
New iPad Pro with LiDAR Scanner and trackpad support - Austin_Conlon
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/03/apple-unveils-new-ipad-pro-with-lidar-scanner-and-trackpad-support-in-ipados/
======
ben7799
I already had an iPad Pro + smart keyboard + pencil once... and got rid of it
and switched to a Surface Pro. We still have an old 10" iPad 2 + an older iPad
Mini in the house and they get use for typical iPad consumer stuff.

When I add up this new iPad in the minimum 128GB/Wifi/11" config this one is
about $400 more than I paid for the Surface Pro + KB cover + MS Pen. (Which is
i5/8GB/128GB/Wifi-only)

The Surface has been so much more useful due to it's "real" software ecosystem
and ability to just plug devices & memory cards right into it. 4 years on it
seems like this new iPad Pro is no better except for even slicker hardware +
touchpad.

Not there for me till they fix the software and make it a lot easier to do
real world tasks that require working with files on other pieces of hardware
you have local.

Some of the use cases like traveling and doing photography or video on the
road have just been so much easier with the Surface Pro. Even just doing
things like downloading a spreadsheet from the bank. Maybe you can do that now
but you couldn't when I had my iPad Pro. Safari wouldn't let you download a
file and open it in the app of your choice. So even though Numbers (or Excel)
would have been fine to do finances there was no way to get the files. If the
bank had made it so the app could generate a spreadsheet and then let you
share it with Numbers that would work, but those use cases never got enabled,
and there were so many cases like that.

~~~
vlunkr
This is why I don't understand how there's even a market for the iPad Pro
(outside the Apple superfans). I like iOS, but it seems like if you want to
any real work it's an uphill battle, and for the money there are plenty of
alternatives.

~~~
chrisseaton
> if you want to any real work

Here we go again with this 'real work' nonsense.

What counts as 'real work' to you? A friend of a mine is a barrister and uses
an iPad pro to take and use notes. He's definitely doing 'real work' just fine
on his iPad.

~~~
blihp
It's not nonsense, it's just different use cases. For office productivity
applications, of course the majority of users will be just fine. For many
technical people, 'real' work tends to mean heavy compute and/or I/O workloads
which most laptops don't do well with let alone mobile devices.

~~~
qubex
I am an inveterate and incorrigible _Mathematica_ user, as most of my “real
work” deals with what might be best described in layperson’s terms as
“symbolic math”.

Even though Wolfram has not (yet? hope always dies last!) released a version
of Mathematica for the iPad (meaning, a frontend notebook coupled to an actual
onboard computing kernel) they have released a client for “Wolfram Online”
(often referred to as “ _Cloud Mathematica_ ”) offering. This isn’t _quite_
what I would like, as there’s a significant range of circumstances where I
cannot rely on network access (such as when flying) but for most other
situations it suits the purpose.

Other mathematics-inclined apps allow even greater range of onboard
functionality ( _Pythonista_ , _MathSudio_ spring to mind).

Upshot: one can most definitely do significant amounts of data analysis on an
iPad.

~~~
vtail
I’m in the same boat: Wolfram Language has enlightened me (or you may say,
corrupted me completely), so a prerequisite for any new computing device is
that it can ran Mathematica.

Which is way I had to switch back from OpenBSD (which doesn’t run it) and
Linux (which until today’s update, didn’t have HiDPI support) back to Mac OS.

------
Someone1234
The front facing camera is seriously neglected.

They keep on adding more powerful/fancy cameras to the rear that people likely
under-use in the common case, while the front camera that is commonly used for
work, video conferencing, selfies, etc remains on the wrong edge and is under-
powered. It is almost farcical with the new keyboard setting the top to the
non-camera edge.

The front facing camera should be the premiere camera on the iPad, and should
exist on the top and side, with triple microphone array (top, left, and
right). Scrap two of the rear cameras to offset the cost.

~~~
e_proxus
Just wait until you try the front facing camera on a MacBook (in my case, the
Air from 2019). It's so horrible compared to any recent iDevice from the last
years. I don't understand why they don't improve them to match the mobile
quality at least.

~~~
dijit
This might shed some light as to why:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BLgS7m0W94](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BLgS7m0W94)

tl;dr: phone webcams have DMA, laptop webcams are using USB.

~~~
rsynnott
This seems like a dubious explanation; you can get quite high-quality external
webcams that use USB 2.0.

I'd say a more likely (and harder to fix) explanation is that the phone ones
can be deeper; laptop ones have to be very slim to fit.

~~~
ksec
Exactly. You want thinner bezel, slimmer Screen, and the trade off is simply
the camera. Unfortunately there doesn't seems to be enough interest in it for
Apple to innovate.

~~~
jandrese
They could put a notch into the Macbook screen. /s

~~~
rsynnott
DO NOT GIVE TIM COOK IDEAS.

------
burgerquizz
Apple, please make the ipadOS eco system developer friendly. I'd buy it
instantly. If Visual Studio Code was available there, that'd be amazing.

There is some projects[1] going on but using some non-viable workaround

[1]
[https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/70764](https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/70764)

~~~
Someone1234
This is a device that doesn't support other browser rendering engines or even
toy compilers, long way to go before something like VSCode could be possible,
a product that let's you trivially slipstream in any renderer/script
engine/compiler you want at a single click.

Plus would it really be an "iPad" with you sacrifice the whole security model
to allow debugging?

~~~
acoard
VS Code has incredibly good "remote" debugging setups. [0]

You can install a VS Code "server" on e.g. your Linux developer machine, then
connect to it via your VS Code "client" on your iPad. You get local
intellisense and the like, but actual execution of code is done on your Linux
server.

You can replace Linux server with Windows, or even containers (so you can have
your "server" be a local Linux docker image if you're on Windows but want to
develop locally on Linux, for example).

I realize this is a higher barrier to use, but I could seriously see using it
in this way.

[0] [https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/remote/remote-
overview](https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/remote/remote-overview)

~~~
disqard
I am currently attempting to use an iPad Pro in this fashion (code server
running on a DO droplet)... it is quite difficult and developer-hostile. For
instance, until I upgraded the OS to iPadOS (it was on iOS 13.3), the cursor
keys on my bluetooth keyboard did not move the cursor inside the code editor
pane! Also, if you have _anything_ at all copied to the iPad's clipboard,
pressing the Escape key (say I'm using Vim inside the VSCode "terminal" pane)
will reveal iPadOS's own clipboard popup. Overall, I __strongly __recommend
staying away from this setup for any serious remote VSCode work.

~~~
saagarjha
> the cursor keys on my bluetooth keyboard did not move the cursor inside the
> code editor pane

This is a bug with Monaco, Visual Studio Code’s editor component, which does
not support mobile browsers.

------
Yabood
The Magic Keyboard for iPad Pro will be available for purchase in May for $299
(US) for the 11-inch iPad Pro and $349 (US) for the 12.9-inch iPad Pro

Wow. This must be one hell of a keyboard..

~~~
fmajid
What does Apple have against the Escape key? That's a deal-breaker right
there.

~~~
mstade
What would the escape key do in iPadOS though? There isn't one on the on
screen keyboard, never has been.

~~~
Grustaf
How else are you supposed to use VIM?

~~~
falcolas
Ctrl [

Support outside vim (actually a terminal) is a bit less reliable.

~~~
kstrauser
It's a lot more widespread than I would have expected. It seems to work most
places where I've tried it.

------
talentedcoin
I have tried very hard for the last few years to do Python development on the
iPad Pro with a combination of Termius (to ssh into my home machine) and
Pythonista. They are both great apps but it's not enough -- time and time
again I ran into fussy little roadblocks that were taking too much time to
resolve. I finally got flummoxed enough to buy a refurbished HP Elitebook 820
instead.

Mind you, I work on financial applications so YMMV. I love my Mac -- I wish
the iPad was there, but it's not there yet. Great for watching Netflix though
...

------
GeorgeTirebiter
There is exactly one attribute which will convince me the iPad Pro is a 'real'
computer: when I can develop apps for the iPad on the iPad. Until then...
nice, but ...

~~~
jtth
This is what blows my mind about their decisions regarding software
priorities. Being able to build Macintosh apps on a Macintosh was fundamental
to the survival of the platform. Hell, there isn't even a coherent story about
developing client-side web applications on an iPad, something much simpler—the
interpreter's already there!

~~~
rchaud
A very long time has passed since then. Apple is hardly at risk of having iOS
collapse because of lack of developer support.

------
dade_
I've already ordered one. I sold off the last of my Apple products a few years
ago. Since then, the MacBook Pro has improved, but MacOS was getting so buggy
that I didn't really see he benefit over dealing with Windows (also, I love
WSL). iPhones with lightning connectors _and_ no headphone jack offend me. So
no thanks. Besides, have you tried the Xperia 5?

But man I miss my iPad. My very expensive and high performance toy with the
nearly endless choice of very high quality applications and games.

Android tablet apps are plain awful. There are a few good apps on Windows (6
of them and half haven't been updated in 3+ years) and there are always random
lags and endless strange issues with Tablet mode. Never mind that a Windows
machine often needs to wake up from suspend vs iPad instant on.

~~~
0xff00ffee
> I didn't really see he benefit over dealing with Windows

What possible nightmare bugs could macOS have that would lead you to this
claim? I'm really curious. They'd have to be big ones because I've been
developing on Lin/Win/Mac for 6 years and nothing comes close to the pain of
developing on Windows.

~~~
dade_
The cat versions since Tiger were pretty much flawless upgrades and never had
any issues. Then the mountains came, and upgrades never went as smoothly and
problems would crop up. Display driver issues, Wifi would just disconnect,
strange performance issues (I think caused by CPU throttling to keep the fan
quiet), it was a while back. Then the display developed a bright yellow
vertical line DURING the upgrade to Sierra. So annoying. The Apple store
people said I needed a new motherboard. Nothing helped, downgraded to Mountain
Lion. I don't like the new MacBook Pros that came out since, so I switch to a
Surface. However, High Sierra came out so I pulled out the machine with its
bright yellow line and upgraded. The line was gone.

Honestly, Apple software and machines have way too much magic locked away and
hidden. This was acceptable to me when everything was perfect, but those days
are gone. I check the Apple support forums from time to time. MacBook
keyboards come to mind.

~~~
0xff00ffee
Oh, ok, these are anecdotal bugs and not something systemic and real, like,
say the redesign of the file system or memory managers or the driver system.

I've had 3 macs over a decade and they've all been flawless. My 2013 MBP is
still my trusty workhorse, my Mac Mini handles the living room.

Only issue ever was Catalina when my chinese 32-bit Alfa drivers stopped
working, but I had two OSes worth of warnings. And my new iPhone 7 sometimes
cannot make calls because the phone app crashes and I have to reboot
(bahahahah wtf apple... YOU HAD ONE JOB!!!). SO there's that.

I've got dozens of anecdotal issues with windows though: I still have to sit
and wait 60 seconds to see what is in my recycle bin (or any folder with large
# files) for Explorer while it does a bunch of bloatware internet checks
behind the scenes to tell me things I don't need to know. Or my system
randomly grinding to a halt due to upgrades. Or the spontaneous 100% network
usage associated with services that require me to get a coffee while they
finish (because rebooting will kill an hour). Or the Device Manager that
hasn't changed since Win2000. Oh, and I love the advertisements for games in
my start menu. Or being able to actually stop windows updates (twist: even
dinking with the registry still is undone).

Battle of opinions here, obviously: but the Candy Crush showing up my start
menu really sealed the coffin on Windows being a serious platform.

------
megous
> The LiDAR Scanner measures the distance to surrounding objects up to 5
> meters away, works both indoors and outdoors, and operates at the photon
> level at nano-second speeds.

Light travels 30cm in 1ns. That's not really a very exciting precision at 5m
range. That's like 4bit resolution.

Are there any specs aside from this marketing blabber?

~~~
colinjoy
... but it „operates on the photon level“ - that’s got to be a first for an
optical system /s

~~~
tartrate
It's the best thing to happen to photons since the big bang.

Ok... but they actually said "The biggest thing to happen to the cursor since
point and click." What, being on an iPad?

------
satysin
The new MacBook Air looks really nice as well. Here's hoping we see a new
13/14" MacBook Pro in the next day or two as well. I want to upgrade from my
15" but I don't want this form factor anymore. 14" in a slightly bigger 13"
form factor would be ideal.

~~~
xyst
I loved the form factor of the 2015 MacBooks. It was perfect for college and I
took it everywhere. It only lasted ~2 years before the mobo failed and it
longer booted up. I think there was a known heating issue with these laptops.

~~~
saagarjha
What’s a mobo?

~~~
bluehatbrit
Motherboard, I think.

------
eugeniub
The new Magic Keyboard for iPad Pro 12.9" ($349) is more than the base iPad
($329).

~~~
singularity2001
Tangentially, I was thinking of using an iPad as an ergonomic keyboard (free
tap layout) because the magic keyboard has a layout which is very bad for RSI.

------
gozzoo
What's up with the CPU? The recent iPhone has A13 Bionic and now, half year
latter theier flagship iPad has A12z?!

How do both compare?

~~~
whoisjuan
They actually do that a lot. They usually release A(n)X when there's already
an A(n+1) available.

Usually, the X version (or in this case, the Z version) is the same
architecture as a previous non-letter architecture but with optimized and
improved multi-core performance achieved with new components and likely some
overclocking. They are also likely optimized to handle workloads differently
since they are put in devices that are meant to work differently than a
handheld phone.

The X versions seem to be optimized to take full advantage of the larger
batteries available in the iPads or for non-battery devices like the Apple TV.

I don't think there are X CPUs that were put in iPhones, so far (I could be
wrong, though).

~~~
gozzoo
When the previous duo of iPad Pros was released the current iPhone was using
A12 and respectively the iPads had A12X Bionic. iPad Pro is the most powerfull
device in their mobile line, it's very starange that the are doing a step
backwards with it.

My question was rather how A12z compares to A13. They have already explained
many times how A(n) compares to A(n)X.

~~~
ksec
This. It is always A12, then A12X, A13, then A13X.

But they got A12z this time round.

------
Goosee
Love my 2018 iPad Pro, use it everyday for school work and for personal
things. Hope to see more options for development on the iPad in the near
future (requires Apple to open up developer options).

There are some cool apps that I think you guys would like. They don't have a
lot of marketing behind them.. Carnets (offline Jupyter notebook) [free] and
a-Shell (interactive terminal) [free].

Took some digging, but note that the new trackpad keyboard is compatible with
the 2018 released iPad Pro models. Looks like the keys are bigger, resembling
their laptop keyboard a bit more. I really enjoy typing on my smart folio so I
hope the experience will be similar!

------
rock_artist
The iPad would become Pro only when I'll have the ability to run unsigned
code, get custom apps / sideload without 1year/1week certs limits.

------
King-Aaron
> iPad Pro is faster and more powerful than most Windows PC laptops

This is such a frustrating comparison that Apple continues to make. They
factor in that _most_ Windows PC laptops are very low-spec and low-price. If
you compared performance with similarly priced machines it would likely be a
different story.

But come on, Apple. It's not 2001 anymore. You don't need to keep up with the
'us vs them' mentality.

~~~
greggman3
The late 2019 iPad Pro is faster and more powerful than the late 2019 Macbook
Air. I bought both and tested. It made me wish for an iPad Pro hardware based
Macbook Air but ultimately I sold the iPad Pro 4 weeks later since I never
used it. My workflow is decidedly not tablet oriented.

~~~
eugeniub
Late 2018* iPad Pro. Apple didn’t release an iPad Pro in 2019.

~~~
greggman3
right! Sorry

------
igammarays
I don't think trackpad support adds much value to the "serious" use cases of
the iPad. If my work gets complex enough to require a trackpad, I get on my
Mac. The trackpad looks more like a band-aid solution for those who are
insistent on using the iPad as a serious computer (even though it's not),
because nothing so-far-invented beats the traditional keyboard-mouse-window
paradigm for productivity.

The only "serious" use cases for the iPad, which are actually better on iPad
than on Mac are:

\- Document review and annotation with tools like LiquidText or PDF Expert

\- Sketching and drawing with apps like Paper

\- Data collection and demonstration in the field (showing other people stuff,
and asking them to enter info)

Anything else you "could" technically do on an iPad is just a dumbed-down
version of what we already do better on a Mac. Lots of pretty marketing and
very little productivity - I feel bad for the generation of college kids
raised on this pretty piece of glass while being deprived of the experience of
"real" computing.

~~~
jungturk
What is it about the Mac that makes these doings more efficient?

Is that just a certain comfort about being able to more closely approach the
OS abstractions like file and command?

~~~
djbeadle
I can only speak for myself, I bought an 11" iPad Pro to have something much
lighter and portable than my laptop that I could carry everywhere, write long
form text on, and edit photos.

Importing and editing a single photo is easy, but if I want to work on a whole
batch it becomes a pain trying to manage many files using file system.

So far the best solution I've found is to pay for Adobe cloud storage, import
my photos to the Lightroom app (thus not polluting my camera roll) and let
Adobe sync everything to my desktop where the photos eventually live on an
external hard drive.

Side note: Despite this the actual act of manipulating photos on the iPad are
fantastic. I love being able to shoot an event and then start editing a couple
photos for promotional purposes right then and there. Overall I love my big
expensive tablet.

If other people have developed iPad / iOS photography workflows I'd love to
hear them!

~~~
jungturk
That makes sense. Managing batches doesn't seem like it would be terribly
ergonomic with something like iOS.

------
bcheung
Really wish they would stop hijacking the scrolling on their website. It's
absolutely horrible to navigate and makes it hard to find information. I kept
scrolling and scrolling and finally had enough and just closed the page.

------
BooneJS
I still wish I could run Xcode on it. It’s too nice of a machine to have to
spin up a cloud server to develop on.

One concern: my iPad Pro 1 smart Keyboard died after 2 years.

~~~
mpweiher
Do you develop on your iPad via a cloud server? How?

Are there alternative development environments?

~~~
rhodysurf
I use a digital ocean droplet over mosh with tmux and vim for some things and
that works pretty well but its annoying not having vscode or sublime to use
for sure

~~~
bergie
You could probably get vscode by running code-server on the VPS

~~~
rhodysurf
Yeah im gunna try that soon when I have a little time

------
filleokus
Hard to say without knowing the component cost, but I would really like a non
backfacing camera (or very cheap back camera) option in the future.

I could see myself having a beefy desktop, this iPad with the keyboard, and my
phone. But if you're not into the whole AR-scene, the camera seems redundant
as I always have my phone with me.

But I guess there's not enough people like me to justify that model...

~~~
Flockster
Yes! I'm currently deciding between the new ReMarkable2 and an iPad Pro.
Having a cheaper iPad Pro without these AR/Camera-Stuff as an option would
make this decision easier.

~~~
tachion
There's three of them already: iPad, iPad Air and iPad Mini.

------
luigi23
Any ideas what you could develop with new lidar scanner?

~~~
nemacol
I would like an app that lets me map the dimensions and floor plans of an
indoor space. Without really knowing a ton about lidar or the specific
implementation of it in this device, I imagine that could be done?

The apps that use the camera are all pretty clunky. If I could just walk
around the inside of my house for a while and let it map it out, that would be
nifty.

(put on tin foil hat) Then the iPad can track my movement around my house and
play ads based on which room I am in.

Example - walks into bathroom and I hear "Try new lemon toilet bowl cleaner."

~~~
SwiftyBug
Why on Earth would you want that?

~~~
martythemaniak
I was looking for this right now, actually.

I want to remodel my house. I want to take my device, scan everything, then
put replace parts - new vanity in bathroom, try different paints in different
rooms, new lighting etc.

After each change, I want to put on my VR device and walk around. Finally, I
want to send the changes I choose to a contractor.

~~~
donkeydoug
sorry for the non-context response, but in hopes you see the reply (and missed
the one from the other day), blockbattle.net is currently down. would be great
if it could be back up, not sure of any other way to contact the creators,
will not nag about this again here. if you want someone to take over hosting,
would be totally up for it :-) great game, Thanks.

~~~
martythemaniak
I messaged my buddy to restart the server, but in not really involved anymore.

~~~
donkeydoug
Thank You :-) Would be great if anyone still involved could drop by
/r/blockbattlenet ... would be happy to help with hosting (or if open sourcing
at this point is an option, even better). Thanks again!

------
chadlavi
Let me install macOS on one and I'll buy it in a heartbeat. It's not "pro"
until I can use a terminal, an IDE, desktop apps, etc

~~~
hbosch
There really is no reason at all to not support macOS apps when you've given
the device a keyboard and a trackpad+cursor. In a lot of ways, this form
factor is exactly what I would want my Macbook to be... ultra-portable, touch-
screen with Pen support, more dynamic hinge, and no touch bar.

~~~
thirdsun
> There really is no reason at all to not support macOS apps when you've given
> the device a keyboard and a trackpad+cursor.

That would turn the keyboard and trackpad into a requirement rather than an
option. If you want macOS you already have options. The iPad is great because
it's tablet first with touch as primary input method.

------
braythwayt
“iPad Pro will be available in stores starting next week.”

If only the stores Outside of China were open...

~~~
joemaller1
was going to say, that'll be some trick

~~~
Grustaf
Does a tree falling in the forest make a sound?

------
zoom6628
While everybody is 'discussing' the technical and use-case merits in that
manner for which HN is (in)famous i would like to point out that this device
looks like somebody decided the iPads could do with some design flair so they
took a photo of an iPhone SE and enlarged it and then basically said "Done!".

Specs, users, emotion aside at least as a physical device it actually has some
style. At last. Thank you somebody inside Apple for not producing yet another
round edge, nearly anonymous, soap-bar slab.

------
baxtr
So basically it has evolved into a laptop with a detachable monitor that
includes a built-in camera (which is for sure awesome)

~~~
stinos
Yes I wonder what's going to 'win', tablet or 'laptop which can act like
tablet', or will they both stay?

At this rate we'll have to start comparing tablets like this to laptops like
Surface Pro and it's clones (or vice-versa, maybe the Surface is the clone,
don't remember exact sequence of events) because the only difference is the
OS. And if more 'tablet modes' start emerging from main OS the gap will become
very narrow.

~~~
skohan
I can't imagine a tablet is ever going to win for extremely typing-heavy tasks
like writing and coding. This new keyboard also seems like it requires you to
be sitting at a table to work well, which doesn't cover a lot of the cases
where I type on a laptop.

To be honest, it's hard for me to think of cases where the tablet is better
suited outside of things like digital drawing/painting, and some niche cases
like at an expo.

~~~
falcolas
From my colleague's and my experience: the iPad pro is a manager's dream. It's
lightweight, you can take notes (either by writing or by typing), you can
attend remote meetings with it, it works with all* websites... basically it's
everything your average manager or C-level exec could ever want in one
package.

You are right, however, in that long-form typing (say, over 1k words) and
serious multitasking (>2 apps, or 2 apps that refuse to side-by-side) will be
a real pain on a tablet. However, you can hook an iPad pro up to a standard
USB-C dock and use it with a large monitor as well as a standard keyboard. It
will never be a full laptop replacement (though if Apple made it possible to
run base MacOS I might change my mind), but it's good enough.

* The only websites I've ever had issues with are those that explicitly break the experience.

------
bartq
Those kinds of laptops/tablets are great for one reason: no heating components
under keyboard. I hate "heated keyboards". I hope Apple will at some point
allow to install macOS on iPads. Seems like it's possible, until that moment
it'll be only consumption/sensors input device which is a shame. Unfortunately
not a programmer machine.

~~~
anentropic
Reading your comment I realised I actually love "heated keyboards"... I often
lay my hands on my laptop to warm up cold fingers :)

------
pradn
People in this thread are comparing the iPad Pro to a laptop. I would like to
get one just to serve as a powerful consumption machine. Websites will load
faster with the powerful CPU. It has a great screen and a pencil for
occasional doodling. Yes, I know it's expensive, but iPads also last a long
time so it's a good deal.

------
exabrial
"Studio Quality Mics" are kinda useless if you can only monitor the sound
through Bluetooth :) too much latency. You'll need a low latency ADC running
through that single usb-c port. Or you know, just do what the rest of the
world does and use an analog headphone jack for monitoring!

~~~
falcolas
Even an analog jack is pretty slow (for example, with a macbook) since it's
still going through the OS stack. IMO, you really want your monitor integrated
with your microphone in an external setup (such as a Scarlet 2).

Then again, I'm exceptionally sensitive to monitor latency when talking, it
might be fine for others.

~~~
exabrial
Me too actually. Especially while singing. Anything over 7ms or so and I find
it really hard to not sound like an idiot

------
partiallypro
Apple has come around to basically just outright copy the Microsoft Surface.
It does look very nice though.

~~~
duxup
I was pretty skeptical of the Surface myself but man I see them everywhere. At
least a heck of a lot more often than I anticipated.

------
lostgame
When Logic _Pro_ is available on the iPad _Pro_ , I will concede to its name
being acceptable.

Even developing on it is secondary.

 _You have Pro apps. Start acting like it._

By their own software definition - this is not a Pro machine.

If I need a Mac to run your Pro software, what makes this device fit into the
‘Pro’ category?

------
mr_tristan
What is the size of the app market for iPad software? Does this device matter
to that market?

I still feel like my own iPad usage is mostly locked by a weak software
ecosystem, and while the hardware is impressive, it still seems like complete
overkill for the current ecosystem.

I want to use it more, but the software for things I would have expected on
the iPad, like 3D design, music production, etc, are often limited, either by
software or connectivity issues.

I've gotten more use out of my Linux notebook running a Windows VM. Which
surprised me.

I just get the feeling that the only people really making serious money on
iPad apps are games, which are probably just ports of phone apps.

~~~
claudeganon
It’s big on the creative side of things if you can make good software. Most
artists love the iPad Pro, but absolutely despise Adobe. All my friends have
spent good chunks of money on apps like Procreate, Clip Studio, and the
Affinity apps, just to be free of Adobe

~~~
wlesieutre
A whole $6 on Procreate if the price hasn't changed since I got it.

It's an incredible piece of software for the price and I really appreciate
them making it affordable for non-professional artists.

I've been priced out of everything Adobe makes, but Procreate and the Affinity
apps are fantastic.

------
m0zg
I wish they'd do something about battery discharge when off. I had an older
model iPad, and it could be left alone for a week and it'd still have charge.
Previous gen Pro is pretty much dead after a couple of days. I know it's not
fully "off" when it's off, but come on, throw on some more lithium or
something. At that price I shouldn't worry about charge when I'm about to get
onto my stationary bike and would like to watch a movie.

------
airnomad
I would love to use iOS devices but somehow I just can't accept I can't run
Linux on them. I understand, it's all great and neat and etc. but I also
believe IT professionals should use open source OS if possible at all. I don't
have strong arguments for this so I understand people have different
expectations and understanding.

~~~
saagarjha
You sort of can: [https://ish.app/](https://ish.app/)

------
gridlockd
"Your next computer is not a computer."

That's the marketing slogan for the new iPad Pro.

Indeed, it's not a computer. Anything that does not let me compile and run
programs for the platform itself is not a computer, it's a toy.

There's nothing wrong with toys, of course. I enjoy video game consoles,
handhelds just as much as I enjoy the iPad.

------
rustyconover
Top question: Is the keyboard a butterfly keyboard or is it more like the new
MacBook Pro's 16 inch keyboard?

~~~
cjg_
"A full-size keyboard designed for iPad Pro brings individual hard keycaps and
a scissor mechanism with 1 mm travel for a responsive, comfortable and quiet
typing experience."

Seems very similar to the new Pro keyboard!

------
gerardnll
What do you guys do with an iPad? I cannot barely imagine working with it. I
just see it useful for emails, web surfing and not much more... It's a very
expensive device, I don't see any justified use. You can get a macbook air for
less and have a full blown Photoshop, IDEs, Word...

~~~
thirdsun
Personally, I have no use for a laptop and use my desktop for "real" work
(development, audio production). In a mobile setting I prefer my device to
actually be lightweight and mobile and the iPad beats any laptop in that
regard. It's also my most used device when it comes to casual usage like
internet browsing, reading, research, writing, watching, sketching out audio
ideas etc. - frankly, these days I can't imagine being bound to my desk to do
these things. It's incredibly comfortable to have these abilities at hand
whether you're on the couch, preparing meals in the kitchen or laying on the
deck.

------
zelienople
Zero interest until I can:

\- use a native build of Firefox without webkit

\- have low-latency audio

\- do network troubleshooting with MAC address access

\- use VOIP with proper background operation & notification

Sorry, Apple, but you created the greatest software/hardware ecosystem in
history and then screwed the pooch so badly that you lost me as a customer and
a developer.

~~~
HatchedLake721
Oh wow, that's a well managed list of expectations... Do you realise who the
iPad is made for and why? Your network troubleshooting with MAC access
requirements represents <0.01% of people who would use iPad for that.

Just get the right tools for your job (that exist for decades, and have been
slimmed to down to portable, few mm devices knows as laptops) and don't expect
Apple to suddenly make iPad do everything that your job requires you to do.

Apple lost you as a customer and a developer, but it gained few hundred
million more, including my parents who now know how to use computers and
phones. I don't get people that don't get it.

~~~
wayneftw
You don't get why people who have full control over their current Pro
computers wouldn't want to move to a locked down, walled in garden of a "Pro"
device?

The vast, vast majority of the hundreds of millions of customers they gained
with the iPad aren't doing any work that is even remotely similar to what can
be done on a general purpose OS. And furthermore, even if they can do some of
the same work - they can't do it with nearly the same efficiency.

The vast majority of iPad users aren't even doing any work on their iPads.
They're consuming.

Apple can keep trying to make the iPad appeal to users who need full control
over their computer, but it ain't gonna happen until they actually give us
full control.

~~~
HatchedLake721
I get why people wouldn't want to move to a locked down computer. I am a
developer/engineer making a living off a MacBook, I'm not moving to iPad.

What I meant is, I don't get why people don't understand why Apple doesn't
care to their needs of "do network troubleshooting with MAC address access",
to extent that they're angry, and say "[Apple] screwed the pooch so badly that
you lost me as a customer and a developer".

This is unbelievable thing to say, especially in this community.

Should I stop using Apple as a customer and developer because they're not
bringing out native Kubernetes integration to manage my serverless Knative
functions on iPad? ...

------
LordOfWolves
Like other commenters, I will never buy another iPad unless it comes preloaded
with a desktop-like operating system (like macOS) versus iOS.

One would think Apple has explored doing this - putting OSX/macOS on an iPad -
given that Microsoft put Windows on the Surface and gained market share as a
result.

Why they haven't released any consumer/commercial iPads with a desktop-like
operating system, an OS whose first versions were able to run on a 7.8 MHz
processor (the Motorola 68000) and 128 KB of RAM, is beyond me. Of course the
more recent the OS, the greater the hardware requirements, but I do not see it
impossible to "fit" a version of OSX/macOS to a tablet.

Does it all come down to avoiding cannibalization of Macbook Air sales?

~~~
kylec
You can't just take a non-touch OS and release it on touchscreen devices. It
makes more sense to try and add additional power/functionality/versatility to
the already touch-based iOS, which Apple is doing, than it does to try and
redesign macOS for touch.

------
karmicthreat
My mechanical engineer co-worker loves the depth sensor on the old iPad Pro.
He uses it all the time to shapes into solidworks that he then designs parts
to fit onto.

I'm sure he will be excited about this if the sensor is that much better.

~~~
antimetropic
Any software recommendations for this? I really like my iPad Pro for all sorts
of other reasons, but until seeing your comment I didn’t realize that 3d
scanning with the depth camera was a thing, and am now interested in trying it
out.

------
jordache
only using ipad because of procreate.

I don't know if that's sad or good of apple.. Is the iOS ecosystem a unique
enabler of procreate?

As an os for a large form factor device, iOS is a JOKE in terms of UX. It's
still just a giant iPhone.

------
pronouncedjerry
The main thing Apple still hasn't addressed that it doesn't need new hardware
for is multiple profiles. One of the most prevalent environments the device is
used is at home, shared by the family.

------
sbr464
It seems there is still no escape key. It’s super annoying to have to pick up
your hand to touch the screen to escape out of random UI tasks. I haven’t
found a hack or remapping ability like on macOS etc.

~~~
greggh
This is how you do an ESC key on iPadOS:

Command + [

~~~
sbr464
Have you tested recently? I’m familiar with a few of the key combinations that
should work (by sending the replacement key for escape), but they haven’t been
working.

Just tested and it doesn’t work (to confirm).

------
tdhttt
The rear facing camera seems to have a nice upgrade. However, apart from AR
applications, I found it weird to hold a 12 inch tablet in the air to take
pictures while everyone could see my screen.

------
bryanmgreen
So, is Apple on discontinuing Lightning now?

Will USB-C be on the next iPhone?

~~~
thedance
The writing has been on the wall for a while. They already nuked one
generation of iThing connectors (two, if you count the FireWire iPods) and we
survived. We will quickly get over the death of Lightning. The only people who
will be seriously upset will be people owning the original Apple Pencil.

------
vermaden
This iPad (with this new keyboard) is the first step for Apple to provide ARM
powered Macbook, but now its called iPad Pro to not make unneeded noise ...

------
exoque
Looks like they'll have reinvented the macbook air in two generations. Not
that it's a bad thing.

> (the lidar) operates at the photon level at nano-second speed.

Whaddya say!

~~~
frabert
To be fair, my phone operates at the photon level tol, when using the radio...

~~~
TeMPOraL
Yes, and my butt is held in the seat by utilizing quantum electrodynamics, in
a way we don't fully understand just yet.

------
KMnO4
Wow, I was just about to buy a 3rd generation. I’m really glad they brought
back 128gb storage — 64gb is too little and 256gb is overkill for my needs.

~~~
klaustopher
Always check the [buyers
guide]([https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/](https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/))
before buying Apple stuff :)

~~~
bryanmgreen
That's a surprisingly neat and useful page.

------
yakkers
I’m a bit disappointed in the new iPad Pro, since it seems to be just as thin
as the previous.

As someone who had nothing but trouble with the 2018 model because of this,
it’s disappointing to see that Apple’s trend of reducing thinness for things
such as better battery life (iPhone 11 (Pro)) or better thermals (MacBook Pro
16”) didn’t carry over to the iPad Pro, which arguably suffered the most from
its thinness.

------
owenversteeg
Anyone here use these for webdev (or development work more generally) as a
replacement for a laptop? How well does that work? I'm very curious.

~~~
baybal2
You can't install your own software on ios without jailbreak (which is not
available since iphone 5 or so)

~~~
saagarjha
Yes, you can. You just need to sign it appropriately. Also, there's been
multiple jailbreaks since iPhone 5.

~~~
thejsa
Having to re-sign one’s apps every seven days (or pay $99/yr) barely counts,
IMO; but yes, jailbreaking is easier than ever on any iPhone s as recent as
the X/8.

------
brailsafe
It doesn't seem to have any differences with the current model that are really
important, so it should bring down the price of 2018 models significantly on
the used market. Being a whole 2 years old instead of the latest version is a
big difference, and iPad pros in general aren't holding their value like macs
do.

For me, they've always been "kind of neat to have, but not for $2200".

------
mmaunder
Anyone here work in VFX and/or CG in the film industry? I suspect the lidar
scanner is borrowing from film sets where they'll do a lidar scan to model the
3d environment. But I'm out of my depth. I'd like to know what the current pro
workflow is and then speculate at how this might translate into consumers
using the tool.

------
evgen
The only question I have, and the only question I ask regarding any external
keyboard for an iOS device: can I remap caps lock?

~~~
xattt
Tangential, but I’ve observed that preferences of what caps lock should be is
dependent on your domain.

I write and use a browser in my work. Caps lock as backspace makes the most
sense. There will be others that will (unnecessarily) argue with me that caps
should and always will be escape.

A possible (mainstream) solution is to change the caps to a custom key that’s
configured in the initial setup of a device.

~~~
saagarjha
> Caps lock as backspace makes the most sense.

But you have a backspace key on your keyboard?

~~~
xattt
Reach is less.

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
I’d like a magic keyboard for Mac with a small trackpad incorporated into too!
Don’t need a huge separate trackpad.

~~~
Austin_Conlon
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twentieth_Anniversary_Macintos...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twentieth_Anniversary_Macintosh#/media/File:Twentieth_Anniversary_Macintosh,_Berlin_2014.jpg)

------
singularity2001
Well that was an anticlimactic announcement.

I understand they had to cancel the live show, but not even a promo video...?

------
ccktlmazeltov
I've given up writing on the iPad pro, because you can't really hold it on
your knees with a keyboard and because the screen is not well positioned (back
pains).

This new keyboard thing is amazing. Really expensive but I think I might take
the bullet on this one.

------
dippersauce
Funny how Apple went from a mindset that mice were only intended to be
accessibility peripherals in iOS, to fully support for them so quickly. I
think it was only a year or so ago that someone high up at Apple said
something to reaffirm that mindset.

------
geniium
Looks nice, but I won't invest another dime until I can launch all my macOS
app on it.

------
mason55
I thought solid state Lidar was still under development, at least as far as
cheap mass production goes. Is that not the case? Or is that just true for
lidar that’s powerful enough for self-driving cars? Or is this not solid-state
lidar?

------
mberning
I love it. The new keyboard looks great. I have a first gen 12.9 iPad pro and
it has completely replaced a laptop for everything but my development work. I
can't wait for Apple to put A series processors into a Macbook pro.

------
Keyframe
Not sure about floating keyboard design. I have latest (well, before this one)
ipad pro with keyboard and it sits really well on an actual lap. I have doubts
about this. Looks like it would bounce on a lap when typing.

------
DelightOne
How much RAM does it have and how many cores? I can't find any mention.

~~~
HatchedLake721
When did this ever matter on an iPad?

~~~
zxcb1
Safari and app switching

------
rowanG077
You can't even imagine how hard I wish I could run Linux on this thing. The
hardware is just so good. But it's just not possible to work with the useless
OS that's on there...

~~~
72deluxe
With X or Wayland????

~~~
rowanG077
I don't care.

------
ngcc_hk
Got 3 ipad not pro. I am on reading paper and writing. The sync, ability to
comment then back to mac to touch up is great. But 11 need rudder ... horse of
course as one said.

------
sevencolors
The animation in the canvas elements is slick! I want to learn how to create
something like that. Looks like highly optimized sprite animations to do the
faux 3d rotations.

------
SomeHacker44
I'm not certain, but I'm pretty sure they are misspelling the alphabet. It's
supposed to be A24Z, not A12Z. Unless it's half off right now.

------
julienfr112
Any idea how exactly the "lidar" works ? is that like the kinect or a true
lidar that project a moving laser point and measure time of flight ??

------
excalibur
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wjhTt9fqYY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wjhTt9fqYY)

------
Swaglord333
If these things are finally as quick as desktops can we go back to "you're-
allowed-to" operating systems?

------
pier25
Can you finally use the keyboard/cover properly on your lap or in positions
like sitting with your legs crossed?

------
localhost
Anyone considering using iPad Pro + VS Online + remote VM-based compute for
their development workflows?

~~~
tzmudzin
Hell, no.

With all due respect: KISS.

~~~
localhost
This is exactly how my friends at FB work every day (not necessarily from an
iPad Pro), but the remote VM thing is very real in some parts of the world.

~~~
tzmudzin
Great if it works for them. From the operations point of view every additional
layer and every new dependency hurts.

[OK, I'm going back to my cave now...]

------
neuronic
At what point on this trajectory will MacBook Pro merge with iPad Pro? When
macOS and iPadOS converge?

~~~
72deluxe
I hope that day never occurs. iPadOS is like a toy compared to macOS, although
recent macOS has got more locked down (no directories in root, separate OS
partition with incorrect total size reporting etc.).

When the 2 converge I am outta here.

------
nonane
Anyone know more about the new Trackpad APIs the mention in they mentioned in
the article?

------
mamon
Addition of LiDAR seems consistent with my theory that Apple is actualy a
branch of NSA:

* first they put fingerprint scanner in the home button, so they could collect fingerprints of all their users.

* then they put FaceID, so now they have a high-res scan of everyones face

* now they are putting LiDAR so that they can scan your whole body, and map all your surroundings.

------
dharma1
What's the Apple pencil to use with this? Still Pencil 2?

~~~
ericlewis
correct.

------
jrochkind1
How long until they stop making MacOS devices, do you think?

~~~
rtkwe
A while still I think. The tablet laptop form factor is still not quite as
good as just a laptop in a lot of situations. It only really works well when
you have a large enough space to move the tablet around to make the limited
angle options work for example.

------
jiveturkey
don't know if i am a customer of this product yet, but this is the best ad
i've seen from Apple. they are firing on all cylinders.

------
ppeetteerr
Cool. Now to get the first version of the pro

------
freewizard
I'll continue to be skeptical about the "next computer" marketing of iPad Pro
before there can be some breakthrough of multi-tasking design.

------
fellellor
Can I finally develop apps on this one?

------
adrianhel
I just hope it doesn't use a butterfly keyboard. Man, Apple is making home
office worse than it needs to be.

------
cronix
What a time to be releasing new devices. The sales will be an embarrassment.

------
sneak
Still no ESC key. :(

~~~
saagarjha
If you don't mind losing your caps lock key, you can remap it to escape.

------
repler
What Apple SHOULD be working on right now is FaceTime for Android.

~~~
ceejayoz
Why on earth would they?

My BIL married into our all iPhone family. We regularly harass him about
getting one, and I suspect he eventually will.

It's one of their best marketing tactics.

~~~
izacus
> We regularly harass him about getting one, and I suspect he eventually will.

But... why? Are you paid by apple to harass people to buy their products... or
why are you doing that?!

~~~
ceejayoz
Because we've had a family group iMessage chat going for nearly a decade now,
and there's approximately zero percent chance of my Mum adopting a different
platform. (It's also light-hearted teasing, not an alcoholism-style
intervention.)

------
nirav72
wish apple would seriously do something about safari.

~~~
snazz
Now it runs most desktop web apps (like Google Docs) just fine, so they've
obviously been making a lot of improvements. Everything that came with iOS 13
has been a huge improvement for web browsing on the iPad.

------
baggachipz
> adds trackpad support

> adds keyboard

So... a laptop?

~~~
braythwayt
It is a laptop in the same way that a penguin is a fish. Same in so many ways,
yet different paths to get there lead to different trade-offs.

------
dcroley
I wonder if the "floating" display thing is going to wobble a lot. Looks like
design over function.

------
fxtentacle
With the keyboard, it looks like my old Surface Pro 4, except that all of my
Windows-based productivity apps are missing.

------
sneak
lidar?!

Between the 3D front-scanner for Face ID (which, incidentally, worked less
well than TouchID did at the time of FaceID launch), the whole touchbar
debacle, the UWB radio locator stuff in the latest iPhones, EKG support on the
watch, and now LIDAR on the iPad, it seems like Apple is lately really into
putting esoteric/novel hardware that nobody really wants or cares about into
their newest high-end devices. There's even an argument that the now-debunked
butterfly keyboard foray falls into this category (literally _nothing_ was
wrong with the scissor/mbair keyboard, as evidenced by the fact that they've
returned to it essentially unmodified).

You can make the argument that Face ID/3D front scanner has enough "wow" or
utility to be a selling point. I'm not so sure about any of the other stuff,
_especially_ the UWB and now LIDAR. This feels like throwing stuff against the
wall until something or other sticks—pretty un-Apple, IMO.

I feel like Apple's hit a rough patch in terms of traditional Apple-level
innovation; the AirPods and HomePod are mindbendingly great products, but
outside of those, "going back to the old keyboard" is the biggest selling
point they've shipped really since going all-in on Retina and then Display P3.
Everything else user-facing has been incremental (e.g. TrueTone, routine
CPU/GPU advances). To be clear, I don't mean to disparage the technical merit
of these achievements in any way. It's a major achievement to do what they've
done, and there's a lot more of it, across more product lines than ever before
in their history, but my iPhone 11 pro maximum mclargehuge is not twice as
good as my iPhone 7 was, CPU/GPU increases notwithstanding.

(I'm really, really glad about the T2 boot security that prevents Evil Maid,
and the speakers in the new rMBP 16" are _astoundingly_ good, and the 120Hz on
iPad Pro is lovely, but this comment is about marquee/headline features.)

Maybe they're just more startuppy now, trying different things in different
directions to see what cool technology ends up sticking around. I'm reminded
of the time they shipped a bunch of speech recognition launcher/shortcut stuff
and voiceprint login out of left field with os9. I still don't "get" where
they think they're headed with AR (which is not to say they don't have a cool
plan, just that it's not obvious from the outside what, if anything, it is).

I sure hope they've got something big up their sleeve other than the impending
AnX CPU macOS laptops.

~~~
braythwayt
Apple user since 1985 here. Apple has made some marvellous things, but if we
actually look at their entire history, innovation has happened in lurches,
it’s not like every single thing they ship upends and redefines entire
categories.

Tons of stuff the do is incremental, and yes, lots of dead-ends happen. Just
look at the history of their mice. Or Newton. Or their tepid ventures into
consoles, Macs that doubled as TVs, or CD-ROM drives that were also standalone
CD players.

~~~
sneak
Yeah, you've got a great point. It's easy to forget a lot of their quirky
weird sometimes-dead-end experiments over the years. It could just be a memory
bias.

To this end, though: are there any Apple historians, inside or outside of the
company?

~~~
macintux
Definitely. There’s even this:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_University](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_University)

------
k__
What has the Android faction planned?

Serious question. I like the idea and Android users are always running around
with "we had that years ago". Well, I don't see that in this case, but would
be happy to be told otherwise :)

------
jimnotgym
IPad Pro. Oxymoron?

Apple make beautiful high end _consumer_ electronics. This is the kind of
gadget that every IT manager wastes their time accomodating for flash execs.
If Apple made professional equipment it would work properly with AD and Azure
AD.

------
Invictus0
Surprised no one's mentioned the USB-C yet. Definitely an indication that
Apple considers this as more of a replace-your-computer device.

~~~
saagarjha
Perhaps because it's not new; the previous iPad Pro shipped with it too.

------
wyager
Apple's marketing on the new iPad pros is that they can replace your computer.
I bought the most recent iPad Pro model and I can say that unless the only
thing you do on your computer is browse the internet (without downloading
anything) you're going to have a bad time. Here are some things that don't
work:

* A full-featured file browser. The files app is sort of workable now, but the experience is really bad and certainly not suitable for any kind of professional or power-user usage.

* SMB or any other kind of file sharing. Once again, Apple theoretically supports this now, but in practice it's totally broken and non-functional.

* Video editing. The iPad only supports a few formats and refuses to show high-quality videos (the limit is 100mbps or 200mbps or something).

* High quality video conferencing/streaming/recording. The iPad pro has somewhat-working support for external audio devices (although apps have to support device selection, and most don't), but it has zero support whatsoever for external video devices. This means you're stuck with the shitty built-in cameras (which, no matter what Apple marketing says, are not "pro" or "studio" quality)

* No ability to do any kind of coding or scripting or anything except via SSH to a real general purpose computer

Some things that do work ok:

* Email

* Web browsing

* Photo editing (this is actually quite nice, as long as you don't need bulk processing)

* It's a decent SSH thin client, with an app like Prompt

* Note taking

I mostly use my iPad for taking notes and stuff at work, and occasionally for
photo proofing/editing. For everything else, I still use my laptop.

~~~
TravelPiglet
What most people use a computer for these days are not what we use a computer
for. Most people probably require little except a phone for most computing
needs.

* Getting a convenient dock and better physical keyboard. * Surfing on an iPad is probably a lot better and fast experience than a similarly priced computer. * A lot of dedicated apps for most tasks people need. (Youtube, Spotify, Netflix, etc) * People use email/dropbox/similar for sharing files. * File browser definitely needs improvement. Specially for working with email attachments. * As long as you can edit videos recorded with your phone/ipad. * Most people use the built in camera and mic or perhaps a dedicated computer for conferencing. * Getting Excel on it would be sufficient for business programming.

~~~
wyager
> What most people use a computer for these days are not what we use a
> computer for.

That's why I'm posting this on HN and not Facebook or something.

Everything you mention could be done on a smartphone - no need for this
allegedly "computer replacing" iPad.

The people at my company who use Excel absolutely could not do what they do on
an iPad.

~~~
TravelPiglet
Apple released a pro product that’s not aimed at programmers. The physical
form factor and keyboard are useful even if the computing could be done in a
phone.

------
zcw100
It's hard to get excited about a $1000 iPad when the US is projecting 20%
unemployment. A large portion of he population is facing death from a global
pandemic, is wondering how they're going to pay their mortgage, utilities or
food but yayyyyy an iPad!!!

------
Idajas
Not going to buy something from Apple, as i am not interested in paying tons
of money just for the brand name.

~~~
philistine
You’d also receive an iPad with your purchase.

~~~
Austin_Conlon
As well as a couple of stickers of fruit.

~~~
inscionent
Someone bit into mine. Gross.

