
You don’t have to feel guilty for oversleeping - kdivvela
http://42floors.com/blog/you-dont-have-to-feel-guilty-for-over-sleeping/
======
Udo
People's sleep cycles are just different, even if it's not fashionable to
acknowledge that. They differ with the person and they differ with the
personal situation at the time. This notion that there is _The One True Sleep
Pattern_ and that everybody should adhere to it is not tenable in my opinion.
It's a strategy that sells books on how to become "normal", nothing else.

I'm a night person, I viscerally hate mornings, and when I can I "oversleep"
until 10 or even 11 in the morning. I go to bed when I'm tired, I usually
sleep well and wake up rested in the morning. Sometimes I get tired during the
day and when I can I respond to that by napping for a little while. In the
absence of outside disruption, this works fine. I feel great and productive.
On average I sleep 7-8 hours total, sometimes more, sometimes less. It's still
possible to do a standard 7-to-5 workday, but after a while of doing that I
simply become less productive and I start hating my day.

I've been told, directly and indirectly through "sleep experts" in the media,
that my natural pattern is unhealthy and I _must_ take steps to align myself
with the same standardized day that is working so well for everybody else.
Waking up feeling like you just got steamrolled, traffic jams, morning
grumpiness, and being in the office before the boss arrives. Fuck that.

~~~
bane
I agree with all of this.

Right now, my normal work day starts with my waking up 5am and I feel like
shit most of the day regardless of how long I've been doing it and how
disciplined I am about getting to bed.

My natural cycle has me waking up at around 10am and falling asleep at around
2am.

Guess how many days it takes for me to readjust back to my natural cycle when
I have some time off and turn off the alarm clock?

 _The next day._ I'll crash early like normal the night before and sleep
through an _extra 5 hours_ to wake up almost on the nose at 10am then fall
asleep the next night at around 2am.

This happens when traveling overseas too. Within one or two days I'm back on
the 2-10 sleep schedule.

And I feel _awesome_ when I'm on that schedule. Even better, I avoid most
traffic on those days.

~~~
mnicole
Same. I've been working three years at a job I have to be in at 7am for and it
has really only gotten worse in terms of how I feel each day. I accidentally
slept in a few times the first few months I'd started, and even though it
doesn't happen anymore, that doesn't detract from the fact that my body is
still not okay with it and all the coffee in the world doesn't change that.

------
adambard
I started working at a small startup in January. With the team as small as it
is, the working hours are very flexible -- if I make it into the office at
10:00, I'm usually the first one there.

Since I had the luxury, I did something that I want to wholeheartedly
recommend to anyone who can: I stopped using an alarm clock.

I'm a "night owl". I tend to have trouble sleeping before midnight, and often
stay up later than that. Unfortunately, for most of my life (from school, to
university, to a 9-5 job at a "real" company) I've had to wake up earlier than
I would otherwise, normally around 7:00 or 7:30. It was always a struggle, and
I would usually hit snooze a few times before I actually managed to struggle
out of bed. Even if I happened to go to bed early enough to get 8 hours'
sleep, I'd have trouble getting up.

It took me about a month at to sleep off my debt. Now I go to bed when I want,
and wake up in the morning around 8:00 or 8:30, no alarm needed. I went from
3-4 cups of coffee per day to 1. I'm almost always in a good mood, even first
thing in the morning. I used to be convinced that sleeping for 10 hours if I
wasn't interrupted was just a fact of my existence; now I wake up after 7 and
a half hours, all by myself.

This is not an endorsement for setting your schedule to 10-6. It's an
endorsement for not setting your schedule. If you treat yourself right, body
will know when it's time to get some work done, no clock needed.

~~~
lobster_johnson
> _It took me about a month at to sleep off my debt._

I am pretty sure you didn't "sleep off your debt". Sleep debt is something you
easily recover right away, just by sleeping until you wake naturally.

What you did was to shift your circadian phase. The circadian phase is usually
measured by the nadir point of the core body temperature rhythm [1]
(apparently the better measurement is of the "endogenous melatonin rhythm",
but it's easier to talk about core body temperature).

Apparently you can force the nadir point forward, but it's relatively hard to
move it backwards. You move it forward by delaying sleep, thus accumulating
sleep debt that causes you to get up increasignly later. To move it backwards
you have to curtail your sleep, thus accumulating sleep debt which needs to be
paid at some point.

About your solution: As a fellow night owl, if I just set my sleep cycle free,
at it were, then my wakeup time quickly shifts to around 16-17:00, and I sleep
9-10 hours per night. So while your recipe works for you, it's not for
everyone.

[1]
[http://www.cmse.ch/pdf/colloque_14_octobre/6_approche%20trou...](http://www.cmse.ch/pdf/colloque_14_octobre/6_approche%20troubles%20circadiens.pdf)

~~~
wting
Actually, studies from multiple sources prove that sleep debt is a real thing:

<http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/health/03real.html?_r=0>

[http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/26/nyregion/the-high-cost-
of-...](http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/26/nyregion/the-high-cost-of-paying-
off-a-sleep-debt.html)

------
dionidium
The thing about morning people is you just can't trust them, because a part of
them will always believe that night people are lazy; they just can't get over
it, no matter how rationally you explain your situation. And you can't trust
people like that, because they'll never understand the difference between
something they just happen to like or believe and something that is
universally Right, Good, and True. To them there's no difference. Every
Dystopia was a morning person's idea, I guarantee it.

~~~
3pt14159
Heh, people look at me sideways for leaving at 430 when I'm in at 7. You might
time people can't be trusted because we never know when you've gone home :).
(Said in complete jest, of course)

~~~
supercoder
Of course the same can be said for morning people, we never know when you
arrived !

------
obviouslygreen
"Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome."

This is where you lost me. If you're arguing that it's normal, _don't call it
a freaking syndrome._ Don't give it an ADHD-like name, don't make it a
diagnosis. Say it's nature, say what you mean, stop with the excuses. You are
making exactly the opposite of your case.

No reasonable person will listen to the deluge of "treat your Shift Work
Disorder with this pill" and "solve your Erectile Disfunction" with this pill
and somehow hear "Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome" and not think "yeah...
bullshit."

If you want to alter people's idea of normal, don't frame your existence the
way people frame diseases and disorders. You are not changing perspectives,
you are reinforcing them, and you are making yourself look _even more
abnormal._

------
deltaqueue
It seems as though this comments section is filled with self-proclaimed "night
owls." I'm curious, have any of you read the linked articles about variables
that influence people to remain awake later than they should and have these
types of erratic sleep patterns / modified circadian rhythms (heavy computer
use / blue light exposure)? And, have any of you tested your own reaction to
curtailing these late-night activities while introducing natural sunlight
stimulant in the morning?

I'm not asking in a derogatory way; I'm genuinely curious since I experimented
with this myself and found positive results. My guess is that most haven't,
and that it's easier just to accept a "night owl" classification in lieu of
hundreds of thousands of years of human dependence on the sun and fire for
light. Based on my limited research it seems that those without significant
mental illness sleep well with habit and controlled stimuli (including natural
light). Has anyone, through any amount of reasonable testing, found this NOT
to be true?

~~~
btilly
I have always been a night owl. With or without computers. Even when I spend
time camping out doors. I like to stay up, I don't like waking up.

Once as an experiment I began waking up an hour later every day. I went around
the clock, felt great, couldn't stop my body from doing it again, had to work
hard to avoid it happening a third time.

If days had 25 hours, I'd be all set.

------
kevingadd
The annoying thing when it comes to this kind of sleep problem is that it
never gets completely better. Over time I've come up with ways to ensure I
actually get up early enough for important events and don't sleep through
alarms - not even 'i hit the snooze button' problems but just alarms literally
not waking me up - whether it's by making alarms louder, setting 6 alarms
spaced out 15 minutes apart (yes, really), or going without sleep if I have to
wake up too soon (in practice I found that getting 3-4 hours of sleep
consistently is impossible; I always sleep through the alarms).

Even with all that though, nothing really changed. If I go a week or so
without setting alarms and just let my body wake up naturally after a night's
sleep, I will naturally drift from waking up at say 6am to waking up at 11am.
Sometimes I drift backwards, and find myself waking up in the dead of night at
4am and being completely awake. It's extremely valuable to be in a work
environment where you can at least mitigate this by going in to work early
some days and late others.

I also find that forcing yourself to adhere to a sleep schedule that doesn't
feel natural can result in more fatigue, and I wonder if other people have the
same experience. I tried doing an 'early' schedule at work a few times, waking
up at about 6am and heading in to work early, and always found that I was
completely exhausted by 5pm. Moving my waking time forward a few hours almost
always alleviated the problem. Maybe it's something you get used to only after
doing it for months at a time?

~~~
ctdonath
_find myself waking up in the dead of night at 4am and being completely awake_

Search for recent threads on sleep referencing "first sleep". Seems the
electric light has made us forget most sane humans through most of history
would sleep at sunset, then wake a few hours later in a relaxed blissful
state, then sleep again. Methinks what you experience (not uncommon) is
natural behavior, subverted by not realizing you're supposed to go back to
sleep after about an hour of some nocturnal activity.

~~~
stephengillie
This sounds like 2-phase sleep caused by sleeping too early.

~~~
ctdonath
Not sure I'd call it "too early" when it was the norm for most of human
existence. Sleep at sunset, wake at dawn, enjoy some nocturnal activity mid
night. Artificial lighting hasn't been around all that long, yet we have
forgotten what natural lighting means for sleep cycles.

~~~
stephengillie
In Seattle, the amount of time the sun is in the sky varies from 8.5 hours to
16 hours across the year. Do you believe we really need 15 hours of sleep in
the winter, but can get by on barely 8 in the summer? I don't think our sleep
schedules need to vary THAT much for seasonal disaffectance.

~~~
derefr
> Do you believe we really need 15 hours of sleep in the winter, but can get
> by on barely 8 in the summer?

Yes, inasmuch as we "need" sleep at all. There are many species that
dramatically shift their sleeping patterns over the course of the year--such
as never sleeping during months-long migrations--and come out with no "sleep
debt" accrued at all. This lends to a conclusion that the brain really just
requests a certain amount of sleep, and is unhappy if it doesn't get it--but
it can request less sleep in the first place with no physiological effect.

~~~
stephengillie
How do you account for people dying when kept awake for too long?

~~~
derefr
I didn't say we don't need sleep. I meant more that putting in some sort of
effort that then requires sleep to compensate it is a _decision_ our brain
makes (or an adaptation it executes), more like putting debt on a credit card
than putting fuel in a gas tank. Build up enough debt and you can go bankrupt
(i.e. die), but never build up any debt at all and you'll be fine; you just
won't have any of the things you could have that required that extra temporary
liquidity/leverage to accomplish.

We could probably figure out a drug that would put us into a state where we
don't need to sleep, ever--the resulting state just might not be something
very much resembling "sentient human consciousness." It might not allow for
memory-formation or System 2 analysis, for example, thus making you go through
life only relying on the sort of "thinking" you do while dreaming. Animals
that don't sleep, or that sleep very little (e.g. horses, at two hours per
day) are also likely "stuck" in this state by design.

The real question is whether we could get anything _productive_ done in this
state, and that might be possible--it seems somewhat to resemble "flow."

------
jamieb
Melatonin works for me. Unless you have DSPS, I cannot tell you how amazing it
is for the alarm to go off at 7:30, once, and to be able to get out of bed. It
has changed my life.

I take my girls to school. I check email before 8. At the weekends I can lie
in till 10 and its a real lie in, not a normal weekday.

~~~
pragone
+1. Exact same situation here - started taking melatonin on the advice of my
doctor, and it completely changed my morning routine (so long as I actually
take it and go to bed about 7-8 hours before I wake up - it's not magic, and
doesn't let me go to bed at 1am and wake up at 5am, but does let me go to bed
at 10pm and wake up at 5am).

------
hapless
You don't have to feel guilty, but you still might get fired.

Jason Freedman answers only to shareholders, not a boss, which is why he can
decide whether he feels guilty or not.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Not sure where you work, but I negotiate my hours just the same as the rest of
my compensation package.

8-9am start time? That'll be an extra $10K-20K/year. Same for dress code, etc.

~~~
supercoder
dress code ? do you have a farting and ball scratching package too ?

~~~
pjscott
How _you_ feel about it is irrelevant; what matters are the desires of the
employer and employee, and what they're willing to trade.

------
sixQuarks
I wasn't aware I had Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome until I read this. However,
this was the main reason I became an entrepreneur. After suffering every
morning during high school, I swore to myself that I would never use an alarm
clock when I was an adult. I'm happy to say that I've achieved this goal,
thanks to DSPS.

------
akaru
Many of you may use flux to help with this. I also built an app for late night
work sessions that adjusts for warmer light while also reducing the monitor's
brightness. For OS X. Here's a few promo codes if interested:

<http://tokn.co/0fgu5wvx> <http://tokn.co/k6r3ggcw> <http://tokn.co/qgqrsvy2>
<http://tokn.co/4zmmdt89> <http://tokn.co/3pdx3jtv>

~~~
freehunter
Note: they're all redeemed.

------
readme
I have this problem too. Are you sure we aren't lazy? I'm fairly sure if I
busted my ass (by that I mean a constant work stream all the way through with
absolute minimum interruption) 9-5 every day and then did a hard workout I
wouldn't have my 'delayed sleep' problem.

Easier said than done, though.

------
beat
Here's an ongoing frustration... I'm currently working on a startup while
maintaining a day job, which means LOTS of hours. I'm often (usually) working
until I go to bed. Now, I'm at my best productivity code-wise when I first
start working in the morning (no, not a morning person). So I'd like to get up
earlier and put in a couple of hours on the startup in the morning, before I
have to go do the dayjob - give my best couple of hours to MY work rather than
someone else's work. Working two hours from 6am-8am would be more productive
for me than working two hours from 10pm-12am. But when I'm working late at
night, it's really hard to let it go and tell myself to pick it up in the
morning. Knowing logically that this is true isn't enough. Sigh.

------
rajanikanthr
My work used to start at 10 and it was hard to be there in the morning meeting
by 10AM. I always used to be late.. people are getting changed in our team, so
rules. I was asked to come by 9-9:15 and there is new meeting scheduled at
9:30 and I was being constantly mocked for being late.

I came across this <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=359041> and seems
this guy is similar to me, but a more severe problem. I am a consultant and
not worried about getting a new job when fired and team looks for the work I
have done unlike fulltime. But I hate the feeling of subtle mocking for being
late by my lead in my current job :(

------
fractalsea
So pleased I saw this. I overslept this morning and felt shit about it.
Luckily the startup I work for doesn't care when I come in, but I know it will
just mean it will be even later before I feel tired tonight.

I've had identical problems for as long as I can remember. It's been so hard
to track down the cause. I think it's partly stress/anxiety, but it also
definitely correlates with being alone, on my computer, late at night.

I installed f.lux but I haven't noticed any difference. I'll try some of these
other suggestions and see if the combination makes any difference.

------
mkoble11
A couple of times a week, I wake up at 3 or 4a & can't go back to sleep for a
couple of hours.

Does anyone else run into this? What approaches did you take to counteract?

~~~
chrisro
Yep. I used to call it "waking insomnia" before I learned about segmented
sleep. It's likely a remnant of our ancestor's approach to sleep, which was in
two parts--first and second sleep.

I'll wake 4-5 hours after first falling asleep with a period of 2-3 hours of
wakefulness before I feel sleepy again. Unfortunately I'll begin to feel
sleepy again within an hour or about the time I need to wake up for work.
Sometimes I can catch an hour or two of sleep, but it's the hardest sleep to
wake from and I feel like I'm dragging the rest of the day.

I personally just tough the day out, though sometimes I take a sleep aid
(usually one 25mg dose of Benadryl) before going to bed as a preventative.

New York Times about First and Second Sleep:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/opinion/sunday/rethinking-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/opinion/sunday/rethinking-
sleep.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)

Wikpedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep>

------
eldude
3 years ago I could no longer fall asleep before 5am and it was severely
affecting my ability to concentrate, which as a software engineer is a death
knell. Like most, I internalize my problems, exacerbating my frustration,
worsening sleep, and creating a negative feedback loop.

Today, I sleep like a baby, and it's INCREDIBLY EASY to fix. Follow these
steps, and you'll never have difficulty falling asleep again:

1\. Melatonin [1]

Melatonin is how your body knows when it's time to go to sleep. It's produced
naturally, but with DSPD (Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder), by definition it
occurs later than it should. Taking melatonin an hour before you go to sleep
is like a hard reset. I can't overstate this enough. It doesn't matter how
much blue light or caffeine you've taken (for the most part) during the day,
or how stressed you are, if you take 9mg of melatonin, you'll fall asleep in
an hour. Period. Eventually, with some of the below, you can achieve the same
affect with 1mg, and once you establish a regular schedule you'll no longer
require it at all.

2\. Wake Light [2]

A natural sun alarm clock. If you get enough sleep (easy once the melatonin
ensures you fall asleep on time), waking up to one of these is a breeze (and a
joy).

3\. Avoid Blue Light

Same thing as the article states, avoid it. Computers, iPhone, etc...

4\. Cold shower [3]

It drops your body temperature and moves your blood away from your prefrontal
cortex to your core alleviating your mind from racing.

5\. Earplugs [4,5]

My dogs feat clitter clatter across our hard wood floors. My wife wakes up
before me. Our house creeks. etc.... Occasionally I also use an eye cover, but
it's less impactful.

6\. Socks & t-shirt [6]

They help regulate body temperature.

7\. Obey Your Sleep Cycles [7]

Our bodies have natural sleep cycles (90m for the first, ~110m for the 2-3rd).
When my alarm clock goes off, and I still feel sleepy, I roll over with my
eyes facing my wake light and effectively snooze until I feel awake.
Eventually the combination of white light and the conclusion of my sleep
cycle, leave me feeling awake and alert.

8\. Sleep alarm

In my experience, it's been more important for me to set an alarm at night
(9:45) to start getting ready for bed, than to set one in the morning. Having
a regular sleep schedule allows you to work _with_ your body instead of
against it. If you're having trouble sleeping, or you anticipate having
trouble, take melatonin until your body starts to adapt to your new schedule
and it's no longer necessary.

9\. Relax

1 hour before your sleep alarm you should be doing something relaxing. It
won't matter if when your sleep alarm goes off, you're running around busily
doing things. I make sure I'm doing something relaxing like watching TV or
reading a book in bed for at least an hour before my sleep alarm goes off.

10\. iPhone Wakeup

One thing that helps wake me up on those difficult mornings is to crank the
brightness on my iPhone and sit and read a few articles. The white light
naturally tells my body it's time to start the day, and eventually I don't
mind waking up.

Life is so much better now that I can count on fantastic sleep every night!

[1] <http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/tc/melatonin-overview>

[2] [http://www.amazon.com/Philips-Hf3470-Wake-up-Light-
White/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Philips-Hf3470-Wake-up-Light-
White/dp/B003XN4RIC/)

[3] <https://www.google.com/search?q=cold+shower+before+sleeping>

[4]
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0068HC0X4/ref=oh_details_o...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0068HC0X4/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00)

[5]
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H7MMP2/ref=oh_details_o...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H7MMP2/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00)

[6] [http://lifehacker.com/wear-socks-to-fall-asleep-
easily-47655...](http://lifehacker.com/wear-socks-to-fall-asleep-
easily-476550620)

[7] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep#cite_ref-17>

~~~
javert
Thanks. This is one of the occasional comments I find on HN that is so helpful
that I put it in my notes so that I can refer to it again in the future.

While the parent article itself is really great and somewhat similar, (a) you
have a better explanation of melatonin, and (b) the morning wake-up light you
recommend appears (from quickly scanning comments) to be much higher quality
than the one the parent article links to.

------
tudorconstantin
I think this is just a matter of training and motivation. I am waking up each
morning at 5:30am. I love the silence in the morning and the fact that i can
do whatever i want, with no interruptions, at top concentration power.

I could be at work at 7 am if i wanted to, but i am a programmer and most of
my colleagues get there between 9 and 12, so 8am is just good.

------
AngeloRabbit
Honor your commitments, yet be true to yourself. Not all of us are 8 to 5
people, and the world would not quite work as well if we all were (Who is
going to be monitoring your network while you're asleep?).

My belief is: Be a person of your word; If you commit to being somewhere at a
certain time, honor that commitment.

------
MostAwesomeDude
False. Guilt is not shame, because it is rooted in fact. The fact of the
matter is that if I fail to feel guilty for oversleeping, I will eventually be
fired. If I am fired, I will no longer be able to support myself. (You can see
where this is going, logically.)

So yes, I _do_ have to feel guilty for oversleeping.

~~~
aashay
Would you still get fired if you honored your commitments? What makes you
think you'd be fired at all?

Seems to me like your situation isn't applicable to everyone. I, for one, fit
the OP's description to a tee, and I'm pretty sure there are a handful of
people I work with who assume I'm lazy etc. In practice it doesn't end up
mattering because I still ship and honor my commitments, and I haven't been
fired.

I only feel guilty for "oversleeping" if I promised to be somewhere in the
morning and I break that promise. Otherwise it's not oversleeping, it's just
sleeping.

~~~
MostAwesomeDude
Did you consider that one of my commitments might be "Come into the office on
time and spend eight hours at work?"

------
yoster
Fuck I wish I had this problem. I have insomnia and I only get 3-4 hours of
sleep a day.

------
squozzer
I don't feel a damn bit guilty, especially when it comes to blowing off work.

------
voidlogic
"Be the first to share this on Hacker News"

I'm not sure how this is news worthy- I guess some people feel every entry in
their diary of personal accomplishments must grace the pages of Hacker News.
I'm glad the author overcame his disorder, but asking people to post it to
HN...

I also imagine this will be a great way for a lot more people than the 0.15 to
0.17% of the population that actually has Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder [1] to
rationalize their lack of willpower.

1:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder#Pr...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder#Prevalence)

~~~
CanSpice
> I also imagine this will be a great way for a lot more people than the 0.15
> to 0.17% of the population that actually has Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder to
> rationalize their lack of willpower.

Yep. Unless you've been professionally diagnosed, just pointing to a Wikipedia
page and saying "I have that!" as an excuse for your behaviour is not the
right thing to do. The same thing happened with Asperger Syndrome; it became
the excuse du jour for dickish behaviour. "Oh, I'm not anti-social, I have
Aspergers." No, actually, you're just a dick.

Using "I have this-or-that disorder" as an excuse (unless you have been
professionally diagnosed) is just that: an excuse. It also belittles those who
actually do have the disorder, which could be an even worse side effect.

~~~
nijk
What is the difference between a disorder and being a dick? What if I have
Assholegers? Is that less acceptable than Autism? Why?

(Aspergers is no longer a disorder, it got rolled into autism.)

~~~
6d0debc071
Autistic people aren't always particularly annoying.

#

Anyway, one's based on a deficit of ability and the other's based on a deficit
of will.

Oh, I'll grant that strictly speaking the dick can't really be anything else -
free will doesn't exactly show up as a major correlate.

But when you change the social pressure's in the dick's case you get different
behaviours out at the other end - whereas when you change the social pressures
in the autistic person's case they don't stop being autistic for all you can
train some of them to fake it somewhat when they get older.

