
Ask HN: What do you want from a coffee startup? - bleachedsleet
Coffee is a saturated market, but there&#x27;s lots of room for innovation in the field. I&#x27;ve been involved in a coffee startup for about a year now and since joining the team I&#x27;ve come to realize there&#x27;s a lot of potential, but not much in the way of innovative ideas. Coffee is one of the largest industries in the world right now and with that comes lots of problems, one of the biggest being it is a major contributor to human trafficking across the globe. Human rights violation aside, though: What does HN want from coffee?
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BugsJustFindMe
Every time someone raves to me that their mega-awesome-omg-you-have-to-try-
this Third Wave coffee is the best coffee I'll ever try, I have to squint at
them real hard and say "Your coffee tastes and smells exactly like less
expensive coffee and you're too caught up in the pretention to realize it."
Well, I don't say it out loud because then I'd lose friends, but I definitely
think it at them.

If you want to expand the coffee market, popularize a US or EU coffee that is
actually different instead of just magic wand "better". Open a bag of any
ultra-fresh top brand lovingly picked and roasted by elves and unicorns
American coffee and then open a bag of Sang Tao from Vietnam and stick your
nose in both of them.

~~~
bleachedsleet
I used to feel the same way until I was recruited into the coffee business ;)
Our coffee is most definitely not American but it's also not Vietnamize for
the reason mentioned in the main post: trafficking. We have personal
relationships with all the plantations we use to help ensure a direct trade
product line. But in all honesty your first statement is exactly the kind of
customer we want to target and further educate. If you were an average Joe
content with Starbucks what do you think would make you switch to something
new?

~~~
BugsJustFindMe
Sure, let's talk about average Joe content with Starbucks. Maybe the problem
isn't that Joe just doesn't know any better. Maybe the problem is that Joe
actually likes Starbucks coffee. I mean, people rag on Starbucks all day long,
and I'm sure Starbucks cries all the way to the bank. If I were you trying to
attract Joe, I'd think very specifically about the qualities of Starbucks
coffee and being that but better. And if you can't fathom the idea of debasing
yourself, I guess try to get out and find people who actually really like it
and talk to them about it.

But let's talk about me for a moment. The idea that I (or Joe for that matter)
just need to be educated to be brought over to the shining holy light is a bit
perverse. I've been there and done that already. I've traveled the coffee
world, from the US to Colombia to Morocco to Italy to Jamaica to Vietnam, and
had coffee from dozens of people who "No really, this time we mean it" care
about fondling every bean from dirt to drink and who think it makes an iota of
difference outside of their dreams. Excepting the arabic coffee method, which
I'm not talking about here, it just doesn't mean much. It makes fine coffee,
sure, maybe, but it doesn't make _memorable_ coffee. Only one coffee bean I've
ever had was actually memorable. It sticks with me everywhere I go after
hundreds of different coffees. When I go to a new country or city I go way out
of my way to find it. Only one. And it's not because someone is best buddies
with the farmer.

Now we can get back to Joe. Maybe what Joe likes about Starbucks coffee is
that their preparations, for all of the hemming and hawing about how they ruin
their beans or spoil the experience by self-professed coffee devotees, are
actually memorable. If you want to target Joe, maybe start with a coffee that
Joe and I don't have to already love. It's not my child, it's my drink.

~~~
mixedCase
> Only one coffee bean I've ever had was actually memorable. It sticks with me
> everywhere I go after hundreds of different coffees. When I go to a new
> country or city I go way out of my way to find it. Only one.

Oh come on, don't be a tease.

~~~
BugsJustFindMe
Sorry, I thought it was clear that it was Sang Tao, which I'd mentioned in my
first post. Good luck finding it outside of a Vietnamese import shop. They
have a numbered line that goes from 1-8 that gets progressively more
expensive. But don't think that you have to get the 8. It's more expensive but
not necessarily better. Personally I think you can do some really magical
things with the 1. Opening the bag punches you in the back of the nose like
you've just cut into a steaming hot chocolate lava cake. That's not an
exaggeration.

~~~
dustinmr
Its on Amazon, like everything else. Will give it a shot.

~~~
BugsJustFindMe
In the US that's certainly true. I'm always amazed at how poor Amazon is in
other countries.

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dsr_
Three distinct phases:

1\. I don't know what I like. Help me out? Make it easy to taste a lot of
different coffees, grinds, preparation methods... and take notes on what I
like.

2\. I know what I like. Make it cheap and easy for me to get the 2-3 things I
like consistently over a long time period.

3\. I know what I like, but I'd like to try something new. Make
recommendations for me and make it easy to try the recommendations.

Some people will go through all three phases, some are in phase 2 forever,
some will cycle.

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brudgers
Honestly and my addiction aside, I don't have coffee problems for pretty much
the same reasons I don't have gasoline problems or electricity problems or
water problems. There's a well developed industrial infrastructure that
provides access to reasonable quality products and standardized machines to
process it.

If there's one problem that I have, it's the problem that comes from coffee
being a commodity: price. That's not always a good problem for a startup to
try to solve.

Good luck.

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danpalmer
This isn't a fully formed idea by any means, but here's my experience with
coffee:

Grinding at the time of use is the single best thing one can do to improve
their coffee, and probably matters more than the brewing process, the
equipment, the beans used, etc. Most people (in my experience) tend to buy
pre-ground beans.

First thought is can you include a grinder in your subscription? A grinder is
pretty expensive, so probably not, which means either some creative marketing
to get people to buy one up-front, or maybe repositioning yourself as "you've
bought a grinder/cafetiere/aeropress - now what?" sort of educational brand,
and market in shops where equipment is sold?

Alternatively, the gifting market might be a good way to sell a grinder with a
small subscription, people more willing to pay $80 up front for the grinder if
they are paying for 6 months in advance.

~~~
Eridrus
To follow up on the grinder idea: is there a way to individually seal pre-
ground coffee in a way that means it doesn't lose the aromatics or whatever it
is it loses in the first 15 minutes? Maybe look into what coffee pods use to
seal coffee? It might be Nitrogen sealed?

~~~
danpalmer
Individually sealed portions are much more expensive per-cup, and therefore
nowhere near as accessible. Also sealed coffee is still not the same as
freshly ground - it's a big step up from non-sealed, but not the same at all.

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joeclark77
I've been drinking "bulletproof coffee" lately as part of a diet. Basically
coffee with butter, coconut oil, and flavia. Supposedly gives me good fats and
no sugar to serve as a mini-meal and help me keep a fast. The one thing about
it is that it's tedious to prepare in the morning. Maybe that's a hint that
there could a business selling "health" coffee drinks, coffee with
supplements, etc. That's one thing I really haven't seen offered commercially.

~~~
Cozumel
Have you a recipe for that? It sounds disgustingly fascinating!

~~~
joeclark77
It's a branded thing from a guy who wrote a book called the Bulletproof
Executive. He uses MCG oil instead of coconut oil. I heard about it from Ace
of Spades's blog. Ace is on a diet called "intermittent fasting" and he writes
about the coffee here:
[http://ace.mu.nu/archives/364949.php](http://ace.mu.nu/archives/364949.php)

I can't testify as to its magical properties, but it _does_ help me get
through several hours without breakfast and tastes great.

For me it's one large k-cup of coffee with:

1 tbsp unsalted butter

~1 tbsp coconut oil

1 packet Flavia sweetener

pinch of cinnamon

Get an immersion blender (a little hand-held device that looks like an
O-shaped coil at the end of a wire) and use it to mix it all up frothy...

~~~
Cozumel
Thanks!

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lawpoop
I buy coffee beans in bulk, fair trade organic.

I keep it in the freezer, but even just a few weeks after opening, the flavor
of the beans aren't like the zest of the original unsealing of the vacuum
sealed bag.

I would like something like 1 oz sealed bags of beans that I can buy in bulk.
Maybe even larger sizes. That way, every time I grind, I am getting that
freshly-opened flavor.

Bonus: with smaller bags, you can sell sampler packs, flights, or varieties to
people who are looking to sample your blends.

~~~
LostWanderer
And with a bio-degradable packaging.

~~~
lawpoop
Or at least recyclable

------
Cozumel
You seem to be contradicting yourself, on the one hand you say there's lots of
room for innovation, then on the other you say have no innovative ideas!

Coffee really is a saturated market though and it's hard to see how you'd be
able to break into it, for what it's worth I think maybe a 'beginners guide'
to coffee could be a good starting point, there's so many different options,
mocha, latte, espresso etc something explaining them would be good!

~~~
bleachedsleet
We do have concepts in play, but we're in the middle of pivoting the brand and
I personally was just wondering what HN might be interested in seeing! :) A
simplified coffee guide is a good idea and we will definitely keep that in
mind.

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aethos
Idea: Combine a dollar shave club subscription service with learning.

User gets a starterpack deal, which includes some beans and a nice mug and a
french press or something. Then, you'd have a series of videos/tutorials
teaching the user how to use the tools and how to make great coffee. There'd
be a monthly subscription to refill the users coffee supply and provide new
tools to make even better coffee. This goes on until the user has learned to
make great coffee, at which point you can continue to supply them coffee
beans.

Market it as easy for the user, and worthwhile because they get a new skill
out of it.

The important point is proving the learning and the goods, that way you can
retain users. Think Blue Apron, but they taught you how to cook and also sold
you ingredients.

~~~
gregoriskalai
Already exists: [http://www.thekitchn.com/10-coffee-subscriptions-to-try-
so-y...](http://www.thekitchn.com/10-coffee-subscriptions-to-try-so-you-can-
have-your-coffee-beans-delivered-to-your-door-220420)

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ilaksh
I would like coffee beans, cream and other flavoring/supplies to be delivered
to my door, then automatically stored and later specialized coffee prepared
and served by a robotic barista every morning or on command. The robot barista
can charge itself and then store itself in the closet when not needed.

If possible it could also clean the toilet, but that is not 100% a
requirement.

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dqv
I'd like "coffees from around the world". I don't mean the geographical
location of the beans, but the way it's made. I've tried to order café con
leche in the US many times and have only once ever gotten what I wanted: the
milk or cream wasn't foamy, it was smooth (but still scalded).

Also, ceramic coffee cups with vibrant designs painted on them. Priced between
$18-$22

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yoz-y
I wonder what is the actual addressable market size. For example I know my
needs are very well covered by Nespresso as my main requirements are fast
brewing, easy manipulation, no washing necessary.

Maybe there would be a way to convert people like me (and I suppose we are in
majority) to something fancier? I currently pay around 0.40€ per dose but I
would be prepared to pay a bit more.

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sammyo
Not long ago (historically speaking) one could get a cuppa joe for one thin
dime. Not great, but usually drinkable. So with inflation the equivalent would
be a quarter. A basic affordable cup of coffee could have a significant
market.

~~~
kedean
Pre-made? If you're making your own coffee, using relatively cheap coffee, I'd
calculate to about 11 cents per cup.

~$5 for a cheap rolly bag, those usually last me about 2 weeks at ~3 cups per
day. Even if my estimates are terribly wrong, we're talking a couple cents
difference.

If your problem is with coffee you buy at a shop, then I think the issue is
that you're paying for the wages of the person making the coffee too, and
those have certainly gone up more than the rate of inflation since coffee was
a dime.

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bbcbasic
Come to Australia. Cafe scene is very unique compared to other counties.
Starbucks flopped for this reason. People want to hang out in hip cafes
selling good coffee.

~~~
bleachedsleet
What makes it unique really? I can't really go a block in my current US city
without running across some hipster independent coffee shop so I'm
legitimately wondering what makes the scene in Australia unique in your
opinion? It's something we would consider if the profit margin was worth it.

~~~
xyzzy123
It's hard to point at one exact thing.

[http://www.goodfood.com.au/drinks/coffee/deconstructed-
coffe...](http://www.goodfood.com.au/drinks/coffee/deconstructed-coffee-its-
for-snobs-not-hipsters-says-melbourne-cafe-behind-beaker-brew-20160602-gp9wal)

That's kinda where Melbourne is at. It's almost post-hipster.

More seriously, there are a lot of places that do make really nice coffee.
Beakers optional.

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herbst
I like my coffee fair (produced) and well roasted, which is really rare
actually.

Its hard to give a more accurate answer without knowing what you do

~~~
bleachedsleet
I mean, that's a good answer regardless. Right now, we are in the midst of a
pivot on what we actually do, but what we have been doing is subscription
based coffee that is fair trade and probably one of the best roasts you've
ever tasted: All our coffee's have cupping scores hovering around a 90. For
comparison, Starbucks' best cupping scores are in the mid 80s, and most of
their house blends they serve on demand are somewhere in the high 70s. Folgers
is in the mid 50s. We're currently looking to get more into the tech side of
things...without giving away any company information, we're looking into some
innovative hardware (I know, "hardware is hard") that hasn't been done yet on
the consumer side of things.

~~~
herbst
Hardware is probably even harder in coffee. There are many etablishes brands
doing very well done machines/grinders/whatever. Still interesting niche with
a huge market. So whatever you go for, good luck! And kudos on the good
roasting, i really hoped you dont bring up Starbucks as perfect example (as
i've seen people do) and you didnt :)

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nom
Cheap, fair, well-tasting, customizable, unique.

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jayajay
People seem to start drinking coffee with sugar and cream, and slowly wane to
black (if at all). I did a Google search, and I couldn't find any progress on
genetic modification of coffee to produce sweeter beans. Most of the research
seems to be related to caffeine content, pesticide interaction, and quality. I
am not a geneticist or a plant biologist, so if there's an obvious reason why
sweetening might not be possible, I can't see it. I would imagine that an
inherently sweet coffee bean might be able to infiltrate the entire coffee
market. I wonder how much Starbucks spends on sugar and syrup? It would be
interesting to hear your thoughts, since you have been in this market for a
year now.

Edit: Does Sweet Coffee Exist?
[http://coffee.stackexchange.com/questions/2424/does-sweet-
co...](http://coffee.stackexchange.com/questions/2424/does-sweet-coffee-exist)

According to this link, most people prefer sugar and cream.
[http://www.statisticbrain.com/coffee-drinking-
statistics/](http://www.statisticbrain.com/coffee-drinking-statistics/)

