
Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off - doctorshady
http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/12/01/503985473/uber-now-tracks-passengers-locations-even-after-theyre-dropped-off
======
yladiz
I saw this earlier and had hopes that the update would just let me choose
"While Using" in the app settings, like some other apps allow you even if they
request access even while not using the app, but the settings only allow for
"Always" or "Never" on iPhone. However, you can use Uber without allowing GPS,
so it's not all or nothing.

I'm a little disturbed that they need any information after I use Uber though.
They know where I was picked up and where I'm going, why do they need to know
where I'm at after I get dropped off? That's a little intrusive to me. The
proposed argument in the article, "Uber hopes to eliminate the most
frustrating part of the experience: the game of phone tag that both the rider
and driver play when trying to coordinate the pickup spot," is fine and I'd
accept that even though I'm extremely wary of apps that have access to my GPS
data while I'n not using the app because I can't see it in fine detail (as far
as I know you only can see that _some_ app is accessing your GPS currently,
not which one(s) exactly). However, Uber has no need for the data after I am
finished. I'm not a fan of being tracked in general, by governments or
otherwise, but for a private company to request data after I finish using
their services is intrusive and maybe this is conspiracy but I wouldn't be
surprised if this data is sent real time and it's possible to see where a user
is at any given time after they leave the car (during that 5 minute window).

I'm also curious how this will bump up against EU privacy laws. I'm in the
states and this may only be enabled for certain markets, but I wonder if this
would cause issues in EU if it's enabled there.

~~~
employee8000
Uber employee here. We were told the reason to track up to 5 mins after the
trip is for fraud, ex if a driver doesn't end the trip when she is supposed
to. and to figure out where the pick up spots for each address are. A large
building may have multiple points where people get picked up or dropped off
and knowing those points would be very useful for the drivers and riders.

And just as a side note, take it with a few grains of salt but I know it's not
easy to just trust a company with such personal information, and certainly I
wouldn't either, but Uber as a company is very ethical and takes the
responsibility that we are entrusted with very seriously.

There are a lot of things we do for our customers that isn't reported by the
news, but we always try to do the right thing. Ex. When we had a few outages
earlier this year, we made sure that the drivers who were active at the time
were "made whole" by paying them for the time we were down.

Yes, there were issues a few years ago with statements and actions that were
done, but the Uber today and the employees that work here now take a lot of
pride in what they do. I would never have worked here if I didn't feel Uber
was an ethical company. And neither would my coworkers. There are thousands of
engineers now working here and we would be the first ones who would stand up
to management if we felt that something nefarious or even careless was being
done with user's personal information. Many of the company values revolve
around "toe stepping" and "principled confrontation" and this means even
against our own management.

So I know it's not easy to believe, and it's easy for me to say since I work
here, but nothing nefarious is going on. If there was, we the engineers would
be against it completely.

~~~
kbart
_" Uber as a company is very ethical and takes the responsibility that we are
entrusted with very seriously."_

Probably every company has said that, yet we know how that usually turns out
sooner rather than later (I'm looking at you, WhatsApp).

 _" So I know it's not easy to believe, and it's easy for me to say since I
work here, but nothing nefarious is going on. If there was, we the engineers
would be against it completely."_

 _For now_. What if a new higher manager comes and decides to use this
information for other purposes (ad, sale etc.)? Some engineers might quit, but
costumers can't take their data back.

My takeaway is: do not trust companies with more data than necessary to
provide you a service and this is exactly such case.

~~~
dx034
Whatsapp was ethical, the problem is with the company that bought them. And
they didn't necessarily know that when they sold (even if, an offer of that
size is hard to decline).

~~~
newscracker
[Harsh words ahead]

Hindsight is 20/20, and based on that I personally would say WhatsApp was not
ethical even when it was a standalone company. If it had been so, it wouldn't
have allowed Facebook to acquire it in the first place! I realize this sounds
harsh and probably implies bad motives on the owners, but whatever WhatsApp
wrote in its blogs pre-acquisition were all principles that could be sold at
the right price. That's exactly what it has come to now that we know how it's
being used.

I would also consider it insulting to human intelligence if the WhatsApp
founders had truly believed that they would be able to continue with their
stated privacy stance after being bought by Facebook, of all companies (what
they wrote on the blog at that time can be seen as public posturing).

~~~
SixSigma
You don't need hindsight. You just need to look at the many many times it has
happened before.

Cash pressure + lots of valuable assets liquidised legally that just require a
change to ToS = said assets for sale + temporary bad PR.

------
boulos
A ha! This thread has reminded me to check whether Background App Refresh
might block this. Apple's iOS Developer Docs seem to strongly imply that's the
case [1]:

> Important: A user can explicitly disable background capabilities for any
> app. If a user disables Background App Refresh in the Settings app—either
> globally for all apps or for your app in particular—your app is prevented
> from using any location services in the background. You can determine
> whether your app can process location updates in the background by checking
> the value of the backgroundRefreshStatus property of the UIApplication
> class.

Time to go disable Background App Refresh for the Uber app and leave location
as "Always".

Edit: Yep! Disabled Background App Refresh and verified after a bit that the
little "Some app is using your location" icon went away. Spread the word (and
please Uber Engineering, don't try to stop us...)

[1]
[https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Us...](https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/LocationAwarenessPG/CoreLocation/CoreLocation.html)

~~~
newscracker
Thanks for this workaround, the description and the link. As disturbing as it
is that Uber is subjecting paying customers to such despicable treatment, I'm
glad to know that there is an easier workaround (for iOS users) than turning
on and off the location services permission before and after each ride to
control this!

I don't have Background Refresh on at all (for any apps) since I find it
draining the battery a lot for very little practical benefit for my usage.

------
amluto
I really wish that both Android and iOS had an option to outright prevent an
app from doing _anything_ in the background. No sensors, no location, no push
notifications, no network access, no CPU time, URL protocols, no nothing. If I
don't click the little app icon, the app shouldn't run, full stop.

~~~
berberous
I wish iOS forced all apps to offer "Always/While Using/Never" for location
info. It's bullshit that Uber can refuse to offer the middle choice.

~~~
uberq
A thousand times this.

------
electic
There is something very powerful you can do:

1\. Stop using uber. Delete it. There is Lyft and Juno (in select markets).

2\. Tell your friends about the dangers of using Uber.

You can make a profound change by voting with your pocket book. Lastly,
believe it or not, a lot of your friends look to you for tech advice. Be
vocal.

~~~
pjlegato
This is likely to work about as well as when a large number of tech people
went around telling all their friends that Microsoft was evil in the 90s and
early 2000s -- which is to say, not at all.

Empirically, very few people care much about their own privacy, and they seem
to be entirely uninterested in hearing sermons on the topic. It'd be great if
that worked, but it doesn't, so that won't solve this problem.

~~~
RodericDay
Windows, an OS, was not a commodity. Uber's service is.

------
mwexler
I despise apps that do "Always" or "Never" for Location Tracking. It's really
reflective of the larger issue of control of data, but this is particularly
galling when the app hasn't given you an option nor a good reason for "Always"
tracking. I'm always surprised when each iOS update continues _allowing the
app to define available choices_ instead of giving the consumer the "While
Using" option for any app requesting location.

~~~
robbiemitchell
Part of this is due to limitations in how iOS communicates this to users.
"Always" can refer to either (1) always-on GPS, or (2) Bluetooth, which will
ping app-owned beacons. The Bluetooth option is significantly narrower in
scope, but uses the same dialog as the GPS.

I worked for a company that relied on Bluebooth beacons to provide a critical
app experience (notifications before app itself is opened), so the app blocked
the login screen until the Bluetooth-driven "Always" location authorization
was granted. It was a headache explaining to users.

------
baumant
"Uber collects your location data from the time of trip request through five
minutes after the trip ends, including when the app is in the background."

From source listed in the article:
[https://help.uber.com/h/ba9dd342-158d-421f-a9ea-0e6c7aaad726](https://help.uber.com/h/ba9dd342-158d-421f-a9ea-0e6c7aaad726)

~~~
JumpCrisscross
Counting down to the FBI NSL'ing [1] Uber for persistent, warrantless
surveillance...

[1] [https://www.eff.org/issues/national-security-
letters](https://www.eff.org/issues/national-security-letters)

~~~
mahyarm
They don't need to, since they have the much better source of cell phone
carriers with 24/7 location. And google android OS and apple to a certain
extent.

~~~
mentat
Yes, people are like "oh NSL". Are they not paying attention to carrier
access, stingray, general SIGINT? Like really this is HN at its most
ridiculous.

------
ProfessorLayton
While their explanation is reasonable, I have little reason to trust a company
that settled an investigation specifically about _location tracking abuse_.

I've pretty much dropped their app and switched to their mobile site, which is
bound to my browser's location settings. Additionally I'll only use them if
they're significantly cheaper than lyft from now on.

~~~
deathanatos
> _While their explanation is reasonable_

Their explanation is illogical:

> _Previously, Uber only collected data from the user if the rider had the
> application open. Now, if a rider calls for an Uber and closes the app, Uber
> says it will continue to collect location data up until five minutes after
> the ride ends. That means Uber can see where you end up after you leave the
> car._

That's the change; the reasoning for this change?

> _Uber hopes to eliminate the most frustrating part of the experience: the
> game of phone tag that both the rider and driver play when trying to
> coordinate the pickup spot._

That, of course, doesn't occur in the five minutes after I get out of the car.
They of course mention more generically,

> _" We do this to improve pickups, drop-offs, customer service, and to
> enhance safety," Uber says on its website._

But that's not really enlightening … and not a convincing reason for having it
persist beyond the app being open.

~~~
joesb
> That, of course, doesn't occur in the five minutes after I get out of the
> car.

The logic is that it is likely that you will likely use Uber to go back as
well. And they can't track your actual pickup spot unless they keep the
tracking always on until you are picked up, which will be way more than 5
minutes.

------
greggman
> Uber hopes to eliminate the most frustrating part of the experience: the
> game of phone tag that both the rider and driver play when trying to
> coordinate the pickup spot.

This makes no sense to me. I tell them the pickup point so they don't need to
know where I am since I already told them where I want to be picked up.

Conversely I found it very frustrating they didn't (used to?) take destination
into account. Example: I want to go south. They should arguably prefer drivers
that are north of me. Instead I'm just guessing they just ping all drivers
within some range. Some of those drivers are south of me. In a city like SF
that can end up adding 5-10 minutes to the wait because they may have to go
3-6 long blocks around to get north of me so they can go south AND so they can
pick me up on the south bound side of the road.

It requires no GPS data from me to know that. It only requires that I enter
where I want to be picked up and where I want to go.

I suppose it's possible I'm waiting on the north bound side even if I want to
go south. Maybe they could ask "we'll pick you up on the south bound side.
Ok?" or something to that effect.

~~~
dcosson
I think there's a lot of variance between people, and it's largely a matter of
preference. Some people are happy to walk a block or two in order to make the
most efficient trip depending on where the driver is approaching from and
where they're going, and some people just want to plop it down and not think
about it and have the company/driver figure out how to come exactly to them
and figure out which way to go.

~~~
aithoughts
I always feel like an oddball for calling my driver to make it more convenient
for him (and faster for me) to pick me up. I usually Lyft line it though, so
it's just a time boost (price is the same either way).

------
buro9
For Uber and UberEats I now manually manage these in Android (which I do for a
few other apps I have lower trust for).

Which means I shut off all permissions between uses, and I block all
notifications.

I grant Location, only as needed to get a driver or place an order.

Once I'm in the car, I turn airplane mode on, deny all permissions and
notifications, and I reboot the phone.

Isn't it crazy that this is where we are now. Invasive tracking has become so
normal that I have to manage the access an app has in such a tightly
constrained way.

I'm starting to think a 2nd device that I leave turned off 99% of the time
would be an easier way to sandbox apps I don't trust.

~~~
skeptic2718
No taxis in your area? Maybe a central phone number you can call to hail one?
Why Uber and all this trouble?

~~~
SixSigma
My guess is because Uber is subsidising the ride and providing convenient bill
paying options.

------
uuilly
Yeah, after being a "dozen rides a week" Uber user for the last year, I
switched to Lyft. There is just no reason for this.

~~~
hvmonk
How do you know Lyft doesn't do that? Any blogpost, article would be helpful.
Thanks.

~~~
untog
You don't know until someone investigates, obviously. But if you have to
choose between an app that definitely does that and an app that might do it,
it makes sense to use the one that might in the meantime.

There's an opportunity for Lyft to be "Uber, but for not scummy business
practises" here, but I suppose most users don't really care. Austin would have
been a good test of that, but Lyft withdrew along with Uber.

~~~
joatmon-snoo
Lyft, sadly, doesn't seem to have the talent it needs to pull this off.
Although they're still worth something, it just doesn't seem like Lyft will be
able to eke it out unless something really game-changing happens to Uber.

I've been a longtime Lyft user because of the stories that surfaced a few
years ago about Uber considering blackmailing reporters and politicians with
their ride data, but the last time I had to use the app, Lyft for some reason
just wasn't working - their auth service seemed to be broken. I ended up
downloading Uber and signing up because I had to get somewhere in a hurry and
didn't have the time to look up another rideshare service. Their text
notifications about driver arrivals are also always off, on the order of up to
a minute or two (I don't know if Uber is better, but I would assume it is.)

FWIW, I'd also sunk something like $300 into Lyft rides just two weeks before
that for business travel, and I didn't experience a problem once.

~~~
jka
Lyft engineer here, so bear in mind any bias, but we take account and data
privacy very seriously, and have a data privacy team which focuses on these
kind of issues.

From where I stand, we have great engineering and product talent. Perception
is tricky - I see that we're very agile with (sometimes far) fewer resources,
from the view I have.

I'd be glad to dig into the auth issues you ran into if you're able to ping
privately with a few more details.

------
melvinmt
> Uber collects your location data from the time of trip request through five
> minutes after ends trip ends, including when the app is in the background.
> We do this to improve pickups, drop-offs, customer service, and to enhance
> safety.

Meh, sounds reasonable as long as they don't collect data outside this window
(although they should not make it all-or-nothing, a third option of "While in
use" would be better).

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
This is how the Overton Window shifts.

Trouble is, now I have to walk 5 minutes in the opposite direction before
turning around and meeting my dealer / going to the brothel / whatever you
don't want posted on paste bin.

Another issue arises when a "bug" records your location for 5 _hours_ instead
of 5 minutes.

~~~
cmontella
Yup, which is a strong possibility for Uber. I had an Uber charge me for a
ride that continued for 12 hours after I had been dropped off. Uber had no
problem billing me >$300 for this. If they don't have safeguards in place for
questionable fare collection, they surely don't have safeguards in place for
questionable data collection.

~~~
greggman
I'm not saying that didn't happen but it makes zero sense. The user chooses a
destination and the app tracks where the driver is so it's reasonable to
assume if the driver got within 100 meters of the destination the ride ended
within 1-2 minutes of that time. They should just pad by 1-2 minutes and then
assume the ride ended.

In fact they could make it the exception not to end it by sending a "How was
the ride" message to both driver and customer and they both have to pick "Not
finished" for it to continue.

------
forrestthewoods
I ranted about this last weekend. No app, positively no app, gets "always"
access to my location info. I don't care what their "privacy policy" says.

I'm annoyed Apple even allows this. It shouldn't even be an option.

Clearly iOS needs more fine tuned permissions. I can share my location with a
friend for an hour. I'd Uber wants 5 minutes worth then they should be granted
5 minutes worth. Not infinite and unlimited.

Uber used to work just fine with "while running" permission. They're removal
of that is extremely user hostile. I deleted the app and will use Lyft
instead. I suggest everyone do the same.

Waze also made a similar change. Waze also got deleted. We must not accept
this behavior.

~~~
redditmigrant
One thing iOS shouldn't allow is for apps to pick this all or nothing user
setting. Apps should be forced to deal with user changing the location setting
from always to only while using. If its an option in the OS , app developers,
especially big ones like Uber will build for that experience.

~~~
therec
Agreed! You should be able to give access to GPS only when running the app, I
really do not like the All or Nothing policy. After all, there is no
reasonable reason to justify the use of any phone resources when not using the
app. In my phone Waze keeps using the GPS even if I kill the app and even
after a fresh restart! I obviously deleted Waze now, but not without regret.
:-(

------
dav43
This is the perfect example of development for the sake of development. The
new user experience is terrible and provides the user with zero extra
benefits.

I seriously can't see how a product manager signs off on these updates.

~~~
ipqk
I live in NYC with a lot of one-way streets, including my home. I actually use
two different addresses for my home depending on whether I'm being picked-up
or dropped-off. Otherwise, when being dropped off, Uber has sent me on some
really odd detours just to get me exactly in front of my house. Instead, I'd
rather get dropped off at a corner and walk 200 feet.

In theory, by collecting the location data 5 minutes after, they can get a
sense of this where and to whom this happens, and automatically correct for
it. I don't know if it'll work, but if it does, it'll definitely be a benefit
to me.

~~~
bastawhiz
This is exactly the kind of application that the data is going to be used for.

~~~
CaptainZapp
Says Uber.

Unfortunately - based on their history - you're working for an utterly
untrustworthy company, no matter the smiley face of nice they're trying to
paint themselves nowadays.

This is not directed against you. I appreciate that you're hanging in here and
participate in the discussion.

------
JumpCrisscross
In iOS, most apps request your location "Always", "While Using the App" or
"Never". I had Uber set to the second; that option is now gone. It's always or
never. Set it to never; this makes their app less usable, but that just nudges
me to use Lyft, Juno, _et cetera_.

~~~
honkhonkpants
This makes the app flat out not work for me. I just get blank panes top and
bottom.

[https://s11.postimg.org/by249fhsz/IMG_1459.png](https://s11.postimg.org/by249fhsz/IMG_1459.png)

~~~
mittsh
Yep, I've got exactly the same yesterday until Uber asked me to grant "Always"
location tracking. Not only I dislike the forceful location grant but they had
a bug that didn't prompt me for it until I rebooted the app twice :)

------
TuringNYC
Putting aside all the other arguments regarding privacy, ethics, etc, I have a
more acute issue: battery life. I allow almost no app "Always Using"
privileges on location because of battery drain. I saw this update on Uber
yesterday and now i've had to literally turn on and off Location services
altogether when using/not-using Uber to prevent potential battery drain.

Over the weekend, now I need to run a test to see how Uber performs on the "24
hr Battery Usage" stats with Location always on. That is a lot of work for a
retail device, but I'm also so dependent on Uber now (gave up having a
car!)...

------
fencepost
I can't say I'm heartbroken that Uber disabled my account after my card on
file was replaced (thanks Home Depot!) and I didn't update it. This wasn't
even tied to requesting a ride, I think I'd opened the app to see what
coverage in a suburban area looked like.

IIRC the "get my account back" process was going to involve sending a copy of
my drivers license and the dead card which had been cut up several months
earlier, and it just wasn't worth the hassle of even following up.

And this was even before all the "all your ride of shame are belong to us"
brouhaha - so now they want to track your walks of shame as well?

------
erkose
Why do we accept this intrusion into our lives?

~~~
synicalx
I accept it because I don't really care if Uber knows where I am for a couple
of minutes after they drop me off. Not everyone's cup of tea, but if you don't
like it there's nothing stopping you from uninstalling the app.

~~~
bigiain
Any you trust them (as a company) that they'll "only track you for 5 minutes
after using the app", and you trust each of their staff members will have
controlled/secured/audited access to only the 5 minutes location data after a
trip, and you trust them to never deploy a production bug in their tracking
code, and you trust every law enforcement or business partner request for that
data including gag-order-backed-NSLs.

And that's OK - if you're good with that. Now go and ask some women you know
whether they have all that trust? Or minorities. Or activists. If you were a
Muslim or Mexican in the US right now - do you suppose you'd be happy leaving
an Uber app with "Always" location tracking permission on your phone past Jan
20th? If you had a close friend legally and peacefully protesting the pipeline
in North Dakota right now and you knew they used Uber - would you be checking
that they know this?

I reject the position that because _you_ don't really care, that it's OK to
"accept" this. Even though _you_ don't care, tell Uber you do not accept this
because of what it means for your sister or friends or coworkers or neighbours
or your allegedly "freedom loving" society...

~~~
bastawhiz
It's worth noting that if Uber accidentally started collecting location data
from every rider's phone in perpetuity while they're not on-trip, it would be
a very big problem for Uber. That's an absolutely ridiculous amount of data
and would easily overwhelm the service. You wouldn't have to worry about NSLs
because the data centers would be a fiery mess of steel and silicon. Even if
they weren't, the data is overwhelmingly not useful for anyone at Uber (how
many hours of "sleeping at home" worth of data points could ever be used?),
and it would be destroyed because it's a giant waste of resources.

Uber is big, but not that big. You're already volunteering your location for
the service (by being in a car tracked by Uber), this simply adds a small
margin of data at the end of the trip.

~~~
jitix
Efficiently storing and analyzing vast amounts of data isn't very difficult
these days - esp if the data is something that they can monetize.

------
bogomipz
This from the company who recently settled a fine with the A.G in New York for
uasge of its "god view" tool:

"Uber and New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman have reached a
settlement over the company's "God View" tool, which allowed employees to
access and track the location of Uber riders and customers without obtaining
permission."

[http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/6/10726004/uber-god-mode-
sett...](http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/6/10726004/uber-god-mode-settlement-
fine)

------
honkhonkpants
Yeah REALLY obnoxious. I was just disabling this after another Uber ride. They
do not provide the option to enable location services only when the app is
running on screen. I think it might be nice if iOS presented this option
regardless of what Uber wants.

~~~
micaksica
> I think it might be nice if iOS presented this option regardless of what
> Uber wants.

I delete any application that requires all-or-nothing location privileges; if
Uber acts this way now I'm done using Uber.

Being able to make it such that location services are an all-or-nothing
proposition when there is clearly support for "only when using" in iOS annoys
me to no end. The fact Apple _doesn 't_ do this is what is actually alarming,
given their stance on "privacy".

~~~
otoburb
>>I delete any application that requires all-or-nothing location privileges;
if Uber acts this way now I'm done using Uber.

This is the calculated risk Uber is taking. Presumably they believe that they
will only lose a tiny sliver of their user base over the all-or-nothing
approach. Now that they're well past the "early adoption" phase in many
markets this is a "smart" corporate play.

~~~
micaksica
I am aware of the strategy behind Uber's move. My comment above is "count me
out".

I doubt they'll lose even 1% of their installed userbase over this change.

------
0xmohit
I wrote to Uber a week back or so regarding this and this how they responded:

    
    
      My name is Pratik from Uber support, I hope you doing well !
      Sorry to hear about about your experience.. I completely
      understand that this wasn't the experience you expect with
      Uber.
     
      We are constantly working to improve the Uber experience and
      your input is crucial to doing so.
     
      I’ll pass this along to the appropriate team.
     
      Thanks again!
    

\----

There wasn't a response upon posting a comment to their blog regarding the
same.

~~~
osi
That's the bullshit response they give you to anything that isn't solvable
with a ride credit.

------
imgabe
Uber is somehow ridiculously bad with giving directions. Despite manually
entering the address for a number of places, Uber insists on directing drivers
into unmarked alleys instead of onto the street outside. You know, the actual
street that's _named in the freaking address_. Instead of invading their
customers' privacy they could start by just using the information they've been
given.

------
trengrj
How to delete your Uber account:
[https://help.uber.com/h/24010fe7-7a67-4ee5-9938-c734000b144a](https://help.uber.com/h/24010fe7-7a67-4ee5-9938-c734000b144a)

------
bad_user
I actually noticed this - iOS has this nice feature of giving warnings like "
_Uber has been tracking your location_ ", which was a WTF moment for me
because I haven't used Uber that day at all. So in response I've cut its
location access completely.

I've also had a similar experience with Waze. WTF are these apps doing with my
location while I'm not using them?

Btw, for all the badmouthing I've given Apple and iOS over the years, this is
one feature of iOS that I like. But I would have preferred the option to force
location tracking only while using the app.

~~~
jfoldager
I was going to say that you can choose to only allow access to your location
while using the app, but then I checked in iOS. Some apps only have the choice
between always and never. Is it up to the developer to remove/put in the
option "While Using the App"?

------
hrehhf
Isn't it reasonable to want a taxi service that doesn't track its customers
beyond 1 single ride? For example, a regular taxi paid with cash?

~~~
macintux
I'm fortunate enough to have a small taxi service that operates near me. I
probably spend more but I like their API: call the phone number and get a
ride.

------
nibs
What about using m.uber.com with a browser that sandboxes location data
requests effectively?

------
jayajay
"Uber collects your location data from the time of trip request through five
minutes after the trip ends, including when the app is in the background" \--
Uber.

Is this legally gray, or am I paranoid?

Not-scary Interpretation 1: Uber collects location data from t_0 to t_1
_regardless_ of whether or not the app is in the background.

Scary Interpretation 2: Uber collects location data from t_0 to t_1 _and_ when
the app is in the background.

I'm surprised they didn't start doing this 4 years ago.

Location data is _really fucking good_ data to have on people, which is why I
would rather not be giving it away willynilly. Additionally, Uber's service is
one of the few services where getting this data can be justified and seems
less creepy.

------
julochrobak
The situation is getting serious in general. There are many many apps that
people use daily. How can one find out what data is being collected per
application? It would be really nice to a have a web site where the community
(technical people who can inspect the apps) could maintain this information
per application and a user could see a simple green/red bullets and decide
whether the app is worth it or not. Really, really high level, designed for
end-user (non-technical).

~~~
ptx
F-Droid shows a list of antifeatures[0] along with the description of each
application. Here is one example with the "tracking antifeature":
[https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=at.tomtasche.rea...](https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=at.tomtasche.reader)

[0]
[https://f-droid.org/wiki/page/Antifeatures](https://f-droid.org/wiki/page/Antifeatures)

------
dariusm5
I had to restore my iPhone from a week old backup in order to get the previous
Uber version back. It's a shame there's no easier way to downgrade an app on
iOS.

~~~
arm
There is, but only if you update apps in iTunes on your computer instead of
directly on your iPhone.

Basically, update the app in iTunes (which will send the old IPA package
(which is still signed to your Apple ID) into the Trash / Recycle Bin, then
connect your iPhone to your computer and sync to replace the old app with the
new one. You’ll still have the old IPA package in your computer’s Trash /
Recycle Bin, so if you ever need to downgrade to the older version of the app,
just move it out of the Trash / Recycle Bin, delete the newer version of the
app in iTunes, and then double-click on the old IPA package to have it open in
iTunes. Then, you can just connect your iPhone to your computer and sync.

------
masterleep
There is no chance whatsoever that I'm going to give Uber access to my
location while not using the app, so this just makes it harder to me to be a
customer.

------
foxhop
Ethics. I'm not sure when ethics will matter again. We almost need a movement
from startups that promise certain ethics. It would be a refreshing change.

------
fsavard
There was an episode of the american version of the "modern Sherlock Holmes"
TV series, "Elementary", where the plot revolved around a company akin to Uber
(called Zooss in the show). It was particularly illustrative of how tempting
it can be for internal employees to abuse that type of data. Among other
things Sherlock was able to requisition a large fraction of the company GPS
tracking data for his murder investigation. As a side effect he was able to
figure out who was having an affair, who was going for an interview at a
competitor's company, etc.

5 minutes after drop-off is quite enough to uncover where you meant to
_really_ go if you gave a close-by address, in these scenarios.

That's pretty much what the OP meant with "So your secret rendezvous may not
be so secret" but it's particularly poignant in a TV show.

------
Bahamut
I noticed this in the past two weeks - as a result, if I use Uber, I toggle it
on, and afterwards I turn it off. This is pretty crappy, I don't need an app
punishing my battery by default just so they can collect more data.

It really makes me think twice about sticking with Uber.

------
jungc
Uber also charges significantly different prices between users.

My friends and I did a test and each time, I keep getting charged at least $6
more.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMm4ehc7oCw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMm4ehc7oCw)

~~~
xapata
That's clever of them. Perhaps your elasticity of demand is lower.

~~~
jungc
I was a huge fan until now. I'm really disappointed that they pick and choose
who they think should pay more for the same ride.

~~~
xapata
I'm not. It's called "price discrimination" and if you don't do that at your
business, you should. Whenever you hear a fun story about enterprise pricing,
that's what it's talking about. Mobile phones make it more specific.

------
jonathankoren
Uber is really a scummy company. And given their track record with absuing
user data, I don't trust them at all with this new expansive data collection
effort. Let's review the company shall we?

The CEO, Travis Kalanick, has used God View to monitor people for
entertainment.[0] The head of their NYC office also go into hot water over
using God View inappropriately[1]. At other companies, these would be fireable
offenses. No second chances. Deactivate the counts. Escort them to the door.
Mail them their stuff. At Uber, it's totally cool brah.

There's the whole "you're not our employee, but we pay you, and tell you where
to go, and how to act."

They explicitly target low income people to be their totally-not-employees,
through direct mail, and their "urban" "Get your side hustle on!" commercials.

Their auto financing product is predatory.[2] It explicitly targets people bad
credit to lease a car they can't pay for unless they're constantly totally-
not-employed-with Uber. The interest rates are usury levels of 22.75% APR.

Then of course there's the whole, "Fuck the law!" aspect of the company.

[0] [http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/10/03/god-
view-...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/10/03/god-view-uber-
allegedly-stalked-users-for-party-goers-viewing-pleasure/#5091567d3f84)

[1] [https://www.buzzfeed.com/johanabhuiyan/uber-is-
investigating...](https://www.buzzfeed.com/johanabhuiyan/uber-is-
investigating-its-top-new-york-executive-for-
privacy?utm_term=.twjvZpzBx#.nnPWOkaRz)

[2] [http://www.marketplace.org/2015/05/13/tech/uber-drivers-
stru...](http://www.marketplace.org/2015/05/13/tech/uber-drivers-struggle-pay-
subprime-auto-loans)

~~~
WhitneyLand
I take issue with your summary. You forgot arrogant and douchy antics,
documented in interviews, personal accounts, and other places.

~~~
jonathankoren
When I visited them, I found the company was full of very young, very naïve,
kool-aid drinkers.

------
triplesec
In android you can prevent apps from sending mobile data to the cloud in the
background. Go to Settings > Connections tab > Data Usage, and scroll down to
the app. There's a 'restrict background data' checkbox.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
So they'll just record the data in the background and send it when the app is
in use.

~~~
triplesec
I agree, quite possibly, although not all developers are as competent as you'd
hope / fear

------
MrGando
I'm not sharing my location with Uber anymore on my iPhone App. Pretty simple.

------
colept
Devil's advocate:

I had an Uber driver drop me off in a sketchy alley three blocks from the
location I specified, but because he barely spoke a lick of English I had
trouble communicating that it wasn't my stop.

~~~
jacalata
They already had the data showing where he dropped you off, what do you think
they're going to do with the extra data?

~~~
colept
See where guests are dropped off, and where they go right afterwards such as
if they're cutting trips short or being dropped off too far.

------
gandutraveler
I think they are doing this also to stop riders/drivers who game Uber. Riders
walking patterns post-ride can be also used for predicting return pickup
locations for concerts etc.

------
cOgnaut
Please forgive my ignorance, but do most hackers leave their phone's GPS
antenna turned on most of the time?

And do most hackers update all their apps automatically? I generally do a
"broad" update once or twice a year. And I update specific apps as needed (or
desired). I would have assumed most hackers would do these kinds of things.
It's like putting a tape "lid" over your webcam and only taking it off when
you want to use it. Isn't it?

------
nikcub
re: Uber's reasoning one thing to keep in mind: this is the last opt-in user
privacy hurdle for Uber.

From here, any change Uber or an acquirer make doesn't alert or ask users.
always-on location tracking is ring0 of personal privacy. They can remove that
5 minute monitoring window any time with an app update.

Question isn't 'do I trust what Uber say to justify this change', but 'will I
trust Uber to protect my privacy and security _forever_ '

------
sdoering
I am asking myself, if this could mean, we can "kill" Uber in Germany for
good. Our data protection laws state, that you are only allowed to track the
necessary data to provide the service.

Tracking users after the use a service is imho not really encompassing the
spirit of the law.

Surely Uber lawyers could state that this is necessary information for making
the service better for the user - like always.

Non the less - one more reason not to ever use a service provided by this
company.

~~~
PMan74
Not just Germany, I'm pretty sure this is an EU wide directive. For sure it's
the it works in Ireland (where thankfully Uber has not had any success).

So Uber must have some view on why this does not contravene that directive, I
doubt they have not considered it.

------
dcosson
Am I the only one who thinks this is actually a very small amount of
additional data to give up, and don't mind doing it? I'm willing to accept
there's a small chance it might make the service a little better for me.

They already know exactly where I came from and where I'm going, what could I
possibly do in the 5 minutes after getting dropped off that would reveal
significantly more information?

------
radialbrain
Great reason to use their Web app instead of the native one - same
functionality, and no such worries.

------
necessity
PrivacyGuard and Orwall prevent applications from using the internet/GPS
without your express authorization. Anyway if you want absolute privacy toss
your smartphone in the trash can, cancel your contract with your ISP, commit
social suicide and go live off the grid.

~~~
uabstraction
Imagine if the Founding Fathers decided to forgo western civilization and go
live in the woods as nomadic hunter gatherers instead of standing up to
British oppression... Or if all the blacks just listened to Marcus Garvey and
went back to Africa instead of participating in the American Civil Rights
Movement. This is basically what you're suggesting.

We have the technological means to ensure reasonable levels of privacy.
There's no excuse for lemon technology that exposes every intimate detail of
our lives.

~~~
necessity
... except Uber, Google, carriers, etc, are not oppressive.

~~~
cowpig
The fact that nobody's used a nuclear weapon offensively since WWII doesn't
mean nuclear proliferation is fine.

Similarly, the proliferation of extremely powerful information is obviously
dangerous, regardless of whether it is causing active harm currently.

------
niksmac
I am very irritated with this update, it is so unnecessary and iOS is
complaining about the location access as well.

I dont see any possible use of tracking the location after the ride except
tracking the users location and create a surge pricing out of it.

------
beefield
Just wondering, are there virtualization/sandboxing apps/solutions that would
let me create full emulated mobile environments into my phone and control all
the sensor data that the environment is seeing?

~~~
0xmohit
Another possibility is to keep a dedicated phone for Uber. Turn it on _only_
when needed. Not sure how practical it would be, though.

------
myrandomcomment
Set to Never. Hum, I think I will give Lyft a try now. Never bothered to
before.

------
dmVI
Quick check on my iPhone shows that it allows for (and is set to) "While Using
the App" for location access settings. Running latest iOS release.

------
intrasight
Just uninstall the app after you get your ride, and reinstall it next time you
need it.

------
bkmrkr
And I'm switching to Lyft

------
Animats
Won't this drain the battery, with Uber's app running in background?

------
dman
Just lost me as a customer.

~~~
stevenhubertron
Me as well. A step to far for my liking.

------
oulipo
Privacy-by-design now is more important than ever, this is why we build on
this with [https://snips.ai](https://snips.ai)

------
lerpa
"Uber now discloses it does this"

------
reacharavindh
I voted with my wallet and deleted Uber from my phone. My little contribution
to the world.

And wrote a message to my friends that I did so, and why they should consider
it.

------
DavidWanjiru
According to the permissions request dialogue, "...We [want to collect your
data even after you're dropped off] to improve pickups, drop-offs, customer
service and to enhance safety..."

I don't buy any of it. Here's why:

IMPROVE DROP-OFFS: The most improved drop-off that Uber can deliver is the one
I, the passenger, gives them, either verbally to the driver, via GPS by them
noting the point where I was dropped off, or via GPS by me entering my
destination location. Normally, I ask to be dropped off where it's most
convenient for me, and the most convenient for me is the best drop-off
experience possible. Even if after being dropped off, I go to a final
destination for which Uber reckons a better drop-off point than the one I
chose exists, it's not for Uber to say, based on where I am going, what my
best drop off point is. That's for me, the customer, to say. Since when does a
cab tell you where to drop you off? Unless I don't know where I am going, in
which case Uber already knows what the best drop off point is, and has no need
to further improve it.

IMPROVE PICKUPS. Presumably, the pickup will be improved based on historical
location data, which tells them, this guy actually goes/lives/drinks/et here,
something we know coz we tracked him last time he used Uber. Again, when I
board a cab, I go to the point of most convenience for me. I'd probably have a
cab come right to my bedroom door inside my house if it were possible, but
since it's not, I choose the next best possible point, which is normally the
same place they dropped me off at if they're the ones who brought me here.
Same argument applies: unless I'm a stranger, my choice of pickup point is the
best pickup point experience possible, and needs no further improvement. If
based on where I'm coming from, Uber reckon there's a better pickup point,
it's not for them to say. They're a cab. A cab comes get you where you want it
to come get you, the location of your bedroom door and other laws and issues
permitting.

CUSTOMER SERVICE: This sounds tenuous. Nothing that I can think of that can be
termed as good customer service from a cab company would be improved by
tracking my movement after the cab has dropped me off. Some good customer
service issues have nothing to do with my location, and the two that do are
the ones I've discussed above.

ENHANCE SAFETY. Again, tenuous without more explanation. How does knowing
where I go after you drop me off enhance safety either for myself or the
driver?

I've seen a comment from some who says they work at Uber saying that this
helps to figure out where the pick up spots for each address are, that a large
building may have multiple points where people get picked up or dropped off.
Which sounds reasonable, until you realize that the point that I got dropped
off is the best one for me, which is why I chose it, and you, Uber, already
know that because you've just dropped me off. Tracking me AFTER dropping me
off doesn't make your knowledge of my best drop off more accurate, it makes it
less accurate since I'm moving further and further away from the best drop off
point as you continue to track me.

~~~
lerpa
> Normally, I ask to be dropped off where it's most convenient for me, and the
> most convenient for me is the best drop-off experience possible.

Big brother knows best, surrender now, you'll be assimilated.

