
There's no easy way to say this - bexcite
https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/55vozd/theres_no_easy_way_to_say_this/
======
sulam
At the risk of repeating a comment I made further down in a thread, the
average QA Engineer salary in Mexico is literally 10X more than one of these
devs was making. Anyone trying to justify this in terms of the Mexican minimum
wage is trying to sell you ocean front property in Arizona.

~~~
Zyst
Aye, copy pasting a comment I posted below:

I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever.
And I do know people from all walks of life.

As to what they earn, again, I live in Mexico, I am employed by a Mexican
company, and work for Mexican clients. I make their yearly salary in 15 days
or so. It really is disgusting that they would treat employees this way,
specially when they were such a big success.

~~~
lazaroclapp
I am probably one of those comments below "justifying it in terms of the
minimum wage". Quite honestly, a big part is that I read it as $2,400 USD a
month originally (not yearly!). Even if that had been the case, I wouldn't
have faulted developers for feeling underpaid in the particular case of KSP
(given how big of a success the game ended up being).

As yearly salary it is indeed atrocious. Still, worth saying, not an illegal
salary. But yeah, I don't see many people enticed to work for that amount for
a for-profit company they don't have significant ownership of. The point is
not on whether or not it is advisable to resign in those conditions (of course
it is), but on whether it is viable to sue (I doubt it is).

And... many people in Mexico do make minimum wage (around 13% of the country
does), but usually not anyone in a specialized profession in a city.

~~~
eropple
_> Still, worth saying, not an illegal salary._

"This is so shitty that the nicest thing that can be said is it's not
_actually illegal_ " doesn't merit the exculpatory nature of this sentence.
And the sentiment behind it isn't really worth much in the first place.

~~~
drdeca
How does that compare to the similar argument when people bring up free speech
(and a person responds that if the best defense is that the government can't
make it illegal, etc.)

~~~
eropple
That's pretty much exactly my argument in those cases, too. The government not
finding a piece of speech so objectionable as to be _criminal_ is a far cry
from a positive moral defense of its existence.

------
empath75
Background: [http://www.develop-online.net/news/squad-devs-blast-
kerbal-s...](http://www.develop-online.net/news/squad-devs-blast-kerbal-space-
program-studio-for-high-crunch-and-low-pay/0220059)

~~~
asimuvPR
$2400 a year? What US dev works for that in this market? You are better off at
burger king.

~~~
kevindong
Farther into the article:

> To be fair to Squad, the Mexican minimum wage is about $100 USD monthly, so
> they weren't technically paying anyone lower than the minimum wage...

~~~
Zyst
I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever.
And I do know people from all walks of life.

As to what they earn, again, I live in Mexico, I am employed by a Mexican
company, and work for Mexican clients. I make their yearly salary in 15 days
or so. It really is disgusting that they would treat employees this way,
specially when they were such a big success.

~~~
megablast
> I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever.
> And I do know people from all walks of life.

But what do you mean by that? Do they get paid less or more?

~~~
patrickthebold
They mean more.

------
jewbacca
Interesting. I didn't realize, before trying to figure out what this means for
KSP just now, that Squad is not first and foremost a game developer: they're
basically a marketing company, for which KSP was originally a 20%-style
project.

I hope this development is not so much a product of internal company bullshit,
but now I'm very worried it is. KSP is one of the most genuinely important
games out there right now. I would be surprised if many less than 100% of the
next generation of spacetravel-involved scientists and engineers counted KSP
as part of their journey.

------
dtparr
Can someone give me a little background here? What exactly is 'Squad'? Is this
just some of the devs leaving? A particular subgroup? They're true KSP devs
and not mod devs?

~~~
speeder
Squad own KSP ip.

The original author quit several months ago.

Squad is a marketing company, and let him start KSP as a counteroffer when he
wanted to quit.

~~~
rocqua
I don't see why squad didn't sell KSP before it came out of beta. They are
probably not going to give it the attention it needs, leading to bad
publicity. Meanwhile, I'd venture game companies'd be willing to pay a pretty
nice sum for it.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Good they didn't, I'm pretty sure anyone willing to _buy_ a franchise would
just milk out every penny they could out of it and let it rot. KSP progressed
pretty nicely out of beta and through several updates.

That said, it's pretty sad to see development stops. At least they AFAIR
sorted out the modding API issues, ensuring a stable platform for the
community to work on. Honestly, that's what makes me believe KSP will be still
improving in the coming years - the modding community is strong and have
already pulled off incredible feats of programming and science (this game
attracts a really specific crowd).

------
Paul_S
Ah, it's a pretty awesome game - the right amount of complexity and fun. If it
was open source it could continue forever like OpenTTD. Then maybe career mode
could be completed.

Honestly, this is one of the very few games I've enjoyed in the last 10 years.

~~~
lucb1e
OpenTTD is a re-implementation of TTD, though. OpenKSP would be the equivalent
(which doesn't exist).

Quake 3 Arena is a better example, which has open source code but proprietary
graphics. OpenArena is the open variant.

Or HoverRace, where the developer released the source code but extremely late.
The game was abandoned around 2000, community dead by 2004ish, and code
released a few years after that. Too late to really save it, but it was still
nice to play now and then.

~~~
welterde
Warzone2100 would be a proper example of an commercial game having a open
source afterlife (including being ported to linux/mac and continued
development to this very day).

~~~
ghostDancer
Freespace 2 SCP/FSO, they have made mods, add better graphics and have a nice
community going strong. [http://scp.indiegames.us/](http://scp.indiegames.us/)
[http://www.hard-light.net/](http://www.hard-light.net/)

------
technion
Some incredible open source projects came out of KSP.

This one: [https://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/](https://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/)

Is a great example. This is the one game I've spent hours on as an adult. I
wish the team the best.

------
t_fatus
Seem like everybody forgot to say this :

THANK YOU GUYS ! you've made an incredible game with what you had, and
inspired a lot of people to write amazing mods on top of it.

------
orbitingpluto
For those that have purchased it on Steam, I'd archive your current version.
Have a feeling the quality is going to go downhill from here.

Wow, just wow. The company must be run by absolute sociopaths.

------
erikb
I spent less than 5 hours playing this game. But I think it is very, very
important for gaming, for space travel simulation, flight simulation, and
space exploration. Would buy it again and feel sad that development stops.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Play few hours more, and before you know it, you'll clock a thousand hours.

As a somewhat veteran player at this point, I confirm that this game is _very_
important for space industry. It strikes the perfect balance between fun and
science - making it easy to just eyeball your Mün missions and blow stuff up,
while at the same time strongly encouraging learning real physics in order to
figure out just what the fuck you're doing and how to hit your destination
using less fuel.

------
qwertyuiop924
First the lead, now half the team. What is it with people jumping ship on KSP?

~~~
duiker101
I have 0 context and background info, i'm not even into the game, but maybe
it's just people moving on. I can see they have created a truly amazing game
and now they are looking for new venues, new challenges. Considering the
success they had I wouldn't be surprised most of those people are also getting
some sweet offers.

~~~
rch
Nope - read up. The (unverified) claim is exploitation by the game studio.

~~~
mxvzr
More claims:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/4hw5x7/...](https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/4hw5x7/in_regards_to_pdtvs_post_damion_rayne_former_ksp/d2t7hdm)

~~~
qwertyuiop924
That's not a good thing, but that's actually quite common in the games
industry. It's bad, and the industry is apparently trying to kill it, but for
now comes part and parcel with the job, in most places.

~~~
qwertyuiop924
Ah, no. I missed some stuff. Yeah, that's a but worse than usual.

------
whybroke
So the main team that made KSP is now all available on the job market?

Who dose not immediately hire that team en masse has missed a huge
opportunity.

~~~
ceejayoz
My understanding is that KSP is a bit like Minecraft - the value was never in
the technical competence of the code. I don't know that you can just throw
either team at a new product and be guaranteed a success.

------
Animats
The devs should apply to the PR side of NASA or Space-X.

~~~
lucb1e
SpaceX The Game. I suppose that could get a hype going (given a better name).

------
fma
At those wages, they can get work off elance, odesk, etc and make a heck lot
more money. I guess that's the gaming industry for you. Treat people poorly
because they are passionate about what they do and can't find that kind of
work elsewhere.

------
mrfusion
This title really provides no information about what this is about.

~~~
odbol_
Welcome to Hacker News; you must be new here

------
jcrites
Kerbal Space Program is a really fantastic game that rekindled my love of
flight (and space) simulation.

For those who don't know about it, it's a spaceflight simulation game. You
design a spacecraft from parts, assembling rocket engines, fuel tanks,
thrusters, command modules, etc. into a design, and then test it and try to
get it into orbit; or from there, to other planetary bodies. _Multiple_
spacecraft if you want: you can dock and coordinate them, or build space
stations or moon bases.

It's got an incredible amount of detail, modeling a whole solar system with
various planets and moons and asteroids. Remember how the staff working on "No
Man's Sky" made claims about how "all other video games are fake, they have a
skybox, the planets and sun in our sky are real real and you can fly to them"
(claims which turned out to be largely false)? Well, Kerbal Space Program
_actually delivers_ on that experience. You can rocket into space, dock in
orbit with something you've put up there previously, gravity-slingshot
yourself to another planet, parachute a lander down to the surface and roam
around, etc.

The game has realistic space flight physics and orbital mechanics (though
tuned to be very generous to players compared to real life). You can learn a
lot about the basic mechanics of spaceflight just by playing it; you begin to
intuitively understand delta-v, apoapsis and when to apply thrust, etc. If you
want to dock with with something then you need to plan an appropriate launch
window. Maneuvering in orbit is very interesting and initially counter-
intuitive (if a spacecraft is "ahead" of you in orbit, in which direction
should you boost to "catch up" to it? If you boost directly toward it, you'll
increase your orbital speed and thus the shape of your orbit, taking you away
from it in a different dimension!). Getting to other astral bodies is tricky
and requires more planning. KSP manages to make all of this challenging but
fun.

If you'd like to learn more about it, or are even just curious what the fuss
is about (the game itself, not the drama), I'd direct you to videos by Scott
Manley [1]. Here's a video of a fairly sophisticated mission starting with
liftoff from the launch pad, made by another YouTuber [2] (skip to 13:00 to
see him planning orbital maneuvers like circularizing his orbit). Manley's
"Interstellar Quest" mission has even more complex orbital planning (5:00)
[3].

The depth of KSP is astonishing and there's not much else out there like it.
It's in the same ballpark as Minecraft in terms of the amazing creative
sandbox it provides, with a world that has a ton of depth to explore. There's
a wonderful atmospheric feel with the music and artwork that happens when you
successfully lift off into space, going from the thrill of launch to the
serenity of orbit. It's a beautiful feeling and one that isn't easily captured
by recordings.

So it's sad to hear that the company and/or developers who made the game
aren't carrying on. The game may not be a commercial success on the scale of
Minecraft but the artistic and conceptual achievement are on par or greater.

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/user/szyzyg](https://www.youtube.com/user/szyzyg)
[2]
[https://youtu.be/RzbDyx4Tpdc?t=10m7s](https://youtu.be/RzbDyx4Tpdc?t=10m7s)
[3]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSzj_uk1fRQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSzj_uk1fRQ)

~~~
mxvzr
> there's not much else out there like it

Orbiter [0] is commonly mentioned. You trade a bit of the "fun" angle of KSP
for more realism. The physics model is more advanced too: I believe
halo/lissajous orbits are possible, it has lagrange points & more.

> with a world that has a ton of depth to explore

Very deep: on Duna's surface (KSP's Mars equivalent), there is a rock emitting
an SSTV signal...

[0] [http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/](http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/)

~~~
garaetjjte
> The physics model is more advanced too: I believe halo/lissajous orbits are
> possible, it has lagrange points & more.

There's mod for KSP for that:
[http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/62205-w...](http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/62205-wip113-principia-
version-cantor-released-2016-08-13-n-body-and-extended-body-gravitation/)

------
JoeDaDude
Will have any impact on the educational version of KSP[1]? [1]
[http://kerbaledu.com/](http://kerbaledu.com/)

------
Waterluvian
Being able to end development is really important. You don't want it to just
putter out.

------
phil248
As a casual fan of KSP, I'm not up to date on all the haps. Can someone tell
me what to expect in the future? Will there be more development work done?

~~~
reddytowns
Apparently, yes.
[http://kerbaldevteam.tumblr.com/](http://kerbaldevteam.tumblr.com/)

------
mindcrash
Some more information here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/55zzmg/...](https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/55zzmg/information_about_recent_events_at_squad/)

Most interesting points: "Another point: Squad has been actively censoring the
official forums. Any content related to the resignation of the 8 devs was
immediately removed. This was done by Squad staff, not the regular forum mods.
With this in mind, it's also pretty obvious that the latest Devnote is full of
shit. They don't want anyone to think that something is wrong."

And: "Currently, there are 2-3 developers left. Two of them were not held
highly by their fellow devs, and the third one is RoverDude, who only work
part-time."

Fantastic. I love(d) KSP :(

------
iplaw
Wow, $2400 a YEAR? No wonder they just lost their entire dev team. That'd be a
week's pay in the US for an experienced developer.

------
meric
I would suggest they start a kickstarter for donations for the time they've
already spent working on KSP at a 97% below market wage.

------
JoeDaDude
Sad and unfortunate, but I expect KSP has left an influential mark on space
related games for years to come. For example, see the orbital mechanics
segment of Children of a Dead Earth [1]. [1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiIh4Xw2bnQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiIh4Xw2bnQ)

------
hoodoof
I would have thought some wealthy game company would want to buy the company
behind a game this popular.

------
jacquesm
Is there a way to donate directly to these guys? They've done some pretty good
work and it would be a nice gesture to say thanks by directly improving their
conditions and to bypass their employer.

------
abricot
This is how spiritual successors are made.

------
vintermann
That's OK, but surely there's an easy way to write a more informative
headline?

------
Multiplayer
quick scan - not sure what is happening here. My 10 year old LOVES this game.
He watches you tubers play this for HOURS AND HOURS. this confuses me.

I think it's pretty cool.

There. :)

~~~
always_good
^ I hope I never become this HN Dad trope.

------
SilasX
Could you make the title more informative? And can someone give the background
on Kerbal and why this is significant?

~~~
ljk
[http://www.develop-online.net/news/squad-devs-blast-
kerbal-s...](http://www.develop-online.net/news/squad-devs-blast-kerbal-space-
program-studio-for-high-crunch-and-low-pay/0220059)

------
brokentone
Can we change the headline to something less clickbaity? "Kerbal Space
Program: There's no easy way to say this" etc...

~~~
jewbacca
Good news! A moderator edited the title to drop the _" Kerbal Space Program:"_

Now it's _just_ _" There's no easy way to say this"_

Request granted, eh?

~~~
jcrites
Dang and other HN staff have said before that they like making readers have to
work a bit for the information, and not just be spoonfed in the headlines. I
understand it to be about fostering curiosity and wonder. I assume it's also
about discouraging people from dismissing an article based on headline alone.
("Kerbal Space Program? I don't know what that is and don't care about it").
Really great HN articles are often an unexpected discovery on a topic I didn't
expect to be as interesting as it was.

Dan could probably explain better than I. I don't have any information about
whether this title was changed or why, but the current title strikes me as
lining up with that approach. See also "I'm choosing euthanasia etd 1pm. I
have no last words."

~~~
imron
The problem in this case is the link went to reddit.com.

I first thought this was some announcement reddit was making. I don't mind
working for the information, but I don't like misleading information.

~~~
dang
That's a fair point. But links from reddit.com appear here all the time and
nearly always point to Reddit threads.

------
EJTH
I am actually surprised, I always held high thoughts of Squad.

