
Ask HN: What to do when you are successful, hate it, and can't seem to change? - sleeplessinSLC
tl;dr: I love software engineering, my skills are quite good, but all too often I get stuck in the &quot;business side&quot; of management. Have anyone else been stuck in business like this? Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get out of the business side and back into the software engineering?<p>A bit of background. I am a self-taught but successful software engineer. I write, speak and teach on engineering topics constantly. I also have a background, due to family, in business so I understand business topics quite well. My educational background is in law, though I dropped, because I did not like law, and I love software engineering!<p>Over the last decade or so I have consistently been put in positions at companies where I engineer AND help with business development&#x2F;product operations. I have always been hired as an engineer but within short order I am snagged for business advising as well. This hasn’t been all bad. I have been involved with the successful sale of 2 startups, soon to be 3, worked with some brilliant people at the top of some Fortune 50 companies, etc. The problem is I don’t enjoy meeting with executives at 8pm over drinks to try to discuss the next big deal. I don’t like to make presentations late into the night to put in front of Venture Capital, Series A&#x2F;B investors, or Executives. I still write software with a team all day and then I am “invited” (told I must) meet with others well into the evening for the good of the business. I come home late at night and I am upset, irritable, hating what I do. Some say it is depression, but would I want a medication to fix what is obviously a lifestyle problem? Some say I should change jobs, but I do that about every 6 months to 2 years now.<p>So, HN, has anyone else been in a situation like this and found a way to just get back to engineering? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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nobodysfool
Refuse. Do you have a problem saying no? Why are you not setting boundaries?
If your home life is important to you then you need to speak your mind. Tell
them 'No, I dont want your promotion, I will be going home at a reasonable
time to my family'. Is that so hard? Here's another tip - accept remote
positions, and remove any business education from your resume.

~~~
sleeplessinSLC
Honestly, I do have a hard time saying no. Rarely is the conversation "We'd
like to increase your responsibility, here is some more pay and a new title".
It's more like "Hey, your opinion in stand up this morning was awesome, can
you sit in on this meeting." This seems to lead into "You can't make it to yet
another meeting about strategy with the investor's? Do you know what will
happen if you're not there! It's the end of the world!"

But, those are excuses that I constantly make. Your advise is solid, and much
appreciated. I need to really strengthen up and just say no.

~~~
polskibus
Have you considered whether an ownership stake in the company would change
your point of view? If you really are valued for your insights on the business
side, but you are supposed to give 100% to development as well, why not bump
up the stakes? See whether they are just giving their monkeys to you (as in
[http://www.amazon.com/The-Minute-Manager-Meets-
Monkey/dp/068...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Minute-Manager-Meets-
Monkey/dp/0688103804)) ? You could always ask for a raise (if shares are too
much to ask for). There's an equilibrium in front of you waiting to be
discovered.

Are the ones dragging you to late meetings shareholders? Or maybe they work on
commission? Or perhaps there's a big bonus waiting for them but not for you ?
Find out whether money is the problem or not, it's easier to find the solution
once you understand others' motivations.

I'm guessing you're more of a generalist than a specialist in one field and
that's partially why you see things the way business would like "tech" to see.
It's actually a good thing and helps you build better software. In the worst
case just change job one more time, sometimes it takes longer than one or two
switches to find the right place. Good luck!

~~~
capisce
Money might not make up for a depressing job, if he feels he's already making
enough to support his desired life style.

~~~
polskibus
I think he may feel a bit exploited, because he's not getting return on his
extra investment. If he's apt in business then I believe that he can like
doing it - just that the environment must appreciate it in the right way.
We're wired for getting the right feedback, all very well described in the
Flow book.

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tedmcory
You have a skill that is rare. Since supply is low, and demand is frequently
high, price yourself accordingly.

~~~
capisce
What if he's not willing to sacrifice his work-life balance, even for a higher
compensation?

~~~
DmitriRavinoff
Raise prices until the tradeoff is worth it or the demand reaches a tolerable
level.

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brnstz
> Some say it is depression, but would I want a medication to fix what is
> obviously a lifestyle problem?

Medication is not the only solution to depression. The internet is a bad
therapist. Consider a real one.

~~~
sleeplessinSLC
I honestly hadn't thought of it like that. Thinking this through with a number
of other comments here and maybe I need to talk to a therapist about being
less of a push over.

~~~
thaumaturgy
Yes, exactly. FWIW what you've described so far doesn't ring like depression
to me; rather, you're unhappy because you keep finding yourself in a situation
you don't want to be in. But this is something you should discuss with a
professional if you have access to one you like.

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nickthemagicman
You must be making baller money. Just live frugally, bank it away and invest
it. And in a few years you will NEVER HAVE TO WORK AGAIN.(or just work on your
own projects)

~~~
nkohari
Your advice of living frugally and investing is good, but since you need,
let's say $5M, to retire in your 30-40s with the expectation of living the
same lifestyle, "a few years" is much longer than you might think.

~~~
sillysaurus3
Does it really cost $5M to retire in your 30s?

~~~
VLM
This dovetails nicely with the conventional wisdom that over 30s is
unemployable in tech fields.

So either retire penniless in your 30s and never work in tech again, or retire
with $5M in the bank in your 30s and never work in tech again.

Also if your gross is say $120K and you keep about $90K of it and save most of
it to retire, living off maybe $30K which is more than most Americans get,
5e6/30e3 = a mere 166 years of retirement, assuming your investments return
about the real world inflation rate, which is a fairly realistic goal. Of
course $5M in the bank and $60K/yr invested means you will have to start your
savings program at age -60 or so if you want to retire in your 30s.

Its probably a lot simpler to just contract like my Dad did. Do your thing
when you need the cash, and when you don't need the cash, don't work for
awhile. Nobody wants the programming contractor to advise the board at the end
of a 16 hour day, especially when they see your hourly overtime rate.

~~~
sillysaurus3
_Do your thing when you need the cash, and when you don 't need the cash,
don't work for awhile._

How would you explain the gaps in employment? It seems to be a popular
question.

------
slashink
I can relate to this, though on a different direction and i know it easy it is
to slip into another role, that you dislike. I haven't yet figured out how not
to do it, even considering switching from these kind of jobs entirely just to
avoid ending up in your situation.

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nounaut
If you're being asked to work outside of office hours alot, then no matter
what your job or position is your company has an efficiency problem and that's
something that should be addressed for the good of the company.

If you're changing jobs alot because you can't find one that suits your needs
then you should be more aggressive and thorough in your search. Let those
companies court you, not the other way around, and get everything you're hired
to do written into your contract. If you're changing jobs that often just
because you're supposed to in order to be considered successful then that's
probably the biggest problem.

Freelancing is an option I guess, aswell as starting your own company without
the intention to sell. That still makes for alot of work on the business side
of things though.

Lastly, you seem like a guy who doesn't have too much trouble finding a job so
risking your job by saying no seems like a small risk to take considering what
you could gain. Also I'ld say that 9 out of 10 times you're just calling their
bluff. You are an investment for any employer. If they lose you after 1-2
years they've basically thrown every penny they've ever given you out the
window.

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zaccus
I think that telling yourself that you're "successful" can be a huge
impediment to doing what you need to do in order to be happy.

If you are not happy with your job/life, then you are not successful. Take a
pay cut and tell the business dept to fuck off, or go work somewhere else.
Having money in the bank grants you that luxury.

~~~
porker
This, this, and this again

------
mooreds
It is tough to give you advice when we don't know your whole situation (do you
need a job because of health care, for example).

Maybe you can just consult? That makes is easier to turn down work you don't
want. And don't list your business experience on your resume/LinkedIn profile.

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spullara
This is the position I was in starting in about 2001 at BEA Systems when I
started helping out on tech due diligence for acquisitions. It sounds to me
like you would make a good founder. Sadly, there are few strong engineers that
can also work on the strategy of the company. I'm not sure why you are being
asked to go out after work a lot, that doesn't seem necessary, but certainly
having a voice at the top and a keyboard at the bottom has been very powerful
for me. Maybe you just need to make it clear what kinds of things besides
engineering interest you and things that you are not interested in doing. If
you are truly not interested in directing the course of the company I can only
assume that you need to stop telling them the right things to do...

------
yalogin
Could it be that you are over worked? Let me flip it around - You are good at
the business side of things so why not do that full time? Move to a completely
managerial/business role and quit coding completely. Get your life back under
control. Coding is something you can always do in your spare time. I work on
side projects at 10 or 11 at night for a few hours and it's enough to satisfy
me. Of course it depends on what you want but it seems to me that you are good
enough to make more money by moving up the chain and you should think about
not losing that. SLC is awesome btw.

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JSeymourATL
> within short order I am snagged for business advising as well. This hasn’t
> been all bad.

Face it-- you're a unicorn. There's NO way you can just do Software
Engineering. You're simply not wired that way. As for the stuff you hate to
do, the challenge is mitigate and manage. Be upfront on your boundaries, set
expectations. Moving forward-- meetings are on your terms and schedule.
Applicable to your situation, here's a good read on setting the frame and
prizing> [http://pitchanything.com/book/](http://pitchanything.com/book/)

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k3oni
As another commenter said remove "anything business" from your resume if it is
in there.

Also something that might help is trying to keep your thoughts for
yourself(keep your mouth shut) in meetings for things not directly related to
engineering or your team's work aspect. This might be a bit harder at first,
been there and it takes a good exercise but at least for me it was in a
company where we didn't have meetings at 8PM with execs.

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vajrabum
Maybe this is easier than you think. It sounds like you have little trouble
getting hired for SE jobs. Are you being hired for your business acumen? If
not, take most or all that stuff off your resume. Then find another job as a
software engineer. The other tack is to avoid startups. A large enterprise is
much less likely to drag you into business discussions if you don't have a
business related job discussion.

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greenyoda
Maybe you'd be happier working for larger companies, where developers are
rarely (if ever) involved with the business side of things. You don't need to
go to a place as large as Google, just a place that's big enough that
developers and business people are in distinct departments under different
management.

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chippy
Go on "sabbatical" \- it's basically a holiday, but people will think you are
being productive and not just relaxing.

You should argue that the sabbatical is a years off unpaid holiday. Take a
break, but still have connections and commitments to the company.

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mapster
It sounds as though you are quite skilled across two important areas. Would
more money in your pocket make these extra duties more interesting? If not,
speak up - they wouldn't want to lose you.

OR

Propose a compromise: you will consult on biz dev, but during day work hours.

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swalsh
Ask for less money (i'm willing to bet you're being well compensated for being
in that hybrid role), and don't highlight those parts of your experience on
your resume.

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dman
Are you willing to sacrifice the tailwind in your career that comes from
leveraging your business skills?

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buckbova
> Over the last decade or so . . . .

Sounds like you're a bit long in the tooth. Has your development experience
gone stale? What's your area of expertise?

I agree with nobodysfool who says to revise your resume. Gear it completely
towards software engineering. Remove your law degree from your resume.

Then, look for new work.

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andersthue
Have you tried to not be a good business man, giving mediocre advice and make
business mistakes to disaualify yourself from that part?

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donniezazen
You live in Utah. Go take a hike, literally.

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spyglass
People equally skilled in programming and business are rare. Hell, even
moderately tech-literate businesspeople are rare. So you are being recruited
to positions where your combination of skills is going to profit the company
the most.

What do you do? If quality of life is more important to you than money, you
say no to the recruiting. Otherwise, you say yes. We can't make this decision
for you. Everyone's value ordering is different.

~~~
pekk
Alternatively, your employer realizes they can get two employees' worth of
work out of you, so they do.

~~~
spyglass
I believe there's additional value being generated by having both skills at
the same time, beyond the total productivity of two regular employees in their
respective fields.

------
beachstartup
our latest hire is a very good senior engineer who was essentially working as
a sales/marketing technical resource at his previous job, and was on a career
track to become a vp of sales and marketing. he had "director of X" titles
before that at large orgs as well. age early 40's.

when he quit and came to work for us, the first thing he said was "i want to
make it crystal clear that i do not want to be an executive at your company. i
want to be a senior engineer. i want to stay at home with my family and take
care of your technical needs."

when you are clear with your requirements, and you get clear requirements from
the employer, good situations can arise.

having said all that, he didn't need the extra money that comes with being an
executive - he's doing just fine - some people do need the money, however.
it's just a question of personal priorities.

------
antidaily
Get a drug habit.

