

Ask YC: Has anyone switched from OS X to Ubuntu? - rob

I'm considering switching from OS X to Ubuntu full-time for both personal and development work. One of the reasons (although not the only) is that since I run Ubuntu on my server, I'll be able to develop on the same platform my apps will be running on. Before anyone mentions it, I do know I can run Parallels/VMware on OS X with Ubuntu virtualized, but I'd like to see if anyone has made the switch completely and if they either regret it or love it.
======
tx
I had two of them running side-by-side for several months now: I've been
struggling to make a decision between MBP+OSX vs Thinkpad+Ubuntu and ended up
with both.

Over time I find myself glued to Linux more and more: the software I like
tends to be native on Linux and somewhat foreign on OS X, and yes - I know
about Macports and I don't like it: too limited and too awkward compared to
apt. All in all, OS X just isn't particularly hacker friendly: it always took
me longer to do something on a Mac, the recent case was Python/Pylons stack
with some libs: I was done under a minute on Ubuntu while Mac took some
googling and IRC'ing to accomplish the same task.

Moreover, I keep hitting OSX limitations on less exotic stuff all the time:
the terminal is retarded by default, Finder doesn't really do FTP properly (in
2008! WTF??), windows are resizable only by bottom-right corner, font
rendering is worse than Ubuntu is capable of, Mac "spaces" are dumbed down
version of Gnome workspaces - the list goes on and on. The only area where OSX
destroys competition is their window management: I find myself Alt-tabbing a
lot less on the Mac.

Also OSX is too commercialized: people are selling freaking screensavers for
god's sake... So I am on Ubuntu most of the time now, the only thing that I am
envious of is nearly instant ruspend/resume on my macbook and, as mentioned
above, Macs window management.

But hardware plays an important role too. MBP+OSX wins head down against an
average disposable Dell/HP/Whatever, even Ubuntu powers can't help that junk,
so Thinkpads rule.

~~~
sunkencity
Totally agree but:

>But hardware plays an important role too. MBP+OSX wins head >Down against an
average disposable Dell/HP/Whatever, even >Ubuntu powers can't help that junk,
so Thinkpads rule.

Running linux on a mac is fantastic, the hardware is well supported, only
caveat is the one-button touchpad. And it totally pisses of Apple Freaks!

~~~
ken
So does Linux not support the scrolling trackpad?

~~~
orib
It does, but middle or right clicking is rather awkward (2/3 finger taps,
awkward key combinations)

~~~
ken
Strange; I find it easier. To right-click, I just put down my right finger,
the one I use for right-clicking with a mouse, and which is otherwise unused.
With separate physical buttons, I have to move my thumb to an uncomfortable
angle.

------
micktwomey
To give you a switch in the other direction story: I was a long time linux
user, always very happy and quick to defend it. However, I found myself being
ground down by hardware support and the pain it took to get basic things to
work. I migrated from redhat to debian to gentoo and was always ultimately
frustrated by the effort it took to get anything working. (Sound was always a
big source of fun.)

So a friend got a mac, purely on the grounds it was less hassle than a linux
pc, and frankly, after looking at all the amazing things he could do (wow, he
can plug in a vga cable and have the monitor work without restarting X) I was
seriously feeling won over. I finally bought a powerbook and was instantly
chuffed by the fact I could do real work and not waste time mucking about with
hardware. Honestly, my productivity increased by an order of magnitude. I
realised how much it was really my ego vs the machine when it came to getting
things working.

These days I don't faff about with macports or fink (they just don't work well
enough) but instead I run ubuntu in a vmware instance. To top it off, my
vmware ubuntu with 512MB of RAM runs faster than my dual core, 4GB ubuntu
desktop. Go figure.

Putting aside hardware support, it's the software I love. Mac software authors
have a wonderful sense of design and detail, which I always find lacking on
linux or windows.

I develop using python and deploy on a combination of redhat, debian and
windows boxes and the only real platform related pain I've experienced is the
repeated stupidities redhat enterprise inflicts upon people. (You know it's
enterprisey when they only give you five packages, forcing you to use random,
untested rpm repositories around the world.)

Ok, maybe the hardware support is the biggest reason after all, just this week
my linux co-workers were high-fiving over undocking their laptops without
having to reboot them. Most of the time.

------
ingenium
I've switched from OS X to Ubuntu, and would never go back. I'm not really a
developer, but I do some coding every now and then. Perhaps what I like most
about Ubuntu is that I can customize it to fix all those little annoyances
that I couldn't do anything about on OS X. It's also trivial to install
programs thanks to a real package manager (Fink doesn't count in OS X). GNOME
is also the only GUI I've found that lets you type the whole filename to jump
to a file/folder rather than jumping to the filenames that start with the last
letter you typed.

I suppose my biggest annoyance with OS X is that it doesn't let you actually
have control. A perfect example is that I have SAMBA turned on in OS X to
share some files to other computers on my network. For security, I have a
separate user account for the share. I can't configure the shares and
permissions in the GUI because it's not a "simple" setup, so I have to use the
config file for samba. Every single OS update I get overwrites this file, so I
have to re-create it every time. Furthermore, as of 10.5, permissions seem to
just spontaneously change. I can no longer get group permissions to inherit.

Another time, I needed to quickly use TFTP. Trying to get this setup in OS X
is a nightmare, and after spending a couple hours on it, I just gave up. It's
installed and there, but it for some reason its configuration is just non-
standard.

It's just these little things that make me glad I switched to Ubunutu, and I
would never even consider using OS X again.

~~~
tlrobinson
I prefer the OS X method of application "installation"... drag and drop to
your applications folder. That way (as long as the app isn't sneaky) I know
exactly where everything is location: the main application is in
/Applications, the preferences are in ~/Library/Preferences, and various data
is in ~/Library/Application Support.

~~~
ingenium
This is true, but a lot of OS X programs now require an installer as well, and
offer no way for easy removal. The simplest examples I can think of are
Microsoft Office and the various Adobe products.

Certainly many applications can just be dropped in the Applications folder,
and I admit this is a great feature. But I still have to go out and get
updates to those programs, and not all can be installed or removed as easily
as moving the application folder. With a package manager, it auto-updates
every program for security updates and sometimes bug fixes. If I add the
repository for that particular application, it automatically gives me new
versions when they come out. Everything is in one place. Furthermore, I can
search for software that does a particular task and be presented with several
choices that are just a click away.

I'm glad OS X works best for you, but for my needs and uses, Ubuntu is a far
superior choice.

~~~
wanorris
> With a package manager, it auto-updates every program for security updates
> and sometimes bug fixes.

Yes. That and dependency management are the towering wins of package
management. Installing an app when you first get it is generally the easy part
of managing it.

~~~
tlrobinson
There's a program called AppFresh for OS X that checks all your application's
versions against the latest known version.

------
sant0sk1
I actually just switched in the other direction. I ran Ubuntu for 2.5 years
both at work and play and loved it.

However, the hardware, GUI, and software offerings of a MBP were too much for
me to bare. I made the switch a few months ago and have never been happier.

Sure Terminal.app sucks but iTerm fixes that. OS X has a few killer apps that
Ubuntu can't compete with. Quicksilver, Skitch, and Textmate to name a few.

~~~
tx
Linux can't compete with Textmate? You must be kidding me. I could make fun of
Textmate and 37 signals who popularized it, but I really don't want to start
flamewars. Come on... Unix is the king when it comes to text editors for
programmers: vim&emacs rule.

Besides, there is simply co much to look at when it comes to pedestrian text
editing (Textmate style): netbeans, komodo, eclipse+plugins, aptana - all
built for Linux first, OS X - second.

~~~
mironathetin
My favorite editors are BBedit and Textwrangler. I can tell that there is NO
alternative on Linux.

Vi(m) and Emacs are great and powerful editors, but they have a completely
different philosophy than BBedit (or Textmate, or SubEthaEdit). If you are
looking for something similar on linux, you are stuck with JEdit. Although
JEdit is also a first class editor after years of using it I am bored and want
an alternative.

There is Nedit, Kate and this stuff. Not usable if you compare them feature
wise with JEdit or BBedit.

From my perspective, its the other way round: Mac editors rule and linux is
editing desert.

------
sanswork
I used Ubuntu at work fulltime for over a year. I kept OS X at home though.
What type of development are you doing?

Ubuntu is good but I would say that as far as unix like desktops go it still
has a long way to go to match OS X.

 _edit_

Just read through your posts and it looks like you're a webdev in which case
except for the lame PHP build OS X comes with by default(just replace it) you
shouldn't notice any difference that would make it worth switching over to
Ubuntu for except if you just generally perfer Ubuntu. It won't make your work
easier though.

------
mk
I'm running Ubuntu at work and OS X at home. For a workstation Ubuntu is fine,
but I'm not going to give up OS X. I develop on both and the experience is
similar, but the OS X gui is just what I prefer.

~~~
notauser
It does come down almost entirely to personal preference in the end.

Because of window shading, tabbing together groups of windows, focus on mouse
and vastly better terminal support (including Yakuake, a terminal that behaves
like the doom console) I am roughly twice as productive on Linux as on OS X.

That is before you add in apt-get, but honestly if I had to put up with Fink
on Ubuntu I still wouldn't switch because of the interface limitations.

~~~
sanswork
Completely agree that it is a matter of personal preference.

Could you explain what you mean by tabbing together groups of windows, and
focus on mouse? I definitely prefer macports to fink and apt to both.

~~~
notauser
Window tabbing started out in (I think) Fluxbox, where you can group a bunch
of application windows together and switch between them with Firefox-like
tabs. So you can have, say, all your windows related to one task grouped
together. Support for this is now in Compiz or as bolt ons for several window
managers.

There is a video of Compiz Group Tab here:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nK4_cH5sbM&feature=relat...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nK4_cH5sbM&feature=related)

Focus on mouse comes in several flavours, the best seems to be sloppy focus
with raise-on-focus disabled. When you mouse over a window it goes active so
you can type in it. Because it doesn't come to the front unless you click on
it you can leave your IM window/IDE/whatever half under a browser window and
still type into it. Truly a killer feature, especially on laptops where space
is limited.

~~~
cheponis
I don't understand why "focus on mouse" is any better than Windows' ALT-Tab
(to rapidly switch between windows)? It will switch between the two most
recently-used windows, or, if you hold ALT, it will let you switch among all
windows.

The best way to do window focus, tho, is, I think, to have you machine's
camera notice where you are looking, and automatically raise that window -
iris tracking and window raising.

~~~
notauser
Alt-Tab always brings the selected to the front, which is annoying. Sometimes
you just want to type into the bit of the window you can already see, without
reordering the stack.

------
mosburger
I use Ubuntu at work, OSX at home. I've customized Ubuntu with Avant Window
Navigator to make it a little more Mac-like (once you start using a Dock, it's
hard to give it up).

I've gotta say I agree with people who say it's easier to develop on Ubuntu.
E.g., to do Django development on my Mac with Postgres, I needed to install an
alternate, MacPorts version of Python (which ends up in
/opt/local/bin/python2.4, not in /usr/bin/python), get the Postgres driver
from MacPorts, then do all of my Django development with the alternate python
installation. Yecch. The Postgres driver wouldn't compile otherwise.

On Ubuntu, I just apt-get'd the packages and started developing.

And don't even get me started on Java development in the two environments
(yeah, I know, I'm a loser Java developer). The state of the JDK on OSX has
never been very clear (OpenJDK FreeBSD Based Java 6? Apple's Java 5?)

Anyway, just use what you like. If it were up to me, Ubuntu wins for hacking
and development, OSX wins for usability and commercial polish, but either
environment will handle both functions well enough to get you by.

------
tlrobinson
I finally made the move from PowerPC Mac to Intel Mac and I'm trying out
Parallels Desktop 3, and I must say it's pretty freakin awesome.

Coherence mode for Windows is very cool. Basically it lets you run Windows
apps alongside you Mac OS X apps. XP + OS X is pretty ugly, but Vista + OS X
actually looks ok. Coherence mode doesn't work for Linux, but windowed or
fullscreen works well.

Here's a screenshot of Mac OS X, Vista, and Ubuntu coexisting peacefully (it's
rather cluttered just because I wanted to show all 3):

<http://tlrobinson.net/misc/parallels.png> (480KB)

This is an excellent environment for any sort of cross platform work. For
example, I regularly need to use PowerPoint on Windows, test on IE in Windows,
test in Firefox on Linux and Windows, etc, but I'm most productive developing
in OS X.

------
pierrefar
I'm currently using OSX at work and Vista at home. Over the years I've tried
many OSs, including various flavors of Linux and BSD. I think I can answer
your question very simply: they all suck, and you have to find which one sucks
the least for you.

For me, OSX is mostly eye candy any keyboard junkie should steer clear of.
Also, it tends to be sluggish and not as responsive as other OSs I've tried.
The spinning beach ball (I call it the pizza of boredom) is a very common
sight.

Linux is about plug and pray. Maybe, hopefully, if you're lucky, things work
out well on your computer. I mean come on, Ubuntu, in 2008, made a big fuss
about the new (yes new) screen manager that lets you visually control multi-
monitor setups. Whoopie. Welcome to the '90s.

Vista is rubbish. SP1 made it better but it's still annoying. If it weren't
for the hassle, I'd switch back to XP. More than OSX, the eye candy is very
distracting and useless.

XP is old but darn good, kinda like an old pair of jeans. It has flaws but
they're familiar and known-enough to be fixable.

So should you switch from OSX->Ubuntu? Is your software Ubuntu ready? Are you
ready to drop to the command line fairly regularly? Are you ready for a
different GUI? It's certainly doable, and perhaps easy, but it's a lot of
"easy" steps to be taken. That may be too much work for you.

Good luck.

Pierre

~~~
mosburger
> For me, OSX is mostly eye candy any keyboard junkie should steer clear of.

Actually, when I got my Mac, one of the things that really surprised me was
how many other Mac people use keyboard shortcuts for everything. I think that,
contrary to what one might expect, having a particularly mouse-intensive
environment actually induces people to learn keyboard shortcuts more, to
become more efficient.

~~~
pierrefar
You're right, and I should have given an example of what exactly I mean: the
menus. Using Excel under Windows, I'm the master, knowing how to get to every
menu item starting with Alt-(menu shortcut). I don't even have to look and it
gets done. With other software, I'm not as good, but still better than
average.

On Macs you can't drive menus like that. That's a serious productivity hit for
me.

One question I would love to have an answer for: is this fixable using some
kind of hack or installation of a program or something? That would be awesome.

~~~
impiri
You probably already know this, but in case anyone doesn't...

Ctrl+F2 highlights the Menu Bar and lets you arrow-key around. It's a
cumbersome key combination, but I use it often when I can't remember a
keyboard shortcut.

~~~
andrewtj
Rather than using the arrow keys to highlight menu options I tend to type the
first few letters of the menu item. Eg, Window zooming in Camino would be done
by hitting Ctrl+F2, w, <enter>, z, <enter>.

------
wanorris
I have an OS X system that I use occasionally, but it's never been my primary
desktop.

Personally, I just prefer the way the Ubuntu desktop feels -- but everyone's
different. If you feel really at home with all the aspects of the Mac desktop,
Ubuntu's not going to feel right -- which is how I feel on a Mac desktop.
There's nothing wrong with the Mac desktop (other than that virtual desktops
were a bit borked, last time I checked), it's just a question of what feels
more comfortable to you.

Also note that Linux gives you a wider choice of desktops, ranging from Gnome
and KDE at the polished end to lightweight desktops like IceWM to funky tiling
desktop managers like ratpoison and xmonad. But again, if what you really like
is OS X's desktop, at best you can customize a desktop into a second-tier
knockoff of it.

The other consideration is what apps you care about, of course. My main apps
are Emacs, Firefox, and a terminal window, and switching those is pretty easy.
Personally, I like Open Office, InkScape, Gimp, and other Linux productivity
apps just fine, and I greatly prefer Amarok to iTunes. However, everyone is
different, so you may find something you can't live without from OS X. And if
you're wedded to something like Cubase or Final Cut Pro, I doubt you'll be
satisfied with the alternatives.

------
Jesin
Hmm. I'd suggest you try dual-booting (if you aren't already). If you think
you might want to switch completely but aren't sure, you could try using most
of your disk for Ubuntu but keeping a partition just large enough to hold OS X
just in case you change your mind.

------
siblog
Like many have said it is all a personal preference. You will get reasons from
Mac users why OSX is better and you will get reasons from Linux users why
Ubuntu is better......both are great Operating Systems, but in the end it is
just a personal preference.

And like others have also said I think the best way to figure out which you
like better is to dual boot. Try both the GNOME and KDE environments too.

I personally have been using Linux/Ubuntu for the last 2 years and have not
found anything that I can not do that I absolutely need. I love the ability to
customize everything.

In the end the reason I prefer Linux/Ubuntu is because I like the FOSS
ideology and the people/community behind it. I can find a free Open Source
application for almost everything, and if I have an issue I have thousands of
Linux users who have probably already come across it and know how to solve it.
The community has also put together a great idea-brainstorming site called
Ubuntu Brainstorm to better improve the OS for the users. Oh and Ubuntu 8.04
comes out in just a few days!

------
attack
From a developer's perspective, what's the appeal of all the glossiness of OSX
and default WMs on popular Linux distros?

Is everyone here more design/graphics oriented?

Between firefox tabs, emacs buffers, and GNU screen, I hardly make use of the
window manager at all.

------
sunkencity
When I do solely server work I like to boot my mac into Gentoo linux, but I am
considering to switch to Brownix because I'm starting to think that Ubuntu is
what I want to run the servers on as they grow more plentiful. I run the wmii
X11 window manager, and it's fantastic for my productivity. Totally get's out
of the way.

When booting OS X I still have most of the terminals in wmii on the crappy
Xorg that comes with leopard. I still have to have a few iTerms because it's a
pita to copy and paste to Xorg. Periodically I do a lot of graphics work and
then I need to be in OSX. Working with large number of files in for example
web projects are great to do in TextMate too.

------
icey
I'm making this switch right now... I was getting ready to buy a macbook pro
to replace my macbook, and made the realization that I use OS X to run *nix
applications; so why not jump directly over to linux?

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread =D

------
macnod
I think in extremes:

If you're a computer and software user, OSX is the way to go.

If you're a hacker, you can code in more than 10 programming languages, and
you've been writing code for more than 10 years, then you'll be way better off
with Ubuntu.

If you're somewhere in between, stick with OSX.

Forget about Windows for now. But don't be surprised if they come out with
something truly wonderful some day.

------
mronge
I think both are very productive platforms. I use both, but for me Mac OS X is
better.

The big reason for me is that there are apps I rely on that run only on Mac OS
X. Keynote and OmniGraffle are the two biggies. Also, I find things "just
work" on OS X.

I spent an entire morning configuring my dual monitor setup on Ubuntu, for OS
X there was no setup. Also the instant sleep is a killer feature for OS X.

------
hs
I use OSX, Ubuntu and OpenBSD OSX for my SMS needs (probably can be done in
ubuntu) Ubuntu for mouse-related programs (GIMP, Firefox) OpenBSD for devel
and servers (~90% of my time)

Try OpenBSD, ... after a while, u will feel that Ubuntu is lacking

Ubuntu does not have FTP, SSH servers installed by default (must apt-get
things) ... in OpenBSD, it's just an edit to config away (ftp is installed but
not running)

Ubuntu's FTP client is crippled (mget/msend broken), No feedback on how %
file's transferred, freeze a lot too

apt-get is complicated (universe, stable, unstable and what not). OpenBSD just
uses pkg_add (tgz files) and PKG_PATH set to an FTP server ... really simple

Ubuntu is pretty secure; by being weak, it can't do a lot of damage. OpenBSD
is very secure ... and dangerous if u need the power

To me, Ubuntu feels like that it's designed for mass by a committee - the devs
themselves may not use it

Of course, I downloaded the Ubuntu DESKTOP (not the server version) ... and
use it as such (desktop, i don't care if it's weak) and comparing desktop vs
server OS is like comparing apple to orange, right? I'm sorry for ignoring
Ubuntu server OS

NB: it's not a bashing against Ubuntu, I in fact use it, mainly for new
hardwares (bluetooth, etc) where OpenBSD lack drivers

------
comforteagle
I ran linux on the desktop for a long time, switched to osx for the wireless
support, went back to linux (ubuntu at the time), & pined for osx again.

Linux is a fabulous server os & is better than windows on the desktop anyday,
but osx on the desktop is much nicer to work in (once you install all the
unix/server-ish tools you need).

------
cturner
They're both good systems. The OS environment you use has tweaks that you're
likely to love or hate that will influence the decision, but it's not longer
particularly relevant what OS you run on your desktop so long as you have a
solid web browser and can virtualise windows to deal with Office stuff when
you have to.

------
prakash
Mark Pilgrim did. Read "When the bough breaks" and other stories at
[http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/06/02/when-the-
bough-b...](http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/06/02/when-the-bough-breaks)

------
meat-eater
I just use linux on my servers and OS X on my desktop. Works very well for me
and I'm sure it also does for other people.

------
jasorn
I must be missing something. Is this still a question? The time for linux is
well here.

------
keating
Mark Pilgrim (of Dive Into Python fame):

[http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/06/02/when-the-
bough-b...](http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/06/02/when-the-bough-breaks)

<http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/06/26/essentials-2006>

Cory Doctorow (of Mac tattoo on bicep fame):

[http://www.boingboing.net/2006/06/29/mark-pilgrims-
list-o.ht...](http://www.boingboing.net/2006/06/29/mark-pilgrims-list-o.html)

~~~
tptacek
Both of them switched for political reasons, for what it's worth. If you use
and enjoy commercial Mac software, your politics are already somewhat desync'd
from theirs.

~~~
keating
I wouldn't call wanting to be able to get at your own data a "political"
reason.

~~~
llimllib
It's possible to use OS X without locking any of your data into their horrible
apps, I do it every day. That's a reason to switch away from Apple apps, not a
reason to switch off of the platform.

~~~
wanorris
Then again, if you don't use any of their apps, it's kind of a strike against
the whole "it just works" thing that's supposed to be central to why one would
use a Mac, don't you think?

~~~
llimllib
the _hardware_ just works. My computer never crashes. Ever. Sleep and
hibernate work without any tweaking, which I don't think is possible on linux
(IME with, literally, dozens of distros on laptops).

That's why I like my mac.

