
I am leaving llvm - cvittal
http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122922.html
======
modbait
This will happen more and more, though many will not be as open about their
concerns, for fear of retaliation.

I grew up in a time and place where many took great steps to profess that they
were the "good" people and to ensure that everyone knew that they
appropriately despised the "bad" people (albeit with love). I will not be a
part of a return to that.

~~~
ggm
... posted from a name called _modbait_ "I see what you did there" ...

------
jakobegger
Here’s something I don’t understand. If all you want is to contribute code,
why not do that?

How does it harm you if someone tries to increase diversity?

LLVM is a big project; there’s surely enough space for different people.

Some people will focus on the technical bits; others will focus on legal
issues, and others can focus on social issues.

What’s the problem with that? Why do so many people become defensive when a
project adopts a code of conduct?

If you really only care about building a great project with smart people, why
do you care about the code of conduct? Just carry on with your work!

If the code of conduct actually gets in the way of working, please speak up,
but that doesn’t seem to be the case here.

~~~
stillkicking
Because a code of conduct is just a foot in the door. It provides a pretense
for people to seize power and start policing others in the community.

That would be only one objection, but as always happens, the rules are not
actually what is written, as the OP rightly pointed out.

Another recent example was the Rod Vagg drama in node.js... he became the
target of ire for tweeting an article about Neurodiversity and Free Speech.
Does that sound like something that should go against any code of conduct that
aims to be more welcoming and create diversity? Of course not, unless you
subscribe to Social Justice, where everything is a dogwhistle and an
opportunity to name and shame others.

The person who was leading this charge was then discovered to have a tirade
filled twitter stream full of spiteful and hateful language aimed at white
people and men. Which apparently did not violate any CoC.

The hypocrisy is obvious to anyone who digs past the surface, and the fact
that well-meaning bystanders are effortlessly recruited into defending this
petty and destructive behavior is what makes it so pernicious.

~~~
mylons
the person you're referencing to with the RAMPANT misandry on their twitter
feed is just intolerable and tiring.

~~~
sanxiyn
If so, rvagg should be criticized for those tweets, not for a reasonable
article on neurodiversity.

~~~
Khaine
You misunderstand rvagg didn't have tweets containing misandry. The person who
was leading the charge against him did.

~~~
mylons
ty

------
stillkicking
"[flagged]"

Yet another thread that demonstrates the social justice movement's harmful
influence is flagged into invisibility.

Time to cite Fredrik DeBoer I guess:

>“Social justice” is an awkward term for an immensely important project,
perhaps the most important project, which is to make the world a more
equitable, fair, and compassionate place.

>But the project for social justice has been captured by an elite strata of
post-collegiate, digitally-enabled children of privilege, who do not pursue
that project as an end, but rather use it as a means with which to compete,
socially and professionally, with each other.

>In that use, they value not speech or actions that actually result in a
better world, but rather those that result in greater social reward, which in
the digital world is obvious and explicit. That means that they prefer
engagement that creates a) outrage and b) jokes, rather than engagement that
leads to positive change.

>In this disregard for actual political success, they reveal their own
privilege, as it’s only the privileged who could ever have so little regard
for actual, material progress. As long as they are allowed to co-opt the
movement for social justice for their own personal aggrandizement, the world
will not improve, not for women, people of color, gay and transgender people,
or the poor.

Remember when node.js forked into ayo.js? Well, maybe not, because you weren't
allowed to see it:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15078995](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15078995)

~~~
djsumdog
I saw this on Lobster and wanted to come here to see the comments and found
this.

This is really sad. It shouldn't be flagged at all. It's about tech culture,
the e-mail is very well written and it brings up valid things we should talk
about as a community.

I've had my own posts flagged on Lobster as well, so they're not a bastion by
any means.

I know it's their platform and the mods can do what they want, but it still
bothers me we're silencing conversation. Meanwhile on platforms like Gab/Voat,
you just get insane amounts of bat-shit crazy.

We're losing the moderate people in our society to extreme left/rightness of
platforms.

~~~
stillkicking
Yep. The extremeness of e.g. The_Donald on reddit is a direct result of how
hostile r/politics was to anyone who didn't support Hillary. Sadly, I think
the far left actually likes it this way. They want unreasonable boogiemen they
can point to and demonize, so their own echo chambers can pretend to be the
moderate ones.

------
michaellarabel
For those curious about his contributor statistics, he was actually the fifth
most active one committing to LLVM:
[https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-
Raf...](https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Rafael-
Espindola)

------
shifter
Gotta love how clattner shuts down the thread. He's a nice guy but he does
have a strong authoritarian side that gets triggered by the typical SJW causes
(even in small talk about silly things).

~~~
shifter
To the downvoters: I'm a _liberal_ speaking from years of working with him _in
meat space_. You may not like what I said but it's accurate.

~~~
pulisse
Lattner's message, in its entirety, was:

 _This list is for technical compiler and tools discussions, lets not turn a
thread about Rafael’s personal decision into a rant about CoC’s which we have
been through before.

If you’d like to have a productive discussion about CoC topics, then please
start a new thread and use a respectful and productive tone._

If you're being downvoted for a tendentious characterization of the thread, it
looks justified.

~~~
microcolonel
> _...a rant about CoC’s which we have been through before._

I mean, seems like Dr. Lattner (with all due respect) wants to suppress
discussion of the CoC, despite the fact that discussion of the CoC is
warranted and apparently crucial to retaining talent. The CoC has a direct
effect on this very mailing list, so it seems like it would be up for
discussion there, if anywhere.

~~~
pulisse
He explicitly--quoted right there in the comment you're responding to--invited
a thread _dedicated_ to discussion of the CoC. How from that do you infer that
he's trying to suppress discussion of the topic?

------
YuukiRey
"The last drop was llvm associating itself with an organization that openly
discriminates based on sex and ancestry (1,2)."

I think this paragraph says more about the author of the post and his true
intentions than the rest of the post.

~~~
kgabis
Could you explain what you think his true intentions are? Because to me it
does look both sexist and racist.

------
GiorgioG
These social justice warriors may seem well-meaning, but ultimately they are
parasites. Their mission is never-ending and ultimately they overreach and
this is the result.

I just want to work with smart people. I don't care what gender they associate
themselves with, what color they are, whether there's an equal distribution of
any of these characteristics in my department. I just want to do my job and
learn from smart people. Why can't it be as simple as that?

~~~
morvita
I, too, dream of a world where I can work with smart people without regard to
their race, sexuality, gender, whatever, but it is naive to think that we are
already living in that world.

Like it or not, the entire system is stacked against minorities in ways that
aren't even obvious or noticeable from a position of privilege. I work as an
engineer in an office of 120 people in the East Bay. There are three black
people working in the office. One of them is the receptionist. If we assume
that there are no racial differences in technical ability, then the
demographics of my office should roughly mirror the demographics of the
surrounding community. Oakland is 28% black (according to the 2010 census),
meaning in a fair, unbiased system we should have roughly 30-35 black people
working in the office. I am sure that no hiring manager has set out to exclude
black people from their postings, but there are centuries of history and
deeply ingrained biases that have led to a severe under-representation of
African-Americans in this industry, same with every other minority.

Until we are truly operating on a level playing field, I am 100% in favour of
scholarships based on giving under-represented minorities more opportunities.
It is not discrimination to exclude white men from these scholarships. It is
recognizing the centuries of privilege we have had and saying that we want
give other people the opportunities we have be given simply by existing.

~~~
malvosenior
Also not obvious or noticeable from a position of privilege: many, many white
men have no opportunities or privilege and thus are discriminated against for
simply being the same race and gender as a very thin slice of upperclass
society.

~~~
morvita
While it is true that many white men come from a background where, for any
number of reasons, they are not afforded the same opportunities as, say, a
white boy from Cupertino, they are still given opportunities and privilege
because they were lucky enough to be born a white man. I know this first-hand
because I grew up in a rural farming community in Vermont that was more than
95% white and poverty-stricken. Of course, not everyone in my community went
to university, but when I did, no one questioned whether I belonged there
because I was still a white man. Now that I have a doctorate and work at a big
tech company, no one questions whether I belong here either. The same can not
be said for a Hispanic or African American man (or even a white woman) who is
in my position.

~~~
malvosenior
Were you part of the poverty stricken population? My experience has been poor
white people are _not_ accepted by our professional community.

~~~
morvita
No, my mother was a teacher and my father a manager at the local hospital. So
while we weren't rich, we were definitely not poverty stricken either.

I cannot speak much to the experience of poor white people in the tech
community, but, at least anecdotally, I know of two other people I went to
high school with who also went into tech. One is still in the industry as far
as I know and the other left it a few years ago. (For reference, I am in my
early 30s)

------
alexandernst
The moment you say something that resembles even slightly to politically
incorrect, you’re suddenly off of everything...

------
tailrecursion
What I see here and elsewhere are people talking about engineering a just
society who have no knowledge or experience in engineering just societies.

------
windoze10
Yeah, I'm Asian, it's very funny to me to see a racist-to-the-core
organization pretending to be the guardians of the diversity.

They can go F themselves.

------
amyjess
He gives this as his reason for leaving:

> Since agreement [to the code of conduct] is required to take part in the
> conferences, I am no longer able to attend.

For reference, this is LLVM's code of conduct:
[https://llvm.org/docs/CodeOfConduct.html](https://llvm.org/docs/CodeOfConduct.html)

If somebody finds any of the below to be objectionable and refuses to abide by
it, I would not be comfortable attending a conference with that person or
being forced to interact them for e.g. code review purposes. His departure is
regrettable, but it is for the best that he's chosen to remove himself from
the project if he can't bring himself to abide by it.

> Be friendly and patient.

> Be welcoming. We strive to be a community that welcomes and supports people
> of all backgrounds and identities. This includes, but is not limited to
> members of any race, ethnicity, culture, national origin, colour,
> immigration status, social and economic class, educational level, sex,
> sexual orientation, gender identity and expression, age, size, family
> status, political belief, religion or lack thereof, and mental and physical
> ability.

> Be considerate. Your work will be used by other people, and you in turn will
> depend on the work of others. Any decision you take will affect users and
> colleagues, and you should take those consequences into account. Remember
> that we’re a world-wide community, so you might not be communicating in
> someone else’s primary language.

> Be respectful. Not all of us will agree all the time, but disagreement is no
> excuse for poor behavior and poor manners. We might all experience some
> frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into
> a personal attack. It’s important to remember that a community where people
> feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one. Members of the
> LLVM community should be respectful when dealing with other members as well
> as with people outside the LLVM community.

> Be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to others. Do not insult
> or put down other participants. Harassment and other exclusionary behavior
> aren’t acceptable. This includes, but is not limited to:

> Violent threats or language directed against another person.

> Discriminatory jokes and language.

> Posting sexually explicit or violent material.

> Posting (or threatening to post) other people’s personally identifying
> information (“doxing”).

> Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist terms.

> Unwelcome sexual attention.

> Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.

> In general, if someone asks you to stop, then stop. Persisting in such
> behavior after being asked to stop is considered harassment.

> When we disagree, try to understand why. Disagreements, both social and
> technical, happen all the time and LLVM is no exception. It is important
> that we resolve disagreements and differing views constructively. Remember
> that we’re different. The strength of LLVM comes from its varied community,
> people from a wide range of backgrounds. Different people have different
> perspectives on issues. Being unable to understand why someone holds a
> viewpoint doesn’t mean that they’re wrong. Don’t forget that it is human to
> err and blaming each other doesn’t get us anywhere. Instead, focus on
> helping to resolve issues and learning from mistakes.

~~~
rhapsodic
_> If somebody finds any of the below to be objectionable and refuses to abide
by it, I would not be comfortable attending a conference with that person or
being forced to interact them for e.g. code review purposes._

Not me. I would perfectly comfortable interacting with such a person, because
I'm a mature, professional adult who is not a fragile child that needs to be
treated like a kindergartner. I will go out of my to not work with the adult
babies who think the world should revolve around them, and have to politicize
every aspect of life.

This part is meaningless:

> Posting sexually explicit or violent material.

because virtually everyone would agree that's not appropriate. You don't need
a CoC for that. The entire purpose of these CoC's is to get people to do this:

> Be careful in the words that you choose

IOW, say something we don't like, and you're gone.

~~~
hojjat12000
> I will go out of my to not work with the adult babies who think the world
> should revolve around them, and have to politicize every aspect of life.

Not me. I would be perfectly comfortable interacting with such a person
because I'm a mature, professional adult who is not a fragile child that needs
to be treated like a kindergartner!

------
rhapsodic

      The community change I cannot take is how the social injustice
      movement has permeated it. When I joined llvm no one asked or cared
      about my religion or political view. We all seemed committed to just
      writing a good compiler framework.
    

This makes me sad.

~~~
chickenfries
This comment made me think that someone had disparaged them for their
political beliefs or religion, but after reading that doesn't seem to have
happened, unless they left it out for some reason, but that would be odd. In
fact, if I understand the letter correctly, the straw that broke OP's back was
this:

>
> [https://www.outreachy.org/apply/eligibility/](https://www.outreachy.org/apply/eligibility/)

To which I say... really? Ok, that's too bad that you don't want to be a
contributor anymore because there is a diversity scholarship... somehow I
don't see that as a long term problem for LLVM though.

~~~
badsectoracula
I do not know how that looks to other people but to me these rules look both
sexist and racist.

~~~
bmarquez
As someone who would qualify for the linked program, I agree. A lot of words
just to say "no Asians allowed".

~~~
ylem
Can you or the parent comment on my you think that the above program is
racist/sexist?

~~~
leereeves
Maybe because it excludes people based on their race/sex?

Helping the disadvantaged is a noble goal, but race/sex is a poor proxy for
privilege. That program would accept an African queen and exclude an Indian
untouchable.

------
peterashford
Seriously? LLVM supporting minorities means that you have to leave? I cannot
fathom how trying to be inclusive should matter to anyone - it does not
diminish you in any way to offer a hand up to others. I work in games. I have
never been to GDC or PAX while I have seen many women get funding to go there
on the basis of being a female in games. That isn't an attack on me personally
- it's an attempt to work against historical inertia. And it's great. My
industry needs to change and we are better for having a broader range of
voices heard. If this guy thinks that helping others is such a burden, then
really, I struggle to muster any sympathy for him.

~~~
ftarlao
Personally, I will surely quit from a firm adopting racist or discriminating
policy, it's not about being forced to but it's about fighting dangerous
behaviours. Furthermore the guy has not left cause the 'support to minorities
trend' but has left cause the disguised 'racist and discriminating trend' of
the LLVM project.

