
Light pollution is key 'bringer of insect apocalypse' - YeGoblynQueenne
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/22/light-pollution-insect-apocalypse
======
js8
I don't buy it. Sure, I agree it can be a factor, but a key factor?

Why I am skeptical: There are many places where there is no light, especially
in the countryside or in the forest. Lights have been with us 60+ years, and
the insect apocalypse has only been observed in past 20. There is also
apocalypse of other species, such as earthworms, also caused by lights?

~~~
lucb1e
> There are many places where there is no light, especially in the countryside
> or in the forest.

The nearest place on land where darksitefinder[1] shows grey (not even black)
is across the continent from me, >1000 kilometers in any direction. There are
some blue (medium) spots in France and northern Germany (320km in opposing
directions) but that's it. I've visited the one in mid-France once and had the
fortune of having a clear sky. My lifetime falling star count went from zero
to "I lost count at some point" in about an hour and a half. The milky way
looks absolutely amazing from there. On the horizon, lights were still visible
from a nearby town though. I don't think I've ever seen real darkness outside.

Whenever I go on holiday, I'm actively looking for ways to get back to a blue
spot, let alone a grey one. Maybe I should rent a seaworthy boat at some point
and go overnight (not sure how much preparation that would take, I've only
heard of sea dangers from fiction, no clue if an inexperienced person can just
do that with a decent rental boat these days).

Anyway, the point of the reply: I'm not sure that the darkness required for
insect life is the same as "I can't see a bright, direct light source right
now".

[1]
[http://darksitefinder.com/maps/world.html#6/48.487/9.646](http://darksitefinder.com/maps/world.html#6/48.487/9.646)

~~~
K0SM0S
> Maybe I should rent a seaworthy boat at some point and go overnight (not
> sure how much preparation that would take, I've only heard of sea dangers
> from fiction, no clue if an inexperienced person can just do that with a
> decent rental boat these days).

From my experience living in the Caribbeans, you shouldn't do that alone or
inexperienced to begin with, I'd recommend hiring a skipper to take you and a
few friends for a couple days, and mention you want to ride by night to see
the stars. Prefer a moonless night, or close enough.

I truly realized what the galaxy was, sailing at night. It's a sight that you
never forget indeed. Whenever I think of times before the modern era, when
everyone could see that at night... so many stars, such wonder just above...
kinda makes you glimpse at a very different perspective. Maybe more 'magical',
less about us people and animals and more about the cosmos in its entirety...
I don't know. It's humbling and inspiring. These glorious first sights of our
galaxy stayed with me to this day, some 25 years later.

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briefcomment
Chronic semi-permanent light at night (street lights, signage, lights from
businesses like hotels, porch lights, and notably NOT car lights or other
transitory light) is generally unpleasant right? I feel like at best it's an
annoyance, and at worst, it's something messing with biologicial cycles.

Are there any interesting innovations out there addressing this? Like motion
strengthened* street lights? I would be tickled pink to have a Navi-esque
drone lighting up my way when I need it rather than having everything lit all
the time.

*edited from "activated"

~~~
clumsysmurf
A hotel nearby replaced all their exterior lighting (several hundred CFLs)
with omni-directional LED clusters ~ 6000K. They make the place look like a
prison courtyard, and they are painful to walk near after dark (too bright,
too harsh).

I would think, that as a species we'd all recognize the color temperature of a
nice campfire to be comforting and likeable, but I'm honestly surprised some
people like these 6000K+ LEDs.

~~~
kljhtopur
City streets look nicer under higher temperature light. This can be easily
experienced by walking from a sodium lamp street to a 4000K LED one to a 6000K
one, since even today very few cities are completely converted to LEDs.

There are reasons to use low temperature lamps, but aesthetics is not one of
them.

~~~
Zak
Low-pressure sodium lights are almost single-wavelength amber. They have a
negative color rendering index, while incandescents and sunlight are 100, and
most white LEDs are around 70. LEDs can be had in the high 90s at a cost to
efficiency.

LED and CFL screw-in bulbs for household lighting come in a variety of color
temperatures, but people usually go for 2700K-3000K. It does seem to me that
people prefer warmer light for many applications.

My preference for always-on outdoor lighting is none, followed by dim, warm,
and shrouded.

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ShorsHammer
Spent a bit of time in Fiji. A thing that struck me instantly was how well fed
the frogs were and how little effort they had to put in to get food. At dusk
they just go near little ground lights and eat every bug that would come near
them. It's a perverse ecological system.

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maelito
Paris' emblematic Place de la Nation was just rethought, with several car
lanes removed, larger green and pedestrian areas, and relevant to this
article, no lights.

As far as I know, it's now one of the darkest places of Paris, I hope it's on
purpose.

~~~
nine_k
Is it safe at night for humans?

~~~
serpix
Yes. Lack of light is perfectly safe for humans although we tend to get a
little depressed with pro longed periods of darkness.

~~~
alexis_fr
He may have meant, criminality wise. Public lightening is, and has been, a
major factor against criminality. Public sodium-based lightening is too week
anyway for depression.

One way to ensure security for pedestrians with lowest consumption, is the
“light carpet”. Only the feet are enlighted, with low spotlights. Consumes
little, lets you see where you walk, but in case of theft, doesn’t allow you
to see the criminal’s face. I don’t know whether this is what they chose for
Place de la Nation.

~~~
clmul
> Public lightening is, and has been, a major factor against criminality

That's highly debatable (sure, it may feel safer):
[https://www.darksky.org/light-pollution/lighting-crime-
and-s...](https://www.darksky.org/light-pollution/lighting-crime-and-safety/)

In any case, I don't there is much point in keeping the lights on throughout
the entire night, but it might be beneficial to (especially during winter
months at higher latitudes) light busy areas in cities for part of the
evening.

~~~
newnewpdro
There was an article I stumbled across a while back written by someone who was
fed up with the amount of crime that occurred just outside his window in an
urban neighborhood.

His window just happened to be at the darkest part on the street where shady
business could be done in the shadows. Drug deals, prostitution, etc. He'd
overhear all of it because of the lack of light on the street by his window.

I don't remember exactly what the solution was but it involved getting the
area lighted somehow.

Surely it didn't prevent the crimes from happening, just relocating it
elsewhere.

But that's the point. As long as the paths people stick to at night are well-
lit, they can avoid the dark shadows where crime is more likely occurring. If
you leave entire blocks darkened, you make those blocks less safe. Stumbling
upon a crime in-progress is a good way to get killed just for being a witness.

~~~
clmul
Would be interesting to read that article.

Crime is a problem indeed, but I still feel like adding more lighting in hopes
of solving this is not really the solution, and like you say, just moving the
problem around.

I think lighting very busy areas (think railway stations, main streets in
cities) is a good idea in general, but how many areas are really busy at
night? And most people aren't outside in the middle of the night or early
morning, so most lights could probably be shutdown after the evening is over?

~~~
newnewpdro
Wish I could find it, I tried briefly but failed miserably. Was kind of hoping
someone would recognize it from my comment and be able to provide a link as I
wouldn't mind re-reading it myself.

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ohiovr
That isn't the insect apocalyse. The insect apocalyse is in a decade or so
when insects overcome what it is we are producing to beat them down.

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tpmx
Context: Sweden.

I spend october-april in a city. I very rarely see any animals at all here,
including insects. (Sometimes we get confused rabbits here.)

I spend april-october in a house in the countryside. There's so little light-
pollution that I've considered buying one of those fancy motorized telescopes.

I get lots of insects there, including lots of beautiful butterflies.

~~~
gmiller123456
_I 've considered buying one of those fancy motorized telescopes._

To completely change the subject: With very dark skies, a non-motorize
dobsonian would be a better choice. For the price, you'll get a larger
aperture scope which will provide better views. And the dark skies make it
easy to star hop to find what you want to see.

From my house near Louisville, KY, it's too difficult to see a lot of stars,
making a "goto" scope much more useful. I simply can't find the stars to hop
to visually even though I have a really good idea where they are.

~~~
tpmx
Thanks for the insight!

------
jmartrican
Hmmmm I'm very skeptical. Insects evolve quickly. We been having artificial
light for like a long time. I can't imagine the insects would not have evolved
to it by now.

~~~
lixtra
Yes, evolution is happening:
[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/moths-in-
cities-d...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/moths-in-cities-don-t-
flock-to-bright-lights/)

------
pergadad
As a factor it seems believable, as THE factor it seems more likely that
there's a big funder looking for a strawman...

Which industry does have an immense and known responsibility for insect
deaths? Maybe the industry producing insecticides that are hugely profitable
but at risk of global bans?

I'd not at all be surprised if this is an elaborate way to sow legal doubt on
the anti-insecticide / organic agriculture efforts.

~~~
rob74
Nowhere in the article do they claim that it's THE factor, just a key factor
in combination with "habitat loss, chemical pollution, invasive species, and
climate change" (3rd paragraph).

~~~
galago
I think that's exactly how contemporary disinformation campaigns work. Say its
almost totally pesticides, the win for them is muddling it into 'numerous
causes.' There's so much money involved in some of these issues that
stakeholders can spend millions (billions if you own fossil fuel reserves)
just to move the needle slightly.

~~~
nodemaker
Yeah usually 80 percent of any problem is just one factor. In this case that's
clearly pesticides and the discussion of more potential causes is a benefit to
the producers.

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upofadown
>LED lights also offer hope as they can be easily tuned to avoid harmful
colours ...

Can they? Most white LEDs emit blue light into a phosphor. You are always
going to end up with a definite blue spike in the spectrum.

~~~
nullc
There exist white LEDs that instead use a deep violet emitter which they're
able to much more effectively filter out, eliminating the high frequency
spike.

Good luck finding them in products though.

