
Stallman: Why it is important not to have children (2012) - shubhamjain
https://stallman.org/articles/children.html
======
theonemind
Before you post, 1\. Are you a parent? 2\. Are you about to post some
variation of "Richard Stallman is emotionally broken?" i.e., "What an
oversimplification by somebody who sounds like an emotional failure", or "I
feel bad for poor Stallman" or "What a sad man" 3\. Are you a parent, or have
strong feelings about becoming a parent?

If you answered yes on step 3, and want to know how I knew, it's because you
disregarded that Richard puts his ethical argument for the implications to
humanity first, and you go for personal "attacks" rather than addressing the
crux of the argument.

~~~
raverbashing
Every person is somebody's child

"Implications to humanity?" There's no humanity if people don't reproduce.
It's that simple

~~~
bluejekyll
Implications would be that future generations of people would have a
functional planet to live on.

Stallman is making the argument that it's acceptable to not have kids for very
good reasons, and that many people might be better off not having kids. He is
definitely not saaying everyone should stop having kids.

I think all too often people who will turn out to be horrible parents are
pressured into having kids. Not everyone should have kids.

~~~
Dateki
This is a site which works through further arguments.

[http://vhemt.org/](http://vhemt.org/)

------
austincheney
What an oversimplification by somebody who sounds like an emotional failure. I
am very active in writing OSS (probably more so than with my primary job). I
also have two jobs (corporate web developer for a major dot com and army
reserves) and yet still find time for the healthy marriage and kids (of whom
are now teenagers). It certainly can be done. It certainly hasn't made me
wealthy though.

I wouldn't be able to make this happen at all if it weren't for personality. A
certain amount of charisma, dedication, humor, and patience. I am also a bit
more hyper than the average person and require far less sleep than average and
don't spend any time on Twitter or Facebook.

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brutus1213
As a new father, what he said about fathers doing what it takes to support
their kids hit home. That said, I have made a decision (it wasn't a grand plan
but sort of happened over the past few months) to put my family over my
career. This meant forgoing a promo to management when I was next in line, and
some other things. I'm not going to say it doesn't hurt .. but when I see my
kids smile, I know it was the right decision for me.

------
jstewartmobile
I am so glad I had children. I enjoy their company tremendously, and the added
responsibility has sharpened my game.

That, and the whole eco-disaster angle is overblown. Thanks to birth control,
Westernized peoples are barely replacing themselves.

I feel bad for poor Stallman. Too focused on saving the world to save himself.

~~~
dogma1138
Western people aren't even replacing themselves without immigration Europe
would be in a population decline.

The US still has a positive natural population growth but many countries do
not.

I find the arguments for not having children a disastrous one.

Reproduction is effectively our prime directive as a life form. Furthermore
it's utterly ironic that the people that could care for their offsprings the
most seem to have the least interest in reproduction.

And arguably the best way to avoid and ecological disaster is to reproduce and
teach the next generation better, with each child we also increase the chance
of someone being born that will have a huge impact on society, technology and
culture.

~~~
youdounderstand
That presupposes some reason for humanity to keep existing.

~~~
dogma1138
I really don't understand these types of comments - humanity shouldn't exist;
fine then practice what you preach, but I doubt you are willing to go first.

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orthoganol
I think this is the kind of discussion that requires careful disclaimers or
self-disqualification from participants. If you have chosen to have kids, or
sworn to never have them, your position will be irrevocably slanted. The same
goes for discussions about marriage, or fundamental lifestyle choices like
being a digital nomad vs. working at a well known tech company. I don't think
I have ever seen one side bridge the gap with the other.

EDIT - I'm not saying this applies to all discussion, I'm saying this applies
to a special class of discussion. I'm also not saying don't discuss, I'm
saying if you're already in one camp, know that your position is irrevocably
slanted so take that into consideration.

~~~
bluejekyll
Well, in that case why debate anything at all?

People will always have biases, and if you limit discussions to those that
don't have biases, then you remove all real life experience from the debate,
at which point how would you possibly reach a valid conclusion?

Stating you bias upfront, then trying to come to objective consensus is the
entire point of debate and discussion, isn't it?

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pskocik
A very smart programmer who's made a large contribution to society decides not
to have kids while people of which neither can be said breed like rabbits.
Looks like we'll be watering crops with Brawndo pretty soon.

~~~
dogma1138
^ Idiocracy (the movie) to anyone who missed the reference.

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doytch
I think it boils down to the fact that you can't give 100% to multiple things.
If you're passionate about your work and want to give 100% to that, your
social life, your home life, your health, or any other portion of your life
simply won't get 100%.

That said, this'll get a bunch of people jumping on him. People hear this in
general and and it makes sense, but hearing it with respect to childcare tends
to elicit a more combative reaction. Which is understandable, nobody likes to
be made to feel like they're a bad parent.

------
Normal_gaussian
Whilst in principle I agree with him the piece reads as a desperate post-event
justification for not having had children.

I think the real reasons he has no children can be found in the last email on
this page: [https://stallman.org/ex-boyfriends-
list.html](https://stallman.org/ex-boyfriends-list.html)

As for having children - it is something I am greatly concerned about.
Personally I really want children, though I do not want them unless I am
convinced I am with the right person. My motivation is both selfish and a
desire to put better individuals than myself into future society. Adoption and
sponsorship spring to mind as incredibly likely occurrences even if I have
children.

~~~
reducesuffering
Oh wow. Those emails could very well explain why he doesn't have children. Why
would he put those up?

~~~
Normal_gaussian
It was the fourth link on a google search for "stallman married".

As to why somebody would put such a thing up I don't know. I started to click
around his site a bit more after posting and became increasingly
uncomfortable.

I find it saddening, but of what I did see of the rest it seems he views his
ventures into personal relationships as amusing, and I can't help but consider
such openness in his specific case to be useful as a warning for those in our
society who may fall down a similar path without intending to.

------
darod
While the overpopulation argument is debatable, the decision to have or not
have kids is a personal one. While some believe reproduction is our prime
directive as a life form, I would argue passing information to the next
generation is our prime directive. Whether it's through DNA or a book, this is
the way our species evolves each generation.

On another note, I find it interesting that having been inflicted with cancer
at 33 that I have friends who still encourage me to have kids. I don't think
changing diapers between rounds of chemo would be a wise decision.

~~~
dingaling
> Whether it's through DNA or a book, this is the way our species evolves each
> generation.

That's a great point and although I am currently raising a toddler I really
don't feel that I've 'contributed' to society or humanity in general at this
point. Many colleagues talk about their hope that their kids will 'grow up to
do something great' but that's abstract and wishy.

My wife was very keen to have a child before she was too old to accept the
risks, so we did so. But I'd much rather have put the time and money into
research for a book that would propagate at least a little knowledge forward
in time.

------
Jamesbeam
I think you should respect his choice, but we can argue about the reasons and
argumentations for that choice.

I don't know if Mr. Stallman has siblings. But if not, it means that his
bloodline will end with his death. Let that sit for a moment and think about
it.

Think about the hundreds of people in your ancestry that lived through world
wars and the dark ages and all kinds of other "bad times," compared to the
hundred or so years we are currently living in so that you can make a choice
to end your bloodline for good.

While he has some pretty compelling reasons, he also potentially denies
humanity not only the best version of himself and his values but maybe one of
the greatest minds of their time. If you don't have kids, you'll never know or
see their real potential.

I personally think you owe it to the people who went through pain and hunger,
slavery, world wars, and all of the kind of other terrifying things that we
can read up in our history that you keep the bloodline going.

So while I respect the choice he made, I wouldn't necessarily call it clever
for a man with his intellect.

It is only one thing for sure and that is egocentrically and selfish. On the
other hand, if he truly thinks he has nothing of value to pass down the line,
be it genetic material or his values, then it is a good thing he decides to
have no kids.

~~~
fourthark
You can certainly pass values down to the next generation without having kids.

~~~
Jamesbeam
Sure you can, it's not exclusive to your kids.

But let me give you an example. My ancestry is very well documented back to
1100ish.

Most of my ancestors had either a military function or later on were law
enforcement officers. When I grew up, my parents left me the choice to do
anything I want.My grades were good enough to go to a University and become a
doctor or lawyer. But since I've been a child I had a natural desire to
protect people. I did that in school. And well I am retired now, but I did
that for all of my life more or less.

This could of course just be imagination as there is no scientific proof.

But I think that some of these values were passed down our bloodline. And that
is just different than learning values from someone else. It's like an
imprint.

So if you decide not to have kids and you don't have a brother or sister who
can keep the bloodline going that is an absolutely fine choice, but it's also
a shame that that genetics and traits that were passed down for centuries get
lost.

English is not my mother tongue, I hope you can get my point.

~~~
Thiez
> So if you decide not to have kids and you don't have a brother or sister who
> can keep the bloodline going that is an absolutely fine choice, but it's
> also a shame that that genetics and traits that were passed down for
> centuries get lost.

That's silly, unless you family has been has been having a single child for
each generation the last 9 centuries, the genes of your ancestors from back
then will probably be in hundreds or thousands of people living today. On
average, people have been having more than two children per family for
hundreds of years, so each generation you go back will have exponentially more
descendants, and up to some limit the number of ancestors you have also
doubles each generation you go back. Of course once you go back far enough it
turns out we're all related.

So it may be the case that some of the genes of your direct parents will not
get passed on if you and your siblings never have children. But it's
_extremely_ unlikely that this means the end of a 900 year bloodline.

------
LisaDziuba
If I told it to my mother, that would be the worst disappointment in her life.
In our culture, you _must_ be married and have children (before 25 y.o).
Otherwise, you are not normal and everybody around (parents, friends,
acquaintances) will ask you stupid questions:

"when are planning to merry?" "when are planning to have children?" \+ long
educational lecture on why it's so important. That's a disaster.

------
SpaceInvader
Having kids is the best thing that ever happened to me.

------
bluejekyll
While I tend to agree with I him I did decide to have kids. And they're
awesome, a lot of work, and completely all consuming of your time. That's why
this statement from someone who opted not to have kids seems so disconnected:

> You can also say, "Having children is selfish. If you don't have children,
> you can dedicate your time to something that the world really needs."

Actually, I believe successful (and I suppose my success or lack of is
probably still 13 years from proving out) parenting requires complete
selflessness. An ability to look past your own desires and needs to focus on
those of your kids. There isn't a better trial in life, than having to make
the difficult decision about doing something for yourself, or something for
your kids. Marriage is similar.

When I explain being a parent to people, I make it clear that you will be
giving up significant amounts of your own time and desires. So if your good
with that, then when you have kids, try and be as present as possible for them
to help them grow into decent humans.

------
clinth
I have a ton of respect for people who choose not to have children, for
whatever reason. Good on them. I think the societal drive to marry and have
children is bullshit, especially for women. You can be a fully-realized person
without children.

Having said that, it's not a _bad_ choice to have children. This essay covers
a lot of ground very quickly, but the part about effort distribution resonated
with me and I disagree with it. Yes, career plus family are challenging, but
I'm glad I have both.

There's never 100% done with with anything, including parenting and work. I
don't know a single person who has fully accomplished everything they want to
do, no matter how singly focused they are. I don't know what 100% parenting
would look like. Kids aren't sculpture which stop progressing when not being
worked. They're people. Yes, as a parent you spend time with them, and
thinking of them, but you're not failing when you're thinking of something
else.

------
crasp
Disclaimer: I am a parent. Regardles here's my 2c:

I can't speak for the places where this article was published but given this
site is its only source this will mostly be read by people that are in general
interested in programming or have some interest in open source software. I
think we need some kind of future where these genes might be needed to
actually help turn the tide on most of the problem with overpopulation, the
environment and climate change.

This will most likely not be read by people that do not care about programming
or open source software or simply do not care about any of this stuff. They
will still reproduce and make the problem bigger. I would say the people that
DO care about all these things need to be well represented in the future as
well if we want to see change in the future as well.

I am not saying he makes no valid points but these points mostly miss their
target audience and are read by the wrong group of people.

~~~
bluejekyll
It doesn't necessarily need to be your own kids that you teach these skills
to.

There are lots of programs to which you can donate your time to help teach
children, and we should all be doing that more.

Yes, there is some amount of genetics that will not get represented, but I
don't actually believe that the human genetic pool is so focused that we will
actually miss out on some next evolutionary step.

------
Dateki
The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement It fits on a bumper sticker: May we
live long and die out.

[https://vimeo.com/7652051](https://vimeo.com/7652051)

"A short film by Nina Paley that explores the topic of human population growth
and how it is affecting life on the planet. Using humor and some great clips
featuring Les Knight of VHEMT.org, and Cris Korda of the Church of Euthanasia,
Paley brings light to a topic that gets little attention in the traditional
media."

------
razzaj
Sure, kids complicate things. They also have the unique attibute of being non-
undoable. And life is surely much simpler without them. But aren't all
enriching things in life complicated? Like love, starting a company,
friendship, learning. I have kids, and i dont think of people who decide not
to have any as "wrong". This is clearly a personal choice, but i can
definitely say they are missing out on a great source of richness, and tons of
joy.

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throwaway161112
I had similar beliefs when I was in my 20s and now I have two children in my
late 30s. We all have to row our own canoe. That being said. This is an
interesting topic that has to have some academic research and/or modeling
behind it. Anyone have some sources? What happens if our best minds do not
reproduce? What is the expected outcome of Japan's population decline?

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losteverything
<Not having children is an important contribution to humanity.

The only thing that matters is having children that have healthy children that
have healthy children. It's our purpose to keep the species going.

Two emerge. Those that keep the species going and those that support those
that keep the species going.

Thank you for your contribution to humanity as you stated.

------
leecarraher
i can't tell if Stallman is trying to become an amalgam of Roald Dahl
antagonists to maintain his lore, or if it's just his baseline demeanor. Also
his point that you can't get anything worthwhile accomplished while being a
competent parent misses quite a few amazing parents and contributors to
humanity.

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Hydraulix989
Can somebody please explain to me why this got flagged?

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crispytx
What a sad man.

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pksadiq
Seems like he forgot that he himself was a child. He wouldn't exist to say
this if not. Ironic!

