
San Francisco's guerrilla protest at Google buses swells into revolt - Cbasedlifeform
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/25/google-bus-protest-swells-to-revolt-san-francisco?CMP=twt_gu
======
pisarzp
The real problem is not Google (or Apple, FB, etc) but the limits on
development of new housing and rent control. I live in London, and outside of
my window I can see now 5 new huge developments. Because of massive influx of
people prices are increasing, but at much slower rate.

I lived for 4 months in SF last year, and my crappy flat was more expensive
then in London. What is worse, I rented it in a sketchy deal from a woman, who
wasn't even an owner. She rented a flat for a long time, and due to rent
control she was paying probably a fraction of what she should be. So she lived
in Oakland and sublet flat in Mission.

I understand that people don't want 'character of city' to change, but with
gentrification it is changing anyway. Best cities in the world are always
growing, but SF seems to be very stubborn and want's to be a kid forever.

~~~
jusben1369
People need to stop with this. Higher urban density is "not" the answer. It
puts an incredible amount of strain on every other service around it from
roads, education, sewage, water, police, hospitals etc. It never ends (or
doesn't end well) It's the _velocity_ of change, not change itself, that's the
problem for SF. Not sure about your dodgy rent controlled landlord but sounds
like without here you can't afford to have experienced 4 months of SF.

~~~
asveikau
Gumby already said it but it's worth repeating: there is economics research
out there that shows that as density increases, a bunch of things you mention
(roads, sewage, water) actually become more efficient, and that the gain in
efficiency outpaces the growth in density.

~~~
jusben1369
So if you triple the population of SF without any updates things will work
more smoothly? I use an extreme example to highlight the fact that those
studies talk about incremental gains not hyper growth that SF is or will
experience (if all this new housing was approved)

------
lettergram
Seems kind of silly to me, yes this means that many people have to leave the
city, but there really is not much that they can do about it. San Francisco's
city government is not going to be able to either (a) kick out the tech people
nor (b) figure out a way to lower rent (and in turn tax revenue). It's in the
cities interest to keep the rent/cost per home as high as possible and in turn
keep the tech people around.

I really don't understand why this bothers the others in the city. If they do
not own where they live (and chose to rent) then they don't OWN their home and
in turn have no right to live there. Rather, it makes much more sense that
they should live somewhere within their means. If they are angry about that,
it seems to me that they are just throwing a fit.

I personally am from Chicago, and I know there is a similar situation there.
Most of the city (even for high paying jobs) commute in because there is a
fairly decent train system, but also the prices are 10 times higher per square
foot in the city. The people who do live in the city are wealthy or homeless.
Though San Francisco's rent is twice as high as Chicago's on average, no one
near Chicago wants to waste their money living in the city unless they want to
be in the heart of the city and enjoy the scene. If you can't afford that,
then perhaps you didn't make very good choices in your life (aka didn't make
enough money to obtain what you want) and you should try and find a way to
achieve that goal without inflicting pain (stress, wasted time, etc.) on
others.

~~~
pavanky
That is probably the most condescending thing I've seen on hacker news (and
I've seen a lot of that).

The protesters may be wrong in their methods and they are probably fighting
for a losing cause. But to say people made bad decisions in their life because
they are not earning twice or thrice the national median income is just
ignorant.

You compare SFO wit Chicago. But I am guessing the high earners living in the
city also work there, unlike SFO where they commute _OUT_ to work.

There are no easy solutions to this problem. But please do not straight up
dismiss it.

Disclaimer: I do not live in the region so I have no idea about the specifics.
I just felt the parent comment was wrong.

~~~
omegaham
I think the reason why people don't live in Silicon Valley is that it's _even
more_ expensive to live there.

I'm also kind of skeptical toward the protestors, mostly because it's
confusing to me that people actually expect living in the city to be cheap.
Big cities have lots of people and very little space. Therefore, space is in
high demand and is really expensive. If you don't want to live in a shoebox,
don't live in the city.

California is even more expensive because it's in even higher demand. It has a
burgeoning culture scene, a large tech scene, and is a desirable retirement
spot. All of these things are pretty much beyond the protestors' control.

Not only that, let's look at their endgame. There are two ways for rent to be
lowered:

1\. Subsidized housing.

2\. Make fewer people want to live in San Francisco.

The first will work in the short term, but it will also drive up taxes in the
area. Businesses will then raise their prices. The rich guys will be
unaffected - what do they care if eggs now cost $3.00 instead of $2.00? The
poor guys will, again, be unable to make ends meet. But at least their housing
is affordable!

The second makes me think of cities where no one wants to live like Flint and
Camden. I'm sure there's very cheap real estate there, but I wouldn't want my
city to turn into it.

~~~
carbocation
3\. Allow for the construction of many more housing units.

This allows supply to help satisfy the demand, and is preferable to #1 or #2
by miles. The main objection, it seems, is that people fear that the character
of the city will change (at least, so I hear--but is that true?).

~~~
omegaham
Oh, it will definitely change, and I think that a lot of people will view the
changes as negative. It means that more lower-class people will live there.

I think that these same people who are conducting protests toward Google would
throw a fit if it was suggested. They want affordable housing _and_ the
exclusivity that comes with living in an affluent city. They don't want to
live in Oakland; they want to live in San Francisco.

------
venus
As someone who's on the other side of the world - is this real? I mean,
seriously?

How many of these "protestors" are there? I haven't seen any pictures of huge
crowds. The only photo I have seen showed about 4 or 5 cranky looking people
standing in front of a bus.

The whole thing smells like news media being a) lazy and b) hungry for a
"conflict" story and so playing right into the protestors' hands. From what I
can see, this shouldn't be a story at all.

~~~
jusben1369
It's the Guardian. They tend to the sensationalist. These events are small but
they are most likely the canary in the mine.

~~~
tomp
> They tend to the sensationalist.

Really? Any arguments/examples to back that up?

~~~
jusben1369
Well I can think of one fairly recent example....... ;)

------
whistlerbrk
There is a lot of misdirected anger in this world and attacks upon symptoms of
problems instead of their underlying causes.

~~~
jusben1369
Actually "symptoms" become "symbols" that people rally around. Sitting at the
front of the bus instead of the back was a symptom of racism not the cause.
You can't "attack" an underlying cause but you can attack a physical
manifestation/symptom of the problem.

~~~
noamsml
Yeah, but when attacking a symptom becomes directing your hatred at a group of
people, you have a problem.

------
jusben1369
The thing I find interesting about attacking the Google buses is that South
Bay/Peninsula companies aren't really the problem. What's changed in the last
5 - 7 years is how many startups are _in_ San Francisco. So it's the abundance
of well paid jobs in the City (along a little with the ability to work
remotely) that's dramatically changed the situation. That's why there wasn't
this sort of intense dynamic in the 90's up to the dot com bust. The Google
buses are more just salt on the wounds. Even if they stopped it wouldn't
change the dynamics very much. However, I understand the source of the
frustration. Of course, like all markets, the problem may solve itself over
time. After all, many of the unique aspects of SF that draws tech workers
there or stay there will get priced out of the market making it much less
appealing.

~~~
waterlesscloud
What'll happen is that it'll just be a bland yuppie city. The damage will have
been done, and with no real reason to ever return to the way it was.

------
ubercore
Googlers, what is your opinion on relaxing the remote work rules? Seems like a
very direct way to ease this tension, but I have no perspective on how
detrimental it would be to Google's culture.

~~~
raverbashing
There's that as well.

As I understand, Googlers "work remotely" already, meaning, no development is
done in their desktop machine, but on remote servers, maybe someone can
confirm.

EDIT: I am apparently wrong as some mentioned, so I would expect a more
detailed explanation.

~~~
Crito
[I do not work at google.]

When I work remotely, I work on my desktop machine, via my laptop. SSH works
just fine on desktop machines; desktop vs server really has nothing to do with
working remotely.

~~~
raverbashing
I mean the machine sitting at their desks, regardless of it being a "desktop"
machine or a laptop, it should have been clear from the context

~~~
Crito
I... what?

I mean that my work is done on a tower pc sitting under my desk in the office,
whether I am in the office, or at home. When at home, I just log into my
desktop.

 _" no development is done in their desktop machine, but on remote servers"_
has nothing to do with working remotely.

------
rrhyne
I didn't get the protests until I realized that the higher rent is
dramatically changing the character of the city. You won't find cheap ethnic
food or eclectic family run businesses much longer if The valley keeps
exporting its housing problem.

~~~
raldi
People have been saying that for decades, and yet the cheap ethnic food and
eclectic family-run businesses still remain.

~~~
rrhyne
At rent increases like the city is seeing, I don't see how the primary
customers of those establishments can remain in the city.

~~~
raldi
And yet they do, year after year. Try getting a parking space anywhere near
5th and Clement on a Saturday night if you don't believe me. The neighborhood
is packed with people going out to eat at cheap ethnic restaurants.

------
noamsml
Hating techies (and the target of hate, make no mistake, is all tech workers)
is easy, convenient, misguided and counterproductive. it is easy, because
hatred is a simple, attractive emotion. It is convenient, because it requires
no thought about policy changes, urban planning, zoning, transportation,
density, parking or anything else that makes a city. It is misguided because
it fails to take into account the lack of development in this city that lead
to this crisis -- essentially, SF's residents forced SF to be an exclusive
enclave, and are now surprised it's becoming an exclusive enclave for someone
else. Finally, it is counterproductive because the tech population is not
going to leave the city, and the more hate you lob in their direction, the
less willing they will be to cooperate in making the city affordable -- why
collaborate with the people who actively vilify us?

------
pavanky
Are they specifically targeting Google and not other big companies ? Or is it
just the article baiting for clicks ?

------
lnanek2
Yes, those darn buses keeping so many cars off our roads! They can't have
buses! How terrible of them.

------
woah
meanwhile, in Ukraine...

~~~
matthuggins
I don't understand what this comment has to do with the article.

~~~
eksith
Priorities, apparently. Of course, Ukraine being on fire right now doesn't
make all other news disappear, but perhaps we should be paying more attention
to the _actual_ revolt.

~~~
fennecfoxen
Priorities, and making fun of San Francisco's "revolt" for not actually being
a revolt.

------
e3pi
WorldwarP.pl

s/Z/P/g; # P(p) = poverty, wealth disparity

" ...This goes way, way beyond a cheap bus ride - although the public
transport scene in Brazil’s big cities would star in Dante’s ninth circle of
hell. A manual worker, a student, a maid usually spend up to four hours a day
back-and-forth in appalling conditions. And these are private transport
rackets controlled by a small group of businessmen embedded with local
politicians, who they obviously own."

[http://rt.com/op-edge/brazil-protests-world-cup-014/](http://rt.com/op-
edge/brazil-protests-world-cup-014/)

------
vxNsr
If the city really wanted to stop the rising rent they could just implement
rent-control, and do it on a block by block basis, so you don't have the same
issues that exist in NY.

~~~
thrownaway2424
Gosh what a great idea: rent control in San Francisco. You should send this
new and brilliant idea to the board of supervisors immediately.

~~~
noamsml
I wonder if they're ever tried that one before.

------
squirejons
you had better believe that this 'grass roots' protest is funded by people
with fat fat wallets. They are making tech workers into the New Jew using
propaganda. Propaganda is the hidden force behind all of modern politics.

If you go back and look at the rise of hitler and the nazis, it becomes clear
that the upper class needed a scapegoat to preserve their wealth from the
inevitable oncoming swell of populist-leftist politics coming up from the
working class. The upper class knew what was coming, so they found a scapegoat
and subverted the working class populist sentiment, diverting working class
anger onto the scapegoat, the jews. If you want references for this idea, see
the article "I was Hitler's Boss" by Karl Mayr and also the new book
_Hitler's_ _First_ _War_.

Anyway, the same thing is happening now--the elite are pushing the idea that
tech workers are to blame for rising prices.

They are demonizing tech workers so that populist anger is directed away from
themselves. It is also possible that this anger in SF against tech workers is
actually in fact anger against cheap import H1b labor scabs from overseas, but
the media is altering and changing the actual tenor and content of the protest
to make it looks as if it is a protest against tech workers in general.

Also, as a side effect of demonizing tech workers, they can get more cheap
labor H1Bs into america because the tech worker will then be an unsympathetic
figure.

~~~
dgabriel
You are out of your mind.

~~~
squirejons
and i went right into yours, sweetie!

------
railzfailz
I agree - the protesters are revolting.

~~~
pg_rails
Hear Hear - let them ride public buses (and eat cake).

Hate it when the great unwashed get uppity.

~~~
skj
If only Google was actually oppressing them, then this comment might make
sense.

