
Netflix's UX design is keeping people up at night - wallflower
https://xd.adobe.com/ideas/perspectives/social-impact/sweet-streams-baby-netflixs-algorithms-genius-devious/
======
Semaphor
Does that really work on people? (Rhetorical questions, they wouldn't have
been doing it this long otherwise) How?

I feel like Netflix is trying its hardest to stop me from watching.

Usually at the top is some show I have no interest in. That takes up most of
the screen preventing me from seeing things I might be interested in.

Then I see My List: 1 show with new episodes. Great. It just happens to be the
show they wasted over 50% of their website telling me about. Onward: A bunch
of shows that I finished watching and that are either canceled, finished or
have no new episodes. Why would I want this information?

Next line, "Continue Watching": 2 shows that I found so bad I stopped watching
them (The Witcher and Criminal: Germany here)

Next line, "European Mind Game TV Shows". Sounds good. One show I might
eventually watch. 3 shows I already watched… on Netflix. 2 shows that I think
I checked and disliked but can't say for sure because Netflix keeps changing
their covers. I'd rather spend the time ranting about their dumb UI than being
annoyed by re-checking the synopsis for a show I decided against.

Trending Now: 5 shows I didn't like (where is that "Never annoy me with this
cheap shit again"-button?), one that might be interesting.

So, Netflix used up 2 pages on a Full HD Monitor and with careful checking I
realized one show I like has new episodes, and one new show could be
interesting. But I don't usually expend this much effort into finding
something to watch. So instead I usually find a new show elsewhere and only
use the search or a meta stream search to find out if something is on Netflix
and don't bother otherwise.

The only site I know with a worse UX than Netflix is Amazon Prime Video. Yet I
keep reading that their design improves engagement, do people not care what
they watch and instead just rewatch everything all the time? I really don't
get it.

~~~
Zelphyr
Someone once pointed out to me how "engagement" is often misread by companies.
The product team makes a change to their website or app and suddenly
engagement skyrockets. They think, "Wow! That change really got people to use
our product. Let's do more!" when, in reality, the change they made is
initially so confusing that their users spend more time than they would
otherwise just trying to find their way around all the new changes. This,
coupled with new product owners, product managers, and executives who feel
like they need to justify their positions and the easiest way to do that is to
"improve" the product and we have a negative feedback loop that is perceived
by everyone within the company as a virtuous cycle. All the while they're just
pissing their customers off.

~~~
AJ007
The experienced managers know that the difference, but others could either be
easily fooled or gaming the statistics to help boost their internal politics
standing.

The bigger problem is when these engagement bumps are valid but destroy long
term value in the cohort. The auto binge optimization makes viewers more
cautious about opening the Netflix app altogether.

This happens with things like fast food restaurants. Subway expanded rapidly,
and then tried holding up their sales with discounts. How long can someone eat
at Subway weekly or daily before they never want to go there again? The bar is
so high, you are way betting off starting a new franchise brand than trying
things like removing yoga mat chemicals from your bread or hiring a new mascot
who isn’t a child rapist.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> How long can someone eat at Subway weekly or daily before they never want to
> go there again?

Bread is one of only a very few foods that seem to be immune to "food
exhaustion", the tendency to want to stop eating something you've been eating.
(Milk is another, but I have a feeling that only applies to lactose-tolerant
people.)

So if you varied the fillings, probably indefinitely. How long can you have
cereal for breakfast before you never want to eat cereal again?

~~~
asdff
It's not just bread, though. It's subway.

I believe the veggie option is still yesterdays hummus crudely spread around a
bun with bell peppers, black olives, an raw onions. The meats are cafeteria
tier, in fact I think the meatball sub recipe is the exact slop served in my
old dining hall.

They undermined their masterful subliminal marketing on the entire millennial
generation by raising the $5 foot long sub to near chipotle bowl price points,
and in my city at least cheap excellent street food is already on every
corner.

I only ever settle for subway, it's not a destination.

~~~
thaumasiotes
I happen to agree about subway, but that's a personal taste that immediately
implies it shouldn't be able to run a store in the first place. "This is
terrible food" just isn't the same argument as "it's good, but you get tired
of it after a month". High sales that taper off aren't compatible with the
first.

------
mistersquid
The author, Madeleine Morley, of this very well-written article seems to be
working against her own best interest as far as sleep goes.

Quoting:

> I’ve always required television to get to sleep, and I’m not a good sleeper.

> Why watch the same thing if there was all this newness to explore? My
> nighttime viewing hours grew later and later.

> For those of us who used television as a sleep aid, we now seem to be facing
> a new phenomenon.

> All these streamlined UX features mean that when I’m tucked in bed in the
> dark, I barely need to think about what to watch when I’m trying to get
> myself to sleep.

I understand the idea of television as a sleep aid. I used to use music in the
same way. But I don't think the Netflix UI is as great a contributor to
Morley's issues with sleep as much as her sleep hygiene which uses "television
as a sleep aid", an oxymoron at best.

~~~
ckosidows
I used to do this as a kid. In my family everyone was watching a television at
almost all times when we were home. Naturally it was there when we would go to
bed.

I recognized this was a terrible pattern. I began shutting off the tv when I
was going to bed. Eventually I moved the television out of my bedroom.

This is learned behavior and it can be unlearned. There's one simple solution
to the problem posed in this article. Get the tv out of your room; it's not
doing anything positive for you and I'm fairly certain you won't crave to have
it back once it's gone.

~~~
abadar
I heard an anecdote that there's a Feng Shui ritual to exorcise the demon that
harms sleep.

They perform the ritual and then take the TV out of the room.

------
rrrrrrrrrrrryan
Netflix's UI is designed to:

1) obfuscate its surprisingly shallow library

2) encourage user interaction (more telemetry data)

3) promote Netflix original content

As a user, I don't want any of this. A small cottage industry of alternative
Netflix UIs has popped up, because sometimes you just want some good old
fashioned filters and sorts.

A few examples:

[https://flixable.com/](https://flixable.com/)

[https://www.justwatch.com/](https://www.justwatch.com/)

[https://instantwatcher.com/](https://instantwatcher.com/)

~~~
cortesoft
I never understand the complaint of a small library for Netflix... there are
way more things to watch than I have time for. More things are coming out than
I can watch.

Who are these people who watch so much stuff they run out of things to watch.

~~~
staticassertion
I think watching TV has shifted to "I wonder what's on, that looks interesting
I'll watch that" to "There's a million things on, but I just want to watch X,
and if X is not available then there may as well be 0 things on".

I used to go to Netflix for a few core shows (and still do) but they've slowly
moved off. 30 Rock, Buffy, Sunny in Philly - all are gone, which means the
number of shows I actually care to watch on Netflix was cut in about half.

They may have a million other titles, but it's extremely rare that I'm in a
"browse and pick something" mood these days.

It's also why I hate the fragmentation. All 3 of those shows are from
different networks - one day they will all be on their own respective
subscription based websites. And I'm gonna just go back to pirating.

~~~
cbsks
> 30 Rock, Buffy, Sunny in Philly

> It's also why I hate the fragmentation. All 3 of those shows are from
> different networks - one day they will all be on their own respective
> subscription based websites.

All 3 of those shows are on Hulu, so you only need to sign up for one
additional subscription. So far. I expect that the fragmentation will only get
worse from here.

I subscribe to Hulu (Always Sunny, Brooklyn 99, Bob's Burgers, Rick and
Morty), Netflix (Black Mirror, Arrested Development, Bojack Horseman, Great
British Baking Show), and Disney+ (The Mandalorian). I'm paying $31 a month
for these subscriptions. I keep wondering if I'd be better off buying
DVDs/Blu-rays and ripping them all to a plex server instead, but that seems
like a lot of work, even if it would pay off in the long run.

~~~
staticassertion
'So Far' is the key. They also used to all be on Netflix.

Money isn't an issue, it's mostly just annoying to have N services to juggle.
Pirating's really easy - I use exactly one pirating website, and it's free.
Way simpler.

------
hollander
For me, the Netflix user interface is a horrible experience that blocks me
from finding the series I want to see.

\- I want vertical browsing \- I want to be able to remove items from the
list, mark them "not interested"

Maybe some people prefer this layout. Fine! Make it optional. Give us the
"pro" user interface as an option in the menu. My bet is all Netflix
programmers want one. I can't imagine that there is one Netflix programmer who
thinks this interface is how they would make it. This interface screams
"marketing". Fuck those guys.

~~~
pcurve
They are deliberately not providing the tabular list, categorization, and
other features that most people would find useful. Most likely reason is, it
would quickly reveal to broader audience how much content they really have and
also how quickly they disappear.

~~~
standardUser
I think the most likely reason is that highly functional and customizable
interfaces remove the ability of marketers to implement coercive experiences
like the article discusses. I see this all over the internet and apps. What
used to be standard customization options are becoming rare. How can a company
A/B test something if users are running hundreds of different customized
versions of an interface? Better to keep things as standardized as possible to
ensure the desired experience and facilitate fine-tuning.

~~~
asdff
Ultimately lazy. Everything can be controlled. Give me a list view, I block
trackers anyway and am already not helping improve the quality of the data
set.

Maybe I'm just pining for a streaming service in the terminal program.

------
libraryatnight
I'm going to probably seem stupid here. I don't understand why Netflix should
be obsessed with how long people stream. I keep seeing this metric and I don't
get it for something subscription based. I have Netflix, I have no intention
of getting rid of it but I do not watch it that much. It's not ad supported,
so if they have my subscription isn't that enough? Who cares how long I watch?

At the current subscription cost, keeping Netflix is a negligible expense for
me and I'm not wealthy. So long as they put out 3-4 interesting things to
watch a year (be it originals or something licensed) I can't imagine I'd
cancel. I'm not looking to fill my days and nights, just something to kill a
little time here and there or unwind for an hour or so a day. Am I an outlier?
Do sub numbers drop if users can't sustainably spend 4+ hours a day on their
platform?

~~~
nemonemo
IMO, Netflix is at the stage where it collects mass preference to produce
better movies by themselves, which creates a virtuous cycle for their bottom-
line -- addiction to the platform of the mass & quality production.

I would think they will start charging more if the growth stalls AND enough
stickiness of the platform is proven. Currently, they are making profits and
growing in terms of revenue, so as long as the founder keeps the control and
the company is profitable, I think it might make sense to pursue more
subscription at the cost of short-term profitability.

------
newscracker
The biggest (and worst) achievement of the Netflix UX is keeping people
scrolling through lists (since almost nobody likes the blaring auto-playing
previews of what's selected) and adding things to their lists but not really
spending time watching movies or shows. This way, Netflix prevents its
customers from spending time on competitors' platforms while also saving tons
of bandwidth and other resources. It's a devious and genius UX!

Anyone from Netflix claiming that they truly want their customers to watch
more on Netflix is delusional or lying or both! For example, Netflix customers
have complained about the auto-playing previews for a long time and there's no
solution from Netflix.

~~~
TheFiend7
I'd argue it's a balance. While I agree it's logical for them to want to
optimize a balance between watching and scrolling. They don't want you to
scroll forever, otherwise you'll get bored and not watch anything, I can only
tolerate searching for nothing for so long.

Do that enough times and you have a subscription cancellation fast
approaching.

~~~
newscracker
I don’t have the link handy, but I remember reading that many (or most)
Netflix users spend a significant amount of time managing and going through
their lists to decide what to watch. Anecdotal observations and a handful of
personal conversations have revealed the same. I don’t think as many people
are canceling for this devious UX to be a money problem for Netflix.

------
dathinab
Is it just me who feels strange when noticing that its on a Adobe Domain?

I mean objectively speaking it's all fine as it's on some form of "blog" for
"interesting thinks about design". Which is what the article is about (design
which keeps you watching). Still for some reason I can't pin down seeing it on
a adobe domain irks me...?

------
yalogin
Can someone explain the reason behind the UX design? I have already paid for
subscription and this is a yearly one too on auto re-enroll, why does Netflix
have to do so much to make me watch? They only need to worry about providing
great content. People already paid for it and they have algorithms that will
guess what a user might like and bubble up those shows.

Why does it have to do one click play and auto play without even clicking?
It’s the most annoying feature ever and they seem to love it. There is no way
to disable it. What are they getting out of it? It has gotten to a poi t where
I expressly avoid Netflix unless I know there is a show I want to watch. All
because of auto play. May be my hatred of it is extreme but I don’t get the
point of it.

~~~
crazygringo
Like with any subscription, if you don't use it much, you'll eventually
realize it's not worth the cost and cancel it.

If people subscribe to 3 TV streaming services and realize they're mostly
watching only 2 of them, they'll cancel the 3rd.

So for Netflix, it's extremely important that you watch a lot, because that's
precisely what prevents you from cancelling.

~~~
isoprophlex
So every minute spent watching Netflix is one minute not spent on Disney et
al? Makes perfect sense to me in a space with increasing competition.

------
jakemal
I wonder if Netflix will eventually get rid of discrete episodes all together.
Generally, the end of an episode is when people make a decision to stop or
continue watching. If the goal is to maximize engagement, it seems like it
would be beneficial for Netflix to get rid of those decisions-making points
all together and make a season of television like a 9-12 hour movie.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
I think most people would avoid the decision to _start_ watching something
with a listed runtime of 9-12 hours. Netflix has already made sure that
episodes transition automatically and seamlessly into each other, including
reaching into the content itself to skip past long credits.

~~~
jakemal
I would imagine going into it, people would optimistically assume they are
only going to watch for 30-60 minutes, but end up getting hooked and watching
for hours.

------
harshalizee
I can't think of another service other than Netflix with such a hostile UX/UI.
And this is in the age of popups galore. Everything about their UI is designed
to keep me out of it as much as possible. My bingeing habits have drastically
reduced and switched to alternatives like prime and Hulu.

1\. Auto previews is probably the worst thing they've come up with. I just
want to read the description, not be assaulted with trailers and ad for the
show. This means you need to scroll faster than it can be invoked. This also
means a tense experience where I can't just take my time to find what I want
to watch or I have to look elsewhere.

2\. Constantly moving 'Continue Watching' . I just want to get back to the
show I was watching. Why is that so difficult to understand?

3\. Showing me previews by cutting out the end credits. It's like no one at
Netflix has any idea how to watch a movie/show. Sometimes you want to reflect
on what you just experienced. Or talk to the people around you about what
happened. This is just extremely bad behavior on an app that's paid for.

4\. The discovery is straight up garbage. A rand() function on the top global
watched tv shows/genre will result in a better selection then the crap their
ML algorithm puts out.

Ironically all their 'engagement' tactics had moved my household from Netflix
to Hulu and prime more. 2020 is probably when we'll cut the cord on Netflix.

Netflix had a huge advantage of being the first and the biggest in streaming
services. They could have been easily the Google Search equivalent in their
field. Instead, today their just one of the very many services with no
discernible difference.

Netflix has solid engineers who were amazing to work with, but their product
management teams would be people I'd never hire because it's very clear no one
really understands the product.

------
jalgos_eminator
Maybe if Netflix had movies and TV shows that I actually want to watch, then I
would stay up to watch them. Its become a recurring joke that every time I
think "Hey this movie looks good, I'll check if its on Netflix", the movie has
never once been available for streaming. This actually happened this weekend.
I searched for 4 different movies, and in the "titles similar to {#4}" was one
I was interested in so I watched it. I keep forgetting to cancel because I use
Netflix so little now.

------
jedberg
The entire premise of this article appears to be based on the idea that peak
viewing is from midnight to 2am.

That is most definitely incorrect.

Peak viewing, at least when I worked there, was during prime time in that time
zone.

Except for kids shows. Peak viewing of kids shows was Saturday morning.

~~~
dickjocke
What was working there like? Does the whole "this is a professional sports
team you might be cut at any moment" culture impart fear or undercutting or
blame shifting?

I worked at Amazon and I found that the horror stories were _generally_ not
true, but that if you ended up with the wrong manager could be very true.
Always been curious about Netflix.

~~~
jedberg
I loved working there. Everyone was great.

Everyone fears getting fired for the first few days, until you realize they
don't really just fire you on a whim. Then you get over it.

People don't get fired for making mistakes, so there really isn't any blame
shifting or undercutting. Making mistakes is encouraged -- it means that
you're innovating and trying new things.

Making _the same mistakes repeatedly_ is what gets you in trouble.

The main difference between Netflix and other places is that at other places,
when your current skills are no longer needed, they will move you into a new
job and give you time to ramp up.

At Netflix, they will say, "here is a big fat severance check, let us know if
you need any glowing references".

------
ruuda
This doen’t seem to be particularly new or specific to Netflix. When I am
reading a catchy book at night, I often read more chapters than I intended to,
occasionally until deep in the night.

~~~
dmix
Same, plus I remember countless times I stayed up later than I should have as
a kid watching network television as a kid in the 1990s. I guess Fox was
fighting my sleep too?

The main argument seems to be that binge watching makes it worse. But in
reality there’s only a small amount of shows that are worthy of binge watching
and Netflix has a very finite amount of them...per year.

------
tptacek
I feel so seen! For a very long time, I couldn't sleep without watching TV
shows on my laptop, to the extent that I'd have insomnia if the Internet went
out. In fact, even though I've weaned myself off it for the past several
months, I'd probably still have trouble sleeping if I didn't at least know I
could watch reruns of 30 Rock if I had trouble sleeping.

More to the point: just like the author, there's a very particular kind of TV
I'd watch to sleep: nothing for the first time, and nothing tense. The West
Wing and the US version of The Office were both great for me, since there's so
much of it to get through. I've probably seen every episode of The West Wing
at least 15 times by now.

Which, to me, sort of answers/challenges the concern the author has about
binge watching. On a normal night, I'd barely make it through half an episode
before I'd notice time slipping as I watched, my cue that I'm nodding off and
should shut the laptop. I'm never watching first-run stuff like Mindhunter or
Russian Doll, the stuff Netflix really wants me to be streaming, because it'd
keep me alert.

------
tracer4201
What I find surprising is that despite their shallow catalog of content (my
opinion), they fail to promote their shows to me that I’m actually interested
in. When Stranger Things Season 3 was released and when The Witcher was
recently released, it was no where on my home menus. Despite these shows being
the exact genre I typically watch, I had to search for these shows. ?????!

~~~
mrieck
Their machine learning algorithm is probably optimized to reduce churn and
keep subscribers at any cost.

By making people search and find content, there might be some subconscious
effect on people that makes them think the service has more value. Tricking
people subconsciously means less cancelled subscriptions.

What's scary is that all these dark patterns Netflix and other tech companies
are using are completely obfuscated. No one really understands what's going on
because the patterns are part of some complex neural network. In the past they
would have been shamed publicly for stuff like this, but now it's only 20% of
their users who have such-and-such psychological profile can be exploited this
way, while others can be exploited another way and no one knows what's
happening.

My theory is the more powerful AI becomes, the more it will exploit human
psychology until everything sucks. Everyone will have the overwhelming urge to
keep spending money while being miserable because that's the optimal customer
according to the AI.

~~~
tenebrisalietum
> My theory is the more powerful AI becomes, the more it will exploit human
> psychology until everything sucks.

It can hardly do worse than what human beings have done to themselves over the
millennia and continue to do to each other every day. But it can probably do
it faster and more efficiently.

------
teddyc
About a year or so ago I realized that I cannot pay attention to English
dialog shows (I speak English as my native tongue). I would either look at my
phone, or even worse, start doing work on my laptop.

I made the switch to International Shows (that are not in English) where I am
forced to read subtitles. I am forced to pay attention. If I don't, I have to
rewind or pause.

It's actually a great system b/c: #1 - Netflix has a pretty solid
international library b/c they've been making the global push #2 - Every
country has some good shows (at least a few) #3 - It's pretty interesting
seeing how the other half lives

Also, to a lesser extent, Hulu and Amazon Prime also have good international
shows, often licensed from real studios operating in foreign countries.

Occasionally I will watch an English speaking show, but it's an exception now.

------
MisterBastahrd
It's still the best among the major streaming companies.

Amazon's is designed to sell you episodes, meaning that it's complete garbage
for actually trying to view shows. Instead of coalescing all the seasons and
episodes for a particular title, they'll break them up into individual seasons
that are usually NOT in alphabetical or chronological order.

Hulu? I tend to watch a couple shows on Hulu when I'm not viewing live TV. It
is ALWAYS a giant pain in the ass to find those two shows. If I were at a
computer it'd be one thing, but I'm sitting there with a remote trying to
input text into a search bar.

------
dickjocke
I always wonder if the public considers the Netflix UX to be as bad as it is
considered here on Hacker News. I've noticed this with Airpods too. We as
(mostly) tech people will deride a product and predict it's decline but it
will have record sales and seem popular in the world. I have heard a few
grumblings about the content library out in the wild, but in general people
seem pretty excited and keen on Netflix.

I know that everytime I happen to watch cable TV with commercials the
experiences feels a bit dated; I can only imagine what it feels like for the
20 and under crowd.

------
WomanCanCode
I love my Netflix subscription but absolutely hate their app. And to think
that their software developers are among the highest paid in the industry! I
fondly remember the old days, when they give is a long list of shows in a list
from top to bottom. And you had an arrow to move your titles up and down. No
fancy images and auto-play and atrocious design

------
the_watcher
> I’ve always required television to get to sleep, and I’m not a good sleeper.

These two statements are correlated. Television in your bedroom makes you a
worse sleeper, and you can immediately improve your sleep quality by removing
it and keeping your room as dark as possible. I was skeptical of this, but
after a month of insomnia, I went to a sleep lab for a consult and took all of
their advice. I'm still not an amazing sleeper but it's been a huge
improvement.

------
surround
> Good UX coupled with great television has a way of encouraging bad viewing
> habits.

This reminds me of a project to make cigarette packaging _less_ convenient in
order to discourage smoking.

[http://www.erikaskin.com/index.php?/projects/design-to-
annoy...](http://www.erikaskin.com/index.php?/projects/design-to-annoy/)

------
Gravityloss
Why is Netflix such a big deal? It's on the front page constantly. Their
catalog is not massive and there are lots of other roughly equivalent services
too.

I think it's something that William Gibson notes that in the US in everyday
language, phenomena are somehow always tied to brands.

~~~
rrrrrrrrrrrryan
There are definitely strong network effects at play - people want to be able
to watch and talk about the same shows as their friends and family.

------
DonHopkins
How does Netflix make more money the more users watch, if users pay a flat
monthly rate, and they don't show ads? They have to pay more bandwidth costs,
the more people watch. Seems they should optimize for users who subscribe then
never watch.

~~~
UserIsUnused
That is a "keep users paying feature". If you watch netflix a lot, there is a
slimmer chance of cancellation.

------
krishsai
Leveraging AI and ML making companies to increase their revenue multi-folds.

------
lapink
Can’t people be grown ups and stop blaming UXs for their behaviors?

~~~
beart
No. It's no different than advertising. You may think you are "mature" enough
but it does impact how you behave in suttle ways

------
liminal
I know Netflix will never make the faceted search interface I've always
wanted: Show me shows that are between 45-90 minutes in a particular genre,
made in the 70s. Show me animated shows from Japan that are <25 minutes long.
Etc.

------
duxup
Netflix's UI is terrible for discovery, unlike the DVD days where I loved
browsing it even if I wasn't going to watch.

I do doubt that it's UI really makes anyone watch anything or binge.

------
nkkollaw
Netflix's UI is probably one of the worst I've ever used.

Horizontal browsing on desktop (or even mobile for that matter), are you
kidding!?

Mouseover will completely change the layout, etc. etc.

Just very bad in general.

------
qaezel
It always confuses me how authoritarians and their ilk always end up admitting
they do the thing they are complaining about. It’s like they are complaining
to me for their lack of self control. In any case, Netflix does turn off if it
thinks you are asleep. Or, you can configure your tv or Wi-Fi to turn off at a
certain time, which is why my kids don’t watch tv at 3am.

------
ablekh
_" The UX of the top streaming services are expertly designed to encourage me
to binge and remain on the platform for as long as possible."_ \-- I don't
quite understand this. If it would be an advertisement-driven platform, like
Facebook, then keeping people on a platform for as long as possible would
certainly make sense. From a business perspective, that is. However, for
subscription-based ad-free platforms like Netflix, I don't really see how it
benefits them (assuming that people stay within the same plan/tier).

