

Ask HN: If you could start a start-up anywhere in the world - kintamanimatt

With the one exception of the US, where would you pick and why? Are there any non-US cultures that really support entrepreneurship, embrace failure as a stepping stone to success, and don't also try to hammer down the nails that stick out?
======
throwaway420
As bad as the US is becoming in many respects, the one thing its still got
over the world is that its the one place that respects and rewards
entrepreneurship to even the smallest degree.

The barriers to entry in the US are numerous and much more burdensome than
they should be in a free society....and are still a flat out cakewalk compared
to what the man with an idea faces in other countries.

------
cpursley
Hacker News, Quora, etc are supportive of entrepreneurship - that is your
support and mentorship network.

Incorporate in a low-tax low-regulation business-friendly jurisdiction like
Singapore, bank in stable country like Switzerland and live/work wherever you
like.

Consider the 5 flags-theory for web-based business:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_traveler>

~~~
subsystem
Nice in theory, hard in practice. Especially if you're doing a startup and not
a lifestyle or small business.

Edit: Ridiculous how people downvote. I've researched this area more than most
and the flags theory just doesn't fit most startups as the core concept is
having your tax residence and company in different countries. The only case I
know of where it did or could have worked is Skype.

~~~
joonix
Agreed, ideas like that sound great on paper but just don't translate to real
life in most instances.

And I encourage anyone dreaming about working abroad to go and try it for at
least a month before making a big commitment.

------
maxwin
Myanmar. This country just transitioned from a military government to a
democratic one and is opening up the market. Right now, they only have 5
million cell phone penetration. The government plans to have 80% mobile
penetration by 2015 which means more than 40 million people will be online.
Lots of low hanging fruits here. I am actually from Myanmar (been in US for 7
years) and I am going back tomorrow to start a company.

------
josscrowcroft
I run <https://openexchangerates.org> essentially "from the road", so this is
hugely relevant and I'm bookmarking it to read over once everyone's had a
chance to weigh in :)

At the moment, I'm based between the UK and Jersey (Channel Islands – I'm
resident for tax, which is nice), around Europe (recently Amsterdam, Berlin,
Lisbon, back to NL in a few weeks) and planning a move onto South America
later in the year. Previously it was Hong Kong, where the project began life.

From these, I got the best vibes in Berlin, and would love to spend more time
there soon.

London, where most of my business took shape and which I'd consider my
practical home, is fantastic for diversity of ideas, people and places. As of
now I plan to spend 3 months per year here (maximum allowed unless I want to
pay UK tax!) in the warmer months to really get into the city.

Still looking for _the place_ , though, the one where I settle in for a year
or two.

~~~
cpursley
openexchangerates looks useful for something I'm planning - bookmarked.

Curious, what's your technical stack? I'm researching ways to build a Restful
api to be consumed by web apps and mobile apps.

Quite nice to be a resident of Channel Islands! Seems that everyone likes
Berlin. Maybe checkout New Zealand?

~~~
josscrowcroft
Thanks! I have heard NZ is a top place to work from – it's the countryside
that appeals most to me, though it's a bit remote. How's the startup scene?

OXR is built out with PHP and (for a bunch of processes) nodeJS. PHP gets a
bad rap, but it's fastest for me to work with and hasn't presented any
problems so far.

~~~
cpursley
Cool, thanks. Guess I need to break down and learn about server-side
javascript...

I'm always impressed by the quality of the NZ govt. websites:
[http://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/who-to-
talk...](http://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/who-to-talk-
to/business-networks)

<http://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/living-in-nz> < I've packed my bags ; )

[http://www.quora.com/What-are-some-New-Zealand-technology-
st...](http://www.quora.com/What-are-some-New-Zealand-technology-startups-
that-are-doing-well-internationally)

\- Many good links here. It's not the valley, but impressive for a country of
4 mil.

------
wonjun
How about Toronto, Canada?

[http://blog.hypejar.com/post/42478443633/tech-alley-
torontos...](http://blog.hypejar.com/post/42478443633/tech-alley-torontos-
vibrant-startup-scene-and-why)

------
ucflibrary
We need to start a new country and call it Ycombinator. Nowhere in the world
supports entrepreneurship enough.

------
Achshar
Probably a developed country. Like UK. London sounds good, it not silicon
valley but its not bad either. There is already some startup culture there.
The operating cost would be a problem though. If i was short on money (ok
every startup is, except maybe like color) I would do it where i am right now,
in a small town in north of India. The city is not village, but it's not a
metropolitan either. The operating cost will be a lot lower than say, London
and I already know everyone here. The community, society and laws are all
local and familiar. So I think only place compelling enough to leave the
comfort of home turf is valley.

------
rdouble
The Netherlands is probably the easiest (only?) way for an entrepreneurial
American to get a foothold into Europe. There's a Dutch-American friendship
treaty which makes it easy to start a business there with a small amount of
money.

~~~
kintamanimatt
I'm actually British! The EU is my visa-free playground!

~~~
rdouble
Well then. You could go to Australia. It depends on what you're trying to do,
I guess.

------
vanwilder77
I m surprised since no one has mentioned about Tel Aviv, Israel.

Number of startups have arised recently, and also considering their
entrepreneurship spirit. It does seem to be a great place for doing a startup.

------
d0m
I can vouch for Montreal.. pretty sick entrepreneurship culture.

------
raquo
I'm betting on Canada now. Beats Russland hands down.

~~~
huhtenberg
Vancouver is a great place for sushi and it has a handful of good coffee
spots. But that's pretty much it as far as its relevance to the startups is
concerned.

Beats Russland hands down, true, but that's an easy feat.

~~~
michaelmior
Vancouver sure, but you should check out the startup scene in Montreal. Lots
of cool things going on.

------
johnmw
For bootstrapping, I chose India! I've been living in the beautiful Himalayas
and paying $500 a month to do so. That's a $3000 investment for 6 months
development time to test out your idea. The internet here isn't so crash hot,
but that is not a problem when you just need to do the odd Git check in. A
Hyperjuice battery is a essential investment, powercuts are all too common.

------
meerita
I'm in the process to make one here in Spain. It is hard, yes it is. I like it
because Barcelona is a great central point, full of foreigners who embrace
english and all kind of european cultures as well latin america. What I am
looking for? an american partner. It will be good for various reasons as I
think startups should be done.

~~~
cpursley
That's great. Have you seen where people in northern Spain are finding
abandoned villages and renovating them to be somewhat self-sufficient? That
would make a pretty cool startup hub. P.S. I see you are a UX/UI designer -
any social links (dribbble/behance/twitter, etc)? I'm sure there's Americans
on here (like me) or here on the lookout of that skill set.

~~~
meerita
@minid, <http://www.minid.net>. My portfolio is not on behance. There's no
need to move northern spain, in Barcelona we have plenty places with cheap
prices to setup an startup. I do preffer remote working and go relocation when
the first round is setup :).

------
uvdiv
There're many threads about this on HN. Here's one around an _Economist_
feature:

<http://www.economist.com/node/21559618>

(<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4589291>)

------
hect0r
UAE. Free market economy, law and order, easy air travel to anywhere in world
via Emirates/Etihad/Qantas, majority of world's people live within +/- four
hours of timezone, access to both low cost resources but also some highly
skilled resources, etc

~~~
geoka9
When people bring up places like this, it makes me wonder if they've
considered the implications of inadvertently breaking the laws that are based
on traditions/religion. Like being caught with a porn magazine in your bag or
even crossing a province border with a bottle of booze (even that can be
illegal there).

~~~
hect0r
Neither pornography or booze are prerequisites for startup success. If someone
has a predliction for either that they cannot surpress then I suppose this UAE
the place for them.

~~~
geoka9
Yeah, you just have to be extra careful, otherwise off with your head :)

------
devonbarrett
I think London's start up scene is becoming something interesting at the
moment.

------
schrodinger
Look into startup Chile. Sounded pretty interesting a few years back...

~~~
nirvana
It is. And one of the interesting things is, every 3-4 months they bring in
another 30 startups.

------
od2m
Orange County. There's a lot of talent out here that's trapped in horrible
corporate jobs. Even a lot of the startups are horrible-corporate startups.

I will do this someday.

------
saching90
India: If you are up for a challenge, where there might not be straight
forward solutions, but if you crack the plethora of problems present there,
its a dream come true.

~~~
geoka9
> Its a dream come true.

What are the pros besides low cost of living? Can you elaborate?

------
Duhck
Sydney. Amazing quality of life, beautiful, great weather, and an amazing
city.

Close to most of Asia, strong economy.

Definitely, Sydney.

------
RodEsp
Singapore, Norway or Denmark.

~~~
kintamanimatt
All three are interesting suggestions, but what makes them stand out to you?

~~~
RodEsp
Singapore has some of the world's strongest laws protecting investors, lenders
and borrowers. Setting up a company there only takes 4 days. It has very low
and easy to file taxes and pretty much everything they do they do it with a
"high-tech" view point.

Norway is just generally all around awesome. The only draw back is their high
taxes but they're ridiculously easy to file as well. They also protect their
investors, lenders and borrowers very well.

Denmark's economy makes it so starting up a business costs pretty much nothing
and registering it is almost as fast as Singapore. They also hire and fire
laws similar to those in the US so that you can pretty much hire and fire
people very easily with no hassle.

Also, I just love the Nordic culture and way of life which is a big factor for
me in picking Norway and Denmark.

------
geekdada
India,Africa,china,japan

~~~
kintamanimatt
These are unusual suggestions! What makes you suggest them, and specifically
what part of Africa?

~~~
ashaikh
In Africa, I would consider

Kenya: good internet speeds,

Ghana: booming local economy,

Nigeria: lots of entrepreneurial spirit,

Angola: 4G network

~~~
_djo_
What about South Africa?

Well-developed legal system

4G network and high speed internet

Existing support structures, especially for funding

And one of the most beautiful cities with plenty of sun & sand in Cape Town.

~~~
rza
I've never been to SA, but from what I've read, the high crime rate is a bit
deterring.

~~~
ashaikh
Crime is an issue but shouldn't be a complete deterrent. The political
environment is a bigger concern scares people off. The BEE/indiginization
issues are very real and should be considered.

With that said, I would live in Cape Town in a heartbeat, great food, culture,
people etc.

------
seivan
Singapore.

~~~
kintamanimatt
Singapore's come up a few times. What makes it an ideal start up location in
your view?

------
nirvana
Five years ago I quit working for other people and started working for myself.
At the same time, we decided to start traveling, to get a better idea of other
cultures for our products (which are internationalized) and to see if we found
a place we liked to stay.

First off, one thing you notice, once you get out of the USA, is how much of a
bubble the USA is in. The perspective given by US news sources, for instance,
is pretty narrow. Americans tend to think about the same things all the time
and have those perceptions reinforced. Just getting out there will broaden
your perspective, of the world, of the markets and of your customers.

There are other cultures that support entrepreneurship, and really, the idea
that the US is sort of a pinnacle of this is at the least outdated.

The thing to remember, though, is that these other cultures are different and
support it in different ways. Some better, some worse than the USA.

During our travels, we've "based our startup" in Venice Italy, Berlin Germany,
Amsterdam, The UK, Mexico, and most recently Chile.

All of these are quite viable as a place to stay while working on your
startup, though not all of them are good jurisdictions for your business to be
domiciled. We travel on tourist visas, though in recent year's we've focused
on getting year long visas.

Like others said about the PT / Five Flags strategy, jurisdictional arbitrage
is a good idea. One thing to be aware of is that the IRS is getting more and
more draconian every year and US government laws are making it harder and
harder for financial institutions to do business with americans. It's not that
the countries won't welcome you, it's that the US punishes them for it. (At
least as it comes to bank accounts.) This makes a foreign bank account a bit
of a prized possession for Americans.

Some notable places to consider: Amsterdam- There is a US-Dutch friendship
treaty which means that Americans who found a company in the netherlands get
residency so long as they keep a certain amount of assets in the company.

Panama- Recently the president of panama signed an executive order giving
anyone from "favored" nations (eg: ones panama has good relations with,
including the US and UK) the ability to get residency simply by setting up a
company in Panama and putting some money in the bank. This isn't just a
residency visa, this is permanent panamanian residency.

Chile- I'm sure you've heard of Startup Chile. Chile is a pro-business culture
(though also a bit pro-paperwork and things take a bit more time than they
should). The Chilean government will give you residency for living and working
in Chile, you just have to earn money in the country and pay taxes on it (So
you could go there as a freelancer and live.) After 2 years of doing this you
can apply for permanent residency that allows you to live there indefinitely.

Singapore- Has two programs, the Entrepreneur Pass and the Entre Pass for
employees of companies (it could be your own company) and people setting up
singaporean companies, giving you residency.

All these situations give you a reasonably straightforward path to residency.
All of them have more or less pro-business environments, though Amsterdam's
taxes are kind of extreme.

As for embracing failure, etc, this is really kind of incumbent on yourself.
IF you embrace your failure, great.

If you're looking to raise investor money, the bay area is the probably
unparalleled for this. I'm speaking more towards someone who wants to
bootstrap.

If you're a bootstrapper, you could do it almost anywhere.

~~~
geoka9
_It's not that the countries won't welcome you, it's that the US punishes them
for it. (At least as it comes to bank accounts.) This makes a foreign bank
account a bit of a prized possession for Americans._

I know that some countries (particularly some of the post-Soviet ones) make it
a criminal offense to have a foreign bank account, but I thought that for the
US it's just a question of sending in an extra IRS form. Or is it not?

~~~
cpursley
Yes, but the tax compliance is so complex now that many foreign financial
organizations don't find it worth the cost to do business with Americans due
to the paperwork. This is why the number of Americans relinquishing their
citizenship has skyrocketed over the past three years.

~~~
geoka9
You mean American tax regulations may have jurisdiction over foreign banks? I
don't understand.

~~~
cpursley
FAQ: [http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-
Em...](http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/FAQs-
Regarding-Report-of-Foreign-Bank-and-Financial-Accounts-\(FBAR\))

No, just jurisdiction over it's citizens. The USA is one of the only countries
that taxes and requires its oversees citizens to file a tax return. You can go
to jail for not reporting a foreign bank account - pretty insane.

~~~
geoka9
That's right, but why banks should worry about this? How does this regulation
increase the cost of having an American client?

~~~
rdouble
The potential penalties for noncompliance with the new tax laws can hugely
affect the banks' bottom lines.

[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000087239639044459270457806...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444592704578062570295543436.html)

~~~
geoka9
Wow. Forcing foreign jurisdictions to follow one's domestic regulations to
help enforce compliance of one's citizens is bizarre.

I'd say it even trumps the regulations that are largely post-Soviet legacy in
countries like Ukraine, for example.

~~~
cpursley
Yep, this is what desperate empires do when they know it's the end of the
line. The US has enacted a series of virtual Berlin walls. The only way to
escape is to expatriate and relinquish citizenship at an American embassy. And
to add insult to injury, the US Government takes 45% of all your assets over
$2.5 million if you take this route (not that I have that problem). And this
is already after-tax income, mind you. It's quite sad, really.

~~~
kintamanimatt
I don't think it's as high as 45%, or at least I can't find something to
corroborate that.

~~~
cpursley
Pretty close.

[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230387960457741...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303879604577410021186373802.html)

