
On holy wars, and a plea for peace - telotortium
https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/23/212
======
bassman9000
_They make it clear; they signed on to participate in a meritocracy with
reputation rewards, and they think that is being taken way from them._

[https://postmeritocracy.org/](https://postmeritocracy.org/)

That is exactly what the people pushing the new CoC are claiming.

~~~
throwanem
Which of the people signed on to that manifesto are also arguing in support of
the Linux kernel CoC?

~~~
throwaway5250
It seems likely that most or all of the signatories would be in favor of the
new CoC. (Perhaps some don't feel that it goes far enough.)

Given the author's toxic Twitter comments, I'm suspicious of the motivations
here.

~~~
throwanem
Which toxic Twitter comments are those? I'm having some difficulty finding
them.

~~~
throwaway5250
Example:
[https://twitter.com/coralineada/status/1042249983590838272](https://twitter.com/coralineada/status/1042249983590838272)

This pretty much rules out "good faith".

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amaccuish
Interesting read, but I can't see how the CoC changes the "telos", if anyone
can help? I.e. from my point of view, having a CoC doesn't change the end
goal, since the end goal was never, not having a CoC, and the end goal was
never a meritocracy, it was create a kernel (nor was it to _have_ a CoC, again
it's an implementation detail). So I'd say, in relation to this post, the
question is, does the CoC bring "us" closer/further to our "telos". I would
argue that it does, but of course some disagree.

Further, there's the argument that aslong as something doesn't hinder the
"telos", and it has a positive impact on the community, why not do so?

~~~
throwanem
An excellent point. Here's where esr palms the card, my emphasis:

"...[Accusing anti-CoC community members of sexism and the like] can only
inflame their sense that the group telos is being hijacked. _They make it
clear; they signed on to participate in a meritocracy with reputation rewards,
and they think that is being taken [away] from them._ "

Is the _telos_ to produce a kernel, or is the _telos_ to "participate in a
meritocracy with reputation rewards"? ESR's piece gives much overt
consideration to the question of "what is the telos?", but even granting that
that question is not itself disingenuous in the context of LKML, the quoted
passage somewhat deftly sneaks in an answer of its own, between all the many
waves of hands about how "[that] last paragraph may sound like I have strayed
from neutrality into making a value claim, but not really" and the like.

I suspect a large number of people with commits in the kernel trunk would be
surprised to learn that they're _really_ there for the meritocracy, rather
than for the work...

~~~
Viliam1234
Reputational awards are the standard "payment" for producing free software.
Removing them reduces the number of people willing to work on the software,
which reduces the probability of the software being completed successfully.

This is a bit like asking "is your goal to bake bread, or to use flour?", and
when the baker says "to bake bread, obviously", replying "so you don't mind if
we just throw away all your flour, right?". I would side with the baker who
says that people who go around throwing away the flour are probably doing it
to sabotage baking bread, not because they want to improve the quality of
bread.

~~~
throwanem
Who is suggesting that reputational rewards for merged kernel pulls be
removed? Or that that's even possible? A merged pull remains a merged pull.
Accepted contributions remain accepted contributions. The concept of the
"post-meritocracy manifesto" isn't that the value of contribution should
change. It's not saying that solid kernel commits don't count any more. It's
saying that writing solid documentation and dealing effectively with people
count too.

~~~
Viliam1234
> It's saying that writing solid documentation and dealing effectively with
> people count too.

The Linux Documentation Project existed long before these people came. And if
"dealing effectively with people" is what we currently observe, I'd say no
thanks.

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throwanem
I think I understand why this is sinking, but I'm tempted to think perhaps it
should not. On the other hand, I don't know whether this community can any
longer discuss such matters with cool heads all around. Or whether any
community can.

~~~
noobermin
I think it can. On the other hand, this site isn't really the community more
than it is the "peanut gallery".

~~~
throwanem
"This community" meaning HN, not LKML.

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LyndsySimon
I love this article. It's exactly what I've been trying to communicate, but
have been unable to nail down so precisely.

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Canada
Isn't this something that major contributors should decide among themselves?

~~~
noobermin
Which is why it was posted to the lkml I suppose.

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naringas
If I knew anything about stock markets, I'd argue that it is a good time to
invest in micro $oft; however I have never had enough money to even bother
learning about that kind of thing.

