
Google resists pressure to pull LGBT “conversion therapy” app - davidbarker
https://www.axios.com/google-resists-pressure-to-pull-lgbt-conversion-therapy-app-aa98307f-f238-45e0-84ff-5829016379d0.html
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ben174
Living Hope's open letter to Tim Cook is worthy of reading:

[https://livehope.org/2019/01/31/open_letter_apple/](https://livehope.org/2019/01/31/open_letter_apple/)

They clearly state they are not a conversion therapy app, but rather a source
of content and support for people who feel that their ways are against their
own religion.

I do not support "converting" anyone in any way, but I am very against groups
trying to silence people because of their beliefs.

~~~
qntty
It's hard to take that too seriously if you know the reality of how
organizations like this operate. They know how to make themselves seems
innocuous but they are a part of a larger system of psychological abuse and
violence.

~~~
lenticular
Yeah, I've seen enough of these orgs. They paint themselves as _just wanting
to help_ LGBT folks, but it's really all a ruse. They are vile, and have a
hatred for anything different.

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djsumdog
There are no easy ways to get 3rd party apps onto a device. You can't import
your own repo easily like you can with apt/yum/etc. Google/Apple/Amazon stores
are bastardizations of the idea of a package repository.

Because of this, these companies have a monopoly on types of content. They
literally control big parts of the medium for the general public.

Honestly, I think it's unfair to pull these apps. You might disagree with the
ideas behind them, but individuals should have the choice and options if that
is the route and those are the choices they want to make with their own lives.
So long as they don't openly advocate violence, ideas should be free.

At what point do these type of restrictions affect peoples' freedom of
religion?

~~~
p1necone
Conversion Therapy seems a lot like violence to me...

Although I do agree with you on locked down app stores being a bad idea.

Edit: also conversion therapy isn't really what this thing was anyway it
seems.

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ngngngng
I think you misunderstand the now expanded definition of conversion therapy.
In this instance we're not talking about electric shock or anything like that.
Conversion therapy here just means "read these scriptures and testimonials and
then you'll be straight".

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tj-teej
Do any of those scriptures tell the person they will endure torture in hell
for the way they are? I think telling that to a kid is pretty damn close to
violence

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thrden
[deleted]

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jadell
When those words are directed at someone who hasn't had the time or experience
to develop psychological defenses against them, then yes. Of course verbal
abuse is violence when directed at a child.

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AnIdiotOnTheNet
It's hard to tell from the article, but this doesn't sound like conversion
therapy at all, it sounds like voluntarily downloading a set of articles and
testimonials.

Either I'm missing something or the reaction is overzealous.

~~~
ngngngng
I'm seeing that as well. For a while I was under the impression that
"conversion therapy" was meant to refer to outdated and disproved forms of
therapy like electric shocks that were now considered inhumane. But this app
just seems like some religious reading to convince you not to be gay.

~~~
pseudalopex
You might be thinking of _aversion_ therapy. Conversion therapy is also
considered outdated, unproven, and unethical.[1]

[1] [https://www.hrc.org/resources/policy-and-position-
statements...](https://www.hrc.org/resources/policy-and-position-statements-
on-conversion-therapy)

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keepper
I'm probably as leftist as you can be (and agnostic)... but this trend is a
bit ridiculous. Some in the left are becoming as intellectually dishonest as
some in the right/conservative side.

You may dislike religious doctrine, but this is the type of argument that
keeps "adult content" and similar "for the good of the children" apps away
from the apple store.

You can be both PRO LGBT rights, and also PRO people can hold differing
opinions. Policing morality is bad for both the religious AND the
marginalized.

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thtthings
Does being liberal mean you are tolerant only if it suits your point of view?

I am pretty openminded myself and don't care of someone's orientation but
everyone should have the right to do whatever the f they want as long as it's
not hurting anybody. Don't tell me it's hurting their feelings!

~~~
hello_friendos
Conversion therapy does hurt people.

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apo
> That said, Google could face a backlash from the other side of the
> ideological divide if it reverses course.

Google faces a backlash regardless.

However, the "deplatforming" trend of the last couple of years is deeply
worrying. Today Living Hope Ministries could be deplatformed from the Google
app store. Tomorrow it could be deplatformed from PayPal. Someday maybe banks
will deplatform them as well.

The problem is intertwined with the tendency for technology to produce
monopolies. When the one platform that matters (say, Amazon if you're an
author) decides to deplatform you, it's a blow you might not recover from.

There may be a ray of hope here, though. Left to its own devices,
deplatforming will tend to produce a monoculture repellant to large numbers
people (think about the narrow range of Disney movies). The deplatformed (and
their supporters) will seek out new platforms more tolerant of actual
diversity, rather than the pretend diversity gaining favor today. Some of them
will thrive and eventually challenge today's gatekeepers.

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itchyjunk
Isn't `conversion therapy` what the opponent is calling it? If the app doesn't
violate TOS, i'd rather it stay. People can choose not to download it (at
least as I see it). Another group might have as issue with, say, astrology. I
wouldn't think taking down astrology apps would be a solution either.

~~~
qntty
Seems somewhat more likely that this would do harm compared to astrology.
There's a very real possibility that someone who doesn't know any better might
take the concrete advice of the app. Most astrology apps aren't very specific
about what they recommend you doing, and don't tend to recommend things that
are clearly bad advice for everyone.

~~~
themacguffinman
But do we really want to expand the app banlist to include "contains harmful
advice"? That's a very broad, vague, and politically charged category.
Seriously, how far do people want Apple & Google to go in protecting their
mental bubble?

~~~
fzeroracer
If an app for kids said that you could reach a magical land of unicorns and
rainbows by drinking a cup of Bleach, do you believe Google should be obliged
to host that app?

If we can establish that yes, some advice is far too harmful to allow
propagate, then we can accept that we have to draw lines as to what
constitutes harmful advice. Which then brings us back to the core point: Would
conversion therapy constitute harmful advice?

Considering statistically it seems to increase the rate of suicide in people
exposed to it and does not actually succeed at what it's supposed to do, I
think it would be reasonable for a person to consider it harmful advice.

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duxup
So I downloaded the app to take a look around. It has a lot of text and audio
so there's no way for me to really review it comprehensively.

If there was something about gay conversion therapy in it I missed it. Maybe
someone can point out where I can find it but it just seemed to be pretty
standard audio sermons and text.

I think gay conversion therapy can be harmful, but I'm just not seeing it
here....

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deweller
I'm seeing an increasing trend of tech companies classifying content with
opposing beliefs as dangerous or harmful.

This is a very scary precedent we are setting here. We are taking away power
from the voting public and putting it in the hands of tech company executives.

Regardless of what side of these debates you fall on, please consider the
ramifications of what is happening here.

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goldcd
Good god, just wait until somebody discovers the number of 'horoscope' or
'biorhythms' apps that are available on both Google and Apple's stores.

More seriously, my inner adolescent doesn't want to lose the ability to give a
one-star rating, due to my increased love-of-cock after downloading the app.

~~~
thinkingemote
Thank you for a bit of sanity amongst the flames!

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duxup
It's pretty clear that if you provide a platform with any visible large scale
user input, you're going to need some full time policing staff and decision
makers who can take the time to look into things and make the call.

Sometimes you're going to be wrong, and sometimes right, and often reactionary
as you realize there is X, Y, and Z out there.

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Grue3
Do they still have that women-tracking app from Saudi Arabia? It's laughable
how these app stores try to represent themselves as the arbiters of morality
by banning anything involving porn, but literal human rights abuses are ok.

