
Our relationship with teeth is uneven, messy and grim - hecubus
https://www.economist.com/prospero/2018/05/16/our-relationship-with-teeth-is-uneven-messy-and-grim
======
elliottcarlson
I have had a long history of dental issues - I can blame so many things for
how they got to this state; severe substance abuse two decades ago,
homelessness, teeth grinding, GERD. The reality of it though, is that I let my
teeth get really bad, and ultimately they were too sensitive to properly take
care of - which caused so many more issues. I have spent so much money to
attempt to save them over the years, and finally came to the conclusion that
they were not worth saving due to the amount of neglect that I had caused
them. For years I have mumbled when I spoke to not cause attention to them,
and I rarely smiled for the same reasons.

Three days ago I had the remaining 12 teeth pulled and I am currently at home
adjusting to dentures - and around the new year I will be looking in to All-
on-4 implants. It's truly amazing how much better I already feel about myself
for just a few hours of work - and I look forward to the quality of life
improvements that I will have. Even with this relief though, there is
definitely tons of regrets on how I could let it get this far.

Take care of your teeth - it's worth it.

~~~
nextos
Taking care of teeth is important, but I feel we are misinformed in a number
of ways.

If you spend time reading the literature, you may reach the conclusion the
pros of getting fluoride don't outweigh the potential damage done to other
organs. Same goes for professional dental cleaning, it erodes enamel quickly,
but advantages are not very clear to me.

I think keeping the oral microbiome healthy is a much more fundamental step
towards true dental health. You want a healthy balance of bacteria, yeast and
phages. And you want them to be generating healthy metabolites. That's why I
emphasize a good toothbrush plus a good technique, pocket irrigation, calcium
salts, and probiotics. And a good diet.

~~~
fouc
I've been lucky with my oral microbiome.

37 years old. No cavities. No fillings. Brush my teeth once a day in the
morning most of my life. Use regular toothpaste. I prefer ultra soft brush,
and usually soften them up more with hot water.

The color of my teeth depends on my diet, when I was doing keto or slow carb,
it whitened them quite a bit.

~~~
j00pY
You are very lucky like my girlfriend in that respect. She cleans her teeth
twice a day and does minimal care and has one minor filling which was done a
couple of years ago.

I have always spent a long time cleaning and flossing my teeth and have lots
of minor repairs and fillings done over the years.

~~~
gpvos
I have had some cavities filled in the past, but somehow nowadays I can brush
twice a _week_ and haven't had any cavities for more than a decade. (I brush a
bit more often than that to prevent bad breath.)

------
everyone
Fun fact. Stone-age level tech people or hunter gatherers have _perfect_
teeth. Their teeth meet perfectly, they have no wisdom teeth issues for
example (in fact they just have more normal teeth than civilised people)

The reason is that our jaws are actually too small for our teeth. Their jaws
are the right size because the jaw grows to its correct size in response to
chewing when you are a baby. We dont chew enough as babies.

[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150204144653.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150204144653.htm)

~~~
Empact
Another major aspect of jaw development is tongue posture. Resting the tongue
on the roof of the mouth and breathing through your nose results in increased
jaw development, e.g. a broader palate, thanks to the bone's natural response
to give and grow under pressure.

I've been playing with this myself, thanks to discovering recently that I grew
up with an undiagnosed mild to moderate tongue tie. I've changed my tongue
position, and even as an adult have noticeably expanded my palate such that
there is more room in my arch than their was before (as determined by modest
gaps developing between my mid-molars).

In short it's been a big discovery for me this year, and the results are
manifest in my life. Sad that this is not well understood by orthodontists and
such everywhere.

~~~
graeme
Can you point me to more on this? A technical name for it, etc

I have bruxism at night. Generally, my jaw grinds down too much. Hard to stop,
because I'm asleep.

I tried pushing my tongue up to the roof of my mouth, and it feels like the
opposite of grinding. I'd like to research and see if there's any link. (I'm
really out of options for reducing bruxism)

Are you pressing the tongue or just resting it up top?

~~~
busterbaxter
The practice is called orthotropics. I can vouch for this user's experience
myself, have had difficulty breathing for many years which led to poor teeth
and a narrow palate. Once I received a palatal expander i realized how
important it was to keep tongue pressure flat on the roof of the mouth. I
practice regularly now and have seem improvements to teeth, breathing, and
facing structure. It's a shame this stuff isn't taught more. You can find more
details in this video:
[https://youtu.be/eh9OqEd5z1k](https://youtu.be/eh9OqEd5z1k)

~~~
TheCowboy
Could you provide more resources that demonstrate the science, such a studies
or journal articles? I was interested and didn't find anything.

Additionally I found this that seems to suggest skepticism:
[https://www.nature.com/articles/sj.bdj.2014.711](https://www.nature.com/articles/sj.bdj.2014.711)

~~~
ponderatul
I understand your skepticism. But you should start with the orthotropics
youtube channel. Obviously, not an unbiased source of information. But it's a
start from which you can at least critically evaluate what they say.

Another thing to bear in mind is that scientific theories are obviously
developed faster than they can be proven. And as long as what Orthotropics is
not invasive you can try what they preach yourself and draw your own
conclusions rather than wait for academic silos to try prove that the method
works.

I am trying it on myself. The results are not magical, but I can feel them, I
can breathe better. And at the end of the day that's what matters most

------
creep
Teeth is a favorite focal-point for anxious people. My very anxious friend,
who took acutane when she was younger, is absolutely certain her teeth will
fall out when she's 40 years old because her mother took acutane and all of
her teeth fell out. The dentist apparently told her something about the roots
drying up.

I have dreams in which my jaw widens to the point that it gets stuck-- and
then keeps widening. I have dreams where all my teeth fall out and I have to
perform an algorithm to put them back in the right order.

Probably because teeth are so exposed, so vulnerable, and are so critically
important to social matters-- nevermind that I need them to eat.

I also can't look at pictures of teeth for more than 30 seconds without
feeling disconcerted, even though I focus on people's mouths most during a
conversation.

~~~
cowpewter
I've had similar dreams as well. They usually only happen when I'm extremely
stressed. It's usually my teeth falling out, and oh is the sensation of loose
teeth rolling around in my mouth both vivid and horrifying.

One time it was my tongue swelling up til I couldn't contain it in my mouth
anymore, and another I was chewing bubblegum, but no matter how much gum I
spit out, the gum kept growing until I was choking on it.

I also had a dream where my teeth fell out, I woke up, was relieved it was
only a dream, and got up to go the bathroom. Everything was normal and exactly
as it should have been. Even the bathroom light switch worked, which is
usually one of those things people say is a dream-tell. Then my teeth started
getting loose again, and I panicked and woke up a second time. I had been just
been dreaming that I woke up the first time.

~~~
dajohnson89
I also have a recurring nightmare of all my teeth rotting and falling out.

~~~
andruby
Dreaming of teeth falling out is a common dream. I've been told that it means
you are afraid of growing old.

I had that dream a lot in the past.

~~~
pasquinelli
seems like a reference to baby teeth coming out.

------
otakucode
About a decade ago there was a tremendously promising discovery. A genetically
modified variant of the caries bacteria that is the major cause of tooth decay
was created which, instead of metabolizing glucose into acid, metabolized it
into something inert which also happened to be poisonous to the caries
bacteria that excrete acid. A 45 second rinse with a small amount of liquid
doped with these bacteria would mean permanent lack of tooth decay.

This would, of course, eliminate 90% or so of the entire dental industry in a
single blow. I don't know if that had anything to do with it or not, but the
doctor researching it lost funding and the pursuit of turning it into a
product or available treatment was abandoned.

~~~
andai
From Wikipedia[0]:

Jeffrey Hillman from the University of Florida developed a genetically
modified strain of Streptococcus mutans called BCS3-L1, that is incapable of
producing lactic acid – the acid that dissolves tooth enamel – and
aggressively replaces native flora. In laboratory tests, rats who were given
BCS3-L1 were conferred with a lifetime of protection against S. mutans.
BCS3-L1 colonizes the mouth and produces a small amount of a lantibiotic,
called MU1140, which allows it to out-compete S. mutans. Hillman suggested
that treatment with BCS3-L1 in humans could also provide a lifetime of
protection, or, at worst, require occasional re-applications. He stated that
the treatment would be available in dentists' offices and "will probably cost
less than $100." The product was being developed by Oragenics, but was shelved
in 2014, citing regulatory concerns and patent issues. In 2016, Oragenics
received a 17-year patent for the product.

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caries_vaccine#Attempts_using_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caries_vaccine#Attempts_using_replacement_therapy)

[1]: [https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1941-gm-bacteria-
may-...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1941-gm-bacteria-may-banish-
tooth-decay/amp/)

[2]:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12369203/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12369203/)

~~~
DarkTree
You left out the next paragraph which is may be one of the reasons it's not
used:

> On rare occasions the native S. mutans strain escapes into the blood,
> potentially causing dangerous heart infections. It is unclear how likely
> BCS3-L1 is to do the same.

~~~
otakucode
That would be a really weird reason. The natural bacteria has the exact same
problem. The engineered one is uncertain to have the problem. Why would you
opt for the one that definitely carries the risk and ALSO causes expensive
tooth decay?

~~~
John_KZ
Because the engineered caries might behave differently and unexpectedly.
Regular caries has a pretty hard time getting into the bloodstream and won't
infect other regions. Can the immune recognize the new strain? Can the new
strain infect other regions of the body? Does it permeate into the bloodstream
more often? There are more questions to be answered, experimentally.

------
tcfunk
Nonsense. We all know that teeth are unrelated to general health, or else they
would be covered under the same insurance policy.

~~~
war1025
The idea behind insurance is that you pay a small amount consistently over
time so that there is enough money in the mutual pot to cover it when rare
expensive events occur.

Dental insurance is not included in standard insurance, and is in general a
much worse deal, because all people tend to have dental issues in some form or
another. So there is nothing rare about it to spread the risk / cost out.

~~~
dralley
And when you do have issues, the costs tend to be significantly higher than
than the yearly limits.

The main benefit is that it makes the appointment costs reasonable enough that
people will actually get them.

------
pasbesoin
Oral health care should be at the center of our health care strategy and
tactics.

We keep learning more about how major, devastating, and very costly illnesses
have origins -- contributory or principal -- in oral illness.

That we haven't already acted on this, speaks to the disfunction of our health
care system. Here in the U.S., for me, but also in other countries whose
"universal health care" excludes dental health.

Cosmetics may be another matter. But oral health? It needs to be covered. A
primary factor in preventive care.

And also, the people who make (very good) livings shoveling sugar to kids --
especially, going around parents' controls and wishes -- need a good, hard
looking at.

------
brandonmenc
Yay!

Another thread where everyone on HN can demonstrate that they think they know
everything about health while being almost completely wrong.

~~~
nnq
One would say that anything that offsets the narrowness of perspective you
usually see in discussions between healthcare professionals is worth it. Yeah,
most advice here is harmful, but so are things in other fields where we have
learned to swallow a _need_ for _diversity of perspective_ and _diversity of
opinions_...

You can't really avoid hurtful misinformation so you could at least enjoy the
_benefits_ that the more open climate engendering it offers... I really hope
the coming wave of "garage bio-hacking" brings a more playful and research
accelerating attitude to the biomedical fields (along with some little bit of
unavoidable death and maiming that we can hopefully laugh off)...

~~~
brandonmenc
The level of discussion here that veers from the scientific mainstream re:
nutrition, diet, and exercise, is comparable to that found in your local
hippie dippy whole foods co-operative or crossfit gym.

i.e., mostly useless, and possibly dangerous.

------
mcfunk
I cannot let this topic go by without recommending this fantastic interview
with an artist who created a model of David Bowie's early-career teeth:
[http://w.dental-
tribune.com/articles/news/europe/21686_inter...](http://w.dental-
tribune.com/articles/news/europe/21686_interview_bowies_teeth_were_like_everything_else_about_him_different.html)

------
mingabunga
Just my 2 cents. 13 years ago I used to always have cavities every time I went
to the dentist. Then got told to leave toothpaste on my teeth instead of
rinsing after brushing (I only brush once a day). Haven't had any issues
since, so I'm guessing the floride has a local effect.

~~~
slazaro
Wait, do you mean leaving it on for a minute and then rinsing, or not rinsing
at all and just go about your day?

~~~
Steve44
I was taught to not rinse, I just wash the outside of my lips & face to
freshen you. I presume that lets it linger longer and also you'll swallow some
so will be absorbed that way too.

~~~
krageon
Toothpaste is poisonous isn't it? Swallowing it wouldn't be something that
makes me happy.

~~~
Steve44
As far as I'm aware not in any dose you're ever likely to ingest. What are
your sources?

~~~
krageon
Sadly this is from a paper I read when I was somewhere between 8 and 13 so it
_is_ entirely possible I formed the wrong conclusions at the time.

Edit: Needless to say, I don't remember the title. Perhaps I should re-
investigate it.

------
beautifulfreak
I remember one of the very first David Letterman shows, he had his dentist as
a guest, reviewing the recent Warren Beatty movie Reds from the point of view
of dentistry. Apparently it wasn't a very realistic movie.

------
qwerty456127
New caries cures/vaccines invented appear in news every other year (the only
thing that seem being invented more often are new super-duper batteries) yet
none of them reach general availability.

The most recent discovery I can remember is about growing new dentine using an
Alzheimer drug:
[https://www.nature.com/articles/srep39654](https://www.nature.com/articles/srep39654)

Anyway, I actually find it shocking that in 21th century people are still
walking around with a part of our bodies rotting and consider it normal.

------
kqr
George Eastman, father of Kodak, was passionate about oral health
--particularly for kids. It's why we have an Eastman Institute in Sweden. Not
everybody knows it was funded by _the_ Eastman!

