
How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage - ilamont
https://mondaynote.com/how-facebook-is-fueling-the-french-populist-rage-27a86acb9d85
======
purplethinking
I don't like Facebook more than anyone else, but at this point aren't we just
blaming them for enabling communication?

By all means, criticize Facebook for privacy issues, but not for stuff like
this, unless you actually want censorship on the largest scale ever in
history.

~~~
mc32
It’s odd because they pick and choose which “violence” is right and wrong.
When Arab spring (in the end a very destabilizing movement) was facilitated by
FB and Twitter it was great. When it facilitates caravan protests it’s great.
When it facilitates anti-tax movements that threaten viability of an unpopular
(vis a vis locals) but popular internationally (ie elites) then it’s seen as
facilitating “bad” protests. Obviously media like to pick their narrative and
winners and losers, deserving of freedom and those who don’t rather than let
the masses decide for themselves.

That’s manipulation by traditional media upset their worldview and power to
project it is slipping away from them.

~~~
duality
This may be my reading only, but "populist" seeems to carry a negative
connotation. I wonder, what is the opposite of populist? Is it "elitist?"

~~~
nindalf
If you agree with decision taken by the majority then it's "democratic". If
you disagree, it's "populist".

I'm from India where we have a similar term in the political lexicon - "vote-
bank politics". It's means a policy that a plurality of voters (the "bank")
like and want, but you don't. If you're within the vote bank, then it's no
longer vote-bank politics, it's democracy in action.

------
jdhn
Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Personally, I feel that a lot of this
hate towards Facebook is done by media types who are jealous that Facebook has
stolen their role as a place to find news, no matter if it's fake or real.

~~~
hardwaresofton
Yeah, as much as I dislike Facebook, at this point I'm kind of concerned about
how much bad press is coming out about _one_ company.

Most other tech companies (especially the ones still in the "hustling" phase)
are just as bad as FB if not worse. It's starting to feel like a coordinated
smear campaign, even if all of it is accurate.

~~~
amelius
> It's starting to feel like a coordinated smear campaign, even if all of it
> is accurate.

I don't get it. If it's all accurate then what is the problem exactly? That
all the anger is directed at FB? They are the largest social media company,
and in the good times I have never heard them say "but other social media
companies deserve some love too". Running a business is not supposed to be
easy.

~~~
sanxiyn
> I don't get it. If it's all accurate then what is the problem exactly?

Selective reporting is a huge problem. You can distort almost any topic by
selectively reporting only truthful things.

~~~
hardwaresofton
Yup. In addition to this, for every extremist/unsavory group that gathers on
FB there are probably a bunch more wholesome (or at least unsavory) groups
that have a chance to congregate for almost free (minus the cost of some
privacy). Facebook is accelerating volunteer orgs, philanthropies, and all
sorts of other organizations that do good, but that doesn't necessarily get
reported on, an even when it does the cynical.

Again, I'm not defending Facebook, but it's pretty peculiar -- they just seem
to have been in hot water every day for the last few months. Maybe it's a
vicious PR cycle where regular media outlets are now being incentivized to
report on FB's negative press because that's what's getting clicks.... because
negative press is being produced.

[EDIT] wanted to add that this is part of how people get sucked into
conspiracy theories... No one has time to verify and fact-check every single
fact, and editors/media outlets are doing it less and less these days. A few
lies mixed in with a bunch of facts are sometimes really hard to find but can
have lasting impacts on your world view/view of some subject. Of course,
sometimes conspiracy theories, outlandish-seeming claims, and smear jobs are
sometimes true and justified.

------
paganel
> Sometimes, the social network carries obvious fake news, such as images of
> bleeding protesters taken two years ago in Spain or spreads the rumors of
> tanks ready to move against the Yellow Vests (15,000 interactions).

This video of senseless police brutality looks in fact to be pretty real and
from the latest events:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK8b4plAlJQ&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK8b4plAlJQ&feature=youtu.be)
. Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's lots of fake news related to the recent events
but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater by saying that everything
that gets shared on social networks is fake news.

~~~
stef25
People getting their ass beat for trying to set fire to a McDonalds while
protesting the high cost of living deserve no tears, I'm sorry.

Also, if you're going to pick a fight with a crew in full riot gear it's best
to not get cornered by them.

~~~
paganel
There's a very good reason why there are even international treaties
forbidding an army force to physically molest the opposing side once the
latter has surrendered, because that way the conflict doesn't need to escalate
to the point of total destruction for both sides.

More to the point, the protesters seeing this video will know that
surrendering to the police will probably get their arms and feet broken so
next time they protest they'll do almost anything in order to not let that
happen, i.e. they'll become even more violent or/and they'll come better
prepared for physical confrontations (better body-gear, actual weapons).

~~~
stef25
> the protesters seeing this video will know that surrendering to the police
> will probably get their arms and feet broken

The ones getting their limbs smashed weren't protesting, they had destroyed
and broken in to property with the probable intent of causing more damage.

All of this in a setting where police is massively outnumbered while being
pelted with 10 pound rocks, bottles, fire crackers and tear gas.

Giving someone a beating to incapacitate them (no time for arrest & paperwork)
is fair game in my eyes.

~~~
paganel
> Giving someone a beating to incapacitate them (no time for arrest &
> paperwork) is fair game in my eyes.

This is a very wrong view to hold, imho. Modern political concepts like the
German Rechtsstaat or the English "Rule of law" depend on the police not doing
what they're seen doing in videos like this one. If the general populace feels
(or even starts to feel) that the police and the powers that be play by no
rules then we'll be in a world of hurt and anarchy.

~~~
stef25
Let's hope the general populace can see the difference between peaceful
protestors and people just wanting violence and destruction.

Macron's body guard getting filmed (out of context) beating a protestor led to
him being arrested, suspended and then demoted and profuse apologies from
France's head of state.

So I think police is still being held accountable the way they should.

------
zabana
Genuine question: Is it just me or the whole 'fake-news' concept seems like an
excuse for ~old~ traditional (failing?) media to continue to act as
gatekeepers of information ? I've seen an increasing number of alternative /
independent journalists and websites being given the label of "fake-news site"
recently and I'm a bit worried to see that trend continue.

~~~
dao-
I'm sure it's not just you but you could still be wrong. :>

What you consider alternative / independent journalists could be charlatans by
journalistic standards. It's hard to say in the abstract.

~~~
asianthrowaway
Yeah, establishment journalists consistently provide accurate information,
like the time they discovered that huge stockpile of WMDs in Irak.

~~~
dao-
When journalists fail to adhere to journalistic standards they should be
criticized for that. What's your point?

~~~
zabana
I guess the fact that we have to separate independent journalists from the
ones working for privately owned outlets is problematic in itself.

~~~
dao-
Right, what I'm saying is that we should uphold objective standards rather
than just saying independent journalists are generally more/less trustworthy
than established ones.

~~~
zabana
Yes this is very true. There are honest journalists and frauds on both sides.
(wink wink Alex Jones)

------
0x445442
How the Legacy Media is fueling discontent toward competing sources of
information.

How government officials are panicked over losing control of narratives.

Please trust us Plebes. we'll give you the information you need.

~~~
degenerate
Not sure why you are downvoted at the bottom, because you are right. As long
as media continuously and relentlessly post articles about how terrible
facebook is (as a "news source"), the legacy organizations will stay relevant.
They are fighting for survival and it's more obvious now than ever.

------
zorked
Brazil had such an outburst in 2013, also seemingly spontaneous and enabled by
social networks.

Fast forward a few years and the president-elect is a far-right idiot who ran
on a platform of conspiracy theories and attacks on the press, supported by a
huge disinformation campaign on anonymous, encrypted and widely popular
messengers, completely bypassing all forms of campaign accountability.

Ignore the symptoms at your peril.

------
lordfoom
What's with all this defense of facebook in the comments on hacker news
lately?

~~~
tonyedgecombe
They employ a lot of programmers, I imagine at least some of them are here.

~~~
ceejayoz
Not to mention PR firms.

[https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/facebook-hired-
firm-h...](https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/facebook-hired-firm-house-
fake-news-shop-combat-pr-crisis-n936591)

------
buboard
Facebook is proving to be a bestseller with the media. Not a day goes by
without 3-4 of those stories becoming "news for hackers"

~~~
stochastic_monk
It seems that this content source is only concerned about news about prominent
tech companies, which matches their Palo Alto location. Facebook’s been going
through the grinder because they’ve recently had a lot of evidence against
them come out; of course technically interested people care about a leader in
research and industry.

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=mondaynote.com](https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=mondaynote.com)

~~~
buboard
doesn't explain why there are at least 2 similar stories at any time in HN
frontpage

I mean, from an entrepreneurial standpoint,maybe "antifacebook as a service"
is a valid idea?

~~~
stochastic_monk
250 pages of documents being released contradicting prior statements could
reasonably be expected to cause an increase of coverage.

------
dopylitty
I'm leery of any movement that the media refers to as "populist" as it seems
many of these movements in the past years have been fueled by concerted
efforts by despotic governments to destabilize democracies (Ukraine, US) or
spread internal discord (Myanmar).

Facebook and Twitter play a key role in these influence operations by not
adequately detecting and removing accounts controlled by these despotic
governments until after the fact.

Traditional media outlets are not blameless as they frequently treat the
results of these intelligence operations as though they were authentic
grassroots movements.

~~~
saalweachter
Frankly "populism" has been a code word for nationalism/racism/xenophobia my
entire life.

------
sylvinus
> the worse civil unrest ever seen in France

It's major, but quite far from the worst we've ever had.

~~~
saagarjha
The article even mentions the French Revolution!

~~~
conanbatt
During the French Revolution, the police didn't run out of tear gas. This one
is clearly bigger.

------
pjc50
"France has riots" is hardly news, since '68 onwards. This time it's not the
_banlieus_ or the students, but what in the UK we'd call "white van man"; the
self-employed working class.

The spread of fake news at viral speed _is_ somewhat new, but people taking to
the streets is a much more normal part of French politics.

------
wazoox
Poor analysis by a journalist who works for the most corporate French
newspaper (le Monde), which is largely subsidized by the government (21
millions euros a year). Nothing to see, really. 72% of the French population
still supports the movement, albeit all the efforts from the government and
media, the insisting on violence... and the explanation still is "people are
stupid and manipulable?". No, the explanation is simple, the People is right,
and its Will is just; and the smug Parisian journalists are just displaying
their class contempt for the unwashed masses, and this is frankly disgusting.
"Macron, démission".

------
fabricexpert
> Zuckerberg controls its board and his number two, Sheryl Sandberg, can’t
> decently be fired, protected by the “Lean In” flak vest.

That's a poor, cheap shot at women's rights. How sad that an article that
wraps up with this can sit at #1 on HN.

------
rchaud
I see; now that mass unrest has reached the doors of the rich world, social
media is a serious problem and requires immediate regulation. I don't recall
any such hand-wringing during the 2011 "Arab Spring", itself a darkly comical
title given what later unfolded in Libya, Egypt and Syria.

Back then, the narrative among western governments and press was that Twitter
was a beacon of hope, allowing free democratic expression in dictatorial
regimes. Not a word about the potential for bad actors to leverage the power
of such networks to create political instability so they could take the
throne.

------
jklinger410
Can someone explain the nuances of these protests?

Am I wrong to find it weird that the seemingly liberal, "woke" French are
rioting over a carbon tax? Aren't carbon taxes progressive and environmentally
responsible?

~~~
Totoradio
It's very complicated to explain because it's not a "traditional" movement run
by a leader/political party/union. Protesters are all over the political
spectrum.

It's the combination of (real and/or perceived):

\- rise of inequalities

\- new taxes (including the carbon tax)

\- removal of taxes impacting only the rich

\- sentiment of neglect of the rural areas by the government

\- disdain for lower classes by Macron

\- lower purchasing power for low/middle class

and probably some other stuff. It's really an aggregation of all that. Add the
fact that there is no leader, no precise demands, this makes a nightmare for
the government to fix or contain.

~~~
seren
And maybe interesting, or dangerous depending on the point of view, amongst
the rioters you got both far-left and far-right movements on the same side,
which is something that does not happen that often.

~~~
baq
it'd be helpful to explain what far right and far left mean in the context of
France, as I doubt it's the same thing as in e.g. USA.

~~~
Totoradio
Far left would be anarchists, black-blocs, and a few communists in there too.

Far right would be openly pro-nazi, or Vichy nostalgic small organizations
like Oeuvre Française and other dissolved and then formed again groups. Add
unaffiliated fascist skinheads in the mix.

Then again, almost every nuance of the spectrum between those two is
represented in the protesters.

------
vixen99
And it could merely be that folk on the edge of French society — truck
drivers, provincial plumbers, builders, deliverymen, teachers, parents — are
saying `Enough is enough. Stop making our lives harder.’

~~~
stdbrouw
How exactly are truck drivers, provincial plumbers, builders, deliverymen,
teachers and parents parents on the edge of French society? How are their
lives being made harder?

~~~
justtopost
Those classes seem disproportionately affected by higher transportation costs
in already low-margin but nessarry jobs and careers. While the effect may be
exaggerated, it is not imaginary by any stretch.

------
aklemm
So really we need to grapple with the unexpected (or unfortunate)outcome that
bad ideas easily win out when communication is greater than ever.

------
0x445442
How Facebook is Fueling the Watts Riots... Oh wait.

------
janzij
How is this any different from the Arab Spring? Why should this be silenced
while the Arab Spring had to amplified?

~~~
close04
Because the protests against the democratically elected leadership during the
Arab spring... Oh wait.

You may hate something equally under any regime but there's a huge difference
when that something is done in a democracy versus basically any other common
form or government. In democracies issues can be (are?) solved at the election
booth. Not so much in a dictatorship, a monarchy, or any "pseudo-democracy"
(see China), etc.

~~~
sanxiyn
Protesting is very democratic. South Korea showed that to the world.

Sure, South Koreans could wait one more year and solve the problem at the
election booth, but protesting solved the problem faster.

~~~
Veen
Protesting is one thing. Vandalism, looting, and firebombing are not legal
protests.

~~~
sanxiyn
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is
the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new
Government.

~~~
Veen
Macron isn't Hitler or Pol Pot or George III. He wants to put the price of
diesel up to reduce environmental damage. He wants to reduce taxes on the rich
to spur the economy. You can disagree with those aims, but he's not destroying
the French system of government. For that, look to Venezuela.

~~~
janzij
He's a neoliberal who's screwing the working people, and now the working
people are protesting. While I agree with the premise that they should've
chosen someone else who cared about them like Le Pen, I don't see how this
protest is illegitimate. (Not that I'm defending the property damage, of
course.)

------
vtesucks
Populist has a derogatory connotation and insulting peoples will seems
improper

~~~
yakcyll
> Populist has a derogatory connotation

For a very good reason.

> insulting peoples will seems improper

It does seem improper, but drawing the connection between calling out people
drawn to populism and insulting them is one of the least discrete attempts at
muddying the waters I've seen recently.

~~~
douglaswlance
Socialism is populism on the Left (i.e. distributing wealth at the point of a
gun). Populism on the Right is instead via a more democratic method of
building a strong market that lifts all ships.

~~~
krapp
>Populism on the Right is instead via a more democratic method of building a
strong market that lifts all ships.

...also at the point of a gun.

You're being disingenuous in evoking the monopoly of force but only applying
it to "the left", in order to imply that, "socialist" governance is more
coercive (and thus less legitimate) than any other.

If you live in a state that collects taxes or regulates the market, or any
system other than anarchy, then you live under a regime that distributes
wealth at the point of a gun.

And with anarchy, you're just trading the monopoly on violence for a free
market of violence.

~~~
douglaswlance
Socialist Populism seeks wealth redistribution for individuals by using force
against people (in addition to organizations) via taxation.

Market Populism seeks wealth redistribution for organizations by using force
against organizations exclusively to break up local maxima (monopolies,
duopolies, etc.).

Both use force, but one operates on the individual level, the other at the
organizational level.

