
Greg Joswiak replaces Phil Schiller as head of Apple marketing - ncw96
https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/4/21354367/apple-phil-schiller-fellow-greg-joswiak-head-marketing-store-events
======
dlivingston
This is the first I’ve ever heard of “Apple Fellows”. According to Wikipedia
[0],

> To recognize the best of its employees, Apple created the Apple Fellows
> program which awards individuals who make extraordinary technical or
> leadership contributions to personal computing while at the company. The
> Apple Fellowship has so far been awarded to individuals including Bill
> Atkinson, Steve Capps, Rod Holt, Alan Kay, Guy Kawasaki, Al Alcorn, Don
> Norman, Rich Page, and Steve Wozniak.

I wonder what qualifies “extraordinary”. For example, Chris Lattner, creator
of Swift and LLVM, seems to have fit that adjective as well as anyone and yet
his name is absent from this list.

[0]:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.#Corporate_affairs](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.#Corporate_affairs)

~~~
doomlaser
Bill Atkinson deserves it. He almost singlehandedly wrote the original
Macintosh graphics API, QuickDraw, and also created MacPaint, which defined
the UI/UX of the graphical pixel editor. Photoshop is its clear descendant.

The Mac graphics API was interesting, because it was all done in software, as
opposed to platforms like the Amiga which relied on graphics hardware.
Personally, I think relying on graphics hardware acceleration would have been
smarter, as every platform this does now, but it was certainly a bold choice
for the Mac.

Atkinson also created HyperCard, which could have been the first web browser
had Apple managed it better — Tim Berners Lee references it in his original
web proposal document.

It would be interesting to know how many stock options an Apple Fellow
receives, and whether it is a one-time award, or continuing.

~~~
Yhippa
HyperCard was one of the best tools I've ever used. A real shame it never
caught on.

~~~
CydeWeys
I wouldn't say that it never caught on, but rather, that its successor (the
Web), which it inspired directly, succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams.

~~~
Angostura
Not really. Hypercard included a fully functional programming language
(HyperTalk) and a simple database. It really isn't analogous to the Web.

~~~
dijit
I don’t know anything about HyperTalk but given that we live in an age where
the web basically doesn’t work without a fully functional programming language
(JavaScript) and a simple database (websql) isn’t the parent correct?

~~~
scroot
It's not really fair to compare the two that closely. Doing so misses a key
aspect of Hypercard, which is how it fit holistically into the operating
systems of its time. Hypercard "authors" had the ability to do many of the
things their operating system could do from within the HC/HT system.

Hypertalk is also different in purpose and kind from JS. The former is easier
to read than it is to write (Hypercard encouraged learning by copying /
example), and was explicitly designed for everyday people. It was meant to
bridge the gap between "users" and "programmers" and provide true
computational media authoring.

~~~
CydeWeys
It's true that HyperCard and the Web aren't exactly the same in all respects,
but that's orthogonal to the fact that the Web drew direct inspiration from
HyperCard (like, documented, on record, the inventors of Web browsers and HTTP
saying as much).

------
newscracker
I’ve always loved seeing Phil Schiller’s presentations on stage in keynotes
for several years, though in the last few years he stepped back and Apple
started putting many more people (than before) on stage to present in the
keynotes.

A few of his words or lines on stage have been fodder for people to argue on
(“courage” when removing the headphone jack from iPhones) or make fun of
(“can’t innovate my ass” when introducing the trash can Mac Pro that later
went without any updates or news for years). But he was a natural and a master
at presentations, IMO.

If one didn’t know about him and watched his presentation, they’d find it hard
to believe that a “marketing” person could talk so well about tech.

Craig Federighi is another great presenter who brings in humor along with some
puns involving tech terms (not all his jokes may land well, but you gotta give
him credit for many that do).

In this mix, I don’t see Greg Joswiak in the same league. He may be a good
senior VP of marketing, but a great story teller and presenter he’s not.
Sorry, Greg, if you’re reading this. Those others have set standards that are
difficult to beat.

I wish Phil well, and hope that he’s able to contribute to Apple for many more
years to come.

~~~
CoolGuySteve
It's funny, I have the exact opposite opinion of Phil.

Back when I worked at Apple we'd watch every presentation because, hey, it's a
good excuse to slack off at the office.

Phil was always the most boring guy because you always knew _exactly_ what he
was going to say and _exactly_ what kind of non-answers he'd give to
questions.

I mean yeah, it's great he hits the mark perfectly every time, but it's also
so, so boring. He's the classic marketing shill. I wonder if his name is
really even Fill Shiller, it's too perfect.

~~~
newscracker
Thanks. It’s interesting to hear other perspectives.

 _> Phil was always the most boring guy because you always knew exactly what
he was going to say and exactly what kind of non-answers he'd give to
questions._

I never felt this way. Maybe it’s because I was never in a place where I could
ask him questions or watched a presentation where someone could ask him
questions.

 _> I mean yeah, it's great he hits the mark perfectly every time, but it's
also so, so boring. He's the classic marketing shill. I wonder if his name is
really even Fill Shiller, it's too perfect._

I didn’t see most of his presentations as marketing shill. Maybe I haven’t
been paying much attention to that aspect.

~~~
refurb
Just a guess, but I assume someone internal to the company has a much
different perspective, just because they have more knowledge of how things
actually went.

I’ve seen senior folks at my former company do external talks that get rave
reviews and my opinion was always “that’s not how it happened at all!”.

Sort of like not eating sausage anymore once you’ve seen how it’s made.

------
philistine
I had to talk with my wife about her next home office. We sat down, and talked
about a screen, a keyboard, a desk, everything. We looked at a new Macbook
Air, maybe a Mac Mini, and ended up at a 21-inch iMac for her, because it has
everything but the desk and chair. That discussion, with Shiller now leaving
the position, was absolutely engineered by Shiller and his team to happen
exactly the way it happened. His influence on computing is deep.

~~~
Solstinox
Wouldn't give Phil or Apple marketing that much credit. They're good, they're
not that good.

~~~
puranjay
Apple is easily the single most successful exercise in branding in modern
corporate history, right up there with Nike and Coca-Cola.

~~~
mantap
To play devil's advocate, Apple products tend to live or die based on how good
they are, not the brand. Apple has produced plenty of duds over the years.

Whereas for Nike they could make the ugliest shoe in the world and people
would still buy it.

~~~
puranjay
They're "duds" by Apple's own standards. Their margins and sheer volume means
that virtually every Apple product in the Steve Jobs era has been financially
successful - excluding maybe the things like the G4 Cube

------
Amorymeltzer
No need for corporate PR. Via verge:
[https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/4/21354367/apple-phil-
schill...](https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/4/21354367/apple-phil-schiller-
fellow-greg-joswiak-head-marketing-store-events)

>Apple’s longtime marketing chief, Phil Schiller, is stepping into a slightly
smaller role after decades with the company. Schiller is dropping his role as
senior vice president of worldwide marketing, but he’ll remain in charge of
the App Store and Apple Events. Greg Joswiak, previously the head of product
marketing, will take over Schiller’s former position as Apple’s overall
marketing leader.

~~~
reaperducer
_No need for corporate PR. Via verge_

I'd rather read the information from the original source, rather than a blog
re-writing the Apple press release and then adding its own spin.

------
perardi
I saw some snap reactions that boiled down to “he doesn’t want to deal with
the potential antitrust firestorm”, but also, the guy is 60, and has worked at
what I can imagine must be a frenetic pace for like 30 years, and maybe he
just wants to slow down a bit.

~~~
guywithabike
He's also still head of the App Store which is the center of the majority of
the antitrust firestorm, so it honestly looks more like he'll be able to focus
on that for now.

~~~
MBCook
Steve Troughton-Smith suggested on Twitter that he may keep that role only so
that they can fire him as a sacrificial lamb when the anti-trust hammer comes
down.

~~~
lapcatsoftware
Tim Cook just gave a full-throated defense of the App Store under oath before
Congress. There's no possibility of Tim making Phil the fall guy. Tim owns
this now.

------
Despegar
Phil Schiller, and the whole marketing group, are an underestimated part of
Apple's success over the past 20 years. It's why there's no company like Apple
in the tech industry.

~~~
ponker
Nobody underestimates Apple's marketing. In fact I think it's the other way
around, a lot of people pooh-pooh desire for their products as just marketing-
susceptible idiots (e.g. "I could get the same features in an Android for $200
less and it comes with a MicroSD slot and headphone jack... but fanboys need
their iPhone") looking for a cool brand when the reality is that they also
make some of the best products.

~~~
snazz
Exactly. It can be difficult to explain to someone who used Android their
whole life that iMessage (for example) is such a huge differentiating feature
(at least in the US) when they see iPhone users as sheeple who buy purely
based on marketing and product placement. Apple does a really good job of
taking care of the little details on many of their devices, even if Macs are
very expensive for what you get and the ecosystem has such a significant lock-
in effect.

Also, despite the fact that it’s shallow, status signaling is sometimes
useful. Just like with the well-dressed Manhattan lawyer example in the recent
thread about physical attractiveness in legal justice, having the right
product in the right crowd subconsciously affects how others see you.

~~~
kroltan
Yes, but you have to consider also that people have different priorities. For
example, you say that "iMessage is a huge differentiating feature", but if
most of that person's social circle uses other services, there is no advantage
there. And UI polish might rank lower compared to the lock-in.

I'm not saying you're wrong to value those things, but a good amount of people
don't. So no amount of explaining why iMessage is great will convince them,
_even if_ they understand and agree iMessage is great, since the "maximum
appreciation" for any feature is capped by the perceived value of its premise.

~~~
snazz
I think that’s very fair. If you’re able to have that kind of conversation
with someone, hopefully it’s easy for them to see that Apple’s stellar
marketing wasn’t the reason you bought an iPhone; there were logical reasons
behind it as well.

~~~
ponker
Or you could just say, life is too short to try to defend yourself against
accusations of fanboyism, and just get up and walk away.

------
robomartin
Many many moons ago, before the iPhone existed, I found myself reading an
email from Steve Jobs while coding in the garage at 3:30AM.

The email exchange had to do with difficulties we were having working with
Apple hardware in the context of hardware we were developing. I reached out to
Steve at 3:00 AM and got a response thirty minutes later. After replying with
a detailed explanation of the issues we encountered I got a one sentence reply
back from Steve: "I understand".

The next morning, actually, later that same morning, I got a call from someone
from Apple. He said "Steve asked me to take care of this". That person was
Greg Joswiak. We were invited to come up to headquarters to discuss the issues
and work out a path forward. I met him and many other members of the
engineering team while there.

Small world.

~~~
Austin_Conlon
Both Greg Joswiak and Craig Federighi respond to emails that come from anyone,
just like Steve Jobs did. That’s wild how Joz had you even come into the
headquarters to sort out that hardware issue.

~~~
robomartin
Yeah, it was very cool to not only get straight to the top at three in the
morning but to also see immediate action. We were in Cupertino the very next
week, took a few road cases full of test equipment and hardware, setup in one
of the conference rooms and had a bunch of great conversations with a range of
engineers and non-engineers as well. Good memories of a different era for
Apple. Once the iPhone took off priorities changed.

------
vaxman
Very glad Phil remains in control of AppStore mainly because he has _respect_
for independent software developers. Eddy Cue, Hairforce One and Apple
Employee #8 see them like unsigned musicians and should not be involved with
developers in anyway.

What's more is that it's clear their new boss (Tim Apple), like millions of
others, is only now beginning to realize that the "gangster tactics" (of using
math to restrict app functionality) is not totally about about preventing
malware, ensuring privacy and protecting the brand reputation with users. He
seems almost blind-sided by the world governments moving to act on a level
that even Billy and Balmy didn't have to face after many years of actually
killing the life's work (and thus the life) of hundreds of earlier software
professionals (RIP Jay Miner).

~~~
agloeregrets
You’re kidding right? 100% of the 30% cut stuff is Phil.

~~~
valuearb
While I’m sure he agreed with it, the 30% cut predated his management of the
store by a decade.

------
ordinaryradical
I legitimately cannot tell from the way this is worded if this is a promotion
or if he's stepping aside. I guess that's intentional and means it's the
latter, right?

~~~
dutchmartin
Phill became 60 years old, this step is just him taking a smaller role while
he can educate his replacement until he decides to retire (which is certainly
financially possible for him to do after he becomes 65).

~~~
mercer
I imagine financially he probably could've retired a while ago, no?

~~~
robszumski
I would say so:

"Mr. Schiller owns over 69,491 units of Apple stock worth over $18,846,432 and
over the last 16 years he sold AAPL stock worth over $73,528,915."

~~~
PedroBatista
So you're saying he can have big dinners at the local Golden Corral every time
he wants?

~~~
ccostes
He can buy the local Golden Corral any time he wants.

------
valuearb
When Phil took over the App Store from Eddy Cue, he made substantial
improvements in how developers were treated in amazingly short span of time.
Developers should be very sad when he finally retires.

~~~
ericlewis
Eddy has been in charge for years Now

~~~
valuearb
Responsibility for the App Store was taken from Eddie Cue and given to Phil
Schiller at the end of 2015.

Eddie still runs iTunes and Apple Music, iCloud, Maos, Apple Pay, and their
productivity apps. He’s been known to work so hard he falls asleep in
meetings.

------
amrrs
I don't know if it's the age (like Phil mentioned he wants to spend time with
Family, Friends, Personal projects) or it's the recent criticism that areas
like App Store and others got.

Whatever I always enjoyed Phil Schiller on stage. While Jony Ive's voiceover
looked like a real marketing material, Phil's presentations were always
energetic and real. Especially his way of introducing new hardwares and
processors. I'll miss his presentations. Hope he gets good time to do what he
wants!

~~~
microtherion
If the move were due to the recent App Store criticism, it would be odd for
the App Store to remain part of his reduced portfolio, as seems to be the
case.

> I always enjoyed Phil Schiller on stage

My favorite Schiller keynote moment was his iBook stunt:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MR4R5LdrJw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MR4R5LdrJw)

I've heard rumors that Schiller was actually afraid of heights, so this may
not have been that easy for him.

------
faangFar
I predict this is the end of Apple. The marketing is what made the Trillion
dollar company, not the product.

Why would you change what works?

Utterly shocking, I wouldn't be surprised if the stock price plummets
tomorrow.

~~~
simonh
Oh wow “the marketing.... not the product”. How to utterly, hilariously miss
the point.

The marketing is the product. This is exactly why so many people don’t get
Apple and how they operate. Do you know who came up with the concept for the
click wheel on the original iPod? It was Phil Schiller, he suggested it in a
meeting with all the senior heads on how the device should work. Marketing,
design and engineering work incredibly closely together at Apple.

Phil would be a great loss (it seems he’s not actually going yet), but Apple
has lost major contributors before. They have a strong team and incredible
depth of talent. They’ll be ok.

~~~
valuearb
But this is the end of Apple!

It’s always the End of Apple!!!!

~~~
simonh
Proudly on the brink of going out of business since 1976.

------
ericlewis
Bye phil. Hope we can upgrade.

