
South Carolina officials won't evacuate prison ahead of hurricane - petethomas
http://thestate.com/news/state/south-carolina/article218179005.html
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salawat
See, this is the type of thing that really shows people's true colors.

"But they're inmates! They shouldn't have committed the crime!"

They're humans. Incarcerated at your will. You have responsibility for them.
They can't do anything about it.

"But criminals!"

No cruel and unusual punishment. You sentenced them to incarceration. Not
death by natural disaster. If it's bad enough for an official mandate to
leave, it's bad enough to figure out the logistics.

I love it when the real world suddenly faces trolley problems. Makes me feel
all warm and fuzzy.

Philosophy: what happens when "that'll never happen" happens anyway.

But hey, you do you South Carolina. Just don't complain if things end up going
badly, and your State ends up host to one of the most gruesome corrections
system mishaps and constitutional rights violations of our Nation's history.

~~~
usepgp
But thats the thing, its _not_ bad enough for an office mandate of evacuation.
Even the recommendation was lifted today.

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usepgp
> "In the past, it’s been safer to leave them there."

from wikipedia: "Ridgeland Correctional Institution is a state prison for men
located in Ridgeland, Jasper County"

> "During a Tuesday press conference, McMaster lifted the evacuation order for
> Jasper County."

sounds like they aren't doing anything wrong?

Edit: just took a look at a topo map, it appears that the prison is ~10 feet
higher than the surrounding land, so should be significantly more immune to
flooding than a standard residence.
[https://imgur.com/a/x2SDcuX](https://imgur.com/a/x2SDcuX) (excuse the
JPEGging)

~~~
stochastic_monk
> We know the evacuation order I’m issuing will be inconvenient,” McMaster
> said during the evacuation press conference. “But we’re not going to gamble
> with the lives of the people of South Carolina. Not a one.”

Sounds to me like they’re just avoiding inconvenience. A spokesman for the
prison doesn’t necessarily have the inmates’ best wishes at heart.

~~~
usepgp
It says that McMaster lifted the evacuation order for the county the prison is
located in today. That was the second quote in my comment.

~~~
stochastic_monk
Seemingly in response to their refusal.

------
jmathai
Ethics aside, how do you evacuate 1,000 inmates? I assume you'd have to bus
them to another facility which had room for them. Seems challenging any way
you look at it.

~~~
cptaj
Its just 6 buses or so. This isn't challenging at all for government
logistics. Heck, its peanuts for campaign event logistics.

I really don't see any excuse. And even if it WAS somehow challenging, tough
shit, man. The state is responsible for them whether they like it or not.

Even if you had limited resources, you have to save the inmates before saving
the rest. That or open the gates and let them fend for themselves. But as long
as they're your prisoner, you're responsible.

~~~
tathougies
I mostly agree with you. However,

> Even if you had limited resources, you have to save the inmates before
> saving the rest.

This is a real stretch. While the state needs to exercise due care, being
convicted does not entitle you to rights that the regular citizenry of the
state and employees do not have. In fact, constitutionally-speaking, it's the
exact opposite.

~~~
notafraudster
Constitutionally speaking, inmates enjoy the exact same rights as anyone else
unless specifically limited; and there also exist a variety of statutory ways
in which inmates are entitled to certain things the general populace are not
(most notably medical care and housing, which are not generally entitlements
to citizens or non-citizen residents of the country.)

I have no idea if there is a reason to believe that South Carolina should save
inmates first (or last, or...) in a natural disaster.

~~~
tathougies
The constitution does not grant rights. The entitlements you mentioned are not
rights, they are the bare minimum necessary to not violate the constitutional
requirement that prisoners not be subject to cruel and unusual punishments,
which is one of the few rights guaranteed to those convicted of a crime.
Americans are constitutionally protected from the government inhibiting their
right to free speech, liberty, etc, but the government only has to abide by
this if those Americans have not been convicted of a crime. This is clearly
stated in the 14th amendment where it is pointed out the government can
infringe upon rights by due process of law. For example, criminals do not
enjoy the same protection from violations of their right to free speech.

Seeing as the other residents of the county are not being asked to evacuate,
it seems a real stretch to claim that the prisoners are being subject to cruel
and unusual punishment. The commenter above claimed prisoners ought to be
rescued first. However, that doesn't really seem necessary. They should be
treated at best like anyone else, because the main charge is that they not be
cruelly or unusually punished, and being treated the same in an emergency like
a non-prisoner is hardly cruel or unusual.

~~~
jackvalentine
> The commenter above claimed prisoners ought to be rescued first.

I think it's implied that they should be evacuated first _in the event
evacuation is needed_.

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alphabettsy
Hopefully it turns out better for them than the inmates during Katrina.

------
mpolichette
I'm not aware if this is a public or private prison... but does anyone know if
that would matter? Would a private prison be required to evacuate and do
whatever it takes to move the prisoners safely?

~~~
briandear
Are they actually unsafe now? Anyone see the blueprints of the prison? The
topo shows it 10 feet higher than surrounding land. A prison is probably the
safest place during a hurricane.

Assuming the inmates aren’t safe where they are is an especially big
assumption that deserves debate. But the knee-jerk response is that they are
all in severe danger based on no facts other than a hurricane might be heading
in that direction. Risk assessment isn’t easily translated in puerile news
articles designed to rile people up. If it weren’t for the fact the governor
is Republican, and it wasn’t election season, this would be a non-story:
nowhere in the story did it discuss the structure or placement of the prison,
nor the risk assessment matrix used to determine safety.

Rikers Island wasn’t evacuated during Sandy and that wasn’t some controversy
except for an article in Mother Jones while Republican governor Christie
evacuated relevant New Jersey prisons. Was Cuomo held to account for failing
to evacuate Rikers which was in the direct path of the storm — and an island
at that? In the end, didn’t Rikers survive just fine? Perhaps the people in
charge of these decisions might actually know what they are doing? With the
exception of Ray Nagin and the one-step-from-a-nervous-breakdown Gov. Blanco,
states typically do a pretty good job with these sorts of decisions; certainly
a better job than the armchair experts and journalists that have limited
experience in these sorts of challenges.

These debates are fine, but let’s not discount the motivations behind these
sorts of stories.

And I also wonder what merits this story on Hacker News. It doesn’t follow the
guidelines at all unless I missed some startup or tech or esoteric item of
interest to our community.

