
A Statement About Mahbod’s Annotations on Elliot Rodger’s Manifesto - ovechtrick
http://news.rapgenius.com/Lemon-a-statement-about-mahbods-annotations-on-elliot-rodgers-manifesto-annotated
======
tptacek
I can appreciate RG's leadership having the self-awareness to see the need to
make an Adult Decision in this case, but I think it's probably a mistake for
them to continue hosting the Rodgers diary.

Contrary to Moghadam's comments, the diary is not particularly well-written.
It's long, repetitive, weirdly detailed (the author recounts meals eaten years
ago), and studded with evidence of psychopathy.

RG's style of annotation works extremely well for some kinds of writing ---
song lyrics, The Great Gatsby, TS Eliot poems. What I think those things have
in common is that they're hospitable to "riffing" and cross-linking; for
instance, the lyrics to the ICP song where they come out of the closet as
religious are totally incongruous until RG annotations inform you that they're
reprised lyrics from previous ICP songs.

But riffing on Rodgers diary doesn't serve the same purpose, at least so close
to the event. It is instead a minefield; almost anything you can say risks
diminishing the tragedy, or misapprehending how the mind of a deeply mentally
ill person functions, or, god help us, using the output of that mind as a
platform on which to build suggestions on changing our culture.

There may be some point at which RG annotations will add value to this
terribly sad artifact of Elliot Rodgers, but it probably won't be in 2014.

~~~
riggins
_the diary is not particularly well-written_

depends on your standards. He's not a professional author but I think he's
probably better than your average college grad.

 _studded with evidence of psychopathy_

genuinely interested. could you point to some of these. I've been skimming it
and haven't really seen that.

in fact, this struck me as empathetic

 _James’s mother, Kim Ellis, had just passed away from breast cancer. I cried
for a bit. Kim was a very kind-hearted person, and the mother of my best
friend. She had been suffering from breast cancer for several years, but I
never thought she would die from it. I immediately thought of how James must
be feeling. He just lost his own mother!Annotate It made me think of how
horrible I would feel if the same thing happened to my own mother, just the
thought alone filled me with pain._

~~~
tptacek
Even if we stipulate that every paragraph in the diary should be taken at face
value, psychopathy is not defined simply as the absence of empathy.

~~~
fleitz
It's actually not really defined at all in terms of an actual medical illness.
It's mostly an invention of the criminal justice system.

Sociopathy/Psycopathy is about as real as Drapetomania or hysteria. It's the
modern day blasphemy, if you question the state or authority you are 'anti-
social'

~~~
gamblor956
Psycopathy is a defined condition in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of
Mental Disorders, which is published by the American Psychiatric Association.
The criminal justice system had nothing to do with the creation of the term.

But you're right--it's not an "actual medical illness." Mental conditions are
"disorders", not "medical illnesses" since they are chronic/permanent
conditions.

~~~
fleitz
Really? Can you point me to where in the DSM it defines 'psychopathy', if you
find an edition that old you may want to look up another disorder that stems
from criminology commonly referred to as 'homosexuality', ironically
homosexuality used to be part of 'sociopathy' which was closely related to
'psychopathy'.

~~~
gamblor956
You need the DSM V, the newest edition. In prior editions, psychopathy was not
distinguished from sociopathy. I imagine that you could find it by looking
through the index, however I do not have a copy of the DSM V.

I'm not sure why you bring up the characterization of homosexuality in older,
long-since discarded versions of the DSM. The DSM is merely a _reflection_ of
the current state of consensus regarding psychological diagnoses. It's not an
authoritative guide. As consensus changes, so does the DSM.

------
JumpCrisscross
Context: [http://gawker.com/rap-genius-co-founders-creepy-comments-
on-...](http://gawker.com/rap-genius-co-founders-creepy-comments-on-elliot-
rodger-1581469310)

Mahbod compliments several of Rodger's sentences as "artful" and/or
"beautifully written". That is okay, if ill-timed. One can make a stylistic
statement about _Mein Kampf_ without endorsing its message.

He also, however, speculates that Rodger's "sister is smokin' hot." That is
violently inappropriate, particularly given the misogynistic nature of
Elliot's crimes.

~~~
Argorak
There was, by the way, a german artist
([http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdar_Somuncu](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdar_Somuncu))
who commented that actually reading Mein Kampf exposes it as a very bad and
simple book and no one should be surprised of Hitlers actions later after
reading. Also, one of his point is that it is terrible in style and mostly
rambling.

He also went on a tour and actually read the book on > 1000 occasions and won
multiple prices.

Now, imagine Serdar doing that in 1946. He would - for good reasons - be
ostracized.

Mahbod, even if he were "only" commenting on stylistic things, shows that he
is lacking something very important: tact and empathy. This is not a
triviality and as such not "okay". He also didn't frame the comment in any way
(e.g. "I am surprised to see such an artfully...").

He should have seen that coming. If he hadn't, he shouldn't be leading any
community.

------
nightpool
Personally, I think this is a long time coming. Like, Tom, I have nothing but
respect for Maboo, but I think many, many people have raised the point that
his, for lack of a better word, "antics" are holding the site back. I know a
lot of people in the HN community have been sharply critical of him, and for
good reason. Maybe that's the main driver here, and Maboo's absolutely
inappropriate response is the catalyst.

~~~
billmalarky
I don't know much about RG's history, but I wonder if his antics are partly
why the site was so successful initially? From the little I've seen of RG over
the years it seems like they rely heavily on gimmicks and antics as a
promotional tool (I guess that's sort of the MO for the music industry
though).

~~~
nightpool
I absolutely believe the site couldn't have gotten where it was today without
Mahbod at its head. But I think that the way forward is, regrettably, without
him for a while. I fully believe he can come back from this more mature and
focused. But I think its going to require a bit of soul-searching.

~~~
billmalarky
I'm sure he will land on his feet quite well with his connections (and equity
no doubt). Everybody goofs and the permanent and public nature of the internet
can be very unforgiving. I wish him nothing but the best in the future with
his health and career.

------
minimaxir
Mahbod has been fired (i.e. not "resigned") due to these comments.

[http://recode.net/2014/05/26/rap-genius-co-founder-
moghadam-...](http://recode.net/2014/05/26/rap-genius-co-founder-moghadam-
fired/)

~~~
nightpool
That's literally what the OP says, from a primary source.

------
darkrabbi
Apparently this guy had a brain tumor and this wasn't the first time he's
publicly embarrassed the company. He tweeted from the RapGenius account
"WARREN BUFFETT CAN SUCK MY DICK".

[http://www.fastcompany.com/3021564/most-creative-
people/how-...](http://www.fastcompany.com/3021564/most-creative-people/how-a-
brain-tumor-made-the-cofounder-of-rap-genius-rethink-business)

[http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2013/02/22/rap_genius_wa...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2013/02/22/rap_genius_warren_buffett_feud_why_does_mahbod_moghadam_hate_the_wizard.html)

~~~
minimaxir
The brain tumor was removed...and the public behavior was unchanged.

[http://valleywag.gawker.com/rap-genius-frontman-blames-
brain...](http://valleywag.gawker.com/rap-genius-frontman-blames-brain-tumor-
for-asshole-beha-1450872105)

~~~
DoubleMalt
Sad but the brain tumour could still be the reason for his behaviour.

We don't know nearly enough about the brain to argue that the removal must
restore the previous personality.

~~~
dbloom
Behavior like that is not acceptable for someone in a position of authority at
a company no matter what the context. (It's not clear what Moghadam's specific
role at Rap Genius was, but he did have a seat on the board of directors)

It's the same reason that we shouldn't let blind people fly commercial
airliners. Flying requires vision. Running a company requires good judgement.

~~~
coldtea
> _Behavior like that is not acceptable for someone in a position of authority
> at a company no matter what the context._

Says who? It's not like the company is Disney. For some companies such antics
are par for the course (e.g a gangsta rap record company).

~~~
dbloom
Things that are "par for the course" aren't necessarily acceptable, as we all
know.

~~~
coldtea
Well, you have to define it then.

"Unaccetable" for running a company with profit, or "unaccptable" for your
moral code? Because the former sure ain't the case.

------
rl3
Obviously Mahbod's latest annotations were inappropriate. Based on his past
behavior, these recent antics should not come as much of a surprise.

As an aside, it has always amazed me how many people over the years have
failed to realize Rap Genius' gimmick is just that, a gimmick. It's their
attempt at using an admittedly off-color flavor of comedy to build their
brand. Said brand is heavily rooted in rap, which is one of the most
politically incorrect and offensive mediums of pop culture in existence today.

It stands to reason that when the Rap Genius founders are _in character_ ,
their behavior should not be taken literally as a reflection of who they
really are.

A good example of this is when they were featured on stage at TechCrunch
Disrupt 2013:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5773556](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5773556)

Most people simply took them literally, became offended, and jumped on the
revulsion bandwagon. Others understood that the RG guys were essentially
mocking the startup scene and the rap scene at the same time, in effect making
fun of themselves.

\---

In Mahbod's case specifically, it seemed like he was aiming for humor that
went right up to the line but didn't cross it. Unfortunately, comedy is a hit-
or-miss endeavor and some of the misses were bound to cross that line. Add to
that his medical issues potentially adversely affecting his judgement, and
it's no wonder.

Was what he said inappropriate? Absolutely.

Should he have been fired for it? Debatable.

Should we assume he's a terrible human being (as some other comments have
implied)? Certainly not.

------
coldtea
> _but went beyond that into gleeful insensitivity and misogyny. All of which
> is contrary to everything we’re trying to accomplish at Rap Genius._

Yeah, because otherwise most rap is all about sensitivity and feminism. I
mean, they'd never embrace Ice Cube's records there, right?

I just see corporate drones fearing for their dollars because of the backslash
against this guy's annotations.

The noble thing to do would have been to stand behind their colleague. I'd
take a "misogynist" over backstabbing people throwing their friends to the
lions. At least a misogynist could either be joking or made to change his mind
about women. But their actions are all for personal interests and their bottom
line.

~~~
adventured
You're not going to find very many people in tech that are going to get within
a million miles of seriously discussing that Rap Genius is filled with
bigoted, racist, misogynist content.

The political correct world today is strictly about inflicting damage upon
populist targets, while not targeting other bigots that don't qualify for the
agenda. It's a deranged movement of convenient targets.

------
cheetos
Who are RapGenius' investors? Who is bankrolling these people?

~~~
minimaxir
Andreessen Horowitz, to the tune of $15M. Rap Genius was also a part of YC
S11.

[http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/03/andreessen-horowitz-
iinvest...](http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/03/andreessen-horowitz-
iinvests-15-million-in-rap-genius/)

[http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/rap-
genius](http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/rap-genius)

~~~
Asparagirl
The same people who bankroll(ed) GitHub. This is my shocked face.

~~~
tptacek
That is a tired, cheap, superficial point that is beneath this site. If you
want to build a case against valley startup culture --- and there sure are
cases to be made --- try to do it without creating a caricature of everyone
else who has concerns as well.

~~~
Asparagirl
"Not all VC's."

~~~
tptacek
Now you're making a joke out of "not all men". Are you sure you're helping?

~~~
ahelwer
Hmmm? "Not all men" _is_ usually presented as a joke. For example, [0].
Similar riffs can be found involving, for example, the Kool-Aid Man.

As an aside, your comment is very patronizing.

[0] [http://i.imgur.com/ZS87l6M.png](http://i.imgur.com/ZS87l6M.png)

------
arfliw
Sounds like somebody wanted to get rid of a co-founder and found a great
opportunity to do it.

------
angersock
I wish they had they shown the annotations that caused the firing. The
Valleywag link elsewhere has one screenshot, but other than being in poor
taste I'm not sure why this rates a firing/step down.

~~~
minimaxir
It's about context: the annotations were glorifying a manifesto that was the
prelude to _mass murder_.

~~~
angersock
So, some parts clearly were, right, complimenting the writing style and
whatnot (which, honestly, wasn't great, but whatever)?

That comment about his sister I viewed more as teasing/disparaging the author
--your mileage may vary.

Reading a bit more about the dude from Rapgenius, though, he seems like kind
of a gangsta-wannabe tool.

------
onewaystreet
If it was just the annotations I'd be surprised, but this is just another
incident by Mahbod that has caused RapGenius bad press. It was the last straw.

------
gordonguthrie
But they are still turning violence against women into page views.

~~~
biaxident
What's the difference between this and any news outlet?

~~~
dmix
Nobody loves glorifying a murderous rampage quite like CNN et al.

