
Windows Phone 8 Apollo detailed, will have Windows 8 integration - ViolentJason
http://www.winbeta.org/news/windows-phone-8-apollo-detailed-will-have-windows-8-integration
======
stcredzero
Something occurred to me the other day with regards to integration, which
mobile UX designers may or may not be aware of. What people really want is
"Fat Cache."

Clearly, "thin client" was hyped and fizzled out, because it isn't quite what
people want. They don't want a "thin client" to the cloud. A pure thin client
is pretty dead when there's no network or the server's down. A "Fat Cache"
would retain all of its functionality and the user's most used data. It would
also have most of the advantages of thin client, namely invisible centralized
administration. It would also ameliorate all of the disadvantages.

iCloud, Chromebook, and Kindle Fire/Silk Browser are all moves in this
direction.

The focus of a computer user should be their data. This includes apps. The
apps should also live in the cloud and just appear on all the user's devices.
In fact, the user's application "session" should be in the cloud too. I should
be able to start a session on a recipe app on my smartphone in the living
room, then walk to the kitchen and just seamlessly continue my session on my
tablet. No reopening the tablet version of the app, no repeating a search for
the same recipe. At most, just one user operation to "open in tablet."

All these form factors should just be seen as interfaces to our data, just
instances of a "fat cache."

~~~
brudgers
> _"iCloud, Chromebook, and Kindle Fire/Silk Browser"_

What do you do when the storm takes down your cable provider?

Or when you are beyond your cell phone carrier's signal?

And you have a project to get out the door.

~~~
cryptoz
You work on it locally, with your Fat Cache copy and your offline app. You
sync up when the 'net comes back online. Should I ask you how you get your
coding done when the power goes out? Either you don't get it done at all, or
you write down ideas on paper. There's not much else you can do, and that's
the way it is.

Frankly, I've only had about 10 minutes of total, unexpected and unavoidable
network downtime in the last few years of my life. With a home internet
connection and a smartphone in my pocket, if my power goes out I can work away
_online_ for hours and hours. Power outages and network outages happen so
infrequently that if we have reasonably good offline apps and Fat Caches,
we're good to go. And not only that, but we're approaching a place where can
continue working almost uninterrupted if both the main power and the network
go down.

~~~
nakor
How fat is "fat"? Are you assuming the cache will be able to fit whatever data
you need to work with?

~~~
stcredzero
Yes, I'm envisioning a "fat cache" for the current day would need about 240GB
of flash. Basically a little below average sized hard drive's amount of
storage would do.

------
potatolicious
And yet, despite these features, the thing that will make or break WinPhone is
still going to be the marketing and the hardware.

The Lumia 900 is a very big step in a very good direction. MS needs to double-
down on this and stop kowtowing to Samsung et al, who are pushing out half-
assed turds of phones that do a disservice to the brand.

The "free OS" segment of the market is taken by Android, and I think it'll
take an act of god to unseat it at this point. WinPhone's only hope is to
compete at the higher end with the likes of iPhone and Galaxy phones.

And marketing. God, the marketing. _Where is it?_

MS is betting the company on WinPhone, but where is the marketing message? Why
aren't bus sheltered swimming in these ads? Why aren't they _all over TV_ like
Android and iOS is? Why are WinPhones still hiding in the darkest corners of
the AT&T stores?

This is the biggest failing of WinPhone IMO - it's a fine platform and a fine
product, but _nobody knows about it_.

~~~
untog
_The "free OS" segment of the market is taken by Android, and I think it'll
take an act of god to unseat it at this point._

I disagree with that. Android does dominate cheap smartphones right now, but
by and large they are terrible devices, and I (anecdotally) know plenty of
people who regret their purchase. Compare to the Lumia 710, which is a very,
very decent phone, and WP7, which is a very "put together" OS.

I absolutely think that MS could dominate the low to mid range smartphone
market if they do it properly.

~~~
bri3d
I'd argue that "low to midrange smartphone" and "free OS smartphone" are two
separate markets outside the US and Europe.

Inside the US where carrier phones are dumbphones, iPhones, Google-branded
official-partner Android phones, or outliers, you're totally right - Windows
Phone has a great shot at taking over the low-end to mid-range cheap-but-
still-branded Android phones from LG, Samsung, and Motorola.

Overseas, where "free OS smartphone" is a market niche occupied by 500 Chinese
things people in the US have never heard of with no Google branding whatsoever
(and no or hacked Android Market access), Windows Phone doesn't stand a
chance, because it can't be downloaded and hacked together.

------
jobu
It's interesting what people find important about news like this. The fact
that Win Phone 8 will support native code (C/C++) and cross-app communication
is far more important to me than the Windows 8 integration.

As a platform I have been very impressed by Win Phone 7, and I hope they
continue to execute as well as they have.

~~~
pjmlp
I agree with you.

Since the Build conference I have been hoping that they would make WinRT
available on WP8.

------
untog
The integration between Phone 8 And Desktop 8 is going to be the most
interesting part of both OSes, IMO. No details on exactly how it'll work yet,
of course, but I don't think anyone has tried to merge desktop and mobile to
quite the same degree that MS is apparently planning.

~~~
nextparadigms
Well, both Apple and Google want to all but replace the whole "PC paradigm"
with iOS and Android. The iPad already re-uses most of the code for the iPhone
version, except with some design tweaks, and with Android it's the same. I
can't see how this WP8/W8 "integration" could possibly be anymore "integrated"
that what Apple and Google already have for both phones and tablets/hybrid
devices.

Also, I can't help but think that Microsft will take the whole
"homogenization" of platforms between mouse-driven PC, touch-driven tablet,
and phones, a little too far. Some form factors do need optimized UI's and
code for that form factor or device type. You can't just use a one-size-fits-
all for everything. It would be like Google using the phone UI for Google TV.
It would be a mess.

~~~
brudgers
> _"I can't see how this WP8/W8 "integration" could possibly be anymore
> "integrated" that what Apple and Google already have for both phones and
> tablets/hybrid devices."_

Developers! can use NET and Visual Studio from the compact framework on phones
via Silverlight, right on up to Windows Server at your DataCenter.

Developers! get a continuous stack.

Developers! can integrate everything from an ATM to a Website.

[edits: formatting, add quote to which I was responding.]

~~~
bad_user
Does Visual Studio run on Linux or OS X?

I'm asking because IntelliJ IDEA and Java do and I'm not leaving my POSIX
toolchain for Visual Studio, no matter how awesome it is.

If you want a "continuous stack" there's nothing better than Java. And yet
many developers still hate it, while many love the extremely limited iOS
platform, which goes to show that this trait is not so important as one might
think.

~~~
brudgers
Java has its merits.

Close integration with the OS is not one of them.

Standard graphics libraries which meet contemporary expectations is also
unfortunately missing.

There's nothing wrong with Java as a development environment, but the cost of
"getting Java on the phone" is at best comparable to support for Windows (and
at worst you're dealing with Oracle).

~~~
stcredzero
_Java has its merits. Close integration with the OS is not one of them._

We're at the point now, where OS and language should merge. There should be a
user data-centric design, with abstractions for the underlying hardware, so
that most applications can be written across all of a user's devices, with
"skins" for different particular form factors.

~~~
dman
This idea while seductive has not panned out in practice in the past - lisp
machines have tried this niche before. Orthogonality between different layers
of the stack actually encourages loose coupling and allows for flexibility and
innovation.

~~~
stcredzero
Yes, but Lisp machines didn't have the cloud. Back then, such an architecture,
as elegant as it might be, would be an anchor and not a net gain. With the
cloud, and a culture brought up on Facebook, such an architecture would
provide an unparalleled level of convenience.

------
jbarham
Tight integration between a mobile phone and a desktop OS is IMO a misfeature.

I have an Android phone and the only time I've had to connect it to my PC is
to download photos. And then it looks just like another other USB drive w/ the
top-level DCIM that my digital camera's SD card has. Just drag-and-drop.

On the other hand my in-laws bought iPhones and copying photos and MP3s to
them via iTunes was confusing and very, very slow.

Consider too that for most people in the developing world, a mobile phone is
the only "computer" they will own. Requiring integration with a desktop PC
effectively cuts Apple and Microsoft off from a market of billions of people.

~~~
tomflack
_Tight integration between a mobile phone and a desktop OS is IMO a
misfeature._

Based on your two examples it seems as if you feel this way because you've
only experienced light integration or poor integration, and don't have the
imagination to see past that.

If Microsoft can make it work, and offer something polished in the process
then it could be something special. Remember they're counting the "desktop OS"
of Windows as their tablet OS as well now. There exists untold numbers of
opportunities for nice little integrations done well.

 _Consider too that for most people in the developing world, a mobile phone is
the only "computer" they will own. Requiring integration with a desktop PC
effectively cuts Apple and Microsoft off from a market of billions of people._

That's why you don't make it mandatory like you're suggesting.

------
igorgue
Did anybody else pressed __cmd+f UNIX __when reading this article?

------
cooldeal
Don't bother submitting news like this. It will be falsely flagged like your
other post <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3544173>

Enough of those flags and your account will be hellbanned for the crime of
posting Microsoft-centric news that anti-MS zealots on HN seem sensitive to. I
posted this same news from Winsupersite earlier and it was hellbanned.

~~~
brudgers
It appears that everything from WinSuperSite is killed.

Here are two I posted:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3541271>

[http://www.winsupersite.com/blog/supersite-
blog-39/android/7...](http://www.winsupersite.com/blog/supersite-
blog-39/android/70-percent-android-devices-covered-microsoft-patents-141881)

~~~
recoiledsnake
Happened to me too, I guess it's not enough for the fanboys cult to upvote
Gruber, they have to flag Winsupersite as well.

~~~
brudgers
I don't think it's so much about Apple as about Google.

The story about the Gmail Man and privacy concerns was down around number 70
(page 3) at two hours old and 59 points. That's a lot of flagging.

And Android is far more vulnerable to Microsoft than iOS because the major
manufacturers all have licensing agreements in place with Microsoft because of
patents.

Stories about BN's claims of patent abuse being thrown out by the ITC
magistrate on Monday have been flagged down, including this excellent article:

[http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2012/01/itc-throws-out-
barne...](http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2012/01/itc-throws-out-barnes-
nobles-antitrust.html)

~~~
rbanffy
> That's a lot of flagging.

Again, the video is plain dishonest. It compares the free Gmail with the paid
365. And why do we need to assume Microsoft's Hotmail banners are not based on
page content?

> including this excellent article:

Come on... Excellent and Florian Mueller in the same sentence? The only thing
I never saw with his name is a criticism of Microsoft. I have to wonder why...

~~~
powertower
What's dishonest about it?

For ad context/relavancy, Hotmail does NOT parse your emails for keywords.

~~~
rbanffy
It implies Gmail-man is a sentient entity that snoops through your e-mail and
makes conclusions about skin conditions while, in fact, it's just a set of
rules that shows relevant (and _very_ unobtrusive) banners. I am quite sure
Google does not store the keywords in any way that can be connected to you.

Also, don't fall for the illusion your Microsoft Hotmail (or 365) inbox is any
more secure from snooping by sentient beings (the ones who should really
bother you) than any other mail service.

And, finally, the video compares the free Gmail product with the Office 365
offering that is 20% more expensive than the Google Apps for Business product.
If we are comparing free products, we should compare Gmail and its unobtrusive
context-sensitive banners to Hotmail and its obnoxious we-don't-know-how-they-
are-selected (other than "poorly") banners.

~~~
powertower
> it's just a set of rules

That pretty much describes every system.

> It implies Gmail-man is a sentient entity..

It's a corny parody for internal use.

And for all the bullshit that Google spinned towards Bing in public, I
consider this fair play. <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3536110>

------
rbanffy
With removable SD cards and network data usage metering Windows Phone will be
unstoppable. Windows Phone is on track to take over the market in 2015 as
predicted by IHS.

Sure.

edit: and Windows fans complain _they_ are being downvoted... sigh...

~~~
brudgers
Snark and sarcasm are often downvoted.

Though sometimes downvotes are used to express disagreement, downvotes should
be considered editorial feedback - either you didn't make your point clearly,
or your comment is considered likely to derail the discussion.

Use the "edit" and "delete" links, respectively if you are concerned about the
karma score of a particular comment.

It is bad form on HN to complain about down votes.

~~~
rbanffy
> It is bad form on HN to complain about down

I was trying to make a meta-point. There are root posts complaining every
article criticizing Google and Apple is flagged into oblivion while the same
happens to comments that are Microsoft-unfriendly.

In this case, it could be the sarcasm too. Anyway, it could be more productive
to point me why my sarcastic assessment is wrong.

~~~
brudgers
Well, as you probably know, going meta is also often downvoted.

As for your assessment, the two features upon which your sarcasm was centered
were obviously among the most trivial mentioned. Therefore, there was little
invitation to respond to your argument based upon its merits.

Sometimes of course, one just makes a snarky comment and lets the karma fall
where it may. Maybe if you had a few hundred karma points, it would be an
option.

As for the flagging, on most of the internet it has long been socially
acceptable to praise Apple and disparage Microsoft in public forums - Apple of
course encouraged this sort of thing with their long running "I am a Mac/PC"
advertising campaign.

This social norm is actually one of the issues which got me interested in
Apple and their advertising and the way in which people who like their
products feel free to act in public - seriously, every time the Macbooks get a
new case or port or processor upgrade, there's been a front page story here on
HN.

Google of course doesn't have that luxury of a huge consumer following -
people use them by default e.g. as their standard search engine or as the free
touchscreen smartphone. And they are smart enough to know what that may mean
over the long term - particularly when handset manufacturers now have
agreements in place with Microsoft in all probability due to their rush to
ship Android.

Is there a concerted effort to flag Microsoft stories? The killing of stories
from WinSuperSite is consistent with it. The killing of the "Gmail Man" story
is consistent with it as well - particularly given the quality of the
discussion which was taking place.

~~~
rbanffy
> given the quality of the discussion which was taking place.

I think you got it. I imagine many people flag topics when the discussions in
them reach a certain low.

As for the features I mentioned, they are, certainly, the most trivial. But
it's also surprising (baffling, actually) Microsoft allowed WP7 to reach the
market without them and I'd be ashamed to list such basic features as
improvements. It's like saying "now makes calls". And a more constructive
approach would be to point out those are the least relevant features and that
the others are much more interesting (and why).

~~~
brudgers
I replaced my Symbian Phone with a WP7 phone.

When I got the Nokia, I went out and bought an 8GB card for it. It peaked at
about 1GB of usage - I could have stored all that on the phone's memory
instead.

My WP7 phone has about 10GB free (more than half). It's not an issue. My wife
has an 8GB iPhone, memory is not an issue (are you baffled that iPhones don't
have removable storage?)

Data plan usage has never been an issue for the people I am around - even
though I imagine it is for some people. And if I cared, the data usage
available from my carrier via my phone.

The way I see it, those are listed just so that there is something that
everyone can get their head around when comparing specs.

