
Linux Sucks 2020 - zerof1l
https://lbry.tv/@Lunduke:e/LinuxSucks2020:b
======
azangru
Guys, looking through the comments, I am afraid you are being way too serious.
Bryan Lunduke has been giving Linux Sucks talks at LinuxFest NorthWest for
many years; they are intended as humorous and good fun.

~~~
itvision
Didn't he promise a few years ago that he'd stop releasing this video?

~~~
kees99
He'll probably stop once we had a year of Linux on desktop.

------
square_usual
For others like me who were wondering what the site hosting this video is,
it's apparently a peer-to-peer file host with some blockchain thrown in to
make it a marketplace. You can read their "About" page here:
[https://lbry.com/what](https://lbry.com/what)

(The about page was frustratingly hard to get to, I had to navigate through
four pages before I got there.)

~~~
syradar
If you scroll down to the bottom of "modern" web sites the about link is in
the footer.

~~~
shim__
Only if it's a good one, the bad ones will just load more content before
you're able to click anything in the footer

------
lerax
Brian makes me laugh everytime. Although the humorous critics that he do,
almost point he raises there is an underlying truth on it. Linux Sucks not
entirely, but some parts sucks so hard. I use Linux daily for almost ten
years, and oh hell, it's pretty much better than Windows, but there is no way
to deny the problems on it.

But Linux is getting better! <3

~~~
gridlockd
I think Linux is getting worse, but Windows and Mac OS are getting worse
faster, so it feels like progress.

~~~
lerax
That is sad and wish it could be a joke. But there are days I think the
same... today I cannot not even run zsnes without problems on most of distros
(Arch/Ubuntu/Etc). Linux backward compatibility it's so terrible.

~~~
weare138
But this isn't just a Linux problem though. Backwards compatibility sucks on
Windows and MacOS too. At least Windows _tries_ to give you some janky
backwards compatibility options, with questionable results. MacOS just
deprecates API's, drops support for older versions of MacOS and tells their
users to go buy new stuff.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
> But this isn't just a Linux problem though. Backwards compatibility sucks on
> Windows and MacOS too.

It sucks a hell of a lot less than Linux's backwards compatibility. Hell,
Linux has better compatibility _with Windows software_ than it does its own
older software!

~~~
weare138
I've administered Windows networks. Windows backwards compatibility sucks and
the fact most Windows legacy software runs better under Wine on a different OS
is a testament to that. Almost none of the current OS's are good at backwards
compatibility. It's not just a Linux problem. Hell Apple doesn't even try.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
Yeah, Windows backwards compatibility has been getting worse, but consider the
following:

You are given a binary for a GUI application, compiled in 2001. You drop the
binary on your system and run it. If it is a Windows application, it has a
much better chance of working fine on both Windows _and Linux_ than it does on
Linux alone if it is a Linux application!

~~~
michaelmrose
What about if you have the code?

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
Then you still have to get the development environment right, a task so simple
it totally isn't a popular usecase for containers (/s), and fix any
incompatibilities in the APIs since 2001 and now.

In other words: it's at least as big a pain in the ass as getting the old
binary working.

------
2OEH8eoCRo0
This is the first Linux Sucks that I have seen and although it's humorous it
doesn't seem like satire. The issues he humorously points out are real issues
with the Linux desktop today.

I've been saying for a long time that one of the beauties of Linux is that
anyone and everyone can do their own thing but that can also be a weakness.
You have thousands of incredible talented developers doing their own thing. If
you piss off some of the talent on your own projects they'll leave and do
their own thing. That's beautiful in a way but it does weaken the Linux
desktop as a whole.

A benevolent dictator / vision is counterintuitive to the OSS spirit but it's
priceless IMO.

~~~
sergeykish
That's scary idea.

As a Linux user I am a refugee from Windows. Expat now. They have dictators
there, they've got resources, they switch development tools one after another.
But somehow they failed. I knew nothing else but I could not stand that
anymore.

So I switched and found my promised land, my distribution, my community. That
was 12 years ago. I believe each distribution, each application starts from
someone with vision. People flock if they like it. Top down approach usually
harms - pulse audio and systemd community split still unresolved.

> my view of history says that mistakes made by a leader (or made in a
> leader's name) are amplified by the numbers who follow without question.

Frank Herbert on Dune

------
tinnet
As much as i like lunduke usually, i find it a bit unreflected to just say "we
are stupid for banning our founders" without acknowledging anything they might
have done wrong. I do agree that the pitchforks approach to public
disagreements should not be our (or anybodies) default. But "leave our
founders alone" is not a policy I'd personally subscribe too either.

Also vaguely poking fun at therapy as if it was a punishment for something is
just plain immature.

------
hs86
One of his main complaints is "People who promote Linux, don't run Linux" and
he specifically focuses on those who hold Linux-related talks at conferences
on devices that don't run Linux on the desktop.

Can you look at
[https://www.linuxfoundation.org/membership/members/](https://www.linuxfoundation.org/membership/members/)
and easily point out those companies, that have a crucial business stake on
Linux on the desktop? I can't.

Most people, who are paid to work on Linux and its surrounding ecosystem, are
working for companies that are interested on Linux on servers / the cloud and
I don't think that it is fair to criticize them for not joining the idealistic
movement of bringing Linux onto more desktops.

~~~
kerny
When you see majority of consultants from the biggest Linux company (that also
focuses on desktop Linux) using Macs for their work, you know that Linux on
desktops won't happen anytime soon.

------
Avamander
In my opinion, this list is much much better:
[https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.t...](https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html)

~~~
ArchD
What a dose of reality for anyone yearning for Linux desktop to succeed. I use
Linux at work and at home because of the configurability and security and
because our servers run Linux but I absolutely do not enjoy tinkering around
when things don't work. Although I can usually figure out a way or workaround,
it's such a waste of time and life is short.

I wouldn't mind paying as much for a Linux distro that just works as I would
for Windows 10, or even double. But one can only dream. I've filed and
commented on quite a few bugs only to have them ignored. The paid support for
Ubuntu has a minimal order size of 10, so it's not really an option especially
since I don't know how well it works. I wonder how big the market is for a
paid Linux distro that just works.

Given the general user-unfriendliness of Linux desktop, I can see why so many
people use Macbooks who work on Linux. Maybe the servers they work on run
Linux. Can't really call the individuals 'dumb' though, like what the video
does. At most the Linux 'organization' on the whole comprising these
individuals, if there's such a thing, is 'dumb'.

~~~
Avamander
> I wouldn't mind paying as much for a Linux distro that just works as I would
> for Windows 10, or even double. But one can only dream.

Well, noone would stop us from donating that money. I'd personally like a
Patreon-like system, if people donate enough they'll get better service, they
reach some threshold, someone could be hired. Though it probably has a lot of
nuances and would take a few years minimum to have a somewhat working system.

I'd really like to see an experiment like that.

------
tux3
About the systemd logo, the weird rewind symbol in brackets, I think it's
meant to be the [ OK] that linux (used to) print on boot for every line.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong!

~~~
floo
Exactly: [https://brand.systemd.io/](https://brand.systemd.io/)

Baffling how he didn't manage to find that on google.

------
grillorafael
Can you all please listen the thing fully before complaining ?

~~~
nix23
No thanks, its getting old, also not fun anymore, every year the same blabla,
wanna 'waste' your time? At least do it with that :)

[https://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf](https://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf)

~~~
rrmm
Unix haters handbook is fun stuff. If you're into unix, it deserves a read.

~~~
nix23
YES, absolutely!

------
maxfromua
"Arch users are vegans of the Linux world" \- excellent comparison :)

------
fbn79
I think was Churchill that said "Linux is the worst form of operating system,
except for all the others."

~~~
gridlockd
...in the alternative history timeline where Churchill was the communist and
Stalin the tory.

~~~
hackeraccount
Churchill as he was would fit right into Linux. It's a combination of love of
the old, tried and true with desperate experimentation that would appeal to
his nature.

Stalin? Victory at any cost with no thought to the means to reach that end?
Hurd? Just saying.

------
LockAndLol
Linux devs running Macs is definitely a thing. There are so many pro
opensource people running Macs and it just boggles my mind.

Just why?

------
MaxBarraclough
I'm unable to reply to 29athrowaway so I'll post this at the top level:

Regarding backward compatibility (discussed around 32:00 in the video), do
solutions like AppImage and Flatpak work for the examples he shows (the three
proprietary games that were ported to Linux)?

------
TheSpiceIsLife
Everything sucks, 2020 edition:

If you use any complex system enough, whether that’s hardware based, software
based, or people based, you’ll eventually get come up against all the pain-
points.

Especially if you’re tired and / or under time constraints.

~~~
MaxBarraclough
Sure, nothing is perfect. So what? That doesn't mean his points are invalid.

It's clear the guy isn't just some clueless Linux-hater.

------
floriol
I kind of like this guy, as in he is funny. But seeing the previous linux
sucks videos as well, I must say that he most definitely don't have a too deep
knowledge of linux - and it is kind of mean to call Linux people dumb who
advocate for flatpak over appimage, especially that he don't really understand
the problem at hand. (though imo nix is the only one solving the problem
properly)

------
itvision
Linux is not winning on mobile in any shape or form. All mobile vendors use a
highly-customized Linux kernel which has nothing to do with mainline and aside
from the kernel, there's not much to write home about. So, maybe Bryan could
have been a little bit more honest from the get go.

~~~
zozbot234
> Linux is not winning on mobile in any shape or form. All mobile vendors use
> a highly-customized Linux kernel which has nothing to do with mainline

That's not a "Linux on mobile" problem; it's a "Linux on anything embedded"
problem, and steps are being taken to address it. You can run a close-to-
mainline kernel already on some devices, it's just not the default. And work
is ongoing to also port common non-mobile Linux userland setups to mobile, so
that the same stack will eventually be useful for both. A lot of non-trivial
work is involved.

~~~
itvision
This will always be hamstrung by the lack of stable APIs - the issue which
Google is so fed up with, they are in a process of writing their own
microkernel, zircon.

You might have noticed that Android phones are supported at most for three
years - that's because HW vendors refuse to maintain their drivers
compatibility with lots of different kernel versions - it's expensive and
takes a lot of work.

Once you have stable kernel APIs - you can write a driver once and forget
about it for eternity.

~~~
zozbot234
Not a problem if the drivers are written to be easy to forward port. But
that's not the approach that embedded BSP's generally take.

~~~
itvision
Again you offer people to work/invest more just to comply with Linux for very
dubious benefits if any. This is not how businesses operate.

------
Avamander
I already disagree with the first reason. Poor backwards compatibility is a
good thing, it does not let tech debt to accumulate too much.

AppImage and containers are just for hiding that tech debt.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
> Poor backwards compatibility is a good thing

I'm going to try and phrase this as nicely as I can: I fervently disagree and
sincerely hope your opinion is shared only by the smallest minority possible.

The point of computers is to be a tool for people to make their lives better.
Being able to run software is better than not being able to run it. The more
things a computer can do, the better.

Also, AppImage is great.

~~~
Avamander
> Being able to run software is better than not being able to run it. The more
> things a computer can do, the better.

The more bugs you can encounter while using a piece of software is not a good
thing. Security is increasingly important, running a lot of unmaintained
software is a terrible thing for security. UI inconsistencies across software
are not a good thing.

I __dread __the day I will encounter the Linux-equivalent of MS-DOS filenames
not being allowed. I hope all such software dies before.

The Windows approach has a lot of downsides you probably don't notice if
you're accustomed to using Windows.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
> The more bugs you can encounter while using a piece of software is not a
> good thing.

Then don't run any software, that's cleary the best solution to avoiding
software bugs if you don't actually care about getting anything done.

> Security is increasingly important, running a lot of unmaintained software
> is a terrible thing for security.

I disagree. Even if a thing is known to be vulnerable, there are ways to
mitigate it. Besides, evergreen software just provides more opportunities for
bugs as things are constantly reworked and added.

> The Windows approach has a lot of downsides you probably don't notice if
> you're accustomed to using Windows.

I notice them, they just cause a lot less pain than not being able to use the
software I want because it hasn't been curated by a third party for whatever
particular distro I'm using.

~~~
Avamander
> Then don't run any software, that's cleary the best solution to avoiding
> software bugs if you don't actually care about getting anything done.

Or that everyone should run maintained software? I don't know why you're
making it so black and white.

> I notice them, they just cause a lot less pain than not being able to use
> the software I want because it hasn't been curated by a third party for
> whatever particular distro I'm using.

I didn't find them any less painful than software not working. I've never been
so angry about a computer than when using some unmaintained Windows' software.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
> Or that everyone should run maintained software? I don't know why you're
> making it so black and white.

Because sometimes the software you want to run isn't maintained anymore and
all the alternatives are worse for your use case and there's nothing you can
do about it. That's just how it is.

> I didn't find them any less painful than software not working. I've never
> been so angry about a computer than when using some unmaintained Windows'
> software.

Please explain how "software works with some issues" is somehow _more painful_
than "software doesn't work at all".

~~~
Avamander
> Please explain how "software works with some issues" is somehow more painful
> than "software doesn't work at all".

One is frustrating for a second, it just doesn't work, second is frustrating
for a longer period of time. The total frustration is larger with the latter.

There usually is a better solution than buggy software, at least with consumer
stuff. If someone writes a shitty GPU driver, it's probably a better idea to
return the GPU than to fiddle it working. At least that's what I think, based
on my experience.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
> One is frustrating for a second, it just doesn't work, second is frustrating
> for a longer period of time. The total frustration is larger with the
> latter.

One could say that the former is frustrating for _infinity_ because it never
works.

> There usually is a better solution than buggy software, at least with
> consumer stuff. If someone writes a shitty GPU driver, it's probably a
> better idea to return the GPU than to fiddle it working. At least that's
> what I think, based on my experience.

Usually, sometimes, maybe. Other times the old software either worked better
for your use case or is literally the only option. That's my experience.

------
mattrick
In regards to search interest, I have a feeling that specific distributions
(specifically "Ubuntu") have replaced the use of "Linux" in Google searches.

------
talkingtab
Click bait headline. Why is this kind of sensationalist title allowed on HN?

edit: I don't object to the content, but the headline.

~~~
chris_wot
No, no it's not. That is literally the talk he has done for many, many years.

~~~
talkingtab
I understand the video is worthwhile. What I object to is the title on the
post. "The linux sucks website has a good video" would be a great title, for
example. As it stands, it panders to those of us who like linux and those of
us who don't like linux. The title appeals to the worst in us.

To be clear I do not object to the content, but I find the title to be
divisive click bait.

~~~
chris_wot
That’s the name of the talk. The humerous talk.

------
sergeykish
TLDR Linux sucks because people do not care much about OS anymore [0], default
setup does not run old games, there is no Steve Jobs like dictator, it is
sponsored.

[0]
[https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=linux,ub...](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=linux,ubuntu,android,ios,windows)

\-----

From my perspective these are reason Linux rocks

1\. Yay! With web I do not care as much about software, I am free to use
Linux.

2\. Yay! Even for running old apps on Linux there is solution.

3\. Yay! I am not a serf, I can move to other distros. And there are a lot of
them.

4\. Yay! It would be impossible to have such hardware support without sponsors
and hired developers. You've done a great job, thank you.

There are a lot of Linux users - some hate Microsoft with passion, some curse
Poettering, some crave world domination - you've got a place too!

There is so much _casual_ media attention now:

* Linux Gaming FINALLY Doesn't SUCK! Sep 22, 2018 (2 000 000 views) [1]

* Microsoft Should be VERY Afraid - Noob's Guide to Linux Gaming, Apr 9, 2019 (2 000 000 views) [2]

Steam games just work thanks to
[https://www.protondb.com/](https://www.protondb.com/) (wine basically).

I was amazed that MX Linux intro has 120 000 views [3]

And finally, there was one technical question. Linux Filesystem Hierarchy
Standard (FHS) is developers setup - evergreen /include, /lib. I can recompile
all installed packages. I've compiled latest Firefox on Linux. I've compiled
Firefox on Windows, it is quite different experience. I've compiled Firefox
3.6 on Linux a month ago, that's different experience too - patching source,
requires old pango version. This setup suits me.

Would it be interesting to have make dependencies as they were in Firefox 3.6
days? Absolutely. Does it drug Linux back? No, this case is minor. Same with
old binaries. Anyone who cares enough can find or create such distro.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWJUphbYnpg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWJUphbYnpg)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co6FePZoNgE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co6FePZoNgE)

[3]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XVHA4l4Zrc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XVHA4l4Zrc)

~~~
tsar9x
> 1\. Yay! With web I do not care as much about software, I am free to use
> Linux.

This. Web and electron apps is the greatest thing that happened to "linux
desktop". I know that they sucks and are slow, but without it I would not be
able to use linux for work.

~~~
0thgen
^ very much agree; plus, given that the electron API is very straightforward:
the electron devs can fix the underlying memory and speed issues in the
underlying code without needing to demand much change from app builders

------
elpescado
Is there a version for literate people?

~~~
cecja
It's a yearly skit he does in front of a live audience and because of covid he
did it in a video. In written form you might actually think he is serious.

------
throwaway888abc
Why not help make it better by sending some pull requests or patches ? One and
half hour long rant. Not exactly hacker mindset.

~~~
input_sh
It's a yearly thing of his that he spends like half an hour complaining about
desktop experience and then twists it around and basically uses the same
arguments to say that it's awesome.

Simplified example: way too many desktop environments, why do we need so many
half-arsed ones?

Half an hour later: woo, we can choose which desktop experience fits our needs
the best, who else can do that?

I've followed it for like two or three years and then got tired of the format.

~~~
imtringued
I've seen a bunch of videos on Youtube where a Linux user is basically
analyzing problems in the UI of common desktop environments for Linux and
compares them to how the UX is on other OSs. Not sure if those youtubers are
actually developers working on the patches because they also report when
something they complained about gets fixed.

~~~
swiley
I’ve never quite understood the “Linux DEs and GUIs are inconsistent”
complaint. I wouldn’t want everything to be GTK because that’s IMO not a great
GUI toolkit.

~~~
Normal_gaussian
I use a pretty default i3wm/i3bar/dmenu setup as my 'de'. The best things
about it is its _not_ like the other GUIs.

It has no discoverability, and its small and "hard" to see. Which is great,
because I know it backwards and would like to look at other things.

I don't know Krita, and it requires a lot of focus. Boy am I glad its not like
my de.

------
29athrowaway
This video is sad to watch and could not wait for it to actually end.

1) Low popularity does not mean something sucks. Listen to the global top 10
playlist on Spotify and you will know what I am talking about: the worst,
least creative music ever made happens to be the most popular and the greatest
works of music in the history of humanity are much less popular.

2) There are many solutions for backwards compatibility, some of them are
listed in this video (AppImage, Flatpak) and other ways of making software
more self-contained. Now... WINE can sometimes be more backwards compatible
than Windows.

3) "Linux foundation executive director presents from a Mac". Well, this has
been observed in Microsoft talks too. In fact, there's one talk where the
presenter cannot get Internet Explorer to do what he wants so he takes a
moment to install Chrome.

4) "Linux people are dumb"... Are they? I would not say so.

~~~
Icyphox
I'm smhing so hard right now.

