
Linus Torvalds on new Chromebook Aura UI - simanyay
https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/EBgLFSHEFAK
======
jiggy2011
I think a lot of people are missing the point of what Linus is saying
somewhat.

He's really just addressing the elephant in the room by saying that as of yet
the whole open source desktop mess has failed to produce anything that looks
like a compelling , easy to use desktop.

If Google can produce a Linux based operating system that addresses the needs
of casual users and power users/technophiles (like Linus) and get it on enough
hardware (i.e not just netbooks but "serious" desktops as well) then they can
(combined with android) simply eat everyone elses lunch.

What is not so important necessarily is whether or not local storage or local
apps will "go away" but that Google understands that a modern OS needs to
treat "the cloud", i.e webapps , online storage , social networks as first
class citizens inside the OS. This is a metaphor that is missing (in a really
intuitive form) mostly from even new OSes like Windows 8.

Hard disks are not dead, but I think the idea of having C:\Program Files\\..
is. Even as a technical user myself the directory hierarchy is mostly just an
abstraction that gets in my way. My work (i.e source code) is in git, my games
are in Steam, my email is at google , my music on Spotify and all the "other
stuff" is in dropbox.

What I need is an OS that ties all of these things together seamless
regardless of whether the bytes themselves reside on the disk inside my
computer or on some website somewhere but can provide sufficient tools when
needed to fix leaky abstractions.

Let's suppose you could buy a new workstation soon that ran a nice clean
Chrome OS desktop but had sufficient memory and hardware level virtualization
that simply clipping in a "proper" Linux or all the MS libraries such as
DirectX that you needed to run Windows apps was a trivial activity that could
be abstracted away from the end user if required. Would you not be curious to
buy one?

~~~
dkarl
_He's really just addressing the elephant in the room by saying that as of yet
the whole open source desktop mess has failed to produce anything that looks
like a compelling , easy to use desktop.

If Google can produce a Linux based operating system that addresses the needs
of casual users... [they can] simply eat everyone elses lunch._

He also addresses the elephant in the room that the major Linux UI pushes that
consciously and grandly targeted those goals were grand steps backwards. That
the things the UI prognosticators _think_ users want, like abstraction and
simplification, alienated real Linux users like Linus. That normal users
missed features the UI cognoscenti banished as "too confusing," such as "easy
mouse configurability for things like how to launch applications."

When you talk about abstraction, metaphors, making the filesystem invisible to
users, and (most telling of all) appealing to "casual users" it sounds like
more of the same talk that we've had for many years now. The more grand and
self-conscious the community gets about user interfaces, and the more they
target non-techie users, the less useful the desktop environments become for
their actual users. That missing configurability that Linus laments, which was
sacrificed for the sake of "casual" users -- did we really attract a bunch of
casual users? Did we eat anyone's lunch, take market share from OSX or
Windows? Or did we just make our desktop environments less usable for the
people who actually use them?

Linus says GNOME was "useless" without that configurability, and that this new
device might be usable as a laptop if it had a terminal and a development
environment. That doesn't sound like a call for Linux environments to appeal
to "casual" users. I don't think Linus is asking for even more simplifications
to get in the way of his usage, like abstracting away the filesystem.

The elephant in the room is that Linux desktop environments did a better job
of giving Linux users what they wanted when that's all they tried to do.
Trying to give us what we didn't know we wanted has been a failure. Targeting
non-techie users has gained us nothing that we didn't already want for
ourselves. It's time for the community to get off its high horse about UIs and
go back to what it's good at, which is humbly (and very successfully) catering
to its own needs. And nobody should feel ashamed of creating or using an
operating system that never eats Apple's or Microsoft's lunch (isn't that such
a ten years ago obsession?)

(P.S. You know what's good at abstracting away the filesystem when and how
it's appropriate? Applications.)

~~~
slurgfest
For most of the 90s I remember hearing how Linux was so stupid because it was
derivative and behind the times and never innovated.

Now whenever there is an innovation, it is reviled and everyone asks for the
interface which looked roughly like Windows 95.

So I guess they listened to the wrong messages.

~~~
dkarl
What I remember people complaining about in the 90s was that UIs were unstable
and it was really hard to get X set up at all. Any complaints they had about
UI design were muffled by the tears of joy they shed when they finally saw the
black X on the screen instead of junk and patterns. But in all seriousness,
I'm not against innovation at all. I'd just like to hear about some innovation
aimed at existing Linux users rather than insisting that the users who
_really_ matter are the casual, non-techie users necessary for mainstream
desktop adoption.

Targeting "casual" users has resulted in some valuable work such as better
stability and completeness in many programs, simpler configuration interfaces
for many things (such as wireless configuration GUIs that were better than
Windows'), and better support for multimedia. However (leaving aside the fact
that those were all things that techie users were begging for anyway) there
was a downside. Customizability and configuration options disappeared. People
made assumptions about "normal" users that implicitly labeled a large chunk of
the Linux community abnormal. Case in point: if you configured your wireless
connection using NetworkManager and then switched to a different desktop
environment, your wireless connection might not work anymore. That might sound
like a bug, but it wasn't. It wasn't designed to work that way. How could that
be considered remotely acceptable? Because normal people don't use alternative
desktop environments. (Thankfully, I've since read that NetworkManager accepts
plugins that write to the correct system configuration files, though I don't
know if distros test and install them.)

And where's the payoff? What was the payoff supposed to be, anyway? Back in
the nineties and early 2000s many people assumed Linux had to make it on the
mainstream desktop in order to be successful, but I think we've put that that
misconception behind us. Yet people still hold up the "casual user" as the
gold standard that Linux is supposed to cater to, as if it were a moral
imperative. Few Linux users fit that stereotype. It isn't that we're
concretely knowledgeable about Linux. If you put ten randomly chosen Linux
users in a room, chances are that for every component of a running Linux
system there will be somebody in the room who is utterly unfamiliar with how
it works or how to configure it. Obviously we should cater to ignorance, if
only so we have the luxury of remaining ignorant ourselves. But there is a
general savoir faire with computers that it is acceptable to assume. By savoir
faire I mean whatever factor it is that explains why I am the person in my
family who always gets a call on the phone when someone needs help with
Windows 7. Even though I've never developed on Windows, haven't used Windows
for anything more than e-mail, web browsing, and Office in ten years, even
though I haven't used Windows personally in six months, _even though I've
never used Windows 7 or Vista at all._ They still ask me for help with Windows
7, and usually I can help them.

All I'm saying is that it's acceptable for Linux UI designers to assume that
the people using their UIs are likely to resemble current and past Linux
users. Take a break from innovating for projected, postulated, hoped-for
users. Innovate for the ones we already have instead.

------
yock
The most interesting thing to me about each of these little episodes is how
Linus, by creating the brilliant Linux kernel, is lauded as a sort-of-oracle
when giving his opinion about very non-kernel things. I quite like the simple,
opinionated approach to Gnome and Unity but my opinion (and others who may
agree with me) matters somehow less because I didn't create this great thing
that has nothing to do with UI design philosophy.

I guess that's the true value of geek cred.

~~~
slurgfest
I suspect that the people who approve what Linus says on this matter are the
people who already agree with what he says on this matter. Already having this
kind of opinion, it feels good for some smart high-profile to say it in an
articulate way.

It's true that liking Gnome and/or Unity seems to have a kind of stigma these
days.

------
tammer
I think all the comments about the benefits/detriments of Chrome OS as a whole
are a little off topic. I think the most important element of this piece is
Torvalds' recognition that "simple" UI doesn't need to limit a user's ability
to visually organize.

I completely agree with his comparison to GTK3 (and I think the same applies
to Unity). Forcing users into a singular workflow with limited options will
always seem somewhat inhibiting, regardless of how "easy to use" the UI may
seem. This crucial element is lacking from these modern Linux window managers.

------
losvedir
The understated comment in his post that really caught my eye was this:

 _"Today it decided to update itself to the new chrome version with the Aura
window manager."_

This will be a boon to the average user, as they'll have constantly up-to-date
software, and security holes can get patched as quickly as they're found. That
said, I would be concerned with things changing like that without my control,
but I expect I'm in the minority.

------
whackberry
This is one of my heroes, he never has let me down in his opinions. No BS,
straight talk, one of the very few relevant people still not sold out in this
business.

Turning the desktop into a retarded terminal for some company's javascript
apps is a bad idea, but some can't seem to grasp that.

------
psychotik
Anyone have a link to screenshots of the Aura UI?

~~~
AndrewNoNumbers
[http://googlesystem.blogspot.jp/2012/04/new-window-
manager-f...](http://googlesystem.blogspot.jp/2012/04/new-window-manager-for-
chrome-os.html)

~~~
prophetjohn
Looks like Windows 7 if it had OS X's launchpad.

~~~
checker659
I bet they wanted to make the UI as Windows like as possible because that's
what most of the users are used to. The fact the chrome icon sits where the
'start' button sits on windows clearly isn't a coincidence.

------
marcusestes
Apparently it _does_ have a terminal (Ctrl + Alt + T).

------
deet
It saddens me that Chrome OS is switching from full-screen windows to a
stacking metaphor. The opportunity to move to a tiling (even just two columns
like Metro) paradigm was there and would be a natural extension of the tab
metaphor.

Disappointing, although I'm happy to see progress towards an OS that treats
web apps as first-class.

~~~
robbed
Aura does do 2 column tiling

------
generateui
I like the cloud, but I really hate giving out control of my data. It makes a
lot of sense for public data (tweets, blogposts), which you want to share
anyways.

I see a lot of potential in a "drop": a personal cloud server installed at
home, with the same user friendliness as e.g. google docs. Public
data/services in the cloud, personal stuff at home. There still is enough
opportunity to integrate mmoc? (massively multiple online collaboration?) into
those apps. An example of this might be diaspora.

Many drops make a cloud, too.

~~~
nooneelse
I desire something along similar lines, TonidoPlug plus a rich app store.
Owned by me. Plug in and log on simplicity. The option to mirror it up on a
VPS rented by me if/when it needs a fatter pipe than my home connection. And
mmoc (massively multiple online collaboration) instead of Facebook et alia
sounds great to me. If someone wants to buy/use data about me, I would like
them to have to come negotiate with the source.

------
hsshah
While reading the post, I was not sure if the tone was sarcastic or genuine!
On a second read, it does feel like a genuine comment. Some folks should use
'Not Sarcasm' tag!

~~~
whackberry
That's the Linus way. You never know when he's being sarcastic, but mostly
he's being serious with a few sarcastic turns.

------
MatthewPhillips
I agree, especially about the Atom processor This computer is mid priced.
Other laptops in that price range use real CPUs.

------
benologist
I don't think a new UI is enough to make Chromebooks suddenly matter. I got
one at a conference and ended up giving it to a friend because the build
quality and specs were terrible - it looked and felt and ran crap without even
taking into consideration how different they are to _use_.

~~~
AndrewNoNumbers
What's sad is that they couldn't get the original Chrome OS to _feel_ any
faster in use than Windows 7 on Atom.

------
hisyam
I've never had the chance to try Chromebook yet, so does anyone know whether
Chromebook has a native terminal & a good text editor? I would love to turn it
into a web development environment.

------
fady
i've been using the first gen chromebooks since they came out and have to say
that the UI is a lot better than before. it felt like you could not escape the
browser unless you closed all your tabs or shut it off, but with aura you feel
at home with a "desktop" experience that just seems right.

the hardware is another story...they're great for light browsing and
netflix...kinda.

------
peterwwillis
UIs that have worked for people for years should never be replaced.

~~~
msh
So we should all be using the windows 3.1 ui?

~~~
peterwwillis
Close.

I've been using WindowMaker for 10 years. It's pretty perfect. No gimmicks. No
unnecessary features. Lots of flexibility. Minimal. User friendly. Fast.
Stable. _It just works._

If someone has used Windows 95 before, a whole slew of operating systems after
will be intuitive and a random user will know how to use it without
instruction. They don't need anything more advanced. They just need it not to
crash or bloat or change and become confusing. Most people just want shit to
work.

~~~
msh
Last time I used windowmaker it required hand editing config files, thats a
pretty long way from shit that just work for most people.

~~~
peterwwillis
I've been using this handy graphical tool called WPrefs that ships with
WindowMaker (since at least 1998). The only time I hand-edited a config or
menu was to enable functionality which nobody ever used (hiding all dock items
but keeping icons small and visible and preserving both global and virtual
desktop-specific icons/windows depending on context).

~~~
msh
I think I last used windowmaker around 2004 and I have a distinct recollection
of editing configfiles. Maybe I am remembering wrong.

I still think that OSX provides a much better GUI than WM, which should not
have been introduced according to your logic and so people would miss out on
improvements (but i miss focus follows mouse...).

------
AndrewNoNumbers
Time to boot back into Chrome OS on my Cr-48!

~~~
dustinrodrigues
Maybe not, though:

"The latest Chrome OS release is only available for Samsung and Acer
Chromebooks as Cr-48 Chromebooks will skip Chrome 19."

from [http://googlesystem.blogspot.jp/2012/04/new-window-
manager-f...](http://googlesystem.blogspot.jp/2012/04/new-window-manager-for-
chrome-os.html)

~~~
pinwale
Google will be adding support for the Cr-48 in Chrome OS 20.

From the comments: [http://googlechromereleases.blogspot.com/2012/04/dev-
channel...](http://googlechromereleases.blogspot.com/2012/04/dev-channel-
update-for-chromebooks.html)

------
wavephorm
The "All-Web" paradigm is coming, folks. And it really doesn't matter how much
you love your iPhone, or your Android, or Windows phone. Native apps are
toast, in the long run. Your data is moving to the cloud -- your pictures,
your music, your movies, and every document you write. It's all going up
there, and local hard drives will be history within 3 years. And what that
means is ALL software is heading there too. Native apps running locally on
your computer are going to be thing of the past, and it simply blows my mind
that even people here on HackerNews completely fail to understand this fact.

The computing landscape is changing right now, and any company that revolves
around servicing Windows desktop software is going to be in for a real hard
time.

Whether or not Google's Chrome OS is the eventual successor is not clear (I
don't think it is), but their general idea is correct. The all-network, all-
cloud world is coming whether you like it or not.

~~~
moistgorilla
Great, another prophet. Worst thing is, if you somehow are correct, you would
not stop shoving it in people's faces how right you are. Cloud is not the
future, not with the current US internet infrastructure at least.

Also why would someone pay 10 dollars a month for 50 GB of space in the cloud
when you can buy 1 TB portable hard drives for dirt cheap?

~~~
wickedchicken
> Also why would someone pay 10 dollars a month for 50 GB of space in the
> cloud when you can buy 1 TB portable hard drives for dirt cheap?

housefires.

~~~
unimpressive
If anything I'd be more worried about thieves stealing my data. (In the
literal, 'break into my house and take it.' sort of way.)

I know it's happened to at least one indie developer. And at least one youtube
blogger that comes to mind.

That having been said, local hard drives aren't going to die anytime soon.
Uncle McCarthy has not yet had his day, at least not on that one.

~~~
cantankerous
You know, encryption and a decently strong password pretty much seals the deal
on somebody physically stealing your data. There is no reason to _not_ encrypt
your home computer if you are so concerned.

~~~
unimpressive
>You know, encryption and a decently strong password pretty much seals the
deal on somebody physically stealing your data.

Maybe stealing it and _using the data._ If someone swipes my drive the data is
still gone. Even if it is inaccessible.

~~~
lucian1900
Backups, offsite too.

~~~
lmm
When you consider the time and effort required for a good offsite backup, it's
easier to just pay the $10/month.

------
drivebyacct2
I didn't know Aura was making such progress until my buddy got it on his CR48.
I'm tempted to remove Ubuntu and reinstall crOS to use it longer, but I also
still really appreciate my full Ubuntu environment.

If I recall correctly, Aura also serves as a real proper full window manager
and already has support for Wayland too!

------
loverobots
Love Linus but I think he is excited that someone is taking on Windows (cough
cough :)). Files on cloud are great, until you get locked out and lose
everything so...

------
pascalchristian
Chrysis (cough cough)

------
ebbv
Nobody else thinks it's an odd coincidence that this post by Linus and a post
by Douglas Crockford both on Google Plus were submitted two hours apart?

To clarify, I don't think it's a coincidence and I think Google employees
probably submitted these.

~~~
unimpressive
And?

They were both worthy of submission IMO.

(The Douglas Crockford post more than this one though.)

