
Agent on Demand – Job Offer Negotiation as a Service - gregsadetsky
https://www.10xmanagement.com/agent-on-demand/
======
mtgex
This suffers from the same issue with using a real estate agent to buy / sell
a house.

Agents are not financially incentivized to get you the best offer. They are
financially incentivized for you to accept any offer, period.

The extra commission on negotiating a higher offer does not justify the time
and energy. Additionally, it increases the chances that either party will
terminate the negotiation outright.

Agents are not working for you, they are working on closing a deal and in fact
the agent and the company they're selling you to have the exact same
incentives. Get you in as quickly and as cheaply as possible.

Negotiation is more about soft skills, charisma, information obfuscation, and
outright lying than it is about fighting to get what you "deserve."

~~~
rb212nyc
I'm one of the 10x founders. Just wanted to comments here...I won't answer
every question but this one felt important to answer. My thoughts are as
follows...

There are mitigating factors as it relates to what we are offering and the
concerns you raise -- and one misunderstanding.

The misunderstanding first...we are not selling anyone to anything. We have no
involvement in finding you the job, we are not recruiters, we are not
headhunters. So we have no alignment with anyone other than YOU.

The first mitigating factor is that we offer two different negotiation
options. One is us leading the process and speaking directly to your
prosepctive employer, the other is us advising you behind the scenes and you
talk directly to your prospective employer. In both cases, we are working hand
in hand with you so nothing that is being conveyed is something you're not
endorsing. Our goal IS to get to a yes, but ONLY a yes that you feel good
about. If you don't feel good about it, then the negotiation ends and we move
on.

The other thing is that we're offering to provide this service during our beta
phase as a pay what you feel it's worth to you. You could choose to pay us
nothing...we need to EARN whatever amount you choose to pay us. So we are 100%
incentivized to be both ethical and effective during this process. Because if
we're not, you're not going to recommend us to others and you're not going to
pay us. And honestly, this business will be built and has been built almost
exclusively on recommendations and word of mouth so that's a MAJOR incentive
to us.

I do agree with you about one thing though, negotiating is NOT about fighting.
It's about presenting reasonable and substantiated reasons why certain points
should be adjusted. It's about knowing the myriad of areas TO negotiate. It's
about understanding the standards and practices across different verticals.
And most importantly it's about truly understanding what YOU want out of a
deal. Fighting has NO place in this process.

As a concluding comment, agenting is a VERY old profession and widely used in
many other verticals. There is a very good reason for this, put simply, most
people are not the best at advocating for themselves. But if that doesn't
describe you, if you possess all the knowledge required to get you the best
deal possible, that's great. No need for our help. Otherwise, let us prove to
you why there is a difference. If you don't like it, don't pay us.

~~~
yanslookup
> One is us leading the process and speaking directly to your prosepctive
> employer,

This is exactly what I want and would pay for. However, I wonder how this
works in practice. I work for a fairly well known software company and am
involved in the hiring process and I can say with about 90% certainty that
negotiations would cease as soon as a candidate presented representation. And
my gut is telling me that is the norm in the software industry.

Can you speak to this concern? Have you run in to this or has this come up at
all for past clients?

~~~
rb212nyc
I think this is a very fair point. The way we have dealt with it thus far is
to provide guidance behind the scenes if a company doesn't want to speak to us
directly. The candidate would stay the face of the process and we would feed
them information. That said, when we started 10x, it was unheard of for tech
freelancers to have agents. We got some push back. But that changed fairly
quickly and we get zero push back now. On the contrary, companies are
genuinely happy to have someone like us as an intermediary (on the freelance
side). We shall see if the same holds true on the full time side. But good
question.

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gregsadetsky
I just wanted to add a testimonial & a bit of context about the above link.
I've been on the 10x Management engineering roster for 5 years now, and
they've always been stellar at finding clients and freelance gigs, negotiating
and closing deals, etc. They recently expanded their "beta" testing of a new
service they've rolled out called Agent on Demand (in short they help top
engineers to negotiate their new, fulltime, employment contracts), and I was
lucky enough to be one of the first people to benefit from their guidance
during a hiring process.

10x played the roll of an advisor/mentor, guiding me in the negotiation -- on
salary, benefits, figuring out what I wanted, etc. They were fantastic in
this: instead of feeling like I was in the dark, not knowing what I could ask
for, not being sure of my next move, I was coached into asking for the things
I wanted (and/or that I didn't think I could get) and ended up very happy with
the resulting package (PTO, clear definition of my role, etc.) Having an
experienced "wingman" helps, tremendously...!

If you've got a real job offer and want help negotiating it, I would recommend
trying them out - and during this expanded beta period, the service is pay
what you want, so it's quite reasonable to engage them. Happy to answer
questions. Cheers

~~~
tibbetts
What was the percentage impact on cash compensation between initial offer and
outcome? Do you think the company hiring you went outside the range they
originally planned, or did you/10x get them to change how they thought about
the role/you?

~~~
gregsadetsky
Compensation was higher, but to me there was much more, just as the
employer/employee relationship is... much more.

Generally speaking, it "freaked me out" that this negotiation (happening at
the very beginning of employment) would decide so many things going forward.
The feeling of "this is my only chance" was weighing down on me.

In using this service:

\- 10x both coached and represented me during the negotiations (reducing my
stress)

\- they (10x) validated that I was getting a good deal in terms of
compensation

\- it definitely changed the employer's perspective to see that I had an agent
working on my behalf (they understood that I was taking this seriously)

\- benefits-wise, I received a generous PTO offer and remote work options that
suited my travel plans

------
gowld
Here's the baseline that AoD has to beat:

patio11's classic blog post has put $millions in the pockets of new hires.

[https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-
negotiation/](https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/)

------
sbrother
Another quick testimonial -- I've been working with Michael and Rishon at 10x
for about two years ago, and these guys are fantastic. They supplement my own
dealflow (which is purely word-of-mouth) with their own PR/marketing operation
and network, and have brought me several clients I never would have had access
to on my own. They help with rate negotiation, back-office chores like
billing, and even collecting delinquent payments. I'm earning more than I was
as an engineer at Google, and enjoying a much more flexible lifestyle. I
highly recommend them.

~~~
htormey
Could you talk a little bit more about your situation and how you work with
these guys?

I assume you are a contractor, can you tell us a little bit about your
background and give us an example of how they helped you find work? Thanks.

~~~
sbrother
Absolutely, with the caveat that the service this link describes is different
than the one they provide for me.

I have an engineering background building machine learning/NLP services (think
ad servers, chatbots, search engines etc), including at a few startups and on
an ads quality team at Google (linkedin.com/in/sbrother). I had taken a few
consulting gigs throughout my career, but I finally quit to pursue full time
software consulting two years ago. At that point I signed up with 10x
management in an effort to bring in leads to supplement those from my own
network.

They have a loose network of ~100 similar freelancers, running the whole gamut
of software development niches. They do their best to match clients (that's
us) with customers, but will send leads out over an email list if not sure.
They'll set up the first meeting, and if that goes well they'll help with rate
negotiation and later on billing. For all this they take 15% of each invoice.
From my perspective it is a fantastic deal -- they helped negotiate my
standard rate up by 75% and have brought in some very large contracts for me.
Their business has helped me scale mine to the point I've been able to hire an
employee and take some time off for "paternity leave" without losing my entire
income stream. I highly recommend working with them if their services look
useful to you.

~~~
htormey
That actually sounds pretty interesting. Thanks for adding more information
about what these guys.

I’m a mobile engineer who used to work at Apple/Facebook who’s gone down a
similar path and now I work as a consultant/contractor. I think I’ve done a
pretty good job sourcing work for myself but I’d love to talk shop with you
sometime if you are interested.

------
chopete
For same reason one of the founders mentioned >> most people are not the best
at advocating for themselves

Is there a service to help negotiate a better raise? (Of course, working
behind the scenes)

I presume this is a struggle for every employee everywhere, every year
throughout the career.

I managed to do better a few times by writing a nice email but many a times I
just lacked the energy to compose such emails and settled for whatever is
offered.

------
ironix
I see testimonies here in comments by freelancers who are using 10xmanagement
to source work. This specific product posted here seems to be for something
else: you have a gig lined up, but want to be represented.

I appreciate the endorsements, but am now curious about the main product: how
do I get on the 10xmanagement list of software engineers to be considered for
gigs? I don't see a publicly visible way to apply. Is it really via referral
only?

If so, where do I go to find a referral? Luck? Research existing "10x
developers" and get them to like me?

What are the requirements to becoming a "10xer," aside from the potential for
referral?

EDIT: Ah, I did not read the FAQ:
[https://www.10xmanagement.com/faq/](https://www.10xmanagement.com/faq/) \--
tl;dr as the response below suggests, probably need to contact them. As far as
I can tell, they're basically operating as a standalone agency, so it's not
much different than applying for a job interview anywhere else.

~~~
gregsadetsky
My other comment in this thread is not only a testimonial for the "main" 10x
service, but also for this specific Agent on Demand one, which I've benefited
from last year. See the 2nd paragraph [1].

> I appreciate the endorsements, but am now curious about the main product:
> how do I get on the 10xmanagement list of software engineers to be
> considered for gigs?

There's a "Become a 10xer" button on the home page, right at the bottom. It
links to this page [2].

Although I do not work for 10x, I am a very happy "client" (I'm a client since
they represent me -- it still confuses me after 5 years). Feel free to email
me with any questions! gs @ (my hn username).com

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16494681](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16494681)

[2] [http://info.10xmanagement.com/contact-us-
become-10xer](http://info.10xmanagement.com/contact-us-become-10xer)

------
qume
I have no opinion whatsoever on this service but I believe everybody should be
represented by a professional third party in any meaningful negotiation.

Unless it's something trivial like selling a used car or a job you will commit
the vast majority of your life to.

------
zaphirplane
How much do they charge

~~~
gregsadetsky
During the extended beta period, they are "pay what you want". If you qualify,
it's most definitely worth it.

------
paultopia
This has no information about the qualifications, details of how the service
works, or price. At least not on mobile. And the one link (to a form) delivers
an error page. Maybe the YouTube video has that info (??)

------
webmaven
To more closely model the frequent negotiations in the entertainment industry,
how about using AoD to negotiate for raises?

That could happen once or twice a year for each user (instead of every 3 years
on average), even if they remain at the same job for the same employer.

And even if the negotiation goal is something other than a base salary raise
(more vacation time, attending conferences), Pay-what-you-want still works.

------
tostitoes
this particular service is already fully served by sites like paysa, payscal
and glassdoor.

if this was launched pre-internet it may have been a successful one.

i would never subscribe to this.

there are similar services which claim to reduce our internet bills but
somewhere buried in their terms and conditions will be a line which says ones
we register with then they will have the authority and choice to negotiate the
duration of contract or other aspects of it and we will only have one more
issue to deal with.

this is bad.

did u notice, it is free during the beta stage, that's how they lure u in. if
its a authentic and credible service it need not be free when beta. one would
be happy to pay for it if it really adds value and doesn't subtract value. but
this service may seem like it might add some negligible value in the short
term but will end up subtracting value for the larger community in the long
run.

i think this is how insurance came into picture and we all know how money
sucking it ended up and leading to poor health care and bloated up prices.

i feel like this whole thing is unnecessary. anybody else with me?

the sooner this industry goes out of business its good for everyone, assuming
if it exists at all... no body wants one more middle man taking a cut from my
paycheck.

the businesses are better paying the good amount to us then have behind the
scenes dealings with the negotiator and pay him a fee for the work that the
employee is going to do for years.

i am sure a smart person would know how to negotiate their package and some
organizations may directly reject to work with any negotiator and will figure
out if we are getting inputs from a negotiator behind the scenes.

We will not have the authority or even be aware if such a negotiating
organization is working behind our back with other organizations to limit our
package.

one organization will massively benefit by teaming up with many other
organizations then supporting the individual candidates who wont be powerful
enough to sue you in case of any issue in at least most cases.

------
swissChoc
Say, I am right now interviewing and about to get an offer, how to make them
help me?

~~~
gregsadetsky
Click the orange button :-)

[https://www.10xmanagement.com/agent-on-
demand/](https://www.10xmanagement.com/agent-on-demand/)

~~~
PenguinCoder
Looks like some error page for me: "We had some trouble loading this form.
Click here to continue."

Clicking results in another error "This form didn't load. Please try again
later."

~~~
gregsadetsky
Are you running an ad blocker? I'm wondering if that might be interfering.

Just loaded the form using the direct URL [1] and it worked fine. Try in an
incognito window, just to make sure?

[1] [https://www.10xmanagement.com/agent-on-
demand/](https://www.10xmanagement.com/agent-on-demand/)

------
exabrial
I feel like we're reaching peak software "engineering" if this is becoming a
reality... I guess props to these guys for inventing an interesting service in
the free market.

