

Ask PG:  What makes the Wufoos such animals? - edw519

74 days ago, you said:<p>"the Wufoos are such animals that, on their territory, no one could compete with them, not even Google"<p>I asked:<p>"Can you be a little more specific? Maybe 5 or so bullets. What kinds of things should the rest of us be focusing on to be more Wufoo like competitors. I'd love to be so good that pg would never want to have me as a competitor."<p>You responded:<p>"Thanks; I think I may have just figured out what to talk about at startup school."<p>The link:<p>http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=110725<p>Since you changed your mind about your Startup topic, how about a bonus essay?  Or even a short answer here.  Aspiring animals want to know.<p>Thanks.
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murrayh
Small story:

I was investigating wufoo.com one day, and was mightily impressed - so
impressed that I sent them an email nitpicking some extremely minor issues
(the first and only email of its kind that I've sent).

The grammar issue I raised was fixed almost immediately, and fixed by
completely replacing the problem word and all of its various forms.

The searchbox alignment was changed perhaps a week or two later, probably with
an unreasonable effort to benefit ratio (good old HTML/CSS issues).

Their response showed me that the wufoo guys care, and that they know how to
debug problems instead of just superficially fixing symptoms.

That search bar still has some minor flaws though. I get a hand pointer over
the search icon, but clicking it does not illicit a response. And I also get a
hand pointer over the right corner of the search bar, which is a little weird
(clicking there also does nothing).

I don't know exactly what it is, but there is something about that website
that resonates with me (I actually have never used the service), and it drives
me to pipe up with crap like this, which is not typical of me.

~~~
aaronsw
Did they ever respond to your email? When I sent them nitpicks their reply was
all snippy about it.

~~~
unfoldedorigami
Hey Aaron, for that, I'm going to have to take the blame and offer my
apologies. (I think I apologized before, but here it is again). Your nitpicks
were actually really great feedback and addressed the kind of design details
that make all the difference between what's good enough and what's great in an
interface. Unfortunately, they were 1) covering stuff that was near the bottom
of our priority stack because we were just trying to launch at that point 2) I
was still an asshole during that period and hadn't fully learned the value of
users yet: [http://particletree.com/notebook/reflections-of-an-
interface...](http://particletree.com/notebook/reflections-of-an-interface-
designer/)

I offer no excuses. Thanks again for taking the time to help us then and I'm
sorry that I left a bad impression for my reactions.

~~~
dcurtis
You are awesome.

Seriously. Users are fucking awesome, but people like you, people who
understand users and are completely transparent about their process are even
more awesome.

Thank you for the inspiration.

------
pg
The final talk grew out of that idea. I didn't end up mentioning the Wufoos by
name, but they are extraordinarily dedicated to their users.

~~~
edw519
I can't imagine a better answer.

The good news: I feel better already because I have always been
extraordinarily dedicated to my users.

The not so good news: I'm so dedicated that I'm often afraid to release soon
enough. Just last week, a customer accused me of being a perfectionist and
said, "Just give me what you've got." Ewww. I have to find a happy medium.

~~~
astrec
Some years ago I was trying to deliver a product in the face of rampant
perfectionism - the kind that never delivers - when, so the story goes, I said
"There is a level of mediocrity people are willing at accept, and I'm all for
delivering it."

I cringe every time it's quoted back to me - usually after I've heaped scorn
on some prematurely released product. I was trying to make the point, of
course, that after six months in the bat cave our product would benefit from
some customers more than the customers would benefit from our product. (It's
now #1 in its market thanks to those same customers).

Knowing when to pull the trigger is an art. There really is a level of
"mediocrity" where no amount of spit and polish trumps getting a product in
front of customers.

------
staticshock
I saw this in the wufoo FAQ:

Weâ€™ve done everything possible to ensure the safe keeping of your data and
the data you collect. Our servers are located at 365 Main and backed up onsite
and offsiteâ€“every 12 hours in Toronto and every 24 hours in Virginia.

i'm using opera 9.26 with automatic character encoding on.

(sorry, this may not be the best place to submit such feedback...)

------
SwellJoe
What makes you think he changed his mind about what to talk about at Startup
School?

~~~
itay
My guess is because your competitor having "benevolence" does not exclude you
from having it. It is not a scarce resource that only n parties can use.

~~~
SwellJoe
And yet, none of their competitors has as much benevolence as Wufoo (certainly
not Google). The Wufoos are on a mission from God, and you really don't want
to get in the way of people like that (you can see what happened to all the
cops chasing Jake and Elwood...those guys never stood a chance). Wufoo is
kinda like that.

It seems pretty obvious to me that pg's talk was exactly about what makes
Wufoo such a terror. They have a near infinite supply of morale built right
into how they approach their business...they can't fail because it would never
cross their mind to accept failure because what they're doing is The Right
Thing--as long as they do The Right Thing, they have succeeded. And as long as
they have that approach and you don't, you wouldn't want to try to beat them
in their space. And, of course, having "beat Wufoo" as one of your guiding
principles you would have already lost.

pg may be getting a bit zen on us, but I think there's a real kernel of truth
in there.

~~~
itay
I have some reservations about your claim that "having "beat Wufoo" as one of
your guiding principles you would have already lost.". Namely, it scares me
that we're so willing to just assign the high ground to one group, and say
that they trying to dislodge them is not "being good".

I realize that what you are saying is that your goal should be to "be good",
and that if your goal is to beat Wufoo, then your goal isn't to be good. But
that's a slippery slope. My goal might be to make the best product in this
market, and that implicitly means that I want to beat Wufoo by the simple
virtue of being better than them.

(Disclaimer: I have nothing against Wufoo. I haven't really used their product
either).

~~~
SwellJoe
"Namely, it scares me that we're so willing to just assign the high ground to
one group, and say that they trying to dislodge them is not "being good"."

You've misinterpreted my intent (and are easily scared). If you knew me, and
the way I talk about competitors of Virtualmin and VM2 (who, generally, are
not doing good by their users), you'd know that I don't have a problem with
taking aim at competitors. But, it's an issue of mindset and morale, which is
a core part of pg's talk. If you decided you have to "beat Wufoo" in order to
be successful, every day that you aren't beating Wufoo is a day that you've
lost. As another speaker at Startup School pointed out (in a different
context, but it applies here) losing all the time really sucks. So, if you're
thinking "I've gotta beat Wufoo" and Wufoo is thinking "I've gotta make an
awesome product for my customers" you will lose and by losing you will find
you feel more and more drained every day. While your competitor that is
thinking "I made my product more awesome today and users loved it!" is going
to feel great. They will come back the next day ready to do it again, while
you'll come back the next day thinking, "This sucks."

That's all I'm saying. No one has a monopoly on "good". But, if a market
already has a product that clearly meets the definition, it might be wise to
pick another market. Nobody is saying you can't possibly beat Wufoo...but, pg
said he wouldn't want to try. You, or anyone else, are welcome to go against
that advice, but you may find it's a harder row to hoe than you expected.

~~~
itay
I think we agree more than we disagree, and I'm sorry for doing a bad job of
getting my point across.

I agree that if you set out to "beat Wufoo", then you are not going about it
the right way, and you'll probably lose. What I worry about is that if you set
out to "make the best product for your customers", and you don't believe Wufoo
is it, then in some way, you have an implicit goal of "beating Wufoo", but one
which I find acceptable.

I also entirely agree that a market which has a "good" product (both in terms
of the product, and in terms of the intentions) might be the wrong market to
enter (Google and search is also an example). However, I think we both agree
that it is a market that you CAN enter, and you CAN win, even though it might
be harder.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw
I am reminded of the poem by Matsuo Bashou -

古人の跡を求めず、

古人の求めたるの所を求めよ。

 _kojin no ato wo motomezu,

kojin no motometaru no tokoro wo motome yo_

Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the wise;

seek what they sought.

(aside: argh! typsetting poetry with the HN markup facilities available is
frustrating.)

