
With Traction But Out Of Cash, 4chan Founder Kills Off Canvas/DrawQuest - ssclafani
http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/21/when-goods-not-good-enough/
======
chimeracoder
In moot's own words: [http://chrishateswriting.com/post/74083032842/today-my-
start...](http://chrishateswriting.com/post/74083032842/today-my-startup-
failed)

I'm really sad to see this, because I saw myself that DrawQuest was gaining
traction.

That said, I really appreciate what Everpix did, and I'm glad that moot seems
to value that transparency as well.

Failure is a _really_ important part of the startup process - it happens over
90% of the time - and yet it accounts for less than 10% of the dialogue.

When startups and founders share post-mortem data like Everpix did, it's an
incredible gift to the community. A startup may failed, but let it not have
died in vain.

I know moot reads HN, so hopefully he sees this. Thanks for giving back to the
community.

~~~
mcphilip
From the linked article:

>One thing I’ll be doing more of is writing about my experience. Partially
because it’s therapeutic, but also because if there’s a silver lining in all
of this (and there is), it’s that I can help educate others about a path
fraught with hardship, but rewarding nonetheless.

I look forward to read more from moot. I find his down to earth style really
engaging and I have great respect for how he's carried himself managing the
(in)famous 4chan sites.

~~~
frownie
Let me laugh. If they'd be successful, how open would they have been about the
way they make it a success ? Call me cynic, but saying "it's do educate" seem
quite pretentious to me. Show me how to win, not how not to loose.

------
kevando
I always thought Moot (as the founder of 4chan) was equipped to build a
product far different than something tame like Canvas. It's never good when
something fails, but I hope he gets in touch with his weird side and relishes
the fact he created one of the most bizarre places on the internet.

~~~
GhotiFish
You're right.

Moot needs to start exploiting his strength (heading the most unruly
demographic on the internet). His name really does mean something to the users
of 4chan, and that's a pretty big demographic.

That demographic could make his next project infamous. infamous is still
famous.

~~~
krisgee
eh, I don't know. I remember when he first announced Canvas and most of 4chan
simply responded "so what?" moot does mean something to most 4chan users but
mostly just because they get to post in a moot thread I'm not sure you can
really capitalize on that userbase, at least not in a monetizable way.

~~~
GhotiFish
Canvas was targeted at a separate demographic. I remember reading the
introduction screens for canvas and cringing.

"Take this image and remix it with your creativity!" (to paraphrase) That line
alone could of caused the mass rejection of canvas from the denizens of 4chan.
Canvas was not targeted at 4chan's users.

------
phaus
>DrawQuest got some traction, but found that selling paint brushes in a
drawing app is a lot harder than selling extra lives in Candy Crush.

Selling brushes in a drawing app makes it seem like you aren't taking your
customers seriously. I know it worked for Paper, but they aren't going to get
any of my money any time soon. I've purchased several IOS and Android drawing
programs, and several significantly more expensive programs for PC. I wont,
however, purchase a productivity program with in-app purchases. Just tell me
how much money you want for your program and I'll buy it. Companies should
quit coming up with idiotic monetization strategies designed for the sole
purpose of tricking customers out of larger amounts of money.

~~~
colinplamondon
That discounts the fact that in-app purchases works _phenomenally_ for many,
many companies. You may personally not like it, but the fact that IAP drives
billions of dollars a year in revenue probably makes it non-idiotic for
companies deciding how to monetize.

No one cares about getting _your_ money. They care about the rate at which new
users convert. Some segment of any new group of users will be violently and
religiously against IAP. That's fine.

Some segment of users will also be violently and religiously against a credit
card form, because they think software should be form. That's also fine. That
segment just isn't going to have very much overlap with the segment of people
that pay you money for services.

------
akbar501
From moot's blog post, "Building any business is hard".

This statement could not be more true. I've had the fortune of founding a
successful company. And yet, I still find that building new revenue streams is
a royal pain. Building a business requires a herculean effort, and even then
most fail.

First time founders often make the mistake of iterating various potential
revenue streams. But the reality is you'll be lucky to create one substantial
revenue stream.

"but you also fail your investors"

Not that this should make moot feel any better, but failing when it's your own
money is no better. You'll spend time thinking about all of the stuff you
could have bought that would have been a better use of that cash.

------
danielrhodes
The MAU for DrawQuest in relation to their total registered users is pretty
good, as long as all those users were not acquired in the last month.

Their DAU/MAU (how many monthly actives come back daily) falls short of a
highly engaging application. It is at ~6%. If that number were much higher, I
think they would be singing a different tune.

~~~
mvkel
This is focusing on the wrong metric.

What if you had 100 uniques / month with a DAU/MAU of 50%? Insanely successful
retention, right? Except it's only 100 uniques! The more important number is
the "top of the funnel," which is the ultimate driver of sustainability.

~~~
catshirt
what is the point in optimizing the top of the funnel if no one is going to
stick around?

aren't retention, engagement, and acquisition equally important? you optimize
whichever is your bottleneck.

~~~
mvkel
Agree completely, all aspects of the funnel need to be optimized, I was
explaining that despite really good DAU/MAU numbers, it wasn't a metric that
indicates sustainability in this instance.

------
tibbon
Chris is a really smart guy, and while this hasn't worked out as well as hoped
I look forward to seeing whatever he does in the future which I feel certain
will be bright.

If you're seeing this Chris, and need anything at all (aside from a few Mil of
investment, which I just don't personally have), hit me up and let me know.

------
noobface
A good example of how the most successful, and innovative people can still
fail. Sobering.

~~~
JonnieCache
He's not _that_ innovative. He cloned 2chan. Just sayin.

The real achievement is not blinking in the face of the craziness he
unleashed.

~~~
bluefinity
4chan was based off Futaba Channel (2chan.net), which was in turn a based off
2channel (2ch.net).

So it's not like there wasn't a precedent.

If you check the footer on 4chan, you'll see it links back to Futaba Channel.
I seem to remember Futaba linking back to 2channel as well at some point, but
it doesn't look like it does now.

------
StuieK
> ”People trivialize pivoting but it’s truly a hail mary, and it’s rare that
> people can pull this off.”

That's not what pivoting is..I think the real reason nobody really respects
"lean" in this community is that all the concepts have been completely
misinterpreted.

------
cpncrunch
Seems like his main mistake was raising $3.6M before getting any traction.
Remember Color? Really, it shouldn't cost 3.6M to build a relatively simple
ipad app.

0.5M MAU is a pretty decent user base, and would bring in a few thousand bucks
a month in advertising. The problem is that once you've raised $3.6M you
really need to have a plan for earning big bucks, and that never seemed likely
with this app.

The other mistake is making it ipad-only. It would make more sense to have an
html5 version.

Just out of curiosity: how much are the AWS server costs? You should be able
to run this site for $50/month, but my gut tells me they might be paying a lot
more.

------
robbiet480
Sorry to hear this moot

------
gphilip
"To have audible" is startup speak for ... what?

"proving you’re worth the valuation of a Series B upround requires incredible
metrics that are tough to reach if you _have audible_ late in the game."

~~~
zwily
I think he meant they pivoted... Probably meant to say "call an audible" like
in football.

~~~
lauradhamilton
For those not familiar with American football, an audible is when the team
with the ball changes the play at the last second based on what they see the
defenders doing.

------
midas007
Find a buyer that can monetize. Killing something with traction is just
throwing potential money, and future credibility, away.

------
abhi3188
A moment of silence..someone's dream just died..wish you the best of luck for
your next venture

------
angersock
Cool product, but apparently rendered moot.

------
Ryel
How many employees total?

------
notastartup
I think building an app around a demographic that does not have a credit card
or spending money might have been challenging from the start, it looks like a
very fun app but at the end of the day, people put down their money because
they think you are going to make money off the userbase. This is why I feel
valuations centered around future profits is bound for major market
correction.

~~~
calbear81
I think the app attracts the same target demographic as games that have a
casual drawing component to them so I don't know if I would say the
demographic doesn't have spending power.

If Drawquest was focused on in-app purchases and didn't find enough traction,
I think they should have considered sponsored contests and sell those
sponsorships to agencies representing larger brands. Imagine if Nike had a
post "Design our new shoe" and gave out a prize for the most upvoted variation
or "How would you change the Honda Civic?" and used it as a market research
tool.

These are the types of branded opportunities that get some marketers
salivating and knowing how to engage their agencies and participate in the RFP
process is critical. I hope they explored these options.

