
Luxembourg to be first European country to legalise cannabis - lelf
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/07/luxembourg-to-be-first-european-country-to-legalise-cannabis
======
emptyfile
Bravo, and here's hoping that other countries follow.

I was recently shocked to discover that my backwards eastern european country
is one of the few in the EU that has even decriminalized drugs; I genuinely
thought that this was standard in the EU but apparently not, see this map
[https://i.imgur.com/A0JICkk.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/A0JICkk.jpg)

~~~
smcl
It's funny how these things turn our expectations upside-down. I'm from the UK
originally and they semi-recently (~10 years ago) _upgraded_ the severity with
which they treat cannabis so that it's now "Class B". This means that mere
possession can result in "Up to 5 years in prison, an unlimited fine or both"
(more @ [https://www.gov.uk/penalties-drug-possession-
dealing](https://www.gov.uk/penalties-drug-possession-dealing)).

So yeah, your country might not be so backwards after all, and in this respect
at least is pretty enlightened in the grand scheme of things :-)

~~~
jazzyjackson
At least USA has racism as an excuse for banning jazz cigarettes, but why does
UK want to put people in jail for smoking weed?

~~~
giobox
While it’s true it was upgraded to class B somewhat absurdly and has
theoretical significant penalties for use, the reality is police simply don’t
really pay attention to individual use and the law is not really enforced to
that extent against individual users. You’d have to be staggeringly unlucky to
see jail time for simply smoking a joint in the UK, something reflected in the
large drop in convictions etc even after the status change.

> [https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-going-soft-on-
> cann...](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-going-soft-on-cannabis-
> users-pzb3m5q7h)

------
dep_b
> Schneider said the legislation was likely to include a ban on non-residents
> buying cannabis in order to dissuade drug-tourism.

Given the fact they're sharing a border with France: probably a good idea.

~~~
reallydontask
A genuine question, Aren't all EU citizens supposed to be treated equally
across the EU?

How would such a ban work?

~~~
phaemon
They are being treated equally. A citizen of France who is resident in
Luxembourg would be able to purchase. A citizen of Luxembourg who is resident
in France, wouldn't.

You can have rules that apply only to residents, but they have to be applied
to _any_ resident.

~~~
hesk
It is my understanding that this ability to discriminate only applies to acts
by the state but not to commerce.

~~~
Engineering-MD
Perhaps this could be workable by issuing all residents a license to buy?
Restriction in buying items certainly exist: guns, alcohol, etc

------
maklu
Luxembourg should be implementing more laws that are 'firsts' or may be deemed
risky (looking also at renewable energy sources, electric vehicle
infrastructure, the future of cryptocurrency,...). As a small (and wealthy)
nation, they are a perfect testing ground for new laws & regulations.

------
patchtopic
What about Portugal, or is that decriminalisation?

~~~
Fnoord
Decriminalization. If you have too much on you, you still end up with a
record. Source: ex of my partner got busted with too much cannabis in Portugal
(whilst living there, and being a regular smoker).

In The Netherlands, its 5 gram per person max, and IIRC also 4 or 5 XTC pills
(I can't quite remember). Though that information is from '00s. It might've
changed, I don't know.

~~~
LeonM
Dutch person here.

For weed, the law states a maximum of 5 grams (or 5 plants, if you grow them).

For any 'hard' drugs, such as XTC the legal limit is 0. But if you get caught
carrying an amount that is small enough to be considered for personal use, the
police usually won't act on it.

If you carry larger quantities than what is considered personal use, it is
usually confiscated and you risk a fine (but only if the police has indication
that you are selling the drugs).

The weird thing is that the 5 gram rule also counts for the weed dispensary
(which are known as 'coffee shops' in NL). So even though it is legal for them
to sell the cannabis from their shop, they can't legally buy it from the
grower. They aren't even supposed to have more than 5 grams in stock. The
growers that supply the shops must also do this illegally, and they are
constantly playing cat-and-mouse with the police.

Clearly, the law is ambiguous and both police, growers and dispensary owners
are encouraging the government to fully legalize cannabis.

~~~
Fnoord
I worked in a coffeeshop. The maximum we were allowed to have was higher than
5 grams. I'm not sure how high it exactly was. The maximum we were allowed to
sell a person was 5 gram.

We had odd ways to go around the police. Once in a year they'd show up, in
numbers. Some kind of yearly ritual. Our main trick was to accidentally throw
down a trash bin in such a case so that the "refiller" (trusted middle man
with social skills who sat between the growers and me) would know that he
shouldn't show up. All the stash was stored just 2 floors above the shop in a
civilian apartment floor. He'd hear the noise through the heating pipe.

I'm glad I quit because, quite frankly, I didn't have the social skills for
this job (autism, lack of balls for the semi criminal cirtcuit, street slang,
etc). I felt my co-employees and boss were more focused on sales than on
proper guidance of tourists. I've refused to sell people (especially
spacecake) based on maturity/knowledge signals I picked up. Though that wasn't
the main reason why I quit I'm glad I don't have to feel guilty for that
anymore (because there's always a losing party to such decision).

------
d--b
The article says it's not technically legal in the Netherlands but tolerated.
But the technicality doesn't matter. As an experiment, cannabis legalization
happened in a much bigger European country than Luxembourg 20 years ago...

~~~
dajohnson89
Technicality very much matters. The legality is a reason for them to put you
in jail, if they wanted to do so.

~~~
Tharkun
Indeed. And while it may have been sort of decriminalized, it is very much
actively prohibited in many border towns to reduce drug tourism.

------
saiya-jin
Finally some sanity coming to good old Europe. Instead of making (rather big)
part of the population automatically criminals, state 1) gets revenue
(directly taxing plus new jobs); 2) can monitor usage, set maximum potency,
strains, etc (good enough for most users); 3) takes significant revenue from
proper criminals, local and worldwide; 4) makes various medical products more
available.

Everybody, apart from organized and local crime, wins.

~~~
adrianN
The alcohol industry might also lose.

~~~
bregma
In Canada the alcohol industry has bought into the cannabis industry big-time.

------
frshmtt
Finally some rational policy.. Hopefully only a matter of time until further
countries follow suit.

------
huntersitting
Man, I am so close!

------
umvi
I thought all drugs were legal in Amsterdam and Portugal?

~~~
paol
Consumption is legal, sale is not. That's what "decriminalization" usually
describes, as opposed to "legalization"

Edit: but sale of cannabis is legal in the NL, under some conditions.

~~~
mettamage
No it's not. It's illegal by law [1, 2] (Dutch sources). The supply chain is
definitely still illegal.

In short you have (making these terms up):

1\. Growers who produce and distribute the weed,

2\. Runners who pick it up and bring it to the coffeeshop,

3\. Coffeeshops

It's only legal for the coffeeshops to sell.

This sometimes devolves to a game like tag. The runners need to go as fast to
the coffeeshop as possible in the most stealthy way. If the police catch them,
then they are in trouble. However, if they bring it into the coffeeshop, they
are safe.

Disclaimer: I am very biased here, I think this whole system is idiotic. The
Netherlands should legalize weed. They have two economic incentives (1) weed
tax and (2) sustained tourism.

[1]
[https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/drugs/gedoogbeleid-...](https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/drugs/gedoogbeleid-
softdrugs-en-coffeeshops) \- official source

[2] [https://www.jellinek.nl/informatie-over-alcohol-
drugs/cannab...](https://www.jellinek.nl/informatie-over-alcohol-
drugs/cannabis/cannabis-basisinfo/cannabis-en-de-wet/) \- some talkshow source
but explains it quite well

~~~
pmoriarty
_" The runners need to go as fast to the coffeeshop as possible in the most
stealthy way. If the police catch them, then they are in trouble. However, if
they bring it into the coffeeshop, they are safe."_

Is that really true? If the police wanted to, all they'd have to do is search
any courier who comes in to the shop, or use video surveillance inside or
outside the shop. There are infinite ways to try to crack down on sale and
distribution, if they wanted to. But they don't seem to want to, and focus
their resources on fighting "hard drugs" rather than cannabis.

On the other hand, some years back there was news that the conservative
government was forcing the closure of a lot of coffeshops, and that there's
been a backlash from the locals against drug tourists from other countries
flooding their country, making a mess, getting in to fights, vomiting in their
flowerpots, and just generally being annoying. They of course bring in lots of
tourist revenue, but I guess the Dutch don't value that as much as they used
to.

~~~
mettamage
Well, I'm playing the game of telephone here (aka too far removed from it), so
take it with a grain of salt.

------
therealmarv
Living there cost so much... they maybe need that.

------
mcv
Wait, what about Portugal? Didn't they also legalise it?

~~~
alien1993
Portugal decriminalized it, you can't buy it legally anyway.

> If someone is found in the possession of less than a 10-day supply of
> anything from marijuana to heroin, he or she is sent to a three-person
> Commission for the Dissuasion of Drug Addiction, typically made up of a
> lawyer, a doctor and a social worker. The commission recommends treatment or
> a minor fine; otherwise, the person is sent off without any penalty. A vast
> majority of the time, there is no penalty.

Quote from: [https://www.mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-after-
portugal-...](https://www.mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-after-portugal-
decriminalized-all-drugs-here-s-what-s-happening)

~~~
mcv
That is indeed not quite the same thing. My impression of the Portugal
situation was different, but apparently incorrect.

------
rolltiide
Europe (as a patchwork of easily accessible jurisdictions) is almost perfect
for me, but the lack of recreational weed is such a stark in-congruency.

This Luxembourg plan is a good start but:

\- legalization in 5 years

\- non-residents cant buy

This is still so odd and ridiculous

Even Portugal doesnt regulate the cultivation and sale of weed. So there is no
lit market anywhere and the quality all sucks.

Its like come on Germany or someone central, legalize it.

You got girls running around regulated decadent brothels hiding weed and party
favors from the cops like its high school. Combinations that are like really?
Thats what we’re worried about here?

So like I said, almost perfect.

------
bregma
The dominoes fall, one by one.

The upside is that the wealth from legal cannabis sales will now flow through
to the rich white men where it belongs rather than to the minority folk who
dominate the black market.

~~~
adrianN
The poor minority folks leading organized crime.

~~~
bregma
I walk into a cannabis store near me and see young white people behind the
counter, and I know the license holder is a wealthy white person (because it's
public record). I know the company running the government website where I can
buy online is owned and run by a bunch of rich white men (because it's a
public company) and most its employees are well-educated, well-to-do white men
because I know many of them personally. I know the government that owns the
distribution and licensing channels and collects the excise taxes is mostly
rich white men because I voted. I know the corporations that produce wholesale
cannabis are owned and run by wealthy white men because I own stock and get
the annual reports.

I see dealers in the local park. They don't tend to be wealthy white men, and
they don't tend to be the people running the organized crime either. The
organized crime will just move into more profitable areas like phishing scams
and bond ratings agencies. It's the dealers on the street who suffer the most
from the legalization of the recreational cannabis trade.

I definitely see legalization as best for society as a whole. I'm just
uncomfortable with yet another way the cream floats to the top.

~~~
rjldev
> It's the dealers on the street who suffer the most from the legalization of
> the recreational cannabis trade.

Good.

Nothing is stopping non white people from opening legal dispensaries. Don’t be
so racist, maybe smoke some weed and chill out?

~~~
jazzyjackson
Well, the fact that they're in jail for being such innovative, ahead of the
curve entrepreneurs stops them from opening legal dispensaries.

~~~
bregma
Definitely that, and the ability to pull a $60,000 line of credit out of a hat
just to submit a license application. If most dealers could go to the bank and
get that kind of credit, they would probably have chosen a different line of
work.

