

"Don't f***ing trim the copy" - jessepollak
http://jessepollak.me/2012/07/05/dont-fing-trim-the-copy/

======
zemaj
Eh, I think your co-founder has the wrong attitude here. I edit the copy all
the time my co-founder writes. Sometimes I tell him, sometimes I just deploy
if I'm in the middle of pushing something out. Building startups is all about
iteration. One person sees something from one point of view, the next sees it
from another. As each person adds their improvements you get a much better
final product - you wouldn't be changing it if you didn't see something wrong
with it.

By the same token, I totally accept when the things I've spent hours pouring
over get thrown out the door. We recently had a design review where someone
said one of the elements I put hours into looked like a 3 year old had drawn
it (they didn't know it was done by me, they thought it was outsourced). It
was the kind of style I was going for, but that reaction made me realise it
totally wasn't suitable for the site. I was a little hurt of-course, made a
joke about it and brushed it off. We now have a completely new version of this
page that's way better than my original vision.

Wrong response: “You fucking trimmed my copy.” “I don’t want to get mad but I
sat there for FIVE HOURS crafting that yesterday, there’s a reason for every
word.”

Right response: “I see you changed my copy. What improvements were you trying
to make? I felt point x,y,z were important and you left them out. If you were
trying to make it shorter, here's a shorter version that includes the more
important points.“

~~~
astrodust
You know, I'll just go into the middle of your application and screw around
with some of it. Delete a feature I don't like even if it causes a few tests
to fail, tests I didn't even know you had.

I'll also add a few CSS rules that break things on other pages. Who knew you
were supposed to put those in particular files, or that you'd used those
selectors for other purposes.

Since I needed another database column, I added one to one of the central
tables, locking the database and breaking a batch job that couldn't recover
properly, leaving a messy clean-up job for you later.

Oh, and I also just copied over the patches and rebooted the server to makes
sure they were applied properly. Sorry about all the background processes that
didn't restart properly because of the hard boot.

 _That_ is what it feels like to a copywriter when you mess with their words.

~~~
crikli
No, that is what it feels like to a _primadonna_ when you mess with their
words. They conflate the quality of their work, a highly objective measure,
with breaking tests and screwing up a server, a distinctly objective measure.

No one's work is sacrosanct and without opportunity for improvement. So when
you're f-bombing someone because they altered your work, maybe stop to see if
your work just wasn't all that good to begin with and needed a boost.

~~~
bradleyland
This isn't about changing someone's work, it's about effective collaboration.
What's obvious to you may not be obvious to me. Whether it's an application or
copy for a homepage, there are subtleties that a reviewer will miss.

What makes a good application "great" isn't obvious. It's the little things
hidden in the details. Often, we don't even notice the details. That's what
makes great applications so difficult to replicate: you can't enumerate their
greatness in a bullet-point list.

Likewise with great copywriting. If you don't trust that every word your co-
founder wrote has importance, and that you should at least review with them
before making changes, then you didn't pick the right co-founder. It's ok to
work toward improvement, but that work shouldn't be performed unilaterally.

Finding it in yourself to trust those around you is a difficult trait to
acquire, but it's essential to strong team building.

~~~
crikli
"Likewise with great copywriting. If you don't trust that every word your co-
founder wrote has importance, and that you should at least review with them
before making changes, then you didn't pick the right co-founder. It's ok to
work toward improvement, but that work shouldn't be performed unilaterally."

Totally agree. The overarching issue here is cooperative communication.

------
nedwin
I read a bit of subtext into this.

If you've got 2.5 weeks to turn a hackathon project into a "company" to pitch
to investors, it could be that the underlying issue your cofounder has isn't
related to the copy.

It could be related to the fact you took 2 days off during the middle of your
sprint to get the project ready while she worked through.

But I could be completely off the mark.

~~~
ballooney
Thank you also for 'pitch to investors'. When you 'pitch investors' (like in
the blog post) you are presumably either, depending on your cultural reference
points,

1) Hurling them at a man who wants to hit them with a bat (a bubble metaphor?)

2) Tying them to the ground with guy-ropes so they don't get blown away (I
won't try and find a metaphor).

This is a trivial aside in the context of the article but it reads in such a
dissonant way, up there with 'could of'.

------
Androsynth
My first thought when I hear 'theres a reason for every word.': amateur.

Don't take yourself so seriously. Unless you've literally tested every word,
theres not a reason for every word. You are just flinging paint on a wall and
calling it art.

(side note: you're young, its not bad being called an amateur. It's a good
time for you to get rid of bad habits)

~~~
Confusion
Yeah. And the second thought is: hand it off for a second opinion earlier.
Writing copy is teamwork, except for experts at writing copy (exactly as
writing code is teamwork, requiring review by someone else and refactoring).

------
ars
Well? Finish the story!

What happened after that? Did you apologize and change it? Leave it?

How did she react afterward? How's your relationship now? Were you able to fix
things between the two of you?

I know the rest of your story doesn't really have anything to do with the
message you are giving, but I like my stories complete. :)

~~~
thetabyte
Well, it's only about a day old, but the conversation between him, her, and
the rest of us went well from there. We're working on v2 right now :) I don't
really think this is going to tear us apart--I was actually the cause of a
worse mishap a bit earlier, and that ended much better after clearer, and
apologetic communication. The point stands though, it is important that you
stay _considerate_ in situations like these, so they don't become something
that jeopardize your team dynamic. Jesse immediately responded in an
incredibly understanding and apologetic manner, and now we're working
_together_ to fix things, as we should!

-Jordan (1 of 5)

------
nottombrown
First reaction to the current site - There's too much copy.

It's good to know your strengths and to be willing to lean on the people that
you trust. It's bad to be a pushover.

Do you think she got mad because your change made the product less compelling
or because she felt it undermined her status?

~~~
aneth4
I agree. The copy needs trimming.

However, the article is right. If you delegate something to someone, you
should discuss with them before (or occasionally after) overriding their
decisions. If you do that too often, they may not be compatible with your
vision for that position, in which case you should find someone who is.

------
michaelpinto
Reading this made me feel sorry for the other co-founder: "The last two days,
while I’d been relaxing in the rivers and mountains of upstate NY, one of my
cofounders had been tirelessly building the landing page." This really means
that while this dude was goofing off for two days the other parter was doing
the real work. What's amazing to me is that this guy is so oblivious to
this...

~~~
Deestan
> This really means that while this dude was goofing off

How these people balance their work/life ratio is _really_ none of your
business, especially since you don't know any details.

~~~
michaelpinto
...actually he was very open (maybe too open) about the work/life ratio thing
and went into detail: That's what stood out to my eyes. You're right, it's not
my business -- but in his article he makes it my business by pointing it out.
But if I may be blunt this may also be a generational issue: In a startup you
don't get a star for just showing up (frankly that's an employee mindset),
what counts is what happens -- the results.

------
molecule
> Treat others the way you want to be treated

> It’s a saying I learned in Quaker school, but it applies to almost every
> situation.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule>

------
Blank_
When I went to university, there was a design class I had to take. He was
known to be pretty tough when critiquing people's work. In the first class one
of the things he told us was: "It's not personal, it's just business".

I find that it's generally helpful to keep this mindset. I try to keep in
mind, it's really the result of my work (the final product) they are
criticizing, it's not really me that they are trying to attack. Sure, I spent
nights on something, but in the end if it looks bad, it looks bad. I can
choose to feel hurt for a few seconds, over it, and make it better the next
time around.

~~~
capsule_toy
I would much rather the phrase be something like, "don't take it too
personally, we're all on the same team and even though I'm harsh, the goal is
to improve your work."

I know it doesn't roll off the tongue like "it's not personal, it's just
business," but the problem is most of the time when I hear that particular
phrase, I'm probably about to be screwed over in some way.

------
ChuckMcM
Always useful advice. If you delegate, then you delegate. That said, when
someone changes your work without telling you its always useful to go in
trying to learn. Both of you come away with a better understanding that way.

------
josephcooney
I disagree. If you're going to work as a team no-one can 'own' something
entirely. What if you spotted a typo? Would it be OK to change the copy then?
Everyone needs to be mature enough to trust that the other person wasn't being
malicious, and be prepared to talk about things that they don't disagree with.
And iterate. The words weren't carved onto a stone tablet and then launched
into space. They're on the internet and can be changed in a heartbeat.

~~~
kevinburke
Sure, but the OP's main problem was that he didn't communicate his opinions
back to the person who'd worked so long on the copy.

~~~
josephcooney
I don't think they should need to. You set up a situation where we can't touch
the home-page without consulting Mike, or we can't change that data access
code without talking to Sue about it. Do stuff. Make mistakes. Iterate.

~~~
jklp
I disagree. If your team is senior enough, I think it is very important to
give people delegated areas of responsibility. I've found people start to take
pride in their work when this happens, because they know the buck now stops at
them, and any outcome (positive or negative) is their own doing.

If you have everyone putting fingers in everyone else's work, why would you
want to spend a week working on something when you know someone could just
come in and undo it on a whim?

In saying that, it doesn't mean people shouldn't take feedback, though
eventually, you'll have to start trusting your team to make decisions for the
business. As a founder, you can't go around making every decision for your
company, it doesn't scale that way.

~~~
josephcooney
At a certain size, maybe, but for a 2-week seat-of-your-pants getting ready to
pitch to VCs sprint I don't think delegated areas of responsibility, or
exclusive ownership is warranted or healthy. I think if you go and stomp over
someone elses good work you need to be responsible for that, but I think you
need a team/organisation where you have that freedom. By the downvotes it
looks like I'm the odd one out here. Whatever.

------
dmor
I think your cofounder might be annoyed that you took two days off, came back
and changed the work they'd been diligently working on while you were gone...
and then wrote a blog post about it? Seriously. What have you actually learned
here... it should be more than "treat others the way you wish to be treated"
in my opinion.

------
qzio
If the modification this guy made actually made the copy WORSE, then the
reaction is completely understandable.

I think the problem is on how do you know what is actually best?

This is a problem for developers as well. "you refactored my code into some
unreadable crap" - "I made it more clear and DRY"

Lots of code (and copy) are highly subjective, like when to use a design
pattern or when/if to break the Single responsibility principle etc.

It's easier if you have a tight team that have worked together for a long time
and get a long fine. However, it's also good with different views in order to
actually get the _best_ solution in place.

How do you handle these kind of problems in a good constructive way?

------
nickjp
It probably wasn't a good idea to edit the copy without consulting others, but
I've dealt with situations where I've had to decide what to do with copy
that's long and rambling to the point of being unreadable. Something needs to
be done in those situations. When a website reads like a novel, it's time to
have a discussion, figure out what your users are there for, and determine
whether you might be failing to promptly fulfill those needs. There's nothing
wrong with providing ample information on a website, but it needs to be
organized in a way that delivers the right amount of the right information to
the right people. If you can't do that, you're probably delivering a mess of
an experience for the majority.

------
bootload
_"... It’s a saying I learned in Quaker school, but it applies to almost every
situation. I don’t want to be undermined, so I shouldn’t undermine anyone
else—consciously or unconsciously. ..."_

It's all about the goal. Be flexible. To get there someone has have
responsibility to make a final call. If it's technical, a right or wrong
answer can be made on merit.

For non-technical or subjective decision defer to founder(s) experience,
training or gut feel and back this decision up with _measurement_ and make
adjustments if needed.

------
skrebbel
genuinely curious: what the hell is a 'rising sophomore'?

~~~
roel_v
It's student-speak for 'finished freshman, will be sophomore coming next
fall'.

Yes it bugs me too, I guess that's a sign I'm officially an old grump now.

~~~
esrauch
It's a largely necessary phrase because "I'm a sophomore" is otherwise
ambiguous if you just finished your sophomore year or are just about to start
your sophomore year.

------
countessa
the whole thing could have been averted with a simple

"hey - great work so far - can I tweak a couple of things?"

instead, you now have a blog post (and HN thread) worth of analysis on
something that should have been very simple. OTOH, no publicity is bad
publicity, so it's all good in the end.

------
vertis
I love the concept of <http://mentor.im>, but I detest having Facebook as the
only mechanism with which mentors can signup.

I'll put it only list of projects to check back in on though.

~~~
thetabyte
Well, we still use social auth, but now it's LinkedIn :)

------
mikecane
Don't tell US HTF to WRITE and WE won't tell YOU HTF to CODE. Deal?

Reminds me of the movie Amadeus: "Too many notes."

------
citricsquid
communication.

