
Cuomo Declares a State of Emergency for the Subway - cribbles
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/29/nyregion/cuomo-declares-a-state-of-emergency-for-the-subway.html
======
bedhead
I would argue that a large reason why infrastructure tends to fall into such
sorry states of disrepair in the US is because of the vast misalignment of
interests between politicians and the services. When the person responsible
for this stuff has a shelf life of maybe four years, there's simply no
incentive to allocate adequate amounts of time, energy, and capital towards
things which someone else will inevitably get credit for because of the time
it takes. Besides, no one gets praised for this sort of thing...it's just
something they're expected to do. The whole thing is a shame.

~~~
Shivetya
it is far easier to promise service than it is to pay for it. in that regard
making promises to the users of the service and workers is one thing, when it
comes to paying the bill they always kick the can down the road.

NYC is the only American city which relies on heavy transit, just a little
more than half the people working there use it. Only one other city crests ten
percent and the after that its five percent and down.

It is the most expensive transportation option available to commuters at all
stages when you calculate it per passenger mile, this is with subsidies
included. Even building all those roads the automobile less that a fourth of
the cost and most public transit will be superseded by autonomous cars and
buses; the later which can adapt to changing needs that subway and heavy rail
cannot.

Besides all the deferred maintenance and NYC is not alone in this, many lines
are tens of billions in deferred maintenance, many lines face hundreds of
millions with a few at a billion in underfunded pensions. Worse, subsidies
have not increased ridership but instead employment. When most lines came
about in the hay days of such it was nearly 60k riders per worker, that has
fallen to less than 30k riders being served per worker.

the simple fact is that such transit is expensive to build and maintain and
even with incredible subsidy they cannot get enough people to ride it though
NYC gets close. NYC has the same problem the rest do, no one wants to pay
anywhere near what the actual cost is per passenger mile to use it.

~~~
julesqs
this is such a bad take. the point of public transit is not to get enough
people to ride it so the system is profitable. do we expect roads to be
profitable? they aren't, even if you say "the gas tax".

and lol at heavy rail can't meet needs that cars can. A single subway line in
New York can carry 60k people _in each direction_ at peak capacity. Autonomous
cars are years away and will never achieve that efficiency just because of
space.

~~~
ascagnel_
Subways are the most efficient way to move people in terms of square footage
needed to move a person at speed, with heavy rail a close second, and walking
third. You can fit 4-6 adults comfortably on a subway train with less space
than those same people in a private automobile.

------
conradev
Amtrak is in a sorry state as well. They announced recently that they are
going to perform much needed maintenance on NY Penn station (which they own,
and which the MTA's LIRR uses) [1].

From former Amtrak CEO David Hughes:

"The accumulated deferred maintenance and lack of attention really makes it
almost a third-world operation." [2]

[1] [http://www.cbsnews.com/news/amtrak-crash-philadelphia-
highli...](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/amtrak-crash-philadelphia-highlights-
aging-infrastructure/)

[2] [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/09/nyregion/nj-transit-
sched...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/09/nyregion/nj-transit-schedule-
penn-station-repairs.html)

~~~
ams6110
Amtrak should have been euthanized decades ago. They have been abysmal for
years, perhaps somewhat better in the Northeast.

The Northeast routes should have been sold off to regional transit authorities
and the rest of the system shut down.

~~~
rayiner
You're not wrong. The northeast system is absolutely viable--bankrolled mostly
by business travelers who get a lot of value out of being plopped down in the
middle of Manhattan or D.C. at the end of the trip. The underlying rail is
viable for commuter lines too. Otherwise it's a boondoggle and diverts money
that could be better used elsewhere.

~~~
crzwdjk
It's hard to say whether the long distance trains are viable as a
transportation service, because they're also in the "land cruise" business and
oddly enough that part seems even less profitable. It's the source of a lot of
the expenses, especially for things like food service. Amtrak has actually
tried cutting the diner on one of the Florida trains and dropping sleeper
prices by $100, and is making considerably more money on that train, so
there's still some potential to get close to 100% cost recovery on LD service
if Amtrak gets out of running the land cruise business, which it seems
reluctant to do because of tradition.

~~~
rayiner
I'm not sure that works long term. Even budget airlines offer meals and long
haul flights, and Amtrak long distance routes are often 15+ hours long.

------
gdubs

      “We know what we need to do. He mentioned the subway’s
      aging signal system. We live in a digital age. Our signal
      system isn’t even analog. It’s mechanical.”
    

Now _there 's_ something I'd like to read a HN post on.

~~~
adammck
You might find this interesting:
[https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-d...](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-
dont-we-know-where-all-the-trains-are/415152/)

------
uptown
"Every New York City Subway Line Is Getting Worse. Here’s Why."

[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/28/nyregion/subw...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/28/nyregion/subway-
delays-overcrowding.html)

------
JohnTHaller
Ignore it and short-change it while hoping the NYC mayor takes the blame until
there's a problem, then pretend to be concerned and have a big public "plan"
to fix it to try to look like the savior.

~~~
Afforess
This subway crisis and others like it is the end result of the cycle of
"Crisis Management". We have politicians who "never let a good crisis go to
waste", a media which practically requires a constant state of crisis
somewhere to attract meaningful attention (and thus ad-revenue) and the final
result is that society can barely focus on whatever actively burning crisis is
at hand. Future simmering problems are ignored and actively shortchanged,
because the political class doesn't care (trains running on time doesn't get
you votes, only smearing your political opponents messes do!). The media class
cannibalized itself long ago, and no longer has enough revenue to run both a
major online presence and deep investigative reporting that could surface
future problems in advance. Citizens rightly distrust both as being myopic
rent-seeking classes - and they are! Sadly, this mistrust does nothing to fix
either situation, only giving both new excuses for why everything is broken.

What's worse is that perpetual firefighting is 10-100x more expensive than
fixing a crisis in advance. Perpetual "Crisis Management" is a large driver of
the cost disease that infects many industries, like infrastructure and
healthcare. Why will "fixing" the subway cost billion of dollars? Because NYC
eagerly let the technical debt and maintenance build up in exchange for it not
being $poitician's problem yesterday. There was no incentive to improve and
fix the situation in advance. There still isn't. So whatever Cumuo does here,
don't worry - we'll be back again for a repeat next decade.

~~~
astockwell
Like the programmer anecdote that's made the HN rounds recently: Being a
crummy programmer who regularly saves the day (because the system is crummy
and constantly needs saving) will get you more esteem/money/visibility than
being a good programmer who's systems hum along with no fuss.

~~~
seanp2k2
Why do it right the first time and only get one celebration? Just push your
first cut to prod then start planning a deprecation / upgrade / migration
cycle. Repeat until you get promoted to a management role. Repeat until you're
rich enough to retire early or dead.

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perseusprime11
NJTransit and Subways failing at the same time makes it really hard for
commuters especially ones with families and kids who need to be picked up and
dropped at day care and schools. The lack of leadership and vision are making
Big Apple into a third world country. What good is it for customers to have
free wifi on Streets but failing subways.

~~~
vonmoltke
I commute in from Jersey and I have booked a few hotel stays since the
derailments because I would have to leave the house well before 7 to guarantee
making it in by 9.

~~~
perseusprime11
Is your company paying?

------
nickthemagicman
Classic 'Starve the beast' politics.

Don't fund the public service and it fails.

The first paragraph is about 'entrepenuers' lining up to fix the subway...

There's going to be contracts.and aton of money to be made

------
jlampa
This article describes the challenges faced by the NYC subway system in a
fascinating way:
[https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-d...](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-
dont-we-know-where-all-the-trains-are/415152/)

------
carlisle_
I hope California is taking notes.

~~~
koolba
Clearly Illinois wasn't:
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-28/illinois-...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-28/illinois-
is-in-a-6-billion-budget-hole-and-flirting-with-junk)

~~~
selectodude
I don't know, the CTA seems to be functioning okay.

~~~
ams6110
The CTA/RTA is highly corrupt. Unsurprising for Chicago. The usual kind of
stuff: patronage hiring, pension shenanigans. A former executive director
stepped in front of a Metra train on the day he was going to be fired for
taking $475,000 of unapproved vacation pay.

~~~
tacomonstrous
At least the trains are mostly working, unlike NYC or DC. Corruption coupled
with performance is more palatable than corruption that leads to chaos.

------
deevolution
If the transit system were privately owned, would it be in better condition?

~~~
dajt
No chance. The deferred maintenance would be even worse, operators would come
and go rebranding everything every few years, they'd all point fingers at each
other when something went wrong... ugh.

Look at the mess the UK rail system is in - absurdly high ticket prices,
confusing interconnections, bad service, finger pointing, bad maintenance,
it's a mess.

The original railways were privately owned and apparently worked pretty well
but it is a different world now. Minimal costs trump all else and that's no
way to run a city's mass transit system. They will never be profitable
enterprises, they are a public service, for the good of the public and the
city itself.

~~~
dogruck
You lead with "no chance", and subsequently acknowledge that the NYC subways
used to be privately owned, and that it worked well.

Ever wonder why _airplanes_ had wifi before the subway? Private vs public.

Ever compare the privately owned NYC ferries (fully open to the public) with
the publicly owned ferries?

~~~
dajt
I've spent a single day in NYC all my life so have no idea.

I'm wondering if ferries are easier to run as there is less infrastructure.
There are the equivalent of stations and maintenance depots, but not rails. I
don't know who owns the ferry infrastructure or if it is shared.

If you privatised the trains, would the different operators share tracks and
stations? If so who would own and maintain them? My guess is the operators
would baulk at the idea of maintaining ANY infrastructure and just want to run
trains leased from the govt, over a system maintained by the govt, who now has
less revenue from the fares.

In NSW our railway barely if never got to operational status under private
ownership. The govt took it over immediately and it has been priceless for the
state ever since. But of course bean counters have been complaining about it
for decades now. I think there has been privatisation stuff going on for a
while like the airport line. They were also trying to disentangle the various
routes so they could sell them off, but that is hard because they didn't need
to be planned that way when built.

It seems to me like a city's metro system is too important to leave in the
hands of private operators whose only reason to exist is to make a profit and
that will bail out the second things are not worth its time and money. If the
metro chokes, so does the city.

~~~
greggyb
Who owns and builds airports? Private airlines run flights out of these.

Who owns and builds roads and gas stations? Private bus companies, taxis,
rideshares, chauffeurs, and shipping companies run on these.

Who owns ports? Private cruise lines, ferries, and shipping companies run
ships out of these.

Who owns freight rail and associated stations? Private freight and logistics
companies move products over these.

Elsewhere in this thread are comments about Tokyo's private subway companies
(three of them).

~~~
dogruck
Are you proposing that public money build the rail lines, and private
companies operate the trains on those lines?

Airports (and baseball stadiums) are built with public money because of
competition between municipalities. They are primarily funded by the people
who use them though.

Gas stations are private enterprises.

~~~
greggyb
I propose nothing, just ask questions that the parent of my post seems to
imply the answer should be no to.

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bpodgursky
> “I made eye contact with a couple of people, and they made a sad face,” she
> said. “I guess it was a nice human moment.”

And to think they claim living in NY is dehumanizing!

Yeah, it's hard to imagine the amount of money it would take me to live there.

~~~
santaclaus
I dunno, having lived across the US (the southeast, NYC, Colorado, Bay Area,
Oregon, Washington), NYC is far from the unfriendliest city. I see way more
open hostility in California, which somehow has a rep for being laid back.

~~~
zachsnow
I wonder if the subway actually increases the perceived friendliness? Everyone
that has driven a car has likely experienced road rage in one form or another.

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liberte82
You can do that?

~~~
ProAm
It just frees up funds... its not a real emergency.

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pcunite
I did not realize he legislated banks to make Affirmative Action (Subprime)
loans as HUD Sectary during President Bill Clinton's administration. I did not
realize he was the brother of CNN news anchor Chris Cuomo.

