
A Northwest Pipeline to Silicon Valley - jonburs
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/technology/u-of-washington-a-northwest-pipeline-to-silicon-valley.html?pagewanted=all
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tylermenezes
It's funny, because it seems to me that a lot of the talent coming out of UW
CSE isn't going to make it into the valley in any meaningful way.

UW CSE is still entirely focused on grades. There's literally no way to
include anything but grades in your admission application -- not even
recommendation letters. I've talked to some of the admissions faculty, and
their argument is that it's unfair to people who are totally new to computer
science to deny them on the basis of a lack of prior experience. I totally
disagree with this, however -- you're not going to get into a music or acting
program without any prior experience, why should you get into a CS program?

From what I've seen, a lot of UW graduates end up getting recruited into a big
company (Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Intel, etc). It's by all means a great
program, but it seems like they're never going to have someone they can point
to as a success like, for example, Harvard, Stanford, or MIT. I think that's
the reason why their reputation is a lot more quiet.

FWIW, my co-founder and I have both been rejected from UW CSE (me with an
overall 3.8 GPA and several conference papers published as first author while
I was still in high school).

~~~
WildUtah
Wait.

I'm confused reading the admission comments. It seems you get admitted to UW
undergrad, and then after two years you apply to the CSE thing. Are you
considered undeclared until then? Is there any kind of test or is it entirely
based on grades in the initial weeder classes?

That seems like kind of a big risk to people who want to study a specific
subject and might not get admitted to it. The'd just have to switch career
ambitions or start over at another college with about a one year delay for
transferring.

Most state schools I see admit you to a specific major before you matriculate.
Then you can change fairly flexibly within your department if you have the
right classes and good grades. Elite schools usually admit undeclared students
and then have them choose an area of study after a year with no further
admission criteria.

Are the UW faculty trying to build an elite program inside a non-elite
university? That's an interesting idea, but I don't think I'd want to be the
guinea pig who has to suffer for it.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
First, UW is already mostly an elite university; its very hard to get in these
days without the means to also getting into other elite universities like
Stanford or UCB.

Second, if all you want to do is make it into UW CSE, it is a risk. I remember
the anxiety I went through as an undergrad waiting to here about whether I was
excepted into the program or not. I got in, but it was by no means certain (I
had 2.9/3.2/3.8 grades for physics, mostly do to me being slow to adjust to
high-pressure weed out classes).

I believe most public state schools are like this, they might have a few
programs that are very high-quality compared to others, and therefore have to
limit supply even after they have accepted students into the general
population.

~~~
nickbarnwell
> First, UW is already mostly an elite university

UW had a ~58% admit rate in 2011, MIT's was 9.6%, Harvard's was 6.2%, and
Stanford was 7.1%. To say "it's very hard to get in these days without the
means to also getting into other elite universities" is patently false.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Admit rates for private schools are lower since they generally take from a
national pool, and the schools are quite popular (lots of noise applications
with no chance of getting in). In comparison, UCB has a 21% admit rate from a
large state of California and lots of other research schools in competition
(UCSD, UCLA, UCD...). UW is only one of two research state schools in
Washington, the other being WSU way across the state. Admission is incredibly
convoluted: you chance of getting in from the Seattle area is much lower than
Eastern Washington, and out of state students have a higher chance than in
state (they pay more tuition). This means there are cases (personally known
of) where a student is rejected from UW and is accepted into UCB and Stanford
(though they have to pay a lot more tuition accordingly).

~~~
nickbarnwell
I am very aware of how the process works and how one's chances are based on
holistic factors. Regardless, I spent the last year at UW and to say it's an
elite school one would need to ignore large swaths of those who attend. I have
had the fortune to speak with tens of former and current Stanford attendees
while at Google this summer - overwhelmingly their ability to carry on an
interesting conversation, make nuanced insights into diverse topics, and
otherwise convey the impression that they are learned individuals far exceeds
that of your typical UW student. That is not to say that they don't exist - I
could say the same for a handful of UW students - merely that their number is
far smaller, and that that greatly impacts the culture.

If you want empirical data, a student in the 25th percentile at MIT has a
higher SAT score than someone in the 75th at UW. The SAT has been shown to be
a fairly reliable indicator of earning potential.

[1] Estimating the Payoff to Attending a More Selective College, Dale &
Krueger

~~~
seanmcdirmid
UW is still a local state school; you shouldn't expect that students come in
with the level of prep as say MIT or Stanford. Its elitness is local and comes
mainly from the challenge of getting in, which, for those that bother to try
(because they are in the Seattle area), is painful enough! UW also tended to
weed students out rather early while I was there; 50% of my friends from the
incoming class were gone by the time I hit my sophmore year.

Of course, UW is not as exclusive as UW CSE, but to suggest UW itself is just
a so so University is insulting to me.

~~~
nickbarnwell
> UW is not as exclusive as UW CSE, but to suggest UW itself is just a so so
> University is insulting to me.

I'm sorry you feel that way, I am merely sharing my experiences and
impressions of the school, and "so so" is certainly how I would describe it. I
had the fortune of attending a fairly elite international school abroad and a
highly ranked public high school in Massachusetts. In both places the caliber
of student was high, and I was rather disappointed to find university less so.
I have my biases, as you yours, but I do believe my argument has some merit.

That said, to call a school "elite" because it is difficult for locals to get
in is both disingenuous and inconsistent with your prior statement that it is
nearly as competitive as its more widely known and more prestigious
competitors. UW continues to care increasingly less about its undergraduate
population and view them as a funding source for research as much as valuable
contributors to the campus community. Tuition hikes are putting it closer and
closer to the cost of attending a private university at the same time class
sizes are larger than ever and making it so most fresher could go an entire
year without so much as meeting a professor one-on-one.

What most boggles me however, is that Seattleites remain fiercely devoted to
the school. In Massachusetts (and New England in general) it's rare to find
ten people in a room having gone to the same university, whereas in Seattle it
seems the rare occasion for that _not_ to be the case. Is it the lack of
viable alternatives for the highly capable wanting to stay close to home?

~~~
larrys
"In both places the caliber of student was high, and I was rather disappointed
to find university less so."

I have to say that my experience in a similar situation (many years ago) was
similar and I agree.

But in your other comment where you said this:

"tens of former and current Stanford attendees while at Google"

You are taking a group of "Stanford attendees" who ended up with jobs at
google. So I'm wondering to what extent that group is representative of
Stanford attendees and not google's hiring practices. Was there a difference
that you could tell with those working at google who didn't go to Stanford?

~~~
nickbarnwell
> But in your other comment where you said this: > "tens of former and current
> Stanford attendees while at Google"

I stated that rather poorly. I am interning at Google in Mountain View for the
Summer, but not all of the Stanford attendees I have met and spoken with at
length are working there, though most at Google are certainly bright.

Regardless of whether they are working at Google, Facebook, hacking away in a
SOMA loft, or hunkered down in their parents' garage all of them have been
highly intelligent and fun to be around. Whether that's more representative of
who I choose to befriend with than the university's admission practices is
another question altogether ;)

------
mappum
This article focuses more on potential employees graduating from UW, but
Seattle is a great place to found a startup. In the Valley, everything is
pretty crowded, and if you can find real estate, it's not going to be cheap.

In Seattle, it's a buyers market and you can grab some office space or a
hacker house for a lot less.

There are more startup resources in the Valley (accelerators/angels/VCs), but
that doesn't mean there is a good amount in the Emerald City. One of them,
Madrona Venture Group (<http://www.madrona.com/>), just raised $300M to be
invested in startups. There are also a few hacker spaces popping up, such as
Surf Incubator (<http://www.surfincubator.com>).

If you want a good place to start your company with less competition and more
rain, move to Seattle.

~~~
omrim
I think its a great place to found a startup. I graduated three weeks ago from
the U, and chose to stay up in Seattle to launch <http://ziibra.com>

The tech community here is great, and the university is moving towards
supporting entre x CS... especially through its CS Entrepreneurship courses.

There's definitely work to do, but the city and the university are moving in
the right direction.

------
usaar333
> Although Stanford is considered the Hogwarts of techdom, U.W. has quietly
> established itself as the other West Coast nexus of the information economy.

Odd line given that Berkeley is also on the West Coast and is ranked as high
as Stanford.

~~~
wickedchicken
> Odd line given that Berkeley is also on the West Coast and is ranked as high
> as Stanford.

This is a NYT Technology article, don't expect anything to make sense.

------
chrismealy
Is it still the case that you need straight As in math and physics to get into
CS at UW? It's insane that they crank out psych and english majors by the
thousands but keep a lid on CS.

~~~
BadassFractal
They were pretty lenient back in the day for out-of-state students. I got an
offer without particularly outstanding grades.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I'm sure you mean getting into UW and not getting into UW CSE. UWCSE wouldn't
care if you were in/out state, and you would apply in your Sophmore year
according to marks you got in your first two years.

------
wickedchicken
Sorry Pacific Northwest: the NYT Technology section found you. Expect some
really weird and disconnected articles about how you have pull in "the IT
sector" or "big data" or whatever analysts from obscure hedge funds think is
the next thing. Hopefully we can stem the damage before they notice Austin or
Boston.

~~~
InclinedPlane
I'm a little baffled why the attention is coming now. The Seattle area has
been home to Microsoft and Amazon for ages, as well as Valve, Nintendo of
America, and many others. Not to mention the sizeable facebook and google
campuses which hardly sprouted up over night (google has had a big presence in
Seattle for about a decade). On top of that there is also digipen which has
been one of the few well regarded trade schools for video game design and
engineering in the entire country. And, of course, there is UW.

My working assumption is that the tech press is so massively insular it has a
lot of difficulty seeing beyond the silicon valley / NYC scene.

------
randomwalker
The article is timely. A couple of additional data points:

UW CS had a huge increase in admissions (and yield) for the Ph.D. program this
year. IIRC they mentioned the incoming class size is almost twice what they
had last year.

Aided by a recent budget increase, the department also hired a massive number
of new faculty this year.

------
eragnew
Glad that Seattle is getting noticed. Wish more Seattle people would stay in
Seattle rather than think they need to relocate to SV. Just my opinion.

------
aaronbrethorst
Hank was a co-founder of the first startup I worked at after leaving
Microsoft. Great guy, super smart, super friendly.

------
WalterBright
>even if mist and dark skies envelop the scenery for much of the year.

Obviously written by someone who doesn't live in Seattle. Seattle is a
beautiful city in a very beautiful location. Today it's sunny, 70 degrees,
with spectacular views of the lakes, trees, and snow-capped Olympic mountains.

~~~
celoyd
It is, however, undeniably overcast-prone and short-dayed in winter.

I think it’s worth it, but it is a legitimate problem for some people.

To fend off uninformed remarks elsewhere in the comments, here’s Wikipedia on
the climate of Seattle: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle#Climate>

And to fend off uninformed remarks about seasonal affective disorder, which is
real but doesn’t account for every instance of feeling bad in winter:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_affective_disorder>

~~~
nostromo
I like being outside on nice days. On rainy days I enjoy coffee and coding. My
winter productivity in Seattle is probably higher than it would be in Palo
Alto.

------
shanecleveland
Laying on a hammock across the Puget Sound from Seattle typing this on an
iPad. 75 degrees outside. Beautiful. It's not the norm, but it makes it that
much more enjoyable when we get it. In fact, we get to experience all four
seasons, and I tend to look forward to each as they arrive. I can't speak
directly to the start-up environment, but it is a great place to live. The
family manufacturing business I work at has been around for 30 years. As
always, thre are things that could been done to improve the small-business
climate.

~~~
_delirium
> In fact, we get to experience all four seasons

I'd say three seasons; there isn't really a proper winter. The average high
temp in December (the coldest month) is 45 degrees...

