google turning off an unused service: no, just no.
This is Google cutting off a massive interop ecosystem to try to parlay the
success of Nest into higher adoption of Google Home. That’s vastly different
than shutting down G+, Wave, Orkut, Reader, etc.

It would be as if they announced tomorrow that the only way to read GMail is
in Chrome browser or on an Android phone.

~~~
masklinn
> For those who see this as Google turning off an unused service: no, just no.
> This is Google cutting off a massive interop ecosystem to try to parlay the
> success of Nest into higher adoption of Google Home. That’s vastly different
> than shutting down G+, Wave, Orkut, Reader, etc.

It's exactly the same as previous shutdowns, it's just that you didn't
personally care about previous shutdowns and couldn't be arsed to emphasise or
learn the lesson that google can not be trusted to keep services alive.

The sharp folks are those like ocdtrekkie upthread who shed their nest
immediately upon learning of the acquisition.

~~~
Angostura
Since you claim its exactly the same as previous shutdowns listed; when Google
shut down Wave, which paid for Google product were they aiming to increase
adoption of?

~~~
dopamean
my memory of wave is that it barely even launched. wasn't it around less than
a year? did anyone actually use it?

~~~
otakucode
My group of friends tried to. It could have been quite successful, since it
basically offered what Discord is now.

~~~
rtkwe
How? I guess you could use it like a chat room just putting new messages at
the bottom of the document but seems like a crazy kludge to use Wave as a
chat.

~~~
otakucode
I thought that was its intended primary purpose. We could chat and inline
media, pictures, etc. It was a big upgrade from IRC. There were issues with
sharing files larger than just images and whatnot, but it easily could have
been polished a bit into something better. If Discord added the ability to
have 'threads', it would basically be what we used Wave for. For a few weeks
anyway until Google decided it wasn't catching on enough or whatever
justification they gave for giving up on it.

~~~
rtkwe
I don't think I ever heard of it being pitched that way just as a
collaborative editing room for editing an actual document not just for using
the comments etc as a chat.

------
mc32
I used to be a fan of Google. They were the good ones, the open ones. Ha! I’ve
feel like they played the long sucker game. How times have changed. Even
Android feels like a ruse. And Chrome. And maps.

The last thing will be search. At some point it’ll be curated for my own good.

To be fair, Everyone has to make a living, but be honest don’t take people for
suckers of make them into suckers.

~~~
mcv
I agree. I used to be a fan. They were explicitly not evil, gave lots of open
source stuff away for free, made lots of other free services.

Turns out they were just making us dependent on them, and now that they've got
us, they do whatever they want. We need to make ourselves less dependent on
Google. Move away from GMail, use Firefox, DuckDuckGo, OSM, federated social
networks, etc. I don't have a good replacement for Android yet, as iOS is just
another walled garden. Similarly, Facebook is no replacement for Google+. We
need stuff to be opener, not dependent on another company. For email, you need
to own your own domain, so you can easily move from one provider to another.

~~~
tiredyam
god I tried. DuckDuckGo just does not work as well as it needs to. It gets
touted as a turn key google search replacement but it’s simply not. 4 times
today, I searched 5+ different ways for something after poor results, each
thing took one search to find on google. Granted, maybe I am just more
familiar with how to get the most out of googles search, maybe it has such a
vast profile on me that it understands what I want i am looking for. Either
way, i am pretty close to caving and it’s sad

~~~
m0nty
You can use the !SP operator before your DDG search to invoke StartPage, which
uses Google results. I mean, it's the same thing, just it doesn't look like
you're using Google search ;)

~~~
npongratz
Even better, with same results: use !s as a token anywhere in your search
string :)

------
leshokunin
What's the point of creating an ecosystem if you won't support it? Typical
Google. I understand shutting down or refocusing services that don't work. But
decisions like this or to shut down Inbox make no sense to me. It feels like
complete disregard of the user base.

~~~
specialp
Google has done this again and again with their APIs and services other than
their main search and advertising business. For me as a developer Google has a
bad name now and I'd never invest my time developing something in their
ecosystem or worse have my business depend on it. They do not care about their
user base as is shown even when they shut down paid services. Which is why
even with all their promises about Google Cloud I still don't trust it. When
one says that about Google Cloud you get this immune response that it is
different, but it is prefixed with Google which is a bad name when it comes to
keeping third party services or APIs up paid or unpaid.

~~~
PascLeRasc
I've been a Google apologist for most of my HN career, but shutting down Inbox
really changed my view. Regular old GMail sucks compared to Inbox, especially
the mobile app. I miss the Inbox app and its layout and recognition of
important emails so much that I don't feel like I can get attached to anything
else they make.

~~~
Aeolun
I’d long been thinking about it, but this shutdown is what triggered me
completely moving away from Google.

------
HillRat
So now all Nest accounts have to go through Google. Can’t wait for the first
time some Android developer gets their Google account locked and suddenly
can’t change the temperature on their HVAC unit.

~~~
dawnerd
Or that people using Gsuite wont be able to perform certain actions because
... reasons? My Google home hub is still pretty useless since they don't allow
some features.

------
richev
So my Nest app[1] that has 1800+ registered users will stop working in August.
:'(

[1] [https://richev.me/nest](https://richev.me/nest)

~~~
pugworthy
Look not to be blunt, but 1800 users? Why should they care?

I'm being a devils advocate, but ... if you were at Google and a person making
large business decisions, why would you care about 1800 users?

~~~
sdinsn
Because having an open API fosters a community of applications that is free
marketing and free development for your product.

Nest products are expensive, those 1800 users may equate to a few hundred
thousand in revenue for Google, who may instead buy a competitor for their
next purchase.

------
bhhaskin
Wait, so people that bought other devices that "Works with Nest" will no
longer work with Nest?

~~~
floatingatoll
Correct:

[https://nest.com/whats-happening/#im-a-works-with-nest-
devel...](https://nest.com/whats-happening/#im-a-works-with-nest-developer-
will-my-solution-still-be-able-to-access-and-control-nest-devices)

~~~
bhhaskin
Another reminder to never buy a "smart" device. At the end of the day they are
pretty dumb.

~~~
gordon_freeman
I have Wemo smart plugs that I have plugged in all sorts of stuff like Heater,
Lamps, and TV, etc connected to my Google Home and Home Mini. And I'd advise
anyone to think twice before buying smart plugs or smart devices. There are so
many bugs creating so many complications that I feel they are not worth using.
You'd need to reconnect them with WEMO app time and again, restart these
frequently if they just stop working and even you would not know what to do
with them when a failed firmware upgrade will make your smart plug useless!

~~~
josteink
> And I'd advise anyone to think twice before buying smart plugs or smart
> devices.

Not all smart devices are created alike. Research your purchases.

So far the one I’ve been most happy with is IKEA Trådfri.

It costs roughly half of the comparable Phillips hue offering, but still
delivers on any aspect I care about.

Works 100% locally, uses standard Zigbee (non-WiFi) networking. No cloud
required.

Supports HomeKit, Alexa, google assistant, not to mention Home Assistant.

More importantly, it supports other vendor’s Zigbee devices (like Hue) and
supports working with other Zigbee controllers than IKEA’s own.

Also certified non-shit by kernel-hacker Matthew Garret[1].

Nobody can shut me out of this purchase. This _is_ actually my hardware.

[1]
[https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/47803.html](https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/47803.html)

~~~
vincnetas
I have also voted with my money for IKEA Trådfri and am quite happy with it.
Light bulbs, motion sensors, remote controls. Everything connected to zigbee
coordinator and controlled with simple node red flows. And good thing is that
list of supported devices is longer than any other single vendor with option
to expand it by your self.

Baby starts moving in bedroom, light bulb flashes in kitchen.

Sonos stopped supporting remote control, no problem, map IKEA remote
controller to start/stop Sonos playback.

[https://nodered.org](https://nodered.org)

[https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io](https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io)

[https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/information/supported_devices.htm...](https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/information/supported_devices.html)

[https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/lighting/smart-
lighting/](https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/lighting/smart-lighting/)

------
w0mbat
Very confusing headline should be:

Google Is Turning Off the "Works with Nest" API

~~~
marquis-chacha
It's a "garden path sentence", but not in the fun way.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden-
path_sentence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden-path_sentence)

------
electrograv
I see Google API/ecosystem fans often defending or dismissing Google’s pattern
of behavior here, using arguments like this:

 _“Well, sure, they shut down that API I don’t use — big deal; all things come
to an end eventually! But, they’d NEVER do that to this API I rely on — that
would be so horrible, Google just would not do it!”_

I hope we all can acknowledge that this argument is on perpetually eroding
ground, at the very least.

~~~
DivisionSol
I've been considering pasting this:
[https://killedbygoogle.com/](https://killedbygoogle.com/) every time the
argument comes up. Maybe Google proponents will make one for other companies
notorious for killing services, but at least for now, the Google Graveyard
grows.

~~~
cortesoft
I don't quite get what people expect... do they think that once google creates
something, they are obligated to continue it indefinitely? That seems like an
unreasonable expectation.

~~~
mikeash
We expect web services to go away eventually. We expect physical products to
keep working until they physically break. The problem is when companies sell
physical products with a web service as a fundamental part of the product.
Companies want to treat the web service like any other web service, while
their customers reasonably expect their physical product to act like any other
physical product.

Edit: I want to add that this is a really easy problem to solve. Support or
create an open standard for the communication between the device and the
server. Allow the device to be reconfigured to communicate with other servers.
Then you can shut down your service and owners can keep on going. Better yet,
make it so that our device can communicate on the LAN without needing a server
at all. These problems exist not because they’re some inevitable fact of life,
but because these companies see more value in not fixing them.

~~~
Joky
Are the physical devices not working after this change, or rather some of the
applications developed for these devices need to switch to another API?

~~~
toomuchtodo
There is no other API to switch to, as Google controls the protocol, no open
standard exists to replicate the Nest API server, and Nest devices don’t
support targeting a self hosted API.

If you as a user or third party provider integrated with this API and rely on
it for functionality, you have no alternative nor recourse.

~~~
Joky
Isn't "Works with Google Assistant" supposed to become the replacement API? It
seems like they don't offer direct access to the data or the device but plan
to allow "some" level of control? (I don't know the space, apologize if my
questions are naive...)

> As a Works with Nest developer and partner, you will not be able to access
> or control Nest devices once the Works with Nest APIs are turned off on
> August 31, 2019. Moving forward, our team will focus on making Works with
> Google Assistant the most helpful and intelligent ecosystem for the home,
> enabling all of the products in your users’ homes to work together. We
> encourage all smart home developers to visit the Actions on Google Smart
> Home developer site to learn how to integrate your devices or services with
> the Google Assistant.

------
jasonhansel
Honestly, I think that IoT manufacturers should be required to provide open
APIs. Preventing third-party developers from interfacing with smart devices,
especially after they've already been sold to consumers, seems dangerously
monopolistic.

~~~
jasonhansel
To be clear: I want a _legal_ requirement. Like any industry that has vastly
expanded in power and societal influence, the tech industry may ultimately
need to be regulated for the greater good.

------
krosaen
> One developer platform. We want to unify our efforts around third-party
> connected home devices under a single developer platform – a one-stop shop
> for both our developers and our customers to build a more helpful home. To
> accomplish this, we’ll be winding down Works with Nest on August 31, 2019,
> and delivering a single unified experience through the Works with Google
> Assistant program.

> One set of privacy commitments. As Nest redefines technology in the home,
> there’s an opportunity to explain clearly and simply how our connected home
> devices and services work, and how we will respect your privacy. Learn more
> about Google’s commitment to privacy in the home.

and at least a preliminary perusal of the google home apps seems to indicate
control of nest works:

[https://assistant.google.com/explore/c/19/?jsmode=du&hl=en_U...](https://assistant.google.com/explore/c/19/?jsmode=du&hl=en_US&utm_campaign=GS102472&utm_source=external&utm_medium=email_service&utm_content=workswithgoogleassistant)

so while grumpiness about this consolidation and need to migrate / have a
google account (instead of nest account) seems warranted, this doesn't feel
like the same thing as "pulling a twitter" or a conspiracy to bait and switch
developers.

if it turns out you won't be able to actually control the nest in the same
way, I'll go get my pitchfork and join y'all, but I'm cautiously waiting to
see how this turns out.

~~~
adjkant
Read upthread, but lots of control appears to be lost - some estimated 90% of
programatic control. Grab your pitchfork :)

------
GiorgioG
Man, Google is the new Microsoft of the 90s. Fuck them. I have 3 Nest
thermostats (bought prior to the Nest acquisition.)

~~~
Rexxar
No. There is a lot of reasons to criticize Microsoft but they keep their
services/apis alive longer than any other company.

~~~
telltruth
Correct. If you had bought Windows Phone, it still works today. It's
unbelievable that they have kept the whole thing running for may be 10,000
people out there.

~~~
omgtehlion
Unfortunately not anymore. You cannot reset your device or add new apps if it
is not supporting w10 mobile anymore.

Hopefully most wp8 devices can be upgraded but I would not depend on that for
long...

------
jonstewart
I bought two Nest thermostats this winter because they worked with only R-W
wires. I turned off the learning feature, as it was useless for my house with
its combination of passive solar and radiant heat. However, the API is/was
quite simple and I was looking forward to writing my own controller.

Still, I had this nagging feeling that I shouldn’t have bought them. Thanks
for confirming my anxieties, Google! I can’t trust you, but I at least can
trust you to be you.

~~~
Marsymars
> I bought two Nest thermostats this winter because they worked with only R-W
> wires.

FWIW, I've got a gas fireplace with no C wire that I added a 120V->24V AC
adapter and a Fast-STAT common maker to for <$100 to wire my Ecobee thermostat
without needing to alter any in-wall wiring.

------
ljoshua
So let's talk alternatives. EcoBee? Honeywell?

What's the suggested alternate device and route for those of us that like a
little control, like having other services that can integrate, and don't want
to be yanked around by shutdowns?

~~~
mikestew
EcoBee is what I bought when the writing was on the wall with Nest. Works with
HomeKit, so EcoBee could go under tomorrow and Apple stuff can still talk to
it. Or if an open solution is more to your liking, works with Home Assistant,
too, though it goes through the API to work.

------
eyeareque
How soon until google gets sued for the bait and switch? This reminds me of
the Sony PlayStation Linux lawsuit: [https://segmentnext.com/2016/06/21/sony-
linux-lawsuit-ends-s...](https://segmentnext.com/2016/06/21/sony-linux-
lawsuit-ends-sony-will-pay-millions-gamers/)

~~~
conradfr
Realistically is there any lawsuit that can make any dent in Google's profits?

~~~
jeltz
While they are not civil lawsuits, EU's anti-competition fines certainly can
make a dent in any company's profits since they are based on a percentage of
global turnover.

~~~
perlgeek
Same with GDPR fines

------
herf
Anyone know if Alexa is their biggest Nest API client?

That's one way to shut out Amazon.

~~~
URSpider94
Yeah, that is the most likely explanation. Everyone else is just collateral
damage.

------
mherdeg
Hey, so how do I graph the temperature of my house at each temperature sensor
over time?

I knew how to do that with the Nest API (see e.g.
[https://github.com/peterot/nest-graph](https://github.com/peterot/nest-graph)
or
[https://github.com/nbrownus/nestflux](https://github.com/nbrownus/nestflux)
). These data provide some useful information about energy expenditure in the
house, a little better than the Nest "schedule" view of daily heating/cooling
activity and daily temperature settings.

Will this still be possible with the new indirect Google Assistant API
integration they are describing? How?

~~~
pugworthy
Lots of little tiny cheap ESP8266 based systems with DS18S20 temp sensors all
over your house, telling you far more than just a single Nest thermostat could
tell you.

Look into low power sleep modes, so that it can run for a very long time,
waking up at some interval to take a quick temperature measurement, report it,
then go back to sleep. While you're at it, have it confirm its battery level
and report that too if the battery is low.

------
inlined
Does any attorney want to speculate whether Google could be forced to accept
returns on Nest devices now that they’re materially worse through intentional
actions?

~~~
glogla
They could, but then they would delete your Gmail and permanently ban you from
their services, probably.

~~~
inlined
Retaliation seems unwise as well

------
apocalyptic0n3
IFTTT sent out an email about an hour ago warning of the pending shutdown of
their integration.

------
danols
If you build a business around a Google CONSUMER device/service/api/whatever
at this stage you are a fool.

------
orcthwy012
It's interesting to see the responses to this article and contrast with the
responses to the article regarding Facebook's possible 5B fine. I don't know
the motivation behind this decision but I can't help but see the two sides of
the same coin.

If we decide as a society that third-party apps misusing the platform in a way
that hurts the users or otherwise looks bad to the outside world is the
platform's fault, even if this was done with the user's consent (which the app
that harvested data for Cambridge Analytica had) and furthermore decide that
such conduct deserves a disproportionate fine (which 5B is, given that much
larger breaches without any consent have generally gone unpunished) because
the platform as a whole is owned by a large successful company, we cannot also
expect large tech companies to keep supporting open platforms that allow
third-parties to thrive. The economic benefits of giving control to the user
are fairly marginal and theoretical, while the risks are extremely large and
potentially existential.

I'm not intimately familiar with this particular API, but it's almost certain
that it can be abused by third party apps in a way that makes look Google bad.
Platform openness has its advocates and detractors at every company. In light
of what's going on, it would be hard for the advocates to win any argument.

~~~
CaptainZapp
_which the app that harvested data for Cambridge Analytica had_

This is just part of the picture and almost revisionist in its briefness.

Sure, they had "permission" from the user, which took that "personality-test"
to harvest their data.

Who sure as shit did not agree to have their data harvested were the friends
of those who took the test and whoms data was harvested and resold with
applomb and abandon.

Leaving this part out of your statement makes this statement a lie by
omission.

~~~
makomk
The thing is, that's clearly not what most people actually object to about
Cambridge Analytica. I mean, the same is even more true of Obama's 2012
campaign, which went so far as to harvest their supporters' friends' posting
activity to assess how best to get those friends to vote Obama, and yet nearly
all of the people who loudly decried Cambridge Analytica used this same bogus
consent argument to justify why the Obama campaign's actions were OK.

~~~
CaptainZapp
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism)

------
amanzi
If a developer has gone to the effort to integrate their solution with Nest,
I'd be very surprised if they don't get their solution integrated with Google
Assistant, and Apple HomeKit too while they're at it. So I assume that when
end-users switch over their Nest devices to the Google Assistant platform,
their existing Nest integrations will be available on the Google Assistant
platform too. Doesn't appear to be as doom and gloom as most other commenters
here are predicting.

~~~
Klathmon
I believe the kind of Google Assistant integration you would need to replicate
this kind of access is impossible in publicly available APIs currently.

Google has much more integration capabilities, but they seem to be this far
"invite only", you can't request it.

~~~
saulrh
So... The functionality exists and is currently in testing, it's only just
become stable enough that we're hearing about it, and they're notifying
developers targeting the current service as far ahead of time as possible? I
mean, it won't do anything for stuff that's too crappy to take software
updates, but that's an entirely different matter.

Edit: Finally went and read the announcement. They're really not giving people
much time, are they? Nevermind, three months is pretty bad.

~~~
IshKebab
No, this isn't a case of moving functionality from Nest to Google. They've
_removed_ the Nest API ("set the temperature", "set to away", "what's the
temperature?"). They say "move to Google Assistant" but Google Assistant
doesn't let you do that.

Also - I could sort of understand it if they provided a proper IFTTT style
system in Google Home but they don't. All you can do is trigger actions based
on a custom voice command or a time.

------
Causality1
If you're even slightly surprised by this you weren't paying attention when
Google bought the Revolv smart home ecosystem then took it out back and shot
it. All the customers got when their expensive smart home devices shut down
was a "Thanks for playing, here's a coupon for saving when you buy a Nest
because we just turned off all your shit".

Google is a company with severe ADHD. Consumers expect home appliances to
operate for decades. That is not a good mixture. If the whole "internet of
things" trend dies out and people stop buying, you bet your ass Google will
happily shut Nest's servers down and leave every single one of their customers
out in the cold. They've already done it.

I've got friends with home automation systems from the early 80s. They work
flawlessly. You think any service or device Google sells will be functioning
in twenty years? Thirty?

Call me when IBM is offering a smart hub.

~~~
fooey
When Lowes shut down their IRIS system, they actually sent out checks
refunding every cent all of their customers had paid out into their hardware.

I was completely shocked

I haven't found a replacement for them yet, but I'm incredibly wary of
investing into _any_ ecosystem these days.

~~~
Causality1
I'll trust a smart outlet to cut my AC on for me. I'll even trust a wi-fi
security camera aimed at my front yard. However, my corpse will be in the
cold, cold ground before I hook a door or an oven up to the internet.

------
Phlarp
Hey, at least they are going to roll "Nest" accounts into "Google" accounts so
hopefully the app can stop asking me to set up sms based 2fa everytime I try
to change the temp.

All that employee stock from the acquisition must be finished vesting.

~~~
shereadsthenews
Yeah, I welcome this change. Nest's account management is garbage. It alerts
me when a smoke alarm fires, but then it asks me to login, as if I have any
idea what the password is.

------
dreamcompiler
Nest screwed the pooch with me before Google bought them by changing their UI
and temporarily bricking my thermostat with unwanted firmware updates. (My
Nest still works as a dumb thermostat but I'll never let it talk to the
Internet again.)

When Google bought them I knew Nest would only get worse, and here we are.

------
tw04
Can't wait for them to tell me that Google Apps accounts aren't supported so
I'll lose all access to my Nest devices... if that happens I'll be removing
all of my Nest devices and selling my Google Home.

I'm _SO SICK_ of them acting like there needs to be a firewall between google
apps accounts and _everything else_.

~~~
glitch003
Well, Google Apps accounts are for businesses, so it makes sense that they
wouldn't work like a personal account.

~~~
codebook
Well, it was firstly advertised as free account with custom domain. I was one
of many who created the account. and keep frustrating and maintaining another
@gmail.com account for this reason.

------
jredwards
Literally bought a nest thermostat yesterday. Glad it's still in the box.
Wondering what the best alternative is now.

~~~
reificator
Hadn't set mine up yet, but I did take it out of the box. Time to pack it back
up and return it.

~~~
rs23296008n1
Defective by design.

------
inlined
Just to be clear: is this confirmed to mean that Alexa will no longer
integrate with Nest?

------
awestley
I guess all my nest stuff is going ebay... Too bad.

~~~
quickthrower2
Sell to the greater fool?

~~~
awestley
I'm going to try!

~~~
quickthrower2
On a serious note I hope someone can buy it and hack it to work with some API,
otherwise it's more landfill.

------
imglorp
Another entry for [https://killedbygoogle.com/](https://killedbygoogle.com/)

------
sexyflanders
Looking forward to when google turns off their corporate headquarters.

------
pugworthy
If you're looking for a replacement, try starting here...

[https://www.hackster.io/projects/tags/thermostat](https://www.hackster.io/projects/tags/thermostat)

Plenty of people have worked on open source / open hardware thermostat
systems. Take your anger at this and apply it to them.

~~~
cwarrior
ecobee

------
joenathanone
Can I return my Nest for a refund? This is so stupid.

~~~
McDev
I contacted one of their support guys, eventually I was put through to a
senior agent. After I quoted a bunch of consumer laws (at least here in the
UK) he was adamant that their terms of services lets them change features as
they wish so legal action is definitely going to be the only way forward.

From the follow up email: "Any product feature can be changed at Nests
discretion under the terms terms of service. It is for this reason that I
cannot refund the cost of your thermostat."

------
ajmurmann
Just yesterday I started to look into building a tiny app that checks if the
temperature in my two rooms that have a Nest is too hot or cold in one and OK
in the other and just turn the fan on instead of heat/AC. And here we go...I
guess I am not making that dumb "smart thermostat" ant smarter.

------
mherdeg
Does the Nest thermostat product still have an active firmware / hardware /
software team?

It feels like various features have been kind of frozen in place for the past
few years.

------
jimktrains2
This is why we need to be pushing for devices that use open protocols at the
very least. (Ideally they'd be fully open devices.)

It saddens me to see people buy into IoT and not think about the vendor lock-
in or data exfiltration. The thing is, there really aren't any alternatives.

~~~
Andrex
At the very _least,_ the fact that the upcoming Nest Hub Max supports Thread
is a (small) step in the right direction.

~~~
jimktrains2
What is thread? That's a very unsearchable term.

~~~
vincnetas
Protocol invented by google :)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_(network_protocol)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_\(network_protocol\))

~~~
Andrex
But crucially, has support from Samsung, ARM holdings, Qualcomm and, now, even
Apple.

------
ars
This makes it seem like you would have to use the "Works with Google
Assistant" API's instead? i.e. rather than completely not available, there's a
new platform?

Don't know about either API to know if that's the case, but it's what the page
implies?

~~~
cthalupa
It's a significantly smaller subset of APIs leaving you with far less control.

------
diogenescynic
Honestly, this is so Google. They consistently abandon products and leave
their customers hanging. I’ll never buy another product from them.

This is a huge win for Amazon. Ring will get more customers and Nest will be
abandoned.

------
4rt
headline should be "that $300 doorbell is now a paperweight".

in the future it will be "that $8000 trunk car driving computer is now a
paperweight".

~~~
pugworthy
Pretty much straight up FUD. This is not bricking Nest devices.

~~~
Aeolun
Ok, more like “That remotely controlled car with integrated taxi service you
bought?”

Well, now it’s “Just a car”

------
KukicAdnan
Google decides to unify APIs under a single IoT brand, thus shutting down
redundant APIs. Google bad.

Google maintaining multiple APIs that essentially do the same thing. Google
bad.

People are going to complain either way. I welcome this change personally and
think it makes perfect business sense. I can't think of any Works with Nest
that I have integrated in my home that's not already connected to my Google
Home, so I don't really see this impacting many negatively.

~~~
welly
Given the comments in this post, I think people disagree with you.

Not sure how you came to the conclusion that because you can't think of any
integrations you personally use that it won't affect others.

------
est
Some years later: Google shuts down Nest.

------
deg4uss3r
Anyone want to buy a nest? It came with the home and I'd rather use it as a
hockey puck than a thermostat/spy.

~~~
justwalt
That’s quite the sales pitch.

------
BadJo0Jo0
While I'm frustrated at this, I'm wondering if what I'm feeling is a knee-jerk
reaction.

I wonder how the Actions on Google Smart Homes integration works.

Will I still be able to control my Nest thermostats from Google Smart Home
Actions? This seems to be mentioned, but it's unclear what I'm able to do and
how.

------
marapuru
I wonder how big the "Works-with-Nest" ecosystem actually is. With that I
don't mean the _potential_ size, but the actual size in terms of usage.

Does anyone have a bit of insight in that? Maybe that could give more insight
in the reasoning of Google to shut it down.

------
jsilence
Yet another reason why we need protocols and not APIs.

------
mcintyre1994
It seems weird they're announcing this during I/O - you'd think they'd avoid
telling developers that their platforms sometimes shut down with 3 months
notice and with no replacement provided when everyone's paying attention.

------
qubex
I went through the elaborate motions of setting up HomeBridge to make my pre-
HomeKit Nest ecosystem inter operate with my Apple devices. Now they’ve gone
and trashed it. I guess I’ll just replace all their devices and Google can go
to hell.

------
qaq
So the only huge company not royally screwing over their dev ecosystem is MS?

------
sundvor
I read on The Verge that the Nest cameras will have their operating lights
hardcoded to ON.

They cite pervy privacy reasons, but bad luck for anyone using it as a baby
monitor, through a glass window, etc.

------
stronglikedan
The worst part is that Google Home is a complete shit-show so far. I
constantly have to redo device setups for dvices that randomly disappear,
recreate groups that lose one or more (and sometimes _all_ ) devices, and
physically reset devices that randomly disconnect from wifi. It's been a
terrible experience so far. I'd get rid of it completely if Alexa would let me
like songs on Spotify, but that's another conversation altogether.

------
systemBuilder
I am turning off my future purchases of Google Nest products.

~~~
pugworthy
Why exactly? How does this decision impact you personally?

~~~
johnwheeler
You keep repeating this in your comments like a broken record. What do _you_
care that people care? People obviously do care or they wouldn’t be voicing on
HN? Why does that bother you so much?

~~~
pugworthy
Because I believe many of the responses are irrational, and not expressing
what the actual underlying feelings are of the commenters.

People are upset that there is a reduction in the openness of things, which I
understand. People are upset that their personal projects and home hacks will
stop working, which I understand.

They should just state that though, and not the "That's it I'm never buying
Nest again" type of angry response.

If you want to hack your home, there are many open source alternatives.

~~~
parrellel
If you're dumping 2-3 hundred dollars on a thermostat, and suddenly it starts
losing functionality, not buying another one makes a bit of sense.

Or, relatedly, do you think all those labs that bought PS3's for their ability
to act as Linux clusters were wrong to sue the hell out of Sony?

------
la_barba
I understand everyone wants to dump on Google here, but Nest labs is the
company that made the API, not Google, and AFAIK they never turned a profit.
So as far as "promises" go, Google didn't really make a promise to anyone
w.r.t the API FWICT. Google has shuttered their own products plenty, but when
you purchase a loss-making company you're going to want to streamline
everything, so you can make your money back.

------
michrassena
I wonder if it's time to re-evaluate the concept of "not invented here".
Services that exist at another company's pleasure aren't a platform to build a
business on. This is effectively a type a single sourcing. There are no
contractual obligations to you on the part of the service provider, and
tremendous leverage to undermine you if you ever get big enough to get
noticed.

------
pugworthy
How many things use that API?

~~~
hello_asdf
I do. I have a command line nest app that I use to control my temperature.

~~~
pugworthy
So a personal project then, not a commercial one. My guess is they just lost a
new customer with you.

The root of my question though is this: Is most API use a hobby thing, or a
professional thing businesses are build around?

My assumption here is that the financial impact is trivial for them. They
aren't Valve ending Half-Life modding for example. If that's not a clear
analogy, Valve's enabling of modding for Half-Life enabled Counter Strike,
which basically kept Valve alive so they could become what they are now.

~~~
epc
Nest's income/expense is likely a rounding error on the Google balance sheet.
Killing off the Nest developer ecosystem is a choice, not driven by any
economics.

I have eight Nest thermostats across two homes, and a pile of Nest cameras. My
"hobbyist" use of the APIs collects and aggregates some of the data together
since the Nest UI (web or mobile) is lousy at best. Given that Google Home /
Google Assistant do not work* with my G Suite account, I'm not at all
confident about continuing to use Nest equipment after the grand changeover to
Google Home Assistant Whatever in August.

* By "do not work" I mean: You log in to a Google Home device with a G Suite account and it (the device) cannot be shared with any other accounts, and it cannot access any of your data like your calendar. Oddly Alexa has no difficulties accessing my G Suite calendar.

------
raverbashing
So "Works with Nest" is the G version of "Plays For Sure"?

Funny how the more assertive the name the more likely it is to be dumped

------
hawski
I thought about buying a thermostat for my district heating radiators. But for
the time being I just manage with a cheap thermometer and regulating the
radiator manually, because they already have a crude thermostat. It works
quite good, because weather is not changing as fast day to day and heating
season is not very long.

Many times more technology equals more nuisance.

------
asaph
Will the Nest Alexa skill still continue to work?

~~~
IshKebab
I don't see how it could.

Edit: actually the Nest skill seems to be provided by Nest, not Amazon. So as
long as they don't remove it it should keep working.

------
lgleason
It really feels like Google is starting to be forced to actually make money on
things or get rid of them. With Nest that means sell more of their products
and ecosystem instead of supporting everybody else...given last quarter's
numbers etc. it looks like they may need to begin to focus on that, especially
if the ad revenues continue to go down.

------
wil421
Just bought a home this year and I am so glad I went with Ecobee and Ubiquiti
Unifi cameras.

If your model is a subscription service I don’t want your product. Especially
if they are acquired by Google. Google has acquired and killed (or killed
their own products) more products than almost any company I use.

I don’t even want Alexa so I just turn it off.

------
ondrae
How can I return all my Nest products in the United States? Any EU-like laws
apply here?

------
thefounder
Welcome to the "cloud" world! Google is pretty "windy" these days.

~~~
crankylinuxuser
ThanosWare

At a click of a finger, half the features disappear!

------
iask
And there went my love for Nest. I’ve been one of the earliest adopters...love
the product. After they got acquired by Google I’ve been expecting this,
however, not so soon.

Time to start looking into an alternative - suggestions anyone?

------
CriticalCathed
I was just about to upgrade my home with Nest products. The other alternative
I was looking into looks much more attractive now.

I wonder if this was about money, control, or developer resources? What's the
upshot for them?

------
ummonk
This sort of thing by Google (along with dropping many beloved consumer
products) has become such a regular occurrence that I wonder how much it has
impacted the tepid adoption of Google Cloud by developers.

------
poorman
It will be interesting to see if some open source firmware comes out of this.
I wonder if we will see people "jailbreaking" their IoT devices to work with
more open/collaborative marketplaces.

------
slifin
:clap: :clap: Don't make breaking changes in public things :clap: :clap:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyLBGkS5ICk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyLBGkS5ICk)

------
pgt
I don’t want to work at a place where my projects will get shut down.

------
jonahhorowitz
Does anyone know of a good replacement for the Nest Protect Smoke Alarms? Lots
of recs for ecobee and insteon for thermostats, but I'd love a smoke detector
recommendation.

------
taneq
Google doesn't care about individual people.

Scale is fun! >.>

------
csixty4
Does this mean Alexa won't be able to control my thermostat anymore? What a
crappy way to get me to switch to their ecosystem.

------
andrewtbham
Anyone know a good replacement for a nest cam?

~~~
lwhalen
Ubiquiti is great. They make cloud integration easy if you want it, or self
hosted as well.

~~~
cthalupa
I have thousands of dollars of Ubiquiti gear in my house, but I opted for Ring
cameras instead.

Primarily because, even though I have plenty of storage space for an NVR, I
don't want to rely on thieves not stealing the thing if they break in, thus
leaving me with no footage. It would be easy enough to constantly back the
data up to a different location, I suppose, but not something I wanted to
bother with.

They also integrate pretty well with the Ring alarm system, and the $10/mo I
pay for monitoring alarm service for burglary and smoke/co2 detectors I have
also covers the storage cost for multiple cameras, etc.

I just picked up a smart lock that will supposedly get additional integration
later this year, and be able to disarm the alarm system automatically when
it's unlocked. (This functionality already exists for some other smart lock
options)

------
crottypeter
Reminds me of when nest 'bricked' revolv devices and migrated the users to
nest.

I am sticking with a non-IOT thermostat.

------
caterama
Disclaimer: I own no Smart Home devices.

Under the FAQ, I was not able to find an entry like "Will I be able to reach a
human about my Nest devices / services?". That's a bit scary. Not sure if that
was possible before though. But, considering the occasional horror story of
what happens when you get locked out of a Google account, I wonder what the
impact will be having a Nest integrated with that.

------
0_gravitas
Are there any Open Source hard/software based home-assistant alternatives to
stuff like Nest and Alexa?

------
aspectmin
Okay. What should I replace my Nest thermostat and camera with?
Recommendations appreciated.

------
Rebelgecko
As someone who uses Home Assistant to keep some level of control over my data,
this sucks.

------
24gttghh
Good. One less reason to use this type of garbage in your house anyways.

------
joejerryronnie
And this is why Google will never be able to sell to the enterprise.

~~~
rswail
This is why Google will not be able to sell things not backed by an SLA and a
contract to the enterprise.

Guess what, GSuite and GC are covered by SLAs/contracts.

But yes, this is a stupid move by Google, trying to lock out other
controllers/apps. I have been looking at home automation and I want: a) open
APIs b) security c) functionality

Most offers/products don't even do c) very well.

~~~
conradfr
They did increase Google Map Apis prices a lot almost overnight though.

------
rkochman
“Alexa, tell Google to turn up the heat”

------
thatoneuser
So what you're saying is Google is giving another red flag that any work done
with them should only be considered a privilege that can be revoked at any
time? It's funny I found this article and I'd literally just been thinking
about how I need to avoid Google products because I can't afford to have my
workflow just up and disappear when someone at Google gets promoted to a
higher level management.

------
asdfasgasdgasdg
Questions I won't get answers to, but about which I'm curious anyway:

1\. How many _end-users_ are affected?

2\. How many _devs_ are affected?

3\. What is the annual _transaction volume_ that is affected?

Depending on the magnitude of the answers to these questions, I can see
turning this API off being either a good thing or a bad thing. If hundreds of
users are affected, well. Sad, but sometimes unpopular things get turned off.
If hundreds of thousands of users are affected, this is an eyebrow-raising
decision.

Developers are also important, but less so than users. It would be nice to
keep the lights on just to let people tinker, but that same openness creates
security risks and costs money. Many on this site praise Apple when they make
restrictive decisions that harm devs, as long as those decisions are justified
in terms of end-user privacy and security.

I think the transaction volume question gets at the heart of the issue, at
least for me. If there is a lot of economic activity here, that's a signal
that user needs might not be accounted for in this decision, or at least are
not its primary driver. On the other hand, if only $1M or $2M per year is
changing hands in the affected part of the ecosystem, well . . . again,
nothing lasts forever.

~~~
cthalupa
This is the API that Alexa integration works through, so I imagine it is a
pretty large number.

