
I Am the Cheapest Bastard in Indie Games - grawprog
https://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2019/08/i-am-cheapest-bastard-in-indie-games.html?m=1
======
codesushi42
Here is what the critics don't get.

You are game devs. You are Jeff's peers. You are not representative of his
customer base.

Did it ever occur to the critics that Jeff's customers may not actually value
the quality of artwork in his games all that much? At least not as much as the
storytelling.

Even more importantly is staying consistent with what fans expect. It is
called "branding", geniuses. If Jeff all of a sudden released a game with an
artsy fartsy style, he'd be gambling his future. He might end up alienating
his existing customer base by not giving them what they've come to expect, and
his experiment may not work for acquiring new customers.

I am sick of armchair critics. Jeff has been doing this for a long time, and
longer than all of these know-it-alls. Your opinions mean nothing. His
repeated success does.

~~~
adnzzzzZ
If you go up to a bunch of people doing a craft and you show yourself
displaying extremely poor technique and care for the craft itself, those
craftsmen will disrespect you, and they will be right. As an indie developer
it's kind of tiring to hear all these developers constantly praising
mediocrity and showing no will to improve their craftsmanship as long as
they're able to make a living. You can also make a living and be extremely
skilled and care about constantly improving, it's not an either/or situation.

~~~
shkkmo
> displaying extremely poor technique and care for the craft itself

That is a pretty presumptuous thing to say about someone who has made a life
making games which are loved by his fans. What's the skin off your back that
this guy has different priorities for what he likes in games than you do? Why
is it ok for games to lack a good story but not ok for them to lack good art?

~~~
adnzzzzZ
Anyone with any aesthetic sense can point out how his games are lacking
visually, so it's not that presumptuous at all. The effects of his game's poor
art on his ability to run a business are another matter altogether that I
personally don't care about.

As for priorities, people can have different priorities, but there are a few
basics that in my opinion anyone can improve at with minimal effort as long as
they try. Developing an aesthetic sense for what works together on a screen
and what doesn't is one of those things. It's clear this guy hasn't bothered
with this and in my view that makes him a mediocre game developer, which is a
kind of developer that I will not look up to if I want to improve.

>Why is it ok for games to lack a good story but not ok for them to lack good
art?

This can be a very long discussion but art is the one thing that is
immediately visible to anyone. In some ways it's the most important aspect of
a game. I don't have the same views on code that I have on art, for instance.
With code you can get away with very poor practices and you can be very
pragmatic about it because bad code is not nearly as visible as bad art.

~~~
loxs
As someone who lacks aesthetic sense for what works together on a screen but
is interested to improve, could you recommend how to do it with "minimal
effort" as you say?

~~~
adnzzzzZ
The best thing you can do is post images/gifs of what you're working on social
media (twitter, tumblr, reddit) and see how many likes/upvotes it gets. As you
post things you will be able to compare either to your past posts or to posts
of others on how well it does, and if something goes significantly above/below
average you can derive that it likely looks better/worse than whatever it's
being compared against.

~~~
loxs
In my case it's about CSS and WEB UI/UX, so it's a bit hard to do what you say
but the problem is still the same.

------
deogeo
Reposting my comment from the duplicate thread at
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20804401](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20804401):

In the previous thread, someone made a good point - his newer games, with more
resources spent on them, look worse than the old ones. Someone else applied
pixelization/palletization to the screenshot of his new game, and the degraded
quality made it look better:
[https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg)

Of course neither point is addressed, and he keeps pretending that the only
way to improve is to expend more resources.

As also pointed out in the previous discussion, that's because he simply
doesn't have an eye for art. He compares his game to the consistent-and-
pleasant-to-look-at Baba Is You, because he can't see the difference, and so
he doesn't even see there's a problem to be solved. We might as well try to
explain the difference between blue and red to a blind person. That's why he
can show a picture of dwarf fortress without realizing it looks better than
his game. Going for a Caves of Qud look would also probably save him money -
but he simply can't see that it looks better.

~~~
catern
Actually I think he engages with your point pretty well. You say:

>he simply doesn't have an eye for art

and

>he keeps pretending that the only way to improve is to expend more resources.

But he says:

>By the way, for people who asked me why I don't just learn to do better art
myself, this is why. To learn to do better art, I'd need to spend at least
6-12 months. (To think it takes less is insulting to artists.) I just don't
have the time to not be writing games.

It seems correct that for him to develop an eye for art, would require him to
expend resources.

How is he supposed to develop an eye for art? Listen to all the comments on
his posts? I don't think so, random internet comments are rarely a good source
of advice. Developing a taste for art that will actually improve his games
will take time and study and possibly even trial and error. And applying that
taste once it's developed will take even more time. And it seems totally
plausible to me that he can't afford to spend those resources.

His argument is very specific to his own situation. But it seems likely to be
correct about his own situation.

~~~
underwater
> To learn to do better art, I'd need to spend at least 6-12 months. (To think
> it takes less is insulting to artists.) I just don't have the time to not be
> writing games.

That's such a strawman. He doesn't need to be a top-tier artist. He just needs
to know enough to not suck at art. Diminishing returns means that he could
spend much less time than that.

~~~
wolfgke
> > To learn to do better art, I'd need to spend at least 6-12 months. (To
> think it takes less is insulting to artists.) I just don't have the time to
> not be writing games.

> That's such a strawman. He doesn't need to be a top-tier artist. He just
> needs to know enough to not suck at art. Diminishing returns means that he
> could spend much less time than that.

Becoming a top-tier artist takes _much_ longer even when the talent is there
(intuitively, I would say a decade). The 6-12 months of intensive learning
that Jeff Vogel claims seems to me a good estimate for the time that is
required not to suck at art.

~~~
tripzilch
I don't know. There is a serious amount of low hanging fruit available. If you
read this, you'll be better at design: (5 parts):
[https://www.andyrutledge.com/gestalt-principles-1-figure-
gro...](https://www.andyrutledge.com/gestalt-principles-1-figure-ground-
relationship.html)

It won't take 6-12 months. Maybe an hour?

------
Lazare
Meh.

The most cogent criticism of the original post, I think, was that he was
conflating _cheap_ art with _bad_ art. You can (and some indies do) have very
cheap lo-fi art that still looks good in context. He does not, which is fine,
because it is hard.

His response to the critics was basically to double down on conflating cheap
and bad. Which is a bit odd! How many times can you include a screenshot of a
game with cheap, minimal (or even zero!) art that people still think looks
good, and complain that people like how those games but not yours, and not
realise that maybe there's something that sets them apart?

Again, it's not the _quality_ of the art, it's the overall aesthetic, and that
does not require buying more art, buying better art, or learning to do better
art personally. Angband and ADOM are lovely games that do not have a pixel of
art (or didn't originally, at any rate; I guess there's tilesets now or
something?), and I'd a dozen times rather stare at ADOM than at one of Vogel's
games.

That being said, he's still ultimately right. He is a one man shop, he has an
established fan base, he's turning a profit, he's doing fine. He's quite right
that hiring an artist (or maybe more relevantly, an art director) to try and
fix the art problem is an unreasonable gamble. So...just stand up and own it.
They're ugly games, the end. He's been very successful; he doesn't _need_ to
defend himself.

Some devs make very pretty games with terrible story and gameplay, and _that
's fine_. They don't need to post rambling defences about how their game is
really just like Dwarf Fortress if you just squint hard enough. Not every game
has to be good at everything!

~~~
jstummbillig
> he most cogent criticism of the original post, I think, was that he was
> conflating cheap art with bad art. You can (and some indies do) have very
> cheap lo-fi art that still looks good in context. He does not, which is
> fine, because it is hard.

 _You_ are conflating lo-fi art with cheap and/or bad lo-fi art. "Cheap lo-fi
art that looks good" is not a thing, because the talent that can make
something lo-fi also look good and, more importantly, provide good art
direction for an extensive project is not cheap.

We are not talking a screen full of pixels or two. These games would require
thousands upon thousands of art tiles, that all aim for a distinguishable,
consistent and unique in overall style.

As you said, it's hard. That makes it expensive, in either time or money, or
both.

~~~
_chris_
> "Cheap lo-fi art that looks good" is not a thing

Dwarf Fortress was literally an exhibit in MOMA; it can look downright
beautiful, despite being nothing but ASCII letters in different shades of
colors:

[https://www.moma.org/media/W1siZiIsIjI1NTc0MSJdLFsicCIsImNvb...](https://www.moma.org/media/W1siZiIsIjI1NTc0MSJdLFsicCIsImNvbnZlcnQiLCItcmVzaXplIDIwMDB4MjAwMFx1MDAzZSJdXQ.jpg?sha=8787fea73e43f715)

------
Sophistifunk
You guys it's OK for some guy to make ugly games, and for other people you
don't know to buy them, right?

He's happy, his wife is happy, his customers are happy, his rent gets paid.

So why is everybody trying to sprout off about how they have the solution to a
"problem" he doesn't have?

~~~
Pfhreak
I think because most people dramatically underestimate the complexity of
making games and overestimate the sales of games.

It's easy to say, "Just hire an artist" without understanding the complexities
in finding that artist, negotiating a contract, ensuring they are delivering
to your expectations, tracking their progress, ensuring they meet your
creative vision, and recouping the money in sales to actually pay them.

~~~
thomasmeeks
Yep, for all it’s business know-how HN just doesn’t understand this one. He’s
making games for people that value story and world building above all else.
He’s making a relative pittance doing so — seemingly much less than a full
time gig at a faang company.

He’s presumably happy, his customers are presumably happy, yet we insist on
giving him obvious advice about a 25 year old venture. It’s honestly hilarious
to see the immense amount of time collectively wasted armchairing over it!

~~~
Tehdasi
"Yep, for all it’s business know-how HN just doesn’t understand this one." TBF
his argument comes down to 'putting money into the company is too risky',
which does go against the method of startups which is to pour huge amounts of
into a company and take huge risks. Less poor know-how, more of failure to
conceive of other ways of doing business.

~~~
JamesFM
I don't think there is a hockey stick to chase in game development. At least
not the way Jeff is doing it.

------
manfredo
I think the core issue is that people don't have a good grasp on the amount of
money it takes to develop games, and the paltry amount of money that niche
titles rake in. Take computer wargames and flight sims, for example.

Hardcore wargames (e.g. Combat mission, Graviteam tactics, Grigsby's War in
the *, etc.) are a very niche market. Even popular ones make a fraction of the
sales that more popular titles bring in. Thus, it's not uncommon for the
developers of these games to be 2-3 man shops, or even one-person companies.

The consequence is that these games either have to cut down on quality or jack
up prices. Why do modules in DCS often cost $60-$70 for just one plane?
Because the small numbers of sales means that they will need to have a higher
revenue per sale to break even. Why do so many wargames use 2d counters and
hex grids? Because 3d art is expensive, and they need to keep costs low.

Some people bring up color palette, and that this dev just doesn't have a good
eye for art. Maybe that's the case, but the fundamental market principles
still apply. He could spend money to hire an artist or spend time improving
his art skills, but resources do not permit it.

~~~
markus_zhang
Exactly. That's the reason I'm highly tolerant about high price for a wargame.
Games like TOAW probably don't sell many because it's too tough to play for
the ordinary people.

------
_the_inflator
Bad news are good news, so kudos to Jeff to riding this wave.

There are no ugly games, only markets. People should listen closely to him as
he gives very sound advice. I read nobody in here stating: "Well I am also 25
years successfully in the business and here is my experience switching from
ugly to artsy games." So why bother?

Jeff is right when he says that he focusses only on the buyers and not on the
haters. Haters drive the bad news, which is good news for Jeff. He will never
be ignored nor forgotten.

Rock on, Jeff!

~~~
ptah
exactly, there is a difference between the "right" way and the "way that
works"

~~~
dwild
> exactly, there is a difference between the "right" way and the "way that
> works"

His post wasn't about the way that works, it was about the "only way that
works".

If that was a post about how he made games, I would have made an amazing
comment on it, congratulating him on working so hard, most probably saying how
I wouldn't have though there was so much works behind the scene, even more so
on new engine on such an old looking games, etc...

It wasn't that kind of post though... it was a post that said that art doesn't
matter, that you just can't make it works (even though there so many games
that does it).

He just don't want to make it works. It's fine, it's not different than me
that am a simple employee.

~~~
vidarh
You must have read different posts than me, because it didn't at all say that
art doesn't matter. It says _his_ customer base, in _his_ niche isn't
particularly sensitive to graphics, and that when _he_ has tried improving it,
he didn't get a return on investment.

------
ac29
> Many who are unfamiliar with this industry are surprised to find that
> artists are some of the highest paid people. Good, reliable artists are
> rare! Check out this site [https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/games-
> artist/salary/](https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/games-
> artist/salary/), for salary estimates.

> [snip]

> If I'm lucky enough to find a good person, with bonuses and benefits and so
> on, I might be able to get this person for $150000-180000.

His link seems to suggest that "top" (90th percentile) game artists make
$62k/year. Lets round up the extra costs to the employer (payroll tax, health
insurance, retirement benefits, etc) and call that $75k/year. If so, that
suggests $150k would be nearly 2 full time years of a top-tier artist.

I love Jeff's games and have bought and played many of them going back nearly
2 decades. But, I'm not convinced that the next step up from status quo is 2
fulltime years of a top tier artist. According to the same site, a median
artist is $51k/year (with benefits/etc, lets say $65k/yr). Would hiring that
person for a full year justify that extra $25k over his current $40k budget? I
think so.

~~~
austhrow743
I also found his full time employee cost argument weakened by his
requirements. He's happy with $25/hr contractors from countries with weaker
salaries than the US, speaks highly of them, but on the topic of hiring
someone full time he uses a premium American employee living in Seattle as his
example? Says he'd want to work with them in person despite wanting to work
alone? What?

If dude just said "hiring one of my contractors full time would cost me
$40k/year and i don't want to pay that" it'd be a reasonable argument. Instead
he makes up all these unnecessary requirements that sound like they'd actually
make the arrangement worse for him, and points to them as why he can't do it.

~~~
rjf72
The difference is in the magnitude of work. When contracting he's going
piecemeal which gives him substantial oversight on each and every piece to
ensure it turns out the way he wants. For a full time artist, this would be
micromanaging and isn't really conducive to a great working relationship. Add
in remoting and it gets even weirder. What are you going to do, mail them
every hour for updates?

~~~
austhrow743
>substantial oversight on each and every piece to ensure it turns out the way
he wants.

The goal is to avoid this. Him having to do art direction at the moment is a
necessity due to relying on a variety of ever changing contractors. He doesn't
seem to view it as a strength noting that it would take more time than he's
willing to put in to get good at it.

Neither of his articles need be written if this just boils down to him not
wanting his art to change because he thinks he's doing a bang up job.

>for a full time artist, this would be micromanaging and isn't really
conducive to a great working relationship.

For anyone, artist or not, it would be hell. My last two employers were
owner/managers of businesses with ~20 employees and it was enough to make me
think "never again". Working every day in a tiny office with just the two
business owners, neither of which apparently understand what I do? Just put a
bullet in me now. He absolutely should not hire someone to work full time in
person, even if he suddenly decided his absurd $140k/year employee idea is
worth it, simply because it would lead to terrible work and micromanagement.

>Add in remoting and it gets even weirder. What are you going to do, mail them
every hour for updates?

No, you're going to leave them largely alone.

------
polk
Here's a mockup of the game with improved lighting. Top is edited, bottom is
actual screenshot:
[https://twitter.com/RavenmoreArt/status/1164447066300588033](https://twitter.com/RavenmoreArt/status/1164447066300588033)

The claim that changes like these take 12 months to learn and $11.0000 to
implement, is incompetent at best or dishonest at worst.

~~~
acd10j
I could be one of naive “art-blind”.But I cannot decide which ones are better,
and for me both look same.

------
markus_zhang
I think there are a few lessons that we can look into if we want to be indie
developers:

1) Need to be "cheap", i.e. to save a lot for daily spending and others, and
definitely try to get as many free stuffs as possible. Because whence we go
indie, we have to pay our own insurances and benefits.

2) Try to find a niche market, best if it doesn't require expensive
investment. E.g. flight simulation is also a niche market, but we definitely
need a LOT of investment to make it work. For Jeff's games it is tile-map
(easy to replicate and make new maps for), small size and interesting story
and game system.

3) Stay WITHIN comfortable zone but evaluate our situation every year. If we
can stay in comfortable zone and make easy money, why not? Players pick an
easy table in poker if they are professional. They don't play for fame or
excitement, but for monetary reasons ONLY. Indie gaming is one area that are
pretty sticky and our users usually don't go away unless we make bad games, so
evaluation once per year should be good enough.

4) Like any other business, better know something before diving into. Jeff is
lucky. He started early and had the talent. Most people are not that lucky so
some industry experience would be appreciated.

~~~
rjf72
The easiest solution of all is simply to live in a place where the dollar goes
a lot further, which is like 95% of the rest of the world.

I don't really understand why more people don't go this route. It confuses me
to see things like people living in places like Seattle/San Francisco when
it's not strictly necessary. The amenities and interesting folks you find in
these cities are not unique to these cities. The only things that seem very
unique to them, in my experience, are the rather high salaries which,
consequently, leads to an extremely high local cost of living as everything
inflates in price in response to the salaries. Makes it a reasonable decision
if you're drawing on these salaries, but if you're not...?

~~~
markus_zhang
Moving to other cities might be difficult if one has a family. But generally
speaking I agree that there are other places that are cheaper and still have
access to a lot of talents.

------
phjesusthatguy3
Wow, yeah, I read his previous blogpost, and I read the HN
overmisunderstanding reaction to that, and I know I already agree with his
followup.

I'm not going to play one of his ugly games, because I'm not his target
audience, but I might buy one just to support him.

~~~
zimpenfish
> I'm not going to play one of his ugly games, because I'm not his target
> audience, but I might buy one just to support him.

I've bought a whole bunch of them to support him - I don't mind the graphics
but RPG just isn't my thing.

------
bitwize
I think I've found a secret -- One Weird Trick that will allow you to bring an
artist aboard your game project for the bargain basement price of $0. The
secret is this:

Learn to draw.

It's a lot of work, and it's not for everyone. But I taught myself the basics
of art so that I could have art for my game projects. It may not be the
greatest art in the world, but it _will_ accurately reflect my vision.

That said, I also find resources like OpenGameArt terrific -- as inspiration.
If I want to create, say, a tile set for a particular scene, I might go look
up someone else's tile set, and then create a similar one from scratch.

------
umvi
Ok, but Celeste isn't free except the prototype game jam version. I've spent
well over $50 buying copies of Celeste for friends and family as gifts.

~~~
Pfhreak
Celeste is free this week (or maybe next week) on the Epic Games Store. From
the customer's perspective, his point stands -- I can choose to play nothing
but award winning, excellent games for between $0 and $10/month. How does a
game developer compete when their audience already has a glut of excellent
content to consume?

~~~
kranner
This assumes different games are perfectly interchangeable. Would you make the
same argument about books? Why does anyone bother to write a new book at all?
My answer is that we're really all different: devs and players both. A game
developer can compete the same way an author competes: by offering something
only they can make, and only to someone who would buy precisely that sort of
game.

~~~
Pfhreak
To a degree. I don't know the authoring world, but my intuition is that it's a
similarly difficult profession to make a living in -- returns are thin,
breakout success is unlikely, but you can probably carve out a niche for
yourself.

Same with TV/Movies. I watch what Netflix and Prime have, and generally don't
buy a series or movie (unless it's something really special.)

Are they perfectly interchangeable? No, of course not. I'm sure there's a
musician/author/tv show out there that would be my most favorite of all time
and I'll never know it because I won't be exposed to it. I don't get hung up
on that, and enjoy that I have a lot of pretty good options at any given time.

------
jayd16
These two blog posts have only shown that Jeff is unwilling to make a game
with good art (and that's fine). The posts are more about convincing himself
that that's ok.

I don't think there's much general learning to be gained here other than maybe
some budget numbers if you've never thought to price it out. As Jeff admits,
the competition makes the art budget work. Its really just a production
decision on what you're looking to make and what expertise you have access to.

~~~
zimpenfish
> The posts are more about convincing himself that that's ok.

I really don't think they are - people have ragged on the graphics for at
least a decade and he's stuck by his guns (profitably, for 25 years!) These
posts are about promoting the new game - he knows how to play the internet
outrage machine for marketing.

------
kalado
It makes me unreasonably mad that he includes a screenshot of the beautiful
looking game undertale with the implication that his games look is even
remotely in the same ballpark.

~~~
radeklew
In the last post it was Baba is You, now Undertale, Celeste, Dwarf Fortress...
I think this is a big reason why his posts are so polarizing, some people
agree with his premise and are willing to overlook the insulting comparisons,
while others take them as a sign that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

It feels like there are two separate discussions happening, some people saying
that there are beautiful games with next to no art budget and that the author
should adopt some basic principles of design, with the other camp focussing on
the fact that game devs shouldn't be expected to become artists.

Obviously both camps are right and the author is right in basically saying
"I'm fine with my games being ugly, they're still successful despite being
ugly..." but then he goes and follows that up with "... just like all indie
games,"

------
overgard
So I understand what he's saying and it makes sense for him: he's got a style
and an audience and there's a lot of risk to try to change up what he's doing.

That being said..

What he's saying works for _him_. If you don't have an audience yet, and you
don't really know what numbers your game is going to pull in, it makes sense
to focus on having a more coherent art style. And the thing is, I think you
could do the same style games he does with much better art without it costing
much more, you just need an art style that isn't, for lack of better way of
putting it, pseudo-photographic (I don't want to say "realistic" because it's
obviously not going for that, but, there's no specific "style" to what he has
other than "smaller versions of real things"). I think if you were to do a
much simpler/more cartoony style, with an emphasis on choosing a nice color
palette and nice lighting, you could actually make something nice looking
without breaking out the bank. (Again not saying that's what _he_ should do,
he has something that works, just that I'm doubtful that "make games that look
like they're from 1995 shareware" is a viable strategy to follow).

------
stuaxo
The inconsistencies really stand out.

Getting the first artist to lay down an art bible, with colours, sizes etc
means the next one can work to the same style.

Just setting some limitations, at the start of the game, like a colour palette
etc would make it easier for him as worked.

~~~
sha666sum
He also uses free assets, like those from OpenGameArt, which don't follow any
specific palette.

------
markus_zhang
I pretty much agree with what he said in this post.

Small business is tough and you have to purchase insurance and benefit for
yourself, plus store some money to brace for winters. Many of my friends own
small business due to their immigrant status, but few of them succeed.

The bottom line is, he actually does not need to explain anything to outsiders
if he wants. But his posts are very helpful for newbies in indie so I
appreciate what he says. Plus I like his games and purchased each one of them
except Queen's Wish.

I'm also a cheap bastard and only buy on deep discount (66%+ off)...

------
StyloW
This kinda reminds me of Howard Roark in The Fountainhead; people will hate
but you keep doing your own thing because it's your passion, so as long as you
can make a living off it, why change? Especially the idea that "he could be
making a lot more money so why doesn't he?", sounds so freakishly greedy. I
don't know any of his games, but I kinda feel like checking them out for the
sole reason that this guy seems to have life figured out in his own way, so
kudos to him.

------
bluedino
Does an artist really cost $150000?

What about a contractor for 3-6 months?

~~~
austhrow743
You could easily spend that on any profession if you want to.

You can get good artists for far cheaper if you want though. He even says so
in his posts. He's always praising his contractors and he pays them $25/hr.

~~~
bscphil
He could hire that contractor to work for him full time for two years for only
$100k, so I'm pretty skeptical that the price he gives truly reflects the cost
of a minor art upgrade.

------
turbinerneiter
I wonder if it would be possible to "skin" the games. Allow for artists to
reskin your game with "better" art. Let them put a price-tag on it and see how
many of the people who dislike the art will be convinced that way.

It seems to me that for indie game devs, you will always have games driven by
what the developer is good at. Great artist, great looking game, great writer,
well written game and so on.

~~~
RGamma
I was gonna say this as well. The videogame community has several
fantastically talented people in it, creating /tons/ of stuff as a hobby.

Just look at all the mods and assets available on e.g. Steam marketplace or
Mod DB, some of them entire games like Black Mesa: Source or Enderal. There
already exist reskins of videogames (like the various Minecraft texture mods)
and graphical improvement mods (like GTA V's "NaturalVision Remastered") some
of which is done without any sort of official API.

(One would probably call this
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_labor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_labor),
but I strongly dislike the term due to its association with big$ milking
fans.)

Given some thought about a general framework for this the ability to reskin
might be a nice thing to have.

------
zerr
> I don't have that much cash on hand. Nowhere near.

After watching his recent very interesting GDC talk* - he mentioned high six-
figures income ($800K+). I guess he spends a lot :)

EDIT: *
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs)

~~~
bscphil
Do you have a link? Assuming he is being honest in this article I have to
assume he misspoke in the talk - surely "high five figures" is a more accurate
summary of what's in the post.

~~~
maccard
Link:
[https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs?t=2594](https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs?t=2594)

Looks like a very specific number to misspeak in the talk. It's in the slides.

------
Sniffnoy
Non-mobile link: [https://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2019/08/i-am-cheapest-
bastar...](https://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2019/08/i-am-cheapest-bastard-in-
indie-games.html)

------
chj
I don't think his games look that bad as he claimed. Not eye candy, but
functional enough. All the time and resources saved from polishing the
graphics, he must have spent on improving the game playing. Sounds like a good
trade off.

~~~
wst_
They are terrible in motion. My opinion, though, mind it.

------
grawprog
This is a response to the responses to this article:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20765521](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20765521)

Posted a few days ago.

~~~
duskwuff
Is it really a response, though? It feels like a repeat of the same article --
down to many of the same filler images.

~~~
grawprog
Fair point honestly, it seemed worth posting for continuity though.

------
thomasfromcdnjs
He should brainstorm ideas around how is fan base could submit art suggestions
for free.

------
forrestthewoods
Jeff is a legend and a hero for staying in business as long as he has.

------
pvaldes
Better walls than nethack, moria and slashem ascii ports

------
Causality1
>But I can write well. I make good settings and stories, my spelling and
grammar are ok, I make addicting game systems, and my systems and stories
blend really well. THAT is the product I sell.

If that's true and he's good at those things, then why doesn't the product
sell well enough to hire people to make the next game not look like a game
design student's homework assignment?

~~~
scarejunba
Maybe he's saying that adding good art won't make his games sell better. In
that case it would just be cost without gain.

~~~
effarig
I personally have not bought Vogel's games based solely on their amateur
visual appearance, and given the fact that he's never put out a "good-looking"
game, how does he even know how it would affect sales?

~~~
sangnoir
> how does he even know how it would affect sales?

He doesn't _know_ \- but he feels he does not need to take the risk to find
out because the stakes are too high for him (since he'll need to borrow from a
bank or his retirement savings).

I'm sure those who feel strongly about the potential on HN, reddit and
elsewhere could band together and crowdfund/formally pitch Jeff on an
investment in an artist for a subsequent game and capture the upside while
shouldering the risk - he probably would be happy to take the money; he's not
ready to put up _his_.

~~~
zapzupnz
> He doesn't know - but he feels he does not need to take the risk to find out
> because the stakes are too high for him (since he'll need to borrow from a
> bank or his retirement savings).

Then _that_ should have been the main crux of his argument, without the need
to start making up questionable numbers and making comparisons with other
titles; particularly when it's an open letter on a subject nobody really
seemed to care about prior to the previous article.

It seems his audience, his customerbase, is so extraordinarily specific that
the letter would really have been better addressed to his fans and nobody
else; instead, the two posts come off as unsolicited whining which I believe
is what is rubbing people the wrong way.

~~~
sgift
> instead, the two posts come off as unsolicited whining which I believe is
> what is rubbing people the wrong way.

They are sound business advice from someone who knows what he talks about
(because he has had a successful business for a long time). Far better than
the usual "hey, I'm a unicorn startup and obviously I will change the world"
which will then implode a few weeks or month later, when their "revolutionary"
idea and/or business opportunity turns out to be useless.

~~~
zapzupnz
He's had a _small_ successful business for a long time, though, with an
extremely limited audience and no intent to widen it with a view to
potentially much better profits. I'm not sure I'd call it "sound business
advice" unless one's business intent is to barely float above water.

~~~
CathedralBorrow
You speak as if you know his business a lot better than a couple of blog posts
can convey. What's the basis for your business advice?

~~~
zapzupnz
I'm not claiming to provide business advice. The source of my understanding of
the articles, and the business described therein, is the same as the basis for
absolutely anybody else's extrapolation, both in his defence and against: the
articles themselves.

It seems to me that if, in 25 years, this guy is quibbling over whether he has
the money or not to improve the look of his assets, something repeatedly said
not to necessarily have any cost at all, whilst other small indie development
teams (even those with only one or two people) manage to make breakthrough
hits that reach as wide as possible an audience _and_ look good, sometimes on
multiple platforms including console, there's plenty to say that perhaps any
business advice one could extrapolate is not the gold standard that his
defenders are holding it up to be.

