
Sleeve cap ease is bogus (2005) - djsumdog
https://fashion-incubator.com/sleeve_cap_ease_is_bogus/
======
Animats
The pattern maker who got the stripes to match in both dimensions probably
used a textile CAD program to do it. There's software for this. High end: [1]
Low end: [2]

"Pattern Design Software (PDS) 3D -- A set of 3D tools that display virtual
samples in an innovative 3D digital environment that allows you to fashion
your garment and make quick alterations at the click of a button, powered by
photorealistic rendering for a true-to-life visualization."

"Inspect simulated cloth using a tension map to view the exact value of
tension, distance, and stretch..."

These tools are also used for clothing for characters in games, movies, and
virtual worlds. Marvelous Designer is often used for Second Life clothing.

[1] [https://optitex.com/](https://optitex.com/)

[2] [https://www.marvelousdesigner.com/](https://www.marvelousdesigner.com/)

~~~
maire
It also looks like the top two horizontal stripes on the back are matching the
vertical stripes on the sleeve rather than the horizontal stripes on the
sleeve.

I would be more convinced if the example was a striped coat rather than a
plaid coat.

~~~
maire
It is interesting that my comment got both upvoted and downvoted. I didn't
know that people on hacker news knew that much about sewing!

I will just say what I thought was too technical to say. I have actually sewn
sleeves and have done pattern matching between the body and the sleeve.

Two things impact the pattern matching.

Most of the ease is in the top of the sleeve cap and not in the body of the
sleeve cap. The first thing I do is make sure the pattern is as far away from
the sleeve cap as possible. Then I check if I can fool the eye. If you look
closely at the plaid closest to the top it is shifted slightly which was
disguised by matching the vertical stripe instead. The maker of the coat did
both of these things. So - nothing was proved since this is normal sewing
practice.

The second thing that impacts pattern matching is the stretchiness of the
fabric. Pattern matching in knits is very easy even with ease. I don't think
this was used in the particular coat.

I am very surprised that the author thought that a photo from an unknown
manufacturer proves that easing was not needed. They could have easily proved
it by sewing something. This leads me to believe they don't know as much about
sewing as they implied.

Some of my background: I am a retired software engineer. The first half of my
career was in 2d and 3d graphics rendering. My mother taught sewing
professionally with a home economics degree from UC Berkeley (back when they
had such a degree). She taught me as a child how to pattern match plaid. I
have been fascinated by the math of sewing - but only as a hobby.

------
Isamu
As a wizened old programmer AND a person who has once sewn his own dress
shirt, I'm not sure what to think of this. I recall that easing while
attaching the sleeve seemed unavoidable.

That said I am glad this made it briefly to the front page of HN where I could
see it. Thanks for posting! This is interesting.

~~~
Isamu
I will add that I think the argument being made is: it is received wisdom that
if you don't ease the seam, you can't match up a pattern, and they are
refuting that. If I understand this correctly I think this article is right,
there are geometric ways around that ... but I think the original wisdom
applies to a context of fashion surrounding the sleeve cap. The way that the
sleeve is attached is itself subject to fashion, such that easing is partly to
achieve an effect, and not just to match things up.

------
throw7
I still have no idea what a "sleeve cap ease" is, but reading that post is
fascinatingly esoteric.

~~~
rantwasp
that's life 95% of the time. many people have an opinion, but most of them
don't have the depth needed. the important thing is that you 1) are curious 2)
you keep learning.

~~~
grativo
In regards to this, what approaches can people take to become more T-shaped? I
consider Hacker News a very good resource for learning, however, I sometimes
feel overwhelmed by the amount of information I miss out on.

~~~
gbear605
Something that I like to do is try to come up with every topic that I can
possibly think of. I just thought about what I might interact with on an
average day and came up with clothing design, restaurants management, window
installation, gasoline manufacture, and book binding. And then I try to find
out the bare basics about each topic, no matter how weird or esoteric.

------
jonluca
This is an example of one of those rare posts made by an expert that is
generally understandable by anyone, but still gives glimpses into the mastery
of the work by the author. Great read, love old posts like these. I have never
even thought about how it's a challenge to get patterns to line up correctly
on clothing.

------
tines
> So on the face of it, what does this photograph tell you -other than that
> the model is right-handed?

That's some Sherlock Holmes stuff right there, to me at least.

~~~
mohn
I assume that conclusion is drawn because of how much lower the right shoulder
is.

A physical therapist told me that the shoulder of the dominant hand tends to
be a bit lower. It's probably not common knowledge, but patternmakers and
tailors would come across it in their line of work.

~~~
bo1024
I assumed it was because of the hair.

------
andrewflnr
This is fascinating, but I'm not nearly sewing-literate enough to fully follow
it. This is the best resource I can easily find for exactly what is being
discussed: [https://seekatesew.com/sewing-101-ease-
sleeve/](https://seekatesew.com/sewing-101-ease-sleeve/) I guess people
literally make the circumference of the arm hole in the sleeve smaller than
that in the torso portion, and compress it to fit in the process of sewing
them together.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
It's the reverse. The circumference of top of the sleeve is cut larger than
the hole in the torso.

~~~
andrewflnr
Dammit. I _knew_ that and still managed to write the opposite.

------
joostdecock
There's something really nice about people who know their stuff explaining
things. But this is not it.

Everything Kathleen writes is abrasive, borderline insulting to the reader. I
want to read her work, I have her book sitting on the shelf here. But I wish
someone would explain to her that kindness goes a lot further than mockery.

Also, sleevecap ease is obviously not bogus. You can just get away without it
on this type of fabric.

------
Rapzid
That may or may not be the correct pattern for a sleeve but their reasoning
seems like bro science to me. Your arms hang forward because when you raise
your arms your pits are facing you in the mirror? The person doesn't seem to
have a good understanding of the shoulder complex.

~~~
Camillo
Their actual argument is that the arms don't sit exactly to the sides of the
body like in a Lego man, which is true. The armpit example is just a little
exercise people can do at home to convince themselves of this fact. If you
don't like it, just take a look at a human being. There is more flesh in the
back than in the front, the arm has a wider range of movement in the front,
etc.

I also take exception to your use of "bro science" as a derogative. Bro
science is most common in the fields of exercise and nutrition, and if you
look at the resulting bro bodies, they are strong and athletic. Meanwhile,
academic nutritionists have presided over a public health disaster that has
left the majority of Americans grossly unhealthy and obese. The experimental
conclusion is that bro science is far superior to academic science.

~~~
Rapzid
No, their actual argument is:

> Now, if you doubt your arms are on the front of your body, stand in front of
> a mirror and raise your arms -in their most comfortable position over your
> head-…where are your armpits? If you’re like every other human on the
> planet, your armpits are facing you, dead center. If your arms really were
> on the sides of your body (the way sleeves and armholes are cut) you’d have
> to turn sideways to see your armpits.

Which is a load of bollocks. It doesn't take more than a minute or two of
studying anatomy diagrams to see that. Are they centered horizontally like a
lego figure when viewed from the side so they bisect the volume? No, in fact
the shoulder joint is BEHIND most of the volume in the torso when viewed from
the side; so the humerus hangs roughly in line with the spine. Most of the rib
cage(and pecs), abdominal cavity, and etc are forward the head of the humerus.

The real reason the you can see your arm pits when you lift your arms over
your head? The insertion point for the pecs in the humerus draws closer to the
mid-line as the arm is externally rotated and raised while at the same time
the scapula is rotated up and out pushing the lateral border and all the meat
away from the mid-line. Effectively the front wall of the "pit" collapses
exposing the built up back wall.

> and if you look at the resulting bro bodies, they are strong and athletic

I mean.. That's a primary ingredient in the spread of broscience isn't it? The
credibility "results" lends to bullshit? _cough_ supplement industry _cough_.

------
mwnivek
(2005)

~~~
dsr_
It was true and applicable in 1805 and will be true and applicable until human
bodies are not in fashion.

It will even be true and applicable once machines scan you and make your
clothing directly to your own form; it will just be part of what the machines
are programmed to do rather than what a human has to take into account.

~~~
nisse72
I've never really understood the need some HN readers have, to insist on a
date on anything that wasn't published relatively recently. Especially
articles about things that do not change with time.

Maybe every post should have the article's date, so when I read old HN posts
there is no room for confusion.

~~~
0xcde4c3db
It's often a useful bit of context. It's not simply a matter of the validity
of an article, but more that being closer to or farther from an event or
discovery often changes how it's framed and discussed. It also helps set
expectations about what related things _won 't_ be discussed because they
hadn't happened at the time.

(it also helps clarify that nagging feeling of _deja vu_ ; "didn't I read this
a few years ago?")

~~~
jdsully
Its also an obscuring factor. Articles with dates specified don't do nearly as
well as articles that appear contemporaneous. You can see this with the
performance of titles that get modified by the mods, they seem to slow down
significantly after the date is added.

------
jstanley
> Obviously, the total length of the sleeve cap must be equal to the total
> length in the armhole, otherwise these stripes would not be matching.

Not necessarily. The photograph only shows that the pattern lines up at the
back, it doesn't show that it lines up at the front.

------
lonelappde
Not a fan of articles whose main line of argument is vague insults about how
stupid people are. It projects insecurity and lack of confidence in their
claims.

