
Indie developers cannot self-publish on Xbox One - jwallaceparker
http://www.polygon.com/2013/5/22/4355306/indie-developers-cannot-self-publish-on-xbox-one
======
mtgx
It's ok, Sony seems to be willing to take them:

<http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2013/04/sony-indies/>

So far everything I've seen makes PS4 a clear choice over Xbox One as a
console, although I'm still curious what Valve has in mind, but it doesn't
look like they are in a hurry to announce anything so could be another year or
two of waiting.

~~~
nthitz
Funny. So far everything I've seen makes XO a clear choice for me over the
PS4. To each their own. Not to say, I don't want Indie developers, but that is
not really a factor I even consider when making a purchase.

~~~
batgaijin
Dude, a _lot_ of games are going to start being 'indie'.

The programmers are smart - I foresee a lot of good programmers going into
either middleware or kickstarter.

The next gen consoles, with their power, are going to bring dynamic animation
and procedural 3D environments and numerous innovative areas so that small
teams can unshackle themselves from the legions of artists necessary today.

~~~
seivan
I agree. Lower operation costs, no need to pay all those worthless sack of
shit suits and manager cunts.

90% of paid salaries will be to people who contribute to sound, code, graphics
and other things that is shipped.

~~~
mkilling
I'm starting to get tired of this 'we don't need no suits' talk on HN. You
need a marketing strategy, regardless of how good your game is.

Publishers have the know how and capital to devise and implement such a
strategy. Don't make the mistake to assume that they are just there to take a
cut of your profits without putting any value on the table.

~~~
tomjen3
You don't need a marketing strategy, you need somebody who knows pr, since you
can't afford to pay for ads anyway.that person shouldn't be in a suit.

~~~
icebraining
Marketing is way more than just ads and PR.

------
kevingadd
It's funny that Microsoft feels XBox Live Indie Games was such a mistake and
seems to think that indies did so much harm to them, given that indies
generally feel like Microsoft has been intentionally harming them from the
start.

They basically left that system to rot without supervision, and then it did.
Where's the surprise in that? It's like they decided to greenlight it only so
they could sabotage it and use it as proof that they don't have any reason to
work with indies. It's incredibly stupid given that some of the best indie
XBox Live Arcade exclusives (or former exclusives) were all built using XNA -
Bastion, Fez, Dust - but they screwed those devs as hard as they could too,
despite the fact that those games were _partially funded by deals with
Microsoft_!

~~~
gamblor956
Of those 3, only Fez was "screwed" by Microsoft, and that was Fish's own fault
--he released a buggy game without adequate QA...and a buggier patch with even
worse QA...and wouldn't (but could afford to) pay for the follow-up patch that
would supposedly have fixed the bugs he didn't fix twice before.

But yeah, it is an incredibly short-sighted decision for Microsoft to
eliminate the Indie program. Some of the best new games/studios rose up
through that--using C#, DirectX, and other parts of the MS toolchain--but it
looks like the next generation of indies will be learning the PS4/OpenGL
toolchain instead.

~~~
sdfaf
>>but it looks like the next generation of indies will be learning the
PS4/OpenGL toolchain instead.

Thank God! I really do not want to spend any time learning Microsoft specific
frameworks/APIs. I'm already familiar OpenGL and I rather spend my time
working on the game itself rather then having to learn new APIs.

~~~
Impossible
PS4 does not use OpenGL as it's graphics API, and doesn't even support PSGL
(the higher level, OpenGL ES 1.1 like library that PS3 supported.) This is a
rumor that's going to persist for the lifetime of the system.

That said most indies are moving to using Unity 3D, so as long as Unity
support for PS4 is good and licensing costs aren't too high, the low level
graphics API of PS4 won't matter.

~~~
pjmlp
Open source geeks like to spread the myth that Microsoft consoles are the only
ones not supporting OpenGL.

Given that the games industry is very hostile to open source and very few
geeks have access to console development kits, it is no wonder the myth
persists.

------
gamble
The whole design of the One seems mired in the past. No substantial changes to
the developer relationship, no acknowledgement of the app market, a
subscription service to go online, DRM and used game fees to protect the
existing retail model, etc.

And in exchange... a cable box? Will people even have cable in five years?

It's like they set out to design the next Xbox without acknowledging that
anything other than hardware has changed since 2005.

~~~
Karunamon
Worth mentioning, the "used game fees" thing is highly disputed right now.
There are different people within Microsoft and within official channels who
are saying different things.

~~~
chc
Do you have any links to anyone clearly disputing it? Because I haven't seen
any. The closest I've seen is a guy saying, effectively, "Of course we
wouldn't do that! Unless it's a used game. We don't want to talk about that
case yet."

~~~
Karunamon
I dug these up from Facebook:

<https://twitter.com/XboxSupport3/status/336924786410278912>

<https://twitter.com/MrJonty/status/336924553848684544>

Newer, Major Nelson has come and said that there is "no confirmation" on
anything other than the ability to trade and resell games.

<http://majornelson.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-and-used-games/>

------
twidlit
This means that most of XBLA type/calibre is still going to happen (90% or
100% of XBLA had publishers)

This move is more for quality control (plus data on the lackluster downloads
of Xbox Indie games) rather than hatred for indies. Its still short sighted
but it would also make Xbox One deal with less cruft of games, thereby
avoiding the signal-to-noise being bad (remember all games are not silo'ed
anymore.) making the game library browsing experience just generally more
appealing to the mainstream customer. I doubt these demographic will miss Xbox
indie-type games, heck I don't think they even visited that tab.

But I do like the intense focus on games by the PS4 camp more. Just happy that
Xbox One and PS4 are now going in totally divergent paths.

~~~
qompiler
I agree, this is more about quality control which Sony has been enforcing
since PS3 as well, which funny enough was also called indie unfriendly for not
having a similar system like the XBLA/XBLIG!

------
Osiris
I'm honestly quite surprised given how important independent games have been
for iOS and Android.

I was honestly expecting both players to provide app stores where developers
could submit applications, whether games or not, possibly giving them an
advantage over the other platform by having more apps, better development
tools, etc.

~~~
_lex
Problem is the difference in the budget to bring a great game to market. It's
unlikely that a tiny team can bring a great console game to market, but that
happens all the time on mobile.

But I agree - it seems to make sense to make it easier to develop games (aka
simpler, cheaper, better-designed tooling that does more heavy lifting), and
add an appstore.

This is Oya's approach, and the big problem with this approach is that it
doesn't really invite developers with deep pockets : developers who can
actually pay to 1)develop a quality product, 2) advertise their product across
mainstream media - which will drive demand of your platform.

And the final problem is that it'll be way less profitable for Oya: console
games are so overpriced that they subsidize the consoles themselves. But apps
can't really subsidize the iPhone - they're a low-margin business.

I think the real solution is to give away both the consoles and the games, but
charge a monthly subscription, and divvy it up based on engagement in games.
It'll be the new cable tv: $25 for basic service (you only get access to 20%
of hot games, but all regular games), and $45 for premium access to
everything, with netflix and hulu plus thrown in for free.

~~~
jiggy2011
I don't know if that's strictly true, there's a number of indie titles that
have done well on console and are the work of small 1-3 man teams.

Super Meat Boy, Braid and Fez are the canonical examples but there are no
doubt many others.

OTOH if you let any old shit onto your store then you do get a lemon market
effect which seems to have happened with mobile gaming.

~~~
_lex
Those are rare successes, but if you look at the hits on the appstore, they're
much more uniformly indie.

------
soemarko
This is a super confusing move from Microsoft.

First, don't they want indie game developers to jump to Windows phones and
tablets? I'd presume Microsoft could (if not already) let developers to code
once and publish everywhere that speaks Microsoft, no?

Second, Walking Dead game was crowned 2012 of the year by many publications,
and my personal game of the year Journey, both are technically indie?
Shouldn't that mattered?

Sigh, as usual, I'll just vote with my wallet.

~~~
Lewisham
Also, Walking Dead's episodic format was at risk by Microsoft's XBLA release
policy, where publishers are given slots that they can have, and you don't get
any more (think like airstrip use at an airport). So they had to end-run it by
having each episode as DLC, rather than getting a new announcement and a
stand-alone program.

Microsoft's old policies were workable but obnoxious. Instead of opening
things up, they're making it worse. Nuts.

~~~
JackpotDen
The reason we have this is that apple have proven you can get away with the
walled garden. Now it's microsoft's turn to do it.

NB : they are both doing bad things.

------
lucid00
The thing that bothers me the most about this is that Microsoft pretty much
confirmed yesterday that the XBox One is running some form of the Windows
Runtime.

(Source: [http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-runs-three-
opera...](http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-runs-three-operating-
systems/))

So if I want to make an app work across Windows RT, Windows 8, Windows Phone 8
and the XBox One, I have to submit three separate apps that are all coded the
same way, to three different app stores.

Why couldn't Microsoft just bring the Windows 8 marketplace to XBox One and
Windows Phone 8? That alone would fix the indie self-publishing problem and in
turn make the XBox One more appealing.

~~~
wmf
Mouse vs. touch vs. controller is one thing. MS would probably also like to
avoid buggy apps that have only been tested on one platform. WORA has never
really worked, so if you want to release your app on four platforms you _need_
to test it four times. Compared to the testing, submitting to four app stores
seems like a small cost.

~~~
lucid00
"so if you want to release your app on four platforms you need to test it four
times."

Wouldn't submitting 4 separate apps require the same amount of attention (if
not more)?

------
Delenda
I'm actually fairly confused right now... hoping someone here can enlighten
me.

"[..] Microsoft has confirmed that it will release no new versions of its XNA
game development toolset, which all Xbox Live Indie Games are developed in."

The system is not backwards compatible, because it apparently is a rebuild
from the very core. The old code that drove previous games will not run on the
new system, and anything being written for it must be written or ported to
whatever the new languages and requirements are.

If they don't publish an update to the toolkit that lets indie developers
write for the system, doesn't that essentially mean there can't be any indie
development for the system? It looks like they're basically saying we'll keep
things just as locked down as they used to be, oh and also we won't be
providing the necessary tool to even begin working on our system. (Unless they
intend to release a new dev-kit and just didn't see any reason to note that?)

~~~
noct
Rebuilt from the core isn't very specific; the architecture has switched from
PowerPC to x86. There are some solutions (emulation, secondary chipset), but
none that aren't difficult and expensive.

As XNA is .NET based, they would only need to port the runtime libraries to
the new native APIs.

They dropped support for the only SDK they offered that produced forward-
compatible games.

Unless they announce a new form of XBLIG, the only way for indies to release
games for the One will be via a publisher, and even with a distribution-only
deal, it means MS is effectively enforcing a tax on indies that's paid out to
AAAs.

------
mindstab
<http://www.ouya.tv/>

It's a dev kit itself as well and its android and yeah, they'll publish all
indie stuff. :)

~~~
adregan
Several indie game makers I've talked to are really excited about this for all
these reasons + the low barrier of entry ($99).

------
fernandotakai
Ok, so this article from polygon links to an article on shacknews[1].

But the article on shacknews uses an interview from 2011[2] that's talking
about xbox live on the 360, not on the xbox one.

We can say that if microsoft didn't say anything about this policy, it will
stay - but at the same time, we don't know because nothing up-to-date was
said.

Also, the article from shacklenews uses an article from gamesutra[3] to say
"Xbox Live Indie Games are exempt from that policy, but that marketplace isn't
necessary seen as viable."

But from the same article "[..] at least for mid and high-level performers,
XBLIG is becoming a viable platform for hobbyists and single-man shops to make
some cash and get their game seen"

[1] [http://www.shacknews.com/article/79309/xbox-one-wont-
allow-i...](http://www.shacknews.com/article/79309/xbox-one-wont-allow-indies-
to-self-publish-games)

[2] <http://www.psnstores.com/2011/10/interview-eufloria/>

[3]
[http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26932/InDepth_Xbox_Live_I...](http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26932/InDepth_Xbox_Live_Indie_Games_Sales_For_2009_Plus_Some_Perspective.php)

------
te_chris
Sony arent just making it easy to publish, according to this
([http://blogs.unity3d.com/2013/03/21/unity-coming-to-sony-
con...](http://blogs.unity3d.com/2013/03/21/unity-coming-to-sony-consoles-
this-year/)) they're actively making it easy to develop for their ecosystem,
meanwhile MS are killing XNA. At least those C# game devs will have somewhere
to go with their skills...

------
drawkbox
This is truly strange considering what has happened on mobile appstores that
believe in a free market. They have benefitted heavily from it. Lots of new
great companies like Halfbrick, Firemint and Rovio might not have happened.

At the most basic level they will lose lots of hardware sales as the app/game
development that surrounds mobile appstores sells lots and lots of hardware.

Ballmer's scream should be changed to (Approved) Developers, (Approved)
Developers, (Approved) Developers since Microsoft knows better what is good
and what isn't than an open gaming market. The top down ivory tower
controlling nature of consoles still seems to exist in the Xbone.

------
jiggy2011
This is kinda strange. I know that the indie market on 360 wasn't all that
great. But the way they are billing this thing as an overall living room
system rather than just a game system makes me think that there could be great
potential for more casual games as well as actual applications.

------
ianstallings
I'd take all the supposed garbage in the indie dev section to get the gems
that appear there from time to time, like Cthulhu's Revenge or Miner Dig Deep.
I spent hours playing those games and they cost me a few bucks max. I do not
understand this move.

------
skc
I think there's a bit of lazy thinking here in these comments. There are XBox
branded indie games on Windows Phone and Windows 8.

Just because MS isn't publically saying anything doesn't justify jumping to
this thread title's conclusion

------
kvb
Even on the PS4 indies need to be invited to publish, though, right?

~~~
wmf
It sounds like if Sony invites you then at least you get to keep the money
from your game. If MS invites you then a middleman publisher takes a slice of
your revenue.

~~~
teamonkey
If you don't have an external publisher then Microsoft or Sony must agree to
be the publisher on XBLA or PSN. I think on both consoles every title gets
assigned a product manager, for example.

------
neovive
My favorite Xbox game for years has been Castle Crashers which I assume is an
indie game. Will indie games previously purchased on Xbox Live run on Xbox
One?

~~~
EtienneK
No.

[http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-not-backwards-
com...](http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-not-backwards-compatible-
with-360-discs-xbla-purchases/)

------
teamyuri
Well, that's stupid.

~~~
bionsuba
I can see that you are new around here and I just wanted to fill you in on why
you are being downvoted. Comments like yours add nothing to the discussion and
the level of discourse in this topic would be exactly the same if it was
removed. No one is disagreeing with you, we just want some substance.

