
Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters - hunglee2
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-05-18/maine-is-drowning-in-lobsters
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I'm in the middle of reading _Owning Our Future: The Emerging Ownership
Revolution_ by Marjorie Kelly, which talks extensively about Maine lobster
fishery rights.

Along the sensitive areas of the coast, only owner-operated boats are allowed
to fish, and these people must all have certified lobster fishing licenses.
Their licensure also gives them voting rights around regulations for
lobstering- in a sense, they own the commons and collectively make rules
governing it. Kelly argues that this ownership of the lobstering commons, in a
cooperative-like structure, leads to greater sustainability.

 _Large corporate boats can operate only in designated areas. Instead of
permitting limitless liberty to absentee owners for the seeking of wealth --
by hired hands indifferent to local custom -- Maine set spinning a new
governing pattern…. That the right to make a living comes before the right to
make a killing. That fairness for the many is more important than maximizing
for the few. That sustaining the prosperity of larger living systems, both
human and wild, is the root condition for the flourishing of all._ (page 138)

I'd highly recommend the book, which introduces the dichotomy of "generative"
organizations (which by design seek to produce social value in addition to
profit) vs. "extractive" organizations (which maximize financial value above
all else).

I'm surprised this article skips over this topic entirely.

~~~
pash
_> Kelly argues that this ownership of the lobstering commons, in a
cooperative-like structure, leads to greater sustainability.

>> Large corporate boats can operate only in designated areas. Instead of
permitting limitless liberty to absentee owners for the seeking of wealth --
by hired hands indifferent to local custom -- Maine set spinning a new
governing pattern…. That the right to make a living comes before the right to
make a killing. That fairness for the many is more important than maximizing
for the few. That sustaining the prosperity of larger living systems, both
human and wild, is the root condition for the flourishing of all._

At least insofar as Kelly's argument pertains to the management of fisheries
and other commons, it is—economically speaking—more wrong than right.

A tragedy of the commons can be avoided in several ways, and none of them has
much to do with putting "fairness for the many" ahead of "maximizing for the
few". Indeed, a tragedy of the commons arises only when "the many" have
unrestricted access to a scarce resource, and proceed to exploit it in an
unsustainable way, due to the strategic nature of the situation.

Kelly would have you think otherwise, but "large corporate boats" are not the
root cause of overfishing; the root cause is the desire on the part of each
fisherman in an unregulated commoms to haul in the biggest catch he can before
someone beats him to it. So aside from imposing regulation, another way to
prevent a tragedy of the commons is to get rid of the commons: grant exclusive
use of the former commons to a single party, who then has an incentive for
good stewardship.

And quite contrary to Kelly's characterization of it, Maine's solution to
managing its lobster rights can be seen as an instance of favoring the few
over the many: lobstering was restricted to a relative few legally priveledged
parties, few enough to make coordinating sustainable lobstering practices
feasible. As is often the case when the law arbitrarily privileges some
parties over others, there is an overlooked harm here, suffered by would-be
lobstermen that the rules say cannot be.

So it seems to me that Kelly's words express her worldview and her somewhat
misplaced good intentions—it is the curse of the economically uninformed that
their good intentions will often lead them to a destination they didn't
seek—but nothing more.

~~~
zz01234
> another way to prevent a tragedy of the commons is to get rid of the
> commons: grant exclusive use of the former commons to a single party, who
> then has an incentive for good stewardship.

There is a single party, and it is The State of Maine.

> And quite contrary to Kelly's characterization of it, Maine's solution to
> managing its lobster rights can be seen as an instance of favoring the few
> over the many

I fail to see your reasoning here. A single corporate entity would would
prefer to employ the smallest number of people possible.

~~~
pash
_> There is a single party, and it is The State of Maine._

That's an interesting way of looking at it, but it doesn't strike me as one
that contributes much to understanding the phenomenon. Individual licensed
lobstermen, not the State of Maine, bear the costs and reap the rewards of
their catch. The role of the State of Maine is to set rules about how and how
much they catch (to their collective benefit), but the state is not in any
meaningful sense catching lobsters.

 _> I fail to see your reasoning here. A single corporate entity would would
prefer to employ the smallest number of people possible._

I'm not sure what reasoning you think you're failing to see. I did not say
anything about how many people unitary ownership would employ, nor did I
express any opinion about the merits and demerits of unitary ownership as a
solution to the tragedy of the commons; I only noted that it is one, to
illustrate my point that Kelly's characterization of the problem and its
solution in terms of "fairness for the many" versus "maximizing for the few"
exhibits no understanding of either the problem or the solution and seems to
express nothing beyond her sympathies.

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shostack
I for one will do my part to help pick up the slack in demand.

While the wholesale price has fluctuated, has there been much change in
retail/restaurant lobster prices? I certainly don't see restaurants near me
lowering the price of a lobster roll. If anything, looks like Old Port Lobster
Shack in Redwood City increased theirs judging by what Google shows in their
menu listing for a "Maine Lobster Roll" ($18.75) vs. what their website shows
($22.95). But that's just a local price in a market that in general seems to
see prices racing upwards due to the influx of cash in the area.

~~~
tyingq
Some of the New England area McDonalds sell Lobster rolls:
[https://newengland.com/today/travel/new-england/places-to-
ea...](https://newengland.com/today/travel/new-england/places-to-
eat/mcdonalds-lobster-roll/)

No idea if they are any good, but they are $8.

~~~
cjlars
I've eaten them. It's the worst lobster roll I ever had, but the best
McDonalds sandwich I ever had.

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lukethomas
I live in Maine.

So far this year in Maine, the price is about 2x what it normally goes for.
Locals say it's because there's such strong overseas demand (China, etc). The
average price of a lobster roll I'd say is around $18.

Contrary to what the article says "it's not making anybody rich" I can tell
you the lobstermen who typically sell lobster for $2/lb off the dock are very
happy with $4/lb. A friend on a very good day will catch 2,000 pounds, so the
extra margin this year is welcomed.

~~~
ghaff
They seem to be starting to come down. They were $7/lb. at my local
Hannaford's in Massachusetts today. (Down from about $12 fairly recently.) I
assume that these are new shells coming in but I didn't buy any.

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gumby
One of the non-obvious factors of the economics of farming (fishing a specific
region included): since most of the inputs are the same (weather, and with the
emergence of commodity crops over the last century, seed too), if you have a
good year, so do your peers, which drives down the value of the crop; when the
year is bad (driving up the value) your yield has likely sunk.

This is the justification of ag cooperatives (like the recently invalidated
California Raisin Advisory board
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Raisin_Advisory_Boa...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Raisin_Advisory_Board))
which are/were granted monopoly control over marketing and enforcement of
production controls.

These boards have been really useful (in some fisheries like Ayre Peninsula /
South Australia, and according to this article perhaps in Maine) and really
terrible (e.g. Wisconsin milk boards).

~~~
ehnto
The regulations in the Eyre peninsula, and SA in general, benefit the single
boat owner over the corporate fisheries and I think that's really cool. The
strange side effect of the free market eventually benefiting large corporate
entities makes the concept of a meritocracy somewhat warped. It's hard to pull
yourself up from your bootstraps if your competitor has ten boats full of
cheap boots. With just the right amount of regulation, you can make something
that works well for many as opposed to very well for few.

Anecdotally: My father was a skipper on a cray boat, catching crayfish in the
south east of South Australia. The boat owners in those towns were essentially
the wealthy elite. But the work was tough and most of my fathers friends hit
50 with significant ailments. One has an elevator in his house as he can't
ascend stairs, the other suffered a stroke at 48 and is constantly in
agonising back pain, and I bumped into one more in a neck brace who was doped
up on opiates to cope. They made their money and retired early, but there was
definitely a cost and perhaps they never got to truly enjoy the fruits of
their labour.

------
shoover
I went to Stonington last fall with my family. It's a beautiful and
interesting place. We were fortunate to rent from a lifelong local and tour
with a retired oil industry scientist and learned about a lot of this while
there.

The locals are very proud of the lobster industry and efforts to regulate it
pragmatically but also humble and understanding that it could disappear
quickly if the overall ecology changes and especially if the water temperature
sweet spot continues moving north.

There is concern for the economic prospects of those who leave school early or
skip college to take fishing jobs young and may not be prepared for much else
if the fishing goes away.

I thought they said many lobster boat captains made more like double the
article's stated $45k; of course, that's only for the owner/operator. It's no
desk job, for sure: those guys are out on the water before sunrise every day
(except during thunderstorms) and it is cold out there. They do wrap up pretty
early in the afternoon.

~~~
yardie
> take fishing jobs young and may not be prepared for much else if the fishing
> goes away

Why not just go back to school and retrain for another career? Offshore and
deepsea fishing is backbreaking, labour intensive work. I'd hope most of them
were smart enough to figure out they aren't going to do this for the rest of
their lives. Hell, I was a bartender once and even I figured out that standing
on my feet 8-12 hours per day won't be possible after so many years.

~~~
dajohnson89
>Why not just go back to school and retrain for another career?

You make it sound like such a trivial thing. There is usually considerable
debt and lost wages taken on for attending school, even for someone fresh out
of high school. Throw a family into the mix, and it becomes very, very
difficult.

~~~
yardie
There are some jobs that are high paying, short-term only. If you're being
realistic you realize that and try to extract as much money from it as humanly
possible before the jig is up. Some examples include oil derrick roughnecking,
professional sports, modeling (obviously), deep sea fishing.

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celias
I remember reading about how abundant lobsters were on a historical plaque in
Cape Breton. From travel Canada - "There was a time when these crustaceans
were so plentiful and underappreciated that only the poorest children took
lobster sandwiches in their lunches while the rich kids ate bologna."
[http://www.torontosun.com/2016/07/27/learning-about-
lobster-...](http://www.torontosun.com/2016/07/27/learning-about-lobster-on-
cape-bretons-cabot-trail)

~~~
lukethomas
Folklore told here in Maine said that lobsters were so abundant they would
walk up on the beaches. It was considered to be "trash" food and they fed it
to prisoners.

[http://www.history.com/news/a-taste-of-lobster-
history](http://www.history.com/news/a-taste-of-lobster-history)

~~~
EvanAnderson
Others who are into lobster folklore I suspect will enjoy listening to episode
33 of "The Memory Palace" podcast:
[http://thememorypalace.us/2010/08/episode-33-lost-
lobsters/](http://thememorypalace.us/2010/08/episode-33-lost-lobsters/)

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droithomme
_> On average, it takes about a pound of herring to catch a pound of lobster._

That is very interesting and something I didn't know. I like herring more than
lobster. It has greater nutritional value. It's kosher. And it is not a giant
sea insect fed to prisoners. What is not to like.

I wonder whether similar actions to protect herrings are being taken as once
were taken to protect lobsters.

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chrisbennet
Some data points in no particular order:

\- The Secret Life of Lobsters, I highly recommend this book about lobsters,
science and lobstering industry. It was a best seller so don't let the title
turn you off.

\- Lobsters enter the trap, eat the bait - and leave. (This is a relatively
recent discovery.) Lobsterman it turns out, have been feeding the lobsters all
this time. This might explain the consistently large catch.

\- There were laws at one point that limited the # of days a week you could
serve lobster to your hired help.

------
draugadrotten
The Lobster chart in the article reminds me so much of the Cod Collapse( _)

(_)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_north...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_northwest_cod_fishery#/media/File:Surexploitation_morue_surp%C3%AAcheEn.jpg)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_north...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_northwest_cod_fishery)

------
zwieback
Is the herring they use as bait the same fish I buy in cans or jars in the
supermarket? I'd rather eat that than lobster most days.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Yes, as bait fish they're quite easy to catch. Drop a line with a few shiny
gold hooks and you'll likely pull it back up with a herring on each hook. For
some reason they really like shiny objects.

Only problem is they only taste good smoked, and when I had easy access to
fishing for herring, I didn't have a smoker :-(

~~~
kodfodrasz
Herring is also delicious when pickled in vinegar with onion, and also in some
canned varieties. At least I love it.

------
Bakary
I recommend reading the essay "Consider the Lobster" by David Foster Wallace
:)

~~~
krylon
Funny coincidence, but I just read it a few weeks ago.

Yes, highly recommended reading.

------
dghughes
From the article it says it's the same in Canada? Lobsters catches are down
here in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence this season prices are about $8/pound for
markets (big lobsters). Maybe they meant south-west Nova Scotia since it is
close to Maine.
[http://www.seafoodnews.com/Login.aspx?ReturnUrl=/SearchStory...](http://www.seafoodnews.com/Login.aspx?ReturnUrl=/SearchStory/Lobster/1061105)

An interesting point lobsters are supposedly immortal they just keep on going
if not caught of course (and if not eaten!).

Also interesting in December 2016 there was a mysterious die off of many types
of sea life off south-west Nova Scotia. I guess this didn't affect Maine but
I'm not sure if it affected NS since their lobster season is in the fall
[http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-scotia-
dead-h...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-scotia-dead-herring-
lobsters-starfish-mystery-1.3914056)

------
hueving
I've had difficulty eating lobster due to the whole boiling alive bit after
reading this:
[http://www.columbia.edu/~col8/lobsterarticle.pdf](http://www.columbia.edu/~col8/lobsterarticle.pdf)

------
slacka
If you found this interesting, I highly recommend Frontline's The Fish on My
Plate [1]. It chronicles this quirky author's journey into the world of
seafood. He does a "Supersize me" like experiment with seafood. I learned a
lot and it even inspired me to modify my diet. Mussels not only are delicious,
they help clean up the excess runoff from farms.

[1] [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-fish-on-my-
plate/](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-fish-on-my-plate/)

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rabboRubble
Am I the only one who thinks this sounds delicious?

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dade_
It concerns me that the creatures that devour dead stuff in the ocean are
thriving. Is it not a possible explanation that there are a lot more dead
animals in the ocean for the lobsters to eat? It wasnt suggested a possible
reason in the article.

~~~
daveslash
As someone who grew up in coastal Downeast Maine and has been lobster fishing
on multiple occasions, it is my understanding that the lobsters partially feed
off the dead herring used as bait. Fresh herring (freshly dead) is used as
bait in the traps. Every time the trap is pulled up to check for lobsters
(every 1-7 days), the old herring is pulled out of the bait pocket and fresh
herring (freshly dead) is put back into the bait pocket. The old herring is
tossed overboard where it sinks to the bottom and becomes food for lobsters.
In a sense, the fishermen are cultivating the lobsters by feeding them. Here
is a photo that I took, while lobster fishing, of herring that was used,
pulled out of a bait pocket, and subsequently tossed overboard. Warning:
graphic picture of dead fish.
[https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1120/5100863905_1d9520e7eb_b.j...](https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1120/5100863905_1d9520e7eb_b.jpg)

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coldtea
How can I help? I'll bring my own butter and salt.

