
What Foods Are Banned in Europe but Not Banned in the U.S.? - NinjaX
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/28/well/eat/food-additives-banned-europe-united-states.html
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wcoenen
The article mentions growth hormones. Although banned throughout the EU in
1988, they are likely still used illegally. Notably, the "hormone maffia"
murdered Belgian inspector Karel Van Noppen in 1995.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Karel_Van_Noppen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Karel_Van_Noppen)

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freedomben
Anytime we talk about "banning" something I prefer a very conservative
approach (conservative as in let's not ban things unless we are _really_
sure). We are constantly learning new things that upend what we used to accept
as science regarding nutrition and how the human body works. I think we do
ourselves a disservice sometimes by banning things that we don't understand
(and sometimes we _think_ we understand but really don't).

That said, there is something wrong with our food. We have had an explosion in
auto-immune disorders over the last few decades that is accelerating.
Allergies to common foods are increasing rapidly as well. An allergist that I
see has recently starting adding citrus tests to her test panel, because
citrus is suddenly (and for unknown reasons) becoming a big problem. I don't
know what's wrong, but I do hope we figure it out.

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DRW_
>Anytime we talk about "banning" something I prefer a very conservative
approach (conservative as in let's not ban things unless we are really sure).
We are constantly learning new things that upend what we used to accept as
science regarding nutrition and how the human body works. I think we do
ourselves a disservice sometimes by banning things that we don't understand
(and sometimes we think we understand but really don't).

If you aren't sure, then I don't think I get the logic on the default being
"okay, feed it to your kids!". Surely it makes more sense to be cautious about
the things we ingest..

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freedomben
> _Surely it makes more sense to be cautious about the things we ingest.._

Completely agree

> _If you aren 't sure, then I don't think I get the logic on the default
> being "okay, feed it to your kids!"._

False dichotomy. I don't think the choices are either "ban it" or "okay, feed
it to your kids!" There's a middle ground there that I think makes more sense.

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skh
What’s the middle ground you are referrring to? Don’t feed it to kids but feed
to adults? If you don’t know something is safe for consumption then it
shoulnd’t be sold, right?

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freedomben
Getting into specific policy prescriptions is tempting the fate of Godwin's
Law, but I don't believe it's wise or even possible to regulate every single
molecule that gets sold for consumption.

Constant evaluation, testing, and liability for people/companies that
knowingly use dangerous or harmful ingredients can go a long way here. In fact
often times it's the only way broader datasets can be gathered. The market
provides a strong incentive here as well not to poison your customers.

I also think that education, including warnings on packages, and then letting
adults make their own decisions, is a good way to go. One state that I know of
recently banned a pest control chemical because some idiot sprayed his dog's
food bowl with it. The dog later died. The state's knee jerk response of
banning it is counter-productive IMHO. I've been using it for DIY pest control
for many years and it is one of the most effective I know of, and _when used
as directed_ is perfectly safe (don't spray anything that will be ingested
with it, such as dog food bowls, gardens, etc).

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skh
_The market provides a strong incentive here as well not to poison your
customers._

The history of corporate malfeasance and the desire of people to optimize for
short term gain versus long term gain indicates that your view is not
supported by reality.

For example see the cigarette industry and how it deliberately made its
products addictive and more dangerous.

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freedomben
The history of corporate responsibility and the desire of many other people to
optimize for long term viability and survival does indicate that my view is
supported by reality.

Your implication that because one or several persons (or companies) did
something wrong, therefore all of mankind is bad/evil is fallacious. Because a
neighbor of mine is a thief or a murderer, does not make all neighbors thiefs
and murderers. We hold him accountable for his actions.

~~~
skh
I suggest you have things backwards. There are lots of examples of
corporations and people doing the right thing when incetivized by market
forces. There are lots of examples of corporation and people doing the wrong
thing when incentivized by market forces. The conjunction of these two facts
ought to lead you to the conclusion that we should not rely on the market for
incentivization against corporate malfeasance and wrong doing. Society, in the
form of government, needs to be vigilant against wrongdoing and in the case of
food we ought not rely on market forces to prevent bad actors from unleashing
their bad intentions on society. Your view is not based in reality because
history has shown that corporations sometimes do bad things in response to
market forces. So relying on market forces to regulate corporate behavior is
not a good idea.

Your view would make sense if market forces always lead to companies not
wanting to poison their clients. But this isn’t the case.

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freedomben
Ok, I think we're actually a lot closer to agreement than it would seem. I
think you've zeroed in on the the last sentence in my paragraph:

> _Constant evaluation, testing, and liability for people /companies that
> knowingly use dangerous or harmful ingredients can go a long way here. In
> fact often times it's the only way broader datasets can be gathered. The
> market provides a strong incentive here as well not to poison your
> customers._

as my one prescription, when in fact it is not. It's just a piece of the
puzzle. In fact I agree with this statement of yours:

> _Society, in the form of government, needs to be vigilant against wrongdoing
> and in the case of food we ought not rely on market forces to prevent bad
> actors from unleashing their bad intentions on society._

I also may have over-read into your reply that you don't believe the market
has any ability to disincentivize bad behavior, which after reading your
latest reply may not be the case. Please correct me if I'm not summarizing
your point accurately, but it seems you agree that markets do incentivize good
behavior, but that it isn't perfect and therefore governments should have a
role in ensuring people (and corporations) don't misbehave. If that's an
accurate summary of your position, then I agree with that. We may disagree on
what optimal intervention levels look like, but we could at least agree on the
broader point :-)

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nugator
As a European I'm interested in knowing what most Americans thinks about this
(their food has additives that is forbidden in Europe). Is there a feeling of
Europeans being too cautious or would you like to have the same rules?

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lj3
I would love to if the US had the same food quality laws that European
countries have. By HN standards, I'm a right wing nutcase and am in favor of
as small a government as we can stand, but our food is killing us.

Bread has sugar in it. If you want bread without sugar in it, you must either
pay more for the organic stuff or make it yourself. If you want bread without
any additives or preservatives at all, you must buy your wheat from outside
the country. Wheat in the US is fortified with iron and vitamin B by law.

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tptacek
"Bread with sugar in it" isn't banned in Europe.

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kyriakos
I believe the difference is that you can buy bread without sugar without
resorting to overpriced organic bread.

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guidedlight
Interestingly, Kinder Surprise chocolate eggs are banned in the US but sold
almost everywhere else.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_Surprise](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_Surprise)

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jacquesm
After 30 billion of them sold you'd think that if they were really dangerous
we'd have noticed by now.

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knbknb
In Europe, the food industry can legally apply lots of food-altering measures
from a large bag of tricks. To name a few: Foaming up stuff, adding water to
add weight; using cheap low quality substitutes; removing bitter ingredients
from decaying fruit by "steam-cleaning"; enzymes in the bread dough ...

In 2018 or 2017 they removed the import ban for high fructose corn syrup from
the USA into the EU. Now HFCS making its way into many supermarket products.

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amai
Please cite your sources.

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chrisseaton
And of course some foods are banned in the US but not Europe.

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nugator
Do you have any examples? (Genuinely interested)

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NullPrefix
Kinder chocolate eggs, because they have toys that are surrounded by food. The
toy is at risk of being eaten.

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NullPrefix
edit: they sell Kinder joy, but not Kinder surprise. Joy has the egg cut in
half and the halves are packaged separately.

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mariuolo
They left out chlorinated chicken.

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Fnoord
M&Ms use natural colouring in EU, but artificial in US, even though the
artificial ones are deemed more safe. Thank you, E-number hysteria.

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yellowapple
Wait, what's the problem with Red 40? Besides it being bug-juice, if course.

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dwyer
Anything with e. coli I presume.

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adamnemecek
This is such a great example of market not regulating itself due to
information asymmetry.

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tpush
So, none of the things banned or severely restricted by the EU are actually
proven to be harmful.

I'm not sure if I prefer the more liberal approach by the US or the more
conservative one by the EU. In general I'm in favor of only banning things
when they're proven to cause harm, so innovation is not stifled because of
some nonsense hysteria.

Since this is concerning my health though, I'm really unsure.

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madengr
Well it could be worse. Ever look at the label on a food product imported from
China? For instance, dried noodles or Old Lady sauce?

Here is how to make an artificial egg:

[https://youtu.be/bcgH6fgedoA](https://youtu.be/bcgH6fgedoA)

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simplecomplex
That’s a hoax. China does not have a problem with fake eggs made from plastic.
Chicken and eggs are a staple of Chinese diet, and both incredibly cheap and
plentiful throughout the country.

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loopycode
MSG it such a shame it's found everywhere.

IT'S A health hazard.

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rubatuga
Your comment is a health hazard. Monsodium glutamate is simply the salt form
of the glutamate amino acid (Glu), an amino acid found in virtually every
protein or meat that you eat.

