
Facebook is able to identify music and TV when writing status update - chippy
https://www.facebook.com/help/android-app/369513256545845
======
kehrlann
Is it just me or is it _beyond_ creepy ?

Location, sound ... soon they will be collecting biometric data as well, "just
to get room temperature, promise".

~~~
rayalez
Look, I know that nowdays it's popular to pay attention to security and
privacy, and I understand that it's important. But can we for once not
immediately assume ill intentions?

I mean come on, do you seriously believe that programmers at facebook are
rubbing their hands and laughing at how smart they are, figuring out how to
turn on your mike for 15 seconds? Is that _really_ what you believe is going
on?

Or is it just trendy to scream "creepy! surveilance!" on every occasion?

~~~
smoyer
I don't believe the programmers at Facebook have evil intentions - I think
they're just trying to build something that's technically cool. The problem is
the MBAs will trying to build something businessy out of it and won't care
whether it requires evil if it might possible make them some money.

There can also be a temporal factor. Today there might be no evil intentions
but in a couple years someone might find that "we have this whole data set we
could do X with".

~~~
forgetsusername
So you think the engineers are innocent and altruistic, and the MBAs are evil,
huh?

What an incredibly naive viewpoint. Which one is Mr. Zuckerberg? I recall him
have a few choice words for the "suckers" who sign up for his service and hand
over their data.

~~~
smoyer
Of course not - I'm skeptical of everyone's intentions and specifically think
through how to best protect my own privacy (I don't have a Facebook account).
Of course, Facebook didn't choose "Don't be evil" as their slogan so you can
assume the standard "Make money by any means possible" slogan. Yes, I'm
appropriately jaded.

In any case, the comment I responded to was pretty specific in asking us to
trust that the programmers motives were pure. I wanted to point out that
things could turn creepy later in the business life-cycle even if the original
motives were non-evil.

------
sarreph
"Are you recording my conversations, Facebook?"

"Of course not, silly! We don't listen to your conversations, we just
_identify the things you 're listening to_, of course!"

0_O

~~~
pdkl95
> we just identify the things you're listening to, of course

...by _recording the conversation_ so it can be uploaded to the server that
does the recognition, because nobody is doing this kind of processing client-
side.

Just like the idea that "streaming" is somehow different than "downloading",
the commonly-repeated claims that this kind of technology is only "processing"
without mentioning where the data is processed is a carefully constructed
_lie_ designed to frame the discussion.

The use of propaganda to confuse how their product works suggests that
Facebook (et al) knows there would be resistance if they offered the same
features plainly. In my opinion this should count as _mens rea_.

~~~
remon
> because nobody is doing this kind of processing client-side.

This is a half truth at best. Audio recognition can be based on one of two
techniques. The first is audio watermarking which is completely client side
(albeit not applicable for this FB feature) or fingerprinting. They'll likely
use the latter which records a segment of audio, does the rough audio
equivalent of a hash on it and then send it the server for an optimised
pattern match. It's somewhat unlikely they'll send raw audio to their servers
although that's an assumption.

~~~
Gnewt
I mean, it's an assumption that's got some known counterexamples. For example,
Google Now stores the raw audio from every time you activate it / dictate a
question on an Android device. It's not out of the question to expect that
Facebook might be keeping raw audio data to process later / test.

------
rplnt
Android is in desperate need of allowing users to change permission for app.
It's ridiculous that the application decides what it has access to (and
android it is not making it easier with a bad permission granularity). And I
believe this functionality was in some pre-release 5.0 versions. They removed
it because apps would just crash if permissions were removed. However, there
are apps that solve this (for rooted phones) by providing dummy (null) data on
API calls that you blocked.

For example, there is absolutely no reason my facebook app should ever have
access to a microphone.

~~~
cnorthwood
Android 6.0 has the functionality you describe - there's a warning if you try
to disable it for certain apps (presumably for older API levels) though that
it may cause them to crash. I imagine this'll go away with time.

~~~
georgerobinson
I just got a Motorola Moto G to replace an aging iPhone 5s. I do like Android,
but there are so many features of it that I find just completely irksome.

For example, Google release Android 6.0 but I can't upgrade until Motorola
decide when and if I can update my phone. Why can't I upgrade at the same time
as everyone else, like on iOS?

Second is the abysmal permissions system which grants access to everything and
anything - else you can't talk to your friends on Whatsapp.

~~~
talmand
>> Why can't I upgrade at the same time as everyone else, like on iOS?

Because Google doesn't control updates for your phone and most likely neither
does Motorola, complain to your carrier. The carrier has the option to offer a
vanilla Android that can be updated whenever new versions are available, but
most don't to offer their own customized versions.

~~~
georgerobinson
I bought the phone from Amazon, SIM-free, so I'm not sure if Vodafone are the
right people to complain to here?

~~~
talmand
Nope, you're probably on your own in that case.

~~~
georgerobinson
> Nope, you're probably on your own in that case.

Right, and this is the very problem with Android.

------
mootothemax
This seems to be kicking up a fuss over nothing, and any controversy
disappears once you read how to use the feature in question:

 _Using your microphone and music apps lets you share the TV and music you’re
currently playing to your posts.

To identify and share what you're listening to or watching:

1\. Tap Status on your News Feed or tap Write Post on your Timeline.

2\. Wait for us to identify what you're listening to or watching. You'll know
if we're searching for audio matches if you see [an animated icon] moving.

3\. Once a match is found, tap [an icon] to select the thing you'd like to
share and then fill in your status update.

4\. Tap Post._

[https://www.facebook.com/help/android-
app/710615012295337](https://www.facebook.com/help/android-
app/710615012295337)

~~~
zyrthofar
The fuss is about the data sent to Facebook's servers for "identification".
You can make the decision to post it or not, but Facebook knows it in either
case.

~~~
mootothemax
>The fuss is about the data sent to Facebook's servers for "identification".
You can make the decision to post it or not, but Facebook knows it in either
case.

But it's OK for Shazam or Soundhound?

At which point is a feature _just what it says on the tin_?

~~~
beyti
Their main functionality is that data, which user knows before installing the
app.

------
remon
Although I agree with the general concerns raised in this thread FB is not
sending raw audio to its servers and thus is not "listening" to you. The
majority of work is done on the client-side. Specifically, a short audio
sample is analysed client-side and turned into an audio fingerprint (the rough
audio equivalent of hashing a value). That fingerprint alone is sent to the
server for matching. Note that there is no way to reverse that process (hence
the hash analogy) to get audible sounds out of it. Of course, this is all
based on the assumption that Facebook is telling it like it is but given the
fact that the difference in bandwidth use is an order of magnitude that's very
easy to check.

------
chippy
This is an opt-in feature, and is for the Android app.

~~~
MrBra
So it will add up to your GPS data..

------
donalhunt
I wonder whether the reaction to this differs based on location of the user.
Are European users more worried about this than US-based users?

------
coldcode
And people complain when aliens use rectal probes. Facebook's ultimate game is
to keep you entirely within its universe, know everything you know, and ensure
the advertisers have exclusive access to you and your information. It's the
only way to grow revenues for a free service and justify a crazy stock price.

------
MarkCole
Privacy concerns aside, I'd be very interested on how they're doing this on a
technical level. Does anyone know if they've published a post on how this is
done yet? Or have any ideas on how they think it's being done?

~~~
royjacobs
It's called "audio fingerprinting" and it basically converts a snippet of
audio from your phone is something similar to a hash of that audio. Then,
using some clever algorithms, it can be quickly matched against a database of
existing hashes. Because of the way the algorithm works the match doesn't have
to be either 0% or 100%, because realistically whatever is recorded on your
phone will never exactly match the original.

Disclaimer: I used to work at a company that built this type of technology.

~~~
MarkCole
That is interesting, I didn't know it had a name. Now I have something to look
for, Thanks!

------
mrmondo
That's one very scary invasion of privacy masked as a "feature".

------
gedrap
They introduced similar feature with football (soccer) this weekend, or
earlier and I didn't notice.

When one of the teams I like is playing a match, the placeholder for post
status is replaced with something asking my opinion about the match and a
football icon is added.

Which is a decent idea to get more people updating their statuses and posting
more.

Regarding privacy, etc. Eh, damn, it gets boring when so many comments are
about how facebook is stealing your data and what not for every post like
this. Yes, we all know that and no need to remind about it every time.

~~~
gjulianm
There's a difference, though: you explicitly told Facebook what you like, and
it's acting on it. You pressed "like" on your team, and Facebook can check if
it's playing right now. However, this is different: you didn't tell Facebook
"hey search what show I'm watching".

Regarding the "it gets boring": yes, it's boring, but until it changes we will
continue pointing it out. Because if you don't do it, people forget. We end up
taking it for granted. Tell me how many people on Facebook know "Facebook
steals their data" and how many of them actually act on it. What actually
happens is that people have a vague idea of the privacy issues but, because
"we all know it" and "it's boring" it doesn't get discussed and we end up
accepting it.

~~~
gedrap
>>> What actually happens is that people have a vague idea of the privacy
issues but, because "we all know it" and "it's boring" it doesn't get
discussed and we end up accepting it.

After the Snowden leaks, pretty much everyone on HN is aware of the issues. So
some are strongly against it and are vocal, and others silently accept it and
don't think it's possible to convince them otherwise.

But anyway, thank you for your nice, calm response to my semi-raging post :)

------
jdlyga
Just turn off microphone access for the Facebook app, or don't give it access
to begin with. Even with android, you should have that option in the latest
version.

------
danso
I looked through a few of the related questions. Is there any mention of
whether or not the snippets are stored beyond the time of analysis?

~~~
rmc
If you're not in the USA or Canada, then your contract is with Facebook
Ireland, which falls under EU Data Protection law. One thing this means is
that Facebook is required to give you a copy of all personal data it has on
you, if you ask for it.

If/When this feature is available outside the USA, then one could use it and
then make a data protection request to find out if they keep it.

------
nonprofiteer
it's new if it's new to you but this started happening a year ago:
[http://newsroom.fb.com/news/2014/05/a-new-optional-way-to-
sh...](http://newsroom.fb.com/news/2014/05/a-new-optional-way-to-share-and-
discover-music-tv-and-movies/)

------
foota
Interesting that it's only enabled in the United States right now, could this
be due to stricter privacy laws in other parts of the world?

------
SlashmanX
I actually think it's pretty cool that they can identify what you're watching
on TV

------
jason46
What if someone logs into facebook during a murder, could it be considered
surveillance?

~~~
talmand
No. As of right now Facebook is not a government entity.

------
icewater0
Naturally, anyone within earshot of an idiot with a smartphone has opted in as
well?

------
SixSigma
And people wonder why I use the browser version!

------
venomsnake
Phone - meet soldering gun. I am becoming more serious about installing
physical breaker behind the mic and camera on whatever device I get my hands
on.

~~~
rrrhys
That wouldn't be a very useful phone anymore.

~~~
venomsnake
It will be - I just connect a slider when I want it turned on

~~~
mrob
A soldering gun is a plumbing tool. It's far too big for working on phones,
and it's likely to damage them with induced current. You need a soldering iron
or a hot air rework station.

------
pinkunicorn
Lol not sure if its good/bad news..

------
n0mad01
and i still won't use facebook.

------
J_Darnley
Anyone who has a facebook account deserves this kind of spying.

~~~
kardos
Is that also true of anybody who is in the same room as those with facebook
accounts?

~~~
J_Darnley
Yes. If you don't block facebook on your network then you get what you
deserve. If you have friends or acquaintances who openly use facebook next to
you then you get what you deserve.

~~~
kardos
> If you don't block facebook on your network then you get what you deserve.

Also should I run a cell phone jammer?

> If you have friends or acquaintances who openly use facebook next to you
> then you get what you deserve.

I think I just got trolled here.

