
Kickstarter: They’re Like Wreck-It-Ralph in a China Shop - Mithaldu
http://www.goblinscomic.org/kickstarter-theyre-like-wreck-it-ralph-in-a-china-shop-and-each-piece-of-china-is-a-backer/
======
wiradikusuma
\- So A partnered with B and made a kickstarter campaign. From everybody's
point of view, A and B is one entity.

\- The campaign was successful (funded), but B ran away.

\- Kickstarter is aware of that, but told all backers to remain calm, saying
that the project will still continue.

\- A is upset, because not only he's screwed by B, now he needs to fulfil his
promise, but without seeing a penny.

I don't understand, can't A get his shit together with B, or whatever, and
still deliver, since well, you know, it's funded? From the perspective of
everyone else, A/B is one entity, no?

~~~
Red_Tarsius
On top of that, B was a dear friend of A. Lesson: never trust anyone in
business. _Only the paranoid survive_.

Judging from her previous posts, I guess B had some sort of mental breakdown.
Maybe too much stress, it often happens with hard deadlines. $182,000 don't
make for a life changing hustle.

~~~
ceejayoz
> $182,000 don't make for a life changing hustle.

That's half a millennium's income for the billion people on the planet who
live on a dollar a day. There are plenty of folks for whom a few thousand
dollars is life-changing.

~~~
emodendroket
Yes, if you were a Chinese peasant maybe making $8 an hour at McDonald's would
sound great too, but that's not really meaningful to most of the people
posting here.

~~~
aikah
In a country where people would kill you just for an iphone(and I'm not
talking about China here), $182,000 is a lot of money.

> but that's not really meaningful to most of the people posting here

not sure on what planet you are living on. Most people here don't make that
kind of money in a year.

~~~
emodendroket
I'd bet the vast majority of people here see $180k in four years or less.
Talking about it in terms of people living on less than a dollar a day isn't
really that meaningful for us.

------
yarper
Can't read because 25% of the text is in black over a black background

~~~
liquid_x
Turn of your adblocker

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njloof
I'd like to buy a context, please.

~~~
pja
This, I think: [http://www.goblinscomic.org/lowtide-update-for-goblins-
alter...](http://www.goblinscomic.org/lowtide-update-for-goblins-alternate-
realities/)

Short version: Creator partners with company to Kickstart a bunch of stuff.
Company owner appears to have done a runner with the Kickstarter cash, leaving
the creator to deal with the backlash from aggrieved fans when they don’t even
have access to the Kickstarter account in question. Kickstarter are not
helping the situation, but then they’re in an awkward position.

~~~
mercurial
> they’re in an awkward position.

Why claim the game is going to be made if it's clearly not the case? It sounds
like some of the awkwardness is self-inflicted...

~~~
tptacek
It seems pretty clear that the process that kicked off this mail to backers of
this project is independent of any other part of Kickstarter that knows any of
the details about how this particular project scammed its users.

It looks like this is a process that kicks off semi-autonomously as soon as an
IP dispute happens; there is probably a button someone pushes somewhere to
make it happen.

So the short answer is: that's canned text that does not perfectly apply to a
situation where there's an IP dispute over a project that is _also_ a scam.

~~~
MadcapJake
This. Either KS needs a few more canned email responses or maybe a team that
can actually write custom emails. I would think that with all the money, law,
and slobbering fans involved you'd might want to have at least someone who can
handle these kinds of situations with care...but I guess the lazy approach is
working for them...

Another thought: maybe KS really doesn't want to say that the project isn't
going to happen as that would hurt their brand. If a KS canned email admitted
some kind of failing, that could hurt their reputation in the eyes of backers
everywhere. So they just have to stick with the ignorant canned email and just
pass the blame on down to the project creators.

------
aikah
First rule of Kickstarter: when things go south, Kickstarter isn't responsible
for anything and you're on your own, backer or creator. I think they made it
pretty clear.

~~~
jonlucc
I agree, but that leads me as a backer to try to validate the ability of
creators to finish. The best way for me to evaluate that short of personally
knowing the creator is to see if they have previous campaigns that finished
well. This continues to turn Kickstarter into a pre-order store where all of
the risk lies on the purchaser.

~~~
Goronmon
_I agree, but that leads me as a backer to try to validate the ability of
creators to finish._

Hasn't this been pretty clear from day one? Kickstarter may not be perfect,
but I feel like the one thing they've been pretty consistent on is that they
don't have a lot of control over how the creators fulfill their obligations.

~~~
jonlucc
Yes, but it seems to me like the campaigns you can trust are from those
creators which have started using Kickstarter as a pre-sell store. That's
their choice as a platform, but I preferred the days of funding small
businesses that chose to earn capital from their users instead of a bank. I
think they've vastly changed the utility of Kickstarter to creators, resulting
in companies built only around sales on Kickstarter, rather than as a means to
start something outside.

------
kieranajp
Text-only version
[https://www.instapaper.com/text?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.goblinsco...](https://www.instapaper.com/text?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.goblinscomic.org%2Fkickstarter-
theyre-like-wreck-it-ralph-in-a-china-shop-and-each-piece-of-china-is-a-
backer%2F)

------
DannoHung
Uhh, isn't this when you file a lawsuit against your partner for failure to
fulfill terms of the contract you agreed upon?

~~~
saalweachter
Is absconding with company funds a civil or criminal ... crime? If I'm an
employee at a game company and take $182,000 out of the company till and walk
away, I'm pretty sure it's a criminal matter. If the owner of the game company
walks away with all the money, is that merely a civil case, failure to honor
contracts?

~~~
bjt
There's civil liability in either case.

Whether there's criminal liability would be a question of US state law (as
opposed to federal), so it could vary depending on the state. As one example,
New York law seems to say (based on quick Googling) that there would be
criminal liability if it could be shown that the defendant _intended_ to run
away with the money instead of using it to fulfill the contract.

[http://www.nycrimblog.com/nycrim/2009/11/when-does-a-
breach-...](http://www.nycrimblog.com/nycrim/2009/11/when-does-a-breach-of-
contract-result-in-criminal-liability.html)

~~~
dragonwriter
> Whether there's criminal liability would be a question of US state law (as
> opposed to federal), so it could vary depending on the state.

Federal law could apply, as well, depending on the circumstances or means. I'm
pretty sure I've seen cases where schemes where running away with the money
was intended in -- that is, before particular parties were convinced to spend
money that went to the company -- prosecuted under federal mail and/or wire
fraud statutes

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protomyth
Why is the link showing this on a Barracuda:

    
    
      The link you are accessing has been blocked by the
      Barracuda Web Filter because it contains content
      belonging to the category of: Violence & Terrorism 
    
      If you believe this is an error or need to access this
      link please contact your administrator.
    
    
      URL: http://www.goblinscomic.org

~~~
ColinDabritz
The comic itself does contain violence, so from that perspective I don't think
it's an unreasonable choice for a filter to label it 'Violence', and that's my
guess as to why it was filtered. Having the category of 'Violence' conflated
with 'Terrorism' is ridiculous.

------
Kiro
Who is the guy posting this and what's his involvement? Where can I get some
background?

Also, why did this just jump from like #2 to second page in just one page
reload? Did someone flag it or how does it work? I see it happening a lot on
HN; I remember some article on the front page and when I go back a couple of
minutes later to read it it's gone.

------
A_COMPUTER
Here's a little more info about the company, the goblins comic guy contracted
with. They also did another kickstarter for a card game for Kingdom of
Loathing online game at around the same time.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/kol/comments/2b9xs5/update_for_inte...](https://www.reddit.com/r/kol/comments/2b9xs5/update_for_international_backers_on_the_mr_card/)
which was late and underdelivered and apparently the company tanked.

Also, apparently the comic creator doesn't even have the list of kickstarter
backers, only the game company did. He can't even directly email people. I'm
not sure how he's verifying who kickstarted the game.

------
antoniuschan99
It seems as though this is the consequence of the new business models where
the business (in this case Kickstarter), don't actually own anything. And for
that reason, aren't legally obligated to actually do much.

This could be said for other sites like Uber, and AirBnb with similar business
models. The good thing, in AirBnb's case, is there is an insurance policy for
issues that happen.

Kickstarter definitely needs to do something (maybe a rating system) to stop
these cases from happening as often as they do. As for the backers, maybe just
spend less on the amount you're funding.

~~~
makeitsuckless
The thing is, it's simply a lie. The idea that the law doesn't cover these
"innovative" and "disruptive" business models is an illusion.

Uber, AirBnB, Kickstarter etcetera, they're not doing anything fundamentally
new, they've just added a new coat of paint to a very old business model. A
business model that is in most cases already clearly regulated (especially
outside the US), and, especially in the case of Uber, these companies are
deliberately flouting these laws and regulations.

There is however a major difference in how these companies handle the problem.
AirBnB constructively works with regulators to adapt both rules and its
business practices. Uber treats the law with less respect than the Russian mob
and thinks it can bully governments into surrendering consumer and labor
protections. Kickstarter is mostly known for sticking its head in the sand an
hoping things will blow over.

But in all cases, the law tends to cover exploiting, profiting from,
soliciting and provoking illegal activity as well as the scams themselves.
These companies do not operate in a legal vacuum, other than the Silicon Vally
echo chamber.

------
dragontamer
This sounds like an important issue. What is going on here?

------
bhouston
This is the perfect situation to sue. You will win.

Business is messy and sometimes when people act like dicks and take money but
don't deliver, you need to sue. If you don't sue, you will get taken advantage
of.

Asking for Kickstarter to fix a situation is fine, but really you need to sue
your former business partner and ask for them to cover court fees and even go
for damages to your reputation.

~~~
dragontamer
> This is the perfect situation to sue. You will win.

Sue for what? Kickstarter doesn't have any obligations, and there doesn't seem
to be any formal agreements between the author of this post and the
gamemaker... and finally the author of the post is Canadian while the game-
maker is American.

Feel like figuring out the details of international trademark / copyright law
to build up a case?

------
aikah
Here is the KS page :

[http://web.archive.org/web/20140913060147/https://www.kickst...](http://web.archive.org/web/20140913060147/https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/336486938/goblins-
alternate-realities)

Evertide Games is the creator of the project,not the OP's business.

------
GFK_of_xmaspast
Doesn't the goblins comic guy still owe content from the fundraiser that
bought him a house a few years ago, or has that been resolved?

------
markcmyers
I feel her pain, but in my book it's inappropriate for her to be painting
herself as a victim. A business in which she was a principal cheated 3,000
people out of $182,000. Now she's wailing about being inconvenienced. She
should sit down and write a personal apology to each of the backers who've
been more than inconvenienced.

~~~
axus
Tarol did post a public apology a while back, this situation has been going on
for a while. Today's rant is about Kickstarter not sending the apology or
information to the backer list before, but now is able to do so with false
information.

[http://www.goblinscomic.org/lowtide-update-for-goblins-
alter...](http://www.goblinscomic.org/lowtide-update-for-goblins-alternate-
realities/)

