
The Allure of Small Towns for Big City Freelancers - wallflower
https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/07/big-city-freelancers-look-to-small-cities-to-lower-cost-of-living.html
======
tylerjwilk00
Finally - A positive perspective on small town living.

When I read the stories of big city lifestyles I'm amazed so many people opt-
in to it. Traffic, noise, concrete everywhere. Yuck - but to each their own.

I'll take my country life as a remote worker going on 8 years. Trees, forest,
wildlife, fresh air, backyards. 5 minutes walk or 1 minute drive to a shop for
groceries, hardware, lumber, restaurants, kid parks.

Everyone knows each other. Very tight knit community. Don't even get me
started on cost of living differences. I'll never leave.

Remote work really levels the playing field and unlocks a lot of potential for
rural and small towns. All happening at a time when the staple of resource
extraction is declining but global connectivity is increasing. There may be a
bright future for small towns yet.

~~~
jacobmoe
Not trying to start a "town vs city" argument - to each their own, as you said
- but I think people who don't live in big cities misunderstand what life is
like there. In NYC you hear tourists say "I could never live here". The thing
is, as someone who lives in New York, I also could never live here, if _here_
is Times Square or some other tourist hotspot. Cities are just collections of
neighborhoods. In your neighborhood you recognize your neighbors and feel the
same community spirit you would in any town. The difference is that you can
get on a subway or bus and see people or have experiences that would require a
trip to the airport somewhere else. But the real thing I love about city life
are the opportunities you have every day to come into contact with people who
are different than you. Going for a jog in the winter through a Hasidic
neighborhood, an elderly man in a wheelchair is stuck in the snow, so I help
him get to temple. A woman with a cane who has clearly had a very different
life than me needs a seat on the subway, we make eye contact and I get up for
her, she says thank you and I say no trouble. These small unavoidable
collisions every day really do have an impact on how you see the world.

~~~
losvedir
Or, people _do_ understand and yet still don't like it. I've lived in New York
City and also had those superficial interactions with people different from
me. But like the person you're responding to, I much prefer my current life of
remote work from a rural town in the South, for all the reasons in the
original comment.

It just felt like your comment, despite reiterating the parent's "to each
their own" caveat, was either a total non sequitur or pushing the perspective
that if you don't like city life you must just not understand it.

~~~
mlevental
>had those superficial interactions with people different from me

sorry why do you presume they're superficial? or i should sat why do you exalt
your small town interactions over someone else's big-town interactions? i've
lived in both a smalltown (currently) and brooklyn ny (previously) and the
depth of the interactions is absolutely about the same.

btw we can all play presumptuous and haughty: in your "tight-knit" community
no one will help you/acknowledge you as soon as you diverge from highly
constrained cultural norms even a small iota - where as in my diverse working
class neighborhood in brooklyn that wouldn't be the case. what do you say? not
true? color me just as suspicious as you color yourself if i claim to you that
i actually had deep and genuine conversations with my neighbors, grocers, and
occasionally fellow subway riders.

~~~
losvedir
Yeah, I agree with you that the depth of interactions are the same.

It was just an unkind jab at the fact that the examples given of exposure to
different people and cultures were helping someone cross the road and giving
up a seat on the subway. That jibed with my experience living in NYC - it's
not particularly conducive to expanding your horizons; the diversity is there
if you really want to go out and meet people, but mostly it will be courteous
distance on the street and most of your deep interactions will be within your
filter bubble, same as anywhere.

Unlike my current town, NYC has mosques, but I didn't actually learn anything
about Islam or Muslims living there, compared to when I actually lived in the
Middle East and made friends for life there. I ate at Chinese restaurants and
shopped in Chinatown but wouldn't say I gained any cultural insights. But
living in Singapore for a year and making friends with Singaporeans,
Indonesians, and Chinese people - there I learned a lot.

~~~
maratd
You would have learned the same if you had _lived_ in those neighborhoods
instead of simply swinging by. Of course, most people choose to segregate, but
you always have the option in NYC.

------
jasonkester
This idea works really well for remote developers.

I live in the tiny, 1,000 person, village of Arbonne-la-Foret, smack dab in
the middle of nowhere, France. That is, unless you're a rock climber, in which
case it's exactly in the center of the largest concentration of fantastic
bouldering on the planet. American companies are happy to pay me the same to
work from here as from that little Ohio town in the article, or from the Bay
Area.

I think the strategy to follow if you're in tech these days is to:

    
    
      1. figure out the thing you like to do most in life,
      2. find the best place in the world to do that thing,
      3. move there and,
      4. contract remotely for a company based in the San Francisco Bay Area.
    

There is good internet everywhere. I'm finding less and less reason why
anybody who could would ever want to work in an office.

~~~
erikb
That is a nice fantasy. I don't see it applying for most people tho. I know
exactly zero people who do contract/remote work and don't struggle to make a
living, even in a cheaper area. The hardest part is to get any decent paying
contracts.

You might have some advantage that is not even clear to you. Maybe you worked
in a big company for 10 years and now can gather work through contacts from
there. Maybe your father is well known in the industry you work. Something
like that.

~~~
jasonkester
_You might have some advantage_

Keep in mind that the first 10 odd years of your career out of school should
be all about _building_ that advantage. You want to hit your 30s in a state of
Embarrassing Employability, where another amazing contract gig is just an
email or two, or a Twitter status update away.

Spend your entire 20s amassing a collections of artifacts you can point to to
demonstrate how good you are at all this stuff, and a horde of ex-bosses and
ex-co-workers to whom your name springs first to mind when asked by somebody
who needs a guy to do that stuff if they know The Guy.

So yes, absolutely. Get an advantage. But know that the short list of "built
in" ones you gave above is not comprehensive. The best advantages are the ones
you construct yourself.

~~~
njoro
Sure, but those aren't the people struggling. People with successful careers
and property in the Bay Area have probably seen both their salary and property
value double in the last ten years. Which is pretty hard to beat anywhere
else.

------
rainbowmverse
Small towns get worse the further you are from the default. For example,
dating here is terrible. All the men are assholes or very deep in the closet.

The women are super religious. Think bible quotes as Tinder profiles. And I
don't mean "their bios have a lot about religion in them." I mean that's their
whole profile. A bible quote.

And I doubt many gender non-comforming people in my age range are out about
it. There is no way I'm taking my queer ass to one of the three dive bars to
do it the traditional way.

That's not even getting into the lack of entertainment options. This town is
at least close enough to Atlanta and Athens for good internet options and
reasonable support for LGBT+ people in government. They had updated marriage
licenses ready before the SCOTUS ruling.

If you're a straight, white, cis dude who doesn't mind traveling to the
nearest city for anything fun to do, knock yourself out. At least get a hotel
paid monthly and spend some real quality time in a prospective small town
first. Even if you are super default, I don't see how you could enjoy it if
you're remotely intellectually curious.

I'm getting out of here ASAP.

------
ivm
Six years ago our remotely working family was choosing between Canada and
Chile (these countries have freelancer-friendly immigration[1]). After looking
at the costs of life and real estate in Canada, Chile won and we moved to a
small southern city[2]. It is walkable, green, full of various stores and
services but still small enough to occasionally run into your friends in the
downtown. I feel more at home here than in St. Petersburg where I've spent
most of my life.

We live very comfortably here for less than $2k/mo for two people and expect
to build a house for less than $150k (including half a hectare of land that we
have bought already). I think it's quite easy to retire early in these
conditions even on a moderate remote income ($50-60k). Also, Chilean personal
income taxes are the lowest in the OECD[3].

[1]: [https://qotoqot.com/blog/best-countries/](https://qotoqot.com/blog/best-
countries/)

[2]: [https://valdiviaguide.com/](https://valdiviaguide.com/)

[3]: [http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-
chile.pdf](http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-chile.pdf)

~~~
davidw
Cool! Chile looks like an interesting country - you can pick a climate that
suits your fancy... but in practice, how does that work out? Are there
differences (besides the weather) between north and south? Did you speak
Spanish when you went? Have you written about your experiences?

~~~
ivm
When we were moving here, I thought we would stay only for 6-7 years to get a
better passport but now I just don't want to leave.

The southern Chilean culture suits me perfectly: there's no tension in the air
(especially compared to the US or Russia) and most people are a bit reserved
but kind to each other. It's somewhat different in the central regions because
of the population density and competitiveness but still great in my opinion.

Neither of us spoke Spanish and it was tough in the first year because we had
little time to practice. Overall Spanish acquisition goes quite slowly because
we work from home and have met a lot of English-speaking friends but I got to
the conversational level in the third year. It's not a hard language after
all.

I don't have an immigrant's blog but I made the "Valdivia Guide" site from the
previous comment.

------
mirimir
That's what I did, some years ago, as a consultant. Once I had enough steady
clients, I moved to a small town, where living expenses were much lower.

However, I did pick a college town, not very far from interstates, Amtrak and
a regional airport. So meeting clients hasn't been a huge hassle. And there
are interesting communities, including a maker space.

And damn, the vibe is amazing. As much as I come off online as a privacy
extremist, I love the intimacy. Neighbors care about each other. There's no
need to lock your doors. Neighbors ask about strange vehicles and people. They
know you at the post office. I've received mail addressed to just name, city,
state and postal code.

But of course, I never talk about Mirimir etc there ;)

~~~
jseliger
_That 's what I did, some years ago, as a consultant. Once I had enough steady
clients, I moved to a small town, where living expenses were much lower._

I'm living in NYC and looking into something similar. The rent is absurd and
the vast majority of the work I do is conducted electronically. I read this
article and was like, "Very close to my reaction." I don't want to move to a
really small town, but somewhere like Nashville or Columbus, OH is appealing.

~~~
gk1
I moved from Brooklyn to Baltimore five years ago, without changing my income.
It meant an instant boost to my standard of living, as I was able to get a new
luxury apartment in a nice neighborhood for the same rent as my infested
Brooklyn studio in a "transitioning" neighborhood.

There are so many mid-size, low-cost-of-living, vibrant cities to choose from.
Baltimore, Pittsburg, Columbus, Cincinnati, Charleston, New Orleans,
Nashville, Louisville, ... And these days they all have great co-working
spaces.

~~~
cageface
If I did ever move back to the US I think I'd pick one of these second tier
cities too. Small town living is just too provincial for me but I think you
get a lot of the upsides of living in NYC or LA or SF without a lot of the
downsides when you live in a place like Pittsburg.

Not to mention that cities like NYC or LA are so expensive and so gentrified
now that artists and other creative people can't afford to live there anymore
so they're a lot less interesting than they were 20 years ago anyway. There's
a lot of really creative and offbeat electronic music coming out of the
American Midwest right now for example.

------
humanrebar
A huge upside for small town living is livability for people with
disabilities. It's a major reason, for example, that people like to retire to
smaller towns. It's also why it is expensive to rear more than a couple small
kids in a major urban area, assuming you can consider babies and toddlers
(temporarily) less-than-able human beings.

It varies from big city to big city, but older areas of cities are usually
grandfathered out of ADA regulations that require wider doors, accessibility
ramps, elevators, etc. Parking at all in most cities is atrocious, let alone
handicap parking with extra room to unload a wheelchair. Wide aisles are a
waste of space in dense urban areas but needed if you need to get a wheelchair
to the only open table in the back of the room. Shoving your way on to a
crowded train car is distasteful when young and healthy but a deal breaker for
many. See also availability of handicap bathroom stalls. The list goes on.

I was recently at a museum in a small city and was struck with how many
visitors had significant disabilities of various kinds. For all the diversity
we come to expect from large cities, this kind of diversity is probably
lacking.

~~~
darpa_escapee
I've always been under the impression that small towns aren't accessible from
an aging and disabled perspective. Even the smallest tasks require a car and
there's little to no public transportation. Whereas in cities, you might only
have to go to the corner to grab necessities or get medication from your
pharmacy.

I've worked with Meals on Wheels in suburban areas. Often, if the elderly
didn't live in a senior community/nursing home or didn't have family nearby,
they barely left home because they physically, or legally, couldn't drive.
That means they don't see doctors when they need to, and lacked food,
medication and basic necessities. Taxis exist, but they're relatively
expensive if you're retired and living off of Social Security.

------
mrhappyunhappy
I lived in Irvine CA, my studio rent was 1650 one of the cheaper ones in the
complex. Wife and I made combined 110k a year and all we had enough for was to
pay living expenses when figure in everything else. Then I lost my job and had
to pick up freelancing as nobody else was hiring - I didn’t have enough
experience in the field I wanted to work in. Moved to Vancouver WA and was
able to afford more while getting better freelance gigs. Now I live in rural
Japan where a 3 br house costs $500 to rent. I still freelance and have grown
my career significantly- with ability to pull over 100k if I wanted to, except
now I work less since I want to spend more time with family. Even the money
I’m making now, while far far less than many people here, goes a long way.
Meanwhile this has enabled me to spend 50% of my time to work on side
projects. I am hoping some of them pan out for recurring income so I can drop
wage slavery forever. Big cities are fun and all when you are younger. Spend
all your money on rent - no problem at that age. Then you get to a point when
it all sounds too absurd and you want a lawn, a place to watch your kids play
somewhere to slow the hell down from life in the fast lane.

~~~
ewwhite
I feel like we're missing a lot of detail between Vancouver, WA and how you
ended up in rural Japan... Can you fill some of that in? How did you end up
there?

~~~
mrhappyunhappy
My wife is Japanese. We were expecting our first and made a conscious decision
to move. Most of my clients now are still from US, although I have and
occasionally still work with agencies in other English speaking countries.

------
adam-a
I can see the same thing happening over here in the UK. Me and my partner left
London to move to a smaller city Scotland, we now pay 60% of the rent for a
place that's twice as big. I still freelance for clients in London and can
funnel the extra money into side projects and savings. We actually have a
realistic chance of buying a house in the next couple of years too!

One thing I wonder, having seen a few articles recently about people leaving
big cities[1], is whether this is a new trend or simply the same thing that
happens every generation as people grow older and their priorities change?

[1]: [https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jun/28/london-
propert...](https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jun/28/london-property-
prices-blamed-for-record-exodus)

~~~
TomMarius
> One thing I wonder, having seen a few articles recently about people leaving
> big cities[1], is whether this is a new trend or simply the same thing that
> happens every generation as people grow older and their priorities change?

I don't think so - not in general. I think it largely depends on the
economical situation. My grandparents (and with them many others) have done
the exact opposite because it made economical sense back then.

------
SteveGerencser
I've always thought that people misunderstood the power of remote working. The
power is that it lets you live where you want to live while also letting you
do the work that you want to regardless of where either is. We love country
life. We live in a village of less than 400 people on 100 acres of land yet I
work internationally in marketing and my wife is an engineer with a major
aerospace company.

Some of my best friends also have jobs that allow them to live in the city
they want to live (Tampa area) while working for companies in locations that
they have no desire to live in (SF Bay area).

I've always felt that remote working was all about making the connection
between the desired career and desired lifestyle where in the past if you
wanted to work for major firm X you had to live THERE.

~~~
sanderjd
Isn't this exactly what people understand the power of remote work to be?
Sadly, most firms still don't think the (real or perceived) loss of
productivity is a good deal for them, even if it is for their employees.

~~~
SteveGerencser
Based on my experience it isn't. Most people full stop at 'work from home' but
never take the next step toward live how I want to live while working how I
want to work. They have their job, convince their boss to let them work from
home, then never actually do anything other than work in their PJs. ;)

~~~
sanderjd
Maybe staying where they are but working in their PJs is how they want to
live!

------
baybal2
Anybody ever though about downshifting to 3rd world countries in line of this?

I myself work for a SZ based company, moved there from Canada. During
production run times I'm in Shenzhen, and the rest of the time I'm stationed
in a random "developing country" trying to "play a big man," fraternise with
local business and political establishments, trying to win bets.

We have few Americans in the company, all of them are from "flyover" states.
They all say China is a way better bet in moving up the ladder for them than
Silicon Valley.

~~~
notmything
A friend of mine moved to the Philippines with her husband (both Australian)
to set up an offshore development shop doing NetSute ERP implementations for
Australian NetSuite customers (usually mid-market retailers or manufactures).

She’s been there for 4 years now so it must be going well - her house is
amazing there too.

------
legohead
I moved to CA not for work, but family. There was nothing to do in my home
state in the south, and I lived in the capital.

In CA I have endless opportunities, events, family activities, and access to a
huge variety of landscapes. Having both the ocean and mountains within easy
reach is a big advantage. Food is also so much better out here. And then the
people -- it's nice to live around people who think and feel the same way.

I sometimes think through moving back, or somewhere else with low cost of
living, but I'm not willing to give everything up.

~~~
christophilus
I've lived on the west coast and in the south (where I currently am). The west
coast has what you say, but there are spots here in the south that are pretty
close, and _way_ less expensive.

I'm a 3 hour drive from the ocean, 30 minutes from decent mountain hikes (not
as good as the Cascades, but decent). The food here is not as varied as
Seattle. To get the same variety, I have to hop in the car and head up to
Ashville, down to Atlanta, or 30 minutes into Greenville (whose food scene is
improving). That said, I'm currently in walking distance of a great Thai
place, a really good microbrewery, a great farm-to-table place, a great
Mexican place, a really good seafood place... So, that's good enough for me.
Politically, this is a conservative place, but not as much a you'd think, and
Ashville, which is ~1 hour away, is as liberal as Seattle, I'd wager. So, you
can definitely find a nice group of folks who think the way you do, if you
don't feel like hanging out with a more diverse group.

~~~
mmt
> I'm a 3 hour drive from the ocean

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this would be a dealbreak for
anyone for whom ocean access is even moderately important. Even the greater
Portland, OR area being 2 hours away (assuming no traffic, which is never a
safe assumption for those routes) was a big enough impediment to a friend of
mine who is a CA expat there, that he considers casual day trips out of the
question.

> not as good as the Cascades, but decent

> food here is not as varied as Seattle

Ultimately, I think this is the big takeaway.. there are places that may be
_way_ less expensive, as you say, but many amenities (for lack of a better
term) are only kinda-sorta comparable if one squints hard enough.

If those amenities are central to ones lifestyle and perception of quality of
life, that approximation isn't going to cut it, no matter how cheap it is.
Some people may well overestimate the importance of such amenities, but others
may underestimate them because they take them for granted, if they've lived in
certain West Coast cities long enough.

------
sien
Truckee looks pretty great for this sort of thing. It's only 35 minutes drive
from Reno too. So getting out and getting fancier food or whatever is very
much doable for an evening.

It's interesting that more people don't move to places like this. Perhaps the
difficulty of obtaining well paid work is the hard part.

~~~
stevehawk
For tech people you almost /have/ to find remote work. We moved to a remote
part of Indiana for my wife's job and the only local tech job I've found
offered 1 week vacation and less money than I made out of college 15 years
ago.

There are perks like having a 4500sq ft home on almost 2 aces of land for a
mortgage much smaller than what I see a studio rent for in SF. On the other
hand there's only a couple of truly good restaurants in the area, the rest is
low end fast food (McDs and the like). The nearest Chipotle, for instance, is
45 minutes away. And the night scene.. it ends around 10pm.

~~~
lkCbdBclE
The first town mentioned in the article is Yellow Springs, OH. That's very
close to Dayton and Springfield, two decently sized cities. On top of that's
it's about an hour away from Columbus and Cincinnati, both of which have tons
of nightlife, restaurants and competitive tech jobs.

~~~
stevehawk
But how many people long for "the small town" just to commute 2+ hours a day?

~~~
drdrey
Some people commute 2+ hours in the Bay Area too

------
taurath
Simple fact is I think many many people would look for better places to live
if they could afford the lifestyle they wanted there. That’s why so many of my
friends have moved from the Bay Area to Seattle and then to Colorado and
sometimes to Portland now.

Main downside of moving to a small town if you’re LGBT or queer is that you’re
always going to be the odd one out - at the very least you won’t have much of
a dating pool.

------
wayanon
An unwelcome side effect is that incoming city dwellers can push up prices for
people already in these small towns who don’t have the option to relocate.

~~~
jseliger
That is typically an issue with zoning, not people moving there:
[https://www.vox.com/cards/affordable-housing-
explained/what-...](https://www.vox.com/cards/affordable-housing-
explained/what-is-zoning-euclidian-form-based-and-other-kinds). Even most
small towns prevent reasonably-priced housing via height minimums, lot
setbacks, and parking minimums.

The cost of housing is set by supply and demand; allow supply to increase and
prices will moderate.

------
growlist
My partner and I are making this move soon - we should go from a two bedroom
terraced house to a good four bedroom with a nice garden, along with quieter
roads, less crime, pollution and all the rest of it. In the absence of a
decent regional policy I'd say we are doing our bit as two educated
professionals to spread the wealth!

I hate having to be part of this system and resisted as long as I could, but
if you don't own property in the UK you are virtually a non-person in some
senses.

~~~
GordonS
> if you don't own property in the UK you are virtually a non-person in some
> senses

I'm a property-owner in the UK. Could you explain a bit about what you mean by
this comment? I understand that there is a strong desire to own a property,
even if most people can't say exactly why that is, but I don't understand the
'non-person' comment at all.

~~~
growlist
Landlords can hike the rent unfairly at the end of the rental period, kick you
out to sell, and the mandatory term is short. Also, there are plenty of
circles where lack of property ownership equals social death. Additionally
missing out on rising property values can, due to increasingly inadequate
pension provision, leave you far poorer in retirement, and even have a knock
on effect on your offspring given the importance of the bank of mum and dad
for younger buyers.

I'd argue that all in all not owning property can hugely affect your life
chances here in the UK. You just have to watch one of the TV shows about high
court bailiffs or evictions etc. to see what things are like at the sharp end
for renters. Do you think I am exaggerating?

In some ways I see the UK as a semi-feudal state. Monarchy, rigid class
system, concentration of land ownership in few hands (even worse in Scotland
than England), property law that exploits the renter, etc.

~~~
GordonS
> there are plenty of circles where lack of property ownership equals social
> death

I'm not sure what you mean; I can't imagine any circle where anyone would care
either way.

> You just have to watch one of the TV shows about high court bailiffs or
> evictions etc. to see what things are like at the sharp end for renters.

Sorry, I make a point of not watching trash on Channel 5 ;)

> Do you think I am exaggerating?

No, I didn't say or even suggest that - I'm honestly just trying to understand
what you mean. Also, you made a good point regarding retirement.

~~~
growlist
So you're not a property snob, but you are a TV snob eh?!

I remember an advert from maybe 15 years ago about a couple selling up to go
abroad, cutting from the couple's brilliant new life to their snarky friends
at a dinner party, one person saying 'where have they gone' with another
responding 'straight to the bottom of the property ladder'. I guess the agency
behind it must have thought it would be a familiar concept back then, and the
property market has got even worse in the meantime. Middle class Britain can
be a competitive place, no? Also I think The Good Life satirised this type of
outlook even further back.

~~~
GordonS
My Channel 5 comment was meant to be in jest.

I didn't see it, but I'm not sure the point of the scene you mention was
'property snobbery'; it sounds like it was perhaps a dig at those people with
a chip on their shoulder who hate when others have something they don't and
will grasp at any pathetic attempt to mock them.

~~~
growlist
Back to your original query. Its easy to find sources that mesh with my choice
of words.

'Renting carries a stigma. "There is a social expectation to own a house at a
certain point. You're made to feel like a second-class citizen if you rent."'

'But in the UK it can feel like a second-class system. There are limited
protections'

[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22952667](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22952667)

And the ad would have no poignancy unless there were something recognisable
about there being status attached to property, would it?

Anyway I think you are being deliberately obtuse or picking up on my choice of
words whilst ignoring the main point, which is that property ownership is a
critical differentiating element in life chances in the UK, and with that I
bid you adieu.

~~~
GordonS
> Anyway I think you are being deliberately obtuse

I was absolutely not. I am however, also very much done here.

------
ozim
It is perfectly reasonable. But you still have to have sales or other good
contact on the ground in big city. Because if in walking distance you have 100
customers you can maintain connection with people working there. If you will
move to small town where you don't have customers and you have to rely on your
contacts over the internet then you might get burned when your contacts switch
jobs or whatever happens.

------
rpvnwnkl
There’s a perk for the small towns, too: they get “tech money” without having
to court a “tech industry”. This brings money into the community that would
otherwise be left outside it.

I see remote workers as an equalizer / booster for communities that have a
small economy with little outside interaction with the larger economy. I’m
thinking of small rural towns, groups of 2,000 ppl or fewer that are
geographically isolated.

------
austincheney
At some point I would like to continue to be a developer but live in some
place like this:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampa,_Texas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampa,_Texas)

It has a feel of utter isolation but the town is big enough that it isn't
quite like living in Antarctica.

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jimkri
This is something that I'm currently debating and have been thinking about a
lot lately. NYC is so expensive and makes it insanely hard to save anything.
Moving to say Woodstock, NY would be half the price, 2 hours away on a bus,
and its beautiful.

I also think that people from small towns can give you a different perceptive
on ideas and life that you can't get anywhere else.

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xivzgrev
A friens of mine was once working with a developer who charged SF market rates
but lived somewhere in Idaho. Part of me wishes for that, how much he must be
cash flowing.

Also i find it ironic that despite all our advances in technology most tech
companies insist on people working in office.

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stared
When cost of living is a factor, I recommend Warsaw, Poland. For me it is a
sweet spot for a big enough city (collaboration, flights, etc) but neither too
overwhelming (as London or New York) nor too expensive (as them or Bay Area).

5x lower rent prices than in SF ([https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Poland&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=Warsaw)).

Thanks to that I an spend _most_ of my time on side projects. It wouldn't be
possible in Bay Area.

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keiferski
I recently asked this very question on HN and got some fantastic answers:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17522160](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17522160)

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davidw
Very interested in this. I'd love to partner up with some people to find a way
to be financially involved in this trend. There are tons of cool little towns
out there in some amazing places.

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alkonaut
I remote from a location less than 1h commute from a big city. Means I can
have a big lawn with a house on it and swim 5 minutes walk from it. But I can
also get all the stuff you only find in bigger cities like a large selection
of restaurants, concerts etc. The downside is that it’s not small town cheap,
but it’s definitely half the cost of living just half as far from the city or
in the city proper.

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strooper
The idea, "work from anywhere", helped me leave big, dirty, over crowded,
complicated city for a small, clean, friendly one about four years ago. From
my experience- the upsides are- relaxed lifestyle, friendly environment. The
downsides are- very slow people all around makes you significantly slower,
significantly less competitive work attitude and very few like minded people
around.

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newbalance
Great to hear about the happy coexistence of creatives and small town
communities.

A few of the takeaways for me:

\- General rule, a city can support 1 creative for every 1,000 people

\- First mover advantage: small towns see creatives as novelty and are willing
to assist.

\- Benefits creatives moving to small town, but with an existing "big city"
network

\- Lowered cost of living means increased budgets for passion projects and
less team dedicated to paid, professional work

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puranjay
To people who have or are doing this, does the fact that you're not in the
office hamper your career prospects? Do you risk pigeonholing yourself as a
"skilled worker" and not "management material" \- should you want to move up
the ranks?

~~~
mcjiggerlog
Probably, but I am completely fine with that. I don't want to work in
management and don't see that as harming my career.

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simonebrunozzi
I'd love to live in a small town in Italy (where I'm from), however - to
oversimplify a bit - I am afraid that the type of people that I would normally
meet is not exciting or interesting as people in bigger cities (I currently
live in SF).

~~~
Puer
How do you define interesting or exciting?

I spent a summer in Sardinia a few years ago. I didn't meet anyone who was a
programmer like myself, but I met plenty of people who taught me about food,
literature, philosophy, herding sheep, and how to live simply.

I fully understand the appeal of SF and I know that there's more to SF than
Silicon Valley, but I'd much rather live somewhere where I'm surrounded by
people that I wouldn't normally meet. I feel like those environments give the
greatest opportunity for growth and expansion of my personal perspective.

~~~
simonebrunozzi
I don't disagree with you - what I am trying to say is that perhaps it's
difficult to know for sure that you will be happy with the type of people you
will meet in a certain place.

That's why it's difficult for me to even think about moving back to Italy
eventually: I am not sure I will like it there.

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claydavisss
Remote work is fantastic if you are willing to make some sacrifices.

The biggest sacrifice is career advancement. I personally don't care because I
am considered an older worker...but as a remote employee, it can be more
difficult to advance into management etc. I also tend to let others "win" if I
have any sort of workplace conflict. Since I am not in the office, I need to
make sure no one has cause to talk negatively about me.

Everything else is a positive. I can literally live wherever I want. I have no
"commute". I get paid a decent Bay Area wage that is considered very high by
local standards. I do not pay CA taxes.

Many companies are still hesitant to embrace remote work but that is changing.

My guess is in twenty years, the remote worker will have higher life
satisfaction: much more likely to own a home, much more likely to be able to
start a family etc etc.

~~~
drdrey
I cringe a little when I hear "advance into management". Management is an
entirely different job, not something that is an upgrade over an individual
contributor role.

~~~
alexgmcm
I agree but sadly the salary often is an upgrade and there are few alternative
routes for advancement.

------
gammateam
> It’s harder for creative professionals to make a living in big cities.

Still more desirable to be the creative in the giant loft in the city doing
really interesting or weird stuff that has no discernible market value except
that the opaque market valued it for millions anyway.

You aren't going to have any of that in Small town, Anywheres. Just a few
graphic designers that suddenly have a manageable cost of living, I can admit
there is utility in that. I guess.

