
Tinder and the Dating Apocalypse (2015) - hacknrk
https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2015/08/tinder-hook-up-culture-end-of-dating
======
kyleschiller
One factor largely absent here (and actually obscured by their choice to
interview investment bankers) is the huge amount of financial anxiety facing
young people in America.[0]

Crippling student debt, a lack of savings and inability to find high-paying
jobs can make the prospects of starting a family or even serious relationship
hugely unattractive.

The assertion in this article that Tinder is great because you can hook up
“without spending any money,” sounds callous coming from investment bankers,
but for a ton of people, that's just the reality of the current dating
landscape. If you're focused on paying back loans and working pretty much
anywhere other than tech/finance/consulting, it really can feel hard to afford
to date the conventional way.

[0][http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/28/pf/financial-
anxiety/index.h...](http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/28/pf/financial-
anxiety/index.html)

~~~
sverige
There's also the high risk of marriage ending in divorce and losing half (or
more) of your financial assets when the relationship falls apart. That has
been keeping a lot of men from marrying, which is another factor that drives
some portion of them to avoid marriage by design.

~~~
smnrchrds
Wouldn't that only be the case if there is a huge disparity in wealth and
income between spouses? If professionals marry other professionals, similar to
how doctors mostly marry other doctors, that shouldn't be a problem.

~~~
closeparen
Given the gender pay gap, we should almost always expect there to be such a
disparity in straight couples.

Women's representation in a field (like software engineering, at 16%) is an
upper bound on the share of men in that field who could possibly marry female
professional peers.

~~~
smnrchrds
I didn't mean that software engineers should marry software engineers,
geologists marry geologists, etc. What I meant was professionals should
consider marrying other professionals, e.g. a software engineer marrying a
geologist.

~~~
Mz
Yeah, love should have nothing to do with marriage. It should totally be about
bank balances.

/s

~~~
smnrchrds
Love is important, but it is not the only factor. I think we both agree that
future plans, e.g. whether or not one wants to have children, are important
factors that should not be overlooked. I believe that economic status,
religious and political beliefs and affiliations, risk tolerance, etc. are
also important considerations. None of them is a deal-breaker, but these are
all things one should carefully consider before getting married.

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Bakary
The unintended picture painted by the article is that this state of affairs
only benefits attractive men. I'm not familiar with the platform but I somehow
doubt that the majority of male Tinder users can get away with rude comments
or a cavalier attitude and still womanize. On the contrary I keep hearing
about men failing to garner a single match or sexual encounter independently
of whether their behavior was crass or not.

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pbiggar
There was an excellent response to this:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/08/26/...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/08/26/hookup-
culture-isnt-the-problem-facing-singles-today-its-math/)

~~~
trentmb
> This surplus of women is not just “perceived” but very, very real.

Man, I must be a heaping turd then.

~~~
paulddraper
The author arrives at that conclusion based purely on the # of college grads.

But while comparing current numbers to past ones, he forgets that the
relationship between the sexes has changed significantly. E.g., women are far
less reliant on men. I think this would significantly affect the conclusion.

------
kyleschiller
Missing (2015) tag.

It's easy to read this as another shitty "millennial are ruining X" article
that piles anecdotes on top of popular stereotypes, though it is maybe worth
noting that marriage rates really are declining pretty quickly and
consistently [0].

[0][https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/23/144-y...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/23/144-years-
of-marriage-and-divorce-in-the-united-states-in-one-
chart/?utm_term=.799c9dafbbe6)

~~~
kyleschiller
If the whole "apocalypse" thing seems alarmist, consider that Japan's
birth/death ratio has been <1 for a while, and is now a matter of national
concern.[0]

Of course, that's only a real problem if our immigration policies continue
deteriorating.

[0][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Japan)]

~~~
wongarsu
Japan's birth/death rate is fairly bad, but at least their fertility rate is
increasing again since 2005 after steady decline. Given the current path they
look on their way to restoring a healthy birth/death ratio within a few
decades.

Meanwhile the US birth rate doesn't seem to be tanking from online dating[1].
There has been some decline since 2005, but it seems to be bottoming out and
is still well above 1975-1980 levels. In the grand scheme of things that's
just normal fluctuation [2]. Of course 1.85 is still way too low to be self-
sustaining, but Tinder doesn't seem to be the problem.

The EU fertility rate seems similarly unimpressed by the advent of online
dating (being above the levels of 2000, but still uncomfortably close to those
of Japan) [3].

If there's an apocalypse, it's the one caused by wide availability of the
birth control pill. That really upset out demographic pyramids. Online dating
meanwhile doesn't seem to have any measurable impact so far.

1:[https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?location...](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?locations=US-
JP&year_high_desc=false)

2: [http://www.prb.org/images12/us-fertility-
figure1.gif](http://www.prb.org/images12/us-fertility-figure1.gif)

3:
[https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?location...](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?locations=EU&year_high_desc=false)

------
newprint
I am 34 year old male, Baltimore, MD. Read the article. I feel sorry for the
both parties. By the time they reach 30, they will be cynical fuckers who
don't understand what is family is for. It is impossible to have sex with
different women(man) every week and not become cynical to the point, you don't
give a damn.

~~~
jonesin
At the same time, after 10 years of no interest in women and vice versa (I'm
30), and watching all my friends and workmates of both sexes go through so
much turmoil in their romantic lives, I've become a bitterly cynical fucker.
Of course, I haven't ever used any of these apps or websites - maybe I've been
left by the wayside because of it. I'm just not interested in finding someone
that way - I've no interest in a random hookup or a programmatic finding of a
long-term relationship.

~~~
newprint
You can't become Cynical fucker. Go through the turmoil. I am 34/M. And had
few women in my live. I meet a love of my love from Switzerland, 34F. Nothing
worked out, I was left devastated. But it is best experience in my
life(35y/o.M). Do it. You will become a better man. Majority of my friend
divorced by the time they reach 35-40. They have kids. They have someone to
look after AND they have kids that will look after them !!!

~~~
ImSkeptical
Did you have a birthday between the second and sixth sentence of this comment?

------
Mz
I decided at age 16 to opt out of "dating." To my mind, "dating" is about men
spending money on women in hopes of getting laid. It isn't a great courtship
model ( _courtship_ is the correct term for the lengthy process of
establishing a serious, committed, long term relationship).

Our dating practices are rooted in a culture where men make money, women are
primarily wives and moms. This is no longer true, so it should be no surprise
that dating is having a crisis.

Though it is sad to read about how victimized the women in the article feel.

~~~
corporateslave3
"To my mind, "dating" is about men spending money on women in hopes of getting
laid"

Real romance does happen, I have experienced it. Not everything revolves
around money, especially when you are younger. In terms of getting laid, women
actually dont really care about money, unless they are using sex to get a
relationship. They want to sleep with a hot guy that they emotionally connect
with for short term sex. The emotional and personal connection is actually
sometimes the most important, confidence matters.

"Our dating practices are rooted in a culture where men make money, women are
primarily wives and moms. This is no longer true, so it should be no surprise
that dating is having a crisis.

Though it is sad to read about how victimized the women in the article feel."

Generally its actually the opposite, women are not the victims. A large
proportion of average men are not able to sleep with or date women of their
same ranking until those women hit their late twenties. 80% of women are
chasing the top 20% of men, with the rest of men occasionally "getting lucky".

~~~
TheGrassyKnoll
That's kind of what I was figuring. 20% of the people getting 80% of the sex.
(I'm not in the 20%)

~~~
corporateslave3
But you can be

------
grzm
Discussion at the time:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10019149](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10019149)

------
Overtonwindow
The appearance of a limitless supply gives the false confidence that a perfect
match will be found. Technology, IMHO, has removed all courtship and romance
out of dating. It woukd be interesting to see more of a Tinder of blind dates,
no photos, and a requirement that you spend time talking on the phone or
texting the perfect before you see their photo.

~~~
corporateslave3
Yeah, its a trap generally. In theory your dating matches are limitless, in
reality they are much more constrained. This is how the dating atmosphere in
NYC generally works, a ton of people with too many mediocre options.

~~~
stepanhruda
Saw an article recently stating

* bottom 80% of the men all compete for 20% of the women who actually respond to them

* the other 80% of the women only respond to the top 20% of the men

~~~
0xCMP
Two rules of online dating: 1. be attractive and 2. don't be unattractive.

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olivermarks
Tinder Gold now number one app on AppStore
[https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/01/tinder-hits-top-
grossing-a...](https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/01/tinder-hits-top-grossing-app-
in-the-app-store-on-heels-of-tinder-gold-launch/)

------
megamindbrian
This is so toxic to developing a healthy han relationship. Aren't these people
afraid of being desensitized to emotional connection?

------
olivermarks
Great article. It's from 2015..Would love to see two authors/perspectives, one
male, one female, and to see what has evolved by 2018...

