
Ask HN: How do you avoid staying too late at work? - fulldecent
How do you avoid the urge to stay later at work than you should be staying?
======
cscharenberg
If you are talking about being overburdened by too much work, here's my
thoughts:

I prioritize. I get as much as I can done in my usual 40 hours, maybe 50.
Anything left undone apparently wasn't high enough priority, so gets dropped.
I either delegate it or ignore it.

I used to put in long hours and scramble to do lots of extra work. My company
pays me for 40 hours a week, so they get the highest value work I can do for
those 40 hours.

If you're not using discretion and simply ignoring some things, you're not
working effectively, you're being an automaton with no judgement. There's a
lot of low-value things people request you to do or be involved in at work.
You have to blow some of it off or you're wasting your own potential and time.

\-- Don't anybody read into this I'm some kind of time-guarding jerk at work.
This is my general mindset, but being practical and adaptable is important, as
is being sure your manager agrees with your assessment of priorities.

------
chudi
You get up at the time your contract says and you go to home.

Its a matter of expectations, if you usually stay late, people will expect
that you will be there. Its like if your boss gives you 10 things to do and
you accomplish all of them, the next time it will give you 12 things to do,
then if you stay late working on those things and you deliver the next time
your boss will give you 14 things, because he is measuring your throughput of
work

The solution is simple, just stand up and leave and talk to your boss about
the amount of work so he can hire someone to help you or delegates the work to
other person.

~~~
libertymcateer
> You get up at the time your contract says and you go to home.

Are you American?

The vast majority of the American workforce is "at will." There is no
contract.

> he solution is simple, just stand up and leave and talk to your boss about
> the amount of work so he can hire someone to help you or delegates the work
> to other person.

This is exceedingly dangerous. You are telling people to go to their bosses
and say "hire someone to do the job you hired me to do."

Source: practicing attorney.

~~~
chudi
I'm not from USA.

I don't understand why is it dangerous, can't you say that in the USA to your
employer? It's just asking for help because you're overwhelmed with your job.

~~~
libertymcateer
> I don't understand why is it dangerous,

Because you may get fired. Before this devolves into a philosophical argument,
I am not saying this is right, or that there aren't many valuable employees
and skill sets who are less at risk of this sort of termination, or that there
are many good and valuable ways to negotiate these things with your boss. But
the advice of simply stating you get up from your desk to leave at the end of
your contract time _is_ dangerous. This is highly context dependent.

Communication is good. Put in the effort, go the extra mile _and_ tell your
boss your are overwhelmed. Don't just get up and go home at the stroke of
[5:00] or [6:00] or whenever it is.

Disclaimer: this is in no way a legal opinion and I am not your lawyer. If you
need a lawyer, get a lawyer, especially if you have an employment related
dispute. Further, I am not advocating a harsh managerial style - I am not
advocating anything, except to not unnecessarily risk your jobs.

------
wilsonfiifi
Get married and start a family. Seriously when you become a husband/father (or
wife/mother) your priorities will (should) shift to your new dependents. It's
not only about the money anymore, quality time becomes just as important.

In lieu of that, just start an activity that demands your time and is as (if
not more) important to you as work such as coaching a kids team, helping out
at the YMCA or YWCA, etc...

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itamarst
When you hit the point of saying "if I just work _one more hour_ I'll solve
this", remind yourself that working long hours is counter-productive. And
remind yourself of all the times you came in to work in the morning and
figured out the impossible problem from the day before in just 5 minutes.

(Long version: [https://codewithoutrules.com/2016/02/24/go-home-
already/](https://codewithoutrules.com/2016/02/24/go-home-already/))

------
corymayfield
It's all about managing expectations. If your boss gives you a task and
budgets 5 days to it, then do it within the 5 days. If you know up front that
there is not enough time budgeted for it, then raise that. Your manager will
like you better for it. If you finish early that's good, get started on your
next task or learn something but don't tell anyone. Better yet, if it is a
repetitive task figure out how to make that task more efficient. If you are a
programmer - write a script, if you are a lawyer/accountant - develop a pre-
filled template, etc. Doing this will set expectations from your boss, manager
of what you can and can't achieve in the timeframe given, and whether more
resources are needed. I can't speak for Americans, but Australia has a
contract for specific hours - around 37.5 hours in a week is the government
standard. To that end we can be upfront with managers/bosses about
expectations and resources and usually it is dealt with.

Source: ScrumMaster and developer

~~~
arvinsim
> If you finish early that's good, get started on your next task or learn
> something but don't tell anyone.

Why? Is this because it will raise expectations?

~~~
sverhagen
I wish upon everyone a working relationship where honesty has more value, for
all involved, than "don't tell anyone" tactics.

------
tixocloud
Realize that sometimes taking a break and going home actually helps you solve
problems better.

Understand that you can never ever finish work. Work will always be there and
we should not define how successful we are by how much work we do.

~~~
zer00eyz
How many problems have you solved at home in the shower while shampooing your
hair?

I do all my best work in there and I can't even bill for it.

~~~
tonyarkles
I have occasionally billed for time spent in the bathtub. I didn't go into the
tub expecting to be paid for it, but once in a while I have a eureka moment,
get out, write down a solution to a long standing/hard problem, bill a half
hour for it, and go back to the tub.

It's rare, and I only bill it when it was genuinely valuable, but it's not
totally out of the question!

~~~
sverhagen
This sounds like some kind of contracting relationship. I have a regular
daytime job, but contract in my own time, and I find that that is a much
better construction for me to weigh putting in more time, getting paid, versus
taking my rest (or whatever you want to do when not working). That might not
work as well for others, though. My day job, at fixed pay, excites me a lot,
which is a reason to put in too much time. I have no over-demanding managers,
forcing me to stay late, like others may have. So, here's at least three
powers that may make someone stay late, each with its own countermeasures, all
very dependent on that individual or their situation. I'll repeat them:
excitement/involvement, money (hourly rates), and scare of being fired.

~~~
tixocloud
At the end of the day, it comes from one's own motivations and I do feel your
sentiments regarding the 3 powers you mentioned.

1\. Excitement/involvement is tough to manage but at the end of the day, if
you're burned out, the excitement dies down. At least that's what happened to
me. And as mentioned, there are times when I didn't think of how to solve a
problem that the solution came to me.

2\. I had to overcome the obstacle of money and the fear of being fired. In
the past, it used to affect me greatly but I've learned how to deal with it
over the years through chanting (meditation), philosophy and other activities.

------
tedmiston
If you want to leave at a consistent time, one technique is to make a fixed-
time commitment after work, eg, schedule the gym from 6-6:30 M-F. Then stick
to this consistently and make it clear to those you work with.

------
cprayingmantis
Never set the expectation that you'll work any more than 8 hours. If you're
learning something and feel like you need to put in more then go home learn
where you're comfortable. Alternatively find an employer that values you. I
made the mistake once of working over consistently. I was stuck at a place
that I was working 14-16 hours a day (Come in at 5AM leave at 9PM), just to
get the work assigned to me done. I found another employer that valued me and
my time.

------
kazinator
Here is one way:

"OK, enough of the office; I'm going to go home and work from there. Beat
traffic, get home before dark."

But then not actually end up working from home.

------
anw
You didn't tell why you feel an "urge" to stay later at work.

My advice is to come into work early.

The tech field is especially lax in time. The majority of my jobs have been
10-6, where my current job is "come in sometime before 10 and 11".

The problem with this is you feel you now need to stay late into the night.
You came in at 10:30? Well, I guess it's understandable to be here until 7.
This is how paradigms eventually shift to allowing yourself to work until 8pm
or later, even if it means you've now worked a 10 hour day.

I agree with a few of the commenters here who talk about routine.

If you show others that you are coming in late, then they expect you to work
late.

If you show others that you are there before they are, then it's more
reasonable in their minds that you leave before they do.

If you continually show up early to work, then people will not even question
or think about it that you leave early (or on time).

------
TheCycoONE
Two things happened around the same time so I can't say for certain which had
the bigger impact. I was a habitual over worker. I would try to beat rush hour
on my drive in, and leave after it was over. Then, shortly after the birth of
my son, we gave up the second car and I started taking the train to work. Now
instead of waiting for traffic to die down, I have to get out right on time to
catch my train. When my boss tried to give me little jobs at the end of the
day i could say, "Sorry have to catch the train." Eventually my boss got use
to it and stopped trying to give me work just as I should be leaving - leaving
me emails for the morning instead, and balance is much improved.

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marssaxman
I don't. When that urge comes up, I indulge it, because it means I'm in a flow
state and I'm getting a lot done. But eventually I'll get hungry, or finish
mining out that particular vein of opportunity; then the work will stop
feeling so compelling, and I'll leave.

The rest of the time, I leave work at a reasonable time because I have lots of
other things I want to do with my life, and if I spent all evening at work I
wouldn't get to pursue them.

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madamelic
I get up and walk out the door.

If they want to fire me for working 8 - 8.5 hours, have fun with that because
I don't want to take part in being overworked. My productivity goes way down
after a while so there is no point in me grinding.

Humans have a limited capacity for everything and need to recharge. Even if
you love the work, you need to take a break, eat, sleep, etc.

------
fratlas
My commute time inflates by 30-50% (and no seats!) if I don't leave AT 5. My
manager knows this. I tried leaving 5:30 a few times, the 2-3 hour trips made
my weeks hell. Previous jobs I just walked out the door, at a startup too.

------
fulldecent
Thanks everyone and this is great advice. Most of the thoughts here are about
standing up to a manager.

In my case I am the manager. A big part of my urge to stay is I feel I do not
want to leave before employees. I arrive early and on schedule. But my staff
has flex time and they can get here whenever. So basically I am working a
shift and a half.

The sad reality is that people don't work nearly as hard when I am not around.
So that is the thing that is motivating me.

Also employees ask me these stupid questions at 5pm. Usually I really want to
answer because I feel my role is to help them under any circumstance.

~~~
tixocloud
I feel you. As a manager/leader, I feel the same way.

Here's how I would deal with the situation: You work as hard as you can and
support your team as much as you can. At some point, you'll need to build
their trust and respect such that they will be willing to work even when
you're not there.

You'll have to learn new ways to motivate your employees to work as hard. It's
about them learning how to let them take ownership/responsibility over tasks.

With regards to 5pm questions, that's the reality of managers/leaders. We're
there to support and assist as much as we can.

If they can feel that you're there for them, they will work for you. Sometimes
it might take you bending your back for their needs. Talk about non-work
related stuff. Figure out what motivates them and makes them excited and help
them get to where they want to be.

Some people may never feel motivated to work beyond what their tasked to do
and that's ok. You do what you can but at the same time, know that you can't
change everyone. People have to want to change themselves. You're just there
to guide.

------
krapp
I have a low paying, tedious, non-technical job, so I have no such urge. I
work to pay the bills, I write code on the side because I enjoy it and now and
then make some money.

Life is too short to care more about making someone else rich than you should.

------
taprun
I have interests outside of work that I enjoy.

------
wayn3
if i had such an urge id book a therapist at 5pm every day until the urge went
away, if only because the habit to leave the office was formed by having to
see the therapist

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sevensor
I have small children. Often, they need to be picked up from where they are.
Not infrequently, I do another hour of work on the laptop after bedtime, but
that too is limited my awareness that one or the other of my kids is likely to
wake me up in the middle of the night and I'll be useless the next day if I
don't go to sleep soon.

------
thebigspacefuck
Girlfriend and/or dog

------
ddmf
I'm contracted for 39 hours and work at most 40 hours - to be honest I'm
usually brain dead every night after work, and mindlessly indulge in tv until
I fall asleep at 10pm ready to start the day anew.

------
1123581321
We scheduled family dinner at 5:15 and then I told all my coworkers about it.
They think it's cute and appreciate that I'm not staying later than them
anymore.

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nichj
Is there a way? My boss uses me as a driver, so I am here early and sometimes
am not off until 7:00. The no overtime is great!

~~~
oddlyaromatic
Either your boss is paying you legally or not. If not being paid legally, why
do you not feel you can advocate for yourself, or find a different job? You
may have reasons, I'm just curious. You should not have to drive your boss
around for free. Or work more than 40h a week without overtime pay, unless
your position is exempt from overtime.

------
ilaksh
I work from home so there is zero chance I will stay too late at another
location to work.

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m0llusk
Come in early and kick ass.

~~~
asasdsad
Umm, no. That defeats the purpose. The purchase is to work a reasonable amount
of hours, like 8.

~~~
m0llusk
A large percentage of the tech workers I have worked with get into the office
rarely by ten and often much later around noon. Then they "stay late" until
eight or ten or even midnight but when meals and breaks are accounted for they
barely put in eight hours of work. An alternative is to arrive at a more
traditional work start time and minimize time spent on meals and breaks. This
is not about spending more time working but rather about allocating time
carefully and densely in order to have a good chance of not staying late.

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fbonetti
Have a life outside of work

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fuckemem
I rarely have such urges

------
NTDF9
WFH

