
Zero G: Some German mobile users still waiting for a signal - jonbaer
https://apnews.com/1a29c754044d8f2a593911368e86d028
======
metters
If you sign a new contract with an internet provider in Germany , you will
have to wait up to three weeks until somebody comes and turns one switch and
you have Internet.

In South Korea they will connect you on the afternoon of the same day.

Sources: I am German and my neighbours are Korean (not the best Korea kind of
Koreans)

~~~
pahn
Internet in Germany is abysmal, and not only in the countryside. I live in
Berlin, our capital. I can't work from my studio since internet is too slow
there. I know whole companies having moved their offices to different
districts because they did not get sufficient internet. At the place I am
currently at, I have LTE and officially it's listed to be in the highest
category in terms of speed: I have about 1 mbit/s download. Some base station
seems to be broke, but that is the case for months, and I would not even know
where to complain about this. I’m actually only writing this while waiting for
my software to update, so I can finally start doing something. And again, this
is central Berlin, not somewhere remote.

For the "why?": in 2013 our chancellor Merkel said (on the NSA scandal) "Das
Internet ist für uns alle Neuland." which translates to "The internet is
unchartered territories for all of us." – in 2013! As far as I know, they only
have Wifi in the Bundestag (the parliament) for like two or three years, and I
would not be surprised, if most of our politicians still read their emails
printed out on paper. Seriously, it is that bad. Germany is in the stone age
in this regard.

~~~
BucketsMcG
It's bad, but it's not universally bad. I'm in Berlin and have 400MB/S at home
But our apartment was built in 2011, so that might have something to do with
it.

------
tpmx
Those stories about how Kohl messed up the "future of Internet in Germany
forever" by going for his buddy's copper instead of fiber in the late 90s
never made sense to me. How about just trying again instead of just giving up?

a) Germany has a very high population density (232 people per km^2)

b) Germany is kind of rich

These two factors makes me think there is something else at play. (Germany
would be able to afford doing it all over again, but right this time.)

And then there is this - wow, lack of GSM coverage in such a densely populated
country?

In my experience this would would only be explained by systematic
incompetence, systematic corruption or a combination of the two.

~~~
ysleepy
It is a problem, but not in the extent this article or people make it out to
be.

There are 3 nation wide 4G networks, every home has old landlines.

What _is_ a true problem however is the political unwillingness to force cell
providers to cover areas with very little population.

It is not economically useful to invest in very rural areas, if you would have
to invest 2x to go from 95% population coverage to 99% (numbers made up).

The conservative party (CDU) is "business friendly" to the persistent
detriment to quality of life of a majority of citizens in a lot of areas.

T-Mobile was part of the Deutsche Post when it was still a government
organization and it is still a big shareholder.

~~~
schmidp
If you travel through Germany it feels like huge problem to be honest.

My girlfriend lives in northern Germany and going around in Germany by train
is just a big waste of time, because most of the time you have 0 signal as
soon as you are outside of a city. For example traveling by train from Vienna
to Bremen takes around 8 hours, but I basically need to stop working as soon
as I cross into Germany. 0 Signal.

If you are in the Netherlands, Czech Republic or Austria and you cross into
Germany it's like traveling back in time. Very often you are lucky to have
some EDGE reception, while at the other side of the border you had high speed
LTE.

~~~
universa1
Traveling by ICE (German high-speed train) it feels like this has improved a
lot over the last years. I am traveling through Hamburg, Berlin to the south
in the direction of Munich and most of the time I have 4G coverage, even with
O2/Telefonica, the worst of the three providers coverage wise.

~~~
alexott
ICE is the worst transport, compared to the local lines that are now provided
by commercial companies - I'm not talking about being on time (it's a
fantasy), but Internet in the train itself in 2019th doesn't work at all. I
used it regularly in 2018th, and it was ok - I could use that time to write a
report in google docs, push some code, find information, etc. In 2019th, it
simply doesn't work - I gave up, and either tether from my phone (if there is
a signal), or just sit and read.

The coverage in Germany is really bad outside of the cities, area between
Kassel and Fulda, and then further to the south is just a black hole. But when
you enter into Austria on a train, you can say this just by seeing how fast
internet is in the train, and there is a strong mobile signal...

~~~
calaphos
Another issue on the third generation of ICE is that the windows have a
coating meant for blocking out heat which is also very good at blocking cell
signal. The provided wifi is done via external antennas and multiple carriers
and usually quit a bit better, however there are still long parts where it's
unavailable as well. Also quite limited at 200MB of volume.

------
mschuster91
A huge part of the reason is that the providers had to pay well over 50
billion € for the frequency licensing.

Back in the early 2000s finance minister Eichel wanted to achieve the
"schwarze null" (positive budget), and in attempting so, this idiot fucked up
digitalisation in Germany for _decades_ , as the providers had to take out
huge loans and had to re-pay them instead of being able to invest in building
out the networks or offer affordable services!

The problem is compounded by idiot NIMBYs believing that radiation is harmful
and causes cancer - in many of the total blackout regions it is local citizen
groups that _vocally_ protest against phone providers putting up masts for
years now (and there are no laws that give providers eminent domain rights or
other enforcement tools), and the recent 5g conspiracy theories have made the
situation even worse. Ironically the same people then complain why young
people leave and no one new moves there.

For the historical part, Heise has a decent chronology (that unfortunately
lacks any mention of Eichel or political dumbness):
[https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/15-Jahre-UMTS-
Auktio...](https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/15-Jahre-UMTS-Auktion-Nach-
dem-grossen-Kater-2778571.html)

~~~
tormeh
>the providers had to take out huge loans and had to re-pay them instead of
being able to invest in building out the networks or offer affordable
services!

What's your alternative? Should the licenses have been given away to some
blessed companies? I hardly think you can fault the regulator for holding a
proper auction. The failing here was clearly on the companies' part as they
overestimated the impact UMTS would have. That the companies then have the
audacity to try to get the money back from the government is slightly shocking
- "plz socialize these losses lol".

The problem is clearly solvable. The government could just pay for the
coverage to be built out (payment pending operational towers, obviously).

~~~
mschuster91
> Should the licenses have been given away to some blessed companies?

Yes. Give them away for free, limited for a year and under condition of
network buildout, and have interested companies submit business plans. The
four with the best business plan win the frequencies. If they don't manage the
required buildout, the license gets revoked.

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
This is the correct answer, and again and as usual downvoted on HN. The reason
we have shitty coverage is due to _gasp_ economical incentives, who would have
thought. Same with DSL btw, but thats another story.

------
ed25519FUUU
This is rough, and honestly the only hope is probably something like starlink.
They’re not going to invest in 5g in places where 3g isn’t even profitable.

It’s a shame that there’s not “right to use” in the 900mhz or other cell
frequencies if no spectrum usage exists in the area. It seems a few people
could put together a small, internet-only cell provider.

------
rini17
Few years ago I visited a friend living in outskirts of Frankfurt (the richest
german city), quite effluent suburb still belonging to city proper. The cell
signal was weak and calls dropped all the time, apparently related to overhead
flights. Generally I've noticed problems and missing signal in trains outside
cities, too.

~~~
traceroute66
@rini17, you might want to edit your post. An "effluent" suburb is perhaps not
quite what you meant ! ;-)

~~~
paranoidrobot
I was wondering if it were perhaps a Kath & Kim (AU TV Show) reference.

It's one of their more notable/famous scenes:

    
    
        Kim: I want to be effluent, mum, effluent!
        Kath: You are effluent, Kim!
    
    

[https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Kath_%26_Kim](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Kath_%26_Kim)

------
avalys
If you rely solely on things you read online, you might think that the US
cellular infrastructure is a backward, antiquated, uncompetitive, monopolistic
disaster, and that the progressive and forward-thinking European societies
have done far better.

Yet the reality is, every time I go to Europe, I am struck by how irregular
and slow cellular reception is, even in major cities (I’ve been in Paris,
Frankfurt, Munich, Milan, Zurich in the past year). And yet today in the
United States, it’s basically a given that you will have a fast and reliable
4G connection available throughout the entire country, as long as you’re not
in literal wilderness.

~~~
nullspace
> And yet today in the United States, it’s basically a given that you will
> have a fast and reliable 4G connection available throughout the entire
> country, as long as you’re not in literal wilderness.

Don’t have a dog in this, but just wanted to say this is not at all true.
There are so many places nowhere near wilderness where you would struggle to
find a useable 4g connection.

(I’ve lived near some places like this in the northeast - I have to guess that
the avalys has not traveled around that much in the US)

~~~
microcolonel
I'll add my anecdote: last year I took a long bus journey two ways between
Hamilton, Ontario and the Philadelphia area. At one of the transfer stops,
Binghamton NY I think, I picked up a 14GB SIM card and activated it in my
phone, and it had signal almost the whole way to Philadelphia, I was watching
videos the whole way, and made two video calls. Population density on the east
is higher, but it's not _that_ high, cutting through Pennsylvania.

~~~
lathiat
It's pretty common for major roadways to have coverage but for that to
disappear once you're off them.

~~~
microcolonel
For what it's worth, most of the outbound route (but not the return) was
secondary motorways.

------
flas9sd
Couldn't regulation make it possible for suffering communities to do their own
equipment installation and then rent it out to a MVNO, is somebody privy to
(european) details if anybody did it? Desperate communities are able to pull
it off with their own fiber and then get an ISP on board, I wonder if
something similar is possible beyond fiber/wifi.

Germany is cataloging its "Funklöcher" at
[https://breitbandmessung.de/kartenansicht-
funkloch](https://breitbandmessung.de/kartenansicht-funkloch) \- if you zoom
in they get apparent along roads and populated spots if no 2G is showing - the
railway operator published its 2016 measurements along regional train tracks
[https://www.dbregio.de/db_regio/view/zukunft/wlan.shtml](https://www.dbregio.de/db_regio/view/zukunft/wlan.shtml)
\- on highspeed train tracks, coverage seems better.

An aside: the article opener is placed 25 km north of where Tesla builds its
Gigafactory. Harnekop was not merely an army base, but GDRs main nuclear
bunker. 15 km south of the Factory at Königs-Wusterhausen, Germanys took its
first steps in public radio broadcast more than 100 years ago with tall
transmission towers. It boggles my mind - radio broadcasts being "only" 100
years old and nowadays "everything is amazing and nobody is happy".

------
dustfinger
The title, and some of the context of the article, made me think of the 0G
Manifesto [1]. I realize that the article suggests that German citizens want
reliable bandwidth, and are not necessarily thinking in terms of a 0G
solution, despite the opening digression about radio enthusiasts. But wouldn't
it be liberating to have a fully decentralized mobi-net, hosted by everyone,
for everyone.

[1]:
[https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/pub/0G](https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/pub/0G)

------
vanous
What I do is that I turn on WiFi calling in my Android device. Works kind of
OK for the most time. Another solution would be Fento Cells, which provide
small BTS, getting the upstream connection via your internet. Yes, you pay for
your phone and for your internet bills, but, in such places you are happy if
this provides you with phone connection. I didn't find this mentioned in the
article.

------
pensatoio
> “But even the coverage of the current 4G network still isn’t sufficient,
> especially in rural areas,”

Ah yes, yet another wonderful example where 5G will excel.

