
Los Angeles – scenes from the collapse of a city that’s lost control - malingo
https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-lopez-skid-row-rats-trash-20190601-story.html
======
panarky
The natural reflex in the US is to scream "Democrat" or "Republican" as the
supposed root cause of every problem.

This is just rooting for your favorite team and it doesn't illuminate what
_policies_ work or don't work.

A better way would be to survey the cities of the world, measure crime and
homelessness, and systematically identify the _policies_ that consistently
deliver better results.

~~~
sjg007
Umm.. this article is about illegal dumping. That has nothing to do with
politics.

What LA needs to do is setup cameras in those areas with license plate
readers. Also LA has also always had a problem with illegal dumping. Maybe
offer a tip line as well with cash rewards.

~~~
panarky
_> Umm... nothing to do with politics._

Cruise through the comments on this thread to see this "natural reflex" on
display.

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hackermailman
Article describes many more problems than the homeless, such as rampant
illegal street dumping done by businesses and residents, unchecked rodent
population and used needles littered everywhere which are definitely things a
city mayor could do something about.

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alexnewman
I talk with the homeless in my neighborhood all the time. I've not met one
over 30 who didn't have severe mental or physical illness. Those who call it a
housing problem are confusing you. This is a public health crisis in the
states where the authorities have no authority to help those who can't help
themselves

~~~
bsanr2
There are several studies and pilot programs that show that reliable housing
is a key component in recovery of homeless people with mental health issues.
Conveniently, providing it also solves the homeless problem.

~~~
WalterSear
Yes, but the housing problem still isn't the homeless problem. Affordable
housing won't prevent or cure mental illness, housing _support_ is just a
requirement for recovery. They aren't directly related.

There's no way to fix housing sufficiently to make it affordable to someone
dealing with mental illness and living on the street: that problem has to be
addressed separately, and directly.

~~~
alexnewman
In San Francisco state supported affordable houses are around 500k. This is a
mansion in most states. Anyone who thinks that the people on the street are
helped by this program are confused

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posbehsf
I don’t know which city is worse, SF or LA, but at least in recent
weeks/months SF OK’d construction of a new shelter along the Embarcadero
despite money and outcries from nearby condo owners.

I still don’t know what the solution is to address the mental health aspect of
homelessness. It’s disturbing seeing disheveled people scream at the top of
their lungs in the middle of FiDi after work and no one batting an eye.

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ohples
What's with all the dumping? Is it hard to get rid of trash in LA, or have
people just stopped caring?

~~~
sjg007
It's not hard but can be expensive. Since illegal dumping is not being
enforced, people are getting away with it to save money.

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dundercoder
Is there a state in the US that is more diverse (geography, economy, etc)? I
wonder how much that complicates things.

You can drive north for nearly 8 hours from San Diego and still be in the
state. You’ll go from inner city to cow pastures and onion fields and back
again.

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ReginaldButter
"The bags, some of which were split open, contained spoiled fruit and
trimmings from pineapples and mangoes. That part of town has a lot of produce
wholesalers, and it’s no secret that some of the illegal dumping is done by
local merchants and customers."

The City of Los Angeles doesn't have a composting program?

~~~
CydeWeys
Illegal dumping happens because enforcement is low and it's easier than the
alternatives. It doesn't require alternatives not existing.

And in this case, the reason you'd illegally dump is because it's free,
whereas commercial trash collection and composting services aren't (which is
generally true in most cities).

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neonate
[http://archive.is/xL5FA](http://archive.is/xL5FA)

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davidu
Just s/Los Angeles/San Francisco/g and it's the same story.

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pgnas
The polticians have destroyed California. This is your case study for social
programs, socialism, unlimited immigration, social justice policy and now they
are testing UBI?

California should be our wake up call to change, instead, we double down on
the same policies.

~~~
omosubi
What does reasonable policy regarding homelessness look like? I'm not trying
to be snide, I'm genuinely curious. I don't live in California btw.

~~~
mjevans
Hopefully a moderator pulls (your post) out from under the parent and makes it
a top-level reply to the article.

To start with, any policy affecting a population that can move and be moved
has to operate at the scope that those people are allowed to move. That means
the taxing and funding distribution HAS to be on a national level. It probably
also means that per-recipient funding needs to be proportional to the cost of
living in a given area. (which SHOULD also be calculated realistically.)

This would at least stop "poor" communities from dumping a national problem on
bigger cities that try to be more kind. It would also encourage longer term
solutions over broken window / temporary bandaids.

It would also need to be systemic. There are a number of failures in society
contributing to the issue.

    
    
      * Single payer healthcare - everyone's covered.
      * Actual mental healthcare (not just asylums)
      * Everyone is a worthy being
      * New New Deal - A job for all, with meaning and value.
      * Identify and correct market failures.
    

One such market failure is 'housing', where there are jobs, where there is
opportunity to build a new and better life, that's where people want to live.
However rent-seeking is destroying the ability to build a life, a community,
an actual home, family, or future.

~~~
varelse
So I agree in principle, but I also think our culture fails on imposing
ownership of one's choices in nearly equal and opposite proportion to how much
Asian countries overemphasize it.

And this came to a boiling point when a Chinese friend insisted the homeless
situation was better in China. So I looked up the numbers. Adjusted for
population, it isn't, and in fact it's slightly worse. That was a surprise to
me. But it's less visible there because it's considered shameful.

I personally think everyone deserves a fully belly and a roof over their head.
I think the rest is up to them. And I could go with medicare for all as an
improvement over the current inequitable situation, but I think we could do
better than that, yet I doubt we ever will. And that saddens me.

~~~
mjevans
In what way do you think choices reflect on any of the points I was trying to
make as changes in social support?

I can only see two that are well within the range that might be covered if all
the other safety nets fixed individuals that had become injured or otherwise
unable to work (this is assuming we have MUCH better tech, like Star Trek /
Orville level tech, to actually repair all types of damage).

Housing: This is more a choice made by the irrational market, not so much by
individual humans. Yes there is less expensive housing, but it's usually not
located near jobs or has a high externality / transaction cost of somekind.
Referencing the source article, Japan does have a fantastically run transit
system that is also reasonably priced. That does extend the range of available
locations.

Jobs themselves; do you think that job placement systems are not a better idea
instead of being "hired" to "look" for a job (which should not be ANYONE's
primary life skill!)? If an aptitude test shows that there is untrained area
that skill could be acquired in, getting that skill might be the assigned
'job' instead. (retraining/education)

~~~
varelse
Points 3 and 4 personally. Feel free to disagree, but some of the homeless are
bums IMO (note IMO). I'm willing to help them if it helps everyone else
because it's cheaper than any other alternative, but I'm not going to pretend
I don't know what they're up to. If I knew a way to reliably isolate the
cheaters, I would. I don't, and I'd rather see everyone housed and fed than
stay up at night worrying about freeloaders in this age of plenty if only we
didn't consistently squander our surplus.

I don't tell people what to do with their lives and the thought of a well-
intentioned bureaucracy doing so doesn't thrill me (perhaps from being placed
in all the slow classes against my will as a child I am biased here). I like
the free market for jobs. Empower people to make their own choices. Give them
free community college even. But let them make their own minds up.

California could turn a lot of its secondary cities into job markets as well
as suburbs for the major cities if they could build cost-effective mass
transit. It seems incapable of getting that job done though so it seems like
the only alternative is remote work, and without a cultural shift, that is
piecemeal solution. Also look at what happened to SB50, shot down by
effectively friendly fire from NIMBYs, not the conservatives.

[https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/05/california-
sb50...](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/05/california-sb50-housing-
zoning-wiener/)

