

Why are so many programmers arrogant? - adn37
http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/4693/why-are-so-many-programmers-arrogant

======
gaius
Young people with a natural affinity for an in-demand skill often are. A
hundred years ago you could have written this about pilots. 500 years about
painters (apprentices to the great masters in the Renaissance were notorious
for it).

As an aside, for every genuine Aspbergers case, there are 10 who simply think
they have a god-given right to act like dicks. It's like dyslexics, you can
always tell the real ones because they're quietly getting on with it, not
making a huge attention-getting fuss.

~~~
easyfrag
I agree with this, I've worked in health care and programmers have nothing on
physicians when it comes to arrogance. I don't know any programmers who would
coach a physician on the proper way to design a course of treatment...

~~~
Vivtek
I think the same rule holds with doctors as with programmers - there are
tremendously arrogant people who use their position as a surrogate for
competence, and there are people who really are competent and don't have much
time to deal with fools.

The only way to tell the difference is to watch their results for a while.

Jacquesm mentions the "save my life" thread. Yeah. Read that. I'm one of the
programmers would damn straight coach a physician on the proper way to design
a course of treatment - until I know which of the above groups the physician
in question falls into.

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jacquesm
They're not really arrogant, they just come off as such. Programmers usually
are pretty clever cookies and as a rule are more often right than wrong, even
if the subject is not programming, that alone is enough to mark them as
arrogant. We also tend to be an opinionated bunch.

Some of them compound the problem by no longer considering other people to be
occasionally right and them being wrong and do cross the line in to arrogance.

It's fine as long as people agree on things but as soon as one party starts to
ignore the other when they disagree then you have trouble.

For an encore, check 'mathematicians are arrogant', 'physicists are arrogant',
'surgeons are arrogant' and so on.

Anybody that has a job that requires a ton of study and a lot of brain work
will tend towards this, it's human, nothing specific about programmers.

That doesn't help you when you're faced with a nice sample of a prima-donna
arrogant programmer though, they do happen, just no more than in other
'brainy' professions.

~~~
marcusbooster
A programmer is not a mathematician, physicist, or surgeon - and yet a
programmer would put himself on that list.

~~~
gruseom
I had Thanksgiving dinner with a brain surgeon once. I said "Wow, your work
must be really challenging." He laughed and said, "Yeah, people think that."
He went on to tell me that although he was one of the rising stars in his
specialty, the truth was his work was mind-numbingly repetitive, he was bored
and wanted to find something else to do in life. The surgeries he did required
a great deal of precision but zero creativity. He was envious of people who
write software.

Your comment is indicative in one interesting way. The challenge of
programming is incongruent with its social status. This explains a lot of
dysfunction in the software world (e.g. programmers having to choose between
going into management or staying low-pay/low-status), but that's another
story.

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wisty
There's a lot of ways programmers can be arrogant:

* Black-and-white feedback. Software is very black and white. Your dietitian can tell you to "reduce your sugar intake" instead of telling you you're fat because you drink so much cola. There's no way to sugar coat "you pressed the _wrong_ button, and now you have to start over", unless you want to point out that the programmer who make the stupid program must have been an idiot. Either way, you look arrogant.

* We read a lot. Hackers usually know about the Milgram experiment, how Easter Island's economy collapsed when they cut down all the trees (peak wood), and why wikipedia may or may not be accurate. People who know it all come across as arrogant.

* We speak another language. No, not C. Programmers often speak a dialect that's a bit like English, but evolved into something a little different over IRC and BBs. That language isn't always rude, but it's different, and different can often come across as rude.

* We need to be intellectually assertive. We will find out why the core got dumped, and fix it. It's our brains against the compiler. If we don't win, our programs won't work.

* Arrogant programmers are still employable. There are plenty of arrogant HR officers, secretaries, school teachers, and shop assistants; but none of them act that way on the job. Sales guys are said to be unbelievably arrogant, but you can bet they will be very polite to potential customers.

* Heck, if we get too passive aggressive when we tell the PHB he's wrong, it can end in disaster. "Getting the team onto a version control system is universally agreed to be an essential best practice. It aids communication, reduces bugs, and keeps the source code safe" just isn't strong enough. He's already heard a similar pitch from a guy selling UML code generators, and look how _that_ turned out. A bit more drama might be needed: "We aren't using a VCS. ANYBODY knows that this is as stupid as [your analogy] to control STDs."

~~~
jacquesm
If there is one inanimate object that will teach you with great patience and
to devastating effect how often you are wrong it is the computer.

------
COP
As a programmer and someone who has started a small SaaS software business by
myself. I can related to this comment. Programmer are the doers. They often
pride themselves as the ones who are actually getting things done in an
technology company.

This mentality often comes off to "those who manages or lead" as arrogant, and
rightfully so. Often the doers don't see the bigger picture. For example, the
relationships that is required to have individuals in an organization work
together as a whole.

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chrisbennet
While I don't doubt that the stereotype exists for a reason (the arrogant,
maladjusted programmer) I can't really remember encountering any in all the
time I've been working with other programmers (25ys). Perhaps it's more
prevalent in non face to face situations like chat rooms or with the less
mature.

I've seen the brilliant ones get a little frustrated with "slow" people but
they weren't dickheads about it. In my personal experience, developers really
go out of their way to help an enthusiastic "newbie" get up to speed.

On the other hand, I have seen situations where a newbie would ask a forum for
an answer to his homework assignment and then get upset because he didn't get
an immediate answer or someone pointed him to a source for his answer ("here's
a link to sorting algorithms") instead of coding up the assignment for him.

~~~
rbanffy
> I can't really remember encountering any in all the time I've been working
> with other programmers

While I don't recall any such encounter with any programmer, I have observed
many icon-dragging, button-clicking arrogant pricks that called themselves
programmers because lave learned that clicking the third button from the
second group in the toolbar turns whatever they mashed together into an
executable file.

To the average user, such a beast is absolutely indistinguishable from a real
programmer and, so, the confusion is understandable.

;-)

------
joelmichael
I am a programmer and have had a history of arrogance, but I now associate it
with social immaturity. Humility is much more comfortable.

However, one shouldn't reject another just because they exhibit some pride.
That is also arrogant. Everyone has their character flaws, and variety is the
spice of life.

------
skowmunk
Hmm... would it make more sense if the question used "... perceived as
arrogant?" instead of just "arrogant?"?

(disclaimer: I am not a hard core programmer, if I were modest I would call
myself a beginner)

I have been long perceived as arrogant and an aloof person, while I think I am
not really one. Over time trying to analyze the root cause for this (it is a
big problem as it interjects into developing personal relationships)
perception and reading books and listening to audio books, I realized that
there are some other aspects of me that cause this perception. some of them
being:

1) Shyness (one of the reason - shy people avoid eye contact giving rise to
the perception to others that they don't care about others and by default tag
you as arrogant)

2) bad conversation skills - going into monologues ( when you are not into the
habit of back and forth conversation style and go into monologues (being
highly passionate about some topics doesn't' help either :)), the other party
can think that you don't care to listen to others and can tag you as arrogant)

3) giving unsolicited advice ( I have received a hell lot of great advice over
years from so many different people that is simply too valuable to put a price
on. sometimes, in a misplaced and idealistic view of returning the favor, I
used to go about giving unsolicited advice to friends and acquaintances,
sometimes putting the value of 'enlightenment of another perspective' in
others' problem solving over my relationship with them. I think it gave me lot
of tags of being "arrogant", " What does he think of himself?", "he has got a
chip on his shoulder" over the years and drained away many possible
friendships)

Good thing I have started working on these three and hopefully should be
better off in the future in the social aspects.

But coming back to the point, if the programmers that adn37 had in mind when
posing this question are the shy type with poor social skills, I think it is
highly possible that they may have come across as being more arrogant than
they really are. Just one possibility.

Other, than that, I think the incidence of arrogance among programmers is as
likely or not, as in any other professions.

------
meric
"The wild programmer (Scriptus exemplarus aspergerii) is generally a shy
creature when in its natural habitat. While some deviant boisterous specimens
do exist, they are the oddity rather than the rule.

He is content with spending his life staring at rectangular pieces of backlit
canvas, and occasionally bashing on rectangular pieces of polished material.
Come to think of it, most of his activities revolve around rectangles: the
rectangular nutrient clumps he tends to favor eating, the rectangular
primitive communication device he always carries around, the beige or black
boxes he is so attached to, even organizing his workspace into cubes."

I was just chewing my favorite _rectangle_ shaped cereal when I was reading
this.

~~~
J3L2404
Rounded Rects

~~~
rbanffy
That's web 2.0, right?

------
JanezStupar
I have been called arrogant after I politely pointed out that people are
driving 300mph towards a wall.

I have been called arrogant when after they crashed I politely pointed out
that I warned them in time that they will crash and burn.

I have been called arrogant when I refused to clean up the mess for a 100th
time - which could easily be prevented if people took a little bit of caution
and tried to understand their own predicament.

I have also been called arrogant when I insisted that something has to be done
YESTERDAY to systemically prevent results that have profound negative impacts.

Yup... I guess It has to be us.

~~~
_delirium
Man this is even an arrogant way of writing a comment! And with a hero complex
thrown in, too.

~~~
JanezStupar
:)

What I find interesting tho - is how before you commented I kept getting
upvoted. But then a steady stream of downwotes hit.

So to steer back from tangent - seems like perception of one's arrogance
depends more on popular opinion than one's own merit.

------
Mz
I'm not really qualified to comment on programmers per se. But I am reminded
of a personal anecdote:

In my mid-twenties, I had to have minor surgery on my face. My looks were very
important to me. I thought I was quite beautiful and this was upsetting to me.
I was concerned I would be disfigured but I really had to have the surgery.
Trying to make my peace with it, I commented "I guess I can always have
cosmetic surgery later." The surgeon was quite affronted and said "You won't
need cosmetic surgery when I am done." The scar is nearly invisible -- less
visible than the cyst that was removed. Even people who knew me before the
surgery and know I had my face cut on have difficulty finding the scar.

I concluded that if you can bring it, maybe you aren't actually arrogant.
Maybe you are just stating the facts, regardless of how it might sound to
other people.

~~~
j_baker
I agree with this. A lot of people probably consider me arrogant and stubborn.
Honestly, I don't care though. Arrogance and stubborn are only flaws when
you're _wrong_. On the other hand, being arrogant and stubborn about the truth
is a virtue in my opinion.

~~~
Mz
I think there is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. And if you know
for a fact that you are right, it can be difficult to back down, even in the
face of enormous social pressure. I'm not comfortable with saying that
arrogance and stubbornness about the truth is a virtue, but I would say that
someone who is sincerely devoted to pursuing the truth and sharing it is at
high risk of being viewed as arrogant and stubborn.

I used to frequently get accused of being an egomaniac. More recently, I am
fairly frequently accused of being a liar. I have concluded that, in my case,
accusations of ego indicate people think it can be done, just not necessarily
by me. But accusations that I am a liar mean they don't believe it can be done
at all, by anyone. Since I have, in fact, accomplished what I claim to have
done, I can't bring myself to claim otherwise merely to appease the critics. I
do still wrestle with the possibility of whether or not I should simply shut
up about it, but that brings up the dilemma that people who are sincerely
interested in the information would also be denied. So far, I have been unable
to reconcile myself to that route. I still have no good answers. But I wrestle
with such questions a lot.

~~~
j_baker
You're probably right, but saying that stubbornness can be good is my tactic
for dealing with people who think I'm stubborn. It moves the conversation from
what they think of me personally to whether I'm right or wrong.

In regards to what other people accuse you of, it's usually them projecting.
In other words, the person who accused you of being an egomaniac could be
avoiding fears that they themselves are being an egomaniac. Or the person who
calls you a liar may secretly be afraid that they're not trustworthy.

Regardless, I've found experience to be the best teacher. I've learned not to
be shy when it comes time to say "I told you so". It sucks, but you leave
people the option to continue to underestimate you if you don't.

~~~
Mz
I think people called me egomaniacal in part because I am a woman. I strongly
suspect I would be considered more humble if I were male. They call me a liar
because they find my claims threatening. If I am right, then their doctor is
wrong and that has ugly, uncomfortable implications when your life (or your
child's life) is on the line.

------
MartinCron
I've found that when I don't really care about what I'm working on, I can be
the most diplomatic and humble programmer around. Tabs vs. spaces? Whatever.
This language over that one? No strong opinion.

But in a scenario when what I'm working on is important to me, when I've
totally bought-in and care about what's going to happen, I have a much harder
time with being properly diplomatic.

Specifically, when I see someone driving us toward a brick wall, I get more
and more aggressive as that wall approaches and I'm ignored. When and if that
collision happens, I have a hard time not saying "I told you so", if only so
people will take me more seriously _next time_ we're headed for a crash.

I once ruined a professional relationship and lost a job because (I believe)
my manager couldn't stand the idea of hearing "I told you so" from me one more
time.

And yes, it turns out I was right about that last thing as well.

I try to trust my comrades, but I also have to trust my instincts, and when
they are at odds over high-stakes things the internal conflict becomes
unbearable. Anyone have experience or advice on dealing with this?

------
qjz
Why are so many teenagers arrogant? Perhaps it's the same with programmers and
is just a phase, as suggested by this fascinating essay:

<http://www.johnbyrd.org/html/bosslevel/ProgrammerModes.html>

------
bodhi
Is it really more severe in programming than the rest of society? Most of the
programmers I've met have been quite nice, the only people I can recall
meeting that I actually thought "I never want to meet them again!" have been a
pair of young lawyers.

------
maxawaytoolong
Most people cannot tell the difference between arrogance and confidence. If
you're confident you can't avoid people grumbling about how arrogant you are.
And if you are arrogant you can't avoid women sleeping with you because you
exude confidence. Although your pastor, guidance counselor and boy scout
manuals will suggest the opposite, I've found it's better to err on the side
of being slightly arrogant than humble. Just make sure you can back it up.

------
jrockway
Wow, a site more inane than Meta StackOverflow. I didn't think it was
possible...

~~~
mahmud
I think that thread now has an "Exhibit A" supporting evidence ;-)

------
robryan
Depending on your interests and how much time you spend reading, learning and
engaging you may end up being knowledgeable on a whole stack of subjects. When
you interact with others without this same intensity your bound to come off
arrogant.

For programmers many things are complementary, interests in Maths, Physics,
Finance can easily stem from loving the numerical and mathematical aspects of
programming. Effective programming also requires good communication skills and
tends to require more formal written language to precisely explain more
complex or abstract concepts that come with programming, this can lead to
other interests to.

------
sammyo
A bit similar to Medical experience, a deep familiarity with computer systems
that many fine opaque may come across quite arrogant. Picture someone
struggling with a setting and you fly by, "hot key to x menu, third tab, look
for option Q, set it to baz", just seems obvious (although it took an hour of
goolge-time to discover) but as you rush off the dazed user is still
struggling.

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kthxbye
Also from my experience there seems to a culture of negative motivation going
on around engineers/programmers. I've seen a lot of it in open source projects
and amongst engineers both professionally and in education. People berate and
punish in order to make people understand what is wanted/needed, instead of
engaging in teamwork and constructive feedback.

------
Kilimanjaro
Age and arrogance go in opposite directions.

We are young, smart and arrogant. We all are. We are smarter than everybody
else. The older we grow, the wiser; we use our intelligence to gain knowledge
and to balance our life and make the lives easier for those around us.

We become less arrogant and more humble as we grow older.

------
adn37
I've noticed it countless times, from underground scenes' irc chans and
meetups, to the office. Each case is different, that's the beauty of it.

At least, they will judge you on ideas, not on appearance. (edit: only if they
consider you worth their time, which isn't easily earned.) So are they really
to blame?

------
hbt
1\. If they make a mistake, don't correct them. Answer them shortly after
using the correct form.

2\. If you're right and they are wrong. Shut up and listen.

3\. If they make you feel uncomfortable, be bold.

4\. If they get emotional or unprofessional, steer the conversation into cold-
blooded, calculated facts.

5\. When dealing with regular Joe, don't waste time. Extract needed
information and get it over with.

6\. If it is a group conversation or meeting, only speak to make a point. Keep
it short.

Perhaps this only applies to programmers dealing with other programmers and on
occasion managers. One thing for sure, in my line of work, dealing with people
is about extracting/exchanging information. Having a personality, being
emotional is pointless. The goal is to get shit done. Leave your pride at the
door.

However, in my personal life, I try not to be like a human vending machine of
information.

------
defdac
Because context switching from an interesting problem with hundreds of
variables is incredible annoying..

------
gruseom
Overidentification with the cognitive apparatus combined with a propensity for
binary thinking.

------
clueless123
I am not arrogant. I just have very little patience for incompetent stupidity!

------
rick_2047
Any person who has rational thoughts in this diplomatic world would seem
arrogant to some scale.

Example,

Rational:"The education system in India is seriously broken beyond repair.
Anyone who succeeds, succeeds despite the system and not because of the
system."

Diplomatic:"The education system of India is not really on the right track,
but we have a real flow of potential. This is evident by the number of people
that succeed"

~~~
kabdib
So, how does the Diplomatic track then get to address the brokenness?

"But you said we were on the right track?"

~~~
rick_2047
The diplomats said we were on the right track, but it was just fancy words for
we are totally fucked

------
c00p3r
programmers? ^_^

