
What It’s Like to Need Hardly Any Sleep - jgrahamc
http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/02/what-its-like-to-need-hardly-any-sleep.html
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pavel_lishin
> * “Cells don't sleep,” he said in his most quoted anti-sleep rant. “Fish
> swim in the water all night. Even a horse doesn't sleep. A man doesn't need
> any sleep.”*

> _Yes. Even when my kids sleep crazy amounts of hours I get annoyed.
> Teenagers can sleep probably for 12 hours straight, and I get so annoyed
> because I think they are wasting their lives. Why are you wasting your life
> sleeping? There are so many things that you could be doing. That’s how I see
> it. So, I don’t like them sleeping for longer than necessary because they
> are wasting their lives. That’s always been my thing. You have plenty of
> time to sleep when you die. You might as well embrace life._

It's great that you can get by on four hours, but I'm not wasting my life when
I get nine or ten hours of sleep, because without that sleep, I'd be miserable
and unproductive. A life spent tired, that's a life wasted.

~~~
monochr
This is the typical great man myth that gets promulgated by their publicists
to make them seem more than human. As a rule they are either out right lies or
greatly exaggerated, other myths of this type is Kennedy reading 1000 words
per minute, Napoleon listening to reports, reading a letter and dictating laws
all at the same time, or Stalin single handedly designing the first five year
plan.

~~~
Immortalin
For speed readers, 1000 wpm is actually pretty standard.

~~~
monochr
Yeah, no:
[http://www.slate.com/articles/briefing/articles/2000/02/the_...](http://www.slate.com/articles/briefing/articles/2000/02/the_1000word_dash.html)

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NathanKP
I really wish I had that trait, but instead I have the exact opposite. I often
need about twelve hours to feel fully rested, and even then usually require a
coffee or two to feel productive. Some people suggested recently that maybe I
have sleep apnea, so I'm planning to try a sleep study sometime soon.

~~~
electronvolt
I have moderate-to-severe apnea, but nothing that might have caused it (not
overweight, don't smoke, etc.) and didn't find out until I was 21.

Using a CPAP is a night and day difference--whereas I used to require 10-12
hours to function without randomly falling asleep if I sat still for too long,
and now I can get 6-8 without any issues and I'm more alert, have a better
mood, etc.

I wouldn't have known except that my ex-girlfriend noticed that I wasn't
breathing when I was asleep and got me to see a doctor about it. Apparently it
had been going on for years and years--I asked other people who had seen/heard
me sleep from 15 onwards and a lot of them also had noticed it but hadn't said
anything.

If you think you have apnea, sleep studies suck to go through ("here, lets
stick a bunch of monitors on you and then let you try to sleep"), but it was
entirely worth it. If it's at all economical to do one, I'd suggest looking
into it: even if they don't find apnea they might find something else.

~~~
makeitsuckless
Same story, only found out much later in life (around 40).

The thing is, now I can easily get by on 4 to 6 hours of sleep, and unless I'm
truly physically and mentally exhausted I'm not even able to sleep for 8 hours
because I'll be wide awake after 6 hours, tops.

I have no idea whether that is my natural sleep pattern, or just because I've
spent decades "training" myself to get by on less sleep because of the apnea.

~~~
hessenwolf
35, and I get my preliminary overnight monitor on Monday. I usually sleep 6
hours, waking up every 90 minutes to check on the world, but I find it really
hard to get out of bed.

I recorded myself using snorecycle. Yeah, so, my snoring gets progressively
louder, until I stop breathing and wake myself up. :( It's only taken my wife
three years to convince me.

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derefr
So, the only thing I actually wanted to get from the article isn't in there:
what does this genetic mutation _do_? What does the responsible gene code for?

~~~
gwern
That's what the citations are for...

"This variant reduced the ability of BHLHE41 to suppress CLOCK/BMAL1 and
NPAS2/BMAL1 transactivation in vitro."

What do BMAL1/2 actually _do_? Then you're getting deeper into the weeds and
will need to look at references like
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARNTL](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARNTL) or
[http://genesdev.cshlp.org/content/28/1/8.shortJerome](http://genesdev.cshlp.org/content/28/1/8.shortJerome)
(Looks like they're responsible for kicking off a circadian cycle.)

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evincarofautumn
Unless I’m sick, I need about 5 hours a night—typically a few hours after
midnight, and another couple after dawn. Like the woman in the article, I also
don’t get hangovers beyond a mild headache and tiredness. It doesn’t make me
significantly more productive, but it does give me more time to enjoy life,
which is not nothing.

I like having people over for parties, because I can get up before everyone
else and make breakfast, and people are always really appreciative. :)

~~~
mikegioia
I also get about 5 a night. The best part, to me, is the 11pm to 2am "shift"
when I just read stuff online, or watch videos. I wouldn't say I'm any more
productive because of the fewer hours of sleep, but it's those extra 3 hours
at night that really lets me learn and discover new things.

~~~
lmnm
I absolutely feel the same way. While those extra few hours aren't necessarily
used "efficiently" in a work/study manner, I find I can focus better during
the day knowing I'll have time to have plenty of unstructured time later on.

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apetresc
> Nobody knows exactly how many true “short sleepers” exist, but estimates put
> it at one percent of the population.

So the first documented case of it was in 2009, but "estimates" think it
affects 1/100 people? Who can take these numbers seriously?

~~~
ChikkaChiChi
Agreed. Far too many weasel words in one statement.

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mooreds
Fascinating. Made me think of 'Beggars in Spain', an SF series that is well
worth the read:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beggars_in_Spain](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beggars_in_Spain)

~~~
spacehome
Interesting.

But the pre-existing variance in people's productivity is already an order of
magnitude or more. A 50% bump might be significant, but it's hard to imagine
it would be society-changing.

~~~
mooreds
Well, it's actually a 100% bump, right?

'Sleeper': 8 hours working, 8 hours taking care of life (eating, etc), 8 hours
sleeping.

'Sleepless': 16 hours working, 8 hours taking care of life.

I agree with your point though: focus, environment, and pre-existing advantage
probably cause far more variation in productivity than 100%.

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lmnm
I've always been fascinated by discussions surrounding the varying amount of
sleep necessary for different individuals. I feel like "unlocking" the secrets
of these folks who can get by on such little sleep would do wonders for
humanity, though I'm unsure if that is even within our abilities.

As for a personal anecdote, I've experienced both ends of the sleep spectrum:
in the past couple years I've had two 4-month long periods where I required
little to no sleep to function as well as I ever have in both work and social
settings. My personal belief is that this can be chalked up to a healthy diet,
constant exercise, and an abundance of happiness. Also, I caution those who
pine for the ability to function on less sleep: as the lady in the article
mentions, it can absolutely cause issues in one's relationships. Other than
that however, all positives in my experiences.

On the flip side, I've dealt with multiple bouts of varying degrees of
depression that have caused my daily hours of sleep to skyrocket to ~10-12
hours/day. After experiencing both ends of the required sleep spectrum I'm
convinced that, at least for me personally, happiness and health plays a huge
role.

~~~
methodover
That sounds like bipolar disorder to me: Long cycles of happiness (euphoria),
energy and hyperactivity (lots of exercise), and a decreased need for sleep,
followed by depression, lack of energy, lethargy (no physical activity, less
exercise), and increased need for sleep. That's the textbook definition of
bipolar disorder, I think.

~~~
Dylan16807
Wait, does it change how much sleep you feel like getting, or does it actually
change the amount of sleep you need? If it's the latter I'm surprised I
haven't heard about study into it.

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nicholasdrake
i used to need 8-10 hours but after reading tim ferriss' 4 hour body i nap 20
minutes 2/3x a day at my desk and only need to sleep 4/5 a night which is
saving me 4/5 hours a day of sleep time.. i don't feel fabulous when i wake up
lol, but i feel the same as if i had slept more..
[http://www.4hourlife.com/2012/04/29/become-uberman-sleep-
lik...](http://www.4hourlife.com/2012/04/29/become-uberman-sleep-like-da-
vinci-the-polyphasic-sleep-cheat-sheet/) only problem is culturally workplaces
aren't very accepting of polyphasic sleep patterns that involve napping in the
office lol

~~~
chillacy
From what I understand, polyphasic sleep has fallen out of popularity lately
due to lack of evidence that it actually works better than a "normal"
schedule. Even this author you linked to only does a light 20 min siesta..
barely even biphasic (if you're not hitting REM sleep in your nap).

Counterpoint: [http://greenminimalism.com/2013/06/15/is-polyphasic-sleep-
he...](http://greenminimalism.com/2013/06/15/is-polyphasic-sleep-healthy-
dangers-of-polyphasic-sleep/)

~~~
1123581321
I think it's merely been relegated to its proper place. I think both 'sides'
in the debate now will often agree that segmented sleep provides more hours in
a 24-hour period in exchange for fewer daylight hours and reduced ability to
do difficult mental work in those hours. Another way to look at it is that
some people should sleep a lot and work for short, concentrated periods and
others should work a lot and sleep in short, concentrated periods, and each of
those two patterns is suited to a different type of work. At least, that's
what I've seen in the community/meta-community.

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coldcode
I cannot relate, I need 7+, but I can imagine how much more you could get done
if you had 20 hours a day to do it in. My grandmother was a short sleeper, she
usually slept from midnight to 4am her whole life.

~~~
yulaow
Was your grandma a caffeine addicted? My mom is sleeping, since when I
remember, just 4-5 hours each night but she also takes 3 strong coffees during
all the day and if she forget even one she instantly feels much more tired
than usual.

A shame I can't try because I am intolerant to caffeine that basically causes
my stomach to hurt for hours... I would really like to halve my sleep need.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Caffeine definitely cannot reduce your need for sleep long-term. Your body
habituates to it, like any stimulant; after a while, the caffeine isn't making
you more alert than normal, but it's required just to get up _to_ normal. If
your mother gets by on 4-5 hours a night long-term, it's because she's a
natural short sleeper, not because of the caffeine.

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jbardnz
I am not a short sleeper, in some aspects I wish I was. The advantages seem
huge as you would be able to be a lot more productive. I wonder though if the
personality traits of restlessness and not being able to switch off are common
among all short sleepers?

~~~
meowface
It's possible there is one, but I think I'm a counter-example. I have anxiety
issues and also am restless and have great difficulty "turning off", but I
need 8-9 hours every single night to be functional at all. Unfortunately, the
anxiety just results in insomnia and me feeling terrible when I wake up and
even more terrible all day long. I sure would love to have the anxiety and
insomnia without the "feeling awful" part after getting insufficient sleep.

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Raphmedia
It is also important to note that you probably aren't a mutant. If you keep on
having a very short amount of sleep, your body will stop telling you that you
are tired, but you will still get the back effects of sleep deprivation.

~~~
sbov
Yeah. I think the most important points from this article in identifying if
you are, indeed a mutant are: she doesn't fight sleep, and she doesn't feel
tired, on 4 hours.

When describing your short sleep patterns, if you use the words "I can
function at...", you probably aren't one of these people. "Can function at"
does not seem to be the same thing she is experiencing.

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alfiedotwtf
This explains my whole family. It was common while growing up that the whole
family was awake doing random things till 12-1am every day, even on school
nights.

These days, I'm in bed no earlier than 12am, and wake up at 5am for work.
Forwarding this article to my wife because she needs at least 9/10 hours and
thinks I'm crazy.

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readymade
Sleep is one of the best parts of life, why cut it short?

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brotoss
Kind of crazy how little is known about sleep in the scientific community. The
answer right now to "why" we need to sleep doesn't go much deeper than
"because we get tired"

~~~
Retra
As a general rule, when somebody says "nobody knows X", they are almost
certainly wrong. There are 7+ billion people on this planet. Someone probably
knows something you don't, for just about any common language X you could
form. (They just haven't told _you_ about it!)

For instance:

[http://www.sciencemag.org/content/342/6156/373](http://www.sciencemag.org/content/342/6156/373)

Scientists don't just sit around twiddling their thumbs all day...

~~~
NobleLie
I've heard of both of these theories (cleanse and consolidation) but it's kind
of strange how the first sentence of the abstract is "The purpose of sleep
remains mysterious." If the researchers have any confidence in their work, why
are they using this language? Why not "sleep is not as mysterious" or "sleep
is no longer mysterious"?

~~~
Retra
My point was more that _somebody_ very likely knows the truth (and believes it
to be the truth,) even if we don't know who that person is.

~~~
Dylan16807
That is a foolish assumption.

It's also a very weak definition of "know".

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rachelandrew
I rarely sleep more than 6 hours, never have. I wake up at 5am naturally and
I'm awake. There is definitely a difference between people who are "getting
by" on little sleep, and those of us who need less than the "usual" amount. I
seem to need less as I get older, and less the more exercise I'm doing (I'm a
distance runner) which doesn't seem to make much sense, but there you have it!

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guiambros
Even if you happen to not need much sleep, you ought to at least consider that
it _may_ have adverse long term effects to your brain and body.

This Quora answer [1] summarizes it well.

[1] [http://www.quora.com/How-do-CEOs-who-sleep-for-
only-4-5-hour...](http://www.quora.com/How-do-CEOs-who-sleep-for-
only-4-5-hours-daily-manage-to-function-and-run-multi-million-dollar-
companies/answers/7495968)

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legohead
occasionally I'll need to stay up really late, or for some random reason I'll
wake up really early (sound outside wakes me up), and I'll actually feel more
refreshed with 3-4 hours sleep than a full night. is this a common experience?

I've never purposely tried sleeping only 3-4 hours.

~~~
sedachv
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep)

I use this pattern when I have a lot of work to do outside of my day job.

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jaequery
I've been having a real hard time getting any kind of prolonged sleep (4 hours
or more) the past few months.

I'd sleep and always wake up after 3 hours. Then I can't go back to sleep.
This been going on for the past 4 months. It is very frustrating.

Is there anyone else that experience this?

~~~
gdubs
When you're overtired, it can actually be harder to sleep. I found this out
when we had a baby -- longer, better quality naps during the day lead to
better, longer sleep at night.

The root problem could be delayed sleep-phase syndrome. [1]

1:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder)

~~~
sanoli
I also noticed this with my kids. The better they sleep, they better they will
sleep the next sleep.

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blergh123
I'd be really interested to know how this compares with people who have
insomnia, or trouble sleeping in general.

Is the difference just that these people can wake up feeling rested, whereas
people with insomnia are always tired?

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swah
I could have those 3 hours back w/ a shorter commute...

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Sevzi
The chemicals modafinil and armodafinil subjectively let me get away with a
bit less sleep without the various consequences of caffeine. Used with enough
sleep, they enter the realm of transhuman cognitive enhancer.

~~~
marct
I've been trying to source modafinil in Canada. I hope to try an experiment
once I acquire some.

