
The Volkswagen Group is using IE6 as standard for displaying web pages - rmoriz
http://www.vwgroupsupply.com/b2b/vwb2b_folder/supply2public/en/die_plattform/sicherheit_und_technik.html
======
FuzzyDunlop
One time a few years ago I was contracted to redesign a large Mercedes
dealership's website.

They recommended IE6 too but the main issue wasn't what the user saw when
visiting the page, it was the supplier CMS used to administrate it. This was
enforced by Mercedes themselves, so all dealerships had to use it.

It was custom, and, this is no exaggeration, _impossible_ to use. There was
probably a 600 page manual, caked in dust in some forgotten supply cupboard,
detailing what exactly you had to do after you'd managed the Herculean task of
logging in.

Editing a simple block of text required 'unlocking' it, which would for some
reason lock other elements. And then when you did change the text it might not
have let you save it anyway, providing plenty of incomprehensible error
messages.

I must have put a mental block on the rest because I quit after just a day of
figuring it out, but my guess is that pages like that still exist because no
bugger can figure out how to edit them.

I'd be surprised if VW didn't use the same or a similar CMS themselves.

~~~
nihilocrat
This sounds like the most common reaction to users accidentally causing errors
in data: lock everything down and only allow a very specific operation, and
complain loudly and specifically (i.e., incomprehensibly) if they get out of
line, in order to protect the data. Did someone find a new way to screw up?
Add another restriction.

I sometimes wonder why these interfaces are so freaking common for anything
not facing the general public.

~~~
recoiledsnake
>I sometimes wonder why these interfaces are so freaking common for anything
not facing the general public.

It's simple, the choice is to either use it or find a new job. Quitting is not
easy or practical to many people.

Even the general public faces such choices with atrocious bank, DMV, govt
sites etc. written 10 years ago in with CGI or ASP. (and a COBOL backend).

~~~
mmahemoff
Yep and sites like this get the back button treatment if they're public sites,
but you don't know about it until you start working there when it's intranet
crud.

------
emilsedgh
"For security reasons, the Volkswagen Group does not recommend other browsers
like Mozilla Firefox, Opera, Netscape etc. as they show security gaps."

This probably means they have serious security holes which could be easily
triggered by other browsers.

~~~
joelthelion
I think it simply means that this page was written more than five years ago.

~~~
troymc
Indeed. Aol stopped supporting Netscape (the browser) in 2008.

Ref:
[http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200810/312/Netscape...](http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200810/312/Netscape-
Navigator-heads-to-the-twilight-of-oblivion)

------
cubicle67
This'd just be a case of yet another page that's never been updated. I think
my bank's site recommends either IE or netscape - site works fine, just that
no one's ever updated the required browser page

~~~
hetman
Though claiming IE6 was the most secure web browser in 2009 is still pretty
worrying.

~~~
cubicle67
er, yeah... that one's a bit more difficult to explain :/

------
moomin
Apparently they don't recommend other browsers as they show security gaps. I'm
glad the security experts of VW have finally decided to share their knowledge
with the world. A pity they don't make routers and anti-virus software, rather
than cars.

------
freedompeace
For a well-designed website, I must say, I'm a bit worried.

> The cooperation takes place by our Group Business Platform using current
> security standards and ciphering methods. A secure data interchange has high
> priority!

Because that's all there is to security.

> All data is transferred with a 128 Bit SSL coding and are even secured by
> your log in on our Group Business Platform. This ciphering method is used in
> all areas of the platform and is added with further certificates.

I didn't realise we could code in SSL.

> The Volkswagen Group is using Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 as standard the
> for displaying web pages. For the daily work with our platform, we recommend
> you to use the Microsoft Internet Explorer 6, too.

IE6 ftw!

> By using the current version and the updates provided by Microsoft we
> guarantee you a secure connection.

I must have been living under a rock; I thought that it was because Internet
Explorer was so insecure that I get patches every week for it. Oh, but then
again, those were security issues with the rendering, not the connection. It
must be the connection that is so important!

> For security reasons, the Volkswagen Group does not recommend other browsers
> like Mozilla Firefox, Opera, Netscape etc. as they show security gaps.

Oh. Okay. I understand.

~~~
5hoom
You forgot this bit in the technical requirements:

 _-PC or MAC with internet connection

-Web Browser (Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 is recommended)_

So... they mean a (pretty old) PC with internet connection then?

~~~
eropple
Hey now, there's Microsoft Internet Explorer for Mac. Supports high-quality
(broken) CSS1, y'know.

~~~
chc
Not IE 6. Mac stopped at 5.something.

~~~
p4bl0
Yup, but I remember IE 5.2 on Mac being a little better wrt. the w3c standards
than IE 6 on windows, so I guess the version numbers weren't really
comparable.

~~~
chc
It was better in some ways, but IIRC the box model was the brokenest thing
ever.

------
tzury

        By using the current version and the updates 
        provided by Microsoft we guarantee you a secure 
        connection. 
    

Tell this to Microsoft which currently formally stated: "it’s time to say
goodbye to IE6" at <http://www.ie6countdown.com/>

    
    
        10 years ago a browser was born.
    
        Its name was Internet Explorer 6. Now that we’re in 2011, 
        in an era of modern web standards, it’s time to say goodbye.
    
        This website is dedicated to watching Internet Explorer 6 
        usage drop to less than 1% worldwide, so more websites can 
        choose to drop support for Internet Explorer 6, saving hours 
        of work for web developers.

------
russell
Apologies for being mind-numbingly obvious, but this is an opportunity for
being very disruptive, and similar opportunities exist in every hide-bound
industry. Unfortunately you cant do it on a ramen or even a YC budget. However
if you work for a feisty player and can convince them that there is money to
be made in selling their back office software, you have a chance. A few years
ago I almost pulled it off until the principals realized the cost of HN grade
sr developers.

And most of you wont be in a position to do so, because you avoid these
industries like the plague. :-)

------
antimora
For some reason the corporate world is still stuck with IE6.

Just recently we were dealing with a large corporation that was still using
IE6 throughout the company and our web app had to support this browser.

~~~
rmoriz
The reason in Germany is mainly SAP (because of its popularity here)

Their Netweaver product was build with lots of ActiveX + OS stuff that's so
proprietary, that it will not work with even IE7.

Of course SAP has released upgrades but companies have to pay for it or change
larger parts of their ERP to be able to apply the upgrades. As ERPs are
propably upgraded once per decade, this will take some time...

From various access logs I've analyzed, I can say that Daimler, Merck (the
Germany Merck), Bayer, Deutsche Post and some Governments (Bundeszentralamt
für Steuern) still run IE6 in wide-scale deployments.

It seems that only view companies provide alternative, modern browsers to
their users or the users don't use them and stick with their IE6 default (as
they know from SAP Portal) even when browsing externaly.

~~~
cnvogel
Working in a ~50000 employee company that shall remain nameless I can give you
another datapoint from "big companies" out there:

We only got IE8 (on WinXP, Win7 will not launch for another year or two) this
year. And before that it was whatever IE version ships with WinXP.

The alternative we can use is a Firefox that has not been updated since its
rollout in 2009. And of course you are not allowed to use other than company-
managed software, especially web-browsers are tightly regulated, exceptions
granted only for a few chosen employees.

The policy regarding webbrowsers explicitly states that this is done to avoid
having people running outdated versions of them...

~~~
mkopinsky
Here's what I don't get. (Maybe someone here can help answer this.) My
company, with 18,000 employees, recently decided to upgrade workstations from
IE6 to IE7. It wasn't entirely seamless - employees still had to double-click
a desktop icon to kick off the upgrade. What I don't understand is why they
upgraded to IE7. Once you're going through the friction of doing an upgrade at
all, why not go all the way? Is the retraining coefficient that much more for
IE8 (or 9) vs. IE7?

~~~
tsotha
I can't say what happened at your company, but at mine (which is a bit
bigger), the IT people started "qualifying" IE7 when it came out. It took them
until after IE8 was released to get all the various internal groups working
and tested on IE7. The testing part was really the big piece, so they couldn't
just jump to IE8 when it was released because it would have meant months or
years redoing the testing cycle.

------
hm2k
Peugeot suffers with the same issue:

<http://landing.peugeotlink.co.uk/browser1.php>

I think this is pretty common through the motor trade. They simply cannot move
quick enough.

------
samd
Does anyone else get the feeling that the entire automotive industry could be
disrupted by a company that focused on design, usability, and modern
technology in their car interiors? It seems to me you could replace just about
every car's dashboard with an iPad and already be light-years ahead of the
industry standard.

In fact the problem seems to get worse as you add more technology and money;
if Top Gear is any indication the supercars of the world are all a usability
joke. They have a dizzying array of meaningless, misplaced, and practically
useless buttons. I believe on the latest Ferrari you can either see your speed
or your position on a map, but not both.

It seems very similar to the phone industry before the iPhone.

~~~
brc
Top level Mercedes don't have a traditional 'dash panel'. The entire area is
just one large LCD display. This generally is used to display speed/engine
revs/temp etc, but can also be switched for infra-red imaging, reversing
camera, navigation overlays and other things. It also can be themed with the
rest of the car, so you can choose a blue, red, yellow, etc theme for your
interior.

BMW have had HUD for several years, which overlay speed and turn-by-tun
navigation, which are very usable.

You can expect this type of thing in entry and mid level cars within the next
5-10 years, as the current model cycles pan out. Top Gear love to make fun of
these features, and indeed some are silly. But the vast majority work well and
have a lot of thought behind them. The version 1.0 of all this stuff is
already 10 years old.

Early experiments into touch-screen everything have proven to not be popular
with the car-buying public. Through experimentation, designers have found
that, for important functions (ventilation, radio, etc) a physical button in a
known location outperforms a touch screen interface every time. In my case,
this is because you can memorize the location and feel of a button and can
push it reliably without taking your eyes off the road. You can push it in the
dark at night time, and you get tactile feedback.

Touchscreen systems are already here, but will always bury less-used functions
like options and navigation, which is designed to be used while stationary,
while the more common functions will remain as dedicated push buttons.

Outside of the tech-geek world, function, function and function is prized much
more than interesting neat features. Take a test drive with the average car
buyer and you'll find that a simple, familiar and well-designed user interface
will trump a tech-fest every time. While there is a lot of technical interest
in 'carputers' the general public won't ever really warm to them. The big
sales winners are in things like self-parking and parking cameras/sensors,
accident avoidance and other passive safety systems.

~~~
samd
So touch screen only controls aren't the way to go. But it may not be
necessary to reinvent the basic controls of the car. Making a better climate
control system isn't going to win hearts and minds. But what would be very
interesting is a web-connected car with an API and a touch-screen device with
an open app ecosystem.

------
west1737
I can understand- at my last job (multi-national CPG manufacturer) the code on
all the internal webpages wouldn't even display in Firefox. Between the IT
workload and general paranoia / superstition of execs (any change is bad),
there was no motivation to upgrade internal software. So we made all of our
suppliers comply if they wanted access to any piece of the intranet. Just
easier that way.

For companies that don't rely heavily on internet tech, understanding why you
don't want to use IE6 is beyond most people.

~~~
freedompeace
Except that they're _boasting_ about how _good their software and coding
are_...

------
natesm
I see that you'll also need either a PC or a Media Access Control.

~~~
lawnchair_larry
Ah, that's why my Message Authentication Code wasn't working.

~~~
rbanffy
Good for you. I tried several hours of Murawarri aboriginal chants and was
ready to start with the Miappe ones... ;-)

------
robinduckett
As someone who works for a car dealership which uses these systems I can tell
you that the "VWG Desktop" intranet dashboards are only accessible via VPN'd
tunnels that you can't just "connect" to from the standard internet.

Further more, we use their systems with Chrome, Firefox and other browsers
with no problems.

Maybe the standard is different with the US, but in the UK this doesn't apply.

------
asadotzler
"By using the current version and the updates provided by Microsoft we
guarantee you a secure connection."

Is that a "legal" guarantee? Seems kind of dangerous for a company to make
that kind of claim about 3rd party software.

------
radagaisus
It's pretty common for big organizations. In one of our websites it is still
recommended to use IE5.5+

As much as I want I can't drop support for IE6, it's still 40% of my crowd
(old people ftw).

------
tibbon
A few years ago I remember thinking of applying for a position at VW, yet
their blind adherence to IE really turned me off. Its gotta be a indicator of
the culture there.

------
chris_dcosta
Funny - only the other day I posted on this:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3129438>

It seems that the current post "outs" the security function.

I wonder if it was carefully worded by someone who knew better as it appears
to be a very good advert for attracting "unwanted" attention.

------
rnadna
Even those who don't know whether the word "data" is singular or plural tend
to be consistent ... not this crew.

"All data is transferred with a 128 Bit SSL coding and are even secured by
your log in on our Group Business Platform."

------
kennyma
I hope this is because they haven't updated the content of the page in a
while.

~~~
idspispopd
<meta name="date" content="2009-10-20" />

Although even in 2009 I still wouldn't recommend IE6.

------
ToastOpt
"using the current version and the updates provided by Microsoft"

If you have a current, up to date version of IE, it's not version 6. We've
been trolled by what is clearly some sort of prank.

------
arunoda
I think this document is pretty old as they have mentioned Netscape which is
no longer exists. And even didn't notices Google Chrome. :-)

------
kaneraz
I found the link at the bottom to download Adobe as the cherry on top. Let's
make sure you have a few other problems along with IE6.

------
dlikhten
I am running osx, and I really want to be secure. How do I get this IE6
nonesense.

------
raphaelcruzeiro
This must be some kind of joke right? The trolling of the year?

------
arenbo
Some bank's have problems with new browsers, it's strange.

------
etanol
Is it april 1st already?

------
coldarchon
Somebody please explain to me what new browsers have that a car manufacturing
corporation needs for its daily business. Flash games? WebGL? Or a bit lower,
popup-blocker and google search field?

HELLO?

Obviously this entry is for unexperienced people of the IT, which neglect the
fact that your stuff is only safe as long someone hasn't found it's weakness.

<http://youtu.be/sforhbLiwLA>

AND - CAN YOU BELIEVE IT, REVERSI!

~~~
MichaelApproved
_"Obviously this entry is for unexperienced people of the IT"_

They are giving the unexperianced wrong information and making them
misinformed. If they want to help the unexperianced, they shouldn't tell them
that a secure experience can be guaranteed with IE6. They should encourage
them to use modern browsers which are still regularly supported with security
patches.

~~~
coldarchon
honey you DID read it's in their B2B folder? So this is for BUSINESS TO
BUSINESS and they want to interact in a secure way with small companies which
probably have 0 IT professionals and old software.

You only prove me ..

~~~
sp332
Old software? That can't be right, since the page expects everyone to have the
latest version and all updates from MS.

