
I went to the mall, and a little girl called me a terrorist. - blackhole
http://imperfectwriting.tumblr.com/post/33933007179/i-went-to-the-mall-and-a-little-girl-called-me-a
======
potatolicious
An exercise more people should partake in. Sometimes on HN I find it shocking
just how _completely_ clueless some of our prolific commentators are re:
prejudice, whether by race, gender, creed, orientation, or anything else. The
number of times I've seen people in privileged positions try to downplay,
trivialize, and belittle those struggling with prejudice has made me want to
quit HN more than once.

Walking a mile in someone else's shoes requires some walking, not reading
about it on the internet and making armchair theories.

[edit] Seeing the other replies on this post is definitely way too depressing
for Saturday night - a lot of loud, moralistic victim-blaming without
understanding. For my own sanity I'm going to take myself out of this post
entirely.

~~~
Jach
Some of us have walked in the others' shoes, at least in this limited case of
discrimination based solely on clothing. Guess what? Humans discriminate on
clothing! You can drum up the social justice network and try to remove this
neural programming without drugs, good luck with that. You can try and fight
it, again, sincerely, good luck, I agree that clothing is irrelevant when
judging other people, but I don't think you'll succeed.

However, unlike discrimination based on someone's skin color or gender,
discrimination of _clothing_ has a very easy solution for the person being
discriminated against: change your outfit. Some people who love their t-shirt
and jeans need to wear a suit every now and again if they want to be treated
well or taken seriously by certain people (and vice versa depending on social
context--some formal suit-loving people need to dress more casually if they go
to certain conventions for a talk). If I were a muslim girl getting
discriminated against for wearing a hijab, I'd stop wearing the hijab.

~~~
ktizo
_If I were a muslim girl getting discriminated against for wearing a hijab,
I'd stop wearing the hijab._

So you would, I guess, also suggest that Sikhs should stop wearing turbans,
Jews should stop wearing a kippah, nuns should stop wearing habits, pagans
should stop wearing pentangles, etc.

Not only is your suggestion frankly both offensive and pretty idiotic, but the
world it would lead to would have even more discrimination than now and be a
hell of a lot more boring.

~~~
guylhem
Excellent point. But "if the result of
happiness_from_identification_with_current_religion +
happiness_from_how_people_make_me_feel" is negative, maybe a) you are unhappy,
b) it's not an untractable problem because c) there is something you can
change in the equation, and there is something you can't change.

You know the saying - you can't change the others, only yourself.

~~~
icebraining
Some things are worth being unhappy about.

 _"The more we gave in, the more we complied with that kind of treatment, the
more oppressive it became."_

~~~
guylhem
I guess it all depends on one's utility function.

If you think that in life, suffering is a good thing, or that some things are
more important that your own happiness, yes they are.

~~~
ktizo
Perhaps there is a bit more to life than a 'utility function'.

~~~
YuriNiyazov
No there isn't. That's the beauty of a 'utility function' - it _is_ the "what
there is to life".

~~~
ktizo
Only from a very narrow set of perspectives. There are many perspectives on
life and for many of them a 'utility function' would seem nonsensical at best.
Economics is not as all-encompassing a discipline as some people would like to
make out.

~~~
YuriNiyazov
Would you care to come up with such a "perspective on life"? I bet that for
any actual, constructed perspective (rather than an a-priori incompatible one
like "a perspective on life such that it doesn't admit a utility function") a
utility function can be defined.

~~~
ktizo
Just because a utility function can be defined for a given perspective doesn't
mean that it automatically makes sense from within that perspective, given
that defining a utility function is choosing to view things from an economic
perspective and even in economics there is a difference of opinion of what
that actually means, with some economists viewing it as something abstract
that is only used to discuss more fundamental things and with others saying
that utility functions are in themselves fundamental.

Saying that utility functions are the "what there is to life", is a bit like
42 being the answer to life, the universe and everything in the Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy. What meaning you can draw depends totally on what
question you are asking, or what perspective you are looking at it from.

For instance, if you are a squirrel, then an economist might be able to
calculate a utility function for your behaviour, however the concept of
utility functions themselves have no bearing (as far as we know) on "what
there is to life" from the squirrel's perspective.

------
mgkimsal
Total western white-male stereotype-infused ignorance here but...

Perhaps people avoid muslim women because we don't want them to get in to
trouble. I'm surprised to see women dressed like that out in public on their
own, because I've been led to believe they need male escorts, and assume that
one might be around. if I make eye-contact, I might be contributing to an
honor-killing, or perhaps some acid-splashed on her face.

~~~
ceejayoz
> I'm surprised to see women dressed like that out in public on their own,
> because I've been led to believe they need male escorts, and assume that one
> might be around.

That's a very, very small subset of hijab wearers, and you're unlikely to see
any of them at a Western mall.

~~~
mgkimsal
Possibly, but how can I be sure? Really not trolling at all, but trying to
make any assumptions about what's 'safe' in situations where someone's life
may be at stake, I err on the side of caution.

~~~
ignignokt
Don't you think that your thinking that she might be killed for you looking at
her is prejudicial against Muslim men? Seems offensive to me if you won't look
at someone because you assume a man will kill her for it...

Do you not look at all women because they might have insanely jealous
boyfriends who will then kill them for that too, hey it's technically possible
right, so you should err on the side of caution?

~~~
mgkimsal
I tend not to. Yes some may have insanely jealous boyfriends, but it's harder
to tell in the absence of visual clues. Typical muslim garb is a signal which
does tend to stand out in some circles, and that's one of the things I infer.

No, I don't think every time I look at a woman in a hijab she will be killed,
but it does come in to the back of my mind more often than it does when seeing
other women in local shops/stores/malls.

Is it prejudicial, as in pre-judging? Yes. People wearing certain types of
garb send out signals intended to portray specific meaning. Sometimes extra
meanings they didn't intend are also inferred.

------
sergiotapia
So? If I were to go to Saudi Arabia and wear jeans and a wife beater I would
get looks as well.

You find it strange that people look at you funny when you wear a hijab in a
western country?

I have a Muslim cousin and she sometimes wears a hijab to university but
stopped because people would stare at her. Obviously! She stuck out like a
sore thumb amidst a sea of people with no hijabs. She got tired of people
asking her if she had cancer, if she was arab (lol at this one, people
automatically think muslim == arab), etc.

~~~
ceejayoz
Interesting that you think "look at you funny" and "called me a terrorist" are
equivalent.

~~~
dgesang
The latter was said by a child, so it's not even worth talking about. The
mother acted wrongly, not the child.

But lets twist it, only without the masquerade: Imagine 'Ela' is on holiday in
the Near East and wears a tank top. Don't you think that people would 'look
funny at her'? She also might get molested for not being dressed properly.
Local women even get stoned for that.

~~~
ceejayoz
> The latter was said by a child, so it's not even worth talking about. The
> mother acted wrongly, not the child.

Chances are the kid's asking the question because the parent or another adult
equates a head scarf with terrorism.

> But lets twist it, only without the masquerade: Imagine 'Ela' is on holiday
> in the Near East and wears a tank top. Don't you think that people would
> 'look funny at her'? She also might get molested for not being dressed
> properly. Local women even get stoned for that.

NONE OF WHICH IS THE LEAST FUCKING BIT OKAY, EITHER!

~~~
dgesang
> Chances are the kid's asking the question because the parent or another
> adult equates a head scarf with terrorism.

So either the parents or even the kid itself is brainwashed by poorly spinned
U.S. TV.

> NONE OF WHICH IS THE LEAST FUCKING BIT OKAY, EITHER!

Ofc, stop screaming, I didn't said it was.

------
hnolable
One aspect that is probably being confounded here is that hair plays a huge
role in attractiveness. By putting on a hijab and hiding her hair this girls
attractiveness (at least by western standards) probably went down a bunch of
points. So part of what she may have just experienced is what it's like to be
an uglier person.

An interesting experiment to come up with would be to wear something that
clearly indicates you are muslim but doesn't change your physical
attractiveness (again by western standards).

~~~
senthilnayagam
Just visited dubai, even Arab men cover their whole body in traditional dress
like women.

The whole point is dont look attractive to other people, just like abstinence.

People get judged all the time. I can give you examples where I felt people
judged me because of Eating with hands, drinking coffee with milk and sugar,
wearing sandals instead of shoes.

------
guylhem
If wearing a hijab cause people to call you names, throw bad looks or more
generally makes you feel discriminated against, what about trying not to wear
an hijab??

Maybe I'm clueless and prejudiced and all that but it seems to me that
religion was a perfectly "open" choice, ie something you can change at any
time.

Comparing that in any way to racism is insulting. People do not chose their
ethnicity. People can chose their religion.

Your religion makes you feel bad? Then change it since you can!!

~~~
lucb1e
People don't believe in a religion because it's convenient. If it were simple
like that, everybody'd be atheist, there are no rules attached to that
whatsoever.

People have a belief because they believe. Or perhaps because they think a
certain lifestyle is a good one (isn't that what bhuddism is? I know too
little about this...).

~~~
jh3
> People don't believe in a religion because it's convenient.

How is it convenient _not_ believing in a religion?

~~~
icebraining
Most religions impose obligations, from tithing to attending Mass. I don't see
how it is _not_ convenient.

Which is not to say that convenience should be the important factor in any
such decision.

------
TallGuyShort
When I see a woman in a hijab, I also tend to look away - but it's because
they're worn for modesty and I worry it would be disrespectful to them to
"gaze" longer than necessary. Can somebody more familiar with Muslim thinking
comment on this? I've visited muslim households where modesty was so
important, the women would not even present themselves (however well covered
they were dressed) in front of men outside their family. So although this
style of hijab is much more "modern" - I still don't want to make a muslim
woman feel uncomfortable.

------
harrylove
You might also appreciate Black Like Me (1961)[1]. I think I read this in
middle school or high school. A white man poses as a black man for several
weeks in the racially segregated South.

[1]: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Like_Me>

------
amastilovic
Not being given looks by people passing by is exactly the reaction
headscarves, burqas and other similar garments are supposed to produce. They
represent chastity and modesty, and showing off your bodily features
definitely doesn't fall into those categories. The concept of sending a
message to people by fashion is very simple actually, and I personally think
that reacting to such a message does not represent ignorance. Take the scarf
off and let your face and hair be visible - people will look at you. Cover
yourself in wraps - people will turn their looks away, and that is exactly the
intended effect. It might seem strange to a white girl in a western society,
but that doesn't change the fact.

As far as terrorism reference goes, that's a perfect example of
generalization, another thing the whole humanity exercises daily simply
because that is the way our reasoning works. Unfortunate it might be, but
people generalize everywhere and about everything, and especially so when they
are frightened.

------
geekam
I am brown guy who sports a light beard. This combination alone has got people
discriminate against me. Something as simple as being refused a bacon sandwich
thinking I am a Muslim. I can imagine how these prejudices affect us and
especially people wearing a turban or hijab. The outlook has to change, not
the hijab. She can remove the hijab but what about the color of the skin? That
cannot be changed.

However, I also agree that we, human beings, run to stigmatize an entire
community rather quickly. For example, much of the Indian community in India
thinks that "white" folks are more promiscuous. All of them. It is a
widespread notion that they are ready for sex. There is no research that I can
cite and only a few personal experiences and examples. e.g.
[http://www.whiteindianhousewife.com/2012/04/the-other-
side-o...](http://www.whiteindianhousewife.com/2012/04/the-other-side-of-
racism-in-india/)

How can these things change?

------
stfu
It's all about symbolism. People simplify, people make fast judgments, people
use visual cues to make their life easier. If I walk into a job interview in a
suit and a tie I get a slightly different reaction than by walking in wearing
swimming clothing.

And if it is more than just a fashion statement, but a symbolism of religion,
then we open up a whole new can of worms. The wearing of burqa'esq clothing is
highly controversial, as its banning in various countries across Europe is
discussed and in parts even implemented [1].

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa#Europe>

------
ninetax
This thread makes me very sad and happy at the same time.

So many of the comments show an ignorance I thought to be a thing of the past
or at least taboo.

But there seems to be just as many other commenters trying to help educate and
enlighten, it's great to see that we are at least making progress.

~~~
onetwothreefour
Then you think... shit... it's 2012. :)

------
mythrowaway2
Using 10px Georgia on a Web page does get one wondering..

~~~
lucb1e
Lucky you. On my E75 (phone) it wasn't readable at all. The RSS feed (which
provided the full article with the two images on top) helped me out.

------
stats1011
This is an exemplar of how much courage it takes for women Muslims to dress in
a manner to upkeep their beliefs. Women who wear the hijab should be praised
to the utmost. The society they operate it is xenophobic, and at times very
bigoted. I for one, as a late 20's person of faith, would struggle to muster
up such strength.

------
Kopion
I was walking through TSA about a week ago and someone about 5 people in front
of me was wearing a hijab, and of course they didn't have to take it off while
I had to take off 2 of my layers and then be patted down. I wouldn't have had
to do any of that if those same people who wear hijabs hadn't taken many
American lives over the years. I'm pretty sure I have a right to have my well
reasoned and justified prejudices. If nothing else, I am much more aware of my
surroundings when I see someone wearing a hijab. This heightened awareness is
simply my human nature taking over.

~~~
rgbrgb
All the Nazi's marched like ducks so I always spit in ponds.

"well reasoned and justified prejudices"

------
ISL
I'm relatively new here. Why did this thread disappear off the front page? At
72 points in an hour, it ought to be by far the top post. The current leader
is 67 points in 5 hours.

Are things that get up-modded that fast dropped as off-topic?

Thanks!

~~~
thewordis
People who flag it (click the 'flag' link) counteract the upvotes.

------
ixacto
Imagine if a 17 year-old Saudi/Persian/Pakistani girl decided to wear a tube-
top and skinny jeans and no hair-covering out on the town in Mecca or Qom or
Islamabad.

I am sure the only response would be remarks from children who are not yet
attuned to social norms, e.g. not commenting on peoples appearances. After
all, we do live in a globalized society.

~~~
ignignokt
So the fact that there's discrimination in other countries makes it OK?

~~~
ixacto
The point that I was attempting to convey was that tolerance needs to be a
part of both cultures. We as westerners cannot be reasonably expected to treat
Islamic culture as equal to Western culture if we treat it with 'kid gloves',
or make meaningless accommodations in the name of political correctness.

I am not afraid to say that I have a relatively low opinion of the current
Islamic culture. Sure it may have been great 1000 years ago, but with the
executions for homosexuality, stoning in Pakistan/Afghanistan, and murder of
westerners [Theo van Gogh et al] not to mention the horrible treatment of
women, it honestly just pisses me off. Mabey in some parts of majority-Muslim
nations it isn't that bad after all, but it doesn't really matter as I am
unlikely to have much contact with strict Muslims in the first place.

~~~
ignignokt
But the person who wrote this article was presumably playing the part of an
American Muslim, so what do other countries have to do with this at all? It's
OK to be prejudice against Muslims from your own country because some Muslims
in other countries aren't nice people?

~~~
ixacto
Did you even read my comment?

It has everything to do with Islam and Islamic culture, which are two
different things, both of which have different presences around the world.

For the record, I don't like Islamic culture. I don't judge individual people,
but I believe that a religion that was founded by a pedophile [aisha] and
murderer [jews and others] should not have any influence on the world today.
The best way to get rid of Islam is to stop believing in it, but oddly enough
Muslims have a habit of stoning apostates.

------
flyinglizard
Some Muslims wanted us to fear Islam. I guess that worked.

~~~
grecy
I honestly believe America is captivated right now by fear itself.

It could be nuclear fallout from Japan, or Islam, or H1N1, or drug cartels in
Mexico, or Canadian healthcare, or communists, or the Arab Spring, or any
number of other things that for all intents are purposes are almost entirely
non-threatening to the average citizen on the street.

The focus of the fear is completely irrelevant. The primary goal is perpetual
fear itself.

~~~
flyinglizard
Funny thing about Americans; if they mind their own business, other nations
laugh at them for being stupid and ignorant only concerned about their trash
TV and oversized drinks.

On the other hand, if the average American does show some interest in
international affairs or political ideas, people say he's in perpetual fear
and mind controlled by politicians.

You just can't win.

~~~
Gigablah
You were so desperate to make that point that you equated "interest" with
"irrational fear".

------
hnwh
Where was this?

