
China’s Silicon Valley Dream Bumps Against Reality - raleighm
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-09-16/china-s-dream-of-a-silicon-valley-clone-needs-a-reality-check
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nbhuik
This is a very generic article. I would say made up even. China has a ton of
problems. Unfortunately most Hong Kong based analysts spend more time partying
in Hong Kong than in southern China. If the west wants to have a long term
chance against what is happening in China we really have to stop with this
feel good journalism.

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quonn
What do you mean by „have a chance“?

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nbhuik
This is obviously a long discussion, but in summary the world is changing and
if one wants to have a say in that new world one can't pretend that it isn't
happening. China is working on all fronts while the west is coming up with
excuses why it doesn't matter.

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exelius
Jack Ma summed it up pretty well — the US spent something close to $15
trillion fighting wars over the last century. China has been taking that money
and investing it in building future economic advantage instead because it
believes the wars of the future will be economic rather than kinetic.

Who do you think has a brighter future?

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tcbawo
There is waste and fraud everywhere, including China. You can also find
anecdotal evidence everywhere. It's impossible to piece this together into a
singular narrative.

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luckydata
I think it's fair to say fraud is pervasive in China in a way that's not in
many other western countries. Every time I have to do anything with China
businesswise I'm reminded of that reality.

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janekm
I think the article could have benefited from some info on the efforts the
Shenzhen government has been making on addressing the concerns raised,
including setting up the Hong Kong University Hospital in Shenzhen branch and
the giant "Qianhai Shenzhen-Hong Kong Modern Service Industry Cooperation
Zone", a free trade area in Shenzhen with corporate law based on Hong Kong's
and very attractive tax benefits.

Whether that's enough to assuage Hong Kong'ers cynicism is a different matter,
of course ;)

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baybal2
A thing about healthcare in China: while it is expensive on average, some
serious interventions can be up to 20 times cheaper (cancer surgeries, complex
fractures and soft tissue trauma, etc.) Emergency medicine is priced predatory
though, in bigger cities, appendicitis can cost you $15k+.

I myself don't understand American obsession with healthcare, they are free to
go anywhere in the world, and it will be cheaper for you than back home.

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abrichr
I don’t have numbers handy, but IIRC a startling number of Americans have
never left the country. It’s prohibitively expensive and simply out of reach
for many (most?) people.

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Spearchucker
Flying domestic in the US is crazy expensive when compared with budget
airlines in Europe, where (if you look out for it) you can get a flight from
London to Rome for £40.

International from/to the US is pretty much the same as everyone else in the
world pays. This is based on my experience paying for and flying to 32
countries, many more than once.

My understanding about why Amercians don't fly international is the same as
the UK used to be - not many even have a passport, and even less have an
interest in cultures other than their own. For these last two comments I have
no data, only hearsay.

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dx87
I don't think it's necessarily that we have less interest in cultures besides
our own, it's more that we usually plan vacations around wanting to see
something, like a national monument, or do something, like party at Mardi
Gras. Combine that mindset with the fact that the USA is so big, and there
isn't much of a reason to ever leave the country because you'll never be able
to see everything it has to offer, plus you don't have to pay to fly across
the ocean. And yeah, I personally don't know anyone with a passport, it seems
pretty rare here. I think one reason might be because of our neighboring
countries. Until a couple of years ago, Canada didn't require a passport or
visa when crossing our border, and Mexican border towns have been viewed as
unsafe for as long as I can remember, so people didn't really go to Mexico
except by cruise ships.

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sbierwagen
Note that it costs $145 to get a U.S. passport now

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astura
Amortized that's only $14.50/year, and renewals cost less.

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vonnik
The title of this article was poorly chosen. China's "Silicon Valley dream",
if it has one, is much larger than economic development among the cities of
HK, Shenzhen, Macao and Guangzhou. Problems linking those cities, which is
what this article is about, are unlikely to block technological development in
the country. The tech hubs in Shanghai, Beijing and other fast-moving Chinese
cities aren't addressed here. Moreover, even if it's hard to link those
southern Chinese cities, each one of them is huge, and booming in different
ways. Shenzhen along houses more than 12 million people, while the entire SF
Bay Area is around 7 million.

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baybal2
My opinion, state of things now:

1\. Company registration - rules for company registration for all kinds of
incentive zones keep changing _monthly_. That's insane.

2\. Property protection: state has to give assurance that the 2009 style purge
will not happen again

3\. Personal safety - Shenzhen beats most cities in US on that, at the price
of having a police post every 100m

4\. Freedom of movement - you have to apply for 3 visas beforehand HK visa,
China visa, Macau visa. APEC card works as a universal visa, but god know how
one gets it. Last time I applied, the chamber of commerce said it is first
time they heard of it.

5\. Lifestyle - Shenzhen is one of world's most livable cities already, a head
above of Silicon Valley

6\. How much money you can make - not enough for somebody working in SV,or
London already. A senior engineering cadre nets 25k-30k CNY per month. Cost of
living, 7.5k CNY for a bachelor, even if you party hard. So, in the end you
get around 3k usd to spare at current CNY price. I don't see much Americans,
but for Eastern Europeans... 9 out 10 white people you see in factory
districts speak Russian, or some other Slavic language. Lots of Indians, and
Africans as well.

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seanmcdirmid
> Shenzhen is one of world's most livable cities already, a head above of
> Silicon Valley

Why do you claim so? I’ve never been to SZ, but if it’s anything like
Guangzhou or even Hong Kong, I don’t see how the quality of life there is
obviously better than Silicon Valley, especially if you are into outdoor
activities and dislike heat and humidity.

Or so you mean SZ has much better traffic than SV? Even that I would doubt.
Better air quality? SZ is good for China, probably worse than SV. So what are
the metrics for “most livable city?”

> A senior engineering cadre nets 25k-30k CNY per month. Cost of living, 7.5k
> CNY for a bachelor, even if you party hard.

Those numbers are laughable even for Beijing, I hear SZ is way more expensive
still. 30k/month is junior engineer territory, and you are lucky if your one
bedroom apartment is only 7500/month in rent.

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PakG1
7.5k for a bachelor is not enough for a bachelor partying hard. Paying 5k for
a 60 square meter 1 bedroom apartment right now in Shekou in Shenzhen, and
that's on the cheap end of the scale without living way out in the boonies;
searched long and hard for this deal.

That would leave me 2.5k for other expenses per month. That's about 83 RMB per
day? Yeah, I think I could do that if I have zero partying and ate only the
cheapest food each day. baybal2's numbers are way off. Many people do this,
but many of them are doing it because they're not making nice engineer
salaries. The ones I know and meet seem to like the finer things in life.

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gpetukhov
I live in north Nanshan and spend about that much per day on food and I am not
very frugal and don't cook myself. If you want the cheapest food it would be
about 15 rmb per meal or less, so 83 rmb per day is a very decent ration,
unless you only eat western food of course.

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snaky
By the way, is that '9 out 10 white people you see in factory districts speak
Russian' true?

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gpetukhov
Not sure about "factory" districts, but overall there is a lot of Russians,
Ukrainians and Serbs here.

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bitxbit
I really don’t understand the reasons behind building a sea bridge connecting
HK and Macau. I can’t help but think this is a project drawn up by some
inexperienced policy maker. Other than it being a grand landmark public
project, and ignoring cost-benefit, can someone tell me about the engineering
aspects of it with all the obvious natural challenges?

Edit: appears the project was delayed since 2016 due to various issues.

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toinetoine1
Before the bridge the only way to get from HK to Macau/Zhuhai by land was 4+
hours. Now it's 20 mins. There other bridges being built further up the delta
(like the Shenzhen-ZhongShan bridge which will cut a 2 hour drive to 10 mins).

You mentioned the cost-benefit. Making is easier for a region of 60 million
people to get around obviously has a very high benefit.

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bitxbit
Well, think most people were taking the ferry between the two cities (~1 hour
ride). In addition, it appears there's a low daily cap in terms of the number
of cars from HK that can enter Macau? Also has Macau developed into something
other than a gambling destination? I wasn't initially doubting the cost-
benefit (though at first blush I am starting to wonder), but the engineering
challenges of this incredible project.

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beerlord
China has an advantage that it has no large ethnic underclasses, and minimal
welfare state.

But the country would have been undoubtedly better off if the Nationalists won
the civil war - and the place ended up like Taiwan.

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khuey
It's far from obvious that a Republic of China that wins the Chinese Civil War
would have developed, reformed, and democratized in the same way that the rump
ROC on Taiwan has.

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gumby
I'm not sure what Silicon Valley has to do with this apart from headline
clickbait. The TL;DR is "China is trying to integrate HK, Macau and the rest
of the coastal economy into a single conurbation like Kansai or BOS-WAS but
it's hard"

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pytyper2
Slow cooked Chinese food is always better.

