
Barcelona is leading the fightback against smart city surveillance - justaguyhere
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/barcelona-decidim-ada-colau-francesca-bria-decode
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jasdeepsingh
I think a city like Barcelona, with their theft and crime problem can make use
of some sort of surveillance.

Just two weeks ago, 3 hours before ending my vacation in the city, Me and my
wife were robbed off roughly worth $10k USD in a car tire puncture scam.

[http://tourist-scams.com/tourist-scam-
destinations/barcelona...](http://tourist-scams.com/tourist-scam-
destinations/barcelona-spain/car-tire-puncture-scam/)

~~~
farresito
Sorry to hear you were robbed 10k. I'm not sure how much we can solve the
robbing problem with surveillance.

I can talk a bit about the typical robbing that occurs in the more touristic
places in the city. The police is very much aware of who the robbers are, and
in fact most of them have been caught dozens of times, if not hundreds; they
simply don't get punished, except with a small fine, so they keep doing it.
It's disgraceful.

~~~
kartan
> they simply don't get punished, except with a small fine, so they keep doing
> it. It's disgraceful.

Violent thieves (robbers) get punished. Non-violent theft is treated more
lightly unless is done on a big scale. This gives criminals a high incentive
to not be violent.

I have heard that the theory is that if you hard punish any thief, then
thieves are going to be more violent to not get caught. If you focus the
police force on violent crime, then violent crime goes down.

Most criminals know that if they give themselves in when caught, they will get
a more favourable sentence that if they resist.

The goal is to keep people safe first, then property. To punish criminals is a
means to that goal, but just that. I think that in the USA there is a moral
component where punishing criminals is a moral imperative, even if this causes
worse crime or if people get wrongly punished. Or, at least, that is what I
interpret from the news.

~~~
ardit33
No it is not that. The main reason is that even if you get caught stealing you
only get something like 15- 30days of jail. It is like a two week vacation for
a pocket picker, then they are out again.

In SouthEastern countries they get 1, 2 or up 4 years in jail. Guess, what?
There is less of them in the streets and if they are less likely to do it
again.

So, being too lenient in crime creates the nightmare that Barcelona is, and
draws in criminals from the rest of Europe (it is still a very beautiful city
to visit).

[http://documentaryheaven.com/scam-city-
barcelona/](http://documentaryheaven.com/scam-city-barcelona/)

~~~
madeofpalk
> In SouthEastern [...] there is less of them in the streets and if they are
> less likely to do it again.

Really? Of course only anecdotally, I've always had a worse impression of this
'street crime' in SEA than in places like Barcelona.

~~~
ardit33
Romania vs Spain, Spain is clearly worse crime wise.
[https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_countries_result.jsp?co...](https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Romania&country2=Spain)

When you compare Bucharest (the capital city) with Barcelona, Barcelona fares
a lot worse.

[https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Rom...](https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Romania&country2=Spain&city1=Bucharest&city2=Barcelona)

Index Info Bucharest | Barcelona

Crime Index: 28.48 | 45.08

Safety Scale: 71.52 | 54.92

I know, by reputation the Balkan Region doesn't look good, but when you look
at the data it paints a totally different picture. My hunch is that a lot of
petty thieves types have moved into Western Europe as the business is more
lucrative there.

~~~
kartan
[http://www.nationmaster.com/country-
info/stats/Crime/Violent...](http://www.nationmaster.com/country-
info/stats/Crime/Violent-crime/Murder-rate-per-million-people#2009)

Position ... Murder rate per million

74 Romania 19.6 2009

102 Spain 8.69 2009

Your numbers are not in contradiction with my reasoning. More pretty thief is
more crime, but it is less violent crime.

------
darthdev
“Now we have a big contract with Vodafone, and every month Vodafone has to
give machine readable data to city hall. Before, that didn’t happen. They just
took all the data and used it for their own benefit”

So, now Vodafone AND the city government has this data about the citizens. How
is this fighting against surveillance? Am I missing something? :/

~~~
sjclemmy
The funny thing about democracy is that if you have a fairly egalitarian
society, the government actually represents the views of, and works for the
people. So the statement you quote is saying that the people, through their
democratic system of represention, has control of the data. Local power
structures like local government tend to be quite good.

~~~
whatshisface
They have a copy, not control. Ranked from most abused to least abused, you
have secret misuse and leaks, corporate misuse and leaks, and democratic
misuse and leaks; and if they all get a copy you take their individual
leak+misuse outputs and add them.

Metaphorically, you go from a criminal with a gun at your head to a criminal
_and_ a friend both with guns at your head.

~~~
bumholio
The democratic majority is not your friend unless you are part of it. Think
about anyone convicted of socially reprehensible crimes. The information that
you used to be a pedophile will certainly make your life a living hell when it
is used for the good of the people.

------
personlurking
The article said DECODE is an EU-funded project.

Reminded me that there's a cool monthly magazine [1] on other such projects,
called Research EU. All 71 past editions are available in multiple languages,
and downloadable.

The magazine "features highlights from the latest Results in Brief and project
news from the world of European research and innovation" ... "where each issue
covers a specific topic of interest to researchers, policymakers and other
stakeholders in the research field."

1 - [https://cordis.europa.eu/research-
eu/home_en.html](https://cordis.europa.eu/research-eu/home_en.html)

------
rgrieselhuber
If you see the word “smart” in front of some object, there is a strong chance
it will be used against you once you have come to depend on it.

------
jacquesm
That's an interesting development but all it will take to cause damage is a
reversal of the fortunes of the political party that brings this about. You
always have to worry about the _next_ government, not the current one when you
start creating databases.

And that next government may decide not to honor the citizens in the same way
the present one does.

~~~
justaguyhere
It is the responsibility of the citizens to make sure the next government
honors these promises, right? A good example would be the abortion policy
([https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-
actions/presidential...](https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-
actions/presidential-memorandum-regarding-mexico-city-policy/)) Every
republican president reverses what the previous democratic president did, and
vice versa.

If the public doesn't care enough about these issues, then how can we expect
politicians to care?

------
femto
The Catalan independence movement would be serving to overcome the apathy
which would otherwise be present. A significant number of Barcelonans would be
keen to limit the ability of Madrid to use information from the phone network
to squash dissent.

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xondono
I had come across this article before.

I just wanted to add a little update. This “direct democracy” voting system
has already been put to test. The citizens voted against Colau’s party
proposals. The official comment is that they “will take that into account”,
but controversial plans still go forward.

------
mig39
If you were to ask me which city needs _more_ surveillance, it would be
Barcelona. The amount of petty crime, the constantly being approached by
groups of people offering "services" and "products" is insane.

I love most cities, but that's the one place where I had a strange feeling --
I think I was afraid?

~~~
ktosobcy
As a tourist or living there?

~~~
mig39
A tourist.

Everywhere else, the touristy places are well policed. Seemed the opposite in
Barcelona.

All the same, the only time I didn't have that weird feeling of dread was when
I went off the beaten path and away from the touristy areas.

~~~
madeofpalk
Today I literally just finishes 2 months travelling around the area. I felt
less safe in parts of France than in Barcelona.

