
What Happened to U.S. Plans to Raise the H-1B Visa Ceiling? - prostoalex
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2014/09/12/what-happened-to-u-s-plans-to-raise-the-h-1b-work-visa-ceiling/
======
JeremyMorgan
While I'm all for equal opportunity, the hidden side effect I'm noticing from
the H1B increase is exploitation by companies, of both the H1B holders and non
holders.

Many companies and shops in the "silicon forest" have been pushing people to
longer hours, they seek out H1Bs so they can get away with more and those who
are not H1Bs have to comply with demands because of the threat of being
replaced by an H1B.

In the end, only the big companies win from the program. That's just been my
impression the last few years.

~~~
makmanalp
This is untrue. If you actually look at the data, you'll find that the
companies who hire the majority of H-1Bs are actually not the silicon valley
usual suspects. Some of them you haven't even heard of.

If you're not in the consulting world or are not a foreign worker in the US,
you probably don't know much about Infosys, Wipro, Tata consulting services,
Satyam computer services, Larsen & Toubro, HCL. Yet these companies comprise
the vast majority of all H-1B petitions, with average salaries ranging from
50k to the 75k, well under market for tech.

Some silicon valley firms are there, yes. IBM averages 82k, not bad for a
company which capitalizes on commoditizing engineering. Then there is
Microsoft, Oracle, Apple, Google, Amazon, Intel, which form a _minority_ of
petitions, and have /average/ salaries of over $100k. How is that not a
competitive salary? 6 digits is not wage slavery, and these people were not
compelled to settle for that, for christ's sake.

The companies have to pay 5 to 7k in legal costs and fees to get the H-1B, and
even more for larger companies. And they have to wait for months for a chance
to get it approved. For the former group, given how low the wages are, this is
cost effective. For the latter group, it really isn't better.

Facebook, which doesn't even make the top 50 list, has been campaigning for
immigration reform and has repeatedly been the target of "taking our jerbs"
rhetoric, when their average foreign worker salary is around 120k.

So yes, some companies win, but not the ones you expect. Blame the right
companies, and don't throw everyone under the bus.

\----

Data: [http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2013-H1B-Visa-
Sponsor.aspx](http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2013-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx)
(yes, yes, not all LCA's files actually turn into visas, etc, but they are
representative of wages companies intend to pay.)

Disclaimer: I'm on an H-1B, and I'm getting a bit sick and tired of clearing
up misconceptions that keep coming up on this subject on HN. An old post on
the subject:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5515519](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5515519)

\----

edit: To clarify, yes, I think the legal immigration process, especially the
H-1B is messed up. I think it needs to be fixed and modernized. I think it
needs to be untied from company sponsorship, and the workers need to not be
tied down to companies, and subject to market forces. I think there needs to
be more transparency too in terms of the data. I've even proposed a policy
limiting the number of H-1B workers larger companies can have, which addresses
the H-1B sweatshop issue somewhat, while not damaging foreign workers. But
yeah, I get mad when people talk about a subject so important to me without
having any clue about the data, and reach their conclusions through political
rhetoric they heard elsewhere.

~~~
jazzyk
It does NOT matter what the average/median salary is (although you might argue
that even 100K in SV is not that much). What _matters_ is - what would the
salaries have been, if it were not for the mass import of workers from India.
You don't need to be a genius to know that more supply => lower price. I am
always amazed that many supposedly bright engineers miss this very simple
correlation.

~~~
davidw
Which is why we are so much poorer these days than 100 years ago with way
fewer people.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy)

Also: if you keep all those people out, the companies will end up going where
the talent is.

Anyway, I flagged this article - it's politics.

~~~
econdataus
> Which is why we are so much poorer these days than 100 years ago with way
> fewer people.
> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy)

I don't buy the notion that every H-1B visa worker creates jobs. Taking the
fact that some of the most talented individuals who come in under H-1B create
jobs does not mean that they all do or that they create jobs on average. That
is the Fallacy of composition described at
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition)
as follows:

"The fallacy of composition arises when one implies that something is true of
the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole (or even of
every proper part)."

> Also: if you keep all those people out, the companies will end up going
> where the talent is.

No, many of those hotshot CEOs (many of whom, like Zuckerberg, were born on
third base) would have already moved all of their operations overseas if cheap
labor was their only goal. They realize there are problems with doing that.
First of all, they would have to constantly travel to the foreign sites to
meet with the natives. They are also likely aware that it would just be a
matter of time before the natives found a way to overthrow their American
overlords and install their own people in charge. Finally, they realize that
it would look unpatriotic and greedy to move their entire operation overseas.
Instead, they just seek to buy influence in Washington D.C., push to loosen
the H-1B laws to bring in more cheap labor, and make phony claims that this is
necessary because there aren't enough American workers to allow their genius
to take full bloom.

------
wittgenstein
It's unbelievable that the US government is focusing on providing a legal path
to citzenship to ILLEGAL immigrants, while legal immigrants who are highly
educated (sometimes at Ivy Leage institutions) have to wait for years to get a
greencard, depending on their country of citizenship. What's unbelievable is
that they can't easily change employers during the green card application
process. There is nothing more absurd than American top universities educating
thousands of highly qualified international students, only to make their lives
miserable with respect to immigration after they graduate and doing everything
in their power to encourage them to take their brains to another country
instead.

~~~
mh_yam
It's horrible. I have a bachelors from a top US school, working on a masters
from another top school, and I can't even take a week off in between jobs
because it may cause immigration problems.

Meanwhile Obama goes around making speeches about how kids of illegal
immigrants somehow have the 'right' to citizenship and would be able to
benefit from US public services (which by the way I and other legal immigrants
are paying for).

Completely absurd and needs to change.

~~~
jpitzo
> somehow have the 'right' to citizenship

The 14th amendment makes it pretty clear that (with very rare exception)
anyone born on US soil is born a US citizen.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_in_the_United_State...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_in_the_United_States#Birthright_citizenship)

~~~
al2o3cr
LOL, most of the nativists are still itching to re-fight the war that got us
the 13th / 14th / 15th, so citing those won't convince them...

------
DanielBMarkham
What the fuck?

Let me see if I understand this. The president wanted to do some things on
immigration. He decided against it. [insert long political debate here]

But the things he was going to do _had nothing to do with the H-1B Visa
Ceiling_ , which can only be raised by an act of congress. So the reporter
writes this piece about the administration's plans, which have nothing to do
with H-1B, then kind sticks in that the president could do something about
H-1B spouses at the end.

The headline literally has nothing to do with the article.

Now maybe somebody would like to make the case that the toxic atmosphere in
Washington, combined with party X doing Y, yadda yadda - -- no increase in
H-1B Visas. Which is where the lead kind of promised we were going. Great
political wonkery piece. I'd probably read it. But the supporting text was all
about administration stuff. If you want to write a piece about what congress
is doing or not doing? Call me crazy, but I'm thinking you should have some
stuff in there about congress.

I'm kind of at a loss here. Do the folks at the WSJ read the articles before
creating headlines?

~~~
Mangalor
It read to me like a puff piece done to prop up the H1-B issue and keep it
alive. A lot of New York based, WSJ-friendly companies use H1-B workers
because they're cheap, so even though it's a political non-starter, tripling
the number of H1-B's is still a priority for them.

------
AngrySkillzz
Dunno if it's a big deal. Most of the people coming here on H1-B visas aren't
the highly-skilled workers that we actually expect; the vast majority of them
go to garbage IT consulting companies like Infosys and Wipro.

~~~
shas3
So throw the baby out with the bathwater? My friend is one of only about 50
experts in his field in the world. He is at the risk of losing his ability to
work in the US because he didn't get through the H1B lottery.

------
novalis78
H1B visas clearly lead to lower wages, longer hours of work and fierce
competition. At times it feels like a modern form of slavery. Interestingly
enough, the software industry is one of the few truly innovative industries in
the US. Makes you wonder what would happen to healthcare/nuclear/manufacturing
if it was as easy to hire foreign skilled workers and even more so if you'd
allow them to create their own companies. The H1B system makes it extremely
hard for even accomplished developers to stay and get a greencard eventually,
start their own business - only the best and (legally) most enduring will
prevail. A simple point system for visas a la Canada with a clear path to
citizenship and cap on welfare support would attract a lot of creative
individuals, methinks...

------
chickenfeet
Good. We need to ramp down H-1B - there are plenty of out-of-work STEM majors
here, there is no need for importing more foreign workers.

~~~
fleitz
One of the things I like about working in tech is the absence of the "they
terk ur gerbs" type crap.

If you're out performed by an H1B you need to step up your game not worry
about H1Bs. If you don't have H1Bs they will just out compete you from another
country. Did you notice the manufacturing sector leave?

Turns out working hard is a bit more important the graduating from a
prestigious school.

How does one have a STEM degree and not have a job? Do they not know about
craigslist? Career fairs? Recruiters? elance? etc? Are they somehow physically
disabled that prevents them from taking a day labour job? Are they unable to
find their library and open a book on Javascript? Ruby? Python? C? C++? UNIX?
TCP/IP? HTTP?

Perhaps the real reason they do not have a job is that they feel work is
'beneath' them. Like how can you not find a job... I have a high school
education and I get called twice a day, in Vancouver not SF...

~~~
chickenfeet
Out-performed? How about it being cheaper for companies to hire and
maintain... It's not about quality at all, it's about saving money.

~~~
fleitz
Hiring the cheapest programmers available generally doesn't work out well,
especially if they are cheap and experienced.

Holding your nose up high and refusing to work for the prevailing wage
generally doesn't work well, get a job, do something awesome for low pay,
leverage that into something that pays well.

While most people were paying thousands of dollars a year going to school I
was getting paid to learn tech working a shitty tech support job. While most
of my colleagues were graduating, I was buying my first house at 22. (Yes, as
tech support pay grade, no startup millions). Before tech support I was
working at a warehouse stacking boxes and doing other day labour.

Don't complain about H1Bs work harder, faster, and smarter than them. An H1B
is no different than any other motivated competitor.

~~~
mhurron
> Hiring the cheapest programmers available generally doesn't work out well,
> especially if they are cheap and experienced.

It works out just fine on quarterly earnings reports so it works out just
fine.

------
eli_gottlieb
I've said it before, I'll say it again: if H1-B was actually about skills, the
state would auction off the visas to those firms bidding the highest salary
offers, and rake in the resulting payroll and income taxes.

------
general_failure
I would like to see a entrepreneur visa in the US rather more H1-B. The main
thing going for the US is that no other country is really stepping up. (YC,
please open a branch in another country!)

~~~
syntern
I think E2 is regarded as entrepreneur visa. It requires investment coming
into the US though...

~~~
general_failure
[http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/e-2-treaty-
investor/unde...](http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/e-2-treaty-
investor/understanding-e-2-requirements)

E2 is for investors. Your average cofounder is not an investor.

