
Study confirms lifting weights reduces depression - vldx
http://bigthink.com/21st-century-spirituality/study-confirms-lifting-weights-reduces-depression
======
dsr_
In my experience, people who are significantly depressed can't make time in
their lives for exercise. One of the indicators that they are coming out of a
depressive period is that they return to exercise routines that the abandoned
on the downslope.

So -- I strongly suspect survival bias here. It might even be true that
weightlifting is an effective treatment for depression, but it would be
awfully hard to get a negative result because you can't get depressed people
to do it.

~~~
skellera
Anecdotal but I did not exercise before and exercise did more than any
medications did for pulling me up.

It has made me truly believe that a healthy body can help make a healthy mind.

~~~
brokenmachine
Also anecdotal but I get depressed when I can't exercise (usually because of
injury, weather or sickness). The longer that lasts, the more depressed I get.

It has a very noticeable effect on me, to the point that honestly I can't
understand how people who don't exercise manage to stay above water.

~~~
XalvinX
You know walking is one of the best forms of exercise, right? Just take a
walk.

~~~
brokenmachine
I do a lot of exercise normally, it's when I'm injured that I get depressed.

When I've been injured enough to not be doing other stuff, it's often an ankle
or knee injury so I can't go for a nice walk either.

~~~
XalvinX
Sorry to hear that, friend. :-/

------
patrickg_zill
I am surprised that no one referenced Henry Rollins' essay, The Iron:

[https://www.oldtimestrongman.com/articles/the-iron-by-
henry-...](https://www.oldtimestrongman.com/articles/the-iron-by-henry-
rollins/)

Through the years, I have combined meditation, action, and the Iron into a
single strength. I believe that when the body is strong, the mind thinks
strong thoughts. Time spent away from the Iron makes my mind degenerate. I
wallow in a thick depression. My body shuts down my mind.

The Iron is the best antidepressant I have ever found. There is no better way
to fight weakness than with strength. Once the mind and body have been
awakened to their true potential, it’s impossible to turn back.

The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of
talk, get told that you’re a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick
you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing
perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black. I have found
the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs.
Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds.

------
andrewla
This is one of those cases where my instinct is to believe the result because
I agree with the basic conceit.

Given the state of replication in social sciences, though, I'm inclined to be
very skeptical of the paper at first blush, given that it is a meta study [1].
Especially since many of the studies cited in the meta studied show no effect
or a negative effect, and it's completely possible that additional studies
showing no effect or a negative effect were never published or even terminated
early because null results are uninteresting.

[1]
[https://www.gwern.net/docs/psychology/2018-gordon.pdf](https://www.gwern.net/docs/psychology/2018-gordon.pdf)

------
SketchySeaBeast
It good to see a focus on weightlifting, and I'm glad to see that research
like this is proving the same sort of benefit. It seems as though it's kind of
faux pas to focus on strength when other options like cardio are available.
The standard for physical excellence these days has become the marathon,
triathlon, or iron man, where I think that a long term focus on strength
training is it's own unique reward, and it's own unique challenge, taking
years and years of hard work and focused dedication to achieve peak
performance, as opposed to a marathon where (a quick google says) one can
achieve with 20 weeks of training.

~~~
cwbrandsma
I've had arthritis in my knees since I was 18. All those running things just
ain't happening. But I can lift. Lifting helped me get thru a pretty bad case
of burn out.

~~~
beat
Lifting is the best thing I ever did for my damaged, pre-arthritic knees. Most
of the suffering is probably not from the cartilage, but rather from weak
muscles and tendons. Strengthen those, improve knee function, and the effects
of arthritis are greatly reduced, in my own experience.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
It's the exact same thing as people with bad backs. Bed rest may help the
acute injury, but the best solution is to strengthen the problem area, not let
it atrophy.

------
etiam
Perhaps this is a good time to dig up an article which presents one mechanism
I found interesting a few years back.

[https://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(14)01049-6](https://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674\(14\)01049-6)

It turns out skeletal muscle is important as metabolic tissue, with
implications for brain function among other things.

And this story from a few years back was a great read as well

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8748147](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8748147)

------
peterwwillis
"Resistance exercise training significantly reduced depressive symptoms among
adults regardless of health status, total prescribed volume of RET, or
significant improvements in strength. Better-quality randomized clinical
trials blinding both allocation and assessment and comparing RET with other
empirically supported treatments for depressive symptoms are needed."
[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-
abst...](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-
abstract/2680311)

I can't read the full paper, but it seems like "weightlifting"/"lifting
weights" may not have been the only exercise throughout the 33 studies. It
also seems like any kind of resistance exercise, regardless of how you did it
or how well it worked, made people less depressed. If that's true, you could
lift 2-lbs weights for 10 minutes and feel better.

~~~
DanBC
But notice the important caveat:

> however, smaller reductions in depressive symptoms were derived from trials
> with blinded allocation and/or assessment.

------
vanderZwan
This surprises me a bit, because I attended a lecture at Karolinska Instituted
by Jorge Ruas in 2017 about a series of papers produced by his research group
where they actually seem to have figured out why developing more red muscle -
which is the _endurance_ muscle, not the kind you produce with weight-lifting
- protects against depression.

In short, red muscle it produces KAT enzymes that break down kynurenine, which
is a substance produced by stress that is associated with all kinds of mental
illnesses, like inducing depression, if it remains at elevated levels for
longer periods of time. So it protects you from depression by removing one of
the substances that causes it. IIRC, kynurenine is then turned into kynurenic
acid, which then activates white fat and turns it into "beige fat", a kind of
almost-brown fat (so the healthier kind). So it has even more benefits!

I asked during the Q&A if they recommend endurance exercise, or weightlifting,
and they said that in their tests, it was specifically the muscles that you
develop during endurance training that produce this protective enzyme.

[0] [https://ki.se/en/news/how-physical-exercise-protects-the-
bra...](https://ki.se/en/news/how-physical-exercise-protects-the-brain-from-
stress-induced-depression)

~~~
goldenkey
It's a common myth that weightlifting only improves strength, not endurance.
It is impossible to have strength and lack endurance. The myth comes from the
unintuitive disconnect between muscular people and their actual weight - they
clearly have to expend more energy to move larger, heavier body parts. So it
may seem like their endurance is impaired but it isn't the case.

Tell me this power-squatting cyclist lacks endurance:
[https://youtu.be/S4O5voOCqAQ](https://youtu.be/S4O5voOCqAQ)

~~~
vanderZwan
> It's a common myth that weightlifting only improves strength, not endurance.
> It is impossible to have strength and lack endurance.

You're right of course. What I meant was that I presume it doesn't build red
muscle as quickly as other sports. What we need is a comparison of, say,
running, cycling, and weightlifting to see if there is a difference in
effectiveness. Because if weightlifting works just as well, there might be
other factors at play that are worth investigating.

------
Wonnk13
I think there's some truth to this. I get a very different "high" after a
session of lifting heavy vs 90 minutes of running or cycling. I feel like with
weight lifting I get more a testosterone high and much less of an endorphin
high.

~~~
busterarm
I found it somewhat dangerous to play with cortisol levels like this though.

I had to keep lifting, at worse, every other day. If I rested for two days, on
the second day I was completely miserable. Like non-functional, despondent,
etc. When I injured myself and couldn't lift for months, I fell into the worst
depression of my life.

~~~
rc_hadoken
You had to keep lifting? You make it sound like a side effect. Do you think
its possible you are conflating "lifting" with "exerting energy"?

~~~
busterarm
Does it matter? That's missing the forest for the trees a bit, isn't it?

~~~
rc_hadoken
Ye-yes..I think it does matter. It's possible I have no idea what you mean by
your post above. I just don't think there is a problem with "having to keep
lifting."

~~~
busterarm
The whole point of what I was saying had nothing to do with lifting and
everything about being careful if you're going to do something radical to
alter your mood if you're a depressive.

My advice would have been the same if I had said to be careful about abruptly
stopping a medication.

My lifting injury was related to my sciatic nerve. I could barely walk for
months and sitting or standing for any length of time was a challenge. Taking
on any other kind of physical activity was out of the question. The effect on
my mood and the depressive episode stopping my workouts triggered was a pretty
significant problem.

If you're a depressive and you suddenly start doing something majorly
physically-taxing, get really good training and be very, very careful. But I
had great programming and an industry-leading coach and I still got hurt.

------
DanBC
The effect isn't good when you properly design the study.

> In this meta-analysis of 33 clinical trials including 1877 participants,
> resistance exercise training was associated with a significant reduction in
> depressive symptoms, with a moderate-sized mean effect. Total volume of
> resistance exercise training, health status, and strength improvements were
> not associated with the antidepressant effect; however, smaller reductions
> in depressive symptoms were derived from trials with blinded allocation
> and/or assessment.

This repeats many findings. Exercise seems to work as a treatment for
depression until you start using good quality study design when the benefits
over placebo reduce.

~~~
iooi
> The effect isn't good when you properly design the study.

Not sure if you meant to say "isn't _as_ good', since that has a very
different meaning and it's what's actually stated in your quote:

> smaller reductions in depressive symptoms

------
exabrial
Can confirm this from 100% ancedotal evidence.

------
ergothus
This is a topic I'm interested in, because I have NO interest in exercise.

Do I think it would help my health? Yes, outside of some absurd circles,
absolutely.

Do I think it would improve my self-confidence? Probably, if I stuck with it,
but I sincerely doubt that I would because of the heavy incentives against it.

Am I just being obstinate and stubborn if I acknowledge it would likely help
but am still not doing it? I have no safe answer to that question. "No" is
clearly wrong, but "Yes" dismisses the problems.

Here's my problem: Exercise is extremely uncomfortable. It's hot, humiliating,
and painful. If I push through that...it's 10 seconds later and I'm more hot,
more humiliated (even with no one else around) and in more discomfort. I can
push through again, but my brain is well aware of what to expect. There's no
"endorphin high", no sense of satisfaction. Those are at least many days off
in even the smallest of quantities (for me at least - people that cheerfully
tell me of their "good pain" just make me feel more misunderstood/disregarded/
a failure). All the benefits are theoretical and in future, with benefits that
equal the costs even further out, while all the costs and pain are up front.
Humans are bad at managing such equations - I certainly am.

Even this awareness is a sense of failure. Am I making excuses, or do I really
feel more pain and less "good pain" than other people? Either answer is not
good for me. And these are what my brain focuses on while suffering. Listen to
music? Read a book? Watch a movie? Everything is made harder because I'm
literally struggling, and so every moment of discomfort progresses at a
snail's pace. I've been exercising for...45 seconds?!

I know I can't get a training montage that is effortless, but there has to be
something that makes me far more able to sit down and struggle through a
mental activity for hours than to struggle through a physical activity for 5
minutes, much less the actual time (and repeated time) needed for any
improvement. Not that mental exercise is easy - I have plenty of mental tasks
I've been procrastinating on - but I have successes there where I have none in
the physical arena.

I've tried various ways - small frequent things at home, team things, sport-
focused, fewer high intensity things, just taking walks. So far the closest
success was fencing, where I started to feel some of my aches and muscle pains
were satisfying while hurting...but every class was an effort, both to
sacrifice the time and to face the pain, and once I dropped I stayed dropped.
That was 20 pounds ago so I know trying again would be MORE painful than
before.

I'm left interested in the result while having no interest in attempting
(again) without some reason to think this time will be different.

~~~
Thriptic
> Here's my problem: Exercise is extremely uncomfortable. It's hot,
> humiliating, and painful.

I would say a few things to this. Regarding the comfort level:

First, exercise is fucking brutal for the first few weeks, and then you just
get used to the brutality. It never gets easy, but you do get used to being
uncomfortable pretty quickly. Second, unless you're on some sort of program
where you can measure progress granularly, you're going to quit. The enjoyable
part of activities like lifting is seeing yourself make demonstrable progress
over time in terms of weight being moved for X amount of repetitions. If you
just come in and do a bunch of random shit as opposed to a structured program,
you will never see that progress because what you are doing is inefficient;
you will get bored or discouraged; and you will quit.

Check out a program like strong lifts or starting strength if you are
interested in strength training. Those are the canonical beginner programs.

Regarding the humiliation aspect:

I've never understood this idea of feeling humiliated at the gym or while
starting a new sport. Everyone starts out as a noob in lifting, even that guy
who is squatting six plates easily. No one just shows up and immediately has
success, so it makes no sense to be embarrassed about being a beginner.

Many new lifters believe that experienced lifters judge them for the amount of
weight they are moving. I can tell you this is not true. I would never judge
someone who is squatting the bar or 65 lbs or whatever as long as they are
attempting to use good form; I would assume that person is a beginner, and
would be pleased that they are focusing on fundamentals early. I am also
always happy to critique form or provide advice to new lifters, as it is an
opportunity to teach and I enjoy cultivating interest and knowledge in my
sport. Amusingly, so many noobs are so afraid to look ignorant or weak that
they never ask for help, reinforce terrible technique patterns, and then get
to a point where they are moving weight they clearly cannot handle well with
terrible form. At this point, experienced lifters WILL judge you harshly, so
why not just engage them early on and get free help and camaraderie?

Regarding embarking on a diet or exercise routine. I posted some general
advice on how to properly get started (mostly with dieting) and how to think
about best practices here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15604761](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15604761)

~~~
ergothus
> I've never understood this idea of feeling humiliated at the gym or while
> starting a new sport.

I don't need other people to be present. That doesn't help, but even by myself
I feel utterly stupid. The humiliation is self-imposed and a nasty spiral - I
can stop feeling humiliated by not having to face it (aka stopping). And the
next time I have to face it, I'm not only worse at it by virtue of being in
worse shape, but also because I know I felt this way before.

The same thing can happen with coding if you aren't careful - take on too much
at once and you have only failure, no sense of satisfaction. But with exercise
I have no sense of "win" by accomplishing something small the way I do with
something small-but-new in coding.

~~~
brokenmachine
Thanks for explaining your situation so eloquently.

I run regularly, but I have been injured and unable to run for 6 months once.
When I started back again I experienced that feeling where everything just
feels difficult and bad, nauseous.

Trust me, that bad feeling does go away. It was fairly easy for me to get over
that hurdle because exercise is such a big part of my life and I knew what I
was aiming for (probably two weeks for me). But from that I do feel that I
understand what people are talking about when they say they don't enjoy
exercise. You're too out of shape to get over the hurdle to eventually feel
good. You don't even know what you're aiming for because you've never felt it.
It will take longer for you but you can get there.

> There's no "endorphin high", no sense of satisfaction.

IMO it's completely unrealistic to expect an endorphin high when you're
talking about only minutes of exercise. I have had real and strong endorphin
highs while running, but only after over an hour of fast running at almost
race pace, when I was at my fittest. There is no way you are ever going to get
there as a beginner. That's real endorphin high, I mean. You do feel overall
much better all day every day being fit.

What you can achieve as a beginner however is the satisfaction that you are
getting stronger every day. Eventually you will realize that you're not
feeling bad, and after that you will start to feel good, for longer and longer
periods of time. A long time after that you will find that you feel worse when
you don't get exercise.

Just from that I think it sounds like you have an unrealistic idea of the time
it should take for your body to adjust. It literally takes years and years.
People who are very out of shape seem to think if they go for one walk a week
that they will show noticeable effects which is totally wrong. You need to
incorporate it into your life as daily activity.

Is there really nothing you enjoy that has any exercise component? I love
almost any kind of exercise anyway, but I'd go crazy if I didn't at least make
it outside for a walk every day.

Basically I believe you need to try to split it into little chunks that you
can handle. Instead of taking the lift, take the stairs. If you can't go all
the way on the stairs then just go halfway. Even doing that every day you will
notice in a month that you are doing it easier than when you started. Try to
get that incidental exercise here and there and eventually you can do
something more substantial like walking significant distances.

For me, getting a GPS heartrate watch was a revelation. I could see every
second that I cut off my average pace at the same average heartrate. I found
that very motivating, and there's no way I'd be able to measure such small
changes in any other way. You're basically running for weeks to see a few
seconds difference. Also, I can run virtual races against myself from a year
ago.

Perhaps you can find something as motivating for you. You can even listen to
coding podcasts while you walk.

That's all assuming you want to change. If you don't, then just keep doing
what you're doing and you'll get what you've always got...

Using your coding analogy, you wouldn't start expecting to be able to write
your own OS from scratch, you'd start and practice with small things first.

One fact that I learned and still think about sometimes is that every cell in
your body is replaced every 7 years. So if you start doing exercise now, 7
years from now every cell in your body will have been doing exercise from when
it was first created. That's how I think about the timeframes involved when
you are planning to do exercise.

Anyway, just get out there and do something, it's better than nothing, and
maybe you can do one and a half somethings the next week, and so on.

Also, I echo the sentiment of the other poster. A home gym is the way to go.
It's such a big investment of time to get out to a "real" gym and back.

I can go to my home gym, do "something", and have a shower in the time it
takes to just get my clothes ready to go to the "real" gym... And I only wear
pants when I feel like it.

As a beginner all you'd need to start is a yoga mat or a towel to do some
bodyweight exercises. Much better than nothing...

------
XalvinX
Any exercise reduces depression, even just walking or something as simple as
doing dishes.

The brain needs a lot of oxygen. This is obtained from blood. Which needs to
circulate. Which comes from exercise.

This is such a no-brainer, how do they even make an article about it?

------
RickJWagner
I believe it. Weightlifiting has many benefits.

------
anoncoward111
To what degree? A simple Google search will reveal plenty of body builders and
athletes who have committed suicide despite plenty of weight training.

Sure there are other factors influencing their decision, but "just lift
weights!" is too general of a prescription to help.

~~~
mr_overalls
It's amazing how many people seem to lack even an intuitive understanding of
correlation (i.e., "X tends to cause Y"), and think that providing a (usually
anecdotal) counterexample negates the relationship/trend.

Alice: Smoking tends to cause cancer.

Bob: My aunt Wanda smoked for years and lived to be 89.

Alice: Exercise is good for you.

Bob: My cousin started jogging and found out he had cancer the next month.

Alice: The global climate is warming.

Bob: The weather in my hometown was unusually cold yesterday.

Alice: Childhood vaccinations prevent many deaths. On the whole, they provide
a net benefit.

Bob: A child in a nearby town had a severe allergic reaction to a chicken pox
vaccine; children would be better off just getting the disease.

This kind of innumeracy is distressingly common.

~~~
mmt
>This kind of innumeracy is distressingly common.

I would say it certainly doesn't help that science reporting essentially never
gives the numbers that matter, nor explains what they mean.

> Covering 33 randomized clinical trials with 1,877 participants

That's an average of under 57 participants per clinical trial, which seems a
bit sparse to me. Still, that's not my point so much as that those are the
only numbers about the study in the article. Where is the mention of
statistical significance or uncertainty?

It's also difficult to teach, since I don't think we're naturally geared for
intuiting about numbers bigger than we might encounter in nature. Also,
anecdotes about people we know personally are more likely to resonate with us
than mere statistics about faceless strangers (not that it explains why a few
hundred Anthrax vaccine deaths of strangers would have been more objectionable
than the routine tens of thosands of annual road deaths of strangers).

