
DIY Weapons of the Syrian Rebels  - youngerdryas
http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013/02/diy-weapons-of-the-syrian-rebels/100461/
======
adnam
War propaganda now top post on HN.

Edit: if you are also dismayed, use this link to find people who want to show
something new to the community:

[http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22show+hn%...](http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22show+hn%22&sortby=create_ts+desc&start=0)

~~~
digitalengineer
Agreed. Made 'custom' for the tech crowd. Almost every image is accompanied by
the words "A Free Syrian Army fighter ..." because you know, without those
words we might confuse them with terrorists or guys from Palestine fighting
Israel.

Don't get me wrong, I strongly believe the people of Syria have a right for
their own freedom, but it is striking how selective our news is. Ben Ali, the
dictator from Tunis was supported by the West for 23 years, as was his
neighbor the dictator from Egypt, as is Saudi Arabia, hell even Saddam was.

It's not just a war over there. There's a war for your minds as well. Reminds
me of the famous "incubator story" where Iraqi soldiers stole incubators from
hospitals in Kuwait and left the premature babies to die on the floor. Never
happened, but was crucial for the public opinion in the West. Source:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_(testimony)>

~~~
nayefc
This article is proof to how controlled, biased and disgusting media in
America is.

~~~
noonespecial
The difference is that in America you can watch Al-Jazeera or the BBC or even
TeleMundo(1) as well. Sometimes people forget this when they complain about
media bias. It could be much worse. Imagine a country where the only news you
can watch is a government approved faux-news(2) channel.

(1) TeleMundo is also American but has a somewhat different ideological slant.

(2) For fun, pronounce that with the X and imagine that this was the only news
network you were permitted to watch. How different would your world-view be?

~~~
mindslight
... with the net effect being that people believe they are choosing media of
their own free will, and therefore much less likely to question what it says.
Even though all of the major culturally-sanctioned channels are advocating a
consistent bias, their emphases create an illusion of variety.

I doubt people in places with state-controlled media tune in and think they're
getting the whole story. In the Western world, we've moved beyond the battle
for facts - the battle is for control of their interpretation.

------
danso
The Atlantic did this same feature with Libya 2 years ago
[http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/06/diy-weapons-of-
th...](http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/06/diy-weapons-of-the-libyan-
rebels/100086/)

Here's a great post about how an Afghan refurbished a PKM machine gun:
[http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/20/afghan-gun-
locker-...](http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/20/afghan-gun-locker-
battlefield-ingenuity-and-a-weapons-longevity/)

------
davidw
War is a very good negative example of the fact that the economy is not zero-
sum. Think if all this work - as well as that of the other side - and
inventiveness were going towards productive pursuits, rather than blowing up
other people and their things. Most everyone would be far better off.

~~~
ctdonath
In this instance, the alternative is brutal oppression. They're better off
rebelling than not.

ETA: Of course it'd be better if both sides went about things peacefully and
democratically. To parent's point (now better understood hence ETA), the
situation is the consequence of governmental leadership viewing socioeconomy
as "zero-sum", and the oppressed taking extreme & desperate steps to eliminate
the "zero-sum" restriction.

~~~
davidw
Most likely. Note that I also said "the other side". If both sides went about
things peacefully and democratically, they'd all be better off on average.

------
yread
For some reason you don't see a post in Atlantic glorifying palestinian
rockets and mortars even though they look quite similar, I guess.

~~~
berntb
Because the main use of the Palestinian weapons are to target civilians?

~~~
mathieuh
As opposed to the NATO-backed terrorists known as the FSA? The same ones who
shot down a civilan aeroplane?

~~~
berntb
You are _fully_ aware of that a relevant counter to my point would have been
that the FSA mainly attacked civilians. A single example from such a
heterogeneous mix as FSA in a civil war? Sigh...

I'd continue with the lack of NATO-backing, but since your (Karma 72)
account's comment history makes claims that North Korea can't be called
communist (they are not true Scotsmen either, eh? :-) ) I'll just let it rest
here. Bye.

Edit: Clarity

~~~
mathieuh
A comment I made almost two months ago is relevant here... how? And not
refuted either, just pointed out? I quite support North Korea on the grounds
of their anti-imperialism. That doesn't mean I support the regime
(hyperbolised Western media reports notwithstanding).

Anyway:

* The USA has openly joined the war [1a, 1b]

* The FSA uses child soldiers [2]

* The FSA executes surrendered soldiers with child soldiers [3]

* The FSA bombed a university [4]

* The FSA abducts innocent foreigners [5]

[1a]: [https://www.mail.com/int/news/world/1684058-western-
efforts-...](https://www.mail.com/int/news/world/1684058-western-efforts-
syria-shifting.html)

[1b]: [http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/01/us-usa-syria-
obama...](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/01/us-usa-syria-obama-order-
idUSBRE8701OK20120801)

[2]: [http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/03/26/us-syria-un-
idUSBRE...](http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/03/26/us-syria-un-
idUSBRE82P0W220120326)

[3]: This would be a link to a graphic video, google it if you want

[4]: This would also be a link to a graphic video

[5]: <http://rt.com/news/russians-kidnapped-syria-embassy-250/>

~~~
berntb
I made a point. You didn't have an answer, you still have no answer.

I made fun of you, because you lacked an answer and instead took single
examples from very heterogenous groups (not even correct, you couldn't answer
yread). You ignored that.

Instead, you grumble when I dismiss you because you seem to consistently
support dictators against democracies.

After being unable to argue my points, you are only writing to claim that FSA
is supported by NATO, despite not answering "yread"'s questioning of your last
claim.

(Are you actively looking for discussions to write this?)

Some simple points:

1\. Obama has, according to all news, been unwilling to support FSA with
weapons, no-fly zones, etc -- despite e.g. bombings of suburbs filled with
civilians. This shame comes from under table dealings with Russia and/or fear
of islamists getting support.

2\. Your first link discussed how the British might _talk_ to FSA, not that
NATO supports them actively and about e.g. how the Syrian army shells suburbs
-- NOT that the US had joined the war, which you claimed. I didn't check the
rest.

3\. Your one-eyed criticism of one side and ignoring the artillery/bombs
against cities, torture, etc, etc, etc from the other side tells volumes.

4\. It is hard to see if you're a troll, a leftwing extremist or some paid
Iranian "50 cent army" shill. But that doesn't matter, the difference between
a griefer, a "useful idiot" and a propagandist is minimal: You're a complete
waste of time, at best.

~~~
mathieuh
What points did you make? You said you wouldn't continue with the lack of
NATO-backing because you have more karma than me or whatever you meant by
that.

I don't ignore nor support the things that go on in the current regimes
ceteris paribus. But I do support them over, in North Korea's case the USA and
UN, and in Syria's case the FSA.

I could provide more links to news sites but it's obvious that despite your
claims of my closed-mindedness, you are unwilling to listen to any other
points of view than 'freedom® good, everything else bad'.

Your fourth point (if you can call it that) is mostly just ad hominem. Who's
the idiot again?

------
mauvehaus
I suspect the fellows in the pictures could add a few new chapters to the
Improvised Munitions Handbook [1] and add some refinements to the ones that
are already there.

The pictures of them building mortar shells and missiles are pretty
interesting. I wouldn't have guessed that turning the nosecones on a lathe is
the preferred way of forming them. I mean, you'd be removing a lot of material
from the outside, then turning it around and removing a lot more from the
inside to make room for the contents. Does anybody know if they're usually
formed from sheet metal as I had always thought, or if they're actually pretty
heavy-duty for improved penetration of the target?

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TM_31-210_Improvised_Munition_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TM_31-210_Improvised_Munition_Handbook)

~~~
jws
I haven't seen mortar rounds made, but I would guess their noses are forged or
formed then turned to final dimensions.†

By whatever process they are made in the large military industrial complexes,
these pictures show how they are made when you can't invest in custom
machines, tooling, and material. You are seeing what happens when you have a
bunch of bar stock in inventory and a lathe.

It's the "I need a message queueing system and all I have is PHP" version of a
mortar.

␄

† Alibaba will hook you up with Wotech Industrial to sell you forged mortar
shell blanks for just such an operation:
[http://www.alibaba.com/suppliers/forged-mortar-shell-
supplie...](http://www.alibaba.com/suppliers/forged-mortar-shell-
supplier.html)

Medico is a pressing company and mentions on their web page that they've made
over 7 million mortar shells of various types.
<http://www.medicomfg.com/products.php> (In the second picture of the last
row, the part held in fingers, that pattern you are seeing is pressed in
before the metal is formed into a cup. It provides the fragmentation pattern
to get the part to break into a nice even spread of the maximum number pieces
that still carry lethal energy into human flesh. Probably a 25mm OCWS round.
You could set them for a distance and have them airburst just after they went
in a window or over a wall. Looks like the program was canceled. Maybe
precision and 4 rounds per second didn't need to intersect.)

1916 video of a press forming large mortar noses:
[http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675048466_manufacturing-...](http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675048466_manufacturing-
mortar-shells_filling-shells-with-explosives)

------
CamperBob2
Wow, these photos are awesome (#20 and #21 especially so), even if half of
them are staged.

So how's that gun control thing working out for Assad, I wonder?

~~~
n3rdy
If they can use video and controllers like that to control the gun, what would
stop them from making it wireless?

I would imagine the benefit of using something like that remotely would be
worth the risk of possible signal interception.

~~~
edraferi
Complexity and reliability. If the batteries die on your xbox control mid-
Halo, it's just annoying. If the batteries die on your remote machine gun with
the enemy literally at the gates, it's life and death.

I don't think there's much need for wireless inside the tank in any case.
Maybe for a remote placement turret without a vehicle mount it would be more
useful.

~~~
n3rdy
I actually meant wireless so that you wouldn't have to be present inside the
tank, you would control the gun remotely.

You would still use wired controllers, but you would use wireless networking
to control the tank close by. As long as you maintain a connection with the
tank, you are safe from enemy fire, and the enemy would be shooting at an
empty tank, with no way of telling what your physical location is.

~~~
sharpneli
Even more increased complexity. That would require them to make electronic
controls for the steering, gas and whatnot. More parts would thus be required.

In addition such a system is highly prone to jamming considering the kind of
parts they have available, and the location of the controlling transmitter can
be quite easily triangulated.

Just wanted to point out that it's not so easy to make a wirelessly controlled
tank and the benefits can be dubious.

------
huhtenberg
Beautiful photos, good lighting, _great_ casting... what's not to like. They
still missed one "rebel" in flip-flops, must've missed the memo from the
Lebanon crew. Though he's technically working on a secret factory, so I guess
it doesn't count.

(edit) For those downvoting - you can't be in combat and wear flip-flops. Ask
your favorite person who's been to the military service. If you are in flip-
flops and holding a gun or throwing a grenade, then you are an actor re-
enacting fighting in a staged photoshoot.

~~~
edraferi
Dude, have you ever seen footwear in the third world? There's a lot of people
out there who are lucky not to be barefoot. People don't wear flip flops in
combat by choice, but many don't _have_ a choice.

------
valuegram
The "Use j/k keys or ←/→ to navigate" functionality on this page is really
useful.

------
Jeremy1026
There is something to be said about human ingenuity. With minimal tools, the
ability to create these weapons and armored vehicle is something special.

------
monochromatic
Sort of related, guys builds a AK-pattern rifle out of a shovel:
[http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/build-
yourself/17...](http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/build-
yourself/179192-diy-shovel-ak-photo-tsunami-warning.html)

~~~
sesqu
To be frank, he got the mechanism, the scope and the barrel from a store. What
he actually built was the scaffolding, which is still nice but more like
assembling or repairing an AK than building one.

~~~
monochromatic
True enough. I was still impressed though.

------
dkhenry
The more I see pictures like these The more I wonder how well America would
have fared if the rest of the world disengaged its self from our revolution
the way we are disengaging ourselves from the Syrian one. I understand you
don't want to put boots on the ground, but at least give them something so
they are not fighting tanks and airplanes with giant slingshots.

~~~
stef25
They're probably worried that whatever weapons are donated will eventually be
used agains them. Fair point considering the number of religious nut jobs
currently on the side of the good guys.

------
senthilnayagam
so if they fight govt hated by US it is rebels, but if they hate US they are
terrorist

[http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/...](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2004/06/reagans_osama_connection.html)

~~~
pekk
You clearly have an axe to grind against the US here.

Terrorism conventionally refers to asymmetric warfare directed strategically
against soft targets, often in peacetime. Good examples include the attacks of
RAF and IRA in the 70s, Timothy McVey, the Unabomber and the WTC attack in the
90s.

Syria is a war zone. It is in civil war. War has always terrorized civilians.

------
guard-of-terra
This reminds me of: <http://grossfater-m.livejournal.com/1113851.html> (Not
related to any rebels, but it's claimed to be a real device)

------
benjlang
I'm just hoping that once this conflict ends eventually all of these bombs,
rockets etc. won't be used to attack other countries in the region (i.e.
Israel)

~~~
vellum
Doubt it. They're getting a lot of weapons from other countries that have just
had civil wars, like Iraq and Libya. When this is over, the weapons will
probably make their way to the next country undergoing an Arab Spring
movement.

------
ChuckMcM
I agree that on its surface it is propaganda. I also think its interesting to
see how people fabricate weapons in a war zone (or not). Some of them don't
seem like they would actually do what the designer hoped.

In general, in this age of 'high tech' weaponry, it's amazing that rebels can
go up against a modern army at all much less keep it bogged down for as long
as they have.

That said, in a non abstract way the material is deeply saddening.

------
nasir
Photo #20 impresses me as it can be used as a real gun controller real game
play. I wonder if it is every going to be used. Seems scary

~~~
chillax
(professional) Systems like that are already in use:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CROWS>

~~~
nasir
The battle is really turning into a game!

------
belorn
I wonder how safe those slingshots are. Throwing heavy objects are hard, and
remembering some mythbuster shows, a bit dangerous. Have the grenade bounce,
fall out of the slingshot grip, or rubber-band back and you got a big problem.

Is this actually in big use, and how common is "misfire"?

------
doctorstupid
I'm jealous. Looks like they're having a mighty good time. Such freedom to be
a man I'll probably never know. It's sad to think that the time for people to
truly rebel is quickly running out.

~~~
CamperBob2
You were modded down (Score: -1, Bloodlust or whatever), but you still have a
good point: if the Syrian regime were as technologically well-equipped as most
Western governments, this uprising would have been a very short one.

We are going to be in a lot of trouble if a major Western power ever goes ape
the way Germany did only one lifetime ago.

~~~
unimpressive
>if the Syrian regime were as technologically well-equipped as most Western
governments, this uprising would have been a very short one.

What's the gap between most dictatorships and most western governments look
like anyway? Is it mainly Nuclear arms?

~~~
CamperBob2
The traffic signals in one intersection a block away from my house include six
cameras. I don't know what they're all for... but I'm guessing that it would
be a bad idea for me to trundle my homebrew trebuchet up to that intersection
and start chucking grenades around.

~~~
pekk
When you are discussing "chucking grenades around" in your own neighborhood,
it seems that cameras are the least of the worries for peaceful, law-abiding
civilians in your area (not to mention police who are just doing their jobs).

Why it is publicly acceptable to talk like Timothy McVey?

~~~
CamperBob2
Abstract thinking isn't your strong suit, I take it.

------
cpursley
Notice the trend with the revolution photojournalism? Toyota pickup trucks.
There's a reason my beat-up Tacoma pickup has the nickname 'Taco Jihad' - key
ingredient to uprisings.

~~~
po
It has definitely become a reliable form of light cavalry.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_War>

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Hilux#Reputation>

~~~
jt2190
These types of vehicles are now widely referred to as "technicals":

    
    
      > Africa, says [David] Kilcullen, is where the truck got its
      > nickname as a fighting vehicle, “the technical.” “When
      > [nongovernmental organizations] and the U.N. first went into
      > Somalia,” he says, referring to a period in the 1990s, “they
      > were not able to bring their own guards. So they got so-called 
      > ‘technical assistance grants’ to hire guards and drivers on
      > the ground. Over time, a ‘technical’ came to mean a vehicle
      > owned by a guard company, and then eventually to mean a Hilux
      > with a heavy weapon mounted on the back.” [1]
    
    

[1] [http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/10/14/why-
rebel-g...](http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/10/14/why-rebel-groups-
love-the-toyota-hilux.html)

------
littledot5566
Smoking inside a mortar factory...?

I cringe looking at that picture...

------
Gotttzsche
looks like the a-team is helping the rebels

------
snake_plissken
#9...that's a trebuchet! FAVORITE SIEGE WEAPON All TIME.

------
LatvjuAvs
Seriously, is there anyone who buys rebels story anymore? Wasn't Libya enough?
But, to open ones eyes, one must face the ugly truth.

~~~
pooriaazimi
Yes, there is: (a portion of) people who try _not_ to generalize and fall
victim to logical fallacies. Even if Libyan rebels were all terrorists and
Gadhafi was a good guy ( _I'm not saying that' what you're sating; I'm just
trying to make a point_ ), it doesn't mean Syrian rebels, or North Korean
rebels (of future!), or anyone else for that matter, are also X (I'm saying X,
because I'm not entirely sure what you were implying Libyan rebels were).

------
chewxy
I know I sound fairly like a white imperialist bearing the burden and all
that, but bear with me.

We (i.e. first world countries) created really fantastic consumer devices for
our daily lives. #30 showed a Samsung Galaxy S3 being used as a guidance tool
for a missile. Do we have a moral obligation on the carnage brought about by
our devices?

Yes I am aware that you can hack anything into weapons, given the breadth of
human ingenuity, but does anyone else here feel a little morally obligated
that these technologies are being used for targeted mass destruction?

(that said, I'm really impressed by the S3 being used... as well as the
pirated PS3 controller being used to control a machine gun)

~~~
mauvehaus
Does Toyota have blood on its hands for manufacturing pickup trucks? Are the
people put machine guns in the back balanced by the people using identical
pickups to deliver aid? What about all the pickups that people use going about
their day to day lives? Some of the people using trucks in their daily lives
are no doubt able to raise their standard of living by using the truck to
carry more material more effectively than they could without.

I won't go so far as to call all technology inherently neutral (machine guns
and nerve gas being just two examples I'd be pressed to find much neutrality
in), but cell phones, like pickup trucks are about as neutral as you're likely
to find. Globally, for every person using their Galaxy S3 to target missiles,
there are probably a comparable number using a similar phone to coordinate
medical or material relief efforts and tens or hundreds of people just using
their phones as they go about their lives, many of whom benefit materially
from the ability to contact other people or look up information online at
their convenience.

And if you aren't convinced of the neutrality of pickups and cell phones, what
about the companies that made: 1) the pot the guy is stirring explosives in?
2) the lathe they're turning missiles on? 3) the ladder that got incorporated
into the slingshot? 4) the glass beverage bottles that have become Molotov
cocktails? 5) the steel pipe and sheet steel that show up in weapons in half
the pictures? Do they/we all have a moral obligation on the carnage brought
about by these things?

