
Show HN: Our Hackable E-Paper Watch for iPhone and Android - erohead
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/597507018/pebble-e-paper-watch-for-iphone-and-android
======
slug
Texas Instruments was selling the eZ430-Chronos for $25 the other day, it sold
out. <http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/EZ430-Chronos> ,
<http://tideals.com/>

It doesn't have bluetooth so this watch has an upper hand, but the chronos has
a data transceiver for firmware upgrade, communication with health monitors
and interfacing to the PC through an included RF dongle, along with xyz
accelerometers , pressure for altimeter and temperature sensor. It's
completely programmable with a provided IDE or msp430-gcc if you feel so
inclined.

One of the models has 433MHz frequency which can, for instance, allow you to
interface with many remote controlled devices (garage door).

On the link above and on youtube you can find a ton of videos with
demonstrations.

I managed to scoop one for me and posted the daily deal on HN a few days ago,
but it didn't gather much interest :)

~~~
mcpherrinm
The display on this watch is much higher quality, in my opinion, than the
eZ430.

I've looked at the TI, and it isn't really what i want. The previous version
of this watch, the inPulse, was pretty good, but battery life was a concern
for me.

This, however, is a much more attractive device, solely because of the very
sexy display. The costs aren't in the same ballpark, but neither is the
functionality.

I want it, in a way that I'd never want to actually use a Chronos.

I've met some of the inPulse guys in Waterloo, and interviewed for an
internship in the past, that I didn't do. I have faith in their ability to
execute a pretty great product.

------
erohead
We've made a lot of improvements over our first version. Added iPhone support
(finally) and a framework that allows multiple apps and watchfaces to run
simultaneously.

~~~
brk
Does it work natively with iOS, or does it require hacks like jailbreaking?

I bought one of the other programmable watches (forget the company name, I
think it's a YC company?) that initially claimed iOS support, but the caveat
was you had to jailbreak your phone and install some random stuff. Wasn't
really feasible for my application.

~~~
erohead
Pebble works natively with iOS 5. We are that YC company!

~~~
brk
Thanks, but I was thinking of InPulse.

I bought like literally the first one (still have it somewhere if anybody
wants it).

~~~
kefs
Did you watch the video? This is inPulse (see 0:23)

Also, for skimmers, it's under PROJECT BY:

> Eric and his team have been designing smartwatches for 3 years. Their first
> product was the inPulse smartwatch for Blackberry (www.getinpulse.com).
> inPulse has been covered by Engadget, The Verge, Gizmodo, NYTimes and more.

~~~
brk
No, I didn't watch the video until your comment.

I prefer to skim a page to get the relevant info, most video demos go way too
slow for my preference and waste a lot of time on bits I'm not directly
interested in.

If this is from the inPulse group I would have honestly expected that to be
more prevalent on the page instead of a casual mention in the video.

This was presented, IMO, as if the "Pebble" was an all new thing... No mention
of inPulse, Kickstarter campaign usually implies "new stuff", etc.

~~~
ryanhuff
Maybe they added it after you skimmed the kickstarter page, but they mention
InPulse in text.

"Eric and his team have been designing smartwatches for 3 years. Their first
product was the inPulse smartwatch for Blackberry (www.getinpulse.com).
inPulse has been covered by Engadget, The Verge, Gizmodo, NYTimes and more."

------
limmeau
Won't the epaper pixels wear out after a finite number of transitions? After
all, a year has millions of seconds to display...

~~~
carterschonwald
No, you're thinking about ssd drives. The issue with e-ink is that pixel
refreshes use power, so eink devices are optimized to try to minimize the
number of refreshes used. For example some of the newer kindles try to do a
screen full refresh every 6 pages so that the battery life is longer.

There is no wear for eink, same as for lcds

~~~
limmeau
If the epaper display involves white and black pigments travelling physically
through an oil droplet, then I doubt that the lifetime of a pixel is infinite.

Can't find lifetime specs on eink.com, though, only a claim that 90% of the
displays will live 10y at typical usage, whatever that means (one page-flip
per minute?).

------
eof
I don't have an iphone or android and don't really plan on it. Obviously I can
talk to it via bluetooth with my laptop or whatever, but does this thing need
to be in constant proximity to a device; ie is it basically just a dumb
terminal?

~~~
icebraining
According to their blog, it runs C programs (written with an SDK they'll
release) on a built-in ARM Cortex-M3, so it seems to be more than a dumb
terminal: <http://www.getpebble.com/blog/2012/04/10/pebble-sdk/>

------
rubergly
What is the process like for using it on iPhone? Do you need to always be
running a companion app in the foreground? Have you considered adding support
for Google Voice, if you can't access native text messages?

~~~
lukeholder
I want to know this also.

~~~
erohead
Our companion app runs in the background on iPhone (thanks to a new exemption
for Bluetooth accessories in iOS 5). We will try to get Google Voice SMS
messages working on iOS.

~~~
guan
I was under the impression that iOS apps can only talk directly to Bluetooth
Low Energy devices, not Bluetooth 2.1. Your Kickstarter page only mentions
Bluetooth 2.1 support. What am I missing?

~~~
mietek
I would really like to know the answer to this, as well.

~~~
davidcann
Scroll down to UIBackgroundModes:

[http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/genera...](http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/general/Reference/InfoPlistKeyReference/Articles/iPhoneOSKeys.html)

~~~
guan
Are you referring to bluetooth-central? That’s for the CoreBluetooth
framework, which in turn is only for Bluetooth Low Energy:

[http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#DOCUMENTATION/Miscel...](http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#DOCUMENTATION/Miscellaneous/Conceptual/iPhoneOSTechOverview/CoreOSLayer/CoreOSLayer.html)

~~~
davidcann
No, I'm referring to "external-accessory". This works with both dock connector
and Bluetooth iAP accessories. You're right that the other one is only for BT
LE (4.0). It's understandable that many people are confused about the
CoreBluetooth vs MFi Bluetooth.

------
tylermenezes
Does it work properly with Android yet? I bought the inPulse, but it didn't
actually work with my Android. The website said it would only work with
Cyanogen Mod, which is stupid to begin with, but even running Cyanogen Mod it
never actually recognized the watch.

Unfortunately it was a gift out of the return period, so I couldn't get a
refund.

------
hartror
I love the technology but aesthetically the unit itself looks pretty horrible
to my eyes. Watches are one of the few accessories men can wear and it always
saddens me that these types of wearable electronics are always so ugly.

~~~
schiffern
I don't think it's so bad. Of course I'm an "Apple snob," so geometric
minimalism appeals to me.

What watch do you find attractive?

~~~
swah
Ipod nano with rubber band looks better than this product, unfortunately. The
bezel is too wide, and it shold also be squareish (like the Ipod).

------
jaxn
I think this is a really exciting space and have been wanting a connected
watch for some time.

Here are some other options:

MotoACTV: <https://motoactv.com>

IM Watch: <http://www.imwatch.it/>

Meta Watch: <http://www.metawatch.org>

WIMM One: <http://www.wimm.com/>

Are there others? (iPod Nano watches not included since they don't connect to
anything)

~~~
archivator
SonyEricsson LiveView: [http://www.sonymobile.com/global-
en/products/accessories/liv...](http://www.sonymobile.com/global-
en/products/accessories/liveview/)

The watch is just a screen + radio, apps are entirely contained on the phone.

------
steve19
What is e—paper and how does it compare to e-ink? How does it perform in
direct sunlight?

~~~
icebraining
AFAIK e-paper is essentially a term that encompasses of paper-like displays,
including e-ink. This probably uses the latter.

------
burningion
Awesome product! Great to see another startup using Kickstarter to get going.

I started mine two days ago, I'm trying to raise the money to pay Twilio fees
for giving my intelligent journal to 10,000 people in developing countries.
Can't wait to see the success you guys have, Kickstarter is a great platform!

That being said, I think a Kickstarter is much more appropriate for physical
products than it is software products. People like being able to get physical
things, and being a part of the process.

------
Yarnage
This looks really cool but I'm so very confused about it being a kickstarter.
Is this basically operating as a store front or are you still in the fund
raising stage?

~~~
Swifty
If you go down on the kick starter page, they say that they have a prototype,
and the funding is for: "- Production tooling \- Large component order \-
Global Bluetooth certification"

so it looks like the funding is to take it from a working prototype to the
finished product.

~~~
Yarnage
I guess I'm trying to figure out if they're shipping them immediately or not.
It almost sounded like they were. I'll skim over the page some more.

EDIT: Nevermind. I figured it out. Reading...

~~~
13rules
The Kickstarter page says estimated delivery September 2012

------
nextparadigms
Well, from the video it looks pretty good. But is e-paper the best display
technology to use here? Doesn't it get ghosting? What about PixelQi?

~~~
aiscott
It does not appear to be e-ink, and they do not claim to be e-ink... The
kickstarter mentions a backlight, which makes me think it is not e-ink.

I can't say for sure, but the display appears to be this one:
<http://www.sharpmemorylcd.com/1-26-inch-memory-lcd.html> or something like
it.

It's an always on display with ultra low power consumption for static
displays, so I think that is what they basis of the e-paper name. Seems a
little dubious to me, but the watch still is very neat.

~~~
bostonvaulter2
The transitions (such as sliding animations) seem too fast to be e-ink as
well.

------
Timothee
Isn't this filmed in Y Combinator's office? What's the connection with YC?

~~~
psychotik
Why'd you choose to raise money via Kickstarter instead of going the
traditional funding route? I have my theories, but I'd love to hear what
specific benefits you have using this model.

~~~
betterth
(I am not an expert, this is just what I think) The problem is: you need tens
of thousands of dollars for a single manufacturing run. You can either raise
capital by selling equity (traditional investment), or raise capital by
preselling your device using Kickstarter. (Obviously there are more options).

This is basically the best of both worlds approach. The getting your cake and
get to eat it too: you get the capital AND keep all of your equity, with a
healthy dose of knowing the demand of your product before beginning your first
run.

~~~
bigiain
This is a pretty important observation. In one sense, it's no surprise that YC
backed companies are at the front of the wave experimenting here - I suspect
the smart VC people are fully aware of the paradigm shift that Kickstarter is
making possible. I'd be astounded if pg doesn't already have strong ideas
about how he and YC can bring value (and hence earn a cut of the profits) to
smart startups who've got a non traditional-equity-sharing option to raise
funds.

There are clearly some people attracting angel or a-round sized capital via
Kickstarter without giving up _any_ equity or control. This, the ZPM espresso
machine guys, Wasteland2 - surely at least some VCs and angels are viewing
those as "lost opportunities"?

I wonder if we'll start seeing "zero cash, very small equity" deals from firms
like YC, for people using _other_ means of fund raising?

------
thechut
I already have an inPulse but this is so cool I just backed Pebble on
Kickstarter too. I really hope the battery life is as good as you are
claiming, because the 20ish hour bat life on my inPulse is currently the
biggest pain point. Great work guys, I'm glad to see you progressing so
quickly.

Any Kickstarter bonuses for the early inPulse adopters?

~~~
stjarnljuset
How do you like the inPulse watch?

~~~
thechut
I like it a lot. I thought I would wear it more when I was out and about but
due to the short battery life my primary use of the inPulse is at home.
Usually when my phone is plugged in and charging in the other room. My inPulse
allows me to see anything important on my phone without having my phone in my
pocket.

I think the reduced profile of the Pebble along with the increased battery
life will be an absolute game changer. I hope to wear my pebble all the time.

~~~
stjarnljuset
Sorry I didn't see this earlier, but thanks for the review! I also have the
same problem where I'd leave my phone on a desk at home and won't notice if I
get any messages when I'm in the other room, so this makes the Pebble more
tempting.

------
adahm
Wish this would have come out about 6 months ago. Spent about $350 on the
Motorola MotoActiv. It's a great GPS fitness device with bluetooth, and right
now is definitely more functional that this watch, but it's still fairly
clunky. The fact that it isn't open source means that you have to rely solely
on updates from Motorola themselves. The bike computer function is lacking and
the bluetooth linking isn't great, especially when you're already using a
heart monitor. Although obvious downside is having to carry your phone with
you when working out but that's already something my wife does anyway. It will
depends on how robust the apps become, but this could be a major win for these
guys.

------
rohansingh
Brilliant. I've been looking for something with the functionality to replace
my old SPOT watch, and it looks like this is finally the ticket.

Also looks like there's a "hacker" package available too which includes a
prototype and early SDK access.

------
karanbhangui
Congrats to Eric and team! This looks great! Epaper is a huge plus for outdoor
use.

~~~
hv
I don't think it's real e-paper, it looks to be a Sharp Memory LCD
(<http://www.sharpmemorylcd.com/1-26-inch-memory-lcd.html> \-- the specs are
identical). In fairness, Sharp are positioning those LCDs as a kind of e-paper
work-alike, and they do work very well. The Nike+ watch for example uses that
exact screen.

------
j45
Very cool! I've long since wanted to do this with an iPod nano and wristwatch
accessory..... Except no connectivity.

My wishes for a product like this:

1) built in apps should be as polished and optimized and biotin apps so its
truly ready to go for the majority.

2) app functionality I've long wanted:

\- I hope it comes standard with caller id app \- weather feed \- email
notification as id like

Basically a subset of my smartphone features on my wrist.

Customizability wise, id love to be able to have an interface to build a
dashboard.maybe someone will create a Web app that I can create my own data
feeds and publish into an app on my watch.

Good luck, look forward to seeing it when it comes out!

------
yurisagalov
looks awesome, and just in time for me to replace my broken analog watch.
Congrats!

~~~
rubergly
Note that it says they ship in September.

------
pg_bot
Looks like a cool little product, I would buy one if I wore watches. My only
suggestion would be to stop designing your dial as if you had a round face to
work with, your display is square so you should design accordingly. All of the
analog versions you show are made for a round dial and they end up looking
cramped and awkward.

------
ricardobeat
I was expecting to see BT4/LE in use. Any reason to stick to the more power-
hungry 2.1?

------
RoryH
Anybody tried one of these? the imWatch? <http://www.imwatch.it/ie-en/>

I'm curious to hear what they are like...

disclaimer: I too succumbed to the Pebble deal on Kickstarter... Moooaaar
gadgets!!

------
icodeforlove
I didn't have to think twice about backing this project. I can't wait to be
able to view some statistics (like daily page views) from a website on my
wrist. This will help satisfy my information addiction!

------
Ecio78
What about this one? [http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/12/sonys-149-smartwatch-
finall...](http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/12/sonys-149-smartwatch-finally-
lands-in-the-u-s/)

------
jeremyarussell
So I'm wondering, does it support running as a companion for a BT enabled
Laptop or desktop with BT? That would be great but I didn't see mention of
regular linux/windows/mac support.

------
mhd
The SDK sounds very promising, ripe for hacking. I guess you could do some
bluetooth triangulation (plus accelerometer fine-tuning) to "localize" it for
different rooms of your house.

------
DenisM
What are the dimensions? Can you add a picture on a female wrist?

~~~
trentfowler
>Can you add a picture on a female wrist?

01:36 in the video.

------
brittspace
I would gladly pay the Hacker Special price if we could get a prototype and
SDK this month or early May. Any chance of this happening instead of having to
wait until August?

------
kolev
Basis is $199 and comes (will come) and adds (will add) a lot of value. $99+
is a little too pricey, I think. Those are two are different products, of
course, but still.

------
spoiledtechie
I personally thought kickstarter wasn't funding commercial ventures? This is a
commercial venture, is it not?

Can someone please enlighten me?

~~~
drumdance
I don't think that's the case. A friend of mine raised money via Kickstarter
for his company. See [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ucffool/gaming-dice-
in-c...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ucffool/gaming-dice-in-chocolate-
and-sugar)

------
jazzychad
Looks awesome, Eric! Can't wait to hack on one. If only it ran on a dcpu-16,
you'd have a super marketing combo :)

------
rl41
This is the project that convinced me to enroll in Systems Design Engineering
at University of Waterloo!

------
ricksta
Do you need to be on MFI to access the bluetooth on iOS? If so what's the
process of getting on?

~~~
davidcann
You do if you want to transfer custom data. Some controllers get away with
using the keyboard Bluetooth profile. You apply to MFi here:
<https://developer.apple.com/programs/mfi/>

But pretty much everything else is under NDA, unfortunately.

------
steele
This caught my eye. I've been looking forward to mybasis and wish these things
would merge.

------
dcosson
Is there any kind of side-lighting or other way to see the display in the
dark?

------
iuqiddis
Out of curiosity, any reason for not using Bluetooth 4.0?

------
drivebyacct2
After seeing so many alternatives, I was really dying to see an e-paper
incarnation. This would be awesome and it would give me a reason to get back
into embedded C-types.

I would loooove to see a watch like this integrate NFC as well that could be
used in applications. Think PKI in NFC on your wrist. Want to get in your
office, dorm room, car? Just hold your watch up to the handle and it unlocks.

------
iRobot
Get in before the i-watch and the patent nightmares

------
cs702
Looks _really neat_ , but I won't buy it, because:

* It requires regular charging -- at least once a week, according to the kickstart page. Who wants more cables dangling from the desk or night table? Who wants to keep remembering to charge one more device?

* Apps for this watch are necessarily inferior to those already available for smartphones. (Indeed, the whole point of modern smartphones is that they 'appify' specialized devices like this watch.) Who wants to carry an extra device?

Instead of simplifying my life, this watch would make it more complex!

~~~
ckrailo
You won't buy it because it requires charging and because it displays things
from your smartphone?

I'm... not really sure what to say.

~~~
jrockway
When people are bored at work they re-engage their minds by posting the most
negative comment they can think of.

A lot of people that read HN are bored at work.

~~~
guylhem
Sorry but the OP stated valid points, which I fully agree with, yet did not
take time to post because they were not very constructive and would not add to
the discussion. I guess there are more than 2 of us.

The charging part is the #1 problem for me. I would buy a device which could
be extracted from the wristband (ala ipod mini) and would not require cables
(ie with a charging mat). I would even pay a premium for a device which would
not have me remove it from my wrist for charging (don't know how it can be
done, but it should!)

Having to care about battery life is just adding complexity for minor
advantages compared to a standard dumb watch, therefore I'm not buying it, but
please do not discard such arguments just because of some "negativity at work"
theory.

~~~
jrockway
I guess this doesn't faze me since I use a Garmin GPS watch for running, and
it obviously needs to be charged regularly.

Complex electronic devices need energy, most cheaply obtained from your wall.
Radios specifically use a lot of energy, making regular watch batteries a poor
value proposition.

I guess I've accepted that Kickstarter projects aren't going to change the
fundamental laws of physics or invent something like a battery-size nuclear
reactor for their project, so I don't get upset when an electronic gadget
needs to be powered. That's all.

~~~
guylhem
I also purchased a Garmin forerunner - now catching dust.

Without changing the law of physics, an eink device whose main function is to
display time should be designed to work between 6 to 12 months on a single
charge or battery (CR2025 and the likes) to get my money.

If it can't do that and have a fancy CPU and a fancy radio, remove the radio,
use an AVR, whatever it takes.

Alternatively, an inductive charging mat were you can lay your wrist while
typing or a device that can be removed from the wristband (like an ipod mini)
doesn't seem impossible with todays tech.

~~~
bigiain
Why would anyone get particularly excited about a 6-12 month per charge e-ink
watch with no "fancy CPU and fancy radio"?

That's just a watch. The e-ink adds no real value if you can't do interesting
things with it. If this were "just" an e-ink display mimicking a mechanical
watch, I'd personally rather an actual mechanical watch.

I'm hoping that much like how I don't for a second resent having to charge my
smartphone every night in return for all the "extra stuff" it does over my
perhaps once a week recharge requirements from my last non-smart phone, that
this thing will do "new stuff" that makes it worth charging every night, and
also happen to be a perfectly functional watch as well. (Much like my phone
isn't so much a "phone" these days, its a "pocket web browser / email client /
twitter client / gps mapper / casual game device" which also happens to make
phone calls.)

~~~
guylhem
Now that the smartphones are doing the smart things other devices will either
be absorbed (palmpilot, mp3 player...) or will be slowly killed.

IMHO, a smart watch can have a place, if only as a fashion accessory, as long
as it doesn't add too much burden to the daily routine.

Look at how many people are still wearing watches around you and ask them why
they do that when they have a smartphone - [and that's just without the
charging burden]. You may be surprised: around me it either to look good or to
still have time when the smartphone has been fully discharged.

For Saint-Exupery, perfection is not reached when every feature has been added
but when any unnecessary feature has been removed.

IMHO daily charging and advanced features should both be removed or made as
easy as possible for a true smartwatch success.

Then I would get very excited at a eink watch similar to the seiko SGDA003 but
selling at a fraction of the price - especially if it was made of a good
quality titanium alloy.

Added value is in the eyes of the purchaser : IIRC the Seiko sells for $1000
and doesn't do anything fancy : they just looks great (the display is
gorgeous) and are rumored to be tough to damage.

Apparently such basic features justify enough value for the pricetag. Removing
the radio and the power-hungry cpu, then aiming at a $200 pricetag with a
device looking as good as the seiko should be possible - and I'd buy one!

But it seems like the company went into another direction, aiming at geeks who
wants many additional toy functions (untested market) compared to the actual
buyers of eink watches (tested market) who want something lees expansive,
better looking and maybe also more open.

I'd have gone to the market were a dump watch selling at 1000k is flying of
the shelves.
[http://www.seiko.fr/la_collection/collection_plus_info.php?c...](http://www.seiko.fr/la_collection/collection_plus_info.php?c=master-
series&t=c&p=2&refMontre=SDGA003)

You charge your phone and your bluetooth handsfree. But would you also charge
your watch? And your glasses? And other gizmos?

I think many people will be quickly fed up and just stil to charging the
device that helps them the most (here: the smartphone) and replace the others
by dumber and power-efficient devices.

~~~
ricardobeat
> For Saint-Exupery, perfection is not reached when every feature has been
> added but when any unnecessary feature has been removed.

You mean Jonathan Ive. Sorry, Albert Einstein. Wait, was that Graham Bell? Or
Leonardo da Vinci? Maybe Mies Van Der Rohe? Damn.

