
Twitch implements YouTube-like system for blocking copyrighted audio - pauljonas
http://www.polygon.com/2014/8/6/5976565/twitch-music-content-id-dmca
======
minimaxir
This has led to the logical conclusion of an _official Twitch broadcast_
getting hit with a copyright audio penalty.

[https://twitter.com/xkeepah/status/497147167803310080](https://twitter.com/xkeepah/status/497147167803310080)

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jdoliner
I'd really like to see Twitch implement a system where streamers could upload
separate audio channels for their videos. That way a single channel could be
muted for infringement without muting the others. You wouldn't have to lose
the audio from the game and player commentary, which is often integral to the
video, just because a copyrighted song was playing in the background. This is
actually a feature that would have some value to me as a user because I often
watch streams where I don't like the music but can't turn it off without
losing the caster's commentary which often times the best part.

This does put an extra burden on casters but maybe the value of degrading
gracefully in the face of copyright complaints will make it worth it.

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bobbo_
The system appears to be blocking copyrighted _in-game_ audio, see [1] and
[2].

[1]
[http://www.twitch.tv/dansgaming/b/550331246](http://www.twitch.tv/dansgaming/b/550331246)
[2]
[http://www.twitch.tv/adam_ak/b/555134005](http://www.twitch.tv/adam_ak/b/555134005)

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eswat
I’m surprised this isn’ making more waves here. If you check out a video from
almost any user profile that primarily plays PC games[1] or is a
speedrunner[2], you’ll find most of their videos muted.

This is not going to end well…

[1]
[http://www.twitch.tv/kaceytron/c/4761968](http://www.twitch.tv/kaceytron/c/4761968)
[2]
[http://www.twitch.tv/iateyourpie/b/552446830](http://www.twitch.tv/iateyourpie/b/552446830)

~~~
jschmitz28
It's a big deal, but not nearly as big as it would be if it affected live
streams as well. Vods are much less popular. The top videos of all time have
around a half million views or less. Top videos this week have around 40000:

[http://www.twitch.tv/directory/videos/all](http://www.twitch.tv/directory/videos/all)
[http://www.twitch.tv/directory/videos/week](http://www.twitch.tv/directory/videos/week)

~~~
Joona
It will affect live streams at some point.

~~~
jschmitz28
Is this speculation or do you have a source? Your comment is stated as a fact
but I haven't seen a statement from Twitch about this.

~~~
fletchowns
It seems like a logical progression of things, probably just a bit more
difficult to implement. I'd guess it's not long til we see it.

~~~
Joona
Yup. From what I've heard, Youtube already has something like that on their
livestreams.

------
jonknee
Fascinating moves by the company. They gain users by looking the other way for
illegal sports broadcasts which made up the majority of watched content at
Justin.tv. Next they pivot to e-sports with Twitch which is a huge success but
also plagued by rampant copyright issues (this is the music, but the actual
broadcast of some games may be illegal). They look the other way again until
they decide to cash out, which means a quick clean up before the billion
dollar pay day.

The lesson to VC backed startups here should be to ignore the laws you don't
want to bother with until the last possible second (and then some more!),
preferably with offer paperwork in your hands. Airbnb has shown that this can
scale.

~~~
Houshalter
Did they actually ignore DMCA requests or violate copyright themselves in any
way? Or are you just upset they didn't implement an automated takedown system
until now?

~~~
jonknee
They testified to Congress that they were doing their best to fight piracy
while at the same time all of the top feeds on Justin.tv were pirated. It was
a joke. DMCA requests were not meant to combat live programming--get one down
and another pops up. In three hours the point is moot.

------
crazypyro
Okay, can the announcement of the Google buyout happen already? If it wasn't
obvious before, it sure is now...

Also, from the blog post:

"Starting today, Twitch will be implementing technology intended to help
broadcasters avoid the storage of videos containing unauthorized third-party
audio. "

We're removing content because we want to help broadcasters, yeaaaaa, okay
buddies!

~~~
radley
A week ago:

[http://venturebeat.com/2014/07/24/googles-1b-purchase-of-
twi...](http://venturebeat.com/2014/07/24/googles-1b-purchase-of-twitch-
confirmed-joins-youtube-for-new-video-empire/)

~~~
notatoad
still not an announcement, just an investor who can't keep his mouth shut.

------
PauloManrique
The system is even flagging someone singing.

heres the youtube ver, unmuted
[http://youtu.be/E3GpMaVdmZo?t=7s](http://youtu.be/E3GpMaVdmZo?t=7s) twitch
archive
[http://www.twitch.tv/iplaywinner/b/555065724](http://www.twitch.tv/iplaywinner/b/555065724)

~~~
iLoch
It's also going to block audio in games like Grand Theft Auto and FIFA which
constantly feature copywritten content (in game menus and "radio stations" in
game). Maybe they'll develop lists of these songs and not block them?

------
baddox
There's no way to know if this has anything to do with the (as far as I know
unconfirmed) rumors of their acquisition by Google, but it's interesting that
in e-sports communities the general response to those rumors was "oh well,
there goes streaming with background music."

~~~
radley
confirmed:

[http://venturebeat.com/2014/07/24/googles-1b-purchase-of-
twi...](http://venturebeat.com/2014/07/24/googles-1b-purchase-of-twitch-
confirmed-joins-youtube-for-new-video-empire/)

~~~
baddox
> confirmed sources familiar with the matter.

> Google and Twitch declined comment.

~~~
radley
arg. thnx =)

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mmanfrin
So if you stream a game and listen to a single 3 minute song, 30 minutes of
your stream will be muted. This is a fantastic means of protecting content
creators!

------
radley
Twitch AMA tomorrow morning (Thu 7/8)

[http://www.reddit.com/r/Twitch/comments/2csuhs/twitchtv_will...](http://www.reddit.com/r/Twitch/comments/2csuhs/twitchtv_will_have_an_ama_thursday_78/)

~~~
ihuman
On a subreddit they have control over. I won't be surprised if they removed
questions that paint them in a negative light.

~~~
onewaystreet
Generally people doing AMAs just ignore the controversial questions. In this
case people want to paint Twitch as the villain but they are just following
the law. I expect them to say that if they didn't do this they/streamers could
get sued.

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djloche
What if Google, instead of blocking the stream, just reserved a portion of the
revenue generated from that video, for the rights holder, equal to but not
greater than the amount needed for traditional over the air licensing?

~~~
bobbo_
Alternatively, could they not just use the system as a response to DMCA
requests? Mute out the offending portion when a rights-holder complains and
leave (probably) the vast majority of videos generating ad revenue, without
large portions of the video being muted pro-actively (and therefore basically
unwatchable).

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wldcordeiro
I'm not surprised they did and at the same time this just makes it obvious
that the way in which copyright for "performances" is done needs to be fixed.

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enneff
Not sure why the comments here are so negative. People make money from Twitch,
and most of them have music playing in the background. You can't just take
someone else's work and use it to improve your own without expecting to
compensate them.

I hope that the policing of mainstream commercial music use will drive content
creators to use music owned by small companies and independents. Twitch should
do an integration with Bandcamp or something.

~~~
darkmighty
Two counterpoints:

1) Often certain music is played simply as a "cultural reference" \-- e.g.
making fun of it, having it in the background shortly for dramatic or comical
effect, and so on. I would think most classify as fair use; however removals
will likely be irrevocable and done with parsimony.

2) Even if the broadcaster would like to give up some of his revenue for
copyright, he won't be able to. It just doesn't make much economic sense for
large brands to issue small licenses, yet it does make sense to go after small
violators since they're allowed to do it _en masse_.

The point is, viewers lose culturally and copyright holders don't actually
gain anything.

~~~
enneff
I don't see what we "lose culturally" by dropping the use of commercial music.
There is a plethora of great, liberally-licensed great music out there.

~~~
darkmighty
Some examples of emblematic music that are often used as specific references:

Chariots of Fire
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYJzcUvS_NU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYJzcUvS_NU)

Wagner's March of the Valkyries
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRU1AJsXN1g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRU1AJsXN1g)

Gonna Fly Now
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyvQKTg4T5o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyvQKTg4T5o)

You can't really replace those.

~~~
enneff
I'll be happy to never hear either the first or third examples ever again. It
shouldn't be a big deal to find public domain performances of the out-of-
copyright Wagner piece.

------
kevingadd
Some interesting bits about this system and how it's implemented:

Blocking is implemented using volume control in the flash player. The flash
player has multiple bugs that currently undo the blocking.

Twitch already has an API used for playing VODs and streams on devices that
don't run Flash, and as a result of volume-control-based muting, muting does
not apply to any of these devices (or software using the API, of which there
is plenty).

Worse still, not only does muting not apply to the API, but ads don't show up
either. So muting will (at least in the short term) drive users to playback
via API in order to avoid it, and coincidentally reduce ad impressions.
Ideally Twitch will address this in the future by muting the actual VODs at
the file level instead of in the player.

The Content ID detection database they're using (from a third party, Audible
Magic) includes many game soundtracks and other licensed pieces of audio that
are used legally by actual games. Twitch calls this out in their announcement,
so they knew it would be happening. As a result, VODs that merely contain
playback of a real game end up muted - one of the examples going around the
web right now is footage of Fallout 3, because FO3's soundtrack contained some
licensed songs from the 50s/60s that are in Audible Magic's database. [3]

Suppressing copyrighted music from your streams is complicated further by the
fact that the database is stated to contain ambient audio and not just music;
many games do not have a separate volume slider for ambient audio, even if
they have one for music. Suppressing that audio may require muting the game
entirely.

Some games also tie licensed music into game-relevant content; Fallout 3 is
one of them - the in-game radio has narration and dialogue from plot-relevant
characters mixed in between the songs. Muting the audio or not using the in-
game radio would actually hinder the experience of playing the game in a
measurable way as a result.

Services like Audible Magic also have a long track record of asserting
incorrect ownership for content. Many indie game developers & musicians were
hit by an erroneous banwave as a result of this technology last year due to a
shady service called TuneCore asserting ownership of music published by their
customers - despite their customers not authorizing this behavior. [1]

Because Content ID takedowns on YouTube (and now Twitch) do not operate
through the legal system or the DMCA hierarchy, there is no legal recourse
available to content creators or rightsholders in this scenario, and the
companies that have deals with YT/Twitch are free to siphon ad money or take
down content whenever and wherever they like. With DMCA takedown notices there
is a counter-notice mechanism, but since these content ID systems are based on
private agreements between companies, no such mechanism exists.

The service twitch uses charges per-request for content identification so this
likely influenced the decision to mute 30-minute blocks instead of at a
smaller level of granularity. At the size of Twitch's content database they
may be paying a significant amount of money to Audible Magic for this service.
[2]

[1] [http://www.vg247.com/2013/12/18/99-of-youtube-gaming-
channel...](http://www.vg247.com/2013/12/18/99-of-youtube-gaming-channels-
will-die-soon-copyright-strike-barrage-discussed/)

[2] [https://www.audiblemagic.com/copyright-compliance-
pricing/](https://www.audiblemagic.com/copyright-compliance-pricing/)

[3]
[http://www.twitch.tv/dansgaming/b/550331246](http://www.twitch.tv/dansgaming/b/550331246)

~~~
cataflam
The erroneous flagging seems to still be going on.

[https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/497168915651637249](https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/497168915651637249)

 _Crypt of the Necrodancer devs saying the music in their game is getting
peoples videos flagged, they have no idea why its on Audiblemagic_

From the musician and right owner himself :

[https://twitter.com/dannyBstyle](https://twitter.com/dannyBstyle)

 _nobody but me has the authority to ask for a takedown of @NecroDancerGame
music on twitch. if you 're getting takedowns please let me know!_

 _I have not asked for any streams of @NecroDancerGame to be taken down. I don
't understand who could have requested they be muted._

 _thanks for the links to the muted @NecroDancerGame VODs. consulting with my
lawyer, I will sort it out and let everyone know ASAP. <3_

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ineedtosleep
Crazy idea: Can't a streamer just setup their own live streaming audio server
(i.e. Shoutcast and Icecast) and tell users to listen to that while watching
their Twitch? This way, their videos can get archived later for on-demand use
and the livestream isn't affected /too/ much.

~~~
fletchowns
I think it would be difficult to keep the audio and video in sync if they were
separate streams. The delay for Twitch streams can be unpredictable.

~~~
baddox
If you could get the time difference to within the duration of an average
song, it wouldn't be so bad. It would be messed up if the streamer tries to
sing along, but that's about it. I think the main reason viewers like streams
with music is just to share in the streamer's tastes and perhaps discover new
music.

~~~
Igglyboo
Another reasons is that music makes it less awkward, most streamers aren't
talking 100% of the time and there will be awkward silences. Also, for me at
least, the addition of music makes it more of a casual viewing experience.
I'll often have a twitch stream on my second monitor while working and it's
not distracting at all.

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Houshalter
Anyone know how this system works? It may be possible to exploit the algorithm
to find small transformations that disrupt it's ability to identify audio.
This has been shown to be possible in some neural net based systems, for
example.

------
ASneakyFox
Why is this bad? They ought to pay for the music like every one else. Twitch
isn't a free radio system.

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paraxisi
Cue the mass exodus to other services that don't attempt to police content
proactively.

~~~
onewaystreet
And if any of those services ever get as big as twitch they will be forced to
as well.

~~~
wldcordeiro
Precisely, the problem isn't Twitch implementing this. It's the copyright
system that forces them to do this.

~~~
superuser2
No, it really isn't. Under the DMCA they are free from liability if they just
sit there and respond to DMCA requests as they come.

Someone could set up a bot to send DMCA requests under the same algorithm, but
they'd be guilty of perjury if they lied.

~~~
onewaystreet
That stops being realistic when you get to the size where you have thousands
of DMCA requests coming in a day.

------
myhf
Wouldn't it be easier for them to just buy an unlimited license for "Darude -
Sandstorm"?

