
3D Printed Car Is Nearing Production - Libertatea
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/02/3d-printed-car/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Top+Stories%29#.US3uj58WB0U.hackernews
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jdietrich
Everyone involved in this should be ashamed of themselves.

The machine pictured is a Stratasys Fortus 900MC, which costs $379,900. An
annual lease on a machine of this type is usually about a fifth of its
purchase cost, so let's be generous and call it $70,000 per year. Each body
therefore costs about $20,000 _in machine time alone_ , before you factor in
the cost of materials and the not-inconsiderable amount of finishing that an
FDM part requires once it comes off the machine.

There's nothing magical about 3d printing, so we could just as easily
injection-mold these parts in exactly the same ABS plastic at a tiny fraction
of the cost. There'd be no point, because ABS is a _terrible_ material for car
bodies.

Car bodies are largely stiffness-critical structures. In most practical
materials, they're much stronger than they need to be once you've made them
sufficiently stiff. That's why carbon composite is such an excellent material
for performance cars - it's immensely stiff. You don't need to be an engineer
to know that ABS plastic isn't very stiff.

The whole thing is hokum, absolute hokum.

~~~
erikpukinskis
I'm not an Engineer, but aren't there limitations on what kinds of shapes you
can injection mould? Different limitations than those on 3d printing? For
example you could 3d print a closed cell ABS foam-like structure, or
honeycomb, which would be lighter than a solid plastic part of equivalent
strength.

~~~
crististm
Every time I see these futuristic cars with continuous forms and seamless
integration of body and glass I wonder: how much a collision repair is going
to cost?

Sometimes, smart shapes are too smart for their own good. They are at the
border of bad engineering.

------
Shivetya
Its not a real car so don't call it one. Until it passed actual crash tests I
don't are how much weight savings they claim to have.

I am impressed that someone took 3d printing this far, it shows the many uses
traditional automakers will be able to derive from it, mostly on the component
sides. There is no reason dash assemblies could not be done this for current
makers other that costs and and that printing time. You can bet they have or
are looking into such technologies.

There are many tricks to forming car bodies in steel that allow for variances
of thickness and such. Hot form steel manufacturing being introduced now
allows for thinner and stronger stamped steel parts; essentially a water
cooled press.

So while its neat, its not a car, yet.

~~~
sopooneo
My understanding is that 3-D printing is still only optimal for prototyping.
Once you get into production of any size, traditional methods are much cheaper
per unit.

~~~
guizzy
It depends; 3D printing can be optimal for goods that are built to order
(where having a mold for a one-off custom order would be a waste).

~~~
tgrass
I drive an old Montero. I frequently must wait a week or more for parts to be
shipped - if I can even find them online. I dream of a day when I can walk
into a shop and pay a premium for parts-on-demand.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
You're dreaming of today? Because that's what it is. You can walk into just
about any machine shop and get your part as long as you have drawings and
material spec. You probably won't be happy with the cost, though.

The point is that the spare parts you need can be made with traditional
manufacturing processes _because that's how the original was done_. Just
because you only need one, doesn't necessarily make it easier to produce by a
3D printing machine.

------
graeham
The title is extremely misleading, as the structural parts of the car are
meant to be made of a metal tube frame, quote from article:

"The design puts a tubular metal cage around the driver, “like a NASCAR roll
cage,” Kor claims. And he also mentioned the possibility of printed shock-
absorbing parts between the printed exterior and the chassis. "

Interesting demonstration of the technology, but if you want a light, non-
structural body, carbon fibre (or even fibreglass if worried about cost) would
almost certainly be cheaper and faster to produce.

~~~
jere
It's always the same damn thing with guns. Headlines talk about 3D printed
firearms, but then when you actually read the article, the entire extent of
the worry is "eventually hobbyists hope to print _almost an entire component_
with a 3D printer." Shudder.

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btipling
Until this company has reached the size required to hire enough lawyers to
easily squash wrongful death suits with intimidation and endless court appeals
on a regular basis I doubt I will feel safe enough to ride in one.

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yareally
Half the weight is not always a good thing. Good for fuel efficiency, but
anyone that has ever passed a semi truck in the opposite direction while
driving a small car has probably felt the force of it push against your car.
Heavy winds can also make it somewhat difficult to drive as well.

There's other safety concerns, but those have already been mentioned.

~~~
alexhawdon
A legitimate concern, but I wonder if it could be mitigated these days by some
clever electronics sensing and compensating for this type of effect?

~~~
regularfry
The question is how you'd compensate. I don't know of any widely-deployed
variable-strength suspension. There is tech around to do it, but I don't think
it's generally available.

I'm guessing you wouldn't want to do it with the steering or brakes...

~~~
maxerickson
GM started shipping one in Cadillacs 10 years ago and uses it somewhat more
these days:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagneRide>

~~~
regularfry
Coincidentally about when I got out of the car-making business :-)

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ctdonath
Can anyone acknowledge that it's friggin' amazing they've gotten this far with
stereolithography? Yeah, it's an expensive machine which takes a long time to
crank out one instance of an object, and requires some non-"printable"
components (hey, they're not printing the engine yet!), but really: they've
gone from "impossible" to "push button and wait, some assembly required", from
making small chincy toys to major fractions of a car.

Printer costs too much? prices come down. Long production time? machines get
faster. Materials not strong enough? they're getting stronger.

Sorry if the future will be here next Tuesday instead of today.

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frozenport
Hypothesis: these folks made their prototype the same way everybody makes
their prototype, and sold it to Wired as novel by describing a standard
industrial machine as one of those 3D printer all the cool kids want.

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lutusp
> 3-D Printed Car Is as Strong as Steel ...

This is simply false. If a plastic 3D print were "as strong as steel", then we
could print an entire gun that would fire more than one round. But we can't,
because what comes out of plastic 3D printers is not remotely "as strong as
steel".

The title is hype, not reporting.

~~~
geon
The article itself isn't even saying that. It mentions the bumpers, but they
don't _need_ to be strong.

Actually, the best bumpers imho are the flexible plastic ones that just plop
back out if someone bump into it ar the parking lot.

~~~
lutusp
> The article itself isn't even saying that.

If the title says it, it doesn't matter what the article says. My objection is
to the title, and to the sleazy journalistic practice of promising something
in the title that can't be supported by the article.

"Cancer Finally Cured!" -> "researchers report modest progress in alleviating
melanoma in cockroach fingernails." (just an example, not real)

"Marijuana use leads to psychosis" -> "marijuana use correlated with a higher
rate of psychosis" (this actually happened recently, multiple examples, but
correlation is not causation)

Link:
"[http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pag...](http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Cannabis_and_psychosis)

Quote: "Cannabis use can cause drug-induced psychosis, trigger the first
episode of a psychotic illness, or make a pre-existing psychotic illness
worse."

It's entirely false, of course. There is no scientific evidence to support
these claims. It's a classic case that confuses correlation with causation.

~~~
geon
> If the title says it, it doesn't matter what the article says.

That was my point. The article title is sensationalistic without even the
article itself supporting it.

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hmottestad
Would be so cool if you could go to your local shop and they could print you a
new fender.

Though I guess those kinds of printers are really expensive and take days to
complete a fender. So I guess for a long while you'll have to have a central
location do all the printing. Which defeats the whole point really.

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ars
Interesting how he wants to install a diesel engine, but run it on pure
ethanol, and it has an electric motor too for good measure. (But no mention of
batteries apparently.)

Seems like he's trying to mention every buzzword possible, even if they
contradict.

Also, how do you repair it if it's all one piece?

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youngtaff
Not quite sure what advantages this approach has over composite based moulded
panels?

Of course carbon fibre is the composite of choice at the moment and it's
relatively expensive but surely that will change.

~~~
ph0rque
To that end, they should hire the guys behind the WikiSpeed car
(<http://www.wikispeed.com>) as consultants. Their carbon fiber✝ costs them
$800 to make.

✝Sorry, I'm an American.

~~~
youngtaff
Don't worry about the language, I live in a transatlantic world!

Wish British english would adopt more American spellings - try explaining to a
dyslexic child why label and table end differently!

~~~
ph0rque
Well, in your example, the American spelling wouldn't help unfortunately...

~~~
youngtaff
I didn't say American spelling was perfect ;-p

There's just quite a few places where it makes more sense!

------
ph0rque
Urbee2 and OrganicTransit's ELF (<http://www.organictransit.com/order.html>)
need to marry and have a baby.

------
1010011010
One wheel in the front, like a Reliant Robin? I worry about the turning
stability.

~~~
jacquesm
[http://www.frogheart.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/WOW-
Urbee...](http://www.frogheart.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/WOW-Urbee-
in-2011_2.bmp)

The single wheel is in the back.

~~~
arethuza
Like the Morgan?

<http://www.morgan3wheeler.co.uk/home.html>

------
ebbv
Plastic body panels over a metal tube frame are nothing new, and doing them
with a 3D printer is just a gimmick.

TVR made cars with tubular frames and fiberglass bodies for decades. And these
were full on cars, not 3 wheeled toys.

~~~
meaty
Yes and fiberglass or even carbon fibre takes one hell of a lot less time to
put together as well.

TVRs spontaneously combust as well thanks to the fiberglass which is rather
flammable.

~~~
oneandoneis2
> TVRs spontaneously combust

Citation needed.

IME, TVR's break down long before they get hot enough to combust.

~~~
meaty
Google images "tvr fire"

True! My cousin bought one and it broke down on the forecourt.

------
Mordor
This sounds great - can't wait to print one for myself :-)

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mtgx
It's a good thing we don't have patents on most of what cars are made of
today.

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martinced
TFA mentions "Easy reproduction" as a feature.

Only printing the body takes... _2500 hours_.

So one printer can create a body in... 105 days!

So if this was to scale to, say, 100 000 cars per year one would need 30 000
printing machines. That would be quite a huge factory and it begs the
question: who's going to produce the printers? (and how?)

~~~
Drakim
Can these industrial 3d-printers print themselves? 30 000 is nothing if you
have exponential growth.

But more seriously, I guess the speed could increase over time as the
technology is improved, and unlike human workers these could run overnight?

~~~
sageikosa
Some assembly required? I can't imagine (at the moment) printing a device with
many moving parts "in situ" as a finished product.

------
maeon3
What would impress me is an entire car, made stem to stern from 3d printers,
even if it took a year using Titanium 3d printers and plastic 3d printers.

Also he would probably make more waves/growth if he were to print up things
like all-plastic parts for the Honda accord and sell it to local garages for
1/100th of the price.

------
rorrr
"Strong as steel". I strongly doubt.

~~~
ohwp
To take some doubt away:
[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120607141644.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120607141644.htm)

~~~
rorrr
I don't doubt there are all kinds of new materials out there stronger than
steel, but the article clearly states that he uses "ABS plastic via Fused
Deposition Modeling", which is a different material and a different process.

~~~
graeham
ABS plastic is a very common hard plastic. Its the stuff used in Lego bricks
[1], for instance.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonitrile_butadiene_styrene>

~~~
rorrr
ABS is not even close to steel, especially good steel.

    
    
                                   | ABS   | Steel
        ---------------------------+-------+------------------
        Compressive strength (PSI) | 6,750 | 16,000 - 70,000
        Tensile Strength (PSI)     | 6,500 | 36,000 - 115,000 (for stress-proof steel)
    

[http://www.machinist-
materials.com/comparison_table_for_plas...](http://www.machinist-
materials.com/comparison_table_for_plastics.htm)

~~~
graeham
I believe that there are UV-resistant (sunlight) treatments for ABS. Many
polymers (plastics) are vulnerable to UV light, but are still used in outdoor
environments without major ill effects.

And yes, my earlier implication was that it is less strong than steel. A
strength-strength comparison is probably not fair here as ABS would be
considerably lighter. Even still, steel would be approximately 10X the
strength, with about 7-8X the density. A further issue is that 3D printed ABS
would not be as strong as bulk-material ABS, although I am told this is
improving.

