
SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more - sphericalgames
http://www.aftenposten.no/webtv/serier-og-programmer/sweatshopenglish/TRAILER-SWEATSHOP---I-cant-take-any-more-7800835.html?paging=&section=webtv_serierogprogrammer_sweatshop_sweatshopenglish
======
nkoren
I'm an American with a left-wing upbringing and still broadly left-wing
politics. When I graduated from architecture school in 2001, I wanted some
international experience, so I moved to India. What I saw there utterly
transformed my preconceptions of sweatshops -- because I saw it _before_ the
sweatshops began opening.

One of the projects I was helping to design was a "science city" tech campus.
The workers lived in an encampment next to the construction site. They worked
from dawn until dusk for 6.5 days per week -- half a day off on Sunday --
every day of the month except for the new moon. Children as young as 6 were
working -- moving and sorting materials, but quite dangerous inasmuch as it
was on a live construction site. The standard wage was roughly $3 per _MONTH_
(although food and very nominal shelter -- really more like "camping space"
\-- were provided for free). These were not outrageously abusive labour
practices -- they were absolutely bog-standard practice of local industry,
preferable to many of the alternatives for these people.

Seeing this situation with my own eyes, I realised that if these people had
the option to work in one of those $1/day sweatshops I'd heard anti-
globalisation activists go on about -- in line with my own sympathies -- it
would be an absolute DREAM. Since then, I've been rabidly pro-globalisation.
These days, I get incensed when I see people going on about the horrors of
globalisation, with absolutely ZERO understanding of the counter-factual.
Utter ignorance of how bad it would be otherwise.

The one case where I'll allow that sweatshops are problematic is when their
owners become so powerful that they corrupt the local politics and take steps
to ensure that that the population cannot develop its economy any further.
This has happened in some places, creating locked-in populations for whom the
sweatshop is not the bottom rung of the ladder, but the top. That's an actual
problem, where it has happened -- but in most of the world (eg. India, China,
most of the rest of East Asia), that's NOT the story that's played out, and
sweatshops have been a vital (but temporary) step in economic development.

~~~
6stringmerc
I'm an American with a Bill Buckley-type of conservative upbringing which made
an interesting combination considering both my parents were born and raised
Californians. I mention this because one of the phrases I heard long ago was,
I guess, a selfish perspective about globalisation: "It's not about bringing
the rest of the world up, it's about bringing down our wages and standard of
living here in the USA."

Frankly, as I've grown up and worked in several industries, one of which was
at a Wall Street firm, I see that outlook to still be valid. In the USA,
productivity is at its highest levels. Wages have stagnated. The tax system
has been calibrated to serve those with the most to protect and it chokes
capitalistic market forces because hoarding and paying 15% on carried interest
is not a practical or sustainable model to have a diverse society of low-
middle-top class members. Statistics show that the largest population of jobs
in the US following the 2008 recession have gone to workers age 55 and over.
They have no savings, they have to work, and because they work, they take up
low-level jobs young people could occupy to get started becoming earners and
taxpayers. _Could_ but right now, to me, _can 't_ even if they wanted that leg
up.

Many people in the US can afford large TVs, advanced mobile phones, or "buy" a
car on a 60 month loan plan; however, many of these items are built in places
where wages are extremely low and quality of life is, well, not something I'd
really wish on anybody. My quality of life is amazing by comparison, and yet I
can see how hard it has been for me to achieve upward mobility in the current
and foreseeable market conditions.

To put it another frame, the internet and poor regulation allows numerous
firms in China to make IP infringing "Chibson Guitars" \- they are, frankly,
not very good but allow the buyer to _feel_ special. There is an emotional and
economic dynamic that is hard to quantify, but is definitely present. Should
every guitarist be able to afford a genuine Gibson? I'm not sure. Should
economic sniping, exploiting developing nations for simple economic benefit,
and disrespect of natural preservation be tolerated? I certainly don't think
so.

These are just counter-points to contextualize the phrase I heard long ago,
and one I think has played out with eerie prescience.

~~~
rayiner
To me, the big problem with globalization is not the conditions of the
sweatshops in India. $1 a day and the chance of burning alive in a garment
factory (happened just the other day in Bangladesh) is better than subsistence
farming, probably.[1] My problem with it is that of the $50 a day that comes
out of an American pocket by exporting that work overseas, $1 goes to the
Bengali garment worker, and $49 goes into the pocket of some shareholder. And
when conditions become "too good" in India and Bangladesh, as is already
happening, they'll just move over to Vietnam or Laos.

[1] There's also the issue that the negative externalities of industry make
the other alternatives worse. My dad grew up in a village in Bangladesh.
Before run-off from industrial farming killed them all, the rivers were
teaming with hundreds of different kinds of fish. The existence of industry
makes the lives of farmers harder.

~~~
dragontamer
Taxes + tariffs can solve that issue.

The main issue is if you push too hard, then the $49 to US shareholders
suddenly becomes $49 to Irish Shareholders instead, as companies have the
ability to move themselves to other countries to take advantage of tax codes.

So the tax / tariff systems need to be written in a way to account for that.
Or we can get a quicker Congress so that we can keep up with (legal) tax
evaders.

------
dmorre
Episode 1 - 5 with subtitles. The links are extracted from the mobile version
of the site.

[http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/...](http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/1416560575076668800-c5989e5b-587c-4ae4-96b1-01769129a2a1-iphone_600kbit_64_480x360_vbr.mp4)

[http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/...](http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/1416560793016364200-93c4380c-7389-4e8d-8863-d153a8629986-iphone_600kbit_64_480x360_vbr.mp4)

[http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/...](http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/1416560716079490100-1607549d-d005-4644-8099-06da0f1ef9e7-iphone_600kbit_64_480x360_vbr.mp4)

[http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/...](http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/1416560802092290500-eb93b63b-ca5f-4ee5-9fc9-ec1dc197d473-iphone_600kbit_64_480x360_vbr.mp4)

[http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/...](http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/1416560480020584800-40b974e4-5dca-41b2-a92a-8224e873f066-iphone_600kbit_64_480x360_vbr.mp4)

~~~
andor
Same videos in 720p:

[http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/...](http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/1416560575076668800-6c54d98f-b101-43e6-b7db-7238e9f4f0b0-h264_3000kbit_1280x720_medianorge.mp4)

[http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/...](http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/1416560793016364200-d3b98b5a-82d9-4f98-8d8f-7ceff3111766-h264_3000kbit_1280x720_medianorge.mp4)

[http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/...](http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/1416560716079490100-581508d7-bc38-472d-95cb-3534d032bae3-h264_3000kbit_1280x720_medianorge.mp4)

[http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/...](http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/1416560802092290500-7508f519-4431-41d9-b12b-e952ed799132-h264_3000kbit_1280x720_medianorge.mp4)

[http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/...](http://frontend.xstream.dk/ap/resources/content/mp4/2014-11/1416560480020584800-9f3fbec7-90d9-490b-b978-3c169d7eac31-h264_3000kbit_1280x720_medianorge.mp4)

------
bruna597
Something that bothers me is the fact that even though they have cried on the
show and said that they were going to do something to help, if you search for
them on the internet, its clear that they aren't doing anything about it! Even
the girl who has a fashion blog, she is still writing about the trademarks
that use this kind of abusive job to make their clothes...

~~~
mcv
Honestly, I don't think we should leave it to the occasional individual to do
something about it. If we want to stop this, we should ban the import of
products that do not meet our own labour standards.

We have reasonable work weeks and healthy working conditions because we fought
against that exploitation. But instead of stopping it, we ended up merely
exporting it; we don't make our stuff here anymore, but it's made in other
countries where the conditions we had in the 19th century are still legal.

If we demand the same humane conditions from imported products as we do for
locally manufactured goods, then either they get better working conditions, or
we get some of those lost jobs back. Probably a bit of both. Either way,
everybody wins. (Except that stuff gets a bit more expensive, but that's
unavoidable when you start paying a fair price.)

~~~
dublinben
>we should ban the import of products that do not meet our own labour
standards

This is against the kind of international "free-trade" agreements and laws
that every major country is a party to.

[http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/23/business/company-news-
us-b...](http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/23/business/company-news-us-ban-on-
mexico-tuna-is-overruled.html)

~~~
pluma
The EU and the US are currently working on one such "free-trade" agreement. It
will make importing goods from the US easier, but it will also allow American
companies to circumvent the stricter consumer protection laws in Europe (e.g.
privacy laws and food regulations).

Free-trade agreements are a double-edged sword. Pretending they're universally
and unambiguously beneficial by default is absurd. Especially with the amount
of lobbying (including domestic companies lobbying abroad via their local
subsidiaries) that influences their terms.

BTW, many Europeans don't think of these regulations (privacy laws, etc) in
the EU as regulations, they think of them as _rights_. Facebook & co have to
jump to ridiculous hoops[0] to use their business model in Europe -- for the
users, that's a feature, not a bug.

------
JonnieCache
The BBC did their own version of this in 2008 called Blood Sweat and T Shirts.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood,_Sweat_and_T-
shirts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood,_Sweat_and_T-shirts)

The gimmick was that most of the kids were ludicrous pampered upper middle
class fashion students with no sense of perspective, or at least the programme
was edited to portray them as such. Much of the entertainment came from
watching them subjected to backbreaking labor while their self-contained
worldviews crumbled around them.

~~~
RaffRaff
They had to go all way to Asia for this? How about bricklaying jobs in eastern
europe? How about factory workers in any country?

Really, we all know life is not fair, but to go all way there to just cry and
moan seems rude

~~~
mrottenkolber
I feel this point. I'd argue that these kids are rich even for Norwegian
standards. You don't need a plane to see some stark contrasts. Just take tram
61 from Musikerviertel to Tannenbusch.[1]

1: A local (to me) tram line that leads from an expensive inner-city region to
an affordable ghetto in under ten minutes. If you are born there (Tannenbusch)
chances are you will spent most of your time there. If on the other hand, you
are in Bonn to study at the local university, you probably don't know it
exists.

------
foobar2020
I really don't understand this problem. Why does everybody think people in
Asia are forced to do this kind of work? These people would be incredibly poor
if not for western companies. Actually most of them would die being children
as a result of their poverty: malnutrition, accidents, preventable diseases
such as polio or measles.

Go now and check what was China's annual GDP per capita in Mao Zedong times.
Just see it. Apparently a lot of people need this kind of basic history
education.

Yaron Brook has more knowledge on the topic:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwb8m_ZbU-U&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwb8m_ZbU-U&feature=youtu.be&t=33m33s)

~~~
tootie
That's not wrong, but it does kinda miss the point. The argument isn't we
should stop buying and let them go back to living off the land. The argument
is they should be paid a living wage to do work that has value. If the work
came back to first-world factories, they'd have to pay at least 10X the wages,
so just agreeing to 1.5X or 2X is still a bargain.

~~~
imron
This is a really tricky problem though, because what happens when factory jobs
bring in more money than those that require further education and training?
What you get is people dropping out of school to go and work in those
factories, which then only goes on to perpetuate the poverty cycle.

I don't have any good solutions, but I do know the answer isn't as simple as
just doubling factory workers' wages.

~~~
tootie
Nah. That Flappy Bird guy made a small fortune even by first world standards.
It drove him insane too.

~~~
imron
The difference being that the Flappy Bird guy was doing skilled labour
(programming) of that sort that is likely to help end poverty cycles.

Compare that to thousands of people dropping out of the education system early
to do unskilled factory work because it pays well above average salaries.

Imagine for example you could make $120,000 a year as a programmer, or
$200,000 a year doing factory work. Do you think society will produce more
programmers or more factory workers?

Imagine what happens a few years down the line when the multinational that
owns the factory decides to up and move to another country in order to reduce
costs.

~~~
kylebrown
> Imagine for example you could make $120,000 a year as a programmer, or
> $200,000 a year doing factory work. Do you think society will produce more
> programmers or more factory workers?

Say I can make $25k a year as a janitor, or $360k as an anesthesiologist. Is
society producing more janitors, or more anesthesiologists?

~~~
imron
That analogy doesn't fit what I'm saying because an anesthesiologist is a
highly skilled occupation and it takes years of specialised training to a gain
the qualifications and skills necessary to work in that field.

Flipping it around and you get something closer, e.g. imagine instead a
janitor made $360k a year and an anesthesiologist $25k. You'd find society
would have a huge shortage of anesthesiologists because why would anyone go
through all that training to get a job that pays a fraction of what you could
earn cleaning toilets.

You'd also find people dropping out of college to become janitors.

Now ask yourself what happens in developing countries when unskilled factory
workers get paid double what you could earn as a university graduate. What
happens is that many people decide they would rather work in a factory than go
to university.

------
macarthy12
Honestly I would imagine those 3 Millennials having an issue with most hard
work.

I live in Asia, I look though a different lens,

\- Imagine being loaded on to a truck and brought to factory everyday -- You
mean a free ride to work?

\- Imagine your kids roaming the factory floor -- No child care costs?

\- Imagine having to working 12 hours a day -- I can pay for my kids to go to
school ?

\- Imagine being stuck in a factory all day -- not under the sun planting
rice/corn etc..

Obviously there are a lot of macro and micro-economic factors at work, I just
saw a truck delivering a automated t-shirt embroidering machine, so that
economic switch has tilted, but do you think the talk will be, "we are free!"
or "where did the work go?"

~~~
sleepyhead
That is such bullshit. I lived in Phnom Penh. That "free ride" you refer to is
the most dangerous part of their day. There are lot of accidents with these
trucks. Your other points reek of privilege and lack of actual understanding
of how these people live their lives.

~~~
eitally
I believe you, but it's also true that in many parts of the world, those
"trucks" are actually air conditioned buses.

<source: I work for a global manufacturing company with 14,000 people in
China, 2,000 in India, 12,000 in Mexico, 10,000 in EU, and 15,000 around the
rest of the world.>

~~~
sleepyhead
You have to go in a tourist bus to get an a/c bus in Cambodia. The trucks for
these workers have full natural a/c and traffic pollution nicely blended in.

Also note that these workers are mostly from rural areas. Where educational
level is very low.

------
nhangen
It's funny to me that the same HN continually bashing Google for being evil,
Uber for being sexist, and startups in general for treating workers like
slaves, is the same HN that generalizes and rationalizes this type of
behavior.

We complain that minimum wage workers here aren't paid enough in the US, and
yet we're OK with people making $3/day, pushed to their limit by a boss that
might as well be a warden.

This may not be slavery, but it is indentured servitude.

And I say this as someone lacking a single liberal bone in my body.

~~~
wyager
How is this indentured servitude? Indentured servitude is when you contract
out your labor in advance, without the ability to void the contract without
legal repercussions (usually imprisonment). Being stuck in a job due to
circumstances may be unfortunate, but it's not indenture.

You should have seen these areas before the sweatshops. Conditions were
substantially worse, but because most westerners historically either didn't
care or were unaware, it's easy to get the false impression that these workers
are worse off than they were before the sweatshops. In reality the sweatshops
are a huge improvement.

Consider that, for the most part, jobs that existed in impoverished countries
pre-industrialization still exist, yet most workers choose the sweatshops when
given the chance.

------
tellarin
Better link: [http://www.aftenposten.no/webtv/serier-og-
programmer/sweatsh...](http://www.aftenposten.no/webtv/serier-og-
programmer/sweatshopenglish/)

This one shows the whole thing. One can watch all episodes online with English
subtitles.

------
auganov
Am I a bad person for thinking it was going to be a post about a techie fed up
with working at a software consultancy?

~~~
ersii
Well, I certainly don't think you're a bad person for that - considering this
forum is generally focused towards the technical angle of things.

For some reason, I thought I was clicking through to another Five Eyes/NSA,
GCHQ, CSE programme. I guess it's since it was a single word in all capital
letters and aftenposten.no previously reported on the "Oslo mobile/GSM
surveillance" thing.

~~~
jmccree
Glad I wasn't the only one to think this was going to be about an NSA program
and outrage they would name something SWEATSHOP.

~~~
pluma
I thought their convention for arbitrary project names was always using two
words with no intentional revelance to the actual scope of the project (with
projects like Prism being the exception).

Then again, some of their names are so blatantly fitting (and offensive) that
that claim doesn't seem very believable in the first place.

------
colmvp
So, I remember seeing this on Reddit a few weeks back.

Some commenters mentioned that sweatshops are a necessary evil for developing
nations. It's better to have a shitty job than to have the alternative of
being jobless and resorting to theft/prostitution for sustenance.

How true is such an argument?

~~~
sjtrny
It is definitely not a neccesary evil. Minimum wage in those countries could
be increased (or one created and enforced) so that there is a dramatic
improvement on the workers lives without much of an impact on the end
consumer. Consider how cheap a t-shirt is in the U.S. However politicians are
scared since they think it will drive business out of their country. Or they
are corrupt.

~~~
runeks
> Minimum wage in those countries could be increased (or one created and
> enforced) so that there is a dramatic improvement on the workers lives
> without much of an impact on the end consumer.

I think it makes sense to ask ourselves: why did a Western company move
production from the West to this country in the first place? Probably because
of lower wages.

Increasing the minimum wage is not a solution if the reason these workers have
a job in the first place is that their labor is cheap.

------
3454359009
Kind of funny. I started in similar conditions. But I hear constantly to
"check my privilege" from someone with $100K+ income, university and $500
handbag.

~~~
Omniusaspirer
That's human nature for you. It's very difficult for most people to put
themselves in the position of someone else.

An example from my own life that I find striking is a janitor at the hospital
where I'm employed. He grew up in Thailand in a remote farming village. While
there he lived in complete poverty (bamboo house, no electricity, drinking
rainwater) since he was born to a multigenerational family of rice farmers. He
worked hard in school, spent time as a monk, and then eventually had an
opportunity to immigrate to the US where he's been for about 10 years now. He
speaks four languages and seems very intelligent in all the conversations I've
had with him- it seriously pains me when I see people talk down to him.

With that said; It's just ignorance- best not to dwell on it and just keep
moving forward. Focus on self improvement, then when it's you with the 100k+
income try not to forget where you came from.

------
Sakes
This is emotionally confusing for me. It seems like the general consensus on
HN is that this is a necessary evil. I can get on board with that, but it
still feels wrong.

I guess the only way to think about it is progress is progress, so if
sweatshops are an improvement for these people, then there is good in it for
them... for now...

We have seen China over a few decades transition from textiles, to tech
manufacturing, and now developing IP products and services. Is this the norm?
Or the exception?

I just have questions at this point, but I guess for the time being... back to
work.

~~~
the_af
> It seems like the general consensus on HN is that this is a necessary evil

The general consensus on HN seems to be that it's a "necessary evil" as long
as it conveniently happens to _other people_ , and allows us to buy cheap
gadgets and T-shirts.

You're right to feel it's wrong.

------
vdaniuk
I am depressed that significant part of collective intelligence of the most
intelligent and influential tech communities on the internet is advocating for
sweatshops because the alternative is worse. False dichotomy, if I ever seen
one.

~~~
kylebrown
The current system is not the best of all possible worlds. There are better
alternatives (eg. fair trade), ignoring them is just laziness.

------
Kenji
I wonder, how can we in the first world change our behaviour here to stop
things like that? Does the very way we live cause this or are the causes
local?

~~~
duckingtest
It's not that they're exploited. Cambodia's economy is just really, really
inefficient. Food prices in Cambodia are really high (ep 4), higher even than
in Berlin [0] by 21%, not to mention Eastern Europe (2+ times Warsaw's prices,
4x if you shop around). The sad thing is, the wages in sweatshops won't go up
much. Sooner or later automation will advance to the point where even $3/day
for sewing garments will be too high and they will all be fired.

[0] [http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...](http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&country2=Cambodia&city1=Berlin&city2=Phnom+Penh)

~~~
iandundas
with regards to the numbeo figures: these are pretty offset by the high price
of Milk, Bread, Cheese, Apples, Wine - all of which are non-native foods and
would have to be imported to Cambodia (and which wouldn't be part of an
average diet there). In fact, most of the foods there are non-native -
potatoes? No-one's eating these either.

Local food types (rice, noodles, veg, SE Asian fruits) are ridiculously cheap
in Cambodia, though could still very well be expensive in comparison to the
wages..

edit: reading further, I'm not sure they've sourced those figures well at all,
they don't ring true. 0.43€ for a bottle of water? Come on, that's nowhere
near the local price unless you're buying it at your western hotel

~~~
brazzy
Nitpick: Because Cambodia was part of French Indochina, bread (specifically
baguette bread) is in fact an everyday staple food to Cambodians, at least in
the cities.

------
unimportant
Sweatshops themselves aren't the problem, but rather the fact that the game is
rigged against the average person.

They could just farm self sustainably, however they lack the knowledge and
large landowners own the land. They also tend to have too many kids as well.

You can choose between being a peasant that is given some land to work as
farmland in exchange for a shack to dwell in and some very basic food or be
slightly less worse off in a sweatshop. You get fucked either way and there is
no way out as education is a joke in cambodia and the like and there is no
industry to employ any higher educated people to begin with.

------
known
Unlike Capitalism, Globalization is Zero-sum WITHOUT
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income)

~~~
tim333
Actually I think you'll find Globalisation is not zero sum. It hasn't made
ordinary people much better off in the west but has transformed living
standards in places like Asia.

------
sleepyhead
I lived in Phnom Penh where this was filmed. The trucks carrying workers at
the end of the day is a normal sight in the outskirts of the city. The average
pay for this type of job is about $100 depending on how much extra overtime
you put in.

How to fix it? I have some ideas but that would be on a much smaller scale.
Basically a more direct model. The fashion industry needs to be disrupted and
consumers must get more information about how brands produce clothes.

The problem today is that the government in Cambodia is extremely corrupt.
They can't be relied on to improve conditions or put up the minimum wage (well
they have a little bit but it is still under what can be considered a liveable
wage). The big brands however point the finger at the government (H&M, Nike,
Puma all put out press releases that blame laws and government practices).
They say it is the job of government to improve. They sit in their nice
offices in New York and Stockholm, in cities that were built over a long time
with a long history of democracy and with a society that was built bit for
bit. That took a long time. It is incomparable to the state of Cambodia (which
started on a blank slate 30 years ago or so). Thus the government there is not
qualified to make the required changes. The brands however are. They are in
countries with good laws and fairly decent labour practices. They should take
responsibility. They should not hide behind their suppliers. They can easily
define contracts that require suppliers to have better minimum standards and
wages for workers. It would not mean much difference in profits for these
companies. A lady makes a shirt and earns $3/day, does it really matter if she
is paid $5/day? Would the $50 shirt cost much more at the store? Nope.

I think the most pragmatic solution is that developed countries introduce
taxes for clothes that are not ethically produced. That $15 t-shirt from H&M
should be $17 and with $2 clearly labeled as non-ethical tax on the price tag.

Also I see some commentators here saying it's much better to work in a factory
than to work on the rice fields. 20 years ago you could earn enough as a small
farmer. Today that is not the case. Also the rising cost in Cambodia and
elsewhere makes the small pay even more a problem than before. The workers
earn $100. Rent is easily $30. I used to eat lunch at the market every day in
Phnom Penh. It was about $1.50 for noodle soup. You can get a cheaper meal
(I'm white and I added some better quality meat). But add that up. And
consider you need to buy a towel. That's easily $4. A new pan? $5 for a
cheaper one. I lived in Phnom Penh in 2012 and then in 2014. Even I as a
foreigner noticed the inflation.

------
RaffRaff
That's why I keep clear of "ecommerce import from China" businesses.

I just cant do it knowing people suffer while I profit

~~~
pagnotta
They will suffer more without the job. You think not buying from them will
help them...how?

~~~
kylebrown
Buying fair trade supports an alternative over the status quo.

------
dandare
And the solution to the problem of poverty in undeveloped nations is.... ?

(hint: it's not aid or communism)

~~~
the_af
1- Why not communism? Does the average worker in a communist country live
_worse_ than a sweatshop worker?

2- Why not aid? Bill Gates, someone who I'm not particularly fond of, claims
it works:
[http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023041494045793245...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304149404579324530112590864)

Note I'm not necessarily advocating either of the above options. I'm just
surprised at how persistent this belief in the properties of Free Trade is.

------
beseth
Here is the answer of an capitalist:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZS...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZSnUBzzH5_4#t=236)

------
beseth
Here is the answer of a capitalist:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZS...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZSnUBzzH5_4#t=236)

------
pablovidal85
We are the puppet people, put it on our TV, it's true. Sorry but the people
that really care about these problems are anywhere but crying on TV.

------
cpursley
Idk, still beats wallowing around in the mud waiting for UN handouts. Europe
and developed Asia have all been through this stage of development. It's what
it takes to modernize _.

_ * I'm not arguing for abuse or child labor of course. There are limits.

~~~
simondelacourt
I don't think this is a stage of development. It is a business concept. To
keep some rich we need a poor majority. It is not that complicated. We like 6
new fashion collections a year, we like the primark for selling it for
virtually no money, we like big brands advertising. We just dig cheap crappy
fashion, and more over we dig not paying the full price.

I always find it interesting if people attribute poverty to a stage of
development. That just does not work. It is not something you go through, and
in the end we all come out richer. It is far more part of the system, it is
not a country being going through infancy or puberty waiting to mature. We
benefit so much from their poverty.

~~~
cpursley
What's the alternative for us and them?

------
pweissbrod
any link for those of us that refuse to install adobe flash?

------
mkaroumi
Hey,

Swedish guy here. Any link to a non-Norwegian page with this content?

~~~
unwind
The text on the page is mostly English.

Also it's kind of funny that you should ask, since as a Swedish person, you're
probably better-equipped than the majority of HN readers to understand a few
words of Norwegian. :)

Here's a trailer, with English subtitles:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SCHfV97D7I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SCHfV97D7I).

------
chippy
In terms of a large profit making company, the company has to make ever
increasing profits for the shareholders or else it becomes pretty much
illegal. Thus, currently these conditions are necessary, there is nothing to
stop them, because to stop them means that a corporation is not operating
properly. It is necessary because to not allow it means that a corporation is
behaving badly. Like it or not, and in this example most of us hate it, a
corporation has to make every effort to increase profit and decrease waste.

How do we change it? As consumers we make it clear to these companies that
it's not on. We vote with our money. But the tried and tested solution is via
our politicians. We have to make it possible for our corporations to improve
the conditions of their suppliers and not incur the wrath of their
shareholders.

edits - wow, please read both paragraphs.

~~~
vetler
> In terms of a large profit making company, the company has to make ever
> increasing profits for the shareholders or else it becomes pretty much
> illegal. Thus, currently these conditions are necessary, there is nothing to
> stop them, because to stop them means that a corporation is not operating
> properly.

This is just bullshit, for lack of a better word. First of all, increasing
profits does not force anyone to do horrible things. Second of all, that a
company has to maximize profits all the time, is a myth:
[http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/8146/230](http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/8146/230)

~~~
chippy
Thanks for the link, I was wrong on the legal point, but it's not all
bullshit.

From that thread: "They don't get punished for not maximizing shareholder
value. But it is true that maximizing value needs to be their goal and they
may not be negligent in the pursuit of that goal."

It also confirms that a corporation must in general make an effort to maximise
profits, if that is what the shareholders want. So, we should make it clear to
the corporations and the shareholders that reducing their profits by
increasing the quality of life of their suppliers is an acceptable loss and
may actually increase value and therefore something that the directors should
aim for. That shareholders have to be confident to tell their directors that
they will not be negligent if they try to improve sweatshop conditions in
their suppliers.

~~~
vetler
It doesn't have to be the shareholders responsibility to tell directors that,
the directors can even just assume that - as they should. Big companies don't
all set out to ruin the world just to make money, and I'm not saying that is
your opinion, but I get the feeling that this is sometimes implied when
discussing how to maximize profits.

Companies even donate money to charity, without any concern for short term
profits.

~~~
pizza234
> Companies even donate money to charity, without any concern for short term
> profits.

"Donating money" is not an indicator of "morality" at all, because it has tax
and PR advantages.

It's not about doing or not doing it, but they fact that business are complex,
and this specific choice doesn't tell anything in general.

Even a, let's say, a fictional company "Momsanto", which corrupts politicians
and violently silences researchers and farmers, surely would have a (again,
fictional) foundation for "making difference in someone else's life" [any
resemblance to real companies is purely coincidental].

~~~
ptaipale
> "Donating money" is not an indicator of "morality" at all, because it has
> tax and PR advantages.

Do you imply that tax and PR advantages completely make it impossible that
some companies still might want to give money away to good causes for moral
reasons?

In other words, you think that moral choices are solely based on money?

