
Does Life End at 35? (2013) - Red_Tarsius
https://web.archive.org/web/20131101195131/http://kzhu.net/does-life-end-at-35.html
======
mark_l_watson
Laughable.

I am in my mid-60s, manage a machine learning team at a fine company, busy
writing a new book, and getting close to being an investor in a new company.

My Dad is 96 and does 3D animation, makes movies and documentaries, and is
still a member of the national academy of science.

Life ends either when one gives up learning and doing new things, or when our
bodies finally wear out :-)

~~~
fellellor
Having whiled away my youth doing nothing of note, your statement is very
inspiring.

And the article also conveys the same idea. The title is a misnomer (if some
kind).

~~~
majewsky
It's not a misnomer. Just another instance of Betteridge's Law.

------
surrey-fringe
I find myself thinking about this a bit lately.

When I was in high school I was a middle distance runner. I trained a bit
harder than I should have. I was lucky to never have a significant injury that
made me unable to run for more than a couple days, but there were definitely
times when I felt burnt out, and I didn't compete after high school. Burnout,
stress fractures and other roadblocks were very common among kids who ran more
than eight miles a day, but many of us had this attitude that we had to take
risks and push ourselves. I think we felt pressured because college wasn't far
off, and we really only had one shot to go D1.

I'd troll a running forum called Dyestat a lot and there was this goon a grade
above me who'd post questions every day about how he should structure his
training (e.g. "is increasing 10% per week too much? How long should my long
run be?"). The questions weren't bad questions, but everyone found them absurd
because he'd run 10, maybe 15 miles in a week. How about spend time actually
training instead of talking about training?

Because he took his boundaries so seriously, he increased his training load at
a snail's pace -- I don't think he ran a 60 mile week before college. He
improved consistently every year, never got injured, and never burned out. He
went D2 (D1 > D3 > D2) and killed it. Now at 26 he runs 100+ mile weeks at
6:00 pace and tools on kids at the turkey trot every year. I check his twitter
from time to time and it's clear he loves the sport as much as I did when I
started.

I like to think that the difference was that he had a long-term goal that
wasn't attached to some instantaneous outcome. He wanted to be able to push
himself for the rest of his life, even if it meant waiting till past his prime
to be any good.

I think in general if you make a change that's sustainable for the rest of
your life, you win.

~~~
jghn
Assuming D2 means NCAA Division 2? If so, why is it weaker than D3?

~~~
milesdyson_phd
It's the same in lacrosse.

------
dawhizkid
I'm biased, but I have to say that as a gay male there seems to be much less
rigidity around having to do something by a certain age. I'm guessing a large
part of that is the fact that there's not really any societal expectations
around marriage/having kids/settling down, which also plays a big part in the
fact that your social life doesn't necessarily die down in your 30s and, in
fact, you see many older gay men in their 40s, 50s+ in the same social circles
or parties/events you might attend in your 20s or 30s.

It's actually incredibly freeing and makes me appreciate being gay even more
the older I get (though still in my 20s)

~~~
rsynnott
I think the social stuff has become less rigid for everyone as society has
progressed. I’m gay and in my 30s, but I know plenty of straight people my age
who also aren’t doing the married-with-2.5-children thing, either. You mileage
may vary depending on where you live, obviously.

So far, well, my 30s are better than my 20s, anyway.

~~~
dawhizkid
Very true - just saying, on average, there are more societal pressures for
straight people to do this and that by this age vs gay people. This may be
more or less true depending on religious background, ethnic background,
family, etc.

I'm all for anyone sticking it to the man and not doing anything they don't
want to do.

------
megaman22
My father always told me that his 30s were the best years of his life. He was
married to a good woman, he had two children, he was in the prime of life,
with friends, family, athletic excellence, and a career that he loved. His 20s
were a wasteland of disappointment, in comparison.

~~~
megaman22
At nearly 29, with my own wasteland of twenty-something years in the rearview,
I can only be optimistic about the future

~~~
tluyben2
As you should be; I think this kind of pondering also did not yet adjust for
the new life of the elderly; my mother of 70 is healthier and more active than
my granparents were in their 50s. And I see that all around me. Not only are
you not even at 1/3rd of your life; you will reach close to 100% healthy and
active (assuming western country and access to healthcare which is a lot to
assume, but this is HN) so you should be optimistic and just do things you
want while not staring at your age. Thinking about getting old and lost
opportunities makes you old fast.

------
analog31
I'm 53. Life didn't end for me at 35. Since then I've changed careers, raised
two wonderful kids, launched a small but successful side business, and have
greatly improved as a musician.

~~~
flashgordon
Hey Id definitely love to hear about how greatly improved as a musician? I
picked up an instrument in my 20s and I feel like am plataeuing (I love
playing the instrument and I love practising - and not just the easy stuff).
The feeling is more about "so what now". How do you get past that existential
question?

~~~
analog31
Do you have a chance to play in an ensemble? There's an old adage: "Try to
play with musicians who are better than you." I was extremely lucky to fall
into a sort of community band, full of really good musicians. It has been a
challenge to keep up with the band. While it's not a professional group, it's
managed by grown-ups, so it's well organized and the rehearsals are efficient.

In general, performing adds a dimension to your playing, even if it's not the
hardest music that you've played. If you don't have time for a band, I know it
sounds kind of corny, but retirement homes love to have musicians. Some have
money, others don't. The joy that it brings to people who are lonely and of
limited mobility is incalculable.

Also, +1 to the other comments in this chain.

~~~
flashgordon
Actually totally agree about playing in an Ensemble. I used to do this before
I moved here. I had tons of folks to have jam sessions with. And that was an
amazing way to improve as you had constant feedback and guidance. Now I am
just finding it hard to get into a circle which is pretty much entrenched and
closed. I am not sure if I have become less friendlier (i doubt it) or have
people become less forgiving of "amateurs"!

Hmmm love the idea of playing in retirement homes. Definitely did not think
about that! By the way what instrument do you pay?

------
leoh
I really liked this essay and I tried to send it to a friend in Paris via FB
Messenger and got a weird message:

> You can't post this because it has a blocked link

> The content you're trying to share includes a link that our security systems
> detected to be unsafe:

> kzhu.net

> [http://kzhu.net/does-life-end-at-35.html](http://kzhu.net/does-life-end-
> at-35.html)

Anyone know what might be happening here?

~~~
cromulent
You are reading an archive of the old kzhu.net page on archive.org .

If you try to use sharing links etc from within the archived article, they may
have problems as the kzhu.net page is now run by different people for a
different purpose.

Maybe try sharing the link manually.

------
forapurpose
One difference IMHO between many young and old people is the willingness to
invest in starting something new. I don't mean money, I mean spending years
learning something, spinning your wheels facing an uncertain outcome, with
little progress, income or status while you try to get traction, etc.

Many in their early 20s are willing to work crappy jobs, live cheaply, and
accept the status of having not much to show while they try for their dream.
Think of actors waiting tables, as a simple example. How many 35 year olds
would do that?

I know it's not that simple: Older people often have obligations, such as
children, which make such things more difficult. Also, many businesses are
unaccustomed to and thus unwilling to hire older people to entry-level jobs.
The (40-something?) intern played by Robert DeNiro was meant to be absurd, but
when I saw the previews I thought: Why shouldn't 40 year olds start a new
career the same way that 20 year olds do? I can't think of a good reason. And
if not, how do they start a new career?

~~~
stinkytaco
I think there's some trepidation in hiring someone older in an entry level
job. People wonder why, and what might have made them leave what they were
doing for something low status and low paying. Also, they wonder if the person
will be hard to manage, because let's be frank, what some companies really
want in an entry level employee is someone they can push around.

I can't say is haven't wondered these things myself at times, though I have
hired people in their 40s and 50s for these types of positions before. We've
got several retired folks working in part time positions and they are perfect.
Professional, knowledgeable, prompt, hard working, and not looking to jump to
full time.

~~~
forapurpose
> Professional, knowledgeable, prompt, hard working, and not looking to jump
> to full time.

Good points. What I meant to talk about was people who are looking to jump to
full time; someone that age who wants to start a new career.

Isn't what you describe exactly what many people that age say is a problem:
They can't get an opportunity to do anything but part-time, dead-end work.

------
misnamed
Maybe not work life, but social life sure died down around that time (people
having kids, etc.).

~~~
tluyben2
My social life has gotten much more active after 30. Depends on the situation,
but I guess for most people you are right.

~~~
Yhippa
I've defined who I truly want to be around in my 30's even if that means it's
fewer people. Way more comforting than my 20's.

~~~
mcny
But the twenties themselves were much more comfortable than high school. And
nothing will ever compare to the horrors of middle school. In that sense, of
course life is easier because we don't care as much about other people's
opinion anymore. As I learn that other people are just as clueless and full of
it as I am, I am more confident even though I know I know nothing.

~~~
tluyben2
Well, I find this 'it gets better' to be everywhere but phyiscal; i'm begin
40s, my mind is clearer than ever before and I can pretty much do what I want
and where I want. This seems to improve decade over decade. You start out
bound and restricted and then free up over time.

------
vadimberman
Almost 42 here, will echo the rest.

My teens were miserable, my 20s sucked, my 30s were so good I thought I went
to haven living in a time loop, my 40s started a bit rocky but now I'm pretty
good. My athletic shape peaked around the age of 38 but now I'm pretty close.

The funny thing is, in my 20s I was also in a rush to succeed as fast as
possible, and in retrospect, it was very silly. I keep hearing folks in their
late 20s saying, "my time is running out", and I can't help but smile.

The best thing about the advancing age is how things start making sense and
come together.

------
StanislavPetrov
It's a cliche, but the older you get, the more you realize that "age really is
just a number". As an older person, your health is infinitely more relevant
than your age. While you tend to suffer poorer health when you get older, this
really doesn't become an substantive issue until at least your late 50s (later
if you keep yourself in good shape and don't get unlucky). Live life and keep
on doing what you enjoy doing (as opposed to what you think you are supposed
to do or what other people tell you that you should do) for as long as you are
able and you will get just as much satisfaction out of life no matter what
your age.

------
Gaussian
Interesting piece, thanks for sharing. I'm constantly plucking at deeper
questions around this topic. High-level creative genius seems to fall off for
many people in their fourth decade (their 30s), at least for musicians and
many mathematicians. This is less the rule for writers, I've found, and I've
often wondered about the reasons behind that. I have theories, but I'm more
interested in other peoples' thoughts on the entire topic of being able to
conjure creative solutions and at what age those capabilities seem to peak, at
what ages people have been able to sustain them, and when people have noticed
these capabilities ebbing.

------
rectang
"Oh yeah, life goes on... long after the thrill of livin' is gone"

"Hold onto 16 as long as you can..."

 _Jack and Diane_ by John Mellencamp

By 35, you've died twice. You may as well stop caring what dopes like
Mellencamp say.

------
PhilWright
I can answer this without reading the article. I am 47 and still alive,
therefore life does not end at 35.

~~~
skj
Checking in at 36 and dead, so let's remember that the plural of "anecdote" is
not "evidence".

~~~
hinkley
If you don’t mind me asking. Does it hurt? What do you do all [day] when
you’re dead?

~~~
unit91
> What do you do all [day(?)] when you’re dead?

Glorify God.

~~~
mythrwy
Pretty powerful motivation to start taking better care of oneself and stop
texting while driving right there.

------
lucaspiller
I have some friends in Germany, and their view - for the middle class - is
that life begins in your 50s. At this age your kids have moved off to college
or university, your debts are mostly paid off (not that debt is really a thing
in Germany) and you can look forward to a few decades of retirement. The
important part however is this only works if you are healthy enough to enjoy
it, so it’s important at a young age to take care of your body and not
overwork.

------
opportune
I like that the grandfather got a lot done in his later years, but I think the
more important question to ask is: how do we define success? Is it binary, or
are there varying levels of it? What is bad about not achieving success at a
certain level?

We like to view life as a sequence of accomplishments, because it helps us
understand others' lives. But does it make sense to frame your own life that
way?

~~~
Red_Tarsius
Short-term success: the survival of the individual (you).

Long-term success: the thriving of our species.

~~~
nkozyra
I think this is our instinctual motivators, but individually humans have
afforded ourselves buffers to lessen how critical basic survival is to our
days, months, years.

So we seek happiness. Not contentment, but happiness. We are sold ideals that
represent happiness and feel unhappy when we don't hit them.

It's great when you find someone that is generally happy with health,
stability and family. I suspect that's a minority in this space, where there
are overnight millionaires, CS savants and business success everywhere you
look. Some work their tails off for decades and never hit the mark. Some see
fleeting success and then dead ends.

How does one transition from "I want to bust my ass, blow everyone away with
my startup and walk away set for life" to "I have weekends off, a great family
and a path to a comfortable retirement?" Are some people just wired like this
or is it trained behavior?

~~~
automatoney
I'm more inclined to see it as trained behavior because this kind of thing
varies by culture.

It's probably a combination of the culture and expectations around the
individual rather than the individual themselves. Children are pretty often
told they can be whoever they want to be by society, and so their bar is set
pretty high. But when was the last time a 30 year received the message that
they could be anybody they wanted to? People expect different things of older
people, and the whole situation, with all of the narratives we use to define
ourselves and others, is probably pretty self reinforcing. The attitude also
likely shifts as you have a family and they grow up - again I think it's about
what people expect. No studies to cite here, but just throwing out some ideas.

------
mythrwy
Nope. Real adulthood starts around 35 though. Possibly a year or two earlier.

I've always thought the worst think about human lifespan is that, in modern
times by the time you get educated and mentally/emotionally adjusted and
enough time to really get proficient at a craft you only have like a decade or
less before slowdown starts. Then you have the other half of your life being
"old".

In more primitive times (most of the history of the species) I believe a
person was basically a small adult at puberty. There wasn't much more to
learn, there wasn't a great deal to "experiment" with, crafts and trades were
simple enough to be picked up in a few years. You had kids early and generally
died at not much more than 40 and that was that.

Although I'm opposed to immortality (until we get some other things worked
out) it would be cool if we could stay in physical/mental prime for the same
proportion of lifespan as we did in earlier days. Because adulthood begins so
much later.

~~~
codeisawesome
True. Navigating the complexity of today’s human society in every dimension in
way where you’re comfortable with yourself, takes a long time. It’s a tragedy
we don’t stay in peak working condition for sufficiently long after we get
there.

------
thx4allthestuff
Whether we like it or not, we are all gardeners. When you are young you won’t
be able to see much of your garden, because it will take some time to bloom.
Once it does take root though, you may find that you measure your success less
in the things you do directly in your day to day job, and more in the gradual
change that you cultivate around you. When I hear people panic about growing
old, I feel that sometimes they aren’t yet able to see the roots that they
have placed, and how powerful those are. If anywhere in your mind the thought
has taken hold that life is over after 35, then wake up. That’s when the real
work begins. Sometimes things will be easy, and sometimes they will be hell.
When it’s your turn to face that hellish stretch of road, remember to smile.

------
yotamoron
"It takes 20 years to make an overnight success" \- Eddie Cantor.

------
nulldereference
> Do you count down the years until you can no longer make the 30 under 30
> list?

Hitting 30 seems to be the benchmark point. The "What have you done with your
life so far, its all down hill from here" moment.

Its not just the regular folk, we get essays from far more accomplished folk
like sama as well. [1]

[1] [http://blog.samaltman.com/the-days-are-long-but-the-
decades-...](http://blog.samaltman.com/the-days-are-long-but-the-decades-are-
short)

~~~
quickthrower2
I didn't pick up on any "downhill" sentiment in the sama article you linked
to.

------
mentalgainz
I like that these type of questions get asked. In today's age I feel like 35
is the new 25. I read a great article on investors that can translate to a
good life. You guys should give it a read:

[https://passivetalks.com/the-beginners-guide-to-bitcoin-
taxa...](https://passivetalks.com/the-beginners-guide-to-bitcoin-taxation-
with-tips-and-tricks/)

------
aaronbrethorst
_Does Life End at 35?_

No.

 _Do you sometimes lie awake worrying that you aren 't succeeding fast
enough?_

No.

 _Are you tortured by younger peers who have global businesses, penned
acclaimed books and a string of iron-man medals?_

No.

 _Do you count down the years until you can no longer make the 30 under 30
list?_

No.

------
coldtea
> _Are you tortured by younger peers who have global businesses, penned
> acclaimed books and a string of iron-man medals?_

All few tens of thousands of them, in a 350 million country?

------
mrchess
fwiw that translation is wrong. 大器晚成 means "The bigger the cauldron/pot, the
longer it will take to cast/make [the cauldron]."

------
crx087
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines)

------
halis
The short answer is yes...

~~~
christogreeff
And the longer version is yes, if you want to only live until 35.

