
An Expat Has Time to Reflect, Now That the Party’s Over - wallflower
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2016/05/25/an-expat-has-time-to-reflect-now-that-the-partys-over/
======
holdenc
I'd say welcome to China, but let's be realistic. America offers plenty of
opportunities to get locked up for 24 hours for breaking selectively enforced
laws (protest anything lately?) and then perhaps even worse for resisting
arrest.

~~~
HairyGing3r
In Missouri you get fined for having mismatched blinds, and not having money
to pay that fine will get you into court/ private prison.

~~~
kaybe
Is that enforced at all? Regularly?

~~~
Cacti
No

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keerthiko
Am I the only one bothered by an American writer using the term "expat" to
describe himself and other foreigners in a country, when the standard term
used for the counterpart people in America is "immigrant" or "migrant worker"?
American dialogue has been building a language of discrimination that I find
extremely insulting as a non-US national in America, which spawns the whole
anti-"immigrant" sentiment dominant in America.

~~~
mc32
Expat is typically someone who is sent to work for a company's foreign
offices/overseas offices and who will return to their home country after their
"tour" is over. I.e. their residency depends on their company's sponsorship
--the company you work for is doing all the paperwork and paying all
incidental costs for you.

An immigrant is someone who moves overseas or to a foreign country on their
own accord without the help of a company. You're getting visas and residency
on your own.

So for example, a Kiwi working on the production lines in Toyota city is
likely an immigrant. A Kiwi manager in finance in Toyoda city is likely an ex-
pat. It's also likely these two don't run in the same circles.

~~~
dalke
Your definition is not correct, or at least it's incomplete.

There are many retirees who call themselves an "expat", such as those at
[http://money.cnn.com/gallery/retirement/2014/10/14/expat-
ret...](http://money.cnn.com/gallery/retirement/2014/10/14/expat-
retirement/index.html) .

Arthur C. Clarke was a British expat in Sri Lanka. He was not sent there by a
company.

Here's the owner of a company which hires Mexican agricultural workers for 10
months of the year - [http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-guest-
worker-20130331-dt...](http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-guest-
worker-20130331-dto-htmlstory.html) :

> He spends $1,000 per worker for visas, consulate fees and transportation to
> North Carolina. He's required to pay for their housing, and he estimates he
> has spent more than $80,000 building a house on his property, plus $36,000
> to buy a mobile home and $5,000 a year to rent an apartment for the 48
> workers he employs during the growing season. The government makes him pay
> them $9.68 an hour, which is about one-third higher than the minimum wage in
> the state, and he spends thousands of dollars on workers' compensation
> insurance.

Oddly, people rarely call those Mexican's "ex-pats." The only difference from
your definition is that they work outside, and not in an office, no?

If so, isn't that the sort of socioeconomic class discrimination that
keerthiko pointed out?

~~~
mc32
There are definitely some social strata connotations to it. Migrant workers,
who often have visas pre-arranged for them and are given housing, are
typically called migrant workers because they do "rounds". Conversely the
Mexican workers at the Mexican consulate would be Mexican ex-pats and so would
Cemex workers sent by the company to their US offices.

As I mentioned above, ex-pats and immigrants from country A living and working
in country B typically will not be found in the same social circles --be they
American or British or Brazilian or Chinese.

~~~
dalke
And like keerthiko, I am disturbed by the easy acceptance of this distinction.

The example I mentioned was not a migrant worker doing "rounds". It was under
an H-2A agricultural visa to work for a single company in North Carolina. Is
that specific Mexican, Rodolfo Benito Coy Garcia, an ex-pat? It sounds like
your answer is "no, because he isn't in the right social circles."

I say, if someone's on a 5-year rotation in London, call them a guest worker.
That's what they are. Why do you think we should maintain the class
distinction in calling people from the more economically advantaged social
circles to be "expats", while those from others are "guest workers" or
"migrant workers" or other less socially accepted terms?

I'll again point out that your definition excludes all the other people who
call themselves "expats", who live more or less permanently in another
country, and are self-employed or retired. But who just happen to be from a
rich country, and seemingly don't want to be called an "immigrant".

~~~
mc32
People self-label all the time. Retirees are one of them. I wouldn't normally
call them ex-pats, but if that's what they want to call themselves, I don't
care. Same for migrant workers. They can call themselves ex-pats too, if they
like. That said, poor immigrants will rarely mix with the less poor immigrants
from the same country, regardless of nationality --for the most part.

To me, and not everyone has to agree, colloquially an ex-pat is someone sent
to work abroad by their company where the company pays incidentals, COLA, and
does the visa legwork.

~~~
dalke
Yes, This is all about self-labeling as I don't think there are any laws which
cover what "ex-pat" means. At that level I'm pointing out that your definition
is only a partial fit to the existing use.

The underlying question I have is, _why_ do some people want to self-label as
"ex-pat"? Why not use "guest worker" or "immigrant"?

Personally, I think the term ex-pat became in vogue post-WWI when rich
Americans and (poor) artists and writers were part of the European social
scene, like Gertude Stein's "Lost Generation". The modern self-employed
authors and artists who live overseas still use that term.

After WWII, when US companies started to have European offices, and when it
was cheaper and easier for US citizens to work overseas, they re-used the term
"expat", in part for the romantic ties to the stories they read while growing
up. Since business makes a lot more money than writing, that new term has come
to dominate.

And these American guest workers, like British guest workers in China, India,
etc., considered themselves better than other guest workers, so preferred the
term "expat" over "guest worker." Then, to make it easy to tell the two apart,
insist that the term "expat" is the correct one to use for office workers. And
it just happens that guest workers in multinational business offices are
mostly drawn from white people in rich countries.

I think US and British retirees living overseas call themselves "expats" for
similar reasons; to consider themselves apart and above immigrants from poorer
countries.

I believe your observations are consistent with my belief that the distinction
is based on class terms. If so, by using that term don't you support classism?
Of course, as the beneficiary of classism your answer might well be "yes".

~~~
mc32
I don't support classicism --and occasionally recoil from it. But I also see
the same people decrying classism decry "ugly [Americans]" \--which is an
interesting juxta. That said, I don't feel I need to proscribe usage. People
can call themselves what they like and may label as they choose. This attitude
may further classism, but to me it's a better alternative than telling people
who they are or should think they are.

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hughperkins
Im not sure i understand why this is a big deal. As the guy said, it was
designed to send a message. As far as drugs, youd have to be insane to do
drugs in china. The laws on drugs are really harsh. As for the reason,
presumably the organizer hadnt paid the right bribes.

~~~
ctvo
The issue is laws in China are arbitrarily enforced, making it easier to abuse
power. Casual reading of this felt like the organizers were getting too
successful and failed to pay the proper people. This was a message to them,
not the partygoers. Next time pay us and we won't harass your guests.

~~~
jseliger
The US is obviously somewhat better at non-arbitrary enforcement than China,
but _Three Felonies a Day_ ought to be mandatory reading for Americans:
[http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-
Innocent/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-
Innocent/dp/1594035229/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1458663056&sr=8-1&keywords=three+felonies+a+day).
Virtually everyone is guilty of something if someone wants to look hard
enough.

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tormeh
Reminds me of Berlin parties in S-bahn stations or beneath bridges, usually
around Warschauer. Those cannot possibly be legal, but nobody bothers to stop
them.

~~~
sneak
The police here are remarkably tolerant of most victimless crimes, thankfully.

~~~
roel_v
This sort of raves violates all sorts of environmental and health and safety
codes. It only takes one fire with a couple dead to make them all go away.
Look, I used to like raves when I was younger, but it's silly to claim that
anybody should be allowed to organize anything anywhere without regard for the
neighbors, safety of visitors or work load of emergency services.

~~~
mercer
> it's silly to claim that anybody should be allowed to organize anything
> anywhere without regard for the neighbors, safety of visitors or work load
> of emergency services.

I don't think anyone is arguing in favor of that. My experience in Berlin has
been that a lot more is allowed than in other cities I've experienced, but
within reasonable boundaries. And I think that's a wonderful thing. Here in
Holland I feel like the state is an overprotective parent. We shouldn't obsess
over safety at the expense of _living_.

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Paul_S
What is ambiguous about drugs being illegal in almost every country on the
planet (with a handful of exceptions)? Just because the police doesn't catch
all the murderers doesn't make murder legal. That's crazy logic.

~~~
pyre
The ambiguous part is the "X is illegal, but everyone openly does X all of the
time, and the police don't seem to care... until they do" way of doing things.
This applies to everything from the "unlicensed gathering" to the drug use to
the (seemingly) inconsistent punishment for the drug use.

~~~
richardwhiuk
Probably different drugs used - not necessarily inconsistent or arbitrary.

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compil3r
The underground party scene in China (especially in Shenzhen) is getting
bigger and bigger. The party isn't over and raids like that are not something
that party goers are not used to.

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robocat
An expat in British English generally means a British or similar professional
person who is _temporarily_ (estar) working in a country, but expects to
return home (maybe their whole working life until retirement). It implies you
identify yourself with your birth country.

An immigrant is someone who has _permanently_ (ser) moved - who now defines
their identity as being from their new county.

That said, there is a nice article on The Guardian (a socialist UK newspaper)
which agrees with the racial bias:
[https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/global-
de...](https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/global-development-
professionals-network/2015/mar/13/white-people-expats-immigrants-migration)

An expat in American English can now mean someone who has moved to a country
e.g. I heard a retired couple call their mostly American community "expats" in
Mexico.

It definitely has overtones of a white professional job. The meaning is
obviously in the process of changing, and has country specific divergences
(home country, and away country).

It is a loaded term of group identity, so yes, it will exclude some people
with bias.

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contingencies
Local police often only act on request from Beijing, in the spirit of: "we
have a new national crackdown on <subject X>; go arrest some people". We have
a saying here 山高皇帝远 ("the mountains are high and the emperor is far").

~~~
RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u
OT: I'd learned the idiom as 天高皇帝遠; didn't know there are variations.

------
golergka
Why did the author assumed that the party was illegal? The fact that police
raided it doesn't mean that it as illegal; it just means that police decided
to treat it like illegal.

Overall, this description feels like a very gentle slap on the wrist, compared
to China's reputation; they probably got such a lax treatment — even given
chairs to sit — exactly because all the expats. Nobody even got beaten by the
police; I feel that a Chinese-only party would be treated much rougher.

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hkon
I don't get the point of this article. Chinas has police and they do a good
job, is that it?

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cloudjacker
So the 90s are just reaching Shenzhen?

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eecc
The bribe wasn't enough

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partycoder
And how is this relevant in any way?

~~~
chvid
If you just read the headline and not the article, then maybe the article is
about the really bad recession that is going on in China right now (wellknown
to all readers of HN). And how the expats caught there must "reflect" now that
the party's over ...

~~~
partycoder
Can you explain how I can infer that by reading the article alone? It was
about people being detained at an illegal party.

------
Numberwang
Interesting read. Good to see the police making sure laws are followed.

~~~
xiaoma
The article clearly talked of how they aren't.

Though motorbike taxis are illegal, they are ubiquitous except for temporary
crackdowns. Though the raves were against the rules, they were advertised
publicly for four years before any action was taken and there will be more
publicly advertised raves that police ignore next year.

~~~
Numberwang
I don't really understand your point. Not every speeder in the US are caught.
Would you say the police doing temporary crackdowns is not a good thing?

We should celebrate the police here for doing a good job trying to uphold law
and order. Perhaps if they had more resources they could go after the other
cases of lawbreaking mentioned, not as part of the main story, in the article.

~~~
mahranch
> I don't really understand your point.

The point is the inconsistent enforcement of laws. And you can be assured that
if someone was wealthy enough, the laws don't apply to them. I think that's
what the author was talking about when he said 25 people who had tested
positive for drugs were let go and not held. They were probably connected
somehow, or paid a bribe. China is an incredibly corrupt country where bribes
are standard practice. (Source: Bribes the Unspoken Rule in China:
[http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardlevick/2015/01/21/new-
dat...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardlevick/2015/01/21/new-data-bribery-
is-often-an-unspoken-rule-in-china/) and Corruption Index:
[https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results](https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results)
)

Moreover, their inconsistent enforcement of the law is why they have such a
shitty environmental record/problem. China has laws on the books regarding
pollution and the environment comparable to that of the U.S believe it or not.
But they _do not enforce any of them_. They don't have the equivalent of the
EPA who's sole job it is to go after offenders. Some inspector shows up
wanting to see your carbon scrubbers on your exhaust towers? "Oh, I must have
forgot your birthday, here's a wad of cash. See you next year." I witnessed
something shockingly similar to that happen on a plant tour in 2013. I was
dumbfounded and speechless. The plant manager thought it was a big joke.

I have nearly 2 dozen unique stamps in my passport over the last 15 years.
China is the only stamp I will never have a duplicate of. I've been to some
pretty bad areas and countries and China's wasn't "I fear for my safety bad",
well, if I'm being honest it was a little, but I like that. It's exciting. No,
it was "Holy crap this culture is complete backwards and toxic." People care
very little about their fellow man/neighbor and I was disgusted by it. It
seemed like everyone was trying to pull a scam on everyone else. I felt slimy
watching it happen.

~~~
DelaneyM
> ...25 people who had tested positive for drugs were let go and not held.
> They were probably connected somehow, or paid a bribe.

There are plenty of perfectly rational reasons why one might test positive for
drugs but not be held.

In the US, at least, your levels must be high enough that they are unambiguous
when factoring in margin of measurement error, but any amount is enough to get
a warrant or have just cause to search your person/vehicle.

Alternatively, I take a prescription medication which causes me to test
positive (hilariously high actually) on some drug tests. I carry my
prescription and doctor's note on a prescription pad whenever I travel, and
it's not _that_ uncommon.

Jumping straight to corruption is unfairly stereotyping China, which, though
it may have a problem, has many more honest cops/prosecutors than dirty ones.

~~~
mahranch
> Jumping straight to corruption is unfairly stereotyping China, which, though
> it may have a problem, has many more honest cops/prosecutors than dirty
> ones.

When your country ranks 100th on the world's corruption index, it's not
"unfairly stereotyping". It's a fact backed up scientific data and hard
evidence. China _IS_ corrupt. No amount of mental gymnastics is going to
reason away all the hard evidence. I experienced it first hand, and I'm not
some amateur traveler. Again, I've been traveling for the better part of 2
decades.

One of the first steps in correcting any problem is admitting you have one.
China, Chinese nationalists and Chinese expats who jump to defend the country
on internet message boards like this one and reddit have an impossibly hard
time with that first step. It's going to keep China languishing in mediocrity
for some time to come.

