
Stripe Atlas - hepha1979
https://stripe.com/atlas
======
grellas
If Atlas is implemented as promised (probably a safe assumption given the
Stripe team), it will afford founders throughout the world a pain-free entry
point into the world's most advanced economy, opening the way for key
financing, for seamless payments processing, for ease of banking transactions
to get people paid and to move funds easily, and for access to advice and
guidance from people in the know to address a whole host of other problems and
challenges that are faced by budding ventures who have had initial success in
their home countries but need help in breaking out from there to gain
potential international success.

 _This is no small feat._

I can't tell you how often in my many years of working with startups I have
had foreign founders reach out to me in bewilderment over how to solve even
the most basic problems as they sought to grow internationally and to gain a
U.S. presence. It is not that the challenges are daunting or insurmountable.
Many companies have dealt with them before. But they have had to do so in the
context of having to grope around in the dark until they could figure things
out. This cost them time. It cost them money. And it often meant they made
mistakes that could set them back.

With a platform such as Atlas, they will now have a turnkey solution to this
traditional problem. The solution is standardized and this means it has its
limits. In solving the "step one" problem efficiently and at what appears to
be low cost, however, it represents a major advance over current solutions and
is very impressive indeed. For foreign founders doing amazing things on the
talent side but needing to gain greater exposure and take next steps, it is
basically a platform for greater credibility. You gain a U.S. presence. You
expand your money handling capabilities. You position for greater funding. And
you connect with experts who can be there to guide as needed.

The legal piece on this is vital but almost in tow, as it were. A standard
Delaware C corp is the only option, which is adequate for a start but will
clearly not meet the needs of a potentially huge number of founding teams that
may have differing circumstances. It seems that this range of choices will be
broadened on the Atlas platform over time. For now (and over time), founders
are told to link up with legal counsel (either their own or a default
provider) to sort through these issues. This, along with good CPA support, is
vital to make sure the right tax and other decisions are made along the way.
The platform simplifies the _process_ enormously but significant complexities
remain in the _substance_ of what needs to be done. What Atlas does in this
regard is to give founders a foundation from which they are well positioned to
"take it from there." In this sense, it is a tool, not a legal or CPA resource
as such (as it should be).

Stripe appears to have sought out a way to expand demand for its payments
processing services and has come up, in effect, with a way of creating a sort
of virtual Silicon Valley for the world's startup entrepreneurs. This will not
be for everyone but it looks like it will be a great solution for many.

One can say kudos for that but that would almost seem to be a form of
understatement. I look forward to seeing how it will continue to develop.

~~~
pbreit
I'm still a little confused on whether or not this is better than
incorporating in your own country. Is this more geared to accelerator startups
who are thinking of moving to the US? Certainly US incorporation is not
required (or even all that helpful?) in establishing a US presence?

~~~
michaelschade
Great question! I've learned a lot about this as I've gotten to hear from
entrepreneurs that tried to setup in their own country, but ultimately came to
the US. The video on our site gives some glimpse into the problems these
entrepreneurs run into:
[https://stripe.com/atlas#stories](https://stripe.com/atlas#stories)

The gist is that certain countries have a better business and banking
infrastructure than others for entrepreneurs looking to establish a global
company. This isn't necessarily specific to the US—and we'll be expanding
Atlas to more countries—but the US is a solid starting point, based on what
many entrepreneurs in emerging markets already do.

For example, incorporating in a place like Delaware allows companies to issue
stock to employees, makes it easy to raise money from global investors, and
provides the stability of clear corporate rules and case law. (Most Fortune
500 companies are established in Delaware). Getting started with a US
incorporation also makes many more services accessible to you, that might not
be available if you incorporated in your own country with less support for new
businesses.

It's a personal decision, for sure, but if you're in a country where you're
finding your business constrained by the lack of particular banking
infrastructure or access to business services, we think Atlas can help.

~~~
flashm
This only really works for people that aren't already setup as a company
though.

You can't just open a new company in another country and expect to start
moving your revenue to it, it just doesn't work like that. For instance, I'm
registered in the UK and would have a tough time telling HMRC 'oh that's my US
company, nothing to do with you'. It's a completely different problem if you
already run a business and want to open a US branch. That's the same for
pretty much anyone in the EU.

I think that needs to be made more clear in the schpiel.

~~~
phillmv
>You can't just open a new company in another country and expect to start
moving your revenue to it, it just doesn't work like that.

It kind of does work like that? Granted, it depends on how you structure it.

I confess I'm not privy to how taxes work in the UK, and that further I'm not
an accountant but: I too am responsible for a US and non US corp. You may have
to declare your US corp as an asset in the UK, for all I know.

That said, if you have a US legal entity that is booking revenue then HMRC
doesn't have any jurisdiction. That USCorp pays US corporate taxes just like
any other.

If you move any of the US income to your UKCorp or your UK resident person
then the Crown will happily takes its cut.

~~~
chrisdew
If you are resident in the UK and control a US company, HMRC need to be told
about it. [https://www.gov.uk/guidance/controlled-foreign-company-an-
ov...](https://www.gov.uk/guidance/controlled-foreign-company-an-overview)

The US company will pay 20% UK Corporation Tax on (worldwide) profits and need
to fill out CT600 each year.

You will probably be able to pay lower taxes in the US as a result of double
taxation treaties, but it's going to be a very tedious task to organise.

~~~
phillmv
Aha, that's fair. Judging by the site it seems you'll have to take care to
demonstrate that you're not shifting UK derived profits; but either way you'll
want to chat up an accountant.

In my jurisdiction, to my knowledge and experience, they're considerably more
lax.

------
tvladeck
This is cool, but they should not offer a C corp as the default choice. An LLC
should be the default for the _vast_ majority of entrepreneurs. The only
reason VC-funded companies are C corps is becaused VC LPs don't want to be hit
with taxable income (which would flow through the VC to them). An LLC is much
better for a variety of reasons:

\- Flow through taxation = you only get taxed once. With a C corp you pay
corporate income tax and then you get taxed on any distribution

\- If you sell the business, you better hope you have enough leverage to get a
stock sale and not an asset sale, because in an asset sale, you're again
getting majorly double taxed. The vast majority of exits are asset sales
though because they shield the purchaser from unknown liabilities

\- From an LLC, you can easily become a C corp. From a C corp, it's majorly
difficult (practically infeasible) to become an LLC; you retain optionality in
one case but not the other

~~~
rpedela
You must be a C Corp to accept VC investment.

It is expensive and time consuming to go from LLC to C Corp. Maybe you mean S
Corp which has some similarities with LLC but it is easy to switch to C Corp
if you need to.

I generally agree they should not offer C Corp though because the paperwork is
extremely complicated and cannot be done correctly by an internet form at
least in my experience.

EDIT: I should have said very unlikely to raise VC investment even though it
is technically possible to raise investment with most types of businesses such
as LLC. [1]

1\. [http://www.dividendsandpreferences.com/2009/02/why-dont-
vent...](http://www.dividendsandpreferences.com/2009/02/why-dont-venture-
capitalists-like.html?m=1)

~~~
tvladeck
> You must be a C Corp to accept investment.

This is not true. You can sell membership interest in an LLC the same way you
can sell stock in a C corp.

And in my experience it's fairly simple to go LLC to C. I didn't get confused
with S corps.

~~~
api
Will any actual VC firms invest in an LLC? I've never heard of that but then
again I've never worked in that world full time.

~~~
chris_va
Most just require that you convert from LLC to C-Corp, which isn't impossible.

------
Olscore
While I don't have much to add, this is very interesting and almost feels
patriotic (as an American.) Stripe is, in a way, hacking the global economy
and luring entrepreneurs to the do business in the United States. While this
iteration may fall short of perfection, or open questions, it also opens up
some imagination and interesting ideas or possibilities.

Could this be the beginning of startups offering citizens of one country, the
ability to (easily) incorporate / operate a business from any nation? Perhaps
this is more interesting when considering crypto-currencies which are already
eroding national boundaries in some sense. While I cannot say this is a good
or bad thing, it is interesting to think about the consequences and evolution
of this concept plus crypto.

To me, the idea of operating a business (pseudo-person or entity) in any
nation, is intriguing. Especially mixing in the possibilities of Ethereum,
Blockchains. Forex. Hm... Imagination running wild right now.

~~~
bachback
Most of the worlds capital flows through off-shore finance (Cayman Islands,
Isle-of-man, etc), see
[http://treasureislands.org](http://treasureislands.org) . For finance,
biotech, etc. jurisdiction arbitrage is pretty standard. It's what the big
corporations and billionaires do to avoid taxes, and more generally the law.
OFC's are strongly tied to the financial centers of NY and London. I doubt
that this product is all that useful for entrepreneurs outside developed
countries, who have access to legal infrastructure anyway. The real
breakthroughs will come from borderless settlement of contracts on the
blockchain, i.e. situations where one doesn't rely on lawyers, but computers.
One can think about the cost to do an IPO (millions), versus issuing an asset
on the blockchain (cents). With Stripe one can really see the hypocrisy of the
financial system: they have sponsored an Altcoin called Stellar, but they ban
businesses who are dealing with Cryptocurrencies.

~~~
Olscore
My intrigue is more-so the possibilities (extrapolating the idea) of doing
this in other countries. Being able to EASILY incorporate a business in
another country, regardless of the owner's country of residency, could have
profound effects on economies and business models. Yes, conglomerates are
already able to do this. However, making incorporation in another country
easier for low-budget, small businesses, or new entrepreneurs would be an
interesting new capability which is not currently feasible. In other words,
lowering the barriers to entry for accomplishing that task.

If a single entrepreneur could configure a multi-national business that would
be interesting. For what purposes or benefit, that is up for imagination and
debate. But this whole idea is interesting from a globalization standpoint. I
do understand where you are coming from regarding crypto-currencies; I was
merely referring to them as a transfer of value mechanism.

Without descending into a long topic, there are still issues with issuing
colored coins or stocks using crypto-tokens. For example, where do you
litigate issues or handle shareholder complaints? Crypto-stocks are still
premature and lacking proper frameworks; real world case studies and success
stories are needed. Crypto-companies still rely on geography bound
jurisdictions to handle hosting, accounting, laws, etc. Perhaps in the future
many issues will be resolved with crypto-autonomous contracts (in theory.) Or
with other agreements and digital court systems, etc. In the meantime, if you
issue a crypto-stock, the reality is shareholders need legal systems to work
within, otherwise crypto-stocks are literally dust without any enforceability.

------
yeahrightfam
This means nothing for me (and should also mean nothing for the targeted
audience of the post).

I've been constantly ignored from Stripe since they launched their beta in
Mexico (actually way before that, I subscribed years before, when Stripe
launched in the US). I can't do business with them because I'm not part of
their secret club, while at the same many businesses here somehow get access
and start using them. That feels like some kind of unfair competition.

I know, you are going to say, they are not obliged to provide service with
you, but then, after reading the kind of PR they publish (like this one) you
would feel like it, at least they should be morally obliged to stand by their
word.

"Stripe Atlas is invite-only to start. ... You can apply directly or get a
referral from one of our partners."

Oh ok, so another secret club, and this time the gatekeepers in Mexico are
some guys named Antoni and Lelo de Larrea , which for you outside of Mexico,
the Larrea family are a powerful group in Mexico that came to be through
corruption, government favors and pretty much all the things you usually hate
from Mexico. Remember when the miners in Chile were trapped and then rescued?
The same thing happened at more or less the same time in Mexico, a lot of
media coverage here in Mexico, the mining company owned by them, it was
relatively cheap to rescue them but they decided not to do it, they let them
die because it was not worth the money. And now I have to do business with
those people if I want to process my payments?

Yeah, thanks Stripe, but no thanks.

~~~
tmfrancis
The whole purpose of Stripe is to make basic tools for starting an internet
business more broadly available and without barriers. The core of our strategy
is to eliminate gatekeepers and secret clubs. We’re openly available in 18
countries today (you can see the complete list stripe.com/global) and hundreds
of thousands of businesses use Stripe after openly signing up.

Because businesses’ livelihoods and revenue are at stake, we start new
products and countries in an invite-only beta so that we can fully test things
and fine-tune the details before rolling them out more broadly. We don’t think
it’d be responsible to try to maximize the initial product experience at the
expense of doing’s what’s best for the businesses who’ll build on it. So with
Atlas (and in Mexico), we’re starting in invite-only mode with the goal of
expanding access (and making it openly available!) as soon as we can.

I'm sorry we weren't able to get you signed up sooner, but we’d love to have
you on board with the beta in Mexico. If you drop me an email (tmf@stripe.com)
we’ll send you an invite.

~~~
chirau
Hey bro, quick question... What's the story with African countries? Any chance
we can get in on this? Also, how does taxation work with this?

~~~
michaelschade
Atlas is suited for entrepreneurs anywhere in the world, including in African
countries. You can apply here:
[https://stripe.com/atlas](https://stripe.com/atlas)

The tax requirements will vary for each company. At a minimum, you'll need to
pay US federal income taxes on your US income, and pay the Delaware Franchise
Tax each year. Since we know this is a nuanced topic, we've partnered with PwC
to give you guidance from a US perspective when you are invited to Atlas.

------
pentae
This is huge. As someone who is involved in the digital nomad community here
in Chiang Mai, Thailand - getting incorporation and processing set up for a
lot of people here is very difficult.

Although places like Thailand are a great place for independent bootstrapping
and there’s a solid network of entrepreneurs - one of the biggest hurdles is
incorporation, banking and acquiring. This is taken for granted when you’re
living in a first world country - but for the new location independent
entrepreneur who is building their startup from cafes or coworking spaces in
Chiang Mai to Ho Chi Minh or Medellin, getting a corporation, processing and a
bank account structured is often a huge problem.

~~~
eis
You don't need the US for that though. You can incorporate for example in Hong
Kong with ease and even better tax advanteges.

For digital nomads in Thailand I think the bigger problem is that they can't
get long term visas and are effectively breaking the law unless they somehow
work for a local company which isn't easy as those need 4 Thais employed for
every foreigner. And even if you could get a corporate bank account here, the
banks usually don't have good connections to other countries and the systems
they use are not exactly flexible. Plus the bank staff usually doesn't know
jack shit about anything.

Thailand is great for the food, climate, cheap living costs and culture. But
it's really bad for foreigners who want to start a digital business.

~~~
pentae
Hong Kong is a great place to incorporate for tax advantages, but a terrible
place for getting merchant processing or a bank account.

Remote openings are not possible. You can fly to Hong Kong and open a bank
account in person, and they may (or may not) open one for you - but getting
payment processing for a Hong Kong corporation with no processing history is
basically impossible for the average person.

I have a Hong Kong company and I know many people who also have Hong Kong
companies, and I speak from experience.

As for your other points about Thailand, you’d be wrong about that also -
Thailand has no problem with you working independently or from coffee shops at
all, it is not against the law and getting long term visas or even self-funded
work permits for long stays is trivial.

As for companies, you can set up a BOI company for technology corps which is
tax exempt for the first 8 years and the 4 thais for every foreigner rule is
not applied, as I have.

However, in a round about way you have proved my point - living in these types
of locations is preferable, but doing business here is usually not. Hence, why
people incorporate elsewhere and the Stripe Atlas product nails it.

Cheers

~~~
eis
I have not found it difficult to get a corporate bank account and merchant
account in the past in Hong Kong with HSBC. Yes you have to go there in person
but I don't see this as a big deal. We had CC processing and your agents
should have contacts to get you set up. Things might have changed in recent
years.

And no I am not wrong. If you don't have a work permit which you get by
working for a Thai company, you are breaking the law as you are not allowed to
work without a permit. Full stop. I have not said that working out of a
coffeeshop is illegal.

Long term visa again only by working for a local company. And if you go for
the fake 4 Thais emploees route, sure that can work but you can get into
trouble anyways because you are effectively working around the law.

Setting up a Bord of Investors company is not a trivial thing. It can take up
to half a year, you'll have to pass the interview at the HQ in BKK and show
some real company prospects. This is not something for someone who does web
design or coding for some foreign company out of his condo in Chiang Mai. It's
for people who want to build a real physical business in Thailand. Much easier
to incorporate somewhere else.

~~~
pentae
Yeah, things have changed in recent years in HK. HSBC HK has a horrible
reputation now and they are very resistant to do corporate account openings
and prefer your company is resident or doing business in HK.

Regarding long stay visas in Thailand - as I said, getting a long term visa or
work permit is very simple you can do it through a company who will sponsor
you for a modest fee. If you are interested I can provide you with links.

My BOI did take some time, you are right, but the process was relatively
simple as I used an agency - but totally worth it.

Yes - much easier to incorporate somewhere else. Your experience with HK/HSBC
opening a merchant account is simply not a reality anymore for the majority of
people, particularly without processing history, nor is it in other countries
using HK.

Anyway, this product offering from Stripe is a genuine game changer for people
who want to operate from the US, want a business in a box and want to set it
up remotely. I know many, many people who will jump on it.

~~~
eis

      >> Yeah, things have changed in recent years in HK. HSBC HK has a horrible reputation now and they are very resistant to do corporate account openings and prefer your company is resident or doing business in HK.
    

Good to know. Though it's kinda sad as HK really used to be a great place for
business. I've seen similar changes in

    
    
      >> Regarding long stay visas in Thailand - as I said, getting a long term visa or work permit is very simple you can do it through a company who will sponsor you for a modest fee. If you are interested I can provide you with links.
    

Yea but many such offerings are just circumventing the law and here in the
south at least a couple of these companies got into trouble. And by trouble I
mean the usual extortion by immigration/police. Especially companies with
nominees that hold the other 51% for you are getting more and more attention.

    
    
      >> My BOI did take some time, you are right, but the process was relatively simple as I used an agency - but totally worth it.
    

Hehe the typical Thai way. Find someone (agency) who knows someone that makes
the decision. Pay the agent a "service fee" from which a nice chunk goes to
the official to incentivize a smooth process :)

    
    
      >> Yes - much easier to incorporate somewhere else. Your experience with HK/HSBC opening a merchant account is simply not a reality anymore for the majority of people, particularly without processing history, nor is it in other countries using HK.
    

Again said to hear.

    
    
      >> Anyway, this product offering from Stripe is a genuine game changer for people who want to operate from the US, want a business in a box and want to set it up remotely. I know many, many people who will jump on it. 
    

Undoubtedly the offering from Stripe will be helpful for many people. Somehow
I get the feeling that the US pushed other countries hard to make
incorporation and especially bank account opening much harder in the guise of
fighting terrorism and crime while itself trying to make it simpler. An
interesting economic strategy.

------
glossyscr
I just checked the prohibited businesses [https://stripe.com/de/prohibited-
businesses](https://stripe.com/de/prohibited-businesses)

I am fine with most of them being prohibited but at some points it's getting
quite restricted:

1\. Virtual currency that can be monetized, re-sold or converted to physical
or digital products or services or otherwise exit the virtual world

4\. Sexually-oriented or pornographic products or services

9\. Engaging in deceptive marketing practices _(here: who decides what is
'deceptive')_

14\. Age verification

15\. Age restricted products or services _(which are the most products
/services)_

50\. Centralized travel reservation services or travel clubs

~~~
ashmud
> 15\. Age restricted products or services (which are the most
> products/services)

Wouldn't you need to be the age of majority to use Stripe at all?

~~~
notahacker
Any cc processor has to worry about age restricted products or services using
"Enter your credit card details here" to do their ID checks, especially since
that is often combined with dark patterns that downplay the fact there's a
charge associated with that. And age-restricted products tend to come with a
whole host of other liability issues which they probably don't want connected
to Stripe-registered US shell companies.

~~~
superuser2
It also doesn't make that much sense, considering that 15-17 year olds are
regularly issued debit cards for checking accounts (though the parent is also
usually a joint account owner). AFAIK nothing in the Visa/MC network has
"Birthdate" field.

------
kintamanimatt
Perhaps the least talked about hidden danger with this service is the fact
that by establishing a US nexus, you're putting yourself in the crosshairs of
patent trolls. Software patents pretty much aren't a thing in the rest of the
world, and you can happily trade from abroad with US customers without patent
trolls trying to shake you down. That and the vague potential for national
security letters should you have possibly interesting information.

It's all a balance of risk though and for a lot of people the benefits will
outweigh these risks. For a lot of people these risks will never materialize.

------
eis
A very nice product it seems. But people should be aware that having a US
business, bank account and so on makes you a "US person" in the eyes of the US
government which comes with downsides. If you recently tried to open a bank
account somewhere you might have seen the form you have to fill out which
tries to discover if you are indeed such a "US person". I don't know exactly
what the result apart from probably the bank refusing to take you as a
customer is since I am careful to not become such a "US person".

Nowerdays it's becoming increasingly a better idea to incorporate in a
different country than the US if you can, especially for online businesses
including privacy, tax and ease of doing business.

~~~
patio11
A US corporation is a US person. The owners of it are not, unless they are
citizens or LPRs. Feel free to check with your lawyer or the IRS.

[https://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-
Taxpayers/Clas...](https://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-
Taxpayers/Classification-of-Taxpayers-for-U.S.-Tax-Purposes)

~~~
eis
For banking purposes you can already be befined as a US person by just having
a US phone number, mailing address or generate some brokerage gains from any
US business.

~~~
gexla
You don't have a U.S. phone number, mailing address, etc. You only own shares
in the business. Though you may also be an employee and hold other positions
within the company. You aren't anymore a U.S. person by owning shares of the
corporation you setup than you would be a U.S. person by owning shares in
Microsoft.

------
kiloreux
I live in Algeria, and we can't use credit cards here, my bank account doesn't
support debit cards transfer and if I veer receive 10$ from outside the
country, then I'm in for 1 day of questioning the resources for those money,
This is a great use case for my country and great initiative from Stripe,
Thank you.

~~~
amalag
How would you receive the money from the US bank account then?

~~~
jjoe
The only way I can think of is Western Union. But the fees are ridiculously
high. Even then, the sender is the receiver. I'm not sure how that would work.

~~~
thesimon
>Even then, the sender is the receiver. I'm not sure how that would work.

Used WU before to send money to myself when my debit card chip was broken and
it would've taken too long for an replacement to ship. No issues at all.

(Cost was even lower than what my bank would've charged for an express
replacement card, but of course quite high.)

------
adarsh_thampy
Stripe. We love you.

Recurring billing is such a pain in India and we have been thinking about
registering in the US for a while. More than the high costs some of the
lawyers charge, the issue is with opening a bank account.

Applied for the beta. Hopefully, we'll get accepted soon. Even if I don't make
it to the free list, I'll gladly pay the 500$ fee. That probably should tell
you enough since it's coming from a bootstrapped startup founder.

------
soneca
Wow! This solve so many problems that our startup (www.worldpackers.com in
Brazil) have!

We are a global marketplace, so we have to charge people from everywhere, and
stripe still doesn't cover Brazil.

Opening a Delaware company is a must have as we are starting a series A
fundraising.

And the network, wow!

BUT... I wonder how achievable is the direct application as a way for getting
in the beta. We are not part of any accelerator by choice (except YC that
rejected us on the interview phase). We have a great company, just not
important friends.

So, a question to the community: What is the better aproach: Direct
application or look for someone to refer us?

~~~
michaelschade
Hey! I work at Stripe. Worldpackers looks pretty cool -- nice job!

We kicked off a private beta in Brazil not too long ago that might interest
you. You can sign up here:
[https://stripe.com/global#br](https://stripe.com/global#br). (Once you have a
Stripe account, you can accept payments from anyone, no matter where they're
based.)

If you end up deciding to incorporate in the US (say, if it helps with your
fundraising), the best approach during the beta is a referral through the
Atlas network. We're eager to expand this as we learn more from entrepreneurs
like yourself.

~~~
soneca
thanks for answering, Michael!

I will see if our CEO can hustle out a referral! :)

And I didn't know about the private beta here also, thanks!

------
Liron
Stripe Payments was Exhibit A of overcoming Schlep Blindness to come up with a
killer value prop; looks like Stripe Atlas is Exhibit B.

[http://paulgraham.com/schlep.html](http://paulgraham.com/schlep.html)

~~~
asadlionpk
That is exactly what I was thinking. Though I am not sure how Stripe will be
able to focus on both these schlep problems considering their work isn't
finished yet (expanding to all countries).

~~~
adarsh_thampy
Expanding to more countries will be a problem. Take India for instance. Tons
of regulations and you cannot do a recurring charge. It's easier for Stripe to
get people to incorporate in the US and become their customer rather than try
to expand to India, comply with all the crazy laws, and then accept Indian
customers.

------
koolba
Interesting angle. For a while I've wondered why nobody does a tech/startup
version of "Company in a box". This looks like it's exactly that.
Incorporation, payment processing, the works.

Is Stripe getting a cut of the eventual revenue from the service providers
that are providing the offerings? What's the incentive on their side? Or are
they just hoping to scrape by on the transaction fee revenue (which are way
less than people think they are because they pay out most of it upstream[1]).

Also, what's the expiration on the $15K of AWS credits? The usual one year or
longer?

[1]: If you're wondering why just think about how you get " _1% cash back on
all purchases!_ ".

~~~
seiji
A few places offer "Company in a box" but without the automatic bank account
(e.g. search google for any "Register a company" keywords or even the more
startup focused [https://www.clerky.com](https://www.clerky.com)).

The most amazing this here is obviously the automatic bank account
integration. The last time I set up a SVB account I had to drive to their
Santa Clara office, meet someone, convince them I'm not a hack fraud (lol,
tricked them on that one), then fax over paperwork, then wait a week for
things to get enabled. Just a lot of friction before even getting started on
the real goal of setting up a business account for accepting iOS platform
payments. (side note: let's hope the SVB web interface has gotten better since
then. last I checked, it felt like a scaled up 1996 web app... kinda awful all
over, but it got the job done.)

This offering does sound like it's more focused on helping non-US people to
just start processing US payments easier and not expressly around startups (a
la clerkly). It skips some startup-isms we all know and love (83b forms not
expressly mentioned, does it allocate "startup levels" of default stock during
incorporation, etc), and a big thing not mentioned: it doesn't register you as
a foreign entity in a non-delaware state. You'll get a nastygram from your
state tax office if you don't register as a local foreign entity (they'll
scrape IRS details about you to figure out which companies exist in their
state but aren't registered). Registering as a foreign entity is different for
every state (more fees) and sometimes more BS ("you must notify the public of
your new corporation by paying for notices in two (2) newspapers for six (6)
weeks to complete this process" (that could be just for actual corporations
and not foreign registrations though)).

Looks like an amazing offering overall, and it's always amusing to see how AWS
throws credits all over the place. If Google could wise up to it (assuming
it's not an Amazon promotional exclusivity contract), they should be throwing
4x-10x AWS-sized credits at all the same targets too.

~~~
swampthing
Yea, that's a very accurate guess - the way to think about it is that Stripe
Atlas will more or less do the bare minimum necessary to get you processing
payments on Stripe (though they put you in touch with folks to handle the
rest).

Clerky's more of a full-package solution from the legal side of things (but
obviously not on the banking / payments side).

There's also no need to apply for Clerky - anyone can just sign up and get it
done immediately.

~~~
seiji
The most curious part about Stripe Atlas is they are just ε away from doing it
all themselves now. Doesn't take giant leaps of the imagination to see where
it could be headed next.

The whole "apply" stage is probably just because it's a new service. Don't
want to have 10,000 people jumping on your as-yet-unproven process without a
gating mechanism.

------
amgin3
Is there really a market for this? Why would anyone outside the US want to
open a US company when you can just as easily open a company and bank account
in a tax-free country with little/no oversight?

~~~
hizanberg
Which country lets you easily open a bank account and accept Stripe Payments
with little/no oversight?

~~~
amgin3
Belize, Nevis, British Virgin Islands are all places you can incorporate for
little cost and no taxes, there are many online services that will set it up
for you just like Stripe is doing in the US. With a corp in one of these
countries, you can then open a bank account in Singapore, Hong Kong, etc.
where there is no oversight on your account so you are free to do what you
want.

------
seizmo
Knowing the ridiculous U.S. tax laws (e.g. you once had an Green Card and now
they want to tax you pretty much for the rest of your life regardless of where
you live and work), overboarding bureaucracy and general lack of legal
security (e.g. frivolous patent lawsuits), I would certainly open my business
pretty much anywhere else.

~~~
jenno
Even as a US citizen?

~~~
seizmo
No, as a foreigner. But thats who Atlas is for, right?

~~~
randall
[https://stripe.com/atlas/faq#Who-should-use-
Atlas](https://stripe.com/atlas/faq#Who-should-use-Atlas)

"We expect Atlas to be most beneficial for entrepreneurs who have a global
customer base, plan to raise money from global investors, or who plan to build
an operational presence in the U.S.

While incorporating in the U.S. can make many things much easier, it also
comes with long-term legal and tax implications. You should think carefully
about whether it’s best for your business and consult advisors as necessary.

(Please note that there are a number of business categories that we can’t
support in the U.S.)"

Not for foreigners, for people who want to have a US operations, raise money,
or have customers in the US. I think ops, raising money, or having us
customers is the right order to think of it too.

------
fitzwatermellow
Kudos to the Stripers for continuing to innovate in the payments space! Really
enjoying the simplicity and elegance of your btc payment solutions ;)

Wondering if Atlas could be used to "port" successful internet business models
to "foreign" locales? Setting up a Flipkart in Morocco, or a Youku for
Samoans...

~~~
pc
This is not designed for cloning businesses :-). But we do definitely want to
support other incorporation hubs beyond the US.

~~~
neximo4
Ireland is waiting :)

------
adhipg
How does taxation work in this scenario? I'm imagining that all profits(?)
will be subject to US taxes.

Would the company that Stripe help register in the US be a subsidiary of my
existing company (not registered in the US)?

~~~
michaelschade
Good question! Every company’s situation will be different (which is one of
the reasons we’re working with PwC to provide expert tax guidance and
education). But generally speaking, companies that are incorporated in the US
will need to pay US taxes, and may also pay taxes in their local jurisdiction.

The corporation we help you setup in the US would be a new entity.

~~~
charlesdm
While I applaud the idea, if you don't need to be US based:

1\. It's ridiculous to incorporate in the US, due to ridiculous tax policies;
and

2\. It's a great way to upset local tax authorities + there are probably a ton
of nasty side effects (e.g. some countries have "see through" taxation that
taxes certain profits arriving in foreign entities at the shareholder level,
or require board meetings to be held in the jurisdiction the company is based
in, etc etc)

If you do this, make sure to get advice from local counsel, or it could end up
being a very expensive exercise

~~~
tomp
> 1\. It's ridiculous to incorporate in the US, due to ridiculous tax
> policies; and

What are these ridiculous tax policies? I've often heard complaints about US
taxes for citizens/residents, but nothing yet for companies... (I realize that
many companies choose to incorporate in tax havens to evade taxes; but I'm
mainly interested in knowing how is incorporating in the US worse than
incorporating in e.g. UK, Switzerland, Japan, Australia, Germany, France)

~~~
charlesdm
High corporate taxes + global taxation of profits. For example, any profit
coming from lower taxed subsidiary (i.e. a dividend) will be taxed at the
difference between the local rate and US corporate tax rate. So if you pay 20%
in the UK, you will have to pay an additional 15% (35%-20%) in US tax.

Second, the US is very aggressive when it comes to withholding taxes (FATCA
and all) - if you’re a shareholder living in a country without a decent tax
treaty with the US, you’ll lose an extra 30% on any dividend you declare,
unless you include intermediary structures such as holding companies etc

Now, some of these might not matter that much to a startup since they aren’t
making a profit anyway. But if you build something profitable it will be
relevant for an acquirer. If things are set up properly to pay less tax, they
will pay more for your company.

~~~
tomp
> So if you pay 20% in the UK, you will have to pay an additional 15%
> (35%-20%) in US tax.

To me, this makes sense. Is this different to what other countries do?
Although the corporate tax _does_ seem rather high...

------
glossyscr
While I really like the idea—a one stop-shop company creator I am a bit unsure
if Stripe will achieve the same quality level like dedicated registries which
do this for several years.

Points I am missing/not seeing:

\- Can I decide about the administration location (eg also Delaware or does it
have to be my actual location)?

\- Can I get some virtual office with address, mail forwarding, etc, sometimes
offered by registry?

\- Is Stripe a full state approved registry or do they use 3rd party
registries? What are the ongoing costs (there can be significant differences)?

\- How many people are in customer support?

\- Is Stripe stated as the registrant in the Delaware corp database?

The only advantage I've seen is that Stripe is opening the bank account for
you and it seems you do not have to visit the States but other than that I am
not sure if going all-in with one entity (Stripe) is a bit too risky.

And if looking at dedicated registries there 3-5x more information on their
websites—this is not a clear indicator for quality of service but since this
is not Stripe's core competency it's something I'd be a bit cautious. But
still something Atlas can catch-up.

~~~
michaelschade
> \- Can I decide about the administration location (eg also Delaware or does
> it have to be my actual location)?

> \- Can I get some virtual office with address, mail forwarding, etc,
> sometimes offered by registry?

After incorporation, you’ll have a registered agent in Delaware with a
corresponding address. We’re looking at adding support for incorporation in
other geographies as we expand Atlas.

> \- Is Stripe a full state approved registry or do they use 3rd party
> registries? What are the ongoing costs (there can be significant
> differences)?

We work with a third party service. More on costs here:
[https://stripe.com/atlas/faq#Are-there-any-additional-
costs-...](https://stripe.com/atlas/faq#Are-there-any-additional-costs-I-
should-be-aware-of)

> \- I Striped stated as the registrant in the Delaware corp database?

Nope.

~~~
glossyscr
Michael, Thanks for your quick answers! Highly appreciated!

> Not at the moment, though we're looking at more locations as we continue to
> expand Stripe Atlas

So, it would be Delaware as the administration location, right? (which I would
prefer)

>> \- I Striped stated as the registrant in the Delaware corp database? >
Nope.

So the 3rd party registry would appear there, right?

And it's correct that the customer doesn't have to visit the states for
opening the bank account?

~~~
michaelschade
Yeah, the registered agent address would be in Delaware. The third party
facilitating the incorporation won't show up in the Delaware filings, though
there will be a registered agent and address on file. (You don't need to do
anything to fill that out beyond signing up for Atlas.)

No need to come to the US for the bank account or any other part of the
process.

~~~
glossyscr
> registered agent and address on file

so somebody but not me, right?

~~~
michaelschade
Yep. (Though the incorporator -- you or whomever is signing up -- would also
be listed on the Certificate of Incorporation.)

------
jonhmchan
I absolutely love this idea - it solves for a HUGE pain point that
entrepreneurs have dealing with the logistical, legal, and financial
groundwork for a startup and getting to payments easily. Good lord, if Atlas
were around for me to setup my startup, I would be crying tears of joy.

What I'm confused about is why they didn't focus more on the convenience
advantages and positioned Atlas as a non-geo tied incorporation/setup offer.
As many people have noted, the advantages of doing business as a U.S. company
if you're not in the U.S. is unclear. It seems far more appropriate as a side
note to the much needed advantages of solving a legal, financial, and
accounting nightmare just to get payments. Why emphasize international?

------
qnk
We have already incorporated and has been a long and painfull process, but not
as painfull as trying to open an account at Silicon Valley Bank. After some
back and forth, they rejected our application saying:

    
    
        I’ve just received your info from client support and my
        apologies if no one replied to you sooner.
        Unfortunately we won’t be an appropriate banking fit as
        we don’t typically bank service providers. We maintain
        a focus on venture backed companies and typically teams
        that are local to our presence (based in Silicon
        Valley, SF Bay Area, NYC, Boston, London).
    

Just signed up for the beta, pretty excited about this!

~~~
tempestn
I'm legitimately curious - perhaps I'm missing some intricacy of US banking as
I'm based in Canada - but why do you need a bank based in Silicon Valley
specifically? In the online world, wouldn't any large US-based bank serve?

------
philfrasty
Does this fulfill the requirement from the YC application? „International
founders, please note: if your company is a non-United States entity
(corporation, limited liability company, etc.), your participation in YC is
conditional on conversion of your foreign company into a United States
corporation.“ Could just sell the intellectual property from A to B for a $1.

~~~
hurricaneSlider
Many countries are wise to those types of shenanigans. The convoluted legal
requirements to move our company from South Africa to the UK was astounding,
and we had to abandon our claims to our old IP to boot.

------
lossolo
I did what they do on my own and i am from Europe.

1\. Find delaware agent,
[https://corp.delaware.gov/agents/agts.shtml](https://corp.delaware.gov/agents/agts.shtml)

2\. Get your agent for 50$ a year instead of 150$ that Stripe will give you.

3\. Get bank account in reputable big bank instead of what Stripe propose.

4\. Profit.

------
StriverGuy
This is great. While I am not in need of incorporating any business, I do have
to say that the UI design on Stripe's site is beautiful.

------
nickpp
So let me get this straight: instead of simply incorporating in your own sane
tax country and accepting payments through Avangate or such, you incorporate
in USA and are subjected to high corporate taxed and insane IP laws.

All so that Stripe doesn't have to solve the schlep of sending payments to any
country, a schlep already solved by pretty much any other payment processor
out there...

------
plehoux
> \- Pay federal income tax on income generated in the U.S.

> We strongly recommend that you work with tax and legal experts to handle
> these ongoing requirements. To help, Atlas users get direct access to
> resources and guidance from Orrick and PwC. You can also chat over the phone
> for free with a professional from PwC.

^ from the FAQ, should be in bold characters on the home page.

"tax on income generated in the U.S.", what does income generated in the U.S.
means? Good luck finding an easy answer to this which will satisfy both your
local jurisdiction and the U.S. PwC and the likes thrive because the tax code
is a complicated beast that just get bigger every year.

Apart from raising money in the US, as a Canadian company, I don't see any
advantage to this.

The amount of knowledge needed to deal with those issues clearly makes it
suited to experienced entrepreneurs with the means to get good counselling.

My guess, it's designed for YC founders. :)

------
jasonsync
Does this mean Stripe will phase out the ability for Canadians to accept USD
and deposit funds directly to Canadian banks offering "US fund" accounts (that
are not technically US bank accounts)?

Currently, a Canadian business can accept $USD with Stripe and have it
deposited directly into a Canadian US fund account without conversion to CAD.

Stripes competitors can't do this - and have traditionally told Canadian
businesses that they would have to incorporate in the US, setup a USD bank
account at a US institution, in order to accept USD without conversion back to
CAD.

That process is what Stripe Atlas simplifies.

PayPal allows Canadians to accept USD by holding the funds in a USD PayPal
account. However, getting the funds to a Canadian bank account always involves
converting to CAD.

~~~
reitzensteinm
And that conversion is _expensive_. If I could have back the currency
conversion margins PayPal has charged my businesses throughout my life, I'd
easily be able to live for a year on that money.

Well, 50 weeks, if it were sent to my PayPal account in US dollars :)

~~~
cperciva
You can open a US bank account (I use Harris Bank, since they're owned by BMO)
and withdraw USD from paypal to there. I then write a cheque to move USD
across the border, and use VBCE to convert USD to CAD at market - 35 basis
points (aka. about 2% better than what Paypal offers).

~~~
thesimon
> I then write a cheque to move USD across the border, and use VBCE to convert
> USD to CAD at market - 35 basis points (aka. about 2% better than what
> Paypal offers).

Transferwise might be cheaper/easier

~~~
cperciva
Not even close. Transferwise charges a fee of 0.7%. VBCE is half of that.

------
leosantos
Nice next step would be expanding it to Estonia
([https://e-estonia.com/e-residents/about/](https://e-estonia.com/e-residents/about/))

FYI Braintree allows businesses based in estonia to accept payments.

------
wiradikusuma
I hope someone from Stripe is lurking here. What if I already have a US
company but just want the bank account etc? The reason is, apparently since
9/11, it's a requirement to be in person to open an account.

~~~
ajankovic
I am also interested in this.

------
Confusion
Is this primarily aimed at citizens of the US and countries otherwise not
serviced by Stripe? What could be a reason for me to want this as if I'm, say,
German or Canadian?

~~~
patio11
Germany and Canada are excellent countries to run a business from. Can I pitch
you on the United States? We're a large country with a thriving technology
industry that spends billions of dollars on the thing you sell. We have
thriving capital markets, including a majority of worldwide dollars in seed
stage tech companies, at terms which are better than you will receive anywhere
else. We have millions of very smart engineers available for hire. Doing
business in the United States: a great idea!

Doing business in the US? Do it as an American entity! We're institutionally
equipped to deal with companies from 50 jurisdictions but as soon as you say
GMBH or Euro we get very confused. US companies have huge logistical
difficulties doing international payments relative to domestic payments; you
can find a company with $50 million in the bank whose CFO literally had no
button available to her that could possibly authorize an international wire.
Many routine acts of commerce will require a number from you which any US
entity can get by sneezing and which a foreign entity will take months of
effort to achieve. We have a variety of cultures nationwide; essentially none
of them routinely interact with foreign corporate entities and essentially all
of whom will view those interactions with caution and annoyance rather than
the routinely extended trust and assumption of fair dealing that all domestic
entities enjoy by default.

You will be in great company! (Ba dum bum?) Substantially every German and
Canadian major corporation, and hundreds of thousands of natural German and
Canadian people, choose to use a Us entity so that they can conveniently
interface with public and private US institutions when their business dealings
bring them to the United States.

~~~
petercooper
I want to add a UK-specific viewpoint for anyone with a British business who's
wondering if a US entity is a necessity for dealing with US corporations.

I run a service-oriented business with 10 employees in the UK and most of our
income is from US-based corporations. Externally we work entirely in USD. Once
we determined our tax and legal positions, we've not encountered any problems
with payments, wires, forms (W-8BENI is accepted in place of W-9s), or taxes,
and our customer roster is a couple hundred tech companies - ranging from
F500s with arcane vendor account requirements, through to mid range companies,
startups, and small ISVs.

Trade between the UK and US is common and, depending on what you are trading,
has a low amount of friction due to the UK's relatively open nature and low
level of bureaucracy on matters of banking, international trade and taxation.

(If you sell physical items, need to take on US-based staff, start a US
office, are a low margin business that couldn't take exposure to exchange
rates or cross-border tax volatility, or need to appeal to US investors,
disregard the above and get a US entity! :-))

------
kriro
I might face the decision of incorporating soonish. My current plan was to
just incorporate in my country of residency (Germany) as that's the easiest
route. How hard is it to migrate an existing company to Dalaware-C (D-C) which
seems to be the gold standard for venture backed startups? Or is the
recommended way just becoming a D-C from the getgo?

I'll gladly take tax cliff notes on being incorporated in the US as a non-US
citizen starting a business. Basically if it doesn't screw me tax wise I
wouldn't mind incorporating as a D-C from the getgo. US taxation seems a bit
scary and I don't think it's all that easy to research. Would love some advice
from Germans/people not living in the US that are incorporated in the US.

Between the recent "legal papers" post from YC and this it seems like it's
never been easier to do the non customer facing stuff of a startup. Very good
as this is something I'd worry about way too much.

------
impostervt
I wish you could incorporate an S corp for side projects. C corps need boards
and stuff - a bit much for my hobby projects. But, event for hobby projects,
if I expect to make income (at some point) I usually set up an LLC and maybe
even start a bank account. And I also use Stripe to collect payments.

~~~
zrail
I tend to just use my existing LLC for hobby projects. If any of them actually
take off I'll set up a DBA or maybe another LLC subsidiary. Multiple S corps
seems like overkill.

------
reg29
Stripe I love you. I have been crying my heart out because of the lack of a
payment for the "rest of us".
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10857912](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10857912)

On behalf of many developers, I say THANK YOU.

------
kumarski
I <3 <3 <3 stripe.

But, Silicon Valley bank is not my favorite. They have a history of passing
plain text passwords.

------
amima
While Stripe team is great and it's always good to place all services under
one roof, both registering US corporation and opening US bank account online
is not something new, Harvard Business Services (www.delawareinc.com) had done
company formation for years for startups and the fee is nicer ($250 single
payment + $50/year for registered agent vs Atlas $500 single payment +
$125/year for registered agent). Atlas is twice more expensive, which may be
sensitive for early-stage startups.

We formed a C-corp with HBS. Then opened SVB account for free, printed
standard incorporation docs, got EIN from IRS and opened account with
Braintree (could be Stripe as well), all for free. We just had to use
different websites instead of one, but no additional difficulties.

------
edoceo
Nobody mentioned the shares based tax implications of Delaware Corps.
Surprise! You owe them $50k!

~~~
JDDunn9
What gotchas are you referring to? I thought Delaware was the shell corp state
of choice because of no taxes and laws that favor businesses.

~~~
ogsharkman
He is referring to how the default franchise tax is calculated using the
"Authorized Shares Method" which gives many an MI when they see they owe
$20k+, without realizing you can use the "Assumed Par Value Capital Method"
and your bill suddenly becomes like ~$500.

------
nailer
Here in the UK opening a bank account with SVB involved about 50 pages of
paperwork, and if you make a mistake, re-doing the whole section.

SVB could easily do a web app to help people fill in the important bits, and
mail them a printout to sign, but they haven't.

------
sklivvz1971
This would have a huge impact in Italy where setting up a company is a major
pain point.

That said, I'm pretty sure there are a ton of hidden problems in incorporating
abroad (e.g. if someone sues you, you have to travel).

~~~
davidw
Yeah, you'd need to talk about it with an accountant and maybe lawyer before
doing so, but it could work out very well for some people.

------
tedmiston
Global Accelerator Network (GAN) is listed as part of the Stripe Atlas
Network. Does this mean that if we are connected to one of the accelerators in
the GAN, that we have access?

~~~
michaelschade
Yep!

------
nodesocket
I use Silicon Valley Bank and honestly while they are by far the most popular
choice for bay area companies, their online portal is atrocious. In-fact, I
exclusively use their iOS app ([https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/silicon-
valley-bank-mobile/i...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/silicon-valley-bank-
mobile/id580659297?mt=8)) since it is the only thing that is bearable.

------
tedmiston
I wish this fee were made more clear upfront.

> What fees will be charged for my bank account?

> Silicon Valley Bank will waive account maintenance fees for the first 24
> months. SVB will share more details about your account’s complete fee
> schedule and functionality once your bank account is open.

[https://stripe.com/atlas/faq#What-fees-will-be-charged-
for-m...](https://stripe.com/atlas/faq#What-fees-will-be-charged-for-my-bank-
account)

------
zekevermillion
The purpose of incorporating in the US is just to facilitate opening a US bank
account. Given the likely very different circumstances of Atlas members, DE is
a reasonable choice that would cause the fewest problems for participants. I
do wonder what kind of payment volume is reasonable before it makes sense to
touch the US. Also if I am building on top of Stripe as an essential vendor,
do I want them to control my very corporate structure itself? Hm...

------
vruiz
This almost seems too good to be true. What's the catch?

~~~
Wintamute
No catch maybe, but Stripe siphon off 2.9% of global startup profits into a US
company. Sounds like a great business idea to me :-)

~~~
tomp
You have to compare that to fees that other credit card providers would
charge.

~~~
Wintamute
Yeh sure. I've no beef with it. Just trying to make the point that when Stripe
are making 2.9% there doesn't need to be a catch.

------
elvis635
I read from the faq that there are tax and legal obligations, that there are
some guides and a free call, and that there won't be any ongoing assistance
unless Orrick and PwC are hired.

Do you have any experience with them? Do you suggest any other service that
would help on this? A while ago I found tempcfo (used by stripe itself, slack,
and others) and indinero, I wonder if they could help on the ongoing
assistance and which is the best option

------
bootload
_" Once you’re invited to Stripe Atlas, you’ll provide us with some more
information about your product, team, and how you’d like to set up your new
company (like the name!)."_

From the FAQ, [0] Is Stripe creating a startup incubator?

[0] How Does it Work? [https://stripe.com/atlas/faq#How-does-it-
work](https://stripe.com/atlas/faq#How-does-it-work)

------
tosh
I'm really excited about Stripe Atlas, I just hope they will establish it as
an independently branded product going forward.

Edit: wrote some thoughts on it on Medium: [https://medium.com/@__tosh/stripe-
atlas-and-the-trap-of-bran...](https://medium.com/@__tosh/stripe-atlas-and-
the-trap-of-brand-extension-4eb158569a37)

------
lexap
In terms of the startup incorporation, how does this compare to Clerky? As a
pre-incorporation startup based in CA, which is preferable?

~~~
swampthing
This is really optimized for startups outside of the US, which often have
trouble setting up US bank accounts (and thus using Stripe). As a result, the
legal side of things gets you far enough to do that - but doesn't cover the
whole company formation process like we do.

~~~
lexap
Thanks. Would be awesome if Clerky and Stripe combined forces to provide a
one-stop shop for US startups for incorporation docs and setting up bank
accounts.

------
lukasm
A tutorial that I wrote a while ago "How to get Individual Taxpayer
Identification Number (ITIN) if you are not a U.S. citizen"

[http://lukasz-madon.github.io/how-to-get-individual-
taxpayer...](http://lukasz-madon.github.io/how-to-get-individual-taxpayer-
identification-number-itin-if-you-are-not-a-u-s-citizen/)

------
tommynicholas
Our batch at Techstars was almost have foreign companies, and it was amazing
to watch how much they struggled with this issue. Many of them could not put
their investments in the bank until the program was almost over because of
unexpected bureaucratic nightmares. Had that been the case for us, we could
not have done the program. Huge barrier. Excited for this!

------
rjurney
This is the kind of breakthrough product that makes a real difference in the
world. This is what real innovation looks like.

------
aprdm
Wow this is simply amazing! I would love to be able to use Stripe in Brazil
and that seems to make it possible!

Must be a headache legally tho

~~~
michaelschade
If it's more convenient for you to setup everything locally, good news: we
also have a beta going in Brazil! You can sign up for an invite at
[https://stripe.com/global#br](https://stripe.com/global#br) and we'll send
one as soon as we can.

------
conductr
"SVB will share more details about your account’s complete fee schedule and
functionality once your bank account is open."

no deal

------
abalone
Dumb question: Why is this positioned mainly for non-U.S. entrepreneurs? Isn't
a $500 setup kit useful for U.S. startups too?

You get: $15,000 of AWS credits, easy incorporation & bank account setup,
tax/legal advice. Even if you don't ever take a consumer payment, that seems
useful (even if only for the AWS credits!). No?

~~~
michaelschade
Not a bad question! We see the biggest need in non-US markets, especially for
banking, but think it's great if Atlas ends up helping US entrepreneurs too!

------
chinathrow
I don't see the novelty. Honestly, haven't there been dozens if not more
companies around helping you to set up a DC corp? And once that is complete,
you're free to join any payment processor taking in US corps?

I am curious - what is really new here, except that it's done by a well known
payment processor?

------
sinzone
This is huge, I had to fly from Europe myself just to open a bank account
(before the 9/11 you could do it online). Stripe Atlas opens a business bank
account for you with Silicon Valley Bank, the world’s leading bank for tech
companies. There’s no need to visit a bank branch in person to get set up.

------
abalone
Wow, $15K in AWS credits for $500. Until now the AWS startup program has only
offered that to select accelerators and funds.

Stripe seems to be positioning his as targeted at emerging markets. But it
also seems like a good value for self-starter U.S. based companies that are
not in accelerators.

------
peterjancelis
Amazing service. Hope to see Atlas expand to Nevada LLCs or (one can dream)
Hong Kong Ltd's soon.

------
simonebrunozzi
TL;DR here: [https://github.com/simonebrunozzi/MNMN/blob/master/Weekly-
Su...](https://github.com/simonebrunozzi/MNMN/blob/master/Weekly-
Summaries/2016-10.md#1-stripe-atlas)

------
norswap
As an internet business which is note based in the US, why would I want to
incorporate in the US?

------
Mikho
What a clever customer acquisition hack from Stripe by basic document workflow
automation: customers pay themselves to get in and become clients(hence, CAC
is really small if any), and later pay for every single transaction to Stripe.
Brilliant.

------
imron
Dear Stripe UX/Design team, please consider whether light grey text on a light
grey background is a good idea. See:
[http://contrastrebellion.com/](http://contrastrebellion.com/)

------
smpetrey
The front-end is strong with this one. Stripe is always on their A-game. very
nice.

------
vermontdevil
I wonder how this compares with Estonia's E-Residency

[https://e-estonia.com/e-residents/about/](https://e-estonia.com/e-residents/about/)

~~~
kintamanimatt
Estonian e-residency isn't the same. Stripe Atlas is a nearly end-to-end
service for establishing a US company with a bank account and tax number.

The Estonian e-residency on the other hand is essentially a just digital ID
card that can be used to authenticate yourself when you're transacting with
the Estonian government or other select institutions, like banks. E-residency
isn't a one-stop shop to setting up an Estonian company and bank account, just
the means to authenticate yourself more easily while doing it yourself. (Not
that it's hard.)

~~~
vermontdevil
Great thanks. This helps.

------
pbnjay
Very interesting. It almost reads like it's oriented to first-time businesses,
but makes almost no mention that a Delaware company is probably overkill for
most people starting out.

------
juanrossi
I hope this works and can be done in a massive way.

Being from outside the US, it's hard to start a company there and create a
bank account without spending thousands of dollars to travel there.

------
jscott0918
This is really cool. Basically "Startup as a Service"

~~~
mlkmt
yeah, it's similar to what [https://bitcorps.co/](https://bitcorps.co/) is
doing too

------
roschdal
Just wondering, could I use Stripe Atlas to incorporate a U.S. company, when I
live in Norway?

For example, could I use this to create a U.S. holding company to own and
trade US stocks?

~~~
michaelschade
Atlas is focused on making it easy for entrepreneurs in emerging markets to
make their startups available to a global audience for day one. It won't be
useful for things like trading stocks here in the US.

As for Norway, we're actually live already! You can start accepting payments
today:
[https://dashboard.stripe.com/register?country=NO](https://dashboard.stripe.com/register?country=NO).

------
edpichler
Last year I traveled to another country (Australia) just to have a Stripe
account to use on my startup. Stripe is awesome.

Atlas is something I really need. I can't hardly wait.

------
melvinmt
If you can't bring your product to every part of the world, bring every part
of the world to you. Pretty impressive of the Stripe team, I must say.

------
wj
If you use AWS is there any reason not to sign up for this? $15,000 in credits
for $500? And I believe somebody commented that they don't expire?

------
max_
Atlas is going to do with stripe what Bitcoin already achieved, and Paypal
stubbornly refused to implement: Worldwide availability. Good work stripe!!

------
alberth
Seems like clerky.com should be offering this as well.

------
mrfusion
Are there tax issues with Delaware llcs? I feel like I've read about people
getting hit with huge deleware tax bills out of the blue?

~~~
michaelschade
There are tax obligations you'll need to take into account. We've partnered
with PwC to help give you guidance from a US perspective. We've put together a
bit more info on the costs here:

[https://stripe.com/atlas/faq#Are-there-any-additional-
costs-...](https://stripe.com/atlas/faq#Are-there-any-additional-costs-I-
should-be-aware-of)

------
PaulHoule
Great, all we need is more corporations registered in Delaware, which is
already the only state with more corporations than people.

------
mnml_
A lot of accounting companies have been offering this service for a while now
for similar pricing. Stripe is better at marketing tho.

------
jimbunnay
I'm a UK citizen, so I'm wondering if I do this, would I then be able to
qualify for a visa to live and work in the US?

~~~
kintamanimatt
No, not directly. Briefly, your two best options probably include E-1 (treaty
trader) and E-2 (treaty investor). Both come with their issues and
restrictions, but they're a common path so long as you either have substantial
trade between your home country and the US, or have a certain amount to invest
in a US business (generally north of $200k, although this isn't technically a
hard requirement).

Have a read through the notes to the relevant sections of 9 FAM.

------
flashm
I always wonder with things like this, when will we be able (with an online
business) to essentially say that your business has no fixed abode, and
therefore you won't be paying any country any tax.

If everyone was using bitcoin or some other anonymous currency it would be
pretty straightforward assuming that was how you took payments.

Your only trouble would be remitting money into your own tax jurisdiction -
but then you may not have one of those either, assuming your were floating
about the world.

------
amalag
From their FAQ:

>At a minimum, you’ll have to pay U.S. federal income taxes on your U.S.
income, and pay the Delaware Franchise tax every year.

------
dansorensen712
I've already recommended the Atlas to all my friends who are starting and have
started a business. What a great solution.

------
flexie
Great with the payment solution. But why would anyone want to pay US corporate
tax, US accountants etc. - often on top of the local tax, local accountant
etc?

Don't forget that many other countries would still regard the "Stripe Atlas
company" as taxable in their local country if the company is actually run from
the local country or has offices in the local country. So from day one you
would have to deal with international taxation, double taxation etc.

~~~
michaelschade
Talented entrepreneurs from all over the world want to start a business, but
not all the countries these entrepreneurs are in have access to the business
and banking infrastructure entrepreneurs need to establish a company that's
global from day one.

Incorporating in the US, for example, allows companies to issue stock to
employees, makes it easy to raise money from global investors, and provides
the stability of clear corporate rules and case law. (This is why 60% of the
Fortune 500 are incorporated in Delaware). There are also many more business
services available to US companies than might otherwise be available to
companies based in smaller countries with emerging economies.

So while you're right that there are taxes and other things that come into
play when running a business, we find people are already coming up against
these roadblocks today -- we built Atlas to reduce this complexity. We hope to
see more businesses started because of this.

------
jimbunnay
I'm a UK citizen, if I do this, would I then be able to qualify for a visa to
live and do business in the US?

~~~
bing_dai
I am not from Stripe, but my guess is "absolutely no":)

On the other hand, I do wonder if one day a startup will be able to offer one-
click business, residential, or tourist Visas. "Visa-as-a-Service".

------
alecsmart1
Am wondering if anyone is aware of the tax implications? Do taxes have to be
paid in US and local country as well?

------
dataker
In the prohibited items, it lists:

>Personal computer technical support

Is there any reason for that? Also, are freelancers in that category?

------
rglover
Relatively inexpensive and looks hassle free. Stripe, you're a gem. Hope this
works out well!

------
nedwin
Minor point but surprised that for such a major release the site isn't mobile
optimised.

------
Geee
Why should I want to incorporate in the US, if I'm European SaaS startup?

~~~
stephen_g
For my company in Australia, I'm thinking of making a US subsidiary because
it's the easiest way to get a US bank account, so I don't have to pay fees
from Stripe for currency conversion to accept US dollars. Also, it would let
me accept ACH payments from US customers which is nice.

Next, as I'm doing some hardware stuff and buy parts from distributors in the
US, it could save more in currency conversion rates there as well. Just need
to talk to someone about how to do that legally (transfer pricing).

If I use Atlas, I'll probably wait for them to support LLCs because I think
that would be a lot better for my uses.

Finally, incorporating the business in the US would good for founders wanting
to take funds from US investors (but my startup is bootstrapped so I'm not
really interested in that).

------
akoumjian
Wasn't there another company or two that just did specifically this?

------
aps-sids
Why do developers forget/ignore css rules for firefox? ;_;

------
edpichler
I've being waiting for something like this for years.

------
kin
Just wanted to chime in and say that page load was sexy.

------
jedisct1
This is huge. Kudos to Stripe for setting this up.

------
winter_blue
It would be wonderful if they could provided incorporation in the Cayman
Islands or some jurisdiction without corporate income taxes, so that you don't
get double taxed.

~~~
ececconi
That's why you pay yourself a salary right?

------
Kinnard
My first thought is to contrast this with Bitcoin which really is Internet
money. It's delocalized by default.

~~~
vonklaus
Ethereum to be honest. I stated this elsewhere but PC isn't dumb and has a lot
more data points than I do, although I consider myself someone who knows(maybe
incorrectly) a bit about how these things seem to be moving.

Obviously, it would be insanely difficult to de-risk that, but I also assume
that some of their assumptions are:

* [x]coin is a solved problem, as it transacts globally by default and has an API already.

OR

* [x]coins aren't there yet, super risky, and for the foreseeable future remain difficult and cumbersome to use programmatically so we will internally build some of that tooling and wait for less risk and hire adoption.

AND

* People, like previous versions of us(from p/j/collisons perspective) need this now and it is a huge pain point for many to do business internationally.

* Even in country this is totally full on wacky.

So, I don't think it is congnitive dissonance to believe both these things,
and in fact we are over predicting here. That is why I am put out. Not because
of anything Stripe did, but because I think they could be correct about how
long this transition will take.

------
bbrez1
This is a huge game changer.

------
vonklaus
Few Nice Words about Stripe before the "But"

\------------------------------------------------

The Stripe team straddle technology, trust and finance at scale. I have seen
almost every interview PC has done and the insights the guy brings up are
super interesting and he is a lot more measured than most people, and it seems
to be true that he is also a lot more correct. Super smart team, super smart
vision, seem to have great integrity and provide opportunity to many people.
This focus on "building roads while everyone else is building cars" has been
really mutually beneficial to the ecosystem.

The "But"

\--------------------

To reflect breifly on how Stripe frames itself, their data points, and just
the general caliber of the people there lead me to believe this is the best
way to solve global commerce. I suspect they have given it quite a bit of
thought, and the move seems to be unite all of the things in one place. In the
narrative analogy, what about electric vehicles?

On one hand, alternative currency and technology companies have the luxury of,
they themselves, being an infrastructure to allow for distributed global
commerce, a new framework for growth, and the natural rise of the global
internet company unbound by arbitrary lines drawn when imperialist did the
carve out of the world. On the other hand, I would have loved to see a
structure to derisk, a company and allow them to trade internationally with
some semblance of compliance _and also speed a structure where a company
registers a business as the domain_.

Stripe assuredly knows that Ethereum, BTC and Blockchain are super important,
and in many ways, solve the problem Stripe sent out to fix. Possibly with a
better framework. I think the Atlas program is great, a net good, and a
phenomenal way to solve what(as a US citizen I luckily haven't been subjected
to) is a huge painpoint of just selling into America, trying to work in
America, and the regulatory complexity of that shitshow.

I am a bit bummed because Stripe is often correct, and while I suspect to some
extent it is tough to de-risk this, they just see the timeline being much
longer than I do. They're probably right, I am looking at it at the "S" bend
of technology adoption, and they are looking at it from a corporate
standpoint.

Just sucks that centralizing all of these new companies into the USA ends up
being the best way. I have to hand it to the Stripe guys/gals, this was such a
feat of complex coordination that it is absolutely staggering they were able
to manage several verticals of beurocratic inertia in parallel like this. I
work in fintech where one of the guys in the accelerator I was talking to
today was explaining how we might need a quick restructure of a few
assumptions, he explained his implementation like this:

The API ends up _literally_ being a call. You call a _human_ for credit
appraisal, the backend has the data and his system has a rest API for fetching
and pushing data, and still a human reads the huge red text: "please copy and
paste from [othersystem name] & hit enter", then his system generates all the
regulatory compliance stuff and all the actually useful stuff needed, but a
human is in the loop because it is too complicated for the internal dev team
to allow (or to post) the fucking data.

* Sales team loves this process innovation.

* Friend responded (as I am assuming everyone is thinking) that it is NOT regulatory hurdle, purely tech.

* You have heard of this bank.

So kudos to Stripe, awesome job, complexity is immense and I am sure this
could be life changing for many. I would still love to see them embrace
something like Ethereum near-term, but congrats.

------
sagivo
they aim to help global community of entrepreneurs but it is tailored for the
specific silicon-valley community.

\- c-corp only - investors in the valley work with it mostly. even though for
MOST of the businesses s-corp or LLC will be better.

\- silicon valley bank - is very popular in the valley, but has limited
support if you're outside as opposed to more popular banks. (transfer fees,
integrations with other providers like payroll etc)

i like the idea, but they have to think outside of their valley scope to
really help people worldwide.

~~~
michaelschade
Yeah, you're right: C Corps won't be a perfect fit for every company, though
we found they were the right starting place for the beta based on what what
people are already doing. We're looking to add support for LLCs:
[https://stripe.com/atlas/faq#Can-Stripe-help-me-set-up-a-
dif...](https://stripe.com/atlas/faq#Can-Stripe-help-me-set-up-a-different-
company-structure).

We've worked closely with Silicon Valley Bank to make the setup tenable for
entrepreneurs in emerging markets. Making it easy to start a business from
outside the US is the point of this program, and we're looking forward to
making more improvements as we work closely with more entrepreneurs outside
the US during the beta and continue expanding Atlas globally.

Thanks for the feedback! If you end up taking part in the beta, we'd love to
hear more about how it works for you in practice.

------
dschiptsov
Facebook for payments? Very clever.

And they should make a Chinese landing page.

------
persusta
Not only that, but Larry Summers wants to abolish cash so that banks and
governments get to loot us whenever they want to, and monitor _all_ of our
transactions: [http://www.campaignforliberty.org/war-
cash](http://www.campaignforliberty.org/war-cash)

Remember the Cyprus "bail-in"? Greece's bank holiday?

~~~
dang
We detached this comment from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11167178](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11167178)
and marked it off-topic.

------
StripeNoGood
Funny, I have a Delaware LLC company registered in USA (it's an offshore
company) but my bank account is outside the US (completely legal), yet Stripe
denies me right to open an account and accept the payments.

Now I read about this Atlas, what a hypocrisy...

I happily use PayPal since then.

~~~
mtmail
It's a step in the right direction.

It would be hypocrisy if they claimed one thing and then did/acted another.
Non-US bank accounts are listed in their FAQ and their general policy (not
supported, use a US bankaccount as proxy) remains the same.

I hope Stripe changes their policy in the future (though you would have to
rename your HN username then).

------
bigpoppa
well, im not impressed. stripe took it 80% the way there, they left out
logistics.

freight, customs and last mile are the most expensive and complicated factors
of global physical ecommerce.

where is the stripe solution to simplify that?

~~~
prodmerc
[https://www.shipwire.com/](https://www.shipwire.com/) ?

