
Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport - message
http://rt.com/news/snowden-entry-papers-russia-902/
======
300bps
As a U.S. Citizen I support Snowden.

Since 1865, there have been 5,031 deaths and 22,125 injuries caused by
terrorism in the United States. Source:
[http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/wrjp255a.html](http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/wrjp255a.html)

5,000 deaths in 148 years.

In 2011, 32,367 people died in vehicle accidents. Source:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year)

There are all kinds of cancers that "only" kill 1,000 or so people per year
that are deemed not worthy of research because they are so rare. But for
terrorism, we sacrifice nearly inexhaustible supplies of money and time. We
sacrifice our liberty, our privacy. None of it makes any sense.

Terrorism is nothing but fear mongering to effect an increase in power.

~~~
corresation
The fallacy of the comparison to heart disease/cancer/traffic accidents is
that tremendous resources are spent preventing and then resolving _those_
issues as well. They are side effects of living productively, however, so we
can't rationally just ban cars. But we can put hundreds of thousands of
officers on the road, and endlessly add regulations and safety features to our
vehicles, etc.

Snowden is a true hero in the sense of the word -- he is in actual, physical
danger for what he has done for others -- however it is not a reasonable
argument when people argue that terrorism is a non-issue because <body count>
less than <some other body count>.

Do you think those who wish to do you harm don't want to exponentially
increase that count? If various groups could get a nuclear warhead or dirty
bomb, do you really believe they wouldn't use it? If they could sabotage a
major city's water supply or a nuclear power plant, do you think that would be
below them?

This doesn't seek to justify the NSA's all-encompassing surveillance at all
(human intelligence is where it is at), however there is an actual possibility
that they have actually preventing significant events. But the problem with
proactive actions is that no one gives you credit for what didn't happen.

As an aside, to add to what others mentioned about the _enormous_ costs and
economic damage that resulted from 9/11, for instance, another reason
terrorism of even the smallest kind sees a dramatic response is that it is
terrorism -- it terrorizes a whole populace. If someone randomly shoots people
in parks, there will be a massive response because the impact is on everyone.

~~~
dllthomas
There are several issues here. First, the comparisons are often brought up in
response to those claiming - directly or indirectly - that terrorism is an
existential threat to America. The fact that we live with things that kill
vastly more people puts the lie to that.

Second, the issue is the _marginal_ expenditure to _marginal_ deaths. We spend
tremendous effort and some freedom reducing auto accidents, _and we reduce
them substantially_. We don't spend trillions _more_ at this point, because we
don't consider it worthwhile. Before 9/11, we had some level of expenditure
(of effort, money, freedom) on preventing terrorism, and doubtless saw some
reduction in terrorism over what it would have otherwise been, and had it down
to some particular level. Since 9/11, we've been spending that _plus_
trillions of dollars and more of our freedoms, and the most we can _possibly_
do is reduce terrorism to zero - and even if the alternative were a
significant increase in terrorism (something like 9/11 every other day,
instead of - generously - once every several years) there would still be more
room to save lives in these other ways.

Finally, 9/11 had an enormous cost, but a lot of the psychological cost is due
to fear mongering from people who lack the perspective the numbers bring.
Another large portion of that cost is due to lack of resiliency in the
companies with offices in the WTC, and companies doing business with those
companies, &c. The former is addressed through education and leadership, the
latter by encouraging behaviors that will also help in the case of (say) a
massive hurricane. None of this is served by a panicked focus on terrorism.

~~~
chatmasta
So am I, as a citizen, supposed to be content with a 9/11 scale terrorist
attack happening "every few years?" If the idea of that frightens me, am I
just falling victim to fear mongering? Do I "lack perspective?"

~~~
Goronmon
_So am I, as a citizen, supposed to be content with a 9 /11 scale terrorist
attack happening "every few years?"_

We spend $0 a year on defense against alien invasions. Should I, as a citizen,
be content with alien invasions happening every few years?

~~~
mpyne
Has any alien invasion ever happened?

Also, you don't _know_ that DoD spends nothing against alien invasions. :)

------
pavs
What a strange world we live in, when you have to run from the US government
after revealing its illegal and unconstitutional activity and hope for safe
haven in Putin's Russia.

~~~
cadalac
I'm really amazed at how many people complain about Putin. Would you all
prefer to live in the Russia of 50 years ago?

~~~
pavs
The comparison was not between putin's Russia and Russia 50 years ago. It was
between Russia and USA. Despite everything that is fucked up and wrong with US
Government, I would hope (perhaps naively), its still better than Russia in
terms of human rights at least?

~~~
jacquesm
> I would hope (perhaps naively), its still better than Russia in terms of
> human rights at least?

That depends on a lot of factors:

\- are you homosexual

\- ethnically caucasian

\- A subscriber to Islam

\- have a name that matches the name of someone on a no-fly list

\- an 'enemy combatant' (ages 13 and up)

\- an activist of sorts

Or anyone of a hundred other arbitrary criteria. Those could make the
difference between a safe & secure life 'just' being harassed periodically by
people in uniform or spending time in Gitmo or Siberia.

~~~
geoka9
> ethnically caucasian

Actually, that matters in Russia a lot, too. Although, their meaning of the
word is different (Russian Caucasians are people originated from around the
Caucasian Mountains; that's where all the guerilla fighting is currently going
on).

------
Nrsolis
This is a sad day for America.

It's a sad day because a citizen of our nation decided he needed to go to a
foreign journalist instead of one of our own to break this story.

It's a sad day because that same citizen felt like he wouldn't get a fair
trial in our justice system and might be treated the same way Bradley Manning
was until he did get a trial.

It's a sad day because lots of decent, honest people who work in our
intelligence services that are trying desperately to uncover the next possible
attack are going to have to work much harder.

It's a sad day because those people are going to work harder because the
leaders do not feel like they can trust the American people to understand and
decide for themselves how much of their privacy they are willing to trade for
the work that the government's intelligence services do.

It's a sad day because we demonstrated that we care more about the
embarrassment of our duplicity being revealed than in the ideals of our
commitment to civil liberties.

And I'm sad because I'm an American and I love my country and I want it to do
better.

~~~
jgrahamc
_It 's a sad day because a citizen of our nation decided he needed to go to a
foreign journalist instead of one of our own to break this story._

Glenn Greenwald is a US citizen.

~~~
corin_
Not only that, but I believe Snowdon went to WashPo before he went to The
Guardian?

~~~
dllthomas
In some ways, that's just additional motivation for his ultimate decision, and
doesn't really make it less sad.

------
IvyMike
It's kind of amazing that I visited and traversed the entire country by train
(St Petersburg to Vladivostok) all while he was in the airport.

So when everyone is talking about big political issues, all I can think of is
all the mundane stuff he must be putting up with. Like: how much clothing does
he have, and how is he doing laundry? And: Who's paying for his expenses? I
assume his ATM card and Visa aren't good anymore.

Get a blini and some квас at Теремок, Edward. It's pretty tasty.

~~~
arkades
What does Teremok translate as? That was the name of my pre-K.

~~~
xentronium
In common speech, teremok is a small wooden or stone house[1], like the one
from a fairy-tale of the same name [2]. Also a name of a fast food chain.
Blini = pancakes. Kvas = Russian national non-alcoholic (<1%) beverage.

[1]
[http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BC](http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BC)

[2]
[http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BC%...](http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BA_\(%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%B0\))

------
oleganza
Reminder: the real reason Snowden could not walk out of the airport is not
because of some virtual "passport" that US "revoked". It is because there are
real armed obedient guys on the border who would not let Snowden go his way.

This whole story is not about privacy, spying or politics. It is about your
personal inability to choose your phone company, internet provider, or a bank
without confronting armed "state" which dictates what is allowed to you. Don't
like NSA spying through Verizon? Build your own phone company. Oops, there are
feds with an order to "cooperate".

Guns and violence are the problem, not all these abstract inventions like
"rights" or "privacy".

~~~
nodata
Why is "passport" in quotes?

What real armed obedient guys on the border?

~~~
nknighthb
It's Randroid rhetoric. Their entire worldview circles around the perceived
evil men with guns who control our lives.

~~~
snitko
Please come visit Russia without a passport or maybe ask people to come visit
US without one. You'll see how fast those guns can become real. They won't
even let you out of the country if you don't have a passport, which, of
course, only a government can issue.

~~~
nknighthb
Guns are necessary only because there exist violent sociopaths who will use
force to avoid obeying the rules human society has set down. That you fear
them implies you are exactly the kind of person the rules are intended to
protect us from.

~~~
snitko
Why do you want protection from me? I have not given a slightest hint I want
to harm anyone in any way and I don't like violence. Why would I fear rules? I
fear people who want to randomly enforce those rules, justifying by them
anything they want to justify, while themselves avoiding the rules they
created for us. Besides, it is exactly high ranking government jobs that
attract sociopaths, because it becomes really easy to do anything with very
little accountability.

~~~
nknighthb
The guns are not to be used against you unless you are violent. You imply you
obey laws only because there are men with guns. This indicates you will use
violence to avoid obeying laws. That is why I need protection from you.

~~~
alan_cx
"The guns are not to be used against you unless you are violent."

Not true. When you are complying because a gun is present, you fear that gun.
There for it is being used.

"You imply you obey laws only because there are men with guns. "

Which implies the specific law may be wrong.

"This indicates you will use violence to avoid obeying laws. "

This indicates that you don't believe in opposing unjust laws, and shooting
any one who disagrees.

"That is why I need protection from you."

Or from you.

~~~
nknighthb
> _Which implies the specific law may be wrong._

If you believe it's wrong, work to get it changed through non-violent means.

> _This indicates that you don 't believe in opposing unjust laws_

Using violence to oppose laws perceived by you as unjust is wrong so long as
there is a democracy at work. And no, I will not accept the argument that
because the majority happens to disagree with you, the democracy must not be
working.

> _and shooting any one who disagrees._

As far as I can tell, it is you who wants to shoot anyone who tries to enforce
a law you don't like. I call that reprehensible and have no sympathy for you.

~~~
alan_cx
Resisting a law is non-violent, but often gets a violent response from
authorities, with guns. Most existing approved methods to change law simply
dont work for most normal people.

Its not as black and white as you think. If a minority is oppressed by a
majority, then yes, the democracy is broken. The point of democracy is not
legalized mob rule, it MUST protect minorities.

The last bit you just made up.

~~~
nknighthb
> _Resisting a law is non-violent, but often gets a violent response from
> authorities, with guns._

People don't always do the right thing, film at 11. That's not a reason to
eradicate law enforcement nor government as a whole.

> _Most existing approved methods to change law simply dont work for most
> normal people._

Failure to change a law to suit your own whims is not a failure of the
mechanisms. It is your failure to persuade.

> _The point of democracy is not legalized mob rule, it MUST protect
> minorities._

In the end, minorities are only ever protected by consent of the majority. A
society whose people do not believe in rule of law cannot and will not
effectively protect minorities, no matter the governance structure or what any
piece of paper says.

All we can do is try to instill the rule of law, and set up rules and
institutions to protect everyone's rights in anticipation that, at any given
moment, the majority may wish to treat a minority unjustly. We must then hope
that either the majority is persuaded that their hatred does not justify
damaging those rules and institutions, or that the majority view changes
before it succeeds in punching a hole in them.

> _The last bit you just made up._

You made up my alleged desire to shoot people who "resist" laws.

------
znowi
This is good news. I'm glad his airport captivity is finally over. Russia is
possibly the safest place for him at this point. And I'm glad there's at least
one country that can openly stand up against the growing US offense.

Well done, Russia.

------
D9u
Since the NSA says that there are such strict controls on who can access what
sorts of data, how did Snowden gain possession of that data?

If some _private contractor_ can walk out with "thousands of classified
documents" how are we supposed to believe that the NSA isn't lying about their
allegedly _strict controls?_

~~~
powertower
As far as I can tell, he -

1\. Purposely stole 4 laptops to sift through them, looking for anything he
could use.

2\. Never gained any access to the spying data... Only classified documents.

A motivated person like that, not being able to gain (and provide examples to
us) of that spying data, goes right against your second statement.

~~~
RyanZAG
1\. Proving the point. He stole 4 laptops!

2\. He stated he had full access to the system as a contractor and could
lookup details on anyone he wanted. I fully believe him. In his documents he
has examples of the systems being used.

Bonus point. He has yet to release all the documents and has timed his
releases very well. Expect more documents showing better examples to be
released in the future when the US government has stated more lies that he can
disprove.

~~~
powertower
> Proving the point. He stole 4 laptops!

I've been trying to find the source, but I can't, so scratch off my #1.

My understanding of it was the "theft of government property" charge was based
on physical laptops, or their drives, being taken home... But I can no longer
find that source. And all the media reports are alleging/assuming (though
without any references or proof) that that charge is in relation to copying
the data.

And the indictment is sealed.

------
ck2
If it wasn't for Snowden the general population of the US would never be even
having a discussion about widespread national spying on everyone.

They could bury previous whistleblowers and Manning but Snowden has finally
made people sit up and realize while the TSA is groping your genitals at the
airport, the NSA is groping everything else about your life at that same
intimacy.

The sad part is, in 100 years nothing will have changed, it will just be
hidden better and whistleblowers seized before they can get to the press.

------
jacquesm
That's super news, I was concerned that yesterdays release by Greenwald might
imperil Snowdens chances in Russia but it appears that was unfounded.

It's funny how this whistleblower thing might turn into a mirror image of the
torture scheme the CIA employed: the CIA would use other countries to ship
prisoners to to have them tortured/interrogated in ways that the country where
the capture took place or the USA would not condone on their own soil (but for
some magical reason doing it somewhere else or even hiring people to do it
makes it ok).

Now we get whistleblowers that move outside of the jurisdiction of the country
the revelations are about. Cue a Russian whistleblower to flee to the USA for
some symmetry.

------
pvnick
I'll bet Snowden is a Hacker News and Reddit user. I expect that he might read
this thread when he gets to a computer, perhaps even taking the time to do a
Reddit AMA.

If so, Hi Ed! Thanks for doing what you did!

~~~
orblivion
He's always had computer access and did a Q/A on The Guardian a while ago. He
probably tries to keep his profile low altogether.

------
koshatnik
Just as well he's not gay then - Bradley Manning would have found things a bit
harder in this situation

------
kushti
Another day I'm proud to be Russian.

~~~
gadders
And a load of days not to be:
[http://www.sacbee.com/2013/08/01/5614662/russia-will-
enforce...](http://www.sacbee.com/2013/08/01/5614662/russia-will-enforce-anti-
gay-law.html)

~~~
speeder
Actually I like this law, and I know most Russians like too... And it is a
matter of survival to them.

~~~
vdaniuk
Sorry, what? Survival of whom, exactly?

~~~
speeder
Ethinic russians.

They have a very low fertility currently, and there are plenty of correlation
between places that accept homosexuality as normal (instead of only tolerating
it) and low fertility.

Of course, correlation is not causation, but what you think the majority of
russians will think about the subject?

~~~
ArtifTh
Being gay or not is not a choice, so how can fertility rate be linked with
number of homosexuals?

~~~
Demiurge
Being gay is not against the law. I can certainly see propaganda of non
traditional lifestyle would be detrimental to fertility.

~~~
Dewie
Being gay seems as much a lifestyle choice as being straight or being lactose
intolerant.

~~~
Demiurge
Being gay is not the issue, the issue is people not marrying or having kids
and dedicating their lives to it because they see other people not doing the
same. Thinking that's normal is good for the individual, but not good for a
society. US is doing fine in that regard, but Russia is not, population is
declining, people are not marrying or having kids as much as they did before,
and lifestyle propaganda is one of the few things the state can do.

~~~
ArtifTh
[http://visualbooster.com/share/20130801230340534.png](http://visualbooster.com/share/20130801230340534.png)
Here is graph which represents fertility rate in Russia (orange) comparative
to Japan (red) and Germany (blue). It's obviously climbing up since economy
stabilized. Now, would you expect huge increase after anti gay-propaganda law
is established?

~~~
Demiurge
No I wouldn't, not just because of this single law. There also needs to be
actual pro-marriage, pro-kids, anti-drug, anti-promiscuity propaganda at the
same time. There need to be more proactive actions and measures taken, but of
course that's much harder than some blocking measure.

------
rafski
I don't think this was ever posted on HN and happened just 2 months ago. This
is how Russia deals with extradition when the shoe is on the other foot and
they want someone:

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/czechrepubl...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/czechrepublic/10090013/Fuel-
tanker-ordered-to-block-Russian-plane-from-taking-off-at-Czech-airport.html)

Reportedly "dangerous stand-off" meant that Russians pulled guns on the plane
and Czech police withdrew in order not to escalate.

------
thelukester
Remember that we’re wired to respond to personal news. That’s the secret to
Facebook’s and tabloid magazine’s success. So as happy as I am about this, let
it also be a reminder that Snowden's not the story. The fate of the internet
is.

If you haven't read it, this is a great article on the subject:
[http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/jul/28/edward-
sno...](http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/jul/28/edward-snowden-
death-of-internet)

------
glbrew
I don't live in DC but it would be nice if someone could stop by the Russian
embassy and put some flowers in front. It would show that American people
don't necessarily agree with our government and are grateful for the Russian's
support.

------
normalize
I'm flying into Sheremetyevo this Sunday. I was secretly hoping they would be
holding one of those press conferences while I was there, a long shot I know.

ES: if you're reading this- Anything you want from the homeland? I can drop it
off in a secure location, I'll be staying about 100km south of Moscow. /u/@gmx

------
pvnick
This of course happening the day after what was perhaps the biggest revelation
so far, even though Putin said that asylum would be conditional on Snowden
promising "to stop harming the United States." I do not think this highly
symbolic timing was coincidental.

------
mcphilip
For info on next steps in the processing of refugee applicants in Russia:

[http://rt.com/news/snowden-russia-immigration-
asylum-758/](http://rt.com/news/snowden-russia-immigration-asylum-758/)

------
known
Is US Administration seeking peace or obedience from rest of the world?

------
D9u
Contracted rendition team in place...

~~~
outside2344
This is why it is good he is in Russia. In Ecuador, we'd get away with that
shit but there would be a major shitstorm if we go commando into Russia.

~~~
enko
I agree. Russia's perhaps the only country the USA would have serious
reservations about going into. Maybe if it was some unknown defector or
something .. but Snowden? My god, I can't even imagine what would happen.

China would probably be the only credible alternative, but the govt there
doesn't really have the right attitude to give someone like Snowden asylum.

~~~
D9u
You think that there are no mercenaries in Russia or <insert nation here> who
would do the job for the right price?

------
zbowling
413 points, 4 hours, half way down the page? something is a miss with the
voting system on HN.

------
bedhead
Good thing he's not gay.

------
mcovey
God Bless Russia.

------
vasilipupkin
Snowden had me until he traveled to Russia with 4 laptops full of NSA secrets.
I mean no matter how bad NSA is, Putin is 1000 times worse

~~~
vasilipupkin
I stand by what I said even after the downvote :) I don't like what NSA is
doing and I applaud Snowden for exposing their activities. However, people
like Putin is why we have to have the NSA in the first place

~~~
markyc
"people like Putin is why we have to have the NSA in the first place"

so the government propaganda does work :)

~~~
vasilipupkin
I am not defending the NSA or claiming that we should not curtail or better
monitor what they are doing. What I am saying is, being a freedom fighter and
then seeking asylum in Russia which is the place that heavily curtails
personal freedoms of all kinds is kind of ironic don't you think? especially
in light of the fact that Snowden allegedly has these 4 laptops with him

~~~
markyc
_being a freedom fighter and then seeking asylum in Russia which is the place
that heavily curtails personal freedoms of all kinds is kind of ironic_

when the rest of the world bows to US threats and hands over official
presidential planes for searching, there's not much choice is there?

and yes, the whole situation is very ironic, if you your views on the world
come from western media

~~~
varjag
So it all boils down to "the enemy of my enemy" rationale then?

~~~
markyc
or he was just cornered in there, while trying to reach a more "benign"
destination

------
wil421
Does anyone else find it odd that he immediately went to the US's biggest
rivals. I mean right away he ran to Hong Kong (China) and now he has accepted
asylum in Russia.

I mean these countries have huge interest in this guy. He knows intimate
details about how the USA gathers intelligence. I mean I wonder what kind of
info he has given (if any) to these countries. I am sure Putin would love to
get a hold of those laptops he took with him.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Not odd at all. If he'd gone to a country with good US relations he would have
been extradited. Russia and China don't want to be seen giving into requests
from the US so along with Latin America were two of the safest places for him.

~~~
wil421
Yes but Latin American countries wouldn't have as much interest in his Intel
as the other Russia and China. If he was just seeking asylum Ecuador would
have been a much better choice for him. They have already given Assange asylum
so I would think that would have been a better first option than HK.

~~~
stelonix
Latin American countries also wouldn't have the power to tell the US to piss
off (as we've seen in July). He asked for asylum there but there was no way he
could fly to these countries.

~~~
bigiain
I suspect Latin America is still his long term endplay. I note the Russian
asylum is a temporary 1 year deal.

