
VW slumps to first quarterly loss in at least 15 years - happyscrappy
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/28/us-volkswagen-results-idUSKCN0SM0QB20151028
======
Someone1234
I don't buy the implication that this didn't go up extremely high in VW. I'm
sure they'll find some low level drone(s) to take the fall like normal, but
generally speaking if they were engineering and building cars which they KNEW
couldn't pass emmissions it had to have been a concerted effort to cheat the
system inter-departmentally, which means coordination, which means senior
management involvement.

~~~
ascagnel_
The CEO has already been fired, but for something this big it won't just be
the low-level types that get fired.

~~~
gruez
>The CEO has already been fired

...with a 67M severance package

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-
leadership/wp/2015/09...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-
leadership/wp/2015/09/24/outgoing-volkswagen-ceos-exit-package-could-
top-67-million/)

~~~
mtgx
He wasn't fired, so he shouldn't be getting a "severance package". He
resigned. He shouldn't be getting anything for the tens of billions of dollars
in damage caused to the company. I wish CEOs stopped being _rewarded_ for
screwing up.

What's worse is that VW is still pushing the narrative that only two engineers
are at fault here, and it refuses to blame the CEO, even though it keeps
finding millions and millions of other cars affected by this.

~~~
mikestew
_I wish CEOs stopped being rewarded for screwing up._

CEOs typically aren't rewarded for screwing up, they get rewarded for
_signing_ up. Any severance package is most likely negotiated before they they
take the job so as to get them to show up in the first place.

Now why it's that way is a different discussion. Want me as CEO of GroupOn or
Yahoo? Damned straight you're giving me a severance package whether I screw up
or not, otherwise I'm taking a less risky job. But CEO of VW? WTH does the
company need to offer a severance package for that gig?

~~~
adevine
> Want me as CEO of GroupOn or Yahoo? Damned straight you're giving me a
> severance package whether I screw up or not, otherwise I'm taking a less
> risky job.

Why? Tons of employees take on this risk when joining a startup, and they
don't get a huge severance package. Risk should be aligned with reward - if
you succeed you should be very well compensated for a risky gig, but if you
fail you shouldn't also be very well compensated. The only reason these large
CEO severance packages exist is because other CEOs sign these deals, and who
doesn't want to be on the "heads I win tails you lose" side of a deal.

~~~
mikestew
_Why?_

I said why: I'll take the equally-well-paying and less risky job over at
FoobarCorp, which is turning a profit and shows no signs of doing otherwise
for the foreseeable future, where I might be employed for a good long while
and leave without a black mark on my resume. If I'm going to have the
albatross around my neck of not turning around an already screwed company,
you're paying me whether I turn it around or not.

Don't shoot the messenger, I don't like it any more than you do. I'm just
laying out what the current incentive system is. Should Fiorina just scraped
by on her $4 million/year (or whatever it was) salary, and made big stacks
from her options when she turned HP around? Sure, just like the rest of us.
But that, unfortunately, isn't the way it works. Instead the rest of us get to
sit around saying, "hell, I would have been happy to fuck up HP for _half_
that amount", because we're not members of the "get paid whether you do a
decent job or not" club.

------
_yy
General Motors - which knew about their broken ignition switches for over a
decade - got away with a 900$m fine. That defect killed at least 124 people.

~~~
ams6110
And they got bailed out by the US taxpayers.

I am just astonished at the outrage over some skirting of an arbitrary number
in an emissions standard, in contrast to the comparative yawn over the things
other automakers have done that they knew would actually kill people.

~~~
DanBC
Diesel emissions kill tens of thousands of people each year.

It's probably hundreds of thousands across Europe. VW's scam has added to
those deaths. VW killed far more than 150 people.

~~~
LoSboccacc
you're way off

[http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-vw-pollution-
footprint...](http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-vw-pollution-
footprint-20151007-htmlstory.html)

[http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-estimate-the-death-
to...](http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-estimate-the-death-toll-of-the-
volkswagen-emissions-cheating-scandal)

while pollution will affects almost everyone on earth, the cumulative effect
is not that much and pollution is not a major cause for deaths to begin with

[http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.wrapper.ENVHEALTH3?lang=en...](http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.wrapper.ENVHEALTH3?lang=en&menu=hide)

~~~
DanBC
From your link:

> At present, outdoor air pollution kills in excess of 3 million people every
> year, and automobile exhaust is a significant part of the problem.

Are you talking about this bit?

> the harmful nitrogen oxides emitted by Volkswagen’s affected diesel vehicles
> – which the US Environmental Agency claims were 40 times higher than the
> legal level – could be responsible for as many as 106 deaths in the US
> between 2009 and 2015.

That's _the US_ , where diesel is not as common as Europe.

Your link says that:

> From a global perspective, the actual death toll could be much higher.

~~~
LoSboccacc
600 000 premature deaths and of the diseases caused by air pollution in the
WHO European Region in 2010

[http://www.euro.who.int/en/media-centre/sections/press-
relea...](http://www.euro.who.int/en/media-centre/sections/press-
releases/2015/04/air-pollution-costs-european-economies-us$-1.6-trillion-a-
year-in-diseases-and-deaths,-new-who-study-says)

Some percebtage by car, of which some percentage by diesel cars, of which some
are wv, of which some have defeat devices.

Edit: sorry totally misread parent post

~~~
DanBC
> hundreds thousands death caused by the pollition increase from the defeating
> device

I didn't claim that.

------
lectrick
Well, that's what happens when your software lies.

At least EFF had a small win here
[https://supporters.eff.org/civicrm/mailing/view?reset=1&id=1...](https://supporters.eff.org/civicrm/mailing/view?reset=1&id=1234)
despite losing the fight against idiotic CISA.

------
philfrasty
They feed roughly 600.000 people worldwide (without suppliers) and have been
around for more than 70 years. Just saying.

------
tajen
The article mentions €6.7bn set aside, but their trimestrial loss is $3.48bn
only. IANA-financial-analyst, but they're still profitable after scandal. Here
are a few points of comparison:

\- Revenue 2013: €197 billion (over 1 year)

\- Profit 2013: €6.4 billion (over 1 year)

So the scandal cost them 1 year of profits, 3% of their revenue.

------
mc32
I'm surprised that in the US their sales didn't take nosedive, I take that to
indicate their customer base has a very enthusiastic and fundamental core...
Which is good for them. If this does not shake their confidence, then nothing
will, and if this is the case worldwide, VW will survive this scandal largely
unscathed, relative to the size of this scandal. For a while it seemed like
their viability was very much in question, now it seems beside some large
write downs and some lean years, they will survive.

~~~
autobahn
VW is a giant company and they're sitting on a giant pile of cash. Anyone that
thinks this was going to kill VW is not very bright.

This will affect their status perhaps as the world's #1 automaker, but they'll
be around for a long time.

~~~
kuschku
And they’re partially owned by the government of the largest nation that
doesn’t run a deficit™, so even if they’d be at risk of default, no politician
is willing to fire 600'000 thousand people.

------
superuser2
Ford did the same thing in 1997. Companies seem to recover.

~~~
benjarrell
Honda as well:
[http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-06/documents...](http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-06/documents/defeat.pdf)

------
softyeti
I wonder if we are going to discover similar emissions skirting in over
manufacturer's vehicles soon.

~~~
buster
Already done. It's funny how the press is only talking about VW but meanwhile
there are first tests showing that many other manufacturers do/did the same.

[http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-...](http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-
honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row)

~~~
SilasX
That wasn't "the same". In those cases, they optimized for the kind of
environment the tests have (which regulators encourage as that test is
supposed to be representative). They didn't have the computer detect whether a
specific run was a test, as VW did.

------
marvel_boy
VW cars exceed legal emissions 40 times. There is a reason for no preventing
to use this cars?

~~~
Igglyboo
I don't think the government can say "you were lied to about your car, stop
using it" also VW can't force people to get the recall, why would you want to
get a recall that worsens the performance of you car.

~~~
choudanu4
Couldn't they force the hardware/software modifications when people go in for
yearly inspections?

~~~
ams6110
Not all states have inspections.

