
Rejecting a candidate for over-qualification results in age bias - KentBeck
https://www.facebook.com/notes/kent-beck/over-qualification-wut/1671791376187053/
======
ChuckMcM
The "traditional understanding" of getting an applicant to your job that is
over qualified is that they are just trying to get a paycheck while they look
for something better.

I put that in quotes because yes, I've seen it also result in an age bias and
as I went from one side of the equation to the other, I spent some time
evaluating what was and was not important to me as an employee.

About 15 years ago I came to the conclusion that "over qualified" was never a
legitimate disqualifying disposition of a candidate. Simply put, if you are
applying for a job that needs less skills than you bring and are willing to
take the salary that is offered, how far 'beyond' the requirements you go is
irrelevant. I asked a hiring manager at Google once if they would tell a sales
guy "No I don't want the Ferrari at the same price as this Mazda Miata, its
more sports car than I need to get around." Even if you never expect to
challenge the top end of the sports car you probably won't turn it down.
Similarly with employees, if you are up front with them about what the job
entails and they are ok with it, who are you to say they will be "bored" or
"twiddling their thumbs all day" ?

Answer is, you aren't. Hire them and get get a discount on skilz they are
offering you. Your company will be better for it.

~~~
rdtsc
> who are you to say they will be "bored" or "twiddling their thumbs all day"
> ?

But that's not the real reason. The reason is they are afraid because the
experienced person can see through bullshit better. They are harder to fool
and brainwash to work for free. With stuff like "There won't be a paycheck
next month, but don't worry we are turning corner, once we exit you'll all
drive Ferraris!", "We are changing the world, just need to finalize this
feature by next week, so let's all work a little harder (and by all I mean you
all)". Someone with experience will say something "Thanks but no thanks, I've
heard this before" a new college graduate will say "Yay! Let's do it, I'll
impress everyone with how little sleep I can get each night".

And I am not being too hyperbolic here. I've heard from owners before
confessing that hey love hiring college grads because they can drive them
hard, they are full of enthusiasm and are not "tainted" by other corporations.

Another friend from another startup, confessed that they like those take-home
interview problems. Stuff like "Implement a distributed database over the
weekend and show us the code on Monday during the interview". The reason is
because they can get the really desperate and dedicated people willing to
invest that much time into projects. As when crunch time comes, they'll need
those "skills".

~~~
shostack
It may be less nefarious than that. There may be legitimate concern that the
employee is just looking for a short term paycheck while they look for
something more senior. Most managers are probably not thrilled with the idea
of investing in someone who may not even stay a year.

Obviously it is more complicated than that. Just saying there could be
legitimate concerns.

~~~
analog31
Here's my thought about that. If they take your offer because they're having a
hard time finding a more senior job, it won't suddenly get easier for them to
find a more senior job after you hire them. So I think this risk may be
overblown.

~~~
carlmr
> it won't suddenly get easier for them to find a more senior job

My experience tells me otherwise. As soon as you have a job, everyone wants to
hire you. If you have no job, nobody wants to touch you. It's kind of like
dating, where scarcity makes you attractive.

------
Anechoic
When we talk about "disparate impact" in racism, _this_ is the type of think
we're referring to. Yeah, you clean-shaven policy _seems_ fair, but but
disproportionally affects a certain segment of the population.

Similarly "you over-qualified for this positions" seems fair, it may even seem
like you're doing the applicant a favor, but if it disproportionally affects a
particular community, perhaps it's time to reflect on it.

edit: spelling, thx icelander, and damn you autocorrect

~~~
golergka
I want to understand your reasoning better. If a policy is fair, but
disproportionally affects a certain segment of the population - is it bad?
Why?

The whole reasoning as to why exactly racism and ageism is bad, in my opinion,
doesn't have to be based on morals, IMO (since everybody has different
morals). It's sufficient to base it on self-interest: in an ideal simulation,
where there would be bazillions of employers competing over bazillions of
employees and vice versa, racist and ageist agents would lose, because they
wouldn't make optimal decisions. (Of course, ideal simulation isn't real
world, and that's why we have anti-monopoly and other laws that help to make
the system run as if there were a bazillion rational agents).

But if some rational decision making merely correlates to segments of the
population, and is not directly based on information such as race or age, I
fail to see what is bad about it and why it should be avoided.

~~~
pc86
It is fair _if it is relevant to the job_. If the legitimate requirements of a
job happen to negatively affect a sector of the population that's not
necessarily a problem (think firefighters being able to move a certain amount
of weight in a certain amount of time). If it's completely arbitrary -
everyone needs to be clean-shaven every day - and disproportionately affects a
certain protected class, you could have issues.

~~~
golergka
I'm completely with you right until the phrase "and disproportionately affects
a certain protected class". What's a protected class and how does it differ
from any other class?

~~~
pc86
Protected class is what you can't fire/refuse to hire someone for. Race,
religion, etc. You can refuse to hire people who don't wear a suit to an
interview. "People who don't wear suits to interviews" is certainly a class,
but not protected. You can't refuse to hire black people, because race is a
protected class.

~~~
golergka
But what if there is a significant correlation between protected and
unprotected class? Like, what if black people are much less likely to wear a
suit?

~~~
dmh2000
Protected class usually refers to groups protected against discrimination by
law.

------
calt
After my dad's manufacturing related engineering position moved overseas he
got told by an automaker that he was over-qualified for line work. However no
one was interested in his engineering skills even after he tried to pivot to
quality-control engineering.

The pay and work at the automaker would have been great for him. Instead he
ended up carrying mail until retirement.

I constantly think about him and remind myself to not get to comfortable in an
industry.

~~~
senatorobama
> I constantly think about him and remind myself to not get to comfortable in
> an industry.

What are the practical outcomes of this? Side projects?

~~~
twblalock
Save enough to retire early, or at least enough to be able to survive on a
lower salary later in life.

If you work in an industry in which jobs are likely to be outsourced, or where
ageism is a significant factor, you should not assume that you will be able to
work until the normal retirement age. It's just not realistic.

~~~
brooklyn_ashey
Unfortunately, most industries are rapidly becoming ageist if they aren't
already. And if you work in a job with lower general compensation (most of
them... except finance which has major discrimination problems too) It's
impossible to make enough money to retire at 40, which is exactly what most of
us are now being asked to do, at the prime of our expertise, due to
"overqualification"... ahem... ageism, I mean.

------
DoubleGlazing
I think the use of the term "over qualified" is often used to mask the real
reasons for rejection.

I was rejected for a job when I was aged 39 for supposedly being over
qualified. When I applied for the job in question I was upfront about my
experience, qualifications and desired salary which was market rate for my
experience. I didn't sell myself short. The product I would be working on was
unified message distribution system not too dissimilar to Twilio.

After a code test, a whiteboard exam and two rounds of interviews I was told
"Yeah, we really like you and you undoubtedly have the skills. But we were
really looking for someone a little less qualified". I pushed a bit to find
out what that meant and the HR person claimed it was my salary expectations,
but I had my doubts.

During both interviews I was asked if I had children. I said I had two. I was
then asked their ages and where they went to school. This led on to questions
about how they got to school and what happens if one or both of them are sick
etc. The questioning style was casual, but they were definitely probing me. In
Ireland this line of questioning is illegal, but it happens a lot. At the time
I answered the questions with a feeling of reluctance. I do believe that
having young children lost me the job. I was asked what would happen if my
children were sick off school, I answered that either me or my wife would have
to stay home. I was asked why my wife wouldn't take on that responsibility
exclusively. I responded because we share our responsibilities to our family.
I could see the interviewers brow furrow when I said that.

I have a strong suspicion that the reason why age affects IT recruitment so
much is not because of "over qualification". It's because the older you are
the more likely you are to have family that you want to spend time with. Or if
you don't have children you might have other interests that take priority over
work. I've had managers who have straight up admitted that the older you are
the less likely you are to put up with overtime and more likely to challenge
over bearing bosses.

Put simply younger people have fewer adult life distractions, will work longer
hours and put up with more crap.

~~~
jiiam
I always wondered, could one simply lie? I mean, I never had to face the
situation in an interview, but I would like to be prepared for it.

If my interviewer asks for my marital status/family size, could I simply
refuse to answer? Or, if not, could I just lie about having children or not?
Can a contract be invalidated by the fact that I lied about something during
my interview?

I would guess that providing an excuse for firing someone would be harder than
providing it for not hiring him, and you cannot simply fire someone for
"having children and not having declared it".

I wish there was a way to prevent interviewers from asking these kind of
questions, but until then this seems to me like a viable alternative.

~~~
dclowd9901
"If my interviewer asks for my marital status/family size, could I simply
refuse to answer?"

I would _think_ if you so chose, you could sue the shit out of them for
discriminatory practices. This is so illegal it makes my head hurt.

~~~
DoubleGlazing
I've been tempted to bring claims. The problem is it's your word against
theirs

Plus, once your name gets out as a potential trouble maker then it's even
harder to get a job.

~~~
brooklyn_ashey
You are so right about all of this! Here are my notes from "the resistance"
(distant, muted chuckle) This year, after my fourth experience with ageism in
the hiring phase as a candidate, I was disgusted, frustrated, and fed-up. When
I contacted an attorney about the outrageous level of age discrimination I
recently experienced at an interview, he was skeptical, at first, saying that
these cases are very difficult to prove. He asked me for the key facts-- When
I told him exactly what happened and some other facts about the job
description as it was posted online versus what was told to me about why I was
not hired versus who they ended up hiring (a 20-something year old with none
of the posted experience supposedly "required" at the job). He asked me if I
had written proof of this. I said that sadly, I did. I also had a recording.
(Yes, they are that irresponsible about their hiring practices)He said that it
was one of the most clear-cut cases of age discrimination that he had heard of
in hiring, particularly because I offered every single experience and skill
requirement listed in the job posting while the job winner offered none of
these.(no, the online posting/position was never changed) He wanted to take it
on contingency without hesitation. He did warn me that going after
discrimination in any form is best as a last resort (i.e. If I know I'm too
old for anyone to ever hire me in tech), because I will be marked as someone
who stands up for themselves and no company wants to hire that person. He
pointed out that since they were a well-known company in tech I'd face
significant blowback and shunning, even if I won, which he felt I would. He
also pointed out that the compensation I can get from it is not what it should
be. I told him that changing this in our industry is important to me. If more
people filed EEOC complaints it might help, but I'm not sure. (FYI, I just
turned 47)

------
egwor
I've been interviewing quite a few people for roles and more recently there
have been far more who have PhD's in Machine Learning. I point out that role
won't use these skills/expert knowledge, and ask what they think. No one ever
says that the role is not for them but you know that if there were a machine
learning role open they'd jump at it, thereby costing the company money in
rehiring. It is a tough decision.

~~~
wwweston
The news that there are apparently people with PhDs in Machine Learning who
are finding the job market difficult enough they're applying for unrelated
technical positions seems like it runs counter to the conventional narrative
about high demand and trouble finding truly qualified scientists...

~~~
FLUX-YOU
>conventional narrative

That shit's been broke for employees since Agile was successfully marketed and
they figured out how to reproduce it (blogs, news, and conventions lead to
consultants). Same for Big Data, ML, AI, coding bootcamps, and DevOps.

------
salqadri
This doesn't happen just because of age. While I was living in Canada, I met
plenty of highly-qualified immigrants desperately looking for jobs, and would
routinely get this response even though they weren't old or anything; its just
that they would literally be applying for low-skill jobs because the
appropriate jobs would not take them for lack of "Canadian Experience".

~~~
jpatokal
This is a thing in Australia as well, and it's quite baffling. As far as I can
tell, it's not even racism or genuine comms concerns etc, it's just that any
work experience outside Australia gets discounted as "not _real_ work".

~~~
icelancer
>>it's not even racism

>>work experience outside Australia gets discounted as "not real work".

I mean, that might not be the strict definition of racism, but it essentially
is.

~~~
derefr
This is still true even when the people getting discounted are of the same
race _and culture_ as the interviewer, though. Like, hospitals seemingly don't
want doctors that _grew up in the US_ but then studied medicine at foreign
universities—even when those universities are world-renowned for producing
great doctors.

Unless you're suggesting that such places think that the foreign culture
"contaminated" their own countrymen in the few years they were abroad—and made
them useless—a different explanation is needed for this effect.

~~~
dpark
If you discount the quality of a degree from a well-regarded university just
because it’s in a foreign country, it’s racist (or xenophobic or something
roughly equivalent). Not against the candidate but against (citizens of) the
nation hosting the university.

With that said, I think hospitals want American candidates with degrees from
American universities because the concern is that an American educated by a
university in another country was perhaps unable to gain acceptance to an
American school, in which case perhaps the foreign university isn’t actually
as selective.

~~~
abiox
> If you discount the quality of a degree from a well-regarded university just
> because it’s in a foreign country, it’s racist (or xenophobic or something
> roughly equivalent).

i don't see how it can be 'racist', because countries aren't races. it might
be in some sense 'xenophobic', as it seems more a case of people being more
comfortable with people similar to them.

~~~
dpark
Of course countries aren’t races. The citizens of those countries do have
races, though. If, for example, you’re only judgemental against Latin American
universities, that could be considered xenophobic but it could also be
considered racist. The two aren’t really that easy to separate when the
prejudice is against a group that is both foreign and a different race.

------
musgrove
I'm seeing this now. I'm 48 and have applied to over 100 jobs. I have an MBA
and have been well-qualified for every one of the jobs I've applied to, or
else I wouldn't have wasted my time. I've had about 5 legitimate responses. I
know it's not my resume, or much else. Age is just about the only answer, or
not being able to afford me because I'm "over-qualified" which makes me wonder
why they're advertising for the position, if they don't expect to hire a
qualified candidate.

~~~
ThrustVectoring
Response rates are just low in general for cold opportunities. Like, 5% sounds
great. Either use your network or send out many more applications even to
marginal opportunities.

~~~
toomanybeersies
Is it really that bad in the USA?

I've just started looking for a new job this week, and I've applied for maybe
3 jobs, and my phone has been ringing off the hook.

~~~
brooklyn_ashey
Yes. Where are you applying from?

~~~
toomanybeersies
Australia. It helps that ruby developers are rare as hens teeth here.

------
placebo
I don't think you can fight this with laws: We live in an age and society that
prefers young over old, smart over wise, quick profits over steady growth - I
could go on with the contrasts but you get the idea. This might change over
time but don't hold your breath.

If some of the young developers reading this realize that the same might
happen to them then my suggestion would be not to wait around hoping that new
employment laws will save you in a few decades (which will pass faster than
you think), but to start taking care of things now. This means, make sure that
by the time you get to the age when someone won't hire you, you won't need or
want to be hired. You can do this by either saving enough money by that age to
do whatever you want (which could be a new venture doing what you love,
whether it is developing software or not) or by slowly creating a business
(maybe starting as a side project) which will end up with you on the hiring
side (even if you only want to hire yourself).

------
WalterBright
When your date dumps you after the first date, the reason they give is never
the truth. It's the same when they reject you for the job. There's not much of
a percentage in stewing or arguing about it.

~~~
humanrebar
Agreed. I've heard candidates rejected as "overqualified" when they meant "not
qualified or otherwise not interesting, but they seem to think a lot of
themselves".

------
jokoon
Employers constantly tell me "Your resume looks great, you have a lot of
skills, so why is there a gap in those years? What were you doing? Don't you
have any experience in technology X or Y? You might get bored here". I never
get hired.

~~~
ringaroundthetx
You could just lie about the gap.

And to do it without lying you can remain perpetually employed at the random
consulting firm you coincidentally founded.

MANY OF YOUR EMPLOYED PEERS HAVE DONE THIS

~~~
KGIII
If I find out later, you will be immediately dismissed. No exceptions.

I was honest with the employee and I demand the same in return. If you will
lie to me about that, you will lie to me about other things or, worse, lie to
coworkers or clients.

Dishonesty means your value to me is nothing and there is no reason to
continue our relationship. Some forgiveness is fine for my personal
relationships, but my business is staked on trust and dishonesty violates
that.

Then again, I don't really care if there is a gap in your employment history.
What you did is none of my concern. I care if you can do the job and if you're
the most qualified I can reasonably find.

~~~
AceyMan
>>>If you will lie to me about that, you will lie to me about other things or,
worse, lie to coworkers or clients.

This is not clearly the case and it's disingenuous to argue otherwise.

Resume gaps are just the ugly zit of people's career arc. Nearly everyone has
had one, and they'd all rather not talk about it after the fact.

Trying to obscure it somehow by specific construction of the CV is more of a
form of blemish concealer. Nothing more.

(NB: Your apparent enthusiasm for canning people is frightening. I wish I knew
where you worked so I could never cross your path.)

~~~
KGIII
I've fired remarkably few people, but I do have high standards and hold myself
to even higher standards. Dishonesty isn't acceptable in business. I can
forgive in a personal relationship, but my reputation is attached to the
outcome of the employees work.

A willingness to be dishonest is not acceptable. You can tell me you were in
Colombia smoking crack, it's okay. Don't lie and say you were in Colombia
handing out aid to indigenous people, unless you were.

There are some lines that I don't allow people to cross. That is one of them.
My employee's actions reflect on me and my other employees. They can cause
harm to me or my other employees by making the business look bad.

I'd be more concerned with acceptance of dishonesty than I would with a
perception of my enthusiasm.

The reverse is also true. If someone client is dishonest with one of the
employees, our relationship is over. I will not have an employee's reputation
harmed by the acts of another.

I don't think honesty is too much to ask for.

As for your own views, you can take comfort in the fact that I've long since
sold and retired.

~~~
barrkel
I think you're making the classic mistake of attributing actions to character
rather than circumstance.

~~~
KGIII
Actions are character.

If you call in to work, don't tell me your dog died. Tell me you're going to
stay home and get royally drunk - if that's the truth. I'll still make it a
paid day off.

Your actions are your character. If they aren't, you have no character.

I'd invest a lot in an employee and do a great deal to protect an employee.
Demanding honesty is a pretty low barrier and everyone knew my policy. Don't
lie. It's not very difficult.

Lies in business has another name, fraud. Don't do that. Well, you can, you
just can't do that and represent me.

~~~
alexbecker
This sounds good but in my experience does not reflect real people very well.
Most people tell small lies all the time, and this has little correlation with
real bad behavior--I've met honest scoundrels and dishonest saints. If you
think people are being perfectly honest to you, well, you're probably wrong. A
policy like yours only fires inexperienced liars.

~~~
KGIII
That's fine on a personal level. Well, not fine but forgivable. In business,
that's not acceptable. My reputation is impacted (was, technically, as I'm
retired) by the acts of other people.

Lies, in business, is also known as fraud. That's not okay.

At the other end, I was very protective of my employees. If a client or vendor
lied, our business dealing were over. More than once have I insisted we get
someone else to work with and more than once have I terminated relationships
with suppliers.

Dishonesty is forgivable in your friendships, even though it's still not very
good. You can forgive someone you love. You can't as easily undo the damage
caused by something like a vendor lying to an employee and the employee
telling a client erroneous information based on that lie. I can't easily undo
the damage done when an employee lies to a client.

It's not just about face, it's about minimizing harm to the business and doing
what I can to keep everyone employed and making good money. My policy on
honesty was well known and clearly vocalized.

You can call in and say you're going to go get drunk and play golf. It's still
going to be a paid day off, so long as it isn't excessive. What you can't do
is call in and claim your kid is sick when your kid goes to the same school
mine goes to and hangs out with my kid. Just be honest.

Not to mention, I'm kind of baffled. Why would you want to work for someone
that you can't be honest with?

Again, it's also okay to say its none of my business, that counts as honesty.
Lies are willful and intended, by the way. Mistakes are absolutely forgivable,
as is not knowing.

Maybe this will help? I employed a bit under 250 people directly. We had three
offices on the eat coast and a satellite office in the Midwest. I never put
out a help wanted ad, it wouldn't have done any good. The kinds of people I
employed weren't looking for ads in help wanted sections. I often pulled
people directly out of academia but many hires came from referrals and I'd
make sure to provide any needed training.

That may explain the environment better. I'm not sure the policy works for
others, but it worked for me. I sold and retired a decade ago. Even if it
doesn't work for others, I'd not want to work for someone with whom I couldn't
be honest.

------
xchaotic
In the end if don't want to hire you, they won't. Now, rather than being
brutally honest, they invent ways around it.

~~~
geofft
I'm not sure that's true. If they don't want to hire you, they're less likely
to, but at some point it might not be worth the effort to come up with an
excuse. And, importantly for an organization, "they" might be a subset of
people. If I have a biased coworker (where "biased" can be anything, but let's
go with age for now) who doesn't want to hire someone, but can't communicate
their dislike in email without putting animus towards a protected class in
writing, and the rest of the team is mildly positive, the fact that they
couldn't be brutally honest is probably enough to go from a no-hire (via the
coworker's veto) to a hire.

~~~
dvtv75
It is, in my experience, absolutely correct.

About a decade back, I applied for a job in Dunedin. The manager of it met me,
read my resume and loved it - I had plenty of experience where the other
applicant he was interviewing didn't have any, he said, and queried what I
knew about this and that, so on. He couldn't have been more positive.

Then he asked if I had any medical problems, I told him I have a disability.

The red started at his collar and worked his way up to his face. He made a
point of going back to my resume, and loudly shouted at me for not having any
relevant experience, how I'd f __king wasted his time and he was going to bill
me for it, that he was going to lay a formal complaint with the employment
agency I had gone through. He lied through is teeth about their work for the
city council, that he "ran the computer systems for them, all the servers,"
and that he didn't have time to teach me how computers worked, that I only had
an academic qualification with no real world experience. (I knew a guy who was
loosely involved with ITS for the DCC at the time, and he told me the
interviewer is a liar, most of their IT support was in-house or specialist
software support.)

The interviewer also told me that I should get "real world experience running
a corporate network," and he told me I could do that by stealing old computers
and pirating Windows ("Well, there are ways to get Windows.")

A few years later, I ran into a friend of mine from university who, it turned
out, had got the job I missed out on. He was just out of university when they
hired him, and actually had no experience in any roles of any sort.

tl;dr: The interviewer lied to my face. It hindsight, it was obvious that he
did, but at the time I didn't get it. (Part of the disability, I'm very easily
lied to.) He made up every excuse under the sun to not hire me, or even
continue with the interview. It would have been much less obvious (to an
outsider) if he'd just concluded the interview normally, without any further
comments on the disability and I wouldn't have been any the wiser, but he was
too stupid and self-righteous for that.

(Further thought, when I found out about it, I mentioned it to a friend of
mine who immediately told me that the employer had every right to discriminate
against me on the basis of my disability, and nothing could convince him
otherwise - not even the government, who stated that had I found out sooner
and been able to prove it, I would have likely received a large cash
settlement.)

~~~
geofft
I think I phrased that wrongly - for individual people, having laws may or may
not actually help you. (If I'm understanding you right, the law _could_ have
helped you, had you been advised correctly about it, but you weren't.) But for
_society as a whole_ , having the law means some people are going to be helped
by it. Many aren't. But a social change always starts small.

------
creatrixcordis
Majority of managers do not want people that see through their bs. After all
they need to manage. Someone who sees through their bs is not as pliable as an
inexperienced hire. They want the naivety because it is exploitable just like
ignorance. Remember most managers are trying to move up and if you pose a
risk, they won’t have that. This is also part of the reason why there exist so
many collaboration tools. If we placed collaboration above competition just
maybe the company would be a better place to work. Instead of this competitive
minefield where everyone is just looking for the next opportunity to step up
at the expense of others and at the expense of collaboration.

~~~
le-mark
These types are the easiest to game though. Just tell them what they want to
hear, and deliver something occasionally. Then you're considered to be a star.
Rinse, repeat.

------
pinewurst
It's ironic seeing this hosted at Facebook, the land of "young people are just
smarter".*

*The infamous quote from Zuckerberg

~~~
CGamesPlay
Well, Zuckerberg employs Beck, so he must have seen a sliver of the light at
some point!

~~~
cyberferret
I misread that as "silver light" and thought it was quite a clever pun on
silver haired programmers... :)

------
shove
I received some advice to omit the first 5-ish years positions from my resume
and “reword” the line referring to my 20 years of industry experience. I'm
older than my boss and it's definitely a bit scary. YMMV

~~~
kvonhorn
I recently created a custom resume for a recruiter who wanted me to remove my
pre-2006 experience from my resume before he would submit me for a contract.
Boasting wide and deep experience in this industry is a liability for an
employee, not an asset.

~~~
amigoingtodie
This is funny to me because it means 10 years of experience is the maximum any
candidate should have.

------
harry8
This person has wonderful skills and experience. They must have an extensive
network of people they've worked with and for. Yet here they are in front of
me not making any use of that network. Why?

Meet that head on because one possibility that goes through the mind of those
making the hiring decision is "Is it because this person is horrible?"

"I'm here and not using my own network to get hired because (they've all
retired rich the lucky bastards|the network went a bit cold while I did 15
years in xyz co.|I'm not comfortable using a network because I've always been
able to get hired on my talent, skills and work ethic and that's really
important to me|whatever the reason is).

Also when mentioning previous stuff you've done. "Did that with Jill and
Amesh, great people, would work with them again in a heartbeat." "This one I
did with Kar-Wai, talented guy, I liked working with him."

Hiring is an investment decision you have to live with every day. Fear and
greed the same as any other, allay the fears, stoke the greed.

Note this is not "The Answer" my best to all doing it a bit tough in the job
market. It's just one thing to consider if you haven't already, get the box
next to it ticked.

------
zappo2938
Over-qualified people are seen as a threat. The managers who hire, unless they
are the owners, do not want to deal with the office politics of someone who
truly knows more than they do.

If you are over-qualified for a position there is nothing wrong with playing
down your resume. Writing code is a new career for me and I don't mention my
previous management positions at all because I'm applying for subordinate
positions framing my resume accordingly.

~~~
brooklyn_ashey
I had a suggestion from a friend that I should just cut off everything from my
résumé that happened before 7 years ago. I have not yet tried this, but my
friend just started getting calls for interviews having done this. Do you have
any more advice?

~~~
gjmacd
This is what I was told as well. I'm 52, I have huge resume of experience at
some great companies (even my own company I built), the reality is, you get 10
years in, the person thinks you're his or her "Dad"... it's a little shitty,
but the advice I got was to do exactly this and I started getting more
responses.

~~~
brooklyn_ashey
Thank you for confirming this. I'll start using this tactic immediately. I do
think if we are forced to retire at 40 or even before, the younger folks in
the industry should get hip now, and demand much much higher salaries like the
athletes in professional sports do. And if it is collectively decided that no
one wants to start a union, engineers (and even those in other professions
now) should get agents just like the pro athletes do, because those
negotiations will require some seriously professional legal and negotiation
skill. People don't have time to become both Grace Hopper AND Jerry Maguire.
Imagine if sportsers had to negotiate their own contracts... those folks would
be abused and dumped.

------
YeGoblynQueenne
"you're overqualified" and "we only hire the best" is a bit of a
contradiction, isn't it?

------
jondubois
It's true that if you always do the same kind of programming work, you might
get bored and this can negatively affect productivity (in terms of raw
speed)... But on the plus side; your code will likely be of very high quality
and will almost definitely save the company a ton of money in the medium and
long term.

So yeah I think that calling someone 'overqualified' is a poor excuse.

Startups love code monkeys that can churn out features quickly; they're often
willing to sacrifice huge medium-term benefits for small short-term benefits
but that's idiotic. From my experience, it only takes about 3 to 6 months for
technical debt to become a major problem so unless you expect your startup to
have an exit in the next 3 months then you really should not accept any short
term solutions at all.

------
jordanpg
Appearance matters so much in this discussion.

There are 40 year-olds who are obviously 40 year-olds, complete with greying
beards, burgeoning bellies, and a wardrobe consisting of nothing but polo
shirts acquired from years of conference attendance.

And then there are 40 year-olds who could pass for 30.

My intuition is that the likelihood of ageism being subconsciously or
otherwise invoked in the former case is vastly larger.

In this sense, it is a lot like racism or sexism in the case of "culture"
fitting. The desire to _appear_ young and nimble, as a company, is a
significant part of whatever demographic they are shooting for, outwardly.

~~~
walshemj
Lol I am in my hem hem 50's some of my colleges though I was in my 30's
recently :-)

------
aryehof
Part of the issue is that programming is largely seen today as a process of
problem solving using an "agile" _hack it 'till it works_ approach. Quick
thinking to put out a fire or implement a quick feature using some new
technology easily learned is most valued, along with the ability to be
"flexible" when it comes to quality of work and workplace demands.

Given this, one might as well look to recruit some smart, cheap and
enthusiastic graduate. Sadly industry experience and lessons learned don't
seem so important.

------
blennon
Now that I'm in a position of hiring technical people, this seems crazier than
ever to me. It's hard to hire talented software engineers because they're so
in demand. I would be glad to consider eager and talented prospective
employees who I don't have to compete hard for.

------
abiox
i was unemployed for a while, and got a number of 'overqualified' rejections.
eventually i ran out of money to pay the bills, and was a few weeks from being
kicked out onto the streets... when i _finally_ managed to land something. it
was a fucking brutal roller coaster. sure is nice to have a roof over my head.

------
mirimir
I've never liked being an employee. And I liked it less and less, as I got
older. I also started getting rejected for being overqualified (plus having a
bad attitude).

My solution was consulting. And eventually, consulting as a testimonial
expert. Being older and overqualified helps in intimidating opposing counsel,
and impressing judges and juries.

~~~
AlexCoventry
I like this route, too, so far, though it's new for me.

I did meet a 60-year-old programmer the other night who said he can't find
consulting work anymore. I do sort of worry about one day not being able to
keep up with contemporary techniques, but it seems like that day is far off,
for now.

~~~
mirimir
I worked with a testimonial expert in his 80s, and he was getting ~1000
USD/hr.

------
pb000
So there could be a few more possibilities why an overqualified person is
willing to accept the job. Maybe a burnout if very high pace high pressure
work, could nsulting including. Perhaps chilling at the slower paced company
is perfect for him or her. If so why would he leave? I have known plenty of
folks who a really really want to mentor and contribute their experience from
decades of consulting, but not necessarily go back to doing it. Why not take
advantage of the fact. Also, from the employer's perspective give him or her
opportunity to do something else when the jobbia done and there's time to
spare. Opensource contribution on the clock, presales tasks maybe,speaking at
conferences, mentorship. Who cares as long as his job is done, he feels needed
and can find other things to do to not be bored. Does not take a lot to manage
a self starter.

------
Celarnor
This is fascinating to see.

I'm pushing 28, so every day I worry if the development job I have now will be
my last. I'm a hard, dedicated, loyal worker who has never left a company,
only swapping jobs when my old employers laid me off or themselves collapsed.
Unfortunately, I suffer from strong social anxiety so management certainly
isn't an option.

When I was 22, finding a job was easy. But once you have the portfolio they
say they were looking for in the first place, no one wants you anymore because
they're too afraid you'll jump to the next job paying $1k a year more or
whatever. Its dumb.

~~~
humanrebar
I've never seen anyone reject a 28 year old as "overqualified". There's
probably something else going on here, though I can't really help you with
what it is. I suggest taking some of your technical friends out for some
beverages of their choice and asking for some constructive criticism.

~~~
Celarnor
Most of the people I know in tech feel like they're aging out of the market.
Small web/marketing agencies--the only development jobs available around here
--want fresh grads for junior positions. Most of the time those are the only
ones available, as there is rarely more than 1 or 2 lead/senior developers
within the company.

I've never heard "you're overqualified" specifically, but I lost count of how
many times I heard "we can't pay what someone with your skillset is worth and
don't think you'll stick around because of it" when I was unemployed between
jobs #3 and my current one for 5 months, desperately applying to any and all
positions that got posted, like 'website maintenance assistant', 'adwords
manager', 'forms developer' and 'frontend developer'.

Eventually two weeks before my unemployment would have run out, a senior java
ecommerce developer position opened up, to which I currently cling with dear
life. :)

This might just be regional/bad job market thing, I don't know. Never lived
anywhere else but Maine.

~~~
humanrebar
Sorry to hear all that.

Unfortunately, ability to relocate might be essential in some circumstances.
At least until employers are more willing to hire remote workers, assuming
that happens eventually.

------
b0rsuk
As an overqualified employee, I think you should simply delete parts of your
resume to appear less skilled. A job is better than no job. I wonder why more
people don't do that.

~~~
GavinMcG
Gaps in your employment record probably look even worse, so that means
carefully underselling yourself in each position. That seems tricky, at the
very least.

Also, selection bias might keep those stories from being told.

~~~
b0rsuk
Not necessarily delete jobs you had. You can simplify the actual
responsibilities and achievements you had. You trade potential higher salary
for a higher chance of becoming employed. Later, you can ask for a rise.

Disclaimer: I'm currently unemployed.

------
alexnewman
And people wonder why everyone goes for the startup lottery ticket

~~~
cyberferret
Not sure why you were down voted here, but this is my EXACT rationale at the
moment. I am a 50 year old programmer who sold his software consulting
business a couple of years back. I figure the ONLY way I can stay actively
programming these days is to buy a ticket in the good old "startup lottery".

I've created 5 SaaS apps and around 10 mobile apps in the 3 years since I sold
my business. Almost all the early ones struggled or failed completely. My
current SaaS seems to be doing well, and I expect that it will see me through
retirement. I guess I finally got lucky on a winning ticket :) I would expect
a lot more players in this game as people age out of the software development
world over the next few years.

~~~
jlebrech
it's not 6 figure, but you can go from 5 figure to 5 figure jobs with no
hassle.

~~~
alexnewman
Now i just need to figure out how to work from somewhere cheap enough I guess?

------
bryanrasmussen
I had several interviews where the chief interviewer said I worry you won't
want to keep doing just frontend, and I was like but if there are tickets on
other parts of the stack I can do why wouldn't I - and anyway if I know parts
of the backend and the data layer that means I know where a ticket should be
fixed - most things can be fixed in the frontend but not everything should be.

I didn't get those jobs though.

------
taprun
What is results in is an organization without a focus on hiring the best
people. Do this for long enough and your company will die.

~~~
jessriedel
The population mostly is what it is, so there ought to be companies and jobs
designed for people who aren't elite. McDonald's doesn't focus on hiring the
best possible worker, they focus on hiring conscientious workers who are at
the appropriate point in their career/life that it's a good fit.

~~~
shill
The problem is that many interviewers don't know how to suss out a good
engineer. So they just ask questions that Google and Amazon ask. And that's
why you spend half of your interview pre-optimizing contrived algorithms down
to O(n) when the probability of the startup ever running code at scale is very
small.

------
ausjke
I want to buy a bag, just to hold my stuff, my budget is $100 for it, now the
store has a few luxury bags for sale, but they are all above $200 price tag,
what should I do? do I have to buy them? or I can decide to keep looking for
better performance/price ratio?

isn't over-qualify the same as too-inexperienced, that many companies are
reluctant to hire? bias is part of the real world, while I'm not young
anymore, I firmly support that the company has the right to hire who they want
to hire, after all, it's its private money, its decision and we're not
reaching communism just yet. It's the competition made USA USA.

------
gjmacd
I'm 52, I recently got a "pass" on a job that matched that I was told in
person that I would get an offer in writing while at my 4th and final
interview with the COO/HR person (not the hiring manager). I walked out of
that place thinking I had the job only to get an email from the hiring manager
(CTO) telling me that "if the job was a Venn Diagram, you fit 80% of the role,
I just think the other 20%, you wouldn't be happy and probably not challenged
enough." I was stunned. Venn Diagram?? come on man... Seriously? And email,
call and talk to me. Be an adult.

At first I was like "ok, not a fit." Then I had to realize I was probably 25
years older than he was and what he was really saying was "you're too old to
be working here." The tone of his email was exactly as this blog. "You're just
too experienced" \-- in so many words.

Sucks being old... But I replied in email that he was probably right, that the
role itself was a little below my level (truth) and that it was probably
something I would have had to work with him on. I also identified that this
guy (great guy, I liked him), was immature on the management side and every
co-worker that interviewed with me confirmed it by telling me how much "he
needed someone under him to do be the leader, be the buffer -- keep him
focused on vision", so they needed me -- or the younger me. So I felt
confident this was going to work. But he clearly felt I was too old...

It's a bummer. Had they offered me the job, I would have taken it and worked
through the issues and grown with them. The reality is, I was perfect for the
job and they actually needed my experience and my level of software domain
knowledge in this space -- they were young, struggling with execution and
accountability. I came to the realization that my age was both a benefit (to
the company), but a threat to the CTO (founder) as being too experienced under
you which would give him a lot of insecurity, but also having a guy that was
old enough to be your Dad work under you -- he couldn't handle that
(probably). Personally, for me, I would have had a blast. I love working with
younger people and I love the energy and I'm someone who can relate to people
half my age in many ways. Not to mention, I have all the modern stack
experience they needed and I'm a pretty fucking great guy for their culture.

So as a 52 year old developer, I never thought I'd say this, but I'm a
dinosaur and I might have to end up being a consultant or building another
company (again) -- which I did when I was in my 30's and young.

------
monort
When thinking about reasons for ageism you should account for consulting,
which do not have this problem (or at least it is less pronounced). The cause
is hidden in the overhead of full-time employment.

------
akerro
My previous company was rejecting 95% of overqualified applications, sometimes
because of their age, sometime because of number of their certifications in
their CVs. There was once a time, the company was offering totally average
daily wage for a contractor job, and we got a CV from a guy with almost every
possible Java certification from last 15 years. We knew we can't hire him, he
would be bored here and soon ask for more money, which the company didn't
have.

~~~
amorphid
> We knew we can't hire him, he would be bored here and soon ask for more
> money, which the company didn't have.

I recommend giving anyone who appears minimally qualified the benefit of the
doubt & see what they have to say before denying them a shot at meaningful
employment.

I used to run a recruiting company, and I couldn't afford to pay very much.
For example, I hired my first assistant as $15/hour USD when I was paying
myself $12/hour USD. This was in San Francisco, CA where a that kind of money
doesn't go very far.

Almost everyone I hired was overqualified, but that never seemed to matter.
Before I hired anyone, I said something like...

"Look, I can only afford to pay you $X, and you'll duties will be A, B, & C.
You look like someone who could get a job that's half as hard & pays twice as
much. Why do you really want THIS job?"

If they gave what sounded like a sincere answer, I'd hire them. It was as
simple as that.

One of my applicants had an MBA from a fancy school and had worked in sales at
a prestigious investment bank. When asked why the heck someone with that kind
of background would want to do entry level office work that doesn't pay very
well, the applicant plainly said, "My partner is starting a hedge fund, I help
my partner with in bootstrapping the fund, I'm looking for a little extra
money at a job with flexible hours, and I enjoy this kind of work." That
"overqualified" applicant was hired, and turned out to be one of my best
workers.

When you pre-judge an applicant based on the appearance of too much experience
& too many certifications, you are denying that applicant & yourself the
opportunity to explore what could be an amazing employment relationship for
both sides.

------
odbol_
I've been rejected from jobs because I was over-qualified. Then I got accepted
to one, which turned out later that I was over-qualified for that one too. I
did get bored, I felt like the job wasn't a good match for my skills, and I
went looking for a new job.

So the concern is indeed very real and can cause unneeded churn for a company.

------
tomrod
Reminds me somewhat of the Gervais principle.
[https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-
principle-...](https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-
the-office-according-to-the-office/)

------
madshiva
At my last interview, they reject me because "I'll not proper integrate with
the team"

------
neves
Maybe you should look in places that management is based in evidences:
[https://hbr.org/2010/12/the-myth-of-the-overqualified-
worker](https://hbr.org/2010/12/the-myth-of-the-overqualified-worker)

------
Celarnor
This is fascinating to see.

I'm only two years away from the cliff (30), so every day I worry if the
development job I have now will be my last. I'm a hard, dedicated, loyal
worker who has never left a company, only swapping jobs when my old employers
laid me off or themselves collapsed. Unfortunately, I suffer from strong
social anxiety so management certainly isn't an option.

When I was 22, finding a job was easy. But once you have the portfolio they
say they were looking for in the first place, no one wants you anymore because
they're too afraid you'll jump to the next job paying $1k a year more or
whatever. Its dumb.

------
peternicky
Can someone share a non-Facebook link please?

------
bernardlunn
ageism was the first ism I had to deal with personally, said the old white
guy. It is bad in every industry and job sector.

