
Surface 3 Update - chokolad
http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2014/11/01/surface-3-update
======
andrewgodwin
I do like the Surface 3; it's a lovely piece of hardware, Windows 8.1 is an
improvement, and for a desktop OS, the touch interface is pretty good. It's
the best Windows computer I've ever owned, but I still turn to my Linux laptop
for coding; the tooling and packaging for the languages I use just isn't
really there on Windows.

That said, they need to improve their messaging - this is the first time, as a
Surface 3 owner, that I've heard about this Surface Hub app that lets me
adjust my pen sensitivity (and I've wanted that for a while!).

~~~
pmelendez
>"but I still turn to my Linux laptop for coding; the tooling and packaging
for the languages I use just isn't really there on Windows"

What have worked for me so far is having an Ubuntu VM on Hyper-V. I works
really well and I have never noticed that is virtualized instead of being
running natively.

------
bbarn
It's a nice toy. I have the big bad 8gb RAM, 500gb SSD that work paid for. As
a pretty much exclusively .net/visual studio dev, the experience for
development, while the machine is powerful enough to handle it, is utterly
abysmal. Visual Studio and SQL server (which uses the VS shell) does not
support touch screens in any sensible or usable way. I'm not asking for
gesture rich smart windows here, just being able to scroll a text editor with
one finger. Every other MS app on there seems ok, just not the VS based ones.
Nothing but text selecting when you're expecting to scroll. The physical
keyboard is too flexible and cramped to use on your lap - despite all the
marketing videos claims, and probably my single biggest annoyance is that when
that physical typecover is installed, it still pops up the soft keyboard every
time you touch a textbox, anywhere. That, and if your soft keyboard isn't set
up right, many times it will take maximized or docked left/right windows and
resize them, only to leave them resized once the keyboard goes away again.

So while I love to hear people say it's good for "creating content", as long
as that content is a drawing, that might be true, but if that "content" is any
kind of written work, spreadsheet, or coding task, it's almost useless.

Also, the version of OneNote that comes with it is so handicapped that it also
borders on useless. For the price of these things and the advertisement of
having Office on them, the pared down versions were a big disappointment.

~~~
stinos
Your complaints in the first paragraph, while valid, come from trying to use
VS and/or other text input tools with touch - (correct me if I'm wrong). I'd
be interested to also hear about your experiences with using it 'normally'.
I.e. if you just put the surface+keyboard on a desk or your lap and treat it
as a laptop without using touch, how usable is it for VS and the likes?

~~~
bbarn
That's what I meant to say with the part about the flimsy/flexible typecover.
It's quite tough to type using it on a lap, and the touchpad isn't very easy
to use either. I tried the combo of typecover and pen - that was closest to
most usable, but still just fell short. The other problem is that you're
trying to balance a small (in width) stand between two legs, which practically
meant squeezing my thighs together to not have it fall between them.

It's decent enough on a table top though, if used like a traditional laptop
and you have a mouse or are patient enough with the pen.

~~~
stinos
Thanks for the info. I always had the impression the type cover was meant to
be the proper 'lap' counterpart of the touchcover in that it would be sturdier
etc but appears that is not the case. Thats not so nice. Still in the market
for one though, I think. Let's see what the Surface Pro 4 brings :]

------
programminggeek
Kudos to Microsoft for going out of their way to support and improve an
important product after launch. Microsoft certainly has a history of doing
this with their larger initiatives like XBox, but in the PC industry, this
kind of post product improvement isn't so common.

When was the last time you saw Dell really iterate on a product post launch in
a meaningful way.

To revive the PC market, Microsoft needs to do what Apple did for the last 15
or so years - stop treating PC like a commodity market where you ship beige
boxes to customers without much care to differentiation or a delightful end
user experience.

Surface is easily the most interesting PC I've seen in probably 10 years in
Windows' ecosystem. I hope Microsoft sticks with it.

~~~
thrownaway2424
Delightful end user experience you say? I happened to be visiting my father
and to my surprise he pulled out a Surface 3. He turned it on and it ... spent
90 minutes rolling back some service pack because Dad had had the temerity to
put the device to sleep when the service pack was being installed. Needless to
say, all the end users in the family were delighted by this endless
administrivia.

~~~
Sonicmouse
What happens if you power off an iPad (or any other device, for that matter)
in the middle of a system update?

Atleast his mistake didn't brick it and Windows was smart enough to make sure
that didn't happen.

~~~
gress
Powering off is not the same as putting the device to sleep.

Windows offers a menu option to the user to sleep the device during the
update. That is a design fault.

~~~
marvy
There is at least one good reason to do so. Imagine that you're installing an
update and notice that your battery is so low it won't finish before it dies.
Surely sleeping is better than allowing a loss of power?

In the worst case, the update is rolled back, which wastes time, but it's
better than risking file system corruption due to loss of power.

Even if you don't get corruption, data loss is likely. For instance, you may
have been browsing HN when power goes out. Will your browser's crash recovery
carefully restore the comment you've been typing for the last 17 minutes?
Maybe yes, but is every program you're running so careful?

This is not a design fault, at least in my opinion.

~~~
joosters
Other devices (e.g. iOS) will warn you if you try to start an update with low
battery power, so you can't make this mistake in the first place. Besides, the
device itself can spot a low battery (and act on it to ensure the system stays
consistent), so why does there need to be a user option to put the device to
sleep during the upgrade?

My guess is that Microsoft didn't think about this at all, leading to the
rubbish user experience.

~~~
melling
It doesn't just warn you, it prevents you from making that mistake.

------
noahbradley
Since I suspect not many artists lurk around here, let me just say this: the
newly updated pressure curves make a _huge_ difference. It was one of the few
complaints I had with the device. As it is, it's an almost perfect tool for
artists. Say what you will about Microsoft, but this is a fine machine.

~~~
greeneggs
Have they improved the pen tracking? For example, using a ruler can you slowly
draw straight lines at a 45 degree angle? [0]

In my experience with the SP3, the N-Trig pen tracking was far inferior to the
Wacom pen in the earlier Surfaces. The poor tracking made my handwriting
unacceptably sloppy-looking. I'm surprised artists can use it, but maybe you
use mostly faster and longer pen strokes?

[0] [http://answers.microsoft.com/en-
us/surface/forum/surfpro3-su...](http://answers.microsoft.com/en-
us/surface/forum/surfpro3-surfupdate/surface-3-wavy-diagonal-lines-when-
inking/78c138e5-50db-4544-a988-6023a84b9675)

------
elevenfist
As an artist, I still found the surface pro 3 heats up after using it for
longer than 30 minutes, making drawing on the screen uncomfortable. I still
have my surface pro 1, and it's usable with a glove, but I generally don't
like drawing with gloves.

It's not a problem that I have with my Cintiq Companion Hybrid. I hope
Microsoft fixes the heat issue at some point.

~~~
Htsthbjig
This is the reason I hope Apple guys mac a pen tablet, they are the only ones
that take heating seriously, even at the application level.

Microsoft has so much legacy code when the mantra was "it does not matter how
inefficient the computer is if development is fast", or "people just can add
bigger batteries to laptops and the problem is solved".

~~~
slantyyz
>> This is the reason I hope Apple guys mac a pen tablet, they are the only
ones that take heating seriously, even at the application level.

While I agree with you on Apple coming out with a pen, I totally disagree with
you on the heating thing. My 2011 Macbook Pro is pretty notorious for heating
issues resulting in crashes and gpu problems. A class action lawsuit was
finally launched this week over those issues.

------
hayksaakian
Surface (and other high quality windows tabs i might not be aware of) are the
only tablet is suitable for traditional PC work.

Other tablets are thinner, sleeker, lighter, or easier to use for CONSUMING
content, but they're a poor substitute for creating content.

~~~
tdicola
That's a silly attitude that even Microsoft isn't pushing anymore. How do you
rationalize it against the rumored upcoming Office support for iOS and
Android?

~~~
hayksaakian
That might be true in the future, but speaking from the present, this is how
it is.

For perspective, I have written Android apps using AIDE on a Nexus 7 and Nexus
5. I also manipulate docs and spreadsheets using google's systems (which are
adequate for making quick edits, but not something i would sit down and write
with for an extended amount of time).

~~~
mark_l_watson
I think that the AIDE IDE is a great piece of work! Admittedly, I have only
created fairly trivial apps using the template projects, but it is amazing to
be able to compile Java code and create a bundled Android application on my
Android phone.

It seems to bother my son a great deal that I have always used Android phones
and never an iPhone. It is the availability of things like AIDE that make an
Android phone also functional as a "real computer."

------
diptanu
Just today I was at a Microsoft Store and played with a Surface Pro 3 for the
first time. I was quite impressed and almost bought it but when I looked up on
the internet about running Ubuntu on it, there are few un-resolved issues.
Such as the bluetooth doesn't work or wifi only works for the 2.4GHz networks.
Overall I was impressed with the hardware, and would totally get one in the
future when it's possible to run Ubuntu on it.

------
DocG
Nice! I bought Surface Pro, thanks to Penny Arcade. I have 17" laptop with
intuos 5 for heavy painting, but surface with manga studio is my go to for
sketching and drawing. Manga studio with its brush engine really simulates
real life drawing way better than PS. Specially on Surface Pro.

I decided to go with surface 1, because of the price and how next ones have
not evolved so much. Around 400 euros gets you a decent, quite comparable with
the latest ones. I would prefer bigger screen, but it is not 500 euro
difference need. couple of things that still annoy me:

-border accuracy with the pen is awful

-touch keyboard is useless rubbish. Even on-screen is better, I didn't know it doesn't have real buttons before I purchased it.

-original pen has only one button(would not be problem without the next one)

-no intuitive way of using modifier keys while drawing/missing modifier keys and this slows everything way down. Maybe there is way to remap volume buttons, haven't tried it yet.

If you are thinking of getting one, take get surface 1 off from the ebay. It
is cheap, if you don't like it, you don't lose money when reselling. It is not
a tablet, it is a laptop, with tablet capabilities.

~~~
dpark
> _If you are thinking of getting one, take get surface 1 off from the ebay._

This is really bizarre advice, especially given that most of your complaints
do not apply to the Surface Pro 3.

"border accuracy with the pen is awful" \- SP3 uses an entirely different pen
technology

"touch keyboard is useless rubbish" \- Get the type cover instead. I'm pretty
sure the touch cover isn't even manufactured for the SP3.

"original pen has only one button" \- Not the case for the SP3.

Disclosure: Microsoft employee

~~~
slantyyz
if you don't mind a bit of added bulk, I'd highly recommend the battery cover
over the type cover. the SP1's battery life is not the greatest, and the added
life the battery cover provides is well worth the premium.

~~~
DocG
I was looking into it, yes. it seemed the best option. havent got around to
order one just yet.

------
Mandatum
Have had my SP3 for more than a month now and I'm so happy I bought one. I've
seen the previous models and read Penny Arcade reviews previously and was
never quite sold on it. I went to MS's TechEd conference and had a play with
one.. Everything just worked. It's better than any laptop I've owned and more
convenient to boot. I wasn't even sold on Windows 8 prior to this, but now -
bring on the change!

The drawbacks: It runs hot. If you're watching a movie, it'll be fanning full
speed. Having screen brightness to max will drain your battery in <4 hours.
The kick stand is great but after a month of use it's no longer got that
perfect rigid movement it once had, it moves slightly (< 2cm on the end) from
what position I put it in. Paying separately for the keyboard which in my
opinion is essential, and too pricey was annoying - but it's good quality and
very nice to use. The end of the pen nib wears easily, however you can contact
MS Support for free replacements.

That's it. In the scheme of things that's piss all drawback for a mobile
device. I'd put the engineering behind it next to that of my Nexus 5 phone. It
just works.

------
cportela
The thing I disliked about my surface (owned a surface pro 1) was the lack of
touch integration and Windows.

Touch integration - someone mentioned for VS/SQL server that the touch is
horrible to even view text. The reality is that almost every application is
broken by default. Only recently have Chrome and Firefox been useful with
touch. The beautiful experience in IE and Explorer were the only places where
that happened. It really sucked to be held back from doing something because
the system started to fight me.

Windows - The above complain is more specific, but this is more my disdain for
the Windows Platform. There aren't good touch OS alternatives to Windows for
the surface, so Windows stays, and it's not very good at open source things. I
prefer Linux, or even OS X like I am using now, over Windows and the surface.

~That said, I do like the surface if these things can be fixed Pros of the
surface: \- The pen really was amazing, OneNote used it perfectly \- Gaming
wasn't perfect, but it was pretty powerful for the size as well ... There's
more but I need to do things. I've listed my complaints.

(screw reading through what I wrote. Post!)

------
namsterdamus
I've been taking a real hard look at it's gaming capabilities. Technically
it's sound specifications wise that indicates it shouldn't have major problems
with gaming with the exception of the Intel Iris Pro GPU which in many demos
has show to be a pretty capable graphics processor. Yet there are details of
the GPU that simply don't make sense for example how can it score so low on
general firestrike benchmarks yet run League of Legends and Assassin's creed
at 90FPS. It's even been tested playing WoW at 120 FPS in some instances yet a
game that wouldn't at first guess be so demanding like Diablo 3 runs at a
unexplainable low 20FPS, what makes that specific game so different? My guess
is Particle or general physics which the GPU doesn't handle well however
Starcraft 2 seems to run just fine which in my option should be the same as
Diablo 3. Also most games are designed to default to CPU processing if bullet
or PhysX options are not available. Maybe someone else can unravel this
mystery.

~~~
pragmar
It could have something to do with CPU throttling, though I'm sure there are
other factors at play. Once the temperature crosses the threshold, performance
will deteriorate significantly. My guess is the better performing games
operating below threshold.

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC8rCeDMqFw](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC8rCeDMqFw)

------
fiatmoney
I have heard that Ubuntu works "OK" (which I interpret as "barely tolerable")
on a Surface Pro 3. Does anyone have firsthand experience with that or another
Linux distro on that hardware?

I have also heard of people running Ubuntu via VirtualBox or HyperV on a
Surface Pro 3, which I'd expect to work as well as anything else.

~~~
serf
the touch screen experience itself will give you the biggest trouble; the
hardware itself is pretty compatible.

use of a touch-screen centric DE/WM (unity) would be advised, but other than
that it should be OK.

------
AlbertoGP
I've been using a Surface Pro 3 for a few days. I bought it to eventually
replace my laptop of 4 years, a ThinkPad W500 running Linux (Ubuntu, then
Linux Mint Debian Edition).

For now I'm using it with Windows 8.1, and Ubuntu under VirtualBox. Supposedly
Hyper-V would run faster but it disables Connected Standby so I'm sticking
with VirtualBox until I get around to installing Ubuntu for dual-boot.

First thing I did in Windows was disable indexing and other background
processes and it runs quiet and just warm most of the time (i7, 8GB RAM, 512
GB SSD). I'm happy with it in this aspect, the fan comes up some times but so
does the W500, and the noise is much less intrusive. The T41 and W500 I've
used have an annoying "yaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu" sound, worse for the T41 in my
recollection, but the Surface has a constant white noise that bothers me much
less.

Then I installed Firefox, GIMP, Inkscape, Blender, and Emacs. They work very
well. Still no pressure sensitivity in GIMP, even after installing N-Trig's
WinTab drivers, both 64 and 32 bit versions, so I would not lose anything by
using them under Linux, but the graphics under VirtualBox is quite slow, even
with 3D acceleration enabled.

The pen is very accurate, the smaller parallax compared to Wacom helps in
using it as a mouse, but for freehand drawing it's still worse, compared to a
Wacom Intuos 3 (external USB) and to a Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 2014 edition.
I tried using the Galaxy Note as my main computer since I'm compiling in
remote machines most of the time anyway, but I'm very disappointed with
Android. Linux console applications work fine after you install one of the
Debian chroots, but I've tried a GIMP-Inkscape-Xserver[1] bundle app for
Android and the re-drawing is uselessly slow.

[1]
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.gimp.inksc...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.gimp.inkscape&hl=en)

The biggest problem with the pen, now that pressure curves can be adjusted, is
the wavy diagonal lines. This is not visible at 1:1 zoom, but when drawing
freehand in Inkscape, when you zoom in it's absolutely obvious and you need to
adjust the spline handles everywhere. I normally draw curves by adding the
points one by one though, so for me it's fine.

I find the type cover excellent given the constraints. It's not as good as the
W500, sure, but it's good enough for constant writing and programming with
Emacs. It's better than the ThinkPad Tablet Folio Keyboard (USB) that I
modified to remove the cover part. I'm considering getting a ThinkPad Compact
USB keyboard because some of my usage involves positioning the tablet as a
monitor, separated from the keyboard.

The touch screen is great and it's surprisingly easy to use normal
applications just with your fingers. Not great, but I find it much more
accurate than the Galaxy Note.

I've tried other combinations before to have both a retina-class display and
Linux in a portable package: Toshiba AC-100 with Lubuntu + iPad 3 which was OK
for LaTeX and then visualizing and browsing in the iPad, Samsung Chromebook 3
(ARM) + iPad which was an improvement for browsing on the laptop and console
use (Ubuntu with crouton) and still allowed me to use LUKS encrypted external
storage which Android doesn't, then Galaxy Note 10.1 with Debian chroot as
mentioned above, and now the Surface.

My impression is that once I get it to boot in Linux with the type cover [2],
bluetooth and 5GHz WiFi working it'll finally cover all my needs.

[2] there is a kernel patch already for it

~~~
nextos
Do you think that this would make sense for a typical Linux tiling window
manager / text mode user?

The form factor is great. I'd like something that i can place in my desk, a
bit far away from me, and attach a usb keyboard to. Much better ergonomics
than a laptop.

For occasional use, I can use a soft keyboard when it's converted to tablet
mode.

~~~
Adaptive
I'm using an SP3 to run i3, Arch (native, not in a VM). Dual booting when I
need Adobe in windows. Didn't even have to disable secure boot.

I am keeping notes on the process here:
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dX6WJ7GLwva58cTh8cCB13us...](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dX6WJ7GLwva58cTh8cCB13usgHJktx497zmBI-
bLEVk/edit?usp=sharing) (note the outstanding bug about the power/hardware
buttons).

Here it is driving a 34" ultrawide:
[http://i.imgur.com/oXLJkpP.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/oXLJkpP.jpg)

I found that there are a couple critical tweaks for me to be able to move back
and forth between comfortable external and internal usage. If you give the SP3
a go, I'd be happy to share further notes/thoughts on this. Basically, I
detect the current DPI when launching a terminal and set the font size
accordingly so I'm not doing it manually (not that font size adjustment is
hard, but it's critical to a smooth workflow to have things just work right).
Same for browser launching. chrom{e,ium} needs to have a flag specifying the
UI scaling at launch for me to use it comfortably on the internal display vs
external.

~~~
nextos
Awesome! I'll try to get one from my employer. Or do you think it's worth
waiting for a SP4 with a Broadwell Core M?

~~~
Adaptive
I long ago gave up on waiting for the next version of anything. That being
said, I love power savings and if I stick with this setup (SPro with a
mechanical keyboard) I will eventually switch to a Broadwell Core M model when
it comes out.

I can get about 6-7 hours of battery on the SP3 under Arch, maybe more if I
worked at it. I'm happy enough with it for now. Coming from a MBP15" (circa
2011) that had fans like a jet engine, even the loudest fan noise from the SP3
doesn't really phase me.

What does bother me a bit is the outstanding bug on the hardware button
support.

If you are on the fence, you could reasonably wait for broadwell and this
button driver issue to get worked out. I'm comfortable with the setup as is,
but it's certainly bleeding edge :)

~~~
nextos
Sounds great. Stupid question, but is it possible to use a soft keyboard while
in text mode?

~~~
Adaptive
If I didn't answer your question, feel free to ping me on email. There's a non
trivial amount of tweaking I did to make this thing run the way I want.

~~~
nextos
Thanks, I will talk to my employer about this. They're quite slow. But I will
eventually reach you through the contact details in the Google Drive document
in case I want to figure out something.

------
muyuu
I still think the Pro 2 is a better compromise, esp. when you consider the
price difference these days. You can get an i5 128GB for around 1/2 the price
of the Pro 3 i7. The i5 doesn't get hot, too.

------
BobMarz
It wouldn't cost much to hire some recent illustration or design school grads
and have them do nothing but test the Surface all day and give feature and
usability suggestions. Asking a busy person like the Penny Arcade artist to
offer suggestions right before the ship date, and then use his suggestions in
post-ship date fixes is just half assed.

------
listic
I would like to buy a Surface Pro 2* to use with Ubuntu. Do you think it makes
sense?

* I specifically like a smaller sized Surface. Unless Microsoft will release a compelling update for a 10.6" model, I will stick with SP2.

~~~
KobaQ
No. I don't think Ubuntu can be installed with all required drivers to run
properly. But that's more a guess. Also, the GUI of Windows 8.1 is quite nice
for hybrid touch/mouse usage. So, for best and easiest GUI (touch or
mouse)interaction Win 8.1 is better, but:

Linux shines with it's shells. The bash is by far the most productive
environment I've ever used. Just install Virtual Box and run Ubuntu in it.

~~~
gcb0
> absolutely no experience on the topic being discussed.

> still has an answer.

:)

[https://jaxbot.me/articles/running-ubuntu-on-a-surface-
pro-2...](https://jaxbot.me/articles/running-ubuntu-on-a-surface-pro-2-off-
the-metal-video-5-26-14)

the surface is a PC like any other. wacom even works out of the box. you just
have some trouble with pressure settings. Touch screen is also a done deal on
almost all windows laptops. never saw one not working in recent times. the
wifi and audio are the usual suspects of linux hell. and in this case it was
true, as it always is. but both could be worked around with know-to-work USB
devices. though wifi seems to have been solved.

anyway, the link has a video.

------
blumkvist
I really disagree with how MS pushes this device (laptop + tablet).

IMHO it's a lot better to look at it like a desktop machine which can
transform to a tablet.

Instead of buying the type cover, think using the cash on the docking station
instead. 8gigs RAM + i5/7 + SSD + 2 monitors + ethernet + full keyboard and a
mouse. And you can unplug it to read/annotate pdfs, write OneNotes in meetings
and other tablet perks.

If you can afford it, buy the cover too. It's nice in some situations where
you might need the keyboard on the go, although I wouldn't expect too much
from it.

~~~
sp332
The tablet itself already had USB and DisplayPort. Just buy a USB keyboard and
Ethernet adapter, and you get everything you listed for way less than $220 the
docking station costs.

~~~
codeulike
Seconded. The official docking station is nice but you can basically do the
same via the USB port

~~~
gcb0
dock stations were never bought by cost conscious consumers. it is corporate
spending, exclusively.

------
arunitc
OTOH, I really wish they released a Service Pack 2 for Windows 7. It takes
over 4 hours to download and install all the updates since SP1. I understand
they want all of us to upgrade to Windows 8, but not at the cost of making
existing user's life difficult

~~~
anonova
You can always slipstream the updates onto the installation media yourself.

