
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone - obilgic
https://capitolhillautonomous.zone/
======
dang
All: this story is here because it's an interesting phenomenon, a la
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).
Before commenting, please make sure you're up to date on those rules and post
in the intended spirit (curiosity and conversation) not the opposite one
(ideology and battle).

~~~
dang
This is a stub comment to collect replies in one place, so that it can be
collapsed and prevent too much offtopicness at the top of the thread.

~~~
ShamelessC
Thanks for leaving this one up. I understand it's not the discourse this site
is directly interested in, but the occasional opportunity to debate such
issues in an intelligent forum is something I have trouble finding elsewhere
on the internet.

Having said that, I'm sure these types of post create a lot of work for you. I
appreciate the upkeep and please keep up the good work!

~~~
dgellow
> the occasional opportunity to debate such issues in an intelligent forum is
> something I have trouble finding elsewhere on the internet.

That's maybe the good place to ask:

What are other places (maybe places more open to political discussions) the HN
crowd would recommend for "intelligent discussions"? Twitter and Reddit are an
awful mess at the moment.

~~~
colinmhayes
LessWrong and niche subreddits depending on the political views you hope to
find.

~~~
ColanR
> depending on the political views you hope to find

It seems like the really good discussion places wouldn't have to carry this
caveat. It's too bad those are even harder to find.

~~~
alasdair_
> It seems like the really good discussion places wouldn't have to carry this
> caveat.

Ideally, yes, but if the political views you are hoping to find are ones that
overtly limit any dissent or respect for any other view (extreme absolute
authoritarianism for example) then the views themselves subvert the ability to
have meaningful discourse about them.

------
conroy
A friend lives in Seattle and texted me today about his visit last night:

> I was there last night and it's such a cool pseudo utopian place

> The media coverage of it is WILD

> People on the internet are convinced it's protected by armed guards and
> people are dying of hunger and instead its...like a music festival
> campground

> There are speakers, musicians, art walls. I took a group pic for a bunch of
> black guys last night and they were so proud of what was built because they
> felt like they fought for it, which in a sense, they did.

~~~
pera
> _The media coverage of it is WILD_

I live 7 blocks away from "the zone" and can confirm, I have never in my life
seen anything alike in this regard. The scale of the misinformation being
spread in social networks and news media reached a level I couldn't believe
possible before. Seriously, it's beyond absurd.

If anyone is interested, I have been taking some pictures of the ongoing
protests (including a few of the zone):
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/peramides](https://www.flickr.com/photos/peramides)

~~~
drevil-v2
Seattle police chief said on TV [1] that "Rapes, robberies and all sorts of
violent acts have been occurring in the area and we're not able to get to
[them]."

Doesn’t sound very utopian

[1]
[https://twitter.com/mrandyngo/status/1271291958296604675?s=2...](https://twitter.com/mrandyngo/status/1271291958296604675?s=21)

~~~
mcv
Wasn't it the police who abandoned this area in the first place?

The impression I'm getting from this and other events from the past weeks is
that the police would like us to believe that without them, society turns to
chaos, but in practice, US police turns out to be a major source of chaos, and
without them things often turn much more peaceful.

I'm not saying there should be no police at all, but that police should work
with the community, instead of trying to dominate it.

~~~
ogre_codes
> police would like us to believe that without them, society turns to chaos

The police benefit from chaos during these protests, I'm sure the temptation
to foster chaos and destruction is quite high for them right now. It puts the
protesters in a bad light and reinforces the idea that police are needed.

There are multiple cases where police have been observed contributing to the
chaos or just idling around while it happened nearby. Definitely not
universal, but some departments are doing the opposite of their job.

~~~
TheGrim999
You think the protestors also don't benefit from chaos? Neither side is
innocent here.

Any time the police are pushed to the point where they use force on the
protestors, mass media is then awash with out of context clips of the event,
claiming police brutality, drumming up more support for the protestors and
their cause. The more chaos, the better it is for the protester's message.

There's lots of peaceful protests every year that don't end in the police
using force. In fact, the vast majority of them, before this. These protestors
benefit politically if the police use force. So what's the difference here,
why do these "protests" result in use of force? It's blatantly obvious to me
..

~~~
ogre_codes
> You think the protestors also don't benefit from chaos? Neither side is
> innocent here.

I don't see how your point is relevant here.

Protestors aren't paid with tax dollars.

Cops are getting paid massive amounts of overtime to prevent looting and
damage during this crisis and instead they are contributing to it.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
From the mayor's public statements, it's clear that there's political pressure
to not intervene - it doesn't seem to be solely a police decision.

------
VWWHFSfQ
I lived in Seattle Capitol Hill (Harvard Ave by SCCC) area for 10 years and
left the state in 2010. I went back a few years ago for a visit and it looked
like the homeless population had doubled in the time since. All of King and
Pierce counties are completely overrun by homelessness and drug addiction. I
remember it was a big deal when they would go sweep out "The Jungle" tent city
under I-5 at Beacon Hill. Now they're building tent cities right in the middle
of residential neighborhoods.

Seattle and the Puget Sound is a beautiful place but horrible place to live.
They have an absolutely useless government that has no idea how to solve any
of their problems. So they end up with stuff like this.

~~~
jessaustin
Recent events cast doubt on your judgment of the government there. Unlike e.g.
New York they have dealt somewhat effectively with the pandemic. Seattle was
hit first yet seems to have brought the situation under control with fewer
deaths than other American cities. At the very least, they didn't force covid-
positive patients into old folks' homes.

~~~
VWWHFSfQ
There's a pretty big difference between Seattle and NYC in terms of size and
population density. Like many orders of magnitude difference. But you're right
that NYC didn't handle the outbreak very well.

~~~
jessaustin
MSA population: 19M/4M -> _less than one_ order of magnitude

City population: 8.3M/750k -> _one_ order of magnitude

City density: 28k/8400 -> _less than one_ order of magnitude

This is not what one imagines when one encounters the sentence fragment "Like
many orders of magnitude difference."

[EDIT:] Normally technical correctness is appreciated? If anyone here really
thinks that New York has done a better job dealing with the pandemic than
Washington State, I would _love_ to see the reasoning. ISTM this argument from
population proves too much; why can't it be invoked anytime New York's
performance lags other states?

~~~
VWWHFSfQ
you see there's a pretty big difference though

~~~
jessaustin
They are not the same city, but no two cities are. Lots of denser and more
populous cities in other nations have done better. Most of the most serious
mistakes in New York were made at the state level; Washington State exhibited
better governance. New York at least had some warning that the pandemic was
coming. Washington had the USA patient zero.

------
Animats
They need a political win on something in the next few days. Otherwise this
thing fizzles out, is crushed, or turns into a joke like the 2016 bird
sanctuary occupation. Some of Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" apply.

⬤ "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag."

⬤ "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative."

That's the problem with "defund the police". "We'd all love to see the plan",
as John Lennon once put it.

Camden NJ did do this. They fired their entire police department and started
over. Sometimes you have to do that. Sometimes you just need to fire the
bottom 1-10%. Maybe give randomly-chosen civil grand juries the power to fire
cops. Not just for criminal offenses, just for being subpar at being a cop.

~~~
remarkEon
>Camden NJ did do this. They fired their entire police department and started
over.

Except that's not really what happened. They fired the existing police force
at the time but most were hired back (155 of the 220 that reapplied), and then
they expanded to a complement of 401 officers (it was 370 before). Then they
built a gigantic surveillance apparatus that tracks pretty much everything.
So, more police, more surveillance.

Homicides have apparently declined 63% since they did this.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_County_Police_Departmen...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_County_Police_Department)

~~~
rosstex
If you're gonna cite Wikipedia, you need to add this:

>Thomson announced that officers would no longer be judged on how many tickets
they wrote or arrests they made but on relationships they developed in the
community and whether citizens felt safe enough to sit on their front steps or
allow their children to ride their bikes in the street. Thomson told the New
York Times in 2017 that "aggressive ticket writing" was a sign that officers
weren't understanding the new department, saying "handing a $250 ticket to
someone who is making $13,000 a year can be life altering." On new recruits'
first day, they knock on doors in the neighborhood they're assigned to and
introduce themselves.

~~~
remarkEon
Yeah, sounds like a great idea! I'm glad they did it.

If police "reform" amounts to a prohibition on juicing the stats a la _The
Wire_ , increasing the size of the force by 25-30%, and adding a measured and
deeply considered surveillance regime then great.

Haven't seen any of the activists ask for that though.

------
Pfhreak
Seattle police vacated the east precinct, fully expecting protesters to burn
it down. Instead, the protesters set up an open zone, compiled a set of
demands, and from all accounts set up something cool and unique.

Here's hoping it sustains itself for a while.

~~~
jerf
No, not even remotely "by all accounts". There are plenty of accounts that
isn't "cool and unique" but is just another place ruled by violent thugs:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_and_crew_assault_man_for_graffiti_june/)

I'm not passing judgment yet since the days are young and the political bias
on the ground is _thick_ in both directions. But it is definitely not "by all
accounts".

But my personal bias on the table is that yeah, trading police that were
imperfectly constrained by the system for new police utterly and entirely
unconstrained by the system is probably not going to go well. The real "fun"
will start when Raz's faction pisses off enough people to form a violent
counterfaction and you get a gang war, so give it a bit. It takes time for
these things to develop. Let the honeymoon wear off and have this place
showing a functioning system for, oh, say, at least a _month_ before declaring
victory. Not that you declared victory, I'm just saying, I recommend against
getting too invested in this.

It's not as if "a place that has no police" is some shocking new experiment
that has never been run before; you've got plenty of places you can look out
in the world to see what happens next. It's not a difficult-to-predict
progression.

~~~
Pfhreak
I watched that video, I saw someone coming in and defacing peoples homes. The
people filming asked if they had permission, then asked the person to stop.
The person refused to stop painting and pushed the group of folks and there
was a scuffle that ended with the tagger walking away.

Aside, intentionally or unintentionally, calling a group of predominantly
black people "thugs" is a common dog whistle.

~~~
goatsi
>and there was a scuffle that ended with the tagger walking away.

That was just the beginning of the confrontation. If you watch the full video
the group then followed and hassled the tagger for several minutes before the
tagger was hit in the face and had their glasses broken (and their smartphone
was stolen from them). Someone also threatened to blow the taggers brains out.

------
aazaa
The first (of several) demands reads:

> The Seattle Police Department and attached court system are beyond reform.
> We do not request reform, we demand abolition. We demand that the Seattle
> Council and the Mayor defund and abolish the Seattle Police Department and
> the attached Criminal Justice Apparatus. This means 100% of funding,
> including existing pensions for Seattle Police. At an equal level of
> priority we also demand that the city disallow the operations of ICE in the
> city of Seattle.

[https://capitolhillautonomous.zone/demands.html](https://capitolhillautonomous.zone/demands.html)

This is a fascinating experiment that seems to channel a number of forces
bubbling just below the surface for decades. The futile, never-ending war on
drugs. Police violence. Lack of police accountability. Institutional racism.

What will be more fascinating is what new political parties develop. These
demands are well outside the mainstream, but given recent events, not
impossible to see being implemented to one degree or another.

But neither party has the alignment of interests for this kind of reform.

Without a political party, it's hard to imagine how anything changes after the
banners and barricades come down.

~~~
tvanantwerp
As someone with close ties to an existing third party, they shouldn't put much
hope on forming one and seeing it succeed. The American electoral system makes
it nearly impossible for third parties to gain traction. And that's before you
take into account that the people most likely to join third parties are also
the most likely to be fringe personalities with little mainstream appeal and a
penchant for causing internal strife.

~~~
Taikonerd
> The American electoral system makes it nearly impossible for third parties
> to gain traction.

That's true, under the existing system. And that makes it attractive to reform
the system, to make it easier for third parties to grow.

For example, approval voting was passed in Fargo recently:
[https://www.electionscience.org/commentary-
analysis/approval...](https://www.electionscience.org/commentary-
analysis/approval-voting-in-fargo-will-increase-underdog-candidates-chance-of-
success/)

tl;dr -- third parties can't grow as long as "splitting the vote" is a thing.
But some voting systems have that and others don't.

~~~
delecti
I love approval voting. It's so simple, but for some reason ranked choice
always seems to be pushed harder when talking about alternative voting
systems.

------
yingw787
I wonder if it's bigger than Sealand:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand)

When I look at the list of demands I'm pretty quick to dismiss it. Then I
remember how I dismissed the 1999 WTO protests in Seattle too, and how many of
the fears those protesters had were realized over the next two decades. I
might be too hopeful, but I really think the city leadership should talk to
them and hear them out, instead of just trying to push them over.

~~~
harryh
_many of the fears those protesters had were realized over the next two
decades_

Is there a list of these fears somewhere? Ideally as presented at the time.

~~~
0x262d
well, globalization on neoliberal terms has continued to hollow out living
standards in advanced countries while turning neocolonial countries into large
sweatshops. the life expectancy in the US has fallen for 2 or 3 years in a row
now largely as a downstream result of this. that is my understanding of one
major concern from that.

~~~
refurb
Globalization has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty in China.

~~~
0x262d
China industrialized on the basis of incredibly terrible working conditions
(ie high profitability via low wages) that have only recently been improving.
And as they've improved, globalization has shifted manufacturing to other
countries who have worse working conditions again. "Lifted out of poverty"
sounds nice but tends to mostly mean that people who were formerly peasants
have instead worked in sweatshops and horrible factories for decades or
centuries. It's easy to view that as all well and good if you are happily
working in the global labor aristocracy, but it's not actually fair.

~~~
refurb
_" Lifted out of poverty" sounds nice but tends to mostly mean that people who
were formerly peasants have instead worked in sweatshops and horrible
factories for decades or centuries._

Right, so lifted out of poverty. Just because you think their new job is a
"horrible sweatshop", doesn't mean their lives haven't actually improved.

~~~
0x262d
You're mistaken about the standard of living of peasants vs superexploited
wage laborers, and doing that smug "the thing that worked super well for me
must have worked for those guys no matter how bad off they seem" thing.

------
joeyspn
Seems like GenZ is having their occupy moment. The police is probably just
waiting for them to get tired and go home. In few weeks back to "normal".

~~~
michaelmrose
There is a persistent desire to suck the funds out of the police force budget
and redirect the money to things the community values. This unlike occupy is a
tangible goal and if people only elect people willing to give it to them it
will happen regardless of what people outside of Seattle want.

~~~
hedora
Occupy Wall Street had a tangible goal. Break up big banks, and forgive
predatory loans.

Even with Obama in office, we ended up with even bigger banks and a spiraling
debt crisis.

~~~
noelsusman
I don't remember that being a consistent, clearly articulated goal. That's
also orders of magnitude more difficult to accomplish than shifting some city
budgets around.

~~~
Ghostt8117
Protests almost never have a "consistent, clearly articulated goal," because
of the nature of protests. People protest a problem and there are sometimes
hundreds of proposed solutions. Unfortunately, certain biased media outlets
choose the most extreme offered solutions and highlight them to discredit the
entire movement and ignore the problem. And "shifting some city budgets
around" is not as easy as it sounds.

------
blaser-waffle
I believe Denmark had something like this for a while. It started with
squatters taking over an area kind of like this.

Turned into a serious drug venue and eventually fell apart. Sounds like it
sort of restarted, albeit with regular Danish law enforcement and other city
resources.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania)

~~~
KozmoNau7
> Turned into a serious drug venue and eventually fell apart. Sounds like it
> sort of restarted, albeit with regular Danish law enforcement and other city
> resources.

As someone living in Copenhagen, I would not consider that anything near an
accurate description of the history of Christiania. What happened was that an
old military area and barracks was left abandoned and disused, so a group of
squatters moved in, fixed up the place and built a community.

It did not turn into a "serious drug venue". They had issues with hard drugs
in the 1970s, but kicked all of that to the curb and there is a strict
community-supported ban on all hard drugs. Over the years various sellers have
popped up here and there, but they are generally shunned and chased out by the
community.

It also did not "fall apart", although it has had its ups and downs. The
political winds have varied from indifference to acceptance to attempts to
abolish the entire things, raze the area and built apartments. The current
state is that the area is owned by a foundation and is treated partly as a
part of the city of Copenhagen and partly as an independent enclave. Danish
law enforcement is grudgingly accepted in cases of actual crimes, but
otherwise not exactly openly welcomed.

~~~
bathtub365
I was in Christiania late last year and there were at least a dozen tables
with sellers selling drugs. It didn’t seem like the community was shunning
them or running them out

~~~
kinghajj
> They had issues with hard drugs in the 1970s, but kicked all of that to the
> curb and there is a strict community-supported ban on all hard drugs.

Are you sure that the dealers you saw were trading hard drugs, and not soft
ones like cannabis, mushrooms, etc.?

------
haram_masala
I don't live there, but there's something about all this that make it seem
like a wildly overblown media event - that the actual thing itself is much
more pedestrian and much less sensational than reports would have us believe.

~~~
kixiQu
I live there. This is correct in that the CHAZ itself has its biggest impacts
through

a. having free snacks and b. not allowing through traffic, but

it really hasn't been stated enough how awful it _had_ been when the police
were there. Helicopters all night and if you were unlucky to be close enough:
[https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/06/04/43840246/seattle...](https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/06/04/43840246/seattle-
residents-got-tear-gassed-in-their-own-apartments)

~~~
rabidrat
This is correct. I live 3 blocks from CHAZ and I was gassed in my apartment 3
nights last week. I feel much safer without the police around right now.

~~~
dag11
Same. Nothing was more gut-wrenching than watching the flash bombing and
gassing of peaceful protestors from our rooftop. Something felt so
unconstitutional and fascist about it.

------
balls187
Capitol Hill's police precinct has been abandoned, however, police are still
responding to 9-1-1 calls to the area.

This feels very much overblown.

Seattle Times has an article that outlines similar "occupy" protests.

[https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/welcome-to-the-
cap...](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/welcome-to-the-capitol-hill-
autonomous-zone-where-seattle-protesters-gather-without-
police/?utm_source=marketingcloud&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TSA_061120030533+Capitol+Hill+Autonomous+Zone+What+is+it_6_10_2020&utm_term=Active%20subscriber)

~~~
FireBeyond
There was almost an air of disappointment from SPD that the police station
_wasn't_ burned down. It seemed that they were threatening that it was only a
matter of time, "We told you so"-style. But alas.

------
motohagiography
I defer to moderators whether this crosses the line on political content.

It's interesting how this is organized by largely college educated people,
many of whom are not PoC, and I think the federal response to this will be
tolerance because these people are ultimately vying for institutional power,
and feds realize they will all be working for one another in 10 years.

It's less about right/left than how I'd posit if CHAZ were operated by non-
college educated people or even was exclusively a movement by people of color,
the federal authorities would have already found some pretext for lethal
force. It's not like the CHAZ organizers are poor or relatively uneducated
people without political recourse, like say, a niche religious sect, some
ranchers, or even just a radicalized family - all examples of subjects of
federal sieges in recent memory.

Communes and autonomous zones are romantic, but they exist because they are
tolerated or explicitly used as a source of volatility by a movement already
within the establishment.

If this seems provocative, I'd argue it gets to the crux of the issue of why
certain movements are tolerated and others are not. CHAZ is a tactic in a
conflict between movements that are far above it within the establishment.
That it has not been subject to an ATF-style siege shows it necessarily is the
expression of top level political backing.

There are numerous precedents for how this plays out, as it has throughout
history in France, Russia, Germany, China, and Cambodia. Unfortunately, the
advice I have for people everywhere is above all, you must find a way to
resist the isolation, paralysis, and atomization that separates people from
their communities, which will be used to cow people into tolerating horrible
things that will themselves just build momentum. The only way for CHAZ and
related movements to yield peace is for people to recognize that before their
relationships to these movements (positive or negative), you are members of
families, neighbourhoods, communities, trades, professions, regions, and not
insignificant atoms subject to global forces of history and nature. Especially
if ostensibly isolated acts of terror begin.

I think it is urgent to recognize that there are precedents for what's
happening today that provide predictive power to how this could play out, and
to equip people with a reminder to above all resist political atomization,
especially when it becomes hard to do so, because it deprives us all of our
humanity, which is the only thing standing between us and the darkest chapters
of history.

~~~
49531
> It's interesting how this is organized by largely college educated people,
> many of whom are not PoC

Do you have a source for this? I haven't been able to find a list of people
involved in organizing this.

~~~
motohagiography
Not a source I'd be willing to provide, especially given such lists are
precisely what political organizers avoid sharing. However, as an exercise,
you can see the make up of the civil society organizations and businesses who
provide funding and support for social causes, and neither of these are made
up of the uneducated or working poor.

~~~
49531
My only experience with social causes is doing labor organizing in Seattle,
but that experience has been almost exclusively organized and run by
uneducated working poor.

My point being that from what it looks like, there probably isn't a list of
people organizing the CHAZ because it's mostly a spontaneous reaction to the
current circumstances. They're explicitly non-hierarchical, and if they look
anything like the circles of activism I've worked with in Seattle they're
probably made up of more working class activists than this idea of liberal
business owners.

But that is just my assumption based on my own anecdotal experience, I don't
live in Seattle anymore and haven't been to the CHAZ myself.

~~~
jatone
You're probably not familiar with Seattle.... there is a base of people there
who are capable of this. there has been ongoing conflict between the local
populace and the SPD. for over a year. probably longer, but a 1-2 years ago is
when it popped up on my radar.

this is hardly spontaneous, seems more like they just told the police to fuck
off.

------
hnarn
I don’t have an opinion on the morality of this instance of an “autonomous
zone” but it made me think of the concept of “TAZ” as described in this book,
may be interesting for those interested in anarchist politics:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone)

------
superfrank
Oh, Jesus Christ... I live about 3/4s of a mile from the "Capitol Hill
Autonomous Zone". The way people are talking about this is ridiculous.

It's basically a bunch of wannabe Marxists LARPing.

They call the area "self-governed" and "abandoned", but the city had workers
mowing the grass at Cal Anderson Park, two days after it was "established".
There are cops sitting like 10 blocks away in case things get out of hand.

CHAZ is basically a block party at this point that the cops letting exist
while tensions cool down a bit. If anything started to get of hand, you can be
certain the police would be on the scene any moment. It's autonomous in the
same way my house is autonomous. The police will let me do my thing until they
get wind that I'm doing something decently illegal.

If you want to see a real "Autonomous Zone" in Seattle, 3rd and Pike is your
spot. The cops let pretty much anything go there and it's a crap hole.

Edit: I'd like to add, I'm not trying to take anything away from their
message. I think these protests need to be happening. I just think it's stupid
that people are acting like some outside of the government people first
commune has been created when really, it's basically the same as when people
set up a bunch of tents in the park during the Occupy movement.

~~~
binaryfour
> If you want to see a real "Autonomous Zone" in Seattle, 3rd and Pike is your
> spot. The cops let pretty much anything go there and it's a crap hole.

Too true

~~~
rantwasp
too too true. for more color, the locals call that area McStabbys (also heard
CrackDonals). It’s really really bad

~~~
binaryfour
LOL I used to switch buses there and "CrackDonalds" is way too fitting of a
name

~~~
rantwasp
hahahah. the shit i’ve seen there waiting for the bus will also last me for a
lifetime.

------
goodmattg
The comparison to Freetown Christinia is thought provoking, but the key
difference seems to be that Capital Hill has been a trendy part of town with
new apartments going up and rents increasing for the last decade, whereas
Christinia was originally an abandoned site.

I don't question the resolve or peaceful intentions of the people currently
occupying CHAZ, but instead the patience of property managers, local
residents, and local businesses (though closed due to COVID-19).

------
ghostofblanqui
Didn't expect this to be posted here. I've put up a FAQ now answering a lot of
the questions in this thread and dispelling the rumours. Thank you!

------
albybisy
From Wikipedia: Animal Farm by G.Orwell "The book tells the story of a group
of farm animals who rebel against their human farmer, hoping to create a
society where the animals can be equal, free, and happy. Ultimately, however,
the rebellion is betrayed, and the farm ends up in a state as bad as it was
before, under the dictatorship of a pig named Napoleon."
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm)

~~~
docdeek
One reddit thread suggests it is already heading that way.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_and_crew_assault_man_for_graffiti_june/)

~~~
ciarannolan
From the OP of that post:

>tl;dw: Man was tagging over someone else's art, Raz and group approach and
separate him from crowd, chasing him for two blocks. He begins to film them
with his phone, they take it from him. He tries to get it back and they attack
him, kicking him in the head and breaking his glasses. At one point, Raz
threatens to shoot the man. They then begin to gaslight him that it was all
his fault. Audio only for most of the end, because woman in Raz' crew filming
puts the phone in her pocket while the stream continues. [1]

So it took about 3 days for this anarchist utopia to demonstrate exactly why
police exist.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_and_crew_assault_man_for_graffiti_june/ftkhmqn/)

~~~
dev1n
Raz isn't a reason why the police exist. Raz is a product of a system where
the police exist too much, which if given the proper social and educational
services earlier in his life, his character and personality disorder
exemplified here would have been nullified.

~~~
ciarannolan
At what point are adults responsible for their own actions?

This guy and his crew beat up and threatened to kill someone for a petty
crime. What does that have to do with the police existing "too much"?

~~~
thephyber
> This guy and his crew beat up and threatened to kill someone for a petty
> crime.

That's exactly what caused all of these protests.

> At what point are adults responsible for their own actions?

It's constantly of interest to me how much "free will" actually exists. The
more research comes out about environmental factors, the more we realize that
people who suffer {home, food, employment, physical} insecurity exhibit
symptoms as if they had a lower IQ and stress which is correlated with
increased mental illness, stress, blood pressure, and other health problems.

It also strikes me that the current legal corrections system really only works
if we, as individuals, have significant ability to decide not to commit a
crime as opposed to it being the most likely destiny based on our current
{personal, environmental} state.

------
Minor49er
Seattle doesn't want to be beaten by Minneapolis to becoming the next Detroit

~~~
nikkwong
Yes, I'm personally very worried about this as someone who is heavily invested
in the real estate market here. The issue of how to deal with the rapid growth
in the city is multifaceted and it's difficult to pitch a stance on.

At the very least, you could easily make an argument that a rising tide does
not lift all boats; i.e. many people are personally not benefiting much from
the tech-boom in the area. On the other hand, if your stance is that our
collective goal should be to produce the greatest amount of good for the
greatest number of people; then we want more people to move to the city have
prosperous lives to fulfill the new roles available here. In that scenario
it's hard to keep income inequality from expanding.

It seems like thusfar the city council has done a good job at striking a
balance; MHA (mandatory housing affordability) is a level-headed way to
redistribute some of the gains that tech has brought to those who are less
fortunate. However, our current city council is much more left-leaning and I'm
worried that their stance towards growth is far more "progressive" and anti-
business.

Should people really be entitled to live in an expensive city that they cannot
afford? Cities like Manhattan or SF have sort of taken a stance on that and it
favors the prosperous. I'm not sure how I feel about the matter; but I
certainly do not want us to dampen our potential future potential by
encouraging businesses to set up shop elsewhere. We need more initiatives like
MHA and fewer like the business head-tax.

~~~
deathgrips
>Should people really be entitled to live in an expensive city that they
cannot afford? Cities like Manhattan or SF have sort of taken a stance on that
and it favors the prosperous.

I find it eerie that you're excluding from the equation the tens of thousands
of homeless people in those cities. The right question is "to what lengths
should we go to give people the ability to live with a roof over their heads?"
The bay area has answered with "very little", where most people are barely
offering human empathy to the homeless.

~~~
nikkwong
Homelessness is a complex problem which I believe namely stems from
psychological and substance abuse disorders. I think there is likely a
relationship between the amount of income inequality in a society and the
amount of homelessness.

I do believe that we should support the homeless populations of our cities;
but if you're familiar with Seattle's homelessness problems in particular,
you'll know that the city has essentially thrown literally hundreds of
millions of dollars at the problem to little effect.

I don't believe Seattle should follow a path of growth-at-all-costs and ignore
the social problems the city has; but the city council here is staunchly anti-
business, and that carries a risk-too, like the original commenter said—take
growth for granted and you can end up like Detroit. In that situation, no one
prospers, and everyone suffers; which we definitely don't want. It's a fine
line to walk. That's all I'm saying.

~~~
deathgrips
>Homelessness is a complex problem which I believe namely stems from
psychological and substance abuse disorders

I think this is about as useful as saying "homelessness is caused by
loitering". We're confusing cause and effect. Try living on the streets for a
few years where people treat you worse than shit without developing some
mental illness or abusing drugs to deal with the stress and loneliness. If you
think that the cause is mental illness and drugs and throwing money at it
mostly does nothing, why do you think San Francisco has by a long shot the
highest rate of homelessness in America?

~~~
tathougies
> highest rate of homelessness in America?

Please do not spread lies. SF does not have the highest homelessness rate in
America. Eugene Oregon has the most homeless:
[https://www.security.org/resources/homeless-
statistics/](https://www.security.org/resources/homeless-statistics/) ,
followed by LA and NY.

------
erdos4d
It has the look of a mini Christiania, nice to see something like this sprout
up in the US. I hope it sticks around and becomes something really cool.

------
ed25519FUUU
I never understand why likeminded people don’t just start a city? “Wild
country” was an example of this, but they were bound together by a quasi
religion.

There’s so much unincorporated land in the USA. So many opportunities to prove
things work or don’t work. Why move into a place somebody else built?

~~~
rtkwe
Unincorporated but not unowned and there's a huge amount of infrastructure and
money required to setup even a small town ex nihilo in some randomly selected
part of the country.

~~~
ed25519FUUU
Building infrastructure is something easily solved by capitalist. Can it not
also be solved by likeminded people with alternative economic principles?

~~~
rtkwe
Because beyond doing it by hand and setting up a city sized septic system the
equipment for stuff like processing waste and preparing water is extremely
expensive and the only sources want lots of money for them. It's doable just
very delicate and requires permission and buy-in from actors in the existing
system.

------
jmpman
I’ve always wondered, if a community like this were able to completely leave
the US, and didn’t have to pay for the military, or the police, would they be
able to fund their own demands for free healthcare, free college, etc? I’m
going to guess that overall, the occupants are below the average income level
of Seattle, but would they be able to afford the lifestyle they’re requesting?

~~~
danharaj
Is "lifestyle" the most appropriate word you could choose for "access to
healthcare and education"?

~~~
jmpman
Each of those items have a cost associated with them, at least at a societal
level, even if they are provided free to the end consumer. A doctor, even if
providing free services in a completely altruistic manner, must eat and be
housed, as do college professors. A society must choose how to allocate their
resources. Based upon the CHAZ demands, they wish to have a society which
provides healthcare and college. I would call that a lifestyle.

My question was, does there exist a sufficient productivity in the population
in the CHAZ to provide those services to their population?

From Wikipedia: Lifestyle is the interests, opinions, behaviours, and
behavioural orientations of an individual, group, or culture.

The demand for access to healthcare and education does seem to be the
interest, opinion and behavior of this group.

------
kyleblarson
My first thought was 'I feel bad for the people who spent a million bucks on a
condo in Pike / Pine', but my second thought was that these are likely also
people who voted for people like Sawant so they made their own bed.

~~~
umeshunni
Given that Sawant won with a tiny majority, that's an unfair judgement of
those people.

~~~
golf1052
Sawant was running for re-election for her third term. She wasn't an unknown
political figure.

------
gesticulator
This site documents the zone with a timeline, some pictures and local articles
as well: [https://chaz.zone/](https://chaz.zone/)

------
dawg-
Their first demand is that the Seattle Police Department be abolished, as in
100% defunded, as in completely deleted. Coming out with a demand like that is
just asking to lose right off the bat.

I wish they would delete it and stick with their second demand - take all
weapons away from police. No guns, no batons, no tasers. It's also crazy, but
at least it's crazy in a "this might just be crazy enough to work" kind of
way.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Their first demand is that the Seattle Police Department be abolished, as in
> 100% defunded, as in completely deleted. Coming out with a demand like that
> is just asking to lose right off the bat.

Abolition of existing centralized paramilitary police departments in favor of
rethinking public safety and social services and reconstituting and
redistributing law enforcement within a new framework is an idea which has
fairly rapidly recently moved from the fringes to the mainstream of debate,
and it is a policy openly and actively being discussed by many local
governments, and already committed to by the Minneapolis City Council.

It may seem, by a pre-June-2020 perspective, to be an out-of-the-range-of-
serious-debate demand, but the Overton Window on that issue just underwent and
sudden and massive shift.

~~~
remarkEon
It's also extraordinarily unpopular, across the ideological spectrum[1].

>...which has _fairly rapidly recently moved_ from the fringes to the
mainstream of debate, and it is a policy openly and actively being discussed
by many local governments, and already committed to by the Minneapolis City
Council.

>but the Overton Window on that issue just underwent and sudden and massive
shift.

Well you're right about that. Because it's insane, and generates clicks,
likes, and retweets and so media keeps covering like it's actually popular
despite the fact the inverse is true to keep generating their clicks, likes,
and retweets. I've been waiting for the Star Tribune to actually run some
local polling on this, because everyone I know still back there also thinks
it's insane. My guess is they do run the polls, and don't publish the results
for the same reason.

[1][https://twitter.com/databyler/status/1268555840098906115?ref...](https://twitter.com/databyler/status/1268555840098906115?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)

~~~
dragonwriter
“Cut funding for police departments”, that is shown in that poll isn't what
the dismantle/abolish is about (it's not even a fair portrayal what “defund”
is centrally about, which is _shifting funding from PDs to alternative
services_.) And that poll is from near the beginning of the recent protests.

More recent polling shows much higher support for both “defund” and
“dismantle” than what that poll found for it's lopsided framing of “defund”.

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-
poll-e...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-poll-
exclusive/exclusive-most-americans-including-republicans-support-sweeping-
democratic-police-reform-proposals-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKBN23I380)

~~~
remarkEon
Yes, there exists nuance to the "defund the police" stance (though a lot less
on the whole "abolish" the police position). My point is that _many people_
have essentially been gaslit into thinking this has widespread support. It
does not, regardless of whatever nuance exists.

From your article:

>For example, 39% of respondents supported proposals “to completely dismantle
police departments and give more financial support to address homelessness,
mental health, and domestic violence.”

So, only 39% of respondents support "dismantling" (notice the specific word
choice here) and essentially creating, out of thin air I guess, _another
organization_ that would obviously have a license to engage in violence if
their charter includes dealing with domestic violence. This is an echo chamber
proposal if there ever was one.

~~~
hellomyguys
If you told me this stat a month ago, I would never believe it. 39% is a
shocking amount and I can only imagine it is going to increase.

You're right that we would still need to train a new organization to deal with
violent events. But you're also ignoring the upside of not having a cop with a
gun issuing speeding tickets, or dealing with someone experiencing mental
health issues, or other things that could be better served by more specialized
roles.

~~~
remarkEon
>give more financial support to address homelessness, mental health, and
domestic violence.

is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this poll, which should be obvious. I'm not
ignoring anything. Cops respond to a variety of calls, all the time ...
because there simply are not enough of them to have this "specialized" force
you think would solve all of these problems. The grand irony of all of this is
that the defunding of the police departments in this country will make the
kinds of reforms you are talking about impossible.

~~~
hellomyguys
>Cops respond to a variety of calls, all the time ... because there simply are
not enough of them to have this "specialized" force you think would solve all
of these problems.

This makes no sense.

~~~
remarkEon
You ever put a duty roster together? Done a Troops to Task analysis? If you
wanted to have separate divisions that all do only one thing you need more
troops. If you spread the workload around you can get by with fewer but the
service level probably suffers. It's that simple. So sometimes you do domestic
calls, next rotation you're on traffic or patrol. If you want specialized
units, which to me does sound smart and does sound like an idea worth
exploring, _you need more officers_. Maybe it's possible to save some money
here (I imagine there'd be some salary disparity depending on which
specialization you choose). Ironically, again, this would make the police
_more_ like the military - not less. The military already has specialized
branches that have categories of doctrinal tasks they are responsible for
(artillery vs infantry, armor vs cavalry ... and in this example patrol vs
traffic).

~~~
dragonwriter
> If you wanted to have separate divisions that all do only one thing you need
> more troops.

This assumes that generalists are equally effective at all tasks as
specialists. Well, as a generality; in the specific case of all-purpose use of
police vs appropriate use of other community services, it actually involves
the assumption that specialists in the application of violence to achieve
compliance are as effective in specialists in tasks unrelated to application
of violence in those non-violent tasks.

In technology, if senior IT management decided they could reduce staff by
having network installation specialists, with little to no additional
training, cover application development, QA, requirements analysis, SRE, DBA,
desktop support, and project management tasks instead of having specialists in
each of those domains, they'd rightly be viewed as insane. But that's,
broadly, what local governments have done with city services, with cops in the
role of the network installers.

------
matxip
For those interested, this is a previously streamed speaking event in the
CHAZ:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7nDkd3V2V0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7nDkd3V2V0)

------
iron0013
It’s funny; this being HN, some of you must live in Seattle. So instead of
spreading sub-Facebook level rumors and FUD, why don’t you walk over to CHAZ
and see the reality for yourself?

~~~
elbigbad
I live in Seattle, went over yesterday with no preconceived notions of what
must be there. I had seen some posts that it was pretty lawless, but really
took them with a grain of salt. Nothing I had heard about it was true. I
didn't see any guns, no violence, or anything, no checkpoints (just barricades
stopping actual cars from coming in, but not stopping people/bicycles). Just a
bunch of people kind of hanging out listening to speeches near the East
Precinct building. The live stream link on the OP shows it, basically people
hanging out, walking around, etc.

If you do live in Seattle, you should head over and see it for yourself. It's
a very unique thing and who knows how long it will be there. I assume at some
point the police will drive a tank through it or something.

~~~
iron0013
There you have it folks, eyewitness testimony. And yet somehow I suspect the
people that believe the rapper warlord Orwellian dystopia narrative won’t
change their mind one bit.

~~~
tathougies
Well I am a brown man who's lived in America my entire life, and I've never
been harassed by police. So there you have it... eyewitness testimony. And yet
somehow I suspect the people that believe that America is a police-state
dystopia won't change their mind one bit.

It's almost like ... anecdata isn't trustworthy...

EDIT: downvoted for pointing out the hypocrisy.

~~~
salawat
Thank you. I think people discount the power of speaking out. Don't worry
about the negativity. Speak the truth, and it's all that can be asked of you.

~~~
tathougies
I'll never stop speaking the truth. Had a white professor in an immigration
history class attempt to discount my view of being an actual child of
immigrants by saying I had become a white person. The gaslighting of immigrant
experiences is real. Thanks for the support!

~~~
iron0013
lmao yeah thanks for sharing, it was totally pertinent to the point at hand

------
api
Nice to see this here. Maybe the "hacker" in HN is returning.

Wish I was in Seattle to go check it out. I love this kind of thing.

~~~
kf
...eh it took two dead versions of this story and multiple emails to the mods
for this to get unkilled and it’s still weighted off of the front page. So it
took serious effort and intention to front page a story over the power of flag
mods and because of weighting still barely got the discussion deserved. I
think a lot of people just must defacto flag things that aren’t about software
or business?

I would come back here more regularly if I knew that actual huge news would be
regularly discussed here, or if I thought interesting articles not about
coding had much of a shot.

As good writing about CHAZ keeps happening or the situation evolves I’ll
continue trying submissions.

------
kenneth
I am rather amused that the same group is simultaneously calling for the
tearing down of secessionist monuments and statues, while promoting a
secession of their own. The cognitive dissonance is real.

~~~
chimeracoder
> I am rather amused that the same group is simultaneously calling for the
> tearing down of secessionist monuments and statues, while promoting a
> secession of their own. The cognitive dissonance is real.

From the webpage:

> Fundamentally, CHAZ is an occupation of Capitol Hill, not an official
> declaration of independence.

They are fairly clear that their ultimate goal is neither secession or
independence. The area was abandoned by the police in a political move, and
CHAZ is occupying it as a statement of how they would like to see the city as
a whole run instead.

~~~
mcv
Not only that, but those secessionist statues being turn down, are about
people who lead a violent rebellion against the US in order to protect their
ability to enslave people.

This protest is quite the opposite in nearly every possible way.

------
rayhendricks
Walked though it yesterday, wearing a mask. The majority of people are also
wearing masks and seem to be peaceful. Mostly a bunch of protestors and people
milling about. There was one argument right by the speaker, but it didn’t look
violent. Here is a link to my video:
[https://photos.app.goo.gl/8kktcXopLDdFKbQP9](https://photos.app.goo.gl/8kktcXopLDdFKbQP9)
IMO it will last a month or two then engine will get bored and it will fizzle.

------
scarythoughts
Is assumption here that if you are a technical enthusiast and read this site,
you have to support whatever leftist phenomenon is happening? This has nothing
to do with technology at all.

------
11thEarlOfMar
It has reflections of the Summer of Love and 'Human Be Ins'. Instead of
racism, the common cause was the Vietnam War. Instead of CHAZ, the Haight
Ashbury.

From the descriptions of Seattleites (sorry) in the thread, it seems there may
be more to compare than contrast:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_of_Love](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_of_Love)

Have we been here before?

------
daenz
I live nearby but I haven't visited. I've been staying up on different
livestreams however. I would say it's a naive waste of time, but clearly it is
an outlet for people to feel creative and free, and there is some value in
that. I think the long term is that people who support it are going to look
back at it and cringe at some of the fantasies being played out.

~~~
SI_Rob
All the clubs, bars, and schools have been shuttered for months. That buildup
of stifled young adult socialization energy had to be dumped somewhere.

------
vsmatck
If anyone is interested in an unfiltered view of CHAZ I've been going down
there every day and filming. Here's a link to the first video in my playlist
about CHAZ.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJblgfCwWtU&list=PLlgnc9Wjog...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJblgfCwWtU&list=PLlgnc9WjogB67st9GXzit3YTlHxfoXgM-&index=25)

I can confirm that the media isn't accurately representing what's there. It
was a little crazy up until last Sunday (before the formation of CHAZ, right
before the police left). It's totally peaceful now. People are bringing their
families down there. I've even been there in the middle of the night and it's
fine.

------
growlist
Does anyone think this would not have been crushed without mercy if the
protestors were 'white supremacists'? Serious question.

The irony is that if these AZs were permitted it could give said
segregationists exactly what they had been after for decades.

~~~
dickjocke
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_Nati...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge)

Like this scenario in 2016 that ended when the last far-right occupiers of a
national wildlife refugee left after 6 weeks?.

~~~
AuryGlenz
That was the news story of the month. This has barely been talked about in
most of the media.

~~~
dickjocke
That isn't what OP was talking about, but to answer your separate question--in
Seattle you have unarmed people who pushed some concrete blocks into the
street, in Oregon you had well armed people occupying a federal building.

------
catacombs
Serious question: What's to stop Seattle Police or state authorities from
removing people from CHAZ? I wouldn't be surprised if there are city, state
and federal officials drawing up probable cause to shut it down.

~~~
rovolo
Protestors occupied the intersection of 11th and Pine (1 block from the police
station) for multiple nights prior to the police abandoning the precinct. The
police tried clearing people multiple nights with tear gas and flash-bangs,
but the images and video of clearing the protestors night after night became
politically unsavory. They probably won't try evicting people from the area
again because they didn't succeed politically the previous times they tried.

(Plus, tear gas would seep into the nearby residential buildings)

[https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/06/after-mayors-
spee...](https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/06/after-mayors-speech-on-
deescalation-police-making-strongest-show-of-force-yet-at-standoff-at-11th-
and-pine/#more-2067257258)

~~~
catacombs
> They probably won't try evicting people from the area again because they
> didn't succeed politically the previous times they tried.

Interesting. The city might not, but feds might try, as they probably don't
have much to lose.

~~~
golf1052
Both the governor and the mayor said they won't let the Feds try that.

~~~
catacombs
Wouldn't the feds just overrule them anyway?

~~~
rovolo
Do you think that the feds would win politically from overriding local
authorities to send in armed troops to evict thousands of people from a
glorified festival? There was a ton of push-back on the feds clearing out
sections of DC, and the feds have a lot more authority there.

Clearing out the area is fundamentally a political issue, so I think you need
to focus less on _who_ would clear out CHAZ and more on _how_ they would
justify their actions. The area is in a dense area and is easily accessible by
transit so tons of people have gone there in person. Plus, the local
establishment news has been visiting the area and taking pictures.

[https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/dubbed-a-
lawless-s...](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/dubbed-a-lawless-
state-by-some-the-chaz-or-chop-seattles-newest-neighborhood-tries-to-create-
its-own-narrative/)

Whoever clears it would need to create "probable cause" as you mentioned
initially. Our police chief has been trying to justify clearing the area by
saying: 1) business are getting extorted (no evidence) 2) assaults and rapes
have increased (the crime blotter doesn't support this) 3) there are armed
guards doing ID checks at the barricades (people can just walk in to the area
and tons of people have visited. There have been a few people with long guns
hanging out, but my understanding is that they leave shortly because other
people tell them it's not a good look). So far, none of those accusations have
stuck:

[https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/seattle-area-
prote...](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/seattle-area-protests-
updates-for-thursday-june-11/)

------
sirgg0119
Everythings peaceful... for now. What happens when something gets out of hand.
It's always easiest in the beginning when everyone's on the same page. Given
time disagreements are bound to flare up.

------
rexarex
Reminds me of Christiania
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania)

------
jhallenworld
"Autonomous Zone" is a reference to this book by Hakim Bey:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone)

It's an interesting read..

[https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/hakim-bey-t-a-z-
the-...](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/hakim-bey-t-a-z-the-
temporary-autonomous-zone-ontological-anarchy-poetic-terrorism)

------
dgellow
Now that’s an impressive achievement:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CapHillAutonomousZone/comments/h7km...](https://www.reddit.com/r/CapHillAutonomousZone/comments/h7kmha/beautiful_black_lives_matter_painting_in_chaz/)

“Black lives matter” art painting in the street.

Splendid!

~~~
dgellow
I don’t understand why would someone downvote this comment... anyone willing
to explain the issue with it? It’s just a link to great art made at CHAZ, I
don’t see how that can be taken negatively.

------
tomcam
Have all the business owners whose storefronts are now covered with graffiti
ceded their properties to the group voluntarily?

------
eplanit
"Within the self governed blocks you can find food vendors, daily marches,
public film screenings and community councils hosted throughout the day".

Performance Art, I guess. Reads like a story of children building a
treehouse/fort.

~~~
quantummkv
To me this whole thing reads more like the plot and gameplay of the next Far
Cry game. What a time to be alive.

------
throwaway98asfd
Interesting and relevant speech from Abe Lincoln:
[http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/lyceum....](http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/lyceum.htm)

------
kf
Bumping this towards front page discussion, the Wikipedia link on this got
flag killed from the front page.

------
subsubzero
If you are trying to start a respectable state at least spell correctly, it
really makes people not take it seriously:

>siezed!! by anarchists, BLM supporters and other protestors who have since
transformed it into a unverisal!!

~~~
ChristianBundy
> anarchists

> state

Why would you think that anarchists are trying to start a state?

------
jacobush
I wondered if it's inspired by Christiania?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania)

It's been a thing half a century now.

~~~
dayofthedaleks
Sure, but also Paris in 1871, and Barcelona in 1936.

------
oh_sigh
If this is going to be anything like the autonomous zones I've visited in
Berlin and Copenhagen, it is going to be filled with graffiti, drug dealing,
and not much else in terms of public use.

------
chaoticmass
Looks like my employer was quick to add this site to the block list of sites
we can't access using the company network.

------
sharemywin
According to a June 10 article by City Journal, hip hop artist Raz Simone acts
as "co-leader and enforcer" of the Zone, while former mayoral candidate
Nikkita Oliver formulates the commune's political aims.[24] However, according
to Simone, the Zone has no central leadership, with all residents serving as
leaders

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone)

~~~
ciarannolan
I've lived in a neighborhood with an "enforcer". Let's just say most of us
were happy when the police showed up from time to time.

~~~
kf
Living in a neighborhood in Oakland CA with no enforcer and annoyingly blatant
property crime, I’m willing to give an enforcer a try cause it’s not like
people trust the police here or that they even come when you call them.

~~~
tomschlick
Then stop electing the same people who de-prioritize prosecuting property
crime.

I'm amazed by SF and close areas utter disregard for what is normal crime
wise. Most people in most cities don't have a story about their car window
being smashed in and rummaged through. Every thread I see here / on reddit
about SF someone mentions that its completely normal and should be expected
there.

~~~
kf
...living in evolving anarchy has benefits though. I suspect that San
Francisco’s open air drug market with dangerously cheap methamphetamine is one
of the dirty secrets behind the engine of creation of Silicon Valley.

~~~
dilap
Interesting theory; from what I've seen though, it's fueled more by Adderral
scrips.

~~~
kf
There’s lots of that too. My theory implies that a bunch of people that say
they’re taking adderall are actually doing a little meth before they get on
the Google bus because it’s cheaper and easier to get.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
More years ago than I care to admit, I suspected that Intel's Multibus II
design showed evidence of the use of "nose candy" in SV...

------
elric
Any chance of this turning into something like Copenhagen's "Freetown
Christiania"?

------
erulabs
I have mixed feelings on my own reaction to this. A huge part of me loves this
- and supports a huge chunk of their demands. Then they talk about free
housing and rent control... and I can feel myself shy away. I can imagine how
other moderates / economics students / actual conservatives might react. It
pains me to have to split my values. Do you support good intentions paired
with policies you believe will cause more harm than good - or do you side with
policies you agree with even though it makes you an “enemy” to the peer
culture you yearn to belong to. Republicans won’t listen to comments about
open borders, and Democrats won’t listen to comments about the issues with
nationalization.

This has been my political problem my whole life. Agree with old white boomers
on tax policy and with young radicals on immigration policy. Far too often my
brain says “keep your mouth shut” - “save it for other Econ nerds” - and I’m
beginning to think I’m no longer OK with that conclusion. Support to Seattle!

------
andred14
good for you Capitol Hill your friends in Vancouver support you :)

------
telaelit
I love CHAZ so much, I hope it becomes a national trend.

If city councils would defund the police and use the money for actual good
things then we wouldn’t have this problem of police brutality and police being
above the law. But no, the police need to buy tanks ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

------
gorgoiler
I hadn’t heard of CHAZ until now.

 _Zona_ , _Galaxy News Radio_ , _Radio Free Europe_... so many cultural
touchstones for CHAZ to riff on. It must be a designer’s utopia!

It also reminds me of _Daily Mail Island_ but at another end of the political
hyperspectrum.

------
renegading
Is this comparable to the Paris Commune?

------
Drunkfoowl
I'm sure there are a lot of folks here who are either living, or have been to
Seattle/Cap Hill.

Politics aside for a moment, this is the pinnacle of Cap Hill IMO. Good on
them, as long as they stay safe and try not to get too culty.

------
malandrew
Two fascinating observations I've seen others have point out that are worth
pondering:

\- One of the first things they did after seizing six city blocks is setting
up a border and controlling who enters the CHAZ

\- How would the media have reacted if right-wing groups had commandeered
several city blocks of any American city?

This is super interesting to watch unfold.

~~~
yborg
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_Nati...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge)

~~~
thisiszilff
The Malheur National Wildlife Refuge doesn't appear to be in the middle of a
city.

------
danharaj
"...

The demonstration, an irregular event created by the demonstrators,
nevertheless takes place near the city centre, intended for very different
uses. The demonstrators interrupt the regular life of the streets they march
through or of the open spaces they fill. They ‘cut off these areas, and, not
yet having the power to occupy them permanently, they transform them into a
temporary stage on which they dramatise the power they still lack.

The demonstrators’ view of the city surrounding their stage also changes. By
demonstrating, they manifest a greater freedom and independence – a greater
creativity, even although the product is only symbolic – than they can ever
achieve individually or collectively when pursuing their regular lives. In
their regular pursuits they only modify circumstances; by demonstrating they
symbolically oppose their very existence to circumstances.

...

Either authority must abdicate and allow the crowd to do as it wishes: in
which case the symbolic suddenly becomes real, and, even if the crowd’s lack
of organisation and preparedness prevents it from consolidating its victory,
the event demonstrates the weakness of authority. Or else authority must
constrain and disperse the crowd with violence: in which case the undemocratic
character of such authority is publicly displayed. The imposed dilemma is
between displayed weakness and displayed authoritarianism.

..."

[https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/isj/1968/no03...](https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/isj/1968/no034/berger.htm)

~~~
TomMarius
This seems like a false dilemma. There is a third option: Do not tolerate
crimes but otherwise let it be.

------
smitty1e
Glad to see the #Occupy franchise has a new installment out.

------
kf
So my question: will Trump quickly and lethally invoke the Insurrection act?
Will the Joint Chiefs comply or create a constitutional crisis?

If this isn’t shut down quickly, I predict we see a national movement like
this by Juneteenth.

~~~
Trasmatta
His threat to use the Insurrection Act last week was one of the most unpopular
acts of his entire presidency, and directly led to the major rebukes from
people like Mattis. So I doubt it.

~~~
kf
While that’s a fair point, this situation is a more literal insurrection than
the previously seen protests and taking of goods from stores. CHAZ has
declared their independence from the USA and historically that kind of thing
is really not allowed. Has Trump so thoroughly lost control that secession is
legal now?

~~~
Taikonerd
I think the Seattle Police are thinking, "these are a bunch of kids who want
to play-act _La Revolución._ If we just ignore them for a week, they'll get
bored or disillusioned and go home."

So the police aren't going to storm the barricades -- they figure they won't
have to.

~~~
gen220
This basically happens in Berlin every year on the May Day
celebrations/marches.

The police let the anarchists do whatever they want, within certain
constraints (no injuring people, constrained to certain neighborhoods), and
the anarchists only do it on that day of the year. Sometimes there are
conflicts between the police and the rioters, but it never escalates to huge
conflicts any more.

It’s a display of mutual respect for authority, and it allows the radical
groups to blow off some steam, while campaigning for progress.

I know this idea makes no sense to law and order -type people, but it’s an
ancient human idea to ritualize and sanctify the behaviors you want to
discourage or control.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Day_in_Kreuzberg](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Day_in_Kreuzberg)

~~~
programmarchy
This is a fitting explanation, and I think developing these kinds of rituals
further will help heal some of the divides in this country.

Your last paragraph reminded me of Eric Gans’ “Originary Hypothesis” [1]:

> Gans hypothesizes that language originates in "an aborted gesture of
> appropriation," which signifies the desired object as sacred and which
> memorializes the birth of language, serving as the basis for rituals which
> recreate the originary event symbolically. The originary sign serves to
> defer the mimetic violence threatening the group, hence Gans's capsule
> definition of culture as "the deferral of violence through representation."

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Gans#The_Originary_Hypo...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Gans#The_Originary_Hypothesis)

~~~
gen220
It’s definitely not an idea that originates with me! :)

I think I got it from a German Literature class. The professor had us read
some formational texts, and one of them was a theory for the establishment of
religion, written by some German 20th Century thinker. I can’t find the source
now, but it was probably a pretty mainstream one, for all you internet sleuths
out there.

He tried to put forward an evolutionary theory of religion. Basically, a tribe
would come into conflict and children would kill their parents as a result. To
try and prevent the same thing from happening to themselves, the children
invented rituals that they taught to their children, so that they could
control and direct their violence away from the parents. Instead of killing
people, they would kill effigies made to look like people. Eventually, the
children associate the effigies with their parents. But they like their
parents, so they leave out the whole killing part when they teach it to
_their_ kids, who come to worship the effigies. They then kill animals instead
of people. And so on. It was a really interesting exercise of rationalism!

If someone can find the source for me, I’ll give them my 2 internet points :)

Edit: I think it was Violence and the Sacred by Rene Girard.

~~~
programmarchy
Ah, yep! Gans’ work is heavily based on Girard.

------
blackrock
LOL. This will not end well.

When will they declare independence? That’s when the fun will really begin.

~~~
vangelis
I doubt anything will happen. The smart move would be to let it fizzle out.

------
alkibiades
send in the 101st airborne

[https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/seattle-autonomous-
zon...](https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/seattle-autonomous-zone-
business-antifa)

------
aaron695
They already have a warlord, they aren't just LARPing

[https://nypost.com/2020/06/12/raz-simone-accused-of-
acting-l...](https://nypost.com/2020/06/12/raz-simone-accused-of-acting-like-
warlord-in-seattles-chaz/)

------
throwawaysea
It is plainly illegal. A bunch of criminals have barricaded several city
blocks that do not belong to them and barricaded shared public infrastructure
(roads). These are crimes. They should be apprehended, charged, and sentenced.
This is very straightforward. Either the laws exist and they are enforced
equally upon everyone or we do not have a functioning society.

~~~
ahelwer
You break the law many times per day, we all do. Enforcement of law is always
discretionary and thus political.

~~~
deathgrips
Do you mind if I put up a barricade around your house so cops can't come near
us? :)

~~~
ahelwer
Don't threaten me with a good time!

