
Takeaways from coaching CEOs, founders and VCs - LeonW
https://leowid.com/2019-2
======
tomhoward
> _“We’re all just big, complicated bags of emotion walking around.”_

This has been the most important discovery from my startup journey, and the
topic on which I now place the greatest focus.

I was in the YC batch of winter 2009 – the one that included Airbnb. It was a
small batch, so we all got to know each other pretty well.

There was something that really made the Airbnb founders stand out from the
rest in that batch.

It wasn't that they seemed to have the best business idea; as has been widely
written about before, PG and the other YC partners thought their "eBay for
space" concept was stupid and would soon fail, then they would hopefully move
onto something more promising.

But for some reason, everyone just assumed that these guys were on a sure path
to huge success, and in the batch voting on the most promising startup just
before demo day, they won by a huge margin.

I didn't grasp this at the time, but over my own startup journey I realised
that the factor that made them seem so promising, and the one that held me
back and all the other companies that didn't make it, was emotional strength
and stability [1].

The Airbnb guys just really seemed to have their shit together emotionally.
Not in any bulletproof, infallible way; they had their weaknesses, and made
mistakes like everyone else, but they had a unique ability to cop the hits,
learn the key lessons and bounce back better from every challenge and setback,
and thus they kept growing and progressing at an astonishingly rapid rate.

I, on the other hand, whose business concept was considered by some others to
be at least as solid, was far more sensitive and emotionally fragile, and I
would become increasingly scarred by setbacks and criticisms, and paralysed by
fear of further torment.

Though we battled on for five years, I became physically and mentally
exhausted, and ultimately had to step away to let my co-founder and a new CEO
to take over.

In the six-plus years since then, it's been my primary focus to overcome all
my deeply held traumas and unhealthy emotional/behavioural patterns, and to
become as grounded and rounded a person as possible.

And as my healing journey has progressed, any ambitions I held to achieve
business success on par with the Airbnb founders has faded, and been eclipsed
by the realisation that in order to do _anything_ well – from running
businesses and leading social/political movements, to simply having successful
friendships/relationships, a healthy family life and a physiologically healthy
body – a healthy emotional foundation is of prime importance.

And as I methodically work though my emotional baggage, all those key aspects
of my life - career, family/friendships, and physical health - have steadily
improved, but my ambitions and visions of a desirable future have also
significantly changed from what they were when I entered YC.

Exactly what that means for my ultimate career/life outcome is still very
unclear, and to me, these days, not especially important.

But one thing is for sure; whereas I'd initially hoped that getting into YC
would put me on a path to building a "unicorn" tech company, the way it ended
up changing my life has turned out to be far more profound.

[1] The other thing that made them stand out was that they were by far the
most nice and supportive to everyone else in the batch, which I've also since
learned is a sign of emotional roundedness and wholeness; when you really have
it together yourself, you have plenty of positive energy to share with others.

~~~
LeonW
I'm touched by your vulnerability and openness. It reminds me of a client who
had built a billion dollar company and wanted my help building his next one.
My immediate sense was that that was not really why we were talking or why he
was here. We kept going and eventually I challenged him asking whether he had
really built a billion dollar fortress to never need to be vulnerable. He
broke down and we went deep, uncovering some of the deepest trauma I'd seen
someone go through when they were 4 years old. From there, everything shifted
and things took a very different direction. It's those kinds of insights, when
as you say "as my healing journey has progressed, any ambitions I held to
achieve business success on par with the Airbnb founders has faded, and been
eclipsed by the realisation in order to anything really well – from running
businesses and leading social/political movements, to simply having successful
friendships/relationships, a healthy family life and a physiologically healthy
body – a healthy emotional foundation is of prime importance.", once we really
get in touch with our inner world, things shift dramatically and what has
meaning to us changes. That doesn't mean that we don't want to to continue
having a meaningful contribution to the world, but the sense of ego-striving
that is often just a mask for our wounds can gently fall away and allow us to
walk through life a little more freely.

My learning has been whether you get to the billion dollar level or not, the
untouched wounding eventually comes through and takes its toll if it stays
unaddressed. It's stories like yours and the one I've described that make
coaching the most meaningful thing I've done in my life to date.

~~~
iliketosleep
Isn't this just essentially just a reflection of maslow’s hierarchy of needs?
I mean, everybody has their demons, and the founder of the billion dollar
company has the time and resources to face those demons by receiving top
quality professional assistance, leading him/her closer to some kind of self-
actualization. Whereas a large majority of the population (even in developed
nations) are still struggling on much lower levels of the hierarchy, such as
fulfilling their "safety needs" (e.g. employment, health, etc).

I would therefore argue that the "untouched wounding" remains buried for most
people because they are never in a position to address it, and the "ego-
striving" remains essential part of their survival toolkit. There is simply no
"salvation" in this regard for most people and it's quite sad.

~~~
tomhoward
No. Emotional healing became my top priority when I was effectively broke and
homeless. I mean, I was crashing at my parents and friends’ places, but it was
a profoundly miserable (and low-Maslow) state of existence.

Founders of break-out successful companies don’t just voluntarily embark on
emotional healing practices once they reach the pinnacle of business success.
They generally do that when they suffer a humiliating fall from grace. E.g.,
Early-career Steve Jobs and Jack Dorsey.

Also, Maslow’s model isn’t really broadly accepted in mainstream psychology,
certainly not in any linear sense.

~~~
baby
This is a prime example of survivor bias. Most homeless people don’t make it
back to the top.

~~~
tomhoward
I tried to be clear that I wasn’t “homeless” in the sense of living on the
street.

I just couldn’t make rent (ironically I had to Airbnb out my room) or easily
afford food/bills, so needed to sleep at parents’/friends’ houses for a while
as I worked to get back on my feet.

Plenty of people go through this, due to a business/career/relationship
breakdown, and recover to a good life, and it’s very common for people to
start focusing on their emotional/spiritual wellbeing when they hit rock
bottom (e.g., join 12-step programs, counseling etc).

People who are chronically homeless are in a different category, but it’s
widely accepted that chronic homelessness is usually linked to mental illness
and/or addiction (which is a form/symptom of mental illness after all).

I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about how outcomes for chronically homeless
people could be improved if they had access to the kinds of support and
healing techniques I’ve used. Given the opportunity, I’d be very willing to
support research into this in the future.

Invoking concepts like “survivorship bias” is unhelpful in a discussion like
this; my story is obviously anecdotal, not an academic paper or claim of
scientific evidence. But that aside, “survivorship bias” in this context would
require the existence of a whole lot of people who attempted the same approach
to emotional healing that I did but failed to improve their lives, and there’s
no evidence for this.

~~~
baby
I couldn’t disagree more. I think free healthcare, aides for rents, food, etc.
when you can’t afford it should be a human right. Some people manage more than
others, and we just blame this on mental illness.

~~~
tomhoward
> Some people manage more than others, and we just blame this on mental
> illness

I agree, but I don't accept that this has to be immutable, and it would be a
very bleak world/future if it did.

Rather than a world in which a class of people just has to accept a
disempowered existence with basic services and resources provided, I hope for
a world where effectively everyone can have agency over their own life, and
aspire to good health, good relationships, and a reasonable level of material
wealth.

That hope is part of what keeps me determined to explore the possibilities in
this field; to see what kinds of improvements I can attain in my own life,
then think about how these approaches could benefit others, including those
who are currently written off as "mentally ill" (which I have been at certain
times in my life).

~~~
d10r
I think I understand what you mean with that and agree with it in principle.
However you should keep in mind that you are a person with a "business
mindset". There is plenty of people out there who may well have something
valuable to contribute to this world, but have no chance of getting an
economic return out of that. This can be due to a lack of economic
mindset/understanding/education or also just due to the type of value one is
able to provide not fitting any monetization model. I believe that a modern
society can and should afford to relieve their members from existential fear
related to biological needs. That is not about taking away aspiration and
agency.

~~~
tomhoward
The combination "something valuable to contribute to this world" and "have no
chance of getting an economic return out of that" sounds like a market
failure, and something that could/should be fixed, both for the benefit of the
individual and for society.

There are indigenous Australians in remote communities, who grew up and remain
living in cultures that have little familiarity with modern commerce, but who
produce artworks that sell for thousands of dollars on international markets.
The proceeds are invested back into those communities for their future
benefit. This happens because systems have been established to make it happen.

So I'm not convinced that there is an immutable state in which a certain class
of people, while providing valuable contributions to society, cannot reap any
economic benefit or improve their own lot in life.

Can you describe an example of this situation that you've observed?

------
jonnym1ll3r
"Who are you willing to continue to become, even after you’ve accomplished
some success? What are you willing to risk, to continue going in the direction
that is calling you?"

This is a really provocative and powerful post, you have a unique coaching
perspective being grounded in somatic trauma therapy.

As a fellow male (British) ex-startup founder I can certainly relate to being
disconnected from my emotions. What are some of the most effective means for
encouraging your conversation partners to start listening and tune in?

Also, what might be some questions to ask a potential coach to see if the
relationship would be a good fit?

~~~
LeonW
I'd like to reframe this, I think there's only one way to know if someone is a
good fit for you - to have a proper, real, deep coaching session. As a
software founder I have the idea of a "trial" baked into me, so I think this
is no different here. I sometimes coach people for weeks at a time (there's no
payment), so that both of us know whether this is right for us (I have the
privilege that money is not an issue for me). So that I think is the most
powerful, because at that point someone can truthfully commit and go all in
and I think for a coaching partnership to be successful, that's the only way
in my mind. When someone asks me I often say "let's coach and you can make up
your mind after...", this really takes the pressure off, which can otherwise
dilute a process that I think is honestly, holy in my book. In other words, if
there's a coach you think could be helpful, ask them for a free, full-on
coaching session so you can understand if there's a good fit.

And the most effective means to tune in in my experience are simply finding
ways to slow down. Pausing, in talking, in walking, being in places that are
less crowded. Tuning in during a walk in a park is much easier than in a busy
restaurant. And pointing things out that you notice if someone is really
charged about something, although that is a delicate process of course. But
that's where I'd start.

~~~
prox
I really loved your article. In software we are accustomed to constant
progress, and we are sometimes on this perpetual hype train. Which creates
this stress of the next thing you need to learn, stay ahead of the game, I
wonder if in software we should more focus on calm as a counterbalance to
hype. A recent HN article I liked for instance focussed on calm apps that
instead of constantly bugging you, they quietly do their job.

------
spodek
As a coach to similar-level people and professor/coach to elite students at
NYU and Columbia Business School, I'm also impressed by how much the social
and emotional challenges can be overcome with a few exercises that teach
social and emotional skills.

It amazes me that our educational system at every level teaches so much
information, knowledge, and analytical skill but virtually ignores teaching
social and emotional skills, I guess because we can't test them in a way to
stratify learners.

Most of my practice is leading clients and students through these exercises,
which I call the basics or fundamentals of leadership, initiative, and
entrepreneurship. In every other performance-based field we don't lecture and
test but teach the basics and perform -- sports, acting, singing, musical
instruments, the military (basic training).

A few exercises make master the following a matter of rehearsal and practice,
not necessarily easy or fast, but straightforward and effective:

> _The hardest of hard things to deal with for all these people (including
> myself, when I work with my own coach), no matter the level of success, is
> the perpetual, ever-recurring loop of mental chatter, difficult emotions and
> body sensations. To frame differently, it’s our capacity to be with what’s
> alive and right in front of us, whether we like that or not in any given
> moment._

~~~
dd36
And what are those few exercises?

~~~
spodek
I haven't found writing them in internet forum conveys them effectively. It's
like telling people how to play a scale or hit tennis ground strokes. You
generally need some demonstration and practice, which most people forego.

I wrote a couple up in my blog with examples and video to illustrate. Since
the original post mentioned inner monologue, copying just the action from
[http://joshuaspodek.com/effective-self-awareness-
exercise](http://joshuaspodek.com/effective-self-awareness-exercise)

1\. Carry a notebook or a few sheets of paper for a week or two

2\. A few times each day write your exact thoughts — not the general

3\. Note the following

\- What prompts each instance

\- What emotions relate to it

\- How the instances relate to each other, what categories they fit in

Each time you write will probably take a few minutes. The whole exercise will
take about an hour over a week or two.

\---

Another example is how to make a meaningful connection:
[http://joshuaspodek.com/meaningful-
connection](http://joshuaspodek.com/meaningful-connection)

\---

Each exercise is valuable on its own, but their greatest value comes in
building to others, as scales lead to playing musical pieces and ground
strokes lead to playing tennis. Practice and rehearsal in any active, social,
experiential, emotional, performance-based field leads to self-awareness,
self-expression, mastery, and freedom.

~~~
sjg007
The first one sounds similar to a daily mood log ..

------
Roritharr
"Learning to manage your focus, not your time"

I'm a follower of this priority aswell. I can't tame the onslaught, but I can
ensure that my focus is spent in the right places.

I'd love to hear more about this topic as I often have issues communicating
what I mean by that, as many other people in my environment want to see get
things done "one after the other".

~~~
prox
I had the pleasure of working with a brilliant owner of this media company,
and what he did was this : he only gave me one task to focus on. Even if I
asked if anything more was coming up I was told not to worry about it. He made
sure everything worked out right, so truly a manager / leader in spirit. The
great thing was it created a peaceful atmosphere in the company. Focus is
great, and fully agree with the article.

~~~
Pandabob
I remember Keith Rabois describing this to be key to Peter Thiels management
philosophy at PayPal:

 _" So I am going to argue that you need to spend a lot of time focusing on
people. This is something I learned from Peter Thiel actually. He used to
insist at PayPal that every single person could only do exactly one thing. And
we all rebelled, every single person in the company rebelled to this idea.
Because it's so unnatural, it's so different than other companies where people
wanted to do multiple things, especially as you get more senior, you
definitely want to do more things and you feel insulted to be asked to do just
one thing."_ [1]

[1]:
[https://startupclass.samaltman.com/courses/lec14/](https://startupclass.samaltman.com/courses/lec14/)

~~~
prox
Interesting read! And this is exactly what I learned. On the other end of the
spectrum I’ve worked at companies that gave me three jobs, and a manager
constantly bugging me, switching goals, scope or priorities (often after a
call with a client) . And while I could certainly do it, it wasn’t very
pleasant and created a stressful environment.

------
Zelphyr
"He dared to ask what would happen if he were to truly listen and hold space,
without jamming the meeting with his ideas on what to do and how to solve
things."

Over the past year I have made a conscious effort to do this in all my
conversations. Two things really stood out for me: first, I was a REALLY bad
listener. I would interrupt a lot because I assumed I knew what the person was
getting at.

The second is that sooooo many people do that as well and it's incredibly
frustrating to be interrupted like that. What's worse; about 75% of the time
they are completely wrong about what I'm about to say. Just as I was when I
did this. Not long ago, I had finally had my fill with an Amazon support rep
and had to interrupt his constant interruptions and say, "You have GOT to stop
answering questions I'm not asking." He thankfully realized what he was doing
and took a step back to listen to what my problem really was.

Another thing I've noticed is that the smarter the person is and/or perceives
themselves to be and/or are told they are, the more they do this. Which means,
this happens a LOT in technology circles, which is unfortunate given how
critical communication is to our jobs.

It has really made a positive difference in how I deal with people though. In
listening to people, and I mean _really_ listening to them (with intent to
understand and not just to reply) you learn so much more about that person.
You notice things about them that you hadn't noticed before. You come to
understand them at a deeper level I feel. This kind of listening is definitely
something I'm trying to continue.

~~~
haecceity
Sirrah I'll teach thee a speech. Mark it, nuncle:

    
    
      Have more than thou showest,
      Speak less than thou knowest,
      Lend less than thou owest,
      Ride more than thou goest,
      Learn more than thou trowest,
      Set less than thou throwest;
      Leave thy drink and thy whore,
      And keep in-a-door,
      And thou shalt have more
      Than two tens to a score.

------
JacobAldridge
You’re a much ‘purer’ coach than I am, in the sense that I provide a lot more
business advice and fewer questions [1]. Even so, I wholeheartedly agree with
your observation that it is the personal fears and self-work that is most
impacting these leaders and their businesses.

I also acknowledge your reference to your own coach. It amazes me (and I’ve
been doing this since 2006) how many other business coaches I meet who don’t
see the value in having their own coach. That says a lot about a career (I
wouldn’t call us a profession) that is loaded with unqualified shonks.

I look forward to re-reading this piece many times. Thanks.

[1] An artefact of my clients, who are generally $2-$20M ARR with limited
prior business experience, and my own business model which engages leadership
teams more and longer, more regular coaching sessions.

------
JunkDNA
Thank you for this write-up. I recently (last ~3 weeks) started working with a
coach for the very first time in my career. I think I've been nibbling around
the edges of a lot of what you address directly here. What I'm only now
starting to have the haziest notion of is how many so-called limitations and
struggles might actually be almost total fabrications of the emotional part of
my mind. I wish I had been working with a coach a lot earlier in my career.

------
itronitron
this is a decent first draft but I feel it would benefit from a major revision
that removed the worn cliches

------
kaushikktiwari
Thanks for writing this, it’s a great end of the year reminder. Enjoyed your
focus on sensations! I did a 10 day silent Vipassna retreat and the importance
of sensations was such a revealing insight they drilled down on.

------
bryanmgreen
Thank goodness the coaching advice comes from a founder that has created
legitimate success and isn't just some random author/coach/guru.

------
loceng
I don’t want the struggle anymore. I could handle it when my nervous system
was stable, when my ego mind had solidified logical pathways to bypass
physical, and likely emotional, pain that had started when I was 4 or 5 years
old - the full extent of which was masked, hidden, until my journey towards
holistic healing practices lead me to Ayahuasca ceremonies - which dissolved
my ego and reintroduced me to the intolerable level of physical injury below.
I still haven’t been able to find stable footing, I struggle day to day, even
though over the last 3+ years I have successfully healed a significant amount
of physical pain with stem cell treatments allowing me to get closer to
grounding, still a significant amount of pain remaining preventing me from
ever fully grounding, the aversion from pain, unknown how much of the pain I
will be able to heal.

What I had been holding onto, for hope, for distracting my mind, was hope for
my very ambitious projects. The first difficult lesson in letting go was ~4
years ago; I really haven’t kept track of time, there’s no value in that I’ve
found. I was developing a platform for the yoga community and successfully
launched with decent number of yoga instructors actively using it, and was
ready to scale - with the help of my then girlfriend and business partner I
brought on when platform was ready to scale, who mainly was tasked with
outreach and support. I struggled for a few months to find a way to keep this
project alive and growing - I couldn’t. Perhaps fortunately design is where my
skill development lead me, and so over the last few years a main focus I had
was redesigning the platform of which I completed 80-90% of the new version,
however I let go of that many months ago now - I just can’t handle managing or
arranging for the next steps for such a relatively complex project; I know the
market better than most, the new updated model if implemented would scale very
quickly - I am certain if I could write an executive summary to explain the
game plan I could convince anyone the vision will be successful, except
there’s no point because I can’t execute or guide the execution of it.

All around the same time as struggling to keep the project alive, to scale:
the relationship with my then girlfriend fell apart primarily due to my
difficulty coping with the pain I could no longer be the stability she needed,
I had to fly back from our outreach in Silicon Valley to watch my father who
had requested euthanasia - but denied it - suffocate, drown to death in his
hospital bed due to his body being weak and him catching pneumonia (pneumonia
his lungs) in the hospital - watching along with my mother and sister;
[https://mattamyers.tumblr.com/post/120321181606/my-father-
pa...](https://mattamyers.tumblr.com/post/120321181606/my-father-passed-away-
yesterday#disqus_thread). It was ultimately the grieving of my father’s death
that reduced my available tolerance for the difficulties of the relationship
to zero.

As I say, my first project has always been myself - trying my best to organize
the next treatments, to try to problem solve what else may be going on.
Healing myself has been difficult on its own though with my executive function
being greatly disrupted due to the pain, and though I have tried again at
different times - mostly after when significant healing has occurred, I still
can’t handle the normal stress of moving a project forward, of hiring and
managing others. I don’t know if I will ever be able to handle any normal life
stress - whether for what I consider my life’s work, writing a detailed book
of my journey, moving my projects forward - a network of health-wellness
differentiated platforms to help shift society toward a healthier path,
friendships or more - I simply am stuck from moving forward with all of this;
this has difficulty psychologically of course. It is rare that the conditions
are right that allow me to stream of consciousness write like this, where I
write everything in one go, which allows there to be some organization
inherently in the thoughts - otherwise I’m generally unable to organize a
longer story from pieces written at different times - a part of mental
organization tied to executive function.

The turmoil from not having a stable foundation for my brain, or perhaps mind
to stem from, to develop patterns of behaviour, autonomous nervous system
habits, executing thoughts toward behaviour allowing me to move forward
without being constantly interrupted by physical pain, psychologically has
been varying degrees of hell on Earth.

Two years ago it seemed I was better able to trick myself, delude myself, into
thinking that I would soon reach the tipping point where enough pain would be
healed where my executive function and life could begin to be rebuilt;
[https://mattamyers.tumblr.com/post/160104127401/on-days-
like...](https://mattamyers.tumblr.com/post/160104127401/on-days-like-today-
my-birthday). It’s however been 2 more years of stem cell treatments with
unimaginable difficulty day to day, week to week, year to year, of struggle
trying to cope - cycling through patterns and attempting to maintain a routine
to provide as much stability as possible for myself.

When I write something long like this I wonder if it will be the last coherent
piece I write to share my story. It feels cathartic to share my story, as
we’re designed or evolved to story tell to pass on knowledge - however it is
the rare time where I am able to compile something as clear as I feel this is,
and so unfortunately it can’t end up part of my routine. I step carefully to
not touch on details of my journey including near constant occurrences of
incompetence, abandonment, lack of adequate support to not too strongly
trigger emotions, stress including post-traumatic stress, that my nervous
system just can’t handle due to the constant injection, sensitization of my
nervous system.

I no longer care to actually share my vision for my projects, it isn’t useful
to have hope - in fact optimism increases the contrast creating higher peaks
and valleys with the pain, reducing how stable or flat foundation is possible.
I could be hopeful, optimistic - I’m not broken that way - however ultimately
I’d need the help of others to move my projects forward and that doesn’t
happen, no help for me day to day or organizing treatments or someone problem
solving for me what else could be going on with my nervous system, and no help
for me for my projects; I can’t even ask for help any longer and don’t want to
because the thought of moving forward engages executive function, your mind
and thoughts lead to the body preparing itself for action - which for me, my
body trying to engage triggers, tries grounds into the pain — aversion. It
seems everyone has difficulty understanding just how locked up I am with
moving forward in life, most everyone - especially doctors - not willing to
read anything long form like this either.

So currently I am in a very dark place, more calm today after the storm that
this past week has been. I do have another stem cell treatment middle of
January already booked and organized, that at least today, I feel like I’ll
make it to. A month ago I found out after doing a microbiome test I have an
h.pylori infection - probably for many years now, that if treated may or may
not reduce pressure on my body and reduce symptoms. It took me until a few
days ago to order the supplements the doctor wanted me to take for a few weeks
before starting antibiotics for a few weeks. There are other treatments and
other diagnostics I still need to try organize. I normally share the actual
incidents and causes of physical injury, though I don’t care to at the moment,
and I am getting mentally exhausted now so my writing will start to fall apart
if I continue trying to add to this and would start adding exponential more
stress if I tried to push.

I don’t expect anyone to read this - though a thank you to other commenters
who inspired me with their openness, and to LeonW’s thoughtful responses that
let me feel this would be a safe space to share. And apologies if anything is
incoherent, too mentally exhausted now to proof read what I wrote.

~~~
antoinevg
It took me a decade of tackling no projects at all to get back on a
(different) horse.

Healing takes as long as it takes and you cannot predict the person you will
be on the other side.

------
chiefalchemist
Interesting. I was surprised there was more talk about the value of
communication. It seems to me plenty of friction rests from different forms of
comms - professional asw well as personal - gone astray.

For exame, given the first point (we're emotional) a comms void can often be
fill with false assumptions. Going forward is going to go sideways.

Yes. We can improve our inner selves. But sooner or later we need to interface
with others. That innerface is comms.

------
F_J_H
Skimming this brought to mind some of the best advice I received as a co-
founder: "get over yourself".

------
black_13
This is not the right question.

------
xchip
what a pretentious headline :/

~~~
canada_dry
You're being downvoted, but I agree.

I also find it highly convenient that " _I operate with an agreement of
confidentiality, all of the below is anonymous_ ".

I would imagine odds are decent that several of the "101" he's coached are
regular news readers and would pipe up saying how much they benefited from
Leo's guidance, yet I don't see any comments as such.

Why wouldn't you get permission from some of your clients to use their name's?
Surely out of 101, five percent would agree to be noted.

~~~
xchip
If you really coached so many CEOs you don't really need to brag about it.
This guy is just advertising himself

------
turk73
I'm sure that's where the money is, but I can't really stand being around
psychotic people all the freaking time. C-level execs, puke.

