
Ask HN: Is 170k a good salary for a software developer in Seattle? - yeidayeida
I have been offered a job in Seattle that will pay 170k in total comp. I have 10 yrs of experience in software dev. Another competing offer was from Facebook but I declined it because they wanted me to join at in one level down than my current role.<p>I am 31 and don&#x27;t have kids.I plan to marry next year. My wife may or may not work.<p>If I move to Seattle, what are hobbies I can pursue? I heard its usually gets very cold in winter. I haven&#x27;t made up my mind but I found a place near UW for $1400 per month.<p>What are your thoughts?
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dacort
At what level, company size, and cash/equity split?

I'm co-founder of a local startup here w/~140 people and that's pretty
comparable/above average to what I've seen depending on the cash/equity split.
The big co's (Facebook, Amazon, Google, Twitter, et. al) will be higher than
average due to the nature of how hard it is to hire good folks here.

Seattle is fantastic for people that enjoy the outdoors - hiking, backpacking,
rock climbing, ski/snowboarding, camping. The closest ski/snow area is 45
minutes from the city. It doesn't get _too_ cold in Seattle proper - usually
around 40° F. The nice thing is that you have the mountains nearby, so if you
do want the cold weather it's a quick trip.

One word of caution around UW - your age is definitely on the higher end of
other people that will be living in that area. Although the rents are cheap,
that's usually for a reason. Reddit is a great resource for info on moving to
Seattle -->
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/wiki/index](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/wiki/index)

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whack
You're not going to like my answer, but here goes.

First, you made a big mistake in turning down FB because "you would be one
level lower." I know those levels seem like a big deal when you're working for
those promotions, but ultimately, they really don't matter. The only things
that really matter: how much are they paying you, what will you be working on,
and how is it going to affect your future career prospects. From a salary
perspective, I'm sure FB would have offered you more, if nothing else, purely
through additional leverage for negotiating. From a career perspective, having
the Facebook brand on your resume, and the contacts you'll make there, would
have helped your future prospects immensely. Compared to these benefits, being
"one level lower" is pretty meaningless.

Second, given that you're someone smart/accomplished enough to get an offer
from FB, and have 10 years of SW experience, 170k seems low. Check out the
other HN threads about salaries at top software companies. Plenty of people
with similar or less qualifications report total comps of 250k. That's the
level of comp you should realistically be shooting for.

Third, even if 170k is "lower than you deserve", that's irrelevant. The only
question worth asking is whether 170k is better than your next best option. Go
find a cost-of-living calculator and you can easily figure out whether 170k in
Seattle beats your current salary-location. In an ideal world, they will give
you 3 months to make a decision, and during this time, you can go interview
with all the other major companies, in order to find a better offer.
Realistically, since you've already turned down FB and the other companies
will have long interview timelines, you don't have the time for this. If the
170k offer is better than your current situation, just accept it, and you can
then reevaluate your situation 2 years from now.

~~~
throwaway2016a
I can't find the source but I read somewhere that when Facebook makes you an
offer they make it one level lower than where you are currently at as a matter
of policy.

~~~
ajma
Level comparison across companies is useless. People who were first-level
managers at Microsoft didn't even have manager in their title (it was lead,
but that's changed recently). Then at a second-level manager, you would get
manager in your title. Most other companies will have manager in your title
when you're first-level managers. The job was the same, the just called it
different things. I've talked to many people who worked both at Amazon and
Microsoft and we've learned how to calibrate to say what level at Microsoft =
what level at Amazon, but it's not a clean split.

Also, some smaller tech companies will inflate titles to try to compete for
talent. Like I met someone who's a VP of engineering, they have a total team
size of 2. That's not the same as a VP at Facebook. If that guy got an offer
for one level lower, that would be a huge step up.

------
xorgar831
Typically $150-180k is salary, and then benefits on top of that, so if you're
at one of the bigger companies that offer RSU's your total comp is closer to
$200k. But $170k is fine, and unless you're in a great tech area already,
you'll likely make more connections.

Rent for most software folks is $1600-2500, the UW district is cheaper since
it's a notch down from other areas. Ballard or Capitol Hill would be better,
that or Ravina or Freemont. All great places for 30-something yuppies.

Depends on where you're coming from to say whether you'll like the weather,
but it's not cold in Seattle, it has a lot of overcast and drizzly days
though. Folks that like the weather here appreciate the mildness, not too hot
and not cold. Outdoor stuff galore, lots of mountain related stuff, craft
everything foodie scene, nerd gaming galore.

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pedasmith
It's not cold at all in the winter -- in a typical winter, it hardly ever gets
below freezing during the day, and rarely snows "down low". The mountains
nearby do get lots of snow. Be aware that we get lots of clouds in the winter;
some people can't stand not seeing the sun.

There's tons of good hiking in the seattle area along with boating.

170K is pretty good.

~~~
Hydraulix989
The latitude also means that in January, the sun rises at 10 AM, and it starts
getting dark around 3 PM.

It's pretty demoralizing to go to work and leave work in complete darkness for
days on end.

Meanwhile, the rain alternates between actual rain and misting constantly from
September until May.

I actually prefer the Pittsburgh weather with its four seasons.

~~~
chrystianv
You are way off on your perception of latest sunrise and earliest sunset in
Seattle:

[https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/seattle?month=12&year=20...](https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/seattle?month=12&year=2016)

~~~
Hydraulix989
Okay, even if I play along momentarily with what you're saying, 8 AM and 4 PM
is still pretty bad... 4 PM?! Ouch...

But keep in mind that the definitions of sunrise and sunset here do not
include dawn and dusk -- at 4 PM, the sun has _completely_ set, which means
that at 3 PM, it's already well into starting to set.

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ci5er
This would seem to indicate that it's an above average salary:

* [https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/seattle-senior-software-e...](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/seattle-senior-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,7_IM781_KO8,32.htm)

> because they wanted me to join at in one level down than my current role.

As you move between companies of larger or smaller sizes, to/from different
countries, between industries and the public/private sector, I think you might
be doing yourself a disservice by being too focused on a specific title or
rank.

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manyxcxi
Not sure of your breakdown on salary/options/whatever. On a $170k salary I had
no problem with a wife staying at home and 3 kids but we weren't living
downtown, we were in a suburb a few miles east.

$1400/mo rent isn't too bad for that part of town, no matter the square
footage. It's not a steal, but I've had friends pay double for 2 bedrooms that
were awful.

No state income tax which is awesome- moving back to Oregon was a real kick in
the tax bill after being away for a few years.

Seattle is a fun city that doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg to live well
in. But you can make it as expensive as you want it to be.

I've only been gone a few months and miss all the meetups for any tech you
might want to talk about.

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BuckRogers
Cash up front is the only thing that matters. Promises are worthless. Tell us
the base salary and I can answer your question accurately.

------
Steeeve
Salary is a tricky topic - especially in terms of total comp.

I think the bigger concern should be whether you will live and be happy with
the lifestyle that you are currently accustomed to with the dollar amounts
involved (live and save).

170K is certainly competitive, don't get me wrong. And in my brief visits
there it looks like a very nice place to make a home. But there's a very
personal aspect to relocation and money is a big part of it.

If you are looking to have kids, does that salary put you in a position to
live in a large enough place that is a reasonable distance in an area with a
good school district? I don't know, but I do know that it's plenty for that in
a lot of areas and not nearly enough in others. People without children don't
really understand how much a desirable school district affects the cost of
housing.

There's also the question of relocation expenses, how they get paid, how it
affects your taxes, and what term they commit you to.

My advice would be to take a two week trip with the idea of spending the
entirety of it looking at areas to live both currently and in the future.

I found a good calculator here: [http://www.areavibes.com/cost-of-living-
calculator/](http://www.areavibes.com/cost-of-living-calculator/) I used
something similar during my own relocation and found it to be a decent
guideline (I'm sure most of these calculators use a common dataset).

Once you do the initial comparison, click into your current location, adjust
the salary, and re-compare to get the right numbers. Look at the detail of how
your area appears and use that as a basis for understanding the statistical
impression it has of Seattle.

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snarfy
170k is good. Winters are mild. It might get into the 20s, but not every year.
Some are very mild and do not get below freezing. The yearly average low is
40F and the average high 70F. In addition to all the normal hobbies you can
pursue in a major metropolitan area, there are quite a bit of outdoors
activities available as well.

------
jjcm
I lived in Seattle for the last 3 years, but just recently moved to Sydney. I
was making ~150k in Seattle and I had a very comfortable lifestyle. Housing
costs are low enough that I was able to save a substantial amount (especially
compared to SF) while still having fun.

Winter is definitely colder than the bay area, but in the three years I was
there it only snowed once. UW is fun and there's a lot of good places to eat
on the cheap up there, but as it is near a university expect a young crowd.

I loved the city overall though. Good music/food/living, great summers,
amazing hiking in the area. Really close to Portland as well which is just a
bouquet of culture.

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cypherpunks01
If you like the outdoors, Seattle and the whole pacific northwest is the best
place for hiking and weekend trips in general in my opinion. You have snowy
mountains, temperate rainforests, ocean beaches, amazing car ferries,
Vancouver and Portland all within a couple hours away by car. The winter is
extremely mild compared to almost every other place in the northern US.
University district, capitol hill, fremont, and lots of other seattle
neighborhoods are really great. The salary sounds good to me, I would think
you would be able to put down a bunch towards savings, living expenses are
somewhat elevated in Seattle but not like NYC or SF.

~~~
smegel
> amazing car ferries

What's so amazing about them?

~~~
ren_fro
Off topic: To me, an amazing ferry would permit that you drive onto the ferry
at 80 mph, and maintain speed for the duration of the trip, and then exit the
ferry at 80 mph. Going slower is permissible, and pit stops are accomodated in
an onboard rest area. I'd be impressed by a ferry that handles an entire
freeway like that, and connects two ports separated by hundreds of miles of
water.

~~~
greggyb
Your "ferry" would have to be a minimum of several miles long. It would be a
motorized section of road.

------
skookum
You don't mention what size company this offer is from, but in general for the
established A-list tech companies a Senior SDE in Seattle would be making at
least that in total comp (salary + RSUs + average bonus if applicable). That
having been said, 170K for a couple in Seattle is more than enough for a
comfortable lifestyle + savings.

Regarding your other questions: You can pursue the same indoor hobbies as
anywhere else obviously. Outdoors-wise, we have some of the best hiking in the
world, great ski/snowboarding locally and ~4 hrs to Whistler for world-class,
and sea kayaking right out the door. There are is also a very strong cycling
community here, though the road biking is more obvious than the mountain
biking. If you're willing to drive a bit further on weekends, there's also
world-class wind surfing and white water kayaking.

As for "very cold in winter" \- it rarely gets very cold, but then I grew up
in eastern Canada so maybe my reference is skewed. The coldest it gets with
any regularity is low 40s/high 30s. What may be more concerning in terms of
winter conditions is that fact that we get extended periods of cloudy weather
and shorter day light hours compared to the bay area which some people find
depressing.

------
cyberpanther
170k in salary sounds really good but since you say total comp, I'm guessing
you have stock options or something. So depending on the percentage and what
company it is for, 170k total comp could be good or bad.

My first software job was with a big tech company and the stock only went down
after I joined. So my stock options were worthless even 10 years later.

------
Jach
Sounds pretty good to me. (My office is in Seattle.) There's lots of stuff to
do, just depends what you like doing. It almost never snows, maybe a rare week
long "snowpocalypse" every few years, it doesn't really get cold. (I'm a
transplant from the concave corner of Utah though...)

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chrismcb
170k is a decent salary for someone with 10 years experience in Seattle.
Seattle didn't really get cold. It rarely freezes. If course it doesn't really
get warm either. Unless you like to attend professional men's basketball there
isn't much you can't do in Seattle.

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lwhalen
PM me. In short - 'meh'. 'hell no' if it's for Amazon.

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thefastlane
"My wife may or may not work."

forget hobbies and the weather. you and your significant other need to sit
down and work out an understanding of each other's career goals, and
especially whether you plan to have kids.

i am less familiar with seattle's cost of living, but for SF/NYC for example,
170k/year will come with significant lifestyle tradeoffs to be worked out
(e.g., in terms of size of home, commute time, public/private school);
obviously two-income will come with its own set of decisions to be made as
well.. it's worth talking all this over now.

------
gnarbarian
Man, I'm 34 with 10 years experience and a CS degree. In Alaska I make 65k as
a Sr. Programmer/Analyst. Been at the same job for 6 years. Wages for
programmers is lower than the national average despite a dramatically high
cost of living.

Economy up here is in the toilet thanks to the price of oil so looking for a
job is terrifying.

I need to find a remote gig... Or leave the state with the intention of moving
back in a year.

~~~
64738
I'm in my mid-40s and making the same amount in Ohio as a "Senior Software
Engineer". But, I've been with the same small company for about 20 years. No
degree, though, just self-taught and the odd online course here and there.

I have the feeling that I'm shorting myself quite a bit, maybe by $30K or more
according to the salaries I researched several years ago for similar roles
(full-stack dev minus visual design) in the same town.

My problem is I got comfortable. I get along with the boss and other employees
(and one of them has been there almost as long as I have!), and am afforded
some perks that are very useful, such as flexible hours, private office, no
supervisor (just the boss/owner), etc.

And, due to being "comfortable", I haven't pushed for occasional raises or
seriously shopped around for better positions. In fact, I think the only
reason I wrote this was for it to act as an attempt to nudge myself away from
"comfortable".

TLDR: don't get too comfortable.

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ronreiter
You should think about your career rather than your salary. If you go there,
will you be employed for 150k at 40 or 300k at 40? (Not taking inflation into
account)

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chajath
170k sounds like a good deal now. Also consider there are many IT companies
opening offices in Seattle, so down the road you can negotiate for better
salary

------
jetako
DO NOT move to Seattle if you have any kind of seasonal-affective disorder, or
you value seeing the sky.

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nud
Am I the only one made uncomfortable by someone asking if 170k is a good
salary, and made even more uncomfortable by the people inquiring if that's
enough to maintain a decent quality of life? 170k is over 2.5x the median
income in Seattle, and people start families and find contentment with far
less.

Perhaps a less entitled way of phrasing the question would have been "Is 170k
an appropriate salary for a software dev in Seattle?" I think my issue is with
the implication that 170k might not be a good salary to maintain high standard
of living.

As tech workers with the potential to earn these large sums, we should be
aware of our privilege, and cognizant of how the rest of the population lives.

~~~
product50
This is a tech forum and not reddit. Most folks here are within the tech
industry and I have seen threads where people have been discussing $400k
salaries like it is no big deal. So I feel this is a fair way to phrase the
question given the forum's context.

~~~
stuxnet79
> Most folks here are within the tech industry and I have seen threads where
> people have been discussing $400k salaries like it is no big deal.

I would still argue this comprises the minority in HN.

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bitJericho
I don't know where you plan on working, but do not take a job from Amazon.
They will eat you up and spit you out as soon as you're not necessary anymore.
That is to say, if you're project ends, you're fired. If you survive there
that long.

~~~
mataug
This is completely untrue. If you're a software dev worth your salt you're not
gonna get fired. Even if you did you'll probably easily find another job.

Obviously like any tech giant work life balance and general experience varies
from team to team.

Just to broadly say that amazon is a terrible organisation to work for is a
disservice to devs.

I personally know people who work and Amazon and have experiences ranging the
spectrum from Amazing to terrible, it depends a lot on on the team you work
with and the managers that you have.

~~~
thowwy2654
This is completely true. I was an Amazon engineer who received a PIP soon
after my team successfully launch our project. An Amazon SDM who did not know
I received a PIP told me the same day that the team's funding had been cut and
managers were having a war to cannibalize our headcount. I was also told (in
the PIP document which I can post online) that I could save my job by choosing
my Indian manager's friend in India (I was in Seattle) as my personal mentor
and boss even though Amazon's mentor program is totally voluntary and SDE's
don't manage people. I think this was a ruse to justify transferring the
person to the US and obtaining a visa. Amazon is a terrible shit organization
no engineer should work at. I of course no longer work there and now make
exactly 82% more compensation. All those people can DIAF. I want Amazon to
stay shitty and continue to employ those talentless assholes (who still work
there) because I never want to have to deal with those people again.

~~~
lostmsu
Did you report it? Because that sounds like extreme misconduct. Amazon could
have got rid of those nasty people. It might be a criminal investigation
actually.

~~~
thowwy2654
No. Obviously HR and senior managers signed off on the PIP document which
outlined all this. I asked my manager who was making him do this (HR, execs,
his real boss in India) and he said no one. I told him if that was true (which
I knew it wasn't) then he fucked up because he cost Amazon a SDE and he was
going to take all of the blame. He still works there so I was right. Amazon
does not get 'rid' of ridiculously bad managers just as the catholic church
does not get rid of child molesters and a person does not get rid of one of
their organs.

I had no reason to stay as I have multiple masters degrees and Amazon, along
with a PIP, was offering 0% raise and no RSU's after delivering a multi-
million dollar project.

~~~
thowwy2654
I did contact HR when I caught one of my other managers lying about my
interview feedback in MRT notes (hiring system). All HR did was pull the
feedback and when it was shown that a manager had done something inappropriate
they of course dropped it. I knew it was a waste of time but didn't care. I
was surprised I wasn't PIP'ed at that point. Amazon employees have to watch
their managers closely.

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zump
As someone in Sydney Australia, isn't this a ridiculously good salary? Average
Google engineers wouldn't make this.

~~~
cylinder
Yeah this thread is a humble brag. 170k in a state with no income tax and
housing at $1400, you don't need to be a software engineer to calculate your
disposable income after that.

~~~
skookum
We constantly have HN comments about how underpaid software engineers are, how
companies are colluding to keep salaries down, etc, etc, etc. Then when
someone asks if a salary is in the right ballpark for the local market,
they're humble-bragging?

~~~
cylinder
Nothing was posted about specific skills, just "ten years in software dev."
This could be building WordPress sites or it could be architecting the backend
of Netflix. OP's value will be determined by the demand for his services in
relation to how many people have experience providing those services, what
their current pay is, and whether they're open to a new job.

~~~
zump
Compensation is really what the next guy would take +/\- 10%.

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qrpike
Personally, I don't think so. You can make more contracting as a developer (
1099 ). Also you get more tax writeoffs, too.

~~~
segmondy
Please tell us more. How? Where can I find these contracts?

