
Ecstasy as a Remedy for PTSD? You Probably Have Some Questions - anythingnonidin
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/us/ecstasy-molly-ptsd-mdma.html
======
tomhoward
> “I was able to forgive myself. It was like a clean sweep.”

I think this is the overlooked key point in these discussions of MDMA or other
treatments as remedies for PTSD: it brings on the ability to see yourself and
your actions with compassion and forgiveness that is not present in baseline
consciousness.

For my own healing of trauma (which did not involve the use of MDMA), that has
been the key. And letting go of deep resentment towards others (e.g., parents,
former partners, lost friends) happened pretty much immediately, once I was
able to have self-compassion and forgive myself.

As promising as the research around MDMA might be, it's still likely to be a
long time before it has clinical and legal approval in most jurisdictions and
even then it may not be the be-all-and-end-all for emotional healing.

Whereas there are techniques for bringing on self-forgiveness that are already
available, though not yet accepted in the mainstream.

Hopefully that may start to change soon.

~~~
technotony
> Whereas there are techniques for bringing on self-forgiveness that are
> already available, though not yet accepted in the mainstream.

Could you comment on what those are?

~~~
tomhoward
There's a bunch of emotional exercises/practices that enable you to connect
with unresolved traumas held in the subconscious mind, learn about what they
are and how they're affecting you, and let them go. Which as far as I know is
what MDMA enables, but they don't require you to have access to MDMA, and are
safer for frequent long-term use. The practices all work in different ways
too, so I'm sure they enable you to have experiences/insights that are quite
different to what MDMA activates.

Some practices I'm familiar with include Holotropic Breathwork (developed by
Psychiatrist Stan Grof, who was a pioneer of research into LSD before it was
banned), EFT/tapping and Milton Erickson Hypnosis. A friend of mine frequently
does Family Constellations workshops and finds them highly beneficial, but I
haven't tried that yet.

There are others that are more left-field than I'm willing to go into here but
you're welcome to email me (address in profile) if you want to know more.

~~~
ryanmarsh
A religious based modality for this is called Theophostic Prayer.

Careful if you google it. You'll find some bizarre stuff that had nothing to
do with my treatment. It's really weird when you read about something that
changed your life dramatically for the better and others trash it and talk
about it using a description that sounds nothing like your reality. Really
makes one wonder about other things getting blasted publicly.

~~~
bostonvaulter2
Do you have a link that does explain what you went through?

~~~
ryanmarsh
Unfortunately no.

------
stef25
The narrative is that an illegal party drug seems to have potential as a
psychiatric tool, but this is was it was _before_ it became a party drug.

The disinhibition and mental clarity allows people to open up, "break out of
their shell" and talk honestly about themselves and their feelings. And it
does this immediately and with ease. It's really something special.

From Wikipedia:

Shulgin was impressed with the drug's disinhibiting effects and thought it
could be useful in therapy. Believing MDMA allowed users to strip away habits
and perceive the world clearly, Shulgin called the drug "window". Shulgin
occasionally used MDMA for relaxation, referring to it as "my low-calorie
martini", and gave the drug to friends, researchers, and others who he thought
could benefit from it. One such person was Leo Zeff, a psychotherapist who had
been known to use psychedelic substances in his practice. When he tried the
drug in 1977, Zeff was impressed with the effects of MDMA and came out of his
semi-retirement to promote its use in therapy. Over the following years, Zeff
traveled around the United States and occasionally to Europe, eventually
training an estimated four thousand psychotherapists in the therapeutic use of
MDMA. Zeff named the drug "Adam", believing it put users in a state of
primordial innocence.

------
jarmitage
If you think this is important, donate to MAPS! Yes they accept crypto.

[https://store.maps.org/np/clients/maps/donation.jsp?campaign...](https://store.maps.org/np/clients/maps/donation.jsp?campaign=11)

------
helloworld
It's interesting that both PTSD-suffering veterans described the benefit of
MDMA with the same words: "I was able to forgive myself."

Whether you call it conscience or superego, how we judge ourselves seems to be
important for mental health.

~~~
unfunco
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(psychology)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_\(psychology\))

Interestingly, in the documentary _Dirty Pictures_[0], and in the books PiHKAL
and TiHKAL, Ann Shulgin (widow of Alexander Shulgin, the chemist that re-
synthesised MDMA and re-introduced it to the world) talks a lot about the
shadow and her work as a therapist whilst working with MDMA shortly after it's
effects became known. MDMA was initially trialled by psychiatrists working
with the shadow.

[0]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SxjCE0f9_4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SxjCE0f9_4)

~~~
senorjazz
I've seen the documentary, but never realised her reference to the shadow was
more than just explaining why we can get into dark thought loops whilst on
psychedlics often times going over and over something (sometimes
inconsequential things) that raises our paranoia to terror levels.

Seems like I have some reading material to put off working until this
afternoon now :)

------
siruncledrew
I think part of the bad rep MDMA gets as a theraputic drug comes from street-
known MDMA not actually being pure MDMA. It’s often laced with ketamine or
some other drugs that give different effects than what’s being used in this
PTSD treatment.

~~~
Fnoord
Ketamine? Combined with MDMA and its analogues??? In which country? Do you
have links to drug reports / analysis?

~~~
meej
It's not a common adulterant, so your skepticism is warranted, but using the
advanced search at EcstasyData, I'm seeing about 6% of pills/substances
they've tested that had both MDMA and ketamine in them.

804 results for MDMA + anything else:
[https://www.ecstasydata.org/search.php?search_field=adv&name...](https://www.ecstasydata.org/search.php?search_field=adv&name=&field_test=&substance1=2012&substance2=-3&id=&color=&colorexact=0&city=&source=&m1=&y1=&m2=&y2=&state=&country=&sold_as_ecstasy=yes)

50 results for MDMA + ketamine:
[https://www.ecstasydata.org/search.php?search_field=adv&name...](https://www.ecstasydata.org/search.php?search_field=adv&name=&field_test=&substance1=2012&substance2=79&id=&color=&colorexact=0&city=&source=&m1=&y1=&m2=&y2=&state=&country=&sold_as_ecstasy=yes)

~~~
Fnoord
Hmm, would be interesting to have some kind of graphs with this to see where
in the world these pop up most.

------
zakum1
Is the ability to “forgive oneself” sustainable? Does the initial “help” from
MDMA empower the person to learn to permanently see themselves and their
experiences in a new way? As someone who believes that developing ourselves
comes from the traditional hard work of life and spiritual development (or
whatever you may call it) with no quick fixes, I find the prospect
surprisingly compelling.

~~~
1000units
This is the difficult truth. But outright it's like telling a severely
depressed 120 lb man who can barely get out of bed he needs to start
weightlifting, so we get these threads and these ideas.

Spiritual health is literally the most important need of any intelligent
human, and yet it's incredibly hard to achieve in our current culture. We're a
nation of drugged out, traumatized zombies starving for answers, and the
loudest voices belong to snakes and idiots. It's an absolute disaster.

The first baby step of a solution is allowing and encouraging people to
discover and to speak plainly about what is Good, what is Beauty, what are our
obligations to ourselves and others, and why.

But everyone's brains are fried. They've simply accepted the ambient dull-
minded morality seeped into our cultural fabric by a host of unmoral forces
(and a few immoral), and the process of spiritual development for many has
become a weakly cathartic but useless raging at the failure of their community
to succeed within this framework. Then they're told: when this exhausts you,
reach for the pill bottle.

It's incredibly sad.

~~~
dqpb
> _Spiritual health is literally the most important need of any intelligent
> human_

Tell that to someone who is starving.

Hierarchy of needs:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs)

~~~
1000units
Explain hunger strikes.

~~~
dqpb
Hunger strikes are a form of protest to affect social or political change.
Social and political issues are often slow, endemic, and creeping. Cleverly,
hunger strikes transform these issues into something that is visual, easily
empathized with, and quickly escalating.

Indeed, this illustrates quite well that physiological needs are the most
important needs - if they were't, then they couldn't serve as a tool to
escalate the stakes of the protest.

If spiritual needs were more important, you would have spirit strikes instead
of hunger strikes.

~~~
1000units
What does a hunger strike make happen in people's heads that compels them? Do
they think "Oh, these poor strikers will starve to death, and that is too
terrible to allow." or "This striker's conviction is genuine and powerful, I
should listen and be receptive to what he has to say."

It is the content of their souls that allows them to do what they do and this
recognition that makes their demonstration compelling.

By the way, spirit strikes are very much a thing, and they are far uglier than
hunger strikes.

------
baby
By the way. I believe everyone should try MDMA at least once in their lives.
Do it with your friends, with your loved ones, etc. If it wasn’t so
stigmatized I would have already bought some for my parents.

~~~
ridewinter
Try it once. The salient point about drugs like ecstasy is that they don’t
actually add to the chemicals to your brain that make you feel good - instead
they release the reserves in your brain all at once. Those incredible highs
are all of your nice feelings for the next couple weeks getting released at
once. It’s a trade off I don’t want to make.

~~~
SirensOfTitan
> Those incredible highs are all of your nice feelings for the next couple
> weeks getting released at once.

This is a massive simplification. It represents the pop-psych nonsense like
serotonin is the happiness molecule. It really depends. Mood and brain
chemistry are much more complex than: serotonin, dopamine, acetylcholine,
norepinephrine

My anecdata: most of my friends have a down day 1-2 days after, then they’re
fine. A couple have a really hard down day, others don’t have comedowns. This
comment is irresponsible in that it confuses anecdote for data and uses a very
inaccurate metaphor.

Good advice here is: if you want to try MDMA:

1\. Test your product. Almost none of the MDMA on the streets is actually
MDMA. It’s usually bath salts or something else unsavory

2\. Dose correctly. MDMA is dosed generally based on body weight. If you don’t
have the luxury of weighing you should probably take 75mg to 100mg.

3\. Spend some time during your experience grappling with things that have
bothered you lately. This is purely anecdotal, but this helps me with both the
comedown and helps me figure out difficult things I’ve recently had difficulty
with.

4\. Expect some sad feelings 1-2 days after, so if you can plan those days
around close friends in non stressful environments.

~~~
cc81
>Almost none of the MDMA on the streets is actually MDMA.

That is not really true. At least not in Europe. Real MDMA is incredibly
common.

~~~
okmokmz
By and large, most of the "ecstasy"/"MDMA" sold at the street level is a mix
of cheap research chemicals and amphetamines. I volunteered at a tent that
tested drugs at festivals, and for every 10 people that thought they had pure
MDMA maybe 1-2 in 10 tested positive for containing any MDMA

~~~
cr1895
This is not universally true, at least it is certainly false in the
Netherlands.

[https://energycontrol-international.org/wp-
content/uploads/2...](https://energycontrol-international.org/wp-
content/uploads/2016/04/Drug-Testing-in-Europe-Monitoring-Results.pdf)

See figure 7.

------
Fnoord
Its annoying the NYT used the term ecstasy (XTC) as that doesn't describe the
drug. The drug which would be considered as a remedy for PTSD, is MDMA and its
closely related counterparts (MDA, MDEA/MDE). These drugs are called
empathogens or entactogens [1].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathogen%E2%80%93entactogen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathogen%E2%80%93entactogen)

~~~
egypturnash
"3,4-Methyl​enedioxy​methamphetamine (MDMA),[note 1] commonly known as ecstasy
(E), is a psychoactive drug primarily used as a recreational drug." \-
Wikipedia[1]

1: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA)

Hail Eris.

------
simonsaidit
Mushrooms, mdma, lsd, ketamine are often praises as therapeutic but I’ve had
close relations with all of them and been in a culture where that belief is
there and seen so many scenarios it’s unbelievable. Yes they might have a
short lived effect but they are incredibly hard to manage. I advise everyone
to try once in their life but keep it at that and try to use the effect for
something... which might be the hard part. Today the only drug I believe is
fairly safe and has a much harder effect is Changa(dmt + Maoi) which might end
the need for all other drugs and help stress or bad thoughts Which it had to
me and over 70 people I took through it.

~~~
Fnoord
> which might end the need for all other drugs

There is no such thing as one drug which makes all other drugs redundant.

Disulfiram (brandname Antabus(e)) works well for alcohol addiction. Methadone
for heroin addiction. Bupropion (brandname Zyban) for smoking cessation.

As for DMT + MAOI (which I know as Ayahuasca), care should be taken when using
a MAOI. Most importantly it _must not_ be combined with a plethora of other
drugs and foods, but there are some additional sharp edges to take into
account beyond that.

I've only used Ayahuasca once recreationally. It was the most interesting
experience, compared to Psilocybin. They say that with MDMA, only your first
experience is magic. I've used it approx 10 times, and can attest to that.

I do _not_ recommend everyone should use this or any other drug once in their
life. From the drugs you mentioned, there's one which you didn't which is
relatively mild, safe, and that is Muscimol (found in A. Muscaria aka fly
agaric).

My advice is very simple and universal (caveat [1]): go to your doctor instead
of recreationally using drugs, and exhaust all options there. It was then,
through rough milling and various therapists, that I found out that I have
ASD. Which explained far, far more than any recreational drug usage I've had.
And I have had my take as the above might suggest. Of all the drugs I have
used, I feel marihuana was the most dangerous one because I had multiple
psychoses on that one.

[1] Though I do realise not everyone in the world has access to quality,
affordable healthcare

~~~
simonsaidit
Changa is much more intense but t less a strain on the body. Changa is smoked
and doesn’t work the same way although benefits are similar to ayahuasca but
no you do not risk cheese syndrome from the Maoi in the same way as ingested.
The literature is not big on the subject yet but dig and you will find. My
advice is uppersit stay away from most doctors or atleast research what they
are trying to do to you. Seen a lot of life’s ruined by them sadly. And yes
Changa is so strong you probably won’t feel the need for any cravings a while
alcohol sugar coffe weed and whatever doesn’t mean much on top of this
experience which you can probably live on the next 40 years. I don’t get my
ideas from only reading but first hand experience. Myself quit 15 years of
daily weed abuse from one day to the other. I don’t feel a need for any
substances anymore. Lots of people did similar after one and only one trip of
1 hour. Worked with alcohol and weed and stress and being an idiot from my
experience. It’s easy to go back to bad habbits but with this it’s also easy
not to. It’s about the mindset you ned in not the body’s reaction which will
ofcourse be there a while. And cook your own Changa the one you buy don’t have
enough active alkaloids and is made for profit.

------
projectramo
At the ever present risk of being downvoted: should we be able to chemically
forgive ourselves for anything/everything?

Aren’t there some things that are so terrible that we should continue to feel
guilty?

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Only if you want folks to suffer and have trouble being part of society.

I'll add that PTSD doesn't only happen to people that have done things - it
happens to folks that have been through some sort of trauma. Victims of child
abuse or spousal abuse, for example. Sometimes folks that have been in car
accidents, fires, and other such things. I know a person that is in inpatient
treatment right now because it got so bad... again. She's mostly in treatment
because the thought of her children going through a parental suicide made her
feel badly.

And I'll add this as well: Soldiers don't always have the real choice to do
things differently, especially in draft situations or if someone has been lied
to in recruitment (really common). And I'll add that forgiving oneself is not
the same as being OK with everything that happened, simply that the overriding
guilt doesn't own your life and affect everyone that you know. People change
but their past often doesn't (there are some exceptions, such as missed
information, but what you thought is still what you thought).

~~~
projectramo
Soldiers in particular seem to be a very polarizing example.

As a philosophical point, I am okay with non-soldier examples.

Does you argument still stand?

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Yes. Being a soldier shouldn't mean you suffer for the rest of your life to
the point that you cannot really participate in life. Not all soldiers who
wind up with PTSD have committed atrocities. You can be a medic and get PTSD.
A translator. And so on. At the same time, some of those folks that do
horrible things do not always wind up with PTSD.

Not only that, but such things take a toll on society. Their families suffer -
children, spouses, parents, siblings - and it is a drain on medical care. Why
would we not make it so folks can lead a better life?

I'm not even a supporter of much of what a military does. They war, and rarely
do the rebuilding or giving back to the community outside of a PR stunt. (NASA
gets a break here, they don't seem to be a warring segment). But that doesn't
mean the little folks on the ground need to suffer for life. I don't think
most folks are happy about the thing that gave them PTSD, but that's not what
the drug does. (Side note: I've taken this particular drug). It simply makes
it so you aren't caught up on it and can get back to living in the present.
That thing stops eating your brain and linking that thing to more innocent
things in every day life.

------
yahyaheee
Glad to see more research happening on this. The outcome of these studies is
very promising for people with treatment resistant PTSD. Support MAPS to help
continue this effort.

------
nopacience
One common thought under the influence of MDMA is:

The world could end now. Everything is perfectly fine.

------
egypturnash
> After taking the drug, the patient lies on a futon amid candles and fresh
> flowers, listening to music. Two therapists — one female, one male — sit at
> the patient’s side as guides. That session lasts eight hours.

My version was "lounging around under the stairs in a mostly-abandoned hotel
lobby late at night at a furry con, with two friends". It worked pretty well.
Still probably took about eight hours.

