
Engineers in San Francisco Have Mediocre Take Home Pay - mpim
https://www.mytrove.com/ca/san-francisco/cheddar/software-application-developers
======
Afforess
Six figures in San Francisco is a joke. I was working out of Raleigh, NC until
recently, with a take home pay w/benefits around $85k. I calculated to have an
equivalent standard of living and spending money in SF, I would need to take
home around 150-160k. Equivalent! That includes no raise over my previous
position!

Housing was a large part of it, but equally problematic was taxes. The more
you make, each extra marginal dollar is taxed at the highest bracket. So each
marginal dollar earned goes a little bit less far. Combined, the high cost-of-
living and marginal tax rates make SF extremely expensive. I laugh at 120k
offers in SF, that's like making 65k in a reasonable city.

~~~
nwatson
I live in North Carolina (not in the tech-heavy part) and "work in" SF Bay
Area ... it's a good situation.

~~~
morgante
I wish I enjoyed remote work more, since I've managed to get contracts like
that but really missed the feeling of working with a team in an office.

~~~
nwatson
That is the real downside to remote work. I used to enjoy frequent outings and
lunch time with co-workers.

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locust101
This is wayyy off in housing. I don't know anyone who is paying 10k a year for
rent in santa clara county. This is the rent if you are sharing a house with 5
other people in bad parts of san jose. Peninsula rents are almost the same as
SF.

~~~
jkimmel
Likewise for SF, their estimate is $1250/month, which will rent you a garage
or a converted living room with a curtain separating it from the kitchen in
the far reaches of the city.

As a grad student, this is about my budget for housing, and I promise you I'm
not exaggerating.

~~~
aphextron
>Likewise for SF, their estimate is $1250/month, which will rent you a garage
or a converted living room with a curtain separating it from the kitchen in
the far reaches of the city.

You found a garage for $1250? Link? Is there an open house soon?

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bitL
When you realize your take home in Germany is higher than in San Francisco in
absolute numbers despite 50% income tax... Mindblowing.

~~~
tomschlick
> 50% income tax

Thats insane

~~~
jacobush
When you put it like that. But a big chunk of that is (I presume) mandatory
pensions payments? So just a little insane?

~~~
anarazel
45% is the ceiling bracket for income insurance, then there's pension
insurance (~9.x%) capped at ~70k income, unemployement (1.5%) also capped at
70k, solidarity surcharge (up to 5.5%, basically redistribution between parts
of Germany). Health insurance is separate again (up to %7 capped at 50k).

But with that you have free education including college, health insurance
without deductibles & co-payments, continued payment in case of loss of work,
kinda somewhat decent-ish retirment money.

------
andrewmunn
I wish tools like this would account for equity.

Base salary in the Bay area has never been particularly high compared to
comparable cities, but in my admittedly anecdotal experience, The Bay Area has
the highest equity compensation of anywhere in the US.

~~~
nutbutter
But is the equity actually worth anything?

~~~
shawndumas
established companies (FAANG) come as RSUs that vest monthly or quarterly. so
yeah, real money.

~~~
cdkee
You can only sell once a quarter though!

~~~
outside1234
That's only a Google thing. At Microsoft, for example, you can sell all the
time.

~~~
cdkee
There's no trading windows for insiders?

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bradlys
I find this pretty off for silicon valley. <$1000/month for housing? Even with
utilities, this is still nothing. If you added in all of misc, it'd be more
realistic. Wasn't aware that salaries in Seattle had risen to $130k+ so
quickly either. I remember starting at $80k being a good salary there just 3-4
years ago.

~~~
zippergz
I don't know what the average is, but I was making around 130k in Seattle 10
years ago and I don't think I was a huge outlier.

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scarmig
Am I crazy in thinking the listed comp is crazy low?

Not disputing that the COL is too damn high, but the only people I know making
that little are very early in their careers and/or working for a startup, and
that's be valuing their equity at 0 (which is probably an appropriate
valuation).

Or maybe I'm just in a weird bubble.

~~~
mpim
This is based on the latest U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics data:
[https://www.mytrove.com/t/cheddar-
counter/methodology](https://www.mytrove.com/t/cheddar-counter/methodology)

------
trjordan
Sure, living and working in the city sucks. But the Bay Area as a whole? Very
Good.

[https://www.mytrove.com/ca/the-bay-area/cheddar/software-
app...](https://www.mytrove.com/ca/the-bay-area/cheddar/software-application-
developers)

~~~
aphextron
East Bay (El Cerrito/Albany/Berkeley) is where it's at. Great weather, no
suburban sprawl hell, easy commute to anywhere, great food and culture, top
notch schools, decent rents. Every time I try to leave this place I just can't
justify it.

~~~
el_benhameen
Do you rent or own? I've been looking to buy in the East Bay, but it's
becoming extremely difficult to find something that an engineer's salary can
afford that's in a good school district and is of a reasonable size.

~~~
aphextron
I rent in El Cerrito but we've been looking at buying. It's really the best
option around here IMO. Decent 3 bedrooms in a wonderful neighborhood can
still be had for < $700k. Case in point:
[https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/El-Cerrito-
CA/fsba,fsb...](https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/El-Cerrito-
CA/fsba,fsbo,new_lt/house_type/18525815_zpid/51858_rid/1-_beds/1-_baths/37.947141,-122.256289,37.88891,-122.348557_rect/13_zm/)

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neom
The Manhattan one is quite amusing:
[https://www.mytrove.com/ny/manhattan/cheddar/software-
applic...](https://www.mytrove.com/ny/manhattan/cheddar/software-application-
developers)

~~~
jcranberry
I've never seen such bullshit! I live in Chinatown with a 100k salary.
According to this website the median is 111k salary, with 11k discretionary
income.

I have a decent place in Manhattan (Chinatown), which I'm paying $800/mo for
(split with 2 friends), absolutely not paying 5.3k/y for transportation (3
subway cards a month??), and I have NO idea what these mystical $1500/mo
miscellaneous expenses are, unless they could be attributed to savings,
$600/mo on groceries is just feckless profligacy--and $500/mo on utilities???
WTF!???

I have so much discretionary income I literally have nothing to do with it
except save/reinvest. My two roommates constantly make fun of me for being a
spendthrift, but according to this website I must be in the top 25 penny-
pinchers in Manhattan...

------
danielvinson
I find their methodology to be seriously flawed.

It doesn't matter what dataset you are using to base it off of, if you think
that the average person pays $1,263 per year in total healthcare costs you're
crazy. I'm paying something like 3 times that as a very healthy 20-something.

~~~
CGamesPlay
There's probably some bimodality here. Nobody pays 104/mo in insurance but I
bet 50% pay more and 50% pay $0/mo (due to their employer paying it).

~~~
danielvinson
Is it common that employers pay 100% of healthcare costs? I've never heard of
a company doing that outside of big tech companies. I work at a startup and
for us its about 50/50 employer/employee contribution, which is similar to the
deal I've gotten everywhere I've ever worked.

------
soared
Big FYI for all you devs - this is how content marketing is done correctly.
This page is quality content (similar strategies provide useful tools) that is
tangentially related to a companies product/service. BUT there is no call to
action, no pitch, and no mention of the actual company being a company - it
comes off as a publisher.

The benefits to this are: links for SEO, links/blogs/news articles about it,
discussion around the topic, and some percent of users who are interested in
the subject will poke around the site for more info... and they'll find out
this company will store and move your belongings for you.

The best example I can think of is (was) crew.co

[https://crew.co/blog/how-side-projects-saved-our-
startup/](https://crew.co/blog/how-side-projects-saved-our-startup/)

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2pointsomone
So, fun observation. The site estimates the housing cost for year to be ~$18k.
LOL. It's kinda difficult to get a room (in a shared apartment) in an
accessible part of SF at that rate today. I guess it's worse than mediocre.

------
idlewords
Living in San Francisco is a luxury people trade discretionary income for.

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patorjk
According to the "Methodology" section, the data is based on:

> May 2016 Metropolitan and Nonmetropolitan Area Occupational Employment and
> Wage Estimates from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), U.S. Department of
> Labor. Unless otherwise specified, the salary is the “Mean Annual Wage”
> column of the data set.

This data also has a 75th percentile and 90th percentile column. It would be
cool if the visualization worked with those parts of the data too, because the
salary gap between the 50th percentile and the 90th percentile can sometimes
be huge.

------
forkLding
Questions about the data aside, I really like the Data visualization UI and
UX, its very nice-to-use and you play around with it without thinking.

However, whenever it shows "Physics Teachers and Business Teachers" and says
they are for postsecondary, I think they mean professors for college or other
postsecondary education because teachers tend to mislead and bring up images
of highschool teachers instead.

------
Overtonwindow
That's strange. When you click on the next dot over, for The Bay Area, it
jumps to "excellent" with discretionary income of $42,329.

------
throwaway634774
I make $140k in Detroit. With decent 401k benefits, insurance, flex time,
remote twice a week. I'm a programmer working for just a regular company.
Building your typical enterprise CRUD app. I know people making $190k 45
minutes away in Ann Arbor. I've often been tempted by the valley but it's just
not worth it. I'll need to make $250k cash at the very least.

------
emerged
I wound up deciding to live in the midwest while working remotely for
California companies. Now it's as if my salary has gone up by 200-300%. The
midwest gets an incredible amount of hate from west coasters, but meanwhile
I'm living a life which feels like an easy paradise compared to the rat race
back on the west coast.

------
bduerst
Bay Area average apparently has a "Very Good Cheddar" rating

[https://www.mytrove.com/ca/the-bay-area/cheddar/software-
app...](https://www.mytrove.com/ca/the-bay-area/cheddar/software-application-
developers)

------
subrat_rout
The trove data for housing is way off. Especially for cities like NY or SF.
Where in San Francisco can you find a place to rent for $18k/year or
$1500/month?

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tanilama
Well, that is how it is. Meaning a developer, if comparing to the local
standard is a normal job that nothing to envoy about.

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pmdev03
Looks like Seattle it the best for software engineers? Don't care how much I'd
make in Seattle.. I'll pass on flannels and death cab for cutie.

~~~
machrider
The cost of living is about to skyrocket in Seattle, if I had to guess.

------
angersock
God bless Texas.

(please don't come here and screw it up for us.)

~~~
dmode
You will be ok. I have no intention of moving there

