
Gardens with a 12,000-person waiting list - gpresot
https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190828-the-gardens-with-a-12000-person-waiting-list
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4b11b4
I am an electrical engineer by "education" and "profession". I was never too
interested in gardening or plants until my roommate tore up the backyard
grass. I spend most of my time (like you) in front of a computer.

Now I can spend almost an entire day tying up tomatoes, planting seeds,
creating wells in the dirt so water doesn't run off, doing anything that will
help more vegetables grow. There is something extremely healing that comes
with tending to nature. I would bet every human has the innate ability to do
it.

We are mostly very disconnected from nature. Once you get back to it, you
realize how healing it is for your mind and body. Now, I literally NEED these
days in the backyard. After one of these days, I am more at peace.

I know not everyone has the space. You can also grow a lot of things in
containers. People throw away all sorts of pots every year that they get from
nurseries. I have picked up hundreds off the side of the road (in the US).

Also, as an engineer, you realize that your computer is not very amazing
compared to nature. You're in awe at the ability of plants to respond to
different situations and simply witnessing their growth provides the contrast
that you need to put your computer and the technologies around you into
perspective.

~~~
odonnellryan
We've mostly lost ourselves in productivity.

~~~
dymk
We’ve lost ourselves to pretending that yelling at strangers on the internet
is productive.

~~~
toomuchtodo
As well as aggressively attempting to convince people to buy things that won’t
make them happy.

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DragonCot
As somebody who has done his time on a waiting list for an allotment, and has
been allotmenteering for the past 7 years now, I find these small German
allotments vastly different to our UK ones. I fly reasonably often to Munich
and I've often seen them alongside the railway lines... and they are
immaculate. But the bit I find odd is that there is an awful lot of grass. We
in the UK tend to focus more on food or flower production, yet those German
ones seem more geared to relaxation more than anything. Ours are more of a
weekend digging variety, theirs seem to be more of an evening BBQing and a
beer kind. Maybe its a weather thing. Maybe its just a cultural thing.

And maybe we ought to encourage more people to stop playing video games and
get out and grow more stuff.

[https://martin-way-plot30.blogspot.com](https://martin-way-
plot30.blogspot.com)

~~~
umvi
> And maybe we ought to encourage more people to stop playing video games and
> get out and grow more stuff.

You can already do this _in_ video games though (Harvest Moon, Stardew Valley,
Farming Simulator, etc.)

~~~
Loughla
As a farmer in a previous life, I 10000% do not understand Farming Simulator
as a game for entertainment. Farming as a career is either mind-numbingly
boring, or overwhelmingly depressing. There is nothing else.

How does that possibly translate to a video game?

~~~
xen2xen1
Video games are predicated on quick achievement of short term goals, so it's
not actually realistic.. If you had to sit staring out a window at an empty
field for 16 hours a day no one would do it either.

~~~
Loughla
I don't even mean the watching the crops or livestock grow. I mean the actual
work part, too. Planting row crops is legit the most boring work I've ever
participated in. It is less than mindless.

And that seems like the most active part of that game. Maybe if the physics
were wonky that would be funny, at least. But this is one that I can't wrap my
mind around.

~~~
cloverich
Believe it or not repetitive tasks can be quite relaxing and even restorative
(in the meditative sense). A couple years ago I started practicing (disc golf)
putting in my back yard to get better at the game. Many don't because its
boring. And it was.. at first. Then it turned into something else. I started
to crave the repetitiveness. Training myself to be patient, to not feel down
if I missed a lot, etc. I started to get really good, and oddly that brought
me far less joy than the simple art of practicing. Turns out its an ancient,
well known phenomena. In your case, its associated with (presumably) a
negative experience so probably a bit different. I just bet most people that
play that game start to get that meditative experience without specifically
seeking it out, but return regularly (and benefit!) despite that.

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slics
Coming from a small third world country myself, I didn’t know what the market
was until I was 19 and came to the states. Everything we needed to survive we
grew it or raised it. It was a way of life, at 5 or 6 years old I was able to
watch over our farm animals and knew exactly what was expected of me. Now a 6
years old can’t even put their own shoes on by themselves let alone know how
to do anything related to self manage.

I don’t blame as much the kids, the way of life in an industrial country is
all about wasting time and not helping kids learn and enjoy life. We as
parents have failed to transfer our experiences because we are to damn busy
trying to keep up with everything it’s going on around us, and in many cases a
mobile device is enough to shut a kid up. Yes, we live in a sad world that we
don’t know anymore what will happen if one day markets are no longer an
option.

~~~
paxys
Are you saying it's a bad thing that our 6 year olds don't have to herd sheep
to be able to survive?

~~~
toomuchtodo
It’s a bad thing to not teach kids life skills besides navigating mobile and
social apps.

My kids aren’t raised on a farm, but we take frequent trips to local farms so
they can see how they operate, touch and interact with animals (help milk a
cow and feed livestock, for example).

As soon as they’re a bit older, they’ll learn to weld, tend a garden, change a
flat tire, perform CPR, body weight exercises, as well as survival skills.
Fortune favors the prepared. And I’ll admit, I’m going to be filled with pride
the first time my daughter successfully strikes an arc stick welding and fixes
something on the spot.

~~~
yongjik
> As soon as they’re a bit older, they’ll learn to weld, tend a garden, ...

...until one day they'll learn to say "No Mom/Dad, I'm not interested." I'm
not being cynical: children have their own minds and it's a really important
growing step to find their own interest at some age.

Well, if your kids are like you, they may have a slightly better chance of
liking changing a flat tire than my kids, but don't expect it as a given, and
don't be alarmed if they decide shooting a minecraft Youtube video is a better
use of their time.

~~~
behringer
How would they know they like it if they don't know how to do it? How does a
singer making millions at 18 become a singer if she hasn't been singing since
she was 3? How does an artist become world-class if he hasn't been drawing
since he could hold a pencil? How does a veterinarian become the best in his
field if he's never cared for an animal until he was 18?

I once took a computer build/repair class in college. I learned a couple neat
things but it was overall a waste of time. Not a week after that class was
over did my friend who took the same class ask me to build his computer. If
you don't live it, you probably won't be it. If you've never done anything,
you probably won't be able to do anything.

------
sandworm101
I used to think of gardening and allotments as a rather innocuous activity,
something rather green that was good for all involved. But in the last year
I've come to realize that it isn't environmentally sound.

(1) Plastics and pesticides. They are over-used by gardeners as opposed to
commercial farmers. Even without chemicals, the plastics pots, bags and other
devices all end up in landfills. Those innocuous black pots cannot be properly
recycled due to their colour and gardeners seem unwilling to shift to more
sustainable options, even more sustainable _colours_ of pots that could be
more easily recycled.

(2) Peat. Until yesterday I was unaware of the carnage being done to peat
bogs. The BBC's Tonight program just showed me footage of the open-pit peat
mines that are literally strip-mining peat bogs to feed Britain's gardening
hobby. The environmental and climate damage done by destroying peat bogs,
giant CO2 sinks, is immense.

Footage of an Estonian peat mine:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXr0z3h1Cig](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXr0z3h1Cig)

(3) Water. Home gardens and allotments get their water from municipal sources.
Municipal water is far more expensive than the water used on farms, and
municipal sources lack the capacity to provide the acer-feet necessary to grow
substantial amounts of food. That means allotments, urban farming, is an
unsustainable food source. The carrot bought at costco was grown using
river/lake water. The carrot grown behind someone's house used municipal
water, and probably far more of it. The costco carrot is the more sustainable
option.

So I've changed my mind about gardening. It is not an environmental net
positive. It might be great for the health of the people doing it, but it
isn't helping the climate. It isn't as bad as drag racing but is far worse
than hiking. It is an environmentally costly hobby that should be approached
with caution.

~~~
chucksmash
In 2019, just beneath the surface of every last "rather innocuous activity"
lies a whole raft of things to feel bad about and someone to let you know
about it.

It's gardening. It's fine. If gardening (gardening!) is now something that
should be "approached with caution" then we've jumped the shark as a
civilization.

~~~
nkrisc
While I generally agree with you, there something to be said for everyone more
deeply understanding the impact of all the modern conveniences we enjoy.
Everything has a cost, most people don't see those costs.

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Ididntdothis
These used to be the ultimate symbol of “Spießertum”. Funny how things change
and trends come and go.

~~~
benj111
"Spießertum"

I'm getting the translation of philistine, which seems a bit harsh?

Anything that better captures the flavour, for an Anglophone?

~~~
Ididntdothis
When I posted I thought about a translation but drew a blank. It’s somewhere
between conservative, law abiding, rules oriented but also community oriented.
But everybody has their own connotations so there is no real definition.
Generally it’s used a derogatory term. Nobody calls themself a Spießbürger.

~~~
ikeyany
In the US, those people are called tools.

~~~
Ididntdothis
A "tool" is something else. there is no equivalent in the US.

It's really really hard to translate stereotypes from one country to another.
There are a lot of US stereotypes that you can't translate to Germany either.

------
jbeales
Does anyone know where I can get an English copy of Berlin's
Bundeskleingartengesetz?

I manage a community garden in Montreal and love the idea of BBQ and beers in
the evening, but the city, (who owns the land), is not ok with drinking at the
garden, (or cooking, in general).

~~~
yorwba
I think it's unlikely you'll be able to find a ready-made translation for
free, since it's very niche. Gesetze-im-Internet has translations of the more
important laws, but for the Bundeskleingartengesetz there's only the German
version: [https://www.gesetze-im-
internet.de/bkleingg/BJNR002100983.ht...](https://www.gesetze-im-
internet.de/bkleingg/BJNR002100983.html)

If you want a translation (to convince Montreal to adopt similar laws?) you'll
need to find someone to translate it for you.

~~~
jbeales
Thanks for the link. I may be able to convince someone to translate if Google
isn't good enough.

If that page is the whole set of laws then it's really not so many rules as
the article makes out - our rules in Montreal are probably just as long. I'm
going to see if I can cherry-pick the best parts for my little corner of
Montreal.

~~~
yorwba
Well, that's the federal law. There are also additional regulations by the
city of Berlin
[https://www.berlin.de/senuvk/umwelt/stadtgruen/kleingaerten/...](https://www.berlin.de/senuvk/umwelt/stadtgruen/kleingaerten/de/gesetze/index.shtml)
and each local association has their own bylaws, e.g. for the borough of
Charlottenburg: [http://charlottenburger-
kleingartenverband.de/pdf/Satzung%20...](http://charlottenburger-
kleingartenverband.de/pdf/Satzung%20vom%2026.05.2018.pdf)

~~~
jbeales
Excellent, thanks!

I Google Translated the federal law, and it seems to be mostly about how
leases are dealt with. I also did some Googling and found what I think is the
garden in the article, although there seems to be a few gardens in Wedding.
They're big compared to what we have here in Montreal.

------
choeger
It should be noted that these gardens are comparatively cheap. For many there
is no other feasible way to own a few 100m² of green and free sky.

~~~
himlion
Wow, are those gardens really that big? Here in the Netherlands there are huge
waiting lists for your allotted 12m².

~~~
ahoef
Well, I know people who've had 100m² around Nijmegen, so it exists.

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whatshisface
It looks like HN will have to loosen at least one part of its anti-suburban
stance: people who live in the suburbs get back and front yards as part of the
deal.

~~~
benj111
Isnt this article the 'loosening'? Not everyone wants gardens, if you decouple
the garden from the house, people can get the size of each that they want.

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colechristensen
People need more space in cities.

People are willing to live with far too little space compared to what a person
actually needs to live well. I think it is a zoning issue where local
governments need to force more working green space and workspace in general.

Living in small apartments without space to garden or build or maintain things
makes people somewhat miserable consumer drones.

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troymc
When I moved to Berlin four years ago, I saw these big clusters of tiny lots
with small houses surrounded by gardens and wondered what I was looking at.
They are often visible from the train (U-Bahn and S-Bahn).

I asked some coworkers and got mixed responses. Some said it was a bit like
Berlin's version of a backyard (because in the city core, most people live in
flats with no backyard). Some said it was a place to go for the weekend,
something like a lake cabin or cottage in North America.

There's almost no information about them online, that I could find. If you're
curious to explore some in Google Maps, here are some quick links:

[https://goo.gl/maps/qfbQawA27KSox5BZ9](https://goo.gl/maps/qfbQawA27KSox5BZ9)

[https://goo.gl/maps/r4Mf1w9V6ehpS7D3A](https://goo.gl/maps/r4Mf1w9V6ehpS7D3A)

~~~
atombender
The term for this in English is allotment [1]. Quite common in Europe, rare in
the U.S.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotment_(gardening)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotment_\(gardening\))

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bananatron
Interest in small, distributed, local food production systems is really
trending right now. Topsoil degradation, the future of the climate, and the
malnutrition of our food are key factors - it seems like this is an important
piece of the puzzle for keeping populations healthy and fed.

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m-i-l
There was a 40 year waiting list for allotments in some parts of London 10
years ago[0], and 6 years ago the number of allotments had remained the same
but the waiting list more than doubled from 800 to 1,765[1] so it could be
longer than 40 years now.

[0] [https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/jun/02/allotments-
sho...](https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/jun/02/allotments-shortage-
waiting-lists)

[1]
[https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/allotments_and_waitin...](https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/allotments_and_waiting_lists_44)

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jhallenworld
My town's public victory gardens also have a waiting list, but not sure how
long. The popularity has definitely increased recently and they are sure
peaceful to walk through.

[https://www.belmont-ma.gov/conservation-
commission/pages/vic...](https://www.belmont-ma.gov/conservation-
commission/pages/victory-gardens-at-rock-meadow)

The rules are interesting to read: [https://www.belmont-
ma.gov/sites/belmontma/files/uploads/han...](https://www.belmont-
ma.gov/sites/belmontma/files/uploads/handbook_bvg_2019.pdf)

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kazinator
> _Gardens with a 12,000-person waiting list_

Obviously consequence of density. Densified people desperately want something
backyard-like, even if it's kilometers from their residence.

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oever
I volunteer at a Victorian kitchen garden three hours a week. The advantage of
working in a shared garden is that the social aspect is larger and I'm not
solely responsible for the end result. Such an opportunity is rarer than
having schräbergarten and I feel lucky. It's a great way to unwind after a
week behind the computer.

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malthaus
As someone with a Schrebergarten in Switzerland, let me tell you... its great
for mental balance but its a crazy amount of work to keep it even somewhat
tidy.

But over here its also shifting from old retirees to young people, at the
moment its qquite a good mix.

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halfarmbandit
For a brief moment I expected this to be about WOW’s relaunch where every
server was full.

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soupdiver
I can confirm this as I'm living in Berlin :D

