
'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record - danso
https://mashable.com/article/super-mario-bros-world-record/
======
mrob
>When Kosmic says he's tied with the TAS run at 4-1, that means his inputs are
matched up exactly with the program's and he can't physically do any better.

It means he can't physically get a better time, but it does not mean his
inputs are matched up exactly with the TAS. SMB1 level transitions are based
around the "frame rule", which means you don't advance to the next level until
the number of elapsed frames from the start of that level is a multiple of 21.
This means it's possible to have slightly imperfect input on all levels except
8-4 (the last level, so no waiting to advance to the next level there) and
still get the same time as the TAS (unless the TAS reached the end of the
level with no frames to spare). The TAS aims to reach the end of each level as
fast as possible even if it would mean no overall time saving because of the
wait for the multiple of 21 frames.

I think this mechanic has been very beneficial for speedrunning, because it
gives clear sub-goals. When you hear runners talking about "saving a frame
rule", that means reaching the end of the level in time for an earlier
multiple of 21 frames.

~~~
ilitirit
> It means he can't physically get a better time

... _using the same techniques the TAS does_.

It's possible (although unlikely) that a new glitch/exploit could be
discovered that allows for faster times.

~~~
kchoudhu
I thought glitches were not allowed?

~~~
astura
Speed runner come up with different "categories" for runs.

The most common is "Any %," also the most basic, it means finish the game,
usually anything goes, glitch away.

You can also have no glitches category, 100% complete, no warps, no powerups,
all <game item>s, etc. Sky's the limit. The community creates the categories.

~~~
PurpleBoxDragon
My favorite are randomized speed runs, where everyone gets the same randomized
version and have to speed run it against each other. Normally these are done
as real time races and the results of the randomization aren't known to the
player until they start. Not all games support it (think games like Zelda and
Metroid where you have to collect powerups to push get past obstacles to
collect more powerups to get past more obstacles). The randomizer has to make
sure the game is still beatable (so no locking a required item behind an
obstacle that requires the item). It is also an area that TAS can't help and
it has more to do with strategy than physical perfect button presses. Also,
since every time you uncover a new randomized item it changes what is the most
potential optimized path, it require a deeper knowledge of the game compared
to speed running where there is normally a given optimized path that people
compete against.

~~~
0x8BADF00D
> Not all games support it (think games like Zelda and Metroid where you have
> to collect powerups to push get past obstacles to collect more powerups to
> get past more obstacles).

There is, however, OoT Randomizer[1] which is really fun to play and watch.
You can get end stage items at the beginning depending on your seed.

[1] [https://github.com/AmazingAmpharos/OoT-
Randomizer](https://github.com/AmazingAmpharos/OoT-Randomizer)

~~~
PurpleBoxDragon
I just realized I worded that poorly. I meant that games like Zelda and
Metroid do support it, other games don't because there isn't much to randomize
(such as platformers, given these tools generally can't create random levels,
just swap item locations).

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pattle
If anyone is interested in speed runs I really recommend this YouTube channel

[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtUbO6rBht0daVIOGML3c8w](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtUbO6rBht0daVIOGML3c8w)

Thy're a series of videos on how world records have been lowered over time on
various games. It's fascinating watching particularity the one on Super Mario
64

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7ePi38LnrA&t=16s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7ePi38LnrA&t=16s)

~~~
kchoudhu
Did you ever see this one?

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpk2tdsPh0A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpk2tdsPh0A)

This guy literally has a PhD in SM64. It's insanely complicated, and
surprisingly lucid.

~~~
kibwen
This video is legendary. It's like sitting in on a university course on the
technical details of the physics and programming in Mario 64.

~~~
kchoudhu
I tend to skip around videos.

When it went from "exploit this glitch" to a graph of "registering p-q
alignment", I knew I would have to slow down and watch the entire thing.

Boy am I glad I did.

~~~
jhinra
Ditto! pannenkoek2012 is operating at a level that every hacker should aspire
to. Piecing together that solution for that star in 0.5 A presses is a thing
of beauty.

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dzdt
There is something amazing about artforms when the performers and spectators
have an appreciation for the subtlest details. Mario speedruns are an oddball
artform surely, but right now it has enough of a community to appreciate those
details. For example, from the article I gather to "clip the wall to warp into
the first level of world four" is a well-known and discussed precision move in
the genre.

It reminds me a lot of classical ballet. There the moves and forms have been
developed over centuries. As a non-expert I can go to a show and see they
dance beautifully. An expert may be disappointed by the same performance --
were the hands poised just so; were the movements optimally precise?

It takes a lot of feedback between knowledgeable fans and expert performers to
push an artform to its highest levels of excellence.

~~~
colordrops
Naw, clipping the wall is taking advantage of a well known intentionally
created bug where you walk through a wall to get to an area to skip levels.
Every kid playing the game back in the 80s knew about it.

~~~
la_oveja
i think you're referring simply to the warp zones, which are accessible with
normal jumps. With wall clipping you don't go on top the wall, you go through
it. See 1:10 and 2:04 on his video:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gum4GI2Jr0s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gum4GI2Jr0s)

~~~
jancsika
No, I think he's referring to the technique of wall clipping you can use
toward the end of 1-2 before you take the pipe back out to the flag.

Back in the 80s/90s kids would show how you could clip through the wall to the
warp zone for two purposes:

1\. as an alternative to jumping from the platform to the top of the screen.

2\. More importantly, to get to level -1. You can do this because clipping
through the wall Mario can arrive at the first warp zone pipe before the game
registers that pipe as one of the labeled warp zone pipes. If you instead walk
to the warp zone from the top of the screen Mario has to go all the way to the
left before dropping down. And that would trigger the normal warp zones
everyone is familiar with.

What the speed runners are doing is understanding the mechanics of wall
clipping on a much deeper level. Rather than doing it to make Mario "moonwalk"
or reach a special warp zone, they do it to push Mario forward on the screen.
This allows them to do stuff like "wrong warp" and shave some frames off of
their time to beat the game faster.

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dinoqqq
Here is the video that explains how he did it.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw)

Incredible how many hidden tricks/bugs/calculations went into that world
record.

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lysp
A great explanation of all the tricks used is this video here:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw)

They basically go through Kosmic's (4:56.462 WR) run earlier in the year.

Showing a few replays explaining each of the tricks/techniques used.

There are quite a lot of places where you literally need to be perfect to the
pixel to get a good run.

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danso
Explanatory comment from main r/speedrun thread:

[https://np.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/9ip34a/455_by_kosm...](https://np.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/9ip34a/455_by_kosmic_smb1_wr_attempt_number_9/e6lfgwl/)

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tribby
super impressive stuff. I'm generally unfamiliar with speedrunning, but I am
familiar with the billy mitchell controversies, so I'm surprised that people
accept the legitimacy of streamed runs. wouldn't it be trivial-enough to fake?

tangental: my personal favorite mario-related feat is sethbling injecting
flappy bird into super mario world manually:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6eY73sLV0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6eY73sLV0)

~~~
Hattes
To an extent I think that streaming has solved this problem, compared to the
days of people just submitting videos that they recorded by themselves.
Streamers might fake a single run to get a record, but it would be a huge
amount of work to fake all the progression they had to go through to get
there.

~~~
wild_preference
This just isn't true. Recently there was a Super Meat Boy cheater who was
discovered due to analysis of a persistent animation across the game that
wasn't lining up due to video cuts.

Pretty flimsy system (and far from "solved"), and it lets cheaters steal glory
for the months or years it takes to catch them which threatens the legitimacy
of the sport past a critical mass.

Moderators/judges are on the wrong side of a trapdoor function because of the
amount of analysis it may take to verify a single video, and they aren't
professionals in the field of video analysis.

I don't see how "all progression" is relevant here since you don't need to be
a streamer to speedrun much less to submit a well-doctored video with a time
that beats other people.

~~~
Hattes
I know of the Super Meat Boy example (I've seen the Apollo Legend videos too).
Was that run streamed live?

~~~
wild_preference
don't know, but my point is that it took a rather serendipitous global
animation to expose them. There are people who think speed runs should require
footage of the controller for the sake of a consistent analysis medium, and
I'm sympathetic to them for the sake of the legitimacy of the sport at the
expense of accessibility.

And to respond to your question, you can livestream a pre-recorded video so it
doesn't matter. Some guy livestreamed a record breaking run of Yoshi's island
or something but got cocky and streamed his controller, and someone trivially
discovered he was miming it, pressing or skipping inputs after they were seen
in the video. The Super Meat Boy wasn't doing that.

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dabeeeenster
This is a super interesting video about how things work internally - really
fascinating.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw&t=3s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw&t=3s)

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RGamma
The current world record in tool-assisted speedrunning is at
[http://tasvideos.org/1715M.html](http://tasvideos.org/1715M.html) beating the
game in 4:54.03 (RTA timing, measured from start menu) or 04:57.31 (TAS
timing, measured from console power-on)

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jancsika
Anyone have a link to the explanation someone did to explain the 21-frame
event callbacks in terms of a bus stop?

I thought it was pretty clever.

~~~
I-M-S
[https://youtu.be/i1AHCaokqhg?t=10m47s](https://youtu.be/i1AHCaokqhg?t=10m47s)

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rofo1
Here's a Half-Life 1 speed run (best time afaik):
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtI5HM7GVGY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtI5HM7GVGY)

I can't even begin to describe how much skill and movement precision is in
this video :)

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dzek69
On the video I see pausing of the timer on 0:36 (video time, not timer time).
What's going on there?

~~~
daxterspeed
In the top left of the video feed there's supposed to be an active input
display (showing what buttons are being pressed on the controller). At this
point in the video he fixes the input display, causing the capture of the
timer to stagger a little bit.

As you'll notice by the end of the video the timer doesn't actually display
4:55.913, even though that's his record time - this is because the entire run
has been re-timed (more accurately) after the record was set.

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
How did he know, live, that he'd beaten the time?

~~~
danso
I had wondered about this too and asked about it in r/speedruns [0] I
originally assumed that speedrunners used some kind of special
software/hardware that provide the watch counters displayed during their
streams, but apparently, the displayed timer is controlled manually, via
something like a foot pedal, and is not meant to be the official time (which
is verified later through analysis)

But for a game like SMB, in which there is a hardcoded "window" (the 21-frame
rule), it seems like it's fairly easy for a speedrunner to know if they've
performed optimally when they finish each level.

[0]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/9iturn/super_mario_b...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/9iturn/super_mario_bros_speedrunner_hits_nearly_inhuman/e6mn2bk/)

Helpful comment:

> _Additionally for Super Mario Bros. there is a thing called the frame rule
> that basically means that you can only beat a level (except the last level)
> on certain frames. If you beat the level before the frame rule then the game
> waits until the next frame rule before starting the next level. It 's
> something like every 20 frames, I'm not exactly sure. So for most of the
> levels you only really need to know which frame rule you hit, which is
> fairly easy even with manual timing. The end of the last level needs to be
> measured precisely though._

~~~
breakingcups
Actually, the special software you describe does exist and is often used in
speedrunning. It is called an autosplitter.

It works by reading out known memory addresses of the game. At bare minimum
this would be "start of level 1" and "game completion" but you'll often find
more elaborate "splits" as the more popular the game is.

See this for an example:
[https://imgur.com/a/KDp7YFx](https://imgur.com/a/KDp7YFx)

It shows the last three missions, the timestamp when it was completed and a
comparison agains this speedrunners personal best.

It also shows the current mission and the one after that, along with a
timestamp of when it was finished in the speedrunners personal best run.

Beneath that it also shows a whole bunch of stats, what the best possible time
is the speedrunner could achieve at current pace based on all the best times
in the earlier runs, how it compares to the world record, etc.

This works really well for PC games and emulators but is a lot harder on real
hardware.

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foobaw
Can't wait until I see new exploits!

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artsyxxx
Is this an emulator run?

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nsmith14
How much time until it's proven he cheated? I give it one year.

(This comment is in jest, but that has been my experience with the
speedrunning community thus far.)

~~~
guipsp
Kosmic is a seasoned speedrunner. I highly doubt he's cheating.

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Dowwie
This trivializes my childhood accomplishment. I don't like it!

It blows my mind how speed runners learn to exploit the inner workings of a
game, from timing hacks of the RNG to positioning actors on the screen to
unlock design weaknesses. While it takes a lot of skill and many hours of
practice to pull off these exploits, advancing through a game at record speeds
through exploits takes away from the experience that was intended for play.
Speedrunning is not playing the game better but rather playing exploits
better.

~~~
adrianN
It's a different game that uses the same cartidge. I don't think you should
think of it as taking away from the experience, it rather adds another aspect
of the game that you can enjoy.

