

Ask HN: Is college for everyone? - ronakgp94

College definitely isn't for everyone in my opinion. I know for a fact it isn't for me, however my parents tend to disagree. My co-founder and I just applied for the summer session of Y-Combinator last week after beginning development on our mobile app and website. However, attending college while trying to form a company tends to be rather difficult. All I want to do when I wake up is work on our company, read techcrunch articles, and fix designs. Sitting in a lecture hall learning about macroeconomics is the last thing I want to do. My parents on the other hand see college as a "sense of security” -which is understandable. But I know that if I dropped out of college and worked day and night on our company, along with my co-founder, we can really make it big. My parents don't seem to buy that and think that it's just a little project on the side that we do when we have time. However, what they don't know is the one-hour of sleep we get every night and the minimal amount of effort we put into school, while putting 110% into our company. After negotiating with them for several weeks, they agreed that if our team is accepted to Y-Combinator, they will let me drop out of college and let me pursue my dream. I'm really hoping this works out, knowing internally I just can't return to college next semester at NYU and do this all over again! I just really want to work on the company we are creating 24-7. I find pleasure in knowing that one day everyone with a smartphone and cash will be using our app (teaser). So here are a few questions for you:<p>What do you think about dropping out? What if you had kids? Would you let them? Cheers!
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willholloway
If you listen to your parents and waste four or five years at college you will
be financially worse off and regret it. Your parents care about you and think
they are giving you good advice but they are not.

The world is changing too fast to wait four years to start your life. You will
have a four year head start over your peers that went to school if you stop
now.

22 or 23 is too late to start life in the 21st century. College will waste
your time. You are thirsty for knowledge and there is more to learn online
than you can learn in the classroom.

I would recommend getting some consulting work and make your own money as soon
as possible so your parents have less power over you.

In a couple years they will see the wisdom of your decision.

Edit:

> What do you think about dropping out? What if you had kids? Would you let
> them? Cheers!

I say drop out. My plan for my kids (if they are above average intelligence)
is for them to get a GED at 16 and start their real adult life at that point.
High school and college are relics in my opinion. Our current conception of
school is very recent, and I believe we delay adulthood far too long.

Edit 2:

Learn macro economics on your own. Read, all the time. You can learn much
faster than your peers in classrooms if you are a dedicated autodidact.

~~~
olso4052
Dude, at least be reasonable with your response.

True, college is not for everyone. But this kid is posting a question that
could potentially impact the rest of his life. Is this really the level-headed
advice he should hear:

"If you listen to your parents and waste four or five years at college you
will be financially worse off and regret it. Your parents care about you and
think they are giving you good advice but they are not."

To be honest, that's shit. It's ignorant, and no better than calling everyone
without degrees a bum.

What should be said is pretty much what his parents are hinting at. Go to
college for security, unless you have something really special lined up. Trust
me, it is very very hard to get a good job without a degree (and still hard to
get a good job with one). You can still have plenty of time to work on side
projects while in school. You can always go to school later, but it never gets
any easier.

Edit: man, there is just so much to be said after re-reading all this. And
each time I disagree with you more. The fact you are so absolute, that fact
that you are so wrong...

Look 23 is not too late for anything. The world moves fast now, but evolution
in a person occurs much longer than ever before. You change for a long time.
It's not capped by 28.

Do whatever you want for your kids, but I suggest keep a close-minded idea
like that to yourself. You don't have to embrace college as the end all, but
do realize the world we are living in.

~~~
willholloway
Everyone is going to tell ronakgp94 to go to college -- society, parents,
family, everybody. I am offering an alternate view point based on my own
experience. College has entrenched itself so firmly in our consciousness that
I am not a real threat to it's sway.

Please, don't make me drink the hemlock.

There is a reason that ronakgp94 is even asking this question. Things have
changed, times have changed. There are options for self education that did not
exist even ten years ago. The field that he is going into is one where getting
a good job without a college degree is almost trivial.

Listen to the words that he is saying. He doesn't like school, he doesn't want
to be there, he wants to work on his product.

olso4052, I'm being earnest relaying a seldom heard view point. I have a tale
to tell of the darker side of academia. Hear me out, and keep an open mind. I
spoke in absolutes because of the strength of my conviction on this topic. I
don't expect everyone to agree with me, I know most don't.

College is hell if you don't want to be there. It creates an environment of
chronic low level stress. Low level stress leads to depression. Scientists
need depressed rats in order to test the efficacy of an anti-depressant. They
get depressed rats by exposing them to chronic low level stress. It works
every time.

There is a reason suicide rates are high among college students. Academia
often creates high pressure pointless busy work and unrealistic deadlines.

Many campuses have a culture of binge drinking. Chronic stress and binge
drinking lead to anxiety, depression and lower intelligence.

Alcohol is a potent neurotoxin, and it's swilled with abandon as a rite of
passage. Student that embrace this culture leave college with more knowledge,
but diminished mental faculties and perhaps the start of a problem with
alcohol.

The financial security of a college degree is not what it used to be. I
believe that the tipping point has been reached where those that pressure
young people to go to college are now giving poor financial advice unless they
are entering certain majors.

One of my oldest friends went to NYU for four years. She racked up a lot of
student debt, spent six post college years working low end jobs and eventually
had to move out of nyc because she couldn't even afford to share a one bedroom
apartment in a bad part of town.

NYU tuition is at least $20,000 x 4 = $80,000, unless it is subsidized by
others.

This kid could probably go out today and get a job making $80,000 a year. The
math could go a lot of ways but after four years you could either be looking
at many tens of thousands of debt or a savings account with six figures in it
and a lot of on the job experience, and a lot lower stress.

No matter how you slice it college is over priced, even if other people pay
for you. The internet has driven the cost of information down to almost zero,
and there is no reason to spend tens of thousands of dollars a year to learn.

Fear not, college is being disrupted. College administrators got fat on their
student loan bubble, and scrappy start ups backed by Bill Gates and others are
coming to knock them off their perch.

Of one thing I am sure. The cost of college is unsustainable and getting the
public to subsidize it further will be tough with out large budget deficits
and debt.

To paraphrase Elon Musk, a college professor is like a Vaudeville actor, and
the coming online education will be like a Hollywood movie. Why be taught by
average minds when the greatest minds can record their lessons once and scale
to infinity?

I had fun in college, yes, and I learned some things in class. I would have
had much more fun, gotten my life started earlier and made a lot more money if
I lived on my own in a place like NYC from 18-22. I really wish I could get
that $80 grand on tuition back, I would so much rather have bought a house
than gone to college classes.

\-- Just one man's opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

~~~
olso4052
And that's cool. Your story is a good one and you bring up a lot of good
points. The area where I firmly disagree is how absolute you are.

Are you being overly narcissistic? Probably, but that's fine - it's an opinion
and he should hear it. But saying so concretely that it's always bad and will
always do X and ruin X is really a poor way to convey information, especially
to a younger fellow looking for answers.

However, the main thing it sounds like we disagree on is the future of
education. You are correct that there are lots of problems with the college
system, but all I can see is it growing. College just brings you to the table,
like a high school degree did 40 years ago. Now it's grad school that sets you
apart, education wise. I can only see that continuing to evolve into the
future. Hopefully what is taught becomes more practical, but higher-learning
is not leaving.

You're main point about getting knowledge elsewhere is true. However. 1) it's
very difficult to convey to the outside world that you have that info without
a degree, and 2) very few people are motivated enough to actually do that.
Bill Gates is a rare example, we can all agree on that. I'm sure this kid will
be able to read a dozen econ and marketing books and come out ahead, and so
your advice could make sense to him. However, very few people are going to
have the initiative, and so college will continue to thrive.

If you are selling all your college stock, I'm buying it, and feeling pretty
good.

------
TheAntipodean
Another point you need to consider is if you ever want to live or work
overseas. Most countries require an undergraduate university degree for you to
get a work visa.

This might not be the case in the future but it is a reality in the present.

Of course if you are successful in your company and have large sums of money
at your disposal investment of $1 million or so in your destination country
should get you a work visa, degree or no degree.

------
GFischer
My thoughts, in somewhat rambling order:

1) Parents don't know everything, however they love you and are looking after
your welfare. They think your best bet is college. I have taken choices other
than what my parents thought best, and worked out. Maybe you will too.

2) As others said, your startup has a likelihood to fail, or at least you'll
encounter some major hurdles on the way. You have to keep that in mind. You
might be extremely excited, but do you have user validation?

3) College has a lot of benefits outside just the boring education part, and
not all of your courses are macroeconomics! (which I did take, and found
interesting, but YMMV). Many courses help with basics you might need in the
future. Doing things in practise is a great way to learn, only there are some
theoretical things you won't come across unless you do some kind of structured
course (can be college, Coursera or whatever). In my case, I tend to
procrastinate, so college imposed some rules and forced me to study, which I
otherwise wouldn't have done on my own. It also opens your mind.

4) You'll meet like-minded people and broaden your horizons. Especially if you
get into a college you want.

That said, I don't know about how it works in the U.S., but you could do a
"year off", see where your startup leads, and, if it doesn't, get into college
a year later. It won't be the end of the world.

Something I believe you must do is try to "fail fast". Show your startup to
the world. Heck, show it here - unless you believe it's a one trick pony we
can easily copy, or some other competitive advantage - in that case show it to
people you trust, but show your stuff to SOMEONE that will give you feedback.
Especially people in your target, and people that don't know you / won't sugar
coat it.

I'm sure you know about Steve Blank's philosophy, Lean Startups, Pre-totyping,
etc. It sounds like it fits to what you're doing.

Edit: this is not legal advice :) , I'm 32, never did a startup (yet), work
for a boring BigCo, did college and just finished a master's (loved the
masters), still have friends from college.

------
moocow01
Well a bit tricky to answer generically... everyone is different, lots of
conditionals and unknowns to give a truly good answer.

The good news is that it sounds like your parents are not stupid and neither
are you. That being said while you may have lots of good energy and exuberance
towards your startup, it will (extremely likely) fail. To be a realist first
attempts at startups are usually the first step in a long learning curve
(although there are very rare exceptions). So instead of thinking about this
specific company you should rather think of it as embarking on the path of
being an entrepreneur - most people who take this path fail a lot, have a
handful of wins, embrace volatility, and never grace the pages to Techcrunch.
In short it is the high risk/reward path - almost like playing basketball with
hopes of making the NBA (although typically with better outcomes for those who
never make the big leagues).

The college path, assuming you are smart about it, dont take out crippling
debt, and major in something half way useful, has benefits as well. Its
typically an interesting experience intellectually, socially, and culturally.
Despite what you may hear education is still very strongly correlated to
earnings so in that regard it can typically open up opportunities to good
paying jobs. It is also can allow for future educational opportunities (MBA,
MS, etc) as well as more seamless industry changes if the bottom falls out of
tech. In that regard it is the lower risk option that can give a jump start to
ones career if done correctly.

The good thing is that neither option precludes the other. Start a startup,
then go to college... Go to college, start a startup while your there... etc.
Either option sounds interesting - my personal vote would be college in that
Im more risk averse and it has been well studied that education correlates
with entrepreneurial success.

------
codegeek
"they agreed that if our team is accepted to Y-Combinator, they will let me
drop out of college and let me pursue my dream"

Sounds like a good deal to me. I would only like to add that you should at
least "consider" the other side of the equation and be prepared in case. What
if you don't get accepted to YC ? What will be your back-up plan then ? You
seem like a smart person who knows his priorities which is always a good
thing. Just make sure you are not putting all your eggs in one basket.

------
Irishsteve
College is what you make of it. I found it to be a great experience and would
recommend it to anyone. There are many personal and educational benefits in
going.

If however your company is a serious affair I'd go for that. You can always go
back to college in the future. And by serious affair I mean you can easily
move out of your home in the next 9 months and support yourself.

------
DigitalSea
College or where I am from university is definitely not for everyone. Mostly
everyone I work with went to university and presumably have HECS debts
(student loans) they need to pay off now they're working. I, on the other hand
finished high school and taught myself a few programming languages, learned
how to talk myself up and went and got a job.

If I had kids and they wanted to drop out and teach themselves something, I
would be all for it. Although we are moving to a different place, companies
seem to have a growing fascination with degrees thinking they're relevant or
important when the reality is you probably use 5% of the degree you just got
$75,000 into debt for, if you're lucky.

Dropping out isn't for everyone. Some people only learn when they're being
taught and people like you and I teach ourselves and can get by on street
smarts.

------
logn
Sounds like your parents are supporting you, so let's put this in TechCrunch
terms. They're your majority equity holders, and they're calling the shots.
The easiest way to get 100% equity in your life is to finish college and be
able to support yourself. It's truly liberating to be financially independent,
and you'll never have these arguments again (and if you do it's purely to
humor them).

To me it sounds like you can do college but you care about other things more.
Maybe you should compromise and try to get a freelancing career off the
ground. In that sense, you're an independent business owner, you have freedom,
you can support yourself, and you can easily work part time and do side
projects. But getting going as a freelancer is a lot of work. If you must, ask
your parents' support for this for a few years until you're self-supporting.

------
dpolaske
The knowledge you acquire strictly from your course work can be duplicated
else where at a much cheaper price. If you don't need someone looking over
your shoulder you should have no trouble picking up this knowledge on your
own, and for that matter more relevant knowledge.

However, the social knowledge you pick up and the relationships you develop at
college (especially if you spend all 4 years at the same university) are what
I most value from my college experience. There are other avenues to develop
these social skills and build a network, but college offers a great
opportunity to do so.

------
flipcoder
College does not have a monopoly on knowledge. If college helps you learn
skills and develop good working habits, then do it. If your instinct tells you
your time is better spent working on projects and learning things that way,
then do that instead or both in combination. Just don't make the mistake and
assume any specific project will succeed, ever. Instead spend your time
investing in yourself, developing skills and building a portfolio that will
impress people more than a degree will.

------
boksiora
College is waste of time - real work gives the true value.

If you ask me - quit and follow your dreams (i did so). Even if you make
mistakes you will learn faster from them than the college.

College is for people that don't know what to do and are looking for
orientation. Also if you don't have a degree, some people say it will be
harder to get a job, which is one more reason to get your company of the
ground.

------
ronakgp94
Thanks to all who replied! Great advice that will definitely be taken into
consideration.

