
Fujitsu harvests low-potassium lettuce grown in semiconductor plant - skreech
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/05/13/national/science-health/fujitsu-harvests-low-potassium-lettuce-grown-plant-clean-room
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ChuckMcM
I find it more interesting that they are growing this lettuce in a completely
artificial environment at scale. One step toward a closed loop habitat but at
a potentially larger scale than simple aquaponics installations. I'm still
waiting for a 'high rise' farm, basically a multi-story hydroponics
installation which can produce more food per surface acre than an existing
farm can. If you can master the pollination cycle and control pests through
environmental controls you have the basis for a sort of 'super-organic' type
of farm.

~~~
mikegreen
Growing more food per acre in an indoor hydroponic farm is a reality today.
The problem is your romaine from that hydro farm down the road is $3.99, and
from the traditional farm shipped across the country is $1.99. Lights are a
big part of the equation. Most plants need 10+ hours of sunlight a day, so
even if you put the plants on a rotisserie you still have to supplement with
artificial light ($$$). The amount of water and land you save is immense,
however, the water and land cost of putting a farm in an urban area counters
that.

Pollination is easy - bees. Even basement/garage growers will use bees to
pollinate. That said, you don't need bees in this example as you never want
lettuce (or any leafy green) to flower. You can control the flowering with
reduced temp and different light temperatures, too. In tomato/pepper/fruiting
plants, you'll need manual pollination or a beehive in your hydro-warehouse.

Re: super-organic - Most hydroponic growing is not organic. By nature of
adding nutrients (fertilizer, salts, ph adjustments) that replace what is
found in soil means hydroponics is traditionally not organic. There are
organic hydroponics going on (I am not aware of a large-scale one) and they
are NOT clean nor bug free, given the nature of making organic nutrients (they
smell like shit, really, as most are compost or something-rotting-based).

~~~
ChuckMcM
Do you have any links/references for a large scale hydroponics operation? This
was the last significant piece I read ([http://modernfarmer.com/2013/06/dirt-
free-farming-will-hydro...](http://modernfarmer.com/2013/06/dirt-free-farming-
will-hydroponics-finally-take-off/)) which was from last June that talked
primarily about the costs.

There are externalities that are increasing the cost of 'land' farming, among
them water availability, GMO concerns, pest control, and land/labor costs. At
some point robot harvested, hydroponically grown, vegetables will cap the cost
of producing food that way. And if the 'old fashioned' way will become more
expensive than that.

The key difference in cost between the two is, as you point out, the cost of
energy. Using 'free' solar power versus using grow lights, changes the
equation fairly dramatically. But one of the possible futures is that humans
will master the ability to harvest more abundant energy. In so doing, I
believe humans will have changed the economics of hydroponics dramatically,
and things like pest control and labor cost advantages will swing over to the
hydroponics side.

~~~
nkurz
These guys are large scale and down your way:
[http://www.viridisaquaponics.com/](http://www.viridisaquaponics.com/)

They have 8 acres of greenhouse in Watsonville, and a producing some really
impressive quantities of greens: more than 10 times per acre per year over
conventional. They are aquaponic, which means they are growing both vegetables
and fish (mostly sturgeon in their case). I have a friend with lots of
traditional ag experience who visited them recently, and he seemed close to
proclaiming they were the path to the future. I'll join you if you wrangle a
tour.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Nice! I've 'reached out' to them, to use the vernacular, to see if they are
open to informal tours. I'd love to see the control systems they use in a
place like that. And understand where their current challenges are.

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arbuge
Perhaps farmers could follow in the footsteps of semiconductor design
companies and go fabless if this trend establishes itself...

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mutagen
What a great way to extend the usefulness of an obsolete foundry!

I'm guessing that they're using hydroponics and carefully regulating the
mineral supply to achieve the desired potassium levels.

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MrBuddyCasino
Previously:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7749595](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7749595)

They grow that stuff for people with kidney problems, they have to follow a
diet that is low in potassium.

~~~
walshemj
Indeed we do - though my advice from the renal dieticians didn't mention
lettuce - will have to ask at my next checkup.

Ironically when I aske about the lo-salt versions of things like soy sauce she
commented no the crap they put in to replace salt is worse :-)

~~~
seandougall
I've been seeing nephrologists (some of the best in the country) for almost a
decade, and none of them has ever been remotely useful in planning out a diet.
Neither have the nutritionists they've sent me to. They all know lots about
_nutrition_ , but they don't know anything about _food_. They also get really
cagey/evasive when you try to ask for quantifiable guidelines -- like "tell me
how many milligrams of potassium to stay under per day".

And don't get me started on hospital food. (Short version: my "renal diet" at
Cedars Sinai was just half-portions of the regular diet -- including half a
banana, and a 4-oz container of orange juice. No joke.)

Watching serving sizes is the trick, because "suggested" serving sizes are
usually totally unrealistic. People will tell you to avoid spinach like the
plague because they're used to thinking of it as a crapton of leaves boiled
down to a few spoonfuls. But they might make you so paranoid that you avoid a
sandwich that has three leaves of fresh spinach on it, despite the fact that
there's more potassium in the bread! And conversely, they might not mention
potatoes, because the suggested serving size is so small, but you'll get a ton
of potassium if you eat a giant plate of french fries (potato skins even more
so).

Some things nobody told me:

1) A baked potato has twice as much potassium as a banana.

2) So does an avocado.

3) Some fancy grains, like quinoa, are reasonably high in potassium.

4) Foods claiming to be "a good source of potassium" aren't always the most
potassium-rich; that's just marketing, and tells you more about the calories
per unit potassium than it does about the potassium per serving.

5) The USDA nutritional database is one of the most useful things our
government has ever done:
[http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/search/list](http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/search/list)

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iwwr
This pushes home the idea that to have food you essentially need energy. If
electricity were abundant enough it could even make sense to grow vegetables
close to people in cities, perhaps in the same buildings.

~~~
jerf
It's almost all energy... food, electricity, clean water, a lot of recycling
options, even hydrocarbons could be synthesized from atmospheric carbon if you
have cheap enough energy. The only exception is atoms, and even for many of
those, if energy was cheap enough, we can just go get some more of the
desirable atoms, like the rare earths, from space. Civilization is ultimately
all about the energy.

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lifeformed
How does the potassium get reduced by being grown in a clean room?

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
Its in the article, but somewhat hidden:

"No pesticide is used and because the lettuce is produced in a clean room, it
stays fresh for about two weeks when stored at 10 degrees Celsius or lower."

They don't need to use pesticides because of the clean room, which in turn
makes for lower potassium content in the lettuce.

~~~
ars
> it stays fresh for about two weeks

That's hardly special. I've stored lettuce that I bought commercially for 4
weeks and it was fine. So that's 4 weeks plus however long it took to get to
me. (I bought too much by mistake.)

~~~
chc
Was that at 10°C or higher?

~~~
ars
No, it was lower. In a fridge.

~~~
chc
Then it sounds like better preservation would be expected. The article says it
lasts two weeks at 10°C. I have no idea how exceptional that is as I've never
knowingly stored lettuce at 10°C, but it probably doesn't last as long as
lettuce as refrigerator temperatures.

~~~
Someone
Http://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/33540/does-a-head-of-lettuce-
really-need-to-be-refrigerated gives a table showing that leaf lettuce at 10
degrees C evaporates only about 30% faster than leaf lettuce at 5 degrees C.
That difference isn't that large.

It also gives head lettuce at best two weeks at five degrees centigrade. So,
two weeks at 10 degrees seems a good result.

On the other hand, the article says _about_ two weeks; they might mean 'ten
days plus', and 'freshness' may be highly subjective (I bet there is a
standard for measuring lettuce freshness)

~~~
mikegreen
Humidity is a huge component of lettuce lifespan. You can't just plop lettuce
into your fridge near 0c as it is quite dry (hence why fridges have crispers
that maintain higher humidity for veggies, and are selectable to low humidity
for fruits).

Frankly, if you're not using a head of lettuce in 2 weeks something is wrong
with your eating and/or buying decision making :-)

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Zigurd
I recall there were a couple fabs built in Colorado that are not on
Wikipedia's page of currently operating fabs. Who wants to grow... lettuce?

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ghshephard
I read through the article a couple times - anybody figure out why they are
growing lettuce in a clean room?

~~~
jonsen
_No pesticide is used and because the lettuce is produced in a clean room, it
stays fresh for about two weeks when stored at 10 degrees Celsius or lower._

~~~
ghshephard
More detail here: [http://global.ofweek.com/news/Japan-s-chip-fabs-turn-to-
grow...](http://global.ofweek.com/news/Japan-s-chip-fabs-turn-to-growing-
lettuce-12257)

 _Fujitsu Semiconductor and Toshiba Corp have both started to grow greens and
believe the tightly-controlled conditions produce superior plants that can be
tuned in terms of trace elements and therefore for taste or for specialized
diets to meet health-care needs._

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TazeTSchnitzel
For those unaware, Yen has no subdivisions, so think of ¥1 as 1¢ or 1p, and
¥100 as $1/€1/£1.

~~~
leoedin
$1 maybe, but not £1. ¥100 is worth £0.58 - quite a big difference.

~~~
evan_
I think the GP just meant that ¥450-500 isn't as much as it might sound like

