
Workman Keyboard Layout (2010) - autocorr
https://workmanlayout.org/
======
trisiak
I too suffered from wrist pain and fatigue in the past. The experimentation
with different layouts helped a little but it felt like micro-optimization.
What actually resolved the problem was switching to an unorthodox ergonomic
keyboard where none of the keys required straining or unnecessary effort
(kinesis advantage, using a different one these days). Also, most common
problems were caused by placement of special keys (shift, ctrl, backspace,
enter) and that's not something colemak, dvorak or their friends seem to be
addressing.

I see analogy to guitar playing here. No matter how well you figure out finger
positioning for a complex passage, you won't be playing with ease unless your
elbow, wrist and spine are also positioned properly.

~~~
Okkef
This is so true!

There are so many quick wins to improve posture before the high-effort micro
optimization of changing layouts:

\- split the keyboard for better shoulder posture (eg ultimate hacking
keyboard but don't stop here)

\- Get a column staggered board with more thumb keys instead of row staggered
for better finger movement (ergodox or iris keyboard)

\- Get rid of the num row and limit movement for fingers to one key in any
direction using layers to simulate the missing keys (corne or kyria)

\- A sculpted and tented keyboard allows the arm to untwist. These keyboards
are dish shaped which moves keys closer to your fingers. Examples are the
kinesis, dactyl, or Tightyl (my own creation).

I think the sweet spot for most people is the column staggered split layout.

~~~
alpaca128
100% this.

I'm using an ergonomic keyboard with the two halves of the keys at a slight
angle and column-staggered design, and I can't imagine ever going back to a
normal keyboard. Being able to enter every symbol without even moving the
wrists is just too comfortable.

It's more expensive than any standard keyboard and I had to solder it myself,
but it's basically customised for my fingers. I'm not typing faster, but I
have much more fun doing it and fewer issues with my shoulders. I would say
it's a much more important upgrade than changing away from QWERTY(which
actually isn't that bad, there are a few false myths floating around about
it).

------
klodolph
An oversight in the layout, in my mind—the human hand is better at typing in
certain directions… the hands very naturally roll towards the center, but it
is less natural to rotate away from the center. This is… somewhat covered in
the article under SHU…

> It is much more efficient to ride the momentum of a single arm or wrist
> stroke and type a combo rather than just one key.

Try ASDF versus FDSA on a QWERTY layout. ASDF feels much more natural, doesn't
it?

So, I’m concerned about the sequences like TH in the Workman layout. It looks
like Workman is optimized more for minimum distance, and less for other
factors. I think this is what happens when you optimize for the metrics that
are easiest to measure! The thing about Dvorak is not just which keys press
the fingers, but how you alternate.

So if you write THE on Dvorak, your right hand naturally rolls TH using strong
fingers, and then you type E using the left. On Workman, you are rolling away
from center, which is less natural.

Some clumsier words in Dvorak: SPHINX. PIX are all left 2nd digit, but they
alternate with the right hand, to give the 2nd digit on the left time to move.

I may be biased. I switched to Dvorak in high school and it fixed my RSI.
Dvorak is also available everywhere. I can sit down at an unfamiliar computer
and change it to Dvorak within a minute. The alternation, to me, means that my
fingers have more time to move and can move more slowly and gently at the same
typing speed.

As a technical note—you should not be changing capslock in your layout like
this on Linux. The option to choose a keyboard layout like US QWERTY or US
Dvorak is a separate choice from the choice to map capslock to something else,
and they shouldn't be combined.

I’m also a bit surprised that the bottom row is ZXMCV. This is so close to
ZXCV… why not just use ZXCV?

~~~
trashcan
> Try ASDF versus FDSA on a QWERTY layout. ASDF feels much more natural,
> doesn't it?

It doesn't for me. Is it significantly more difficult/awkward? Maybe I'm used
to it from playing scales on piano?

~~~
1_player
Same, I can type FDSA 3x as fast than I can type ASDF with my left hand.

~~~
SamBam
Weird. I think any stereotypical image of a person drumming on the table with
boredom, their fingers roll from the pinkie to the index finger. Looking at
gifs on Google Images, I couldn't find any going the other way.

That makes me think that an inward roll is much more natural. I can type ASDF
almost as fast as I can type A by itself, quite literally. It's like a
drumroll.

1\.
[http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wuJ87jox608/VEHZPg9Fo7I/AAAAAAAAGg...](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wuJ87jox608/VEHZPg9Fo7I/AAAAAAAAGgE/H1hcOqJYSzU/s1600/20141017_Waiting_Patiently.gif)
2\.
[https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a7/d9/52/a7d952cccac40f9949bf...](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a7/d9/52/a7d952cccac40f9949bfd9dda968438f.gif)
2\. [https://www.cinemacats.com/wp-
content/uploads/gifs/finncatty...](https://www.cinemacats.com/wp-
content/uploads/gifs/finncattyfingers.gif) 3\.
[https://66.media.tumblr.com/33c922620e578affa28ad2b15634c870...](https://66.media.tumblr.com/33c922620e578affa28ad2b15634c870/tumblr_p2rwwuRhot1v30a5jo1_500.gifv)

------
shirro
A lot of keyboards optimize the wrong things at least as far as programming is
concerned. All the optimizations seem to focus on letters but most of the time
an editor or shell can auto complete keywords or identifiers. A ridiculous
number of symbols seem to be a very long way from the home keys on weak
fingers with modifiers required to access them. If I had to write huge amounts
of plain prose and had RSI I think I would just dictate it rather than try and
optimize the alpha layout.

I have been tempted to get a large ortho (lots of modifiers suck) and setup a
split qwerty with a heap of symbols in the center columns between them. I type
'"[]{}().=<> all day so I don't get why they should be marginalized. It is
like expecting an accountant to use the 1-0 row instead of a numpad.

~~~
lawn
I don't recommend it.

I too tried this with an Ergodox, but the keys you want to have your symbols
on are just so far away anyway. The center columns for example are quite far.

Instead I think it's better to use layers (holding down a key to change what
other keys do) and place symbols close to your home row. You can even have a
numpad right under your fingertips.

This is why ergonomic keyboard users are generally moving towards boards with
fewer keys, not more.

Look for QMK programmable keyboards where you can do this and much more.

~~~
jon-wood
As an example of how this works, here's my current keyboard layout (it tends
to change every few weeks as I find something else I want sitting on a layer):
[https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-
ez/layouts/xbLyp/la...](https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-
ez/layouts/xbLyp/latest/0)

Holding the key labelled "OSL1" will switch the layout to the "Symbols" tab.
The blue keys are dual-function, tapping them will enter the character on top,
holding will turn it into the modifier key below. Finally the Gaming layer,
toggled by the bottom right key on the keyboard, turns off all the special
mappings and turns it into a standard QWERTY keyboard, because my muscle
memory for game controls is too deeply entrenched to deal with in the middle
of a fight :)

------
bbx
I think typing efficiently on a keyboard is akin to playing the piano with
good technique.

I often see musicians playing piano (or keyboard synths) with improprer
technique. They move their wrist a lot, bend their finger backwards to apply
pressure, and tense their fingers by laying them flat. This causes stress in
the motion and fatigue over time.

All (or most) the pressing power should come from the tip and the phalanges
(?). You use each finger like its own little hammer. It requires a bit of
training but not much really. You just need to strengthen those tiny muscles
over time by consciously moving the finger only.

Of course the rest of the hand can move a bit but it shouldn’t tense any
muscle at all. The wrist should only hover around the piano/keyboard to move
closer to the target keys. And the rest of the arm and shoulder should of
course not move or tense at all.

If you can play the piano like this, you can type on a keyboard the same way.
No tension in the hand. Only a bit in the finger when it’s pressing, but none
otherwise. As a result, you’ll likely prefer like me keyboards with very low
travel. I have the Apple Mac keyboard which has a slight angle and very low
travel. It’s very easy to “hammer” the keys with low effort. I’ve never had
any wrist pain in 20 years of being both a musician and a developer.

~~~
robotmay
Similar experience here, and in fact I use a floating typing style more akin
to playing a piano instead of sitting on the home row. I actually did end up
with bad RSI for a year, however, caused by typing on a laptop, but I now
realise that was due to the extension of my arms.

For a while I used Workman on an Ergodox keyboard, and it was very nice. But I
learnt that I actually love QWERTY when I type in my floating style, and
ultimately moved back to it and a Topre keyboard instead (which is a nice mid-
point between non-mechanical and mechanical boards).

I've just taken the piano back up after 18 years, and so far don't seem to be
overly straining myself, so I'm hopefully on the right track with my
technique. Years of playing diatonic accordion have hopefully used many of the
same muscles!

------
lwb
Looks very interesting, but re-learning how to type is so painful, not to
mention devastating to my productivity at work, that I think I can only afford
to do it once in a lifetime...

I recently made the switch from QWERTY to Dvorak, during a 2 week period while
I was in between jobs, and it was one of the most frustrating things I've ever
done. Over a month later and I'm back up to a plodding 60 WPM (from a glorious
120 with QWERTY). Not to mention how shot my vim keybindings are!

Maybe if I eventually switch again it will be less painful, but the experience
has taught me that typing is almost 100% an exercise in muscle memory.

Anyway, my point is, I wish I could be the kind of person that could type
fluently in multiple keyboard layouts, if nothing else then just for the heck
of it, but I'm not sure I'll ever have the kind of time to make that happen.
Cool project though! There are certainly words and bigrams that are needlessly
hard to type in Dvorak.

~~~
dmix
I was curious about vim as well. I wonder if the defaults of vi are somehow
optimized for QWERTY.

This thread convinced me to try switching to Dvorak but I'm a bit scared after
reading your comment. It's not clear from your comment, did you switch back to
QWERTY or are you still giving it a shot?

~~~
cuddlybacon
> I wonder if the defaults of vi are somehow optimized for QWERTY.

Only hjkl for movement. Everything else is fine.

I still wouldn't make the switch again. You'd get more millage from spending
the ~2 weeks doing a bunch of speed typing practice with qwerty.

~~~
fho
The problem is that most of the typing in vim is based on muscle memory ...
thinking about it I have no idea what the keys I use for commenting out code.

I tried to learn Dvorak and later Neo ... Not being able to use Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V
like I was used to was annoying ... not being able to use vim anymore was the
reason I stayed with QWERTY (QWERTZ in German).

~~~
WorldMaker
That Ctrl key muscle memory is why Colemak made the explicit decision to leave
all of ZXCVB in the same place as QWERTY.

A lot of Vim is mnemonic and while relearning the muscle memory is tough,
relearning the mnemonics can be useful to reinforce what you know about Vim.

(Just maybe don't make the mistake I made at one point of trying a "remap the
world" configuration, learning entirely new mnemonics for classic operations,
and then realizing maybe too late I'd prefer a smaller remapped config.
Unlearning the wrong mnemonics is hard.)

------
thenoblesunfish
DON'T DO IT*

I absolutely love Workman. It's gorgeous. I spent months learning it, getting
fast with it. I even got the supercool matrix style keyboard, I was so into
it.

But now I use QWERTY, and I sold my matrix style keyboard. Why? 1\. Using the
standard is useful. Other people's computers use QWERTY. Terminals for typing
things in airports use QWERTY. When you have to do first aid stuff on your
system, you're not going to get to change the layout. 2\. QWERTY actually
isn't bad. Yes, the home row is largely wasted, but other than that, it's not
as ludicrous as you've been reading. For evidence, look up who the fastest
typists in the world are - plenty of them use QWERTY.

* if you think it's going to make you more efficient. If it's for fun, go for it. For me, it was worthwhile, because I got to forget QWERTY and re-learn with proper touch typing, not whatever 3-finger nonsense I was doing before.

~~~
noaccoun
It's not about being faster, but to not suffer from RSI. QWERTY forces your
hands to stay in abnormal position which can cause wrist pain. Ergonomic
layouts (and column-staggered or ortholinear keyboards) are designed with that
in mind.

~~~
thenoblesunfish
I should have said in my post that I have nothing to say about what you should
do if you have serious pain from typing - from the other posts here it sounds
like lots of things might help, including an ergonomic layout. I had minor
pain and I did find it went away with the switch, but in retrospect, that was
probably because I also focused on efficient touch-typing as I learned
Workman, so I improved my posture, I think. I feel as comfortable typing now
with QWERTY as I did with Workman.

------
resu_nimda
Keyboard layouts are incredibly fascinating. For the amount of typing that is
done today it feels like we are collectively still in the Dark Ages of textual
input.

A while ago on HN there was link to a talk from a stenographer (the people who
do court reporting and other live transcription). They achieve the highest WPM
by using a smaller keyboard and pressing "chords" of multiple keys at the same
time, which map to sounds or words. Over time each individual customizes their
"dictionary" to meet their usage/needs.

From there it's easy to imagine a future where children are given devices that
fit their hands like gloves or wii-motes that convert motions to text, with a
system that adapts and grows with them over time.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
One argument goes: Stenographers need to optimise for input speed, almost
everyone else doesn’t have that requirement.

Another argument goes: we don’t know what creativity might be enabled if
everyone had that option / ability.

I’ve always thought fingertip and finger joint implants would make good
contacts for chord-like input. Ideas are cheap though.

~~~
resu_nimda
_Stenographers need to optimise for input speed, almost everyone else doesn’t
have that requirement._

Right, max WPM isn't necessarily everything (though it's a pretty good proxy
for overall effectiveness of the tool), what's more interesting is the way the
device can adapt to the user. The programmers complaining about the symbol
keys could create mappings that make those easier/more natural (combined with
a device with a more ergonomic form factor). Technically you can kind of do
this with a regular keyboard via macros/expansions/remapping but it would work
a lot better if the with a device that was designed with that in mind.

------
thanhhaimai
For people looking to try a new layout, I recommend a Carpalx optimized
layout. They have very detailed analysis on the layout:

[http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization](http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization)

I've been using it on my Kinesis for a while, and it's totally worth it:

[https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/ki...](https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/kinesis/keymaps/carpalx/readme.md)

~~~
clarry
> and it's totally worth it

How would you characterise it? Speed, comfort, typo rate, something else?

What layout(s) did you touch type on before carpalx?

I might be interested in switching (after 15 years of increasingly customized
dvorak).

~~~
daffy
I've been using qgmlwb for 4 years or so. It's difficult to compare with
qwerty, since I didn't type properly before, but it feels pretty comfortable
and effortless. I feel like my right hand is overused, but I doubt it has
anything to do with the layout, I just don't like using my right pinky; or,
rather, it doesn't like to be used.

------
mmlkrx
A few years ago I took the plunge and started learning Colemak after extensive
typing left me with pain in my hands. I haven't had any typing related issues
since so personally I can recommend learning an alternative keyboard layout
(whether that be Workman, Dvorak, Colemak, or other).

Using qwerty on other people's computers has never been an issue since I use
my own machine most of the time. I do have to look at the keyboard when typing
qwerty but it's quick enough so I don't really mind.

If you're curious what it feels like to type Colemak, I wrote a small app a
few years ago which simulates Colemak for someone on a qwerty keyboard:

[http://mmlkrx.github.io/colemak-typing-
simulator/](http://mmlkrx.github.io/colemak-typing-simulator/)

------
jarnagin
One thing that often goes unmentioned when I see discussions about these sorts
of alternate layouts is that, particularly for programmers, the keyboard isn’t
just a simple device for entering text, it’s the mechanism through which we
interact with our computing environment, and most tooling is either
specifically or unintentionally designed to enhance the productivity of people
typing in QWERTY. Whether it’s simple copy and paste, vim keybindings, shell
commands, etc., using these sorts of tools from other layouts often feels much
more tedious than it does in QWERTY. So I’d caution against adopting a new
layout naively, unless you’re also willing to accept that you may have to also
begin adapting your environment to your new layout in addition to learning the
new board.

~~~
toyg
To be honest I never have any problem with that sort of thing with Colemak in
terminals.

The only issue I have is in games, where WASM is a religion.

~~~
WorldMaker
As much as I hate rebinding WASD in every game ever (and no two games share
anything like a similar remap tool; every game's settings are a unique
snowflake), it does at least amuse me every time that Colemak's replacement is
WARS. It seems more appropriate for games, it spells out a vaguely appropriate
word and R for Reverse actually makes sense mnemonically. (Walk, Around,
Reverse, Sideways ;)

Though nearly universal support of Xbox gamepads and made me more of a gamepad
by default player, saving WASD remapping for rare cases.

------
jimmar
I'd love to see a rigorous analysis of whether this type of keyboard layout
really reduces repetitive stress injuries. The metrics presented are
interesting, but the reduced finger movement could be a bug rather than a
feature. Small micro-stretching by having to reach for keys could actually be
beneficial.

~~~
jacobsenscott
It would be very difficult to get enough people to switch layouts to do any
kind of study. But you can probably look to gaming, where they optimize the
layouts of the keys/gamepads and there's plenty of RSI. I think changing
keyboard layout is unlikely to have any benefit. Especially since you need to
spend an extra hour or two a day on typing drills to become productive. That
must offset any benefit.

~~~
toyg
Depends on your definition of “benefit”.

You can drop regular practice after a while, so the penalty on speed and
accuracy is effectively capped; while the benefit on wrist health is not,
because it will stay with you for life. Imho a month or so of lower
productivity is worth the long-term effects.

------
antigirl
I agree modifier keys are the devil. Laptop keyboards are not designed for
ergo at all.

I use an ergodox ez and have various layers. Layer for directional keys. Layer
for all my vscode shortcuts (you can do Marcos). Layer for symbols. Even a
layer to control mouse, however I don’t like or use this

I use thumb clusters for the most common modifiers like space, enter,
backspace, command

What’s great is that I can define alternative keys when the keys are pressed
down. So I use them to activate various layers

I also use auto shift feature so holding down a a key will get your the
shifted option. Great for gets Caps version etc

Here is what my layout looks like [https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-
ez/layouts/RlxdW/la...](https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-
ez/layouts/RlxdW/latest/0)

------
archseer
I'm using a similar layout (Norman) that was derived from the Workman
analysis.
[https://normanlayout.info/about.html](https://normanlayout.info/about.html)

It was a bit easier to learn because most of the keys are on the same finger
as on qwerty, but with the rows swapped. For me the biggest problem with using
an alternate layout is that the hjkl vim movement keys are scattered.

~~~
a-p-o
I consider my .vimrc-fu as only beginner, but can't you remap the keys so NIOH
act as HJKL?

~~~
Legogris
Which becomes pretty annoying if you regularly work over remote SSH sessions
to large number of hosts where you may not be the only person on a given user.

(You could have some local shorthand to copy over your vimrc and explicitly
start vim with a different copy, at which point you'll only have problems with
shared tmux/screen sessions)

------
smabie
> Try typing “The” with the T capitalized on Colemak and hopefully you’ll see
> what I mean. Try typing “The” with the T capitalized on Colemak and
> hopefully you’ll see what I mean

Why is he shifting with his right hand instead of his left? It seems obvious,
but maybe isn't: you should shift/ctrl with the opposite hand that is going to
type the letter.

~~~
taneq
This is going back into the dark ages (we were taught on electric
typewriters!) but when I did a typing course I was told only ever to use my
left pinky for shift and right thumb for space.

~~~
smabie
Is there a rationale behind that?

~~~
taneq
Not one that I'm aware of, and a quick check of modern online typing resources
doesn't share the same bias. I guess it was either the teacher's preference or
something she was taught in typewriter school.

~~~
toyg
I think “in the dark ages” it was more common to end up using keyboards with
only one Shift key - think “nuclear reactor control panel” and stuff like
that. So it probably made sense to bend touchtyping theory for practical
purposes when preparing kids.

------
explorigin
I've been using Workman for 5 years now and it has been wonderful for reduced
stress. The difference between QWERTY and workman has been so dramatic that I
haven't needed to take any additional steps at managing forearm/wrist stress.

People seem to pontificate about micro-optimizations but the fact is that
you're reducing your overall motion of typing by more than half. An ergo
keyboard is another way to do that but you still have awkward motions.

Everyone has different sized hands. My fingers are a bit short for my average
size. It works well for me.

~~~
thomastjeffery
I've been using workman for a few years, and using a keyboardio model01 for
about a year.

Both have given a similar and drastic increase to the comfort of typing.

------
stevev
A few years ago I was stuck between workman, norman and colemak. I decided to
go colemak for ease of transition.

Being a longtime qwerty typer, my hands came to favor a more left hand typing
ratio.

I later realized colemak tends to be more right hand. My qwerty wpm rate went
from avg 130 down to 80.

My hands feel more comfortable typing colemak for long durations compared to
qwerty.

The placement of the letter H and E didn’t really bothered me. I’ve since
picked up a modified version of colemak that fixes some of the short comings
of colemak.

Maybe one day I’ll pick up workman due to having a more even left/right hand
distribution.

~~~
thomastjeffery
I was in the same position, and picked workman.

In the end, portability didn't matter, because I can just use my programmable
keyboard everywhere.

------
mozey
Instead of using an alternate keyboard layout, I found the alternative finger
positioning described here works great for me:
[https://typingsoft.com/typing.htm](https://typingsoft.com/typing.htm) The
trick is to keep you wrists straight

~~~
SeriousM
Since I (was) a gamer my left hand rests on WASD. It's just a natural position
for me :)

------
neves
Very nice work, I'd like to see the result not with books, but with
programming languages.

The problem is but you loose a very valuable thing: the ability to use any
keyboard. You won't be able to pair program. You'll be very slow when using
your mother's computer. The ability to use any keyboard is more valuable than
increasing your WPS.

~~~
snazz
Some people are able to use two keyboard layouts fairly well so long as they
practice both. Having and using a traditional keyboard layout on a laptop in
addition to your heavily-customized desktop setup is a good way to do both.

------
unwoundmouse
This is dope, I love how the author took a rigorous approach towards analyzing
how much effort could be saved through this keyboard

~~~
lmilcin
Well, you are going to spend all the saved effort in ensuring you have the
layout working everywhere.

I am contractor, most of the time working on corporate PC. I use dvorak and it
is already a huge PITA to explain to yet another corporate drone I need to be
able to set up my own keyboard layout. Windows does not have Dvorak layout
with polish accents so I have to either use my own driver or, more likely,
write without polish accents.

Another problem is that Windows can have different keyboard layout when
logging in and different when unlocking the machine which might cause
additional login failures. Some applications try to be smart (which rarely
works) and control keyboard layout. At one bank the remote desktop app would
switch keyboard layout periodically (like every 5 minutes) depending on my
locale settings.

So this is with Dvorak, which is popular enough. Try with a completely unknown
layout and you are pretty much screwed if you ever need to be able to use
computer that is not your own.

~~~
thomastjeffery
This is why I just bring my keyboard everywhere. I get everything I want
without inconveniencing anyone else.

I've considered building something extremely small like a Planck just for the
extra portability.

~~~
lmilcin
I am currently building a keyboard from scratch. Will have matrix
(ortholinear) layout and will be running my completely custom controller
software so that I can play with the mappings and functionality to my heart's
desire. In particular I was thinking about putting sd card slot where I could
put steno dictionary and have steno built in the keyboard. Mainly because I
typically work on some high sec corporate computers where I am unable to
install any custom software.

~~~
thomastjeffery
That's a neat idea.

------
iimblack
I'm going on paternity leave soon and hoping to use the opportunity to learn a
new keyboard layout but I'm having a tough time picking which one to learn.
I've already got an ergonomic keyboard (Iris) but I still hate the feeling of
querty's layout. I run into so many words that just feel bad to type.

I think I've narrowed it down to two options (but I'm open to suggestions):
Colemak mod-DH and Dvorak. They both take pretty different approaches that
both seem to have merit. I like the ubiquity of Dvorak but I don't really
predict it'll be difficult for me to get Colemak on any computer I use. Dvorak
seems great but the placement of L and S seem very awkward to me. Colemak mod-
DH seems to make more sense but I'm skeptical of the promise of finger rolls.

~~~
thomastjeffery
When I was at this stage, I tried dvorak, colemak, workman, and norman.

I got sick of typing ls -l with my pinky, so I decided against Dvorak.

I really liked the feel of digraphs in workman and norman.

In the end, I decided I didn't like the h placement in Norman.

After typing with workman for a few years, I'm very glad I learned. Every time
I type, I am reminded how much more comfortable it is.

I would recommend you look at what's available, and choose whatever one you
like best.

If you are on the fence about two or three, just start learning all of them,
and drop the ones you don't like.

------
deckiedan
I've been using this for a few years now. I deliberately only used it on a
kinesis advantage (and typematrix I tried out for a while - lack of
ergonomically placed modifier keys killed me though...). I deliberately use
QWERTY on laptops and so on, so my fingers retain some memory of that and let
me switch back and forth easily.

It took a while to get fast enough to be productive - it's a pain switching
layouts.

The nice thing about using a kinesis advantage is that as it re-maps the keys
in the keyboard, the computer isn't aware of keyboard mapping at all.

When I was trying out things like the typematrix or a MS keyboard that
required drivers etc, it was always a pain getting things like BIOS passwords,
login screens, etc. to work reliably.

------
gerhardhaering
I use the Neo layout since 2013. In my optinion, it is optimized for the
German language and for programming. I really love it.

On Linux this worked perfectly for me, but on Macs there are some (Electron?)
applications which have their own idea of keybindings. Notably MS Teams. They
have their own idea of keybindings and assume some kind of quertz layout.
Which using neo makes typing a questionmark, which works using "layer 3 key"
(caps lock) and what is "h" on querty impossible. So I end up mostly just
typing :question in chat, which produces a questionmark emoticon. Talk about
workarounds. Oh yeah, it does not work because Teams opens the "help" window
instead.

------
Okkef
Learning a new layout takes months of training. If you want to improve
ergonomics, I would take the following steps;

1\. Get as split keyboard for better shoulder posture (ultimate hacking
keyboard)

2\. Get a column staggered board instead of row staggered for better finger
movement and more thumb keys (ergodox or iris keyboard)

3\. Get rid of the num row and limit movement for fingers to one key in any
direction using layers to simulate the missing keys (corne or kyria)

4\. A sculpted and tented keyboard which allows the arm to untwist and is
shaped like a dish to move keys closer to your fingers like the kinesis,
dactyl, or Tightyl.

I got used to a kyria board in a week and it's helped hugely to improve my
back pain. Never going back to a non split keyboard!

~~~
risho
>Learning a new layout takes months of training.

This is completely false. If you go cold turkey and actually work at it you
can actually memorize a keyboard layout in a single afternoon, though you will
be slow as hell. If you keep at it without switching back you can get up to
like 30 wpm in a week. I did it with both colemak and beakl 15.

The problem isn't that it takes months, the problem is that it is incredibly
tedious and you have to really want to do it because you will hate your life
for the first couple of days.

~~~
Okkef
I'm not saying it's impossible or that you shouldn't do it. I'm saying it's
not the first thing you should improve.

If you compare switching to colemak the other improvements I listed, it's by
far the most effort. I am practicing colemak which mentally exhausts me a few
times a week and I'm only up to 18 wpm. Picking up a split keyboard will take
maybe an hour before you are back up to speed and you will gain the benefits
instantly.

When you're "back up to 30wpm after a week of training" you're still typing at
crippled speeds. It takes a significant amount of effort to learn a new
keyboard layout.

~~~
risho
I actually agreee. The conclusion I came to at the end of it was that learning
a new keyboard layout was basically a waste of time for most people for a
number of reasons. First of all there's no actual science that proves it's
ergonomic efficacy and if it does actually accomplish anything it's negligible
compared to other things you could do instead. On top of that it makes
interfacing with other people's computers an absolute nightmare. It also has
random bugs and quirks if you use software based implementations where it
randomly won't work in vnc or a virtual machine or whatever. I actually did it
just because I'm a technical masochist and it was fun, not because of some
delusion of actually fixing anything. I wound up switching back to qwerty in
the end.

As for picking up a split keyboard being easy, that isn't necessarily the case
depending on how messed up your typing is. You may need to relearn how to
properly type to use them. That said I would agree that you would get MUCH
more ergonomic benefits from switching to a split keyboard than you would from
learning a new keyboard layout with a fraction of the work required.

>When you're "back up to 30wpm after a week of training" you're still typing
at crippled speeds.

This definitely isn't true. You are actually just under the average typing
speed. Also if you are doing stuff like programming or many other things your
70+ wmp typing isn't actually doing anything for you because your are already
bottlenecked by thinking and other such things. Typing at 30wpm isn't nearly
as bad as you think it is. Also you continue to improve from there.

~~~
Okkef
I totally agree!

------
jansan
Only partly related, but if you are an aging programmer like me you should
consider using a vertical mouse. They are a total eyesore, but switching from
a normal mouse is almost seamless and they can dramatically reduce wrist
strain.

------
stormdennis
I used hunt and peck for years before learning to touch type. After four years
of touch type I'm still fairly crap. If I try to speed up i commonly get the
letter order wrong of two successive letters. I'm a lot better than hunt and
peck but I'm kind of disappointed. Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak
and can you expect big improvements? Also is it better for the keys
programmers use that others don't use so much like += etc

~~~
clarry
> Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big
> improvements?

Don't expect improvements in speed. For me it's all about comfort.

What's a major job for you? You can memorize the layout in a day, type
painfully slow for a couple days, start to feel rather comfortable in a week
or two tops (still likely slower, depending on how fast you were, but now
you're accustomed to the pace you type at on your new layout). Getting to the
80-100 WPM range takes weeks.

This, of course, assumes that you put in the effort (do drills and memorize
the layout first of all; keep doing drills daily, and _don 't switch back to
your old layout when it feels convenient_).

~~~
stormdennis
Thanks for the replies everyone. The sense I'm getting is there's are no magic
bullet keyboards out there and the best thing to do is stick with Qwerty and
take some lessons. BTW I've seen a kid touch typing one handed at a phenomenal
speed, the other hand being taken up with the mouse.

------
xedrac
I used Workman for a year back in 2013. I even submitted it for inclusion into
the Xorg project (perhaps a little prematurely).
[https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56998](https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56998)

Overall the layout felt great and relieved a lot of pain. I have two issues
with it. The first one is that vim keybindings are terrible. This could easily
be fixed by remapping keys in vim. The second issue is typing PO and OP
sequences. This wasn't really noticeable until I hit around 60-70 wpm, then it
stuck out like a sore thumb. If you don't typically type faster than that,
this probably isn't an issue.

I have also typed Colemak and Dvorak (current layout) at a high level. Colemak
was the the most painful for me as my index fingers just felt overloaded all
the time. Dvorak was also a little painful on the right pinky until it got
stronger. Dvorak was also the hardest of the three layouts to get used to.

All three are way better than Qwerty when it comes to typing comfort.

------
MrOxiMoron
I don't use my computer for writing epic novels, I'm using it to play games
(key placement doesn't matter) and programming. So how much easier/difference
is there for programming in different languages? I know for a fact that PHP
made the choice for the namespace separator based on availability on certain
keyboard layouts.

~~~
thomastjeffery
Hopefully you are writing comments and documentation.

You just wrote a whole paragraph on HN.

In my experience, there is a huge increase in comfort to be had.

------
zetalemur
Many years ago I too had pain in my wrists while doing lots of programming
work. For me the game changer was using Vim and mapping ESC to jj in both the
editor and the shell (via .inputrc). In fact I mostly use Vim because of the
provided ergonomics, the fast editing capabilities are just the cherry on the
cake.

In my opinion the main culprit are modifier keys (e.g. by default the shell
uses emacs bindings and you do a lot of ^A, ^E, ^R, etc.), but using jj mostly
solves the issue as you just have to reach for Ctrl when you require SIGINT or
copy/pasting in different environments that do not support vi keys. There are
also people that remap it to Caps-Lock, but I just don't like to use my pinky
that often.

Of course, everybody is different, but it makes sense to think about a setup
that suits you and your health.

~~~
thomastjeffery
Modifier keys suck on traditional keyboards.

Modifier keys are great when they are put under your thumbs.

~~~
zetalemur
It's true, I don't have any problem with using SPACE via left thumb, but I
have never encountered a layout or keyboard that let's me use the thumb for
modifier keys. Do you have an example?

~~~
thomastjeffery
I'm using a keyboardio Model 01
([https://shop.keyboard.io/](https://shop.keyboard.io/)) right now.

The thumb (and thumb knuckle) keys are my favorite design point, but the
entire design is excellent. They are out of stock, but the designs are open
source, and there are a lot of other great DIY designs around.

The Ergodox has thumb clusters similar to the Kinesis Advantage. There is also
the Dactyl, and many many more.

If you want to go down this rabbit hole, reddit is a good place to start:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/)

------
nwah1
Agree with Workman's criticism of Colemak, that the letters D and H are placed
sub-optimally.

I find moving O to reduce the use of the right pinky to be pointless, and
self-contradictory since A is not moved, and remains under the left pinky.

I also find the movement of C and V to be a non-starter for me.

It looks like the Norman layout tries to address the DH issue of Colemak
without messing up common shortcuts.

Although the DH issue is not enough for me to abandon Colemak. Probably
because I have large-ish hands and thus don't make any wrist movement when
typing HE, as the Workman author does.

Although, for those still on QWERTY, switching layouts in general is just not
worth it. Remap capslock to a backspace and be done with it. And maybe get an
ergonomic keyboard that doesn't mess too much with the placement of modifier
keys.

~~~
WorldMaker
DH was an intentional compromise that Colemak took to increase QWERTY
compatibility and Colemak documentation has always acknowledged that, so I
respect it isn't perfect, given trade-offs, but as Workman acknowledges
changing DH has a knock-on of changing a lot of things that I like about
Colemak.

I think Colemak also better optimized some trigraphs over Workman's digraph
focus.

That said, the difference between Workman/Norman/Colemak/Dvoarak is all rather
"slight" compared to the respective distance between Qwerty and any of them,
so some of these distinctions truly are "micro-optimizations". Most people
would do better to learn any of them than keep with QWERTY whether or not they
can tell which one micro-optimized better.

------
cryptos
I appreciate such efforts and consider QWERTY more or less a historical
accident. But how do you actually use these layouts? Do you pull the keys from
your keyboard and rearrange them physically? But what about notebooks then
where this is often not possible? Or do you train you brain to remember the
key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key?
But how do you _learn_ the layout then?

The longer I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that you have to
hammer the new layout into your head, since there are many situations, like
the keyboard of a colleague, where the physical layout wouldn't match. But
again: how to learn it efficiently without a lot of frustrating typing errors?

The best would be some kind of official standard and the introduction of a new
layout in schools.

~~~
shannongreen
I learnt Dvorak 6 years ago and now type exclusively in Dvorak on QWERTY
keyboards (currently a Microsoft Ergonomic). I have never used a keyboard with
a Dvorak printed key layout. I think my Dvorak typing speed is still slightly
slower than my old QWERTY max, but it feels much more comfortable typing for
long periods, and less effortful.

The printed keys don't mean much - to learn to touch type correctly you
shouldn't be looking at the keys anyway. I used a few typing games to start
and then switched cold turkey for a few activities that didn't require speed
(like responding to emails). It was, indeed, very frustrating.

That said, I don't recommend switching for most people, because you will get
much worse at QWERTY and when you occasionally need to type it (like on a
colleague's keyboard) you will appear incompetent; you will ruin your muscle
memory for keyboard shortcuts; and, because standard Dvorak is not great for
programming IMO due to the position of the [{ and }] keys. But now I'm in too
deep, and I know from experience how hard it is to switch so I don't want to
switch back!

~~~
dvdkhlng
I switched to Dovorak maybe more than 15 years ago. But I found it put too
much load an the pinky fingers (which already are pretty loaded doing enter,
backspace, shift). Also typing german is very awkward with Dvorak.

I then switched to NEO layout [1] which is optimized for german, programming
and english. I never regretted that. For programming, NEO is superb. It gives
you 3 different shift keys (each present two times on both halves of the
keyboard) thereby allowing a lot of punctuation and other special keys being
typed blindly without much moving of the hand.

Switching back to occasionally work on a qwerty keyboard was impossible at
first. But eventually I got used to that and I can now go forth and back and
adjust within minutes. Though qwerty typing speed and accuracy is much lower
than my NEO speed and using qwerty generally feels frustrating.

[1] [https://www.neo-layout.org/](https://www.neo-layout.org/)

------
camgunz
I had some pain in my right pinky and it made me realize tons of programming
symbols and Enter are over there. I’ve been strongly considering remapping
them somehow, though after wrapping my pinky and ring finger together for a
couple weeks I was fine.

~~~
clarry
I have sticky modifiers on the top alpha row on middle fingers. So E+JK give
me (), E+M, give me {}, E+UI give me [], E+H gives =. I+QWERTASDFGV give me
numbers, I+U gives & and so on.. (actually I use a custom dvorak, but it's
probably less confusing to explain this in terms of qwerty). Every symbol is
bound this way. Shifts are also sticky so I don't need to tense up my hand so
much for every capital letter.

I'm still using too much pinkies for ctrl, but I think only a new keyboard
will fix that (I need a proper thumb cluster, kinda like I had on my kinesis
advantage).

~~~
camgunz
Yeah I've been considering something like that; I'm pretty concerned with
training myself away from QWERTY, but if I had some additional custom binds
that seems workable.

------
larme
On normal keyboard layout you press so many keys with your pinky. I think it's
ridiculous.

I design my 40% keyboard (vortex core) layout[0] according to 3 principles:

1\. do not assign pinky to any key need you press and hold (ctrl, shift, alt,
etc.)

2\. do not assign pinky to any key you press frequently

3\. try to assign these keys to you thumb or bottom part of the palm
(hypothenar?)

So I assign space to the left palm, ctrl to the right palm, alt, cmd and shift
to the left thumb, pn (modifier to enter numbers/symbols) to the right thumb.

Enter is assigned to pn+n, esc is assigend to right pinky because I'm not a
vim user.

[0]: [https://imgz.org/ih6XktnR/](https://imgz.org/ih6XktnR/)

------
pluto9
I'm amazed that people are able to quickly "try out" new keyboard layouts. I'm
not a particularly good typist as it is. I feel like a new layout would take
months of infuriating practice and lost productivity to learn.

~~~
thomastjeffery
Successfully "trying out" does not involve proficiency.

I tried out several layouts before deciding I liked workman the most.

------
bentcorner
Slightly OT, but I just now realized that I rarely actually use my pinky
finger to type (particularly on the right). Left pinky: ctrl/shift (and
sometimes but not always "a"), Right pinky: enter and "/".

I usually shift my ring/middle finger around to compensate. If you asked me
yesterday if I touch type "correctly" I would have said yes, but apparently
I'm pretty sloppy with what fingers go where and my brain fills in the gaps
without me realizing it.

------
neves
My favorite keyboard improvement is Ten Key Less (TKL), and buying a separated
numpad. Your hand will be nearer the mouse. Less movement is more comfortable.

------
linsomniac
Here's a good PyCon presentation from someone who switched to voice input for
programming.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpv-Qb-
dB6g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpv-Qb-dB6g)

I hadn't thought about it until this thread, but one of the biggest barriers
for me using it was that we have a really quiet open office, but now that we
are WFH...

------
zck
> Typing ‘HE’ (in Colemak) forced the hand to make a very unnatural sideways
> twisting motion from the wrist and then back again.

Perhaps I have larger hands than the average, but I don't experience this. I
can even type DE with the index and middle finger of my right hand. Anyone
have video of how this is uncomfortable? I'm having trouble imagining it.

~~~
SamBam
I was stuck on that as well. For reference, this is typing the combination HK
on a Qwerty keyboard. I shift my index finger over for the H, and then use my
middle finger for the K. Watching my wrists, they don't move at all.

I thought the rest of the article and the approach very interesting and
rigorous, though, although I thought the text-only effort results of all the
different books impossible to grok as text, and would have appreciated a
simple chart.

------
bonestamp2
I use a modified Pok3r layout and dumping the caps-lock in favor of another
modifier is one of the best keyboard hacks.

------
xupybd
I'd really love to see some serious work go into studying keyboard layouts to
see if they actually make the differences claimed.

Not that I'm sceptical more that I'd like to be able to quantify the
difference they are worth. I'd love to try one out but not sure it's worth the
time investment.

~~~
thomastjeffery
There has been a lot of effort put into quantifying potential results.

At the end of the day, workman is much more _comfortable_ , and that makes me
happy.

------
Psychlist
For people who write code rather than novels it would be really handy to see a
corpus from github or somewhere.

------
mcv
Cool idea. "Database" is sadly still a primarily left-handed word, but I
understand that's because the goal is not to change anything about querty that
doesn't need to be changed. I think moving the 'e' to the right is a good
idea.

------
JoeAltmaier
Interesting. But perhaps similar to re-inventing spats to use plastic instead
of celluloid - too little, too late. Perhaps more useful to work out making
thumb-typing on a phone better.

------
Quequau
As enraging as I find switching back and forth between English and German
keyboards, I fear I just don't have the emotional fortitude for something like
this.

------
foolfoolz
interesting this was explicitly designed for programming but the travel tests
were for books. reproducing some open source program seems more relevant

------
waynesonfire
been using dvorak for 15 years and i'd do it again in a heartbeat. so smooth.

------
asmosoinio
This article is from (2010)

~~~
risho
are keyboard layouts like a time sensitive matter? qwerty is from the 1800's
and dvorak is from the 30's. By comparison this article came out yesterday.

~~~
asmosoinio
Not really - but I thought this was something new when reading the article.

------
thought_alarm
First you have to get rid of the absurd Euro/ISO keyboard layout.
[http://i.stack.imgur.com/j4xYE.jpg](http://i.stack.imgur.com/j4xYE.jpg)

Only then can we talk about moving the vowel keys.

------
edoo
Or get a gyro ball and avoid the wrist problems altogether.

------
sk0g
Is it just me or is it missing arrows entirely?

~~~
lmilcin
Not all keyboard layouts use arrows.

Long time ago keyboards did not have arrows. Nowadays, some keyboards use
function key to switch some keys to their alternative function, including
arrows. This is true especially with 40% keyboards where there is just no real
estate for arrows and to some extent with 60% keyboards.

~~~
earthboundkid
Vi was made for a keyboard without arrows, which is why it has hjkl instead.

~~~
jaak
Actually, vi was made for a keyboard with arrow keys - the arrow keys were
non-dedicated and used the HJKL keys.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_keys#HJKL_keys](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_keys#HJKL_keys)

------
gillesjacobs
I have done testing of my own on personalized keyboard lay-out by keylogging
myself. My initial interest in keyboard layouts was piqued years ago with the
CarpalX project [1], so I started keylogging myself in 2017. I am a
researcher, programmer, sysadmin, and work in a multilingual environment
(Python, English, Dutch, R, Java, French, Spanish), so I was expecting some
interesting results.

I put 3 years worth of keylogs into Patorjk's Keyboard Analyzer app [2] used
by OP (after sanitizing passwords and personal identification). Here are my
personal results:

    
    
      Programmer Colemak      59.06
      Colemak                 59.02
      CarpalxQ                56.02
      Workman                 57.43
      Workman for Programmers 57.16
      Simplified Dvorak       54.71
      Programmer Dvorak       53.96
      personalized            53.53
      QWERTY                  46.61
      AZERTY                  44.83
    

I did build an Ergodox but never got around to learning it, so here are
Ergodox scores:

    
    
      Colemak Thumbshift      63.12
      Ergodox/Colemak/Cub     60.93
      Ergodox Colemak v1      60.13
      Ergodox/Workman/Cub     59.27
      Ergodox Colemak v2      57.07
    

For me, Colemak variations seem to come on top over Workman and CarpalX in
this test. Note that Patorjk's Keyboard Analyzer [2] does not have a ergonomic
typing effort modeled in as much detail as the CarpalX model which takes into
account full stroke path. It is very much possible that CarpalX will come out
in front of Colemak using the more CarpalX model. Other interesting layouts
can be found at the Keyboard-Design.com ranking [3] which uses [2] on
different (programming) language inputs. For me personally, I will start
learning Programmer Colemak on my regular keyboard and Colemak Thumbshift on
my Ergodox.

OP argues against Colemak based on added typing effort due to horizontal and
diagonal stretching. If Workman is better in this regard, PatorJ's Keyboard
Analyzer [2] as not as good a tool as CarpalX to reflect this advantage.
CarpalX takes into account finger travel distance, hand/finger/row penalties
and stroke path. PatorJ's tool does not model stroke path or allows for
penalization of horizontal and diagonal movement. I would like to have seen an
analysis using CarpalX as that could have strengthened your argument for
Workman. Additionally, OP puts a lot of focus on the common monolingual
English keystrokes (HE) which is not necessarily relevant for multilingual
programmers.

A personalized approach is necessary because most standard lay-outs are based
on monolingual text datasets of books as is in the OP. Everyday typing of an
IT-professional does not resemble natural language text in the slightest, so
actual keylog input is required for any layout analysis IMHO.

Overall, I very much appreciate the effort OP put into Workman, it looks
great! It seems Workman is a serious contender for first place alongside
Colemak and CarpalX.

1\. [http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx](http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx)

2\. [http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer](http://patorjk.com/keyboard-
layout-analyzer)

3\. [https://www.keyboard-design.com/best-layouts-by-average-
rank...](https://www.keyboard-design.com/best-layouts-by-average-ranking.html)

~~~
thomastjeffery
Thanks for sharing your stats. It's really neat to see that context.

I've been using workman for a few years. I chose it over colemak and norman
after trying them all and picking the one I enjoy the most.

~~~
gillesjacobs
I am not writing off Workman or CarpalX just yet. Will try them all three and
settle on one. They're close enough in score.

------
new_realist
I use BEAKL v15.

