

The oldest "0" in India for which one can assign a definite date - richeyrw
http://www.ams.org/samplings/feature-column/fcarc-india-zero

======
beloch
An earlier use of zero (as defined in the article) for which one can assign a
definite date was in 357 AD. The gotcha is that it's not the circle we're so
familiar with. This is the first Mayan (Olmec) long-count recorded containing
a zero, although long-counts showing a clear positional number system were
recorded in the first century BC.

[http://books.google.ca/books?id=TzrNgAsJY1MC&lpg=PP1&...](http://books.google.ca/books?id=TzrNgAsJY1MC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA49#v=onepage&q&f=false)

While the use of zero in India may have been influenced by earlier cultures
(e.g. Babylon), it's pretty unlikely there was any direct contact that could
have spread the use of zero to mesoamerica. Thus, positional number systems
with a zero place-holder have been invented independenly at least twice in
human history!

------
peter303
"New numbers" are invented to complete a group for a particular arithmetic
operation. Zero is not necessary the addition operation because all cardinals
one and above suffice. Zero is created for the subtraction operation of a
cardinal with itself.

There were empty place holders signs in place-number systems of Babylonia and
ancent China that function like our zero numeral. But this placeholder did not
enter arithmetic operations. So it is not considered the "modern" zero.

Ditto creating negative numbers for cmpleting the subtraction operation group.
Ratios for cardinal division. Real numbers for some ratios that are not
cardinals. Infinity for zero divisors. Irrationals for roots of cardinals.
Imaginaries for roots of negatives. Infinitesmals in differentiation and
integration. And so on ...

At some point in medevial times each of these new numbers were considered the
work of the Devil because they did not have concrete existance in the physical
world. Later on accountants showed how zero & negative numbers were usefule
for business. And physicists showed how these new numbers could predict the
physical world.

~~~
phaemon
>At some point in medevial times each of these new numbers were considered the
work of the Devil because they did not have concrete existance in the physical
world.

Really? Do you have a cite for this? It sounds made up.

~~~
oz
I can't speak for math, but I know that a few centuries ago, certain musical
notes were regarded as 'The Devil's Music':

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone#Historical_uses>
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4952646.stm>

~~~
foldr
Well, both of those articles explain that this was just perceived as a
dissonant interval which could be used a a musical representation of the
Devil. The interval was likely avoided for essentially aesthetic musical
reasons, and the Wikipedia article says that "...suggestions that singers were
excommunicated or otherwise punished by the Church for invoking this interval
are likely fanciful." Unfortunately the BBC article seems to be light on facts
and heavy on stereotypes of medieval monks as ignorant religious
fundamentalists.

------
tokenadult
A recent article of related interest is the story of the recovery of the
oldest datable inscription that shows a numeral zero used in base-ten place-
value notation, "How I Rediscovered the Oldest Zero in History,"

[http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2013/05/20/how-i-
redi...](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2013/05/20/how-i-rediscovered-
the-oldest-zero-in-history)

which links to the article kindly submitted here.

The submission title here is NOT the original article title, as preferred by
the Hacker News guidelines, and the other recent article suggests that the
title shown on the submission here is not fully accurate for all regions of
the world.

------
swatkat
Apparently, this article is about oldest known depection of _symbol_ of zero
(i.e. a circle), which is found in Gwalior's Chatur Bhuja temple.

But, zero in decimal place-value system[1] and zero's usage as a number[2][3]
are much older.

[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokavibhaga>

[2][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C4%81hmasphu%E1%B9%ADasiddh%...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C4%81hmasphu%E1%B9%ADasiddh%C4%81nta)

[3]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmagupta#Zero>

------
cpleppert
I'm not sure what the article claims here. This is the first dated inscription
but the positional arabic notation (with a zero like glyph) had been in use
for at least 300 years earlier. If you consider other place value systems the
concept of a 'separator' goes back much farther.

This isn't necessarily evidence that they understood zero as a number as
opposed to a concept. By 1000 in Europe they used a symbol as a placeholder
that looked superficially similar to our modern glyph of zero. When explaining
it, however, it was clear it was simply a placeholder that could always be
omitted and was "sometimes useful" and was absolutely not really a number. It
isn't clear that the glyph used here or in Europe was anything more than an
elaborate 'dot.' It certainly didn't seem to be be transmitted as a
recognizable glpyh but each culture rendered it in the way most convenient as
a counting and placeholder aid.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Yeah;all this talk of 'placeholders' that don't matter. Every digit is a
'placeholder', standing in for the count that it represents. Not convinced.

If it was used in a power-of-ten (or power-of-anything for that matter) for
'nothing here' then it was a digit, it was zero, and it should be considered a
legitimate heir to our zero.

------
chris_mahan
Very interesting!

Of course, reading "Those who can access JSTOR can find some of the papers
mentioned above there" demonstrates once more that, alas, the digital divide
still exists.

~~~
contingencies
RIP. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSTOR#Aaron_Swartz_incident>

------
salimmadjd
OT: in Arabic Zero is "Ciphr" or "Cipher" where we get the words decipher or
cipher from.

~~~
carlob
In many romance languages it is the root of the word we use for digit. It, es:
cifra, fr: chiffre, ro: cifrǎ. In Portuguese the word is algarismo and it
comes from al-Khwārizmī [0], who gives the name to algorithm as well.

------
dclowd9901
So if 0 wasn't a concept, you couldn't count to 10?

I'm not sure I understand. I thought the significance of 0 was the recognition
of an absence of existence. Just because numbers use 0 (270, 50, 20, etc.)
wouldn't seem to indicate that it was understood at that significance...

~~~
pfortuny
No, the problem is not '0' not being a concept. There are two issues here,
which are related but not the same. The conecpt of 'nothingness' is irrelevant
to both:

1) Dealing with '0' as an ordinary number.

2) Using a positional number system, which requires a symbol or context for
telling '1230' from '1023' and '1203', etc.

One tends to think that solving the first issue leads to the second. Solving
the second implies in some way having already solved the first, due to the
nature of positional systems.

~~~
KMag
> Solving the second implies in some way having already solved the first, due
> to the nature of positional systems.

Untrue. (Edit: actually true). It works perfectly well to have a decimal
number system using digits 1-10 instead of 0-9. For sake of notation, let's
say A is the digit representing 10.

"A" = 10, "11" = 11, "19" = 19, "1A" = 20, "21" = 21, etc.

Edit: actually, I misread your argument. What you argued is definitionally
true.

------
alainbryden
"The history of zero is a _bit_ complicated."

I see what you did there

~~~
onto
I see what _you_ did there.

------
realrocker
Also notable here is Aryabhatta who used a base of 10 symbol for zero[1].
Though he didn't use the notation '0'.
[1][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryabhata#Place_value_system_an...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryabhata#Place_value_system_and_zero)

