
My 'smart drugs' nightmare - pmoriarty
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35091574
======
anaphor
"The following day, a train journey presented what I expected to be a perfect
opportunity to get some work done with the aid of a smart pill. I was wrong.

I became distracted - more so than normal. While the drug made me focus, it
was on the wrong things - such as playing video games on my smartphone."

That's because of something called the Yerkes-Dodson curve which basically
says if your body is not aroused enough then your performance decreases, and
if it's overly aroused then you can't focus on anything. This applies to well-
learned tasks or other things that depend mostly on cognitive abilities
(differently shaped for different types of tasks). It sounds like the author
didn't need to take modafinil because he was already good at concentrating on
things and taking it just put him on the far end of the curve and destroyed
his performance.

~~~
peteretep
Perhaps. I find Modafinil makes me slightly obsessive about _anything_. If I
take it while procrastinating then I get really caught up in procrastination
tasks. If I take it and force myself to start working straight away, great
forces come to my aid.

~~~
randycupertino
What is the difference between modafinil vs adderall?

~~~
peteretep
The one time I took adderall I didn't feel any different, but there were
several points when I was explaining my world domination plans where the guy
who gave it to me interjected with "that's the adderall talking". Looking
back, the plans were somewhat manic.

------
genericresponse
Man takes prescription drug for the first time. He discovers that he has most
of the side effects and does not like his experience.

News at 11

~~~
exolymph
Yup, basically. Headline was way overstated.

------
idlewords
I've noticed a kind of "hangover" effect from taking modafinil, where if I
take a dose one day, I'll wake up unusually early the next day, feeling alert.
But my concentration will be shot.

What happens is that I don't get enough sleep, and feel the secondary effects
of that even though the fatigue is still masked by the drug. The fix is easy
enough - just reminding myself to sleep more. I've found it's not difficult to
get to sleep on the drug despite not feeling sleepy at all.

That said, the stuff is not a superpower pill. It affects different people
differently, it affects you differently on different days, it can make you
fixate on random tasks (like the author mentions) and if you're anxious about
something, modafinil will make you spin and spin about it.

Works great for housecleaning, though.

~~~
peteretep
It's interesting to see how everyone's mileage varies. I don't get the
hangover - in fact, if I take it on a Monday, I find the solid work I put in
tends to keep motivating me throughout the week. I do forget to eat with it,
and that can cause its own problems. I've had run-ins with serious anxiety,
but not found modafinil to contribute to that.

------
byuu
Video: "the drug is definitely working because I've been lying in bed for an
hour, and I just can't get to sleep."

An _hour_?? Amateur. It takes me 2-4 hours every night to fall asleep, no
matter how tired I am when I lay down. And then I wake up 3-4 hours later, and
then fall asleep again after another 30 or so minutes. Been that way for as
long as I can remember.

So yeah, I'm always tired during the day. Was starting to affect job
performance, and things to help sleep (eg melatonin, no blue light or caffeine
before bed, etc) weren't helping. So I tried modafinil myself, as well as
armodafinil. The latter's much nicer. But neither are any kind of miracle
drug.

I don't get any headaches from it, but I do notice my palms sweat a lot more,
my appetite decreases a bit, my joint paints are amplified significantly, and
it's easier to stay awake. But it's not like being wide awake. It's still
clear that I'm mentally worn out. I'm not really sure if this is an atypical
result, but I can't really see how this is a very good "study drug" given
that. It is a boost, definitely, but it's a very tiny one, like ~10-15%.

I also build up a tolerance surprisingly fast. I can't use it more than two
days in a week. Thankfully, the tolerance fades pretty quickly as well.

Also, to anyone who tries it, be sure you stay away from caffeinated beverages
while on it. This stuff seems to amplify caffeine's effects or something, and
it's quite unpleasant. A cop of coffee plus 200mg of modafinil's about
equivalent to taking two caffeine tablets for me.

Of course, you probably won't be able to get it. Doctors are _incredibly_
stingy with prescribing this, and even _if_ they do, the US brands are around
$1000 - $1300 per month.

~~~
rorykoehler
Have you tried cannabis?

~~~
mercer
While it might work, I've read that while cannabis helps you fall asleep, it's
actually often not conducive to 'good' sleep. This has also been the
experience of a number of people I know. Lack of deep sleep, waking up in the
middle of the night, etc.

Perhaps it's different for different people, and perhaps this is only a
problem if you smoke too much though. I'm not sure.

------
alrs
Taking Modafinil for funzies is a bad idea, but this doesn't rise to the level
of "nightmare."

Unless you have nightmares about developing a rash and getting a poor night's
sleep.

~~~
mapt
The skin disorder is in fact nightmare-fuel, but it's extraordinarily rare and
the one suspected case within the trial was probably simply chance.

"Estimates of the background incidence rate for these serious skin reactions
in the general population range between 1 to 2 cases per million-person
years."

[http://www.rxlist.com/provigil-drug/warnings-
precautions.htm](http://www.rxlist.com/provigil-drug/warnings-precautions.htm)

------
rdlecler1
I've been prescribed for ADD medication for the past 19 years and have tried a
variety of them including Ritalin, Aderrall, Mondifinal, Concerta, Vyvanse,
and Strattera.

People react differently to different medications and more than likely his
experience was an outlier.

For me, strattera was like a sleeping pill that out me down for an entire
weekend. Ritalin spikes quickly and gives you a rush. On Ritalin, everything
was intensely interesting and in the most boating classes I would be on the
edge of my seat and the professor couldn't talk fast enough.

But it's also easy to get focused on the wrong thing and run off on some
tangent in all the excitement, like when you're supposed to be studying for an
exam (I bet I can show that P=NP). The first time I took a full dosage I had
got a headache, which I attributed to a new increase in blood flow. Ritalin
also tended to cause insomnia.

Adderral greatly suppresses appetite and tends to cause hyper focus and
hypertension, but is also the least noticeable unless dosage is very high.

Modifinal didnt feel as effective or as clean as adderral. Given the choice
between an energy drink (blue sugar free monster) or modifinal, I'd take the
energy drink for efficacy.

For the most part I always come back to adderral. The major gain is the
absence of fatigue and the appetite suppression is a nice side effect that's
probably helped me stay slimmer than others my age. The biggest problem is
hyper focus, and this seems to be quite common. Hyper focus is great when you
need to study, read, and get work done. When I was in university I could code
for 14-16 hours a day for weeks. The problem is that you can't easily turn it
off. Over time I found myself losing my quick footed sociability. In fact I
feel that my vocabulary may have atrophied over that period, and words are no
longer as readily available.

For me, net-net the benefits have far out weighed the costs. However I've
scaled back my dossage considerably over the years (although a sugar-free
Monster energy drink seems to have a long lasting amplifying effect) and every
few months I'll let my prescription lapse and go on a holiday until I feel I'm
slipping into unproductive ways.

------
alexandercrohde
Anecdote: I also experimented with modafinil and found that though it made me
more energetic physically, it was just as likely to distract me as it was to
help me focus.

Upon reflection about how poorly sleep/wakefulness/daydreaming is understood,
I decided that I didn't want to guinea-pig myself with biological forces out
of my depth.

------
MicroBerto
This isn't a drug you just jump right into. If you're interested in
nootropics, it's smarter to test the waters with simple stuff like choline
(preferably in the form of citicoline of alpha GPC) and ALCAR (acetyl
L-Carnitine), then slowly considering a racetam like piracetam or noopept.

You need to know how you respond to the easy stuff first. This guy jumped
right into the deep end without looking.

~~~
jodrellblank
_You need to know how you respond to the easy stuff first. This guy jumped
right into the deep end without looking._

He spoke to a previous user, consulted a doctor, and took it as part of a test
by an Oxbridge Professor of Clinical Neuropsychology with "an international
reputation in the fields of cognitive psychopharmacology, neuroethics" [
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Sahakian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Sahakian)
].

That is some level of 'looking'.

~~~
thinkdevcode
Imagine you don't swim, yet you consult with an active swimmer, a professional
swimmer, and a scientist who studies swimming and they all say you can swim.
Do you jump in the deep end?

I wouldn't. And what OP said is absolutely true when it comes to nootropics.
Moda should not be taken lightly. Start with the basics and work your way up.

~~~
jodrellblank
You jump in the deep end and get cramps, you drown.

You jump in the "deep" end with modafinil and you get a headache, a sleepless
night, and people call you ugly? Why is that "not to be taken lightly"? People
do a lot worse than that casually.

I was heading into the article expecting him to end up with a stay in a
psychiatric unit, with long term memory loss or personality disorders, with
organ failure or loss of consciousness. 'Drug nightmares' can go really badly.

And if the good effect was moving him a few percent in focus, do "the basics"
... do anything measurable at all?

------
tanvach
I had the chance to try Modafinil (was prescribed by my psychiatrist). Same
reaction as the author of this article. For a brief period, my head cleared,
mind became less foggy, then I began experiencing negative reactions:
headache, de-hydration, sleeplessness. Had to stop after a week.

------
puranjay
Modafinil is an OTC drug here (India). Most Ayurvedic 'smart herbs' are also
very easily available (Brahmi, Ashwagandha, etc.)

I've tried them all in various combinations and doses. Doesn't really work for
me. Modafinil gives me bad headaches by the evening, and combining it with,
say, Brahmi or Ashwagandha makes me feel nauseous after a few hours.

Maybe there is a nootropic cocktail that works, but I can't figure out which
one. In the meantime, building better habits through good 'ol willpower seems
to yield better results.

------
strathmeyer
From what I can tell he is holding a 200mg tablet and even experienced users
don't take the whole thing at once. And if it was such a nightmare why did he
do it three times? It doesn't make you dehydrated... it makes you realize you
are dehydrated... so drink some water.

------
pervycreeper
Does modafinil even improve cognitive performance compared to being well-
rested?

~~~
snatoeusntaoeu
Yep, for some people. It depends on your genes. There's some discussion of it
here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1524881](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1524881)

------
joshschreuder
Does modafinil provide any benefit to physical performance, or is it purely
cognitive? For instance, does it do anything when lifting, or playing sport or
similar?

~~~
peteretep
I've found it positively affects my self-discipline in all sorts of ways,
including finishing sets I might lazily walk away from. I haven't noticed any
physiological effects, and I've done some fairly intense exercise on it.

~~~
askafriend
How often do you take it?

~~~
peteretep
Once every 2-3 weeks

------
Radle
The Author says he got a headache and other problems that are most likely side
effects. But I assume you shouldn't order your drugs online AND oversea.

~~~
peteretep
Yeah. I found it pretty easy to get it prescribed in the UK. I found a private
doctor in a financial district whose marketing message was about discreet
treatment for embarassing personal and sexual disorders, and told him I needed
it for jetlag, and had taken it before effectively. Local chain pharmacist was
happy to fulfil the prescription.

