
Kindle and Nook readers bash high e-book pricing with angry one-star reviews - sunsai
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-18438_7-20051201-82.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20
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thalur
I have no probelem with people leaving 1* reviews without reading the book,
just like I have no problem with Amazon removing those reviews (and only those
reviews). Yes they are annoying, but they are also one of the few _visible_
ways to protest. While "not buying the book" will probably be effective in the
long term, an indivudial non-purchase isn't going to be noticed by anyone.

A similar situation to this frequently arises when big games are released on
Steam. Amazon then gets flooded by 1* reviews from people who can't get Steam
to work properly on release day or something.

I also find the opposite very annoying: when fans rate something as 5* before
it's even released.

~~~
detst
> I also find the opposite very annoying: when fans rate something as 5*
> before it's even released.

I've received early copies of books with the hope that I would review it
early.

But I don't often look at Amazon reviews so I don't know if this would fully
account for what you're talking about.

~~~
thalur
I was thinking of reviews along the lines of "I'm sure this will be great. 5*"
I'm not sure if I've seen any like that on Amazon though, now that I think
about it.

~~~
PagingCraig
Tim Ferriss' new book had some 5* reviews go up with people saying they had
only read the first 15 pages, etc etc

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cletus
Sadly, Apple is largely to blame for this mess. Well, if you ignore the
publishers.

Ebooks started as a wholesale pricing model. The publishers would sell them to
the likes of Amazon at some fixed price. Amazon would then set their own
price. This is very similar to the brick-and-mortar pricing model. In some
cases Amazon would sell those books at a loss in an effort to grow the Kindle
platform.

Publishers didn't like this system because they saw cheap prices as devaluing
their content. Publishers are also caught in a backwards mindset where they
think if the physical book costs $25 then the ebook should cost $25 even
though the latter has no printing or distribution costs.

What's more, even if those costs were the same, ebooks should still cost less
because there is no resale market, a fact that digital content publishers seem
to ignore.

But Apple's iBooks came along and not only gave the publishers what they want,
they _required_ it. And that is the agency model, which allows the publishers
to set the price, a move I argue is anticompetitive.

This put Amazon under pressure and the publishers got their way so the pricing
is now largely out of Amazon's hands (sadly).

Review bombing is an interesting tactic, one I actually support if done for
the right reasons. It was done on the PC game Spore for its ridiculous DRM
(initially a limit of 2 (?) activations before EA relented).

What publishers--and in fact all digital content producers--are doing with
pricing and DRM is beyond a joke. Sadly the Obama administration (the DoJ in
particular) is filling with ex-RIAA lawyers so you know which way the wind is
blowing there.

At the same time we have the RIAA/MPAA behind closed doors (with the
government as willing accomplices) trying to equate downloading a song with
terrorism (eg ACTA) in terms of enforcement priorities.

~~~
tptacek
This economic analysis is interesting (seriously!). But it is also facile.
Yes, ebooks are worth "less" because they can't be resold. but they may be
worth more, and maybe significantly more, because they are much more
convenient. Durability, resellability, and convenience are benefits. If you
need the first two, you can buy paper. You are not entitled to dictate that
convenience can't cost 2x (durability + resellability). That's the market's
job.

And, like it or not, "bombing" review sites isn't a market action. The market
works by price discovery, not application of force.

~~~
hotlikearobot
To be fair, "bombing" review sites is entirely a market action. The market
works through information. The most common way that information is
disseminated is through prices, but that doesn't mean it is the only way.
Reviews, etc, allow one to more accurately decide how to value something.

~~~
originalgeek
I'm not sure whether reviews qualify as a market action; what action comes as
a result of a review? It could go either way as the interpretation of the
review is up to the reader of the review. It seems that ebooks sales are
causing more action than the reviews. And I'll add my anecdote: my view is the
negative reviewers don't understand the concept of premium cost for premium
access.

~~~
orangecat
_I'm not sure whether reviews qualify as a market action_

Sure they do. Markets need informed buyers to function well.

~~~
tptacek
I agree completely, so, artificially pumping review sites full of reviews by
people who haven't actually read the book as a protest movement doesn't seem
like a market-improving action to me.

~~~
orangecat
First, the reviews inform people that the books are available cheaper in other
formats, which they might not have known. Second, if the reviews do cause the
publisher to lower the price, that will presumably result in more sales, and
there will be more consumer surplus gained than producer surplus lost. Boom,
market improvement.

~~~
tptacek
When supplier are coerced into changing their prices by force, that isn't the
market at work.

You don't like the word "coercion" or "force" because you think stuffing
review sites with non-good-faith-reviews it harmless, even though it
contravenes the expectation that a reviewer represents a single entity who has
actually attempted to consume the book. But the same logic was used during the
Wikileaks Visa DDoS flood. You can choose to believe that DDoS attacks are
legitimate, too. But you cannot with a straight face say that those attacks
are the market at work.

~~~
orangecat
_stuffing review sites with non-good-faith-reviews it harmless, even though it
contravenes the expectation that a reviewer represents a single entity who has
actually attempted to consume the book_

I don't agree the the reviews are not "in good faith". It is wrong to write a
review of a $100 Monster cable pointing out that no matter how well it works,
it's a ripoff when a $10 cable is functionally identical? This is the same
idea: the reviewers are expressing their opinion about whether the product is
worth the asking price. Their criteria for evaluation is different from yours;
that doesn't make it vandalism or coercion or a DDOS.

~~~
tptacek
Yes, I think it is: if you have not purchased the product, the proper venue to
point out the TRUE FACT that the cable is a rip off is not in fact the product
review site. Unless you buy the product and review it.

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joshfinnie
What I find funny is that this would have never happened if they charged the
standard $9.99 e-book price (which in itself is absolutely too much for
e-books).

The $5 difference is causing quite a stir which I am sure is not worth it in
the long run.

~~~
ig1
Why is $10 too much for an ebook ? - surely it depends on the value of the
content inside it.

Valuing a book by it's physical properties is a practice that's gone on for
far too long. Lots of technical books are full of "padding" and duplication
because no-one will buy a 50 page book which concisely provides the useful
information for $10-$20. It waste a huge amount of time both of the author and
the readers.

~~~
ori_b
I would gladly pay _more_ for a thinner, more concise book.

~~~
awj
I have come to use the term "frighteningly thing" to describe most of the math
and comp sci textbooks I decided were worth keeping. They are tiny, polished,
beautiful gems rather than a ton and a half of rock studded with some
promising crystals.

~~~
ori_b
Any especially good ones you care to mention?

~~~
awj
What I have in the room with me:

1\. Modern Algebra by John R. Durbin

2\. Introduction to the Theory of Computation by Michael Sipser

3\. Machine Learning - An Algorithmic Perspective by Stephen Marsland (not
quite on the same level as the above two, but still pretty solid)

I think Tanenbaum's Operating System and Appel's Compilers books both go in
this category too, they're big but not compared to their subject matter. But,
I've seen enough people disappointed in both to think this is more my personal
opinion at play.

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tialys
This is why I hate the 'star' review system. It very often leads to users
trying to 'punish' the maker of the product, and creates an incorrect
perception that the product itself is flawed. This might be a great book, but
someone browsing through titles will only see that it has a 1-star rating and
assume it sucks. I really think there'd be a lot of potential in some sort of
hybrid review system that could weed out these sorts of garbage reviews.

~~~
alex_c
Pricing is an important factor in a purchase decision, so shouldn't it be a
valid factor in a review?

A 1-star review saying it's completely overpriced, while not perfect, is still
better than reviews I see in the app store like "Amazing app, love it! 1/5" or
"Pretty cool app, but it crashes on load and I can't use it, 4/5" (and those
are the intelligible ones).

~~~
tialys
I made a comment below about price changes and how it hurts the usefulness of
such reviews, but I also wanted to add that what you mentioned is another
example of where the system fails. A 1/5 or 4/5 review that contradicts itself
with a single sentence 'this rocked/sucked' isn't useful. We should be forcing
people to provide a real review, or not allowing them to do so at all.

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neutronicus
Perhaps they should be more honest that this is temporary, "early access"
pricing. Perhaps they should say "The Fifth Witness: Electronic Early Access
Edition, $15", and promise "The Fifth Witness: Electronic Mass Market Edition,
$7". After all, early access is a reasonable thing to charge money for.

I also seem to recall reading elsewhere that authors get a much bigger cut of
hardback sales than they do of mass market paperback sales. Perhaps this
should be advertised more prominently?

~~~
originalgeek
I was thinking the same thing, but it should be more like "Buy now with
instant delivery $more" and "Buy now, delivery in 12 months $less". Buyer buys
and then ebook is automatically synced to their device at the scheduled time.
It would certainly go a long way to silence their critics.

The only problem I see for publishers is they currently enjoy flexibility in
their hardcover-to-paperback window. If a book is a blockbuster, I'm sure they
extend the window. I suppose they could alter the delivery window on the cheap
price, for customers that had not yet locked in the original delivery window
and price.

As far as the author's cut, it is time for authors to negotiate different
contracts. In 5 years, perhaps less, their hardback bonus is going to be
meaningless.

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pasbesoin
A review's a review. _Including_ the product price as compared to perceived
value.

It seems the sellers want to have their cake and eat it, too. You sell an
e-Book for more than the hardcover -- be prepared for people to lower the
value they assign to the _product_ that you are _selling_ at _your price_.

Otherwise, just relabel your review section to "Whore for us".

(A bit strong, admittedly, but this is starting to stink of hypocrisy. Pooor
Amazon! /sarcasm)

EDIT:

At the same time, people should learn that the physical costs of a physical
book are actually a fairly small component of it's overall cost. IIRC, often a
dollar or two (US). Amazon et al. discounts on physical books often represent
in good part the lack of retail overhead.

If you want bookstores, _you_ need to patronize them. And decide that you find
enough value to pay the additional expense that keeps them in business.

When a staff member helps you, directly or by stocking/shelving an item you
otherwise would not have found, realize this and make a decision to "pay the
freight".

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bhousel
Shameless plug: I built a site to let people borrow and lend Kindle (and soon
Nook) books. You can make wishlists of books you want to try out, and
hopefully some kind person who owns that book will loan it to you.

<http://booklends.com>

Ebook pricing is unfortunate, and a lot of that has more to do with the
publishers than with the authors or with Amazon/B&N.

The Fifth Witness, mentioned in the CNET article, currently has an average
rating of 1.7 out of 5:

<http://booklends.com/books/4d959054461b264b37025bd3>

It is not lendable, unfortunately. Again, blame Little, Brown, & Co for that.
I think it would be in their best interests to allow their books to be lent to
others. While I have no data (yet) to back this up, I believe that people who
borrow a book that they enjoy are likely to buy more books from the same
author.

~~~
ig1
Didn't Amazon shut down Lendle for offering such a service?

~~~
bhousel
It was shut down for a few days, but it's back up again.

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Tichy
"And that means more bookstores will be closing."

At the worst case they'll just have to change. Maybe they'll become cafes
where you can borrow a kindle at the counter for browsing the selection.

Or they'll become like lists on Facebook.

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naqabas
I think really what consumers are angry about is that the kindle/nook used to
advertise the fact that ebooks were cheaper than buying the physical book and
initially they were. Wouldn't you be a little angry now if you had invested a
lot of money into the kindle/nook and justified it by the cheaper price in
books? You can't blame them for ranting a little.

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dkl
I recently emailed Amazon customer service and complained about this very
thing. A couple of days ago I bought dead tree versions of books that were 20%
more for the kindle. I will not buy a kindle version of a book that is more
than the dead tree version. Period.

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locopati
Don't kill the messenger?

