
Secret gyms and the economics of prohibition - stephenbez
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2020/08/11/900895704/secret-gyms-and-the-economics-of-prohibition?s=09
======
readingnews
There is a crossfit gym that I pass by every morning on the way to work. It is
full, and never stopped during this pandemic. Even at 7AM, it is full of
patrons.

I would call the "proper authorities", but since there is a State Police car
parked outside every morning, and he is in there working out, just like before
the pandemic, I doubt calling anyone would do anything.

Adding to the post, I read it earlier... it is really strange that people feel
they have to go work out in groups. Or get together, or go to bars. I find it
amazing we can not see short term sacrifice for long term gain.

~~~
polote
> I find it amazing we can not see short term sacrifice for long term gain.

Maybe because nobody successfully proved to these people (me included) that
this sacrifice is useful.

You can't tell to people, you have no risk of dying (0.5% death rate for
population, much much lower for healthy and young people), people who are at
risk of dying can protect themselves even around sick people (wearing a mask,
staying at home, washing hands, ...) so this is not your fault if they catch
it but you need to stop living your life. That can't work.

And above all, what is the long term strategy, we stop everything for the rest
of our lives ? (a vaccine doesn't always work, example the flu vaccine, which
works approximately).

It is not that people don't want to sacrifice, it is just that scarifying is
the worst solution for everyone

~~~
esalman
US didn't have a federal strategy to deal with the pandemic. They shot at
their own foot and didn't give themselves a chance to be successful.

The rest of the (developed, and many underdeveloped) world dealt with it and
are moving on. I'm watching Champions league finals on TV and Wuhan pool party
clips on twitter, thinking wtf went wrong here.

~~~
polote
> The rest of the (developed, and many underdeveloped) world dealt with it and
> are moving on.

I'm not really sure on that, lets take greece, which was praised for their
strategy (I was in greece during the lockdown). They didnt have a strategy,
they just locked down before there was an outbreak and blocked flights, so no
spread. Now they have an outbreak because they stopped all there restrictions.
They were just lucky

Look at New Zealand, their strategy is to prevent anyone to enter the country
with covid, well that works as long as not a log of people fly to NZ. Now that
flights have restarted, they have like 3 cases so they lockdown the entire
city, well, doesnt seem very smart in my opinion.

The only countries which are doing well, are the Asian countries, China (can't
really trust their figure), Taiwan, south korea same as NZ, but restricting
all freedom of citizens.

The smartest country of all, is Sweden, never locked down, explained to
citizen the situation. Managed to get the situation under control without any
lockdown, and probably will reach herd immunity before anyone else. Time will
tell this is too soon to judge, but they seem well positioned for winning

~~~
nemothekid
> _The smartest country of all, is Sweden, never locked down, explained to
> citizen the situation. Managed to get the situation under control without
> any lockdown, and probably will reach herd immunity before anyone else. Time
> will tell this is too soon to judge, but they seem well positioned for
> winning_

I keep seeing this narrative but I can never find the data to support it. When
you look at the data, Sweden has the worst of both worlds.

1\. Among their neighbors, only Germany has more deaths than Sweden. Norway,
Denmark and Finland have fewer almost an order of magnitude less cases and
deaths.

2\. Despite not being government sanctioned, people still chose to self
isolate meaning that the still suffered the economic fallout of that decision.
Turns out, a global pandemic is bad for business whether or not your
government decides to shut everything down.

There is no metric by which Sweden is doing any better than anyone else, and
is doing a lot worse than their neighbors.

~~~
bazzert
>> 1\. Among their neighbors, only Germany has more deaths than Sweden.
Norway, Denmark and Finland have fewer almost an order of magnitude less cases
and deaths.

Geographic comparisons are of limited usefulness; MA had 10x the death rate of
near neighbors NH,VT& ME. There are too many other factors to consider. Sweden
still did better than UK, France, Spain, Italy and many others.

>> 2\. Despite not being government sanctioned, people still chose to self
isolate meaning that the still suffered the economic fallout of that decision.
Turns out, a global pandemic is bad for business whether or not your
government decides to shut everything down.

Mobility data would suggest otherwise; no masks, kids still in school etc.
Life has continued with some restrictions. We could have done the same with
similar outcomes. Economy definitely took a hit, but less so than other
eurorzone countries.

>> There is no metric by which Sweden is doing any better than anyone else,
and is doing a lot worse than their neighbors. The fact that the pandemic is
effectively done in Sweden is one. We still dont have an exit strategy.

~~~
entropicdrifter
>>The fact that the pandemic is effectively done in Sweden is one.

Acting like this is a foregone conclusion is the height of arrogance. Diseases
spread in waves. They could just be at the low point between two waves.

We won't _know_ until years from now. Just asserting you're right when there
are still this many unknown factors smacks of someone looking for data after
coming to a conclusion.

~~~
bazzert
>> We won't know until years from now.

fair point, but do you know that the under 65 excess deaths metrics for Sweden
is already almost identical to previous years ie. if you were looking at the
charts you would not even know they had a pandemic. I suspect "years from now"
looking at the US metrics it will be similar.

~~~
drran
Death rate is depended on level of D3 vitamin in blood. Wait for winter first.

~~~
imtringued
This is a very specific claim. I don't doubt you but something like this
should always be backed up with sources or people will dismiss you
immediately.

~~~
drran
See
[https://borsche.de/res/Vitamin_D_Essentials_EN.pdf](https://borsche.de/res/Vitamin_D_Essentials_EN.pdf)

------
adolph
Unlike actual prohibition, the social agreement behind "lockdowns" is subject
to time contingencies. The activities considered "essential" grow as time
passes. While there are nominal categories of "essential" defined by
community/political leaders, that contract depends on agreement. Since each
person's conception of "essential" is different, as time passes "essential"
grows exponentially instead of linearly.

~~~
henriquez
An extension of this is the notion of emergency authorities and people’s
perception of the weight they carry.

An emergency is an emergent situation, which must be new, evolving, and carry
the risk of serious harm. Emergency orders are based upon the idea that
executive authority must be wielded to quickly mitigate an emergency
situation. But a key attribute of an emergency (by definition) is “new” - if
emergency powers are extended month after month then they are based on a
situation that is no longer an emergency.

Now before you get angry, consider that we can agree that COVID-19 is a
serious threat that requires government action _without_ it necessarily being
an emergency or emergent situation. The threat has long since emerged.

Now we have a lot of governors issuing decrees based on emergency authorities
that they’ve been using for six months. This is quite simply a conflict with
our basic notion of democracy. We do not have rulers, yet our governors are
issuing rules purportedly carrying the weight of law with no oversight from
legislature.

Whether or not you agree with the orders, I think it’s intuitively likely that
you can see how this is essentially a disruption in the relationship between
people and their government, and as such it’s at least understandable how many
people would feel these orders carry no moral weight (even if they’re not
thinking from a legal perspective). And so the existence of gray market gyms
and parties is at least understandable, even if we don’t condone such
behavior.

~~~
dx87
> Now we have a lot of governors issuing decrees based on emergency
> authorities that they’ve been using for six months. This is quite simply a
> conflict with our basic notion of democracy. We do not have rulers, yet our
> governors are issuing rules purportedly carrying the weight of law with no
> oversight from legislature.

That was my biggest issue with the whole situation in the USA. All of these
emergency measures were done without any mention of timelines, all the while a
vocal part of the population was saying "fuck your freedoms", and "millions of
people will die if they lift the lockdown". It's like everyone forgot about
the Patriot Act overnight, and doesn't realize that the government doesn't
like giving up control after whatever "emergency" situation happens. Something
needed to be done, but this whole situation made me lose a lot of faith in the
government and my fellow Americans.

~~~
throwawaygh
_> doesn't like giving up control after whatever "emergency" situation
happens_

I genuinely don't understand this fear re: COVID.

Why would governors want keep gyms and restaurants closed post-COVID? What do
mayors gain by forcing people to wear masks post-COVID? It's in the
government's interest, as an institution, to open things up ASAP. They're
hemorrhaging money.

The things I'd actually worry about -- using COVID to justify suppressing
protests and speech, for example -- aren't happening even now.

The only way this theory makes even the remotest bit of sense is if elected
officials are malevolent villains hell-bent on literally any arbitrary form of
control even in cases where it undermines their own self-interest and
happiness. Believe it or not, governors and mayors enjoy eating out, some go
to the gym, and _no one_ enjoys wearing masks.

I do believe there's a very real danger of emergency powers being extended
indefinitely in general. But not in the case of health orders related to
COVID. Because the powers being exercised aren't the sort of things even the
most power-hungry person would want to enforce indefinitely. There's just no
motivation to do so. And, for anyone not experiencing a literal and extreme
psychotic break, lots of even completely self-interested incentives to get
things back to normal.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
The problem is, what's post-COVID? The virus won't be eradicated any time
soon, even after a vaccine arrives; most experts predict a timeline of decades
to never. I doubt many mayors are supervillains who want to keep people
miserable just for the sake of it - but I worry that quite a few might feel
like they _have_ to as long as cases are being detected. (Why do we still have
strict TSA restrictions, even though everyone agrees they make flying
miserable and everyone knows they're unreliable at actually detecting
dangerous objects in luggage?)

~~~
throwawaygh
_> I doubt many mayors are supervillains who want to keep people miserable
just for the sake of it - but I worry that quite a few might feel like they
have to as long as cases are being detected._

Why would they have to? It certainly wouldn't be in their electoral self-
interest.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
The concern is that we might end up in a state where COVID restrictions are
considered so obvious that they're not even a matter of electoral self-
interest; where abolishing COVID restrictions sounds as extreme as abolishing
taxes or abolishing the military. Many people say they don't want the
restrictions gone until COVID is eradicated, and I believe they're telling the
truth.

------
jcomis
While trying to buy workout equipment off craig's list I was solicited twice
to join "speakeasy" gyms. They had ads for a bunch of gear and when I inquired
they sent me a detailed response on working out in their private gym. One was
a large neighborhood garage that offered solo time by the hour, one was a
shutdown normal gym. Pretty expensive too!

~~~
three_seagrass
>Pretty expensive too!

Dumbbells are going for > $2-3/lb on various websites right now, which is
insane. Adjustable dumbbells are going for > $10/lb, which is over twice their
usual sticker price.

Gyms could lease out their equipment right now and make a killing.

~~~
52-6F-62
> _Gyms could lease out their equipment right now and make a killing._

Many have done just that here in Toronto. The equipment went very fast,
though.

~~~
perardi
I sought out adjustable dumbbells for a month. Ridiculous prices on Kijiji,
and full of scams. Thankfully I eventually found a place out in Brampton that
was welding their own, for relatively reasonable prices.

(And thankfully my gym is now open. Until we get a second wave and it shuts
down again.)

~~~
52-6F-62
Damn. Making weights would have been good business!

I have some resistance bands and used to use my buildings gym but they made
the process very convoluted since reopening. And with max time limits of 30
minutes each and only 10 visits a month.

That said I was very sick recently and lost a lot of muscle mass and weight so
I’m barely getting back to exercising now anyway.

------
reaperducer
It's not just gyms. It's underground bars, hair salons, hot stone yoga joints,
and all kinds of things.

While the hair salons were closed, my wife's hairdresser was texting her every
three days to get her into her underground makeshift totally illegal hair
place.

And slightly realated, quarantines don't work when people aren't actually
quarantined. There was an article in the newspaper last week or the week
before about all the people from California driving into Nevada to get their
hair done.

Just what the world needs: People who make poor health decision driving around
the country.

~~~
sushshshsh
"Totally illegal underground makeshift hair place"

I'm confused, if the participants wear a mask, will the virus be transmitted
or not?

~~~
moftz
Masks aren't 100% effective so being in close contact with someone for such a
long time (a haircut for women can take much longer than a typical trim for
men) carries a high risk of transmission from an asymptomatic carrier.

~~~
muffinman26
I find this to be one of the funniest supposed differences between genders.

I'm trans male, so I've gotten both female and male haircuts. Female haircuts
generally took _much_ less time. Put the hair in a ponytail, one snip, tidy up
a little. Even a buzz cut takes a little bit longer. It's also much easier to
cut long hair yourself than short hair, and people with long hair can go much
longer between hair cuts. It took me a while to realize that men's haircut
needs to be cut every 2-3 months instead of the once or maybe twice a year I
was used to.

Hair dying definitely takes longer, but it seems that can be done at home
easily as well.

~~~
Karrot_Kream
Thanks for voicing this! I've been cutting hair as a hobby for years (it's
funny, I got questioned a lot why I felt it was worth cutting my own hair and
suddenly with the onset of the pandemic a lot of friends of mine are much more
interested in the hobby), and the number of folks that think female haircuts
are more involved/difficult is astounding. Unless long hair is very overgrown
and needs to be relayered, it's generally really simple to trim it. Men's
haircuts are short enough that small mistakes are glaringly obvious, and the
haircuts need regular maintenance. My partner had some trepidation when I
first cut her hair, but since then she's recommended me to her friends (well,
pre-pandemic at least). She did short hair for a while and found the constant
maintenance to be a huge pain.

------
andrelayer
I think a lot of people in this discussion are pitting the argument at people
prioritizing their individual choices over the collective health of the
community. I think that is a very singular framing from one side. A lot of
people I know just believe that the virus itself is not as deadly as the
reaction warrants. The infectious mortality rate of Covid is at best twice
that of the normal flu, which isn't nothing and warrants action but probably
not 40M people unemployed and possible national depression. The fact is if
your under 30 you have a better chance of being hit by lightning then dying of
Covid. It's pretty rational for someone to understand that and make personal
choices without feeling like they're causing real danger to the community.

~~~
cowpig
> It's pretty rational for someone to understand that and make personal
> choices...

No, it's not; it's arrogant.

All of the epidemiologists and experts seem to think otherwise. What do you
know that they don't?

So far 172,000 people have died in the US due to Coronavirus, directly[1]. The
actual number of people who have died, if you factor in the effect of the
virus on infrastructure and missed diagnoses is about double that[2].

We're approaching the total death toll of World War II[3].

Your claim that it's comparable to lightning, which kills about 50 people per
year in the USA, is completely inaccurate and displays a grandiose arrogance.
An arrogance that, nationwide, has resulted in a staggering number of
tragedies this year.

[1]
[https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html](https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html)

[2]
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronav...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-
missing-deaths.html)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Total_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Total_deaths_by_country)

~~~
bazzert
>> We're approaching the total death toll of World War II[3].

assuming you mean the US death toll also bear in mind the median age of WW II
casualties was something like 26; while the median age for covid victims is
75+. Not to diminish the latter but they are very different.

~~~
aflag
Not sure if I follow your point? Are you saying this is less of a tragety
because these people lived 50 years longer?

~~~
liability
Yes, it is less of a tragedy when an old person dies. Old people have less of
their life to lose and have less remaining potential to contribute to society.
The death of children is always more tragic than the death of elderly people.

This isn't a perspective exclusive to young people either. Last year my
grandfather died and my cousin had a miscarriage. My grandmother was far more
distraught over the latter because she understood that her husband, who she'd
loved for nearly 60 years, had already lived a full happy life. She said as
much explicitly.

~~~
aflag
It may be a cultural thing too. It is a lot faster to produce young
unqualified people than a really senior person. We are losing minds like John
Conway.

Anyway, I'd say my grandfather and cousin deaths (non-covid related) had about
the same impact on me. Dying is the tragedy of being alive, I suppose.

------
jason0597
I think it is a bit unfortunate that the conversation has completely derailed.
The article wanted to talk about prohibition and how it doesn't work (it just
makes the product unregulated and sometimes dangerous, either it be a gym or
drugs), and the discussion here seems to go on and on about mask wearing and
social distancing. I'm sure we've all seen this discussion before.

~~~
esthete_et_mat
It works for 95% of the population. Good enouth

------
alicemaz
so many comments arguing about what everyone in aggregate is morally obligated
to abstain from or morally permitted to partake in. meanwhile the article
itself is just about what people end up doing. "the government closed the
gyms. lots of people want to exercise together and/or with expensive bulky
equipment so they make illegal gyms." no amount of ethics lawyering is going
to change this

honestly I think the phased reopenings are partly to blame, once you say "this
is important enough, that isn't" everyone wants to do their things and
disparage other people's things. if they closed the gyms here again, I'd find
an illegal one. if they closed the restaurants, or the churches, or the
schools, I wouldn't care. but for the people who derive existential
fulfillment from their religion, or can't tolerate taking care of their
children 24/7, or [insert reason why people care about restaurants, I honestly
don't understand the upside anymore], my desire to go to my gym is selfish and
wrong but their need for their thing is inherently good and right

not to mention the fact that most of the country isn't locked down, and
there's no internal borders, and most people didn't take lockdowns seriously
after the first month or two of kumbaya we're all in this together stuff
anyway. so your individual actions wouldn't even move the needle. there's a
continuum between the hypervigilent closed societies where one person gets it
and they shut down the city, and the endemic countries where it's already
everywhere anyway so the best you can do is mitigate risk to a tolerable level
and go on with your life. new zealand, south korea, taiwan vs. mexico, india,
brazil. we're with india and brazil

and I don't think it could have gone any other way. americans are suspicious
and callous toward their countrymen and deathly allergic to being told what to
do. for better or worse, it's just in our blood. gotta make the best of it

~~~
heckled
> it's just in our blood.

How figurative is the blood you're referring to here?

I'm a naturalized US citizen from a country that dealt well with the pandemic.
I wasn't born in my heritage country, and so have always identified first as
an American. But, recent events demonstrating the "uglier" side of America's
sociocultural norms has left me wondering if >~40% of the country I recognize
as home don't consider me a worthwhile part of it.

------
eric_b
Where I live gyms have been open for some time. There's been no outbreaks at
fitness facilities thus far in my state. I have friends in various countries
in Europe who also lift regularly and their fitness facilities have been open
for months with no issues.

As always, a dose of perspective is necessary.

~~~
teachrdan
Did you read the article? It stated that the "underground" gyms had people
close together without wearing masks. (This can be understood to be due to
prohibition, of course.)

Is that the case with the fitness centers in your state?

~~~
read_if_gay_
It's definitely the case in my gym, which has been open for 3 months now. It's
unavoidable that people get close to each other without a mask in a gym. No
one is going to give a shit because the equipment is shared anyway.

------
iancmceachern
I saw an engineering services company I know of post a new job position for a
"care coordinator" to babysit their employees kids, at work, while the
employees work. My first thought was, isn't that a daycare? How is it
different in the eyes of the law? Edited- spelling

~~~
qppo
Since about April I've seen a daycare go on a daily walk with the kids every
morning and 3-4 adults supervising them.

~~~
iancmceachern
Here (SF), my understanding is that day care is only able to be open of they
are serving essential workers.

------
matz1
Bad policies deserve to be violated.

> Please consider reporting the details to the appropriate authorities

No, on the contrary I'm encouraging people to go out and resume their normal
activities.

------
wiseleo
Working out in a mask is very tough. It is a difficulty enhancement. I dance
in a mask at a pace similar to jogging and that is hard enough. I wouldn't
want to try to do a full workout that way. That would be the first order to
get ignored.

Is there a way to work out safely? Complete air replacement and surface
disinfection. That can realistically only be done outdoors.

As a club kid who refuses to grow up, I bring my professional club lights and
a mobile DJ speaker to the park to dance with a friend. She has a much harder
time coping with isolation and it helps her. It is a system for events of
50-100 people, so it is loud enough to mimic the experience. I would actually
be OK with us both wearing Bluetooth headphones like my JBL BT Reflect Mini,
which are robust enough to wear while dancing and doing crazy head moves, but
a club speaker sounds different because of the reverb from the surrounding
environment.

We still wear masks despite not touching and being completely outdoors. We do
not need to according to laws of physics, but not doing so would contribute to
the attitude that masks are optional. They are not optional. As much as I
trust my friend and she trusts me, there is no way to know with certainty we
can not infect each other after a day of interaction with other people.

One way to setup a safe workout would be to use the gym's parking lot and set
it up with gym flooring and 10x10' canopies. Portable patio heaters would keep
the person warm when warm weather ends. They are expensive, but one way to
solve that would be to setup a solar array and use electric heaters.

Another friend who is a Zumba instructor is hosting classes in a park's
parking lot. That works for her and her students and it is safe.

~~~
sneak
> _Working out in a mask is very tough. It is a difficulty enhancement._

I bike 25km every day wearing a full P100 respirator, the kind with
replaceable cartridges that catch organic vapors, like for spraying paint.

It’s fine, and not a significant burden. People complaining about masks are
just that: complaining. Respirators are built for doing hard, strenuous labor
in hazardous conditions. If demo crews can manage it, so can anyone else.

~~~
renewiltord
Haha, okay, you're very fit, clearly. People whose objectives don't prioritize
hitting your cardiovascular fitness won't want to do that.

~~~
sneak
I am decidedly not “very fit”. I’ve a 33 BMI and a lung condition (hence my
assiduous mask wearing).

Masks simply aren’t that big of an imposition.

------
dirtyid
Ironically, months of lockdown away from gym and weight gain has increased my
risk for lethal covid outcomes. Though looking forward to cheap surplus sales.

------
ww520
I can certainly understand people’s need to continue their exercise routine.
This is for their physical and mental health. As long as they keep the
precaution in place, whip down and clean up and social distancing.

For me I’ve canceled the gym membership and taking up biking. It has been
working out great. Discovered a lot more biking trials around the area. Got
plenty of sua shine and vitamin D along the way.

------
dillondoyle
I'm curious to check my ethics. I'm in Colorado. Currently climbing gyms are
open, limited capacity, with masks. I'm currently planning for winter. My gut
says in 6-8 weeks with schools + flu season starting there's good chance of
either shut down of gyms again or just too much risk for me.

So I've been looking for private commercial space. I already have a personal
wall need to move it indoors.

My question is what others think of the ethics of expanding from just myself
to trying to get 5-10 people onboard with a 501c7 social group to lower costs
and build more walls in a private space. Only allow one person in at a time -
mask-less (or closed loop groups for instance me and my climbing partner are
in a 2 person closed loop).

I'm currently trying to look at the last order to see if that's legal.

but now with this thread I'm questioning the ethics and curious what others
think. Besides the obvious unequal privilege that I can afford this luxury.

------
mbosch
I started toying around with the idea of building something out for a gym
sharing idea. [https://gymlender.com](https://gymlender.com)

~~~
abeppu
Related, I really don't understand why gyms in my city haven't turned to
renting out their equipment. I know people that bought dumbbells, over paid,
and picked from really limited inventory. Meanwhile, the gym a block away has
a giant pile of weights not being used, and has basically no revenue right
now.

~~~
zelly
They won't make enough on rentals to break even on the amount that people
steal and never return. A single 45 lb plate costs $60-$100 with covid
pricing.

------
fragmede
Personally, I'm less concerned about gyms. People in gyms are adults and can
theoretically stay 6-ft away from each other and wear a mask. I've seen high-
impact classes like kick-boxing being held outside in parks for better
airflow. Driving activities underground however, has well understood
unintended consequences of causing violence and disregard of health rules, as
we know from prohibition in the 20's and the drug war since the 70's.

The uniquely American issue, is with bars and clubs being closed. In the land
of big houses, everyone knows someone with a bar in their backyard or
basement. Keeping bars closed now, when everyone is fed up with the social
isolation (sorry, Zoom doesn't cut it) just means actual underground
speakeasies serving alcohol aka house parties. Where dedicated gym rats _aren
't_ drinking alcohol at the same time they're at the gym (it hurts gainz), and
are _can_ be more responsible for their actions, people on alcohol _can 't_.
I'm not saying that to excuse drunk people's behaviors, what I'm saying is
that trying to get drunk people to stay 6-ft apart and wear a mask is an
exercise in futility.

Since people are gonna be drinking anyway, _especially_ during a pandemic, and
a recession, and in the face of great uncertainty, _and_ on the cusp of a
presidential election, what's needed is to _open_ the bars, but require
patrons scan-in via phone app using the bluetooth-based contact tracing (PEPP-
PT), or else face suspension of liquor license. By making it required at bars,
you get around some of the privacy issues since those that don't want to, can
just not go to bars. Using bluetooth-based tracing gets around issues of using
GPS-based tracking, and also helps amplify the effectiveness of an under-
funded contact tracing corps by providing a technology based solution.

This is imperfect, but perfect is the enemy of the good, and even done
imperfectly, contact tracing can very successfully drive Re (the local
effective value calculated from a diseases' R0) down below 1, at which point
the disease doesn't continue to spread and the pandemic can be controlled. For
a disease like COVID-19 with an R0 of 2.5, it doesn't take too much to drive
it down.

------
auganov
I'm no fan of lockdowns, but comparisons to the prohibition of alcohol in
America are appeals to political mythology. You may argue it didn't work to
the extent some have wanted it to, but it did produce "positive" results on
almost every notable metric other than political satisfaction. By some
measures alcohol consumption only recovered to pre-prohibition levels in the
1960s.

In the big scheme of things it's just not a good example of anything relating
to effectiveness of government imposed restrictions.

------
peter303
I had been going to legal gyms for two months. The intense focus on hygiene
seems to be working since none of the 600 outbreaks inmy state has been traced
to a gym.

------
rsanek
>Christina learned that these swole, maskless bros were refugees from big
chain gyms like the YMCA and Planet Fitness

Seriously doubt anybody described as a 'swole bro' is coming from Planet
Fitness. They're pretty heavy on the anti-bro advertising [0] and their
business model is more about finding tons of people sign up that rarely
actually work out in their gym.

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Y4XY8Pl6U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Y4XY8Pl6U)

------
scottlocklin
The responses here are precious. Gym dudes: "leave me alone." Non gym dudes:
"you're going to kill us all by doing deadlifts." FWIIW in the interests of
full disclosure, I am thoroughly a gym dude, but have my own equipment and a
terrible case of misanthropy, so I've been working out at home for years.

I wonder how the paranoiacs who think deadlifters are going to cause mass
death mentally deal with the facts on the ground in Sweden. They seem to be
doing fine; all they did was prevent large gatherings; no masks, no shut down,
yet 4x better covid death rate than, say, Massachusetts, which is still locked
down as if we're in the black death. Nobody ever talks about Sweden, I guess
because they appear to have gotten it right, making fools of most of the rest
of the West.

~~~
wiseleo
[https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200813/swedens-no-
lockdown...](https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200813/swedens-no-lockdown-
policy-didnt-achieve-herd-immunity)

This from last week, cites studies. Short version: Sweden was wrong.

~~~
scottlocklin
Your source (by some dimwit reporter) _still_ says 4x as many Massholes as
Swedes died per capita; thank you, drive through. It is otherwise a non-
sequitur.

------
fortran77
I know of one "secret gym" that's extremely well ventilated, everyone wears
masks, and everyone is socially distanced. They don't do things that require
spots, etc. I think it's pretty safe. Only 6 people are allowed in at one
time.

------
ehnto
That's fascinating, and I had wondered if it were happening. I guess I was
right. Due to the timing of the last 6 months or so, I haven't been making it
to the gym as much. I started focussing more on mountain biking, I broke my
hand, then my clavicle, traveled to Japan, and then the pandemic showed up.

With all this more focused time during lockdown, I was tempted to buy my own
equipment and toyed with the idea of letting some friends come use it, it got
me thinking about the legalities and liabilities of that kind of thing.

If we go back into lockdown, I'll definitely be buying my own equipment. I do
powerlifting, so bodyweight and a few dumbells don't really cut it.

~~~
asdff
There is a suprising amount of work you can do with resistance bands. That
used to be the powerlifting equipment of choice before dumbbells and barbells
became fashionable in the bodybuilding community a century ago. You can hit
everything olympic lifting hits. Great reading here, along with tons of
examples of workouts and movements:

[https://yoga-horizons.com/pdfs/Fatmans-Guide-to-Cable-
Traini...](https://yoga-horizons.com/pdfs/Fatmans-Guide-to-Cable-
Training-2.pdf)

------
b0rsuk
In ancient Greek army, they had a death penalty for losing your shield, the
same as desertion. There was no such penalty for losing your helmet or armor.
Why ? Because they fought in a phalanx, and a soldier losing his shield
endangered not only himself, but also his companion on the left.

Fun fact: all Greek troops were named after the type of shield they used.

Source: [https://acoup.blog/2020/03/17/new-acquisitions-hoplite-
style...](https://acoup.blog/2020/03/17/new-acquisitions-hoplite-style-
disease-control-march-17-2020/)

------
xkbarkar
Jesus. All HN covid threads read like teenage internet trolls have taken over.
No sources for claims and full of outrageus anecdotes. In my country its
usually people living off the state that comment like this.

------
skapadia
We haven't evolved to constantly evaluate our actions against things we cannot
see right in front of us (in this case a virus). Nothing actually happening
during this pandemic is surprising in the least.

~~~
pyronik19
You think a disease with a case fatality rate of like 0.05 (probably like 0.01
for 20-30 somethings) would actually going put evolutionary pressure on
anything? These people are looking at the risks and making rational decisions
that its not worth shutting down your life.

------
daguava
Anyone supporting Gyms or high-traffic transmission areas right now are
clearly narcissistic. If this getting called out is an affront to you, you may
need to visit your physician to get diagnosed.

------
sergefaguet
yep, i've been going to a gym + sauna of a friend of mine the whole lockdown.
this is a thing :)

------
p1necone
The people denying the pandemic (or calling it a "plandemic"), or refusing to
wear masks because muh freedoms, or protesting lockdowns are going to be
_laughed_ at in history classes for decades. You are unbelievably ignorant,
selfish and arrogant. You are the _reason_ this stuff needs to be enforced in
the first place, because too many people completely lack empathy and critical
thinking ability.

~~~
notassigned
What do you think about Sweden, then? They seem to be done with this with no
lockdown and a small amount of death (accounting for old people who would have
died this year anyway, statistically)

~~~
p1necone
They've done significantly worse than other countries in the same region of
the world that did have lockdowns.

What do you think you're accomplishing by posting easily debunked
misinformation?

~~~
notassigned
>What do you think you're accomplishing by posting easily debunked
misinformation?

The data on Sweden is clear, they are down to near zero covid deaths per day
in a country of over 10 million people. Can't see how that can be debunked.

And how are they significantly worse? They are living normal lives.

Also, if something is 'easily debunked' then just do it.

~~~
p1necone
Sweden has had many more deaths than neighboring countries. The death rate
slowing now is not going to bring those people back to life.

[https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries)

Sort by deaths/million - Sweden is even higher than the USA.

I'm not going to reply to you any more, don't think you've won just because
you gish gallop on to another falsehood in your reply.

~~~
auganov
You're just picking who to compare Sweden to. There's no reason why we should
only compare it to neighboring countries.

Sweden had no lockdown and did about as bad as worst performers many of which
had a heavy lockdown. This is absolutely a significant piece of information.
If we had a no lockdown country getting the absolute worst result perhaps we
could settle the debate. Would UK or some of the other bad performers be worse
off without a lockdown? We don't know. There is no example to point to.

If UK could have had no lockdown and replicated Sweden's result then the
lockdown was a huge waste.

I'm not saying that you cannot compare it to Norway, nor am I necessarily
saying that Sweden couldn't get a better result with a lockdown. But even if
that were to be true it doesn't mean Sweden isn't an interesting data point
casting doubt on the effectiveness of lockdowns in some countries.

------
Ansil849
This seems incredibly dangerous. Are the speakeasy gyms requiring negative
COVID tests? Are they doing temperature screenings upon entry? How diligently
are they sanitizing equipment? How well ventilated are these various areas?

Why are people ignoring all of these risks, what kind of threat model do they
have?

~~~
hammock
You don't have to go if you don't want to. Surely your indignation would be
better directed at employers, schools and others who are requiring in-person
attendance.

~~~
danilocesar
This kind of answer shows why covid is hitting so hard in america. "I do
whatever I want, you do whatever you want"

it's not about the individual, what he wants or do. It's about this individual
spreading the virus to the community later on.

~~~
slumpt_
It makes me sad seeing a community I’d otherwise regard as intelligent being
so profoundly ignorant.

But I also acknowledge this is a western culture issue more than one of
intelligence alone.

Discouraging nonetheless. We’ve really messed up.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
It seems terribly unfair to call it profound ignorance. As you say, it's a
values difference. If you remember learning about "individualism", that's what
it means; it's the idea that the collective doesn't have unbounded authority
to tell individuals what to do.

------
mensetmanusman
Daily reminder that we have the technology to get society back to normal with
cheap 15 minute ‘good-enough’ covid tests that can be manufactured now
(millions per day). All we need is competent leadership in government to say
‘go’

------
Thorondor
Most commenters here seem to implicitly accept the framing of the discussion
around stay-at-home orders as some sort of tradeoff between different values –
for example, saving lives versus protecting the economy, or freedom versus
safety. But has anyone considered whether stay-at-home orders have actually
saved lives overall?

The UN estimated [0][1] that between 83 million and 132 million people will go
hungry around the world because of anti-COVID measures. Some of these people
will die from starvation or malnutrition. Some of them will die from other
preventable health problems later in life.

According to the Stop TB Partnership, a three-month lockdown followed by a
gradual return to normal over 10 months could result in an additional 6.3
million cases of tuberculosis and 1.4 million deaths between 2020 and 2025.
[2][3]

It's also plausible that lockdowns could lead to hundreds of thousands of
additional deaths from each of HIV/AIDS [4], malaria [5], and several other
diseases, though I'm not as confident about these numbers.

I am sure someone will be tempted to respond with some variant on "we could
have avoided these deaths by tuning the stay-at-home restrictions more
competently." Of course, that's true; but the point is that _we didn 't_. We
never do. Historically, every society that has tried to eliminate "non-
essential" jobs through central planning has eventually found that even when
the planners operate with the very best of intentions, they still make
mistakes. Dealing with one problem causes a cascade of other subtle changes
with real, harmful consequences, which are harder to mitigate when people
aren't allowed to freely choose how to spend their own resources. Meanwhile,
problems that are judged to be less important are forgotten, because planners
can only focus on a limited number of tasks at one time. Human societies are
incredibly complex. Trying to manage them from the top is like developing
software using the waterfall model: it would work perfectly with perfect
planning, but we all know how that works out in real life.

On a personal level: a relative passed away from cancer recently. Cancer isn't
a good way to die at the best of times; and I'll be honest, she almost
certainly would not have survived even with better medical treatment. But if
hospitals hadn't shut down "elective" and "non-essential" care, she could have
gone through a lot less pain and suffering. I am not trying to use this as a
bludgeon – I understand there are also a lot of people who have suffered
greatly from COVID, and of course, we should make policy based on what's best
for everyone rather than a small number of anecdotes. But when I read comments
saying things like "I don't know how to explain to you that you should care
about other people"... let's just say that I don't know how to respond to that
without severely violating HN guidelines.

[0]:
[https://data.unicef.org/resources/sofi-2020/](https://data.unicef.org/resources/sofi-2020/)

[1]: [https://africa.cgtn.com/2020/07/17/who-urges-world-not-to-
fo...](https://africa.cgtn.com/2020/07/17/who-urges-world-not-to-focus-
entirely-on-covid-19-at-the-expense-of-other-crises/)

[2]:
[http://www.stoptb.org/assets/documents/news/Modeling%20Repor...](http://www.stoptb.org/assets/documents/news/Modeling%20Report_1%20May%202020_FINAL.pdf)

[3]: [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/health/coronavirus-
tuberc...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/health/coronavirus-tuberculosis-
aids-malaria.html)

[4]: [https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/11-05-2020-the-cost-
of-...](https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/11-05-2020-the-cost-of-inaction-
covid-19-related-service-disruptions-could-cause-hundreds-of-thousands-of-
extra-deaths-from-hiv)

[5]:
[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-1025-y](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-1025-y)

------
frankzen
Under conditions like these, a thriving black market is inevitable.

------
zelly
Virtually all the people who died of covid were fat[1]. If the military forced
everyone to exercise (and diet, but that's harder to mandate than exercising)
it would have been much more effective than forcing everyone to wear masks.
(Masks are still good though.) Most of us are going to get covid even if we
stay inside all day (I got it twice) so this should be a wake-up call to be
prepared to survive it. Or don't, stay overweight and choke on your own blood
if you want--that's "freedom".

[1] [https://www.worldobesity.org/news/obesity-and-
covid-19-polic...](https://www.worldobesity.org/news/obesity-and-
covid-19-policy-statement)

~~~
alexrson
In the cited article, the only statistic I see on weight specifically is that
74% of critically ill UK patients were overweight or obese, which makes it a
risk factor but not the be all and end all, given what fraction of the whole
pop fits that category (~65%).

It also says that 99% of deaths in Italy were from patients with pre-existing
conditions, which would included weight related and non-weight related ones.

Regardless of COVID, maintaining a healthy weight is probably one of more
important lifestyle changes one can make to reduce risk of overall mortality.

~~~
zelly
The summary statistic leaves out the effect of age. Most of the non-overweight
people who died were old. The main reason you'd die of covid if you are young
is being overweight or obese:

> Patients with BMIs greater than 40 kg/m2 had higher death rates overall, and
> those with BMIs greater than 45 kg/m2 had a risk ratio of 4.18. Most
> strikingly, however, those younger than 60 years had increased risk ratios
> of 12 to 17 versus 1 to 3 if they were older; high BMI increased risk in men
> more than in women.

[https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-5677](https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-5677)

------
johnwalkr
Wow with these comments. You going to the gym is not saving the economy. Yes,
we can't shut everything down but you'd think the article was about shutting
down grocery stores or the stock market. And by not doing your part, your
whole community could be stunted for 2 years. Also congratulations for not
caring about a 1 in 200 chance of death (pretty high by the way) because
you're healthy and passing on the risk to some vulnerable person (probably
your parents or a school teacher) with a 1 in 10 chance of death. You might be
helping your personal economy, but you're not helping "the economy".

\- give up a few luxuries especially if they involve heavy breathing or eating
in close quarters.

\- Work from home if you can

\- Socially distance

\- Wear a mask when you can't socially distance

\- Go to work if you need to. Don't go to other people's work if you don't
need to

\- Support temporary benefits to your fellow citizens as you helpfully avoid
going to their place of work.

~~~
arxv33
I travelled all over Europe past two months and I must say Europe is quite
laxed. And there cases haven’t really gone up. Pretty much every outdoor cafes
in Europe were open with a few exceptions and I didn’t see much difference
other than people wearing masks and social distancing between tables.

I think in US everything is polarized and politicized. To the point that
wearing masks is somehow considered against freedom. I believe health
officials have some blames to share. They still have not come clean for their
initial mask guidelines that was blatantly wrong. I think health authorities
will have long time to regain trusts in US.

I also feel we don’t quite understand the transmission mechanism fully yet.
It’s airborne, at least we know that part but the clusters in nursing homes
and indoor parties also indicate there is some mechanisms in play when indoor.

~~~
svnpenn
Europe has twice the population of the United States.

Yet despite this, United States has 4 TIMES the cases per day.

Europe can relax because they worked hard in the beginning to get everything
under control. The US never did that, most states (like my home state of
Texas) did a half-assed closing for 3 weeks, so the numbers never really got
under control.

~~~
cm2187
It's not that clear that a lockdown helps. NY closed the earliest in the US
but was the hardest hit nevertheless. It has now mostly reopened and cases
aren't going up. Chances are we may have reached herd immunity there.

I have seen recently that serology tests in Italy have shown the same outcome
for people who were locked down than essential workers who were not locked
down (and mortality stats in the UK told a similar story a couple of months
ago).

Also the evolution of deaths in Sweden followed the same shape and timing than
all the other european countries who locked down, suggesting the peak had more
to do with the natural evolution of the infection than as a result of a
lockdown.

And as far as I know, the WHO does not support lockdowns.

I suppose things like how well care homes were protected probably mattered a
lot more.

~~~
enraged_camel
>>It's not that clear that a lockdown helps. NY closed the earliest in the US
but was the hardest hit nevertheless. It has now mostly reopened and cases
aren't going up. Chances are we may have reached herd immunity there.

No, this is absolutely wrong, every single sentence. Lockdowns definitely
help. New York was hit hardest because, despite closing the earliest, they
still closed way too late. Cuomo resisted calls from his health experts for
almost three weeks. By the time he gave the order, there were 5,000 daily
cases reported and the virus was practically out of control.

New York doesn't have herd immunity - not even close. Majority of New Yorkers
were not infected. [https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/nyc-hasnt-built-
her...](https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/nyc-hasnt-built-herd-
immunity-coronavirus-top-doctor)

~~~
vondur
How is this not true? It looks like NY city's cases are basically flat since
July.

~~~
TheHypnotist
Because we started to lock down relatively early and stayed that way for a
bit.

------
quattrofan
Prohibition=war on drugs. Funny how few are willing to admit it.

------
leptoniscool
So this is the cause of community spread in the US..

------
adolph
Once one gets past the sexist language like "swole, maskless bros," there is
an interesting idea in the article that a societal risk of long duration
prohibitions is the development of shadow economies and contract enforcement
mechanisms. I'm surprised to see such a libertarian POV from NPR.

~~~
biztos
Really, is every man who works out considered a "bro" now in America? That
word is used six times in the article.

I go to a gym with a lot of bodybuilders, and I often forget how much of the
world sees them as mindless thugs. And yet among us are at least two real-
estate executives, a famous death-metal singer, a handful of computer nerds, a
very famous (regionally) pop singer, a former Ambassador, at least one former
Olympian, and a bunch of Hollywood stars when they happened to be in town.
Plus, you know, ordinary men, women, boys, and girls who like to be fit, or
are trying to get fit. Some are large, some are not. The oldest is 75.

Evelyn should swing by the Bay Club and do a bro count, see how that goes.
Might offend a judge or two, especially if they're swole.

------
sngz
this thread is a perfect example of why we are so fucked

------
dmead
there is an amazing amount of garbage being said here.

wear a mask please.

------
DoofusOfDeath
Did the "shutdown normal gym" mean that patrons would be violating whatever
policies forced the gym to shutdown in the first place?

If so, that really bothers me. Any excess contagion would endanger everyone,
not just the gym users. Please consider reporting the details to the
appropriate authorities.

EDIT: If someone is inclined to downvote this comment, I'd be very grateful
for a clarification why (comment or DM). I'm trying to address some problems
in my communication style, and I can't always infer how I could have done
better.

~~~
hammock
Downvoting because it's none of your business. Honest question - and if you
choose to downvote me I'd ask you extend me the same courtesy you asked for -
how is a gymgoer endangering you, if you are staying 6ft from all others,
wearing a mask, washing your hands and not touching your face?

~~~
MiroF
How is a reckless driver endangering you, if you are driving safely?

~~~
hammock
Off topic, and there are some who would argue reckless driving or even drunk
driving is a victimless crime. The victimization occurs when (or if, since the
vast majority of intoxicated driving incidents result in no damage) actual
damage is caused to person or property.

~~~
WD-42
What kind of logic is this? Spraying bullets into a crowd is a victimless
crime unless someone gets hit, so we shouldn't prosecute otherwise? That's
some serious mental gymnastics.

~~~
0-O-0
It is a victimless crime if there are no victims. Maybe shooter should be
prosecuted for intent to kill someone in the crowd, but that's debatable.

~~~
MiroF
??? Shooter could easily be prosecuted for reckless endangerment without
intent, and rightly so.

------
have_faith
> Her work makes it hard for her to talk to reporters, so we're not using her
> last name

Surely if you feel it necessary to omit someones last name you should err on
the side of caution and omit their first name too? A fist name narrows a
search down significantly.

~~~
dfxm12
How do you know they gave her real first name?

~~~
slg
I didn't attend J-school, but that sounds like a questionable practice
ethically. A person has a right to be anonymous, but it should be noted they
are anonymous. Making up a name for someone without disclosing that fact is
questionable.

~~~
gowld
Using their first name to pretend they are both anonymous and non-anonymous is
worse than both endpoints of spectrum.

~~~
slg
It is ethical and expected for a journalist to obscure facts to protect their
sources. It is unethical for a journalist to fabricate facts to protect their
sources.

Also as someone with experience being anonymously quoted by journalist before,
it seems to be standard practice for the journalist to defer any decisions on
how they would like to be referred to the source. Odds are Evelyn is the one
who decided to just go by Evelyn. She probably doesn't care too much about
absolute anonymity, but she also wants plausible deniability.

------
A4ET8a8uTh0
I can't help but chuckle. Soon mob will be running speak-easy gym you will
need password to get in. Feds will start running sting operations. Fat
Americans will become heroes of the pandemic.

~~~
ta17711771
70%+ of population is a hero!

------
frickenhamster
You want to massively decrease the deathrate of COVID? (and death rates in
general)

Deal with the 40% obesity rate in the US.

Death rates are extremely low if you're not geriatric or not fat. All the top
killers are attributable to being fat and living unhealthy lifestyles. COVID
is the scapegoat here.

~~~
divbzero
Old age isn’t attributable to living unhealthy lifestyles, so I consider COVID
a threat in its own right and not just a scapegoat. But I agree with your
broader point that fighting obesity, smoking, and other health risks should
also be priorities even though COVID has greater mindshare at the moment.

~~~
frickenhamster
Its true that old people have a higher deathrate, but we'll see deathrates in
general drop in the years following 2020. Most of the people that are dying
right now already have a foot in the grave. We won't know the impact of COVID
specifically until many years after and a lot of data engineering. At that
time, people won't care and the sensationalist numbers will win out.

------
buttholesurfer
Lol the shutdowns will fuck us up for a decade.

------
nyxtom
This timeline sucks

------
jacksonpollock
63% of gym memberships go completely unused (Statistic Brain survey of 5,313
American gym members). I don't see this as a big thing.

------
dqpb
While they’re at it, they should setup some speakeasy urgent care clinics for
when they give themselves covid.

------
29athrowaway
Choose your own adventure

1\. Go to the gym during a pandemic

2.a. Your lungs are permanently damaged, with lower lung capacity for life.
Your life expectancy is shortened.

2.b. You are dead.

2.c. You did not develop symptoms.

3\. You passed on the disease to many people, including your friends and
family.

4\. Everything you wanted to achieve by going to the gym turned out wrong and
everyone now thinks you are/were a selfish jerk.

------
eanzenberg
It’s not even a secret. Outside, in Lake Merritt are roughly 50 people daily
working out with weights in the grass. No distancing. No masks. No fuss. No
china flu. No china cold.

~~~
dang
I get that your comments are advocating for contrarian opinion, and that's a
frustrating position to be in, but would you please stop doing it with snark,
flamebait, and gratuitous provocation? It isn't just that it breaks the site
guidelines. The problem is also that it discredits whatever truth there is in
your view, because posts like this give people an extraneous reason to reject
it:
[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=truth%20discredit%20responsibi...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=truth%20discredit%20responsibility%20by:dang&dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment).

This comment would be fine without the provocations at the end.

------
f38zf5vdt
As a non-American in a more or less socially unified country, I am really
enjoying all the responses from Americans in this thread.

------
diebir
I could never understand the point of a gym. Just a pair of running shoes.
Some dumbbells. I picked up slacklining and bosu ball training during the
lockdown. Why does one need a "gym" ??

~~~
zelly
Because a barbell, olympic weight set, squat rack takes up half a room and
costs $10k vs. a <$30 monthly gym membership.

~~~
asdff
You don't need all that equipment to work the same muscle groups. Honestly, a
$45 set of resistance bands is a great buy and these haven't experienced the
same supply runs that heavy, more obvious equipment has experienced.

Some great reading:

[https://yoga-horizons.com/pdfs/Fatmans-Guide-to-Cable-
Traini...](https://yoga-horizons.com/pdfs/Fatmans-Guide-to-Cable-
Training-2.pdf)

~~~
frickenhamster
Resistance bands are not even close to real weights. The feel is completely
different and the resistance scales in a way that is counter productive for a
lot of exercises. You don't have a constant measure of strength and
progressive overload is impossible. Resistance bands are already as a
supplement to free weight training but you can't get the same experience.

------
porknubbins
“Fancy fit”, that is brutal haha. Some guy probably spent hours every week
painfully doing the right mix of weightlifting, HIT and yoga to achieve that
lean but muscular look popular with a certain class of women, probably thinks
he looks tough and gets called “fancy”. At some point I’d just embrace being
fat.

------
grugagag
I see a lot of outdoor gyms in parks and what not. Outdoors is not only safer
but also more pleasant. And if it rains a bit running through the rain will
give an extra feat you don’t find in regular gyms. Ok, kidding about the rain
but I prefer doing my workouts outside the gym when the weather permits.
Calistenics aka exercises with the weight of your body are quite efficient and
don’t make one look like an ogre

~~~
cowboysauce
>Outdoors is not only safer but also more pleasant.

Speak for yourself. I live in a hot and humid place and exercising outside is
incredibly unpleasant. It's 10 times worse if you're standing in direct
sunlight.

>Calistenics aka exercises with the weight of your body are quite efficient
and don’t make one look like an ogre

What if I want to look like an ogre?

~~~
grugagag
You’re an exception and you are more than welcome to join a secret gym. I was
just pointing out to others that outdoors is a good option for exercising, at
least during the summer. If you want to look like an ogre you probably don’t
want to be seen outdoors anyways.

~~~
mitjak
i find ogres attractive, maybe don't shame people for having different
preferences from you?

~~~
grugagag
People are free to do whatever they want and look however they want, I agree
with that. I am not shaming anyone for striving to look like an ogre, it's
their preference but I still think it is an unhealthy thing to do to your body
and a fad. I have 2 friends who bulk up and are actually in a very bad shape
mobility wise, their arms are so big that they can't reach arms behind their
backs and stuff like that. Plus that they can lift big weights but don't have
much endurance and tire easily.

Sure, adding a bit of shape to your body is not a bad thing but exaggerating
it doesn't lead to good outcomes

~~~
cowboysauce
You seem to have some pretty fundamental misunderstandings about strength
training. Even very intense programs can be undertaken without turning into an
immobile blob of muscle. Strength is gained not only through hypertrophy but
also through neurological changes, particularly those related to motor unit
recruitment. Technique is also critical and fixing flaws there can lead to
large improvements.

>I have 2 friends who bulk up and are actually in a very bad shape mobility
wise, their arms are so big that they can't reach arms behind their backs

Bodybuilding is only one type of strength training. Furthermore, the primary
goal of bodybuilding is aesthetics, not necessarily strength. That's not to
say that they're not strong, but there's a reason why body building
competitions will involve flexing in front of the judges while olympic lifting
competitions won't.

------
ben7799
A lot of this fretting seems to come down to people who are bodybuilder types.

You don't need to be in a commercial gym to maintain solid functional fitness.

You might need to be in a commercial gym to maintain unnatural levels of
muscle mass and body weight for bodybuilding & powerlifting. Even that stuff
can still be done in a home gym setting though given an equipment budget.

This is not a health argument, it's not even proven bodybuilding is healthy..
excess mass from body building & powerlifting tends to have negative effects
later in life due to the metabolic strain of the extra weight.

Just deal with the idea you can stay super fit but you might not weigh as
much.

Gymnasts, rock climbers, etc.. are all ultra elite strength athletes that get
by largely with bodyweight exercise & minimal equipment. They just don't have
abnormally high body mass.

Outside of these arguments of "I'm too big and strong to get enough home
equipment to keep my gains Bro!" it mostly seems to come down to narcissism..
desire to be seen in the gym and to socialize in the gym. If that's such an
important part of being in the gym it's no different than not being able to
handle avoiding bars.

You can still have a training partner for spotting... just make sure it's the
same training partner and you both keep good behavior outside of workouts and
it'll be pretty safe.

------
dfxm12
I don't get it. Unless you're training for a very specific purpose (like an
MMA fight or football season), why do you need specific indoor gym equipment?
Shelter in place orders are largely lifted, so you can workout outside: run,
do pull ups on a tree branch, ride a bike, lift a heavy stone, do an outdoor
yoga class, etc. Hell, you only need maybe a 6' x 6' area for a perfectly
effective body weight routine, even inside.

I get that some of this can be related to body dysmorphia, but that's probably
a tiny corner case. Is it the thrill of doing something "illegal"/dangerous?
Is it more denial about the impact of COVID? Hustlers trying to capitalize on
a crisis?

Edit: based on some of the replies, it looks like it boils down to a sense of
entitlement: people wanting to stick to their routines without a care of
putting others at risk.

~~~
crazygringo
"Lift a heavy stone"? That's a joke, right?

Barbells and dumbbells are appropriately ergonomic (handles, balance, etc.)
and won't ruin your back if you use proper technique. Lifting a heavy stone is
a recipe for injuring yourself _severely_.

People need specific indoor gym equipment if they lift, which is a very valid
form of exercise. Or, you know, if it's raining or thunderstorming or a humid
100°F outside.

And bodyweight exercises only get you so far, even if you're doing one-handed
or one-legged versions.

You can't just dismiss the fitness routines people have spent years choosing
and refining and getting better at. The fact that you seriously suggest
lifting a heavy stone demonstrates you don't seem to know much about safe
fitness at all.

~~~
dfxm12
_You can 't just dismiss the fitness routines people have spent years choosing
and refining and getting better at. That's incredibly arrogant._

More arrogant than putting other lives at risk because you can't put your
routine on hold, or alter it for a bit? No. It isn't.

 _" Lift a heavy stone"? That's a joke, right?_

No, and it's part of strongman competitions. It's not dangerous if you have
the right form and don't overdo it. Same as dumbbells & barbells.

~~~
jimbob21
"More arrogant than putting other lives at risk because you can't put your
routine on hold for a bit? No. It isn't."

This is the part I'm confused about. If gyms were open, people who's lives
were at risk still wouldn't go to the gym. Only people who didn't care would
go. They are consenting to the risk that would inherently come with it. It
isn't the type of place that at risk people HAVE to go, so why shouldn't we
open it for people that are fine with the consequences? Also, restaurants are
all completely open for dine-in in many of the places that gyms have yet to
open. How does that make any sense? No one magically stops breathing for the
hour+ they're in the restaurant.

I think quarantine should be down to the individual and the rules they'd like
to implement on their private property (including their business), but you've
probably already gotten that by now.

~~~
PAGAN_WIZARD
>I think quarantine should be down to the individual and the rules they'd like
to implement on their private property

Too bad most people leave their private property and interact with people in
public spaces where their personal rules are moot.

