
Telecom Lobbyists Successfully Remove Canada from Wireless Pricing Report - ericzawo
https://www.iphoneincanada.ca/carriers/telecom-lobbyists-remove-canada-wireless-report/
======
remote_phone
Canada is a cesspool of oligopolies, from TV to Cell Phone to Banks, etc.The
excuse is always “if we don’t then some foreign/US company could come in and
destroy our culture.” Which of course is bullshit. A handful of companies are
making billions and billions off the backs of Canadian with worse service and
it won’t get any better unless the oligopolies are broken.

~~~
tpmx
This sounds a bit like the general situation in Australia.

It annoyed me to no end when I lived there but the locals didn't seem to
worry.

~~~
jbarham
> This sounds a bit like the general situation in Australia.

As a Canadian living in Australia since 2011, I have to disagree. Politically
Canada is much more of a protectionist nanny state than Australia.

For mobile service in particular (i.e., the topic of this dicussion),
Australia is much more competitive than Canada despite also being a very
large, sparsely populated country. I pay $25/month for unlimited calls and 18
GB of 4G data ([https://www.aldimobile.com.au/plans/value-
packs/](https://www.aldimobile.com.au/plans/value-packs/)). Unlike Canada,
Australia allows strong, foreign competitors to provide mobile service (e.g.,
Vodafone and Optus).

Other ways in which Australia is less protectionist than Canada: \- parallel
private healthcare system \- parallel private education system (although not
at university level) \- buy alcohol anywhere, not just at government owned
stores \- no dairy and poultry "supply management" \- foreign owned
supermarkets (e.g., Aldi)

Australia is far from perfect (e.g., the natural gas cartel is far too
powerful) but on the whole there's far less government interference that
protects cozy domestic oligopolies compared Canada.

~~~
tpmx
Sorry, I guess I was unclear. I wasn't talking about the Telstra situation.
It's not great but it also not Canada level bad. I also wasn't talking about
healthcare/alcohol etc.

I think where Australia suffers is in things like imported goods (often
there's an extra 20-40% markup beyond the maybe 5% higher shipping cost. Or
sometimes it's shipped directly from China, but still way more expensive. I
think many brand owners have just decided Australia will be able to tolerate a
higher cost than the rest of the world.

~~~
megablast
> I think where Australia suffers is in things like imported goods (often
> there's an extra 20-40% markup beyond the maybe 5% higher shipping cost.

Oh yeah, crazy that somewhere in the middle of nowhere is more expensive than
one that is not.

~~~
zxcmx
So sure it's hardly the whole logistics story (volume, volume, volume)... but
Australia is actually _closer_ to S.E Asia (where a large volume of e.g.
electronics goods are made or assembled) than the U.S.

------
angott
Around 2013, the Canadian government considered allowing Verizon to enter the
Canadian market by buying WIND Mobile, a small budget carrier which was
looking for foreign investors. They were faced with a huge fearmongering
campaign orchestrated by the big three carriers, with TV ads like this:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndQv6wwaNyM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndQv6wwaNyM)

Needless to say that Verizon backed out of the deal immediately.

~~~
microcolonel
Fun, if a bit rough, parody of that too.
[https://youtu.be/kC0uMKXsVM4](https://youtu.be/kC0uMKXsVM4)

When I was travelling in the U.S. a few weeks ago, I was able to buy a month's
unlimited data and North American calling and SMS on some random MVNO from
some random phone shop in middle of nowhere NY, including a new SIM and
activation, for less than one pays for a month with a cap here in Ontario.

Even the corrupt, cronyistic telecom arrangements in the U.S.† are
dramatically better than those in Canada.

† Not that the U.S. is particularly bad for this, by world standards.

------
dragosmocrii
Sadly, telecommunications (Rogers, Telus, Bell) and air transportation
(WestJet, Air Canada) are affected by oligopoly.

The situation in Quebec is slightly better thanks to a 4th telecom company,
Videotron, which brings mobile plans and internet prices lower than in the
rest of Canada.

It's funny how sometimes you'll see the exactly same "promotion" offerings
from the Robelus trio...

~~~
angott
It's not just telecommunications and air transport. Everywhere you look,
you'll find sectors where foreign competition is prohibited or strictly
managed in a way that keeps prices artificially high.

An example? Cheese. Under CETA (the Canada-EU free trade agreement), only
Canadian dairy producers can import cheese from the EU into Canada. These
producers will set its price artificially high as to match the price of
Canadian cheese plus a premium. This way, they ensure consumers will buy
Canadian cheese instead, as it appears to be cheaper.

It's just crazy how much lobbying can do.

~~~
martinald
Interesting. What would stop someone else setting up a new dairy producer and
import it without applying the crazy markup you mention?

~~~
angott
You need to be part of the supply management scheme, that is, you need to be
producing and supplying milk in Canada. So an import-only business wouldn't be
able to do it. I am not too sure on the details, but you can read more about
it here: [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-
comme...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-
commentary/as-ceta-looms-canada-braces-for-the-european-cheese-
invasion/article34647025/)

------
obtino
Pricing in Canada for mobile plans are downright awful! I can buy a plan from
Australia and use it there in Canada for cheaper with international roaming.

I remember only 10 years ago that Canadian telcos still considered moving
between state lines as ‘roaming’. I don’t know if it’s still the case.

~~~
angott
Some Canadian carriers are indeed still selling plans with local calls only.
In 2019. It's depressing.

~~~
aledalgrande
Yeah! Freedom. Paying CAD45 for 4GB, when in UK I had unlimited data for
GBP10.

Edit: did the low UK price offend someone?

~~~
polymatter
where did you get unlimited data for GBP10?

~~~
aledalgrande
GiffGaff, subsidiary of O2

------
LeonM
I recently had a discussion with a colleague about this:

Wouldn't it be much more efficient to start a telco with just 1 plan:
unlimited everything for a fixed price.

Literally just charge $30/month or so (I haven't done the math on what is
economically viable) for a flat fee plan. No strings attached, except maybe
rate limit after a substantial amount of data to prevent abuse (like
50gb/day).

Also: no contracts, let people cancel when they want. And don't sell devices,
just the SIM card.

This way you'll have:

\- no need for usage metering systems

\- very simple billing systems

\- minimal need for marketing

\- much less support calls (at least no angry customers due to unexpected
costs)

\- a very simple self-service portal

Now, I know I'm being naive here, it'll be next to impossible to start a
service like this because the physical infrastructure (the base stations) are
owned by the ancient behemoth telcos that have roamed the earth for past
century.

But just imagine how great a telco can be if you were just to trim the fat,
legacy and greed away.

~~~
nahtnam
I think this will happen with the new wave of telecom companies that rely on
satellites instead of ground towers (probably in the next decade or so)

~~~
nordsieck
> I think this will happen with the new wave of telecom companies that rely on
> satellites instead of ground towers

Maybe. If you look at the total available bandwidth of the satellite systems
vs their potential subscriber base, I think metering will probably happen at a
lower level than many people expect.

Perhaps they'll upgrade to much better radios in the future and the whole
issue will be resolved.

------
jasoneckert
For us living in Canada, we know we pay more than anyone else. And we're
constantly reminded of how the Bell, Telus and Rogers mafia keeps it that way.

~~~
gpm
I live in Canada and everyone says this, I don't think it's really that true.

I was in California for this summer - I paid about the same for a cell service
there as I do here...

All numbers in USD.

For a quick comparison of "premium" cell providers, an unlimited (15gb before
throttling) verizon wireless line is $70 per month [0]. A comparable Canadian
plan for Bell is $56 per month for 10gb before throttling, or $71 per month
for 20 gb before throttling.

Most people don't pay that much in reality, because of group discounts and so
on, but that applies in both cases.

The story is similar if we look at budget cell phone providers. Google Fi (US)
provides unlimited talk and text for $20gb/month with data for $10gb/month.
Freedom mobile (Canada) doesn't provide as much flexibility, and you have to
select your amount of data up front, but for any amount of data it's cheaper.
E.g. for 2gb it's $30/month instead of $40. [2]

[0]
[https://www.verizonwireless.com/plans/](https://www.verizonwireless.com/plans/)
\- change the number of lines to 1, this is 15gb data before throttling per
their faq [https://www.verizonwireless.com/support/verizon-plan-
unlimit...](https://www.verizonwireless.com/support/verizon-plan-unlimited-
faqs/)

[1] Remember to convert CAD to USD
[https://www.bell.ca/Mobility/Cell_phone_plans/Unlimited-
plan...](https://www.bell.ca/Mobility/Cell_phone_plans/Unlimited-plans)

[2] Click on "Freedom Plans" here, remember to convert CAD to USD
[https://www.freedommobile.ca/en-CA/plans](https://www.freedommobile.ca/en-
CA/plans)

~~~
jammygit
My bell plan is 95 CAD and gives 4GB/mo so I’m not sure where your numbers
came from. I must have missed that deal

~~~
msbarnett
That’s a terrible plan, you should definitely shop around. I’m paying $50 CAD
for “Unlimited” (8GB before throttling) with Freedom.

The problem with Freedom is that their network is tiny, but even Telus and
Rogers are both offering 10GB for $75 right now.

~~~
djmips
The problem with Freedom is there network isn't good enough so people try them
and go back to one of the others that has coverage where they travel.

~~~
msbarnett
In my experience Freedom is just fine if you live in a city with good coverage
and don't plan on spending much any time travelling through areas they don't
serve. But if you travel much locally it's a non-starter.

~~~
hi5eyes
In my experience, friends don't get signal in lecture halls in downtown
Toronto on Freedom

~~~
msbarnett
Huh, I haven't had any signal problems like that, but I'm not in Toronto, so I
don't know what the network's like there.

------
pm90
This is _insane_... how can the Canadian populace (and by extension, the
government) _not_ pass laws that forbid this nonsense? Its incredible that the
Canadian people are not up in arms over this shit.

------
bstar77
I lived in Canada for 2 years. The week I moved there is when T-Mobile started
offering free unlimited roaming in Canada. In my time in Canada I kept my
T-Mobile plan and didn't even have to get an unlimited plan since I already
had unlimited roaming. Since my bill was sent to a Washington address, I guess
I got in on some loophole. The best part was that my coverage was
phenominal... I had access to Telus, Wind and Bell in my area.

My prior trip to BC scouting for a home (a month earlier) cost me hundreds of
dollars in international calls and data usage. The phone plans in Canada are
shockingly bad. Being able to circumvent them was a godsend.

------
tpmx
I remember the spectacular pricing of around $10-15/MB in Canadian mobile
networks back around 2004-2005, just when 3G was getting started. (So it was
really 2G pricing.)

As a reference, typical European pricing was around $2/MB at the time, IIRC.
The US of course had their typical "plans" that made price comparisons hard.

It's fascinating that the network owners in Canada have managed to keep prices
so high, for so long.

We were launching a mobile J2ME-based service back then; I remember thinking
we'd get back to Canada when they'd got their data pricing in order but that
never happened...

~~~
Scoundreller
Canadians' situation is definitely an after-thought for app developers.

The NPR app keeps pre-buffering several hundred mb of audio when I start it
and chews through my data. Ugh.

And then there's the time my bank forced me to update their app and I wasn't
on wifi...

~~~
Scoundreller
$10/mb vs $2/mb...

Things have diverted more. French plans now have 25x the data for lower prices
than Canadian plans...

------
MrBuddyCasino
Time to post this again: [https://palladiummag.com/2019/09/19/how-not-to-
build-a-count...](https://palladiummag.com/2019/09/19/how-not-to-build-a-
country-canadas-late-soviet-pessimism/)

~~~
dang
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21101065](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21101065)

