
Is there such a thing as a sustainable todo system? - ryanwaggoner
http://ryanwaggoner.com/2010/10/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-sustainable-todo-system/
======
toast76
This is a really interesting problem.

Here is my solution: I've resorted to sticky notes placed semi-organised on my
wall next to my computer. They're roughly organised by priority, and roughly
by project.

There are a few reasons why this system is awesome:

1\. High priority tasks cannot be easily "shifted down" to put something else
above them. This forces me to deal with oldest first.

2\. The only way to make something even higher priority is to go further up
the wall. There is a limit to how high I can reach, therefore I have to be
REALLY sure about putting something high on the list.

3\. I'm using cheap sticky notes. The glue lasts about 3 weeks before it falls
off the wall. If I haven't done it in that time, it's not going to happen. It
also obviously wasn't that important and deserves to be on the floor.
Occasionally, I go and pick up the drop offs and double check if I really
should've done anything with them.

4\. It's tactile. When something is done, there is nothing more rewarding that
taking down the note, screwing it up and throwing it in the bin. TAKE THAT
TASK!!!

~~~
prawn
Number 3 is awesome.

(Half seriously) you should pad out your approach, make it an ebook and try
selling it to people. It's novel enough that it just might work.

~~~
toast76
I'll write it if you promise to buy it :P

~~~
prawn
I've already read your summarised version. ;)

------
swombat
My most effective and sustainable todo system has, so far, been a notebook
with a new page for each day. On the evening the previous day (ideally...
sometimes on the morning of the current day) I look at the previous day's
tasks and copy the uncompleted ones onto a new page, then add to that page as
I go along.

This forces me to review and eliminate tasks that I blatantly won't do (self-
cleaning) and keeps track of other relevant tasks (no lost tasks). Works
great.

When overworked, as another layer, I add a number next to the tasks, 1, 2, 3
or 4. This allows me to more easily ignore the 3's and 4's until the 1's and
2's are completed.

~~~
naner
I was going to say the same thing. I tried org-mode (I'm a heavy Emacs user)
and it didn't stick, I think the simplicity is what makes this doable. Also I
have a nice history of tasks and it isn't tied to my computer or mobile
device. I don't have to worry about syncing or backup or files piling up never
to be read again or any of that garbage.

If you have tasks for managing your todo list on your todo list then it is too
complicated.

------
jakevoytko
I work in an environment with unstable plans (computer vision research lab),
so my TODO system has become very dynamic over time. The basics:

 _org-mode._ org-mode is a wonderful TODO extension for Emacs. I add a new
file to org-mode's global TODO list every day. I tried keeping individual
project files, but using tags to separate projects ended up being the least-
effort system.

 _Break up tasks._ As with code, work can be decomposed into small, orthogonal
tasks. Take a small amount of time to enter a TODO item for each one. I'm only
human - I'd much rather start a small task than a large one. If I discover I
finished something, but there's not a corresponding TODO item, I add it and
close it. Why deprive myself the satisfaction?

 _Lazy update._ Since I have several small tasks that represent a job to be
done, I only revisit my TODO list every few hours for cleanup (and to ensure I
haven't forgotten anything). Touching my TODO list whenever I do something is
overkill.

 _Loose prioritizing._ I track the importance of each line-item by Low,
Medium, and High priority. 80% of items are Medium priority, and most of the
rest are High. These are just suggestions: for instance, I pick short Medium
tasks before starting long High priority tasks.

 _Relentlessly prune._ Plans change. Just delete irrelevant or items from your
list and move on. I tracked closing information on line-items for over a year
until I realized that I had never needed to go back to look at the resolution
information or start/end timestamps. Over a year after I stopped, I still
haven't.

 _Know when to let go._ When something needs to be done yesterday, someone
asks every 30 minutes if you are finished. You don't need other reminders.
Skip the TODO list and get to work.

------
metamemetics
voting for plain text or pen and paper. What I've found most helpful is
writing down 'predicted time required' next to each task. And then if you run
over adding an additional prediction next to it. And if you run under writing
how long it actually took. I quickly realized my poor time management was due
to habitually underestimating the time certain types of tasks take me to
complete.

An additional benefit is if you ever need to establish billing or sweat equity
valuation, you already have a log of time put into everything.

~~~
udfalkso
The best compromise that I've found between plain text and a structured to-do
sytem is TaskPaper. It's more or less a to-do enhanced notepad and it's the
only to-do system that I've manged to stick with for more than a week. I think
it's because it's so free-form that it works for me. Like a dynamic outline.

If you're a mac person, it's worth checking out:
<http://www.hogbaysoftware.com/products/taskpaper>

~~~
metamemetics
On ubuntu. I actually just created a simple To Do App using web.py and mysql,
might throw it on github this weekend.

~~~
RyanMcGreal
Please do!

------
alexfarran
"I’ve talked to a lot of people who have skipped from todo system to todo
system, getting an initial high of productivity and then moving on. Maybe
that’s just how it has to be; perhaps our brains are wired such that we need
to vary our routines and methodologies or we slack off over time."

Sounds like the Hawthorne effect
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect>

"The Hawthorne effect is a form of reactivity whereby subjects improve or
modify an aspect of their behavior being experimentally measured simply in
response to the fact that they are being studied, not in response to any
particular experimental manipulation."

------
runjake
I use Notational Velocity (<http://notational.net>) and a single text note
within it (I get to it by typing "todo"). I have sections for "this week",
"next week", "this month", "next month", and "someday".

If I weren't using NV, I'd use Notepad.exe or TextMate or TextEdit. I wouldn't
use anything more complex than those.

I adjust things on my (multiple times a) weekly review. Stuff that needs to be
done on a specific day goes on my calendar accordingly.

I carry around a small stack of 20 or so plain index cards for on-the-go. If I
come up with an idea or a todo, I write it down on the card in biggish
letters, any notes about the task or idea also go on the card. One card per
idea or task.

When I'm near my inbox, I chuck the cards I wrote on in there, or I
immediately file them in Notational Velocity.

I've tried and wasted money on paper day planners, Things, Omnifocus,
Evernote, Google Tasks, GTD Tracks, RTM, etc. I found they were all too
cumbersome and annoying to set up and maintain.

Likewise a paper list by itself was too much crossing out, moving around and
erasing.

I advise people to stay away from 43Folders, Lifehacker, and the like to avoid
the "GTD method of the week" distractions. Use what works and is not a pain in
the ass.

~~~
chime
I created <http://untodos.com> last year with similar groupings
(today/soon/whenever). I used it for about a year but stopping using it
because adding/removing tasks individually was too much work and I much
preferred managing nested todo lists in a text-editor with code-collapse
features (so I could hide entire sublists). Earlier this year I created
<http://bulletxt.com> (text-editor like todo/outline app with collapse) and
have been using it ever since. I really need to finish it up because quite a
few HN people have been using it lately.

Funny you mention GTD. I'm driving across the country and earlier today
started listening to the GTD audiobook. Five minutes in, I stopped it. Just
not my cup of tea honestly. I listened to Feynman and Kurt V. instead.

~~~
mise
Bulletxt isn't responding. I hope for you that that signifies good demand from
HN.

~~~
chime
It appears to be a network issue at my host. Sorry about the downtime. I'm
certain it will be resolved shortly.

------
Figs
I use a whiteboard in my room. I write down the things I have to get done over
the next week or so, and erase them when I finish them. I can't forget about
it, or misplace it, or forget my login since it's right in front of my bed. I
don't write every little task down, but rather general things like "CS
Assignment #2", "Time Card", "Call <so and so>" and due dates, if relevant.

A more extended version, if you want to take the time to do it, could include
sending yourself an email at the end of the week with what you did, what you
plan to do, and your problems. That way you can keep track of what you've
accomplished, and your plans. It's pretty helpful if you need to go back and
figure out when you did something or where your time's going.

But if you're having trouble with planners and stuff already, just try using a
whiteboard.

~~~
warp
A whiteboard sounds great, you know you have too many things on your list if
it doesn't fit on your whiteboard anymore :)

------
philwelch
_In GTD, anything that requires more than 1 action is a project, so
implementing a minor feature for a client that takes an hour might actually be
a project, because it has multiple steps. When I say “high-level project”, I
mean collections of GTD-projects around a related node, like building a web
application for a client, or learning iOS._

This "feature" of GTD is what finally got me off of it after years as a
religious OmniFocus user. It might be a fantastic system for managers, but
_most_ of my tasks require multiple, discrete actions and I don't break them
down that way until I start into the task. I schedule tasks in terms of hours
and afternoons, GTD seems better suited for tasks in the range of minutes.

~~~
jorleif
I've had this experience as well doing research. GTD is great for doing many
small tasks that are hard to remember, but I always seem to have tasks that
are hard to break up. Something like "Make machine learning method X work for
data Y". Sure there are lots of mechanical things like importing/exporting
data that are easily tracked GTD style, but then there is the core problem,
that is very difficult to break up ahead of time.

~~~
mgkimsal
I'm in a similar boat, and I also often find that figuring out _what_ the
larger task needs to be broken up in to _is part of the process_. I don't know
all the steps until I'm partway through the process in the first place.

This is similar to a problem I have delegating tasks. Not always, but often by
the time I detail out things that need to be done, and how to do them, for
someone else with less experience, I could have just _done_ the work faster.
In the short term this is incredibly frustrating, and I balance that out by
telling myself that over the long haul, getting others up to my level on
certain tasks will mean I don't have to do it at all. But determining when to
delegate and when to do, with real world deadlines involved, is stressful.

------
nzjames
My issue with GTD and trying to use a todo system is there seems to be an
assumption that you are able to quantify the time/effort to do each of your
daily tasks.

Developing software and solving problems all day I can't often gauge by
looking at a list how long different tasks are going to take or how much
they'll make my head hurt.

I can do the straight forward things quickly, I try to stay on top of things I
need to do but have been putting off. But I always seem to get stuck and fill
up todo lists with thing's I've go no idea how to get off the lists and I
don't believe it is as simple as breaking them up into actions.

I don't need a method for managing tasks, I need something to structure and
support arbitrary problem solving.

~~~
jorleif
Exactly, there would need to be something like GTD for problem-solving. E.g.
similar to the two-minute rule, one would have something like the two hour
rule: "If you can't solve the core problem in two hours, ask someone for
help".

------
ChristianMarks
I use a hosts file of ad site domains aliased to localhost. A web server on my
machine redirects the default page at localhost to my to-do list on
<http://rememberthemilk.com>. In addition, I use OpenDNS to block distracting
sites, and redirect block.opendns.com to localhost, which is then redirected
to my to-do list.

~~~
prawn
Remember that add-on that replaced web ads with fine art? Makes me think that
someone should make an add-on that replaces web-ads with things that you need
to do in large type.

I wouldn't know how to make it, so someone's welcome to run with the idea if
they think people might use it.

~~~
ChristianMarks
I had thought of doing this also, and a few people to whom I showed the system
to mentioned a Firefox add-on that substitutes art for advertisements.

It bothers me that personal computers replicate the internal chatter of the
mind. The web itself seems designed to prey on human weakness, to encourage
wilfing through the Internet and short-term gratification, and to discourage
learning and the development of self-control.

------
jfb
I know intellectually that people actually do good stuff with OmniFocus, but
to me the point of keeping a to do list is to reduce friction. And OmniFocus
seems about as bristly and rough a program as I've ever seen. I haven't looked
at it in a while, so maybe it's gotten better, or maybe one really has to have
bought into in the whole GTD mindset to grok it, but even after a week of
trying to come to grips with it, I could make no headway and fled back to org-
mode.

~~~
eru
You can do GTD with org-mode, I heard.

~~~
jfb
Sure. But the big attraction to me is a) it's simple to keep a to-do list and
b) I live inside of Emacs _anyway_.

------
AndrewS
I've tried a number of methods (mostly for work-related todos) and nothing
really worked perfectly. I find that I go through phases of needing a list
versus doing what is on my mind. Each phase can last a week or a month.

My solution is to use a spreadsheet like Excel (or your choice of GoogleDocs,
OpenOffice or other equivalent). I put a cross next to items as I complete
them. When I lose interest in my list it tends to atrophy, but at least my
tasks and accomplishments are still recorded.

If I come back to my spreadsheet after an extended break and it has atrophied
substantially (as in I've completed many tasks without marking them off,
priorities have moved away from uncompleted tasks to new unrecorded tasks
etc), I simply create a new page and copy across old tasks that I still need
to do.

It seems to work quite well for me; it keeps a record of what I've been up to
and what I need to do (when I need it to), and works somewhat like agile
development iterations without me worrying too much about whether I'm doing it
'correctly'.

------
Super_Jambo
My TODO system is more a motivational system than TODO list - I have a text
file in which I record what I'm doing throughout the day with a resolution of
~5mins.

SO I might have:

08:30 - Wakeup, check social messages, read cartoons, breakfast. 08:45 -
Shower, Clean Teeth, Shave.

Things which need doing in the future go at the bottom then when I'm starting
them I can just put the current time on to mark them as current.

At the end of the day I divide the time into useful and non-useful blocks and
calculate a ratio: useful time / time wasted.

It has had some unexpected but good effects, for example I cook myself much
better meals. I know good food makes a difference to me and I allow myself
that as time well spent. Previously I'd have been too worried about not doing
X important thing and so have stressed out and wasted time on facebook
instead.

I'm planning on making a web-app version of this, I'll do a HN post on it if
anyones interested.

------
feral
I just use Google Tasks, and have done so successfully for well over a year.

The feature set is minimal, but improves occasionally. Its very fast to
navigate around with the keyboard shortcuts, and it supports multiple lists. I
tend to make long and short term lists in several categories (work, personal,
hobby, reading).

Most importantly, and I cannot stress this enough - it is always available to
me. It doesn't go missing. It doesn't have synch problems. I can get to it
from any computer or phone I use. The iPhone integration is good. And its
already open in my e-mail window.

The fact that its simple, ubiquitous, and just works, outweighs the advantages
of more feature rich systems, for me, in practice.

Also, if you go to: <https://mail.google.com/tasks/ig?pli=1> you can get a
fullscreen view.

~~~
peter_severin
This

------
robchez
I have used nearly every todo system on the planet, but the best and easiest
for me is the good old todo.txt

1) Place todo.txt into your dropbox folder. 2) Create a shortcut on your
taskbar to the file. 3) Set the file to open on startup.

~~~
seancron
And if you're looking for a command line tool to help manage your todo.txt,
especially when if it's a large list, take at
<http://ginatrapani.github.com/todo.txt-cli/>

------
aiurtourist
Hiveminder (<http://www.hiveminder.com>) is about the only thing I _can_ use
anymore. It's killer feature is its nerd-friendly Braindump syntax for
creating tasks — (Need to keep in contact with Paul? -> ping Paul [repeat 1
month] [hide 1 month]). Use as little or as many of the features you need —
assigning tasks to people, the IM interface, command-line client, one of it's
many APIs, task hiding, repeating, depedent tasks, groups, etc.

GTD is overkill. Just do a braindump with Braindump.

------
Huffers
No-one's mentioned AbstractSpoon's ToDoList yet?

I've been using it consistently for 6 months now. It took a couple of hours to
go through the huge list of options tweaking it to my liking, but it's worth
it.

~~~
pasbesoin
If you're on Windows (or like Wine), it's worth checking out. I've used it
extensively; it hits a sweet spot of quick yet freeform enough to accommodate
different recording requirements. And the developer, Dan, is a quite nice
bloke.

------
iuguy
I've tried all kinds of stuff but I keep coming back to this:

Create a file (mines called todotoday.txt)

Add the following lines:

Now \---

Waiting \-------

Done \----

On the Now area, put everything that needs to be done now. When you're in
progress and stop partway through, put "- X" after the entry to signify that
it's in progress. Once it's complete, remove the hyphen and move the line to
'Done'. If something stalls or is waiting on someone else, move it to
'Waiting'.

It's simple enough for me to keep track of what I'm doing, what I'm chasing
and what I've done.

------
nimms
I think the author is right about us taking too much on. It seems in this day
and age, any extra time that comes from an increase in productivity is
immediately filled with another task, which brings with it an increase in
stress, and the first things to suffer are your ancillary tasks...like keeping
todo lists.

~~~
tarmstrong
What about "this day and age" is causing poor time management?

~~~
jorleif
I think it has to do with more work being "creative", in the Richard Florida
sense, of being problem-solving oriented. It is much easier to estimate the
time needing to complete tasks such as "milk the cows" or "build a shed",
because 1) You do them repeatedly and can learn, and 2) The bottleneck is not
thinking, but the manual labor, or the time it takes to use a given machine.

I might be irrational, but I always estimate problem solving time to be much
smaller than what will actually be needed. Even afterwards, I will usually
consider much of the problem solving time as time wasted, because I should
have been able to do the task much faster.

------
peterbessman
I've been unable to beat a plain old notebook, and not for lack of trying. I
don't think technology has solved this problem yet.

In the digital age, I use a simple "stuff.txt" file in my dropbox folder,
which I manipulate with droptext on my iphone when I'm on the go. It's my
notebook in the cloud, and, for me, it sucks least.

------
stretchwithme
What all these systems lack is an element of responsibility to another person.
When a human calls me to remind me of something, I take it a lot more
seriously than I do a computer or something written on a piece of paper.

What if a system combined the best elements of an automated system with some
human responsibility? What if all of your reminders are text messages from
human experts on the type of task you need to complete? And your replies
actually go back to that person and they are notified of your failures to
reply as well.

People really need help in breaking down goals in the smallest possible tasks,
the approach GTD really encourages. That should be a strong element and human
experts can help with this too.

And your experts can be anywhere in the world these days. Combine GTD and the
Four Hour Work Week.

------
krschultz
I have used Remember the Milk for the last three years. I find that being able
to collect 100% of what I need to do is the most important thing for me. Since
I can access RTM from my desktop, mobile, or even email (maybe even text msg?)
I am almost always able to get the task into it from anywhere.

Once the tasks are in the system, I prefer something computer based so I can
organize it quickly over paper based. I know a lot of the tasks in the system
are not things I'm going to get around to soon, but I'd rather dump them onto
a list and stop thinking about them than have it pop up in my head over and
over.

I do my weekly reviews on friday and monday. I find it helps to do more
frequent, but smaller reviews.

I don't really use any of the advanced features of RTM though (tags, smart
search etc).

------
rakkhi
I know that migrating a todo system is a nightmare and technology is not the
only answer but I have tried Omnifocus and found Remember The Milk
(<http://www.rememberthemilk.com>) much better.

One of the main reasons is that you say: "I don’t use the system consistently
enough to trust it". I found that with remember the milk I have it on my
iPhone so it is accessible everywhere and then syncs to a web accesible site -
so it doesn't matter if you are in front of a MAC with the software installed
or not. For me at least this significantly increased my use of it, and also
because I have my phone in meetings I can add actions directly in, saving the
time transposing from notpad to system.

------
blue1
While not strictly (and not just) a to-do system, I am quite satisfied -so
far- with the Pomodoro Technique. It enhanced my productivity considerably,
and it is also an apparently sustainable todo system.

~~~
hanula
I second that. Pomodoro Technique is dead simple and yet effective! No more
procrastination while doing boring or where-to-start-with-that things. It
really helped me a lot.

You can find out more about this at <http://www.pomodorotechnique.com/>

------
duncanj
I've been finding ActiveInbox (<http://www.activeinboxhq.com/>) pretty useful
as a way of keeping things organized within gmail. It also is agnostic to
google tasks, although I hope they add some more integration there soon. I
think the free version is definitely worth it, and I just upgraded to see if
the scheduling component is worthwhile.

------
geekdesigngirl
I've also tried many different things. I also went the digital route by
creating Zen To Done App (<http://zentodoneapp.com> \- also on github). But
even with designing and developing my own app, I prefer the pen and pencil
method. It's just so much more tactile and responsive. I use a blank moleskine
with a #2 pencil or pen; that's always with me.

------
ja27
Currently going through another effort to fully adopt Scrum at work, I wonder
if there isn't a workable way to apply that to personal productivity. GTD
"projects" are really "product backlog" items that need regular review and
reprioritization. Maybe you could shorten your sprint timeboxes depending on
how busy you are. Do a more-or-less daily Scrum meeting with yourself. And so
on.

------
nreece
I built a minimal and unobtrusive week planner/to-do app out of my own needs
(because nothing else worked for me): <http://weekis.com> (discussion at
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1466775>)

------
dhechols
"The best todo system is the one you use".

For me, that's Things. It's important to have all three interfaces, iPad,
iPhone, and Mac -- because it lets me use them in any context.

Since I always have one of these devices, it's superior to pen and paper. I'm
more likely to use it, and it all syncs rather nicely.

------
jpeterson
org-mode

~~~
ftrain
Seconding that. If you're an emacs user, the way org-mode
(<http://orgmode.org/>) makes it easy to capture and file information is
invaluable, and it allows you to knit together outlines, files, URLs, etc.
into tasks in a very transparent way. The manual is thorough and detailed and
the community is engaged. After two months using it more and more I feel
confident that everything I need is in there, and the agenda view is
fantastic. Plus it's basically one big UTF-8 file. I still procrastinate, but
I definitely know a lot more about the tasks I'm avoiding. Which is major
progress for me.

------
hyyypr
Vim has a nice plugin that allows you to handle a personal wiki. I also use it
to track my tasks.

For example Ctrl-Space checks an item in a bullet list.

<http://github.com/vim-scripts/vimwiki>

------
fuzzmeister
For the past year, Things for iPhone has completely run my life. I think the
key is being able to add todos anytime, anywhere. It has essentially become my
external brain, and one that I am almost never without.

------
d4nt
In the end I wrote my own todo webapp (toodat.com), that fitted in with the
way I think. All the others just seemed to have too much friction. This is one
area where too many features causes real problems.

------
dgant
I've been using Gmail Tasks for about a year now. Its advantages? * I'll
always have it open * I can't help but see it many times per day * It syncs
automatically

------
alexbosworth
We had the same problem and developed an iOS app to solve it:
<http://bit.ly/todoApp> [app store]

------
peter_severin
I use Google Tasks. I use it both from my PC and my phone. I tried many
solutions before and this is the one that worked the longest for me.

------
mkramlich
I'd say that the very name of the GTD system, Getting Things Done gives a big
hint as to what's the "right" system. It's whatever system lets you Get Things
Done. It doesn't have to be some fancy complicated system. It doesn't have to
require any software or notes. Whatever works for you. Try several things, see
what sticks and is effective for you.

Personally I've discovered that a combination of project TODO files, and
general TODO files, plus iCal events, plus my brain, is an effective combo for
me.

------
mkramlich
sometimes the simplest solutions are the best

vi todo.txt

(or TextMate, emacs, etc.)

add dates or category or project names, as desired, etc.

