

Stop Speaking in Bullshit - danilocampos
http://blog.danilocampos.com/2010/10/13/stop-speaking-in-bullshit/

======
InfinityX0
The strange thing about this article is I read the first patch of job
descriptions and I thought you were poised to make fun of _them_ \- not the
latter one.

Those first descriptions make me wonder if it's really OK to run the same
startup template again and again, even if you say that it makes you "human". I
expect to read that first job description amongst a million three-person
startups - besides maybe the profitable part. Is that really who you are? The
cool start-up?

The inability to show discernible qualities in this kind of company kinda
worries me as it comes to differentiating yourself in product - are you also
the same company that's the next Google that can do better SEO and just loves
that Lean Startup philosophy? I mean, they're all real and we want to do them,
but what does that _mean_? At least those automated, robotic startups aren't
pretending to be something else. They're automated machines. But if your
straightforward nap-centric job description is trying to adhere to a
_standard_ professed in this forum, I wonder about your true ability to imbue
the unique competitive advantages that will ultimately make you successful.

~~~
cperciva
_The strange thing about this article is I read the first patch of job
descriptions and I thought you were poised to make fun of them_

Me too. This bit could describe the local transit system: " _We’re profitable,
make the lives of hundreds of thousands of people better every month, have a
rapidly expanding user base, and napping is an encouraged part of our
corporate culture._ "

Maybe I'm unusual, but my idea of a perfect job posting is one _which says
something about the job_. Don't write platitudes about how you're looking for
people who think outside the box; say "we think the most exciting thing in the
world is designing algorithms to target advertising better, and that's what
you'll be doing if you get this job".

~~~
hasenj
I actually find it boring to apply for a job to "design algorithms to target
advertising".

Think about it: do you want to do that for the next 10 years of your life? Do
you want the next 10 years of your life to revolve around such a thing? Even
if you don't mind it: is that what entices you to apply for the job?

I don't care what the work itself is. I care about the environment and the
culture.

I'd rather design a spread-sheets application in a hacker-centric culture,
than design hard-core search algorithms in a typical management-and-sales-
centric culture.

~~~
pmjordan
Seriously? Rather you than me. They're hardly going to advertise having a
crappy company culture. ("You'll be reporting directly to two different
managers with opposing objectives, but don't worry, we provide a generous
mental health package!") That's for you to work out by reading up on the
company and when you go to the interview. Plus, you're claiming a false
dichotomy. I doubt great culture and great tech challenges are negatively
correlated.

Besides, the "next 10 years of your life" argument is a strawman. If you don't
want to be working on the same, hard micro-problem forever, pick a smaller
company, where your work will vary wildly. Sure, not all of it is going to be
solving super hardcore problems, but I'd want evidence in the job description
that there are interesting challenges ahead.

~~~
hasenj
They don't have to advertise a crappy culture, it will just manifest itself as
bullshitting.

> pick a smaller company, where your work will vary wildly

Exactly!

------
ErrantX
Hmm, well.

I would consider the first job posting another version of a) a bad job posting
and b) the modern form of "bullshit"

I agree with the rest of what he is saying, but I think the first example was
poor and derailed the point.

How would I have done the advert? Try:

 _We're an unannounced YC company, but you may have heard of us (millions
have). We're profitable, and we're looking to hire a smart all-around
programmer as our first hire. Depending on the task, we program in Ruby (on
Rails), Javascript (a lot of this), PHP, Python, Objective-C (iPhone), and
Java (Android). Flexibility is a plus._

 _We like pragmatic people who get things done. We're looking for someone
relaxed and with the ability to think about the product as a whole and their
impact on it._

 _You don't have to be world class at everything, but you should be willing to
get your hands dirty with everything from database design to javascript to
system administration to customer support and customer development._

 _We're profitable, have hundreds of thousands of users and a rapidly
expanding user base. We are a relaxed company run by programmers, so no
corporate nonsense._

 _You will be the first employee of a small successful startup; with a
paycheck and equity. It you are interested and live in Silicon Valley, send
email about yourself to recycledthrowaway@gmail.com._

There, bullshit removed. Clean, simple, descriptive.

The problem with the original is that the company is not announced, so any
"exciting" description is just bullshit and unhelpful. The job ad in this case
is there to say what they want and what roughly they are offering, it is to
filter out some basic candidates. And at that point you can turn on the charm
_when it makes more sense to the potential employee_

Never try to sound cool in a job ad.. it backfires. Go for friendly but
offhand professionalism :)

~~~
jdp23
Breaking: different people see different things as bullshit. Film at 11!

I also was completely turned off by the first job offering. I don't want to
work for a company that isn't bothered by starting off with a cliche. But then
again, maybe neither of us are the kind of person they're trying to hire.

In the rewrite, it's a great opening line if you're shooting for somebody in
the YC universe. If not, starting with an acronym that people don't know is a
turn off. At least to me, it gives the impression of wanting a utility player
(rather than somebody with deep skills at anything in particular) who wants to
work in a relaxed programmer-friendly environment (as opposed to somebody
who's passionate about whatever it is they'll be working on or is looking to
join a business-focused company). If that's what they're looking for, great.
Especially in this day and age I probably would move the bit about being
profitable to the very front because it establishes legitimacy.

One of the things we did at Qworky was to ask the kind of people we wanted to
hire to review our job description. So when we were looking for a system
adminstrator candidate we asked several good sysadmins "is this the kind of
job you'd apply for? how can we make it a clearer and more appealing job
description?" lo and behold our JD got much better in a hurry and we wound up
with great candidates.

~~~
MrIncognito
I figured most people who read HN know what YC is (the post was on HN).

This comment thread has been pretty helpful in figuring out future revisions.
Thanks for the tip.

~~~
ErrantX
I mean, the ad wasn't particularly bad IMO, I'd be willing to say the vast
majority of software job adverts are just not good.

It was certainly near the top of the curve :)

------
csallen
As a programmer who has perused hundreds of job postings in the past, I'm
inclined to agree with the author that the HN post was a good one. Yes, some
of it is bullshit (the napping part), but most of it is great. It's quite
specific and does a good job differentiating itself from many other postings.
Here's what I think when I read it:

 _> "we’re looking to hire a smart all-around programmer"_

Looks like I'm gonna have to be a jack-of-all trades rather than a master of
one. That's good, definitely my style.

 _> "as our first hire."_

A lot will be expected of me. I'll have to be self-motivated and self-
organized. No slacking. Long hours. This is a legitimate _startup_ job.

 _> "It’s a cliche, but we want people who like tackling complicated
problems."_

Yep, cliche. I like that you point it out though, makes me take this
requirement more seriously. I happen to enjoy working through complicated
problems, no reservations here.

 _> "Depending on the task, we program in Ruby (on Rails), Javascript (a lot
of this), PHP, Python, Objective-C (iPhone), and Java (Android). Flexibility
is a plus."_

Great, specifics. Once again, focusing on the jack-of-all trades thing.
They're clearly at a point where they can't (and probably shouldn't) hire
specialists.

 _> "we like people who don’t put themselves in a box. You should be
comfortable thinking about the product as a whole, and how changes are going
to impact the hundreds of thousands of people who use it regularly."_

In other words, this is a startup, we don't want stereotypical big company
guys. I can't just blend in. I'll have a lot of responsibility, and I'll be
making a lot of real decisions. I'm basically a co-founder who's a little late
to the game.

 _> "make the lives of hundreds of thousands of people better every month"_

Hmmm, they seem to care about the social impact of their product. Probably a
good thing, but could be a bad/annoying thing if taken to an extreme.

 _> "napping is an encouraged part of our corporate culture."_

Probably bullshit. I don't have any real desire to nap on the job, but I'll
definitely ask for details out of curiosity.

 _> We’re profitable ... have a rapidly expanding user base_

That's cool, but I'd like to know more. Ramen profitable or Rolls Royce
profitable? 500 new users a day or 5000 users a day? They seem to be trying to
sell me on this point, so if I get an interview I'm going to find out more
specifics. It's good that they care about profits though, I do too.

 _> Basically, you’ll get to be the first employee of a small successful
startup, while getting a paycheck and equity_

Cool. Always good to list what I'll be getting. Will ask about benefits, not
expecting any though.

 _> and feeling good about the impact you’re having on the world._

Another reference to social impact. I have to ask myself, am I the kind of
person who would consider "being a do-gooder" more than a negligible part of
the recompense for the long, stressful hours of startup life? Not a lot of
people will stay up coding til 3AM Saturday night and say, "Hey, at least I
did some good for someone out there."

~~~
MrIncognito
You basically nailed every point. Cofounder who is late to the game is exactly
the job description I was going for. I probably should have just said that :-)

Napping at work is something that people get nervous about, so we want to lead
by example by napping mid-day to show it's cool.

Social impact is pretty important, not just in the doing good sense, but also
in the making the economy more efficient sense. This is taking a huge market
and shrinking it.

------
nostrademons
Ever notice how much easier it is to talk straight when what you've done is
legitimately impressive? Google's press release is held up as an example. I
bet that press release would be every bit as interesting if they just said
"Oh, umm, hi, yeah...look at this!" followed by a video or in-person
demonstration of the cars driving themselves.

As my 3rd grade teacher always said - actions speak louder than words.

------
mahmud
There is no incentive for people to speak clearly[1] when their careers,
environment and everyday interactions are highly hierarchical, and they're
paid, and indeed retain their positions, by being obscure, in an attempt to
sound "big". Sometimes they don't even mean it.

Getting clear answers from the Enterprise types is akin to the Socratic
method, if not psycho-analysis. You would have to repeat the same question
over and over again, until you can illicit the _root_ answer from layers of
vague reasons and non-goals. If you're a contractor, a good way is to not make
eye-contact, and "delve" deeper into thinking as you listen to their answers
(you're not really thinking, you're just encouraging them to think, by
mimicking you.)

Of all the W-questions, "Why" is the most important. Keep asking why, why,
why, until you hit a logical tera firma, something closest to reality, further
down from their tower of froth, and woolly ideas.

\--

[1] I was gonna say "clear spoken", O'oh! Then I remembered my Strunk & White.

~~~
raganwald
_Getting clear answers from the Enterprise types is akin to the Socratic
method_

Or to quote Bob:

    
    
        So what is it you DO here?

------
lhnz
I didn't like either job advert.

I didn't like the first because they couldn't give me even the slightest
inkling about what they do, and that is important to me.

The second was bad because it attempted to describe pretty basic things in a
way that made them seem more exciting than they really are. It also gave me
the impression they were trying to actively mislead me; I don't like that.

Having said that, I think the OP made it seem like the second was completely
impossible to understand and it wasn't: it was just obviously created to sway
and mislead.

------
jolie
As someone who reads scores of pitches a week from tech startups, I can't say
how much I agree with this.

Most of the pitches I get these days force me to wade through swamps of
buzzwords that have become absolutely meaningless. It's enough of a turn-off
that I pretty much ignore those pitches -- I figure that if the company had
something really exciting to tell me, they'd figure out a way to tell me so
within a couple sentences without using endless strings of empty jargon.

In pitching (to journalists, or users, or potential employees), keep in mind
the most basic rule of poetry: The fewer the words, the more powerful the
statement. I.e., less is more.

~~~
redcap
Completely agree - brevity of thought make for a punchy article that is better
to read and more likely to have an impact.

The three main killers are (1) passive voice, (2) long words and (3) jargon.

If you can write something that avoids the above (except when necessary),
you're on your way to reducing any waffle that your reader may have to wade
through, and if polished enough can turn into prose that shines.

Looking at the Microsoft article I can't help but think that they've said
nothing at all, but the Google article has just the facts ma'am and leaves you
the better for it.

------
djm
_Job postings are a great window into a company. They show you just how much
clear thinking is demanded along with how well people communicate._

That line stuck out for me. Writing is window into the minds of the people you
might hire as well as the company doing the hiring though.

I was thinking the other day about the tests companies give prospective
employees to do pre-interview. One idea I came up with in addition to giving
them the usual fizzbuzz programming problems was to test their writing ability
by:

(1) Giving them a page of simple code with comments removed and asking them to
add comment headers to each function, and

(2) Asking them to write a description in plain english of how a moderately
complex function works (make it a function that implements an algorithm rather
than something that processes data).

I'm not in a position to do any hiring and try this myself but I think it
would add a lot of value for the employer in filtering applicants. If I were
looking for a job seeing an employer doing this would give me a lot more
confidence in them also.

------
ryanwaggoner
In all fairness to Microsoft, telling people why they should be excited about
a smartphone in a crowded market is a lot harder than explaining why you
should care about autonomous vehicles.

The elevator pitch for cars that drive themselves is: "These cars drive
themselves."

------
malbiniak
Can we call this what it is?

    
    
      Need help with an iOS project? Let's talk, I'm great with both UX and code.
      If I can help you out with a project you’re working on, let’s talk.
    

I think it's great that companies are finally starting to recognize the value
of their workforce (eg Zappos, 37signals, Groupon, JetBlue, Google). If the
original job post didn't have YC associated with it, would any of you have
taken it seriously?

Danilo, I hope you get the chance to work with these guys, but stop speaking
bullshit.

~~~
danilocampos
Damn, that could have been a great angle. Not really my skillset, though.
Besides, I _have_ a job. And other plans.

Please, though -- my name is Danilo, not Dan.

------
edanm
Just a curiosity: I wonder if there was a sentence to read my mother over the
phone when the iPhone came out which would have made her understand what it
is. I doubt it, yet Apple is considered the masters of this field.

In other words, I think the Google Car thing is an unusual and extreme
example. Most tech products, including smart phones and including almost every
web app I use, don't have a "killer sentence" which will make everyone
understand why it's good.

~~~
danilocampos
I think there was, though. Apple's release read:

“Apple Reinvents the Phone with iPhone”

So you can easily convey the goal. Then:

"Apple® today introduced iPhone, combining three products—a revolutionary
mobile phone, a widescreen iPod® with touch controls, and a breakthrough
Internet communications device with desktop-class email, web browsing,
searching and maps—into one small and lightweight handheld device."

Some puffery but reasonably clear what's going on.

~~~
alain94040
"a phone so simple a 3-year old can use it"

Really, you don't need to say more than that. You don't want to get into the
details of what touch is and how it works The point is that it's the first
phone that anyone can pick up and just have fun with.

------
bdclimber14
Here's another great bullshit speak piece by an entrepreneurship program at
ASU called the "Venture Catalyst." Warning, there are more buzzwords here than
a new employee handbook.

asuventurecatalyst.org

------
dasil003
That job posting stood out to me as well, and I think for startups this is
great advice. However, the elephant in the room is what a pitch for Windows
Mobile actually should look like?

It seems like acknowledging the shitty past would be a huge gamble, because
you would be reminding customers of how bad Windows Mobile was in general,
which makes the customer question how much it really could have improved.
Granted, everyone appreciates straight talk in theory, but they also have to
weigh how many people will correctly interpret a straight message versus how
many would be sucked in by the BS. Of course it would have been much easier if
they had something truly interesting to offer, but let's face it, most
products are not world-changing, and for a company with the kind of political
overhead Microsoft has, it's already a major success to ship something that
brings them up to par with other market players.

------
hasenj
This reminds me of: <http://37signals.com/02>

Unfortunately many people think that bullshitting is required and it is _the_
secret to marketing and making money.

------
bherms
This isn't just a characteristic of the tech community, but people in general.
People who don't know or understand something, companies who aren't selling
life improving substantial products, and those without confidence need to
resort to the fine art of bullshit to make them feel more confident in
whatever snake oil they're trying to sell. When you don't have the goods, it's
much easier and beneficial to you to add the fluff. It sucks, but it isn't
going away. :(

------
olefoo
But speaking bullshit is so comforting, it makes you feel safe.

When you're synergizing your core competencies dynamically, nobody understands
what you meant and nobody is going to challenge you. You have the power. You
must be important, people are paying attention to you, or at least doing a
good job of faking it.

Besides baffling them with bullshit is what makes meetings work, and meetings
are where things get done! (aren't they?)

//Gur nobir jnf fngver

~~~
Devilboy
The great thing about bullshit is I don't have to know what I'm talking about
at all!

------
awakeasleep
I don't even think this phenomenon is limited to technical communication. Have
you ever noticed yourself resorting to cliches when speaking to your friends
or loved ones? I have.

Cliches are uttered as if they were abstract nuggets of knowledge/feeling we
use with precision and understand.

But when I look at myself they're actually vague scabs covering topics I
haven't actually thought about, am scared to think about, or am purposefully
trying to avoid.

------
djhworld
There's a filter happening here and it's systematic of large companies. Job
advertisements are usually managed by HR departments rather than directly by
managers themselves.

Managers just tell HR they need X,Y and Z to meet the their needs and HR pad
out the description with stuff they vaguely understand.

------
jonhendry
Lucy Kellaway, a journalist with the Financial Times who also turns up on the
BBC World Service business show, is good on this. She regularly roasts
executives for nonsensical empty verbage.

She recently had two columns praising Apple and Steve Jobs for being
straightforward.

1) Regarding Apple's plain-spoken iPhone app guidelines
[http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6770a2b8-c2a1-11df-956e-00144feab4...](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6770a2b8-c2a1-11df-956e-00144feab49a.html)

2) Regarding Steve Jobs' curt response to the college girl seeking a response
for a school paper story [http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/77c8e4cc-c823-11df-
ae3a-00144feab4...](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/77c8e4cc-c823-11df-
ae3a-00144feab49a.html)

------
anigbrowl
I think the problem is that some people want the abstraction and the strategic
plan, some want a quick idea they can make a snap decision about. A seller
doesn't know in advance which sort of buyer he's going to meet, but there's a
good chance they tried out a 30 second pitch on a bank manager once, only to
be asked a bunch of complex questions for which they didn't have an answer.

It's like job hunting, or dating. Every so often there's instant chemistry,
but most people fall back on the laundry list.

------
sown
I've gotten so used to the later kinds of job postings that I didn't really
know how to react when I applied for the former job posting.

I sort of locked up and thought for about 10 minutes before I just mailed off
my resume and a link to some stuff I've done without a really good letter.

I guess the author of this blog post is right: it was a rare job posting and I
discovered I didn't know how to react.

------
lionhearted
Good piece.

The second job description is written by a manager-type that only vaguely
understands the technology. Actually, a place like that would be okay to work
if they gave you high enough levels of authority. If you were to inquire about
the position, you could say something like, "Hi, I'm interested in your
posting, I fit your desired qualifications and skills quite well, but I was
wondering who I'd directly report to and how much experience they have with
technology?" Interview them a little. Then if (when) they say not much, you
explain you'd be interested in the position so long as you get to do things
your way. They give you the broad overview of what they want to achieve, you
give them the timetable, resources required, and method you propose to achieve
it. Working for a non-technical boss isn't actually always the horror it's
made out to be, _so long as he respects your talent and stays out of the way_.

I've managed people with various skills I don't have, and it's actually not
that hard - I explain what the high level objectives we want to achieve are,
have those objectives repeated back to me in the person's own words, and then
let them build a plan to get there from here and execute it. I'll do enough
research into the field that I can ask a smart question or two and generally
know what's going on, but then I try to just get good people and stay out of
the way. If you can set that sort of thing up, it can be quite satisfying if
you like self starting and autonomy.

~~~
gommm
I can't agree more with that... As a software development company, my best
customers have been people who didn't understand the technology. The best ones
accepted that it was my job to understand it and take care of it for them and
would stay out of the way...

Customers who understand a bit about technology (because they've programmed a
small Visual Basic software to help them before) are the most micro-managing
people I've had and are a hell to work with...

So, the simple thing is that in any working relationships, you need to respect
the other otherwise you're not going to go anywhere. The same goes with
business and technical cofounders (and way too many tecnical cofounders don't
respect enough the amount of work needed on the business side of things).

------
Tycho
I find reading job adverts makes me feel empty inside, seriously. It's like an
infinite regression of pre-emptive bullshitting.

------
mannicken
>What does it mean to drive an innovative consumer app?

I know, I know!

Let's say we have a car named 'app'. Now, what we need is someone with a
driver license who can drive it in a new way (e.g. stoned). The car also needs
to consume large quantities of gasoline, so perhaps it will be a bus or a
truck.

So what they need is a stoned truck driver. How can they be more clearer?

------
badmonkey0001
"Things Users Really Want to Do" == "TURWD" == the word "turd" as said by
Elmer Fudd?

------
known
There are 3 types of interviewers

    
    
       HR rant
       Those who can *recommend* to hire
       Those who can *actually* hire

------
davidnelson
awesome

