
On higher education, programmers and blue-collar jobs - atomlib
https://habr.com/en/post/439762/
======
core-questions
> On the other hand, blue-collars do non-creative jobs, they usually do not
> make decisions and do not solve problems; if they follow the instructions,
> they do their work very well.

This is a fairly elitist sort of attitude that belays the likely fact that the
author doesn't actually _know_ any builders. If they did, they'd know that
rarely do engineering plans line up 100% with reality, and plenty of decision-
making and creativity is needed on behalf of the skilled worker as they best
try to execute the plans of the engineers.

~~~
austincheney
Actually many of the younger developers I have worked with treat their jobs
like a blue collar technician rather than a creative engineer. It is clear
they achieved a CS degree they confused for a trade school. It is pretty clear
these developers want all the vanity of being called a developer at a major
brand without any responsibility to make independent decisions.

Proof: Have them produce results without the OOP patterns they learned in
school or without their favorite framework.

~~~
maxxxxx
I see that too. In the 90s a lot of developers were self taught and were self
motivated to solve problems. With recent hires I see a lot of people who
probably did CS for a good career but don’t really care about the craft. If
something doesn’t work exactly as it should they just give up.

~~~
SomethingOrNot
Remember back in <good old days> when people were authentic and real and not
opportunistic fakers?

Load up the resentful pioneer module, Billy.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
There is definitely a division between people who are attracted to the
profession because they have an intrinsic interest and those looking for
extrinsic rewards.

I bet asking what age someone started programming is as good an interview
question as any other.

~~~
SomethingOrNot
I would fail that interrogation. :-)

~~~
maxxxxx
I'd fail that too. I didn't have the money to get a computer. But I am
mechanical engineer and in my first job I quickly was the guy who wrote macros
for our CAD system instead of doing designs with it. I never liked using the
CAD system but I loved writing code for it. That would indicate a natural
attraction to writing code.

------
kevintb
> The universities do not know whom you see yourself as in the future, and
> even you often do not know that at the age of your enrolment. It is believed
> that it is better to teach you all the basics, than to miss something
> important.

Definitely agreed. Unpopular opinion: I'm a strong proponent of a CS
university education, as opposed to something like a bootcamp, for this very
reason. An understanding of how OSes work; basic discrete math, etc - those
are fundamentals that shouldn't be ignored just because an engineer doesn't
work on them on a daily basis. (Unless if the job description is for front-end
development only, in which I'm less qualified to say whether a CS education is
needed or not.)

And, most importantly: a university CS education gives you knowledge on what
you _don 't_ know about CS. Otherwise, ignorance of your own ignorance just
feeds upon itself.

~~~
staticassertion
Sorry, but I'll point out a bit of elitism in this post.

> (Unless if the job description is for front-end development only, in which
> I'm less qualified to say whether a CS education is needed or not.)

The browser is an extremely complex platform, at least rivaling an operating
system. If you're going to argue that advanced knowledge of a platform is
required for non-frontend work, you should be comfortable making the argument
for frontend.

Except people generally don't make that argument. Frontend devs (I am not one)
are looked down on. But it's a double standard.

I'm sure that wasn't your intention, but it's a _constant_ expression I see -
that web developers are a class separate from the rest of us. The truth is
that OS knowledge is not critical and the general sentiment that frontend devs
can do their job without understand the complexities of a browser only reveals
this.

More to your point, I taught myself about OS's and x86 outside of class
because I wanted to learn how to exploit memory safety issues. I never made a
career out of it, but I learned a lot, and it was a matter of buying a few
books and talking to people on IRC. I found tons of excellent talks by Herb
Sutter and Scott Meyer about CPU architecture and how code maps to it.

There's a _ton_ of resources out there for those who choose to self-teach.

~~~
andreareina
>> (Unless if the job description is for front-end development only, in which
I'm less qualified to say whether a CS education is needed or not.)

> The browser is an extremely complex platform, at least rivaling an operating
> system. If you're going to argue that advanced knowledge of a platform is
> required for non-frontend work, you should be comfortable making the
> argument for frontend.

I didn't read the quoted statement as a position against front-end devs
needing CS knowledge, but rather a _lack_ of position in the matter due to the
author's ignorance. FWIW as someone working in both the front- and back-end,
the front-end stuff can definitely have the same amount of complexity.

~~~
staticassertion
I also did not read it that way. I read it as an off-hand remark that
unwittingly _implied_ that frontend devs were 'others' with different
requirements.

------
staticassertion
I had a longer post. I've deleted it. What I'll say is that I did not find the
article convincing at all.

I'm quite biased, as I found it incredibly insulting throughout the article,
as I myself dropped out of college.

I believe that college is a viable path with many benefits. I believe self
taught is another viable path with many benefits.

I am a programmer, and I dislike an article saying that I am not because I
chose to exit my university early and join the work force.

~~~
vishvananda
I also found the tone pretty condescending, but I wasn't sure if that was a
result of being translated from another language. I agree that both paths are
viable.

~~~
staticassertion
I think it is definitely beyond language. The condescension of 'you don't have
to be humiliated to be a blue collar worker' is absurd in any language - the
assumption that workers are embarrassed to not be one of the Elite Engineers.

The statement that you are not to call yourself a programmer, you haven't
earned it, you're not a _real_ programmer.

The justification against being self taught amounts to - 'well you can't work
for NASA, and uh, something about learning to be a professional'? I found it
particularly ironic that they pointing out how many big projects started in
academia - and how many of the largest companies were started by dropouts?

The author acts as if they're exploring the idea, but it's not an exploration,
it's an argument that they clearly already had made their mind up on.

~~~
int_19h
It's even more condescending in Russian, if anything.

------
ralph84
Most programmers are closer to skilled tradesmen, which doesn't fit into the
author's dichotomy of mindless blue-collar workers and university-educated
engineers. And the trades' apprenticeship model would probably work better for
most programmers than the alternatives.

~~~
maxxxxx
“And the trades' apprenticeship model would probably work better for most
programmers than the alternatives.”

Make the bootcamps longer and more rigorous and you are there.

~~~
pratnala
So... college?

~~~
maxxxxx
It seems colleges don't focus on teaching practical skills. I am always
surprised that a lot of fresh CS graduates barely know how to write code.

------
motohagiography
Such a rare opportunity it is to use the word fatuous to describe someones
ideas.

The article states, "Programmers who have studied programming languages,
development tools, various technologies and patterns, but have not mastered
the mathematical foundations, look like artists, who have a perfect
understanding of the paints and brushes, learned a lot of tricks, but do not
know the colour theory, composition, perspective, human anatomy, and other
basics. They may have a lot of brilliant ideas, but they will not be able to
express them. And all they can do is to work as assistants or repaint other’s
pictures."

Backfitting theory to practice and then trying to persuade practitioners and
others that they are somehow subject to the abstractions and shibboleths of
these gatekeepers, and that we do not understand our own craft, is dishonest.
Nassim Taleb calls this "teaching birds how to fly."

University education is valuable when it refines and differentiates students.
Outside of maths and maybe divinity degrees, most of them have become
managerialist diploma mills. I don't think the article was elitist, since one
of the first rules of being an actual member of an elite that you don't go on
about it like that. Provocative, anyway.

------
adreamingsoul
I aspire to be a Scientist (currently a self-educated software engineer & UX
designer).

I love education, learning, and teaching myself.

I strive to be around like-minded individuals who think logically or visually.

I have yet to find an education system (in the USA) that provides a learning
style that works for me. Or, I feel forced to conform my way of thinking to a
style that I consider to be inferior.

At a young age I was diagnosed with auditory hearing dyslexia. But little was
understood about the relationship it had with Autism. My parents, teachers and
schools did not have the resources, understanding or time to assist in my
difficulties. So I resulted to teach myself most of the required subjects. I
excelled with hands-on activities, problem solving, and critical thinking but
struggled with testing and language based subjects. Something I'm proud of is
that in elementary school I was already programming, building computers, and
volunteering in the School District’s IT Department as a "junior system
administrator."

Now that I have a family and responsibilities. I do worry that at some point
in the future my opportunities could be restricted by not having a degree. My
preference is to have the right education over a degree. But, the more that
these conversations around higher education and having a degree comes up, the
more I doubt my logic.

I want to attend a university where I can thrive, learn, and be challenged.
But I have yet to find the right one. Until then, I continue to read books,
teach myself new subjects, learn from mentors, take the occasional credited
class, and seek as many learning opportunities that I can find.

I'm not sure why I'm sharing this, but this topic has been something that I've
been thinking a lot about lately. It does help me to share my thoughts with
people.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
> I do worry that at some point in the future my opportunities could be
> restricted by not having a degree.

The longer you've been actually _doing the work_ , the less people care about
your degree. Don't worry about the conversations around you. Worry about the
hiring - and in hiring, having a proven track record beats having a piece of
paper. (At least, for most employers. The employers where it doesn't are
thinking that the degree matters more than the real-world experience. You
don't want to work at those places, whether or not you have a degree.)

~~~
adreamingsoul
Thank you, for sharing that perspective. I agree with you, and the
people/companies that I want to work with do value who I am, my experience,
and my background.

So far, the only challenge that I've encountered in my current situation is
with having to obtain documentation for immigration that provides a history of
my work experience, responsibilities, and qualifications in a way that is
equivalent to a degree or vocational training.

------
joe_the_user
_The university gives you fundamental knowledge, which will not become
obsolete when you finish your education._

The university in it's modern form has a effective history of several hundred
years. That puts it far ahead of specialized engineering school but naturally
hardly eternal.

What's interesting about this generally appallingly snobby and shallow article
is the way the division between intellectual and manual labor has remained a
constant even as this society evolved quite a distance from the time when
universities mainly produced priests. The division between skills requiring a
university education and those not requiring one has in the US become fuzzier
and fuzzier. But division still remains a fundamental prestige point simply
because no other division has replaced it (things are complicated now to
create alternate division).

Moreover, it's also testament to how far programming has fallen away from
other engineering fields whose on prestige guarantees them a place in the
university.

~~~
munificent
_> The university in it's modern form has a effective history of several
hundred years._

I'm not sure what you mean by "modern form", but Oxford University is nearly a
thousand years old. It's older than the printing press and the founding of the
Aztec civilization.

~~~
jackcosgrove
I assumed he was talking about the Humboldtian university with undergraduate
teaching institutions and graduate research institutions. That model is from
the late 19th century.

------
sempron64
Unrelated to the article, I'm seeing a lot of material from habr.com making it
to the front page. Most of these articles are direct translation from posts
from the main Russian-language site, which I've found to be an excellent-
quality blog aggregator with really interesting long-form articles. Many
articles are posted directly to Habr by large Russian tech firms (Yandex,
Vkontakte) or firms with a lot of Russian-speaking developers (Badoo). There
are also translations of many popular blog posts that make it to the top of
Hacker News, and high quality discussion in general. I read Russian with
difficulty, but Google-translating or finding the original linked article in
the case of translations works very well. I don't know of a similar tech-
focused English-language platform (Medium focuses on all sorts of topics, and
is getting scummy, and Slashdot/Hacker News/Reddit are not platforms for long-
form content). I wish there were an English language equivalent. Maybe
habr.com will accomplish it, but with it's mostly-in-translation articles, I
don't know.

I am a little annoyed that habr.com now directs to the English site for me by
inferring my geo/browser language, but the Russian language content is
accessible at [https://habr.com/ru/](https://habr.com/ru/)

~~~
sempron64
They have an interesting article about how they localized to English:
[https://habr.com/en/company/tm/blog/435764/](https://habr.com/en/company/tm/blog/435764/)

------
jackcosgrove
I've heard programmers described as plumbers. I've heard orthopedic surgeons
described as body mechanics.

There is a certain type of person who considers any endeavour that is tactile,
applied, or practical to be "blue collar". When I encounter such people I
can't help but wish I were rather in the company of a plumber or a mechanic.

------
nathell
Tangential, but the Lec quote at the beginning made me smile. Thank you,
author, for the token of appreciation to a great aphorist.

------
SomethingOrNot
> There is the matter is that blue collar professions slowly become extinct
> because they are replaced by robots and automatic machines. Now whole
> factories are ruled by a few engineers and skilled technicians. This is good
> because no industrial work should be done by hands more than once. And that
> is especially true in programming, because in programming non-creative work
> can be automated very easily. The present world does not need more blue-
> collars, because machines do their work very well, it needs more scientists
> and engineers who will invent our future. Likewise, the world does not need
> more low-skilled programmers (even though they are not blue-collars in any
> sense) because they will be replaced very quickly by smart machines and
> programs. Instead, the world needs more high-skilled programmers, true
> engineers, who will change our life, making it better, safer and longer.

Engineers can be idealists, too.

------
dragonwriter
> Only one thing, please do not call yourself a programmer, because a
> programmer is an engineer.

No, programmers are not engineers, generally, even if it became trendy around
the late-90s dotcom boom to give every programming and programming-adjacent
job in private industry (government didn't really join this trend) an
“engineer” title.

~~~
nomel
Maybe the appropriate title is missing since the concept is so new.

I think an appropriate name might convey a mix of the concepts: problem
solving, design, creative, abstract, structure.

If you add "rigor" to this, you have a good general, multidisciplinary,
description of an "engineer". I think this slight, but important, difference
is why people want to use "engineer" for non rigorous software.

In reality, you probably have some gradient between "software designer" (the
ever fluid art and design of software) and "software engineer" (proven
critical systems).

~~~
FiddlyPack
> I think an appropriate name might convey a mix of the concepts: problem
> solving, design, creative, abstract, structure

Hmm, something like (now hear me out), I dunno, “developer?”

~~~
nomel
I suppose that would go flat in the middle, but I believe it's too broad to
cover the range. There are engineers, and there are people in software who I
wouldn't consider "developers".

------
skipthemeat
"They may have a lot of brilliant ideas, but they will not be able to express
them."

Part of me thinks this is true...but the amazing thing about programming is
how many high-quality tools encapsulate the hard bits so that you can do
pretty brilliant things.

Yeah, maybe you won't be a pioneer in computer vision or perception
engineering, but you'll certainly be able to build useful products with robust
libraries and frameworks.

------
anthony_doan
> The present world does not need more blue-collars, because machines do their
> work very well, it needs more scientists and engineers who will invent our
> future.

I don't know... plumbing, welder, underwater welding, glass blower for
scientific glasses, etc.. are in need iirc.

------
chdaniel
I've read this thing as well (wish I'd be able to link it) how this guy was
like "nono, we might have got it wrong" — it's clearly the high-thinking non-
creative (non-artful) jobs that are going to be lost first due to the advent
of AGI

------
rb808
Reminds me of when I did an accountancy course and the instructor was talking
about engineers being blue collar job as it was very practical and you could
work without being a member of an official professional society. Kinda true.

~~~
chillacy
True for most probably, the only engineers I've met who actually studied for
and passed the PE are civil, mechanical, and electrical engineers (the ones
who work for the government).

------
cat199
... blah blah petty self-serving bourgeois rambling blah blah

