

But You Did Not Persuade Me - stalled
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/07/but-you-did-not-persuade-me.html

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j_baker
This is a pitfall I see startup founders getting into frequently[1]. Some
people think that as soon as they start their own startup that gives them a
position of authority, they can tell others what to do and that's it.
Unfortunately, even the CEO (perhaps even _especially_ the CEO) still has to
have skills of persuasion to get others to do as they ask.

[1] Really, it's a pitfall that anyone (myself included) can get into when
they obtain a position of authority.

~~~
DanielRibeiro
Some companies are aware of this. Google seems to actually teach[1] project
managers about this, as recently summarazied by stcredzero[2]:

"A workable program for teaching technical people how to effectively manage
others in specific technical contexts is probably one of the most potent
things a company could have.

So much of the quality and productivity of a programming group depends on how
well the group is managed. Despite this, the production of effective managers
is often shockingly haphazard.

 _They are not going to do something for you just because of your title. You
really have to make your case...

"One of the practicalities of a less hierarchical company is that you aren't
necessarily going to have the position power to decree something or dictate
something..."_

This is actually the case at most BigCo. If you think otherwise, then you've
bought into the window dressing."

[1]
[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230341040457746...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303410404577466852658514144.html)

[2] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4204150>

~~~
nodemaker
I think that is hardly the case at most Big Co's.....Google is an exception
but at most other cubicle farms your success as a coder heavily depends on
your ability to take and execute orders from upper management, whatever they
may be.

~~~
PakG1
Ultimate spear meets ultimate shield? At most Big Co's, a project manager or
line manager's success depends on ability to persuade others (beside them and
under them) to do as they desire.

------
Mythbusters
Don't disagree with the power of persuasion but the approach of expecting you
to be persuaded is flawed I think. It makes the other person responsible for
expressing his/her point effectively enough that you understand the importance
of it. Tech industry particularly is rife with people who are extraordinary
developers but very poor communicators. People like these are highly at
disadvantage with the "persuade me" stance. I think if you are the decision
maker, higher authority then it is your responsibility to have the insight to
see the value of the point being made and not really hope to be nagged like a
toddler into making a decision.

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jessriedel
Unless Atwood had previously been _against_ MLK's Birmingham Campaign, why
would he use "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" as an example of a persuasive
essay? I suppose there's the historical evidence that the letter is
persuasive, but it sounds a lot more like Atwood is saying that he is judging
the letter based on how persuasive it felt _to him_ , which is silly since he
already agreed with the premise. Much better to cite an essay which
effectively persuades to a claim that most (modern) readers do _not_ already
accept.

~~~
pchristensen
I think he accepts it a priori as a historically persuasive letter, and he
reverse engineers techniques from it.

~~~
jessriedel
Maybe I'm just not up on my history, but is it well-established that this
letter changed anyone's mind? Or was it just very inspiring for people who
already agreed with him? (The latter is, after all, the purpose of most
political oration.) In any case, when Atwood says "It is remarkably persuasive
without ever resorting to anger, incivility, or invective" he really seems to
base that on _reading the letter_ rather than an historical data.

Also, who would ever think that anger, incivility, or invectiveness would
persuade?

This was only 3 sentences in Atwood's post, though, so it's not that big of a
deal.

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dinkumthinkum
I'm never very easy on Atwood and I won't start to be now. However, I love
this part of that movie. It's very nice. (have to balance comments some time
:) )

I'll set aside what I think about including a comparison to "Letter from a
Birmingham Jail" to the rest of the things discussed in the post.

~~~
modarts
Maybe i'm out of the loop on this, but i've often wondered why people often
take issue with Jeff Atwood. He has a pretty entertaining and well written
blog, and helped put together Stack Overflow.

~~~
macca321
[http://codebetter.com/robconery/2009/02/03/5-secrets-to-
ninj...](http://codebetter.com/robconery/2009/02/03/5-secrets-to-ninja-
writing/)

