

Newly minted MBA? It's the best job market in years - jackgavigan
http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20150227-bull-market-for-us-business-grads

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dccoolgai
The Circle of Life.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8ZnCT14nRc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8ZnCT14nRc)

I find this somewhat troubling. Trust an old-timer: When the circle comes
around to the point where it tips toward hiring MBAs again, it's time to sell
and take cover. A couple years after they destroy the economy again, you come
back in and buy. Not necessarily a bad thing - for everything there is a
season - just something to be aware of.

~~~
lgleason
This is probably why the Atlanta startup scene has taken off. If you look at
the area it is saturated with sales and MBA folks. They all beat their chest
about how great Atlanta is for tech and how it is emerging. But in reality it,
along with a lot of other traditionally non-tech towns are getting the
overflow from The Valley which is over-heated.

When that bubble pops many of these towns, MBA's etc. will be faced with tough
job prospects.

~~~
AJ007
Is there a city now without a 'tech' scene? From Milwaukee to San Juan -
incubators, co-working spaces, education initiatives, financial & tax
incentive programs, all proclaiming they will grow the entire local economy
out of whatever doldrums it sits in.

In terms of bubble, the low yields on junk debt globally are a really, really
big problem. An angel investment in a small startup that folds, or a VC
investment in an instant unicorn (term I saw on TC recently) that imploads,
your money goes to $0. Or maybe you lose 50%, 60% on a public tech company. On
debt, this will impact everything from the money markets holding business and
individual cash to the institutions, both public and private, that think
business is good because they depend on high risk low cost finance to perform
their day to day operations. 2015+ is very scary even for bears.

~~~
dataker
Indeed, even Detroit has a considerable startup scene:

[http://www.fastcompany.com/3014543/detroit-is-going-
bankrupt...](http://www.fastcompany.com/3014543/detroit-is-going-bankrupt-but-
its-tech-community-is-going-strong)

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phaemon
Usually I see the bbc.com message saying I'm blocked from the content because
I'm in the UK. This time it had:

"This site was created for the BBC’s International audience by BBC Worldwide.
Some elements including spelling and grammar may deviate from those found on
our UK sites. BBC Worldwide is a commercial company that is owned by the BBC
(and just the BBC). No money from the licence fee was used to create this
website. Instead this website is supported by advertising outside the UK. The
profits we make from it go back to BBC programme-makers to help fund great new
BBC programmes."

Is this a new thing to let UK folk see the content, presumably without the
ads?

~~~
samstave
There's your problem right there. If you had an MBA in BBC Studies, this
wouldn't be an issue -- unless you already have an MBA in BBC studies, but
received it a decade ago - then you just suck at timing.

At any rate, hurry up and graduate right now with an MBA in BBC Studies so
that you can capitalize on a high valuation in the current market with
synergistic timing for first to market strategies that optimize for and
leverage the BBC Studies MBA multi-billion dollar social niche! You'll make
the world a better place!

~~~
aswanson
Bingo. Now lets mix and match plug and play best of breed solutions within our
core competency for a win-win outcome.

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realusername
I don't think the employment rate of people graduating from MBAs is
interesting by itself. People doing MBAs usually are not in the category of
people who have difficulties finding jobs anyway. I would be more interested
on a statistic showing the difference in salary between the two groups since
I'm not fully convinced that it's worth it financially.

~~~
damoncali
If you're going to B school for the salary bump, you're doing it wrong.

~~~
bcoates
Serious question: why else would you go?

~~~
damoncali
It's far more holistic than a simple credential that will get you a pay bump.
Ten years after I graduated from B school, I've done significant amounts of
business with several classmates and juat started a company with another. I
married one of them, and made life long friends with many. I'm 100% positive
that I've just scratched the surface of what my MBA will give me in life -
much is still to come.

Contrary to the unfortunate opinions of many here on HN (I get it, I am a
former engineer), there are more good MBAs than bad ones. What I can say with
certainty, is that I have never spent time with a smarter, more motivated
group of people than I did in B school. That includes my time at NASA and
working at couple startups. It's a unique experience, and to me at least,
worth the cost _even with zero financial return._ But if you want to make more
after B school, it's easier. Not everyone chooses to.

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ThomPete
I don't believe this is due to optimism in the market, but simply an increase
in requirements for what it takes to be a candidate.

~~~
atom-morgan
Exactly. This is the higher education bubble in action.

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mathattack
There's a lot of people saying that MBAs are a sign of the top. Others are
saying all MBAs are evil. I think it's more nuanced. (Full disclosure, I'm a
CS undergrad with an MBA)

Some generalizations....

1 - MBAs tend to be risk averse.

2 - MBA career choices tend to be driven by who shows up to recruit at their
campuses.

3 - MBAs tend to be value capturers and maximizers rather than value creators.

4 - MBAs tend to have debt load and follow who pays cash. (This ties with #1)

Does this mean they are all evil? No. But you get what you pay for. A fancy
MBA won't create the next great thing, but could help the current great thing
be a little more predictable in hitting earnings.

For what it's worth, Amazon seems to like quantitative MBAs. Google seems to
like them with CS undergrads. Apple doesn't seem to care for them too much.
Does that make any a black and white model?

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littletimmy
An economy hiring too many MBAs is never a good sign. This bubble is about to
pop.

~~~
atom-morgan
Who do you think will take the blame for this bubble?

~~~
Balgair
1 of 3 things:

1) The drought. Though it's part of a longer term trend, the drought will be
the cause for everyone moving out. Expect memes about having a swimming pool
or watering your lawn back east.

2) Mortgage brokers again. Housing in the Bay is crazy right now, just as it
was in 2008. Expect them to be blamed once more.

3) Brogrammers. Idiot kids from B-list Ivys, Duke, or the like came out to the
Bay, were very bro-y (sexist, racist, drunk, foolish, etc) and killed the
golden goose with their bro-ness.

If the rest of the US really takes a hit, expect stuff about 'too big to save'
instead of 'too big to fail'. This is real bad and I hope it does not come to
that.

~~~
atom-morgan
You seem to be implying the higher education bubble is restricted to or
concentrated within the tech scene in California.

~~~
Balgair
Thats a much more complicated thing. I don't think the higher ed bubble will
pop quite as publicly as the Social-techy bubble will. Law schools serve a
better example for the pop and what it'll look like.

What I'm saying is that the techy-Social bubble's blame may fall on the
brogrammers as an emblem of a larger and more complex problem.

Suffice to say though, I think most people on HN these days are competent
enough to know there is a bubble and the end is not 5 years out, but less than
2

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kyllo
Amazon is hungry for MBAs, so getting one might be a good idea--if you want to
work for Amazon in a non-technical role.

~~~
ExceptioNullMan
Amazon was eager. I'd highlight the non-technical role bit.

Anecdotal but heres my story regarding them: Recruiter was very excited to fly
me to Seattle. I attribute the MBA to that(CS Undergrad). Unfortunately I find
a common stigma attached to the MBA for technical roles. During my Technical
Program Management interview none of the interviewers had a business degree.
PhD in cs, and an MIS, but I didn't connect much with 2/4 of the interviewers.
'So you don't want to be a developer anymore' was one of the opening comments
I received. To address this i'm currently working on an intermediate step
(title=founder?) to further distance myself from pure dev and thinking about
PMP & Marketing certifications to help downplay the 10 years work experience
developing.

On the other side of the coin, they say that Amazon hires only one out of
every 5 candidates, my sample size of 1 is too small, and I cant claim I aced
every conversation.

~~~
ryandrake
I think it's more of a tech company culture thing, not specific to Amazon.
I've been to interviews where the interviewers were genuinely bewildered that
I left a coding-only career to do a full-time MBA program.

The degree (even from a top school) doesn't really seem to help out here in
the Bay Area (maybe Seattle too, I've never been there). The banks and
consultancy firms would rather you had a finance or consulting background, and
won't hire you unless you're fresh out of MBA school. The tech companies
either can't get over their anti-MBA stigma (as if merely getting the degree
makes you suddenly forget math/engineering fundamentals) or just assume you
went back to school because you were a bad coder.

Most tech companies seem to have a "Chinese wall" between the tech side and
the business side, and there aren't many roles out there with the opportunity
to overlap. Unless you want to do a start-up, where everyone wears many hats,
but I like to be able to pay my mortgage and eat.

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michaelochurch
I would guess that MBA school has a similar bimodal (or, at least, bimodal-
ish) outcome distribution as law school.

If you go to a top-5 MBA school, the opportunities are ridiculous. I know
plenty of unimpressive people making $500,000 or more straight out of MBA
school. But it needs to be a top school, and there are a lot of factors (e.g.
work experience) that are socioeconomic rather than merit-based.

Top MBA schools are basically a 2-year networking event. I know a couple
economics professors (at top MBA schools) who refuse to teach MBA students
because they're sick of having the students demand of the Dean that they
reschedule exams and classes to accommodate their leisure travel, and having
the students win.

Most MBAs don't get the ridiculous, unearned compensation bump that merits two
years off and an expensive degree, though. If you make $500k with no skills
whatsoever, then you can probably pay it off. If your next gig comes in at
$75k, that isn't bad by most peoples' standards, but it'll make it hard to pay
off the student loans.

~~~
krschultz
The statistics from Harvard do not back you up:

[http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/data/Pages/detailed-
charts.asp...](http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/data/Pages/detailed-charts.aspx)

10 years down the line the spread between having an MBA and not will be
significant, but right after MBA school very few people (10%?) have a starting
salary of even $200k. I'm sure there is a guy that came out and made $500k,
but it's not anyone outside of the top 10% within the the best program in the
country.

I'm considering getting an MBA (I am currently a senior software engineer,
previously have been a mechanical engineer). I know that for myself
personally, an MBA would definitely be a financial setback over the next 3
years. Long term, 10+ years out, it would be a big gain. I'm considering doing
it, but the cost is turning me off a bit.

As another anecdote, the best "business" guy I know from my graduating class
(in fact, the valedictorian from a class of 5000 people) is also considering
an MBA. He is in the same boat that I am - the salaries for most people upon
MBA graduation are lower than our current salaries. So what's the point? Yet
10 years from now, not having an MBA will be a liability, because other people
with MBA's attribute their success to them and are skeptical of those without.

~~~
ryandrake
I'd like to see stats on salaries 10 years out, MINUS the folks who went into
consulting or banking. If you get your MBA and make it into those industries,
you're going to see fantastic year-over-year salary/bonus growth. If you, say,
go back to a tech company and do marketing or finance, you're not going to see
those huge gains, and a top school may not be worth it financially--basically
you'd be doing the degree for the career change and not for a salary
rocketship.

~~~
krschultz
I saw a few of your comments in this thread and I'm really interested in
hearing more about your experience with the MBA. Do you have time for an
email? My address is my hn handle @ gmail.

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TazeTSchnitzel
...is it bad I read that as "newly-minted MacBook Air" until looking at the
article and realising it was the other "MBA"?

