

Y Combinator Mentoring for Women - spacejockeys
http://www.christine.net/2008/10/mentoring-women-for-the-next-y-combinator-1017-deadline.html

======
halo
I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but
this sort of thing has always really frustrated me.

I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a
business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. The sex
of the person rightfully shouldn't come into it - it's their skills that
matter. The interpreter, afterall, doesn't spit out a different result
depending the sex of the coder - a computer is ultimately a great leveller. It
has been a long fought battle to try and gain equality between the sexes and I
firmly believe society is increasingly heading towards that goal.

And then when I read things like this it feels like a punch-in-the-face, as
though it's saying "equality doesn't matter when it helps women". Or, even
worse, there's perhaps an implication that women /need/ the help of other
women to succeed and deserve special treatment. Or should I get ideas that
there is some sort of conspiracy to form the inverse to the stereotype sexist
"men's-only club" boardroom and there's some sort of attempt to reverse that
through a "women's-only club". I loathe all these implications.

I've often wondered about this curious double-standard. There's previously
been women-only discussions by Google in Computer Science at my University,
but I bet there isn't men-only discussions in the psychology department,
languages or other women-dominated social sciences and I think they'd be
highly controversial if they did. Often an eyelid isn't blinked when someone
offers something exclusively for women, but there'd rightly be uproar if
someone offered it for men-only. I often wonder if the fact that men do
significantly worse than women in exams (and as such University admissions) in
this country would be quite such a footnote if the shoe was on the other foot.

~~~
sanj
Might I suggest that you consider taking part in a class dominated by women?
Perhaps something discussing the proto-feminist leanings of Woolf?

I'm not kidding.

I think you'll find that you're lonely. That you gravitate towards talking to
other men in the group. That you feel like your voice isn't heard. That you
sense resentment towards you. That your opinion isn't valid.

Now imagine going through that every day in your college career.

(I'm assuming you're a man. If you're not, then my 97% die roll failed me.)

~~~
smoody
I know exactly what you're talking about. I once worked for a software company
where the female engineers/managers way outnumbered the male engineers. It
became known as a friendly place for female engineers to work and that, in
turn, attracted more female engineers.

But that's not my point. My point is, at that company, I would often go to
engineering meetings (with five to seven other people) where I was the only
man in attendance. And I can tell you without a doubt that it was hard to get
my opinion heard and I felt isolated.

So, I completely agree with your argument. You don't know what it's like until
you've been there.

~~~
iamelgringo
I'm a man, and I've worked as an ER/ICU nurse for the past 15 years. Being a
gender FOO in a gender BAZ dominated industry can be unpleasant and
challenging at times.

Not to complain, but to make the point:

* I almost got expelled from nursing school because of what I believe was discrimination towards men. I've talked to other men who've had similar experiences.

* I worked on a unit where my charge nurse repeatedly called me a "boy nurse".

* I am frequently referred to as "one of those male nurses".

* Many patients have asked me, "are you going to go on to be a doctor". When I tell them that I'm not, I hear, "Oh." and get a surprised, concerned look.

* I've had my ass pinched/slapped by coworkers. (I'm married. It's not appreciated)

* I had a coworker ask me to help with her, "fertility problems" and don't I look just like her boyfriend.

* Last week, I had a coworker come behind me and start braiding my long hair. I had to tell my coworker that I don't like people messing with my hair. Can you imagine if I did that to a female coworker at Google, IBM or Ford?

* I'm frequently around when women trade child birthing stories, or hear coworkers talk about their menstrual cycles.

* I've had bosses talk to me about how men don't really do foo very well as nurses.

* I'm frequently asked to "be a big, strong man and help me move my patient". I have back problems from 15 years of being asked to do things because of my size and gender.

* I've often been asked to care for hostile, combative, drunk or otherwise chemically altered patients, because I'm a "big, strong man".

I could go on.

Let's just say that I'm happy to mentor any man that comes into this
profession. There are certain tricks of the trade that will help a lot that
I've picked up along the way. And, there are benefits to being a man in this
profession as well.

If the gender FOO's want to get together and help each other out or talk about
how to deal with being FOO around so much BAZ... More power to them.

~~~
cstejerean
I'm a bit confused about the last two points. If you were a big strong female
would they not have asked you to help move patients or take care of hostile
patients? Were you asked to help with physical tasks because you are a man or
because you are strong?

~~~
iamelgringo
I suppose that's a good point.

In thinking about it, however, I haven't noticed when working in an ICU that
stronger women are asked to care for the 400+ lb patients more often.

It is a fairly common occurrence, however for men to be asked to care for
certain patients because "men are stronger". I've also been told by women that
they are glad to have more men in the industry because "men are stronger".

I could be wrong, but I struggle to think of an instance where it would be
okay for me to to categorize female coworkers as being inherently better or
worse because of a physical attribute, however.

------
pinkgarage
This is a fascinating set of responses. For those men who don't see the need
and therefore don't approve, I wonder why you are objecting? For those who see
this as exclusionary, you might ask yourself whether an all white organization
seems meant for and welcoming to a person of color, and then swap out gender
and see what your response is. Just because women live in a world where most
engineering cultures are set by men, that doesn't mean that everyone, women
and men, are impacted by the lack of diversity and gender difference. As
someone who took a woman-founded team to TechStars (yep, and I'm not an
engineer, either), we found a strong interest there in supporting many diverse
types of teams as they also sought to support the strongest teams they could
find that year. I left a voice mail for Jessica Livingston letting her know
that we were going to do this before we started it, and if I'd been more aware
of the deadlines earlier, I would have reached out earlier and started it
earlier. There are no factors except culture, comfort and class that make it
neccessary for 98% of the applicants and teams selected for YCombinator--or
any competitive program--to be male. This mentoring effort, which I started
with some friends, is meant to give women who qualify and want to apply some
support that they may perceive as lacking in a program that, to date, has been
almost exclusively male, as are most programs in the start up world. Will this
effort be exclusive to YCombnator? I think not. But you're our first noble
experiment, and if you're reading this and are a woman who'd like mentoring or
to support this, email us at pinkgaragementors@gmail.com \--Susan Mernit

~~~
jodie
I'm applying for this year's cycle and have sent pinkgaragementors a couple of
emails with no reply. Any other way to get in touch?

~~~
pinkgarage
jodie--the email is pinkgaragementors@gmail.com or email me directly via my
blog-susan mernit

------
fallentimes
_"At the last Y Combinator Demo Day I attended, there were 3 women in a room
of over 100 people. That just seems a bit low to me, and I have no doubt that
it reflects the candidate pool"_

I'm glad she mentioned this. How could Livingston not want more women
founders? She's trapped with 80 dudes six months out of the year.

I'm certainly for equal treatment, but whether the media wants to admit it or
not - people are different. That's why Title 9, quota hiring and Chief
Diversity officers (gag!) have been such utter failures. Right idea, wrong
execution. Working in admissions in school was one of the most eye opening
things I've ever done. Some of the other efforts are great, but most come off
as discriminating double standards.

~~~
aston
Just curious whether you'd be willing to share some of those eye-opening
insights with us.

~~~
fallentimes
Wouldn't really call them insights, but sure.

HHI 60k, Black, 2.1 GPA, similar EC, no record, ACT Score 16 - Accepted.

HHI 50k, White, 3.2 GPA, similar EC, no record, ACT Score 22 - Rejected.

Most were variations of that. That is, less qualified applicants in similar
economic situations were admitted solely because of race. Obviously I knew
these practices existed (oh hai Division 1 athletics), I was just surprised
how blatant it was especially with economic situations being roughly equal in
many of the cases. Scholarships were even worse, but seeing as it was a few
years ago, I don't remember specific cases. Just apply the above to general
scholarship fund stuff.

Edit: Didn't like how the first sentence read.

~~~
aston
Oh. Not that surprising, really. Affirmative action exists. Even (especially?)
in the best schools in the nation. It's not just for race, though. Women get
it at tech schools, men get it at some state schools, and poor people get it
anywhere where most students are wealthy.

For the record, I'm an adamant supporter of AA. And not entirely because it
helped me out personally.

edit: I go through all this work to say something to get an argument, and all
I do is get a downvote? C'mon guys...

~~~
ALee
Don't worry aston, the News.YC audience is primarily white male libertarian
(both right and left) leaning. Although it's a philosophically consistent
position, I think it fails to recognize that there are deep inequities in
society that the market/competition just cannot fix (and sometime the market
sometimes exacerbates).

~~~
kwamenum86
Free markets never fix societal inequities. In fact, they exacerbate them.
People with wealth use that wealth to generate more wealth. Additionally, only
a percentage of the lower class can climb to the upper class in each
generation. It amazes me that anyone thinks there can ever be "equality".

~~~
anamax
Given a choice between equality in actual misery and "poor" people who have
multiple TVs, decent housing, way too much food, and so on, why would anyone
prefer equality?

I mention that tradeoff because it's the decision we get to make. Free markets
give us poor people who live like kings compared to the poor bastards who are
all equal.

I think that Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are an acceptable price to pay for a
well-off poor people.

Me - I'm far more concerned with what I've got than I am with what someone
else has. Why are you so concerned with what other people have? More to the
point, how much are you willing to give up for equality?

~~~
kwamenum86
I am not sure why equality === misery. But I am not talking about everyone
having the same amount of money- using the word equality did not adequately
convey my feelings on this. I am talking about setting a standard for living
(we already have explicit and implicit standards) and then actually following
the standard.

Depending on the metric you are using we do well. If you are talking about
making sure people have the bare essentials, we do pretty well. The "extras"
like education are lacking though.

------
okeumeni
I like and appreciate this effort on behalf of women. I want my girls to grow
up feeling comfortable getting involve in hacking because of some of you out
there playing the role model for them.

All through my career I have seen a handful of women hackers and some were
pretty damn good ones. Keep on pushing girls!!

------
cmos
I think this is a great idea! She is offering help.

Frankly, this is the first post I've read where someone is offering plain and
simple help. It would be great if she could help everyone, but her available
'free helping' time is I'm sure limited, and she choose a filter to limit the
pool and to serve her personal goals as well.

I say thank you!

------
silencio
Yay! It's really nice to see women help other women out like this. I'm not
applying for this upcoming cycle, but I have benefitted from talking to and
being mentored by other women with more experience. Helps a lot when there's
only a very, very tiny percentage.

------
arien
I'm a girl and found the suggestion interesting. Support when you are starting
is apreciated :)

Sometimes you need someone to look upon, who you can use as inspiration or for
support. The closer they are to you the better you tend to feel. For example,
I would look first for a local incubator (Spain) instead of aiming for a
foreign one (e.g. US), but that doesn't mean the foreign ones aren't as good,
just that I probably will feel more comfy on the one that's closer and
consider we will understand each other better. This of course can be true or
not, and I will find out eventually.

Before thinking about "does genre matter", think of the subject and change
genre for something else. Does it sound normal to you? Then why the
controversy when it's about genre (or race, politics or whatever)? This is
just a proposition to try to bring more players into the game :)

------
spacejockeys
We're hoping that it gives more women the gumption to apply. It's Susan
Mernit's idea, and a good one.

------
webwright
Is it ever okay to suggest that a demographic balance is just fine?

There is a lack of european-descent long-distance runners in the top tiers.
Not too many woman play football. Very few men do much knitting. Do we need
outreach and mentoring to change make sure that all groups are a mirror of the
world's demographic makeup?

Women and men are different, and perhaps the reason that software startups are
male-dominated speaks to that difference rather than a social issue. In other
words, perhaps our society is that way because of how we are rather than how
we are being driven by our society.

All that being said, I met Christine at Demo Day was was very impressed-- if
she's offering to mentor you, you should take her up on it. If you
couldn't/wouldn't have the guts to dive in and kick ass without this
mentorship/support group, I'd suggest that you probably aren't temperamentally
suited to be an entrepreneur.

~~~
pinkgarage
So white males are the most affluent, successful class because of their
geneitics? ROFL.

~~~
webwright
Feel free to read up on what a Straw Man Argument is at your leisure:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man>

------
ALee
For all the gents out there, please stop griping. We need more women in
startups (seriously, have you been to the meat market parties after tech
events?!).

Moreover, it'll give lonely male hackers more choice beyond the no talent
Julia whatsherface-cant-get-back-my-15minoflife-after-reading-her-lameness-in-
Wired, the designer and "community" chicks, the high-powered VC women, and the
one or two technical female founders (re Leah Culver).

I've met some really talented technical women out there (see the women of
Meebo) and I've learned a lot from just talking to them and giving them the
leg up of YC, LB, or TS would be a good move.

~~~
meredydd
_We need more women in startups (seriously, have you been to the meat market
parties after tech events?!) ... Moreover, it'll give lonely male hackers more
choice_

Although you probably didn't mean it, this attitude is most definitely Part Of
The Problem. It's a pain because you're right - in an ideal, evenly-divided
environment, there would be a lot of within-group dating, and everyone would
be fine with that.

The problem is that, as long as there's a significant imbalance, the constant
romantic interest is going to be seriously offputting for the few women in the
group.

The men don't even need to be malicious or socially maladroit (although, let's
face it, as a group hackers tend to lack social skills, which makes things
much worse). What would be a perfectly reasonable level of possible romantic
interest _from each individual person_ rapidly becomes intolerable if it's all
concentrated on the lone female in a big group of males. Which is why you hear
so many female geeks screaming "Stop trying to date me, damn it, and look at
my code!"

~~~
opal
Just to add, the guys have it far worse in this situation.

~~~
meredydd
_Just to add, the guys have it far worse in this situation._

-Clonk.-

Yes, the guys have it worse _if you view it primarily as a dating situation_.
But _viewing it primarily as a dating situation_ is a large part of what makes
it so uncomfortable for the women in the first place.

Consider this very crude quantitative model: There is a group of 10 (straight)
male hackers who spend workdays together. They would prefer to spend 95% of
their day working, and 5% flirting. So they spend 5% of their time frustrated,
and 95% satisfied.

A female hacker joins the group. She's no celibate saint - she, too, would
like to spend 5% of her time flirting and 95% working. But, because she's the
only woman around, 50% of her time is occupied by her coworkers trying to
flirt with her. So, despite a much better position _in the dating situation_ ,
she spends 45% of her time being frustrated by the constant romantic attention
when she'd far rather be working.

Do you see how we could end up with a situation in which "normal" behaviour,
or "just treating someone like you would anyone else", can make someone feel
very uncomfortable indeed?

It's certainly much more serious than the minor inconvenience of being unable
to meet potential romantic partners at work.

~~~
opal
Wow, interesting. The only shortcoming is that you made this all up.

People in PLENTY of more evenly paired occupations flirt all day long. If
flirting is something a woman hates then go right ahead into programming! You
can easily avoid human interaction almost entirely.

------
blurry
As a female/startup co-founder, I find it rather unfortunate that Christine
chose to close with:

 _Let's work constructively to get more bright young women to apply._

Why young? Are women over 30 over-represented among start-up founders? Does
she feel that we are ticking time bombs waiting to run off to have babies? Is
she simply uncomfortable mentoring someone slightly older? What is it?

I don't question the intentions. But I do question the _quality_ of a
mentoring group where the mentors themselves carry outdated self-defeating
stereotypes. Reminds me of an otherwise intelligent Indian friend of mine who
is completely hung up about having darker skin.

~~~
lisawilliams
My sense is that most of the YC applicants are not just male but under 30. Is
this incorrect?

I am one of the mentors in the group and participated in TechStars at the
grand old age of 38 and have two young children, and I can say that our group
would be happy to work with applicants of any age. I don't believe that
Christine's comment is meant to indicate our support of women within a
particular age range (or whether they have or plan to have children) -- it's a
reference to what we believe the median age of YC applicants are.

Your comment does make me wonder, however: what is that number? Does anyone
know?

~~~
spacejockeys
Lisa is correct - the comment was pragmatic, not didactic. I don't know the
actual median age of the YC applicant pool, but in my own anecdotal and
unscientific experience (e.g., who have I met in person at events, or heard a
pitch from) the median YC participant is around 23, and has yet to develop the
familiarity with pitching that comes from years in the industry. Also, if
program awareness comes from social networking or from university outreach,
I'd expect a dominant concentration of 20-somethings in the pool.

------
axod
Surely this could have been worded to come accross as slightly less offensive:

"Y Combinator Mentoring from prominent businesswomen".

~~~
misuba
And less accurate, yes.

Considered asking yourself why something being for women is offensive?

~~~
axod
Sure, for the same reason if something is for whites only it's offensive, or
for men only.

It's pointless anyway... Why aren't there more white basketball players?
Racism? Probably more likely the same reason there aren't more women founders.

You have to admit a special school only for white basketball players would be
pretty offensive. no?

~~~
misuba
No no no; I said _ask yourself._ Don't just repeat what you already know;
think a little longer and look a little deeper into where the offense, the
_feeling of offense in you,_ comes from.

~~~
axod
heh I don't take life seriously enough to get offended.

I'm just looking for a bit of consistency here though. Either every instance
of racism/sexism is offensive, or they are all fine.

------
lemonysnicket
shouldn't the mentoring be for your start-up in general, and not just the YC
app?

