

The Making Of OpenERP - nghopenerp
http://v6.openerp.com/node/1291

======
rufugee
We're actually looking into OpenERP for potential implementation at my company
(around 2500 employees). I've been doing a good bit of research. My findings
so far:

    
    
      The good:
      * Done in python. Easy to read.
      * Easy to extend or modify (done via python modules)
      * Supposedly can be extended/configured to a certain extent without code (field additions, etc)
      * Has a long list of modules available, and core modules which support my needed (accounting, finance, warehouse/supply chain, HR/Payroll)
      * Requires PostgreSQL...my database of choice.
      * Seems pretty stable...I haven't hit many bugs yet.
      * Fully open source under the AGPL...you get the entire product, unlike others such as OpenBravo and XTuple where you have to pay to get certain features. The flip side of this is that because it's AGPL, you have to release the source any modifications or modules you make unless you pay OpenERP for a subscription (and consequently, a different license)
     
      The bad:
      * The documentation is badly out of date. There are two versions...web-based and PDF. The web-based ones are more updated, but still out of date. Trying to learn as complex a system as an ERP with broken documentation is a very frustrating exercise. This is probably to biggest headache for me and it has significantly slowed our evaluation. It'd be at least a little better if I could pay for improved docs, but this is all they have...even paying customers are provided out-dated documentation.
      * Not many success stories in the US. I get the impression that it's more popular in Europe (OpenERP is out of Belgium).
      * Company is a bit unresponsive. I've contacted them and had very little successful communication with them, even though they have a US rep. If you read online, others seem to have had similar problems.
    

We're still going to make a go of it, because our current system is legacy and
leaves a lot to be desired. However, I think they could have a lot more
success by hiring tech writers and making sure the documentation stays up to
date.

~~~
sharoonthomas
* OpenERP is written in python (great) but the code is not readable. They do not follow any coding standards (like pep008) and don't even have a code review process. Give it a try [1]. At my company we say "Unlearn python before you start working on openerp".

* Yes OpenERP is easy to extend and modify and has a good modular architecture. However, the API is badly broken, have a look at an on_change event handler on the server side [2]. Think of modifying this in your extended module!

* Extending/Configuring without code is marketing speak. It sounds and looks great for a demo, but is impractical to be used in any business. For example, you modify how a product view looks like by changing it without code and it works, then next time you upgrade the product module, you will lose all the changes. It is also a quick recipe to making your ERP a 800lbs gorilla which cannot be maintained.

* They have a long list of modules. Most of the modules are crap uploaded by OpenERP partners who implemented some specific business case for a customer of theirs and is not generic. In most failed OpenERP implementations, the primary reason is almost always these extra modules which introduce dangerous bugs. I would not blame the developers alone, because OpenERP itself lacks a culture of testing and lacks sufficient tools to test the software. Be sure to evaluate every module with real world business cases. For example, purchasing in a different currency could be a feature on the "wishlist" [3]. And BTW.. they have a module which can order " sandwiches, pizzas, prepared meals, etc." for the 2500 employees :P (i am not joking [4])

* Postgresql - it's a great database, but badly misused in Open ERP [5] (it is from the core stock module which keeps track of your inventory). I will personally not trust any software which uses "distinct" [6] in a query as important as that. It also shows how OpenERP will not scale and how Open ERP developers lack the basic knowledge of SQL (not that they know better python).

* Open ERP is far from stable. Memory leaks are pretty common and add to that poorly written python. We have been maintaining production instances for a really long time and I would not find it a stable software.

* As for AGPL - it may not be the right license for an ERP. AGPL requires you to make the source of the software available as a downloadable link to all users of the software. Would you be willing to do that for all your employees ? And moving a bit more back - they switched overnight from GPL to AGPL claiming OpenERP SA owns all the copyright. Even if we assume they really do, you have an "open source" software which has no community contributions or you have a software which has a license which stands to be sued by any previous contributor some day.

* Success Stories: There may not be many actually. I personally know several of the companies in the openerp success cases page who do not use OpenERP anymore.

* Partners/Implementors of Open ERP: Here you will find the good, bad and the ugly. There are some great implementors who understand OpenERP well but may not necessarily be the partners in the spotlight. The gold, silver and ready partnership levels are just a matter of how much money you paid Open ERP SA (the company behind openerp). Chose your implementor very carefully. If they say, it has everything you want and works just like that - they are lying to you. I recommend reading a recent article a community member has written, it's pretty detailed and in french (but google translate seems to translate it well) [7].

And finally, the recent fuss about "sorry sap". It looks more like an
ambitious plan to have a negative social campaign about SAP and hope that SAP
would fork out a few million dollars to acquire them. Venture capitalists who
invested in OpenERP surely have an exit plan ?

[1] [http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~openerp/openobject-
server/trunk...](http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~openerp/openobject-
server/trunk/view/head:/openerp/osv/orm.py)

[2] [http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~openerp/openobject-
addons/6.1/v...](http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~openerp/openobject-
addons/6.1/view/head:/sale/sale.py#L1190)

[3]
[https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tryton/1kOND1_kGZ8/7MCU2V699...](https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tryton/1kOND1_kGZ8/7MCU2V699OoJ)

[4] <http://v6.openerp.com/node/1278>

[5] [http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~openerp/openobject-
addons/trunk...](http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~openerp/openobject-
addons/trunk/view/head:/stock/stock.py#L114)

[6] <http://www.thedwick.com/2005/11/how-distinct-hides-bad-sql/>

[7]
[http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=...](http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://people.via.ecp.fr/~alexis/openerp/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dalexis%2Bde%2Blattre%2Bopenerp%26hl%3Den%26tbo%3Dd&sa=X&ei=ZxPIUNrSF8ryrQeky4HYDQ&ved=0CGwQ7gEwBw)

~~~
nakkiel
I have an extensive experience as an OpenERP implementer (it's now over) and
agree with all of the above points.

By any mean, any communication coming from OpenERP (and partners) must be
taken with a grain of salt. It's not that it's PR stunt level but it's often
not very far.

That said, there's not better OpenSource alternative.

Also, don't be lured by the OpenSource term.

Also, disclaimer: Sharoon Thomas (if that's actually him) is involved in
Tryton (<http://www.tryton.org/en/>) which is an OpenERP fork. Better in some
ways, worse in other ways.

~~~
sharoonthomas
I should have put in a disclaimer myself (though my information is there on
the HN profile)

Anyway:

    
    
      * I work for Openlabs (http://openlabs.co.in)
      * I am a board member of the Tryton Software Foundation (http://foundation.tryton.org/) (The entity behind Tryton a fork of Open ERP)
      * But, all the above views and opinions are personal.

~~~
rufugee
Your comments, if accurate, are definitely concerning. So how is Tryton
different? Have you righted the wrongs that OpenERP has made? And if not, what
do you recommend as an alternative to OpenERP?

------
mbesto
Congrats on building a successful business. But the hyperbole is slightly
laughable. This company is nowhere near competing with the likes of SAP. I
recognize the ambition is there and it's great to have vision, but some of the
statements are way off.

The business model is interesting though. The days of the 90% profit margins
SAP/Oracle get on their maintenance combined with their outdated software
licensing model, lends itself to be highly disrupted. My money is currently on
Workday to be the market leader.

~~~
zurn
What would it take to "compete with the likes of SAP" in your view? I know
almost nothing about ERP but a close friend is a SAP consultant and provides
daily tales of super-Lovecraftian horrors so fantastic that it's hard to
imagine why people use it. In fact most stories make me think "it would be
orders of magnitude cheaper and more fun to implement that from scratch with
Python and some open source tools".

~~~
supercanuck
I am an SAP Consultant, and my .02 is that companies are so in love with their
back office processes such as creating purchase orders and sales orders, that
they want these things so highly customizable that it requires big package
software.

Most SAP horror stories are from customers who don't realize their ability to
process their Accounts Payable isn't a business core competency and is not
bringing them competitive advantage.

If customers come around on this, THEN the days of SAP will be numbered.

~~~
mbesto
A fellow SAP Consultant on HN...what a rarity! Hi!

Yes, basically this. Often what I found is that customers and vendors are
extremely complex in the way they do business. "But we want to pay in 34 days,
and if we pay on the 31st day at noon, we get a .005% discount relative to the
current exchange rate" Try doing that in your self-made python system, that
scales, has high-availability, disaster recovery, is available in 92
countries, and has an ecosystem of developers that come cheap from Asia.

What I actually find is that the people who are making the decision to
purchase the software want to make sure they have the most feature rich system
so when things do change, the "TCO" isn't impacted and they can fairly easily
satisfy the changing requirement. I believe half of enterprise software is
just deciding what the requirement is. (which is really no shocker to those is
non-enterprise tech)

~~~
_glass
Also fellow SAP consultant here.

SAP ERP is pretty stable. That's what customers are paying for. Material
management has been debugged for decades. Try to compete with that. A couple
of python scripts seem like a nightmare to me.

Yes, the code is horrible and ABAP itself is a nightmare, but the software as
product is very hard to tackle. The only way I can think of is a disruptive
move of Big Business in general, ie. small networked entities instead of
crusty old ones.

------
davidjgraph
Companies in Europe generally avoid the kind of hyperbole marketing that's
more common in the US, for a number of reasons. We find it a bit crass, we
don't like to blow our own trumpets too hard, we view what's termed "extending
the truth" as plain lying.

But, one of the most important reasons, as OpenERP have just proved, we're
often crap at it.

------
cs702
Wow, what a fun, inspiring post. Love it!

BTW, do not make the mistake of dismissing OpenERP as a small player in a
market dominated by giants like SAP. OpenERP is _asymmetric competition_ for
those giants! The company's goal is to _shrink_ the market, by taking away
more of revenue from competitors for every dollar the company earns.

As Josh Kopelman of First Round Capital says, "We love investing in
technologies and business models that are able to shrink existing markets. If
your company can take $5 of revenue from a competitor for every $1 you earn –
let's talk!"[1]

Congratulations to Fabien Pinckaers and the rest of the OpenERP team!

\--

[1] <http://redeye.firstround.com/2006/04/shrink_a_market.html>

------
imroot
I really think that Open Source ERP Software (Adempiere, OpenBravo, OpenERP,
and others) have the potential to be a great disruptive force in the land of
SAP, QAD, and others.

One of my best customers (in terms of contracting work) is an electrical motor
company who has an Oracle EBS and a QAD MFG/Pro install. When they expanded to
China, they didn't want to use either MFG/Pro or Oracle EBS for IP/InfoSec
reasons, so we customized Adempiere to fit their needs, and then generate data
that they could batch import nightly into their MFG/Pro and Oracle EBS
systems. Their CFO and CTO (at the time) were so impressed, they ended up
rolling out Adempiere out across their organization prior to being acquired.

This version of OpenERP looks much...smoother (with an emphasis on UI) than
the previous versions of their software; major kudos are in order. :)

~~~
emmelaich
Yes, they do. OpenERP might complex and buggy but my understanding is SAP,
Oracle EBS are as bad or worse and cost bazillions.

Look at this recent ERP disaster for the AirForce .. DEAMS.

One billion spent, then scrapped.

Dod Audit report: [edit] correct one here:
<http://www.dodig.mil/audit/reports/fy12/DODIG-2012-140.pdf>

News report:
[http://www.dailytech.com/USAF+Staff+Appalled+at+Wasting+1B+U...](http://www.dailytech.com/USAF+Staff+Appalled+at+Wasting+1B+USD+on+Failed+Software+Upgrade/article29382.htm)

------
davidbrent
Having worked with OpenERP for a few years, I can say it is an amazing piece
of software that does great things, but for a USA based company to be
considering it against SAP is laughable.

I would strongly recommend anyone considering using OpenERP in the US to find
a company currently running any version and ask them about their experience.

~~~
smiler
Add to the conversation - what's the issue for US companies using OpenERP?

~~~
davidbrent
1\. Financial reports (General Ledger, Cash Flow, Profit and Loss, etc...)
that US businesses rely on, leave a lot to be desired and/or need a lot of
custom modifications to work. These things need to work perfectly in an ERP
system, and sometimes the response from OpenERP SA seemed lackadaisical as if
partially correct reports for the US companies would be OK.[1]

2\. Things like reconciling bank accounts and taxes are geared towards a
European system that seems much different than ours, and as a result cause a
lot of problems in a US implementations. Again, OpenERP doesn't have a
localized US package that addresses these issues in a concrete way. Searching
for help, you'll probably be referred to half finished module, with 0
documentation that still requires a lot of work to be ready for production.

3\. On the stock and manufacturing side of things the system works much better
in my opinion. And with the right amount of work done up front, the they both
offer flexibility while following a strict business logic[2] set in place at
the time of implementation, that they can do some amazing things for a sales /
fulfillment side of the organization. The reporting and automation that
OpenERP can provide on this side is really awesome.

[1]. I am not an accountant. [2]. It is a ton of work defining a business's
process in the terms of an ERP. Sometimes I felt like OpenERP got blamed for a
company poorly defining their process (if they even had one) So be wary of
that when looking at forums and things...

~~~
fheopenerp
Concerning financial reports, OpenERP 6.1 introduced the ability to modify
financial reports (hierarchy, order, content, sign,...) directly from the
configuration interface namely in Accounting > Configuration > Financial
accounting > Financial reports. No need for custom development to get the
reports that US businesses use.

About bank reconciliation, what is the issue?

------
kyllo
Congratulations to you, OpenERP is an incredibly ambitious project of
potentially enormous utility. I can't think of a bigger source of waste and
deadweight loss in the corporate IT world than the slow, stagnant, user-
unfriendly ERP software that huge companies like Oracle and SAP spend millions
of dollars selling to other huge companies who don't really understand what
they're buying. I have struggled with it for years and often daydreamed of
writing my own ERP suite to sell to small businesses. Kudos to you for
actually doing it!

------
icebraining
Oh! The software I work on, on HN!

We're porting our modules (infamous plug: I work for ThinkOpen Solutions) and
v7 is definitively a big improvement in terms of the interface, including
usability.

The core seems to be more stable, both in terms of regular use as well as API,
and the functionality seems better integrated. The new messaging system is
definitively nice.

The release notes for 7.0 are worth a read if you're interested:
<http://v6.openerp.com/node/1272>

------
ececconi
Uh oh, the site isn't loading now possibly due to the increased traffic. How's
a business going to trust their mission-critical apps to be hosted on a site
that's having trouble with the HN unveiling?

Great idea, but I don't see an untested open-source application disrupting SAP
or Oracle anytime soon. Workday is even closer to that. The devil is in the
details and even small errors in HR, such as vacation balances being off by
percentage of an hour... or invoices not being penny accurate will test this
product.

------
dfamorato
Well... I worked at a company that tried to implement OpenERP for managing the
Back-End operations of an E-Commerce business. Too many bus to fix, even on
core. Money that was supposed to be used in new functionality development was
spent paying partners to fix issues we found.

Moved to Tryton ( <http://www.tryton.org/en/> ), which is a lot more pythonic,
a lot more concise and follows standards, including PEP8 and company still
Tryton today.

Financials and forecasting with OpenERP can be a mess, specially when you get
users that are used with quickbooks.

Check Tryton ( <http://www.tryton.org/en/> ). I am sure you will like it.
There are a bunch of modules that also install as python modules, virtualenv
support, PostgresSQL, clear development roadmap and much more. Also, thre is
this magento integration that is pretty nice ->
<https://imagento.openlabs.co.in/>

------
mtgred
A demo of the new version is available here:
[https://www.openerp.com/saas_master/demo?lang=en_US&modu...](https://www.openerp.com/saas_master/demo?lang=en_US&module=mail)

------
debacle
If this is the piece of software I remember, SAP has nothing to worry about.

~~~
pinky07
You should test it again, it changed so much in the past months:
[https://www.openerp.com/saas_master/demo?lang=en_US&modu...](https://www.openerp.com/saas_master/demo?lang=en_US&module=mail)

~~~
debacle
It does look vastly different. The next time a client comes around looking for
an ERP system, I'll vet it again.

------
conradfr
Funny, I remember these people eating their sandwiches when the photo was
taken, the view from my desk is on these steps / garden, and we wondered who
they were ;)

------
meistro
It looks much better than the previous iteration. One thing I don't understand
is why businesses reveal a product like this before making it completely
available. For those who don't already use it, how many are actually going to
check openerp.com in ten days? It seems like the spotlight is wasted with
these sort of unveilings. That being said, I might, if I remember.

~~~
lemieux
The catch is that you have to share their link to have access to the demo.

EDIT : you need to go on this page and share <http://www.sorrysap.com/>

EDIT 2 : or try
[https://demo1.openerp.com/?ts=1355245099781#page=0&limit...](https://demo1.openerp.com/?ts=1355245099781#page=0&limit=&view_type=list&model=hr.holidays&action=422)

~~~
davidjgraph
Or you could just ignore that and use the link you end up with directly,
<https://demo2.openerp.com/#action=114>.

------
fromthesouth
I tried version 6 a few month ago because the small company I work for wanted
to buy an ERP and I wanted to show them the ones available. I would like to
warn anyone trying to use OpenERP. It's a mess, install it and try for
yourself for a week or two before deciding on going for it. It's full of bugs.
Their forum sucks, the community is made of people that don't want to share
their solutions because they want to sell them, but that backfires cause I
needed to show it to management but couldnt because all the errors. All that
javascript interface is slow and as soon as you try to do something a bit out
of the expected it starts giving lots of error for which you wont find a
solution searching on the web. It's a crappy software they try to sell and
rape you later with tech support.

------
rushabh
[shameless plug]

Have been developing ERPNext (<https://erpnext.com>) on similar lines. Its no
where near OpenERP but would love to get some critical comments.

------
jakhoeblal
The "Sorry SAP" campaign is somewhat unbalanced comment. It shows for sure how
little OpenERP founder (& others) knows about SAP ERP. However, I am convinced
that OpenERP is a perfect ERP solution for small SME's. And you know what?
Most of the companies we (www.sme-erp-it-consulting.com) focus on, are SME!
Currently we implemented, for many Thai SME, this OpenERP, with success. And
we are working on some BIG thing to come. Watch our Blogs or just Google
(Thailand SME ERP), to find us.

------
sschueller
Sorry but there are still too many issues. For example setting a recurring
invoice is crazy complex.

Also still no paypal integration, Google checkout, stripe, paymil etc.

~~~
melvinmt
> still no paypal integration, Google checkout, stripe, paymil etc.

Not sure what you're aiming at but ERPs are not magento plugins.

~~~
sschueller
I want to be able to send a paypal links or alternate payment methods in my
invoices. Like freshbooks does.

~~~
jacques_chester
Then why not use Freshbooks? Or another SME account SaaS like Xero?

------
sctechie
Took me all of 30 seconds to break your demo website. Started throwing
unhandled 'get_title' javascript exceptions at me non-stop.

You honestly expect me to make a professional recommendation for software I
can't even show the demo for? SAP sucks, we all know but I fail to see how
your product sucks any less except for the price tag. Is that your pitch? We
suck just like SAP but for less money.

~~~
icebraining
Hi! I'm not from OpenERP S.A., but we're a partner company.

Sorry you have problems with it. Can you tell me what browser did you use? I
ask you because OpenERP 7.0 doesn't support IE 8 or lower, unless they have
the Chrome Frame installed.

~~~
sctechie
Hi. I'm on HN. I'm running the latest google chrome.

I'm not going to go back and open up the developer tools to see which part of
the buggy javascript UI crashed. I will say again though that the UI was
throwing 'unhandled exceptions'. Do I really need to defend myself here? When
is it ever a good idea for a user of a piece of software; especially ERP
software which by it's very nature will interact with non-technical users
constantly, to ever see an unhandled exception. Come on.

Just for fun. I went back to their website: demo1.openerp.com. It takes 2
seconds to crash their websites by interacting with it. Just click on their
navigation links on the top of the page quickly.

Here is a link: <http://imgur.com/fp8oW>

This is an easily reproducible problem. Come on.

~~~
rachelbythebay
You got more than I did. I just got a stack trace after clicking the [Create]
button.

    
    
        OpenERP Server Error
        Client Traceback (most recent call last):
          File "/home/odoo/source/web/addons/web/http.py", line 195, in dispatch
            response["result"] = method(self, **self.params)
          File "/home/odoo/source/web/addons/web/controllers/main.py", line 724, in create
            params['create_admin_pwd'])
          File "/home/odoo/source/web/addons/web/session.py", line 28, in proxy_method
            result = self.session.send(self.service_name, method, *args)
          File "/home/odoo/source/web/addons/web/session.py", line 95, in send
            raise xmlrpclib.Fault('AccessDenied', str(e))
        
        
        Server Access denied.

~~~
sctechie
Technically, you got more than I did. =)

------
polyfractal
Can someone explain the "OpenERP AGPL + Private Use" license? I don't really
understand how that works. How can they selectively make modules private/not
under the AGPL?

~~~
sharoonthomas
OpenERP has a bunch of license crap (read violations). They switched from
GPLv3 to AGPL overnight claiming that "OpenERP SA" (the company behind
OpenERP) owns the entire codebase. Looking at it from many sides:

* the product is NOT open source if a single company owns the entire copyright ? why will they not call it proprietary tomorrow ? (they don't have a contributor agreement either)

* AGPL is the wrong license to have for an ERP system. In addition to all its ambiguity, AGPL software "must offer an ... opportunity for all users interacting with your Program through a computer network to request immediate transmission by HTTP of the complete source code of your modified version or other derivative work" [1]. Does that mean that 2500 users of the software in your company should be able to download the source code of your ERP to comply ?

For me, the license switch was to make the software impractical to use for any
serious business and offer a "private use" license at a price as a vendor lock
in.

[1] <http://www.affero.org/oagf.html>

~~~
rufugee
Not sure I agree with you here. The AGPL keeps the code completely open and
free to use...the only thing it does is insure that you have to pay OpenERP
for a commercial license _if you want to keep any customizations or custom
modules you've developed private_.

What's wrong with that? First, I'm free to use the code at no charge to me.
I'm even free to customize it as much as I'd like...I just have to make a link
available to those customizations that my users can access. I have no problem
personally doing this...none of our users would have any interest in the code
we develop. If I do decide downstream that I'd like to develop a private
module, I can approach OpenERP and subscribe. I've already received pricing,
and their cost for 1000 users annually is cheaper than what I pay for our
commercial ERP for 100 users.

The way I see it, the AGPL insures that OpenERP (the company) gets their due
for giving away the code. Nothing more. Seems fair.

------
BUGHUNTER
Unfortunately there is no support for BPMN 2. If you are working in "Business
IT" and do not know about BPMN 2, please wake up, thanks.

------
withinthreshold
I don't get it, how do i export, for example, some account's journal entries
to Excel, or the list of fixed assets?

------
EugeneOZ
Competition is always good. But... Why interfaces are SO ugly?

~~~
yock
If you're competing with SAP, then an ugly interface is a must-have.

~~~
smacktoward
It's how enterprise customers know you are Serious Business (TM).

------
ciupicri
Though where is the ERP software for mom and pop shops?

~~~
icebraining
If they're willing to invest a little in training, I'd say OpenERP is a fine
solution. There's no recurrent licensing to pay and it runs just fine on any
decent computer. As long as they don't need custom development or third-party
modules, they shouldn't even need much technical support.

~~~
ciupicri
I've looked for training here in Romania, I couldn't find anything clear on
the topic: what is provided and for what price.

~~~
icebraining
I don't know if OpenERP S.A. has an office in Romania, but their Romanian
partners will probably be glad to help you: <http://v6.openerp.com/ed-
classified/tid/97>

~~~
ciupicri
I've already checked them: * <http://www.erpsystems.ro/> -> this is a demo *
<http://www.apersis.ro/openerp.html> -> under construction *
<http://www.openerpsaas.com/en/package-details> (from Elastoffice) -> it's not
very clear to me if they provide training * <http://www.openerp-romania.ro/>
-> just a "contact us" form * <http://www.intellisys.ro> -> couldn't find
anything about OpenERP

------
joyinsky
It's hard to write something as crappy in Python as OpenERP.

