
Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17 - greglindahl
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2014/0717/Web-evidence-points-to-pro-Russia-rebels-in-downing-of-MH17
======
austenallred
It's interesting how the right to be forgotten seems so desirable, yet when
something like this happens it's great that no one can cover up their tracks.
Now the pro-Russian separists are trying to delete all sorts of info.

We have this tweet about them getting a bunch of anti-aircraft missiles
([http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NF6E5FC...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NF6E5FCKFNEJ:https://twitter.com/dnrpress/status/483248037629018112)),
showing off their new toys
([https://twitter.com/grasswire/status/489823087190224897/phot...](https://twitter.com/grasswire/status/489823087190224897/photo/1))
and the most important one of the day of the rebel leader (or whoever manages
his Vkontakte account) bragging about downing planes before he knew that one
was civilian
([http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&q=cache%3...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fvk.com%2Fwall-57424472_7256)).

The [http://grasswire.com](http://grasswire.com) users keep finding more and
more of these - It seems desirable that we can delete stuff online and have it
go away, but sometimes the Streisand effect
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect))
is a great thing.

~~~
gwern
> It's interesting how the right to be forgotten seems so desirable, yet when
> something like this happens it's great that no one can cover up their
> tracks. Now the pro-Russian separists are trying to delete all sorts of
> info.

Are war crimes what 'right to be forgotten' is all about?

~~~
badkungfu
> Are war crimes what 'right to be forgotten' is all about?

Of course not. I think OP is just pointing out that there are pros and cons.

OTOH, if I were leading a technologically sophisticated country to war and had
the ability, I might look for ways to make my opponent look bad- say, by
posting to internet forums using their hacked accounts- and trust that the
internet would not forget.

~~~
happyscrappy
And how exactly would you get the video of the plane being shot down? The
stupidity of the rebels is explanation enough.

~~~
badkungfu
I'm certainly not saying this was a fake post. Though it's possible, I guess.
I'm just saying that the internet is a tool of war. And for those purposes,
it's helpful that information can become rapidly-propagated Truth.

------
edward
You can donate to the Internet Archive here:
[http://archive.org/donate/](http://archive.org/donate/)

~~~
HCIdivision17
It's always worth a reminder that the Archive is run on donations, and is a
rare, precious resource. Someday I hope it's use as an Internet log file of
public record continues to help.

Privacy is a big deal, but we also need to combat the memory hole effect.
Hopefully a good balance can be struck!

~~~
justincormack
Presumably google and bings records are already being examined by the FBI.

------
cobrausn
Worth noting: Two days ago, an actual AN-26 cargo plane was shot down [1]. At
the time, Ukraine assumed it had to be a Russian missile, because they did not
think the rebels had the ability to shoot anything above a ceiling of about
2.5 kilometers. This seems to be confirming that the rebels are the ones doing
the shooting. The intelligence agencies of the world are having a busy day,
I'm sure.

[1] [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/europe/ukrainian-
mil...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/europe/ukrainian-military-
plane-is-shot-down-as-russia-adds-to-presence-at-border.html)

~~~
adobriyan
This is just brilliant.

AN-26 shooting, allegedly by rebels, proofs that malaysian boeing was shot by
rebels.

By that logic UA did this because it shot down russian civil plane in 2001,
admitting it after months.

~~~
cobrausn
You have it backwards. All the piles of evidence that they shot down the MA
flight indicate they probably also had the capability two days ago to shoot
down the AN-26, and therefore probably did.

~~~
adobriyan
UA has the very same capability since USSR days and therefore probably did.

~~~
cobrausn
Let me spell it out for you then - Ukraine had no interest in shooting down
it's own cargo plane. Russia would not likely risk firing a missile from
within it's own territory. Who does that leave us? Maybe the people who claim
ownership of the space, have the means, and are tweeting about their supposed
AN-26 shootdowns? If this is trolling, it's bad trolling.

~~~
adobriyan
> Ukraine had no interest in shooting down it's own cargo plane.

Cargo -- no. MA plane -- very much.

Their so-called ATO (in reality, genocide) failed just recently. Some of their
troops were surrounded at UA-RU border by rebels, they are desorganised, some
are fleeing into Russia even.

At this point Kiev needs something.

~~~
dmishe
and shooting down civilian plane helps them how?

------
klearvue
I was following the news from the conflict in Ukraine and when the plane got
downed, pro-Russia rebels were celebrating all over the internet (thinking
that they'd downed a Ukrainian supply plane). When it became obvious the plane
was civilian, the celebratory posts and videos started to disappear with
blazing speeds.

~~~
jqm
"posts from pro-Russian rebels...on the internet..."

You maybe mean posts ostensibly from pro-Russian rebels appearing on the
internet?

------
gwern
Look at how many versions the WM has for that page - this seems to be a case
where the recently unveiled 'on demand' archiving may have _massively_ paid
off.

------
Torgo
Does VK not block spiders like Facebook does? This makes a compelling case
against Facebook's policies. If it had been posted only to a Facebook page, WM
couldn't have archived it. Somebody else could have, but chances are they
would be less impartial about the material they were scraping.

~~~
abuddy
It's a public page, not a profile. The posts are visible to everyone including
web crawlers. (I'm using VK)

------
dmix
There are claims that the BUK was geolocated via video footage before the
plane went down:

[https://twitter.com/djp3tros/status/489848712450277376](https://twitter.com/djp3tros/status/489848712450277376)

~~~
adobriyan
There are also claims that UA was really trying to shoot Russian Plane #1
which was flying close to malaysian boeing both in time and space

There are many claims.

~~~
danmaz74
Why on Earth would Ukraine try to shoot down Putin? To get absolutely sure
they'll be annihilated by Russia??

~~~
adobriyan
Since the beginning of the conflict UA did everything they can to provoke
Russia into crossing border.

Well, almost everything.

~~~
bronson
A curious statement. How were they doing that? By letting the rebels take over
their cities and airfields? By letting Russia have Crimea?

~~~
adobriyan
People burned alive in Odessa.

Many people (noncombatants) killed in Lugansk from BM-21 "Grad" bombings.

Artillery shooting near UA-RU border, killing two soldiers.

Shooting over cross-border stations while refugees were trying to escape into
Russia.

Many episodes.

Kiev declared that 'terrorists' (familiar word, isn't it?) are in Lugansk and
Donetsk and started shooting over whole population regardless.

~~~
glogla
> People burned alive in Odessa.

That was interesting incident.

There was a peaceful protest, that was attacked by (pro-)Russian militants
with guns. Then the crowd started to defend itself, the attackers retreated
and barricaded themselves in a wooden building. They were still shooting into
the crowd and throwing Molotov's cocktails. The crowd was was mostly unarmed
save for it's own Molotov's cocktails.

Barricading inside wooden building and throwing fire around is not especially
smart idea. That's how it ended, also.

------
hugh4life
I don't want to get into the politics, but I wonder about the algorithm the
Wayback Machine uses to decide what to cache and if intel agencies manipulate
it so the WM can be used for PR purposes.

"It is possible that the WM website could have been spoofed somehow to create
these records, but it would not be easily done. To do so would either require
hacking WM and creating the new records within its system, or spoofing the
records by tricking WM into thinking it was accessing Girkin's page when it
was actually accessing a third-party site. Both possibilities would be
difficult to carry out."

Would it really be that hard?

~~~
jqm
Their explanation seemed a bit too quick. And did I miss something or is there
a reason the actual account couldn't possibly have been hacked or spoofed
before being stored on wayback?

No, I don't think it would really be that hard for an actor the size of...
well, some of the parties involved in this debacle.

The rebels probably accidentally shot the plane down. Most likely explanation.
But, if someone tries to make hay with this event however, for example using
it in public speeches to justify further military aid, advisers or
intervention... I'm going to begin wondering about that.

------
VMG
Verifably timestamped information is becoming more and more important.

~~~
dredmorbius
Worth noting that one of TIA's revenue sources is providing notarized sampled
for court evidence.

[https://archive.org/legal/](https://archive.org/legal/)

------
trekky1700
There was also this news article from just before reports of the plane
crashing arose. I noticed it this morning right away because they were in the
same area at the same time on the same day.

[http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741164](http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741164)

------
funkyy
I wonder if we will witness first information and propaganda conflict between
two super powers taking part in internet.

This can be huge - apparently the ones responsible for the shooting will do
everything they can to cover it up. Will Putin cut his ties off and leave
Ukraine to itself or will he start his propaganda machine?

Its a huge loss - people that have nothing to do with this conflict died just
because they were in wrong place in wrong time...

------
eruditely
Let's not be blinded by bloodlust. Let me walk past all of the flamebait and
caution that amateur detectives should heed caution before they start pointing
fingers everywhere. This wouldn't be the first time that people were certain
of guilt only to be demonstrated otherwise later.

Let's not make people causalities until the dust settles at the very least.

------
st0p
As someone who is working for one of the travelling agencies who had people on
board (and I'm 99% sure one of my previous employers also had customers on
that aircraft), could we please wait with all the speculation? Querying the
database to see who might have been on board was no fun. I think that our
customer rep's had an even harder time to answer questions. The suffering of
relatives and friends must be much worse. I'm pretty sick of all the
speculation in Dutch media right now, let's wait for some kind of official
investigation and in the mean time light some candles for the deceased.

------
shmerl
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5E8kDo2n6g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5E8kDo2n6g)

------
bane
Why was the previous thread about this killed? I know it's off topic for HN,
but it _is_ pretty major fucking news.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8049325](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8049325)

 _edit_

honestly, if you're flagging this story, you may as well turn in your human
card

 _edit2_ so this has stirred up something since I'm watching my karma flutter
up and down like a butterfly's wings.

~~~
_delirium
Most off-topic major news ends up being flagged. There are two main pieces of
world news today: 1) Malaysian airlines plane downed in Ukraine; and 2) Israel
launches ground invasion of the Gaza strip. I would guess stories about either
one are likely to be flagged here.

~~~
bane
Yeah, but you've been on here long enough to know that _major_ off-topic news
won't get flagged/will be forced up on the front page for a while. HN
understands that sometimes our tech news bubble has to be popped with a little
dose of the real world every once in a while.

This isn't just a plane crash, this was an aircraft that was _shot down_ while
on a perfectly normal commercial flight between two major international hubs.
This could have very serious, long-term global ramifications and every person
who comes to HN should be aware it happened.

~~~
avz
From HN guidelines:

"Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports [...]. If they'd
cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic."

Source:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
bane
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8050351](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8050351)

~~~
avz
Fair point. However, for this specific event other news channels are good
enough. More importantly posting politically charged stuff on HN may over time
increase the incidence of this:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8042471](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8042471)
;-)

------
leccine
The also invented time machine:

[https://twitter.com/vesti_kpss/statuses/478926313831792640](https://twitter.com/vesti_kpss/statuses/478926313831792640)

