
The Surface Book 2 is everything the MacBook Pro should be - ChrisLTD
https://char.gd/blog/2018/the-surface-book-2-is-everything-the-macbook-pro-should-be-and-then-some
======
makecheck
It’s 2018 and I _still_ see people walking around with Windows laptop lids
open because they presumably have no confidence in Windows’ ability to
sensibly preserve state after closing the lid. Software matters, and how it
integrates with hardware.

And I keep waiting for them to fix just the _basics_ in Windows 10. Not
utterly losing both the sizes _and_ positions of _all_ windows just because
the laptop was undocked. Not failing to recognize the external display upon
docking, despite the display working a few minutes earlier. Not completely
failing to find files and apps based on how I typed them (“A” brings up “abc”
but typing “ab” makes “abc” go away!?). Such a long list.

~~~
andrei_says_
Not spying on me and not transmitting unknown to me personal information to
unknown parties would be a killer feature.

I treat any windows machine as if it has a keylogger and submits all my
activity to all major governments (maybe only one today and “all” in a few
years when my data gets sold, shared or stolen).

This is a serious issue for me.

~~~
NicoJuicy
This issue comes again and again, I'm getting really tired of this "issue".
After all this time this is the top comment, while discussing a really good
convertible?

He mentions that people don't trust Windows for savely restoring their
session, but if i'm not mistaking, it's Ubuntu ( i think) that had such a bug
for a VERY long time (
[https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2321399](https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2321399)
). I have never heard such problems on Windows...

It's measuring activities and performance yes, it's not stealing your
information. Ubuntu did it too and even integrated Amazon in the search field.

You can even see what it sends: [https://www.howtogeek.com/348699/how-to-see-
what-data-window...](https://www.howtogeek.com/348699/how-to-see-what-data-
windows-10-is-sending-to-microsoft/)

PS. Probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, but please respond with
comments and not with (too much) downvotes.

PS 2. I also use Ubuntu a lot, which is why i can compare it too Windows on
experience. Can't compare to other distro's, if i didn't use it. Both have
their pro's / cons.

~~~
hactually
> Probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, but please respond with
> comments and not with (too much) downvotes.

Probably due to the fact that you're using whataboutism[1] as a defence rather
than tackling the fact that Windows does log user activity and report it.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism)

~~~
NicoJuicy
I mentioned what Windows does and talked about something else i can compare.

My relevant point was : It's measuring activities and performance yes, it's
not stealing your information as the user activity is also anonymous.

I don't see you making a relevant comment though.

~~~
ionised
> My relevant point was : It's measuring activities and performance yes, it's
> not stealing your information as the user activity is also anonymous.

Firstly, how do you know it is truly anonymous? And is this anonymisation
being done on the users machine, or one Microsoft's servers? If the latter, MS
has access to unanonymised data.

Secondly, cross-referenced with other 'anonymised' data sets it is quite
possible to de-anonymise people. I'm not convinced there is any such thing as
a truly anonymous data set anymore, not when it comes to data collected from a
users device.

~~~
NicoJuicy
They are pretty specific without hiding the fact what they collect here :
[https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10-feedback-
diag...](https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10-feedback-diagnostics-
and-privacy)

A governement can automate it to follow it back to the user, but a corporation
can't.

They are the only ones that show it this straight forward, can you find a page
like that on one of the other big tech companies? ( Apple, Google, Amazon)

TL;DR; You can follow it back to a specific device, but you can't follow it
back to "who is the user". Which seems to be a valid business decision,
considering the complex matter they are in ( the biggest variety of devices
and users).

You can also check it for yourselve:
[https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/24/16927056/microsoft-
window...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/24/16927056/microsoft-
windows-10-data-collection-viewer-privacy)

Telemetry can also be disabled

This seems to be the worst, if a part of a document contains your personal
data, when you are working on it and it crashes.

Full data includes all Basic and Enhanced data, and also turns on advanced
diagnostic features that collect additional data from your device, such as
system files or memory snapshots, which may unintentionally include parts of a
document you were working on when a problem occurred. This information helps
us further troubleshoot and fix problems. If an error report contains personal
data, we won't use that information to identify, contact, or target
advertising to you. This is the recommended option for the best Windows
experience and the most effective troubleshooting.

------
sinatra
Such articles always give too much importance to the hardware (which is
somewhat important, no doubt) and not enough importance to the software.

Many people are looking for quality alternatives to Macbooks, Mac Mini, etc
(myself included). Mac Mini hasn’t been updated for 4-5 years. So, I started
setting up a Windows desktop as a Mac Mini replacement. But when it came to
finding all the alternatives to the OS X software I was using, and when
Windows started showing me notifications about “try Edge,” “give us your
valuable feedback,” etc, I went back.

If only Ubuntu could have native MS Office (needed for docs from lawyers),
Sketch / Adobe products (needed for working with our designers), etc!

~~~
owenwil
Hey! Writer here. I discuss the software at length in here, but as I point out
in the piece I've already covered why WSL and Bash work very well at length,
so didn't want to muddy the water too much:

1\. How to use Bash on Windows to retain your previous setup:
[https://char.gd/blog/2017/how-to-set-up-the-perfect-
modern-d...](https://char.gd/blog/2017/how-to-set-up-the-perfect-modern-dev-
environment-on-windows)

2\. Why WSL/Bash is good enough these days: [https://medium.com/charged-
tech/why-i-left-mac-for-windows-a...](https://medium.com/charged-tech/why-i-
left-mac-for-windows-apple-has-given-up-b48c0eaac64)

~~~
singularity2001
I tried Bash on Windows and it was _absolutely not good enough_. Not yet.

~~~
fgonzag
What problems did you find it with it?

I've been using it for the past 6 months after dual booting and running VMs
for a long time and found I haven't found a reason to boot into my VM yet.

~~~
stefan_
IO performance is atrocious. git status on a Linux tree takes a 10s of
seconds.

~~~
ivan_gammel
Git works perfectly in PS, why would you need to run it in WSL?

~~~
squeaky-clean
Not the original commenter, but I do everything else in bash, and zero things
in PS. Why would I want to remember which shell runs which program best?

~~~
ivan_gammel
That makes sense, however if you are Windows user, bash is not an obvious
choice for primary shell there.

~~~
sigzero
I don't think that is correct. If you install WSL you are not a typical
Windows user.

~~~
ivan_gammel
I didn't mention "typical" Windows user. WSL will always be a second-class
citizen in Windows, so if you are power user trying to improve your
performance, what's the point in choosing a second-class solution after
choosing this OS? Learning one more shell, just like learning one more
programming language, has some benefits.

~~~
squeaky-clean
Because I like Windows for myself but my company uses Linux based servers and
bash as our shell. It's not just about ME switching to PowerShell, but getting
30 other people to do it too. Not gonna happen.

------
throwawayqdhd
The Surface Book also runs something I never want to deal with again: Windows
10.

I can't deal with a software that constantly gets in the way of my work. I
gave Windows a lot of tries, but the latest edition was the last straw for me.
Never going back.

~~~
vancan1ty
I feel that Windows 10 has an improved file explorer and file copying dialogs
over Windows 7. In every other way I feel that I still prefer Windows 7 --
system stability, lack of apparent bugs, much more coherent settings
functionality, lack of resource-consuming microsoft spyware (cortana), better
built-in themes, messages from system are less annoying/"cutesy", ability to
fully control updates, lighter and better built-in apps.

I think 7 still remains the peak of Windows and I agree with you that Windows
10 presents a lot of motivation to stick with OSS :)

~~~
zouhair
Forced telemetry and forced updates at random times are both deal breakers for
a lot of people.

------
tombert
Has anyone managed to get Linux booted on this thing and working well? I've
been debating purchasing one, but I am afraid that I'll be stuck with Windows,
which, for what I work on, makes hacking pretty difficult.

EDIT: Just as a note, I know about WSL (I use it at work), but I would greatly
prefer to have Linux working on root. I have a lot of custom systemd setups,
and I've become somewhat dependent on XMonad.

~~~
dpedu
I've been using Linux on my Surfacebook 2 13" since about January. Most of the
hardware features work decently (including touchscreen), but overall it's
still not great despite the excellent work put into a modified kernel for it,
here [1].

IMO, the most notable items missing full support are:

\- the battery[2][3], charge or capacity status

\- "performance base" dedicated GPUs

1: [https://github.com/jakeday/linux-
surface](https://github.com/jakeday/linux-surface)

2: [https://github.com/jakeday/linux-
surface/issues/28](https://github.com/jakeday/linux-surface/issues/28)

3:
[https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198145](https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198145)

~~~
JBiserkov
I haven't tried it myself, but over at /r/SurfaceLinux it says Surface Book 2
"dGPU: Working (both NVidia 1050 & NVidia 1060 models) - Using the NVidia
driver, bumblebee can be used to change which GPU is being used"

[https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/curren...](https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/current_state_of_surfaceseries_devices/)

Ctrl+F("1050")

In fairness, Surface book 1 "dGPU: Not working – Not detected on any bus
currently exposed to the Linux kernel, due to this, little to no research has
been done"

------
tomxor
I hate MS, but this looks like a genuinely nice piece of hardware... I wonder
if it can run anything other than Windows without being half broken, then I
might be interested.

[Edit]

Looks like everyone is thinking the same thing :P Now who can we pay to invest
a month hacking away at figuring out how to get all the bits of hardware
working in Linux?

Following the link various others have posted here [1], it looks like the
surface book 2 support isn't completely terrible, much better than i expected,
but not amazing either... Broken things and things that require more effort
are:

    
    
        - Sleep S3 broken
        - Video is dual nVidia GPU, requires bumblebee
        - TouchPad and Pen broken, work with a custom Linux kernel
        - PCI camera(s) not working
    

The touchpad is probably gona be the most annoying one.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/curren...](https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/current_state_of_surfaceseries_devices/)

~~~
arto
> Now who can we pay to invest a month hacking away at figuring out how to get
> all the bits of hardware working in Linux?

There is donation information at:

[https://github.com/jakeday/linux-surface](https://github.com/jakeday/linux-
surface)

------
schappim
I have to second this. We are an all Mac company, but service customers on
Windows. For testing purposes, our company purchased a Surface Laptop (not a
Surface Book), and I was blown away by the quality coming out of Microsoft.

As I use the Surface Laptop, I wish Apple would steal the design and apply it
to a new MacBook Air.

The screen is excellent, and coming from the Mac world it is surprisingly how
good having a touch screen is.

Battery life is great and smashes my 15” 2016 MacBook Pro. It reminds me of
the good old days of MacBook Air (all day) battery life.

The keyboard has travel, but I had to swap around the “Windows Key” and “Ctl
key” to stop going mad (I have 19 years of macOS shortcut muscle memory).

Microsoft reminds us that you can still have a USB-A port and SD Card Slot in
a nice form factor. It is possible to escape the #DongleLife .

My only gripes are 1) Windows still pales in comparison to OS X 2) the power
supply is proprietary (I really like USB-C chargers).

~~~
thirdsun
I guess most people, even in HN circles, agree that Microsoft as well as other
PC manufacturers like Dell (XPS) or Lenovo (Thinkpad) can built beautiful,
high quality hardware, but as you already state in your last sentence, that's
not the problem at all. Windows is. Or the lack of macOS, for those of us that
can't use Linux fulltime.

------
dizzystar
I guess as someone looking for a MacBook alternative within a small limit,
doing PHP and design, this sounds great.

I recently moved from Linux to MacBook after 7(?) years of Linux an
exploratory foray into Windows 10. I simply don't trust the Windows to get out
of my way.

A simple problem in older Windows was trying to profile for speed. After going
through the very slow startup, you gotta keep an eye on what's going to
randomly start running. It's a pain, and not having to deal with this is a
huge win for Linux and MacOS. In Windows, I turn off an item in startup and
what do you know, it's still starting up, not because the machine started, but
because I opened up a separate program, because clearly, a program I never use
is now convenient because Windows says so.

I got this feeling like I don't have any ownership of my computer and OS.
Sure, Windows looks nice and is usable, but it feels like I'm renting my
operating system, and honestly, MacOS sort of feels the same. It's an odd
feeling.

Windows 10 seems "good enough" for most people's common use-cases. There
really isn't a good reason to spend 2x the money on MacOS over a Windows
computer for 95% of users, and even many developers are just fine using
Windows.

It was an interesting read, and I'm glad the author is enjoying the new
computer.

~~~
PeCaN
>I got this feeling like I don't have any ownership of my computer and OS.
Sure, Windows looks nice and is usable, but it feels like I'm renting my
operating system, and honestly, MacOS sort of feels the same. It's an odd
feeling.

I hadn't thought about it this way, but I feel like this too. It's weird. I
don't know why. I think it's the presence of stuff I didn't add, the random
updates, Microsoft Store ads, etc. I kind of want to go back to Windows 7 just
so that I can feel like I really own my computer again.

------
WesleyLivesay
I would love to see more laptop manufacturers use the 3:2 aspect ratio,
especially on screens smaller than 15".

~~~
whitepoplar
If Apple made a 12-13" laptop with a 3:2, non-glossy display, an all-day
battery, and a non-broken keyboard, I'd probably pay double for it.

~~~
bhauer
There needs to be a renaissance of non-glossy (matte) screens, for the sake of
the eyesight of us all.

------
ChuckMcM
I have a "good" Macbook pro (2015 Retina MBP) and a Surface Book and prefer
the Surface Book for many of the same reasons the author does. (because I have
poor impulse control I also have an iPad pro :-).

For development, the Surface with the Dock is just killer for me. On the road
the iPad has the longest battery life and I use it in a consumption only mode
but if I'm doing development I'll bring the Surface as well.

From a personal perspective it just feels like Microsoft is spending more of
their attention to developers than Apple is over the last few years and their
tools reflect that.

------
noir_lord
I looked at the surface book but ended up going with the T470P
(i7-7700HQ/2560x1440) because it allowed me to put 32GB of RAM in it, 16Gb
just isn't enough for my workflow (If I have a Win10 instance running in a VM
for VS2017, a couple of vagrant instances and intellij open then I can eat
16GB in no time).

Also I've been a Linux user for development for >10 years and a mixed
linux/windows user for another 10 or so before that, simply not giving up
Linux at this point.

However pretty it was (and it was) 16Gb just isn't enough for _me_.

~~~
sridca
I went with P71, running NixOS on it. The perfect development machine (with a
5k monitor to boot); way better than what MacOS or Windows can achieve.

~~~
noir_lord
I looked at the P series, nice machines will probably look at one of those
next but I think I'll get some life out the T470P yet.

~~~
acangiano
I have a P51, and I just bought a Pixelbook because the P51 is a great machine
but not really a laptop. See here: [https://programmingzen.com/google-
pixelbook-review/](https://programmingzen.com/google-pixelbook-review/)

~~~
noir_lord
That was what drew me to the T470P absurdly fast little machine, 200+ dpi
screen and upgradeable ram and storage.

I like the 14” as a step between 13 and 15 as well.

~~~
acangiano
Yes, at the time I should have bought the X1 Carbon, T4xx series, or just the
15" MacBook Pro.

------
timdorr
Cached:
[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OzE2qb...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OzE2qbUBetMJ:https://char.gd/blog/2018/the-
surface-book-2-is-everything-the-macbook-pro-should-be-and-then-
some+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

------
madushan92
I don’t really understand the value of a touch screen on a laptop. Specially
for a Software Developer. It is easier and quicker to move your hand (while
typing) to the touch pad rather than to the display. I think TouchBar (which
is underrated) makes sense because in that case you don’t need to move your
hand up, it just is there along with the keyboard. Plus I really don’t like
those huge touch-optimised buttons on Windows. A laptop is meant to be used
with a mouse pointer which is much much more precise than a finger, hence
allowing macOS to display smaller buttons maximising screen realestate.

~~~
zeroxfe
It's fantastic for pretty much any kind of design work. Even you're a software
developer building UIs and web interfaces and such. Also great for kids (who
generally have less developed motor skills.)

~~~
smt88
What kind of design work? I don't understand how something laggier than a
pencil/pen and less precise than a mouse can be useful. I actually hated doing
design work because of the hours of incredibly precise mouse movements
required.

~~~
cma
It has to be a big help when developing a phone or tablet app.

------
ballenf
Anyone else have experience in this aspect:

> I’ve written about web development on Windows 10 before, but even since a
> year ago it’s come such a long way. The Bash on Windows environment is now
> so performant and well supported that you won’t even know the difference if
> you move from a MacBook, and Microsoft continues to improve it at an
> impressive clip.

> Unless you’re using Xcode, _your workflow will almost certainly move from
> macOS to Windows as a non-event:_ it’s that good now, and I spend most of my
> time living in the Bash environment without any problems — even with
> complicated situations like Symlinks inside Bash now actually working fully.

[emphasis mine] Good for Microsoft if so, but I have to wonder if it's one of
those situations where everything works well until you hit a brick wall and
have to re-setup everything on Mac/Linux to stay productive.

This comment bothered me:

> Generally, the sticking point for designers is Sketch, which to date refuses
> to build a Windows client — a ridiculous, anti-user move that I hope
> eventually will cause people to reconsider it in their workflows.

Especially from a developer, that seems like a very uncharitable, demanding
interpretation. Is there more to the story? Maybe the author being a web
developer influences that view or he just loves Sketch and is bitter to have
left it behind.

------
cncrnd
People don't consider reliability as much as they should when they buy a
device. The Surface line has been known for poor reliability, with nearly a
quarter of customers being affected for some products.

The time spent investigating an issue, arranging a repair, sending a device
in, setting up on a backup device, and communicating with repairmen only to
get an unfixed product back approaches a couple of days of lost productivity.
Rules out the Surface Book 2 in my eyes.

~~~
partiallypro
I've had 5 Surface devices and have never had any major issues. The biggest
issue I ever had with one was dropping it and shattering its screen. I didn't
have coverage on it, but Microsoft replaced it all for about $300.

~~~
cncrnd
Good for you. However, consumer reports gave a two-year breakage rate of 25%
for Surface products. Given a 75% everything-is-ok rate, that gives you around
a reasonable 25% chance (.75^5) that everything is ok with 5 devices,
illustrating why anecdotes are not helpful in decision making.

~~~
partiallypro
Consumer Reports also didn't use actual return/replacement rates with Surface
devices, and included in their breakage rate things that are easily
attributable to a Windows Update.

~~~
s73v3r_
I would too, as Microsoft is the one running Windows Update.

------
bcheung
I tried to switch from Mac back to PC and got the original Surface Book a few
years ago. I really liked the detachable screen but otherwise I didn't find it
very useable. The trackpad didn't register clicks a lot of the time and I had
to press very hard when dragging so it didn't disengage. It was a bit too
flimsy when typing on your lap. Also, all the weight is in the screen so
touching the screen and using the keyboard means that you have to grab the
back of the screen when pressing so you don't push the screen.

I wasn't happy with the performance either being that I needed something that
could process RAW photos and do video editing. For general web browsing and
coding I think it could work well.

I recently got the Dell XPS 15" and am working on converting my programming
and photography workflows to Windows. So far everything seems to be going
smoothly. Windows Subsystem for Linux really makes a difference and most stuff
I've tried works flawlessly without change.

------
jrs95
It really isn't everything the MacBook Pro should be. It's got an underpowered
CPU due to thermal/power constraints of most of the computer being in a tablet
form factor, and you're still limited at 16GB of RAM which really blows for a
$3000 laptop in the age of Electron.

------
robbiet480
The thing that is consistently keeping me tied to the Mac is iMessage (and
Xcode, but that can be more easily solved). Yes, I have my iPhone, but writing
on Messages for Mac is just so much easier because full keyboard.

------
dylrich
I am also wondering how Linux runs on this. A Windows-only machine is out of
the question for me, but the hardware looks pretty solid. I'll consider buying
one if I can get Fedora to play well with it.

~~~
Casseres
It looks like it can run Linux pretty decently (I might be tempted to give it
a try):

[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Microsoft_Surface_Book_...](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Microsoft_Surface_Book_2)

[https://old.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/curren...](https://old.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/current_state_of_surfaceseries_devices/)

------
plandis
Is there good driver support for the touchpad and other hardware in Linux?

~~~
timdorr
There's a good breakdown of all Surface hardware in this thread:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/curren...](https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/current_state_of_surfaceseries_devices/)

------
funwie
I think it will make more sense to compare hardwares at same level. 300$ or
1000$ PC to 2000$ Mac seems odd, isn’t it?

Buy a PC with same price tag as a Mac. Use and then feedback.

------
cma
Just don't put your hand on it:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/7of68m/surface_pro...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/7of68m/surface_pro_intermittent_pen_inaccuracy_when_hand/)

(I still think it is better than MacBook. Just really annoying that they got
this wrong)

~~~
thinkythought
This has been screwed up since they moved away from the original, much MUCH
nicer wacom digitizers(which were also more sensitive with the pen). I still
haven't heard a legit explanation besides this other than "they're expensive"

~~~
mkl
One reason is that N-Trig works accurately right to the edge of the screen,
but Wacom loses quite a lot of precision near the edge and pressure can behave
differently there too. That's why Wacom's own Intuos and Cintiq devices have
enormous bevels - the pen sensor continues out further.

------
sigzero
Almost every single review on YouTube for the Surface Book 2 says the same
thing..."Way too expensive for what you get."

~~~
chaostheory
Yeah I would have a hard time justifying it because there are plenty of decent
alternatives. With Mac OS, you have no choice. Even with all of its bugs, it's
just really hard to get away from MacOS. This is switching from Windows years
ago.

------
NicoJuicy
Or, how the one with the biggest market share became the underdog.

Other example, Surface Studio: [https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/surface/devices/surface-stud...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/surface/devices/surface-studio/overview)

------
jason_slack
I have tried both the Surface Book 1 and Surface Book 2 in order to switch
from a MacBook Pro due to hardware and software quality issues.

In both SB1 and SB2 Microsoft had to swap out each version 3 times before they
asked me to just return it and perhaps look for another model. Why? It would
shutdown randomly, I could not enable developer mode, Windows update would
just throw errors and Microsoft could not solve it. Office would reinstall
itself every 2-3 reboots. All issues were reproduced at a Microsoft Retail
store location.

I do feel Microsoft is headed in the right direction, but they are not quite
there yet. This being said Microsoft had regained my respect over the last few
years after losing it in the late 90's, early 2000's.

------
mixmastamyk
Re: the screen

Drives me crazy there are no more 16:9 tablets where I watch Netflix, but am
forced to use 16:9 monitors on my PC where I need more vertical space to get
work done.

Industry has it bass-ackwards.

------
egypturnash
I gave the Surface Pro 2 a serious shot last year. Ultimately the deal-killers
were (1) Windows, especially Windows’ lack of an equivalent to OSX’s colored
Finder tags, which I use to keep track of the status of the hundreds of files
involved in drawing comics, and (2) Illustrator had a ton of input lag on the
stylus no matter what settings I played with.

It came real close though. And if Apple put out something in this form factor
I would be putting my order in within a day.

------
bartq
From blogpost: this flipped laptop screen standing next to bigger monitor
looks very interesting. If it's close enough to mess up using your fingers,
that potentially could be very interesting setup for work. But software seems
to be a limiting factor; I'm not aware of apps on screen (a) that would react
to changes happening on other screen (b) or even other app window.

------
neya
I am a die hard Mac fan. I upgraded from Windows and never looked back.
Recently, I _thought_ Windows might have improved over the years and decided
to give it a shot with my girlfriend's Windows 10 laptop and it was because
she wanted me to setup a new user account for her.

And you wouldn't believe me if I told you that it's near impossible to create
a normal user account without a Microsoft Live account along with it. You need
to google for it and find some specific workflow to make it happen.

I felt so outraged and I totally lost all trust and confidence in MS. It felt
really a cheap and scammy way to get more people into their walled gardens.
It's a shame because I really wanted to give Windows a chance.

Now imagine, if Apple had forced you to use an Apple ID to sign into your Mac.
How outraged you'd feel?

Having said that, I think the Surface series have a far superior design than
any of my Macs. I sometimes feel jealous when I see these guys in coffeeshops
playing with it by directly interacting with its screen and the sleek keyboard
that comes with it.

Ever since then, I've been seriously investigating if there's a way to get Mac
OS run on a Surface almost flawlessly. That'd be the perfect laptop for me.

~~~
com2kid
> And you wouldn't believe me if I told you that it's near impossible to
> create a normal user account without a Microsoft Live account along with it.
> You need to google for it and find some specific workflow to make it happen.

The button is labeled "Add a user without a Microsoft account", I found it
rather quickly, never having looked for it. The flow certainly is focused on
MS account creation though. I remember in Windows 8, having to look up on
Google how to link my MS account! (For me, I appreciate the change, I have
enough grandfathered in OneDrive storage that I'm a happy camper.)

All of my other computing devices require an account. PCs are trying to hold
out. Linux obviously does not, and Apple requires an account login to access a
lot of the services that come with the OS.

------
jimmcslim
I wish this had Thunderbolt 3, which it doesn’t have (contrary to what the
article says I think).

Hopefully the Surface Book 3 will!

------
ricardobeat
I feel like I read the same article three times. To match Ars you need more
content, not just being prolific.

------
AdeptusAquinas
It wasn't until reading this that I learnt I could charge my Book with its USB
C port. Mind blown.

------
rbanffy
Unfortunately, it comes installed with Windows.

edit: of course it runs Windows. It also comes pre-installed with it.

~~~
jdietrich
FTA:

 _Most people that I showed the Surface to were impressed by what they saw,
but almost always came back to the same thing: it doesn’t run macOS.

I’m increasingly frustrated by this because it’s almost always a
misunderstanding of how far Windows 10 has come, and how compatible the
workflow now is regardless of what you might do for a job. I suspect most
people haven't touched Windows since years ago and it's time for a serious
second look if so.

I’ve written about web development on Windows 10 before, but even since a year
ago it’s come such a long way. The Bash on Windows environment is now so
performant and well supported that you won’t even know the difference if you
move from a MacBook, and Microsoft continues to improve it at an impressive
clip.

Unless you’re using Xcode, your workflow will almost certainly move from macOS
to Windows as a non-event: it’s that good now, and I spend most of my time
living in the Bash environment without any problems — even with complicated
situations like Symlinks inside Bash now actually working fully._

~~~
yesimahuman
I've tried to adopt the alternative bash systems on Windows, and they are
nowhere close to terminal options on OS X (or Linux!). It still boggles my
mind why we have to stay within the limits of the cmd.exe UI, with the lack of
window resizing, easy copy/paste, and proper font rendering. Then, on top of
that, Windows will never have a proper unix-like filesystem. I just can't go
back to that.

The only thing windows has going for it when it comes to development is
performance. My windows desktop _screams_ compared to my mac, but is relegated
to gaming.

~~~
addicted
I don’t use cmd.exe for anything. It’s Powershell all the way.

Powershell, while different from the BASH way of doing things, is a really
nice commandline tool.

~~~
yesimahuman
Doesn't powershell still have the same UI limitations of cmd.exe? I'm not
talking about the actual shell itself, but the application the shell runs in.

~~~
pdpi
It does, yeah. But powershell inside conemu is a fairly decent experience.

------
mbell
The Surface Book 2 has a 15W CPU in it, which is the power class of the CPU in
a Macbook Air. Unless you have a workload that is highly GPU dependent but
makes little use of the CPU, the SB2 and MBP aren't even in the same
performance class.

------
ianwalter
It's a nice piece of hardware in general but give me a break with that title.

------
j45
If MacOS ran smoothly and received all updates on the Surface Pro or Surface
Book, I would likely be running one of those devices.

Hackintoshes are progressing - not sure if it can be production grade from a
seamless patching perspective.

------
sebringj
What has stuck me to mac is ONLY this...I have to have XCode and Android
Studio in one machine. That's it. How do I run XCode in windows or Linux even?
I don't want to have to have a mac so I'm all ears.

~~~
ChrisLTD
You’re stuck forever, unless you want to try to run XCode in a virtual
machine.

~~~
sebringj
bloating bloatware dev situation ouch

------
twodayslate
I only reason I have a Mac is for Xcode. This can't be replaced on Windows.

~~~
0xcafecafe
Its funny you mention that as Xcode is the reason I can't develop on my
macbook. I prefer visual studio. To each their own I guess.

~~~
lostgame
It's not about preference, it's about necessity...some of us need native
iOS/MacOS development, it's part of our job.

And for better or mostly for worse in the present moment, a MacBook Pro is
really the only way to have xCode and Android Studio on one device in a decent
manner.

------
dxxvi
If you want to save more screen estate, switch to Linux. For example, openbox
(a window manager) can hide the top panel of any window based on the class,
group class, title, .... properties of that window.

------
nayuki
I want to like this laptop, but the lack of a Right Ctrl key is a dealbreaker
for me. There are many keyboard shortcuts that I need to press on the right
side, like Ctrl+I or Ctrl+L, using only one hand.

------
paulie_a
Can I install real Ubuntu on either? Then for that reason I am out on both.

------
benologist
I think Apple should open source macOS so it can be decoupled from their
hardware, or just start cloning it in open source against their wishes as was
done to Windows.

Otherwise it's time we let macOS go because Apple plans for it to run iOS apps
and to use their iOS processors in their computers, so we and our tools and
software are approaching obsolete and when iOS devices can compile apps we
will start being redundant too.

Even if they released new hardware for us tomorrow it would be coupled with
iOS processors and how many generations of having both processors can we
really expect?

Until server ARM processors are compatible with iOS processors we are
eventually going to lose parity with all the server software that made
MacBooks good developer platforms too.

~~~
bwbw223
It’s not to directly run iOS apps, but to make it easy to adapt them.

We also don’t have any evidence of a change in processors.

Please stop presenting speculation as facts.

~~~
benologist
You're right we have no evidence of them working on iOS-based computers. But
obviously anything future-looking is speculation. The only two Macs they have
upgraded in years were upgraded to include iOS processors that already
inherited some macOS responsibilities. Everything else is very stagnant for so
long the blogger sought a successor, despite Apple having great options from
Intel and AMD and infinite resources.

------
alanfranzoni
If you can stand Windows, there're tons of good laptops around. If you can
live with Linux, there're some few decent laptops. If you want MacOS... you're
a bit screwed, today.

------
cpeth
Most posts here are going to mention MacOS as the key feature that will always
keep them on Mac hardware. That is understandable, people are comfortable with
it.

I currently use it for work and am not impressed(just as I was last time in
2014), having always used Linux and sometimes Windows. The only reason I
haven't bootcamped Ubuntu is that all of our conference rooms are set up to
display via AirPlay(proprietary). I don't want to be the one always hunting
for the HDMI dongle (yes it's a mid-2015 MacBook Pro that still has that).

-Why is there a global menu bar? With multiple monitors we have 10+ application visible at one time. Why do I need to select one first to then use a menu action instead of just clicking on it like GNOME / Windows

-Why are there command/option keys instead of ctrl/alt? This seems like pointless we-are-different-and-special stuff

-Why does clicking X (close on an application) just minimize it instead of killing it? But yet minimizing it just puts it in a separate area of the dock?

-Why does trying to snap windows to the sides of the monitor throw it into full-screen mode and create a new workspace that then fucks with my ability to overlap windows or alt-tab?

-Why does spotlight (CMD + Space) only find one option? Why isn't it part of launchpad?

-brew sucks compared to apt and snap but it is better than choclatey

-you still need a VM to run docker

-you need non-apple hardware to have a back button on the mouse (I loathe the magic mouse 2)

For all the devotion it gets for being a modern *NIX development platform,
it's solid but not overwhelmingly great.

Give Linux and Win10 a try, I am finding them equal these days.

Hardware wise, a laptop without a Thunderbolt port these days is just a deal-
breaker. There is no excuse for Surface Book 2 to not have one. It's the
reason I chose the Dell XPS 15 2-in-1 over it (and saved $400 in doing so).

I was a fan of Surface Book 1 and bought one, it served me well. MS is doing
good stuff.

------
onyva
It’s the software, stupid. Nobody wants to go back to windows. Ever.

------
ggm
Apple don't want you to, but don't actually impede you installing native
Linux.

I believe the surface is locked hardware but I'd be delighted to be told I'm
wrong.

~~~
kart23
No, they're equally bad in this respect. The newest MBP does not work well
with linux (wifi, audio, etc), and this surface book seems like it also has a
few problems with linux. If I could actually use linux on the newest MBP, I
would've bought it in a heartbeat.

~~~
ggm
I did them a misservice:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/6eau79/curren...](https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/6eau79/current_state_of_surfaces/)

------
mikecx
For me it's still software, the hardware is definitely solid. My experience is
from when Windows 10 first came out so maybe it's all fixed now. The process
to upgrade involved waiting for the bubble to pop-up in the bottom right. It
didn't after a week so I had to search out the command line incantation to
make it show up. Once I got it to show up, it did nothing until the 5th or 6th
restart. Once it started to install it took 3 days, running constantly, on a
brand new Surface Book. After that I remained unsold on Windows yet again.

------
maxxxxx
How is the trackpad? I have played with the original Surface Book and there it
was still far away from my MacBook.

~~~
schappim
The trackpad is actually better. Apple actually broke their perfect trackpad
from the 2016 MBP onwards.

I didn’t realise how perfect the Mac’s trackpad previously was until
“upgrading” to the 15” MBP with the oversized trackpad that has spurious input
whilst typing!

------
intellix
I guess he got slashdotted

~~~
owenwil
We're up! It was a weird PHP bug... sorry :)

------
consto
I am soon to be in the market and this is tempting me.

------
zerr
Windows 7 support?

~~~
krylon
Strictly speaking, I have no idea.

But considering that MS refuses to supply updates to Windows 7 running on
current CPUs, I am not very optimistic.

------
camhart
Can't use dual 4k monitors with it...

~~~
freeone3000
You have to chain displayport or use the dock, but yes, they do.

------
itomato
Alcantara and touchscreen? Pass.

~~~
jdmichal
Only Surface Laptop has alcantara... This is about the Surface Book 2.

------
txsh
Doesn’t run MacOS. That’s all I need to know.

------
mikeymop
This does NOT look easy to repair.

I'll keep waiting for the new 2012 MBP.

------
bluedino
Even less ports. Not upgradeable. Not serviceable. Author wants UNIX tools but
Linux doesn't even work correctly with the device yet.

~~~
GordonS
Plenty of Unix tools work in WSL (and plenty worked through Cygwin before
that).

~~~
lghh
Plenty is not enough, unfortunately.

------
soyiuz
Serious question: was this post paid for by MS in any way? It certainly reads
like a promoted piece and the author is in marketing.

The preponderance of superlatives is particularly concerning.

------
SeanLuke
> The Surface Book 2 is everything the MacBook Pro should be

... does this mean it runs OS X? Because for me that's all that matters.
Otherwise it's _nothing_ the MacBook Pro should be.

~~~
dpkonofa
Same. Windows is such a steaming pile of shit for me that I sometimes forget
it's not normal for people to reformat and reinstall their OS every 6 months
_pre-emptively_.

I do a ton of development on new hardware and, most recently, various VR
platforms and the number of driver conflicts and issues I have on Windows is
staggering. For the brief fart of time that MacOS was supported, I never had
issues. Now, I can't update my Oculus software without it causing the Vive to
stop working completely. Why one piece of software can completely eff a
separate piece of hardware is beyond me but it's not only possible but also
frequent with Windows.

------
some_account
Really excellent hardware but I'm sad its using Windows because its horrible
and it angers me when I use it.

If Apple could make a device like this...it would easily be a top seller even
with their Apple tax.

------
collinf
> I don't want a serious gaming monstrosity, I just desired something that can
> do the job well, had great build quality and could run the Unix-based tools
> I need to use to get through the day while offering reasonable battery life.
> It's a tall order, but should be feasible.

Proceeds to not touch upon a single way the Surface 2 is UNIX-y in any sort of
way? I know the WSL is there but the biggest stop for me using anything other
than a MBP is that I wouldn't be able to develop without a *nix environment.

~~~
alexland
He talks more about WSL near the end:

> The Bash on Windows environment is now so performant and well supported that
> you won’t even know the difference if you move from a MacBook, and Microsoft
> continues to improve it at an impressive clip.

> Unless you’re using Xcode, your workflow will almost certainly move from
> macOS to Windows as a non-event: it’s that good now, and I spend most of my
> time living in the Bash environment without any problems — even with
> complicated situations like Symlinks inside Bash now actually working fully.

~~~
schappim
> you won’t even know the difference if you move from a MacBook

Just a heads up: IO has some serious bottle necks in WSL that makes it feel
quite slow in comparison to my various Macs. M$ is headed in the right
direction though!

------
Karunamon
The Surface Book 2 sadly can only run an operating system that invades my
privacy, and when it's not doing that, treats me as hostile, and when it's not
doing that, is a general UI disaster and pain in the ass to work with.

Hardware is becoming increasingly generic and commoditized. It's the absolute
least interesting part of the buying decision: does it have the right numbers?

More interesting: Can it run the OS I already have and read the data I've
spent the better part of a decade working with and collecting without
requiring me to spend a bunch of time re-learning how to do basic tasks that
are committed deep to muscle memory? How much new software am I going to have
to buy? Will that time and money spent result in a productivity improvement
substantial enough to offset the opportunity cost?

If not, I'm not going to bother. I can't be alone here. Straight comparisons
across platforms like the headline does here are never completely legitimate.

------
itomato
Windows 10 behaves so much like Windows 95 I'm embarrassed for Microsoft.

Anything that seems remotely intuitive coming from a Mac means I'm thrust back
into that antiquated mode of thinking and working. Be warned, these anecdotes
come from experiences with company-issued equipment.

Need to work with cross-platform files or bootstrap a development environment?
Still running back to Cygwin.

Need some sort of ability to edit ASCII text files? Good luck with that.

Working with an .xz or .gz tarball? Take this malware-infested junk and muddle
through.

Click on the minuscule little icon to expose ten more minuscule icons which
are absolutely essential to get anything done.

One thing I can say is improved; up-arrow command history. That's about all I
can see. Oh, and the old nit about pressing 'Ctrl-Alt-Del' to log in.

