
Racist hosts, not hotels, are the greatest threat to Airbnb's business - Kinnard
http://qz.com/706767/racist-hosts-not-hotels-are-the-greatest-threat-to-airbnbs-business/
======
wkimeria
I think Airbnb (even leaving out the ‘skirting regulation’ stuff) is pretty
much primed for discrimination. As soon as you require a photo of users you
are doing that. It’s interesting to compare Airbnb and Uber (another company
I’m leery of for skirting regulations).

As a black man in Boston, catching at taxi was an exercise in
humiliation/frustration. Either they did not stop, or they did and were
incredibly rude/racist. When Uber became available in Boston I immediately
joined. It was an incredible experience. No more having to deal with
rude/racist cab drivers, no more having to worry whether I’d actually ever be
able to catch a taxi to get somewhere. I have not used Uber in SF since I’ve
found no problem catching a cab when I need to (and I’ve become disturbed by
their business model)

Airbnb is the exact opposite. It is essentially renting without the benefits
of the Fair Housing Act or anti-discrimination laws. I’ve faced housing
discrimination even with those laws in place (a good program on this is This
American Life’s “House Rules” episode) so I’m under no illusion that things
would magically be better on Airbnb’s platform. here are things they could do
to fix this

\- Not require photos \- Have metrics to track rejection by race (track when a
host says no to one person and then yes to someone else for the same time
period) \- Have a streamlined complaint policy

It’s not enough to ban one host cause he was so outright racist/egregious that
it came to the attention of Social Media and finally their CEO.

------
notmarkus
It's tempting as a host to reject people of a certain type, but the line that
I draw isn't on race, gender or religion — it's age.

I've come to find out that older folks — somewhere around 50+ — have been the
worst possible guests, with no exceptions so far. They tend to be stingy with
their star ratings and leave poor reviews even if they had a perfect
experience. They also tend to be much more high-maintenance and not self-
sufficient, acting as if they think the Airbnb is a hotel and the host is
their concierge or room service.

The cost-benefit ratio doesn't work for me in these cases, so I've been
intentionally passing on older people recently and trying to fill my Airbnb
with younger folks. I never see age mentioned as a factor for discrimination
in articles like these, and it seems that it may not be legislated in the same
way that the other factors are.

But it feels like it's the exact same issue, and I'm willingly becoming more
and more guilty of it.

~~~
MichaelGG
Does AirBnB make it easy to view what ratings people have given? Certainly the
history of an individual user provides much more useful, actionable
information than any broad trait.

It should be easy for hosts to say they only want people with X reviews where
most of them are 4-5 stars. Or a better score that weights it based on the
host rating (i.e. if a user's hosts generally get 5 stars, but this user rates
them all 3 stars, then it's probably a problem with the user, so avoid.)
Perhaps AirBnB doesn't want do to this to avoid putting pressure on renters.

~~~
notmarkus
That would be a hugely useful metric for a host, but it actually is difficult
to see how a user has rated their past hosts. The only method I know of is:
view the user profile and look at their reviews, go to each host who reviewed
them, search through their reviews to find the prospective guest. There are
two points of failure here: if the guest didn't get reviewed by a host _or_ if
they didn't review a host. So when a guest only has 1-3 reviews, which seems
to be about the average for older folks, it's hard to paint a picture.

I did reject a guest through this method, though. Their reviews from hosts
were actually all very good, but when I read their reviews of their hosts,
they contained things like "he was nice enough to give me a ride to the
airport when I asked, though the car was a bit cramped."

------
ercmilla
So a guy all of a sudden sees strangers in his neighbors house. Nevermind
their color - wouldn't you be suspicious if you all of a sudden saw 2
20-something dudes in your neighbors house? I know I would - I wouldn't even
think twice about their color.

This is the example the article is holding up as the example of racism and it
isn't even racist.

The trans example: I'm 100% for property owners deciding what they will and
won't use their private property for. Get over it. You can't go through life
getting offended at every opinion different from yours, even if you think it's
irrational.

~~~
jdavis703
There used to be an era in America where hotels could legally discriminate,
making travel for minorities extremely difficult. This is not a matter of
feeling offended, but a matter of having equal access to resources.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
Hotels are a regulated industry. This is my home and as such, I deserve to
make decisions that I believe to be morally correct. If I google the guy who
wants to rent my room and he has Facebook postings criticizing the US and
cheering on ISIS then I don't want him in my home. I have the right to extend
my personal value system in this way. Big government should not be able to
shove people into my home against my will. This is clearly a 4th amendment
issue.

Don't like it? Call the Best Western.

We also see exemptions to non-discrimintary laws for churchs, mosques,
temples, etc. Its clear that society is not a "one size fits all" thing and
exemptions are morally and socially justifiable. The same way I can't get
funding and entitlements like affirmative action and other race-based
policies, that are 100% racist and accepted by liberals as normal.

~~~
makomk
It's almost like Silicon Valley's attempts to "disrupt" regulated industries
by replacing them with its own alternatives that don't follow the regulations
is a bad thing...

~~~
drzaiusapelord
We live in a society of laws. If Congress and SCOTUS want to get rid of the
4th amendment, then certainly things will change.

~~~
gohrt
Please share with us your legal analysis that the Congress and SCOTUS are
violating the 4th Amendment by passing and upholding anti-discrimination laws.

------
Cshelton
It's a private host offering to rent out to private guest. They can accept or
deny anyone they please to for ANY REASON they feel. That can be race, gender,
religion, anything...it doesn't matter. Go find a new hosts then or don't use
Airbnb.

This problem is NOT Airbnb's to solve. In fact, I don't see this as a problem
at all. If I don't want somebody staying at my place, I'm going to reject you,
period. That's it...you can't sue me, nor Airbnb, stop crying discrimination,
move on.

~~~
negamax
That's really weird perspective. Because the moment you are making a listing
in the marketplace (Airbnb in this case). You are selling a good or service.
And denying that good or service based on someone's race is definitely
unlawful as it should be.

------
seibelj
I was arguing with a friend that convicted felons shouldn't be discriminated
against in job searches, or they will never become upstanding members of
society. Then later I was thinking about how someday I'm going to rent out my
apartment. And if I do a background check on a tenant, and it turns out they
are a convicted felon, I honestly couldn't let them rent the apartment because
it's too risky. I feel bad about it, but when it comes to risking my own
assets, I can't do it!

~~~
Cshelton
Welcome to the concept of Enlightened self interest. It's pretty much the same
as, when poor: "The rich don't pay their fair share", and now if you become
rich: "I pay a stupid amount in taxes".

Many fiscally liberal/progressive ideas are centered around hypocrisy.
Everyone likes to talk the talk, but they don't act upon it.

Others call this human nature...

------
friendzis
Would it change anything if this was about couchsurfing (free service) rather
than airbnb? If it was about white co-renters voting against new black
tenants?

What if I was traveling a lot and would let my friends use my car and/or stay
at my house and all of them happened to be white? What if I was selective and
refuse my best friend? Would it change anything if I asked for some kind of
compensation? Compensation larger than to cover my direct costs? Is it
business yet?

I am selling a used item and cancel the transaction if the buyer is black.
Does it change anything if I resell items for a living and do the same?

I am not asking if this is racism. All I am asking is whether there is any
difference between displaying discrimination in human to human interactions
and human to society interactions.

I personally hate this hypocrisy of treating sharing economy as business when
it is convenient and sharing between individuals when it is not. Very similar
to general opinion I happen to read about Uber: since it is "ride sharing",
therefore most regulations are excessive, yet drivers sharing full time is
somehow a norm.

------
herbst
I dont see how this is related to AirBnB. They may are a good case to study
this phenomen but in reality it is the society that creates this fears.

Ironically it isnt to far off ether. Where i live the majority of black youth
have a bigger criminal history than their white peers. Sure this again fully
depends on how the society treats them.

~~~
return0
Airbnb cant fix society, but they can easily enforce non-discrimination on
their hosts.

~~~
MichaelGG
They could try, if they want to sink their business. Telling people they no
longer control who stays in their home does not seem like a smart move -- at
least for actual home-sharers, not illegal hotel operators. And AirBnB doesn't
want to really recognize the hotel operators, do they?

~~~
return0
I doubt they would sink their business. Airbnb is no longer a startup that is
given free licence to go against established laws. Compliance at this stage
will benefit their business.

~~~
MichaelGG
AirBnB isn't discriminating. Private home owners are choosing to share their
homes. For anti discrimination laws to apply, AirBnB would have to admit that
many of their "sharing" people are just illicit hotels skirting the law.

------
Kinnard
Particularly wondering what this community thinks as AirBnB is a YC company
and some of the proposed solutions to this problem are startups:

[http://www.innclusive.com/](http://www.innclusive.com/)

[http://noirbnb.launchrock.com/](http://noirbnb.launchrock.com/)

~~~
antihero
This was actually my immediate reaction - so AirBNB because of it's size is
going to attract some racist hosts because their demographic is "anyone with a
room".

If you create a site where the intended demographic is "anyone with a room
that is pro-inclusivity", then surely you could create a community around
people who self-select as not perpetuating racism/transphobia/general bigotry.

~~~
prodigal_erik
Those people have embraced the idea of repressive tolerance and would proudly
turn away religious pro-gun Trump supporters.

------
IanDrake
There is latent racism on Airbnb, but I think they're looking at it the wrong
way.

We have two properties on Airbnb and instead of my white and shaved ugly head,
my wife is on profile picture (she's asian). We get far more requests from
minorities than is normal.

Basically, we've cornered the market on asian people visiting Cape Cod. It's
not our doing, but there is clearly a selection bias by renters, which I think
is human nature.

~~~
makomk
Your experience would easily be explained by other AirBNB hosts not renting to
non-whites.

------
niftich
AirBnB is a YC company, so I can see why this is relevant. But the biggest
threat to their business model isn't hotels, or the behavior of hosts. It's
that they're still in the 'disrupt' phase and none of their status quo has
been tested in the courts.

If there is alleged discrimination, some wronged party will eventually file
suit, and the courts will decide whose rights are more pertinent.

If there is alleged skirting of regulations, some wronged party will
eventually file suit, etc. Until these threads play out, they're growing, but
after, they could crumble overnight. This uncertainty is the biggest threat to
their business.

------
james_pm
It's not really a secret that some AirBnB hosts discriminate on the basis of
race, sexual orientation and other factors when deciding on which guests they
allow to live in their homes.

It's also no surprise that neighbours of those hosts also sometimes
discriminate against guests who stay in their neighbourhood.

AirBnB can definitely work towards educating hosts and guests to try to reduce
the chances of this happening, but I'm not sure that it's their job to try and
fix what is really a societal problem that is reflected in how people use
their service.

~~~
MichaelGG
The US collects racial information in crime statistics, right? So it should be
one evaluation of Bayes' Theorem to demonstrate actual increased risk based on
race, if any. Seems like it should be pretty trivial in some areas to
demonstrate exactly what the probabilities are (and if they are even relevant
if background rate of crime is low).

------
guard-of-terra
What's wrong with being "really, really" white? Why it's a "dirty secret"?
That's a bit intolerant to my liking.

(Not coming from USA if that matters)

~~~
Cthulhu_
It's a clickbait and racist title; the article itself has nothing to do with
white people, just two incidents.

Which is what they are, incidents.

------
undersuit
As long as these are personal residences serving short term boarding needs I
have no problem with people being openly racist. To help AirBnB should put a
very large black and white banner on listings where the owners have racist,
homophobic, sexist, etc. visitor restrictions.

I know I can't bring my dog to certain places, I should know whether I can't
invite my black friend.

~~~
yardie
People hate being labeled racist more than actually being racist. Good
example: Trumps feelings on undocumented immigrants being rapists and
murderers.

~~~
khattam
>Good example: Trumps feelings on undocumented immigrants being rapists and
murderers.

Terrible example for whatever point you wanted to make. Here is the original
quote:

>When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not
sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of
problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs.
They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

So, what kind of mental gymnastics do you have to perform to conclude that he
meant "undocumented immigrants are rapists and murderers"?

~~~
yardie
"they're rapists... And some are good people"

Can I use this same logic for your typical Stanford, white male student? I'm
pretty sure if I did I'd be considered the racist.

~~~
khattam
Yes, if 80% of Stanford females are victims of sexual abuse (like 80% of
female illegal immigrants crossing the border are).

~~~
yardie
Raped by whom? Smugglers. And where are these rapist smugglers? In Mexico.

So who is the Donald referring to doing all the raping? Mexican based
smugglers or US based undocumented migrants?

------
Bombthecat
I can confirm this. Even in Germany. My wife is black. Her sister wanted to
visit, they are didn't came but that's another story.

Back to the renting act. They are two parents and four kids. All black.

Well, I'm white. So I tried to do the renting.

Soon or later the topic will come up who will come.and fRom where etc.

Told them, they are from Nigeria and have American passports.

End of story. No one replied.

Ever.

People are still resists. Like it or not. Or they hate children.

Make out of it what you want.

------
mrits
Can we keep these social justice warrior posts off hacker news?

~~~
Kinnard
You don't think this is pertinent?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11960708](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11960708)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11645433](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11645433)

~~~
mrits
I'd rather see the internet as an extension of human life rather than a chance
to have public and private groups regulate it.

------
Kinnard
It appears this story has been flagged. It's dropped off the homepage rather
suddenly. I can't find it ten pages deep.

Blackernews anyone . . .

HN wanna ring in?

~~~
jrs235
Your second line, "Blackernews anyone...", is unnecessary.

~~~
Kinnard
I think it's rather salient:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11960708](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11960708)

------
drzaiusapelord
SJW outrage articles like these hopefully will die out as gawker-style
journalism does. I don't see how this adds anything to any conversation other
than the demographic that travels in the US is primarily white as the US
itself is 77% white. I think there will always be perceived racism or other
"isms." Playing up edge cases for ad imperssions seems questionable to me.
There are 2 million listings on Airbnb, its clear edge cases will always be
there.

Also, it would be trivial to use this brand of multiculturalism to justify
open racism. Why should a Chinese person in Chinatown who doesn't speak
English allow a white family to stay in their property? Or allowing a Russian
to deny a Ukranian? Or allowing a black family who have been victimized by the
police to allow a family containing police officers.

I imagine most SJW's would agree for "special exemptions" for these cases. The
idea that no one should be turned down is asinine. These are people's homes
and by the 4th Amendment the government can't shove people in them. Want to
stay somewhere where they don't have these issues? Then call a hotel.

~~~
Kinnard
Did you read through the article? It seems they're reporting on something
airbnb users, the company, and academic researchers have recognized as a
problem and what's being done about it, including a few startups.

Not to mention the whole socially pertinent(Trump???) legacy of entrenched
discrimination in the U.S.

~~~
101983801
Liberal tree-hugging anti-racist hippie here:

I'm not sure if the original story is racism. If I (white) am staying in a
Chinese apartment house that otherwise only has Chinese tenants then the
_likelihood_ that someone recognizes me as a non-tenant is 100%.

Therefore, the likelihood that someone reports me as a stranger is far greater
than if I were Chinese.

In other words, I'd not be surprised if someone reported me (white) while
staying in a (hypothetical) Chinese AirBnB.

As far as "recognizing the problem" goes: You pretty much _have_ to
acknowledge a "problem" if something like this comes up or you'll be harassed
on the Internet.

