
I'm 28 and frustrated – can I still have programming career? - comatory
For past two or three years I have felt very unfulfilled. I have background in video production&#x2F;editing (Avid, Final Cut, After Effects) with 6+ years of experience, including national TV broadcast.
But for past 4 years that I was employed I wasn&#x27;t feeling very happy, it took energy out of me. I was so unhappy that I quit my current job few months ago and relocated to Canada to clear my head.
Now that I&#x27;m working as a labourer in construction I realize how easy I had it in my old job (I had own office, good salary, recognized by peers etc).<p>But I wanna enter IT industry, I&#x27;ve been around computers all my life (started on Commodore 64). Since I was 13 I dabbled with web development and I can set up blogs&#x2F;static sites pretty easily. In January I started to learn to program in Python which you could say was my first real programming experience (I guess HTML, CSS doesn&#x27;t count).
It&#x27;s going slow since I do it after work, I don&#x27;t know anyone now who&#x27;s a programmer so I go to SO all the time.<p>Now I&#x27;m 28, doing manual labour and dreaming about being a developer. I am just worried that I&#x27;m not gonna cut it ... I cannot afford to go study computer science but I have motivation to learn on my own.<p>I would be SO happy if I could do some entry-level programming. I&#x27;d be grateful for all the boring stuff programmers complain about - I&#x27;d even take smaller salary just to have experience (but I need to earn to pay for rent).<p>I just don&#x27;t know how to do it. I&#x27;m feeling kind of scared and depressed about life.<p>TL;DR I really want to become programmer but I am worried it&#x27;s too late for me.
======
jqm
I'm 43. I programmed Basic as a kid on my TSR-80 and tinkered around a bit
with things like HTML over the years but didn't consider programming as a
career.

I got a degree in an unrelated field, did a lot of different things including
manual labor, being a grower on a farm, working on a concrete crew etc. I had
a construction contracting business with employees for over 5 years that fed
me but eventually went bust. I then got a job as a project manager for a large
outfit and was paid fairly well for nearly 10 years. It was extremely
stressful with long hours and lots of travel.

I wanted to learn more about programming but just didn't have the time nor
discipline. So finally, with a bit of money saved up, I just flat quit about 3
years ago. I started learning Python, Linux, SQL and JavaScript. All day every
day. I wrote a bunch of junky projects, found out why they were junky, and did
them better next time. I did odds and ends, fixed computers for folks here and
there, cut my standard of living back, and kept reading and learning.

I got a break when some people I knew with a mission critical Access business
application asked if I could help fix it. I re-wrote it using HTML, Python and
Sqlite, set it up on a server, and they could access it from home. They were
tickled pink and I got a little more work. It still wasn't enough to pay all
the bills though. But I had a number of projects at this point. None on
github, but that's not my world. A few weeks ago I saw an ad for a web
developer at a large institution here in town (small town...far away from the
tech centers) redoing their internal web applications. I went in, talked to
the manager (an old perl programmer), gave him links to a few of my projects,
(they got a lot better over the years), some sample code and was hired just
like that. I start on Monday. I won't make as much initially as I did project
managing but hey.... I'm excited. I have the programming bug and it's all I
want to do. And I'm an old guy comparatively. So yes, it can be done.....

~~~
vive1
Yeah really an inspiring start you have.

All you need to do is just tweak your mindset and start believing in yourself
and then the real magic happens.

------
caw
You shouldn't worry about it. I worked with a guy that was did construction
for at least 10 years before he went into a tech field. If that massive career
shift didn't impact him, a few months while you finish up your self study
definitely won't. I believe it show initiatives to a potential employer that
you're trying to improve yourself and took a pretty hard job in the meantime
to pay the bills.

------
aharonovich
Life is long and careers are very short nowadays. While it's true that a CS
degree from IV league school and a hacker career in google is probably quite
difficult for you I assure you that for the more common jobs it is much more
appreciated by employers that you have the skills to learn new material alone.
I am now 33. I've been working in the investment industry since I was 17 and
only when I was 28 I've changed carrers - to IT. It was very easy for me since
(much like yourself) I loved learning alone and was always fascinated by
computers. Last year I've changed careers again - this time to tech
investments. If employers won't give you a chance, don't give them the
opportunity to decline. Be creative. For example, try getting work as QA in
start-ups and then move to junior dev inside the company, or take on web
projects for free, bid low on Elance etc.

~~~
cylinder
How did you do the change? I'm at the same age and want to make a change. Not
to programming but some sort of IT, IT management, etc., not working a
helpdesk, not programming. I'm currently a professional in an unrelated field
(but one that the corporate world would appreciate in an IT professional), but
as I've been on computers since the early 90s at age 8, I feel I made a
mistake not pursuing my childhood obsession, in what was then a niche hobby,
as a career. Is it possible to make this change and go into something like IT
project management, architecture etc?

Any advice?

~~~
aharonovich
Yes, I have some advice, I'll start by telling you what I did. I had my mind
set on going into high-tech for the same reasons you've described. I met with
a startup that was bootstrapping his BI product at 2008, and convinced them to
let me do sales & PS for them - for free, meaning I would only get paid if I
sold the product and managed to sell some PS hours. In return they supplied
training on their BI tool, naturally I had to learn a whole lot by myself -
basic things that were then new for me - DB, sql etc, but I didn't mind since
I loved computers since ever. After a few months of not selling almost nothing
(wow, great surprise) my funds were running low, but I was already a different
person. I knew what is a product, I knew what is a DB and how to connect to it
etc, so I've found a junior job at a Qlikview (another BI tool) PS company. I
picked up QV very fast and became very good with it, and after one year at the
job was already the company's lead on financial BI. After this year I already
had the technical expertise to get a job that combined my new career with my
old career and became an IT economist, no longer a junior, in charge of
migrating the organization's financial systems to SAP and maintaining the
existing systems until the change.

My advice - just get in IT. Don't mind starting from the bottom, in the grand
scheme of things 2-3 years of reduced salary is nothing. Look for a job in the
IT of your field, for example, since I had financial background it was easy
for me to get a job in financial BI, but I could get a job in any financial IT
system as helpdesk, PS etc. To get this job you might have to get into a
course or even learn some new skills at home after work. If you want specific
ideas you can write here or email me your experience.

~~~
cylinder
Thanks for taking the time to share your story; it's inspirational. I used to
do things like what you did -- just approach people out of nowhere and offer
to work for free, I guess I've lost that drive as I've gotten a bit older.

Since I'm currently self-employed, but business is a bit slow atm, I may be in
a position to do something like that. I've been building sites, scripts, mysql
dbs etc on an amateur level since I was 15, so I think I could pick up this
stuff quickly.

I will take you up on the offer and email (is it username @gmail?) you as I
could definitely use some guidance from someone who's been there. First I'll
be doing more research to get caught up so as not to waste your time. Thanks!

~~~
aharonovich
No problem, it's aharonovich@gmail.com, feel free. I'm sure you can do it,
Anyone that reads HN can do it.

------
productionQA
In a similar position as you, only a year younger. I hear of these 16 year old
interns all the time and with a 10 year difference, I am constantly worried I
am too far behind the curve. I have no formal CS "schooling" but I love to
learn and learning comes naturally to me, so I've picked up quite a bit. To
solidify my knowledge, I am thinking of going to one of the bootcamps and make
my way into the industry.

That being said, as someone below mentions, I am TERRIFIED that even though I
spend most of my free time coding, it will be far less enjoyable as a full-
time career. But, on the flip side, I really do enjoy creating and building
things with code.

I hate testing, I rather not work with someone else's code, etc. I love
building. I would just have to set myself up to work for companies that are in
the building stage where I am constantly working on something new. I think
that can certainly be done.

Here is what it comes down to for me and why I am heading in this direction
and why it is never too late:

\- I have dreams that involve technology (building things, running my own
company)

\- If my dreams fail, what profession is going to set my up for long-term
success and is going to be sustainable for the next 30 years. And I rather do
it now at ~28 than regret not doing it in another 5 years. (Engineering)

\- I want to work in an industry that is moving the world forward with
extremely intelligent people. (Goes back to, my job means nothing.)

\- And most importantly, there are examples and inspirations all over the
world that show why it is never to late and that you can do what you put your
mind to. The human mind and body is an unbelievable specimen. It will be hard,
but you just have to decide. Just decide and go do it. Don't waste time
because life is pathetically short. And you can be whoever you want to be.

It is your choice to wake up with a smile on your face everyday and to put a
smile on other's faces. We all have to work to live, but what you do outside
of your profession and how you have fun with your profession is what it is all
about.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-jwWYX7Jlo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-jwWYX7Jlo)

~~~
comatory
Yep that's kind of my deal too. I don't like testing at all but I accept it as
a part of the job. What draws me to programming is the creativity and building
things. I know that most IT jobs aren't really creative but the experience you
gather is great and I can always code in my free time. I really enjoy it so
most of the time when I'm learning new stuff, it's fun to me.

------
LiweiZ
I'm 32 now and come from a branding/marketing background. I have a degree
related to mathematics and accounting (accounting can be interesting, but most
part of it is boring). I came to Canada from China. So my previous experience
is close to useless here.

I'm building my first app now. And it has been delayed as hell (already cost
me one year full time on it, my family live on our previous savings) since I'm
the only one to work on it. There are just too many things needed to be done.
UI design, information architecture, strategy... The most challenging part is
writing code for both ends. I have almost zero knowledge of programming. Even
most of the tasks/concepts seems easy, however, there are simply too many to
learn and practise. It goes worse when they come together. But I still want to
ship my app, because I want to use it and I'm fascinating to test the idea. I
want to see the result. Even with the worst result, I'll gain enough skills
and cases to start a career in programming.

So just hang in there, no one is able to learn programming for you. If you
don't fix question A today, it will be still there tomorrow and get in your
way. Little by little, I think you'll see some results in 6 months. It's not a
short period. But compared with our life span, it is worth it. Like others
said, building something is a good way to have a learning/practice path. Good
luck to you and all fellows in the same boat.

~~~
abhishivsaxena
If you would elaborate what specific challenges you are facing learning, I am
sure someone here wouldn't mind giving you advice.

~~~
LiweiZ
I do use google/StackOverflow a lot. Here are some concepts and code I was
struggling with:

1\. How server works

2\. Http related concepts

3\. Auth mechanism and password security, which encoding method to go

4\. Database options, neo4j/mongodb/sql

5\. Language options, ruby/js/golang

6\. Framework options, emberjs/flask/martini/rails

7\. Testing

Above are just some challenges I faced. As I mentioned previously, a single
part in any field is not difficult to grasp, but to understand X, learners
like me probably have to go further to have some idea of prerequisite
knowledge. The time and energy on this can not be neglected. It also takes
time to have new knowledge fully absorbed (or to a useful level). Before that,
things can be chaos in my mind.

Perhaps my way to learn and practise is not very efficient. I did make
progress, though. It's just a bit slow. I'm about to finish my client-side
coding in a couple of months. Hopefully, I can ship before winter.

[Edit] Format revised

------
srid68
I am 47 years old now and started to change my profession from Mechanical
engineering to IT at the age of 29 years

As a failed entrepreneur in India i came to Singapore as a Mechanical engineer
in 2006 and observed that IT was paying far better salary than mechanical and
immediately went back to India after i had got my permanent residency for a 3
months study and came back and got a job in IT by telling my Hiring Manager to
give me any salary for 3 months and if i am able to deliver give me good
salary and was able to deliver.

Once i entered IT field i grew to senior project manager and spent too much
time managing other developers and got hit by the start-up bug in 2008.

Unfortunately even though i was very technical, i did not have any programming
experience and had to pick up everything by starting again.

If i can pick up again at 41 you can definitely pick up programming at 28.

The addictive part of programming is the problem solving aspect and the boring
part is the actual writing (validation, idiot proofing, re-factoring) of good
programs.

If you spend more time on the Problem solving aspects of programming, you will
be able to learn more faster. Ex. Since you are working in construction, does
your company require any useful information to be captured in a database using
a website which they are currently doing in excel. Solve these types of
problems and your skill will improve.

Find a problem to solve and solve it yourself by programming you will find it
is faster and more interesting and you will persevere and ultimately succeed.

The problem gives you focus and solving the problem will give you skill.

------
aggieben
Short answer: yes, of course. A great many programmers are very young, and so
I think our industry tends to get pretty myopic when it comes to career arcs,
and even just time in general. There are many, many professional programmers
who have less than 5 years training+experience combined. This isn't to say
that _more_ experience and training won't open doors, because it will. But
what I _am_ saying is that there's no reason to despair.

Consider: if you devoted yourself to reading and working on open-source
projects or even some contracting, going to workshops/codeathons, local user
groups, and etc., you could built up some expertise and even a pretty decent
portfolio of work within a few short years. Give it even just 2-3 years of
being disciplined with it, and you could very possibly have more to show for
it than some who have been coasting in the industry for far longer. After 3
years, you would be only 31, and you could have a programming career for 20-30
years, if you so desired.

Bottom line: you can do it. But you gotta be ready to work hard and jump into
things.

------
krapp
I'm more or less where you are (even formerly worked at a (local) tv station
doing graphics and editing) only ten years older. I decided to take
programming seriously because when I was laid off, it was a hobby and really
the only other thing I was marginally good at.

The answer is - probably yes. I built a Linkedin profile and taught myself to
use Github and created some projects and published some wordpress plugins over
a couple of years. Since I also had a graphics degree (apparently worthless),
I made some logos and a couple of wordpress sites for people, for pocket
change. Nothing much has happened yet - occasional freelance work and I'm
interning at a startup but, you know, it's probably never as hopeless as you
think.

------
comatory
Just to clear things out: I already did Learn Python The Hard Way all the way
through and I think I understood like 90 percent of it (the last two exercises
were a bit too much for me).

For now, I think I could focus on web development since I can setup Wordpress
blogs or static pages and tweak CSS. My goal would be to become mobile app
programmer/embedded programmer. So I thought about learning Swift - it's new I
know but it feels a bit like Python.

I want to treat my self-teaching as something serious - set aside at least 10h
weekly which I think I can do. It's just sad feeling for me ... new city,
totally new job. But you all are encouraging while also setting real
expectations = I'm determined to do this.

I will try to figure this out without CS degree. Taking a year off of work
just to learn programming is something I might be able to do financially, I
can just move out of Canada back home where it's 5x less expensive or to South
East Asia where it's even less to focus on this.

I think the reason why I fear this is because I have no connection to other
programmers. I am not shy, actually quite opposite, I have "cool" hobbies
(film making, bmx bikes, music) but smart people are kind of intimidating,
even more so when I'd like to discuss my projects with them.

Anyway, so far I programmed this little CLI utility (just to paint you a
picture how "far" I've come from non-programming to newbie since Jan) ->
[https://pypi.python.org/pypi?name=flashCardStudy&version=1.0...](https://pypi.python.org/pypi?name=flashCardStudy&version=1.0.4&:action=display)

Anyway I want to thank everyone for their input. I discussed how frustrated I
am with my life with my girlfriend and she totally supports me - she'd be
willing to push me through school = universities are "free" (paid from taxes)
in my country so I just need money for rent and food. We have CS programmes
where you obtain bachelor degree in three years but it's heavily connected to
math which I kinda suck at. We'll see.

~~~
merrua
If you think you suck at maths, you might want to go through the Kahn academy
videos. It will refresh anything you did cover and should fill a lot of gaps
(of stuff you did but never understood properly). It will then make tackling
CS level maths a lot easier.

------
zer0zzz
Being a programmer is not everything it is cracked up to be. My work involves
much of what is considered to be at the top of the programmer food chain, but
I am still unfulfilled and wish that I had been a park ranger or something
like that instead.

~~~
pations9
I have the exact same feeling.. I think coding for a hobby and coding for a
job is something really different.

------
kjhughes
Our field is wonderful in the way it encourages and rewards those who, with or
without formal training, make things people want.

Learn by doing.

And if you feel now or in the future that you'd like a dash of fundamentals to
go with your programming practice, you have options beyond those of
traditional education. For example, Udacity has a great Introduction to
Computer Science online class:

[https://www.udacity.com/course/cs101](https://www.udacity.com/course/cs101)

The free courseware includes the lectures and auto-graded exercises. It's
Python-based, but goes beyond programming languages to touch on foundational
CS concepts in general. Recommended.

------
mkremer90
Don't believe anything you hear about a job requiring a 2-4 year CS degree.
What's important here is that you know your stuff. Keep teaching yourself
programming in your spare time (Python is a good choice, there's a higher
dollar amount associated with Python devs compared to some other languages). I
don't have a degree at all, and I'm currently working at my second development
position making a lot more than I ever could have wished for, even if I had
gotten a degree. Just keep on learning, and once you're comfortable, look for
some places around you that are hiring, and don't be afraid to apply!

------
edpichler
If you like your current job, I think you should stay there. You can program
in your spare time and try to build a good software.

As you are in a manual job, I think the end of the day you will not be so
tired mentally, and you will have more energy to program stuff you like. In a
company, probably, and most in the start of you career, you will got more
boring stuff to do, and you will cannot choose what you want to do. Have you
thought about this?

Beside of all of this, you need to choose what do you really like to do, if
everything goes wrong, you can change again. Your experience will never be
lost. Good luck!

------
mostlybadfly
Never give up. Start learning the languages you want to work with. The
resources are out there and the community is more than supportive.

I'm 31 and just started to learn, I do get a little frustrated at times, but
ultimately I know I'm good enough to get to the level of getting hired
somewhere. The more you work on little side projects and ask questions, the
more you realize that it is within reach.

When I was in grad school, I was 21, most of my colleagues were 30 and a
couple in their 40s, who wanted to be professors. Just go after what you want
and have fun while doing it.

------
ericathegreat
Have you considered going along to a couple of meetups around the sort of
technology you're interested in working with? There are a lot of wordpress
meetups around the world, for example. Or maybe even going along to a
hackathon, if you'd like to try something a bit more deep tech? Those are both
pretty low risk ways of meeting some other people who are into programming,
see if you feel comfortable with the sort of work that gets done? It's also a
good way of getting yourself known (leading to possible job offers).

------
necavi
Not very helpful but personally I'm in a very similar situation - I've always
worked on programming since I was a kid but never had the opportunity to get a
degree and every single programming job in my area requires at minimum a 2
year CS degree, so I took a job as an industrial electrician which
unfortunately means throwing out almost all of the knowledge that I've worked
my entire life for.

I'd be very interested to see what others have to say about this, I doubt if
it is a very uncommon problem at the moment.

~~~
ramigb
tl;dr just go for it, don't care for the requirements, impress them.

Why i'm saying this? well ...

I don't have a CS degree, matter of fact i dropped out of university, i got
hired three times as a developer in three different companies with a very good
salary (compared to Palestine standards, since i live in Palestine), i
switched jobs because i hated working for someone, so the last job i quit i
decided to start my own startup, and now i am into a lot of programming
projects.

I program in Ruby, JavaScript, PHP, C#, ActionScript, Java, and i play with
other languages, i taught my self all that, so my friend you can do this and
even do better, jut believe in your skills.

~~~
comatory
Read your whole answer, thanks. I decided I'm gonna go for it no matter what.

------
cowbell
Didn't start programming professionally until my early 30s. Quit my job to do
it. Spent 9 months with no job teaching myself before landing my first job in
software.

------
wturner
I taught myself ( and continue to teach myself) programming by displacing my
audio background which is similar to yours ( just replace all the video suite
applications you mentioned with audio daw's like Pro Tools, Logic etc) and I
learned JavaScript in parallel with the web audio api. I would suggest it
might benefit you to you possibly follow the same path but learn the video-esk
api's like Web RTC.

------
jamiecarruthers
I recently hired a 30 year old Rails developer who had completed a 3 month
Rails crash course in London. He was an archeologist beforehand with no prior
programming experience.

I'm so impressed with how it has turned out, I'm looking to make my next hire
from the next batch of recruits.

If you can't afford a crash course like the one I mentioned, try Code Academy
and Treehouse.

It is definitely not too late for you!

------
ramigb
I commented on a comment in this thread, but anyways, i just want to tell you,
go for it! it's NEVER too late.

------
homeliss
Wow, this is so cool to read!

It reminds of exactly how I felt two years ago, before I quit my job chopping
up bloody cows at a meatworks and "became" a programmer. If I can do it, so
can you!

Like you, I thought my lack of connections or programming friends was the
biggest hurdle. I came up with the following plan to get started:

1\. Build five small apps that I can put on my resume, and are built for some
specific end-user (or group). 2\. Regularly contribute to an open source
project I believe in 3\. Attend programming meetups to be around "programming
people" (I attended Python and Functional Programming meetups)

I did not spend time on stackoverflow or blogging about code because they
weren't the biggest thing I could do to get business. They were part of my
plan originally but someone pointed this out and I took them off.

To build my resume I would build demos for small job adverts on Elance. I
wouldn't apply for the job, only slowly complete it and put it on my resume so
I appeared valuable. Later, I earned $1,350 over 5 months, before a small
startup in Australia found my resume, liked the look of it, and asked me to
join their team (earning more money that I've earned in my whole life!).

I didn't make any friends at the meetups but I'm 100% SURE you could. The
groups were sponsored by local software companies, who provided office space
and pizza in return for advertising their job openings. Other attendees would
let everyone know about openings at their own company etc. The friendly,
honest vibe will give you a much better chance than an interview, where
there's a ton of pressure on the interviewer to pick a good person.

Read this, it's a great discussion about getting hired without "on the job
experience": [http://www.quora.com/Computer-Programming/If-programmers-
are...](http://www.quora.com/Computer-Programming/If-programmers-are-in-such-
demand-why-are-companies-not-hiring-people-with-skills-that-lack-on-the-job-
experience)

Also read this, don't get scared by the high level answers:
[http://www.quora.com/Programming-Interviews/Whats-the-
best-w...](http://www.quora.com/Programming-Interviews/Whats-the-best-way-to-
prepare-for-a-software-engineering-job-interview) \- While you should
definitely try learn as much as you can, at your stage you should concentrate
on demonstrating your creativity, problem solving, willingness to work hard
and ability to get results. Those questions are for programmers with high
salaries on the line (but definitely read them)

Ramit Sethi's Earn1K course also helped. It taught me to communicate, sell my
skills and find freelance work:
[http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/announcing-the-
ear...](http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/announcing-the-earn-your-
first-1000-on-the-side-course/) (It paid for itself in 3 months)

The funnest way I've ever seen to do this (but expensive) is to completely
immerse yourself during a programming bootcamp and surround yourself with the
industry and like-minded people for a few weeks. Check out the following
thread and scroll down to "Physical Academies":
[http://www.quora.com/Learning-to-Program/What-are-the-
best-w...](http://www.quora.com/Learning-to-Program/What-are-the-best-ways-
for-a-complete-beginner-to-learn-programming)

Edit: If you've got time for a podcast, here's the story of a hollywood
filmmaker (Jesse Lawler) who quit his job during the recession, became a
programmer, and now runs a successful development agency:
[http://www.tropicalmba.com/distributed/](http://www.tropicalmba.com/distributed/)
(I liked the interview so much that I emailed him my "plan" back when I
started. He gave me great advice and helped me refine my three steps above :)

Wow, sorry I babbled quite a bit, but I hope I shared at least one new and
helpful thing with you!

~~~
comatory
Wow thanks for all the input. I already decided I want to do this. What do you
think of Python Group meetups? What are they like?

------
gdi2290
check out HackReactor.com which is the CS degree for the 21st century

~~~
CmonDev
Computer Science not detected.

