
Ask HN: Making a mobile app as a back-end developer? - dogukanzengin
 My main area of expertise has been backend java development for years. I have a few mobile app ideas I have been designing the backend for a while. But since I have no frontend experience, I don&#x27;t know how to proceed. Should I start learning, which will take large amount of time since there are plenty of platforms you need to publish, or should I outsource it somehow ? If outsourcing is the right answer, where to find people I can work with ? Please forgive my English.
======
srameshc
Start learning. It has never been this easy to learn and build an App. I would
certainly recommend Flutter/Dart rather than any JS framework. Since you
mentioned Java, I personally think you will find working with Dart
comfortable. Flutter is cross platform and now you can also build Web apps,
though it is in beta. Flutter makes it easy for developers to play with the
design aspect of application development so it will be a great way to get
insight and learn a few things. It will be always challenging to outsource if
you are not sure about the capabilities or reliability of developer or team
you want to work with.

~~~
fauigerzigerk
I agree with starting to learn. But whether or not Flutter is the right choice
may depend the app.

Flutter allegedly consumes about twice as much memory as a native app. So I
guess it matters who the target audience is and what kind of device
specification can be expected.

Disclaimer: I have never written a Flutter app and I'm not sure if the
information I have found is still up-to-date.

~~~
la_fayette
Can you give any sources for twice as much memory argument of flutter compared
to native? What do you mean with memory exactly, is resulting binary twice as
big or does the flutter app neads twice as much main memory?

~~~
fauigerzigerk
I was looking for some benchmarks two weeks ago because I find Flutter
interesting, and I found two benchmarks showing twice as much RAM usage at
runtime (not the app binary) for some simple demo app. I no longer have the
link, but I can try to find it.

Edit: What I have also found is that there are plans (or ongoing work) to port
Flutter to Apple's Metal framework, which should cut memory usage by a lot on
iOS.

Edit 2: Here's one of the benchmarks: [https://thoughtbot.com/blog/examining-
performance-difference...](https://thoughtbot.com/blog/examining-performance-
differences-between-native-flutter-and-react-native-mobile-development-take-
two)

~~~
la_fayette
Hey cool thank you! This is an interessting question how different cross
platform approaches compare in terms of performance.

------
rubicon33
I started my career as a backend developer as well, and I'd like to echo
another comment in this thread:

Start learning. It has literally never been easier to build a mobile app.

Flutter is IMO the best option right now if you want to build a cross platform
app. I've developed native iOS applications, native android applications, and
even react-native applications that run on both ios/android. By far, hands
down, Flutter is THE BEST of all the options if you need to target both
platforms.

~~~
m11a
> By far, hands down, Flutter is THE BEST of all the options if you need to
> target both platforms.

Would you mind elaborating on why you feel this? Particularly why you
personally felt it to be better than React Native?

~~~
mikaelmello
I can't say for myself, but Nubank (one of the largest digital banks) wrote an
extensive report on why they chose Flutter.

[https://cdn.nubank.com.br/mobile/taskforce/nubank-mobile-
arc...](https://cdn.nubank.com.br/mobile/taskforce/nubank-mobile-architecture-
task-force-mission-report.pdf)

~~~
petagonoral
That's a good read. It's a pity the sample code repos aren't public.

------
ufmace
Just go ahead and start building. You didn't mention a mobile OS, but if you
know Java well, it should be straightforward to pick up Android development,
which is already in Java. IMO, don't bother with any other languages, unless
you really want to build the iOS version first. Just throw something together
for the UI to get started and get the core functionality working. Then, if it
feels too ugly, try working on that some.

You could maybe hire a contractor or something to help make the UI better if
needed. Personally, I wouldn't bother unless your app is published and
bringing in money, and you can make a business case that spending $X on making
it better will bring $Y more revenue. That would give you an idea of what's a
good amount to spend. I wouldn't worry about any of that yet though.

~~~
coin
Java to Swift is also very straightforward. Most of the learning is with OS’
API. It’s nothing a competent software person can’t handle.

~~~
cliqueiq
And also nothing a competent software person should waste their time on.

------
chrismmay
I took the same journey you are undertaking. It's quite doable. You'll need a
macbook to make a native iphone app. You'll need to sign up for Apple
Developer which costs $100 a year. You could go the web route, but you then
you won't really be learning native development for iOS and Android. Java for
Android and Swift for iOS are the way to go in my opinion. If you can afford
(or already have) a MacBook, like others have said, there is no reason not to
dive right in and start working. When I started I licensed AppCode from
JetBrains because I was used to IntelliJ. Eventually though I switched to
XCode like everyone else. One thing though, make sure your Mac has at least
256GB of RAM not just 128GB because XCode and all the updates will fill that
up very quickly.

~~~
rvz
> One thing though, make sure your Mac has at least 256GB of RAM not just
> 128GB because XCode and all the updates will fill that up very quickly.

I'm sure you meant disk space instead of RAM perhaps? I think it would be
overkill to obtain a Mac with 256 GB or 1 TB of RAM just to create iOS Apps.
;)

~~~
chrismmay
Yup, sorry, my mistake.

------
me551ah
Creating an app is quite easy. There are many cross platform solutions
available like Flutter, React Native and Xamarin and you should be up and
running quickly. I personally prefer Xamarin since I am more comfortable with
C# and really like its layout engine.

Though I know quite a few backend developers who have built apps and struggled
with the following issues.

1\. UI/UX - UX and UI are critical for an app and you might have to hire a
designer to create those interactions for you. Backend roles usually involve
no/little UI/UX work and it's easy to only focus on the functional bit of it.

2\. Updates - It's easy to rollback a backend codebase from production or
revert it to it's last state when something goes wrong. When deploying an app
you have no such option. Android updates take about a week to reach 80%
adoption. And if you encounter a critical bug in that time period, you have to
halt the rollback. You end up with some users on a new buggy version and some
users on an older version. This can be tricky to manage.

------
cerberusss
You either learn it yourself, or pay someone else. If you have more time than
money, then you learn it yourself. And vice versa, of course. It's really
quite simple.

If you want to learn and start with iOS, I'd advise doing the 100 Days of
SwiftUI:
[https://www.hackingwithswift.com/100/swiftui](https://www.hackingwithswift.com/100/swiftui)

The great thing about this course is that you can do it alongside your work,
because it's divided in chunks of 1 hour. My experience is that you can do it
in the evening, even after a full day of work.

~~~
cableshaft
I've been diving into SwiftUI recently and it's pretty satisfying (although I
used to do iOS development full-time back when it was all Objective-C, I've
been mostly in C#/.NET/Angular land for the past 6 years).

The framework is well designed and makes setting up the UI for native apps
pretty easy with a lot less coding than I'm used to for other frameworks. I'd
recommend looking into it if you don't care about cross platform (and I
wouldn't personally care about that right away if you're getting your feet wet
with mobile).

Swift is also a fun language to program in once you get the hang of it (and
yet it's not too different from other languages, so it shouldn't be too hard
to pick up coming from Java).

Although with previous Java experience Android might be easier for you to get
into.

------
karmakaze
I'm also a backend dev and have made some web frontend let projects. For
mobile, I find Flutter/Dart the easiest to work with. Feels somewhere in-
between TypeScript/js and Java. What's much more of a challenge is how to make
it look great and easy to use.

------
metalgearsolid
As a native iOS developer I will gladly help you answer some of these
questions if you want to provide more specifics on what you're looking to do.
Could you reply with your email, or put it in your HN profile? Or just
elaborate here?

On mobile we work with pretty high-level abstractions, so if you did this
yourself, most of the new stuff to you would be the frameworks like UIKit or
Core Data (at least on iOS).

Edit: Ray Wenderlich and objc.io are my go-to learning resources for iOS stuff

~~~
m11a
People suggest Ray Wenderlich often, and he seems great, but it's mostly
videos which I personally cannot learn from.

He has books, but they cost a fair bit (around $100/book iirc), and they're
not included in the subscription I think, unless I'm missing something.

------
AbstractFactor
If you know Java, Android can be programmed in Java or Kotlin (a Java like JVM
language).

A lot of Android is not front end. SQLite databases, models, maybe use cases,
JUnit unit tests etc. You know how to do a DAO to MySQL, Oracle or Sqlite? You
know how to do a JUnit unit test of a data structure? That part will be easier
then.

Keep UI simple - one Activity, Navigation and Fragments. Use a
ConstraintLayout and simple views like TextViews. Use a popular, simple image
library.

Much of Android work is not UI work. Keep the UI simple initially.

~~~
dehrmann
Most of the Android-specific stuff is around app lifecycle and yes, UI. And
you're right that a lot of this isn't so different from backend Java.

I'd suggest OP download Android Studio. It's based on IltelliJ, so there's a
good chance OP will feel right at home.

------
erokar
Check out Flutter/Dart. Lets you target both Android and iOS with one
codebase.

~~~
geoah
Plus one for flutter. There are a couple of ways to make windows/linux/macos
apps as well.

The way to design widgets is pretty horrible but you get used to it.

------
coder1977
If you want to test your ideas, better outsource the front end dev (upwork.com
would be an easy place to find talent that suits your budget) and have your
ideas built asap to see if they get any traction, if not you can kill them
quickly and move on to your next set of ideas.

If the goal is to build a project as a hobby and (maybe) make money from it,
best to learn any of the cross platform tools for mobile apps, here are some
popular ones: [https://hackernoon.com/9-popular-cross-platform-tools-for-
ap...](https://hackernoon.com/9-popular-cross-platform-tools-for-app-
development-in-2019-53765004761b)

Best of luck!

------
mooreds
I worked on an app as a backend developer with an intermediate understanding
of JavaScript/html. I was able to use Cordova to build out a functional
prototype. After that we were able to engage with a contracting firm and point
to the prototype as the requirements. This let them quote a firm fixed price,
which we of course enjoyed. Sorry, not sure how the contractor was found.

Depending on the functionality needed for your app idea (and your skills),
this might be a good path.

This was in the early 2010s.

~~~
dogukanzengin
Thanks for pointing out Cordova. Just took a quick look at it, this can be a
very good starting point, appreciate.

~~~
la_fayette
There is a competitive framework, named capacitor, which is developed by the
ionic team. Together with ionic, capacitor is very easy to get things done
fast...

------
jayd16
There's also the option of building a mobile web page if that's easier for
you. It's cross platform and no publishing headaches. Of course if you need
background execution or platform support it can be easier to just go the app
route.

------
maxencecornet
I work as a back-end developer, I've built several apps using react native &
expo and the experience was pretty good, I'm really happy with the results

------
sharma_pradeep
I have done all of them and from your comments it seems you start to like
Cordova, means you are interested in cross platform release. Anyway, I
recommend to read this first

 __My Background: __Coming from Java backend experience, I built multiple
android apps(native Android), tried react native and then learned Flutter. I
also outsourced two apps and successfully got it done in react native.

 __My Advice: __

1\. Do it yourself if you want to really learn mobile development. I recommend
to explore Flutter(cross-platform and similar to Java), try to build a sample
app in a day or two. Whether you succeed or not, ask yourself, how do you feel
now, would you want to learn and code yourself? Remember, it is going to take
a lot more time than you estimate now(when I learnt Android first, I estimated
a week to learn and years after, I 'm still learning, I shipped my first
decent app after 4 months, while working on backend parallely)

2\. If the answer is No to all above questions

Outsource the work. How?

A. Do you know any friend who'd want to do this?

B. Hire a developer on hourly basis to work with you closely and ofcourse
remotely. Where? Invide or Toptal. Few tips for successful outsourcing

\- __Do not go for upwork or freelancer or project basis work __

\- Teamwork is key, hire someone who 's a team player

\- Have weekly call to discuss progress with the dev. Discuss things other
than the project as well, build relationship. Transaction based approach does
not work.

\- Think how can you make it easy for the other person to understand. Can you
get every minute screen detail designed via a designer and hand it over to the
dev?

~~~
girishso
Would you still recommend Flutter over Cardova (with Elm app inside)?
Flutter/Dart seems cool, but I'm in love with Elm these days. Looking to build
a app by myself not outsourcing.

------
on_and_off
I started as a backend c++ dev, I am now a mobile dev. The transition was
actually pretty easy, especially since I had some familiarity with java
(mostly from the uni).

You already know java, learning Android should be pretty easy, whether you
leverage kotlin or not.

That would be the obvious option number 1 to develop your app.

Whether you want to :

\- do it in java or kotlin for Android

\- start with ios instead learning swift

\- use a crossplatform sdk. Caution, there is a reason why these sdks are
still only marginally used. It is not because mobile devs are grumpy but
because they come with some advantages and drawbacks and very often these
drawbacks are too important.

\- find somebody to code it for you.

will depend on what kind of app you are doing, and what you want to do with
it.

e.g. some kind of social app should probably be on all platforms because you
want to maximize network effects.

Photography apps are a bit easier to develop on iOS. As with everything
dealing with low level, having a smaller surface of change helps.

It depends also on your market.

------
CyanLite2
Xamarin. C# is close enough to Java that you won't need to re-learn anything.
Perfect for back-end devs trying to do Mobile and very friendly development
environment.

~~~
nmfisher
I'd actually suggest Flutter for the same reason. As a fresh entrant to mobile
dev, I found Xamarin apps to be peculiarly unstable, often crashing for no
apparent reason.

On the plus side, though, tooling for Xamarin is a lot nicer. VS is definitely
a first-class citizen, and being able to launch on a remote iOS
device/simulator from inside VS is a definite advantage.

------
hashamali
React Native is a good place to start. Not only would you be able to put
together mobile apps, but the knowledge would be applicable to building web
pages as well.

------
panpanna
A lot of people here recommend Flutter, React and similar. But these build
upon frontend technologies and use a frontend mindset you might find very
difficult to get into.

If you know Java, I would instead recommend going through Googles new Kotlin
courses for a week or so and see where that leads you:

[https://www.udacity.com/course/kotlin-bootcamp-for-
programme...](https://www.udacity.com/course/kotlin-bootcamp-for-programmers--
ud9011)

[https://codelabs.developers.google.com/advanced-android-
kotl...](https://codelabs.developers.google.com/advanced-android-kotlin-
training/)

[https://codelabs.developers.google.com/codelabs/kotlin-
andro...](https://codelabs.developers.google.com/codelabs/kotlin-android-
training-welcome/index.html#0)

Worst case, you have learned som kotlin which may eventually help you in your
day job since kotlin is getting big in backend too.

------
toast0
If you know Java already, you should feel pretty at home with the basics of
Android development. UI is tricky, but you can just smash some stuff together
in the UI builder to get started. When you have a bit of experience, you can
more easily judge the relevance and accuracy of the massive amount of internet
sources and your potential outsourcing partners.

------
jonplackett
It depends what you want to make and on what platform. I recently spent a year
or so learning Swift and I absolutely love it as a language.

My general advice is to pick a project that seems achievable fairly quickly
and do your learning while trying to make that real. It’s much more motivating
than learning for learning’s sake and only then actually making something.

------
strikelaserclaw
I was in the same situation, got myself a macbook, learned ios development
over a weekend and just learned as i went along with trying to develop the
app. I think the important thing is just to get started on something instead
of thinking too big.

------
ivan_gammel
For cross-platform development you can learn ionic. TypeScript/Angular
resembles Java and Spring a bit, UI is based on HTML and CSS, which you
probably already know. I think it’s the easiest entry to both Android and iOS
at once for Java developers and it works surprisingly well (we just released
nice medical app on this platform). My main advice will be here not technical
one: invest your time in UX, build wireframe (or even paper) prototype of your
app and test on 3-5 real users. Then test final design. There will be useful
insights for sure, which may save you a lot of effort and you’ll get less one
star ratings after launch.

------
randomor
I'm one of those backend developers who created this app that was showcased
here last week (ZenJournal):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21876939](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21876939)
I started my career as a mobile dev so getting back to mobile from web was not
very scary to me although I've forgot most of what I've learned 7 years ago.
Luckily React Native is an very easy entry point, because I still sometimes
help with frontend tasks at my work with React, so that's what I used.

------
julius_set
As an engineer who’s done most of it:

• Native iOS / Android for years • Backend development • Frontend web
development • Machine learning models

I would suggest you one thing:

Do your research on finding really good succinct tutorials. The best approach
is asking the right question on google.

You usually find tons of blogs / tutorials with very basic or simple examples.
Your task — if you want to learn it — is to _research_ and find the best
tutorial that covers the most ground in the shortest amount of time. This is
not easy to do, but that’s a good skill quick learners have.

------
soulchild37
If you know Java already, learning Android shouldn't be too difficult, mostly
just need to learn the lifecycle of activity (the view / UI) and some Android
SDK stuff

~~~
on_and_off
the hardest part is to learn "modern android" and not to be bogged down by all
the old ways to do things that you can find on the web.

e.g. lifecycles, we now have good tools to wrap them and don't really have to
care about them.

The official doc is a good starting point.

------
giancarlostoro
Don't be afraid to target the web for your front-end. Progressive Web Apps can
be put on app stores and installed on phones without an app store technically.
I too have been mostly a back-end guy, but since I am a younger developer I
got pulled into front-end work in the middle of my back-end marathon and have
done both since, I don't usually do Full Stack though, I try to focus on one
at a time where possible.

------
BrandoElFollito
I am an amateur dev, developing for fun and to annoy my family with home
automation.

I needed to build front-ends and went the JS way. Vue.js and a framework
(bootstrap vue for instance) and you are good to go.

With PWA you can make such an app very similar to a native one.

In terms of effort, for an amateur Python dev like myself, it took maybe a
weekend to understand how this works, and then more time to get the details.

------
brudgers
Just start the thing you want to make. Figure things out as you go. You'll
make mistakes. So what?

------
melling
I have around 30 small Swift iOS examples on Github.

[https://github.com/melling/ios_topics](https://github.com/melling/ios_topics)

I’d pick one platform and build a great app for it. If you go Android, Kotlin
looks like the way to go.

------
PretzelFisch
I am just kind of looking to make the same journey but from c++/C#. What is
the recommendation for a good macbook? should I be looking at a macbook pro?
In regards to Android what table or phone should I invest in as a testing
platform?

------
lazyjones
Perhaps this if it still works
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12879179](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12879179)

Personally, I'd go with Flutter, but it's still a lot to learn...

------
pryelluw
Depends on the apps you want to build. What would be the first app youd
create?

------
zazzlez
I would say, jfdi. You can provably build a decent mvp in a few weeks from
scratch with no prior knowledge in a tool of your choice. I would personally
chose react native + typescript + mobx.

------
cobbzilla
Has anyone tried Vue-Native? [1] Curious if this is a viable option for a web-
based app.

[1] [https://vue-native.io/](https://vue-native.io/)

------
Razengan
Have a look at SwiftUI:

[https://developer.apple.com/tutorials/swiftui/](https://developer.apple.com/tutorials/swiftui/)

~~~
bsaul
As an ios developer, i wouldn’t recommend someone to go into swiftUI, but
rather directly go straight to cross platform techs. SwiftUI is still a niche,
even amongst iOS devs.. the documentation is still lacking and the knowledge
won’t be useful to anything else ( not to mention the fact that it’s
transforming swift into a frankenstein language)

React native or flutter seems more long term ( although i must say i find them
also problematic in some regards ).

Knowing the OP works with java, i would also recommend another option going
with kotlin and do android only, as it i by far the largest market, and you
will have a far lesser risk to get banned from the store for dubious reasons.

Edit : reading other comments i realize the cordova / ionic option also makes
perfect sense on today’s hardware. Just make sure you understand the
limitations and try a few apps made with that tech from the store first.

~~~
Razengan
> _going with kotlin and do android only, as it i by far the largest market_

From what I read here and there, that's a half-baked myth in a number of ways.
Android users often lag behind the latest Android version, lacking access to
the latest features. In terms of revenue as well, Android apps don't seem to
be ahead of their iOS counterparts. Someone with experience in publishing for
both ecosystems may be able to correct/corroborate this.

SwiftUI targets iOS, macOS, tvOS and watchOS, all counting for over a billion
users combined. That's a substantial market, even when considering that it's
limited to the latest version of each OS. And it's obvious that Apple's focus
will be on SwiftUI going forward.

~~~
bsaul
you can’t combine ios/watchos/macos sales and reach 1.4b users. That’s
probably the same people owning multiple apple devices.

But by that metric android is 2.5 billions.

now depending on your business, you may indeed want to target ios users as
well, but gone are the days of « ios first, then maybe android later » (except
maybe for tablets, where the ipad reigns alone).

As for swiftui, apple does indeed seems to be pushing forward with the tech,
but at this point i don’t think it matters much anymore. Videogames are
developped with cross platform tools ( because 3d) , form-based apps are
developed with cross platforms tools (because ui performance is now good
enough). All we’re left with are non-gaming interactive apps where you still
need maximum responsiveness. And even in this case you’re often better just
developping only that screen natively and leave the rest cross platform.

------
ryanmccullagh
You seem like a software engineer and mobile development is just an area of
software engineering. Is time a concern? I believe you can learn a new
technology stack.

------
ketzo
I haven’t seen it said here, but Swift and SwiftUI make it very easy to make
stuff that looks good without knowing a thing about design.

------
tomerbd
Answer HN: [http://flutter.io/](http://flutter.io/)

------
jhales
Take a look at expo. Rapid development with a minimum amount of domain
specific setup knowledge.

------
cliqueiq
I was a back-end & full-stack guy for some time, doing things from ETL stuff
to pipe-lining more colorful things interfacing with things from search, other
analysis, etc... I started doing more "real" software development midway into
college and was lucky (or maybe unlucky) enough to be able to develop my
skills with a pretty full-stack spectrum (now doing things with Dart, React,
to Python, Java, Docker, ES, Reddis, Helm, Jenkins, K8, AWS/GCP, etc, etc...).

I love Java (literally the best). Django is easy. Go is alright. jQuery &
Bootstrap are great. Moving into heavy UI i.e, React/Redux, the entire JS
ecosystem, mobile fragmentation, absurd, pointless policy changes in the UI
world are absolutely 10x more annoying, difficult, arbitrary, meaningless,
buggy, and horrible than anything back-end. TensorFlow, Unstructured-Data,
NoSQL, CI/CD? No problem. You have an API, documentation that works, Linux
systems that are consistent, predictable, repeatable. UI/UX? Changes every
day. Docs from 2 years ago often don't work. Lower barrier to entry, lower
quality ecosystem. Security & supply-chain nightmare. Fragmentation for no
reason other than large corporations focusing on bottom lines and leaking
core-rot. It's a insult to time investment.

I can build a full-stack, horizontally scalable, complex, awesome system with
whatever tools you want I can guarantee you that no matter what you throw at
me, I'll spend prob 75% screwing around with JS bugs, mobile garbage, awful
ecosystems, and pointless garbage that at the end of the day comes down to
nitpicking about pixel performance and arbitrary platforms.

I know I'm not the only who's wasted countless hours of my own time, clients
money, companies time, and real-end-user money and value on things that were
shiny and interesting to a PM or UX team and ended up sinking over half the
cost of project on effectively nothing. The people that make the decisions
don't understand it, because UI/UX is literally all they can "see". It's
insanity. If I ever start a company, I'd love to model it off a concept like
Stripe; such a beautiful concept of a beautiful idea run by some of the
smartest guys out there, all based entirely off an API. No play-store
policies, shifting trends, corporate politics, useless garbage, pure JS
developers maintaining random repo's for tools that don't need to be built.

If you're smart, be like Amazon, Google, Facebook and every other huge idea:
Make an unresponsive, useful front-end and just say no to fancy UI. Amazons
website is an glorious defiance to the quite frankly disgusting culture of
what robs real engineers time and resources away from something like curing
disease, balancing equality, providing security, and focusing on things that
could actually make the world a better place. Look at this site right here.
Look what happened to Reddit.

If it's more than Bootstrap and you're not funded, just say no to UI/UX. JUST
SAY NO.

EDIT: There's probably some good takeaways from the book "Zen and the Art of
Motorcycle Maintenance". Do yourself and the world a favor by not feeding this
economy of engineered over-complexity and willful-ignorance, especially in
this day in age. Our species might be about to go extinct. There's more
important things to do. Seriously.

------
wolco
You should download: quasar.dev

or

the ionic.io framework

