
From Hong Kong to Moscow, Protests Are Changing - kposehn
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/08/evolution-protests-conspiracy-theories-disinformation/595639/
======
dmix
> people-powered demonstrations seemed part of what political scientists refer
> to as a wave of democratization—a larger narrative about inevitable progress
> toward ever-greater freedom.

One could argue the opposite, that the governments around the world have only
been increasing in size and power (see: surveillance has massively increased
and speech is increasingly restricted), they’re not getting any smaller or
more liberal, putting greater pressure on citizens freedoms. This could merely
be a reaction to that, not some proactive ideological shift seeking greater
freedom - just not constantly less.

There was a famous study showing that almost all the major Arab spring
protests were initially spark by food prices and similar failures directly
affecting peoples day to day lives, not simply changes in political world-
views.

There’s also some claiming the policies of the World Bank and IMF have been a
big catalyst for these “bread” riots since the 1980s. As they often pushed for
greater amounts of food exports as a means of being economically self
sustaining. What ended up happening was a top down movement which replaced
normal food production with things like fruit popular in foreign countries and
run by a bunch of mini cartels in each country backed by the elite. Which only
increased the public’s dependency on gov subsidies for basic food costs as it
cannibalized the farmers industry and did little to increase the average
workers income.

~~~
arlk
Arab Spring was more about dignity and oppression Arabs felt with weak
government that can't ensure basic rights for its citizens, let alone many
treating the people like cattle. Food was part of that but not the main issue.

Take Syria for example, after initial protests government raised salaries but
lack of food wasn't what brought people together in the first place so
protests grew into full revolution then an armed rebellion continued till now.

Look at Egypt, now it's way way worse than Mubarak's era. Yet they are not
revolting for a reason.

In Algeria, they felt humiliated by having such a disabled president that
can't even speak.

Think about Bahrain too, a rich gulf state that witnessed massive protests.

Also not taking into account that people of different sectors of the societies
took part in different parts of the revolutions, protesting or fighting,
whether poor barely make a living or rich got back from overseas to make
history for its home country, is very insulting to their sacrifices, and
results in a very shallow and simplified view of how Arabs think.

------
acqq
However it is a fact, and not conspiracy theories, that a lot of the protests
and their leaders are directly sponsored by some specific powers from the
outside.

E.g. the text by Peter Pomerantsev in the article:

"Or take the 2000 Serbian revolution, where _students demonstrating_ against
Slobodan Milošević opposed his government’s war-mongering nationalism in favor
of a Serbia integrated with the international community."

But Roger Cohen in the New York Times, 2000:

[https://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/26/magazine/who-really-
broug...](https://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/26/magazine/who-really-brought-down-
milosevic.html)

"Backed by extensive financing from the United States, Otpor..."

"Just how much money backed this objective is not clear. The United States
Agency for International Development says that $25 million was appropriated
just this year"

"At the International Republican Institute, another nongovernmental Washington
group financed partly by A.I.D., an official named Daniel Calingaert says he
met Otpor leaders ''7 to 10 times'' in Hungary and Montenegro, beginning in
October 1999. Some of the $1.8 million the institute spent in Serbia in the
last year was ''provided direct to Otpor,'' he says."

"But other American help was as important as money. Calingaert's organization
arranged for a seminar at the luxurious Budapest Hilton from March 31 to April
3. There a retired United States Army colonel, Robert Helvey, instructed more
than 20 Otpor leaders in techniques of nonviolent resistance."

Those trained and financed there were then later engaged at other places and
"revolutions":

E.g.

Georgia:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kmara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kmara)

"It was formed by the Georgian student activists which received training by
the Serbian Otpor! through the funding of the OSI."

Egypt:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_6_Youth_Movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_6_Youth_Movement)

"Mohammed Adel, a leader in the April 6 movement, studied at the Centre for
Applied Nonviolent Action and Strategies, an organization founded by former
Otpor! members"

And there's even more in Wikipedia.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _a lot of the protests and their leaders are directly sponsored by some
> specific powers from the outside_

The American revolution would have failed without French support [1]. That
doesn’t mean the French controlled us. The liberation of France from Nazi
Germany would have failed without American support. We don’t control Paris.
These are stories if mutually-aligned interests being commonly pursued. Not
necessarily manipulation.

International coöperation doesn’t have to be a conspiracy. If we’ve learned
one thing from the last century of American interventionism, it’s that
prematurely prompting revolution produces inchoate governments.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Revol...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War)

~~~
acqq
> That doesn’t mean the French controlled us.

Who ever claimed that?

My claim, quoting the previous message: "it is a fact, and not conspiracy
theories, that a lot of the protests and their leaders are directly sponsored
by some specific powers from the outside."

What is there not true? What do you dispute from what I've written?

> If we’ve learned one thing from the last century of American
> interventionism, it’s that prematurely prompting revolution

So it seems you agree with me that there is such kind of sponsoring.

Some more links:

[https://www.commondreams.org/views/2018/03/15/trump-
gutting-...](https://www.commondreams.org/views/2018/03/15/trump-gutting-
national-endowment-democracy-and-thats-good-thing)

"The endowment is one of the main instruments by which the United States
subverts and undermines foreign governments. In a less Orwellian world, it
might be called the “National Endowment for Attacking Democracy.”"

"Whenever the government of another country challenges or defies the United
States, questions the value of unrestrained capitalism, limits the rights of
foreign corporations, or adopts policies that we consider socialist, the
Endowment swings into action. It pours over $170 million each year into labor
unions, political factions, student clubs, civic groups, and other
organizations dedicated to protecting or installing pro-American regimes. From
Central America to Central Asia, it is a vivid and familiar face of US
intervention."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democra...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democracy)

"funded primarily through an annual allocation from the U.S. Congress "

------
bkmeneguello
This is the result of cheap decentralized information. There are no more large
organizations deciding where and when the protests occur. There is no more
centralized subjects for protesters. This is entirely self organized in small
knowledge clusters. The centralized government is dieing, so is the democratic
authority. This will be more noticeable in more restrictive environments but
soon will be much more widespread. The mainstream media will attack these
changes since this go against their own existence, but even them will no least
a long time to stop these changes.

