
Facebook's Bus Drivers Seek Union - rtpg
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/06/business/facebooks-bus-drivers-seek-union.html
======
GuiA
I have a really hard time understanding the union's position. The problem is
stated by the CEO of the contracting company very clearly:

 _> Jeff Leonoudakis, president of Facebook’s shuttle bus contractor, Loop
Transportation, said many Facebook drivers earned $18 to $20 an hour.

> “We believe that we take really good care of our drivers,” Mr. Leonoudakis
> said. “They’re the heart of our company. Without them, we can’t provide
> service to our customers.”

> He also said Loop provided a generous medical and dental insurance plan.

> “We pay overtime, which most of our competitors do not pay,” Mr. Leonoudakis
> added, noting that the company provided vacations, sick leave and holiday
> pay.

> “In keeping with the fact that we provide this high level of wages and
> benefits to our drivers, I don’t think the union is necessary in this case,”
> he said.

> Mr. Leonoudakis acknowledged that the split shifts were a strain for
> drivers.

> “The split shift is a necessity — that’s what our customers are asking for,”
> he said. “We are trying to make the conditions as pleasant and comfortable
> as we can.”

> He added, “I don’t have an answer for” the split-shift problem. “I don’t
> think anyone in the industry does.”_

The drivers are well compensated, have benefits, and are treated well. The
only problem is that the job requires a split shift, but not much can be done
about that. The company's already having a hard time being competitive with
contracts - putting 2 drivers per shift would probably make the company non-
competitive for contracts.

The job has a clear downside, but that's just how it is and the company tries
to make it as comfortable for the employees as it can.

If it's really a problem for the employees, isn't that where the free labor
market would allow them to quit their job and look for something more in tune
with their preferences?

I'm looking forward to replies to my comment because I'm having a hard time
seeing the magical cure here. There's a problem (transporting employees
requires drivers), a company emerges to solve it, and compensates employees at
a value more or less determined by what the job is worth ($20 an hour, which
is roughly between a job at McDonald's making burgers ($10/hour) and a job as
a middle class white collar worker ($30/hour)).

Realistically, what can be done better here in the short term? What is the
union going to bring to this economic conundrum?

~~~
rtpg
I think the crux of the issue is that $20 an hour is not enough to live
anywhere near SF in those areas. Combined with the split shift, this means
that basically 16 hours a day of these people's lives are booked.

So even if these people were willing to work 2 fulltime jobs to cover this
issue (an idea so absurd anywhere outside of America we should be ashamed),
they can't because of the hours.

1 solution is to hire two sets of drivers (allowing these people to find
another part- or full-time job to compensate). Another is to pay them more for
the split shift issue (not to mention the large quality of life impact from
the schedule).

This is _not_ an ideal job for anybody.

~~~
DannyBee
"I think the crux of the issue is that $20 an hour is not enough to live
anywhere near SF in those areas. Combined with the split shift, this means
that basically 16 hours a day of these people's lives are booked."

So don't live there!

It's not like there isn't a huge country here.

If people go take jobs elsewhere, the price people are willing to pay to get
people to take _these_ jobs _here_ will go up.

If not there is a glut of people willing to take _these_ jobs at almost any
price, in which case, honestly, you can't solve this problem (and it is likely
we will, in the not too distant future, soon have too many people for all
possible jobs that people are needed for)

This idea that people have a magical right to simultaneously live _wherever_
they want, _and_ get paid enough to live comfortably there is somewhat
ridiculous and impossible to fulfill. There will always be places that are
more expensive due to demand. It's not like this is the first time in history
(even of the US!) this has ever happened. What happens is people go instead
where they can afford to live. Then either pay goes up to attract people to
the high demand area, or it becomes less in demand.

If i could not afford to live in the bay area with what the bay area was
willing to pay me, i would move somewhere cheaper.

There are plenty of jobs in the US that are ready for the taking, pay
reasonable rates, and are in places that are affordable. People often just
consider themselves too good to take them.

~~~
teh_klev
So basically you're saying that if a family has lived in an area for many
years (possibly several generations), and are gradually being priced out of
the ability to exist and work, they should just move on somewhere else,
breaking long established ties with friends and family?

That's pretty harsh and selfish outlook about the lives and welfare of working
families who will never see anywhere near the six figure salaries being earned
by FB, Google et al engineers.

~~~
anon1385
It's a common refrain from right wing commentators. It has always seemed to me
a very anti-human position though. When people move they lose the support
network of their friends and family and community. That network can be crucial
to them in all sorts of ways - helping to find a job if they become
unemployed, helping out in times of financial hardship, helping them during
periods of illness or depression. In many ways it's just about the worst thing
a person can do for their economic future.

~~~
DannyBee
"It's a common refrain from right wing commentators."

FWIW: I'm as left wing as they come. Really.

I think you mistake my opinion that "folks should move to where they can
afford to live" with a lack of empathy. I actually have very strong empathy
for folks in this kind of situation (having had family members in it myself!)

I just don't see a viable alternative here that actually works long term.

Also

"When people move they lose the support network of their friends and family
and community."

This is complete and utter bullshit in most cases. It's simply rhetoric with
no support. Especially in this day and age of easily available instant
communication and social media.

(For reference: I have had severely depressed people in my family who i have
supported through their depression, so i actually have some experience in this
area. )

"In many ways it's just about the worst thing a person can do for their
economic future."

Really? You should probably tell this to all the people who don't end up
living near their parents after college ...

Seriously though, you do not offer any evidence of this assertion at all, and
all available data i've seen points to the opposite. My ex-wife was the first
of her many-generation family to leave the area they lived in. First to go to
college. Family pushed her very hard to relocate back to the same area after
college. But if she had, _that_ would have been the worst thing she could have
done for economic future. Instead she moved somewhere with a better job market
for her skill set, and saved money.

Meanwhile, other folks in her family who stayed behind where they couldn't
afford to, and where good-paying jobs are hard to get, are now having serious
trouble making ends meet. Family can only help you so much here.

------
DannyBee
"One big problem, in the Teamsters’ view, is that the bus companies are
constantly seeking to underbid one another for contracts. "

Yeah, if only they didn't compete with each other ...

"“That hampers their ability to pay these workers decently,” Mr. Aloise said,
“and that keeps pulling the common denominator down.”"

I'm not even sure what he's suggesting?

~~~
peterjancelis
Like so many unions, they want to limit the supply side (laborers) so the
wages can go up. Or force a minimum wage so employers hand pick the better
skilled employees anyway.

So of course no union will say it out loud but the economic effect of their
policy is to shut out the less skilled workers to artificially benefit the
more skilled workers.

~~~
rtpg
>So of course no union will say it out loud but the economic effect of their
policy is to shut out the less skilled workers to artificially benefit the
more skilled workers.

Or to raise prices for FB and co. The lever works both ways.

------
sschueller
Instead of spending all this money on private buses why not spend it on
getting the local public transportation into better shape and give something
back to the community?

Am I the only one who find it quite sick that these large firms use private
buses when they could be getting together to fix/improve what is broken?

~~~
badusername
You underestimate the amount of capital needed to even make a small dent in
public transportation. I'm sure facebook's spend is not even a miniscule
amount of what any public transportation project would take.

It's quite amazing that these companies provide commuter buses, and that's
probably the best way every private company can help the community. Each one
of those buses probably takes hundreds of cars off the road, easing traffic
and reducing pollution. I don't understand why the media is obsessed with
viewing private buses as a symbol of privilege, and not as a practical
solution to bay area's commute problem.

~~~
sschueller
How much more capital is really needed to operate these busses at a fixed
schedule with specific stops and allow anyone to use them for a fee? Uber for
public transport if you will.

~~~
hoka
It's not that simple. There are gigantic forces involved: government officials
at several levels, unions, etc.

~~~
sschueller
If anyone can do it, it would be these companies which have more capital than
god. :)

~~~
TeMPOraL
And here we circle back to the original argument - them doing private buses is
more cost effective way to give back to the society than wasting boatloads of
money on trying to integrate with public transport infrastructure.

------
yty
Such ignorance. It was unions that brought us 40 hour work weeks and safety to
the workplace. They can either bargain with any unionization that might
happen, or they can fix the conditions that are causing the drivers to want to
go to collective bargaining in the first place. Maybe Facebook could start
their own service and pay the drivers better, they can certainly afford it.

------
facebook111
Such ignorance. It was unions that brought us 40 hour work weeks and safety to
the workplace. They can either bargain with any unionization that might
happen, or they can fix the conditions that are causing the drivers to want to
go to collective bargaining in the first place. Maybe Facebook could start
their own service and pay the drivers better, they can certainly afford it.

------
morgante
They really shouldn't take such a combative stance. Comparing Facebook
employees to nobility is both ludicrious and oppositional. They're not making
insane wages—indeed, based on the Bay cost of living even 6-figure engineer
salaries are barely middle class.

Let's stop pretending that people who can't even afford to buy a house are
entitled, elite, or nobility.

~~~
Totoradio
If 6-figure salary engineers are barely middle class, what are $20/hour bus
drivers?

~~~
morgante
Lower class. If you look at housing prices in the Bay area, that's basically
minimum wage.

~~~
Alupis
It's not FB's job to ensure bus drivers can buy houses in the main city.

If the bus drivers are so stubborn to live in the bay, there is plenty of very
affordable living spaces (homes, condo's, and the like) all right outside the
main city in the suburbs.

Irregardless, let's not all weaponize against a company simply because said
company has money and bus drivers don't. $20 an hour is pretty darn good for a
relatively low-skilled job.

~~~
Totoradio
Their work schedule (6:10-11:10 AM and 5:15-9:45 PM) makes it very hard to
live too far away from their workplace.

~~~
Alupis
And? You somehow think that justifies what? $50 an hour? when is enough,
enough? Loo, my father works for the city municipal public transit system (has
now for 20 years), but these are bus drivers - it is a low skilled job with a
fast revolving door.

~~~
DanBC
"Low skilled"? That seems an odd, risky, attitude to have about someone
piloting twenty tons of steel and a full load of passengers through a city.

~~~
beagle3
It is a statement of fact.

"Low skilled" is, in this case, in comparison to the population, not some
objective absolute. In CA, "driving literacy", which is almost sufficient for
piloting said steel contraption, is comparable to real literacy, and I suspect
is way above numeracy. Would you consider being able to read or do arithmetics
anything other than "low skilled"?

------
TYPE_FASTER
Just starting a union won't get rid of swing shifts. Some public
transportation drivers are in a union and work swing shifts.

------
Rapzid
If everyone on the bus could drive the bus.. Facebook could buy a few buses
and not need drivers.

~~~
QuantumChaos
I rode the corporate buses, and underpaid or not, the drivers are highly
professional. I wouldn't trust my life to a random fellow employee over a
trained and experienced driver.

------
0838-0421-7736
presiden kecil imron fe'a

------
mooneater
With computer driven cars nearly here, being a professional driver might not
be a long term career for much more time.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Careful, soon the technology might exist to let professional software
developers/engineers work from anywhere. Just think of the low cost locales
you'll have the pleasure of competing against.

~~~
lotsofmangos
I don't think we are much more than a decade off a lot of code being written
by computer from natural language requests given by management.

~~~
dragonwriter
Optimists have been saying that since at least the late 1980s. But,
realistically, we're probably more like a decade away from significant,
widespread acceptance influence of a new programming approach like that of
bloom [1] possibly combined with a visual dev environment (LightTable's Eve
[2], from the recent HN discussion, seems like it may be the initial vehicle
for this.)

But what you are suggesting isn't just automating away programming, but
automating away requirements analysis. And that's not happening any time soon.

[1] [http://www.bloom-lang.net/](http://www.bloom-lang.net/)

[2] [http://www.chris-granger.com/2014/10/01/beyond-light-
table/](http://www.chris-granger.com/2014/10/01/beyond-light-table/)

