
Toronto’s Tech Industry - salbowski
https://blog.brainstation.io/5-reasons-why-torontos-tech-industry-continues-to-soar/
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EnderMB
I think the BS is pretty much established from the comments, so no point
adding to that.

Last year, I spent a week in Toronto and I absolutely loved it. During a tour
of the area, it was mentioned that the tech sector was growing, and that there
are loads of initiatives to get tech workers into the city.

There seems to be some decent opportunities in Toronto, but it falls at the
most basic hurdle. The salaries are too low, and the cost of property/rent is
too high. It's a lovely place, but the world is full of lovely places.

~~~
serverascode
I would say this comment is accurate. I just moved to Toronto. The cost of
housing is obnoxious and makes the overall cost of living extremely high, and
unfortunately salaries don't make up for it. There is no doubt about that. And
of course the traffic is horrible.

However, Toronto has everything Canada has to offer in terms of big city life.
It's got the hustle of a global big city. It's has amazing food and
entertainment. If you live in Canada and like big, global cities, then there's
not much choice.

~~~
joshlemer
Montreal breasts Toronto in quality of life by a huge margin in my opinion.

~~~
davidy123
I have to agree. Even if you don't speak French, there is less emphasis on
money wealth, more on everyday important factors, and the city just has more
history and is more relaxed without the money imperative injecting itself in
everything. And there is a decent, diverse tech scene too, though language
will be factor if you want to work locally.

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BenMorganIO
As a person who moved from Vancouver to Toronto, I really don't think this
post grasps what opportunities the rest of Canada, nevermind North America or
International, has available.

Toronto is expensive. I need to express that. Business operating costs will
always be lower of you compare another city to one that is often ranked
exceedingly expensive. Relative references are not appropriate since you don't
have a baseline. So, use a baseline of what the average operating cost is.

Toronto is HARD to get around. My morning commute is over 1 hour of driving at
5:40am - 6:50am with some variations depending on weekday, accidents, and time
of year. My shift starts at 10am. If I leave at 8am I would arrive at 10:30am
and be late for work. I hope this perspective shows how hard it is to get into
downtown Toronto and how bad their traffic is. (The office is located away
from the GO train and there's free parking in case people are wondering why I
drive instead of transit.)

Toronto is also a bit old in tech. When I came from Vancouver and went to
meetups, I felt like someone had rolled the clock back by two years. It was an
odd feeling. The community just felt... Behind. I think this comes from
businesses not giving as much time for developers to explore new technologies,
hence why there may be larger delays in new tech popping up in Toronto.

Businesses are... Conservative. Having worked in Vancouver and coming to
Toronto there was a cultural change that needed to be made. Businesses
operated with less focus on employee happiness and talent retention and more
on "talent results" (read: work or replaced) and transparency on 3x salary
ROI. Banks and conservative businesses practices are very much the norm in
Toronto. Very helpful for a business but to an employee, Toronto has a lot of
cons for workplace lifestyle.

If you live in Toronto, I recommend working remote with US companies. Or, if
you are inclined to do so, move to Vancouver or Calgary. Because of these
issues that Toronto presents, I have myself been planning on moving to Calgary
in a year or two.

~~~
Waterluvian
I have turned down two jobs because they were in Toronto. I don't want to
commute or move my family there. We need more remote work and more work in
other cities.

~~~
bungie4
I moved from Toronto decades ago. Since then I've rejected offers constantly
because, quite frankly, IMO, Toronto is a hole. I now find myself living north
of Toronto, with limited career options but much happier near the 'outdoors'
with my family.

Makes your choices, takes your chances.

~~~
lucidone
As someone from Northern Ontario who moved to SW Ontario for work as a
software dev - how did you do this? I'd love to move back home, but there are
very few jobs, and the ones that do exist are dramatically lower salaries with
outdated approaches (~45k, Visual Basic or C++98 vs ~80K, whatever web tech I
want). Do you work remotely?

~~~
bungie4
The trick is not look for work in a startup/dev environment, but in the
institutional and corporate environment. Their are jobs and the payscale you
desire, just not in the quantities you desire.

For instance, I was at my last position for 6 years. The last 3 of which, I
was actively looking for work. It took a while, but I'm making equiv to
Toronto wages in a new position.

But yes, the majority of postings are in the low rent payscale neighbourhood.
Which is weird, because you'd think to attract skilled talent away from T.O.,
the scale would in fact be higher.

~~~
lucidone
Cheers, when time time comes I'll bug whatever local hospitals, banks,
education institutions and admin centres exist.

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martinshen
By far the biggest problem in Toronto is that we do not have a deep startup
tech talent pool. They all leave for the SFBay.

Why? Startups here pay engineers 1/3 to half of what they'd make in the SFBay
while only being ~25% less expensive. In real terms, I've heard that a "Sr.
Engineer" is $75-85K CAD ($60K USD) where in at a typical SF startup (lower
than FAANGs) you'd look at $130-140K+ USD.

Startups that get excited about low wages are rarely $B rocket ships. This
makes the equity story difficult as there aren't employees who got rich from
joining an early stage company. AND, the startups that did succeed also gave
out less equity as it wasn't valued. Thus, a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Startups and large tech companies would get founded/move here if there's an
overflow of top tier talent. There's talent but not overflowing.

Good Solutions:

* Startups should pay more.

* Toronto should attract a FAANG or Uber/Lyft/Airbnb to build a serious office here.

* Employees should hop around more.

* Import talent through Canadian visas for foreign workers (which also takes advantage of more stringent US H1-B visas)

Crazy Solution: End the TN visa forcing a FAANG to open an office in Toronto.

Originally from Toronto, lived in SF and ran a VC-backed startup from
2011-2016 and moved home to Toronto in April to found a startup doing robotaxi
ops software. Plug: we're hiring.

~~~
serverascode
A previous poster made the point of not having a major top tier tech firm with
an HQ here as well. It's an interesting point I haven't thought of. I know MS
is building a new big office. Google is planning a pretty large build via
sidewalk labs. I need to do some research.

~~~
ankitml
MS is not creating a new office. They are moving their head quarters from
suburbs (Mississauga) to Downtown Toronto. They do plan to increase number of
jobs from previous location though.

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ajeet_dhaliwal
This is dishonest. I’d counter on almost every point. I’m speaking as someone
who lived there for over 10 years. I’m back living in London, UK, the
opportunity difference is a wide chasm. I’d like to be proven it’s really
changed since I’ve been away but I visit fairly regularly to see family and
don’t see it.

~~~
jonatron
I'd agree although I'm not up to date on the situation. I applied for a couple
of jobs in Toronto a couple of years ago. There seemed to be a lot of
competition for few jobs. Taking jobs out of the equation, rent in London was
flatlining, while Toronto was rising rapidly.

~~~
ajeet_dhaliwal
Right, I really want to believe it was true because with a young family now,
London is difficult. Canada’s space is alluring, but no I don’t see it with
respect to the economy and tech. Remote work or an online business would be
the better way to make it work there probably.

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jpatokal
_Though it sometimes seems like it, Toronto didn’t become a worldwide tech hub
overnight. In fact, it was a years-long process that led to Canada’s biggest
city being mentioned alongside tech markets like New York and Silicon Valley._

Yeah, I'm going to need a citation for that being a thing even now. London,
Berlin, Boston, Seattle, Los Angeles, Tel Aviv, Beijing, Singapore... but
Toronto? Srsly?

~~~
felixarba
Here's a link from an article I remember reading a few months ago that caught
me by surprise as well. [https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/07/24/toronto-best-
city-tec...](https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/07/24/toronto-best-city-tech-
jobs_a_23488711/)

~~~
davidy123
As a former Toronto person, I am certain there is an intentional behind the
scenes campaign to promote Toronto as a global destination. Some of the
articles I've run across have been quite breathless in describing features
that would be mundane in other places. Sure, it's a nice enough city, more or
less a New York wanna-be but with most of the growth extending back only a few
decades. It does not deserve to be compared alongside other cities with
extended history, geographical features, etc. It's clear many of the
publications that published these articles received a payoff, or an insider
had influence.

~~~
adetrest
You don't need to dig that deep. Brainstation sells bootcamps in downtown
Toronto. If they can show that working in tech in Toronto yields crazy
opportunities and salary, they'll get more people to buy their bootcamps.

If you look behind the stories and check on which company's blog or who wrote
these praises to Toronto, you'll see they all have something to sell from
people thinking that Toronto is the place to be. Usual incentives include:
difficulty hiring cheap talent, astroturfing for more VC money, selling a
Toronto-tech related product.

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LeonM
> Toronto is Well Positioned for AI and Blockchain Growth

Stopped reading here. When will this blockchain hype finally die?

~~~
rchaud
Brainstation is a web dev/data science bootcamp. This article is not written
to speak to you, it's written to market Brainstation as the reader's ticket to
a big $ career in Toronto.

Hundreds of people move to the city daily as job opportunities are not as
plentiful outside the Greater Toronto Area. These could be international
students, fresh college grads, people looking for a career change, etc.
They've heard of blockchain and AI just enough to worry that they'll be left
behind if they don't join "the tech industry".

So of course Brainstation will mention AI and Blockchain. These articles are
lead generations pieces for their training programs. For SEO keyword purposes
alone, they would have mentioned it.

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arcosdev
Toronto has serious housing, traffic, transit and salary problems. It is
heavily dependent upon real estate speculation to bolster it's economy and it
is quickly being picked a part by the province. This article is trash.

~~~
serverascode
I agree with everything you've said, and that first sentence is a killer, but
I don't quite get the "picked apart by the province" part. Could you expand on
that a bit?

~~~
BenMorganIO
Ontario PM Doug Ford is getting revenge on Toronto municpal government.
There's a little bad blood with his brother and them. A little is an
understatement.

Imagine 40 or so co-workers cheering behind your back that your brother died
of cancer. I hope this gives a good perspective as to how he may be feeling.

For the record, Rob Ford was a very bad man.

~~~
serverascode
Thanks. I agree, there is some kind of vendetta. However, messing with
Toronto's economy could have disastrous effects. I guess we'll see how it
plays out. :)

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johan_larson
This is nonsense. Toronto is a backwater in tech. There is no first-tier tech
company headquartered here. Heck, there isn't even a second-tier company. Plus
the pay is peanuts. That article is a PR plant at best.

~~~
jgh
Indeed. There's a dead reply to your comment that mentions eastern european
salaries being comparable. That might be a bit of an exaggeration but there
are outsource to Canada companies that, I think, are mainly in the KW area and
are not really that much more expensive than eastern europe (think like $90k
per head vs $70k per head)

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Micand
I moved to Toronto from Calgary four years ago to do my PhD at the UofT. I
love Toronto.

* Toronto has a legacy as one of the best places to do ML, and while it felt like it was losing momentum, the Vector Institute's opening has infused the academic community with incredible energy. Vector's been recruiting top researchers from around the world, but particularly from the US -- there are a number of new Vector members who've come from the Boston/Cambridge area. The academic community in Toronto will only become stronger over the next few years, given how hostile the US has become to students from abroad.

* The strength of the academic community is fuelling a burgeoning startup scene. While it's still early days, there are a number of accelerators associated with the UofT and other entities, so given the talent coming out of the academic system here, I think the community will grow rapidly.

* Quality of life is fantastic. The food and music scenes are world-class, stemming largely from how diverse Toronto is. Downtown Toronto feels like a mixture of Manhattan and Brooklyn, just on a smaller scale. I don't own a car, and only use the subway perhaps once a week -- everything is in easy walking distance.

As to downsides:

* We have a reasonably cold winter from November to March. It's far less harsh than Calgary, though.

* Rent is expensive and rising. I've lived in the downtown core for all four years on a grad student's salary, so it's possible to make it work. But finding accommodations seems only to be getting harder.

* The political interests of the city are often overwhelmed by the sprawling suburbs surrounding it that make up the Greater Toronto Area. The new provincial government seems to be intent on attacking Toronto at every opportunity.

I've had the privilege to travel around the U.S. and Europe quite a bit during
my PhD, and it's made me realize how well Toronto compares to the rest of the
world. I plan to settle here after graduating -- the tech scene here seems
like it's going to explode over the next decade, and it will be a lot of fun
to be part of it.

~~~
serverascode
I think it's easy to dismiss Toronto, but the quality of life items you listed
are absolutely correct, as far as I'm concerned. If only housing weren't so
expensive and we had a better transit system.

~~~
adetrest
Quality of life is low in Toronto IMHO. It's impossible to find a decent
apartment to rent for most: not necessarily because rents are crazy high
(2k/mo for a 1BR poorly built condo anyone?) but because landlords are so
picky that if you don't offer more than the asking rent include a personal
letter, and are luckier than the other 50 applicants, you'll never get a place
to live in. The city is also overly crowded and polluted. Traffic is beyond
ridiculous, cycling is a nightmare (most dangerous city to cycle in North
America). People here are obsessed with money and with living to work. There
aren't that many parks and green spaces but a lot of concrete, noise and
pollution. A significant number of employers demand that you incorporate so
they can "hire" you as a freelancer rather than an employee, and so that the
tax fallout of being reclassified as an employee is all on you (because you
incorporated.) Overtime is rampant, and most of my colleagues are happy to
oblige. Really, Toronto is not a nice place to live. It's an interesting
experience because of how diverse it is (I've never seen so many people from
so many countries, and I've lived abroad a lot!), but don't come here for
quality of life or to make a good living.

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parthdesai
I'll take all brainstation articles with a grain of salt. They are a bootcamp
school and thus they will want to promote Toronto's tech scene to attract
people who are not in tech to take their courses in order to switch their
careers.

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rexarex
Came to the comments first expecting to hear how it’s BS, and I wasn’t
disappointed :)

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stuxnet79
Another BS article. If you are a developer and have even an ounce of ambition
better to pack your bags and leave for the states. Leaving the city was the
best decision I ever made. I'd be willing to move back if the salaries are
double what they currently are. Toronto is just waay to expensive a city to
live in for someone in a modest salary and living in the surrounding suburbs
is a hellish experience if you expect to commute to downtown on a daily basis.
Not a fan of the urban design in the greater toronto area, sprawl as far as
the eyes can see.

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ttarabula
I both agree with the general sentiment of this piece and the backlash in the
comments against its overly optimistic view. My gut sense as a newcomer to
Toronto is that the _trajectory_ looks amazing, but there's simply no doubt
that any comparison to the tech super clusters like Bay Area and NYC is
totally disingenuous right now.

I'd love to get some advice from fellow tech migrants like myself that have
moved from one of those places (NYC in my case) to a less vibrant but still
honestly quite exciting environment like Toronto. Accepting a giant pay cut
while still tying myself to a corporate 9-5 here is a depressing thought, and
I'm not yet convinced that I feel right simply working remotely for US based
companies, even if compensation opportunity is on average 1.5-2x better. Has
anyone found a good balance between those worlds? Something that gives back to
the local tech ecosystem but also taps in to the the better market potential
to the south? I suppose building a business here and selling to the US, but
trying to stay headquartered in Toronto is one way to do that, but any other
thoughts?

~~~
adubz
I am in a similar situation, and settled on start-up life. AI here is strong,
and there are a fair number interesting companies built around it. Get into
one, and you’ll have a lot of freedom to guide the tech environment.
Compensation is still limited, but a decent exit can at least reduce the
bleed. It’s suboptimal, but I do appreciate how teachable my coworkers are.

~~~
ttarabula
That makes me feel better. Joining an AI startup is exactly what I ended up
doing, so it's good to have someone in a similar situation to end up with the
same answer!

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reasonablemann
Same as the speech they give you at university when you enroll. The world will
be your oyster when you finish. This is marketing and nothing else.

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purple_ducks
Safe to skip. Another empty puff piece from brainstation.io.

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Method-X
If Toronto doesn’t appeal to you, check out the Kitchener/Waterloo area (about
an hour from downtown Toronto). Been living here for 17 years and love it.
Very tech friendly and educated community.

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crimsonalucard
This is scary. People should read about what Canada did to the visual effects
industry with outsourcing. Big budget movies now purchase all their effects
from Canada because Canada decided to subsidize the industry. It's no joke.

Essentially if you live in Toronto and you're working for a company in SF you
are getting half the salary.

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kspaans
We've got a (mostly) Toronto-based (with worldwide representation too) Slack
community if you'd like to join:
[https://techmasters.chat/](https://techmasters.chat/)

We have many candid discussions about career opportunities and political
issues in the city.

Disclosure: I'm an admin there.

~~~
tixocloud
Thanks for sharing as I’m hoping to stay real close to to the tech scene in
Toronto from abroad

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kelvin0
This article makes me think of some people who are the only one laughing at
their own jokes at parties. If you have to tell me you're
funny/smart/successful you probably aren't.

This article is quite self-serving.

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crimsonalucard
I'm noticing that in SF, a ton of companies are outsourcing to Canada. Canada
already pretty much destroyed the vfx industry with outsourcing. I'm curious
what the future holds here.

~~~
rchaud
Advertising agencies have long been outsourcing work to Canadian companies.
The ad/media/comms industry is highly consolidated, where a few large
companies own a bunch of small agencies and move projects around. The
motivation is what you'd expect; lower costs, but same time zone, English-
speaking, familiar org culture.

Surprised there hasn't been more of it in the tech space as yet. I keep
hearing that the future of software dev is microservices, so if that allows
for more remote work where teams don't have to collaborate as closely, I could
see growth in development outsourcing.

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knodi
Pay increases are no where close to cost housing.

