
Reflections on Stress and Long Hours on Wall Street - trustfundbaby
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/02/business/dealbook/reflections-on-stress-and-long-hours-on-wall-street.html
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BadassFractal
The part that I totally don't grok about big name consulting companies, or
Wall Street, is how people there are able to get any work done while sleeping
3-4 hours a night for months at a time.

Most will agree that you need a continuous stream of good nights of sleep if
you're doing any kind of work that requires creative thought, ability to
associate concepts from different domains, thinking about problems from
different angles etc. Sure, you can miss sleep once or twice here and there,
and you can still get away with doing menial repetitive tasks, but even those
are going to be a bit of a struggle.

In software, we clearly understand that people who continuously work 14 hour
days are not actually producing 14 hours worth of clear-headed work. In fact,
once you factor in the damage generated by the low quality of deliverables,
they might be producing far less than even 8 hours of work. As an industry
we've done decades of deathmarches, and we mostly know that those things don't
really work. Has this realization not hit the rest of the work world, or are
we as developers simply wimpier than other professions?

How does this work in the Wall Street world? Is the idea that it doesn't
matter how good your work is, as long as you show martyr-level dedication to
the company? Or, are these people superhuman, and are they able to do 14 hours
worth of quality work every day for ever? In which case, can I have whatever
they're having?

I'd really love to understand this.

~~~
crdb
Anecdotal evidence of course:

It's mindless work, mostly. There's little creative work. And you're pumped up
on adrenalin.

I spent 2 months in consulting. Here's a sample.

We slept on average 2-4 hours a night. We traded off eating in the morning vs
an extra half hour's sleep - after about two weeks, I yielded and did like
everybody else (no breakfast, even though the buffet was sumptuous including
home pickled herrings I still dream about). The partners/EMs would meet with
the client and then tell us the 400 slides that needed to be produced for next
week's board meeting, and sometimes fleshed them out. We then put together the
slides, and did whatever BS research needed to be done to justify the numbers
(quick Google, hit a database, or - before my time - systematic interviewing
of 300 people to create the data necessary, yes, the consultants did the
interviewing!). An EM put it to me like this: "Are we 20x as expensive as
their in-house talent, certainly; but we'll get it done 10x faster, and
without any visual mistakes, and that's all they care about."

I took a weekend (yes, "took" a weekend, because we were supposed to work
every day, although we could come in at 10am on Sunday to catch up on sleep)
to see an opera in Italy. The train did not have mobile reception. I
discovered upon arriving in Verona that I had to produce 50 slides - each with
4 graphs I had to calculate - in 6 hours. I did them, emailed them, went to
the opera, had an excellent roast beef with Amarone, got drunk on negronis,
came to the hotel to find more work. I passed out on the bed from exhaustion
and set about doing it on the train back to Zurich (unrelated factoid: on the
train to Italy, Italian customs walked through the train and interrogated the
only black guy in the wagon).

One of the team members cracked and overslept by one hour one day instead of
turning up for the morning cab to the client. She was mocked about it for a
month. We ate sandwiches from a vending machine in the client's corridor. Our
EM threw a fit once because McKinsey had booked out one of the 5* hotels in
town, BCG the other (both working for the same client as us, funnily enough)
and we were stuck with the Ibis Hotel. I didn't understand the swearing in
German but I still remember the sound of "Ibis Hotel" fired in anger. I
thought it was funny, personally I didn't care, Ibis hotel or luxury palace,
it's still a bed and a warm powershower, and I can't have breakfast anyway.

Everybody got extremely depressed once when one of the partners went home at
7pm right after posting a Facebook status update along the lines of "Damn,
still at work :( :(". Our return taxi (S-class of course) was booked for
something like 2-3am...

I made around 2k/month from my food allowance alone because I ate sandwiches
and it was no questions asked cash. We had steak delivery to change us from
the vending machine sandwiches, but couldn't enjoy it. Ate the steak in front
of the laptop. The hotels and limos were awesome, but what is the point of a
balcony the size of a small swimming pool if you never see the sun, and what
is the point of a 2m long jacuzzi if you don't have time to take a bath? Some
people stopped ironing their shirts to get more sleep, I tried to use room
service or my own iron and starch because I foolishly thought I had a career
to manage (the EMs didn't care, it's not like us junior folks were client
facing).

The lack of sleep was physically painful. By the third night all your body
would ache, your eyes would ache from behind, headaches were constant, you
were in zombie mode. It sucked but you just saddled up and kept going because
everybody else did. Visual perfectionism was constant - I was told off for
being 5 minutes late to a cab pickup, and for misaligning an object on a slide
by a millimetre. After this, you just stress yourself into double checking
your work, all the time, sometimes triple checking, even though it's just as
painful. You also eat more from stress, so put on weight. One EM put on enough
weight in a month to crack his suit trousers, and went to the supermarket
during lunch to buy a couple new pairs.

So yeah, productivity takes a hit, but the sheer amount of hours and
generally, the type of people who get into these firms (overachieving,
slightly hyperactive, energetic, driven) are more productive per hour on this
type of work.

At the end of the case, about half the team quit. Aforementioned lady went to
the Kennedy School in Harvard and works for the Brasilian government or
something. I joined a trading company. The EM moved to Australia to work on
miners' strategy, the other EM to Saudi doing more consulting, but with
different working conditions (apparently they get weekend business class
flights to anywhere in the world no questions asked in that office).

A few months later, I read in the paper that the client had been acquired by a
large foreign group. I thought back about what we were actually doing, and I
realized there had been three groups: the management, the board and the
shareholders. We worked for the management since they had the power to hire us
for more cases. We justified their bad decisions to the board, who themselves
had to cover their own behinds enough to be able to pretend they did their
work to the shareholders. The company's loss in value over two years was a
direct result of a bad strategic decision by management which handed over the
market to the one direct competitor. The board was also at fault for not
thinking about the stupidity of the one decision in question. In my mind at
least.

I'm told it's not always like this, that sometimes you're sent to Sydney with
a $40k/month expense account and 9-5 "strategy level" work, that after the
financial crisis belts were tightened etc. Hell I had drinks in the Sydney
Sheraton spa with a McKinsey buddy recently who was doing just that.
Nevertheless I'm not going back to this industry any time soon, it's just not
worth it when it's not your equity.

Trading was a different type of intensity. After a particularly active day,
even though I had worked only from 9am til around 4.30pm (no lunch, no time),
I passed out on the train home. Here, a mistake didn't cost you just a
bollocking, it cost the company thousands or even hundreds of thousands of
dollars (millions were usually gains, after the other side made a mistake, we
were careful). I was a lot more conscientious than my predecessor and only
made three mistake in thousands of trades, saving the company a lot of money
just by doing my job properly on the execution side; I think my biggest
execution mistake lost us $30,000 on $10m so not too bad. Initially, I took
the habit from consulting over and had dinner at the office, reheating
supermarket dishes in the microwave; but the office was empty after 6pm which
was a big realization, that these people made a lot more money and were a lot
happier than "us consultants" whilst working less. I guess that's when what
you say above about quality vs quantity hit me.

What was motivation? Well, consulting firms sell you the idea that you'll be
at the top of the world if only you stick it out long enough, part of the
elite that you presumably aren't yet (even if born there). I think banks are
similar. (I later read Richistan, linked it with observations, and realized
this "elite" was really just the lowest rung, the "employee" layer in the
multi layered world of wealth; that these employees, if unable to ignore it,
generally get pretty depressed about being in contact with the upper layers
all the time; that wealth is really a relative, not absolute thing, above
having enough to eat and sleep and send your kids to school.)

Ego is a big thing. A lot of consultants/bankers think themselves more
hardcore, smarter, better somehow than the plebs (a lot of them are
mercenaries, understand the game and go through the motion for the paycheck).
You'd hear people introducing others as "it's so and so, he's from GS IBD" and
a wave of relief would go over your body as you would think "ok, that's one of
us, I can trust he understands, I can really talk to him". Even today, when I
tell finance people I was in finance and talk about markets, they relax and
get a lot more open. It's funny because that's rarely the case with
developers.

Money is another, not the money right now but the promise of big bucks if only
(again) you stick it out for a few more years. The high drop out rate is a
function of realizing that either you won't make it, or that no money is worth
it, or - in fewer cases - that someone with the level of
talent/intelligence/drive these companies select for can actually make a lot
more money/achievement/impact somewhere where you're not working for someone
else. Or you realize that you're living someone else's dream (perhaps one
fabricated by careful PR from the firms in question, and peer pressure) and
you go on to live your own life.

The funny thing is that entrepreneurs are very respected amongst consultants
and bankers despite making - on average - a lot less money and having a lower
net worth. Stick it out til private equity or hedge funds and you'll have a
shot at billions which is much rarer in startup land. Yes, but those billions
have someone else's name on them, and that ultimately makes all the difference
in the status pissing contest. YMMV.

I have a feeling this comment is going to come bite me back some time in the
future :P

~~~
Omniusaspirer
Very interesting writeup, I appreciate you taking the time!

Can I ask what exactly got you into this life? Was it just the drive to make
big money and be one of the "elites"? Family pressure?

~~~
lordnacho
I went to Oxford as well. There's a sort of soft sell there at recruitment
season: It's heavily implied that the most successful people go into Banking
and Consulting. They don't say it out loud, it's just what everyone concludes
after seeing all the PR.

I caught up with a friend who did the same engineering course. He's in private
equity, like many of our classmates. We talked about this one girl who decided
to actually go into engineering. She joined a company called SpaceX as an
early employee back in the days after uni. How we wish we'd done that.

~~~
crdb
I don't know if it's the same for you Oxonians but my colleagues who headed
for consulting/banking straight after graduation are often retraining to go
into engineering, and many of the engineers are now heading towards
consulting! I guess the grass is always greener on the other side. The
engineers want money and status, the consultants want meaning and a healthier
life.

Although SpaceX is pretty awesome. I wanted to apply to Lockheed, Northrop and
anybody else involved in aviation and space (reading about the X-37B these
days, I still get that pulse of excitement), but unfortunately, they needed US
citizens. Many of my neighbours ended up working for the various F1 teams. I
worked briefly for Schlumberger's research centre in Cambridge which was, in
hindsight, awesome. A massive, airy site, loads of expensive toys, really cool
fun "engineer types" complete with thick beard, and an awesome French-run
canteen including traditional Thursday leg roasts. What academia should be
like! I got to chop stuff and make high tech toys and test them with not an
MBA in sight.

edit - and the most academically successful people almost all went on to MIT
to do a PhD. No idea why. Something about that place.

~~~
lordnacho
Well, funnily enough I seem to be going that way. I know an awful lot about
the financial side of things (Options, derivatives, etc), but I'm more and
more drawn towards technological things such as latency minimization and smart
execution.

I think the real problem is pay. I got offered £11K/pa for an internship in
engineering out in the middle of nowhere. I ended up taking an internship in
marketing for 15. My friend at Goldman got 37.

~~~
crdb
To be fair unskilled new grads - in any subject, from any university - aren't
worth much. Even the banks basically take a bet on which 20 of the 200 of the
intake will survive and absorb enough knowledge to produce value (basically a
bunch of cheap OTM calls). The first few years of experience determine a lot
of things because they allow you to gain the competency and experience you can
then sell as useful work (and thus decent coin).

The prof that sent me to India called me to his office on my last week, and
showed me Legionnaire by Murray which he was reading. Told me it was an
interesting read and I should check it out, so I did. The gist of Murray's
advice was that you don't need to follow the tracks of the set career path to
do well in life; in his case, he went soldiering aged 17 in Algeria at the
worst period of the bloodiest colonial war the French ever waged, in the unit
specifically set up to do the dirty work, and that was his "higher education".
He then went off to Hong Kong and somehow rose to run a bank there, and
through a bunch of international adventures is now chairman of Glencore. I
don't know what the standard is for saying someone led an interesting life but
he certainly qualifies.

I think the prof's point was to go and take some risks and go east young man
and live a richer life, which I more or less ended up doing, but I'm not
chairman of Glencore, not even a Hong Kong bank director, so don't know
whether my judgement that it was worth it really is worth much.

~~~
lordnacho
And how many top managers these days don't have an MBA? There's a sense that
jobs used to be somewhat open-skilled, in that everyone could just sit down
and learn them. That's still the case, but nowadays you need paper to prove
it.

The exception is in new business areas, which is why they are probably also
the most interesting for career travellers. Anything that has shortages needs
to entertain applications from people without credentials.

The economy is also not growing at a fantastic rate compared to earlier times,
and the job market even less so.

~~~
crdb
Almost none of the trading heads had an MBA. Even within the traditional
management, few of the ex-consultants had one. And yet the business is one of
the oldest ones in the world. The key is that the main requirement for moving
up was the value created for the firm (which was and still is privately held,
mostly between the founding family and the head traders); this did not seem to
correlate with having an MBA, but the firm culture was to grow talent rather
than hire outsiders.

I've seen businesses where MBAs hire more of themselves "at competitive
salaries" and nobody actually has any hard skills. Those have very negative
cash flow, but also are very good at raising more money to match it. Not a fan
of the degree, but maybe I just saw the bottom of the barrel.

~~~
lordnacho
Actually where I started the partners were mostly school leavers who'd worked
their way up from (literally) running around with bits of paper. Some of those
guys are roughly in their late 40s-50s, running some big desks around the
City.

But they don't seem to hire anyone without a degree anymore.

------
curiousDog
And the pressure is more intense on middle class Indians (most of whom come
here for a Bachelors or Masters) and are on a H1-B. The H1-B is basically
corporate enslavement and add to that the sadistic societal structure of
Indian culture, you have a perfect recipe where young professionals are caught
in-between the devil and the deep blue sea: Either work your ass off (I used
to work 80+ hrs) to please your manager (most of the time without any
recognition) or say FU and head back to India to face the shameful wrath of
both your parents and relatives (you're a failure now. You couldn't make it
unlike Mr. Rahul's son who is now a manager).

~~~
eshvk
I am kind of conflicted by this message.

So I sympathize with the situation you were in, I was on an H1B for three
months during which my company went through layoffs. It was kind of ridiculous
in that the layoffs were on a Monday and my Green Card interview as on the
following Friday. The amount of stress I went through was intense. Despite now
knowing that I would probably have gotten atleast 2 weeks of a paid holiday
which would have ensured that the green card would have gone through.

And I can see some unethical managers exploiting that situation. However, I
have worked around people of all different origins, immigrant, Indian born and
culturally Indian, I want to say that it really is a function of your
personality and the job situation you are in. My current company has quite a
few Indians (born and bred) who work normal 9-5 hours while being on an H1B.

Ironically enough I work more insane hours these days. Not cause I
particularly am in fear of my job. Because I have finally found that niche
that I am good at. And I am in a hurry to achieve some life goals.

I am of Indian origin, born and grew up in Africa. I have gone to India and
witnessed first hand all the bullshit rigmarole that goes around in enforcing
a cult-like structure. I also refused to accept that as my choice in life and
left. I do understand how that choice might be harder for someone whose ties
are much stronger.

I guess where I am conflicted is this implied message in your comment that it
is totally about the societal structure and the corporate enslavement. You
always have a choice. i.e. if your individuality matters to you.

~~~
curiousDog
> I am of Indian origin, born and grew up in Africa.

That makes two of us :-)!

------
hristov
I think a lot of these suicides are not actual suicides, but accidents
resulting from exhaustion. I used to have a job where I pulled all nighters
and worked 48 hours straight some times, and let me tell ya the exhaustion
sometimes makes you act like you are drunk. You do not have very good motor
control, all of your muscles hurt and you tend to forget obvious things.

I think it is quite possible that the subject of this article simply collapsed
and fell over a parapet rather than jump intentionally.

------
dwolfson
>> "But as long as young analysts are expected to work 80 to 100 hours a week,
invariably some run the risk of finding themselves in a situation they cannot
handle."

Doubly true for medical residents. And far, far more dangerous.

------
ForHackernews
I don't really have that much sympathy. All these Wall Street types knew what
they were signing up for: obscene hours and tons of pressure in return for
obscene compensation.

If we're going to worry about overworked, stressed out people, let's start by
caring about poor people stringing together three or four part-time jobs
trying to make ends meet with no benefits.

~~~
pizza
I can assure you Mr. Gupta would not have taken the job if he knew it would
lead to his suicide. Your comment is obscenely callous, and there is no need
for a false dichotomy of which problems we can concern ourselves with. No
suicide is unimportant. We can discuss more than one problem at a time.

~~~
ForHackernews
But this article isn't talking about providing better funding for mental
health services in the US, or lessing the stigma on seeking help for mental
health problems, or changing America's success-at-all-costs culture. Instead,
this article is narrowly focused on the question of improving working
conditions for some of the wealthiest, most privileged workers anywhere in
world.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I'm not sure its ok to abuse anyone, not even wealth-seekers. The stories are
horrific.

~~~
ForHackernews
They should quit, then. It sounds like this poor guy did quit, but then
inexplicably went back. At any rate, these are highly educated, competitive
people. They would easily be employable in any number of other industries,
anywhere in the world.

I'd give the same advice to software engineers. If you're being taken
advantage of, leave.

~~~
rrss1122
I think that he inexplicably went back shows how hard it is to quit. They are
facing immense pressure from family and management to not quit, and working
long hours like that drains them of the mental resources they need to resist.

------
CurtMonash
When I was a young stock analyst (a more senior role than described here, in a
different department) in the 1980s, I was regarded as weird because I pulled
the occasional all-nighter. But that was a different role in a different era.

The lives of investment banking analyst types indeed sound pretty awful. It's
one of those careers that nobody would possibly pursue except in the hope of
making money. I'd say that's a bad characteristic for a job to have, but of
course the large majority of the working population does just that, albeit for
less money and in most cases fewer hours as well.

------
hkmurakami
_> Mr. Gupta, who was universally liked by his colleagues and whom several
said was so good at his job that he had become one of the “go-to” analysts._

A friend who is an associate at a big law firm in SV has a similar problem
where she is so good at her job that the partners give her the toughest tasks
they have on their plates.

It's pretty crappy that your life suffers because you are excellent at your
work.

~~~
gadders
If you want something done, give it to a busy person. Or in a slightly longer
form, the classic "Letter to Garcia":

[http://www.birdsnest.com/garcia.htm](http://www.birdsnest.com/garcia.htm)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Unfortunately, today, he'd probably be laid off in favor of more predictable
employees. Perhaps Agile employees doing Pair Programming.

------
bgentry
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