
Canada-EU trade talks with Wallonia collapse as Freeland heads home - kukx
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-eu-ceta-brussels-friday-1.3815332
======
HorizonXP
I'm not well-versed in these trade talks, but you know what really grinds my
gears about Canada's current protectionism?

Butter.

No, really. In Canada, the dairy industry is run by a single co-op. That means
that all milk and milk-based products must be sourced from the co-op (i.e.
your provincial dairy bank).

So all butter in Canada comes from the provincial supply. Want locally-sourced
butter? It's nearly impossible to obtain, and even if you can, it's extremely
expensive due to tariffs. Want butter that's completely grass-fed? It's
possible, but also extremely expensive, and it comes from the provincial bank,
so it's possibly mixed with other cows and/or milk. And all butter is 80% milk
fat, which is abysmally low. European dairy is 85%, sometimes 90+%.

Only very recently has it been possible to buy "New Zealand" grass-fed butter
here, but it's $11 per 1/2 pound, likely due to import tariffs. And it goes
through a local dairy, so I'm not 100% confident it's truly New Zealand milk.
Nor can I confirm its fat percentage, so I could be just paying for a lot of
water.

If you want to drive across the border to buy butter and bring it back, be
prepared to answer a lot of questions to the CBSA, and possibly pay more
tariffs, making it prohibitively expensive.

This applies to most other agricultural products too, like cheese, eggs,
wheat, and more. Getting good cheese in Canada is expensive and hard.

The fact that the article mentions that the CETA made strides in agricultural
issues tells me that what I cited above is a possible issue in these trade
negotiations. The same was true for TPP.

I'll be really happy when these trade deals pass so I can get some real food
at a decent price, and my local farmers can be given an opportunity to
compete. Until then, the biggest opponents to these deals are farmers. That
should make you question their motives.

~~~
vkou
> If you want to drive across the border to buy butter and bring it back, be
> prepared to answer a lot of questions to the CBSA, and possibly pay more
> tariffs, making it prohibitively expensive.

My father does a lot of cross-border shopping at an American Costco (BC ->
Washington). Among other groceries, he always buys butter, cheese, milk, and
often brings back various second-hand/electronic goods shipped to a US PO box.

Canadian border guards almost never ask him stupid questions - and I don't
believe he's ever been interrogated about dairy products in particular.

It might help that he:

1\. Has his role in typical and atypical border-control conversations
memorized.

2\. Looks like a cave man who hasn't shaved in a decade.

~~~
nickff
Canadians regularly go across the border to buy butter, cheese, and other
dairy products; much of it depends on what border crossing they use, what
province they are in, and how much they bring back. People from near
Vancouver, BC regularly cross over to Blaine, WA to buy cheese and gasoline
(both of which are much cheaper in WA than BC), and are rarely tariff-ed at
the border; there is even a 'dairy' (milk product store) in Blaine (which is a
small town).

------
robert_foss
The Investment protection and investor-state-tribunals[1] are rather unwelcome
and as bad as the ones in the TTIP.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Economic_and_Tra...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Economic_and_Trade_Agreement#Investment_protection_and_investor-
state-tribunals)

~~~
hencq
It's really unclear to me why TTIP and CETA have these. I can sort of see the
logic for TPP, because many of the countries involved there don't have a
reputation for having solid court systems. However, the US, Canada and the EU
all have mature legal systems, so a corporation can already sue a country as
is and get a fair trial.

~~~
jomamaxx
A corporation cannot sue a government for getting into a specific business
normally.

It's a tricky thing: company ABC invests $1B in some industry in some country
- and then that country comes along and invests $2B in a national company so
that national company can 'stay alive' ... and that money is used to undercut
the foreign competitor.

A lot of trade happens in traditionally protected sectors - so it's a hairy
thing when foreign entities come along.

Many countries - such as China - claim 'fair trade' (i.e. WTO) but
specifically use all sorts of games to protect industries, just not obvious
tactics like tariffs.

This issue is almost at the hart of 'free trade' because it's all about
opening traditionally protected sectors - and local actors often won't like
that and will lobby their governments to 'save them' in roundabout ways.

So it's a tricky thing.

If anything, this shows that the EU is basically inept when it comes to trade
deals. They will get nowhere with anyone because there will always be some
little state the size of a city that doesn't like something.

Imagine if all US states and major cities had to individually approve US trade
deals!

~~~
catdog
> If anything, this shows that the EU is basically inept when it comes to
> trade deals. They will get nowhere with anyone because there will always be
> some little state the size of a city that doesn't like something.

It's not only that small part of Belgium which suddenly happens to be against
this. There is huge opposition against CETA and TTIP in many European
countries but most governments either are on the pro side or are pressured
into accepting. Also what's tried here is putting CETA (at least partly) into
effect to create facts before the national parliaments have their chance to
decide, a very shady tactic.

~~~
jomamaxx
There is not that much opposition to these trade deals - the opposition is
usually from minority (i.e. political) or special interest group (i.e. an
industry that would be disrupted, like agriculture).

Case and point - it's the Walloon farmers that scuttled this deal it seems -
and agriculture is always the most challenging participant because of how
strongly subsidized they are, and how we give them some strategic interests
etc..

Most people are generally pro trade these days - even in Europe.

~~~
wott
> _There is not that much opposition to these trade deals - the opposition is
> usually from minority (i.e. political) or special interest group (i.e. an
> industry that would be disrupted, like agriculture)._

Are you kidding? A large majority is opposing. Only government leaders and EU
heads support this kind of deals.

------
drinchev
Super interested, why the author has not included specific reason or requests
coming from Wallonia on why they don't want the deal.

I'm pretty sure these requests are based on non-corporate-political principle
and that's why can't be fulfilled.

EDIT : Only thing I found is

    
    
        specifically on the symbolic issue of arbitration, which is politically extremely important
    

Sounds pretty vague to me.

~~~
tormeh
That struck me as odd. I thought arbitration was the most important issue, not
a symbolic one. Wasn't this trade deal (CETA) the back door for special-
courts-for-American-multinationals?

~~~
pavpanchekha
Arbitration is a minor issue from a trade agreements point of view. The courts
are not used that often, they usually side with states, and they're put in
place mostly because neither country wants to give up its sovereignty to be at
the mercy of the other country's courts. The natural solution is to make an
a-national court to handle international disputes.

Politically, the issue has become very polarized, because even allowing an
international court to settle disputes is seen as giving up sovereignty. Of
course, I would love it if everyone settled in the court of my choosing, but
it doesn't work that way. People also get concerned that these courts lack
democratic accountability. But of course all courts lack democratic
accountability...

I should add: here in the states, we worry that these courts are a backdoor
for Canadian-conglomerate-friendly courts. They can't be simultaneously
friendly to both the US and to Canada...

~~~
fmihaila
It's less about US vs. Canada (or country A vs. country B), and more about
multinationals vs. citizens.

~~~
zeveb
Of course, part of the problem is that citizens (and, more importantly, the
representatives those citizens elect) aren't always in the right, either.
Remember in the decolonialisation period how many countries nationalised
formerly-productive industries, to the great loss of both overseas investors
(immediately) and to their own citizens (over time, as the nationalised
industries became less and less productive).

~~~
fmihaila
Granted, but the countries negotiating this treaty already have functional
court systems to adjudicate who is wrong or right and to what degree. I
strongly disagree with supplanting existing conflict resolution mechanisms
that evolved over many years out of the choices of the local citizenry with an
opaque, supranational entity whose rules of engagement were negotiated in
secret, reflecting primarily the choices of large businesses.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
Good, neither side of the Atlantic needs another ISTS agreement.

------
Findeton
This is great, and I really mean it. We europeans managed somehow to stop not
only TTIP but also CETA. Congrats!

~~~
jomamaxx
That's great, you managed to keep yourself the lowest growth area in the
world, while the rest of the world is gaining wealth by leaps and bounds.

Everyone else is opening up, Europe is hiding in the closet.

Wallonian farmers will pay a much harder price in the long run when the
Flemish dump them.

~~~
wott
Europe is already the most open market. The way proponents of such treaties
try to sell them to us is that, thanks to them, European companies could go
fuck other markets as easily as companies from other continents can already
come and fuck our markets.

~~~
jomamaxx
Europe is not an open market for agriculture - and the Walloons are defending
their agriculture here.

Also, it's not as open a market as you would think.

If it was there would be massive banking, energy and telecoms consolidation,
and there hasn't been.

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sssparkkk
If I understand it correctly, CETA would have resulted in too much power for
(big) Canadian corporations. So it's a good thing the trade agreement hasn't
been ratified, correct?

~~~
antientropic
If you oppose CETA, you may like this, but the manner in which CETA is
defeated is bad news for the EU. It basically makes it impossible for the EU
to conclude trade deals if every (sub)national parliament has veto power (I
think there are about 35 of them now). At the same time, the power to make
free trade agreements cannot be returned to the member states because they're
in a common market / customs union.

In US terms, this would be like giving a county in Wisconsin veto power over
trade agreements made by the federal government.

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omouse
Sweet!

------
ap3
Read Wallonia and thought this was about some SeaLand clone - I checked the
URL expecting it to be the Onion

~~~
tormeh
It's complex... Belgium is divided into two major regions: Flandern and
Wallonia. Flandern speaks Dutch and Wallonia speaks French. Initially,
Wallonia didn't want to share its riches with the poor Flemish, wich meant a
strong separation between them, but now it's the other way around. Basically,
Belgium is two countries pretending to be one. It's one of many ways in which
Belgium is messed up politically.

Fun (sad) fact: Belgium has the most national politicians per capita in the
world.

Fun (sad) fact 2: Belgium holds the record for longest period without a
government, with Iraq in second place. 589 days.
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%9311_Belgian_govern...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%9311_Belgian_government_formation))

~~~
kwhitefoot
But Belgium survived quite well without a government because the civil service
kept on working. It seems that governments aren't as important as they like to
think; at least on a day to day basis.

~~~
tormeh
It's like not paying for software support and upgrades. The bugs won't be
fixed, but newer ones won't be introduced either.

