
Low Doses of LSD Acutely Increase BDNF Blood Plasma Levels in Healthy Volunteers - InInteraction
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acsptsci.0c00099
======
nicoffeine
Low doses may also prevent Alzheimers from progressing.[1][2] Ayahuasca/DMT[3]
and psilocybin[4] may have similar effects.

It's fascinating that a monthly visit to your local shaman may still be more
safe and effective for depression, anxiety, and cognitive decline than
anything western medicine has been able to produce.

[1]
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/abbierosner/2020/02/21/microdos...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/abbierosner/2020/02/21/microdosed-
lsd-may-finally-be-the-breakthrough-for-alzheimers-disease/#6925566b53a8)

[2]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6463489/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6463489/)

[3]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6343205/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6343205/)

[4] [https://www.beingpatient.com/could-psychedelics-help-
treat-a...](https://www.beingpatient.com/could-psychedelics-help-treat-
alzheimers/)

~~~
bb88
It is also true that when we could have been exploring psychedelics back in
the 60/70's, but they were made illegal mostly as a political backlash to the
counterculture -- thus pretty much stifling the last 50 years of research on
them.

"Punching-the-hippy" politics aside, the political leaders told us there was
nothing beneficial ever about those drugs, and we typically believed them,
even lumping scientists who wanted to study them in the same camp as the "UFO
Cranks".

So the question is, is it western medicine that's the issue, or the lack of
science based politics?

~~~
Enginerrrd
Honestly a fair number of studies have been done and the problem with all that
stuff is there's always been a relatively high rate of complications and
adverse outcomes. Responses/experiences are hard to predict.

I get that in some people it can be a wonderful thing, nearly a miracle cure.
I've done plenty of psychedelics myself, but I always find the insistence by
proponents that any harm done is the fault of the user ("poor preparation",
"not the right setting", "inexperienced guide", etc, etc) to be really
disingenuous and unscientific. Like, there are legit some people that really
won't respond well to this as therapy.

Now, conventional pharmaceuticals and therapy have the same issues, but the
reality is psychedelic therapies have never been a clear favorite.

~~~
evo_9
I don't disagree with this; I do wonder however if this is more related to the
black-market nature of this drug. Aka, inconsistent 'manufacturing' processes,
etc. Meaning if it were legal and had a process in place to assure the correct
chemical composition, if that would still happen.

Thinking about this further - have bad trips been observed in clinical studies
where the the LSD was created in a controlled, ideal lab setting?

Would be interesting to know if this was or wasn't the case; could indicate a
bad trip is an unavoidable potential side-effect, or if it is a specific
reaction to poorly created LSD.

~~~
saiya-jin
I've seen really bad trips from literally just weed, the same I smoked and was
as A-OK as possible. I mean really bad stuff, like blood flowing down the
walls around us, they are coming for us panick etc.

Its not the substance purity, but some people are a mess, and sometimes they
don't realize/admit it. Some become mess with frequent use. Those definitely
shouldn't play with stronger stuff, whatever that is for them.

------
kaikai
They don’t break it down in the abstract, but BDNF is brain-derived
neurotrophic factor, which is associated with neuron growth and long term
memory.

~~~
AstralStorm
As well as certain cancers and many other things. Neuroscience is taking but
baby steps, it's currently in the XVII century equivalent stage of
development.

An interesting thing to know is how seizures and mental illnesses interact,
for instance. Yes, we're talking ancient early XX century "connect a brain to
electric current" kind of thing but at better precision. Electroshock therapy.
We know so very little here.

It could well be that psychedelics and this share the mechanism of action. Or
not.

------
dvduval
For me, I don't believe I really ever saw anything that was different than
reality, but the attention to my senses was heightened. It was a new curiosity
about everything I saw or heard. if you wave your hand in front of your face
there's a trail behind it. This sort of thing is heightened. I remember going
to a racquetball court and it seems like they were many balls in the court
when there actually there was only one. I went on top of a mountain and looked
down at the trees below and it was almost like the trees were vibrating with
life. I remember the sound of super Mario jumping giving me the giggles
because the sound was completely different and interesting and it reverberated
through the room. So there is a certain curiosity that is derived from the
senses. That was my experience

~~~
__blockcipher__
Are you talking about a full dose? I’ve had the effect of watching a kid throw
a ball on a beach and it split into 8 balls and then merged back into one.

But such effects are only present when you take like 100ug, not the few
micrograms that would constitute a microdose.

~~~
dvduval
The strongest effect I had was from a liquid dose, and for a minute or two I
had what I would characterize as a white out. Everything in my field of vision
turned white and I couldn't move very well. My friends were worried about me
but it only lasted a short time. I guess it could be said that because I saw
multiple balls in the racquetball court that I did see something that was
different from reality. But unfortunately when I was taking it we were not so
scientific

~~~
__blockcipher__
I accidentally dosed myself in the middle of the night once after turning LSD
crystal into ethanol:water:lsd solution and being careless at some point in
the process.

Those damn mucous membranes, they really get ya. Must have touched my lips
absentmindedly.

Before I realized, I was in bed trying to sleep. Restless, tossing and
turning. Eventually started feeling that unmistakable body high around 1am.
Anyone who’s done LSD before knows the sensation I’m talking about, you can’t
miss it.

Cue a couple hours of having no idea how much I had dosed. I was trying to
keep a loose subjective accounting of the time. In my head I’m simulating the
different possibilities: either I dosed the equivalent of 1 hit a couple hours
ago, 2hits an hour ago, or 4+ hits 30 minutes ago. It wasn’t until I passed
peak that those different forked realities collapsed like the wave function
and it became clear to me that I’d dosed something like 250 ug.

I didn’t sleep that night, as you can imagine. But the run I went on when the
sun finally came up at 6am was incredible.

~~~
throw_this_one
Would you recommend a full dose 125-175ish by yourself for the first time?

~~~
nefitty
You’ll reduce your risk of freaking out if you have a trip sitter or if you
work your way up to that point over time.

~~~
__blockcipher__
This, although some caveats:

(1) Be careful who you choose as a trip sitter. Some people are really bad at
it and just end up being super annoying because they're staring at you like
you're a zoo animal and keep asking you if you "see colors". Which is a long
way of saying, make sure your trip sitter has actually taken psychedelics
before, the utility of bringing a sober person along _just because they 're
sober_ if they don't have psychedelic experience is quite low. (There are some
individuals that have never done drugs yet still "get it" so I'm not talking
about them to be clear)

(2) Working up doses over time is very good advice, most bad experiences are a
result of taking too much in the wrong environment, and/or neglecting the
basics. I've found 90% of trip discomfort is solved with water, a blanket, or
changing up your physical environment.

But it is worth mentioning that accidentally taking a heavier dose because you
think it's a normal dose - can sometimes work out, in the sense that once
you've taken, say, 2.5g of shrooms you can't imagine taking 3.5g. I've noticed
this particularly with DMT, if you don't get absolutely blasted it's easy to
get anchored and be afraid to really commit to a breakthrough experience (as
much as I hate the duality / binarity of the whole "breakthrough" concept
there's definitely some truth to it)

So: taking a heavy dose as nooby is a terrible idea and thus I never recommend
it. But sometimes the terrible idea works out in your favor :)

------
alex_young
There must be some axiom here that mention of LSD in any story, however
scientific in nature, turns into trip reports.

~~~
coldtea
Why wouldn't it? It's the #1 thing people associate with it as a personal
experience...

------
BosunoB
For anybody looking to try psychedelics without the sketchiness of finding a
dealer or buying online, you should know that you can discretely grow
psilocybin mushrooms in your home for less than a hundred dollars initial
investment, and with very little effort. It's legal to buy the spores in most
states, and it only takes a couple of months to grow a nice canopy.

The best guide is
[https://www.reddit.com/r/unclebens/](https://www.reddit.com/r/unclebens/) or
[https://www.reddit.com/r/shrooms/comments/8e7g6n/how_to_grow...](https://www.reddit.com/r/shrooms/comments/8e7g6n/how_to_grow_bulk_without_a_pc_or_brf_cakes_broke/).
Expect to read a lot before you start growing.

~~~
MiroF
Most states ... except California.

------
nullc
So does exercise.

~~~
0xcde4c3db
I skimmed the literature a bit, and the results on this seem to be pretty
mixed. Basically, exercise boosts serum BDNF, except when it doesn't. In
particular, it doesn't seem to be clear what the necessary conditions are for
a sustained effect on BDNF, as opposed to a previously sedentary/untrained
person getting a transient boost from a single bout of exercise. One study's
[1] introduction summarized it thus ( _a lot_ of parenthetical citations
removed for brevity/readability):

> Animal studies have implicated the neurotrophin BDNF and the growth factor
> IGF‐1 in mediating the beneficial effects of exercise on hippocampal
> function and structure as well as cognition. In humans, findings are less
> clear since exercise‐induced increases in peripheral BDNF have been
> consistently shown only immediately after a single bout of aerobic exercise.
> Studies involving longer exercise interventions (i.e., 6 weeks up to 1 year)
> have reported mixed results. While the majority of reports have found no
> changes in circulating BDNF and IGF‐1 at the end of the training period,
> Zoladz and colleagues (2008) demonstrated increased plasma BDNF after 5
> weeks of endurance training in physically active male adults. Further,
> Leckie et al. (2014) found that 1 year of moderate‐intensity walking
> significantly elevated serum BDNF only in individuals older than 65 years of
> age. Lastly, Heisz et al. (2017) reported that, although no group
> differences in serum BDNF were found following 6 weeks of high‐intensity
> interval training in young adults, participants with greater fitness
> improvements had higher serum BDNF levels than their counterparts with lower
> fitness gains.

[1]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6555846/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6555846/)

~~~
nullc
So why assume that studies of drugs have better technique? It's a _lot_ easier
to study exercise.

I think a lot of X correlates with Y studies are just kinda crap for a number
of reasons, including that we don't have extremely good baselines -- e.g.
continuous 24 hour monitoring across a wide population in a multitude of
circumstances.

~~~
0xcde4c3db
I don't think we should make any such assumption. What this looks like to me
is that researchers have seen a couple different ways to trigger something
that might be the same mechanism, but the overall way it works is still enough
of a mystery that it's hard to say what the overlap is.

------
manishoo
Does this imply that high doses of LSD do _not_ increase BDNF levels?

~~~
mplanchard
They didn’t research that question, and I don’t see any reason why it would be
implied from their findings.

~~~
manishoo
In the Abstract section it is shown that 20 micrograms does not increase BDNF
levels after 2 hours, as opposed to 5 micrograms. It is shown however that it
increases after 4 hours. That was a little confusing

~~~
unreal37
And 10 micrograms does not increase it. So 5 and 20 does, but 10 does not?

~~~
uxp100
Or "there is no evidence" 10 ug does.

------
iamgopal
Anyone with first hand experience of LSD ?

~~~
throwaway5938
Please, you're on a discussion site where the main demographic is actively
microdosing to improve their productivity at startups inbetween two editions
of Burning Man. You'd be hardpressed to find someone _without_ a first-hand
experience of acid.

But yeah, you pretty much tend to remember everything that happens to you
during a trip, even years afterwards, which naively makes me believe your
brain and memories become more malleable during that timeframe. This would
explain why bad trips could be traumatizing.

Then there's gwern who did a RCT self-experiment and reported no benefits but
the way he measured said 'benefits' (stupid little tests, self-rating) isn't
convincing.

~~~
robinduckett
I don't microdose and I can't see how it improves productivity over say
ritalin or other methylphenidates.

~~~
nix23
Probably because you don't?

I don't drink beer, I can't see why it tastes better then Grog.

------
justanargentine
For anybody interested in psychedelics (and medicine), this is a good watch:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q0un2GPsSQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q0un2GPsSQ)

~~~
nothal
Also Michael Pollan has a great book called How to Change your Mind.

------
cma
Does recovery from brain damage increase the same growth factor?

~~~
Procrastes
Just one study, but apparently not. "Plasma BDNF concentrations did not
correlate with either short-term fatal outcome or type of injury following
severe TBI."[1]

1\. Plasma brain-derived neurotrophic factor levels after severe traumatic
brain injury.
[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/02699052.2015.10...](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/02699052.2015.1077993#:~:text=Results%3A%20Severe%20TBI%20was%20associated,%E2%88%921%20\(%C2%B1SEM\)).
Brain Injury Journal.

