
Ask HN: How many hours/week are you expected to work in SV/NY/other tech hubs? - andy_adams
For someone outside Silicon Valley, the salaries being paid to rank-and-file software engineers seem very high - which is great!<p>However, on many job postings you&#x27;ll see words like &quot;grit&quot; or &quot;passion&quot; listed as requirements. These are codewords for &quot;we&#x27;ll work you hard&quot; and &quot;overtime expected&quot;, as far as I can tell.<p>Software Engineers in Silicon Valley or comparable large tech hubs:<p>* How many hours do you work per week?<p>* Do higher-salaried jobs require more hours?<p>Both individual examples and higher-level overviews of the market are appreciated.<p>Context:<p>I&#x27;m a software consultant working with software companies in tech hubs - but I work remotely. I occasionally check their job postings and am $urprised at the pay rates and wonder if I&#x27;m underpaid. But then I think: Are there long hours involved? Is 50+ hours&#x2F;week the minimum?
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jbuss
I work remotely for a company in Silicon Valley. I worked on site for 2+ years
before that.

I work 40 hours a week, no more, no less and I have good performance reviews.
I think the trend for programmers is to work 40 hours a week and have a
balanced life. There is tremendous pushback against working 50 or 50 hours a
week lately, and I'm thankful for that.

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zxcvbn4038
In NYC, in financial services anyway, you are expected to work around 60 hours
per week plus whatever more is needed. You are expected to house your wife in
Connecticut and have your parents live with you to help your wife care for any
children. The big draw for that is you can typically expect high end salary
and bonus around 50% of salary or more - however only if you are present on
the date distributed. It’s a very common practice to lay off in November or
December, so employers can get the most work out of you without paying bonus
or letting you cost through the holidays when things are slow and IT
departments are in change freeze.

Since leaving financial services I’ve worked in social media where things are
much more family friendly, hours are closer to 40, but salary is about a third
less and bonus is closer to 25%.

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ascendantlogic
What is this "bonus" thing you speak of?

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gcheong
Essentially it is a way for the company to allow some variability in your
income, in case of an especially good or, more typically, bad year, as well as
hinder turnover by withholding a large portion of your compensation until
after, typically, the last fiscal quarter of the year. It's discretionary of
course so the company isn't on the hook for it and called a "bonus" as if they
are paying you beyond what your work is worth. You generally will not have any
insight into how your bonus is calculated nor will you be given any idea how
to move that number in a positive direction. That was my experience with the
bonus pools in the financial industry anyway.

~~~
ascendantlogic
I was being facetious but thank you for the earnest answer.

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yodsanklai
What does it mean when people say they work 40 hours a week? does it mean they
are focused for 40 hours, or that they spend 40 hours at their workplace
(including chatting with colleagues, eating, browsing the web or moving across
the building...).

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dang
Typically the latter.

~~~
quickthrower2
I’d need some kind of drug to stay focused 40 hours a week. Although during
unfocused times I often come up with subconscious insights.

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slezakattack
I work for a mobile gaming company in SV (500+ employees) where the office
hours are 10 - 7. I come in just before 9 and I leave at 5. Nobody seems to
care and people respect my hours. I receive good performance reviews and I'd
like to think I'm seen as a "go-to" person in the company. Sometimes there's a
light crunch where I'll pull 50 hours and/or take my work home with me but
it's pretty rare. The problem is that it can be so hit-and-miss with these
companies. I've watched teams from my last company push 120 hour weeks to get
a product done while I still worked 40-45 hours (I wasn't involved with the
project thank god).

You could literally work for a company (big or small) where teams or
individuals work long hours. I personally don't think working longer hours
should be awarded (unless the company is pushing for something) as it makes
other people feel they need to work longer. I always felt it makes more sense
to work smarter than longer.

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WaxProlix
I'm in Seattle and the answer is 'It varies'. We have oncalls which can feel
like working ~70 hrs/wk, and slower weeks where I'm only really in the office
for 30 or so hours.

Usually I'm in office or checking in on stuff from home for about 45hrs/wk. A
lot of my office time is spent in conversation or explaining things to
juniors, getting coffee, dealing with inter-team communication issues, that
sort of thing. Some (like now) is spent browsing the web, which I think of as
keeping up with industry trends:)

If I wanted to 'take the next step' in my career, I'd likely have to lose some
of my flexibility and have a more butt-in-seat approach. I think most of the
management and principal engineers here at AWS are in the 50+ hour club.

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voidhorse
I work at a large company in NYC. Based wholly on personal observation, long
hours are not uncommon. I often see folks eating dinner at the office. I
suspect most people put in ~50 hours a week if not a little more than that.

The number tends to increase with the extent of one’s responsibilities (n.b.
extent, not gravity).

As far as expectations go, I don’t think these are normally elaborated in
terms of hours for salaried employees. You’re just expected to get your work
done, regardless of whether or not it takes you more than 40. The expectation
is probably that you put in ~40-50? This is purely speculation on my part,
mind you.

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andy_adams
I'm trying to get at the underlying expectations - "get your work done" can
mean a lot of things. At a prior job, it meant that you wrote a TODO list at
the start of the week, which was approved by the boss. If you finished in 10
hours, you were done!

But if it's left vaguely defined, "'til the work gets done" can mean weekend
hackathons in a we-work-hard culture, no?

~~~
voidhorse
It's definitely a vague phrase, sorry. Here's some more detail: my situation's
a bit different from other employees (I'm hourly, not salaried), so I can only
take guesses, but I think the performance measurement scale is longer-term
around here. Basically there's yearly goals/key performance indicators you
need to hit. One on one's are the preferred method of checking in to see that
work is being done, but the ones I attend are pretty informal—I just provide a
general summary of what I worked on that week and where the long term projects
are at. The level of formality can depend on your manager, I believe. I think
some managers are a bit more clerical and ask for written weekly lists of what
you accomplished and things like that. From what I can tell though, there's
mostly just an understanding around here that you should be invested in the
work and as such be sure to accomplish your goals, whatever that might entail.
So, yes, in that sense it is a structure/culture susceptible to things like
weekend hours and extra grind. It's not uncommon to see people committing work
on weekends or at 10pm on weekdays either--it's not _super_ frequent but it's
also not shocking when it does happen. Keep in mind though that NYC in general
is quite a bit different than other places when it comes to working. There's a
lot of "hustle" around here. I'd go so far as to say it's probably not
uncommon for workers in _any_ industry to work more hours if they work in NYC
(there's probably some study on this out there somewhere).

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stackdestroyer
The expectations vary mostly depending on a few things, IMO:

1\. Life stage of the company (startup vs. mature) 2\. Role (rank-and-file
engineer vs. leadership) 3\. Your management

Location has had less to do with the number of hours worked than the items
above.

Startups tend to demand more of their staff because it's an existential
problem they're trying to solve - become profitable/acquired/public before you
run out of money or someone squashes you. Expectations there will be >40 hours
pretty much across the board, and will favor single, probably white men.

Mature companies can also demand more of your time, but typically they are
easier places to find roles that will not demand much more than 40 hours a
week.

With those things said, you could be working for a SOB that simply demands
your presence to prove you're doing the most work possible, and in those cases
you should decide whether you value your paycheck or your health/sanity. I've
been there and choose health/sanity 100% of the time. Burn out just once and
you'll know what I'm talking about.

~~~
Grustaf
Single - sure, men - sure most programmers are men, but why would they favour
white people? Do they work harder? I’m pretty sure white people are
underrepresented in Silicon Valley, while Asians are heavily overrepresented.

~~~
stackdestroyer
Could be I'm wrong. I look at this across all locations (including where I am,
in the middle of the country) and the majority of people I worked with that
were putting in crazy hours were single white men. Once people settle down
they have a way of self selecting out of the jobs with insane hours.

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rm999
I moved to NYC from a tier 2 city and found the expectations tend to be about
the same (~40 hours). That said, a city like NYC can attract and retain type-A
people who work long hours, so I think on average NYCers work longer hours
than my previous city.

> Do higher-salaried jobs require more hours

No, but moving up the management ladder can require more responsibility and
hours.

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Mandatum
New Zealand and Melbourne, Australia: Only time I've regularly worked more
than 40 hours was when I didn't know any better for a large consultancy. Since
minor burn-out I've always maxed my hours to 40 per week unless I'm really
enjoying the work (ie I'd rather work than do personal things). This can be
dangerous if left unchecked, however I've got a pretty healthy relationship
with work.

The only people who seem to work much longer hours are my American
counterparts and the occasional person who I believe to have poor work-life
balance. None of these people seem to be anywhere ahead or achieve anything
more than their colleagues. They often hold the "first in, last out" of the
office trope, and shame others for working regular hours as lazy.

I've got enough grey hairs as it is, thanks.

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sorryforthethro
Ah, it's not so precise, especially at a startup. A lot of bias and
favoritism, and employee hired after you might curry favor with the CTO and
show up 4 hours a week and never get fired, while you get hounded for more (no
extra pay) overtime. Such is Silicon Valley.

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p45please
London: 40hr/week up to 70hr/week, rough contracts and tight deadlines.

Moved to LA 3 years ago, work 40hr/week even though on 5x salary compared to
UK. Never felt pressure to work more, but would when required (launches).

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tdeck
I work in SF. It really depends on the company and team, rather than the
region. Lately I have been working 35-40 hours per week at Google, but there
are times when I've worked more like 50 hours.

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apolymath
I work full-time with salary at an insurance company here in Las Vegas, NV, 9
am to 4 pm with 1 hour lunch. As a .NET software engineer, I lucked out :)

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CorvusCrypto
I would say Stockholm is a tech hub in Scandinavia. There I worked 45-50 hours
per week.

In comparison to LA where I recently moved back: I work 40 hours a week,
barring any emergency that may come up. Though LA isn't really a tech hub so
maybe it's not a fair comparison.

In both places expectations are unwritten, so to speak, as laws prevent abuse
of labor. However in either case you are pretty well compensated for overtime.

~~~
njepa
What made you move back to LA, and is there anything you miss about Stockholm?

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vr46
London: 37.5-40 hours a week.

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dajohnson89
There's no hard and fast rule. Working for banks in NYC, 50+ is very common.
Same for many startups who are in "growth mode". Wherever you go, hopefully
you're judged by your output, not how long you're seated in a chair.

~~~
jjoonathan
> hopefully you're judged by your output

Why do people say this like it's impossible (or even difficult) for your
employer to demand output that realistically would take 50 (or 60, or 70...)
hours a week? Unless you are literally God, they absolutely can, and if they
are abusive, they absolutely will. Whether you get judged in output or in ass-
hours has zero bearing whatsoever on their ability to be abusive!

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justforfunhere
Gurgaon, India. Working in a startup. We have to consistently push up to
80-100 hrs per week. Sorry state of affairs I can say.

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abgfm
RO, start-up-mode: 50-60 hrs; corporate (telco, fmcg, financial services): the
usual 40 hrs/week.

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ergothus
> However, on many job postings you'll see words like "grit" or "passion"
> listed as requirements. These are codewords for "we'll work you hard" and
> "overtime expected", as far as I can tell.

I was talking with some younger friends here in Seattle, and they expressed
similar concerns. This was a total shock to me, because I've been involved in
hiring at multiple firms and we use those terms not just in our postings but
in our internal discussions for evaluation, etc, and we DON'T mean what the
fears are.

In my experience, talking about "passion" is basically shorthand for "we won't
have to train you and we'll have minimal mentorship - you'll learn and improve
on your own". So..not really a _positive_ meaning, but a very different one
from the fear. We don't expect people to put in long hours - the normal 40ish
work-week, maybe with a crunch day or two each quarter, roughly speaking. But
we do expect/want that people are coming in with the interests to improve and
the existing skill to do so. Most places are severely shy of "senior" people
(In part, IMNSHO, because they keep trying to hire "senior" people rather than
committing to getting more "junior" devs) and as a result they don't have
people with the time to spare for proper mentorship.

While this expectation has been consistent across the places I've worked, that
doesn't mean it's a universal truth...but I've not seen anything that suggests
"passion" and "grit" mean "will work stupid long/hard" outside of the game
industry and startups. (Notably, most places rush to get to the point when
they can recruit as "post-startup", meaning they no longer ask for those kinds
of hours).

I'm in Seattle, and to address your questions:

* Roughly 40 hours/week, normally a bit less (8-4, with a work-provided lunch so I end up not working for only a short time). In the course of a year I expect to have maybe 5 days that I do crazy hours (12-15+ hours/day) and maybe 10 days that I do long (10ish hours). Probably work about 2 weekend days/year on average (excluding answering a text/message, or doing a small code review - anywhere from 5-15 of those on weekends/year, each measured in minutes, not hours)

* Higher paying jobs (I've done 90k - 180+k in Seattle) haven't required more hours, though being willing to put in hours when something real comes up is always taken as helpful and does a lot to help with promotions and bonuses. The trick has been finding places that defines something "real" in terms you agree with. Prod issues that really impacts a customer and comes up 1-2 times/year? Cool. Being "on-call" each month means you WILL get a call? Not cool.

* Certain positions DO expect more hours, particularly when a problem arises. Generally Ops people and those that have to resolve production-critical bugs. This should all be openly available info before and during interviews, though you may have to ask.

That said, I've also noticed a name cachet - My Amazonian friends, depending
on their teams, have put in some hours I would consider stupid. They do this
WITHOUT a pay bump relative to others in the area/field - getting the name on
your resume is considered worth the extra effort. Then again those on other
teams have done nothing outside of my norm.

To put this all in context - I moved here ~7 years ago, and have worked for 3
companies out here. I've more than doubled my salary in that time, but my
workload hasn't changed too much. One place shifted from a good work/life
balance to having "crunch-time" start to extend to being very frequent - I
left, and so did most everyone else. One of the big benefits of a high-demand
area is that you can be assured of being able to safely leave a company, so
work-you-crazy certainly happens and in places, but cannot be the norm.

~~~
andy_adams
Thank you for your detailed answer! I'd say if you're going to put "passion"
and "grit" in your job description, you should also specify 40 hour workweeks.
Maybe I'm jaded, but those are just codewords to me for "wants to work
overtime".

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ergothus
I'm certainly keeping that in mind...but why do you believe those are
codewords for that? Is that assumption, rumor, or based on personal
experience?

~~~
andy_adams
Some personal experience, some anecdotes, some assumption. Nearly every time
I've read a job posting using similar language, when I've been able to
actually talk to the developers there I find out that yep: it's long hours
expected.

There's specific words, like "self-motivated" or "willing to learn deeply" to
convey the ideas you're talking about, without meaning working extra hours.
But when a job posting uses the vaguer "passion", "grit", or similar hustle-y
words, it's just a red flag to me that they're being non-specific - they
probably have a reason.

