
Netflix, Long an AWS Customer, Tests Waters on Google Cloud - raleighm
https://www.theinformation.com/articles/netflix-long-an-aws-customer-tests-waters-on-google-cloud
======
skywhopper
Netflix has been "testing the waters" at GCP for years. And as their
infrastructure grows, relying on a single cloud provider would be a silly
limitation to put on themselves. Disaster-recovery/failover is a very natural
use case for multi-cloud deployments. Not to mention that for certain
workloads and patterns, GCP is cheaper and better. Netflix operates at a scale
well beyond what most AWS managed services can really address, and broad cloud
patterns like object storage, function-as-a-service, VMs, and networks, can be
abstracted away given enough resources, which Netflix surely has. Not to
mention that at Netflix's scale they have real leverage over cloud providers
and what services they offer. They would be stupid _not_ to be playing AWS and
GCP against each other for pricing (on which they already get a huge discount)
and features.

I'm guessing there's some project getting underway to move/duplicate some
subset of resources hosted in AWS on GCP. It's likely a huge project that
dwarfs most corporations entire cloud presence, but I'm guessing for Netflix
it's a small piece of a giant puzzle, and that the vast majority of their
operations are still centered at AWS and will be for years and years to come.

~~~
wiremine
You don't have to be Netflix to get AWS, GCP and MS to play against each on
pricing. I've seen a number of my clients build a prototype on each platforms,
and then use it to make final decision. Part of that final decision is having
the cloud vendors compete on price.

I personally haven't seen any massive price breaks, but there definitely is
room the margins.

~~~
awakeasleep
Really playing these companies against each other would mean dynamically
balancing your services across the providers based on pricing

~~~
wiremine
I've love to see some open source tools that manage this automagically for me.
:-)

It would also require an architecture that supports multiple interfaces.
Totally doable (the facade pattern comes to mind) but you'd want to calculate
the TCO to see it works out financially.

~~~
mrkurt
Shameless plug: we have an open source tool you can build stuff like this on.
It'll run any logic you can implement in JavaScript, we have people doing
things like "send traffic to backend with lowest latency" already, it'd be
pretty easy to pull in some API data to pick based on cost.

[https://github.com/superfly/fly](https://github.com/superfly/fly)

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KirinDave
Firstly: not very new. Hasn't Netflix been at this for a long time?

Secondly, everyone should be checking. Not only is Google doing a lot of
subsidization, but their services are really really good. My current employer
ended up being unable to use them but it's I acutely regret every day I'm
forced to build out things Google already has or deal with Amazon's
frustratingly antiquated ELB infrastructure.

~~~
Cshelton
AWS's ELB/ALB have been rock solid for us. Not sure what you are referring to
when you say 'antiquated infrastructure'?

~~~
cptskippy
Antiquated doesn't mean unstable or unusable. It means old fashioned. It's not
the new hotness.

~~~
KirinDave
I see such intense benefits from HTTP/2 end to end, I'm quite happy to be
called a shiny-chaser when my 50th and 99th drops so sharply.

Also, prefetch is absolutely incredible for webapps and I'm trying to get my
peers at my current employer to embrace it even if it's not well supported in
AWS.

~~~
web007
Have you tried termination at ELB with TCP to backend, or just plain TCP
passthrough all the way?

Also as mentioned elsewhere, ALB or NLB might do what you want, either working
the same way as regular ELB or via the same workarounds.

------
scarface74
There are a lot of comments saying that Netflix should run its own datacenter.

Adrian Cockcraft helped lead Netflix's effort to move to AWS and now is a VP
at AWS

[https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriancockcroft/](https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriancockcroft/)

He did an interview with Software Engineering Radio back in 2014 explaining
their motivation.

[http://www.se-radio.net/2014/12/episode-216-adrian-
cockcroft...](http://www.se-radio.net/2014/12/episode-216-adrian-cockcroft-on-
the-modern-cloud-based-platform/)

~~~
stingraycharles
> Adrian Cockcraft helped lead Netflix's effort to move to AWS and now is a VP
> at AWS.

I always get a bad taste in my mouth when I read things like that. Was it
really an objective choice, or was this AWS’ way of saying “thank you” ?

~~~
illumin8
You're ignoring the fact that he spent a few years at Battery Ventures in
between Netflix and AWS. Adrian is a well respected professional in his field,
has been around for decades, and nobody holds any negative perceptions of him.

He wasn't hired by AWS because he migrated datacenters to the cloud. He was
hired by AWS because he created this:
[https://netflix.github.io/](https://netflix.github.io/) \- Netflix's OSS,
which has allowed them to attract so much great talent, was a direct result of
Adrian's passionate open source advocacy. He's doing the same thing at AWS
now, and has already accomplished great things like open sourcing all of the
AWS documentation.

Disclaimer: work at AWS.

------
blackaspen
A lot of this article isn't that surprising -- especially the part where
they're keeping "Business Critical" data on GCP. Of course they are! Every
company needs a disaster recovery plan and in general shouldn't put their eggs
in one basket.

I'd be interested to see where the AI/ML frameworks differ though, and what
additional value one can extract using GCP versus AWS and at what
cost/presumptions.

------
simonebrunozzi
My prediction is that by 2020 Netflix will move a significant portion of their
IT to Google Cloud.

Why? Most of their architecture is microservices / linux containers /
serverless, and Google is simply way better positioned there (with Kubernetes
as their crown jewel). They will eventually win.

Source: no source, just my "expert" opinion (6 years at AWS, 2 at VMware's
cloud, currently CEO at a startup).

~~~
thebootstrapper
Isn't Netflix invested heavily on Mesos than k8s for their container
orchestration? for example Titus [https://medium.com/netflix-
techblog/tagged/titus](https://medium.com/netflix-techblog/tagged/titus) Fenzo
[https://github.com/Netflix/Fenzo](https://github.com/Netflix/Fenzo)

~~~
stingraycharles
While that might be the case, I wouldn’t be surprised if they let teams play
with k8s as well. Besides, one should always look at these choices
objectively; if Google + k8s is a better deal overall than AWS & Mesos, then
you shouldnt let your earlier investments cloud your judgement.

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assblaster
I think long term, Netflix needs redundancy, especially when the primary
supplier is a competitor in the same space.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
And the standing problem now is that their secondary supplier they're
considering is also a competitor in the same space. It's a wonder Netflix
isn't testing the waters against Azure, since Microsoft just closed their
video sales offerings down.

~~~
supernovae
Microsoft pulled out of the music space, they're still selling & renting
movies/shows and content services are a core feature of azure. Netflix uses
its own POPS for of its content delivery.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Ah yes, I mixed that up. :/ Though who rents movies from Microsoft? And they
don't have a subscription-based service for it, like both Amazon and Google
do.

~~~
supernovae
I rent movies and tv shows from Microsoft all the time. They have some great
sales.

------
thefourthchime
I just got back from NAB and one thing clear was that Google is aggressively
trying to get into the broadcast video space with their Cloud Offering.

------
forgot-my-pw
I would think if a business use more than 500 servers, it would make sense to
start considering having your own datacenter?

~~~
supernovae
I wouldn't do my own datacenter as in build out a building, but I would
certainly lease a cage and build out my own infrastructure at probably half
that count.

As far as I know, Netflix has POP's for content delivery in many carrier
facilities so it's not a pure cloud player by any means.

For the cost of 1 year for a single cloud server you can buy a 52 core dell
with 256gb ram and a few SSD's and have price/performance ratios that heavily
scale in your favor and with a scheduler like marathon, k8s, nomad you can
easily achieve elasticity in a private colo to a large degree without also
marrying yourself to cloud specifics and nothing would stop you from peering
with major cloud providers for seasonal elastic needs.

~~~
blackaspen
That's a good distinction. CoLo providers are pretty reasonably priced and
most of the larger ones are good at what they do.

There's a HUGE scale difference between a CoLo and your own -- as soon as you
start having to negotiate diesel supply contracts yourself things get crazy
fast.

~~~
supernovae
I would never roll my own unless I was of facebook/google size. Colo space is
abundant and affordable.

------
bhouston
I'm surprised they have thought to move some of their infrastructure in house.
The clearly have the scale where this would make sense, but it may be that AWS
and GCP provide them with such low special prices that it doesn't make
sense...

~~~
rockostrich
Their CDN is in-house [1]. They use cloud services for general computing.

[1] [https://media.netflix.com/en/company-blog/how-netflix-
works-...](https://media.netflix.com/en/company-blog/how-netflix-works-with-
isps-around-the-globe-to-deliver-a-great-viewing-experience)

------
manigandham
This is natural commodification of compute, especially with such large
deployments where there will be a lot of in-house tooling and apps that just
need raw compute and storage to run, no matter where it comes from.

The rise of containers and Kubernetes makes this even easier now. It'll be
interesting to see how the clouds differentiate beyond this as most managed
services are still rather underwhelming compared to the hype and are also
often beat by Kubernetes deployments if available.

------
Aissen
Looks like this is paywalled.

 _Edit_ : Since this is being downvoted, here is the proof:
[https://screenshots.firefox.com/bgD6FxWvQS4e0sB2/www.theinfo...](https://screenshots.firefox.com/bgD6FxWvQS4e0sB2/www.theinformation.com)

I have no issue with paywalled-content, it should just be noted that this is,
at least for some readers.

~~~
petercooper
I agree. If putting [video] on video links is a thing here, so should
[paywall] or similar since it's even more annoying than videos.

However, I'm a subscriber to The Information so here's a share link:
[https://go.theinformation.com/f2b133baedc57a8c](https://go.theinformation.com/f2b133baedc57a8c)
\- I think it requres an email, alas, but it's something if people are
desperate to read the story.

------
fishdaemon
lol, This a "press release" written by a PR firm employed by google

etflix, one of Amazon Web Services’ biggest customers, is expanding its use of
Google Cloud, AWS’s biggest rival, according to two people with knowledge of
the matter. The move, which hasn’t previously been reported, could portend a
shift in the balance of power in the cloud computing market

------
falcolas
This could also be titled "Netflix Ensures its AWS Discounts Continue"

AWS sales teams are quite responsive to threats of moving in terms of
continuing discounts. I've drawn up migration plans solely to use as leverage
against AWS for deep discounts in the past.

~~~
maxxxxx
Just curious: Can you state a range of possible discounts against list price?
The stuff I deal with is small fry but I always wonder how much cheaper the
big guys get their cloud services compared to us.

~~~
falcolas
Third hand knowledge - since I was not a part of the negotiations - fair
warning. The company I worked for was getting discounts in the 40-50% range.
It was the only way they could afford to use AWS, frankly, since it was all
static provisioning (i.e. no elasticity in the workload). They were also
approaching a petabyte of data stored in S3.

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coding123
This is one reason you don't want to go with specialized databases or queues.
If you used a managed Queue or Database, make sure you can get that same exact
Queue or Database on another cloud provider.

------
esturk
If more people start using GCP, then in the near future, GCP's prices will go
up. In contrast, AWS prices may come down to compete with GCP. And when they
reach close parity, things will begin to commoditize and get even cheaper
across the board. I see this being a good thing overall as an industry.

~~~
manigandham
Why would GCP prices go up?

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flamedoge
We might have bigger problems if AWS goes down

------
jacksmith21006
Really surprised this has not happen earlier.

------
greggarious
This is off topic, but the mention of my data going onto Google cloud made me
wonder: does Netflix share viewing histories?

I read their privacy policy but it was so mealy mouthed it's hard to make
heads or tails of to a non-lawyer.

~~~
TheIronYuppie
Disclosure: I work at Google Cloud on Kubeflow

I can't speak for Netflix's privacy policy, but, if your concern is with
Google, we never ever ever ever mix/merge Google customer data with customer
data. Like ever ever ever.

FWIW, we STRONGLY suggest (just to be doubly sure) that you encrypt at rest
and/or offer the option to use Customer Supplied Keys. Encrypt all the things!
[https://cloud.google.com/security/encryption-at-
rest/](https://cloud.google.com/security/encryption-at-rest/)

