
Finland tax authorities matching Bitcoin transactions and bank transfers - velmu
https://metropolitan.fi/entry/tax-authorities-in-finland-matching-bitcoin-transactions-bank-transfers-to-collect-tax-on-crypto-trading-profits
======
hedgew
All they're doing is looking for bank transactions to crypto exchanges in
citizens' accounts. What this article doesn't tell, is that the current
cryptocurrency taxation in Finland is unreasonable. You pay 30-34% tax on any
profit, but you can not deduct losses.

If you had bought 1 BTC at $1000, another at $14000, and sold both at $3000
you would owe $600 in taxes even though you lost $9000.

You can imagine how people feel about paying these taxes, when they are so
obviously flawed and unjust. Some people may owe hundreds of thousands in
taxes even if they made no actual profit.

~~~
onion2k
_You pay 30-34% tax on any profit, but you can not deduct losses._

Whether you made a profit or not doesn't have to be a consideration as far as
tax goes. You pay a percentage of the capital amount when you choose to
liquidate your asset. It's effectively a wealth tax. There are lots of taxes
around the world that work this way. It _sucks_ if you've made a loss, but
that's not really the government's problem.

~~~
hedgew
That doesn't sound right. The authorities in Finland specifically tax gains
made with cryptocurrencies. You only pay tax if you make profit on any
individual trade. But you can not deduct trades that made a loss.

It's not exactly a wealth tax, but it's also hard to consider a capital gains
tax because you can't deduct losses. Treating other investment products this
way would probably have horrific results, because it heavily disincentivizes
taking on any risk.

~~~
mvindahl
If you buy stocks in a publicly traded Finnish company, then you're taking on
a risk in the hope of making a profit. But you are also putting your money at
work in the Finnish economy, stimulating job creation and growth. Everybody
wins, hopefully.

If, on the other hand, you put down your money in bitcoin or at the online
blackjack tables then you're gambling, not investing. Win or lose, your gamble
creates zero domestic growth. Why should any government incentivize that?

~~~
21
What if you were to invest in a publicly traded non-Finnish company, let's say
Apple? How do you think the government should treat that?

~~~
charlesdm
Apple might be a bad example, but I can't imagine them treating investing in,
say, a German company different than a Finnish one. That would be
discriminatory and would not be allowed under EU law.

------
tallanvor
It sort of sounds like they're treating Bitcoin transactions like a non-EEA
lottery. If you win, you pay your taxes, and if you lose you don't get to
deduct the cost of your ticket.

Honestly, this doesn't bother me.

~~~
jabgrabdthrow
Do you also get taxed if paid in bitcoin

Why not just do a 10% wealth tax on all of a person's assets on top of their
income tax

~~~
tallanvor
I'm not in Finland or an expert on their taxation rules - my statement was
based on a quick read of some of the information I found, but I would assume
that if you chose to get paid in bitcoin than yes, you would have to determine
the value of the bitcoin when you received it and pay taxes on it. When you
cashed it out you would either have to pay taxes on the gains or eat the
losses.

------
RantyDave
I believe this is called "competent". I know we don't see much of it but ...
there it is.

------
ForHackernews
Having an immutable public ledger should make collecting taxes easier.

~~~
wereHamster
…if you can match addresses to people.

~~~
grey-area
Pretty trivial for a nation state, given sufficient motivation.

~~~
StavrosK
Not if it's something like Monero.

~~~
acdha
They can still require mandatory reporting when real money enters and leaves
the system. Everyone is going to need to convert currency into Monero or vice
versa and governments routinely require disclosure information at such points.

~~~
StavrosK
Yes, for sure. But there can be a secondary market if people accept Monero
directly, so you don't have to convert.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
It always surprises me how casually crypto currency enthusiasts treat wilful
money laundering and tax fraud.

~~~
cfadvan
They’re almost as bad as the “sovereign citizen” crowd, more numerous, and
just as sanctimonious. Maybe Blockchain has a future, but this current crop of
money launderers and thieves don’t. Between the SEC in the US and tax
authorities elsewhere, it’s a just a matter of time before having an immutable
ledger of these activists is shown to be a really bad idea.

------
kazinator
> _The old truth seems to stand: You can 't avoid death or taxes._

Even if there were nothing but cryptocurrency, tax authorities have ways of
estimating someone's income from investigating their lifestyle. That is to
say, find people who are leading lavish lifestyles (living in upscale
neighborhood, driving expensive cars, taking expensive vacations, ...), yet
claim low income. That's just very inefficient to do if you have to actually
put gumshoes onto individual people because you have no electronic access to
any transactions.

------
klez
"The taxman"? The original title was "Tax authorities in Finland matching
Bitcoin transactions & bank transfers to collect tax on crypto trading
profits".

~~~
StavrosK
Yes, but "the taxman" makes you click so you can see if it's _your_ taxman.

~~~
s73v3r_
Or if you're a Beatles fan.

