
A Kindergartener’s Best Computer Is About to Die - kickscondor
https://www.kickscondor.com/2018/08/28/the-death-of-the-ipad-mini/
======
tylerchilds
What about plugging a mouse into the Chromebooks? I distinctly remember being
in kindergarten and using a mouse as my pointer input. I played Treasure
Mountain! and some other educational games.

Kids are pretty capable and adept at picking up new things. We should be
pushing forward with tech literacy while they're still young and not afraid of
breaking technology. Touch screens are great because they provided a very
directed experience, but I believe that has more to do with the software
itself being designed more intuitively when you're limiting the user to app-
style software. I think software engineers should be focused on making
accessible software for these target demographics. I think getting kids used
to keyboard/mice/touchpads will get them more comfortable and prepare them for
more complicated things down the line, like coding and word processing where
keyboards are objectively a the best input.

~~~
tonysdg
Great for normal users, awful for disabled users. A touchscreen is light-years
ahead of mice for individuals who lack or are incapable of fine motor control
skills.

~~~
belorn
I assume different school system has different rules, but here in Sweden there
are laws that school must adapt based on the need of the child. A disabled
child should get the right tools based on their needs, which will depend on
the exact circumstances.

For someone with impaired motor control skills I would assume that default
software and a touchscreen is far from usable. There is a reason why many
touchscreen system has a stylus pen, which would obviously not work in
kindergarten for children with impaired motor control skills. A large screen
and software designed for it could be one way, but I have also seen massive
trackballs that I recall is being used in those situations.

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kumarm
[Chromebooks are the new fashion in elementary school. They are cheap; they
are everywhere. And they are unusable by kids in kindergarten through, in some
case, third grade.]

iPad's are consumer devices and will not prepare our kids to be producers. I
am surprised every time I see iPad's being used in schools. Chromebooks at
least put kids in path of being producers rather than mere consumers of
content.

~~~
paganel
Honest question: why should kids in kidnergarten use computer-like devices?
What are the benefits? Are there any benefits?

~~~
derefr
This is a mindset that assumes kids are using computers to learn how to use
computers.

Kids in kindergarten can actually _use_ tablets, to learn other stuff. Any
stuff. They can indulge their own interests, in a way that's nearly impossible
in any other medium without assistance of someone older than them.

A tablet is the first cut of the way children use the Holodeck in Star Trek.
You can't (usually) just ask for what you want, and get it (kids don't have a
mental model of computers that works well enough to cope with how bad
computers still are at conversation)—but you sure can _point_ at what you
want, and get it.

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rossdavidh
I'm not totally certain that K-2 spending less time in front of a screen while
at school would be a bad thing. I'm sure they get plenty of touchscreen time
at home.

~~~
kickscondor
I cover this a bit in my reply to Eli.
[https://www.kickscondor.com/2018/08/28/caution-
chromebooks/](https://www.kickscondor.com/2018/08/28/caution-chromebooks/)

I agree that there should be a limit (and have practiced this in my classes)
but there are some incredible uses of touchscreens that I can't ignore.

~~~
athenot
What kind of incredible uses? I'm genuinely curious as I've delayed
introducing tablets and computers to my kids until they can do something
creative with them.

~~~
kickscondor
I mentioned this example elsewhere in this thread, so I'll just repeat it
here:

> Just today we did an activity where all the kids 'drew' a visualization of a
> certain math problem and then we passed the tablets around and added on top
> off them and then I showed the results on the projector. There was laughter,
> story-telling, kids helping each other, moving around the classroom, you
> name it.

I do group activities that involve creating things together that explore the
topic. (I look at technology not as a 'subject' but as a 'language' or
'medium'.) So, at home, rather than finding an educational app for them, I
would recommend giving them a tablet so they can film the things they
experience. Things they see in the backyard or things they make. They can
record themselves explaining a topic they learned about. Have them make music
(the byte.co Music Maker app is a good one for a child who has no experience
with it) and have them mess with vector-drawing or 3-D modeling apps. Then
talk to them about what they made and help them get to the next level. The
tablet is the 'medium' and you are the 'scaffold'. They need you to find out
where to go next.

And, yeah, put the tablets away half the time so they can experience things
directly. (Sounds like this is perhaps where your concern lies.)

I've also had great success with Twine once they can read.

Thanks for the great question! I hope this helps. It's really cool that you
asked.

~~~
earenndil
> Just today we did an activity where all the kids 'drew' a visualization of a
> certain math problem and then we passed the tablets around and added on top
> off them and then I showed the results on the projector. There was laughter,
> story-telling, kids helping each other, moving around the classroom, you
> name it.

I fail to see how this is something that couldn't be accomplished with paper
And using the tablets half the time seems like _wayy_ too much imo.

------
derefr
Are iPads really so unique that losing them is some sort of tragedy to
education?

I thought the reason Apple was getting out of the entry-level tablet market,
was that it was being commoditized by dirt-cheap Android tablets that—at least
for the particular things people want a tablet for—do all the same things an
iPad does. (They don't have the same third-party app ecosystem, but if you're
just using an iPad to consume content using the web browser/book reader/etc.,
there's no difference.)

In other words: presuming the educational software _isn 't_ already there
either way, and still needs to be built—wouldn't Kindergarteners be served
just as well by the iPad dying, the development of such software moving to
Android, and the kids ending up with a stack of $50 tablets from AliExpress
rather than $299 iPads? (Easier for low-income-area schools to get ahold of,
too!)

~~~
PinkMilkshake
Have you ever used a $50 Android tablet? Those sorts of tablets are almost
completely unusable. And I don't mean that in a snobby tech-elitist kind of
way. I mean they are _literally_ broken, at least every one I've used or seen
reviewed.

------
mastazi
Since OP seems to be keeping an eye on this thread, I'll ask here: have you
considered using other tablets (Samsung etc.)?

In case you did, and it didn't work as well as the iPad: what makes the iPad
the ideal device in kindergarten? Construction quality? Software/Apps?

~~~
briandear
This is Apple’s marketing so obviously it’s biased, but here:
[https://www.apple.com/education/products/](https://www.apple.com/education/products/)

How good is augmented reality on generic tablets? ..just as one example.

Many people criticizing iPads haven’t used them for education recently or
haven’t been trained on how to fully leverage the tech effectively. The
curriculum assistance, available (quality) apps and overall device versatily
are unmatched by competing devices.

For a media consumption device, iPad could be overkill, but for everything
else, it’s almost perfect.

~~~
jacobolus
> _Many people criticizing iPads haven’t used them for education recently or
> haven’t been trained on how to fully leverage the tech effectively. The
> curriculum assistance, available (quality) apps and overall device versatily
> are unmatched by competing devices._

There is nothing on that marketing page that seems to especially improve
learning vs. physical materials for anyone under about 10 years old. And
frankly most stuff for 10–15 year olds can still (a) probably be done as well
if not better using physical materials, and (b) isn’t significantly different
between an iPad and a laptop or desktop machine, and often could be done on a
machine shared by several students working together or taking turns.

I can well imagine that someone trying to learn how to program might want to
use some kind of computer, but even then why an iPad instead of a little
turtle robot that responds to Logo, or whatever?

Someone trying to learn how to make electronic music or edit video might get a
lot of mileage out of computers (iPad or otherwise) but I can’t imagine this
has become a core part of the school pedagogy.

I can also imagine that for anyone in middle school and up there might be a
big benefit to carrying an iPad around instead of a giant backpack stuffed
with 5 separate overweight textbooks. Though there are some advantages to the
physical books too.

* * *

Instead of telling a bunch of skeptical non-teacher techies that we “haven’t
been trained on how to fully leverage the tech”, maybe you can explain what
that training would entail?

What in your experience has the iPad been so powerful for that couldn’t be
done without computers? What age kids are you working with, and what are they
working on?

------
slg
Those in this thread recommending Chromebooks are missing a big part of the
equation. You don't need to be able to read to use an iOS device. Chromebooks
are much more reliant on the user knowing the written word to interact with
the device (unless their is some elementary school mode that I am unaware of).
As long as you can recognize icons, you can interact with an iOS device and
switch between apps.

~~~
robotron
What's wrong with knowing how to read before using devices?

~~~
WalterGR
I’m curious how you’re applying that to kindergartners.

I started using computers around age 4. I couldn’t read for shit. My parents
didn’t withhold technology because I couldn’t read the manual. I’m thankful
for that, as now I’m a software engineer and love it.

What insane gatekeeping.

------
keithnz
Tablets aren't going away? Just one product is getting end of lifed and you
liked that product and are miffy about it? ok, fine.... but the aritcle seems
to try to paint a picture that it was the one and only true device and now
kindergarenters are doomed :)

~~~
kickscondor
This iPad hasn't seen an update since 2015. The standard iPad is now being
marketed to schools at the $299 price. No, it's not gone - which is why I
thought to write this article, as an attempt to see the usefulness of this
specific model and size.

I agree that I'm being a bit hyperbolic - but it's not just that I like the
product. It works _very_ well for a specific audience - K-2. Thought it was
worth mentioning.

------
shirro
My kids started with the ipod touches and then on to the ipad when it came
out. They got the mini a few years ago. They had touch screens since they were
infants. I am a bit jaded with the technology. The experience is too removed
from the real world and they miss out on interactions with both other humans
and the surrounding environment to their detriment. We won't be updating their
devices and I would make different choices a second time around. I think
chromebooks and PCs are even more useless at that age but being less seductive
I would hope kids get bored quickly and instead engage in social play or
interacting with physical objects.

------
Merrill
There are Chromebooks with touchscreens available from several manufacturers.

There are also touchscreen laptops - I use a Lenovo Windows 10 touchscreen
laptop every day.

~~~
kickscondor
I have tested these out in class and they've been pretty good - the 'gorilla
arms' thing that's out there doesn't apply to children it seems.

------
kwhitefoot
Why the hell does anyone in kindergarten need a computer? They should be out
in the playground getting muddy and having fun, riding trikes and soapboxes,
climbing trees and building forts.

~~~
earenndil
I agree-- partly. There are skills kids can start learning in kindergarten
that they can use later. Counting, basic arithmetic, the alphabet, simple
reading, general conventions that are followed in school. But there is no
reason for kindergarteners to be using computers. And I say this as someone
who started using the computer at 5 -- I wasn't doing anything remotely
interesting on it until at least 9.

------
jacobolus
This post doesn’t really explain what is so great about iPads for small
children, and as far as I can tell doesn’t link to much external explanation
about it. Maybe the author had some previous posts explaining this that
regular blog readers know about as context?

Is there some report [anecdotal, peer-reviewed, whatever] comparing kids’
trying to learn using an iPad vs. physical materials? What specific ideas or
subjects are effectively learned on the iPad?

Is the iPad being used as a substitute for television? As a way to scale
teacher time better when there are many students per teacher? As a tool which
a teacher and student will use together? ...

My personal bias would be to generally occupy small children with something
tangible (sand toys, climbing equipment, blocks, balls, toy cars, marbles,
chalk, scissors and paper, pattern blocks, dice, index cards, yarn, popsicle
sticks, pipe cleaners, gears, pulleys, springs, ..., and lots of paper books)
until they are a bit older.

If there are many students per teacher and the teacher’s attention is limited,
students can often entertain themselves while learning a great deal by
working/playing in groups using physical materials.

~~~
etatoby
I will add another couple of points.

In kindergarten (many decades ago) sometimes we were given individual
assignments, such as sticking figures in the right place, coloring things,
basic counting... But other times we were _forced_ to interact with our peers
and "play together."

As someone who has always struggled to interact with other people, and who had
not met any other kids before/except in kindergarten, I think those times were
very formative. Hard, but formative.

I still struggle with people as an adult, but I think I would be worse off had
I spent that time in front of a screen, whether touch or not, instead of
interacting with other kids, including hard times like being excluded from the
group with they best toys and stuff like that.

Also, I was using a keyboard (Model M!) as young as 3 years old, and the
Microsoft Mouse not much older. I remember watching my dad add the mouse ISA
card inside the computer, and learning to use three 5" floppies in the right
order: first the DOS one, then the mouse driver one, type MOUSE.COM or
something similar, then the Windows 1.0 floppy, and finally I could use Paint
or Othello :-)

I think early computers _increased_ my ability for concentration. That's
interesting, considering modern devices are said to decrease it.

~~~
kickscondor
> I still struggle with people as an adult, but I think I would be worse off
> had I spent that time in front of a screen.

I will say that one of the things that makes a tablet so great is the
potential for group activities. I do a ton of whole-class activities with lots
of interaction - and it is possible on a tablet because it is small enough to
be easy to look past. This is an issue with desktops (esp. in a lab) and, to
some degree, with laptops.

Just today we did an activity where all the kids 'drew' a visualization of a
certain math problem and then we passed the tablets around and added on top
off them and then I showed the results on the projector. There was laughter,
story-telling, kids helping each other, moving around the classroom, you name
it.

The fact that you can get up and walk around with a tablet is a point I hadn't
mentioned. Thank you for the stimulus!

~~~
jacobolus
> _activity where all the kids 'drew' a visualization of a certain math
> problem_

What was different about their drawings vs. using paper?

~~~
vxNsr
For me this gets at the crux of the question of the place of technology in the
classroom, it almost always seems to replace regular paper and textbooks,
without actually adding anything. I had teachers who would handout
"transparencies" and we'd draw/right and them and then hand them back and the
activity was exactly the same... only with $0.00001 pieces of disposable
plastic. I really struggle to understand the benefits of a "smartboard" and
any computer in the classroom, it really feels like we're just doing this
because we can, without asking, "why?"

------
bdz
I bought a Xiaomi Mipad 4 recently and honestly it's incredibly good
[https://www.mi.com/mipad4/](https://www.mi.com/mipad4/)

Snapdragon 660, 6000mAH battery, 3GB RAM, 32GB storage. The display is so-so
1920x1200, not the best but still good. And that was $180 from Aliexpress (The
iPad Mini is $399)

~~~
compostable
Android is a deal breaker though for many people. For example, I don't want to
worry about whether I have Ice Cream Cookie, Yogurtland, Lolly Pop, etc. I
don't want to have to run Norton Antivirus on it. In fact, I don't want to be
forced to think about security at all. I want an app store with trusted apps,
not hackers.

~~~
vxNsr
While all the points you mention do bear some credence, I think the biggest
argument for iOS tablets over Android is the lack of first party tablet app
support on Android. I;m not saying there are no tablet apps, just they're a
lot less common vs iPad apps, which often are a lot more than just scaled up
iphone apps.

~~~
Krasnol
Where is the exact problem there? I never came upon an app that would cause a
problem on my Android tablet because it's not a "first party tablet app".

Especially nothing that would justify the immense cost of an iPad.

~~~
vxNsr
I guess it's a question of convenience, if all you're getting is a big phone
app, it's not always gonna work very well, I'm not sure what you mean by
"would cause a problem" but I've often come upon apps that simply aren't
nearly as easy to use on a tablet compared to a phone.

~~~
Krasnol
Well then maybe we're not understanding each other since I don't have a clue
where the convenience problem may even be.

~~~
sanitizer
For me, it's not a convenience problem, it's a trust problem. After all the
bad press I've read, I can never trust my family's data to Android. The
premium I pay for Apple products lets me sleep at night.

------
sand500
What about a cheap chromebook tablet like Acer chromebook tab 10($329)?

------
compostable
This is a real shame. Our family has really enjoyed our iPad Minis. They have
lasted so long that it makes more sense for the kids to get MacBooks next ( in
addition to needing iPhones anyway ). But otherwise I would have happily
refreshed them by purchasing the latest model. The form factor is ideal for
kids.

------
WalterGR
_Sure, by now children can do some rudimentary typing and mouse flicking. But
if you think trackpads are awful for adults, you should observe children using
them. Tears, people._

Two days ago a mathematician was explaining a concept to me that involved math
I’ve long forgotten combined with math I’ve never learned. When I told him I
didn’t completely follow, he said “It’s super easy,” and repeated what he had
already said - but more slowly.

Now, there were no tears involved, but anyone who is trying to explain or
teach something they’re an expert in/at to someone (of any age) who is very
much not would do well to remember the three sentences I’ve quoted above.
Tears or no, at any age, it’s incredibly frustrating.

------
dragonwriter
The iPad Mini isn't the only touchscreen tablet in its rough size class; there
are plenty that aren't discontinued; Apple isn't the whole tablet world.

Plus, to the extent that touch is a desirable interaction for the target age
group, many current Chromebooks are touch devices. (Even the tablet-
convertible ones, though are not a convenient size for handheld use by a
kindergartner, to be sure.)

------
Markoff
i find it fascinating someone it's not ashamed to admit they are extremely
lazy and just hand out toddlers tablets to get rid of them, that's like
laziest thing you can do - give child a tablet or let them sit in front of TV

the kindergarten for my child doesn't even have TV and nobody has problem, the
other branch has one TV which they don't really switch on, can't imagine
having tablet in kindergarten, that's just pure laziness

i let my child watch TV like max. one hour a week as reward after trimming
nails, of course pretty much zero time with mobile/tablet, it would be minutes
per week when watching over my shoulder at some of our photos/videos or rarely
gifs i watch

i don't see a reason why should child in kindergarten spend any time in front
of screen anywhere, i ruined my eyes by staring at screen, that can't be
healthy for children eyes and for many other reasons

i would be curious if they use tablets in other European countries or it's
just another example of "superior" american education system

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wemdyjreichert
Wow, that's funny: I distinctly remember never crying over not having an iPad
mini in kindergarten. They didn't even exist. And now I feel old.

