
Tiny electric car looks like a washing machine and costs just $6,600 - kerng
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/28/cars/citroen-ami-cheap-electric-car/
======
rjsw
There was a previous thread here [1].

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22438418](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22438418)

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Johnny555
_It has a top speed of just 45 kilometers an hour, roughly equal to 28 miles
per hour_

In the USA, we'd call that a NEV (Well, almost -- NEV's are limited to
40km/hr), and they are significantly cheaper than regular cars since they meet
lower crash standards.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle)

I wish NEV's were more popular here, they'd be great for short commutes, a 10
mile commute would take 30 minutes and you can fit more than one NEV in a
traditional parking space. I thought about getting one for errands around
town, but even though they may be legal on roads with speed limits up to
45mph, I'd be afraid to drive one even on a 35mph road since a 35mph speed
limit means most people are driving 40 - 45mph.

~~~
rossjudson
28 mph is pretty damn fast when you're riding an e-bike. I would absolutely
not feel comfortable going faster than that. It's all a matter of perspective.
If you're 14 feet up the air driving your pennyfarthing-SUV hauling your
collection of outdoor wizardry to the steam-engine conference, then it's slow.

~~~
Johnny555
A NEV isn't An e-bike, some look like glorified golf carts, others are fully
enclosed like a car:

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZENN](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZENN)

------
bane
The ultimate problem with these kinds of cars is that they're generally
intended for city driving. This is fine, except most city dwellers don't have
a place to park electrics that also happen to have an outlet.

This leads most ownership to be on the outskirts/suburbs of cities where
people will more likely have a domicile with some kind of garage or spec right
where they live so they can drive to/from the city or to a mass transit
station that serves the city and happens to have parking, yet too far out and
it's more likely that those people will need a more robust vehicle for their
driving needs.

There's definitely a market for these kinds of vehicles, but it exists in a
fairly thin band right at the edges of urban areas.

~~~
telesilla
For such a small car, perhaps it fits into a motorbike spot in a parking
garage, there are plenty of these to rent in European cities, a moment's walk
from the apartment.

~~~
Zach_the_Lizard
Here in NYC, a parking spot in a garage can cost more than a car payment AND
it won't have an outlet in most cases.

There is a small electric car charging pilot starting soon, but the rates are
so ridiculously high (2x retail electric prices) that gas cars would be much
more economical.

Source: I live in NYC and thought about getting an electric car to save money
when visiting family + make a few road trips cheaper

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numlock86
That senior writer at CNN sure must have a weird washing machine. But yeah, I
guess a title like that generates a lot of clicks and more mental fuel (ignore
the pun) to just point and laugh at EVs.

~~~
14
Had me wonder too. I am over 6 feet tall. Not too many washing machines I can
fit into. I think ride on lawn mower would be a more accurate description.

~~~
mmariani
I think the Renault Twizy [0] looks more like a lawn mower. At least this has
real doors and windows.

[0]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Twizy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Twizy)

~~~
petre
Doesn't have real windows. Maybe the Korean version does but not the EU
version.

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kwhitefoot
Here in Norway you can buy a used 2013 Leaf with a 24 kWh battery, double the
range and twice as many seats for less than that.

See
[https://www.finn.no/car/used/ad.html?finnkode=169083854](https://www.finn.no/car/used/ad.html?finnkode=169083854)

~~~
derekp7
I love comparing apples and oranges too. You can always find an older used car
that is cheaper than a new car. Now compare what one of these would cost used
in 7 years.

BTW, I recently bough a new bicycle that cost more than the first car I drove
(the car was a few hundred bucks).

~~~
kwhitefoot
> compare what one of these would cost used in 7 years.

Probably nothing at all, unless it becomes a collectors' item.

In comparison with other voiture sans permis like the Ligier or Aixam then
it's cheap. But if we allow comparisons with non-electric vehicles then you
can get a new Dacia Sandero in the UK for GBP 6 995, only about 25% more than
the price of the Ami:
[https://www.dacia.co.uk/vehicles/sandero/configurator/summar...](https://www.dacia.co.uk/vehicles/sandero/configurator/summary.html?conf=https%3A%2F%2Fuk.co.rplug.renault.com%2Fc%2FBABBi0AhhAjHiHhHj%2FA843Y)

Not sure what you mean about apples and oranges comparisons. Both of the
objects in question are cars, both the Leaf and the Ami are electric.

The Ami is much less car so one might expect that it should be much cheaper
and it is cheaper than a new Leaf or Zoe, but my point was that new cars have
to compete against both new and second hand cars. The only thing the Ami has
in its favour is that people without full driving licenses can drive one. A
point against the Ami is that it must not be driven on motorways and other
roads designated as express way. When one can buy a much better second hand
car with no such restrictions for the same or lower price why would anyone buy
the Ami?

Only a very tiny segment of the population would find it attractive.

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nonamenoslogan
I work under 5 miles from my home in a city in the Northwestern US. I ride a
50cc moped throughout the warm months here (anything over mid-50 F so late-
March through mid-October usually). I think a reliable sub-40mph electric
would work well for me the other times of the year provided it could drive in
the snow if equipped with reasonable snow tires.

~~~
kiliantics
Why not just cycle? That is a <30 minute trip by bike

~~~
DesiLurker
sweat, inability to bathe afterwards

~~~
Zach_the_Lizard
I biked to work in a much hotter climate (DC area) and managed to survive by
getting to work at 8am before the worst of the heat set in.

The afternoon was quite hot, to say the least, in the summer though.

With an electric bike I'd likely not have broken a sweat at all.

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Doctor_Fegg
> In some ways, the Ami is reminiscent of Citroën's iconic 2CV.

Truer than the writer thinks. It’s a deliberate homage: the original 1970s
Citroen Ami was a part of the 2CV range. Our family had one. Very few survive
now: I haven’t seen one on the move for about 10 years.

------
lefty2
Doesn't look like a washing machine to me.

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animalnewbie
I want to see "closed" electric bikes with wide tyres , basically a batpod
with glasses. Good in traffic, and cold/hot as I need it to be. Also cheap
enough for Mass use. China would buy two for each person.

~~~
dorfsmay
[https://www.podbike.com/en/](https://www.podbike.com/en/)

I just submitted as its own HN thread:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22457511](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22457511)

~~~
agumonkey
thanks, totally slipped my radar

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rhn_mk1
Reading the comparison to a classic, I took the minimalist philosophy to
manifest as a reduction in complexity, but I had to stop at the moment they
mentioned having a smartphone for gauges.

I get that this is probably a cost cutting measure, but putting enough
electronics in a car to make a smartphone an important component of it doesn't
fill me with confidence in the minimalism (and robustness, accessibility,
repairability) of the computers inside, straying from a chunk of what made
classics in the 20th century classics.

EDIT: seems that my post was misunderstood. I'm all in favor of cutting cost
and not having speakers or a radio, or gauges. But I seriously doubt that
minimalism is the leading idea in this car, if it has enough electronics to
drive a phone. The more electronics, the less minimalistic, and less
repairable an object is. I would not consider very minimalistic a vehicle that
has any digital electronics apart from the maintenance port mandated by law.

~~~
0xcoffee
It says it has the gauges, the phone is for extra info like range and
navigation. But I agree, having a car with no inbuilt radio/speakers will be
strange.

~~~
LeonM
> having a car with no inbuilt radio/speakers will be strange.

I actually like that part about it!

Most in-car infotainment systems (esp. in this price range) are useless
anyway, and are basically already outdated on the day they leave the factory.

You'll always end up with using your phone instead of the build-in system, as
it is orders of magnitudes better at doing everything. So why car
manufacturers even bother with trying to build their own systems always seemed
weird to me.

Not sure if the car has no build-in speakers at all, the article doesn't
mention that. Maybe it does have build-in speakers with bluetooth
connectivity, just no head-unit (frontend).

~~~
BlueTemplar
How do the speakers go obsolete? And in most cars the radio itself can be
easily removed.

~~~
LeonM
I wasn't talking about the speakers, but the head-unit itself. This is often
not just a radio, but an integrated unit with display, controls etc for
navigation, radio, HVAC etc.

In just about any car produced >2000 these radios are integrated in the
dashboard, thus not easily replaceable.

------
joosters
... _There 's only a minimal gauge cluster. An app in the driver's smart
phone, placed in a holder high in the center of the dashboard acts like the
central display screen in other cars showing things like driving range_...

Oh great. So without a working, compatible phone, the driver has no idea when
the car is about to run out of battery?

~~~
tom_
What percentage of people don't have a smart phone? What percentage of those
people would be in the target market for a little electric car?

~~~
michaelt
Almost everyone I know has a smartphone.

Literally nobody I know has a reliable connection between their phone and
their car.

~~~
Johnny555
My USB connections (for Android Auto) to my car are very reliable, maybe one
day a month I have an issue and have to unplug and replug, or more rarely
reboot my phone, but I've never not gotten it to work before my commute.

Bluetooth has proven to be less reliable.

------
micheljansen
What’s even more remarkable is that it can also be leased for as little as
€20/mo. That’s less than many people pay for their cell phone plan.

~~~
mrep
It's €2,644 and then €19.99 a month [0]. Super misleading.

[0]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22438418](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22438418)

~~~
micheljansen
Good point! Still cheap.

~~~
ianai
If you’re looking to spend 20/mo how likely are you to have about 132 months
of payments available up front?

------
agumonkey
I still think it's a good item at the right time. Lots of people are on
e-scooters or gyrowheel because they don't want a car, but it's unsafe.

Full fledged EV are over-sized for many urban users.

------
zoomablemind
Another link to the same announcement, with more pics, including a side
glimpse of the interior: [https://www.autoevolution.com/news/this-french-
electric-sofa...](https://www.autoevolution.com/news/this-french-electric-
sofa-car-spins-out-of-your-bedroom-141483.html)

This car even uses what looks like orange cloth straps for the inside door
handle. Cost cutting... or just another reference to classic model.

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kipchak
I like the concept of these, bridging the Gap between a small bike/golf cart
and a EV like the leaf, but at least for the US they unfortunately would need
to be bigger, from a safety and speed perspective, to catch on.

Maybe something smart car like with a 40-50 mph top speed, sub highway but
capable of matching speed on larger roadways. Unfortunately at that point
you're probably close to EV cost.

~~~
kiliantics
It's so sad that vehicle ownership has become a kind of security dilemma,
where people feel forced to constantly buy bigger. I used to cycle to work
every day and in recent years I feel less and less safe to do so as more and
more cars in the roads have become these massive SUVs and Jeeps. Cyclist
deaths are on the rise and it's no wonder when drivers have less ability to
see around their vehicles and far more momentum to hit others with.

What you are basically saying is that there is never going to be a market
solution to this problem, since no alternative could "catch on". We obviously
need government action if we are ever going to kill the addiction to fuel-
guzzling vehicles and carbon in general.

~~~
kipchak
The only market solution I can see would be an increase in gas causing people
to buy smaller cars. In 2008 SUVs and trucks did poorly vs sedans and hybrids.

For example the Ford F series models sold 690.589 units in 2006 and 413.625 in
2009, but has since climbed back up to around 900,000.

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harimau777
Very cool! However, I would be concerned about the safety of driving such a
small car.

~~~
Pxtl
The trick is that you wouldn't take it onto roads where people go over 30mph.

~~~
massysett
That’s the problem with this car. Only 30 mph means city centers only. In
those places there are already many other options for quick trips: public
transit, Uber/Lyft, old-fashioned taxis, membership car rentals (Car2go,
Zipcar), bicycle sharing, sidewalk scooters. With all that I don’t see them
selling too many of these. You buy it, you have to park it, which would be
expensive in many of the cities in which you could use it. All those other
options don’t need to be parked (not at user’s expense at least.) Even for car
rentals parking is a pain because you have to find it, even if you don’t have
to pay.

I could see a market of selling them to fleet operators who team up with
cities to get free parking for them, as Zipcar and Car2go do, but that’s about
it.

~~~
chrisseaton
> Only 30 mph means city centers only.

Or around towns. I could use this to go around my town, and to the surrounding
towns.

And people could use it around suburbs too.

So useful to people in cities, towns, suburbs, which is most people.

~~~
asdff
I'd say a moped offers more utility and range, and can be had for like a grand
used right now, but those haven't caught on in the burbs either. People have a
highway mentality in the suburbs. They'd rather get on for one mile and take
the next exit than take a parallel running surface road. Plus, suburban
commutes are long, even errands are long. This EV claims a 40 mile range, so
30 miles in practice. That can make some trips pretty tight whether or not you
get stranded, and there isn't going to be much infrastructure in the suburbs
where you can pull off and charge. With more range it would be more viable.

I think a city setting might be better, for cities without too much congestion
at least. Otherwise it's another vehicle on the road that could be a moped
taking up way less space to move a single butt from their home to their desk
in some office building. Cars pollute, but part of their harm in an urban
environment is also the amount of physical space that they demand. You can fit
way more people in an electric subway train than you can in a similar length
line of traffic of these vehicles, for instance.

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Retric
That lease pricing seems off, 5 years x 22$ per month = 1320$ which is likely
less than the depreciation. Include say a 2,000$ down payment and sure that
works except then the monthly fee is just deceptive.

~~~
martin_bech
The lease price is actually with about a 2000 euro downpayment, so your math
works out.

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eatmyshorts
So it is a golf cart? I must be missing something. I’m not sure why a golf
cart would require such fanfare. I guess because most golf carts don’t have
doors?

~~~
abootstrapper
I wouldn’t want to drive a golf cart in the cold or rain. But, this little car
looks like it could work ok in those conditions.

~~~
asdff
Provided the range doesn't take a nose dive due to the cold

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thdrdt
I like the fact that they just designed one door and one front/back.

It looks like this really reduces costs because the price is so low.

~~~
imtringued
It doesn't. There are cheaper cars that don't skimp on these things.

~~~
thdrdt
Can you name some? I am curious.

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Finnucane
If it is narrow enough to get down the little alley that leads down to house,
I’m in.

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JoeAltmaier
I'm 6'4" (193cm) and cannot imagine I could fit in that thing?

~~~
asdff
Hopefully they have a sunroof package

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buboard
Battery cars were never meant to be expensive

