
Yogscast Kickstarter failure is a painful reminder of the risks of crowdfunding - smacktoward
http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/17/5912245/yogscast-kickstarter-failure-crowdfunding-risks
======
tinco
So 13.000 people risked $50, and they lost. This is a painful reminder? It's
just $50, it's no ones livelihood except the that of the Winterkewl people.
They thought they could do something, turns out they couldn't.

Why does this author take offense to the tone? Isn't it clear as day? The game
won't be made, so the backers won't get their reward. The studio did their
best, but it wasn't enough so now they're stopping. Yes the Kickstarter says
there should be a refund, but obviously the studio should have spend all of
their money by now. That refund clause is just to make sure companies don't go
taking money without being indebted to the backers if they fail. This one does
go bankrupt, so everything is in good order.

He says Yogscast and Winterkewl are to blame, what for? For attempting to do
something cool for their fans but failing? There's no shame in that.

~~~
beering
So you're saying that if I overpromise something and get a bunch of people to
give me money for it, I have an escape hatch to never repay the money? Then
it's appealing to start some BS kickstarters, never deliver, and never refund
the backers (and isn't that a problem already?).

Is Yogscast to blame? Sure - they misled people into paying for overhyped
vaporware by throwing their name on it. They also have the money to refund
people, and right now they're trying to hang on to their money as tightly as
they can.

~~~
arrrg
The escape hatch is either you going bankrupt and/or refunding people, sure.
Not much of an escape hatch, really. Also, if you endorse and support
something like this and it fails your reputation takes a hit.

I don't think it's a big deal when it comes to luxuries like that. Also, I
like kickstarter for supporting people who do cool stuff they can't finance
any other way. I really don't care if they fail or not too much since I don't
spend much money on it. (Hey, and for me personally it has always worked out
so far.)

~~~
sanderjd
Maybe we need a Kickstarter competitor that is a lot more clear in its
marketing that backing a project is a donation to people making something you
think is cool, with those people sending you something as thanks if they are
able to. I get so frustrated with the perception of Kickstarter as a pre-pay
store and Kickstarter's inability or unwillingness to change that perception.

------
Afforess
Caveat emptor.

A rule of thumb I learned from my parents long ago is when you see something
you want to have, wait two weeks. If you still want it in two weeks, and can
afford it, then buy it. I suspect a little bit of waiting and research would
have informed these backers to the potential disaster that was coming. I
remember this kickstarter and I thought it was a joke, but the fans don't want
to hear that.

~~~
jiggy2011
I think the problem with game related kickstarters is that a lot of the
backers are probably fairly young and have a poor understanding of the amount
of resources and risk involved in a project of this size. To an 18 year old
$0.5 mil sounds like a lot of money and it would seem like it should be
possible to make 3 games with that much but they don't understand how quickly
it can get swallowed up because they have limited experience with the business
world.

~~~
lotu
So they spent $50 dollars to learn a life lesson. Honestly, that much cheaper
than it could be. If the game designers were deliberately trying to exploit
this then there would be a problem.

------
moosehawk
Lewis from Yogscast had some responses on Reddit a couple days ago:

[http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2apng1/yogscast_cheat...](http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2apng1/yogscast_cheat_backers_for_567000_on/cixkr3u?context=1)

------
beering
I think this is ripe for a lawsuit if money is not refunded. You can name both
Yogscast and Winterkewl in the suit knowing that Yogscast has enough money to
pay damages. Yogscast would then try to get out of the suit, but it'd be
tricky for them to shed their responsibility in the matter (which apparently
they're trying very hard to do, according to the article).

~~~
belandrew
Kickstarter's terms are very clear that you may receive nothing in return for
your money, just like with other investments.

~~~
VikingCoder
A) It's not an investment.

And B) their terms don't say anything like what you said:

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of
their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
(This is what creators see before they launch.) This information can serve as
a basis for legal recourse if a creator doesn't fulfill their promises. We
hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they
feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project
and fulfill.

[https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics](https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics)

~~~
Cakez0r
If the company has burned through all their money though, it's kinda hard to
draw blood from a stone...

~~~
res0nat0r
Since they've setup an LLC apparently, the end developers won't be held
personally liable (and I don't think they shouldn't be), so if it comes to a
lawsuit and there isn't any cash left to refund, that will be the end of it.

------
AlyssaRowan
Eh, that's how it goes. Sometimes development pans out; sometimes, it falls
flat. With crowdfunding, we the people get to choose what things we want
instead of publishers - which does mean we take the risks in case it misses
the mark, and that is a very _real_ risk.

I backed this one myself; a little bit, basically to see what happened. I like
YOGS (back to when I played right alongside them on WoW, actually - small
world!). They're always looking for another fun platform to play/tell stories
with. The developer/s were inexperienced; although it wasn't quite clear just
_how_ green they were, I was aware that this one was looking a bit wobbly, as
I'd never heard of them, and I _was_ getting Molyneux vibes from the promises.

After I saw the alpha and beta, it was clear Winterkewl just couldn't deliver
the goods to anything resembling a reasonable quality, which is why Yogscast
didn't feel comfortable really going forward with it like that any more.

Pity about the lead dev's marriage. Isn't the first marriage killed by game
development; won't be the last. Obviously the studio is bankrupt (or to the
extent that it isn't, needs to refund).

Interesting to see Yogscast did at least get the source and assets out of the
ruins of this project (although they're not very _good_ assets, unless you
really want a dwarf beard simulator), and they seem to have some kind of
rescue plan with another studio. Let's see what happens.

I'm pretty sure no-one's swimming in half a million quids' worth of Jaffa
cakes out of this one - but that's development. Sometimes it goes like this
and goes nowhere. Sometimes (like Elite: Dangerous, which is turning out
_brilliant_ ) it goes to the stars.

I'm actually glad _we_ can choose to take these risks with crowdfunding. Just,
you know, remember it's not a pre-order.

------
whybroke
One of the more interesting things is that the demos were almost entirely just
the demo form a marching cubes package they bought on the Unity Asset store
for $100 [1]. Even down to the textures. The only additional feature were the
two rigged characters and a those few building meshes.

The creator of that package, formerly an enthusiastic developer of a cool
product, pulled his product from the asset store when yogcast's kickstarter
hit half a million and apparently abandoned game development entirely.

[1] [http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/introducing-voxelform-
voxel...](http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/introducing-voxelform-voxel-
terrain-marching-cubes-with-real-time-deformation.94224/)

~~~
shinykitten
I skimmed through that thread. For those interested, here are the salient
posts.

Where winterkewl finds the package:
[http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/introducing-voxelform-
voxel...](http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/introducing-voxelform-voxel-
terrain-marching-cubes-with-real-time-deformation.94224/page-6#post-823980)

Where the creator acknowledges that winterkewl is using the package for the
kickstarter campaign: [http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/introducing-voxelform-
voxel...](http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/introducing-voxelform-voxel-
terrain-marching-cubes-with-real-time-deformation.94224/page-7#post-893009)

Here is where the creator pulls the package:
[http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/introducing-voxelform-
voxel...](http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/introducing-voxelform-voxel-
terrain-marching-cubes-with-real-time-deformation.94224/page-7#post-928356)

------
TheMakeA
They should release the unfinished game and source code/assets to backers as a
sort of liquidation.

~~~
Blaaguuu
I'm a little surprised this hasn't become an accepted practice yet... Tons of
game developers fail to complete their projects for one reason or another, and
the open-source scene for PC games is practically non-existent (actual games,
not middle-ware). I wouldn't expect publishers to ever open-source unfinished
games, but for indies that don't need to protect their IP, it seems like it
would be a pretty great move to open-source your code and assets under a non-
commercial license, if you can't complete a relatively mature project.

It seems to me that it would be beneficial to everyone involved... but maybe I
am missing something.

~~~
brandoncapecci
It's because so often they leave it reluctantly, hoping to finish it sometime
in the future. I also think there's the gaming community in general has a
culture that puts ideas on a pedestal as this great commodity that's
inherently valuable.

------
steven2012
The failure of these Kickstarter projects is several orders of magnitude less
than what we will see when crowdfunding of startups hits full stride. It's a
snakeoil salesman's wet dream, to be able to sell a great idea, "fail" and say
"sorry, we tried". The only difference is that it will be 13,000 people losing
$50 as opposed to a handful of rich people losing $1M each.

------
BrainInAJar
Kickstarter is an interest free business loan with absolutely no obligation to
deliver or recourse if they do not. You'd have to be a damned fool to
Kickstart anything for-profit, and people Kickstarting things think you're an
idiot ripe for exploitation. If you want money to start a project take out a
loan or sell equity.

------
Glyptodon
I don't really have a problem with this. Kickstarter projects shouldn't lead
to backer entitlement. Campaigns are a risk that everyone can pitch in a
little for in the hopes of success. Pledge at an amount appropriate to risk
and you'll lose the bet here and there, but it's part of the game.

~~~
Cakez0r
Kickstarter need to create rules that protect the backers who can't reasonably
be expected to understand the risks. 1% of the project's funds could've paid
for an industry expert to take a look at their project plan and tell you they
are likely going to fail.

------
wangman
"The Yogscast's Yogventures was the first Kickstarter I ever saw that set off
alarm bells in my head" What? Was this also the first Kickstarter the article
author ever saw?

