
Ask HN: Is it ever okay for a physically healthy person to self terminate? - hsienmaneja
Strictly on the merit of having final say over one’s existence (presuming no appeal to religious authority), if someone can be selfish enough to consider their own needs above hurting others, shouldn’t anyone be allowed to self terminate?<p>Seems we allow this now; if someone is truly intent they will find a way.
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oldcynic
Selfish and unfair of them? Is that not just as selfish, if not more so
wanting to save you some pain whilst they must keep theirs - for your or
society's convenience? Would you restrict loved ones from risky activities for
the same reasoning?

A friend's grandfather killed himself a week or two after his lifelong wife
died. The family view seemed to be it was rather touching. I got no impression
anyone felt it was unfair. My friend certainly didn't.

After my dad died my mother lost interest in life. For the whole of the rest
of her life she wasn't enjoying it, deeply missed my father, and was really
just going through the motions. Not that she'd ever admit that though most saw
it clearly. She wasn't likely to be remarrying in her 70s.

She died of natural causes. Had she taken her life, I'd have been upset, just
as I was when she died. I think all her friends and family would have
understood, and I certainly wouldn't have thought less of her. It wouldn't
have hurt more. Actually almost certainly less, as it was so clear she was
hugely unhappy those last years, even though she "coped" very well.

I sure as hell wouldn't have called it unfair or selfish. I'd have probably
thought it fitting, touching or perhaps a relief for her. At the end of the
day it is their life to do with as they choose, not mine.

So yes, of course it can be OK, not exclusively for the elderly either.

------
hazz99
> a physically healthy person

I'm no psychologist, but would anyone who -wants- to self-terminate be
considered a "healthy person"? Legitimate question -- I can't imagine someone
who is in good health, has good relationships, and has a good possible "life
trajectory" to want to self-terminate.

> Seems we allow this now; if someone is truly intent they will find a way.

I disagree that we "allow this", because it's almost impossible to stop it
completely (by force & legislation, ignoring the effects of education &
awareness).

It is illegal to do it to yourself (for insurance reasons, I believe), and
it's illegal to assist someone else.

Again, I have no background knowledge here. Would be interesting to see some
different perspectives.

~~~
bausshf
You don't have to be depressed or anything to be suicidal.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/76qp85...](https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/76qp85/why_do_you_think_brandenn_bremmer_killed_himself/)

~~~
jidsaofjaeojf
Seems to be an open question, because it's presumed that the survival instinct
is linked with sound mental health.

------
drakonka
Yes, I think that people shouldn't have to have their reasoning judged by
external parties to decide what to do with their lives. A person's reasons for
wanting to end their lives are their own, and it is totally fine for them to
do so. If a loved one expressed the desire to kill themselves I would
absolutely do everything I can to talk them out of it, but one thing I will
not do is try to _guilt_ them out of it. Who are we to decide another person's
life or death?

------
Regardsyjc
I don't think so because suicide is or may be contagious. "...numerous social
science studies indicate that one of the best predictors of committing suicide
is knowing suicide."

When I was suicidal, I wondered if my suicide could influence someone else I
love to bite the bullet when they had a moment of weakness, and whether if I
could live with that. I considered metaphorically putting a gun to my head was
the same as putting a gun to another's psychologically. Honestly because I
have had two suicide attempts... Even though I didn't succeed, I know I hurt
the people I love very much.

I feel that every loss and death is like a tiny bomb in a social network, it
stresses families and communities, and can even severely damage people.

[https://www.brainpickings.org/2013/11/18/stay-suicide-
hecht/](https://www.brainpickings.org/2013/11/18/stay-suicide-hecht/)

------
naikrovek
I sort of always believed, sort of, that if you can prove that you aren't
mentally ill beyond a certain degree, that you're reasonably intelligent,
informed, and can show that you make good choices, you should be allowed to do
pretty much whatever you want, including suicide.

Note that this freedom I am describing does not include anything that impedes
another's freedom in any way. No murder, robbery, all the normal stuff.

If you can't prove that you are sane, and emotionally healthy, then you don't
get to buy guns, get married, earn more than $x per year and so on.

If a person is in this unhealthy or ignorant state they should be taken care
of by the state and reintegrated in the way that suits them best.

I don't _ever_ want this implemented for many, many reasons.

------
paulcole
Absolutely. I believe it’s possible to have had enough life.

I have Type 1 diabetes and do well managing it. I run long distances and if
you saw me you’d think I was a normal athletic and fairly fit person. So
technically I’m currently healthy but longterm who knows.

But even before I was diagnosed (early 30s) I was sick of being alive. I was
never drawn to having children, hate working, and don’t make that much money.

If I had the option of never waking up again, I’d take it. Probably take a
little time to blow my savings first, but I don’t have much to look forward
to.

~~~
jklein11
That seems pretty unfair to the people that care about you. They might not
even be family or close friends, but might be acquaintances, distant co-
workers, or people you see on the street. They get happiness out of
interacting with you and having you with them. It doesn't seem right to take
that away from them.

It sounds like you might be in a bad place mentally. I'm sure that it wouldn't
hurt to talk to a professional. Worst case, you spend an hour or two and maybe
a co-pay and still feel the same way you do now. Best case they may make every
day a little bit more bearable.

~~~
paulcole
Honestly, lots of things are unfair. That’s not a great argument.

But I would never do anything while my cat, dad, and grandma are still alive.
My partner would understand my decision. Other than that there’s not really
anybody else I care enough about to change my life for.

I already spend enough on medicine and doctors. I’m not interested in any
more.

~~~
jklein11
Sorry, I wasn't trying to convince you of anything, just share my opinion. Out
of curiosity, what makes you think that your partner would understand?

In regards to spending enough on medicine and doctors, I guess I don't fully
understand that. You mention blowing through your money at some point. Any
reason why this wouldn't be something worth blowing money on?

~~~
paulcole
I just think that logically it makes sense that someone can not want to live
any longer and I think my partner would understand that.

With my health there’s always a non-zero chance that I’ll just collapse on a
long run from low blood sugar and that’ll be that. I figure if it happens it
happens. My savings is mostly intended for my partner and my cat in that
situation. Not interested in giving it to anyone else. And it’s not like it’s
a ton either. Would get eaten up in a hurry by doctors and prescriptions.

One day when I’m older and the future is a little clearer, maybe I’ll be more
interested in spending more of it or giving some away to other people.

------
gaspoweredcat
in my opinion yes, there are multiple situations where id say its ok, there
are plenty of ways you can have essentially ruined your life either by fault
of your own or through happenstance but its also possible just to have had
enough, i think this can be especially true for people who are not what you
would call sociable creatures

i dont personally have the desire to interact with others much, ill never be
having children or entering a relationship and i have not got a career, just a
job that is a means to an end. while ive never been particularly well off ive
managed to tick off most everything on my bucket list.

in short i lack purpose and have many times considered that maybe ive had
enough, to what end should i continue to struggle on, things will only get
harder as the years go on, i have no reason to struggle on so i dont need to
be a drain on the resources of the country/world

------
patatino
Suicide is not selfish, it is a desperate act to stop the pain (physically or
mentally).

It's sad that we even consider it to be selfish. It shows how little empathy
we have sometimes.

If someone jumps from the 40th floor of a burning building we can understand
it. It's an extreme reaction to an extreme situation.

Like suicide.

~~~
hsienmaneja
The burning jumper scenario isn’t quite the same. In the case of 9/11 twin
towers, the jumpers were murdered, they didn’t commit suicide. Death was
certain for them whether they had jumped or not.

~~~
patatino
It's an example which people can understand. It's an impossible situation to
escape from. They chose the slightly better scenario. People who commit
suicide also chose the slightly better scenario (in their mind) for them.

~~~
jidsaofjaeojf
They're not the same. In the jumper scenario, imminent death was certain
whether they jumped or not. This is only true in a small fraction of suicides.

------
egberts1
Wut? I’ve read countless of spy novels.

I’m going to say that spies off themselves at their prime ... as needed.

------
jmarchello
Hey, I think you should talk to someone. Please call this number.
1-800-273-8255.

------
arthev
“On providence” by Seneca provides an interesting view on this.

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resource0x
how about divorcing your wife/husband, thus hurting her/him, your children and
others? Should anyone be allowed to do that?

~~~
smt88
Divorce may hurt people, but it's not a great analogy because a divorced
person can still be a good parent, financial supporter, repayer of debts, etc.

There's a huge difference between the damage of divorce vs. the damage of
death.

~~~
ionised
> good parent, financial supporter, repayer of debts

It doesn't sound like you're interested in what this person wants or needs at
all. You're just interested in what they can offer you while they're alive.

~~~
smt88
I'm not trying to argue about the merit of suicide, the definition of mental
health, or any other philosophical issue. I don't have a specific person or
situation in mind.

I'm only suggesting that the right to divorce is nothing like the right to
death and isn't a useful analogy. The circumstances and considerations are
radically different.

------
phaus
I don't have a good answer. I have a personal and surely biased feeling that
it is wrong and frequently harmful in a profound way to families and friends.

My older brother killed himself in a failed attempt to convincingly pretend to
be suicidal in order to be transferred to a lower security part of a prison.
He forgot that prison guards aren't paid enough to give a shit about anything
so they didn't follow their policy of roaming around and checking on people
and he bled to death. He was going to be there until he was almost 50.

Trying to be objective as possible. I think if it was allowed and there wasn't
a massive social stigma against it, there would still be huge issues. Even
old, experienced people are woefully bad at accurately estimating when a
situation is irretrievably hopeless. So I think we would see a lot of young
people (not just young as in kids but also 30-40 year olds) killing themselves
for really stupid reasons (like we already do).

We might see someone lose a job and kill themselves when there's a good chance
they could have recovered. A business might fail. A relationship might end. A
loved one might die suddenly. A lonely person might be tired of trying. The
temporary release of severe anguish in exchange for a life you currently
aren't very fond of doesn't seem a high cost to pay soon after traumatic
events occur.

I'm generally considered a pessimist. However, when it comes to life, I can
step back and acknowledge that there are lots of really bad situations that
are redeemable. It might take years of work. It might involve being depressed
or broke for a very long time. But persistent effort is the greatest indicator
of success.

I've been depressed my whole life so I understand the struggle. I know that in
addition to the regular life things many of us suffer from, there are also
various types of trauma that make the ordinary things unbearable.

I could see situations where I agree someone may have never had any chance for
their lives to improve.

I knew a young woman in her 20s with a 14-year old daughter with autism. The
child had so many issues she had to be monitored 24/7 to keep her from hurting
herself. The mother had a dead end, shitty job (coincidentally she was a
prison guard) that barely allowed her to survive. Between the job and the kid
it was laughable to suggest that she had any realistic chance at all of going
to school or finding a better job. When her girlfriend left her, she killed
herself. She wasn't a friend of mine, only an acquaintance that I didn't know
well. I wish she were still here, mostly from the pain that most any of us
would feel from simply knowing a person that died young. However, when I step
back and analyze her situation and try to think of any possibility of her
finding some kind of relief or comfort, I don't think she had a chance. As a
high school dropout, I should be a failure too, but I was fortunate and my
interests as a youth happened to become very marketable.

Some of us are forever trapped by the decisions we make when we are younger.
For those of us like this girl, where not just one or two things are stacked
against you, but seemingly everything. How can we judge? I want to be angry at
any person that leaves a child alone in this world when it could have been
prevented, but would I have the strength to live an impoverished life of
waking hell for 60 years? I'm not very confident I could.

------
ionised
I think its selfish and unfair to judge other people selfish and unfair just
because you want to save yourself the pain of loss.

That said, I do think people have the right to voluntarily end their own
existence, but clearly many suicides are a result of temporary mental problems
like severe depression, or temporary life problems like crippling debt, job
loss or loss of a relationship. These things could have potentially been
resolved.

I also think it's totally possible to have just had enough of life as well.
It's an unpopular opinion because survival instinct is such a strong force,
but I really don't think life is for everybody, and if that person wants to
check out they are going to do it whether you like it or not.

A comedian once said;

 __ _“Life is like a movie, if you 've sat through more than half of it and
it’s sucked every second so far, it probably isn't going to get great right at
the end and make it all worthwhile. None should blame you for walking out
early.”_ __

I tend to agree with that. Not all suicides are the result of mental illness.
Some people just want to check out early because they never enjoyed being
here, despite not having what outside observers may identify as mental or
personal problems.

Some societies glorified suicide, or held it as a way out of dishonour (think
the ship's captain locking himself in a room with a bottle of whiskey and a
revolver, or the Samurai that accepted their own deaths long before they
walked on the battlefield).

I think our attitudes towards suicide are partly social (it alarms us to see
members of our own species ending their lives, as it doesn't jive well with
our world view) and partly cultural/religious (Abrahamic religions treated
suicide as a mortal sin) and other cultures may see the act of self-
termination differently.

I also don't think its helpful to throw accusations of 'mental illness' around
as easily as we seem to. Whether it is a suicide or a mass murder, instantly
jumping to mental illness absolves us of the need to understand this
uncomfortable aspect of humanity.

It is easier than accepting the cultural and philisophical factors at play,
and the realisation that we are all capable of these acts given the right set
of circumstances.

Philosophers have long pondered this question. You can find arguments for and
against here;

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_suicide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_suicide)

[https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/)

------
mabynogy
No, it's immoral and a person with such feelings is not healthy.

~~~
ionised
Immoral according to who?

~~~
mabynogy
To mankind.

~~~
ionised
You spoken to all of mankind have you?

Interesting.

