
OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency - orless
https://okfn.de/blog/2018/02/openschufa-english/
======
a254613e
Reading the funding goals[0] I don't understand why there is a funding goal of
30k to develop... an OCR app?

Wouldn't it make more sense, from both financial and technical standpoint to
accept raw images then do the OCR server side? Server side OCR probably has
more resources, and can utilize better OCR software. And you can re-run it
after some time on every image if the results aren't that accurate.

[0] -
[https://www.startnext.com/openschufa](https://www.startnext.com/openschufa)

~~~
vavoida
just raw images would cause major privacy & data protection issues

~~~
a254613e
Fair enough. I've donated, even though I still think that developing OCR app
might be a bit waste of resources.

I still find it to be lesser "evil" than schufa - which, I'm pretty sure, is
also extremely discriminatory towards people who move to Germany and giving
them worse score by default. Hopefully you'll get enough optional data to be
able to prove that too.

~~~
hocuspocus
Not defending the Schufa, I strongly believe that any kind of aggregated
credit history should never be in the hands of private companies.

But when I moved to Germany, I was under the impression that potential
landlords just want to make sure you don't have negative entries, and didn't
care much for the actual score. Luckily I managed to find an apartment
belonging to a Russian investor, who didn't ask for my record at all. In the
end I never got myself to even request a free report.

~~~
a254613e
Yes, that's what's important for landlords. You get a letter from scufa saying
"There are no negative entries for this person". That's enough.

However if you try to get a phone contract, credit card, internet contract, or
anything else that requires payment in the future then your score is pretty
much the only relevant part.

And that score is (maybe it varies by country) completely abysmal by default
if you've moved to Germany - and it improves very slowly (<1%/yr).

~~~
hocuspocus
I had no issue signing up for internet with 1&1 for two years, and got a free
SIM card in the process.

As for credit cards, that's pretty common, traditional banks want to see your
salary landing on your checking account for a few months before they issue you
a credit card. Comdirect gave me a prepaid VISA in the meantime.

Anyway I ended up using a debit card (the MasterCard from N26) for almost
everything, and later on I got a Gold credit card from Advanzia (I believe
they do get information from the Schufa, but you also start with a pretty low
monthly limit and need to prove them you pay your bills before they raise it).

~~~
kuerbel
You really shouldn't use N26. I don't know if they have improved the security
of their app during the past two years, but here is a talk from 33c3
[https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7969-shut_up_and_take_my_money](https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7969-shut_up_and_take_my_money)

It's worth watching. They show how they where able to take over accounts and
such.

------
larrydag
I work in the credit finance space. The first thing that jumps out to me is
the security and privacy of people's credit data details. There is a lot of
personal information that could be used for stealing one's identity. What
assurances are there that this data is protected and anonymous?

~~~
vavoida
The data and credit scores are sent from the credit score agencies to each
person directly (via snail-mail). After that they can decide to upload their
"anonymized" data or not. In order to develop a privacy focused uploading
process we started the crowdfunding campaign.

~~~
erikb
So you don't just need my data, you also want my money. Great! (sarcasm in
case it's not clear)

~~~
sgift
It's almost as if some things are hard and need funding AND help. Who would've
thought?

------
bluesign
If this is really ‘open’, how we can access submitted data?

Otherwise comments here about this project funded by competitor is making this
a bit fishy.

~~~
vavoida
1\. date is not open yet, first people have to request the data (will take
probalby 4-6 weeks until they get the credit scores)

2\. see below
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16391885](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16391885)

~~~
bluesign
If it will be open there is no problem at all.

------
vavoida
FYI in case you speak German, this project is currently all over the news in
Germany, causing quite a stir.

TV
[http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/schufa-101.html](http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/schufa-101.html)
[https://www1.wdr.de/mediathek/video/sendungen/wdr-
aktuell/vi...](https://www1.wdr.de/mediathek/video/sendungen/wdr-
aktuell/video-schufa-score-transparent-machen--100.html)
[https://www.n-tv.de/ratgeber/Aktivisten-wollen-Schufa-
Code-k...](https://www.n-tv.de/ratgeber/Aktivisten-wollen-Schufa-Code-knacken-
article20288673.html)

Online [https://www.wired.de/collection/life/openschufa-macht-
bonita...](https://www.wired.de/collection/life/openschufa-macht-bonitaets-
scoring-ueberpruefbar)
[http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/service/kreditwuerdigkeit-w...](http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/service/kreditwuerdigkeit-
wie-die-schufa-formel-zu-knacken-ist-a-1193522.html)
[https://www.golem.de/news/openschufa-reverse-engineering-
der...](https://www.golem.de/news/openschufa-reverse-engineering-der-schufa-
geplant-1802-132791.html) [https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/OpenSCHUFA-
Projekt-w...](https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/OpenSCHUFA-Projekt-will-
Scoring-Methoden-rekonstruieren-3970425.html)
[https://www.gruenderszene.de/allgemein/openschufa-
algorithmu...](https://www.gruenderszene.de/allgemein/openschufa-algorithmus-
bonitaet-auskunft)
[https://www.futurezone.de/netzpolitik/article213448091/OpenS...](https://www.futurezone.de/netzpolitik/article213448091/OpenSCHUFA-
will-mit-Crowdfunding-die-Schufa-Formel-knacken.html)
[https://netzpolitik.org/2018/jetzt-mitmachen-wir-knacken-
die...](https://netzpolitik.org/2018/jetzt-mitmachen-wir-knacken-die-schufa/)

most motivational video, ever
[https://youtu.be/HBsD8BdXSCY](https://youtu.be/HBsD8BdXSCY)

2 current related article worth reading
[http://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/regierungsberater-
gerd...](http://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/regierungsberater-gerd-
gigerenzer-wir-sind-laengst-auf-dem-weg-in-den-
ueberwachungsstaat/20950328-all.html)
[http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/dass-wir-
ueberwach...](http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/dass-wir-ueberwacht-
werden-ist-klar-aber-von-wem-und-wie-eine-spurensuche-15445555.html)

(disclaimer I'm part of the team)

~~~
chrisper
Did you also cite the part where you are being financially supported by
Bertelsmann Stiftung who have a competing product (Arvato Infoscore)? Though I
am not sure if it is as bad as they claim...

~~~
vavoida
a. is disclosed by our partner algorithmwatch b. the funding is not for this
project c. see
[https://twitter.com/OpenSchufa/status/964408780162150400](https://twitter.com/OpenSchufa/status/964408780162150400)
"Die SCHUFA ist die bekannteste Auskunftei & Marktführer; wir fordern in
unserer Projektbeschreibung u.a.: "Die SCHUFA & andere Auskunfteien müssen
öffentlich & permanent darlegen, wie ihr Score funktioniert bzw. welche
Modelle/Annahmen ihm zu Grunde liegen (Nachvollziehbarkeit)" d. read
[https://okfn.de/blog/2018/02/openschufa-
english/#update](https://okfn.de/blog/2018/02/openschufa-english/#update) (we
already requesting infoscore Consumer Data GmbH data)

~~~
akie
For everyone not fluent in German:

c. "The SCHUFA is the best known credit reporter & market leader. In our
project description we ask: The SCHUFA & other credit bureaus must publicly
and permanently explain how their score works and which models / assumptions
are based on it (traceability)"

------
knoke
I'd love to understand what you expect to find (given that you might have some
special insight into credit scoring). I'd guess that the "algorithm" could be
an embarrassingly simple sum of thumbs up/down for a handful of items. Like:
If a person lives in a thumbsup/thumbsdown/nothumbs neighborhood etc.

~~~
vavoida
wrt algo - afaik the biggest credit rating agency in Germany is "just" using a
logistic regression. details will follow.

~~~
knoke
that is interesting! I'm very curious about the more :)

~~~
vavoida
[http://openschufa.de](http://openschufa.de) will be place for updates will
take a couple of weeks, project will run for months to come

------
pseingatl
Next target: Fair, Isaac. Perhaps the OpenSCHUFA project can be convinced to
take on Fair, Isaac next.

~~~
orless
17 years living in Germany, never heard of Fair, Isaac. Creditreform and
Arvato are much likely next targets.

------
johannes1234321
Might be worth noting that OpenSCHUFA has some ties to the Bertelsmann
Foundation, which owns Arvato Infoscore, a SCHUFA competitor.

~~~
Sujan
Might be worth to tell the full story, as well:

\- OpenSCHUFA was initiated by Open Knowledge Foundation Deutschland and
Algorithmwatch, two independent and established NGOs.

\- Algorithmwatch is supported by a foundation/trust called "Bertelsmann
Stiftung".

\- There is also a company called "Bertelsmann", which owns Arvato Infoscore,
a competitor to SCHUFA.

\- The Bertelsmann Stiftung (which is supporting Algorithmwatch which is co-
initiator of OpenSCHUFA) owns a majority of shares of the company (that owns
Arvator Infoscore, a competitor to SCHUFA), and some people say the foundation
and company are tightly tied together.

\- And last but not least Schufa now places in the press, that this is a big
conflict of interest.

~~~
vavoida
As stated before, we are not only asking for SCHUFA but also arvato data, see
blogpost [https://okfn.de/blog/2018/02/openschufa-
english/#update](https://okfn.de/blog/2018/02/openschufa-english/#update)

------
expertentipp
SCHUFA is demanding a passport copy from EU citizens to obtain the annual
unpaid data overview report. A citizen of an EU country residing in Germany is
under no obligation to hold a passport. I don't understand how until now no
one torn the SCHUFA credit bureau into pieces over it.

[https://i.imgur.com/nEZRJDv.png](https://i.imgur.com/nEZRJDv.png)

~~~
lispm
> A citizen of an EU country residing in Germany is under no obligation to
> hold a passport.

Any EU citizen needs a passport or equivalent in Germany. One needs it already
when entering Germany. Though you don't need to carry it all time with you.
But you need to have one.

~~~
expertentipp
A citizen of EU country has no obligation to hold a passport while in another
EU country in case their country issues other document confirming both
identity and nationality of a citizen e.g. a national ID.

~~~
TomK32
lipsm wrote "passport or equivalent" and you are jumping to "passport".

Here's the law: [http://www.gesetze-im-
internet.de/freiz_gg_eu_2004/__8.html](http://www.gesetze-im-
internet.de/freiz_gg_eu_2004/__8.html)

EU citizens in Germany have to carry a passport or equivalent.

~~~
expertentipp
> EU citizens in Germany have to carry a passport or equivalent.

..and no one has the right to demand _explicitly_ passport if one is able to
produce an equivalent and valid document e.g. national ID.

------
orless
When applying for a loan, mobile phone contract, or even trying to rent an
apartment in Germany, the Schufa score - Germany's credit rating - is
decisive. If you have a few "points" too little, your application is refused.
(Computer says "No" to your new smartphone or apartment.) However, the
calculation of these credit scores - done by the private Schufa company - is
fully intransparent. The formula is a trade secret, and as such not open to
the public.

We want to change this intransparency with the project OpenSCHUFA. Open
Knowledge Foundation together with AlgorithmWatch want to reconstruct the
Schufa algorithm with "reverse engineering".

~~~
philfrasty
„...even trying to rent an apartment in Germany...“

While this MAY be true in a lot of cases it certainly is not all the time.
From my experience 50/50.

~~~
dna_polymerase
50/50 may hold true if you are renting directly from the owner. If a real
estate agent is involved (or something like degewo) it is somewhere around
100% of all cases.

~~~
philfrasty
+1 for owner. Luckily you can choose (still).

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erikb
This is pure advertisement. Please stop misusing our forum for ads.

~~~
orless
I am not affiliated with OpenSCHUFA.

