
White House response to the petition requesting a switch to metric - ColinWright
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/supporting-american-choices-measurement?utm_source=wethepeople&utm_medium=response&utm_campaign=metric
======
lawnchair_larry
"So choose to live your life in metric if you want, and thank you for signing
on."

That captures about all you need to know regarding the whitehouse petition
feature. I'm not sure why it exists at this point.

~~~
vowelless
But doesn't that also capture the essence of what the US is all about?

~~~
borlak
That is what the US is about, and the citizens have spoken through this
petition that we want it changed.

Responding to petitions by telling the petitioners to petition harder is kind
of pointless.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
In all fairness... 50,000 citizens is like 0.016% of the US population[1].
When most elections talk about a 2-3% margin of error, this is so small it is
meaningless. I imagine more than 50,000 votes get lost in the mail.

[1] <http://www.census.gov/popclock/>

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GuiA
>"Since the 1970s, all American schools have taught the metric system."

Well they've been doing a terrible job at it then, because I'm a European guy
living in the US and my US friends never get a sense of what I'm talking about
if I use metric units.

Additionally, I TA'd 2nd year level mechanical engineering courses at a very
large state university when I was in grad school, and most of the students
would get stumped on problems that involved things such as converting a result
in centimeters to millimeters, etc, requiring me to explicitly write "1 cm =
10 mm" on the board/assignment papers.

~~~
bitwize
_Well they've been doing a terrible job at it then, because I'm a European guy
living in the US and my US friends never get a sense of what I'm talking about
if I use metric units._

All Japanese schools teach English, too. Try speaking English in downtown
Osaka and marvel at the puzzled looks.

People who are taught a thing and then don't practice it tend to get rusty.

~~~
GuiA
Properly "teaching metric units" would be synonymous with using them
consistently in all science/math/etc. classes throughout middle + high school.
Doing this would mean that when entering college, students would have
developed an intuitive sense for the metric system.

If what the schools do is just have a 1 hour class which can be boiled down to
"Ok, 1 meter is 100 cm, 1000 g is 1 kg", then I wouldn't call that 'teaching'.

(Additionally, I think teaching a secondary language is a project of a
completely different scope than teaching a unit system)

~~~
Locke1689
This is already done.

No one teaches chemistry or physics using slugs and ounces.

~~~
ebrenes
I beg to differ, when I was in college in JHU the text books consistently made
use of feet and other imperial units like lbs. Granted there were metric units
mixed in as well, but there there were imperial units mixed in as well, often
to the exclusion of metric units.

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crazygringo
> _So choose to live your life in metric if you want._

Ummm... not really. I can't choose to have speed limits posted in kph. I can't
choose to buy my gas in liters instead of gallons. I can't choose for highway
signs to tell me how many km away the exit is.

I'm pretty sure that's the kind of thing people are talking about when they
ask for metric.

~~~
georgecmu
Not strictly true.

I-19 from Tucson, AZ to Nogales in Mexico has distances posted in kph, so you
can choose to drive on that freeway to tell you how many km away the exit is.

You may not be able to _buy_ gas in liters instead of gallons, but you may be
able to _sell_ them in liters if you own a gas station and are willing to
purchase the equipment and make that choice.

from <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_19>

_Interstate 19 is unique among US Interstates, because signed distances are
given in meters (hundreds or thousands as distance-to-exit indications) or
kilometers (as distance-to-destination indications), and not miles. However,
the speed limit signs give speeds in miles per hour. According to the Arizona
Department of Transportation (ADOT), metric signs were originally placed
because of the push toward the metric system in the United States at the time
of the original construction of the highway_.

~~~
pge
Its not the only one. Highways near oak ridge, Tennessee are also dual signed
in metric and english units. I think it has something to do with the natiomal
lab, but I dont know the history.

------
malkia
I still can't get used to the US system, after living here for more than 13
years...

Some years ago, one very smart american coworker told me why the US chose the
non-metric system. Back in the days people had to divide things - land,
materials, lots of things equally between people. If your system is "12"
based, then you can divide by 2, 3, 4 and 6 (well 4 and 6 are obvious), but if
it's metric then it's only by 2 and 5.

Not that you can't divide by 2 and 5, but you'll get rational numbers, not
integer.

Not sure how true this story is, but even if it's not, it's still amazing :)

(Another story I've heard from him was why cities around Los Angeles were
named after saints - San Diego, Santa Monica, etc. - All of them were
connected by a day run with a monkey - this way creating a support for the
established christian missionary settlements - something like it).

~~~
ubasu
All the Sans and Santas are California Missions [1] along the El Camino Real
[2], also know as US 101 for the most part:

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_missions_in_California> [2]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Camino_Real_(California)>

~~~
dragonwriter
> All the Sans and Santas are California Missions

Not all the Sans and Santas in California are missions; there are 21 missions
-- not all of which are in cities named "San" or "Santa" (e.g., Mission San
Francisco de Solano is in Sonoma, CA) -- and 33 cities that are "San" or
"Santa"-something.

------
SilasX
>That responsibility [to teach the metric system] is growing as more students
look to careers in science, technology, engineering, and math, where metric is
universal.

Er, I'm pretty sure it's not that important for a career in math, unless he's
talking about "metric spaces" or something like that.

I'm guessing it's only there because if you mention science, technology, and
engineering, you have to round out the STEM.

~~~
baby
I don't know if it's part of it, but the short scale/long scale of different
countries is annoying (billion doesn't mean the same thing in France or the
US).

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion>

------
Shalle
Has this new petition system actually made a difference? Has the goverment
actually listened to an petition and formed a law or proposition around it?
This is what it's about isn't it? Not just make up some lame story about a fix
that never going to solve the issue.

The imperial system is quite flawed. Measuring using yards, feet etc is
childish and it's in my mind not logical anywhere.

10 mm = 1 cm, 100 cm = 1 meter. vs 12 inch = 1 fot, 3 fot = 1 yard? wut?

The metric system must be alot easier to learn as a child as well. Just my
opinion.

~~~
mynegation
Disclaimer: I am European living in Canada and I wish metric system to be the
only system everywhere and hate to use imperial system.

Having said that I have to recognize that it is a matter of habit. I am pretty
sure there are people for whom metric system looks stupid.

There is a logic behind imperial system. In it, units are duodecimal (base-12)
as opposed to decimal units of metric system. The rationale for that is that
12 is divisible by 2, 3, 4, and 6, whereas 10 is divisible only by 2 and 5.
Apparently dividing things into 3 and 4 parts was very important when people
were not educated enough to understand the concept of fractional numbers.
Babylonian numerals were base-60, there are still special names for numbers 11
and 12 in many languages, and day is split into 24 (12*2) hours and hour is 60
minutes and minute is 60 seconds.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
But 12 only shows up with "inches in a foot".

3 ft in a yard. 5280 ft in a mile. 16 oz in a pound/pint. 8 oz in a cup. 2
cups in a pint. 2 pints in a quart. 4 quarts in a gallon... and so on. The
imperial system is very inconsistent in what can be divided by what. So if
that was important... they failed.

It is also kind of strange that we don't really have a unit of measure between
"yard" and "mile", do we? Something between 3 ft and 5280 ft would be nice. :)

~~~
mmastrac
Small correction:

2 pints in a quart, 2 quarts in a pottle, 2 pottles in a gallon.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
heh... never heard of a pottle. Good to know... I guess. :)

------
famousactress
I had an interesting interaction with our daughter's pediatrician recently.
Our daughter was born a bit early and spent the first couple of weeks in the
NICU where her feeding was watched very closely. All of her feedings were
discussed and recorded in mls. A few weeks after we were out of the hospital
we were at a routine checkup and when we reported her recent feedings in mls
the doctor told us it was "time to start talking in ounces".

Specifically she said that her preemie parents that continue to talk in mls
tend to over-obsess over slight swings in the daily numbers. I found it
intriguing that we'd been jumped out of the metric system for this, but it
occurred to me that I never hear anyone talk about centiliters (the closest
metric equivalent to an ounce).

I guess my question is: _what's on non-US baby bottles?_

~~~
medecau
Not sure what's on baby bottles but on beer bottles I see stuf like:

\- 2L - large coke

\- 1.5L - popular for large wate bottles and regular coke

\- 1L - Large beer bottles, medium coke and co., most family sized juice or
iced tee packs, pretty much all regular milk.

\- 0.75 L - wine

\- 75cl - common in wine and some water

\- 50cl - mostly water and some larger beer cans

\- 33cl - regular beer bottle and cans

\- 25cl - I think I have seen beer and wine bottles of this size

\- 22cl

\- 20cl - "minis" are small beer bottles, lots of juice packs and chocolate
milk

Smaller is probably what they give babies, wouldn't find it weird to see mls
used.

I overhear my cousins talk about full doses or relative comparisons. e.g. "one
flask", "more than yesterday", "he was hungry"

Note that I rarely refer to the quatities. Usually I ask for a certain sized
bottle like this:

\- "small bottle of water" - I expect 25-33cl but 50cl is not rare. Sometimes
I get asked in reply, "half a liter"?

\- "a beer please" - 33cl superbock

\- "coke, plese" - .33 either can or bottle - sometimes a cup with too much
ice and the total volume of 20cl but I know I'm getting fucked

\- "food for babies" - whatever I get handed...

------
jack-r-abbit
I'm one of those people who feel that using the metric system would be better
but the "customary" system is so ingrained in my mind that I think it would be
a bit difficult to switch. So unless there was some sort of forced need to
really learn metric, I probably wouldn't make the effort. Honestly, I think I
would need one of those immersion situations where I have no choice but to
know it in order to survive.

~~~
FigBug
Canada switched to metric between the mid 70s and mid 80s. I was born in 1977.
Things like my height and weight I only know customary units. Food is still
advertised in customary units even though it is sold in metric. Pop cans are
still 12 fl oz but labelled as 355 ml. My grandfather worked in a mill, and he
said after metrification a sheet of plywood still measured 4'x8' but got
slightly thinner. Speed and temperature I know in metric because that's the
way they are signed / reported. I don't think metrification will ever be
completed, we seem stuck in a half way point that works well enough.

~~~
andrewem
When I visited Canada from the US, I bought a 907 gram package of mussels.
It's the same 2 pound package they always sold, just with the size converted
to metric.

------
gcb0
This is garbage. How is it a decision of the people, if all official signs and
communications are about Miles?

Last time i checked you were mandated to have Miles per hour readings in the
dashboard to even be able to sell your car in the US. how is that choice as
the article says?

~~~
asperous
Of all the things we need to spend Billions of dollars on, it isn't a move to
change numbers on road signs and create mass confusion.

Like QWERTY, imperial units work fine enough for most people despite
advantages of other systems.

------
chrsstrm
It would be great to switch and use metric exclusively, but think of how cost
prohibitive it would be. In the transportation industry alone you are talking
about replacing all signage (speed limit signs, mile marker signs, distance to
X signs), swapping units on cars and trucks by default, converting gas
stations to use liters, and of course re-writing all traffic laws that are
speed related. When you really look at what it would take to switch, I think
the only real barrier is more cash than anyone would be willing to spend. The
upside of a complete changeover would be the incredibly lucrative consulting
gigs to assist all involved.

~~~
penthehuman
You have to start somewhere though, it can be a transition over time as well.
Say a law was passed that all new roadside signs erected from date X will have
both m and km, then at date y, years down the road, all new signs only list
km.

For cars, just use the same dials and displays they use in Canadian cars,
metric is the primary unit with imperial also shown, again, on new cars only,
no need to retrofit all old vehicles.

------
jmathai
Outsourcing this to the population means we'll never join the rest of the
world and exclusively use the metric system. Don't get me wrong, it's a
massive change and would probably require many labels to include both
measurements during the transition for a long time.

Also, schools may teach metric but I don't think many people even know the
conversion from kilogram to pound.

This reads as if there are benefits to both and the US uses each for different
purposes.

Is there a benefit of the standard system that I'm missing out on?

~~~
hollerith
>Is there a benefit of the standard system that I'm missing out on?

Yes, the benefit of not mandating the use of the metric system in the US is
that about 300 million people can continue to go about their lives without
needing to adapt to literally thousands of tedious changes.

~~~
jmathai
That's why I stated any reasonable change would require a transitional period.

I agree with you but that's the kind of logic that impedes progress.

------
bostonpete
There seems to be a lot of anger in the comments about this. Given that
there's very little popular support for changing things, why would the White
House cater to a vocal minority on this? People are perfectly comfortable and
happy with the imperial system and conversion between systems (if you need any
sort of precision) is as easy as pulling out your smartphone.

------
joetek
> Since the 1890s, U.S. customary units (the mile, pound, teaspoon, etc.) have
> all been defined in terms of their metric equivalents.

I don't know what the "official" definition is, but pounds are most often
defined as 0.45359 kg. The problem is, pounds and kilograms are fundamentally
different.

A pound is a measurement of weight (or the force that gravity exerts on an
object), while kilograms are measures of mass. When you are measuring
different things, we run into all kinds of issues of translation. You almost
never hear of a pound being converted to "newtons" which would probably be
more accurate.

The US needs to join the rest of the world. [http://www.joetek.ca/the-list-of-
countries-that-dont-use-the...](http://www.joetek.ca/the-list-of-countries-
that-dont-use-the-metric-system/)

------
joshwayne
Overall I think it was a well thought out response to the petition. However, I
think the exposure that Americans have to the metric system was played up.
Yes, it's been taught in schools but lack of practical use in everyday life
means it was quickly forgotten. From my own experience, I had no reference for
rough conversions between systems until a couple years ago when I started
going to a gym that had all the weights in kilos. Only then did I have some
reference to how the two systems related without looking it up.

------
mirkules
We will never change to the metric system because then we would have to call
football "Approximately-One-Third-Meter-Ball". The field would have to be
measured in meters - 91.44 meters. A first down would have to be 9.144 meters,
and I don't think they could measure it that accurately with those orange
cones and chains.

And finally, soccer would finally become properly known as football, and all
hell would break loose among the more hardcore formerly-known-as-football
fans.

:)

------
bitops
A perspective on the issue of metric from "The Oatmeal" -
<http://theoatmeal.com/pl/senior_year/science>

------
Aloha
If you interact with the federal government, its all metric, pull up any Radio
License, the transmitter data is all metric.

I should point out that we are not the only country in the world to sign their
highways in miles, the UK does too.. still.

Americans are lousy at metric, because we dont use it regularly, even though
the government does, and the country is technically a metric country.

------
drallison
The electronic industry is already in metric. Distances are measured, for
example, in units of 2.54 centimeters.

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neves
blah! It it isn't mandatory, it won't happen. Too much inertia. The GPS
example is proof. In android, if your locale is English (American) it isn't
possible to set Google Maps to use metric. The modern Google guys will force
you to use these weird imperial system.

------
DanHulton
Interesting that they chose "customary" over the proper "imperial".

~~~
cmelbye
Calling our units imperial is inaccurate and not proper. Our system is called
customary. Our measurements were based on British units before they were
standardized into imperial units.

~~~
mirkules
To add to this, there are real differences between the imperial and US
customary systems:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_imperial_and_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_imperial_and_US_customary_measurement_systems)

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gcb0
"we already use metric -- but really we don't use it"

great political response. And we pay this guy salary?!?

